60 Responses to MP: three year trial period?

If true,three years and then what?
I wonder if Pope St Pius V gave a three year trial period to the Mass.
For that matter I wonder if Christ gave a three year trial period to the Mass.
I just don’t get it.Hopefully this is just a rumor.
God bless you

I think it is a nice trick, if true. By giving it a three year trial, one calms the nerves of some, ensuring a smoother acceptance of the MP. But at the same time, puts the burdon of proof, in three years time, on those who are against it (reversing the current situation). And I can’t . In three years, all the dust will have settled, the MP will be old news, adn can be quietly renewed the Pope

I could imagine that a trial period might attach to some specific pastoral provisions, such as how many people it would take to require local pastors to provide a Mass in a given church.

However, if the Holy Father is going to settle the canonical status of the traditional liturgy in itself, dealing with whether it has even been abrogated or obrogated, then that could hardly have any trial period attached; that would be a statement of a legal fact. If he were to suggest that he was restoring rights that had been abrogated, of course, then a trial period would be possible. I pray that isn’t the case!

A three-year trial period will mean that the whole issue of the Classical liturgy will be discussed again in three years. That’s great publicity! And I can’t imagine the Pope going back on freeing the Classical Mass, especially since it will continue to grow like wildfire.

By contrast, a three year trial might give certain priests and bishops the hope that if they just ignore this little experiment for a few years, it will just go away. Not really the message one might wish to send.

In fact, I don’t believe that there will be a trial period. If there is one, then it surely must be limited to some of the provisions of the MP regarding the practical implementation of the new rules of “cohabitation” between the two rites (number of Masses offered per week in each rite, Holy Week provisions, etc).

What is more: if there is a trial period, could this mean that, if the provision made is not sufficient, then further provision will be made to guarantee the rightful aspirations of those attached to the traditional liturgy?

On the question of the derrestriction being granted “for those who can understand Latin”, that makes no sense at all. Latin is still the official Liturgical language of the Latin Church, even for the celebration of the Pauline rite, rectius, the celebration of the ordinary form of the one Roman Rite (cf. Conciliar Constitution on Sacred Liturgy, art. 36, section 1).

Thus, under the Conciliar Constitution, the legal rule for Masses celebrated in the rites of the Latin Church is that Latin be employed. Therefore, one does not to prove that one understands Latin. Latin is the rule, vernacular is the exception.

One would need to prove that there is a pastoral need for a concession of vernacular celebrations under Sacrossanctum Concilium, art. 36, section 2, and that the commuinity affected by that pastoral measure understands the vernacular language in question.

Vernacular, being the liturgical exception, can be surrounded with pre-requisits for being authorized. But not Latin. Latin is the general rule. If one is a subject of the Latin Church, then one will have a Mass in Latin avaliable, be it celebrated in the ordinary form of the Roman rite or in another form.

Unless the Church authorities are prepared to admit that they make tabula rasa, and completely ignore, section 1 of article 36 of the Conciliar Constitution on the Liturgy, there is no reason for saying that one will only be able to request the celebration of the Tridentine, er…, extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, when one understands Latin if the general legal rule is that one can attend a Latin language celebration of the Novus Ordo without needing to prove knowledge of Latin.

Thus, I don’t believe that anyone will have to prove understanding of Latin. It wouldn’t make legal sense.

Not too hasty. Let’s wait & see. There could be a number of things on a 3-year leash. IF there is a 3-year period for something, it could just as easily be a “straighten-up clause” for the Pauline missal, or a milestone clause for the entire liturgical situation in the Latin rite.

Pope Benedict wants very much to see the hermaneutic of continuity realized, remember. He’s written about it for years. And he’s smart. He won’t create a situation where even more people would feel like running off to the SSPX to get the Latin mass. A collapse or a “failure to effect” would make things worse than ever for the Church (and the Pope) and I’m sure he has considered all this.

Thus I don’t anticipate a 3-year-only curtain call for the Mass of John XXIII. It’s more conceivable that a “3-yr Pauline cleanup” or “overall milestone clause” exists, and if so, it could become somewhat of a football, and a bit of prevarication could well pivot around it (not like we haven’t seen that before). We don’t yet know how what little we’re hearing relates to the actual document. We should know soon.

I’m wondering if the new translation of the Novus Ordo figures in here anywhere too. It’s possible. Just one more “lever” to apply.

I do know one thing: I don’t expect the status quo to take this MP sitting down, whether there is a 3-yr clause &/or a timetable or not. But I also believe that it’ll matter far less than they think what kind of fit they throw. We’ll see.

I know that you have credentials to the Holy See press office. That is why I ask the following, if you will forgive my curiosity: Do you have access to the Bulletin of the Holy See press office under embargo?

If you have, then let me just ask something else: Is the Motu Proprio already released under embargo?

I want to clarify that IÂ´m not asking you or anyone to violate the embargo, much less to break the seal of pontifical secret. IÂ´m not asking to be informed of the content of the document that is under embargo, its text, its provisions. However, given that the Holy See Press Office itself issued a statement on the meeting of prelates convened by the Vatican to inform them of the text of the MP and of its publication in the next few days, and given that it is customary for pontifical documents to be released under embargo a few days in advance, I wonder if that step was taken in the present case.

Finally, one last question: If a document, any document, were under embargo, and if you had access to the Bulletin of the Holy See Press Office under embargo, then would your obligations arrising from the embargo prohibit you from merely saying that a document has been released under embargo (without revealling its text or key points) or would your obligations simply prohibit you from releasing the text and commenting on it?

Please, IÂ´m not trying to push anyone into violating the Holy See rules. If you can’t answer a question due to your obligations, then consider as if it had never been asked. And again, IÂ´m not trying to get comment on the text or anything, IÂ´m only curious to know if the costumary release under embargo has already taken place, and only if that can be lawfully answered.

My approach to the embargo is very strict.

I realize that the Pauline Missal was released with a three year trial period,but that was because it was hastily fabricated and the Holy Father wanted to see if the Holy Ghost would make it stick.
The Classical Rite has had a 1700 year trial period,and it got the green light from same Third Person.There is no reason for a three year trial period.

As far as SSPX and the possible 3 year window go, the problem they have with the ‘conciliar Church’ goes beyond the liturgy, so this MP alone wouldn’t satisfy ‘them’. I put them in quotes for it seems to me that there are some fizzures in the group. But it might satisfy some people that go to their chaples mainly if not exclusivley for the liturgy, and give them an another, regular, rather then irregular, place to go.

But I think that, as much as B XVI and all people of good will want to work out the problems with SSPX, and although often mentioned, I don’t think it is his prime motivation in issuing the MP: that, I suspect, is his long standing concern with a hermeneutic of continuity.

One more thing to forestall an objection I can see coming: I know that the SSPX-issue and the Hermeneutic of Continuity issue have a lot in common, so that working to advance one tends to advance the other, but they are ultimatley two distinct things, since the SSPX reading of the Council is strongly a hermeneutic of rupture

Of course, the Pope, whether this one or the next, could always undo the MP anyway, so I do not think an ad experimentum period of itself adds any more uncertainy that there already could be. It would send a bad signal of irresolution, however, and probably act as an encourage ment to those opposed to just sit tight and wait him out. So I will still be bummed. But I’m getting ready to be bummed anyway.

I hope, come this weekend, we donâ€™t all feel like Charlie Brown after Lucy pulled the ball away. I fail to understand the need for a â€œthree-year trial periodâ€ on reinstating the Mass of All Time, which was never formally abolished. I pray the Pope was not coerced into making concessions that play into the hands of the Modernist hierarchy.

Yes, I knowâ€¦letâ€™s wait until the document is actually published. Likewise, letâ€™s hold off on uncorking the champagne just yet.

Correct, Benard. The two extremes are simply two sides of the one coin.

And I’ll tell you something else: Most pew-Catholics are of the continuity mindset even if they think that resides in the Pauline mass because they’ve been told this over and over by those they hold in authority. Many of them have done the best they could under heavy fire and under conditions of abject neglect. Many of them will slide right over to something that looks more eternal if it’s presented to them properly with time to assimilate. THey only went over to the Pauline mass (and all its reductive elements) under heavy protest in the first place. They don’t like the name-calling & running-down they heard in the 70s and it must not be repeated. They’re just people but they’re not all so dumb. They’re Catholics and that means loyal and that’s just fine.

Woody, the Holy Spirit protects us and he’s not going to die and be re-elected. Take it easy.

I realize the Pope is under intense pressure from all sides in this matter, but frankly, I think we need decisive action — not double-speak. I believe the implications of the MP may be just as important, to the average Catholic, as the actual words. Terms, conditions or other “fine print” on freeing the Mass may cause people to become hesitant in accepting the MP as the “final word” by the Supreme Pontiff. A three-year period just sounds like more collegiality!

Along the same lines as the putative “trial period” are the various restrictions mooted in the full (French) text of the I.MEDIA article (linked-to by Rorate-Caeli and other blogs.) Is it possible that the m.p. would, for instance, contain a clause specifically exempting the Triduum? In the absence of any other legislation would this effectively preclude any of the liturgies of the Triduum from being celebrated except in full traditional-rite personal parishes?

I am thinking of the many well-established diocesan indults which have heretofore been unable to manage the logistics of celebrating any of these liturgies in a “bi-ritual” parish. It was not unreasonable to anticipate that a document affirming the status of the 1962 books might provide the rationale for having *some* of the Triduum in the classical rite in such circumstances.

Is it reasonable to expect that the provisions of “Summorum Pontificum” will be so granular?

Isn’t it obvious that any derestriction of the older Latin rite will inevitably require mid-course review and correction that might well be built into the process initially?

For instance, though hand missals render knowledge of Latin unnecessary for laity, surely some knowledge of Latin should be required of celebrants. If and when celebration of the TLM becomes a feather in a priest’s biretta, we can be certain that unqualified priests will be attempting to celebrate it willy nilly. Can we be confident that the diligence of our bishops in protecting the old Mass from abuse will match the diligence they have exhibited with the new Mass?

My own greatest fear in this whole situation is the abuse of the old Mass that seems inevitable. Some priests just will not obey norms and rubrics. For instance, recently I attended a private TLM that was interrupted by the celebrant preaching a brief homily. Excellent and pertinent though it seemed to me, someone remarked afterwards that a homily at a private Mass is improper. If indeed this is so, it was the only liturgical abuse I observed at this particular Mass. But you just cannot be too vigilant when it comes to guarding the purity of the liturgy.

Similarly, I fear tampering with the TLM in some progressive parishes. I’ve heard horror stories about “hybrid” Indult masses combining elements of the old and new liturgies. This type of situation serves no one, and is certainly scandalous to the Faithful.

There will be many challenges ahead in implementing this Motu Proprio. I pray that our Church is up to the task!

I also wondered if it were possible that the line about knowledge of Latin was someone’s misunderstanding of a requirement that the celebrant’s Latin be adequate, rather than the people’s! (Someone, perhaps, who has seen a draft of the Latin original, but whose own Latin isn’t especially good?) That certainly is a legitimate concern, given that so many seminaries don’t require it at all.

As to the Triduum, one can see that the MP is unlikely to require mainly new rite parishes to displace their new rite Triduum services for a small group of traditional rite faithful, and obviously, it’s usually impossible to have more than set of services in the same church.

However, since the same article also suggests that the MP will encourage the establishment of personal parishes for the traditional rite, the situation may improve dramatically in this respect and in many others.

Three year period could be good or bad…good in that it could settle the fears of some of the bishops and give a wider reception to the document, but bad if BXVI should die within the three year period and be replaced by somebody not as supportive of true liturgical reform.

Three year period could be good or bad…good in that it could settle the fears of some of the bishops and give a wider reception to the document, but bad if BXVI should die within the three year period and be replaced by somebody not as supportive of true liturgical reform.

Could a decision to except from the derestriction the Triduum Liturgy have anything to do with the totally inappropriate attempt on the part of our Jewish brethren and certain segments of the Israeli media of dictating to us what our Good Friday services can or cannot contain?

I hardly think that a brief homily during a “private” TLM is inappropriate, as long as the priest has faculties to preach from his bishop. Secondly, from a theological point of view, there really isn’t any such thing as “private” celebrations of the Sacred Liturgy. All celebrations of the Sacred Liturgy are public acts of worship even if the priest celebrates Mass or prays his office “alone.”

“Could a decision to except from the derestriction the Triduum Liturgy have anything to do with the totally inappropriate attempt on the part of our Jewish brethren and certain segments of the Israeli media of dictating to us what our Good Friday services can or cannot contain?”

I certainly agree with Serafino as to preaching. A sermon is required at parochial Masses on certain occasions, but I’ve never been aware of any restrictions on preaching at Mass, apart from special cases such as eulogies etc.

I am very reluctant to speculate along the lines that Prof. Basto suggests on the Good Friday issue. I don’t believe the Holy Father would bend to such pressure. I think it is much more likely to do with the practicalities of scheduling in situations where a basically new rite church is being obliged to put on traditional Masses for a group requesting them. On Sundays, there are many possible Mass times. During the Triduum, much less so, and so for now, the status quo is going to win out. Hence, of course, the need for personal parishes (along with many other reasons).

As to the SSPX, it is true that a trial period would delay a reconciliation, if it concerned anything other than practical details. However, if it is made clear that priests have the legal right to celebrate the traditional Mass if they so wish, without limitation, then one of the SSPX’s two major preconditions for reconciliation will have been met…

This is all just pre-release guessing too. Who knows who is putting such things into the minds of journalists who are eager to have a story? Before you get too wrapped up in these things, remember that it’s “game on.” Some people are astounded by the news of last week and will do what they can to cause difficulty. We will all know soon.

I knew, when I wrote it, that trouble was comming: someone would end up calling me anti-semitic, or say that I share in the paranoia of the SSPX against ecumenism. None of which is true.

Its just that, if the jews, the muslims, etc., want to have in their iturgies some prayer to God begging that we Catholics may see what they wrongly believe to be the Truth, that would be fine by me. It makes sense, it is their religion, and they would be within their liberty confirmed by Nostra Aetate, etc, to hold to their beliefs, and also to pray for us who they think are in error. Similarly, however, I cherish our liberty, which is sacred, the liberty of the Church, that has a much higher dignity than the liberty of the other religions, because it stems from the mandate of Our Lord. And to preserve our liberty, the liberty of the Catholic Church to preach the Truth in all Nations and political systems, a liberty that has often been violated in the history of the World, we must reject, and, more then simply reject, rebuke as innapropriate, any external attempts to dictate the contents of our Liturgy.

And, given that indult communities today, in a pre-derrestriction world, have the right, under Ecclesia Dei, Quattuor abhinc annos, and other pontifical concessions, to celebrate the Tridentine Mass during the entire liturgical year, why would the situation now change? Why, if we already have Tridentine Triduums in the indult communities, would the MP except the Triduum upon enhancing the status of the Tridentine rite? If it is true, it could only be to appease lobbies.

After all, our present indult communities (including bi-ritual parishes) show that the two forms of the Triduum can co-exist.

I didn’t understand you. One of the limitations of this medium is that we don’t hear one another’s tone of voice.

As for the the line – if it looks like a duck… – I know it was supposed to end saying – “then it is a duck” – but I tought it could mean several things. For instance: if I sound like a paranoied man, then I am a paranoied man.

I think it is a nice trick, if true. By giving it a three year trial, one calms the nerves of some, ensuring a smoother acceptance of the MP. But at the same time, puts the burdon of proof, in three years time, on those who are against it (reversing the current situation). And I canâ€™t . In three years, all the dust will have settled, the MP will be old news, adn can be quietly renewed the Pope

I couldn’t disagree more. We know that one reason for the MP is to make the SSPX confident about future use of the 1962 Missal. If the MP says there will be a 3 year test period, then the SSPX will probably say, “Good, see you in three years.”

For that reason I have to wonder whether a 3 year test period is a attempted pre-emptive strike by MP opponents.

What it might say is that the pope will look at it again in three years, but that’s not the same as saying that the de-restriction is for three years and must be renewed.

Dunno …. *if* the MP actually states, “…if after three years you have severe difficulties, let me know and we can work them out…” — well, it seems neutral to me. “Working out” something can be applied to either party, right?

Don’t worry overmuch. The Loggia only has two
space-holding paragraphs, and those only in the
Unknown Tongue [at least to the vast majority of
blog readers]. So we really still don’t know
anything about it.

I don’t believe in the 3-year experimentation period. And it is not a question of meeting SSPX expectations or not delaying the SSPX reconcilation project.
Reasons for the derestriction are deeply rooted in theology of liturgy and do not depend on time. Introduction of a probation period would be a contribution to continuous post-conciliar experimentation rather than an attempt to rescue organic development. |
I would more believe in that the document isn’t there at all rather than it introduces a probation period understood as a possibility to de-derestrict the old rite.

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