what_now:I came in here to joke about how some people are probably stupid enough to think this would be a good thing, because they don't understand how economics work and just want to stick it to the furriners, and then I saw this:

dittybopper: China, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Germany and Singapore: Raise the debt ceiling NOW, a default by the United States would have a profound effect on our economies.

So, you're saying that there would be some positive effects, then.

Congress has aptly demonstrated time and again they don't understand economics or finance and they're proud of it. The right wing circus media encourages their followers to remain ignorant and ignore any other view as "liberal propaganda," and they do so blissfully.

Yes, it is. You have to chop from the groin - with the help of gravity - through the body. If you struck the skull, the rounded (even if not quite solid yet) skull might partially deflect the blow and cause an uneven bisection. And that wouldn't be fair.

/Metaphor is good, so long as we all agree that the liar "mom" of the story represents the Republicans//No, Mr. Police Investigator, this post was in jest and I do not, in fact, advocate or...ouch! Easy with those cuffs!

You need a band saw to cut a baby perfectly in half.. otherwise, one party will get more baby than the other.

Enitria:So, saying that, what are the chances that middle eastern countries would use their oil reserves to step in and create a reserve currency? Yes, an oil standard; oil is a heck of a lot more valuable than gold.

Good luck. Oil is about the exact opposite of what makes an ideal reference currency.

CleanAndPure:HotIgneous Intruder: Fark_Guy_Rob: I owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt at ridiculous interest rates. Much of it is immune from bankruptcy (yay - education bubble!).

Bring on the inflation. When a loaf of bread costs 100 dollars and my annual salary is 500,000k - my debts will be a drop in the bucket.

Good plan, but I suspect interest rates will go up to match the inflation.

They certainly will...

However for many people the majority of their debt is their fixed rate mortgage.

If we have 1000% inflation...I will still be paying 3% something interest.

Typically inflation hurts the rich but is beneficial to the majority of people... that's why politicians hate it.

Yes. Inflation hurts businesses that need cash for growth. (Take note of the billions that companies like Apple, Johnson & Johnson, etc have squirreled away to insulate their cash hungry research programs from inflation.) Old people complain about inflation because "a tomato use to cost a nickel" but actually, old people have cash. And when inflation comes, cash is king. It makes selling a house difficult because their are fewer folks qualified for financing, which also keeps prices down.

Deflation is different. That's when it's good to owe money - especially if you are holding hard sellable assets. If you are only holding cash - that's bad. Gold doesn't help either. No one is eating gold. Lead is the trump commodity under deflation conditions - you can get anything you need with bullets. (That's why they have become a scarce commodity under this administration.)

screw it, so what if a couple thousand people die because of the shut down, at least we didn't have to raise taxes on millionaires to balance the budget. I mean, do you have any idea how many millionaires die each year because they are taxed? I mean, if some 40 year old is a deadbeat, his or her kids deserve to die, If they don't like it, maybe they shouldn't have decided to be born. They can get jobs, I mean, there aren't any labor laws for 6 year old kids right? I hear they make great miners.

NewportBarGuy:theorellior: NewportBarGuy: There is no other reserve currency.

Said the British seventy years ago.

They lost their entire f*cing empire. We have not. We will not. We'll just have a damaged reputation, the second largest economy, and the world's largest military. None of that will change with a breach of the debt ceiling because it is not permanent.

I predict nothing will happen. Obummer will put on his cape and stand at the Capital Hill entrance.The wind will catch the cape and flutter and the decider will pull something out of his butt to end it all.

Bit'O'Gristle:I'm no economist, but isn't our dollar value based and backed up by the gold in fort knox? Or am i mistaken. Anyone?

The US dollar is not backed by gold. it's backed by "the full faith and credit of the United States of America", which USED to be absolute. But republicans are now whacking it with a stick hoping candy comes out.

RickN99:SpectroBoy: The Dem's position is "Pass a clean bill to prevent the impending disaster"The GOP position is "No funding until we get our other demands met too."

Dems: Pass a clean bill and fund the entire government.Obama: We won't negotiate with the GOP about government funding until the GOP funds the entire government.GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

GOP: We've passed bills to fund some parts of the government that we don't have an issue with. Let's negotiate about the other parts.Dems: Nope. Meet 100% of our funding demands or nothing gets funded.Obama: Gonna veto them if they get to me. Fund the entire government; then we'll negotiate about the funding.GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

Would YOU want to set a precedent where if a minority in Congress wants something, they should simply hold hostage the American economy and well-being to do so? I certainly would not.

Ambivalence:Bit'O'Gristle: I'm no economist, but isn't our dollar value based and backed up by the gold in fort knox? Or am i mistaken. Anyone?

The US dollar is not backed by gold. it's backed by "the full faith and credit of the United States of America", which USED to be absolute. But republicans are now whacking it with a stick hoping candy comes out.

brnt00:itsaidwhat: Obama and his libtard sycophants are equally to blame by representing the do-nothing leaches of society.

I laughed when POTUS nazi'd the national parks and bank rolled his NPR media. What a joke to all of us that work for a living and don't have the time to waste gawking at a tree or a giant hole in the ground. And to the veterans regarding closed memorials - I don't need to stare at a monolith to be reminded of their sacrifice - I see that in everything that I am free and able to enjoy all around me. I and my freedom are not victim to any so-called shutdown.

When a "government shutdown" still leaves 83% of the (bottom feeding) public servants at work, then we have real problem with entitlements at the top and the bottom of society.

And to the foreigners afraid of our debt ceiling, you are welcome - to the financial shelter and stability our American enterprise has afforded you under your own years of tribunal unrest. Suck it up.

This is good. Even sneaked in a Godwin. A bit forceful for my taste, but you've got raw talent kid. Refine the presentation and you'll be thread shaitting in no time!

Thank you. But I'm not trolling - because no one is paying me to do that - which I suspect is not the case for some Farkers. I doing what they call "venting". I can't take time from my busy work schedule to drive a tractor trailer thru DC or sleep in a park for an indefinite period / non-specific issue. But I can rant on Fark with the best of them. Don't cost nothin.

Enitria:demaL-demaL-yeH: NewportBarGuy: There is no other reserve currency.

We'll just have a much weaker one thanks to Congressional Republicans.

We all wish this, but no.Destroying the dollar as the world's reserve currency drags the Euro into oblivion, and the healthy economies of Europe crash. The UK? Yeah, no.Japan and China crash right along with us.No other economy is big enough, and none is independent enough of ours that it isn't dragged down, too.You'll have a huge panic sell-off of financial assets affecting tens of trillions in investment.What's on the line is global financial meltdown followed by a depression that makes that of the 1930s look like a minor sad.There is no fallback.

/That's why the whole world is becoming increasingly strident about this.

So, saying that, what are the chances that middle eastern countries would use their oil reserves to step in and create a reserve currency? Yes, an oil standard; oil is a heck of a lot more valuable than gold. I know why we went off the gold standard, but do you think a world in deep doo is going to care about the niceties? Besides, controlling the money supply controls how much of a military the US can afford. Something I know they have a keen interest in.

This text is now purple:Enitria: So, saying that, what are the chances that middle eastern countries would use their oil reserves to step in and create a reserve currency? Yes, an oil standard; oil is a heck of a lot more valuable than gold.

Good luck. Oil is about the exact opposite of what makes an ideal reference currency.

That one is so much better than my attempt to make the background black. Thanks for that.

Totally unrelated to what Spectroboy gave me. I admit I have no idea why the debt ceiling MUST BE RAISED or we automatically default. Best guess is that the debt ceiling must be raised because inflation which is on average 3% per year. I also know that fiat currency is also, effectively, debt.

Query: Would the US defaulting start a new World War? Is it possible that the people in charge want a war because of what it did to our economy last time?

The US default would not start a world war. HOWEVER there will be a revolt in the neighnorhood Walmart when the EBT cards stop working permanently.

"They have no bread? Let them eat Little Debbie Cakes!!" - said the honorable senator from the great state of Arkansas.

Elroydb:I haven't read everything in this thread but has no one stated the obvious that as long as more money flows into the Treasury than exceeds the principle and interest payments on the debt there is 0% chance of defaulting?

Also has anyone questioned the logic of "Be able to borrow more money so you can pay us with borrowed money?"

Also for tl;dr:

at this point in time the only we default on our debt without raising the debt ceiling is if we choose not to pay our debts. We have the money in our hands. We just have to reach our hands out and give the money to them

The Treasury department writes millions of checks per day. It's automated. They've already said that they have absolutely no way to prioritize what debts to pay and what debts not to pay. They literally can't just write checks for treasury bond interest and/or pick other debts to pay or not pay.

Besides that, do you really want to be in a situation where SS checks aren't sent out, government contracts aren't paid, and many millions of people don't get the wages owed to them because they're working on contracts for the federal govt or working as part of the supply chain for people and companies doing govt contracts? It would be catastrophic.

The Democrats are Hell demon spawn Satan uses to directly destroy Mankind through corruption, death, lies and every form of sin ever known, and they will take down the USA until we become trash heap dwellers like Manila without whimsey.

The Republican Party began as Progressives.

Try not to be a simpleton carrying the water for fools and men of no honor.

The Democrats are Hell demon spawn Satan uses to directly destroy Mankind through corruption, death, lies and every form of sin ever known, and they will take down the USA until we become trash heap dwellers like Manila without whimsey.

The Republican Party began as Progressives.

Try not to be a simpleton carrying the water for fools and men of no honor.

moefuggenbrew:An attempt to "compromise" by keeping the government open as long as we eliminate funding that would provide all Americans with healthcare.

And they talk about Republicans "lying". How does this law "provide" all Americans with healthcare? Simply, it requires that all Americans PURCHASE healthcare insurance. Therefore, it PROVIDES nothing.

SpectroBoy:RickN99: GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

You proved my point. It is the GOP and only the GOP that is not funding the government at this point. It is THEIR FAULT. It is not a "both sides are bad" issue.

Thanks for backing me up.

It's not the GOP but rather America that's not "buying" the crap that Democrats want to serve up as "essential government". Getting a majority and passing shiat laws only works if you can enforce them. That's why the political war is now on with the IRS.

Dimensio:RickN99: SpectroBoy: The Dem's position is "Pass a clean bill to prevent the impending disaster"The GOP position is "No funding until we get our other demands met too."

Dems: Pass a clean bill and fund the entire government.Obama: We won't negotiate with the GOP about government funding until the GOP funds the entire government.GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

GOP: We've passed bills to fund some parts of the government that we don't have an issue with. Let's negotiate about the other parts.Dems: Nope. Meet 100% of our funding demands or nothing gets funded.Obama: Gonna veto them if they get to me. Fund the entire government; then we'll negotiate about the funding.GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

Currently proposed government funding levels are a direct result of Speaker John Boehner receiving "98%" of what he wanted. Current funding levels, therefore, are at Republican-desired levels.

The original Republican-passed spending bill did not change government funding levels; it served only to eliminate an existing law that they did not like, despite that law having been signed into law three years ago, surviving a Constitutional challenge and effectively surviving voter referendum when the President who championed it defeated a challenger who promised to repeal it.

Richard C Stanford:Who cares about them thar furriner places. What, a bunch a squinty-eyed commies, weird cartoon watching commies, terrorists, commie nazis, and what ever the hell a Singapore is. I don't know where that is, and real 'Muricans don't! We care about 'Murica and tossing General El Presidente Hussian Commie Osama Fartbongo Obammy outta the WHITE house.Kin I get a cheer for willful ignorance!

itsaidwhat:Dimensio: RickN99: SpectroBoy: The Dem's position is "Pass a clean bill to prevent the impending disaster"The GOP position is "No funding until we get our other demands met too."

Dems: Pass a clean bill and fund the entire government.Obama: We won't negotiate with the GOP about government funding until the GOP funds the entire government.GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

GOP: We've passed bills to fund some parts of the government that we don't have an issue with. Let's negotiate about the other parts.Dems: Nope. Meet 100% of our funding demands or nothing gets funded.Obama: Gonna veto them if they get to me. Fund the entire government; then we'll negotiate about the funding.GOP: We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

Currently proposed government funding levels are a direct result of Speaker John Boehner receiving "98%" of what he wanted. Current funding levels, therefore, are at Republican-desired levels.

The original Republican-passed spending bill did not change government funding levels; it served only to eliminate an existing law that they did not like, despite that law having been signed into law three years ago, surviving a Constitutional challenge and effectively surviving voter referendum when the President who championed it defeated a challenger who promised to repeal it.

CleanAndPure:However for many people the majority of their debt is their fixed rate mortgage.

If we have 1000% inflation...I will still be paying 3% something interest.

"Leaving the banks full of worthless paper." Which is why the rest of the world doesn't do fixed rate mortgages.

Unfortunately, ARM's have made a comeback since 2008, as has the practice of lenders trying to get people to take out mortgages they will not be able to pay off so they can sell the mortgages to someone else, and the practice of bundling up these odious debts into financial "products". Maybe America doesn't deserve to ever come out of this recession.

Misconduc:nice troll, fact is they are do-nothing leaches - I would know I have roughly 50 tenants and all are on Federal assistance. Less than 25% worked their entire life, most don't even have a high school education - they worked a dead end job and did not bother to save any kind of money and now given free handouts because they didn't bother to attend career day in high school.

I have at least 10 that didn't even finish high school or have a job in over 10 years, and these are in their 40s collecting foodstamps and other assistance. Sleep well knowing your hard earned money goes to someone who refuses to pick up a shovel and do some god honest work for a days pay, instead our lovely government just hands out assistance to those who simply need to go out and earn their keep.

Nice, except you forgot to tell us about your supermodel GF, your five advanced degrees, needing to get to the gym in 26 minutes, etc.

The Democrats are Hell demon spawn Satan uses to directly destroy Mankind through corruption, death, lies and every form of sin ever known, and they will take down the USA until we become trash heap dwellers like Manila without whimsey.

The Republican Party began as Progressives.

Try not to be a simpleton carrying the water for fools and men of no honor.

flondrix:CleanAndPure: However for many people the majority of their debt is their fixed rate mortgage.

If we have 1000% inflation...I will still be paying 3% something interest.

"Leaving the banks full of worthless paper." Which is why the rest of the world doesn't do fixed rate mortgages.

Unfortunately, ARM's have made a comeback since 2008, as has the practice of lenders trying to get people to take out mortgages they will not be able to pay off so they can sell the mortgages to someone else, and the practice of bundling up these odious debts into financial "products". Maybe America doesn't deserve to ever come out of this recession.

I never understood why anyone would think an adjustable interest rate is a good idea. The rate goes up (and probably higher than is affordable) and you get hosed.