...the entire idea of "origin", in the most primal, rudimentary sense of the term, ends in paradox, a gordian knot of sorts, at least from the standpoint of our minds, our thought, our reason, our perception in this way. Take the idea of the "origin" of this particular universe of ours. What originated? Well, simply put, everything that this universe is presently comprised of, has been comprised of, and will be comprised of.

But let's break down this mind-boggling diversity of our universe's power of creative expression to something resembling its fundamental parts, its primal integrants. As far as I can discern from all that I've read, from all that my pea-brain is able to comprehend, I see four fundamental parts to it, four primal integrants:

1) Time2) Space3) Energy 4) Force

All four of these primal ingredients, in and of themselves, are complete mysteries in and of themselves. What is time? What is space? What is energy? What is force? Nobody knows. They just are. We only know of them in how they express themselves to our minds and our senses. Time expresses itself as duration. Space expresses itself as place. Energy expresses itself as matter. Force expresses itself as occurrence. What's more is that each of these primal ingredients can only express themselves in relation to each other. For example, energy can't express itself as matter without duration, without place, or without occurrence. And vice-versa with each in their turn. They are totally interdependent upon each other in this way.

But let's take it even one step further. If each of these primal ingredients can only express themselves in relation to the others, do they in fact exist independently of each other? Might not each of these primal ingredients be further reduced to a single primal ingredient? And what might that possibly be? And if each of these primal ingredients are already complete mysteries in and of themselves, beyond our mind's comprehension in this way, it only stands to reason that such a single primal ingredient would also be a complete mystery in and of itself, would be at least as incomprehensible to our minds as any of the four primal ingredients already are in this way. Just as the four primal ingredients simply are, so such a single primal ingredient simply is.

Now we arrive at that gordian knot again, that paradox when it comes to the idea of "origin", at least as concerns this particular universe, this particular existence we inhabit. If we posit that everything of this universe, past, present, and future, is comprised of this single ingredient, this single ingredient that is completely mysterious, thoroughly incomprehensible in and of itself, what is our reason, our science, our scientific method to make of such a thing? What use is such a knowledge to us in this way?

Scientifically speaking, the simple fact of the matter is that we only know of it in how it expresses itself to our minds and our senses. Beyond that, all we can scientifically say about it, with any degree of truth or conviction, is that it simply is, in all the manifestations of its complexity and diversity, including us. The exclusive, proper domain of science is the exploration of its manifestations and the better understanding of its processes. That's it. And that's a LOT! Anything that gets in the way of this, that seeks to unnecessarily confuse and contaminate our scientific process, one of the most profound developments in the history of our species, is not only counterproductive, but downright injurious to our collective culture, our collective future, to our minds.

There are different domains of exploration and understanding for our species; they serve different purposes, have different methodologies. At best, these different domains of exploration and understanding can serve to inform, challenge and inspire new ways of thinking, new developments in each, and make us all the better for it. It doesn't help us in the least, however, when we confuse the purposes and methodologies of one domain with the next, allow one domain to exceed its rightful place of vitality and jurisdiction and unduly impose its misguided will upon the other. In the case of such things like Intelligent Design, that is exactly what is taking place.

(08-06-2015, 03:06 PM)NobodyNothing Wrote: [ -> ]...the entire idea of "origin", in the most primal, rudimentary sense of the term, ends in paradox, a gordian knot of sorts, at least from the standpoint of our minds, our thought, our reason, our perception in this way. Take the idea of the "origin" of this particular universe of ours. What originated? Well, simply put, everything that this universe is presently comprised of, has been comprised of, and will be comprised of.

But let's break down this mind-boggling diversity of our universe's power of creative expression to something resembling its fundamental parts, its primal integrants. As far as I can discern from all that I've read, from all that my pea-brain is able to comprehend, I see four fundamental parts to it, four primal integrants:

1) Time2) Space3) Energy 4) Force

All four of these primal ingredients, in and of themselves, are complete mysteries in and of themselves. What is time? What is space? What is energy? What is force? Nobody knows. They just are. We only know of them in how they express themselves to our minds and our senses. Time expresses itself as duration. Space expresses itself as place. Energy expresses itself as matter. Force expresses itself as occurrence. What's more is that each of these primal ingredients can only express themselves in relation to each other. For example, energy can't express itself as matter without duration, without place, or without occurrence. And vice-versa with each in their turn. They are totally interdependent upon each other in this way.

But let's take it even one step further. If each of these primal ingredients can only express themselves in relation to the others, do they in fact exist independently of each other? Might not each of these primal ingredients be further reduced to a single primal ingredient? And what might that possibly be? And if each of these primal ingredients are already complete mysteries in and of themselves, beyond our mind's comprehension in this way, it only stands to reason that such a single primal ingredient would also be a complete mystery in and of itself, would be at least as incomprehensible to our minds as any of the four primal ingredients already are in this way. Just as the four primal ingredients simply are, so such a single primal ingredient simply is.

Now we arrive at that gordian knot again, that paradox when it comes to the idea of "origin", at least as concerns this particular universe, this particular existence we inhabit. If we posit that everything of this universe, past, present, and future, is comprised of this single ingredient, this single ingredient that is completely mysterious, thoroughly incomprehensible in and of itself, what is our reason, our science, our scientific method to make of such a thing? What use is such a knowledge to us in this way?

Scientifically speaking, the simple fact of the matter is that we only know of it in how it expresses itself to our minds and our senses. Beyond that, all we can scientifically say about it, with any degree of truth or conviction, is that it simply is, in all the manifestations of its complexity and diversity, including us. The exclusive, proper domain of science is the exploration of its manifestations and the better understanding of its processes. That's it. And that's a LOT! Anything that gets in the way of this, that seeks to unnecessarily confuse and contaminate our scientific process, one of the most profound developments in the history of our species, is not only counterproductive, but downright injurious to our collective culture, our collective future, to our minds.

There are different domains of exploration and understanding for our species; they serve different purposes, have different methodologies. At best, these different domains of exploration and understanding can serve to inform, challenge and inspire new ways of thinking, new developments in each, and make us all the better for it. It doesn't help us in the least, however, when we confuse the purposes and methodologies of one domain with the next, allow one domain to exceed its rightful place of vitality and jurisdiction and unduly impose its misguided will upon the other. In the case of such things like Intelligent Design, that is exactly what is taking place.

Ah, but is it? Energy<----->Force are integrated and can be measured. Space needs defining, and time seems to be a human construct to enable us to understand matters.

Take time, for example. Does it exist in and of itself? Or are the terms past, present and future just descriptors and we're in an ever-changing present? Start at midnight and plan to go 60 minutes to 1 am. Stop the clock at exactly 1215am. How much time has passed? 15 mins. How much to go in the future? 45 mins. Total = 60 mins. Where, then, is the present? The future just transforms into the past. There cannot be a present that can be measured.

Well, that's more philosophical meanderings. Too easy to get (pre)occupied in these thoughts.

(08-06-2015, 03:06 PM)NobodyNothing Wrote: [ -> ]...the entire idea of "origin", in the most primal, rudimentary sense of the term, ends in paradox, a gordian knot of sorts, at least from the standpoint of our minds, our thought, our reason, our perception in this way. Take the idea of the "origin" of this particular universe of ours. What originated? Well, simply put, everything that this universe is presently comprised of, has been comprised of, and will be comprised of.

But let's break down this mind-boggling diversity of our universe's power of creative expression to something resembling its fundamental parts, its primal integrants. As far as I can discern from all that I've read, from all that my pea-brain is able to comprehend, I see four fundamental parts to it, four primal integrants:

1) Time2) Space3) Energy 4) Force

All four of these primal ingredients, in and of themselves, are complete mysteries in and of themselves. What is time? What is space? What is energy? What is force? Nobody knows. They just are. We only know of them in how they express themselves to our minds and our senses. Time expresses itself as duration. Space expresses itself as place. Energy expresses itself as matter. Force expresses itself as occurrence. What's more is that each of these primal ingredients can only express themselves in relation to each other. For example, energy can't express itself as matter without duration, without place, or without occurrence. And vice-versa with each in their turn. They are totally interdependent upon each other in this way.

But let's take it even one step further. If each of these primal ingredients can only express themselves in relation to the others, do they in fact exist independently of each other? Might not each of these primal ingredients be further reduced to a single primal ingredient? And what might that possibly be? And if each of these primal ingredients are already complete mysteries in and of themselves, beyond our mind's comprehension in this way, it only stands to reason that such a single primal ingredient would also be a complete mystery in and of itself, would be at least as incomprehensible to our minds as any of the four primal ingredients already are in this way. Just as the four primal ingredients simply are, so such a single primal ingredient simply is.

Now we arrive at that gordian knot again, that paradox when it comes to the idea of "origin", at least as concerns this particular universe, this particular existence we inhabit. If we posit that everything of this universe, past, present, and future, is comprised of this single ingredient, this single ingredient that is completely mysterious, thoroughly incomprehensible in and of itself, what is our reason, our science, our scientific method to make of such a thing? What use is such a knowledge to us in this way?

Scientifically speaking, the simple fact of the matter is that we only know of it in how it expresses itself to our minds and our senses. Beyond that, all we can scientifically say about it, with any degree of truth or conviction, is that it simply is, in all the manifestations of its complexity and diversity, including us. The exclusive, proper domain of science is the exploration of its manifestations and the better understanding of its processes. That's it. And that's a LOT! Anything that gets in the way of this, that seeks to unnecessarily confuse and contaminate our scientific process, one of the most profound developments in the history of our species, is not only counterproductive, but downright injurious to our collective culture, our collective future, to our minds.

There are different domains of exploration and understanding for our species; they serve different purposes, have different methodologies. At best, these different domains of exploration and understanding can serve to inform, challenge and inspire new ways of thinking, new developments in each, and make us all the better for it. It doesn't help us in the least, however, when we confuse the purposes and methodologies of one domain with the next, allow one domain to exceed its rightful place of vitality and jurisdiction and unduly impose its misguided will upon the other. In the case of such things like Intelligent Design, that is exactly what is taking place.

Yeah, it was "Tuesday". lol That thought of a "zero diameter singularity" always tied my brain in a Gordian knot because it seemed to imply that this universe was in a state of "immanence" at some point. What could such a state of immanence be? Where was this immanence contained? What was the "before" if this universe wasn't some kind of perpetual oscillation machine? It's easy to understand how we came up with such imaginative concepts like The Garden of Eden.

As for the speed of time, it does seem somewhat of an arbitrary number, though it gets muddled-up when you consider the theoretical "inflationary" period that's all the rage.

At some point science became more interesting than mythology, or at least as interesting. I've often thought that until one got some rudimentary grasp of quantum theory/mechanics and the theory of evolution/natural selection, all that you believe had not been truly put to the test. They were game changers. It's almost as if you HAD to update your world view or you'd be left behind by history, a living relic of the past.