What's the criteria for being a great leader? Is it like HHOF where you have to be among the best of your era AND have a great career? When a player loses his abilities towards the end of his career people chalk it up to age and remember the player he was. But do we really want to do the same for a fallen leader?

Being a Canucks fan, I've always had trouble calling Messier a great leader because he simply wasn't much of a leader in his days as a Canuck and his last days as a Ranger. He leaned towards being a divisive force than a captain who brought his players together. Now I understand that Messier couldn't lead the same way he did when he was young, but a great leader should recognize that he wasn't doing a very good job and step down.

What about guys like Iginla and Richards? Leaders for sure, and at one time considered great despite not having captained their team to the Cup, but their leadership has come into question in recent years.

What about Henrik vs Linden? Linden is probably the most popular Canucks captain ever, but can we say that Henrik's resume as captain of the Vancouver Canucks looks better? How would another quick first-round exit tarnish Henrik's reputation? Obviously, a lot of things are subjective, but there has to be some objective criteria. How is Steve Yzerman a greater leader than Mario Lemieux? Because Yzerman "helped" his team win the Cup on one knee?

The fact Messier is on the list at all is pathetic. His "leadership" here in Vancouver sunk the franchise for a few years and ripped apart the dressing room. In a round about way his chaos style of leadership helped the Canucks out though as we got Big Bert back in the Linden trade after TL was forced out of the city by Messier/Keenan, but still he did jack shit in a Canuck uniform other than collecting a whack of cash.

Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman are the consummate leaders. Lead by example, plain and simple.

Tanti09 wrote:The fact Messier is on the list at all is pathetic. His "leadership" here in Vancouver sunk the franchise for a few years and ripped apart the dressing room. In a round about way his chaos style of leadership helped the Canucks out though as we got Big Bert back in the Linden trade after TL was forced out of the city by Messier/Keenan, but still he did jack shit in a Canuck uniform other than collecting a whack of cash.

Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman are the consummate leaders. Lead by example, plain and simple.

lets not be too bitter about him doing squanto in Vancouver, check it out: "He spent a quarter of a century in the NHL (1979–2004) with the Edmonton Oilers, New York Rangers, and Vancouver Canucks. He also played professionally with the World Hockey Association (WHA)'s Indianapolis Racers and Cincinnati Stingers.[1] He was the last former WHA player to be active in professional hockey, and the last active player who had played in the NHL in the 1970s.Messier is considered one of the greatest NHL players of all time.[2] He is second on the all-time career lists for regular season points (1887), playoff points (295) and regular season games played (1756). He won six Stanley Cups, five with the Oilers and one with the Rangers, and is the only player to captain two different professional teams to championships.[3] His playoff leadership while in New York, which ended a 54-year Stanley Cup drought in 1994, earned him the nickname "The Messiah"."

Tanti09 wrote:The fact Messier is on the list at all is pathetic. His "leadership" here in Vancouver sunk the franchise for a few years and ripped apart the dressing room. In a round about way his chaos style of leadership helped the Canucks out though as we got Big Bert back in the Linden trade after TL was forced out of the city by Messier/Keenan, but still he did jack shit in a Canuck uniform other than collecting a whack of cash.

Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman are the consummate leaders. Lead by example, plain and simple.

lets not be too bitter about him doing squanto in Vancouver, check it out: "He spent a quarter of a century in the NHL (1979–2004) with the Edmonton Oilers, New York Rangers, and Vancouver Canucks. He also played professionally with the World Hockey Association (WHA)'s Indianapolis Racers and Cincinnati Stingers.[1] He was the last former WHA player to be active in professional hockey, and the last active player who had played in the NHL in the 1970s.Messier is considered one of the greatest NHL players of all time.[2] He is second on the all-time career lists for regular season points (1887), playoff points (295) and regular season games played (1756). He won six Stanley Cups, five with the Oilers and one with the Rangers, and is the only player to captain two different professional teams to championships.[3] His playoff leadership while in New York, which ended a 54-year Stanley Cup drought in 1994, earned him the nickname "The Messiah"."

Kinda tough to argue

Don't disagree that you have a strong argument there, it's just that my distaste for the man overrides all his "accomplishments". He definitely has an arrogance about him that makes my skin crawl and he really did jack shit for the Canuck organization. Would the "Messiah" have been held in such high esteem if he had pulled his bullshit in Montreal or Toronto to end his career? Like I said, he may have done some great things in other cities (with HUGE supporting casts I may add), but his stink act in Vancouver is a big black eye.

Tanti09 wrote:The fact Messier is on the list at all is pathetic. His "leadership" here in Vancouver sunk the franchise for a few years and ripped apart the dressing room. In a round about way his chaos style of leadership helped the Canucks out though as we got Big Bert back in the Linden trade after TL was forced out of the city by Messier/Keenan, but still he did jack shit in a Canuck uniform other than collecting a whack of cash.

Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman are the consummate leaders. Lead by example, plain and simple.

lets not be too bitter about him doing squanto in Vancouver, check it out: "He spent a quarter of a century in the NHL (1979–2004) with the Edmonton Oilers, New York Rangers, and Vancouver Canucks. He also played professionally with the World Hockey Association (WHA)'s Indianapolis Racers and Cincinnati Stingers.[1] He was the last former WHA player to be active in professional hockey, and the last active player who had played in the NHL in the 1970s.Messier is considered one of the greatest NHL players of all time.[2] He is second on the all-time career lists for regular season points (1887), playoff points (295) and regular season games played (1756). He won six Stanley Cups, five with the Oilers and one with the Rangers, and is the only player to captain two different professional teams to championships.[3] His playoff leadership while in New York, which ended a 54-year Stanley Cup drought in 1994, earned him the nickname "The Messiah"."

Kinda tough to argue

Don't disagree that you have a strong argument there, it's just that my distaste for the man overrides all his "accomplishments". He definitely has an arrogance about him that makes my skin crawl and he really did jack shit for the Canuck organization. Would the "Messiah" have been held in such high esteem if he had pulled his bullshit in Montreal or Toronto to end his career? Like I said, he may have done some great things in other cities (with HUGE supporting casts I may add), but his stink act in Vancouver is a big black eye.

I was pretty disappointed with his time here too, but with some of things that i have read on the corner over the last couple of years about how Bure got screwed here...I am beginning to wonder what the impact Messier would have had if management and coaches were not who they were at the time...?

ukcanuck wrote:is the only player to captain two different professional teams to championships.[3] His playoff leadership while in New York, which ended a 54-year Stanley Cup drought in 1994, earned him the nickname "The Messiah"."

Ya. Stars shine brighter in New York. All the wiki stats you posted speaks to Messier's longevity. Yes he had a great career. 2nd All time in points but no scoring titles and only one runner up.