Ministry Today – Serving and empowering church leaders

Francis Chan, senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in
Simi Valley, Calif., is serious about making the church look more like Jesus
and actually doing what the Bible says we should be doing. Beyond highlighting
him for our cover story in November/December 2008, we
spoke with Francis about everything from lukewarm Christianity to Joel Osteen
to the state of today’s church.

Ministry
Today: Besides the
catchy song connection, what’s the meaning behind the title of your book, Crazy
Love? Why did you choose that title?

Francis Chan: We chose the term “crazy” because when you
look at the gospel it’s really a ridiculous story—that the creator of the
universe would watch His Son be tortured for us. We can’t even fathom having
that kind of love for someone, especially if we were that great and powerful.
We hear the story so often that it loses its shock. It’s crazy, so our response
should be crazy as well. If we’re showing Him, casual lukewarm, complacent
love, it doesn’t make sense. Why did the people in the Book of Acts give up
everything they had? Why didn’t they care about their stuff? Because they saw a
man rise from the grave. Now if they saw a man rise from the grave and nothing
changed in their lives, that wouldn’t make sense. Yet, that’s exactly what we
do.

Ministry
Today: What’s
“spiritual amnesia” and what can be done to combat it?

Chan: There are times when we are so struck by
the truth of God’s Word and the truth of God’s being, and yet a couple hours
later, we’re so into a Lakers game we forget all about God. It is because we
live in America and have a love of entertainment. In the words of John Piper we
“amuse ourselves to death.” So that’s where the enemy hits. It’s similar to
going on a mission trip. We have such amazing experiences, and we come home
saying, ‘I swear I’ll never forget that.’ Then a week later we forget it and
life is back to normal. That’s spiritual amnesia.

Ministry
Today: You tip a
lot of sacred cows in your book, even writing that lukewarm Christians are
grateful for comfort and luxuries.

Chan: A lot of people have determined what they
want to believe. So when they go to the Scriptures they go in making them say
what they want them to say. I would love to just take care of myself, have
enough retirement for my family and me. That makes sense to me. It’s logical to
me, and I have the means to pull it off. I could very easily make a case for
that biblically and say it’s OK for me to do that.

But when I really read the Scriptures as objectively as I can and ask,
‘What’s it really saying?’ it’s nothing of that sort. It’s all about caring for
the least of these, sacrificing and risking my life. I can’t be thinking about
what my life will look like in 30 years if my true brother in Christ is dying
right now and will die this week unless I get food to him. In America we try to
mesh what is American with what is biblical, and we come up with this church we
have today.

Ministry
Today: One of your
chapters is titled “Your Best Life … Later.” Is that a conscious refutation of
some of the more popular teaching out there?

Chan: Absolutely. I just think it’s just a bunch
of bull. I even played with the idea of titling the book that. I think it’s
such a dangerous heresy that’s out there that says God just wants you to be
rich and healthy. It goes against the way Christ lived and against the way He
told the disciples they’d have to live. I don’t want to be this person who is
against anyone who is rich, but I just think if you’re a Christian you don’t
really care about money. Why would we lure people into the Christian life
promising physical riches? Isn’t God enough? Isn’t the fact that I’ve got a
relationship with Almighty God enough? Jesus’ message was you should want to
follow Me even if it means losing everything. That’s what Scripture teaches.

Ministry
Today: You write
that we tend to turn saints into celebrities. Being the pastor of a large
church do you fear that could happen with you?

Chan: Yes. It’s happening with the speaking and
now with this book. It’s weird. I hate all that stuff. I have to admit
sometimes it’s nice to be recognized. But for me personally I’m so aware that
at any second my life could end. That’s something that’s been so real to me
ever since I was a kid. I think it’s because of the deaths of my parents. I’m
very strange this way, but I think about death probably every day. I think:
“This could be it. Am I ready?”

At the moment of death nothing else matters. I’m standing before a holy
God. That’s the reality. And I think about it a lot. It’s not a fear. I
couldn’t care less if I die. But I do think about it a lot. Maybe it’s because
I do funerals or maybe because a lot of my family has died, but I’m constantly
aware of death in a sober, humbling way. … I think the Lord has given me that
awareness as a gift so I don’t get stuck in pride. When I come before Him I
say, “God, I could be coming home to You today.”

Ministry
Today: Your mother
died giving birth to you. Your father was distant and physically abusive. Talk
about how that affected your view of God and how you got past that.

Chan: I always gravitated to those passages about
God’s holiness. They click with me because I understand fear and respect for
authority. I also think the Asian culture teaches that. But understanding the
intimate side really changed when I had kids of my own. I remember the moment
it clicked. I took my daughter out of school one Friday and took her camping,
just the two of us. There was so much laughter, and I’d never seen her so
happy. She was just jumping, screaming and laughing. And I remember how great I
felt, that I had made her happy. At that moment I wondered: ‘Does God feel that
way about me?’ Does He think of me that way?’ It was all the fatherly
attributes I’d seen in Scripture but didn’t really understand until I
experienced it myself.

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Ministry
Today: What’s the
number one problem you experience in your church getting men mobilized? Or, is
there a problem?

Chan: There hasn’t been that much a problem here.
We’re actually doing quite well in that area. But we’ve emphasized strong male
leadership from the start. Men rise to the challenge when they’re told that
they need to. We’ve always placed the responsibility on the men. I’m very quick
to put everything on my own shoulders. If my wife or kids aren’t acting a
certain way I don’t blame them. I’m supposed to be leading. I immediately look
to myself. It’s my issue. There’s this concept of biblical manhood that a lot
of people are scared to preach. But I’m not saying that there aren’t others out
there preaching this. I’m not trying to get into a bashing session. Unless
you’re talking about Joel Osteen.

Ministry
Today: OK, I’ll
send him after you.

Chan: (Laughs) I think I could take him.

Ministry
Today: I’m not
sure. I read he can bench 300 pounds.

Chan: No way! Are you serious?

Ministry
Today: That’s what
I read.

Chan: That’s funny.

Ministry
Today: He’s pretty
wiry, I guess. One more question. This is a little more serious. What do you
see as the number one challenge for the North American church over the next 10
years?

Chan: I think the
number one challenge is to get the church to really be the church. The church
was meant to be a light. People were supposed to live so differently in the
church. On any given Sunday you can go to church and then go into your
neighborhood and meet unbelievers who have more love, joy, peace, patience and
kindness than the people you sat in the pews with. If the Holy Spirit is literally
in these people at church, shouldn’t there be an obvious difference between
them and those who are spiritually dead? And I don’t see that. For so many
years my non-Christian friends were more giving and dependable. How’s the world
supposed to believe that something has happened to us if we’re no different
than anyone else?

—Interview
by Drew Dyck

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