"I think this thread could use less hyperbole and more facts. What's really going on here?"

hear, hear.

But c'mon. We're never going to get a straight answer out of these people. Can't everyone see that? They are showing you how they behave. Here. Evasion, puffery, false piety, passive aggressive attacks, dodges, feints, continually shifting names, allegiances. How can this in any way be considered a serious Buddhist organization? (Well, actually, it can't.)

I wish I had a clear list documenting every single name change Paul Lynch has himself adopted in the last 3 years, never mind his organizations, of which I've tracked at least 5.

In 2008, even by Lynch's own admission he left his only actual bona fide teacher in controversy (never mind the multiple dozens he's claimed to have "studied with" - there's no dispute he sat on cushions in rooms with plenty of people over the years. Anyone who practices for any time ends up meeting a lot of teachers; only a shyster would claim them then as his teachers.)

That one real teacher revoked his only qualification to teach - a provisional designation, NOT dharma transmission. The title for that designation is Ji Do Poep Sa Nim. After Moore told him he could no longer consider himself authorized as that, Lynch led so-called retreats in Second Life using that title, and elsewhere for the next year. And that was the only thing he claimed for that first year.

Here, (http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=2740), in June 2009 Paul Lynch is suddenly calling himself "sensei" and said to be engaged in "advanced koan studies with James Ford." He usually also included the names of John Tarrant and Robert Aitken, to further puff up the claim. While sensei only means teacher in Japanese, in the US, and especially in rinzai lineages in the US, it is used a specific designation of a certain attained transmitted degree or level. Lynch knows this, and that's why he used it.

I and others have asked Ford about this. He says simply, that's not true. Lynch shouldn't have said this. He was NEVER his student, seirous or otherwise. They had met and that was all. When someone asked Lynch on Facebook why he said this when Ford says its not true, Lynch said "Find one place I ever said this." I really think Lynch has some psychological or cognitive issues, because even at that time there were at least 20 places you find this claim, including on some of his own (many many) websites. He likes to self-promote, clearly.

It's also why for years he often used the term 'inka' talking about his qualifications to teach; in the Rinzai tradition it means transmission. In the Korean, it doesn't. He gave students Rinzai style rakusu, no longer the traditional Korean style he had always used. The implication here is explicit. "I am an authorized Rinzai teacher."

Then in 2010, he adopted some Chinese Dharma name, and started calling himself 'Chanshi' out of the blue, using very ill-fitting cheap Taiwanese Kasa/Okesa, ie Buddha Robes. I mean, cmon people.

Later he simply started saying Sonsanim, I guess figuring now that he'd created enough supposed distance with all the other name changes no one would bother to notice he never received transmission in the first place. When you actually know that only Seung Sahn ever really went by Sonsanim and his heirs don't generally ever use that title (certainly not calling themselves that), it makes it even more grotesque.

He then created an online university, with web savvy Al Billings and Jiun Foster as his right hand man. The 4 year tuition was listed as something like $40,000 - later this was amended to say that everyone would receive a "scholarship" so the actual cost was a fraction of that, $2000 or something. Maybe you happen to have watched television at some point? Late at night, or on a Sunday morning? When they sell you some widget , and tell you the price is $99, "but if you order right now, the price is only 19.99", right? If something has no intrinsic value - and an unaccredited online degree clearly has zero - then one dollar is still a manufactured value. Maybe you start to see why Lynch has an interest in manufacturing his own value.

Lynch gives Foster fake transmission - then Foster and Billings LEAVE AND FORM THEIR OWN ONLINE UNIVERSITY AND ORDER!! You can't make this stuff up.

Lynch changes the name of his bullshit college, and manages to attract that motley bunch I referred to. These are all people who got caught up in some fantasy about robes and bowls and accoutrement and Asian Dharma names etc, some type of evangelical zeal for Buddhism (that will not last I guarantee you), and Lynch starts giving them titles and their own Zen centers INSTANTLY. Which is what drew them to a fake teacher in the first place - they follow this same pattern, all of them, from Foster on down.

Some 20 year old kid, who says he's a master of 20 martial arts, becomes "National Vice Abbott", and later more; other guys are made "Bodhisattva Monks", abbots and what not. Lynch needs to build a network of influence and money making on the only model he knows - Kwan Um. Seung Sahn built that thing up remarkably quickly, attracting some pretty capable folks quickly due to his charisma and ability (I know it has struggled more recently with him gone.) Lynch is doing this pale imitation at every turn, meanwhile just lying all along the way to try to get the freaking balloon to inflate. It's really actually incredibly pathetic.

So, somehow he got connected to these Vietnamese folks, and this older clearly nearly defunct organization. Clearly no one involved there has the first idea about the internet, or cared to do any research about Lynch at all. he said he was this that and the other, which is his specialty. They say ok, wow, a Dharma brother, we'll bring him in. He's enthusiastic and willing and this thing is dead on the vine anyway, so great. In the last few months he went from just saying he's on the board or whatever, to folding his obviously failed online college into theirs, gives himself a doctorate and one to his "barely legal" Vice Abbot, who gets to now add Dr. to his totally inflated credentials - just like his teacher, might I add. It is absolute ridiculous. And at some point, laws either have been or will be broken. Lynch clearly has ZERO regard for the truth or for reality. he will say or do whatever it takes to be seen as a Zen authority, and to make whatever admittedly pathetic living he's making having gone all in to the Zen fantasy as he has. It's clear money isn't his main motivation. Power is what he craves - admiration and influence. To be the "Great Zen Master." That's all he wants. His students want that too - and no doubt he's promising transmission, as he gave to Foster within months of simply declaring himself a zen master out of the blue. It is frankly all just disgusting.

jisahn108 wrote:Zen isn't pretending to be a phony baloney saint with 14 differnt ever changing asian names. It's about the truth. So square off with it already.

This is my understanding as well (emphasis added).

This thread has begun circling around itself, with minimal new insights or knowledge offered. If anyone objects to the claims made about Paul Lynch, James Foster, and Five Mountain Zen Order generally, in this thread, and can substantiate these objections with concrete evidence... please, by all means, bring that evidence forward. Similarly, if anyone can address the questions raised by JKhedrup earlier in this thread (quoted below) on the relationship between Five Mountain and the IBMC, I do hope such persons will speak up to help us all understand what is going on here.

Of course, silence speaks for itself too. It may be that such evidence does not exist. For the sake of an open and fair discussion, however, I continue to hold out the possibility that it may, and this is why I am choosing not to lock the thread yet.

JKhedrup wrote:Ven. Charama, Do you have any idea when Wongji Dharma will post the relevant information to his site?

Also, will that include confirmation that it is now Five Mountain Zen order who are upholding the lineage of Ven. Thich Thien An, (rather than IBMC). I honestly do hope that all the information can be posted and this matter will be cleared. Of course the way that the Five Mountains Order does things will still be up for debate- personally I object to the use of Vinaya monastic titles designated by Lord Buddha being used by people who continue to have romantic relationships. No Buddhist organization is immune to scrutiny, which I think is a good thing.

But if we know Wongji Dharma has the good faith of his teachers to give transmission, and Ven. Thich Thien An's students to continue that lineage, we can be confident Five Mountains has some solid foundations. It will go a long way to dispelling some of the misgivings that have been posted here.

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Longtime reader and lurker commenting here - as a layperson curious about Zen, who does not live near many resources and must do some internet due diligence from time to time before trying something or spending money on programs, I think that discussions like these are very useful. A year or so ago I got interested in the idea of an online seminary, but ultimately didn't feel solid about anything I found - for many of the reasons mentioned on DharmaWheel (in Five Mountain's case, almost "too cheap," very new and with what seemed to me too quick ordination, as noted here, and in other cases fractured English and gender and sexuality policies I could not accept, or otherwise just "too new" and unrooted). The people who don't live near abundant Zen resources and may be interested in distance or internet programs do benefit from questions and risks being presented before they commit time and money.

love that. That is exactly why I waded into this mess. We've all been on the outside looking in. And then maybe on the inside looking out, trying to get a fuller perspective on a sangha, a teacher; or even our own sangha or teacher. Let there be light.

jisahn108 wrote:...We're never going to get a straight answer out of these people. Can't everyone see that? They are showing you how they behave. Here. Evasion, puffery, false piety, passive aggressive attacks, dodges, feints, continually shifting names, allegiances. How can this in any way be considered a serious Buddhist organization? (Well, actually, it can't.)

Question: What can I possibly say to overcome such anger, accusations, and negative opinions?

Answer: Nothing. Not one single thing.

It has been asserted that Zen is about truth. While that is correct, what Jisahn108 wrote is not truth. It is opinion.

I don't know Jisahn108. I don't know what his accomplishments are, what his educational background is, what he does in life. I know nothing about him other than he doesn't like me, my Order, my teacher, my friends, our names, or the way we interpret Buddhism. That much is crystal clear.

For example:

jisahn108 wrote:Lynch changes the name of his bullshit college, and manages to attract that motley bunch I referred to.

I am part of that "bullshit college" and I am likely one of the "motley bunch."

I resent both statements. I take what I do very, very seriously. And I am hardly motley. (My wife would tell if I were.)

jisahn108 wrote:These are all people who got caught up in some fantasy about robes and bowls and accoutrement and Asian Dharma names etc, some type of evangelical zeal for Buddhism (that will not last I guarantee you), and Lynch starts giving them titles and their own Zen centers INSTANTLY. Which is what drew them to a fake teacher in the first place - they follow this same pattern, all of them, from Foster on down.

Nobody I know at Five Mountain Zen Order has any fantasy about "robes and bowls and accoutrement and Asian Dharma names." Not one single person. I know psychologists, teachers, anesthesiologist, nurses, marketing professionals, consultants, authors, salespeople, and acupuncturists in the Five Mountain Zen Order. None among them are caught up in any fantasy. About anything.

jisahn108 wrote:Some 20 year old kid, who says he's a master of 20 martial arts, becomes "National Vice Abbott", and later more; other guys are made "Bodhisattva Monks", abbots and what not.

I take offense to Jisahn108's denigration of our Abbot.

I know that "20-year-old-kid" (Wanji Dharma or Thích Đức Tâm). I know him well. He possesses what appears to be a photographic memory. He is a walking Sutra, able to quote, at length, passages from a wide variety of Buddhist texts. On top of that, he has a tremendous heart for people. He is an extremely accomplished student of Zen, a fantastic teacher, and a serious and committed Abbot (not Vice Abbot as Jisahn108 stated). I consider it an honor to know Wanji Dharma.

I hold the title of Bodhisattva Monk. But my title could change tomorrow to Bodhisattva Priest. Or janitor, for all I care. What does the title matter? Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Do not attach to anything. Do not make anything.

jisahn108 wrote:Lynch needs to build a network of influence and money making on the only model he knows - Kwan Um. Seung Sahn built that thing up remarkably quickly, attracting some pretty capable folks quickly due to his charisma and ability (I know it has struggled more recently with him gone.) Lynch is doing this pale imitation at every turn, meanwhile just lying all along the way to try to get the freaking balloon to inflate. It's really actually incredibly pathetic.

Once again, this is opinion. Not facts. Not truth.

As I've mentioned before, the Five Mountain Zen Order is not set up to be a "money-making" venture. We're all freakin' poor, dude! We volunteer our time. No one pays me a dime. The other teachers are not raking it in, either. They struggle, just as everyone does. Wonji Dharma has taught me from Day One that this isn't about money. Or prestige. Or notoriety of any kind. It's about helping people.

I have been taught to serve others, without financial remuneration or even thanks. That's what the Five Mountain Zen Order is all about. I am truly sorry if you don't believe that. But it's true.

jisahn108 wrote:So, somehow he got connected to these Vietnamese folks, and this older clearly nearly defunct organization. Clearly no one involved there has the first idea about the internet, or cared to do any research about Lynch at all. he said he was this that and the other, which is his specialty. They say ok, wow, a Dharma brother, we'll bring him in. He's enthusiastic and willing and this thing is dead on the vine anyway, so great. In the last few months he went from just saying he's on the board or whatever, to folding his obviously failed online college into theirs, gives himself a doctorate and one to his "barely legal" Vice Abbot, who gets to now add Dr. to his totally inflated credentials - just like his teacher, might I add. It is absolute ridiculous. And at some point, laws either have been or will be broken. Lynch clearly has ZERO regard for the truth or for reality. he will say or do whatever it takes to be seen as a Zen authority, and to make whatever admittedly pathetic living he's making having gone all in to the Zen fantasy as he has. It's clear money isn't his main motivation. Power is what he craves - admiration and influence. To be the "Great Zen Master." That's all he wants. His students want that too - and no doubt he's promising transmission, as he gave to Foster within months of simply declaring himself a zen master out of the blue. It is frankly all just disgusting.

How can you make all those assertions without knowing any of us? I can't even begin to fathom the sheer size of the cojones it takes to make broad-stroke assertions like that. Not only is Jisahn108 besmirching sincere, dedicated people like Dr. Chitta Dharma and Dr. Karuna Dharma and what he calls their "clearly nearly defunct...dead-on-the-vine" educational efforts, he's making the libelous claim that "laws either have been or will be broken" by Paul Lynch and others in the Five Mountain Zen Order, and that "Lynch clearly has ZERO regard for the truth or for reality."

Dharma friends, let me ask you something. Why is what Jisahn108 wrote considered "truth" while what I have been writing is not?

NOTE:

1. As I wrote, we will post the document from Ven. Dr. Chitta Dharma and Ven. Dr. Karuna Dharma that transferred the Buddhist Studies Institute - Los Angeles to our Abbot and the Five Mountain Zen Order. It will be available on our web site within a couple of weeks.

2. As I wrote, Paul Wonji Dharma Lynch will post information about his authority to teach on his own web site. When, I don't know. But he told me he would. So it will be done.

3. If any other opinion or assertion here requires follow up on a Five Mountain Zen Order site, we'll do so. If not, we won't.

Silence does not have to mean lacking "evidence" or "facts" or "truth." Sometimes, it can mean taking a high road, not speaking ill of anyone, wanting to spend time and energy serving others rather than getting involved with unquenchable controversies.

My offer stands: If you'd like to get to know me and others in the Five Mountain Zen Order, please feel free to make yourself at home on my Facebook page. Or strike up an e-mail correspondence. I may have time for a Skype chat, too.

For what it's worth, I'll be around. But I've said all I care to in this thread.

Thank you, everyone, for your time reading this.

Many Bows, Charama

"If you want to attain your true nature, you must have Great Faith, Great Courage, and Great Question. It is like a three-legged stool...With these supporting your practice, you can attain your true self. You can attain universal substance, and attain your correct way, and truth, and make your life correct. Then you can help all sentient beings get out of suffering. That is our job."

I can see where you are coming from, but I think a lot of people’s upset with the way your group presents itself could be addressed by the design of your website.

Why not just put it right out there on your web site very directly? Just say that your organization does not believe in the traditional conventions of the Buddhist traditions of Zen or Chan, either the decades long teacher training, or the traditional titles of teachers, the monastic system, the transmission system, and so on… and so you are making up your own un-related independent center with it’s own internal system of credentialing. Zen in the U.S. seems to attract some rebellious anti-establishment people; they’ll probably eat that all up.

But if you make website using all kinds of exalted or monastic traditional titles from various traditional Zen systems, without explanation that you are doing something completely different, it’s right for people to hold you guys to the traditional standards. Don’t you agree?

As an example: an actual bodhisattva (on the first bodhisattva bhumi) has actual realization of emptiness (not intellectual knowledge or a fleeting meditation experience) and can manifest 100 different bodies for the benefit of beings. In other words, they can exhibit miracles. If that is not what you mean, then your website should explain what the Bodhisattva title means to you.

As another example, see wiki on the title “Venerable.”“In Buddhism, the Western style of Venerable (also abbreviated as Ven.) is entitled to ordained Buddhist monks and nuns and also to novices (shramaneras). The title of Master may be followed for senior members of the Sangha. Venerable, along with ""Reverend"" (Rev.) is used as a western alternative to Maha Thera in the Theravada branch and Shì (釋, as in "Sakya") in Chinese Mahayana branch.[1]”

After having waded through this thread as outsider, that is what occurs to me. Unless you make a clear break and distinguish yourself from tradition, there will be a lot of obstacles for you. It’s true that, no matter what, you will always receive criticism from traditionalists, but they won’t be able to claim you are dishonest if you are more clear on your website.

I know that "20-year-old-kid" (Wanji Dharma or Thích Đức Tâm). I know him well. He possesses what appears to be a photographic memory. He is a walking Sutra, able to quote, at length, passages from a wide variety of Buddhist texts. On top of that, he has a tremendous heart for people. He is an extremely accomplished student of Zen, a fantastic teacher, and a serious and committed Abbot

Just my opinion here. He sounds like a perfect person to invest in for the future. I am sure if he is young with such a photographic memory he could be send for training in a traditional Zen or Chan monastery in the East. He would be able to learn a canonical language and traditional monastic discipline. Investing in such a person would create a fantastic resource through which your order could benefit sentient beings.

Someone with deep training in dharma and precepts would truly be able to live up to the title "National Abbot". I realize that as we get older it is more difficult to adjust to different environments and things (I even see a huge difference between me at 23 when I first went to Sera and now at 32 in terms of my adaptability), but your order has a talented young person with great intelligence. Imagine how much more capable and inspiring he would be with full time residential training. Imagine if he could teach at the Scholastic insitutions you are developing with all that experience and training?

I am completely convinced that full time training, study and retreat is what helps to really develop the most extraordinary teachers. While it is great to have people in the world that the public can relate to, someone with the title national abbot should be a lineage holder in the truest sense- and that can only happen through being able to develop oneself full time in a traditional context. Of course this cannot be a requirement for every teacher or practitioner- and shoudldn't be. But for a national abbot, it ought to.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

Again, Charama's arguments are "we are swell people. Trust me. That jishan guy is obviously just mean, so why bother to answer his questions."

He doesn't address a single point I have now made a nauseating number of times.

Also, you see a lot of the ways in which Zen teaching gets abused to actually justify delusion - a total disconnect from reality. "It's all relative. Only "hit the floor" is real. Therefore any truth but my truth doesn't matter." Forget facts. If I say it's so, no one can tell me different. Our little club plays by its own rules. We are going to use all the names and accoutrement of Zen and Buddhism in order to seem official in order to attract dues paying club members to boost our own morale and bottom line, but when questioned by knowledgeable people we'll just say none of it really matters. "We are nice people! That's all that counts." Unbelievable. If I'd ever thought that was Zen, I never would have set foot in a temple. Luckily, it's not.

And by the way, it is now well established there is no such thing as a "photographic memory."http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2006/04/kaavya_syndrome.html And if there were, it would have no bearing on someone's morality or other forms of intelligence. The kid is egomaniacal by definition to claim to be a master of 20 martial arts, and utterly shameless to call himself Dr. because his fake teacher gave him a fake degree. And how many name changes has he undergone in the last 12 months? Enthusiasm and evangelical zeal are not signs of awakening. In fact, they often indicate pathology. I think the whole Five Mountain enterprise is a living test case of that.

You guys don't fare very well on a "is this a cult?" check list. You might want to take a test yourself.

Other posters here diplomatically bring up other points. But I don't need to tippy toe around anyone who says no one in his so-called sangha suffers from any projections, delusions, or inflation, when such a statement itself insures such things are in effect. As they are in any human social group.

You can keep singing your song, but you aren't helping your case here much. Perhaps it just feels good to further line your own psychological nest though. Good luck with that.

Looks like Jisahn, who has been on the attack for some unknown reason, is the one who lacks authority here. We know nothing about this Cyber Bully. Who is he to accuse someone else of being a fraud. For all we know, he sits in his mother's basement, unemployed, hurling accusations and saying that he is saving the world! From the looks of it, he is Bipolar and is cycling up at this point. Until you reveal who you are, you are a nobody. And, no, I am not Paul Lynch. Take your Lithium and stop trolling. Until you reveal who you are and by what authority you attack, you are just a nobody in mommy's basement.

deweyboy wrote:Looks like Jisahn, who has been on the attack for some unknown reason, is the one who lacks authority here. We know nothing about this Cyber Bully. Who is he to accuse someone else of being a fraud. For all we know, he sits in his mother's basement, unemployed, hurling accusations and saying that he is saving the world! From the looks of it, he is Bipolar and is cycling up at this point. Until you reveal who you are, you are a nobody. And, no, I am not Paul Lynch. Take your Lithium and stop trolling. Until you reveal who you are and by what authority you attack, you are just a nobody in mommy's basement.

Hey, I'm an unemployed person living off my (departed) mommy's money. We're not all bad.

deweyboy wrote:Looks like Jisahn, who has been on the attack for some unknown reason, is the one who lacks authority here. We know nothing about this Cyber Bully. Who is he to accuse someone else of being a fraud. For all we know, he sits in his mother's basement, unemployed, hurling accusations and saying that he is saving the world! From the looks of it, he is Bipolar and is cycling up at this point. Until you reveal who you are, you are a nobody. And, no, I am not Paul Lynch. Take your Lithium and stop trolling. Until you reveal who you are and by what authority you attack, you are just a nobody in mommy's basement.

^^^And that's what an ad hominem looks like.^^^ Rather than directly engaging with your opponent's claims and evidence, you attack his or her person.

Ad hominem: This is an attack on the character of a person rather than her/his opinions or arguments. Example:

Green Peace's strategies aren't effective because they are all dirty, lazy hippies.

In this example, the author doesn't even name particular strategies Green Peace has suggested, much less evaluate those strategies on their merits. Instead, the author attacks the characters of the individuals in the group.

Look, jisahn's tone is certainly unpleasant, but at least he or she (you never know on the infernet) has offered some material evidence in support of the claims he or she has made. Can you do the same?

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This isn't very complicated. When I applied for my current job, my resume' said I had a degree from such and such a school. Before I was officially hired, all this was verified. My job wasn't doing anything wrong by checking on this and it would have been absurd for me to deflect providing this information in the way that's happening here.

Simple questions are being asked; simple answers should be provided. Everyone I've encountered in this order has been a nice person and has seemed very genuine. The only time I've seen things get weird is when this issue is brought up.

Bodhidharma taught his monks martial arts to deal with Highway men. Cyberbullies and bullies in general need to be confronted. I am an unaffiliated Buddhist. I used to be Soto Zen. I came across this thread and recognized a bully. This guy's mouth is a weapon. He is a bully. He could be civil and kind, but he is not. I reserve my right to stand up to bullies for the good of the world.

I know that "20-year-old-kid" (Wanji Dharma or Thích Đức Tâm). I know him well. He possesses what appears to be a photographic memory. He is a walking Sutra, able to quote, at length, passages from a wide variety of Buddhist texts. On top of that, he has a tremendous heart for people. He is an extremely accomplished student of Zen, a fantastic teacher, and a serious and committed Abbot (not Vice Abbot as Jisahn108 stated). I consider it an honor to know Wanji Dharma.

Many Bows, Charama

I apologize for wading back into this as a layperson, but I'm also an educator who had to spend a lot of time in the system to get degreed, obtain another type of license, etc.. A photographic memory is NOT necessarily understanding. I don't know anything about the level of understanding of your National Abbot (or of any graduate of the other online seminaries, which, at least by their sample materials, seem rather thin), but this is not going to be a good credibility argument for you.

Bodhidharma taught his monks martial arts to deal with Highway men. Cyberbullies and bullies in general need to be confronted. I am an unaffiliated Buddhist. I used to be Soto Zen. I came across this thread and recognized a bully. This guy's mouth is a weapon. He is a bully. He could be civil and kind, but he is not. I reserve my right to stand up to bullies for the good of the world.

Dear Paul Lynch, hero to the world- address the issues. Still waiting...Thanks.

(Translation of doughyboy's statement: "Uh, I'm not Paul Lynch, uh, I'm...unaffiliated, yeah, that's it. Wait that's not enough...I was Soto before, see, cuz that's the only thing I've, I mean Paul Lynch, has never claimed to be a master of, so it couldn't be Paul Lynch, totally not Paul Lynch the only thing he isn't a totally bona fide titled transmitted head honcho of in fact which is not convenient at all, and uh, that's how I'm an expert...and uh, yeah, I'm like Bodhidharma fighting uh..."Highway men" yeah, that's right, poetic like, nice, I'm a poet see...but not Paul lynch who's a really great poet, I'm a different poet...uh...I'm a hero, see! This guy's a bully cuz he asks questions I don't like, I mean I don't care about his questions, and uh, I was just wandering around on the internet, and uh, minding my own business, uh, no interest at all in Paul Lynch, nope, never heard of him, and uh, yeah I just could tell this guy was a bully cuz of his tone see, and those poor nice people at Five Mountain, well uh, they clearly just need me, a stranger! Not Paul Lynch! Nope - a total stranger! To take this guy down with my insults from 1999, and call him crazy, uh, who needs meds, and uh, I don't know anything about meds personally cuz I've never taken meds nope, all's well with me, I don't know anything about bipolar disorder, uh, myself, I just read things uh, I don't have it or anything, my teacher didn't tell me to stop teaching and get help for it, uh, and uh, ignore his questions see, uh, cuz he's mean, his words are mean, uh, his words asking those questions you shouldn't PAY ANY ATTENTION TO, NOPE, LOOK OVER HERE! This way, not at those questions, uh, which are mean, I mean that guy is, what questions?")

This is all so silly. Isn't it really about finding wisdom. Look at the Roman Catholic Church. A construct of Emperor Constantine. When that guy Siddatha Gautama was doing his practice, people wanted to kill him. All these titles and grown men running around in red dresses, both Buddhist and Catholic. What is that all about? These are just man made constructs. In the end, there will not be Buddhism, but there will always be the Way. I have broken my Precepts this afternoon. I will go make Sange tomorrow morning as the sun rises in my meditation room. I will seek wisdom. I am probably much older than any of you suspect. No guarantees of longevity at his point; its just day to day. I was raised in Puerto Rico. I was the only white kid in class and the class punching bag. Bullies bring back my PTSD. I am going to say good bye. Joseph

Communication of these fora can get quite harsh and I hope you don't break your vows over careless words here any more, Joseph.

People do get worked up and overdo it and it's good to pause take stock and sometimes just step away from it. I think this thread has already said enough and people are repeating themselves. Everyone can make up their own minds from the stuff presented here if they ar interested in this Order.

This would all be so simple if anyone would actually address the questions. Instead, it's games and fictions - which is what Paul Lynch does, after all. And if you'd read as many Paul Lynch cut downs and defenses as I have, tracking him online, you'd know his signature style as well as I do.

There's no reason to think deweyboy is Paul Lynch, or to engage in name-calling. (even if he may write as Lynch does)

Dan74 wrote:People do get worked up and overdo it and it's good to pause take stock and sometimes just step away from it. I think this thread has already said enough and people are repeating themselves. Everyone can make up their own minds from the stuff presented here if they ar interested in this Order.

... and is that Louis Althusser in your avatar? well played, sir

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