//Those who reject God's 10 commandments do not know him plain and simple. ---Francis on 9/6/11

What you are saying is that all those who are born spiritually in Christ and do not observe the OT sabbath simply do not know him.

That in effect, you are saying that the testimonies of others of Christ in their lives, is a lie, that they have simply deceited themselves.

I think Trav is correct in that I have spent too much time studying Adventism and should have realized by now that I am not dealing with someone that adheres to that "faith once and for all delivered to the saints." Jude 3.

Why the NIV did not use the divine name in its translation (some 7,000 times-

"Here is why we did not [use `Jehovah' in the NIV]: You are right that Jehovah is a distinctive name for God and ideally we should have used it...

...we put 2 1/4 million dollars into this translation......We are the victims of 350 years of the King James tradition. It is far better to get two million to read it - that is how many have bought it to date [1979] - and to follow the King James, than to have two thousand buy it and have the correct translation of Yahweh...

...It was a hard decision, and many of our translators agree with you." -

SDA does not lead people to the law rather than christ. That is yet another of LEEJ lies.The LAW points out SIN. SDA lead people to Jesus who is able to deliever all from sin. What LEEJ is teaching is salvation without repentance It appears to me that LEEJ wants to teach people that they will be saved WITHOUT REPENTANCE from sin, and claiming christ they can continue in their sin

But SDA does not teach that we should continue in sin that grace may abound GOD FORBID, we teach REPENTANCE from sin, CONFESSION of SIN, and forgivness and reconciliation by THE BLOOD OF JESUS

LEEJ teaching has been rebuked in 1 corithians 5 where a young man thought that as a christian he was free to do as he will. The whole church was rebuked.

//I challenge any one here to find ONE POST where anyone says that they keep the 10 commandments to be saved

Saved? do you mean saved eternally or perhaps only temporarily?

In Adventism, one can be saved but then lose salvation if the commandments are not observed. And that is in essense, their Investigative Judgment that one must acquire a certain level of holiness by observng the commandments to merit life in the eternal state.

I am thankful that God still has a remnant of true believers in the Adventist church that do not believe in Ellen White - however, there may be another purge like there was in the 1980's.

//You cannot lead anyone to salvation with logic. ...GOD does the drawing, and provides the way.... not Leej.

I could not agree more, however, the church (not trav)is the vehicle God uses to proclaim His word that one may believe.

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, ...

And Yes God does the drawing to believe...

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I challenge any one here to find ONE POST where anyone says that they keep the 10 commandments to be saved... ---Francis on 9/6/11

Thankfully now there is no denomination of men for me to have to defend or promo. I hope i can meet a Francis and discourse or honor GOD's redeemer. Or a Leej, when she honors the prophets eventually. Leej has wasted a lot of time on studying SDA's. Someone has wasted a lot of time on her denom...disecting it i'm sure.I'll let you guys work out the flaws and avoid the denom, not the worker.1Cor 9:20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews, to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law,

Give ROB and MARKV proof that you are not a liar, give some article that supports your statements:1: regretfully the center of their religion is the OT Sabbath, not Christ.-leej on 9/6/11 2: Adventist like the Jewish Pharisees have created a complex system of soteriology of works.-leej on 9/5/11 3: Your Bible has to be interpreted by olde Ellen White-leej on 9/5/11 4: In other words, there can be condemnation for those in Christ and eternal salvation is not a free gift to those who are born spiritually in Christ.-leej on 9/3/11 5: SDA Investigative judgment holds that there will be one and only one judgment for the entire human race and that it will be a judgment based on works only. In other words,--leej on 9/3/11

INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT, much like TRINITY, and RAPTURE are phrases NOT found in scripture. Yet the actions or events are in scripture.It is called the investigative judgment because it is done by " investigating" that which has been recorded in books.

I beheld, till thrones were placed, and One that was Ancient of Days did sit: His raiment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool, His throne was fiery flames, and the wheels thereof burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the JUDGMENT WAS SET AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED."

Francis //At issue as always is THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT. Those who reject God's 10 commandments do not know him plain and simple.

Yes, the Pharisees Jesus had to deal with were very dedicated commandment keepers.

If the 10 commandments are the center of your belief all you really have is an ethical system devoid of God's Spirit.

Those born according to the promise given to Abraham are those who will inherit the Kingdom, not those born of the flesh. Ever read Galatians 4 about Hagar from Mt. Sinai where the 10 commandments were given to Israel?

Sorry Frances but you impress me to be much like the unbelieving Jews who attempted to establish their own righteousness by which they would merit eternal life. Romans 9:30f

I challenge any one here to find ONE POST where anyone says that they keep the 10 commandments to be savedThere is not one thing in this verse that says we are saved by keeping the ten commandments.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If we keep the last 6/10 then we show love to our neighbour.If we keep the first 4/10 then we show love to God.

At issue as always is THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT. Those who reject God's 10 commandments do not know him plain and simple

sorry leej you are WRONG AGAIN LOL LOL.The only doctrine UNIQUE to SDA is the sanctuary doctrine.It was from the Seventh day baptist that the seventh day adventist learned about the sabbath. The church started after the milarite movement which was focused on guess what: THE SEECOND COMING OF CHRIST. NOT THE SABBATH or TEN COMMANDMENTS

I already know that you are a liar, So now prove to ROB that you are not liar POST any article where the SDA church states that christ is not the centre

//Rob, your correct. Leej has a lot of knowledge concerning what is taught in the SDA.

I was practically raised as a SDA, and one of my brother married into an SDA family. They did inspire me to ask questions, regretfully the center of their religion is the OT Sabbath, not Christ.

I have an extensive library on Adventism and other cults and have specialized in apologetic debates over the years. I doubt if there is anything about Adventism that I have not studied.

Francis is a frustrated type of individual that really has not thought through much of what his religion has taught him. He apparently is totally unaware of the controversies that have ocurred in Adventism over the years concerning their distinctive doctrines.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

BUT in accordance to the doctrine of Clarity of Scripture, the PLAIN things written are easy to understand and sufficient for our salvation & walk.

If the Word tells us that we have been saved by grace thru faith not of ourselves but as God's free gift, not by works, then we should believe that, instead of tying ourselves to a religion that emphasized a judgment of works after our death for our eternal salvation.

2 of 2As Christians are we to accept that people can change the Word of God or should we point out error and expose it? With all the confusion of different versions, are people to believe that Gods Word has been preserved as he promised it would be? Why did early Christians and the Reformers reject the minority text? The Textus Receptus is the called the majority text for good reason because its based on more than 5,000 Greek manuscripts. The Textus Receptus also agrees with the vast majority of scripture references made by the early church fathers in their writings.

Rob, your correct. Leej has a lot of knowledge concerning what is taught in the SDA. I've not heard anyone speak or be able to debate the doctrines concerning SDA's as he has. I'm sure he is a pain to many here, but what he says is true and can be check through Scripture. I have learned a lot from him. Things I was not aware of before I came online. What is hard for all of us to do is admit error. And so we fight for what we are taught. MacArthur called it, "Theological Bias" Something taught wrong, that they have held for many years, and will not admit error no matter what Truth is presented. I also admit doing the same before. My wife also. Admitting error is hard especially when you hold something so dear and close to you.

Why do you think we must obey the 10 commandments when our salvation is in Christ, not in our own merits? ---leej on 9/4/11

Hey, won't be long you'll get to accuse Francis of his legality's before GOD. Take your notes.

1 John 2:4He that saith, I know him, keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.(Her)Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and faith of Jesus.Heb 10:16This covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,

I myself use the KJV more than any other. The reason is because that is what I grew up using. I have many friends who use NKJV and other translations. I own at least four different translation, and I use biblegatway a lot to compare translations

The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (often called the "perspicuity of Scripture") teaches that "the meanings of the text can be clear to the ordinary reader, that God uses the text of the Bible to communicate His person and will."

The witness of the Church throughout the ages is that ordinary people, who approach it in faith and humility, will be able to understand what the Bible is getting at, even if they meet with particular points of difficulty here and there.

It is plain in scripture that one is saved by grace thru faith, not by works. Adventist like the Jewish Pharisees have created a complex system of soteriology of works.

whatever translation you choose to use, just read the forward or preface very carefuly. See what the author or editors say about that translation. Example: Is it a word for word translation, or a phrase by phrase. It it translated to give the general meaning of the verse, or to give a doctrinal analysis.Knowing what the editors and authors intend will halp a great deal. It is always best to use more than one translation, and keep in mind that the doctrines of God never changes. If a translation directly suggests a change in doctrine then it is suspect.

//Sorry leej, you just do not know enough about the bible or SDA teaching for us to continue this discussion, and you are a proven liar, so I will no longer waste time with you on this subject ----- Yes, as much as a liar as Jesus was when He stated that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Sorry child of Hagar but salvation according to scripture is a gift, not something one has to merit. Gal. 4

Your Bible has to be interpreted by olde Ellen White who was kicked out of a church that preached the gospel.

As for Bible knowledge that has already been measured by the grades I received from my theology teachers. I can easily see that you cannot compete and rightfully should toss in the towel.

---leej on 9/4/11 Sorry leej, you just do not know enough about the bible or SDA teaching for us to continue this discussion, and you are a proven liar, so I will no longer waste time with you on this subject

According to Scripture the ONLY judgment the Christian will face is a judgment on his works, NOT on his eternal salvation.

1 Cor. 3:13-15 Every mans work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is. If any mans work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Eternal salvation is by grace alone, but your IJ theory is of works salvation. Sorry but our Lord is not fratricidal in that He will kill His children born of His Spirit.

The investigative judgment is a unique SDA doctrine, which asserts that a divine judgment of professed Christians has been in progress since 1844.

This teaching was the focus of controversy within the denomination in 1980, when Adventist theologian Desmond Ford was dismissed by the church after openly criticizing the doctrine.

While the Adventist mainstream believe in the doctrine and the church has reaffirmed its basic position on the doctrine after the purge in the 1980's, some of those within the church's more progressive wing continue to be critical of the teaching. It is the main reason some SDA pastors have left the Adventist ministry.

1 of 2 When one is born of the Spirit of God, you will never be confused regardless of the numerous translations of Scriptures that's available out there. ---christan on 9/3/11

I agree with your post to a point, christian. I believe the Spirit has showed me that those bible versions that for example diminish or remove the divinity of Jesus Christ are based on corrupt manuscripts. I think its confusing when we say we believe one thing and then use a bible that contradicts that, especially when were trying to witness to non-believers, some of whom know the differences. We know Gods word says hes not the author of confusion, so then who is?

cluny, I always refute your falsehood, and because you choose to refuse the refute does not make the manifested refute nonmanifested nor noneffective: for I already have, and I do, and I will continue to refute your falsehood.

It is my understanding that the SDA Investigative judgment holds that there will be one and only one judgment for the entire human race and that it will be a judgment based on works only. ---leej on 9/3/11

As a SDA, let me inform you that your understanding is wrong.

We believe that there are THREE judgments1: Before Jesus returns ( investigative)( Daniel 7:22)Revelation 22:11-14 2: One with the saints before the second resurrection ( revelation 20 V4) and 3: The great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11)

LEEJ when you do NOT UNDERSTAND, it may be best to ASK rather than accuse leave the accusation to THE ACCUSER OK? Just ask I will be more than happy to answer

When one is born of the Spirit of God, you will never be confused regardless of the numerous translations of Scriptures that's available out there. There may be errors or omissions as the moderator pointed out, but when the Spirit of God resides in the Christian, Jesus declared -

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13

Question then becomes, are you being lead by the Spirit of Truth or by yourself? If it's by the latter than you will indeed really have a big problem.

Anything past King James is farther away with some scriptures totally dropped that are not Politically correct. Usually about Israel. ---Trav on 9/3/11

Even worse than that the other versions try to remove the diety of Christ. Major passages have been altered or completely removed! The minority texts may be older, but that doesn't mean better. In David O'Fuller's book, Which Bible, in reference to Dean Burgon "Thus the fact that B and Aleph are so old is a point against them, not something in their favour.It shows that the Church rejected them and did not read them. Otherwise they would have worn out and disappeared through much reading".

It is my understanding that the SDA Investigative judgment holds that there will be one and only one judgment for the entire human race and that it will be a judgment based on works only. In other words, there can be condemnation for those in Christ and eternal salvation is not a free gift to those who are born spiritually in Christ.

did you know the niv leaves Christ out 25 times, Lord out 352 times, Jesus out 292 times, God out 468 times, God out 2 times devils out 80 times, hell out 40 times, heaven out 160 times, blood out 41 times. This only scratches the surface. Even the new king james version leaves Christ out 1 time, Lord out 66 times, Jesus out 2 times, God out 51 times, heaven out 50 times, hell out 22 times. I think I will just stick with the good old King James Bible.

Because these translations translate the same words in the same manner, the same doctrine is concluded.The better translations place some word in italics, and some sentences in paranthesis to show that these words were added in by the translators. This is especially so in KJV.It is recemmended that a multitude of translations be used, to help the reader capture the meaning of some hard to understand passages.

--leej on 9/2/11 Can you explain to us your understanding of INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT?

SDA teaching of investigative judgment is simple: Do you not believe that there is a judment made USING BOOKS?Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the JUDGMENT WAS SET, and the BOOKS WERE OPENED.

Daniel 7:26 But the JUDGMENT SHALL SIT, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Revelation 20: the BOOKS WERE OPENED: and another BOOK WAS OPENED, and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were WRITTEN IN THOSE BOOKS, according to their works.

Cluny, If you study ancient history, you will find that during the time of Christ amber was commonly called chruson which is the greek word for gold. This chruson was a resin exuded from the spruce tree. The botanical name is Picea sitchensis. "Picea" is from the Greek pissa, meaning "pitch", which refers to the amber pitch produced by the tree and cones. You will find supporting evidence for amber commonly called gold during the time of Christ on numerous websites, as pippinbass dot com, then click [Education]- [All About Amber], then under the sub heading "Historical Amber Trade & Amber Route" click "Read More..."

Personally I use King James because it links to concordances.You are correct that Geneva is a more pure translation. Anything past King James is farther away with some scriptures totally dropped that are not Politically correct. Usually about Israel. Showing the intent of the translators digging their own graves. But, then, what is not included in this case is it's own witness for us and against them.

Biblical Christianity never known of the Adventist doctrine you call the Investigative Judgment.

And we really do not believe as you do, that Adventists were given any special annointing from God to introduce doctrine that was unheard in the church for 18 centuries.

Jude 3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Even if some translations make "questionable" choices in translating some words or passages, or use some "questionable" manuscripts, the fact remains they teach the same things in most cases. The differences are small, and typically not in areas that are doctrinally important.

When the Bible teaches important things, it comes out and says them, often many times. It does not just mention them quickly in passing, on the turn of a phrase or a word, and hope we notice them as we're reading along. (One example of this is "baptism for the dead" Mormons pull out of a chance comment by Paul that was talking about something else entirely - something never mentioned anywhere else in any other context).

francis//regardless of which translation you use, the BIBLICAL METHOD of study stays THE SAME:Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little- you will end up with the same doctrine.

And that is why Adventists in cherry picking the OT and the New end up with a much different doctrine than that of Biblical Christianity.

Cluny, in comparative analysis and contextual criticism, when you match line upon line, and word upon word, you will find a more accurate adherence to the original hebrew and greek scriptures in the Geneva Bible than you will find in other English renditions. I have been translating for a very long time and the newer so-called "Holy Bibles" are not even scripture. If you compare the words of modern bibles with the words of the original scriptures you would see two completely different books written by two completely different authors, the one is from God and the other is not from God. To many this may not matter, but to those of us whom know him and are his, it is a very big deal to cherish "His" word and Not man's word.

James, the old testament patriarchs before Christ spoke and used the Hebrew, and the English translation of this hebrew came after Christ in 1560 A.D. so it was not possible nor necessary for the old testmanet hebrews to have and speak english. So the olbvious answer to your question is No the old testament hebrew speaking patriarchs did not use the 1560 A.D. English translation of the hebrew srcriptures, neither did they use the Greek New Testament which also was not written at that time.

Its only a major issue when people think we must understand every single scripture perfectly before we can be "saved".

The only thing that matters is who we believe Christ is and if we've started a relationship with Him.

Perfect doctrine doesnt get you into heaven. I would not be surprised at all for God to look at each and every one of us and say "All that time you spent bickering over every litle detail of my word, using it as a means to condemn one another and you were ALL wrong! It was about my Son!"

Cluny, In my church I would stock each row of pews with a copies of it. When his pure unadulterated word gets hold of you- Wow! unspeakable things happen and things change and things get converted from the natural to the heavenly. I give my whole life up for the word, for I know that I am alive and completely changed because of his word, his dunamis word which is not of this world but comes from the Creator Almighty on high. O' Lord how majestic is your word in all the earth. You speak and the earth flourishes, you speak again and the dead are risen. My heart and my soul cries out for the living God, my God in whom I trust all the days of my life and for ever more. Hallelujah Lord Jesus! Praise your holy Name, for you are worthy to be praised.

If I had a church each member in the church would read from the same one translation, and there would not be allowed any other new fandangled unholy bibles in the church, not one. We all would be fed from the same one Holy fountain.

Trav, I was thinking of a particular person who posts here who has condemned himself by his own words.

Glory to Jesus Christ! ---Cluny on 9/1/11

Think i know who you mean, but being unblemished and righteous surely the lord will forgive me in my ignorance,until I'm not. Or whip me with many stripes before condemning.Surely others? perhaps they offer opportunity to share with many...in an objective sort of way. Acts 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

You may be the man to point out the ignorance....who am I to say? How would an ignorant man be made aware otherwise? The Lord of course, if his will.

Satan tried many times to gather all the Holy Bibles across the land and burn them, and he even moved men to declare it sedition and against the law to own the Bible, and he had people arrested and persecuted: but inspite of this perverted dictate, someone, a Christian somewhere always had one hidden away in their house. The enemy learned that he could not get rid of The Word nor ban it from the land, so he did the next best thing, he said in his heart, "I will tell man to write their own bibles, replacing God's spoken word with their own NonGod words, and mistitle their books "Holy Bible", and then spread these unholy and dead works throughout the churches: who knows, it may be that I will even deceive the very elect."

EVERY translation, including the Geneva and KJV, are the products of human skill, and one thing the Bible in any translation makes clear is that mere mortals have never done anything and gotten it 100% right.

With those caveats, there are only three translations I know of I would absolutely reject: New World [mis] Translation, Living Bible, and Good News Bible.

When it gets to the NT, it depends on whether you prefer the Alexandrian/Critical text or the Received Text. The only two English versions based on the RT are the KJV and NKJV.

My advice - read 2 Pet 2:9 in your Bible version. If it has people being punished BEFORE they've had a fair trial, toss out that version and try another until you find one that has the unjust reserved the unto the day of judgment to be punished. (Hint: the KJV is the only one with a just God.)

For the new beliver I would suggest reading the NIV or NLT. However, for the majority of people including people on this blog your "level of knowledge is much greater than your level of obedience" (John Maxwell) including me. Therefore it does not matter what translation you are reading because God through the HS will reveal to you what is most important for correction, rebuking, and knowledge. If you have been on this blog for more than a few month you will realize this question gets asked about once a month. You will not change someone's mind and will take focus off of real issues like people going to hell. This ends my rant.

Moderator - Major issue since many of the translations have errors or omissions

which ones? i compare always 4 translations in Dutch and i read 4 different versions in English, i read also 4 versions in french. i do this by putting them next to eachother, and however they they are from different denominal backgrounds, RCC, Anglic. Evang. Prot. i find that in doctrine none realy contradict(except the known falsified bibles of certain devious cults). i think that certain elements in anglophonian countries do not agree with progress rather.

ABOUT ENOCH, since the posters of the other blogg are bound to come here. the book of ENOCH was most probably NOT written by the ENOCH of Genesis, but about 1st or 2nd century BC. by someone who took Enoch as a pseudonym (quite common in those days for writters)