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Throw everything away!!!

Somebody came up on another thread with the topic of the observer. There would be an "I" closer to the real me once you witness what takes place. This is found in modern Advaita as well as in the teachings of many New Age leading figures. Somehow we would all be going to the movies, enjoying the trailers and the film, stuffing our face with ice cream and popcorn knowing that it is not real, that this over there cannot be identified with the guy sitting.

The observer. A spiritual myth exploited by a bunch of clever spiritual salesmen with a few goodies for all of you ranging from " this is how I became enlightened " to " how to live in the present".

Let s make it very clear. Once reached, this simplicity conceals the treasure. There is nobody left. Nothing to grasp. Nobody to see or know. Tolle caught the tail of the ox and turned it into a sceptre. Not even good enough to get rid of flies. Good to make money. But that s not shinjin , body and mind dropped away.

As Trungpa puts it, and I said this already, the ego wants to see its own funeral. But it cannot. No witness in Buddha land, no Buddha to see or being seen. Eyes cannot see themselves. Once realized, no traces of Buddha, no whiff of awakening.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

Tolle is the guy that wrote : the Power of Now" and wrote about this enlightenment experience and how he suddenly reached a wonderful state of being. The web is full of his teachings. Many You tube vids too. Check it out!
As to the observer or witness, it is supposed to be this true you opposed to the fake you that you are all the time.

PS - My brain had a moment of complete confusion when, looking at the other thread, I believed Tolle Eckhart and Meister Eckhart to be the same person. They're only separated by about 700 years... that's not too long, right?

Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
It all begins when we say, “I”. Everything that follows is illusion.
"Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
寂道

My brain had a moment of complete confusion when, looking at the other thread, I believed Tolle Eckhart and Meister Eckhart to be the same person.

Actually, Eckhart is not the original forename of Tolle. His original name was Ulrich Tolle and he changed his forename into Eckhart. According to some people he did this as an allusion to Meister Eckhart.
Anyway, what are names?

Actually, Eckhart is not the original forename of Tolle. His original name was Ulrich Tolle and he changed his forename into Eckhart. According to some people he did this as an allusion to Meister Eckhart.
Anyway, what are names?

Not familiar with Trungpa so checked it out - and found myself watching a discussion between Trungpa and Krishnamurti. Understand these are different traditions with their own flavour of teaching but was struck by something Krishnamurti said - that seems to relate to this thread.

Basically - the teaching was that there is always disorder within the mind - and that it is only by the observation of disorder that we can apprehend order (a sense of the absolute/unity?). Stillness come naturally when we have order (I'm paraphrasing here). We have to drop the 'me' because it is only the state of absence of 'me' that brings a sense of order.

Is this teaching the same as body and mind dropped away?

He also said it was central to ask the question 'Can the mind observe without memory and time?'

He seemed to be saying that if the above can be experienced we are observing without the 'me' - which I guess is to step beyond discriminating, etc?.

I guess everyone has there own way of explaining things. Even buddha said don't. Believe me experience your own truth. Throw everything away and what is left. Its right in front of you. You are it. And everything is it. Buddha nature or whatever you want to call it. Hope this didn't sound too zenny.

A few comments in this thread re-minded me of something I was reflecting on earlier today..... For those who have spent a even a little time at a monastery, you probably noted that trainees often go about activities at break-neck speed. Let's call it serenity without a second to spare. I remember a trainee who worked in the yogurt-making room rushing across the temple grounds, running that is, in knee-high rubber boots and apron to get changed in time for midday services. I wondered....what happens if he stumbles and falls flat on his face like Dodgers-legend Maury Wills sliding into second-base.

Obvious that all monastery adherents have responsibilities of various sorts. You might be in accounting, or one who figures out what is wrong with the back flow of the septic tank.

We guest lay trainees had it "easy".....there. However, our lives within family, careers, school, transportation, et al give us the opportunity to train at-a-pace that can help keep "self" from "being self".

I liked that comment about the "self wanting to see it's own funeral". I have certainly had that concept many times. If only this idiot would leave and let serene-reflection reveal....but, it implies
that some form of self is there to observe the reflection.

There is also a warning to trainees, and I've heard it a number of times here in the West, about people getting sort-of "slow" or "zombied out" within their activities. One of the implications
is that the trainee may actually be getting caught up in a self-awareness game where subject-verb-object aren't dropped away, but rather there is a self-validating-quietude of "oh, I am being sooo mindful right now, doing these activities just right. I am trying so hard to do it my best, and so on." It's me, me, me doing this, this, this. So, this "observer" quietly taking-it-all-in with a "there is...." still separates self and other.

And, I suppose that is what some of these other "mindful" disciplines alluded to in this thread end up doing. It's all about "me" being aware/mindful of observing "this".

But consider this: You are walking from the kitchen to the dining area with a plate of beautifully-colored drinks that you are proudly delivering to your guests, and your foot catches on the edge of a rug, you lose your balance, the platter and you go crashing about. Resulting in a mess, some embarrassment, and recovery. In that split second moment or two when things are topsy turvy, there is no allowance for consideration of me, or tripping, or glasses spilling. It just "is being". And, it's changing every sub-fraction of that very brief moment, before the ego jumps in with a whole lot
of conceptual mumbo jumbo about embarrassment, that damn rug, etc.

I once almost choked on a peanut butter sandwich while in formal mealtime in the meditation hall at a monastic retreat. There was an ego struggling to maintain composure, not wanting to be the outrageous fool who can't seem to eat his food right, but has to make a scene in order not to choke to death. Let's see....... choking? drawing unwanted attention to myself? Hmmmm. Something etched in memory to remind me what ego is capable of doing.

So, I'm not proposing that one act recklessly to "be real", because that's not a good idea or the solution; but also to say that the flip-side of taking it slow, careful, being precisely mindful about everything is also not hitting the mark; if you find that is what's going on in your training. Can you imagine dancing with that zombie-like mindfulness?

and then I am reminded by Dogen from Bendowa (The Wholehearted Way) "Buddhist practitioners should know not to argue about the superiority or inferiority of teachings and not to discriminate between superficial or profound dharma, but should only know whether the practice is genuine or false."

I think that the lifestyle Krishnamurti described is very much like Zen practice. Reading his talks help me to better understand practice, unless I am misled.

I remember reading in Taking the Path of Zen that Aitken Roshi very much wanted to meet Krishnamurti and talk with him because he felt Krishnamurti's philosophy and Zen had a lot in common.

Originally Posted by willow

...Not familiar with Trungpa so checked it out - and found myself watching a discussion between Trungpa and Krishnamurti. Understand these are different traditions with their own flavour of teaching but was struck by something Krishnamurti said - that seems to relate to this thread.

Basically - the teaching was that there is always disorder within the mind - and that it is only by the observation of disorder that we can apprehend order (a sense of the absolute/unity?). Stillness come naturally when we have order (I'm paraphrasing here). We have to drop the 'me' because it is only the state of absence of 'me' that brings a sense of order.

Is this teaching the same as body and mind dropped away?

He also said it was central to ask the question 'Can the mind observe without memory and time?'

He seemed to be saying that if the above can be experienced we are observing without the 'me' - which I guess is to step beyond discriminating, etc?.

Thanks for that Amelia. I watched another discussion and although Krishnamurti forgoes all 'religions' what he says sounds the same as Zen. In some respects he didn't seem to realise that his philosophy mirrors Zen but after reading about his background ( groomed by the Theosophical society to be a world leader/saviour) I can understand his distancing himself from all labelling/doctrines (as a reaction to what had been put upon him).

His work on education - freeing children to discover their own minds/answers liberated from indoctrination - is inspiring.

I watched another discussion and although Krishnamurti forgoes all 'religions' what he says sounds the same as Zen.

I have always felt the same way. In fact, I think I can attribute my discovery of Zen philosophy through reading about Krishnamurti and related subjects.

Originally Posted by willow

In some respects he didn't seem to realise that his philosophy mirrors Zen but after reading about his background ( groomed by the Theosophical society to be a world leader/saviour) I can understand his distancing himself from all labelling/doctrines (as a reaction to what had been put upon him).

I wonder if he knew that his teachings were similar to zen, and simply felt it very important to reject all ties bound up by labels and images. In zen, we also try to live without the duality of your way versus my way, etc, so even though we call it zen, what can be called zen is not zen, right?

I wonder if he knew that his teachings were similar to zen, and simply felt it very important to reject all ties bound up by labels and images. In zen, we also try to live without the duality of your way versus my way, etc, so even though we call it zen, what can be called zen is not zen, right?

I wonder too Amelia - I don't know enough of his work to be clear on it.

What really strikes me about Krishnamurti is his fire and passion. He also has a very strong intellect and questions 'everything' in a very precise and disciplined manner. In this respect I feel he is a philosopher above all else.

Thanks for your feedback - I feel encouraged to read some of his work now

And,even if you are not happy,that great verbal and eloquent Krishnamurti would be my last choice for anything. When I was a teenager I thpought he was a great master. Now, i would receive teachings from anybody but not that great guy. Too verbal, too holly, too ...

For Amelia and Willow, there's always the other Krishnamurti, if Jiddhu displeases. UG's much more of a "throw everything away" type guy. I think one of his phrases was something like "tell them there's nothing to get" or something.

I don't know. This probably isn't the thread for this, but I find myself watching less and less videos, reading less and less about these things, except for a few small things. Just sitting is also just an idea - I have no idea what it even means anymore, but I do it day after day. I remember when I first began, it was a struggle, then it was beautiful, now I have no idea. Maybe I'm just in an apathetic/sad place. The one thing I've gotten without getting anything is that there are things I do that are particular to me and that I like doing and some of that includes trying to be nice to other people.

I don't even know what to throw away anymore, which probably means I'm so far from what Dogen calls having the way-seeking mind, like a hawk trying to fly to the moon.

Anyway, all I meant to say was that these guys are both working from very different traditions than that of zen.

UG is no better than Krishnamurti. They both could well be enlightened but they belong to the non-dual school where they say you don't need to practice or do anything and you are already enlightened. Well we may be enlightened already but it takes some practice to realize that. As my previous teacher says, even though the journey is from here to here, there is a distance to be traveled.

UG is no better than Krishnamurti. They both could well be enlightened but they belong to the non-dual school where they say you don't need to practice or do anything and you are already enlightened. Well we may be enlightened already but it takes some practice to realize that. As my previous teacher says, even though the journey is from here to here, there is a distance to be traveled.

Daily practice is key - I think we all feel that and understand that all the words, all the videos, all the 'teachings', all the gurus - (selfmade and created by others whether they want to be a guru or not) are not the essence of practice.

BUT - perhaps its necessary (for some of us) to go through the process of exploring, considering and then throwing out for ourselves. Maybe we waste a lot of time on the way - but that's a learning process too. Presumably our teachers also studied long and hard - walked down blind alleys and no through roads - learnt to discriminate - and understand at a deep level what it means to 'get rid of everything'.

Getting rid of everything is part of a personal journey?

I hope showing an interest in Krishnamurti doesn't necessarily mean I'm grabbing at the next new shiny toy - though I own to an element of that at times.

I'm just very interested in the historical backdrop .... and I got to all of that through the mention of Trungpa - who I hadn't even heard of

UG is no better than Krishnamurti. They both could well be enlightened but they belong to the non-dual school where they say you don't need to practice or do anything and you are already enlightened. Well we may be enlightened already but it takes some practice to realize that. As my previous teacher says, even though the journey is from here to here, there is a distance to be traveled.

yeah, I didn't mean to imply that he was better, just different, and also, neither one of them zen, but maybe that didn't come through very well. i don't give two shits about either of them. i don't know; i'm just a little tired/bored with all this "that guy's not a real teacher" thing and in the face of "ZEN GUY 4", etc. it seems a silly dance to dance. i understand the need for people to say things like, hey, we do zen here. i do understand that. and that's what i practice, too (failingly, anyway). but, i digress, and i'm reading the wrong threads maybe.

And,even if you are not happy,that great verbal and eloquent Krishnamurti would be my last choice for anything. When I was a teenager I thpought he was a great master. Now, i would receive teachings from anybody but not that great guy. Too verbal, too holly, too ...

In front of Trungpa he is but a bundle of beliefs.

In a dokusan, he is out,before opening his mouth

Please go and see for yourself. No need to believe the fool I am.

Gassho

T.

You are right: in a dokusan, he would be out before opening his mouth, and it wouldn't be any kind of mondo. He got frustrated by how confused those listening to him felt. If he considered them his students (I don't think he considered himself a teacher, but then why bother to talk so much?) he didn't make his teachings easy on them.

I have read a lot of Krishnamurti, that is true, but that was before I began practicing Zen. Krishnamurti is a peg in my philosophical knowledge and I sometimes read him when I am bored, like trying to solve a riddle, but I practice here. You told us to throw everything away, Taigu, and I have been chewing that.

thank you, taigu. this is exactly what i needed to hear right now. im curious by nature, and the advaita sounds appealing, and i love its teachings. but all in all it remains conceptualized (in me), since i dont practice it, but the concepts are always beautiful to me. and youre right, its teachings seem to be in everything now a days. right now, im full of info. all concepts. no peace.
gassho,
justin

and j. and ug, all theyre good for is stringing you along, as if they know something that you dont, but wont say what it is or how to get it. all the while condemning others for not being like them (seemingly). i used to fry my brain on the crap too..

Taigu, I just wanted to say how much this post has helped me in the months since you wrote it. I know it was in relation to a specific conversation, but it's been a great help to me in general. I've returned to it almost weekly while at work, whenever some expectation became a resentment, as they tend to do.

I know I already said it above, but if it was very helpful to me today, and I wanted to say thank you.

Thank you very much, Taigu. Just this morning, I was reflecting on how much I've changed, it's as if I do not understand The Way, I cannot even talk about it very eloquently, but it is changing me. I am calmer, and learning to take things in stride, yet even that probably needs to be thrown away, to a certain extent as well. I really appreciate this post!!

A student once asked Joshua : ‘If I haven't anything in my mind, what shall I do?'
Joshu replied: ‘Throw it out.'
'But if I haven't anything how can I throw it out?' continued the questioner.
'Well,' said Joshu, 'then carry it out.’