Forgetting the original keepers of time are we??..yes.. that's right women with their monthlies,who also in my view discovered simple
agriculture,after all when we failed to bring back that meat on hooves we still gotta eat..

World's first calender?? created by women??..The Ishango Bone, 20,000yrs BC

Alexander Marshack examined the Ishango bone microscopically, and concluded that it may represent a six-month lunar calendar; but see Judy Robinson
who argues that Marshack over-interprets the data and that the evidence does not support lunar calendars. Claudia Zaslavsky has suggested that this
may indicate that the creator of the tool was a woman, tracking the lunar phase in relation to the menstrual cycle. en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by yampa
I don't think anyone invents calenders or numbers, they are based on natural constants. I don't think trying to line up calender inception dates
with disasters is a very productive use of your time.

Not only is there evidence for the date of the invention of numbers,
I believe I have determined exactly how letters were invented.

Originally posted by Hanslune
That number also applies to many other places on the two longitute and latitude lines of the same number that run around the world

True,
and a much simpler explanation.

If I had wanted to debate him on that level,
I would of made the mistake of actually trying
to explain all the math and the reality of the situation.

You one liner is much more effective.

The fact that the artifact of the barbaric Babylonian 360 degrees
(which really should be 365.2422 degrees)
creates the same kind of coincidences as
the metric system
(40,000 kilometer circumference of the earth, Meter used to define speed of light)
Would require trusting the person debated to actually be able to work geometry.

No!!! actually the opposite there is a belief in some circles that women were the first keepers of time connected to the moon and their monthly
cycle..if you got the impression that's it's actually sexist then obviously it's a delivery fail on my part but check the link or look up
Alexander Marshack or Claudia Zaslavsky on the theory and the Ishango bones themselves is 20kyrs old that might connect with the Moon and women..I
think most of the moon goddesses were in fact feminine..

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
I'm actually surprised
that no one has challenged the
specific dating of the invention of numbers.

I guess there are not too many Historians posting here.

I did find this interesting quote
from ancient Egyptian myth during my research.

Before all things was Time, then Desire (Motive), then Darkness

Mike

I don't understand what you mean by 'invention of numbers' - you don't invent numbers, they just exist. I think what you mean is when did humans
start articulating numerical values (as in there is one sheep, there is another, let's call that two sheep) that surely is a different thing. I also
don't think that written records would give a date as to when that articulation started, just when it was necessary to do so in a written form,
possibly for an inventory or a sale of goods.

I cannot remember offhand where I read it, but it's probably in a book by Bill Bryson (hey, I'm a layman), but I believe some languages/dialects
even now use terms based on either the singular, followed by the equivalent of 'some' followed by 'many'

In your OP you have letters being invented roughly 4,000 years later than numbers - that makes no sense at all as without expressing what the numbers
mean, they are meaningless.

No!!! actually the opposite there is a belief in some circles that women were the first keepers of time connected to the moon and their monthly
cycle..if you got the impression that's it's actually sexist then obviously it's a delivery fail on my part but check the link or look up Alexander
Marshack or Claudia Zaslavsky on the theory and the Ishango bones themselves is 20kyrs old that might connect with the Moon and women..I think most
of the moon goddesses were in fact feminine..

The Earth Goddess, or Earth Mother
was betrothed in marriage,
executed at the alter by decapitation,
her artery spurting body giving birth to the Hunahpu twins
who grew up to challenge, and finally defeat the evil gods of the underworld.

Notice her head is replaced with two serpents?
That represents the blood spurting from the two major arteries in the neck.

But other than that,
yes...
The Maya always said the moon was actually
made up of the pieces of the destroyed
Earth Mother.

The moon according to the Aztecs.

Since the day we Americans proved them wrong
by walking on the moon and looking around
the occultic forces of this world have been
relentless in both their criticism of America
and their attempts to feminize our boys.

In this trailer for Donney Yin's new version
of The Monkey king notice the
two, long streaming, blood red feathers
coming from his head.
Timestop 1:10 -1:18
Is it any coincidence that the trailer
opens with a celestial goddess floating through the heavens.

Are you seriously taking the position that the modern woman needs any man
to either defend them or restore their history?
Can't they do that for themselves.
Aren't you admitting they lack the ability to do it on their own
by championing them?

Sounds like Chivalry,
but not for the individual, only for the idealized historical revisionist version.

You do realize that all the secret plots,
and plans of the secret cabals are leading to one thing.
The feminization of all religions
so that on the last day a Patriarchy can
be rolled out and all the world's religions
ritualistically "married" to it.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
I'm actually surprised
that no one has challenged the
specific dating of the invention of numbers.

I guess there are not too many Historians posting here.

I did find this interesting quote
from ancient Egyptian myth during my research.

Before all things was Time, then Desire (Motive), then Darkness

Mike

I don't understand what you mean by 'invention of numbers' - you don't invent numbers, they just exist. I think what you mean is when did humans
start articulating numerical values (as in there is one sheep, there is another, let's call that two sheep) that surely is a different thing. I also
don't think that written records would give a date as to when that articulation started, just when it was necessary to do so in a written form,
possibly for an inventory or a sale of goods.

I cannot remember offhand where I read it, but it's probably in a book by Bill Bryson (hey, I'm a layman), but I believe some languages/dialects
even now use terms based on either the singular, followed by the equivalent of 'some' followed by 'many'

In your OP you have letters being invented roughly 4,000 years later than numbers - that makes no sense at all as without expressing what the numbers
mean, they are meaningless.

In the history of languages,
it was discovered that many cultures share the same words for
"one", "two", and "many"
but that numbers of accuracy greater than two seem to be a fairly recent invention.

And by recent they mean within 10,000 years or so.

And if,
as is suggested,
counting is so easy and natural,
please explain how the following sentence
lead to the Greco-Roman dominance of half the world for centuries.

"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line"

When that appears in Book 1 of Euclid's Elements,
but they don't get to number theory (counting) till Book 7.

Are you seriously taking the position that the modern woman needs any man
to either defend them or restore their history?
Can't they do that for themselves.
Aren't you admitting they lack the ability to do it on their own
by championing them?

No I sight Claudia Zaslavsky an ethno mathematician among others it is out of respect and recognition,and I do research on female history not
because I feel the need to champion them necessarily but because I love history all history.

Are you seriously taking the position that the modern woman needs any man
to either defend them or restore their history?
Can't they do that for themselves.
Aren't you admitting they lack the ability to do it on their own
by championing them?

No I sight Claudia Zaslavsky an ethno mathematician among others it is out of respect and recognition,and I do research on female history not
because I feel the need to champion them necessarily but because I love history all history.

Well your heart is in the right place,
and thank you for you contributions
and debating the history of time keeping with me.

A tally stick, though
in no way shows the existence of numbers greater than "one", "two", and "many"
It only proves that people could compare sticks and say
"I have more many than you"

Have you ever seen Ogham numbers?
This is a clear indication of the origin of integer counting.

No!!! actually the opposite there is a belief in some circles that women were the first keepers of time connected to the moon and their monthly
cycle..if you got the impression that's it's actually sexist then obviously it's a delivery fail on my part but check the link or look up
Alexander Marshack or Claudia Zaslavsky on the theory and the Ishango bones themselves is 20kyrs old that might connect with the Moon and women..I
think most of the moon goddesses were in fact feminine..

I think you have a point. Women have a rather memorable natural lunar period build into their lives. It sounds totally plausible that a group of
smart female pro-humans would have been the first to systematize time. period = periodic = cyclical

I think the moon is probably very important to all our calculations concerning time. The moon talks to us in ways modern science has not yet fully
understood.

I don't understand what you mean by 'invention of numbers' - you don't invent numbers, they just exist. I think what you mean is when did humans start
articulating numerical values (as in there is one sheep, there is another, let's call that two sheep) that surely is a different thing. I also don't
think that written records would give a date as to when that articulation started, just when it was necessary to do so in a written form, possibly for
an inventory or a sale of goods.

I cannot remember offhand where I read it, but it's probably in a book by Bill Bryson (hey, I'm a layman), but I believe some languages/dialects even
now use terms based on either the singular, followed by the equivalent of 'some' followed by 'many'

In your OP you have letters being invented roughly 4,000 years later than numbers - that makes no sense at all as without expressing what the numbers
mean, they are meaningless.

In the history of languages,
it was discovered that many cultures share the same words for
"one", "two", and "many"
but that numbers of accuracy greater than two seem to be a fairly recent invention.

And by recent they mean within 10,000 years or so.

And if,
as is suggested,
counting is so easy and natural,
please explain how the following sentence
lead to the Greco-Roman dominance of half the world for centuries.

"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line"

When that appears in Book 1 of Euclid's Elements,
but they don't get to number theory (counting) till Book 7.

Mike

Because the quote is stunningly eloquent, what has that got to do with anything at all? Do you disagree at the shortest distance between 2 points (and
I'm sorry, I always thought two was a number) is indeed a straight line? What point are you trying to make? I'm fairly sure though that particular
observation did not on its own lead to the Greco Roman dominance.

(44) Then, as the story goes, Vesosis waged a war disastrous to himself against the Scythians, whom ancient tradition asserts to have been the
husbands of the Amazons. Concerning these female warriors Orosius speaks in convincing language. Thus we can clearly prove that Vesosis then fought
with the Goths, since we know surely that he waged war with the husbands of the Amazons. They dwelt at that time along a bend of Lake Maeotis, from
the river Borysthenes, which the natives call the Danaper, to the stream of the Tanais.
(45) By the Tanais I mean the river which flows down from the Rhipaeian mountains and rushes with so swift a current that when the neighboring streams
or Lake Maeotis and the Bosphorus are frozen fast, it is the only river that is kept warm by the rugged mountains and is never solidified by the
Scythian cold. It is also famous as the boundary of Asia and Europe. For the other Tanais is the one which rises in the mountains of the Chrinni and
flows into the Caspian Sea.

" (56) Fearing their race would fail, they sought marriage with neighboring tribes. They appointed a day for meeting once in every year, so that
when they should return to the same place on that day in the following year each mother might give over to the father whatever male child she had
borne, but should herself keep and train for warfare whatever children of the female sex were born. Or else, as some maintain, they exposed the males,
destroying the life of the ill-fated child with a hate like that of a stepmother. Among them childbearing was detested, though everywhere else it is
desired.
(57) The terror of their cruelty was increased by common rumor; for what hope, pray, would there be for a captive, when it was considered wrong to
spare even a son? Hercules, they say, fought against them and overcame Menalippe, yet more by guile than by valor. Theseus moreover, took Hippolyte
captive, and of her he begat Hippolytus. And in later times the Amazons had a queen named Penthesilea, famed in the tales of the Trojan war. These
women are said to have kept their power even to the time of Alexander the Great."
**************************************************

I don't understand what you mean by 'invention of numbers' - you don't invent numbers, they just exist. I think what you mean is when did humans start
articulating numerical values (as in there is one sheep, there is another, let's call that two sheep) that surely is a different thing. I also don't
think that written records would give a date as to when that articulation started, just when it was necessary to do so in a written form, possibly for
an inventory or a sale of goods.

I cannot remember offhand where I read it, but it's probably in a book by Bill Bryson (hey, I'm a layman), but I believe some languages/dialects even
now use terms based on either the singular, followed by the equivalent of 'some' followed by 'many'

In your OP you have letters being invented roughly 4,000 years later than numbers - that makes no sense at all as without expressing what the numbers
mean, they are meaningless.

In the history of languages,
it was discovered that many cultures share the same words for
"one", "two", and "many"
but that numbers of accuracy greater than two seem to be a fairly recent invention.

And by recent they mean within 10,000 years or so.

And if,
as is suggested,
counting is so easy and natural,
please explain how the following sentence
lead to the Greco-Roman dominance of half the world for centuries.

"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line"

When that appears in Book 1 of Euclid's Elements,
but they don't get to number theory (counting) till Book 7.

Mike

Because the quote is stunningly eloquent, what has that got to do with anything at all? Do you disagree at the shortest distance between 2 points (and
I'm sorry, I always thought two was a number) is indeed a straight line? What point are you trying to make? I'm fairly sure though that particular
observation did not on its own lead to the Greco Roman dominance.

edit on 29-8-2013 by uncommitted because: layout

edit on
29-8-2013 by uncommitted because: (no reason given)

dont know about u guys but i always thought that pi was the big breakthrough,, after zero.

A tally stick, though
in no way shows the existence of numbers greater than "one", "two", and "many"
It only proves that people could compare sticks and say
"I have more many than you"

It was more than a simple tally stick.it was a very early precursor to what was found in a much later Kemet in it's use of the doubling system.

At one end of the Ishango Bone is a piece of quartz for writing, and the bone has a series of notches carved in groups (shown below). It was first
thought these notches were some kind of tally marks as found to record counts all over the world. However, the Ishango bone appears to be much more
than a simple tally. The markings on rows (a) and (b) each add to 60. Row (b) contains the prime numbers between 10 and 20. Row (a) is quite
consistent with a numeration system based on 10, since the notches are grouped as 20 + 1, 20 - 1, 10 + 1, and 10 - 1. Finally, row (c) seems to
illustrate for the method of duplication (multiplication by 2) used more recently in Egyptian multiplication. Recent studies with microscopes
illustrate more markings and it is now understood the bone is also a lunar phase counter. Who but a woman keeping track of her cycles would need a
lunar calendar? Were women our first mathematicians? www.math.buffalo.edu...

I am familiar with Ogham kinda like the Roman's use of letters for numbers, and the Rune script also although I haven't dug deep into either..but
my main point was the Ishango bone connected to the Lunar cycle and women is the oldest known so far in the world.
But interestingly there was always this thing with magic and numbers world wide,

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