Pope Francis: 'I believe in God, not in a Catholic God'

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October 5, 2013

Pope Francis has again given a startlingly candid interview reinforcing his vision of a Catholic Church that engages the world and helps the poor, rather than pursues culture wars, and one “that is not just top-down but also horizontal.”

The pope's conversation with Eugenio Scalfari, an atheist and editor of the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, took place at the pope's residence in the Vatican guesthouse Sept. 24 and was published Tuesday.

It came two weeks after publication of the pope's interview with a Jesuit journalist in which Francis said the church was “obsessed” with a few moral issues, such as abortion and homosexuality, and needed an “attitude” adjustment if it hopes to strike a “new balance” in its approach to the wider world.

Issues of sex and gender were absent from the newest exchange, although the pontiff asked Scalfari to return again so they could “discuss the role of women in the church. Remember that the church is feminine.”

Instead, the pope and Scalfari focused on two main themes that could have a revolutionary impact on the papacy and Catholicism: the need for the church to reject its own defensive and even sinful practices and the imperative to listen and learn from others, including nonbelievers such as Scalfari.

“We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us,” Francis said.

“I believe in God, not in a Catholic God; there is no Catholic God. There is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation,” he said. Such phrases are likely to further upset traditionalists flummoxed and often infuriated by Francis' willingness to upend the church's long-standing customs.

“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place,” he said.

Francis also made clear that a chief evil in the church was the “narcissism” of its leaders and the command-and-control way of operating from Rome, even calling the papal court a “leprosy of the papacy.”

It is likely no coincidence that the latest remarks came just as Francis convened the first meeting of his new council of eight cardinals, often called the “Gang of Eight,” whom he appointed from beyond Rome to advise him on revamping the crisis-plagued Vatican government. That was a priority for the cardinals who elected him in March.

“This is the beginning of a church with an organization that is not just top-down but also horizontal,” Francis said, using words that may be the organizing principle for the Gang of Eight, which began three days of closed-door meetings Tuesday.

Francis said the “most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old,” and he castigated the “savage” economic system that creates “intolerable inequalities.”

He added that he trusted Catholics in political life to “carry the values of their religion within them” and to exercise them without undue interference from church leaders — an approach that could signal a divergence from the political activism of the U.S. hierarchy in recent years.