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Secondly, youve left it VERY late on, when people will have pre-ordered the game, before releasing this info which changes evereything for a lot of people.
This stinks. You released all the new features, the trailers, the blogs, the articles.

And then 4 weeks before release: ( OH by the way, you wont be able to play the game like you used to!)

I still cant work out quite why people have such major issues with using Steam. Or why they are all getting so worked up over using it and what not. I use Steam, never had an issue. Everyone I know that has used steam hasnt had any issues, either. It works seamlessly, automatically updates things, and this only requires the internet to start with then never again. Being forced to use a program people dont want to use... not like it will kill you. I just feel people are making something out of very little here tbh. Ah well. I dont really care anyway, I'll be getting it still. Glad its been using steam, keeps my collection in one place. makes it easy to play anywhere, anytime.

Well thats great for you but you need to accept that whilst Steam is generally a good piece of software it goes wrong from time to time.

Overall its probably a fairly small % of users who have a problem, either minor which is fixed within a few days or a major one which takes longer if it gets fixed at all.

When these issues occur SI/Sega have zero control over the support and can do nothing to help you.

I still cant work out quite why people have such major issues with using Steam. Or why they are all getting so worked up over using it and what not. I use Steam, never had an issue. Everyone I know that has used steam hasnt had any issues, either. It works seamlessly, automatically updates things, and this only requires the internet to start with then never again. Being forced to use a program people dont want to use... not like it will kill you. I just feel people are making something out of very little here tbh. Ah well. I dont really care anyway, I'll be getting it still. Glad its been using steam, keeps my collection in one place. makes it easy to play anywhere, anytime.

I hope you saw the funny side when/if you noticed what was posted just before you.

Secondly, youve left it VERY late on, when people will have pre-ordered the game, before releasing this info which changes evereything for a lot of people.
This stinks. You released all the new features, the trailers, the blogs, the articles.

And then 4 weeks before release: ( OH by the way, you wont be able to play the game like you used to!)

Is finding it difficult to settle in the new forum. Is homesick. Is Unsettled.

Posts

15,886

Sorry, I wanted to stay out of these threads after Eugene went on an utter tirade of twisting my posts into something that only he could read in them, but;

David - Sega is clueless. Steam is not a good anti-piracy measure. It just isn't. There's obviously other motives behind this (how do they not get more money from Steam when it sells games for higher prices than a lot of other retailers??) that they don't want to disclose, and, as we know from the past with Sega, they are not at all honest with their customers.

Steam is not 100% reliable, no piece of software is. So removing the ability to have an alternate method of playing is a) very poor customer service and b) a very questionable business decision.

I have to admit, even though I have Steam and it has never been an issue for me, apart from the few times it has completely broken, the whole idea of being forced to use it is pretty poor.

I remember when I activated 09 through Steam there were issues to activate, people couldn't actually activate for a number of days. Then if you forget to change Steam to Offline (something I have done frequently) and have an internet shortage, then you are pretty much screwed.

Surely SI can come up with an in house authentication system using Sega's resources where you register with SI/Sega through the game on the disc that works; rather than using a 3rd party with a history of configuration or installation problems and a penchant to have random periods of not working. (usually when Steam needs to be updated and your update breaks it, ensuring you have to remove steam completely, delete everything, download a new version and install it again.)

Not to mention enforced patching and not allowing you to launch the game unless you update it. Something which is annoying as hell, if I want to download an update in the background while playing the game then I should be able to, not wait for however long it takes to update before being able to launch my game.

Obviously, the decision is made. Nothing can change it, but it is still an awful decision regardless.

FM11 had no required activation. You could install and either play via disc-in-tray, or register via Steam and then there was no need to have your disc to play. And you could access FM on any machine via Steam. Last year we looked for a method to combat piracy, but didn't feel there was an acceptable solution that was balanced the battle against piracy without penalizing genuine customers. This year we feel we've found that solution.

you found the solution just for yourself (or your company), not for the customer.

your decision, ok, but lot of people didn't like it... no FM customer anymore.

Hi,
i have registered on forum just to say that i support full Steamworks integration.

Steam is great service, and i use it all the time - i have spent hundreds of hours in previous FM games, all on Steam, without a single problem!
Achievements are fun, Cloud saves and SteamPlay are extremely useful, and a lot of people have all they gaming friends (and games) there.

I saw few complains about Steam memory usage...on Windows 7, while idle, Steam is using only 30-40 mb of ram!

And finally, Steam has huge, and fast growing, community of around 40 million active accounts, all because of great service they provide.

ps. Today, all services have "heaters" (who are speaking bad about service, without any valid\solid reason), and heaters gonna hate , but in case of Steam, vast majority of PC gamers are supporters!

I have to admit, even though I have Steam and it has never been an issue for me, apart from the few times it has completely broken, the whole idea of being forced to use it is pretty poor.

I remember when I activated 09 through Steam there were issues to activate, people couldn't actually activate for a number of days. Then if you forget to change Steam to Offline (something I have done frequently) and have an internet shortage, then you are pretty much screwed.

Surely SI can come up with an in house authentication system using Sega's resources where you register with SI/Sega through the game on the disc that works; rather than using a 3rd party with a history of configuration or installation problems and a penchant to have random periods of not working. (usually when Steam needs to be updated and your update breaks it, ensuring you have to remove steam completely, delete everything, download a new version and install it again.)

Not to mention enforced patching and not allowing you to launch the game unless you update it. Something which is annoying as hell, if I want to download an update in the background while playing the game then I should be able to, not wait for however long it takes to update before being able to launch my game.

Obviously, the decision is made. Nothing can change it, but it is still an awful decision regardless.

they could change their decision and release a patch on release day/before release day that allows users to activate by other means..

oh, but you wont be able to download it unless its through steam obviously!!

I've rarely had issues with Steam since it first came out with Half Life 2 all those years ago - I buy almost all of my games on it now; they do obscenely good sales on a regular basis. So many games I've bought and have yet to play

I'm pleased to see SI take this route. I've only read 3 of the 11 preceding pages, but there are a lot of folk complaining who don't seem to have read between the lines. If my maths is right, based on a comment either in the first post or on the first page: 80% of those playing FM haven't paid for it. That is shocking. For a game that gives us hundreds of hours of great quality entertainment, is generally one of the cheapest PC games at retail... there's just no excuse. I can't blame Sega for taking this route at all - they could be taking a route that is even more restrictive (like Ubisoft do with many of their games). They've a right to protect their IP against theft. It's not piracy - it's theft, plain and simple. I've met Miles, and Duffy, Bertie BG, the Collyers, and a lot of the team - they're all nice blokes. They deserve better than to have their work ripped off by thiefs. If this move deters 5% of that criminality, then it's fine by me.

And if they can somehow integrate with SteamCloud so that I can access my saves from anywhere... that'd be awesome!

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

FM11 had no required activation. You could install and either play via disc-in-tray, or register via Steam and then there was no need to have your disc to play. And you could access FM on any machine via Steam. Last year we looked for a method to combat piracy, but didn't feel there was an acceptable solution that was balanced the battle against piracy without penalizing genuine customers. This year we feel we've found that solution.

You obviously haven't, I'm a genuine customer and you are penalising me. You have made the decision to discard a proportion of your existing customers in the hope of turning a larger amount of pirates into paying customers. Good luck with that!

Might I suggest you get your consultancy fee back and look for something a little less naive.

I've rarely had issues with Steam since it first came out with Half Life 2 all those years ago - I buy almost all of my games on it now; they do obscenely good sales on a regular basis. So many games I've bought and have yet to play

I'm pleased to see SI take this route. I've only read 3 of the 11 preceding pages, but there are a lot of folk complaining who don't seem to have read between the lines. If my maths is right, based on a comment either in the first post or on the first page: 80% of those playing FM haven't paid for it. That is shocking. For a game that gives us hundreds of hours of great quality entertainment, is generally one of the cheapest PC games at retail... there's just no excuse. I can't blame Sega for taking this route at all - they could be taking a route that is even more restrictive (like Ubisoft do with many of their games). They've a right to protect their IP against theft. It's not piracy - it's theft, plain and simple. I've met Miles, and Duffy, Bertie BG, the Collyers, and a lot of the team - they're all nice blokes. They deserve better than to have their work ripped off by thiefs. If this move deters 5% of that criminality, then it's fine by me.

And if they can somehow integrate with SteamCloud so that I can access my saves from anywhere... that'd be awesome!

i have got all the copy of the game since 2001 edition. All of them payed (just some for free because of the italian research\testing).

but i still don't agree with this decision. I feel bad because of that...sorry

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

you had your chance with 09 and steam. Again, i wont be giving it another chance, so Again, what are you going to do for me? (like it or leave it i guess?)

I still cant work out quite why people have such major issues with using Steam. Or why they are all getting so worked up over using it and what not. I use Steam, never had an issue. Everyone I know that has used steam hasnt had any issues, either. It works seamlessly, automatically updates things, and this only requires the internet to start with then never again. Being forced to use a program people dont want to use... not like it will kill you. I just feel people are making something out of very little here tbh. Ah well. I dont really care anyway, I'll be getting it still. Glad its been using steam, keeps my collection in one place. makes it easy to play anywhere, anytime.

My main issue with it, as evidenced by the Activity Monitor postings, is that on a Mac Steam is a bloated piece of crap. That memory could be put to good use running FM, rather than going on running that PoS in the background.http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7081598

Neil I think what can definitely be taken from this thread is that the timing of the announcement has been poor, this should have been the #1 announcement, it is the most important feature of FM12 as it is the only one that will stop people from playing the game.

As for Sega thinking long & hard about this decision I'm not entirely sold on that considering they have a huge tie-in with Steam in terms of new releases & access to their back catalogue

Once again I appreciate the fact that you guys have been active in this thread rather than just ignoring it until it goes away but from a small scale PR position it could have been handled better.

You obviously haven't, I'm a genuine customer and you are penalising me. You have made the decision to discard a proportion of your existing customers in the hope of turning a larger amount of pirates into paying customers. Good luck with that!

Might I suggest you get your consultancy fee back and look for something a little less naive.

I've rarely had issues with Steam since it first came out with Half Life 2 all those years ago - I buy almost all of my games on it now; they do obscenely good sales on a regular basis. So many games I've bought and have yet to play

I'm pleased to see SI take this route. I've only read 3 of the 11 preceding pages, but there are a lot of folk complaining who don't seem to have read between the lines. If my maths is right, based on a comment either in the first post or on the first page: 80% of those playing FM haven't paid for it. That is shocking. For a game that gives us hundreds of hours of great quality entertainment, is generally one of the cheapest PC games at retail... there's just no excuse. I can't blame Sega for taking this route at all - they could be taking a route that is even more restrictive (like Ubisoft do with many of their games). They've a right to protect their IP against theft. It's not piracy - it's theft, plain and simple. I've met Miles, and Duffy, Bertie BG, the Collyers, and a lot of the team - they're all nice blokes. They deserve better than to have their work ripped off by thiefs. If this move deters 5% of that criminality, then it's fine by me.

And if they can somehow integrate with SteamCloud so that I can access my saves from anywhere... that'd be awesome!

If those figures are correct than you're right it is shocking but piracy is only one part of the discussion and it seems to be overshadowing other issues.

I don't think you'll find any real fans who condone piracy and are onboard with SI/Sega doing their best to combat it. These fans, myself included, don't have an issue with anti piracy measures just with Steam being that measure (without an alternative).

Maybe at the end of the day there just isn't any better alternative and the people that made the decision have made the right choice but the posts from SI/Sega staff don't fill me with confidence that this is the case.

Disgusting that this was announced so close to release when SI have known it would be the case for probably a whole year.

I think they've spent most of the year deliberating the decision to be honest, they've said that they haven't taken it lightly, though I don't think they were expecting the reaction to be this negative.

[QUOTE=El Zar;7082051]My main issue with it, as evidenced by the Activity Monitor postings, is that on a Mac Steam is a bloated piece of crap. That memory could be put to good use running FM, rather than going on running that PoS in the background.http://community.sigames.com/showthr...=1#post7081598

If your PC/MAC has issues running Steam with FM then its not fit to run either. Any decent modern machine should be 4Gb plus , FFS you can get that for well under £100 now and it will improve the overall performance of your PC no end.

Sitting with an I3 + 4Gb on this one and at any one time FM uses no more than 1.5Gb , Steam with about 35Mb and thats on a 3+ years old machine.

I think they've spent most of the year deliberating the decision to be honest, they've said that they haven't taken it lightly, though I don't think they were expecting the reaction to be this negative.

If they didnt then they were very much kidding themselves. An FMer is one of the most protective gamers, any change to FM is met with a hugely divided opinion, any DMR announcments have been met with huge distain. If they honestly thought this was going to pass these so called "loyal" customers then they were burying their heads.

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

Anybody could find in 5 minutes cracked versions of 99% steam games, steam is great but the games get cracked anyway, the main advantage is that no one could play the game before the release!

Neil I think what can definitely be taken from this thread is that the timing of the announcement has been poor, this should have been the #1 announcement as it is the most important feature of FM12 as it is the only one that will stop people from playing the game.

As for Sega thinking long & hard about this decision I'm not entirely sold on that considering they have a huge tie-in with Steam in terms of new releases & access to their back catalogue

Once again I appreciate the fact that you guys have been active in this thread rather than just ignoring it util it goes away but from a small scale PR position it could have been handled better.

I understand what you're saying but probably wouldn't describe it as a feature!

Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

Im just wondering if SI/SEGA have a 'plan b' should this fall on its face?

If sales do infact drop as a direct result of the Steam issue, or there is a major problem with Steam activation, have SI/SEGA thought about making a patch so that people with the DVD can patch up and play with the DVD in the drive like normal?

FM11 had no required activation. You could install and either play via disc-in-tray, or register via Steam and then there was no need to have your disc to play. And you could access FM on any machine via Steam. Last year we looked for a method to combat piracy, but didn't feel there was an acceptable solution that was balanced the battle against piracy without penalizing genuine customers. This year we feel we've found that solution.

I understand what you're saying but probably wouldn't describe it as a feature!

Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.

I understand what you're saying but probably wouldn't describe it as a feature!

Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.

Surely to give it the chance you ask for, we first have to buy it, download steam and activate it on steam. If after doing this we find it does not "do the job" will you then refund the money we spent on it. No.. didnt think so.

Neil I have unquestioning faith in SI, unfortunately that does not fully extend to Sega & ii most certainly does not extend to Steam.

I've already has issues today when trying to get access to my Steam account which has been inactivate for over 3 years yet I am supposed to remember passwords & a answer an impossible secret question. I will give it another go but that is someting for another day.

Surely to give it the chance you ask for, we first have to buy it, download steam and activate it on steam. If after doing this we find it does not "do the job" will you then refund the money we spent on it. No.. didnt think so.

I understand what you're saying but probably wouldn't describe it as a feature!

Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.

Is it not concerning that so many experienced Steam users are telling you its a bad decision?

Sorry, I wanted to stay out of these threads after Eugene went on an utter tirade of twisting my posts into something that only he could read in them, but;

David - Sega is clueless. Steam is not a good anti-piracy measure. It just isn't. There's obviously other motives behind this (how do they not get more money from Steam when it sells games for higher prices than a lot of other retailers??) that they don't want to disclose, and, as we know from the past with Sega, they are not at all honest with their customers.

Steam is not 100% reliable, no piece of software is. So removing the ability to have an alternate method of playing is a) very poor customer service and b) a very questionable business decision.

This is the key, it is obvious we are being bullshitted. And it was obvious last year with the exclusive steam demo. I loved Sega when I was sega kid, but **** me they have become an absolute travesty of a company, and sadly it looks like SI are going the same way.

I understand what you're saying but probably wouldn't describe it as a feature!

Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.

I personally have a lot of games on Steam, but this year I had my steam account hacked. This left me unable to play any game(online or offline) for a period of nearly 2 weeks, cos there was some problem with the steam support. So I gained a copy(....).

I'm not happy that I did this but I was a member of a clan and couldn't afford to miss game time, IMO steam forced me to do this, and I sure as hell wasnt paying for another copy when I always buyFM on the day of release.

On the brighter side I havent had any problems with steam since and hopefully nor will I

If your PC/MAC has issues running Steam with FM then its not fit to run either. Any decent modern machine should be 4Gb plus , FFS you can get that for well under £100 now and it will improve the overall performance of your PC no end.

Sitting with an I3 + 4Gb on this one and at any one time FM uses no more than 1.5Gb , Steam with about 35Mb and thats on a 3+ years old machine.

That's not that point; Even though I've got 4GB of RAM on my computer I've disabled the Mac OS's dashboard, not because it uses up alot or memory, which it doesn't, but because I don't want to be obliged to waste it on something that I regard as being so pointless/unecessary.

Why am I, as a loyal customer, essentially being punished for the action of a pirate. If SI/SEGA, hell, the gaming industry, had any sense about them they would view these pirates as potential customers rather than a hindrance to their bottom-line.

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

The arguments are being articulated well IMO. For you to say its the same arguments being made over and over again as if that is a bad thing is a poor dismissal - the fact that the same arguments are being made should tell you that there is a consensus of opinion that SI should take notice of. Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.

Whether the decision was taken lightly or not is moot. SI have take the decision, and here on this thread you see the reaction to the decision. In the poll that you yourself closed, you also see the reaction to the decision.

Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them. Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.

Having spent good money on my PC, it is only correct that I should have control over what software is running on it. I will be actioning that control by not installing steam, FM2012 and any future releases on FM that rely on unrequested 3rd party software. Having played (having bought legitimately) every version since CM(1) this is not a decision I have taken lightly, but feel it is the right one (sic)

I understand what you're saying but probably wouldn't describe it as a feature!

Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.

your proud of fm2012, theres no doubt it is shaping up to be an immense game.I WAS very excited about it, however now i am being forced to use steam i wont be playing the game. Get in touch with the people at SI, sit down and have another discussion over the options for activation!

i dont think the concern is steam itself, you could removed steam and replace it with anything similar and the reaction would be the same. Steam is not intrusive or resource hungry they are just being used as excuses, people dont want to be told what they have to do, that is the big problem.

The arguments are being articulated well IMO. For you to say its the same arguments being made over and over again as if that is a bad thing is a poor dismissal - the fact that the same arguments are being made should tell you that there is a consensus of opinion that SI should take notice of. Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.

Whether the decision was taken lightly or not is moot. SI have take the decision, and here on this thread you see the reaction to the decision. In the poll that you yourself closed, you also see the reaction to the decision.

Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them. Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.

I personally have a lot of games on Steam, but this year I had my steam account hacked. This left me unable to play any game(online or offline) for a period of nearly 2 weeks, cos there was some problem with the steam support. So I gained a copy(....).

I'm not happy that I did this but I was a member of a clan and couldn't afford to miss game time, IMO steam forced me to do this, and I sure as hell wasnt paying for another copy when I always buyFM on the day of release.

On the brighter side I havent had any problems with steam since and hopefully nor will I

The arguments are being articulated well IMO. For you to say its the same arguments being made over and over again as if that is a bad thing is a poor dismissal - the fact that the same arguments are being made should tell you that there is a consensus of opinion that SI should take notice of. Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.

Whether the decision was taken lightly or not is moot. SI have take the decision, and here on this thread you see the reaction to the decision. In the poll that you yourself closed, you also see the reaction to the decision.

Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them. Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.

Having spent good money on my PC, it is only correct that I should have control over what software is running on it. I will be actioning that control by not installing steam, FM2012 and any future releases on FM that rely on unrequested 3rd party software. Having played (having bought legitimately) every version since CM(1) this is not a decision I have taken lightly, but feel it is the right one (sic)

i dont think the concern is steam itself, you could removed steam and replace it with anything similar and the reaction would be the same. Steam is not intrusive or resource hungry they are just being used as excuses, people dont want to be told what they have to do, that is the big problem.

You need to start reading the posts rather than making sweeping statements.

Certainly some would have reacted in the same manner whatever the choice was but lots of us have stated valid reasons why Steam is not a good choice.

Your response here just adds weight to what he put, even more so with you putting that stupid smiley in.

He compared our release of Football Manager 2012 with Steam to an illegal war which cost countless innocent people their lives and you're having a go at me for using a smiley? I think I'm done for the day.

Could not agree more. Already been shown in previous posts that steam hogs memory on certain machines. SI and Sega are rapidly losing the right of expecting the consumer to have faith in their decision making.

Also, frankly, your use of the grinning smiley suggests a smugness that is inappropriate on this thread when there is already a great deal of bad feeling towards SI.

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

He compared our release of Football Manager 2012 with Steam to an illegal war which cost countless innocent people their lives and you're having a go at me for using a smiley? I think I'm done for the day.

I wasn't referring to your dismissal of his comparison- more the bit quoted above.

Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress

Can you turn off the automatic updates? This may seem like a stupid question however there have been patches that have caused problems (i.e. the editor issue with patch 3 in 2011) plus I prefer NOT to have the data update. Having not used steam before can you choose which updates are applied?

Can you turn off the automatic updates? This may seem like a stupid question however there have been patches that have caused problems (i.e. the editor issue with patch 3 in 2011) plus I prefer NOT to have the data update. Having not used steam before can you choose which updates are applied?

Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them.

Are you seriously suggesting in your closing paragraph that despite everything that SI have done over the past 15 or 20 years, this one decision has destroyed everything you trusted them for? It has been stated many times that the people who made this decision have an awful lot of information that we don't, and that they are not allowed to release it. They have admitted that Steam has had a bad rep, but they feel that they have shown adequate improvement in recent years to now be a viable option.

Can we try it, and see what happens? If Steam proves itself to be the disaster and invasion of privacy that so many are predicting, then I'm sure they won't be used again.

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

Two seperate issues here:
1)Your decision, is a bad one.
2)'not very good anti-piracy measure', of course we will have to wait to find out.

You are asking us to wait and see if this method works, yet you are acting on the assumption that it will work, and there can be no alternatives with FM12. How can you take such an inflexible stance? What if it doesn't work? Will you not then change the method of authentification? No of course you won't, how silly you would look.

Unless it is a secret double-bluff, were you have every intention of losing the need for Steam in a future patch once you have achieved your goal of delaying piracy.

He compared our release of Football Manager 2012 with Steam to an illegal war which cost countless innocent people their lives and you're having a go at me for using a smiley? I think I'm done for the day.

I actually compared your remarks to Tony Blair's tendency to urge people to trust him. Iraq was of course the best example of that, the Bernie Ecclestone affair another, and so on. But if you want to put a different spin on that, as IMO many of the mods and staff have been doing with the arguments that oppose the activation policy, then you do that, but be prepared for others to judge you on that.

You need to start reading the posts rather than making sweeping statements.

Certainly some would have reacted in the same manner whatever the choice was but lots of us have stated valid reasons why Steam is not a good choice.

there really isnt anytihng wrong with steam, millions upon millions of people use it everyday without an issue, there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories. The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away, the fact that someon could even compare this to the Iraq war shows how overboard the reaction has become. There was an outcry when SI first used DRM, this is just another part of that, obviously i could be wrong but we will all see come the end of the year what the sales figues are like, so far a tiny proportion of a tiny part of FMer's are dead against it, i think that will be the general trend, and i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.

Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?

Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?

Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

so its not possible to activate it in germany? please make an official statement on this issue. normally i bought the game via gamersgate

there really isnt anytihng wrong with steam, millions upon millions of people use it everyday without an issue

Yes and I'm one of them as I have been for the last 5ish years.

there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories.

So you are aware that some people have issues with it. Even though this is a small minority its still too many when SI/Sega can offer no support.

The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away

The issue is the choice of restriction not the restriction itself.

i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.

You're probably correct and I can only speak for myself.

SI/Sega have chosen a Steam way or no way option and that leaves me with a choice of accept it or not buy FM for the first time in 20 odd years. If I accept it I am endorsing their choice and nothing will change in the future. The only option this leaves me is missing out on FM12.

Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

But at least previously anyone in Germany could get hold of a disc and run it from that disc. One look at the forums would show you that ther is a large community of players in Germany that can now no longer player the game. Congratulations you have managed to lose all sales in a complete country.

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.

I'm with you here.

Originally Posted by Wakers

Basically, this would have been better handled in a few ways;

1 and most important) Not relying on Steam 100%. As I said, no software is infallable, so not having an alternate option is..bizarre.

2) Announced before the features, and not before a lot of people have pre-ordered (which I think is the reason why Sega chose to announce this now and not earlier, tbh)

Sadly I agree with you on number 2, whether it is the case or not I feel like SI are having us on a bit, same with last year too.

Are you seriously suggesting in your closing paragraph that despite everything that SI have done over the past 15 or 20 years, this one decision has destroyed everything you trusted them for? It has been stated many times that the people who made this decision have an awful lot of information that we don't, and that they are not allowed to release it. They have admitted that Steam has had a bad rep, but they feel that they have shown adequate improvement in recent years to now be a viable option.

Can we try it, and see what happens? If Steam proves itself to be the disaster and invasion of privacy that so many are predicting, then I'm sure they won't be used again.

I never trust anyone who tells me that they are doing something, that impacts negatively on me, for my own good.

there really isnt anytihng wrong with steam, millions upon millions of people use it everyday without an issue, there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories. The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away, the fact that someon could even compare this to the Iraq war shows how overboard the reaction has become. There was an outcry when SI first used DRM, this is just another part of that, obviously i could be wrong but we will all see come the end of the year what the sales figues are like, so far a tiny proportion of a tiny part of FMer's are dead against it, i think that will be the general trend, and i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.

The fact that you think that is what he was doing shows you are not paying enough attention.

EDIT: and hedging your bet shows you have little confidence in this belief.

So you are aware that some people have issues with it. Even though this is a small minority its still too many when SI/Sega can offer no support.

SI have already said they will offer advice and support when they can, like they do with the various types of graphics card issues that pop up, infact have they not advise Nvidia on an issue with FM and a version of their graphics card to come up with a solution? Make no mistake SI will do everything they can to make sure ANYONE with an issue gets help, they always do.

Originally Posted by Cougar2010

You're probably correct and I can only speak for myself.

SI/Sega have chosen a Steam way or no way option and that leaves me with a choice of accept it or not buy FM for the first time in 20 odd years. If I accept it I am endorsing their choice and nothing will change in the future. The only option this leaves me is missing out on FM12.

Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.

but wait you already use steam yet you will have to decide if you want to use it for FM this time around??!
This is the future for gaming, like it or not, this is way things are going with every kind of media, thanks to pirates companies have taken this step, why are people so angry with the companies trying to protect their product rather than focusing their anger on the people who have pushed this kind of decision through?

so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

No I'm telling you I don't know and that all I know is that we're officially not allowed to sell the game in Germany for reasons out of our control.

Any ways around that in the past wouldn't have been officially supported or advertised by us here, we wouldn't be allowed to. I'm sure there are ways around the new system, we're not specifically trying to make it impossible for people not to be able to play the game in Germany, we're just not allowed to sell it there. I'm not sure (not that we can't I just don't know at this stage) whether we would be allowed to tell you ourselves what any ways around it are are as that could be seen in breach of the legal conditions of us not being able to sell the game in Germany.

Hopefully one of the guys from SEGA can clarify that though, as it's just not my area of expertise.

The fact that you think that is what he was doing shows you are not paying enough attention.

EDIT: and hedging your bet shows you have little confidence in this belief.

The fact it was mentioned in the same sentence is enough for me.
Time will tell on the second part, i cant be 100% confident because Marty left the time machine on the train tracks and the doc pissed off with the other one with his bit of stuff

No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.

Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.

Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.

This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...isation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).

Just wanted to bump this, one of the best posts in this thread, and one of the best I have seen on this forum. Si have forgottten that it is their current customer base that they need to put most effort into.

But at least previously anyone in Germany could get hold of a disc and run it from that disc. One look at the forums would show you that ther is a large community of players in Germany that can now no longer player the game. Congratulations you have managed to lose all sales in a complete country.

Offically they have no sales to lose & when the decision was reviewed all the data available would have shown no impact on the German market because it does not exist in statistical form.

It would be interesting to know how many people are impacted but it will always be impossible to answer.

Originally Posted by stevetranmere

so you are also telling many of our troops who live on BRITISH bases in germany that its tough s**t? you also wont be able to play fm12!

That is a grey area, for any single serviceman that lives on base they are actually residing on British soil so the legal issue does not apply but there may still be the technical issue of where the ISP they use is registered, the problem is that many of the married quarters are not within the boundries of the barracks so they are subject to German law.

That being siad the number of forces personnel & dependants based in Germany has been greatly reduce in preperation to the end of out presence there.

Also this should not turn into an anti-forces point, I only mentioned the armed forces in my first post on this subject as that is my link to living in Germany.

SI have already said they will offer advice and support when they can, like they do with the various types of graphics card issues that pop up, infact have they not advise Nvidia on an issue with FM and a version of their graphics card to come up with a solution? Make no mistake SI will do everything they can to make sure ANYONE with an issue gets help, they always do.

I'm sure they will, you know me, I have a lot of confidence in SI and stick up for them frequently.

Fact is though they have no more control over Steam than you or me and I don't have the same confidence in Steam

but wait you already use steam yet you will have to decide if you want to use it for FM this time around??!

Yes, personally given an option I was leaning to not using Steam this year due to problems in the past.

This is the future for gaming, like it or not, this is way things are going with every kind of media, thanks to pirates companies have taken this step, why are people so angry with the companies trying to protect their product rather than focusing their anger on the people who have pushed this kind of decision through?

Again you are focusing on the pirating aspect.

I really know very little about this but a simple google search will show you that Steam isn't the answer and from reading some pieces on the internet actually using Steam could make it easier for the pirates.

Pirating is bad, no arguments there but I'm yet to be convinced that Steam is the best answer.

I don't like the fact I have to install an operating system to play games. I don't want stupid 3rd party software on my machine

Straw man argument.

"I don't like the fact I have to buy a PC or a Mac to play the game, blah blah ti blah"

Using Steam to activate the game is NOT the same as the ill-fated Uniloc activation sytsem.
It forces you to have Steam actively running on your PC in order to play the game.
It forces you to connect to the internet to be able to activate your game.
It provides no more protection against piracy than having your DVD in the drive to start it.

One of the SEGA guys will have to answer that I'm afraid as I just don't know how it works there personally.

I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.

As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.

I have gifted non-censored versions of L4D2 and Borderlands to friends in Germany through Steam, because they could only buy the censored version in Germany. They have had no problems whatsoever downloading and playing the non-censored versions afterwards (even though those are illegal in Germany). I imagine Steam doing the same for anyone living in Germany, ie you cannot purchase the game from there, but you will have no problems receiving the game as a gift or activating a game key from abroad.

This would also makes sense I believe, as SEGA/SI are not allowed to sell the game in Germany, nobody has said anything about playing it

Also, everyone should stop making such a drama about having to use Steam, its a neat little program (been using it for years), and as far as anti-piracy measures are concerned, especially considering what some companies are trying to do these day (I am looking at you, Ubisoft), it's actually one of the most pleasant choices they could make. Also, you can't expect any modern day software developer to just rely on a simple disc-check to verify that a game is legal. If you really enjoy playing FM and want to support SI, then I think it's well worth the effort trying to get to know Steam a little better before swearing off the game all together. It's not like it's going to steal your car and run off with your wife.

Pro-consumer, anti-DRM. Never be satisfied with any answer. Dig until you drop.

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Originally Posted by CaptainPlanet

I don't like the fact I have to install an operating system to play games. I don't want stupid 3rd party software on my machine

It is a reasonable expectation of a user for an operating system to have a set of applications in order to make their life convenient, and this includes the capability to install other software.

It is not necessarily a reasonable expectation for a user to have Steam in order to run a game.

The game has run without Steam before, so unless something huge has changed in the codebase to tightly bind itself to Steam (which is a bad idea in itself), it is easy to see that Steam and Football Manager 2012 can still be decoupled. They don't need to be dependent on each other.

It's just user expectations. I have an OS and I expect it to allow me to browse the Internet, type some things, have a clock and calendar, and install applications. Sure, it restricts what I can do because I could in theory write my own OS in C and make it do more than Windows 7, but I trade that lack of functionality for convenience. It is just that for some, trading the lack of choice outweighs the supposed benefits forced Steam provides. And since it feels forced, it feels even worse.