Daytona> I am confused....You say you are INDIFERENT towards the GRF but your profile holds a Greek Royal Shield?
LUCIEN: when you state "not because they can find a single,factually correct,argument against the RF" Dont you think that, among others, the incredible and unjustified meddling of, for example, Queen Frederika in Greek politics is a very STRONG one? What would, for instance, the Swedes say if, suddenly, Queen Silvia started critizising or even worse, directly interfering in Swedish politics? I think that goes beyond Leftists or Rightists....It's highly (and WAS at the time) inappropriate and misplaced for a Royal, in a Constitutional, and Democratic Monarchy to do so. Dont you think?

The chances of restoring the royal regime are from slim to none.As i have explained again Greeks are indifferent towards the royal family,they have only a few followers.Lets not forget the coup d etat that was supported by the former king,something which led to the 1974s referendum and the new constitution for restoring democracy.Fatal mistakes that Greeks dont forget.

__________________There is but only one truly philosophical problem and that is suicide.
Albert Camus,The myth of Sisyphus

DAYTONA....With all due respect, If the huge majority of the Greeks would be INDIFFERENT to the Royal Family, nobody would even know who Konstantinos is, or Anne Marie, or Frederika, Pavlos, MC, the Colonels, the Referendum etc etc etc. Nobody would give a damm about them, if they go into Greece or out, if they are alive or not, starting by the Greek Goverment. My experience, talking to either expats here in SA or to Greeks in Greece is that they may like or dislike the RF, but INDIFFERENCE is rarely in the 'menu'......And again, I am puzzled on your Greek Royal Coat of Arms....Is that how you show your own 'indifference' towards them???

Frothy,King Constantine II has never signed any instrument of abdication,so therefore,he is still regarded as a king,albeit,a non-reigning one.

As to King Constantine being unpopular in Greece,I believe that he was never given the opportunity to prove himself.If the colonels had not taken over at all,then Greece could possibly be a very well-run country today,not a banana republic that has rampant corruption & active terrorist organisations.He is possibly very unlike his father.

Aidan.

In what way is he so much different then his father? I assume you are referring to the wy he would deal with Greek politics, so I am just curious as I do not know anything about King Paul I's role (except that his wife was rather over powering).

I would like to present the balanced account on the demise of the monarchy in Greece by Greek-born, US-based, physician and academic C A Hassapoyannes MD PhD.

"In general, many Greeks tend to pontificate making statements that are emotionally loaded, thus biased. For example, some argue that, since ancient times, the Hellenes were not used to monarchy as a form of government. This is incorrect. In ancient Greece, many city-states were kingdoms, others were republics but both thrived and prospered. Other Greeks would argue that the members of the royal family are "foreigners" [xenoi, ξένοι], but this is also a flawed argument. The Bernadottes of Sweden are French, the Bourbons of Spain are French, the Windsors of the United Kingdom are Hanoverians, the Glucksburgs of Norway are Danish/Germanic and so on. What is true is that all the above dynasts were assimilated into these nations, while the Glucksburg-Becks were never hellenized except for King Constantine and his children, but that was too late and too little.

In the first half of the 20th century, there was the rift and feud between the Anglophile Venizelists and the pro-German Royalists, the National Schism that contributed to the Micrasiatiki Catastrophe. However, upon the return of King George II after the referendum of 1946, and due to the communist threat, the prospects for the monarchy seemed good. During the peak of the civil war (1947-1949), Frederika, then Princess Diadoch (and as of April 1947, upon George II’s death, Queen) showed tremendous bravery by visiting the war-front (!), earning herself immense popularity. Thereafter, however, questions about the distribution of the Queen’s Fund, the Court’s style, which was comparable to that of western European states but absurd for a despairing country (from 1955 to 1963, 1.5 million Greeks emigrated to Australia, Canada and Germany) and, last but not least, Queen Frederika’s unconstitutional mingling with state affairs earned her gradually the wrath of the people. Most notorious was the royal couple’s unilateral decision to proceed with a state visit to the United Kingdom in 1963. In brief, after a physical attack by an imprisoned Greek communist’s British wife, Mrs. Betty Abatielou, on Queen Frederika, during a private visit of hers to attend a Kent relative’s wedding in London, near Claridge’s hotel, in 1962, the Greek government, fearing demonstrations and further damage to Greece’s image, had advised postponement. The state visit went on with unprecedented demonstrations outside Buckingham Palace and riots in the streets of London, so much so that the Greek people’soutcry prompted the resignation of premier Constantine Karamanlis. In late 1963, the latter was self-exiled to Paris.

King Paul, in contrast, was quiet, easy-going and well liked by the people but Queen Frederika left a lasting negative impression, a stigma on the monarchy! Spyridon Markezinis’ acclaimed History of Modern Greece gives an authoritative account of her attitude and deeds (Note: Markezinis was a right-wing politician and an avowed royalist). The Palace earned even the wrath of right-wing prime-minister and, later, President of the Republic Constantine Karamanlis (premier 1955-63, 1974-80; president 1980-85, 1990-95). Karamanlis, in fact, was the man who pulled the carpet under King Constantine’s feet in 1974.

King Constantine went to a good school, Anavryta, but his education was not furthered. Going to college was not de rigueur for royalty back then, but he was not enthusiastic about scholarly matters either. Instead, he excelled in sportsmanship which, along with a robust appearance, earned him popularity among the extremes of society, ie, the social elite and the peasants. His image was enhanced by his marriage to youthful, astonishingly good looking and elegant Anne-Marie of Denmark, who captivated the Greeks overnight! Ill-prepared as he was at age 25, he took a series of unpopular and barely constitutional steps (summer of 1965). The then prime-minister George Papandreou, a centrist and fierce anticommunist who had been elected with 54% of the popular vote, was forced to resign. The resultant political crisis, known as Iouliana (July 1965), formed the substrate for the coup d’ etat of 1967. Alas, the aging Papandreou had warned him (in paraphrase), “Βασιλεύ [Roy], a disagreement between the Conservative Party and the monarch is a routine family fight, but a conflict between the Democratic Party and the king may be catastrophic.”

Following the fall of the Junta and the restoration of the Republic by the 1974 plebiscite, the image of King Constantine was damaged inadvertently by his attempt, from London in 1977, to instigate a military coup d’ etat, as the late, then prime-minister, Karamanlis indicated in his archives. Finally, the marriage of the King’s eldest son to a person that, in the public eye, is a parvenue and greedy roturiere has turned the former royal family into a target of social contempt and ridicule. Pandora, the satirical columnist of TO VIMA, perhaps the most influential Athenian daily, has coined the nickname Maria-Canella, Canella being many a homely woman’s name and, meaning cinnamon.

The Greeks have always loved άρτον και θεάματα [bread and spectacle] and, of late, following the European integration, economic prosperity and the emergence of a new class of “rich and famous” after Andreas Papandreou’s “socialist" social restructuring, the nation has become obsessed with gossip, glamour and trash TV like every western society. An unprecedented number of Greeks watched Paul’s wedding on Antenna, Hola-type tabloids enjoy an unqualified success and a quasi-journalist gives lessons on royal etiquette, but these phenomena in no way reflect the westernized Greeks’ attitude toward monarchy as a polity. In essence, the issue lies nowadays beyond personalities and personages, and above who did what and when; it is about the concept. In a recent poll, only around 10% of Greeks still favor the monarchy, a meaningless popularity, comparable to the combined 10 +/- % of the traditional and reform communist parties.

It has been argued that, had King Constantine exercised even a trace of his brother-in-law King Juan Carlos of Spain’s wisdom and prudence, there would still be the Kingdom of Greece. Ironically, the fall of King Constantine was precipitated by the monarchy’s own flesh and blood, the conservative party! In a de profundis interview to Thanassis Lalas of TO VIMA’s supplement BHMAgazino, in 2003, Princess Irene said about her brother’s vicissitudes, “Είναι σαν να έρχεται ένας συγγενής στό σπίτι σας και να σας μαχαιρώνει” [“It was like a relative coming to your house and butchering you”].

On balance, there were many a time that the Greek politicians were viciously devious toward the monarchs, but it is also true that the monarchs more often than not treated Greece like a banana republic. At this juncture, all is history and, perhaps, as the wise Irene put it in the same interview, “..... ήταν γραφτό να γίνει ό,τι έγινε” [“..... what happened was destined to happen”]. "

Thank you for your extensive reply Philippe Egalité,as it was an interesting read.

But regarding the recent popularity poll,it must be said that the consecutive greek governments for decades never left one possibility unused to "paint HM and the RF black",especially under incompetent Andreas Papandreou,talking about "using" Greece as if it were a banana republic.......he was second to none,and never taken serious outside his own circle,as to them that was the rigeur to fill pockets and steal Greece blind in an unprecedented way.

I've never acknowledged the 1974 "referendum",not that it makes a difference,as your post states,all is history.

"Thank you for your extensive reply Philippe Egalité,as it was an interesting read.

But regarding the recent popularity poll,it must be said that the consecutive greek governments for decades never left one possibility unused to "paint HM and the RF black",especially under incompetent Andreas Papandreou,talking about "using" Greece as if it were a banana republic.......he was second to none,and never taken serious outside his own circle,as to them that was the rigeur to fill pockets and steal Greece blind in an unprecedented way.

I've never acknowledged the 1974 "referendum",not that it makes a difference,as your post states,all is history."

I cannot agree more with you.
With respect to the 1974 referendum, you are also correct. As conservative politician and former prime minister Constantine Mitsotakis has repeatedly argued, "it was unfair" and indeed it was.

The restoration of a different kind was established as HM Queen Sofia opened the restaured House of Spain in Rhodos town yesterday.
HM is on a four day visit to dear Greece and also visited the akropolis and the fortress of Lindos.

This weekend HM will visit the new Akropolis Museum,Athens,and launch the new illumination of the Spanish embassy.

The restoration of a different kind was established as HM Queen Sofia opened the restaured House of Spain in Rhodos town yesterday.
HM is on a four day visit to dear Greece and also visited the akropolis and the fortress of Lindos.

This weekend HM will visit the new Akropolis Museum,Athens,and launch the new illumination of the Spanish embassy.

Any plans for the weekend Philippe?You might join HM at the Museum.

You are late and your information is incomplete. The Queen of Spain has been in Greece for a week now. Last Friday (May 9th) night, she attended a performance by the Spanish National Ballet (Flamengo dance) at the exquisitely restored (hehe) art-deco Pallas (not Palace) theater. Princess Yriny was with her and looked rejuvenated and very elegant.

I hope you and other members of TRF understand that, in their private capacity, Sofia and Yriny are quite popular with "old" Athenians. Alas, these feelings do not extend to other senior members of the former royal family.
However, at this juncture, monarchy as an institution is something foreign to most Greeks and any attitude toward restoration has nothing to do with liking/disliking the personages.

"
I've never acknowledged the 1974 "referendum",not that it makes a difference,as your post states,all is history."

I cannot agree more with you.
With respect to the 1974 referendum, you are also correct. As conservative politician and former prime minister Constantine Mitsotakis has repeatedly argued, "it was unfair" and indeed it was.

I was living in Athens at the time. A lot of Greeks were waiting for the "go ahead" from PM Karamanlis to cast their vote as yes for the return of the Monarchy. However, Mr Karamanlis had old scores to settle and never gave any interviews or encouragement. The night the referendum results came in Athens was flooded with those who celebrated the results. In many ways it was a disturbing sight, at least to me.

You are late and your information is incomplete. The Queen of Spain has been in Greece for a week now. Last Friday (May 9th) night, she attended a performance by the Spanish National Ballet (Flamengo dance) at the exquisitely restored (hehe) art-deco Pallas (not Palace) theater. Princess Yriny was with her and looked rejuvenated and very elegant.

I hope you and other members of TRF understand that, in their private capacity, Sofia and Yriny are quite popular with "old" Athenians. Alas, these feelings do not extend to other senior members of the former royal family.
However, at this juncture, monarchy as an institution is something foreign to most Greeks and any attitude toward restoration has nothing to do with liking/disliking the personages.

I'd been wondering how Queen Sofia and Princess Yriny were thought of by the Greek people.

You are late and your information is incomplete. The Queen of Spain has been in Greece for a week now. Last Friday (May 9th) night, she attended a performance by the Spanish National Ballet (Flamengo dance) at the exquisitely restored (hehe) art-deco Pallas (not Palace) theater. Princess Yriny was with her and looked rejuvenated and very elegant.

I hope you and other members of TRF understand that, in their private capacity, Sofia and Yriny are quite popular with "old" Athenians. Alas, these feelings do not extend to other senior members of the former royal family.
However, at this juncture, monarchy as an institution is something foreign to most Greeks and any attitude toward restoration has nothing to do with liking/disliking the personages.

Kalinigta Philippe,sorry for responding so late.

I knew Princess Yrini was with HM,the Ladies love to travel home together.

I understand the differences in liking on a personal level and any other attitude,regrettable,but I understand.

Wondered,as HM was riding on a donkey and chatted away with Michaelis Liapis,would she have mentioned
the restoration of poor derelict Tatoi?

For what it's worth, I live, predominantly, in Melbourne, Australia (though I spend a lot of time in Sydney and sometimes London), and Melbourne is, for those who don't know, popularly regarded as the third largest Greek city in the world!

Ergo: I know quite a few erstwhile Greek nationals, and also those who hold current dual citizenships. I am, thus, aware of issues which excite and exercise many of our Greek/Australian citizens.

I always find it so impressive that Greeks are so politically aware and alive to every subtlety pertaining to their 'Old Country' as well as their new one. Such very astute people, conditioned, no doubt, by thousands of years of superior artistic, philosophic, and suasive intellectual attainments on which The Wests' predominance was cemented, must always have their opinions considered.

However, amongst the eminent and gifted people who are Greek or of Greek heritage with whom I'm familiar, there is a raging, endless debate, about the Greek Royal Family.

It's not a matter of who loves whom: simply, I'm convinced that it's a purely intellectual exercise, paralleled by Australia's present conundrum about the status of our own Queen's successors.

I don't think that it's only 'old Athenians' who wish for a continuing attachment to The Throne. Not by any longshot, I dont. The young, in my experience, find something attractive and nationalistically wholesome in the thought of an-above-the fray royal family.

I did not say that "old" Athenians wish for an attachment to the Throne. In fact, I made it crystal-clear that Sofia and Yriny are popular in their private capacity.

Hellenism comprises some 25 million souls. Melbourne is, indeed, the third "Greek city", Astoria of Queens, New York is the fourth and so on. The Greeks of the diaspora outnumber those residing on Greek soil. However, by their own choice, barely 1-5% among them hold Greek citizenship and passport. Thus, over 90-95% of them cannot vote during Local, National or European Parliament elections. Nonetheless, our compatriots maintain Greek patriality and may, for up to three generations in the direct line, apply for Hellenic citizenship/passport - a very simple procedure.

The Greeks (around 1.5 million) who emigrated massively in the 1950s to Australia, Canada and the USA carry a culture that is no more representative of any actual social group within Greece. They came mostly from the countryside whose populus was functionally illiterate and poverty-stricken after the ordeal of the civil war. Today, barely 15% of the population lives in agrarian communities and those who do make an excellent living through booming tourism or farming, by exploiting economic immigrants (!!) such as Ukranians, Russians, Pakistanis, etc., and receiving generous European Union grants. In brief, the socio-economic class the Greeks of Melbourne originated from doesn't exist anymore. Should they travel back home (and many do so), they would hardly be able to recognize the people and the locale.

Greece (current population: 11 million) has undergone revolutionary socioeconomic and cultural restructuring. Indeed, from a country of emigration, it has turned to one of immigration of 1 million people from Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa. Thus, the beliefs of Greek immigrants of the 1950s anywhere in the World have little to do with the Greek reality of the 2000s. There is no more debate about the monarchy as a polity in Greece. King Constantine comes and goes all the time and nobody is even aware of that.

Addendum: Australia's conundrum vis-a-vis the monarchy as a polity or political suzerainty of a far away monarch is very complex, deeply rooted and totally unrelated to the Greek state of affairs. Greece is a vibrant Republic striving for Europe's political, diplomatic and military integration.

I don't think the family will ever return to the throne, but I would love to see it. Pavlos has a gorgeous family and I think him and M-C would be a new generation of Greek Royals

This is something that will never happen. The Greeks who are Monarchists feel great love and nurture nostalgia for K Constantine and Q Anne Marie. Their romance, engagement, wedding and 2 children born to them in rapid succession while on the throne, were the things that make people dream.
MC has nothing royal about her and Pavlos has grown far from Greece. They show no interest in Greece except the obligatory summer visit. They are both foreign to the Greeks in general and there is no interest in them ever reigning. As someone said once, Kings are loved by peasants and aristocracy. Greece has very few of them. The majority belong to middle and upper classes and the Monarchy is not on their radar.

The restoration is impossible.Democracy was born in Greece and it's in our blood.Greek people don't need a king.Pavlos and his family are sweet and kind,with pretty faces,but that's it.In Greece we see them as celebrities,we read about their marriages or christenings,we talk about them like we talk about movie stars or singers and that's the end of the story.Restoration?Don't make us laugh...

The restoration is impossible.Democracy was born in Greece and it's in our blood.Greek people don't need a king.Pavlos and his family are sweet and kind,with pretty faces,but that's it.In Greece we see them as celebrities,we read about their marriages or christenings,we talk about them like we talk about movie stars or singers and that's the end of the story.Restoration?Don't make us laugh...

Thanks for the info, it's interesting to hear what the view of the Greek people think about this.

I think another problem might be that the GRF has NO actual Greek blood in their veins (or very little) They are basically Danish-German.

It doesn't surprise me that the people of Greece feel no real bond with them.