Posted
by
Zonk
on Monday April 11, 2005 @12:36AM
from the whirrr-stomp-whirrr-stomp dept.

FalconZero writes "For those of you with superhuman aspirations, your dream may be a step closer; New Scientist (recently) and the Japan Times (last year) covered Yoshiyuki Sankai's work at
the University of Tsukuba in Japan developing powered exoskeletons
with commercial versions expected soon costing between $14,000 and $19,000
(£7,500-£10,000). Other work with exoskeletons previously covered
here(1),
here(2) and
here(3)."

What happens when these things go berserk and won't stop? Or they tear off your legs? And how would having stronger lower limbs help you carry heavier loads? You'd still fuck up your back, hips, spine without mechanical assistance there, too.

That being said, I have the idle money for one of these units at the mentioned price, if it is cool enough.

The load is attached to a frame at the top of the legs, so it adds no weight to the user. They can't tear off your legs because they have the same range of motion as your legs. And it can't "go berserk" because its only control system is the human wearing it. It basically allows a person to carry a heavy load for the same distance they would be able to cover with no load.

My question is this. Why can't we combine two of these with one of them being contolled by the other? With the proper video link between the two a person should be able to remotely controll the other device. This would mean that the device could go to places human could not survive or too dangerous. I think that this could lead to huge factories here in the United States with the vast majority of the workers being in China or India. They will be able to work from their homes.

So I was trying to find one *good* Exoman site, and I couldn't find any. (It was a short-lived 1977 TV series about a paralyzed scientist who created his own exo-suit in which he would fight crime yada yada yada).

But I do remember the concept. It was a cautionary tale for any director of an Iron Man movie: the only way to show facial expressions of Exoman was to pretend the camera was inside the helmet.

But the suiting up process was fasinating. He had a clamshell tanning-bed-like machine that he'd swing himself into, and it'd join the two halves, anterior and posterior, sealing him inside. It was a thought provoking procedure for an armor happy ki

How would that work, anyway? You can't move if you're not watching commercials?

For that matter, is that even possible? I don't think that scientists have figured out how to tap the energy potential of commercials to the point where they actually generate energy of any kind. All scientists doing that kind of work end up with is the inability to be scientists any longer due to brain atrophy from watching too many commercials.

How about organically powered enhanced endoskeletons? Might be a bit more practical.

I'm pretty sure that only reason why they're even devising these things is because of Japan's robot anime. You know, some guy jumps into a huge robot and control it through sensors all over his body.

There is some guy here in Japan who is that crazy about the anime that developed his own exo-skeleton to move his toy Mazinga robot around. They had him on TV wearing his Mazinga get up and fighting other geek's toy robots on one of the TV shows here. Apparently there are a lot of these robot hobbyists as well as uni students building these things.

Mazinga, BTW, is a really old anime, but not far removed from the likes of say Gundam, Voltron and a billion and one other ripoffs.

Oh come on. The only reason why these guys are interested in building these things is because the idea of a robot battle suit captures their imagination.

Incidently, as you say, such an exo-skeleton would be beneficial to the elderly as a useful side benefit. However believe me, a lot of the geeks here working on these things weren't inspired to do so by the idea of a robo-grandparent.

Once they're finished building super mega mega man, then they might get around to building the mecha grandparent frame.;)

I don't dispute your point, but Mazinga was not the first. There had been Tetsujin 28 gou (Iron Man model 28) [tetsujin28.jp] (heh, they made a remake), Giant Robo (do you own google) a.k.a Johnny Sacco (why?) before Mazinga Z to name a few that I remember.

I think Tetsujin was the oldest of the fighting robot genre. But obviously the author was inspired by Atom (a.k.a Astroboy), a work of his master. Oh, when I think about it, both Tetsujin and Giant Robo were created by the same author. They were not exoskeleton, but

Spoken like a true fan. Having a robot, giant or otherwise, is hardly an original plot device, so it's unfair to over-generalize and insult every other anime out there that has ever used a robot. Not only that, just because you use a giant robot doesn't mean your story's any good.

Mazinger Z [mazinworld.com] was released in America under the name of Tranzor Z [absoluteanime.com], so I'm sure quite a few people here know of it.

As for the Japanese, they like robots and therefore feature it in their anime, not the other way around. It's an i

This is actually a load of claptrap. Japanese robotic programs are the result of technology foresight exercise in 1970, when this project run by the Japanese Ministry of Science showed the prospects of scientific and technological progress in 1970-2000. As a result Japan started several ambitious R&D programs, to develop AI, advance robotics and create fifth generation computers.

Because of that Japan is one of the leaders in robotics, not because Japanese people liked Gundam and other mecha anime.

An exoskeleton would be potentially useful for urban combat (punching through doors, knowck down walls, etc.), but probably less than you might think. Short of just walking through wall, an exoskeleton would probably be difficult to maneuver in dense environments, and those using early models would be at a lot greater risk of accidental immobilization (i.e., a sitting duck) and other potentially fatal equipment failures than someone in, say, a tank.

Alas, for Robert A. Heinlein's vision of Powersuits in Starship Troopers, exoskeletons, like those giant Japanese Mechs, are very cool in fiction, but probably not terribly useful in reality compared to more mundane alternatives.

except you could carry much heavier (i.e. more powerful) weapons and a lot more (and bigger) ammo.

The most obvious weapon I can think of would be a.50 caliber heavy machine gun. Currently it takes several men to carry one(or else a vehicle like a Humvee), a suit might allow one man to carry and use a weapon capable of taking out light armored vehicles. You could also add some heavy body armor- in short, create a mobile machine gun nest.
It's going to have its limitations, but any technology- aircraft,

If we're going to go through all the trouble of having machine guns, heavy armor, and articulated leg mechanisms, might as well just throw in a grenade launcher an start building these [galacticem...tabank.com], then.

The most obvious weapon I can think of would be a.50 caliber heavy machine gun.

I don't think that there would be a real advantage in bigger guns, but rather having the capacity to carry more supplies, and communications gear. Combat isn't won or lost by having bigger guns, it is won by having better information and supply capabilities.

Anything that is bi-pedal is not eneregy efficient. It is more difficult to conserve momentum with it. Without incredible specialization it would also be extremely difficult to obtain any sort of precision of movement or manipulation. Perhaps the biggest problem: balance. The more control given to the "pilot" the less they could regulate balance and weight transfer in the machine. These things, I am sure work well for the disabled and old people, but they aren't going to be used by technological su

I think balance is starting become a solved problem. Look at the Segway for starters... plus previous Slashdot articles have linked to some very impressive videos of (small) robots doing handstands, ballet, etc. So it appears that balance is just a matter of having a fast enough computer running a clever enough feedback algorithm.

I think a more difficult problem will be energy: how does your exoskeleton carry enough fuel/energy to be useful without adding too much weight or compromising the user's safety?

You can talk about wheels all you want, but all you'd be doing is turning a soldier into a Dalek. They have cool laser beams but they're totally defeated by stairs.

The boys over at NASA keep pounding their brains trying to figure out the most efficient, most manueverable designs for roving around Mars. At the end of the day, what they'd really like is something that could walk like a human (or that cool bot from "Red Planet").

Yes it is true that in the past, bi-pedal walkers were less energy efficient. But the new ones have enhanced algorithyms that are designed to conserve momentum. The most modern ones no longer do the "step by step" movement, but instead "flow", absorbing energy and storing it as needed.

Will they match wheeled travel on roads? (Cars) No. But they will beat off road Tracked vehicles (tanks).

Take a squad of 25 men, and put them in suits (albiet suits somewhat more advanced than these). Like Heinlein's, to a large degree. Making them nuclear powered might be practical, to some degree, if they were to give a significant edge in battle.

If the suits were 8' fall or so and had thick (ie, tank-level reactive) body armor, the squad of 25 could very likely out-maneuver most tank/armor batallions of the world, and most certainly out-gun all but the most intense infantry. They'd be able to withstand multiple RPG-type hits (possibly, provided the soldier isn't injured due to percussion), and would be harder to hit than a vehicle by far. With the assistance of advanced machinery and electronics, they'd likely be able to do a better, faster job sniping than most snipers, and be able to carry much larger guns than an unarmored soldier - though probably not quite as big as a vehicle-mounted weapon.

Think of them as something between a soldier on foot with a troop rifle (M16 or BAR) and a HV with a 100mm cannon. Maybe they'd carry a 30mm cannon with a couple thousand rounds, a decent sniper rifle, and a 20mm grenade launcher with plenty of ammo for it - significantly more power than even a squad could dish out, but not as much as an armored vehicle.

I don't imagine such suits being used to replace, say, foot infantry or even advanced groups like 1st Recon USMC or Navy SEAL. I think they'd largely be used in support capacity for those squads, or for the troops with less prowess. They'd likely get carted around on a transport truck, just like any other piece of specialized machinery - only deployed when needed (such as, say, for guard duty).

I obviously don't think such things are near to implimentation or deployment, but provided things don't tank in the near future, I suspect something similar - or at least a step in that direction - will be coming to the US Armed Forces within a while.

I'll go a load less sci fi than the parent, and try too put this in prespective:

Why isn't every Marine in Iraq, etc not wrapped in 6 inches of Kevlar from head to toe? Because Kevlar is HEAVY. The real advantage of a Mech type suit is that you can make the average Soldier harder to kill. You don't need to make it superhuman strong, and able to punch through walls, just make it able to handle a normal range of motion / speed, and then wrap enough Kevlar on it to make a person immune to small arms fire.

The loss of mobility would make it not worth using. Once a firefight starts, its all about cover and concealment... not armor. Kevlar helmets aren't meant to stop a bullet, they're meant to deflect a stray one. The robot would not be able to stop multiple rpg hits and it'd be more likely to take a hit because you'd be unable to get into the prone position.

Frankly I'd rather be prone behind some cover then standing up with thick armor.

The bigger you make something the easier a target it is. $2000 RPGs are 100% capable of neutralizing $10,000,000 dollar apache attack helicopters. This is why they aren't using them so much anymore in Iraq.

What would be FAR more useful are carbon nano-tube suits that you could outfit every soldier with. They would be LIGHT and strong. They would allow our guys to go in with numbers and engage a guerilla enemy on their terms.

On the armor front tanks need to become lighter and faster. The ability to ra

I wonder, though, how those mechs would do against, say, comparatively armored humvees with a 2-man crew each? Probably not too well, particularly if the MVs have mark19s and.50 cal evenly distributed from HV to HV (ie, 5 with m-19 and 5 with.50 cal or whatever). (Or is that mk-17?)

The HVs would be faster and likely have better firepower. Unless, of course, the mechs had a high amount of accuracy machinery built in instead of relying on the soldier's aim.

I posted this before, and now we get this story posted where it actually fits the best. Got to get a better crystal ball. If you've seen this before, move along. Data posted here for sake of completeness....

-I have invented this new type of an exoskeleton. No longer will I have to feel like prisoners of the planet with gravity as a jailer. Now all I need is a test-subject.

-Pick me, pick me!

-Great! The exoskeleton will be attached to your front like so, and I will be attached to the exoskeleton by my back like this. These belts with sharp sharp needles will be attached to the five extremeties of your body.

Neat as this stuff is, I doubt it will really help the majority of mobility impaired like my father. My father suffered from severe arthritis that left his knees and hips unable to bear his weight, and of course flexing them was excruciating, assisted or not.

A lot of wear an tear is from load bearing, and perhaps these powered suite address this to a degree, but I suspect in many cases they would exacerbate the problem for arthritis sufferers by adding to the weight load on joints, even while enabling superhuman lifting capabilities.

Even if they address the load issue on joints, it is overkill from what is really needed by tens of millions. I have not seen such a thing, but does anyone know of some kind of lightweight synchronized brace system? Something that would distribute the body's load to the hips directly and lock when the joints aren't moving? I have seen leg braces before, but not articulated ones that auto-lock. One thing that my father believed contributed to the breakdown of his joints were the long periods he spent standing doing his job as a chef. Again, a locking brace system would seem the answer for people that need to be on their feet long periods, but may have the beginnings of joint break down.

1) You don't wear the exoskeleton, rather you rid one. Thus your objection about load bearing is totally misguided.2) Guess what, this heavy exoskeleton is a stop on the way to build "lightweight synchronized brace system". You managed to completely misunderstand the technical issues.

This seems a lot more appropriate for applications in construction than in the military or in medicine.

Digging/moving/lifting/mixing/carrying machines are generally designed to do jobs that humans can do, but on a larger scale and with more power. It seems to me that a person in a powered exoskeleton could perform such tasks pretty well, given the right tools or attachments.

I remember a Dean Ing story about an exoskeleton developed for logging... one of the (many) environmental issues with logging is the damage done by constructing logging roads. A walk-in walk-out machine could reduce this damage, and is also a tool for selective rather than clear-cut harvesting.

This hack will have to do until I get mental powers. Robotic muscles, hell yeah, in places letting yhou do things you couldn't before. I bet this thing could blow glass better than I could after while.

What I'm really wondering about is what kind of regulations there will be when the average joe can buy one. If they are within that price range, thats like a low end new car, and I know more than one geek who would be willing to drop that much on such a fine piece of equipment.

But you know they're going to regulate it to death with things like requiring a license, etc. I'm fine with that, but I really do hope they let this be as commercial as other modes of transportation and disability assistance.

I can't wait for the import tuners to get their hands on this and make it look GOOD. Although it would probably have 5 tv screens, 900W stereo, and neon lighting all over...

I now seed a low rider version with extendable legs. Guys standing around on street corners, "dancing" by going up 5 ft, then back down 5ft, with the entire carrying capacity of the mech being used to carry HUGE speakers, blasting out music.

I always thought that if you were a billionaire, like Bill Gates, a good use for your money would be to develop a suit of armor to duplicate that of Iron Man, as closely as possible. I mean, a lot of it is feasible, with ten figures to back R&D. What else are you going to do with your friggin' money? Cure cancer? World hunger?

It'd be nice to have a special prize for every advancement that someone wants, but I don't think this needs it. The money factor of the X-Prize isn't even what made Spaceship One happen. All the it added was the competition and a sense of urgency, as it needed to be done by a specific date. The thing about that X-Prize is that it and Ansari, the sponsors of the prize, will be mentioned in textbooks forever, just like the Orteig Prize. As you said yourself, mecha aren't "sexy" enough to be worthy of someone

You use your hands, too, when you climb one, so that it's really a four legged pursuit.

If you don't use your hands, it's easy to fall off unless the angle is shallow enough that you can balance normally. If you can easily fall, it's not navigable. If you can balance normally, then you can do the same with wheels.

i think the military application for exoskeletons is to help soldiers carry more supplies while marching extended distances. not fighting. marching. and i'm pretty sure we didn't have the tech for load-bearing exoskeletons back in WWII...

Modern soldiers don't march extended distances. They get ONTO trucks (these days Armored personnell carriers) they get to their patrol area and then they patrol. When returning to base they get back ON their APCs.

One of the greatest advances in the Civil War was powered troop delivery via train. The North developed an effective "RAIL SUPREMACY" that allowed them to tire down the South.

We had the technology to build them back then??? Wow, that's news to me. The Japanese must seriously be SO behind in terms of technology that they are still building things from the 1950s.

On another note, I'm beginning to fear the impending rise of Japan's technological skills. With their recent attempt to amend their constitution to allow for a standing army along with their recent changes to their textbooks that make their actions during WW2 seem honorable instead of atrocious. I mean, sure there are some good uses for the new exoskeleton technology. But wouldn't the BEST way to help disabled people would be to research stem cells and how to regenerate nerves and muscles??? This exoskeleton that makes you twice as strong and straped to a computer which allows wireless hook up sure does make me think more of war than it does of helping old ladies. But hey, that's just me, I'm paranoid.

The impending rise? Where have you been for the last few decades? As a country their technological skills and drive have been cutting edge for a long time now.

With their recent attempt to amend their constitution to allow for a standing army

If my country was that close the North Korea and China I'd really want it to have a standing army too. I guess they could rely on the Americans for ever, but they have a lot of other commitments and what if you don't always agree with them?

changes to their textbooks that make their actions during WW2 seem honorable instead of atrocious

Now that's a massive generalisation, assuming you are talking about the same thing as the Chinese have been protesting about. A textbook, not all, done by a company not the government referred to the rape of Nanking as an "incident". Now that isn't good, it was a massacre and a war crime, but you may be generalising just a bit from it.

But wouldn't the BEST way to help disabled people would be to research stem cells and how to regenerate nerves and muscles

It would be another way. We don't know it would be the best way until we tried both. Even then, best how? Cost? How quickly it is available? Quality of life for sufferers? Percentage of sufferers it works for?

It's pretty rare with medical conditions that one treatment works for everyone. Researching multiple ways to deal with it is generally a good thing, that saying about all you eggs in one basket.

Yes, exos could have military applications, (a lot of tech can, if it can it usually gets used) the US army has already said it is interested, and researching. Given their military budget they would almost certainly be the first to use such technology if it becomes practical.

Japan is kinda stuck in these pay for defense agreements with the US. But we're learning that the larger cost of war for democracies isn't monetary, it's political. How many boys come home in bodybags.

We NEED a strong Japan to act as an active bulwark against the likes of N Korea and Japan.

China as a communist nation was ineffective and laughable. All communist societies eventually collapse from their own internal inefficiencies (Reagan nearly pushed a sick Giant over after it had been pummelled over

An exoskeleton isn't a mecha, and doesn't have to be nearly that big. From a military point of view everything has limitations. Tanks are great in open country, but not so good in built up areas. If exoskeletons have a militray application it would more likely be urban areas and rough terrain where their greater mobility would be an asset.

Funny that we barely have the technology to build them now but could build them in WWII.