Kojima and Roger Ebert both explained why they feel games aren't art, and ill post those articles when I have time. I'm on my phone right now, but it basically comes down to games leaving much of the expression up to the player and not the creator.

Kojima says that the goal of a game is to be entertaining, but there are games that aren't built for entertainment, yet are still impactful and engaging.

Ebert is also too into semantics, not all games are about high scores and goals. That is a simplistic approach. Besides, he has criticized games based only on what he has seen, yet interactivity is a major part of gaming.

The unique thing is that the player is part of creating the art, but the creator still has control/influence over the guidance and emotions of the player.

I haven't put plenty of thought into it, so I'm not really sure if there has been a game that is art. That doesn't change the fact the games could be art.

I don't even think music is an art, it's music, that simple (music can give you an artsy atmosphere or it can be abstract but it still isn't art in itself). Art to me is painting and sculptures or whatever is in that specific field. the original meaning to the word art was just that. now everyone wants to be some sort of an artist so they took the original meaning and twisted it to suit almost everything. to me though, it's not games, music, movies, or talents such as juggling, dancing, etc etc.

when you go to an ART museum, you go their to see paintings and sculptures, now that is art, hence the name "art museum".

I don't even think music is an art, it's music, that simple (music can give you an artsy atmosphere or it can be abstract but it still isn't art in itself). Art to me is painting and sculptures or whatever is in that specific field. the original meaning to the word art was just that. now everyone wants to be some sort of an artist so they took the original meaning and twisted it to suit almost everything. to me though, it's not games, music, movies, or talents such as juggling, dancing, etc etc.

when you go to an ART museum, you go their to see paintings and sculptures, now that is art, hence the name "art museum".

whilst im somewhat tolerant of others views, yours however comes across with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

dude, i can't think of any better way to put it other then to tell you flat out that the part in bold is wrong. and your subsequent post is therefore erroneous.

ART was only seen the way you see it after the 16th century or so.... ergo, your "original meaning" is false.

Art is not limited to "Paintings ans Sculptures". that is pure fallacy, art is best described as a means to express your skill or emotions....but this is a philosophical debate i gave up on years ago.

if i might use your own post again:

you go their to see paintings and sculptures

again, illogical points. as game developers both paint and sculpt. and put this on show for you inside their game world....which, if im not mistaken, you've been to see countless times over the years.

It really depends. Some games I feel truly are art. Some are just games. Personally I think the label "game" doesn't do titles like Metal Gear Solid (insert favorite # here) and Mass Effect (#) justice. I feel like interactive multimedia experience is a better fit... But what ever. Whether or not art snobs consider this or that art doesn't bother me. To me video games are art, but they are also games. I think they should be respected as a quality source of enjoyment like other mediums like movies, music, tv, and even theater.

This will happen as older generations with no ties to gaming die off. One day we'll have a president (if you're in the US) that is/was a gamer in his/her spare time.

What happened to the dislike button? I want it back.

Also, the comment on interactivity, I have been to an interactive play before. I think Art can be interactive. Video games would be what stuck up close minded art snobs call low art...

whilst im somewhat tolerant of others views, yours however comes across with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

dude, i can't think of any better way to put it other then to tell you flat out that the part in bold is wrong. and your subsequent post is therefore erroneous.

ART was only seen the way you see it after the 16th century or so.... ergo, your "original meaning" is false.

Art is not limited to "Paintings ans Sculptures". that is pure fallacy, art is best described as a means to express your skill or emotions....but this is a philosophical debate i gave up on years ago.

if i might use your own post again:

again, illogical points. as game developers both paint and sculpt. and put this on show for you inside their game world....which, if im not mistaken, you've been to see countless times over the years.

in future, don't make crap up and try to pass it off as truth.

this is my take on it and if you don't like what I say, stop getting your panties in a bunch and grow up a bit. you have your own views and I have mine, deal with it. "come across as a sledgehammer" like your view is any more factual then mine? you also pointed that out with debating it with others? ugh

by the way, when I go to art museums, I don't see people doing flips, making video games, etc etc. games to me are just that, games. there is no other side for me when it comes to gaming. When I sit and record music all day, I see music, not art. Not everything has to be sacred in a sense of artistic nonesense.

Videogames are the form of art movies, painting, music can never hope to achieve. Interactivity is the essence of art to begin with since interactivity requires imagination (and imagination creates art). Each individual interacts with a painting or a movie differently (hence the different opinions and interpretations)

That's what it comes down to. The definition of art you choose to base this on.

Kojima and Roger Ebert both explained why they feel games aren't art, and ill post those articles when I have time. I'm on my phone right now, but it basically comes down to games leaving much of the expression up to the player and not the creator.

The definition of art is very simple. People just love trying to make it seem more complex than it is. Especially those people who's business is art-driven (i.e. Kojima and Ebert)

They are both mistaken though. The player has extremely limited control over the expression in a game (depending on the game of course). And while through the interactive elements, the player can somewhat control in what order the expression is presented to them, they in general cannot create something outside the intent of the game designers. The game designer is under no such constraint and is limited only by his/her imagination and the hardware they are dealing with as well as the skill of the programmers. They can take the art in their games (the visuals, the music, the atmosphere) in any direction they desire. That's true expression. The player only interacts with the environments the designer created and while there is some ability to express ones self within that environment, it is a far cry from the unrestricted expression available to the designers.

I don't even think music is an art, it's music, that simple (music can give you an artsy atmosphere or it can be abstract but it still isn't art in itself). Art to me is painting and sculptures or whatever is in that specific field. the original meaning to the word art was just that. now everyone wants to be some sort of an artist so they took the original meaning and twisted it to suit almost everything. to me though, it's not games, music, movies, or talents such as juggling, dancing, etc etc.

when you go to an ART museum, you go their to see paintings and sculptures, now that is art, hence the name "art museum".

You mistake the meaning of the word ART.

Art is simply a creation meant to EXPRESS something. An emotion. A message. A story. That's it. It's that simple. A roller coaster is art. It is designed to convey a feeling of joy, or fear or a mixture of both. The designer of a roller coaster is an artist. A train however, is not art. It is simply functional...for the purpose of transportation...it is not designed to convey an emotion, a message or tell a story. A train designed to look cool and awe-inspiring would be art however. A car can be art. Most sports cars are art (Lamborghini anyone?) as they are designed to look cool and interesting. However a bus is functional and not designed to impress anyone. A novel is art. It is created to tell a story, convey emotions and oftentimes contain multiple messages. A text book is not art. It is simply designed to instruct and inform. Most TV shows are art. The news is not art. It is designed to inform. Pretty much all music is art, as the creator was trying to express something. An emotion or message or even if it was created to get people on the dance floor (convey the emotion of joy). And thus, any videogame designed to invoke a feeling in the individual playing the game (hopefully it is at the very least designed with the intent of the player having FUN) then it is art. IT. IS. THAT. SIMPLE.

Art is simply a creation meant to EXPRESS something. An emotion. A message. A story. That's it. It's that simple. A roller coaster is art. It is designed to convey a feeling of joy, or fear or a mixture of both. The designer of a roller coaster is an artist. A train however, is not art. It is simply functional...for the purpose of transportation...it is not designed to convey an emotion, a message or tell a story. A train designed to look cool and awe-inspiring would be art however. A car can be art. Most sports cars are art (Lamborghini anyone?) as they are designed to look cool and interesting. However a bus is functional and not designed to impress anyone. A novel is art. It is created to tell a story, convey emotions and oftentimes contain multiple messages. A text book is not art. It is simply designed to instruct and inform. Most TV shows are art. The news is not art. It is designed to inform. Pretty much all music is art, as the creator was trying to express something. An emotion or message or even if it was created to get people on the dance floor (convey the emotion of joy). And thus, any videogame designed to invoke a feeling in the individual playing the game (hopefully it is at the very least designed with the intent of the player having FUN) then it is art. IT. IS. THAT. SIMPLE.

like I said, it's my take on what art is to me. I wont considering anything else art unless it's those things I mentioned, period. if there is no defined answer and everyone has pretty much their own take on it, this is my take on it. people can argue it all they want against me, but for me it's paintings and sculptures. when I hear the word art, my mind goes right to paintings and sculptures, it's actually that simple and in no way complex at all.

like I said, it's my take on what art is to me. I wont considering anything else art unless it's those things I mentioned, period. if there is no defined answer and everyone has pretty much their own take on it, this is my take on it. people can argue it all they want against me, but for me it's paintings and sculptures. when I hear the word art, my mind goes right to paintings and sculptures, it's actually that simple and in no way complex at all.

Art has a defined answer and it is what I told you. It is very simple.

What is not simple is determining what is and what is not art, which is why this conversation is going the way it is.

Art is a creation as a form of expression. That's it. Pretty much for the courts this is the definition. That's why Porn is still legal. The porn industry successfully convinced the courts that porn is artistic expression. This is why it can't be outlawed. The same for videogames. Games keep coming under assault with politicians trying to make it so games can't be sold to minors (or that they can be censored) but it keeps getting struck down in court, because videogames are considered to be a form of expression and thus are protected as a form of art. The most that can be done is a ratings system (like movies and shows) as a guide and warning to parents etc.

The definition of art is very simple. People just love trying to make it seem more complex than it is. Especially those people who's business is art-driven (i.e. Kojima and Ebert)

They are both mistaken though. The player has extremely limited control over the expression in a game (depending on the game of course). And while through the interactive elements, the player can somewhat control in what order the expression is presented to them, they in general cannot create something outside the intent of the game designers. The game designer is under no such constraint and is limited only by his/her imagination and the hardware they are dealing with as well as the skill of the programmers. They can take the art in their games (the visuals, the music, the atmosphere) in any direction they desire. That's true expression. The player only interacts with the environments the designer created and while there is some ability to express ones self within that environment, it is a far cry from the unrestricted expression available to the designers.

I believe video games is art. Art is just the expression of a human being.I believe video games are a deeper form of art. If final fantasy x, shadow of colossus, ff7, Okami, and papo and yo(forgot the name) isn't art then i don't know what art is.
The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
Works produced by such skill and imagination.

Last edited by Silvy; 11-19-2012 at 17:30.

Remember that i'm going to die is the best way I know to avoid trap of thinking you have something to lose, you're already naked, there's no reason not to follow your heart.

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by The Black Wolf

Oh my! Silver, you're cute! You're like the young version of Leonardo DiCaprio!

Considering that the Smithsonian American Art Museum has a videogame branch and a curator and videogame art is being displayed at the Smithsonian, the question of whether or not videogames is art is kinda moot now, isn't it.

Considering that the Smithsonian American Art Museum has a videogame branch and a curator and videogame art is being displayed at the Smithsonian, the question of whether or not videogames is art is kinda moot now, isn't it.

I'm just curious what your thoughts are on other types of games besides video games.

I'm just curious what your thoughts are on other types of games besides video games.

I think the vast majority could be classed as art to some degree. I think it depends on the amount of creativity and imagination (i.e. expression) that went into the creation/design of the game. Chess can most certainly be art. Checkers, not so much.

I think the vast majority could be classed as art to some degree. I think it depends on the amount of creativity and imagination (i.e. expression) that went into the creation/design of the game. Chess can most certainly be art. Checkers, not so much.

This man has it right. Thank you.
Plus rep.

Remember that i'm going to die is the best way I know to avoid trap of thinking you have something to lose, you're already naked, there's no reason not to follow your heart.

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by The Black Wolf

Oh my! Silver, you're cute! You're like the young version of Leonardo DiCaprio!

Candyland is art. There is definite artistic expression in the design of the game board. Dungeons and Dragons is art. But it is also an artistic supply kit (the game rules are like an artists paints...it allows the game master and players to create a narrative through which they can express themselves)

Sports can be art as well. Maybe not Baseball or Football or Soccer, but figure skating is art. Gymnastic dance is art. Synchronized Swimming (which I saw for the first time at the last Summer Olympics) is art.

The question that needs to be asked is this: Is there expression in the creation of or performance of this game? If the answer is no, there is no expression to speak of, then the answer is no, the game is not art. If the answer is yes (such as in figure skating...serious expression in that sport!) then the answer is yes, it is art.

Now to throw a monkey wrench in things, I think there is a lot of expression found even in team sports such as Football, Baseball and Soccer. Players have signature moves, victory poses and favored chants. Teams have cheerleaders who are there to heighten the emotion of the fans and the fans themselves are walking billboards of expression of their love for their favored team. That makes me reconsider whether to count team sports as a form of art....

Candyland is art. There is definite artistic expression in the design of the game board. Dungeons and Dragons is art. But it is also an artistic supply kit (the game rules are like an artists paints...it allows the game master and players to create a narrative through which they can express themselves)

Sports can be art as well. Maybe not Baseball or Football or Soccer, but figure skating is art. Gymnastic dance is art. Synchronized Swimming (which I saw for the first time at the last Summer Olympics) is art.

The question that needs to be asked is this: Is there expression in the creation of or performance of this game? If the answer is no, there is no expression to speak of, then the answer is no, the game is not art. If the answer is yes (such as in figure skating...serious expression in that sport!) then the answer is yes, it is art.

Now to throw a monkey wrench in things, I think there is a lot of expression found even in team sports such as Football, Baseball and Soccer. Players have signature moves, victory poses and favored chants. Teams have cheerleaders who are there to heighten the emotion of the fans and the fans themselves are walking billboards of expression of their love for their favored team. That makes me reconsider whether to count team sports as a form of art....

Thing is, all of these games and sports might have artistic expression within them, but is the overall game or sport an art? Sure, the game board of Candyland has art on it, but is the overall experience art? I don't know about that.

By the way, the sports you mentioned are more similar to dance competitions than sports. It's all based on judged scores.

Art has a defined answer and it is what I told you. It is very simple.

What is not simple is determining what is and what is not art, which is why this conversation is going the way it is.

Art is a creation as a form of expression. That's it. Pretty much for the courts this is the definition. That's why Porn is still legal. The porn industry successfully convinced the courts that porn is artistic expression. This is why it can't be outlawed. The same for videogames. Games keep coming under assault with politicians trying to make it so games can't be sold to minors (or that they can be censored) but it keeps getting struck down in court, because videogames are considered to be a form of expression and thus are protected as a form of art. The most that can be done is a ratings system (like movies and shows) as a guide and warning to parents etc.

So the courts consider videogames to be art. Good enough for me!

doesn't mean it's right. many things in this world are padded to make other people feel better, doesn't mean anything and I'm certainly not a sheep in that matter. paintings and sculptures are pure 100% expression and creation. point being, you wont change my mind on it, because you say it's this doesn't mean it's that at all, because I say it's this doesn't mean it's that. Hell, people in competitions in this world get trophies for last place, which is stupid. so now because "tweedle dee & tweedle dum" want to be artists while they are in music, music has to be an art, or game developers are now artists? just so they feel better and mix in with an original artform, please. you wont change my mind and quite frankly it's not stupid at all. If you believe movie creation is an artform, fair enough but I certainly wont follow in that mindset.

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