SamSho is great, is looks great, plays great and quite fresh compare to other games, and the characters looks great with each its different tone (also none very ANIMUUU so that's an extra plus for me)

But you can never tell anyway, Tekken has started slow and now it's big, while there are games like MK that always start big then drop drastically. And you have Street Fighter and Smash that always start big and keep being on the top for a long time. So no matter the start you can never really predict how it will follow for each game.

[08] Mercenary

It's not my cup of tea either. Still back in the day as a kid I was a huge MK fanboy, also I mostly liked the lore and the characters, thinking about it, when it comes to gameplay, I was absolute trash at classic MK games, but I really didn't care or even notice it, since I never really played MK competitively. It was all about looking at cool stuff happening on the screen for me back then. I was half decent at MK4, I didn't like the roster or visuals as much as MK1-3, but I remember noticing I was enjoying MK4 gameplay more, which I understand is a controversial statement. MK: Gold (basically MK4: Ultimate Edition) was even better for putting more classic characters and stages back into the game. Than Deadly Alliance arrived and it was pure garbage. I gradually fell completely out of love with MK over the years after its release.

So this discussion dovetails with something I've been thinking about this last week. For some reason, I got it into my head to list all of the fighter franchises I've put a non-trivial amount of time into over the years. Here's what I came up with (roughly in order of how much I've enjoyed them (the fact that the list goes straight from 3D in a row, to 2D, reflects the fact that I'm really much more a fan of true 3D fighters; Battle Arena Toshinden is lower on the list only because it was such a transient thing).

The thing is, this list just feels so light. Even considering I played up to ten games in some of those franchises, I just feel there should be three or four more series names up there. Can anyone think of what I'm missing. Just to note, I've never played any WCW or UFC simulators, and I don't really consider M.U.G.E.N. a proper fighter. Anyone who reads this, please throw out some suggestions because, as exercises in nostalgia go, this is starting to get to be like an itch I can't scratch!

Honestly most people didn't care about balance back then because fighting games were still in their infancy and the priority was about making money in the arcade. The push towards balance changes I would say happened naturally with Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition probably being the first example of it. Anyone who played the World Warrior version can tell you just how cheap the bosses were in that game so when they became playable they were noticeably more balanced plus you had things like the reduction in damage for the hadoken's and throw damage overall was nerfed a bit. With this trend of revisions (plus some other games doing it) this obviously lead people in fighting game circles to advocate for better balance but funnily enough MK didn't bother chasing balance until MK9 which kinda shows that all this push for balance in all fighting games as a whole is a relatively new thing. If anything MK9 taking the competitive scene seriously probably marked the end of unbalanced fighting games being able to avoid scrutiny of it's mechanics, games like Time Killers or Rise of the Robots would never be released in this age. Back then people were more accepting of their experimental nature, now with the fighting genre being more seasoned everyone would laugh at those games into oblivion if released to day with their garbage gameplay.

[08] Mercenary

Nope, though I've been meaning to give it a try: I've always thought of DBZ as bargain-bin anime that exists mainly as a baseline for how to tell completely uncompelling stories without stakes beyond "make a new character with an even sillier design who's even more super-human (or super-saiyan as the case may be) than the last guy." Which turned me off to DBFZ. But once I saw enough of the game, I began to see how that premise might actually make for a fun, if classically over-the-top, game. But I haven't found them time to dig into it yet (besides, I'd rather borrow a copy first when it comes to fighters and no one owns physical copies anymore!

Honestly most people didn't care about balance back then because fighting games were still in their infancy and the priority was about making money in the arcade. The push towards balance changes I would say happened naturally with Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition probably being the first example of it. Anyone who played the World Warrior version can tell you just how cheap the bosses were in that game so when they became playable they were noticeably more balanced plus you had things like the reduction in damage for the hadoken's and throw damage overall was nerfed a bit. With this trend of revisions (plus some other games doing it) this obviously lead people in fighting game circles to advocate for better balance but funnily enough MK didn't bother chasing balance until MK9 which kinda shows that all this push for balance in all fighting games as a whole is a relatively new thing. If anything MK9 taking the competitive scene seriously probably marked the end of unbalanced fighting games being able to avoid scrutiny of it's mechanics, games like Time Killers or Rise of the Robots would never be released in this age. Back then people were more accepting of their experimental nature, now with the fighting genre being more seasoned everyone would laugh at those games into oblivion if released to day with their garbage gameplay.

[14] Master

I still do wish that SoulCalibur VI had continued the lesser fanservice route that SoulCalibur V was taking. Which isn’t to say there still wasn’t fanservice, because there absolutely was, but it was dialed back enough where it didn’t elicit a what-the-hell response from casual onlookers.

The ads featuring Ivy’s assets aside, there really wasn’t much in-your-face about it in SoulCalibur V, and yet here we are in SoulCalibur VI hearkening back to SoulCalibur IV’s level of ridiculousness. It’s going to be whatever it’s going to be, I suppose, but I feel like it might have helped the public image if they kept it dialed back a bit.

Pyrrha’s modesty skirt will never not be amusing to me, where it adamantly attempts to block panty shots as long as she’s standing, and then once she goes Pyrrha Omega, it stops caring and lets loose all the panties you could ever want. Someone actually programmed that, and it makes me smile. But anyway, a little realistic fantasy never really hurt anyone.

@Rusted Blade - Aside from esoteric things I might mention like Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi, I feel like you mostly hit the notable fighters. The Dragon Ball Z Budokai trilogy was another line I really enjoyed, but they ruined those for me with the transition to behind-the-back focus in Tenkaichi and beyond. There are other anime fighters, of course, but they kind of exist in their own world, outside of the core fighting games base.

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!

[14] Master

SC6 is awesome but when it comes to newcomers it's my least favorite in the entire franchise. Outside of maybe Necrid i think i like more all newcomers that were introduced in the history of the franchise. Groh plays sick but his design is way too anime and may look a bit out of place time to time (maybe if his face was close to his artwork i may change my mind?), Azwel is quite opposite i think he has a dope design but not a big fan of his playstyle and i don't find him fun to watch. But of course it's just my opinion, it will be interesting to see how the 2 will be rank if Bamco will do another character Poll in the future.

[14] Master

I’m really hoping that they actually do something with Grøh, though. Azwel is so involved in many other stories aside from his own, and is cemented in for future implicated roles in the future. Grøh, on the other hand, may as well be Setsuka as far as story is concerned. I have some small faith that Setsuka actually will have a role in the revived narrative, putting aside revenge and setting up how she will eventually become a master in her own right to train future students. But I don’t see much, if any, room for Grøh in the remaining characters we would see as DLC, for him to be linked to their stories.

[13] Hero

[08] Mercenary

I’m really hoping that they actually do something with Grøh, though. Azwel is so involved in many other stories aside from his own, and is cemented in for future implicated roles in the future. Grøh, on the other hand, may as well be Setsuka as far as story is concerned. I have some small faith that Setsuka actually will have a role in the revived narrative, putting aside revenge and setting up how she will eventually become a master in her own right to train future students. But I don’t see much, if any, room for Grøh in the remaining characters we would see as DLC, for him to be linked to their stories.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm beginning to think Groh becomes a furry and goes by the name Ein in SC5 somehow.
Jokes aside, I do genuinely think it some capacity, I think Groh and Zwei will have an affiliation.

Amy calling him a dog now makes me thing Groh is Ein, even if the statement is relatively meaningless the colour palette is there...
Groh the furry confirmed?

[08] Mercenary

SC6 is awesome but when it comes to newcomers it's my least favorite in the entire franchise. Outside of maybe Necrid i think i like more all newcomers that were introduced in the history of the franchise. Groh plays sick but his design is way too anime and may look a bit out of place time to time (maybe if his face was close to his artwork i may change my mind?), Azwel is quite opposite i think he has a dope design but not a big fan of his playstyle and i don't find him fun to watch. But of course it's just my opinion, it will be interesting to see how the 2 will be rank if Bamco will do another character Poll in the future.

I couldn't agree more on the general premise, but in my opinion, Groh's play style is just as lame as his incredibly ill-conceived emo/anime design. Seriously, I will never stop pointing out how much every aspect of this doofus' design makes him look like the front man for a My Chemical Romance tribute band. But f#$% his ridiculously impractical/obviously-dumb-as-shit weapon design that anybody who's ever so much as picked up a broom handle in the center ought to realize is the most clumsily ineffectual basis for any melee weapon imaginable. And double that for the spammy way that it plays out, especially when they let the anime retard go super saiyan. Just a complete friggin' misfire on every possible level with that character. As I recall, its legal to trade oral sex for favours in Japan, so who would need to get blown at Namco to get these Bleach/Naruto-watching numbskulls who do the current designs to return to real world cultures and weapons and stop it with this anime shit already?

Azwel is nearly as bad: he looks (and sounds) like a 1950's stage musician who is more recently notorious for a string of sex crimes. At least his style has something unique to it, but it's impossible not to recognize that he only came about because Project Soul were bummed that their Business Daddy gave Noctus to Tekken instead of SC, where he obviously belongs. Though for the love of god, I will forgive all and celebrate this game forever if this results in Tifa being added in as a guest.

I’m really hoping that they actually do something with Grøh, though. Azwel is so involved in many other stories aside from his own, and is cemented in for future implicated roles in the future. Grøh, on the other hand, may as well be Setsuka as far as story is concerned. I have some small faith that Setsuka actually will have a role in the revived narrative, putting aside revenge and setting up how she will eventually become a master in her own right to train future students. But I don’t see much, if any, room for Grøh in the remaining characters we would see as DLC, for him to be linked to their stories.

God I hope he does get dropped immediately. I will dance a little jig if they write him out of the next game by being crushed by Necrid's spaceship as it plummets to Earth and reintroduces him to the reboot, Wizard of Oz style. That is how much I want Groh to go away. Only if there was a game that had already reintroduced every one of the seventy other movesets would I want to see Groh return. He's like anti-calibur to me, ranking in just a little before ZWEI, who combines the lameness of Groh's emo aesthetic and "really, you're going to hold it there?" weapon with the "everyone keep an eye on your drinks" vibe of Azwel.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm beginning to think Groh becomes a furry and goes by the name Ein in SC5 somehow.
Jokes aside, I do genuinely think it some capacity, I think Groh and Zwei will have an affiliation.

Amy calling him a dog now makes me thing Groh is Ein, even if the statement is relatively meaningless the colour palette is there...
Groh the furry confirmed?

It would explain how ZWEI learned how to perfectly feather his hair and dye it bright colours for maximum douche-bomb effect in the seventeenth century, since Groh clearly pioneered that technique. I think Groh must ultimately end up being an immortal being like Ivy and Zasalamel, because he clearly has an eventual destiny as the assistant manager of a Hot Topic at some point.

[14] Master

I couldn't agree more on the general premise, but in my opinion, Groh's play style is just as lame as incredibly ill-conceived emo/anime design. Seriously, I will never stop pointing out how much every aspect of this doofus' design makes him look like the front man for a My Chemical Romance tribute band, but f#$% his ridiculously impractical/obviously-dumb-as-shit weapon design that anybody who's ever so much as picked up a broom handle in the center ought to realize is the most clumsily ineffectual basis for any melee weapon imaginable. And double that for the spammy way that it plays out, especially when they let the anime retard go super saiyan. Just a complete friggin' misfire on every possible level with that character. AsI recall, its legal to trade oral sex for favours in Japan, so who would need to get blown at Namco to get these Bleach/Naruto-watching numbskulls who do their current designs to return to real world cultures and weapons and stop it with this anime shit already?

Azwel is nearly as bad: he looks (and sounds) like a 1950's stage musician who is more recently notorious for a string of sex crimes. At least his style has something unique to it, but it's impossible not to recognize that he only came about because Project Soul were bummed that their Business Daddy gave Noctus to Tekken instead of SC, where he obviously belongs. Though for the love of god, i will forgive all and celebrate this game forever if this results in Tifa being added in as a guest.

To be fair, i don't think i will miss both of them if they won't come back in next installment. Patroklos was miles away more interesting imho (i picked Patro as example as he seems to be the most hated character in SC by people in general)

But some changes in Groh design can change my mind, maybe.

Also serious question as i'm just curious, are there people that find Azwel fun to watch? I'm asking seriously since i don't ever remember somebody being excited to see him in action in the twitch chat LOL

[14] Master

I’m still going with the idea that Grøh will be Amy’s bodyguard for her journey to save Raphael, and that “dog” is like her servant nickname for him. I think he’ll lose himself at some point during the trip and go feral, or maybe at the castle itself, being exposed to Soul Edge shards when Raphael stabs the eye. Raphael will then see Grøh as a threat, they’ll fight, but Raphael won’t be able to finish the job due to his injuries, and later, after Amy nurses him back to health, he’ll use his influence as Dumas to capture Grøh and put him to death, then E.I.N. will awaken and Grøh will become Z.W.E.I. And then the irony comes full circle or something along those lines.

[08] Mercenary

To be fair, i don't think i will miss both of them if they won't come back in next installment. Patroklos was miles away more interesting imho (i picked Patro as example as he seems to be the most hated character in SC by people in general)

[10] Knight

@Rusted Blade As much as I will agree on the design side of Groh (plus I will add his character and the way he speaks to the awful mix as well) but I think you discredit his weapon a bit too much. I mean I do know how impractical that design is but to be honest so is Zasalamel's scythe for example. As for Azwel - I kinda both like and dislike his design. For first it does feel way more in place compared to the rest of the cast but then again his personality got tad annoying with time and way too one dimensional. Even tho I disliked design of Algol he was still way better as a character.
I also wish Namco would stop a with all that blatant magic and brought in some already existing weapons/themes into the game and take it back from over the top high fantasy. But then again I think we already had that conversation

As a sidenote I think if Groh's weapon was made tad bigger and if they made him use both hands plus more twirling moves it would definitely would still look flashy but also more feasible. But yeah - take him out or redesign him cause whenever I see him I feel like a site looser for buying season pass

[08] Mercenary

I’m still going with the idea that Grøh will be Amy’s bodyguard for her journey to save Raphael, and that “dog” is like her servant nickname for him. I think he’ll lose himself at some point during the trip and go feral, or maybe at the castle itself, being exposed to Soul Edge shards when Raphael stabs the eye. Raphael will then see Grøh as a threat, they’ll fight, but Raphael won’t be able to finish the job due to his injuries, and later, after Amy nurses him back to health, he’ll use his influence as Dumas to capture Grøh and put him to death, then E.I.N. will awaken and Grøh will become Z.W.E.I. And then the irony comes full circle or something along those lines.

Sort of--scythes were actually peasant weapons for millennia: they aren't ideal weapons, but as polearms they could be pretty effective. At a minimum you have leverage and reach. Groh's weapon is stupendously ridiculous precisely because it has neither. You literally would have the exact same reach and a greatly expanded mobility, leverage, and angular range of movement if you had half of Groh's weapon as opposed to the whole thing with a narrow grip in the middle. Plus you wouldn't be in constant danger of having your weapon turned against you by having the entire thing used as a lever against you. Literally, it might be single dumbest possible design for a bladed weapon, combining the most possible glaring flaws and disadvantages imaginable to anyone whose ever picked up a real sword. Which is why it never existed anywhere in history and only exists in Star Wars and anime.

Now I'm not saying that numerous of the other characters' weapons don't take some extreme creative license in their effectiveness. But at least most of them can make sense if you imagine someone strong enough or magical enough to wield them. But Groh's weapon is just idiotic to the very core of the physics that govern it, and no amount of super saiyan can cover for that fact, or the obvious lack of familiarity with genuine martial arts by whoever designed it.

As for Azwel - I kinda both like and dislike his design. For first it does feel way more in place compared to the rest of the cast but then again his personality got tad annoying with time and way too one dimensional.

He also has nonsense dialog, even for a Soulcalibur character. Something is just not translating with his whole "protector of humanity" schpiel. He's more comic book villain than the anti-hero that kind of title suggests.

I also wish Namco would stop a with all that blatant magic and brought in some already existing weapons/themes into the game and take it back from over the top high fantasy. But then again I think we already had that conversation.

As a sidenote I think if Groh's weapon was made tad bigger and if they made him use both hands plus more twirling moves it would definitely would still look flashy but also more feasible. But yeah - take him out or redesign him cause whenever I see him I feel like a site looser for buying season pass.

He's plenty twirly to my mind. Anyway, in order to rescue that weapon but keep it's same basic vibe, you'd have to reduce the blades down to nine-inches max, and increase the haft to at least three feet in length. They were rare (because a regular spear or halberd is just more practical at that point), but there are some historical examples of that--though usually the blades were not identical but rather adapted to different purposes.

[13] Hero

Azwel is fun to watch for me, if you keep a tab on his stances when spectating you get enjoyment out of trying to read the player's next move. My only complain is that muscle buster has a lengthy animation and due to it's damage output it gets used a lot. IIRC Spear Stance B+K does more damage but that animation is only half second so no one complains about that. I also love Azwel's design and his voice acting theatrics are a delight to me. I think he's the best character Project Soul have done since Hilde.

If not for the fact that Leixia, Natsu, and Viola exist, I might agree as to that. But let's be clear that it's not like there has been stiff competition in the new character department since SCIV. More than half of the new SCV characters were goofier versions of an earlier style.