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Weeks later in the Alaskan region, a huge UFO as described in the JAL 1628 incident was reported by an Air Force KC-135 in the general area. The next day, Alaska Airlines Flt 53 encountered and reported a UFO.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

That sounds good. How about we examine details of Japan 1628?

The gigantic UFO following the B-747 was confirmed by ground-based radar.

Weeks later in the Alaskan region, a huge UFO as described in the JAL 1628 incident was reported by an Air Force KC-135 in the general area. The next day, Alaska Airlines Flt 53 encountered and reported a UFO.

At the time the UFO incident began near Ft. Yukon, the JAL airliner was flying south in twilight conditions so that an extremely bright Jupiter (-2.6 magnitude) would have been visible on the pilot's left-hand side, where he first reported seeing the UFO, according to Klass. Jupiter was only 10 degrees above the horizon, making it appear to the pilot to be at roughly his own 35,000 ft. altitude. Mars, slightly lower on the horizon, was about 20 degrees to the right of Jupiter but not as bright....Although the very bright Jupiter, and less bright Mars, had to be visible to JAL Capt. Kenjyu Terauchi, the pilot never once reported seeing either -- only a UFO
Many of the colorful details of the incident carried by the news media, largely based on the six-week-old recollections of the pilot of JAL Flight 1628, are contradicted by a transcript of radio messages from the pilot to FAA controllers while the incident was in progress. For example, news media accounts quoting the 747 pilot said that when he executed a 360 degree turn, the UFO had followed him around the turn. But this claim is contrary to what the pilot told FAA controllers at the time.

Looks to have been fairly soundly debunked.
At the time the UFO incident began near Ft. Yukon, the JAL airliner was flying south in twilight conditions so that an extremely bright Jupiter (-2.6 magnitude) would have been visible on the pilot's left-hand side, where he first reported seeing the UFO, according to Klass. Jupiter was only 10 degrees above the horizon, making it appear to the pilot to be at roughly his own 35,000 ft. altitude. Mars, slightly lower on the horizon, was about 20 degrees to the right of Jupiter but not as bright....Although the very bright Jupiter, and less bright Mars, had to be visible to JAL Capt. Kenjyu Terauchi, the pilot never once reported seeing either -- only a UFO
Many of the colorful details of the incident carried by the news media, largely based on the six-week-old recollections of the pilot of JAL Flight 1628, are contradicted by a transcript of radio messages from the pilot to FAA controllers while the incident was in progress. For example, news media accounts quoting the 747 pilot said that when he executed a 360 degree turn, the UFO had followed him around the turn. But this claim is contrary to what the pilot told FAA controllers at the time. http://badufos.blogspot.co.uk/2014/0...arvellous.html

Phil Klass has been known to present false information in regards to UFOs and in the case of JAL 1628, Phil Klass and CSICOP were made a laughing stock when the real facts were revealed.

I often warn steptics to do their homework before they present their responses to me because I have been known to set the record straight due to the tons of declassified UFO documents that I have on hand, much of which were provided by the USAF. Now, let's take a look at what happened to Phil Klass and CSICOP in regard to JAL 1628.

Quote:

CSICOP Leaps Into The Breach

The initial press stories in January treated this sighting as real news. No one contradicted the captain when he made his "outlandish" claims, the most outlandish being that he was followed by a UFO larger than his 747 jumbo jet. The press was yearning for an explanation, but there was none to be had as long as the FAA was still investigating. It was at this point that CSICOP decided it was necessary to fill the vacuum. On the 22nd of January CSICOP published a press release entitled "UFO Mystery Solved" [14]. The cover letter of the press release announced the "findings of the (CSICOP) investigation into the Japan Air Lines Flight 1628 UFO incident of November 18, 1986." The release itself stated that "according to a leading UFO investigator" (Philip J. Klass) "at least one extraterrestrial object was involved - the planet Jupiter, and possibly another - Mars." The press release asserted that at the time of the sighting (incorrectly given as one hour earlier than it actually occurred) Jupiter was "extremely bright" at a -2.6 magnitude and would have been about 10 degrees above the horizon on the left side of the aircraft where the pilot first reported seeing the UFO. Mars would have been slightly lower and about 20 degrees to the right of Jupiter. The press release stated that "Although the very bright Jupiter and less bright Mars had to be visible to JAL Capt. Kenjyu Terauchi, the pilot never once reported seeing either - only a UFO that he described as being a "white and yellow" light in his initial radio report to the Federal Aviation Administration controllers at Anchorage" [14]. The press release could have mentioned, but did not, that Terauchi did report seeing numerous stars in the sky, city lights and a glow of sunset in the west.

The CSICOP explanation was based mostly on Phil Klass' analysis of an early version of the transcript of the audio tape. The radar tracking data were not made available at that time and so he could not have known the precise locations and flight directions of the plane at the times of the various sightings. Apparently he completely ignored the pictorial information (drawings by the captain) which had been widely publicized. Mr. Klass made a major error in not waiting for the release of the complete information package by the FAA because, if he had waited, he would have found that the publicized versions of the sighting were actually quite accurate in their descriptions of the lights. These descriptions, of course, rule out Jupiter and Mars as possible causes of the sighting. Without the FAA data package he did not know that initial drawings were made only about 2 hours after the event. Nor did he know that the other crew members, in separate interviews, supported the captain's report of the groups of lights that appeared in front of the plane. Nor did he know about the sudden rearrangement of the relative positions of the groups of lights from one above the other to one beside the other, a maneuver that Jupiter and Mars would have difficulty carrying out during the time of the sighting. Nor did he know that at the end of the sighting, while the plane was flying southward, roughly toward Jupiter and Mars, the pilot reported the "gigantic spacecraft" was behind and to the left, in a direction nearly opposite to the planets.

The CSICOP press release discussed and rejected the FAA and Air Force radar detections. Curiously, however, it completely ignored the claim by the pilot that the airplane radar did detect a radar-reflective object at 7 to 8 miles in the direction of the UFO. Perhaps Mr. Klass rejected this claim, but if he had waited for the data package from the FAA he would have learned that the other two members of the crew confirmed the pilot's statement about the radar detection.

In summary, the Jupiter-Mars explanation is contradicted by the sighting directions to the UFO at various times, by the descriptions of the crew members and by the airplane radar detection. However, the "gullible" press did not know that at the time. The explanation was widely publicized. The explanation made the captain look like an idiot, but that's OK. Only idiots report UFOs. Having done their duty the newsmedia promptly forget about the sighting.

In retrospect it appears that the CSICOP press release which was marked "FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE" should have been marked "FOR PREMATURE RELEASE."

Now, you know the rest of the story about Phil Klass, CSICOP and their debunked explanations regarding JAL 1628.

I notice that by calling it an unidentified flying object, you have thereby assumed that you have identified it.

I didn't know the model number but I would like to add that just weeks later, an Air Force KC-135 encountered an identical UFO as the one reported by JAL 1628, and the very next day after the Air Force encounter, Alaska Airlines Flt 53 encountered a UFO.

Not many people are aware that there were so many UFO reports in the Alaskan region that a special team was dispatched from Wright-Patterson AFB to film UFOs in flight and they were successful. In one encounter, one of the UFOs flew next to the filming aircraft whereas, photos were locked up in a special container and cuffed to a courier who then returned the photos to Wright-Patterson AFB.

The public is largely unaware of what goes on behind the closed doors of the US military in regard to UFO, but then again, how many people knew the military confirmed the existence of its "Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit" (IPU) and "Project Moon Dust" and "Operation Blue Fly?"

I didn't know the model number but I would like to add that just weeks later, an Air Force KC-135 encountered an identical UFO as the one reported by JAL 1628, and the very next day after the Air Force encounter, Alaska Airlines Flt 53 encountered a UFO.

Not many people are aware that there were so many UFO reports in the Alaskan region that a special team was dispatched from Wright-Patterson AFB to film UFOs in flight and they were successful. In one encounter, one of the UFOs flew next to the filming aircraft whereas, photos were locked up in a special container and cuffed to a courier who then returned the photos to Wright-Patterson AFB.

The public is largely unaware of what goes on behind the closed doors of the US military in regard to UFO, but then again, how many people knew the military confirmed the existence of its "Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit" (IPU) and "Project Moon Dust" and "Operation Blue Fly?"

I didn't know the model number but I would like to add that just weeks later, an Air Force KC-135 encountered an identical UFO as the one reported by JAL 1628, and the very next day after the Air Force encounter, Alaska Airlines Flt 53 encountered a UFO.

Not many people are aware that there were so many UFO reports in the Alaskan region that a special team was dispatched from Wright-Patterson AFB to film UFOs in flight and they were successful. In one encounter, one of the UFOs flew next to the filming aircraft whereas, photos were locked up in a special container and cuffed to a courier who then returned the photos to Wright-Patterson AFB.

The public is largely unaware of what goes on behind the closed doors of the US military in regard to UFO, but then again, how many people knew the military confirmed the existence of its "Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit" (IPU) and "Project Moon Dust" and "Operation Blue Fly?"

.

So how do you get from Unidentified Flying Object to "I know it's an alien spaceship!"

__________________"This quote was taken out of context."
- Randall Munroe

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

That sounds good. How about we examine details of Japan 1628?

The gigantic UFO following the B-747 was confirmed by ground-based radar.

The FAA made a statement withdrawing that claim.

Quote:

After a three-month investigation, the FAA formally released their results at a press conference held on March 5, 1987. Here Paul Steucke retracted earlier FAA suggestions that their controllers confirmed a UFO,[13] and ascribed it to a "split radar image" which appeared with unfortunate timing. He clarified that "the FAA [did] not have enough material to confirm that something was there", and though they were "accepting the descriptions by the crew" they were "unable to support what they saw"

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

Weeks later in the Alaskan region, a huge UFO as described in the JAL 1628 incident was reported by an Air Force KC-135 in the general area. The next day, Alaska Airlines Flt 53 encountered and reported a UFO.

On 29 January 1987[12][note 5] at 18:40,[18] Alaska Airlines Flight 53 observed a fast moving object on their onboard weather radar. While at 35,000 ft (11,000 m), some 60 miles (97 km) west of McGrath, on a flight from Nome to Anchorage, the radar registered a strong target in their 12 o'clock position, at 25 miles (40 km) range.

While they could not distinguish any object or light visually, they noticed that the radar object was increasing its distance at a very high rate. With every sweep of their radar, about 1 second apart, the object added five miles to its distance, translating to a speed of 18,000 mph (29,000 km/h).[18][19] The pilot however relayed a speed of 'a mile a second' to the control tower, or a speed of 3,600 mph (5,800 km/h),[20] but confirmed that the target exceeded both the 50 mi (80 km) and 100 mi (160 km) ranges of their radar scope in a matter of seconds.[18][19] The object was outside the radar range of the Anchorage ARTCC,[18] and additional radar data covering the specified time and location failed to substantiate the pilots' claim.

Very sketchy, methinks.
Visible on radar, but not visually, and different reports of speed. Not convinced at all, I'm afraid.

The fact that the huge object was captured on the weather radar was very significant considering the skies were clear at cruise altitude. One commercial pilots said that the sky was so clear, "you could see into next Tuesday."

And, let's remember the huge object maneuvering around JAL 1628 was tracked on military and civilian radars in addition to the aircraft's own weather radar.

Quote:

After a three-month investigation, the FAA formally released their results at a press conference held on March 5, 1987. Here Paul Steucke retracted earlier FAA suggestions that their controllers confirmed a UFO,[13] and ascribed it to a "split radar image" which appeared with unfortunate timing. He clarified that "the FAA [did] not have enough material to confirm that something was there", and though they were "accepting the descriptions by the crew" they were "unable to support what they saw"

That report was determined to be false because the UFO data was confirmed after extensive analysis in New Jersey. The FAA, software and hardware technicians confirmed the data that depicted the UFOs maneuvering around JAL 1628. Now, let's take a look here.

Quote:

The Alaskan FAA Investigator's Summary

The FAA had kept a great deal of data on the incident including all the positional radar data, an actual video recording of the radar screen, and all the audio records from both calls to the military base, including the conversations with Captain Kenju Terauchi, the pilot of flight 1628 (recorded as the event transpired). The FAA investigator assigned to the case, John Callahan, investigated the incident in depth and put on a ‘dog and pony show’ for a small group representatives from several branches of the US Government, and handed over all copies of the data collect to the appropriate officials. What slipped passed those official’s knowledge, was that Mr. Callahan had all the original documents in a box under his desk, and there they sat for several years, available to anyone interested in the case. It should be understood, that John Callahan remains truthful and willing to cooperate in any way with any inquiries on the subject of JAL flight 1628.

"As the Division Manager for the FAA Washington headquarters Accidents, Evaluation and Investigations, I was responsible for the quality of air traffic service provided to the FAA users." Mr. Callahan states. "When informed of the ‘UFO incident involving a Japanese B747 in the Alaskan region’

I ordered the RADAR recorded data and voice tapes flown to the FAA Technical Center in Atlantic City, New Jersey for evaluation and analysis by both FAA Hardware and Software experts.

After reviewing the play back of the event on a controller’s scope, referred to as a ‘PVD’ and receiving a detailed analysis of the incident, I briefed the FAA Administrator and members of President Reagan’s scientific staff, CIA, etc. on the following information:

During the play back of the event I observed a primary radar target in the position reported by the Japanese pilot. The intermittent primary target stayed in close proximately to the B747 for approximately 31 minutes. Both the FAA controller and military NORAD controller reported observing the RADAR return of the ‘UFO’ target on their ‘scopes.’

There was no noticeable ‘weather’ in the area. ‘You can see into next Tuesday’ was reported by a United pilot.

The UFO was painted as an extremely large primary target. As a result of the lacking run length identification the FAA computer system treated the UFO RADAR return as ‘weather’ and transmitted it to the controller’s PVD via a non recorded line.

(All known aircraft are programed in the FAA computer systems ‘Run Length’ table.)

At the conclusion of the hand-off briefing the CIA advised they were ‘confiscating all the data, this event never happened, we were never here and you are all sworn to secrecy.’

So therefore you know that it's an alien spaceship? Are there truly no other possible explanations?

Absolutely!! What many people didn't know is that the objects were well-known in the area, which is why a detachment from Wright-Patterson AFB was sent to the area, and once again, they were successful at filming the objects, one of which flew extremely close to one of the aircraft that was doing the filming.

Quote:

I put it to you that there are many possible explanations that you have not considered. Including that it was a ghost.

Absolutely!! What many people didn't know is that the objects were well-known in the area, which is why a detachment from Wright-Patterson AFB was sent to the area, and once again, they were successful at filming the objects, one of which flew extremely close to one of the aircraft that was doing the filming.

I put it to you again that there are many possible explanations that you have not considered - that it has not even occurred to you to consider. The fact that it's not one thing does not mean that it is a particular other thing.

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

Ghost do not reflect nor return solid radar images.

How do you know that? They affect EMF meters don't they? Radar is simply a directed EM pulse.

__________________"This quote was taken out of context."
- Randall Munroe

Very sketchy, methinks.
Visible on radar, but not visually, and different reports of speed. Not convinced at all, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

The fact that the huge object was captured on the weather radar was very significant considering the skies were clear at cruise altitude. One commercial pilots said that the sky was so clear, "you could see into next Tuesday."

And, let's remember the huge object maneuvering around JAL 1628 was tracked on military and civilian radars in addition to the aircraft's own weather radar.

That report was determined to be false because the UFO data was confirmed after extensive analysis in New Jersey. The FAA, software and hardware technicians confirmed the data that depicted the UFOs maneuvering around JAL 1628. Now, let's take a look here.

From my link:

Quote:

The case merits a chapter (#22) in Leslie Kean's book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record. Written by John J. Callahan, he claims that Terauchi's crew "both saw it, too." Of course this is false - they saw only lights, not the giant spaceship that Terauchi reported. Callahan also claims that "it flew alongside his jet" after he turned, but (as Klass notes), this contradicts what Terauchi told FAA controllers at the time. Callahan ices the cake with his claim that the CIA has over 30 minutes of radar data confirming Terauchi's UFO, but they refuse to release it, to prevent public panic.

How credible is Callahan’s account? In 2011, UFO Blogger Ryan Daube wrote,
At this point, Callahan’s credentials and story has never actually been independently confirmed. In fact, back in 2007, as we were attempting to verify his claims, we contacted CIA Science Analyst Ron Pandolfi. Ron admitted that both he and Maccabee had in fact attended an FAA meeting like the one Callahan described. However, he did not recall anyone making any statement that the meeting never happened, or that the data should be covered up…. We contacted Maccabee and he also confirmed that he was at such a meeting and received all of the data for his analysis and report, but he also did not recall anyone at the meeting trying to cover it up.

We reported this contradiction to Leslie Kean of the Coalition for Freedom of Information – the only listed contact for Callahan – and she initially did not believe us. Therefore, I put her in direct contact with Pandolfi and Maccabee, who both told her exactly what they told us. Kean refused to let us speak directly with Callahan to resolve the discrepancy, and eventually refused to cooperate regarding getting any clarification from Callahan.

In fact, Kean completely ignored the contradictory witness statements that she received first-hand, and instead went on to publish a book in 2010 titled UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record, where she repeated Callahan’s testimony in full on page 222, and even focused on the “this never happened” statement.

She completely left out the fact that she had received direct testimony from both a CIA analyst and Bruce Maccabee, stating that they were at such a meeting that matched the meeting John described, and that no one said anything about covering-up.
So much for the credibility of John Callahan.

I put it to you again that there are many possible explanations that you have not considered - that it has not even occurred to you to consider. The fact that it's not one thing does not mean that it is a particular other thing.

How do you know that? They affect EMF meters don't they? Radar is simply a directed EM pulse.

UFOs are not only tracked on airborne and ground-based radar, but have been tracked using ELINT systems and optical sensors as well. In fact, the Iranian UFO incident was tracked by a DSP satellite. Radar can differentiate between artificial objects and natural phenomena. In fact, radar can differentiate between species of bats and birds and radar "ghost angels."

In case you missed this incident, here is a case where a B-52 encountered a UFO.

From my link:
The case merits a chapter (#22) in Leslie Kean's book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record. Written by John J. Callahan, he claims that Terauchi's crew "both saw it, too." Of course this is false - they saw only lights, not the giant spaceship that Terauchi reported. Callahan also claims that "it flew alongside his jet" after he turned, but (as Klass notes), this contradicts what Terauchi told FAA controllers at the time. Callahan ices the cake with his claim that the CIA has over 30 minutes of radar data confirming Terauchi's UFO, but they refuse to release it, to prevent public panic.

How credible is Callahan’s account? In 2011, UFO Blogger Ryan Daube wrote,
At this point, Callahan’s credentials and story has never actually been independently confirmed. In fact, back in 2007, as we were attempting to verify his claims, we contacted CIA Science Analyst Ron Pandolfi. Ron admitted that both he and Maccabee had in fact attended an FAA meeting like the one Callahan described. However, he did not recall anyone making any statement that the meeting never happened, or that the data should be covered up…. We contacted Maccabee and he also confirmed that he was at such a meeting and received all of the data for his analysis and report, but he also did not recall anyone at the meeting trying to cover it up.

We reported this contradiction to Leslie Kean of the Coalition for Freedom of Information – the only listed contact for Callahan – and she initially did not believe us. Therefore, I put her in direct contact with Pandolfi and Maccabee, who both told her exactly what they told us. Kean refused to let us speak directly with Callahan to resolve the discrepancy, and eventually refused to cooperate regarding getting any clarification from Callahan.

In fact, Kean completely ignored the contradictory witness statements that she received first-hand, and instead went on to publish a book in 2010 titled UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record, where she repeated Callahan’s testimony in full on page 222, and even focused on the “this never happened” statement.

She completely left out the fact that she had received direct testimony from both a CIA analyst and Bruce Maccabee, stating that they were at such a meeting that matched the meeting John described, and that no one said anything about covering-up.

So much for the credibility of John Callahan.

Let's take a look at what Maccabee has said in regards to Callahan.

Quote:

IN May, 2001, John Callahan, who was at the time the manager of the FAA Division of Accidents, Evaluations and Investigations, for the first time publicized his version of the JAL1628 story. His testimony is presented at the CSETI web site. According to Callahan, when he learned of the sighting he directed that the radar tapes be sent to the FAA analysis center
in Atlanta.

Then he flew to Atlanta and, using his new home video camera, recorded the radar tape as it was played back through the special equipment at the Atlanta center. The radar tape was synchronized with the audio tape of conversations between the air traffic controller and the airplane.

In an interview in 2001 Mr. Callahan told me that the unknown radar target
disappeared when the plane was flying south from Fairbanks (after making the complete turn at Fairbanks) while the United airplane was flying northward toward JAL1628. The United plane did not see anything. But after the United airplane passed the JAL and continued north....the unknown radar target appeared again, this time BEHIND THE UNITED AIRPLANE.

FAA headquarters they briefed Vice Admiral Donald D. Engen, who watched the whole video of over half an hour, and asked them not to talk to anybody until they were given the OK, and to prepare an encompassing presentation of the data for a group of government officials the next day.

COPILOT Tamefuji recalled that the radar echo was "just like other traffic, but, ah, I thought a little bit large." He said the radar target image was green and at a distance of 7 to 8 miles (nautical). He said he had "many experiences before in checking oncoming aircrafts on a radar" and in his opinion the radar echo was similar to a conventional aircraft echo.
Captain TERAUCHI wrote

" I thought it would be impossible to find anything on an aircraft radar if a large ground radar did not show anything, but I judged the distance of the object visually and it was not very far. I set the digital weather radar distance to 20 (nautical) miles, radar angle to horizon (i.e., no depression angle). There it was on the screen. A large green and round object (here he refers to the image or "blip" on the radar screen) had appeared at 7 or 8 miles (13 km to 15 km) away, where the direction of the object was. We reported to Anchorage center that our radar caught the object within 7 or 8 miles in the 10 o'clock position. We asked them if they could catch it on ground radar but it did not seem they could catch it at all."

Flight engineer Tsukuba, who sat behind the copilot, did not have as good a view of the lights. He first saw them "through the L1 window at the 11 o'clock position" and he saw "clusters of lights undulating". These clusters were "made of two parts...shaped like windows of an airplane". He emphasized that "the lights in front of us were different from town lights." He described the colors as white or amber.

Tamefuji decided to call Anchorage Air Traffic Control, and for the next thirty minutes the 747 and AARTCC were in constant contact regarding the UFO.

PERSONNEL STATEMENT

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

Anchorage Air Route' Traffic Control Center

January 7, 1987

The following Is a report concerning the Incident involving aircraft JL 1628

north of Fairbanks on November 18, 1986 at 0218 UTC.

My name is Samuel J. Rich (SR). I am employed as an Air Traffic Control

Specialist by the Federal Aviation Administration at the Anchorage Air Route

Traffic Control Center, Anchorage, Alaska.

During the period of 0035 UTC, November 18, 1986, to 0835 UTC, November 18, 1986, I vas on duty in the Anchorage ARTCC. I was working the D15 position from 0230 UTC, November 18, 1986, to 0530 UTC, November 18, 1986.

The pilot of JL 1628 reported that he had traffic at his altitude. He stated

it was a big plane with yellow and white lights. We advised him we had no

traffic in his position. We adjusted the radar PVD to approximately a 25 mile

scale and there was a radar return in the position the pilot had reported

traffic.

I called ROCC to ask if they had any military traffic operating near JL 1628.

The ROCC said they had no military traffic in the area. I then asked them if

they could see any traffic near JL 1628. ROCC advised that they had traffic

near JL 1628 In the same position we did.

I asked ROCC if they had any aircraft to scramble on JL 1628, they said they

would call back. However, there was no further communication regarding the request for a scramble.

Samuel J. Rich

Air Traffic Control Specialist

Anchorage ARTCC

I might add that the CIA did speak with Callahan for a very good reason; his position and the fact he would have had the radar and communications data, not Leslie Kean nor Bruce Maccabee. As far as the CIA and UFOs are concerned, let's take a look here.

It is time for the truth to be brought out... Behind the scenes high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense.... I urge immediate Congressional action to reduce the dangers from secrecy about unidentified flying objects.

Ground Saucer Watch (GSW), an Arizona-based nation-wide UFO research organization of about 500 scientists, engineers and others, said on Friday it has obtained 1,000 pages of CIA documents under a freedom of information suit which show that the agency has been secretly involved in UFO surveillance since 1949 - even though the CIA has repeatedly said its investigation ended in 1952. William Spauldintg, an aerospace engineer with AiResearch and head of GSW, said "the Government has been lying to us all these years. After reviewing the docments, GSW believes that UFOs do exist, they are real, the U.S. Government has been totally untruthful, and the cover-up is massive."

Mr. Spaulding said the documents show that U.S. embassies are used to gather information on UFO sightings which "seems to be directed to the CIA, the White House and the National Security Agency." A CIA memo dated August 1, 1952, recommended continued agency surveillance of "flying saucers", saying, "It is strongly urged, however, that no indication of CIA interest or concern reach the press or public, in view of their probably alarmist tendencies to accept such interest as confirmatory of the soundness of 'unpublished facts' in the hands of the U.S. Government."

Among the documents are several detailed reports of USAF attempts to either intercept or destroy UFOs. In a 1976 incident in Iran, two F-4 Phantom jet fighter-bombers pursued a large UFO that was sending out smaller craft. One of the smaller craft "headed straight for the F-4 at a very fast rate of speed. The pilot attempted to fire an AI missile at the object but at that instant his weapons control panel went off and he lost all communications." the pilot eluded the craft, then watched as it "returned to the primary object for a perfect rejoin."

It is time for the truth to be brought out... Behind the scenes high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense.... I urge immediate Congressional action to reduce the dangers from secrecy about unidentified flying objects.

According to the New York Times. I can find no other source for this quote.

You can make a request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) for his report to Congress, and I might add that he was not only the first Director of the CIA, but he wanted a public disclosure of UFO evidence.

Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter was also a classmate of Major Donald E. Keyhoe, the person who was in the process of revealing very sensitive information on what the US government knew about UFOs. Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter was also on the National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomenon's (NICAP) board of governors.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

According to the New York Times. I can find no other source for this quote.

You can make a request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) for his report to Congress, and I might add that he was not only the first Director of the CIA, but he wanted a public disclosure of UFO evidence.

In other words, you don't have any other corroboration for this quote, and you are expecting me to do your research for you. Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter was also a classmate of Major Donald E. Keyhoe, the person who was in the process of revealing very sensitive information on what the US government knew about UFOs. Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter was also on the National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomenon's (NICAP) board of governors.

Is this mundane coincidence supposed to make their alleged testimony more credible? Because I don't think it does.

In other words, you don't have any other corroboration for this quote, and you are expecting me to do your research for you. Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

On the contrary, make the request under the FOIA as I have said. You have the date, source and other information needed to obtain his report and while you are at it, make a request for the Coyote landing File. Here's a bit of information for you.

Quote:

Documented Kirtland AFB Flying Saucer Landing

An UFO landed in the Coyote Canyon area not far from Kirtland AFB in 1980, and later, it was determined that a strange jamming signal, which was knocking out radar systems, came from the area of the reported UFO landing site.

On 13 Aug 80, 1960 COMM Sq Maintenance Officer reported RADAR Approach Control equipment and scanner radar inoperative due to high frequency jamming from an unknown cause. Total blackout of entire RADAR approach system to include Albuquerque Airport was in effect between 1630-2215 hrs (4:30 PM-1015 PM). Radar Approach Control back up system also were inoperative.

On 13 Aug 80, Defense Nuclear Agency Radio Frequency Monitors determined, by vector analysis, the interference was being sent from an area (V-90 degrees or due East). On DAF map coordinates E-28.6. The area was located NW of Coyote Canyon Test area. It was first thought that Sandia Laboratory, which utilizes the test range was responsible. However, after a careful check, it was later determined that no tests were being conducted in the canyon area. Department of Energy, Air Force Weapons Laboratory and DNA were contacted but assured that their agencies were not responsible.

SUMMARY OF INFORMATION

1. On 2 Sept 80, SOURCE related on 8 Aug 80, three Security Policemen assigned to 1608 SPS, KAFB, NM, on duty inside the Manzano Weapons Storage Area sighted an unidentified light in the air that traveled from North to South over the Coyote Canyon area of the Department of Defense Restricted Test Range on KAFB, NM. The Security Policemen identified as: SSGT STEPHEN FERENZ, Area Supervisor, ATC MARTIN W. RIST and AMN ANTHONY D. FRAZIER, were later interviewed separately by SOURCE and all three related the same statement; at approximately 2350 hrs., while on duty in Charlie Sector, East Side of Manzano, the three observed a very bright light in the sky approximately 3 miles North-North East of their position.

The light traveled with great speed and stopped suddenly in the sky over Coyote Canyon. The three first thought the object was a helicopter, however, after observing the strange aerial maneuvers (stop and go), they felt a helicopter couldn't have performed such skills. The light landed in the Coyote Canyon area. Sometime later, three witnessed the light take off and leave proceeding straight up at a high speed and disappear.

And then, you can review the contents in the following now, declassified report, which is available online.

HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE

DIRECTORATE OF INTELLIGENCE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

TOP SECRET AF cy 102

CONTROL

No 6637

I might add that we are now on the road to full official disclosure, but it is still years away.

On 2nd April 1997, Chilean newspaper "La Cuarta" has the following headline: "UFO Sighting of Arica is Confirmed by La Direccion General de Aeronautic Civil." Chile did start to join the small number of countries who officially stated that the nature of UFOs is of intelligent driven flying machines.

Brazilian Air Force Opens Its UFO Files to Public

They were talking about UFO files and UFO reality and their research of UFOs, how they are not able to fully understand because of the technology involved is far beyond their comprehension. They were speaking openly for about 15 minutes on national television.

Peru Sets Up Official UFO Office

The Miami Herald, Wednesday, January 23, 2002 LIMA

Peru's air force has set up a nationwide system to track alleged UFOs, ...

(PRWEB) - OTTAWA, CANADA (PRWEB) November 24, 2005 -- A former Canadian Minister of Defence and Deputy Prime Minister under Pierre Trudeau has joined forces with three Non-governmental organizations to ask the Parliament of Canada to hold public hearings on Exopolitics -- relations with ETs.

By ETs, Mr. Hellyer and these organizations mean ethical, advanced extraterrestrial civilizations that may now be visiting Earth.

On September 25, 2005, in a startling speech at the University of Toronto that caught the attention of mainstream newspapers and magazines, Paul Hellyer, Canadas Defence Minister from 1963-67 under Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Prime Minister Lester Pearson, publicly stated: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head."

Military Nuclear Specialists Testify To UFO Reality

Several military and intelligence witnesses who were Strategic Air Command ...SAC) and other nuclear specialists have come forward with testimony proving that UFOs are real and appear to be concerned about our nuclear weapons.

UN 'to appoint space ambassador to greet alien visitors'

A space ambassador could be appointed by the United Nations to act as the first point of contact for aliens trying to communicate with Earth.

Opinion is divided about how future extraterrestrial visitors should be greeted. Under the Outer Space Treaty on 1967, which Unoosa oversees, UN members agreed to protect Earth against contamination by alien species by “sterilising” them.

Mrs Othman is understood to support a more tolerant approach.

But Professor Stephen Hawking has warned that alien interlopers should be treated with caution.

He said: “I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. The outcome for us would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.”

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

According to the New York Times. I can find no other source for this quote.

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

You can make a request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) for his report to Congress, and I might add that he was not only the first Director of the CIA, but he wanted a public disclosure of UFO evidence.

Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter was also a classmate of Major Donald E. Keyhoe, the person who was in the process of revealing very sensitive information on what the US government knew about UFOs. Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter was also on the National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomenon's (NICAP) board of governors.

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

On the contrary, make the request under the FOIA as I have said. You have the date, source and other information needed to obtain his report

Nope. Your claim, your burden of proof. What have you yourself done to substantiate this quote? If you have nothing more than an unsubstantiated newspaper story, why are you posting it as evidence?

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

and while you are at it, make a request for the Coyote landing File. Here's a bit of information for you.

I have asked before that you stop the Gish Gallop. I'm not chasing after any more of your rabbits.

Well, the light of truth has been shone on UFOs and they've been found to be mundane, Earthly things every time. Do we really need to keep giving the 'UFOs are extraterrestrial' brigade the oxygen of publicity/response thread after thread, page after page?

The ubiquity of smartphones with cameras means we should be seeing more evidence of extraterrestrial presence on Earth if it exists, not less!

Well, the light of truth has been shone on UFOs and they've been found to be mundane, Earthly things every time. Do we really need to keep giving the 'UFOs are extraterrestrial' brigade the oxygen of publicity/response thread after thread, page after page?
The ubiquity of smartphones with cameras means we should be seeing more evidence of extraterrestrial presence on Earth if it exists, not less!

Been mentioned numerous times in the past - there is an obvious connection between UFO's and bigfoots.

__________________Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

The source and other information is there for all to see and I told you to use the FOIA to verify what I have posted. It's that simple. My challenge of for you to use the FOIA to verify what I have posted is true. Are you willing to take up my challenge?

Behind the scenes high ranking officers are soberly concerned about UFOs, but through official secrecy and ridicule many citizens are led to believe that the unknown flying objects are nonsense. . .To hide the facts, the Air Force has silenced its personnel."

-Admiral Roscoe Hillencoter, former director of the CIA, at a 1962 NICAP press conference in Washington D.C.

"It is time for the truth to be brought out in open Congressional hearings. Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense. To hide the facts, the Air Force has silenced its personnel".

(New York Times, the 28.th of February 1960).

It is time for the truth to be brought out... Behind the scenes high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense.... I urge immediate Congressional action to reduce the dangers from secrecy about unidentified flying objects.

United Press International (February 28, 1960). "AIR FORGE ORDER ON 'SAUCERS' CITED;Pamphlet by the Inspector General Called Objects a 'Serious Business'" (Fee).
The New York Times. p. 30. Retrieved 2009-03-30. "WASHINGTON, February 27

(UPI) – The Air Force has sent its commands a warning to treat sightings of unidentified flying objects as "serious business" directly related to the nation's defense, it was learned today."

A government report saying that something strange happened in no way proves that the thing that happened was an alien spacecraft. Of all the giant images and words written by people about what they think, not one of them has been definitive proof that aliens are visiting earth. At best it's circumstantial, at worst it's outright lies (as has been demonstrated plenty of times by others).

__________________"This quote was taken out of context."
- Randall Munroe

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,956

Originally Posted by skyeagle409

The source and other information is there for all to see and I told you to use the FOIA to verify what I have posted. It's that simple. My challenge of for you to use the FOIA to verify what I have posted is true. Are you willing to take up my challenge?

Endless attempts to shift the burden of proof are only wasting your time.

The "source" you quote is hearsay from the NYT. Reposting hearsay doesn't make it any more true.

Yes! The US military knew decades ago the objects were not of this earth.

"Captain Edward J.Ruppelt, former chief of Project Blue Book, has confirmed the existence of four important documents that should be noted. In 1948, in a "Top Secret" estimate, the (Air Technical Intelligence Center, Wright-Patterson AFB) concluded that UFOs were interplanetary spaceships. In 1952, an Air Force Intelligence analysis of UFO maneuvers brought the same conclusion... interplanetary."

"The Robertson Panel in 1953 saw UFOs as a danger and sought to hide the truth from the American public, thus enter the CIA's UFO debunking and spying campaign.

A CIA memo from 1976 "tells how the agency is still having to 'keep in touch with reporting channels' in ufology (in other words, to spy on UFO groups."

The Air Force knew the Roswell incident involved extraterrestrials when it reported that it captured a flying saucer. Later, the Air Force said that it was a weather balloon and that story held for 47 years. In 1994, the Air Force changed its story and said the Roswell incident involved a classified Project Mogul balloon train #4 on June 4, 1947, which was a full month before Brazel discovered the debris field on the Foster ranch and he would have been in the field attending to sheep occasionally between June 4, and June 30 and yet he saw no debris field until the first week of July. In 1997, the Air Force added bodies to the Roswell story and said that alien bodies people saw were test dummies for Project High Dive. The problem with the Air Force's Project High Dive explanation is that Project High Dive test were not carried out until the 1950s. Amazingly, Colonel Raymond Madson who headed "Project High Dive" said the Air Force was lying when it claimed his test dummies were misidentified as alien bodies.

Quote:

AF ROSWELL STUDY CONTRIBUTOR ADMITS "IT WAS ET!"

The Lt. Colonel who was a major contributor to the Air Force's official 1997 study that concluded that the Roswell ET crash of 1947 is a "myth"- now states that the Air Force's Roswell report is itself a lie. The Colonel goes further to state that what he really believes to be true is that aliens actually did crash to Earth decades ago! He adds that he was "used" and that the the author of the Air Force report "was on a mission" with no interest in discovering what really happened at Roswell.

Amazingly, Madson believes that an extraterrestrial crash actually had happened - and that the bodies were stored for a period of time at Wright Patterson! He bases this on the fact that he himself had served at Wright Patterson in the early 1950's -before going to Holloman AFB to conduct the crash dummy tests. He personally had heard -just a few years after the Roswell event- directly from "others who would have been positioned to know" that there was a "very secure facility" at the base that served as the storage place for the alien bodies that were recovered from a crash sometime before he began employment at Wright.

Notice that Lt. Colonel Madson spoke about Wright-Patterson AFB, which is where the Air Force concluded that the UFOs in question were "Interplanetary Spaceships." Let's take a look here.

Quote:

General Arthur E. Exon, Commanding Officer, Wright-Patterson AFB

(RUCU) (C&S, p. 191, 194)

"...They knew they had something new in their hands. The metal and material was unknown to anyone I talked to. Whatever they found, I never heard what the results were. A couple of guys thought it might be Russian, but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space. Everyone from the White House on down knew that what we had found was not of this world within 24 hours of our finding it. ...Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space."

I might add that Project Mogul balloons were not classified at all and that even Project Mogul balloon teams reported tracking flying saucers over New Mexico. In once case they saw objects hovering 200 miles above the earth.

Endless attempts to shift the burden of proof are only wasting your time.

I've provided evidence, data and declassified documentation and it is up to you to make the judgement call, but to ignore the significance of what they depict won't change reality, and that is, the objects are not those of mankind.

I've provided evidence, data and declassified documentation and it is up to you to make the judgement call, but to ignore the significance of what they depict won't change reality, and that is, the objects are not those of mankind.

No-one ever suggested that the "objects" were definitely "of mankind". You just can't come to the conclusion Not X therefore Y without first considering whether it's any of the other letters of the alphabet. Make sure you include letters in alphabets you're not familiar with yet.

__________________"This quote was taken out of context."
- Randall Munroe