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ARCHIVED - Haven't we already been through this?

From the new rules:
[quote]Do not discuss unauthorized modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote]
In my philosophy of law class yesterday, we discussed why exactly laws are so complicated. Everyone interprets them differently, and their meanings change over time.
But why does this rule have to be so vague? What's the goal of the rule? To prevent people using Bungie.net to find out how to cheat? To prevent people from using this site to find out how to mod their 360? To stop all discussion on modifications?
If it's to prevent cheating, why not just combing this rule with the rule about cheating? "Detailing methods of cheating, including console modifications is not allowed".

If anybody is wondering when I finally decided to lock this increasingly inane discussion of a problem that exists only theoretically to people who already know the rules, this post is your answer.
Final answer: Your feedback has been noted, and will be filed away for use if this ever becomes a problem. At the present, it is not. Further threads on this issue will likely be ignored, and you're welcome to gnash your teeth about what a terrible person I am that I stifled your discussion about a minor rule that likely won't ever affect anybody who doesn't deserve it because of how the moderators are going to enforce it.
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll
[quote]For now, I think we're good, and we'll revisit this issue later if it becomes a real problem instead of a theoretical one.[/quote]So you admit that there [i]is[/i] a problem? Why not just reword it now and be done?[/quote]

Apple frowns upon altering/modding iPhones, yet discussion of Jailbreaking is perfectly acceptable. ;)
Now, you're assuming for starters that everyone knows that MS frowns on altering/modding 360s, and that because Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo frown upon things, clearly we shouldn't talk about it. That's daft, no? Should Bungie's rules contain everything every manufacturer frowns upon?
We [i]understand[/i] what the rule currently says, or at least what the web team intend it to say (even though, in fairness, it doesn't quite say that). It's simply wrong still.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Primum Agmen
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Telec
This is why they ban people from XBL for it, this is why they void warranty for it, this is why they make it illegal to install your own HDD onto xbox slims.
MS don't like Xbox modding, so regardless of what legal rights they have, don't talk about it. In public.[/quote]Bungie is an independent company, making the point about MS rather odd.[/quote]
Microsoft frowns upon altering/modding the console, there for Bungie's rule, based on MS's shindig, frowns upon it too. Rather than have specific things listed, everything is frowned upon.
It's really not that hard to understand people. All of this debate is unnecessary.
[Edited on 01.26.2011 9:50 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Telec
This is why they ban people from XBL for it, this is why they void warranty for it, this is why they make it illegal to install your own HDD onto xbox slims.
MS don't like Xbox modding, so regardless of what legal rights they have, don't talk about it. In public.[/quote]Bungie is an independent company, making the point about MS rather odd. Additionally, it's not 'illegal' to install your own HDD into an Xbox 360. You certainly won't be able to use Xbox Live afterwards, but it's most definitely not illegal. Who cares about the statement of intent?
The burden of regulation was [i]always[/i] on the web team. 'Unauthorised' without a rather significant list of what each manufacturer has 'authorised' basically means 'PM a ninja and hope they can clear it up for you before you start a topic'. This way you just cut out the confusion (as it basically meant 'Yeah, don't discuss mods of any sort') and establish that, yes, the webteam will allow discussion of certain mods, but only ones they deem acceptable. Either you say 'all discussion of mods is forbidden' or you leave the leeway in the rule up to the webteam. It's fairly straight forward, dear.
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09[/quote]You, like Telec, are confusing the 'service' (XBL, Wii Network) with the console. So long as you are not accessing the service, you are welcome to do as you please with the console. However, when accessing the service you are required to only have used authorised repairs and so on, as you are buying a service, not a commodity. Either you comply with their code of conduct, or the contractual agreement is broken. Part of that agreement is that you only get your console repaired by authorised companies/people/whatever, another is that you do not tamper with the hardware.
As for Jailbreaking, that's actually covered by an exemption in the DMCA. :P While Apple may view Jailbreaking as an unauthorised modification (although, the question of 'service' becomes somewhat blurry here), it's been ruled to be within fair use. I'm fairly sure that Apple isn't allowed to brick your iPhone in response (as that would be a violation of the contract, much as Microsoft isn't allowed to disable 360s that are modded, only blacklist them from XBL), though whether they could refuse to update your phone or refuse to allow you access to the App Store is another question entirely. I'd generally assume that, yes, they would be within their rights to do that. EULAs are of questionable enforcement in courts of law (they are, yet they aren't. It depends whether they are unconscionable, generally, or whether the wording of the EULA infringes on the customers basic rights of ownership.), so unfortunately they're not iron clad guidelines either.
While this may well be the 'established wording', it's also fundamentally wrong to apply the wording to hardware, rather than access to a service. Applying the rules of services to discussion on Bungie.net rather than applying an internally coherent set of rules doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Saying 'we control everything, you have no rights, play nice' and then saying 'well, uh, yeah, don't do anything that these services don't like' is just bloody silly. It makes a hell of a lot more sense just to let the web team decide which modifications they think are cool, interesting or likely to be good for the community to discuss, rather than saying you can discuss anything allowed by however many services you wish to choose. That's at least three - PSN, XBL, Wii Network.
But, yes, the rules are much better than they were before. This is pretty much the only rule there's a slight niggle about that I can see, and it's definitely a hell of a lot shorter.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hobo Grunt
i'm even more confused.
So even though there's no such thing as "unauthorized modification", just what Microsoft doesn't approve of, we can't talk about ANY hardware & software modification, even though microsoft does approve of some of it? Or can we talk about kinect hacks & windows phone 7 or iphone jailbreaks?[/quote]Um...no talk about modding period is the intent of the rule. It's just the rule doesn't say what it's mean to say. lol. That's all.

i know that people would kill for this lifestyle, im looking forward to the memories of rite now, never forgetting from where i came, and no matter where im headed i promise to stay the same
no modification talk, get over it lol
im still trying :'(

i'm even more confused.
So even though there's no such thing as "unauthorized modification", just what Microsoft doesn't approve of, we can't talk about ANY hardware & software modification, even though microsoft does approve of some of it? Or can we talk about kinect hacks & windows phone 7 or iphone jailbreaks?
lol i [i]was[/i] confused
[Edited on 01.26.2011 10:22 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll
Don't be so ridiculous. There's wording, and then there's just being downright [i]wrong.[/i] Unless that mistake is remedied, the rule is ridiculous.
'You have been banned for discussing unauthorised modification.'
'My modifications don't require any authorisation beyond my self.'
'Durr'.[/quote]So long as you aren't connected to "the Service". lol

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
The NOS Sticker on my Xbox makes my Spartan run quicker..[/quote]
That would be freakin' awesome.
[quote]It depends on where you put the sticker, if and when you send your xbox for repairs I know for a fact they will send it back not repaired if the sticker makes it unacceptable to open the xbox up to do the needed repairs. So yes it is a modification that can alter your experience. But I don't think it is classified as "hardware" like your hard drive of disk drive. [/quote]Nope, I have worked with computers for years and even became the xbox technician at the place I worked. The casing is actually considered a technical peice of hardware.[/quote]
I stand corrected. So they can refuse the repairs to your xbox to the discretion of the Technician
And ya that would be fricken awesomesauce if NOS stickers worked like that.

Don't be so ridiculous. There's wording, and then there's just being downright [i]wrong.[/i] Unless that mistake is remedied, the rule is ridiculous.
'You have been banned for discussing unauthorised modification.'
'My modifications don't require any authorisation beyond my self.'
'Durr'.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker
So wait, according to the XBL TOU you referenced, in section 12 it states...
[quote]Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, [b]modify[/b], further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game, application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited...[/quote]So, according to you, the TOU states what's prohibited. Yet also according to you, making an aesthetic modification is not unauthorized? Yet your own source says "Any attempt to...modify..."
So..wait, am I mistaken or am I experiencing another situation in which a mod is talking in circles? I'm confused. It's unauthorized but it's not unauthorized even though my source says it's unauthorized and even though you say it's not unauthorized it's a bannable offense to even talk about aesthetic modifications? My god, I'm confused as hell.
Is talking about any of these modifications against the rules in bungie? Yes or no? If no, get rid of the friggen rule. If Yes, then change the rule to "Any discussion of modifications is prohibited."
Dear lord, is it that hard?[/quote]Last I checked, the outside case of the Xbox and any stickers placed on said case are not accessible to XBL.
Edit: Actually, would the casing even be considered "hardware?"[/quote]
The NOS Sticker on my Xbox makes my Spartan run quicker..[/quote]
That would be freakin' awesome.
[quote]It depends on where you put the sticker, if and when you send your xbox for repairs I know for a fact they will send it back not repaired if the sticker makes it unacceptable to open the xbox up to do the needed repairs. So yes it is a modification that can alter your experience. But I don't think it is classified as "hardware" like your hard drive of disk drive. [/quote]Nope, I have worked with computers for years and even became the xbox technician at the place I worked. The casing is actually considered a technical peice of hardware.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker
So wait, according to the XBL TOU you referenced, in section 12 it states...
[quote]Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, [b]modify[/b], further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game, application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited...[/quote]So, according to you, the TOU states what's prohibited. Yet also according to you, making an aesthetic modification is not unauthorized? Yet your own source says "Any attempt to...modify..."
So..wait, am I mistaken or am I experiencing another situation in which a mod is talking in circles? I'm confused. It's unauthorized but it's not unauthorized even though my source says it's unauthorized and even though you say it's not unauthorized it's a bannable offense to even talk about aesthetic modifications? My god, I'm confused as hell.
Is talking about any of these modifications against the rules in bungie? Yes or no? If no, get rid of the friggen rule. If Yes, then change the rule to "Any discussion of modifications is prohibited."
Dear lord, is it that hard?[/quote]Last I checked, the outside case of the Xbox and any stickers placed on said case are not accessible to XBL.
Edit: Actually, would the casing even be considered "hardware?"[/quote]
The NOS Sticker on my Xbox makes my Spartan run quicker..
It depends on where you put the sticker, if and when you send your xbox for repairs I know for a fact they will send it back not repaired if the sticker makes it unacceptable to open the xbox up to do the needed repairs. So yes it is a modification that can alter your experience. But I don't think it is classified as "hardware" like your hard drive of disk drive.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker
So wait, according to the XBL TOU you referenced, in section 12 it states...
[quote]Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, [b]modify[/b], further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game, application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited...[/quote]So, according to you, the TOU states what's prohibited. Yet also according to you, making an aesthetic modification is not unauthorized? Yet your own source says "Any attempt to...modify..."
So..wait, am I mistaken or am I experiencing another situation in which a mod is talking in circles? I'm confused. It's unauthorized but it's not unauthorized even though my source says it's unauthorized and even though you say it's not unauthorized it's a bannable offense to even talk about aesthetic modifications? My god, I'm confused as hell.
Is talking about any of these modifications against the rules in bungie? Yes or no? If no, get rid of the friggen rule. If Yes, then change the rule to "Any discussion of modifications is prohibited."
Dear lord, is it that hard?[/quote]Last I checked, the outside case of the Xbox and any stickers placed on said case are not accessible to XBL.
Edit: Actually, would the casing even be considered "hardware?"[/quote]Actually, yes, it would be. When talking about the hardware required for a computer, the case is, in fact, considered hardware. Thusly the same could be said for the xbox.
EDIT: I take that back. I think I'm arguing because I'm pissed now and that's it. I honestly don't care anymore about the terminology of the rule, I'm just pissed because I'm getting circular logic as a response to at least mildly logical arguments.
EDIT AGAIN: Wow, -blam!- that one up. Going too fast.
[Edited on 01.26.2011 6:54 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Stacker
So wait, according to the XBL TOU you referenced, in section 12 it states...
[quote]Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, [b]modify[/b], further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game, application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited...[/quote]So, according to you, the TOU states what's prohibited. Yet also according to you, making an aesthetic modification is not unauthorized? Yet your own source says "Any attempt to...modify..."
So..wait, am I mistaken or am I experiencing another situation in which a mod is talking in circles? I'm confused. It's unauthorized but it's not unauthorized even though my source says it's unauthorized and even though you say it's not unauthorized it's a bannable offense to even talk about aesthetic modifications? My god, I'm confused as hell.
Is talking about any of these modifications against the rules in bungie? Yes or no? If no, get rid of the friggen rule. If Yes, then change the rule to "Any discussion of modifications is prohibited."
Dear lord, is it that hard?[/quote]Last I checked, the outside case of the Xbox and any stickers placed on said case are not accessible to XBL.
Edit: Actually, would the casing even be considered "hardware?"
[Edited on 01.26.2011 6:46 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
Well thanks Stacker, for confusing the bloody -blam!- outta me lol. I deem this minute a smoke break... and I will try to understand your last post... [/quote]lol.
Short version: This mod just confused me by talking in circles and it officially pissed me off. If it's against the rules to talk about modifications, change the rule to "no talking about mods" (WITHOUT the inclusion of "authorized"). If not, then get rid of the rule.
[Edited on 01.26.2011 6:43 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
- [b]You are prohibited from discussing any[/b] modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote]People may discuss putting stickers on their Xbox cases, that is not an unauthorized modification.[/quote]So wait, according to the XBL TOU you referenced, in section 12 it states...
[quote]Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, [b]modify[/b], further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game, application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited...[/quote]So, according to you, the TOU states what's prohibited. Yet also according to you, making an aesthetic modification is not unauthorized? Yet your own source says "Any attempt to...modify..."
So..wait, am I mistaken or am I experiencing another situation in which a mod is talking in circles? I'm confused. It's unauthorized but it's not unauthorized even though my source says it's unauthorized and even though you say it's not unauthorized it's a bannable offense to even talk about aesthetic modifications? My god, I'm confused as hell.
Is talking about any of these modifications against the rules in bungie? Yes or no? If no, get rid of the friggen rule. If Yes, then change the rule to "Any discussion of modifications is prohibited."
Dear lord, is it that hard?
[Edited on 01.26.2011 6:38 PM PST]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
- [b]You are prohibited from discussing any[/b] modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote]People may discuss putting stickers on their Xbox cases, that is not an unauthorized modification.[/quote]
here once more...
- [b]You are prohibited from discussing any[/b] modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate. (artistic modification to the exterior parts of your xbox or your game cases are welcome.)
Well as much as that was a joke, it would push the point across much more efficiently. Yet is still very simplistic.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
My goodness! The whole point was to shorten the rules, not lengthen them![/quote]By trying to write 'no discussion of modding' into the rules you've entered a semantic minefield. My suggestion was to refer to the rules through a hyperlink, not to quote them all there on the page.
[quote]And this doesn't just apply to Xbox, it also applies to PS3, Wii, Dreamcast, etc.; to quote the specific unauthorized modifications of each and every game console that has ever existed would be quite silly considering it can be handled in two words.[/quote]Which is why I specified 'of the nature specified in the XBL TOU', which I did not say is applicable to the xbox only.
Basically the idea is to take the wording of the XBL TOU, and apply that wording to all consoles etc for the purposes of writing the rules of these forums.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
- [b]You are prohibited from discussing any[/b] modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote]People may discuss putting stickers on their Xbox cases, that is not an unauthorized modification.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll
Then why not point that out in the rules?
'Discussions of modifications the nature of which are specified within the XBL terms of use may be locked without notice and should be avoided', for instance.[/quote]Because we would then just be telling them to look at the XBL ToU so they can read "unauthorized modification?"[/quote]
This would work
- [b]You are prohibited from discussing any[/b] modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.
Problem solved. [/quote]QFT, dmbfan. This actually makes more sense than what's out there.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] dmbfan09
[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll
Then why not point that out in the rules?
'Discussions of modifications the nature of which are specified within the XBL terms of use may be locked without notice and should be avoided', for instance.[/quote]Because we would then just be telling them to look at the XBL ToU so they can read "unauthorized modification?"[/quote]
This would work
- [b]You are prohibited from discussing any[/b] modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.
Problem solved.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Terror Troll
No, you wouldn't, you'd be quoting...[quote]You must not:
* use the Service to harm others or the Service (for example, you must not use the Service to harm, threaten, or harass another person, organization or Microsoft);
* damage, disable, overburden, or impair the Service (or any network connected to the Service);
* resell or redistribute the Service or any part of it; use any means we don't authorize to modify, reroute, or gain access to the Service or attempt to carry out these activities;
* use the Service for commercial purposes (except as expressly permitted by us);
* use any automated process or service (such as a bot, a spider, a scraper, periodic caching of information stored by Microsoft, or "meta-searching") to access or use the Service or copy or "scrape" data on the Service;
* use any unauthorized third-party software, service, or device to access the Service;
* disrupt, or try to gain unauthorized access to any account, computer, hardware, or network related to the Service;
* obtain (or try to obtain) any data from the Service or related hardware, except data that we intend to provide or make available to you;
* use the Service or related hardware to design, develop, or update unauthorized software;
* use or distribute unauthorized cheats, macros, or scripts; or
* exploit a bug, or make an unauthorized modification, to any software or data to gain unfair advantage in a game, contest, or promotion.
[/quote]which is a list of specific rules. [/quote]Specificity is exactly what is trying to be avoided with the updated rules. Plus, that doesn't say anything about PS3 or iPhone modifications, among others, unlike the current rule, which covers all platforms.