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You’ve finally decided to try Linux. The installation went without a hitch (they usually do these days) and you’ve got a shiny new desktop sitting in front of you. What do you do next? It’s a whole world of limitless possibilities. Thanks to the nature of open-source development, thousands of applications, games, tools and utilities can be installed with just a few mouse clicks. None of these will be shareware, commercial or sponsored through advertising. They'll be functional, full-blown applications. And there's a lot to look at. The trick is knowing where to start.

I liked this article. It's a very practical guide for people new to Linux who are going to hit that desktop for the first time and have a lot of "But, how do I...?" questions. The author outlines each task, gives the basics, and then leaves things alone. He didn't fall into the common trap of giving the newbies information overload.

Excellent article for those who have just made the switch to Linux and even those who have no intention of switching who are just curious to see what Linux is like.

1 - Because newbies want to start the computer, get their mp3s from their windows machine and listen to them right away.2 - Because newbies want to start the computer, insert a divx and see it right away.3 - Because newbies want to start their computer, open a window and have the desktop effects right away (even if they have an nvidia graphics card).

I guess these are just 3 reasons... If you dwell into the whole debian "no non-free stuff is installed", you'll probably find quite a few more interesting packages missing.I prefer Ubuntu to Mint or Debian, but still I can appreciate the effort that Mint developers are making. I just wish more people in the open-source community would think like them.

1 - Because newbies want to start the computer, get their mp3s from their windows machine and listen to them right away.2 - Because newbies want to start the computer, insert a divx and see it right away.3 - Because newbies want to start their computer, open a window and have the desktop effects right away (even if they have an nvidia graphics card).

All necessary software can easily be installed during the Debian installation process. What's wrong with that?

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I bet when Cheetahs race and one of them cheats, the other one goes "Man, you're such a Cheetah!" and they laugh & eat a zebra or whatever.

No linux newbie in their right mind would get rid of Windows and go strictly linux right off the bat. They would either keep windows on another machine or dual boot. You need some place familiar that works to call home while you are researching possible issues you may have.

(what happens if your wireless card doesn't work? you won't be able to google a solution unless you have access to a machine/os where it does work)

BTW:wouldn't it be more correct to say when it doesn't work? Wifi connectivity is still a major (and completely unnecessary) challenge for many new Linux users. We can thank the hardware manufacturers for that.

Get a USB adapter with an Atheros chipset and stop being such a jackass blaming Linux for vendor failures. Simple, no?

No. Especially not for a newbie.

Most manufacturers don't willingly provide information about which chipsets they use. Many vendors also periodically switch chipsets, occasionally doing so within a given product model's lifecycle.

I can't speak for the rest of the World, but in the US, Broadcomm chipsets (which are not at all Linux friendly) make up about 75% of what gets installed or is readily available.

IMHO, the major distros have two basic options for dealing with all the wifi hassles. They either need to figure out a way to resolve their stalemate with the manufacturers over getting workable drivers; or they can "bring the battle to their opponent's doorstep" by manufacturing their own affordable wifi hardware.

I'll bet if Shuttleworth (and some other NIX heavyweights) announced they intended to put some serious money into doing just that, the bulk of the hardware vendors would soon fall in line. Especially if said 'penguin-friendly' NICs also came with drivers for Windows.

Get a USB adapter with an Atheros chipset and stop being such a jackass blaming Linux for vendor failures. Simple, no?

No. Especially not for a newbie.

Most manufacturers don't willingly provide information about which chipsets they use. Many vendors also periodically switch chipsets, occasionally doing so within a given product model's lifecycle.

I can't speak for the rest of the World, but in the US, Broadcomm chipsets (which are not at all Linux friendly) make up about 75% of what gets installed or is readily available.

IMHO, the major distros have two basic options for dealing with all the wifi hassles. They either need to figure out a way to resolve their stalemate with the manufacturers over getting workable drivers; or they can "bring the battle to their opponent's doorstep" by manufacturing their own affordable wifi hardware.

I'll bet if Shuttleworth (and some other NIX heavyweights) announced they intended to put some serious money into doing just that, the bulk of the hardware vendors would soon fall in line. Especially if said 'penguin-friendly' NICs also came with drivers for Windows.

Just a thought!

[rant]This page is the first result in Google for "wireless adapter chipset", give me a break...

My last wireless adapter was a TP-Link w/ an atheros chipset (confirmed at the aforementioned website I might add), which cost me I think $29AU *in* Australian (where prices for just about everything are typically inflated out the wazoo), I really can't see a lack of affordable USB Wi-Fi adapters myself...[/rant]

[rant]This page is the first result in Google for "wireless adapter chipset", give me a break...

My last wireless adapter was a TP-Link w/ an atheros chipset (confirmed at the aforementioned website I might add), which cost me I think $29AU *in* Australian (where prices for just about everything are typically inflated out the wazoo), I really can't see a lack of affordable USB Wi-Fi adapters myself...[/rant]

Ehtyar.

Yoiks!

Hi Dr. E.

Umm...okay.

[/non-rant:- start]

1. I thought we were talking about people were completely new to Linux and coming straight from Windows a moment ago. Many of them wouldn't have a clue about wifi chipset drivers. And most of those wouldn't have the patience or know-how to hack around with them once they did.

2. Every time I participate in one of our local Linux 'install fests,' the single biggest challenge is getting wifi to work reliably even when the right drivers are correctly installed. (And none of us who are assisting are newbies by any stretch.) Maybe it's different where you are. Where I am, it's still an issue. Especially since most people I'm dealing with are doing the install on their old machines.

3. When asked, wifi problems routinely come up as the single biggest showstopper issue for would be Linux adopters. Many people get NIX installed on their laptops only to zap it a week later when they still can't get their wireless NIC to work reliably. So while it may be cathartic to snarl at them, it still remains a barrier to Linux adoption. And that is not the fault of the poor sod who's just trying to install Ubuntu off some LinuxFormat DVD he bought at a bookstore. So until something as basic as wireless connectivity "just works" as the saying goes, it's a Linux problem. Or at least it is if one of our espoused goals is to bring NIX to the masses.

4. Regarding chipset info in general, take a look at the manufacturer's websites and product boxes. Last I looked there was very little (if anything) on the websites - and absolutely nothing on the product boxes - to indicate which chipsets and versions were being used. So while Mr. Heinz's webpage deserves credit for the effort that went into it, it still isn't information that can be readily obtained from the manufacturers.

5. Glad to see things are going so well in Australia. I hope to visit it someday.

I'll give you that wireless is far from perfect on Linux, but I think that that, in-and-of itself, is why troubleshooting wireless on Linux is one of the better documented aspects of it.

It takes almost no searching skillz to determine that atheros chipsets are what you want on Linux, and then as I pointed out above you should have little if any trouble finding yourself a wireless adapter. If you can manage it, have a poke around the web to determine if there are any pre-existing issues with your distro regarding that specific adapter (assuming your distro and adapter are popular enough to have likely been used together in the past) and you should be set. (clearly, I'm no proponent of trying to get devices with no foss drivers to work on Linux)

If a newbie can't suffer though issues of this nature, they're in for a world of hurt when something breaks later on (what are they gonna do with a python backtrace when one of the thousand front-ends coded in it inevitably goes bottom-up, for example). My point being, wireless may be a bitch to get going, but I think it's the random nonsensical failures or difficulties that you'll encounter later on (and on an alarmingly frequent basis) that are really the desktop Linux killers.

I suppose my overall point, after re-reading your last post Hertz Man, is that if you're unwilling or unable to spend copious amounts of time searching for solutions to the multitude of issues you'll face as a desktop Linux user, then desktop Linux probably isn't what you're after. Linux just isn't for the elementary computer user. A Linux "beginner" should be a PC user with a few years worth of experience under his/her belt.

Note: I really hate giving the "Linux isn't for you" speech, I've heard it several times myself from some elitist doucherocket it some Linux chatroom who's there to troll, not help, but at some point, with a user lacking a certain level of experience, and/or amount of time, it is simply the case.

Note: I really hate giving the "Linux isn't for you" speech, I've heard it several times myself from some elitist doucherocket it some Linux chatroom who's there to troll, not help, but at some point, with a user lacking a certain level of experience, and/or amount of time, it is simply the case.

Well...that's pretty much what the Macintosh crowd says about OSX, so I guess it's not the first time somebody's made that argument.

And maybe it's just me...but...I still can't see how being told to "piss off" by someone who 'genuinely cares' is any more helpful (or less hurtful) than hearing it from "some elitist doucherocket in some Linux chatroom who's there to troll..." Both hurt the cause - and neither advances the goal.

Perhaps I see things differently because I'm in the tech support business. I firmly believe that anything that is an ongoing problem for the average user is indicative of a fundamental design flaw in the system rather than a personal failing on the part of the user.

According to Uncle 40Hz's Rainy Day Fun Book of System Design: In any well-designed system, an exception to the rule must always be the exception - not the rule.

Ian Fleming said it even better. When he worked for the Britain's Naval Intelligence during the war, he said there was a saying about how to classify a reported incident. It ran something like: Once is chance. Twice is happenstance. But three times is enemy action!

Bingo! Beneath the chuckle is a brilliant insight. It's not the problem itself - it's the repeatability that's important. Every system - good or bad -will experience problems. The key difference is that a bad system will experience the same problems over and over.

I've since adapted that concept for my own use. The 'suitable for family viewing' version goes something like this:

If I'm clobbered by something once; or I hear two different people complain about the same thing; or one person runs into the same hassle on three separate occasions - it's a problem that needs fixing on the system level.

Just my 2ΒΆ

--------

Addendum:

The fact that certain cards can be cajoled into working with Linux has no bearing on my earlier point about suggesting that one of the big distros should consider manufacturing a NIX friendly wifi card. It's an action primarily directed at breaking the stalemate with wifi card manufacturers.

I was at a meeting about a year ago with one of the big network device manufacturers. I eventually wound up speaking to one of their senior engineers about why they didn't offer a native Linux driver. He said there were no technical reasons why they couldn't. (He even went so far as to characterize developing a native Linux driver as "a summer intern programming project.") He said the real reason was that his company wanted to minimize its tech support costs - so it had an official policy of not supporting any OS other than Windows in order to cut down on the number of support calls received.

Now, if whoever made a NIX friendly card just supplied drivers for Linux, it wouldn't change anything. But if their competitively priced card also shipped with Windows drivers, that would "drop an alligator across the transom" since it would now be in direct competition. If a buyer had a choice between a NIC that supported both operating systems, as opposed to only Windows, the more versatile card would have a distinct market advantage as long as its price and reliability remained competitive. And with the low cost of mass producing electronics, that shouldn't pose a problem.

Kodak did the same thing when the DX Camera Autosensing Codes (CAS) came out for 35mm film. Kodak wanted all cameras to use the CAS feature. Since that would require a reader be built into the camera itself, most of the big camera manufacturers were reluctant (citing costs) to do so. Kodak countered by saying that Kodak was absolutely committed to the DX standard, and while Kodak hadn't manufactured a camera since they stopped producing their landmark Brownie camera many years before - there was absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so if that's what it would take to hurry the adoption of CAS along.

And maybe it's just me...but...I still can't see how being told to "piss off" by someone who 'genuinely cares' is any more helpful (or less hurtful) than hearing it from "some elitist doucherocket in some Linux chatroom who's there to troll..." Both hurt the cause - and neither advances the goal.

It depends on the goal.

For example, I would often add the phrase: "I can't speak for the other guy"

--- but if this were me, I would say the comment because it would pursue the goal of sending to the other guy that I considered both my and their plight and that there just too much current going against the alternative right now that you're better off not opting for Linux because even if you get passed this, you most likely won't get past the other problems with the same ease. (and this ease is already a headache)

It wouldn't have been necessary for me to say "I can't speak..." because I already added "if this were me" but maybe because of the model of politeness and also because I want to add some gravity to my comments compared to a troll, I would add these words in order to pursue a goal that I cared more than your average troll.

Of course, at the same time, this is really a bad example because I'm on the other side of the fence. I'm not a Linux expert, I'm a PC newbie that's trying to get into Linux but also barely touches it because of issues like these. (In fact, my original reply before deciding not to post it was to seriously state that I was expecting the topic to be about which Linux howto books to buy and have on hand instead of these more obvious stuff in the article)

End of the day, Ehtyar can speak for himself on why he chose to phrase things like this but I'm just saying my own 2 cents here because it's reminiscent of your addendum 40hz but at the same time, maybe because this is a forum post, and not a world wide company changing situation, you might not have noticed the similarity of the problems of how convenience, motive and "what's in it for me" can do to form one's goal and cause.

It's useless from a community goal because I can't touch both of you guys with regards to your tech/company knowledge and experience with this community but from the pursuit of a better documentation that is not based on technical level but is like a Linux master writing a free kid's howto book instead of what they perceive as the ultimate documentation in details and clarity to their audience, there's some notability in focusing on both of your 2 cents post.

It's also related to the topic because one must wonder how valuable such article is.

From an information side and a design side and a discovery side, it isn't wrong.

...but from the advancing the goal perspective with regards to not just Linux but other OS's like Haiku, BSD and alternative Windows shell replacements... it's important that everyone be clear on what the cause is and what the goal is because sometimes just like companies, professional goals are different from the over-arching company goals that's supposedly simple to get everyone else on board.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 09:44:07 PM by Paul Keith »

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I'm wondering - if I were to install Linux-(or whatever) on a machine and back up any important data &/or keep it on a separate partition:- Can I do regular image-backups of the OS so that if something goes wrong I can just restore the last functional version of the OS?

That way I wouldnt have to try figure out how to fix "a python backtrace when one of the thousand front-ends coded in it inevitably goes bottom-up, for example".

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that usability (or lack thereof) is an issue on Linux, but until it improves, what's a newbie to do? I'm a user level sysadmin myself. I can't imagine a tenth of my users using Linux...nor would I imagine anyone would tolerate the productivity loss.

I'd like to clarify that I've never actually said "If you can't do this, then Linux isn't for you", that just happens to be the most direct way of expressing yourself (though it also makes you sound like an elitist dick). I have, on ocassion, conveyed to friends that perhaps Linux isn't what they were searching for in terms of an alternative to Windows.

I'm not sure I understand the negativity around using Linux or thinking that using Linux is hard. I find it better than Windows for newbies as long as they are only really need progs for the most common uses and don't want to get under the bonnet. It's easy for them to add progs that are for less common uses - but there's not such a wide range of less common options as Windows and if they are fussy about those it may not suit. Easy for them to check that it works with their hardware with a CD before installing. I think this group always struggles somewhat with Windows (even when they have got used to it) and rich, and want to be cool, members of it are probably always easily tempted by Macs. I find that they are really keen on Linux when they have been using it a while and find updating and installing new apps really easy; in Windows, this type of user rarely learns how to find/try free apps and either sticks with what they have or buy what they see advertised or in a store.

I think the real problem is with light duty long-term Windows users who have a need to twiddle and tweak and then get stuck with not understanding what to do next to cure a problem (that has a fair chance of being self-created). They don't really want to understand what the problem is (just how to cure it) and have an aversion to learn about the underlying differences between Windows and Linux.

There's also a bit of a problem with heavy duty long-term Linux users who are anti Windows (and Windows users) and look down on newbies to Linux who don't have what they see as the Linux spirit of inquiry and self-reliance.

For the first group, the wifi issue doesn't exist. Linux either worked with their hardware or it didn't. If it didn't they're not using Linux. If they are using Linux and try wifi and it doesn't work, they'll try a wired solution. They're not easily tempted into a big jump.

The second group may well get stuck as described and then meet the third group to no-one's benefit.

People prepared to get stuck in (ie usually those used to heavier duty tweaking in Windows) won't see it as an issue. They'll find a solution easily enough. That solution may be uninstalling Linux because it doesn't do what they want easily enough immediately, but it probably won't put them off trying it again in the future when they have different hardware or whatever. They are more likely to see OSs as tools they can choose between rather than belief systems.

I do agree that laptops are more problematic for Linux than desktops, but the first group will probably never try it because they'll be content to stick with the OS that came on it. (It's a lot more common for newbies to have a desktop that doesn't have a functioning/functional OS than a laptop without one).

I'm not sure I understand the negativity around using Linux or thinking that using Linux is hard. I find it better than Windows for newbies as long as they are only really need progs for the most common uses and don't want to get under the bonnet. It's easy for them to add progs that are for less common uses - but there's not such a wide range of less common options as Windows and if they are fussy about those it may not suit.

To an extent that's true and even as a newbie Linux user, I tend to say that alot but the reality is that the necessary programs and expectations for such programs has lifted.

It hurts alot also that most users who just want their OS to work also prefer to play games. (and not just "any" games)

Setting that issue aside, OpenOffice is not MS Office and even ribbon-based MS Office is not MS Office.

For the more developed and bigger companies, the gap is probably smaller but many little companies around the world don't even focus on training their people properly to switch to another Office Suite and there are many who don't really understand MS Office either. They just eventually were shown some advanced commands to make them get done with their work.

That's already a huge gap let alone giving these users the view of terminal screens, forcing them to set a password even for their Desktop usage (when many have just one easy to brute force password) and even every support that comes to Windows.

Quote

I think the real problem is with light duty long-term Windows users who have a need to twiddle and tweak and then get stuck with not understanding what to do next to cure a problem (that has a fair chance of being self-created). They don't really want to understand what the problem is (just how to cure it) and have an aversion to learn about the underlying differences between Windows and Linux.

No. The real problem is support.

Support from companies but even support from most techies.

It's not just aversion. The number of people who know how to do advanced stuff on Windows for example far outweighs Linux support.

You'd have to be lucky to personally know a Linux user who would want to help you or you're forced to reading.

At a certain point, it's just a losing battle even when you ignore most of the OS centric tweaks.

You would even get fewer support on how to use OpenOffice, GIMP even just getting to understand how to make a media player in Linux work like Windows Media Player considering many people don't even know what a Media Player is and think Windows Media Player is some catch-all program.

The time gap is just too large and the "salt doll" -ness of the topic is just too wide.

For example when I was still using Linux, I tried to manage the issue and even exhausted all the different apps I could find on package manager repositories.

Unfortunately it's not that cut and dry.

I had to wonder what Scribus was for example but I can't just ask that without getting the package manager definition back as an answer.

Having not known how to use Photoshop, GIMP was just a pain to understand.

Then having gotten used to the speed of MS Office, OpenOffice is just another beast to tackle.

Then there's the whole deal with EMACs and VIM being so awesome that you have to learn them.

Then there's the fact that you're either left with Leafpad for ultra fast notepadding or you're stuck with OpenOffice if you don't know how to work LATEX.

Then there's the OS issue.

It literally stacks up beyond the OS-centric issue for any newbies.

It's not even aversion anymore, it's like trying to learn how to start a bon-fire when you're smack dab in the middle of the city and is surrounded with a stove, a fast food restaurant, maybe even a personal chef depending on how rich you are...

When you have that environment, Windows is not perfect but newbies eventually have to ask themselves whether they are trying to switch because it's better or because they have somehow been lured into valuing their OS more so than they originally would have.

There's a reason Linux is near impossible to switch to if you don't have a dual boot of a previous Windows installation. The environment is so different that one has to have the previous environment but if they have the previous one and that one's sole weakness is lack of pre-installed apps from a fresh install and lack of security and the other alternative doesn't completely provide them with an overall better desktop environment... Linux is not there yet. They still have to evolve beyond the paradigm shift that is "Ubuntu = Linux has arrived for the desktop/Linux can be designed with newbies in mind."

« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 08:31:22 PM by Paul Keith »

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My last wireless adapter was a TP-Link w/ an atheros chipset (confirmed at the aforementioned website I might add), which cost me I think $29AU *in* Australian (where prices for just about everything are typically inflated out the wazoo), I really can't see a lack of affordable USB Wi-Fi adapters myself...[/rant]

Ehtyar.

Yoiks!

Hi Dr. E.

[/non-rant:- start]

1. I thought we were talking about people were completely new to Linux and coming straight from Windows a moment ago. Many of them wouldn't have a clue about wifi chipset drivers. And most of those wouldn't have the patience or know-how to hack around with them once they did.

I am a Newbie to Linux and install Ubuntu, like the interface and the logic. But the Wifi problem stop me to further explore the world of Linux. Windows is not perfect either, have four computer's, printer and TV on WIFI and that's was not a walk in the park to set up . The Wifi chipset problem in Linux was to much struggel so I wait for further development in this area.