Post by jackthegas on Jun 30, 2017 12:33:11 GMT

Hard squad to pick isn't it?

I think the selectors have a number of questions to answer, namely:

Does Root bat at 3 or 4?Is Moeen Ali the best spinner in the country and if he isn't, who is?Is Moeen Ali one of the 5 best batsmen in the Country?Are Jonny Bairstow's runs so important that they should take the gloves off him?Can we pick 4 seamers who all have questionable fitness records of late?Has Garry Ballance done enough to earn a recall or should they move on?

To attempt to answer my own questions; I do not think Moeen is the best spinner in the Country nor do I think he is going to get better. He's a 30 year old who has played 40 odd tests. He'd be cannon-fodder in Australia this winter. I don't know if he's one of our best batsmen, I suspect not, but I think he has done enough to earn a run at number 5.

Bairstow on the other hand is one of our best along with Cook and Root. I think we need him to bat in the top 5 (4 if Moeen bat's at 5) and I don't think you can do that for a long period and keep. I've seen quite a lot of Surrey's Ben Foakes over the last couple of years and he is a terrific keeper. He can also bat. I think he's ready.

I think that means Root at 3 and no place for Ballance. I suspect long term Moeen won't make it and Root will drop to 4 with someone else coming in to the top 3.

I also think it's time to give Rashid a run. He is someone who grew into his role in the one day side. Under the right leadership I think he could succeed. Not a given but time to find out (how is Jack Leach getting on - seems to have regained some form after this winter. I was surprised to see Crane, who has barely played any red ball cricket. picked ahead of him for the Lions game).

Post by warehamgas on Jun 30, 2017 20:23:26 GMT

Don't really disagree with what you've put down jack. But I would have a different 11.CookJenningsRootBalanceBairstowStokesMoeenWoakes or Wood if Woakes not fit.RashidBroadAndersonRashid deserves his chance after his one day form. I would play Bairstow at 5 and let him keep so Ballance could get another and probably last chance. Pretty sure Ballance was played at 3 last time and because Lyrh kept getting out early Ballance was almost being played as an opener. He deserves a run at his favourite spot of No. 4. I haven't seen much of Foakes and you may be right about deserving a chance. I think the trouble could be that there are so many youngsters deserving a chance England could be in danger of not knowing their best squad let alone team. Butler is on a bad run like Hameed but they are both class players and deserve not to be cut out of the squad. I know I'm a Somerset fan and could be accused of bias but Jack Leach is getting better and better. I saw him bowl really well at Southampton this week in both innings on a wicket giving no help. At Taunton he is taking lot s of wickets albeit on a helpful pitch but with a very good economy rate. He might not be ready yet but he will start to challenge Moeen and Rashid over the next two years. I would hope that Broad and Anderson can keep their fitness because although I think Woakes is good, to go into a test match with question marks over the three fast bowlers would be a worry.Whatever, I think it could be a close series, SA always do well here and will start as favourites, just.

Post by jackthegas on Jul 1, 2017 9:58:26 GMT

Well I don't think much of the squad they've picked. Dawson isn't good enough as either a batsman or a bowler. Leach, Rayner, Rashid and Parry are all better spinners. We could have TRJ or Broad batting at 8 which leaves our tail looking very weak. Our lower order have kept us competitive over the last few years. I like TRJ but he is another right arm fast medium. Surely we don't need 5 quicks even if a couple have questionable fitness records.

I feel like the selectors keep making the same mistakes and we are no further on in terms of answering the big questions we set out to answer after the 5-0 ashes series. We have 2 inked in to our top 5 and the rest have huge question marks against their names, our bowling attack looks bang average outside of England and we have a premier spinner who we've invested a lot of time in but has barely taken a wicket in the last 18 months. He's regressing. James Whittaker lucky to still have a job I reckon.

Post by warehamgas on Jul 1, 2017 15:50:02 GMT

Dawson was the one big surprise to me. TRJ will be 12th man imo with Dawson strengthening the batting. Just been listening to the experts on Sky agreeing with you about 5 fast bowlers not needed. TRJ instead of Steve Finn who seems to have been relegated to yesterday's man. I don't think Dawson is the answer but I can almost see why he's chosen. That apart it's what I expected to see. I suspect Joe Root had something to do with Ballance's inclusion. I hope Root comes in at 3 and perhaps Ballance at 4 with Bairstow at 5. I always feel happier seeing players bat in the positions they feel comfortable in although I wouldn't be surprised if Bairstow and Ballance were swapped. We'll see. Looking forward to it should be a close series.

Post by jackthegas on Jul 9, 2017 16:40:01 GMT

Heh. Shows what I know. Moeen bowled beautifully in this test and Dawson was a good foil too. Good drift from both of them too which is usually a good sign. It is often said that Mo struggles under the weight of expectation on a turning track in the 4th innings. Not today though and hopefully this will stand him in good stead next time he plays in the sub-continent although it's flat pitches we seem to struggle on rather than turners. I'm still unconvinced that either will have much impact on a flat track.

Bairstow kept really well too. Moved his feet better than I've seen him do in the past.

Post by irishrover on Jul 10, 2017 13:56:03 GMT

Yeah - rubbish that Moeen Ali!! Funny isn't it how players can make perfectly reasonable comments look foolish in hindsight - I feel this happens to me in cricket more than any other sport! Very unfair of me too cos I've been away for 3 weeks so I can say that I obviously always had complete faith in Moeen.....

It is simply a fact that Moeen hasn't quite done enough to justify a top 5 batting spot and hasn't done enough with the ball to nail down the spinners position so I think it's inevitable that people will ask questions although he is without doubt one of my favourite cricketers. I think his versatility is a strength and a weakness. If we don't have an obvious world class spinning option then picking the guy who offers you that bit extra with the bat (plus the tempo he plays at) get him in the team. Likewise, if we don't have an obvious top 5/6 then why not pick the guy who has shown he's more than handy with the ball. The question with Moeen has always been whether he can use that flexibility to carve out a more permanent spot for himself otherwise he'll end up being 50 Test guy rather than a 100 Test guy. Jury is still out there in mid-long term and I agree that there are real doubts about how he would go in Aus but he certainly sent a massive message in this game. Just as a more general comment as well - are we being a bit old fashioned in how we're thinking about this? Ie. Is there anything fundamentally wrong with the role Moeen is playing for England currently? An aggressive batting spinning all-rounder coming in at 7 could be an asset in modern Test Cricket in his own right perhaps?

As for the game - the result is what I would have expected to see I think. I don't think this is a very good SA team really and we should be looking to win the series comfortably. They have a strong seam bowling unit but their backup bowling is average - non-existent and that will hurt them even more as the series progresses (I think they will really struggle in the Trent Bridge Test - let's see if that one comes back to bite me!). It's the main reason they let us off the hook after the 1st morning and they never really got themselves back into it after. Having said that their lower middle order battled harder than I expected. But I would be disappointed if we didn't win this series by a 2-3 Test margin and I'm not sure we'll learn all that much about how we're likely to go in the Ashes either unfortunately.

There are still clearly question marks about the top order batting. Jennings will no doubt get a run here but the fact Balance was out exactly the same way he kept getting out in previous stints doesn't bode particularly and once again it was the strong lower-middle order plus Root bailing us out. That's fine against most teams at home but it won't win you many Test abroad where the tendency for the game to come easier after the new ball period doesn't always apply. Despite the win Dawson remains a baffling selection - he hasn't pulled up trees with Hampshire and surely Rashid had earned a bit of a go. I can only think that it was Root's personal hunch and maybe an attempt to impose himself as his own man. Dawson did fine but I'd be stunned if he was the long term answer.

Post by jackthegas on Jul 10, 2017 15:21:46 GMT

If JB can keep and bat at 5 then I think Moeen at 7 makes a fair amount of sense. Baylis confirmed that they'd picked him as a second spinner and that primarily, he was in the side for his batting. A bit of kidology perhaps, but it does mean that we can play 4 quicks and our best spinner with Moeen as more than decent support. I think on that basis you want to pick the spinner who is most likely to develop into a match winner away from home. Makes the Dawson pick even more left field I think. Even if you picked someone very raw like Crane, you don't actually have to bowl him more than a handful of overs. Playing as part of a 6 man attack in England is a fantastic way to learn your trade isn't it? It's not like the spinners have to bowl more than 20 overs and innings between them if we don't want them to.

Post by irishrover on Jul 11, 2017 15:16:26 GMT

If JB can keep and bat at 5 then I think Moeen at 7 makes a fair amount of sense. Baylis confirmed that they'd picked him as a second spinner and that primarily, he was in the side for his batting. A bit of kidology perhaps, but it does mean that we can play 4 quicks and our best spinner with Moeen as more than decent support. I think on that basis you want to pick the spinner who is most likely to develop into a match winner away from home. Makes the Dawson pick even more left field I think. Even if you picked someone very raw like Crane, you don't actually have to bowl him more than a handful of overs. Playing as part of a 6 man attack in England is a fantastic way to learn your trade isn't it? It's not like the spinners have to bowl more than 20 overs and innings between them if we don't want them to.

I really don't know why you wouldn't just give Rashid a run. Of all the spinners we have he seems the most likely to be useful on hard Australian wickets. I'm sure Dawson will be fine - the margin of success for left arm spin is much wider than other sorts of bowling (which is why I do it!) and he seems adequate. He also doesn't seem terribly inspiring. I guess if that's the balance of side you want though then fair enough. Quite an interesting article by Vic Marks today essentially saying that the idea of 'defensive vs attacking' spinners is a myth- he's saying there are just good or not particularly good spinners. Whether a spinner is defensive or attacking is based far more on the way the team uses them than anything related to their technique or style. Interesting argument I thought.

Post by warehamgas on Jul 11, 2017 22:17:15 GMT

If JB can keep and bat at 5 then I think Moeen at 7 makes a fair amount of sense. Baylis confirmed that they'd picked him as a second spinner and that primarily, he was in the side for his batting. A bit of kidology perhaps, but it does mean that we can play 4 quicks and our best spinner with Moeen as more than decent support. I think on that basis you want to pick the spinner who is most likely to develop into a match winner away from home. Makes the Dawson pick even more left field I think. Even if you picked someone very raw like Crane, you don't actually have to bowl him more than a handful of overs. Playing as part of a 6 man attack in England is a fantastic way to learn your trade isn't it? It's not like the spinners have to bowl more than 20 overs and innings between them if we don't want them to.

If we are picking a spinner who can take wickets then I think it has to be Rashid. He's almost earnt the right to be that choice. If not Rashid then Jack Leach because he's taken more wickets than either of the Hampshire pair. I have always had a high regard for Moeen esp at No. 7 where he offers so much. I'm surprised there has been so much debate about it. I know he would like to bat higher but he must be one of the worlds best No. 7s and if you play Stokes and Bairstow (which we will and should!) then Moeen won't bat any higher in all seriousness. And Moeen is at 7 because of what happened on the first day, 4 wickets by lunchtime and a 5th soon after. He gives the team that extra strength for when we collapse. He was deservedly made MOM. For the future the questions that came out of this match are, Root at 3 or 4, is Ballance good enough and who should be the back up spin bowler to Moeen. If we can answer those questions before the end of the summer we should be in a strong position for Australia in November.

Post by warehamgas on Jul 11, 2017 22:39:21 GMT

If JB can keep and bat at 5 then I think Moeen at 7 makes a fair amount of sense. Baylis confirmed that they'd picked him as a second spinner and that primarily, he was in the side for his batting. A bit of kidology perhaps, but it does mean that we can play 4 quicks and our best spinner with Moeen as more than decent support. I think on that basis you want to pick the spinner who is most likely to develop into a match winner away from home. Makes the Dawson pick even more left field I think. Even if you picked someone very raw like Crane, you don't actually have to bowl him more than a handful of overs. Playing as part of a 6 man attack in England is a fantastic way to learn your trade isn't it? It's not like the spinners have to bowl more than 20 overs and innings between them if we don't want them to.

I really don't know why you wouldn't just give Rashid a run. Of all the spinners we have he seems the most likely to be useful on hard Australian wickets. I'm sure Dawson will be fine - the margin of success for left arm spin is much wider than other sorts of bowling (which is why I do it!) and he seems adequate. He also doesn't seem terribly inspiring. I guess if that's the balance of side you want though then fair enough. Quite an interesting article by Vic Marks today essentially saying that the idea of 'defensive vs attacking' spinners is a myth- he's saying there are just good or not particularly good spinners. Whether a spinner is defensive or attacking is based far more on the way the team uses them than anything related to their technique or style. Interesting argument I thought.

Yes Vic Marks is worth reading, he always makes a strong argument. I agree Rashid deserves his chance in tests and will do better than Dawson in Australia. I have seen a lot of the spinners this year. I saw both of the Somerset v Hampshire matches and at the Aegeas Leach bowled better than Dawson though the wicket was helping neither. Crane didn't play in that one but at Taunton it was spinners paradise and Leach and Bess both bowled better than either Crane or Dawson although Crane with his 5 wickets in the second innings turned in a match winning performance although the Somerset batsmen were inept against him. At the moment I just think that Dawson and Crane seem more "favoured" by the selectors and Root. Perhaps travelling west to Taunton is a bit far for the selectors! I don't mean that really but 50 years experience tells me that Somerset players need to do more to get selected for England than players with counties like Surrey, Hampshire or Middlesex! Just ask Craig Overton! Last year would have been too early for Leach but strong performances for the Lions in the winter and this season must have made him a stronger player.But tbh it's almost a pointless argument because it should be Rashid selected not the others and I'm a bit surprised he hasn't been. Dawson did ok in the test but Rashid is a better bowler and a more attacking one in that he spins the ball more. He may have to wait for the Oval before he gets a chance.

Post by jackthegas on Jul 15, 2017 21:34:23 GMT

I don't think this is a very good SA team really and we should be looking to win the series comfortably. They have a strong seam bowling unit but their backup bowling is average - non-existent and that will hurt them even more as the series progresses (I think they will really struggle in the Trent Bridge Test - let's see if that one comes back to bite me!).

Post by warehamgas on Jul 16, 2017 12:27:30 GMT

Probably more down to England taking their eye off the ball. But credit where credit is due, SA deserve to be where they are. We now need to see a more determined rear guard action that shows another side to England. Should be interesting.

Post by irishrover on Jul 17, 2017 11:59:57 GMT

I don't think this is a very good SA team really and we should be looking to win the series comfortably. They have a strong seam bowling unit but their backup bowling is average - non-existent and that will hurt them even more as the series progresses (I think they will really struggle in the Trent Bridge Test - let's see if that one comes back to bite me!).

Evening irish!

Absolutely!! Bad for my ego but great for the series right? This sets up the Old Trafford test well. I honestly didn't think SA had it in them to make a real fight of this but England have flat out played badly in this game and they have done very well. This is more like what you've expect from a series between these 2 sides.

Post by jackthegas on Jul 17, 2017 12:29:28 GMT

Absolutely!! Bad for my ego but great for the series right? This sets up the Old Trafford test well. I honestly didn't think SA had it in them to make a real fight of this but England have flat out played badly in this game and they have done very well. This is more like what you've expect from a series between these 2 sides.

We've all been there!

Easy to be wise after the event but I am surprised South Africa we're written off so quickly. I guess it was the way they capitulated in the first test after a relatively long tour but, on paper there is little between the sides. Rabada, Philander, Morkel and Morris are a match for our quicks. In fact, with Woakes out, I think I'd go for their attack. Woods first class record this season is nothing to write home about. I don't think he can sustain 88mph+ over a long period and when he's slower than that he looks ineffective.

I think Maharaj is better than anything we can offer spin bowling wise and our top order is terrible. Either the selectors have no eye for a player or, more worryingly, we don't even have an opener who is capable of doing a semi decent job. They all seem to struggle to rotate the strike. Even Jennings, who is a blocker, seems to pick up a high percentage of his runs in boundaries. Same with Hales, Compton, Robson etc. Either way, you can't pick a blocker who has a very average defensive technique as looks increasingly likely with Jennings.

England just cannot win ugly and are 4 or 5 players short of a good team I think. A genuine quick, a good spinner are imperative if we're going to win abroad but even to consistently beat the better sides in England we need two top order batsmen with technique and application.

I love test cricket, but I take relatively little joy in it at the moment. It just feels like all of the top sides have massive flaws that make victories feel a bit hollow.

Post by irishrover on Jul 28, 2017 11:05:06 GMT

Absolutely!! Bad for my ego but great for the series right? This sets up the Old Trafford test well. I honestly didn't think SA had it in them to make a real fight of this but England have flat out played badly in this game and they have done very well. This is more like what you've expect from a series between these 2 sides.

We've all been there!

Easy to be wise after the event but I am surprised South Africa we're written off so quickly. I guess it was the way they capitulated in the first test after a relatively long tour but, on paper there is little between the sides. Rabada, Philander, Morkel and Morris are a match for our quicks. In fact, with Woakes out, I think I'd go for their attack. Woods first class record this season is nothing to write home about. I don't think he can sustain 88mph+ over a long period and when he's slower than that he looks ineffective.

I think Maharaj is better than anything we can offer spin bowling wise and our top order is terrible. Either the selectors have no eye for a player or, more worryingly, we don't even have an opener who is capable of doing a semi decent job. They all seem to struggle to rotate the strike. Even Jennings, who is a blocker, seems to pick up a high percentage of his runs in boundaries. Same with Hales, Compton, Robson etc. Either way, you can't pick a blocker who has a very average defensive technique as looks increasingly likely with Jennings.

England just cannot win ugly and are 4 or 5 players short of a good team I think. A genuine quick, a good spinner are imperative if we're going to win abroad but even to consistently beat the better sides in England we need two top order batsmen with technique and application.

I love test cricket, but I take relatively little joy in it at the moment. It just feels like all of the top sides have massive flaws that make victories feel a bit hollow.

Ah - I'm wrong again, turns out this Test is at the Oval!

I agree that Maharaj looks like a find. I think the issue with South Africa is depth - that batting lineup looks potentially very vulnerable if the big guns don't fire. But I agree with the people who were saying that England's poor batting at Trent Bridge masked an equally bad bowling performance. We are definitely in the twilight years of Broad-Anderson partnership and it's Broad who really needs to step it up a level here and emerge as our number 1 bowler but he's not had a particularly good series. Wood has looked totally out of sorts. That's all a bit concerning heading into an Ashes series without a huge number of options in the cupboard

As for this Test - looking at conditions, I think a brave captain might have bowled first although it's easy to be wise in hindsight. I thought South Africa bowled superbly on Day 1. I couldn't really fault many of the England batsman this time-I just thought it was brilliant disciplined bowling that made full use of any assistance in the conditions. Cook's innings was absolutely masterful - such a shame he missed out on a ton. If you want faith to be restored in Test Cricket I felt the afternoon and evening sessions were everything that it should be. A tight gripping contest for supremacy with neither team budging an inch. Philander might not exactly be Allan Donald but his contest with Cook and Stokes yesterday evening definitely evoked memories of immovable force meeting irresistible object. Now Cook has gone - this is a big moment for England. If they get up close to 400 they will think they have done well but you could equally see them subsiding to 280 if SA do damage with the new ball. Again - it's the same story; England's lower middle order having to bail out the shaky top order and, as the Nottingham test showed, that is not something you can rely on too often.

As for selection - I thought Westley was a reasonable selection but the Malan pick rather screamed desperation. I've not seen much from him over the years that suggests that he's a Test player. Roland-Jones was the obvious pick really. Aprops of nothing but I watched Rashid completely bambozzle Durham in a T20 the other night and I can't help but wonder why on earth England can't find a spot for him. I don't think we have a spinner with that range of weapons. They clearly think that at Test level he's too easily knocked around but I think that's a lack of imagination on the part of England.

I agree with you on the current state of Test Cricket - this is not a golden era. The contests are too uneven because it's becoming harder and harder for teams to win away from home it seems and, increasingly, the best players in the poorer test nations are giving up internationals very early to fill their boots playing T20. We play West Indies in a month but it will basically be a West Indies 3rd XI.

Post by warehamgas on Jul 28, 2017 18:56:41 GMT

No it's not a golden age for test cricket. I think there are several reasons for this. Not only are the WI players out chasing the pounds but other players are doing so as well and the one day game is a far bigger talking point than test cricket. The Ashes are still the stand out series in cricket for me. But for others and I suspect for the TV schedules the IPL and Big Bash have become more important than 5 day cricket when you might not get a result at the end of it. Unfortunately there are fewer and fewer spectators who have the concentration and patience to sit through a gripping day of true bat v ball cricket. Yesterday and this mornings sessions were excellent with the batsmen really having to graft to get runs and Ben Stokes and Bairstow batting very well. But many spectators would still have preferred Johan Myburgh and Sam Northeast hammering the ball all over the ground in a 20/20 match yesterday. Players now can secure their futures through one day cricket without even playing for their country. The attacking skills of batsmen are incredible now, the level of skill they have developed through the one day game are all attacking and offensive. Batsmen don't learn how to defend and consequently they are unable to defend well enough to dig in when the conditions are going against them. I doubt if Geoffrey Boycott would have been as he was had he been brought up in today's game. In this current climate with all the different tours I find the selection in this series very strange. In this match we have Toby R-J, David M and Tom Westley making their debuts and Keaton J having very few test matches. The evolution that has been England for the past few years seems to have disappeared. One of the positions that we do need, spinner, seems to have been fudged. Rashid is clearly the correct option but there must be something that is holding the selectors back from selecting him. It's very strange. Westley did well and should retain his place v the WI.This match will now be won by England I would have thought late on day 4 or possibly day 5 which kind of makes some of what I'm saying seem hyper-critical but when it comes to the Ashes there are questions still to be answered with the England team. Anderson and Broad are not getting better and on foreign pitches they will struggle. Mark Wood isn't a cast iron replacement either. Woakes will come back and maybe Finn but Toby RJ has had a very good day so let's hope he can keep it up. Secondly we are weak in the spin area. I like Moeen Ali and would like Rashid for the next spinner but as above I'm not sure the selectors fancy him. hammed, Keaton J and now Westley have had a sniff of test cricket and two of them need to grasp it. I'm not sure the Ashes is the place to experiment.So for the opening Ashes test I would expectCookJennings/ Hameed?Root?StokesBairstowAli?BroadAndersonTo be the nailed down places with a few places to play for. Woakes, another spinner and obviously the players who've played this summer will come into it. The series against the WI will give some players an easier chance to get runs and cement their places.