That'd odd, because I'm pretty sure my heroic ToT achievements say that you can invite me to your raid and expect me to be able to, at least, handle those fights for which I have achievements. I'm pretty sure that if I had an achievement for full clear of normal SoO (which there may be no achievement for, as was the case in ToT... fortunately, the armory displays how many kills you have in each mode, which is a fine replacement for such an achievement), that would tell you that I can handle Flex raid. I'm pretty sure my Realm First Grand Crusader achievement tells you that I perform well enough to beat everyone else on a server to a no-wipe kill.

So, yeah, I'm pretty sure achievements do tend to say something about your performance. Either that, or they say that you have enough gold to buy your way into a run. Either way, there's nothing wrong with expecting decent performance from people with decent achievements. You can always kick them from the group if they aren't performing. Get this already.

And, as is always the case, a simple armory check of a player will generally tell you enough about them to know whether they're worth inviting or not. Also, as others have said, there's the gold proving grounds achievement.

That'd odd, because I'm pretty sure my heroic ToT achievements say that you can invite me to your raid and expect me to be able to, at least, handle those fights for which I have achievements.

Note I'm directing this more in general than to you.

Who is to say that you actually played your char for those? Or maybe you bought them, even if an armory check would likely show that.

The more precise thing/issue with the raid ones though is that just because you have them doesn't mean you deserve them. All an achievement shows is you got something, it doesn't say much about HOW you got it or your performance while getting it. Maybe you really didn't contribute to the fight but others were good enough to make up. Or you were just so-so. Not bad, but not good top end either.

Now, the realm first ones are slightly different for sure, but I'd rather see one from THIS x-pack than 2 ago. A lot changes in the 4 years since Trial of the Crusader was released. Mechanics, player skill, player's life, etc.

That all said, I will definitely agree that you should expect decent performance on fights that people have the achievement for. The issue I believe that was being discussed was when they are required to get into a raid... even if it's a raid coming out in the future.

If previous puggable raids are anything to go by, you'll be asking for something like 20 ilvls above what the bosses actually drop.

Realistically, a mix of last tier and this tier LFR gear would be good. I'd say ~515 average ilvl. Those used to normal modes will find flex easy. Those used to LFR will need to pick their game up a bit.

It'll be 510+ considering that 510 is the bare minimum and people with better gear than that wanting you to be close to what they have. Honestly it would work out better running it with a guild that needs a couple extra people or so than a pure pug.

How about those coming back from taking a break from the game for whatever reason? Especially if they played at the start of MoP but then had to quit due to RL things or something?

YOu missed the part where I said 'dinged recently' didn't you? And sure, taking a break is another valid reason.

See, things like this are why I quit wow. I understand not wanting to waste time wiping on things and the like, but there just seems to be very little middle ground out there unless you're on one of the super high pop servers. Take a break for a little due to RL or something, and all of a sudden you're way more behind and can't catch up. I'm sure LFR has helped that some, but some people would rather run normals with a guild where a wipe doesn't mean reset the LFR. (Note this was my playing back early on in MoP, it may be different now though... but "LFR heroes" sure doesn't make it sound that way!)

Sure you can catch up. From the 522 neck at NEUTRAL with SPA to the other VP gear, to ToT LFR there are plenty of ways to gear. What there aren't are the cheaty 5 mans that let you skip a tier or two and catch up in a week without much effort. I get why those were liked, but it always made me feel like I'd wasted my time gearing in the previous tiers when I could have waited. Can you take time off, come back and catch up? Yes, you can. Will it require effort? yes it will. AS IT SHOULD. Why should someone who takes time off have it easier than those of us who didnt skip a tier when it comes to gearing? I put in the effort, you can too if you really want to get some gear. And 510ish is silly easy.

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Originally Posted by Zstr

blizzard put requirement to enter is 520ilvl+ so you can't get less in there
dunno what 500 -510 you talking about

I think posts like yours are written by people who actually dislike playing the game.

Yes, seriously. Read again... why should someone who takes time off have it EASIER when it comes to gearing. As easy? Sure - do the same stuff as I did to get the same gear. Hell, I don't even care if they increase drop rates from the prior tier's LFR a bit. But *easier*? What the fuck is the rationale for making it actually a better gearing strategy to skip months at a time because when you come back you'll have some super easy way to gear? Lemme, guess, you don't have an answer which is why all you did was mouth off.

FYI, I've played since late Vanilla, so, you know, the whole thing about actively disliking playing just makes you sound like an idiot.

I have been doing flex on ptr, where we were scaled to 510-520 (depending which wing).

We had zero difficulties downing the first four with 510, and the only issues we had were player IQ (holding *off* on dps for protectors, and for the third guy while we waited on corruption being reset).

It wasn't a gear check by any means. I would however refuse to bring anyone who wasn't on voice comms, because you need to make calls as you go on a few fights.

I'll do a flex run either on patch day or the day after that. I'll require 530+ ilvl.

My reasoning is that I'll easily get geared mains and alts for my run, and it's going to be unknown content for most. I don't really know what the tuning will end up being like, but I'd rather be slightly overgeared.

Technically, flex drops 540 gear, but since item upgrades are available on week one, it's really 548 gear. I wouldn't be surprised to see most flex runs requiring 540 ilvl a few weeks after patch release.

True, Proving Grounds probably does however. I don't understand how nobody has suggested this is an alternative yet. Even Blizzard has been considering using it over item level requirements for queuing.

I like that plan. If you can show a minimum level of competency at your role, you can bypass the item level requirements (but leave the ilvl in as a secondary route for those who either can't/don't want to do Proving Grounds*). The idea should be that players who are good enough can do Proving Grounds and get in that way, and those who need the gear to make up for some of their performance can meet an item-level requirement to get in so that they're at least contributing.

*not a CYA. I plan to abuse the hell out of Proving Grounds on release to get my tanking and Fury up to snuff. I'm confident in my ability as Arms since I've been mainly Arms on my warrior since late Wrath

Nothing from Blizzard, but I expect people to set ridiculously high requirements from them so much so that the vast majority of people wanting to try them out can't. I expect most PUG ones will ask for 530+ or higher. So far on my Horde server for Heroic Scenarios I've seen people asking for 510, 520, and even once 540+. I don't expect them to be accessible honestly as much as Blizzard wishes, because PUG Groups will have stupid requirements (link Garrosh Heroic or no inv).

It is going to vary a lot on overall skill level of the group but we tuned the overall Siege of Orgrimmar first wing around an expectation of around item level 520. Players who have killed some bosses in normal Throne of Thunder or who have just done a lot of heroic scenarios and upgraded their gear should be able to walk in and handle the first couple of bosses just fine.

LFR SoO most likely wont take more than 505 ilvl
flex will be somewhere between 520 and 505.