Actually, he's never explicity said that he owes it all to Tempu. He might credit some ideas and exercises to the Tempukai, but he is very emphatic (especially in now out of print versions of his books) that his methods are his and are drawn from teachers, like Ueshiba and Nakamura, as well as his own experiences. Much emphasis is placed on the latter.

Not to lose sight of your entre' into the discussion, you were essentially cavilling that people didn't have to go outside of Ueshiba's teachings to get ki things. I submit that now you've pretty much admitted that Kohei *did* have to go outside of Ueshiba's teachings to get his full understanding of ki and kokyu, but now you want to argue how much. I don't want to go there, thanks.

Insofar as Tohei not giving certain amounts of credit to Nakamura and Ueshiba, Tohei often doesn't give credit and he's prone to oblique putdowns to Ueshiba and others, as well. Let's accept what useful knowledge we can from Tohei without being drawn into side discussions. Remember, he also said there was no such thing as the Bataan Death March, etc.... i.e., I have never accepted a lot of Tohei's statements as being particularly 100% accurate because there is a certain amount of self-concernedness in many things he says. Not that it bothers me... I'm just not naive, nor do I want to get involved in a "Tohei is the Greatest" discussion.

For the purposes of the discussion at hand, elements of ki training that were not given by Ueshiba were picked up in the Tempukai and other places by students of Ueshiba. I know that for a fact.

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I have no idea what you're referring to here. I can dig up those old e-mails out of the recycling bin and sent folder and post them, if need be. We had some friendly disagreement about things (nothing heated,) but if I have controversial or weird views on Ki, you'll have to point them out--it's news to me and those who have followed my postings for years on Aikido Journal.

I think you see the world of ki and kokyu as revolving around Tohei and your understanding of what he said. And apparently you feel you have some sort of "position", given your "postings for years on Aikido Journal". I didn't mean to trivialize a long-time poster on Aikido Journal or to show lack of respect, but I'm coming from outside of that, James. I have a moderate level of understanding and abilities (which I can demonstrate, not just talk about) and in my world Tohei and his teachings are simply a variation of something I've seen in many places. It is not the special cloistered world you seem to imagine it is because you have a loyalty to Tohei. Because I'm dispassionate about these things, you make think it's offensive to Tohei and your beliefs, but you'll have to accept it that I'm neither for nor against Tohei or anyone else. I just look at it all as interesting information about a fascinating subject that is quite large. I get information where I can and I try to be as open as I want others to be with me. If you want me to take you seriously and respect your knowledge, how about displaying some of what you know?

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As for understanding Tohei and his teachings, I understand that slamming me after my last post seems like the order of the day, but I'm not sure you're in a good position to judge my knowledge of Tohei's teachings either way, no matter what I say here.

I dunno.... I can't be the only person in the world who understands this concept, but it is obvious to me that if I engage in a conversation with a real expert (which I don't claim to be) in ki and kokyu things, I'm fully aware that what I say and don't say will give a general indication of what my level of understanding is. Based on what little you've written about ki and kokyu, how little of substance you've been able to contribute, your strange views on "kung fu" and "tai chi", etc., I have a good idea about what your level of understanding is in ki and kokyu things. Your level in what Tohei teaches isn't particularly relevant to the current ki-and-kokyu-focused discussions, despite the fact that you seem to think that the ki things in Aikido are somehow different from ki things in general. If you believe that, please lay out your reasoning, etc.... you can do so without making my personality an issue. I'm asking you to do so once again.

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Well, research is one thing, talking down to anyone who disagrees with you is quite another. You may not feel guilty of the latter, but if potential sources of info think so, it seriously hamstrings your investigation.

Give us some... *any*... substantive information. You seem to be saying that I'm not recognizing you for the knowledgeable person you are..... you can't win a poker hand without showing any cards at all, James. From my perspective (and I could be wrong), I haven't been "talking down" to anyone, I've been trying to engage a conversation on a certain level and some people feel defensive about that level, as basic as it is... i.e., they want me to drop back into the typical AikiWeb level that they can participate in and are offended if someone doesn't play by the peer rules they imagine are in play. Why don't we stop with all this flummery and just discuss ki and kokyu things? Contribute something. Don't keep hinting, as Shaun does, that you have hidden-but-deep resources of information we would all die to have. Just say something useful and let's go from there.

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....and you've replied to me much the way you have to everyone who's disagreed with you. And it represents a perspective that is in direct contradiction with the pretense of gathering information and investigating the facts.

Oh, please. Quote me an example instead of these vague charges about my personality... and elaborate on the factual parts of it.

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But given your past discussions with members of this forum, it seems to be a pattern that whenever anyone says anything about Ki that's different than what you believe, you mark them as being somehow outside of the confines of current Asian practice and ideology (as if you were the sole litmus test.) Perhaps, this is a means of not so surreptitiously saying they're some sort of whack job econoclastic individualist, with little regard for convention, and should be ignored thusly.

Give me some quotes, please, now that you've made the charges. And go to substance as soon as you can on ki and kokyu, rather than this constant harping on your perceptions of my personal flaws. You seem oblivious to the fact that you have not given a single supporting fact to support any of your personal comments and you still have not discussed substantively any aspect of ki or kokyu. Here's your chance. Tell us something substantive about ki and kokyu that is different from what I believe. Then let's discuss it.

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I've never met Tohei.

Good. So your objections to what I said about Tohei and Ki are simply based on what you believe, not on what Tohei told you. That was my point. I.e., I can see what he does in pictures and on videos and read what he writes and I can compare it all to 25+ years of focusing purely on the ki phenomenon in many arts, your objections notwithstanding. Am I correct in thinking that's permissible? Instead of playing this game that you know secret things, yada, yada, yada, I invite you... and Shaun Ravens, who implies the same things... to take the conversation as an interesting, personality-free discussion about how ki and kokyu things work and simply join in rather than sit on the sidelines and snipe. Anyone can snipe.