I'm shooting mr5 at 65 lbs. the arrow I hunted with last weekend was 566 gn with around 20 to 21 % foc. Now how much more penetration I have no ideal. Will I have more yes just because of what we all know about heavy vs lite arrows. I have no way to test. Will your arrow do the job. Yes it will. On just about all North America animals. Would I go moose hunting with it no. But I would hunt whitetail all day long

I'm shooting mr5 at 65 lbs. the arrow I hunted with last weekend was 566 gn with around 20 to 21 % foc. Now how much more penetration I have no ideal. Will I have more yes just because of what we all know about heavy vs lite arrows. I have no way to test. Will your arrow do the job. Yes it will. On just about all North America animals. Would I go moose hunting with it no. But I would hunt whitetail all day long

I think what a lot of people into and interested in or arguing against a high to extreme FOC is that with a high or higher FOC (15% or above) over lets say around 10% is that with a higher FOC I do believe you will see an increase in the accuracy and possibly forgiveness of that arrow. A higher FOC will have the front of the arrow basically "pulling" the arrow thru the flight plane rather than having the majority of the arrow weight "pushing" the tip. At least that is how I look at some of this. My reason for going to a lot heavier arrow with a high FOC was to get a quieter bow, a more accurate and more forgiving arrow and set up, which I did. Is it overkill for most everything in the states, YES, but it gives me a lot of confidence and that is what 99% of bowhunters need to look for is confidence in their selves, their equipment and their ability to use that equipment. Without that confidence, what do you have when it comes to taking that shot? I may be way off base on this, but those are my beliefs.

heavy/efoc arrows have their place in the hunting world, without a doubt but the average hunter stands more to gain from tightening his/her pins gaps (effectively increasing point blank range) while shooting an arrow with a decent amount of grains per # of draw weight. I have found that around 7 grains per # of draw weight we can still build an arrow that:
1. decreases vertical stringing due to a slightly faster trajectory
2. has good foc in the 18%+ range
3. provides good penetration characteristics
4. maintains proper efficiency with the bow
and
5. are forgiving in flight

I don't due extreme hunting so I don't really need an extreme arrow set-up. I feel we can still build arrows that will get us to the target quickly, quietly and efficiently while increasing our overall chances of success.

I wish I could figure out how to get a 31.5-32" arrow to have an 18% FOC at 7 grains per pound of draw weight...

I shoot for less than 7gr/#, but I get my FOC by using the lightest gpi arrow I can get that will stand up to putting the biggest brass insert into it I can. Then I make sure I have no wraps etc on the back. Selection is limited in a 300 spine though if you shoot 70# and have a decent DL.

I'd visit with muddy as well. I asked him a ton of questions and he was very helpful and answered all my questions. I'll be in the market for new arrows soon and I'm looking to build a heavy arrow with a high FOC.

JimboB, put some data up here on your bow, draw weight, and total arrow weight you are looking for.

I shoot a Mathews MR8 set for 70# @ 31". About the lightest I can build an arrow with a 100 grain point and not be underspined is 465 grains or so, maybe 450. I can get away with a 125 grain head on an arrow with .300 deflection, but my groups open up a little so I don't push it too much.

I could always back the poundage off and shoot arrows that aren't quite so stiff, but I like pushing a 580 grain arrow to 260 fps...

If I want FOC, I'm probably looking at super stiff Grizzlystiks and a completed arrow cost north of $200/dozen.

I shoot a Mathews MR8 set for 70# @ 31". About the lightest I can build an arrow with a 100 grain point and not be underspined is 465 grains or so, maybe 450. I can get away with a 125 grain head on an arrow with .300 deflection, but my groups open up a little so I don't push it too much.

I could always back the poundage off and shoot arrows that aren't quite so stiff, but I like pushing a 580 grain arrow to 260 fps...

If I want FOC, I'm probably looking at super stiff Grizzlystiks and a completed arrow cost north of $200/dozen.

my arrow, gt series 22 (300 spine) 27 ⅜ valley of nock to end of carbon, 20 gr insert slick trick xbow trick 150 or fp. cap dip or wrap 3 rayzr feathers. around 406 gr. & 19.4 FOC seems people get all freaked out over a .22 series shaft. marketing hype works. betting lots of us never saw 23 24 25 and up aluminums zipping through animals.
every arrow ever launched is an engineering compromise FOC is attained by using a stiff/light shaft and moving weight forward. find me a stiffer lighter one and I'll try it. add a 110 gr brass insert an you have a hog slammer.

no beans, just arrow building. I have always been fascinated by the terminal performance of an arrow and I have done a lot of experimentation trying to find that perfect build........... there is not one there are only perfect arrows for certain situations. I just ask people what they want out of an arrow and try to give them what they ask for. its pretty easy to build a high (18+%) FOC arrow, trying to fit in the spine and where the weight ends up on the shaft is the tricky part.

you know as much; if not more, about the subject than most folks so I cant tell you anything you don't already know. but like I said earlier, most people are "average" hunters so they really benefit from as forgiving of an arrow as possible. if we keep it quick, of decent grains per pound of draw and try to get the most FOC possible we can build that arrow. it becomes a little more tricky for the long draw shooters but guys running around with 26-28" draw lengths can have some amazing arrows specs and likewise performance.

of all the folks I've built arrows for the average FOC increase is around 4.5%, that is a noticeable increase. if you have been shooting a 390 grain arrow with 11% FOC then tie on a 430-450 grain arrow sporting 16% you will know the difference the first time that arrow hits your target. personally I would focus more on broadhead design rather than arrow physics if penetration was paramount. guys like it because it keeps the speed up, hits very hard, penetrates well and is generally more forgiving and easier to tune.

Ok how do you decide what spine. I've been working a while now on that. I've had some good results out to 30 ft. Then it goes to crap. All me, my grip is bad. But I can take a 340 spine and it shoots good with total of 250 gn up front. That arrow is very weak according to ontarget. Same as my 300 spine. Around 315 total up front. Weak on program.

I like to stay above 19%. Do I think it's needed no. And around 500 to 575 mark. The weight is mainly just to keep the bow as quite as possible. Is that needed no. I think the arrows your building at that 450 mark are great. I just like the sound difference.

I have a very weak spine also on my set up with 250 grains total up front (GT 75/95 @ 28" with 150 grains added insert weight and 100 grain point, 560 total grains), but they still shoot fine. It gets really tricky finding a spine that is less than .300, not many out there. This would be for building a heavier than normal arrow with a high FOC, such as one I am building for a Cape Buffalo hunt. Just not enough need for the very stiff spine as most do not need one. When you start looking at .275. .250 and .225 spine, it can get really expensive testing at the cost of these arrows.

I have a very weak spine also on my set up with 250 grains total up front (GT 75/95 @ 28" with 150 grains added insert weight and 100 grain point, 560 total grains), but they still shoot fine. It gets really tricky finding a spine that is less than .300, not many out there. This would be for building a heavier than normal arrow with a high FOC, such as one I am building for a Cape Buffalo hunt. Just not enough need for the very stiff spine as most do not need one. When you start looking at .275. .250 and .225 spine, it can get really expensive testing at the cost of these arrows.

I always thought you where crazy. No way that weak of spine will shoot from your bow. But I'm doing the same now. So does that mean I'm crazy.

I have a very weak spine also on my set up with 250 grains total up front (GT 75/95 @ 28" with 150 grains added insert weight and 100 grain point, 560 total grains), but they still shoot fine. It gets really tricky finding a spine that is less than .300, not many out there. This would be for building a heavier than normal arrow with a high FOC, such as one I am building for a Cape Buffalo hunt. Just not enough need for the very stiff spine as most do not need one. When you start looking at .275. .250 and .225 spine, it can get really expensive testing at the cost of these arrows.

Well when you find a good .250 spine with a high FOC let me know because I need a 250 spine for the setup I want. The FMJ dangerous game's GPI is too high to get a good FOC in my opinion. And I don't trust GT spines after seeing enewman's post. Also my dad had very poor groups out of his competition now when shooting GTs. He switched back to his other arrows and the groups tightened up

It's not going to be easy to find a 250 spine. I know I bought some arrow dynamic stingers. 250 spine. Out of twelve. Three were .280 to .290. The rest where around .305 not a bad arrow just I was wanting the 250 spine. I just don't see how they can make a stiff spine and still be lite in weight.

Yes tuning is a major factor in this. So is correct spine. We all can get a weak arrow to shoot bullet holes. Flight is great. But penetration is bad. Then we start blaming the broadheads. But what is happening is that when the arrow makes contact with the animal the weak arrow will flex which now causes the shaft to hit the animal side ways. This is what causes bad penetration. Easy to see. Get a tuff target. Shoot a stiff arrow in to it and watch the shaft. Then shoot a weak arrow and watch. It looks like a antenna after you bent it over and let go.

This is a very good post. Dynamic spine must be taken into account when adding weight at the front of the arrow. For example, my friend wanted to increase to 125 grains up front with the same arrow...same length. We could not get it to tune worth crap. Back to the 100 gr and it tuned extremely well. Also, by increasing the FOC and moving the balance point forward, you will, assuming you have the correct spine and I would rather be over spined than under spined, have a more efficient arrow because when it hits the intended target there is less of the arrow between the balance point and the tip to flex causing less flexing...unless you are under spined. Good post here. Cheers!
Fred

It's not going to be easy to find a 250 spine. I know I bought some arrow dynamic stingers. 250 spine. Out of twelve. Three were .280 to .290. The rest where around .305 not a bad arrow just I was wanting the 250 spine. I just don't see how they can make a stiff spine and still be lite in weight.

Check out Black Eagle Arrows. They've got "Long Draw" shafts in many of their arrows.

Ok how do you decide what spine. I've been working a while now on that. I've had some good results out to 30 ft. Then it goes to crap. All me, my grip is bad. But I can take a 340 spine and it shoots good with total of 250 gn up front. That arrow is very weak according to ontarget. Same as my 300 spine. Around 315 total up front. Weak on program.

I like to stay above 19%. Do I think it's needed no. And around 500 to 575 mark. The weight is mainly just to keep the bow as quite as possible. Is that needed no. I think the arrows your building at that 450 mark are great. I just like the sound difference.

If you are referring to bare shafting out to 30' then I simply don't fool with that. OT is a good starting point but I really try to work with the dynamic spine while broad head tuning. It's more simple for me than most, here is why:
I shoot a shorter arrow, bumps the FOC
I shoot between 62-65#'s this means most of the time I can stay in a weaker spine with less GPI, bumps the FOC a little more
I take a "baby steps" approach to building FOC a little here a little there working the arrow NOT weight up front to give me High FOC with a mid-weight arrow. If you simply start loading up the front of an arrow shaft with 200+ grains then you really have to get the shaft right, which can be difficult. Just remember audible sound is proportional with a 65# bow shooting a 450 grain arrow just like a 72# bow shooting a 550 grain arrow.

I went to the Bow Shop Saturday to build some arras. Found out a couple things.

First. I figured out my FOC wrong.
I had the tip on the arrow when I figured out my balance point.

Secondly the tech likes the Beman Speed arrows, just not for my setup.He says the static spine, 300, might be good but since it's a thin wall arrow the dynamic spine is to weak. He has a customer the shot them out of his Matthews XLR8 after a couple week of shooting he brought them back because they were bent, like an aluminum arrow.

Thirdly the Easton Bone Collector and Easton Axis arrows are pretty much the same. The Bone Collector has a wrap, he recommended the Axis for FOC .

There are two different ways to measure foc. One with tip and one with. I use the amo method. With out tip. Does it matter not really. Unless your tip is really long there won't be a big difference. Don't get to hung up on the number. Either way there's no right or wrong way to measure foc. Just which method you prefer

Can you tell the difference between say 13 foc and 19 foc. In the shot. Maybe. I can't not the good. No way your ever going to know the difference between 13 and 15.

Yes the dynamic spine is what you have to watch for when building a high foc arrow. No way to test other then just shoot.

The thin wall will have a weaker dynamic spine then a thick wall with both having the same spine. I'm doing testing on that now. Nothing scientific. Just plain shooting and seeing the results. The problem is finding arrows that are close to there tolerance that I'm willing to pay for.

I shoot at a lot of what Evers and I don't like shooting a $13.00 arrow shafts. At just what ever.

There are a lot off good arrows. I'm just not willing to pay 150 plus for arrows. Is that a bad way to look at it yes. We spend average 1000 plus on bow then we shoot cheep arrows. If I was hunting deer only then I would be welling to do,that. But I shoot coons, hogs. And what ever. I'll even shoot crap birds if nothing is going on

There is a lot of good info on the net about what your doing. And lots of opinions. You have to sort through them and test and pick what works for you. Remember building a high foc arrow puts you in a very low percentile of compound shooters. Even lots of pro shops cannot help you with this.

Oh lord. If your following me your in deep trouble. Hehe. I will tell you. This has been a very good post. No body complaining and lots of good info. I also like the ones you posted plus a few more as Well all except ragin. There is something wrong with that guy. I saw a pic of his kiddos. Very beautiful kids. No way they came from him. His wife must be out of this world.

Enewman
You Arrowsmith, bowhunttxn, Ragin, muddyfuzzy are my main sources of info.

I'm not detracting from or trying to disrespect any one!

I don't have any time for R&D or any real desire to be totally honest. I have an idea in my mind of my perfect arrow. Just no idea how to get there

The perfect arrow is the one you pick up off the ground, covered end to end with pink foamy blood.

I say get a good 300 spine arrow, 100gr. Slick trick mags, maybe a wrap, maybe not, and three blazer vanes and get to killing stuff. Get over that 200 gr. $90 each broadheads, brass insert nonsense, and just build an arrow that shoots out of your set up.

IMO a you will have to go short, and super heavy(like aluminum heavy) just to handle that draw length of yours with the FOC you are hoping for.If you had started shooting when overdrawn were King, you would be all set to build a rhino slayer!

Check out Black Eagle Arrows. They've got "Long Draw" shafts in many of their arrows.

This has been driving me nuts for the last couple of days…

I just bought 1/2 dozen Black Eagle Rampage 250 shafts. These guys will get 4" feathers, stainless half-outs, 150 grain crossbow tricks. Should come in around 565 grains with 16-17% FOC and nearly perfect dynamic spine. Should pass-thru a moose but still have enough speed not to get ducked by a tweaking whitetail doe at 30 yards.

I feel a bit like a noob not knowing that Black Eagle had a 250 option, but I also feel like I'm going to eat my cake too...

I just bought 1/2 dozen Black Eagle Rampage 250 shafts. These guys will get 4" feathers, stainless half-outs, 150 grain crossbow tricks. Should come in around 565 grains with 16-17% FOC and nearly perfect dynamic spine. Should pass-thru a moose but still have enough speed not to get ducked by a tweaking whitetail doe at 30 yards.

I feel a bit like a noob not knowing that Black Eagle had a 250 option, but I also feel like I'm going to eat my cake too...

You will be happy with these shafts, I would start them a little long and trim as required. Kudos with the feathers, I shoot them as we'll and its an easy way to gain close to 1% FOC. They steer better than anything else out there and just look cool.