There is a theory that most people believe they have had some kind of encounter with the dead - or whatever these things are.

It is also postulated that the dark matter in the universe may hold the key to a further dimension which may explain the spirit world. Quantum physics certainly opens the door to this strange idea, if we explore what Einstein expounded.

If you have had an experience please tell us what it was, where and when, etc. Then I will mention my own brush with the supernatural.

Essentially, it is the same standard of evidence people place on UFOs, as well.

Here's an example: If the police were to find a large pool of blood, a bloody knife, signs of a struggle, and signs of forced entry, the police are going to conclude that a murder - or at the very least a kidnapping - took place. There's no body, per se, and no ransom note, so there isn't a smoking gun, but the probability is very high that a crime of some sort took place.

However, with certain subjects that the media, especially, has taught us to scorn, no amount of evidence is sufficient to even consider the possibility that ghosts or UFOs may exist, much less prove that they do. In this case, the blood pool, bloody knife, and signs of struggle and forced entry aren't good enough pieces of evidence to even bother considering that a crime took place, much less trying to investigate the scene.

There is too much of a "giggle factor" when it comes to some of these issues, and the media only publicizes the stories/videos/pictures that are easily debunked - which, of course, lends one to the conclusion that all of these stories/videos/pictures are easily debunked. It is also a well known truism about UFOs that the media won't run a story about them unless they can add a silly joke somewhere within the report in order to ensure people don't take it too seriously.

As for ghosts, well ... I have to say that Electronic Voice Phenomenon (EVP) is some of the best evidence for the consideration of the existence of ghosts. In the case of EVPs, all of them are hoaxes or they are real. There is no "in between," there is no possibility of mistaking it for something else (like light and shadow playing with your mind). The voices exist, they are saying words, so it's either an exceeding widespread hoax (with no profit in doing so) or they really do come from ghosts of some kind.

I know most atheists chalk up ghosts as part of the whole spiritual issue that we tend not to believe. BUT ... the problem with this sort of rejection is that we don't even know what ghosts are. They don't necessarily have to be the spirits/souls of dead people. The more science begins to understand the ramifications of multiple and parallel universes, other dimensions, etc., then I think the answer to ghosts lies in that direction, not a spiritual one. The ghosts we see just might be images of actual living people, but we are simply viewing them through a tear or rip in the walls that separate other dimensions from our own.

Yeah, we can get really esoteric when talking about this kind of thing, and it's all speculation no matter how much science we bring into the discussion. I just think that people tend to dismiss evidence out of hand when it comes to these sorts of "paranormal" subjects. Too bad ... because I think they could be explained scientifically if we ever bothered to try.

What makes that post even more interesting, is that it comes from an atheist like Shirina. Now Shirina are you looking at it more from a moderating view than a personal view or which? because as an atheist you would normally rip any views such as ghosts etc apart.Alas I believe you are standing both sides of the fence in your post above.

stu wrote:What makes that post even more interesting, is that it comes from an atheist like Shirina. Now Shirina are you looking at it more from a moderating view than a personal view or which? because as an atheist you would normally rip any views such as ghosts etc apart.Alas I believe you are standing both sides of the fence in your post above.

No, it's just my personal opinion. If I do any moderating, I write it in red text so that people know I'm not just participating in the debate but that I'm enforcing a rule.

As for playing both sides of the fence, well, I don't think so. Atheists are a diverse bunch and we don't always agree with each other on non-religious points. All we are guaranteed to agree upon is that there is no god. Beyond that, anything goes.

I just tend not to lump ghosts in with spirituality, souls, heaven, and other "religious" elements, and that allows me to consider their existence a possibility. Most people, however, believe ghosts are the disembodied souls of departed loved ones who are here to complete unfinished business of some sort. I don't necessarily believe that, but I'm willing to see where the evidence leads us.

snowyflake wrote:There is likely a reasonable explanation for most of these things. I remember being at Fountain Abbey in Yorkshire and seeing a monk dressed up in long robes and hood standing in a doorway. I was convinced there was a person there but I took a step to take a picture of him and realised it was the play of sun and shadow and my brain trying to make out what it was. We are easily fooled and we like to believe that such things are possible. They may very well be possible but the evidence to date is nil.

Clearly it was the ghost of a monk, and god was trying to contact you, you're in denial....

On a more serious note am I the only one who finds it a little suspicious that ghosts and aliens never try to contact us in broad daylight in the centre of a big city with news cameras present?

On a more serious note am I the only one who finds it a little suspicious that ghosts and aliens never try to contact us in broad daylight in the centre of a big city with news cameras present?

I always thought that Parkinson, at his height of fame, should have sent an invite through the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury inviting God onto his chat show. At the appropriate moment he should come on stage and sit next to an empty guest chair. When nothing happens then phone them and ask if they couldn't get through or did he have a prior booking...

You are not the only one Sheldon!! and there hasn't been any major news reports of any aliens or ghosts that I have seen in my lifetime. Bellatori, absolutely brill, would still be great to do now eh:lol:

stu wrote:You are not the only one Sheldon!! and there hasn't been any major news reports of any aliens or ghosts that I have seen in my lifetime. Bellatori, absolutely brill, would still be great to do now eh:lol:

The problem would be finding an interviewer that had the balls to do it. Tough guys like Paxman and Humphries would probably be afraid of the adverse publicity. Maybe not but it could be a career breaker could it not?

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:On a more serious note am I the only one who finds it a little suspicious that ghosts and aliens never try to contact us in broad daylight in the centre of a big city with news cameras present?

Not particularly, no.

There is the assumption that aliens would even want to make contact. And even if they did, well ... if I were an alien, I wouldn't just pop down into a major city. What, with all the crackpots and crazies and religious fundies who think UFOs are demons ... no. Plus I wouldn't want to deal with the alien fan club which consists of more crazies and crackpots and groupies who think aliens are the best thing since sliced bread.

IF I wanted to make contact, I would do it quietly, in secret, and I would let as few people as possible know about it. Individually, people can be quite intelligent, but get them in a group and they're stupider than a group of mentally challenged lemmings.

And who is to say that, assuming aliens do visit this planet, they are here because of us? It reminds me of when the USA was conducting their island hopping strategy during WWII. They would set up bases and airfields on these tiny islands, and the natives all thought the military was there because of them. LOL! They had no idea that there was a war going on. In fact, this is what started the "cargo cults" that still exist to this day.

As for ghosts, well ... given the nature of the stories I've heard, and I've heard many, it doesn't really sound like ghosts can just appear whenever they want. I don't think they have much control over it. Now, people could actively go to a haunted house and try to get footage - and people do. And several major networks have actually gone into the field with ghost hunter groups looking for something paranormal.

The problem is that ghost sightings are rare. When people tell their stories, often times, these people either live or work in these buildings, and they've been there for decades. Yet they may only have had two or three experiences. That means that the odds of anyone catching sight of a ghost on camera by visiting a haunted locale for one night is exceedingly slim. That's a big reason why good footage doesn't really exist. No one is going to pay a news crew or a group of scientists to sit in a building for literally years waiting for that rare sighting.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:On a more serious note am I the only one who finds it a little suspicious that ghosts and aliens never try to contact us in broad daylight in the centre of a big city with news cameras present?

Not particularly, no.

There is the assumption that aliens would even want to make contact. And even if they did, well ... if I were an alien, I wouldn't just pop down into a major city. What, with all the crackpots and crazies and religious fundies who think UFOs are demons ... no. Plus I wouldn't want to deal with the alien fan club which consists of more crazies and crackpots and groupies who think aliens are the best thing since sliced bread.

IF I wanted to make contact, I would do it quietly, in secret, and I would let as few people as possible know about it. Individually, people can be quite intelligent, but get them in a group and they're stupider than a group of mentally challenged lemmings.

And who is to say that, assuming aliens do visit this planet, they are here because of us? It reminds me of when the USA was conducting their island hopping strategy during WWII. They would set up bases and airfields on these tiny islands, and the natives all thought the military was there because of them. LOL! They had no idea that there was a war going on. In fact, this is what started the "cargo cults" that still exist to this day.

As for ghosts, well ... given the nature of the stories I've heard, and I've heard many, it doesn't really sound like ghosts can just appear whenever they want. I don't think they have much control over it. Now, people could actively go to a haunted house and try to get footage - and people do. And several major networks have actually gone into the field with ghost hunter groups looking for something paranormal.

The problem is that ghost sightings are rare. When people tell their stories, often times, these people either live or work in these buildings, and they've been there for decades. Yet they may only have had two or three experiences. That means that the odds of anyone catching sight of a ghost on camera by visiting a haunted locale for one night is exceedingly slim. That's a big reason why good footage doesn't really exist. No one is going to pay a news crew or a group of scientists to sit in a building for literally years waiting for that rare sighting.

Hi Shirina, I neglected to put a sarcasm emoticon after my question, my apologies. Your points are of course perfectly logical, but I was merely pointing out how suspicious it is that if a ghost genuinely wanted to contact us they always choose a set of circumstances which not only leave some doubt about their presence, and no real empirical evidence, but always in a stereotypical "ghostly" environment that would work on the suggestible nature of the average human mind. Dark, lonely castles, or in the dead of night in the woods etc etc.

As for Aliens if they genuinely wanted to contact us they could surely find enough sane humans to make their desire for contact clear, after all how much of a threat could we be to a species that had travelled across the void of space undetected? I find the idea that they'd go to such difficulty only to sexually abuse some lonely farmer in the wilds of Montana highly dubious. That was my only point really. If they could navigate such vast distances, then they'd almost certainly have the technology to contact us without even coming near our planet. So when I hear that some lone woodsman has been beamed up and given a message I can only laugh at the stupidity of the claim. Perhaps I am too cynical.

There is a theory that most people believe they have had some kind of encounter with the dead - or whatever these things are.

It is also postulated that the dark matter in the universe may hold the key to a further dimension which may explain the spirit world. Quantum physics certainly opens the door to this strange idea, if we explore what Einstein expounded.

I certainly have seen ghost and spirits and Demons many times, and I have done so along with other people there to experience it too.

I also believe that science has found a missing link in the "parallel universes" as that really explains a lot.

==================================================

Shirina wrote:I put "scientific" in quotes because, if ghosts do exist, I'm confident that there will be a scientific explanation - perhaps bizarre rips in the walls that separate the various dimensions or similar parallel universes. I go along with what Dr. Brian Greene said once: "There's no such thing as the paranormal, just things that science hasn't explained yet."

In fact, I think we see eye-to-eye on this issue for the most part. I am highly skeptical of alien abduction stories. In fact, I have found no good reason to believe they are true. UFO sightings in general are often seen by great masses of people whereas abductions are never witnessed by anyone -- and if someone claims to have seen one take place, it's always a husband or wife or someone else whose testimony would be dubious given the close relationship with the abductee. Yeah, the whole alien anus probes and whatnot is ridiculous and there is no good evidence that aliens are snatching farmers and housewives out of their beds to conduct sexual experiments upon.

I do feel that if aliens wanted to make contact, as you said, they would. And perhaps they have. We just aren't in the "inner circle" of knowledge, unfortunately. I have heard a lot of claims from people who say they've been contacted, but I feel it's a bunch of crap -- especially because these alleged "contactees" always put their own political spin on it. The aliens are always telling these bonehead contactees that Mankind must stop nuclear weapon testing, or using nuclear energy, or to stop fighting wars, or to stop polluting the earth, etc. What's more, these 'contactees' always insist that we go back to a simple agrarian lifestyle in small communities (i.e. hippie communes). In fact, the entire "contactee movement" sounds like a Woodstock concert rather than a serious event. I always imagine these concerned aliens arriving in a flying saucer equivalent to a VW van with big bright flowers painted on it and stickers that read, "Make love, not war!" and peace symbols hanging from the warp speed initiator lever.

As for ghosts ... meh. Who really knows what motivates them or what they hope to accomplish. I just get the impression that they can't manifest when and wherever they wish. Occasionally a ghost does show up during a news broadcast, but the media is quick to make fun of it as they always do. Yeah, most times it's easy to debunk ghosts. I'm a skeptic too and highly critical of photos and videos. But the skeptics out there use a lot of disingenuous arguments to trick the public into dismissing ghosts entirely. One such trick is telling people that if something can be hoaxed, then it was hoaxed. They don't actually try to prove a hoax by finding a UFO model in someone's garage or asking around the neighborhood about people around doing odd things at night, etc. Nope ... the debunkers instead try to recreate the photo or video, and if they can, then somehow that proves the video or photo was hoaxed.

JP Cusick wrote:I certainly have seen ghost and spirits and Demons many times, and I have done so along with other people there to experience it too. - I also believe that science has found a missing link in the "parallel universes" as that really explains a lot.

In fact, I think we see eye-to-eye on this issue for the most part. I am highly skeptical of alien abduction stories. In fact, I have found no good reason to believe they are true. UFO sightings in general are often seen by great masses of people whereas abductions are never witnessed by anyone -- and if someone claims to have seen one take place, it's always a husband or wife or someone else whose testimony would be dubious given the close relationship with the abductee. Yeah, the whole alien anus probes and whatnot is ridiculous and there is no good evidence that aliens are snatching farmers and housewives out of their beds to conduct sexual experiments upon.

I do feel that if aliens wanted to make contact, as you said, they would. And perhaps they have. We just aren't in the "inner circle" of knowledge, unfortunately. I have heard a lot of claims from people who say they've been contacted, but I feel it's a bunch of crap -- especially because these alleged "contactees" always put their own political spin on it. The aliens are always telling these bonehead contactees that Mankind must stop nuclear weapon testing, or using nuclear energy, or to stop fighting wars, or to stop polluting the earth, etc. What's more, these 'contactees' always insist that we go back to a simple agrarian lifestyle in small communities (i.e. hippie communes). In fact, the entire "contactee movement" sounds like a Woodstock concert rather than a serious event. I always imagine these concerned aliens arriving in a flying saucer equivalent to a VW van with big bright flowers painted on it and stickers that read, "Make love, not war!" and peace symbols hanging from the warp speed initiator lever.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:I don't mean to be facetious, well perhaps I do a little, but reading that I kept thinking "acid flashback"..

As for ghosts ... meh. Who really knows what motivates them or what they hope to accomplish. I just get the impression that they can't manifest when and wherever they wish. Occasionally a ghost does show up during a news broadcast, but the media is quick to make fun of it as they always do. Yeah, most times it's easy to debunk ghosts. I'm a skeptic too and highly critical of photos and videos. But the skeptics out there use a lot of disingenuous arguments to trick the public into dismissing ghosts entirely. One such trick is telling people that if something can be hoaxed, then it was hoaxed. They don't actually try to prove a hoax by finding a UFO model in someone's garage or asking around the neighborhood about people around doing odd things at night, etc. Nope ... the debunkers instead try to recreate the photo or video, and if they can, then somehow that proves the video or photo was hoaxed.

My problem with ghosts is my problems with all claims for the metaphysical, they nearly always cannot be falsified, so there is no way to validate them or disprove them, very much like religious faith. From personal experience the people I've heard make such claims are usually trying to reassure themselves of a dead relative trying to contact them, and this subjective desire combined with the lack of empirical evidence has too many alarm bells ringing for me.

There is a theory that most people believe they have had some kind of encounter with the dead - or whatever these things are.

It is also postulated that the dark matter in the universe may hold the key to a further dimension which may explain the spirit world. Quantum physics certainly opens the door to this strange idea, if we explore what Einstein expounded.

I certainly have seen ghost and spirits and Demons many times, and I have done so along with other people there to experience it too.

I also believe that science has found a missing link in the "parallel universes" as that really explains a lot.

==================================================

Shirina wrote:I put "scientific" in quotes because, if ghosts do exist, I'm confident that there will be a scientific explanation - perhaps bizarre rips in the walls that separate the various dimensions or similar parallel universes. I go along with what Dr. Brian Greene said once: "There's no such thing as the paranormal, just things that science hasn't explained yet."

:yeahthat:

And you know they were spirits, ghost and demons how? You are aware that group delusions are quite common, aren't you? So claiming your own perception of what you experienced is verified by those around you claiming to have experienced the same thing isn't always correct. What scientific steps were taken to research the experiences and claims?

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:And you know they were spirits, ghost and demons how? You are aware that group delusions are quite common, aren't you? So claiming your own perception of what you experienced is verified by those around you claiming to have experienced the same thing isn't always correct. What scientific steps were taken to research the experiences and claims?

Well I use empirical evidence - of course.

You can question your own life experiences but I do not do that for my life.

When I see things, hear things, experience things, feel things, and have other witnesses too, then all of that empirical evidence is accepted as truth and as real.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:And you know they were spirits, ghost and demons how? You are aware that group delusions are quite common, aren't you? So claiming your own perception of what you experienced is verified by those around you claiming to have experienced the same thing isn't always correct. What scientific steps were taken to research the experiences and claims?

and...."What scientific steps were taken to research the experiences and claims?"

You can question your own life experiences but I do not do that for my life.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Bully for you, I presume you go away from tawdry magic shows thinking people can actually do magic then?

When I see things, hear things, experience things, feel things, and have other witnesses too, then all of that empirical evidence is accepted as truth and as real.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Empiricism requires that experience and evidence be tested, with methods that remove subjectivity, as I've told you before what you're talking about is experiential evidence not empirical evidence.

stu wrote:Told you already Sheldon, he needs to go out and buy a dictionary and thesaurus. He may then know what posters are talking about.

It couldn't hurt, but to be honest he's so closed minded and his ideas so entrenched in his religious beliefs it'd make little difference to his mindset. He simply won't accept any amount of evidence that contradicts his world view, and cherry picks every piece of evidence that he thinks validates it, no matter how subjective.

I could look for that puncture repair kit in the garage or there's some of that stuff called 'Slime' that you put inside that stops air getting out. If I can find a pump I'll be ready to roll. Don't wait. I'll catch up, I normally do sooner or later.

There is a theory that most people believe they have had some kind of encounter with the dead - or whatever these things are.

I certainly have seen ghost and spirits and Demons many times, and I have done so along with other people there to experience it too.==================================================

Shirina wrote:I put "scientific" in quotes because, if ghosts do exist, I'm confident that there will be a scientific explanation - perhaps bizarre rips in the walls that separate the various dimensions or similar parallel universes. I go along with what Dr. Brian Greene said once: "There's no such thing as the paranormal, just things that science hasn't explained yet."

:yeahthat:

I thought an interesting addition to this subject is that the place here in the USA where recently 20 children and 6 adults were senselessly murdered in Sandy Hook Elementary school in Newtown Connecticut, and now the entire school is to be demolished as their way of getting rid of the ghost.

This is a new (and possibly an old) style of exorcism, but of course this exorcism is being done in an Atheist fashion.

So is that really fair to the spirits and ghost? do they not have their own right to life? and their right to haunt?

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:My problem with ghosts is my problems with all claims for the metaphysical, they nearly always cannot be falsified, so there is no way to validate them or disprove them, very much like religious faith.

I think ghosts could be falsified if the scientific community a) took ghosts seriously and b) were willing to put in the time needed to do so.

The problem, of course, is that we can't bring our positron colliders and ghost traps to a haunted house and capture a ghost. Nor can we make a ghost appear in a lab to run tests on it. Essentially, scientists would have to go to a reputedly haunted location and wait ... perhaps for a decidedly long period of time.

From personal experience the people I've heard make such claims are usually trying to reassure themselves of a dead relative trying to contact them, and this subjective desire combined with the lack of empirical evidence has too many alarm bells ringing for me.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:From personal experience the people I've heard make such claims are usually trying to reassure themselves of a dead relative trying to contact them, and this subjective desire combined with the lack of empirical evidence has too many alarm bells ringing for me.

I've done quite a bit of research on the ghost phenomenon; I feel that the more I know, the less likely it I'll be fooled by a hoax. After awhile, one can really tell the difference between a pack of lies and a story that the person at least believes is true. Plus one starts to develop a knack for sniffing out hoaxed photos and videos (PhotoShop has pretty much doomed the credibility of any photographic evidence).

The vast majority of ghost sightings didn't involve someone seeing a dead relative. Most of the "ghosts" are complete strangers; the witness never saw the person before. However, like you, I am highly suspicious of stories that claim grandma came back from the dead to offer up a plate of cookies. That is especially true if the relative died recently and the witness is still grieving.

In my area we have an old Civil War hospital / prison camp / grave yard, and years ago ABC News 20/20 brought a film crew to do a story on the ghost, and they did get pictures of the ghost but then refused to broadcast the story, and they told us (the locals) that people would not believe or accept the pictures and so their show could not risk that scandal.

You think the photograph is the evidence, but your own eyes and ears - no.

That is because photography is inadequate and un-secure. You blame the ghost when it is the camera which is debunked.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So a camera, which we know exists, and know how it works, and know that it works as it was empirically designed to work, and we can empirically test the results to validate these claims, is in fact - debunked.

because it can't take a photo for something concocted from pure fantasy, for which there isn't one single shred of evidence other than the testimony of the highly suggestive, overly credulous, or outright befuddled.