But still I can't get it. We talk about Pure Land beyond heavens, beyond Samsara and beyond rebirth, but still in existence in this physical world, just in another galaxy far far away? Heavens seems more realistic in the sense that we can't see them because they are more subtle, not of physical material like us.

Pure Land, at the phenomenon level (I will not speak now at the noumenon level), is real.

By real here, I mean something you can experience fully as you experience your normal things now, while awake. Pure Land is real in the sense that you will feel things (objects, yourself, other beings, etc) there as you experience here: its something so real as real life, more "real" and vivid than a simple dream.

That doesnt mean that Pure Land is made of atoms like a rock, your hand or the sun. About that we cant be sure, but probably Pure Land is something more subtle, like the nature of light (so to say).

Heaven is also real, but in heaven there is suffering, even if at a subtle (and sometimes not perceivable) level. In heaven you will find the 3 marks of existence and you can back to lower levels of existence. In Pure Land thats impossible: you can only go up.

But still I can't get it. We talk about Pure Land beyond heavens, beyond Samsara and beyond rebirth, but still in existence in this physical world, just in another galaxy far far away? Heavens seems more realistic in the sense that we can't see them because they are more subtle, not of physical material like us.

I like the idea of Pure Land, but this is my big trouble with them

hi zamotcr. i sympathise, because it is something i think many struggle with (myself included). part of the problem is, imo, this teaching is rooted in experience. the question becomes then, how to share in the experience? a good teacher and samgha are invaluable (i can not, speaking from my own experience, stress this enough). i've also found considering and reflecting on the Asvagosa quote (see sig) alongside the 17th vow, and considering Shan Tao's Parable of the White Path helps shed some light on the matter, especially if we consider each in relation to our own life.

Gassho,Jon

All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.

I said that Pure Land is real in my last post, but many times i get "weak" and ask myself "Is it real? Can really exist an holy space, out of space and time, created by a Buddha, where anyone can achieve Budahood at his own pace?". Such place, incredibly beautiful, powerful and free, looks like an impossibility, specially for rational minds like mine, thats why I will read, sometimes, storys of sucessful rebirths on Pure Land. Thats why I get happy, when I have prophetic dreams after Nembutsu (dream with high detail,about things that will happen right in the next morning; its very rare to have such dreams) because they are like signals that there is a Pure Land.

Are the Mind-only Pure Land and the Self-nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?

It is because the Mind-only Pure Land exists that we are reborn in the Pure Land of the West. If the mind is not pure, it is impossible to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land. Even when those who have committed cardinal transgressions achieve rebirth through ten recitations, such rebirth is due to their reciting the Buddha’s name with a pure mind, thus eliciting a response from Amitabha Buddha. Ordinary people generally think that if the Pure Land is Mind-Only, then it does not exist. This is the understanding of demons and externalists. Such a deluded view, which appears correct but is in reality wrong, affects more than half of all people and causes practitioners to forfeit true benefits.

It is precisely because of the Self-Nature Amitabha that the practitioner must recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West seeking rebirth in the Pure Land – so as to achieve the Self-Nature Amitabha through gradual cultivation. If he merely grasps at the Self-Nature Amitabha but does not recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West, he cannot achieve immediate escape from Birth and death – not even if he is truly awakened, much less if (like most people who ask this question) he is pretentious and just indulges in empty talk without engaging in practice.

Thus the answer to your question [are the mind-Only Pure Land and the Self-Nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?] is that they are one yet two before Buddhahood is attained, two yet one after Buddhahood is attained.

if one's mind is as pure as the Buddha, the place you are siting or located is Pureland. what the mind see outward is forever the pureland. there's no suffering, no duality, no what so ever as stated in Heart sutra. Everything that's positive is positive. Everything that's negative is also positive/pure. Everything is the way it's suppose to be. yet you see that all are pure. the table, the computer, the floor, the sky etc...all are pure! this is what i understand by the stanza. Impermanence is Permanent. Affiliction is Bodhi. Existence/samsara Is Pureland/Nirvana. Two yet one.

_/\_Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung

I was thinking and studying a lot these days and I concluded that if the Pure Land is completely physical or is in another dimension, it doesn't change anything.The thing is, Pure Land is real, wherever it is located, and we should strive to get there.

Another thing is, the original term for Pure Land is Buddhaksetra, which mean Buddhaland, which is very very long in extension, maybe our completely galaxy or more, this Saha World is a Buddhaland, the Buddhaland of Shakyamuni, so like this one, there are infinite ones in the cosmos.

And for the descriptions of the Pure Land, maybe they symbolize something pure, maybe it's not literal, maybe it alludes to something higher. What is gold or lapis lazuli to a enlightened being? Nothing! They are not attach to forms.

I found this book quite clear about:-the difference between Pure Land and heavens-reasons to believe that Pure Land is a real place. Actually, the author says ' as real as the physical world you exist in now'

PLB wrote:I found this book quite clear about:-the difference between Pure Land and heavens-reasons to believe that Pure Land is a real place. Actually, the author says ' as real as the physical world you exist in now'

Wow, I'm surprised to see Wong Kiew Kit writing a book on Buddhism.I've known about him for a long, long time from the kung fu world, where his reputation is somewhat mixed, though mostly positive.My curiosity's piqued, adding it to my wishlist in case it gets back in stock.

The Buddha said to Ānanda, "What you say is true. Even though a king is the noblest of all men and has a regal countenance, if he is compared with a wheel-turning monarch, he will appear as base and inferior as a beggar beside a king. Likewise, however excellent and unrivaled the majestic appearance of such a monarch may be, [272a] if he is compared with the lord of the Heaven of the Thirty-three Gods, he will also appear incomparably inferior, even ten thousands koṭīs of times more so. Again, if this heavenly lord is compared with the lord of the Sixth Heaven, he will appear a hundred thousand koṭīs of times inferior. If the lord of the Sixth Heaven is compared with a bodhisattva or a śrāvaka dwelling in the land of Amitāyus, his countenance and appearance will be far from matching those of the bodhisattva or śrāvaka, being a thousand million koṭīs of times or even incalculable times inferior."

The Buddha said to Ānanda, "devas and humans in the land of Amitāyus are each provided with robes, food and drink, flowers, perfume, ornaments, silken canopies and banners, and are surrounded by exquisite sounds. Their abodes, palaces, and pavilions are exactly in accordance with the size of their bodies. One, two or even innumerable jewels appear before them, as soon as they wish. In addition, beautiful jeweled fabric covers the ground where all the devas and humans walk. In that Buddha-land there are innumerable jeweled nets, all adorned with skeins of gold thread, pearls, and a hundred thousand kinds of rare and marvelous treasures. All around the nets hang jeweled bells of the utmost beauty, which shine brilliantly."

When a natural breeze of virtue arises and gently blows, it is moderate in temperature, neither cold nor hot, refreshing and soft to the senses, and moves neither too slowly nor too quickly. When the breeze wafts over the nets and the various jeweled trees, countless excellent sounds of the Dharma are heard, and ten thousand kinds of delicate fragrances of virtue are diffused. If one smells those fragrances, one's impurities and passions spontaneously cease to arise. If touched by the breeze itself, one enjoys the same pleasure as a monk who has entered the samādhi of Extinction.

PorkChop wrote:Wow, I'm surprised to see Wong Kiew Kit writing a book on Buddhism.I've known about him for a long, long time from the kung fu world, where his reputation is somewhat mixed, though mostly positive.My curiosity's piqued, adding it to my wishlist in case it gets back in stock.

While I can't say anything really useful about Wong Kiew Kit as a kung fu/qigong teacher, I find his book about Pure Land quite interesting. His approach seemed genuine to me and this book played a significant role in my conversion to Pure Land Buddhism as he makes an effort to show how there may be good reasons to think that Pure Land is not just an imaginary object of blind faith. When one is sometimes disconcerted by the way the Mahayana traditional literature ( Sutras and commentaries) talks about Pure Land because one's cultural and religious background is totally different ( which is really the case for me), Wong Kiew Kit 's book is helpful in so far it uses modern language and references so that it can make sense.

PorkChop wrote:Wow, I'm surprised to see Wong Kiew Kit writing a book on Buddhism.I've known about him for a long, long time from the kung fu world, where his reputation is somewhat mixed, though mostly positive.My curiosity's piqued, adding it to my wishlist in case it gets back in stock.

While I can't say anything really useful about Wong Kiew Kit as a kung fu/qigong teacher, I find his book about Pure Land quite interesting. His approach seemed genuine to me and this book played a significant role in my conversion to Pure Land Buddhism as he makes an effort to show how there may be good reasons to think that Pure Land is not just an imaginary object of blind faith. When one is sometimes disconcerted by the way the Mahayana traditional literature ( Sutras and commentaries) talks about Pure Land because one's cultural and religious background is totally different ( which is really the case for me), Wong Kiew Kit 's book is helpful in so far it uses modern language and references so that it can make sense.

I am wondering about the Big Bang theory as origin of the universe and the Pure Lands. If the pure lands started eons of eons ago, wouldn't this mean that some pure lands existed before the big bang?Or they all started after the big bang? Remember that science thinks that the universe has 13.700.000.000 year of existence.

zamotcr wrote:I am wondering about the Big Bang theory as origin of the universe and the Pure Lands. If the pure lands started eons of eons ago, wouldn't this mean that some pure lands existed before the big bang?Or they all started after the big bang? Remember that science thinks that the universe has 13.700.000.000 year of existence.

I believe Pure Land is out of our realm of existence, not in this universe. So, the laws of big bang wouldnt apply.

zamotcr wrote:I am wondering about the Big Bang theory as origin of the universe and the Pure Lands. If the pure lands started eons of eons ago, wouldn't this mean that some pure lands existed before the big bang?Or they all started after the big bang? Remember that science thinks that the universe has 13.700.000.000 year of existence.

If you're going to follow the cosmology, you might want to start with the first one that was introduced:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmologyNow someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pure Lands to me always seemed to be on the same level as the Pure Abodes (Śuddhāvāsa), which are not supposed to be destroyed at the contraction and expansion of the universe - thus a big bang is no big deal. In fact, the Buddha said that the Pure Abodes was the one birth he had never experienced, because if he had he would never have returned.That being said, those born in the Pure Abodes can operate as protectors of Buddhism.With the Buddha of Infinite Light, also the Buddha Infinite Life, plus the ability of bodhisattvas in the Pure Land to see other Buddhalands & travel to them to help, I'm thinking the analogy holds - it's just that Mahayana says that those born in the Pure Lands can become full Buddhas.