No jackshaft electric loco? What about the PRR DD1 at RRMPA? Weren't there TWO DD1s in existence as late as the 1960s?

Ron Goldfeder

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:08 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pmPosts: 564Location: St. Louis, MO

As to why there is an Italian electric locomotive at the Museum of Transportation near St. Louis please consider this. One of the types of electric locomotive drives is the jackshaft type, used on PRR DD1 locos, but also on others on the N&W and VGN. There were 130 such locomotives, eight designs (with some duplication), used by four American railroads. In addition there were three experimental locos.

During the initial development of railroad electrical propulsion a number of drive systems were devised to couple the output of the traction motors to the wheels. One of the earliest methods was the jackshaft or rod drive. This used driving rods much like those on a steam locomotive. This system was employed because the first traction motors were too large and heavy to mount directly geared to the axles as is the case today. The jackshaft was usually used to turn several axles with one motor, and allowed the full width of the body to be used for a large motor mounted above the frames. Later examples had their motors, which were still too large to mount directly geared to the axles, in the frames. They were more widely used in Europe. All but one of the American ones had been scrapped when the museum looked for an example, and that one is now in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. In 1968 we received an example of a rod-driven electric freight engine from the Italian State Railroad. This was a class E550 engine built in 1910 by Societa Italiana Westinghouse SA, the Italian subsidiary of the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company of Pittsburgh, PA. Two motors using 3,000 volt AC, three-phase power, drive all five of its axles. This Italian-American exhibit allows visitors to see an actual locomotive that used this method of electric power transmission that played a role in North America even though a domestic example is not available. Only one other E550 locomotive survives, in the Leonardo da Vinci Museum of Technology in Milan, Italy.

MOT’s Italian electric locomotive is an example of one with jackshaft drive. It is also an expression of the international nature of the industry. It was built by Westinghouse, with Kálmán Kandó, a Hungarian engineer from Ganz & Company in Budapest, in Austria –Hungary, as the principal electrical designer. Experienced electrical engineers in those early days came from Belgium (Van DePoele), Germany (Siemens), England (Brush, Houston, and others), parts of Austria-Hungary (Tesla in Serbia and Kandó in Hungary), and the USA (Sprague, Edison, Field, Westinghouse, and Daft) . Although it was used in Italy it can be called American and Hungarian as easily as Italian. The E550 was the first mass-produced electric locomotive in the world. A fleet of 186 of these (compared to 139 GG1 locos) was used in the one of the most successful railway electrifications in Italy, starting in 1908. The last was built in 1921 and they were retired in 1965. It also used three phase power, which is why it has the unusual current collectors on the roof.

The Panama Canal ship towing “Mule” in the MOT collection used three phase power. The Panama Canal Zone was considered US territory. It was also used by the Great Northern Railway for their first Cascade Tunnel electrification. The original, six miles long, Great Northern Cascade Tunnel electrification was a three-phase AC installation at 6600 V, 25 Hz, completed on July 9, 1909 and used for nearly 19 years. The second Cascade Tunnel project, which started in 1926, caused the replacement of the three-phase system with an 11,000 volt, 25 Hz, single phase AC system. This was energized on March 5, 1927, replacing the four three-phase locomotives seen below. The longer New Cascade Tunnel itself, built at a lower elevation and much longer electrified zone, was opened on January 12, 1929.

This exhibit allows visitors to see an actual locomotive that used this method of electric power transmission which played a role in North America even though a domestic example is not available.

I understand the reason for inclusion of the Italian loco in the collection, but I could have sworn it was on the de-accessions list that was circulated what, six or seven years ago. Is it still at the museum?

_________________Dennis Storzek

Ron Goldfeder

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:03 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pmPosts: 564Location: St. Louis, MO

It is still there. There has been some talk about an Italian Museum trying to get it returned. When it was donated in 1968 it was shipped from Italy to New Orleans for free and then on a flatcar to St. Louis, also for free. Getting it returned might happen, but might also be too costly. Most of those who are bothered by its presence usually can't get past the word Italian to look for any further significance, and also don't ask for an explanation. It has been an ongoing subject of uninformed humor for a long time.

_________________Ron GoldfederSt. Louis

70000

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:25 am

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 amPosts: 307Location: Ipswich, UK

Ron Goldfeder wrote:

It is still there. There has been some talk about an Italian Museum trying to get it returned. When it was donated in 1968 it was shipped from Italy to New Orleans for free and then on a flatcar to St. Louis, also for free. Getting it returned might happen, but might also be too costly. Most of those who are bothered by its presence usually can't get past the word Italian to look for any further significance, and also don't ask for an explanation. It has been an ongoing subject of uninformed humor for a long time.

Hi My question is this, what are some of the reasons WHY, the railroad, either CSX or NS would refuse to move the GG-1s?

LVRR2095

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:07 pm

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 12:20 pmPosts: 152

Pat Fahey wrote:

Hi My question is this, what are some of the reasons WHY, the railroad, either CSX or NS would refuse to move the GG-1s?

For one....inoperative brakes. Or lack of alignment control couplers, wheels that have sharp flanges, leaking transformer coolant and I'm sure a host of other things. And those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure an inspector could come up with a novel length volume of violations. Off hand I would think the lack of alignment control couplers would be the biggie.

Keith

Last edited by LVRR2095 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Glueck

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:08 pm

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 amPosts: 4050Location: Maine

It doesn't take close inspection of these two GG1's to see the welds in the truck frames, too. But I think there are ways of dealing with moving these old beasts. Getting them to a place that is better than where they are now would be first consideration. They could still serve as static museum exhibits if they were cleaned out, received the body work they require, were permanently sealed, and painted. A lot of work, and generally, that mean a lot of money.

As much as I'd like to see 4876 restored, these would be a whole heck of a lot less expensive.

I have had it reiterated to me repeatedly that the ONLY way that a GG1 is going to be travelling anywhere on the major railroads on its own wheels is by direct orders/intervention from the highest levels of railroad management.

That's precisely what it took to get 4935 down the the Washington Union Terminal centennial bash a short while ago--the top "buck stops here" special movements engineering specialist on Amtrak was explicitly told "make it happen."

The Claytors, Wick Moorman, Hays Watkins, etc. no longer run things in the East. You think CSX's current top man is going to be a help?

not to hijack this series; but the Brigham open pit mine was mentioned up above. We have two of their 750 volt locos in Car Barn Three at the Western Railway Museum. They are not in great condition; but I was asked about one on my tour yesterday. Any electric locomotive in the Western US is a rare bird.

However there are as mentioned, a lot of GG-1s around and about; even Texas and three in Strasburg and Harrisburg, PA.

From the pictures, those locomotives are past all hope. But I can be proved wrong!

Ted Miles, Western Railway Museum

Charlie

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:26 pm

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 amPosts: 506Location: Winters, TX

I suppose one issue would be in getting clear title to them. The Henry Ford museum still owns one of them and I don't know if they've completely given up the idea of moving it to their museum. And the other is apparently owned by the group in Florida who may or may not still be around.

The one thing going for them is that they have been stripped out and vandalized to the point where there is no immediate need to protect them from harm.

train guy

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:34 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:20 pmPosts: 190

You'd have to find the key to that padlock before you could move them....

LV 601

Post subject: Re: Abandoned GG1's in Coopersville, New York

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:15 am

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:52 pmPosts: 33Location: Owego, NY

I had a friend tell me last night that he went fishing in Cooperstown Junction this spring and the GG1's were gone but I'm thinking he may have been looking for them where they use to be before they were moved in 2014. Could someone please tell me exactly where they are? It appears to me on Google Earth that they are just south of Cooperstown Junction. Thought it would be a nice drive to Brooks BBQ in Oneonta for lunch then drive north on Rt 7 and look for them just before Cooperstown Junction. Would love to get a few pictures of them in the fall.

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