m2k - i think we agree more than we both realize - at least as far as what should be done but rationalize it w difft philosophies. i agree we need another safety - would be happy with antonio allen in rd 2 or 3 or maybe a free agent like tyvon branch, michael griffin. maybe that player starts over spievey or plays when someone struggles or if delmas gets hurt again. if spievey gets better than u save some money by not having to pay for delmas 2nd contract. OLB i would like a clear upgrade over levy at some point either this season or next. i think tulloch comes back. if there s a good pass rusher in rd 1 at DE I d take him esp is we cant get avril signed. We both think the offense needs another runner - could very well be a free agent or somewhere deeper in the draft rd4/5, k smith should come back and be insurance for leshoure/best/fa or draft pick. i dont mind a 4th wr, i think we definitely need a punter and on the OL they need to make at least one investment in a young player in the first 3 rounds that does not have an injury history and maybe make a play on a free agent.

anyway i think we agree even if we wont admit it but for now i need to get off this merry go round of an argument

February 6th, 2012, 9:01 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

The Legend wrote:

m2k - i think we agree more than we both realize - at least as far as what should be done but rationalize it w difft philosophies. i agree we need another safety - would be happy with antonio allen in rd 2 or 3 or maybe a free agent like tyvon branch, michael griffin. maybe that player starts over spievey or plays when someone struggles or if delmas gets hurt again. if spievey gets better than u save some money by not having to pay for delmas 2nd contract. OLB i would like a clear upgrade over levy at some point either this season or next. i think tulloch comes back. if there s a good pass rusher in rd 1 at DE I d take him esp is we cant get avril signed. We both think the offense needs another runner - could very well be a free agent or somewhere deeper in the draft rd4/5, k smith should come back and be insurance for leshoure/best/fa or draft pick. i dont mind a 4th wr, i think we definitely need a punter and on the OL they need to make at least one investment in a young player in the first 3 rounds that does not have an injury history and maybe make a play on a free agent.

anyway i think we agree even if we wont admit it but for now i need to get off this merry go round of an argument

I think you're right, and I believe that possibly we both overreacted to some things that were posted. I apologize for my part in that. No disrespect was never intended. It's all a matter of opinion anyways.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 7th, 2012, 10:47 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

It's garbage to say that the Giant's D "held one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL to 17 points." The Patriots were playing not to lose, which is the way Super Bowls have been played for at least the last few years. Last years game was a snoozer for the first half, as was this one. It started out with a bang, but quickly turned into a snoozer, and stayed that way until the 4th Q.

The Giants defense made stops when they had to. The fact that the Pats receivers were dropping balls makes no difference. That happens on both sides. It's silly to deny that once the Giants defense got healthy late in the season that it served as the turning point for the entire team.

wjb21ndtown wrote:

The bottom line is we still can't run the ball, our offense is one dimensional, and we CAN fix that with a draft pick or two. With a pick or two our Defense will still not be up to snuff.

I completely disagree with this assessment. I don't think the running game will be fixed with a pick or two, because it's not just a personnel problem. The scheme itself is not very good. It wasn't working with Best as the featured runner in either of the past two seasons. You can't just blame it on one guy on the offensive line, because we couldn't run inside or outside. The problem is as much scheme related as anything else. I don't like the playcalling, and in some cases I don't like the way the plays are designed. Even if we spend our first three picks on the offensive line, Best comes back healthy and our passing game is as effective as it was this year, I don't see our run game being that much better with Linehan calling plays. His passing game is good, but his running game scheme stinks.

On defense, I think a couple players being swapped out will make a HUGE difference. Bench Spievey and Levy. Get some upgrades at those two spots, then stop using the Wide 9 set up for every down. Do that, and I think our defense is able to stop the run far more effectively, and the pass defense will get better as well. I think fixing the defense is an easier task than fixing the running game.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 7th, 2012, 10:56 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

m2karateman wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

It's garbage to say that the Giant's D "held one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL to 17 points." The Patriots were playing not to lose, which is the way Super Bowls have been played for at least the last few years. Last years game was a snoozer for the first half, as was this one. It started out with a bang, but quickly turned into a snoozer, and stayed that way until the 4th Q.

The Giants defense made stops when they had to. The fact that the Pats receivers were dropping balls makes no difference. That happens on both sides. It's silly to deny that once the Giants defense got healthy late in the season that it served as the turning point for the entire team.

wjb21ndtown wrote:

The bottom line is we still can't run the ball, our offense is one dimensional, and we CAN fix that with a draft pick or two. With a pick or two our Defense will still not be up to snuff.

I completely disagree with this assessment. I don't think the running game will be fixed with a pick or two, because it's not just a personnel problem. The scheme itself is not very good. It wasn't working with Best as the featured runner in either of the past two seasons. You can't just blame it on one guy on the offensive line, because we couldn't run inside or outside. The problem is as much scheme related as anything else. I don't like the playcalling, and in some cases I don't like the way the plays are designed. Even if we spend our first three picks on the offensive line, Best comes back healthy and our passing game is as effective as it was this year, I don't see our run game being that much better with Linehan calling plays. His passing game is good, but his running game scheme stinks.

On defense, I think a couple players being swapped out will make a HUGE difference. Bench Spievey and Levy. Get some upgrades at those two spots, then stop using the Wide 9 set up for every down. Do that, and I think our defense is able to stop the run far more effectively, and the pass defense will get better as well. I think fixing the defense is an easier task than fixing the running game.

If we replace Peterman for Kontz and grab Gaither in FA (as has been rumored) IMO our run game will be fixed. We will be able to pound the ball up the middle, we will be able to gain ground in short yardage situations, and we will be physical upfront, which, IMO is the main problem.

I know you complain about the system, and say that it's not all personnel, but your argument is more that "with our current personnel we could be more imaginative." My argument is that with BETTER PERSONNEL we won't NEED to be more imaginative, we will simply be able to better move the ball in conventional ways. We can effectively fix our "scheme" problem with players, which IMO is the easier, and healthier move (remember, discussions of coordinator replacement are always surrounded with stability concerns and concerns as to how the players are going to react to the new coordinator).

February 7th, 2012, 5:09 pm

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

It's garbage to say that the Giant's D "held one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL to 17 points." The Patriots were playing not to lose, which is the way Super Bowls have been played for at least the last few years. Last years game was a snoozer for the first half, as was this one. It started out with a bang, but quickly turned into a snoozer, and stayed that way until the 4th Q.

The Giants defense made stops when they had to. The fact that the Pats receivers were dropping balls makes no difference. That happens on both sides. It's silly to deny that once the Giants defense got healthy late in the season that it served as the turning point for the entire team.

wjb21ndtown wrote:

The bottom line is we still can't run the ball, our offense is one dimensional, and we CAN fix that with a draft pick or two. With a pick or two our Defense will still not be up to snuff.

I completely disagree with this assessment. I don't think the running game will be fixed with a pick or two, because it's not just a personnel problem. The scheme itself is not very good. It wasn't working with Best as the featured runner in either of the past two seasons. You can't just blame it on one guy on the offensive line, because we couldn't run inside or outside. The problem is as much scheme related as anything else. I don't like the playcalling, and in some cases I don't like the way the plays are designed. Even if we spend our first three picks on the offensive line, Best comes back healthy and our passing game is as effective as it was this year, I don't see our run game being that much better with Linehan calling plays. His passing game is good, but his running game scheme stinks.

On defense, I think a couple players being swapped out will make a HUGE difference. Bench Spievey and Levy. Get some upgrades at those two spots, then stop using the Wide 9 set up for every down. Do that, and I think our defense is able to stop the run far more effectively, and the pass defense will get better as well. I think fixing the defense is an easier task than fixing the running game.

If we replace Peterman for Kontz and grab Gaither in FA (as has been rumored) IMO our run game will be fixed. We will be able to pound the ball up the middle, we will be able to gain ground in short yardage situations, and we will be physical upfront, which, IMO is the main problem.

I know you complain about the system, and say that it's not all personnel, but your argument is more that "with our current personnel we could be more imaginative." My argument is that with BETTER PERSONNEL we won't NEED to be more imaginative, we will simply be able to better move the ball in conventional ways. We can effectively fix our "scheme" problem with players, which IMO is the easier, and healthier move (remember, discussions of coordinator replacement are always surrounded with stability concerns and concerns as to how the players are going to react to the new coordinator).

Though I pretty much agree with all of M2's posts in this thread, Id have to agree with you on this one WJB. I think signing Gaither and drafting Konz will make a big improvement to our line in run blocking and pass blocking too. However, I have major doubt that we will draft Konz if hes still there, so that leaves us with just Gaither, and thats IF we sign him.

Another question worth considering is the percentage of shotgun snaps the offense is taking, which I think we can consider part of the "scheme." In 2010, the Lions set an NFL record of 64% shotgun snaps. The Lions were even higher--over 70%--this year. In 2009, the number was closer to 50%. Why the steady increase? Linehan's scheme has become more and more oriented toward the shotgun and making plays down field. One might also consider Stafford's injuries to be a factor in these adjustments. Either way, 70% shotgun means that we are sometimes trying to run out of the shotgun and that hasn't been terribly effective.

What I'm getting at is the possibility that the current scheme is perhaps in place in order to cover personnel deficiencies. Maybe a (needed) upgrade in personnel will allow a (needed) adjustment to the scheme.

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

February 7th, 2012, 6:06 pm

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

mwill2 wrote:

Another question worth considering is the percentage of shotgun snaps the offense is taking, which I think we can consider part of the "scheme." In 2010, the Lions set an NFL record of 64% shotgun snaps. The Lions were even higher--over 70%--this year. In 2009, the number was closer to 50%. Why the steady increase? Linehan's scheme has become more and more oriented toward the shotgun and making plays down field. One might also consider Stafford's injuries to be a factor in these adjustments. Either way, 70% shotgun means that we are sometimes trying to run out of the shotgun and that hasn't been terribly effective.

What I'm getting at is the possibility that the current scheme is perhaps in place in order to cover personnel deficiencies. Maybe a (needed) upgrade in personnel will allow a (needed) adjustment to the scheme.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

mwill2 wrote:

Another question worth considering is the percentage of shotgun snaps the offense is taking, which I think we can consider part of the "scheme." In 2010, the Lions set an NFL record of 64% shotgun snaps. The Lions were even higher--over 70%--this year. In 2009, the number was closer to 50%. Why the steady increase? Linehan's scheme has become more and more oriented toward the shotgun and making plays down field. One might also consider Stafford's injuries to be a factor in these adjustments. Either way, 70% shotgun means that we are sometimes trying to run out of the shotgun and that hasn't been terribly effective.

What I'm getting at is the possibility that the current scheme is perhaps in place in order to cover personnel deficiencies. Maybe a (needed) upgrade in personnel will allow a (needed) adjustment to the scheme.

What you state here is an excellent point.

I don't want the Lions to replace Linehan. I think he could develop a better running game. Maybe he does feel handcuffed by the lack of power blocking up front, so wjb you could very well be correct in your assessment there. But my issue is that I see teams like Pittsburgh struggling to keep linemen healthy, using their third back on the depth chart, and they are STILL able to run the ball effectively. I can only come to the conclusion is that the cause of it is a better running portion of their offensive scheme. They keep teams off balance more than the Lions, who run in the most obvious situations.

I am all for the Lions improving their offensive line. I've wanted them to do just that for years. And if that's what it takes for Linehan to open up the playbook a little more and become less predictable, so much the better.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 7th, 2012, 11:03 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: How Broken is the Defense? How Do You Fix It?

m2karateman wrote:

mwill2 wrote:

Another question worth considering is the percentage of shotgun snaps the offense is taking, which I think we can consider part of the "scheme." In 2010, the Lions set an NFL record of 64% shotgun snaps. The Lions were even higher--over 70%--this year. In 2009, the number was closer to 50%. Why the steady increase? Linehan's scheme has become more and more oriented toward the shotgun and making plays down field. One might also consider Stafford's injuries to be a factor in these adjustments. Either way, 70% shotgun means that we are sometimes trying to run out of the shotgun and that hasn't been terribly effective.

What I'm getting at is the possibility that the current scheme is perhaps in place in order to cover personnel deficiencies. Maybe a (needed) upgrade in personnel will allow a (needed) adjustment to the scheme.

What you state here is an excellent point.

I don't want the Lions to replace Linehan. I think he could develop a better running game. Maybe he does feel handcuffed by the lack of power blocking up front, so wjb you could very well be correct in your assessment there. But my issue is that I see teams like Pittsburgh struggling to keep linemen healthy, using their third back on the depth chart, and they are STILL able to run the ball effectively. I can only come to the conclusion is that the cause of it is a better running portion of their offensive scheme. They keep teams off balance more than the Lions, who run in the most obvious situations.

I am all for the Lions improving their offensive line. I've wanted them to do just that for years. And if that's what it takes for Linehan to open up the playbook a little more and become less predictable, so much the better.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we shouldn't "mix it up more," but IMO we have to add the ability to do certain things well to be able to mix things up. IMO we don't catch short yardage passes well. For whatever reason Pett, and Nate alligator arm a LOT of balls that are 7-10 yard catches. CJ is our deep threat, and Sheff and TY are good at the short passes, but we drop WAY TOO MANY because of Pett and Nate, IMO. It's just a casual observation that some may feel is unfair, but I see those two short arm a TON of catchable passes. For that reason our close range passing game sucks. We do well in the mid-range (10-15 yards), and we do well deep.

However, our screen game also sucks (be it WR screen or RB screen), and IMO that's the fault of the OL too. So Linehan is stuck with using two "forms" of offense if you will when no less than 6 or 7 should be available. That's why I think our offense is completely handcuffed by our offensive line. We can't run a screen, we can't throw short, and we can't run (and we can't play action without a respectable running game). What the hell is he supposed to do?