thanks for posting the link, that was interesting. I don't believe that she had an affair with Fersen, attraction may be, but I don't believe it went beyond that. I think that she was dedicated to Louis XVI. While i do find the possibility that the Dauphin escaped the revolution interesting, I don't believe that he did. If he was taken out of the prison, then who was the child in the prison? I believe that it was Marie-Antoinette's son.

thanks for posting the link, that was interesting. I don't believe that she had an affair with Fersen, attraction may be, but I don't believe it went beyond that. I think that she was dedicated to Louis XVI. While i do find the possibility that the Dauphin escaped the revolution interesting, I don't believe that he did. If he was taken out of the prison, then who was the child in the prison? I believe that it was Marie-Antoinette's son.

Furthermore, there is no indication that Fersen did anything to save the little king after Marie Antoinette's death. And we have all his writings for this period. On the contrary, poor Fersen stated Louis XVII's death in his diary.

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:17 pm

Pimprenelle

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 amPosts: 2040

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Jon A. wrote:

the question is ..................... where are the facts? Their kept in the various government offices in France, Sweden, Canada and the USA. Certain records were kept in the juristictions of the Churches. I have a CD or two worth on my computer and maybe 15 volumes by various authors on the subject, I hold subscriptions at Ancestry.com, belong to several genealogical societys and have access to an unlimited suply of facts. The facts that led me to the conclusion are enough to fill a really big volume, much more than I can write in an email. If you could narrow it down to a question concerning an event then perhaps I can answer that.

So the estate/mannor/seigneurial belonged to the Tonnoncour Family at Point du Lac. The Tonnoncour family, as I understand it for financial reasons sold out the estate to Nicholas Montour. After interviewing members of the Montour family I found they refered to Montour as an agent of the King and that Montour didn't live in the Mannor, Martel did.................. there is one fact.

Another Fact ............... the grave of Martel was destroyed a few years ago by vandals, before it was destroyed it was much like the graves of the French Nobles in the North of Paris. Full size statues of Angles etc. On the main stone it was inscribed that "He was a friend of the people" In common terms of the day "The friend of the people was the King"

another fact ................................ Martels widow, at the time of her next marrage proclaimed to the Priest that she was the widow of Joceph Francois Choiseul, dit Martel.

in the genealogy I did of the Choiseul family ther are no children of suitable age to be Joseph Francois Choiseul, dit Martel. The Choiseuls are a Noble Family of Royal Blood

One of the Choiseul men was an officer in the Kings Guard and it is known that he participated in at least one attempt to save the royal family. The flight to Varennes

another fact ................ Martel is a dit name for that one I would suggest you read"The Military Roots of dit names by Dr. Luc LePin.

so are you comitted enough to become a scholar on the subject? There are many, many more facts ........ volums of them. How much do you want to study? How badly do you want to know? This isn't like giving someone a recipe for Pâté Chinois.

Ps my spelling is not good because I think sometimes in a couple of languages, especialy when I am tired.

Thanks.

Jon A.

You take two different point for granted :1. Count Fersen fathered Louis Charles2. Lous Charles did not die in 1795, he escaped from the temple tower.

I cannot see any information prooving those affirmations in your post. Or maybe I got it wrong...

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:24 pm

Therese

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pmPosts: 2266

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Pimprenelle is absolutely correct; there is no evidence that Count Fersen tried to save the Dauphin. There were others that did try to save him, and many rumors about what happened, but Fersen was not directly involved.

_________________I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:39 pm

Anouk

Royalty

Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:45 pmPosts: 944Location: Hungary

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Yes; and Jon - just to preclude your protest- please, don't doubt what he wrote in his diary. In those times, in general, people were honest in thier scripts (okay, except for our dear comtesse de la Motte ) Especially Fersen was straight, who doubled up his life only with his diary and his sister, Sophie.

First fact of today ..................... I haven't written a novel, to the contrary, I've studied the Genealogy of the so called Choiseul, dit Martel family. To achieve this I have studied mostly records of the churches. In those days a priest entered most events of significance to the church in the priest book with varying degrees of accuracy. Events that were attended were often signed by the guest or sometimes the priest might make a comment like Sarah Smith and John Jones witnessed but could not sign. The priest also wrote comments in the margin that they considered significant. By studying these entries on can perceive the guest list to any given event ............ birth, death, marriage, etc. This also allows one to develop a sense of the naming patterns within the family and for the longest time the naming patterns made no sense until I became aware the names were the same except for the language they were written in.

For instance, take Fersen ................... in Swedish he was Jon, in French, Jean ............. in English John or the Anglicizing or Nordic version of Jon ........... Hans. Axel was his middle name. He did spend a lot of time in North America and made many contacts there. He was a founding member of the Society of Cincinnatis". My line of the family had no story that said we were royal ................ the cover story was they were rich French Jews. That was a bucket that upon examination held no water? In my pursuit of understanding who they were I read many thousands of entries into priest books.................... interviewed many newly met family members with a similar story .......... "were descendent of Charles and it took me even more years to figure out who Charles was, wrap my mind around it and believe it.

If you were to study the Canadian version of the history of the War of 1812 you would find it tough to believe that the American version of the history is talking about the same war. It is easy to fake history and it is commonly done and much of our history is fable, money making fable, but fable none the less and people flock to believe it. History is written by the winner. On occasion an archeologist will come along and sift through the information and come up with a plausible reality. My reality is that I have composed a genealogy of the family, not a historical novel. Anyone up for reading old Swedish, French, English or Latin writing? One side note is that the family of Charles inter-marries with a prominent family from the Ottoman Empire and thing really get confusing because the guy from the Ottoman Empire kept a harem. I am not sure by any stretch of the process that genealogical events would suffice as proof for the seeker of modern day affidavits.

Enough for now, work comes early in the morning.

Jon A.

Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:01 am

jadean

Duc/Duchesse

Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:21 pmPosts: 154Location: Canada

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I wonder what Louis XVI thought about the rumours surrounding Marie-Antoinette and Fersen. Has anyone read anything where the King had mentioned the rumours. I am reading The Queen of France now, I just read that the King was out riding when an Usher rushed to give him a letter that was for his eyes only, after reading it the King became upset as the letter contains accusations about the Queen and Fersen. I was just wondering if may be the King had his doubts. I like to think that he didn't. Anyone else have anythoughts on this?

Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:15 pm

Therese

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pmPosts: 2266

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

jadean wrote:

I wonder what Louis XVI thought about the rumours surrounding Marie-Antoinette and Fersen. Has anyone read anything where the King had mentioned the rumours. I am reading The Queen of France now, I just read that the King was out riding when an Usher rushed to give him a letter that was for his eyes only, after reading it the King became upset as the letter contains accusations about the Queen and Fersen. I was just wondering if may be the King had his doubts. I like to think that he didn't. Anyone else have anythoughts on this?

I agree with you, I don't think he had any doubts. All anyone has to do is read the way he praised Antoinette in his last will and testament to know what he thought of her.

I have read other authors say that the king wept at the letter because it contained information about a political reversal that he knew would have dire consequences for the monarchy and marked the beginning of the end. The letter probably had nothing to do with the queen and Fersen.

_________________I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.

Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:44 pm

Hans Axel

Duc/Duchesse

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:12 pmPosts: 219Location: Sweden

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Jon A. wrote:

For instance, take Fersen ................... in Swedish he was Jon, in French, Jean ............. in English John or the Anglicizing or Nordic version of Jon ........... Hans.

Hans is a version of the name Johan - but if your name is Hans it is not Johan. Johan comes from the biblical name John, which in Swedish is Johannes. Jon is also a common Swedish name (as is Johan, Johannes, John and Hans) and it comes from John aswell. But Hans will always be Hans.

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Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:51 pm

Jon A.

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Many years ago when I was a boy I wanted to know why I had such a funny name .......... one the kids made fun of and was told that the mother of my father insisted on it. That never made any sense to me because she was French-Canadian. I was sure it came from my mothers family who were from Fredrikshald and Vaasa. All of the names appeared here except Jon. I tracked down fourth cousins in Fredrikshald and they confirmed ............. no Jon <Yon or Yonnie>. I listened to my father, finally and looked at my Great Grandfather, the man I know as John Henry Martel. His birth certificate calls him baby boy Martel and was recorded no where near where family legend claimed it was. I searched family records and in the search it occurred to me that his parents, Honorie or Henri and Eleanora or Lenora were English language illiterate so whatever they did in English was sketchy at best. They never married and in some records she was referred to an Mendes, Mendesse or Mendurs. Lenora had a French mother and a Turkish father probably born in Tripoli. In these US census John Henry was called Charlie Martel and I know from family lore that John Henry's nic-name was after the father of his father. So the father of his father was Joseph Francois Choiseul, dit Martel and his real name was Charles. That's when I went looking for Charles and found Fersen. When I looked at the Fersen family tree I found Jon. What is the name Jon with two dots over the o?

I guess the point I am making is that I have seen many bad attempts to anglicize names from non English speakers communicating with Anglo record keepers. Somewhere one needs to choose what they believe correct. I do know for certain that my Great grandfather did not go through life known as Baby Boy Martel.

Thanks.

Jon A.

Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:51 pm

Ludy

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 amPosts: 653Location: Paris

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Therese wrote:

jadean wrote:

I wonder what Louis XVI thought about the rumours surrounding Marie-Antoinette and Fersen. Has anyone read anything where the King had mentioned the rumours. I am reading The Queen of France now, I just read that the King was out riding when an Usher rushed to give him a letter that was for his eyes only, after reading it the King became upset as the letter contains accusations about the Queen and Fersen. I was just wondering if may be the King had his doubts. I like to think that he didn't. Anyone else have anythoughts on this?

I agree with you, I don't think he had any doubts. All anyone has to do is read the way he praised Antoinette in his last will and testament to know what he thought of her.

I have read other authors say that the king wept at the letter because it contained information about a political reversal that he knew would have dire consequences for the monarchy and marked the beginning of the end. The letter probably had nothing to do with the queen and Fersen.

I assume the rumour about Fersen was spread only after the queen's death, and even after Fersen's death, which enhanced the romantic aspect of such a story. But if I am not mistaken, when MA was alive, rumours were more about Lauzun for instance, am I correct ?

_________________" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

Sat May 16, 2009 8:49 am

Therese

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pmPosts: 2266

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Actually, the man with whom the queen was most often paired in the popular mind was her own brother-in -law, Artois.

_________________I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.

Sat May 16, 2009 12:13 pm

baron de batz

Prince/Princesse

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 amPosts: 1545Location: paris

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Ah there were lots of rumours about the Queen with lots of different people.

_________________"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."

Sat May 16, 2009 7:53 pm

winsan2

Marquis/Marquise

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:21 amPosts: 77Location: USA

Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

The literary evidence overwhelmingly supports private visits with the Queen in her cabinets intime. Factually the Fersen family destroyed most of their letters so as not to compromise their reputations.Rumor had it that her youngest son the future LXVII was Fersen's child. However committing the crime of le'se dynaste was serious and I believe the relationship became intimate only after his birth. I also believe that LXVI turned a blind eye to her preference for Axel out of love for her and tolerance.

By the way I recently read that LXVI was encouraged to test his virility and fertility with Polignac when he and MA were still infertile for a time; the result of this test was: Jules de Polignac. I flatly don't believe Louis ever had relations with any other woman as he was normally sluggish and disinterested in much unless it involved eating, hunting, metal smithing, reading, or indulging MA.

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