Hello everyone! I understand that the thread's title sounds very generic and non-original, so instead I'll just cut straight to the point;

It's no secret that the WoW PvP community has been declining more and more each year with every new expansion. As saddening as this is, I want to believe there is still some hope for redemption left. I feel like the biggest problem with Blizzard (when it comes to WoW, at least) is that its Developers often don't know what the game needs in order to implement the right changes. In other words, they need some guidance. I happened to come across 3 very exciting videos talking about WoW PvP which exactly state the game's biggest problems as well as suggesting very simple solutions to them. Those are the 3 videos (be warned though, as they are quite lengthy);

1. (15 minutes)

2. (18:30 minutes, skip to 0:38)

3. (19:50 minutes, skip to 1:01)

I personally agree with what was said in these videos (especially Tosan's video) and I honestly believe that they should get more views or get listened to by more people.

What are your opinions regarding the facts that they state and their suggested solutions?

EDIT: I will be making some small corrections from time to time for some small improvements.

EDIT 2: Just to clarify some extra things about how I would picture rewards available through Solo Queue and Premade 3v3 in this given scenario.

- Titles would only be given through Premade 3v3. At least the Glad/R1 ones. Then, more rewards should be added. Maybe more Enchants/Tabards/Cloaks/Elite Sets. Something like what Lord Jimjim proposed, but impemented like this; Casual PvP set has color X. 2k Elite set has color Y. 2.4k Elite Set has color Z, and maybe some more extra details. Maybe Heirlooms as well?

- In order to encourage people to play Solo Queue, some smaller rewards could be added. Like maybe some exclusive PvP Glyphs (which modify the visual effects of some abilities or huge cds to make you stand out)? Pets? Maybe a different Tabard? Different Cloak? Diferent, less-significant titles? Heck, even stuff like Order Hall Followers could be ok. Anything that would be cool to pursue, but wouldn't be "greater of value" than what you would get awarded from the Premade 3v3.

And boom, there you have it. More rewards, more "reason" per se to PvP, more attraction towards new players, way more rewards and incentives, and the coexistence of Solo Queue and Premade 3v3 without one completely negating or shutting down the other.

And for those of you who say that no voice 3v3 would be boring and everyone would rage and whatnot, this could at least be reduced a bit by implementing an in-game Battle.net voice call system which doesn't require you to have the other people in your friend list in order to forward the call.

The reintroduction of Elite Weapons could also be an amazing idea, but they should implement more than just 1 of each. 2k, 2.2k, 2.4k weapons (and so on) could be different, with more and more detail added each time (like Lionheart Executioner from Blacksmithing). They could also maybe vary in color? And then the highest tier Elite Weapons would be of a totally different aspect.

Edited by Hollowinside, 03 September 2017 - 09:47 AM.

2

Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

But why tho? Why do you think that? Tosan adressed this very accurately, I think. If anything, it would be a good replacement for the PvP section of LFG wouldn't it?

EDIT: Some extra clarification about me. I am not a #BringSoloQ guy, but I am starting to think that even something as trivial and... obnoxious(?) as Solo Queue could be an overall improvement to the game's PvP part.

Edited by Hollowinside, 28 August 2017 - 12:09 PM.

0

Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

But why tho? Why do you think that? Tosan adressed this very accurately, I think. If anything, it would be a good replacement for the PvP section of LFG wouldn't it?

most of player base would be queing soloq since its alot easier to find people (however games would be much less intense due to fact that ure playing with random players).

And it would just be unfair to match premade 3v3 players against soloq players so it would have to be a seperate bracket altogether.

Eventually everyone would just start playing soloq and premade 3v3 would die same as every other game with a soloq system (league/cs/sc2/overwatch etc). You can even take this from bunch of popular private servers that added soloq 3s literally died

most of player base would be queing soloq since its alot easier to find people (however games would be much less intense due to fact that ure playing with random players).

And it would just be unfair to match premade 3v3 players against soloq players so it would have to be a seperate bracket altogether.

Eventually everyone would just start playing soloq and premade 3v3 would die same as every other game with a soloq system (league/cs/sc2/overwatch etc). You can even take this from bunch of popular private servers that added soloq 3s literally died

A much better response. Yes, Solo Queue would indeed make it a lot easier for everyone to find people to play with, but that doesn't mean it would reduce the incentive to play, given the fact that they could perhaps add different type of rewards for when queueing as Solo and when queueing as a team. If they were to make Solo Queue and Premade 3v3 different brackets, that is.

Imo, the Premade 3v3 should have either more, or better rewards. At the end of the day, it's an mmo rpg. It's a team-based online game, so the final frontier for PvP should always be to find people with whom you wanna queue with and achieve the maximum of what you can achieve.

I think that Private Servers had a good idea, just not properly put into practice.

If solo-queue only awarded gladiator, but team-queue still awarded rank one, there would be incentive for both.

OP, post this on the WoW arena forums, AJ is dead as hell

Yes, this is what I am talking about. Or add different rewards between those 2 brackets. But I still feel like the Premade 3v3 should be the final frontier of the PvP scheme.

EDIT: I would post it on the WoW Arena Forums as well, but the people who frequent the threads that are created there are (usually/most of the times) of little to no help at all. Believe it or not, I believe AJ would be a better place to post this. Fewer people for sure, yeah, but I'd value way more the quality of the replies I would get from here. Plus, the EU WoW Forums are kinda dead when compared to those of NA. I guess someone from the NA should post it on the forums, probably. I hope someone will.

Edited by Hollowinside, 28 August 2017 - 02:28 PM.

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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

You know what they're might as well add solo q. No I don't think it will save pvp. No I don't think it will help people get ratings with their skill. They might as well implement it because pvp is dead. They removed all the real rewards from pvp, they removed any incentive to push ratings, they already made pvp into the most casual, noob friendly, unrewarding mini game that wow has to offer. So they might as well kill arena with the addition of solo q. If solo q gets added then for 90% of the pvp community that will be their only form of arena. Why wait for 3 people to be online to que for arena when you can just jump into solo q? And if they added rewards for solo q, what's the point in anyone trying to do 3s teamed if they are already 2k in solo q. 3v3 teams will just be populated with people like us who actually give/gave 2 shits about arena and everyone else will just be getting dumber in solo q with the lack of communication of 3 randos.

You know what they're might as well add solo q. No I don't think it will save pvp. No I don't think it will help people get ratings with their skill. They might as well implement it because pvp is dead. They removed all the real rewards from pvp, they removed any incentive to push ratings, they already made pvp into the most casual, noob friendly, unrewarding mini game that wow has to offer. So they might as well kill arena with the addition of solo q. If solo q gets added then for 90% of the pvp community that will be their only form of arena. Why wait for 3 people to be online to que for arena when you can just jump into solo q? And if they added rewards for solo q, what's the point in anyone trying to do 3s teamed if they are already 2k in solo q. 3v3 teams will just be populated with people like us who actually give/gave 2 shits about arena and everyone else will just be getting dumber in solo q with the lack of communication of 3 randos.

Just add it and kill any incentive for serious 3s

Uhm... Not quite sure what you are on about here. The reason PvP is in this awful state is not because they "removed all the real rewards from PvP and all incentives". If anything, you have way more real rewards to chase after atm than ever before, and there should honestly be even more.

Looking back at TBC and WotLK, higher rating would unlock essential gear parts (seriously, how can this be deemed as a "real" reward?) and T2 weapons. Then in Cata they added Elite Sets. In MoP they added Enchants, Tabards, and Cloaks. Now you have all of these things available. You can chase after titles, glad mounts, enchants, cloaks, tabards, Elite sets. So basically everything that used to exist, but more.

Now to answer you other questions about why would anyone wait for 2 other people to come online if they can just queue Solo, well, I already explained it 2 times in my previous comments. Because Premade 3v3 and Solo Queue could have different kind of rewards, with the Premade 3v3 bracket being the (slightly) most rewarding. This way people who have no partners to queue with can chase after the rewards of Solo queue until eventually finding someone they'd want to play with.

Edited by Hollowinside, 28 August 2017 - 04:42 PM.

0

Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

most of player base would be queing soloq since its alot easier to find people (however games would be much less intense due to fact that ure playing with random players).

And it would just be unfair to match premade 3v3 players against soloq players so it would have to be a seperate bracket altogether.

Eventually everyone would just start playing soloq and premade 3v3 would die same as every other game with a soloq system (league/cs/sc2/overwatch etc). You can even take this from bunch of popular private servers that added soloq 3s literally died

WHY would you have separate bracket for premade teams? Ofc they will have an advantage over those who are queuing solo, like in every other fucking PvP game in the world, but why does that sound like a problem to you? When you are bored you can queue solo until 2.2 - 2.4 rating and if you want to go for that Gladiator or Rank 1 title you will have to queue with a premade team. (plus they can use the voice coms system they already have in Overwatch for soloqueue groups so that they have a better chance.)

But as Tosan said (if you even watched his video) by queuing solo queue it is a much better and much easier way to find actual teammates for premade later on, because you have already tried them, instead of sitting in the shitty LFG system they have now for 1 hour just to get trolled from a fucking retard that bought his Gladiator title from a boosting site.

Just stfu with your nonsense arguments that "soloqueue is bad" and "soloqueue will kill PvP" IT CANNOT GET ANY LOWER YOU FUCKING RETARDS! JUST LET THEM TRY IT! EVERY OTHER FUCKING PVP GAME IN THE WORLD USES IT.

WHY would you have separate bracket for premade teams? Ofc they will have an advantage over those who are queuing solo, like in every other fucking PvP game in the world, but why does that sound like a problem to you? When you are bored you can queue solo until 2.2 - 2.4 rating and if you want to go for that Gladiator or Rank 1 title you will have to queue with a premade team. (plus they can use the voice coms system they already have in Overwatch for soloqueue groups so that they have a better chance.)

But as Tosan said (if you even watched his video) by queuing solo queue it is a much better and much easier way to find actual teammates for premade later on, because you have already tried them, instead of sitting in the shitty LFG system they have now for 1 hour just to get trolled from a fucking retard that bought his Gladiator title from a boosting site.

Just stfu with your nonsense arguments that "soloqueue is bad" and "soloqueue will kill PvP" IT CANNOT GET ANY LOWER YOU FUCKING RETARDS! JUST LET THEM TRY IT! EVERY OTHER FUCKING PVP GAME IN THE WORLD USES IT.

While I greatly value the fact that you spent time to explain your thoughts in detail, I do not appreciate the language you are using against Refren. Can't we all just normally discuss something, for once?

Edited by Hollowinside, 28 August 2017 - 10:24 PM.

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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

soloq would be very unfair because some classes only work in very certains comps while others work in basically every single one. how would you balance this?

Tosan mentioned this in his video. He basically said that Blizz could put some parameters as to what your spec can be matched with, so you won't see kappacino comps and so on. I mean, Blizzard could actually do this. Maybe they could implement such things on the PTR and then decide if they want it to go live or not. I mean, after all that's what PTR is there for isn't it?

EDIT: On the first video I linked, you can hear his opinion at 7:37.

Edited by Hollowinside, 28 August 2017 - 10:38 PM.

0

Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

Uhm... Not quite sure what you are on about here. The reason PvP is in this awful state is not because they "removed all the real rewards from PvP and all incentives". If anything, you have way more real rewards to chase after atm than ever before, and there should honestly be even more.
Looking back at TBC and WotLK, higher rating would unlock essential gear parts (seriously, how can this be deemed as a "real" reward?) and T2 weapons. Then in Cata they added Elite Sets. In MoP they added Enchants, Tabards, and Cloaks. Now you have all of these things available. You can chase after titles, glad mounts, enchants, cloaks, tabards, Elite sets. So basically everything that used to exist, but more.
Now to answer you other questions about why would anyone wait for 2 other people to come online if they can just queue Solo, well, I already explained it 2 times in my previous comments. Because Premade 3v3 and Solo Queue could have different kind of rewards, with the Premade 3v3 bracket being the (slightly) most rewarding. This way people who have no partners to queue with can chase after the rewards of Solo queue until eventually finding someone they'd want to play with.

Never said rewards are why pvp is in an awful state. Never even implied it. Pvp is in an awful state because the whole structure of the game is in an awful state. Just said this as a feature of pvp that would attract people to pvp. And I can tell wod and legion has done you no favors in terms of your thought process if you think gear should just be considered an "essential" item. It's been said a million times before but seriously it's an mmo, the reward for doing good things is gear, and if you can't do those good things then you don't get gear. That's what made arena fun was hitting those benchmark ratings and going to buy those shoulders for the first time that made you feel fucking great and you went to go show them off in bgs by fucking shitting on kids. THAT was a real mmo and that was real fun.

Now I'm not saying make gear matter more in pvp, because the point that the game is now with everyone having the same item level no matter what they do, that would be awful. The problem is that it got to the point where gear SHOULDNT matter. What kind of mmo fucks itself so hard that it got to the point where pvp gear didn't matter in pvp.

Again when you lose that incentive it doesn't make it fun anymore. A piece of gear from hitting a certain rating or even from raiding should feel like a fucking paycheck from work, you get to see all your hardwork come to something for being good at something so you take it out and get something nice to show off while there are retards all around you looking at your shit and wanting to have that too. Now everyone gets everything whether they are 2800 or hit a good roll collecting fucking flowers.

So yeah I think they should just add solo and get it over with to keep the casuals busy mindlessly smashing their keys not worrying about communicating and just being fucking dumb. And don't think it's going to be fun for you just because you climbed rating and you got out of the rating of idiots smashing chaos strike. Get to the higher ratings and it's going to have the toxic cheating twats that is in 3s now magnified. Someone recognize your name and they don't like you? Bet they will int. Just shit on a guy the game before now he is on your team and salty? Bet he won't heal you. People will be queuing into each other and have coms so it's your rando team vs. a premade 3v3 team. Or they will que into each other then win trade . Except now win trading will directly impact you because now YOU lose points too.

I could go on and on about how bad of idea it is and how it will not help pvp one bit. But I still think they should just add it anyway, give casual something to drool at and waste time on while they wait for raids.

Never said rewards are why pvp is in an awful state. Never even implied it. Pvp is in an awful state because the whole structure of the game is in an awful state. Just said this as a feature of pvp that would attract people to pvp. And I can tell wod and legion has done you no favors in terms of your thought process if you think gear should just be considered an "essential" item. It's been said a million times before but seriously it's an mmo, the reward for doing good things is gear, and if you can't do those good things then you don't get gear. That's what made arena fun was hitting those benchmark ratings and going to buy those shoulders for the first time that made you feel fucking great and you went to go show them off in bgs by fucking shitting on kids. THAT was a real mmo and that was real fun.

Now I'm not saying make gear matter more in pvp, because the point that the game is now with everyone having the same item level no matter what they do, that would be awful. The problem is that it got to the point where gear SHOULDNT matter. What kind of mmo fucks itself so hard that it got to the point where pvp gear didn't matter in pvp.

Again when you lose that incentive it doesn't make it fun anymore. A piece of gear from hitting a certain rating or even from raiding should feel like a fucking paycheck from work, you get to see all your hardwork come to something for being good at something so you take it out and get something nice to show off while there are retards all around you looking at your shit and wanting to have that too. Now everyone gets everything whether they are 2800 or hit a good roll collecting fucking flowers.

So yeah I think they should just add solo and get it over with to keep the casuals busy mindlessly smashing their keys not worrying about communicating and just being fucking dumb. And don't think it's going to be fun for you just because you climbed rating and you got out of the rating of idiots smashing chaos strike. Get to the higher ratings and it's going to have the toxic cheating twats that is in 3s now magnified. Someone recognize your name and they don't like you? Bet they will int. Just shit on a guy the game before now he is on your team and salty? Bet he won't heal you. People will be queuing into each other and have coms so it's your rando team vs. a premade 3v3 team. Or they will que into each other then win trade . Except now win trading will directly impact you because now YOU lose points too.

I could go on and on about how bad of idea it is and how it will not help pvp one bit. But I still think they should just add it anyway, give casual something to drool at and waste time on while they wait for raids.

We're kinda drifting off topic here and I have already explained my personal opinion about PvP rewards in detail on a previous thread so not gonna do it again now since this is a different topic of discussion, but I will try to explain it again within a paragraph.

Let me tell you that I played before WoD and Legion and I don't really think those 2 expansions had any effect on my thought process. The simpler truth would be that I have a different opinion on how arena should unfold in front of the players. To me, arena wins are much more rewarding when they are equal, like this; you and your enemies all the have same gear/ilvl, now go step inside the ring and show them who's boss. Of course, the fact that the Rock/Paper/Scissors effect has always been a thing in WoW doesn't really promote this philosophy at all, but I think we can all agree that fundamentally, arena should be about skill. Not having ilvl advantages or outgearing your opponents. Also, on your first-time-bought-shouders example, I can pretty much assure you I felt exactly like that (and more) when I first got the 2.2k enchant in MoP and the 2.4 achievement + new enchantments + 2.6k Tabard/Cloak in WoD. Those are literally giving you 0 edge when it comes to stat advantage, but I much prefered it this way. Because I managed to get wherever I got to on equal terms with my opponents. Why do you and many other people think that there needs to be a stats increase over everybody else in order for a reward to feel "fucking great" or "like a paycheck" or "something nice to show off"? In all seriousness, I can relate to all those things you said with just earning cosmetic PvP rewards.

Now back to the topic, I think that the issues you mentioned about people wanting to lose on purpose when paired on your side and whatnot could actually be a huge issue if Solo Queue were to ever be introduced in WoW. Toxic people and cheaters exist in every game though, that wouldn't be just WoW. The simplest solution would be for Blizzard to either increase their awareness of such people, I guess. But since we already have those in the actual ladder I don't see how the addition of an extra bracket make this that much of a bigger problem. Blizzard just needs to pay more attention to actively punish them.

Edited by Hollowinside, 29 August 2017 - 12:23 AM.

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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

there are two horrifically large issues with wow pvp currently - pvp gameplay is depressingly boring as fuck due to pruning + class design being overwhelmingly centred around raiding at the expense of all other aspects of the game, and the reward structure is trash for people who don't have the skill/social circles to get gladiator/rank 1 every season

i'm confused why people think adding the ability to solo queue for arenas would solve either of these issues - or are we presuming that there are hordes and hordes of people desperate to experience legion pvp in all its 4 button pve rotation idiot proof glory, and the only thing holding them back from diving right in and propping up the dead ladder is that they are too scared/socially awkward to find people to queue with?

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 29 August 2017 - 12:44 AM.

2

No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world

We're kinda drifting off topic here and I have already explained my personal opinion about PvP rewards in detail on a previous thread so not gonna do it again now since this is a different topic of discussion, but I will try to explain it again within a paragraph.

Let tell you that I played before WoD and Legion and I don't really think those 2 expansions had any effect on my thought process. The simpler truth would be that I have a different opinion on how arena should unfold in front of the players. To me, arena wins are much more rewarding when they are equal, like this; you and your enemies all the have same gear/ilvl, now go step inside the ring and show them who's boss. Of course, the fact that the Rock/Paper/Scissors effect has always been a thing in WoW doesn't really promote this philosophy at all, but I think we can all agree that fundamentally, arena should be about skill. Not having ilvl advantages or outgearing your opponents. Also, on your first-time-bought-shouders example, I can pretty much assure you I felt exactly like that (and more) when I first got the 2.2k enchant in MoP and the 2.4 achievement + new enchantments + 2.6k Tabard/Cloak in WoD. Those are literally giving you 0 edge when it comes to stat advantage, but I much prefered it this way. Because I managed to get wherever I got to on equal terms with my opponents. Why do you and many other people think that there needs to be a stats increase over everybody else in order for a reward to feel "fucking great" or "like a paycheck" or "something nice to show off"? In all seriousness, I can relate to all those things you said with just earning cosmetic PvP rewards.

Now back to the topic, I think that the issues you mentioned about people wanting to lose on purpose when paired on your side and whatnot could actually be a huge issue if Solo Queue were to ever be introduced in WoW. Toxic people and cheaters exist in every game though, that wouldn't be just WoW. The simplest solution would be for Blizzard to either increase their awareness of such people, I guess. But since we already have those in the actual ladder I don't see how the addition of an extra bracket make this that much of a bigger problem. Blizzard just needs to pay more attention to actively punish them.

Idk man if you got your first 2.2k in mop then maybe you just dont know what it felt like back then. But you answer your question on why would a new bracket add these problems, it would make them so...so much worse for higher ratings. Think about win trading now. To win trade now you need to have 6 people or at the very least 3 people in on it multiboxing. Waiting for the right time to que then feed. Well in solo que take those 6 people or those 3 people for example in the new bracket. They now have 6 people all queing at the same time to achieve what they want instead of just 2 teams. This makes it CAKE for them. And for the toxic people, they will be worse too. In league if someone makes a mistake its harder to be toxic because games are 30mins to an hour long so its easier just to say "Hey man dont do that again just do X". Well in wow arena if you fuck up its the game which could literally last 5 seconds so the flame will be REAL.

Only have to look at AT to see that both Solo Queue and 3v3 work fine in tandem; because the preference for many players pushing is always going to be a premade. I was playing FFXIV for a while for PvP and whilst it was pretty bad, the only reason I even tried it was because it had Solo Q, but I preferred premade queue because of healer roulette.