Conservatives deal with facts and reach conclusions; liberals have conclusions and sell them as facts.

The new brownshirts *UPDATED*

One of the most horrific things about both the Nazis and the Communists was the way in which they indoctrinated children. Children were encouraged to place the State — and especially the state’s leader, whether Hitler or Stalin — above the family, and to give their loyalty to the former, not the latter. Unhappy parents discovered that the state’s spy network extended to their own home, with their children, having been completely reprogrammed by the state, turning them in for whatever the average 9 year old deemed to be a treasonous infraction.

Thank of that as you view this video, which Kim Priestap found and posted at Wizbang. Kim doubts that this is what it pretends to be — a grassroots moment where hyper aware kids discover the beauty of the Obamessiah and suddenly burst into song. I agree with her, but I find it even more disturbing as a harbinger of our children being co-opted to the state:

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This is scary. It reminds me Germany during the the first Gulf war when kindergarten teachers took their students to anti-war marches. This is Bill Ayers social justice education and it is definitely too much for 5 year olds.

Mike Devx

I’m sure they began this choral indoctrination – oops, celebration – by all turning to the American flag, placing their hands over the hearts, and reciting the pledge of allegiance.

Jonas Goldberg, in “Liberal Fascism”, said that in America, fascism will not arrive via the brutality of a jackbooted SS, but hidden behind a smiley-face. This kind of sing-along indoctrination of children, specifically pointed toward a particular candidate rather than a philosophy, is precisely what he was talking about.

spiff580

Wow. That was probably one of the creepiest and distasteful things I have seen so far this political seasonI’m sure my disgust has more to do with the fact that I don’t support Obama, but I’m pretty sure that I would find that distasteful if I saw something like that in support of McCain as well.

Why do left wing parents feel it is necessary to rob children of their childhood and involve them in politics at that level? Why does the left wing see nothing wrong with having children speak for them, hiding behind them and using them as cover like cowards unable to speak or fight for themselves? It is all rather distasteful if you ask me.

All I saw was a bunch of innocent children who wanted to make their parents happy and a bunch of creepy adults who saw nothing wrong with exploiting their children so they themselves can feel good about themselves. I especially found the so called adult woman, who was leading the children, to be extra creepy.

Is that what is like in upper middle class liberal communities? The parents get together and force their children to participate in left wing activities, with no substance and context, so that the parents can feel good about themselves?

The indoctrination isn’t limited to kids.
I was listening to an interview with one of Obama’s advisors and the question posed by the interviewer, was to the effect, “Isn’t this financial crisis going to make it harder to rule and get your programs passed.” I was so taken aback the the word “rule”- shocked is a better word. The interviewer didn’t correct himself and the conversation went on.
I hadn’t noticed that president’s now rule the country. Soon I guess.

Gringo

I couldn’t listen to anymore than 30 seconds of it. As if “happiness and freedom” didn’t exist before ∅bama came on the scene. As if ∅bama and his crew have a monopoly on “happiness and freedom.”

I know I’m being contrary today. Can’t help it. Leave the children alone, damn it!

I’d better clarify: The pledge of allegiance, singing “America the Beautiful”, and in the context of Christians doing Christian activities – prayers and hymns that are not directed at a specific Government Leader – all are perfectly fine to me!

It’s the impulse towards deification of The Great Leader, and the indoctrination of children, that is so profoundly un-American, that fits any definition of fascism you’d care to propose.

I find the video of what this woman did to the children, with the President Bush cutout, to be as disturbing as this creepy singalong video which, if Confederate Yankee can be trusted, was given assistance by Jeff Zucker, television executive and President & CEO of NBC Universal.

Mike Devx

My God, I’ve become an Ozzie pod-person!

I didn’t watch Ozzie’s link. If it includes religious training or patriotism, I’m all for that. I’d disagree strongly with Ozzie’s point. I’m glad Ozzie agreed that the Obama worshipping singalong was creepy.

http://conservativlib.wordpress.com/ eric-odessit

Ozzie,
Any worship of Bush, McCain or Obama is equally creepy. Any leader worship, past or present, is creepy. I should know: I grew up with it. Now those creeps came out with children book about Obama. Check it out (warning: shameless plug):http://conservativlib.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/cult-of-personality/
If you do read this post of mine, please believe that the story of that picture of my dad’s kindergarten class is true and dead serious. That is what any cult of personality leads too.
Eric.

Gringo

From 1952-1968, “Big Brother” Bob Emery had a children’s TV show on WBZ TV in Boston, continuing what he had done on radio for decades. Part of the show entailed listening to “Hail to the Chief” while a picture of the current president was shown. I occasionally watched the show, but was not indoctrinated.

Ozzie

My God, I’ve become an Ozzie pod-person!- Mike

ha!

The worship of George Bush at Jesus Camp was just one slice of cringe-inducing indoctrination took place during the Bush years.

At one of Sarah Palin’s chruches, the pastors warned that anyone who criticized President Bush during Hurricane Kartina would go to hell.

I find authoritarianism and indoctrination creepy all the way around.

spiff580

Leave it to Ozzie to find the evangelical angle.

Sure, right wing religious nut jobs do it too, I get it. Oh yeah, the evangelicals are taking over too, blah, blah, blah.

I don’t see the use of children as political tools celebrated by the right quite as much as I do on the left. Nor have I ever seen the deification of a candidate quite like I have seen this season with Obama. Perhaps that’s because I live in a very liberal state or the venues I choose to get my news from. I don’t know.

I’m also disturbed that the Left need to use children to get their points across. They throw them forward and hide behind them like human shields. They hold up childish logic as a valid debate points. Their parents seem to get all happy and excited when their kids can spout partisan drivel on YouTube and TV on demand. I guess bumper stickers aren’t working so well for them.

Nope, exploitation of children for political gain is not exclusive to any side. Nor is the use of childish and adolescent antics and logic during a campaign. But one side sure seems to excel and celebrate at it though.

Spiff

BrianE

Ozzie said:

At one of Sarah Palin’s chruches, the pastors warned that anyone who criticized President Bush during Hurricane Kartina would go to hell.

Did all the pastors get up at once and begin chanting in unison, or did they come up front one at a time?
OK, I’ll bite, give me the quote and a link please.

Mike Devx

Gringo #10 says

From 1952-1968, “Big Brother” Bob Emery had a children’s TV show on WBZ TV in Boston, continuing what he had done on radio for decades. Part of the show entailed listening to “Hail to the Chief” while a picture of the current president was shown. I occasionally watched the show, but was not indoctrinated.

Gringo, I agree. Completely. Notice that Mr. Emery did this for sixteen years, through both Democrat and Republican presidents, and clearly it was therefore not focused on any one Great Leader. It was therefore an honorific directed at the President practically as a symbol, and it did not matter who occupied the seat.

“The church’s senior pastor, Ed Kalnins, has said a number of things in his sermons that give pause. In 2004, he made it clear he was referring to Sen. John Kerry when he said, “If you vote for this particular person, I question your salvation. I’m sorry.” Following Hurricane Katrina in 2005, Kalnins said that those who criticized President Bush will go to hell. “I hate criticisms towards the President, because it’s like criticisms towards the pastor–it’s almost like, it’s not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That’s what it’ll get you.”

Ozzie,
If you follow the link in the article that you link to, it takes you to the home page of the church. On that page are links to over one hundred different sermons. The authors make no attempt to identify which sermons the quotes are from.
I want the full context of the quotes to determine the validity of the authors point.
However, by reading the rest of the article, you can observe that they out right lie.

Pastor Kalnins classified the 9/11 attacks and the later war in Iraq as part of a larger conflict “contending for your faith,” and Palin has indicated that she sees the “War on Terror” as a holy war.

From the ABC Gibson interview, we know that this statement is false.

This past June, Palin returned to visit the church. She told the congregation, “God’s will has to be done. . . . [Government activity] doesn’t do any good if the people’s heart isn’t right with God. . . . We can work together to make sure that God’s will be done.” ( Snip ), It gets worse.

These writers try and pass this as a sign that Palin is a religious nut.

Concerns also have been raised about Palin’s connection to the Alaska Independence Party, and its connections to a controversial Christian nationalist movement known as Reconstructionism.

This too has been shown to be false. Palin was never a member of this group.

How much of this nonsense does Sarah Palin believe? Who knows? But given these connections, she should tell us.

This is the last line of the article.
These writers are clearly anti-religion. This article is more innuendo that fact.
Given the writers predetermined outlook, I do not trust this to be accurate.

BrianE

The source you reference is an opinion piece on the website On Faith by Robert S. McElvaine. McElvaine’s website lists his bio as “Elizabeth Chisholm Professor of Arts and Letters and Chair of the Department of History at Millsaps College in Jackson, Mississippi and a longtime Democratic and progressive activist.”

OK, not the most reliable source, but here’s the paragraph from his opinion piece you referenced.

Following Hurricane Katrina in 2005, Kalnins said that those who criticized President Bush will go to hell. “I hate criticisms towards the President, because it’s like criticisms towards the pastor–it’s almost like, it’s not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That’s what it’ll get you.”

We’ll assume for the moment that McElvaine has a secret source to a 2005 message by a pastor of a church that Palin hasn’t attended since 2002.

Now what in the world is the pastor saying. If you criticize me (your pastor), you’re going to hell? I know pastors are thin skinned, and I know some that don’t like criticism, but I’ve never heard any of them claim salvation was dependent on not criticizing a pastor. Obviously we need more of the text to make any sense of this quote.

Ozzie, let’s stay with facts.

Anyway, I’m going to invoke the Obama defense. Not only was she not listening the Sunday of this sermon, she missed that sermon by three years.
There, everything OK?

Ozzie

The source you reference is an opinion piece on the website On Faith by Robert S. McElvaine- Brian

Brian, you asked me to find a link and I provided one. I didn’t even remember where I read it.

But, since you just want to cast doubt on any source i give you and tell me to “stick to the facts,” I found another article that also cited this preacher’s statement regarding how hell awaits Bush’s Katrina crtics, which actually gave a link to the sermon, which was recorded.

The recorded sermons aren’t as startling as the YouTubes of Sarah Palin being blessed by another extremist Witch Doctor preacher, but the proof is there, since you like facts.

Deana

Ozzie –

I agree with Rockdalian. If you follow the link that is attached to the phrase “his sermons,” you are taken directly to the church’s sermon recordings.

Ozzie, those recordings only go back to September 2006. But this opinion piece you refer to is using this link to prove what this pastor said back in 2004 and 2005.

Look, Ozzie, he may have said what you think he said but that link is not proof of it.

Deana

Ozzie

Palin hasn’t attended since 2002. = Brian

There is a video from this past June, in which Palin speaks at the Wasilla Assembly of God, wherein she credits a visiting witchdoctor with making her Alaska’s Governor. Said preacher is also seen praying over Sarah, hoping that she will be spared from withcraft.

BrianE

Ozzie, I’ll even accept that the quote is accurate, if you’ll agree it is out of context.
It leads once to the conclusion that criticizing the President or the pastor leads to hell.
That doesn’t make sense, so I would like to see it in the broader context.
But Deanna is right, the link doesn’t have sermons archived before September 2006.
If you attend church, even a “fundamentalist” church, it would be an odd thing for a pastor to say, although I can see it in a metaphorical context, where criticism serves no purpose but to stir up discord, problems, etc. Not literal hell.
I doubt if you ever told someone to got to hell, you meant hell in the literal sense.

Ozzie

Ozzie, I’ll even accept that the quote is accurate, if you’ll agree it is out of context- Brian

I dont know if it’s out of context or not.

Given this video, it’s clear that Sarah Palin’s churches are “differerent.”.

Ymarsakar

wherein she credits a visiting witchdoctor with making her Alaska’s Governor.

What possible personal prejudices would you have to have against Sarah, witches, doctors, governors, and religion to believe that?

Mike Devx

When Christians are doing outreach into Africa, to proselytize and spread the faith, it appears they should attack those of different faith, rather than accomodate them.

Isn’t it funny that multiculturalists are attacking Sarah Palin for being merely respectful to a visiting practiting Christian of another continent, no matter how extremely odd that variant of Christianity may seem to you and I?

I hear she gave the same respect yet again at the U.N. recently to another African practitioner of an unknown religion. Harlot! Blasphemer! Wicked Woman! She Must Burn!

All joking aside, I heard she pulled the “witch doctor” aside and told him she was just dying to join his congregation, to worship with him, and absorb his sermons every weekend. For twenty years. Buy his sermons and listen to them on her plane rides while she pens her autobiography, “Antlers Of Hope”.

Ozzie

What possible personal prejudices would you have to have against Sarah, witches, doctors, governors, and religion to believe that? Ymar

This pastor led a crusade to chase a women from her home and riled up angry citizens to try to stone the “demonic” woman.

From the London Times:

The pastor whose prayer Sarah Palin says helped her to become governor of Alaska founded his ministry with a witchhunt against a Kenyan woman who he accused of causing car accidents through demonic spells.. . At a speech at the Wasilla Assembly of God on June 8 this year, Mrs Palin described how Thomas Muthee had laid his hands on her when he visited the church as a guest preacher in late 2005, prior to her successful gubernatorial bid.

In video footage of the speech, she is seen saying: “As I was mayor and Pastor Muthee was here and he was praying over me, and you know how he speaks and he’s so bold. And he was praying “Lord make a way, Lord make a way.”

“And I’m thinking, this guy’s really bold, he doesn’t even know what I’m going to do, he doesn’t know what my plans are. And he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it. He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”. .

The full Transformations video featuring Pastor Muthee’s story has recently been removed from YouTube but the rest of the story is detailed in a 1999 article in the Christian Science Monitor, as well as on numerous evangelical websites.

According to the Christian Science Monitor, six months of fervent prayer and research identified the source of the witchcraft as a local woman called Mama Jane, who ran a “divination” centre called the Emmanuel Clinic.

Her alleged involvement in fortune-telling and the fact that she lived near the site of a number of fatal car accidents led Pastor Muthee to publicly declare her a witch responsible for the town’s ills, and order her to offer her up her soul for salvation or leave Kiambu.

Says the Monitor, “Muthee held a crusade that “brought about 200 people to Christ”.” They set up round-the-clock prayer intercession in the basement of a grocery store and eventually, says the pastor “the demonic influence – the ‘principality’ over Kiambu –was broken”, and Mama Jane fled the town.

If there was a vido of Obama being prayed over by a Witch Doctor who cruelly led a crusade againt a women and called for his brand of Chrisitans to take over the government, and the schools and the banks, etc, you’ might understand why this is so weird.

Ymarsakar

This pastor led a crusade to chase a women from her home and riled up angry citizens to try to stone the “demonic” woman.

So Presidents and Vice-Presidents are expected to shake the hands of mass murderers like Amanie and Saddam Hussein and Code Pinkos, but they have to be impolite to pastors that have not been put in jail for breaking a law?

The rule of law is what matters, not the imprecise and biased judgment of either the mob or you. You cannot override the rule of law and claim something improper has been done, when it hasn’t been done.

“And I’m thinking, this guy’s really bold, he doesn’t even know what I’m going to do, he doesn’t know what my plans are. And he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it. He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”. .

I doubt you can claim Sarah’s accent as being the cause for why you are making something out of nothing here. THere’s nothing incriminating or even vaguely suggestive of Sarah’s quote there.

If there was a vido of Obama being prayed over by a Witch Doctor who cruelly led a crusade againt a women and called for his brand of Chrisitans to take over the government, and the schools and the banks, etc, you’ might understand why this is so weird.

When Obama’s supporters are willing to let tens of millions of Iraq to suffer and die for simply daring to claim better lives for their children, you have no credibility on talking about “cruelty”. You have no consistency here.

If the pastor broke a US law, then let the system do its thing. Unless, of course, he’s not from the US, which obviously means that he can’t have much influence on Palin, now can he.

You are grasping at straws. The injustices you quote here are minor compared to the major injustices you are willing to accept in Obama’s stead. I neither accept minor nor major injustices simply because I do not believe that is the way to benefit me or Sarah. ANd Sarah would agree, but Obama wouldn’t. And neither do you given your beliefs about how it is appropriate that there are fallen heroes, Oz.

If tragedy is such a cruel and weird thing, Oz, why do you seek to glorify it and promote it while I am disgusted by it and seek to end it?

Ymarsakar

Technically, if there was a video of Obama conducting diplomacy with foreigner representatives of a religious or political nature, I would expect Obama to act like an adult, not a religious or criminal prosecutor interrogating a witness.

Our problems with Obama’s beliefs are not due to his public associations. It is due to his hidden, corrupt, and private associations that he said he would never reject, and then rejected when the political wind turned against him.

Obama’s pastor, Wright, was part of his family and Obama could no more disown him than he could disown his own racist grandmother.

Then Obama disowned and rejected Wright. Very convenient.

Sarah Palin would have to have a lot more flaws in her character and integrity before she could even get close to that kind of of vice and corruption.

All you have demonstrated here, Oz, is that you don’t like how she represents her state when meeting foreigners on TV. Didn’t anybody ever tell you that the worth of a person’s actions are best seen in the dark, when they think nobody is looking?

Like Sarah Palin’s hacked email accounts that had no dirt at all in them. Amazing, isn’t it that her private life is just as clean as her public persona. Are her opponents reduced to trying to tie her in public with people unconnected with her in any family or political relationship, simply because Sarah is too pure privately?

Ymarsakar

Sarah Palin believes in God. Why would she believe God could be influenced simply by a foreigner? God listens to a witch doctor who cruelly hounded somebody in Kenya by doing what the witch doctor told GOd to do? Is that the best you can portray God as, Oz, as some kind of servant of evil and mendacious folks?

That’s not the God Sarah Palin believes in. You would have known that if you had tried to respect and understand Sarah’s beliefs.

suek

And Obama supported Odinga…is that ok with you?

I mean…sharia and all that…

Ozzie

That’s not the God Sarah Palin believes in. You would have known that if you had tried to respect and understand Sarah’s beliefs.- Ymar

I was raised a Christian. Everyone I knew was raised a Christian. Most of us knew that the earth is not only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs never walked the earth with men.

There is a difference between people who believe in God (as I do) and fundamentalists who believe it’s their mission to meld Church and State.

Palin has a pastor problem, as did Obama.

The differnce, however, is celar. I don’t see him catering to Evangelicals who have a stated political agenda.

Interesting. Do you believe God is knowable?
Does God direct the affairs of humans?
Is Jesus God?

Deana

Well, Ozzie, Obama may not be catering to agenda-driven Evangelicals but only a blind fool would believe that Obama didn’t spend years catering to a religious group with an extreme and dangerous political agenda until he realized that it was likely to undermine his chance at the Presidency.

But we aren’t supposed to remember that.

Deana

Ozzie

Well, Ozzie, Obama may not be catering to agenda-driven Evangelicals but only a blind fool would believe that Obama didn’t spend years catering to a religious group with an extreme and dangerous political agenda until he realized that it was likely to undermine his chance at the Presidency.

But we aren’t supposed to remember that.

Deana

But the difference is that Obama wasn’t picked soley to appeal to those with a dangerous political agenda, who have already tried to jam their agenda through Congress.

Palin was.

Ozzie

Interesting. Do you believe God is knowable? – Brian

God is a concept that seems to be different for people across the world..Anyone who thinks that their way is THE way (and seeks power in the process) gets a thumbs down from me.

So, no, I dont think people can know God. They can only try to behave according to what they believe is His will.

Does God direct the affairs of humans? Brian

I have no idea. And neither does anyone else.

Is Jesus God? -Brian

Once again, I don’t know.

I was raised Catholic and in addition to the Father and Son,the Holy Ghost was thrown in the mix, too. As you might have guessed, I tended to question everything, and thought much of what they taught in Catechism simply could not be true.

Jesus could be a number of things.

I won’t know the truth until the day I die.

Mike Devx

In reply to Ozzie #28, the long post outlining a relationship between Sarah Palin and Pastor Muthee.

My goal is actually to be as concise as possible while wrapping up with a refutation of what Ozzie later said in #33:Palin has a pastor problem, as did Obama.

Here we have Ozzie performing complete moral equivalency: They each have the same problem to the same degree. This is his conclusion based I think on the information provided in #28. This use of complete moral equivalency is the usual trap.

So let me begin with Obama. (And remember Mike: brevity!) He spent 20 years under Rev. Wright. He attended the sermons many, many times. He formed a close personal relationship. He has described this relationship in his books and lately in speeches in ways that contradict each other, but that’s par for his course: obfuscation. He takes Wright’s sermons with him on plane trips to listen to them.

Obama claims to have no knowledge of all the incredibly outrageous statements by Rev. Wright and has never explained the depth of his knowledge of Black Liberation Theology, the guiding force behind Rev. Wright’s church.

Examine the titles of the ten speeches. Nothing will leap out at you. More on this later.

It is described that he laid his hands on her and prayed (see #38). She found this bold and also said the following:he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it. He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”

Just exactly what is objectionable about *that*? It’s the standard graceful way of asking solely for a door to be opened and to be aligned with God’s will. I’m agnostic, I don’t get it myself, but it doesn’t get any more graceful than that. To respect faith is to allow this kind of prayer, under any and all conditions.

And now we come to the trick: The story immediately segues into the past history of Pastor Muthee, and does so seamlessly. The inference is subtle but clear: Sarah Palin *knows* all this sordid history of what was done to that woman in Africa. Based on what? She was never there, and certainly not for twenty years. She never had a close personal relationship with him. The relationship can be described as: He gave a week’s worth of sermons at her church in a manner that suggests a conference, as the title of the last one is “Bringing the Whole Week Together”.

This is the complete story. That’s it.

It strains credulity, at least to me, that based on that, I am supposed to link Sarah Palin to what happened in Africa. I am not required to prove she didn’t know. You are required to prove she did. I am not going to listen to all ten speeches to clear them of objectionable content. For one, sending each of us off to individually listen to all the sermons sounds like a classic Alinsky tactic, and I’m not falling for it. The requirement of proof is on the accuser. And I am sure the Palin haters have already scoured those speeches for content, word by word. I am certain of that. There’s no there there.

What you are left with, then, is a comparison of Barack Obama’s history with Reverend Wright and Sarah Palin’s history with Pastor Muthee. There is absolutely no way I see a direct moral equivalency between the two where you could claim an equality.

In closing, one is free to claim there’s no smoking gun proving Obama in the pews during one of Rev. Wright’s more blistering sermons. But the circumstancial evidence is far, far more overwhelming when you weigh that evidence against what is presented against Sarah Palin.

I reject the claim of moral equivalency of this comparison. Absent the evidence, I reject even the claim that Sarah Palin has a “pastor problem” at all. Just because the pastor has a problem doesn’t mean that she has a pastor problem.

You’re free to disagree.

Ymarsakar

I was raised a Christian. Everyone I knew was raised a Christian. Most of us knew that the earth is not only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs never walked the earth with men.

There is a difference between people who believe in God (as I do) and fundamentalists who believe it’s their mission to meld Church and State.

But the difference is that Obama wasn’t picked soley to appeal to those with a dangerous political agenda, who have already tried to jam their agenda through Congress.

The difference is that Palin was picked because of a belief in diversity of ideas and the importance of individual free will in terms of self-defense and free speech.

Peopl’e reasons and their actions do not conveniently fit into this closed off box of yours, Oz, simply because it is your belief that it is so. Regardless of what you know as a Christian, regardless of what you believe, and regardless of what you believe Sarah believes, it has no impact on what Sarah actually believes.

Palin has a pastor problem, as did Obama.

False equivalency.

There is no such thing as a “pastor problem”. There is such a thing as virtue, vice, evil, good, weakness, and strength. These are objective. You attempt to equivalate your problem with Sarah with our problem with Obama as if it was just dependent upon subjective viewpoints. It isn’t. It’s an objective criteria we use to apply to Obama. Unfortunately, objective criterias have more stringent standards than the subjective criteria that says Sarah Palin believes in this and was chosen because of this because that is how you would like to see it as, Oz.

Ymarsakar

Canno4 said that this video was pulled because of “copyright” violations over the music.