This is a discussion on $2000 NLHE Full Ring: Intersting Spot within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; 5/10 NL Effective Stacks $1500
Villain (tight solid thinking player) opens UTG to $50, SB calls and we call out of the BB with Ahttp://www.talkingpoker.com/forum/images/smilies/spade.gifQhttp://www.talkingpoker.com/forum/images/smilies/spade.gif
Flop: Khttp://www.talkingpoker.com/forum/images/smilies/spade.gifJhttp://www.talkingpoker.com/forum/images/smilies/heart.gifThttp://www.talkingpoker.com/forum/images/smilies/spade.gif
SB

Villain (tight solid thinking player) opens UTG to $50, SB calls and we call out of the BB with AQ

Flop: KJT

SB checks, we check and villain checks

Turn: T

SB checks, we bet $100 and villain raises to $330

What's our plan for the rest of the hand?

Is this a case of our hand looking a lot better than it really is (bc we flopped nut/nut redraw, but if villain does have a boat we have 1 out)

What exactly is villain representing here? I ask because it's highly unlikely he checks behind a set or a Tx 2 pair here on this board last to act on the flop, but it's also equally as unlikely that he picks this spot to bluff (plus our read on him is tight solid and doesn't make a lot of moves)

Im thinking call then c/c a blank river? Any merit to c/ring a blank river?
Anyone give any consideration to folding the turn or the river if he bets big?

This looks more like a defensive raise with a hand like AA or AK, which I can see tight players checking back. If so, he'll probably hesitate to give action to a turn re-raise. It's also possible (though probably unlikely if he's tight, though I don't know how "tight" a tight live UTG player is) that he has AT, or perhaps a combination of "finding out where he's at" and semibluff raise with QJ.

Folding the turn will almost never enter my mind. He'd have to be exceptionally nitty and be known to also slowplay flopped monsters on scary boards for me to be able to manage that. I might, if I think he's tight, call the turn and lead smallish on most rivers with the intention of folding to a re-raise. That will often squeeze a little bit more value out of his defensive hands (i.e. raising AK for a "free" showdown, and then you go and ruin it for him by betting and now he feels compelled to call), and you won't pay as much to find out that you're beat. If you lead turn, call a raise and then lead the river on this board, he'd have to be a near-maniac to try to bluff, and it's scary for him to even value-raise AQ when you do that.

If you're not really certain as to how tricky he can be on the river, though, c/c is my preferred line.

#3

31st December 2009, 3:58 AM

baudib1 [6,604]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: NLHE

can i ask why we're not betting this flop?

#4

31st December 2009, 4:41 AM

WVHillbilly [22,659]

Poker at: Full Tilt

re: Poker & $2000 NLHE Full Ring: Intersting Spot

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib1

can i ask why we're not betting this flop?

I would assume the plan was to ch/r the flop but the PF raiser didn't cbet and ruined our plans.

I like calling and leading for a decent sized value bet on the river.

#5

31st December 2009, 5:18 AM

StormRaven [2,510]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: holdem

With a tight player I'm also thinking of hands like AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ.
Obviously we have to hope he doesn't have KK and that's probably the only possibility I'm putting him on. However, him not betting the flop is a bit scary to me. Is he the type to slow play a monster if he flopped a set? Or did he have QQ and feared not betting the K high flop?

I have to agree with F Paulsson on the turn, I think here I am calling his reraise, leading out with a smaller river bet, like 1/2 the pot and folding if he comes way over the top. Mostly I'm hoping since he checked the flop then he will simply call the river bet and not reraise.

Is this live? If so I think the argument that I was about to post: "villain will almost never checks back anything that makes a boat on this turn" could be out the window since live players are just so retarded in general...

Otherwise, I think we almost always have the best hand and I don't think villain ever folds to a 3bet on the turn, so go ahead and reraise for value.

I guess he could be bluffing or something and our 3bet pushes him off, but I don't really see anyone doing that in this spot too often.

So yeah, I'm 3betting kinda big and value betting most rivers.

***just realized your read on him is that he's tight, solid and a thinking player...that makes me completely confused about his line. I agree with Fredrik, this is often AT or a defensive play/FL raise to get a cheap showdown play...I guess 3betting blows him off those hands sometimes, in which case I do like the line of calling and donking river - it looks full of shit and prevents him from getting his cheap showdown.

#7

31st December 2009, 9:42 AM

Zybomb [372]

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib1

can i ask why we're not betting this flop?

In general when I flop or have broadway I almost always play it fast because of the high likelihood of someone having two pair and not folding, so when I checked the flop I was planning to c/r.

As far as donking the flop I thought if I did that, although I could get action from UTG with a flat or a raise, I was pretty sure he'd bet this flop and I could try and squeeze in the SB as well where as if I lead I'd likely squeeze him out. Had I been in the SB (relative position blah blah blah) I would certainly give it more consideration, although I think it still poses a problem, bc I think we get more $$ against two pair hands by check raising then betting the turn if they will call (we get three bets in) rather then betting the flop which they may flat (we lose a bet) or they may raise but then check behind the turn with (we lose a bet).... actually with a board this drawy theyd probably keep firing a blank, and if they flat the flop bet they certainly might raise the turn so maybe it doesn't matter

On the flop we're obviously trying to make the pot as big as possible/get as much $ in as we can, so you figure what's the best way to do that...

If we donk:

- PFR raises which squeezes out SB (we lose one bet if he would have called)
- We flat the raise and check the turn, but he checks right behind us (we lose a bet if he would have called a c/r and a turn bet) [i think 3 betting here will cause THIS particular villain to fold all non set hands, although I agree we can basically get stacks in if he has KK JJ TT]

- PFR flats (we lose a bet if he would've called a c/r)

- PFR has air or a middle pocket pair and folds (we lose a CBet)

If we check:

- PFR is betting this flop a boatload so we usually get a CBet out of missed hands

- We attempt to squeeze the SB in with hands like Qx Kx or even something like JT which may fold to a donk / raise by the PFRer

- There are some hands in villains range that might flat or raise/check behind turn, but would call a check raise (AK AA KQ, less likely QQ)

Granted ALL this wasnt goin through my head when I checked... just more often than not when I have relative position I let the PFR do the initial betting to squeeze as much dead money in the pot from other players as possible, rather than donking into him and him possibly raising and forcing this extra $ out). Like I said had my relative position been worse I would have given more thought into donking this flop

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

Is this live?

Yea this is a live hand.

#8

31st December 2009, 11:21 PM

Zybomb [372]

re: Poker & $2000 NLHE Full Ring: Intersting Spot

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormRaven

So how did this hand play out?

I'll see if this gets any more responses for a few and then fill in the results in a day or so

#9

3rd January 2010, 9:54 AM

TimmyOtool [95]

Online Poker at: Full tilt

Game: NL

I like calling the turn and leading river for bout $400-500 with intention of folding to a re-raise.

If he is a pretty tight player, theres not a lot of AT that a good tight player would raise from UTG unless it was suited, but if it was ATs, the only combo that would make sense is AcTc which is only 1 combo.

Right now, seems like the only hand that makes any sense... hard to put him on a set/2pair on the flop.

#10

3rd January 2010, 11:48 AM

Zybomb [372]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zybomb

I'll see if this gets any more responses for a few and then fill in the results in a day or so

We called the turn with the intention of check raising a small bet or checking calling a large one on a blank river, or leading out a spade river (the merits and pros/cons to this decision can be argued and I'd be interested)

River blanked and Villain tanked for 10 seconds before checking behind ATs (the only hand in the deck that makes sense obviously..... we suck)

#11

4th January 2010, 2:40 AM

RAFC24 [180]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt Po

Game: holdem

I love these threads they'r gold

#12

5th January 2010, 1:48 AM

TimmyOtool [95]

Poker at: Full tilt

Game: NL

re: Poker & $2000 NLHE Full Ring: Intersting Spot

AcTc?

Wouldn't check raising the river fold out most hands that would we beat (AA/AK), and let him re-raise hands that have us crushed (KK/JJ/etc) ?

Damn that really sucks to have him check back AT there, but I think the concensus was really to c/c turn and bet/fold river blank...

#13

5th January 2010, 3:23 AM

Zybomb [372]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmyOtool

AcTc?

Wouldn't check raising the river fold out most hands that would we beat (AA/AK), and let him re-raise hands that have us crushed (KK/JJ/etc) ?

Damn that really sucks to have him check back AT there, but I think the concensus was really to c/c turn and bet/fold river blank...

We were only c/ring small bets, which I think villain could read into enough to think we are raising bc it appears he is value betting thinly with a small bet size and thus can't call. A bigger bet we'd c/c (IMO he wouldn't bet small with a boat here)

As far as spades, we were gunna lead out spade rivers simply bc villain may check behind some hands that he'd bet otherwise, and chances are we arent expected to have a flush draw on this spot (calling a raise with 1 card to come on a paired board) so they should be called down and it takes away the fact that villain might raise light with weaker holdings or bluff raise ever

As far as leading the river myself on a blank, I wasn't comfortable with bet/folding the river and thought bet/calling might be spew. I certainly didn't expect villain to check behind AT (I'd have VB it) but eh.... I do agree leading all rivers is good when villain raised the turn for a free showdown but will call down small-medium river bets