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A differing view does not concern me much provided it is grounded in truth so, tell me where I'm wrong.

And sure, I pick on those three talk show hosts because all three are bought and paid for by the very people that are behind the corruption that is bringing this country to its knees and those people are not necessarily democrats or republicans, in fact, I doubt they give a crap about political leaning. What they care about is being able to buy influence. The three big talk show hosts are nothing more than mouthpieces. Anyway, you seem to think that I am liberal in nature but in fact, I am not. Neither am I what poses for a conservative by todays standards. A good deal of the problem is that they have the people choosing sides in a one sided contest. Its not even us against them anymore. Its pretty much all them.

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As is usual, a discussion about the real decline, and the reasons for it quickly turns into a right-only view of backlash and name calling.
What is it about the right-wing believers that can't except the simple facts and truths of a subject? While I might understand it a bit if your view was coming from some position in the corporate wealth of America, but you like so many others appear to be part of the working class, is that not so? Is it that perhaps your position in "the trades" is such that you're quite comfortable with the free-enterprise rewards that "capitalism" as given you? Perhaps it doesn't matter that you had to leave the east coast, as someone put here put it. Perhaps you don't think this is ever going to come to the west coast!

Look, I agree that a lot of what has happened is because of industrial and consumer evolution. Truely, we no longer have a need for making cigars by hand, or all that machinery for making office data-processing machines that handle punch cards. Nor do we need typewriters, and many of the other things that we once made here in my area. But, we still need compressors for industry and we still need optical fiber, and ceramics and catalytic converters and the countless other things that places like Corning, IBM, Singer-Link, Ingersoll-Rand, and the hundreds of other manufacturing places that used to employ us by the tens of thousands.

IBM was the dinasour that's brain was so small it couldn't change to the business it's own division created... the PC. That it spun off years ago to Lenovo and is now made in China? Why is that? Why did they dump thousands of highly skilled employees and high-tech manufacturing facilities, that made very good profit? It did so because it was stupid, top heavy, and greedy to maximize profit by having Chinese workers do the job, instead of American workers!

Why did Corning walk away from all the communities that invested heavily into that company's expansion plans with tax-payer funded infrastructure, training, etc., only to have Corning walk away during the tech bust, and then invest several BILLION in China, almost immediately afterwards. Here in Corning, it's torn down several buildings, manufacturing for kitchen products that still sell very well... except now they are mad in China. It wasn't because we didn't want to pay the price; we did! People bought Corell and Corning ware all over the world... but Corning decided it was more profitable to have it made in China. It didn't get cheaper, it simply got made elsewhere.

The same is true of my own employer. They decided, not the customers! As a matter of fact, even our Asian customers wanted "made in USA", and they were willing to pay a premium for that. But, like so many other companies, it was the executives who decided in thier greed, that it was more profitable to do it in China. And to that end they even got government encentives to do so.

So yes, we no longer make "buggy whips" and so those kinds of jobs disappear. But we still buy compressors, shoes, clothing, computers, TV's, radios, car parts, and plumbing and electrical supplies, and we still need steel and hundreds of thousands of other items, that were once made in America, and for no other reason than broadening our profit margins have they moved to China! The facts are clear, and history has proven that unbridled "capitalism" is a detriment to society as a whole. We've seen it in Britain at the turn of the last Century, we've see our own economy collapse and rise and collapse again under uncontrolled capitalism. Uncontrolled capitalism is in fact what has brought Communism and even Fascism to our enemies and to our own doorsteps.

In fact, our industrial and banking leaders have even managed to "Capitalize" on that! We invested more money in Nazi Germany during the late 20's and 30's than we invested any where else... actually, the U.S. investors gave Germany twice as much, as they gave all the rest of Europe in that period. Anyone want to guess which political party was behind that?!!! You don't even want to talk about Japan, where do you think all that iron and steel and coal came from that built the fleet and the airplanes that came back at us at Pearl Harbour.. .guess who brought us that?

When capitalism becomes so strong that the rich are allowed to steal from the working class, to the point that we loose our jobs, our benefits, and our very homes and clean environments, we see turmoil and rebellion and then comes extremes of both right- and left-wing political movements. And each time this happens, it is the sons and daughters that suffer, its the old people and the weak and poor that suffer, and the rich... well the rich always makes out. They pay off the politicians, they off-shore their assets, and they even send their children abroad to escape the responsibilities of loyalty and citizenship.

This was the case of Britain in the late 1800's and early 1900's, it was the case here in America too. The late 1800's, in the late 20's, in the late 60's, and again today. It is the working class that looses, and the super rich that gains. History proves that and yet because it is the rich that controls the news and the government and so a large extent is envied by the poor and us working stiffs, we are blind to their doing and it's like being babies that see no wrong in their parents or in the fantasies of angels. We want to believe, even as they are taking away our lives.

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And every day, the industry paid sycophants, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity et.al. continually extoll the so called virtues of capitalism and the free market. The problem is that the free market ain't free. Never was and never will be. The sad thing is that most Americans buy into this crap and truly believe that they are free to persue their dreams when nothing could be further from the truth. Big business has systematically destroyed the underlying fabric of our society and neighborhoods. Big business has made achieving the American dream little more than a pie in the sky enterprise. Big business has bought their way into the courts, the legislature and the media to the point where most folks have no clue what is going on behind the scenes and worse yet, most will defend what they are so very ignorant of. This nation is but a shell of what it used to be and while there are many that will staunchly defend the dealing of the past and present they are only doing so because they were taught or told too. I expect that someone here will soon post their "sucess" story. How they started with a couple hundred dollars and are now making a good if not excellent living. Great, good for them but in the scheme of things their sucess is little more than peanuts, the leavings left behind for the peasants to fight over. About 16 people control 99% of the wealth, power and influence in this country and some of them are not even Americans.

yes, they did and do all those things, but they did more. They werepart of what built this country back when they had some feeling for their employees and the community they were part of. Its only been in the past 30 or 40 years that they have gone over to the dark side.

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Allow me to give my two cents worth on this antiAmerican, unPatriotic thread As I see it, the problem is once again lack of foresight. Home town, privately owned stores that put back more of their income into the community were for the most part displaced by the powerful big box stores. Now a lot of the big box stores are losing market share to Internet companies that don't have the same overhead( physical building, utilities, employees, insurances, etc). I hate to demonize the word "capitalism", because by definition even the small privately owned business falls under that heading. We are seeing the end game of capitalism which at first glance benefits the consumer with lower prices but ultimately costs many times more because of lost jobs, tax revenue and a whole host of ills not seen with smaller, local, privately owned stores.
Had the jobs not been shipped off to india, mexico, communist china, etc, unemployment would not be so high, inflation would not be so out of control, there would be fewer very rich foreign investors and fewer Americans profiting from their stock investments rather than actually working for their money. The system is failed and in my opinion doomed to collapse. Too much money leaves the towns and cities, leaves the American consumers, only to profit others and never return.
I'm not against profitting from a smart, honest business plan, but if it results in sucking the life blood from our communities, it becomes more of an insult to democracy and threat to our economic stability. Frank

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I don't know where all this vitriol is coming from. I have not insulted anyone either openly or otherwise. You are reading things in that are not there. This isn't a thread about politics, it's a thread about the decay of society both financial and moral.

Aren't you guys supposed to be the party of tolerance? I thought it was the liberals that are always insulting and closed minded.

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I don't see anywhere that NHM has talked down to anyone in this post. Sure he mentioned a few of the broadcasters, but if you were open-minded, you probably could see that lop-sided shallowness that seems to constantly come from them. If you're big fans of those folks, then maybe you need to broaden you horizons. You no doubt have heard the old saying (well maybe only from the 60's): "You are what you eat"... well, you pretty much are what you listen too and if you only listen to the right or the left and you know NO difference, then you are missing out on and your opinion is somewhat narrow and your only defense against someone of opposite opinion is to argue loudly and throw labels. Labels without substance and understanding do very little to prop up any position.

I too speak negatively about this subject, or it can certainly be interpreted that way. But don't neglect to notice that I say, "Uncontrolled" capitalism. Capitalism in the terms of free-enterprise, awareness of business potential, independent entrepreneurial spirit and drive is what made this country of our what it is. BUT, we cannot forget that a sense of fair play, striving to build something that will help others, and having to charity and fairness to recognize that what you are building is enhanced by those whom you employ in your enterprise is a major part of the American spirit. It matters little and quickly leads to your demise if your quest for riches is unbridled in your quest for growing profit.

And that is where many of us in this country are at today. Statistics show that Corporate America is sitting on more cash than every before. That most of it's out-sourcing is done for short-term profit. That management in many of today's Corporations is "professional", and not represented by "coming up through the ranks" or even coming through the business at hand.... IT is just there for management of profitability in many cases. Hence the rewards are for the top, and the profits are not necessarily no enterprise, growth of market share, or even from innovation. Instead, the profits are being squeezed from the business by short-changing the pay and benefits of the company's best assets... the employee!

And that is what is wrong with America today! And this has nothing whatsoever to do with being anti-American and it is Patriotic in every sense of the word.

Patriotism isn't dying for the corporate flag and it certainly isn't for going along with a party that so totally supports and protects "BUSINESS" that it is blind to the workers of that business. Patriotism isn't the support of a lop-sided government that fights for corporate profitability over labor, or labor's conquest over a company's survival. We as American citizens cannot let ourselves be so blinded by political deceit and twists of truths, than we can let the company itself, steal from our neighbors and our own families.

And that is what has happened in the last thirty years, as CEO's decide that China and India are places to manufacture because there is no regulation, no minimum wage, no safety, and no standards or regulation that gets in the way of increasing profit margins.

AND, I totally disagree with anyone who says that it has gotten to be that way only because Americans want the cheapest things to buy! That is utterly nonsense and if that was the case, we'd only be eating at McDonald's and driving Ford's cheapest crap.

I'll be the first to admit it's a cumulative effect over a range of posts. But this isn't just about him talking down to a specific poster directly. There is another indirect way of talking down to people by blanket statements about groups of people of which they are connected, identify with, or are at least sympathetic to.

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Well until now I have not talked down to anyone but I believe I will take the opportunity to do just that now. Unless you can find somewhere in any of my posts where I insulted or talked down to you then either go away or shut up because you are rapidly becoming the poster boy for most of the nations ills. I have already given you two chances to prove your point and thus far not only you not done so, you haVe only managed to repeat the same misstatements much in the same manner that the media latches on to half truths and lies and somehow manage to think that if repeated enough they must be true. Get this through your head. This is not a political thread. I don't give a rats rear end for either corrupt party. I didn't vote for Obama and I didn't vote for Romney either. It makes no difference which idiot is in the white house. The corruption goes way way way over their numb skulls