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...Morgoth took a wolf-pup, fed it 'living flesh' with his own hand, and worked his will on it until there was this evil beast that sprawled 'huge and hungry' before his throne... and then to top it all, it became filled with a hellish 'devouring spirit'. The process of Glaurung's creation could, by extension, be imagined to be similar - just with a rather different starting point. Dragons are also implied to have been based on some living creature by how they could have offspring...

Very truth & may also be applied to all evil creatures that serve Morgoth & much later Sauron, just living creatures that went wrong not machines. That Tolkiens used the word device don't mean they are robots. Just that Morgoth used them for his own will, by corrupting their mind & heart inspiring them distrust & hate through lies.

Very truth & may also be applied to all evil creatures that serve Morgoth & much later Sauron, just living creatures that went wrong not machines. That Tolkiens used the word device don't mean they are robots. Just that Morgoth used them for his own will, by corrupting their mind & heart inspiring them distrust & hate through lies.

Forget that 'device' business - that was in a specific context, the original version of The Fall of Gondolin, where there are indeed monsters which have apparently been 'devised' (brazen and iron serpents) but those don't appear in later material. The oldest tales are odd like that, as Tolkien's ideas were at a formative stage - another example is that the character we know as Sauron started off as a monstrous cat called Tevildo. (That does seem to partly survived as the Eye being like that of a cat, but fortunately the rest of this malign magic moggie was written out).

Forget that 'device' business - that was in a specific context, the original version of The Fall of Gondolin, where there are indeed monsters which have apparently been 'devised' (brazen and iron serpents) but those don't appear in later material...

Understood, that was a essay not what he stick too, when he made his mind.

You are all being too literal.
In a nutshell, the idea has always been that Melkor, Sauron and the rest represented the perversion of natural creation - the Machine (or Magic). The rest is just the evolution of that idea throughout the years for Tolkien.

You are all being too literal.
In a nutshell, the idea has always been that Melkor, Sauron and the rest represented the perversion of natural creation - the Machine (or Magic). The rest is just the evolution of that idea throughout the years for Tolkien.

You're generalizing like crazy there. Sauron went in for actual devices because of who and what he'd started out as (a Maia of Aulë), and Saruman shows the same inclination because he shared that same background. Melkor/Morgoth doesn't consistently show the same traits - the initial appearance of 'mechanical' monsters is a red herring, it doesn't appear in any of the later tales. There's no straightforward evolution, some early ideas were simply dropped, others radically changed.

You're generalizing like crazy there. Sauron went in for actual devices because of who and what he'd started out as (a Maia of Aulë), and Saruman shows the same inclination because he shared that same background. Melkor/Morgoth doesn't consistently show the same traits - the initial appearance of 'mechanical' monsters is a red herring, it doesn't appear in any of the later tales. There's no straightforward evolution, some early ideas were simply dropped, others radically changed.

And magic? Both sides use it, it's the intent that matters.

Still too literal.
Rad, no need to argue. No one is saying Morgoth bred monster Cylons in petri dishes. My only point was that evil entities in Tolkien's verse represent the perversion of natural order of things. Tolkien purposefully compares natural sub-creation (like the Art the Elves create) to the "quick and easy" sub-creation attempt of Melkor and his followers (the Machine or Magic). "Machine" and "Magic" used not in the literal sense but as examples of something unnatural. Recall the words of Galadriel to Sam concerning his wish to see elven "magic".
So the idea of perversion of nature holds true for both the early concept of animated automtons and for the later choice monsters imbued with the will of Morgoth.
I'm pretty much using Tolkien's own words in this. Note his letter to Milton Waldman used as a preface to Silmarillion providing an overview of his ideas.

Still too literal.
Rad, no need to argue. No one is saying Morgoth bred monster Cylons in petri dishes. My only point was that evil entities in Tolkien's verse represent the perversion of natural order of things. Tolkien purposefully compares natural sub-creation (like the Art the Elves create) to the "quick and easy" sub-creation attempt of Melkor and his followers (the Machine or Magic). "Machine" and "Magic" used not in the literal sense but as examples of something unnatural. Recall the words of Galadriel to Sam concerning his wish to see elven "magic".
So the idea of perversion of nature holds true for both the early concept of animated automtons and for the later choice monsters imbued with the will of Morgoth.
I'm pretty much using Tolkien's own words in this. Note his letter to Milton Waldman used as a preface to Silmarillion providing an overview of his ideas.

Well of course im beeing literal, im looking for the facts of the story that Tolkien wrote. Not a message withing that people interpretate.

Well of course im beeing literal, im looking for the facts of the story that Tolkien wrote. Not a message withing that people interpretate.

Good because nobody's saying Melkor's monsters are remote-controlled synthetics (I hope not at least).

Back to the topic, I'd say there have always been some trees (and treeish ents) who turned dark and violent for any number of reasons. After all, most other species are not very sensitive about chopping down forests. Half of the great forests of Eriador were methodically destroyed by Numenoreans back in the Second Age for example. You can see how some Huorns and Ents might take these things personal. And with their lifespans they can hold grudges for quite some time.

No one is saying Morgoth bred monster Cylons in petri dishes. My only point was that evil entities in Tolkien's verse represent the perversion of natural order of things.

That's only stating the obvious...

Tolkien purposefully compares natural sub-creation (like the Art the Elves create) to the "quick and easy" sub-creation attempt of Melkor and his followers (the Machine or Magic). "Machine" and "Magic" used not in the literal sense but as examples of something unnatural. Recall the words of Galadriel to Sam concerning his wish to see elven "magic".
So the idea of perversion of nature holds true for both the early concept of animated automtons and for the later choice monsters imbued with the will of Morgoth.
I'm pretty much using Tolkien's own words in this. Note his letter to Milton Waldman used as a preface to Silmarillion providing an overview of his ideas.

That's what I picked you up on - there's a difference in kind between 'mechanical' monsters and the more traditional sort like dragons; people perceive them differently. And to start with, 'machine' was meant pretty much literally - iron serpents with hearts of fire, that carried Orcs within them. Not the sort of thing that he retains; that doesn't evolve, it just gets cut.

Rad you simply don't get it. Dragons are pervertions twisted and evil, but still they are what they are because A LONG-WORM would never become a Dragon by natural means, Melkor's smith craft knowledge of the natural world allowed him to deform a long-worm and with magic put an evil spirit in it and finally transform it to a dragon. The dragon still has offspring like a beast, but thats as similiarities get, its a Dragon now probably can even be hemafrodyte o his eggs are less than a long-worm and so on, a Dragon is a Machination of Melkor definetly an invention.

Rad you simply don't get it. Dragons are pervertions twisted and evil, but still they are what they are because A LONG-WORM would never become a Dragon by natural means, Melkor's smith craft knowledge of the natural world allowed him to deform a long-worm and with magic put an evil spirit in it and finally transform it to a dragon. The dragon still has offspring like a beast, but thats as similiarities get, its a Dragon now probably can even be hemafrodyte o his eggs are less than a long-worm and so on, a Dragon is a Machination of Melkor definetly an invention.

No, mate, I understand that just fine - it was you who brought up that stuff about actual 'devices' into it by that mention of things from The Fall of Gondolin, which you made without understanding the context.. Of course Morgoth used his power to create the dragons from something else, since that was all he could do given that he couldn't create truly living things from scratch (and since the dragons could bear offspring they had to have been truly alive, not just constructs). Where you now seem to be getting confused is between 'machines' and machinations, when the latter simply means craftily scheming or plotting. It's no good trying to insist the use of 'magic' would make it a mechanistic process when Tolkien consistently presents sub-creation as an art.

That's what I picked you up on - there's a difference in kind between 'mechanical' monsters and the more traditional sort like dragons; people perceive them differently. And to start with, 'machine' was meant pretty much literally - iron serpents with hearts of fire, that carried Orcs within them. Not the sort of thing that he retains; that doesn't evolve, it just gets cut.

Apparently the author thought differently according, for one, to the same letter as of 1951. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Apparently the author thought differently according, for one, to the same letter as of 1951. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

No, I'm only arguing with your reading of it. The letter says that the desire for power leads either to the use of machines or magic as a means of dominating nature but that wasn't limited to just the bad guys (Tolkien admits this inconsistency) - for example, the Three Rings of the Elves did something profoundly unnatural by preserving things from the passage of time, keeping them from fading away as they would otherwise have done. That was of course because the Rings were a 'machine' ultimately of Sauron's devising (since they were based on the lore he'd provided), and were intended as a tempting trap, but it shows that the Elves were fully capable of seeking to dominate nature by power when it suited them. That fits with what Tolkien says elsewhere about magia and goetia and how each side made use of both.

Im with ergovald, yes I brought it up because its obvious for me that dragons are a contruct because they can fly, breath fire and grow larger, they blood is toxic and so on a long-worm or cold drake doesn't have this things obviously Melkor knew smith craft akin to feanors skill to capture light for example but inverse. Dragons are devices, yes organic but not living things.

Also Christopher Tolkien called "devices" and "monsters" because they are a pervertion of the natural world, not just mockeries.

Im with ergovald, yes I brought it up because its obvious for me that dragons are a contruct because they can fly, breath fire and grow larger, they blood is toxic and so on a long-worm or cold drake doesn't have this things obviously Melkor knew smith craft akin to feanors skill to capture light for example but inverse. Dragons are devices, yes organic but not living things.
Also Christopher Tolkien called "devices" and "monsters" because they are a pervertion of the natural world, not just mockeries.

The birds, bats, some insects, some dinosaurs, some lemurs, some snakes, some squirels, some frogs (please stop me or i will keep mentioning living creatures that can fly) can fly. Are they made of metal & have bolts & turning wheels? There are some creatures that can spit burning sustances. Everybodies blood is toxic (specially after eating so much preservatives). It is obvious that Tolkien used the old word to classify reptiles kind: worm & we all know that most dinosaurs were prety big worms.

All organic creatures are living beeings. Are they machines? Well even myself, im a machine & no less a living beeing. Machine = something that can do work.

Also im a device of my boss at my job. That doesn't means im not alive.

Im with ergovald, yes I brought it up because its obvious for me that dragons are a contruct because they can fly, breath fire and grow larger, they blood is toxic and so on a long-worm or cold drake doesn't have this things obviously Melkor knew smith craft akin to feanors skill to capture light for example but inverse. Dragons are devices, yes organic but not living things.

Also Christopher Tolkien called "devices" and "monsters" because they are a pervertion of the natural world, not just mockeries.

Again confusing the brazen and iron serpents in TFoG with dragons. No, that is not what Christopher Tolkien said, you're using that out of context. And no, dragons couldn't be just constructs because they could have offspring of their own - they therefore had to be truly alive, based upon some living thing that Morgoth had shaped to his own ends, just as the Orcs were, or the werewolves.

Again confusing the brazen and iron serpents in TFoG with dragons. No, that is not what Christopher Tolkien said, you're using that out of context. And no, dragons couldn't be just constructs because they could have offspring of their own - they therefore had to be truly alive, based upon some living thing that Morgoth had shaped to his own ends, just as the Orcs were, or the werewolves.

here is proof:

In a letter dated 1954, Tolkien noted:
'Of course (...) when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. [letter 153, or Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed Text VIII, note 3]

And from the Children of Hurin...

'And there right before her was the great head of Glaurung, who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes had looked into the fell spirit of his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.'

I found in Silmarillion a quote for it.

To corrupt or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth; (Silmarillion, Chapter 17, "Of the Coming of Men into the West")

Life wasn't in dragons it was evil spirits to animate them, biological contructs of Morgoth.

...Life wasn't in dragons it was evil spirits to animate them, biological contructs of Morgoth.

You can "construct" a cow as you wish it to be, by carefully chossing its parents. It is called artificial selection & don't requires magic. It may takes a few generations but you can get exactly wht you wish for. The constructed product is a life beeing able to carry offspring as well to multiply the desired phenotype. But time was not a issue for the long life of a corrupted maiar like Melkor, so he can patiently cross breed his subjects, all he wish till he get what he expected.

Also, all life forms have a spirit, that writting maybe talking about the dragon inborn spirit & not a posesion as fr we know beacause nowhere say its a posesion. That Morgoth gave the dragon a spirit can be reduced to the fact that he breed the dragon, he give it life (directly or indirectly) the same a plant seed is not alive until you plant it, you give live to the seed.

By the way, wood can turn into stone, is a natural process called petrification.

You can "construct" a cow as you wish it to be, by carefully chossing its parents. It is called artificial selection & don't requires magic. It may takes a few generations but you can get exactly wht you wish for. The constructed product is a life beeing able to carry offspring as well to multiply the desired phenotype. But time was not a issue for the long life of a corrupted maiar like Melkor, so he can patiently cross breed his subjects, all he wish till he get what he expected.

Also, all life forms have a spirit, that writting maybe talking about the dragon inborn spirit & not a posesion as fr we know beacause nowhere say its a posesion. That Morgoth gave the dragon a spirit can be reduced to the fact that he breed the dragon, he give it life (directly or indirectly) the same a plant seed is not alive until you plant it, you give live to the seed.

By the way, wood can turn into stone, is a natural process called petrification.

Look you just said why is not correct,

Selective breeding will redender sub-species but never a flying cow, Dragons aren't just twsited drakes, some magic was implied in their making. Dragonns are only alive thanks to Melkor, its their sustaining force, they have no soul.

Proof of what? What he's saying is that if you have something that talks, then it must have a soul... but he purposely doesn't go into the origin of Trolls (beyond the musings about them having goblin spirits inside them, which seems to have been just a passing thought). And dragons talk, which would be proof they were truly living things even if he hadn't otherwise told us they were by telling us that an evil spirit lived within them. But again, he glosses over where the dragons came from - with the implied explanation being that the Elves simply didn't know.

And from the Children of Hurin...I found in Silmarillion a quote for it.

Utterly inconclusive - Carcharoth had a fell spirit within him but was nonetheless a corrupted beast, not anything Morgoth had made from scratch.

Life wasn't in dragons it was evil spirits to animate them, biological contructs of Morgoth.

One more time, they had to be truly alive because they could have offspring. Dragons were born, not made - as evidenced by how Smaug was said to have been a young dragon when he attacked Erebor, meaning that he couldn't have been around since the First Age. They simply can't have been constructs.

I read the title of this thread "Evil Ents" I see the discussion has evolved into another subject. Interesting though.

My thougt:

I find that it is most probability in this theory: What if dragons were much "bred" from ex. cold-drakes and so on with with careful "selection". The process was probably very much meddled in by Melkor, speeding it up and pulling it towards a certain direction. Then Melkor put down some time and effort in polishing the results, twisting the minds and maybe "pouring" more evil, mind and soul into the creature. Thus "creating", or more like developing something. And I think that dragons couldn't have emerged whitout Melkors meddling by natural causes or "evolution"

In modern days he could have used like: selectional breeding, engrafting, mixture with genes and DNA, cross-breeding and so on, but I don´t think he had much knowledge of ex. genoms and DNA. But he had something like "magic"
So in a way I think all of you have already concluded similar things, just expressed your thoughts in different ways

Look you just said why is not correct, Selective breeding will redender sub-species but never a flying cow, Dragons aren't just twsited drakes, some magic was implied in their making. Dragonns are only alive thanks to Melkor, its their sustaining force, they have no soul.

This is so funny! I never said that Melkor did flying cows. There was a cow that jumped over the moon on Tolkiens literature but thats a different matter.

I never said that Melkor used or not magic to make dragons. & Melkor didn't have to mutate the worms to grow wings. Species of flying dinosaurs may have beeing already part of the natural fauna. I simply stated that the same way a farmer can selectively breed his livestock to produce a desired phenotype. Melkor could have done with all creatures he made. This don't require neither magic nor extensive knowledge of science & is a prety effective method.

Curiously Tolkiens used to live in a farm & was a educated person. He must have been prety familiar with the concept of selective breeding.

Originally Posted by EddieMuerto

I read the title of this thread "Evil Ents" I see the discussion has evolved into another subject. Interesting though... What if dragons were much "bred" from ex. cold-drakes and so on with with careful "selection". The process was probably very much meddled in by Melkor, speeding it up and pulling it towards a certain direction. Then Melkor put down some time and effort in polishing the results, twisting the minds and maybe "pouring" more evil, mind and soul into the creature. Thus "creating", or more like developing something. And I think that dragons couldn't have emerged whitout Melkors meddling by natural causes or "evolution"

In modern days he could have used like: selectional breeding, engrafting, mixture with genes and DNA, cross-breeding and so on, but I don´t think he had much knowledge of ex. genoms and DNA. But he had something like "magic"
So in a way I think all of you have already concluded similar things, just expressed your thoughts in different ways

I agree with this, im not saying that he was a genetist. But knowing that he was a maiar, it would make sence that his level of knowledge was way above any human beeing. & the way that dragons creation is related to the corruption of ents (aka trolls) is that both shared of good will ancestor that Melkor twisted into a evil form.