This weapon was generally disliked due to the slowing ability of its bullets as well as the small amount of damage resistance it granted the Heavy. However, the damage resistance was amplified when used in conjunction with the Vaccinator, and with the removal of the Vaccinator we believe this damage resistance will be near negligible. The utility of the speed reduction is somewhat limited and situational and in most regards the weapon is otherwise a downgrade from other available heavy primary weapons. As such, Natascha remains unbanned.

what, no ?
heavy already does an absurd amount of damage once fully spun up, the damage reduction doesn't make as much of a difference as the fact that if you hit a scout he's not gonna be able to move and then you're gonna be able to hit him more, it also lets you stop people from escaping. I think a lot of people would argue that maybe tomislav is better but because of the damage ramp up, the extra deploy speed is largely irrelevant. I always thought minigun was only better because it let you outdps some things that you don't really need to outdps in a 6's environment. The natascha is straight up the best weapon in the slot, it's just not as obvious and not as greatly abused as the jarate.

oblaMachina - Unbanned (Unchanged)

The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant, and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.

collaterals aside, the body shot damage this thing does is insane, you'll almost always be able to kill a scout (at least 95% of the time) and most of the time you'll kill a jumping soldier. Obviously you can argue that hitting a full charge body shot means they're probably gonna die anyway but that's just not true. You can fully shut down aggression with a bodyshot but it's pretty hard to get a kill without team assistance/ other team just being dumb. The machina is only a downgrade if you're trying to do some sneaky shit and you miss a shot, you get a much better opportunity at a second/third one and if you're not playing with your team and you need to noscope something, which you can just avoid altogether.

oblaCow Mangler 5000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)

Despite not needing ammunition packs as most weapons do, this upgrade itself is not significant enough to be considered unbalanced. The alt-fire charge shot does not have momentous impact on the game, and the weapon's downside of virtually 0 Sentry Gun damage remains quite prominent. For these reasons the Cow Mangler 5000 will remain unbanned.

just because something doesn't matter every push doesn't mean it should matter on any push. A charge shot can literally destroy a full advantage push, and it's not something that happens once in a blue moon, it happens fairly regularly. Regardless of whether the shot hits, if the enemy team is aware of it, they're forced to wait for the shot, which slows down the game and since you're never going to use the charge shot in a place that will increase the tempo of the game and instead only as a spam tool that's basically entirely dependent on whether the enemy team is aware of it and therefore pretty random.
The damage to sentry's is largely irrelevant because on quite a few maps having one player with the cow mangler makes ammo management significantly easier and often times one soldier is enough to kill a sentry and then on top of that the number of situations where a chargeshot + 1 soldier spam wouldn't have accomplished what double soldier spam would've is basically zero.
I also don't think really understand how important ammo is in tf2, like obviously if you're low you're going to need to pick some up but having an infinite amount basically means you never have to stop spamming and you never have to hold rockets. If there isn't spam it's pretty easy to run through a choke and take a fight, not even necessarily as a team. For instance, sometimes you could run a scout through granary garage to take a 185 v 200 hp 1v1 in left yard when the soldier stops shooting. If that soldier has infinite ammo that's basically impossible because he's never gonna stop looking at it.

obviously the changes to the whitelist were, at least in some ways, motivated by community opinion but if you're gonna not ban weapons that the community favors banning at least have solid and accurate reasoning, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[quote=obla][h]Natascha - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

This weapon was generally disliked due to the slowing ability of its bullets as well as the small amount of damage resistance it granted the Heavy. However, the damage resistance was amplified when used in conjunction with the Vaccinator, and with the removal of the Vaccinator we believe this damage resistance will be near negligible. The utility of the speed reduction is somewhat limited and situational and [b]in most regards the weapon is otherwise a downgrade from other available heavy primary weapons. As such, Natascha remains unbanned.[/b][/quote]

what, no ?
heavy already does an absurd amount of damage once fully spun up, the damage reduction doesn't make as much of a difference as the fact that if you hit a scout he's not gonna be able to move and then you're gonna be able to hit him more, it also lets you stop people from escaping. I think a lot of people would argue that maybe tomislav is better but because of the damage ramp up, the extra deploy speed is largely irrelevant. I always thought minigun was only better because it let you outdps some things that you don't really need to outdps in a 6's environment. The natascha is straight up the best weapon in the slot, it's just not as obvious and not as greatly abused as the jarate.

[quote=obla][h]Machina - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

[b]The Machina’s damage buff is mostly insignificant[/b], and the utility of collateral shots isn’t consistently viable enough for the weapon to be considered unbalanced. As such, the Machina remains unbanned.[/quote]

collaterals aside, the body shot damage this thing does is insane, you'll almost always be able to kill a scout (at least 95% of the time) and most of the time you'll kill a jumping soldier. Obviously you can argue that hitting a full charge body shot means they're probably gonna die anyway but that's just not true. You can fully shut down aggression with a bodyshot but it's pretty hard to get a kill without team assistance/ other team just being dumb. The machina is only a downgrade if you're trying to do some sneaky shit and you miss a shot, you get a much better opportunity at a second/third one and if you're not playing with your team and you need to noscope something, which you can just avoid altogether.

[quote=obla][h]Cow Mangler 5000 - Unbanned (Unchanged)[/h]

Despite not needing ammunition packs as most weapons do, this upgrade itself is not significant enough to be considered unbalanced. [b]The alt-fire charge shot does not have momentous impact on the game[/b], and the weapon's downside of virtually[b] 0 Sentry Gun damage remains quite prominent[/b]. For these reasons the Cow Mangler 5000 will remain unbanned. [/quote]

just because something doesn't matter every push doesn't mean it should matter on any push. A charge shot can literally destroy a full advantage push, and it's not something that happens once in a blue moon, it happens fairly regularly. Regardless of whether the shot hits, if the enemy team is aware of it, they're forced to wait for the shot, which slows down the game and since you're never going to use the charge shot in a place that will increase the tempo of the game and instead only as a spam tool that's basically entirely dependent on whether the enemy team is aware of it and therefore pretty random.
The damage to sentry's is largely irrelevant because on quite a few maps having one player with the cow mangler makes ammo management significantly easier and often times one soldier is enough to kill a sentry and then on top of that the number of situations where a chargeshot + 1 soldier spam wouldn't have accomplished what double soldier spam would've is basically zero.
I also don't think really understand how important ammo is in tf2, like obviously if you're low you're going to need to pick some up but having an infinite amount basically means you never have to stop spamming and you never have to hold rockets. If there isn't spam it's pretty easy to run through a choke and take a fight, not even necessarily as a team. For instance, sometimes you could run a scout through granary garage to take a 185 v 200 hp 1v1 in left yard when the soldier stops shooting. If that soldier has infinite ammo that's basically impossible because he's never gonna stop looking at it.

obviously the changes to the whitelist were, at least in some ways, motivated by community opinion but if you're gonna not ban weapons that the community favors banning at least have solid and accurate reasoning, which doesn't seem to be the case.

corsaEoNFun =/= good unlock
assuming you are talking about xbow, it's a very good unlock. it's unfortunately just slightly unbalanced, and hopefully with valve's next annual update, it will be nerfed :D

Nerfing it should be the only thing that allows the item to stay in comp play IMO. I understand why people feel it adds "depth" to the game, but it honestly just doesn't' if you really look at what it's doing to the game.

A word associated with this weapon a lot is potential; potential clutch plays, potential to have more interactive fights, but realistically all this weapon does is make people play counter intuitively. 3 players just sanding still all waiting for burst heals and not actually doing anything doesn't add "depth." Doing 200 damage to a pocket that you can't fight after 2 seconds doesn't add depth, nor does doing a ton of damage to a retreating team and not being able to push them effectively. The weapon is NOT hard to use and the benefits of the weapon are almost guaranteed so the association of the words clutch and potential with this weapon need to stop, especially when you can miss 2 arrows, then just burst heal someone for 100 hp anyways on a third just by throwing it out there and it's STILL way better than anything else available. There is no high risk high reward aspect to using this weapon at all and, in my opinion, is hurting the competitive integrity of the game in many, many ways.

I agree that it's fun to use at times, but continually the argument that this weapon is keeping medic players playing the game is a silly notion, I think a lot of medics would agree with me that sitting and arrowing your team for 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing has been one of he most annoying and dumb things I've had to start doing. Ive played for a long time and I don't see the growth in medic players from the addition of crossbow at all.

[quote=corsa][quote=EoN]Fun =/= good unlock[/quote]

assuming you are talking about xbow, it's a very good unlock. it's unfortunately just slightly unbalanced, and hopefully with valve's next annual update, it will be nerfed :D[/quote]

Nerfing it should be the only thing that allows the item to stay in comp play IMO. I understand why people feel it adds "depth" to the game, but it honestly just doesn't' if you really look at what it's doing to the game.

A word associated with this weapon a lot is potential; potential clutch plays, potential to have more interactive fights, but realistically all this weapon does is make people play counter intuitively. 3 players just sanding still all waiting for burst heals and not actually doing anything doesn't add "depth." Doing 200 damage to a pocket that you can't fight after 2 seconds doesn't add depth, nor does doing a ton of damage to a retreating team and not being able to push them effectively. The weapon is NOT hard to use and the benefits of the weapon are almost guaranteed so the association of the words clutch and potential with this weapon need to stop, especially when you can miss 2 arrows, then just burst heal someone for 100 hp anyways on a third just by throwing it out there and it's STILL way better than anything else available. There is no high risk high reward aspect to using this weapon at all and, in my opinion, is hurting the competitive integrity of the game in many, many ways.

I agree that it's fun to use at times, but continually the argument that this weapon is keeping medic players playing the game is a silly notion, I think a lot of medics would agree with me that sitting and arrowing your team for 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing has been one of he most annoying and dumb things I've had to start doing. Ive played for a long time and I don't see the growth in medic players from the addition of crossbow at all.

I'd have to agree on mostly all of this. I still believe all this medic crossbow nonsense would go away if the weapon did not build uber % on hit. It would get rid of the silly arrow building meta and just leave the crossbow for burst heals in critical situations and team fights.

The integrity of the game and the way you play medic is not compromised because everyone can shoot a crossbow. If anything, it creates a skill gap between average medics and good medics. Lets face facts, there are just some medics that are dogshit at hitting arrows in team fights. That is a clear cut advantage to the other medic who can aim better, or to the medic who can predict movement better, or to the medic/teammate who have better communication skills when requesting an arrow mid-fight.

In my mind, these medic skills should not be overlooked or thrown out the window because they are big parts of the game and are skills any medic can work on just like any other class.

The only real thing that is consistently abused is the "arrow building" side effect. Until the weapon is changed and the Uber building component removed, there is nothing anyone can do about it, but I don't feel it means the weapon should be banned.

[quote=lucrative]lucrative stuff[/quote]

I'd have to agree on mostly all of this. I still believe all this medic crossbow nonsense would go away if the weapon did not build uber % on hit. It would get rid of the silly arrow building meta and just leave the crossbow for burst heals in critical situations and team fights.

The integrity of the game and the way you play medic is not compromised because everyone can shoot a crossbow. If anything, it creates a skill gap between average medics and good medics. Lets face facts, there are just some medics that are dogshit at hitting arrows in team fights. That is a clear cut advantage to the other medic who can aim better, or to the medic who can predict movement better, or to the medic/teammate who have better communication skills when requesting an arrow mid-fight.

In my mind, these medic skills should not be overlooked or thrown out the window because they are big parts of the game and are skills any medic can work on just like any other class.

The only real thing that is consistently abused is the "arrow building" side effect. Until the weapon is changed and the Uber building component removed, there is nothing anyone can do about it, but I don't feel it means the weapon should be banned.

I disagree with your solemn vow logic. How are you going to find out whether or not it's a problem if it does not get some use?

I do not agree with your machina reasoning either.

Also for cow mangler :

Despite not needing ammunition packs as most weapons do, this upgrade itself is not significant enough to be considered unbalanced

WTF? Try playing soldier on badlands or granary to see how much of a restriction ammo is, and you'll most likely revise your judgment.

Although i'm sad for the vaccinator, I understand the reasoning. I really hope that future maps make last points easier to push and maybe it'll be fine to reintroduce this (unlike this **** of granary pro), because, outside of last holds close to spawn doors it adds a lot of dynamism to the game.

Good reasoning for the rest.
When do you plan on reviewing the global whitelist again?

I disagree with your solemn vow logic. How are you going to find out whether or not it's a problem if it does not get some use?

I do not agree with your machina reasoning either.

Also for cow mangler :
[quote]Despite not needing ammunition packs as most weapons do, this upgrade itself is not significant enough to be considered unbalanced[/quote]
WTF? Try playing soldier on badlands or granary to see how much of a restriction ammo is, and you'll most likely revise your judgment.

Although i'm sad for the vaccinator, I understand the reasoning. I really hope that future maps make last points easier to push and maybe it'll be fine to reintroduce this (unlike this **** of granary pro), because, outside of last holds close to spawn doors it adds a lot of dynamism to the game.

Good reasoning for the rest.
When do you plan on reviewing the global whitelist again?

while not having ammo sounds like a huge pain im sure u would find the courtesy to tell your team you are low on ammo and we need to put a full stop to everything we are doing and not trying to salvage things with <4 rockets

while not having ammo sounds like a huge pain im sure u would find the courtesy to tell your team you are low on ammo and we need to put a full stop to everything we are doing and not trying to salvage things with <4 rockets

Lol pretty funny but this rarely happens and how is this any different then the market gardener?
You are going to say it is safe to shoot with cow mangler, but you cant drop the med like the mg can when you have 15hp. They both do the same thing but in different ways and imo mg is way more consistent. Also you can only spam it like this in a spawn, if you do it when they come choke you waste your whole ammo and if you miss you dont even force them because you only have 1 soldier spamming.

Yeah the inf ammo is nice to have but it doesnt change anything, a good soldier can spam the same amount of damage if he just plays around the ammo pack well and only spams when its actually needed.

And we aren't even talking about the biggest downside; you cant even take down sentries and its the most annoying and push stopping thing I've ever played with lol. It's literally impossible to destroy a sentry, yeah you can uber your demo + soldier and then destroy the sentry, but whats the point in wasting half your uber when you can just spam it down before hand with both soldiers?

[quote=botmode][quote=damneasy]Can anyone show me where the cow mangler was actually good in a game?[/quote]

https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticConfidentRingCoolStoryBro[/quote]

Lol pretty funny but this rarely happens and how is this any different then the market gardener?
You are going to say it is safe to shoot with cow mangler, but you cant drop the med like the mg can when you have 15hp. They both do the same thing but in different ways and imo mg is way more consistent. Also you can only spam it like this in a spawn, if you do it when they come choke you waste your whole ammo and if you miss you dont even force them because you only have 1 soldier spamming.

Yeah the inf ammo is nice to have but it doesnt change anything, a good soldier can spam the same amount of damage if he just plays around the ammo pack well and only spams when its actually needed.

And we aren't even talking about the biggest downside; you cant even take down sentries and its the most annoying and push stopping thing I've ever played with lol. It's literally impossible to destroy a sentry, yeah you can uber your demo + soldier and then destroy the sentry, but whats the point in wasting half your uber when you can just spam it down before hand with both soldiers?

lucrative I think a lot of medics would agree with me that sitting and arrowing your team for 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing has been one of he most annoying and dumb things I've had to start doing. Ive played for a long time and I don't see the growth in medic players from the addition of crossbow at all.

I mean, tbh that is just the slow part of the game in general. If there was no crossbow, that would be replaced by 3 players scrambling for health packs, or standing waiting for acceptable heals from Medgun before they move anyway.

Not saying that players standing still in between pushes isn't dumb, but I find it more engaging than only having my Medgun out the entire time and nothing else.

[quote=lucrative] I think a lot of medics would agree with me that sitting and arrowing your team for 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing has been one of he most annoying and dumb things I've had to start doing. Ive played for a long time and I don't see the growth in medic players from the addition of crossbow at all.[/quote]

I mean, tbh that is just the slow part of the game in general. If there was no crossbow, that would be replaced by 3 players scrambling for health packs, or standing waiting for acceptable heals from Medgun before they move anyway.

Not saying that players standing still in between pushes isn't dumb, but I find it more engaging than only having my Medgun out the entire time and nothing else.

RaelynI mean, tbh that is just the slow part of the game in general. If there was no crossbow, that would be replaced by 3 players scrambling for health packs, or standing waiting for acceptable heals from Medgun before they move anyway.

Not saying that players standing still in between pushes isn't dumb, but I find it more engaging than only having my Medgun out the entire time and nothing else.

This downtime with lack of heals would not happen as much as you think it would because the damage that you have to wait 15 or 20 seconds to heal up is damage that the other team can push off of. 3 players scrambling for health packs is a massive advantage that can be pushed off of because of the length of time it takes and the terrible positioning it puts you in. Where as now you wait 3 seconds and everything is full HP, no incentive or reason to try and push that because you cant take enough ground in 3 seconds to really make a difference.

[quote=Raelyn]
I mean, tbh that is just the slow part of the game in general. If there was no crossbow, that would be replaced by 3 players scrambling for health packs, or standing waiting for acceptable heals from Medgun before they move anyway.

Not saying that players standing still in between pushes isn't dumb, but I find it more engaging than only having my Medgun out the entire time and nothing else.[/quote]

This downtime with lack of heals would not happen as much as you think it would because the damage that you have to wait 15 or 20 seconds to heal up is damage that the other team can push off of. 3 players scrambling for health packs is a massive advantage that can be pushed off of because of the length of time it takes and the terrible positioning it puts you in. Where as now you wait 3 seconds and everything is full HP, no incentive or reason to try and push that because you cant take enough ground in 3 seconds to really make a difference.

oblaJarate Machina is uncontested as the best Sniper secondary primary in the sense that it allows the Sniper to have a greater impact in team fights by granting his team him a temporary increased damage output, at no expense to those using it. For these reasons, Jarate is (once again) machina remains unbanned.

[quote=obla]
[s]Jarate[/s] Machina is uncontested as the best Sniper [s]secondary[/s] primary in the sense that it allows the Sniper to have a greater impact in team fights by granting [s]his team him a temporary[/s] increased damage output, at no expense to those using it. For these reasons, [s]Jarate is (once again)[/s] machina remains unbanned.[/quote]

Tino_ Now compare that to the stick. You get to run away faster. That's literally it. Its downside is you take minicrits, but that doesn't matter because you would be dead with or without them on you in 99% of the situations that you pull the stick out in. At the same time you could also be using the paintrain, (for backcaps) or the MG, (for memes) but the fact is that there are at least 2 other viable side grades to the stick, most people do run it 99% of the time, but not because they are forced to, more because the would rather have the extra survive ability chance. The same can be said for the saw and gunboats, yes they are "best" in slot, but there are other viable options and they don't add massive power to the class. With gunboats you trade firepower for more efficient rocket jumps, but you lose out on the shotty or banners. Ubersaw you might be able to get cluch ubers off because of it but if you have to pull it out you are more then likely dead either way, and (not many people use it) but the amputators taunt AOE heal is actually really good for post uber fights on lasts. So yet again, you are not forced to run either the boats or the saw, they are the better option the majority of the time but they are not a must.

similarly, the xbow isn't the best option 100% of the time either. Sometimes you might want the overdose if you expect to be baited on high ubercharge, or you might just want to run stock syringes for close range sections of maps, eg granary which according to thefragile in one of the myriad xbow focused threads recently suits syringes much better for most of the arena than the xbow.

As for machina, I don't personally like the weapon but it's not a straight upgrade either. There are times where you're gonna want to be able to bodyshot without scoping.

[quote=Tino_] Now compare that to the stick. You get to run away faster. That's literally it. Its downside is you take minicrits, but that doesn't matter because you would be dead with or without them on you in 99% of the situations that you pull the stick out in. At the same time you could also be using the paintrain, (for backcaps) or the MG, (for memes) but the fact is that there are at least 2 other viable side grades to the stick, most people do run it 99% of the time, but not because they are forced to, more because the would rather have the extra survive ability chance. The same can be said for the saw and gunboats, yes they are "best" in slot, but there are other viable options and they don't add massive power to the class. With gunboats you trade firepower for more efficient rocket jumps, but you lose out on the shotty or banners. Ubersaw you might be able to get cluch ubers off because of it but if you have to pull it out you are more then likely dead either way, and (not many people use it) but the amputators taunt AOE heal is actually really good for post uber fights on lasts. So yet again, you are not forced to run either the boats or the saw, they are the better option the majority of the time but they are not a must.[/quote]
similarly, the xbow isn't the best option 100% of the time either. Sometimes you might want the overdose if you expect to be baited on high ubercharge, or you might just want to run stock syringes for close range sections of maps, eg granary which according to thefragile in one of the myriad xbow focused threads recently suits syringes much better for most of the arena than the xbow.

As for machina, I don't personally like the weapon but it's not a straight upgrade either. There are times where you're gonna want to be able to bodyshot without scoping.

damneasybotmodedamneasyCan anyone show me where the cow mangler was actually good in a game?https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticConfidentRingCoolStoryBro
Lol pretty funny but this rarely happens and how is this any different then the market gardener?
You are going to say it is safe to shoot with cow mangler, but you cant drop the med like the mg can when you have 15hp. They both do the same thing but in different ways and imo mg is way more consistent. Also you can only spam it like this in a spawn, if you do it when they come choke you waste your whole ammo and if you miss you dont even force them because you only have 1 soldier spamming.

Yeah the inf ammo is nice to have but it doesnt change anything, a good soldier can spam the same amount of damage if he just plays around the ammo pack well and only spams when its actually needed.

And we aren't even talking about the biggest downside; you cant even take down sentries and its the most annoying and push stopping thing I've ever played with lol. It's literally impossible to destroy a sentry, yeah you can uber your demo + soldier and then destroy the sentry, but whats the point in wasting half your uber when you can just spam it down before hand with both soldiers?

I never said market gardener is a good weapon, I personally think it's pretty bullshit to play against but that's another discussion entirely. Trying to say "this bullshit weapon should be allowed because this other bullshit weapon is allowed" is fairly shortsighted in my opinion because maybe that other weapon shouldn't be allowed.

You can't always spam from on top of an ammo pack and during fights you can't always just hold rockets / get ammo. It's fairly easy to run out of ammo during really long fights, especially on pocket, where you don't trade frags and don't get ammo but still need to shoot at things to not die, obviously it doesn't happen every fight but it does happen.

I've personally never had an issue taking down a sentry while one of the soldiers on my team was on cow mangler, never in a pug never in a match, even against rescue ranger. I know it feels like it should matter but it doesn't. In a lot of instances where killing the gun isn't something you can do during an uber exchange, the soldier with mangler can spam the engineer while the other soldier shoots the gun and it'll all work out.

Spamming your rockets willy nilly because you have infinite reserve is just bad but for instance, infinitely spamming 1 rocket at garage from yard while mixing up your timings basically means you should be able to get free damage on anything trying to peak that doorway and that's something you can do on most maps.

Also the argument "good soldiers can manage ammo, so it basically doesn't matter" doesn't address the fact that you have to be managing ammo, which in addition to being a "skill" (if you care about that) also affects you're positioning.

[quote=damneasy][quote=botmode][quote=damneasy]Can anyone show me where the cow mangler was actually good in a game?[/quote]

https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticConfidentRingCoolStoryBro[/quote]

Lol pretty funny but this rarely happens and how is this any different then the market gardener?
You are going to say it is safe to shoot with cow mangler, but you cant drop the med like the mg can when you have 15hp. They both do the same thing but in different ways and imo mg is way more consistent. Also you can only spam it like this in a spawn, if you do it when they come choke you waste your whole ammo and if you miss you dont even force them because you only have 1 soldier spamming.

Yeah the inf ammo is nice to have but it doesnt change anything, a good soldier can spam the same amount of damage if he just plays around the ammo pack well and only spams when its actually needed.

And we aren't even talking about the biggest downside; you cant even take down sentries and its the most annoying and push stopping thing I've ever played with lol. It's literally impossible to destroy a sentry, yeah you can uber your demo + soldier and then destroy the sentry, but whats the point in wasting half your uber when you can just spam it down before hand with both soldiers?[/quote]

I never said market gardener is a good weapon, I personally think it's pretty bullshit to play against but that's another discussion entirely. Trying to say "this bullshit weapon should be allowed because this other bullshit weapon is allowed" is fairly shortsighted in my opinion because maybe that other weapon shouldn't be allowed.

You can't always spam from on top of an ammo pack and during fights you can't always just hold rockets / get ammo. It's fairly easy to run out of ammo during really long fights, especially on pocket, where you don't trade frags and don't get ammo but still need to shoot at things to not die, obviously it doesn't happen every fight but it does happen.

I've personally never had an issue taking down a sentry while one of the soldiers on my team was on cow mangler, never in a pug never in a match, even against rescue ranger. I know it [i]feels[/i] like it should matter but it doesn't. In a lot of instances where killing the gun isn't something you can do during an uber exchange, the soldier with mangler can spam the engineer while the other soldier shoots the gun and it'll all work out.

Spamming your rockets willy nilly because you have infinite reserve is just bad but for instance, infinitely spamming 1 rocket at garage from yard while mixing up your timings basically means you should be able to get free damage on anything trying to peak that doorway and that's something you can do on most maps.

Also the argument "good soldiers can manage ammo, so it basically doesn't matter" doesn't address the fact that you have to be managing ammo, which in addition to being a "skill" (if you care about that) also affects you're positioning.

People also seem to forget that the charge shot disables any engy building for 5 seconds, if this gets abused its actually better then stock if you have one because the sentry cant knock back the uber then.

As for this,

nopethe xbow isn't the best option 100% of the time either.

??? I have no words.

People also seem to forget that the charge shot disables any engy building for 5 seconds, if this gets abused its actually better then stock if you have one because the sentry cant knock back the uber then.

As for this,

[quote=nope]the xbow isn't the best option 100% of the time either.[/quote]

nopeTino_ -snip- similarly, the xbow isn't the best option 100% of the time either. Sometimes you might want the overdose if you expect to be baited on high ubercharge, or you might just want to run stock syringes for close range sections of maps, eg granary which according to thefragile in one of the myriad xbow focused threads recently suits syringes much better for most of the arena than the xbow.

As for machina, I don't personally like the weapon but it's not a straight upgrade either. There are times where you're gonna want to be able to bodyshot without scoping.

The XBow is the best option outside of 1 scenario that I can think of. An XBow medic will get uber faster and put out a Heals per second than a medic without one which is more than enough reason to run this weapon 24/7, add to it that the effective combat range of medic is significantly increased while also being able to heal people significantly further away then before you should run this weapon 100% of the time. As for that 1 scenario I can think of (that'll make syringe gun relevant) is a last defense where the medic is the only person alive.

Machina script
bind Mouse1 +attack2; +attack; -attack; -attack2
or something very close to that effect.

[quote=nope][quote=Tino_] -snip- [/quote]
similarly, the xbow isn't the best option 100% of the time either. Sometimes you might want the overdose if you expect to be baited on high ubercharge, or you might just want to run stock syringes for close range sections of maps, eg granary which according to thefragile in one of the myriad xbow focused threads recently suits syringes much better for most of the arena than the xbow.

As for machina, I don't personally like the weapon but it's not a straight upgrade either. There are times where you're gonna want to be able to bodyshot without scoping.[/quote]

The XBow is the best option outside of 1 scenario that I can think of. An XBow medic will get uber faster and put out a Heals per second than a medic without one which is more than enough reason to run this weapon 24/7, add to it that the effective combat range of medic is significantly increased while also being able to heal people significantly further away then before you should run this weapon 100% of the time. As for that 1 scenario I can think of (that'll make syringe gun relevant) is a last defense where the medic is the only person alive.

Machina script
bind Mouse1 +attack2; +attack; -attack; -attack2
or something very close to that effect.

The solemn vow literally does nothing other than simplify the game. There's a reason not a single fucking competitive FPS allows you to see an enemy's HP. Can its proponents actually give a single reason why it should be included?

The solemn vow literally does nothing other than simplify the game. There's a reason not a single fucking competitive FPS allows you to see an enemy's HP. Can its proponents actually give a single reason why it should be included?

I don't disagree that the xbow's ability to build faster than medigun and the maximum healing rate should be nerfed, but people are making a way bigger deal about it than it actually is, and i genuinely feel like most of those people don't understand how team fights work. the ONLY thing that the xbox changes in the grand scheme of team fights is that it allows players to re-enter fights (mainly soldiers, because scouts can stay in fights with low hp, and demos are usually not the most forward player anyway), which is a good thing, because it allows for more continuous, thus interesting team fights. i strongly believe the majority of the problems in this game stem from the idea of not being able to have a team fight based on a map's design, a weapon's ability, etc.

botmode's post from an earlier thread also explains why the xbow isn't as bad as it seems.

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botmodeMarxistwheeI've been around for awhile, I'm familiar with the mechanics of the game with/without the xbow. (I started out playing roamer when shotgun was still a thing)
I'm not particularly advocating for or against the crossbow, I think the game is fantastic both with and without it but I do think a lot of the arguments being made on both are quite shortsighted.

To start, obviously crit heals are one of the best mechanics in the game, for obvious reasons and there should almost definitely be some sort of mechanic to make crossbows affected by crit heals. In the current state however, crit heals still play a huge in buffs, and I think some people are gonna argue that because you can get arrowed, you don't need to get buffed but that's distinctly false. For instance, on scout, although a quick love tap when you have crit heals gets you to 185, I think any scout main could attest to how powerful a 185 health scout is compared to a 125 health one. On roamer, 300 hp at the beginning of a fight can help you push spam or win a 1v1.

The amount of healing that crossbow puts out is actually absurd for the most part. You can fully heal a team at close range significantly faster and obviously arrow building adds a layer of unpredictability to the game that just shouldn't exist (often times the only way to know if a team has been arrow building is them to counterpop an uber on you). Despite all this, in most of the "important" situations to hit an arrow, it's actually pretty damn hard, obviously takes quite a bit of skill and oftentimes involves making a decision on whether to give out guaranteed heals to a target that may actually need it, or to take the risk to shoot the arrow, which is something that people seem to be ignoring. Obviously there are arrows that are just free that can save a player/team with bad coordination and decision making but, in general, that's what good aim in tf2 does. Arrows actually give medic a much greater ability to carry based on their mechanics just like any other class can.

I hope everyone knows that the crossbow is pretty damn complicated and I don't feel like I can really give a coherent argument one way or another in a forum post but I really hope people don't just attribute something to being dumb because it's mechanically based or rewarding coordination.

When it comes to soldier, I think it's pretty much inarguable that they're the class that receives the most arrows by a large margin. In combination with gunboats they can actually reenter a fight, obviously without a buff, which is something that only scout could really do at all before the crossbow. I see a couple of people arguing that damage you do has less meaning because of arrows and I really disagree with that, I just think that it means you need to be more on your toes as a team if you want to full commit in one moment, or play fights in a way that you, as one player, can follow up rather than initiate (which is something a lot of roamers have done regardless of xbow -> ma3la, purpleshirt, seagull, drack). Basically what I'm saying if you think that crossbow makes your damage more meaningless, and I know people might present some salt to this, but maybe, just play better? I know I'm not everyone but as every class in the game I've never personally felt like I was being ineffective and completely powerless as a player simply because the unlock made my damage worse. I've always felt like I could play in a way that circumvents the xbow, just as you can play in a way that exploits the medigun in the way you listed.

Like I said, I don't think I'm doing this argument justice. I guess to some up my overall opinion though, the crossbow in its current form is quite powerful and needs some adjustment but I don't know if it's so powerful that it breaks the game like some people think it does because it definitely adds quite a bit to the game and it's by no means a skill-less, brainless weapon like some people think it is. If anyone has any questions or like counterarguments to anything I've said, I'll try to address them because I want people to understand the game well enough to make accurate opinions about the crossbow.

[quote=lucrative][/quote]
I don't disagree that the xbow's ability to build faster than medigun and the maximum healing rate should be nerfed, but people are making a way bigger deal about it than it actually is, and i genuinely feel like most of those people don't understand how team fights work. the ONLY thing that the xbox changes in the grand scheme of team fights is that it allows players to re-enter fights (mainly soldiers, because scouts can stay in fights with low hp, and demos are usually not the most forward player anyway), which is a good thing, because it allows for more continuous, thus interesting team fights. i strongly believe the majority of the problems in this game stem from the idea of not being able to have a team fight based on a map's design, a weapon's ability, etc.

botmode's post from an earlier thread also explains why the xbow isn't as bad as it seems.

[spoiler][quote=botmode][quote=Marxist]whee[/quote]
I've been around for awhile, I'm familiar with the mechanics of the game with/without the xbow. (I started out playing roamer when shotgun was still a thing)
I'm not particularly advocating for or against the crossbow, I think the game is fantastic both with and without it but I do think a lot of the arguments being made on both are quite shortsighted.

To start, obviously crit heals are one of the best mechanics in the game, for obvious reasons and there should almost definitely be some sort of mechanic to make crossbows affected by crit heals. In the current state however, crit heals still play a huge in buffs, and I think some people are gonna argue that because you can get arrowed, you don't need to get buffed but that's distinctly false. For instance, on scout, although a quick love tap when you have crit heals gets you to 185, I think any scout main could attest to how powerful a 185 health scout is compared to a 125 health one. On roamer, 300 hp at the beginning of a fight can help you push spam or win a 1v1.

The amount of healing that crossbow puts out is actually absurd for the most part. You can fully heal a team at close range significantly faster and obviously arrow building adds a layer of unpredictability to the game that just shouldn't exist (often times the only way to know if a team has been arrow building is them to counterpop an uber on you). Despite all this, in most of the "important" situations to hit an arrow, it's actually pretty damn hard, obviously takes quite a bit of skill and oftentimes involves making a decision on whether to give out guaranteed heals to a target that may actually need it, or to take the risk to shoot the arrow, which is something that people seem to be ignoring. Obviously there are arrows that are just free that can save a player/team with bad coordination and decision making but, in general, that's what good aim in tf2 does. Arrows actually give medic a much greater ability to carry based on their mechanics just like any other class can.

I hope everyone knows that the crossbow is pretty damn complicated and I don't feel like I can really give a coherent argument one way or another in a forum post but I really hope people don't just attribute something to being dumb because it's mechanically based or rewarding coordination.

When it comes to soldier, I think it's pretty much inarguable that they're the class that receives the most arrows by a large margin. In combination with gunboats they can actually reenter a fight, obviously without a buff, which is something that only scout could really do at all before the crossbow. I see a couple of people arguing that damage you do has less meaning because of arrows and I really disagree with that, I just think that it means you need to be more on your toes as a team if you want to full commit in one moment, or play fights in a way that you, as one player, can follow up rather than initiate (which is something a lot of roamers have done regardless of xbow -> ma3la, purpleshirt, seagull, drack). Basically what I'm saying if you think that crossbow makes your damage more meaningless, and I know people might present some salt to this, but maybe, just play better? I know I'm not everyone but as every class in the game I've never personally felt like I was being ineffective and completely powerless as a player simply because the unlock made my damage worse. I've always felt like I could play in a way that circumvents the xbow, just as you can play in a way that exploits the medigun in the way you listed.

Like I said, I don't think I'm doing this argument justice. I guess to some up my overall opinion though, the crossbow in its current form is quite powerful and needs some adjustment but I don't know if it's so powerful that it breaks the game like some people think it does because it definitely adds quite a bit to the game and it's by no means a skill-less, brainless weapon like some people think it is. If anyone has any questions or like counterarguments to anything I've said, I'll try to address them because I want people to understand the game well enough to make accurate opinions about the crossbow.[/quote] [/spoiler]

The crossbow has been in the game for a long time and it seems like only recently have people started to have a problem with it. The combination of it building uber % + the movespeed buff I think is what led to a lot of frustrations people have with it (and arrow building but people just took awhile to understand how broken that was). I haven't played this game seriously in quite a while so I don't have any scrim experience with it, but from the sporadic pug and observation of streams the game appears to play much faster. Especially in team fights. Medic is more durable and soldier can jump around to distract then get back to his team to get arrowed, then re-aggress. This playstyle leads to more situations in which you have to arrow people who are standing still, because people are playing around the expectation of getting arrowed.

So if the game plays noticeably differently, is that necessarily a bad thing? If the crossbow is changed to no longer build uber, it would just stop arrow building (which is pretty retarded imo), but the whole "3 people standing around the medic waiting to get arrowed thing" would still happen. And the speed of team fights would stay at its accelerated pace.

So say you ban the crossbow, do these situations that people don't enjoy change into something more "fun"? I really don't think so. If your biggest gripe with the crossbow is that you have to sit there and arrow people 5 times in a row I really don't understand what you want from that situation to make it more "fun". You have to think about what an unlock adds to the game, and what the game becomes with the absence of that unlock. The people who are currently playing at the highest level are overwhelming in support of keeping the crossbow (am I wrong in this?). Overall the net benefit of the crossbow being in the game outweighs the negatives it brings and I don't think it should be banned (uber building needs to go though for real).

The crossbow has been in the game for a long time and it seems like only recently have people started to have a problem with it. The combination of it building uber % + the movespeed buff I think is what led to a lot of frustrations people have with it (and arrow building but people just took awhile to understand how broken that was). I haven't played this game seriously in quite a while so I don't have any scrim experience with it, but from the sporadic pug and observation of streams the game appears to play much faster. Especially in team fights. Medic is more durable and soldier can jump around to distract then get back to his team to get arrowed, then re-aggress. This playstyle leads to more situations in which you have to arrow people who are standing still, because people are playing around the expectation of getting arrowed.

So if the game plays noticeably differently, is that necessarily a bad thing? If the crossbow is changed to no longer build uber, it would just stop arrow building (which is pretty retarded imo), but the whole "3 people standing around the medic waiting to get arrowed thing" would still happen. And the speed of team fights would stay at its accelerated pace.

So say you ban the crossbow, do these situations that people don't enjoy change into something more "fun"? I really don't think so. If your biggest gripe with the crossbow is that you have to sit there and arrow people 5 times in a row I really don't understand what you want from that situation to make it more "fun". You have to think about what an unlock adds to the game, and what the game becomes with the absence of that unlock. The people who are currently playing at the highest level are overwhelming in support of keeping the crossbow (am I wrong in this?). Overall the net benefit of the crossbow being in the game outweighs the negatives it brings and I don't think it should be banned (uber building needs to go though for real).