I'm Philip, I'm 22 and I'm currently a student in Dundee, Scotland, UK.

I've been a practicing Christian all my life, and I am fascinated by NDE's and what they can tell us about the afterlife. It was my Dad that introduced me to this phenomena, and I have read 'Proof of Heaven' by Dr Eben Alexander, and 'God and the afterlife', as well as hundreds of NDE accounts from this website.

I wish to discuss NDE's with my church pastor here in Dundee, and hopefully get small groups together where we can discuss this subject further. I believe this information can give new hope, deeper truth and re energise the church here in Scotland and the UK as a whole.

I am aware that NDE's can seemingly contradict Christian fundamentalist teachings, however I honestly believe this is due to historical misinterpretation in the past.

From doing my own research, I've found that NDE's have helped me understand biblical scriptures even more so than beforehand, for example 'I knew you before you were born' and 'God is love' etc etc

Anyway getting to the point, has anyone on this forum had experience talking about NDE in church circles? Let me know your thoughts and experiences if any It is something I am quite passionate about

In general, open discussion of NDE is discouraged by clergy. The basic position is that "we should not base faith on such things lest they fail." (Includes, for example, such things as Shroud of Turin.)

The obvious concern is that the standard precepts and concepts of the Christian Bible would be at risk of becoming usurped.

Religious structures, by their very nature, need a defined philosophy or belief structure upon which to officiate to (over?) a mass audience/followers.

Most Christian organizations are very structured and hierarchiacle, most often liturgical and each sect having its own dogmas & creeds. Most of them very much resemble military organizations with offices, positions and ranks (very much maybe like the Biblical God's "Lord of Hosts").

Like it or not, the fact of the matter is that organized religion is also involvement of managing a business enterprise (eg, building churches, managing buildings, buying furnishing, maintenance and repairs, paying salaries, newsletters, committees, etc. ad nauseum).

In general, anything that is deemed a threat to leadership authority, church/denomination doctrine or organizational stability will be resisted.

My advice is to be very conservative regarding any proposed activities involving open discussion about NDEs. Talk to your clergy first about anything that you might want to do.

A possibility for example, that might be acceptable would be to host a (Bible) study group that proposes to study or evaluate NDEes in the context of scripture. (Advice is that the scripture must be primo.)

DennisMe (Site Admin) is a pastor and should have some good practical recommendations.

You are three years older than my son and the picture you have chosen as your avatar reminds me a lot of his recent stay in Cracow a few months ago. We live in Italy, which is a very Catholic country, and I agree with Rey about being cautious with the way you approach the topic, though I do see opportunities for it to be accepted favourably under the proper circumstances.

My son has attended a Salesian School for eight years and the active Salesian priest who accompanied the group to Cracow and who has been his Religion teacher now for a couple of years has shown a very open interest in NDEs and has actually borrowed a couple of my books, one by Bettie Eady, Embraced by the Light, and one about a research on children’s NDEs. The last thing I heard last night is that he is taking those who are interested to meet His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Milan in a few weeks’ time.

St. John Bosco, who founded the Salesian Community in the 19th century, had to struggle a lot to have his ideas accepted by the church, and is well-known to have been guided by his dreams and visions, ever since he was a child. Nonetheless, thanks to his braveness and perseverance, he succeeded in creating a huge movement, which I am sure Jesus is proud of.

My feeling is that, if you are in touch with open-minded members of your congregation and can test their interest in the subject, you could have greater chances of arranging for NDEs to be taken seriously.

Regarding the Shroud in Turin, as far as I am aware, no sceptic researcher has so far been able to debunk it, as it appears to be the physical evidence of a tremendous energy transfer that nobody is able to explain save with the fact that it is genuine.

I find that there is a great hunger for scientific evidence of supernatural phenomena that may encourage people to experience religion in a more genuine and enthusiastic way, and that, if properly approached, NDEs could be one way of finding confirmation about the key points in Jesus' original teachings, so that they may be more actively practiced in everyday life.

Welcome Philip,
I happen to be a protestant pastor, though not actively commissioned at this time.
The most important thing you need is the church version of 'executive buy-in'. How talking about NDEs and the church stand in relation to one another depends on the congregation as a whole. No two congregations are exactly alike (however uniform they may appear to an outsider).

Talk to the pastor or whoever is responsible for learning and development and trust your gut to tell you if it will work out or not. If you find they are genuinely interested then why not? OTOH, if there is even a little resistance there you may find yourself alone, out on a limb. In that case see if you can pitch it to whatever commission is responsible (if you have such a thing) This may take up to a year depending on their planning and schedule, you can use this time to approach people in the corridors and discuss the matter one by one, building trust that you are not about to set fire to the church but you just want to expand understanding of an interesting phenomenon. You are not alone in this, you can contact a local chapter of IANDS and arrange for a speaker. This will add legitimacy to your cause and may be more of a learning experience for the congregation. make it an interesting evening and advertise locally. Also using a newly available book or the release of a popular film (hint: Keep an eye on Anita Moorjani) can act as a crow bar to awaken latent interest and get this going.

I have spoken of my own STE in front of a large congregation. It went well, a lot of people came forward to express sympathy and understanding, luckily the ones who possibly thought I was a crackpot held their mouths.
In another church (where I was pastor & acting preacher) I organized two evenings on the subject for smaller groups of interested people (also advertised and open to non-members). We discussed the book by Cardiologist Dr. Pim Van Lommel (which was then just out). In both sessions experiencers came forward and told their stories. If you have a medical establishment in your community, personnel will be very interested; remember to invite them directly if you intend to allow outside participants. Getting a speaker in from IANDs will help to attract a larger audience. A good selling point is that is a subject that interests many people and can help bridge the gap (gaping chasm) which is still growing between the church and the outside world.

I know that Dr. Pim van Lommel was invited to speak to a large gathering of pastors and preachers in the Netherlands and that he was well received. I was there too and learned that not all clergy is afraid of NDEs, many are open to a civil discussion at the very least and some are even experiencers themselves! There are a lot of clergy that feel threatened by recent developments in protestant theology that lead to a religious-atheist theology. This movement is gaining traction among academics, pastors included.
NDEs are proof that there is more between heaven and earth and not everything that matters needs to be taken purely on faith.
The reformation's "Sola Scriptura" and the personal experience NDEs (and their 'resonance' in many people) provide are fundamentally at odds with one another, and I posit that maybe its time us protestants recognized that old slogan has not stood the test of time.

Growing up a preacher's daughter I agree with advise given to approach the topic, initially anyway, by discussing relationship between scripture and how they support what NDErs say about their experiences....AND visa versa. Otherwise you may be accused of trying to bring "hoodoo" into the church setting.

I started pondering the same as you after realizing passages in the Bible I didn't understand began to make sense after reading something specific in the NDE accounts. First time I ever even thought about trying to relate the two was by surprise, so here's how it started.

Numerous NDE accounts speak of the individual first entering a black void of sorts. Within these accounts are some who also experience dark or evil entities that may or may not reach out as if to take hold of them. These folks either cry out to God or simply continue their journey towards a light or light being to bypass the entities. One day while reading an account of this nature, the thought entered my mind where in Psalms 23:4 it says, "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me;". How would the Psalmist know about the valley of the shadow of death unless they had an understanding of what happened upon entering the afterlife? Some may argue it was purely a metaphor, but I don't think so. I believe the ancients were very, very much more in tune spiritually as a whole than we are today.

Another topic. How would the ancients know our physical world was made of up "things which are unseen"? Did they have ancient microscopes to view molecules and atoms, or did they somehow know (from deep meditation or wisdom gained from those who had NDEs) that our world was really a creation by pure energy? In Corinthians it declares things unseen are eternal, while things seen are temporary. This is also related by NDErs all the time. How suddenly material things are meaningless to them during, and often even after, their experience.

You brought up a very, interesting topic which I'm now more interested in studying. Good luck, and let us know how it goes with your study group.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far today I've finished 2 bags of M&Ms and a chocolate cake. I feel better already!" ~ Dave Barry

As of right now, I have not ventured into church yet.. and very well may not, but we'll see...

I was conversing with a lady not too long ago that goes to one of our well-known churches around here, and I brought up nde's - mostly to see her reaction. And, unfortunately, she gets hesitant and says, "Oh... I don't know... they also say that satan can masquerade as an angel of light..." I mean, literally, says it exactly like that. :\ So it makes me assume (which I shouldn't do, in case it's wrong, but it's human nature to reach these kinds of conclusions based on "educated" guesses) that the church she attends has the same outlook and gets reluctant or downright dismissive about approaching this subject. But, like I said, perhaps I'm wrong...

That being said, I have known several Christians that are very open to this subject, and mention that if God/Jesus can speak to us before, in dreams/visions/etc., why not now? We just have to use our very best discernment to not be led astray, which makes me wonder if even some people in the bible may have been. That's why it confuses me when people are so against nde's or the possibility that God is speaking to those of us nowadays. What makes them think that the people that had visions of God from the bible weren't mistakenly seeing satan "masquerading as an angel of light"? What made them absolutely certain? Granted, I have not read the bible all the way through, so I only have what little knowledge that I have managed to read, but I can honestly say that certain books/passages do not "jive" with me. And perhaps that also boils down to my interpretation, based on the actual meaning. I do wish to understand further, so at the moment have been listening to podcasts and sermons from the radio and searching online ministries and things of the like.

I wish you well on this endeavor! Hopefully whatever church(es) you bring this subject to will be open and welcoming to discussing it. : )

I have no answer myself since i am plagued with this question...talk or keep silent? Who do you affect and how when you talk...and what are the effects and what to do.

The old bible saying ...dont throw pearls at swine?

I have learnt that its safest to shut up. That hot info that is right for you is not right for them and it deeeply upsets and disorients unnecessarily. We are not all at the same place on our journey of life ormopen to the same info.

So what happens is that for every insight there must be a equal unsight (false addition) to equalise and help the disoriented regain their footing. So they latch on to what they need to wipe out something they arent ready to hear.

It doesnt mean they are not advanced ...it just means they are intentionally walking a path devoid of signposts to learn something...how to balance in the dark?

So dont peofide light...its not wanted. You are depriving them of something!

Is it because i cut my posts because delete wasnt available? I know i am human and torn by indecision as to what to say...torn by directly helping someone and realising there are lurkers and incorrect viewers and best to not say something? Because stupid actions need correction when I realise they do? End of the day i dont care if delete makes post unreadable. I am the hilder of the copyright thry Re my experiences and i want to delete then it should be deletable.

And forum admin.... yelling and other semi-crude feedback doesnt do much! Just sets the tone and expectation and confirms its best to say nothing.

Not to worry,....my need to help is not as strong as my need to protect for myself.

Dont forget that even Jesus...with all the info and insights he gave and had...still prayed at Gethsamene for the cup of suffering to be taken from him if possible. When we are human, we are subjected to magnetic forces that are quite something and if he couldnt fully overcome them...then we know they are strong!! By his actions he was telling us..... its ok to fear and quake and lose balance sometimes......

autumn wrote:Dont forget that even Jesus...with all the info and insights he gave and had...still prayed at Gethsamene for the cup of suffering to be taken from him if possible. When we are human, we are subjected to magnetic forces that are quite something and if he couldnt fully overcome them...then we know they are strong!! By his actions he was telling us..... its ok to fear and quake and lose balance sometimes......

Assuming the translations are correct, Autumn, I have no original version of Jesus' words saying he was subject to the magnetic sources you mention. Please provide original quote in the language used by Jesus. Thanks

Although we don't have the original recording of Jesus' words and we never will (not while we walk the earth). I do believe Autumn has a valid point.

There are more times when Jesus shed tears and was moved in the canonical NT, and even more in the Gnostics.
Leaving out dogma, looking at Jesus from a historical humanist perspective it would be very very strange if he didn't.

From a dogmatic perspective he is said to be wholly (100%) human and wholly (100%) God at the same time. Fair enough, but have you ever seen someone who is 100% human and yet has no remorse or fear? Isn't fear and remorse part of what makes us human? A psychopath comes close but, somehow that doesn't sit right with me ;-D

As a theologian there is something very sacred, something holy, that happens when people read the bible for themselves, especially those "uninformed" by dogma and church history etc. Their ideas can be very enlightening and quite refreshing to me as a long-time believer. You see, as Christians we too often waste valuable time arguing amongst ourselves and preaching to the choir as it were. We tend to go round in circles in our own safe environment. People from outside help to broaden our own perspective.

Although biblical textual criticism, historical criticism and other scientific approaches to theology are sacred to me, there's just something that happens when people read those ancient words. Much like what happens when people look at art, the art influences them and something new arises in the meeting. This to me, is an aspect of creation itself manifesting in our daily lives and it is worthy of the utmost respect, even when it seems irreverent or even shocking.

Isiah 55:10

As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Although biblical textual criticism, historical criticism and other scientific approaches to theology are sacred to me, there's just something that happens when people read those ancient words. Much like what happens when people look at art, the art influences them and something new arises in the meeting. This to me, is an aspect of creation itself manifesting in our daily lives and it is worthy of the utmost respect, even when it seems irreverent or even shocking.

Isiah 55:10

As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

for someone who hasn't read the Bible these words make perfect sense to me

I scratch my head in confusion.... where did you get the idea i need help? Do you .... and project it? Its your assessment so one supposes its a peoduct of your state of mind.

When i said 'stop the self destruct', i rather thought the intent was obvious but i suppose we have to get basic and explain.

There are aleays two in a relationship. The perpetrator and the victim....or bully and victim. They are role playing eqch caught in the same failing they project, each triggering and receiving the outcome they want.

Its not a mystery and its not an accident.

We push those buttons in people...we get the response we secretly crave and then bitch like mad and play the innocent victim.

There cannot be a bully or perpatrator without the victim.

And there cannot be a situation where someone has caused without a response. Reap what you sow.

Like you are trying to do by playing stupid to see if you can rile me up.

So i give you one strike to test intent and if it continues...making provocative statements.....after that i will ignore you. Find a perp to play your game.

The LAW OF ATTRACTION works on electromagnetic principles. Study physics and you will understand we are electromagnetic beings in a world made of energy. We are nergy beings, we use energy, we create with energy. What we create consists of energy...since we are energy, we create with energy. We send it out to the universe and as the law of attraction states...it attracts for like to the power of ten and returns to maker.

Surely to goodness by now, having started to question how this universe and dimension works you cannot be as dense as you play? You seriously cannot think that all these OBEs etc and all are all unexplicable miracles and mysteries? We have left that simple state behind in the first mellenium. We are miles up the road to quantum physics where i suspect our knowledge will destroy the universe ...because what you study you change.

You cannot be serious. I cant possibly be the one to educate you. Its too big a task for this forum and this post. You are expecting far too much. Therefore the only reasonable and logical deduction is you are fully intelligent and fully updated and game playing.

Lastly this forum software you use has settings to permit deletion and editing and your admin changed it to limit edit to 15 mins...after i intelligently cut to circumvent the missing delete, the edit was altered also to prevent edit too. Something doesnt sit right with the intent behind that action to remove ability to alter posts. This forum does not move that fast that you cant edit or delete and something is lost in a conversation...when that conversation goes over weeks never mind days! That excuse doesnt hold water.

not to worry...i have noted and made my decision to flit along the outskirts for entertainment only....and maintain the law of secrets strictly.

I scratch my head in confusion.... where did you get the idea i need help? Do you .... and project it? Its your assessment so one supposes its a peoduct of your state of mind.

When i said 'stop the self destruct', i rather thought the intent was obvious but i suppose we have to get basic and explain.

There are aleays two in a relationship. The perpetrator and the victim....or bully and victim. They are role playing eqch caught in the same failing they project, each triggering and receiving the outcome they want.

Its not a mystery and its not an accident.

We push those buttons in people...we get the response we secretly crave and then bitch like mad and play the innocent victim.

There cannot be a bully or perpatrator without the victim.

And there cannot be a situation where someone has caused without a response. Reap what you sow.

Like you are trying to do by playing stupid to see if you can rile me up.

So i give you one strike to test intent and if it continues...making provocative statements.....after that i will ignore you. Find a perp to play your game.

Good day this is Garry the Administrator you have referred to a few paragraphs down .

I will address that paragraph when I come to it but at the moment I was wondering if you can explain the above paragraph more so, this particular statement

where did you get the idea i need help? Do you .... and project it? Its your assessment so one supposes its a peoduct of your state of mind.

The LAW OF ATTRACTION works on electromagnetic principles. Study physics and you will understand we are electromagnetic beings in a world made of energy. We are nergy beings, we use energy, we create with energy. What we create consists of energy...since we are energy, we create with energy. We send it out to the universe and as the law of attraction states...it attracts for like to the power of ten and returns to maker.

Surely to goodness by now, having started to question how this universe and dimension works you cannot be as dense as you play? You seriously cannot think that all these OBEs etc and all are all unexplicable miracles and mysteries? We have left that simple state behind in the first mellenium. We are miles up the road to quantum physics where i suspect our knowledge will destroy the universe ...because what you study you change.

You cannot be serious. I cant possibly be the one to educate you. Its too big a task for this forum and this post. You are expecting far too much. Therefore the only reasonable and logical deduction is you are fully intelligent and fully updated and game playing.

autumn wrote:Lastly this forum software you use has settings to permit deletion and editing and your admin changed it to limit edit to 15 mins...after i intelligently cut to circumvent the missing delete, the edit was altered also to prevent edit too. Something doesnt sit right with the intent behind that action to remove ability to alter posts. This forum does not move that fast that you cant edit or delete and something is lost in a conversation...when that conversation goes over weeks never mind days! That excuse doesnt hold water.

I will address this paragraph after I have an explanation of the first paragraph and statement that I asked about

autumn wrote:not to worry...i have noted and made my decision to flit along the outskirts for entertainment only....and maintain the law of secrets strictly.