Teachers unions and especially PA teachers unions are among the most militant and nasty. Makes the Teamsters look like Girl Scouts. I've never encountered a more socialist, angry, illogical/emotional, entitled bunch as public school teachers unions.

Henry Bowman

June 17, 2005, 10:22 AM

I've never encountered a more socialist, angry, illogical/emotional, entitled bunch as public school teachers unions. The ones in the state of Washington could give them a run for their money.

Norton

June 17, 2005, 10:30 AM

If these teachers don't want to work for what the school board is willing to pay, then they should move on......I hope that the school board fires them.

The ironic thing is that PA, for the most part, is one of the best places to be a teacher......PA retirement system is excellent.

They should come down here to MD if they want to see what lousy wages are for teachers.......

Brian Williams

June 17, 2005, 10:35 AM

I was a PA certified teacher and did not like the politics of school systems, I love teaching but the politics suck.

The PA teachers union are a bunch of liberal pukes.

MacPelto

June 17, 2005, 10:49 AM

Maybe I'm missing something by not being a teacher, but what's so interesting about this?

Mac

Don Gwinn

June 17, 2005, 10:54 AM

Honestly? People don't like power-mad unions who threaten to shut down an entire educational system unless they're given their own way.

(Former and soon-to-be-again teacher and member of the NEA.)

One of the reasons a lot of teachers don't like the teachers' unions is that they're not really seen as representing us. They're pretty busy with other political issues like abortion and gun control, which they fund illegally from our membership dues. But in Illinois, if you teach school, you can either pay the full dues less about $25 and have no vote at all in anything the union does, or you can join for that extra $25 per year and at least get a vote. It's illegal to teach in our public schools without paying "fair share" dues to the union whether you belong or not.
Nice racket if you can get it.

Kalrog

June 17, 2005, 11:00 AM

Thank goodness I am in a right to work state - being forced to be in a union is just assinine.

Baba Louie

June 17, 2005, 11:01 AM

Whereas I grew up in a blue collar Union Family, very hard core Missouri Democrats, my Dad liked to define a strike as "Choking the living heck out of the chicken to increase egg production"... I guess chickens like that sort of stuff, neh? It all makes sense to me.

I remember having our High School doors chained & padlocked for about a week back in '71 or so while "things" were negotiated. The only bad thing being, the students had to make up the lost week at the tail end of the school year.

TarpleyG

June 17, 2005, 11:01 AM

I love it when people say that teachers are underpaid too. They aren't a teacher I guess. My wife is--8th grade science. She has a BS in Biology. She is paid a salary every year that's a little more than half what I make as an IT manager. She works approximately half the year taking out weekends, school holidays, and summer--about 180 days. I work 244 days. Now, add to that little perk no cost healthcare for herself and a mad pension if she puts in 30 years that pays a significant yearly salary until she dies, and I think you'll see that teachers make a pretty decent living. Don't get me wrong, it's a hard job but so are a lot of others.

Greg

MacPelto

June 17, 2005, 11:10 AM

So, in PA you have to join the union just to be a teacher?! Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with unions per se - free association and all - but having to join a union just to get a job seems asinine. Why would a state go for that?

Mac

RealGun

June 17, 2005, 11:18 AM

Thank goodness I am in a right to work state - being forced to be in a union is just assinine.

You won't feel so good about it if you find you can't sue for wrongful termination or even get a hearing. Been there/done that.

In the context of what is remotely on topic on THR, I would rather discuss whether striking teachers should indeed be fired en masse, Reagan style. A strike should not be an option. They can negotiate anything, possibly submitting to mediation, as long as it works within existing budgets.

I wouldn't doubt there are two sides to the story, but teachers I know, a number of them immediate family members, are pretty prosperous and don't work a full year. I think they have to pay for too much of their own supplies and equipment, but salary and benefits look pretty good to me.

Don Gwinn

June 17, 2005, 11:30 AM

Tarpley, you're right. I've always said that those who complain about what a teacher makes must have grown up with a lot more than I did. I'm finishing up a special ed degree this year to make myself a bit more marketable (and also because I just plain enjoy SpEd more) and if I can get hired on this year, my wife and I will be able to start overpaying the mortgage by more, overpaying our student loans again (they're almost gone mostly because we overpay) and get that new van she's had her eye on, plus broadband and maybe a gun safe.

We won't be rich, but we'll be a far sight more comfortable than we are now! But then, what I call comfortable, many would call "poor." The problem is that a lot of teachers compare themselves to everybody else who got a bachelor's, whether IT techs or biologists. Well, an IT tech put in the same four years and makes more money (if he can find a job) and that's fair enough--but why does he make more? Because he isn't paid out of property taxes, which no one wants to raise, and he creates direct profit for his employer, which a teacher simply does not (and cannot.)

I am NOT opposed to unions. I thinkthey have valuable role to play, and after all, if an employer can be a massive group of people incorporated into the "person" of a corporation, why can't the workers of that company do the same? But too many teachers' unions have no limits on their arrogance.

Henry Bowman

June 17, 2005, 01:11 PM

I am NOT opposed to unions. I thinkthey have valuable role to play, and after all, if an employer can be a massive group of people incorporated into the "person" of a corporation, why can't the workers of that company do the same? That only works if you think of it as the corporation hiring a union to supply labor and then the union hiring the workers. That's fine, if the corporation is allowed to choose not to hire a union to supply its labor force and is to free to hire independent employees instead. Or if the employer can choose to contract with a different labor supplyer (union). the rub comes when the government enforces the union monopoly.

perception

June 17, 2005, 02:21 PM

My mom is a teacher. She is also a member of the TEA and NEA. She does not want to be a member. She has always been opposed to the union, but membership is a required for her.

WT

June 17, 2005, 02:53 PM

I don't know about PA but my sister-in-law is a NJ teacher and pulls down $97,000 a year (10 months) teaching high school math. She LOVES the union.

duckslayer

June 17, 2005, 03:00 PM

my sister-in-law is a NJ teacher and pulls down $97,000 a year (10 months) teaching high school math.

:what: That seems hard to believe considering there are a lot of university professors that don't make that kind of money.

dasmi

June 17, 2005, 03:02 PM

Good, let them go. Stupid teacher's unions.
But Holland said the school district’s plan is illegal and that it can’t hire replacement workers.
Hey, screw you. If you're unwilling to work for the wages they provide, tough beans. They'll find someone who is.

auschip

June 17, 2005, 03:09 PM

I don't know about PA but my sister-in-law is a NJ teacher and pulls down $97,000 a year (10 months) teaching high school math. She LOVES the union.

WOW. My wife has a Masters Degree in her field, and her pay as a teacher is 1/3 of that. :eek:

WT

June 17, 2005, 03:11 PM

Granted, my S-i-L has a masters and 30+ years of experience. I think she works hard trying to teach the kids.

The NJEA has more power than the Mafia.

migoi

June 17, 2005, 03:34 PM

is a great deal. Want the phone number for the teacher recruitment office so you can sign up for this good deal also? I make that offer all the time and have never had anyone actually take me up on it, follow through, and join in on the easy street money. I wonder why.

In the case that was referenced to start this thread, delays in instituting a new contract work to the advantage of the district and to the disadvantage of the teachers. While operating under the old, defunct contract the teacher's real world salary has been decreasing at the same rate as inflation in their area.

Not to doubt the veracity of the claim that a teacher in NJ is making $97,000 a year teaching math..but in looking at the pay rates offered by the various school districts in NJ I saw maximum salaries around $87,000 with a master's degree + 45 additional hours after 15 or so years of service... doesn't sound too outrageous to me considering the two months "off" are probably spent earning 'professional development credits' in order to be able to renew the teaching license (paid for by the teacher).

The number? 808-586-3420. It's in Hawaii, so you too can enjoy easy street money and 300 days a year of sunshine.

migoi

longeyes

June 17, 2005, 03:35 PM

If we're lucky they'll all resign. The theater of World War IV is K-12. We are just a few years from seeing the ideals of this Republic submerged beneath a sea of leftwing political indoctrination, all of it, of course, well-meaning and "for the children."

Teachers underpaid? It's about more than whether it's hard work and how many hours are worked. Teachers don't have to look for customers, don't have to close sales, don't have to compete. Reward is based on the rarity of skills and, lest we forget, risk. Public employees do not deserve parity with private industry workers. They opted for security.

Air,Land&Sea

June 17, 2005, 03:40 PM

"If they choose to advertise for teachers, they do so at their own risk.", Holland said.

Hmmmm. Wants to play hardball. Give the schoolboard members bats.

jefnvk

June 17, 2005, 03:51 PM

It's illegal to teach in our public schools without paying "fair share" dues to the union whether you belong or not.

That is what I dislike about unions the most, when you are required to join whether or not you want to. If you wanna join, fine. If you don't, fine.

The only bad thing being, the students had to make up the lost week at the tail end of the school year.

Unortunately, yes.

jnojr

June 17, 2005, 04:04 PM

The CTA (California Teachers Association) is raising dues to raise $50,000,000 (that's right! Fifty million dollars!) to fight Arnold Schwarzeneggers plans to fix some of what ails California. He wants tenure given to teachers after 5 years instead of 2, reform the state pension system (which has ballooned by orders of magnitude and is unsupportable), and remove a state Constitutional guarantee that a certain percentage of state money automatically goes to education, no matter what.

The teachers unions are like any other union... they exist solely to maximize the benefit to themselves. The difference with teachers is, they get to claim "It's for the children!" :rolleyes:

Jeff Timm

June 17, 2005, 04:10 PM

Please don't forget:

1. The only President of the United States was was previously a Union President was Ronald Reagan.

2. The Air Traffic Controllers were sworn not to strike, like many Federal Employees, including Law enforcement and Veteran's Administration employees.

3. Just because a Union votes to do something, doesn't make it Legal.

Geoff
Who was annoyed by the ATC strike.

HankB

June 17, 2005, 04:23 PM

One of the reasons a lot of teachers don't like the teachers' unions is that they're not really seen as representing us. They're pretty busy with other political issues like abortion and gun control, which they fund illegally from our membership dues.Don, I believe there was a court ruling some years back which stated that when a union spends money on something OTHER than direct legitimate union business like collective bargaining, then union members have the right to demand a pro-rated portion of their union dues be refunded. You might check into this if your union is lobbying for gun control.

Henry Bowman

June 17, 2005, 04:31 PM

Don, I believe there was a court ruling some years back which stated that when a union spends money on something OTHER than direct legitimate union business like collective bargaining, then union members have the right to demand a pro-rated portion of their union dues be refunded. You might check into this if your union is lobbying for gun control. Sure. so they give you a $1.23 deduction and then, as a non-member, no vote on anything they do.

It is a racket supported by the government. :barf:

Wiley

June 17, 2005, 05:35 PM

I'm confused. How is shutting down Government Indoctirnation Centers in an entire State a bad thing?

cortez kid

June 17, 2005, 06:06 PM

Tell you what. I live in Pa, they(educational dept) has their own taxes. They raise taxes on their own. I pay about $700 a year in property tax. I pay $1500 in SCHOOL TAX. I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS. tHE TEACHERS HAVE A LOT OF NERVE STRIKING, KICKING OR MAKING FACES. People are coming to grips with losing their properties because they can't afford the school tax. These are old people on fixed incomes who have owned their properties for years. From what I can tell, there isn't that many kids that can read let alone being a super-educated scholar of society. Now if we judge the educational effort of teachers by counting nose rings or droopy draws, then they my have a point. Teachers, teachers unions and school boards=failures.
kid

Standing Wolf

June 17, 2005, 06:16 PM

I deeply enjoyed the teaching I've done here and there over the years. Unfortunately, the profession pays poorly, and you're stuck working with nitwits and nitwitted administrators in most public systems—and private schools generally pay even worse.

Bob41081

June 17, 2005, 06:27 PM

I think all unions should take a close look at Ford and GM. One of the big reasons their bonds now have junk status is the high costs of health insurance demanded by the unions. I've heard the figure of $1500/car for GM. Unwillingness to pay part of the costs is stupidiity on the part of those PA teachers IMO.

Bob

jefnvk

June 17, 2005, 07:09 PM

I'm confused. How is shutting down Government Indoctirnation Centers in an entire State a bad thing?

Whether or not you like public schools (from what people talk about here, I must have graduated from the only non-indoctrinating public school in the country), kids not going to school is a much worse idea.

Art Eatman

June 17, 2005, 07:30 PM

"The biggest negotiation issue between the union and school district is health care. The school district wants teachers to contribute to health-care premiums, but the teachers are opposed."

I believe that "TANSTAAFL" applies.

"...the contract issue is a serious matter, but the school district is more interested in “pandering to the public.”"

Yeah. Those otherwise useless drones called "taxpayers".

Art

Burt Blade

June 18, 2005, 12:19 AM

Oh please Br'er Union! Don't throw me in that thar briar patch!

migoi

June 18, 2005, 11:33 AM

the things people try to blame teachers for..."Now if we judge the educational effort of teachers by counting nose rings or droopy draws, then they my have a point."

365 X 18 = 6570 - number of days you have been alive at 18 years old
6570 X 24 = 157680 - number of hours you have been alive at 18 years old

13 X 180 = 2340 - number of days you should have been in school by graduation
2340 X 8 = 18720 - number of hours

18720/157680 = .1187 = approx 12% -- percentage of time you should have been in school of the hours you have been alive by age 18 (being overly generous in the length of the school day...it typically being between 6 - 7 versus 8, but what the heck)

start counting off time for sick days, recess, and lunch and it's obviously clear it's the teachers fault not the parents or any other societal influences.