"I was astounded that this .... religion - would teach that, because miracles in the New Testament represent the divine forgiveness of sin. Therefore, they are a necessary part of Christian reform and life correction"

Why would any thinking person be 'astounded' that a religion which is NOT Christianity would teach something NOT a Christian concept ????????

And will someone please give me a NT referent for the idea in blue above? It is not a doctrine of Christianity with which I was previously familiar: I'm always glad to learn more.

Thank you for acknowledging that indeed there were Bahais in the shah's circle as this is something often denied by many.

That was NOT what I indicated. You can count me as being among those Baha'is who also deny that "... there were Bahais [sic] in the shah's circle." There are many thousands of Americans working in departments of the federal government but a very, very select and miniscule few can be said to be in any given president's "circle". Please try not to paint scenarios with such a broad brush.

Now, as for the bodyguards, I have no specific knowledge of that fact. But an Iranian friend of mine (his now deceased father having been a professor of religion) is well acquainted with his country's history...

Again, if you have "no specific knowledge of that [as] fact," why do you continue spreading a false rumor? While I'm sure your Iranian friend IS probably familiar with that country's history, you might wish to consider the biases of those writing the history.

... He has previously indicated to me that the shah also had body guards from that cult.

That shouldn't be a surprise considering the fact the ayatollahs and recent regimes in Iran have been doing their best to suppress the Baha'i Faith in that country for years by all means possible. I think it was probably a good maneuver on their part. What better way to defame the Baha'is among the locals than to have the populace believe they were part and parcel of anything so intimately related to the shah, such as bodyguards and/or the dreaded secret police?

This is not a religion board, so I will make this brief and trust it will end here. I note you freely throw around the word "cult" re the Baha'i Faith. I believe Christianity was also considered a cult for its first few centuries, but I know of no other "cult" today having its scriptures printed in 700+ languages, being second only to Christianity in the number of locations where Baha'is reside around the globe, or having consultation status/offices in the U.N. All of this within a short 170 years of its inception.

As for Bahais, no I am NOT ignorant of that religion ... havng [sic] read several books by scholars of that religion. I have also had public debates with these scholars and defeated them ...

My only reaction to this pompous claim is absolute skepticism. Please cite the books, name the authors, and provide dates/places of such "public debates" in order to verify.

''Another criticism claims that the Bahá'ís, during the time of the Pahlavi dynasty, collaborated with the SAVAK, the Iranian secret police, and held positions of power in the government.[54] Even before the Iranian revolution, the Bahá'ís, viewed as the "other" in Iranian society, were held responsible by the rest of the Iranians for the abusive suppression by SAVAK and the Shah's unpopular policies.[55] After the revolution, the assertion that the Bahá'ís were agents of the Shah perhaps partly originates because Bahá'ís did not help the revolutionary groups, since one of the tenets of the Bahá'í Faith is to obey the government of one's country''

It should be noted that only the first sentence of the above is attributed to Chehabi, but the obfuscation lies in the fact that all of the above are "criticisms" and not evidentiary facts.

Again, I have no specific knowledge of this so I go by what others have written over the years. Perhaps you are one of those Bahais who denies it and this may explain why you do not agree.

Sadly, however, you choose NOT to go by what others have also written on the topic from the same Wikepedia article (emphases are mine):

"... the Bahá'í community in Iran was the victim of the Shah's regime, and that SAVAK was one of the main ways of persecuting the Bahá'ís... SAVAK also had links to Hojjatieh, a radical anti-Baha'i group ... the Shah gave Hojjatiehy free rein for their activities toward the Baha'is."[34]

"With regards to the accusation that Bahá'ís held many prominent positions in the government of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, there is no empirical study that endeavours to determine the truth of such an accusation. There were a number of individuals who were part of the government and who had Bahá'í backgrounds, but were not Bahá'ís themselves... While Asadullah Sanii, another Bahá'í, was appointed Minister of Defence, the Bahá'í community of Iran revoked his administrative rights — as he had accepted a political position and Bahá'ís are prohibited from involvement in partisan politics — the public, however, still continued to associate him with his previous religion."[54]

"... under the Pahlavi dynasty, the Baha'is were actually more a "political pawn" than a collaborator, and that Reza Shah's government toleration of Baha'is in the early 20th-century was more a sign of secular rule and an attempt to weaken clerical influence than a signal of favour for the Baha'is."[58]

"Chehabi notes that the allegations that half of the Shah's cabinet were Bahá'ís are fanciful and, given the persecution the Bahá'ís have suffered, irresponsible exaggerations."[54]

Please cite the books, name the authors, and provide dates/places of such "public debates" in order to verify.

These took place in a private home about 25 years ago. I remember reading a book written some time in the 1880s and another word "Gleanings" or something like that. Sorry I cannot remember for sure. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine with me.

In other words, your claim can't be verified but you have confirmed that they weren't "public debates." Twenty-five years ago I had high tea with someone very important from England but I, like you, also can't remember her name, the date, or where it took place... but I can assure all that it was one heckuva tea party!

One thing that does stand out for me is the claim that "miracles blunt the mind and dull the senses" - this was a teaching in one of the books. I was astounded that this cult - OK, this religion - would teach that because miracles in the New Testament represent the divine forgiveness of sin. Therefore, they are a necessary part of Christian reform and life correction. Bahais, as taught in that book (again, sorry, I cannot remember the name after almost 25 years) miracles are not supposed to happen and it alleged that a group was challenged to convert if they experienced a miracle of some kind. Afterwards, everyone in a group did so because one miracle was performed. No pictures or audio were presented in the book but that's what it said. Thus, no verification from them or from me.

As another Beliefnet moderator, I remind you - again - that this isn't a religion discussion board. If you wish to discuss the Baha'i stance on miracles, or anything else pertaining to the Baha'i Faith (including these allegations), please visit the Baha'i Discussion/Debate board. You obviously, however, have Baha'i teachings on this subject confused with another religion (cult?) you might have been investigating at the time, since Baha'is DO believe in the existence of miracles.

"I was astounded that this .... religion - would teach that, because miracles in the New Testament represent the divine forgiveness of sin. Therefore, they are a necessary part of Christian reform and life correction"

Why would any thinking person be 'astounded' that a religio n which is NOT Christianity would teach something NOT a Christian concept ????????

Hey young lady, watch your language.

We'll have none of that thinking stuff.

I HaShem wanted us to think He would have given us a brain.

Or at least a better brain than I have.

And will someone please give me a NT referent for the idea in blue above? It is not a doctrine of Christianity with which I was previously familiar: I'm always glad to learn more.

He read it in the NT somewhere at sometime in the past.

I have dabbled in xianity and read the NT because miracles in the New Testament represent the divine forgiveness of sin. and this is new to me.

Of course their are appox 4,000+ variations.

I mean look at the Christian(?)Mormon cult.

I mean Jesus Christ on toast, or a potato chip. If thinking people believe in that cult....I mean religion then anything is possible.

"I was astounded that this .... religion - would teach that, because miracles in the New Testament represent the divine forgiveness of sin. Therefore, they are a necessary part of Christian reform and life correction"

Why would any thinking person be 'astounded' that a religion which is NOT Christianity would teach something NOT a Christian concept ????????

And will someone please give me a NT referent for the idea in blue above? It is not a doctrine of Christianity with which I was previously familiar: I'm always glad to learn more.

"Unlike Mormonism and Islam, however, they claim that Baha'u'llah was not just a prophet but the actual Messiah and a fulfillment of the prophesied Second Coming. This belief alone reveals serious flaws in their interpretation of the Bible. The prophecies of the Bible that are yet to be fulfilled before Christ returns are simply reinterpreted or ignored to support their belief that the Messiah has already returned."

The literature I was given said this.

~ the idea in blue ~

When Jesus healed people he frequently said "thy sins are forgiven":

"Jesus' authority to heal the body testifies to his authority to forgive" - see,

In other words, your claim can't be verified but you have confirmed that they weren't " public debates ." Twenty-five years ago I had high tea with someone very important from England but I, like you, also can't remember her name, the date, or where it took place... but I can assure all that it was one heckuva tea party! As another Beliefnet moderator, I remind you - again - that this isn't a religion discussion board. If you wish to discuss the Baha'i stance on miracles, or anything else pertaining to the Baha'i Faith (including these allegations), please visit the Baha'i Discussion/Debate board. You obviously, however, have Baha'i teachings on this subject confused with another religion (cult?) you might have been investigating at the time, since Baha'is DO believe in the existence of miracles.

Oh, they were "public" insofar as it was with Bahai scholars in one of their homes. So long ago they are probably dead by now. Mind you I am the same age as RangerKen and these folks were older than I am. But you are free to believe as you wish. As for the merits of your religion, I'll leave that up to a religion board as you say.

"I was astounded that this .... religion - would teach that, because miracles in the New Testament represent the divine forgiveness of sin. Therefore, they are a necessary part of Christian reform and life correction"

Why would any thinking person be 'astounded' that a religion which is NOT Christianity would teach something NOT a Christian concept ????????

And will someone please give me a NT referent for the idea in blue above? It is not a doctrine of Christianity with which I was previously familiar: I'm always glad to learn more.

"Unlike Mormonism and Islam, however, they claim that Baha'u'llah was not just a prophet but the actual Messiah and a fulfillment of the prophesied Second Coming. This belief alone reveals serious flaws in their interpretation of the Bible. The prophecies of the Bible that are yet to be fulfilled before Christ returns are simply reinterpreted or ignored to support their belief that the Messiah has already returned."

The literature I was given said this.

~ the idea in blue ~

When Jesus healed people he frequently said "thy sins are forgiven":

"Jesus' authority to heal the body testifies to his authority to forgive" - see,

NATAS, the only connection I can think of is that the first link ricky gave us was a perfect example of the kind of hate speech found in works by the 'islamophobia industry' - only the object of *that* cyber blob o' feces was the Baha'i faith......which is interesting because the Baha'i tend to stay OUT of politics and do not proselytize.

Whatever "church" put that filth out on the Net needs to lose its tax-free status, and fast! It's not 'religion', it's a hate group.