But then again, it's specifically statements by the more polemical converts who have hurt me

Its easy to do. I think, as myself a convert, can sometimes get a bit hurtful in my criticisms of Protestantism, now that Im on the otherside.

Afterall, in American orthodoxy, what books sell the best? Converts pooping no their patrimony and writing a book about it.

PP

Im not even a convert yet and i find myself at times being way too harsh toward protestantism!

Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

I will reply more in detail soon, I just wanted to say I do recant of general accusations of "Orthodox arrogance" as something unique to Orthodoxy. The humility and love I find among many of you in taking the time to answer my confused questions is enough to assure me that there are many of you who take these things seriously and in love.

PS. I also tried searching for the word "arrogance" and found the final thread of Matthew777. If I understand things correctly as a lurker, he made somewhat of an impression on the forum, and not in the best way? I apologize if using such terms made you remember such behaviour.

Forgive me for any such accusations. In a sense, I suppose I also wanted to see what sort of reactions an accusation of arrogance would awaken... In the end it's me who finds myself having to repent of my own arrogance in presuming so much about "you Orthodox", as if it was this homogenous group, when in fact to a large extent it's a projected image of my worst fears of what a church I much admire might be like.

PS. I also tried searching for the word "arrogance" and found the final thread of Matthew777. If I understand things correctly as a lurker, he made somewhat of an impression on the forum, and not in the best way? I apologize if using such terms made you remember such behaviour.

Forgive me for any such accusations. In a sense, I suppose I also wanted to see what sort of reactions an accusation of arrogance would awaken... In the end it's me who finds myself having to repent of my own arrogance in presuming so much about "you Orthodox", as if it was this homogenous group, when in fact to a large extent it's a projected image of my worst fears of what a church I much admire might be like.

Lord, have mercy.

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

PS. I also tried searching for the word "arrogance" and found the final thread of Matthew777. If I understand things correctly as a lurker, he made somewhat of an impression on the forum, and not in the best way? I apologize if using such terms made you remember such behaviour.

Forgive me for any such accusations. In a sense, I suppose I also wanted to see what sort of reactions an accusation of arrogance would awaken... In the end it's me who finds myself having to repent of my own arrogance in presuming so much about "you Orthodox", as if it was this homogenous group, when in fact to a large extent it's a projected image of my worst fears of what a church I much admire might be like.

Lord, have mercy.

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

That, to me, sums it all up: the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants, not just as needing to correct a few things like (for Catholics) the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. but rather as needing to start from scratch.

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

and

Quote

That, to me, sums it all up: the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants, not just as needing to correct a few things like (for Catholics) the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. but rather as needing to start from scratch

I think that is too broad of a generalization. For me, Roman Catholics would not need to start over (Anglicans either really) as we share common ground on many things.

Protestants do need to start from scratch, because the myriad of views are so radically different to what would be considered the historical, truly biblical view of God, salvation, the saints, etc. reallyare all about.

I take my own convesion. I really had to re-think the way that I viewed God, and His plan of salvation. It was so radically different to what I believed for so long that it was almost like a night and day difference. Of course, this led me to question everything I thought about Christianity and how my views were in contrast to the original Church.

Now, that is not to say that some folks would not have that far to go. But overall, I think that to just say, "Orthodox think everyone has to start from scratch" is not really accurate.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

and

Quote

That, to me, sums it all up: the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants, not just as needing to correct a few things like (for Catholics) the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. but rather as needing to start from scratch

I think that is too broad of a generalization. For me, Roman Catholics would not need to start over (Anglicans either really) as we share common ground on many things.

Protestants do need to start from scratch, because the myriad of views are so radically different to what would be considered the historical, truly biblical view of God, salvation, the saints, etc. reallyare all about.

I take my own convesion. I really had to re-think the way that I viewed God, and His plan of salvation. It was so radically different to what I believed for so long that it was almost like a night and day difference. Of course, this led me to question everything I thought about Christianity and how my views were in contrast to the original Church.

Now, that is not to say that some folks would not have that far to go. But overall, I think that to just say, "Orthodox think everyone has to start from scratch" is not really accurate.

PP

Well, I glad you think that Roman Catholics and Anglicans would not need to start over. But I would have to take issue with your assertion that Protestants do need to. Seems to be that "classical Protestants" (not the radical liberal ones) mostly have at least a firm Christian grounding even though they are heretical in some of their beliefs.

Protestants do need to start from scratch, because the myriad of views are so radically different to what would be considered the historical, truly biblical view of God, salvation, the saints, etc. reallyare all about.

I take my own convesion. I really had to re-think the way that I viewed God, and His plan of salvation. It was so radically different to what I believed for so long that it was almost like a night and day difference. Of course, this led me to question everything I thought about Christianity and how my views were in contrast to the original Church.

Exactly. That was my experience also.

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

and

Quote

That, to me, sums it all up: the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants, not just as needing to correct a few things like (for Catholics) the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. but rather as needing to start from scratch

I think that is too broad of a generalization. For me, Roman Catholics would not need to start over (Anglicans either really) as we share common ground on many things.

Protestants do need to start from scratch, because the myriad of views are so radically different to what would be considered the historical, truly biblical view of God, salvation, the saints, etc. reallyare all about.

I take my own convesion. I really had to re-think the way that I viewed God, and His plan of salvation. It was so radically different to what I believed for so long that it was almost like a night and day difference. Of course, this led me to question everything I thought about Christianity and how my views were in contrast to the original Church.

Now, that is not to say that some folks would not have that far to go. But overall, I think that to just say, "Orthodox think everyone has to start from scratch" is not really accurate.

PP

Well, I glad you think that Roman Catholics and Anglicans would not need to start over. But I would have to take issue with your assertion that Protestants do need to. Seems to be that "classical Protestants" (not the radical liberal ones) mostly have at least a firm Christian grounding even though they are heretical in some of their beliefs.

We just need Jesus to stop by here on earth every few hundred years and go over everything again so their is no confusion. Then, everyone could stay on the same page!

Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

Well, I glad you think that Roman Catholics and Anglicans would not need to start over. But I would have to take issue with your assertion that Protestants do need to. Seems to be that "classical Protestants" (not the radical liberal ones) mostly have at least a firm Christian grounding even though they are heretical in some of their beliefs

I only say that in light of my conversion. "Classical" Protestants have far less road to travel, I can concede that.

Although in my early years I was Lutheran, I eventually became an Evangelical Protestant. I believe these folks pretty much have to start over as their view on God, salvation, and authority is radically different.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Well, I glad you think that Roman Catholics and Anglicans would not need to start over. But I would have to take issue with your assertion that Protestants do need to. Seems to be that "classical Protestants" (not the radical liberal ones) mostly have at least a firm Christian grounding even though they are heretical in some of their beliefs.

Naturally this is only anecdotal evidence. But I was born and raised "classical Protestant" - that is, Lutheran (and never thought I would be anything else). I was actually going to seminary with the goal of ordination as a Lutheran pastor, so I was fairly conversant with Lutheran theology and had a firm Christian grounding in the faith for my whole life. In addition, I was somewhat of a theology geek. I actually had a copy of the Book of Concord! Coming into Orthodoxy involved a radical re-orientation of my beliefs and my way of life - so I sympathize with the person who said that everything he had ever learned was wrong.Aside from that, I'm pretty sure that if you actually polled "classical Protestants," you would be astounded at the things that they actually believe or that they think are Christian. In my experience, of course, YMMV.

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

and

Quote

That, to me, sums it all up: the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants, not just as needing to correct a few things like (for Catholics) the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. but rather as needing to start from scratch

I think that is too broad of a generalization. For me, Roman Catholics would not need to start over (Anglicans either really) as we share common ground on many things.

Protestants do need to start from scratch, because the myriad of views are so radically different to what would be considered the historical, truly biblical view of God, salvation, the saints, etc. reallyare all about.

I take my own convesion. I really had to re-think the way that I viewed God, and His plan of salvation. It was so radically different to what I believed for so long that it was almost like a night and day difference. Of course, this led me to question everything I thought about Christianity and how my views were in contrast to the original Church.

Now, that is not to say that some folks would not have that far to go. But overall, I think that to just say, "Orthodox think everyone has to start from scratch" is not really accurate.

PP

Well, I glad you think that Roman Catholics and Anglicans would not need to start over. But I would have to take issue with your assertion that Protestants do need to. Seems to be that "classical Protestants" (not the radical liberal ones) mostly have at least a firm Christian grounding even though they are heretical in some of their beliefs.

I heard that Archbishop Dmitri (from the OCA Diocese of the South and who reposed this past summer) would tell converts to be grateful for their prior Christian upbringing, as that was what first brought them to Christ. He was Baptist before he joined the Orthodox Church.

Agree. If someone said they needed to "start over", I wonder just exactly what it is that they believed. I was speaking with my Serbian priest last night on this subject, and like other priests have told me, he likes having Lutheran converts (from the "confessional" branches). His view is like mine; they are already 80% there, they just need to be finished. On the other hand, I have met many "Lutherans" (ELCA) that ascribe to beliefs that do not identify with any Lutheran teachings of which I am aware. Those would have to start over.

No problem, honey. As a former Lutheran, I can surely sympathize. See. the thing is, that Orthodoxy is not just another church or another denomination. It's a whole different ballgame. Orthodox may use the same words but mean totally different things. It is a radical re-orientation of your beliefs and outlook. A brave new world.

A priest I know reported that a member of his Inquirers' Class practically broke down and said, "But, Father, if all this is true, and it looks like it is - then everything I ever knew is wrong, and I'm going to have to start all over!" To which Father replied, "Well, son, that's true, but the good thing is, you don't have to do it alone, and all the heavy lifting has already been done for us."

and

Quote

That, to me, sums it all up: the Orthodox consider Catholics and Protestants, not just as needing to correct a few things like (for Catholics) the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, etc. but rather as needing to start from scratch

I think that is too broad of a generalization. For me, Roman Catholics would not need to start over (Anglicans either really) as we share common ground on many things.

Protestants do need to start from scratch, because the myriad of views are so radically different to what would be considered the historical, truly biblical view of God, salvation, the saints, etc. reallyare all about.

I take my own convesion. I really had to re-think the way that I viewed God, and His plan of salvation. It was so radically different to what I believed for so long that it was almost like a night and day difference. Of course, this led me to question everything I thought about Christianity and how my views were in contrast to the original Church.

Now, that is not to say that some folks would not have that far to go. But overall, I think that to just say, "Orthodox think everyone has to start from scratch" is not really accurate.

PP

Well, I glad you think that Roman Catholics and Anglicans would not need to start over. But I would have to take issue with your assertion that Protestants do need to. Seems to be that "classical Protestants" (not the radical liberal ones) mostly have at least a firm Christian grounding even though they are heretical in some of their beliefs.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

I would certainly not say converting to Orthodoxy right now would be like "starting over", but that's because I've been slowly changing my opinions, or rather clarifying them in light of the things I've found, over time. I mean, I read the book "The Orthodox Way" by Kallistos Ware. While it is clearly a "light-weight" book and much more accessible than say The Ladder of Divine Ascent (for many, understandable reasons), I found myself agreeing with every single sentence in it, doctrinally.

But, while I happen to have consciously moved closer to Orthodoxy, I definitely cannot say it would be like a total repentance for most of my Christian friends less enthusiastic about Orthodoxy, if they were to accept its teachings. Sure, emphases might change and things would definitely shake them around, it still would not be as if they made a 180 turn from something. And if dare make a prediction here, those who DO make 180 turns must either A. have been from extremely heretical and damaging backgrounds, or B. run into the risk of becoming Hyperdox Herman.

As you may or may not already know, I participate on the Catholic Answers Forum a fair bit. Occasionally, I'll come across an interesting post, in this case from an Orthodox:

Quote from: dcointin

Although this has already been said, it bears repeating:

We Orthodox view watch the Eastern Catholic Church exprience to see what reunion with Rome would be like.

I realize that it has been said that the uniate model is no longer Rome's way for dealing with reunion in the future, but actions speak louder than words, and we pay far more heed to what happens than what is said. Being unable to practice ones historic right to a married priesthood is *not* acceptable for us, and this will remain a significant barrier to reunion if this kind of action is allowed to continue.

I'm sympathetic to the desire to restore the married priesthood (as any traditionalist should be). But that post has got me to thinking: where does one draw the line with regard to how much say the Orthodox get in the affairs of the Roman Communion?

Also, with regard to reunion, isn't this a little like a "bait and switch"?

I would certainly not say converting to Orthodoxy right now would be like "starting over", but that's because I've been slowly changing my opinions, or rather clarifying them in light of the things I've found, over time. I mean, I read the book "The Orthodox Way" by Kallistos Ware. While it is clearly a "light-weight" book and much more accessible than say The Ladder of Divine Ascent (for many, understandable reasons), I found myself agreeing with every single sentence in it, doctrinally.

But, while I happen to have consciously moved closer to Orthodoxy, I definitely cannot say it would be like a total repentance for most of my Christian friends less enthusiastic about Orthodoxy, if they were to accept its teachings. Sure, emphases might change and things would definitely shake them around, it still would not be as if they made a 180 turn from something. And if dare make a prediction here, those who DO make 180 turns must either A. have been from extremely heretical and damaging backgrounds, or B. run into the risk of becoming Hyperdox Herman.

If you do become Orthodox, and I devoutly pray that you will, you might notice after your chrismation,how much changes. I don't think that as a Lutheran I was from a former heretical and damaging background, and I hope that I have not become Hyperdox Hermania (just can't seem to grow a beard for one thing!) But I look back, and I am astonished at how much my beliefs have changed. I hope that my actions have changed a little also.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 11:53:34 AM by katherineofdixie »

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I was actually going to seminary with the goal of ordination as a Lutheran pastor, so I was fairly conversant with Lutheran theology and had a firm Christian grounding in the faith for my whole life.

If your handle reflects your real life name, then you were probably ELCA which is very nominally Lutheran. (If I'm wrong, then please forgive me.) My dad is LCMS and I attended an LCMS university, so I enjoyed debating Lutherans. As my mom would say to dad when theological debates arose, "You just don't get it."

I was actually going to seminary with the goal of ordination as a Lutheran pastor, so I was fairly conversant with Lutheran theology and had a firm Christian grounding in the faith for my whole life.

If your handle reflects your real life name, then you were probably ELCA which is very nominally Lutheran. (If I'm wrong, then please forgive me.) My dad is LCMS and I attended an LCMS university, so I enjoyed debating Lutherans. As my mom would say to dad when theological debates arose, "You just don't get it."

FWIW, I assure you that I was not (nor was my family of German Lutherans, for generations, including my mom who is still not happy about my conversion to Orthodoxy) nominally Lutheran. Also my handle does not reflect my real name but rather my saint's name, St. Katherine.

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

My "branch" of Lutheranism is very much in the Pietistic tradition (by which I mean the original intra-Lutheran group). The forensic language of Luther, with emphasis on justicication, is then to a large extent complemented by an intense emphasis on piety, repentance and sanctification. Antinomianism and lukewarmness is a common problem among many in my church, but not within the branch I've grown up within.

I was actually going to seminary with the goal of ordination as a Lutheran pastor, so I was fairly conversant with Lutheran theology and had a firm Christian grounding in the faith for my whole life.

If your handle reflects your real life name, then you were probably ELCA which is very nominally Lutheran. (If I'm wrong, then please forgive me.) My dad is LCMS and I attended an LCMS university, so I enjoyed debating Lutherans. As my mom would say to dad when theological debates arose, "You just don't get it."

FWIW, I assure you that I was not (nor was my family of German Lutherans, for generations, including my mom who is still not happy about my conversion to Orthodoxy) nominally Lutheran. Also my handle does not reflect my real name but rather my saint's name, St. Katherine.

I think he is wondering if you are a boy or a girl. If the latter, your attendance at a Seminary would indicate ELCA affiliation. To the conservative Lutherans (LCMS and WELS), ELCA is hardly regarded as Christian, let alone Lutheran. Perhaps this would clarify his statement.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

My "branch" of Lutheranism is very much in the Pietistic tradition (by which I mean the original intra-Lutheran group). The forensic language of Luther, with emphasis on justicication, is then to a large extent complemented by an intense emphasis on piety, repentance and sanctification. Antinomianism and lukewarmness is a common problem among many in my church, but not within the branch I've grown up within.

Welcome. My father is a retired LCMS pastor and I was in the WELS before becoming Orthodox. I have noticed my views on some things "mature", but in no way feel like I had to "start over".

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

In many ways, the ELCA has become that, which is one reason (though not really the main one) why I am now Orthodox. (But I do assure you that my upbringing and early Christian formation were as solidly and thoroughly Lutheran as you could wish. After all, the ELCA was formed after I was an adult.)

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I was actually going to seminary with the goal of ordination as a Lutheran pastor, so I was fairly conversant with Lutheran theology and had a firm Christian grounding in the faith for my whole life.

If your handle reflects your real life name, then you were probably ELCA which is very nominally Lutheran. (If I'm wrong, then please forgive me.) My dad is LCMS and I attended an LCMS university, so I enjoyed debating Lutherans. As my mom would say to dad when theological debates arose, "You just don't get it."

FWIW, I assure you that I was not (nor was my family of German Lutherans, for generations, including my mom who is still not happy about my conversion to Orthodoxy) nominally Lutheran. Also my handle does not reflect my real name but rather my saint's name, St. Katherine.

I think he is wondering if you are a boy or a girl. If the latter, your attendance at a Seminary would indicate ELCA affiliation.

Oh! I'm glad you said that, I was scratching my head thinking "How would a person's name be an indication of their denomination?" But yes, in view of the seminary/ordination comment, Luckster's statement makes sense.

I suppose that a new convert would need to relearn to one degree or another depending on his previous denomination, but if anyone thinks Protestants need to "start from scratch" to become Orthodox--well, if you've ever witnessed the conversion of someone with no prior monotheistic background at all (someone from China, for instance), then that's what I would call starting from scratch. There is no comparison.