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MOTUC canon, what`s your take?

I was thinking earlier about how the bio`s on the back of the package are all a collection of things from different cannons and for the first time they are all bieng put together to create the ultimate He Man universe, but one thing that`s been bugging me is how is all this going to fit together to make a legend that`s not too far out there. I have a few ideas but wanted to see what everyone else thinks. Remeber we now have King Grayskull, 2 different origins for He Man on the same bio, and the fact that Faker was now created by Man at Arms. Lets hear your take on what you think about this and how it all fits together.

I have to agree that I don't like the use of "MOTU" as a name for the heroes. As Val said, it sounds very egotistical. In the MYP series, when He-Man says "You are brave warriors, Masters of the Universe all" I was scratching my head. It sounded a bit pompous. Especially because everything in the MYP series completely left out the "universe" aspect of the property. Everything was stuck on Eternia! There was no outer space conflicts or anything. How would the good guys know they are the MOTU if they never interact with anything beyond their own planet?

Personally, I love the way "MOTU" was used in the opening narration of the 87 movie:
"At the center of the universe, at the border between the light and the dark stands Castle Grayskull. For countless ages the Sorceress of Grayskull has kept this universe in harmony. But the armies of darkness do not rest, and the capture of Grayskull is ever-most in their minds. For to those that control Grayskull will come the Power. The power to be supreme, the power to be almighty, the power to be Masters of the Universe!"

I think that opening narration will always be my favorite "canon" so to speak.
It sums up the struggle perfectly and puts the control of Grayskull on a universal scale. No one person or group are the MOTU yet, but they could be.

I agree for me the heroes fighting with He-Man on Eternia will always be known as the Heroic Warriors. I love the opening of the live action motion picture. For me whoever, the Masters of the Universe will be is far from a done deal. It will be whoever, takes control of Castle Grayskull it may just as easily be the Evil Warriors, The Evil Horde, The Snake Men or an independent Villain/ villainess or the Heroic Warriors may succeed, but really the war could go anyway. As a child some of the most exciting things about "MotU" was the unknown, i.e. just what would unlocking the powers of the universe look like. I really like the themes that characters like Skeletor are influenced by the ultimate forms of individualism and greed, that he wants the power of the entire Universe. I also thought as a kid that perhaps The Evil Horde ruling Etheria was an example of what would happen to the entire Universe if The Evil Warriors, The Evil Horde or Snake Men, one of these sides or a coalition took control of Grayskull.

Take Care,
Darren

Mattel please, buy the He-Man and She-Ra cartoons from Entertainment Rights. If you owned Both Filmation related "MotU" cartoons, plus "NA" and "MYP" cartoons, you would be able to distribute any or all 4 cartoons to Television in the lead up to another relaunch or a live action movie. Plus, you could include Filmation and "NA" animated characters in "MotU:C"!

...and the fact that Faker was now created by Man at Arms. Lets hear your take on what you think about this and how it all fits together.

In my interpretation of the bio, I read it as Man-At-Arms didn't create the evil "Faker", he created a heroic robot that was used to fake Skeletor into thinking it was He-Man. It was destroyed in battle and it's remains left on the battlefield, therefore it "was scrapped to the royal junkyard"; which could also just mean it was left on the battlefield couldn't it?

Skeletor took that destroyed/damaged robot soldier and created the evil Faker out of it with magic and technology. Who knows, possibly Skeletor infused it with an evil power from another dimension.

Wow, I really must be in the minority that the bios really don't irk me all that much.
Don't mind Beastman's real name.
Don't mind He-Man's power vest.
Don't mind that Faker was originally a creation of Man-At-Arm's.

The "Masters" title, while I agree with most that it should apply to all, or not even be mentioned amongst the characters. (Like Star Wars)
It didn't bother me too greatly back in 2002 when we first heard it, and it doesn't bother me any more here and now.

Besides, if folks are fans of the 1987 Movie opening... Wouldn't that indicate that the Sorceress and the good guys ARE Masters then? Seeing as she and He-Man and the good guys are all keepers of Grayskull right?

Val said it best, when he said they can really only go with what story was established in the early minicomics, along with mixing it into the MYP/200X mythos because that's what Mattel has to work with. They don't have rights to the Filmation stuff. Apparently that stands with story lines as well as unique to Filmation characters?

Me personally, my preferred MotU mythos are found in 200X and the pre-filmation mini-comics, so as you would accurately guess, I'm really just fine and happy even with the new bios.

Wow, I really must be in the minority that the bios really don't irk me all that much.
Don't mind Beastman's real name.
Don't mind He-Man's power vest.
Don't mind that Faker was originally a creation of Man-At-Arm's.

The "Masters" title, while I agree with most that it should apply to all, or not even be mentioned amongst the characters. (Like Star Wars)
It didn't bother me too greatly back in 2002 when we first heard it, and it doesn't bother me any more here and now.

Val said it best, when he said they can really only go with what story was established in the early minicomics, along with mixing it into the MYP/200X mythos because that's what Mattel has to work with. They don't have rights to the Filmation stuff. Apparently that stands with story lines as well as unique to Filmation characters?

Me personally, my preferred MotU mythos are found in 200X and the pre-filmation mini-comics, so as you would accurately guess, I'm really just fine and happy even with the new bios.

You aren't alone. The only thing that really bothers me is Tri-Klops being a inventor again. I liked his hunter aspect much better. He seemed pretty competant in his mini-comic, and not like Beastman who gets his ass handed to him in every encounter with He-Man. Trike lost too, but he beat everyone up until he got to He-Man.

You aren't alone. The only thing that really bothers me is Tri-Klops being a inventor again. I liked his hunter aspect much better. He seemed pretty competant in his mini-comic, and not like Beastman who gets his ass handed to him in every encounter with He-Man. Trike lost too, but he beat everyone up until he got to He-Man.

I prefer Trap Jaw being the inventor, and have Tri-Klops as the spy/warrior. I hope Mattel doesn't go the MYP route with those two on their bios.

Wow, I really must be in the minority that the bios really don't irk me all that much.
Don't mind Beastman's real name.
Don't mind He-Man's power vest.
Don't mind that Faker was originally a creation of Man-At-Arm's.

The "Masters" title, while I agree with most that it should apply to all, or not even be mentioned amongst the characters. (Like Star Wars)
It didn't bother me too greatly back in 2002 when we first heard it, and it doesn't bother me any more here and now.

Val said it best, when he said they can really only go with what story was established in the early minicomics, along with mixing it into the MYP/200X mythos because that's what Mattel has to work with. They don't have rights to the Filmation stuff. Apparently that stands with story lines as well as unique to Filmation characters?

Me personally, my preferred MotU mythos are found in 200X and the pre-filmation mini-comics, so as you would accurately guess, I'm really just fine and happy even with the new bios.

I agree with you and feel very much the same - I have no problem as of yet with the bios. In fact I like them very much

Here is my joining of the 200X and mini comics cannon! I got it set something like this, remember this is the marriage of cannons Most of us the know the and can mentally fill in the rest. So I think it goes like this,
1.King Grayskull dies and his POWER is put in the sword not his spirit, he becomes the spirit of Grayskull and the sword is split and hidden.
2.The spirit watches over the castle until the 2 swords are put together by the hero that is to protect eternia in the legend, That`s why nothing happened when Skeletor put the halves together.
3.He man leaves his tribe to fight evil and the Goddess gives him his techno vest and weapons.
4.Once the swords are eventually joined together by He Man the power is so strong he becomes the power (The power of Good is now joined with the power of Grayskull)!!! and He Man is now a spiritual entity combined with the power of grayskull who is channeled through the power sword, so who better to carry on this But Prince Adam (since he man no longer has a human body), using He Man when he`s needed most. The spirit leaves the castle because his job is done, the Goddess evolves into a birdlike sorceress and Teela is left with the looks she formerly shared with the now evolved goddess since teela was created as a clone of the Goddess.
5.The spirit is gone from Grayskull and as the new guardian, the sorceress can never leave Grayskull again in human form and Adam is not actually He Man at all but more like host for He Man`s spirit to channel to to fight evil. Adam does retain his concience and is quite aware of what goes on when he is filled with the power. and the rest is history
This is my take and the only way I could come up with a way to sensically combine the cannons to make some sense. See now I have cemented it in a way that the only loose ends now are Filmations. I think it`s a cool concept, but may not be liked by everyone. Let me know what ya think!!

I mean, I like the character (his design, etc) but the more you think about it, the more holes there are IMO and the more it feels he was shoehorned in without considering all of the repercussions.

I don`t think it`s all that hard to make him fit seeing as his story took place way before what we consider to be modern day Eternia. He just needs to be added to the beginning of the story for it to make sense and nothing has to changed but his attire from 200X to MOTUC. Other than that I think he was a great addition to MOTUC, and something new to expand on in the old universe that we all thought we knew. Hopefully we can make the entire story whole if we join all the pieces together and not have to go on with 3 different mythos for MOTU! That`s my dream, to not have to guess anymore!!!

I think if they had just mentioned that the He-man robot was damaged in battle at Snake Mountain, and MAA was not able to recover it (the basic story of The Coursge of Adam) then that bio would have worked better, but to just throw a robot away?

I think if they had just mentioned that the He-man robot was damaged in battle at Snake Mountain, and MAA was not able to recover it (the basic story of The Coursge of Adam) then that bio would have worked better, but to just throw a robot away?

That's actually a great idea, but they'd need a good explanation as to why the He-Man robot was taken to Snake Mountain to begin with.

You just gave me an idea, though. What if the robot needs to be transported somehow? Maybe MAA doesn't have all the parts he needs in his workshop, so he outsources some of the work, and now an armed Heroic Warriors escort is bringing the robot to MAA.

Along the way, they're attacked by the Evil Warriors, who are pleasantly surprised when their overpowering attack and the subsequent retreat of the Heroes reveals a high-tech robot bearing He-Man's likeness who has yet to be programmed. Still begs the question of color scheme, but it's more sensible than the "trash heap" plot point.

Originally Posted by adam03

Hopefully we can make the entire story whole if we join all the pieces together and not have to go on with 3 different mythos for MOTU! That`s my dream, to not have to guess anymore!!!

That would definitely be cool. One problem with Grayskull is that he's admittedly an afterthought. The MYP staff liked the 4H's original design of He-Man and were trying to figure out a way to incorporate him into the show.

But why is his name Grayskull? Why is his palace a white castle?
Isn't Castle Grayskull is named "Grayskull" for the, umm, giant gray skull in the middle?

And admittedly you can't show it all in a 20-minute episode, but I didn't totally buy the "trials" that KG went on to prove his worth. And how is he the only person who has a good enough "soul" or whatever to have this enormous power he was suddenly capable of stick around for centuries like that?

More questions: How is he Prince Adam's ancestor? Did King Grayskull have kids? Is it a direct line of descendants to King Randor? And is Veena related to the Sorceress? By blood? So is Teela related to Adam and Randor as well? See how this all gets a little confusing?

IMO, King Grayskull sums up almost perfectly the MYP approach to MotU.
I think it's awesome that they tried to take things more seriously, and tried to make a solid canon that made sense and retained a unique, MotU feel to it.

But whether they were pressured for time, or Mattel notes, or whatever, a lot of their ideas seem rushed through without the needed troubleshooting to make sure the pieces can fit, or should fit, I guess.

I think if they had just mentioned that the He-man robot was damaged in battle at Snake Mountain, and MAA was not able to recover it (the basic story of The Coursge of Adam) then that bio would have worked better, but to just throw a robot away?

I agree with Lay Ze-Man; this is a great idea. It's more believable, and it's more interesting, too.

Maybe the robot was nearly totaled, or the Heroic Warriors thought it was totaled or gone (knocked down into a chasm or something). The Evil Warriors recover it, Tri-Klops (Trapjaw if we're talking old school) does some repairs, and Skeletor uses his magic to "program" it. And then no mention of the royal junkyard.

That would definitely be cool. One problem with Grayskull is that he's admittedly an afterthought. The MYP staff liked the 4H's original design of He-Man and were trying to figure out a way to incorporate him into the show.

An afterthought? Don't know, wasn't in the meeting. You weren't either I'm guessing.
Do they make him sound like an after thought when they talk about him on the DVDs? Yeah, I'll give ya that, but for him to be the big start to this line hardly makes him an after thought.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

But why is his name Grayskull? Why is his palace a white castle?
Isn't Castle Grayskull is named "Grayskull" for the, umm, giant gray skull in the middle?

That's a literal approach to it, sure.
The skull has been three colors now in the various depictions, Green at first, then a gray, then white in the flashback.
I wouldn't take it too literally. Grayskull could be a name as much as it could be a reason.
And we don't know what came first... The castle? Or the King? There's speculation, but nobody knows.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

And admittedly you can't show it all in a 20-minute episode, but I didn't totally buy the "trials" that KG went on to prove his worth. And how is he the only person who has a good enough "soul" or whatever to have this enormous power he was suddenly capable of stick around for centuries like that?

Do they have to spell everything out? Like you said, it was one abbreviated telling of his story, certainly not his whole story. Let's leave some things to the imagination eh? Better yet, future adventures on your own! Or possible fun stories to discover in the future!

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

More questions: How is he Prince Adam's ancestor? Did King Grayskull have kids? Is it a direct line of descendants to King Randor? And is Veena related to the Sorceress? By blood? So is Teela related to Adam and Randor as well? See how this all gets a little confusing?

It's been written and clear that Adam is a direct decendant of King Grayskull.
Obviously KG and Veena either had kids already, or Veena was prego at the death of KG. Whether or not the bloodline goes through Marlena to Adam or Randor to Adam... I don't think it's been confirmed, but we do know for certain Adam is a decendant of Grayskull.

As to Veena and the Sorceress? Not related IMO. Again, not confirmed, but just because Sorceress and Teela are related, doesn't mean all of the Sorceresses that guarded Grayskull and the Sword have been related.
Veena simply said that she would "find another" to take her place when she was no longer able. This is one area where the MYP story and the Filmation story can co-exist nicely. As we know that in Filmation, Kodak-Ungle or whatever her name was, picked Teela-Na as the next Sorceress. I don't think they were related at all.
There are more ideas that lead me to believe that Veena is NOT related to Teela or the current Sorceress, Teela-Na. So, if Adam and Teela do hook up in the future and rule from Castle Grayskull? It's a perfect mirroring of KG and Veena, in the modern Eternian era of King Adam and Queen/Sorceress Teela.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

IMO, King Grayskull sums up almost perfectly the MYP approach to MotU.
I think it's awesome that they tried to take things more seriously, and tried to make a solid canon that made sense and retained a unique, MotU feel to it.

Couldn't agree with you more friend!

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

But whether they were pressured for time, or Mattel notes, or whatever, a lot of their ideas seem rushed through without the needed troubleshooting to make sure the pieces can fit, or should fit, I guess.

And see, I think things actually can and do fit pretty well with some minor tweaking.
They've covered their bases fairly well, and I don't think any of the storyline for MotUC has been rushed. They've had time to think some of this stuff through. Whether or not you agree with it all or see it as they do is simply personal preference, which will always be prevalent in MotU seeing as it's got it's own funky, unique and in many ways, very individual takes on the overall Mythos.

Besides, if folks are fans of the 1987 Movie opening... Wouldn't that indicate that the Sorceress and the good guys ARE Masters then? Seeing as she and He-Man and the good guys are all keepers of Grayskull right?

Or, it could indicate that Sorceress as well as He-man are both ultimately neutral in this battle. The heroic warriors can have an alliance He-man and Sorceress, because they have mutual goals, but if anyone of them (them=heroic warriors) ever decided to go for the powers of Grayskull, both He-man and Sorceress would defend the castle.

That would be an interesting storyline to see, though. For instance, to see King Randor deciding to acquire the powers of Grayskull to defeat evil once and for all. WWHD (what would He-man do?)

heidi

"The most difficult thing is trying not to forget who you really want to be." - Nong Toom

Or, it could indicate that Sorceress as well as He-man are both ultimately neutral in this battle. The heroic warriors can have an alliance He-man and Sorceress, because they have mutual goals, but if anyone of them (them=heroic warriors) ever decided to go for the powers of Grayskull, both He-man and Sorceress would defend the castle.

They don't even have to be neutral, is the thing. Because "I defend this" and "I own this" are not the same thing. Bob the security guard will not instantly become the owner of your local bank and all the cash in the vault when he starts work there on Monday, just as the heroic warriors don't by default acquire the powers and assets of Grayskull just because they defend it.

Still remembers we paid excessive shipping on Battleground Teela. Is confident Matty will resolve the issue and make it right for us.

Or, it could indicate that Sorceress as well as He-man are both ultimately neutral in this battle. The heroic warriors can have an alliance He-man and Sorceress, because they have mutual goals, but if anyone of them (them=heroic warriors) ever decided to go for the powers of Grayskull, both He-man and Sorceress would defend the castle.

That would be an interesting storyline to see, though. For instance, to see King Randor deciding to acquire the powers of Grayskull to defeat evil once and for all. WWHD (what would He-man do?)

heidi

He-man would have to defend Castle Grayskull from everyone even those who want to use the power for good. So if Randor would go after the power of Grayskull he would be stopped by He-man.

They don't even have to be neutral, is the thing. Because "I defend this" and "I own this" are not the same thing. Bob the security guard will not instantly become the owner of your local bank and all the cash in the vault when he starts work there on Monday, just as the heroic warriors don't by default acquire the powers and assets of Grayskull just because they defend it.

Yes, I think we are talking about the same thing here. I did not mean that He-man and Sorceress should be neutral as persons, but as related to guarding the Castle Greyskull. Neither one of them owns the power of Greyskull, but they defend it from anyone. From the Heroic Warriors too, if necessary.

heidi

"The most difficult thing is trying not to forget who you really want to be." - Nong Toom

An afterthought? Don't know, wasn't in the meeting. You weren't either I'm guessing.
Do they make him sound like an after thought when they talk about him on the DVDs? Yeah, I'll give ya that, but for him to be the big start to this line hardly makes him an after thought.

He's a total afterthought, hence his creation and first mention 20 years after He-Man first came out.

Each new thing that a writer adds that wasn't intended from the getgo muddies things a bit and makes everything harder to explain IMO.

That's what happened when Prince Adam was thrown into the mix, and IMO it's the same again with King Grayskull.
When you're just making stuff up as you go along, unless you happen to be an excellent writer, there's gonna be hit-or-miss for sure.

That's a literal approach to it, sure.
The skull has been three colors now in the various depictions, Green at first, then a gray, then white in the flashback.
I wouldn't take it too literally. Grayskull could be a name as much as it could be a reason.
And we don't know what came first... The castle? Or the King? There's speculation, but nobody knows.

Of course we know what came first: it was a gray castle with a skull on it sculpted by Mark Taylor.
Everything else is someone else's interpretation superimposed on that.

Do they have to spell everything out? Like you said, it was one abbreviated telling of his story, certainly not his whole story. Let's leave some things to the imagination eh? Better yet, future adventures on your own! Or possible fun stories to discover in the future!

They don't "have to" spell everything out, but when they don't even come close, it shows me that they didn't really think it through that well. I lean less towards "They didn't want to spoil all the surprises" and more towards "That's all they came up with, why would they need anything more complex and layered than that? It's just a toon for a toyline, after all."

It's been written and clear that Adam is a direct decendant of King Grayskull.
Obviously KG and Veena either had kids already, or Veena was prego at the death of KG.

Obviously? No, not obviously. If she were shown to be pregnant, or there were kids running around then yes, but otherwise it's an unanswered question that they forgot to cover their bases on.

Whether or not the bloodline goes through Marlena to Adam or Randor to Adam... I don't think it's been confirmed, but we do know for certain Adam is a decendant of Grayskull.

How could KG be related to Adam without being related to Randor or Marlena? And that should be explained IMO.
It just seems like they want to leave things up in the air for future retconning, changing stuff up again whenever they want. Marlena can't be from Earth, for example, if she is also related to King Grayskull.

There are more ideas that lead me to believe that Veena is NOT related to Teela or the current Sorceress, Teela-Na. So, if Adam and Teela do hook up in the future and rule from Castle Grayskull? It's a perfect mirroring of KG and Veena, in the modern Eternian era of King Adam and Queen/Sorceress Teela.

I'll give you that one, that Veena does not necessarily need to be related to the Sorceress.
But I don't care whatsoever if Adam and Teela ever hook up, so that part is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

And see, I think things actually can and do fit pretty well with some minor tweaking.
They've covered their bases fairly well, and I don't think any of the storyline for MotUC has been rushed.

It's possible, but with such limited space (and vague wording) on the cardbacks, it's very unclear at this point.

How could KG be related to Adam without being related to Randor or Marlena? And that should be explained IMO.

Nate was actually trying to say that the bloodline from KG to Adam could go from Marlena's side, or from Randor.

Though for some reason I've always gotten the impression that it was Adam - Randor - Miro - ? generations ? - KG.

Because the big point about being that Miro is father to Randor and Keldor. With them having different mothers. And if memory doesn't fail me completely, there was some talk about Keldor having a chance at the powers of grayskull. I think it was the creators on one of the dvd-commentaries....

Each new thing that a writer adds that wasn't intended from the getgo muddies things a bit and makes everything harder to explain IMO.

That's what happened when Prince Adam was thrown into the mix, and IMO it's the same again with King Grayskull.
When you're just making stuff up as you go along, unless you happen to be an excellent writer, there's gonna be hit-or-miss for sure.

That's just gonna happen though if we want MotU to continue through the ages.
You can't just sit on one story, get's old quick.
You have to add things in or evolve things to keep it fresh and interesting.

Adam did it back in the day, KG does it today.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

Of course we know what came first: it was a gray castle with a skull on it sculpted by Mark Taylor.
Everything else is someone else's interpretation superimposed on that.

Meh, poor photography, it could've been a blue/green/gray, I've seen the pics too. But I like your take there man!
All hail the superior Grayskull found in Mark Taylor's first sculpt!

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

They don't "have to" spell everything out, but when they don't even come close, it shows me that they didn't really think it through that well. I lean less towards "They didn't want to spoil all the surprises" and more towards "That's all they came up with, why would they need anything more complex and layered than that? It's just a toon for a toyline, after all."

I personally think they provided plenty. Not "too little". Because KG has quite the fan following, granted it's pretty split evenly on these boards as to their preferences, but still, lots of fan-fic involving the KG storyline now. He's the first figure for this line, KG's gettin' lots of lovin' these days.
I wouldn't say it's that shallow. But I know plenty like yourself who does, so now it's again down to the my preference over yours. An old horse to kick.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

Obviously? No, not obviously. If she were shown to be pregnant, or there were kids running around then yes, but otherwise it's an unanswered question that they forgot to cover their bases on.

No, it is obvious dude! Adam is related to King Grayskull. So they HAD to have had kids or Veena was pregnant. You know a fit, thin woman can go three months without showing a bump right? Can go even further with creative clothing. Sure Veena sported the belly in her outfit... Maybe that was on purpose? Or perhaps she literally was just weeks along.
Either way, it is OBVIOUS because Adam has been told, we've all been told officially that Adam is a descendant of Grayskull.
Just because we didn't see the kids or a bump in her belly in the 20 min. episode, doesn't mean that changes the story they've told us.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

How could KG be related to Adam without being related to Randor or Marlena? And that should be explained IMO.
It just seems like they want to leave things up in the air for future retconning, changing stuff up again whenever they want. Marlena can't be from Earth, for example, if she is also related to King Grayskull.

You want a family tree? I think you must've misunderstood me there as Jukka pointed out.

Adam is either related to KG through Randor or through Marlena. And I believe Jukka is right that it's was revealed that his blood relation is through Randor. I just wasn't sure if it was from the Ian Richter interview here, or through the DVD documentaries.

Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man

I'll give you that one, that Veena does not necessarily need to be related to the Sorceress.
But I don't care whatsoever if Adam and Teela ever hook up, so that part is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

You may not care and that's cool.
But it was also confirmed that Teela was to take over as the new Sorceress.
Thus it would set up a mirroring of KG and Veena with Adam and Teela.

Besides, we've talked this out in the past on the forums that Teela is most likely NOT related to Adam. And that even if she were, Through Veena, through the Sorceress. That so many generations had passed it really would be mute to worry about at this point. Meaning it wouldn't be "weird".

Look, you may not like KG's story or what he brings to the Mythos, that's cool. Not saying you have to like it. But I stand by my points I've made as hopefully they're based on official information that we have received. I very well could be "off" on some of the info. But by in large your comments came off as really un-informed on how the Grayskull family tree looks.