^^^That's the case with any law, isn't it? Doesn't mean we should not have the laws. Laws and rules show what the parameters of acceptable behavior in a society are.

Absolutely. But, I think, implying that the murder rate in Chicago would go down if Indiana had better gun laws isn't addressing the real problem. The gangs of inner city Chicago aren't buying guns in another state through a loophole. Whatever means they're using to obtain guns are already illegal.

First off, no law is perfect. You will be able to point to a hole in whatever I propose, which will in some way, large or small, provide room for bad people to do bad things. That does not mean we should not have better rules. We have laws against murder, yet people get murdered anyway. That does not mean we should not have laws against murder.

That said, I think there are a lot things that could be done. I have a theory that there are more or less law abiding citizens doing bad things simply because there is no requirement for them to do otherwise. I am talking about the sellers of guns without any kind of check on who they are selling them to. I think there are occasions where people are selling guns and don't want to know who is buying them or what for.

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Gun dealers in these states also have little incentive to care who they sell to, since the law likely won't punish them -- South Carolina has no penalties for straw purchases, and North Carolina, has no penalties for buying guns with false information.

So, my first step would be to put some responsibility back on the sellers. All of them, not just licensed dealers. You could require background checks on all gun transfers. Not doing so would be a felony. You could require the transfer of ownership off any gun to be through a registered firearms dealer. To do otherwise would be a felony.

As an additional penalty, you could revoke gun ownership rights for people who break that law. In fact, I'd make that a blanket rule. We do that for drunk drivers. Drive drunk, you lose your license. Break a gun law, lose all your guns.

Not reporting stolen guns within 48 hours off discovering they were stolen would be a felony.

I think in the end though, there has to be a gun registry, just like there is for cars, if you really want to keep guns away from criminals. That way you can track back who owned what gun and figure out who is culpable for arming criminals.

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I'm all for background checks and eliminating the loophole, but it only keeps the honest people honest.

The gangs of inner city Chicago aren't buying guns in another state through a loophole.

Are you sure? Most of the guns used by criminals in NYC are procured out of state.

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The federal government's recent analysis shows that while 420 of the illegal guns recovered in the city had originally been sold within New York State - accounting for the largest single-state total - a majority of the guns had been sold in other states, like Virginia, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Georgia.

Two weeks ago, Mayor Bloomberg stood in City Hall and announced an astonishing statistic - some 90 percent of guns used in crimes in New York City come from out-of-state. Today, we saw the sad reality of that frightening statistic.

Thanks to the extraordinary work of our dedicated law enforcement professionals, more than 250 illegal firearms - including handguns, a fully automatic machine gun, and high capacity assault weapons - were taken off the streets, the largest seizure of illegal guns in city history.

Tellingly, more than half of those guns were funneled from North Carolina, with the rest from South Carolina - two states with weak gun laws compared to ours. In those states, unlike New York, gun owners who lose their weapons or claim that they were stolen are not required to report the loss to the police.

I think in the end though, there has to be a gun registry, just like there is for cars, if you really want to keep guns away from criminals. That way you can track back who owned what gun and figure out who is culpable for arming criminals.

Sure, that's plausible, in theory. In practical terms though, there are going to be many, many unaccounted for guns that are already in circulation. But you already knew that.

The gangs of inner city Chicago aren't buying guns in another state through a loophole.

Are you sure? Most of the guns used by criminals in NYC are procured out of state.

Oh, I didn't doubt they were coming in from out of state, I'm just saying that the gang memebers aren't crossing state lines to go to gun shows to procure arms. They are getting them from gun runners, illegally.

But, let's hope that a federal law passes that eliminates these loopholes and requires licensing and background checks, and it correlates to a drastic reduction in gang violence by gun and suicide in general. I'd be the first to applaud.

Oh, I didn't doubt they were coming in from out of state, I'm just saying that the gang memebers aren't crossing state lines to go to gun shows to procure arms. They are getting them from gun runners, illegally.

? Someone is getting around the glaring loophole in the law. What does it matter who?

Oh, I didn't doubt they were coming in from out of state, I'm just saying that the gang memebers aren't crossing state lines to go to gun shows to procure arms. They are getting them from gun runners, illegally.

? Someone is getting around the glaring loophole in the law. What does it matter who?

I'm not convinced that the gangbanger's guns in NY and Chicago are being bought through the loophole is all. Maybe they are, maybe they're not. And, if they are, then see my last paragraph above.

If they're not, then they'd still be coming into those cities and any new laws won't make a difference, except to the law abiding, which I guess was my not-clearly-addressed point all along.

Don't know where this happened but I heard today that a SWAT officer was shot by a 6 or 7 year old at a school program where the officer was talking about safety. The kid walked up to him and somehow fired the gun in his holster. You have to watch out for those little ones.

Sheesh, lots more guns around equals more people getting shot for stupid reasons. Training does not seem to make much difference, because the trained people are even more likely to have lots of guns around the untrained people. That's why military bases--where the most trained gun users hang out-- keep the guns and ammo under lock and key except during training and maneuvers.

This may be the wrong thread, because this story isn't a gun fail, it is a gun success. Seems a fellow in Florida, just because he felt he had to, shot and killed three neighbors while they were having a BBQ because he felt they were going to kill him someday. And he is essentially using the "stand your ground" law as his defense.

I think it's wonderful. We should all, you know, be able to shoot anyone that we think might want to shoot us some day. I'm gonna start a petition or something. If people won't sign it, I'll shoot them because their refusal to sign must mean they want to hurt me.

I think it's wonderful. We should all, you know, be able to shoot anyone that we think might want to shoot us some day. I'm gonna start a petition or something. If people won't sign it, I'll shoot them because their refusal to sign must mean they want to hurt me.

I'm so brilliant.

Maybe we should be able to shoot blacks because they are most likely the ones to possess and use firearms:

If you are going to just give me the "only criminals break the laws" bullshit over and over, then get out of the conversation. I don't have the time or energy to respond to that again particularly if you aren't going to make an effort to get it.

Don't know where this happened but I heard today that a SWAT officer was shot by a 6 or 7 year old at a school program where the officer was talking about safety. The kid walked up to him and somehow fired the gun in his holster. You have to watch out for those little ones.

apparently the guns that SWAT team uses don't have safeties. The police captain was quoted as saying "There is nothing we could have done differently.” Except, you know, maybe not carry a loaded gun that has no safety around kids? Imbicile.

Gun dealers in these states also have little incentive to care who they sell to, since the law likely won't punish them -- South Carolina has no penalties for straw purchases, and North Carolina, has no penalties for buying guns with false information.

The implication from the above quote is that it is somehow not illegal to buy guns with false information or make straw purchases in SC and NC. Using false information to buy firearms and making straw purchases are both illegal under federal law. What would the state law say that the federal law doesn't say?

There is an article regarding the breakup of a gun ring in NY, in which the guns were bought in NC and SC. The perps were arrested for violating laws involving both the illegal purchasing and illegal sales of guns. It is interesting to note that the sellers of the guns are being indicted as well.

apparently the guns that SWAT team uses don't have safeties. The police captain was quoted as saying "There is nothing we could have done differently.”

Which is yet another demonstration of how little firearms training law enforcement officers receive.

Like most law enforcement agencies in the United States, this particular SWAT team uses Glocks. Glocks have three safeties: a trigger safety, a firing pin safety, and a drop safety. The Glock is, in fact, one of the safest pistols in the world, but no firearm's safety features are going to function properly if the most important safety of all -- the one between your ears -- is not properly engaged.

Logged

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

To imply that it is ok to use false information or to make straw purchases in any state, just because that state does not have a law duplicating a federal law, is ludicrous.

Then you tell me why people bothered to go all the way from NY to the Carolinas for guns and not just buy them in NY. Why not make a straw purchases in NY state and save on gas and time? Did they just want to take the scenic route? If the law is the law is the law, why was it worth their effort to get guns 700 miles away?

Could it be that the laws were more lax in the Carolinas? Could it be something about NY state laws that made it impossible for them to get the guns?

You guys keep arguing that laws won't do anything. Yet, we see in NY they are. If they weren't, people would not be driving to the deep south to acquire guns. If every state had the same laws as NY, it would be much harder for them to even find a gun.

You guys say you want to keep the guns out of the hands of bad guys. But your actions tell me you don't actually care. You are not willing to do anything to ensure it. You just shrug your shoulders and bitch about people who are putting in the effort. You act as if the occasional mass shooting and gang warfare is just the price of freedom.

Then you tell me why people bothered to go all the way from NY to the Carolinas for guns and not just buy them in NY. Why not make a straw purchases in NY state and save on gas and time? Did they just want to take the scenic route? If the law is the law is the law, why was it worth their effort to get guns 700 miles away?

Could it be that the laws were more lax in the Carolinas? Could it be something about NY state laws that made it impossible for them to get the guns?

The people who were caught were from NC and SC. They didn't go from NY to do anything, except return home to their accomplices and familiar territory.

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You guys keep arguing that laws won't do anything. Yet, we see in NY they are. If they weren't, people would not be driving to the deep south to acquire guns. If every state had the same laws as NY, it would be much harder for them to even find a gun.

The law changed in NY in March 2013 to require a background check for all private long gun sales in NY. The implication is that private sales of shotguns and rifles before that date were not subject to background checks - the same as under federal law in most states between two residents of the same state. (I'll have to check on prior law and make sure the implication is correct.)

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You guys say you want to keep the guns out of the hands of bad guys. But your actions tell me you don't actually care. You are not willing to do anything to ensure it. You just shrug your shoulders and bitch about people who are putting in the effort. You act as if the occasional mass shooting and gang warfare is just the price of freedom.

I told you how I felt about the gang problems in other states, and you told me to stop whining. I don't give a rat's fuck about the gangs in NY. You want a cattle rancher in Wyoming, who uses his AR-15 as defense against Wolves and Coyotes, to give up his weapon because some gang-banger in NY City or East LA might use one to shoot up another gang. If I'm that rancher, I want my AR-15 and as many 30-round magazines as I can carry, with a bazooka and grenades for backup, if there is any chance I'll run into a pack of Wolves on my ride around my fence.

Maybe what I'm arguing for is against the basic freedoms guaranteed by our Bill of Rights. NY City, Chicago, Detroit, LA, etc., are different animals. Maybe they should have the rights to tighter gun restrictions, including stop and frisk and house-to-house searches for guns. Maybe you should have to be searched before entering NY State from other states. That is the freedom you would give up by living in or visiting those puke holes. It just doesn't equate to most of the rest of the country.