Paragon 10000!

UPDATE2: Apparently, paragon starts scaling exponentially again - after level 2250. Updated chart at the bottom of this post. However, paragon 750 to 2250 are still unchanged and relatively easy to get, and provide a ridiculous benefit; and even beyond it's not super crazy scaling, though much more difficult than on PTR and pre-2.3. Despite this small bandaid fix to insanely high paragon levels, all the issues (and potential solutions) of this thread are still valid.

UPDATE: Some of the issues in this thread have been addressed as paragon continues to scale linearly after 2000. Nevertheless, paragon is still an issue and, depending on how long season 4 will last, will be an even larger issue as it was in season 3 due to the fact that XP gain will even be more inflated. The core issues are still relevant, and the solutions proposed should still work. Note that CAPPING paragon is not really a solution - better would be to either 1) let it continue to scale exponentially after 750 (best solution), or 2) remove XP gear (it's the same as MF gear in D3V), or 3) lower the benefits paragon gives after level 800 (probably the best overall and feasible solution as it also works retroactively on non-season).

Yay, catchy title! Sorry for the buzzfeed style, but at least I got your attention now. I previously made a thread about my concerns regarding paragon. There was also a nice thread on Reddit by Xabster highlighting an issue with paragon scaling. However, since yesterday we have new data as Kalmah raced to paragon 10000 on PTR using the GR glitch (live on Empyrian's stream). As it turned out, that changed the game once again - because the paragon XP charts we used so far (including Xabster in his post) were off. After reaching paragon 2000, every level requires exactly the same amount of XP - approx. 170 billion. Yep - paragon level 2000 to 2001 takes exactly as much XP as 9999 to 10000.

Now, in all those paragon threads many people said "I don't care". If that's the case, and you don't like numbers or charts then just stop reading and don't bother replying, there will be nothing in here for you. Otherwise, hear me out and read on.

This is a chart displaying the race from paragon 1 to 750, how much XP you need for the next level. This is what most people are probably experiencing, or have experienced - in all Diablo games ever: as you acquire more power, acquiring *even more* power becomes more difficult. In one word, power creep is exponential. As it has always been, and as it should be. Now... after 750 this is not the case anymore. This is what it looks like once you reach paragon 750:

The amount of XP needed to reach the next level increases only linearly - by exactly 122.4 million per level. On this level you acquire several billions of XP per hour though - in 2.3 there might be scenarios of 200-250 billion per hour in a fast group - which makes this a minuscule increase. It's not like in D2 where the next level *feels* like it's going to take longer; instead of an hour it will only take an hour and a few seconds more (not even a few minutes), so not noticeable at all. That's the reason why paragon leveling at this point has become so rewarding: after 750 you make steady progress without a noticeable slowing down effect. However, after paragon 800 every level gives you 5 more main stat - which is a noticeable increase in power and something that you can't get easily through gear upgrades on that level. That's why people are hunting paragon like crazy. And the first few have reached 2000 already. That number will increase in season 4 when paragon farming becomes even easier (shared XP, power creep will let us farm 10-15 level higher). In non-season, where half the playerbase (including me) has found its home, it's going to be even worse: from the start we will have several 2000+ paragon players, and many many more just after a few weeks. Now, why is paragon 2000 such an interesting number? The answer can be found in this chart:

After level 2000, the paragon needed does not increase - as aforementioned. It will always be 170 billion. Now, why is this an issue? Simply because you will *increase your power* - more paragon, maybe occasionally even more gear, more DPS/toughness which allows for even more XP, higher GR clears which result in higher gem ranks. Paragon leveling will be faster and faster - but the paragon XP required will be the same. When you're paragon 2000, you need probably a bit more than one hour to get one level. When you're paragon 3000, you will have 5000 more main stat (!!!), which means 5000% more damage - granted, it's additive damage; but it will still make you much much stronger and let you farm faster. What that means: the higher paragon you are, the more powerful you are, and the more paragon you will acquire. "Paragon per time" (or "power per time) will not be an exponential curve anymore in Diablo - as it has always been - but it will be a bell curve. Once you're at paragon 2000, you are definitely on the lowering right slope of the bell curve, and you will acquire more power as you go on, and you will not slow down but actually get faster in acquiring this increased power.

I hope some more people start to understand now why there's something wrong with paragon. There are several issues - and relatively "easy fixes", though they might hurt. Note, I am not crying for nerfs or anything - I am almost 1000 myself, so I can see the "benefits of the bell curve" for me as well soon. But I just don't think that running low-level Greater Rifts non-stop every day is the best that this game can offer. Here are my main issues with the paragon system and how I believe it can be fixed:

Problem 1: Paragon leveling becomes slower and slower until 750, stays at approximately a steady pace from 750 to 2000, and becomes even faster after that.

Solution: It should continue to be exponential after 750, and especially after 2000. It cannot be that the power creep is even exacerbated by a bell curve - that simply has to be a design flaw. It doesn't necessarily need to be as crazy exponential as before 750, but as players gain more power it should be harder to get *even more* power.

Problem 2: Paragon levels after 800 are more rewarding than any before.

Solution: After paragon 800, each additional level should only grant 2 main stat (instead of 5). After paragon 1000 - up until 10000 - each additional level should only grant 1 main stat. That would still mean a paragon 1000 player has 400 more main stat than a paragon 800 player, and a paragon 2000 player has 800 more. On this level, those differences matter - especially in season 4/era 4, where top-level players will all have very similar gear thanks to the cube. But at least with a bit of skillful play and luck in GR RNG you can make up for it, and aren't straight out of the competition.

Alternative solution by Skelos_bg: "Cap the bonus from stats at P800. Turn the points after P800 in a currency: With this currency the dedicated players who reach P1k, P1.5k, P2k etc can buy special cosmetic rewards, more stash space etc..."

I love this idea - I would kill for stash space. The option to have one more stash tab every 200 or 500 or 1000 levels or whatever would just sound amazing and, although I dislike paragon leveling, would have me leveling like a mad man. Plus, it wouldn't break the game for anyone else if I'm paragon 5000, but at least I don't have to re-farm all gear when I want to experiment new builds. Thanks!

Solution: Make XP gained similar in all aspects of the game. This low GR speed madness only started after the XP was changed to be multiplicative in GRs. I guess this was done because T6 was more effective for XP than GRs (I don't really remember, but I think that was the case), and it gave people a gearing choice (Hellfire Ring or Stone of Jordan? Diamond or Ruby?). However, this means that you want to run GRs only (as it currently yields about 10 times more XP!), and you want to run approximately 20-25 levels below your "real power level", as you can afford to give up DPS for XP gear on at least some characters in the group and run this at an insane speed which yields the best XP/hour. Basically, if this game's rules would apply to football, it would mean that Champions League players would have to practice 10-16 hours a day against mediocre low-league teams to become the best players. I'm not sure that would be fun for either side. The concrete solutions here would be to reverse the multiplicative bonus XP change - or even better, get rid of XP bonuses on gear (just like you did the absolutely right decision by basically removing magic find).

Thanks for reading everyone. If you want to see the complete 1-10000 XP plot, here it is:

With this currency the dedicated players who reach P1k, P1.5k, P2k etc can buy special cosmetic rewards, more stash space etc...

That is an AMAZING idea! Love it, I'm gonna edit this into my post.

Edit: And just to confirm how cancerous the official forums is, my post got downvoted there. Similarly, on Reddit the only response is basically "go season" (which I find ridiculously short-sighted, as people will reach paragon 2000+ in S4). Faith in DFans restored ;-)

Good point, botters would be the bane of this. Tho then again, balancing content for bots is something you'd never want to resort to :/

You wouldn't balance the game for bots, you would just acknowledge a problem you can't solve. There are already high-profile players that are at the top of the leaderboards that have (accidentally?) admitted botting, and every well-informed top player will confirm that botting is currently quite an increasing issue and will be rampant in 2.3 (to a point where non-botting players will fall behind). You have three choices:

1) Forfeit and let the bots win. Want to get to the top of the leaderboards? Get a bot, or even worse buy several accounts with bots. I think we don't want this, right?

2) Ban all bots. Obviously the best solution - unfortunately impossible. While popular bot software has detectable patterns and I'm quite sure we'll see a banwave at the end of this season, it's still an issue that those accounts are up there on the leaderboards for so long; many of them will even survive the banwave, as history has proven; and since there's a reset at season anyways, they can just re-start in S4 - like everyone else. Plus, in addition to bots there is much more powerful software out there, but only accessible to a very small circle of top players, and that will be undetected.

3) Therefore, a third and in my opinion is just to create a system that does de-incentivize botting. That means addressing the paragon issues highlighted in this thread, as well as the fact that you can grab bounty caches without actually contributing to the bounty clears.

Usually those issues stay in the game for one more season after they've been known. Like the trial system, which was known to be an issue after S2, but Blizzard decided to apply the fixes (the system we see now was suggested in verbatim about 8 months ago multiple times) only after letting it trouble the D3 community another season. Which means, S5 might see those issues addressed, but S4/era 4 might be the bot/paragon festival. And I'd like to avoid that at all cost (because I'm out for that season then).

Edit: And just to confirm how cancerous the official forums is, my post got downvoted there. Similarly, on Reddit the only response is basically "go season" (which I find ridiculously short-sighted, as people will reach paragon 2000+ in S4). Faith in DFans restored ;-)

Removing XP bonuses from gear would be a great change. Running speed rifts for XP gets boring so fast. You should be able to do bounties, normal rifts or greater rifts and gain roughly the same amounts of XP imo.

I think that it's good to have different activites to farm for different things - if you really want to push your paragon level you will speedfarm GRs, if you really need that one specific item, you will farm bounties, if you just want overall progression, you farm rifts, and on top of that you have conquests / uber bosses / grift pushing. No harm in that, but you shouldn't feel like shit whenever you are doing anything besides farming experience because it is just so much better than anything else.

Thanks for sharing. I get the issue, but it's not really relevant. We know top leaderboard spots are generally:

15+ hours/day

Thus, super high paragon/stats

THUD or some other exploit other people at the top are using (otherwise not at the top)

Been around enough high level players to verify the above. Casual players will never have a chance at high leaderboard placement, sorry, that's just not what the system is designed for.

I agree paragon is a bit lackluster (it's just stats, not customization), but the 1% of 1% of 1% who reach P2000+, well, they deserve it. It's a grind game after all and they're grinding it out their entire lives, for whatever reason appeals to them.

I'll be lucky to hit P800 combined after this season, and I'm perfectly ok with that.

have logged on my account more than 4000 hours played total since D3 first came out (~2500 hours on wizard alone), i missed almost 9 months of RoS because i spent most of 2014 in hospital (i played first few months after RoS launch and started again back in january this year) i have reached p760 and given up, i was consistently high ranked on the solo wizard GR leaderboard, but that has gone by the board since i have no way to compete with the botters who are p1500+, i have just started a new job and have almost no interest in the game anymore as a result of this lack of progression due to the fact i can't compete anymoreo n solo GR leaderboards, which is mainly where i was focussed, so this issue needs to be addressed asap.

wudijo: I think that it's good to have different activites to farm for different things...

Sure it is, but the question remains: To what extend one should be farming for paragon?

If they cap it at 800, nobody will farm for paragon, because at some point during the season you will reach the cap. If they cap it at X with X > 800, what is the optimal X level? Or should they cap it at all? Maybe they should just lower the main stat bonus after P800 and scale it differently? Blizz devs have to think about this, because its getting/looking ugly.

And a last thought - should a 24/7 player have an edge at GR over 8h/day or 4h/day player stats wise (from paragon)?

Edit:

MeatHeadMikhail: but the 1% of 1% of 1% who reach P2000+, well, they deserve it...

They deserve some kind of reward, thats for sure. It's just that the current reward is too much. Give them custom portraits, forum avatars, stash space or whatever the design team decides. Just don't equal pointless grinding with skill. In D2 it was the PvP and the itemization that mattered. And nobody cared about the level of the other. At the end it was who's the one collecting the ear.

I'm confused... the OP mentions that the exponential growth rate of paragon experience needed caps out at ~170 billion. Yet this is farmable via group play speed farming in sub-difficult GRs in an hour (or so). First, let me propose this: The group or groups of players who choose to farm/leech experience, usually band together for 8-12 hour blocks and constantly farm. Should this play style be rewarded? Absolutely. You argue time spent vs reward, the 4 hr a day player will always be left in the dust due to the generic loot system that D3 holds regardless of paragon. Now, to your original point, paragon ep required from 1999 to 2000 and 2000+ is the same? Good. 170 billion per paragon seems grim, but solo farming non-stop T6 rifts you cap out at approx 2.5-3 billion exp/hour. The "faster" you speak of doesn't exist, if you've achieved paragon 2000, you've most likely gotten perfect rolls in every slot. The generic power creep of paragon does exist, but if you take that away, all blizzard will be left with is the casual mediocre players that are crying about not being able to hit the leaderboards. My suggestion is as follows:

Initiate a plan at season start: Form a group of 4 friends that play at roughly the same times/lengths you do, and decide who is filling what role for the majority of the beginning of the season, and play with them, even at 4 hours a day, you'll still be way out in front of the duos and the solos... Would you really enjoy it if they complained that you were ahead of them because you have group play?

The entire dynamic of threads like these are actually relieving, that even for solo players, there is a point where paragons become a steady earning, instead of an impossible mountain to climb.

As for botting... everybody screams bot, but without proof... Yea sure maybe they did... Maybe they didn't... Maybe they just had a better plan than you and achieved goals much more quickly than you did, and that head start has kept them ahead.

Great post bagstone. Unfortunately, this issue likely wont be addressed until the expansion which would be pretty much reset everyone. They'll likely make changes to the paragon system then.

I really don't like the current implementation at all. Im p1100 on seasons and every time I log on, I feel like I'm wasting my time if I don't do speed runs. I haven't been playing much lately, and I just see myself slipping further back behind people.

The group or groups of players who choose to farm/leech experience, usually band together for 8-12 hour blocks and constantly farm. Should this play style be rewarded? Absolutely.

I agree that time should reward player, but not in way paragon does (adding a flat stat bonus), rather having time to try difficult things again and again.

After I'm geared, I want to spent my time pushing the GR record, not farming paragon and get my record in few try thanks to my paragon...

I don't quite understand... for each power creep there is a new level of difficulty, it's an infinite tower of Grift levels... So 50 was hard? Gain some paragon levels, now 55 is hard? Keep going... Now 60 is hard? Wow... progression? I realize that a straight power gain seems like "OMG that guy who spends 10 more hours a day than I do is better than me" but, face facts, it's a dungeon grind, the more time spent the better you'll be. The stash space and currency idea sounds like a great idea on paper, but again, falls too far off the radar in actuality to even be considered an idea. The streamers, the hardcore, all of it is useless without power creep. Reducing the effectiveness of Paragon points? Sure... or they could even unlock the other trees so you could put 350 points in life%. The current system how it is works as a progression tree, and as such, only the strong (or in this case those with nothing better to do) survive. Does this sort of system breed illicit behaviour? Does baseball produce juice junkies? Of course it does. Difference is that you can do it in the comfort of your own home.

Face facts people, for box value on RoS, D3 has received much more in terms of content, patches, quality of life improvements, and with even more on the way... for FREE. Quit finding things to pick apart and enjoy your journey.

Thanks for sharing. I get the issue, but it's not really relevant. We know top leaderboard spots are generally:

15+ hours/day

Thus, super high paragon/stats

THUD or some other exploit other people at the top are using (otherwise not at the top)

Been around enough high level players to verify the above. Casual players will never have a chance at high leaderboard placement, sorry, that's just not what the system is designed for.

I agree paragon is a bit lackluster (it's just stats, not customization), but the 1% of 1% of 1% who reach P2000+, well, they deserve it. It's a grind game after all and they're grinding it out their entire lives, for whatever reason appeals to them.

I'll be lucky to hit P800 combined after this season, and I'm perfectly ok with that.

I agree. I'm getting tired of seeing post of people crying about paragon and how boring it is. It's intended to be an infinite scaling reward for time investment. The power creep should be real.

Players at 2000 paragon *should* have near perfect gear and with cube introduction it will be more common.

It's interesting how many low paragon people accuse me of being jealous of high paragon players, call this "whining", or talk about solo vs group or botting issues. None of this has anything to do with this thread.

The people complaining about this are the people that *are* that high paragon. Empyrian said it on stream yesterday. Gabynator wrote it on Empyrian's Twitch chat. I think both raised this concern on the official forums/Reddit. And many other high paragon players (who might not be as popular or well-known) have expressed their dissatisfaction with the current system. Actually, RasAlgethi here in this thread is world paragon #282, on his server paragon top 100. Yet, he doesn't like the system either, see post #25.

At paragon 800, it looked fine. But once I got close to paragon 1000 I realized how stupid and boring it is. I could be happy over the 1000 more main stat I have - but I'm not. Instead I feel that the only thing I have to increase my character's power is paragon. This is supposed to be a loot-based game, but it turned into a paragon-based game.

It's interesting how many low paragon people accuse me of being jealous of high paragon players, call this "whining", or talk about solo vs group or botting issues. None of this has anything to do with this thread.

Yes it does, a lot of people complain that high paragons are achieved via malicious methods, which is tied directly to your original point.

Empyrian said it on stream yesterday. Gabynator wrote it on Empyrian's Twitch chat. I think both raised this concern on the official forums/Reddit.

Both names you brought up are known cheaters/exploiters. The other 'not so well known high-paragon players' can be dissatisfied and proclaim it to the stars.

At paragon 800, it looked fine. But once I got close to paragon 1000 I realized how stupid and boring it is. I could be happy over the 1000 more main stat I have - but I'm not. Instead I feel that the only thing I have to increase my character's power is paragon. This is supposed to be a loot-based game, but it turned into a paragon-based game.

Of course the system 'seems boring'... after 16 billion experience earned, or "every hour you play" you gain 5 primary stat... it's a power creep, not a jump.

It is a loot based game. I'd love to see the paragon 1000+ that clears 50+ in yellows.

The people that are ok with the current system are people that dont play much and/or not competitive. The problem is, you feel compelled you have to do mindless speed runs all day, every day, to keep up and be competitive. I'd rather spend my time pushing higher GRs, solo and group, but you can't do that without spending 95% of your in game time doing speed runs.