Fonts LC Plans
--------------
- Plan for 6-week LC after this next WD cycle.
Multi-col Column Sizing Pseudo-algorithm
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- RESOLVED: Remove lines 3-10 of pseudo-algorithm in multicol,
remove concept of available width and have pseudo-algorithm
depend on used width (whose calculation is defined elsewhere
by container layout modules), state that intrinsic sizes of
multi-col elements is undefined in this level, add note
pointing to where they will be defined (css3-sizing).
====== Full minutes below ======
Fonts LC Plans
--------------
Scribe: Bert
jdaggett: What should the LC period be?
jdaggett: It's a big spec
jdaggett: 6 weeks? 2 months?
fantasai: no more than 6 weeks
fantasai: You can do a 2nd LC
jdaggett: So plan for 2 LCs?
fantasai: Can also offer an extension after a while.
dbaron: And wait a bit after the deadline
dbaron: because there will be late comments.
glazou: Officially not obliged to respond after deadline.
glazou: But in practice...
jdaggett: So 6 weeks then
jadggett: Aks Webapps, SVG and i18n for cooments
fantasai: LC or WD first?
jdaggett: First a WD.
Multi-col Column Sizing Pseudo-algorithm
----------------------------------------
Scribe: fantasai, jdaggett, & dbaron
SimonSapin: Discussed multicol at TPAC
SimonSapin: Problem with pseudo-algorithm, which has concept of unknown
available width, and I don't think it makes sense
SimonSapin: Don't see a situation in which that happens
SimonSapin: After long discussion with Håkon and Bert, f2f and email,
still don't have a resolution
SimonSapin: Underlying issue is that from what I understand from Bert's
explanation,
SimonSapin: this condition is triggered when you calculate intrinsic
sizes of a multicol element
SimonSapin: The issue then is that we have two definitions of this
SimonSapin: One in sizing, one in box
SimonSapin: But whichever we pick, neither of them defines available
width == unknown
Bert: Multicol relies only on level 2
Bert: And CSS2.1 doesn't define shrink-to-fit in many cases
Bert: So cases where it's shrink-to-fit are undefined
Bert: Multicol cannot defined actual size of columns because it relies
on shrink-to-fit algorithm
Bert: And multicol doesn't want to define it either
Bert: need a sizing algo ot define shrink-to-fit
fantasai: it would make sense for multicol to say that in a shrink-to-fit
situation, the number of columns and width are undefined
fantasai: ... and then deal with that in a later module
szilles: Could add a note pointing to where the definition might appear,
or a suggested strategy
dbaron: I would rather partially define it than say it's undefined
Bert: It defines what the final width if you have both number of columns
and column width
Bert: If either one is missing, then can't calculate
fantasai: shrink-to-fit in CSS 2.1 tries to calculate the size incorporating
the widest size it can take, the narrowest size it can take,
and the available size
fantasai: Saying the multicol is exactly the column-width times column-count
violates that formula
fantasai: the narrowest a multi-column element can take ... drops columns
rather than overflowing
fantasai: ... when the window is narrow... so you stay within the
containing block
fantasai: The formula that says you multiply the width by the column
count violates the shrink-to-fit formula.
Bert: If you set the column width and column count, that's what you should get
fantasai: But you don't get that
<SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-multicol/#pseudo-algorithm
<SimonSapin> lines 5~8
bert: discussing col-width and number of columns
simon: bert is talking
bert: 8 possible cases
bert: this alg is trying to compactly specify this
simon: so you're saying in the case of mult-col with width this alg applies?
bert and simon talking about 2.1 vs. this alg
simon: this is contradiction with 2.1 alg
<SimonSapin> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#float-width
"The shrink-to-fit width is:
min(max(preferred minimum width, available width),
preferred width)."
<SimonSapin> Floats: "If 'width' is computed as 'auto', the used value
is the "shrink-to-fit" width. "
dbaron: other specs shouldn't talk about shrink to fit
dbaron: they should talk about preferred intrinsic width and minimum
intrinsic width
dbaron: They should talk about preferred minimum width and minimum width,
which are the inputs to shrink-to-fit
fantasai: i agree with dbaron
fantasai: they can use shrink to fit but they shouldn't define it
dbaron: shrink-to-fit is simply
max(minimum intrinsic width, min(preferred intrinsic width, available width)).
That's it. Everything else should define the intrinsic widths.
Bert: so min intrinsic should be column-count * column-width
<Bert> (lines 05-08 effectively say that the min intrinsic width is
N * W + (N - 1) * gap)
fantasai: But it shouldn't be, because it won't overflow if it's smaller
than that.
fantasai: ... since a multicol can be narrower than that without overflow
bert: the user says I want that width, so that's the min width
dbaron: There are cases where it is appropriate for a minimum width to
be something other than the smallest without overflow.
fantasai: You can't define table layout sensibly if you define it some
other way
dbaron: We could decide that it's better for the minimum intrinsic width
to use or ignore column count
dbaron: Doesn't have to be strictly in terms of what causes overflow,
because that's a primitive and incorrect definition
bert: dbaron is correct but that's what we did in multi-col
simon: so the multi-col is defining min-width
bert: yes, should mention that...
Simon: I see no relationship between what's written and defining minimum
intrinsic width
simon: so what is max-width?
dbaron: In case where column width and column-count are both specified,
max-content should include both of them
dbaron: More interesting if some aren't specified
fantasai: tab and I worked through some examples for flexbox
fantasai: since we use these concepts everywhere
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-sizing/#multicol-intrinsic
fantasai: and we wrote a spec for that, which is not consistent with
what multicol sys
stevez: section 19-23 talks about behavior
jdaggett: Seems like multiple specs are involved; should there be an
action on Bert, fantasai, Simon, dbaron to decide what should
happen where?
fantasai: I think the problem is we've brought this up at every
face-to-face and there's no agreement.
fantasai: happens repeatedly at f2f
fantasai: Maybe would help if dbaron got involved?
SteveZ: Is the disagreement only on min? clear what preferred is.
simon: can we agree that multi-col should not define min-content or
max-content widths?
simon and bert discussing which spec should define this
<SteveZ> lines 19-23 define what happens when all three of available-space,
column-count and column-width are specified. This section clearly
states that column width is preserved (as much as possible) and
columns are eliminated (up to the last column). This suggests
that the min-intrinsic-width should also be defined without regard
to the column count; that is, it should be the width of 1 column
Bert: The sizing spec would then have to define every type of box,
and thus never be done.
fantasai: sizing spec would define concepts and define sizing for css 2.1
types and multicol, and new layout types would define min content
and max content widths for itself
fantasai discussing size vs. box specs
fantasai: but multicol is already in CR
Bert: I agree with that, but multicol cannot completely define things
without knowing intrinsic widths of what's inside
stevez: if i have a col width, then that is the min intrinsic width?
fantasai: Multicol can assume that the things inside the columns have
preferred intrinsic and minimum widths
fantasai: yes
fantasai: multi-col is tricky
fantasai: sizing dealt with what happens when the containing block varies
fantasai: and we put results into the definition
fantasai discussing relation with table sizing alg
fantasai: figuring out the rules for preferred and minimum intrinsic
widths was an experimental process of seeing how its layout
rules behave at different widths
szilles: So special thing wrt multicol is that the optimal width is
neither minimum nor the maximum
stevez discussing details of multi-col alg
fantasai: You almost never get exactly the column-width you asked for.
szilles: Wrt getting 2.1 shrink-to-fit, there's no harm in throwing away
the column count
szilles: and doing the right thing to get the smallest value
stevez: don't see the harm in throwing away column count
fantasai: that would make it fit as the screen size changes
bert: that's the author's choice
fantasai: If you include column-count in minimum intrinsic width,
you'll get overflow when a multicol happens to be in a float,
but not in normal flow.
fantasai: for an in-flow block you don't get what you ask for
fantasai: So we should do the same thing for floats, and not include
column-count in the minimum intrinsic width.
<dbaron> I think fantasai is correct that column-count shouldn't factor
into minimum intrinsic widths for multicols.
<fantasai> dbaron, well, it should if column-width is not specified,
because then you don't drop columns...
<fantasai> dbaron, but if both are specified, yes
stevez: calc min width, then apply 19-23
bert: that could have been a choice
bert: it's easier to use what multi-col does now
stevez: this is the argument if what you want is overflow
fantasai: I don't think we should overflow by default in some cases
when the normal behavior is not to overflow.
fantasai stevez bert discussing details of the multi-col algorithm
Bert: This case isn't the important one, could go either way, tho would
prefer not to change it
glazou: simon is not happy with one of the specs, we have to solve
Bert: Interesting cases are the next two
simon: Issue is with concept of unknown available width in the
multicol module
SimonSapin: I'm objecting to the way it's done in multicol right now
Steve: the results or the way it's specified?
simon: how it's specified
fantasai: i don't like the results
dbaron: i agree with both objections, how it's specified and the results
dbaron: I'm not happy with removing intrinsic width stuff from multicol,
but it seems like the only way out is to remove instrinsic width
details from multi-col
simon and bert discuss dependencies of algorithm in different specs
sizing solves all?
fantasai: remove from multi-col and work on in sizing
fantasai: it's an early WD so we can incorporate other layout models
fantasai: that's what's needed
bert resisting
fantasai: I want to take the fixes that were proposed by simon
simon: the changes from TPAC leaves some things undefined, to be defined
by sizing
Simon: Changes I proposed were to remove all the parts of multicol
algorithm related to "unknown available width"
bert resisting
stevez: to be clear, you're saying remove 5-8 and width alg in sizing?
Simon: I want to remove the idea that available width can be unknown.
dbaron: There is and should be no concept of "unknown available width".
discussion of where available width is
dbaron and bert discussing widths some more
and so on and so on...
dbaron: Everything about width depending on content should be encapsulated
in min-content/max-content width, and there's no concept of
unknown available width
repeat while (true) discuss width;
discussion of unknown available width
dbaron: the rules for preferred and minimum intrinsic widths don't deal
with a concept of available width
dbaron: the rules for intrinsic width calculation should be separate
from that algorithm, and there should be no concept of "unknown
available width"
SimonSapin: Where multicol says "available width", it should say "used width"
SteveZ: Can we resolve to switch multicol from an 8-part algorithm to
4-part algorithm?
bert: now we're making things more undefined
simon: yes
<sylvaing> CSS: now with more undefined
glazou: the discussion is going in circles
stevez: throw out the cause of the disagreement and procede
stevez: not ideal but practical for proceeding with the CR
discussions of scope of multi-col pseudo-alg
bert resisting
fantasai: Scope of the pseudo-algorithm should be to calculate the number
and width of the columns
fantasai: It should take as input a used width (calculated by the various
layout algorithms as appropriate), column-count, and column-width
Bert: That's what it does already
fantasai: No, it tries to calculate a width in some cases
fantasai: it should not do that.
SimonSapin: This algorithm does 2 things. I am proposing to move one half
into sizing or another module
SimonSapin: These two things are really different, and confusing to do
them both with the same algorithm
bert: might well be but how do we keep track
bert: why not do in multi-col?
stevez: doesn't seem to make sense to do in multi-col
dbaron: any layout type can define these independently
dbaron: I don't see any reason to pull it out of this module except that
the definition in css3-multicol is unreasonable.
simon: could have in multi-col but hard to get right before CR
rossen: sizing defines intrinsic sizing?
bert: yes but can't define for all layout types
simon: that's another issue
bert: sizing alg can only do that for known layout types
fantasai: they can use the terminology from sizing
stevez: we haven't finished sizing yet
stevez: so trying to define what multi-col does doesn't make sense
dbaron: I think the multicol intrinsic sizing rules are simple enough
that you can use the 2.1 terminology without any problems I think
bert resisting
fantasai: But (1) it's going to take a lot of work to get this right,
and (2) the people working on it are not considering interaction
with other layout modules.
fantasai: makes more sense to tackle them together in sizing
bert thinking
<dbaron> SteveZ: can we import the text from css3-sizing into multicol?
fantasai: Not stable enough yet for a CR-level module.
fantasai: We can incorporate it into level 2 of multicol.
stevez: the text in sizing wouldn't work to replace 5-8?
fantasai: wouldn't do the same thing
fantasai: might need to add more concepts to deal with both tables and floats
bert: I could try rewriting this in terms of preferred intrinsic sizes
defined in 2.1
fantasai: better to file comments on the sizing spec
fantasai: need to understand what the sizing spec is trying to solve
bert: not sure that this fits the bill
fantasai: Might need to have e.g. separate concept of preferred size vs.
max-content size for multicol elements
glazou: need to wrap up
stevez: we're arguing over whether there's something in the multi-col
spec that talks about intrinsic width
fantasai: that's not a good idea
bert: should ask implementors whether that's okay
glazou: what's the plan?
fantasai: remove 3-10 in the multi-col algorithm
fantasai: then remove the concept of available width
fantasai: define in terms of used width
fantasai: then it becomes an issue on sizing
fantasai: accept or reject?
bert thinking
bert: we have to ask some people first
bert: not objecting but if we remove it's a pity
stevez proposing a and b points to add to multi-col
stevez: a is intrinsic size is not defined in multi-col
stevez: b is to add a note that it'll be defined in sizing (or some
other non-normative place)
stevez: this is editorial so we can update
bert: ok, so I'll propose new text
RESOLVED: Remove lines 3-10 of pseudo-algorithm in multicol,
remove concept of available width and have pseudo-algorithm
depend on used width (whose calculation is defined elsewhere
by container layout modules), state that intrinsic sizes of
multi-col elements is undefined in this level, add note
pointing to where they will be defined
Bert: I'm not sure who'd do the actual editing, but Håkon has generally
asked me to write the text for this section.
ACTION Bert: Propose text for the resolution above
<trackbot> Created ACTION-539
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