Actually, I think this is an interesting thing: We've been talking about whether a copy is you, but Tagon hasn't actually taken issue with that. He still seems to think that he's the guy who's mother was killed by a nanny attack, and his father is the general.

True, the only thing Tagon seems to take issue with is that those 42 minutes divergence do not belong to him.

Also to me this reads less that Tagon as surprised about the time as he is that the backups have a schedule at all. Which suggests that before his heroic sacrifice it was a personal choice when to make backups and the company has made regular backups for everybody a policy since then. Which in a way makes sense as the value of those backups has just been made extremely clear.

The old Tagon is dead and gone and this one is a replacement. The real issue, aside from those 42 minutes he feels he can't take credit for, is that if he dies, he won't be coming back. He will be replaced in the same way. Tagon isn't upset by the fact he will be replaced, he feels his people deserve to have a Tagon, but he knows that it will be the end for him if it happens, hence he still cares about his own personal survival.

Actually, I think this is an interesting thing: We've been talking about whether a copy is you, but Tagon hasn't actually taken issue with that. He still seems to think that he's the guy who's mother was killed by a nanny attack, and his father is the general.

...The general who popped incendiaries, finishing off his mother and the rest of their extended family and friends... on what was *supposed* to be a joyous occasion.

Well, my point is that there's two philosophical problems here. One, is Tagon the same person who grew up, joined the military, formed a mercenary company, etc. The second is whether he's the same person who used a nuclear hand grenade.

Well, my point is that there's two philosophical problems here. One, is Tagon the same person who grew up, joined the military, formed a mercenary company, etc. The second is whether he's the same person who used a nuclear hand grenade.

My answer to both is "Yes".

As I argued month's ago, Murtaugh lost 180 days* (estimated) and no one got kerfluffled over that. No one has once claimed she isn't the Alex Murtaugh who took a booby trap and died.

* Compared to Kaff's 120 days (presuming 30 day months) and not counting how long she was out. Just counting "You lost 1% of your memories" and putting her age between Thurl's and Kaff's).

Personally, I think you're wrong. Tagon might be the same person who grew up with the General, but he truly isn't the guy with the nuclear hand grenade. Their lifepaths diverged, so you get two different people. Kevyn and his time-clone aren't the same person, either.

Personally, I think you're wrong. Tagon might be the same person who grew up with the General, but he truly isn't the guy with the nuclear hand grenade. Their lifepaths diverged, so you get two different people. Kevyn and his time-clone aren't the same person, either.

I posit that 42 minutes is not as big a difference as you want it to be.

Considering that was the second time Kaff sacrificed himself for others when in a "no win situation"*, I argue there is no difference.

Kaff just underestimates himself.

* And every single time he's pushed past the bounds of endurance, safety, or health to peruse a goal or keep others out of the line of fire? Yeah, it's his nature. Those 42 minutes did nothing more than give the previous iteration a moment to express that nature.

Tagon might be the same person who grew up with the General, but he truly isn't the guy with the nuclear hand grenade. Their lifepaths diverged, so you get two different people.

I think you're missing the point. When Tagon tells the Daggermother "That guy who carried a ship-killer warhead... He was not me!" it doesn't mean that given identical circumstances, he would not do the same thing, it means that This Tagon, given what he knows now, would not have let those circumstances arise. That Tagon ended up carrying that warhead because he had been carrying the idiot ball up to that point. (Specifically, crippling the ship's internal defenses by taking them away from the AI). This Tagon does what any good soldier does, which is to learn from experience and mistakes of others, even if those others happen to have been previous instances of himself.

In that sense, he's not an "identical" clone, not because of the 42 minutes of memories that that he woke up without , but because he woke up with something that the previous version of himself didn't know. Specifically the fact that he had died. Again.

I think you're missing the point. When Tagon tells the Daggermother "That guy who carried a ship-killer warhead... He was not me!" it doesn't mean that given identical circumstances, he would not do the same thing, it means that This Tagon, given what he knows now, would not have let those circumstances arise.

That would be an excellent point if A) Kaff were capable of such levels of introspection and B) that was how the whole "You aren't you" nonsense was framed.

Not saying you're perspective is wrong (it is the best way to separate the ideas of the two without getting into any of the nonsense the comic got into), but I don't think your perspective is the one Kaff is laboring under.

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That Tagon ended up carrying that warhead because he had been carrying the idiot ball up to that point. (Specifically, crippling the ship's internal defenses by taking them away from the AI).

I'm not sure he was carrying that ball. He fully expected Iafa to be able to gravy the decks. If he was carrying any level of idiocy, it's that he wasn't intimately familiar with the restrictions placed upon his ship's AI, that he wasn't aware that Iafa had been hobbled.

My guess is is dislike of reading manuals finally caught up with him, he probably never read the THOOM*.

* Or whatever their manual is called, I couldn't locate it quickly enough in archive diving and have to go to work (and the Ovalkwiki is almost useless these days).

[EDIT]And found.

Though now I think I might be late for work. Sigh, the things my CDO get's me into...

THOOM is the Tough's Handbook of Operations: Master; from which is drawn the THOOG (Tough's Handbook of Operations: Grunt (Pronounced "Thug")), THOOPO (Tough's Handbook of Operations: Platoon Officers), and THOOSO (Tough's Handbook of Operations: Senior Officers).[/EDIT]

That Tagon ended up carrying that warhead because he had been carrying the idiot ball up to that point. (Specifically, crippling the ship's internal defenses by taking them away from the AI).

I'm not sure he was carrying that ball. He fully expected Iafa to be able to gravy the decks. If he was carrying any level of idiocy, it's that he wasn't intimately familiar with the restrictions placed upon his ship's AI, that he wasn't aware that Iafa had been hobbled.

I thought I remembered Kaff being the one who gave the orders to disconnect the AI from the internal gravy--primarily in memory of what Tagii had done when she had that access.

Hmmm ... come to think of it, I don't remember if that was in the comics, or in the discussions here at the 'Zoo.

_________________I used to be Junius Gallio, until I messed up retyping my password in the Great Password Reset. Nice to be back.

Tagon is literally the only person who would have the authority to cripple his bloody ship, so I think it's safe to say it was on his orders. Anybody else doing it would amount to mutiny, because it would allow boarders to take the ship uncontested - OH LOOK. I understand WHY Tagon was handed the ball, as it is the kickoff for this entire "what is me" arc. But don't say he didn't get it. Argh, now I'm all annoyed and thinking about the paintball game again. Apparently Tagon's thought process was "I'm so pleased with how the AI used the gravitics to defend me, I almost hope we have to repel borders! Now, I think I'll go shut down all the gravitics the AI can use to repel borders."

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I think you're missing the point. When Tagon tells the Daggermother "That guy who carried a ship-killer warhead... He was not me!" it doesn't mean that given identical circumstances, he would not do the same thing, it means that This Tagon, given what he knows now, would not have let those circumstances arise.

Nnnooo, I think you're maybe unfamiliar with the whole continuity of consciousness problem. "I wouldn't let that happen" does not fit with any of the continuity problems that have been raised in the strip. I'm really not sure how you're reading it that way at all, even without context.

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I posit that 42 minutes is not as big a difference as you want it to be.

I mean yeah, they haven't diverged much in 42 minutes, but that's not the same thing as saying they're the same person. I don't think the issue has ever been "I wouldn't throw myself into death for my crew," it's "I didn't throw myself into death for my crew." And he DIDN'T. Go back through his past - has he ever died? No. Because for that 'selfstream," there's a jump from backup to wakeup months later.

I mean yeah, they haven't diverged much in 42 minutes, but that's not the same thing as saying they're the same person. I don't think the issue has ever been "I wouldn't throw myself into death for my crew," it's "I didn't throw myself into death for my crew." And he DIDN'T. Go back through his past - has he ever died? No. Because for that 'selfstream," there's a jump from backup to wakeup months later.

That's it! That's Tagon's actual problem! It's not that he didn't die, it's not that he wouldn't die for his crew, it's that he's being asked questions about something he never experienced. He's seeing statues for an event he doesn't remember doing.

Thank you, JohnSmith--that's the insight I needed, and was frustrated with not having.

_________________I used to be Junius Gallio, until I messed up retyping my password in the Great Password Reset. Nice to be back.

Seriously, when I said Iafa was probably hobbled without his knowledge, I wasn't just spitting into the wind. The entire manner in which the Toughs operate was altered and Kaff probably never knew about how much it was altered (though hopefully he's RTFMed by now).

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Go back through his past - has he ever died? No. Because for that 'selfstream," there's a jump from backup to wakeup months later.

You keep acting like those 42 minutes are an issue. They aren't. The minute Kaff is put into a position where there is no win*, he makes a sacrifice play. Every single time.

It is his nature. Now, that isn't to say he can't or won't evolve. He's got all the time in the universe now, but it's seems pretty obvious to me that he hasn't decided to yet. He's under some erroneous notion that he isn't the same person who has always made that choice, which will stymie his capacity to grow as an individual and learn to make different choices.

Now... I'm not saying Kaff can't evolve under the delusion he is operating under. In fact... i kinda like Kaff the way he is and so do his subordinates.

He's already operating at a very high level of "Not In The Kaff", he's also very much a "Lead From The Front" officer, and he is willing to take one for his command. He is every bit the type of brass the grunts want leading them, which right now meshes very well with the style of leadership and strategy his father uses, the type of brass that the grunts will end up hating*.

* It just takes one time shelling your own men on purpose to turn them from worship to hatred.

Really? Where does this knowledge come from? Go ahead and cite a source I'll wait...

I explained my reasoning. Are you suggesting that a reorganization of the company's SOPs resulted in the Toughs intentionally crippling their own ships? Because that's actually MORE stupid than Tagon crippling his own ship out of paranoia. Tagon at least has never shown a terrible amount of trust for AIs in general. It would only require one person being pants-on-head stupid, instead of both Tagons, Kevyn, and Murtagh all agreeing that repelling borders is overrated.

That's not picking up the idiot ball, that's an entire gang being beaten to death with idiot-halfbricks. FFS, it's not like the manual was dropped on Tagon from heaven, he actively helped write the damn thing. I'm afraid, evileeyore, you're going to have to cite your sources, or at least give a rational explanation.

Making a statement is not an "explanation". It's just a statement, one which is unlikely to be actually true (that Kaff being the Captain is the absolute authority on his ship, considering there is a Commodore above him on the command structure).

Nor does it also mean "Kaff knowingly put a safety* on his ship's anti-boarders guns that would be impossible to remove in an emergency". If something becomes operational procedure he may sign off on it without even bothering to read it or understand it (again, we know how much he loooovesreading reports). If it even made it to him as anything other than a single line in a report dense with lines.

Are you suggesting that a reorganization of the company's SOPs resulted in the Toughs intentionally crippling their own ships?

Yes. I made that suggestion when that strip occurred (Iafa stating she'd been safetied). The fact that the Tough's had lost three ships to untrustworthy or crazy AI still hasn't changed... and until recently Iafa was crazy.

And the very last ship lost was under one of the crazy ones!

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...idiot ball...

Just because you say something is 'stupid' doesn't make it so.

Operationally then, the entire UNS is 'stupid' as they intentionally hobbled their AIs following the Core War/Group Mind Insurrection.

Personally, no, I wouldn't have restricted the AI from using gravy within the ship. I'd set the restrictions on the AI core itself and station a guard there to go American Tourister should the AI go rogue. But that may not be possible with the way ships and gravy work...

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FFS, it's not like the manual was dropped on Tagon from heaven, [i]he actively helped write the damn thing.[/i]

He did? Would you like to point to where Kaff was hiding in this strip where Kathryn tells Karl that she and Ennesby have written the new handbooks?

Dude. I linked to that strip in the post you are responding to. Did you even bother to check the links before deciding things are the way you think they are?

Do I need to link to the two times since it's implementation that Kaff has shown ignorance* of what lies within those digital pages? I'll go ahead since one link was in my last post and the other is a mere four days before in the archive.

* Granted there is the implication that at least one of those times something may have changed in the handbook since he died. However... still... it shows Kaff is not an "office" shaped Officer, despite how much one word makes up the other.

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I'm afraid, evileeyore, you're going to have to cite your sources, or at least give a rational explanation.

You really don't like checking links do you? I made it easier this time, I underlined them all.

Keighvin wrote:

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2016-08-25

All I know is that the phrase used is "you locked me out" not "they locked me out" or simply "I was locked out".

I'm interpreting "you" not as "you, Kaff, personally did this" but as "you, in general the organization, did this".

Otherwise, and I am asking a serious question here, why would Kaff be ignorant of the fact that the gravy was safetied? And that unlocking said safety would take an hour or more and that Iafa had no access to the lock?

Are all of you "Idiot Ballers" really arguing that Kaff locked the gravy down and then forgot about it? That he forgot all those bits?

Or is it more reasonable to believe it was procedure imposed by a handbook Kaff never really bothered to read (knowing how much he hates reading that stuff)?

Making a statement is not an "explanation". It's just a statement, one which is unlikely to be actually true (that Kaff being the Captain is the absolute authority on his ship, considering there is a Commodore above him on the command structure).

I mean, technically true that a statement is not an explanation. My statement WAS an explanation of my reasoning though.

Commodores do not generally give orders to engineers on ships under their command. They tell the Captain to do something, and it goes down the chain of command. That's, yaknow, what it's there for. The order would have to go through Tagon. Tagon would have to be aware that this was taking place. People doing it without his orders, as I said, is tantamount to mutiny. I'm not sure how you can contest any of that. Whatever new procedures they have, if Tagon didn't actually read up on them they simply wouldn't be implemented on his ship.

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Nor does it also mean "Kaff knowingly put a safety* on his ship's anti-boarders guns that would be impossible to remove in an emergency"

"Not liking reports" is a far cry from "Didn't read the manual we just spent a week creating and training on." It's true that I misremembered Tagon working on the handbook, but he DID go through the training. I think "We're disabling your AIs ability to repel borders, unless you spend an hour prepping for unexpected borders," would be mentioned. Underlined even. With flashing neon lights.

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Operationally then, the entire UNS is 'stupid' as they intentionally hobbled their AIs following the Core War/Group Mind Insurrection.

We've had, what, one line in the comic talking about the "Hobbling?" Seems far more likely it's a mental "Don't escape" instead of a hardware "Don't defend the ship." You know, since the problem was the AIs defecting, not murdering everybody on board.

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Do I need to link to the two times since it's implementation that Kaff has shown ignorance* of what lies within those digital pages? I'll go ahead since one link was in my last post and the other is a mere four days before in the archive.

* Granted there is the implication that at least one of those times something may have changed in the handbook since he died. However... still... it shows Kaff is not an "office" shaped Officer, despite how much one word makes up the other.

I'm interpreting "you" not as "you, Kaff, personally did this" but as "you, in general the organization, did this".

That's an interpretation. But it's definitely not some decisive support for your view.

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Otherwise, and I am asking a serious question here, why would Kaff be ignorant of the fact that the gravy was safetied? And that unlocking said safety would take an hour or more and that Iafa had no access to the lock?Are all of you "Idiot Ballers" really arguing that Kaff locked the gravy down and then forgot about it? That he forgot all those bits?Or is it more reasonable to believe it was procedure imposed by a handbook Kaff never really bothered to read (knowing how much he hates reading that stuff)?

Tagon forgetting that he ordered Kevyn to restrict the AI, and completely unaware of what would be required to undo it seems reasonable. I find it FAR easier to believe than the entire command team not realizing how bloody stupid it is to fly with an AI that you can't trust to run the internal defenses. The AI ALWAYS has another way to kill you, unless you carefully seal it inside a metal box with no connection to the outside world - in which case, you have a very expensive metal box and a very difficult to fly tin can instead of a warship. Do you know what the lesson that should be learned from all the ship losses the Toughs have had? It's not "disconnect your AI from the interior defenses!" It's stop flying with crazy AIs. Petey was disconnected from everything but the power plant and he managed to end the PDCL. And, as I said, it makes no sense that the handbook caused a major change to the architecture of the AI/internal defenses without a direct order from the Captain saying "We need to implement this particular SOP."

But do you know what I really think? I think Howard Tayler forgot that he'd said Eina-afa could do that, then did a quick patch job when he realized the plot wouldn't work if Eina-afa could simply sweep the decks, or even simply deflect incoming fire. That's why none of it makes sense. It's just one of the limitations of the webcomic form of storytelling - you're always on the first draft, and you can't go back to fix things.

Whatever new procedures they have, if Tagon didn't actually read up on them they simply wouldn't be implemented on his ship.

That's a fancy thing you've decided. Might not hold any water in the Tough's hierarchy though and you should already know that.

They aren't an Earth based military structure, no matter how much Howard borrows from the modern Navy.

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"Not liking reports" is a far cry from "Didn't read the manual we just spent a week creating and training on."

Really. Do I need to link to the two "I haven't read the manual" strips again? Because that is exactly what they show. Kaff hadn't read the manual.

I mean I'll give you that any changes made during the four months he was out wouldn't likely have been read by him in the, what, day and half he was walking before those two strips? But still, he had to ask, and we do know how much he hates reading things (things that aren't the 70 Maxims anyway).

Granted this makes my argument "Kaff hasn't read the manual" actually correct, but you can just keep overlooking it.

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That's an interpretation. But it's definitely not some decisive support for your view.

Nope. But it's a far more straight forward a path than "Kaff forgot something".

Got any evidence that he's forgetful hanging around?

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Tagon forgetting that he ordered Kevyn to restrict the AI...

Why would one Captain order another Captain to do engineering work on his ship? I think you are the one forgetting things, not the characters.

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I find it FAR easier to believe...

Yes. Read those argument's last time around. They didn't much incline me then either. The rights of AIs fluctuates depending on the needs of the story as far as I can see but it generally amounts to "second class citizen" at best and "slave" for the most part. So no, I don't see why the Toughs who had very little options would say "No Iafa, we won't be taking any ex-crazy AIs onboard today, thank you" considering she was the one offering them a fortune and it's possible their patrons (the Oafan) might get upset if they turned her down.

However once taking her onboard, they might just hardware lock her out of being able to weaponize anything she controlled, considering she was still using the gravy for shipboard gravity, that is not just a possibility, but what was actually going on.

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But do you know what I really think? I think Howard Tayler forgot that he'd said Eina-afa could do that, then did a quick patch job when he realized the plot wouldn't work if Eina-afa could simply sweep the decks, or even simply deflect incoming fire. That's why none of it makes sense. It's just one of the limitations of the webcomic form of storytelling - you're always on the first draft, and you can't go back to fix things.

That is more than just likely, it's the only completely logical theory.

Just as a note, she specifically said she's unable to WEAPONIZE gravity onboard ship.

Deflecting incoming paintball rounds is not a weaponized application and in fact would require very little power. A quick shift of gravity even a tenth of a gee could swerve rounds going at paintball speeds (which would naturally be going slower than bullet speeds, because at bullet speeds paintballs may as well BE bullets)

So don't take Iafa's use during paintball to mean the lockout came AFTER. It was probably done during the initial refit that made Broken Wind usable by humanoids in the first place.

They aren't an Earth based military structure, no matter how much Howard borrows from the modern Navy.

That argument boils down to "they don't work that way because my argument requires they not work that way." Not convincing.

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Really. Do I need to link to the two "I haven't read the manual" strips again? Because that is exactly what they show. Kaff hadn't read the manual.

That's not what the strips say, as far as I can see. They say "What's this fancy word?" "Oh, I forgot you've been dead a while." That indicates, as you admitted, that things have changed in the intervening time. Next one is a continuation of the joke. As far as him reading the manual before, The whole point of the "training montage" was that the senior officers were retrained, then retrained their own officers, and so on down the chain of command. Tagon WAS trained, and DID train others, so it's hard to imagine he didn't read the manual.

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And I do suspect it was mentioned.

Tagon skims a lot of things. Two things he's never ignored, to the best of my knowledge, are things with large tactical implications and payment terms.

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Yes, and hobbling was the word that was used. Regardless of what you or I think it means, that was the word used.

I mean, having your brain restricted is pretty worth the term "hobbled," I think we can agree.

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Granted this makes my argument "Kaff hasn't read the manual" actually correct, but you can just keep overlooking it.

We just covered this. Two strips, two gags, neither indicating that Tagon hadn't actually RTFM.

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Got any evidence that he's forgetful hanging around?

"THURL! Do we get payment on Delivery or Distribution? I know it was ONE of those "D" words!"

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Why would one Captain order another Captain to do engineering work on his ship? I think you are the one forgetting things, not the characters.

There are only two people who we've seen work on AIs and major changes to their architecture. Para and Kevyn. Para was demoted to cargo hauler at the time. Para's AI creations also have been unstable as hell. Thurl seems to know just enough to be dangerous... given that the last time he modified an AI it went nuts. Actually, if I remember when first asked by Kevyn he said "I know the basics." Kevyn's the only one of the three that hasn't had an AI go mad on his watch or by his actions. He also doesn't tend to overburden Tagon with details. My argument doesn't depend on which of the three did the modifications in any way, but he seemed a natural choice.

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So no, I don't see why the Toughs who had very little options would say "No Iafa, we won't be taking any ex-crazy AIs onboard today, thank you" considering she was the one offering them a fortune and it's possible their patrons (the Oafan) might get upset if they turned her down.

I'm reading this as "Yes, they are stupid enough to fly with an untrusted AI." Which is fair enough, but it doesn't make a compelling argument overall. It certainly doesn't link up well with the arguments above - how could Tagon not be part of that decision? He might have brought the General in, but he's still one of the highest ranking officers and the captain of the ship in question. That's not even paperwork, that's "Son, how do you feel about flying with the ex-crazy AI?" "Not great, dad."

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Of course I reject it as it's not as much fun to debate.

Can't argue with that!

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Just as a note, she specifically said she's unable to WEAPONIZE gravity onboard ship. ...So don't take Iafa's use during paintball to mean the lockout came AFTER. It was probably done during the initial refit that made Broken Wind usable by humanoids in the first place.

Eh, I don't find this very convincing, either. What we know of these matters is kinda spotty, but the limitation appears not to be energy, but computational power on the part of the AI. All the smarter AIs have been able to do it. We haven't gotten an HV number for Broken Wind's AI, but given the size of the ship and that it demonstrated fine control with the paintballs, I'm inclined to believe that it was perfectly capable of deflecting anything it wanted to. Tagon exulting in "I almost hope we have to repel borders!" seems like a good time to go "Uh, Captain? I can't actually DO that in combat right now," as well.

I'd quote, but I can't rip it out of the huge block on iPad, so I won't.

Since when was fine control a factor? Fine gravy control is less a factor of AI power and more 'number of sources of gravity you can bring to bear', so far as I remember from when it was mentioned in a boarding scenario. During the Ceeta on the Serial Peacemaker days, I think? Or maybe during the TAG days. Anyway, Iafa could deflect the paintballs, but, again, *that isn't a weaponized application*. Weaponization suggests high power levels from the systems in question. Basically, I think Iafa was locked out by restricting the amount of power she could tell the grav systems to use.

The inertiics would still work fine, via their own automatic systems.

Also, Broken Wind is basically a carrier. It's supposed to stand away from the battle while the boats do the heavy lifting. It really isn't too out of line to believe they never thought they'd have to repel boarders without having the grunts there to fight, or a boat nearby to gravy the decks remotely.

The only reason it was POSSIBLE was because of the enormous security hole of Kevyn's lab and it's Teraport cages.