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Topic: Tesla glory/failure (Read 138572 times)

There are brand-centric folks who simply want that latest thing with the Porsche nameplate, and will not look further. They will not be considering a Tesla anyway. Until one leaves them in the dust at a traffic light. Or drives by while they are charging....

For the Taycan to succeed, those (considerably fewer) buyers will be coming from an ICE car, not replacing a Tesla sale.

Apparently and somehow logically most Tesla fanboys and girls are not very tech-savvy and certainly no big auto-addicts, makes sense somehow.

Problem is that this means they don't have much clue what they're talking about.

I refer to that statement that Tesla makes better EVs than i.e. Porsche or Audi.

a) Perhaps on paper, but not in everyday life

b) Beside the EV-part a car consists of many more things and not even the best and largest US automakers were able to mach that part with German automakers (and Japanese)

I predict with 99.9% certainty that once all major brands like VW, Porsche, Audi, MB etc. willhave a matching model, they will prevail in the market by a huge margin.

Most customers prefer a Porsche that performs 10% less but does it in real-life, not only on paper, and does it every day and every mile of a long trip and this for years and not only between frequent visits to the repair-shop that in many cases does not even exist.

Everyone who has a clue about what makes the difference between successful cars and less successful cars, top-notch cars and mediocre cars, knows that a Tesla will never ever be able to compete with renown premium brands.

After all there is a reason why it took them so long to hit the market in serious. I've followed development over years and they had EV on the road for testing many many years ago and postponed launches again and again, while Teslas hit the market months after coming from the drawing board. The reason is that premiums have a reputation to lose and needed EVs to be on par with what people expect from day one and to iron out all the minor flaws and to perfect electronics and interaction of components, took a long time.

For now I can only say, watch and see what will happen over the next 5 years, T will be gone and those who deliver quality across the board will prevail. It will be kind of repetition of what happened in the seventies and eighties of the last century.

Also I predict that all the fanboys will find all kinds of culprits for the failure of their golden calf or holy cow if you prefer the term..

Philopek you could be right and Tesla might be gone, and all the legacy automakers will have great EVs. There is no way to know now for certain which way success will fall. But I think you are very wrong on the reason why the legacy makers delayed their EVs for years. They had a business to lose, the ICE business, so they preferred to drag their feet as slowly as possible. It was intentional.

I know! The Taycan is better because it has lots more screens than a Tesla!

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Elon: I’m making an EVPorsche: we are making an EVElon: I’m putting Netflix on the giant center screen with amazing Audio Porsche: uh, we are totally doing Netflix on...one..... of.... these... tiny screens

Its a f**king Porsche, have you ever driven one? If not please do not share your ignorance. A thing of beauty to drive, its not all about sheer power or screens (only nerds would really give a shit about them anyway).

I predict with 99.9% certainty that once all major brands like VW, Porsche, Audi, MB etc. will have a matching model, they will prevail in the market by a huge margin.

Yet here we are pointing out the "Tesla killers" can not match a Tesla for range or acceleration.Five screens.Whats the bet they do separate shite and are not connected into a unified operating system.'How last century like having a word processor, type writer, calculator ,fax, filling system and a pile of reference books in your office.

2018 was the most successful year in terms of sales for the company.Many supercar and exotic car manufacturers are reporting recording sales for 2018. McLaren and Rolls-Royce are among these automakers, and now even Porsche is happy to announce it delivered 256,255 vehicles worldwide through the last 12 months, more than ever before in a year in the history of the company.

The sales growth was driven mainly by the success of Porsche’s SUV models. For yet another year the most sold Porsche globally was the Macan with 86,031 vehicles followed closely by the Cayenne with 71,458 deliveries. Next is the Panamera which recorded the strongest growth year-over-year of 38 percent with 38,443 sales. Last but not least, the 911 also recorded double-digit rise - 35,573 sales or 10 percent more than 2017.

An SUV is not a sports car, not even close.Porsche sells more to those focused on image rather than performance.Prediction.The Taycan will sell mostly into the existing Porsche fan base reducing sales of their ICE cars.

The Fully Charged video about the Taycan made it clear that Porsche want's us to know one thing. The Porsche launches at consistently 3.1 seconds all through the state of discharge. A Tesla Model S P100D can do 0-60 in 2.3 seconds at 80% state of charge and above. At 10% state of discharge that time rises to 3.9s

Also the P100D ( I don't know about the new Raven) is prone to overheating that results in power reduction. If the Taycan does not overheat, then around the track the Taycan may start slower but as the P100D overheats the Taycan may take over.

It's about trade offs. What car is better? We are about to see.

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I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

What car is better? It really doesn't matter. The Model 3 is much more important because it costs 50% less, has adequate range and features, and is selling 5-10 times as much. EVs are not a racing solution (or for watching Netflix). They are a way to reduce personal pollution. All the rest are side bonuses.

What matters more is that we have a crossover vehicle in the Model3. Not SUV crossover but one that blends the Family sedan with a much higher performing sports car.

Comparing a Taycan with a Model3 is ludicrous. The correct comparison is the Model S and, yes, the sis no doubt that the Taycan is a more premium vehicle than the Model S, whether it is a better all round buy is open to debate.

We keep hearing that the iPace is going to kill the M3, Or the Taycan or some other competitor for the Model S crown.

Reality is very different. The model 3 will, likely, outsell all the iPaces, M3's, Taycan and a few others at the same time. The real contenders will be Golf's, A4's, Peugeot/Citroën, Fiat and a host of Japanese equivalents in the electric forms.

What car is better? It really doesn't matter. The Model 3 is much more important because it costs 50% less, has adequate range and features, and is selling 5-10 times as much. EVs are not a racing solution (or for watching Netflix). They are a way to reduce personal pollution. All the rest are side bonuses.

And as a personal pollution reducer should be compared with other ways of reducing personal pollution.

How does commuting to work in an EV compare with:

Working from home?Living next to the factory, office or perhaps over the store?Working within walking distance of work?Working within Bike distance from work?Working within E-Bike distance from work?Taking an E-Bus to work?

Ride sharing?Taking a Train Trolley or bus to work?Taking a company bus to work?Moving closer to work or taking a job closer to home?Working close to a spouse's job and riding together?

Working at a remote site where you only come home once/month?Working 4/10 as opposed to 5/8 shifts?

I've tried (not very hard) to put these in order. This of course could be extended up until we take a private jet to deliver us to the place where we toil away our working day. Hats off to Musk and many of the Tesla board.

Have we established that driving an EV probably isn't within the top 10 least polluting commuting solutions?

We can explore other EV uses - dropping kids at school, driving to the Gym, picking up beer % munchies, seeing the country - even impressing your friends and neighbors - in other posts. (and probably on another thread)

Have we established that driving an EV probably isn't within the top 10 least polluting commuting solutions?

No, we haven't, despite our damnedest efforts.Most of these ideas and solutions already exist, and yet many people still commute by using a personal car with no other occupant. And commuting is not the only use of a car, driving the kids to school or going to the gym or getting groceries or visiting relatives may sound idiotic to you, but people still do it. Car mileage is what it is, even after all these solutions have been applied by those prone to do so or those for whom circumstances lend themselves to do so. Yes, public transportation could be made better by more investment of money and thought, but that takes time and is not guaranteed to succeed, and even then many people will still use a car for many valid reasons (and for some bad reasons too).EVs are surely one of the top 3 solutions for reducing personal transportation pollution, when weighted by the number of car users and total ICE mileage. An EV that drives similarly to a gas car, and costs roughly the same on a total life-cycle basis, could cause many more people to reduce their pollution, compared to your list of (nice but not adopted by all) solutions.BTW, living next to your job may sound easy to do, but considering real estate prices near job centers is usually a pipe dream for most people. And in general, it's far easier being retired with maybe some rental income on the side, not having to find a job or constantly caring for kids, to choose your transportation solutions, not rushing, not commuting. But for most people that's not a solution unfortunately.

Have we established that driving an EV probably isn't within the top 10 least polluting commuting solutions?

No, we haven't, despite our damnedest efforts.? Really.Most of these ideas and solutions already exist, and yet many people still commute by using a personal car with no other occupant. And commuting is not the only use of a car, driving the kids to school or going to the gym or getting groceries or visiting relatives may sound idiotic to you, but people still do it.I think they all exist in one form or another. The fact that "many still commute by using a personal car with no other occupant" is possibly something that we need to address?

Commuting is certainly not the only use of a car - but it is what we're addressing.

Car mileage is what it is, even after all these solutions have been applied by those prone to do so or those for whom circumstances lend themselves to do so. OK?Yes, public transportation could be made better by more investment of money and thought, but that takes time and is not guaranteed to succeed, and even then many people will still use a car for many valid reasons (and for some bad reasons too)."Throwing Money" at public transportation is difficult when we're handing out $7,500 every time some >medium income yahoo who can afford an >median priced new vehicle plunks down a deposit on this year's GWH. (Great Watt Hype)?EV's also "take time and is are not guaranteed to succeed"

We can discuss valid & "bad" reasons for using personal cars - but at the moment you were defending them as a solution to getting to & from work. EVs are surely one of the top 3 solutions for reducing personal transportation pollution, when weighted by the number of car users and total ICE mileage.?What does that mean. An EV that drives similarly to a gas car, and costs roughly the same on a total life-cycle basis, could cause many more people to reduce their pollution, compared to your list of (nice but not adopted by all) solutions.An EV solution won't be "adopted by all" - so how does this negate my solutions for commuting?BTW, living next to your job may sound easy to do, but considering real estate prices near job centers is usually a pipe dream for most people. And in general, it's far easier being retired with maybe some rental income on the side, not having to find a job or constantly caring for kids, to choose your transportation solutions, not rushing, not commuting. But for most people that's not a solution unfortunately.I once shared a lot with a small machine shop that paid me to punch in for 8 hours/day it wasn't just cheap it was a noisy dive. I also shared a duplex for years with my office which sub-let the other half of the duplex. Not for everyone, but doable.

Another commuting solution is early retirement. If you haven't made it by 50, why keep toting that barge, lifting that bale.I've been responsible for no pollution due to commuting for over 2 decades. How does that compare to my more upwardly mobile compeers?

Sorry about the unconventional quoting scheme. I've used it previously and it seemed to work.Terry

I've seen many times that someone tried to proof me wrong by using publications by myself under my real name saying the same thing of course;)

What I'm thinking is that we have seen this same read on this forum, only that if a forum member tells the same story they're often bashed and less respected. Members of the same group either seek confirmation or see each other as competitors, which is why.

In my home country there is a saying that one doesn't count (get appreciation) at home a lot, which is why many famous citizens and residents of that country became famous abroad. I'm not speaking about artists, actors or the like, i mean people like Mr. Einstein and Monsieur Chevrolet to just name two of them.

One of them spent a significant part of his life as a petty office clerk.

A pretty damning piece, the deal stank from the get go with conflicts of interest. As usual. the SEC was asleep at the wheel. Tesla paid off the Solar City bonds owned by Musk, who is the CEO of Tesla - a great move for Tesla's shareholders. They could do with that extra money right now.

... Most remarkably, the recent leaks include pictures of two partly-built Model 3 in an assembly line. It is unknown if the two electric sedans’ panels were stamped on-site or if the vehicles were only assembled at the facility from shipped components, but either way, the fact that Tesla is already beginning trial assemblies of the Model 3 in its China Gigafactory is nothing short of incredible.

No sniffing involved. She was fed such lies by a famous Tesla short, and Twitter trolls.

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Viv (@flcnhvy) 8/26/19, 7:44 AMLet’s summarise: not only is Vanity Fair portraying anonymous troll accounts on Twitter as credible sources, but the author, Bethany McLean, literally got her job by collaborating w/ Jim Chanos, Tesla’s most prominent short-seller. Not biased at all ... ...https://twitter.com/flcnhvy/status/1165953112990990338- Not the first & certainly not the last example of journalists choosing ad revenue & self-interest over journalistic integrity

Angel N Devil (@AngelNDevil2) 8/26/19, 7:01 AM He is the same guy who perpetuates myths like the Tesla FSD computer does not exist despite numerous pieces of evidence about its existence and an easily verifiable third party Samsung building it. He is doing a deliberate short and distort campaign.- More lies TeslaCharts - Elon cannot raise capital and cannot leave Tesla, Tesla is commiting a ABL fraud by not registering VINs (something that was debunked by JATO). TeslaCharts actually urged journalists to investigate this so that they can win a Pulitzer Prize.

Earl: I’m sure that’s all covered in the article cause that’s what a good journalist would do

A&D: I have never been so angry about the institution of journalism ever in my life before. They all seem to be cut from the same cloth. Will do anything for their clicks and revenue.

While I don't find that series of photos particularly compelling I do think that the only thing that could hold up GF3 is the substation.

Is the Trumpster really going to order American firms out of China? - What effect would this have?What will Xi's reaction be to Trump's Tantrum? - Huawei and other Big Chinese firms have been driven from American shores, will Xi continue to act as the only sane person at the table?

If anything slows the opening of GF3 I fear it will be caused by Trump's belligerent or Xi's reaction.Terry

I think the author is held in fairly high esteem by her peers. Shooting the messenger could backfire here particularly because the information she presented in this article specifically has been public knowledge for quite a while.

I'm more leary of Lopez work, not because of anything she's written, but rather because of who she writes for.

"Deep Throat" could be said to have "collaborated" with Woodward & Bernstein but they are usually given the credit.Terry

Think about how the Overton window has shifted from sane to insane. Reasonable people actually think the president could order back private US companies from China. In the other thread nukes vs. storms is discussed.

No, seriously, sit back and think about the time this would have been ridiculed in an instant, namely ~3 years ago.

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“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

Think about how the Overton window has shifted from sane to insane. Reasonable people actually think the president could order back private US companies from China. In the other thread nukes vs. storms is discussed.

No, seriously, sit back and think about the time this would have been ridiculed in an instant, namely ~3 years ago.

You think badly of Trump & I concur. If there's a difference it's that I feel that outrage about all of the American Presidents I've observed.Terry

China has said it would consider exemptions to its upcoming tariffs on U.S. imports. That does not mean Tesla should expect exemptions, but given the favorable view of Tesla by the Chinese government, it would certainly be considered. Tesla could also change its plans and begin manufacturing the premium versions of the Model 3 in Giga 3, instead of importing them from Fremont.

Trump has already walked back his threat about forcing US companies out of China. It’s not productive to listen to anything he says these days. See: his buying Greenland.

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People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

I think our Trumpster in Chief freaked out a little when saw that he couldn't keep Epstein alive long enough to testify.A "suicide" like that, so close to home, might make any despot quiver in his boots.Terry

First model 3 delivered in NZ yesterday. About 150 estimated to be on first ship with more known to be on the way.They come here four to a container and take a week or so to be processed. Looks like the model 3 will make an impressive impact in the new car sales stat's. Possibly making Tesla the number one premium car brand sold here.

To Sigmetnow - Chanos was right about Enron, it pays for him to be right, it doesn't pay for him to be wrong. We may all dislike short sellers in our favourite stock, but they do serve a market function to balance the overwhelmingly biased "buy side" of analysts. Also, attacking the source instead of dealing with the real information provided is called DENIAL. The Solar City merger was a hidden bailout for Musk and his relatives - that's why there is a class action suit wending its way through the courts, one that Tesla failed to get dismissed.

Will the next of the Iron Man Movies feature Tony Stark getting caught in a downpour, his paint flaking off & his joints rusting tight. Unable to move, a homeless Mangy Mutt pisses in Tony's Whompy iron boot, shorting out his Neuralink and causing him to end his days barking at his employees, getting endless hair transplants, chasing ICE cars in an altitudinally challenged Starhopper, drooling with his tongue hanging out, licking his butt in public, & changing his name to "Rusty". Terry

Now Popular Mechanics is spreading the fud! Consumer ReportsVanity Fairnow Popular Mechanics

You make it sound like the Popular Mechanics article is some negativity piece. It's a factual description of an accident (that has already been described here many times). Autopilot is not even blamed therein for the accident, while it certainly did contribute as the crossing truck was too high and the radar did not detect it, leading to the car driving autonomously under the truck and continuing for hundreds of feet afterwards. Radar scanning height should have been higher and front camera analysis should have been better to avoid the top of the car hitting a high obstacle. OTOH, the driver should not have engaged Autopilot and left his hands off the wheel and his attention off the road while driving into the side of a huge truck. My Traffic-Aware Cruise Control car would probably have had the exact same problem, but when I use it I keep my eyes on the road at all times and so do the vast majority of TACC and Autopilot users.Why the heavy bias Terry? On a science-oriented forum and in general, it's best to keep one's objectivity and not succumb to one side of the hype or the other.

Because I can tell you that the fraudulent changes to accounts, by company execs determined to cheat, is a damned sight more difficult today than it was when Enron did what they did.

Tesla produces actual product, does not dabble in the kind of trades tha Enron did and it is fairly simple to see what Tesla is actually doing.

Writing that Tesla is carrying out a fraud the same as Enron should be libel. Not only on Tesla, but their auditors and the Government department which signs off on their accounts.

Most of the claims about fraud revolve around the Solar City acquisition. But you have to ask yourself was the business in line with the incorporated goals of the company and whether Tesla could afford to allow this tech to fall into the hands of another company.

If the answer to those questions were yes and no, then the board decision to buy was fully justified. Regardless of the time it takes to realise those goals. Or even if they choose to shut it all down and absorb the loss before trying again.

Colouring a view with your own prejudice does not make it a fact and those who make a living on scam busting need to accept that too.

We all know the scams which were exposed. If you can cite 100% evidence that everyone those scam busters investigated were scammers were actually scammers, then their "suspicion" is enough. Just what is their failure rate anyway?. Do you even know?

So far you have had the business failing on at least two occasions because it is a scam. You had the Gigafactory3 as a mud field when the company went bust. On every occasion your predictions of failure, based on the fact that Tesla is a scam don't seem to be working. In fact Tesla has enacted the fastest construction and build out of a vehicle manufacturing site, ever recorded. They have more cash on hand than ever before in their history and they are expanding onto the world stage with solid orders.

Interesting ideas you have about scams.

Of course the other "scam" driven by Musk just test flew a testbed space vehicle on a reusable technology which simply should not exist. They will be conducting sub orbital testing within 6 months of a full sized testbed vehicle.

No sniffing involved. She was fed such lies by a famous Tesla short, and Twitter trolls.

So were they both wrong about Enron too? Were those lies? Or do these people have a track record or calling out frauds?!?

Every person who has every successfully publicly called out a large scale fraud, thinks that Tesla is a fraud. Hmmmm....

Don’t believe everything you read. Particularly about Tesla, which has an unbelievable amount of false information printed about it by those who are determined to see it as there religion or holy cow

that gave me a bit love, everything is correct but the end of the sentence.

BTW what would be the interest of the bears to make a company look bad?

Even though some are specialized on bear markets, deep inside we all prefer success.

In the beginning i was so exited to see a startup showing the arrogant and way too powerful big players the "Red Card" but then I'm an optimistic realist and not a fanboy.

Time will tell, what interest me most is to see how many of the big shouters (fanboys) here will silently drop out and never been hear of again after they were proven wrong and looking for new victims and a new religion where they can play Mr. and Mrs. nice at the cost of the average people.

Tesla Model 3 sales are lowering the average price of electric cars in the USAugust 28, 2019

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The average selling price of electric vehicles in the United States is getting lower, according to data analyzed by auto research firm Cox Automotive. In a recent study, the firm noted that average EV prices in the US currently stand at $55,600, notably lower than last year’s average price of $64,300. That’s a 13.4% decline year-over-year.

What is quite remarkable is that the vast majority of this decline is due to one particularly popular all-electric vehicle: the Tesla Model 3. The Model 3 currently has a starting price of $38,990 before incentives for its Standard Range Plus variant, which comes equipped with Autopilot as a standard feature.* Even a Tesla Model 3 Performance that’s fully-loaded with red paint, white interior, and Full Self-Driving, now tops out at $64,990.

The research firm added that Tesla, whose EV sales this year comprises mostly of Model 3 units, currently dominates the US electric car segment by a wide margin. According to Cox’s data, Tesla’s vehicles presently command 80% of the United States’s electric car sales, with competing EVs such as the Chevy Bolt and the Jaguar I-PACE corresponding to the remaining 20%.