While the Pentagon's investigation has not been completed, Murtha reported:

Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. That is what the report is going to tell.
..
There was no firefight... There were no [roadside bombs] that killed these innocent people.
..
These [Marines] are under tremendous strain, more strain than I can conceive of. And this strain has caused them to crack in situations like this.

At the time of the incident, a Marine spokesman said that 15 innocent civilians had been killed in a roadside bomb explosion and 8 insurgents were killed by U.S. Marines in a related gun battle.

Outraged locals reported a very different version of events. The Marines forcefully entered a home and murdered 15 unarmed civialians. There had been no explosion from a roadside bomb. There were no insurgents in the area. The Pentagon flatly denied the Iraqi's version of events.

We first reported on this incident on March 22, 2006 with video evidence (see our flash video or wmv video) that the Pentagon's version of events were largely a fabrication. The Haditha video evidence, shot by an Iraqi film student, showed the aftermath of the murders in Haditha. Unarmed bodies of women children were seen slain in praying positions. The walls were covered with blood and bullet holes.

A 9 year old girl survived the Haditha massacre and was able to provide an eyewitness account of the crimes. In the video at the beginning of this article (pictured at left), the 9 year old girl describes what she witnessed, "The American's came into my room where my father was praying. They went to my grandmother and killed her too. I heard an explosion. They threw a grenade under my grandfather's bed."

The Haditha video evidence was eventually obtained by Time Magazine and broadcast on Arab television. The Pentagon gave way to public pressure and opened an investigation into the killings at Haditha. We can't help but wonder how many other atrocities have been ignored or covered-up due to a lack of public evidence and public pressure?

This video contains yesterday's report from the UK's Channel 4 News. Then, in an interview on MSNBC, Rep. Jack Murtha can barely contain his frustration with Bush Administration's Iraq "policy" which he blames for creating overwhelming stress on American soldiers. The playing time is about 8 minutes.

The biggest problem of wars of choice intended to occupy and change... you get the masses in massive civil unrest causing, as Dredd pointed out, "fire from both sides". You know longer can tell who you have to kill to keep from being shot at, so you start shooting anything that moves.

If only this were a REAL WAR.. one with REAL ENEMIES.. one where there was a REAL PLAN..

This, like Veitnam, is a horrible mess because there is no way to tell friend from foe. While I suspect it's not as bad as 'nam, it would appear to be the same premise to a certian degree.

And our leaders won't pull out because we haven't made sure OUR interests are being represented in the Iraqi Government. Shame.. 100s of thousands dead and dying because White Christians want to get a food hold in the Brown Islamic world (for various reasons.. none legal or valid)

One group which the regime favors, gets $950 a day to guard at a Wal Mart in New Orleans, which according to one source is "well surpassing the amount of Blackwater's contract to guard Ambassador Paul Bremer when he was head of the US occupation of Iraq" (link here).

Because of the disconnect between the lies and non-coverage in the MSM, and reality in Iraq, there's a powder-keg forming, bigger than normally possible, as opposed to if MSM = reality. Because, all of the truth going to come out at once at the end, instead of little-by-little in real time.

We all know the reality, those of us who watch LINK-TV, FSTV, Democracy NOW!, read the bradblog & rawstory. When it hits someone all at once, at the end, they snap.

Don't forget, these guys have FOX news & Rush Limbaugh piped into them via Rumsfeld & the Bush administration, so they are REALLY going to snap, all at once!!!

A Bushit war based on 9/11 and lies. Now our military is caught in the middle and this shit happens in war. We are not fighting the good fight. We must wave the white flag and get the hell out with the exception of a peace keeping force with a time table for leaving. Then maybe CONGRESS can watch loosechange911 and start impeachment proceedings.

Heartbreaking and unbelievable. I sure wonder how the history books are going to recap these years.

Start bringing our sons and daughters home NOW. IMPEACH most of Congress and the House along with all the good 'ole boys and Rice. Put them all in an unarmored humvee convoy and have them cruise up and down RPG Alley until they agree to resign and/or cry uncle. They ALL sold us out together. I hope we're around to see them all go to jail and they don't get to benefit from all the money they are receiving from their crimes. I hope we can end this madness somehow and recover. Liers, murderers and corrupt to the core thieves. Oil and special interest happy assholes, all of them, dem and rep. I bet we'll see a law coming soon to change our country's name from America to Haliburton.

Our only hope is for people to educate themselves about a candidate, not just vote for someone because of a D, I or R appearing after their name. There are good and bad people in both parties. Finally, of course, that hope can only be realized by getting fair and unrigged elections again. *Sigh*

God Bless our Troops. My son spent an entire year right near where this horrible story took place. He is not doing well mentally, as I'm sure most aren't. I hope to God he never did anything like this, it breaks my heart they are pushed to this.

I feel terrible for the innocent Iraqis killed & their families--these people will hate us forever & pass it down to their children. I can't blame them.
I feel terrible for the soldiers who would never have done this if it weren't for Bush's lies. They are under a terrible strain--worse than Vietnam. In Vietnam the enemy was not all around you constantly--even the Iraqi police they work with turn on them & kill them, much less civilians coming at them constantly. There were breaks in Vietnam.
I feel terrible for America.

If another political party, like the Democrats, got majority & began to fix every damn thing Bush ruined, we could try & mend what we can of this mess.
Of corse, we have no white-hat party like that.
We've got criminals or worse criminals to pick from.

We need to get out there in those streets & raise hell with our elected officials in large numbers.

Some politician said just the other day that nobody was demonstrating against the war.
Unfortunately, people like the Catholics ARE demonstrating against The Da Vinci Code movie because it claims Jesus had a child with Mary Magdalene & therefore challenges the veracity of THEIR story, that He didn't. But, you'll notice they are NOT demonstrating against the immoral war!
No.
That's because the movie challenges the hierarchy's credibility--what the bishops & Pope have claimed for 2000 years.
The Catholic Church really CARES about the hierarchy's authority & power.
They don't care about anything else.
We all learned that from the priest sex scandal, that if the hierarchy in the Catholic Church cares about anything---it's themselves & their unquestioned authority & power above all. They did not protect children from rape, instead, they chose to protect priests from prosecution for doing it to them.

Obviously, the Catholic Church does NOT care that innocent children were getting raped by their priests (except that they got caught despite the hierarchy's best efforts to intimidate families & hide it) & they do NOT care that innocent Iraqi families are getting killed either.

What other explanation is there for their lack of action against the Iraq war when the Pope said it's immoral & people are dying every day--yet they ARE organizing to boycott a movie because it challenges their story about Jesus?

#15 Who is the The Bushit loyalist? A character study in generalization.

"religious right"
1/4 religious type with thinking their man is standing up for their socio-religious views and their religious organization may be receiving money or tax break.

"misguided missile"
1/ 4 young military who wants to fight dem terrorist and will fight anyone anytime in the name of the God ole USA.

"old upper middle-class republican who completely believes mass media Bushit with blinders on AND dismisses all others as internet wackos"
They got their war against A - rabbs, their tax cut, and for some, a friend in Israel.

"Corporate Oil Elite"
These Bush supporter may not make up 1/8 BUT since they have the money and are in the control ..they ARE "the neocons" in power.

"The Total Dumbass"
Argue from their sphinkter without logic. With an IQ of about 80, this type can be found regularly defending Bush here at bradblog.

"God Bless our Troops. My son spent an entire year right near where this horrible story took place. He is not doing well mentally, as I'm sure most aren't. I hope to God he never did anything like this, it breaks my heart they are pushed to this."

________

We pray for the welfare of your son,.. hoping he
will find the strength to reconstruct his life and find
happiness,... thank him for putting in his time,.. will
his wounds ever heal,.... ? What a travesty that our
youth should be made to needlessly suffer.

A friend of ours who served in Iraq (and is now in Afghanistan) said that the stress is so relentless that soldiers finally begin putting themselves in the way of bullets because getting shot is the only way to get any relief.

“I can’t imagine something more irresponsible than putting a soldier suffering from stress on (antidepressants), when you know these drugs can cause people to become suicidal and homicidal,”

SUPPORT THE TROOPS. BRING THEM HOME

Report: Suicidal troops sent into combat
U.S. military violated own rules on mentally ill troops, newspaper finds
Updated: 7:04 p.m. PT May 13, 2006
HARTFORD, Conn. - U.S. military troops with severe psychological problems have been sent to Iraq or kept in combat, even when superiors have been aware of signs of mental illness, a newspaper reported for Sunday editions.
Some service members who committed suicide in 2004 and 2005 were kept on duty despite clear signs of mental distress, sometimes after being prescribed antidepressants with little or no mental health counseling or monitoring. Those findings conflict with regulations adopted last year by the Army that caution against the use of antidepressants for “extended deployments.”
“I can’t imagine something more irresponsible than putting a soldier suffering from stress on (antidepressants), when you know these drugs can cause people to become suicidal and homicidal,” said Vera Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection. “You’re creating chemically activated time bombs.”
Although Defense Department standards for enlistment disqualify recruits who suffer “persistent post-traumatic symptoms,” the military also is redeploying service members to Iraq who fit that criteria, the newspaper said.
“I’m concerned that people who are symptomatic are being sent back. That has not happened before in our country,” said Dr. Arthur S. Blank, Jr., a Yale-trained psychiatrist who helped to get post-traumatic stress disorder recognized as a diagnosis after the Vietnam War.

Grizzly - Excellent descriptions and right on. Can I add one more to include people like the lady I work with, who is older and admits she just doesn't want to know what's going on? Maybe the "elderly denial" group? I'm hoping I get the nerve someday to try explaining that she should care for the sake of her grandchildren and their grandchildren. Right?

Turk - Thank you so very much for your kindness. He has a wife and two young boys that he is thinking of leaving. Says he just feels like he needs to get away. After reading this story and everyone's thoughts, could he feel so guilty for killing and destroying innocent Iraqi families, that he feels he shouldn't be allowed to have one himself?? I never thought of that angle. omg that's so sad.

Concerned Citizen,
Please tell your son there are so many who feel his pain, as trite as that sounds...we do, as far as we are able. We can't KNOW all he experienced, but we wish him well, we wish him strength to hang on & time to heal. There are so many pulling for him and for all the soldiers who are in pain now. My heart goes out to both of you, & his family too. Hang in there.

The whole affair is very sad indeed. But I fail to feel the great concern for the mental health of the american troops who are slaughtering innocent civilians, that most on this blog seem to feel. They may have been fooled into fighting this war or against their will put in a position where things like these happen out of fear. But this can not be an excuse for their behaviour, they must take responsibility for the war crimes they have committed.

There is always the choice of desertion and refusal and even if it means jail and social exclusion it is certainly better then becoming a mentally twisted murderer of praying women.

We speak of those who in the military who are too young to comprehend the hellhole they were sent into,... look at the casualties of this war,.. look at their faces,.. many are boys not yet men,..

We speak to those who are financially disenfranchised,.. have little prospect for a job
that pays a working wage or opportunities for
higher education,.. they have little recourse but to consider the military,..

We speak to those who have been sent to this hellhole,.. who have lost their copping mechanisms
and can no longer contend with the horror of this war,.. the death of their comrades and the maiming of their friends. If a person is over the edge you do not load them up with a pharmacological cocktail
and send them off,.. back into combat. This is a recipe for war atrocities, fratricide, or suicide to be committed.

This is not a "just war" it is a "preemptive war",.. we
were under no circumstances of threat by Iraq. We
were lied to and the intelligence was fabricated in about 1,000 different ways. It is a war to enrich the financial elite,.. the financial elite want to be's the military industrial complex and the oil barons,... and the blood of the underclasses are shed on the battle field so the powerful can get richer yet. The world is watching us in this charade of a war,.. and they shake their heads in disgust.

The time has come that we shut this war down and return our soldiers back to their families so that the healing can begin. These warmongering war criminals who brought us this fake war should be dragged to an international court or tribunal and answer to and be punished for their crimes against
the citizens of this country and the humanity of the world.

Bring these boys and men home from this God forsaken battle field,.. the Iraqi's do not want us on
THEIR HOME-LAND,.. THEIR SOIL. We had no right to intercede from the outset,.. these fascists want to make this - by design an endless war.

We have polls for everything. Some border on the absurd ("Do you think Brad Pitt and Jennifer Anniston should get back together?"), others ask questions in a slanted way to evoke a desired response ("Would you favor eavesdropping on Americans if it prevented terrorist attacks?"). All polls, without exception, call for yes-or-no answers, which removes all nuance...the person being polled is thus a mindless casualty of the polling process.

The point is, polls are taken for the benefit of the person commissioning the poll, not for those being polled. Here are three poll questions that haven't been asked (of servicemen in Iraq), and probably won't be, but should be:

Innocent men, women, and children pray as brazen, crazed soldiers prey on them.

They have become madmen like the Madman in Chief, who laughs like it is some kid game, when it is pointed out to him that he is going lower in the polls than the most infamous president in our history.

Meanwhile the US Coast Guard warns ships coming into American waters that they are going to be boarded in about 24 hours (Raw Story here).

Gives new meaning to surprise inspections for WMD does it not? No wonder foreign nations from the unstable mid-east want our ports. They are extremely porus.

But we focus on the poor crossing the border, and want to build fences and add troops ... while the big holes that can carry nukes is left vulnerable.

What won't the republican dictatorship and the trolls lie and deceive Americans about?

Erik, your thinking pisses me off. You're missing the point. While I'm sure a select few are soley responsible for their own horrible actions, most are trained and ordered to do what they do. I think most of us raised our children to respect authority. What I didn't include in my teachings, because I never thought there would come a time, was when to defy authority. While thousands have defied this war and gone into hiding, or refused to serve and got a "dishonorable discharge" - those are not great options. You make it sound like it's so easy to say "no" and come out okay for it. Give me a break.

What I feel is so wrong about the prisoner abuse and horrible stories such as this one, is that nobody is ever held accountable for "ORDERING" these horrible things. The top brass just lie through their teeth and punish the little people who faithfully followed their orders. I feel sorry for the innocent Iraqis so much, I hope we get out of there very soon. It's all so wrong.

Joan, thank you for your kind words. I hope with our help and time, he can curb the anger and guilt he is feeling. I'm just hoping we can help him before he throws away the one thing he treasured so much before going over there - his family.

Just as a last thought, has anyone else heard about what they're now doing to the severely injured? I work with a man who's son was hit in the head by a sniper this past March near Baghdad. He is at Walter Reed and has been in and out of a coma since, but is starting to show improvement and seems to be able to slightly move all 4 limbs, but still can't wake up for any length of time. What the family (including his wife who is giving birth to their first child any day now) is now being put through is unjustifiable. The Army is trying to change his status from active duty to retired, so they can move him to some other hospital and won't have to continue the same level of care!!! That is the ultimate slap in the face for what he did for our country. When is this going to hit the news???? Incredibly shameful. Anyone else heard about them doing this?

Kestrelbrighteyes - As I wipe away the tears from reading those lyrics ...... thank you, I will. I ditto your feelings for all the other mothers, fathers and family members out there too.

To the family members not able to hug their children/parent/spouse/sibling because of the ultimate sacrifice they gave, .....well .....I can only imagine your pain and anger. I am so very sorry for your loss. I can "relate" somewhat however, as I spent 13 months preparing myself for that great possibility with my son. It's a horrible and helpless feeling. God Bless our Troops and Their Families.

Concerned Citizen - in San Antonio a rehab has been established with private funds. This is for the vets who need more rehab than our Veterans Hospital can give. Why not contact them and see if they have help for your son or can refer him.

Please remember it is not just men and boys being injured. My heart broke with a story of a young woman who has lost both her arms. We all can imagine just the daily chore of living for someone without arms.

Thank God for someone like John Murtha who will speak out and perhaps wake one more person up.
That is loving America when we try to correct the wrong.

To uniformed #32 - Murtha is not condemning our soldiers. As a decorated veteran he knows where the orders come from. He also knows the nightmares from war NEVER go away and he hurts for our men and women who have been put there by the lies of an evil, evil person.

I wish you would go to a VA hospital and talk with the wounded and then come back here to this blog. I would like to think you are not as mean as you sound, just too busy to be informed.

The stuff that comes out the end of a barrel and goes into Iraqis, struggling for a free nation and praying for relief, is not freedom ... no Ricky ... that stuff is the DU symbol of ignorance ... an ignorance that promotes death, disease, destruction, and most of your denial.

The remainder of your denial is just knee jerk self protection because you cannot see yourself as a promoter of death, disease, and destruction of human life.

Be careful, admit it slowly, and you can get thru it. Break on thru to the side of life.

"Ricky would never do that" is what you tell yourself ... "they" must be evil ... "Ricky could never do anything wrong, make a mistake, or be fooled by the fools". Ricky only wants "them" killed, maimed, and destroyed, not "us".

Hey, I really feel for all of you, who thru deceit and tom foolery, promote the deaths of innocent people in the name of fascism masking as democracy ... but there comes a time when if you do not awaken from your drunken stupor, you are guilty.

Very, very guilty. And it will, in the end, destroy all of the decency a person can have. Then you must "live" with what remains. For such a long, long time.

#36 AMEN!
I can confirm that the VA hospitals are not able to handle the PTSD cases we are seeing. I am very disturbed that soldiers are being given antidepressants to keep them in the war zone without relief. We have seen PTSD in all wars but the difference here is that over stressed soldiers are being kept on duty indefinitely. Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney are chickenhawks with no idea what the stress of constant battle fatigue will do to people. Murtha knows.

My daughter at age 10 saw one of her friends get run over by a car and killed. It happened right in front of our house and ever since people have left a memorial at the base of the telephone pole across the street. She has gone through hell the last 3 years over this and is only now beginning to come out of the depression caused by the event.
While it was the fault of the boy - he was on a bike showing off and haning onto the side of the moving car when he fell under it, she has blamed everyone from the police to the fire department and the EMTs.
It has affected every aspect of her life - she went from a straight A student to mearly getting by, has got into trouble - caught shop lifting, ran away several times - claiming it was because she missed the boy and didn't care what might happen to her.
It's taken much counselling from doctors, our pastor, her teachers and others for her to make it through.
I can't help but wonder what resources are available for this poor child in the photo.

Ricky#32 Excuse me but are we not all brothers and sisters of the Human Race? If you peel our White ,brown, yellow ,green, and purple skin are we not all Gods children? Do we not all deserve to live a life of Peace? The peoples of the world do not hate us for our freedoms ,but what we have done to their freedoms with our foreign policy. I see your posts and they depress me, that anyone on Gods earth can be so hateful and dense. If we were attacked would you not defend your country? Iraqis were not terrorists before this administration made them that. You just don't get it.You DO NOT have a compassionate bone in your body. Concerned Citizen, My heart and prayers go out to you and yours, and to all the families that are living this heartbreak. Know that we are with you in spirit even if we know not of what you speak in our own lives. This crap must end. The horror of this war is too much to handle. The people responsible MUST be held ACCOUNTABLE.

Excellent comment, Charlene! I was going to write a similar letter to my newspaper, when I saw the local religious people picketting the DaVinci Code, instead of picketting an illegal war, where hundreds-of-thousands are dying, including many children and women. Ruining American families. I know of several local families, who are in dissarray with the stop-loss program, and their children don't know when their fathers, or if their fathers, are comiing home.

They are picketting the DaVinci Code instead of the illegal war in Iraq!!! It makes me sick! They aren't picketting poverty either!!! Where's "the war on poverty"??? Nope, no "war on poverty"...NO WAY!!!

Ricky: The contraction for "you are" is "you're." It isn't "your." If you're (you are) going to post messages here, please elevate your writing above grade-school level. That will give you a chance to be understood, because the rest of us are adults.

Kes.. pRicky's post is about him lying to try and have a point.. nothing more. He is trying (again, and unsuccessfully) to incite emotion by using the word "liberal" as a dirty word, and creating lies around it to try and make that dirty word seem like something more than it is.

Basically, he's showing his ass..again.. because he can't get it through that pea-brain of his that there HAS been a PRELIMINARY investigation, and the results point to slaughter of innocents. He then waggles his infant-sized genitals out again by saying Liberals are for "evil", despite the fact that Liberals are for protecting all human rights, not just the rights of their friends. People like pRicky are way too self absorbed and introverted (and conceited and ignorant and .. you get the idea) to understand that there are rules of due process for a reason. That reason is what protects HIM as well as "some brown guy on the streets".. but pRicky is a hate-monger and bigot.. He figures if you aren't his race, you're evil and out to get him. It's that paranoid delusion he's trying to get across in his post.

And.. pRicky.. just what will it take to show you how wrong you are (about just about everything)? Lawsuit after lawsuit is being filed against these machines, and tons of them are for the 2004 elections (lending at least circumstantial evidence to support OUR position of hanky panky during the 2004 election). People from YOUR party are going to prison for playing naughty (and lets not forget the Dem kids that slashed a few tires.. they got punished too, and rightly so). Your representitives are going to prison in droves for corruption and violations of Public Trust (and to date, only ONE Dem has been caught up in the proceedings.. and in an unrelated matter).

When soldiers are placed under too much stress, they snap. It's a fact, pRicky.. If you'd bother to read even ONE Psychology book, you'd start to get an understanding of that.

There is no hope for people like pRicky. They are lost, destined to wander for ever in a haze of ignorance and hatered and bigotry with their tiny little minds reeling in agony at the first signs of logic and reason being forced upon them. Pity the trolls, for they have nothing else.

Remember that big conversation we had in the recent past?
You claimed the Dems WOULD impeach Bush IF they could--but you said they can't since they are in the minority.
You claimed that if we only vote for the Dems so they do get majority, they WILL impeach Bush.

I claimed the Dems won't do ANYTHING, whether in the minority or the majority.

According to Pelosi & now Conyers, I was correct & you were not, since they just announced the Dems will not seek impeachment.
I guess they're going to seek 20 lashes with a wet noodle instead.
That'll show em.

Thank you, Texaslady, I will look into that. I'd first have to make sure he'd be open to talking to someone. I agree with you that people are waking up, however slowly, they are waking up. Rep. Murtha has helped a great deal. Everyday there are probably a thousand who finally read something that makes them raise an eyebrow and give a damn.

I have 5 grandchildren and I worry about their lives, even more than my own.

I still say the dems and repubs are all in this together, at least the great majority of them. I can't believe the dems wouldn't act quickly to save this country by removing the dictator/decider and company. I can't believe they'd come out now and say they wouldn't. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. I guess it's a waste of time to go vote then, even if we could get a fair election. We, the common unmillionaires, do not have a chance for any meaningful future.

The Bush administration ruined the military for god knows how long...decades? Because, the only way to not be used by them, is to not join the military. Kids for generations, will have in the back of their mind, "Will some kooky president get elected, and fabricate a war to put me in harm's way? Since there's nothing I can do about this, I just better not join the military."

Where's the recruiting numbers that were at crisis level, that haven't been talked about in the MSM for quite a while???

Only idiots fall for statements like Ricky's, "you're against the soldiers".

RICKY: YOU ARE AGAINST THE SOLDIERS!!! YOU ARE UNPATRIOTIC!!! You want them to keep dying!!! We want them home, that means we don't want them to die, so we're FOR the troops.

Ya know ...just don't know how to say this exactly. I know a few Vietnam vets and they're both about as f&cked up and emotionally unstable as one can be.

I understand it's completely naturally to want to defend "our boys," although I've personally never been given to that level of jingoism ..that is, to oversimplify complex, mutli-facetted issues into good guys/bad guys rhetoric. That's what manipulators and War Pigs rely on to indoctrinate people.

I saw a bumper sticker that read "The Germans Supported Their Troops Too," and I gotta tell ya, in part, I certainly do agree with the sentiment in that.

Do I think that soldiers are "bad" men/women? No. It's not that simple. They go through the military's initiation process, they're brainwashed, trained to "dehumanize" the people they're instructed to murder, placed into hostile, unstable situations, yes....... however, when do they lose touch with their own inner voice of conscience?

Why don't more take a stand for what they know is morally right, and say, "No" ...no, I'm not going to kill people. Lock me up, send me away, or do whatever horrible sadistic shit jarheads do to conscientious objectors who "pussy out," but I'm not going to be a part of this sickness, period. It's too easy to pass the buck and say, "well gee, I was only following orders." Seems to be a cowardly way of justifying giving into the lowest common denominator.

Executing women and children out of a sense of "manliness" is a likely route to either god or bad karma or a traumatized conscience seriously kicking your ass around for eternity.

Charlene, I don't recall saying they "would" impeach, I said (if I recall correctly, not sure which thread you are talking about exactly) "they COULD" if they had a majority, and they can NOT -now- because the Pugs hold the majority.

And I don't know why the Dems are running away from Impeachment so hard and fast at the moment. One can only hope it's a ploy to not scare the sheeple.. the ones that would feel that "terrorists win" if we impeach our Criminal in Cheat. The Pugs were beating that drum hard for a while, and, unfortunately, there are enough idiots in this country to believe it. Also, there's the whole bit of having to get rid of Cheny and Rumsfeld as well, since they are the ones in line to be Pres. If we don't clear out the entire mess all at once, nothing will change (and at least for the moment, Shrubby is a counter balance of sorts to the true psychopaths Cheny and Rumsfeld).

There are no easy answers to this mess the Pugs have made of our nation. Conservatives claim to be about morals and deceny, but at the end of the day, that's bullshit. If they were true to their word, more people (not less) would be educated and thinkers and the Pugs would never have gotten such a strong hold on us. The TRUTH is, the "conservative" and "Republican" leadership want control, they don't care about "people" at all.

And, Charlene, I"ve said many many times, I don't have any faith in our Dem leadership either. They have shifted WAY RIGHT over the years. We need all together NEW leadership on NEW platforms, and with an intent of making this country a great country again, for EVERYONE that lives here, not just the rich and privledged.

Liberal policies make it harder for the US the connect the dots, and easier for Terroists to do there job.

Really Ricky? So why did the Bush budget scrap 9,790 border patrol positions? I guess thats the liberals fault eh chump? I guess its the liberals fault that Osama still roams free to right? I guess its also the liberals fault that Bush waited 51/2 years after 9/11 before he decided to do ANYTHING about border security. WAKE UP TOOL.

I agree to let it go since you 'got religion' now & realize the need for entirely new leadership, because our famed "two-party" system--isn't.

If we could impeach Bush--Cheney would go down with him, & Rummy, Condi etc will be proven liars too. They'll all go.
I believe that pretty picture will put the fear of god, or of the people, into Bush's successor.

I think they should all do their time at GITMO.

Oh, & the Republicans did not make "this mess" in a vacuum, Savanster. The Dems aided & abetted by not sounding the alarm bells. That IS their job, after all. They take an oath to uphold the Constitution "against ALL enemies, both foreign & domestic." To claim that they CAN'T do anything is bull. They have a mouth, don't they? Then they can do something.

Charlene, I've been asserting all along that the Dem party has some serious problems. Perhaps you have me confused with Dredd.. He seems to defend the Dems and excuse them for their lack of action..

Though, I can understand and agree that the Dems are mostly powerless in our current system.. The Pugs drive all the policy and refuse to keep this Administration in check. The Dems don't chair any comittees and can't effect any change until the Pugs back them up.

I also agree that it would be nice if the Dems were screaming from the rooftops about all the problems, but you also have to have the Press being willing participants... Obviously, the media is baught and paid for by the Pugs and Corporate America.. the Dems can't do anything about that either.

#59 Savantster
I didn't confuse you with anyone else.
I said we should push Dems to impeach now, before the Nov. elections, because after the elections they'll have no incentive to do anything.

YOU said they COULDN'T do anything now because they're in minority, so we should vote them into majority in Nov., when they WOULD impeach.
I claimed you were dreamin to think they'd do anything--ever.
You claimed they WOULD do something if only they COULD.
You got amnesia but I didn't.

You're STILL defending Dems & twisting the truth.

I don't like what you just showed me about yourself, Savantster.=You purposely twisted what I said to reinforce the bullshit stance you've been harping on all along.
Your intent is not honest.
I did not in any way state that the Dems are "powerless" in my above comment & it CANNOT be twisted to pretend you misunderstood.
Shame on you.
You're twisting what I said on purpose. ie. ("..I can agree that the Dems are mostly powerless..")
Dems are not "powerless".
They are "useless".
This entire mess we are in is the fault of the Democrats!
The Republicans do not operate alone up there in Washington, with no one knowing what they are doing.
The responsibility & duty to stop the Republicans fell soley on the shoulders of the Dems---& they failed---BIGTIME.
It is the duty & job of the Democrats to oppose--if they had done their job, we would not be in this mess. That's why we have the so-called 2-party system--one party acts as watchdogs on the other.
For you to claim they COULDN'T do anything is an absurd lie.
An evil lie, Savantster.
The MSM always report statements made by Dems--they could have screamed bloody murder the entire time.
The truth is--they DIDN'T.
And they just announced they won't do anything in the future either--so there's no longer any reason to vote for them.
Stop defending them--they don't deserve it.
The Democrats are NOT the answer, they're just part of the same problem the Republicans are displaying.
We all would like to know if you hold some kind of office or position in the Democratic party.
Do you?

SOLDIERS who object to taking part in a military occupation of a foreign country will face life in prison under measures due to be rubber-stamped in the House of Commons on Monday.

The little-noticed Armed Forces Bill will have its third reading in the Commons on Monday and left-leaning MPs are alarmed that it will legitimise pre-emptive military strikes.

It will change the definition of desertion to include soldiers who go absent without leave and intend to refuse to take part in a "military occupation of a foreign country or territory".

Under the current Army Act, desertion is defined as "going absent intending not to come back, going absent to avoid any service overseas, or going absent to avoid service when before an enemy".

The move comes as tensions escalate with Iran and follows a reported rise in soldiers absconding from the British Army since the invasion of Iraq.

Ben Griffin, a former SAS soldier who quit the army without facing punishment after being "appalled" at what was happening in Iraq, accused the government of changing the law ahead of any possible action in Iran.

"The government are kicking themselves in the teeth," he said. "Currently the British Army is a volunteer force, but using this sort of stick to beat soldiers into doing what they are told is turning it into a conscript army."

Mr Griffin, 28, from London, said that this would hamper morale and ultimately the effectiveness of the military.

Anti-war campaigners claim the change means it would expressly legitimise occupation and force soldiers to contravene the Nuremberg Principles, limiting their right to becoming conscientious objectors.

The Ministry of Defence has denied these charges and said that in fact the legislation introduces a new, lesser sentence of two years' imprisonment.

John McDonnell, the left-wing Labour MP, has tabled amendments to slash the maximum sentence for any desertion from life imprisonment to two years. He is also urging other MPs to throw out the new definition of desertion.

Angus MacNeil, the SNP MP who also spoke at the meeting, urged as many MPs as possible to debate the bill on Monday.

"There are a number of alarming measures in this bill that have appeared with little debate that need further scrutiny," he said.

The Ministry of Defence denied that the scope and definition was new or tougher than the existing law.

"Under current legislation the maximum penalty for all offences of desertion is life imprisonment. In most cases we have reduced this in the Armed Forces Bill to two years," a spokeswoman said.

However, where an offender deserted to avoid active service, such as the Iraq war, the maximum penalty would be applied, she said.

First off, please point out the thread you are using as a basis to say I said "they WOULD"..

Secondly, anyone that's been around a while (you're new here compared to a lot of us) knows I'm not fan of Democrats.. the fact that you can't seem to accept that, and call me a liar and evil is proof of such.

"YOU said they COULDN'T do anything now because they're in minority, so we should vote them into majority in Nov., when they WOULD impeach."

First, I don't want them to be a majority in November, that was DREDD who kept pushing that point. Again, I think you have me confused with him.. I've been saying VOTE 3RD PARTY.. If you think I'm "lying", then show the thread or back off.. ok?

"I did not in any way state that the Dems are "powerless" in my above comment & it CANNOT be twisted to pretend you misunderstood."

No, dear, YOU misunderstood. I said :

"He seems to defend the Dems and excuse them for their lack of action..

Though, I can understand and agree that the Dems are mostly powerless in our current system.."

The second sentence was pertaining to Dredd's assertion that the Dems are "powerless", and I agree with it. I wasn't saying YOU said it, so attacking me about it shows YOUR not being able to understand, or, at least, not being willing to discuss it to make sure there's no confusion. Calling me an evil liar and accusing me of twisting your words/intent is not fair, nor is it productive.

"t is the duty & job of the Democrats to oppose--if they had done their job, we would not be in this mess. That's why we have the so-called 2-party system--one party acts as watchdogs on the other."

This is where you are at a loss for understanding the failings of our current system. As was PROVED during some of the judical appointments, the Dems "threatened" to filibuster.. and the PUGS threatened to put to a MAJORITY VOTE the removing of that political tool. Would they have done it? I don't know.. BUT, there was nothing stopping them (other than 'political fear' of what it might look like). IDEALLY, you are right, and the minority party is a check against the majority, BUT, that ONLY applies when something gets to the President and he VETOS it, and they NEED the minority to pass it anyway. As it is, almost EVERYTHING in Congress is based on MAJORITY vote (meaning, one more than 1/2), and the ENTIRE Congress is controlled by Pugs. That means, if the PUGS want to do it, THEY CAN, and no one can stop them (no matter the amount of screaming). That is why I say our "2-party system has failed".. we need more people who are interested in "doing the right thing", and not willing to pander to a party. If we didn't have only 2 parties, we'd not have as much to worry about with "majority/minority" since we'd have a hodgepodge of "people" voting their duty.

"For you to claim they COULDN'T do anything is an absurd lie.
An evil lie, Savantster."

You tell me what they could have done (really done to effect change).

"The MSM always report statements made by Dems"

As an estute debater, I tend to be wary of "absolute claims".. In this case, I call bullshit as the Media has been SILENT on MANY issues, as pointed out by THIS BLOG, and the fact that many many people in this country just don't have a clue as to how badly things are going in general.

"We all would like to know if you hold some kind of office or position in the Democratic party.
Do you?"

Again, you seem to be a bit new, and from what I've seen with most of your posts, a bit of a hot-head and occasionally what I would call "out of touch with reality" on some of these issues.

I'm no Dem.. I'm no Repug.. I don't vote because I don't think the choices we normally have for politicians can be trusted. I've watched Dems become Repug-lites over the past 20 years (that I've been watching), and it makes me sick. I've come to the description as "Dems tend to care for people, Pugs tend to care for business.. otherwise, there's not a lot of difference these days".. and, in fact, I've said as much in SEVERAL threads on this site.

I've sat back and watched you attack various people and said nothing. But when you decide to attack me for no good reason.. say "since you 'got religion' now" as if I some how changed my posiition (I have not, you just didn't understand my position).. imply I've asked to "let it go" when I've done no such thing.. I can't sit here and let that fly.

Anyone that's been following this blog for any length of time knows who I am. They know the picture you tried to paint is not accurate with how I express my position. In fact, 1/2 of what you are saying seem to be things Dredd was touting for a long time (how we should not blame the Dems since they were powerless.. to which I replied that they don't seem to be doing -anything-, even things IN their power... like go back to their districts and get on the local news (where they can) and scream about the problems going on.. yet, you don't seem to have read those posts of mine).

I understand you're angry.. I understand you're frustrated, we all are. But attacking me because issues you have isn't going to get anything done. And, I'll not let baseless attacks go unanswered (unless it's a troll looking to start a fight). I'll also not repeat myself to help people with poor reading skills understand what I mean unless they are polite and ask for clarification before calling me "an evil liar".

Now I'll "let it go" since there's nothing to be gained from continueing this converstation. And, it's not about this thread anymore.. which, given the gravity of the problem of our troops murdering civilians, seems sad.

Perhaps this is what we're fighting for? So we can have cheaper clothes while slave labor is raging 1/2 way around the world?

Course, to make sure they are a free country, and the people adequately exploitable, it doesn't hurt to kill a few thousand civilians to make sure they become compliant, right? Globalization at it's best!

Answer the question, boy.
You avoided it.
Are you paid to blog or not?
Yes or no?
I believe you once said you have some job related to computers.
That doesn't mean you're not a troll.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth like one.
I suppose I'll have to search the entire site to nail your lies.
It may be worth it.

First, I SAID I"m not with EITHER party.. what part of "not a troll" can't you gather from that? "I'm no Dem.. I'm no Repug.. I don't vote because I don't think the choices we normally have for politicians can be trusted." how the fuck does that translate to "Dem plant"??

To put it in simple terms for your simple mind...

NO, I"m not paid to blog... NO I don't work for any party.. NO my job has nothing to do with politics in ANY way..

And, NO, you never "had this conversation" with Dredd, but you are CLEARLY confusing statements made by HIM (that I'm aware of.. perhaps someone else made them too) with things I'VE said.

Please, DO scour the boards for posts from me. You'll see just how wrong you are to be attacking me on these matters.. Once you've done your homework, I'll expect a full appology..

Until then, I'm not going to bother responding to ANY of your posts because you can't seem to comprehend the concept of "dialog".. I'm tired of your posts in general, and now fed up with your being a bitch to someone for no good reason. Your attempts at slandering and discrediting me have reached my limit. You have crossed the line (with me now, and with others in other posts of yours I've seen) and I"m done dealing with someone as clearly unstable and radicle as you.. You blow your top at people all the time, and I refuse to respond to you any more if you're going to behave that way with me.

It WAS you, Savantster.
I remember rather then inspiring awe as you intended--your name reminded me of 'idiot savant' every time I typed it.
You're a legend in your own mind, an "ESTUTE" debater!
(However, spelling is not your forte)
I'm shakin in my boots with awe.
When I first came on the blog, I corrected you, in passing, when you misused "metaphor". You hung on to that little correction like a bulldog instead of letting it go & argued you HAD used it properly, tried every trick you knew--but in the end, my proof was so airtight, you had to admit I was, in fact, correct.
What an ego.

LMAO.. didn't I just tell you you did NOT have "this conversation" with him?

/sigh

And yes! please pick on my spelling! it makes you "right" and me "wrong".

This is what I'm talking about, right here. When you "blew into the blog" and started bitching about "metaphor versus analogy" because you were offended by my cock-sucking 'metaphore', it would seem you decided you didn't like me. Too bad.

note, you started in on Agent99 .. She mentioned using a thesaurus, and you had to keep picking (was the first time I got the feeling you were a petty person) with "Agent 99 #18

Then, of course, you had to "prove" you were "right" about something petty (and I recon I was guilty of the same thing, because you wouldn't let it go).. You said "Savantster #23

I see you want to push this subject.

You made the mistake of looking these 2 words up in a thesaurus, which is intended to give you similar words with various SHADES of meaning, so that you can pick the one that best fits what you want to say.

Well, analogy & metaphor have similar, but different meanings.
"

So, instead of letting it GO, knowing FULL WELL that they were "similar words with various SHADES of meaning", you had to "push this subject"..

What's funny is, I never went back to that thread (until now), and just noticed this bit.. "Therefore---you also misused the word "anal".
"Anal retentive" means to continue to hold on to a thing or an issue beyond it's productive life."..

lmao.. no, I didn't misuse it.. I knew exactly what I was saying. Instead of adding ANYTHING to that thread, you started picking at posts and being ANAL.

So.. now we're here AGAIN.. with you NOT supporting your allegations that I'm a "liar" or that any of the attacks you made against me have any merrit.. instead, you act like a troll and bring up something of NO RELAVANCE from well over 2 months ago..

I think this is from RawStory...not sure...I've been jumping around alot:

"...Rep. John Murtha....on Monday is to be awarded the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award in Boston for his bold pronouncement that U.S. troops should be pulled out of Iraq --- a statement many say helped change the public debate over the war, because of Murtha's past as a Democratic hawk and retired Marines Reserves colonel who enjoyed easy access to presidents....

....Being honored along with Murtha on Monday is Alberto Mora, a former Navy general counsel who warned Pentagon officials that U.S. policies dealing with terror detainees could invite abuse...."

Charlene,
I just wanted to say in regard to dems & impeachment.....
You may turn out to be right.

But I suspect and HOPE that when Pelosi & Conyers say "We will not seek impeachment..." they mean that dems will not do what repubs did with Clinton: jump in immediately and demand that bush be impeached.
RATHER, they will do it properly, lawfully & meticulously; investigate every action, every illegality (which Conyers has been carefully documenting as they happen, in his numerous, unanswered letters to the white house); gather hard evidence & BUILD A SOLID CASE for impeachment, "if" it turns out to be warranted (since by law I assume that even a disgrace-of-a-president like this one is "innocent until proven guilty".

I hope also that cheney, gonzalez, rumsfeld, rove & rice (at the very least) should be impeached simultaneously with bush, if that's possible & I hope to God it is, because I agree that the prospect of either cheney or hastert at the helm is horrible to contemplate. Although if the dems are in power in this future-fantasy scenario, that point, I would think, would be moot, because then the succession would be different, yes?

That's my take on it. I can't say I'm 100% sure of ANYBODY's motives or integrity in congress or anywhere else, but what tiny particles of "faith" I have left are in Conyers, Feingold & maybe Al Gore.

And in Brad, if he'd like to run for president. Damn, THEN I'd celebrate.

My nephew is a Camp Pendleton marine who leaves in September for his fourth tour of duty in Iraq. He is a brave young man who does not support this "war" but serves his country honorably. My greatest hope is that we and the 71% can start the healing in November and prevent Brian's fifth, sixth, etc. return to hell.

A better man than you would have graciously accepted the information re the use of "metaphor" in the helpful spirit in which it was offered--so that he wouldn't continue to embarrass himself in the future by demonstrating his ignorance.
Especially a person such as youself, who takes great pride in being "estute".
However, we should not think less of you because of your tawdry responses.
You can't help it if vicious prissiness is all you've got where your manhood should be.

i jsut wana say that my brother is in 3-1. the MArines that supposably did the massacre. but all i gotta say is why are we still in Iraq, and if my convoy was attacked id defend myself and my fellow Marines that are diein over seas in Iraq over some bull shit.!

Say whatever you like who is right who is wrong BUT all this will never go away .... Because USA thinks it has the right to teach everyone how to live ? how to be civilized ? What ever the so called civilized ( anything but) west thinks is right is not right for eveyone there are people with different views to the west and if they are so democratic they should let it be rather than try and change the world in their own image. Until that happens which will be never (just look at history) nothing will change you will keep killing innocent in the name of freedom and peace.

Okay, here is a good example of those who are quick to question our country's motives, and condem our soldier's motives as well. Even before the jury's in in with the verdict? All you armchair wannabies out there, who sit and mouth off, remember this. You don't know what is going on over in Iraq. The man on the video saying the marines are stressed. Give me a break. Have you all forgotten a few factoids. The middle eastern joe"s don't care what you debate here. Their only mission is to get us out of Iraq before our objectives are finished, and make us look bad while they do it. You don't help us by making statements you know nothing about. For all you know, the Iraqis shot their own to make the marines look bad. Think before you speak, and make no judgements. Your opinions are useless without the facts. Oh, by the way, they were not found to be at fault in the end. EWJ