I took two units of crossbwomen to play against Wood Elves today and was happy with how they performed. I have to say that I think in a lot of situations missile troops have their place in Warhammer games, even expensive stand-and-shoot ones. They may not normally put out as much hurt as say a Helblaster with an engineer, but they have many tactical advantages. For one, they are especially resiilient against small units of war machine hunters like Glade Riders or any other type of Light Cavalry because of their ability to be Steadfast. I think with detachments of missile troops they can also help cover a lot of angles from units trying to get around to our back ranks. For those reasons, plus the fact that they are a ranked unit (thus able to control the direction of pursuit), makes them a good speedbumb for our artillery.

I can definately see the versatility of having a squad of crossbows/gunners vs a war machine, but when comparing damage output, I'm just not convinced.

For my Helblaster by itself, I can get 14 crossbow/gunners. That is a possible 30 shots vs 14 with a higher degree of success. I am not a mathhammermatitian, but believe on average the helgunner will do more damage.

You pretty much used them against the only army they would be viable against. Wood Elves.

Wood elves have very low armour high cost models, lots of ranged stuff, and they are NOT charging your lines. So a couple xbow units does alot.

Glade riders may be guys on horses with spears, etc.... but in terms of damage and defence they are essentially toughness 3 armour 6+ models. That, my friend, is the bare bones of this game. Toughness and armour save. GW would have you believe its Weapon Skill but its not.

You pretty much used them against the only army they would be viable against. Wood Elves.

Wood elves have very low armour high cost models, lots of ranged stuff, and they are NOT charging your lines. So a couple xbow units does alot.

Glade riders may be guys on horses with spears, etc.... but in terms of damage and defence they are essentially toughness 3 armour 6+ models. That, my friend, is the bare bones of this game. Toughness and armour save. GW would have you believe its Weapon Skill but its not.

Recently I have been taking lists at 1500pts to prepare for my campaign in oct, and, according to the background of my army(set in the border princes) they only really use artillery to defend cities, and so naturally I haven't been taking any.

My lists so far have included WAAAAAAAAAY more models with the reduction in characters/magic items. So conversly I have been able to take my full compliment of missile armed troops.

The last game I had I took 20 archers in detachments/huntsmen roles, 20 crossbowmen in 2 units of 10 on each flank and a unit of 15 handgunners deployed centrally.

And while helblasters and other flashier war machines in our new rules do more damage per use, the fact that I am fielding 55 more models then before for only about 470pts is not too bad, especially when they are deployed correctly.

And now that I sort of realised the increased effect of having more models in 1500pts(last game I had 174 models in my army) I decided to drop all war machines all together and instead take more troops.

And while the tourney heavy armies seem to rely on helblasters for their damage potential and output, I have found that having multiple units of missile units really opens your options and puts pressure on the opponent from the turn, rather than squander the precious war machine fire... So at the moment, while everyone will say warmachines are better, I say missile units are better than war machines...

I am no mathhammer wizard, so litterly broke out the dice and rolled some stuff.For my 2k game I'm going to run xbows instead of the Helblaster. I have gauranteed more hits per and in a pinch, can flank an enemy with a squad of 10 denying them rank bonuses.

I would say that xbows/handguns are decent against all elves as they tend to be elite low toughness, low armour. Even my cold one knights fear handgunners. Wounding on 3s with a 4+ save can make quite a dent in you.

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Quote from: PhillyT

Magic does not have nearly the same problems with power levels as magic.

Engineers w Pigeon bombs are the PERFECT babysitter for a Helblaster. If you're playing one of the scenarios where you start 24 inches apart and you get first turn and you have your helblaster + engineer on the 12 inch line, you can move the engineer up a couple inches to where he's still in range of the helblaster for turn 2 and fire off a pigeon bomb since the PB is no longer Move or Fire.

You pretty much used them against the only army they would be viable against. Wood Elves.

Wood elves have very low armour high cost models, lots of ranged stuff, and they are NOT charging your lines. So a couple xbow units does alot.

Glade riders may be guys on horses with spears, etc.... but in terms of damage and defence they are essentially toughness 3 armour 6+ models. That, my friend, is the bare bones of this game. Toughness and armour save. GW would have you believe its Weapon Skill but its not.

This is so painfully true. Don't get me wrong, I love my tree-hugging hippies of Athel Loren, but, damn, they need a new book . . .

Recently I have been taking lists at 1500pts to prepare for my campaign in oct, and, according to the background of my army(set in the border princes) they only really use artillery to defend cities, and so naturally I haven't been taking any.

Yeah I will be sigging that if is cool with you..(LSP- wherever you are, you know why I said that )

It is so interesting to play guys after saying you play Empire, and you see them deploy so much anti artillery stuff so when you finish deploying, and they go "What no cannons?" I say yeah thats right... You can literally see the confusion and fear in their faces that all the stuff they took to counter your artillery just is overwhelmed by archer detachments and crossbowmen.

But it is just so freeing to play an army and not have warmachines... You don't have to worry about stuff coming on from behind (miners became useless when there are no war machines to attack, only handgunners that got to shoot twice and turn back around) and all the fast stuff you have missile infantry to deal with.

Also, taking 1 character with no magic items in 1500pts is super satisfying to see him survive the game.

My two units of 6 handgunners have been doing extremely well. Small enough to avoid destruction, or sacrifice. Large enough to kill chariots, fast cav or redirectors, and let my big guns do their jobs.

Engineers w Pigeon bombs are the PERFECT babysitter for a Helblaster. If you're playing one of the scenarios where you start 24 inches apart and you get first turn and you have your helblaster + engineer on the 12 inch line, you can move the engineer up a couple inches to where he's still in range of the helblaster for turn 2 and fire off a pigeon bomb since the PB is no longer Move or Fire.

Be aware, however, that the Engineer cannot release his pigeon and use the Master of Ballistics rule in the same shooting phase.

So I took Handgunners and a Hellblaster for my game against WoC last night and we decided to play watchtower. The Helblaster performed very well, killing probably about 8-9 Nurgle Warriors (-1 to hit) in he tower with no misfires, but only when it had an engineer and a buff and it's target was debuffed from my wizard. The handgunners routed some wolves and killed one or two Warriors but otherwise didn't do a whole lot. I don't think it was a great game to get an idea of what the missile troops were capable of damage output-wise since they were way out on the flanks and nothing tried to attack them, but maybe that's the beauty of it. My opponent's not going to send dogs to assault 2 ranks of handgunners, and if I put my helblaster in the middle of my line it's well protected by my melee blocks and doesn't have to worry about wasting shots on them.

@ la guerra.Did you by any chance, advance with the handgunners once the wolves were disintegrated?

I did that in a previous game, agressively advanced with my handgunners and crossbowmen first turn and then the crossbows on the right and left flanks spent half the game moving forward into position so that when they did fire, they were 6 inches away from the enemy and unloaded at point blank range.

Even though 8inches isn't the fastest, it really adds up when you move them every turn till you are within half range.

Yeah I will be sigging that if is cool with you..(LSP- wherever you are, you know why I said that )

I actually tend to forget about such stuff very fast, Derek, but since you mention it I assume it is because you felt the need to put a childish personal insult into your sig by quoting me out of context. Nothing new in the west.

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Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - S. Clemens

On the left flaank where the wolves were it didn't really matter because my combat troops wiped out the rest of his troops there, but he had some warriors way off in the right corner that I was shooting at long range. I was expecting them to advance so I kept my distance, but I think you're right, I should've advanced with them to apply added pressure at close range. As it was they just ignored my handgunners and sat there the rest of the game.