Simon of the Playa wrote:oh, one more thing, ms. giggle, you wouldnt have happened to have joined E-Playa on your birthday perchance?

i have a hunch...

Lol! Oh heavens to betsy no...and it is mister I assure you. I have been attendIng since 1996 so no need to sell me on what it is you do, I have first hand experience. Your snark may go down well with your culture but really I'm just trying to speak YOUR language, not mine. You responded to my post after all with your spartan comment, which by the way I did think was funny. I just don't want to feel your backhand like in your own root society thread beat down on that poster from Baal. Anyway, none of that matters really...what matters is you and your crew engaging the community in a transparent way per the topic of this discussion.

I am sure you are certainly not the only camp whose long term members did not get tIckets due to the edc/Coachella mentality of newcomers this year. Every long term theme camp is in the same boat. The question becomes really "now what?". Some will pack it in altogether...others will make do with their limited numbers...and a very select few will do what you guys are doing which is to bolster your ranks by any means necessary. Of course, if you have been following this thread and I bet you have, you will see how tricky the idea of camps having "clients" truly is. After all is said and done what is really at stake is the "supposed" idea that some camps are more critical to the event than others. Such that they can bend the ideals of the community as they please to realize their (large scale) dreams. So props for addressing how Root plans to make it happen this year. My only issue is throwing around the so called popular dj's convo's because it feels less sincere. For example if Amon tobin DOES wanna burn does it make Root Society more legitimate than if Amon played every tIny dj sound system he can find? Should there even BE a pro/amateur classification at the event? Who really cares in the end? It's not like BM is a concert so fudge all that ego nonsense.

I hope, snark aside, you can see the seriousness of this discussion and how it impacts the culture going forward. As a long time burner I have a pretty big stake and investment...so here is to hoping you hear what I am saying...

chromatest wrote:This is the attitude that saddens me. As a DJ with dusty white skin, and a lover of more types of music than you (ignore the sweeping generalization), I must say that if YOU want your favorite type of music on the playa, then YOU will need to bring it. Don't complain that you can't drink Heinekin (fuck that shit) when everybody brings Pabst Blue Ribbon (and you didn't bring any at all)!

Um, what attitude exactly? Your response drips with entitlement and privilege due to that dusty white skin you mention. I also HIGHLY doubt you love more music I do...but let's not get into a straight pissing contest, let me just say that I too am a dj, audio engineer, sound designer, etc.

Understand I am NOT talking about bringing music to the playa via cd's and hard drives...I am talking about the people who perform music. Large scale sound camps have say on who they want to invite etc. You may or may not remember a camp by the name of Plug Research...they made it their duty to bring more "options" to the musical table for a few years and I really applauded them for that. You can of course find ANY AND EVERY type of music being played on small systems as you meander about the playa, my point is that for the large sound camps they mostly are monolithic in their approach. Maybe it is to please the lowest common denominator of playa dancers, who knows? All I am saying is Carl Cox shouldn't be the only black dj consistently spinning at the event each year.

Anyway, i don't see why you felt the need to attack me in the first place. Is what I am saying not true? Hmm?

Lol, a person who designs sound for film, video games, etc. Someone who might be a member of the AES (Audio Engineering Society). I don't mean a DJ or beat producer...although they create sounds too sometimes!

I've been marveling lately at how thorough Apatow is with that sort of thing.There must be thirty minutes of different music on one of his dvds.And I'm only referring to incidental music in the menu, not in the content!

I am referring to the rather pretentious transition of cameraman to "videographer", as though it matters.

Your work stands, ... or not.

Absolutely and totally agree! I'm a post production dude who use to work on SGI's and now you can run the same software on iMacs, lol. Anyway doesn't matter how many canon 5D's you can afford, being a videographer is a world away from being a cinematographer in the ASC (which currently has only like 315 members worldwide). But I didn't just buy pro tools, I actually have an audio engineering degree...I apologize if I came off pretentious..the eplaya snark factor is contagious!

im going to paraphrase something that been the source of many discussions on and off the e-playa..

"all in all, i dont see the great "shake up" as a bad thing, not that things had gotten stale, but this year will be a watershed or a dustshed as the case may be, and how we handle the change will determine how we move forward, or not...

i think the harsh elements being super harsh will add to the natural bonding that goes on when people are faced with an outside force that is greater and stronger than they are and they NEED other people and NEED to cooperate just to survive.

the common shared struggle is a powerful influence on how people behave towards one another.

i for one hope we get the mother of all dust storms so this natural psychological phenomena does occur, in spades."

yes, we are all dusty when that wind starts to blow, and the ones that smile thru the grit and still have the greatest time of their lives, and enthusiastically speak of how fucking wonderful burning man was after enduring a desert version of hell are the ones who will build our city in the future, be they Veteran or Newb.

After all is said and done what is really at stake is the "supposed" idea that some camps are more critical to the event than others. Such that they can bend the ideals of the community as they please to realize their (large scale) dreams.

this is a very interesting statement especially with the recent hiccup concerning Shady Asylum and their sod.

they are breaking the rules.

the BMORG is making an exception because they are PROFESSIONAL and safe and know what the hell they are doing.

kinda like Poi spinning...

one idiot newb with a stray poi ball could potentially light half the city on fire.

how do we regulate who plays with what?

who decides what is safe, and who has the expertise to handle those issues.

After seeing all of the facts presented, i am no longer adamant about no sod, ONLY in this camp, because they know what they are doing and they are taking great lengths to make sure this is the case.

obviously, as the community continues to grow, we will run into more instances of this nature.

this sorta reminds me of the summer i shot up 10-11" in height

i had night pains, and cramps, and i had to wear shorts all the time as my inseam changed almost daily.

Burning Man is experiencing Growth Pains, and hopefully, after all the charlie horses, will walk tall, and continue on.

seriously, i know people should be allowed to do stupid stuff, even dangerous (UberCarney...rides that hurt!) but its more about others.

somebody hanging 30 ft off the ground from the dome because they are having a spider man motif to their acid trip is a danger to the People Below.

they're the ones who will end up being human crash pads, not the schmuck who fell.

Ditto for the speakers....those monsters weigh...the are REALLY heavy, and are not meant to be climbed on in an attempt to hump the subwoofer during a really bitching womp womp...if it falls over on someone, squish...

anyone we find "out of it" we take care of, give them water, maybe some food, and see if they need assistance other than a nice sit down.

it's non-stop, especially in the Big Sound Camps.....sometimes our audience is having too much "fun" to realize they are jeopardizing themselves and others....thats what we do, try to prevent these things from happening.

you'll never really hear of anything until someone DOES get hurt, and so far, although we have had incidents, based on the sheer volume of people, i think we do pretty good.

yes, i know, read the back of your ticket, you could die, radical self responsibility...let the chips fall where they may, but i cannot in good conscience allow something bad to happen that i can stop. Everybody makes Mistakes, many get a little too wasted every now and then and wear the stupid decision pants.

this does not mean we are your mother, and we will coddle and take care of you, but we do care, and sometimes burners need help before they get into trouble, either with themselves or others, and thats what we try to look out for.

seriously, i know people should be allowed to do stupid stuff, even dangerous (UberCarney...rides that hurt!) but its more about others.

somebody hanging 30 ft off the ground from the dome because they are having a spider man motif to their acid trip is a danger to the People Below.

they're the ones who will end up being human crash pads, not the schmuck who fell.

Ditto for the speakers....those monsters weigh...the are REALLY heavy, and are not meant to be climbed on in an attempt to hump the subwoofer during a really bitching womp womp...if it falls over on someone, squish...

anyone we find "out of it" we take care of, give them water, maybe some food, and see if they need assistance other than a nice sit down.

it's non-stop, especially in the Big Sound Camps.....sometimes our audience is having too much "fun" to realize they are jeopardizing themselves and others....thats what we do, try to prevent these things from happening.

you'll never really hear of anything until someone DOES get hurt, and so far, although we have had incidents, based on the sheer volume of people, i think we do pretty good.

yes, i know, read the back of your ticket, you could die, radical self responsibility...let the chips fall where they may, but i cannot in good conscience allow something bad to happen that i can stop. Everybody makes Mistakes, many get a little too wasted every now and then and wear the stupid decision pants.

this does not mean we are your mother, and we will coddle and take care of you, but we do care, and sometimes burners need help before they get into trouble, either with themselves or others, and thats what we try to look out for.

if this is un-burny, well fucking sue me.

I respect this. I once heard a train engineer talk about what it was like to be driving the train when a suicide jumped beneath. Not an experience I'd want (yeah, yeah, irony, not the point of this post). I do not want to be the agent of a fellow human's death.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Simon of the Playa wrote:you wanna get hurt? slide down a 4 story 45 degree angle on hot astro turf....

That's why I wore leather pants when I did that, hell I usually wear those pants when I'm planning to do something dangerous. But that didn't stop me from almost breaking my own arm in Thunderdome that year. I think I also need to get a 10 oz leather shirt just like my leather pants.

I finally finished this topic and I can say say that I can tell which people posting view PnP camps as their livelihood. I'm sorry, and you are not going to change my mind on this, but if you are supporting your camp through this practice, it makes it hard for me to buy into how your actions benefit the event.

I'm referring to to the camps who are clearly making money off of their customers.

May Shai-Hulud clear the path for you.

Kомиссáр Logan

Over here sand blows; over there sand blows.Over there a rich man waits; over here I wait.Secrets give birth to more secrets

having never walked away on the plus side (except for one year, my bike broke down, i hitched from ohio to the site w my saddlebags, i volunteered at center cafe and over the course of the week made $40 in tips and drugs but after subtracting the motorcycle i abandoned, im still on the negative for that one) and any camp that is actually profit motivated or walks away with a profit as a result of P n P should be shit upon.....heavily...

they obviously dont "get it"....any and all profiteers who plan to "make a buck" off of the burn by leveraging "packages" for pay should be Highly Discouraged if not Banned outright.

imho.

as stated above, our camp dues dont even come close to the costs, we only use red ink in the books.

it is a labor of love, not money, and anything out there that isnt, shouldnt be...

After considering people's opinions and reading everything everybody has to say, I've come to my own solid conclusion:

Fuck plug and play. No excuses. Nobody's entitled to this shit; it's a bunch of people camping in the desert, not a spectator experience. Picking up trash is not participation, especially when your camp leaves a red MOOP footprint. Our group received theme camp tickets because of our clean MOOP footprint since 2005, not because it's "participation" but because it's the right fucking thing to do.

My campers don't do this to enlighten rich people who can't pack their own shit. We're out there to serve participants and peers, not be gawked at like animals on a safari or plundered by people who expect us to entertain them on their trip up the Stairway to Heaven. I can't speak for all burners but I know I speak for many when I say that we get together and build this city for ourselves, not for somebody's elite clientele, regardless of their excuses.

The last time I was in Vegas, I couldn't participate my way into a pool or a VIP lounge but if I laid out the money, I was famous or my tits big enough I could do whatever I wanted. The differences between Black Rock City and Vegas should remain what they are. Maybe some people can't experience BRC in comfort or style but that's not the point: 99% of America can't experience a red carpet or a commercial space flight either, and we manage to cope just fine.

Big art = big fucking deal. The Statue of Liberty is big art. So are the Space Needle, the Eiffel Tower and Washington Monument. Big art exists everywhere. If the trade off for big art in BRC is tickets going to clueless spectators who never leave their camp and can't clean up their trash (LNT footprint), fuck it. I know a former Marine who is a virgin this year who got a ticket, and her experience this year will be more interesting to share than anything a PnP camp has to offer. She's going to be an awesome addition to Black Rock City, in a group with a great LNT record also, and there's absolutely no doubt that she and her host camp will contribute to the community.

Lastly, if you have to produce a video about how cool you are, you're not.

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

This phenomenon is horrific. This is the WORST kind of commodification. I can get behind the idea of a camp pooling funds for big infrastructure (heavy machinery rental, buying supplies for an evap pond, etc.) but a paid staff? That's unconscionable. It's worse than corporate sponsorshit. Look, I get that rich people are busy. I'm busy too. Hire pleebs to do more for you in the default world, and actually be a part of burning man. Radical inclusion doesn't mean you don't have to work for it- and paying someone to do the hard, uncomfortable work for you doesn't count.

Ok... I shelved my opinion until after the burn, and here's my updated opinion on plug and play camps after seeing one and speaking with a couple of campers.

Update: fuck plug and play camps. Spending $5500 to have an all-inclusive Burning Man getaway in which a series of identical trailers is arranged in a square around a trailer filled with dozens of marginally-decorated bikes does not make you a participant, it makes you a spectator, and that's not what Black Rock City is about. In fact, it's just the opposite.

Maybe Motel 6 or Trump will offer a better Burning Man experience for the elite and lazy in a perfect "Ask not what you can do flro Black Rock City" kind of way.

At Slutgarden, some entitled old-enough-to-know-better spectator woman asked a volunteer bartender if they were serving drinks and then demanded a marguerita. Another time, while the DJ and the camp leader were working out sound problems and the bar wasn't open yet because people were putting together a free boutique a group of girls said "Let's go. Obviously, these people aren't organized."

Plug and Play campers: you may have shelled out thousands of dollars to make somebody look cool while you enjoyed your gourmet food, private showers, air conditioning, rental bikes and provided alotment of blinkies, but, the participants of Black Rock City don't give one dusty shit about how wealthy or popular you are, and nobody in the city owes you a fucking thing.

As an experiment in radical inclusion, it was a nice idea but it failed. There was no art in the plug and play camp that I saw. It looked like a fucking RV dealership in the middle of Burning Man.

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace