GRA wrote:the Prime wouldn't work for me owing to its lack of a true hold mode - I want to be able to control when and where to emit as above.

Are you sure about that ?

Yes. It wouldn't be acceptable to me for other reasons as well, but the lack of a true hold mode is one of them. HEV mode alone doesn't cut it. For the same reason, I'd want a 2013+ Volt rather than a 2011-2012, as only the former have a true hold mode (the latter just had mountain mode). But unless my Forester craps out and dies (unlikely) or it gets totaled, I'll wait to replace it until a full ZEV meets my needs.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

I've read reviews and your own accounts of how the Prime's various modes work as well as the owner's manual here: https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/documen ... df#page=79, and none of them indicates that it has a true hold mode; Mode 4 (Hybrid battery charge mode) is the closest it comes. But feel free to enlighten me.

BTW, why the snark? I'm happy to be educated when I'm wrong on a matter of fact, so making a sarcastic remark is not only unnecessary but counter-productive.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush wrote:What you call 'snark' is my annoyance at your hubris.
You misunderstand Prime operation, and specifically its HOLD mode. I'll leave it at that.

And I've asked you to correct my misunderstanding, if that's in fact the case, so how does that constitute hubris? If you don't wish to do this for my benefit (as noted, the Prime wouldn't be my choice for other reasons as well), then why not do it for others? The Prime has 4 modes, and both Mode 1 (EV) and Mode 2 (EV Auto) are out as far as hold modes. Mode 3 (HV mode) comes close, but still falls short of a true hold mode. Per the manual:

Switching to HV mode when driving on a highway or
when driving uphill is recommended in order to conserve battery
power.[/b]

That sounds like a true Hold mode, but note the asterisk:

*: The EV driving range may reduce even after switching to HV mode.

The description of HV mode goes into more detail:

When in HV mode
The vehicle can be used in the same way as a standard hybrid
vehicle.

In HV mode, controls are primarily carried out as follows in accordance
with the driving conditions.

During normal driving, the gasoline engine and electric motor
(traction motor) are controlled effectively, and the vehicle is
driven with optimum fuel efficiency. Also, when necessary, the
electric motor (traction motor) operates as an electrical generator
to charge the hybrid battery (traction battery).

When the accelerator pedal is depressed heavily, drive force
from both the gasoline engine and the electric motor (traction
motor) is used to accelerate.

Thus, while close it's not a true hold mode, where use of the battery is entirely under the driver's control and no matter what you do with the accelerator the battery will never be used. I want that level of control (I've also always driven manual transmission cars for similar reasons, and want gears and/or regen levels I can select rather than CVTs and being limited to just one or two levels of regen). And Mode 4, Hybrid battery (traction battery) charge mode only makes sense if you're heading into a ZEV-only zone and you don't have adequate battery charge, but the last thing I want to do is use a gas-fueled ICE to charge a battery while driving, and there are currently almost no (none?) ZEV-only zones in the U.S. to make that necessary.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

. . . Subaru did reveal that the new PHEV is coming soon, with an on-sale date at the end of 2018. As such we should see photos and more details in the near future. While there aren't many plug-in hybrid compact crossovers, there are a few, and they're fairly compelling. The closest competition will be the Kia Niro PHEV, which has a claimed range of 26 miles and a solid 46 mpg when running with the gas engine. It starts at $28,840. Another potential competitor is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which provides 22 miles of electric-only range and a less impressive 25 mpg with the gas engine. The Outlander does boast more cargo space thanks to its bigger body, but also has a higher base price of $35,915.

I've altered the thread title and edited the first post accordingly. I'm kind of glad they chose the Impreza (Crosstrek) rather than the Forester or Outback. While I have a Forester, it has undergone a couple of generations of size growth since mine, and it's longer now than I would like. Even the current Crosstrek is slightly longer than my 2003 Forester, but still under the 180" max. length that I prefer.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

. . . Details were and still are scarce on this newest plug-in. But now, thanks to a CARB certification filing, we’ve got a few new details.

It appears as though the Crosstrek Hybrid (plug-in) will get a city all-electric range (AER) rating of 25.65 miles or an equivalent all-electric range rating of 26.273 (EAER). Meanwhile, its highway figures are AER 21.9 and EAER of 27.381.

That’s certainly not Chevy Volt territory (53 miles / combined), but it will challenge the Toyota Prius Prime (of which it’s loosely based off of) at 25 electric miles combined. . . .

So, guessing 22-23 miles AER combined.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

. . . Under the Crosstrek Hybrid’s skin is an advanced powertrain with a lot to cover, even by PHEV standards. We start with a 2.0-liter Atkinson-cycle boxer engine and an electronically controlled continuously variable transmission (eCVT). Subaru tweaked those elements to work alongside two motor-generators, one positioned just behind the front axle and the other just in front of the rear axle. An 8.8-kWh lithium-ion battery pack protrudes into the Crosstrek’s cargo area and provides 17 miles of all-electric range.

If that 17 miles is accurate for the EPA, it's disappointing.

Some of the Crosstrek’s plug-in hybrid technology does come from Toyota. The Crosstrek’s battery stacks, for example, are found in the Prius Prime, and the two motor generators come from the Camry Hybrid. And although it’s similar in concept to Toyota’s transmission, Subaru did develop the eCVT in the Crosstrek Hybrid. But despite these similarities, the Subaru’s always-on all-wheel-drive system falls short of the Prius Prime’s 25 miles of all-electric range.

The Crosstrek Hybrid achieves 35 miles per gallon combined and the equivalent of 90 MPG when operating on electricity alone, which clearly bests the standard Crosstrek’s combined 25 MPG. A full charge takes five hours using a standard 120-volt outlet and two hours using a 240V plug. The 2.0-liter gas engine alone is good for 139 horsepower, though total system output is 148 horsepower, with 149 lb-ft of torque available from zero RPM, thanks to the electric motors.

The Crosstrek, like other PHEVs, offers driving modes that can save and recharge the battery packs, as well as a Normal mode. The good news is that regardless of which mode you select, the Crosstrek Hybrid retains its all-wheel-drive setup – a unique selling point among plug-in hybrids, especially affordable ones. Thanks to the gas engine’s mechanical connection to all four wheels, the Subaru’s AWD system works all the time – even when the battery is drained.

Normal mode keeps the Crosstrek eco-minded with a combination of gas and EV driving, depending on its charge level and your throttle inputs. Push the gas pedal past 50 percent and the gas unit kicks in to help out. The Save mode forces the Crosstrek to, well, save its 17 miles of electric charge for later use, like after a long highway drive when you’re about to hit city streets. And lastly, Charge mode fires up the gas engine and makes it work to refill the batteries as you continue driving.

So, sounds like they include a true 'Hold' mode, unlike the Prime. We'll have to wait until the owner's manual is available or for more testing to confirm that.

I cycled through each drive mode multiple times during my drive in and around Santa Barbara, California, noting few changes in how the car behaved switching from one mode to another. The most noticeable difference was slightly reduced acceleration in Save mode. Regardless of which drive mode you select, regenerative braking is there to help at all four corners of the car. After a brief “getting to know you” period, the regen becomes a friend, recouping energy without some of the bad manners of other regenerative brake rigs. A roughly 10-mile-long descent through the Santa Barbara mountains allowed us to regain nearly half of the electric range by the time the car returned to sea level. That’s an extreme case, but regen braking really does work to extend your EV driving range.

The Crosstrek Hybrid was less happy climbing hills, where the CVT kept the RPMs high enough that the powertrain felt stressed by its task. Aside from that concession, the Crosstrek Hybrid is a fine road trip vehicle, though it’d be smart to build up some momentum before overtaking other drivers or prior to climbing mountains. . . .

Cargo space is down a full 24 percent compared to the non-hybrid: 20.8 cubic feet for the standard Crosstrek versus 15.9 cubic feet in the hybrid model. Blame that big battery pack. For a customer base that loves loading up their pets on the weekends, it’s worth mentioning that your golden retriever may resent you for choosing the PHEV, as it has less wiggle room due to the raised floor. . . .

Otherwise, the Hybrid gets the same equipment found in the Crosstrek Limited. This includes the eight-inch Starlink infotainment system (complete with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto), automatic climate control, and keyless entry as standard. Sought-after safety features such as blind-spot monitoring, adaptive cruise control, and rear cross traffic alert also come standard as part of Subaru’s well-regarded EyeSight system. The only available option package – priced at $2,500 – adds a moonroof, heated steering wheel, voice-activated navigation, and Harmon Kardon sound system. . . .

Once you press the X-Mode button to engage the vehicle’s off-road setting, the car attacks the dirt with little hesitation. X-Mode also fires up Hill Descent Control, which uses the car’s brake regeneration system to keep things in check moving downhill, while also adding some extra juice back into the battery (brief applause for innovation). And remember, the all-wheel-drive system is working all the time, even when using purely electric power. So, when the going gets a little hairy, the Crosstrek is always ready for the challenge. . . .

Prices start at $34,995, or $7,800 less [Sic. More] than the $27,195 gas-only Limited, though the Crosstrek Hybrid qualifies for a $4,500 federal income-tax credit, as well as state credits, depending on location. Unfortunately, Subaru only plans to stock the car at dealers in 10 California Air Resource Board (CARB)-compliant states, though customers may order the Crosstrek Hybrid and have it delivered anywhere in the remaining 40. . . .

The second-generation Crosstrek Hybrid has its issues – tight cargo space, limited power, and a hefty starting price, so don’t expect it to become the brand’s top seller or supplant its cheaper, non-hybrid sibling. However, it stands out as an over-achiever, finding the balance between electric efficiency and off-road capability. Flaws aside, it’s the most interesting car in the Subaru family right now.

I'll look at it but I'm underwhelmed (as I've always been by the Crosstrek, preferring the regular Impreza hatch, or my Forester). Still, between this and the Outlander PHEV, the Crosstrek XV (Plug-in) Hybrid fits my needs better, and as Subaru's first PHEV attempt using a conversion it's still better all-around than say the Ford Energis.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.