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How much clearer can it be? Grienke had bad blood with Quentin. Why in the hell would he regret not warning his catcher if he had no intention of hitting him? That makes zero sense to be remorseful over an accident (defined as, well, an accident). It clearly wasn't an accident, if it was an accident he wouldn't have said he regrets not alerting his catcher.

Reading comprehension isn't in your repertoire, is it?

It's obvious. 1. Greinke knows that the White Sox players have a problem with him 2. He thinks he should have realized that Quentin was a nutjob and warned his catcher that he was because if anything got out of hand, the nutjob was going to react.

Any other interpretation of his comment is nuts.

Quentin is a soft spoken Stanford grad, not some ape. But because he has brown skin and Grienke is the shy white kid with social anxiety disorder the perception is way, way skewed here.

I think the fact that HE CHARGED the mound is all the evidence you need to know he's a nutter. I honestly had no clue what color he was, I don't pay that much attention to the AL. The fact that he charged the mound, for a transgression from four years ago, is all I need to know about his personality. He's a ####### nutjob.

I think the fact that HE CHARGED the mound is all the evidence you need to know he's a nutter. I honestly had no clue what color he was, I don't pay that much attention to the AL. The fact that he charged the mound, for a transgression from four years ago, is all I need to know about his personality. He's a ####### nutjob.

I think Quentin getting plunked a few days before and missing a couple of days added to his frustration. I don't think he's a nutter, just that he saw red and did something stupid. The racism angle is what's nutty here. The Padres CEO is just a moron as he does even have the "heat of the battle" excuse.

It means everything. Grienke would have no real basis to warn Ellis of anything based on the idea that Quentin is some kind of "hothead," because he isn't.

There's nothing to "warn" Ellis about unless Grienke thought he might hit Quentin. "A bunch of guys on a team we're not playing in the league we're not playing in think I threw at them, and one of them's on the Padres and he's never charged the mound before but be careful, he might charge the mound."

Yeah, that makes sense.

Please. If you think Quentin being called an ape is racist that probably reflects more on you that you would so quickly make that connection.

Grienke would have no real basis to warn Ellis of anything based on the idea that Quentin is some kind of "hothead," because he isn't.

Except that they have argued in the past. Quentin never charging is the weakest defense on the planet...as someone pointed out OJ never killed anyone before.... So what. The simple fact that he did charge is all the evidence ever needed. Add in that he's in the NL, that he's with a new team and of course 4 YEARS, 18+ at bats against Greinke, and yet he's still holding a grudge for a supposed transgression. He needs to be on med if he holds a grudge that long.

Except that they have argued in the past. Quentin never charging is the weakest defense on the planet...as someone pointed out OJ never killed anyone before....

And that was an asinine comment when it was pointed out the first time.

I don't think Greinke's comment indicated he was planning to hit him. I think he was well aware of Quentin's feelings (and the feelings of all the White Sox), and knew that he should have let Ellis know of this history before facing the Pads.

His comments to Ellis do reinforce what I said on the other thread and pikepredator said above: he should have given some kind of "my bad" indication. If you're facing someone who already thinks you try to hit him, and then you hit him, you should try to convey the idea that it was an accident if you're interested in avoiding a confrontation.

His comments to Ellis do reinforce what I said on the other thread and pikepredator said above: he should have given some kind of "my bad" indication. If you're facing someone who already thinks you try to hit him, and then you hit him, you should try to convey the idea that it was an accident if you're interested in avoiding a confrontation.

That's just it -- nothing about the way he acted after the pitch gave any indication that Greinke was concerned before the game about some accidental "misunderstanding" that would be worth warning Ellis about.

That's just it -- nothing about the way he acted after the pitch gave any indication that Greinke was concerned before the game about some accidental "misunderstanding" that would be worth warning Ellis about.

I think it indicates he now regrets the fight happened, because he's out 8 weeks. He's thinking that had he warned Ellis beforehand, his catcher could have intervened. But before the brawl, I don't think avoiding a confrontation was all that important to him, as his on-field conduct displayed.

I don't think it's proof that he was planning to hit him, or particularly compelling evidence in that direction.

The "ape" comment was probably the most overtly racist comment I've read here in 7 years of posting.

I've been mostly lurking here for 12 years, almost since the very beginning. This is, beyond a doubt, the single most idiotic comment I've encountered here during that time...even after grading on the "SugarBear being contrarian simply for kicks" curve. Yes, that includes all the Piazza jokes, Admiral Ackbar, "Behold", Craig's wife. And Mike Crudale.

Really, dude. If someone here were to start a thread entitled "2+2=4", you'd put up two dozen posts to argue that it's 5.

Could Greinke have reacted better to stop the raging roider? sure... but it doesn't change the one simple fact. Quentin charged the mound. Is anyone debating this simple fact? He charged the mound. That part is undeniable. It is the only thing in this entire escapade that matters. He charged the mound. I don't care if he is a nice guy. I have heard of plenty of nice guys who only beat their wife once in their life. It doesn't change the fact that they beat their wife once. And it doesn't change the fact that Quentin charged the mound.

I think many of you on here are the people who say "If she didn't want to get raped, she shouldn't have flirted with those guys". It's ridiculous. Quentin charged the mound. In case you people missed it. Quentin charged the mound. He had 40+ feet to think of his actions and yet, he continued on his roided up rage and charged the mound. That is the part I just don't get defending. I don't care if Greinke said "quit leaning over"... or even "let's go" it doesn't change the simple fact that Quentin charged the mound and was 100% in the wrong, even if he thinks he was justified.

*Note---any roid comments is intended to be inflammatory. I have no clue what his usage of roids is, whether it's habitual or casual.

Ok Cardsfanboy - No matter how many times you keep repeating it, a lot of players have "charged the mound. Roid rage? Forget your weak caveat - you KEEP saying it. What's your proof of roids? It's just weak. You're the one who should stop the roiding. Whether habitual or casual.

Gweinke is the proven head case. he had to take a leave of absence from the game. And he's the one throwing the projectile head high at 92 MPH. Fact. No matter how much love YEEAARGH or whatever your handle is wants to express for the man. The Gweinke apologists on this site have denigrated BTF.

I should have warned my catcher?

After I hit him I squared up and barked at him?

If Gweinke keeps him mouth shut, no incident.

Quentin charges ONE guy in what 300HPB's and he's an ape? I'm with Madvillain all the way on this one. The vitirol toward Quentin here seems selective and confusing.

Did he throw on purpose, apparently not even Gweinke knows that one for sure.

Quentin isn't the first guy to ever charge the mound - intentional inflammatory stuff aside, I think some of the outrage towards him is extreme/misplaced.
He merited (and got) a longer punishment than the norm but I don't subscribe to the eye for an eye notion that he should be suspended for as long as Greinke's hurt.

Side note: it never occurred to me that Quentin was Hispanic. I suppose I should have known that, given that I've watched him loads of times and his name is Carlos, but - never noticed.

Quentin isn't the first guy to ever charge the mound - intentional inflammatory stuff aside, I think some of the outrage towards him is extreme/misplaced.
He merited (and got) a longer punishment than the norm but I don't subscribe to the eye for an eye notion that he should be suspended for as long as Greinke's hurt.

I don't subscribe to the suspension equals how long a guy is out. That is just idiotic. As to the length of suspension, that is what is should have been after the appeal. Yes I know he didn't appeal, but generally they give a suspension, an appeal is made, and then it's reduced but still there, since they know that is going to happen they need to start with a longer suspension to make it to the realistic time he should be gone. Realistically he should be gone for at least a week.

No matter how many times you keep repeating it, a lot of players have "charged the mound.

And 99% of them were raging a-holes at the time and 100% in the wrong. This is what I don't get. Charging the mound should never ever be accepted. I don't care if your messed up brain justifies it, there is almost never a reason to charge the mound.

If Gweinke keeps him mouth shut, no incident.

Again, I don't get it. Roid-head yelled at Greinke, and Greinke is the one that has to defuse the situation? Yet he is the head case.... the people defending Quentin have absolutely zero sense of logic.

I should have warned my catcher?

After I hit him I squared up and barked at him?

And also lack reading comprehension.

That is not remotely what Greinke said or meant. But go on living in this fantasy world.

Cardsfanboy I'm convinced you never played the game beyond tee ball and yet all of your comments have an arrogant air about them. Like you know something we don't. You have an opinion, that's all. And you're endless unsubstantiated roid accusations are just embarrassing. Bit somehow I know that won't stop some holier than thou comeback. Logic? Show some evidence of Quentin taking roids? And how do you ignore the fact it was his first charge in 260+ HBP's? Selective nonsense.

think many of you on here are the people who say "If she didn't want to get raped, she shouldn't have flirted with those guys". It's ridiculous. Quentin charged the mound. In case you people missed it. Quentin charged the mound. He had 40+ feet to think of his actions and yet, he continued on his roided up rage and charged the mound. That is the part I just don't get defending. I don't care if Greinke said "quit leaning over"... or even "let's go" it doesn't change the simple fact that Quentin charged the mound and was 100% in the wrong, even if he thinks he was justified.

Here's the thing cfb, whether Carlos is 100 percent in the wrong has no bearing on how we view Greinke's actions. At no point have I defended Carlos Quentin, who is absolutely guilty and worthy of a longer punishment than he received*, and nothing Greinke did or did not do justifies Quentin's conduct.

But like the dumbass O.J. comment, the rape analogy is terribly flawed (as they usually are)**. The flirty girl or the girl wearing a short skirt didn't actually do anything to the rapist. See, but here, and I know the Greinke apologists really try to forget this part, Greinke hit Carlos Quentin with a pitch. That's actually where the whole thing started. It really happened. It wasn't just a figment of Carlos Quentin's imagination. And it wasn't a case of Carlos hanging over the plate and taking a possible strike and turning it into an HBP. It was three inches inside the batter's box, a space that belongs to the batter, not the pitcher.

Now, I know, this is where you say, "But it wasn't intentional." That's somewhat meaningful, but it's not everything. The HBP doesn't smart any less if the pitch was not thrown with intent to plunk (not that this one would likely have been a terribly painful HBP). Intentional or not, the HBP was Greinke's fault. He hit Quentin, a guy who already believed he was a target for Greinke pitches (a fact Greinke was aware of).

The prudent thing to do in that situation is to indicate that it was your mistake (you know, SINCE IT WAS). It's not the time to be a badass. Greinke elected to be the tough guy who was going to stand up to this #######, and he got himself busted because of it.

Now, as you and others have said, Greinke has no obligation to make nice. But if you're going to play the tough guy role and enhance, rather than reduce, the likelihood of a bout, then you really don't warrant much sympathy when you get broken.

* As do all mound chargers. I'd ding Carlos harder because of how aggressively he went after Greinke.

** A much better analogy, which also has the benefit of not trivializing rape, is my wallet scenario. If I leave my wallet on the dashboard of my car and the windows down and the wallet gets stolen, I'm a dumbass. Almost no one would feel sorry for me for my plight.

However, my dumbassery doesn't mitigate the crime. If the guy who stole the wallet gets caught, he can't use "but your honor, it was just sitting right there on the dashboard" as a defense. That's what we have here. Carlos is 100 percent guilty, which all but the deranged understand. But Quentin's absolute guilt does not mean that Greinke is immune from culpability for what transpired. Responsibility, unlike effort, doesn't have to add to 100 percent. It's not a lot of responsibility, but it's enough for me to not feel bad*** about his injury.

*** Especially when coupled with his undeniably dickish radio comments, which likely fed into Quentin's dislike for him, though it can't really be part of the equation here.

Greinke has hit 59 people in his professional career and this is the first time anyone has charged him. That has to tell you something about Quentin.

The stupidity of that logic is staggering. I don't doubt for a second that Quentin thinks he's justified in his action. Heck almost anything anybody does they think they are justified in their action. I just don't see anything to suggest he actually WAS justified in his actions.

"The prudent thing to do in that situation is to indicate that it was your mistake (you know, SINCE IT WAS). It's not the time to be a badass. Greinke elected to be the tough guy who was going to stand up to this #######, and he got himself busted because of it."

Agreed.

Cardsroidboy - "Again, I don't get it. Roid-head yelled at Greinke..." Do you even know how stupid this sounds? Yeah, I can use the word STUPID too.

And I'm the one with the arrogant air... get over yourself. Yes I played ball past T-ball, not past high school. Who ####### cares. You don't charge the mound period. It's that simple.

Again the roid accusations is just to get under the people defending quentin. I don't care if he did roids, personally I would support league controlled roiding. The simple fact is he acted like an ass and deserves what he got, and deserves to be villified for his actions.

And how do you ignore the fact it was his first charge in 260+ HBP's? Selective nonsense.

Easy.. You ignore it. I don't get why it matters whether he has been hit 1 time or 1000 times. He was hit and charged the mound. That simple. It means he's a hot head. He has been holding a grudge since 2009... How can you look at that and not conclude he has some anger issues?

Now, I know, this is where you say, "But it wasn't intentional." That's somewhat meaningful, but it's not everything. The HBP doesn't smart any less if the pitch was not thrown with intent to plunk (not that this one would likely have been a terribly painful HBP). But it was Greinke's fault. He hit Quentin, a guy who already believed was a target for Greinke pitches (a fact Greinke was aware of).

Actually I don't care whether it was intentional. Quentin charged the mound. That is the only piece of evidence I need to justify condemning Quentin. But if I was interested in the intentional aspect of it, the problem is that you can't carry over other division rivalries into a new team and not give your new team a chance to defend you. There is some discussion that Quentin (along with the other White Sox players) were upset with Ozzie for not defending them in the past when they had these perceived headhunters hunting them. That leads to an attitude that you have to take care of yourself. Now this is four years later, new team for both players, new managers etc...and he gets hit. He needs to calm the #### down and see how his team handles it. Instead he yells at Greinke(and according to Yaz, Greinke is supposed to say "Yes Sir" and back down, instead of say whatever it is he said, which then lit the fuse...again I don't see how Greinke is the headcase here...Quentin is the one who was ready to explode, and yes Greinke didn't defuse the situation, but it wasn't his responsibility to defuse a hothead)

"And I'm the one with the arrogant air... get over yourself. Yes I played ball past T-ball, not past high school. Who ####### cares. You don't charge the mound period. It's that simple."

I care. And to you - and your simple non-baseball mind its that simple, to those of us who played and faced 90+ heat, it's a bit different. But keep on spouting your defenseless roid nonsense. It suits you.

I care. And to you - and your simple non-baseball mind its that simple, to those of us who played and faced 90+ heat, it's a bit different. But keep on spouting your defenseless roid nonsense. It suits you.

I care. And to you - and your simple non-baseball mind its that simple, to those of us who played and faced 90+ heat, it's a bit different. But keep on spouting your defenseless roid nonsense. It suits you.

Really...you are pulling the old "I played professional ball" card.... Seriously get over yourself. (I always love the arrogance of people who think their experience lines up with the professionals, but other peoples do not)

Again Quentin charged the mound because he had a 4 year old grudge. He is a head case. He has faced Greinke 18+ times since 2009 when he was hit and hasn't charged the mound. The situation was not the proper time for an intentional hbp, and he had already faced him two times in this particular game. He gets hit, barks at Greinke, and because he didn't get a proper "my bad" he goes ape(yes I went there)####?

If Greinke yelled back at him "I put my balls in your wife face also" it still wouldn't have justified Quentin's actions.

Actually I don't care whether it was intentional. Quentin charged the mound. That is the only piece of evidence I need to justify condemning Quentin.

Thanks for being so nonresponsive.

But I'll play. What if it was intentional? Would you condemn just one of them, or would you condemn both? And if it's the latter, then you've proved my point. We can assign responsibility to a second party without lessening the guilt of the former.

I think punishments for charging the mound should be stiffer - but you do that before an incident, not as an immediate response to one. (Fwiw, my thought was that CQ should be out 8-10 games)

I also have no problem with SoSh's idea that the batter has no obligation to get out of the way of a pitch in their box - but that isn't the current rule.

Greinke isn't without culpability here - he did hit a guy (though that's an inevitable part of the job) and could've been more diplomatic after the fact ... but he was hardly inflammatory here.
You know, there's a reason various Padres were apologizing to the Dodgers - there's not a lot of 'he deserves what he got' feelings here.

I don't think either of these guys are head cases and calling them detracts from your arguments.

I also have no problem with SoSh's idea that the batter has no obligation to get out of the way of a pitch in their box - but that isn't the current rule.

In this case, it was kind of immaterial. If Quentin jumps out of the way, the end result is the same - he's on first base. It wasn't as if he stole a base that Greinke wouldn't have given up otherwise.

I think punishments for charging the mound should be stiffer - but you do that before an incident, not as an immediate response to one. (Fwiw, my thought was that CQ should be out 8-10 games)

No, I don't think you can suddenly slap him with 30 games. I just would like to see baseball boost the bans for this idiocy.

Tripon - My objection is to the unsubstantiated repeated, holier than thou accusations of Quentin being a roid-rager. You want to change the topic to some Straw Man go for it. I don't condone Quentin charging the mound, never have - but the Greinke apologists on this site are an embarrassment given the whole story. I agree with MANY other sensible posts in this thread and others that if this was Aceves or someone other than nerdfanboy Greinke this wouldn't even be a story. Nor would it be much of a story if one of his Dodger teammates didn't land on him and break his 140 million dollar collar bone.

And just curious. Have you stood in the box against 90+heat?

Its human nature if you feel you're life and livelihood are being threatened to defend yourself. Especially when the head case with the lethal projectile, who has hit you several times before - tells you to Eff off afterward.

Der K - you may not like it but only one of these two players took time off from the game for mental reasons.

"Really...you are pulling the old "I played professional ball" card.... Seriously get over yourself."

Everyone of your comments suggests some sort of superior knowledge if the game like you know something we don't. No, you have an opinion and in this case, my baseball experience has direct relevance. Whether you think so or like it or whatever.

What if it was intentional? Would you condemn just one of them, or would you condemn both? And if it's the latter, then you've proved my point. We can assign responsibility to a second party without lessening the guilt of the former.

Let's say it was intentional.

If we are saying that we somehow read Greinke's mind and we know it was intentional, but there has been no other evidence out there to suggest it was intentional other than that? If that is the case, there is nothing to do, and you have to let the teams handle it, the way they have handled it for 100+ years.

If it was intentional and Greinke admitted it to someone and we get that information, then I'm fully on board with a 8 game suspension (note: 8 games is the minimum suspension I think a starting pitcher should ever get..drawback is of course the fairness of that particular rule if it was ever enforced) when he comes back from his injury. Although on appeal, I might waive that suspension since the 8 weeks he is going to be out, is probably sufficient punishment.

The problem I have with Quentin's actions, beyond the obvious(he charged the mound) is that he was on a new team, and didn't trust his teammates enough to have his back. Baseball has an way of handling this, and mound charges are usually the last resort or boiling up of intense heated rivalries or an intense series etc. This was a lone wolf crusade that was a slap to his teams face. You don't expect to see a madman in the first week of the season, on a new team exploding over a 4 year old rivalry that nobody on either side has a clue about.

Ape in this context probably means a dumb meathead who is seen taking his frustrations on a defenseless choir boy with a personality disorder.

I don't need to see why Quentin is demonized as an ape though - it's professional sports and sometimes guys get into this sort of nonsense.

Up to the point Quentin was hit, Greinke probably felt like he was carving these guys up and could do anything he wanted - until he went a little too far and in towards the wrong guy and a brawl started with Greinke getting injured.

IF Greinke couldn't cut it - he could have walked away from the game years ago.

If we are saying that we somehow read Greinke's mind and we know it was intentional, but there has been no other evidence out there to suggest it was intentional other than that? If that is the case, there is nothing to do, and you have to let the teams handle it, the way they have handled it for 100+ years.

Good Christ, I wasn't suggesting it was intentional. I'm asking you a simple question: if we knew (say Greinke admitted as much after the game) that this was intentional, would you condemn Greinke for it? And if you would, would you then would absolve Quentin's conduct fully as a result, or would you consider them both worthy of condemnation?

Hopefully, you would condemn them both. Which would show that whether Quentin is "100 percent guilty" doesn't have to affect how we view Greinke's culpability. Now, you're under no obligation to consider whether Greinke contributed and how much, but I think that's a simpleton's way of viewing it.

With the amount of damage steroids and the whole PED era has caused to the game I love, I have very little patience for non-playing holier than thou internet posters who repeatedly and arrogantly accuse and taint a player with unsubstantiated accusations to make themselves sound like they know something. Especially on this site, where the bar has always been higher than this pathetic nonsense.

"Just like roid rage in the context I used meant hotheaded dumbass who explodes for any perceived slight...and not an actual reference to whether he takes roids or not."

And here's the pathetic walk back. .

Any perceived slight? Hot head? The man has been hit more times than just about anyone in MLB history. Just dumb.

Yaz - I see no relationship b/w Greinke's leave of absence and a dude who hits guys on purpose, a rep he doesn't have.

Incidentally, what he did* is a little more common than you'd think, if stories I've heard about trumpeted up DL stints are true. Not frequent, but certainly more than is reported.
* not how he did it, mind you. Tact is not his strength - and his dogging it was a real problem.

Tripon - My objection is to the unsubstantiated repeated, holier than thou accusations of Quentin being a roid-rager. You want to change the topic to some Straw Man go for it.

Uh... you're the one who claimed that charging the mound is allowed. I know I didn't claim Quentin takes steroids, but I do think he has anger problems, and my evidence is that he injured another player when he was angry.

Der K - OK. I've never said he had conscious intent. But clearly Quentin was in his head as his suggestion of warning Ellis proves. And the fact remains the kid had social anxiety disorder and when in a tight confrontation with a nemesis, who leans out over the plate - it happened.

Share a trumped up DL stint story with me, I'd like to hear it.

Tripon - read closely what SoSH just said. And I have never claimed it was allowed, that's another Straw Man - I said it's human nature.

I'm asking you a simple question: if we knew (say Greinke admitted as much after the game) that this was intentional, would you condemn Greinke for it? And if you would, would you then would absolve Quentin's conduct fully as a result, or would you consider them both worthy of condemnation?

I wouldn't absolve Quentin at all. Again he charged the mound. That is nearly an unforgivable action in my opinion. I understand it happens from time to time, and you can't control building up of pressure etc, but that doesn't mean it's forgivable.

I would probably condemn Greinke too, but considering that his "intentional" hbp was done in the way that is "acceptable" in the majors, not really sure what else we could do. I don't forgive Pedro for his headhunting ways either, but I don't really hold it against him either.

And here's the pathetic walk back.

I don't really care about what you think. Quentin committed a sin in baseball, in my book that is an action that gives me full right to pick on him as much as I want. He charged the mound. I think that is a supremely despicable act. I think that a guy who harbors a grudge for 4 years, 18+ at bats against a guy, has some mental issues he needs to work through.

I don't think he did roids, for the simple fact, I don't think anyone does roids until actual evidence is produced. This is the U.S. I defended the innocent before proven guilty mantra in every roid thread we have had on here, and will continue to do so. Having said that, it doesn't mean I'm not going to call hotheaded actions roid rage, especially if it's with someone who I currently rate as a despicable player. (note my opinion might change on him in a few weeks, as, unlike Quentin, I do not hold grudges against someone for any length of time)

It's a personal attack against me. Seems that frustrated ex-pro baseball players like Yaz here has nothing better to do than make a personal attack against some internet nerdbody. Good thing I'm not pitching against him, he might think it's justified to charge me.

Not wanting to risk libel (I could've heard wrong) or offer lame hints, I'll note a not too concealed recent example (nowadays, teams actually do use the dl for mental health reasons): when Votto went on the DL for the umpteenth time in '09, it was initially explained as stress related to inner ear issues. In truth, it was primarily because he was struggling to cope with the death of his father the prior year.

Yea, totally, look at the thread from the original article here. I think Quentin was called an ape in...wait for it...the first comment. Classy.

Whoa wait. As others have said, my use of "ape" there had nothing to do with Quentin's race and everything to do with meat-headed response to getting hit by the pitch. You're inferring meaning to my comment that's just not there. Now, if Quentin and Grienke had just had a heated verbal exchange and I'd made the same comment, then sure, you'd be on to something.

Hell, I got halfway through this thread before I realized that the "ape" comment in question was something I'd written. Like someone else pointed out, is that even a derogatory term generally associated with Hispanics? When used as a racial insult, it's been toward, well... you know.

Easy.. You ignore it. I don't get why it matters whether he has been hit 1 time or 1000 times. He was hit and charged the mound. That simple. It means he's a hot head. He has been holding a grudge since 2009... How can you look at that and not conclude he has some anger issues?

Or, how can you look at Quentin not charging the mound all the other times he's been hit, and holding his temper with Greinke since 2009, and not conclude he has a lot of self-control?

It seems like the entirety of the judgment of Quentin's character hangs on the fragility of Greinke's collarbone.

This is, beyond a doubt, the single most idiotic comment I've encountered here during that time...even after grading on the "SugarBear being contrarian simply for kicks" curve.

Nah, it's not even a contender for most idiotic comment on this thread.

Really, dude. If someone here were to start a thread entitled "2+2=4", you'd put up two dozen posts to argue that it's 5.

If there's a dustup between a pitcher and a hitter and people are ranting and raving in favor of the pitcher because the hitter's a headcase and nutjob, and the pitcher is Zack Grienke ... well, at that point we're pretty far afield from 2+2=4.