You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

Reading through the thread, this whole argument is based around a definition of feminism you have decided on vs. something very different that Dice has decided on. And as soon as you framed your response that way I lost my appetite for the discussion - when you are convinced somebody is condescending to you, you're not listening anymore (whether they are or not doesn't actually matter).

There were some good points on both sides early in this, but once everybody starting moving the target around to suit their argument, we just fell into the same old internet debate that ends in the illusion of asymmetric insight.

The point is that there are lots of situations where inequity of the sexes can affect men negatively, just as there are situations which affect women negatively, yet whenever these situations are spoken about a lot of people say, "So you're saying we should let men treat women like crap?" That's not at all what we were saying.

That's the "I know your argument better than you do", and whether your actual point is correct or not is moot. The point is nobody is listening anymore, and nobody can possibly be persuaded one way or another if they've stopped listening.

Forums are terrible for this type of discussion anyway. These are much better over a drink with the person in front you.

EDIT: I'm also not picking on you Ashton, sorry if it comes off this way. I'm just not sure ANYBODY involved in the discussion is really listening anymore, which is why I'm thinking it is probably best to let it die. Which paradoxically I guess I did not help. I'll show myself out! :P

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

Reading through the thread, this whole argument is based around a definition of feminism you have decided on vs. something very different that Dice has decided on. And as soon as you framed your response that way I lost my appetite for the discussion - when you are convinced somebody is condescending to you, you're not listening anymore (whether they are or not doesn't actually matter).

There were some good points on both sides early in this, but once everybody starting moving the target around to suit their argument, we just fell into the same old internet debate that ends in the illusion of asymmetric insight.

The point is that there are lots of situations where inequity of the sexes can affect men negatively, just as there are situations which affect women negatively, yet whenever these situations are spoken about a lot of people say, "So you're saying we should let men treat women like crap?" That's not at all what we were saying.

That's the "I know your argument better than you do", and whether your actual point is correct or not is moot. The point is nobody is listening anymore, and nobody can possibly be persuaded one way or another if they've stopped listening.

Forums are terrible for this type of discussion anyway. These are much better over a drink with the person in front you.

EDIT: I'm also not picking on you Ashton, sorry if it comes off this way. I'm just not sure ANYBODY involved in the discussion is really listening anymore, which is why I'm thinking it is probably best to let it die. Which paradoxically I guess I did not help. I'll show myself out! :P

I don't think you're picking on me at all, this is valuable information I'm getting. The reason I feel I can bring this stuff up is because this forum is honestly full of intelligent people who WON'T condescend to me and won't just tell me that it's not their job to educate me, so I can get some decent viewpoints out of this discussion. It really irritating that modern activism of noninvolvement which takes a stance of not having viable discussion and just people talking over each other, it's setting us down a bad path.

Though I agree this is best done over a drink. Very rare chances for that though. :P

I don't think you're picking on me at all, this is valuable information I'm getting. The reason I feel I can bring this stuff up is because this forum is honestly full of intelligent people who WON'T condescend to me and won't just tell me that it's not their job to educate me, so I can get some decent viewpoints out of this discussion. It really irritating that modern activism of noninvolvement which takes a stance of not having viable discussion and just people talking over each other, it's setting us down a bad path.

Though I agree this is best done over a drink. Very rare chances for that though. :P

Overarching point here is that really having an instructive debate is HARD for us because our brains are not wired for it, so it is easy for things to end up like this, especially on forums where you're not getting the other interactions that come with seeing a person's reaction, etc.

Also I have found that a frosty beverage tends to take the edge off of even the most potent debates. :D

as a female most of the things i hate that in turn make me hatedislike men are more social issues that can only changed over time. like relegating a female to the back of a game cover because it would supposedly sell less if she was anywhere on the front.

Logged

“Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.”

as a female most of the things i hate that in turn make me hatedislike men are more social issues that can only changed over time. like relegating a female to the back of a game cover because it would supposedly sell less if she was anywhere on the front.

That makes me dislike the marketing folks, nog men in general. And the focus groups, maybe. I wonder what's happening in those heads...