McCain staffer slams Dungeons and Dragons players

Jimmy sez, "Michael Goldfarb of the John McCain campaign oddly disses gamers in his post yesterday on the John McCain blog."

It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.

Basically, people on the web brought McCain’s religious pandering to a halt by revealing that it was probably all made up, so he struck back by calling names as if he were in the 6th grade.
Yeah, this guy would make a great President.

Actually, I think this is a potshot aimed primarily at bloggers (pretty much the only people writing about the “issue” in question), and that the gaming bit was just added as a little extra nerd-baggage that dovetails smoothly with the traditional “working from mom’s basement” line that is trotted out against both groups. This isn’t necessarily any better, mind you, since it illustrates the persistent belief that merely associating someone with D&D counts as a slam. In other words gamers weren’t being targeted by this particular quote, they had already been dismissed as ludicrous/pathetic before the statement had been made.

As a military vet that loves RPGs, I find this comment offensive in the extreme. Of course, I find McCain and Obama offensive as well. Too bad Ron Paul isn’t going to make it. But a vote for him won’t make my conscience pack up and leave either.

McCain must be sitting on that card from the Deck of Many Things that basically amounts to a Wish-type one-off. You know, the one that lets you re-do one critical moment in the past? He’ll run the election, wait a few years, then re-do everything from the point where he could win. And we’ll never any of us be aware of the jump in continuity.

No, you guys got it all wrong. He’s not dissing D&D players all together, just the pro-Obama ones. These are your typical 4e embracing pro “change” players. I am a D&D player pro-McCain, a DM in fact, and the most change I will allow in my campaign is Unearthed Arcana from 1988. I’ve been running this really cool campaign for about 5 years called “Endless Police Action on the Borderlands”. It’s a real hit with us pro-McCain gamers. I’m gonna start a concurrent group on a campaign path we call “Return to the Temple of Elemental Cold War Evil”. I think that’s gonna be a hit with the pro-McCain crowd too.

Thomas Schaller, writing in the War Room section of Salon.com, puts a “I was a POW, so I have immunity from all criticism” twist on the statement:

Subject, verb, POW

It is increasingly clear that John McCain and his campaign view his prisoner-of-war status as an unlimited immunity card. We have already heard a spokeswoman, while expressing outrage that anyone might imply that McCain broke the “cone of silence” debate rules Saturday, adding, midsentence, that McCain was a prisoner of war.

And now his campaign, complete with an insult about how Barack Obama blog supporters are a bunch of “Dungeons and Dragons” types, has issued a statement that, you guessed it, once again plays the POW card while scoffing at — but not quite denying — the McCain story of how one of his Vietnamese captors apparently duplicated an act of kindness that one of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s captors did in Russia. Get a load of this:

It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman’s memory of war from the comfort of mom’s basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.

Frank Nitti-style, McCain is going to flash his get-of-out-trouble-free POW card every time anybody challenges anything he says. Obama had better have an answer for this, and he would be wise to pick a vice-presidential nominee to raise some objections to McCain’s annoying habit. Given Joe Biden’s famous “subject-verb-9/11″ barb about Rudy Giuliani, the Delaware senator is looking better and better.

“If my comments caused any harm or hurt to the hard working Americans who play Dungeons & Dragons, I apologize. This campaign is committed to increasing the strength, constitution, dexterity, intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores of every American. ”
–Michael Goldfarb

I assume it’s authentic, though it seems a little to amusing to actually be from the McCain campaign.

How telling that the “Truth. Honor. McCain” blog doesn’t allow comments. Do any of his handlers have a clue how badly he’s botched the whole 21st technology thing?

I’m pretty sure they don’t. Back at the beginning of July, I was startled to find that McCain’s official campaign site was still soliciting paid comment spam, weeks after they’d announced the program and gotten practically unanimous negative reactions to it. What prompted me to write about it, though, was that not only was the offending page still up, but it was still unfinished.

I checked it again today. The page is still there, it’s still soliciting comment spam, and it’s still unfinished! The only difference I can see is one of the program’s spoon-fed talking point that previously said “The Issue: Time for Solutions” now says “The Issue: Jobs for America.”

I pulled a search string out of the new talking point (millions of good American jobs, ensure our nation’s energy security), ran it through Google, and learned two amusing things. One is that that search string is indeed turning up around the web — for instance, in forums, on a free-for-all document-sharing site, and in someone’s op-ed letter. Unfortunately, none of these sites are eligible for McCain Online Action Center points.

The other amusing thing is that sites that picked up on the story more than a month after my own writeup included SlashDot, Ezra Klein in The American Prospect, Comedy Central’s Indecision 2008, Kevin Drum’s Political Animal, and InterTube Guy on Daily Kos. Whoopee! (When you’re a very minor political blogger, you have to get your jollies where you find them.)

This is the same Michael Goldfarb who is an editor for Weekly Standard (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Michael_Goldfarb), I’m pretty sure. It isn’t the D&D comment that pisses me off, it’s the fact that most of these conservative/neo-conservatives who go on and on about military might have never, ever worn a uniform in their collective, pathetic lives (I have, even though my Army career was cut short due to an injury). And then they have the unmitigated gall to make such statements. Pigs.

Someone rolled a natural 1 on his diplomacy check. Though the apology is humorous, the hateful scorn shown in the original post is not going to just disappear. My particular D&D group includes a few business owners and an elementary school principal, none of whom live in their mother’s basement. Actually, one of them is an extremely right-wing Republican who is going to vote for McCain…wonder what he will make of this remark?

It’s the classic situation where a 1st level blogger attacks high level multi-classed gamer/Americans. Whether you are for McCain, Obama, or Cthulhu, tis a bad choice of foes. Doesn’t he know that most gamers get “Dice Smite” as a feat?

McCain’s people should really check their facts before they spout off. Does John McCain have no idea how many GIs play D&D? Wizards of the Coast (the makers of D&D) has sent care packages to the troops on many many occasions, providing free gaming supplies in support of our men and women serving the country overseas to help them decompress after hours.

Perhaps all of these D&D playing troops should vote for Obama from their bombed out basements in Iraq, since John McCain obviously has no respect for their hobby of choice.

A cheap shot from McCain, and pretty ironic since he’s railing against Obama’s lack of military knowledge. McCain should spend some time finding out more about today’s army and less time tossing rhetoric around.

Error404: I keep saying that, but no one believes me. I think it was Charlie Stross who said that America is dominated by two parties, one conservative and pro-business, and one VERY conservative and VERY pro-business.

Yeah, well all I can say about this is that I was working in a bar one night when the Obama campaigners came out. They filled the place up, drank lots of water and didn’t leave tips. Just like the guys that come in to play Magic. F’n aggravating.. “um.. may I have a half pint of Stella and 4 waters?”

If I owned the place I’d have thrown them out. Of course, this was after I voted for the guy.

This offends the living shit out of me. As a veteran AND a person that played D&D, I felt it was my duty to write him a nastygram, which I did. Even though I’m sure he won’t understand many of the large words, I hope he understands the general feel that he’s a douche bag that brings shame to everyone around him.

What…the…hell? Even though I’m starting a “old-is-new” 1st edition AD&D campaign this weekend (maybe we’ll go down to the basement, even!), I’m not offended so much as bemused. What an odd attempt at an insult. *shrug* What’s this guy got against gamers, anyway? Did a bunch beat him up when he was a kid or something?

There’s a lot of hate being directed towards our troops all around. And these are the last people on earth who deserve it. It’s a good idea when it comes to things like “war” to listen to those that have been there. Arm chair quarterbacking and pretending to be an expert is exactly what forum trolls, and gamers are renowned for. So ignoring being directly critical of McCain the man has a point.

There are a lot of damned near extremist views held by gamers. I mean I know that sounds like a load of WMDs… but I used to be semi-pro in UT2004… and some of the political opinions loudly voiced by folks in that community were well beyond absurd and obscene (and I don’t mean goatse). It would be nice if media and people in general wouldn’t just up and accept the authoritative opinions of random people on the internet, and instead went to primary sources for information. Such as the veterans of such wars as Iraq.

Additionally, regardless of the war, there’s not excuse for not cutting some slack to the people who have served. That’s a tremendous sacrifice and it’s not something they are justly compensated for. We all know it.

So in general… yeah it’s political posturing, and McCain is still crazy as all hell… but in this specific case… he does have a valid point IMHO.

“but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.”

Let’s put in another level of detail here:

but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who went overseas to attack and bomb a country that never attacked the US and then launched a nostalgia war so that a new generation could experience the same pleasure.

OR

but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who were tortured by the Vietcong and then decided to start torturing anyone captured overseas and suspected of anti-American activities.

If you fault McCain because of his age, you are just as intellectually flaccid as someone who faults
Hilary’s sex, or Obama’s race.

Actually, no.

See, it’s not his physical age so much as it is his mindset. He presents himself in the most crotchety way possible. Just look at his advertisements; Shaking his fist at celebrities, talking about the 60’s. Now one of his spokes-critters is out there nerd-baiting a 30 year old game.

He’s a man facing backwards, and nothing makes you look less vital, less lively, less…young, than dwelling on the past.

“but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who were tortured…”

I respect some things about McCain, but that doesn’t mean I buy into his vision of or for America. He is a product of his generation and as such is most likely limited by some very hard-to-change mindsets. His pro-life nut-talk should make people listen closely. So, white, rich, America, whose daughter gets to have a back-alley abortion after the Supremes go extra neo-con? So, should we go to war with China to save all those murdered fetuses? Doesn’t good ol’fashioned-family-values America go to war to stop genocide? If America becomes crazy pro-life legislated, the government will have to judge all other governments that allow abortion to be guilty of genocide. The Government won’t allow ust to travel to these places. We’ll be trapped like lemmings. Trapped I say!

John McCain’s military experience give him fewer points with me than John Kerry’s did. My Oregon neighbor, Jim Rassman, is the Green Beret captain that Kerry fished out of the river while under fire; and Jim gives a pretty convincing assessment of JK’s character, one that it would be hard to disbelieve; but disbelieve it millions of Americans did, after those evil ”swiftboat” motherfuckers got through with him. What they’re going to do with Obama, you can rest assured, will make the character assassination of John Kerry look like high praise.

Obama has an outside chance of winning, but only if he selects Wes Clark as his VP. Clark can laugh at McCain and ridicule his pretensions and foreign policy ignorance. I know that the MSM lineup of pundits eager to have McCain’s baby is a long one, but there will be far fewer after Clark works him over.

I’m an American veteran with boots on the ground experience, and I know the real thing when I see it. Although I respect McCain’s guts as a POW, it says nothing of his leadership abilities; I would soldier under Wes Clark and run like hell from John McCain.

Obama is doomed without Clark; with him there’s at least a fighting chance.

The McCain campaign keeps reminding us that he was a POW. What it causes me to remember is that American pilots shot down 11 Vietnamese for every American pilot shot down. It doesn’t speak well for McCain’s competence as a pilot that he was shot down. And he seems to have carried on the rest of his life at about the same level.

I don’t think McCain wants to open up this can of worms – I’d bet he wishes it would all go away!

It appears that the “cross in the sand” story only showed up in 1999 when he was running for president against GWB. Before that and in his book, he made reference to the Xmas day conversation he had with a guard with no mention of a cross. Wouldn’t the cross in the sand story be included in the book if it happened?

This isn’t a big story unless the McCain wants to make out like we are all a bunch of idiots for not believing him…..because there are enough people out there that will rip his story to shreds!

Look, this comment was made by a stupid staffer, not by John McCain. I know that on a personal level, I often have a different opinion than that of my employer, but people don’t get mad at my employer because of it.

#71: “There’s a lot of hate being directed towards our troops all around.”

Hold on there cowboy… Criticism of the administration and those parroting the company line (even if they wear the uniform) is not “hate being directed towards our troops..” I think it is correct to say the disgust is aimed towards the carpenter, not the hammer.

#93- I agree with you that it’s unfair of anyone to attribute these specific words to McCain. But they are consistent with McCain’s attitude towards, well, the modern technological world.

#94- Nice to see you in comments other than on Eric Zorn’s blog! Always enjoy your posts there, and your blog. Could you clarify what “Save versus McCain” means? I’m probably an idiot for not understanding it, but…

missplace, if you were HIRED to speak ON BEHALF of your company, then made a staement like that on the company blog, it is as though the company were speaking. unless soon thereafter the company fired you and made a loud public “we so sorry”, and then tried to mollify the d&d’ers with free 12 sided dice or something( maybe some free tiregauges!). goldfarb speaks for mcpain. that’s his job. your argument doesn’t hold wawa.

@#51
“It’s the classic situation where a 1st level blogger attacks high level multi-classed gamer/Americans. Whether you are for McCain, Obama, or Cthulhu, tis a bad choice of foes. Doesn’t he know that most gamers get “Dice Smite” as a feat?”

What? Wouldn’t McCain be happy to get the vote of the forty-something, Republican-leaning, proud D&D playing parents? They are not that rare, after all. Today’s teenagers can even be third generation D&D players!

And what about all the historical reenactment crowd, especially the Confederates fans? Or the board game generals to try to get Lee to win this time?

Amazed that no one has quipped “I’m a tenth level Vice-President!” yet…
What other ones can I pull out?
Nah I’ve run out for now. Anyone feel up to making up a set of character sheets for the candidates?

Anyway, as a British person who doesn’t directly benefit or lose out from whoever is elected it’s not really my place. My only observation is that, in my mind, America’s international reputation cannot withstand another Republican term carrying on the Bush family agenda on foreign shores and against a majority of innocent civilians. From what I heard growing up in the Nineties, we were just recovering from the end the Cold War and I remember watching Bill Clinton on TV as a friendly, diplomatic and charismatic man who funded education and other worthwhile causes. Then a glassy eyed, slow brained man with as much command of words as a university student after the exams have finished took the helm.
Now I read about his terrible speeches, draconian security personnel at airports and how many British soldiers were killed this week in Iraq…

When I was a kid I was always told of the wonderful ideals that America was built on. Freedom, justice and acceptance. I learned right and wrong from American made super-heroes like Spiderman and Batman. Please don’t let the ideal of the Patriot doing what is right for the people, rather than the politician disappear.

Way to go Mr. Goldfarb! You have helped alienate an entire demographic from your candidates message! Something that might have taken Barack Obama millions of dollars in advertising to do, you did in a few short sentences. As a D&D player of 15 years, and an active voter, you have certainly made it clear to me where your candidate stands on the issues I’m most concerned with. Yessir, with that crack about D&D players commenting from their parents basements? Oh wow. You showed us, mister! That is certainly original.

Except, it’s not. And it’s not true. You’ve obviously never attended any kind of gaming convention, or you would realize the majority of the people there are middle class adults who own their own basements, work their own jobs, and, Oh Yes! They VOTE! And they are raising the next generation of voters, too. From the looks of things, if you keep writing the way you do, you’d better hope these kids rebel and become Republicans when they grow up: because that’s the only way you’ll end up seeing the inside of the White House for a long time to come.

LORISNJ@93: Not with the media censoring McCain’s egregious mistakes like CBS did recently, and the rest of the “Ministry of Truth” following suit. Swift-boating seems to only work against the Dems, while the real criminals deeds get glossed over. Remember what got Dan Rather to leave See-BS?

#73: There’s a lot of hate being directed towards our troops all around.

Really? By Americans? Where?

On the contrary, I’ve seen virtually no criticism of “our troops” in this country during the past 7 years.

Individual servicemembers involved in crimes and abuses have been criticized — and rightly so. But general “hate” toward “our troops”? The idea that there’s a huge contingent of “troop-haters” in this country is a right-wing media myth.

the POW-pass card was brought out by Hannity the other day for McCain’s cheating on his wife! even though he was at least 4 years outta incarceration.

the way the right geared up on Kerry’s military duty was truly a thing of evil beauty to watch. I spent a lot of time on those right wing message boards during this time, and it was massaged in. At first there were a lot of ex-military guys who were p.o.-ed that the anger mob was questioning his service. They didn’t like his politics, but felt you had to respect his service. Slowly, but surely, the big dogs of the board, the super-right attack-leaders, got the sheep in line, and stayed on message — Kerry was a hippie over there on holiday.

I never thought they would vilify to the extent they did the mom who lost her son in Iraq, but they did. I didn’t think they would turn on Pat Tillman’s family, but they did. Heaven help you if you draw the lottery card of having to say something they don’t want to hear … they can demonize ANYONE. ANYONE. they know that it takes a while sometimes, that telling you to strangle your puppy won’t make it happen right away. just stay on message, and come up with lots of spurious evidence …

CinHil, I would agree with you…if you swapped the names of the two candidates. And I don’t see any reason we can’t blame him for this. People are blaming Obama for Rev. Wright, after all. Has McCain denounced this staffer and severed all ties with him? By the standards of what his campaign has been saying about Obama, that’s what’s required for him not to be held responsible for this bozo.

In fact, if the Dems were as dirty as the Rethuglicans, they’d be recruiting a group of “POW Camp Survivors for Truth” to claim that McCain collaborated with the VC for better treatment, ratted out the other prisoners’ escape plans, or even ate some of them.

But the good guys don’t play that way, and our side doesn’t have a scumbag like T. Boone Pickins to foot the bill.

I’m sure that all the folks saying that this was “just a blogger” and therefore not McCain’s responsibility were as vigorously defending Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwan when the Edwards campaign started getting flak for things they’d written on non-campaign blogs.

Right?

Sure, some gamers live in their parents’ basements; is that better or worse than living in your rich second wife’s multiple houses?

As an avid D&D player over the age of 60 and a political atheist, I find the statement merely stupid. As a Viet Nam vet, I find Mr. McCain to have been a poor Naval officer. By his votes against care for veterans of Iraq, I find he is a poor man. Respect in this case need not be earned, but it can be lost. Mr. McCain has lost mine.

ABarkett – Yes we’re serious, and no it’s not totally reasonable. He was insulting people who play D&D and bloggers by saying we all live in our mother’s basement. How is that at all reasonable?

We say he’s an idiot and doesn’t know what he’s talking about only when it comes to policies we disagree with and his approach to interacting with anyone under the age of 60. No one ever EVER said he didn’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to war. We all respect his service, but it doesn’t get him a free pass, and neither does being held as a POW. That was an awful thing, and no one deserves to go through that, but it doesn’t mean he’ll be a good president, and it doesn’t mean he can’t make up stories (whether intentional or not, and it’s impossible to prove if it’s true or not).

Inane arrogant comments? Have you read them? Many current and past service people have commented that it’s insulting. I think maybe they know what they’re talking about.

I wish there was a tag of some sort so we know the reason for disemvowelled posts, some of these (hard to read through the disemvowelling) somewhat appear to just be for being pro McCain. I don’t like McCain at all (or Obama) but it makes the discussion hard to follow.

Jake0748 @139: I know that wasn’t your line; that’s why there’s two sets of quotemarks on it. I see now that that wasn’t sufficient. Sorry about that. I was just addressing the question to you.

Error404 @146, I know you feel strongly about this, but fewer one-sentence paragraphs and all-caps words would not diminish your message.

Rebdav @148: Malarkey, sez I; if you can’t read the disemvowelled comments, you have no idea whether they were zapped “just for being pro McCain.” I resent the allegation, and wouldn’t mind a bit if you backed down on it. Besides, you’ve been around here long enough to know that by far the biggest reason people get disemvowelled is for their manners, not their opinions.

The reason: Barkett was a drive-by asterisk. He was self-indulgent, rude, and condescending; he made remarks that were offensive to everyone here who has military experience; and he didn’t read the thread before posting his comment.

Ostensibly 149: That’s the order I remember from the real old D&D days, when the only alignments were Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic, and they didn’t have Good or Evil or any hardback books at all. My box set still said Greyhawk on the front. I since gave it to a poorer friend who sold it on Ebay for beaucoup bux.

Of course, even remembering this stuff dates us. But at my age, nothing else will, so what the heck! *casts Banish Kids From Lawn spell*

David 152: No, Charisma was last. I remember that, because I rolled a pretty mediocre character once, and then rolled a 17 for Charisma. (No, not a Paladin, he was Chaotic Good. Weird thing our GM made up called an Aldiric that did divine power possession. Killed a Nazgûl that way once. The body drain nearly killed me though, because my Chaotic Good patron (or should that be matron?) goddess decided to STOMP it to death, which took a long, long time…and at 2 hit points per second of possession, I was pretty messed up.)

Teresa 153: I knew it! You save the vowels in case you need them! Hey, you could donate them in the Kaukasos…some of the languages there only have one (or none, depending on how you analyze them).

This comment has to come from someone who hasn’t actually been on a military base in the past 25 years. Role-playing games relieve stress, sharpen skills (including tactics and team-building), and improve morale, which is why soldiers in the field, even in forward positions, play games in their downtime. Once you’ve defeated an army of monsters and saved a kingdom, dealing with a few snipers or IEDs is a picnic. I believe that West Point has an annual gaming convention, and I think the other military academies have similar events. Role-playing is an essential tool in strategic threat analysis.

(Cory will remember the days when I ran a game store in Toronto. I used to sell a lot of games to serving military personnel.)

AVT Tor, is the West Point gaming convention open only to cadets, or is the public invited? I’m asking because I’d like to see how West Point cadets handle some of my scenarios (which involve fighting, but sometimes fighting is the wrong answer, and sometimes you want to fight for the wrong side).

Also because I have in the past GM’d someone who is now a West Point cadet! His parents met through D&D and he’s been playing since before he could hold dice.

I’ll (try to) save the rant for elsewhere, but, really, on a site that’s so often critical of cops, how have we allowed ourselves to be scared silent about soldiers (I mean, I have had to psych myself into posting this – that’s strange).

I realize that there are mechanisms of class and power in play, but really, why should we be required to pretend to have such boundless respect for people who decide that they only way they can get ahead in life is to become professional murderers?

Don’t support “our” troops. Support our citizens. Help them have options besides becoming bloodied cogs in the war machine, help them have an education so they know exactly how unethical putting on that uniform is, support them when they go AWOL, support them when they refuse to follow unlawful orders, support their healing from the massive psychological disorders that come with participating in (mass) murder when they’re out. But enough kowtowing to people who have agreed to kill without question on command. They are a tragedy, but they are no heroes of mine.

This is like somebody switching to Communism because an American insulted the Cubs.
“In other words gamers weren’t being targeted by this particular quote, they had already been dismissed as ludicrous/pathetic before the statement had been made. ”
That is exactly right. As a guy who played D&D in his teens, twenties, and thirties, I was totally unphased by this statement. His comments were rude but it doesn’t make McCain unfit for Presidency.
f y gys r ths thn sknnd vr cmmnt frm stffr thn y rlly r pthtc nd hv gd rsn t hd n yr bsmnt. The real world is filled with people who will say things that aren’t so great, but give them half a chance and they will turn around and buy you a cup of coffee, or wave you in to get the better parking spot, or offer you a discount at the store, or whatever. t snds lk mst f y lrdy hv md p yr mnd bt McCn nd r jst lttng ths fl th bm-fr brnng wthn y. t’s ky t hv dffrnt pnn n thngs bt lt f y mk t snd lk H RN VR YR PPPY (whch m ssmng h dd nt).
I love D&D – a great game, but that is all it is. f y r s pst vr ths cmmnt thn t s mr thn gm t y n whch cs – srry – y dsrv t b md fn f.

Up until recently, the military didn’t perform “policing” actions. Out of the 200+ year history of American military forces, that’s pretty much brand-spanking-new. That’s why it’s different.

We all berate those idiots and fools at Abu-Gharib, who acted like bullying cops. And it’s the DUTY of Army Soldiers to disobey Unlawful Orders. It’s also their Duty not to go AWOL. It is, after all, a volunteer military. Until the draft gets reinstated, I have no sympathy for someone who thought they could cut it, and then cut out.

Is a soldier, on a battlefield, killing another combatant murder? Not so much. But that same soldier killing civilians, is then committing murder. The difference is the choice of violent action. Peace onto the peaceable, death onto the other; or some such.

As long as their are poor, proud, or macho; there will be recruits going into the military. And before you go generally insulting the military, understand that the nation wouldn’t exist without the efforts of a militia.

Yes, help their psychological struggle. Yes, give them other alternatives. But don’t imagine that just because they’re soldiers for 1, 2, 4, or 20+ years that they’re contemptible murderers. It’s hard to say anything other than that’s (lacking intelligent rigor and clarity). When there are no wars, there will no longer be a need for soldiers; and “soldiers” will be murderers. Until then, war is part of life on earth. Don’t let idealism blind you to reality.

Operation Dice Drop and subsequently ZigguratCon last year proved the confluence between tabletop RPG players and Iraq battlefield combatants beyond the shadow of a doubt. So there’s folks in Iraq right now taking flak from both sides of the fence.

Flinging mud will get us nowhere. Goldfarb clearly failed to realize the ramifications of his recent foot-in-mouth episode, and resurrecting the specter of the D&D moral panic of the 1980s is remarkably silly and needlessly divisive. The reaction of gamers bashing our soldiers in return is equally dumb, since I’ve already pointed out that a fair number of them are ALSO gamers.

I have happily voted for McCain as Arizona’s senior Senator for years, and this by itself would not change my vote. Unfortunately for him, I also happen to feel that the time for him to have been President was eight years ago, not now.

So, yeah, I am, in fact, one of that “Obama Dungeons and Dragons crowd”, Mr. Goldfarb. I also worry about my friends in the military and am proud of the job they do, even if I do not agree with their Commander-in-Chief. Last time I checked, dissent is not un-American, and neither is Dungeons and Dragons.

Miwasatoshi 169: I also worry about my friends in the military and am proud of the job they do, even if I do not agree with their Commander-in-Chief. Last time I checked, dissent is not un-American, and neither is Dungeons and Dragons.

Me too. I guess most of my friends are out now, but I still worry about the ones who WOULD be my friends if I knew them…and now I know there are some.

If someone uses a hammer to smash up a stranger’s car for no reason, it’s no criticism of the hammer to say they shouldn’t have done it. In fact the hammer has been wronged (if an inanimate object can be wronged) by being misused in that way.

In the same sense, I feel that our military has been misused by the war in Iraq. No criticism of them: they did the job they were intended to do, exactly as ordered. Their orders come from the Worst President Ever, so the result has been a protracted and bloody conflict; but by and large (leaving out aberrations like Abu Ghraib) their execution has been skillful and their conduct exemplary.

They have been wrongfully used. I’m angry not at them, but on their behalf. My friend who had to black-tag his best friend in Iraq is out, thank gods, but he’ll never be the same.

I can only hope there will be a reckoning, and that the right people will be brought to justice.

I sent this to the contact e-mail on the McCain site. I think it should be posted in many more places.

I am a veteran. Let’s start by saying that. I am also an avid gamer. I know a lot of avid gamers, some veterans and some not. I am quite incensed by the recent comments of a McCain staffer. Michael Goldfarb was quoted as saying, “It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman’s memory of war from the comfort of mom’s basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others.”
I take great offense to this. I treated wounded during desert storm, some of who are/where avid gamers. I myself am a disabled veteran. I am highly offended at the stereotype that this staffer used. It’s stereotypes like this that cause distrust and hatred.
I know Senator McCain did not make these comments himself, but he should be more careful about who he lets represent him. Alienating these people, who most likely run the computer systems that run the world, is not a good move. A formal apology should be issued, and soon, unless he really does want the gaming community as a whole to go against him. We are a tight group, and we are many, and we have the power of fast communication at our fingertips.

I’m sure I’ll have to repeat this a bunch of times, but I’m getting real tired of the “soldiers are hired killers” line. I don’t blame the people who use it, because they sure didn’t invent it, but it’s needlessly dumb and divisive.

Where there is no willingness to use force to defend civilized society, itâ€™s civilized society that goes away, not force.

Short of that point, though, there are still going to be occasions when you obviously need defensive forces. You’ll have two options. One is to have an established professional military that operates under rules and is answerable to civilian authority. The other is to hire outfits like Blackwater. If you go with the latter option, not only will they be nastier over the short run, but over the long run there’s a good chance they’ll take over your government.

Some of the more insightful commenters in Boing Boing’s threads are former or serving military. If you can’t tell who I’m referring to, consider the possibility that you don’t know as much about the military as you think you do.

I still think the word “War” functions as a term for “mass murder” that society has an easier time accepting, just like “soldier” works as an easier-to-swallow name for “hired killer”. I don’t see a way around that. Soldiers get paid. To kill people. Hired killer. I’m sorry if you think that’s dumb, I think it’s honest. And I’m sorry if you think it’s divisive. I think war is divisive. Actually, I think war (state sanctioned and subsidized mass murder) is the greatest threat facing the species, and if we can’t talk honestly about it, what hope do we have? That includes discussing why we’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising encouraging our children to become hired killers rather than productive Dungeonmasters.

Also, I wrote the first post because I’ve seen very little discussion on bb critical of the military… the Iraq War, yes, but not the enlisted themselves… i think it’s telling that you immediately respond with “I hear this all the time, I’m so sick of it…” Imagine how I feel about yellow ribbons.

Moving on, do you really think civilians in the USA still maintain any kind of real control over the military? Ever heard any debates about scaling it back to save education/welfare/the environment or fund healthcare/guaranteed secondary education/peacecorps/americorps? Has any military answered for the atrocities and vast warcrimes in Fallujah? Do you lose sleep at night worrying about the threat of a peaceful Colombia, or what would happen if we didn’t have immediate strike capabilities over every square inch of the planet, or what the poor White Phosphorous merchants would do without our support? Didn’t think so. Our military has been out of control for as long as our corporations have been… since WWII or earlier. Check out “Addicted to War”, it states the facts well, it’s endorsed by Veterans For Peace, and it’s a comic.

“Where there is no willingness to use force to defend civilized society, itâ€™s civilized society that goes away, not force.”

Very pat. But I’m sorry – civilized society is under attack? I missed that – are you talking about Television? Or is it still the hippies?

In terms of national defense, I believe there are many alternatives to your binary of standing army or mercenary army… including largely unarmed and diplomatic ones. I also kinda think the nation-state will eventually go away… but give it a couple centuries. We’re talking here and now about nationally sanctioned mass murder and the people (I never called them despicable (Tom H @ 168), I just refuse to call them heroes) who get paid (and honored, and exploited) to perform that murder (yes, usually on a battlefield – which is where a bunch of people are trying to murder each other – how is it not murder because there’s a lot of it? I never got that).

Actually, we’re talking about a kinda sad old presidential candidate pissing off the internerds… cough.

As for your last paragraph, Teresa… often good people do bad things. Often whole societies do bad things. Denial, groupthink, and centuries, if not millenia, of obfuscating “warrior” ideologies are powerful psychological defenses.

I think the world needs to get beyond mass murder and hired killers, and that entails an honest discussion of what terms like “war” and “soldier” actually mean, and what they allow “governments” to do. I don’t think we’ll get beyond the need for armed defense (which, as I said, is a far cry from the “overwhelming military superiority” we currently fetishize) any time soon, but I think it’s a good goal to dream about. More concretely, I think the United States Military is a threat to the entire world, and we as a country need to come up with a way to massively scale it back or we will continue to put ourselves, and everybody else, in the gravest danger.

Ridl: War is a nasty business. There’s no denying it. Lots of people wind up dead or maimed, civilians suffer like hell, good stuff gets destroyed, and billions of dollars go down the drain forever. That’s why sane governments do all they can to avoid it; where it can’t be avoided, stave it off for as long as practicable; and when they do go to war, try to maintain human values and the rule of law.

War used to be worse. Sacking, pillaging, and slavetaking used to be regular procedures. Now they’re war crimes. Distinguishing combatants from noncombatants: big win. The Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners is a major improvement. Same goes for field medics, fast medevac flights, and decent hospitals; ditto, the recognition that soldiers are human beings, and have the right to be treated as such by their superiors. And yet, war is still awful. The difference is, it used to be godawful and then some.

The trouble with asserting that war is nothing more than state-sponsored mass murder is that the existence of war precedes the existence of states by millennia.

I’m sorry if you think that’s dumb, I think it’s honest.

I’m afraid you’re right: I do think it’s dumb. I also think you’re patting yourself on the back a good deal more than is seemly.

When you assert that people really go to war on account of “denial, groupthink, and … obfuscating ‘warrior’ ideologies,” and psychological defensiveness about same, what you’re saying is that you’re smarter than everyone else. They’re so blinded by their bad mental habits that they can’t see the simple basic truths that are obvious to you.

Furthermore, millennia of human civilizations have been blinded by those same bad memes. In consequence, they’ve gone to war, even though they knew (as we do not) that they might be the civilians that got murdered, pillaged, and enslaved; ditto, that the loss of manpower away fighting might mean underproduction and semi-starvation at home; ditto, that there’d be neither medics nor anesthesia if they were wounded, and neither help nor pension if they managed to limp home a cripple. Plus all the rest of the plain flat-out godawfulness of war, which a thousand tongues crying out unceasingly for a thousand years were inadequate to utter.

Do you truly believe they only did that because they’d failed to notice that war has no actual underlying causes, and that if only they’d been able to agree not to have wars any more, wars would have stopped happening?

Quoting songs is usually Takuan’s riff, but I feel the need to quote a song written by my friend Steve Brust. I’d rather link to his lyrics page, but he’s never put one up on his website.

War Is Badby Steven Brust

Last night as I lay in a doze on my bedA remarkable notion came into my headThe most shocking thought that I ever had,the realization that war is bad.

(chorus)

War is badpeace is goodnever use plastic if you can use wood.Be kind to strangers, give good jobs to vetsrecycle glass bottles, spay/neuter your pets.

All of those years of bloodshed and paincan now can forgotten and washed down the drain.Just like the sunshine come out from a cloudand all thanks to me, gee whiz am I proud.

(chorus)

So clear and so simple, my head almost burstI wonder why no one else thought of it first.We all should stop shooting and be civilizedI’ll tell all my friends and won’t they be surprised?

(chorus)

Everybody!

(chorus)

For the record, Steve is neither a political naif, nor a blind supporter of the status quo. Not hardly. Not by half.

You are of course free to believe that military personnel are nothing more than hired killers. You’re free to say so on your own website, or on other websites where it’s acceptable speech. But I’d very strongly prefer that you not say it here, because IMO it’s offensive, unjustified, and a slur on a good many of Boing Boing’s readers and commenters.

The thing with diplomacy is it only works if the other side wants to listen. That is not always the case. Call me a pessimist, but humans and by extention human nations can be greedy and unreasonable and feel they can get what they want by force. To say a diplomatic army can replace a standard or mercenary one is simply nieve.

Like all of us who play D&D I am hurt and angry by the hurtful and irresponsible statement by Goldfarb regarding the game. However, I don’t agree with aggressive and hurtful comments on this thread. Where’s all the anger coming from? I like WOTCs letter. No slurs. No name calling. Just the facts.

My comment to Goldfarb is he should be careful. A mistake like this can cost your candidate votes. This posture is not very professional in any arena(except perhaps at a professional wrestling match. OK, that wasn’t nice…).

For the record I’ve been playing D&D for nearly 30 years. I played my first game in 1979. It’s my hobby. I’m am a D&D geek. I have spent and will spend a lot of money on all the stuff. I have 4th and I love it!
GMB

As a gamer I have sent books and video games to our troops in Iraq specifically because that is what was asked of me by the various soldiers I know. Unfortunately, I don’t think that even the three Core Rulebooks are thick enough to stop a modern bullet, Cheney. SO YOU START SENDING THEM BODY ARMOR, I’LL KEEP SENDING THEM GAMES. And since when did this douchebag join the BADD-Thompson-Hillary-Tipper panic camp. Jesus. 70 years ago I would have been a Republican. Now there really isn’t a good candidate.