But your initial argument revolves around a broken down QB whose family sees itself as NFL royalty posturing about something it has zero control over at the end of the day.

A guy who, incidentally, has spent his entire HoF career in a smaller midwestern market and done quite well for himself in terms of salary and advertising opps. A guy who has drawn talent in terms of free agents that helped the team's cause and who won a title.

Stars in the NFL typically stay with their teams through the primes of their careers. In part because of the system and in part because of the size of rosters.

That simply doesn't remotely compare to what's going on in the NBA in terms of player movement.

Larry Hughes was paid a lot of money to play for the Cavaliers. That money would have been equally acceptable to other stars and studs who took the same amount or less to play somewhere other than Cleveland. I don't blame them for that. But to say there is equal and competitive balance in terms of how franchises can compete for talent isn't truthful or accurate.

Not altogether many situations better (competitively speaking) than the one in OKC. Let's see how that plays out when it's time for the rubber to hit the road?

aybe it's ultimately apples and oranges with the NFL and the NBA. But there are plenty of people who like apples and who won't touch oranges and vice versa. I don't know why we have to take sides on it. The fact I believe one provides more player stability in terms of fan attachment doesn't mean I don't see the warts.

Oh... and I don't think athletes leaving a dead end for a better situation is a bad thing. I'm just amazed that apparently the only non dead end situations are on beaches, coasts or in really large media/metropolitan areas and never in Salt Lake, Milwaukee, Indiana or Denver.

Lastly, I have no issue with your last statement, I'm fine with liking apples more than oranges. Just don't go somewhere spitting on oranges because of their "CBA system" every chance you get when the difference are born from the inherent nature of the sport, not the CBA. Everyone likes what they like, no need to hate because of what you like. Stop doing it to me and I won't come here to rub it in your faces when a family shows a true arrogance regarding it's place in the spectrum of the sport they play and display the furthest thing from loyalty after being handed a ring and the keys to the kingdom.

peeker643 wrote:Oh... and I don't think athletes leaving a dead end for a better situation is a bad thing. I'm just amazed that apparently the only non dead end situations are on beaches, coasts or in really large media/metropolitan areas and never in Salt Lake, Milwaukee, Indiana or Denver.

Denver is the one exception.

LA is the one on the other side of the coin.

I'm just saying right now, in this decade, the big markets fucked up for half of it and saw an out that they executed getting to perfectly.

peeker643 wrote:Oh... and I don't think athletes leaving a dead end for a better situation is a bad thing. I'm just amazed that apparently the only non dead end situations are on beaches, coasts or in really large media/metropolitan areas and never in Salt Lake, Milwaukee, Indiana or Denver.

Denver is the one exception.

LA is the one on the other side of the coin.

I'm just saying right now, in this decade, the big markets fucked up for half of it and saw an out that they executed getting to perfectly.

Well, a couple of them anyway.

I'd dispute that the Knicks have done anything the right way in the last ten- fifteen years.

e0y2e3 wrote:What big FAs did Peyton draw? Not trying to be a dick, but a list would be nice.

I didn't say 'big' FAs. I said Manning helped draw free agents and mostly the system type guys that ultimately ended up helping get them their ring. Guys like George Lilja, Dominic Rhodes, Gary Brackett, Adam Vinatieri, Jeff Saturday, etc.

Once the Colts realized what they had in Manning so did others. And guys like Saturday and Lilja were perfect fits to play in Manning's cerebral offense.

e0"Just don't go somewhere spitting on oranges because of their "CBA system" every chance you get when the difference are born from the inherent nature of the sport, not the CBA."

In a sport where the individual piece is paramount, finding a legit #1 very difficult, and getting the 1a/2 just about impossible wouldn't a CBA that restricted movement like the NFL's be better for the fan?

It boils down to target customer. The NFL has done a better job at targeting Joe fan across the spectrum. The NBA has done an even better job of targeting big market/big market fan and miser mid-market owners who are content to siphon money when they are good every so often or by being the Washington Generals. Has nothing to do with the inherent nature of the sport or its players. Its all on the owners. This last session pretty much iced that... The competitive balance stuff was a load of shit.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

When has the NFL system, ever, prevented an uphappy player from leaving?

The difference is that young superstars more often then not have to adapt to the NFL so it takes a few years before their elitism is payable and by then good teams develop talent around them or trade them.

Braylon and Kellen were traded by the Browns right after they were ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS.

e0y2e3 wrote:When has the NFL system, ever, prevented an uphappy player from leaving?

The franchise tag does that every year in many cases.

The difference is that young superstars more often then not have to adapt to the NFL so it takes a few years before their elitism is payable and by then good teams develop talent around them or trade them.

Braylon and Kellen were traded by the Browns right after they were ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS.

I really don't understand how this argument has gotten here to be honest, I just want people to understand that their are inherent differences in what they are talking about due to the fundamental differences of the sports they are discussing.

And beyond that to hate cocksuckers in all sports equally.

I really don't think this is asking for much.

I'm not looking to call one sport supreme to the other, just looking to end the excuses and push the understanding that A is genetically different than B so we have to either accept each or stop hating the other.

Orenthal wrote:eh, the last paragraph of my last post sums up my feelings.

Come on CAVS!

Single game tickets go on sale December 10th!

I was on the team site looking at 20 something game ticket packages for some humor. To my comedic delight, they're prices start at $20 per ticket! I puked in my mouth when I saw that. 20 dollars per game for shitty nosebleeds..... absolutely amazing. You'd think they'd start out a little lower considering the darkness of the barrel the Cavs are looking into this season.

"e0y2e3" When has the NFL system, ever, prevented an uphappy player from leaving?

SD:

how about the first 70 years of their existence before so called free agency ,or just a few months ago when Mike Brown assigned Palmer to NFL purgatory when he had the audacity to ask for a trade, or when a team who doesn't want to pay you but don't want you going on your happy way slaps the franchise taf on ya , and chains you to their table leg.

e0>

The difference is that young superstars more often then not have to adapt to the NFL so it takes a few years before their elitism is payable and by then good teams develop talent around them or trade them.

SD:

I dunno , in regard to running back , a fresh Adrian Peterson right out of College is worth more when he starts then after five years of wear and tear , while a Franchise type talent at QB takes a few years to get good at what he's doing , or play beyond their football instincts and actually dissect NFL defenses like a surgeon , there is an unforseen benefit to drafting a player like a QB who may not be ready for a few years .

The marquee QB transcends all other positions , it raises fan hopes expectations and ticket sales , and puts the team on notice that the time is now , they raise the stock of the franchise the minute they are aquired.

e0>

Braylon and Kellen were traded by the Browns right after they were ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS.

SD:

Well Braylon is on a Division winning championship team , so whats holding him back , a marginally better QB than DA in Alex Smith , or the fact he's fuckin looney tune bitch ass cocksucker.

On Winslow , he killed his own career on the back of a motorcycle and with a much better QB than anything he had throwing too him at Cleveland , he's done little to remind anybody he's the son of one of the greatest TE's who ever played the game.

There ahead of us now , if they employ the Indy way and don't win another game we can't catch them .

But quit worrying about us winning games , the only way that happens is if Colt breaks his neck tonight and we trot out the professional QB's on the roster in lieu of Homie pet project.

Thirdly and get this straight , if these putzes sit on their collective dumbasses and let anybody take a QB we want ahead of us other than Indy , then Lerner should clean house , starting with Big pimpins worthless so called QB guru fake ass.

This draft however does make sense , if we back up the brinks and sign Flynn as a free agent , anything else is unacceptable.

e0y2e3 wrote:I really don't understand how this argument has gotten here to be honest, I just want people to understand that their are inherent differences in what they are talking about due to the fundamental differences of the sports they are discussing.

And beyond that to hate cocksuckers in all sports equally.

I really don't think this is asking for much.

I'm not looking to call one sport supreme to the other, just looking to end the excuses and push the understanding that A is genetically different than B so we have to either accept each or stop hating the other.

When did you go all peace and love? The sentimental shit around the holidays drives me crazy. Anyway, you bring up some really good points, but to me it's not as much about the differences in the sports as it is in the demographics of the fan base, as you note above.

I can tell you that even in a relatively basketball savvy town like Houston, peeps are very divided about the direction of the league, and for the boomer generation most everyone is "Screw the Heat. Screw the Knicks. They shouldn't be allowed to do that." Younger fans are "More power to them. We should be able to that here"

It should be noted that Houston sports fans are notoriously delusional, believing they have a great chance at CP3 is one example.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

mattvan1 wrote:I can tell you that even in a relatively basketball savvy town like Houston, peeps are very divided about the direction of the league, and for the boomer generation most everyone is "Screw the Heat. Screw the Knicks. They shouldn't be allowed to do that." Younger fans are "More power to them. We should be able to that here"

This honestly is something I'm still trying to wrap my head around and is what I was getting at when sports wise I said I don't see black and white re: franchises locations, but instead well run and poorly teams.

It gets at what my friend @ReasonsImaDrank answered my piece on IGOHARDNOW with... you older people have some kind of sport related geographic disease that I really can't understand.

My problems with my home state and sports aren't the fact that they are in Ohio, but the stupid people react to the organizations, especially the worst run organization in the history of sports the Neo-Browns.

And Braylon and Kellen were leaving unless overpaid, thus they were traded.

I'll give you SA. OKC hasn't had it's Come to Jesus moment yet. But it's coming. Memphis had a year. Let's not start blowing them just yet. And Portland hasn't won shit. They won two more games than the fucked up Hornets last year and didn't get out of the 1st round.

SA is the model and the dream for all such markets. That's one. That's it.

e0y2e3 wrote:Do you want a list of NFL Tagged guys that have demanded trades and gotten them?

And no, neither of them did, but they were dumped before anyone knew where they were getting.

The big difference there is that the NFL franchise tag strongarms other teams into paying a fair price for the player that wants out (i.e. starting with a first round pick, which is probably equivalent to a top 10 pick in the NBA). The team doesn't have to be at the whim of which coastal city Superstar X deems worthy of him like in the NBA. The extend-and-trade thing limits your compensation options by nature which drives the price down.

Now, like you said, the difference in sports prevents the NBA from ever crafting a system that's an exact equivalent. When the popularity of your sport is heavily concentrated into 10-15 guys who just don't want to play in small markets, you're limited in what you can do to combat that. But I don't see what the harm would have been in eliminating sign-and-trades altogether (putting more pressure on high priced in-season deals like Melo's, which NY in retrospect was dumb for taking when he was coming in free agency anyway) and beefing up Bird rights even more to really make the money difference a factor (i.e. $4-5MM per year, not a token raise increase that the lack of a state tax in in Florida/Texas could make up for and not just a meaningless extra year for someone who doesn't even want to be tied down for an extra year and is getting max money for the next 10 years anyway).

As far as Peyton, again, point taken about the difference in sports. But like someone else said, the Colts hold absolutely all the cards here. They could have them both if they really want to, they could get value for Peyton if they really want to, they could trade out of #1 and get value for Luck if they really want to. The fact that Manning is whining is kind of an annoyance rather than something holding the franchise hostage.

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

Melo and two of the worst contracts in the history of the league (hint: one was Curry).

LBJ, Wade and Bosh proved that players that are FAs will sign elsewhere for less if they want, with or without the S & T.

What the Cavs got back for LBJ was shit on a stick, but it's better than nothing.

And when is the last time a Franchise QB held a franchise hostage and didn't get what he wanted? Eli? Elway? Cutler? That is the one position in the NFL THAT IS like being an NBA Superstar.

And bitch please, half of these franchise guys that are traded for second and third round picks, stop lying to yourself.

Only 3 in the previous CBA but you can't deny that the issue is becoming more and more prevalent. And yes, LeBron took less money in Florida but that's kind of my point. It was $1-$2MM a year difference, which Florida's lack of a state tax probably made up for. I don't see what would be wrong with a $5MM or even $10MM advantage per year for incumbent teams. The team doesn't have to pay it if they don't want to and the player doesn't have to accept it if they don't want to.

Also,

Eli=Rivers, Merriman, Kaeding, and a fifth rounder they traded for a starting lineman

Cutler= Two first rounders, Orton (who was OK at the time) plus more that I can't think of right now

Sure, some tagged guys get traded for second rounders but I'm willing to guess that was fair market value for the guy. What the Cavs got for LeBron and the Raptors got for Bosh was the equivalent of two 6th rounders in the NFL.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

YOU, in my experience, don't go out of your way to cry and bitch about the league. You like what you like and keep your mouth shut and watch what you watch.

And I think you have no problems admitting that the Manning Clan is as clear an example of cocky fucks expecting the world to bow to their demands as anyone out there.

So, hey, no issues.

I'm with you on the Mannings BTW

If Peyton wasn't such a greedy fuck, his teams could have been better

I also think the Colts are a victim of his success ala Marino

There is just no challenging him anymore as in his mind he's never wrong

I remember watching the Colts in a buig game when Dungy was still coach. Dungy sent in a play...Manning audibled and the play went no where

At that moment, Dungy may as well have just walked off the field

If I'm the Colts I dump him in a NY minute....his window has closed

SD:

The $28.8 million dollar option has to be picked up before the league year so they can't trade him especially when you factor in his additional 7.7 million dollar salary for really big shit pie of a cap breaker.

So its conceivable that FUDU's be all end all hero could be a March cut and the Colts don't get shit for him .

Makes him then tradable or gives the Colts the flexibility to keep both .

How this guy who can't take a hit and choked away numerous big games , and got lucky enough that he was out choked by Grosman in the big dance rates such treatment is why we should look at swappin colt for a bag of beans and adding a star so the Browns can return to relevancy .

Without a star signal caller in a game where it is all about the QB without a stud , Your Franchise doesn't exist and you are irrelevant ergo the Browns.

Also, I'll give you that the Melo and D-Will trades and the rumored CP3/Howard trades involve pretty fair compensation and are a step in the right direction. But I'd still like to see the offseason sign and trades be eliminated as a carrot for players in these negotiations.

And I forgot that they can't trade Manning because of his giant roster bonus. But they can still keep him if they really want to and they can always try and re-negotiate with him to get a trade going.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

Kingpin74 wrote:Also, I'll give you that the Melo and D-Will trades and the rumored CP3/Howard trades involve pretty fair compensation and are a step in the right direction. But I'd still like to see the offseason sign and trades be eliminated as a carrot for players in these negotiations.

And I forgot that they can't trade Manning because of his giant roster bonus. But they can still keep him if they really want to and they can always try and re-negotiate with him to get a trade going.

So you are going to bitch about a league on the whole because two FA's ran away for no money.

Every example since involves teams getting fair compensation.

This is my point.

Then don't watch or talk about the NBA, because it is the NBA. The Decision happened and the league has adjusted. You are the only one that hasn't.

Kingpin74 wrote:Also, I'll give you that the Melo and D-Will trades and the rumored CP3/Howard trades involve pretty fair compensation and are a step in the right direction. But I'd still like to see the offseason sign and trades be eliminated as a carrot for players in these negotiations.

And I forgot that they can't trade Manning because of his giant roster bonus. But they can still keep him if they really want to and they can always try and re-negotiate with him to get a trade going.

So you are going to bitch about a league on the whole because two FA's ran away for no money.

Every example since involves teams getting fair compensation.

This is my point.

Then don't watch or talk about the NBA, because it is the NBA. The Decision happened and the league has adjusted. You are the only one that hasn't.

Now that the Cavs are dead anyway, I'm actually kind of enjoying the trade chatter. And I've never denied that the actual NBA product is great. I just would have liked to see the league go a little further with the safeguards for small market teams. Maybe LeBron and Bosh would have taken $6MM less to go to Miami but that kind of difference might sway someone else in the future if allowed. And yes, guilty as charged for having trouble following basketball the same way after The Decision. I don't know why that's such a controversial opinion. Hard to ever have the same passion when your favorite team basically gets executed (much of it their own fault, but still).

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: The Jazz got great value for D-Will, the Nuggets okay value for Melo and the Hornets and Magic are working on getting good value for their players.

The only franchises that fucked up were Toronto and Cleveland.

Shocker.

Toronto, yes.

Cleveland did what they had to do. Fielded the best team in the NBA that season and tried to win a championship. Thinking (based on what he said I believe) that was the best way to keep him. Then he "hurt his elbow" and they flamed out.

I was as harsh on Danny Ferry as just about anyone on these boards for that period of time. Agree 100% he failed to build the right way around that bitch. But that bitch played a role in that, which is something YOU were always pretty adamant about.

You honestly think the Cavs would have been able to trade LeBitch while they were coasting to the #1 seed? They had no choice in that regard.

And ^^^^ is the one and only time you will see me defend the choices of that franchise. Now I must go shower.