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Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Originally Posted by Haloti92

As I have said before, I think the evidence we have (or do not have) better supports the theory that Jared is doing all he can to avoid practice, and is certainly not doing all he can to get back to practice, and this involves him persistently claiming he is too injured to practice. The alternative, that he is really a hard working guy who has always enjoyed practice, but has a very rare, impossible-to-find major injury, that refuses to heal, that is at its worst when practice is taking place, that is at its best when he needs to look for a new contract, that shows no signs of improvement after weeks and weeks of treatment, etc, is much less supported by the evidence (even if it is possibly the case).

Or, there is another alternative as I present it.
He has a semi-major intermittent problme with his back, that he milks to get out of practice. I'm not going to try and say he is a hard worker when he is not. I'm not claiming he isn't lazy when we know he is. I'm just saying the chances this is ALL a figment of his imagination isn't that likely.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Ahh the Gaither games...thank God the Ravens don't have to deal with his crazy ass anymore.

I just wish he was a healthy and motivated Human being, because when he is, he would be BY FAR the best option for this team at LT, and it's not even remotely close.

It's too bad, that a lack of motivation, coupled with a dodgy back has wrought havoc on his career. what a waste of talent and ability.

Every argument I EVER made for the dude included the "healthy and motivated" caveat. which appears to happen as often as a cowboys playoff victory these days. Where most people depart my company is that I still hold the ravens FO/coaching staff PARTIALLY accountable for the disappearance of THAT Jared Gaither.

Again, all this minutiae on his "injury" and nothing from his supporters about his long history of dogging it.

Convenient.

Look, it's either he's been a lazy POS or has a legit, serious back issue.

Either way, it's great he's gone.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Again, all this minutiae on his "injury" and nothing from his supporters about his long history of dogging it.

Convenient.

Look, it's either he's been a lazy POS or has a legit, serious back issue.

Either way, it's great he's gone.

umm really? read my posts... I think I'm the only one supporting him and I jsut called him a lazy unmotivated waste of talent and ability....

And it's NOT jsu teither/or. He could very well be a Lazy/POS with a serious back injury. whatever the case, we can all agree he is wasting the prime of his very promising career on the sidelines. In his current state of phsical and mental health, even I wouldn't want him back. Healthy and motivated? the majority of the league would want him at LT. May never happen again, but it might...

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Originally Posted by jonboy79

Or, there is another alternative as I present it.
He has a semi-major intermittent problme with his back, that he milks to get out of practice. I'm not going to try and say he is a hard worker when he is not. I'm not claiming he isn't lazy when we know he is. I'm just saying the chances this is ALL a figment of his imagination isn't that likely.

It doesn't really matter if it ALL is a figment of his imagination. All that matters is that Gaither is saying he is too hurt to practice when he is not. Whether his back feels perfectly fine and has never ever been hurt, or it feels fine but used to hurt, or feels slightly sore everytime he works out doesn't matter (to me), they all mean he is refusing to practice when he should.

I do think the evidence points away from the intermittent problem because he doesn't even come back every few days/weeks and he shows no sign of improvement in the meantime (despite fully resting it and getting max treatment). There is never any timetable on a return. "Rest until it feels better" is normally a short-term solution, and it normally involves a gradual improvement until the return. Gaither is in long-term absence mode, and does not make any progress towards a return. He is in "check with me and maybe I'll go today" mode, where the team cannot even vaguely make any plans for his return.

I guess I would say your alternative (slightly or occasionally milking) is obviously possible, but I think the evidence somewhat belies that alternative as well.

I also think there is no chance we are going to get the Chargers real feelings on the situation for the same reason we didn't get the Ravens real feelings on the issue while Gaither was here (and only got hints afterwards). As long as they are stuck with him and he has a future there, they will never publicly (or even privately) question his injury or work ethic; it wouldn't help and would very likely make things drastically worse.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

See, but how many people with major back problmes, EVER get better... Serious back problmes seem to be lifetime ailments that come and go, and even major surgeries don't SEEM to fix the problem forever. At least anyone I know with chronic back issues, at least have those issues on and off forever.

A back isn't like a knee... it's not all black and white, and in fact it's more like always gray...

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

I just wish he was a healthy and motivated Human being, because when he is, he would be BY FAR the best option for this team at LT, and it's not even remotely close.

It's too bad, that a lack of motivation, coupled with a dodgy back has wrought havoc on his career. what a waste of talent and ability.

Every argument I EVER made for the dude included the "healthy and motivated" caveat. which appears to happen as often as a cowboys playoff victory these days. Where most people depart my company is that I still hold the ravens FO/coaching staff PARTIALLY accountable for the disappearance of THAT Jared Gaither.

I agree. They should have found a way to keep him working hard on the field between tokes. And the Chargers figured he would live in CA also known as little amsterdam without getting a medical mj card?

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Originally Posted by jonboy79

See, but how many people with major back problmes, EVER get better... Serious back problmes seem to be lifetime ailments that come and go, and even major surgeries don't SEEM to fix the problem forever. At least anyone I know with chronic back issues, at least have those issues on and off forever.

A back isn't like a knee... it's not all black and white, and in fact it's more like always gray...

Most healthy people with major back injuries get better. Most back injuries can be objectively diagnosed assuming expense is no object. In most cases, expense is an object in treating back injuries. Most "chronic" cases of back problems are a result of neglected treatment (failing to strengthen the area, failing to lose weight), old age (disc degeneration, osteoporosis), and are relatively minor (in terms of the level of debilitation) even if painful.

I obviously agree that the back is more grey than a knee, which is why a mysterious back injury makes more sense than a mysterious knee/foot injury if one is going to use mysterious injuries to avoid practice.

Again, I am dealing with probabilites not possibilities. Sure Gaither could have an extremely rare, debilitating, back aliment/disease/syndrome that does not show up on scans and does not respond to rest or money-no-object treatment. Maybe when they figure out what it is they will name it after him.

But I put these odds below the odds that an established-as-lazy player is simply not interested in practice/work, and, since he cannot simply sit out without explanation (at least not without losing his paychecks), said player is claiming he is seriously injured to get out of the practice/work.

Obviously you assess the evidence and odds differently. No worries, we agree to disagree.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Originally Posted by Haloti92

Most healthy people with major back injuries get better. Most back injuries can be objectively diagnosed assuming expense is no object. In most cases, expense is an object in treating back injuries. Most "chronic" cases of back problems are a result of neglected treatment (failing to strengthen the area, failing to lose weight), old age (disc degeneration, osteoporosis), and are relatively minor (in terms of the level of debilitation) even if painful.

I obviously agree that the back is more grey than a knee, which is why a mysterious back injury makes more sense than a mysterious knee/foot injury if one is going to use mysterious injuries to avoid practice.

Again, I am dealing with probabilites not possibilities. Sure Gaither could have an extremely rare, debilitating, back aliment/disease/syndrome that does not show up on scans and does not respond to rest or money-no-object treatment. Maybe when they figure out what it is they will name it after him.

But I put these odds below the odds that an established-as-lazy player is simply not interested in practice/work, and, since he cannot simply sit out without explanation (at least not without losing his paychecks), said player is claiming he is seriously injured to get out of the practice/work.

Obviously you assess the evidence and odds differently. No worries, we agree to disagree.

The gap between our opinions has narrowed, so i guess successful discussion was found.

I'm not sure why he would voluntarily sit out of games though, which appears possible if not probable.
I would buy that his recurring back problems could be due tocontinued poor conditioning. It could even be his stomach muscles are too weak, and he hasn't put the effort into remedying that.

I don't think it has to be that "mysterious" though. They are calling it spasms, as in muscular issues, which could easily be fleeting and hard to diagnose/find. I guess i jsut don't find it odd that a 6'9" 350 lb young man that pounds on his body for a living and is NOT known for being a gym rat and is known for being lazy has chronic back issues.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Originally Posted by jonboy79

The gap between our opinions has narrowed, so i guess successful discussion was found.

I'm not sure why he would voluntarily sit out of games though, which appears possible if not probable.
I would buy that his recurring back problems could be due tocontinued poor conditioning. It could even be his stomach muscles are too weak, and he hasn't put the effort into remedying that.

I don't think it has to be that "mysterious" though. They are calling it spasms, as in muscular issues, which could easily be fleeting and hard to diagnose/find. I guess i jsut don't find it odd that a 6'9" 350 lb young man that pounds on his body for a living and is NOT known for being a gym rat and is known for being lazy has chronic back issues.

I actually thought he would come back for week 1, assuming he was a gamer, and after playing the game he would get into a "play game, become too hurt on Monday from playing the game to practice for several days, feel better right before next game" rhythm to avoid practice.

But he gets paid regardless of playing the games, and he really doesn't have to play in too many games (assuming he plays well, and I think he would) this year for San Diego to keep him for next year when he is due another $4.5M. It also probably looks fishier if his injury perfectly matched up with the preseason.

And even if they released him and bit the bullet, he could just claim himself to be "finally" healthy, point to his game tape, age, size, etc and get another desperate/gambling team to shell out some decent money (obviously not spectacular money, but Jared seems satisfied with decent money for no work).

I think in this case back spasms = general term for inexplicable pain in the back. He is consulting with doctor after doctor as if his ailment is still a mystery and undiagnosed. This makes sense considering even back spasms respond to rest and treatment (ice/heat, muscle relaxants, anti-inflammatories, weightlifting), usually heal enough to give it a try in a matter of days not weeks/months, and Gaither isn't getting better then getting re-injured frequently, he is just permanently injured with no timetable on a return.

I just don't find it odd that a guy who is known to be lazy when it comes to practice is doing what he needs to do (saying he is too hurt to play regardless of whether it is true) in order to get out of the work. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what is said when he finally comes back. I expect it to be sudden and lacking in details/explanation (much like the whole situation).

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

Anyone can go to the ER or Doctor and say they feel this or have these symtoms which could mean I have this. Its the Drs job to do tests to see if they patient has anything serious related to the "symtoms" he says he has. If there is nothing serious then they do less invasive tests to see what the deal is. If they dont see anything then it basicly shows the player or paitent is making stuff up. Once all the CT/MRI/Bloodwork comes back negative for any injury its clear there is nothing wrong as almost any Illness or Injury will come up on a MRI/CT scan and Bloodwork will check on everything else.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

I think we can all agree on two points when it comes to Gaither.

1. He can be a dominant player at times
2. You can't rely on his availability

The unreliability goes all the way back to him having to attend Hargrave Military just to get into college -- and then basically getting thrown out of college when his team needed him most. His athleticism goes all the way back to his having been offered a basketball scholarship to play and South Carolina.

The guy is an enigma. Which is why there is always a long thread whenever there is a post here about him.

If he's on your team, you want to believe the unreliability stems from issues beyond his control. I know I tried to rationalize that he was too talented to give up on. But after so many issues over so many years, it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

He's sitting on $9 Million that NOBODY can take away - and all he has to do for it is get up in the morning. No concussions, no torn ACL, no bruises, no broken bones - no sweat.

Sooner or later the Charges will get tired of it and they will cut him. Some other team will pick him up and put him on a minimum vet contract - at which point he will play his ass off for 16 games. At that point he will sign another long term contract with another large guarantee (lets say another $9 Million) and the cycle will repeat - the mysterious back injury will reappear again.

The ONLY question is how many times can he do this. I think at least one more - maybe two more times - after which he will retire a wealthy man.

Originally Posted by Shas

I think we can all agree on two points when it comes to Gaither.

1. He can be a dominant player at times
2. You can't rely on his availability

The unreliability goes all the way back to him having to attend Hargrave Military just to get into college -- and then basically getting thrown out of college when his team needed him most. His athleticism goes all the way back to his having been offered a basketball scholarship to play and South Carolina.

The guy is an enigma. Which is why there is always a long thread whenever there is a post here about him.

If he's on your team, you want to believe the unreliability stems from issues beyond his control. I know I tried to rationalize that he was too talented to give up on. But after so many issues over so many years, it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Gaither Back Spasms

He's sitting on $9 Million that NOBODY can take away - and all he has to do for it is get up in the morning. No concussions, no torn ACL, no bruises, no broken bones - no sweat.

Sooner or later the Charges will get tired of it and they will cut him. Some other team will pick him up and put him on a minimum vet contract - at which point he will play his ass off for 16 games. At that point he will sign another long term contract with another large guarantee (lets say another $9 Million) and the cycle will repeat - the mysterious back injury will reappear again.

The ONLY question is how many times can he do this. I think at least one more - maybe two more times - after which he will retire a wealthy man.

I'm not buying the strategy. Easily the optimal strategy if his health was completely within his control would have been to play well in 2010. He had played at a very high level for 2 years and would have been due a monster deal. By "faking" the injury, he set himself back a full year and was at risk of never getting any guaranteed money.

So long story short, I don't think he was faking injury.

What's the real story? I doubt we'll ever hear the entire truth, but he's been the most disappointing single Raven in their history in my mind. Yes, worse than Boller, Taylor, Deron Jenkins, or Dan Cody, none of whom had nearly as much talent.

I rode home on the plane Friday and we heard a young man in the seat behind us explaining his reasons why he couldn't join the peace corps. His central reason was that he didn't like their drug-testing policy and thought they should have no business testing him for marajuana when they were sending him into a hazardous situation like teaching English in Africa. He said he was going to try law school since he'd heard law firms "don't usually do drug testing".

I'm not saying Gaither's problem was specifically drugs or anything else for that matter, but I've encountered a handful of talented young people I would never be able to save from themselves because their view of the world is so contrary to their own best interests. I'm afraid Gaither may be one of those.