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India’s Mars orbiter, Mangalyaan, has successfully inserted itself into Mars orbit. India becomes only the fourth space agency to successfully make it into Mars orbit, behind the Soviets, NASA, and the ESA. Remarkably, the entirety of India’s Mangalyaan mission cost just 4.5 billion rupees — or about $74 million. Compare this to NASA’s own MAVEN Mars orbiter, which has a total mission cost of around $672 million. This was also India’s first attempt to reach Mars orbit — historically, only Europe’s ESA made it to Mars on its first attempt.

The ISRO — India’s space agency — launched Mangalyaan (literally “Mars-craft”) back in November 2013. In the last 10 months, it has traveled about 680 million kilometers (422 million miles) in a heliocentric orbit around the Sun to finally reach Mars. Funnily enough, NASA’s own MAVEN orbiter reached Mars just a couple of days ago. Both spacecraft used a Hohmann transfer orbit — a special trajectory to Mars that is only available every 26 months — to get there with minimal fuel consumption.

An ISRO PSLV launch — the same rocket that launched Mangalyaan into space in November 2013

Other than the fact that the ISRO succeeded on its first attempt, the most notable aspect of the Mangalyaan mission is its extremely low cost. The orbiter itself cost around $25 million, with the rest of the $74 million budget being consumed by launch services and upgraded ground stations to support the mission (but these upgrades will also aid future ISRO missions, too). Compare this to NASA’s MAVEN orbiter, which cost somewhere in the region of $485 million to develop — and around $187 million for the launch into space and further ground support. This means ISRO’s mission cost around 11% of NASA’s mission.

Obviously a direct comparison isn’t really fair. While Mangalyaan is a tech demo with just 15 kilos (33 lbs) of scientific instruments on board, MAVEN is a full-fat NASA satellite with 65 kilos of scientific goodness. MAVEN itself is a much larger device, too — it had a launch mass of over 2.5 tonnes, while Mangalyaan was only just over a tonne — meaning it needed a much larger (and more expensive) launch vehicle to get into space.

ISRO mission control, following the Mangalyaan mission

Still, even when all of these factors are considered, it’s clear that ISRO’s Mangalyaan is much, much cheaper than anything else that has ever made it to Mars. NASA can certainly cut its costs a little with cheaper, commercial space launchers from the likes of SpaceX — but ultimately, bureaucracy and other forms of red tape are always going to inflate total costs. If you think of India’s ISRO as a nimble Silicon Valley startup, NASA is like Microsoft: A big and lumbering giant that wants to play with the kids — SpaceX — but is ultimately still an agency of the US government with some 20,000 employees.

Moving forward, Mangalyaan will analyze both the atmosphere and surface of Mars with its five scientific instruments. As this was merely a tech demo — to see if India could actually get a spacecraft successfully into Martian orbit — there will now presumably be a bigger and better spacecraft developed in the next few years. India will be fairly chuffed that it got to Mars before China — there’s a fair bit of competition going on between the two countries, and China’s own Yinghuo-1 Mars orbiter failed to get there — but China is probably still ahead overall, considering it has put a human into space; India currently has no definite plans for manned space missions.

Tagged In

I find the cost comparison a bit lacking in fairness, even do you comment on it two, the more complex a system is, the more it cost to build and test, and those cost do not add up linear.

Tho even tho the indies did not sent up a Sputnik like probe, properly compared to the NASA probe it iss not much more useful.

Still a other 10y and the hole world will have passed by NASA, the way there budget is going.

Marc Guillot

It would be good to compare the scientific equipment they both carry and the targets of each mission.

massau

i think nasa has a much more specialised custom designed equipment and a much better communication system. but i also guess they should make there whole system more efficient like space X and maybe launch multiple smaller satellites then a single 1 big one.

SpaceX is a launch services company. A lot of companies launch multitudes of small satellites, the US record being set by Orbital Sciences and the world record number of satellites launched on a single mission being by the Russian dnepr rocket. Small satellites work well in Earth orbit, but depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with an interplanetary probe, it is better for a single probe per launch. Multitudes of satellites launched to Mars on a single mission would all have to slow themselves down into orbit each requiring their own fuel and engines to slow down, so a single probe works best and will cut down the ultimate cost and amount of delta-v required for the mission. Also, more instruments you put on the probe, the more R&D needs to be done to scale down the size and weight of the instruments in order to meet the required delta-v for your launch profile. New Horizons heading to Pluto for a whopping $650 million was developed small and light weight but has some sweet instruments. But launching dozens of probes to Pluto would have been ridiculous and more expensive in the long run. Finally, it’s also economics here. Engineers in India are paid less than engineers in America. That’s why there is or had been a major brain drain from India to the US for quite some time.

fdsafdsf

It’s also not fair to compare them, because NASA had to develop everything on their own, while India’s program was not a first.

Marc Guillot

Kudos to India. A quarter of scientific instruments weight on orbit for a tenth of the cost versus the American probe is a very nice success.

I’m happy to see more parties on the space race.

gina maria

They also don’t have to invent the research and technology from scratch, and can buy off the shelf parts that NASA has invented. That’s where the real cost is.

rahuldey85

No. Parts are not available for sale. Everything needs to be made independently. India had sanctions against technology transfer as well put in place by the US. I don’t know whether it’s still in place or not. The PSLV used by India to launch the mars orbiter is totally indigenous.

anders bjørnø

Parts might not be for sale, but the information is out there. Anyone can buy a journal from a scientific resource site.

rahuldey85

No most information is classified. Yes the science behind a rocket launching is pretty simple. Conservation of momentum/Newton’s third law and you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand how a rocket goes up. Anyone can’t buy design diagrams, exact values of different parameters that need to be fine tuned to launch a rocket. Otherwise some prosperous nation like Japan or England would have done it before us(India). We are the third country after the US and Russia to have a probe like this. ESA doesn’t count as Europe is not a country. I don’t know why you people enjoy putting us down. Why the jealousy? You are already ahead of us technologically. See I’m admiting it and there is no shame in it. I don’t expect much from you guys anyways. Your a country of people believing that the earth is 6000 years old and where people like Bill O Reily are actually taken seriously.

Dunbar

No one’s “putting you down”, India’s achievement is impressive. Only a few nations have accomplished the same feat.

The point people are taking issue with is the cost; with the implication India’s achievement is somehow NASA’s failure.

rahuldey85

If you read my other posts you will see that I agree comparing NASA to ISRO is futile. I was contesting your claim that “Anyone can buy a journal from a scientific resource site”. That is totally untrue.

whomedoyou

It wasn’t Dunbar who said that ‘you can buy a journal…’ in the first place.

Bowserb

Actually, only 2 nations–U.S. and the USSR–have done it. The ESA is not a single nation. India’s achievement is not NASA’s failure. The point is that, like most mature government agencies, NASA and it’s hundreds of contractors may have become fat and complacent…at our expense.

You don’t have a problem when India buys your weapons. Where is the concern for poor then?

Ankit Gupta

Ohh brother, this is what helped India gain more projects of launching satellites of other countries the year they launched MOM. By the way if you know the proverb “It is better to give people work, than to feed them one time, and let them starve for whole life”. So we are basically taking the world business in our hands and making profit to the people who give us work. We are economical, we are logically and technically better, we know how to accomplish big tasks with less resources and less money. So, we are winning the races to get new contracts. NASA should learn from India. Ok, there is no point to send space junk to Mars then why MAVEN (excessively costly), and why so many other programs of NASA are wasting money to send junk to MARS?

Nova

I don’t know whether You know this or not………..
1. MOON…
India sent a probe to Moon. INDIA DID NOT LAND ON MOON……It went near
to Moon….. in 2008…… INDIA DISCOVERED WATER ON MOON……

2. Now Imagine What India can do if it lands on Moon.

Syed Asad Ali Rizvi

3. “Indian satellite found floating in Atlantic Ocean”, BBC stated right after India claimed to find water on moon.

whomedoyou

Haha – good attempt at stealing a news story by Pakistani’s news media six months after it was released. You guys will forever only attempt to follow in India’s steps only – because you’re so stuck in the past.

Nova

Secondly, India sent the Probe to Mars…..But NASA, ESA, satellites
orbit around MARS – like from North Pole to South Pole….. VERTICALLY

But INDIA Satellite orbits, like Equator — HORIZONTALLY…
India sent 5 small equipment….. hahahahha. Do You believe that?????
Inda
says one thing, show another, something different is there inside, and
the Out come is completely Different… End result is something
else…..

MOM probe will last for 6 months.
MOM Probe will last for 1 year
MOM probe will last, but can’t tell because there is Eclipse.
MOM Probe will last for 2 Years, because we have more fuel.
MOM probe will last for 38 Years, because we have spent very less fuel.

hahahaha ….And the story Continues……. NO ONE KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS IT WILL WORK…..

SO Just apply this same logic, to the 5 Different Scientific Equipments onboard MOM…..
Please USE YOUR CREATIVITY IN ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTION.

Asdf Ghjk

First of all, it is a tremendous achievement.
But!
Do not downplay the effect of available knowledge and information.
Sure, a lot of information is classified. But the ISRO had access for foreign rocket technology for decades. Lots and lots of knowledge existed from all the previous missions.
Hell, did you know that deep into Saturn V development, NASA didn’t even plan on doing a lunar orbit rendezvous? All of these things had to be figured out. In 1950’s and 1960′ they only existed in some people’s imagination. In 2014, we know which things work and which don’t, and what is a good way of doing them. So yeah, technically ISRO really is the firs agency to do it right the first time, but don’t compare NASA or the Soviets in 1960’s with ISRO in 2014.

rahuldey85

ESA does count as a space agency. I was talking about a space agency of a single country not a collaboration of countries. Your quoting me out of context.
Can you give me an example of existing knowledge about specifics of rocket technology that is public. Can I Google and get information about how to build an orbiter around some other celestial object. Is is all about the details when it comes to rockets and space because the difference between a failed mission and a successful one is in many cases an error in one particular parameter among the many parameters.
When did i compare the Soviets of 1960 or NASA to ISRO ?

Asdf Ghjk

“Can you give me an example of existing knowledge about specifics of rocket technology that is public. Can I Google and get information about how to build an orbiter around some other celestial object.”

Of course you can’t just google it. But it doesn’t mean rocket science is a big mystery to experts in 2014, after more than 7 decades of work in this area. NASA and the Soviets benefited a lot from German V-2s, which are today regarded as primitive ballistic rockets (even ISIS possesses a single Scud missile, which is, in terms of technology, decades ahead of the V-2 that helped the US and USSR build their first ICBMs and later, orbital launchers). Some Indian orbital launchers used Russian produced upper stages, and it’s a lot easier to build an engine when you have a working one to look at, as opposed to building something that has never existed before. Orbital mechanics is part of that rocket science, too, but in 2014 this field of science is more than 60 years old, with dozens of real examples on how to do it and how not to do it. And satellite and space probe design is not something completely top secret; again, decades of real examples. There’s lots of private companies producing commercial satellites and rocket tech in general. What I’m trying to say is this isn’t a super top secret mystery. Just like Iran and North Korea have been more or less successful in developing nuclear technology (either weaponised or non-weaponized) despite international efforts on the contrary, without the need of a huge government program like the Manhattan project in 1940s. Nuclear tech is not exactly open source but is still much easier to do today than it was 70 years ago.

rahuldey85

This will be my last reply. You are drawing comparisons here which I have been refraining from doing simply because it will be like comparing apples to oranges. NASA has done pioneering work and India is catching up. When did I say anything to the contrary? Read my other comments as well. My point is that India is the only country after a former super power(Russia) and a current super power(the US) and the continent of Europe to have a succesful Mars mission. So even though it’s not as tough as it was in the 1960s it’s still not easy. The reason we are arguing for so long is because we are not arguing on the same issue. What I’m saying is that a Mars mission in 2014 is not easy and “Anyone can buy a journal from a scientific resource site” is just not true. What your saying that a Mars mission in 2014 is easier than pioneering work done by NASA and the Soviets and I agree to that as well.

Asdf Ghjk

Then we misunderstood each other. I completely agree with this. And I am very happy to see new players entering the stage. China, India, and now some others as well (United Arab Emirates also plan on doing a Mars mission along with some others). We are finally seeing the continuation of that space exploration spirit that started in 1960s and ended abruptly just a decate after.

Bowserb

ESA is not a single nation. Putting them on the list with the U.S., USSR/Russia, and now India, is like comparing Airbus to Boeing or comparing an SEC All Stars football team to that of the University of Texas.

Gath Gealaich

“No most information is classified. Yes the science behind a rocket launching is pretty simple. Conservation of momentum/Newton’s third law and you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand how a rocket goes up. Anyone can’t buy design diagrams, exact values of different parameters that need to be fine tuned to launch a rocket.”

Actually, *rocketry as such* is pretty much textbook material. You can buy a textbook on *anything* in space technology. Orbital guidance? There’s a textbook for that. Fuel chemistry? There’s textbook for that. Combustion? There’s a textbook for that. Electrical rocket engines? All in textbooks. I’m really not sure what you mean by “classified”. We’re not talking nuclear warheads here.

Interestingly, even MIT engineers who designed Apollo guidance programs learned orbital mechanics with application to space probes and satellites from a textbook on that subject that had already been published in 1962 or something like that. I found that amazing when I discovered that.

Many Americans do believe God created the world 6000 years ago. But most Indians believe that there are hundreds of Gods and Goddesses, many with animal heads. Who exactly are the more backward and superstitious?

Michael Deierhoi

What is the point of such comparisons?? Why do you feel the need to discredit India? That
Is a total apples to oranges comparison which serves no purpose.

Ankit Gupta

Belief is not science, proving it is. Neither American can prove God created the universe, and now we can’t show you the Gods we believe in. So, not a topic of discussion.

whomedoyou

its not just a god there is a trinity – so yeah 1 god and at least 2 demi-gods and several angels. thats what the indian gods are – demi-gods.
though having 1, 3 or several gods doesn’t make one less or more superstitious – they’re all equally lost.

phil

So lets see. Rawanda, Uganda…England…Germany…can buy the plan of the table….walk to Circuit City…and launch a Mars mission. Wow. Your village was searching for its idiot. Go back.

Dunbar

The technology for space missions has become orders of magnitude cheaper, thanks to the commercialisation of high tech products. Electronics for deep space missions can indeed be bought “off the shelf”. They no longer require massive investment in R&D. This is simple fact.

Rockets are another issue, especially multi-staged rockets. These are tricky, even countries with seasoned rocket scientists and engineers at the helm experience a high rate of catastrophic failure.

England and Germany could indeed launch a Mars mission, if there was the political will. In fact, academic institutions in the UK did just that, unfortunately their rover was lost somewhere on the Martian surface.

Rwanda and Uganda aren’t really in a position to instigate a space industry, they lack the skills and knowledge base, but most importantly: the industrial capacity, for such a project.

whomedoyou

I suppose that should also mean that a Germany, Spain, Canada or Australia should be able to do this on their own.

babaibhat

There is a strict ban on sharing any kind of space and missile technology.

All of them are indigenous parts and built from scratch

gokul surendran

wow, look at that. a country does something reasonably good and the majority here wish to say “nah, anybody could have done that,shh now”. followed by assumptions and claims. wonderfull.

Nova

I don’t know whether You know this or not………..
1. MOON… India sent a probe to Moon. INDIA DID NOT LAND ON MOON……It went near to Moon….. in 2008…… INDIA DISCOVERED WATER ON MOON……

2. Now Imagine What India can do if it lands on Moon.

Nova

Secondly, India sent the Probe to Mars…..But NASA, ESA, satellites orbit around MARS – like from North Pole to South Pole….. VERTICALLY

But INDIA Satellite orbits, like Equator — HORIZONTALLY…
India sent 5 small equipment….. hahahahha. Do You believe that?????
Inda says one thing, show another, something different is there inside, and the Out come is completely Different… End result is something else…..

MOM probe will last for 6 months.
MOM Probe will last for 1 year
MOM probe will last, but can’t tell because there is Eclipse.
MOM Probe will last for 2 Years, because we have more fuel.
MOM probe will last for 38 Years, because we have spent very less fuel.

hahahaha ….And the story Continues……. NO ONE KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS IT WILL WORK…..

SO Just apply this same logic, to the 5 Different Scientific Equipments onboard MOM…..
Please USE YOUR CREATIVITY IN ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTION.

rahuldey85

I think to compare NASA to ISRO is just unfair to both NASA and ISRO as NASA technology is at the least 40 years ahead of ISRO. NASA has the space shuttle missions, voyager, cassini missions to it’s credit. A mars orbiter mission to NASA is what a “Hello world programmer” is to a seasoned programmer. On the other hand ISRO is the space agency of a developing nation and has a budget that is a fraction of NASA’s budget and the ingenuity shown by ISRO engineers is commendable.

havor

Don’t be naive, at best NASA, Russia and ESA are 10 years ahead, China maybe 5 years.

India is not only a poor backwards country, India has two faces, the poor workers and the educated people, that go to university’s that can compete with there most western counterparts.

And unlike the engineers at NASA, these guys still have to proof them self, and that gives them a drive to work, just like the engineers on the Apollo project.

It took about 10 years to build Apollo, and then they ware still using Slide rules for there calculations, these guys can use computers, and learn from the people before them.

And above all, they get to learn REAL science over there, and not have to learn pseudoscience, from idiots that think Creationism is real science. o_0

sketchbag

But all interconnected society (from the silicon that do the computing to the materials for lightweight strength are built on the technology of human civilization. On the shoulders of giants one might say. Getting to mars in 2014 is still awesome and indias brilliant engineers and technicians deserve credit for sure. But its not like they started from horses in the information age :)

Asdf Ghjk

Obviously he didn’t mean the basic technology itself is 40 years behind. They obviously use modern microprocessors and materials and engines. What he meant is they are about 40 years behind in achievements, but of course they probably won’t need another 40 years to, say, drop a SUV sized rover on the Martian surface or land men on the moon.

anders bjørnø

How can anyone take you seriously when you say you’re educated and then use words and grammar like “and then they ware still using Slide rules for there calculations” or “And unlike the engineers at NASA, these guys still have to proof them self”

havor

So you are saying just because i have dysorthografie a spelling handicap wile writing, not reading, i have no right to a opinion?

Or ware you just to stupid to read over the spelling mistakes, and understand what i was saying?

Personal side note: i dont really like languish Nazis, they think they are smarter then people with a spellings handicap, but i have noticed that almost all of them have the mentality of a drone public servant, that have to hurt others, so to make them feel like they are worth something more, then they are.

Mr_Blastman

If you truly had a spelling handicap you’d notice you keep spelling the same words over and over again wrongly the same way. And if you are truly smart, you’d realize you can easily correct this handicap rather than relying on it as a “crutch” to try and prove your point. Points like how life spontaneously sprang into existence. Oh, sorry, you poke fun of creationists yet the stupid atheists believe the same thing, just a different way.

Hilarious.

As Carl Sagan said, Atheism is quite stupid. And he was an agnostic–the true intellectual position. Oh, sorry, I assumed you’re an atheist. But, then again, most of the time it is those atheists that “know everything” (because they must, really, to make such bold claims) that go out of their way to trash anyone and everyone with LGBT zealots that might believe something other than them.

Oh well. Have fun living under a rock. And fix your spelling.

Oh, and please send NASA some more money, congress. Half a penny guys, that’s all it will take. Half a frikken penny. :-|

havor

– And if you are truly smart, you’d realize you can easily correct
this handicap rather than relying on it as a “crutch” to try and prove
your point. –

I pity your narrow mindedness, if you and all other
prejudging “people” would read up on what dyslexia and its sub forms
are, you would know that that having it means you have problems how to
recognize how words are ordered, and/or remember how to put them
together.

And that instead of feeling sorry and frustrated for
and about my self, for the lack and the ability to be able to do good
spelling, i learned my self reading a lot of books on the subject, and
that practice can help improve my spelling a bit, it cant cure the
handicap, peoples brains with dyslexia are just wired different.http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/09/23/dyslexic_dyspraxic_no_probs_says_gchq/

And
what amazed me more was that even teachers ware to lazy to read those
books and study up on it, instead even some of them tried to make me
feel stupid.

So i cant really blame you for your ignorance on that.

– Oh, sorry, I assumed you’re an atheist. –

You
assumed correctly, there is little doubt in my mind that there is no
higher being (but not, no doubt), and tho the lack of evidence dose not
rule out the existence of higher being, however real scientific proof,
rules a 100% out that the pseudoscience, of Genesis based creationism as
real science.

Evolutionary creationism is debatable with me,
even do i dont believe in it my self, my wife a deputy director of a
local branch of the National Institute here in Norway is a believer, i
personally dont lock the door on it, but still, more or less, life after
dead have to really get me in door on that one.

– As Carl Sagan said, Atheism is quite stupid. –

I
have to fully agree with him on that one, but he also truly believed
in evolution, and therefor rejected Genesis based creationism!

Thank you, but i wonder who is truly living under a rock, you or me, and sorry the spelling is un-fixable problem for me.

And
even if it ware, i have the time or the lust to perfect my 4th
important languish, As now Norwegian is the most important, as i live
and work there mostly, followed with German as i work for a German
company, 3th would be my Dutch native languish ware i still have a lot
of friends and family living there.

And most people or not suds a
pain as you and anders bjørnø, most people can just read over the
spelling mistakes, and what is said more important the how it was said!

Mr_Blastman

Evolution and abiogenesis are two completely different matters. Evolution is true. It happens all around us. You need only look at not even fruit flies but the common virus or bacteria to see evolution at work. There is absolutely no doubt that the process is real and this has been proven time and time again.

Abiogenesis, however, is as much a theory as faith in God creating the universe in the blink of an eye. We have no proof for either and until we do, the best we can accept is either a position of neutrality on the subject or to place our hopes/dreams/whatever in one theory or the other. And as I see it, from that perspective, taking a stand on either side of _that_ particular isle is quite alright, no matter which side you choose. Just be happy with whatever choice it is and be willing to accept that at some point in the future it may or may not be proven wrong, whatever that might be.

We tiny humans must accept that perhaps this theory of abiogenesis is incorrect. Likewise, we must also accept that Genesis in the Bible must be interpreted rather than taken literally. What most people fail to realize is that the book was written in a context that was understandable and comprehendible by the living population at the time. What good would it be to try and explain string theory to someone barely capable of grasping rudimentary arithmetic?

You’d be banging your head against a wall. Carl Sagan himself illustrates this concept brilliantly with his exposition of the sciences in laymans terms that the common man can attempt to understand and apply.

So what if, for a moment, instead of life springing from nothing, it was put into place through rocks being carried to Earth from other worlds–which in turn was put into place by some other advanced civilization beyond our wildest comprehension? The processes within are wonderfully complex with rather simplistic biochemical mechanisms to pass the tests of time. Who are we to know any absolutes? We can’t. We’ve only been here a few hundred thousand years. If we don’t even understand what “nothing” is, (i.e. spacetime itself), we are in no way in a position to make statements of surety. And this, this is why I am thankful that we have science and the intellectual capacity to comprehend it. Through science we shall discover. And those discoveries hopefully lead to even more because our theories are proven wrong more often and not. That’s the beauty of how the system works.

Thus who knows how it all started. Your guess is as good as mine. We’ll leave the details up to science and for the time being I’ll have my faith, you’ll have your beliefs and we’ll all coexist until the next breathtaking brilliant discovery is made. I can’t wait to see what comes next from someone completely unknown.

havor

Why reply in this way, what you want from me?

First you insult me three times.

– For being to lazy and not willing to learn to correct spell.
– For being closed minded.
– For living under a rock.

And now you wane be half a evangelist, and half debate the meaning of life with me?

I am sorry but i am not interested any more, and i do not really wane or feel the need to debate biopoiesis vs creationism with you, if i want that, then my wife and many of the scientist that work with here, are imho much better debate partners ware i can learn something from.

Gath Gealaich

“It took about 10 years to build Apollo, and then they ware still using Slide rules for there calculations”

This is a common misconception. NASA very quickly became computer-dependent. The Apollo Guidance Computer was perhaps the first serially-built computer with digital ICs, and the whole mission was supported from the ground by five large IBM mainframes in a redundant setup. Of course engineers were using slide rules for many things, but without computers, the whole thing would have been impossible.

havor

I was saying the Apollo rocket was build with slide rules, nearly all calculation ware done by hand.
I was clearly talking about the design of the rocket.

And the onboard Apollo Guidance Computer was not even as powerful as the CPU that was running my old Nokia 2110 dumb phone.
As it was a task dedicated computer, and not a general use computer that could only be used for guidance.

And the IBM mainframes ware about as powerful as a Commodore 64

Gath Gealaich

I’m not quite sure that no computers were involved in designing the launch vehicles. For example, the IMS database system by IBM was developed *specifically* for the management of Apollo’s BOM (including the boosters).

“And the IBM mainframes ware about as powerful as a Commodore 64”

Heh. The IBM 7094-II had something like 0.3 MFLOPS, you’d never get anything even remotely close from a Commodore 64 (you could hope for a few kFLOPS at most – and maybe I’m still very optimistic here!). And the 7094-II machines were replaced with S/360 Model 75J machines fairly quickly, those were even faster.

What?

So the major factors why it was cheaper.

1. Lighter and smaller
2. Only a Demo
3. No massive amount of scientific equipment
4. Cheaper labor in India
5. Not the first in development

Why(I think) it will cost nearly the same as the US when they launch a real mission

1. With increasing weight, energy requirement grow exponentially. Costs will as well for various reasons.
2. It’s going to have to do more than just being a demo. Complexity increases costs. More than just the equipment itself but also the labor, maintenance and support needed. More things to go wrong.
3. It will carry a lot more scientific equipment. More weight, more things to go wrong, more energy needed, more development needed, more people needed, more MONEY.
4. They will need to hire more people as a real Mars mission is much more complex.
5. The US took the first bite and also incurred higher costs. While India may not use the same exact technology, a lot of “lessons learned” by the US will save India a lot of money. Yes, the scientific community does seminars, conferences, etc… all the time discussing these things. You may not steal someone’s ideas or technology, but you can certainly learn from their mistakes saving you time, resources and MONEY.

rahuldey85

MAVEN is not the US’s first mission to mars so your 5th point about not having the chance to learn from mistakes is not entirely correct. Also ISRO used a LAM(liquid apogee motor) instead of a Centaur engine to thrust itself into the heliocentric orbit around the sun. The Centaur is much bigger and uses much more fuel(about exactly double) than a LAM and that is what is the main reason for the weight difference not the amount of sensors and equipment on board.

What?

I think you’re just plain nitpicking here. Maven is not the US’s first mission but the US is certainly the first to touch Mars.

Like I’ve already mention, they don’t use the same technology. However, the projects are identical for the most part because most of the effort is getting to Mars. You would be crazy to think that India have learned nothing from the US when their scientists/engineers/project managers went to the same conferences and seminars. I never said they will copy the tech but they definitely won’t make the same mistakes the US made.
One bad mistake can easily blow your budget and double it.

gokul surendran

um so they learned from mistakes, and made sure they didn’t make any. that’s easy ain’t it.

SURAJ MAURYA

man look up in the engineers/scientists list working in nasa at prominent places, you will find that most of them are Indians.

massau

engine weight isn’t the only important thing, they have a lot more specs then only weight. trust, trust/weight ratio , ISP all these combined shows you which is the best engine.

i guess if we want a real cost comparison then we should look at costs- wages or just the resource cost.

rahuldey85

Not just engine. Engine and fuel. But yes your right. Labor cost is fairly low in India.

Camren Hansen

Dude, you’re ridiculously wrong here. MAVEN was 65 KG while MOM is 15 kg. That doesn’t include the Centaur upper stage genius.
MAVEN also uses 1135 watts while MOM uses 840 watts. MOM is a demonstration flight, and good on India for doing that. But MAVEN was designed with more instruments and required more R&D than MOM did.

rahuldey85

Do you think that the 50KG difference in weight is the reason why the ISRO mission is cheaper than the NASA one? Do you know that the MAVEN carried 1645KG of fuel while the ISRO mission carried 852KG of fuel. What is 50KGs to a difference in weight carried? Also I know NASA helped out with the deep space tracking. ISRO has setup one DSN center at Bangalore and that is included in the cost of the mission. These centers can be reused in the future and the actual cost of the orbiter is much less at around $24 million. NASA has a DSN network in place already. They didn’t need to build new stations so your edit is useless. Why are you so unnecesarily aggressive and what’s your point anyways? And yes I’m Indian.

Camren Hansen

I don’t care if your Indian. I think it’s great what ISRO is doing. What’s ridiculous is arguing over the costs of two different missions. Apples to oranges. MOM looped around the earth eventually swinging out to a heliocentric transfer orbit while MAVEN went straight there. Plus, MAVEN will be dipping it’s periapse to a point where the upper and lower atmosphere of Mars meets allowing for studies there. This obviously requires fuel on the rocket and more delta-V considering this is more weight. MOM will not be doing that since it is a basic demonstration flight for ISRO, as they stated. They were more interested in seeing if they could do it. But as I stated, 65 kg is the payload weight, that doesn’t include the fuel. So, like I said earlier, MAVEN is more beefy, requiring more R&D, more delta-V (in otherwords, a more powerful rocket) and more risky requiring dips in its orbit during the mission. It requires more power to run, which you never mentioned, and it is overall a more costly program since its mission is completely different from MOM’s. If we were launching two MAVENs, one built in India and one built in the US, then could we look at the cost of the build. But most of it will be in the difference engineers and contractors are paid in the US. Until then, it’s apples to oranges and this discussion is moot and pointless.

ranga

It seems ISRO has paid NASA $11 million for DSN usage.

Camren Hansen

Glad to hear it. Although I believe they should have been allowed to use it for free as it’s a scientific endeavor. But it’s probably more to cover the cost of maintenance than anything. Either way, it’s ridiculous to compare the price of the two probes unless they were both performing the same mission and had the same instruments but built and launched in India and the US respectively. I believe India is doing great in the space industry, but comparing two scientific endeavors is absolutely ridiculous.

Osymandias

Salary Matters: Indian space research center, or whatever they call it, is an organization of Indian government, which means, the employee’s salary can’t exceed INR 150000 a month(about 62 INR=1 USD), since it is the salary of the president of India. Most group A officers(highest grade job under indian government) will be having a median salary of about INR 90000 a month and it decreases sharply as group decreases, with group D (lowest grade under Indian government like sweeper, peon etc) employee gets about INR 15000 a month. Salary is even less(some time almost by half) when the employee is a contractual/temporary employee.

Now compare that with the US government salary structure, you will realize how much money they have saved only on that!

Osymandias

India has learned everything from west, especially from USA and UK. Check the employee list of any big university, scientific organization etc in India, you will see most of the high positioned official got their eduction(like master degree, doctoral degree etc) from USA or UK.

In India, all standard text book of medicine and related science is mostly from USA.

Sunil

belive me bro its coming back

Osymandias

What is coming back and from where?

If salary structure of like those comparable with the US government, it is simply awesome then!

But if you are believing in that age old holy thing(or Cow sh*t in India) that ‘Everything that modern(or western) science is inventing now like nuke, tv, space ship etc , India(yep, india not china or any other oriental country who were comparable in those ancient times) invented them even before figuring out how to make or use toilet papers(let alone papers to write)’ then I’m sorry to inform you that I learned how to keep a patient with massive myocardial infraction(or heart attack as layman term) alive from ‘silly’ western books like ‘Harrison’s principles of internal medicine’ and not from ‘great’ books like Charaka Samhita or Sushruta Samhita.

Also If someday I suffer from that thing myself, I will never allow someone who studied those great book to manage me!

Bharath Kishore Aluri

Troy was just a figment of imagination before Heinrich Schliemann excavated it.

For the record, Indians do not use toilet papers much today as we have more easily renewable resource of water.

Did I forget to mention that the so called great Americans of USA are actually invaders who almost wiped out the natives and their civilization?

Osymandias

EXACTLY!

I can hardly imagine the nature of riot and political movement that will happen in india, if bollywood(Hollywood got its name copied from it, right?) makes movies equivalent to ‘american pie’ in context with indian culture with the name Indian in it instead of those lamenting torture movies!

And homer did claim(If he actually existed), that certain gods helped Brad Pitt (or Achilles?) and other heros in battle but he never mentioned that greeks had/used flying machines, nukes etc in the battle. and more importantly, I am yet to see one(yes just one) modern greek citizen just claims, let alone makes it agenda like ‘we had it all before or all western(or modern) science is copied from our past.’

Accurately depicts(even more so than V. S. Naipaul’s travelogue) the attitude of Indians(and their governments) toward history, archeology and more importantly their common sense.

But who knows, one day they may really dig something up in India,only to find that the reason there is almost no fossil fuel in india now because they drove those massive SUVs/Gas guzzlers( with fake/bribed driving license like modern days?) in ancient time consuming all of them!

Europeans partially wiped out natives but real cruelty was they failed to issue them a certificate stating their birth caste and creed and reserved some 22% of seats of all government job, entrance examination etc for them!

Sunil

And your some other post saying about indian government excavation , Know also that Indian gov recently dug up the wealthiest temple in the world ..so its logical to dig this up too ,…you never knew did you ?? please search Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple

Osymandias

When exactly they dig it up? In the center of the capital of kerala? Strange! How many building they demolished?

Sunil

it was an underground and it was called secret chambers , what makes you sure it did not need digging , probably not but i made my point , ” its sensible to dig for gold “

Sunil

OK
I got it you dont like Indian doctors ,
Salary compensation family med : avg 150000 and MD general medicine india : 25-50000 dollars , i agree quiet behind , but i said it will catch up soon .. there is something called equilibrium , its bound to happen because Indian biggest plus is its attitude to knowledge and studies , i am quiet sure in India doctors are 10 times more respected than in US , So much is enough to sacrifice some money .
Few questions bro
1.Which ethinicity is max NASA scientist from ?
2.Which ethinicity is max US doctors from ?
3.How about Robbins Pathology ( have ever found a better path book ) , Ist that kumar who is sole author now ?
4. USMLE First Aid , Every single US students Bible for USMLE , Ist that written by Vikas bhushan ?
more questions later , but please do understand , ” soon its going to be back ” …what was india back means ? it means 30 percent of whole world economy in future ” i can bet on it “

Osymandias

The Only problem is that it does not prove anything. An apple tree will always produce apple regardless what you wish. Nor you can hold air with your hands. I will be perfectly retired after 30 years from now, so I do not much care what will be happening then!

Which MD general medicine in india is making 150000 in government service without doing private practice? And in private practice why they write medicine with company name instead of generic(You will be taking ‘Pen 40’ instead of Pentaprazole) and receives things like ‘Ford Endeavor’ from respective drug company?

Why almost everyday there is a strike in government hospital because a doctor is beaten up by patients? One of my colleague got a permanent disfigurement of his face from a patient party despite not knowing anything regarding a case during our internship year in a government hospital of National capital territory of india, and that’s enough respect I guess. And how much is worth sacrificing for it?

Some contributors of all US medical books are of invariably of indian origin and many of them did their bachelor’s degree from India,(but the real training, post graduate or doctorate degree they got from USA) and specifically with First Aid, there is another one called Tao t Lee in usmle first aid book, and he looks like chinese, and Dr V Bhusan was born in USA, so that should be enough to make him american.

And First Aid is not the bible for USMLE(nor any other single book), but it helps passing it, by aiding cramming a lot of data in a short time.

But it does not matter much, which country beside india got such a massive population and such miserable living conditions? So no matter where you go, there will be more indians immigrants there(most are doing lowly works) than any other country.

I wonder how many icelanders are there in NASA!

You are contradicting your question number 2. : If indian doctors value the ‘respect’ they gets from their patients in india, why should so many of them flock to the USA? And those who scores low in USMLE and can’t find a good residency of their liking, moves to other countries or come back to india to study to crack PG exams so they can start private practice themselves and writes aforementioned company names of drug and not generic drug?

No patients respect a radiologist much, since neither the treat nor give medicine but just do ultra sound and CT scan and the write a report to the clinician, then in India why you must rank top to get a radiology seat in government college or at least 15 million INR(2012 rate) to get the same seat in private college? Cost is much higher than a MD medicine or MS general surgery seat, who treats bulk of patients and get most respect from patients.

At 2040, if india really crosses the US economy it will still have 3 or 4 times more population than the USA, so… ultimately it will be like comparison between india and spain now!

Sunil

My argument is Simple , India eventually is going to be more powerful than any other country , be it depending on population or not …

Sunil

i never meant Indian doctors earn 150k , but 50k

Sunil

And Can you deny that ? Those doctors are same genes as Indians here , So its not hard for India to make more doctors like them , And as far as i know most of there investment will eventually come back to India only , if they are clever enough to jump boat to better paying place , they are clever enough to jump boat to a better investment destination …

Sunil

lets do a poll about whats USMLE bible its unanimous ” first aid ” bro …

Sunil

So you dont like radiologist or you dont like Vikas Bhushan , agree he is american ..but so long as racist like many people in this post are there , they tend to come back to the roots …and if there is no racism there , world is a better place …hmm yeah i know racism is there in india too ” will go away bro ” , have you ever thought that india would send mars mission , it did , and it will do one by one slowly overtaking every big thing in the world ..lol ..but with love i may even say you own a part of india , it will be worth it , Buy it Before its too late ..

Sunil

bro you are wrong again , Indians are the highest Socioeconomically in USA than any other ethnicity ,more than Jews Also ,

Sunil

And you have Obvious bias to indian patients attitude to doctor study , you proved it to be wron , such prejudice is not meant to be inside a doctor , well i also try to say an isolated event and prove i am right is not simply correct ..

Sunil

So nice to hear that US dont have such medical reference practices , Please say again ,

Sunil

so according to you america is going to grow at 1 to 2 percenet every year and still for ever be equal to india …” nice ” , India will cross 6 in coming 12 months ” want a bet “??

Sunil

Every ones next investment is India , it was china’s time now its india’s , i suggest you also invest in India so that you get return of at-least 10 by next five years …No dont believe me watch news ..

Bharath Kishore Aluri

Is it worth wasting your time replying continuously Sunil?

The next reply would that watching news is a waste as it is fabricated by Indians or their henchmen.

Sunil

No , thanks bro …sometimes emotion overtake sensibility

Sunil

I agree that Harrison is most trusted book there , but once its management also was flawed it evolved , more correctly said Mc-Graw Hills grew as did Harrison’s , Now as India grows also will publishers and thereby also will proof reading and standard book….

Here is a quote from pub med ..

In the first edition of Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine, published in 1950 (which was my textbook as a student and which I later edited), treatment of AMI included inhaled oxygen in patients with pulmonary rales and/or cyanosis, as well as subcutaneous atropine and papaverine and sublingual nitroglycerine to relieve coronary spasm. Perhaps most importantly, anticoagulants (both heparin and warfarin were available) were recommended to prevent myocardial reinfarction, pulmonary embolism, and mural thrombosis.3

In retrospect, the management of AMI during Phase I may be considered to have been ‘expectant,’ with rest, relief of pain, anticoagulation, and coronary vasodilation, all of which were of questionable benefit. During this period, which marked the first half century after Herrick’s paper, mortality remained stubbornly high. Nevertheless, during Phase 1, much was learned about the clinical manifestations, natural history and electrocardiographic features of AMI. It became clear that ventricular arrhythmias were the most common causes of death.

Osymandias

All medicine book gets their new edition in 4 years. And who will write a standard internal medicine book In india? And every medicine book got a notice in their front page like: ‘medicine is a constantly changing field, as new research comes out and bla bla bla…. before administering any treatment written herein it is the responsibility of the clinician to make sure that it is the current best practice and that it won’t harm patients etc’. So no medicine book is perfect!

Every civilization grows and fall, so, india will grow, but thing is, we won’t be around to see that when it grows, I prefer to stay in present!

And what exactly you are trying to prove by putting this pubmed quote?

And no doctor now prescribes according to 1950 standards! Hell even clopidogrel, statins, fibrates nothing were there back then!

you said MI , so i was looking for that topic only , and found these ..yeah i already knew beta blocker stuff though

rahuldey85

The US is an amalgamation of cultures . The native americans are not particularly thriving or are scientifically advanced. People of Indian origin in the US are no different from Europeans or Middle eastern people or any other communities in the US.

gokul surendran

medicine pl!!!! check out what ayurveda means and its origins. we aren’t better than anybody but aren’t any lesser either. and have you freekin heard of iit’s.

Guest

1. Lighter and smaller

That is enough to explain the lower cost. The more mass you need to put in orbit the more fuel you need, the more fuel you need the more extra fuel you need to push the extra fuel and so on.

i find it cool to see more and more nations being able to get to mars but why don’t we combine our forces and make a global space organisation instead of dozens of different agencies so we do not do redundant work and waste time, resources and money.

Osymandias

Sounds like one world government, which in turn sounds like ‘illuminaty’ ;P

massau

world government is more like a 1984 if done wrong. but a special global space agency would be better. They will probably need to set a minimum bar like you have to get to mars first without our help before you can join.
but its probably just dreaming like always. countries tend to split not join.

Dunbar

Agreed.

Camren Hansen

The International Space Station has already accomplished this in many aspects. NASA has been the lead in diplomatic efforts in so many areas with the ESA, Roscosmos, JAXA, etc. But putting together some giant world organization sounds like it would turn into a bureaucratic mess to me.

massau

i wonder why all multi nation things become bloated bureaucracies. imagine an agency with the efficiency of spaceX and the budget of all other agencies combined.

Dunbar

A private space monopoly wouldn’t be a good thing. SpaceX’s costs are slashed to the bone precisely because they are in competition with many companies competing for contracts.

massau

yes and no they also work much more efficient then nase. nasa has multiple factories spread over the whole country. while space X has a single factory with a railway which supplies materials and then takes the fully assembled parts to a launchpad for filling and launch.

hence the 1/10th costs.

shatner

India is way ahead of china nowadays

anders bjørnø

Both are still behind Canada and US though.

sanjeev

In what ? For staging spectacles ? I can agree with you if India wins a few gold medals in the Asian games being held in South Korea !

Sunil

dude america never won a cricket world cup ..

sanjeev

ha ha. thats a nice joke. From now on we are going to take over the whole world !!! ? All the countries in the world, here we come..No stopping of us ! First we will start with toilets, then medals , then you see, we will go to moon !

Asdf Ghjk

Way ahead?
In what?
Space exploration?
The Chinese have been launching their own astronauts in space for 10 years now. Last year, they landed a rover on the moon (a harder thing to do than achieving a martian orbit) and have been operating a small space station.
Now decide for yourself who is ahead of who.

Mark Bravard

have pay off republicans in congress and senate .

anders bjørnø

Not to mention that the US had paid for the research to even getting the technology to this level in the first place. I’m sure that if you add that number into what India paid it’s more than the US.

Sunil

that’s true but its india’s turn to innovate now ..everyone has a day

CeruleanLineage

Our scientists did it. NASA oops USA is always overrated their every bit of everything.

Tom Scharf

Twice the complexity at the high end will cost ten times as much.

Congratulations to the India for this successful milestone. It is certainly welcome to have multiple countries sharing the economic and technical burden for planetary exploration.

onlyauser

How many Indians have worked for NASA till date. Find out & see . What about frying Indians in space like Kalpana Chawla.

Anuraag Aithal

” This was also India’s first attempt to reach Mars orbit — historically, only Europe’s ESA made it to Mars on its first attempt.” – I read in today’s newspapers it’s the first ever to do so .

Levi

I read through these comments and I see a lot of people arguing about why it was cheaper for India to complete their mission (saying “it was just a demo”, “NASA let them use their DSN”, “It doesn’t have as many sensors as MAVEN”, etc) but not many people congratulating them.

NASA allowing use of their pre-existing DSN is awesome, it’s great to share scientific resources for the betterment of the community. They got to learn NASA’s previous trial and error (no need for anyone to reinvent the wheel). I for one am amazed at what they have accomplished and think that they are going to go far in space exploration, its great to have another country investigating Mars!

India has a space program for one simple reason: the Indian Government
has invested billions in their ICBM capability. Yes, what we are witnessing are the fruits of a regional nuclear arms race.

How better to send China a message of India’s reach than inserting Indian made engineering into orbit around another planet.

4thaugust1932

Unlike India, USSR/US/EU have spent millions on R&D to reach Mars since 1960.
“If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” –Isaac Newton

James Gregory

Interesting. So NASA sent up a payload that was twice as heavy at, roughly, ten times the cost of India’s effort. Presumably, at only 11% of the cost, if India had sent up two rockets, capitalizing on the use of the same infrastructure for both launches, they could have sent up a payload equivalent to the weight of NASA’s for @15-20% of the cost NASA paid. Point is, there may be a lesson here for NASA. SPACEX, pay attention!

Dunbar

Are you suggesting the US offshores its space industry?

James Gregory

Not at all. I’m encouraging us to figure out how India managed to accomplish such a feat so economically efficiently to see if we can learn anything that is useful in our own efforts. They may have nothing at all they could teach us. But, it would be good to know that for sure.

vij

Indian Engineer here.. one main reason, Quality. Mangalyaan is built to have a good probability to reach Mars. Maven is built to definitely reach Mars.

Mangalyaan faced few issues during the journey with its engine, Maven faced none. Maven carries all the contingency plans like a person taking an umbrella out on a sunny day. well I dont blame NASA as it has to succeed at any cost being in the lead

James Gregory

Lovely answer. Thank you. I rather thought quality would be a variable. However, are there not scenarios in which “good probability” is good enough? Would redundant loads, increasing the probability of success to acceptable levels at only @1/5 the cost, be a smart use of funds? Is this possible approach worthy of inclusion in our “book of ideas” as just one more option for development of space initiatives? There are times when “two heads are better than one”. I’m not too impressed with those who embrace the “not invented here” syndrome.

Dunbar

Well, you must bear in mind India’s economy (in terms of GDP) is around ten times smaller than the US’s. So, India’s Mars mission actually cost the Indian Government a similar amount of money, relative to the size of their economy. In addition, the MAVERN orbiter is fully loaded scientific probe, whereas India’s is a technical demonstration. MAVERN is also twice the weight, which is a big deal; costs grow exponentially as weight increases. If you consider these factors it’s apparent NASA offers pretty good value.

Yes, it is a great accomplishment. Yes, MAVEN is bigger, better, and does more. Look at others, though. Russia had nine failed Mars missions before their first, only partially, successful one. The U.S. Mariner 4 was our second try, and it was only a fly-by. The first U.S. orbiter was our sixth mission to Mars.

NASA did the impossible in the 1960’s. Did the difficult in the 1970’s and 1980’s. Lately, they’ve become just another government agency, full of GS6’s waiting to be GS7’s, in need of an overhaul.

Our space program has matured. That is to say, it is now a cash cow for the myriad contractors who just sit back and cash checks from the taxpayers. One company combines two functions on one mission but still gets paid for two missions. Others have high level “managers” who just come to their offices a couple days a week, as they have no responsibilities of any kind until another project in their areas come up. We taxpayers pay their salaries and lucrative retirement plans, while Obama plots to gut Social Security and tax Roth IRA’s.

robin

The extent to which desis have made an impact in the US was reeled off in the Rajya Sabha — as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in NASA, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians.

Chitranjan Kumar

great achievement by india. this wil make space exploration more famous among countries.
help to find new things from space. india slowly catching up the space technolgy sufficency

ratnalanaveen

i found the information but i have not found more information in this . but if there is more information and pictures it would be nice for me nd also others i found little information but not full try 2 keep more nd more information thanks.

It is easy to send a lump of junk to Mars. All India is doing is proving that is it happy to waste money on totally pointless gestures when most of its population are starving.

Praveen Singh

John do have someone manner when you argue with any nation’s pride.
Yes we Indians are poor people but now scenario is changing, in a few years your ass will be kicked by Chinese than Indians and then your GDP will also go down the way it went in 2009 & 2011. Your own president gave one speech that Indians and Chinese are now a days are stealing your jobs because we Indians and Chinese are much more intelligent than you.

harif

hi

Matt Foley

Knowing the Indians ethics in university: cheat, cheat, cheat,pull an angry race card; and how they could not build anything practical in the lab when it came to common sense mechanics, I believe the mass numbers of Indians working at NASA, stole the technology. They are parrots and scavengers.

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