We have reduced support for legacy browsers.

What does this mean for me? You will always be able to play your favorite games on Kongregate. However, certain site features may suddenly stop working and leave you with a severely degraded experience.

What should I do? We strongly urge all our users to upgrade to modern browsers for a better experience and improved security.

I don’t give much of a damn until the foetus develops a functional nervous system – as that is the point where it is possible to experience pain. The nervous system is normally fully developed in the third trimester, if memory serves.

> *Originally posted by **[johnpeter](/forums/9/topics/34333?page=1#posts-702709):***
>
> A fetus is alive it has a heart beat and is a living being. Babys should have the same chance at life that you and I do and did. How would **you** like it if you were murded and people called it “abortion”.
You need more then a heart to be alive. A brain and other organs.

> A fetus is alive it has a heart beat and is a living being.
So do cows, but you don’t seem to object to people slaughtering them so you can eat beef.
> Babys should have the same chance at life that you and I do and did.
A fetus is not a baby.
> How would you like it if you were murded and people called it “abortion”.
Fallacious.
In any case, if I _had_ been aborted, I would never have existed as a person. Same with if my parents had used a spermicide.
Semen is alive. Is using a condom “murder”? If not, at what point do the sperm and egg become a _person_?

But the relevant question is: is a fetus a person in the same way that a baby is a person? Why or why not? What’s the difference? That’s really the only question for this entire debate. Provide a logically compelling and solid answer to that question and there will be no more abortion debate.

> is a fetus a person in the same way that a baby is a person?
Not at all. There are a multitude of differences from physical structure, cognitive ability, and overall development.
Still it would take forever to explain them all so I guess I will lie in wait. Before that I will address a few mistakes I noticed:
> I think it’s murder.
Murder is legally defined as unlawful killing. If an abortion is practiced in a legal setting it is not murder no matter how you look at it.
> A fetus is alive it has a heart beat and is a living being.
Well, technically the bacteria on your hands is a collection of living beings. I guess you commit thousands of murders every time you wash your hands then.
> How would you like it if you were murded and people called it “abortion”.
You would have to show how an independent, fully functioning organism can be compared to a parasitic organism that depends entirely on the host for starters.
> I don’t give much of a damn until the foetus develops a functional nervous system – as that is the point where it is possible to experience pain.
Why does pain matter as a marker? Many animals experience pain as well.
> Killing a baby before it could ever enjoy life is disgusting in my book.
Good thing no one is arguing for that then.
Also, feel free to read these threads so we don’t beat certain points to death:
[Abortion as a birth control method?!?](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/9/topics/33348)
[is it ever okay to get an abortion?](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/9/topics/14582)
[Abortions- Are they really a bad thing?](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/9/topics/30666)
[Abortion its aaawwww right!](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/9/topics/29164)

> Why does pain matter as a marker? Many animals experience pain as well.
Given that there is plenty of time to abort a fetus before that happens, you could argue that waiting until a fetus is capable of feeling pain before aborting it is inhumane.

Humane killing devices (presumably) cause much less pain to the cow than aborting a fetus causes to it.
Also, there isn’t any opportunity to kill the cow before it can experience pain if you want to get meat out of it.

> Humane killing devices (presumably) cause much less pain to the cow than aborting a fetus causes to it.
I find that claim somewhat dubious. What makes you think this might be the case?
> Also, there isn’t any opportunity to kill the cow before it can experience pain if you want to get meat out of it.
There aren’t always opportunities to abort a fetus before it begins to feel pain. Actually to be honest we aren’t even positive what the threshold is. I think I can make a good case that a child does not truly feel pain until long after birth.
> That’s why I’m against halal/kosher food and foie gras.
Why Halal/Kosher food? Note that Halal =/= Dhabiha.

> *Originally posted by **[Phoenix00017](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/9/topics/34333#posts-702964):***
>
> But the relevant question is: is a fetus a person in the same way that a baby is a person? Why or why not? What’s the difference? That’s really the only question for this entire debate. Provide a logically compelling and solid answer to that question and there will be no more abortion debate.
I dont think they are the same. A fetus is a fetus and not a full grown baby as of yet. I dont think it has full developed. But still, there are lots of ways to “get rid” of your baby without killing it. Adoption or shared adoption if you want to be part of the baby’s life.

> *Originally posted by **[Jabor](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/9/topics/34333#posts-703074):***
>
> We can be pretty sure when a fetus becomes capable of experiencing the nerve impulses we associate with pain.
If it doesn’t have a fully functional brain do those impulses still count? As I said, it isn’t clear.

According to the dictionary:
**fetus** -
` –noun, plural -tus⋅es. Embryology.
(used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp.
in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind
, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation. `
**baby** -
`
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
`

> When, do you believe, that a fetus stops being a collection of cells and instead becomes a person worth protecting?
That, of course, is the entire question. I personally am tending to lean in the direction of early EEG readings, which are somewhere between 20 and 26 weeks, depending on your definition. But ultimately that’s the only question: at what point does a fetus become a human and protected under human laws? Certainly once it is born it is. And at conception it is not. So there clearly must be a turning point somewhere between, or perhaps including, those two points.