Not sure what LFR you've been in where healers/DPS doing stupid shit don't get kicked quicker than immediate or verbally assaulted immediately. I imagine that's a good LFR compared to what I've seen.

Not sure what kind of lfr YOU've been... SoO LFr for what I saw (doing it on at least 3 alt per week) is a wipe fest on every single boss (outside the first two). Usually after 4-6 determination stack boss die with 5 to 20 baddies dead and raid continue to the next boss, without a single remark on the people dying on the first retardproof AoE.

The only kick you may see is : people afking while dead, tank beyond trash level (the only time I saw a tank kick was on Galakras a DK who was totally unable to maintain threat on more than one mob).

Even right now as I'm writing, I wiped on Malkorok because of every single melee were behind the boss in the cleave phase (caster killed, then tank killed, then wipe). Not a single of the melee were kicked. One tank leaved and we are wainting for a new one for the next wipe (because clearly 1 determination is not enough with abysmal DPS, having 3 ret under 70k for exemple)

If all amazingly bad players were directly kicked as you may think, LFR wouldn't be a problem as it is now. Wipe once, kick the bad, clean the rest would be the common LFR. It's sadly absolutly not the reality (at least here in EU LFR, may be different in US ?)

Not sure what kind of lfr YOU've been... SoO LFr for what I saw (doing it on at least 3 alt per week) is a wipe fest on every single boss (outside the first two). Usually after 4-6 determination stack boss die with 5 to 20 baddies dead and raid continue to the next boss, without a single remark on the people dying on the first retardproof AoE.

The only kick you may see is : people afking while dead, tank beyond trash level (the only time I saw a tank kick was on Galakras a DK who was totally unable to maintain threat on more than one mob).

Even right now as I'm writing, I wiped on Malkorok because of every single melee were behind the boss in the cleave phase (caster killed, then tank killed, then wipe). Not a single of the melee were kicked. One tank leaved and we are wainting for a new one for the next wipe (because clearly 1 determination is not enough with abysmal DPS, having 3 ret under 70k for exemple)

If all amazingly bad players were directly kicked as you may think, LFR wouldn't be a problem as it is now. Wipe once, kick the bad, clean the rest would be the common LFR. It's sadly absolutly not the reality (at least here in EU LFR, may be different in US ?)

I think WoW has a design problem for all these years that, incredibly, someone solved, and it was Rift. In rift you have 8 skill trees for each of the 4 classes, from which you choose 3 to be your real talents.

However, almost every class is capable of tanking, healing and DPSing, depending on their talents, AND they use the same gear to do all those functions. So, if you are a healer paladin, for example, your Int is your mana pool, chance to crit with spells, etc etc etc. If you then switch up to dps paladin, your int (through talents), becomes the equivalent to your strength, empowering your strikes. If you change to Tank paladin, your int becomes atk power and your wis more stamina (or something like that). This way, you only need one gear to perform all the tasks your class should be able to perform. This way certainly more people would tolarate to tank, knowing that whatever gear they get while tanking is also usable to dps later on, if they so choose to.

The question is, everyone likes to deal some damage from time to time, and requiring completely opposite gears for each of the tasks a class can perform sux, makes you wish to stay in your main role forever, and if you like to deal damage, you certainly are not going to farm 300 tank items just to tank so you can make more dungeons and therefore get more dps items faster... if they made items useful for all specs, I believe this problem would be solved... I would love to tank as Shaman, but I dont think its needed, and even if I could, If I needed to regear completely to do it, I would still be dps...

I think WoW has a design problem for all these years that, incredibly, someone solved, and it was Rift. In rift you have 8 skill trees for each of the 4 classes, from which you choose 3 to be your real talents.

However, almost every class is capable of tanking, healing and DPSing, depending on their talents, AND they use the same gear to do all those functions. So, if you are a healer paladin, for example, your Int is your mana pool, chance to crit with spells, etc etc etc. If you then switch up to dps paladin, your int (through talents), becomes the equivalent to your strength, empowering your strikes. If you change to Tank paladin, your int becomes atk power and your wis more stamina (or something like that). This way, you only need one gear to perform all the tasks your class should be able to perform. This way certainly more people would tolarate to tank, knowing that whatever gear they get while tanking is also usable to dps later on, if they so choose to.

The question is, everyone likes to deal some damage from time to time, and requiring completely opposite gears for each of the tasks a class can perform sux, makes you wish to stay in your main role forever, and if you like to deal damage, you certainly are not going to farm 300 tank items just to tank so you can make more dungeons and therefore get more dps items faster... if they made items useful for all specs, I believe this problem would be solved... I would love to tank as Shaman, but I dont think its needed, and even if I could, If I needed to regear completely to do it, I would still be dps...

I'm worry, I'm sure it's great for you, but in my opinion, Rift is/was just awful. Everything about it.

1. Stop doing raidfinder, problem solved.
2. Sign up for all the raidfinders you need and you will wait 30 minutes for the first one and rest will pop instantly.
3. Get friends who wants to come on their tanks, instant queue.
4. Hope Blizzard removes raidfinder from the game and actually force players to be good to see content. Just like I never got to see the last level in Super Mario 3 as a kid because I was bad at it.

Here is why people do not tank LFR much anymore. Me and a few friends stopped tanking when every single wipe we would get blamed. I used to tank for a top 50 guild, so I know it wasn't the lack of skill. Tanks do not have to put up with it. We take the deserter and get into the next one. If people weren't such douche bags and took responsibility for their own stupidity, there would be more tanks. LFR as a tank is NO FUN, so why do it?

I'm a tank through and through. Tanked since TBC. Tanked with every tank class out there so much so I lvled a lock first week to testdrive its new tanking capabilities only to find out I can't taunt in raid. Been to some UE BL top 3/10/20 guilds in progression grps. I was a frequent flier on LFR even though when coming after a break I asked what LFR was, got "its like lfd but with 24 casuals bitching about everything" I had my doubts for over 5 weeks before trying it. I stopped tanking LFR with my chars the day blizz introduced loot spec. Now I dropped LFR all together because compared to flex it offers little to no reward (last time I did it got LITERALLY ONE item on 3 chars and it was a downgrade) and A LOT more of the hardships both compared. What IMO killed tank attendance was a mix of ignorant pricks blaming ppl for not carrying them through, anonymity allowing ppl to be said pricks even when well behaving on a day to day basis, dumbing down every aspect depriving good players of any challenge and fun from besting it and introducing way too much side activities to be able to run lfr+flex+regular+rep+dailies+... on 3+ twinks over the week. Oh, and the last nail to tank attendance in lfr was introducing flex where you get better gear, all the pros of reg runs and lfr combined and none of the cons of afore mentioned thus forcing a less casual players to resign from some activities, namely lfr, in favor of flex also allowing to help guildies gear up. So... What you need is a trade - trade of goods/emotions/entertainment for players' time/expertise. Now in this grunts' humble opinion there are few possible solutions (some of them mentioned already) to bring back the better geared/experienced tanks back to lfr (cuz' lets face it lads - you don't want to just fill the spots with inexperienced rerollers - you want the good stuff):

- bringing back the challenge: lowering the tolerance of the encounters so that they might still be fun for better gamers and offer satisfaction if not on their well outgearing the content chars then at least on their twinks trading in their time for the entertainment - that move also requires to redesign kicking mechs so that one a-hole couldn't lock 24 other ppl on some simple mechanic because he got kicked too many times (Blizz, for gods' sake, if guy gets booted more then once it doesn't mean community is bad, mean, elitist and unfair, it means THE poor SAP is bad, either under-performing gearwise or being a rude prick or hoping for a handout or... well you've got to get the point by now).

- more meaningful rewards for completing the wing - maybe a 50/50 rare mount otherwise requiring long rep/dng/etc grinding or more gratifying raiding supplements (feasts/more SPEC SPECIFIC flasks and enough gold to actually COVER all the expenses say... multiple wipes in 560+ gear = n*30-40g/wipe just so you know ) cuz' yea! I said it! We DESERVE it having to deal with impatience, ignorance and overall toxicity of lfr. If you want to take an easy way out and ignore the state of lfr community "pay" us for entertaining your crowd since they pay you for the same service that you're just outsourcing.

- reorganizing social aspects of lfrs - making ppl less anonymous/more responsible for their actions: account-wide thumps up and down system, where ups (visible) get you a higher priority in queuing leading to good dps (aka. player) getting instant queues and thumbs down (invisible - keeps you guessing ) at say 15 leading to 72h ban reseting every content or ban and lowering the requirement(15->72h ban->10->72h ban->5->72h ban->1->72h ban->1->144h ban->(...))? You don't want to participate? Fine, do your job, don't stand out, don't be rude and you're out with status quo(you get passed by a higher rep in queue=you get +1/+10/+whatever temp rep, you get passed again= another temp rep gain and so on until its your turn). Want quicker queues? Damn boy! Represent! Be helpful, respectful, perform and you're bound to be appreciated. Start bitching? Be a thorn in raids' side? Get a chillout break time. The stick part works WONDERS in WoT and you've got nice carrot PR wise.

I'm a tank through and through. Tanked since TBC. Tanked with every tank class out there so much so I lvled a lock first week to testdrive its new tanking capabilities only to find out I can't taunt in raid. Been to some UE BL top 3/10/20 guilds in progression grps. I was a frequent flier on LFR even though when coming after a break I asked what LFR was, got "its like lfd but with 24 casuals bitching about everything" I had my doubts for over 5 weeks before trying it. I stopped tanking LFR with my chars the day blizz introduced loot spec. Now I dropped LFR all together because compared to flex it offers little to no reward (last time I did it got LITERALLY ONE item on 3 chars and it was a downgrade) and A LOT more of the hardships both compared. What IMO killed tank attendance was a mix of ignorant pricks blaming ppl for not carrying them through, anonymity allowing ppl to be said pricks even when well behaving on a day to day basis, dumbing down every aspect depriving good players of any challenge and fun from besting it and introducing way too much side activities to be able to run lfr+flex+regular+rep+dailies+... on 3+ twinks over the week. Oh, and the last nail to tank attendance in lfr was introducing flex where you get better gear, all the pros of reg runs and lfr combined and none of the cons of afore mentioned thus forcing a less casual players to resign from some activities, namely lfr, in favor of flex also allowing to help guildies gear up. So... What you need is a trade - trade of goods/emotions/entertainment for players' time/expertise. Now in this grunts' humble opinion there are few possible solutions (some of them mentioned already) to bring back the better geared/experienced tanks back to lfr (cuz' lets face it lads - you don't want to just fill the spots with inexperienced rerollers - you want the good stuff):

- bringing back the challenge: lowering the tolerance of the encounters so that they might still be fun for better gamers and offer satisfaction if not on their well outgearing the content chars then at least on their twinks trading in their time for the entertainment - that move also requires to redesign kicking mechs so that one a-hole couldn't lock 24 other ppl on some simple mechanic because he got kicked too many times (Blizz, for gods' sake, if guy gets booted more then once it doesn't mean community is bad, mean, elitist and unfair, it means THE poor SAP is bad, either under-performing gearwise or being a rude prick or hoping for a handout or... well you've got to get the point by now).

- more meaningful rewards for completing the wing - maybe a 50/50 rare mount otherwise requiring long rep/dng/etc grinding or more gratifying raiding supplements (feasts/more SPEC SPECIFIC flasks and enough gold to actually COVER all the expenses say... multiple wipes in 560+ gear = n*30-40g/wipe just so you know ) cuz' yea! I said it! We DESERVE it having to deal with impatience, ignorance and overall toxicity of lfr. If you want to take an easy way out and ignore the state of lfr community "pay" us for entertaining your crowd since they pay you for the same service that you're just outsourcing.

- reorganizing social aspects of lfrs - making ppl less anonymous/more responsible for their actions: account-wide thumps up and down system, where ups (visible) get you a higher priority in queuing leading to good dps (aka. player) getting instant queues and thumbs down (invisible - keeps you guessing ) at say 15 leading to 72h ban reseting every content or ban and lowering the requirement(15->72h ban->10->72h ban->5->72h ban->1->72h ban->1->144h ban->(...))? You don't want to participate? Fine, do your job, don't stand out, don't be rude and you're out with status quo(you get passed by a higher rep in queue=you get +1/+10/+whatever temp rep, you get passed again= another temp rep gain and so on until its your turn). Want quicker queues? Damn boy! Represent! Be helpful, respectful, perform and you're bound to be appreciated. Start bitching? Be a thorn in raids' side? Get a chillout break time. The stick part works WONDERS in WoT and you've got nice carrot PR wise.

Anyone agrees? Disagrees? Comments? Propositions?

The satchels already give a chance at rare items (still keeping them rare, believe my first ever call to arms back in cata I got baron rivendares death charger ). That should remain the same. I think however LFR should reward reputation with a given faction once per week. Make it around 1000 reputation for the LFR run and its a one shot deal that week regardless of what wing you choose.

I also think that the kick system in general needs an overhaul. We need better options on the vote kick (AFK, abusive behavior etc so the right data reaches blizzard and they can send out a reform email warning players of too many kicks and if it reaches x number they get a ban from that feature for X days as a punishment another email goes out or in game message explaining on what they have done and how to improve said behavior)

League of legends does quite well on how they deal with toxic players and I think its time blizzard caught up on them in this respect.

but in all honesty you have no reason to tank LFR, i mean is there any reward you could get out of it, certainly no meaningful gear at the point your at.

Sometimes I run with lower geared guildies (alts, casuals, etc), or just to help people. That's the kind of person I am.

For example, I did a LFR wing 1 the second week it came out. I'll be honest - it was fucking horrible. On Protectors and there was a 3 stack of Determination. I held off from starting the encounter and talked politely in raid chat to figure out what the issue was. Realizing that nobody (barring myself) knew anything about the encounter, I set down some guides and we went to town. Downed it.

Same thing with Norushen and Pride. Nobody knew what to do, so I explained what each role should do and it went relatively smoothly. Yeah, DPS sucked, but at least people were trying. We one-shot both Norushen and SPride. I was quite helpful, according to a few of the group members, and they even asked if we could trade real IDs (battle tags) in case they ever had questions. I still have them friended.

Point is, some groups don't need a heavy hand and stern tongue. They need guidance, in sort of the same way small children do. Acting like a pretentious prick (not saying you are, but many people are when they realize the "bads" don't know anything) isn't going to get you anywhere. Being nice and acting kind is going to get people to follow your advice better.

Put yourselves in their shoes; are you gonna listen to the guy saying, "OMG why are you guys doing that!? Stand out of the fucking bad and maybe we won't wipe, FFS!" Or the guy who joins and says, "So what's the issue?... Alright, here's what we're gonna do: you guys stand here, when this happens..." Make sense?

(Not directed at you, just my thoughts on that a bit.)

Originally Posted by Fleugen

I used to love tanking on my warrior, until they swapped over to the active mitigation model. I had my rage to manage, I still had to watch my health in case of a spike in damage, I still had to try and pull good damage, and I felt like a tank.

The active mitigation model just isn't fun to me. I don't feel like a warrior, balancing my defenses with my attacks. I feel like everything I do gets converted to defense. I might as well dual wield shields because it'd help me block better. I can only DPS when my procs tell me to, and I need to spend every point of rage in defensive cooldowns. Hell, I hit max rage in dungeons and raids more than I ever did when I gained rage from getting attacked, and that's sad! But if I dare hit that heroic strike at the wrong time, I won't have my defenses to keep me alive!

It made it less fun to play my warrior. I'm not balancing anything, I'm waiting for procs so I can do damage while waiting for myself to take damage so I can defend against it, all the while waiting for something interesting to happen so I can do something other than stand around. I don't feel like a tank anymore; I feel like a sentient brick wall.

I vastly prefer the new method of tanking. I've ranked since BC. And I'm not going AFK or sitting bored out of my mind on farm bosses now.

Back then, on farm bosses I could basically stack a few Sunders, go AFK for a few, come back and go, "the fuck, you guys still aren't done yet?" That didn't happen for every boss, but you can't tell me it didn't.

Now I always have something to do, with boss mechanics if not class mechanics. Especially with the changes to warriors, I'm more active than ever (more often then not, I have more revenges than I know what to do with) and even without Shield Block up (glyphed), Shield Slam often cries for well over 300k (depending on vengeance). I'm sitting at about 45-50% total avoidance and that translates to about 40-42% crit raid buffed. Warriors are more fun than they've been this entire expansion, and we're quite competitive compared to other tanks. Our defensive cooldowns are some of the most powerful in the game and our AM abilities are very versatile - no other tank has a choice between blocking or absorbing damage, Nd those abilities often lead to better routes for both damage and defense (shield block -> blocks+extra chance to parry -> more revenge spam -> more rage for shield block/barrier). It's often a runaway train.

Originally Posted by khalltusk

The satchels already give a chance at rare items (still keeping them rare, believe my first ever call to arms back in cata I got baron rivendares death charger ). That should remain the same. I think however LFR should reward reputation with a given faction once per week. Make it around 1000 reputation for the LFR run and its a one shot deal that week regardless of what wing you choose.

I also think that the kick system in general needs an overhaul. We need better options on the vote kick (AFK, abusive behavior etc so the right data reaches blizzard and they can send out a reform email warning players of too many kicks and if it reaches x number they get a ban from that feature for X days as a punishment another email goes ojut or in game message explaining on what they have done and how to improve said behavior)

League of legends does quite well on how they deal with toxic players and I think its time blizzard caught up on them in this respect.

That system sounds like a fantastic change. I think satchels need a bit more incentive for roles that are constantly in need (tanks, sometimes healers depending on battle group), but that change to the kick system sounds great. Less anomynity and that'll translate into a hopefully better overall player base.

Just tried to wait in a queue as dps on my shadow priest alt, after 30 minutes, I said fuck it and queued as healer, went disc and just spammed smite on boss.

I still don't why most people are so averse to tanking; I generally prefer to be the tank as 1) it has the maximum potential to carry a shit group since it does both support and DPS (unlike the other two roles that really just do 1), and 2) allows you to increase run speed significantly -more than being DPS, definitely more than being heals and 3) has the shortest queues and highest chance for a satchel.

It's really logistics (what I named above: non-tank classes and lack of tri-spec, and alt unfriendliness) that keep me from actually being the tank: Many of my classes are non-tank, my paladin main is Holy/Ret, and while I'm working on a Death Knight tank, the fact that its low on my alt priority list means I really can't be assed spending eons of time actually getting her even to 496 item level and getting an acceptable weapon on her.

That's not the problem (though personally i would love a warlock tank, i just don't see it happening). I have every tank in the game maxed out or close to maxed out. I have been tanking raids since BC and I love what I do. I've been the top tank in 4 separate guilds over the years because of the amount of effort i put into my tanks. That said, I do not tank LFR's anymore. Honestly i'm more willing to put up with a 45 minute wait than put up with the 20 a-holes who question my every decision. They moan i'm pulling to fast, that i'm not pulling fast enough, that i'm tanking a mob/boss wrong. They wander out and pull for me. I'm doing my job tanking and they're standing in fire or doing something else stupid. Why would any tank subject themselves to that, especially since being a tank on a low pop server my talents are in high demand from guilds who go to real raids? Even with the little bonus for queuing as a tank when the numbers are low, it's not enough of an incentive to put up with all that crap. Maybe i'm just starting to show my age but i've been playing this game way too long to put up with that nonsense. Heck, as a dps without the best gear i can usually be in the top 5 dps just half-assing it.

I dont tank LFR anymore. I would rather chuck on my undergeared DPS stuff and wait 30-40 minutes while farming mats. I dont tank anymore because majority of DPS dont appreciate what we have to put up with on an average LFR run, theyve just waited 30 minutes and want everything to happen now, have zero patience and often cause their run to become slow.

Im fed up with being told GOGOGOGO, when Im talking to the off tank explaining him how to do things because hes never seen the fight, to have a stupid DPS pull for me.

Im fed up with people taunting all the council together in ToT because they want to cleave it down, only for Sul to not die and wipe us because people are low on DPS and noone is killing the add.

Im fed up with being in the top 10 DPS as a tank.

If you want faster queues as DPS, try treating your tanks and healers with some courtesy and respect and try not to make their lives hell and they might tank another one.

In the meantime, enjoy your 40 minute queues. Ill be tanking Flex, which is easier, quicker and better rewards.

/Agree completely. All my alt tanks that I'm not doing Normals/Heroics with, I take in flex with players that are not retarded/don't AFK/are not the GOGO cheerleading team.

They should re-evaluate the kick policy in LFR. Also if you're one of those retarded DPS that griefs tanks in LFR, the reason you have longer queues is because most tanks from LFR will have you on ignore, which means you're very much limited to joining a LFR where a tank does not have you on ignore already.

These kind of people that grief tanks just don't think and will never learn until they are kicked from every raid over and over. Which is not possible with the current ''Kick'' system in place due to them getting kick protection for being nasty.

I dont tank LFR anymore. I would rather chuck on my undergeared DPS stuff and wait 30-40 minutes while farming mats. I dont tank anymore because majority of DPS dont appreciate what we have to put up with on an average LFR run, theyve just waited 30 minutes and want everything to happen now, have zero patience and often cause their run to become slow.

Im fed up with being told GOGOGOGO, when Im talking to the off tank explaining him how to do things because hes never seen the fight, to have a stupid DPS pull for me.

Im fed up with people taunting all the council together in ToT because they want to cleave it down, only for Sul to not die and wipe us because people are low on DPS and noone is killing the add.

Im fed up with being in the top 10 DPS as a tank.

If you want faster queues as DPS, try treating your tanks and healers with some courtesy and respect and try not to make their lives hell and they might tank another one.

In the meantime, enjoy your 40 minute queues. Ill be tanking Flex, which is easier, quicker and better rewards.

Just be more impervious to bads. I typically ignore instance chat and do what I want. I only really talk when calmly asking the other tank what he wants to tank (and if he doesn't answer, I just tank everything) and perhaps delegating some simple duties (that I do not really put full faith will be done).

I then more or less ignore most of the raid only casting simple things (utility abilities) when needed.

I decided to run through the 1st wing of SoO last night before today's reset with my 2nd Prot Warrior (different server) to try and score some gear. First queue I get in on Sha of Pride with a 3 stack of Determination. They were arguing about what to do so I told them Spread for Reflection Spawns, Spread after the Big Add dies for Swelling Pride and free people from prisons. I wasn't even going to bother with the de-buffing when you have the Titan's buff as that may have sent them overboard.

Sure enough, 3 people kept standing in the Reflection Spawns and not doing what they were supposed to. I watched their Pride climb to almost 75 before we got Sha to 30%. We did kill him but I was glad to be done with that group.

Next group I got in was a fresh one. I'm sitting at a 497 ILvL so I was more than willing to do the OT stuff. We had an Arms Warrior in Defensive stance and a Frost DK in Blood Presence which made Immerseus, Protectors and Norushen fun fighting them for aggro. Not a big deal and everything died in one shot (no gear for me though, blah) but it was mildly annoying.

I love Tanking. I always have and I will continue to Tank regardless of the scrubs who hoot and holler. Once I am done with this Legendary quest and I have all the LFR gear I need, I won't be back in LFR with that character but I'll have another Tank coming up right behind him.

I'm not Healing though. F that........

I think however LFR should reward reputation with a given faction once per week. Make it around 1000 reputation for the LFR run and its a one shot deal that week regardless of what wing you choose.

Make it Balck Prince and I'll Tank all day (until Exalted that is, lol).

Going for Secrets with a guildie last night (and myself of course, catching up on Legendary).

Lei Shin: We're buffed up, markers are placed, etc etc. Someone accidentally pulls the boss. Granted, it may have been on purpose, but the guy was pretty immediately like "oh shit im sorry". Most of the time when people pull purposefully, they stay quiet and hope nobody notices. But that's beside the point. Keep in mind, the details have been explained to everyone by one of the healers, everyone is ready, but because of an accidental pull, the tank decides to sit there and start bitching out the mage who pulled. The other tank, who probably had no idea what he was doing there did nothing.

Becuase this entitled tank chose to be spiteful instead of just pick up the boss, we ended up wiping. Now, I understand it's irritating when someone pulls prematurely, whether it's an accident or not. It's even more irritating when a tank is just going to stand there and wipe the raid because he wants to be spiteful. The group was good, and there would have been no problem if he had just sucked it up and done his job.

Tortos: Warrior tank says he'll get the boss and explains to the OT what to do with bats. OT says yeah no problem. Boss is pulled, OT is running after turtles, bats kill everyone. Second pull, explain again to the OT, yeah okay no problem. OT ignores turtles this time. And the bats. Bats kill everyone. Third pull, give the guy one more chance and even offer to switch tanking assignments. OT says no I got it. Third pull, picks up a bat or two, the rest kill everyone. Up until this point, I've said nothing, because I don't talk a lot in LFR, it's unnecessary to get involved in their world. Now, I tell them, I'm going blood, I'll get the bats, just make sure they die quick, I'm not actually a tank. Boss pulls, bats die, we win. I ended up having to tank up until the next boss when the OT finally left (not kicked) and we got a useful druid.

Earlier in the week, I went Blood (before going with guildie to help him/myself get some lingering Secrets) to test the waters and see what all the complaints are about. I did two wings that night. As soon as I entered, I said "Hi friends, first time tanking in here, any help is greatly appreciated." The other tank immediately whispers me, "For this next fight just..." I reply, thanks man, will do. Fight goes without a hitch. Next fight, he explains "For this one, just do this..." I reply, got it, no problem. Fight goes without a hitch. After that boss, he says, I gotta go now, but for the next one, just do this, and have your OT do this. Cool man, much appreciated. New tank comes in, I explain it's my first time but I got a run down, and he says, "Yeah that works, just taunt off at..." Fight goes without a hitch.

Just sharing recent examples of things I see in LFR where tanks are involved. The point here: Not all tanks are good, and not all tanks are bad. If you're good, great! If you're bad, get better. Either way, don't lump everything into "TANKS ALWAYS GET IT WORSE" as if it's a set rule. Just because it's your main role and the only thing you actually pay attention to in a run, doesn't necessarily mean you're the only one who gets shit on. And if you get shit on because you're fucking up, improve, fix the problem. Don't be an entitled asshole.

I'm not against tanks in any way, I'm against poor players. As I've said time and again, I respect good tanks and the work they do in the game.

As good as a tank is and as vital as they are to beat encounters you will not beat encounters if your 6 healers are bad and people die or your entire 17 DPS cannot do the required DPS to kill the boss.

Right. But if you're just 1 baddie out of 6 or 17 then you probably won't get noticed or cause the raid to wipe, while a bad tank will get noticed. LFR and LFD is really a terrible place to learn how to tank, going with people you know is much better, IE in Flex raids.

That system sounds like a fantastic change. I think satchels need a bit more incentive for roles that are constantly in need (tanks, sometimes healers depending on battle group), but that change to the kick system sounds great. Less anomynity and that'll translate into a hopefully better overall player base.

Satchels I think could maybe do with more food/flasks in there I would not tinker much with the % drop rate of mounts/pets as that could alter things too much. Perhaps give some crafting patterns depending on your profession or at least a % chance.

I agree with you on tanking LFR for lower guild friends. I did that for my brother when he was gearing up just prior to soo. He still needs Terrace of endless spring finishing as its the only wing he is missing now! That shall be done though in due time. I enjoy tanking what makes me not enjoy it is toxic players. I've directly been flamed one for a positioning mistake on gates on my first go on the juggernaught. Since then i've had it down no problems but that one time I made mistake (even after asking for some clarification on where I will position vs where raid will be) No one answered and just said GO GO GO. I can imagine it would be worse for tanks who are new to the game and wont be able to adjust to boss fights as easy.