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Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

the fact that people honestly believe that ichigo becoming vizard made him slower is just major LOL .

kubo aint that dumb too make his heros bankai designed for speed to get slower just coz he hollow powers

if he made ichigo so fast every fight he would never be in danger it be more funny than a kenpachi kendo vs chad before power.
seriously get over the after image idea it was for art style not manga fact

edit:

look what happened when zommari classed to be best sonido user...kubo used afterimages...yes its a art style that is it

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

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Wounded and exhausted. It's been shown that tapping into one's full potential reiatsu fatigues them, likely from putting strain on the body. And when you're already exhausted and wounded, you can't strain your body too far. So no, he won't be hitting at 100% when tired and wounded.

Cutting, not Hitting. Cutting power is based on Reiatsu, hitting is based on all sorts of things. Meaning if he hits at all, the cutting power is the same, provided he's at 100%. Which thanks to to the cloak we know he is.

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Yet he started the fight fresh. What I said was, if Kenpachi was in the same position as Ichigo, he wouldn't have faired better. Meaning wounded and exhausted. Kenpachi and Nnoitora wore eachother down that fight. If Kenpachi had started pre-worn, he would have lost. Even after Kendo it took another strike to finish him.

He was dead after Kendo, he kept coming yes, but it was only a matter of time frankly. Which still mind doesn't change Ichigo being literally uncapable of cutting him with 100% reiatsu, while he could with only 1/3 of his overall power, when Ichigo previously in shikai overwhelmed 100%.

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If we're using your logic it is. You claim that Orihime is faster than Ichigo for being able to sneak an attack in edgewise while his back was turned, despite her being in no real danger yet and having a clear veiw of everything going on in front of her. Also, it's not like she herself moved in between both charactes and erected the shield on her own. Her little fairies did it. She managed to block an attack from a serious Ulqiorra. So her strength is atleast on par with Ichigo's, who was also able to block the attacks aswell, right?

No, if that's what you think that logic leads to you clearly missed the point. She's faster yes, being able to perceive and react to something Ichigo could not, which speaks in itself volumes of how slow he's gotton, despite seeing it coming with the same time frame to react as her. Her defensive powers however blow, the barrier shattered after that one hit, and her inability to do anything about the second strike means she'd die immediately after that. Assuming the first doesn't just blow past and cut her anyway.

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Unless she ran circles around him I don't see what your point is. He didn't run circles around him because there were more and more hollow to cut down. Infact, he probaby did cut down alot, quickly aswell, but it never mattered because they were neverending. Having trouble finding the actual chapter but I'm sure that's what happened.

He didn't cut down any, he charged in, was about to blow passed them, got bum rushed, and then his buddies come in and take care of it. The dude wasn't even released to PRODUCE any after that, and Ichigo couldn't even pull out a Getsuuga in the time before they attacked him, catching him, somehow, completely off guard. He's that slow.

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But yes, Grimmjow was faster than Byakuya.

Ichigo, not Byakuya. Byakuya can keep up with the espada with the 'fastest Sonido', albeit only barely without his bankai. Ichigo can barely keep up with Grimmjaw's, who isn't in the same category. The discrepancy here is massive.

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As for Byakuya being faster than Leroux...I'm not so sure it's by a large enough amount to matter, if at all. Not to mention Sonido speed isn't necessarily equal to overall movement speed.

True on the second bit, the first I'm not claiming however. The point in itself is Ichigo could not keep up to the same degree as Byakuya with an opponent with a far faster Sonido. Overall movement speed is one thing, once they start flashing around and Ichigo is having troubles clearly something is horribly wrong with that picture.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Originally Posted by Random101

Cutting, not Hitting. Cutting power is based on Reiatsu, hitting is based on all sorts of things. Meaning if he hits at all, the cutting power is the same, provided he's at 100%. Which thanks to to the cloak we know he is.

...you're mistaken my "hitting" with punches or kicks somehow, lol. I meant cutting. His reiatsu can be double what it was, but if he's physically inable to tap into it it doesn't matter. Kenpachi can't physically tap into his patched reiatsu, thus his attacks don't hit at full strength. Ichigo was tired, so the amount of reiatsu he could actually tap into wouldn't be his max, as he couldn't cut as hard as he could if he was fresh. He will not cut through something easily with 100% of his reiatsu if he's too weak to tap into all that reiatsu.

Originally Posted by Random101

He was dead after Kendo, he kept coming yes, but it was only a matter of time frankly. Which still mind doesn't change Ichigo being literally uncapable of cutting him with 100% reiatsu, while he could with only 1/3 of his overall power, when Ichigo previously in shikai overwhelmed 100%.

100% of reiatsu that he couldn't use. If Kenpachi had started that fight with 100% reiatsu, but was half dead then he wouldn't be able to tap into his full reserve of power (reiatsu), no matter how big it is.

Originally Posted by Random101

No, if that's what you think that logic leads to you clearly missed the point. She's faster yes, being able to perceive and react to something Ichigo could not, which speaks in itself volumes of how slow he's gotton, despite seeing it coming with the same time frame to react as her. Her defensive powers however blow, the barrier shattered after that one hit, and her inability to do anything about the second strike means she'd die immediately after that. Assuming the first doesn't just blow past and cut her anyway.

Or she's not faster, and she was only able to react to that attack because she didn't have to intercept it of her own speed, her fairies did it. Or, she's as slow as she really is, but because she was watching the whole fight she was able to time the shield to land in at that time. It's not like her back was turned and she had to turn around and fire one off, like Ichigo had to inorder to block.

Originally Posted by Random101

He didn't cut down any, he charged in, was about to blow passed them, got bum rushed, and then his buddies come in and take care of it. The dude wasn't even released to PRODUCE any after that, and Ichigo couldn't even pull out a Getsuuga in the time before they attacked him, catching him, somehow, completely off guard. He's that slow.

Oh, so they didn't outrun Ichigo's shunpo? He was just flying past as if they were fodder, not taking them seriously? Inotherwords, blindsided and his top speed wasn't ever brought into question? And his friends arrived before he could decide to show us the difference between his speed and theirs? Okay, that makes much more sense.

Originally Posted by Random101

Ichigo, not Byakuya. Byakuya can keep up with the espada with the 'fastest Sonido', albeit only barely without his bankai. Ichigo can barely keep up with Grimmjaw's, who isn't in the same category. The discrepancy here is massive.

It would be if the speed difference between Grimmjow and Leroux were massive, but it isn't, just like the speed difference between Ichigo and Byakuya wasn't massive (significant, but not massive).

Originally Posted by Random101

True on the second bit, the first I'm not claiming however. The point in itself is Ichigo could not keep up to the same degree as Byakuya with an opponent with a far faster Sonido. Overall movement speed is one thing, once they start flashing around and Ichigo is having troubles clearly something is horribly wrong with that picture.

Well if Ichigo's fear of using his full strength against Grimmjow doesn't come into consideration then I guess I'm done.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Originally Posted by ninjabot

You don't remember Ichigo getting that boost from Zangetsu, or his mask manifesting? It was also a one on one fight. Against Dordonii he was trying his best not to use his full strength while protecting Nel. And when he did get serious he finished him. Dordonii even tells him he didn't need to use his full strength to beat him. It took everything Ichigo had, plus help from Zangetsu to take down Kenpachi and it was still, technically a draw.

All this proves is that base Dordonii>Shikai Ichigo. Says nothing about Ichigo's bankai.

Yes, base Dordoni > shikai Ichigo which is a shame. It hints that Ichigo's bankai got weaker because it suggests Ichigo's shinigami powers weren't as strong as it was in SS arc. Ichigo's sub-par performance with bankai confirms that.

Ichigo in shikai state of release held his own against Kenpachi which must have been impossible. As Yoruichi explained it, Ichigo's bankai is much stronger than any form of Ichigo's shikai. If theoretically Ichigo's shikai could be on par with Kenpachi (and, by extension, Nnoitra), his bankai would have destroyed Grimmjow's resurreccion with ease. And the difference between bankai Ichigo vs sealed Grimmjow would be so great that Grimmjow would piss his pants.

Originally Posted by ninjabot

Again, Zommari had the best Sonido, but wasn't the fastest Espada. From what we've seen he was barely, if at all, faster than Grimmjow, and his released form is completely immobile. And Byakuya didn't outrun Zommari, he just kept up with his afterimages, reacting to them rather than outpacing them. And Ichigo failed against Grimmjow because of the reasons I stated above. Most likely atleast.

You lost me, what does this mean: "Zommari had the best Sonido, but wasn't the fastest Espada. From what we've seen he was barely, if at all, faster than Grimmjow". If having the best sonido doesn't make Zommari faster than Grimmjow, what else does Zommari need to prove that he is indeed faster than Grimmjow (in sealed forms)?

There are two parameters in determining speed: 1) the distance you can cover in one step 2) the number of steps you can perform in a given amount of time. I agree that Zommari may not be the fastest espada according to parameter 1 (Stark's speed feat when he captured Orihime suggests he is the leader in this category) but parameter 2 is much more important in a fight in which you don't cover great distances. And yes, Zommari was the fastest espada in this regard, saying he wasn't faster than Grimmjow doesn't help your case because you would be directly challenging manga evidence.

Since Zommari was faster than Grimmjow and Grimmjow easily kept up with Ichigo, Byakuya must have stood no chance against Zommari's speed because Byakuya had a hard time against Ichigo whose speed was on par with Grimmjow's which was slower (yes, slower) than Zommari's. Ichigo slowed down in arrancar arc and he needed his mask to regain his old speed.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

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...you're mistaken my "hitting" with punches or kicks somehow, lol. I meant cutting. His reiatsu can be double what it was, but if he's physically inable to tap into it it doesn't matter. Kenpachi can't physically tap into his patched reiatsu, thus his attacks don't hit at full strength. Ichigo was tired, so the amount of reiatsu he could actually tap into wouldn't be his max, as he couldn't cut as hard as he could if he was fresh. He will not cut through something easily with 100% of his reiatsu if he's too weak to tap into all that reiatsu.

That literally makes zero sense. How in the bloody hell does injury make you unable to tap into full power. Hell, Ichigo tapped into what he did to beat Kenpachi when he already had a life threatening wound. I mean when they're fatal injuries that bring them near death, sure, that screws them over, but we know that wasn't the case in this scenario.

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100% of reiatsu that he couldn't use. If Kenpachi had started that fight with 100% reiatsu, but was half dead then he wouldn't be able to tap into his full reserve of power (reiatsu), no matter how big it is.

Ichigo was already near dead thanks to the wound Kenpachi gave him was able to tap into supreme power to be able to overwhelm Kenpachi. Doesn't fly to say the least.

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Or she's not faster, and she was only able to react to that attack because she didn't have to intercept it of her own speed, her fairies did it. Or, she's as slow as she really is, but because she was watching the whole fight she was able to time the shield to land in at that time. It's not like her back was turned and she had to turn around and fire one off, like Ichigo had to inorder to block.

Timing it is literally impossible. Ichigo was screwed over due to an after image. Timing when to use something requires you to know when and where to put that something in at the right time when it's necessary. Something that's virtually impossible without future vision or some other BS unless you specifically could follow the person's movements. Suffice to say if Ichigo was affected by an afterimage, Orihime would be too, unless her perceptions and reaction speed are simply better.

Edit: And keep in mind, this wasn't a sneak attack either, which would be the only case in which you could reasonably argue someone who is much slower from an outside perspective could react where he couldn't. Ichigo DID see the blow coming, albeit only barely, he just literally could not move his body to block in time.

Similarly this is the guy who, with is previous level of speed, swung his sword so fast around himself that he was able to block an entire onslaught of petals coming from virtually all directions. Getting a blade behind him in a time frame Orihime used to call up, send out, and put a barrier up in time is child's play compared to that. Unless, again, he's not working at the same level.

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Oh, so they didn't outrun Ichigo's shunpo? He was just flying past as if they were fodder, not taking them seriously? Inotherwords, blindsided and his top speed wasn't ever brought into question? And his friends arrived before he could decide to show us the difference between his speed and theirs? Okay, that makes much more sense.

No, he got outright stalled due to them, unable to run past. Attempted to summon a Getsuuga and he couldn't because they stopped him, despite said so called superspeed. The same group Rukia was able to fight and defeat before the dude released to summon more, hence before she stopped him from summoning any at all. And he, somehow, couldn't do anything until they showed up?

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It would be if the speed difference between Grimmjow and Leroux were massive, but it isn't, just like the speed difference between Ichigo and Byakuya wasn't massive (significant, but not massive).

They are, Sonido speed wise at least. Grimmjaw is incapable of moving fast enough for clones like that with Sonido (Or regular movements, though granted if regular movements were up to that level who the hell needs Sonido). Hence why I'm specifically measuring their capabilities to deal with their high speed movements.

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Well if Ichigo's fear of using his full strength against Grimmjow doesn't come into consideration then I guess I'm done.

In his previous fights, sure, that's an issue. After that though in their final battle, considerably not so. Similar case with Ulquiorra too actually, which was probably the point in which he was actually doing his best in the arc, before the stupidity that followed. Though Ulquiorra is able to pull afterimages with sonido, they aren't to Zommari's level of THAT'S NOT HOW THAT WORKS, and he was still overwhelmed.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Originally Posted by Gran Maestro

Yes, base Dordoni > shikai Ichigo which is a shame. It hints that Ichigo's bankai got weaker because it suggests Ichigo's shinigami powers weren't as strong as it was in SS arc. Ichigo's sub-par performance with bankai confirms that.

No, it doesn't. The boost gained from Bankai isn't equal to the one gained in Shikai. Likewise, how could you get "shikai Ichigo is weaker than base Dordonii, so Bankai Ichigo is weaker than released Dordonii"? Not everyone increases at the same amount. Some don't even gain power boosts. And Dordonii tells us that Ichigo didn't need to Hollowfy to beat him. You also didn't mention how he was deliberatly holding back.

Originally Posted by GranMaestro

Ichigo in shikai state of release held his own against Kenpachi which must have been impossible. As Yoruichi explained it, Ichigo's bankai is much stronger than any form of Ichigo's shikai. If theoretically Ichigo's shikai could be on par with Kenpachi (and, by extension, Nnoitra), his bankai would have destroyed Grimmjow's resurreccion with ease. And the difference between bankai Ichigo vs sealed Grimmjow would be so great that Grimmjow would piss his pants.

And as Byakuya explains it, all of that extra power gained from Ichigo's Bankai is compressed and used for speed. Had it increased his strength he would have been ragdolling Byakuya around the battlefield as he could already fight on equal footing against Byakuya hand to hand. So taking that one building block for that argument out negates the rest.

Originally Posted by GranMaestro

You lost me, what does this mean: "Zommari had the best Sonido, but wasn't the fastest Espada. From what we've seen he was barely, if at all, faster than Grimmjow". If having the best sonido doesn't make Zommari faster than Grimmjow, what else does Zommari need to prove that he is indeed faster than Grimmjow (in sealed forms)?

It means that shunpo, just like sonido, is a technique used to boost one from one point to another. One can be running at their own speed, then boost themself further with flash step. If one person's foot speed has been shown to be greater than another, and the other person's shunpo speed has been shown to be faster than the other, who do you classify as the full on fastest between the two? Grimmjow can release and gain speed, but Leroux becomes immobile after releasing. So in the end, Grimmjow's faster.

In sealed forms, Zommari's a smidge faster. I guess.

Originally Posted by Gran Maestro

There are two parameters in determining speed: 1) the distance you can cover in one step 2) the number of steps you can perform in a given amount of time. I agree that Zommari may not be the fastest espada according to parameter 1 (Stark's speed feat when he captured Orihime suggests he is the leader in this category) but parameter 2 is much more important in a fight in which you don't cover great distances. And yes, Zommari was the fastest espada in this regard, saying he wasn't faster than Grimmjow doesn't help your case because you would be directly challenging manga evidence.

Pre-release he is a step or two ahead of Grimmjow, hardly enough to be considered much faster. Post release he can't make ANY steps.

Originally Posted by GranMaestro

Since Zommari was faster than Grimmjow and Grimmjow easily kept up with Ichigo, Byakuya must have stood no chance against Zommari's speed because Byakuya had a hard time against Ichigo whose speed was on par with Grimmjow's which was slower (yes, slower) than Zommari's. Ichigo slowed down in arrancar arc and he needed his mask to regain his old speed.

Again, the actual differenc in speed between Leroux and Grimmjow wasn't immense, and Byakuya was eventually almost caught by Leroux. The argument I'm making is no matter who's the fastest, Byakuya, Ichigo, Grimmjow, and Leroux are all around the same speed tier, with one of them having a neat trick (that ultimately failed to outpace Byakuya at the level one might expect) and ends up losing that speed after releasing. Byakuya was slower that Ichigo back then, but that was just his bankai being outpaced. He didn't get into a foot race with him, and when he actually did he kept up with him just fine (before he started getting slower).

Originally Posted by Random101

That literally makes zero sense. How in the bloody hell does injury make you unable to tap into full power. Hell, Ichigo tapped into what he did to beat Kenpachi when he already had a life threatening wound. I mean when they're fatal injuries that bring them near death, sure, that screws them over, but we know that wasn't the case in this scenario

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Originally Posted by ninjabot

No, it doesn't. The boost gained from Bankai isn't equal to the one gained in Shikai. Likewise, how could you get "shikai Ichigo is weaker than base Dordonii, so Bankai Ichigo is weaker than released Dordonii"? Not everyone increases at the same amount. Some don't even gain power boosts. And Dordonii tells us that Ichigo didn't need to Hollowfy to beat him. You also didn't mention how he was deliberatly holding back.

Huh, when did I say "shikai Ichigo is weaker than base Dordonii, so Bankai Ichigo is weaker than released Dordonii"? It's irrelevant. If your shikai is seemingly much weaker than its old self, your bankai is also expected to be weaker than its old self, this is what I said. Don't you agree with my argument that shikai Ichigo's strength dropped? In that case, isn't it reasonable to assume that his bankai strength also dropped?

Originally Posted by ninjabot

And as Byakuya explains it, all of that extra power gained from Ichigo's Bankai is compressed and used for speed. Had it increased his strength he would have been ragdolling Byakuya around the battlefield as he could already fight on equal footing against Byakuya hand to hand. So taking that one building block for that argument out negates the rest.

The nature of bankai is irrelevant, a bankai increases your combat abilities 5-10 times. Ichigo's bankai increased Ichigo's combat abilities to great extent, Byakuya was crushing Ichigo's shikai, Ichigo managed to hold his own in bankai. Ichigo's bankai was much stronger than his shikai, that much is a fact.

Now that we established Ichigo gained a significant power boost with bankai, would you care to explain to me this paradox? Ichigo's shikai was strong enough to take on Kenpachi (even when he was in a critical condition but withstanding the injuries with reiatsu), Kenpachi is strong enough to take on Nnoitra (resurreccion), Nnoitra (resurreccion) is much stronger than Grimmjow (sealed), Ichigo's bankai is much stronger than Ichigo's shikai, how on earth did Ichigo's bankai fail to curbstomp Grimmjow (sealed)? There's no plausible argument other than the fact that Ichigo lost a significant amount of strength.

Originally Posted by ninjabot

It means that shunpo, just like sonido, is a technique used to boost one from one point to another. One can be running at their own speed, then boost themself further with flash step. If one person's foot speed has been shown to be greater than another, and the other person's shunpo speed has been shown to be faster than the other, who do you classify as the full on fastest between the two? Grimmjow can release and gain speed, but Leroux becomes immobile after releasing. So in the end, Grimmjow's faster.

In sealed forms, Zommari's a smidge faster. I guess.

Grimmjow's or Zommari's released forms are irrelevant, we're comparing their sealed forms. Why do we compare their sealed forms? Because we're comparing Byakuya vs Zommari (sealed) and Ichigo vs Grimmjow (sealed). Zommari was much faster than Grimmjow, he was able to perform lots of consecutive steps (hence the clones) in combat which means his speed was "harder to keep up with" than Grimmjow's. Byakuya failed to react to Ichigo's speed but Grimmjow didn't fail to react to Ichigo's speed. Byakuya didn't fail to react to Zommari's speed even though Zommari was faster than Grimmjow. Can you figure out the only variable here? That's right, it's Ichigo and his lack of speed and thus less effective bankai.

The problems in your argument:

1) You say Zommari's speed was practically equal to Grimmjow's speed even though it directly contradicts the manga evidence.

2) Even if we assume their speed were equal (they weren't), you can't explain the paradox "Why did Byakuya fail to react to Ichigo's speed if Grimmjow was able to do so? If Grimmjow had better reaction speed than Byakuya, how did Byakuya react to Zommari's speed?"

Originally Posted by ninjabot

Yeah... think I really am done here, lol.

If you'll say "Zommari isn't faster than Grimmjow" or talk about irrelevant subjects instead of focusing on paradoxes, I think it's best.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Hmm let's see:
1. Aizen noted that ichigo was not as strong as he would have expected
2. Gin stated that ichigo was failed compared to the first time gin saw ichigo, which was back in SS.

Ichigo basically sucked compared to his old self in SS. Posters above have already gave evidence as to why that is.

Another things funny is ichigo in shikai got made a fool by weakling hiyori. If he really was stronger than he was in SS, he should have kicked her ass with his hands behind his back. Unless u are to argue hiyori is as strong as kenpachi ... if so, I suggest u read the manga again

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

To be fair about that bit, Ichigo was so down in the dumps at that point and so terrified of his hollow that that scene in question was probably his weakest point of all, bar extremely early in the series. He clearly got better once he got control, though I still say he's significantly weaker to say the least.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

HM arc vizard ichigo takes this. HM arc ichigo isn't majorly slower then his SS counterpart. He still blitzed yammy 3 times who in turn can react to a sneak attack from a captain effortlessly in base. The poor feats are all due to ichigo not having mastered his hollow he fluctuates widly from time to time. The ichigo after before his vizard training can spar equally with a captain. And manage pretty well against hiyori besides having to train to master his hollowfication. But in HM he get's trashed by a Privaron. Assuming this ichigo is stable he should still boost a decent amount of speed now added with the black Getsuga thensou and mask he has a huge poweradvantage. He should take this with difficulty due to former's speed.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Hmm let's see:
1. Aizen noted that ichigo was not as strong as he would have expected
2. Gin stated that ichigo was failed compared to the first time gin saw ichigo, which was back in SS.

Ichigo basically sucked compared to his old self in SS. Posters above have already gave evidence as to why that is.

Another things funny is ichigo in shikai got made a fool by weakling hiyori. If he really was stronger than he was in SS, he should have kicked her ass with his hands behind his back. Unless u are to argue hiyori is as strong as kenpachi ... if so, I suggest u read the manga again

Ichigo didnt really want to go all out on Hiyori though, she was going all out on him, full force not holding back. As soon as Ichigo let go, He could have easily killed Hiyori. And that was only his hollow in Shikai form.

Yes it was stated by Aizen and Gin that Ichigo did get weaker compared to his SS Self, mostly because of his resolve continuoulsy wavering and the fact that he stopped believing in himself. As noted by Gin when he was dying, Ichigo is at peak when his eyes dont have any fear in them :P

Still, even if HM Ichigo was slighlty weaker because of his resolve, i dont see SS Ichigo surviving multiple GT induced swords

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

I don't think aizen ever said that.... Still, we know for a fact that the badge he got from SS shortly after SS arc was in fact restraining his reiatsu to an unknown degree and that is what could have caused his apparent weakness afterwards to some degree. I would go for a tie or perhaps masked ichigo being marginally stronger than ichigo in SS with just bankai for the most part.

Re: SS Ichigo vs. HM (Vaizard) Ichigo

Originally Posted by kkck

I don't think aizen ever said that.... Still, we know for a fact that the badge he got from SS shortly after SS arc was in fact restraining his reiatsu to an unknown degree and that is what could have caused his apparent weakness afterwards to some degree. I would go for a tie or perhaps masked ichigo being marginally stronger than ichigo in SS with just bankai for the most part.

I dont think Ichigo from SS would have stood much of a chance against the Arrancars, especially Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. His mask greatly increased his strength. Id say Masked Ichigo is significantly stronger than SS Ichigo IMO