Let's do a mind-shift. I want to challenge any ideas you have about abortion. Suspend your disbelief for a moment.

I don't want to make abortion illegal and end up with women using coat hangers, a common accusal by pro-choice folks, and not without reason. Women did have a terrible time getting abortions, so hacks with no medical training ended up killings women. Hold that thought.

If we executed criminals in the way we terminate life in a fetus, would it be acceptible to you?

Would executing a criminal by tearing them apart without anesthesia be ever allowed?

Would executing a criminal by burning them with a salt solution ever be allowed?

Would executing a criminal by wracking muscular spasms be ever allowed?

Would executing a criminal by stabbing scissors into their skull ever be allowed?

A neighbor of mine, was pregnant. The unborn child was heavily disabled. She aborted, I know it has been a hard decision for her, but it was the right decision.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32679658

Doctors are way too eager to abort. Someone very close to me was supposed to be aborted because she was "99.9%" going to be mentally disabled according to docs. Her mom told the doctor know. She turned out perfectly normal, in fact she's a stunning young blond RN now, and the world is definitely a little brighter place when she's around.

Since babies are not detected until after the first month, then what do they look like?

Is this a human or something else? Of course it's a human. It's illogical to say it's something else. It's only because the guilt and shame that we rename our babies a fetus and therefore devalue the babies' natural rights.

Some people like to pretend that a fetus is just some cells or tissue and hence not important, incapable of feeling pain, and so it doesn't matter what we do to it?

First, do YOU believe that? I bet you don't

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

You "believe" that fetuses in the first few weeks can think and can experience pain?

What evidence do you have for this? There is plenty of evidence against it.

It isn't a matter of "belief" it is a simple matter of "fact".

Also what is your opinion on the morning after pill?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462

Read the whole statement. We don't know if a baby can feel pain or not, because the only good way would be extensive tests that would be so repellent and barbaric that no one could ethically do them. And yet we abort them in horrendous ways. Quite a conundrum, isn't it?

The only sticky part between us is pain sensation. You can't disagree with the first part.

The neural tube, the formation of brain and spinal cord happens very early by 4 weeks.

The potential for pain sensation happens very early.

EDIT: Information from this year asserts that a baby feels pain as early as 20 weeks or 4.6 months. [link to www.lifenews.com] [link to judiciary.house.gov] Dr Mallot testified that:"There is ample biologic, physiologic, hormonal, and behavioral evidence for fetal and neonatal pain. As early as 8 weeks post- fertilization, face skin receptors appear. At 14 weeks, sensory fibers grow into the spinal cord and connect with the thalamus. At 13-16 weeks, monoamine fibers reach the cerebral cortex, so that by 17-20 weeks the thalamo- cortical relays penetrate the cortex. Many authors have substantiated that pain receptors are present and linked by no later than 20 weeks post-fertilization. (Myers 2004; Derbyshire 2010; Anand 1987; Vanhalto 2000; Brusseau 2008; VanScheltema 2008). In fact, by 20 weeks post-fertilization (22 weeks by LMP), the fetal brain has the full complement of neurons that are present in adulthood (Lagercrantz H et al. Functional development of the brain in fetus and infant. Lakartidningan 1991;88:1880-85)"

All abortion is abhorrent, but I think we need to have safe ways for an abortion to take place. Otherwise terrible herbal ways of creating a miscarriage will take place. Those can cause infertility and death from bleeding out (hemorrhaging).

The only gap in Holy Scripture is about a child in the womb before one month. Read back for a discussion by me about that.

Therefore the safest way today is the morning after pill. No method is good. I dislike it completely as a medical procedure. However we need solutions and compromise.

I am not a woman. It is non of my buisness. That is something for them to answer for. We have no right telling poeple what they can or can not do with there own bodies.

If you dont like abortions, then dont get one.

Quoting: Upheval

It is your right to an opinion because nature didn't give women the ability to abort - science did. Abortion uses the collective resources of the society to perform them safely. ie. trained doctors, hospitals, medicine.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32725354

As stated before, this is between them and their god on their judgment day. Its none of our business.

I am not a woman. It is non of my buisness. That is something for them to answer for. We have no right telling poeple what they can or can not do with there own bodies.

If you dont like abortions, then dont get one.

Quoting: Upheval

that is like saying it's okay for Hitler to kill Jews...it's his choice.

like saying "if you don't like jews then dont kill them!"

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23061107

I guess you missed the point when I said, "It is thier body" the Jews were not Hilter's body.

Nice try though.

Quoting: Upheval

Your initial point is true. A being shouldn't be told what to do with their body. The reality is a being is told what to do with their body all the time, especially concerning medical ethics.

Example: A person wants to commit suicide.Example: A person wishes to sell their kidney.Example: A person wishes to take illegal drugs

As you can see, all of those things are very regulated and often illegal. It doesn't matter that it's the patient's body.

But then, it becomes even more complicated. Will you honestly say that a fetus isn't a human being?

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

So I am guessing you think it is right for people to tell other people what to do with their own body? Dont you people have enough to do with your own lives without trying to regulate someone elses? This is for their maker to judge no any of us.

that is like saying it's okay for Hitler to kill Jews...it's his choice.

like saying "if you don't like jews then dont kill them!"

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23061107

I guess you missed the point when I said, "It is thier body" the Jews were not Hilter's body.

Nice try though.

Quoting: Upheval

Your initial point is true. A being shouldn't be told what to do with their body. The reality is a being is told what to do with their body all the time, especially concerning medical ethics.

Example: A person wants to commit suicide.Example: A person wishes to sell their kidney.Example: A person wishes to take illegal drugs

As you can see, all of those things are very regulated and often illegal. It doesn't matter that it's the patient's body.

But then, it becomes even more complicated. Will you honestly say that a fetus isn't a human being?

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

So I am guessing you think it is right for people to tell other people what to do with their own body? Dont you people have enough to do with your own lives without trying to regulate someone elses? This is for their maker to judge no any of us.

Quoting: Upheval

No, what I think is not material to what you asked. You asked a question, and I answered in a rational way. The rest is subject to discussion. All I am saying is that our bodies are subject to laws created by communities.

I am not a woman. It is non of my buisness. That is something for them to answer for. We have no right telling poeple what they can or can not do with there own bodies.

If you dont like abortions, then dont get one.

Quoting: Upheval

If you don't like pedophilia then don't be one. You have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own body.

Doesn't seem to work does it? Why does it only work when it comes to murdering defenseless preborn human beings?

Quoting: samanthasunflower

Nice try again but your logic doesn't work. So I blasted my load down this chick’s throat last night. I murdered billions of potential children when she swallowed. All those defenseless potential children.

Therefore the safest way today is the morning after pill. No method is good. I dislike it completely as a medical procedure. However we need solutions and compromise.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

What other sins against God and Nature must we find compromise for so that they can be safely committed?

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 30307430

We break God's law 24/7. The world is not 100% comprised of believers in God's Law. As believers, we could attempt to control unbelievers with our belief system, but we don't have that power anymore. We live in a pluralistic society. As Christians we cannot make nonbeliever do what we want.

How about you create a world where 25,000 children a day do not die of starvation (and the like) first? To bring a child into a place where they are not given the best is cruelty at it's worst. As far as God is concerned both mother and child and father will be reunited as some point, what He is concerned about is the names being in the book of life and that is done at conception so an abortion has no effect on that aspect of 'morality'. Admitting you cannot do something is less of a crime that trying to raise a child and fucking it up.

There is a sacred trust between doctor and patient. It's called the Hippocratic Oath. A doctor vows to do no harm. Every time a doctor performs an abortion, it forces the doctor to harm the unborn baby. It certainly has very negative health effects on the mother and so harms the mother.

It's that simple. We like to ignore it in society, and sweep it under the rug because of shame and guilt.

How about you create a world where 25,000 children a day do not die of starvation (and the like) first? To bring a child into a place where they are not given the best is cruelty at it's worst. As far as God is concerned both mother and child and father will be reunited as some point, what He is concerned about is the names being in the book of life and that is done at conception so an abortion has no effect on that aspect of 'morality'. Admitting you cannot do something is less of a crime that trying to raise a child and fucking it up.

Quoting: MHz

In a perfect world, we could feed all children. We live in a world of nations. Not all people in those nations have self-determination. We can't foist our belief systems on another nation. Christians can't do it because of Free Will. We can only persuade and influence them.

In our nation, in my nation, we should do more about children being hungry. I agree wholeheartedly.

I also think we should care for all children, including the unborn. They are not mutually exclusive goals.

A lot of people will never make good parents. We make laws still to protect children.

I am not a woman. It is non of my buisness. That is something for them to answer for. We have no right telling poeple what they can or can not do with there own bodies.

If you dont like abortions, then dont get one.

Quoting: Upheval

If you don't like pedophilia then don't be one. You have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own body.

Doesn't seem to work does it? Why does it only work when it comes to murdering defenseless preborn human beings?

Quoting: samanthasunflower

Nice try again but your logic doesn't work. So I blasted my load down this chick’s throat last night. I murdered billions of potential children when she swallowed. All those defenseless potential children.

Quoting: Upheval

I know you're intelligent from the way you logically write. Aren't you embarrassed to write that above?

Let's logically look at what you said. You're comparing apples to oranges. Sperm is not potential children. If you know anything about biology, you know that's an impossibility strictly from a lack of genetic material. But you're just being facitious.

A zygote and more complex cellular division of a fetus is an unborn human being though.

I am not a woman. It is non of my buisness. That is something for them to answer for. We have no right telling poeple what they can or can not do with there own bodies.

If you dont like abortions, then dont get one.

Quoting: Upheval

If you don't like pedophilia then don't be one. You have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own body.

Doesn't seem to work does it? Why does it only work when it comes to murdering defenseless preborn human beings?

Quoting: samanthasunflower

Nice try again but your logic doesn't work. So I blasted my load down this chick’s throat last night. I murdered billions of potential children when she swallowed. All those defenseless potential children.

Quoting: Upheval

I know you're intelligent from the way you logically write. Aren't you embarrassed to write that above?

Let's logically look at what you said. You're comparing apples to oranges. Sperm is not potential children. If you know anything about biology, you know that's an impossibility strictly from a lack of genetic material. But you're just being facitious.

A zygote and more complex cellular division of a fetus is an unborn human being though.

You argument is not credible.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

So it's a clump of cells probably no bigger than a sperm or egg, the only difference is its diploid. Would hardly call it murder at that stage, though I could understand for later term babies.

This society has become like Sodom and Gomorrah in my opinion, nothing is sacred anymore.lullabye for the babies

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32579126

Well hitlers mom wanted an abortion, that baby didn't grow up to be sacred. Even if it seems horrible, you could be preventing millions of more bad people from coming into the world.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32547856

There were 1.2 million abortions in the USA last year. Hitler was one person. Would you kill 1.2 million to ensure that Hitler wasn't born?

Your argument is not logical and is morally repugnant. It's far worse than anything Mao Zedong dreamt up in the purges, and those were far worse than Hitler.

How many wonderful scientists, artists, poets, musicians, etc were not born?

The ugly aspect of those statistics is there a much higher percentage from certain ethnic groups. In a way it's a genocide of those ethnic groups. [link to www.abort73.com] A very high percentage of minority children are aborted."abortion kills minority children at more than 3 times the rate of non-Hispanic, white children. The rate is even worse for black children"

"...black women make up 12.3% of the female population in America2, but accounted for 36.4% of all U.S. abortions in 20063 – that according to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The Guttmacher Institute (AGI) puts the percentage of black abortions at 30% of the U.S. total"

In my opinion it is much worse than murder. A person who was murdered had the chance to experience life. Taking that away from a person to be is maybe the worst thing you can do to another living being.

If you don't like pedophilia then don't be one. You have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own body.

Doesn't seem to work does it? Why does it only work when it comes to murdering defenseless preborn human beings?

Quoting: samanthasunflower

Nice try again but your logic doesn't work. So I blasted my load down this chick’s throat last night. I murdered billions of potential children when she swallowed. All those defenseless potential children.

Quoting: Upheval

I know you're intelligent from the way you logically write. Aren't you embarrassed to write that above?

Let's logically look at what you said. You're comparing apples to oranges. Sperm is not potential children. If you know anything about biology, you know that's an impossibility strictly from a lack of genetic material. But you're just being facitious.

A zygote and more complex cellular division of a fetus is an unborn human being though.

You argument is not credible.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

So it's a clump of cells probably no bigger than a sperm or egg, the only difference is its diploid. Would hardly call it murder at that stage, though I could understand for later term babies.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32547856

OK, let's debate that. If something is small, then it has less worth? I've demonstrated the complexity of life in a fetus in the first trimester (3 months). In fact it displays complexity almost immediately but especially by four weeks.

So is a little person or a dwarf worth less than a taller person. Of course not. Those kinds of ideas are repugnant in a moral society.

Look at what a fetus looks like, don't hide from the scientific facts and pretend it's a cluster of cells, because no biologist or medical person would claim that. It's complex even when the size of a seed.

This society has become like Sodom and Gomorrah in my opinion, nothing is sacred anymore.lullabye for the babies

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32579126

Well hitlers mom wanted an abortion, that baby didn't grow up to be sacred. Even if it seems horrible, you could be preventing millions of more bad people from coming into the world.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32547856

There were 1.2 million abortions in the USA last year. Hitler was one person. Would you kill 1.2 million to ensure that Hitler wasn't born?

Your argument is not logical and is morally repugnant. It's far worse than anything Mao Zedong dreamt up in the purges, and those were far worse than Hitler.

How many wonderful scientists, artists, poets, musicians, etc were not born?

The ugly aspect of those statistics is there a much higher percentage from certain ethnic groups. In a way it's a genocide of those ethnic groups. [link to www.abort73.com] A very high percentage of minority children are aborted."abortion kills minority children at more than 3 times the rate of non-Hispanic, white children. The rate is even worse for black children"

"...black women make up 12.3% of the female population in America2, but accounted for 36.4% of all U.S. abortions in 20063 – that according to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The Guttmacher Institute (AGI) puts the percentage of black abortions at 30% of the U.S. total"

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

You think being killed in the womb is worse than being tortured later on in life? Well, however it works for you.

Well hitlers mom wanted an abortion, that baby didn't grow up to be sacred. Even if it seems horrible, you could be preventing millions of more bad people from coming into the world.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32547856

One could also be preventing the birth of a child that would have saved millions of lives by discovering the cure for cancer or AIDS. The mother simply isn't in a position to know the path her unborn child's life will take.

This society has become like Sodom and Gomorrah in my opinion, nothing is sacred anymore.lullabye for the babies

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32579126

Well hitlers mom wanted an abortion, that baby didn't grow up to be sacred. Even if it seems horrible, you could be preventing millions of more bad people from coming into the world.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 32547856

There were 1.2 million abortions in the USA last year. Hitler was one person. Would you kill 1.2 million to ensure that Hitler wasn't born?

Your argument is not logical and is morally repugnant. It's far worse than anything Mao Zedong dreamt up in the purges, and those were far worse than Hitler.

How many wonderful scientists, artists, poets, musicians, etc were not born?

The ugly aspect of those statistics is there a much higher percentage from certain ethnic groups. In a way it's a genocide of those ethnic groups. [link to www.abort73.com] A very high percentage of minority children are aborted."abortion kills minority children at more than 3 times the rate of non-Hispanic, white children. The rate is even worse for black children"

"...black women make up 12.3% of the female population in America2, but accounted for 36.4% of all U.S. abortions in 20063 – that according to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). The Guttmacher Institute (AGI) puts the percentage of black abortions at 30% of the U.S. total"

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

You think being killed in the womb is worse than being tortured later on in life? Well, however it works for you.

Abortion 1) not about killing something that is just a cluster of cells2) Happens in very high numbers in the USA3) Is disproportionate among minorities (and probably a result of poverty)4) Happens when there is nervous development in the fetus even at 4 weeks5) Human beings have Natural Rights in the USA at birth6) The Hippocratic Oath forbids doing harm to the patient7) Both the unborn baby and the mother are harmed by an abortion8) Abortion is big business in the USA resulting in hundreds of millions to Planned Parenthood alone9) Abortion seems to be murder from a study of Scripture10) The methods of abortion are worse than anything we would do to a criminal, and yet it's occuring to a child.11) Many abortions happen from mutagens(toxins), bad diet, and infection.

What is the real issue? It's not that a fetus is a human.

It's that abortion is a necessary evil to a corrupt society. Abortion has happened as early as the ancient Greeks. We know that from medical accounts.

Abortion will happen whether legal or not. It did throughout history.

As awful as it is, since Christians don't control nations, only influence them, we have to compromise to get the number lower.

Atheists want to have legal means of abortion. This means they will try to create laws to protect it.

Let's not lie to ourselves as intellectuals and think there isn't a cost to us for having that guarantee. Or lie and say it's not a human being.

How about we ask women why they chose to have an abortion?Since it's a "choice" and 90% do it in the first 3 months

Do we have any data to indicate reasons for aborting a fetus? Yes.

[link to www.guttmacher.org] The Guttmacher Study in 2005 details the most common reasons:"RESULTS:The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman’s education, workor ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be asingle mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed theirchildbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents’ or partners’desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they wereunprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.

Is it possible that Christians could try to assist women in these areas, because Jesus asked us to Feed His Sheep and Tend His Lambs? John 21:17

Is it possible that the USA at large could focus on helping women so less abortions would happen by alleviating these issues?

I am not a woman. It is non of my buisness. That is something for them to answer for. We have no right telling poeple what they can or can not do with there own bodies.

If you dont like abortions, then dont get one.

Quoting: Upheval

If you don't like pedophilia then don't be one. You have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own body.

Doesn't seem to work does it? Why does it only work when it comes to murdering defenseless preborn human beings?

Quoting: samanthasunflower

Nice try again but your logic doesn't work. So I blasted my load down this chick’s throat last night. I murdered billions of potential children when she swallowed. All those defenseless potential children.

Quoting: Upheval

I know you're intelligent from the way you logically write. Aren't you embarrassed to write that above?

Let's logically look at what you said. You're comparing apples to oranges. Sperm is not potential children. If you know anything about biology, you know that's an impossibility strictly from a lack of genetic material. But you're just being facitious.

A zygote and more complex cellular division of a fetus is an unborn human being though.

You argument is not credible.

Quoting: Don'tBeAfraid

True, I was just being facetious. I commend you on maintaining your composure in regards to my vulgar post. The point I was making, all be it uncouth, was when does the intrusion into people's personal lives end? What business is it to any of us? Doesn't that person have to stand before their god and be judged? What rights do the fundamental Christians have intruding into someone else’s life? In this matter of exerting their religious beliefs on others, in my opinion, they are no different than the radical Muslims.

4/21/12 From The Lord, Our God and Savior - The Word of The Lord Given to Timothy, During an Online Conversation, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Thus says The Lord: My sons, I speak now in your hearing, for in you I am well pleased. For you have sought to understand My judgments and seek to accept My punishments, though you are in no way able to touch the heart of The Lord, in that you could endure My sorrow; nor are you yet able to accept the full degree of My punishment.

For My anger is kindled and has become a raging fire!...

All-consuming!...

An all-encompassing, purging fire,Wiping away all evil and sin from off the land!

You have sought to understand “a life for a life”, and behold you do indeed see dimly, even with frustrated eyes. Thus I shall tell you plainly: From the beginning the decree went forth and was upheld, that a life which is taken shall be repaid by the death of the guilty, and it was so. Yet in the days of Moses this was not done by the judgment of man, but according to the judgement of God, for in those days My voice yet remained with My people.Behold, all who have sinned since that time have taken their own lives, and thus a life must be given. For the penalty of sin is death, and without the shedding of blood there can be no remission. Thus I came down in the flesh, and offered up My life in place of the guilty, bearing the full weight of their transgression in My own body... A Life for a life. Yet understand this also: To receive of My life, one must also accept My life through sincere repentance; and if one refuses The Gift, then the same remains under My punishment, which is death.

Thus I tell you plainly, and though your hearts shall sink within your chests and tears shall come, it must be, for the sin of abortion is very grievous: For every fifty million babies slain at the hands of men, I shall take the life of one billion of those who dwell upon the earth, who were in agreement! For they will not repent! Behold, even I shall bring calamity upon the millions who stood idly by! I AM THE LORD.

In this one thing is the justice of God revealed:Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay...

For punishment of the wicked rests solely upon My shoulders,In which I take no pleasure at all...

Even as salvation rested solely upon The Son of Man,In which I was well pleased...

Therefore, He shall be your judge,Even as He is also your Savior, says The Lord.

Therefore My sons, stumble not over the letter of My words, nor seek to understand by calculation, but see with greater eyes, see with your heart; understand the magnitude, stare not at the letter... Look upon My speech through tears, grasp the power of My words in sorrow, look upon My face as I stretch out My hand in My strength; taste My tears as I bring death upon them, look into My eyes as I destroy the cities of men... My sons, are you able to drink from this cup? Can you endure My pain? Will your life not pass from you, under the full weight of this revelation?

Behold, man is but stubble before the blade,Grass under the shadow of burning trees in a deep forest of sin,Sand at the bottom of a dark ocean of transgression...

Yet I am mindful of him...

My heart knows each one.

Thus those whom I send must be remade, they must be transformed, they must eat from The Tree of Life, partaking also from the tree of knowledge. They must become as adamant stones, with their hearts refashioned, new hearts which beat in sync with Mine... Or how shall I send them? Says The Lord.

Always wanted to know - all those against abortion are vegetarians then?

Either you're pro-life or you're just 'selective' pro-life indicating a hypocrisy that is quite frankly bordering on sociopathy.

Don't give me the 'humans are superior' argument either - as proven for eons, humans are the ONLY species that have wreaked havoc and destruction on earth rendering the instability of the entire ecosystem.

Another element of this argument is that despite already having a poverty problem globally, pro-lifers are encouraging more of the same. As facts state - the majority of abortions are due to circumstances of lack, ultimately leading to a childhood of neglect in some form for the newborn.

Thinking society is there to help with this is incredibly ignorant of the true scenario.

Thousands of studies show that during developmental years, especially birth to 8 yrs old - an environment of lack/neglect/abuse etc paves a pathway into adulthood - rendering the person to be experience a lifetime of problems...ultimately not being the fully participating social human that they should be.

But sure...human life is precious - yet we don't seem to be able to sustain that argument for those ALREADY living and sorting out problems that already exist.

Makes no sense to include millions of newborns to the mix every year just to impede the situation further.

Being pro-life without considering the long-term impacts of such a belief is, like i said, leaning towards a sociopathic mind-set.

Of course all suffering on this earth needs to be eliminated - but preventing human abortion is an illogical pathway to meet this desire, for the reasons stated above.