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K.J. Lopez

“In essence, if you are Catholic in this country, you no longer can own a company”

“By means of this law, the Obama administration has mandated that no Catholic can own a business and provide health insurance to their employees without incurring crippling fines,” O’Brien says. And it’s not only Catholics the administration’s regulation would keep inside churches. This posture is one that the Department of Justice has been defending in court, arguing that an individual makes a choice to put these religious-liberty claims aside when he decides to run a company. “Once someone starts a ‘secular’ business, he categorically loses any right to run that business in accordance with his conscience,” explains Kyle Duncan of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. “The business owner simply leaves her First Amendment rights at home when she goes to work at the business she built. Kosher butchers around the country must be shocked to find that they now run ‘secular’ businesses. On this view of the world, even a seller of Bibles is ‘secular.’” Among others fighting for their religious liberty in the courts on account of the HHS mandate is Mardel, an affiliate of the evangelical-run arts-and-crafts chain Hobby Lobby. Mardel sells Bibles and other Christian material, “but because it makes a profit, the government has now declared it ‘secular,’” Duncan points out…

Even in the midst of a fight that could affect their livelihood, the O’Brien family is keeping things in perspective. “My wife and I started out poor,” he recalls. “So far, the worst that they can do to us is bankrupt us. We were happy when we were poor, and we would still be happy if we became poor again.” The O’Briens have faced worse — even this year. “Other than not understanding the other side’s logic on this issue, we don’t get too emotionally involved. Our 32-year-old daughter died of melanoma this year. Emotionally that was and is a much bigger issue for us.”

Blowback

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To the left, you are allowed your freedom of religion, and you can have all the opposition you want…in your head. Make no mistake: they’d have no problem mandating that a Catholic Deacon OBGYN must perform a late-term abortion. He’d still be free to give his Homily on Sunday admonishing himself (though they’d prefer he not do that either).

To the left, you are allowed your freedom of religion, and you can have all the opposition you want…in your head. Make no mistake: they’d have no problem mandating that a Catholic Deacon OBGYN must perform a late-term abortion. He’d still be free to give his Homily on Sunday admonishing himself (though they’d prefer he not do that either).

Plenty of non Christian Catholics in the world, so I think this statement is flawed. You cannot be a in good faith practicing Christian and own a business when the government forces you to commit sin as well as fund the sins of others directly.

Really getting tired of Catholics crying about this. Hey guys – YOU are the ones who’ve been pushing for nationalized healthcare and YOUR OWN Catholic Health Services ENDORSED ObamaCare and yes, this contraceptive coverage was in the bill when you did it.

Life’s tough – it’s tougher it you’re stupid.

As long as the Catholic Church demands that I pay taxes for other people’s healthcare – I’m all for FORCING the Catholic Church to provide contraception.

Now – I could be swayed from this IF the Catholic Church came out and swore-off ALL nationalized healthcare – but I’m not holding my breath.

Catholic Churches are individual groups. Blaming all Catholics for a few errant Bishops seems a bit much.

astonerii on December 31, 2012 at 11:01 AM

Then the individual congregations should secede from the Catholic Church, or their individual members should go join churches that more accurately reflect their beliefs. Denominations have hierarchies of authority for good reason.

Good to see you are the one without sin who wished to cast that first stone.

Myron Falwell on December 31, 2012 at 11:13 AM

Not a fair comparison. When Jesus found money changers in the temple, he put a stop to it. When dealing with a chastened sinner on the one hand (your example), he had forgiveness. Do you consider the Catholic Church chastened by their support of government enforced charity? God loves a cheerful giver, as in, voluntary, from the heart, not enforced by police and an army of bureaucrats.

Maybe we should start using the term “Secular Catholic” or “Cultural Catholic” in much the same way we use the term “Secular Jew”. I remember reading an article some time ago written by a man who considered himself a secular Jew. He described himself as “A Jew for about 15 or so days out of the year, and an atheist for the other 350.” I know many people who were baptized Catholic who could accurately describe themselves in much the same way, and their votes are still considered by pollsters to be every bit as Catholic as the votes of Rick Santorum.

Catholic Churches are individual groups. Blaming all Catholics for a few errant Bishops seems a bit much.

astonerii on December 31, 2012 at 11:01 AM

Catholic churches are individual groups but ARE NOT independent groups. I was a Catholic, attended Catechism and everything else. My daughter goes to a Catholic Private School. All the parishes are controlled through the Diocese and those ultimately report to Rome.

And … it is the Pope’s stated position that government can and should confiscate my money to pay for healthcare for the “poor”.

Why should I care if the Catholic Church is FORCED to provide contraception? Sure, it’s a violation of their religious rights. However, when the Pope argues that every nation should have nationalized healthcare – he’s telling Uncle Sam to violate MY rights.

So good luck to the Catholics but this is THEIR battle – I’m not lifting a finger until they back off the notion that I’m responsible for my neighbor’s health.

So what about the nearly 50% of us Catholics who did and never would vote for this clown socialist tyrant, and who did everything in our power to prevent his election and his re-election? We don’t get to complain?

Catholic Churches are individual groups. Blaming all Catholics for a few errant Bishops seems a bit much.

[astonerii on December 31, 2012 at 11:01 AM]

I know what you mean, but I think you mean dioceses, and in that respect, you’ll need to look to USCCB, which is responsible for speaking for the Catholic Church in the US, though, notably not the final word on it, if you know what I mean.

You are also right in noting that Honda should not be blaming all Catholics, but I do think he is right in blaming the Church as he’s implying the USCCB.

That’s the problem I see. They liked him because he was forcing health care insurance onto every one which the Catholics see as good and charitable. Then they whine when that insurance is not what they expected. It’s almost like that wanted to force their charitable beliefs onto everyone via the strong arm of the law.

So what about the nearly 50% of us Catholics who did and never would vote for this clown socialist tyrant, and who did everything in our power to prevent his election and his re-election? We don’t get to complain?

inviolet on December 31, 2012 at 12:03 PM

You get to complain but remember that it was the “heads” of the church that wanted this and the members are but the flock. How much say do the members really have what endorsements etc.

A real good way to complain is to use your feet and find a different Christian sect to join. Staying with the church is basically an endorsement of what the heads say and do.

So good luck to the Catholics but this is THEIR battle – I’m not lifting a finger until they back off the notion that I’m responsible for my neighbor’s health.

[HondaV65 on December 31, 2012 at 11:44 AM]

Then as a former(?) Catholic you should know that they cannot back off that notion. They can, however, back off the notion that the Church should support forcing you to be responsible for your neighbor’s — health via the federal government. (I add that via since I suppose they could “force” Catholics to do so. I’m not fully decided on that, though.)

And if you can agree with that clarification, then I can fully agree with you.

That should be printed at the top of any whiny Catholic post. Because they all make out like Catholics are helpless victims that had no control over this whatsoever.

Moesart on December 31, 2012 at 11:54 AM

Then only 45% of Catholics are helpless victims in this matter?

Hmm…number crunching: the vast majority of Catholics in the US are either white or Latino (70/30)…suppose O carried Latino Catholics by the same margin he carried Latinos as a whole (about 70/30, again)…

Then White Catholics voted Romney by about 55/45.

Hmm…given all of my teachers in Catholic school growing up (80’s-early 90’s) were white and, basically, anti-abortion socialists, I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.

So what about the nearly 50% of us Catholics who did and never would vote for this clown socialist tyrant, and who did everything in our power to prevent his election and his re-election? We don’t get to complain?

Say what you want. That’s your business.

I’m sick of all this whining like all Catholics are helpless and just had this dumped onto them without any warning.

Catholics voted for Obama. 52 to 45 percent. They voted for this. So, here it is.

So what about the nearly 50% of us Catholics who did and never would vote for this clown socialist tyrant, and who did everything in our power to prevent his election and his re-election? We don’t get to complain?

Sorry for you…but the majority didn’t and when the majority are fools, in a relatively free land, then all deserve what they got.

The once freest land is now the most stupid. It happened volens, thus is fully deserved.

Okay, here’s probably my most controversial statement: This is where the federal civil rights legislation has led us to. And it was inevitable.

No, I’m not talking about outlawing slavery or giving blacks the right to vote. Not that kind of legitimate exercise of federal power.

I’m talking about where, during the 20th century, we decided that enforcing equality was more important than enforcing private property rights. See, if I’m a homeowner, I can choose to allow or deny access to my home on any basis I so choose. I can decide that I will never allow a black person into my home. Or a gay person. Or someone in a wheelchair. Why? Because it is my private property. But if I’m a business owner, I can’t do that. Because even though it is my private property, the government says that I’m providing some sort of public good that everyone is entitled to.

We have slowly, incrementally whittled away the rights of business owners to run their businesses and manage their private property as they see fit. We started with goals that are hard to object to. “Do you mean you want black to not be able to eat at the restaurant of their choice?” Then we moved on to things that were more controversial, but still hard to argue without looking like a heartless bastard. “You mean you don’t want people in wheelchairs to have easy access to the grocery store?” Now we’re into the “you don’t want women to have access to proper healthcare” and “why do you hate gay people” phase.

A real good way to complain is to use your feet and find a different Christian sect to join. Staying with the church is basically an endorsement of what the heads say and do.

I say this as a Catholic that walked away a many years ago.

Dr. Frank Enstine on December 31, 2012 at 12:10 PM

All due respect, not exactly. Staying with the church is an endorsement of the theological truths it teaches (and has consistently taught) as well as general moral principles like, just to name one of many, oh, say….charity toward one’s neighbor.

Before you reply, read the rest of my post: what something like “charity toward one’s neighbor” means politically is up for a lot of interpretation, and differing opinions by different Christians, and my view is that Jesus never once said government should take money by force from some to give charity to others. But we are responsible to help others with personal charity to the point of it hurting.

CS Lewis, one of my favorite Christian writers, put it really well (paraphrasing): “some people mean when they say the Church should give us guidance is that the bishops should put out a political programme. This is silly. The details should be worked out by Christian citizens in charge of such things. The function of the bishops [he was speaking of Anglican bishops] is to give general moral principles which are applied by Christians living in the world, according to their lights.”

So I’m not going to leave the Catholic Church even if I don’t agree with some (not all) bishops on the detailed application of the proper role of government in public life. Jesus only guaranteed the teaching of truth in areas of faith and moral teaching.

(Now I’ve done it. I have lots of respect for other Christians and I hope this doesn’t turn into a thread where all the denominations of Christians bash each other. But I have to say it when someone’s telling me to leave my church over a disagreement with something that was never meant to be part of the deposit of faith. )

The Golden Rule of the New Testament (Do as you would be done by) is a summing up of what everyone, at bottom, had always known to be right.
…
The second thing to get clear is that Christianity has not, and does not profess to have, a detailed political programme for applying “Do as you would be done by” to a particular society at a particular moment. It could not have. It is meant for all men at all times, and the particular programme which suited one place or time would not suit another. And, anyhow, that is not how Christianity works. When it tells you to feed the hungry it does not give you lessons in cookery. When it tells you to read the Scriptures it does not give you lessons in Hebrew and Greek, or even in English grammar. It was never intended to replace or supersede the ordinary human arts and sciences; it is rather a director which will set them all to the right jobs, and a source of energy which will give them all new life, if only they will put themselves at its disposal.

People say, “The Church ought to give us a lead.” That is true if they mean it in the right way, but false if the mean it in the wrong way. By the Church they ought to mean the whole body of practicing Christians. And when they say that the Church should give us a lead, they ought to mean that some Christians–those who happen to have the right talents — should be economists and statesmen, and that all economists and statesmen should be Christians, and that their whole efforts in politics and economics should be directed to putting “Do as you would be done by” in to action. If that happened, and if we others were really ready to take it, then we should find the Christian solution for our own social problems pretty quickly.

But, of course, when they ask for a lead from the Church most people mean they want the clergy to put out a political programme. That is silly. The clergy are those particular people within the whole Church who have been specially trained and set aside to look after what concerns us as creatures who are going to live forever: and we are asking them to do a quite different job for which they have not been trained. The job is really on us, on the laymen. The application of Christian principles, say, to trade unionism and education, must come from Christian trade unionists and Christian schoolmasters; just as Christian literature comes from Christian novelists and dramatists–not from the bench of bishops getting together and trying to write plays and novels in their spare time.

…
But I have to say it when someone’s telling me to leave my church over a disagreement with something that was never meant to be part of the deposit of faith. )

inviolet on December 31, 2012 at 1:04 PM

I’m not asking you to do anything. But more importantly, nobody’s suggesting you to do that. When they Catholic hierarchy makes something (something significant) an article of faith, which you agree with me should not be, then I suggest you should leave.

2 Corinthians 9:7

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

The most reasonable interpretation of that to me, is that when the government compels me to spend money in a sinful way, I should engage in civil disobedience. The Catholic Church is in favor of me spending my money in a sinful way, by promoting government compelled ‘charity’.

But I have to say it when someone’s telling me to leave my church over a disagreement with something that was never meant to be part of the deposit of faith. )

inviolet on December 31, 2012 at 1:04 PM

I wasn’t telling you to leave your church. I was saying it is and option if one does not like what the church is doing. How you read, “A real good way to complain is to use your feet” as a command or order to leave your church is beyond me. In any case you do what you want. I could care less what your decisions are in regards to your religion.

I also stand by my opinion that staying is endorsement. Following the way of the church is what being a Catholic is all about. Maybe it’s changed since I left but that was what was pounded into me for years by the nuns at school. As a Catholic the church is to be followed without question. Otherwise you are sinning.

Late to the thread, but the whole scope is wrong. It’s not just Catholics who are being forced out of business, it’s Christians or any people of conscience who do not believe in distributing morning after pills as they kill the fetus. News flash: Hobby Lobby is NOT a Catholic organization yet they are forced into civil disobedience to avoid complying with Obama’s mandate. This is an attack on anyone of conscience, not just Catholics. Of course the media has been trying to remove (read sear) the American conscience for decades. This is just another step.

A real good way to complain is to use your feet and find a different Christian sect to join. Staying with the church is basically an endorsement of what the heads say and do.

I say this as a Catholic that walked away a many years ago.

Dr. Frank Enstine on December 31, 2012 at 12:10 PM

Thanks for your civil replies. I will just say, I did, actually, read “a real good way to complain is to use your feet [and leave your sect for another]” as a suggestion to leave the Catholic Church. So, I’m sorry I misunderstood you. Thanks for your later thoughts too, will leave it at that, and hope you have a good New Year’s.