And it was a great feeling. Of course, this guy was was pedophile, trying to engage in oral sex with my sister. I rung up Crime Stoppers (Australia's anonymous crime reporter), supplied them with his location (didn't have his address) and his email. They sent the email off to be traced or whatever they do.

If any of you know any pedophiles, please report them. It will stop you from worrying about who they're engaging in pedophilia with anymore. And it will feel great.

Moderator note: Pedophilia is a very challenging subject for a PG-13 site. Be careful about how descriptive you get about actions--if it's too descriptive it will be deleted, and if you abuse that you will get sanctioned. Do not link to sites promoting pedophilia, or other inappropriate sites.

The staff will make the judgment call on what's appropriate. If you have any questions about whether a post or link will be allowed, please PM one of us and we'll be happy to look it over and work with you on it. If you feel a post has gone over the line, PLEASE use the 'report post' function--that is the single fastest way for most of us to get the notification of a problem post.

This is a public forum. If you happen to post something here that can get you in legal hot water, I'm not going to be sorry one bit if the authorities come knocking on your door.

Yes, I know some of this sounds strict, but there is very little wiggle room with this particular subject. --Jae

Hallucination

04-20-2008, 01:27 AM

I don't really think that I'll be in a situation to report a pedo, but well done. Don't forget to tell your parents about this if they don't already know though, your sister might need a bit of a lesson on intarveb safe tea.

Sabretooth

04-20-2008, 03:27 AM

Well if a pedophile were stalking me and were female and really damned hot, I might have second thoughts about the affair, but good job kickin that pedo's butt, Jebus. :D

Jae Onasi

04-20-2008, 03:32 AM

Your sister may also need to see a professional for counseling after an experience like that. Getting molested or nearly molested is very traumatizing.

Good catch on getting the guy.

There is zero excuse for someone to be doing this to a child, and you could be doing that child the greatest favor in the world by making one little phone call to someone who can fix the problem.

True_Avery

04-20-2008, 04:19 AM

There is zero excuse for someone to be doing this to a child.
Try being born and growing up realizing that the -only- thing that gets you off is a child. There is always an excuse, and I'd wager that the majority of the people are pedophiles from birth. People want to be close to something, and they want sex. When a child is the only thing that can feed that... you get pedophiles.

If the only thing that satisfied me was a child, I wager I'd be arrested at some point as well.

But, back on topic, I have some experience with pedophiles from my past. Get your sister some counseling and coach her on internet safety as soon as possible. I would recommend removing her from the internet for a few months before letting her back on. Figure out what is making her so vulnerable, and then try and help her fix it.

I hope the police find the guy so that he can get the help he needs, or be removed from the temptation to help himself and others.

DarthJebus05

04-20-2008, 05:59 AM

I log every chat on MSN, AIM, Yahoo, Ventrilo and every game and even that happens on the computer. Due to luck while trying to find a certain chat log on MSN, I came across a email I never saw before. I read the chat log, and called the authorities straight away. I told my parents after I did, and we were thinking of getting her counseling. Nothing is final yet.

JD-Rom

04-20-2008, 09:03 AM

Darth Jebus has moved much closer to the Light Side of The Force.

Well done! Although both your sister and the pedo will (hopefully) get some counselling and therapy before they can continue their lives. :)

jonathan7

04-20-2008, 09:26 AM

Try being born and growing up realizing that the -only- thing that gets you off is a child. There is always an excuse, and I'd wager that the majority of the people are pedophiles from birth. People want to be close to something, and they want sex. When a child is the only thing that can feed that... you get pedophiles.

I disagree, while the psychological evidence does point to certain genes playing apart in people being more aggressive or whatever; people can still choose, after all while many men with higher testosterone are in Prison, there are also many men who are proffesional sports stars with a similar level of testosterone. Just because an individual maybe inclined to act in a particular way, doesn't mean they can't channel that 'energy' into something constructive.

Personally I suspect pedophiles are a mixture of genes, nurture and environment. We should be careful not to dehumanise, these poor individuals as while their crimes are repugnant they are still people, often who themsevles were abused as children. But while trying to help them; once someone has offended, I think they should be brought to account for their actions and not given the chance to re-offend.

Ctrl Alt Del

04-20-2008, 09:40 AM

I disagree, while the psychological evidence does point to certain genes playing apart in people being more aggressive or whatever; people can still choose, after all while many men with higher testosterone are in Prison, there are also many men who are proffesional sports stars with a similar level of testosterone. Just because an individual maybe inclined to act in a particular way, doesn't mean they can't channel that 'energy' into something constructive.

Are you certain they can choose? In order to make the right choice, one must have at least the clear difinitions of what's right and wrong. I don't think those people have.

jonathan7

04-20-2008, 09:57 AM

Are you certain they can choose? In order to make the right choice, one must have at least the clear difinitions of what's right and wrong. I don't think those people have.

Perhaps, it is obviously hard to generalise, and depends on the individuals, involved as to their definitions of right and wrong.

Jae Onasi

04-20-2008, 10:01 AM

Try being born and growing up realizing that the -only- thing that gets you off is a child. There is always an excuse, and I'd wager that the majority of the people are pedophiles from birth. People want to be close to something, and they want sex. When a child is the only thing that can feed that... you get pedophiles.
.

It's irrelevant if they realize the only thing that gets them off is a child. It's still wrong. I'm sorry for whatever damaged their systems so that they don't have appropriate sex drives, but it's still wrong. Why? A child can't choose to have sex or not sex in the case of pedophiles, and a child's sexual organs are not developed enough at younger ages to even have sex. If you have sex with a younger child, you damage their internal organs. That doesn't even begin to address the psychological damage done of forcing a child to have sex.

Yeah, we humans in general want sex, but it needs to be in the appropriate context. Pedophiles don't get the right to indulge their 'needs' at the expense of a child's health and safety. Sorry, but their 'right' to be horny doesn't override my kids', or any kids', rights to an upbringing safe from being damaged by these predators. Their actions are reprehensible and they need to be stopped from harming children.

Sabretooth

04-20-2008, 10:46 AM

Sorry, but their 'right' to be horny doesn't override my kids', or any kids', rights to an upbringing safe from being damaged by these predators.
While I don't want to be part of this debate on paedophilia, I only wish to express that the question arises as to just how one can define if a right overrides another. How can it be reasonably judged that a man's right to sexual satisfaction is higher or lower than that of a child to be raised in a safe and sound environment?

JD-Rom

04-20-2008, 10:53 AM

Er, shouldn't this thread be in Kavar's Corner? I assume that paedophilia is a serious enough topic to debate and discuss over, no?

jonathan7

04-20-2008, 10:58 AM

While I don't want to be part of this debate on paedophilia, I only wish to express that the question arises as to just how one can define if a right overrides another. How can it be reasonably judged that a man's right to sexual satisfaction is higher or lower than that of a child to be raised in a safe and sound environment?

You gotta be kidding! For the same reason rape is wrong; an individual in a western country should be allowed to think and feel what they want, however as soon as they act in a way that affects another they come under the juristiction of the government and judicary. So for the same reason I do not agree with mob mentality going after pedophiles, I do not allow a pedophile to abuse a child; perhaps I'm an inherrantly repressive and narrowminded individual, but I happen to believe a child should have the right not to be sexually abused!

Sabretooth

04-20-2008, 11:10 AM

I happen to believe a child should have the right not to be sexually abused!
Agreed, but the question is, should a person not have a right to fulfil his sexual desires? And if he should, and these two rights overlap, which should override the other (if at all) and on what basis?

jonathan7

04-20-2008, 11:16 AM

Agreed, but the question is, should a person not have a right to fulfil his sexual desires? And if he should, and these two rights overlap, which should override the other (if at all) and on what basis?

Sex should be consensual, when it is not an individual does not have the right to fullfill their 'sexual' needs. We live in a society that seems to think that just because you 'feel' something it should give you the right to do it. With the same logic applied, if I'm a serial killer, why shouldn't I be allowed to go and kill someone, as that is how I get my sexual satisfaction. The problem with modern society, at least as it seems to me, is most people think they should be allowed to do whatever they like, and treat others how ever they like; however when they are treated the same way by someone else in the say way they have treated others they moan, get hurt and angry. Socrates made the point I'm trying to make along time ago and far more elequontly; "Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others". That is of course the negative; Jesus articulated it as a positive 'Love your neighbours as yourself'.

DarthJebus05

04-20-2008, 12:59 PM

Er, shouldn't this thread be in Kavar's Corner? I assume that paedophilia is a serious enough topic to debate and discuss over, no?

I never intended for this to be a full out discussion, thats why I put it in the other board.

I like my Sunkist (a orange soda/fanta drink). I always have a urge to go get a can out of the fridge. I resist that urge by thinking about what other drinks I could be drinking, so I don't crave Sunkist anymore.

As I've never been a pedophile and don't know what they're thinking, but why can't they think about adults instead of children like I do with my Sunkist?

They expect others to help them. We can't help them, they have to help themselves.

mur'phon

04-20-2008, 01:42 PM

As I've never been a pedophile and don't know what they're thinking, but why can't they think about adults instead of children like I do with my Sunkist?

Bad example, try asking yourself why you can't think about guys like you think about girls.(If you are homosexual, ask the same question the other way round)

Corinthian

04-20-2008, 02:58 PM

Wow...a debate about the morality of raping children. I just lost a big notch of respect for this forum. What the hell is wrong with you people? You don't have a 'right' to fulfill your sexual desires! That's a desire, and as we all know, nobody gets everything they want. On the other hand, getting raped is a clear violation of your rights, and given that a child is not developed sufficiently to give consent, sex with a child is always rape. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go vomit.

mimartin

04-20-2008, 03:36 PM

Agreed, but the question is, should a person not have a right to fulfill his sexual desires?Certainly, but like anything else that right stops when it violates anotherís rights. So they do not completely sexual fulfillment, they can get over it. Life is not about getting all your desires fulfilled. Life involves disappointments. How many people actual have their sexual desires fulfilled? Why would his or her desire outweigh the right everybody has to be a child? Protect those that cannot protect (or will not protect themselves), like children and the elderly, is the job of everyone within a society.

Wow...a debate about the morality of raping children. What debate? There is no argument known to man, that would make me even give me reason to pause on my belief that is the sickest form abuse known to man. Anyone that would take advantage of an innocentís trust or abuse those that cannot protect themselves is the dredge of society. They do not deserve our sympathy they deserve our wrath. Our sympathy should be reserved for their victims.

jonathan7

04-20-2008, 03:43 PM

What debate? There is no argument known to man, that would make me even give me reason to pause on my belief that is the sickest form abuse known to man. Anyone that would take advantage of an innocentís trust or abuse those that cannot protect themselves is the dredge of society. They do not deserve our sympathy they deserve our wrath. Our sympathy should be reserved for their victims.

I shall quote myself.

once someone has offended, I think they should be brought to account for their actions and not given the chance to re-offend.

Pedophelia and Rape are probably the two worst crimes one human can purpetrate on another (as well as murdering the child of a parent). And those who do such things should be locked up for the safety of society however....

Forgiveness is vital as the alternative is hate and consider what that does; Bitterness, blame anger and hatred; for humans hatred only destroys the hater; the object of their hatred is either unaware or doesnít care that they are hated. People should let go of negative emotions such as these; it will only lead down a dark path, as the hater will only become the hated after they do that which caused them to hate in the first place. It only forms a destructive circle.

Personally I suspect pedophiles are a mixture of genes, nurture and environment. We should be careful not to dehumanise, these poor individuals as while their crimes are repugnant they are still people, often who themsevles were abused as children.

mimartin

04-20-2008, 03:58 PM

Let me rephrase, nothing said by anyone will make me feel sorry for someone that violated a child. I do feel sorry for those that are attracted to child, yet overcome their urge to harm a child.

I have no hate towards anyone. Forgiveness is fine and something I strongly believe in. Iím all for forgiving even a pedophile, however forgiving has nothing to do with forgetting. Forgiving also does not mean the pedophile has to be released from prison. They can be forgiven, yet still be kept off the streets where they cannot harm another child.

Jae Onasi

04-20-2008, 04:30 PM

For those of you who've been posting here already and as a result might not see my note in the first post that I just added, please read. This in no way means it's a problem right now. I'm taking pre-emptive action to prevent potential problems down the road.

Pedophilia is a very challenging subject for a PG-13 site. Be careful about how descriptive you get about actions--if it's too descriptive it will be deleted, and if you abuse that you will get sanctioned. Do not link to sites promoting pedophilia, or other inappropriate sites.

The staff will make the judgment call on what's appropriate. If you have any questions about whether a post or link will be allowed, please PM one of us and we'll be happy to look it over and work with you on it. If you feel a post has gone over the line, PLEASE use the 'report post' function--that is the single fastest way for most of us to get the notification of a problem post.

This is a public forum. If you happen to post something here that can get you in legal hot water, I'm not going to be sorry one bit if the authorities come knocking on your door.

Yes, I know some of this sounds strict, but there is very little wiggle room with this particular subject.

Thanks.

Tommycat

04-20-2008, 10:46 PM

Pedophelia is in the same category as rape for a good reason. It is having intimate relations with someone who is either unwilling or unable to give consent. Having relations with an incapacitated person is rape, because the person isn't able to give consent. A child is not able to give consent as their rights are restricted. They are not independant.

Arcesious

04-21-2008, 12:48 AM

Yes, I know some of this sounds strict, but there is very little wiggle room with this particular subject.

Exactly why I'm not intending on discussing it in detail... I'll only say that I agree that it is not their right to do such things to a child just because they are a pedophile and that is their sexual instinct to do so...

Bee Hoon

04-21-2008, 04:08 AM

Sorry, but their 'right' to be horny doesn't override my kids', or any kids', rights to an upbringing safe from being damaged by these predators. Their actions are reprehensible and they need to be stopped from harming children.QFT.

Agreed, but the question is, should a person not have a right to fulfil his sexual desires? And if he should, and these two rights overlap, which should override the other (if at all) and on what basis?Put yourself in the child's shoes. One on hand, you have someone who just wants pleasure, and on the other, you're looking at permanent emotional scars.

Web Rider

04-21-2008, 05:14 AM

I believe that it is possible to change your sexual preferences if you really put your mind to it. I don't buy that people who love children are born with some sort of gene that makes them love people under the age of 12. At best, I think there might be some inherent attraction to the immature look, but that can be found in adults, there are indeed adults who still look child-like.

I think that they do have a right to be attracted to children if they so feel that they do, but in the same context, they must understand that the law says that children are incapable of making such kinds of sexual decisions. And therefore, much as you may be attracted to kids, such a relationship is never going to happen.

I mean, my grandpa and my mother were 10 years apart, she was 15 at the time they met. Sure, things were different back in the 1930's and 40's, but the point is really that sometimes you just have work within societal bounds.

But people who molest kids, there's just no excuse for that, it is, in short, the inability to control yourself when you see the thing that turns you on. If a hot girl who's 25 walks down the street, it is called rape if you do the nasty without her consent. The same thing applies to kids, since kids can't give consent, it is always bad.

I may, as much as anyone, accept that there is a possibility to be truly attracted to children, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or approve of it or even tolerate it.

True_Avery

04-21-2008, 05:49 AM

It's irrelevant if they realize the only thing that gets them off is a child. It's still wrong. I'm sorry for whatever damaged their systems so that they don't have appropriate sex drives, but it's still wrong. Why? A child can't choose to have sex or not sex in the case of pedophiles, and a child's sexual organs are not developed enough at younger ages to even have sex. If you have sex with a younger child, you damage their internal organs. That doesn't even begin to address the psychological damage done of forcing a child to have sex.

Yeah, we humans in general want sex, but it needs to be in the appropriate context. Pedophiles don't get the right to indulge their 'needs' at the expense of a child's health and safety. Sorry, but their 'right' to be horny doesn't override my kids', or any kids', rights to an upbringing safe from being damaged by these predators. Their actions are reprehensible and they need to be stopped from harming children.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not say that pedophiles should have a free ticket due to a problem they have. I simply said that it is a problem worth pitying.

I pity a man who kills his wife and is going to end up in jail for the rest of his life. I pity the kid who gets drunk and drives his car into another car, killing someone else. I pity the woman that gets over run by stress and kills her children. I pity the people who can only grow an emotional and physical attachment to a child.

No matter how sick it may sound, put yourself in the shoes of both sides of a problem. Both the victim and the attacker.

The victim gets the sympathy and love due to them being... well... the victim. Obviously.

The pedophile is a pedophile due to birth, upbringing, life experience, all of the above, etc. No matter how freakishly sick their activities are, I still feel pity for them. It is easy to say "Just don't do it. Just avoid it." to a pedophile, but putting that into action is harder done than said.

Yes it goes over natural rights. Yes it scars people. Yes it hurts and kills many. I am not denying that. What I am saying is that these people can only get off to children. No matter how sick that may be, that is how it is. Sex, both physical and mental, is a hard thing for one to resist their entire life. Lock them up and throw away the key, or get try and get them help... but from the information I know, curing pedophilia is a very long process that very few end up succeeding in.

That is something worth pitying. Someone who is unfortunate enough to grab one of many short straws of life and get thrown in with the rest of us.

Does that mean that pedophiles are any less of a problem? No, it doesn't.

Let me rephrase, nothing said by anyone will make me feel sorry for someone that violated a child. I do feel sorry for those that are attracted to child, yet overcome their urge to harm a child.

I have no hate towards anyone. Forgiveness is fine and something I strongly believe in. Iím all for forgiving even a pedophile, however forgiving has nothing to do with forgetting. Forgiving also does not mean the pedophile has to be released from prison. They can be forgiven, yet still be kept off the streets where they cannot harm another child.
That sums up by thoughts very well.

I feel sorry for them in the same way I feel sorry for someone with anger issue that attacks someone. Sure, they have a probably worth pitying, but that doesn't override the fact they attacked someone.

I believe that it is possible to change your sexual preferences if you really put your mind to it.
I have experience, a number of friends and family, and life accounts that say otherwise. Some people may be able to move around, but I'd say to many of them that they are simply in denial, or trying desperately to conform to a social standard.

I believe for most people that willingly changing your sexual preference is about as easy as willing yourself to have different colored skin. Sure, you can put yourself into denial or use paint... but that doesn't change the fact you can't will your skin to be blue.

That, however, is a different topic.

I think that they do have a right to be attracted to children if they so feel that they do, but in the same context, they must understand that the law says that children are incapable of making such kinds of sexual decisions. And therefore, much as you may be attracted to kids, such a relationship is never going to happen.
Find me a pedophile that would say that they are happy to have the "right" to only be attracted to children, only be able to get off to children, and only feel a close bond towards children. Find me a pedophile that would gladly welcome being a pedophile again if they could be born anew. Find me a pedophile that would outright refuse an insta-cure to their sexual preference.

The "Well, they do it because they want to" argument falls flat on its face when you realize that many of them don't want it. Who would want to only be attracted to something that would cause them to become social outcasts, lead them to jail, and then lead to the very high probability of being killed in prison? Pedophiles are the most highly murdered people of any inmates at a prison. The are quite possibly the most hated people in our society.

Even if you do somehow restrain yourself, if you've been caught before then your life is -over-. Nobody is going to want to hire you. Nobody is going to want to live near you. You'll be an outcast for the rest of your natural life and beyond.

And if you do restrain yourself forever... then what? You are still attracted to children. How do you have a normal relationship with someone your age when they are not someone you can be attracted to? You would never be able to have children, and you might not ever tell your partner if fear of them snitching on you and/or leaving you. There have been cases of supposedly cured pedophiles molesting their children years and years later, after being with a spouse for a long time.

I would put money on the bet that the list of pedophiles that would refuse to be "normal" is very small. I would put money on the bet that very few people willingly let themselves become abhorred outcasts of society by willing themselves to be attracted to children.

I believe many of them do understand the laws. That is why they try to avoid being caught by kidnapping and/or turning the child submissive to them. It is quite obvious that it is illegal. If it wasn't, then they wouldn't have to be so secret about it.

Tommycat

04-21-2008, 07:02 AM

I'll use another group with a similar degree of addiction, but different area. It is one I know well.

Alchoholism is a strong desire to drink and in fact become an actual dependance. After a long enough time you get physically ill when you are deprived of it. Once the problem is identified, you can live with it, get help, or demand that society just accept you as you are. Alchoholics when they realize they have a problem generally try to get help. They join a group and help eachother avoid the temptation and council newer members on how to remain clean. They don't form groups to share secret desires, and contemplate how to get away with it.

Perhaps that's the real problem. They don't make an attempt at getting better. Instead pedophiles work counter to that. They want society to change it's rules to allow it. That's probably where my lack of sympathy for them comes from.

mur'phon

04-21-2008, 07:53 AM

They don't make an attempt at getting better.

Really? So all those trying to find a wife or something else aren't really trying. The fact that they often don't seek prefessional help might have something to with the way they are stigmatized.

Tommycat

04-21-2008, 08:28 AM

Really? So all those trying to find a wife or something else aren't really trying. The fact that they often don't seek prefessional help might have something to with the way they are stigmatized.
No, they aren't. Step one: Admit you have a problem. Keeping that from even your wife and internalizing means you aren't really admitting you have a problem. Step two is getting help with your addiction. Some might hit step 1, but never go beyond that.

mur'phon

04-21-2008, 08:42 AM

Would you tell others about your problem considering the consequences?

Tommycat

04-21-2008, 09:29 AM

Would you tell others about your problem considering the consequences?
ABSOLUTELY! When I had my drug problem I DID in fact tell people I had a problem. I told them that I needed help. I got counceling, and while I haven't been to a meeting in a while, I've been clean and sober for 9 years. And drug addiction could have cost me my clearance. Meaning I would lose my job. It is never an easy decision to admit to others you have a problem. But until you make that decision, you won't get the help you need.

Jae Onasi

04-21-2008, 10:45 AM

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not say that pedophiles should have a free ticket due to a problem they have. I simply said that it is a problem worth pitying.I most certainly did not misunderstand, or I wouldn't have said "I'm sorry for whatever damaged their systems so that they don't have appropriate sex drives". You're the one who said if you were in the same boat you'd probably end up in jail. An aberrant sex drive doesn't give someone a free pass to destroy the lives of others. It's not like pedophiles wake up one day and say "OMG, I just learned it's a crime to molest a child!! What am I going to do now?" Molesters know long before they even perpetrate their crime(s) that it's wrong.

I pity a man....I pity the people who can only grow an emotional and physical attachment to a child.I pity what got them to that point, because it's usually bad. However, they had the choice to commit or not commit their crimes. There are times when my kids drive me up a wall because we're all having horrible days and are stressed out. I could choose to hurt them, or I could choose to walk away or send them to their rooms until I regain control. I choose the latter for both their sake and mine.

A pedophile has to make a lot of choices along the way to get to the actual act with a child. He could stop at anyone of those points and get help. If he or she can use a computer to lure children, s/he can use a computer to get help online, too.

There's a huge difference between showing someone pity and absolving them of responsibility. I can pity them, but I will still hold them accountable for their actions.

No matter how sick it may sound, put yourself in the shoes of both sides of a problem. Both the victim and the attacker.I can understand them. I don't _agree_ with them. I refuse to allow them to avoid the consequences of their actions.

The pedophile is a pedophile due to birth, upbringing, life experience, all of the above, etc. No matter how freakishly sick their activities are, I still feel pity for them. It is easy to say "Just don't do it. Just avoid it." to a pedophile, but putting that into action is harder done than said.
There is help. Pedophiles know it's a crime. They know it's wrong. No one is holding a gun to their heads to go have sex with a child. They can choose to get help or they can choose to commit crimes. Too many choose the latter option.

Sex, both physical and mental, is a hard thing for one to resist their entire life.It's hard. It's not impossible.

Lock them up and throw away the key, or get try and get them help... but from the information I know, curing pedophilia is a very long process that very few end up succeeding in.The recidivism rate on pedophilia is awful. Unfortunately pedophiles who won't change their behaviors have to be separated from society in order to protect the innocent. It sucks, yes, but the only other alternative, allowing that person to continue to molest children, is entirely unacceptable. Pity or not, there is no win-win situation with pedophilia--we're having to deal with choosing the lesser of two evils.

I'd love to see a way to identify pedophiles before they commit crimes rather than after. It'd be much better to get them help before they and their potential victims are hurt.

That is something worth pitying. Someone who is unfortunate enough to grab one of many short straws of life and get thrown in with the rest of us.
We all get some breaks and we all get some short straws in lfe. Some get better breaks and some get shorter straws. Life is great sometimes, and life totally sucks sometimes. So I can appreciate their difficulties, but I don't have to agree with their actions in response to their troubles.

Find me a pedophile that would say that they are happy to have the "right" to only be attracted to children, only be able to get off to children, and only feel a close bond towards children. Find me a pedophile that would gladly welcome being a pedophile again if they could be born anew. Find me a pedophile that would outright refuse an insta-cure to their sexual preference.There are websites where people not only accept pedophilia but openly flaunt their choice and want it to be accepted as a mainstream sexual preference. I refuse to give them any advertisement here, but if you're dying to know about it you can PM me.

The "Well, they do it because they want to" argument falls flat on its face when you realize that many of them don't want it. Who would want to only be attracted to something that would cause them to become social outcasts, lead them to jail, and then lead to the very high probability of being killed in prison? Pedophiles are the most highly murdered people of any inmates at a prison. The are quite possibly the most hated people in our society.They do it because they want to satisfy their base desires and don't think they'll get caught. They don't care that the rest of society thinks they're wrong. They are likely the most hated people in society because they prey on the very children who desperately need our protection from physical, mental, and psychological damage.

Even if you do somehow restrain yourself, if you've been caught before then your life is -over-. Nobody is going to want to hire you. Nobody is going to want to live near you. You'll be an outcast for the rest of your natural life and beyond.Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

And if you do restrain yourself forever... then what? You are still attracted to children. So?

jonathan7

04-21-2008, 11:47 AM

I most certainly did not misunderstand, or I wouldn't have said "I'm sorry for whatever damaged their systems so that they don't have appropriate sex drives". You're the one who said if you were in the same boat you'd probably end up in jail. An aberrant sex drive doesn't give someone a free pass to destroy the lives of others. It's not like pedophiles wake up one day and say "OMG, I just learned it's a crime to molest a child!! What am I going to do now?" Molesters know long before they even perpetrate their crime(s) that it's wrong.

Agreed, I will also quote myself from earlier, since the point seemed to have be ignored;

Sex should be consensual, when it is not an individual does not have the right to fullfill their 'sexual' needs. We live in a society that seems to think that just because you 'feel' something it should give you the right to do it. With the same logic applied, if I'm a serial killer, why shouldn't I be allowed to go and kill someone, as that is how I get my sexual satisfaction. The problem with modern society, at least as it seems to me, is most people think they should be allowed to do whatever they like, and treat others how ever they like; however when they are treated the same way by someone else in the say way they have treated others they moan, get hurt and angry. Socrates made the point I'm trying to make along time ago and far more elequontly; "Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others". That is of course the negative; Jesus articulated it as a positive 'Love your neighbours as yourself'.

I pity what got them to that point, because it's usually bad. However, they had the choice to commit or not commit their crimes. There are times when my kids drive me up a wall because we're all having horrible days and are stressed out. I could choose to hurt them, or I could choose to walk away or send them to their rooms until I regain control. I choose the latter for both their sake and mine.

A pedophile has to make a lot of choices along the way to get to the actual act with a child. He could stop at anyone of those points and get help. If he or she can use a computer to lure children, s/he can use a computer to get help online, too.

There's a huge difference between showing someone pity and absolving them of responsibility. I can pity them, but I will still hold them accountable for their actions.

Agreed, I feel sorry for pedophiles, but once they have offended I do not think they should be given the chance to re-offend. I think by violating a child, they loose the right to their freedoms.

Web Rider

04-21-2008, 12:43 PM

I have experience, a number of friends and family, and life accounts that say otherwise. Some people may be able to move around, but I'd say to many of them that they are simply in denial, or trying desperately to conform to a social standard.

I believe for most people that willingly changing your sexual preference is about as easy as willing yourself to have different colored skin. Sure, you can put yourself into denial or use paint... but that doesn't change the fact you can't will your skin to be blue.
I don't really mean like going from men to women, I mean adjusting what you find attractive. Ie: if you find hairy men attractive, but can't find hairy men around, you can adjust your preferences till you don't like hairy men as much.

Find me a pedophile that would say that they are happy to have the "right" to only be attracted to children, only be able to get off to children, and only feel a close bond towards children. Find me a pedophile that would gladly welcome being a pedophile again if they could be born anew. Find me a pedophile that would outright refuse an insta-cure to their sexual preference.
I'm sure there are some, because some pedophiles are just really twisted people, they are rapists for children. And I'm sure that groups like NAMBALA would probably be able to find you a good list of people who understand that what they want they simply can't have.

The "Well, they do it because they want to" argument falls flat on its face when you realize that many of them don't want it. Who would want to only be attracted to something that would cause them to become social outcasts, lead them to jail, and then lead to the very high probability of being killed in prison? Pedophiles are the most highly murdered people of any inmates at a prison. The are quite possibly the most hated people in our society.
No, that doesn't make any sense at all. You're saying that people who are pedophiles have no ability to keep it in their pants of keep their hands to themselves. I chose not grope girls and slap their butts, people with an attraction to children can chose to do the same. I'm not referring to their sexual orientation, but to their actions. There is no law saying you can't be attracted to children, there are laws however about child pornography and molestation. Be a social outcast? Probably, go to jail? only if you break the law.

Even if you do somehow restrain yourself, if you've been caught before then your life is -over-. Nobody is going to want to hire you. Nobody is going to want to live near you. You'll be an outcast for the rest of your natural life and beyond.
yes, just like all the other people who were unable to control themselves sexually.

And if you do restrain yourself forever... then what? You are still attracted to children. How do you have a normal relationship with someone your age when they are not someone you can be attracted to? You would never be able to have children, and you might not ever tell your partner if fear of them snitching on you and/or leaving you. There have been cases of supposedly cured pedophiles molesting their children years and years later, after being with a spouse for a long time.
You're playing at hypotheticals here. Just as you're not going to know how many people are deterred from crime by the death penalty, as nobody is going to admit to it, you're not going to know which pedophiles started a family, raised their kids well, and never talked about it, because likewise they're not going to admit to it.
Yes, some pedophiles who start a family are unable to control themselves, but since those that are will never admit to being pedophiles, we have no way to know.

I would put money on the bet that the list of pedophiles that would refuse to be "normal" is very small. I would put money on the bet that very few people willingly let themselves become abhorred outcasts of society by willing themselves to be attracted to children.
The same could be said of homosexuals 40+ years ago. Which begs the question of course: does that mean pedophilia is only bad because society says so?

I believe many of them do understand the laws. That is why they try to avoid being caught by kidnapping and/or turning the child submissive to them. It is quite obvious that it is illegal. If it wasn't, then they wouldn't have to be so secret about it.
Er no...those people do not understand the laws.
Lets assume Joe likes women. Joe desires women at all levels, but Joe knows he can't go out and just feel one up in the middle of the mall. So Joe kidnaps and rapes women, or tortures them until they're submissive to him.

Did Joe show an understanding of the law?
No, Joe did not. While he may have showed a partial understanding of the law, he either failed to comprehend the full extent of the law, or simply ignored the fact that kidnapping somebody is against the law. And that molesting/raping them in his home is also against the law, and that forcing them to become submissive is still against the law.

And understanding of the law requires understanding of ALL the laws, not just a few. You still get a ticket for speeding when you're doing 60 in a 45 zone, even if you didn't see the sign.

Rev7

04-21-2008, 11:20 PM

Good job Jebus! I expect that this man was arrested? What a dumb question, of course he was arrested. Sorry. Anyways, one less pedophile on the "streets".

JediRevan

04-26-2008, 11:17 PM

As a mother of two girls and the grandmother of a six year old boy, I would rather see the pedophiles put in with the general population of a prison than kept by themselves. They wouldn't survive long at all in the general population of a prison.

jonathan7

04-26-2008, 11:35 PM

As a mother of two girls and the grandmother of a six year old boy, I would rather see the pedophiles put in with the general population of a prison than kept by themselves. They wouldn't survive long at all in the general population of a prison.

Thats really civilised! It makes about as much sense as responding to a genocide, by commiting genocide, on those who did the first genocide.

mimartin

04-27-2008, 12:14 AM

Thats really civilised! There is nothing civilized about it. It is the order of nature. Look at the first thing JediRevan wrote about that she is a mother and a grandmother, I believe she is putting herself in the shoes of the victims parent or grandparents. She is protecting her young, just like any good parent would do. So it does not have to make logical sense, like a mocking bird protecting its nest by a attacking a two hundred pound man, but it is the way of nature. I cannot say I wouldnít react just as harshly if such an act like that was against someone close to me. I would like to believe that I am above that, but I just donít know.

jonathan7

04-27-2008, 12:19 AM

There is nothing civilized about it. It is the order of nature. Look at the first thing JediRevan wrote about that she is a mother and a grandmother, I believe she is putting herself in the shoes of the victims parent or grandparents. She is protecting her young, just like any good parent would do. So it does not have to make logical sense, like a mocking bird protect its nest by a attacking a two hundred pound man, but it is the way of nature. I cannot say I wouldnít react just as harshly if such an act like that was against someone close to me. I would like to believe that I am above that, but I just donít know.

It is not that pedophilia isn't a horrible crime; it is, and possiby the worst you can commit; but one must be very careful, that you don't become that which you are fighting...

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."

In my opinion you should train yourself not to make very important decisions when angry; otherwise you may well end up doing something you later regret. The whol judicial process should not be built up on emotion or revenge, but justice and the protection of the weak.

Det. Bart Lasiter

04-27-2008, 12:22 AM

Good job Jebus! I expect that this man was arrested? What a dumb question, of course he was arrested.Not necessarily.

JediRevan

04-27-2008, 05:23 PM

Thats really civilised! It makes about as much sense as responding to a genocide, by commiting genocide, on those who did the first genocide.

I wouldn't call it genocide. I would call it justice for the innocent victims and their families. Considering the fact that in some of the prisons there are sex offenders and pedophiles that are actually given drugs for erectile dysfunction and the drugs are being paid for by law abiding citizens that pay taxes.

jonathan7

04-27-2008, 05:49 PM

I wouldn't call it genocide. I would call it justice for the innocent victims and their families. Considering the fact that in some of the prisons there are sex offenders and pedophiles that are actually given drugs for erectile dysfunction and the drugs are being paid for by law abiding citizens that pay taxes.

Justice? Do you really think that say a child murderer being executed or tortured to death in anyway brings back the dead child? In truth all it does is bring you down to their level.

Me from earlier in the discussion;

Forgiveness is vital as the alternative is hate and consider what that does; Bitterness, blame anger and hatred; for humans hatred only destroys the hater; the object of their hatred is either unaware or doesnít care that they are hated. People should let go of negative emotions such as these; it will only lead down a dark path, as the hater will only become the hated after they do that which caused them to hate in the first place. It only forms a destructive circle.

There is a distinction between forgiving and forgetting however; pedophiles should be locked up so they can never re-offend, and as a punishment for what they have done. What your talking about is quite frankly trying to fight evil with evil. Indeed the way your thinking is why the world is such a horrbile place; lets take Isreal and Palestine for example, the innocent die, because neither side can forgive the other, and the anger and resentment, and need for revenge aka 'justice', just leads to more and more suffering.

What your talking about is cold hard revenge; should a pedophile be put to death? That is decision for the staten and not in the bounds of this discussion. What your talking about is cold, hard revenge. Many pedophiles were abused as children; you ever considered that?

Ravnas

04-27-2008, 08:09 PM

I don't see what the problem would be with executing these scum.

Because people like to think that we're above such barbarity, and we aren't. Plus revenge is different from justice. It's one thing to see a murderer,pedophile etc. be put in a maximum security prison for the rest of their lives and have to live with the horrible act they committed(unless they're psychopathic, but that doesn't apply to everyone) but its another thing to just execute someone simply for vengeance's sake.

JediRevan

04-27-2008, 10:12 PM

Putting them in with the general population of a prison would be justice considering some of the inmates in prison do have children, nieces, and nephews. I believe it could be called street justice.

jonathan7

04-27-2008, 10:28 PM

I don't see what the problem would be with executing these scum.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression you considered yourself a Christian? Jesus considered these 'scum' so scumful, he died for them same as everyone else.

Lets have a quick review of a few things;

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

"Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger."

So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Corinthian

04-27-2008, 10:34 PM

Your point being...? They still deserve to pay for what they have done. Sure, it won't bring the child or the child's innocence back,~snipped~ these days the worst they have to worry about is prison time, we're not even castrating 'em.

Your inside voice doesn't need to become your forum voice. --Jae

jonathan7

04-27-2008, 10:39 PM

Your point being...? They still deserve to pay for what they have done. Sure, it won't bring the child or the child's innocence back, ~snipped~ these days the worst they have to worry about is prison time, we're not even castrating 'em.

Yeah, I'm sure that is exactly as Jesus would have acted. :giveup:

JediRevan

04-27-2008, 11:05 PM

Justice? Do you really think that say a child murderer being executed or tortured to death in anyway brings back the dead child? In truth all it does is bring you down to their level.

Me from earlier in the discussion;

There is a distinction between forgiving and forgetting however; pedophiles should be locked up so they can never re-offend, and as a punishment for what they have done. What your talking about is quite frankly trying to fight evil with evil. Indeed the way your thinking is why the world is such a horrbile place; lets take Isreal and Palestine for example, the innocent die, because neither side can forgive the other, and the anger and resentment, and need for revenge aka 'justice', just leads to more and more suffering.

What your talking about is cold hard revenge; should a pedophile be put to death? That is decision for the staten and not in the bounds of this discussion. What your talking about is cold, hard revenge. Many pedophiles were abused as children; you ever considered that?

Tell that to the parents of a young girl here in Florida that was kidnapped by a sexual predator. He tortured and then raped her before burying her in his parents back yard. That same pedophile tried to make the jury believe he was illiterate and mentally handicapped. I have to live with the daily dread of another one of these animals moving into my neighborhood near a park where children play or wait for their school bus.
How would you respond if one of these animals attacked your child?

No where in the Old Testament or New Testament is pedophilia condoned. The bible tells us to protect the children because they are gift from God. It doesn't say not to punish those who harm a child.

jonathan7

04-27-2008, 11:13 PM

Tell that to the parents of a young girl here in Florida that was kidnapped by a sexual predator. He tortured and then raped her before burying her in his parents back yard. That same pedophile tried to make the jury believe he was illiterate and mentally handicapped. I have to live with the daily dread of another one of these animals moving into my neighborhood near a park where children play or wait for their school bus.
How would you respond if one of these animals attacked your child?

Why are you presumptious enough to think that I have not been in similar a situation? I am not a parent, however I have seen the effects of both rape and child abuse; both are terrible and I don't think an individual who suffers them ever fully recovers. There is a guy who I know raped one of my best friends, and he's got away with it - now, lets put it like this, if I wanted him to disapear, I would know who to ring up. However, I bear him no malice, my concern is with looking after my friend; and I feel deeply sorry for any individual, that is so twisted that they feel the need to abuse children or rape woman. They should be locked up; but me taking the law into my own hands makes me no different to him.

Also the statistical likelyhood of a Child being kidnapped is extremely long; in the UK the figers are not much different to 50 years ago, however I cannot speak for the US, though I would assume the odds are still very long.

No where in the Old Testament or New Testament is pedophilia condoned. The bible tells us to protect the children because they are gift from God. It doesn't say not to punish those who harm a child.

Please indicate at any point when I said that pedophiles shouldn't be put to justice? Re-read my posts; you may notice that I say they should be locked up and not given the opportunity to re-offend.

Me earlier;

Agreed, I feel sorry for pedophiles, but once they have offended I do not think they should be given the chance to re-offend. I think by violating a child, they loose the right to their freedoms.

JediRevan

04-27-2008, 11:17 PM

Why are you presumptious enough to think that I have not been in similar a situation? I am not a parent, however I have seen the effects of both rape and child abuse; both are terrible and I don't think an individual who suffers them ever fully recovers. There is a guy who I know raped one of my best friends, and he's got away with it - now, lets put it like this, if I wanted him to disapear, I would know who to ring up. However, I bear him no malice, my concern is with looking after my friend; and I feel deeply sorry for any individual, that is so twisted that they feel the need to abuse children or rape woman. They should be locked up; but me taking the law into my own hands makes me no different to him.

Also the statistical likelyhood of a Child being kidnapped is extremely long; in the UK the figers are not much different to 50 years ago, however I cannot speak for the US, though I would assume the odds are still very long.

Not. Children are kidnapped or reported missing on a daily basis in the United States. From what I have read from reports of different countries, the reports of missing or kidnapped children have not dropped drastically in any way, shape, or form.

Any man that would rape a child deserves street justice and nothing less. He is no better than a rabid animal on the loose attacking people.

jonathan7

04-27-2008, 11:21 PM

Any man that would rape a child deserves street justice and nothing less. He is no better than a rabid animal on the loose attacking people.
~snipped and what happens if you happen to have 'street justicied' the wrong guy?

You may also like to note, seeing as you feel the need to try and quote the New and Old Testaments at me, that Jesus said to obey the governing authorities; street justice is not obeying the government; its taking the law into your own hands; which frankly is all you've been talking about since you entered the thread.

EDIT: Also let me clarrify; me arguing that pedophiles should not be put in with the general population of a prison, is not me advocating pedophilia, quite how you can possibly interpret it as such is beyond me. Please also indicate at anypoint where I said the Bible was pro pedophilia; that was a completely illogicall comment.

Pedophiles should be locked up for life; they should however be given due-procces. Also dehumanising anyone is a strictly bad idea; as you only end up doing that to yourself.

JediRevan

04-27-2008, 11:37 PM

~snipped~, and what happens if you happen to have 'street justicied' the wrong guy?

You may also like to note, seeing as you feel the need to try and quote the New and Old Testaments at me, that Jesus said to obey the governing authorities; street justice is not obeying the government; its taking the law into your own hands; which frankly is all you've been talking about since you entered the thread.

EDIT: Also let me clarrify; me arguing that pedophiles should not be put in with the general population of a prison, is not me advocating pedophilia, quite how you can possibly interpret it as such is beyond me. Please also indicate at anypoint where I said the Bible was pro pedophilia; that was a completely illogicall comment.

Pedophiles should be locked up for life; they should however be given due-procces. Also dehumanising anyone is a strictly bad idea; as you only end up doing that to yourself.

No where in any of my posts have I ever stated that anyone in this thread advocates pedophilia. As for acting like a rabid animal or bringing myself down to their level, I am not acting in this manner at all. I may come across as a lioness protecting her cubs but what mother or grandmother wouldn't?

Jae Onasi

04-28-2008, 12:48 AM

OK, folks, let's not promote illegal things like 'street justice'. ;)

Det. Bart Lasiter

04-28-2008, 12:57 AM

OK, folks, let's not promote illegal things like 'street justice'. ;) Sounds like a cop movie. One man. One goal: To avenge his partner. By any means necessary.

Tommycat

04-28-2008, 01:21 AM

I am not a parent
This seems to be a common thread among those that ask for child rapists not being thrown in with the general population. As a parent, I would give my life for my children. I would go without for my child to have. I would do anything for my child to have the peace of mind that the bad person will never come around again.

Edited to add: Yes, I know that this is not very moral of me. I admit that it isn't civilized or proper. Lets face it, it is purely the revenge mentality that leads me to my feelings on this matter. It is that animal side of me that I try to keep bottled up, but will always remain a part of me.

milo

04-28-2008, 01:38 AM

Yeah, I'm sure that is exactly as Jesus would have acted. :giveup:
Actually, yes.

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

:/

JediRevan

04-28-2008, 09:59 AM

The governing authority had allowed these animals back into the mainstream to continue their sick lives.

jonathan7

04-28-2008, 01:05 PM

This seems to be a common thread among those that ask for child rapists not being thrown in with the general population. As a parent, I would give my life for my children. I would go without for my child to have. I would do anything for my child to have the peace of mind that the bad person will never come around again.

Edited to add: Yes, I know that this is not very moral of me. I admit that it isn't civilized or proper. Lets face it, it is purely the revenge mentality that leads me to my feelings on this matter. It is that animal side of me that I try to keep bottled up, but will always remain a part of me.

It is not that I do not understand the anger towards pedophiles (or others who commit atrocities) however, purley because you cannot seperate from the emotion of the subject is why you shouldn't allow yourself to make an emotional decision. And as such allow someone else to have juristiction.

To give a satisfactory decision as to the truth it is necessary to be rather an arbitrator than a party to the dispute.

Actually, yes.
Luke 17:2, King James Bible
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

I'll let people draw their own conculsions

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Luke 17
Sin, Faith, Duty
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

7"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "

So, selectively quoting from the worst translation of the Bible and out of context = advocates torture?

~snipped~

Jvstice

04-28-2008, 01:28 PM

And what happens when that's not enough to protect the innocent? Every couple of years in the US, a story gets printed in the paper about some sexual predator who got out of prison then went on a raping and murdering spree. This is usually after society is supposed to have guarantees that the innocent are protected from them by them being locked away, and often committed for mental problems that make them a serious danger to all society.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see unnecessicary cruelty done to criminals. But I'd happily sacrifice 100 pedophiles to save 1 child, or 1 million to save my own. And maybe that's not the best way to be, but it beats ignoring the problem too.

jonathan7

04-28-2008, 01:33 PM

And what happens when that's not enough to protect the innocent? Every couple of years in the US, a story gets printed in the paper about some sexual predator who got out of prison then went on a raping and murdering spree. This is usually after society is supposed to have guarantees that the innocent are protected from them by them being locked away, and often committed for mental problems that make them a serious danger to all society.

Defending yourself is different to mob justice, and what you are talking about is the failure of the Prison service; if that individual has been put through due process and escaped; an individual can do what they deem necassary to defend themsleves and their children.

There is however a big reason to have the pedophiles, rapists and serial killers kept seperatly; you can put them in a maximum security facility.

However I will never advocate mob justice as what happens if you get the wrong guy?

Do you for example agree with lynching? If you do go get yourself a white hat; I'm sure you can find some fellow people who think along the same lines...

Jvstice

04-28-2008, 01:40 PM

No. I don't agree with mob justice for the very reason of sometimes getting the wrong guy. It's stupid to not care whether it's the innocent or guilty that have reason to fear law or retribution.

On the other hand though, I don't see why you put so much effort into defending the guilty in with those who are mistakenly accused. If they are guilty, punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Christ preached personal forgiveness. That has nothing to do with a government's duties. A government's job first and foremost is to make sure that their citizens are kept safe and able to live their lives.

When other people threaten their lives, its' a government's job to intervene to protect those that can't protect themselves. If those individuals who want to harm others dont' take warning by being separated from those they want to harm, and still seek to do more harm, then what? You've pretty much ruled out their being able to act effectively to deal with a continuing threat.

jonathan7

04-28-2008, 01:47 PM

On the other hand though, I don't see why you put so much effort into defending the guilty in with those who are mistakenly accused. If they are guilty, punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Christ preached personal forgiveness. That has nothing to do with a government's duties. A government's job first and foremost is to make sure that their citizens are kept safe and able to live their lives.

When other people threaten their lives, its' a government's job to intervene to protect those that can't protect themselves. If those individuals who want to harm others dont' take warning by being separated from those they want to harm, and still seek to do more harm, then what? You've pretty much ruled out their being able to act effectively to deal with a continuing threat.

Please indicate at any point in the thread when I have said pedophiles shouldn't be locked up; please indicate at any point in the thread when I said due process shouldn't occur.

~snipped~

Here it is; Pedophiles, rapists and serial killers should be LOCKED UP AND NEVER LET OUT. However; justice is not about revenge, or doing to the crinimal that which they did to another. Justice is about punishment and securing society.

The above indivuals do hateful things, and should be imprisioned for the protection of society, on the other hand, that does not give society the right to treat them less than humanly, as how else are the above going to change?

N.b. even if an individual has 'reformed' they should still be locked up, as once that crime has been commited they should not be given the opportunity to re-ofend. Hope that clarifys.

mimartin

04-28-2008, 01:52 PM

It is not that I do not understand the anger towards pedophiles (or others who commit atrocities) however, purley because you cannot seperate from the emotion of the subject is why you shouldn't allow yourself to make an emotional decision. And as such allow someone else to have juristiction. People that have children or someone they loved victimized in such away are not suppose to let emotion into the decision making? Is that even possible? How would anyone possibility avoid being angry at the perpetrator? How would anyone not feel the unwarranted guilt of not being able to protect a loved one? Good people will do evil things in order to destroy the evil that has harmed their family. Hopefully, they never get the chance and the real authorities handle the problem and get the criminal off the streets. Is it right to take justice into your own hands? No. Is it dangerous? Yes, what if the vigilante justice gets the wrong person. However, I am not going to fault anyone for protecting children and I donít know what I would do in their place and neither does anyone else.

Jvstice

04-28-2008, 02:03 PM

I'd agree that that society sholdn't have the right to treat them less humanely if it's just a matter of revenge.

I'd disagree with the premise that society has no right to treat them inhumanely under all circumstances. Bill Clinton once said that if you keep trying the same things that don't work to solve your problems, and never learn to try something new, it's a sign of insanity.

When I was 11 in 1984, a drunk driver smashed into our car, killing half my family. The driver of the other car was sentenced for manslaughter, a crime that has a 30 year sentence under Florida law, where I grew up. About 7 years later, I heard that he was resentenced for the same crime. About 5 years ago, I was going through my dad's attic since he gave me permission to get what I wanted, and got his deposition of the events. In it, my dad said that the guy that ran into our car had already been sentenced for the same crime before he ran into our car as well.

This was in 1984, before there was a wide concensus in our society that our prison's have major systemic flaws. Things have worsened, and it's not just a minority that see a problem any more.

In the 1980's and 1990's the U.S. had more people locked away than any other nation but the Soviet Union. I kind of think the answer is not simply to build bigger prisons, nor is it to simply have the law forgiving murderers over the heads of their victims' families.

Our justice system is broken. It's not protecting our citizens and hasn't for a long time. What that means should be done, I'm not sure either. But maybe throwing the pedos in with the other criminals is a step in the right direction. We wouldn't be responding to monsterous acts by becoming monsters that way, and they wouldnt' be doing that again soon even with our prisons' revolving doors.

Corinthian

04-28-2008, 02:08 PM

Justice and Vengeance are two sides of the same coin. Besides, it's not like their isn't precedent for rape being punishable by execution.

jonathan7

04-28-2008, 02:09 PM

I'd agree that that society sholdn't have the right to treat them less humanely if it's just a matter of revenge.

I'd disagree with the premise that society has no right to treat them inhumanely under all circumstances. Bill Clinton once said that if you keep trying the same things that don't work to solve your problems, and never learn to try something new, it's a sign of insanity.

When I was 11 in 1984, a drunk driver smashed into our car, killing half my family. The driver of the other car was sentenced for manslaughter, a crime that has a 30 year sentence under Florida law, where I grew up. About 7 years later, I heard that he was resentenced for the same crime. About 5 years ago, I was going through my dad's attic since he gave me permission to get what I wanted, and got his deposition of the events. In it, my dad said that the guy that ran into our car had already been sentenced for the same crime before he ran into our car as well.

This was in 1984, before there was a wide concensus in our society that our prison's have major systemic flaws. Things have worsened, and it's not just a minority that see a problem any more.

In the 1980's and 1990's the U.S. had more people locked away than any other nation but the Soviet Union. I kind of think the answer is not simply to build bigger prisons, nor is it to simply have the law forgiving murderers over the heads of their victims' families.

Our justice system is broken. It's not protecting our citizens and hasn't for a long time. What that means should be done, I'm not sure either. But maybe throwing the pedos in with the other criminals is a step in the right direction. We wouldn't be responding to monsterous acts by becoming monsters that way, and they wouldnt' be doing that again soon even with our prisons' revolving doors.

I am sorry to hear about what happened you in 1984. I would be of the opinion that the above man should have been imprisoned for a rather large ammount of time; never allowed a driving licence back, and if ever caught again would be sent back to prison for the remainder of his life. Do not think me being soft on justice, but I have certain standards, and also think many who are criminals are those who are societies most unloved both before and after they commit their crimes.

On the prisons side; I still do not think the worst criminals should be kept in the normal population for a reason as hinted above; if they are in a normal prison population it is easier to escape.

Justice and Vengeance are two sides of the same coin. Besides, it's not like their isn't precedent for rape being punishable by execution.

Firstly my argumentation against the death penalty isn't that I de facto disagree but because there have been many examples of the wrong man being executed. Pardoning someone who has been killed for something they haven't done I'm sure doesn't bother them too much.

Secondly as a Christian, I still do not see how you can support personal vengeance, as it is taking the law into your own hands. Which at least to me seems to be what most people here are advocating. The state taking vengeance is a slightyl different matter; however I do not think eye for eye in reality solves anything, and it also goes very counter to the teachings of a certain Jesus.

Here are the definitions from my Oxford Ultimate Word finder...

Justice: 1. just conduct 2. fairness 3 the exercise of authoriy in the maintenance of right.

Vegeance: punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for wrong to oneself or person to a person.

Jvstice

04-28-2008, 02:37 PM

TBH, I really see it as a matter of whatever it takes to end a threat. It's not really about making someone pay enough, or being too merciful, or not showing enough mercy in our legal system. But will it end the threat without becoming a new threat to other innocents (by false accusations, presumptions of guilt, and the like)?

Should punishment be humane? In that context, absolutely to the extent that it doesn't interfere with protecting the people, and sending the message that this type of predatory behavior on children will not be tolerated. If people really are genetically predispositioned to pedophilia we're not doing any children they might have any favors by allowing people sexually attracted to underage children to breed and to raise people they can abuse with government sanction because they are their own children.

Further, if they are predispositioned to become predators because of a cycle of abuse, that also should make them ineligable to raise families.

And if being humane to predators is shown not to be effective, we shouldn't hesitate to execute them for the same reason. We should keep looking until we find something that works. And no avenue should remain unexplored if it offers a possible solution.

A government's first priority has to be to protect its people who are not looking to harm its other citizens. Otherwise there is no rule of law, nor point to observing the rules of society for a vast majority of those who live in any society.

Samuel Dravis

04-28-2008, 02:53 PM

There's been a discussion on the merits of retributive punishment (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=177193) in Kavar's before. While it is mostly about execution, some of the ideas within may be useful here.

Corinthian

04-28-2008, 03:46 PM

I have no intention of taking the law into my own personal hands. That's what the Gub'ment is for.

Jae Onasi

04-28-2008, 06:59 PM

Temp-closed due to reports--I'll review when I get home unless another mod gets to it sooner.

Edit: I'm re-opening after doing a fair amount of clean-up. If your posts disappeared it's because they got moderated.

Here's what I don't want to see. I don't want to see anyone advocating vigilantism, tempting as it may be. I don't want to see people calling each other animals--that's flame-baiting. Don't snipe at each other without first reading (and maybe re-reading) what someone else has said--you might find that you're mad about something you thought the person said when they didn't say it at all.

This is an emotionally charged topic--take a deep breath and think about how it would feel to be on the receiving end of your post before you hit the 'reply' button, please.