"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Saturday, October 1, 2011

Why Did Rick Warren Bring in Robert Morris? Because Warren Considers Him One of the Top Financial Authorities in America

"I've brought in two of the top leaders in biblical financial planning....I want you to hear these two experts the next two weeks....Robert Morris is one of the top authorities in this area in America...I know you're going to be blessed from this message because he wrote an entire book on it." Rick Warren endorsing Robert Morris------------------------------

Do you want to know why Rick Warren brought Robert Morris in to preach on financial blessings in difficult days? Watch the video below and you'll see. The video was shot the week prior to Morris preaching at Saddleback, as an introduction to the financial series this fall. It was posted on Warren's 9/17/11 "News and Views" video blog.

Sadly, as seen in the video below, Warren declares to his peeps that Robert Morris is one of the top financial authorities in the country. Rick Warren, with a straight face, calls Robert Morris a financial "expert". Actually, Robert Morris is not a top authority on anything - not even the bible, much less financial planning. Yet Warren told his sheep that Morris would be able to help them in their finances because he is such a top authority in that area.

The question for Southern Baptists and other evangelicals is this: does Warren believe Robert Morris' phony-baloney story about tithes "redeeming" our finances from the curse of God - or did he simply fail to perform his due diligence before inviting Morris in? If it is the latter, will Warren warn his people and correct Morris?

I really don't care which it is. The bottom line is that Warren failed his church members by endorsing Morris' teaching in advance, declaring him to be a "top authority" on finances. This just demonstrates a deeper problem in modern Christianity - pastors who really don't know a hill of beans about much of anything, who think they and their preacher pals are "experts" on this or that and end up leading their sheep astray.

Let's face it. Most megachurch pastors have degrees that are absolutely worthless in the real world. Most are not trained in the sciences, they are not trained in liberal arts, and they certainly aren't trained in economics or financial management. The one thing they are trained in - the bible or preaching - they apparently are no longer satisfied to do full time. They think they are authors or motivational speakers, or expert historians, or financial planners, or story-tellers or comedians. I know a few who even pose as first-hand experts on Islamic Jihad.

We are witnessing these preachers using their congregations to make markets for their friends. Jerry Vines did it with Ergun Caner, allowing him to speak after 9/11 as he transformed himself from "Butch Caner" into "Ergun Mehmet Caner". On Phil Waldrep's website Ergun Caner was described as a "hardened terrorist" to help sell his conversion testimony on a CD for a whopping $35. Ken Ham is an expert on paleontology preaching in our churches and telling us how old we must believe the earth is if we are good Christians, and David Barton is an expert on U.S. history who tells us our constitution is a compilation of 18th century sermons and likens the signers of our Declaration of Independence to a bunch of baptist preachers. And now Robert Morris is our "expert" on financial planning. What do these guys all have in common? They love to sell books and go on speaking tours - and their market is US.

No wonder our culture is laughing at our Savior, because we who name His name are so gullible as to be led astray by men who use Him for their own personal agendas.

Pastors, just preach the bible, and care for your flock. That is what you are qualified to do. It is what you are trained to do and paid to do. You're not an expert on science or finances or history. And your megachurch buddy who wrote a book on this or that is not an expert either.

Shepherds, just stick to feeding your sheep the word.

And church members, keep an eye on your preacher and your pulpit. Your preacher may not do his due diligence before he brings someone in, or worse he may be fooled himself.

These celebrity preachers are just taking their cues from all the secular entertainers who believe they're experts on ( fill in the blank ). If it's on TV or in the pulpit, it must be true.

Actors take up a pet cause, and the next thing you know, they're invited to the Senate to testify as an expert. Mega church pastors are entertainers, with their entourages and bodyguards. And they live the big buck lifestyle that goes with that, off the backs of the sheep.

Watchdog, you deserve much credit for opening the eyes of the sheep to these charlatans. Keep up the great work. I really believe people are waking up.

First of all, some preacher explaining what God can or cannot do (he can't bless you if you don't do such-n-such). That alone should get people scratching their heads. If there is a God, he most certainly can do anything he feels like. He created the whole world, yet he can't bless you unless you follow the tithing equation?? It's so stupid.

To me, these are men who realize that you can make a lot of money off people who trust the Bible. You simply use your selling talents and align them with something the audience believes in strongly. The audience wants to please God. The audience wants more money (although they surely must have some unease in the back of their mind re wanting to become wealthy and following Jesus-doesn't really line up real well.)

They funniest part is Warren sitting there talking about losing weight, etc. Not that those things aren't good goals and helpful to people-it just seems a little off the church's mission statement probably. Let's see, "win souls, lose weight, get rich." It just seems ridiculous.

Sharon - right, "stupid" is the way to characterize it. It is mindless nonsense what Morris taught Saddleback.

What does this say to those who aren't Christians, when they see such ridiculousness believed and applauded by Christians?

Don't forget, Rick Warren is the face of mainstream evangelicalism in America whether we like it or not. What he does, what he pushes and what he allows in his pulpit has an impact on how people view Christianity.

It's all about "show me the money". These megachurch pastors need to keep their massive operations running, and some of them will go to any lengths to keep the dollars flowing. It's sickening, especially to see it in the SBC. Good post.

Another thing-if 95% of Christians actually do not tithe, how do you explain the many who are already wealthy? How did they get that way without the ESSENTIAL ingredient?

If this was looked at scientifically, wouldn't the scientist say, "This is my theory: tithing is the key to wealth." Then if another scientist found an example of a wealthy Christian who did not tithe, the theory would be a failure, right? He would have shown that it was not an essential part of obtaining wealth. If it's essential, then there cannot be exceptions, right?

"It's all about "show me the money". These megachurch pastors need to keep their massive operations running, and some of them will go to any lengths to keep the dollars flowing. It's sickening, especially to see it in the SBC. Good post.

October 1, 2011 8:58 AM@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@Indeed, a good post - I can't remember a sermon Brunson has preached without bringint up the subject of money - he always slips it in, along with the pictures of the big cruise ships.

Yep, the mega ministers are hurting, they are talking to much about the subject, even the so called experts who make their living off of the people in the pews. We are tithers plus, but no way to men like these hawks, and thats what they are. The Jim Bakers of 2011.

“...does Warren believe Robert Morris' phony-baloney story about tithes "redeeming" our finances from the curse of God...”

I’d say so.

“The bottom line is that Warren failed his church members...”

Rick Warren failed his church members the day he started proclaiming his false Purpose Driven™ Life gospel which is no gospel at all. It is another gospel. So many have been and are being deceived at Saddleback and around the world by Rick Warren’s false teachings.

I notice in the above video Rick Warren is still twisting Jeremiah 29 out of its intended context, too many people still do. Previously it was for your purpose now it's for your prosperity. Wicked.

“Jeremiah 29:11

A more common form of misuse of Scripture is taking passages out of context. Warren gives this exaggerated promise, “If you have felt hopeless, hold on! Wonderful changes are going to happen in your life as you begin to live it on purpose,” followed up with this quote from Jeremiah 29:11, “I know what I am planning for you…. “I have good plans for you, not plans to hurt you. I will give you hope and a good future” (p. 31). Unfortunately, this is a promise to Israel concerning their future, not a general promise for all people (even Christians) at all times. Just a few chapters later the promise is reversed, “Behold, I am watching over them for harm and not for good…” (44:27). And in Lamentations 3:38 the same prophet writes, “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?” It is strange how people love to claim Jeremiah 29:11 and ignore passages such as these last two. I have yet to find anyone who has claimed Jeremiah 44:27 as their life’s verse.” - The Purpose-Driven Life: An Evaluation - Part 2

In both videos you have posted there’s that portion where Robert Morris mentions “....God blesses us and there’s an exponential component to our finances...” and I wanted to zoom in on this “exponential” business. It is funny he mentions that word because Rick Warren is into “exponential” too. I don’t know if Robert Morris got the idea off Rick Warren’s books and teachings or if Rick Warren got the idea from Robert Morris’ books or teachings???? Birds of a feather flock together.

Just apply the same principles to your dollars and sense and anything else you want, eh? I think I’ll try a bit of that old exponential stuff and see how it goes. Instead of 1 Harley Davidson I’ll just add a 0 on the end of the 1 and hey presto, I now have 10 Harley Davidsons. Simple. Oh, its not so simple after all, I aint got 1 Harley Davidson to start with. Dash.

Love yourself, huh? Maybe we should stop mucking around and just cut to the chase and starting worshipping ourselves, we look like God don’t we? So what’s so wrong with being in love with ourselves? Are we men or beasts or gods or what? We haven’t forgiven ourselves, that’s the problem....

So sad that when many people are in distress because of our economy there are those who try to take advantage of the Biblicaly gullible. It is truly ridiculous to think we can bargain with God as though he is a pawn broker. As a pastor i am ashamed of what is happening as some are so desirous of raising money for more salary and unneeded buildings. I would never give an invitation to a "finacial authority" to me it is heart-breaking to see what is being done in the name of Christ.

Even worse than pastors who "don't know a hill of beans about anything", I would imagine a blogger that doesn't know a hill of beans about anything but has an opinion about everything would be even worse.

And btw, when you use the word "Bible" it should be capitalized. Just in case you were wondering.

That whole Daniel Plan business is based upon falsehood, a twisting of the Scriptures and Warren brought in three godless men to help him promote the thing???? The book of Daniel does NOT say that “Daniel chose healthy eating instead of the king’s rich foods.” Rick Warren has added to and taken away from the word of God. Again. Another con. The king’s food and drink may have been rich, choice, great, mouth watering delicacies but Daniel chose not to eat or drink them maybe because they were foods and drinks that had been sacrificed to idols or were outside Israel's dietary laws but for whatever reason Daniel didn’t want to defile himself and it was nothing to do with healthy eating and loosing weight etc. Rick Warren teaches the commandments and traditions of men and lays heavy burdens upon peoples backs. People can make up their own minds whether they want to diet or not but not on Warren’s false say so.

“In 2011, Pastor Warren, along with leading medical experts Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Daniel Amen and Dr. Mehmet Oz, developed The Daniel Plan, a 52-week journey, based on the prophet Daniel who chose healthy eating instead of the king’s rich foods. The Daniel Plan is part of Saddleback’s Decade of Destiny, the church’s spiritual growth and expansion plan for the next 10 years. The plan aims to equip church members in seven key areas: spiritual, physical, financial, relational, vocational, emotional and mental. This program was designed to help congregants get physically healthier, using a monthly conference call to encourage those participating in the plan, small groups and a website offering tools and resources from the medical experts.” - The Daniel Plan @ Pastor Rick and Kay Warren’s online newsroom which is provided by A. Larry Ross Communications.

A. Larry Ross is Rick Warren’s public relations officer/manager. Something like that. Ross does all the dirty work for Rick Warren, like cover up Rick Warren’s trail of destruction that he’s left behind. Maybe he will be left behind? I read something about being left behind somewhere once or twice. I hope I aint left behind the eight ball.

Here is a great review of The Daniel Plan by a salty scurvy ridden sea dog of a pirate ship captain no eyes one wooden leg the other one's gone a hook in one hand no hand in the other squawking parrot on top of his noggin lovable crust rusty barnacle covered old rogue he is:

Blasts “The Daniel Plan” to smithereens right out of the water into a cloud of smoke bravo ho ho ho and a bottle of rum in me tum tum tum maybe....

“Currently, Rick Warren's church (Saddleback) is making a brazen public display of the lousy way they handle Scripture. Their new craze - The Daniel Plan - is an absolute theological farce and a worthy candidate for my "Lame Attempts At Relevance" series. One can only wonder whether any of the people who promote the Daniel Plan have actually read the first chapter of Daniel.” – continue here

The whole series of posts discussing Rick Warren’s video presentation at the Desiring God Conference at the above blog are worth their weight in diamonds for the sound biblical doctrine they contain. Rick Warren’s Scripture twisting false teachings are clearly revealed.

Robert Morris article from the Tyler, TX newspaper. Even his parents admit his insincerity, then buffer the statement by saying he's changed.

"The 1979 Pine Tree High School graduate has come a long way, without going very far, since his days of preaching at the Hiway 80 Rescue Mission. It’s where his father, Jearl Morris, first saw his son officially preach.

Jearl Morris remembered hearing his son preach at a much earlier age, to an empty room.” “He was in there just preaching up a storm and had a tape recorder and recorded it.”

When his parents Jearl and Rosalie talk about their son, the words “rebellious,” “strong-willed,” “trouble,” and “get attention,” are used by each to describe, not only their son, but many of the situations he got himself into during those early years.

“He was preaching from a young age,” the father said, “but it was not for the glory of God. It was for the glory of Robert.”

“Yes, he was out for attention,” chimed in the mother. “Always out for more attention. It was very troublesome.”

Those of us who were around the mega world of the 90's up close and personal can tell you a few things about Warren. One reason he is so confusing is because he is a Chameleon. He can re-invent himself many times a day. It depends on his audience.

He has skated around apostasy quite a bit. All in the name of success.

At the DG conference, he is a Calvinist who quotes Spurgeon. (Piper lost credibility on that decision)

With the media he is the cool and hip seeker guy.

When in Syria he is praising the dictator for the freedom Christians have there. Uh, right. Ever read Voice of the Martyrs?

The president of Rwanda praised a book for saving his country. The book was Purpose Driven Life...not the bible. (Remember the big PEACE plan Warren unvieled years back? What happened to that)

And we have his buidling bridges to Muslims. Some dubbed it Chrislam.

Just when you think Warren is off the radar, some big campaign is launched. And he is back in the media.

But he is always to drop duds like Chrislam like a hot potatoe and spin it away.

About 8 years ago, lots of negativity about Warren was making inroads in the blogosphere. Warren did not like being scrutinized at all. In fact, he was a pioneer in having members sign covenants promising not to say negative things about him or SAddleback.

Anyway, he hired some PR guys to make the rounds of blogs to counteract the negative. One of the nastiest was the Arbanes guy. Some of it got very nasty with legal action, etc. One apologetic ministry blog was hacked and had to shut down for a while to be fixed.

Rick Warren will always be coming up with some new thing to get media attendion. He craves it.

This latest thing with Morris is for one reason only. Mega's are suffering financially in this economy. They see the giving trajectory and it could get serious real fast. When you need a million a month to exist...you have problems in this economy. The glory days of rolling in the dough are over.

Hi everyone, Just wanted to add a few indisputable facts to the conversation. This is not an attack of character, as when lacking evidence, that is the argument of the uninformed and those with ulterior motives.

-Gateway Church is completely open with all of their financial records every year, culminated in a business report and an annual business meeting. - Pastor Robert Morris does not take a paycheck from Gateway Church. - Robert Morris does not take a paycheck from any of the Blessed Life material. - Pastor Robert and Gateway Church is part of a financial accountability program that is not affiliated with any specific church or denomination. - Gateway Church has not suffered any, but has actually grown during the economic recession. - During the recession, the church has completed a multi-million dollar building process without falling into debt. - Pastor Robert Morris has preached on the Blessed life series only in 2001, 2004, 2007, and 2011 at Gateway Church. The remaining weekends, Pastor Robert Morris and the other pastors on staff preach unabashedly the truth of the Gospel Message. - Gateway Church is noted among the most giving church in the world. - Large amounts of money within the church are given to foreign missions, specifically missions to Israel. - Global Mission Trips are always being sent out to minister. With the Japan disaster, finances and teams were sent to serve and help with relief. -Within the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex, there are many local outreaches such as partnering with City Church International. -Gateway Church has a large outreach to single mothers, and has to date paid for many single mothers to complete their college education.

This information is not intangible, ethereal, feelings of blessing. These facts cannot be chocked up to kool-aid drinking hysteria, but logical facts. These are facts that may be checked. Furthermore, this information is not for the moderator of this forum, though he is welcome to respond. He unfortunately has passed judgment. This information is for those who are legitimately searching for information and discernment. Love in Christ. -Josh

I just wonder if these two salesmen know what they are aligning themselves with. I guess I'd have to say yes.

Their mindset is reflective of the banker bailouts, only using God instead of the economy as the reason why they need our money.

Wall Street and international banking cartels told us we had to pay off all of their bad and fake investments or the economy would fail. Well that worked, didn't it?

The fake prop-up we paid for is crumbling before our eyes. But ya know what? The bankers aren't worried about their financial futures, are they? And the traders love this economy because they are making a fortune off of it by taking advantage of confused, gullible and vulnerable people.

Now enter the megachurch pastors. All wondering what to do to keep their palaces and egos going. Licking their chops like wolves as they see their flocks desperately circling the drain, looking for any way possible to maintain their financial stability.

Acting as a broker for God, the pastor tells them if they give their money to God (him) they'll have their heart's desire.

Robert Morris' church this weekend is using a commercial of a man who had $7,000 in bills and just $500 in his checking account. Well he tithed $50 out of that $500 and guess what??!!!! His finances turned around! This is so wrong and so desperate; a last ditch effort to scrape off $50 from anyone who has it.

If Robert Morris and Rick Warren are such financial wizards, why don't they fix our economy? I mean really, if this is so spectacular don't you think we could amend the Constitution and have the government give 10 percent to the churches????? Just think of the prosperity we could get back in our nation.

Well, to answer that question, they have no intention of fixing anything, anymore than Wall Street or the international banking system, or Congress, or the government -- wanted to FIX anything.

Just like Wall Street, they are doing it for themselves. They aren't going to get caught up in this economy and guess who's going to bail them out? YOU.

At least the bankers were upfront about why they are doing it. You yo-yos have to bring in God as your pitchman.

Pathetic.

Get a backbone Morris and do what's right. Which one is it? God or money? You preach that man can't served both.

But is he really teaching heresy or only what you disagree with? If you listen to his teaching, he is not really teaching anything that is contrary to historical Christianity. What I am trying to explain that just disagreeing with your interpretation of Scripture is not grounds to accuse the character of the man, which is what is happening.

But as the previous Anon says, that does not negate the fact that Robert Morris is showing up in churches and teaching false, ridiculous heresies.

Giving 10% of one's income does NOT mean you've executed a "good business deal" and purchased God's protection. It does NOT mean that you've just enabled God to multiply the 90% that you have left. That is a lie. In fact, it is dangerously close to fraud.

He is trying to export, and Rick Warren and Perry Noble have imported, this false heretical teaching into their church.

I agree with you completely. Tithing is not about purchasing protection. That is not what Pastor Robert Morris is stating. What he is teaching is that not tithing is a sin, which if you disagree with, I'm ok with that, at least you are honest in your disagreement. Pastor Robert is teaching that when we don't tithe, we are disobedient to God, and therefore, out from under submission to Him the same as if we were committing adultery, lying, or any other sin. And when you listen to his messages, he explains that monetary blessing is not the goal, nor the guaranteed reward. What is promised is the blessing that comes with walking in obedience and discovering the joy of giving. Pastor Robert does not teach this message solely, however, it is the message that he believes that God has told him to preach when he teaches elsewhere.

There is no denying that God has blessed Gateway Church. Now, whether it is because of Robert's message of tithing, or because of the humility that he and the rest of the staff exemplify, I am not sure. But God is moving mightily there. There were 400 people who committed their lives to the Lord this summer. I tend to look at it within the context of Acts 5. If it is fake, then it will fail. However, if it is of God, then I would be afraid to stand against Him. Love in Christ, Josh

"But is he really teaching heresy or only what you disagree with? If you listen to his teaching, he is not really teaching anything that is contrary to historical Christianity."

Josh, Historical Christianity is full of heresy. Indulgences (which is close to Morris's teaching), transubstantiation, padeobaptism, church/state government, God as war shield. The list of heresy is long.

" What I am trying to explain that just disagreeing with your interpretation of Scripture is not grounds to accuse the character of the man, which is what is happening."

What? Teaching heresy has nothing to do with character? Are you serious?

"Pastor Robert is teaching that when we don't tithe, we are disobedient to God, and therefore, out from under submission to Him the same as if we were committing adultery, lying, or any other sin. And when you listen to his messages, he explains that monetary blessing is not the goal, nor the guaranteed reward. What is promised is the blessing that comes with walking in obedience and discovering the joy of giving."

It is real simple, Josh. Show us the tithe (he says it is 10% which it isn't) being taught in the NT and if you do not give 10% to the Body of Christ then you are in sin. NT passages only...IN CONTEXT.

Eat your Wheaties because some of us here have spent a lot of time in study. We believe in generous giving to those who need it. Not necessarily to a church building.

So failing to tithe is a sin? Like adultery and fornication, and homosexuality, right?

You say:

"And when you listen to his messages, he explains that monetary blessing is not the goal, nor the guaranteed reward. "

You are like so many people who have sat in churches for so long, you believe that you have to interpret the words of the pastor, that he didn't really mean what he said. You can't even hear the words of your pastor correctly. He is saying that it is a good business deal, that you are purchasing God's protection. He is saying if you do not tithe, you will suffer financially, and thus, tithing means a net gain over not tithing. He most certainly is speaking of financial prosperity.

But part of the blame here, as this post points out, lays with Rick Warren. He introduced Ps. Robert Morris (I love the Ps. title) as a financial expert. Robert Morris is no financial expert. He actually teaches things that will hurt people financially, giving them false hope, that the key to prosperity is to giving 10% to your church.

I would be interested in how such teaching like this would be received in Countries where Christ isn't openly received such as the US. This type of theology is so appealing to those of us who have resources to practically get anything we want whenever we desire. Look we are so spoiled and greedy. Yes greedy. The Word teaches contentment right?Honestly for real. Let's teach on how we can get more and not even teach on the words of the Master which say lend hoping for nothing in return.

As I mentioned earlier, my posts were for those who had an ear to hear. I am sorry that you must attack my character and that of a pastor because of your disagreement. Speaking the truth in love(Eph. 4:15)is paramount. If you are correct, then your argument is made invalid because of the manner in which you argue.

What I mean by historical Christianity is orthodox, historical, Nicene Creed Christianity. I apologize for not being clear. You ask for proof of tithing in the New Testament, in Matthew 23:23, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone."

A little study also reveals that Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14. This is prior to the Law, therefore, tithing was prior to the Law.

If you disagree that not tithing is sinning, then enjoy the freedom of not having to tithe. However, I do believe that perhaps having the whole context of a man's teaching is paramount to understanding his beliefs. You hold to that interpretation for the Bible, should it not be implemented for all other areas? I am a little worried that you only ask for NT passages, as the whole of Scripture is equally inspired. Only the Law has passed, not the whole of the Old Testament.

As far as studying, I have no doubt that you study. Most likely far more than myself. I will concede that. However, sometimes the most studied people can miss the most obvious because of their lofty knowledge.

Anon 9:08 - at least this blog allows people to dissent and express contrary views. You are free to come here and disagree and say what you will, but expect to have to defend it. Josh did that, and good for him.

Jon, yes, Ken Ham teaches as truth that the earth is 6000 years old, and that those who disagree with him are hurting the cause of Christ.

I don't think the earth is 6000 years old. I don't know how old it is, and neither does Ken Ham.

Today Rick Warren began his preaching on finances, preaching his introductory message on financial fitness.

It does appear that he is following in Robert's footsteps, about there being a certain formula, a "God's way" of finances, that is 80-10-10. I'll continue to follow this and see what Warren teaches his peeps.

Seriously, if there are any Believers responding to this blog, it is very simple. The Bible teaches us to tithe - not anyone else. This is the root of all of WD's issues. That is clear to see. It is truly a 'money' issue for Tom Rich.

From the dawn of time, people make money the issue, again what the Bible says, Money is the root of all evil", and how true it is and so easy to see.

It is a basic Bible principle.

No, Dr. Brunson does not talk about money every service, and if you think he does, you are obviously not there/

Before Tom Rich posts his blog about it, we are proud to say that tithing is taught at FBC once a year. No, it is not Mac Brunson 'talking about money', it is the history of the Church.

So, it is here. The month of October is historically when, since the first brick was laid at First Baptist, that tithing is taught.

If you want the real truth, which Mr. Rich does not teach or want you to know, please do listen this month to the teaching that will occur at FBC. Not only about money, but time and your personal committment to God.

You can feed into all you want to what Mr. Rich blogs about. He is very clear that he 'wants to get under your skin'. That is why he does this.

But, again, if you have ever read the Bible, the teaching are clear and easy to understand.

Save your typing and your blood pressure. Just follow the scripture if you are a believer and if you are not a believer then ask Tom Rich to share the plan of Salvation with you instead of all this other jibber jabber (again what the Bible teaches us to do - share Christ).

Just think how many lives could be changed if this blog focused on the Bible and not so much jealous and hatred.

"As I mentioned earlier, my posts were for those who had an ear to hear. I am sorry that you must attack my character and that of a pastor because of your disagreement. Speaking the truth in love(Eph. 4:15)is paramount. If you are correct, then your argument is made invalid because of the manner in which you argue."

Josh, This is childish. You came on here claiming Morris was NOT teaching what we KNOW he is teaching. Now you want to resort to ad hominem because you do not want to analyze from scripture what you believe that has been taught by Morris. So, you come back the the tired, worn out, position that how things are said are not "loving". So, who decides what is the loving way? You? Warren? (In fact Warren used this all the time years back but he used the word "uncivil" for those who dared question him)

This is a favorite tactic from those who do not want to debate content.

"You ask for proof of tithing in the New Testament, in Matthew 23:23, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone."

So where is the 10%. What JEsus is saying here is they have become ridiculous about their tithing (notice it is not money but first fruits) and ignored the important things like Justice and mercy.

"A little study also reveals that Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14. This is prior to the Law, therefore, tithing was prior to the Law."

That was tithing a percentage of the booty from war. How do we get booty from war to tithe?

" I am a little worried that you only ask for NT passages, as the whole of Scripture is equally inspired. Only the Law has passed, not the whole of the Old Testament."

Tithing IS the Law of the OT.

First of all, tithing is different from giving. I won't go into why here. I asked for NT because what do you do with Gentiles who were not a part of the nation of Israel? They were not supporting the Temple. Must they learn the law in order to be saved? I think Paul covers that A LOT in the Nt. Where is the new storehouse? Obviously Christians were not using the Jewish Temple storehouse before the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. There are a ton of reasons the tithe system (which was 23 or so percent) is not valid for the New Covenant. In fact, one of the tithes was for the support of poor people. So asking the poor to tithe now actually goes against the law you guys are promoting!

You missed one passage where Peter obliges JEsus to pay the Temple tax and tells PEter to get the coin from the fish's mouth. Jesus says, The Sons are FREE. Go read it.

" As far as studying, I have no doubt that you study. Most likely far more than myself. I will concede that. However, sometimes the most studied people can miss the most obvious because of their lofty knowledge. "

I have no lofty knowledge. It is there for anyone who can read. The problem is we listen to those who NEED you to believe in a tithe because it is how they make their living. We must study to show ourselves approved. How is that lofty?

I find it interesting when one of the "loving" FBC Jax crowd comes here to make the 4-year old claims that that the blog is about jealousy and hatred. Can't you just feel the love!

And they like to use my name as many times as possible in their post, yet they don't post their name. They need to stop reading the blog as their pastor told them several months ago, but they can tear themselves away from it.

We'll keep bring the truth here, and you keep reading, FBC Jax staff member! Glad to have you as a reader!

Pardon me, I am not an FBC 'staff member'. I am a FBC Church member who has grown up there and have been very blessed by the love and teaching that is there. We were taught to 'love' and to 'tithe' and to 'win Jacksonville to Christ'. These are clearly Biblical and not anything else.

There is no problem at all in mentioning your name. It is very public.

Maybe I 'missed the sermon' in which you say Dr. Brunson 'told us not to read the blog', but, you know, that is clearly my choice, as is the blog yours.

I just think you can make a better choice and live for how God wants us to do. Think of all the lives you could touch !

I am a new reader to the blog. In reading several of the past few posts, obviously you tell FBC members the same thing, "your Pastor tells you not to read the blog", for you don't want to hear the truth, even though I'm sure you know it. Sounds like you try to get folks not to respond when they are telling the truth and you don't want to deal with it.

Take the time, which it sounds as if you have alot of it, and share Christ with these readers and quit stirring up the pot. You will be must more rewarded...and, yes, that is another Bible principle.

1) Churches seem overprotective.2) Teens’ and twentysomethings’ experience of Christianity is shallow.3) Churches come across as antagonistic to science.4) Young Christians’ church experiences related to sexuality are often simplistic, judgmental.5) They wrestle with the exclusive nature of Christianity.6) The church feels unfriendly to those who doubt.

Some of these issues are the very ones that WD has been addressing on this blog.

The kool-aid drinkers that leave comments here only add to the exodus.

"We were taught to 'love' and to 'tithe' and to 'win Jacksonville to Christ'. These are clearly Biblical and not anything else."

Since you brought up being taught to love, would you say your comments have been an example of that?

Please explain why 3 tithes are taught in the Old Testament (one for Levitical priests who were not allowed to own anything, one for the poor and one for mandatory religious festivals), but only one is taught for today?

Your pastor also teaches his congregation not to read this blog. Why are you disobeying him?

"There is no problem at all in mentioning your name. It is very public."

Do you happen to know why it is public?

That's because your pastor got one of his "members" who just happened to be a police office to trump up some charges so that he could force the IP to reveal his name so that he could serve he and his family with trespass papers.

7:10 am you say this blog should focus on the Bible. Maybe you need to because the Bible does not sayMoney is the root of all evil. It says the "love" of money is the root of all evil. It's I Timothy 6:10.

I was stuck watching James Robison's programme the other night (the remote fell on the floor and I was too lazy to get up and get so I could change the channel) and this Morris guy was on there. I thought something was "off" about him...well, both of them. I can't put my finger on it, but they're "off."

I believe what is "off" is the fact that these two men have lost their focus. When an abundance of money is more central to our message than the abundant grace of God in Christ, then we are off kilter.

A poor man blessed with the riches of God's grace is richer than a rich man bankrupt of the grace of God.

Someone mentioned "The Daniel Plan." I haven't read details yet on how they hook it up with the Bible, and it probably makes no sense to do so. BUT, I'm watching the videos, and except for some of the spiritual talk, I think it's good stuff.

Just recently I finished reading "Wheat Belly." Of course I wondered how can I get this very helpful message to people who don't read that type of book; they just go by some vague thing they hear at the doctor or on the news. Well, now I'm watching these videos and seeing how a good health message can get out to lots of people. Sure, it's kinda fuzzy how they can call it God's Plan or whatever-it's still gonna do some people good.

So these big pastors are like Oprah. People with a message want to get access to those huge congregations. How that's done-kickbacks, whatever advantage for the pastor, etc.-I don't know. Whether the church is supposed to be about improving your health; maybe not. But they are still doing some good, I think. Anyway, check it out.

10:57 You are exactly right. Either way - and the correct is "love"... this blog - Mr. Rich - is so much - if not totally - about money, love of money...whichever. Again,from the dawn of time, so much emphasis is put on money in Churches, especially when people have nothing else to complain about. It is the easiest thing to get people stirred up over.

10:52 Facts are facts of Mr. Rich's case. None the less when he started all this, it is a fact that his name would eventually be 'out' whether the way it occurred or not. We would all know at some point.

Yo Dawg, I think Josh kicked you to the curb, but at least he did it in "Jesus name." It might surprise you Dawg that a few of us poorly educated pastors, actually have degrees in education, business, psychology, economics, and the like. I would like to know how many degrees that you have before you tell me my place. Thanks Dawg, I am certainly not feeling your love. Peace out.

Hi David - sure, some pastors have real degrees outside of seminaries. But the mega church pastors we've looked at here on this blog don't, and they are not experts in business or science or finances.

Me? I have a bachelor degree in electrical engineering, and two master's degrees - one in engineering and an MBA, all from the Univesity of Florida. Working on a third master's degree in math and statistics.

What I am hearing is a lot of "Christians" who do not want to tithe. It is up to you whether you accept the word of GOd and it's truth. If you choose not to tithe, than fine, don't! One thing you must have missed, however, is the fact that you are not supposed to open your mouth to say discouraging words about men of God. You will bring a curse upon yourself.

This is embarrassing for Christianity; and no, I'm not talking about the teachings of Robert Morris. I'm talking about the comments aimed at belittling someone who believes he is doing the will of God. I come from a small, non-demoninational church in Idaho, and now attend Gateway in Dallas. I'll admit, it's a lot to take in, even gimmicky, but evidently, something is drawing the thousands to attend this church. While that doesn't inherently make it "good," it certainly is exposing many to the teachings of the Bible that would otherwise be less interested. You can see all types of backgrounds and stories among the attendees of Gateway, and regardless of their motivations for being there, it is an awesome sight to witness the worship and alignment in desire to help the community. If nothing else good ever comes from the efforts of Morris, he has done more than I, and most others, will ever do for the Kingdom in our lifetimes. He hasn't claimed to be perfect, and on many occassions has admitted to misunderstanding scripture, acknowledging his ignorance. I firmly believe that the messages of the Bible are dynamic and can be taught/understood in a variety of ways depending on the teacher and the audience.

Here's an idea: Instead of efforts to publicly tear him down, why not communicate directly with Morris about your feelings towards his teachings? Or would you rather retain your tabloid-esque publication here?

I realize these comments are a year old, but I came across this site while looking for Robert Morris' salary and thought I'd comment from another perspective. Thanks Josh for the facts you posted.

I am a current member of Gateway Church and hold leadership positions there. Since I've been at Gateway going on six years now, I've heard this message, or parts of it, many times. I loved it the first time I heard it and can honestly say I was "Blessed" by it. However, in Robert's last teaching of it, I can say I was very bothered by it because a large part of it taught that Christ's body who don't tithe place themselves under a curse and their finances CANNOT be blessed under any circumstances. It seemed to be more rooted in condemnation than the first time I heard it. In my leadership positions, I've had an occasional person come to me feeling distraught because they feared "the curse" and ended up tithing under fear, not from the wellsprings or cheerfulness of their hearts as we are told in Corinthians.Yes, we are a very giving church, but it is rarely, if ever, mentioned that Southlake and it's surrounding areas are some of the wealthiest communities in America.

I NEVER bash Robert to the people who come to me. I never share my true feelings that I too felt condemned by this message. What I do point out is that God looks at the heart, not the amount given. When Christ referred to the widow's mite, He pointed out her heart in giving, not the amount. Likewise, when the alabaster box was broken and Jesus' feet were anointed by the oil, was Jesus pointing out how much oil was spilled out or was He pointing out the heart in this sacrifice? I know Robert loves the Lord and he loves the people of Gateway,that I have never doubted, but nevertheless, I do not tithe. I make a very good income and each time I give I ask the Lord for a number and that's what I give. He is always faithful to give me an amount. It is not always to Gateway Church. It may be to an individual or a ministry. Don't get me wrong, our church leaders do deserve to be provided for and should be met by the church members as Paul teaches, but I wonder, how do people from underground churches in China tithe? What about poor, tribal regions of Africa who don't have a currency? They have no finances in order to be "blessed".It seems that if "The Blessed Life" is God's standard for one, it should be for all. "The Blessed Life" just cannot be applied across the board as long as you're talking about money.

Why has Robert Morris been friends with exbillionaire/murder Cullen T Davis for over 32 years? I think Robert Morris has always loved $ from day one. I can't tell you how many sermons I heard at the church about $$ while I use to attend. I have become more blessed since we don't give our 10% to that $$ hungry church. I give when and where the Lord leads because I have money to do that now. I pray that Robert Morris will truely find Jesus.

Are you the accuser of the brother because I thought that was Satan's job.Have you read what the bible says about tithing? If you have a problem with God blessing His people I guess a lot of the bible bugs you.Are you making a living putting down pastors? You seem worse than the people you are complaining about. I guess God Will judge us ALL in the end.

No matter what everybody says, if you are a believer in the Word of God you will tithe. As for people around here and other forums hating Robert Morris, it's completely normal in today's society for people to hate a person that spreads truthful teachings.The concept of verifying the validity of one's words is very simple: you open your Bible, you read it and compare with the teachings. Now the issue is that less and less people are reading the Word of God therefore have no knowledge and it is impossible for them to compare correctly any teaching, accepting some pleasing words but nothing "too much" or "too intruding" on one's life. Be blessed and read the Word of God.

To adequately judge a church or a man you need to spend time with them. I challenge you to spend a week or more at Gateway church where Robert Morris is the pastor. See how children are being taught the word, adults and teenagers are receiving freedom, people are worshiping Jesus. The true measure of a church and a pastor is are lives being changed, people following Christ, and families being blessed. If Christians would stop worrying about making other Christians better or act the way you think they should act and start a discipleship program or relationship, the world would want what we have. Jesus said there is plenty of room at my fathers house but we are not filling it because we are worried about other Christians. Get the lost saved and discipled.

Also you may not know in practicing what he preaches, since the Blessed Life was Roberts first book, every penny goes to Gateway not him. (First fruits).

To those of you who are bashing the principles in "The Blessed Life", which are straight from Malachi and other books in the Bible, my guess is you have not practiced them. God says "test me in this". Go ahead. Tithe for 3 months and see what happens. And by tithe, I mean 10% to your local church. Tithing changed my life... and you can't dispute that.

Although I applaud you on this topic of Rick Warren, I do think you go way overboard and become unrealistic on your criticism of so called "experts". You make it out like a person can never know what he is talking about unless he has taken an "expert" class from a biased university willing to give him a degree. Take science for instance. Your criticism of Ken Ham is unfounded. He is an "expert" in his field as a teacher and he is surrounded by many "expert" scientist who are heavily involved in scientific research and development around the world. Dr. Andrew Snelling is just one of the many experts who are active in research and development and testing. Snelling is one of the many scientists who are on Answers IN Genesis's team who are "boots on the ground" scientist. Not just simple academics in a classroom. But because you don't like his conclusions about what the bible actually says, you mock his "expert" credentials. You can be an expert on anything if you are willing to put your time in to learn. The idea that knowledge is only gained at a university and with a degree behind your name is to go along with an elitist/ignorant mindset that doesn't realize that much of what our kids are being taught on the university level is nothing more than indoctrination of a world view and has little to do with facts and truth. The area of "real sciences" is a perfect example of all kinds of people with fancy degrees who haven't a clue about being in touch with real research and development. They only regurgitate information. The problem in Christianity is that the average person has become too lazy in learning how to properly study his/her Bible and leaves it up to the "experts" to tell us what to believe all the time. I appreciate your calling out of Rick Warren. If he is this blind as to not be able to discern a person like Robert Morris then he has no credibility in my eyes.

I just attended Robert Morris' church. He quoted Matthew 23:23 as a proof of Jesus mandating giving 10% minimum to a local church business. READ THE SCRIPTURE: Read all of Matthew 23. JESUS IS TALKING TO SCRIBES/PHARISEES--"CHURCH LEADERSHIP". Woe to you Church Leaders who misquote the scripture in order to benefit, even if you think you are helping people. Bill Gates does not tythe. Where is the financial curse? I have tythed with no financial reward, but the spiritual reward is amazing.

Where is the negative reaction to Ps. Morris' statement that he checks on people's tything records? What is he doing playing God's collection agent, bullying people into helping him buy a new million dollar estate, a couple of porshes, etc. JESUS COMMENDED THE WIDOW WHO GAVE HER TWO "MITES" TO THE CHURCH, NOT THE CHURCH STAFF WHO LINED THEIR POCKETS WITH IT'S WEALTH.

Reading this has been very discouraging. Don't get me wrong- I am all for using scripture to reprove and correct fallacies- but what I see here seems to only demonstrate why the church in America is falling apart- we are more focused on attacking people who preach a theology different than ours that we miss the point of our mission.

If we cannot agree on something- maybe we should stop attacking each other and simply part ways. Sure we can disagree- but we agree on one thing and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am not going to even delve into the opinions and thoughts presented in this article or comments, but personally- I think that everyone is probably off on some level and we are definitely not demonstrating the love of God by being so accusatory. If someone preaches that God wants to bless people for following what He says in the Bible (NT or OT- its ALL inspired and ALL applicable- including the law*)that is great! If someone doesnt feel led to preach that manner- great! Is Jesus being proclaimed as the true way for salvation? If yes BE GRATEFUL! I think that many of us (and I am definitely included in this) presume upon how the statements and promises in the Word of God really are based off of OUR observations of how we see them fulfilled or the lack thereof. Thats dangerous because if our observations or beliefs, no matter how we define/relate/understand/think them- if they are not discerned through a relationship with Christ- then they are definitely going to be off. Period.

In closing- let me clear up that I am NOT a proponant of the prosperity Gospel. I used to be but praise be to God for showing me that I was using Him as a means to an end. Does God want to bless me? Yes. Will He bless me? Yes. The Health, Wealth, and Prosperity Gospel gives a false hope that God will do what I want if I do XYZ. I don't believe that. However- I do believe in the Health, Wealth, and Prosperity OF the Gospel. I believe that if I seek to know and follow Christ, and if I desire to serve Him- then my life will be blessed. How- One day in Glory I will know all He gave, but the point is that He blesses me out of the Grace of the sacrifice of His Son and NOT out of the byproduct of me giving Him what He already owns.

Do I tithe? Yes, but the point of tithing (for ME) is that it is a chance for me to agree with God and to be a part of His work- which in the end should be a blessing on its own.

*I believe that the law presented in the OT is still applicable and inspired. I know we are not under the law and I would never seek to see someone placed under it. However- that is neither here nor there as it is not the point of this article. That is just my OPINION based on what I read from the Word of God. If I be wrong- God correct me.

PS: There was one comment about money being the root of all evil. If we check and read the verse again- its the LOVE of money that is the root of all sorts of evil (it does say the LOVE of money in many if not all english versions. The greek NT declares that the love of it is the root of all sorts of evil)

I shiver reading these attacks on others! I am a Baptist -- so much of what is written here sounds just like many Baptists I've encountered. Where is the right to be different...to disagree..to love others. I accidentally found this website looking for something else about Robert Morris. It won't be one I'll bookmark!

When you give money to a church you are not giving it to God. These prosperity teaching pastors are not God. If you want to tithe then tithe. If you do not want to tithe then do not tithe. Personally, I give to the homeless and other needy persons I come upon. I am not cursed and I am not rich. I have love and compassion for others so I do what I can personally to help them. Jesus said it simply "Love God, Love one another" No mention of money.

Just so you know I go to Robert Morris's Church, THEY HAVE NEVER EVEN PASSED AN OFFERING PLATE.. I went there for a year before I became a member and tithe to my home church. Robert Morris teaches the bible brilliantly.. HE TEACHES ON GIVING ONCE AT YEAR AT GATEWAY...ALL WE GET IS SOLID TEACHING AND THE MINISTRIES ARE INCREDIBLE! haha

Today I heard Robert Morris teach that you cannot fulfill your "destiny," that is, the God spoken "prophecy" over your life -if you fail to tithe. It sounds like extortion. I've never heard any pastor teach comprehensively on tithing...its origin, the OT priesthood, the purpose of the tithe,etc. Pastors typically default to the Malachi scripture or the Melchizedek story to prop up their doctrine of tithing. In the NT,1 Cor 9:7 states, "As every man purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or out of compulsion; for God loveth the cheerful giver. We are under a New Covenant. For this reason. Based on what I heard from Robert Morris, his teaching on tithing or blessing doesn't line up with scripture. Hebrews:8:13 In that He saith, a new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away (speaking of the OT law and the priesthood). Additionally in Matthew 23, Jesus warns about teachers of the law. He was speaking of Scribes and Pharisees but what about our current Pastors who put believers under the yoke of OT law?? I suggest any believer become very familiar with Matthew 23 and the book of Hebrews.

Today I heard Robert Morris teach that you cannot fulfill your "destiny," that is, the God spoken "prophecy" over your life -if you fail to tithe. It sounds like extortion. I've never heard any pastor teach comprehensively on tithing...its origin, the OT priesthood, the purpose of the tithe,etc. Pastors typically default to the Malachi scripture or the Melchizedek story to prop up their doctrine of tithing. In the NT,1 Cor 9:7 states, "As every man purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or out of compulsion; for God loveth the cheerful giver. We are under a New Covenant. For this reason. Based on what I heard from Robert Morris, his teaching on tithing or blessing doesn't line up with scripture. Hebrews:8:13 In that He saith, a new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away (speaking of the OT law and the priesthood). Additionally in Matthew 23, Jesus warns about teachers of the law. He was speaking of Scribes and Pharisees but what about our current Pastors who put believers under the yoke of OT law?? I suggest any believer become very familiar with Matthew 23 and the book of Hebrews.

What do you do when your pastor and the other leaders of the church show Morris' 'financial fear tactics' to the entire congregation on a white board during Sunday morning church service? Well. There was nothing I could do except get up and walk out. I've never felt 'afraid' in church until then. He has played them several more times. I've tried to just ignore that portion of service, but it's difficult. Sadly, my husband questioned the church on their facebook page and was told that the pastor has a book... written by Morris... that he should find very helpful in understanding the 10% tithing issue and how it is a must for any christian to have their money blessed. I'm thinking the sinners are going to love that one. Pay 10% of their drug money and the rest will be smoked, snorted, or injected with a blessing from God.... WHAT a CROCK!

Tho I may not be a big fan of Pastor Rick Warren But he still is a good Pentecostal Preacher and we should read between the lines before we Judge him or swift Judgment is coming to you weather you like it or not!Pastor Robert Morris again may not be on the top of mine or other Pentecostals, he has a message that if you listen closely will help save you souls. To pray for the Beloved of God is paramount instead of doggedly biting and devouring them (Again Judgment will run you down so very fast !) In all of Christendom The Pentecostal Message is of the Highest Order in God's Mind NOW ! Why as we read in the Bible (KJV) the Books of Joel 2:28-32, Isaiah 28:9-13, And The Books of Acts 2:1-13, 1st Corinthians 12,13,>14<And This as was in Acts 2ff so today this Move will only grow until all the earth will be full of the glory of God! Numbers 14:21! The Baptists are full of sin and sickness, alcoholics, porno, adulterer's And the same goes for the rest of the fundamental crowd and evangels! Your blog constantly attacks the Pentecostals (Tho the Fastest growing Move of God on the Face of the Earth is the Pentecostal Work of Christ!)Your churches are dying and until you repent of your constant rancor and dog gone prone to run the Holy Spirit as the Pharisees of old tried only trouble and Hell will await you! Sorrowfully Mr. Kerry Heseltine

About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"