Areas of Interest

I'm considering designing Free and Vichy French army lists for North Africa to use in flames of war

does anyone know where I can find details on organisation and equipment

I know the Vichy stuff was basically just normal French stuff and that they had some 'decent' tanks like Somua S-35

I also know that the Americans reequipped the Free French with American kit but that was later on and to start with they had a right mix of old French, British and American stuff – I've seen pictures of the S-35 in Free French Service somewhere in Africa

Thanks RichardI love the French army, I have a large early war French collection and am looking at a getting a new midwar army (currently have Italians for the desert) to play against my friends Germans

any more info you could supply would be greatly appreciated, or if you could point me towards any sources

couple of quick questions – what model of Crusader did they have and what's a corus gun – first I've heard of that and Google hasn't found anything

As its for FoW I was planning on making a fairly generic list that can cover most options, might even send it to BF when its done and see if they are interested

possibly crusaders as well if you say they had thoseprobably the first 2 platoons and the HQ have to be the same time (all Somua S-35 for example) but the 3rd optional platoon could be a different type

Andy, I have French forces to fight battles 1890 – 1960, this has been a long term project of mine. Vichy and FFl forces in Africa during the early (up to April `43) is my main focus of WW2 – Syria/Lebanon vs Aussies and Brits – so far we`ve fought 3 gamesOperation Torch vs Yanks – again 3 gamesTunisia (now Allied again), 4 vs Germans and 2 Vs Italians, I have about 6 more games written or in progress at the moment.

The only unit in Africa to actually field S-35 was Groupe Blinde sud Tunisienne – there was only one unit of 17 tanks, can`t be used anywhere else.

The FFL H35/39s (which orginally went and came back from Norway) were all dead (non-runners, totally worn out) by the time of Syria/Lebanon – so scrap these too.

Valentine IIIs – again only Tunisia

As far as my study as discovered no R35s were taken over by the FFL after the Levant surrendered. Though they did use Tanake, trucks and artillery later in the desert.

thanks again Richard as I said I'm trying to make a generic list that covers 1942-1943 in the same style as the official FoW lists (where you can take Dianas in support if you want to) so if they where used just in Tunisia like the S-35 then they will be included

I'm also where possible trying to stick to official FoW models (for now) in the hope they will publish my list

so no H-35/39s and no P-16s

Bf make a Laffly S15TOE so I can swap the P-16s for those

I assume the crusaders they had where crusader 2s with the 2 ponder and not 3s with the 6 pounder?

I'll have a look into the Portee guns, they are always fun, I assume things like the portee 25mm on the Laffy tricks where used?

never played FoW and i find their source books/army guides to be oddly anti-history – i ripped their Spanish blue Division one to bits, which they did NOT appreciate – but it was very, very wrong and in some parts just made up in others – all this stuff is easily researched FFS :(

Yep, early Crusaders with 2pdr

Never seen a photo of a S15TOE in WW2, doesn`t mean there weren`t any runners, Laffly 50AM and White TBC and dodge Tanake being by far more common in Syria/Lebanon. 50AMs in Tunisia too both with the Chasseurs d`afrique and Legion Cavalry.

As for portee guns – in the desert (Bir hakeim) they mounted all sorts of guns on trucks – `75s ml1897 , quad 13.2mm AA (taken off a ship). 2pdrs, 25mm AT guns (on Ford WOTs). This had been a common practice in french colonial units from the early days of motorisation in the 1920s.

In syria/Lebanon and Morocco/Algeria/Tunisia there were entire batteries of `75s mounted on a variety of trucks, some on ship mounts.

The FFL H35/39s (which orginally went and came back from Norway) were all dead (non-runners, totally worn out) by the time of Syria/Lebanon – so scrap these too.

De Wailly gives detailed accounts of the use of the H39s in Syria. They arrived via Transjordan and operated with Collett's group from the assault on Deraa and the drive up to Damascus where most were then lost to breakdowns and enemy fire when they were committed to an unsupported attack.

Vichy were the official and legal government of France at the time, trouble is with the hindsight of history and Anglo bias of many writer and commentators (and wargamers) tend to overlook and forget this………..

England was playing both sides. The particular complication in Syria is that Admiral Darlan got played by the Germans into allowing the Luftwaffe to refuel in Syria en route to attacking Commonwealth forces in Iraq which tipped Churchill's hand into invading. Luftwaffe airbases north of Cairo could not be ignored, and rather darkened Vichy's claim to neutrality.

The Luftwaffe pulled out just before the invasion, but could always return at a moment's notice, and there was no reason to believe they wouldn't. De Wailly, while building a defense for General Dentz, completely ignores the long-term implication of Darlan's screw-up. "But the Germans aren't here now, they left last week!" is no reason to call off the invasion.

Richard Baber , about the Laffly S15TOE, a platoon was in service in Largeau, used to security tasks on Sarra well, on the road to Kufra , some were in service in Vichy held Niger … but it was a colonial police Armored car … not a real fighting vehicle

Thank you Lou Passejaire that is very usefulinteresting to see that they did have a few Crusader Mark 3's perhaps I could include the option to upgrade 1 Mk2 to a Mk3 per platoon

food for thought

I accept that flames of war isn't to every ones taste and is very 'gamey' however its what people round here play and they want to do generic pick up and play bring 100 points armies so that's what I'm tailoring my lists towards even if it does lose a bit of historical accuracy

Iou I`ve since been told of 4 runners in North Africa, but these were all machines confiscated by the Italians following the June 1940 Armistice, taken from the French in Tunisia. After spending some months in depot storage in Tripoli, they were refurbished and rearmed in May 1941, serialled RE 717B to RE 720B and issued to the RECAM (Raggruppamento Esplorante del Corpo d' Armata di Manovra). They were used operationally by the RECAM during November-December 1941, but were listed as no longer in service by the end of May 1942. Not used by the french, but interesting :)

Your original question was about Vichy, so I'll restrict my comments to that. Vol. 2 of the Osprey book in the French in W.W.II has a high-level view of the Vichy army. The armored units were almost all Chasseurs d'Afrique (cavalry) units that had been mechanized/motorized to one degree or another. The french book "Les Chasseurs d'Afrique", published by Histoires & Collections gives a detailed OB for all of the mechanized/motorized elemetns of the "Cha d'Af" At the FoW scale, simply having the right number of infantry/horse cavalry elements is sufficient. One of the problems you will run into is that most of the A/C's are not available commercially – i.e. AMD 50 Laffley; AMD 80 White-Laffley. The much-discussed S-35's sent to North Africa in 1941 were only 21 in number.

a change in scale is not an option, my opponent already has a full army in 15mm and I can already field a chunk of stuff in 15mm as well

I'm sure I'll make do

to be honest my opponent doesn't know much about these things. If I told him the French used captured Tigers in north Africa he'd probably believe me. so a few stand in P-16s probably wouldn't be to difficult

For what it's worth there were the following armored cars in the colonies as of May 10th, 1940:Laffly 50AM : 28-32 in North Africa, 6-10 in Indochina and 12 in the Levant• Laffly 80AM : 27 in North Africa• Citroën-Kégresse P16 Mle1929 : 16 in North Africa• Panhard 165/175 TOE : 28 in North Africa and 16 in the LevantHow many were operational I don't know but if an opponent showed up with a couple in a Chasseurs d'Afrique squadron, I wouldn't object.

Post Torch, it really is no longer useful to think in terms of "Vichy" forces.

Vichy was invaded and overrun by the Germans within less than a week of the Torch landings. There was effectively no more "Vichy", post-Torch.

What there was, was the French Armee d'Afrique, under Darlan's political leadership (then Giraud's after Darlan was assassinated in December 1942). This was a French army of multiple divisions, backed by the US, that fought in Tunisia as part of Anderson's 1st Army.

And there was the Free French force, under de Gaulle's political leadership, that was a force of about a division in size (although it fought as two separate regiments), backed by the British, that fought in Tunisia as part of Monty's 8th Army.

And there was the French Force L, under Leclerc, which was Free French under de Gaulle's political leadership, but was somewhere in-between Anderson's 1st Army and Monty's 8th Army, having worked it's way northward from Central Africa.

The Armee d'Afrique was largely equipped with French equipment. They may have policed up whatever discards the could find from allies, but the soldiers were equipped as French soldiers from French colonial stocks. Armor was French at the start of the Tunisian campaigns, but over the course of the campaign the R35s, D1s and S-35s were lost to combat and non-combat causes, while Stuarts and Valentines started appearing.

The Free French force in the 8th Army, having relied longer on the British for supplies, looked a lot more British by the time of the Tunisian campaign. They still may have had a few left-overs from what they picked up in the Levant, and there were some uniquely French improvised vehicles (portee 75mm M1897 guns come to mind). But for the most part they wore British kit, and drove British vehicles.

The different French forces should have an improvised mix in Tunisia, but the base should be different. Armee d'Afrique should be built on a 1940 French base, and some mix of US or British stuff added. Leclerc's force was similarly 1940 French based. The Free French are by that time a 1942 British base, with some improvised (and 1940 French) stuff added.

It was only after the Tunisian campaign that the French forces were combined, and then re-equipped with American lend-lease kit, including uniforms, trucks, armored cars, tanks, and artillery.

For what it's worth there were the following armored cars in the colonies as of May 10th, 1940:Laffly 50AM : 28-32 in North Africa, 6-10 in Indochina and 12 in the Levant

I have several pictures of Laffly 50AMs (later renamed AMD 50s) and AMD 80s serving in Tunisia in late 1942 / early 1943. All of the pics I have show these armored cars in Armee d'Afrique units.

I have never seen a picture of a P16 in that area in that timeframe. My reading has indicated that not only were the P16s fewer in number (a quarter as many in North Africa), but were non-operational by the time of Torch, or the Tunisian campaign.

Sorry I'm not making myself clearI'm looking into Vichy forces around the time of operation Torch and I'm also looking at the Free French forces as they where after Torch

Although at the moment I am for the most part focusing on the free French as they will probably make the more playable army

Thanks for all the useful information chapsA few more questionsDid the French ever get given some 6 pdrsI've seen the photo of the universal carrier with a 25mm mashed to it, was this a relatively regular thing they did or just a 1 off

I'm mostly looking at the various forces that had French equipment base but with additions of British or US Kit

was there much US kit floating around din these formations before the big 1943 refit?

There were at least 4 converted carriers some with mle24 25mm guns, others with the mle37 gun

Prior to the big refit once the fighting was over the French in Tunisia only got vital bits of kit – radios, mine detectors, 37mm AT guns, some wheeled transport; plus the 6 x GMC 75 SPs and Valentine IIIs as discussed earlier.

Andy, I don't have my sources immediately at hand, but my memory is that the French received their equipment from 2 sources: the U.S. and the U.K. The U.K. equipped troops were those that were fighting on the side of the Allies prior to 11/11/42, and included the 13 DBLE (Foreign Legion). They had a mixture of French and British equipment. Those units tended to keep their Anglo-French kit, as they were often not included in the U.S. re-fit in '43. The U.S. gave the French equipment based on U.S. divisional O.B.s (originally, 7 infantry divisions and 4 armored), so they would, for example, issue enough equipment to equip an entire U.S. infantry division. The French provided the man-power, using (and keeping the designations) of the formations that had been stationed in Africa prior to Torch. So those units would have received U.S. 57mm AT guns, which are copies of the British 6 Pdr. Those French units equipped by the U.S. would have been hard to distinguish from U.S. units, except that officers and veteran soldiers would have been inclined to keep French head gear, rank markings, unit insignia, and sometimes small arms. A close look at period photos may enable you to spot those units. Note that a number of units were from Chad and Senegal. Prior to the invasions of France in 1944, the French exchanged a number of units in the divisions that were earmarked for the French campaigns so that the Senegalese and other Black troops were kept in Italy, southern France and North Africa, and White troops were used in metropolitan France, particularly the re-capture of Paris. A little unfair, if you ask me, given that French Equatorial Africa (Chad) was among the first to join de Gaulle. Albeit, recruiting metropolitan French for the armed forces was a bit challenging prior to June, 1944.

The U.K. equipped troops were those that were fighting on the side of the Allies prior to 11/11/42, and included the 13 DBLE (Foreign Legion). They had a mixture of French and British equipment. Those units tended to keep their Anglo-French kit, as they were often not included in the U.S. re-fit in '43.

French political control, and supply, was combined in the summer of 1943. All French combat forces from that point forward were supplied by the US.

That is not to say that units didn't keep vehicles and weapons that were already on hand, and maybe even scrounge up some spares to keep what they liked serviceable. But war tends to consume vehicles and weapons and ammo at prodigious rates, so from mid-1943 onwards any British portion of the total kit would be in diminishing proportions as you move forward in time.

At least that is my understanding.

The U.S. gave the French equipment based on U.S. divisional O.B.s (originally, 7 infantry divisions and 4 armored), so they would, for example, issue enough equipment to equip an entire U.S. infantry division. … Those French units equipped by the U.S. would have been hard to distinguish from U.S. units, except that officers and veteran soldiers would have been inclined to keep French head gear, rank markings, unit insignia, and sometimes small arms.

French units did indeed often keep their headgear or unit patches, as well as other portions of uniform that they could keep in usable condition.

This seems to have been particularly true of soft head covers. But Adrian helmets, while maybe liked or even prized as expressions of French identity, were less visible compared to the ubiquitous American M1 helmet as time rolled on.

Also, much of the kit that the French were provided was Lend Lease kit, not US Army standard kit. So M3A3 Stuart tanks, which were not present in US Army formations (US used M5 And M5A1 Stuarts), were commonly used in French formations. Also M5 and M9 halftracks (US Army used M2 and M3 halftracks), as well as M4A2 and M4A4 Sherman tanks (US Army used M4, M4A1 and M4A3). The US Army replaced M3 Combat Cars with M8s after Tunisia, while Lend Lease continued to provide M3s in quantity, so they were also visible, in some numbers, in French forces in ETO.

But Lend Lease also provided some quantities of US Army standard stuff, and supply lines in combat zones may also have had US Army standard equipment as replacements, so it would not be at all incorrect to use a US Army standard M5 Stuart, or M3 halftrack, or M4A1 Sherman, in a French force.

In small arms the French infantry worked hard to keep their FM24/29 LMGs in service, as it was considered a very good gun and was much preferred to the US BAR. MAS-36 rifles were not as widely used as time moved forward, as French 7.5mm ammo was not in abundant supply and was more-or-less horded for the LMGs. The most common rifle supplied by the US, from my understanding, was the P17 "American Enfield" bolt-action .30-06 rifle. I do not believe the M1 Garand was common in French usage.

So depending on your scale, there may be many ways to make a French force look just a little different from a US force. And you can easily justify a very eclectic mixed formation.

Mark (Mk 1) – I disagree that all French units received U.S. equipment, at least initially. Specifically, the 1 DMI that fought as part of the French Expeditionary Corps in Italy, consisted of: (brig. 1): 2 Foreign Legion btns that had originally formed the 13 DBLE plus the 22nd North African March btn; (brig. 2): 4th, 5th (Camaroon) and 11th (Levant) March btns; (brig. 3) Naval Infantry and Pacific btns (which had previously fought at Bir Hakeim). Paul Gaujac's book "Le Corps Expeditionnaire Francais en Italie" cites an order by Gen. Giraud dated Jan. 10, 1944 ordering the re-equipping of that division with American equipment as soon as possible (p. 25, fn. 94). How quickly that happened in fact is an open question, given that units ear-marked for Normandy or Anvil/Dragoon got first dibs. Similarly, the Goums, which were not organized into divisions, seemed to retain British and French uniforms and/or equipment well into the Italian campaign, based on photographs I have seen. I would guess that for logistical reasons, units tended to either adopt U.S. equipment, or to keep French/U.K. equipment at least by class of weapon (e.g. they would try to either retain the FM24/29 for the entire unit, or all switch over to BAR's).I agree that the French continued to use M3 scout cars and similar "non-standard" U.S. equipment long after the equipment had been dropped (at least officially) from U.S. TOE's. But the French did use M5 Stuarts in Italy.

remember I'm trying to stick to using only things that battlefront make models for hence the Marmon Herrington's and Hurricanes

There will also be options to Portee mount lots of the guns, equipped universal carriers with 25mm guns and replace the H-35/H-39s with R-35s plus a few other things.

I know its not as historical as it could be and there is the potential for people to take Somuas backed up with 75mm Autocannons if they wanted to. But I'm trying to keep things in line with Fow which give you the ability to be historical if you want to be but also let you just throw a load of toy soldiers/tanks on a table and have a laugh

Andy, based on Les Chasseurs d'Afrique, by Sicard & Vauvillier (Histore & Collections, Paris, 1999), here is the allocation of tanks and armored cars in N. Africa between Nov. '42 and May '42. Strengths are paper strengths; conditions in the field would have varied.

1st RCA (Rabat): 1x GER (1 sqn. w/ 18 White TBC/White Laffley AM 50; 1 sqn. w/ motorcycle/sidecar); 2 Mixed GEC/GEP (each with 1x sqn. of 22 tanks, 1x sqn. with R-35; the other with H-35/39; 1x sqn. truck-mounted infantry). Note: There were only +/- 30 R-35 and +/- 25-32 H-35/39 in N.Africa after the Armistice, so the 1st RCA was the only combat unit equipped with them. The 1st RCA initially opposed the American landings at Rabat, and there is photographic evidence that they lost several R's and H's in the process.

3rd RCA (Constantine): 1x GED (2x mixed armored car/motorcycle sqns.); 1x GER (see 1st RCA for organization); 1x GEP. I'm not sure how the armored cars were allocated between the GED and GER. 3rd RCA received a total of 18 Panhard 165/175 armored cars. Normally, that would have been sufficient to equip a single a/c squadron. If the Panhards were allocated to the GER, then I don't know what armored vehicles, if any, the GED received. At least some of the trucks allocated to this unit may have been Panhard 179 armored trucks. It is possible that the Panhard 179's were issued to the GED for lack of real armored cars.

5th RCA (Algiers): 1x GED; 1 GER; 1x GEP (the latter attached to 9th RCA on June 7, 1941). After the Torch landings, the 1st (armored car) and 3rd (D-1 tanks) GE's were attached to the French BLM (Light Mechanized Brigade) and fought in the Tunisia campaign. In Nov., 1942, the 5th RCA had 15x D-1 tanks, plus a further 20 hidden from the Axis Armistice Control Commission, about 9x White TBC/White-Laffley; and about 10x Schneider P16 halftrack armored cars. I don't know how they were allocated. I would guess that the GED got the armored cars, and the GER was, in fact, a GEC, mis-named to fool the Armistice Control Commission. In March, 1943, the 5th RCA retired their D-1's and received British Valentines in exchange. I'm sure the maintenance people were not at all sad to see the last of the P16's, which had been built in 1929. The fact that any were still running in 1942-43 is amazing.

1 REC: allocated +/- 11x White TBC/White-Laffley, and about 3x Laffley Vincennes. This should have been enough to equip a sqn. No further information.

12th GACA: (2nd Sqn. was equipped w/ 23x S-35 tanks). Stationed in Senegal in Nov. 1942. 2nd Sqn. Transferred to on Tunisia on 21 Feb., 1943. Attached to "Maghzen Motorized March" unit, later retitled GBF (French Armored Group), and became its 7th Sqn. on March 1, 1943. The MMM and GBF were short-lived ad hoc units, and I have no information about their organization or equipment. Like many "March" units, they seem to have borrowed a squadron or company from each of several regiments. At the end of the Tunisia campaign, 19 of the 23 S-35 tanks were still running, which is a testament to the mechanics of the unit. On May 29, 1943, 7th Sqn. rejoins 12th GACA and is re-designated 2nd. Sqn. 12th CACA is re-designated as 12th RCA, and converted into a tank regiment under the Afna Plan, equipped with M4A2 and M5A3's using an American TOE. Attached to LeClerc's French 2nd Armored Division. Took part in French 1944-45 campaign, including liberation of Paris.