Andrew I have been meaning to get back to you on this point.. When I first raised the head of my bed I noticed nothing except I seemed to breath a bit better but it was still hard..< but after several months, My varicose veins faded out and became smooth with no bulges I have about 3 or for on my right leg only. right to the left below my kneecap.. Just about 6 or 8 weeks ago, My bed came down to put on a head and foot board, It is still flat as the bed is being worked on my frame was to wide for my bed.. so I have lowered it back down.. I noticed that within these few weeks my varicose veins have come back and they are bigger then they were.. I am sleeping up right in a chair for now as laying back is difficult to breath I am sitting upright in my living room chair!

It really did help to have the bed inclined as far as the varicose veins. The swelling was another story.. I could not tell because I am on so many diuretics for the water retention.. so I don't know which one was the reliever!

Karen thank you for this post. And thank you for trusting me enough to try Inclined Bed Therapy for yourself.

What you have just stated poses no problem to my own theory on the way circulation works with gravity. However it does pose some serious problems for the current literature that need to be addressed asap. Your own observations are as we know merely anecdotal evidence, even though we know you are giving a true account of what you witnessed. Particularly with the re-emerging veins on sleeping horizontal again. Add to this the fact that you have never given anyone a reason on this forum to doubt your integrity and you are respected by everyone here, your post may not get ignored quite as much as mine do.

The oedema relief conflicts hugely with current physiology because according to it your legs should have swollen rather than the observed reduction you witnessed. Now if you think about what you have written the answer as to whether it was IBT or diuretics lies with your observations while sleeping flat. So did your swelling begin to gradually return along with the return of the varicose veins?

1. You observed a reduction in pressure inside the varicose veins. So let us assume that the entire venous return has now a modified pressure inside the veins so that it has reduced significantly compared to the surrounding tissue pressure, which as you know makes the skin a tight as a drum when it is swollen.2. Oedema happens because the pressure inside the veins is higher than the surrounding tissue so fluid moves from the veins into the surrounding tissue causing the familiar swelling. 3. When your varicose veins shrunk it was because the pressure that was pushing them out had reversed to a pressure pulling them in. This would inevitably reverse also the flow of tissue fluids back into the veins and into the main circulation where the salts would be excreted in the urine after filtration.So over several months the density of your blood and more importantly the density of the tissue fluids would gradually return to normal.

Nevertheless we still need to conduct a controlled study in order to confirm what you and others have witnessed is not just a mere coincidence but something that tells us a lot about the way solutes change pressures inside the vascular and arterial network that circulates.

Now we need more people who will test this so rather than have an operation why no try this first and report your findings to us on this thread?

Andrew I have been meaning to get back to you on this point.. When I first raised the head of my bed I noticed nothing except I seemed to breath a bit better but it was still hard..< but after several months, My varicose veins faded out and became smooth with no bulges I have about 3 or for on my right leg only. right to the left below my kneecap.. Just about 6 or 8 weeks ago, My bed came down to put on a head and foot board, It is still flat as the bed is being worked on my frame was to wide for my bed.. so I have lowered it back down.. I noticed that within these few weeks my varicose veins have come back and they are bigger then they were.. I am sleeping up right in a chair for now as laying back is difficult to breath I am sitting upright in my living room chair!

It really did help to have the bed inclined as far as the varicose veins. The swelling was another story.. I could not tell because I am on so many diuretics for the water retention.. so I don't know which one was the reliever!

I am noticing however that my legs are tender up the shin bone and that there is mild edema even now with the dieuretics and no incline.. so I am experiencing some edma back in my limbe again with the return of the bed and my recentposition in my chair.. I have been off and on in my chair for months but a body can only go so long in this position and then one needs to stretch out nice and flat and open up those bends at the hip from sitting upright all the time.. Thus the stretch out and occassional nights I migrate back to my bed knowing no sleep will come... justy the stretch and relaxing... so I believe the incline allowed me more time in a strtched out position and my breathing was not quite as bad,,, but I am not sure if that is from progression of the disease or the bed situation..

When I stopped the incline I really noticed no real changes in the way I felt.. it was not for several weeks that I noticed small things bothering me that I had not noticed had gone away.. Like the bottom of my feet had stopped hurting on the incline... it was easier to get out of bed and walk without them hurting.. The soreness in my calves went away and one big thing I was not having as many bouts with the restless leg syndrome on the incline and I have had many actually an increased amount of episodes of that since returning to flat and sitting up folded in half! LOL.. So there is also another plus...

I will return to that position upon repair of my bed but need to buy a stool to mount my bed! LOL... It is difficult for me to get into the inclined bed as I am already a short girl! I have to elevate one hip at a time to get on the bed and my feet dangle six or more inches from the floor when I finally get onto the bed. I feel like Lilly Tomlin on the big big Story bed!

Guess no one here will admit to having varicose veins. So not much chance of getting anyone to test the inclined bed therapy and disprove or prove what I have stated here either. Which is a crying shame when we are supposed to be interested in science.

If it's of any use to you, I have varicose veins and don't mind admitting it. :) (Not just in my legs, either. ;) ) I also have a history of phlebitis, too. (Which some seem to think should be 'fleabit-us', as I've a couple of dogs who like to share sleeping arrangements with me. Lol)

You'd perhaps need to take a look at my thread at http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=15112.0 before deciding if I can be of use to you, and accept that I don't sleep in a bed but on a sofa with my back supported against the firm back of that, whilst various other bits get draped over cushions to remove pressure from pinching nerves in the spine. However, I don't think it would cause me too much of a problem to raise the head end of the sofa and give it a try... as long as my son does the raising and not me. Lol

Andrew, do you have a simpler write-up of the whole IBT-thing for the "non-scientist" simpler minds like mine? Reading this about oedema - a friend of mine has that in both legs and maybe she'd be willing to try if I can give her a simpler explanation and instruction?

(I really don't have varicose veins (yet?) - although I'm thinking of trying IBT for the old spine)

Re a simple explanation for IBT. google it using "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" this way your friend can find the right level of introduction. It is well worth investigating further as there are many reports and case histories to be found that will be of interest to you and your friend. You will also find some posts from people who are sceptics and the usual spoilers.

Naked Scientists is by far the best forum of its kind on the Internet!

this is a short video that is pitched about right by the television crew.

IBT may become uncomfortable at times, you may find you ache more in the first two weeks. Hang on in there as this means you are beginning to respond.

Your screen names, Old Dragon and Grumpy Old Mare don't appear to fit your personalities in the slightest?

I am noticing however that my legs are tender up the shin bone and that there is mild edema even now with the dieuretics and no incline.. so I am experiencing some edema back in my limbs again with the return of the bed and my recent position in my chair.. I have been off and on in my chair for months but a body can only go so long in this position and then one needs to stretch out nice and flat and open up those bends at the hip from sitting upright all the time.. Thus the stretch out and occasional nights I migrate back to my bed knowing no sleep will come... just the stretch and relaxing... so I believe the incline allowed me more time in a stretched out position and my breathing was not quite as bad,,, but I am not sure if that is from progression of the disease or the bed situation..

When I stopped the incline I really noticed no real changes in the way I felt.. it was not for several weeks that I noticed small things bothering me that I had not noticed had gone away.. Like the bottom of my feet had stopped hurting on the incline... it was easier to get out of bed and walk without them hurting.. The soreness in my calves went away and one big thing I was not having as many bouts with the restless leg syndrome on the incline and I have had many actually an increased amount of episodes of that since returning to flat and sitting up folded in half! LOL.. So there is also another plus...

I will return to that position upon repair of my bed but need to buy a stool to mount my bed! LOL... It is difficult for me to get into the inclined bed as I am already a short girl! I have to elevate one hip at a time to get on the bed and my feet dangle six or more inches from the floor when I finally get onto the bed. I feel like Lilly Tomlin on the big big Story bed!

Thank you Karen for sharing your experience when you went back to your normal postural routines. Very interesting.

This again is a very important post because it shows that oedema had not only reduced but that since you have reverted back from IBT you are seeing an increase in oedema again and this shows that is was not the diuretics in this case that were making a difference because presumably you still take them?

The restless legs syndrome or Ekbomís Syndrome has been reported by many to have completely resolved using IBT, only to return again when IBT is abandoned. My wifeís mum had this problem and was the first to report improvements when she came to Devon on Holiday and I tilted the bed in the caravan for her.

Many people who have used the inclined bed method fail to notice niggling pains and aches that vanish. This is because people seldom complain about feeling better. So it takes a period of 2-4 weeks of reverting back in order to realise how much benefit you were getting in the first place.

The most impressive case to date is a girl aged 12 with cerebral palsy, who is a young woman now became able to walk for the first time after around 8 months of IBT. I would love to be able to convince a hospital to conduct a study into CP using IBT, but alas I cannot find a method of moving this forward.

Re a simple explanation for IBT. google it using "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" this way your friend can find the right level of introduction. It is well worth investigating further as there are many reports and case histories to be found that will be of interest to you and your friend. You will also find some posts from people who are sceptics and the usual spoilers.

Naked Scientists is by far the best forum of its kind on the Internet!

this is a short video that is pitched about right by the television crew.

IBT may become uncomfortable at times, you may find you ache more in the first two weeks. Hang on in there as this means you are beginning to respond.

Your screen names, Old Dragon and Grumpy Old Mare don't appear to fit your personalities in the slightest?

Thanks for this and the Farmfoods link, Andrew. Have PM'd you information relating to my current situation with the varicose veins/oedema/IBS and that all seem interlinked in an ongoing cycle of medication related chaos! Feel free to quote anything you might wish from that.

Oh, believe me, 'Old Dragon' is very much an earned ID name! (Although friends rarely feel the flaming tongue of the dragon licking their lugs, it can happen! )

I'll refrain from commenting on Jutta's 'Grumpy Old Mare' ID, but can empathise should she feel grumpy when her back kicks off and she feels like sinking her teeth into certain people that lead with the chin!

All I need to get now are the blocks and someone to take the photos, then I'll be ready, but won't have much chance tomorrow as back in hospital for the day for a bone scan. Radioactive dye injected am, then the scan in the afternoon.

Got some fresh asparagus and ordered a case of tinned from the little local shop. Got the hydrometre, nettle tea, batteries - which someone with working fingers is going to have to fit into the scale for me! That after they have retrieved one from an obscure corner of the bathroon, 'cos I dropped it.

Lidl do asparagus in a jar which from memory is inexpensive. Fresh is amazing, frozen is pretty amazing also. Tinned and jarred has everything in it you need but lacks the must have more appeal.

Test urine with hydrometer before asparagus as this amazing vegetable will definitely change your urine and obscure any results:)

I have observed tar like urine produced while my Father was in hospital and we were advised that his kidneys had irretrievably broken down begin to produce clear urine several hours after his bed was tilted against the wishes of the doctors and nurses J

His legs were so swollen his pyjamas had been cut right up the legs which were so heavy with oedema I had trouble lifting them let alone dad. The nurses and doctors watched in amazement as all of the swelling vanished as quick as it had developed and all we did was tilted his bed. You would think that this would have stimulated some interest, yet as soon as my back was turned down came his bed and back in a comatose state he went. Eventually I stayed at his side to prevent these idiots from putting his bed down. 4 times I got dad out of a comatose state by tilting his bed. Each time it was induced by putting him horizontal and each time we had the bad news I am afraid message and rushed back to the hospital to find his bed had once again been put flat. Stupidity is too kind a word when the evidence is so blatantly obvious for keeping him tilted. Dad was given metformin, a drug given to people with type 2 diabetes, despite my Father never having had diabetes and our family being eventually told that he was given this dangerous drug as a preventative measure just in case he ever developed diabetes? I have not figured this logic out yet either.

Must stay focused on veins and oedema sorry about getting sidetracked.

Hopefully we should soon see some reports of shrinking veins and oedema. And we have already had it confirmed by Karenís own experiences with IBT that both veins and oedema improved.

We do need around fifty people with varicose veins to test this in order to provide us with some statistics and photographic evidence. If we can show that veins do reduce by tilting the bed to a five degree head up tilt it will pose some serious problems for current physiology to deal with and if oedema goes down as predicted it will and has done for Karen we will have presented some serious problems for the current paradigm on circulation.

Of course this will still be considered as anecdotal evidence that will be requiring a controlled study or a double blind cross over study but at least we will have put the pilot study in place for this to happen. And more to the point will have shown others that there is no reason to risk dangerous ineffective surgical procedures when a couple of blocks under the bed can address the problem with oedema and varicose veins.

Perhaps then we may also be able to address why so many amputations are still being performed due to circulation failure. Perhaps hospitals may then begin to question how a totally untested flat bed model has been put in place to treat people with often life threatening circulation problems? In fact a flat bed has been shown to produce many serious health problems and has been used by NASA and the former Soviet Space programme to induce many of the harmful effects that affect astronauts in space travel.

I thought perhaps to turn the tinned asparagus into soup or add it to a chicken and rice dish I make to give some variety, but still be consuming it daily. Also stand-by supplies for when it's out of season or my freezer is full.

Aiming to head for the builder's merchants today to see if they can supply a suitable lump or length of wood to raise the sofa.

Not slept again since the few hours I got soaking in the bath yesterday morning and prior to the body scan. Between the injection of the radioisotope and the scan, I was asked to drink plenty and had some strong coffee, as I felt I'd likely nod off somewhere and fail to make it back to the radiology department on time otherwise. Also tried some mentally stimulating things - after another night without sleep, and in hindsight, I likely overdid both the coffee and brain stimulation.

I wonder if IBT will help to normalise my sleep patterns and improve the insomnia problems? I know that has to be taking its toll on my body.

Tasks for today:1. Get the veins photographed.2. Acquire some means of lifting the bed, as my son's visiting in the evening after work, so can do the heavy lift bit.

I really need now to get back into as normal a routine as possible work-wise, and so that I can both catch up and keep on top of everything as far as possible once the chemo cycles start. Yesterday morning I had to resort to taking 15mg of codeine phosphate to address the IBS sufficiently to attend the hospital appointment without discomfort and to try and slow my gut action a bit, as much as anything because the frequency of bowel movements have aggravated the haemorrhoids! Bleeding piles are the last thing I want, and especially as I've had to increase the amount of aspirin I'm taking at present to tackle inflammation in my back. There is obviously a fair bit of activity with bone breaking down and/or regenerating, but when I asked to see a copy of the images that had been printed onto a sheet of A4 paper, and out of curiosity, my request was refused. I was told the results would be given to me by my cancer consultant. Odd, as I'd not asked for the results, just to see the printed sheet, as I was viewing the reverse side of that at the time, so had little more than an outline and areas where the ink density was showing up well through the paper to identify some hot spots. Mmmmmmmm! It came as no surprise then that they wanted to take some ordinary x-rays of my lumbar spine; more so that they didn't have any on record in my file, but I was surprised that they weren't going to x-ray the thoracic region due to the recent flare there and because they already had one from Feb 2006.

The radiologist was more willing to allow me to view those lumbar spine x-rays. Even to discuss things evident there, and that were plain to see. She looked a little taken aback when I mentioned the degenerative evidence was hardly surprising after the SI joint had been locked up in the wrong position for 12 years... Could that be an omission from my notes, I wonder? I bet they mention poor posture as the cause to me at some point when giving me the results.

Whatever, it all does have bearing on varicose veins, because the whole package is interlinked with medication and these other conditions. Having not been to bed yet again, or even been able to lie down in comfort due to the signs that the x-ray positions I had to assume have triggered little flares that could kick off the muscle spasms again (please, God, no!) the oedema in my legs has also increased, and my calves especailly are very hard and tight. I have had a couple of couple cups of nettle tea, though, and hope that will help.

You really need to be sleeping on a tilted bed, because having your upper body propped up against the arm of the couch even with it's tilted is still going to be placing a load on the spine, and then there is the problem with your feet pushing against the other arm of the couch and the constant pressure on the bottoms of your feet which needs to be avoided due to the possibility of pressure sores developing on your toes, soles and heels. Whereas titling a bed will do the opposite. So maybe when you feel you have become accustomed to the incline you may consider retiring to an inclined bed?

You asked me about Chemo and Radio Therapy and hair. Danny, who outlived his prognosis of less than a year to live by 10 years noted that after tilting his bed, his hair no longer fell out following chemo and radio therapy. Ironically his white blood cell count went down and his red blood cell count went up but thatís another study for another time.

Check out also milkthistle for protecting your liver and kidneys during radiation therapy.

This is all a very fascinating subject for me to study, Andrew, but to put your mind at rest, mine isn't the normal type of sofa with solid arms. I don't prop myself up on the arm at the head end, as that is a simple, metal arch, I just use pillow. There's nothing at the foot end for my feet to connect against, except perhaps a sleeping dog, so the feet would end up poking over the end into space if I slipped down the incline. It's the support the sofa back provides for my back, and to keep my sleeping on my side rather than rolling onto my back during sleep, that I rely on. It's also ample long enough for me to stretch out full length along, being a sofa bed, rather than a bed. I could pull it out to make it a flat, double bed, but by morning be unable to get out of it and be in agony. Perhaps, if there's a significant improvement resulting from inclining the sofa bed, I'll risk pulling it out flat one day in the future, but not at this stage or as my back is at present, okay?

Great, I can now sleep at night myself instead of worrying about you and the dogs piled up at the bottom of a settee :)

It might interest you to know that this is normal for our family, we are continually snuggled up with 3 of our 4 bull terriers. The older one Nelly is an antisocial miserable old cow around the home but we still love her :) Shes great when shes outdoors. At 10 she managed to bag a magpie that came too close while out for a stroll (terrier type) Still one less magpie means lots more safe birds eggs.

Got a good feeling about you joining this study and know if it does not go to plan you will say so and if it does you will tell it how it is. Your friend should benefit from IBT greatly given her problems with nerve damage.

I have a feeling about it too, Andrew. Borrowing from my goddaughter's vocabulary, when I first read this thread, I was 'prinkling'.

I have my grandson here now, so concentration is impossible! He's now trying to discover what the two levers do under my office chair, so I'm on tenterhooks in case my seat suddenly crashes down! Think he'll need to be a bit stronger yet to operate the levers but... Counted over 50 Whys, whats and hows already since he walked in through the door! Still lagging behind with answers for him as he speeds ahead with the questions, punctuated by tales and queries after the black dog's health, since the little golden one was ill and had to be put to sleep! He wanted a drink, so I offered him a sip of my 'Beekle juice' (beetroot juice), which he's never tried, so was suspicious of, unlike his father at that age, who would eat pickled beetroot (or onions) until the cows came home and then drink the vinegar as well. Instead he opted for my 'squirty bottle' of water, send a load down his neck and chest with a misfire at his mouth, so promptly upped his t-shirt and dried his chest on his granddad's trousers! Granddad (my ex) then threatened to leave him here with me, which would have delighted the young 'Mini-Mick-Taker' so grandma had to do a rapid fiery dragon act and herd the pair of them out of the front door!

What's the betting than little fellow wants to know why my sofa bed is inclined and when it finally is... Who would have though it so hard to get hold of a couple of 6" blocks of wood? It'll be easier around here to find an old length of railway sleeper and cut that to size... and I just might know where one of those is...

Be seeing you!

BTW, the Grumpy Old Mare is moving house, so may be missing for a couple of weeks and until she has her internet connection sorted at the new location.

Someone had pinched that railway sleeper! (It would have been a swine to extract anyway, and I think it must either have gone or been buried when a JCB was working in the area recently.)

I have ordered a pair of wooden lifts to be made by probably the only place around here willing to make them as a one off item, and at a price I'd rather not afford, so Mike has kindly offered to put his money where my mouth is. (This probably in return for resisting the temptation to remove or otherwise alter his scalp in the recent challenge.) I am told by the managing director of the company, in person, that they will be ready next Wednesday. (That'll be £30 per pair, Mike, and that's for the soft wood ones, so if you want hard wood ones... might I suggest you or Mig saw a couple of your oak logs to size?)

Photos: (Be warned, these are not a pretty sight! )

Left Inside Leg - showing affected veins and a degree of oedema present together with the depression left in that from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.

Right upper inside leg - difficult to see the veins due to the current level of oedema. The marks showing in that represent having been wearing knee length socks.

Right ankle and lower leg, again showing a measure of oedema from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.

Varicose veins not shown: Haemorrhoids.

History:

The varicose veins on my right leg began to develop following a riding accident when aged 16 years (August 1968) and after being trampled by a young pony whilst training for a career in the equestrian industry. Although not easy to identify, there is still a horseshoe shaped depression in the lower calf region and between the two main areas affected. The upper area has been affected on numerous occasions by phlebitis and, possibly, by cellulitis. (Different doctors, different diagnosis - each prescribed the same anti-biotic on each occasion, with was successful in treating it. I will confirm the name of that anti-biotic if/when I can access my medical records.) At the time of the riding accident, some neurological damage occured and resulting in a loss of sensation to the right big toe. This was finally and fully restored after approximately 4-5 years.

The varicose veins on the left leg and mid-calf region have gradually developed with the onset of middle age.

The haemorrhoid problem can be traced back 30 years (1978) to pregnancy and the birth of my son in 1978, and these have been an ongoing problem, and especially acute when affected by IBS, which is largely controlled by diet unless the need to take medication causes an impact on the system, affecting the frequency and consistency of bowel movements.

The oedema varies according the what exercise is possible at a given time, and whether or not, often severe, periods of insomnia occur, and/or whether it is possible at any given time to rest with the weight off the legs.

Thanks for the photographs, which are very useful. These show predominantly thread veins, which are not swollen like varicose veins. The vein on the back of your calf is a varicose vein but is probably obscured from view by your oedema. The oedema on the other hand should be easier to determine improvements or indeed the reverse.

Have you been advised to raise your legs to address the oedema and varicose veins? This is the usual advice people are given by their doctors, nurses and therapists.

Your current blood pressure stats might prove to be valuable also if you have them as this should alter too and should be monitored. Your GP might be interested in what happens with regards to BP.

The Following 2 photographs were taken 5 days after IBT. I have added them to this post so they can be compared more easily on the same page.

Thanks, Andrew. Actually, the photos don't show clearly how prominant and swollen the ones just below my right ankle are in reality. The dark spots usually stand out about 1/4" from the rest of my skin. Those below the right knee, when the oedema isn't obscuring them also, are varicose, trust me! Lol

I have been told to put my feet up in the past, but not necessarily to raise them at an angle. Just to take my weight off them, and not to sit at the PC etc for too long a period without taking a break and walking around to help the circulation. All very well when I can, and I do tend to do that naturally, but of late, yes, I've been sitting too long in one position, and without sufficient breaks.

Will add the BP Stats later and once I have stopped rushing around feeding critters and dealing with chaos here.

These measurements taken after assisting the vet to examine (including internally); inject and tube a two years old pony with gas colic; getting head butted in the left breast (yeah, right on the op site/healing scar); and generally being thrown around a stable! Somehow I think today is not a good day to record blood pressure! Just been back to check the said 'sick pony' before vet phones me back, in case she has deteriorated and we need to consider euthanasia. Said 'sick pony' has now rearranged the stable furniture, kicked the water bucket to bits, done her percussion practice for my amusement all around the kicking boards and doors and farted directly into my face! I was supposed to listen and check her for gut movement, and check her pulse points, and the colour of her gums etc. The gums looked okay when she was attempting to take my hand off and I would say taking her pulse would be a waste of time right now, and until she's ceased the tantrum or circus act! LOL

Not sure what the vet will make of it when she calls, but unless she's eaten locoweed, I'd say she was clearly feeling better, and I'm not about to risk my neck further by scrabbling around looking for fresh bits of dung in the shavings with her throwing tantrums like that! She actually reminds me a bit of the pony that trampled me that time, although that one turned out to have a brain tumour, this one's just a sassy madam feeling better after a colic bout... I take it you agree re. the blood pressure?

BTW, what you said about the bladder/oedema - granny was sucking eggs as a toddler - aye, and squatting in the corners of stables every few minutes when she wasn't peeing herself trying to get out of the way of the flying hoofs! Lol

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