Meds wrote: ($2.45M) is actually more money than the average person in North America will make in 50 years, and that is assuming an average salary of $50K per year ]

Using your number 2.4 mil x 500= 1.2 billion about one third of total (3.3 billion.) is it so unreasonable that the players want to keep that and is 1/3-2/3 such a bad split? considering that the owners keep 100% of franchise values?

if it isnt, and your happy to see the owners make the lion's share, doesn't it bother you that not nearly as much of that money comes back to society as taxes than when its in the players hands? How many social programs or hospital beds is that when Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans? In fact multiply whatever that number is by all of the big 4 pro sports...

Just once id like to see the rich man take one up the ass for a change. taxpayers and the little guy have been bent over enough

Sorry if you dont think of a 2.4 millionaire as a little guy but he sure as shit aint a rich guy

Meds wrote: ($2.45M) is actually more money than the average person in North America will make in 50 years, and that is assuming an average salary of $50K per year ]

Using your number 2.4 mil x 500= 1.2 billion about one third of total (3.3 billion.) is it so unreasonable that the players want to keep that and is 1/3-2/3 such a bad split? considering that the owners keep 100% of franchise values?

if it isnt, and your happy to see the owners make the lion's share, doesn't it bother you that not nearly as much of that money comes back to society as taxes than when its in the players hands? How many social programs or hospital beds is that when Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans? In fact multiply whatever that number is by all of the big 4 pro sports...

Just once id like to see the rich man take one up the ass for a change. taxpayers and the little guy have been bent over enough

Sorry if you dont think of a 2.4 millionaire as a little guy but he sure as shit aint a rich guy

First of all if you bothered to quote me, you should quote that I said I support them fighting to keep their salaries and existing contracts. Secondly, where do you get 500 from? If you go by 20 players and 30 teams that is 600 players minimum. I believe the actual number is around 726 or something.....

As for the taxes....well that drops significantly when you consider that there are only 7 teams in Canada....

And when the poor guy is making 2.4 million per year.....he's rich.

And it's not just the money, as I've said, it is the attitude that many of these players have expressed that they DESERVE to be paid $X to play hockey.....

Meds wrote: ($2.45M) is actually more money than the average person in North America will make in 50 years, and that is assuming an average salary of $50K per year ]

Using your number 2.4 mil x 500= 1.2 billion about one third of total (3.3 billion.) is it so unreasonable that the players want to keep that and is 1/3-2/3 such a bad split? considering that the owners keep 100% of franchise values?

if it isnt, and your happy to see the owners make the lion's share, doesn't it bother you that not nearly as much of that money comes back to society as taxes than when its in the players hands? How many social programs or hospital beds is that when Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans? In fact multiply whatever that number is by all of the big 4 pro sports...

Just once id like to see the rich man take one up the ass for a change. taxpayers and the little guy have been bent over enough

Sorry if you dont think of a 2.4 millionaire as a little guy but he sure as shit aint a rich guy

First of all if you bothered to quote me, you should quote that I said I support them fighting to keep their salaries and existing contracts. Secondly, where do you get 500 from? If you go by 20 players and 30 teams that is 600 players minimum. I believe the actual number is around 726 or something.....

As for the taxes....well that drops significantly when you consider that there are only 7 teams in Canada....

And when the poor guy is making 2.4 million per year.....he's rich.

And it's not just the money, as I've said, it is the attitude that many of these players have expressed that they DESERVE to be paid $X to play hockey.....

I didn't think I was arguing with you about whether a contract was a contract, or whether you think that the current players deserve what's coming to them. Even the hardest league supporter cant argue that...Can they?

Anyway, I thought you asked philosophically how anyone can support the players, and since I've been pretty vocal about it, I thought I would be philosophical abut it in kind. As for being precise about estimates, nobody can be precise, because we can't be precise about all the numbers.

Only the players income is public knowledge. I've mentioned this before and it seems to be over looked. The owners do not have to show their books to anyone other than the taxman, thats including the players. the numbers they release to the PA and the rest of us academics and laymen alike are the numbers they choose to release and you can bet your ass, seriously, the real numbers are a closely guarded secret.

Even by the , IMHO, faulty logic that the players are greedy for wanting more of the pie. It doesn't make sense for the owners to be upfront and giving when it comes to telling the world exactly, to the penny, what the real numbers are. Hell even with the numbers that we do know, the Percent of HRR slides up and down 10 or more points. ten points on the published figure is a lot of cash. How can we be sure that the real number isn't ten points more yet? Do you really trust Gary Bettman? really? his only loyalty is to himself.

As far as its only the seven Canadian teams, half the league is Canadian and dont kid yourself they are all, even the American and European players paying some Canadian taxes. if your income is 2.4 mil your in the 50% tax bracket in both countries give or take. plus since when aren't there sick and needy people in the US too.

The point remains, as rank and file John Q Publics, we have a more vested interest to see more money in the player's hands.

If you think like Tit Romney and the 50,000 a plate fund raiser fat cats (who I am pretty sure the predominace of owners are members of that class of people) do. That half the people out there are lazy fucks who don't deserve a hand out, well think about unused money siting in offshore accounts every time you cross that fancy new Port Mann bridge...

While 2.4 million does seem like a lot and is a lot more than you and I make (assumption.) Its not that much that it doesn't put players that far from the average guy. Plus its an average. How many of the seven hundred are actually walking away with that? How many 4th liners and 7th and 8th Dmen are closer to CFLers than Kobe Bryant...?

ukcanuck wrote:Only the players income is public knowledge. I've mentioned this before and it seems to be over looked. The owners do not have to show their books to anyone other than the taxman, thats including the players. the numbers they release to the PA and the rest of us academics and laymen alike are the numbers they choose to release and you can bet your ass, seriously, the real numbers are a closely guarded secret.

The PA has audit rights and you can dam sure bet they use them.

No offence uk but it seems pretty clear that you don't have any clue how accounting works and how difficult it is to hide revenue in a business the size of the NHL.

This isn't some corner store where the owner can put 20's in his pocket instead of his till.

ukcanuck wrote:Only the players income is public knowledge. I've mentioned this before and it seems to be over looked. The owners do not have to show their books to anyone other than the taxman, thats including the players. the numbers they release to the PA and the rest of us academics and laymen alike are the numbers they choose to release and you can bet your ass, seriously, the real numbers are a closely guarded secret.

The PA has audit rights and you can dam sure bet they use them.

No offence uk but it seems pretty clear that you don't have any clue how accounting works and how difficult it is to hide revenue in a business the size of the NHL.

This isn't some corner store where the owner can put 20's in his pocket instead of his till.

No it isn't because putting twenties into your pocket would be illegal and I am not talking about any thing against the law and yes the PA has audit rights but not the same rights as the IRS or The CRA and if you don't think a business' relationship with the taxman isnt sacred you just have never been in business. The point remains...If you support the owners based on what they say, your taking on faith exactly what they want you to know. Not necessarily the truth and its pretty evident the players even with their audit rights aren't buying what Bettmans cooking

Last edited by ukcanuck on Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

ukcanuck wrote:No it isn't because putting twenties into your pocket would be illegal and I am not talking about any thing against the law and yes the PA has audit rights but not the same rights as the IRS or The CRA

Ok so explain the diference between the rights of the PA and the rights of the IRS with regard to their ability to audit NHL teams?

While you are at it explain how a company with 100 to 150 mill in revenue is able to hide signifigant pourtions of it and still evade both the tax man and the PA's auditors (who are likely to be top notch BTW)

and if you don't think a business' relationship with the taxman isnt sacred you just have never been in business. The point remains...

I have been a small business owners since I finished my degree (which was in Business BTW).

I am quite familiar with the tax man and I think it's kind of amusing that you charcterise the relationship as "sacred"

I can't explain how anyone can hide 150 mil from the taxman because I never said anyone was hiding money from the government.

The PA has every right to audit any books the NHL keeps regarding the business they say they are doing but they do not have to show anyone the books they show to the taxman. The only books by the way we can be sure are on the up and up. Are the books they show the PA auditors cooked? Of course not. But it's not exactly the same information. And if you can't see that it's easier to hide one truth inside another truth I can't help you understand what I'm talking about.

I can't explain how anyone can hide 150 mil from the taxman because I never said anyone was hiding money from the government.

Ok so explain how the owners can hide revenue from the PA's auditors.

It's clear you dont understand what an "audit" means so I will explain...

The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.

It would be incredibly difficult for the owners to hide revenues of any significance in the current system.

If you think otherwise then explain how they do it?

The PA has every right to audit any books the NHL keeps regarding the business they say they are doing but they do not have to show anyone the books they show to the taxman.

How do you know this? Do you have a link or are you just speculating here?

And if you can't see that it's easier to hide one truth inside another truth I can't help you understand what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure "you" even understand what you are talking about?

You didn't seem to know that the NHLPA had audit rights (until I told you), and you don't seem to know what an "audit" actually means (until I told you). Yet you are incredibly quick you accuse the owners of deceit despite having no idea how they are being deceptive.

It's clear you are way out of your depth on the accounting / business / finance side of this discussion, and I would encourage you to stick to the areas you understand.

You are quick to throw out very heavy allegations (Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans?) despite not having a strong grasp of what it is you are talking about.

I would encourage you to stop doing this as it undermines some of the decent arguments that you make.

Potatoe1 wrote: Ok so explain how the owners can hide revenue from the PA's auditors.

we have already had this argument about just what counts as revenue. The PA can count receipts all day but won't find a penny of revenue that's not HRR revenue...Before you jump on the PA agreed to what's HRR bandwagon, that was a forced agreement and is still contested all over the media.common sense has got to tell you the owners are not going to volunteer any information that hurts their cause.That's one way to "hide" revenue...it's simply not revenue and you have to agree because you've argued exactly that.

It's clear you dont understand what an "audit" means so I will explain...

You can make your argument without lowering to this.

The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.

It would be incredibly difficult for the owners to hide revenues of any significance in the current system.

As I said above and I don't need you to tell me that the PA has audit rights, nearly every time the PA has a press conference they have argued they don't agree with the league's numbers, doesn't take a genius to figure out that they are looking at books given to them by the league and it's also pretty simple to deduce that there is some sort of agreement between them in the interest of getting a deal done. Would the league open themselves up to a lawsuit by intentionally lying to the PA auditors, no one can say that. But the consequences for doing so is not the same as lying to the taxman is it? How many lawsuits are going on at anyone time on wall street, can you tell me?

If you think otherwise then explain how they do it?[/quote]I would counter that the "system" is a lot like the iron clad salary cap system that provided the "cost certainty" they got in the last CBA...not so certain.

pot wrote:

The PA has every right to audit any books the NHL keeps regarding the business they say they are doing but they do not have to show anyone the books they show to the taxman.

How do you know this? Do you have a link or are you just speculating here?

Do I need a link? you are a business man, who else do you show your books too? if your employees asked to see your tax returns would you show them? How about you show me the law that counteracts your right to privacy?

pot wrote:

And if you can't see that it's easier to hide one truth inside another truth I can't help you understand what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure "you" even understand what you are talking about?

You didn't seem to know that the NHLPA had audit rights (until I told you), and you don't seem to know what an "audit" actually means (until I told you). Yet you are incredibly quick you accuse the owners of deceit despite having no idea how they are being deceptive.

It's clear you are way out of your depth on the accounting / business / finance side of this discussion, and I would encourage you to stick to the areas you understand.

This all just rhetoric...it doesn't strengthen your argument...I forget what is your argument? That I am Stupid ? LolI thought that what I had originally said was it's easy to point out the players pay as that is public knowledge, but no one really knows what the owners make.

pot wrote: You are quick to throw out very heavy allegations (Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans?) despite not having a strong grasp of what it is you are talking about.

Heavy allegations? what's the crime I am accusing Wirtz et al? banking off shore? If they don't it must be the local fishermen who've got all those accounts ...

I would encourage you to stop doing this as it undermines some of the decent arguments that you make.

You know what this a goddamn hockey message board, it's all speculation by definition. You don't know what I do for a living and only know what you tell me about yourself and for god's sake we cite Internet links to support out arguments. How about we lighten up a little

Potatoe1 wrote:Ok so explain how the owners can hide revenue from the PA's auditors.

It's clear you dont understand what an "audit" means so I will explain...

The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.

It would be incredibly difficult for the owners to hide revenues of any significance in the current system.

If you think otherwise then explain how they do it?

blah blah blah

It's clear you are way out of your depth on the accounting / business / finance side of this discussion, and I would encourage you to stick to the areas you understand.

Since I am out of my depth and you are the self appointed know it all about NHL finances...

perhaps you can explain how all of this would not help Katz bottom line and how it would appear in a PA audit and more importantly, did you notice that Katz refused a PUBLIC hearing on the matter.

This is what I meant before you

That prompted Mayor Stephen Mandel to ask Katz to appear before council in a public session to explain the new demands, but Oilers owner declined.

The original deal for a new 18,400-seat arena in Edmonton was agreed to last October and was to be funded mostly by taxpayers.

The city would have paid $125-million, although councillors have since been told that land sales and interest will boost that figure to more than $300-million. That number also doesn’t include millions more in transportation development.

The Oilers were to pay operating costs for the facility along with $5.5-million a year for 35 years to help fund construction. In return, the team was to get all profits from Oilers games, trade shows and concerts for 11 months out of the year, along with naming rights worth an estimated $1-million annually.

The team would have also received $20-million over 10 years from the city for advertising.

Councillors were told in a closed door meeting Katz wants $6-million per year from taxpayers to offset the cost of running the building, along with other concessions.

When details of the meeting were leaked to the public, Katz said the $6-million was always part of the deal.

“To suggest I tried to change the deal at the last minute is really unfortunate,” Katz told a sports radio show.

Councillors disagreed, noting the subsidy clause is not part of the original agreement.

Katz is the latest in a long line of pigs looking to stick their nose in the public trough and just like anyone with their hands in the cookie jar they want to do it on the low down.

Your honest Abe business schtick is just that, there aint no such thing as honourable business, there is just business and winners and losers.