So, I don't wear a headcovering. There are a few women in my parish who do, but most don't. I've worn one before when visiting places where it is expected and found it to be a gigantic hassle- if you had my mane of crazy hair, you'd understand. I also don't like to draw undue attention to myself. Unfortunately, there's a perv in my parish (not Orthodox himself) who is fascinated with my hair and comes up behind me to touch it sometimes and gushes about how much he loves it- I avoid him and have told him to leave me alone and so have other people. I have people compliment my hair a lot and a teenage girl or two have told me how they envy my hair and one even said how she loved staring at it during liturgy. This makes me uncomfortable. Personally, I don't see the fascination because I don't like my hair and it is difficult to deal with as it's curly.

Moving on- It's in scripture and technically women are supposed to do this, right? I'm far from eager about the prospect, but there's been this increasing conviction and I've been considering it. I have this fear about what other people might say or think, and I don't want to draw even more attention to myself. So, the next logical step was to ask my priest about it. He didn't say no, but he might as well have. Apparently, that's just not our culture in the U.S. and sometimes people get very legalistic about things like dress.

Right, I get that. I've seen four recent converts start dressing znius as if they were frum. Possibly overboard stuff going on there, I don't know for sure. However, I don't own skirts that long, I wear pants quite often, and I certainly wouldn't be begging for my husband to put me away in a monastery if I started to wear a headcovering. I have a hard enough time trying to fast and following my prayer rule, etc. My life is far from being a paragon of holiness. I don't think thousands around me will likely ever be saved from observing my not so holy life. You get the idea.

However, the implication was that I would be seen as a legalist, and my feelings were hurt. I don't find anything about Orthodoxy to be particularly easy- it's all a struggle for me really- but seriously? Why is this in the bible then if it is optional?

Although I hate the use of the concept of Western vs Eastern mindset, but I think looking at this concept as "optional" may seep in to your understanding of other concepts in the church. Just because some people do not have to do something does not mean it is optional. For instance many people have different dietary requirements therefore when they fast they may be less strict in food choices or may even abstain from the fast completely. Remember why legalism is wrong, because it views the activity your doing as an end in itself when the end is really loving God more. For instance I heard a story of a parishioner that said when he first converted he couldn't wait to do the fast, the reason being he was a martial arts expert and was already used to fasting and conditioning his body and in his mind he would be a professional at it, the wise priest noticing this would lead to prideful thoughts and behavior forbid him in partaking in the fast with everyone and in this way it humbled him (this story is from Turbo from the podcast Generation Orthodox).

There are cultural aspects to it, and St. Paul may have been working off of certain cultural ideas common to that era, but it's also a custom that promotes modesty during prayer. You have attractive hair, apparently, and so a head covering may serve to help not only yourself, but others as well. My wife's just bought some headscarves herself; she and I have talked about taking the tradition as a whole rather than distinguishing between so-called "Big-T" and "little-t" traditions. Just take it all in as much as you can (which is slowly at first, and at the discretion of your priest) and let God sort you out, as it were.

So, it's not truly optional and I should wear a headcovering even if others might think I'm being legalistic? I'm confused.

Don't worry if others think you're being legalistic; what you are doing is not the stumbling block, it's their pride. Don't let the judgment of others be a stumbling block to you; if it is an aid to your prayer life, then you should utilize it. If you're afraid about drawing attention, then sit in the back of the Church. Be mindful of prayer always.

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

My daughter and my wife will be attending the Vigil of the Nativity this year. I notice there is a box of scarves as you enter the 'temple' ?

Should they wear head coverings?

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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

So, it's not truly optional and I should wear a headcovering even if others might think I'm being legalistic? I'm confused.

I hate to confuse you as well, but it's sound advice. Believe it or not. It all depends on the circumstances. If people think it's too legalistic. That is there problem and not yours. Wear it. If you are being legalistic than it's your spiritual problem. Don't wear it. Or don't wear it until you get over your legalism. Sounds a little bipolar? It is.

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

I always have to wear my hair covered or at least bound in strange places because strangers are forever touching it without asking. Since we attend an ethnic parish, I stand out like a sore thumb (my hair is naturally blonde and past my fingertips). I found I attract attention either way, so I wear a headcovering. Not alot of women at my home parish do, so I did worry about it abit at first. I try to select a inconspicuous headcovering for that reason at home. (Usually a simple black mantilla).

One of my professors is a conservative Jew, and he made a point to mention something that I think highlights real legalism (meaning understanding a commandment in a purely legal sense).

Women are commanded in Jewish law as well to cover their heads, but I am not sure of the context as to when, where, and why. Anyway, many Orthodox Jewish woman fulfill this command by wearing a wig. The law is obeyed, and the contract is still upheld. That, my friends, is legalism.

I wrote an article on headcovering in the Antiochian Church, once you read it you will find the reason your priest did not openly say yes or no, basically it is because the Antiochian bishops have left it to the discretion of the woman:

The Tradition of Women Covering their Head when They Pray

For nearly two thousand years, Orthodox women, according to the words of the holy Apostle Paul, have gone to God's church with covered heads. Until recently, this custom has been kept by faithful women and has been handed down from generation to generation. It is a custom not only of the local churches, but also in world-wide Orthodox churches, whether one is in the Greek, Antiochian, Russian, eastern European, or African Orthodox Church, women in the church have their heads covered.

In the United States since the 1960s ( after the Roman Catholic decision of Vatican II that women did not have to cover their heads), some Orthodox women have chosen not to follow this custom. They have felt that it was dated custom that had no place in the practice of modern Orthopraxis. While head coverings are still the norm in the "old World", the response to this is varied by the jurisdictions in the United States. In most Russian and Slavic Churches, head coverings are still required and a woman is not communed without a head covering. In the Greek, Antiochian, and many OCA parishes head coverings are not required and the practice is left as a pious custom that women may use or not use as they wish. Many parishes, like ours, have head coverings for women who wish them but do not require them.

SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR WOMEN COVERING THEIR HEADSWe find the basis for this pious custom of covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years. According to tradition, her veil (head covering) in the Jerusalem temple was light blue; therefore, on the feast days of the Theotokos, Orthodox clergy often wear light blue vestments. The Most Holy Theotokos wore a veil (head covering) as a sign of her humility and submissiveness to God's will, which was manifested on the day of the Annunciation. Later the Apostle Paul reiterated the importance of this when he addressed the model for men and women as they prayed: "Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man [c.f. Genesis 2-3]. For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God [i.e., if anyone want to complain about this, we have no other way of doing things, this is our practice; all the churches believe the same way]. Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse. " (1 Corinthians 11:1-17)

According to St. Paul, Orthodox Women veil themselves as a sign that His glory, not theirs, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and man, and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Heavenly Hosts at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as a practice of all the churches of his time.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HEADCOVERINGSFaithful Orthodox women who choose to not cover their head in church note that they believe that St. Paul was speaking as a man of his time, and that this ordinance no longer applies in modern context. They view this often more as a custom from the old world and not one that translates well into modern life. An example given is that in the "Old Country", Orthodox married women always had a head covering on to identify themselves as married and to help them protect themselves from the elements (much like to bonnets of pioneer women in the early US history). Women who choose not to wear a head covering note that several jurisdictions in the United States no longer require this custom after 1960s choosing to leave it a practice of personal piety. As a result of these issues they see no mandate for the continued veiling of American Orthodox women.

Often the detractors of those women who choose not to veil will judge them by saying their only reason for not veiling is that "veils and headscarves are not in style" or "I don't want to spoil my hair style". The reality is that for the faithful Orthodox Woman, who chooses not cover her head, there is no spiritual value to their covering their heads and so they choose to not cover their heads.

THE ARGUMENT FOR HEADCOVERINGSFaithful Orthodox women who choose to wear a head covering (veil) believe that in doing so she recalls the image of her who was vouchsafed to carry the Savior Himself. If the Most Pure and Most Blessed One herself had a covered head, shall we really consider the imitation of her as foolish or old fashioned? To these women every outward action, accompanied by the correct Christian inward disposition, brings benefit to the soul. The action of wearing a head covering is one of obedience to the Holy Scripture and the tradition of the Church. The act is so rich with symbolism to these women. They often note that it is a "submission to authority", "a surrender to God", "an imitation of the Most Holy Theotokos as a woman who uttered her "fiat!"; "the covering of my glory for His glory", and a sign of modesty and chastity. Many converts feel that the veil is a symbol of their adoption into the Holy Orthodox Church through all of the ages and the women who are their spiritual ancestors and examples. One person interviewed noted that in all the icons of Holy women, the one common point of most is the covering of their head by veil or scarf.

Just as there are detractors for those who choose not veil, those who choose to cover the head in church have their detractors who will judge them as "old fashioned and out of touch with the modern church", or " too legalistic". The reality is that for the Orthodox Woman, who chooses to cover her head, there is real spiritual value and identification with the Church in the covering of their head and so they cover their heads.

TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own salvation in peril.

However, why is it that Orthodox clergy grow their hair long when this verse calls it a shame? Should not the same apply to them? I've always found this confusing as God Himself wore long hair as a man.

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. I have a lot to think about.

Wear a hat/scarf if you wish. People shouldn't be focusing on your scarf, that's not the point of being in communal prayer such as the Divine Liturgy. The focus is on Christ. So wear a scarf if you want or don't but who cares what other people think, you're there for Christ.

My daughter and my wife will be attending the Vigil of the Nativity this year. I notice there is a box of scarves as you enter the 'temple' ?

Should they wear head coverings?

If that is the expectation of that particular church. Here is an exception, If your daughter is under the age of the age of "maturity" then it is usually not expected little girls to cover their heads.

I wrote an article on headcovering in the Antiochian Church, once you read it you will find the reason your priest did not openly say yes or no, basically it is because the Antiochian bishops have left it to the discretion of the woman:

Thomas - that is one of the most simple, direct, explanations of headcoverings I've read. I practice headcovering and I will plan on using your explanations if I am ever questioned why I veil. Thank you for sharing with us.

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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

Upon attending the Divine Liturgy at the nearest Church to where I live my girlfriend was told to cover her head and we were told that I must stand on the right hand side of the Church and her on the left. I had assumed this was the usual practice until reading this thread! It did always strike me as a little strange...

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

So, it's not truly optional and I should wear a headcovering even if others might think I'm being legalistic? I'm confused.

Don't worry if others think you're being legalistic; what you are doing is not the stumbling block, it's their pride. Don't let the judgment of others be a stumbling block to you; if it is an aid to your prayer life, then you should utilize it. If you're afraid about drawing attention, then sit in the back of the Church. Be mindful of prayer always.

One of my professors is a conservative Jew, and he made a point to mention something that I think highlights real legalism (meaning understanding a commandment in a purely legal sense).

Women are commanded in Jewish law as well to cover their heads, but I am not sure of the context as to when, where, and why. Anyway, many Orthodox Jewish woman fulfill this command by wearing a wig. The law is obeyed, and the contract is still upheld. That, my friends, is legalism.

Of course, if the wig is a long glorious blonde one complete with natural curls, then it will draw attention, and defeat the purpose of wearing a simple head scarf.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

Thanks for that. But what does the Church say about this matter? I am new to Orthodoxy, and am eager to learn. I feel really humble when wearing one but also have a ten month old who makes it a bit difficult to wear one all the time. I have heard the argument that Mother Mary wore hers all the time and she being the Great Examply of Women, ought to serve as a reason to wear one all the time?

I have heard the argument that Mother Mary wore hers all the time and she being the Great Examply of Women, ought to serve as a reason to wear one all the time?

Probably only nuns cover their heads all the time (including the time when they sleep). Orthodox women that cover they head do it only for church services. Of course, in country a lot of old grannies wear a headscarf all the time, but it's not only in Orthodox villages.

I wear a headscarf only for pilgrimages (beside the religious aspect, it's very useful then) and sometimes when I visit monasteries. I had much more problems with wearing skirts than with head covering. For me it doesn't matter if somebody wears a head covering or not, as I said, on some occasions I like to wear it, but in 90% I don't do it just because I like my short hair (usually I use some gel but it rather does not look "rebellious"). If I were asked to do it because of a real reason, no problem. I think it's quite personal because it can be a sign not only of humility, but also of being proud.

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Btw, is it customary for women of any Orthodox country to wear a hat instead of a scarf during services?

In Greece, it isn't. Scarves aren't common either; it's mainly the older women who wear them, especially in the countryside. Only the Old Calendarists require scarves, even from young girls. But hats are virtually nonexistent, not even for formal occasions like weddings and christenings.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

I know some Greek girls who will wear headscarves when praying at home due to the words of St. Paul, but who don't do so in church because they don't wish to attract attention to themselves. We should be sensitive to the weaknesses both of those in the congregation who, thinking headscarves to be an outdated cultural thing, would judge others as legalistic, and those who avoid wearing them out of fear to be subjected to such judgment. However, this does not mean it is optional.

FWIW, in Greece it's customary for married women to cover their hair, but unmarried girls not to. This tradition is apparently fading out though. In my parish (Greek Orthodox church in Australia) I have seen only two women wearing head-scarves, and I'm still baffled by it as one was wearing a miniskirt? So perhaps this had some significance I'm not aware of.

In my opinion, if the purpose of wearing a veil is modesty, then wearing one in an environment where people would find it odd/not understand it would attract more attention and therefore defeat the purpose.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 10:34:30 AM by AustralianDiaspora »

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I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.

In my opinion, if the purpose of wearing a veil is modesty, then wearing one in an environment where people would find it odd/not understand it would attract more attention and therefore defeat the purpose.

Everything religious attracts every kind of attention in every Western country. I don't want to get into discussion about whether women should cover their head or not but this is really a rather bad argument for anything considering how secularized Western countries are.

I have seen only two women wearing head-scarves, and I'm still baffled by it as one was wearing a miniskirt? So perhaps this had some significance I'm not aware of.

It's not surprising at all. It's very typical for Russia an Ukraine (don't know about Belarus). But I didn't know it happens among Greeks too. However, of course it's a bit hypocritical. As I said, I very rarely wear a veil, but I never put on miniskirts or big decolletages. Of course, it doesn't mean I'm modest and humble woman, but I think it's more important than headscarfs, because the rules (certainly many times not written down) of the length of skirts and decolletages are not only for church situations - they're more universal.

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

I have seen only two women wearing head-scarves, and I'm still baffled by it as one was wearing a miniskirt? So perhaps this had some significance I'm not aware of.

It's not surprising at all. It's very typical for Russia an Ukraine (don't know about Belarus). But I didn't know it happens among Greeks too. However, of course it's a bit hypocritical. As I said, I very rarely wear a veil, but I never put on miniskirts or big decolletages. Of course, it doesn't mean I'm modest and humble woman, but I think it's more important than headscarfs, because the rules (certainly many times not written down) of the length of skirts and decolletages are not only for church situations - they're more universal.

I agree. My bishop says that when he visits the parish in Las Vegas, some of the Russian women make sure that they have a headcovering on their heads but the rest of them is barely covered (they are wearing very short skirts and tank tops). He would much rather they forego the headcovering and wear much more modest clothing.

Why it would be somehow wrong? I could imagine priests raising their eyebrows if teenage girls arrived to the services while wearing baseball caps but I can't come up with any reason why more traditional headhear was wrong.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

Welcome to OC.net Karaleighmum!

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

Wearing a scarf or dressing modestly is all good in my honest opinion.Most women in my parish does.

That's fine, but where I'm from, we did not grow up with the same cultural meaning. Covering the head simply is not associated with modesty in most modern Western societies. So when I walk around with my head uncovered (I am a woman, by the way), it does not mean I'm trying to be offensive. It's just I was not brought up with the same culture. Where I come from, the people in your parish would be the ones who stood out. I would be the normal one.

I'm a little bit tired of being told I'm "immodest" when I reveal pretty much the ends of my arms, and my face, and that's it.

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

Wearing a scarf or dressing modestly is all good in my honest opinion.Most women in my parish does.

That's fine, but where I'm from, we did not grow up with the same cultural meaning. Covering the head simply is not associated with modesty in most modern Western societies. So when I walk around with my head uncovered (I am a woman, by the way), it does not mean I'm trying to be offensive. It's just I was not brought up with the same culture. Where I come from, the people in your parish would be the ones who stood out. I would be the normal one.

I'm a little bit tired of being told I'm "immodest" when I reveal pretty much the ends of my arms, and my face, and that's it.

QFT! There is more to modesty than just covering your head and your body (and like you, I have very little of my body showing--I am pretty well covered except my head). If a woman can wear a headcovering and not look down on the women who don't--fine. There was a time when I did wear one. Unfortunately, especially on the internet more than real life, there sometimes seems to be a tendency to pride about wearing a headcovering and somehow seeing themselves as modest while those who don't are being immodest. That was a different time and a different culture. I don't feel that God is leading me to wear one, and most women in my parish don't wear them (including Matushka who was born and raised in Russia, though I am sure she wore one when she was in Russia). Personally, I have a lot more important things to be working on in my life than wearing a head covering. If you want to wear a headcovering, talk to your priest about it. If he gives his blessing, then wear it.

I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.

I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.

I don't wear short skirts. At my first liturgy, I wore one that was so long, I darn near tripped over it, and a lady grabbed my elbow just in time to keep me from keeling over.

My point was, when people don't wear the headcovering, they probably don't do it to get in your face about it. Society hasn't been that way for them since their grandparents' day. They don't associate hair with modesty, simply put. But you seem to have a bad opinion of them anyway. Sorry, not everyone is Russian or Greek or whomever. I guess only people who wear mantillas can be holy.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:06:44 PM by biro »

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

I agree, biro. Also, as I pointed out, Russian women come to the church in Vegas wearing a headcovering but showing a lot of the rest of their bodies. My bishop said he would rather them skip the headcovering and cover up the rest of their bodies. Just because a woman is wearing a headcovering doesn't mean she has covered the rest of her body.

I have a friend who is a monk and was on Mt Athos for 10 years. I was talking to him about zeal and Americans. He was telling me that America is a strange place when it comes to people in Church. We are to free spoken and proud about things and the zeal of American Orthodoxy is fading. With the whole "convertitius" jokes that float around, people don't see the point of wearing a head covering. He said if you were in Russia and you didn't cover your head or you wore a short skirt, you wouldn't be let into the Church. You need to know what it is you are walking into. It's God's house, He has His rules.

But you seem to have a bad opinion of them anyway. Sorry, not everyone is Russian or Greek or whomever.

I didn't give an opinion and I didn't say to be Russian or Greek. I said in Russia. Was talking about the difference between America and other Orthodox countries. In Russia in today's time, this century and you'll see a sea of head coverings, not in America for whatever reason. To say you don't need a head covering is a statement of selfish pride. Do what the Bible says, simple as that.

"But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. 6 For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head." 1 Cor 11

So if people want to complain and say it's to old fashioned and don't want to cover their head, shave it.

My comment was not meant to point fingers at anyone. Sure there are different cultures out there and most people in my parish are from Russia, Latvia, Estonia and the countries that in some was called "The Soviet Union". I am sure that there are differences between a ethnic parish in small Norway compared to a not so ethnic parish in hugely USA or Canada. Both in dressing and attitude.

It was just an opinion and not an attempt to judge anyone.

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The meaning of life is to acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit.Saint Seraphim of Sarov

In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction. Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering. One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers. What is the reason for that?

Personally, I like the modesty of headcovering, and the reasons for doing it in Thomas' article also make sense. I haven't really looked into it much or discussed it with any clergy in my parish yet, but could see myself covering in church and during prayer once I'm Orthodox.

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Live in South/East Auckland, Franklin or North Waikato regions of New Zealand? Interested in Orthodoxy? Need transport to an Orthodox Church? Want to meet others? Please send me a PM

"You have made us for yourself, Lord; and our hearts are restless until they rest in You" - St. Augustine (my patron saint)

In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction. Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering. One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers. What is the reason for that?

Personally, I like the modesty of headcovering, and the reasons for doing it in Thomas' article also make sense. I haven't really looked into it much or discussed it with any clergy in my parish yet, but could see myself covering in church and during prayer once I'm Orthodox.

In my Antiochian parish it's similar to what you described. There are women that cover the whole time, or immediately prior to communing, but there are also some that commune without covering. Nobody seems to care about whether others are covering or not.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

In the Antiochian and Serbian churches I've attended, headcovering seems to be more a matter of personal piety and conviction. Some cover, some don't, no issue is made of it and no one appears to look down on anyone else for covering or not covering. One woman in my parish wears jaunty caps that coordinate with her outfits instead of a headscarf.

I have noticed that all women who go up for communion are covered, though some do not cover until the precommunion prayers. What is the reason for that?

Such behaviour I've noticed in Coptic churches but I know some Orthodox women in Poland also wear a head scarf only for receiving the Holy Sacraments (confession, Communion) or only for the receiving the Holy Eucharist. No idea why. But e.g my priest asked me to wear a skirt at least when I receive the Communion, so again, it's connected with the Mysteries. And what's interesting, he said that skirt (of course not mini, but a modest one) was more important and then any veil wasn't necessary. It's something to show and feel you're feminine as God created you with your own features and tasks (I don't know if I explained it correctly).

In my Antiochian parish it's similar to what you described. There are women that cover the whole time, or immediately prior to communing, but there are also some that commune without covering. Nobody seems to care about whether others are covering or not.

That's the practice of Polish and Serbian parishes I know.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 05:14:08 AM by Dominika »

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Stop your Amish propaganda, please.

Amish? Propaganda?

Yeshuaisiam practices a mix of Baptist theology, Orthodox ecclesiology, and Amish mentality. It's not wrong per se however he should not present his views as Orthodox ones in this section (and a few more).

Wear it, don't wear it. Acquiesce to your conscience. If you are moved to wear a covering, do so; if not, practice humility in other ways which are not distracting to other parishioners.

The cultural import of "head covering" is no longer really in place. Empty ritual if practiced out of compulsion; rich and full ritual if practiced out of genuine movement from within by God.

That's all you need to know.

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Actually, did not the Christian Orthodox ladies, including the Theotokos, observe the covering of their hair for the above two reasons? And did not the Amish come way after the Ancient Faith?

I should have known this about the home. On the other side, it is so easy for me as a male to tell a female how to dress. Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.

Maybe the best thing would be tonight to pray for the converts that do face this problem and ask The Lord to guide them. He can. Nothing is impossible for Him.

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The meaning of life is to acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit.Saint Seraphim of Sarov

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I agree, biro. Also, as I pointed out, Russian women come to the church in Vegas wearing a headcovering but showing a lot of the rest of their bodies. My bishop said he would rather them skip the headcovering and cover up the rest of their bodies. Just because a woman is wearing a headcovering doesn't mean she has covered the rest of her body.

Lol. I have seen this plenty often. I could have told you more about her underwear than her hair style!

But most of the women at our church who wear a head covering also dress modestly as well.

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

When before your icon corner, especially during morning and eve. prayers you certainly could cover your head as an act of piety IMHO. Jewish

Women cover their head during the lighting of Sabbath candles in the home..

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:45:07 PM by Marc1152 »

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:47:52 PM by William »

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.

Actually, I have no problem with them. I think they're beautiful. I'd say a slight majority of the women in my church wear them. It's a beautiful sight to behold, I think. My wife is Episcopal, but if she ever decided to wear one when she comes to church with me, I'd have no problem.

So..nice try, but no. I just oppose theologically armwrestling someone into feeling that it's necessary or preferable.

(By the way, are you sure some of you didn't just make a wrong turn into the Orthodox Church while you were actually on your way to a LARP gathering in the woods somewhere? Sweet heavenly host, it seems like some of you just want nothing more than to play dress up, live in the past, and have someplace to vent your inner patriarchal monarchist. Don't worry, I'm working on inventing a time machine so you can go back to where you wanna go: where women knew their place, when a king was on the throne, where gays and heretics could be executed for publicly violating the Church, where you could wear 'period clothing', etc. Man, when I converted to Orthodoxy it was because I was convinced of its Truth, which is alive and beautiful and life bearing, not because it gave me a place to live out weird fantasies that seem to always come back to women, sexuality, and clothing.)

Yeah we get it, you're better than people who take head-coverings seriously. You'll fit in great with the self-appointed convertitis brigade on this board.

Actually, I have no problem with them. I think they're beautiful. I'd say a slight majority of the women in my church wear them. It's a beautiful sight to behold, I think. My wife is Episcopal, but if she ever decided to wear one when she comes to church with me, I'd have no problem.

So..nice try, but no. I just oppose theologically armwrestling someone into feeling that it's necessary or preferable.

I didn't say you opposed them, just that you're very self-righteous about people who think "it's necessary or preferable."

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

"But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: "

Okay so I normally wear a headdress to church, ever since coming across this scripture. I personally feel it was very direct and simple. So I feel good about it. Now my question is: are we supposed to wear them during ALL prayer? i.e. I find myself praying often, speaking to God frequently through out my day. Does this mean I am supposed to wear a prayer cap or head covering all the time just in case I pray? Which I do often, or is it a cover your head whn you pray more formally sort of situation? Thanks in advance y'all!

I knew a girl that always covered her head because she thought she was called to ceaseless prayer. She's now a monastic novice.

According to the scriptures, in Thessolonians, everybody should pray without ceasing - thus woman should always cover their heads.

Also the hair is the glory of women (in the scriptures) thus should be reserved for her husband and God.

Actually, did not the Christian Orthodox ladies, including the Theotokos, observe the covering of their hair for the above two reasons? And did not the Amish come way after the Ancient Faith?

I believe the women of the Dunkard Brethren wear a head covering at all times so they are never uncovered if they should happen upon an occasion to pray.

In my opinion, if the purpose of wearing a veil is modesty, then wearing one in an environment where people would find it odd/not understand it would attract more attention and therefore defeat the purpose.

Everything religious attracts every kind of attention in every Western country. I don't want to get into discussion about whether women should cover their head or not but this is really a rather bad argument for anything considering how secularized Western countries are.

I don't see how the cause of it has any relevance if the end result is still the same. If it's common practice to do so then do it if you feel it's appropriate. If it's not common practice then take that into account when making a decision, particularly one based on modesty.

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I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

Weak sexist jokes.

If you attended our parish, you would see it isn't a joke at all. Several people show up late...

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

Weak sexist jokes.

If you attended our parish, you would see it isn't a joke at all. Several people show up late...

I see you did not know Fr. Valery. More's the pity... You must imagine it said with love, warmth, and a sparkle in the eye, rather than... however you were imagining it.

That is the problem with forums like this, we do not see each other eye to eye when we write, discuss and express feelings..Even the best and wellmeant advice can turn into anger in 1-2-3 online. Sign of the times...

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The meaning of life is to acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit.Saint Seraphim of Sarov

I see you did not know Fr. Valery. More's the pity... You must imagine it said with love, warmth, and a sparkle in the eye, rather than... however you were imagining it.

That is the problem with forums like this, we do not see each other eye to eye when we write, discuss and express feelings..Even the best and wellmeant advice can turn into anger in 1-2-3 online. Sign of the times...

I should have known this about the home. On the other side, it is so easy for me as a male to tell a female how to dress. Because I do not wear a full dress at sundays in church and even if I should have.

Maybe the best thing would be tonight to pray for the converts that do face this problem and ask The Lord to guide them. He can. Nothing is impossible for Him.

You know, I have noticed a lot of the nonchalance associated with to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering is justified with the "changing of the times"...might I pose the question, who is changing the times? For Our Father is an unchanging Holy God. Is it not true that this world is in the delusions of the Devil himself? I've witnessed first hand that while things may seem simple and pure of heart and intention, those are quite often the most unnoticed of Satan's schemes to break our Divine Ascent toward the Kingdom of Heaven.

But being a convert in the makings, I speak from a fool's perspective and would love gentle, educated feedback.

I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.

So, I'm a tool of the Devil, who is responsible for the changing times.

Say you, writing on *the Internet.*

Did they have computers in Moses' day?

I did not live back in Moses`days. Sure, i`m old, a fool and not perfect either. But for the second time: this was not meant to upset you or anyone, it was just a fact that I see so often. Speaking with people online is different than having a coffee with them and talk face to face.

Sorry for causing any trouble and make anyone think, that I call them a tool for anything. It is not my intension at all.

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The meaning of life is to acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit.Saint Seraphim of Sarov

I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.

Hello Karaleighmum!

Forgive me if I am speaking out of place.

I have not been on the site in a while but there has always been some wonderful, knowledgeable, and warm hearted folks here that have helped me understand the Orthodox faith in a kind, patient, and understanding way. As you are a 'newbie' I hope you find this web sight beneficial for your growth and knowledge of Orthodoxy. Perhaps you might be best off at first staying on the Convert Boards.

“The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a place on the OC.net where inquirers, catechumens, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination.”

Peace & Grace

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

So, I'm a tool of the Devil, who is responsible for the changing times.

Say you, writing on *the Internet.*

Did they have computers in Moses' day?

I did not live back in Moses`days. Sure, i`m old, a fool and not perfect either. But for the second time: this was not meant to upset you or anyone, it was just a fact that I see so often. Speaking with people online is different than having a coffee with them and talk face to face.

I believe he was respoding to my above post unfortunately, which was not cruel intentioned either. Sorry for causing any trouble and make anyone think, that I call them a tool for anything. It is not my intension at all.

I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.

Perhaps you might be best off at first staying on the Convert Boards.

“The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a place on the OC.net where inquirers, catechumens, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination.”

Yes and quite honestly, as of lately it has made me feel not so welcome around here anymore. Being reading The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos Ware, I look for more of that brother and sisterhood that he expresses we all should be in here.

But please..do not misunderstand me, there are many great people around here, but there are also a lot of anger, hate and frustration.Why is that?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 04:54:11 PM by Tommelomsky »

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The meaning of life is to acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit.Saint Seraphim of Sarov

You know, I have noticed a lot of the nonchalance associated with to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering is justified with the "changing of the times"...might I pose the question, who is changing the times? For Our Father is an unchanging Holy God. Is it not true that this world is in the delusions of the Devil himself? I've witnessed first hand that while things may seem simple and pure of heart and intention, those are quite often the most unnoticed of Satan's schemes to break our Divine Ascent toward the Kingdom of Heaven.

But being a convert in the makings, I speak from a fool's perspective and would love gentle, educated feedback.

God Bless

being able to distinguish between [t]radition and [T]radition is a very valid concern. I am not qualified to speak on the matter authoritatively. But I do read a lot, and listen a lot, and it seems to me that the idea of headcoverings is possibly one that was borne out of specific cultural contexts which weighted the practice with theological significance. When the cultural context is gone, the mandate follows.

Your point about who changes the times is a good one. But it, too, does not have an easy answer. Because all of us can agree that SOME changes in society are evil, while others are simply historical and cultural inevitabilities.

As Brio said, you are on the internet right now. There is no scriptural mandate for anything on the internet specifically, though the spirit of the scriptures and the Tradition can certainly be applied to the Internet in a general sense.

You don't want to go down the road of ignoring historical context or it's going to get very difficult for you.

According to the sermon I once heard delivered by Fr. Valery Lukianov, perhaps the best reason for women covering their heads at church is that it trims 30 minutes off the time it takes to get ready for church, thereby increasing the likelihood that a woman may attend the whole Divine Liturgy.

Weak sexist jokes.

Not really since it's probably true in most cases.

Not in my case though since I spent a lot more time choocing proper sunday clothes for myself than my former girfriend did for choocing for herself. I wonder why we aren't together anymore.

So, I'm a tool of the Devil, who is responsible for the changing times.

Say you, writing on *the Internet.*

Did they have computers in Moses' day?

The Convert Issues board is supposed to be a safe environment for converts to ask genuine questions without fear of derision. Is that so hard?

Derision? She, in my opinion, derided people who aren't as adherent to this practice as herself. I thought I was allowed to present a point of view too, because some of us don't appreciate the idea that those who don't wear coverings are socially susceptible to evil influences. If she makes a post, can't others respond to it? The practice of hair scarves for women isn't followed where I live. Hasn't been for a long time. If she wants to wear the covering, she can. But I disagreed with her reasoning on why some people don't wear it.

Thought that might be relevant.

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

So, I'm a tool of the Devil, who is responsible for the changing times.

Say you, writing on *the Internet.*

Did they have computers in Moses' day?

The Convert Issues board is supposed to be a safe environment for converts to ask genuine questions without fear of derision. Is that so hard?

Derision? She, in my opinion, derided people who aren't as adherent to this practice as herself. I thought I was allowed to present a point of view too, because some of us don't appreciate the idea that those who don't wear coverings are socially susceptible to evil influences. If she makes a post, can't others respond to it? The practice of hair scarves for women isn't followed where I live. Hasn't been for a long time. If she wants to wear the covering, she can. But I disagreed with her reasoning on why some people don't wear it.

Thought that might be relevant.

Okay I was not claiming that that is why some people do not where it. I was just posting a thought. I am certainly not saying that I know better than others or that how I do things is better than anyone else. I really thought that forming a brotherhood and sisterhood would be sweet, but thus far on this site I have discovered a lot of sarcasm, which is really saddening. Here I was posting a genuine concern and question about the world in general and you did not need to take it so harshly. I was having a conversation with the father at the Orthodox Church I attend and we were speaking on how the culture is taking the Church away from it's ancient teachings and rituals, trying to accommodate "the changing times" which got me thinking about this topic when I stumbled upon the thread. I feel it is a valid concern not to be taken personally, rather noted.

You know, I have noticed a lot of the nonchalance associated with to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering is justified with the "changing of the times"...might I pose the question, who is changing the times? For Our Father is an unchanging Holy God. Is it not true that this world is in the delusions of the Devil himself? I've witnessed first hand that while things may seem simple and pure of heart and intention, those are quite often the most unnoticed of Satan's schemes to break our Divine Ascent toward the Kingdom of Heaven.

But being a convert in the makings, I speak from a fool's perspective and would love gentle, educated feedback.

God Bless

being able to distinguish between [t]radition and [T]radition is a very valid concern. I am not qualified to speak on the matter authoritatively. But I do read a lot, and listen a lot, and it seems to me that the idea of headcoverings is possibly one that was borne out of specific cultural contexts which weighted the practice with theological significance. When the cultural context is gone, the mandate follows.

Your point about who changes the times is a good one. But it, too, does not have an easy answer. Because all of us can agree that SOME changes in society are evil, while others are simply historical and cultural inevitabilities.

As Brio said, you are on the internet right now. There is no scriptural mandate for anything on the internet specifically, though the spirit of the scriptures and the Tradition can certainly be applied to the Internet in a general sense.

You don't want to go down the road of ignoring historical context or it's going to get very difficult for you.

I appreciate the recognition of my concerns. I am rather curious about the Scripture which could be applied to the internet, though that is not on topic with the thread.

If the headdress thing is one of cultural times, would it not have been included? Scripture does not say "according to cultural tradition" which is my main point. I don't know, I find this intriguing not just simply due to to wear or not to wear, but for the larger implications of my statement as well.

You know, I have noticed a lot of the nonchalance associated with to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering is justified with the "changing of the times"...might I pose the question, who is changing the times? For Our Father is an unchanging Holy God. Is it not true that this world is in the delusions of the Devil himself? I've witnessed first hand that while things may seem simple and pure of heart and intention, those are quite often the most unnoticed of Satan's schemes to break our Divine Ascent toward the Kingdom of Heaven.

But being a convert in the makings, I speak from a fool's perspective and would love gentle, educated feedback.

God Bless

being able to distinguish between [t]radition and [T]radition is a very valid concern. I am not qualified to speak on the matter authoritatively. But I do read a lot, and listen a lot, and it seems to me that the idea of headcoverings is possibly one that was borne out of specific cultural contexts which weighted the practice with theological significance. When the cultural context is gone, the mandate follows.

Your point about who changes the times is a good one. But it, too, does not have an easy answer. Because all of us can agree that SOME changes in society are evil, while others are simply historical and cultural inevitabilities.

As Brio said, you are on the internet right now. There is no scriptural mandate for anything on the internet specifically, though the spirit of the scriptures and the Tradition can certainly be applied to the Internet in a general sense.

You don't want to go down the road of ignoring historical context or it's going to get very difficult for you.

I appreciate the recognition of my concerns. I am rather curious about the Scripture which could be applied to the internet, though that is not on topic with the thread.

If the headdress thing is one of cultural times, would it not have been included? Scripture does not say "according to cultural tradition" which is my main point. I don't know, I find this intriguing not just simply due to to wear or not to wear, but for the larger implications of my statement as well.

Nonetheless, I appreciate the gentle response

Well, any scriptures that exhort us to be pure, loving, gentle, etc., can be applied to any interpersonal conduct, including the Web.

Also, you won't find "according to cultural tradition" anywhere in scripture, but it's implicit and necessarily is informed by cultural tradition. Many biblical scholars recognize that it's possible, likely even, that each of the 4 Gospel accounts were written with an intended audience in mind. That is why we see, for example, that John's gospel is so heavily concerned with appealing - subtly and not so subtly - to a Jewish audience, concerned with showing Jesus as the Messiah.

Culture matters. Meaning, language, and praxis grow up together with a culture.

You know, I have noticed a lot of the nonchalance associated with to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering is justified with the "changing of the times"...might I pose the question, who is changing the times? For Our Father is an unchanging Holy God. Is it not true that this world is in the delusions of the Devil himself? I've witnessed first hand that while things may seem simple and pure of heart and intention, those are quite often the most unnoticed of Satan's schemes to break our Divine Ascent toward the Kingdom of Heaven.

But being a convert in the makings, I speak from a fool's perspective and would love gentle, educated feedback.

God Bless

I understand your concern.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered. This did occur in the OCA, in the GOARCH, and in the Antiochian parishes that I visited because most of the women in those parishes were very concerned with their hair-do. Thus, to wear a scarf would positively flatten all the work they had done to prepare their hair for the Divine Liturgy. Oh, vanity of vanity.

Thus, I finally left the worldwide Orthodox jurisdictions and joined the traditional jurisdiction known as Genuine Church of Greece (GOC) under Kallinikos, where we pray the Canon of Holy Communion before coming to the Church. We simply do not have time to curl, spray, and prepare our hair for all the world to see. We come to church to worship and give thanks (Eucharist) to Christ, our Lord, God, and Savior.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.

that's a shame. that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.

Yes and quite honestly, as of lately it has made me feel not so welcome around here anymore. Being reading The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos Ware, I look for more of that brother and sisterhood that he expresses we all should be in here.

But please..do not misunderstand me, there are many great people around here, but there are also a lot of anger, hate and frustration.Why is that?

I experienced anger, hate, and frustration while I was a catechumen too. It was like the feminist people in the parish felt threatened by me because I was willing to listen to the priest and be obedient. They, on the other hand, would not obey him, but instead would publicly deride the priest at every opportunity. In fact, these so-called "Orthodox Christians" kicked out their devout priests from the parish because they did not like to be told that they should frequent the sacrament of Holy Confession, where they feared a justified reprimand from the priest.

You know, I have noticed a lot of the nonchalance associated with to wear a head covering or not to wear a head covering is justified with the "changing of the times"...might I pose the question, who is changing the times? For Our Father is an unchanging Holy God. Is it not true that this world is in the delusions of the Devil himself? I've witnessed first hand that while things may seem simple and pure of heart and intention, those are quite often the most unnoticed of Satan's schemes to break our Divine Ascent toward the Kingdom of Heaven.

But being a convert in the makings, I speak from a fool's perspective and would love gentle, educated feedback.

God Bless

I understand your concern.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered. This did occur in the OCA, in the GOARCH, and in the Antiochian parishes that I visited because most of the women in those parishes were very concerned with their hair-do. Thus, to wear a scarf would positively flatten all the work they had done to prepare their hair for the Divine Liturgy. Oh, vanity of vanity.

Thus, I finally left the worldwide Orthodox jurisdictions and joined the traditional jurisdiction known as Genuine Church of Greece (GOC) under Kallinikos, where we pray the Canon of Holy Communion before coming to the Church. We simply do not have time to curl, spray, and prepare our hair for all the world to see. We come to church to worship and give thanks (Eucharist) to Christ, our Lord, God, and Savior.

I admire your pious faith sister. I hate that you had to go into schism because of what you encountered, we need people like you in our churches to straighten this stuff out and rid the church of evil modernist ideas!

Logged

Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!

Upon attending the Divine Liturgy at the nearest Church to where I live my girlfriend was told to cover her head and we were told that I must stand on the right hand side of the Church and her on the left. I had assumed this was the usual practice until reading this thread! It did always strike me as a little strange...

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.

that's a shame. that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.

i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.

In regards to headcoverings, why does everyone seem to forget St. Paul's last words in regards to the issue? "But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God." I don't entirely understand what he means, but it seems to be indicating that if contention is brought due to the headcoverings issue, then the Churches should individually judge when and when not to require a woman to wear a headcovering. In which case, I'd say, why are headcoverings such a big issue to some people? Why not just allow the individual jurisdictions handle it in a way they see fit for their parishioners?

Yes and quite honestly, as of lately it has made me feel not so welcome around here anymore. Being reading The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos Ware, I look for more of that brother and sisterhood that he expresses we all should be in here.

But please..do not misunderstand me, there are many great people around here, but there are also a lot of anger, hate and frustration.Why is that?

I experienced anger, hate, and frustration while I was a catechumen too. It was like the feminist people in the parish felt threatened by me because I was willing to listen to the priest and be obedient. They, on the other hand, would not obey him, but instead would publicly deride the priest at every opportunity. In fact, these so-called "Orthodox Christians" kicked out their devout priests from the parish because they did not like to be told that they should frequent the sacrament of Holy Confession, where they feared a justified reprimand from the priest.

Your post made me think. A good deal too and I feel so sad for the priest and other priests that has to go through similar responses. I am so glad that my parish is not like that, even if I sometimes notices that the russian speakers are a bit sceptic, but they have seen my face so many times now, that it has changed to curiousness. Hopefully soon, we will talk to each other instead.

Here, the parishoners are also being adviced to frequently use the sacrament of Holy confession, which I do look forward to as well.So in that way, I suppose one fastly can be labeled as legalistic. But that is just fine. I can live with it.

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The meaning of life is to acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit.Saint Seraphim of Sarov

So, I'm a tool of the Devil, who is responsible for the changing times.

Say you, writing on *the Internet.*

Did they have computers in Moses' day?

The Convert Issues board is supposed to be a safe environment for converts to ask genuine questions without fear of derision. Is that so hard?

Derision? She, in my opinion, derided people who aren't as adherent to this practice as herself. I thought I was allowed to present a point of view too, because some of us don't appreciate the idea that those who don't wear coverings are socially susceptible to evil influences. If she makes a post, can't others respond to it? The practice of hair scarves for women isn't followed where I live. Hasn't been for a long time. If she wants to wear the covering, she can. But I disagreed with her reasoning on why some people don't wear it.

Thought that might be relevant.

Seeing that your current warning is precisely for exceeding the bounds of what is appropriate for you, a non-Orthodox Christian, to post on this Convert Issues section, I would think you'd be more careful to not get into any arguments with anyone here. What you are doing here on this thread borders on more of the same conduct that got you warned before, and if it continues, you will likely draw for yourself some time on post moderation. Again, referring back to the recently published board guidelines, only discussion without debate or polemics is permitted on Convert Issues, and only from the Orthodox point of view. Here you are permitted to clarify misconceptions about your faith, but you are not permitted to preach your faith or argue against the Orthodox faith. If you continue with your growing hostility on this section, you will be placed on post moderation, and your offending posts will be moved off this thread to a more appropriate location.

I hope I'm making myself clear. If not, please send Thomas, me, or any of the moderators a PM asking for clarification.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.

that's a shame. that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.

i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.

Exactly, we are to forgive and to love one another as Christ has first loved us.

I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?

I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?

I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?

Are you sayng that Scripture does or does not allow for men to wear hats to church? Because Corinthians (the same scripture referring to women) says that if a man were to cover his head it would be a dishonor.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.

that's a shame. that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.

i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.

Exactly, we are to forgive and to love one another as Christ has first loved us.

Amen sister!! I am really grateful this thread has come back to a gentle loving discussion, praise the Lord!

I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?

I would argue that it was cultural (not theological) then, and it is so today as well. And since it is culturally unacceptable, at least in conservative circles, I would think the prohibition of hats (except funny ones on clergy) would stand. Perhaps it falls under the category of submitting ot "every ordinance of man" in 1 Pet. 2:13-17? I dunno, just thinking out loud.

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I am honestly asking, not trolling: If women covering their hair is not theologically relevant anymore, then is it not permissible that men might wear a hat to church, as that also originally had theological grounding?

If some Ethiopian Orthodox men still cover their heads when receiving Communion, then why do women somehow feel they can exempt themselves?

In fact, why are these holy customs dying out today?

In the end times, it is mentioned that good will be considered "bad," and that bad will be considered "good."

It seems that we have already reached that tipping point where those who want to observe high fashions accuse those few women who want to observe the holy tradition of covering their heads and bodies of being legalistic and proud. Now who is judging who?

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

We are just having a discussion.

It seems like the minority of Orthodox Christians who are observing the holy tradition of wearing headcoverings, wearing long modest clothing that covers one's body, coming to Great Vespers on Saturday evening, going regularly to Holy Confession, saying the Canon of Communion, and even observing the fasts and feasts are often accused of being "legalists," "proud," and "more holy than the Greek Patriarch."

/rant/ Listen, those of us who want to follow the ancient and Holy Traditions of Holy Orthodoxy should be allowed to do so, but no, the minimalists will not leave us alone. Why cannot they mind their own business?/end of rant/

Back on topic. Let us forgive and love one another.

Let us dwell in unity and not discourage others from observing the Holy Traditions.

I've already made the commitment to do all of those things Maria stated and live ultra "hyperdox" when I become an adult; the only reason I don't right now is because I'm still at the mercy of a heterodox family. You can't really observe all of the fasts when you eat what your mom cooks.

I've already made the commitment to do all of those things Maria stated and live ultra "hyperdox" when I become an adult; the only reason I don't right now is because I'm still at the mercy of a heterodox family. You can't really observe all of the fasts when you eat what your mom cooks.

Actually, it is best to honor your Mom and Dad and to eat and use the things they provide with thanksgiving.

In this way, they may convert to Orthodoxy. Then you will have to be a good example, so that they do not become "hyperdox.."

How quickly we go off topic and take a meaningful discussion into the area of innuendo, attack, and allow Satan to allow anger and sarcasm to lead us off topic. I apologize for not intervening earlier yesterday but I was sick and did not go on-line to nip this in the bud. Thank you brother Peter for doing so .

I am bringing the topic back on topic again with the following quote from the article I cited earlier in the discussion on page One:

"The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own salvation in peril." (underlining emphasis was added for this posting alone)

With this statement let us return to Christian and charitable discussion of this issue without violating the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum. Any further off topic or un-Christian behavior will force me to close this topic.

It seems like the minority of Orthodox Christians who are observing the holy tradition of wearing headcoverings, wearing long modest clothing that covers one's body, coming to Great Vespers on Saturday evening, going regularly to Holy Confession, saying the Canon of Communion, and even observing the fasts and feasts are often accused of being "legalists," "proud," and "more holy than the Greek Patriarch."

aren't you kind of assuming that women who don't wear a headcovering are also concerned with "the latest fashions"? I see women at my church who do neither. They don't wear a headcovering, yet they wear their hair plain and modest on Sundays.

I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.

So incredibly true.

Also, people being late for church: am I the only one who arrives on time to an empty church and leaves barely being able to get out the door? Our liturgy goes for three hours and people don't really start arriving until at least an hour into it.

Logged

I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.

I really did not mean anything cruel intentioned. I am asking as a convert for gentle educated opinions. I did not say you were a tool of the Devil's. I am just pointing out that in scripture it says very definitively one thing, and it does not say "according to the custom of the times"

I really wish people weren't so harsh on here. I just want to learn more. I am also not saying all things of this day in age are work of he Devil. They seem to be able to be tools of his if they become a distraction from the one True purpose of life. But that is probably discussion for a different thread.

So incredibly true.

Also, people being late for church: am I the only one who arrives on time to an empty church and leaves barely being able to get out the door? Our liturgy goes for three hours and people don't really start arriving until at least an hour into it.

Same here.

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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

It seems to be a uniquely U.S thing. I've never seen the issue of head coverings come up here in Australia and the Greeks in my family and at church don't make an issue of it either. It's ironic that something like a head covering - which occurred in a cultural context - can be appropriated in good faith yet belief in The Evil Eye, which exists in every Orthodox country, is considered pagan. It would be nice if there was more respect for the cultures in which Orthodoxy developed in Western countries rather than Westerners picking what is Real Orthodoxy and what is not.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 11:26:17 AM by AustralianDiaspora »

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I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.

I want to apologize for my poor behavior. I've been kind of a yutz lately.

I'm working on it.

I don't mind a bit of spice here and there myself, when the intent is to sweeten as yours is most of the time, mazel tov!

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

This is true. And you should have seen the looks that I got from priests from other jurisdictions when we enforced this during a recent service where all the local priests decided to come to our Church where a visiting Bishop (Old Calendar) was serving.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

For 16 years, I was mocked and told that I was being legalistic for wearing a headcovering only to receive Holy Communion. Note: I was not wearing this mantilla during the entire Divine Liturgy as the priest told me that there were some feminists present in the church who would give me dirty looks should I dare to wear it for the entire Divine Liturgy or worse gossip about me while the sermon was being delivered.

that's a shame. that shouldn't be happening on either side of the issue -- the wearers OR those who don't.

i agree completely. The Lord wants us to love one another, not be cruel.

Exactly, we are to forgive and to love one another as Christ has first loved us.

Amen sister!! I am really grateful this thread has come back to a gentle loving discussion, praise the Lord!

Thanks Karaleighmum.

Bringing this thread back on topic once again.

Can women who choose to wear a headcovering be treated with Christian love and respect?Actually, if one considers the vast expanse of Russia, the majority of women in the Orthodox Church do cover their heads. America is not the norm.

This is true. And you should have seen the looks that I got from priests from other jurisdictions when we enforced this during a recent service where all the local priests decided to come to our Church where a visiting Bishop (Old Calendar) was serving.

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11New King James Version (NKJV)11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11New King James Version (NKJV)11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."

But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11New King James Version (NKJV)11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."

But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?

The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures. Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.

Why do people have to debate so much on these issues. You are turning these issues into gods and are worshiping them.

Love the Lord, love each other, worry about your own sins and cast your worries at the feet of the Lord. If you have such worries about wearing a head-covering, present it to the Lord. If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know.

I do not think we are turning them into gods, at least I know for certain I am not. I believe we are just discussing the cultural implications of a head covering and it seems to me that cultural decisions have more jurisdiction over the issue than the Word we were given to abide by.

"If He want's you to wear one, He will let you know."

He did: "1 Corinthians 11New King James Version (NKJV)11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Head Coverings

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God."

But was the word of Scripture written in a vacuum, or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?

The Orthodox Christian Church has always and in all places urged women to cover their heads from the beginning of Christianity. Unfortunately, the modernists of the 20th century have urged women to free themselves sexually, and thus to stop wearing the headcovering, which is a sign of modesty.

Even St. Nectarios of Aegina in the early 20th century lamented the changes wrought by his priestly contemporaries to change the priestly appearance by the removal of facial hair and the cessation of the frock by priests. These highly educated innovative modernists and ecumenists, including the freemason Patriarch Meletius, urged the wearing of either business suits or the Roman collar by priests.

In other words, all forms of modest apparel in men and women have now been shunned, and the Scriptures that advocate modesty have been questioned as not representing our Sacred and Holy Traditions.

Also appalling is the use of big "T" and little "t" for our Sacred Traditions, as such has crept in from Roman Catholicism and is not part of Holy Orthodoxy. We see the fruit of this insidious modernism today with the fashion industry creating more and more revealing garments that would make most nuns and the Most Holy Theotokos weep.

Please keep to the topic at hand, and avoid such polemics to disparage the reading and the keeping of our Sacred Scriptures.

Our catechumens and inquirers do not need to be harassed for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions such as the wearing of headcoverings and modest dress, especially if their priests have urged them to keep these Holy Traditions.

No one is harassing our converts for wanting to keep our Holy Traditions, Maria. The question of what constitutes those Holy Traditions, though, is not as clear as you think, and many of our converts recognize that.

BTW, you never answered my question. Were the Scriptures written in a vacuum or dropped on us whole and intact from the sky?

I personally don't believe in the "Big-T/Little-t" distinction; that makes really no sense and has no basis in the history of the Church. However, my thoughts are that the issue should be left to the discernment of the convert's Bishop and/or spiritual father; what do they believe is appropriate for them at the time? etc. Ultimately, the intention of why a convert would want to wear a headcovering is what matters. If it is out of true zeal, then--as Maria stated--why hinder her? What's so wrong with wanting to adhere to the Church in all aspects? If--however--it is rooted in Hyperdox Herman-like pride, then, it is probably up to her spiritual father to handle the issue.

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree. Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them. With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings. I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police. That is God's and the priest's job, not mine. I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person. If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree. Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them. With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings. I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police. That is God's and the priest's job, not mine. I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person. If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.

Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.

Should she dress like a harlot? Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.

But it is not "associated with harlotry" now in any part of the U.S. that I am aware of. Do you know of some place where ladies who have their hair visible are assumed to be selling their favours?

Which "recent past" are you thinking of, please? And what countries/cultures? This was/is not a universal and it certainly has not be "associated with harlotry" in my life time in the United States, nor in my mother's time and she is 90 1/2In many parts of America and other parts of the world headgear has many meanings.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:56:32 PM by Ebor »

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree. Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them. With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings. I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police. That is God's and the priest's job, not mine. I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person. If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.

Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.

Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

^ In the end, though, I guess the question of the value of head coverings per se is not the question raised in the OP.

Are converts who wear head coverings legalists? I guess it depends on the motivations of each individual convert, and from that we cannot make any generalizations.

I agree. Are we doing it with true humility and seeing other people as probably seeing others as better than ourselves or are we thinking about how humble we are by wearing them while thinking that we are better and more holy than those not wearing them and wondering why they aren't following our own example and wearing them. With all due respect, if it is out of the latter, you may be better off not wearing a headcovering. Unfortunately, at least on the internet, I seem to see at least some of the second. I haven't noticed that in my parish where we do have a few that wear headcoverings. I have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to be the headcovering police, the crossing yourself police, the fasting police, or any other kind of police. That is God's and the priest's job, not mine. I am discovering that if I have a problem with how someone else is doing something, I am the one with the problem and I need to be working on myself rather than trying to change the other person. If it is something that needs to be handled, the priest will handle it or have Matushka deal with it, if it is a woman and he thinks it might be better for Matushka to talk to her.

Frankly, I would hope that the priest would NOT engage his wife to bash women who wear headcoverings. That is one way to destroy a parish. Instead, the priest should be upholding the customs of Holy Orthodoxy.

My husband has encouraged me to wear a headcovering. By wearing a headcovering, I am obeying my husband, my priest, and St. Paul.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly. Some women are likewise tempted to distraction. It is very disconcerting to hear women gossip in church about the latest hair styles or lack of one that they see in the church.

If a women suffers from pride, giving up headcoverings is not the answer. Should she dress like a harlot? No. Yet, not wearing a headcovering was associated with harlotry in the recent past. Ladies covered their hair. Harlots did not.

Maria, I know I contributed to the drift, so let me now work on correcting my error. This thread is NOT about the value of head coverings per se. This thread is NOT about whether women should wear head coverings in church or not. What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

Of course, it is not proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings as we are not to judge any one. Instead, we are to look at our own failings.

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

No, we should not.

Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

No, we should not.

Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

No, we should not.

Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?

There was only one question, right?

Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.

I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings

really? maybe in some countries, but uh, not where I live.

In fact, I bet that some folks actually fetishize headcoverings. How many here probably think a woman is "more beautiful" with a headcovering? I think a fixation on the heacovering becomes quite unhealthy.

As I said at the beginning: wear it, don't wear it, according to one's conscience and culture.

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience. The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

In fact, my husband wishes that all women would wear a headcovering and dress modestly. I have heard many Orthodox Christian men, both young and old, express agreement with my husband and the epistles of St. Paul. Many men have expressed that they are tempted when women do not wear headcoverings and do not dress modestly.

I've heard some such opinions from men too. But I think, that it's THEIR problem (mostly). I dress modestly, but generally not head covering. So, if a man is tempted by me, it's his problem. Of course if a woman puts on, especially in church, a miniskirt, it's her fault and sin the first place.

But regarding the question, now I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Several women in my prior parish were given a blessing to wear a headcovering only when receiving the sacraments, so that we would not upset the majority of females who were blatant feminists. The priest was hoping that our example would help the parish change. But alas, it further divided the OCA parish as the loud and strident feminists would rather tear our parish apart than see a women veiled.

Yes, there were a couple of other women who were given permission to wear their headcoverings during the entire Divine Liturgy, but these women were single and were contemplating entering the monastic life. So as not to cause confusion, the priest consistently advised married women to wear the head covering only at the time the sacrament was administered to them, but single women discerning the monastic life could wear it at any time, even in the parish hall. We all wore the head covering in a spirit of obedience. Later, most of us left that sick parish, especially after the Bishop issued a letter rebuking that parish.

So, wearing the headcovering was not done in a spirit of legalism, but rather it was worn in humility and obedience. In fact, I had to have the blessing of my (former) priest and my husband in order to wear it, which is strange since St. Paul admonished women to wear the veil. Was my priest above St. Paul? Of course not, but he was between a sharp rock (the strident women) and a hard place (his dying parish).

It is not out of legalism, but out of disobedience. The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

I think that if some women wear headcoverings only for the sacraments (confession, Eucharist) and for the rest service not, it is a legalistic beahaviour. Because they think they're, let's say, "worthy" (probably not proper word) to receive a sacrament only if they cover their's heads, althoguh for the rest of service/Liturgy and prayers they do not it.

p.s.: During this time we had several inquirers and catechumens. The women catechumens chose to and were granted a blessing to wear the headcovering.

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

No, we should not.

Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?

There was only one question, right?

Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

It is sad that people judge women who cover. It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

It is sad that people judge women who cover. It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.

Is it because they think they don't have enough reverence for the Eucharist?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

It is sad that people judge women who cover. It saddens me even more though to think that a priest of the Church would judge women unworthy to receive Holy Communion simply because they didn't cover their hair.

Is it because they think they don't have enough reverence for the Eucharist?

I wouldn't know. I was referring to Maria's earlier post where she was glorifying God after hearing that Punch's priest refused Holy Communion to women without head coverings.

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Is the priest judging or simply guarding the chalice, as is his sacred duty? All of us approaching the chalice have a duty to prepare beforehand, male and female. And Orthodoxy is not a pick n' mix Pathway nor is public worship a fashion parade.

How is it some feel their autonomy must not be challenged, to follow Christ is a different path and has different values than that of the world, even from the beginning this has been so, surely?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

What this thread IS about is this: Is it proper for us to judge female converts for wearing head coverings or for not wearing head coverings? Please let us work together to bring this thread back to its intended topic. Thank you.

No, we should not.

Should not do what? Judge female converts for wearing/not wearing head coverings, or work to bring this thread back to its intended topic?

There was only one question, right?

Your response could be seen as answer to a question or as response to a request. It's not at all clear to me which one you're referring to.

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.

Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.

Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.

PtA, I admit that I am a sinner in that post. I could have edited that part out, but then I would have been truly hypocritical.

Hopefully, those who are so quick to condemn catechumens for wearing headcoverings will see their own hypocritical spirit.

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

That is legalism. Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

That is legalism. Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?

I was responding to how Punch's Priest handles uncovered women. Still pertains to covered vs. uncovered cathecumens (I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).

See, now you are revealing your thoughts ...

Quote

(I wear a headcovering; I'm better than that woman who doesn't wear a headcovering).

This was not a kind statement, but a rudely judgmental statement.

I do not consider myself better than those women who do not cover themselves. Only Christ can read our hearts and know our thoughts. I try my best not to judge them, but it is very difficult when they have gossiped loudly about me during the Priest's sermon so that I could hear the gossip rather than Father. They were taunting me. And yes, I do pray that they will be saved. Lord have mercy.

And because of this, I have left the OCA as being in their company was not unto my salvation.

Now hear the following which was told to me by catechumens who wear headcovering. These catechmens are not legalistic by any means:

Many women who wear headcoverings do so much like horses wear blinders. It helps them to focus and to control their eyes. They wear it with humility and obedience, and most importantly, it helps them to pray.

So, now we are back on topic as these simple catechumens and converts do not wear the headcovering because they are legalistic, but because they love Christ God and the Orthodox Church and want to obey what was written in the Epistles and has always been taught in the Orthodox Church from the beginning -- that unchanging Faith that was given to us by Christ through the Apostles for all peoples and all times.

Sometimes, it is hot, and then the headcovering is very uncomfortable. I sweat and my hair gets wrecked, but I reflect on Christ and his sufferings. My sufferings are so little compared with what He went through for all of us. The ridicule I have received is so mild with what Christ had to suffer.

Those who follow Christ accept His Cross, and that includes ridicule from those who do not want to adhere to the teachings and traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church.

When this question was raised in Greece I heard again and again women saying it cost x to have my hair done and I am not covering it for anyone. Others appeared to think it was old fashioned and unnecessary.

That many also appeared to think low tops and short skirts were appropriate saddened me.

Is it what the Church teaches or do we all do or own thing and then call it Orthodoxy? Surely following Christ is not a case of following the mores and fashions of the times?

Exactly.

And to claim that inquirers and catechumens are being legalistic and proud when they dare to wear head coverings is absolutely insane.

Those who issue these judgments are failing to heed Christ's command not to judge lest we ourselves be judged.

Actually those who claim that catechumens are being legalistic are the strident feminists and wimps who are Orthodox in name only. Sorry for judging the feminists and wimps, but I am saddened by this turn of events. It should not be happening in the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy and save us for we perish.

Don't you think that kind of comment extremely hypocritical? You remind us of Christ's command that we not judge, specifically as this governs how we relate to inquirers and catechumens who decide to wear head coverings, yet in the same post you judge as "Orthodox in name only" those who claim that these catechumens are being legalistic. If you're going to cite Christ's command that we not judge, Maria, then you had better practice what you preach.

PtA, I admit that I am a sinner in that post. I could have edited that part out, but then I would have been truly hypocritical.

Hopefully, those who are so quick to condemn catechumens for wearing headcoverings will see their own hypocritical spirit.

We are all hypocrites in need of Christ's mercy.

I posted my reply HERE, since what I had to say is not appropriate for the Convert Issues board.

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

That is legalism. Wasn't that the lesson on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

I do not consider myself better than those women who do not cover themselves. Only Christ can read our hearts and know our thoughts. I try my best not to judge them, but it is very difficult when they have gossiped loudly about me during the Priest's sermon so that I could hear the gossip rather than Father. They were taunting me. And yes, I do pray that they will be saved. Lord have mercy.

Are the OCA Churches in CA that bad or was your former church an isolated example?

Now hear the following which was told to me by catechumens who wear headcovering. These catechmens are not legalistic by any means:

Many women who wear headcoverings do so much like horses wear blinders. It helps them to focus and to control their eyes. They wear it with humility and obedience, and most importantly, it helps them to pray.

So, now we are back on topic as these simple catechumens and converts do not wear the headcovering because they are legalistic, but because they love Christ God and the Orthodox Church and want to obey what was written in the Epistles and has always been taught in the Orthodox Church from the beginning -- that unchanging Faith that was given to us by Christ through the Apostles for all peoples and all times.

Sometimes, it is hot, and then the headcovering is very uncomfortable. I sweat and my hair gets wrecked, but I reflect on Christ and his sufferings. My sufferings are so little compared with what He went through for all of us. The ridicule I have received is so mild with what Christ had to suffer.

Those who follow Christ accept His Cross, and that includes ridicule from those who do not want to adhere to the teachings and traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church.

The Pharisee followed the Law of Moses. That didn't get him very far. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Hopefully, those who are so quick to condemn catechumens for wearing headcoverings or not wearing them will see their own hypocritical spirit.

fixed. and now is an accurate statement.

By the way, I find it fascinating that it seems that only in Orthodoxy can statements seem so humble on the surface while betraying a profound sense of pride. It's like a game of limbo -- whoever gets lower wins the game.

Look -- we already covered this re: the op: The answer is "no," not necessarily. Be concerned with your own salvation and let others be moved to wear the headcoverings or not wear them, and judge none of them. But you are not allowed to play the martyr for wearing the headcovering while simultaneously doing the martyring of those who don't. Just chill out.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Yes, the last thing that MOST people want to hear is the truth. That is why the liberal churches are so full. The road to hell is wide. You don't have to be that exact with your steering when the road is a mile wide.

If a woman approaches confession or communion with here head uncovered, she is given a scarf. So, I guess you would say that if she refuses it, we should commune her anyway? As to your above statement, you must not deal with many converts. In the Churches that I have attended, the converts are the most likely to follow the rules.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

The Priest will not kick them out of Church for not having a head covering. He will, however, refuse to hear their confession or commune them. So, they obey just long enough to get what they want. I wonder if they think that sacraments taken this way are really of any benefit to them.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Have you confused 'needs' with 'wants'? Or have I misunderstood you? If we are to put off the old man or woman then the easiest or most comfortable route seems an unlikely Path to Salvation.

When is the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee?

O Lord, I wore my headcovering and get to partake from your Body and Blood while that other woman didn't wear her headcovering and was turned away by our Priest....

EDIT: made corrections

How often does this happen, if at all?

Frankly, this scenario is all hypothetical. For which truly Orthodox Christian lady would haughtily approach the Chalice with her head uncovered if the church has posted that she should cover herself?

And which catechumen would dare to approach the Chalice before being baptized or chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy? None that I know. So, why was this side topic brought up?

I don't think I can be critical of the faith on this section of the forum, but all I can say is that I agree with what Maria has said, and many Eastern Orthodox Christians think as she does on this topic.

Consider the implication of the icon in Maria's Avatar - the Theotokos, the MOTHER of God, has her head covered in the presence of God as a babe or small child.

I don't think I can be critical of the faith on this section of the forum, but all I can say is that I agree with what Maria has said, and many Eastern Orthodox Christians think as she does on this topic.

Consider the implication of the icon in Maria's Avatar - the Theotokos, the MOTHER of God, has her head covered in the presence of God as a babe or small child.

Amen. I, too, think that Maria has been right on with her posts, and pretty much in keeping with what I have been taught in the Russian and Serbian Churches.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Why is the supposition that young people and others need to feed the easy path so readily pushed. Among those I see taking up following a faith not a few chose anything but the easy path. When reading the Faith section online of London's The Times yesterday a lengthy article focused on the surprising number of women converting to Islam.

True we should avoid judging others, sometimes easier said than done, but challenging or pointing something out is not judging (and that when men need to adjust their dress). And assuming a fanciful and sinful pride in presuming we are better than others has no basis in the Faith handed down to us.

An example in my experience: A very accomplished Archimandrite who often corrects the reader or choir was stopped by a woman over some small error in the service. She was immediately lauded and he asked why she, and she alone had done such a thing before going on to say that all believers had a duty to correct any error he might make in serving immediately the error was made.

Why if a senior priest is open to anyone challenging him should he make a mistake in serving, cannot those who are not appropriately dressed when standing before their maker in church be challenged and accept it humbly?

A monk must be extremely cautious of carnal and animal zeal, which outwardly appears pious but in reality is foolish and harmful to the soul. Worldly people and many living the monastic life, though ignorance and inexperience, often praise such zeal without understanding that it springs from conceit and pride. They extol this zeal as zeal for the faith, for piety, for the Church, for God. It consists in a more or less harsh condemnation and criticism of one's neighbors in their moral faults, and in faults against good order in church and in the performance of the church services. Deceived by a wrong conception of zeal, these imprudent zealots think that by yielding themselves to it they are imitating the holy fathers and holy martyrs, forgetting that they--the zealots--are not saints, but sinners.

If the saints accused or convicted those who were living in sin or irreligion, they did so at the command of God, as their duty, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not at the instigation of their passions and demons. Whoever decides of his own self-will to convict his brother or make some reprimand, clearly betrays and proves that he considers himself more prudent and virtuous than the person he blames, and that he is acting at the instigation of passion and deception and diabolic thoughts. We need to remember the Savior's injunction: 'Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is a log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.' (Matt. 7:3-5)

What is a log in this connection? It is the earthly wisdom or carnal outlook, hard as a log, which deprives the heart and mind of all capacity for true vision, so that one is quite unable to judge either one's own inner state or the state of one's neighbor. such a person judges himself and others as he imagines himself to be, and as his neighbors appear to him outwardly, by his carnal mind (Rom. 8:6), mistakenly. And so the Word of God is extremely just in calling him a hypocrite.

A Christian, after being healed by the Word of God and the Spirit of God, gains a true view of his spiritual state and of that of his neighbors. the carnal mind, by striking his neighbor with a log, always upsets and confuses him, often ruins him, never does any good and cannot bring any benefit, and has not the least effect on sin. On the other hand, the spiritual mind acts exclusively on the soul-sickiness of one's neighbor, compassionates, heals and saves him...

If you want to be a true, zealous son of the Orthodox Church, you can do so by the fulfilment of the commandments of the Gospel in regard to your neighbor. Do not dare to convict him. Do not dare to teach him. do not dare to condemn or reproach him. To correct your neighbor in this way is not an act of faith, but of foolish zeal, self-opinion and pride. Poemen the Great was asked, 'What is faith?' The great man replied that faith consists in remaining in humility and showing mercy; that is to say, in humbling onseself before one's neighbors and forgiven them all discourtesies and offenses, all their sins. As foolish zealots make out that faith is the prime cause of their zeal, let them know that truth faith, and consequently also true zeal, must express themselves in humility regarding our neighbors and in mercy towards them. Let us leave the work of judging and convicting people to those persons on whose shoulders it is laid the duty of judging and ruling brethren.

- St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, The Arena: An Offering to Contemporary Monasticism, (Printshop of St. Job of Pochaev, 1997), pp. 140-142

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Yes, the last thing that MOST people want to hear is the truth. That is why the liberal churches are so full. The road to hell is wide. You don't have to be that exact with your steering when the road is a mile wide.

As to your above statement, you must not deal with many converts. In the Churches that I have attended, the converts are the most likely to follow the rules.

We deal with converts. In 2011, I attended a 8 week Introduction to Orthodoxy seminar taught by a convert to Orthodoxy from the Episcopalian faith. She taught the basic tenets of Orthodoxy. She didn't discuss headcoverings.

Consider the implication of the icon in Maria's Avatar - the Theotokos, the MOTHER of God, has her head covered in the presence of God as a babe or small child.

I thought you despise icons and view them "unbiblical".

Michal,

In Maria's statement, she was talking of an EO woman going to partake of the Eucharist uncovered being wrong. These EO women would venerate an icon (similar) to the one in her avatar showing the Theotokos who covers herself before God. I have yet to see the any Eastern Orthodox icon that depicts the Theotokos uncovered.

However, yes, you are correct about my personal differences with that practice of the church.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Yes, the last thing that MOST people want to hear is the truth. That is why the liberal churches are so full. The road to hell is wide. You don't have to be that exact with your steering when the road is a mile wide.

If a woman approaches confession or communion with here head uncovered, she is given a scarf. So, I guess you would say that if she refuses it, we should commune her anyway? As to your above statement, you must not deal with many converts. In the Churches that I have attended, the converts are the most likely to follow the rules.

Good point.

If a church has a basket in the narthex with scarves in it AND a posting at the door with guidelines that women should wear modest clothing including skirts and headcoverings, then she should obey. If she chooses NOT to wear a headcovering, then she is displaying not only her disobedience but also her pride.Remember it was Eve who showed her pride and disobedience to God by obeying the Devil.

Why is the supposition that young people and others need to feed the easy path so readily pushed. Among those I see taking up following a faith not a few chose anything but the easy path. When reading the Faith section online of London's The Times yesterday a lengthy article focused on the surprising number of women converting to Islam.

True we should avoid judging others, sometimes easier said than done, but challenging or pointing something out is not judging (and that when men need to adjust their dress). And assuming a fanciful and sinful pride in presuming we are better than others has no basis in the Faith handed down to us.

An example in my experience: A very accomplished Archimandrite who often corrects the reader or choir was stopped by a woman over some small error in the service. She was immediately lauded and he asked why she, and she alone had done such a thing before going on to say that all believers had a duty to correct any error he might make in serving immediately the error was made.

Why if a senior priest is open to anyone challenging him should he make a mistake in serving, cannot those who are not appropriately dressed when standing before their maker in church be challenged and accept it humbly?

I have experienced in the EO faith that there is a time and place for everything. If a woman is dressed somewhat immodestly, a priest (or better yet his wife) may be able to give her a paper on dress code. There is no reason to "challenge her" by calling her out and embarrassing her. If she's OBVIOUSLY dressed very immodest (like major cleavage) she can be quietly be given another woman's sweater, jacket, etc.

Now if she comes dressed like Lady Gaga in a meat suit during lent, I think that's a little bit different. Call her out.

If a parishoner sees a small/slight error during a service, or issue, nudge it later on. No reason to call it out.

I've seen priests even correct themselves after divine liturgy on an error they made during the service and corrected themselves. It was during a litnay and it was a visiting priest who commemorated his GOA bishop instead of the jurisdictional bishop in an OCA church. After the cross veneration at the end of the service, he made an announcement and said "I have a correction to make, out of habit I commemorated my bishop, and I want to commemorate your bishop XYZ right now". Most of the church sang "Lord have Mercy". Then a couple people said "we commemorate yours too".

When we people are brothers and sisters in Christ, we should be able to nudge each other rather than beat people down and get them to humbly accept corrections... Unless of course they wear a meat suit.... Especially thinly sliced lamb cutlets already seasoned with rosemary.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Yes, the last thing that MOST people want to hear is the truth. That is why the liberal churches are so full. The road to hell is wide. You don't have to be that exact with your steering when the road is a mile wide.

If a woman approaches confession or communion with here head uncovered, she is given a scarf. So, I guess you would say that if she refuses it, we should commune her anyway? As to your above statement, you must not deal with many converts. In the Churches that I have attended, the converts are the most likely to follow the rules.

Good point.

If a church has a basket in the narthex with scarves in it AND a posting at the door with guidelines that women should wear modest clothing including skirts and headcoverings, then she should obey. If she chooses NOT to wear a headcovering, then she is displaying not only her disobedience but also her pride.Remember it was Eve who showed her pride and disobedience to God by obeying the Devil.

Your example is very interesting... Because what did Adam and Eve do once their sin was before them? They covered themselves up...Okay, not theological... Just fun.

I was applying the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee to a convert or cathechumen who wears a headcovering and receives preferential treatment for doing so.

This statement of yours is way off topic, and you know it. I will not respond to the rest of your off topic feminist rant.

Back on Topic:

In my experience, converts wearing headcoverings would be rashly judged to be proud and legalistic. This goes against Christ's command not to judge.

If a convert were to wear a headcovering in many of the jurisdictions of World Orthodoxy (especially outside the ROCOR), they would most likely suffer taunts, gossip, and ridicule from other women who hold a feminist agenda. These converts WOULD NOT receive any preferential treatment, but would be shunned by the feminists.

In my experience, converts wearing headcoverings would be rashly judged to be proud and legalistic. This goes against Christ's command not to judge.

If a convert were to wear a headcovering in many of the jurisdictions of World Orthodoxy (especially outside the ROCOR), they would most likely suffer taunts, gossip, and ridicule from other women who hold a feminist agenda. These converts WOULD NOT receive any preferential treatment, but would be shunned by the feminists.

That's your experience; you don't speak for all female converts to Orthodoxy.

The last thing a convert (or most people) needs to hear is akriveia (exactness). The liberal options are so tempting....

Yes, the last thing that MOST people want to hear is the truth. That is why the liberal churches are so full. The road to hell is wide. You don't have to be that exact with your steering when the road is a mile wide.

If a woman approaches confession or communion with here head uncovered, she is given a scarf. So, I guess you would say that if she refuses it, we should commune her anyway? As to your above statement, you must not deal with many converts. In the Churches that I have attended, the converts are the most likely to follow the rules.

Good point.

If a church has a basket in the narthex with scarves in it AND a posting at the door with guidelines that women should wear modest clothing including skirts and headcoverings, then she should obey. If she chooses NOT to wear a headcovering, then she is displaying not only her disobedience but also her pride.Remember it was Eve who showed her pride and disobedience to God by obeying the Devil.

Your example is very interesting... Because what did Adam and Eve do once their sin was before them? They covered themselves up...Okay, not theological... Just fun.

Yes, they covered up with leaves, and cotton and linen are also from plants.If Adam and Eve had not committed that first sin, then perhaps, PtA would be glad to be a nudist.However, we are so tempted in this fallen world that it is best for us to cover.

Since Eve fell first, it is fitting that women cover their heads.

Okay, back on topic.

Converts who wear headcoverings are learning obedience and are trying to undo Eve's disobedience. Since they are imitating the New Eve, the Most Holy Theotokos, who wore the veil even though she was without sin, how can these converts be judged to be legalistic?

Frankly, I think that this is only a slur (a slur that I hear a lot from feminists) to discourage women from wearing headcoverings. These feminists would destroy our church. They are the unscrupulous ones.

In my experience, converts wearing headcoverings would be rashly judged to be proud and legalistic. This goes against Christ's command not to judge.

If a convert were to wear a headcovering in many of the jurisdictions of World Orthodoxy (especially outside the ROCOR), they would most likely suffer taunts, gossip, and ridicule from other women who hold a feminist agenda. These converts WOULD NOT receive any preferential treatment, but would be shunned by the feminists.

That's your experience; you don't speak for all female converts to Orthodoxy.

Are you a convert who wears a headcovering? If not, please be honest and excuse yourself from this thread.

I am a convert and I do wear a headcovering out of obedience.

When I first converted, my priest granted me grace and told me to wear the headcovering only at Communion time. Now I wear it during the entire Divine Liturgy with his blessing and that of my husband. During summer, I would rather not wear it as it is too hot (120 degrees sometimes), but I wear it in obedience disregarding my own discomfort to set a good example, per my priest.

Frankly, I think that this is only a slur (a slur that I hear a lot from feminists) to discourage women from wearing headcoverings. These feminists would destroy our church. They are the unscrupulous ones.

In my experience, converts wearing headcoverings would be rashly judged to be proud and legalistic. This goes against Christ's command not to judge.

If a convert were to wear a headcovering in many of the jurisdictions of World Orthodoxy (especially outside the ROCOR), they would most likely suffer taunts, gossip, and ridicule from other women who hold a feminist agenda. These converts WOULD NOT receive any preferential treatment, but would be shunned by the feminists.

That's your experience; you don't speak for all female converts to Orthodoxy.

Are you a convert who wears a headcovering? If not, please be honest and excuse yourself from this thread.

No to both questions. I'm here to dispel hypocrisy and to differentiate between freely wearing a headcovering and being forced to wear a headcovering.

During summer, I would rather not wear it as it is too hot (120 degrees sometimes), but I wear it in obedience disregarding my own discomfort to set a good example, per my priest.

I have no opinion towards headcoverings; that is for each woman to decide freely; however, there should not be adverse consequences for failing to wear one nor should a woman receive preferential treatment for wearing a headcovering whether at a monastery or any Orthodox church.

Frankly, I think that this is only a slur (a slur that I hear a lot from feminists) to discourage women from wearing headcoverings. These feminists would destroy our church. They are the unscrupulous ones.

In your jurisdiction, feminism doesn't exist?

Off topic. I will not respond.

Converts who wear headcoverings are imitating the Most Holy Theotokos,and She happens to be my patron saint.

In my experience, converts wearing headcoverings would be rashly judged to be proud and legalistic. This goes against Christ's command not to judge.

If a convert were to wear a headcovering in many of the jurisdictions of World Orthodoxy (especially outside the ROCOR), they would most likely suffer taunts, gossip, and ridicule from other women who hold a feminist agenda. These converts WOULD NOT receive any preferential treatment, but would be shunned by the feminists.

That's your experience; you don't speak for all female converts to Orthodoxy.

Are you a convert who wears a headcovering? If not, please be honest and excuse yourself from this thread.

No to both questions. I'm here to dispel hypocrisy and to differentiate between freely wearing a headcovering and being forced to wear a headcovering.

During summer, I would rather not wear it as it is too hot (120 degrees sometimes), but I wear it in obedience disregarding my own discomfort to set a good example, per my priest.

I have no opinion towards headcoverings; that is for each woman to decide freely; however, there should not be adverse consequences for failing to wear one whether at a monastery or any Orthodox church.

Seeing that tempers have flared up again and that the polemics are flying around again, I have locked this thread until Thomas has had a chance to review this and decide what to do with it. If you wish to take parts of this discussion to one of the other active head covering threads, I won't consider that an attempt to circumvent the lock on this thread, since this lock is necessitated only by this thread's location on Convert Issues.

I have reviewed the latest statements and now close and lock this topic in agreement with Peter the Aleut. It has failed to stay on topic and the debate has become more than permitted in the Convert Issues Forum.