First of all I believe whatever prophet may say or do is not in contrast to Quran. However, I presented a proof (rationally) standing on itself without using Quran.

I don't understand what your proof was supposed to prove. As far as I can see you proved only that the Prophet, by himself (i.e. without the Quran), could not be a reliable guide. And I agree with that. The Quran, and only the Quran, is infallible.

Secondly, if you agree we can certainly trust the accuracy of Quran, let me give you some verses of Quran commanding us to follow the prophet generally:

Quran [3:31]: Say, if you love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Quran [4:59]: "O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Quran [59:7]: "Whatever the Messenger gives, take it, and whatever he forbids abstain from it."

Tell me, myahya, if you were a soldier sworn to obey your commanding officer, would you interpret that as binding even after that officer's death? If his last order was "charge!", would you continue to charge for the rest of your life -- even after the war is over?

By the way, if you read all of Sura 59:7, you'll see that the third quote clearly refers to the division of plunder following a battle. Also note that the quote from Sura 4:59 commands us to obey Allah, and the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. Are all those charged with authority to be regarded as infallible?

Angela: I believe this is why
Muhammed (pbuh) was adamant that the Hadiths not be written down.

Haven’t you quoted it (Muhammed
(pbuh) was adamant that…) from a Hadith?!!

Yes, but I did so in the context that he didn't want it mixed with scripture. There is a difference between not wanting your words mixed with Allah's words and just not wanting people to write things down.

Imagine the problems if Muhammed had let the hadiths get mixed up with the Quran. Then there would be even more confusion.

The Quran can stand on its own against all sorts of attempts to pick it apart. Its only when you add in Hadiths that there are charges of hypocrisy and contradictions.

When in doubt, the Quran is perfect...right? But, God NO WHERE states that anything else is perfect.

Martha: might he ask himself if he was kind enough on some
occasions to some person, was he angry with his wives unnecessarily?

Note that a prophet is not like a robot fully controlled by
Allah. Prophets also had feelings and planned activities for daily lives like
all human beings. But the existence of human feeling and
activities are not signs of making mistakes or being wrong.

Regarding your question about his kindness or anger, I
believe that his kindness or anger and so on were for Allah’s sake, and only
for Allah’s sake. followings are two verses of Quran in which Allah talks
to the prophet.

Quran [21:107]: And We have not sent you but as a mercy to
the worlds

Quran [26:3]: Perhaps you will kill yourself with grief
because they do not believe

Can we find anyone else in the world whose mercy and
kindness to all has been ever described by Allah like this?

Angela: The Quran can stand on its own against all sorts of
attempts to pick it apart. Its only when you add in Hadiths that there
are charges of hypocrisy and contradictions.

Hadiths can be wrong. However, can we claim all of them are
wrong? There are scientific mythologies to judge about the degree of the
reliability of each hadith.

Ron: I don't understand what your proof was supposed to
prove. As far as I can see you proved only that the Prophet, by himself
(i.e. without the Quran), could not be a reliable guide.

I first proved the prophet by himself (i.e. without the
Quran), could not be a reliable guide, if he was fallible. By the
assumption of his fallibility it was concluded that Allah’s will for guiding
people leads to misleading them independent of whether people are faithful and
looking for guidance or not. But we know Allah is infallible and absolutely
perfect. Therefore, a contradictory conclusion is achieved by the assumption of
prophet fallibility.

Ron: Tell me, myahya, if you were a soldier sworn to obey your
commanding officer, would you interpret that as binding even after that
officer's death? If his last order was "charge!", would
you continue to charge for the rest of your life -- even after the war is over?

No. But what if the commander never dies? Allah is eternal.
He has commanded us to obey Him and His messenger and has not mentioned
any exceptions in Quran e.g. his death.

Ron: if you read all of Sura 59:7, you'll see that the third
quote clearly refers to the division of plunder following a battle.

I have read all the verse but as you see the sentence is
present tense which shows that it is a fact applicable in the example of
plunder division as well.

Ron: note that the quote from Sura 4:59 commands us to obey
Allah, and the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. Are
all those charged with authority to be regarded as infallible?

In my belief the answer is yes. However,
whatever the answer is, the obedience of Allah and the Messenger are clearly
stated, aren't they?

I first proved the prophet by himself (i.e. without the Quran), could not be a reliable guide, if he was fallible. By the assumption of his fallibility it was concluded that Allah’s will for guiding people leads to misleading them independent of whether people are faithful and looking for guidance or not. But we know Allah is infallible and absolutely perfect. Therefore, a contradictory conclusion is achieved by the assumption of prophet fallibility.

People are themselves prone to error and will mislead themselves even if the message (e.g. the Quran) is perfect. Therefore the fact that people are misled tells us nothing about the fallability of the message or the Messenger.

You don't seem to see much distinction between the role of Muhammad and the role of Allah. (One might be tempted to think you see them as partners.) To me, their roles are quite different. Allah instructs us through the Quran and gives us the timeless principles by which we can live good lives. Muhammad's role is firstly to convey the Quran, secondly to be a leader to his contemporaries and thirdly to be a role model for subsequent generations.

A role model is someone whom we can look to for inspiration and encouragement -- someone who has faced and overcome problems similar to our own (in degree of difficulty if not in specifics), and whose example gives us confidence that we can get through them too. But a role model is not an instructor, and a role model doesn't have to be perfect. His solutions to life's problems may not be our solutions, may not even be the best solutions; but the point is that he found solutions, and so can we. That's how I see it anyway.

Ron: Tell me, myahya, if you were a soldier sworn to obey your commanding officer, would you interpret that as binding even after that officer's death? If his last order was "charge!", would you continue to charge for the rest of your life -- even after the war is over?

No. But what if the commander never dies? Allah is eternal. He has commanded us to obey Him and His messenger and has not mentioned any exceptions in Quran e.g. his death.

The commanding officer in the analogy is Muhammad, not Allah, and Muhammad was dead long before you were born. He gave orders to his contemporaries, but he never spoke to you or even knew you, let alone gave you a command. The only way you can "obey" him is to obey the timeless message he brought via the Quran.

Ron: if you read all of Sura 59:7, you'll see that the third quote clearly refers to the division of plunder following a battle.

I have read all the verse but as you see the sentence is present tense which shows that it is a fact applicable in the example of plunder division as well.

Not "as well". Division of plunder only. Present tense might indicate that it is still applicable -- except that (as I mentioned) The Prophet (PBUH) is dead, so I doubt he will be dividing up plunder anymore.

Ron: note that the quote from Sura 4:59 commands us to obey Allah, and the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. Are all those charged with authority to be regarded as infallible?

In my belief the answer is yes. However, whatever the answer is, the obedience of Allah and the Messenger are clearly stated, aren't they?

So you really think that President Bush, who is charged with authority in the United States, is infallible? And yes, obedience is clearly stated, but I think it should be obvious that their authority ceases when they die. In Bush's case, I certainly hope it ceases long before that.

Angela: The Quran can stand on its own against all sorts of
attempts to pick it apart. Its only when you add in Hadiths that there
are charges of hypocrisy and contradictions.

Hadiths can be wrong. However, can we claim all of them are
wrong? There are scientific mythologies to judge about the degree of the
reliability of each hadith.

Nope, you can't say all of them are wrong. But, I think placing undue importance on them is dangerous. If the Quran says something, that is GOD's word correct? Then if a Hadith says something different, who am I going to believe. The incorruptible Quran or a Hadith that is generally believed to be true, but is in contradiction with the Quran?

I personally think this is why Islam has divided so often and gotten all messed up. People forget the Quran in favor of Hadiths. The science of verbal transmission is a very weak one.

As a faithful woman of God, I want to focus on the scriptures that God has preserved with his hand. Not the words of men who are long dust and what they related they saw. Remember hearsay is so unreliable that its banned in western courts for a reason.

Memories fail, people are imperfect and have their own reasons. If Muhammed had recorded his own words, I might think differently about Hadiths. But every single one is suspect because its hearsay.

This is the argument Muslims use against Jesus's words of the Bible, yet they use them to support Hadiths. Its the hypocrisy that reminds me why I am Mormon and not Muslim.

Angela, as it has been explained before, there are many ways of testing the authenticity of the Hadith. The most important are the two rules, namely, &nbsp ; 1. Darayat, 2. Rawayat.

Darayat means technicality of the Hadith substance. It examines the substance of the hadith, what it is saying etc. The merit of the contents.

Rawayat is the chain of narrations. Are the person narrating true and reliable persons? Did they exist in the right time frame with their ages and locality etc.?

The first test is the most important. It examines what the Hadith is saying. If the contents are malafide, i.e. against the teachings of the Quran then it is rejected. If the contents of the hadith are against any other well known authentic Hadith, even then that Hadith will be rejected i.e. because if we accept it then we have to reject the other well known authentic Hadith.... and so on.

It is also necessary to understand the Hadith properly and not to take a wrong meaning which may collide with other Hadith and verses of the Quran. Effort is made in that direction to reconcile any disagreing type of Hadith. If successful then well and good. If there is no success then that Hadith will be rejected.

These are the rules to examine the sayings of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. I have mentioned only a small portion of this all important subject. There are many other tests too, for example, it is considered, how many persons have related any Hadith. Is it just one person and one mans news or many persons reported a saying. If it is just one person report then that Hadith may not be of higher standard, and so on...

Yes, but I have seen Hadith which directly contradict the Quran be declared valid/strong.

For example,

24:2
The woman and the man
Guilty of fornication
Flog each of them
With a hundred stripes
And let a party of believers
Witness their punishment

Yet, multiple hadiths that are "valid" call for the stoning of the adulterers. I think this is a perfect example of people placing too much emphasis on the Hadith when the Quran is EXPLICITLY clear what the punishment for adultery is.

It doesn't matter that the Prophet judged two Jews based on their own laws, Muslim scholars have applied this judgment to all adulterers because of several hadith. Whereas, there is a Hadith where Ali is asked if the Prophet used stoning before or after Surah Nur was revealed and he said, I don't know.

You can argue it all you want. The Quran is without question on this punishment. Its black and white. No hadith should ever come over the Quran. It simply takes away from the perfection of the Quran's revelation.

Now, I think there are some great hadiths that should be examples of behaviour. The prophet's manner towards children, towards the poor, etc. But, they are not LAW as the Quran is. They are just examples and frankly suspect.

Rawayat is another fancy name for the Telephone Game. Darayat is flat out ignored 90% of the time.

What you have written is quite right and I hope that not all Muslims agree to stoning the adulterer unless there may be a case of rape or murder after rape etc. In all other cases, such as willing illegal intercourse, the punishment should be 100 stripes as mentioned in 24:2.

It is interesting. The present day scholars say that the adulterer mentioned in 24:2 is unmarried. That is why the punishment is 100 lashes. For the married one, it is stoning. They say that the adulterer in 24:2 is unmarried person. That they say is the secret meaning. But the verse 1 in chapter 24, from the very beginning is telling that there is nothing secret in that chapter. It is all very clear manifest orders.

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