The tank losses for the Germans build pretty good since the last patches of 1.04. A lot of this is based on how much they move and their reliability (or lack there of). This is going to be the new norm for the panzers, so I think a German player must be more careful in moving his panzer divisions around or suffer needless tank losses. This is closer to the historical campaign (German tank casualties just from moving everything around). I just finished Guderian's book and he mentions his lead panzer division that closed the Kiev pocket had about 20 tanks left.

I discovered this (tank casualties) the hard way and some of the counter measures I tried to implement were to assign support units to the motorized units and also to the panzer divisions to keep their strength up. The motorized divisions are not as strong as a full strength panzer division, but that is the point; panzer divisions are not going to be full strength in many cases.

It sounds like you are not really going to push for Leningrad and just looking at things, I sort of agree with you. With that said, you want to keep the pressure up to a point to pin as many troops as you can in this area along with building up a fortified line for winter. I would consider pulling PG4 out and perhaps threaten a hook south of Lake Ilmen, but this thrust could also help flank the Valdi Hills, which would help with a thrust on Moscow. This may cause another diversion of troops (either from the Leningrad front in which case you get a chance to push forward some more if you want or for other theaters, helping you elsewhere). The other thing I would consider is looking to withdraw your elite (86+ moral) infantry out of AGN. They are valuble in how fast they can advance and Leningrad is pretty much a grind fest with a static front. No need to keep them tied up there and grind them down. He looks a bit weak south of Lake Ilmen.

While you mention Stalino specifically for industry, there is a lot of industry in other cities there in the Don Bas, so I would certainly look to keep the pressure up and bag what you can. At this point, you don't have a lot of choice and I agree with you that B-G has likely come up with a terrific evacuation plan that other Russians really need to take a hard look at.

I think I am back to screening off the Crimea rather than taking it, although kicking him out of the bottle necks could be helpful.

As far as the airwar goes, I think it is pretty broken. The Germans simply do not intercept like they should and the Russians are able to do far more damage than they should be able to do. Perhaps spread the fighters out to more airbases and hope that improves the coverage. I think it is more important that a given air raid be intercepted with something rather than trying to intercept with a lot.

The Air War mystifies me, and I was about to ask, because I think my Luftwaffe is doing poorly. I wonder if it's something I am doing.

Air losses so far are 7,304 Soviet, and 1,437 Axis. Throw out the first turn, though, and it's about 1.5 to 1 most turns. This is despite the fact that I have displaced airbases at least a dozen times. In straight-up A2A, it's about even; despite the fact the Reds are using alot of old planes still.

Not sure if there is a change, or I'm not doing something effectively, but I may need some help. The only thing I am doing a little differently: I have turned Ground Support OFF for many turns to keep bombers for Supply Drops, and I have used alot of Bombers for Supply drops. Even with heavy escorts, we usually take more losses on Soviet intercepts.

Well. I have researched this thing a bit by myself. If there is a human player on soviet side, its completely overkill without any houserules. Germans can't do anything but lose the air war, and lost it fast. Soviet side can use those old planemodels for buffer duty and add some modern fighters and bombers in the mix and bomb german airfields. 10 bombing runs on a single field and there are no planes left.

I think you are doing quite well with the Luftwaffe and being lucky if your Soviet opponent isin't exploiting his airforce. Do you guys have any houserules? If you are going to displace airbases. Hit few airbombings in it first, since every damaged planes will be gone while replaced.

Also cute trick is to displace soviet airbase HQ out of range. Then do MASSIVE bombings on every airfields. Thats the only way to do something since those OP AA:s can't help. Then displace em all!

Those soviet biplanes are way too effective while used in numbers. They are easy way to get some good exp for crews. Note that Soviets can do more AA guns and fill airfields with a strong AA regiments like no tomorrow. After such thing, its a suicide to do airbombings. Germans can't do the same... German AA guns should be twice as effective than Soviet ones.

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"An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?"

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

KLYDON: Good feedback RE: Tanks. I am not the only one. It makes historical sense to me that simply driving into Russia will deplete Panzer formations (though, historically, I beleive many of those vehicles were eventually recovered and returned to the front). I already make fairly liberal attachments to Panzer Units; most of the Motorized Divisions get a STUG Bn, and many Panzers have Pioneer Bns. I like attaching STUGs to Mot Divs, particularly since the replacement pool for Stugs tends to be deeper than for Panzers.

I can't tell if I am just not doing well around Leningrad, or B-G really reinforced it strongly. (Don't say if he says in his AAR, and you read it!) Because I see several "Moscow PM Divisions" around Leningrad, I know he has railed-in reinforcements, maybe alot. There are certainly alot of divisions stacked-up, so hopefully there is no shame in failing. I already have a decent defense line, with 9 hexes to defend north of Lake Ilmen, and all of it swamp/rough terrain. I have a decision to make on Pz Gp 4; it's actually in excellent shape in terms of Tank Strength, probably the best of the bunch. I need to move it soon, though, if that's an option. We'll see.

In the DONBAS, he does still have pockets of Armaments in Voroshilovgrad, and the other two cities near Stalino. So there is stuff there, but nothing he can't move fairly soon. The other reason to take it, though, is MANPOWER; there is alot of population down there I would like to displace.

RE: LUFTWAFFE; I wonder if it needs fixing. We don't have a house rule, but I bet B-G isn't going to exploit it.

RE: CRIMEA; it's a sideshow, and I won't commit Panzers there. I will detail 4 German Divisions and maybe 6 Romanian ones, and they will accomplish whatever they can accomplish.

At a minimum, that will be securing the Perekop, where you can bet I will build FORTS right away. If I can get into the Crimea I will; not to stay necessarily, but to immediately retreat to the Perekop when winter starts. Every couple turns helps.

Bombing airfields doesn't work so good anymore in 1.05. For either side.

A very good thing!

quote:

That being said, CAP is very powerful now and the Red Air Force can actually bleed the Luftwaffe in this fashion.

Historically, the Luftwaffe kill ratios went from outstanding down to pretty decent. I think the VVS is too powerful in 1941 for A2A, unless I am doing something wrong.

quote:

AFV losses can be pretty hefty. In my game with James, the Axis is down to just a hair over 1000 runners as of turn 11. (Another 600 are in repair.) That's less than half what he started with.

I am probably on pace for this; out of 1900 tanks, about 650 are in the shop right now. A couple more turns, and I'll be at 1000.

quote:

But infantry losses seem light in this patch. Armaments, not manpower, are the real chokepoint in the Axis replacement situation.

This is a real problem, IMO, if it persists well into 1942. Because, of course, the Wehrmacht should have a Manpower problem in the long-run, not an armaments problem so much. I can accept that maybe the Wehrmacht was short of heavy artillery pieces or AT guns (not just in short bursts), but pretty sure they had enough light weapons to fill out the infantry.

If this is a persistent problem, I hope it's addressed, by either killing more Germans, reducing replacements, while also increasing Armament production

This is a real problem, IMO, if it persists well into 1942. Because, of course, the Wehrmacht should have a Manpower problem in the long-run, not an armaments problem so much. I can accept that maybe the Wehrmacht was short of heavy artillery pieces or AT guns (not just in short bursts), but pretty sure they had enough light weapons to fill out the infantry.

If this is a persistent problem, I hope it's addressed, by either killing more Germans, reducing replacements, while also increasing Armament production

Totally agree. The Germany had plenty of equipment, artillery and ammo. They collected a huge stockpiles of everything after conquering the whole Europe. They had whole French army/GB Expedition/Tzech/Poland etc. armaments stockpiled. The Germany lacked manpower and later also fuel. At 1944 the Germany had more airplanes than they had pilots and fuel for them.

_____________________________

"An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?"

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

Don't waste tanks tring for Leningrad, its will simplely bleed you dry of tanks for nothing. Leningrad after 1.05 is really a total waste of time. I use tanks for 4 turns then head south.

Moscow and Leningrad are almost not even worth tring for now. Kinda why all the Russian fanboys have a hard on for nerfing the Lvov opening.

AGC and AGN panzers should head south as soon as you hit high CV defences. Mop up whatever manpower you can the move back to area around Moscow.

As game sits now HVY is pointless( not even sure why its part of game) only arm matters/manpower a little. Basicly Russian players move everything to around Moscow and Leningrad and run for the hills and evac stuff from south.

As German player you still can take Leningrad, BUT your really wasting tanks for nothing. The Fins totally suck after the 41 winter and are a major handy cap. The manpower loss of Leningrad is really next to nothing.

Moscow is huge, but again with terrain it is probably not going to happen and if it does you will lose way way to many men and tanks.

In the south the Russian players just run and you can take allot for next to nothing. Stalingrad is even possible now.

The nerf to tanks really makes tring for Leningrad or Moscow almost not worth tring for. I personally don't waste time around Leningrad, because the city will be empty and I can bag 2x as many manpower with the mech units in center or south for zero losses.

Set the fight interept to atleast 160, some turns I put it at 300 just to mesh with Russian players. Basicly whenever I think they try a counter attack.

Sadly as poeple get to know how the game system works the over all game is about evacing and running and not fighting.

Russians run during 41 and Germans will run from Dec to March. There really is nothing to fight for. Both sides run instead of fight when they are going to be out gunned.

Don't waste tanks tring for Leningrad, its will simplely bleed you dry of tanks for nothing. Leningrad after 1.05 is really a total waste of time. I use tanks for 4 turns then head south.

Moscow and Leningrad are almost not even worth tring for now. Kinda why all the Russian fanboys have a hard on for nerfing the Lvov opening.

AGC and AGN panzers should head south as soon as you hit high CV defences. Mop up whatever manpower you can the move back to area around Moscow.

As game sits now HVY is pointless( not even sure why its part of game) only arm matters/manpower a little. Basicly Russian players move everything to around Moscow and Leningrad and run for the hills and evac stuff from south.

As German player you still can take Leningrad, BUT your really wasting tanks for nothing. The Fins totally suck after the 41 winter and are a major handy cap. The manpower loss of Leningrad is really next to nothing.

Moscow is huge, but again with terrain it is probably not going to happen and if it does you will lose way way to many men and tanks.

In the south the Russian players just run and you can take allot for next to nothing. Stalingrad is even possible now.

The nerf to tanks really makes tring for Leningrad or Moscow almost not worth tring for. I personally don't waste time around Leningrad, because the city will be empty and I can bag 2x as many manpower with the mech units in center or south for zero losses.

Set the fight interept to atleast 160, some turns I put it at 300 just to mesh with Russian players. Basicly whenever I think they try a counter attack.

Sadly as poeple get to know how the game system works the over all game is about evacing and running and not fighting.

Russians run during 41 and Germans will run from Dec to March. There really is nothing to fight for. Both sides run instead of fight when they are going to be out gunned.

Robinsky? When I opened the turn, quite a surprise; the Russians had pulled back several hexes almost everywhere south of Smolensk. In some places, like around Poltava, they moved back 7 hexes. Very surprising! After fighting me tooth and nail forward, B-G suddenly is doing a limited Robinsky.

I think he is growing weary of the POW losses; I have captured alot of Russians, nearly 1.7 mil POWs so far, after the 120K or so I liquidated this turn. The Robinsky might be a way of limiting my gains, and preventing more Comrades from joining my cause.

As a result, only 18th and 16th Army Infantry were able to come to grips with the Russians. The rest were mostly left to just move into empty space. Which meant that in order to pocket more Reds, not only would my Panzers have to close the pocket, but they would have to OPEN the holes. With my tank losses so far, I can't really afford to slug it out for a turn.

Therefore, I made a big decision: I CALLED A HALT to most of my Panzer Formations. One Panzer Corps did breakout toward Kursk, and Pz Gp 4 kept going. But all of Pz Gp 1 and 3 basically stopped, went on REFIT, and sat in a hex with no Russians adjacent. Rather than burn fuel the Infantry was covering anyway, why not save it? And why attack into a line without infantry support?

I hope next turn, my Panzers are rested and re-fueled, with repaired Panzers and everything else in tip-top shape. I suppose he could retreat again, but unless I make 40 hexes in the next few turns, he has to stop somewhere. When he does, we will use them again.

The HALT: Good idea, or bad?

This could be famous in the annals of warfare, like the halt before Dunkirk. Good idea, or bad?

Driving through "enemy" hexes, then attacking infantry, then attempting to exploit I feel is very tough for Panzer alone, when they are already depleted like mine are. I have tanks in the pool, and alot of the ones on the map need repair. I hope I benefit from rest, in that tanks are repaired, the pool is emptied, fatigue is reduced, and fuel increased, to take max advantage of the infantry support I hope to have next turn.

If he keeps retreating, I guess I'll have another decision to make.

AGN: There was no halt up here, as we were VERY much in contact with the Russians.

In his turn, he pushed a stack of two mobile units back, killing a number of my tanks and guys. First time he has pushed a STACK of Panzers. Ouch!

It was "Rout o Rama" my phase though, as the Soviets were stacked 3-deep but kind of weak, so when they retreated they had no immediate path, and ROUTED. I think over 20 units routed total.

Unfortunately, B-G had the foresight to fortify the NEVA line. The "backdoor" hex has a level-3 fort on it. Drat!

AGC:

I HALTED; nothing going on here

AGS:

We did make a push to KURSK; we are now up to 29 Armaments taken. There were 2 taken in the town. I was surprised the place was empty of combat units; B-g has been good about keeping units in cities. As a side-note, this was also the only point in AGS where I had infantry support right at the point of breakthrough, making it much easier.

Side note, there are 2 more Armaments stuck in that town next to Bryansk; Ordzeho-whatever. With a Panzer unit adjacent, that should be ours.

Once we get to 31, though, I don't see where the next Armaments are coming from. He should be able to evacuate the rest in the Donbas this turn. Maybe TULA if I get that far.

I actually hope he spends rail cap to move the 17 Vehicles still in Kharkov. While the Red Army definitely feels a Vehicle pinch, the factories don't make a whole lot compared to Lend Lease. Those 17 factories make 170 per turn, which is puny compared to the thousands sent from the US of A later on.

Remeber ever town is 1 manpower and there are allot of them between Tula and Rostov.

The Armermant number is to low I am afraid. 100 before was death to anyone, even if you only killed less then 3 million Russians by January 1st 42.

Probably 50 is the brake point now. VS a good Russian player unless he realy screws up you be lucky to hit 30.

You can make up for it by taking Moscow, but again the Russian player would have to make a mistake.

As the German player we really can only take what we are given vs a good Russian player.

We have very little we can take at this point in game.

1. Rail is way way over rated, so getting more then 50 arm is almost impossible. Not sure why Hvy is even in game other then window dressing. 2. Killing more then 3.5 millions Russians is almost impossible, because Russians don't have to defend south after turn 7. They can simply do the Hill Billy and run for the hills. 3. Taking Moscow is almost impossible, losses just dont justify taking an empty city worth only 100 manpower pts. You can take more dot towns east of Stalino/Kurck/Orel for almost no losses. Taking Leningrad for that matter costs more then its worth. 4. The VP system is a joke. Not that I am pointing out anything someone can't see before they even play. Kinda like the 1v1=2v1 rule.

So basicly unless your playing a newbie you can't win, its baked into the cake.

Your only options are to try and pockets units ad take manpower pts. Fighting north of Tula will drain your army very fast.

AGC and AGS can really push a long ways east if you plan out railheads way ahead of time. This will not bag allot of troops because he run like a girl, but when blizzard comes you can do same and run west like a girl.

42 would should deside game, but again there is no reason to fight and russians will just run in south.

Almost as bad as stalemate before 1.05, but we can move units west and east. Still not fighting, but it makes us all feel better we are moving units around.

I believe he is refering to the late 1.04 patches where attrition for tanks went up when you are moving formations around not using rail. Obviously the Germans feel this more in 1941 than any other time with how far their panzer formations have to move and also the reliability of the German tanks is not that hot. The Russians will likely see the same thing with formations that use KV tanks.

This might seem like a nerf, but I absolutely agree with doing it from the standpoint of giving the game a better feel compared to what actually happen. I would have to check my book, but I think the Germans had around 100 operational tanks on the entire front in March of 42. From there, they were able to bring the number of ready tanks back up to 3k in time for the summer offensive. I just got done with Guderian's book and he stated his lead panzer division that closed the Kiev pocket had something like 20 tanks left.

It just means the Germans can't move their panzer divisions all over the map, but must be conservative on how they move them and also give them some rest from time to time to let them fix their broken tanks. As a German, I plan on the motorized divisions taking more of a role than they have in the past in helping with attacks, etc since they don't have tanks that break down.

This business with the tank breakdowns eventually catches up with the Sovs, btw.

In 1943 it is entirely possible to lose 1000+ AFVs a turn as the Soviet, due in large part to these breakdowns. Yes, 1000 tanks a turn. When you're moving around 30 odd mobile corps, it adds up.

Perhaps, though when I played Soviets, I was profligate with my tanks, and never felt I was short. When you build or get leased 600 a turn, you can afford alot of losses.

PELTON: Thanks; he has definitely taken lots of losses. When the Red Army is under 4 mil men, that's serious trouble. Add in the Axis Allied troops in Russia, and I outnumber him right now. My Tank losses are severe, though. This is why I am really tapping the breaks on them.

Anyway, back to the war.....

Turn 11

MOre Robinsky: The Reds are in full flight now along most areas of the front. He has suffered terrible losses for sure, though my Panzers are pretty cooked. Now, he is giving up chunks of territory.

This turn, I did do some Panzer moves, though I parked 2 Panzer Corps again. I couldn't help but attack toward the Donbas and Tula, targets that are calling me to do some damage.

The Infantry spent another turn mostly marching, and we only pocketed 3 units. So, this strategy IS limiting Red Army losses for him, but at some point he has to turn around and fight. I think that point is coming around Tula.

AGN: I am a little stuck up here. We have cleared everything up to the Volkhov and Neva lines, but those are brick walls of units. The Neva line in particular is very strong, and not sure I can crack it. We'll find out.

AGC: PZ Gp 3 is pretty spent, but a turn of rest did them some good, as our Mot Divs were up to strength. We surrounded 3 units (as a bonus though 2 are Cavalry), so another turn of light POW haul.

AGS: Most of Pz Gp2 is parked this turn west of Kursk; we are building up for a push on Vornoezh, where I would really like to kill the Sturmovik factories.

B-G made a mistake around the Donbas; he didn't garrison 2 cities with 3 Arm each.

I destroyed 11 Armaments this turn; 2 in Bryansk, and 9 around the Donbas. He didn't have to lose at least 6 of those around the Donbas. B-G hasn't made too many mistakes, but he made one there (and leaving Kursk open last turn)

I learned that lesson the hard way myself: Always leave a Russian unit in every city.

By this time I am thinking he should be fighting forward and not running.

This will cost him arm pts.

Fighting forward should not be done until after turn 10ish as Russian player. It cost him allott of extra troops (400,000), which means he is very weak by turn 10-13 the key turns for German player.

Bad moves by Russian player during turns 1-5 really come back to haunt them 10-13. I beleive you can basicly put the game away early. You will atleast have a good chance at a very strong 42 summer offensive. If he screws up during that hes really toast.

In many aspects this game is quite similar to the original progress, not only if looking at the fighting around Leningrad or the break into the Crimean peninsula. B-G appears to fight it out with a quite similar strategy, although the situation at Leningrad and near Moscow seems already to have reached a worse state than historically. Perhaps the high-water mark is going to be even further East, but the situation is so fluid at them moment, anything seems possible. I wouldn't be too worried about the losses the Soviets have taken so far -- they are still pretty strong, and if I recall correctly, in November 1941 the Russians had at some point fewer troops in the field than the Germans (without allies), and yet within weeks they stopped the Germans with the help of the weather, and did recover to reasonable numbers in summer 42. Highly interesting AAR, not only for the sake of watching the game balance between two very advanced players. Will be extremely interesting to see how the Soviet winter offensive will turn out, and the German 42 summer one, if it appears sensible to try that long shot rather than preserving forces for the later defense.

The Leningrad area is interesting from the standpoint that you will likely have to use 4 stacks of infantry (attack and then rotate in fresh units and try attacking a weaken defender again) and you just don't have that available along with watching the river and having AGN units south of Lake Ilmen.

The bad part for you is you can likely hold here, but when that river freezes in the winter, you can bet the Russians will be coming hard.

Being in control of two of the ports that feed Leningrad, I wonder about trying to bomb out the last port as well to cut the supply.

Being in control of two of the ports that feed Leningrad, I wonder about trying to bomb out the last port as well to cut the supply.

I was thinking this as well....anyone ever try it? Does it impact the units in Leningrad?

Good idea, but not one I've tried.

If you guys are not familiar with Pelton's "Leningrad Protocol" regarding SUs, let him or I know and I will discuss it.

Briefly, if you bring half the pioneer SUs in the entire Wehrmacht to Leningrad, plus all the Stugs and 6-8 of the "Heavy" artillery SUs into 18th Army, you can really create a Schwerpunkt that wins every fight it starts.

I did it and I was beating CV 25-35 stacks in level 3 forts with 1 deliberate attack, first try. The trick was to have 2 pioneers and 1 stug SU in each infantry division, along with heavy artillery at both the Corps and Army level (Army HQs have to be close for this).

Each turn, my fighters would try to back off the line 1 hex, and refit, while non-fighters would hold the hexes they occupied.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 9/28/2011 2:19:07 PM >

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I sometimes get the feeling that those involved in testing the game (WitW) are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome.

In my first game against JAMIAM I bombed ports and isolated Leningrad. Though my choice was Osinovets as the airbases for CAP was further away. I was able to take the City by the end of mud.

Now, in 1.05, the losses from CAP will be far higher, but it is still doable. However, I suspect as a smart player BG will have an airbase inside of the Leningrad pocket and should be able to get bridgehead supply there - so have a lot of fighters in the region at least so the CAP losses are his as he tries to fly in supplies (or gives up and lets you bomb ports).

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"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

Because Armament points are dear; at game-start, I had a pool of 600,000 for Germany. That is now down to 179,000, and falling each turn, so I will run out shortly. I would rather keep Rifles in the line than artillery at this point. When production increases after winter, I'll turn Artillery back-on.

Krhm, may I ask how do you setup artillery only to 50% TOE? I know how to do it with whole division. Is there some nasty shortcut to make it happen with every divisions at once or do you have to do it for every single piece?

_____________________________

"An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?"

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

Krhm, may I ask how do you setup artillery only to 50% TOE? I know how to do it with whole division. Is there some nasty shortcut to make it happen with every divisions at once or do you have to do it for every single piece?

Yes, there is a shortcut.

Give me a few minutes to open the game so I can take a screen shot, and I'll post it in the main forum (not war room) with some clever title, like Reducing TOEs in one fell swoop.