That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

Scottemojo wrote:That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

Scottemojo wrote:That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

Shot 28 is the one I was mentioning about the ref covering up Baldwin.

The miss to Zach and the defender falling covering Tate (?) on that same play, it would have been across his body running away to hit Tate in the middle but would have been sweet TD as well (or just throw to Zach).

Appreciate Hawkblogger's effort. BTW, those coaches tape surely need to have upgraded cameras taking the shots. It's like watching old black and white film in high school with the old projectors. Get it together teams, update your hardware.

Scottemojo wrote:That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

True.

But it does show that the WRs are getting open more than I thought.

Let me illustrate it like this. People have been talking at length about how Wilson missed a wide open Zach Miller and threw an incompletion to Rice. there is a still shot that makes it look he must need a seeing eye dog to help him play QB if he can't see Miller. What the still shot doesn't show is that a safety was covering Miller a split second before, right when Wilson was looking at him, and peeled off coverage as Wilson moved to the next read at the back of the endzone. Could he have made the pass to Miller? Yep. But there is a good reason the still shot is misleading about how open Miller looks.

Scottemojo wrote:That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

True.

But it does show that the WRs are getting open more than I thought.

Let me illustrate it like this. People have been talking at length about how Wilson missed a wide open Zach Miller and threw an incompletion to Rice. there is a still shot that makes it look he must need a seeing eye dog to help him play QB if he can't see Miller. What the still shot doesn't show is that a safety was covering Miller a split second before, right when Wilson was looking at him, and peeled off coverage as Wilson moved to the next read at the back of the endzone. Could he have made the pass to Miller? Yep. But there is a good reason the still shot is misleading about how open Miller looks.

I hear what you are saying...and I agree, it's not a perfect picture by any means. But there are quite a few plays other than this one where it's obvious no matter the circumstances the WRs are open in spaces.

Let me illustrate it like this. People have been talking at length about how Wilson missed a wide open Zach Miller and threw an incompletion to Rice. there is a still shot that makes it look he must need a seeing eye dog to help him play QB if he can't see Miller. What the still shot doesn't show is that a safety was covering Miller a split second before, right when Wilson was looking at him, and peeled off coverage as Wilson moved to the next read at the back of the endzone. Could he have made the pass to Miller? Yep. But there is a good reason the still shot is misleading about how open Miller looks.

drdiags wrote:It doesn't pay well for sponsors I suppose but having one of those "Knox Talks Hawks" reviews of plays on an hour show would be worth gold to me. Knox drove me crazy with that damn clicker though.

The biggest thing these still shots don't show is Wilson's reads. If the WR gets open after he's already looked his way it's not his fault necessarily. Same thing if Wilson's last read gets open right off the snap, a picture will make him look like he missed a wide open WR. What he can do is try to anticipate what the defense will give him pre-snap. But I suspect he's seen a ton of different looks since he's a rookie. He'll improve with time.

These shots don't show what the QB sees from behind the LOS. The design of Bevell's passing plays do not create quick completions. Me and my friends watched they game and my friends even noticed that almost all of the routes our receivers run are deep routes that take time to develop. Almost none of them had receivers getting open quickly on the slant, hitch, curl or crossing route. Bevell needs to start running 2 short - 2 deep, 3 short - 2 deep or 2 short - 3 deep passing plays.... Not 3 or 4 deep with a checkdown, especially when the checkdown is the last or 2nd to last option in the progression. His passing plays create easy coverage for opposing defenses. Opposing defenses figure out... Just cover deep and pressure the backfield because the quick short-intermediate passes don't exist when we're passing the ball and the checkdown's the last read, which gives the linebackers enough time to close on the checkdown if the QB extends the play.

Take a listen to Hugh Millen break down the last interception when McCoy slipped while looking at the stills that Hawkblogger provides. Everyone has been saying it wasn't Wilson's fault that McCoy slipped and he didn't deserve the INT but after listening to this breakdown and looking at the stills, Wilson clearly made the wrong read and throw. Baldwin was WIDE OPEN down the middle!!

I have to agree with Scott that still frames are not persuasive on two counts.

1. No QB in the league keeps track of all of his receivers all of the time, instead they go through a series of progressions planned ahead of time. This would be extremely valuable if it was video showing the reads Wilson was making, what coverage he was looking at, and where he should have gone with the ball. Any decent analysis does just that. We have heard a few breakdowns where Wilson made the wrong read and so it is likely a real issue, but nothing in these stills is a smoking gun.

2. Every WR in the NFL will get open after a few seconds unless they completely give up on the play. The typical NFL pocket is supposed to last for just 2.5 seconds and what matters is whether the receiver is open in the single moment when the QB is looking his way.

AgentDib wrote:I have to agree with Scott that still frames are not persuasive on two counts.

1. No QB in the league keeps track of all of his receivers all of the time, instead they go through a series of progressions planned ahead of time. This would be extremely valuable if it was video showing the reads Wilson was making, what coverage he was looking at, and where he should have gone with the ball. Any decent analysis does just that. We have heard a few breakdowns where Wilson made the wrong read and so it is likely a real issue, but nothing in these stills is a smoking gun.

2. Every WR in the NFL will get open after a few seconds unless they completely give up on the play. The typical NFL pocket is supposed to last for just 2.5 seconds and what matters is whether the receiver is open in the single moment when the QB is looking his way.

AgentDib wrote:I have to agree with Scott that still frames are not persuasive on two counts.

1. No QB in the league keeps track of all of his receivers all of the time, instead they go through a series of progressions planned ahead of time. This would be extremely valuable if it was video showing the reads Wilson was making, what coverage he was looking at, and where he should have gone with the ball. Any decent analysis does just that. We have heard a few breakdowns where Wilson made the wrong read and so it is likely a real issue, but nothing in these stills is a smoking gun.

2. Every WR in the NFL will get open after a few seconds unless they completely give up on the play. The typical NFL pocket is supposed to last for just 2.5 seconds and what matters is whether the receiver is open in the single moment when the QB is looking his way.

Listen to what Millen has to say while looking at the stills. It's pretty awesome analysis.

I had one goal when I started the article: make up my own mind whether receivers are getting open or Wilson is suffering due to no options

I consciously decided not to insert my own analysis into each play. I encourage all of you that have access to NFL Rewind to go back and watch as many of these plays as you can by yourself, and make up your own mind. Those that believe the stills are out of context, may very well be surprised by what they see. I have a full-time job, so breaking down each play with multiple shots or video just was not feasible. The stills gave me the evidence I needed (after watching the film) to make up my mind.

When I hear people defending Wilson (or any player) by pointing the finger elsewhere, I always try to come to my own conclusion instead of accepting it blindly. If people have solid evidence that indicates the receivers are the major problem in the passing game, please let me know. I welcome alternative points of view, but prefer that they are backed up with evidence. It is easy to pick apart an argument, but much harder to build one.

Thanks for reading. Truly appreciate it.

Go Hawks!Brian

Last edited by hawkblogger on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I had one goal when I started the article: make up my own mind whether receivers are getting open or Wilson is suffering due to no options

I consciously decided not to insert my own analysis into each play. I encourage all of you that have access to NFL Rewind to go back and watch as many of these plays as you can by yourself, and make up your own mind. Those that believe the stills are out of context, may very well be surprised by what they see. I have a full-time job, so breaking down each play with multiple shots or video just was not feasible. The stills gave me the evidence I needed (after watching the film) to make up my mind.

When I hear people defending Wilson (or any player) by pointing the finger elsewhere, I always try to come to my own conclusion instead of accepting it blindly.

Thanks for reading. Truly appreciate it.

Go Hawks!Brian

Thank you.

"Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)

drdiags wrote:It doesn't pay well for sponsors I suppose but having one of those "Knox Talks Hawks" reviews of plays on an hour show would be worth gold to me. Knox drove me crazy with that damn clicker though.

I had one goal when I started the article: make up my own mind whether receivers are getting open or Wilson is suffering due to no options

I consciously decided not to insert my own analysis into each play. I encourage all of you that have access to NFL Rewind to go back and watch as many of these plays as you can by yourself, and make up your own mind. Those that believe the stills are out of context, may very well be surprised by what they see. I have a full-time job, so breaking down each play with multiple shots or video just was not feasible. The stills gave me the evidence I needed (after watching the film) to make up my mind.

When I hear people defending Wilson (or any player) by pointing the finger elsewhere, I always try to come to my own conclusion instead of accepting it blindly. If people have solid evidence that indicates the receivers are the major problem in the passing game, please let me know. I welcome alternative points of view, but prefer that they are backed up with evidence. It is easy to pick apart an argument, but much harder to build one.

Thanks for reading. Truly appreciate it.

Go Hawks!Brian

It was excellent, thank you. And I couldn't agree more with your statement above.

bestfightstory wrote:Yet more evidence that nothing is ever Wilson's fault. The anti-T-Jack effect.

Nah, Wilson is making a ton of mistakes. I am just saying that we could post still frame shots from every QB and say he misses open receivers. The Green Bay game, I saw a few posted after the game that showed Rodgers missing open guys. Still frames of all 22 have little context most of the time.

Scottemojo wrote:That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

All due respect, but you don't necessarily know that. The pictures show good plays and some bad reads. Why shouldn't Miller not be accountable for that? I'm not one of the people shouting for his head, mind you.

OK, so here is the deal. No one who posts on the internet in regards to these offensive problems knows what the play calls were. No one knows who the ball is supposed to be going to or whether Wilson has the freedom to make multiple reads. Jackson was not making multiple reads and everyone wanted Charlie. Charlie wasn't making multiple reads and everyone wanted his head. Hass was not making multiple reads early in his season with Pete and everyone knew that Pete wasn't trusting Hass to do what Hass does.

Carroll has admitted that this is his fault, and all the conspiracy theorists are saying that Pete is simply taking the heat for his rookie QB. Maybe just maybe Pete is telling the truth.

I have been the only I have seen so far to bring up the fact that we have had four different line combinations in four games. This is a team sport more than any other in the fact that you need to know where your teammates are and how they are handling their assignment. Until Wilson actually has a little stability in the lineup around him, he shouldn't be thrown under the bus. He is a rookie and there will be growing pains. The lack of patience from the fans brought about the Dilfer chants and the Charlie chants, and neither of them were the right thing to do.

bestfightstory wrote:Yet more evidence that nothing is ever Wilson's fault. The anti-T-Jack effect.

Exactly.

ImTheScientist wrote:This guy is the closest thing to beast mode we will ever see. You got a glimpse of that yesterday. He was instantly my favorite player when they signed him. Give the dude a chance and don't overreact or overthink preseason. Go Hawks. Lacy will rush for 1,100 and 10TDs. Bend the knee.

BASF wrote:OK, so here is the deal. No one who posts on the internet in regards to these offensive problems knows what the play calls were. No one knows who the ball is supposed to be going to or whether Wilson has the freedom to make multiple reads. Jackson was not making multiple reads and everyone wanted Charlie. Charlie wasn't making multiple reads and everyone wanted his head. Hass was not making multiple reads early in his season with Pete and everyone knew that Pete wasn't trusting Hass to do what Hass does.

Carroll has admitted that this is his fault, and all the conspiracy theorists are saying that Pete is simply taking the heat for his rookie QB. Maybe just maybe Pete is telling the truth.

I have been the only I have seen so far to bring up the fact that we have had four different line combinations in four games. This is a team sport more than any other in the fact that you need to know where your teammates are and how they are handling their assignment. Until Wilson actually has a little stability in the lineup around him, he shouldn't be thrown under the bus. He is a rookie and there will be growing pains. The lack of patience from the fans brought about the Dilfer chants and the Charlie chants, and neither of them were the right thing to do.

Any QB worth his salt will make multiple reads, one simply does not survive in the NFL by making only one read, and then bailing on the play. Manning, Brady, and yes even guys like Andrew Luck always have their heads moving around. Not going through progressions is not a flaw in the system, it is a flaw in the player. I notice guys like Brady rarely have their first option open unless it is on a quick hit play. If a player does not learn to go through his progressions he won't succeed in the NFL, period.

I feel with Wilson his main problem is his stature in this regard. I noticed he has trouble seeing the middle of the field, and a few other areas depending on where he is in the pocket. This is something that can be migated, but only by one thing, and that is pocket presence. I would say 80% of Drew Brees's successs comes from his ability to manipulate the pocket. He is always aware of where the pass rushers, and where his blockers are. He uses this knowledge to not only clear defenders, but read defenses, and if you notice he is always moving around the pocket, but in subtle ways. If Wilson wants to be succesful in the NFL this is the only way he will do it.

Blitzer88 wrote:That is pretty interesting......the receivers are open more than I though they would or have been.

It's been that way all year.

All. Damn. Year.

ImTheScientist wrote:This guy is the closest thing to beast mode we will ever see. You got a glimpse of that yesterday. He was instantly my favorite player when they signed him. Give the dude a chance and don't overreact or overthink preseason. Go Hawks. Lacy will rush for 1,100 and 10TDs. Bend the knee.

Great read and the audio's are very good listening. Of the two I like the info that Millen presented. Moon really seemed like he was wanting to pull a Zanary and blame anyone but Wilson and Moon definitely sounds way to in love with Wilson to be unbiased.

I think the thing about Moon that has been a turn off for me lately is he doesn't even come off as a fan of the Seahawks and there has been some examples of that recently talked about in these forums. Kind of the Zanary affect again, to hung up on the player to even consider he "could" be the problem.

Millen's breakdown of how perfect Wilson will have to be (comparing him to Brees) is an eye opener as to why it may have been a better idea to let him learn from the sidelines for a little while instead of forcing him into a nearly no win situation. That being based on expectations of perfection as a rookie.

That blog proves the point that the kid is not ready for the NFL. Flynn may not be far better, but i guarantee you he would have found tose open WR's...jesus, a blind person could find them. Wilson size is an issue, even though people don't want to admit it. The kid has it all, but when your depending on throwing lanes and can't see the whole field, you are doomed to fail. No matter how good yoou are. Look at Tebow, he is a proven winner, he is a stud. But my grandmother can throw a better pass.

Scottemojo wrote:That might be the worst way to prove a point I have ever seen. Go do that with any very good QB in this league, and you will see the same thing. Still shots don't give the context of play design, correct read, or what happens to how open players look as defenders react to throws.

All due respect, but you don't necessarily know that. The pictures show good plays and some bad reads. Why shouldn't Miller not be accountable for that? I'm not one of the people shouting for his head, mind you.

Do you mean Wilson? I can't stand Hugh Millen, but he was actually having a fair moment today when he said you could watch the all 22 as see Drew Brees miss open guys all the time.

Hawkblogger is trying to disprove something people say, but don't quantify. When people say Seattle's receivers don't get open, they cannot possibly mean all the time. That would be stupid. Proving them wrong when they are overstating a comparative statement proves very little.

I want to win just as much as anybody. If Pete benches Wilson, I am fine with that. This particular blogger has been extremely vocal in his opposition to our current starter. If Flynn does become the starter, I would expect these same still shots. I am willing to go out on a limb right now and say they would look very similar.

kmedic wrote:Take a listen to Hugh Millen break down the last interception when McCoy slipped while looking at the stills that Hawkblogger provides. Everyone has been saying it wasn't Wilson's fault that McCoy slipped and he didn't deserve the INT but after listening to this breakdown and looking at the stills, Wilson clearly made the wrong read and throw. Baldwin was WIDE OPEN down the middle!!

A picture says 1000 words. This Pic taken at camp shows the difference in height to 6-2 Flynn 6-2 Jackson 5-10 5/8 Wilson. Flynn is a bit behind and Jackson a bit in front. Somewhere between is what Wilson gives up to a "short" 6-2 QB.

So, you take Carrolls command to stay and step up into pocket and now you have a short QB even closer to the obstacle blocking his vision with less lateral movement possible to find the lane. This is not good.

This is a big reason Wilson needs to slide, and bails often. It worked great for him in college and he was very successful. You restrict his movement...and everything changes. They need to roll him more, play action to freeze more, and turn him loose if they want the most from him IMO.

Verndog wrote:A picture says 1000 words. This Pic taken at camp shows the difference in height to 6-2 Flynn 6-2 Jackson 5-10 5/8 Wilson. Flynn is a bit behind and Jackson a bit in front. Somewhere between is what Wilson gives up to a "short" 6-2 QB.

So, you take Carrolls command to stay and step up into pocket and now you have a short QB even closer to the obstacle blocking his vision with less lateral movement possible to find the lane. This is not good.

This is a big reason Wilson needs to slide, and bails often. It worked great for him in college and he was very successful. You restrict his movement...and everything changes. They need to roll him more, play action to freeze more, and turn him loose if they want the most from him IMO.

It also highlights another huge problem - Carroll's damn QB circus and the lack of reps Wilson got with his WRs.

Spin Doctor wrote:I feel with Wilson his main problem is his stature in this regard. I noticed he has trouble seeing the middle of the field, and a few other areas depending on where he is in the pocket. This is something that can be migated, but only by one thing, and that is pocket presence. I would say 80% of Drew Brees's successs comes from his ability to manipulate the pocket. He is always aware of where the pass rushers, and where his blockers are. He uses this knowledge to not only clear defenders, but read defenses, and if you notice he is always moving around the pocket, but in subtle ways. If Wilson wants to be succesful in the NFL this is the only way he will do it.

Umm, nope. Brees will admit he cant see 50% of what's going on. His receivers know this and run to spots, like spots within a few inches.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, but it is completely inaccurate to say I have been vocal in my opposition to Russell Wilson. I have been massively vocal of in my opposition of how the quarterback situation was handled.

Thanks for checking in Hawkblogger! Unfortunately there will be those that remember only what serves them. I personally have read most of your posts over the last several months and agree you have been very supportive of Wilson...once the shock wore off.

Keep up the great work. Really liked your "improved" team power ranking formula, pretty creative.