Edit : The Basic land for colorless commanders is also really dumb IMO, just have Wastes in the core sets, it is a basic land and probably should be getting reprinted every year anyways to prevent the price from creeping up.

Chekhov's Gun applied to game design: If it's not important, it shouldn't be there. I really don't like the idea of a newbie opening a pack of M19, looking at me and asking me "What's the point in Wastes?" and then I'd have to explain that five years ago they made a very small subset of cards that cared about those and the cards are mostly useless in the current game's context.

The ideal place to reprint Wastes would be a Colorless Commander deck. They would come in bulk so that you have more than enough to do whatever you want with them and those that don't want them could just skip it.

Edit : The Basic land for colorless commanders is also really dumb IMO, just have Wastes in the core sets, it is a basic land and probably should be getting reprinted every year anyways to prevent the price from creeping up.

Chekhov's Gun applied to game design: If it's not important, it shouldn't be there. I really don't like the idea of a newbie opening a pack of M19, looking at me and asking me "What's the point in Wastes?" and then I'd have to explain that five years ago they made a very small subset of cards that cared about those and the cards are mostly useless in the current game's context.

The ideal place to reprint Wastes would be a Colorless Commander deck. They would come in bulk so that you have more than enough to do whatever you want with them and those that don't want them could just skip it.

Or you just say "because it is one of the 6 basic lands and the 6 basic lands are always in core sets"

Or you just say "because it is one of the 6 basic lands and the 6 basic lands are always in core sets"

Every game is a puzzle. Giving your player more pieces than they need only makes the game more difficult. And Magic is already a pretty complex game by itself.

Let's say a new player looks at the basic lands, see five colored cards and a gray card and read a mana cost like, say, 1R. Well, simple logic dictates that this means 1 Gray and 1 Red, therefore 1 Mountain and 1 Waste. Even if the rules state otherwise, that's the logical conclusion anyone with no prior game knowledge would come up with, and our brain is always hard-wired to go through the most logical solution given the circumstances. Even if you try to teach them otherwise, you'd have to first "un-teach" something that sounds logical for them.

And what's the benefit of it all in the end? To have a 1/6th chance in every pack to get a card that might be slightly expensive someday? Bulk printing is far better.

Even if Wizards wanted to put wastes in M19, which they don't because it would be confusing to new players and pointless except to please a minuscule niche of EDH players, it's wayyyyy too late for that by now.

EDH rules committee should just adopt the rule letting you use any one basic in your colorless commander deck. It would make those decks easier to build with absolutely no downside.

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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.

Even if Wizards wanted to put wastes in M19, which they don't because it would be confusing to new players and pointless except to please a minuscule niche of EDH players, it's wayyyyy too late for that by now.

EDH rules committee should just adopt the rule letting you use any one basic in your colorless commander deck. It would make those decks easier to build with absolutely no downside.

This, but really, who's stopping you? Do you really have friends or people in your group that go "nu-uh, you can't use Forest for colorless, you need to dish out for thirty-something Wastes if you want to play with us"? Cause that's the type of person I'm looking to eliminate from my reality.

haven't really played much of the format but I heard Baral was busted. Can't comment on the unbans

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standard
temur energy but I don't really like the format too much right now
modern
Grixis Deaths Shadow, Jeskai Geist, might build dredge since I have most of it
Legacy
mono black pox
Edh
Sharuum, Yidris

Interestingly, their arguments for banning Baral in the deck (as opposed to just as the commander) and Smuggler's Copter echo the complaints that a lot of players have about Sol Ring in EDH, in that it unfairly advantages the players who happen to draw it early.

This is why I want WotC to take over the Commander banlist. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault make games terrible when they show up on one side.

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Best description of the new EDH Tuck rule: "I view this most recent change as a step toward a padded playpen environment rather than the multiverse-trekking battlecruiser Magic I fell in love with." -Epochalyptik

Interestingly, their arguments for banning Baral in the deck (as opposed to just as the commander) and Smuggler's Copter echo the complaints that a lot of players have about Sol Ring in EDH, in that it unfairly advantages the players who happen to draw it early.

This is why I want WotC to take over the Commander banlist. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault make games terrible when they show up on one side.

The ideal place to reprint Wastes would be a Colorless Commander deck. They would come in bulk so that you have more than enough to do whatever you want with them and those that don't want them could just skip it.

Commander decks are still limited supply product and buying them for a few basics doesn't seem like the best value for players. They could give out "land packs" similar to those found previously in fatpacks at FNMs for attendance or something. It will cost them virtually nothing and might even motivate newer players to play at FNM to expand their collection.

Interestingly, their arguments for banning Baral in the deck (as opposed to just as the commander) and Smuggler's Copter echo the complaints that a lot of players have about Sol Ring in EDH, in that it unfairly advantages the players who happen to draw it early.

This is why I want WotC to take over the Commander banlist. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault make games terrible when they show up on one side.

The thing is. Fast mana is fundemental to EDH. Everybody has acces to these cards. Sure, sometimes you get lucky with your fast mana. Sometimes your opponent gets lucky. Sometimes that elves player swarms you t3. Sometimes you get stormed t2. If your playgroup is not that competitive, houseban the fastmana and problem cards. Do not drag the people that like these vintage style cards and playstyles to your more casual view of what the format should be.

Also. If you like playing new cards and don't want fastmana in your group. Then brawl is the format for you.

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Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner

“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”—Volrath

Interestingly, their arguments for banning Baral in the deck (as opposed to just as the commander) and Smuggler's Copter echo the complaints that a lot of players have about Sol Ring in EDH, in that it unfairly advantages the players who happen to draw it early.

This is why I want WotC to take over the Commander banlist. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault make games terrible when they show up on one side.

The thing is. Fast mana is fundemental to EDH. Everybody has acces to these cards. Sure, sometimes you get lucky with your fast mana. Sometimes your opponent gets lucky. Sometimes that elves player swarms you t3. Sometimes you get stormed t2. If your playgroup is not that competitive, houseban the fastmana and problem cards. Do not drag the people that like these vintage style cards and playstyles to your more casual view of what the format should be.

Also. If you like playing new cards and don't want fastmana in your group. Then brawl is the format for you.

I think it's more a problem in large LGS communities where you have casual/competitive players mixed and the only normalizing factor is the official banned list. Like, it's no fun for anyone when one person shows up with a deck trying to combo out on turn 3 and everyone else is playing more casual decks. That said, I don't know if banning the super efficient mana rocks, effectively killing competitive multiplayer, is a good idea. Also, not everyone practically has access to mana vault and mana crypt. Vault can be rare and is still medium expensive, and crypt is still prohibitively expensive for many players.

Interestingly, their arguments for banning Baral in the deck (as opposed to just as the commander) and Smuggler's Copter echo the complaints that a lot of players have about Sol Ring in EDH, in that it unfairly advantages the players who happen to draw it early.

This is why I want WotC to take over the Commander banlist. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault make games terrible when they show up on one side.

The thing is. Fast mana is fundemental to EDH. Everybody has acces to these cards. Sure, sometimes you get lucky with your fast mana. Sometimes your opponent gets lucky. Sometimes that elves player swarms you t3. Sometimes you get stormed t2. If your playgroup is not that competitive, houseban the fastmana and problem cards. Do not drag the people that like these vintage style cards and playstyles to your more casual view of what the format should be.

Also. If you like playing new cards and don't want fastmana in your group. Then brawl is the format for you.

I think it's more a problem in large LGS communities where you have casual/competitive players mixed and the only normalizing factor is the official banned list. Like, it's no fun for anyone when one person shows up with a deck trying to combo out on turn 3 and everyone else is playing more casual decks. That said, I don't know if banning the super efficient mana rocks, effectively killing competitive multiplayer, is a good idea. Also, not everyone practically has access to mana vault and mana crypt. Vault can be rare and is still medium expensive, and crypt is still prohibitively expensive for many players.

Just do what people in ye'old vintage did. Play Null Rod and it's ilk. Learn to play answers.

Most people don't play enough answers in EDH. They just want to durdle and do their thing and get mad when their 10000/10000 Omnath gets pathed or their Gideon.deck gets Pithing Needled into a halt. They could have remedied this by playing more protection cards to protect their omnath or disenchants to get rid of needle effects on Gideons. But they won't. Disenchant isn't cool. They want to play more Gideons..

Even if you'r more casual inclined, you should learn the value of playing your own mana accel etc and answers to the things your opponent is trying to do.

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Thanks to SpiderBoy4 @ High-Light Studio's for the awesome banner

“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”—Volrath

Interestingly, their arguments for banning Baral in the deck (as opposed to just as the commander) and Smuggler's Copter echo the complaints that a lot of players have about Sol Ring in EDH, in that it unfairly advantages the players who happen to draw it early.

This is why I want WotC to take over the Commander banlist. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault make games terrible when they show up on one side.

The thing is. Fast mana is fundemental to EDH. Everybody has acces to these cards. Sure, sometimes you get lucky with your fast mana. Sometimes your opponent gets lucky. Sometimes that elves player swarms you t3. Sometimes you get stormed t2. If your playgroup is not that competitive, houseban the fastmana and problem cards. Do not drag the people that like these vintage style cards and playstyles to your more casual view of what the format should be.

Also. If you like playing new cards and don't want fastmana in your group. Then brawl is the format for you.

I think it's more a problem in large LGS communities where you have casual/competitive players mixed and the only normalizing factor is the official banned list. Like, it's no fun for anyone when one person shows up with a deck trying to combo out on turn 3 and everyone else is playing more casual decks. That said, I don't know if banning the super efficient mana rocks, effectively killing competitive multiplayer, is a good idea. Also, not everyone practically has access to mana vault and mana crypt. Vault can be rare and is still medium expensive, and crypt is still prohibitively expensive for many players.

Just do what people in ye'old vintage did. Play Null Rod and it's ilk. Learn to play answers.

Most people don't play enough answers in EDH. They just want to durdle and do their thing and get mad when their 10000/10000 Omnath gets pathed or their Gideon.deck gets Pithing Needled into a halt. They could have remedied this by playing more protection cards to protect their omnath or disenchants to get rid of needle effects on Gideons. But they won't. Disenchant isn't cool. They want to play more Gideons..

Even if you'r more casual inclined, you should learn the value of playing your own mana accel etc and answers to the things your opponent is trying to do.

The fact that they kept Copter banned in brawl because it defines who's gonna win leads me to believe wotc would ban the fast mana if they took over. Too many games are decided by who goes "land, sol ring, mana crypt, (whatever)". Stuff like Thran Dynamo, and Worn Powerstone are fine. But no rock should make more than it's own cost right off the bat. Especially on turn 1.

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Best description of the new EDH Tuck rule: "I view this most recent change as a step toward a padded playpen environment rather than the multiverse-trekking battlecruiser Magic I fell in love with." -Epochalyptik

The fact that they kept Copter banned in brawl because it defines who's gonna win leads me to believe wotc would ban the fast mana if they took over. Too many games are decided by who goes "land, sol ring, mana crypt, (whatever)". Stuff like Thran Dynamo, and Worn Powerstone are fine. But no rock should make more than it's own cost right off the bat. Especially on turn 1.

I don't know, we are talking about the guys who created Prossh, Derevi and Inalla. And also put Sol ring into every deck since the first commander. And used Mana Crypt as a selling point for eternal master. Sooooo....

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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.

Or you just say "because it is one of the 6 basic lands and the 6 basic lands are always in core sets"

You mean "one of the 11 basic lands and 6 of them are always in core sets and the other 5 are not"?

Snow is a sub type of all permanents.

Every game is a puzzle. Giving your player more pieces than they need only makes the game more difficult. And Magic is already a pretty complex game by itself.

Let's say a new player looks at the basic lands, see five colored cards and a gray card and read a mana cost like, say, 1R. Well, simple logic dictates that this means 1 Gray and 1 Red, therefore 1 Mountain and 1 Waste. Even if the rules state otherwise, that's the logical conclusion anyone with no prior game knowledge would come up with, and our brain is always hard-wired to go through the most logical solution given the circumstances. Even if you try to teach them otherwise, you'd have to first "un-teach" something that sounds logical for them.

And what's the benefit of it all in the end? To have a 1/6th chance in every pack to get a card that might be slightly expensive someday? Bulk printing is far better.

And that argument gets negated by the existence of any Colorless Mana rock or non basic land that shows up in a Core Set, such as the Painlands, the <> colorless mana symbol is going to show up in Core sets regardless of Wastelands or not.

And that argument gets negated by the existence of any Colorless Mana rock or non basic land that shows up in a Core Set, such as the Painlands, the <> colorless mana symbol is going to show up in Core sets regardless of Wastelands or not.

The real problem is another one. A mana rock or a painland always do something else, instead of just giving colorless (and even if a mana rock only gives colorless, it still ramp you ahead with mana). It make a sense in any set even without a "colorless matter" theme. But that's not the case of the Waste. There's no reason in this world a player should play a waste over a basic land inside a set where the difference not only is not relevant, but is basically strictly worse than a basic land (colored basics can pay for generic mana and their color, wastes only for generic). That's why making wastes legal in Standard outside of a "colorless matter" enviroment would just confuse players (especially new ones), because they wouldn't understand the reason to ever play them in the first place in substitution of a basic land.

Wastes are a land that really should not be printed "just because". This solution was far better than leaving people to fend for themselves on them or trying to reprint them for no real reason. You can be sure we'll see them in a return to Zendikar (which we know will happen at some point because of the storyline putting Nissa back there). You wouldn't really be that excited to be pulling non full-art wastes anyways.

And that argument gets negated by the existence of any Colorless Mana rock or non basic land that shows up in a Core Set, such as the Painlands, the <> colorless mana symbol is going to show up in Core sets regardless of Wastelands or not.

The real problem is another one. A mana rock or a painland always do something else, instead of just giving colorless (and even if a mana rock only gives colorless, it still ramp you ahead with mana). It make a sense in any set even without a "colorless matter" theme. But that's not the case of the Waste. There's no reason in this world a player should play a waste over a basic land inside a set where the difference not only is not relevant, but is basically strictly worse than a basic land (colored basics can pay for generic mana and their color, wastes only for generic). That's why making wastes legal in Standard outside of a "colorless matter" enviroment would just confuse players (especially new ones), because they wouldn't understand the reason to ever play them in the first place in substitution of a basic land.

^ This. It's not that the C symbol has some inherent mystery that newbies can't grasp - it's just that when learning something new, especially a game that requires critical thinking and strategy, we want to look at everything available for us and understand its purpose.

We, enfranchised players, understand that outside of BfZ the C symbol serves no purpose, but a newbie looking at it will just realize that there's something in the game rules he still doesn't understand and will either have to search it up (unlikely) or go with what he finds the most logical... even if he has to make it up.

As Uriel said, mana rocks have their purpose. They are made to circumvent the "one land per turn" rule. Wastes serve no purpose, and thus will just make new players go "No, I must be missing something here...".

I'm really enjoying this thread and all of it's debate on the availability of Wastes to use in their colorless decks.

Am I the only one who played a colorless commander BEFORE wastes was a thing? 35-38 Nonbasic, colorless only, Singleton lands was the Mana base. I even run a colorless deck now and only a handful of wastes just so I'm not left out of the Path to Exile or Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin symmetry. But by no means is my colorless deck primarily running Wastes. I'm too hooked on the concept of "every land does something."

Also, last I checked OGW fat packs were still ~$30 and contained 20 Wastes. At least at my LGS.