Hey gang, been away from the forum for awhile, but just wanted to update this thread.

Unfortunately, this amazing little tree has died. And it is completely my fault. I pushed it too hard. By pruning so aggressively I did get smaller needles, but I also weakened the tree too much, then put it into a bonsai pot before it was ready, weakening it further. In it's weakened state it got infested with aphids, which I think was the straw that broke the camels back and it gave up.

So, anyone who has found this thread, don't be as aggressive with pruning ponderosas, learn from my mistakes.

Sorry to hear that Bob! I've got two healthy PPs now that I've left on all the old needles. It's a fine line between too much work, and not doing enough it seems to me lol These were collected in '10 I believe. Got them from Walter Pall who told me to leave them in the nursery pots (primarily pumice) for at least a yr or two before I repot. So I'm going very slowly. Just wired one up this winter and the parts that don't have raffia and wire on, I'm having quite a few new buds. Now I'm left wondering if I would've gotten more buds had I not used the raffia lol

Thanks for sharing your experience Bob! I hate that yours died, but you've convinced me to be comfortable with my slow approach...knock on wood! Good Luck finding another one!

Thanks Chris, I still have 3 more ponderosas from my trip up to Oregon Bonsai. The others are doing well, as I had not been so aggressive with them.

I've taken 1 of them to 2 workshops with Ryan Neal. His advice on them is to not try to do ANY decandeling or other techniques to produce back-budding. Just keep them growing strongly, and they will bud where they want to bud on their own. When you have enough growth then they can be cut back. So it is sort of the opposite of JBP.

Thanks for the advice Bob, Ryan really knows his stuff! Does he at least suggest candle pinching the strongest new candles so all the candles on the tree are the same, or just leave it alone entirely? And since you have more experience with PP's, how long do you leave the wire on? I've heard a yr. but would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Ryan did not recommend removing any candles at all - until the point when the branch has enough growth closer in, then you remove the longer growth further out. It seems very counter intuitive, but that is what he says works best. I have not had more than half a year to follow his advice, so I can't tell you by any first hand experience how it works.

I have been re-wiring my PPs about twice a year, but have not noticed any significant wire scars, so you could probably leave the wire on longer. It really depends on how strongly they are growing.

I have left wire on Ponderosas for over two years without "bite". Depends on the tree and how fast they are growing. Larry Jackel, who has been working on Ponderosa Pines for over 30 years suggests that you can cut the terminal buds to stimulate back budding on old trees- once. The management of Needles and structure on Ponderosas is more about controlling fertilizer and density. Treat them like JWP for fertilizer and the needles will shorten, increase the bud density over time and the needles will shorten.

Not pinching the strongest candles does seem a bit counterintuitive, but if that what Ryan said, I'll too follow his advice.. Thanks Bob!

Yes, I remember reading that John, something along I believe the Fall Ponderosa Technique. Good for only one try. Strange though, this year, with no fall work done at all other than wiring, I'm having quite a bit of new backbuds. Either way, it looks like PP's are not ones that you're going to be able to compact the tree much by growing, cutting back to the closest bud site to the trunk, cut, and regrow.

I'll just keep a close eye on my wiring. I still have a tendency to wire on too tightly...it cost me a limb about 3 wks ago on a Mugo I wired over the winter. Took off the wire and I basically made a tourniquet out of wire. Though I'm much better at laying it down at 45 degrees and not overlapping wires. It's harder for me at this time getting it on to allow some growth, but not too loose either.

I'm sorry to see that my instinct was correct when I was going to advise that you were likely taking off way too much foliage to feed the tree and its roots. So sorry you lost it but sometimes that's how we learn.

It is my understanding that long needles are a result of over watering not heavy fertilization. Although holding back on fert for a month after you finish your candle work in June , if you watch your watering and keep it at a minimum you'll find that your needles are slower to extend.Qualicum Brian

I would much rather have my trees short on fertilizer than to die from lack of H2O. If the soil is loose enough you won't over water. The old yamadori trees of Randy Knights and Andys collections have short needles because they've been deprived of both but just survived the treatment. We want our trees to be strong, vital and healthy and they won't be in our little shallow pots if they die of lack of water.