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It's interesting that a 920 rated intermediate player claims to be able to shoot 3 or 4 down on the back like it's child's play (show me), but whines about one of the best designed holes on the course just because it doesn't fit his eye.

Jack, I enjoy the 6-6-6 design of Cliff. Even #13 has a place in the scheme of things. If it goes away, I look forward to seeing what to create elsewhere.

Intermediate? INTERMEDIATE?!?! I took 12th in Advanced at the Wide Open! /s

Don't remember saying I shoot -4, just that it's there (if I don't %$#@ up). I'll always play a round at Cliff with you if you want. Just hit me up!

hole 10 and 16 are both lefty roller holes once the grass starts drying out. the problem is they play in opposite winds. tailwind makes you put the roller down earlier. so usually only one of the two is playing as a roller hole.

the loss of a few key trees has made the back side a repeat of shots. the three pines used to protect the right side of 13. it made the righties start their drive on an anhyzer to get to a shorter upshot. hyzer drive left 350+ upshot. anhyzer increased the risk of ob with south wind. now, you can start your drive on nearly any angle you choose.

hole 14 had the one huge tree that made that hole. it was a hyzer between two flip shot holes. again, now you can start your disc on any angle you choose.

hole 15 is a skilled two in the long position and favors the lefties. the short location was put in for lions den and leagues early/late in the year where daylight is a concern. is stays short too much but the short location breaks up some of the monotony caused by 14s change.

hole 16 is designed like a ball golf hole. it pinches down with double ob where most players land their drive. the headwind provides the major challenge here. is can be a little boring without it. this hole can screw up your round if you take it for granted.

hole 17 needs it tree as well though it is still a tough hole without the tree. again like fairway bunkers in ball golf, the fairway pinches with double ob where some players land their drive. wind provides more teeth but this is a tough hole either way.

hole 18 is not a good hole. the drive on this hole is usually not meaningful. 500+ throwers can have a chance at 2 by bringing the ob in play. there used to be a lower branch to contend with on the upshot to the short, but its still usually a star par for advanced/pros. the long location makes you use your head a little more, but can bring the cars into play.

swope has had the same problems, and waterworks to some extent. can u imagine losing some of the key trees that make holes at waterworks? either the left or right tree on 1,7,8,10? remember 11 when it had the lower ceiling? it was a much better hole. how will hole 13 or 16 be if they loose their one tree?

instead of calling any hole the worst hole ever, how about bringing some extra water or mulch for the smaller trees at your favorite course? be thankful for some of the trees we still have and . . . play the Tree Love Classic on September 15th where we will be joining together to raise the awareness of this exact issue. i know, shameless plug

Drew, I guess I never saw the course when it was fresh since I only recently started playing. It sounds like it would play a lot better with those trees in place on some of the open holes so you can't air it out there so easily. Risk/reward is what makes this game so addicting.