Because I am not the creator nor maintainer of any game engine at all. And since most of the work is already done, only in different places, it seems that would be just a matter of putting everything together.

I think his point was that xna is a tool set that is easily available, is preconfigured, and means you can just get on with the job of writing the game.

There isn't anything like that for Java, you have to pick the libraries you wish to use, download and install them separately, manage distribution etc. You can't just open an IDE, write Java, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared. It's an ease of use of the toolset rather than something to make writing games easier I think.

It sounds like he would like a version of eclipse that has a project template with jogl/jinput/ardor/jMonkeyEngine already there and waiting to go.

I *think* jMonkey might be the closest in that respect (it's been a while since I even looked).

There isn't anything like that for Java, you have to pick the libraries you wish to use, download and install them separately, manage distribution etc. You can't just open an IDE, write Java, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared.

Java is a programming language, XNA is a collection of libraries. That's like saying you can't just whip out an IDE, write C#, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared. In fact, Java comes out ahead in a scenario like this.

Not any more or less as fast than its java counterparts. You still need to handle all your game logic, rendering, collisions. databases etc etc.

But with XNA you get to the point of writing all that stuff quicker, I don't use it, that's my choice, I prefer Java as a language, I believe that Java is a more productive language. The OP is obviously interested in alternatives too, but doesn't have the experience we have with the range of libraries there are for games in Java. I think the OP was just after some ready assembled bundles of java game libs as a starting point.

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Java is a programming language, XNA is a collection of libraries.I don't understand. What makes XNA more easier to use than other gaming libraries? To get it "set up" you need to import the required things in VS anyway, like you would do with any other library.

The advantage of XNA is exactly the fact that is a collection of libraries and documentation, that's all the OP was after, a collection of Java game libraries.

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It sounds to me like he's not enjoying programming and would benefit from more straightforward approaches such as Game Maker or hire a programmer and he himself only do the Game Design/Art.

I got the impression the OP enjoyed the programming, just wanted to get to the coding part of writing games instead of spending lots of time finding and evaluating the alternative java games libs.

Trolls be trolls. It is so blatantly obvious this guy is was trying to troll by trash talking java on a java programming website. If you look up, people mention the libraries/single-download-do-all-work-utility he wanted in previous posts. This site normally is very good to newbies such as myself when we ask VALID questions that have something to do with java and coding games.

This guy had many chances and blew them all so he is gone. Thank God. I think his topics should be removed because they have nothing to do with anything other then trolling

Yup, saw those, hence the comment about *this* thread being a valid question. I agree that the others should be deleted or locked, but this one is a valid question and should have been treated as such.

I didn't think that first instance referred to there was trolling, just an opening for discussion.

I am irked by community attitude here sometimes. Endolf's response was accurate and well thought out; other posts in this thread really just seemed to be either deliberately missing the point to try and wind longino up or just plain trolling.

That has to go both ways. I try to be tolerant because I really like the usually laid back attitude that rules this forum, but when you converse the way that longino does... its hard not to take the bait.

As for XNA being the the only thing available, there is also SlimDX which I would call the "libgdx" way to dev games using C#:

Not any more or less as fast than its java counterparts. You still need to handle all your game logic, rendering, collisions. databases etc etc.

But with XNA you get to the point of writing all that stuff quicker, I don't use it, that's my choice, I prefer Java as a language, I believe that Java is a more productive language. The OP is obviously interested in alternatives too, but doesn't have the experience we have with the range of libraries there are for games in Java

I don't think that's true. XNA isn't some magic library that suddenly does things better and faster than other libraries IMHO. I've only worked on 4 XNA projects, so I'm definitely no expert.

I don't understand. I don't think anyone's riding on a high horse in here. The only reason I mentioned Game Maker is because he ignored LibGDX and it seemed to me that he might find it useful. It's not an insult, GM is great. Although these days it's quite expensive for the full version :o

There's scope for someone to come up with some RAD tool based on libgdx underneath to compete with Unity I suppose. The real problem of course being that Java is more or less tied to the desktop and its browser plugin is still completely lame.

I think someone more knowledgeable on the subject (Roquen? theagentd) will come along and correct me but I have a feeling that these engines are maybe not scene graphs in the "traditional" sense. Even Wikipedia has rather vague definition.

With most modern engines, the scenegraph is there at development time so you can drag and drop nodes in a big tree. At runtime, this gets baked into some spatial partitioning system that doesn't use the naive recursive renderer of a scenegraph. It's still a very valid conceptual model, if a somewhat obsolete runtime one.

I think it's a combination of accelerated growth and (new) members trying to establish themselves by being loud, stating opinions that are not fully thought through, occasionally intentionally insulting.

Ontopic:

IMHO 'graphs' are mainly useful for creating a hierarchy for transformations, like holding a weapon or moving around in a vehicle. The more 'meta-data' you add to the nodes (lighting, color, texture, alpha) the more of a mess it becomes. Typically your geometrical graph doesn't quite fit the graph of the other properties, leading to hacks / ugly code to work around these issues.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings!

Regarding forum personality: I had a high intensity ranking at one point. I think it's just how I tend to drive a conversation. Even though I give strong opinions, I'm always interested in learning more (and changing my opinions). Unfortunately, in my relatively brief experience here, some of the members focus on the negative and make little attempt to be cordial at all, sadly perpetuating the "jaded programmer" stereotype. I like what JGO is all about, but the community is not what I would call friendly.

On to my jaded opinion on Java+Games: Sun, and now Oracle, have never known what to do for the end-user, and games are all about the end-user. Applets offer a terrible user experience (Adobe got it right with Flash). Java is a language by developers and for developers. There is no good reason users should have to know what language anything is written in, but it takes a lot of work to hide Java from players, even with desktop applications.

On to being full of myself: I was at the first Java Game Conference (at JavaONE 2003). Three Rings Design (PuzzlePirates) presented, which was neat, but overall, the atmosphere was depressed and corporate. I recall Sun was pushing some Java Gaming API, which turned out to be nothing more than a Web page with hyperlinks to the Java2D, Sound, Keyboard, and Joystick JavaDocs. Now that's weak.

More overstated opinions: Regarding the original thread of discussion, I've been fed the it just works line before, and it tends to come from folks that like to stack up blocks rather than construct with an Erector Set. Either can build fine software, but the former is less interested in the nuts and bolts of constructing the framework. This community, for better or worse, is the latter (and I plan to stay).

Regarding forum personality: I had a high intensity ranking at one point. I think it's just how I tend to drive a conversation. Even though I give strong opinions, I'm always interested in learning more (and changing my opinions).

Don't expect the rankings to have any meaning. An SQL query certainly can't figure out the way you communicate, let alone whether you're mindlessly rambling or in an intense discussion about stuff that matters. Those rankings are purely there for my amusement (except for the numberwangers listing, that's serious).

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings!

Regarding forum personality: I had a high intensity ranking at one point. I think it's just how I tend to drive a conversation. Even though I give strong opinions, I'm always interested in learning more (and changing my opinions).

Don't expect the rankings to have any meaning. An SQL query certainly can't figure out the way you communicate, let alone whether you're mindlessly rambling or in an intense discussion about stuff that matters. Those rankings are purely there for my amusement (except for the numberwangers listing, that's serious).

Yes, I understand. Soon after fining these forums, I found the social numerical analysis to be a very amusing (and unique) feature, so I wanted to point it out in regards to the personality profiling prolific in this post. Regarding rambling ranking, I'm bent on bettering my present 'prone to prose' profile position. I apologize for my apparent aptitude for articulating ancillary articles of the argument. Adew.

I have been developing in Java for a long time and it puzzles me the state of things in it. Why is Java so bad for so many things? When it is glaringly obvious by the competition that there are better ways of doing things.

Java moves at a glacial pace.

Only in Java 8 we are getting closures and defender methods. And the impression I get is that it happened only because Java development was humiliated so badly that Sun/Oracle had no other choice. Does it really need to reach such a point?

Java is a pathetic non-competitor in gaming because of this "insular" attitude.

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