And I guess you know better than all the Orthodox who believe that Mary was, indeed, sinless.

Can we avoid the indignant, "I guess you know better than x" posts? It doesn't really get us anywhere.

Quote

St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised?

Augustine, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.

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Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.

I just don't like seeing Orthodox tradition getting trampled on and marginalized in order to pander to certain demographics of converts.

And I guess you know better than all the Orthodox who believe that Mary was, indeed, sinless.

Can we avoid the indignant, "I guess you know better than x" posts? It doesn't really get us anywhere.

Quote

St John Maximovitch was quite familiar with Orthodox liturgics, you know. He explains his thoughtful position with ample evidence from the Fathers in The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God. If his view is not acceptable in Orthodoxy, why was he canonised?

Augustine, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Isaac the Syrian, etc.

Quote

Since the sinlessness of Mary has never been dogmatically defined, I see no reason for a potential convert to assume a Roman Catholic understanding that Mary was sinless from conception when other understandings may be possible in Orthodoxy that are also consistent with our liturgics.

I also think it is not an issue to get hung up on. At least that is the advice I got from a priest when I was in a similar place. I would speak to a priest about it if necessary.

I just don't like seeing Orthodox tradition getting trampled on and marginalized in order to pander to certain demographics of converts.

How well do you really know Orthodox Tradition?

Mileage may vary based on how much the sophist making such a judgment agrees with the one being judged.

Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...

However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant. Is this a mis-translation from another language?

However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant. Is this a mis-translation from another language?

It's not a mistranslation. The same word is also used by Paul when he writes about one spouse saving the other, himself becoming all things to all men that he might save some, telling Timothy that he could save himself and his congregation, James uses the same word when talking about saving a brother and hiding a multitude of sins when you correct him, and Jude says to save other s with fear pulling them out of the fire.

Perhaps this prayer would be better understood within the context of how the word "saved" is used scripturally in these passages.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant. Is this a mis-translation from another language?

It's not a mistranslation. The same word is also used by Paul when he writes about one spouse saving the other, himself becoming all things to all men that he might save some, telling Timothy that he could save himself and his congregation, James uses the same word when talking about saving a brother and hiding a multitude of sins when you correct him, and Jude says to save other s with fear pulling them out of the fire.

Perhaps this prayer would be better understood within the context of how the word "saved" is used scripturally in these passages.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

It's only in the Greek and Antiochian churches that I've seen the practice.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

It's only in the Greek and Antiochian churches that I've seen the practice.

This is getting confusing . . . PtA, do you mean not using "Most Holy Theotokos save us"?

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

It's only in the Greek and Antiochian churches that I've seen the practice.

This is getting confusing . . . PtA, do you mean not using "Most Holy Theotokos save us"?

No, I mean the practice of inserting the "Most Holy Theotokos save us."

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Does this imply Mary is excepted from all and if so how?

We believe she is without voluntary sin. There is, however, involuntary sin. We say in prayers that we sin at every hour, and we ask for God to forgive those sins about which we know and those sins about which we don't know--our perspective is very limited, and sin clouds it. The Mother of Christ our God also needed a savior, like all of us. She is not excepted from humanity. Only Jesus Christ is completely sinless.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

So if Mary is without sin how do you reconcile this with the biblical admonition that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?

I never thought this passage of Scripture was intended to establish a mathematical "all" defined as every individual member of a set. Besides, the verse was written so that we may apply it each to him/herself, not to some other person.

In support of what Peter says here, there are many verses where "all" does not literally mean every individual ever. For instance, 2 Corinthians 3:2 - "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men." Yet not every man had or has read the epistle. Is. 24:7 - "The new wine fails, the vine languishes, All the merry-hearted sigh." There are many other examples

Also, another way to think about this is with regards to the difference between intentional and unintentional sin. I tend to think about it this way, to be honest. I think it would be perfectly reasonable, in light of various Scripture passages I've read, to believe Mary may have unintentionally sinned at some point(s) from the time she was an infant to when she fell asleep but just never intentionally sinned. Who am I to say?

This isn't something I think much about to be honest. The traditions that honor highly her are early and seem to be Apostolic. Among women, she is most blessed. She was chosen to bear the Christ child and raise him in motherly-kindness. It is healthy and good to honor her. The Scriptures do, the early, holy, Apostolic church Fathers do, and Christ honored her very highly when he started his public ministry at her request.

"All generations shall call me blessed."

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Mary is not honoured because she's Mary. She is not honoured because of her sinlessness - whatever that may mean. She is honoured because she gave birth to God through her obedience. Without the Incarnation, we would have no salvation. She is worthy of an honour that cannot be given to any other human being.

As I grow in my understanding of the Incarnation, I realize more and more the importance of her role. It did take a while to reach that point. One of the best works I have read about her is "On the Mother of God" by Jacob of Serug (non-Chalcedonian). It's a beautiful and relatively short work that I try to read at least once a year.

Amen. And thank you.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Question for anyone here: is it fair to say that Orthodox are fine with the phrase "praying to Mary"?

Why not? A prayer is a communication, a cry from the heart. When I ask her for something, I'm not asking her to ask the Lord, who will then get back to her, and she will do whatever. That would be really overthinking it and perhaps warping things. I ask my friend, my parent, my priest, my patron saint, the mother of my God, and God Himself for things; I talk with all of them. We are a family. We have intimacy.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

There are five questions that I hope people can answer all or some of them.

1. What is the Orthodox perspective on Mary?

You will get all sorts of answers from people who have not been properly catechized, unfortunately. If you want the Churches 'official' dogmatic teaching on the Theotokos, may I suggest the following online catechism?

Yes, officially you are right; their veneration of the Theotokos is called hyperdulia. But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...

However, generally Catholics ask Mary to pray for us and to intercede for us. However, in the Orthodox Church there is a prayer: Most Holy Mother of God, save us. This Orthodox prayer appears to be somewhat stronger than most Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

I have to admit, I have always been a little uncomfortable with this prayer, and I was never a Protestant. Is this a mis-translation from another language?

It is not soteriological, it is imminent. The Greek "sozon" has several meanings, just as the English "save." When Peter was sinking after walking on water, he cried to the Lord, "Kyrie, sozon me!" The Lord did not let him sink, in order to save him later when He was crucified. Likewise, when we ask Our Lady to save us, we are asking her to save us from danger, and not saying that somehow her Son's death on the Cross is ineffective.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

To "pray" originally meant to beg, cry or ask pleadingly. If you've ever seen the phrase in old plays, "I prithee," it's a contraction of "I pray thee." Many words used to have more than one meaning, and still do, only people forget about the variations and just remember the first. We should be careful not to conflate the shades of meaning, because they are not the same.

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.

That's odd, my parish is Greek, and they don't do it. I have seen this done at an Antiochian parish, however.

Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

The Slavic churches do not do this; the Greek ones do. I don't know about the Slavic churches ruled by Greeks or the Greeks ruled by Slavs, or the Georgians who are neither Slavs nor Greeks.

I have never heard that inserted in ACROD parishes. From 'Come to Me', the English prayerbook of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate. (ACROD):

"Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God. "

The response is 'To You, O Lord' or in Slavonic 'Tebi Hospodi.'

The only thing close is the refrain found in the First Antiphon: "Through the prayers of the Birth-giver of God, O Saviour, save us." This, very clearly, is merely an intercessory prayer. Salvation is through Our Saviour.

To "pray" originally meant to beg, cry or ask pleadingly. If you've ever seen the phrase in old plays, "I prithee," it's a contraction of "I pray thee." Many words used to have more than one meaning, and still do, only people forget about the variations and just remember the first. We should be careful not to conflate the shades of meaning, because they are not the same.

Agreed.

The word is still used this way in the law. The orders sought by the applicant in a case are referred to as his/her prayers.

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

A point of interest perhaps, I've been to one Orthodox church where when at the end of litanies, this prayer is inserted into the prayer where the priest (or deacon) says (to paraphrase) "Commemorating the Theotokos and all the saints, let us commit ourselves and each other and all our lives unto Christ our God" responded to with "To Thee, O Lord".

Hmmm ... I thought ^this^ was standard.

Not everyone inserts the "Most holy Theotokos save us".

sometimes we say this at vespers, but not in the DL. We use "to Thee, O Lord"

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

Personally, I find the practice distracting and a bit redundant.

Does one redundant Byzantine liturgical practice stick out amongst so many others?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Just to be clear, the "yperayian Theotoke, soson imas" / "most-holy Theotokos, save us" does not replace the "Si, Kyrie" / "to You, o Lord", but is rather sung at a (preferably) low volume while the priest or deacon intones "tis panayias, &c." / "commemorating our most-holy, &c.".

The choir/people will usually chime in when the priest or deacon gets to the word "Marias" / "Mary" and will have finished by the time the priest or deacon gets to "ke pasan tin zoin imon" / "and our whole life".

Personally, I find the practice distracting and a bit redundant.

This is how we do it, too (in English only, though). I don't find it any more distracting than singing other hymns during the priest's prayers. It's all part of the symphony of the clergy and the rest of the people each doing their part.

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...

However, I would suggest that the prayer: Most holy Mother of God save us, is quite strong even in the context as quoted above.

Priest: Commemorating our ever-holy, ever-pure, ever-blessed and glorious Lady, the Birth-giver of God and ever-Virgin Mary, together with all the Saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

But often popular Roman Catholic hyperdulia is rather indistinguishable from worship reserved for God. Orthodox leaders have also denounced Roman Catholic Marian "hypertrophy", so be careful whom you are slamming the door on...

However, I would suggest that the prayer: Most holy Mother of God save us, is quite strong even in the context as quoted above.

How about, "Most Holy Theotokos, could you consider possibly helping me out when you get around to it. I mean, I'm surrounded by enemies stronger than I am and will probably die without intervention, but don't go through any trouble on my account" ?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.