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What, you mean Route 17/18?
I explored that area once I beat the game and I'm really disappointed it wasn't in the main game. Plasma could've had a hideout in the P2 Lab or something. But that was definitely a Water route done right.

I was actually referring to the Hoenn's long water routes (105-109 and 124-134). Although, 132-134 had the rapids, so they weren't quite as bad.

Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat

That's where they need to start sprinkling more interesting stuff (like islands and dive spots) to keep the longer water routes from getting too boring. I agree with you that long stretches of water can get tedious (especially in Hoenn's case), but if they divide it up into smaller chunks with several "rest spots" along the way, it's probably better.

Yeah, basically this. The water routes just need more points of interest.

Well if you could redesign any water route(s) in Unova, which ones would you change and what changes would you make?

I don't really think many of Unova's water routes need redesigning. None of them are particularly long or boring, that's more of a problem with other regions. Maybe Rt. 21, which is slightly too mazelike for my liking. And not because it's confusing, moreso because the path snakes all around the route before you reach Seaside Cave.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

I don't really think many of Unova's water routes need redesigning. None of them are particularly long or boring, that's more of a problem with other regions. Maybe Rt. 21, which is slightly too mazelike for my liking. And not because it's confusing, moreso because the path snakes all around the route before you reach Seaside Cave.

The first thing I thought of when I went down Rt.21 was the Whirl Islands and how much I hated their design :/

I didn't think the water routes connecting places like Cianwood and Olivine were too confusing. The areas connecting Lilicove, Sootopolis, Mossdeep, and the like were (relatively) simple if you went in a relatively straight path. I only felt lost when I tried to explore for items/trainers. I think that's more a function of the lack of "landmarks" at sea as opposed to during land travel.

That whole area in general. I think that's where my disliking for water routes began

I don't blame you there. Most of the more open water routes tend to be harder to navigate.

Originally Posted by Ememew

I didn't think the water routes connecting places like Cianwood and Olivine were too confusing. The areas connecting Lilicove, Sootopolis, Mossdeep, and the like were (relatively) simple if you went in a relatively straight path. I only felt lost when I tried to explore for items/trainers. I think that's more a function of the lack of "landmarks" at sea as opposed to during land travel.

Yeah, but that's exactly the problem, and one of the major reasons water routes need lots of landmarks in general. I like water routes, but when they're too open and empty they get confusing and annoying to explore.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

I don't really think many of Unova's water routes need redesigning. None of them are particularly long or boring, that's more of a problem with other regions. Maybe Rt. 21, which is slightly too mazelike for my liking. And not because it's confusing, moreso because the path snakes all around the route before you reach Seaside Cave.

More of a landmark than a route, but I'd change Seaside Cave to make it far more... substantial. As far as I remember, I spent about two entire minutes exploring the place then I moved on. As much as I think Unova's got enough cave locations anyway, I wish that they did something unique with it to make it stand out.

Was that really it? Will wondered. Was that what they were all doing, looking for someone less different? Was that what he was doing? Rachel was dynamic and thoughtful and focused and caring and different in more ways than he could count, but the whole point of Rachel, as far as Will was concerned, was that she wasn't him. There was a flaw in Katrina's logic, then. This thing about looking for someone less different ... It only really worked, he realised, if you were convinced that being you wasn't so bad in the first place.

I don't blame you there. Most of the more open water routes tend to be harder to navigate..

It's not even the fact they are harder to navigate. I just think it takes forever to get from point A to point B when you are trying to scale a vast water area littered w/ trainers and rocks as fast as you can because you don't want to deal with it.
It's more the frustration that I want to get out of there and get it over with but I have to get it done then so I don't have to get it done later.
But GF hates me -___- Though they made me feel better about them w/ BW/BW2 because they didn't really have any that you HAD to travel.

More of a landmark than a route, but I'd change Seaside Cave to make it far more... substantial. As far as I remember, I spent about two entire minutes exploring the place then I moved on. As much as I think Unova's got enough cave locations anyway, I wish that they did something unique with it to make it stand out.

They need to do that with caves in general, a lot of them are starting to feel generic.

Originally Posted by sAv1Or)

It's not even the fact they are harder to navigate. I just think it takes forever to get from point A to point B when you are trying to scale a vast water area littered w/ trainers and rocks as fast as you can because you don't want to deal with it.
It's more the frustration that I want to get out of there and get it over with but I have to get it done then so I don't have to get it done later.
But GF hates me -___- Though they made me feel better about them w/ BW/BW2 because they didn't really have any that you HAD to travel.

Ah, well I don't necessarily find that too problematic, but I don't mind shorter mandatory water routes. As long as I can still have long, optional ones.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

I would like to have to do the longer ones in game so they're done and I can do the shorter ones post game because that's when I do all of the quick item clean-ups and whatnot.

But wouldn't you prefer to have more meat in the post-E4 gameplay rather than before the E4?
(Of course ideally I know everyone would like to have tons of things to do on both sides, but that's never going to happen -_-)

Was that really it? Will wondered. Was that what they were all doing, looking for someone less different? Was that what he was doing? Rachel was dynamic and thoughtful and focused and caring and different in more ways than he could count, but the whole point of Rachel, as far as Will was concerned, was that she wasn't him. There was a flaw in Katrina's logic, then. This thing about looking for someone less different ... It only really worked, he realised, if you were convinced that being you wasn't so bad in the first place.

But wouldn't you prefer to have more meat in the post-E4 gameplay rather than before the E4?
(Of course ideally I know everyone would like to have tons of things to do on both sides, but that's never going to happen -_-)

I prefer having more pre-E4 content. Once you beat the champion there's no longer a sense of urgency to get anywhere. There's no goal at the end except maybe a legendary. If Route 17/18 were incorporated into the main game, we'd probably have a few Plasma battles and a story event at the P2 Lab. Now its just a few trainers and items. It just feels so empty by comparison. Of course there's the thrill of exploring, but with the story and other elements on top, you can certainly do more with an area before the E4 than after it.

Maybe I'm thinking too hard about this, but could the P2 Laboratory be based off of Plum Island? Plum Island isn't in Manhattan but it's in eastern New York. It's a secluded laboratory that has an undisclosed purpose. Plum Island apparently conducts tests on animals while the P2 Lab is the place where Genesect was resurrected (testing on Pokemon). Coincidence?

I prefer having more pre-E4 content. Once you beat the champion there's no longer a sense of urgency to get anywhere. There's no goal at the end except maybe a legendary. If Route 17/18 were incorporated into the main game, we'd probably have a few Plasma battles and a story event at the P2 Lab. Now its just a few trainers and items. It just feels so empty by comparison. Of course there's the thrill of exploring, but with the story and other elements on top, you can certainly do more with an area before the E4 than after it.

Well, we're going into the realms of personal preference here, but for me, the best thing about defeating the E4 is being able to access all of the areas you couldn't before the E4. Fortunately B/W2 had quite a lot of it, but even some locations had some storyline-driven occurrences, e.g. battling N in his Castle, then fusing Kyurem and Zekrom/Reshiram.

The areas which weren't story-driven were still quite nice to explore anyway, mainly the south-eastern portion of the region. I still explored it as thoroughly as I did in B/W1.

Was that really it? Will wondered. Was that what they were all doing, looking for someone less different? Was that what he was doing? Rachel was dynamic and thoughtful and focused and caring and different in more ways than he could count, but the whole point of Rachel, as far as Will was concerned, was that she wasn't him. There was a flaw in Katrina's logic, then. This thing about looking for someone less different ... It only really worked, he realised, if you were convinced that being you wasn't so bad in the first place.

The areas which weren't story-driven were still quite nice to explore anyway, mainly the south-eastern portion of the region. I still explored it as thoroughly as I did in B/W1.

I'm glad that they left out a lot of areas to explore. But GF should've made some changes in most of the areas. Aside from the trainers, they're identically the same as before.

:: Dragonspiral Tower could've had a bit more wreckage inside, which should've altered the path towards the top.
:: The puddles within the Moor of Icirrus, and Route 8 could've at least expanded, while some went dry.
:: Pinwheel Forest, especially the forest path should've changed a lot and should've had more explorable areas.
:: Routes 1-3... I really don't expect much changes in these routes. Same with the Dreamyard.
:: Wellspring should've had a least one or two more new cave openings.
:: Currents within Routes 17 and 18 should've at least changed.

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I don't think they'd need to do anything too drastic here. Maybe at most, the bridge on the main path breaks so you have to go down the path towards Rumination Field and then use Surf to go back to the forest path, but other than that, its' pretty much fine.

Originally Posted by Wulava

:: Routes 1-3... I really don't expect much changes in these routes. Same with the Dreamyard.

For the Dreamyard, they could've collapsed the area a bit more making it more mazelike.

Originally Posted by Wulava

:: Wellspring should've had a least one or two more new cave openings.

Maybe, but Wellspring Cave isn't too interesting either way, so I don't really care what they do here.

Originally Posted by Wulava

:: Currents within Routes 17 and 18 should've at least changed.

The path through Rt. 17 and 18 is fine the way it is, I'd rather they not mess with it.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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It's indeed fine, but would have been much better if the puzzle is different. What Wulava meant is, keep the currents, just change the puzzle.

While we're on the topic of routes they should've changed, Route 9 seems like it should've had more done to it. I mean, it's got a department store just sort of thrown into the middle of the route, you'd have thought after two years other buildings would've been developed around it.

While we're on the topic of routes they should've changed, Route 9 seems like it should've had more done to it. I mean, it's got a department store just sort of thrown into the middle of the route, you'd have thought after two years other buildings would've been developed around it.

I agree. Route 9 has just been one of those Routes you pass through and were like "um...k" and that's it. It was very small and didn't have a lot of 'meat' to it, so to say.

Also, with Challenger's Cave as well. I was actually excited to see the changes that they would make to it with the release of Black and White 2, only to find out it was blocked

It's indeed fine, but would have been much better if the puzzle is different. What Wulava meant is, keep the currents, just change the puzzle.

You mean like changing the currents' direction? I'd rather they not even mess with that. The original design suits its purpose quite well, really, P2 Laboratory and that one part of Rt. 18 with the Double Grass are both appropriately difficult to access, so it's fine. The only part I can see changing is them reversing the way you travel through Rt. 18, and even then, it'd be too minor a change and too difficult to implement to be worth it.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?