I am considering giving each Human Facility an additional unit. I have both Assault and Espionage taken care of, but I'm a little stuck on Pyrotechnic. The challenge is coming up with a unit that will compliment and synergize well with the existing units of the facility and fill in any gaps, matching their playstyle, while also fitting into the overall whole of the Human race without much role overlapping.

AssaultTheir weakness is mobility. Both the Lancer and Gunner are the slowest infantry, and their attacks can be exploited: rockets can be dodged and the Minigun's spin-up delay can be teased. To answer Assault's needs, they will receive the APC. As you can imagine, it will be able to transport units, though unlike the APC from the original STF it will move at an above-average speed but lack an attack. The APC will have high health, allowing it to act as a meatshield and a refuge for dying units on the retreat. Units inside will slowly heal, giving it appeal as an on-site medic. For its crowning feat, the APC will be able to cast an Ensnare-like ability, reducing an enemy to the same mobility as Assault units, preventing rocket-dodging or just covering an APC's retreat from pursuit with its precious cargo.

EspionageWho else should they have? The Spy, revamped with a new cloaking mechanic! Spies will have a tiny energy reserve, just enough for a few seconds of cloaking. By having so little energy, however, they'll also recover it fairly quickly. The result is a brief cloak, but not long enough to completely terrorize when the other player doesn't have detection. It will be just long enough to mask the Spy's approach, sneak past chokes, avoid focus-fire in combat, or make a clean getaway. In addition, while moving, the Spy will look identical to an Engineer, allowing her to blend in with a group of Engineer fodder. Standing still or attacking will reveal the Spy for what she is.

PyrotechnicGiven enough time, I'm bound to come up with something, but I'd like to hear any ideas you guys might have. My thoughts are that it should probably have a good air attack, since neither the Grenadier nor Asher are much against it, and it should do something other than AoE while still remaining true to Pyrotechnic's namesake. A damage-over-time attack might be interesting, relating it to, say, Thermite. The unit must fill a role that Pyrotechnic needs for their playstyle, yet also works as a unit in the greater scheme of the Human race, being useful across Facilities.

As a side note, I'm planning on giving the Ranger EMP Grenades (Feedback) instead of Concussion Grenades (Maelstrom). This meshes better with Espionage's style and needs, and will serve as a good counter against the above mentioned APC (a unit that Snipers hate). The Grenadier's Landmines will no longer explode, instead they'll emit a concussive pulse that will stun units (Maelstrom). The mine will have a fairly long cooldown, so once the stun wears off it can be targetted and destroyed; but if you finish off the stunned targets before then the mine will re-burrow for continued use. Gunners will lose Suppressive Fire, allowing Disruption Web to be given to the Harrier as "Jamming" or somesuch to assist in Osprey drops.

I am also considering giving the Harrier some kind of air-to-ground bombing spell. To do so, the Asher might lose his Napalm Grenade so that the Harrier may gain a Firebomb ability, which would be a spell that'll require the Harrier to fly right above its target (which can be made safer with Dweb Jamming).

Last edited by Hercanic on Sat May 16, 2009 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

The problem with ideas for Pyrotechnics is that they overlap a lot with Assault. For example, a dedicated building destroyer would overlap with the Lancer's Mortar attack.

Actually, I think Pyrotechnics could have an Acid Spore-like attack, if you want to give them an anti-air role. Although, there isn't much air in the game so far. Maybe it's time for the Floating Fortress to make its reappearance?

Well, if you are keeping it to three examples the general tactic is to have the triangle rule of fighting, where A > B, B > C and C > A.

So towards the mixes, the Assault keeping to their slow speed should be weak to fast movement targets. However the APC seems like an abuse object, I'd just put the units outside of it, make it move in front of the targets to block their movements and when they got close would jump my Assault units inside of it and run off. So do watch out for this! I'd almost argue for the APC being low of health to cover its speed in relation to the general slowness of the Assault units.

Espionage seems like a great choice for close combat attacking with weak health, however they still need something to back them up when the battle gets a bit crazy, I'd encourage spell or weapons that can slow down opponents and possibly confuse them so they do not function.

Pryotechnic should be all about the in between. They are neither super tough like Assault, or super fast like Espionage but they mix it up. However this kind of seems to me a bit weird. I think playing them off as the spell casters could be interesting, keeping a unit for general firepower but having the second unit more resolved to specific spells and actions might bring in a little action.

Herc has the idea of gradual improvements to units with high kill points been considered? I have always found the idea that you can improve attack at the cost of health to sound interesting.

Well, if you are keeping it to three examples the general tactic is to have the triangle rule of fighting, where A > B, B > C and C > A.

Yes, Rock-paper-scissors, or RPS balancing. Fairly common, though I do prefer very soft RPS that rely more on circumstances and micro. With three facilities of three units, that boils down to each unit needing to be a good choice against one other unit from each facility.

ExampleSpy > Lancer, due to Lancer's dodgable rockets and minimum range.Spy > Grenadier, due to the Grenadier's minimum range.Spy > Sniper, due to cloaking breaking the Sniper's laser dot.

Spy < Gunner, due to melee range being the Gunner's highest damage range.Spy < Asher, due to persistant flames that can damage the Spy even after cloaking.Spy < Ranger, due to Ranger's high speed.

Spy ? New Pyrotech unitSpy ~ APC

Naturally, none of these are hard counters and rely on the situation and each respective player's level of attention and micro. A Spy not cloaking could be taken out by a Sniper, for instance, or a Ranger not kiting would fall to the Spy.

So towards the mixes, the Assault keeping to their slow speed should be weak to fast movement targets. However the APC seems like an abuse object, I'd just put the units outside of it, make it move in front of the targets to block their movements and when they got close would jump my Assault units inside of it and run off. So do watch out for this! I'd almost argue for the APC being low of health to cover its speed in relation to the general slowness of the Assault units.

The APC would be closer to medium speed than anything much higher; it's just that medium speed is still slightly faster than either the Gunner or Lancer normally more.

Espionage seems like a great choice for close combat attacking with weak health, however they still need something to back them up when the battle gets a bit crazy, I'd encourage spell or weapons that can slow down opponents and possibly confuse them so they do not function.

Don't forget about Guards and even Engineers. Guards are meant to be used as fodder, and no other army needs distracting fodder more than Espionage.

Pryotechnic should be all about the in between. They are neither super tough like Assault, or super fast like Espionage but they mix it up. However this kind of seems to me a bit weird. I think playing them off as the spell casters could be interesting, keeping a unit for general firepower but having the second unit more resolved to specific spells and actions might bring in a little action.

Hm, the third Pyrotech unit could be more like a spellcaster of some kind, though with most all spells spoken for he'd need good reasons for whatever spells he'd have.

Herc has the idea of gradual improvements to units with high kill points been considered? I have always found the idea that you can improve attack at the cost of health to sound interesting.

Not currently possible, though have already been looking into it for the RPG hero-like Grays of the Observers.

Dear Mucky:

The problem with ideas for Pyrotechnics is that they overlap a lot with Assault. For example, a dedicated building destroyer would overlap with the Lancer's Mortar attack.

The Asher actually excels at killing buildings with his stacking flames, and can hit at siege range with Napalm. The Grenadier's cluster of grenades tend to hit buildings more often than smaller units, so they too do a good amount of building damage.

The unit needn't conform to typical archetypes like Siege.

Actually, I think Pyrotechnics could have an Acid Spore-like attack, if you want to give them an anti-air role. Although, there isn't much air in the game so far. Maybe it's time for the Floating Fortress to make its reappearance?

Air is intentionally very minor with no direct damage from air-to-ground, though there are and will be a few supporting air units from each race that you might want to take out, such as Human Harriers and Ospreys; Observer Espials, Grays, and the Mothership; Metaphyte Sporeclouds, Caretakers, and Hellions.

I must admit I do have a soft-spot for the Floating Fortress, but the question is, what of its role? While landed, it could be an Engineer/Guard producer, allowing it to act as a proxy Guard factory. Maybe it could also cast some spells? With its slow movement speed (although I can make it faster), it'd need spells that aren't as demanding on the here and now. It could also be a transport, capable of carrying 8 units.

Making it also be a guard factory would be good too. Gives it some powerful offensive punch: you land it somewhere reasonably safe but close to your enemy's base, unload your troops, and then start pumping guards.

Another possible idea: can you make buildings build freestanding structures as addons (essentially, build an addon that it can leave behind and have the addon still function)? That way the FF could go around claiming territory.

-I don't like the idea of giving APCs a spell, also thought entangle would be cool for suppression fire instead of dweb-sort of like spy but with small energy reserve it makes him really dumb unless he is really really strong b/c he wont get any spells and then he becomes this really weird unit so i dunno-pyro 3rd- is it possible to move landmines from grenadiers into an energy spell, then recreate ammopacks? because if so imo this would be the greatest time ever to recreate ammo boy or w/e with a different weapon obv (pyrotech being the neediest for energy) or maybe even a spell that has sort of like the same function as a shield battery but for energy, because that would be cool especially if the dude also has a spell that is alright.

iffy on apcs because the idea seems cool but also at the same time super duper strong.

also for pyro 3rd it would be rly cool if you could put in a unit that can hit a lot better than ashers and grenadiers, because i was like asdglkasdjglk when mucky killed my 2 ashers with 1 soldier and i bet it would be just as frustrating to lose with grenadiers because they couldn't hit him.

-I don't like the idea of giving APCs a spell, also thought entangle would be cool for suppression fire instead of dweb

Not a bad idea. Just FYI, originally Ensnare was going to be reversed and used as a Metaphyte spell, allowing them to throw it on a group of their own units to increase their movement speed.

-sort of like spy but with small energy reserve it makes him really dumb unless he is really really strong b/c he wont get any spells and then he becomes this really weird unit so i dunno

Well, with the original Spy, her spells weren't often used since it meant less time cloaked, and cloaking tended to be more powerful. Most spells are claimed by the Observers now, too, so there's not much to go around unless there's a strong reason to move one. The Spy could have a spell that used all or most of her energy, making it unusable in tandem with cloak, but what and why?

Spies will be quite devestating if not dealt with, due to rapid, high damage. Weak health means they'll fall fast, but when teamed with fodder their ducking in and out of cloak will confuse the unit AI, requiring players to pay attention to manually target the Spies each time their cloak breaks.

-pyro 3rd- is it possible to move landmines from grenadiers into an energy spell, then recreate ammopacks? because if so imo this would be the greatest time ever to recreate ammo boy or w/e with a different weapon obv (pyrotech being the neediest for energy) or maybe even a spell that has sort of like the same function as a shield battery but for energy, because that would be cool especially if the dude also has a spell that is alright.

Units loaded into Oil Pumps actually gain energy faster than normal, so once you make some Ashers pop them into a Pump until needed.

iffy on apcs because the idea seems cool but also at the same time super duper strong.

To limit APC healing, and keep the Ranger as a legitimate threat, each tick that the APC heals units within itself, it will drain energy and be unable to heal if empty. So the APC will be even more like a Medic, but in order to heal you must micro units to get inside, and by being sheltered the units cannot contribute to the fight.

also for pyro 3rd it would be rly cool if you could put in a unit that can hit a lot better than ashers and grenadiers, because i was like asdglkasdjglk when mucky killed my 2 ashers with 1 soldier and i bet it would be just as frustrating to lose with grenadiers because they couldn't hit him.

I'm thinking the new Pyrotech unit will have either a tracking or appear-on-target attack. I'm thinking it should also be damage-over-time. This would keep pressure on cloaking spies or units loaded inside an APC, and would be deceptive to both as the unit might already be guarenteed dead. DoT would require careful control, though, as it'd be all too easy to waste damage through focus-firing and thereby reducing their overall effectiveness if not managed.

Dear IGTN:

Another possible idea: can you make buildings build freestanding structures as addons (essentially, build an addon that it can leave behind and have the addon still function)? That way the FF could go around claiming territory.

Buildings can make buildings, they don't have to be addons. Claiming territory might not be practical, though, if the FF moves slowly. Plus, with the new claiming system I have planned, Engineers will be the best suited.

Last edited by Hercanic on Sun May 17, 2009 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Not a bad idea. Just FYI, originally Ensnare was going to be reversed and used as a Metaphyte spell, allowing them to throw it on a group of their own units to increase their movement speed.

oh is it impossible to use a spells effects more than once?

Well, with the original Spy, her spells weren't often used since it meant less time cloaked, and cloaking tended to be more powerful. Most spells are claimed by the Observers now, too, so there's not much to go around unless there's a strong reason to move one. The Spy could have a spell that used all or most of her energy, making it unusable in tandem with cloak, but what and why?

Spies will be quite devestating if not dealt with, due to rapid, high damage. Weak health means they'll fall fast, but when teamed with fodder their ducking in and out of cloak will confuse the unit AI, requiring players to pay attention to manually target the Spies each time their cloak breaks.

the only reason why i dont like the cloak thing as the only spy ability is that they basically become DTs with a limited cloak. obviously some things might be a little cooler because with the way that you want it to phase in and out makes it sort of like dodging with reaver+shuttle but i dont think it will end up working the way you want it to work. at this stage though i think you shouldnt really be as worried with balancing the game or whatever with unit roles as much because it is really impossible to predict how the game will play out especially with the other races in play. once the gameplay starts to come out as a whole instead of this 1 matchup view of the mod you'll be able to more accurately assess things because although unit x or spell y might end up being useless in Human vs. human or whatever it might be a staple of another matchup, sort of like how bio is dominant in tvz and mech in tvp.

I can use the exact same spell more than once, but I cannot make different versions of the same spell. SC modding revolves around replacement.

the only reason why i dont like the cloak thing as the only spy ability is that they basically become DTs with a limited cloak. obviously some things might be a little cooler because with the way that you want it to phase in and out makes it sort of like dodging with reaver+shuttle but i dont think it will end up working the way you want it to work.

There's only one way to really find out then, right? =o) I want each and every unit to bring something unique to the table. That is my main approach with designing all units in every race. All the Observer and Metaphyte units will be quite different from one another. Naturally, this makes my job harder in the long run, but worth it. I feel the Spy will bring something unique now, a use that requires decisions and input from the player to be effective.

at this stage though i think you shouldnt really be as worried with balancing the game or whatever with unit roles as much because it is really impossible to predict how the game will play out especially with the other races in play. once the gameplay starts to come out as a whole instead of this 1 matchup view of the mod you'll be able to more accurately assess things because although unit x or spell y might end up being useless in Human vs. human or whatever it might be a staple of another matchup, sort of like how bio is dominant in tvz and mech in tvp.

Internal racial balance is just as important. I do predict Pyrotechnic will be favored against the masses of Metaphyte, whereas the range and speed of Espionage might be vital against the guerrilla Observers.

I would honestly like to avoid useless units/abilities in certain matchups. Plus, I have to start with something, and one solid race gives me a foundation.

Last edited by Hercanic on Wed May 20, 2009 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dear Lavarinth:And professionals are infallible? =oP Starcraft is great, well-balanced, popular, and hugely competitive, but it ain't perfect. As for EMP and Irradiate, they are two spells on the same unit, along with Defense Matrix and mobile air-based detection, so the unit itself is useful in all matchups.

Dear everyone:For the new Pyrotech unit, I'm thinking it ought to be a vehicle, like a tank or jeep. It will have a heavy anti-air Flak Cannon, along with a ground-based Incendiary Cannon that deals damage over time. It will have a turret that can attack while the unit is moving. This will allow it to flank and pick off stragglers. No name yet. If anyone knows of a cool military equivalent, by all means post about it.

I am strongly considering bringing back the Floating Fortress. I think it's role would be primarily late-game air-based siege. I am wondering if a building can be made as a unit; then the FF could come directly from the Airfield. Otherwise, the Engineer would build it after the player has finished an Airfield with a Hanger. May need to introduce one additional requirement building.

I've decided that the Asher will no longer have Napalm, and instead will rely on the persistant flames from his flamethrower. Hm, an idea just occured to me to create a damage upgrade strictly for those flames, allowing me to keep his early game from being overpowered but his lategame strong enough to remain a contender.

This brings the tally of human spells to the Gunner with Suppressive Fire (Ensnare), Grenadier with Landmines (reusable Spider Mines that will stun with Maelstrom), and the Ranger with EMP (Feedback). The APC will have an energy bar, using it to heal loaded units, and the Spy will have a very small energy reservior to create a dodging-cloak effect. Given this layout, the Ranger's EMP will be useless against Pyrotechnics now, whereas it'll be crucial against Assault.

I could give the Frag Grenade to certain units in order to give them an energy bar. The Sniper comes to mine, which he could use while on the retreat.

Hercanic wrote:I've decided that the Asher will no longer have Napalm, and instead will rely on the persistant flames from his flamethrower. Hm, an idea just occured to me to create a damage upgrade strictly for those flames, allowing me to keep his early game from being overpowered but his lategame strong enough to remain a contender.

This brings the tally of human spells to the Gunner with Suppressive Fire (Ensnare), Grenadier with Landmines (reusable Spider Mines that will stun with Maelstrom), and the Ranger with EMP (Feedback). The APC will have an energy bar, using it to heal loaded units, and the Spy will have a very small energy reservior to create a dodging-cloak effect. Given this layout, the Ranger's EMP will be useless against Pyrotechnics now, whereas it'll be crucial against Assault.

I could give the Frag Grenade to certain units in order to give them an energy bar. The Sniper comes to mine, which he could use while on the retreat.

when do you anticipate most first researched spells getting into the field? like if a player is able to begin researching right away after getting their fac, and getting their fac at the very start of the match, would they be able to have their spell researched by the time they reach the enemy base or sooner? i was thinking about suggesting that some (or maybe all) abilities research very fast because imo i think it might make the game a little more interesting because1. your early game skirmishes might have a little bit more depth available2. it strengthens getting a 2nd fac because you'll gain access to their shit faster.

also from the looks of things i feel like espionage is really really strong and will be a really really strong add-on in human vs. human. rangers can kill apcs healing ability with an emp and probably take away a chunk of its health, and groups of rangers are pretty adept at taking down single targets, so unless the apc can unload everything instantly like a bunker can i think espionage players will be able to just push out with snipers and a group of rangers and then just emp apcs and try to gun them down while running back with rangers every time assault manages to get their ball out. mines are pretty useless vs. rangers and espionage benefits the most from being spread out which is pretty bad for pyro because they excel at dealing with masses of units.

i think maybe if you make the heavy cannon on the pyro jeep hit both air and ground and make the jeep a large unit and give it considerable speed (or the grenadiers speed upgrade) then pyro will have a pretty viable option vs. espionage although i think even then espionage would be the better add-on. im not sure i like that idea much either because basically it calls for massing up forces of jeeps and just trying to gib units and run away until you can overwhelm them. making landmines less vulnerable to ranger attacks would probably help this too, so that way a pyro can be trying to pick off units and trying to push forward themselves and be able to defend areas and stuff.

i think with assault if apcs unload like bunkers like i said before you wouldnt need too many tweaks to them to keep them in the running, although i really dont like assaults choices for first units because its really hard to mount early aggression with assault because they are so slow, and even once you get apcs i think since you have to build an apc you'll be behind in units anyway.

also this is probably the wrong thread or whatever but did guards used to be built from a different building and you decided that it would be better if they were built from the hub instead? it just feels really awkward for me (probably because i never played zerg) to have all my units come from the same unit producer and for me to only have like 1 of them.

[edit]ignore what i said about the mines because i didnt read that whole part about the mine changing (thought it would be the same except they regenerate and do maelstrom instead of damage)

Last edited by aiurz on Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

when do you anticipate most first researched spells getting into the field? like if a player is able to begin researching right away after getting their fac, and getting their fac at the very start of the match, would they be able to have their spell researched by the time they reach the enemy base or sooner?

I haven't done any time planning for the spells and upgrades yet. As this was the first release of the new version, I needed to see how people play the game.

i was thinking about suggesting that some (or maybe all) abilities research very fast because imo i think it might make the game a little more interesting because1. your early game skirmishes might have a little bit more depth available2. it strengthens getting a 2nd fac because you'll gain access to their shit faster.

I think it's a very fine balance to walk. Too fast, and it might as well be instant.

also from the looks of things i feel like espionage is really really strong and will be a really really strong add-on in human vs. human.

Indeed, the Human's basic gameplay are most vulnerable to Espioange's style. An idea I played with not too long ago was having a facility only unlock one of the units, and to unlock the next you'd need another of the same facility. So, you could choose to go down one branch, or spread across all three. Costs and timings on Hubs/Facilities would be changed to reflect this. With this kind of tech tree approach, Snipers could be placed deeper down the rabbit hole.

rangers can kill apcs healing ability with an emp and probably take away a chunk of its health, and groups of rangers are pretty adept at taking down single targets,

The Gunner's Suppressive Fire can help counter Rangers by taking away their speed, if they get the spell off before EMPed.

so unless the apc can unload everything instantly like a bunker

I'd like to be able to do that, but unloading seems to work differently depending on whether it's a building or a unit, as opposed to two seperate unload commands.

can i think espionage players will be able to just push out with snipers and a group of rangers and then just emp apcs and try to gun them down while running back with rangers every time assault manages to get their ball out.

I agree, AvE is looking mighty hairy for A, but the large size of the APC covers against Snipers and units can pop in and out of the APC to avoid stealthed Spies until they run dry. So the key will be taking out Rangers. Groups of guards will likely be important in mucking up the Rangers.

mines are pretty useless vs. rangers and espionage benefits the most from being spread out which is pretty bad for pyro because they excel at dealing with masses of units.

Ashers leave persistant damage, letting them continue damaging melee Spies even when they're cloaked. Grenadiers have the speed to almost match Rangers, and their attack has a much longer range and tracks. Their mines also ensure Rangers are stopped cold in their tracks. The Flak Tank, being of larger size and decent speed, can rush Sniper positions.

i think maybe if you make the heavy cannon on the pyro jeep hit both air and ground

What do you mean? It will hit both air and ground, but have two different weapons. The Flak cannon will be very effective against air, whereas the Incendiary cannon deals Appear-on-target Damage-over-time. It fires incendiary munitions that create a localized burning at the point of impact, thus the DoT.

and make the jeep a large unit and give it considerable speed (or the grenadiers speed upgrade) then pyro will have a pretty viable option vs. espionage although i think even then espionage would be the better add-on. im not sure i like that idea much either because basically it calls for massing up forces of jeeps and just trying to gib units and run away until you can overwhelm them. making landmines less vulnerable to ranger attacks would probably help this too, so that way a pyro can be trying to pick off units and trying to push forward themselves and be able to defend areas and stuff.

Landmines will have more health, since they are far more harmless now without support.

i think with assault if apcs unload like bunkers like i said before you wouldnt need too many tweaks to them to keep them in the running, although i really dont like assaults choices for first units because its really hard to mount early aggression with assault because they are so slow, and even once you get apcs i think since you have to build an apc you'll be behind in units anyway.

Assault's best opener is probably the Gunner, since he doesn't have the weakness of a minimum range or dodgable rockets like the Lancer, nor the lack of a weapon like the APC. However, let's not forget Guards! Even an APC opener could be deadly with Guard support.

also this is probably the wrong thread or whatever but did guards used to be built from a different building and you decided that it would be better if they were built from the hub instead? it just feels really awkward for me (probably because i never played zerg) to have all my units come from the same unit producer and for me to only have like 1 of them.

No, I never planned on giving the Humans more than one unit producer. The Airfield resulted out of necessity.

[edit]ignore what i said about the mines because i didnt read that whole part about the mine changing (thought it would be the same except they regenerate and do maelstrom instead of damage)

Yes, they will no longer suicide, so if you keep support nearby to clean up the stunned victims, you'll have a strong defensive position.