00:00:02 Hexstream: that doesn't make sense, just import the symbols before you load all other code
00:00:04 It's more for combining DSLs which want to "incidentally" use symbols with very desirable names without conflicts.
00:00:53 Hexstream: which is usually done when you do this from defpackage, you load the defpackage, it uses or imports the symbols you use, and then all other code is loaded, no conflicts
00:01:21 For instance, many macros could use DESTRUCTURING to introduce destructuring, without conflicting with eachother, and without using the much longer DESTRUCTURING-BIND (I don't mind that name as a top-level name but as part of embedded syntaxes it's pretty long...)
00:01:43 Hexstream: you don't make your variable names unique, don't you?
00:01:58 stassats: Uh, what?
00:02:14 I just bitched about reader macros in another channel. Maybe I can here too.
00:02:25 Hexstream: then i don't understand what problem you were talking about with LOOP
00:02:52 can you explain this sentence "Well, for instance it's very impractical to export a WHILE or UNTIL or REPEAT looping macro..."
00:03:11 ?
00:03:33 Ok, so exporting it might not be impractical, but anyone who tries to :use your package will curse at you. Or will think about doing it.
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00:03:52 Hexstream: how, exactly?
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00:04:25 can you describe what actual problems will anyone have when :using such package?
00:04:43 symbol conflicts...
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00:05:14 Hexstream: with what?
00:05:16 Anyway, you're fixating on the wrong thing, as I said LOOP keywords is not the primary use-case.
00:05:20 with what symbols? from other packages which export them too?
00:05:41 Mostly with already-interned symbols, not necessarily exported ones.
00:06:00 Let's say I use LOOP from within package FOO... (not something I'd do, but anyway)
00:06:05 Hexstream: hence my question, do you make your variables unique?
00:06:15 And then "Oh, let's bring in this cool dependency which exports WHILE!"
00:06:25 And then "fuck"...
00:06:43 stassats: No.
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00:07:15 Hexstream: then do you say "fuck" when something happens to export a symbol with the same name as one of your variables?
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00:07:48 stassats: Yes, but I know it's just bad luck and not an entrenched systemic problem.
00:08:35 you are not making sense
00:09:27 if you delete your package, or restart your lisp, and reload your program, it won't have any symbol conflicts
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00:10:04 I know that.
00:10:38 so? why do you say that LOOP is "a systemic problem"? because you hate it?
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00:11:20 I don't like deleting my package, nor restart my lisp, nor do petty symbol management tasks by hand. I do it when I have to, but if I can find a way to solve this, even impartially, I'd like it.
00:11:30 I said that LOOP *keywords* were a systemic problem.
00:11:39 LOOP is a problem, but not a systemic one.
00:12:11 but it's not
00:12:12 LOOP keywords unnecessarily bypass the package system.
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00:12:30 variable names do too, so?
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00:13:03 stassats: Now you are most definitely not making any sense.
00:13:08 Hexstream: they do so exactly in order to avoid the problem you descirbe with multiple packages exporting the same common name.
00:13:17 Variables are compared by identity, not STRING=.
00:13:56 pkhuong: What's wrong about (loop :for i :below 10 :collect (list i i))?
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00:14:23 How might I inspect a signalled condition in sldb?
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00:14:35 C I think.
00:14:42 Try C-h m
00:14:45 Hexstream: if you have a variable named REPEAT, and use a package with REPEAT exported after the code which uses the said variable was already compiled, you'll get a symbol conflict
00:14:51 (loop #:for i #:below 10 #:collect (list i i))
00:14:54 Hexstream: I don't know? You say it looks like shit.
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00:15:10 pkhuong: I don't.
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00:15:36 LOOP keywords are actually a lot like actual keyword arguments, which I don't mind at all being actual keywords.
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00:16:01 It's more for things like (map 'alist) where (map :alist) doesn't look quite as well-integrated as (map 'list).
00:16:18 I don't see the difference... And I don't much care either.
00:16:29 Yeah, well that's what I expected.
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00:18:41 Hexstream: if you prefer 'alist, why don't you use the LOOP approach? because, as we have seen, it doesn't cause any problems
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00:20:08 It might "not cause any problems" for LOOP, but that's because LOOP is not extensible, and let's ignore the implementation-specific extensions that almost nobody actually uses...
00:20:30 ok, what problems will it cause for you?
00:21:00 If I have a "universal DEFINE" and there are 2 libraries that happen to have a class named VALIDATOR, that are not attached to the same symbol, I most definitely don't want those definitions to stomp on eachother.
00:21:26 When one does (define foo:validator) and (define bar:validator)
00:21:32 I don't understand how ikeywords would solve the issue then.
00:21:37 (Well, 2 different people.)
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00:22:06 [i]keyword:validator is still only one symbol.
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00:23:22 Well, the library that introduces a certain new type of definitions would have the responsibility of providing the definitions for symbols that would be expected to be used as ikeywords such as ALIST, PLIST, etc if applicable.
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00:25:10 Uh, yeah, if the 2 libraries want to define separate VALIDATOR classes they would most definitely not make that an IKEYWORD. In fact it's impossible to have global function, macro, etc. definitions directly on an IKEYWORD, since it's a global resource. Two libraries that provided global definitions would stomp on eachother if they did that...
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00:26:26 so, how one decides which is global and which is not?
00:26:54 Both libraries could have (define (validator function)) and (define (validator macro)), where VALIDATOR is a distinct symbol for each and FUNCTION is from CL for each and MACRO is an IKEYWORD for each.
00:27:09 stassats: Neither of them is global.
00:27:26 Hexstream: but some things are global, which are?
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00:27:44 stassats: I don't follow.
00:28:09 Hexstream: the ikeyword package, what goes there, and what doesn't?
00:28:17 The VALIDATOR from each package would be a "namespacing" mechanism in this case.
00:29:17 stassats: If you need a global macro or function or SETF expander or whatnot on a symbol, then that can't be an IKEYWORD.
00:30:14 But if you just need the symbol for identity and will use some other contextual information to give it meaning, and you want to export that symbol yet not conflict will all other library authors that are in the same situation as you, then you'd make it an IKEYWORD.
00:30:32 Is anyone out there able to get at the darcs repo for ITERATE? I have tried repeatedly according to the instructions, but no dice.
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00:31:38 An interesting IKEYWORD would be ESCAPE. That could be used in many different contexts in many different DSL's.
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00:32:51 https://github.com/Hexstream/cl-conceptual-types/blob/master/package.lisp has a list of many potentially interesting IKEYWORDs, but of course I was stupid for not realizing right away that explicit enumeration as part of the library was not the way to go o_o.
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00:35:21 if you want two kinds of symbols, then i don't see the problem with keywords, because i'm not going to go lengths such as using ikeyword just to be able to put 'alist or alist instead of :alist
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00:36:57 Well, in many situations both :alist and ikeyword:alist could be used, so you could use say (map :alist) while I'd use (map 'alist).
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00:39:48 Oh, btw as a user of a library that exports ikeywords you wouldn't use ikeyword directly. You'd just use whatever symbols are exported from the package directly, or you'd incidentally get the required IKEYWORDs from somewhere else... For instance if you :use'd a "universal mapping" library that would be likely to make definitions for the ALIST, PLIST, etc. IKEYWORDs, reexport these symbols, [...]
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00:40:46 And then as part of :use'ing this package (assuming you did so), you'd have those IKEYWORDs for other packages, so for those maybe you could just import whatever main symbol, as you know you already have most of the IKEYWORDs you need...
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00:42:16 So, I think I talked about this enough for today. I'm pretty sure it works well in theory, and am looking forward to how well it works in practice.
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01:16:08 sellout: you around?
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01:17:02 Ralith: Yup.
01:17:14 llvm:params appears to be broken on 2.9
01:19:20 appears to be giving me garbage
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01:21:48 Ralith: Hrmm, yeah, that looks broken. Can you open an issue (ideally with a simple test).
01:22:20 you reproduce?
01:22:31 am trying to track down the actual issuewill open an issue if I can't open a pull request.
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01:26:36 Ralith: no, I just looked at the code I can't see how with-pointer-to-list could work.
01:26:46 hm?
01:26:49 it seemed obvious to me
01:26:50 *Ralith* reviews
01:27:10 Ralith: It's been a while since I looked at the code
01:27:38 but how does the call to convert-from-foreign there know the length?
01:27:51 that's what I'm trying to find out now
01:27:58 I swear this used to work o.O
01:29:13 I think it expects a null-terminated array.
01:29:19 I bet LLVM used to return one
01:29:34 Yeah, that's the only thing that could have worked.
01:29:42 Damn you, LLVM! No more changing things!
01:29:46 oh, there's an easy fix
01:31:15 got it
01:31:24 hm
01:31:31 Ralith: `(carray ,`,type ,length)?
01:31:34 one of these days I need to work out how to do quicklisp local projects
01:31:36 sellout: ,, actually
01:31:40 Oh, rigth.
01:31:50 Hooray for nested quoting :)
01:31:59 ^^
01:32:24 stassats: I finally found some data to rerun the parallel work load I was talking about earlier...
01:32:37 want to apply it yourself, or shall I sork out how to make this a pull request
01:33:09 Ralith: If you want the credit, do a pull, but if it's too much hassle, I can do it quickly.
01:33:19 stassats: The nature of the work means the CPU is very under utilised if ran sequentially, around 3-5%
01:33:47 stassats: With 10 worker threads it can be around 20%
01:34:09 where's the bottle neck?
01:34:12 Ralith: I'm surprised that since I wrote carray to behave correctly, that I didn't use it the more robust way in the first place.
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01:34:34 probably got 90% there and got distracted, if you're anything like me
01:35:51 stassats: I'm not rightly sure to be perfectly honest, I did run some prof when I was initially developing it but could come to a worthwhile conclusion
01:35:57 I should dig into it
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01:37:26 do you lots of i/o?
01:37:28 the task is to take 200 EPIC (exchange instrument symbols) and then go to yahoo and grab a years worth of historical data in CSV format, parse this into sexp and process the data, compiling a list at the end,
01:37:28 do
01:37:34 stassats: yep
01:38:26 Guthur: it seems the bottleneck here is the developer's conscience. How much are we ready to hammer Yahoo? (:
01:39:05 pkhuong: I heard they block your IP if you hammer them too hard
01:39:21 block for a period of time
01:39:22 I would certainly expect as much.
01:39:39 it's only 200 requests
01:39:41 heeh
01:40:27 if your benchmark includes yahoo requests, then it doesn't make much sense
01:40:45 stassats: why not? It's a real workload.
01:41:35 pkhuong: it is, but it's hard to make a comparison
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01:42:17 well one would have to run them a number of times, and take into account a reasonable margin of error
01:42:39 can you compare the same thing but with files being located locally?
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01:42:54 I didn't set out to proof anything though, I just found that sequentially my performance was poor
01:43:07 stassats: sure
01:43:10 not tonight though
01:43:46 do you do yahoo requests in parallel?
01:43:56 stassats: yep
01:44:24 it's all parallel except the reading of the EPIC file and the composition at the end
01:45:18 i'd use two threads, one for making requests to yahoo, another for processing the returned data
01:45:35 I'd use asynch io.
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01:46:57 and sb-concurrency:mailbox for communication between those threads
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01:47:21 we use the tools we know, hehe
01:48:36 sellout: request open
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01:49:19 Guthur: except that i expect yours to behave worse than either of proposed alternatives
01:50:11 Ralith: Merged, thanks.
01:50:23 ^^
01:50:49 when you make 10 parallel requests you over-saturate your bandwidth and have to wait while all 10 (in theory) request are completed before you can process either of them
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01:51:32 stassats: I didn't really put too much thought into the figure
01:52:01 I could have also tried the pattern you mentioned one thread for http another for processing
01:52:01 stassats: it's modem-bound. And it's a couple hundred requests.
01:52:59 this is confusing
01:53:14 stassats: the workers HTTP request all run independently, why would they have to wait
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01:53:28 sure at the end possibly if one is slow
01:53:30 Guthur: do they use the same network connection?
01:53:46 I'm getting an "invalid number of arguments: 4" error from an apply form that expands to, and appears in the backtrace as, ((LAMBDA (BUILDER A B)) #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080BC1B8) #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080BBEF0) #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080BB368))
01:53:50 which is clearly three params
01:54:05 neither of them will be able to use the full bandwidth
01:54:09 stassats: yeah, I would like to know the network saturation
01:54:20 but have nothing at hand to measure it
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01:55:08 you can time downloading just the data sequentially and in parallel
01:55:45 without doing any computations
01:56:12 Ralith: extra arguments don't show up
01:56:21 oh.
01:56:47 ...hm, something's still wrong here, then
01:58:43 sellout: incoming secondary fix
01:59:10 Ralith: Same bug, or a separate bug?
01:59:28 different but very closely related bug
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02:00:52 request up
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02:01:50 gaaah
02:02:20 why must I always have crashes in the areas where SBCL can't backtrace
02:05:20 Ralith: Merged again thanks for fixing all my bugs :)
02:06:18 it's the least I can do; this binding's saving me a great deal of pain and tedium
02:06:20 pkhuong: do you plan on having on keeping both napa-fft and napa-fft2?
02:06:28 s/on having//
02:07:19 I think yahoo may have had enough of me hammering them
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02:07:59 tomorrow I might look into hooking something more in a more localised environment
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02:11:02 stassats: no. fft2 is more of a spike right now, but the end goal is to make it useful, and to handle multidimensional DFTs as well.
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02:13:25 stassats: but it's not even remotely related to my phd topic... time will be scarce again starting ~next week.
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02:14:54 the workers came back after 260 seconds
02:15:17 460 for the single thread and it hadn't finished
02:15:40 i'm too tired to continue
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02:16:32 it's possible that one of the requests is slow and then holds up all the others
02:16:45 in the sequential execution
02:17:34 actually that might be it, there was a number of the request which do not come back with a 200 status
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02:18:32 299 non 200 status request in the multi threaded version
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03:02:45 If anyone cares I now have a better understanding of what the hell an IKEYWORD really is... http://paste.lisp.org/display/126870#1
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05:00:48 So what's the popular solution for a cross-platform GUI application?
05:01:01 web-interface
05:01:46 heh! What about native applications?
05:02:02 none is popular
05:02:15 commonqt seems to get a fair amount of respect
05:02:22 pnathan, try looking at clojure.. it runs in the clr and jvm
05:02:27 commonqt is popular in my home
05:02:39 even though its not exactly lisp
05:02:43 hypercube32: that's a bad advice
05:02:47 lol
05:02:49 ;)
05:03:05 clojure is a fine lisp, it's just not the lisp *I* prefer.
05:03:10 so was html but people use it :P
05:03:18 shen is a nice lisp
05:03:41 but you're right, a clojure application would be cross-platform, if I could whack the java UI libs into behaving. :)
05:03:43 although it looks ugly
05:03:49 and i hate to say it but if i had to use qt based stuff or clojure for java stuff id probably go with clojure :/
05:04:00 ya
05:04:17 I was *really* inquiring about Common Lisp though.
05:04:20 that and you can easily put it into a tomcat web app or web applet without much trouble
05:04:26 sorry
05:04:27 hypercube32: this is irrelevant,
05:08:02 I think the java UI libs are commonly thought to be among the worst.
05:08:04 stassats: you've had good experience with commonqt?
05:08:12 pnathan: yes
05:08:34 Which platform(s)?
05:08:38 Qt, on the other hand, is commonly thought to be fairly solid
05:08:44 although its tight association with C++ is a shame.
05:08:49 pnathan: linux
05:08:51 and it's also a bit heavier than I personally like
05:09:33 what are you, storing it on diskettes?
05:09:35 even gtk is quite heavier than it used to be, though
05:09:53 stassats: not heavy in terms of filesize
05:09:58 but rather in terms of how it likes to be used
05:10:02 fltk2 might be some alternative perhaps, if you can stand it, and it's also C++
05:10:24 Qt and GTK both seem to be built on the assumption that they will be the core of your app
05:10:35 Ralith: well, making UI isn't exactly easy
05:10:43 ?
05:10:45 How about using ABCL for a cross-platform user interface for Common Lisp?
05:10:49 I've seen Qt used for server-side non-GUI applications *cough*
05:10:55 Ralith: ltk breaks free from that assumption a bit, which is nice
05:10:55 indeed.
05:11:10 it and other libs besides, I believe
05:11:12 Other than that, I prefer web-based user interfaces. Much easier to make, and works well with CL
05:11:20 Ralith: it's complex because that's what the task requires
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05:12:02 and i don't see the assumption that it has to be the core when using it with Lisp
05:12:05 stassats: I don't think the task requires it to be the core of my application.
05:12:24 at least, not the task I generally want them for.
05:12:53 I haven't found them to be terribly complex to use, API-wise.
05:12:57 and it doesn't require that
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05:13:28 that's good
05:13:36 but a lot of Qt stuff seems to be built around that idea
05:14:09 i don't know what it seems, i just tell you how i've been using it
05:14:20 it's good to know that that works well.
05:15:25 @Phoodus: I've used LTK a bit, but the dependency on wish/tk was "eh", and it didn't seem to be carefully maintained
05:15:59 dependency? what do you expect not to have a dependency?
05:16:24 clx?
05:16:28 heh
05:16:33 well it still needs bsd sockets
05:16:37 Having to boot Wish and send it commands was kind of annoying.
05:16:45 phadthai: does window include an X server nowadays?
05:16:53 windows
05:17:22 stassats: No, butcygwin has a free one that always seems to work fine.
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05:17:28 of course not, but one could install cygwin or mingw xorg, which is probably smaller than firefox
05:17:36 albeit, unaccelerated.
05:17:54 easye: that's still a dependency, isn't it?
05:18:19 But with cygwin you can always do a non-Administrator install to the point that you can display a remote Emacs with a local server.
05:18:23 At work some people use XMing and appear to be generally happy with it: http://straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/
05:18:59 stassats: Ah. Didn't read the previous context. Yes, dependency, but one that could be packaged up for automatic installation.
05:19:23 pnathan: you won't be happy if you had to use clx
05:19:49 I also mentioned it with a grain of salt, as you'd have to create your widget kit around it
05:20:11