The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

Listercat wrote:Go live in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece and see what socialist governments have done to their countries. Financial crisis after crisis. For every $ spent by governments someone who actually works has to pay for it. Socialists do not understand how wealth is created. Read some Adam Smith FFS.

Who's talking about socialism?

That's just a red herring. Its not about stealing from the rich to give to the poor or a redistribution of wealth. all we are talking about here is a reasonable investment in people so basic health, welfare and education needs are met by the wealth generated from GDP and crown resources.

look at education in BC. Since Gordo education investment has flatlined.. The recent budget allows for a 1% increase I believe... Yet since 2000 technology has completelyRewritten the book on educating the young. Smart phones alone has changed the landscape never mind all the changes in resources from soup to nuts...

Do you think a BC classroom or highschool compares favourably to world class standards after being starved for money for the last dozen years ?? Seriously ?

You won't get an argument from me about meeting basic education and healthcare needs. Seriously, you won't. But I think the welfare system in this country is so badly abused that it needs a total revamp, the answer is not to throw more money at it.

As for technology and education, I encourage you to look at the studies that show strong correlations between advancing technology and obesity in children. Smart phones shouldn't even be in a child's hand at school. There is nothing wrong with using technology as a tool for learning, but not to the point where children, hell, even adults, become dependent upon it and it begins to erode the basic social skills required to actually interact with someone in person and not via a device.

As for a BC classroom being stacked up beside a world class system. No, it might not. But then again, a 2010 study puts Canadian education in the top 10 in the world.

The Globe and Mail noted, in 2010, that Ontario's education system earned a world ranking of "great" while actually managing to spend thousands of dollars less per pupil than other education systems that only earned a ranking of "good".

"The only thing the NDP was against was the pipeline expansion. They were supportive of LNG, but wanted to take a more cautious, conservative approach and see what the impacts of fracking were - ie. gas getting into water supplies, all the massive amounts of power required to do the fracking and "freeze" the gas, etc...

As far as when the NDP were in power before, its a myth that they "caused people pain", spread around by corporate supporters... The NDP actually were the first party to start throwing people off welfare - I remember newspaper headlines re people complaining. And the NDP also reduced government employees by 10%.

Everyone forgets that the Feds offloaded Health care to the provinces in the 90's, so the NDP had to deal with that."~Chris Berr

Anyways the silver lining is the millionaires and people from UBC in the Point Grey area voted for the NDP/David Eby who is pro environment.

So now Christy, who is labeled 'the worst Education Minister in BC history', loses her seat has to have a byelection to take someone elses. This is 'the first time that a BC politician has become premier without winning a seat since 1924.'

ukcanuck wrote:Check out wages for a fully trained (privately paid) EMT in a UK city where average house prices are in the millions and a 25 % down payment is required

(25,000.00 a year )

So on average they slot in nicely between a skilled trade worker and an associate professional when it comes to average earnings. Ironically they make more than what registered nurse starts at.....

This was as of 2010. So it could have changed by now.

I'm a little confused though, are you trying to say that people make less in the UK than they do in Canada to do the same job? Are you trying to say that the cost of living is more in the United Kingdom?

I'm just seeking some clarification because if seems to me like you are stating the obvious.....and generally speaking you have a very hard time grasping that.

Edit: my figures are in pounds sterling about 1.5 to 1 dollar.The point is privatization, a Maggie thatcher iniative copied by North American right wingers, drives professional and skilled wages down so that middle class people such as yourself can barely make ends meet. you and your wife's wages would not qualify you for a mortgage without government assistance in the UK.

Public service jobs in a right wing economy cannot pay livable wages because taxes are kept artificially low.

Got to keep business interests happy right?

I assumed that your figures were in GBP, especially after I did a quick google search. My response took that into account.

Some of the reason that things are so difficult in the UK is the housing costs, which you mentioned.

Some of that is because as a country they have, or had, overly restrictive planning laws, not as much land to work with, a population that has grown while the development of new housing has been very slow. I would imagine property and housing prices would be stupid here if we had 63 million people crammed into an area that was barely more than 25% of the size of BC.

My wife and I made almost $150K last year. We are both in public service jobs. If BC Ambulance was run the same way as the rest of the emergency services are in this province we probably would have made between $165-$180K. But I don't get the overtime options she does. Take away her OT and we still made $125K.

This is the heart of the liberal's lie, its a common misconception propagated by the right and nicely ignored (topper) by those in the resource industry who want a friendly government to allow unfettered money making.

Read and weep while you digest the fact BC's economy was directly affected and effected by the following events....

Are you trying to blame what happened in the 1990s under NDP rule on black Monday in 1987? The NDP didn't even get into office until 1992.

If you actually want to look at the (relevant) numbers...

The NDP kept our net debt to GDP ratio at a reasonable level and it didn't fluctuate much up until 1998-1999 when it went from 10.9 to 19.0. At a time when the tech industry was absolutely *exploding* and almost every other province had their net debt to GDP ratio go down. Say what you will about external forces, considering all the facts at that time, that's evidence of gross mismanagement of the provincial economy. It's also around the same time BC got it's credit rating downgraded.

The Liberals got into power in 2001 and brought the net debt to GDP ratio down from 18 to around 12 before it started to creep back up to 16. Something that you could realistically blame on the recession, and something you'll see almost every province experience during that time period.

Of course, the province would have done better with the finances had people like Jim Sinclair not actively campaigned against the benefits of the HST (he will later no doubt complain about how little money the province has to pay teachers).

If you want to complain about a liberal lie, the one I've identified is "we'll pay down the debt in 15 years". Not only is it a lie, it's a stupid idea, and a great way to put the breaks on growth. Not that I'm against lowering it over time, but a province like BC should carry some debt.

The NDP was against the Northern Gateway and the Kinder Morgan pipelines. They also stated they would halt development of the Jumbo ski resort. they stated they would revert to the duplication environmental review process's with both a BC and a Federal process for proposed projects. I tried to get a comment from the local NDP candidate and the leader of the party on mining and specifically permitting of the Prosperity project but never received an answer.

Health care was not dumped on the provinces in the 90's. Read the BNA Act and the Canadian Constitution Act. if you are referring to Federal transfer payments, that is dictated by the Canadian Health Act and was implemented in 1984.

As for throwing people off welfare, I recall VanderZalm offering shovels in the 80's.

Recall also that the first time Christy became Premier she did not have a seat in the legislature.

Was Christy Education Minister when you were skipping classes and dropping out?

This is the heart of the liberal's lie, its a common misconception propagated by the right and nicely ignored (topper) by those in the resource industry who want a friendly government to allow unfettered money making.

Read and weep while you digest the fact BC's economy was directly affected and effected by the following events....

Are you trying to blame what happened in the 1990s under NDP rule on black Monday in 1987? The NDP didn't even get into office until 1992.

If you actually want to look at the (relevant) numbers...

The NDP kept our net debt to GDP ratio at a reasonable level and it didn't fluctuate much up until 1998-1999 when it went from 10.9 to 19.0. At a time when the tech industry was absolutely *exploding* and almost every other province had their net debt to GDP ratio go down. Say what you will about external forces, considering all the facts at that time, that's evidence of gross mismanagement of the provincial economy. It's also around the same time BC got it's credit rating downgraded.

The Liberals got into power in 2001 and brought the net debt to GDP ratio down from 18 to around 12 before it started to creep back up to 16. Something that you could realistically blame on the recession, and something you'll see almost every province experience during that time period.

Of course, the province would have done better with the finances had people like Jim Sinclair not actively campaigned against the benefits of the HST (he will later no doubt complain about how little money the province has to pay teachers).

If you want to complain about a liberal lie, the one I've identified is "we'll pay down the debt in 15 years". Not only is it a lie, it's a stupid idea, and a great way to put the breaks on growth. Not that I'm against lowering it over time, but a province like BC should carry some debt.

I'm am trying to point out that the economy in BC was already in the toilet before, during and immediately after the NDP were in power in the 90s and it was mainly to do with economic conditions elsewhere in the world and not solely because the NDP are or were a left wing government. If your concerned about a specific numbers why not look at world prices of BC'S main resources at the time and who BC's direct customers were? Maynard Keynes would have had trouble running this province in the 90s

I assumed that your figures were in GBP, especially after I did a quick google search. My response took that into account.

Some of the reason that things are so difficult in the UK is the housing costs, which you mentioned.

Some of that is because as a country they have, or had, overly restrictive planning laws, not as much land to work with, a population that has grown while the development of new housing has been very slow. I would imagine property and housing prices would be stupid here if we had 63 million people crammed into an area that was barely more than 25% of the size of BC.

My wife and I made almost $150K last year. We are both in public service jobs. If BC Ambulance was run the same way as the rest of the emergency services are in this province we probably would have made between $165-$180K. But I don't get the overtime options she does. Take away her OT and we still made $125K.

Damn this RW economy! How will we get by?

Thanks for proving my point. The UK is a decidedly more RIGHT wing after Thatcher than in BC. Privatization is fully implemented and wages for middle income semi professional and skilled labour is ridiculous by comparison. your career would take a beating.

your take home pay in BC is better because of its LEFT wing policies

Do a job search and check the want ads, 50 k jobs don't exist at the public service level and education and health care are two Tier and it REALLY matters how much money you have as to the level of either service you can afford versus quality. London is an awesome city, world class in many ways but its a dog eat dog place and its just in the liberals philosophical ballpark.

ukcanuck wrote:Thanks for proving my point. The UK is a decidedly more RIGHT wing after Thatcher than in BC. Privatization is fully implemented and wages for middle income semi professional and skilled labour is ridiculous by comparison. your career would take a beating.

your take home pay in BC is better because of its LEFT wing policies

Not sure how that "proved our point". It counters what you said about public service jobs not being in the vision of the Liberal party. It's been a Liberal party here for 12 years. If you are referring to the fact that I don't get OT, well that is because I am a "part-time" employee. They run a weird system here. Going to Alberta, an even more RW province than BC I would make more, my wife would make the same.

ukcanuck wrote:Do a job search and check the want ads, 50 k jobs don't exist at the public service level and education and health care are two Tier and it REALLY matters how much money you have as to the level of either service you can afford versus quality. London is an awesome city, world class in many ways but its a dog eat dog place and its just in the liberals philosophical ballpark.

What I do remember about NDP is the down grading of BC Credit rating but the biggest was when the Province became a have not. I mean I understand Quebec and their stupidity but BC and the natural resources and other business should never be a have not province.

Health Care is bloated cow that no government will ever tackle because of all the screaming special interest groups. Again as I said earlier, spend a nigh at the hospital and see how many people abuse the "free" system. I have a cold, my ankle is sore, I drank too much. I would like to see the hospitals start recovering costs from people involved in high speed accidents. Time to start holding people accountable for their actions instead of everyone paying for it.

The elderly are a forgotten generation and they deserve more, but we have to pay healthy little shits welfare because they are too lazy to get a job. Time to pull the plug on anyone who can work or put them to work cleaning the streets to earn their pay. I don't want another $200/year tax break, the Liberals went to far in some tax breaks as there are some social services that need additional funding.

Schools are fine, large classrooms have never been the problem, again it is the ESL, time to start making them pay for that when they come in. But I guess that would be considered racist. my wife is Japanese, if I moved there do you think that my kids will be put into a standard Japanese school, no I would need to put them in to a school that has English or home school but I would cover the cost. I was in a large class and it was fine, I went to college on my own dime, worked for the past 27 years with only 2 month off between jobs. Continue my education, work hard, get promoted and look after my non-working wife and 2 kids. I don't need any government handouts, I just want the hospital emergency room available when I need it.

Meds: the point is rather simple. In BC, a comparatively right of centre government ( your supposed liberal party) continues to put downward pressure on public service jobs through privatization and deregulation carrying on the policies of a true right wing British Conservative party and you applaud that.

In the UK, the conservative right has been successful in destroying unionism, and full privatization is rampant in all public sectors, private and public industry is deregulated and it has become the lowest common denominator as a matter of consequence.

The result? The pay sucks, job benefits are non exist any and job security is a joke. The proof is in the pudding, you and your wife make almost three times as much in the system you call garbage and wish to change and you react with glee when an election returns a government that continues to cut taxes and refuse to fund reasonable increases in fundamental health and education.

Like I said before, if you are a miner or rig worker I get it. You know what side of the bread your butter is on, fair enough you might have cause to celebrate.... But two health care workers laughing if up over The Lieberals win? Don't make sense.

uk - the health care system in Canada is broken and not amount of money can fix it. The number of seniors is one of the main issues plus the waste that occurs within the system. The people that are being outsourced are not medical people but cleaners and cafeteria type of workers where you don't need anything more than a grade 12 education. Why should they make twice what the private companies pay just because they work in a hospital? What a person is paid is based upon their education and experience and what they bring to the organization they belong to. Poor performers cannot be dealt with because of the union, seniority determines who gets a job not the most qualified. SO what happens is that you need to hire more to make up the poor performer.

Education is well funded as well, teachers make a very healthy wage for only working 9 months of the year and when they are only required to be in the school 6 hours a day. Again another system that is broken but the teachers union is strong and changes cannot be made to better the education for the students.

Reefer2 wrote:uk - the health care system in Canada is broken and not amount of money can fix it. The number of seniors is one of the main issues plus the waste that occurs within the system. The people that are being outsourced are not medical people but cleaners and cafeteria type of workers where you don't need anything more than a grade 12 education. Why should they make twice what the private companies pay just because they work in a hospital? What a person is paid is based upon their education and experience and what they bring to the organization they belong to. Poor performers cannot be dealt with because of the union, seniority determines who gets a job not the most qualified. SO what happens is that you need to hire more to make up the poor performer.

Education is well funded as well, teachers make a very healthy wage for only working 9 months of the year and when they are only required to be in the school 6 hours a day. Again another system that is broken but the teachers union is strong and changes cannot be made to better the education for the students.

Reef you contradict yourself. You say that people should be paid by what they bring to the table but you think teachers are well paid.

BC has the highest teacher certification standards in the world. It requires a bachelor degree in a teachable subject and a post degree professional development course for a degree in education. In total a minimum of 5 years investment plus about 60,000.00 in tuition and living expenses. In exchange for bringing that level of training to the table a starting teacher can expect about 40,000.00 dollars a year.

A manager of a Starbucks makes 50,000.00. You mention working 6 hours a day, 9 months a year. In reality a teacher is required to be available to administration or students till 8-5 mon to fri (40 hours) but way more importantly a teacher has to entertain and educate 150 kids a day everyday from sept to June that is no easy task and you underestimate the toll that takes.

Now I'm not saying its a day in a salt mine, but seriously by your standard shouldn't teachers make more for helping you raise your kids, teach them to be model citizens, than running a coffee shop?

As for the health system its not broken its underfunded plain and simple. The cost of curing illness has gone through the proverbial roof due to people living longer, and the high technology required to cure more and more illnesses. In the 50s if you had a dizzy spell and forgot your name for a few hours. The hospital could do no more than maybe give you an IV and watch you for a day or two.

Now its MRIs Cat Scans, Sonograms, blood tests and a so on. Each one of those is a multimillion dollar machine and a highly trained technician required to operate it and doctors specialized in reading the results.

Its a cute trick to blame the poor and the weak for why taxes are so high but it doesn't stand up to real scrutiny. Unfortunately people are quick to believe sound notes like if business is taxed they will leave the province and take their jobs. fear works. and its easiest to scare the willing.

ukcanuck wrote:Meds: the point is rather simple. In BC, a comparatively right of centre government ( your supposed liberal party) continues to put downward pressure on public service jobs through privatization and deregulation carrying on the policies of a true right wing British Conservative party and you applaud that.

In the UK, the conservative right has been successful in destroying unionism, and full privatization is rampant in all public sectors, private and public industry is deregulated and it has become the lowest common denominator as a matter of consequence.

The result? The pay sucks, job benefits are non exist any and job security is a joke. The proof is in the pudding, you and your wife make almost three times as much in the system you call garbage and wish to change and you react with glee when an election returns a government that continues to cut taxes and refuse to fund reasonable increases in fundamental health and education.

Here's the bottomline that I get from the majority of my co-workers as well as many of my wife's co-workers. If they slashed pay we would simply quit. Standard of care would drop from those who kept their jobs. If they privatized and the new employer wanted to pay less. We would quit. Working in healthcare can be a rewading job, some of the stuff we learn and get to do is absolutely fascinating, and when you can say that you've actually saved a life, or helped somebody manage an emergency, at the end of the day there that brings its own reward. However, the shit we have to put up with, look at, smell, hear, and touch, that can be less than fun. The responsibility we carry, morally, ethically, and legally, is incredibly high. If somebody came along and offered us $10-$15 an hour to do these jobs we would laugh in their face and go find work elsewhere. That might mean a totally different job.

Have you looked around the world at what the private sector is paying healthcare workers? Employers know what the job requires, they know they won't get people to do it for next to nothing. Especially when they consider the personal investment the employee makes for education and training in order to work in that field. If they were to make it a less desirable job financially then not only would they lose current employees, but they would have a difficult time recruiting new employees because young people would stop enrolling in those programs.

BC Ambulance is figuring out the hard way that when you run a system the way they have, suddenly you start to have a disgruntled employee base, and major recruitment issues because people want jobs that pay them a reasonable wage. Especially when that job piles on the responsibility that it does.....and that goes for any job in the health sector.

ukcanuck wrote:Meds: the point is rather simple. In BC, a comparatively right of centre government ( your supposed liberal party) continues to put downward pressure on public service jobs through privatization and deregulation carrying on the policies of a true right wing British Conservative party and you applaud that.

In the UK, the conservative right has been successful in destroying unionism, and full privatization is rampant in all public sectors, private and public industry is deregulated and it has become the lowest common denominator as a matter of consequence.

The result? The pay sucks, job benefits are non exist any and job security is a joke. The proof is in the pudding, you and your wife make almost three times as much in the system you call garbage and wish to change and you react with glee when an election returns a government that continues to cut taxes and refuse to fund reasonable increases in fundamental health and education.

Here's the bottomline that I get from the majority of my co-workers as well as many of my wife's co-workers. If they slashed pay we would simply quit. Standard of care would drop from those who kept their jobs. If they privatized and the new employer wanted to pay less. We would quit. Working in healthcare can be a rewading job, some of the stuff we learn and get to do is absolutely fascinating, and when you can say that you've actually saved a life, or helped somebody manage an emergency, at the end of the day there that brings its own reward. However, the shit we have to put up with, look at, smell, hear, and touch, that can be less than fun. The responsibility we carry, morally, ethically, and legally, is incredibly high. If somebody came along and offered us $10-$15 an hour to do these jobs we would laugh in their face and go find work elsewhere. That might mean a totally different job.

Have you looked around the world at what the private sector is paying healthcare workers? Employers know what the job requires, they know they won't get people to do it for next to nothing. Especially when they consider the personal investment the employee makes for education and training in order to work in that field. If they were to make it a less desirable job financially then not only would they lose current employees, but they would have a difficult time recruiting new employees because young people would stop enrolling in those programs.

BC Ambulance is figuring out the hard way that when you run a system the way they have, suddenly you start to have a disgruntled employee base, and major recruitment issues because people want jobs that pay them a reasonable wage. Especially when that job piles on the responsibility that it does.....and that goes for any job in the health sector.

yeah it would probably be just like you say, except the people who would be making a living wage would very few.

Good doctors, ones with degree from recognisable schools (Harvard, Oxbridge, McGill) would make money hand over fist and it will be a small fortune to see one.

The rest of us get completely exhausted and overburdened Mumbai U grads.

Technicians who know how to operate and fix the multimillion dollar machines will make good money.

Head nurses with experience will make moderate money

Every body else can easily be trained and replaced get minimum wage no full time hours and no basic benefits beyond legislated ones.

This is how it is in the UK which has bastardized their free NHS in the way Christy and her party would LOVE to do if they could get away with it.

I guess if you have the money and don't mind stepping over lepers in the gutters its awesome cause line ups are non existent if you have excess money after your season tickets.

You think this is socialist blather, but its just common logic.

here's the bottom line....BC liberals and Federal Conservatives want the system that they have in the UK, they can lower the debt and cut corporate taxes and reduce resource royalties and create huge wealth for a few, with privatisation and deregulation.

All they need are two half truths: we can't afford it, and its all the poor's fault they're lazy and choose to be that way and dont deserve it.