haha i know just having some fun with oj. will be shocked if he returns to this thread...

What you say is to rile up kobe fans.

Ill make it simple..

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

And for the whole arguement on Kobe vs MJ total pts? Sure MJ didnt need the extra seasons to get the pts. But Kobe didnt play his early years enough to have a chance at scoring. Better yet, when you claim Shaq was the #1 option on the team, Kobe didnt have much of a choice being behind him while MJ was the #1 choice right from the beginning. MJ demanded the ball and was given every oppurtunity to pad that pts!!

The old argument amongst kobe haters was always... "Kobe needed Shaq to win his rings". When Kobe went and won a ring without Shaq, the haters were confused. Then for kicks, Kobe did it again. Haters went looking for another reason. Shaq himself called "kobe the man!!". But that doesnt matter because whatever Kobe accomplishes, there will be a roadblock waiting for him. This in my mind puts Kobe a mile ahead of everyone. THe mere fact that Kobe accomplished so much with every hater on his back.

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should, but they also get tired of voting for the same person over and over again.
I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise. Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you that are not one the following.
1. Too young to actual see Jordan play.
2. Not diehard Kobe and laker fans.

You hear people try to compare the two on sports show and no one says that Kobe is equal or better to Jordan. Hard to imagine they're all wrong and a couple people's opinion on blowout is correct.

It's hard for me to pick the greatest Laker ever because both Kobe and Magic are great players and each bring something different to the table. It would be hard for me to pick Kobe over Magic and Magic over Kobe. Magic won 3 Finals MVP's Kobe won 2 and could still win more. They both have 5 NBA titles on their resume. Kobe is the more dominant scorer where Magic was the dominant assist man. They are both at the top and for me it's just hard to pick who was a better Laker player.

Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

What you say is to rile up kobe fans.

Ill make it simple..

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should, but they also get tired of voting for the same person over and over again.
I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise. Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you that are not one the following.
1. Too young to actual see Jordan play.
2. Not diehard Kobe and laker fans.

You hear people try to compare the two on sports show and no one says that Kobe is equal or better to Jordan. Hard to imagine they're all wrong and a couple people's opinion on blowout is correct.

I am a Bulls fan before anything else, and I was alive and watching every one of Jordan's championships. Jordan is better than Kobe....but not by much.

It's people's attitude with Kobe that bugs me. Jordan punches a teammate in practice and "OMG he's such a competitor!" Kobe gets on teammates and "He's a horrible teammate" There's a huge double standard that exists with these guys.

Like I said, Jordan is better than Kobe, but for the most part people tend to forget about the negative things with older players because they are so far removed from that time.

Maybe in 20 years people will look back and Kobe will be widely accepted as a top 5 player, but who knows

I am a Bulls fan before anything else, and I was alive and watching every one of Jordan's championships. Jordan is better than Kobe....but not by much.

It's people's attitude with Kobe that bugs me. Jordan punches a teammate in practice and "OMG he's such a competitor!" Kobe gets on teammates and "He's a horrible teammate" There's a huge double standard that exists with these guys.

Like I said, Jordan is better than Kobe, but for the most part people tend to forget about the negative things with older players because they are so far removed from that time.

Maybe in 20 years people will look back and Kobe will be widely accepted as a top 5 player, but who knows

I am by no means calling Jordan or Kobe the best teammates ever. They both do things to push players away and not get the best out of there teammates like Magic,Robertson,Bird, or Lebron. These are players known more for passing and making others better.

We can compare Kobe and Jordan easier than other players because of the similar style.

I am not saying Kobe isn't amazing. He just shouldn't be argued as the best ever. Clearly.

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

I am a Bulls fan before anything else, and I was alive and watching every one of Jordan's championships. Jordan is better than Kobe....but not by much.

It's people's attitude with Kobe that bugs me. Jordan punches a teammate in practice and "OMG he's such a competitor!" Kobe gets on teammates and "He's a horrible teammate" There's a huge double standard that exists with these guys.

Like I said, Jordan is better than Kobe, but for the most part people tend to forget about the negative things with older players because they are so far removed from that time.

Maybe in 20 years people will look back and Kobe will be widely accepted as a top 5 player, but who knows

I think so too. I would say the decision is within 10 years. Unless we watch every single NBA played an actual game, it is just hard to give the "best title" to a player based on stat. I mean, John Stockton assist and steal numbers are #1, and yet, people would still pick Magic over Stockton on PG. 10 years later, people would think Chris paul or rondo is just as good as or better than Magic.

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should, but they also get tired of voting for the same person over and over again.
I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise. Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much.

I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who agree with you that are not one the following.
1. Too young to actual see Jordan play.
2. Not diehard Kobe and laker fans.

You hear people try to compare the two on sports show and no one says that Kobe is equal or better to Jordan. Hard to imagine they're all wrong and a couple people's opinion on blowout is correct.

Quote:

I could see your argument if you were arguing Kobe as a top 5 player. The awards are there for a reason and this journalist who vote are follow the league and do it as there job. Obviously sometimes they make mistake and often value winning a little more than they should,

So they make mistakes and you want me to trust their subjective judgement as a fact? See rings, pts and other hard stats are not voted. They are achieved. A vote is a clear distinction of "Subjective" written all over it. Basically its an opinion. Even more less credible than any stat in my books.

Quote:

I am sure they didn't rob Kobe of the MVP four times and finals MVP four times. He would that just to be equal to Jordan award wise.

Every time Jordan was favored to win the championship his team did it. The Lakers with Kobe? Not so much

This means absolutely nothing. Its just a prop for MJ fans to use as a cherry topper. Kobe lost in the playoffs. So did MJ. But MJ fans will try and curb that argument by forcing it to fit. So what do they do? They make the criteria fit the agenda. MJ never lost in the Final. Because that fact fits, it becomes the agenda. This is defined as "bottle view" in business terms. If I want to make something look good, I look for how it fits positively towards my argument by cancelling out my competitors that wouldnt fit. Its like me saying Kobe is better than MJ because Kobe put more consecutive 40+ ppgs than MJ did in the past decade. Of course that fits because MJ didnt do it, so its an automatic win for Kobe. And since I claim it to be important it now gives a check mark beside Kobes name!! Such a baseless way of debating apples to oranges.

Heres the down and dirty which keeps to rear its ugly head everytime there is talk about GOAT.

As a kobe fan, I choose to pick Kobe as the GOAT. Keeping that in mind, if you happen to be a MJ fan and claim him to be GOAT? My comment to you is, "I respect that. I dont knock it. Its your opinion and you can have it"

But as an MJ fan, if I choose Kobe as the GOAT, you dont care, you just want to knock it. It cant happen. The world comes to an end if MJ isnt #1.

Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.

Thats becasue MJ couldnt win a ring in his early years like Kobe did. Want to know why? Because he didnt have Pippen, Rodman with him. Unlike MJ who could not win without Pippen and Rodman, Kobe was able to win without Shaq. Not once, but twice!!

What Shaq was to Kobe during those championship is exactly what Wade is to Lebron during their championship. A season proven WINNER (wade) showing / leading Lebron to his first taste of a championship. I mean if Shaq did that for Kobe, Wade did it for Lebron.

All I can is, Kobe did it with Shaq. Kobe did it without Shaq. Then did it again without Shaq for good measures.

Did MJ do it without Pippen?

ill give you that wade may have helped lebron due to being a proven winner mentally, but on the physical playing basketball side, you can not say that shaq/kobe is even close to wade/lebron for this comparison. shaq was the main threat and he was getting tripled team, wade not so much. now if wade would have earned mvp and finals mvp and would have clearly lead the team, then i would say you are right, lebron was riding on wades coat tails.

So they make mistakes and you want me to trust their subjective judgement as a fact? See rings, pts and other hard stats are not voted. They are achieved. A vote is a clear distinction of "Subjective" written all over it. Basically its an opinion. Even more less credible than any stat in my books.

This means absolutely nothing. Its just a prop for MJ fans to use as a cherry topper. Kobe lost in the playoffs. So did MJ. But MJ fans will try and curb that argument by forcing it to fit. So what do they do? They make the criteria fit the agenda. MJ never lost in the Final. Because that fact fits, it becomes the agenda. This is defined as "bottle view" in business terms. If I want to make something look good, I look for how it fits positively towards my argument by cancelling out my competitors that wouldnt fit. Its like me saying Kobe is better than MJ because Kobe put more consecutive 40+ ppgs than MJ did in the past decade. Of course that fits because MJ didnt do it, so its an automatic win for Kobe. And since I claim it to be important it now gives a check mark beside Kobes name!! Such a baseless way of debating apples to oranges.

Heres the down and dirty which keeps to rear its ugly head everytime there is talk about GOAT.

As a kobe fan, I choose to pick Kobe as the GOAT. Keeping that in mind, if you happen to be a MJ fan and claim him to be GOAT? My comment to you is, "I respect that. I dont knock it. Its your opinion and you can have it"

But as an MJ fan, if I choose Kobe as the GOAT, you dont care, you just want to knock it. It cant happen. The world comes to an end if MJ isnt #1.

Thats the difference.

I am not a Jordan fan. My favorite player is Bird and he is obviously a top ten player and not the goat. I have no horse in this race and I hated when the Celtics use to get abused by Jordan.

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

I know your mind won't be changed due to being biased. That's a pity bias clouds your vision because anyone with blinders on will disagree with you.

ill give you that wade may have helped lebron due to being a proven winner mentally, but on the physical playing basketball side, you can not say that shaq/kobe is even close to wade/lebron for this comparison. shaq was the main threat and he was getting tripled team, wade not so much. now if wade would have earned mvp and finals mvp and would have clearly lead the team, then i would say you are right, lebron was riding on wades coat tails.

It does hurt Lebron that he had to leave to go to someone elses team to win though, doesn't?

Magic Johnson is/was overrated. The whole reason he had success is because he faked having HIV so players wouldn't get near him so he'd have open looks at the basket. Anyone can play good ball when defenders are scared they'll get AIDS.

It does hurt Lebron that he had to leave to go to someone elses team to win though, doesn't?

in some peoples eyes, yes, in mine, no. if cleavland could have built a championship team around lebron, we would have never had the decision. for the kobe/lebron debate concerning this. kobe has pretty much had everything on a silver plater, he was traded to the lakers (possibly the best franchise in the nba's history), a team known to have the resources to compete for a title pretty much year in and year out. kobe has had the best coaching and some of the best supporting casts a player could ask for (not to mention possibly the most dominant center the league has seen in his prime). lebron did not have those luxurys and had to jump ship for team success. pretty much everyone agrees with that, most just hate the way he did it. in a perfect world, sure it would have been incredible for lebrons legacy to be able to stay in cleavland and be a powerhouse, but he and everyone knew it was never going to happen in cleavland.

What do you mean it's impossible? I don't like or dislike either player being discussed. Just funny that he feels Kobe is the GOAT. I just choose Jordan's to state because he is widely viewed by many as the GOAT.

in some peoples eyes, yes, in mine, no. if cleavland could have built a championship team around lebron, we would have never had the decision. for the kobe/lebron debate concerning this. kobe has pretty much had everything on a silver plater, he was traded to the lakers (possibly the best franchise in the nba's history), a team known to have the resources to compete for a title pretty much year in and year out. kobe has had the best coaching and some of the best supporting casts a player could ask for (not to mention possibly the most dominant center the league has seen in his prime). lebron did not have those luxurys and had to jump ship for team success. pretty much everyone agrees with that, most just hate the way he did it. in a perfect world, sure it would have been incredible for lebrons legacy to be able to stay in cleavland and be a powerhouse, but he and everyone knew it was never going to happen in cleavland.

well....it almost happened in cleveland save for a horrible finals performance by him.

But the Kobe/Lebron argument is non-existant. Until Lebron remains a force in the league for another 6-7 years they aren't even in the same discussion

I am not a Jordan fan. My favorite player is Bird and he is obviously a top ten player and not the goat. I have no horse in this race and I hated when the Celtics use to get abused by Jordan.

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

I know your mind won't be changed due to being biased. That's a pity bias clouds your vision because anyone with blinders on will disagree with you.

Quote:

It's obvious you're biased. Please tell me a year when Jordan robbed someone of an MVP? Please enlighten me.
So what if Kobe had more 40 point games? The point is?

Very typical. As much as you say "So what if Kobe had more 40 pt games, The point is?" I say the same thing everytime you bring dummy facts like "MJ never lost in the finals" or "MJ has more MVPS voted by a bunch of armchair QBs that never played the game" Circle jerk argument. Again "Bottle view". You only see it so as long as it fits your agenda. I cant argue that. Infact I wont argue that.

What do you mean it's impossible? I don't like or dislike either player being discussed. Just funny that he feels Kobe is the GOAT. I just choose Jordan's to state because he is widely viewed by many as the GOAT.

I mean that weather you realize it or not you are influenced by certain things. In matters that are non-fact, and opinions, whether we realize it or not there are certain biases at play