I think that both sides of this debate are right in some way, although I come down more heavily on Dereck and Tek's side. Patterns will help people spar better- afterall, how could practising kicks, punches and footwork fail to help in some way.

The question is, are patterns an effective way to improve sparring? I would say that they are clearly not. Effective ways to improve sparring are padwork, drills and the like that kickboxers are doing as we speak.

With my old TKD Hat on:I would say that You need to be good at patterns and good at sparring to be a complete Martial Artist. It is a matter of attempting to exceed at everything you can. The balance, timing, posture, power, intent and focus that you apply to performing Tuls, should be matched by the same qualities you bring to Self Defense and Sparring.

But that is just my viewpoint of personal attributes of a Martial Artist...... Now for TKD as an Art. It is a conglomeration of unrelated activities, in the same way a lot of Karate styles are.

I lost interest in TKD because as I have said previously:1. TKD Patterns are too obscure and have no relivance today. That is why some people publish books, making a living by doing a "Divinci Code" approach. Kidding you that these posture sequences are actually useable. NO THET ARE NOT!!!Be Real!! Nobody really uses them in sparring or Self Defense.BUT... they will be defended by those who are fearful of seeig the reality of the situation.

2. Self Defense in TKD is in the majority, a afterthought and in the minority, dowright dangerous and unuseable.

3. Sparring, well - this doesn't match self defence or pattern techniques. These are generally point stop or point scoring dances.

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I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

I think that both sides of this debate are right in some way, although I come down more heavily on Dereck and Tek's side. Patterns will help people spar better- afterall, how could practising kicks, punches and footwork fail to help in some way.

The question is, are patterns an effective way to improve sparring? I would say that they are clearly not. Effective ways to improve sparring are padwork, drills and the like that kickboxers are doing as we speak.

The most effective way to improve your sparring, even more than pad work/drills forms, ect, is to get your ass beat in the ring a few times and analyze what the heck you did wrong and what the heck you did well, but again this is not the only way to improve on sparring. This is why I say one would be better off with every eliment TKD has to offer, then one will truly be as good as they are capable of becomming. I believe that Tek, Derick,and yourself were refering to the get in there and do it as the way to train for sparring and you are correct to some degree. I have no problem admitting that this approuch will improve ones sparring. What I am saying is that the best and most complete fighters/competitors are the ones with the most complete training, from the basics( patterns, Tulls, forms however one refers to them ) to eventually getting in there and going for it. How accuratly could one really analyze and assess their performance if they never understood the basics. Example, one may conclude that if they would have gotten their side kick off sooner durring a match their opponent may not have been able to have scored, they may be accurate in this assessment, however, they never really worked on their side kick other than in the ring and do not realize that their side kick sucks. This is just one possibility out of millions of possibilities that one may incounter. By doing forms/patterns/tulls you break the movments down and others break them down and evaluate and assess things along with you untill whala! you have a good side kick that can be incorporated into good healthy competitive sparring. In my example above, it may not have been the speed of the side kick that caused the person to get scored on, it may have been that the thing that makes their side kick suck is that they simply telegraph the kick because of poor technique. If one just gets in there and sparres one should get pretty good at it but I will always put my money on the complete fighter not the complete sparrer.

Von, I can understand what you are saying to a degree. Take for example your example of the fighter who's side kick sucks. Do you honestly believe his side kick is going to improve by kicking imaginary opponents in the air through a form? Or can you honestly admit that he would be better off training in class doing live techniques such as kicking a shield while somebody held it or on a heavy bag while somebody pointed out what he needs to improve? Or working with a partner on actual sparring but just not at as high of levels to work on foot work, timing, distance and actual techniques so that his partner or a third partner can make corrections and suggestions?

The thing is if you want to do something then you need to train for that specific thing in order to make it better. If your goal is to be a fighter then fight and train to fight and cut out all of the other bull$hit that is just fluff and will take up valuable training time. But also realize that is what you are, a fighter.

The same goes for anything else you want, in martial arts or in life. Cut out those things that you don't need in order to accomplish what you do need and don't waste your valuable time. Time is better spend DOING then kinda of doing.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

[quote=Dereck]Von, I can understand what you are saying to a degree. Take for example your example of the fighter who's side kick sucks. Do you honestly believe his side kick is going to improve by kicking imaginary opponents in the air through a form? Or can you honestly admit that he would be better off training in class doing live techniques such as kicking a shield while somebody held it or on a heavy bag while somebody pointed out what he needs to improve? Or working with a partner on actual sparring but just not at as high of levels to work on foot work, timing, distance and actual techniques so that his partner or a third partner can make corrections and suggestions? (end quote)

Yes, yes, yes and yes to all above. This is my point, training in all this will make one a better fighter.

(quote)The thing is if you want to do something then you need to train for that specific thing in order to make it better. If your goal is to be a fighter then fight and train to fight and cut out all of the other bull$hit that is just fluff and will take up valuable training time. But also realize that is what you are, a fighter. (end quote)

Agreed, after one has a grasp of the basics and becomes more experienced this is an option, however this debate started with a discussion about an instructor that is only going to teach Olympic sparring and nothing else. My reply is that I thought that this is not the way to go, I sparr under WTF and the best fighters are always the more rounded fighters, they got to be well rounded by learning and practicing all of what their art has to offer. Hell you can even improve your sparring to some degree by training weapons! this opens the mind to even more techniques and possibilities, not directly but indirectly as does training other elements of an art.

(quote)The same goes for anything else you want, in martial arts or in life. Cut out those things that you don't need in order to accomplish what you do need and don't waste your valuable time. Time is better spend DOING then kinda of doing. ( end quote)

Yes eventually we will all become specilized and focus on what that specialty is. One can learn to communcate and not understand the a,e,i,o,u"s but the persons that have a really good undersdanding of the a,e,i,o,u"s will go on to become better comunicators, and that is what other components of training bring to the sparring game, the forms/patterns are the a,e,i,o,u"s of fighting.

Take for example your example of the fighter who's side kick sucks. Do you honestly believe his side kick is going to improve by kicking imaginary opponents in the air through a form?

I personally find it much easier to kick a target than to kick in the air for patterns. Not having the resistance of a target means you must work on other aspects of your kick, such as balance and coordination. If you only kick a target, how do you expect to handle a situation where the target moves and you miss. Yes kicking a bag or target is important to build strength, but you have to have good technique first or you'll hurt yourself if you don't and kick too hard.

Patterns are one of the few aspects of a martial art that anyone can do, regardless of age or disability. We have two students who for various medical reasons are not allowed to spar. We have another student with a bad back from a car accident. Doing sweep take downs could severely injure her. But everyone can practice a pattern.

Patterns teach balance, focus, and discipline. Without those all you get is a person who likes to hit people.

Whether we like it or not, the role of popular Martial Arts in todays society has changed. Parents now want MA Instructors to correct bad behavior in their child because they are unable or unwilling to do so themselves. The MA class is one of the few places left where a child is required to stand still, pay attention, follow rules, be courteous, and focus. Take a typical ADHD student, if you are working on bag or paddle drills they will be looking off in any direction, giggling, doing whatever, kick the paddle then go back to giggling. But with pattern work the student must be fully focused for the minute or two it takes to do that pattern.

The watering down of Kukki by the WTF committees and Olympic wannabees, the self destructive willy-measuring contests of ITF Canada/Vienna/North Korea/South korea/ the club down the road/Outonyerear/whatever...

Hopefully it'll become passe, all the tKD mums will become Baby-BJJ mums or something... and people will get fed up of the ego/money driven politics.

Then those who really care about the art might just regroup, start speaking with each other for the sake of the art, and return to more hardcore training and exploration of the art, not the bank balance.

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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Like yourself, it troubles me that I know of many good practitioners in both camps, who really train hard and can use their TKD. Then when you say to another style, "I do TKD" you get a pitying smile and nod which kind of says "Ah, Tae-Bo without music!"

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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!