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Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

It doesn't matter what Sasakibe has shown (or rather, what he hasn't)
- he was said to be strong enough to be a captain.
- his bankai, somehow (under unknown circumstances), put a scar on Yamamoto (no one else, except Juha Bach, has done this)
- his bankai was said to be stronger than the one used by the quincy against Yamamoto (which did nothing).

Hype alone means that Sasakibe wins this and all future rounds!
Discussion over.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

zimbardo
Well, I don't think Urahara showed much more.
Especially since most of his feats are against evolving Aizen who mostly tanked everything people threw on him without even dodging. Only, when he was bored he actually decided to end this and head to destroy Karakura town.
And I really hope noone will say that Urahara is a genius scientist. It's not a quise or test. It's a fight.

Anyway, About Sasakibe... I don't really know how strong he was, but if he managed to complete his Bankai in a month! The thing never achieved by any of the characters so far. Even Ichigo managed to do it in Dangai in three months. So that's quite an achievment. Also, when he completed his Bankai, going by his facial appearence he was younger than Gin who we call a prodigy. So this guy seems to be the best prodigy. And he was considerably older than Shunsui. I would say around the same age as Unohana. So I think he should be around Shunsui-Unohana level, especially with his Bankai. We should also not judge the guy by what Driscol showed, since it was clearly shown that just completed Bankai by Sasakibe did more damage than what Driscol managed to do with it. It just shows that even if you still Bankai it doesn't mean that you will be able to use it even close to its real potential. And well Sasakibe's Bankai seems to be one of the strongest in Bleach so far.

Also until Urahara shows his Bankai I just can't vote for him in this fight. Since normally people go here according the logic that most of the Captains should be more or less equal (at least the difference shouldn't be overvelming with the exception of senior Captains like Unohana and Shunsui with the others (not taking in consideration Yama and Aizen, since they are different cases)), then a Captain with Bankai should be quite stronger than a Captain without Bankai. And here not only Sasakibe is the one who has Bankai, but his Bankai is also damn destructive and fast and can be used on quite a big area.

P.S. Still, Urahara will win just because he is a fan favourite. And well if Sasakibe met Aizen or Ichigo I would have voted for them, not for Sasakibe.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

He is a shinigami, his reiatsu goes through his wrists, he is done for. I don't think mister Soul-Society's-Wild-Card-and-hyped-to-infinity would lose to Choujiro. Urahara in Shikai could mop the floor with Ichigo. Only GT surprised him. Choujiro couldn't win with bare-handed Ichigo. I mean come on, all that hype that Choujiro got is bullshit. His ability is maybe good, but he didn't use it for a long time. He sure got rusty, his swordmanship isn't that good, as we saw in SS arc. He is someone who would rely solely on ability. I think Urahara can handle him with ease.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Originally Posted by Duniak

He is a shinigami, his reiatsu goes through his wrists, he is done for. I don't think mister Soul-Society's-Wild-Card-and-hyped-to-infinity would lose to Choujiro. Urahara in Shikai could mop the floor with Ichigo. Only GT surprised him. Choujiro couldn't win with bare-handed Ichigo. I mean come on, all that hype that Choujiro got is bullshit. His ability is maybe good, but he didn't use it for a long time. He sure got rusty, his swordmanship isn't that good, as we saw in SS arc. He is someone who would rely solely on ability. I think Urahara can handle him with ease.

Not saying I disagree, but this is just unfair all around to Choujiro. The only time Urahara mopped the floor with Ichigo was at the beginning of the manga when Ichigo first got his abilities and was still in the process of learning them. The Ichigo that Choujiro went up against had made incredible leaps and bounds in power which was shown when Choujiro went down against Ichigo, so that is a pretty unfair comparison. Also where has it been said that he was rusty and his swordsmanship wasn't good? We haven't seen him in one fight.

That being said, Urahara does take this fight. He has more than enough feats to win this round comfortably. In Ginjo and Choujiro's fight, I really regret defending Choujiro although I didn't vote for him.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Going by hype or feats it doesn't matter, Urahara wins this easly imho. I don't care if Sasikabe has a bankai or not, if he was strong he would never have been defeated in one hit by barehanded shikai Ichigo.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

And I really hope noone will say that Urahara is a genius scientist. It's not a quise or test. It's a fight.

Yeah it's a fight and that's exactly where his intelligence shines, not only in a research lab.
He can analyze attacks, see patterns in someones fighting style, predict attacks and much more.

In his short fight with Yammy he managed to analyze Reishi composition of his technique and his muscle movements which allowed him to completely negate the attack. I think that him being a genius helped a lot with that.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Oh boy. Ignorant claims about hype, and yet regarding Sasakibe's bankai, the ONLY thing we don't know is the power. Obviously that is very important. But we do know HOW it works, the mechanics and style of fighting it creates. This is just as important as power, so to say there is NOTHING to go on is stupidity.

A lightning dome is summoned along with clouds. From under the dome, lightning can be summoned from the clouds at a high rate to strike down onto foes very quickly in a substantial area. It is not unfair to assume this is an immobile, spamming form of assault. If the power of said lightning strikes wasn't in question, there wouldn't be a damn thing to say about hype.

Using sense, if what I said above is correct about the fighting style, which was SHOWN, than I do not see why Urahara can't do what he has SHOWN and do that ridiculous kido combo to annihilate Sasakibe. The lack of mobility will increase his suceptibility to it, his little portable gigai trick can buy him the opening, ta da.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Originally Posted by eefrit

Not saying I disagree, but this is just unfair all around to Choujiro. The only time Urahara mopped the floor with Ichigo was at the beginning of the manga when Ichigo first got his abilities and was still in the process of learning them. The Ichigo that Choujiro went up against had made incredible leaps and bounds in power which was shown when Choujiro went down against Ichigo, so that is a pretty unfair comparison. Also where has it been said that he was rusty and his swordsmanship wasn't good? We haven't seen him in one fight.

That being said, Urahara does take this fight. He has more than enough feats to win this round comfortably. In Ginjo and Choujiro's fight, I really regret defending Choujiro although I didn't vote for him.

If his swordmanship was anywhere near normal VC he wouldn't be trashed like Isane and Omaeda. Looking at his performance back then, I can safely assume, that is highly reliant on ability. And this isn't enough on Urahara. One opening and you're done for.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Again about that ridiculous Kidou combo... It was made against Aizen who didn't even try to dodge. The same Urahara stated that if Aizen was as cautious as he was before he wouldn't be able to make such a good display of Kidou usage... How can we say that other opponents would stay in the same place the same way evolving Aizen did against Urahara?

Also, about Urahara's intelligence. He never showed anything with it. The only exception was his portable Gigai, but seriously if Sasakibe's Bankai can spam lightnings, then I don't really see how portable Gigai can help him in such situation. Sasakibe just needs to spam lightning in order to prevent Urahara from casting Kidou.

Duniak
Also, Urahara never mopped floor with Ichigo... He only managed to scary Ichigo, because he didn't even have a sword and barely knew anything about his Shinigami powers and at that time wasn't even at a level of 3rd seat. So it's quite unfair to say that Urahara mopped the floor with Ichigo. Actually, when Ichigo just got his Shikai and uncounciously used Getsuga Urahara barely managed to defend himself. He even said that if he didn't use his Benehime's shield in time, he would have lost a hand... And after that Ichigo made quite a progress by defeating Ikkaku, Renji, Zaraki, achieving Bankai, thus getting way stronger after all of this and only then he defeated Sasakibe. But still, Sasakibe didn't even propperly use his Shikai in that fight, not even talking about Bankai. And after the latest revelations I doubt it would be a win for Urahara, especially since it would be a fight between Shikai and Bankai. And in such a fight I would always vote for Bankai, especially since Urahara never showed anything that special in terms of fighting. His only good department in which he exceeds is Kidou, but again, in order for it to work on its full power you need incantation and with such Bankai as Sasakibe's Urahara won't have time to make any incantation, since he would be under the storm of lightning.
You should also take in consideration that just one attack after Sasakibe's real Bankai who he just complaeted managed to make a scar on Yama's face that never dissapeared. At the same time, Yama never got such a wound from any other opponent except for his own sacrificial Kidou. And that can really tell what was the power of Sasakibe's Bankai. And he achieved it around 1000 years ago, so he obviously managed to evolve it even more during those years, so I don't really see how Urahara can win if we go by the logical thing that under normal circumstances the one with Bankai wins against the one with Shakia if the opponents are more or less equal.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Duniak
Also, Urahara never mopped floor with Ichigo... He only managed to scary Ichigo, because he didn't even have a sword and barely knew anything about his Shinigami powers and at that time wasn't even at a level of 3rd seat. So it's quite unfair to say that Urahara mopped the floor with Ichigo. Actually, when Ichigo just got his Shikai and uncounciously used Getsuga Urahara barely managed to defend himself. He even said that if he didn't use his Benehime's shield in time, he would have lost a hand...

Yup, he wasn't prepared at all and used shield at the last time. Who could have expected captain-level attack from such a noob?

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

And after that Ichigo made quite a progress by defeating Ikkaku, Renji, Zaraki, achieving Bankai, thus getting way stronger after all of this and only then he defeated Sasakibe. But still, Sasakibe didn't even propperly use his Shikai in that fight, not even talking about Bankai.

Still, Byakuya with shikai could handle Ichigo pretty much. But Choujiro in Shikai, who was supposed to be MUCH stronger than Byakuya, lost to bare-handed Ichigo. In Shikai he is damn weak. That's why I'm saying, that he relies on Bankai. And he didn't even use it in battle, as Byakuya stated. He used in on Yamaji, that was surprised with it's power just like Urahara was with Ichigo's first GT.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

And after the latest revelations I doubt it would be a win for Urahara, especially since it would be a fight between Shikai and Bankai. And in such a fight I would always vote for Bankai, especially since Urahara never showed anything that special in terms of fighting. His only good department in which he exceeds is Kidou, but again, in order for it to work on its full power you need incantation and with such Bankai as Sasakibe's Urahara won't have time to make any incantation, since he would be under the storm of lightning.

He countered full-powered, point-blank Cero from Yammy with ease. Copied Bala with his Zanpakuto. His Shikai was shown to have binding techniques, attacks, just like Kido. His Kido could one-shot Aizen. Blabla, he wouldn't catch Choujiro. Choujiro lost to Ichigo's Hakuda. The only thing that is scary about him is his Bankai. Do you really think, that Urahara wouldn't be able to utilize

and then use his ultimate Kido to kill Shinigamis, then you're gravely mistaken. Yes, Aizen could evade his techniques. Because he was 10x faster than anyone. But Choujiro isn't. There is a simple way to outsmart him. And you really think, that he can spam endless and STRONG lightning? It'd wear him out. He is not particularly fast. He can be caught. And he would be if he fought with Urahara.

Quote:

You should also take in consideration that just one attack after Sasakibe's real Bankai who he just complaeted managed to make a scar on Yama's face that never dissapeared. At the same time, Yama never got such a wound from any other opponent except for his own sacrificial Kidou. And that can really tell what was the power of Sasakibe's Bankai. And he achieved it around 1000 years ago, so he obviously managed to evolve it even more during those years, so I don't really see how Urahara can win if we go by the logical thing that under normal circumstances the one with Bankai wins against the one with Shakia if the opponents are more or less equal.

He didn't use Bankai for 200 years. And Yamaji's body is bruised all over. Choujiro isn't the only one to wound him...

Their battle wouldn't be Shikai vs Bankai, but intelligence vs power. Urahara's best weapon is NOT his Shikai, but his self-invented Kidos, that can one-shot anyone. So I don't think, that it's simple Shikai vs Bankai. For me, Urahara has advantage in everything except Zanjutsu. Is it enough to deal with Choujiro? I think so.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Duniak

Quote:

Yup, he wasn't prepared at all and used shield at the last time. Who could have expected captain-level attack from such a noob?

Well, if the same Urahara stated that he would have lost a hand if he tried to tank such an attack says that either Urahara isn't that much of a tank or that Ichigo was already quite strong. I would say the first.
Because a bit later Ichigo actually managed to tank Byakuya's Shikai. Of course he wasn't unhurt, but he tanked it all before going Bankai. So it just shows the difference between their tanking abilities already at this ealy stage of Ichigo's progress.

Quote:

Still, Byakuya with shikai could handle Ichigo pretty much. But Choujiro in Shikai, who was supposed to be MUCH stronger than Byakuya, lost to bare-handed Ichigo. In Shikai he is damn weak. That's why I'm saying, that he relies on Bankai. And he didn't even use it in battle, as Byakuya stated. He used in on Yamaji, that was surprised with it's power just like Urahara was with Ichigo's first GT.

Well, first I wouldn't say that it was easy for Byakuya to fight Shikai against Shikai. And we should also consider the difference in experience and all that.
About Sasakibe... I don't think at that point of the story Kubo planned to make Sasakibe as strong as he made him in the present Arc. That's all. We can just complain, but it is what he wanted to do. It was even explisitly stated that he wasn't Yama's subordinate or pupil as the majority of Gotei. He was his partner from the begining.
Well, even though if he might rely on Bankai in this fight, it's still ok, since if he can spam such a tremendous Bankai that even managed to scar and suprise Yama... It's not as good as to show that Ichigo managed to suprise Urahara this way. Urahara isn't Yama-ji. To be able to scar and suprise him is a quality. At least I think so.

Quote:

He countered full-powered, point-blank Cero from Yammy with ease. Copied Bala with his Zanpakuto. His Shikai was shown to have binding techniques, attacks, just like Kido. His Kido could one-shot Aizen. Blabla, he wouldn't catch Choujiro. Choujiro lost to Ichigo's Hakuda. The only thing that is scary about him is his Bankai. Do you really think, that Urahara wouldn't be able to utilize

1. Unreleased Yamy is the weakest among Espada. So it's not a big of a feat. When he attacked unreleased Ulquiorra he couldn't even scratch Ulquiorra...
2. Again about Kidou. It didn't one-shot Aizen. Also, It's obvious that if Aizen wasn't undergoing such a transformation he wouldn't have tanked all the Kidou Urahara threw at him. Even Urahara himself stated it.
3. Again, I doubt that when Ichigo managed to take down Sasakibe he was meant to be made as strong as he was made in this arc.
4. Also, the same Urahara never showed any speed feats above average Captain level, so I don't really know how he would try to avoid Sasakibe's Bankai spamming lightnings who each managed to scar Yama who is the best tank in this manga so far.

and then use his ultimate Kido to kill Shinigamis, then you're gravely mistaken. Yes, Aizen could evade his techniques. Because he was 10x faster than anyone. But Choujiro isn't. There is a simple way to outsmart him. And you really think, that he can spam endless and STRONG lightning? It'd wear him out. He is not particularly fast. He can be caught. And he would be if he fought with Urahara.

Again, you are clearly overestimating Urahara. Even normal Aizen would have evaded such a technique. He just didn't want to dodge and wanted to try his limits compared to Isshin's, Urahara's and Yoruichi's firepower. When he was tired of this he one-shotted all three of them at the same time.
And again about Kidou. To make it as strong as he did against Aizen he needs time to use the incantation and he won't get this time, while trying to evade lightnings.
And about lightning. Even one is strong enough to scar Yama and normal speed of lightning is damn fast, so if he at least able to use them like one in several seconds,then he would just tire Urahara quite quickly, since he won't be able to dodge practically every second, since any lightning is damn fast. And even a simple normal lightning might be quite dangerous if not lethal. And if Urahara is shot even once, his speed and stamina would discrese considerably. After that he won't ba able to evade much more.

Quote:

He didn't use Bankai for 200 years. And Yamaji's body is bruised all over. Choujiro isn't the only one to wound him...

I know that Yama has scars over his Body, but have you even seen anyone besides Sasakibe beeing able to even put a scar on him onscreen? Even tanking his own Shikai didn't inflict him incurable scars.

Quote:

Their battle wouldn't be Shikai vs Bankai, but intelligence vs power. Urahara's best weapon is NOT his Shikai, but his self-invented Kidos, that can one-shot anyone. So I don't think, that it's simple Shikai vs Bankai. For me, Urahara has advantage in everything except Zanjutsu. Is it enough to deal with Choujiro? I think so.

Well, again. His really lethal Kidou needs time to prepare, they need incantation, while Sasakibe's Bankai doesn't. It can spam lightnings. Urahara doesn't have the possibility to use Bankai in this tournament and he hasn't shown enough speed to evade lightnings, so I don't really thinki that he can win this. And also Urahara isn't a tank, so he won't be able to stand after taking Sasakibe's attack like Yama.

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Duniak

Well, if the same Urahara stated that he would have lost a hand if he tried to tank such an attack says that either Urahara isn't that much of a tank or that Ichigo was already quite strong. I would say the first.

Of course he isn't a tank, but there are other means of dealing with such an attack. For example, dodging. Urahara, as former part of 2nd Squad ad Yoruichi's spar partner should be very profficient at dodging. In his battle with Yammy when they came with Luppi etc. he was dodging everything just fine.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Because a bit later Ichigo actually managed to tank Byakuya's Shikai. Of course he wasn't unhurt, but he tanked it all before going Bankai. So it just shows the difference between their tanking abilities already at this ealy stage of Ichigo's progress.

Those tanking abilities depend on reiatsu. Comparing those two's reiatsu is pointless. Ichigo is a beast in that area.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Well, first I wouldn't say that it was easy for Byakuya to fight Shikai against Shikai. And we should also consider the difference in experience and all that.
About Sasakibe... I don't think at that point of the story Kubo planned to make Sasakibe as strong as he made him in the present Arc. That's all. We can just complain, but it is what he wanted to do. It was even explisitly stated that he wasn't Yama's subordinate or pupil as the majority of Gotei. He was his partner from the beggining.

I know Kubo didn't plan it, but we can't just abandon everything until now because Kubo said so. We have to decide looking at whole manga.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Well, even though if he might rely on Bankai in this fight, it's still ok, since if he can spam such a tremendous Bankai that even managed to scar and suprise Yama... It's not as good as to show that Ichigo managed to suprise Urahara this way. Urahara isn't Yama-ji. To be able to scar and suprise him is a quality. At least I think so.

Urahara isn't Yamaji and Ichigo back then wasn't Choujiro. :P

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

1. Unreleased Yamy is the weakest among Espada. So it's not a big of a feat. When he attacked unreleased Ulquiorra he couldn't even scratch Ulquiorra...

Well, I meant Ulquiorra knew, that he wouldn't stand a chance against Urahara. Aizen himself told him not to engage them.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

2. Again about Kidou. It didn't one-shot Aizen. Also, It's obvious that if Aizen wasn't undergoing such a transformation he wouldn't have tanked all the Kidou Urahara threw at him. Even Urahara himself stated it.

Aizen said "If it was someone other than me... No. If it was someone other than me AFTER subjugating Hogyoku, I'll be done for"

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

4. Also, the same Urahara never showed any speed feats above average Captain level, so I don't really know how he would try to avoid Sasakibe's Bankai spamming lightnings who each managed to scar Yama who is the best tank in this manga so far.

We didn't see that fight. Choujiro looked tired, Yamaji was surprised. Maybe he just underestimated him and didn't care about his attack and boom. Scar made.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Again, you are clearly overestimating Urahara. Even normal Aizen would have evaded such a technique. He just didn't want to dodge and wanted to try his limits compared to Isshin's, Urahara's and Yoruichi's firepower. When he was tired of this he one-shotted all three of them at the same time.

Of course I know that. But normal Aizen is still MUCH MUCH MUCH more powerful than Choujiro IMO. And I know Urahara wasn't as strong as Hogyoku-Aizen. I use it only to judge his techniques' power. I'm sure Urahara would find a way to somehow use those techniques on him.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

And again about Kidou. To make it as strong as he did against Aizen he needs time to use the incantation and he won't get this time, while trying to evade lightnings.

That's why he would use numerous bindings, right? Aizen could break free, but normal Shinigami that is in the same tier wouldn't be able to escape 3-4 Bakudos.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

And about lightning. Even one is strong enough to scar Yama and normal speed of lightning is damn fast, so if he at least able to use them like one in several seconds,then he would just tire Urahara quite quickly, since he won't be able to dodge practically every second, since any lightning is damn fast. And even a simple normal lightning might be quite dangerous if not lethal. And if Urahara is shot even once, his speed and stamina would discrese considerably. After that he won't ba able to evade much more.

The thing is, we don't really know it's speed. Maybe you can see it being launched. You see a flash, then lightning. And if it always shoots where you are it's predictable. Wait for the flash in the sky, then change your position. Boom, lightning missed.

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

I know that Yama has scars over his Body, but have you even seen anyone besides Sasakibe beeing able to even put a scar on him onscreen? Even tanking his own Shikai didn't inflict him incurable scars.

We didn't, but that doesn't mean, that it's impossible. There were many people who put scar on Yamaji's body, not only Choujiro, it isn't that much of a feat. If something is a feat, then it is being alive after giving scar to Almighty Yamaji!

Re: Bleach Tournament Round 2: Urahara vs Sasakibe

If the gigai double worked on Aizen, it will work on Sasakibe's lightning. He can use incantation very easily if he is believed to be dead/beaten by Sasakibe. And the POWER of his bankai is the one thing we do not know, so saying Urahara can't stand after one or a small number of hits is conjecture. Especially with the blood shield he can make.

The mechanics of Sasakibe's bankai are, IMO, very dangerous, and his reiatsu was noted by Hisagi. But if he is powerful, then the only way to explain his beating from Ichigo is that he is sloooow and has un-miraculous defense, and combined with him quite possibly being unable to move his bankai around, his reaction speed and ability to dodge is very limited. Offensively, the speed of his lightning can compensate, but defensively, he can only rely on his offense. This is very imbalanced, while Urahara, is very well rounded, he is not weak in any area, and excels in kido, strategy, and intelligence.