We are talking about a plane, which despite being good is also as good as obsolete. No amount of upgrades can make these relics competitive. I know that having planes is better than not having any: if nothing else, a plane allows you to train pilots. However, if we think we have competitive planes that can engage and win in today’s threat environment, we are simply deluding ourselves.

Unlike the C-130s, the fighter planes have to do more than just be able to fly, and in a real shooting war, where you are not bombing your own people, you have to have competitive planes. Right now, we have none.

JF-17 seems like a good plane light plane, perhaps it can work as a standoff interceptor; but if it was such a good deal, people will be falling over each other to buy these things. I hope that PAF is not going with them out of pride just to own up to a mistake. I think PAF has enough to train and evaluate its real unbiased performance.

One does not bring a knife to a gunfight.

Thank you for your attention.

Nasir

P.S. perhaps someone who has actually flown one can elighten us about their objective performance.

Man you are smoking some good sh1t. If f16 aircraft is obsolete then why almost every NATO country has it in its inventory? It's here to stay.
Regarding jf17, trust me it's a very capable aircraft and if it wasn't then America wouldn't have bothered to put so many hurdles in pakistans way during the development phase.

Lot of what you write is personal beliefs. Example. F104 was a capable interceptor. It served in many front line nato countries including Germany. Yes like the Mig 21 it was a flying coffin but it served its purpose.
Today aircraft are designed so that combat is generally BVR. For this reason electronics avionics etc comprise 70% of the aircraft costs. Pakistani pilots train heavily in close combat drawing enemy close and mixing it up. Thats when pilot skills come into play. JF17 is s very capable aircraft and continually evolving.
Your statement as to why we are not acquiring more...well we just got some from Jordan. If the price is right we nay acquire additional. But remember its Pakistan and we are not the flavour of the west. So any acquisition is is full of hurdles.

Before just dismissing the Vipers and their TAPE-5 MLU + Falcon Star Structural Enhancement upgrades as obsolete and relics, it should be first established what operational capabilities they lack that an upto date fighter of today needs to have in our region.

So it would be appreciated if you could elaborate on these lackings by stating specifics and avoid sweeping generalizations.

Thank you for your nice post.
Now I can understand your point of view better.
True that these upgrades don't improve the aerodynamic performance of the Viper.
But are they so bad that they be termed as obsolete and relics?

They don't have to be better or even equal but just comparable.

The rest is the mastery of the pilot and the overall C4I net-centric warfare strategy and tactics.

WVR AA-Combat:
Under 10,000 ft between 325kts to 550kts, the Viper is quite effective still.
This is the subset of the envelope at which dogfights take place but the envelope at which the Viper is at its most lethal.

On paper the MiG-29 has outright superior maneuverability over the Viper, but it's best stats don't fall in the above envelope in which the Viper is at its most lethal. After German unfication, exercises between ex-East German MiG-29s and NATO Vipers have revealed this and when pilot employs the correct tactics ... the MiG-29 usually came out 2nd best inspite of the R-73 (Schlem HOBS) combo.

The Eurofighter Typhoon too suffers the same fate against a Viper in capable hands.

Outside of this envelope the Eurofighter Typhoon reigns supreme.
It has been twittered by Alan Warnes that in exercises recently, the MLU-ed Viper's of the PAF have consistently gotten the better of Saudi Typhoons.
There has also been a less substantiated rumour that a few years ago during an exercise in Turkey an Un-MLU-ed PAF Block-15 Viper got kills on a Typhoon from the Italian Air Force or RAF.
You can google all this.
The Viper pretty much has more or less the same aerodynamic performance as the Gripen, even a slightly better.
There hasn't been any easily reference-able material on the net about any exercise b/w the Viper and the Rafale.
But the Rafale is not better than the Eurofighter Typhoon in AA-mode.
Also with JHMCS and AIM-9M-8/9s (90 degree cone) limited off-bore sight provides the PAF some capability in this area till we can get a true HOBS missile like AIM-9X or IRIS-T.
But I think a point can be made that the Viper is still a viable platform in the WVR regime.

BVR AA-Combat:
If the encounter is an isolated one-on-one type then the Viper will be at a clear disadvantage due to it's higher RCS of 1.2m^2 while the other three fighters mentioned by you have RCS of less than one.
As a result the Viper will be seen way before it can see the others and thus get fired upon first.
However if the encounter is a modern full blown combat scenario, then wholesale net-centric warfare including AWACS/AEW platforms and C4I etc. will be in place.
The issue of being seen first will become moot because of the presence of AWACS over Pakistan's own Air-Space (i.e. Air Defence).
However disadvantages can creep in because of AAM's like the Meteor, MICA and IRIS-T.
But other than that AIM-120C-5 is a good weapon and can match the adversary.
I am not saying there are no issues but the F-16 AM/BMs (TAPE-5 MLU) will still remain viable.
Far from being relics and obsolete.

Air To Ground Role:
Nobody can challenge that the Viper is a supreme strike plane.
It is not for nothing that is still NATO's premier Multi-Role Strike platform.

But tell me how many Eurofighters, Gripens or Rafales are in service in our region?
India has yet to sign the deal with the French on the 126 Rafales and it is already last quarter of 2014.
It will at least take 2.5 years from the date of signing for the first Rafales to arrive.
By then, who knows ... the later blocks of the JF-17 Thunder maybe sporting a powerful AESA radar (quite on the cards).
BTW the thunder's RD-93 engine has already been tweaked to produce 98KN / 22,000 lbf max thrust giving it TWR of greater than 1.
We are bogged by lack of funds due to our economy and rampant corruption.
Otherwise we would have had FC-20 with AESA Radar already flying in PAF colors.

It is wishful to believe that in a full-scale war, Pakistani AWACS (or tankers) will stay airborne. It is a good idea, but our geography does not permit it. We cannot honestly believe that! In a full out three front war, we can forget about AWACS. I know this is snarky, but we cannot seem to protect the damned things on ground in peacetime. I am sorry for this comment, but I just could not resist it.

What makes you thinks the AWACS would be taken out? They won't be deep in enemy territory anyway, they'll be used within our own airspace to provide cover within our own airspace. Only after IAF FOB's were taken out of action would PAF think of taking the AWACS onto the front foot. We have plenty of missiles and cruise missiles especially which can be used to target FOB's.

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These eye's do not wander in lust, for myqueen of hearts has graced them with love.

When I share my opinion, the only purpose is to learn if I have made any mistake, did I overlook something, or one or more of my premises are wrong. Otherwise, I can just think it and not write anything. The second purpose is to educate the public, and put pressure of the military leadership not take our support for granted. They have to have a convincing reason for literally stealing food from the mouth of the babies. I want to know why and how my assertions are wrong and why?

Can you sketch us a scenario where Pakistani AWACS can actually keep flying during a war? I will honestly like to know, what the thinking in Pakistan is. Remember we do not have an adequate or an effective air defense system: it is because it is not glamorous; you cannot swagger around with your radars and ground to air missile defenses.

We have nothing like the Russian S-300. In order to keep AWACS flying we must wither have a huge territory which is punishingly inaccessible for enemy fighter planes themselves armed with BVRs, or we should have every inch of Pakistan covered with an S-300/Patriot (newer versions). Such coverage can be only be afforded with a highly developed and very rich country: because it takes only less than a year to develop countermeasures against such things.

I believe that everyone on this FORUM should support a strong yet well thought out defense of Pakistan.

This is one of the more unsatisfying reply I have seen on a Defense FORUM. I am sorry, but I cannot feign insincere admiration: when I know that something is just not my opinion but rather a fact that reasonable people even tangentially familiar with the subject can easily reason out.

Kind regards,

Muhammad A Nasir

The purpose of my reply was to cut short a potentially lengthy yet conclusion less debate.

One has to draw the line between discussion and debate.

In discussion you engage in exchange of point of view with an open mind and then reach a conclusion.

In debate you engage to advocate an already arrived at conclusion.

The tone of presentation of your point of view was more akin to the latter.

There is nothing wrong with that.

But in my meagre experience I have known such discussions go on without either party agreeing to each other's opinion.

It even frequently turns acrimonious.

I wanted to avoid that as I believe that you are sincere and good and in time the PAF will redeem itself in your eyes.

Because I for one am an ardent believer that despite the terrible lapses in security and foresight on the part of air force, the brave job it has been doing ever since our independence ... standing firm against overwhelming odds and protecting our skies against a much nore numerous and better equipped adversary ... far out weighs the few incidents of goof-ups it has committed in the recent past.

I do not believe the complacency and negligence it has shown in peace time will be repeated again ... especially not when our homeland is threatened.

Platinum786 is right.

Furthermore it is quite difficult to shoot down an AWAC/AEW platform because it is forewarned of a missile launch upon it way before normal fighters and can take evasive action and deploy counter measures to get to safety. Also it is guarded by a group of fighters.

The plans for a strong defence for Pakistan is there and has been there.

But the resources required to realize them have never been.

Unfortunately recently and currently even less so.

We are not defenceless though, but neither are we inpregnable in defence.

We are slightly more than halfway in between.

But what I believe we do possess right now is that conventionally we can deliver an un-acceptable level of loss to the enemy, where the enemy analyzes and decides that it is not feasible to carry out any adventurism to attain their strategic goals objectives.

I have made a mental note that if you ever run for the membership of the National Assembly, I will vote against you and also warn people not to vote for you ... lest you get to be the PM and then all hell is going to break loose ... Mutually Assured Destruction! (Just kidding!).

Dear Generals Sirs, "Cutting Edge Upgrades"! Really? Sounds a little disingenuous to me. We are talking about a plane, which despite being good is also as good as obsolete. No amount of upgrades can make these relics competitive. I know that having planes is better than not having any: if nothing else, a plane allows you to train pilots. However, if we think we have competitive planes that can engage and win in today’s threat environment, we are simply deluding ourselves. Unlike the C-130s, the fighter planes have to do more than just be able to fly, and in a real shooting war, where you are not bombing your own people, you have to have competitive planes. Right now, we have none. JF-17 seems like a good plane light plane, perhaps it can work as a standoff interceptor; but if it was such a good deal, people will be falling over each other to buy these things. I hope that PAF is not going with them out of pride just to own up to a mistake. I think PAF has enough to train and evaluate its real unbiased performance. One does not bring a knife to a gunfight. Thank you for your attention. Nasir P.S. perhaps someone who has actually flown one can elighten us about their objective performance.

Criticizing the JF-17 Thunder, making remarks about it's capability, as if you are an expert.

I tell you what ...... let us know when you can finance $5 trillion to Pakistan Air Force and then we will be more than happy to build or buy combat aircraft that can destroy the entire indian air force/navy fleets.

Till that time, go educate yourself on the economic, demographic, political and regional state of Pakistan.

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

Son, Always begging for a freebee, yet always bragging! Reminds me of a little story of two dudes; one reaming the other…well I hope you know this old classic! Otherwise, ask your daddy. He was probably the fella who was being reamed. Now hold on to your horses! The boy/girl is using fancy words! We have to pay attention! What is a frig*ing "demographic"? It sounds like some lewd act between cabalists and goats! Does it have something to do with widespread demon worship in Parachinar? What in tarnation's name is a “Mujahid Hosein”? Let me guess: an Acid-PCP mix from Bengal? Am I right, or am I right! Do not worry; both baby and daddy are just having a bad trip from a batch gone bad. They will come down eventually, or not. I they don't make it we can count our blessings, if they do make it; encourage them to try peyote next time; it is all natural and all that tree-hugger crap, good for the “environment” and all. See, I know some fancy words too! I had almost forgotten how indelicate and butch some of the girls form Parachinar could be. Your go boy/girl! Just do it at some other place, unless you have that special itch! Now go ask daddy about that little story!

Is that all you could conjure up in you puny, $hit-face, rat-indian brain?

Take it from me, story telling ain't your best attribute. Stick to your retarded ranting, it's shows the mindless buffoon you really are.

Also, reading you post is like watchin an @$$ $hit himself. Don't know whose more a fuglier, you or the @$$.

Lastly ...... when you have managed to acquire yourself a working, functional and rationally sound brain. Then come and try runnin your mouth. I can assure, that even though I am not physically near you, I will managed to beat your head to a pulp, before you ruin a perfectly good brain.

Now run along kitty ...... Yo mama got some milk waitin for ya!!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

Dear Members, I know I am new, and I may be a little bit unorthodox. No one likes, newbies acting up. In all fairness, you are all entitled to test me and size me up. As a gesture of good faith, I am going to give everyone a fair shot for a week. I suggest whoever feel like it should take his or her best shot. A week should be long enough to test your machismo, mollify your egos, or address any other self-esteem issues that some of you might have. I am not restricting it to cyberspace: I will entertain all forms of hostility: personal, verbal, and physical. Let us mix it up! However, after one week, stupid comments might have adverse effects on your health. Since some idiots have already screwed up this thread. I will open a new one to discuss serious business at hand; we can keep this for snarky remarks, bitching, and whining. However, I will not like it at all if anyone messes with the real thread. It is as good a deal, as you are ever going to get from me. I am a man on a mission! I suggest that you go to town; get it all out of your systems. Respectfully, Muhammad A Nasir

====================================================

All the "Dear Members" are pretty much attuned to the fact that you're nothing more than a friggin retard, whose probably stuck in some dark, dingy, humid, internet-cafe. Somewhere in the gutter shanty habitats of india. Where you have manage to find yourself an activity to kill time, cuz your skanky, indian-@$$ couldn't get a friggin job!!

Sounds about right ........ RIGHT!?!?!!

Tell you what ..... you'd probably be better off, lickin the boots of your new American masters, than gettin one us (Pakistanis) pissed of in a small room with yourself. Lord alone knows, you'd probably wouldn't be able to walk at all after that encounter.

Giviin yourself a Muslim name, don't make you Muslim. Talkin to Pakistanis on a Pakistani forum, don't make you a Pakistani. Using structured sentences and havin a condescending tone, don't make you a Brit nor an America, rather their bootlicker!!

Now, now ...... don't be feelin too red in the face. It's only fair to treat a gutter-rat like you, the way you ought to be treated.

Oh what was that you said ........ boys & girls in Parachinar ........ Well ...... BOY ...... you're most welcome to Parachinar. I assure you, that no Horse would rape your @$$. Albeit, a couple of TTP uzbeks or harazites might. Knowing that their @$$e$ being handed to them by Lashkars & Pakistan Army.

And that's your cue ...... to make like a poodle.

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

Dear Dizasta, nay, Dizastah (yeh, that has more soul), Kid, you are a man of letters, a regular wordsmith if I may.

That's Mr. Dizasta to you, friggin retard!!! ............. And no you may not!!!

A bit mouthy, yet very poetic, and very imaginative; bravo!

Is that why you're here, to pay me compliments?

I used to know some Parachinar girls from St. Mary's, in Muree, when I when I went to school in that area. Come to think of it, I knew one boy from Parachinar too, not carnally, we did not roll your way. Actually, they were pretty decent folks. A bit on the fast side but quite civilized, nonetheless. Hard to believe they will be into that kind of horseplay But then again, who knows anyone well enough to pass a judgment.

Oye maggot ........ don't bore me with your queer stories. If you got a point to make ..... then make it already.

If devil worship has taken root there, I suppose horses could have become a local favorite too. Stranger things have happened.

Take from me, pal ......... you got a condition and for it, you need some serious psychiatric help.

Well you live and you learn! In the spirit of full disclosure as a token of good faith:

You take that good faith, along with that token of yours and shove it up your pie-hole ...... dickhead!

I swear on all that is holy, that I did not have relations with your mama! No son of mine, can be that much of a goofball!

Pal ..... a queer like you, can't have children. So carry-on ramblin like a mindless buffoon!!!

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go prepare for a class and then I have to take out the the garbage.

Awe ..... does the little kiddie-widdie have to go do some house chores!! Ain't that cute ...... mama's boy gotta go do his home work.

You go and wash out your potty mouth with soap and water, hard to beleive you kiss your mama with that filthy mouth.

You worry about your own hygiene ...... dickhead. As for kissin your mama is concerned ....... i'd rather not. Don't wanna catch any kinda disease from her!!

Kind regards and best wishes to your family, Respectfully, Muhammad A Nasir

Likewise!

Now run along .......... Mama's boy. And don't be a tattle tale, or you won't get any candy!!!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

Is "Mistah Dizastah" to your liking Sir? I am awfully sorry for my uppity tirade yesterday. Now, that is what I call quality response! Whatever happend to the art of playful banter. People are just too uptight these days! Yes, I admit I am running out of my internet cafe money, the power is going to go in a minute, and yes I do have to do more chores around the house. Oh, and I do see a Pir for my spritual/psychological welfare: we do not have psychiatrists in these boonies. About ten years ago an idealist young psychiatrist came to help us out, but after most of us ate, and she ate in return; a lot! Needless to say she figured out her true calling in life, she went to bay area to open a bordello. My very best regards to you and your family, Muhammad A Nasir P.S. I hope you did not bring up the subject with your mama, or your baby mama, because it is really not true!"Oye" is Yiddish! You are not Jewish are you?

I am a Sunni-Muslim (not that Shia's are any less a Muslim), a Pakistani in my heart, mind & Soul and a Pukhtun through and through.

Got all of that? ............ Good!!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........