re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by Melvin on 10/12/12 at 12:15 pm to Baloo)

You guys are absolutely right. Music obviously is not 100 percent subjective because as yall have stated there is simply more time, effort and quality in some music compared to others. The Beatles example is actually a perfect one because i really am not a fan of their music at all but i do understand that they are a legendary band and i respect them and their diehard fans. Sometimes i do get overly defensive about music because it can be a large part of who we are and when people are laughed at for their preferences it annoys me. Even tho most of the time i know it's just in good fun

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by bobbyray21 on 10/12/12 at 12:18 pm to Baloo)

quote:I disagree with this statement in its entirety. Great music is more than just something you enjoy, it becomes a part of you. It says something about the human condition or expresses emotions or thoughts that words cannot express.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by bobbyray21 on 10/12/12 at 12:25 pm to Baloo)

quote:I find it hard to believe you can "hate every note" of anything. Play a note in isolation and, well, it's just a note. It's what you do with that note.

But this analysis essentially means that you are the ultimate arbiter of the quality of anything. Which I guess is fine from a personal standpoint, but why bother discussing music on a forum? This viewpoint is completely antithetical to having an analytical discussion on music. "I like it. Discussion over." There's nowhere to go.

Why do you find this shocking? Of course I am the ultimate arbiter. How else am I to evaluate music if it isn't purely on the basis of how it sounds to me?

Should I do a survey instead? Should I ask pitchfork.com what they think? Should I ask my 4 year old niece what she thinks? Well perhaps I will...but their opinion will have no bearing on my own. Does this make sense? Music is to be listened to and enjoyed. I either like something or I don't. If I'm asking questions about why I like something, or whether I should like something, that makes me a hipster, and I better go buy some skinny jeans and an ironic t-shirt or eight.

The above doesn't make discussing music less interesting. Sure, I'm interested in hearing why people liked Dirty Projectors when I hated it. Will their opinion make me un-dislike it? Nope. But it's still interesting to talk about.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by Baloo on 10/12/12 at 12:25 pm to bobbyray21)

Sure. But there are other people in the world other than you. There's a reason films tend to use the same songs to signify a certain epoch (well, laziness). Some songs are almost a shared experience and their use can bring about reaction in a large audience -- even if those reactions are viscerally different.

If "Yesterday" were to start playing right now with all of in the audience, we'd all recognize the tune and have an instant emotional response. Yours, apparently, would be violently negative. But its a song so ubiquitous that us this point it has become part of the communal experience of being alive right now. How cool is that?

But even more obscure songs can have deeply held personal reactions by people. I used the Beatles because you've made it clear you hate them and therefore they are not a part of your experience. I'd argue the opposite. Your hatred of the music has now become a personal identifier (which, guh, means KISS is a similar identifier for me). The music you don't like says as much about you as the music you do like. It's not just negative space.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by bobbyray21 on 10/12/12 at 12:28 pm to Baloo)

quote:But even more obscure songs can have deeply held personal reactions by people. I used the Beatles because you've made it clear you hate them and therefore they are not a part of your experience. I'd argue the opposite. Your hatred of the music has now become a personal identifier (which, guh, means KISS is a similar identifier for me). The music you don't like says as much about you as the music you do like. It's not just negative space.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by Baloo on 10/12/12 at 12:30 pm to LSUSOBEAST1)

quote:Why are ya'll even arguing with Bobbyray?

Because I find his theory of the audience as being a collection of independent gods to be fascinating. He's arguing that music exists for his own personal enjoyment. That is a remarkably self-obsessed and narcissistic ideal. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but he's arguing that the audience is more important than the artist or the art itself, and that art doesn't exist until he subjectively perceives it. That's not a unique theory, but it's one I don't really subscribe to, but it's interesting to hear someone who truly believes it to defend it.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by bobbyray21 on 10/12/12 at 12:37 pm to Baloo)

quote:Because I find his theory of the audience as being a collection of independent gods to be fascinating. He's arguing that music exists for his own personal enjoyment. That is a remarkably self-obsessed and narcissistic ideal. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but he's arguing that the audience is more important than the artist or the art itself, and that art doesn't exist until he subjectively perceives it. That's not a unique theory, but it's one I don't really subscribe to, but it's interesting to hear someone who truly believes it to defend it.

Yup. I think if you're attempting to evaluate music on any basis other than subjective perception, you're basically just being dishonest.

That doesn't mean that I believe that people that like Nickelback are terrible human beings, or that I don't value their opinions. It's just that their opinions are wrong.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by Baloo on 10/12/12 at 12:41 pm to bobbyray21)

quote:Why do you find this shocking? Of course I am the ultimate arbiter. How else am I to evaluate music if it isn't purely on the basis of how it sounds to me?

Because you've eliminated this whole complex emotional pallete which music can affect. Do I like it? Cool. Success! It seems so binary, but it also reduces music to just another commodity. There's actually some music I'm not sure if I like that I think is spectacular. It feels like you're arguing for hedonism and mindless enjoyment. Some things make me think, if I'm not a huge fan of it.

quote:Should I do a survey instead? Should I ask pitchfork.com what they think? Should I ask my 4 year old niece what she thinks? Well perhaps I will...but their opinion will have no bearing on my own. Does this make sense?

No. You like what you like. I agree with that. But we're talking about the "value" of art, and at this point the values of society DO sort of matter. Even if the music is expressly rejecting those values and society rejects it. But i wasn't arguing for collectivism, I was arguing that your personal valuation of art should be more than just "Did I enjoy it?" The question, I believe, is more complex than that. Not everything is, as Graham Green would have called it, entertainments.

quote:Music is to be listened to and enjoyed. I either like something or I don't. If I'm asking questions about why I like something, or whether I should like something, that makes me a hipster, and I better go buy some skinny jeans and an ironic t-shirt or eight.

See, this shows that you put more value on music than just the sound of it and whether you enjoy it. Remove yourself from the statement and read it again. Look at that reflexive hatred of "hipsters", despite no one having brought it up. Look at the details you provided to this Other. There is obvious resentment of this fictional construct, and it is based on his presumed musical preferences. That's fascinating to me.

quote:The above doesn't make discussing music less interesting. Sure, I'm interested in hearing why people liked Dirty Projectors when I hated it. Will their opinion make me un-dislike it? Nope. But it's still interesting to talk about.

But what is there to discuss other than: "have you heard this?" Why does their "Why" even matter. It won't change how the music sounds to you. You've already made your arbitration and it seems like you're trying to get someone else to defend their worldview to you. In your world, the Dirty Projectors stink (actually, I don't like them either), someone else's different evaluation cannot affect yours. Music can have no quality, as it differs by the person. You are the ultimate Relativist, except in your own world, in which you are a godlike arbiter of quality. So is each other person. That is so cool.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by Baloo on 10/12/12 at 12:43 pm to bobbyray21)

quote:That doesn't mean that I believe that people that like Nickelback are terrible human beings, or that I don't value their opinions. It's just that their opinions are wrong.

But how can it be wrong? They heard it. They enjoyed it. By your definition, it is quality to them. Unless you deny the possibility of each person to have their own ability to gauge quality. You are the Only One who can.

re: Best Current Rock Band?(Posted by Jester on 10/12/12 at 12:44 pm to Baloo)

quote:But how can it be wrong? They heard it. They enjoyed it. By your definition, it is quality to them. Unless you deny the possibility of each person to have their own ability to gauge quality. You are the Only One who can.