Thank You, rangiku ! Thats really a selfless job and a lot of devotion...priests, nuns and monks are lucky to have their orders to provide food and shelter for them...but not AOS judges they fend for their own??!!
And, Glen...a judge needs to be wealthy; to not get reimbursed for a lot of stuff means a judge must have cash on hand to be able to travel at a drop of a hat to anywhere the show is...
Hmmm very interesting:

but I know some will hate me for this:

are judges supposed to have college degrees? or at least 3 units in biology or botany in college?

Thank You, rangiku ! Thats really a selfless job and a lot of devotion...priests, nuns and monks are lucky to have their orders to provide food and shelter for them...but not AOS judges they fend for their own??!!
And, Glen...a judge needs to be wealthy; to not get reimbursed for a lot of stuff means a judge must have cash on hand to be able to travel at a drop of a hat to anywhere the show is...
Hmmm very interesting:

but I know some will hate me for this:

are judges supposed to have college degrees? or at least 3 units in biology or botany in college?

Why would you expect that they should. The judging of orchids for awards is based on a subjective criteria, is the flower you are judging an improvement over one or both parents. To figure that out you need not have a degree in biology or botany, what you need is an intimate knowledge of the species in the plants lineage and a good record of the measurements of the flowers of the same cross
that have been awarded previously.

The flowers are scored individually by each judge on the judging team, are averaged out and on the scale that was in the original post, if the score is not 75 points or above, no award is given.

Most Judges have been growing orchids for many years and many are considered experts in their chosen genera.

You list yourself as an AOS member, they have wonderful literature on a multitude of what it and it's Judging prgram does. If I were you I would become involved with my local Orchid Society and maybe even start attending the Judging session at the local Judging Center.

As to a Judge being wealthy, they sure can't be poor to obligate themselves to the financial burden. Plus there is a whole lot more that they are obligated to that I haven't even touched on, so no they are not a bunch of hacks who got their title by social clout. They dedicated themselves to the conservation and advancement of orchids over many decades and have earned their title. Were it not for the AOS and it's judging program, trust me you would not be buying your plants in the flower district in NYC because there would not be a market for them, nor would you be able to afford them. In answer to your question about financial support for research and conservation, the AOS gives out plenty of research and conservations grants.

Knowing all this now, you can understand why people could have been upset by what appeared to be a flippant attitude and lack of respect due to the Organization and the Judges who work so hard for it.

Judging programmes in other countries are pretty much just as rigorous as in America. I was talking to a student judge at our OS last week, and the number of exams and other things you have to do is staggering. What's really crazy about orchid judging is that you're expected to be able to do it for the whole of the orchidacea *and* all the hybrids. I asked him if he thought one day soon there would be so much knowledge required that it would be split into different specialities, but he said "no, never!". The breadth and depth of knowledge required is staggering, impressive and shows an incredible degree of passion and dedication from those who choose to do it.

As for what good the awards do, they let you have a pretty good idea of what flowers are considered "good" - this is somewhat subjective, as I'm not convinced that what you really want in the world is a flat circle on the end of a stem, but in many (all?) groups, that's the ideal. Of course, striving for awards gives hybridisers a goal to work towards and pushes the entire enterprise forward, so it's a pretty positive thing.

Judges form the core of the orchid community and probably the bulk of the people that give talks at OS meetings, most for very modest expenses, if anything. They generally freely share their knowledge (at least in my experience here).

well...you cant blame me...I have never met any judge in person...I thought they get to hang out with the AOS functions and balls...like attenting the Ball with Queen Elizabeth for the Royal Horticultural Society as I saw on TV...I will take your advice and go to shows and get to meet judges and get involved with some judging so I will know what this is all about.

"flippant" is a new word I learned, Glen LOL...Im sorry I made Miss Molly flip and freak out on me.

Too bad, I always thought AOS judges are college graduates with Phd's...
it adds credibility and awesomeness...but hey I dont make the rules
spending 6 years of your life hanging out with judges and meticulous observance of orchids in shows is also a much better training than sitting in a class and defending a thesis...

Too bad, I always thought AOS judges are college graduates with Phd's...
it adds credibility and awesomeness...but hey I dont make the rules
spending 6 years of your life hanging out with judges and meticulous observance of orchids in shows is also a much better training than sitting in a class and defending a thesis...

It's not 'better' training, Bud, it's just training for different things that somewhat inform each other. Botanists aren't in the business of making value judgments about which flower is 'better' than another, and AOS judges don't need education in plant physiology to do their jobs. About the only time I've known judges to consult with botanists is when the ID of a species is in doubt and they need to refer to a description or type illustration. My Dad is a PhD botanist specializing in plant morphology who has grown orchids for over 50 years and occasionally consults like this (and the judges don't always listen to him). Other than that, judges aren't interested in his opinion any more than they would be in that of any other knowledgeable hobbyist.

And I was never thrown out of any forum ...in fact I demanded to be taken out of their membership and asked that all my postings be stricken out...yet they never took out any of my threads, my name is still in the roster = so how was I thrown out??!!...maybe my pictures and comments seem to be important for them...

Bud - I've resisted the urge to comment when I see some of your posts but I can't stay quiet this time. No, you weren't thrown off that other forum...you left because you got tired of people correcting your mis-information. And, I'm being very conservative in my description of what took place. Let's just say that I can see your...uh...dissertations on AOS, Kews, and RHS have continued over here.

It's obvious to me that you enjoy doing research so why don't you spend a little time on the AOS site and look at what all goes into being a judge. And, spend some time reviewing all the good that the organization does. It really is interesting.

Lastly, I'm sure you mean well when you are making your posts on plant culture but just regurgitating what you find when you google is not necessarily helpful. There is a good deal of incorrect info on the web...nothing beats real life experience. And, I'm not talking having the plant for 15 minutes...I'm talking growing that plant over an extended period of time.

Botanists aren't in the business of making value judgments about which flower is 'better' than another, and AOS judges don't need education in plant physiology to do their jobs.

--Nat

Perfect statement. In many respects as another poster mentioned AOS judging is not much different from Dog or Horse judging. Judges are doing just that judging based on a set criteria and precedent. For instance breed standard for a boxer indicates a docked tail - which is a obvious alteration but perfectly acceptable. The same can be said for orchids when each spike is staked and manipulated to show better. Take away all the support and it's like a movie star without make up.

In terms of wealth of judges, I know of many judges that offset the cost of travel by selling orchids themselves. <= this is the portion that I both agree and disagree with. I agree because it is an expensive quest that does take lots of care and often they do have well grown superb plants. However I disagree as well because it does create an aurora of a "club", especially when judging is done at the local level and at small societal shows the level of anonymity is lost especially when certain vendors set up their displays the same at every show it makes it very hard to not have complete impartial judging. (Cultural awards excluded of course - as a well grown plant is a well grown plant and there is very little disputing that)

It doesn't help when you hear a long time grower (who was a judge) say "another award, crap that's another fee, but if I don't register it then they will stop giving them to me." then others agreed.

Of course this doesn't deter me, I still welcome any recognition. However IMO I would rather win the Best of Show then get an award (heck I'd rather have both )

Despite the faults Judges do deserve respect though. They do invest a lot of time and effort and perhaps when I stay in one place long enough I would even consider joining the ranks.

Side note for the beginners out there - There are countless stories (all true) of people rescuing orchids from the dumpsters of their local Lowes/ Grocery Store, getting an award the next year or a few years later. So don't think that you have to buy the progeny of a plant with 3 generations of awards to get one yourself - any plant has the potential.

Tsuchibuta - Just one thing about awards and costs, if a person, grower or otherwise doesn't want any more awards all they have to do is mark their plants as not for AOS judging when they are registered at a Show