Interesting statement by conservative columnist David Frum caught my eye, he says that conservatives are no longer a political movement, they have become instead what he calls a "disaffected class", much like the people who go to tent rivals and such. It is his reasoning for the rise of illogical apoclyptic morons like Glenn Beck as their new leaders, philosophical leadership has evaporated, replaced by some psuedo-populism that simply allows those who know how to exploit such things to make a lot of money, while in the end insuring the continual downward slide of the conservative movement as a political force. It has become a movement of prayer cloths and divine miracles where the cripple get up and walk [Sara Palin will be president!] , and is otherwise simply spent as a political force. I have never seen them in such disarray. This week's circus of the "non-budget budget" and the continuing bizarre behavior of Michael Steele, the GOP national chairman are indictative of their general state: chaos.

We see it at work here on this forum. So called "conservatives" here post thread after thread attacking [the devil] incessantly, yet never seem to have a thread about any alternative. Past miracles are invoked, and the tent show preacher passed the hat over at Fox News and on the Limbaugh show. Meanwhile, those who used to form the intelligensia of the Right are being pushed further and further away. You read Buckley, Frum, Brock and you think you are read the Huffington Post nowadays. The DailyBeast.com, what was supposed to be a conservative intelligensia blog, has become one of my favorite reads, as they attack Palin and Gingrich as much as they do Obama, (my favorite Chris Buckley quote: "One of the main figures of the Republican Party is a fellow named "Joe the Plumber", who seems to be running on a platform that what this country needs is a good plungering, is emblematic of the intellectual collapse of the GOP"). Has the "conservative" movement finally split in two, into the RWNJ (and increasingly neo-fascist) set lead by the talk show hosts, and into a McCain faction of disaffected intelligentsia? This could be the doom of the GOP, many of them are wondering that exact point out loud these days.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

The GOP has outlived its usefulness. So has the DNC, but it'll take about another 4 years or so for them to figure that out. I see the same tiny fissures forming in their foundation that we saw with BushCo early on. Both of them need to go away - people need to distrust Republicans and Democrats equally, so that the allure for candidates of being tied to a party disappears completely.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

The Democrats have always been a party of diverse groups. That has been the nature of the beast for decades. So those fissures you are seeing are just the normal groups doing their thing. It is what happens when the party is very diverse. There is never any way to make everyone happy so they don't ever try that.

It is one of the reasons you can see a firm voting block coming from the right much easier than one from the left and that has always been the case.

My question to the original thread subject, which conservative movement? There are four in play if you count the true Conservatives, the Bush NeoConservatives, the NeoNeoConservatives who can't get away from Bush quick enough and the Libertarians who sorta, kinda fall in that Conservative category but not quite.

McBear, Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

Those fissures tend to become amplified when absolute power is obtained. And, what about the Libertarians do you find to be less than conservative?

I agree with the OP's premise. If the GOP can't offer a viable alternative to things, they need to stop making noise. I still have hopes they'll work it out.

It's not that I find Libertarians to be less than Conservative it is that I have found Conservative to be a morph of it's previous concept. Once Conservatives began to try and implement their personal social/moral issues into the Conservative agenda and try and make it part of the National Agenda they moved from Conservative values. Once agencies like DHS became the largest in the country, Conservatives moved from their core principles and once Conservatives started using the Military as a foreign policy tool they again moved from their original intent.

It's not that I find Libertarians to be less than Conservative it is that I have found Conservative to be a morph of it's previous concept. Once Conservatives began to try and implement their personal social/moral issues into the Conservative agenda and try and make it part of the National Agenda they moved from Conservative values. Once agencies like DHS became the largest in the country, Conservatives moved from their core principles and once Conservatives started using the Military as a foreign policy tool they again moved from their original intent.

One cannot be both a social and true conservative, since the agenda of social conservatism flies directly in the face of true conservatism. Social conservatives represent a genuine threat to true conservatives. It is one thing to oppose values, it is quite another to shill them. If the conservative movement dies, it will be because Republicans killed it.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon