From an employee point of view, I would want to determine the tenor of the company. The same thing applies when you look for employees angry people do angry things, nervous people are filled with angst, bored people are dispersed. Same thing apply to companies, My best customers have been companies who had a cheerful demeanor. OTOH angry companies were trouble.

I would want to know how their sales were for the past years. Are they on an incline or a decline.

How organized are they. And how organized are their personnel regarding how are the hats divided up and who is doing what, is their foreman overwhelmed or is the shop under control, do the detailers put out clear drawings, how does the machinery look.

What niche in the market place does the company occupy what are the future prospects for that niche.

What is the reputation of the company.

What are the metrics that the employee is measured by. If they are ambiguous that is a bad sign.

To me the primary thing would be to look at the tenor of the company, which would be all of the people not just HR.

Bunch of reasons. I would say the prime reason is from a lack of training. Remember people get angry when they lose control. A lack of control comes from a lack of training.

The proof of this pudding is evident at companies who do more training. E.G. look at the videos that Paul Akers puts out. His morning meetings, videos etc. A few more examples are Mimis Cafe, TGI Fridays, I'm sure many Lean companies. And look at the antithesis of this at Home Depot.

The problem with a lack of training besides the obvious, is that the people do not know what the goal of the company is, they do not know what the policies of the company are, as someone individuates from the company they feel separate from the company, i.e. less than a full understanding, of how they fit in and what their job is. As this occurs people tend to care less about the company as they are less a part of it.

Which brings up several more things you should look at when interviewing with companies.

Considering what I know now compared to what I knew wayyyy back then I would ask:
(A) will you stay the hell out of my way and let me do the job you hired me to do ?
(B) before you promise the entire World to your customer...do you meet with you finishers and get their feedback ?
(C) do your project managers throw a dart at a dart board to determine the delivery dates ?
(D) do you realize that chemical coatings are stinky and your customer might object to the stinky factor if I spray it now and you deliver it while its still wet ?
(E) are any of your finishers drunks who don't show up to work when they need to ?
(F) do you tell your customers that their project is being finished when in fact the cabinet shop just started cutting it ?
(G) do you blame the finishers because the cabinet is to tall and to wide to fit through the doorway ?

Robert - looks like you worked about 29.5 years too long for the wrong place(s).

I haven't been an employee for 27 years, and was last hired when I was 18, but some of the things I'd want to know are:

(in no particular order)
* What is the average length of employment, and what is the current longest tenure?
* What is your disciplinary process?
* What does "Lean" mean to you?
* What is your largest asset?
* Why do customers buy your products as opposed to your competitors'?
* Do you have a safety policy? If so, how often is it reviewed?
* When was you last OSHA or Insurance inspection? Have you had any OSHA fines?
* Can I see your last three years' form 300As?
* If two employees have a disagreement, how do you handle it?
* Why do you come to work every day?
* Would you lie to a customer?
* If you had a choice between meeting a deadline and losing money, or breaking the deadline to maintain a profit, which would you choose?
* If you offer me the job, why should I choose you over Employer B?

I apprenticed at a shop in San Francisco, Fink and Schindler back in the late 1970's Absolutely no shenanigans were accepted or tolerated.Occasionally worked two jobs day/night shift
You were expected to begin work at 7:00am sharp....not show up at 7:00am.Worked at Fink until they closed shop. Same thing goes for Western Woodcraft and W&J Sloan. Companies folded yet I was present until they closed.
On a Friday...everyone used to hang out in the parking lot at Sloans and shoot the bull about week end plans..football...etc. On that particular Friday the shop Stewart announced from behind the security gate that Sloan was closing down and that that Friday would be our last day.

Only quit one job during my tenure as a Finisher and that was because the temperature in the finishing department was a nice cool 40*. Owner just couldn't get it through his head why the finishes were not behaving even though I had the rep explain it to him...directed him to Woodweb to read up on the subject...bought $2000.00 ( yes; folks that's two thousand dollars ) worth of equipment and paid for it out of my own pocket. Bought 4 HVLP spray guns...Auto Heat Lamps... Air Sanders...Porter Cable electric sanders...Fans...a Commercial Vacuum Cleaner...Paint shaker...nice filter assembly for their compressor.
I worked an average of 10 hours a day and countless weekends and never included those hours on my time card.I worked there for 2 years B4 tossing in my hat. No communication...no order...no organization whatsoever.That was my last job in 2012. Retired in 2013 and am enjoying every minute.

I have/had a passion for my trade ( thanks to Rudy, my first Foreman at Fink and Schindler) and throughout my finishing tenure I constantly went 100% above and beyond what was ever expected of an employee.

If you know of the History of shops in the San Francisco Bay Area... ( California ) you would realize just how difficult it is because of the politics to successfully run a business. Most employers were good enough to inform me a few weeks in advance that they were closing up shop.I stuck it through until the end.

Steve Holmburg had a great shop on Pier 42 in San Francisco, worked two years until the entire Pier burnt down.
Worked at a shop on the Peninsula..owner set fire to the shop and collected the Insurance $$$.

Throughout my workings at shops, I kept exacting records of what was done and how long it took to accomplish the task.
Raw wood sanding..color sample time..stain mix time..stain time..seal time, etc...I guess coming from a Military background ( not me but my Father ) it was my responsibility to be able to account for time spent and what was done during that time.

Ive had some well paying jobs and some not so well paying ones. Ive had some great employers and some not so great ones. Yeah.....I suppose some of my questions were tongue in cheek.Me bad for that.

Finishing is like being a Chef in a fine 5 star Restaurant. For the Chef to operate at 100% efficiency it takes the cooperation of each and every individual involved in the equation.

Oh, I forgot to add a few questions I would have ask a prospective employer.

(H) is the project your delivering to the finishing department, ready to finish or will we need to sand out all the swirl marks and fill all the joints and steam up all the nicks and dings and fix everything the Cabinetmakers were responsible for.
We have no problem doing any of the above, but that will set us behind your schedule and that extra time should not count as a charge to your finishing bid.

(I) Mr./Mrs owner, I took a set of plans home with me and I submitted to you last week; a list of materials we need to proceed. How come we haven't received some of the needed supplies yet ? Oh...and the spec's call for a Satin coating which I listed on my materials request sheet but I got 5 gallons of High Gloss instead.

Egads, just did a bunch of in person resume drop offs and it seems the shop has a pretty negative reputation in the industry. Hmmm... Not surprised but wondering if it means anything for my image?

Also got told by one guy i should be in sales. Never even thought about that one. Confusing times, woodworker friends!

Robert-- i think your chef analogy is a good one. Was lucky enough to get told by my instructor in the joinery school to pay good attention to your finisher-- they are the last stop and often the bottleneck and get a lot of flack. Advice worth gold-- happy to report it has served me very well.

"Egads, just did a bunch of in person resume drop offs and it seems the shop has a pretty negative reputation in the industry. Hmmm... Not surprised but wondering if it means anything for my image?"

Glad you're not surprised...

As to your image - the fact that YOU quit after, what is it - 8 months or something?, should not reflect too badly on you, especially if you (kindly, non-dissingly) bring out your reasons for leaving in the interview.

I'm wondering if they've been undercutting... Why else would all the shops in the next town be so annoyed? Curious... Don't want to pry and no one's offering. i'll see if i can nudge the next person into it lol

There are a lot of possible sources for this problem and not all of them owing to nefarious or incompetent management. Some of the problems have to do with things that are happening outside the shop. It doesn't sound like you have spent much time in sales. It can be hard sometimes to get your customer to work on your schedule or give you decisions in a timely manner or stick with a decision when they give one.

Sometimes other catastrophes happen inside your shop that could have been solved with more or better leadership by the guys on the shop floor. A lot of times the crew just waits for someone else to be in charge because that's a lot easier than assisting in management.

In any case the only way to have enough lead time to get things done in a timely fashion is to have the right amount of work. The only way to have the right amount of work is to not have enough work. If management does not over sell capacity then the guys have to go home.
You have to look at this like it's a crab fishing boat in Alaska. If you bang on the skipper's door and tell him you're getting wet and it's cold out there he's probably going to tell you to get a job at the post office, (just like you would say the same to him.) Put another way it's kind of like my cat. If he's inside he wants me open the door so he can go outside. If he's outside he stares at the door so he can come inside.

What you should have done before you retired was take all that equipment you bought and gone out on your own. The trapeze looks a lot different from the high wire than it does from the bleachers.

I understand and appreciate your feedback Cabmaker ; and the feedback from others as well. It seems as if Ive swayed away from Mel's topic, didn't realize he himself was the one looking for employment and was seeking questions of his own to ask a prospective employer. Thought it was just a general question he was asking.

I had my own shop for 8 years. Three employees. Taxes and Fees and Insurance and Workers Comp and GC's who went BK owing me plenty of money were reasons I decided to toss in the towel.
Didn't have problems in the way of scheduling or delivery or materials as I kept on top of those situations.

Was offered a position at a Cabinet shop with stock options and great pay and full benefits and the blessing of the owner to operate the department as if it was my own.

About two years into the venture the Payroll Checks began to bounce the stock options were a fraud and the IRS shut the shop down.

Sorry Mel for what appears to be a highjacking of your original posting on my part. I will bow out posting my own experience. Have you considered using a Postage Stamp as your foot in the door "salesman". A Postage Stamp applied to a large Manila Envelope is sure to catch the eye of a prospective employer. Inside the envelope, you might include a factual introduction letter and a brief history of yourself and your interests. Nice paper stock is important. Include many photos of your past work. Gloss Photo Stock works well for this. Id also get a box of Employment Applications at Staples.
Completely fill them out ( minus your SS#) and include it in your "sales brochure".

Google Cabinet Shops/ Furniture Makers in a 50 mile radius. Address as many of those " sales brochures" as you like ( the more, the merrier ) put a stamp on them and let the USPS be your initial foot in the door. Stamps are way cheaper than gas is. I might check out the prospective employers website ( if they have one ) to see what kind of work they do and if you feel its a good fit...mail those out first.

Wishing you the absolute best in you quest Mel.Now back to your regular program scheduling :-)

Robert--never believed in the concept of "thread hijack". I like meandering topics. So carry on should you wish :)

Cabmaker-- not sure it applies to me, nor why you believe it does? Feel free to point it out if I missed something though, I'm very teachable. Nicely would be more appreciated ;)

I used to run live event infrastructure installation for most of the last ten years. Have had more than my share of management for my age.

Showing up in random town, with a truck full of varying gear, and managing different staff every single time--every day was a training day. Ever taught 12 strangers how to build a 70 m steel dome in 5 hours when it's the first time you do it yourself? There is something to be said for that.

I can't say it's the same as running a cabinet shop, but I can say that I haven't pointed the "incompetence finger" to anyone at the shop, because I do know better. I've tried a problem-solving approach every step of the way with much tenacity and patience.

Ever had the new kid show up, without being asked, with 3 different waste management options? Find uses for bent wood? Sort your mezzanine when the power is out and everyone else is sweeping the same spot for 2 hours? Start solo learning how to tune machines because nobody does it? Make jigs for increased safety on sketchy cuts? Sort out incoming/outgoing product and carts for the paint shop because it's the bottle neck and the painter needs to just keep spraying? Determine non-value steps to a process that can be eliminated to save time? To name a few... I'm kinda not so bad.

Get what you are saying--just not sure I deserve the pointed finger? Not really sitting in the bleachers, don't think. Though I've built my share of bleachers in my day...

BTW Dave----did find out that the source of annoyance from others is undercutting.

ah cabmaker, we posted at the same time. Thanks for the harshness removal :)

I get your sentiment tho--who hasn't heard a million "management is stupid!!" accusations from people who have no idea that as management, you are often choosing between non-ideal scenarios and not simply too stupid to find the right way to do things.

As for the search--been doing in person drop offs for the last two days and having an absolute ball doing it. Just came back from the most immaculate shop I've ever seen in person.... I may have swooned a bit lol.

Good idea on bringing photography... and a website is an absolutely great idea.

I, for one, hope somebody here offers Mel a job and she stays in the woodworking industry and continues to opine on this forum. She is truly a breath of fresh air. If it wasn't for her creative ideas (and metric spelling) we would be stuck with only that Gilbert guy and gasbag Schultz.

Have you ever noticed that you never see those two in the same room at the same time??

Lmao-- I've figured it out!! Every single person here is Tim. Except for me. I'm stuck in the woodworking Matrix!! Get me some cool sunglasses and a long black jacket. With a handplane or something to keep it woodwork-y :)

All I know is that I really like it. Finding something I'm this into has taken a long time.

Events were good because the pace matched mine and the people were entertaining. Scaffolding was fun because the energy levels required matched mine but you can't do that physical a job outdoors forever. Corporate was fun because having a brain child and watching it unfold in a big machine is fun, but I can't sit still that long.

Woodworking has worked best so far, for the simple fact that it's a little bit of everything. A bit of physical, a bit of fast pace, machines, drawing, math, systems, esthetics and endless possibilities.

That said I don't know if there is something out there that would be even better, that's simply not on my radar. All I know is that if I'm still this interested after a year, it's really good. I like states of intense momentum. Not too good at anything in between.

Went for an afterwork beer with a cabinet shop owner that thinks I belong in sales. Had a long chat, supposed to chat again next week. Dunno. Exploring I guess!

Right now the US is recovering from huge overinvestment in housing. And is currently hugely overinvesting in commercial construction, mostly in healthcare because of low interest rates.

That being said the US will grow in population. But it is questionable if that growth will support what we now know as custom cabinets. No matter what demographics drive construction but no matter what jobs are what create a demand for houses. But the propensity for owning a house is changing. And the federal reserve has seen to it that this country is not producing real jobs that can buy houses for the past 15 years.

IMO and many expert's the western world is going to go through a decline for the next 15 yr or so. Canada will fare better than the US, because of better budgeting.

The reason for this decline will be driven by demographics and US's poor finance. Mainly Medicare and the fact that the average person will collect 7x what they paid in. This and the US will likely lose the reserve currency status.

Whatever you do you don't want to have debt in 10 or 15 years. The good news is that there will be opportunity when things tank to buy at the bottom. Also the world will start supporting a middle class which will create huge demand for housing, but probably not in the US like it has been in the past.

You are probably right. When we were gypsying around on our boat and taking contract work, the hubby took some gigs programing lighting for events. Got poached after a few months from a big company to do programing for lighting systems in buildings/institutions. 2 years later, just got promoted to business development... at 33 years old.

That said, I don't know if it's as simple as picking the most lucrative industry/position and just doing it, if it doesn't fit. Isn't that how people end up overweight, on antidepressants, with massive booze bills?

Perhaps it's the type of advice one gives to their kids when they look back at their own career and think they should have made more money in life.... That or it's bang on and I'm beside the point :)

btw--one of my earlier jobs was converting a multidoctor medical clinic from paper to electronic files. I'm pretty disenchanted with the medical industry...

Having people consume more of a govt medical system then they put in sometimes result in a very getto medical system. Plus having someone else's pain be your wallet padder leads to some pretty filthy behavior it seems!

I guess I'm talking to myself. I'm not advising, I'm indicating what I have read in pursuit of the answer to WTF happened 6 years ago. It helps to have enough information to make a decision. I like this guys take on the subject.

Recently read Fire Your Boss by Levine and Pollan, who says the same thing as the video. But I think the nuance is that people get themselves into jobs because it's in a field they are passionate about, but end up hating the actual job.

Recently saw an old friend that use to scaffold for us. He is a fine arts degree, and now works in the film industry faux finishing. He gets paid all day to use his fine arts degree, handsomely at that. Well known and respected in his field.

Dream, right? He's miserable. Was way happier scaffolding for low wages with us. Asked him what sucks, after a bit of musings, figured out the humans ruin the fun job.

I think about this stuff a lot. The name of my game is finding something that lets me expend energy--I have way too much of it. If I can do that, I find days are good. And that's all I want, days that are good.

We let go of money years ago and since then it keeps falling on our laps. Cars, boats, lump sums, machines, you name it.

I think lots of business owners who went through the recession find themselves trying to see what they should have done different, when really, the crisis was way bigger then them. Had anyone done the same thing at a different time, perhaps the questioning wouldn't be so strong?

Good point about the people. Many in the industry are a-holes, many are salt of the earth. I suppose people skills come in handy no matter what you do for a living.

In regards to that I think creating a game of it is where it is at. There used to be a book called the "game of work". Which makes the point of turning work into a game, i.e. you need goals, barriers, production, and victory. If those things are removed it is miserable.

I like that view. And for some crazy reason the trades game is so much more fun to play then the corporate game to me.

Can't tell you how boring I found my corporate coworkers! The word "bland" comes to mind... Office Johnny sits in front of a screen all day, has his quinoa salad for lunch while discussing the last trail he hiked with his family with Office Jane who reciprocates with her last camping trip story of grilling smores.... "Oh yum, yum! Smores!" Yawnnnnnnnnn!!

Lets talk about the stupidest thing you ever saw someone do with a table saw instead :)

I used to be a chef in a previous life. Now I am transitioning out of 20 years as a finisher for a lot of the same reasons as Robert.

Whenever I would finish an interview I would ask to see the shop. I use the same parameters that I use when dining out at a new restaurant. In that instance, i always check the bathroom first. How the bathroom is maintained is a direct reflection of the owner/chef.

In a shop situation, I used to look at the facilities and the worker's demeanor. I've seen finish areas that are completely bombed out. .... "Come on in - enjoy! ...Pass"

If you're potential co - workers divert their eyes, etc. , you get a pretty good idea what's going on. If on the outside chance someone takes the initiative to shake your hand and introduce themselves I think that's a good sign.

Shows that their invested in the organization and treat it like their own.

Rare, but it does happen.

I have been following your posts Mel , some are pretty esoteric but most are well thought out and articulate. Perhaps sales is were your fortunes lie.

Haha thanks Tiptop--I recognize that I am a bit of a weirdo... too much academia to ever be normal again :) It's easier in person; when you get too esoteric you see the other person's eyebrow start to raise and then you know you gotta say something normal fast ;)

I have been doing shop tours for the last two days--random drop by resume and if the conversation goes well get the tour. All sorts out there!

Worked in an italian kitchen in Old Quebec ages ago, one of my first jobs. 40 ounce beers on the prep counter and hot-kniving on the burners were random fair. Were they ever busy tho!

I got a kick out of your contention that interviews should take 45 minutes max. It's going to take a month for everybody to mutually decide whether the hire is a good fit and three months to develop conviction about it.

I depends on the position you are hiring for. When I was a fisherman on a troller boat in California all you had to do was show up wearing a pair of rubber boots and say "I can stick bait and I don't get sick". For a position like Mel is looking for it's probably a three or four stage interview.

You see a lot of impatience in our industry. People are perfectly content to spend 300 man hours to fabricate a kitchen but start to get restless if you want to discuss strategy for 30 minutes. There's probably 60 hours of labor savings available from that 30 minute group hug but we all seem to want to improve our comprehension with the least amount of effort possible.

@JWS. I see no reference to the type of position that Mel was applying for. Unless you're talking about a major manufacturing corporation, (fewer and fewer) and a major position (VP of sales, comptroller, director of HR, production manager) I don't see multiple rounds of interviews for the size shops this site serves.

Receive resumes, review and vet resumes, cattle call who you want to see, cull the herd, call back for second, final decision. Possibly a third if you actually have two strong candidates.

I stand by my thoughts that 2 hours in any interview is too long. Someone's pandering or someone's bragging.

My last shop had an owner that would call an impromptu meeting on a Friday at 4:30. No agenda, 45 minutes - hour of rambling, stopping at will to take calls on his cell while we sat awkwardly for 5 - 15 minutes. Finish it up 1.5 to two hours later and everyone would walk out of the meeting pissed because there was never a point made.

Four of the seven people in the last meeting I attended a few months back have all moved on, myself included. Time is time, if you don't value mine, don't expect the same.

@tiptop - You say you don't know what type of position was being applied for, and yet you can "stand by" your assertion that 45 minutes is all that's needed for an interview?

Unless you were there I don't see your critique holding any water. You're free to run your business how you want to, but to judge others' - especially without having all the facts - based on your proclivities, is rather harsh.

Was looking at an inside sales position that does not yet exist. This was actually the third time I went to see the guy--we'd talk a bit, I'd do some homework, come back.

Yesterday was a full exploration of his business. From production to sales to management. Me asking a whole lot of questions. Exploring markets. Discussing his growth potential with his current assets.

I don't know about this industry, but in my previous industries it was not uncommon. But then lots of aspects of woodworking seem different to me then other industries. Still learning lots and feel like there is still much more to learn. Which is a good thing.

Mel...I do apologize for referencing ya as Male instead of Female. Did notice you have many thoughtful postings yet Ive failed to read through each of them to acknowledge my mistake. Somehow I feel as if you have forgiven me for my mortal sin but for the sake of them who haven't I shall make a Maya culpa Maya culpa on their behalf.

Hey Robert! Not a worry in the world, it truely does not matter. He/she all good, as long as no one uses "it" ;)

Tiptop-- it is indeed a moving on to next scenario. If I'm educated, experienced, friendly and from his point of view good looking, why not capitalize on that instead of blowing it for a potential evening of fun? Have the feeling it reflects bigger things.

Have received an apology and had a good conversation about that sort of behavior-- perhaps the next person will have an easier go.

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