I find it equally challeging opening and shaping my AP flour dough at 75 to 80%. I'm not sure I'll ever get the skins round to the point I just don't get stressed trying to get a round skin. They'll get better in time.Don

quote author=fazzari link=topic=13442.msg135552#msg135552 date=1303003578]NormaAs you know, my goal is simplicity....raising the hydration to 70% has made the opening of the dough a much tougher deal. It is so soft, and one could easily open it as far as he wanted..i'ts very hard not to over stretch.. So, I'm gonna say that last's weeks dough (67%) is more where I want to be. But, as far as taste, texture etc. the dough is a huge winner. Here is a dough that was refrigerated 72 hours:John

Don....sometimes I wonder what I'm thinking about....these last two doughs I just dropped the dough ball in flour, turned it over to get both sides floured, and then just pressed it out on my peel....so simple, I was trying to do too much to it....so I pressed and pressed and got a perfect 12 and half inch pie...slid it onto some cornmeal and into the oven.This dough was in the fridge 120 hours.....very, tasty...excellent texture

John, your pizza looks marvelous. Yea, sometimes the skins just seem to open themselves. Other times........well.Don

Well DonI learned something huge today by accident. I was under the gun time wise, and so my dough was only out of the fridge 1 hour. So, what happens...the dough is firmer and easy to open, and strong enough to pick up without stretching...so I was able to stretch it exactly the way I want. this dough was in the fridge 6 days......another amazing crust...and my next experiment will raise the hydration another 2 percent.John

Great looking pies you've been making. What size are they? I made a batch of this dough last week and used some of it in a decidedly un-N.Y. style of pizza. Specifically, I used a dough ball for a 16" pie in a 12" pan, and another in a 14" pan. then 3 more regular 16" N.Y. style pies, all spread out over a weeks time. I'll be back after I download some photos.

Ok, here goes. I made this dough on Monday evening with minimal mixing and a couple of stretch and folds over the course of an hour before refrigerating. Doughs were re-balled on Wed. morning and returned to the fridge. The first 3 pies were baked Wed. evening. 1. 570g in a 14" pan par-baked with a thin layer of pizza sauce. Then, topped with previously cooked scalloped potatoes, sauteed Vidalia onion, bacon and 2 kinds of cheddar cheese. Sorry, I only got the one photo, having company over and all. 2. 570g in a 12" pan, not par-baked with sausage and pineapple. Again, sorry, I only got these 2 photos. Finally, on Wed. evening, I made a regular 570g 16" pie baked on a stone.

Ok, that was Wed. These next 2 were Fri. and then Sat. Friday's pie is Peperoni/sausage. Saturdays' is garlic alfredo which turned out a little soupy because I used too much sauce and Polly-O cheese, which I decided I don't much care for.

The cheese pizza you baked in Norma's oven (the last two photos) looks closer to an actual NY style than the other photos in this thread. Is that your assessment and, if so, do you think the oven is responsible or is it the shaping/sizing of the skin? Also, how would you compare that pizza with some of the NY style pizzas that Norma and you have baked in her oven? Maybe you even have a favorite among the many pizzas you and Norma have baked at market or even in your own WFO or home oven.

Great looking pies you've been making. What size are they? I made a batch of this dough last week and used some of it in a decidedly un-N.Y. style of pizza. Specifically, I used a dough ball for a 16" pie in a 12" pan, and another in a 14" pan. then 3 more regular 16" N.Y. style pies, all spread out over a weeks time. I'll be back after I download some photos.

EVI'm finding that a 12 ounce dough ball makes a perfect 12 and half inch pizza, any more and its iffy...I just don't like a floppy skin. I'd love to read your take on what you may have liked or not like with your pizzas..they certainly are beautiful!!!!!!!John

The cheese pizza you baked in Norma's oven (the last two photos) looks closer to an actual NY style than the other photos in this thread. Is that your assessment and, if so, do you think the oven is responsible or is it the shaping/sizing of the skin? Also, how would you compare that pizza with some of the NY style pizzas that Norma and you have baked in her oven? Maybe you even have a favorite among the many pizzas you and Norma have baked at market or even in your own WFO or home oven.

Peter

Peter, I agree that the first pie at Normas' most resembles a true N.Y. pie. I attribute this to the fact that this was the first, and therefore least fermented dough of the batch. I was skeptical of the amount of yeast called for in the original recipe. In fact, I reduced the amount to .5%, and still, I think it's too much for the style. Maybe more in line with an emergency dough. I think it's a great recipe, for sure, just not a true NY style. For whatever reason, I did not like the flavor of this pie as much as Normas' version. The later pies, however, from my home oven, were very tasty. My wife even said "best yet". I attribute this to the extended fermentation. Me? I'm not so sure. Just now, it's coming to mind that there was a fair amount of honey in there, as well. I think that is also out of place for a NY style dough. I'm sure that added to the extended and enhanced "liveliness", (considering all that yeast) of the dough, along with some added browning. The first two pies(pan pizzas) were very tasty but very doughy on the inside, as you might expect, especially considering all the toppings. To fully cook these dough, I think I would have seriously over-cooked the bottom and the toppings. Maybe a longer lower temp bake would be in order? The regular, on the stone, full size pies were very good the best being the pep/sau. combo which my wife and I thought was outstanding. Like I stated previously, the last pie sufferd from too much sauce and a cheese which I didn't like. Overall, this is a recipe that I will certainly keep in rotation. It's definitely not what you would call a N.Y. street pizza by any means. I can't wait to try it in the wfo! I think it will be great there!

John, Thanks for starting this thread. It has been most enjoyable trying these pizzas with Norma over past couple weeks. I hope you found some value in my reply to Peter above. I look forward to many more positive experiences with this recipe!

This weeks dough I upped the hydration to 72%. In my quest to make everything as simple as possible, I followed Reinhart's procedures except for I used cold water...that is the dough is mixed 4 minutes, rests 5 minutes, and is again mixed 3 minutes. I used KABF this week, and after the mix the dough is so gloppy, all I can do is take globs of it and throw it in my refrigerator containers which are on the scale, weighing as I dump. The following dough was in the fridge 39 hours, it was balled (with lightly oiled hands) 6 hours prior to baking, and was taken out of the fridge 1 hour prior to baking. Beautiful dough to work with, easy to open, very light and tender, and not as crisp as earlier experiments....baked in a 550 degree oven...and I'm guessing I could have baked it hotter...but this is where my oven was today.

This weeks dough I upped the hydration to 72%. In my quest to make everything as simple as possible, I followed Reinhart's procedures except for I used cold water...that is the dough is mixed 4 minutes, rests 5 minutes, and is again mixed 3 minutes. I used KABF this week, and after the mix the dough is so gloppy, all I can do is take globs of it and throw it in my refrigerator containers which are on the scale, weighing as I dump. The following dough was in the fridge 39 hours, it was balled (with lightly oiled hands) 6 hours prior to baking, and was taken out of the fridge 1 hour prior to baking. Beautiful dough to work with, easy to open, very light and tender, and not as crisp as earlier experiments....baked in a 550 degree oven...and I'm guessing I could have baked it hotter...but this is where my oven was today.

John

John,

I am enjoying watching you up the hydration. I can imagine how good that pie tasted.

John, now that you've pushed the hydration up to the low 70s, how would you compare it to the P.R. Classic dough? I always considered the amount of water to be the biggest difference between the two crusts and at 10ish% it probably was. What is it now? (i mean the results, not the percentages or ingredients)

Dave, NormaIs there anything funner than experimenting with food.....don't think so. This crust is softer than any I've made so far, and I noticed after I balled it, it loaded up with bubbles super fast....but time will tell, because so far the results of my experiments always get better as the dough ages abit!John

Dave, NormaIs there anything funner than experimenting with food.....don't think so. This crust is softer than any I've made so far, and I noticed after I balled it, it loaded up with bubbles super fast....but time will tell, because so far the results of my experiments always get better as the dough ages abit!John

John,

I agree with you about experimenting with food, especially pizza dough. Interesting to hear that your recent crust was the softest. I have seen with all your experiments your pizzas do get better as the dough ages.

I made the PR NY-style dough last week and was very impressed with it. While I don't think it's really a true NY-style dough, it tasted really great! I followed the recipe to the letter, but I reballed about 12 hours to baking instead of 2. The dough spent 15 hours in the fridge. It was removed from the fridge two hours prior to baking. I baked in a 550 degree oven -- started it on a 16" screen on the middle rack of the oven and finished it on the stone, which is on the bottom rack of the oven.

Pros: I loved the texture of the dough -- very tender, but still a nice crumb. The taste was complex -- more so than the Lehmann formula, most likely due to the honey.

Cons: It could have been more extensible. It was a little tough to open. But as you can see in the photo below, I was able to stretch it to size -- just not as easily as my Lehmann dough.

I think I'd like to modify my Lehmann recipe to incorporate some honey and a little more oil because I really like what that contributed to this dough. Maybe a hybrid between PR's and Lehmann's recipes would be good.

I made the PR NY-style dough last week and was very impressed with it. While I don't think it's really a true NY-style dough, it tasted really great! I followed the recipe to the letter, but I reballed about 12 hours to baking instead of 2. The dough spent 15 hours in the fridge. It was removed from the fridge two hours prior to baking. I baked in a 550 degree oven -- started it on a 16" screen on the middle rack of the oven and finished it on the stone, which is on the bottom rack of the oven.

Pros: I loved the texture of the dough -- very tender, but still a nice crumb. The taste was complex -- more so than the Lehmann formula, most likely due to the honey.

Cons: It could have been more extensible. It was a little tough to open. But as you can see in the photo below, I was able to stretch it to size -- just not as easily as my Lehmann dough.

I think I'd like to modify my Lehmann recipe to incorporate some honey and a little more oil because I really like what that contributed to this dough. Maybe a hybrid between PR's and Lehmann's recipes would be good.

Here are some photos:

MattNice looking pizzas.....please do experiment with a hybrid....you might become famous!!!! Your pizzas look like they are baked perfectly.

I think I'd like to modify my Lehmann recipe to incorporate some honey and a little more oil because I really like what that contributed to this dough. Maybe a hybrid between PR's and Lehmann's recipes would be good.

I am having fun watching you guys play with this high oil dough. It reminds me of when I was doing experiments with various oil amounts in a 62% hydration new york style pizza. I made a batch every two days and upped the oil 1 percent each time. By the time I got to 7 percent I stopped because right at that point it seemed as if the oil amount had begun to take away from the texture of what I consider good pizza crust, and was just starting to take it more in the territory of some type of dessert bread. Basically what I found was that with each percentage point I raised the oil, the dough would get more and more tender. I had settled on 6% being about the maximum I would ever recommend. Right at that level I found that it could do wonders for non bromated medium to lower hydration doughs made with high gluten flour that could use a little help in the tenderness department. I also noticed that this amount of oil only seemed necessary if I didn't have a really hot oven around. Higher temps and wetter doughs seemed to need less help from the oil, but wether it was needed or not, it did bring some nice flavor to the crust. Fazzari, I am awaiting your trials, especially as you move into the higher hydration versions, as I never spent much time doing both high hydration dough and high oil amounts in the same pizza. I would imagine there is a point where having 6-7% oil can hold too much of the water in during the bake (probably in the 70's on up for hydration), leaving the pizza with a fully baked, but too wet sort of vibe. Also, I wonder if it could possibly cause the cheese to burn a little too much because of its long bake tolerance once those hydrations and oil amounts get up really high.

ScottI think I might have hit the wall as to how far to take hydration in this recipe (especially with all the oil it also has). Don't get me wrong, the dough still makes fabulous pies. And as I ate the following pizza, I wondered how one could put into words what I was experiencing. The dough is as light as a feather, it is firm but soft, it is not the least bit sloppy, and if you fold it you can hold it straight out....that's the best I can do...the flavor is fabulous.....but, I prefer a crisper pizza, so the experiments on this dough as far as hydration goes ends with this batch. The following is a dough that was in the fridge 72 hours, balled 7 hours prior to baking, and taken out about 1 hour prior to baking.

I made a hybrid dough yesterday. I will let it cold ferment for two days, which means, I'll be using the dough tomorrow evening. Going to reball about 12 hours prior to baking, just like last time (it seemed to work well). I'll post my results, along with some pics. The dough recipe I used is below. The only change I made to my Lehmann dough is that I increased the salt, IDY, and OO amounts just slightly, and added a little honey. It is primarily with the honey and OO that I am trying to reach a middle ground between the Lehmann and PR doughs, since I believe those ingredients account for the biggest flavor/texture differences between those doughs.

As I mentioned previously in this thread, I modified my Lehmann recipe to incorporate some of the features of the PR dough that I think contributed to the tenderness and complexity of the latter. It turned out really well. It's probably more PR than Lehmann as I followed the kneading procedures for the PR dough instead of my typical Lehmann procedure. This dough underwent a two-day cold ferment and was reballed 12 hours prior to baking.

Observations:

-The dough had a more complex taste than just the straight Lehmann recipe-The dough was easier to work with; it was more extensible (but not overly so)-The texture was slightly more tender than the regular Lehmann dough, but not as tender as the PR dough. You can really see the suppleness of the dough in the photo where I'm holding the slice. It has a great contour, like a sine wave. And it still had a nice crumb.-The flavor was slightly more complex; there was just a slight sweetness which I really liked.

Conclusion:-This is a nice hybrid recipe. Maybe it was just beginner's luck, but I really think I captured the best of both the Lehmann and the PR doughs. I like it so much, in fact, that I have two more doughs ready for tonight. Tonight's pies will be a little more interesting than just pepperoni and goat cheese though.