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Can anyone identify/shed light on these 2 guns

Was hoping someone out there might be able to identify these 2 unusual old pistols.
This one is rough as guts, bits missing. The lever that goes over the flash pan (if that's the right name for it)still moves but the other bits are seized up. Length is about 450mm long, bore is about 17mm.DSCF4972.jpgDSCF4973.jpgDSCF4974.jpgDSCF4975.jpg

This one is much smaller, about 230mm long. Trigger and hammer work. It has a tapered bore which at the widest diameter at the muzzle is 19mm. Looks like you could use anything for a projectile eg, a handful of small stones etc.DSCF4976.jpgDSCF4977.jpgDSCF4978.jpg
Any comments or thoughts greatly appreciated.

The larger of the two is flintlock black powder pistol the brass but plate looks quite ornate and from this you could probably reason that it was possibly one of a pair made for wealthy clients/officers. The lever over the flash pan is called the frizzen or steel, a flint held in the jaws of the hammer would strike the frizzen producing a shower of sparks at the same time the action of the flint against the frizzen would snap it open exposing a small charge of black power in the pan, the powder would ignite with a flash igniting the main powder charge in the barrel through the touch hole which should be visible near the bottom of the pan. The term flash in the pan comes from this where the main charge fails to ignite.

The smaller is a box lock percussion pistol sometimes called a pocket or coat pistol, also black powder the main charge is ignited by a percussion cap fitted over the nipple which protrudes from the rear of the barrel, much more reliable than the flintlock. The funnel end on the barrel may possibly indicate that solid ball or lead shot could be used.

Both pistols load by pouring a measured powder charge into the barrel from the muzzle end and then finishing off with a suitable ball being rammed down on top of the powder charge.

If you are unsure of the history of the guns make absolutly sure there is no old powder charge left in the barrel of either of them before doing anything.

Even though the flintlock looks like a basket case I believe it looks very restorable, the pocket pistol looks in fair shape for its age and would not take a great deal of work to restore. If you do plan to restore seek advise from an expert as refinishing the patina can destroy any value the gun has.

Flitlocks reigned in the 1700's and were gradually phased out from around 1820 when percussion caps were introduced,

Possibly worth talking to a museum about who could restore or provide you with more information. Not sure what the situation in TAS is with respect to licensing & regulations of historic firearms but don't forget to check that out too.

The 1st looks like a 1750's Heavy Dragoon pattern - many makers of these. It's missing its brass trigger guard. Are there any markings on the barrel or on the plate under the fore-end??

Measure from the mouth of the barrel to where the flash pan is, then gently (standing to the side) insert a wooden dowel down the barrel. If there is more than about 1.5cm difference you probably have a ball and powder in there and its live. If less than 1.5cm but still short of the muzzle/pan measurement there is probably still powder in there and its live.

It is possible to unload these using compressed air through the flash hole but only if you know what you are doing.

If it has a ball or loaded with powder, get a self tapper welded onto the end of a bit of 6 or 8 mm bar longer than the barrel, welded with a T on the end. Screw this into the ball or patch to remove to make it safe, something similar can be bought. Saw this used a long time ago when I used to shoot rifle and pistol, unfortunately not Black Powder.
Kryn

Thanks for the feedback. They are definitely not loaded.
My mum bought them from a garage sale in Sydney years ago.
Got a thread going on in the sculpture and woodcarving section of the woodwork forums some of you gun enthusiasts might be interested in? If so click here....http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=189595

I'll hazard a guess and say the top pistol is something from the borderlands in India/Afghanistan and the bottom may be a Belgian made pocket pistol for travellers. Not made for stones but an assortment of shot that would be 'discouraging' at short range.

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