You prefer Sam without any data? What lead you to make that choice? then you asked for a pedigree, not data? What would it tell you if I said he was by 41/97 and from 56/07? Would that mean less to you than me saying he was by 41/97 from a Viking daughter? How many Viking daughters have you used? Were they fertile? good udders? enough milk? traditions sure die slow...what would be the difference in me answering all these questions for you one at a time...versus saying...use this bull to make daughters with moderate growth, moderate milk, and capacity to do well on grass

Indeed old cows that have calves into their teens, SHOULD NOT BE AN IMPROVEMENT, but the sad, sad fact is, it is desperately needed, by me. I could probably find one by searching the numbers, but it has not worked yet. As for costs of data collection, registery and such, probably better than 50 dollars a head, not including ultrasound, another 25, plus any genomic, parental profiles, labor and such, on two hundred cows....1 So for me that would be anywhere from, 10,000 to 20,000 or your joke of 18 dollars, REAL cost, would be just shy of 4000. Any of which would provide far better return in improvements in pasture conditions. But I have nothing to sell you, so nothing to prove to you, Mr. DF, so both of our times are pretty much wasted. My time is not worth that much, or I would be out weighing, grading, measuring something right now.

What lines consistently are productive into their teens?

correction...let`s start with what "type" is productive into their teens? then see if there is any preponderance of lineages creating this effect...or is it pretty random across ancestry? Are do random types remain productive into their teens ?

You prefer Sam without any data? What lead you to make that choice? then you asked for a pedigree, not data? What would it tell you if I said he was by 41/97 and from 56/07? Would that mean less to you than me saying he was by 41/97 from a Viking daughter? How many Viking daughters have you used? Were they fertile? good udders? enough milk? traditions sure die slow...what would be the difference in me answering all these questions for you one at a time...versus saying...use this bull to make daughters with moderate growth, moderate milk, and capacity to do well on grass

Just thought Sam was a nice looking bull; have no idea what you call "moderate". Is your definition of moderate the same as mine?

Indeed old cows that have calves into their teens, SHOULD NOT BE AN IMPROVEMENT, but the sad, sad fact is, it is desperately needed, by me. I could probably find one by searching the numbers, but it has not worked yet. As for costs of data collection, registery and such, probably better than 50 dollars a head, not including ultrasound, another 25, plus any genomic, parental profiles, labor and such, on two hundred cows....1 So for me that would be anywhere from, 10,000 to 20,000 or your joke of 18 dollars, REAL cost, would be just shy of 4000. Any of which would provide far better return in improvements in pasture conditions. But I have nothing to sell you, so nothing to prove to you, Mr. DF, so both of our times are pretty much wasted. My time is not worth that much, or I would be out weighing, grading, measuring something right now.

What lines consistently are productive into their teens?

correction...let`s start with what "type" is productive into their teens? then see if there is any preponderance of lineages creating this effect...or is it pretty random across ancestry? Are do random types remain productive into their teens ?

Is it better that the cow lives to 15 and wean 450 lb calves or 12 and wean 500 lb calves?

You prefer Sam without any data? What lead you to make that choice? then you asked for a pedigree, not data? What would it tell you if I said he was by 41/97 and from 56/07? Would that mean less to you than me saying he was by 41/97 from a Viking daughter? How many Viking daughters have you used? Were they fertile? good udders? enough milk? traditions sure die slow...what would be the difference in me answering all these questions for you one at a time...versus saying...use this bull to make daughters with moderate growth, moderate milk, and capacity to do well on grass

Just thought Sam was a nice looking bull; have no idea what you call "moderate". Is your definition of moderate the same as mine?

What about "cool"?

I have no idea what you call "nice"? I thought nice was a term from Miss Manners, not livestock judging?super cool maybe?

Indeed old cows that have calves into their teens, SHOULD NOT BE AN IMPROVEMENT, but the sad, sad fact is, it is desperately needed, by me. I could probably find one by searching the numbers, but it has not worked yet. As for costs of data collection, registery and such, probably better than 50 dollars a head, not including ultrasound, another 25, plus any genomic, parental profiles, labor and such, on two hundred cows....1 So for me that would be anywhere from, 10,000 to 20,000 or your joke of 18 dollars, REAL cost, would be just shy of 4000. Any of which would provide far better return in improvements in pasture conditions. But I have nothing to sell you, so nothing to prove to you, Mr. DF, so both of our times are pretty much wasted. My time is not worth that much, or I would be out weighing, grading, measuring something right now.

What lines consistently are productive into their teens?

correction...let`s start with what "type" is productive into their teens? then see if there is any preponderance of lineages creating this effect...or is it pretty random across ancestry? Are do random types remain productive into their teens ?

Is it better that the cow lives to 15 and wean 450 lb calves or 12 and wean 500 lb calves?

now that is a valid question...and could perhaps be answered without owning a cow...give some student a special credit project and have him or her report back to us...

Indeed old cows that have calves into their teens, SHOULD NOT BE AN IMPROVEMENT, but the sad, sad fact is, it is desperately needed, by me. I could probably find one by searching the numbers, but it has not worked yet. As for costs of data collection, registery and such, probably better than 50 dollars a head, not including ultrasound, another 25, plus any genomic, parental profiles, labor and such, on two hundred cows....1 So for me that would be anywhere from, 10,000 to 20,000 or your joke of 18 dollars, REAL cost, would be just shy of 4000. Any of which would provide far better return in improvements in pasture conditions. But I have nothing to sell you, so nothing to prove to you, Mr. DF, so both of our times are pretty much wasted. My time is not worth that much, or I would be out weighing, grading, measuring something right now.

What lines consistently are productive into their teens?

correction...let`s start with what "type" is productive into their teens? then see if there is any preponderance of lineages creating this effect...or is it pretty random across ancestry? Are do random types remain productive into their teens ?

Is it better that the cow lives to 15 and wean 450 lb calves or 12 and wean 500 lb calves?

now that is a valid question...and could perhaps be answered without owning a cow...give some student a special credit project and have him or her report back to us...

Fertility and weight with economic values; sounds like an index!! Now we are talking.

$18/cow allow you to register and transfer one calf in the Gelbvieh breed (Total Herd Reporting). That is the only fee to also report the disposal of the cows. It probably does not cost anymore than that to record and transfer an Angus calf out of owned sires. The money is not the issue, unless your margins in this business are so slim that $18/cow will break you, which I know it won't.

Dennis, I have no wish to pile on but thought I'd make a few observations. The 'cost' of submitting data to aaa (including reg fees if you want epds and certs if you AI) is a minimum of $20, likely closer to $40. The question is 'why bother?' we pay the aaa to handle the paperwork that they claim costs them money to do, use the money to grow the bureaucracy that is itching to do things that have nothing to do with breed promotion, and likely harm the breed, then claim to be good value. If there is promotion it is to spend more money with them to ultrasound (min $25/hd cost) or the worthless dna profiling (min $65/hd). I am thinking that there is something to be said for keeping my own data, NOT paying aaa for the privilege and presenting whatever useful measures of my cattles performance and type will help my customers progress. You are right though, it isn't the money per se, more the who benefits from the money. I can understand completely where Mike and others have no interest or wish to feed the monster, just because something can be measured doesn't mean that measure is useful.

$18/cow allow you to register and transfer one calf in the Gelbvieh breed (Total Herd Reporting). That is the only fee to also report the disposal of the cows. It probably does not cost anymore than that to record and transfer an Angus calf out of owned sires. The money is not the issue, unless your margins in this business are so slim that $18/cow will break you, which I know it won't.

Dennis, I have no wish to pile on but thought I'd make a few observations. The 'cost' of submitting data to aaa (including reg fees if you want epds and certs if you AI) is a minimum of $20, likely closer to $40. The question is 'why bother?' we pay the aaa to handle the paperwork that they claim costs them money to do, use the money to grow the bureaucracy that is itching to do things that have nothing to do with breed promotion, and likely harm the breed, then claim to be good value. If there is promotion it is to spend more money with them to ultrasound (min $25/hd cost) or the worthless dna profiling (min $65/hd). I am thinking that there is something to be said for keeping my own data, NOT paying aaa for the privilege and presenting whatever useful measures of my cattles performance and type will help my customers progress. You are right though, it isn't the money per se, more the who benefits from the money. I can understand completely where Mike and others have no interest or wish to feed the monster, just because something can be measured doesn't mean that measure is useful.

A real pisser for me was building an AAA mailing list from my transfers to promote the mainstream genetics AGAINST the minority ideas and concepts a few of us, maybe many of us, ascribe to...

It is true I did not use high values. Several years ago I was part of a group that looked at all of the major breed assoc as to their fee structure. The way some breed assoc are structured penalize the members more than others. And depending on how many calves are registered, it is often cheaper to register them all under total herd reporting compared to picking and choosing which ones you want to register.

Certainly if you AI, thus needing AI certs, the costs can go up considerably. Of course, a like minded group might decide to keep their cert cost low to encourage exchange of superior genetics.

Like minded groups associated by their own free will keep costs for superior genetics low without an official association. If you are like minded, I knew it, and you asked - you were welcome to use anything I have for free.

When I hear Total Herd Reporting It sounds too much like Single payer universal health care. You pay up front- jump through the hoops OTHERS deem necessary and then you get all these services weather you want them or not. I don't care to associate with either one.

Did the founding fathers of Angus, or any other breed, belong to an association, herdbook, etc.? or did they just send along a ruled paper, saying " here she is boys, good luck''?

Just trying to figure out how to preside over the kingdom, once the Revolution is over, of course a new one may start out on the fringes somewhere, so I may need advice, consulates, and such, on the proper course of action to squish a counter-revolution.....pimpin' aint easy, and this revolution stuff could get complicated. What if we win, then what?

Did the founding fathers of Angus, or any other breed, belong to an association, herdbook, etc.? or did they just send along a ruled paper, saying " here she is boys, good luck''?

Just trying to figure out how to preside over the kingdom, once the Revolution is over, of course a new one may start out on the fringes somewhere, so I may need advice, consulates, and such, on the proper course of action to squish a counter-revolution.....pimpin' aint easy, and this revolution stuff could get complicated. What if we win, then what?

we reap the spoils of war; get too rich and lazy; and history repeats itself

I am getting edgy already, went and mounted the .50 out on the tower.....I think the MAN has been watching, hacked into my account, and changed my timezone. Spooky stuff, no backs to the door for me for a while, sleeping light with Spotted Doggs at the door/

Bootheel, warm thoughts are much appreciated. Snow is almost gone now, in only a short 6 months we can look forward to it's return. Heck we still aren't out of the woods(snow) yet. Last year we got 4 inches of wet snow MAY 29th.

Do you have a big ole chicken effigy out yonder to help sight in your.50?

You gots to pay attention around here, Dylan, never know where the profound trinkets are going to show up, as the Corner gets filled with castaways, throwaways, idiots,Vosstards, not to be confused with Basstards, which dont come around much, since lower IQ fishes tend to have troubles with with magic talking screens. But anyhow, since Oldgeezer hasnt filled us in with a climatology summary for the week, here, just rain, rain, mixed with rain, humidity and a little more rain. Good thing you are a grassfeeder, corn might be scarce in these parts.

No need for efigies, as the givernment goats and chickens are in ample supply, keeps the warriors tuned up, and the squaws well fed and busy. You keep posting those doggie pictures and Mike is liable to adopt you, or move in, oust you out, 'pendin' on the outcome of the Revolution of course.