oss4lib-discuss

Yes, like this! Also mainstream library organizations like ALA, PLA and even
the regional ones. I'm not qualified to give any demos on open source for
libraries at our local NLA (Nebraska Library Association) but that doesn't
mean a speaker couldn't be brought in.
Carol Erkens, Webmaster
Omaha Public Library
215 South 15th Street
Omaha, NE 68102
(402)444-3399
Omaha Public Library HomePage
-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Trehub [mailto:a-trehub@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 2:12 PM
To: oss4lib-discuss@...
Subject: [oss4lib-discuss] Mainstreaming OSS for libraries
Folks,
Carol Erkens wrote:
"It seems to me, then, the place to start showing libraries that OSS is a
way to help all libraries is to start with the library organizations."
The Digital Library Federation (DLF:
http://www.clir.org/diglib/dlfhomepage.htm) might just be one of those
organizations.
At the DLF Spring Forum in San Francisco earlier this month, I gave a
presentation entitled "Personalized Library Services: The Case for an
Open-Source Software Archive". After describing OSS4, I urged the DLF to
get involved in publicizing and promoting open-source software for
libraries. I'm attaching the relevant section of my talk below; the full
text of this and other presentations should eventually be available through
the DLF Web site.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying the DLF should be the only player.
There's plenty of room for other library organizations to get involved too.
The more, the merrier.
Best,
Aaron
Aaron Trehub
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
128 Observatory
901 South Mathews Avenue
Urbana, IL 61801
Telephone: (217) 333-0284
Fax: (217) 333-7011
E-mail: a-trehub@...
Excerpt from "Personalized Library Services: The Case for an Open-Source
Software Archive" (DLF Spring Forum, San Francisco, CA, May 5, 2001).
"IS THERE A ROLE HERE FOR THE DLF?
I think there is. As I see it, the DLF can help to promote the use of
open-source library software in four ways:
First, by providing credibility.
Despite success stories like Linux and Apache, open-source software is
still slightly suspect. It has a whiff of the counterculture about it. It
conjures up
images of guerrilla programmers bent on smashing the monopoly of the evil
commercial software companies. The endorsement of established consortiums
like the DLF can help to dispel this image. In other words, the DLF can
help to legitimize open-source library software and bring it into the
mainstream of
library systems development.
Second, by providing publicity.
The more people know about open-source software, the more likely it is that
useful products will emerge. As the leading consortium in the
digital-library
field, the DLF can help to promote the awareness of open-source library
software solutions through its forums, its publications (printed and
electronic),
and its Web site.
Third, by providing stability.
The OSS4 archive is sustained by the enthusiasm of a few committed people,
some of them (apparently) without visible means of support. Enthusiasm in
the service of a worthy enterprise is a fine thing. However, the Web is
littered with the cyber-detritus of once-promising projects that were long
on
enthusiasm but short on resources. How much would it cost for the DLF to
host the OSS4 archive and give it a permanent--or at least a more
stable--home?
And fourth, by providing direction and (where necessary) coordination.
One of the remarkable things about the open-source movement has been its
ability to enlist the disinterested enthusiasm of hundreds of talented
people in
the service of a common goal: the creation of superb software that
addresses real-world needs.
The question of direction and coordination, therefore, is a difficult one.
Too much direction can kill the enthusiasm--the "lonely impulse of
delight"--on
which open-source software development depends. On the other hand, no
direction at all can lead to wasted effort and, ultimately, irrelevancy.
The DLF can
help by identifying needs, posing challenges, and (perhaps) providing
limited logistical support.
(...)
In his now-classic article on Linux and open-source software, The Cathedral
and the Bazaar, Eric S. Raymond contrasted the "cathedral" model of the
commercial software-development world with the "bazaar" model of the
open-source world.
I believe it's time for us to open a bazaar for open-source digital-library
software development. A lot of very useful work has been done by Dan Chudnov
and the people behind OSS4. By bringing its influence and resources to bear
on this project, the DLF can help move it to the next stage. I would be
happy to
assist in this endeavor."
_______________________________________________
oss4lib-discuss@...
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
see also http://oss4lib.org

Carol Erkens exclaimed:
> Yes, like this! Also mainstream library organizations like
> ALA, PLA and even
> the regional ones. I'm not qualified to give any demos on
> open source for
> libraries at our local NLA (Nebraska Library Association) but
> that doesn't
> mean a speaker couldn't be brought in.
Mainstreaming Library organizations is indeed what is currently going on,
and what should continue to be pursued. Last year at ALA annual, O'Reilly &
Associates worked with the Open Source Systems Interest group to provide
booth space to demo Open Source Projects. About 4 of us spent most of our
ALA time at the booth, talking with librarians and library staff, demo'ing a
large variety of projects. It was both exhausting and rewarding (I would
definitely do it again, but I would like to see a number of companies /
organizations team together to provide the venue to demo OSS, and I would
like to see a larger number of demo'ers). Additionally, by working with
O'Reilly, we were able to get Tim O'Reilly to speak on the Open Source
movement to a large audience, and this year at ALA (*shameless plug*) we are
lucky enough to get Larry Wall (inventor of the PERL programming language)
to speak to the library community.
Being able to reach the mainstream library audience and organizations is
important, because it's one direction from which to acknowledge Open
Source's value to libraries (and vice-versa). I think the earlier idea that
David made about an OSLN is also just as vital. Additionally, working the
established organizations to adopt and incorporate Open Source (and by
nature open standards) is the 3rd area I see as important in order for
libraries to incorporate Open Source software as being integral to our
success now and in the future.
Well, enough for today. I hope Eric is getting some good info for his
speech! ;-)
-- Jeremy
---------------------------------
Jeremy Frumkin
Metadata / Digital Development Librarian
University of Arizona Libraries
frumkinj@...
+1 520 621 2916
---------------------------------
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate" - Cool Hand Luke

Terence Sheridan, here:
> Carol Erkens wrote:
>
> "It seems to me, then, the place to start showing libraries that OSS is a
> way to help all libraries is to start with the library organizations."
Does anyone have advice on how to get the ball rolling at a state or regional level association?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Terence Sheridan
Librarian
Southern Christian University
1200 Taylor Rd.
Montgomery, AL 36117
(334)387-3877
FAX: (334)387-3878
terencesheridan@...
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Dan,
Nice to meet you; and thanks for the corrections. No disparagement of
oss4lib intended!
>On the other hand, if y'all had suggestions/desires for new functionality
>or services for which oss4lib would be a good home, or if you feel it has
>already approached cyber-detritus status, it might make sense to seek
>funding if there's a plausible model to back it up. Anything in mind?
Well, yes.
First, we've developed some programs here at Illinois that might be
candidates for inclusion in oss4lib. Among them are:
--A Web-based bibliographic search engine and interface that allows users
to select terms from a keyword thesaurus and load them directly into their
search statement;
--A personalized, profile-driven alert service for federal and private
funding opportunities in all disciplines; and
--A workform/template for creating and submitting records to an
area-studies bibliography via the Web; this would seem to relate to Eric
Lease Morgan's and Gordon Paynter's postings on building DIY
indexing/cataloging tools and services.
These programs are part of the Illinois Researcher Information Service
(IRIS) and the American Bibliography of Slavic and East European Studies
(ABSEES). I hope they could be adapted for use in other, similar services.
The programs were written in Perl and Java by John Walder, a research
programmer at the University of Illinois Graduate School of Library and
Information Science (GSLIS). John's address is j-walder@... I've
already pointed him to oss4lib; you might want to follow up.
Second, I'm trying to organize a meeting to explore specific ways in which
the DLF and other organizations can help promote OSS for libraries. Dan
Greenstein at the DLF has said that his outfit would be willing to support
such a meeting, within reason (I believe his exact words were "no meeting
in the Bahamas"). Interested?
Have a good weekend,
Aaron
Aaron Trehub
Director, Illinois Researcher Information Service (IRIS)
Executive Editor, American Bibliography of Slavic and East European Studies
(ABSEES)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
128 Observatory
901 South Mathews Avenue
Urbana, IL 61801
Telephone: (217) 333-0284
Fax: (217) 333-7011
E-mail: a-trehub@...
http://www.library.uiuc.edu/iris/http://www.library.uiuc.edu/absees/
At 11:00 AM -0500 5/25/01, Daniel Chudnov wrote:
>Wow, what a great thread.
>
>Regarding the following specific point you passed in by value:
>
>
>On Tue, 22 May 2001, Aaron Trehub wrote:
>
>> However, the Web is littered with the cyber-detritus of once-promising
>> projects that were long on enthusiasm but short on resources. How much
>> would it cost for the DLF to host the OSS4 archive and give it a
>> permanent--or at least a more stable--home?
>
>
>Pardon my protective instincts, but oss4lib, the
>weblog-and-list-but-not-archive, has a permanent, stable home. As is it
>doesn't need any more funding than it already has, which is sourced in
>time, not dollars, from its volunteer maintainers, which has sustained it
>mostly regularly for 2.4 years.
>
>On the other hand, if y'all had suggestions/desires for new functionality
>or services for which oss4lib would be a good home, or if you feel it has
>already approached cyber-detritus status, it might make sense to seek
>funding if there's a plausible model to back it up. Anything in mind?
>
>
> -Dan

At 01:43 PM 5/25/01 -0500, Aaron Trehub wrote:
>>Second, I'm trying to organize a meeting to explore specific ways in which
>>the DLF and other organizations can help promote OSS for libraries.
As a suggestion, such a meeting should bring together folks from the OSS
community, folks from the "progressive" library technology community, and
folks who you would expect to oppose or ignore OSS. It's important to get
the believers and the non-believers together so they can begin to settle
their differences. In my experience, believers are often unaware of the
real-life constraints of the non-believers, but might be able to tailor
their products to address some of these. Non-believers think believers will
never listen to them, or that they have nothing to gain from a dialog.
kc
----------------------------------------------
Karen Coyle karen.coyle@...
University of California Digital Library
http://www.kcoyle.net 510/987-0567
----------------------------------------------

On Fri, 25 May 2001, Aaron Trehub wrote:
> >On the other hand, if y'all had suggestions/desires for new functionality
> >or services for which oss4lib would be a good home, or if you feel it has
> >already approached cyber-detritus status, it might make sense to seek
> >funding if there's a plausible model to back it up. Anything in mind?
>
> Well, yes.
>
> First, we've developed some programs here at Illinois that might be
> candidates for inclusion in oss4lib. Among them are:
> <project_descriptions/>
Ok, email sent. Anyone can post news of specific projects to oss4lib.org
at any time (and when I'm not away on travel all week I'll respond nearly
immediately :). And lots of folks do. Btw that's not what I meant by
"functionality or services".
> Second, I'm trying to organize a meeting to explore specific ways in which
> the DLF and other organizations can help promote OSS for libraries. Dan
> Greenstein at the DLF has said that his outfit would be willing to support
> such a meeting, within reason (I believe his exact words were "no meeting
> in the Bahamas"). Interested?
It's the BAHAMAS or NO DEAL.
If you set up such an event I'd suspect you'd get many folks on this list
and many others who administer folks on this list to consider attending.
Just let us know when and where (well, so, no bahamas is ok I guess :).
-Dan

hi
> > Second, I'm trying to organize a meeting to explore specific ways in which
> > the DLF and other organizations can help promote OSS for libraries. Dan
> > Greenstein at the DLF has said that his outfit would be willing to support
> > such a meeting, within reason (I believe his exact words were "no meeting
> > in the Bahamas"). Interested?
What about New Zealand :-) The exchange rate is really good :-)
Cheers
Rachel
_____________________________________________________________
Rachel Hamilton-Williams Katipo Communications
WEBMISTRESS ph 021 389 128 or +64 04 934 1285
mailto:rachel@... PO Box 12487, Wellington
http://www.katipo.co.nz New Zealand

I'd vote for New Zealand, but I don't think I could get funding for the
airplane ticket. However, I do think such a meeting would be a good idea
where ever it is.
Ed C.
On Sun, 27 May 2001, Rachel Hamilton-Williams wrote:
> hi
>
> > > Second, I'm trying to organize a meeting to explore specific ways in which
> > > the DLF and other organizations can help promote OSS for libraries. Dan
> > > Greenstein at the DLF has said that his outfit would be willing to support
> > > such a meeting, within reason (I believe his exact words were "no meeting
> > > in the Bahamas"). Interested?
>
> What about New Zealand :-) The exchange rate is really good :-)
>
> Cheers
> Rachel
>
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> Rachel Hamilton-Williams Katipo Communications
> WEBMISTRESS ph 021 389 128 or +64 04 934 1285
> mailto:rachel@... PO Box 12487, Wellington
> http://www.katipo.co.nz New Zealand
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> oss4lib-discuss@...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
> see also http://oss4lib.org
>

Karen states it correctly - without getting the believers and non-believers
talking together to discuss the real issues (and not just shouting "open
source is the answer to all of our ills" and "open source sucks"), we won't
get integration of Open Source methods/software/values/understanding into
the library community.
We also, as Rachel says, need to do more legwork in promoting OSS and
furthering its incorporation by providing more and better documentation,
workshops, regional institutes, etc. We need to do more events, and we need
to have sponsorship in an official form from established organizations.
The immersion workshop is a great idea; having some 'officialness' from
established organizations, such as LITA, OCLC, big-name libraries, the DLF,
etc. would be even better. Having attendance by well-known people (in the
library world) would be the best.
An immersion workshop like this would have to be very focussed. I want to
hear what sorts of activities would be most beneficial in a week-long event
- I envision not only hands-on training being done, but group readings and
discussions based on libraries, technology, and how Open Source fits into
the "big picture". What do others think?
Karen Coyle wrote:
> As a suggestion, such a meeting should bring together folks
> from the OSS
> community, folks from the "progressive" library technology
> community, and
> folks who you would expect to oppose or ignore OSS. It's
> important to get
> the believers and the non-believers together so they can
> begin to settle
> their differences. In my experience, believers are often
> unaware of the
> real-life constraints of the non-believers, but might be able
> to tailor
> their products to address some of these. Non-believers think
> believers will
> never listen to them, or that they have nothing to gain from a dialog.
>
> kc
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Karen Coyle karen.coyle@...
> University of California Digital Library
> http://www.kcoyle.net 510/987-0567
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> oss4lib-discuss@...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
> see also http://oss4lib.org
>

On Tue, 29 May 2001, Frumkin, Jeremy wrote:
> Karen states it correctly - without getting the believers and non-believers
> talking together to discuss the real issues (and not just shouting "open
> source is the answer to all of our ills" and "open source sucks"), we won't
> get integration of Open Source methods/software/values/understanding into
> the library community.
>
> We also, as Rachel says, need to do more legwork in promoting OSS and
> furthering its incorporation by providing more and better documentation,
> workshops, regional institutes, etc. We need to do more events, and we need
> to have sponsorship in an official form from established organizations.
>
> The immersion workshop is a great idea; having some 'officialness' from
> established organizations, such as LITA, OCLC, big-name libraries, the DLF,
> etc. would be even better. Having attendance by well-known people (in the
> library world) would be the best.
>
> An immersion workshop like this would have to be very focussed. I want to
> hear what sorts of activities would be most beneficial in a week-long event
> - I envision not only hands-on training being done, but group readings and
> discussions based on libraries, technology, and how Open Source fits into
> the "big picture". What do others think?
>
I'm wondering if a week-long event is biting off too big a chunk. I like
Karen Coyle's focus of 'folks from the OSS community, folks from the
"progressive" library technology community, and folks who you would expect
to oppose or ignore OSS'
(http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/6067/2001/5/0/5830835/). I think a
major hurdle is getting established vendors (who as we all know have huge
influence in the libraries that use their products) to incorporate OSS
thinking, code, and support models into their usually proprietary systems.
A forum that brought together the people Karen describes would go a long
way to broadening the perspectives of both the people in the OSS camp and
the vendors who may not be open to it right now.
By way of a plug, I think beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia would be a
great place to hold a forum. It's not a city where ALA is ever held
(obviously), but it's not that far out of the way for a lot of people.
However, the most important thing is to get the vendors to attend so the
best place to hold a gathering would be somewhere vendors would travel to
readily.
Mark
Mark Jordan
Librarian / Analyst, Systems Division
W.A.C. Bennett Library, Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, British Columbia, V5A 1S6, Canada
Phone (604) 291 5753 / Fax (604) 291 3023
mjordan@... / http://www.sfu.ca/~mjordan/

-----Original Message-----
Mark Jordan wrote:
>I'm wondering if a week-long event is biting off too big a chunk. I like
>Karen Coyle's focus of 'folks from the OSS community, folks from the
>"progressive" library technology community, and folks who you would expect
>to oppose or ignore OSS'
>(http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/6067/2001/5/0/5830835/). I think a
>major hurdle is getting established vendors (who as we all know have huge
>influence in the libraries that use their products) to incorporate OSS
>thinking, code, and support models into their usually proprietary systems.
>A forum that brought together the people Karen describes would go a long
>way to broadening the perspectives of both the people in the OSS camp and
>the vendors who may not be open to it right now.
Why not consider both? I'm sure there are many like me who would appreciate
an intense hands-on training session in a regional setting. I know what I
would like to do but learning how to do it on my own is intimidating to say
the least. A week might be a long time, depending on how many people can
come for training. The fewer people, the more hands-on it can be
(considering how many computers can be spared to be "played with".)
I can see the entire thing as a multi-fold project. Training, education,
agreement and support are all necessary elements. I don't want to get stuck
with "only the vendor knows how to make it work" any more. That aspect
stinks when time is critical and a product has crashed for the bazillionth
time (yes, yes, I know I'm exaggerating).
Carol Erkens, Webmaster
Omaha Public Library
215 South 15th Street
Omaha, NE 68102
(402)444-3399
Omaha Public Library HomePage

At 10:46 AM 5/30/01 -0500, Erkens, Carol (LIB) wrote:
>I can see the entire thing as a multi-fold project. Training, education,
>agreement and support are all necessary elements.
It occurs to me that we are talking about OSS as if it relates to *content*
rather than a licensing/collaboration style. Basically, people choose
software for what it can do, not how it was developed. In order to do
training, there has to be a particular software package that people want to
use. If there are multiple options, then we seem to think that we can show
them that there are advantages to choosing the open source option. The
other advantage to open source is that you can participate in the
development of software that doesn't yet exist. So the "training,
education, support" are for software packages that exist. The "learn about
OSS" is for convincing people that open source is a good method for meeting
otherwise unmet needs. It seems that hands-on training works for the
former, and a different venue would be needed for the latter.
The big question in my mind is: what OSS exists today that people in the
library field want to learn to use? A list of those packages (MyLibrary,
??) would give us a list of potential training sessions.
----------------------------------------------
Karen Coyle karen.coyle@...
University of California Digital Library
http://www.kcoyle.net 510/987-0567
----------------------------------------------

Karen Coyle wrote:
>The big question in my mind is: what OSS exists today that people in the
>library field want to learn to use? A list of those packages (MyLibrary,
>?) would give us a list of potential training sessions.
I'd be happy to know how to install and administer an Apache server, .php
and MySQL on a Unix box. How to build MySQL databases geared for libraries.
Eric Lease Morgan sent an email about reviews of index(on-site search)
packages. A session showing what it takes to get a few of them up and
running and how to administer them would be helpful as well.
I don't know about others on the list but the majority of people in my
library system, including the tech people, know NOTHING about OSS. That's
not to say the database admin and I aren't willing to learn, we just don't
want to screw stuff up in the process.
Carol Erkens, Webmaster
Omaha Public Library
215 South 15th Street
Omaha, NE 68102
(402)444-3399
Omaha Public Library HomePage