Spider Drill speed

How fast should a junior run the spider drill? It is the drill where 5 balls are put on the court at the back corners of the service boxes and the back corners of the court. My 9 year old did it in 22 seconds and I KNOW that is slow.

Yes. Lots of data needed. But first we must standardize. World need more standardization and structure for proper comparative analysis.

Where is the 5th ball? Do you ever use 8 balls for spider since actual spider has 8 legs. Where is the start: at T or at mid-court?
Do they deposit ball in middle or stack in Mickey mouse formation (3 ball base, then one on top of that base)?

We put the racket on the serve hash mark. That is the starting point. The balls are put in the back corners and the service box corners of the back of the service boxes. So when on the baseline there are balls on either side and three in the front view. I know when my son went to the USTA CTC they timed all of the kids. My friend is getting the USTA norms for me. My 9 year old is 5ft tall and 90lbs. I know that is really large for his age. I am sure that affects his time at this age. I just think this is a good comparative speed test. He has a friend that is really fast on the court and very highly ranked in the same age group. I will ask his mom what his time is as well and post here.

Why do these things matter? Only thing that counts in tennis is beating your opponent.

Click to expand...

So why does anyone measure anything in any sport during development? Why run 40s, measure jumps, serve speeds, anything? Of course only wins matter at the higher levels. But you measure along the way to address weaknesses, measure development.

You maximize the physical tools each kid has, help them improve if they are slow, then let the intangibles decide which kids can turn those tools into wins. How can you tell your methods of making a kid faster are working with no measurements?

So why does anyone measure anything in any sport during development? Why run 40s, measure jumps, serve speeds, anything? Of course only wins matter at the higher levels. But you measure along the way to address weaknesses, measure development.

You maximize the physical tools each kid has, help them improve if they are slow, then let the intangibles decide which kids can turn those tools into wins. How can you tell your methods of making a kid faster are working with no measurements?

Click to expand...

As long as they are not used to filter out kids, I suppose they are OK. But I suspect they will be used to reject kids, sooner or later.

Also, why not just observe matches to see if the kid runs fast or not? Or serves fast or not? What is the need to quantify?

As long as they are not used to filter out kids, I suppose they are OK. But I suspect they will be used to reject kids, sooner or later.

Also, why not just observe matches to see if the kid runs fast or not? Or serves fast or not? What is the need to quantify?

Click to expand...

You make valid points. I originally asked this question to see how my son compared to other players his age. It makes for a good comparison of speed on the court. It does not take into account other factors such as anticipation or the ability to read the point as it happens.

You make valid points. I originally asked this question to see how my son compared to other players his age. It makes for a good comparison of speed on the court. It does not take into account other factors such as anticipation or the ability to read the point as it happens.

Click to expand...

My general rant was about too much testing and quantification in general, whether in school or at work. It assumes that divide and conquer is the best strategy, and does not address the holistic nature. I was reading just yesterday that some companies are moving away from their annual employee appraisal strategies. It has come to a point where even intangible things are required to be quantified and assigned a score. True creativity cannot flourish in such an atmosphere.

My general rant was about too much testing and quantification in general, whether in school or at work. It assumes that divide and conquer is the best strategy, and does not address the holistic nature. I was reading just yesterday that some companies are moving away from their annual employee appraisal strategies. It has come to a point where even intangible things are required to be quantified and assigned a score. True creativity cannot flourish in such an atmosphere.

Click to expand...

I agree in general, but the flip side is motivation. Athletes like to compete against themselves (ie, the clock) as a measure of improvement. As a former track athlete, we tracked times and distances as a gauge of progress - in addition to competing against others, of course.

I time my kids doing drills and races just for the fun of it - they love it and don't want to stop. They want to see if they can keep beating their time. It's something fun to focus on in a competitive way.

I completely agree that using it to weed out at young ages isn't good. I've seen kids change dramatically in physical ability in just a few years.

Tennis is a game that, taken as a whole, is a system far too complicated to truly improve measurably. You break it down into drills and mini games so that you can see improvement in areas. Then these improved areas, if the drills are properly designed, positively influence the system. The same is true for metrics in business.

Reading fast is a skill that's hard to measure but just as important as that first step and recovery step. Some players aren't as fast as others but they see the ball early and anticipate exceptionally well. Bird, Gretzky, Connors all saw the ball/puck early but none were known for their speed.

Tennis is a game that, taken as a whole, is a system far too complicated to truly improve measurably. You break it down into drills and mini games so that you can see improvement in areas. Then these improved areas, if the drills are properly designed, positively influence the system. The same is true for metrics in business.

Click to expand...

Sometimes metrics don't work in business. It is done on gut feeling. Like the late Steve Jobs decided that a tablet with a stylus will not sell and ordered a touch screen version. He had no data - just a hunch.

That is why large companies using metrics can be upended by a start-up which takes a risk with no metrics.

I agree in general, but the flip side is motivation. Athletes like to compete against themselves (ie, the clock) as a measure of improvement. As a former track athlete, we tracked times and distances as a gauge of progress - in addition to competing against others, of course.

I time my kids doing drills and races just for the fun of it - they love it and don't want to stop. They want to see if they can keep beating their time. It's something fun to focus on in a competitive way.

I completely agree that using it to weed out at young ages isn't good. I've seen kids change dramatically in physical ability in just a few years.

Click to expand...

If you don't mind when did you compete , what events? Have ever competed at the olympic level or just collegiate?

My 7 yr old did it in 23.5 and 2.33 seconds. My nine yr old got a 23.0 and a 21.3.
We got an actual spider to do it, too. It took a lot of guidance but our spider completed the spider in 1 hr, 23m and 44 seconds. Basically, getting a spider to do the spider is a total hassle. I mean, his mom thanked us for the workout, but, really this sort of running is not practical for what they do on a day-to-day basis. At least that's my conclusion.

If you don't mind when did you compete , what events? Have ever competed at the olympic level or just collegiate?

Click to expand...

College level in the 90's - 110HH, Long Jump. Although it was "just collegiate", it made for some of the best memories of my youth. Also played some college basketball while getting an education that has served me well.

College level in the 90's - 110HH, Long Jump. Although it was "just collegiate", it made for some of the best memories of my youth. Also played some college basketball while getting an education that has served me well.

Click to expand...

Did you know a runner by the name of Ray Brown , if so was he good ? Know what college he ran at ?

Did you know a runner by the name of Ray Brown , if so was he good ? Know what college he ran at ?

Click to expand...

Hmm... not much info to go on. My older brother ran against a middle distance (800m) runner named Ray Brown from University of Virginia in the late 80's. If that's the guy you're asking about, he was really good - top D1 quality, ran in some international competitions, ran in the 1988 Olympic Trials. Certainly a world-class level runner.

Hmm... not much info to go on. My older brother ran against a middle distance (800m) runner named Ray Brown from University of Virginia in the late 80's. If that's the guy you're asking about, he was really good - top D1 quality, ran in some international competitions, ran in the 1988 Olympic Trials. Certainly a world-class level runner.

Click to expand...

Maybe the same guy , know he ran the 100m not sure what else, this guy did run O trials ,at 44 he still can move , classy guy , works with DB every so often to clean up his technique.

Wow,that looks way easier than the one our coach has us do. We use four balls,four rackets and half the baseline and the service line. One ball at a time to the next racket until the balls are back at the start. It is a drill Pat Rafter used to use and we got it from a mate who used to train with him. It hurts like hell. Will try to get a video up in the next week or so.

The guy I know of went to UVA from '81-'84, which would make him older than 44. Also, rarely do you see runners at that level compete in 100m and 800m. Probably not your guy.

Click to expand...

Let me verify his age , I thought he said 44 I may have got that wrong , as for competing , you misunderstood , he ran a few times demonstrating what needed to be done ,trust me No stop watch needed this guy is still extremely quick.

Watching him from the side his strides look like a horses , also his head was as still as a models on a walkway while at full speed .

The focus has been on the driving for the 1st 12-15 meters , with the arms doing the work with very little upper body movement , I never realized how much technique was involved in running.

Let me verify his age , I thought he said 44 I may have got that wrong , as for competing , you misunderstood , he ran a few times demonstrating what needed to be done ,trust me No stop watch needed this guy is still extremely quick.

Watching him from the side his strides look like a horses , also his head was as still as a models on a walkway while at full speed .

The focus has been on the driving for the 1st 12-15 meters , with the arms doing the work with very little upper body movement , I never realized how much technique was involved in running.

Click to expand...

Yes. Top runners have refined technique as well on top of a ton of natural ability - mostly having to do with keeping everything in a straight line (ie - no wasted movement) and staying relaxed. The kinetic chain is also involved - the mechanics of stride and use of the arms, etc.

You're right about being quick. A modern world-class 800m is considered a long sprint. These guys are fast and running 8 consecutive 13 second 100s to cover 800m. They can certainly run a single 100 somewhere in the mid to high 10 seconds. Even at his older age, if this guy is still in shape, he probably makes running look effortless.

Yes. Top runners have refined technique as well on top of a ton of natural ability - mostly having to do with keeping everything in a straight line (ie - no wasted movement) and staying relaxed. The kinetic chain is also involved - the mechanics of stride and use of the arms, etc.

You're right about being quick. A modern world-class 800m is considered a long sprint. These guys are fast and running 8 consecutive 13 second 100s to cover 800m. They can certainly run a single 100 somewhere in the mid to high 10 seconds. Even at his older age, if this guy is still in shape, he probably makes running look effortless.

Click to expand...

He works for a shipping company now and stays active , off a very nice stop watch ran and unofficial 4.3 , incredible even if I was off a bit .

By the way, we are actually having lots of fun with this now in practice. The kids are very competitive with the drill now that we track the times and ask to do it, the parents get a kick out of it too. We had a 7 year old put up a 21.85 today which is pretty amazing for that age!

^^^Yeah, Shingo is pretty crash hot! Some of the guys and girls who have grown up in wheelchairs have incredible movement patterns. Shingo has had to learn chair skills later in life, still very impressive!