Christian turned against the corporation of religion, neither agnostic nor atheist not really all that 'Christian' anymore.

I do believe that Christ existed and that he was at least an embodiment of God, I don't think he's the only one because I refuse to think that if the shit hit the fan tomorrow that 4.5 billion people, not to mention all the billions who passed away before would rot in the pits of hell because they weren't privy to the correct 'dogma'. It's such nonsense it's almost good enough to believe.

The greatest gift my parents ever gave to me was an open mind.
I was neither sold against or for the church in the strictest sense.
My mother is a fundamentalist evangelical (basically) and my father is totally void of religion. How that worked out, I still try to balance, point being, I'd like to think I approached the whole thing with neither a bias towards one or the other and thus, I am still without any real answers, much like a lot of other people. Thank God, (maybe some irony there?), I am free of the dogma.

If you see a contradiction and you believe in the power of God, the ultimate authority, you can either apologize for it, have some old man behind a podium do it for you, or you can try and find your own relationship with God. But that's not real good for business.

Also, there are other options on the table.
ET tweaking the primate DNA makes as much sense as a man in a whale and talking snakes. I actually lean that way these days, laugh if you want, I'm not out on streetcorners championing a change in policy that will effect YOU.

Originally posted by U2DMfan I refuse to think that if the shit hit the fan tomorrow that 4.5 billion people, not to mention all the billions who passed away before would rot in the pits of hell because they weren't privy to the correct 'dogma'.

if this were true than God would not be just

if God is not just, than the God concept is blown all to pieces

don't forget all the aborted babies and fetuses that are all rotting in hell, too.

Originally posted by A_Wanderer I have yet to hear a sensible rationalisation for the problem of evil, a problem that does not exist in a materialistic universe.

I used to have sleep paralysis about once a week, and anyone who's had it will tell you, it's enough to make you shit your pants.

But then I started reading about it, how it's just a natural process, I started easing out of it. And, hopefully I won't jinx myself, I haven't had an episode in about 3 years.

Anyhow, those not familiar, it's a feeling of abject fear and a prescence of evil. You cannot move your body but you are awake.

I think alot of those thoughts (as it happened) come from the subconscience. Since I came to a realization about it, after years of thinking how 'evil' it was, not only has it not happened but I think part of the reason was mental. Well, the thoughts as it occured, that is. The physical reason is usually due to stresses.

The thing itself, as most basically said, your mind wakes up before your body does. It's called 'Old hag' in some cultures, it has different names. Basically once the mysticism was knocked off, I stopped thinking there was a demon fucking with me (or whatever). It became a natural process to me. What once was evil, was bullshit. Maybe that's a small symbol of how it breeds, or not.

There are those who will say that a Ouija board can bring some bad mojo, but I won't jack with those. As for 'born evil'. It just doesn't make any sense. Who can say Hitler was born evil? That's a cop out, he could have been turned any which way.
Naturally evil? I don't know. What is the purpose, even for God?

I’m a former Christian fundamentalist who is now Agnostic. I believed with blind faith and it’s taken me years to tell myself that I was simply brainwashed by the church. I still sometimes go through waves of confusion but you just have to block it out of your mind, and that’s taken a long time for me.

There are contradictions in the Bible and it’s been translated over and over. So many people have different beliefs on various verses of scripture, I found myself questioning is this really the inherent word of God? But that was just one of my many doubts.

The one thing that scared me in the church was how hypocritical and morally pretentious a lot of them really are - I was glad to get out of it.

you don't need to believe in god to acknowledge evil. I see it as a description of one path humanity can take. To say it does not exist is absurd. Evil does not necessarily denote 'the Devil', although it might be an expression of the devils inherent in our collective nature.

The dilemma is that any God is either unable or unwilling to eliminate evil or has in fact deliberately added evil to creation, that dilemma about the nature of God and how evil can exist does not present itself in a universe without God.

'evil' will exist in any universe irrespective of an involvement of God. It's only that religion takes it upon itself to explain everything in the universe with farcsicle stories. In the case of Christianity, we are naturally flawed. This is because of Adam and Eve and the original sin allegory where we have an embedded propensity for evil.
But yeh there is a hole in religion where they (specifically Christianity) are insinuating that evil is exclusive to a universe run by God. Without God there is no evil apparantly! Religion really is the root of all evil.

Originally posted by A_Wanderer The dilemma is that any God is either unable or unwilling to eliminate evil or has in fact deliberately added evil to creation, that dilemma about the nature of God and how evil can exist does not present itself in a universe without God.

God allows evil due to free will. With respect to free will, though, he gave us a choice in conquering evil through faith in Christ. If death is the result of evil, especially spiritual death, than Christ is the lifeline. He didn't add evil to creation, we did.

Evil is not the only product of free action and free thought, and the centuries of opression, slavery, statism and ethnic cleansing perpretrated for the acceptance of Christ are a testament to this.

If we are truly made in the image of God then what a petty and flawed character it must be. If God could not create inherently good people who could be responsible and respectful to eachother than how can it be deemed omnipotent or good?

Originally posted by A_Wanderer Evil is not the only product of free action and free thought, and the centuries of opression, slavery, statism and ethnic cleansing perpretrated for the acceptance of Christ are a testament to this.

If we are truly made in the image of God then what a petty and flawed character it must be. If God could not create inherently good people who could be responsible and respectful to eachother than how can it be deemed omnipotent or good?

You bring up some good points, but nowhere in the Bible, certainly not from the mouth of Christ himself, do we hear commands or suggestions to use opression, slavery, statism and ethnic cleansing to spread the Gospel. It's quite the opposite, in fact. I'm sure you already know this. If such forms of opression are used, then it goes against the Bible. It's just another bad mix of poliltical ambition and religion, really.

To answer your second point, we're made in the image of God, but that doesn't mean we are his equal. There are numerous verses that say this too. This is why God had to come down here and die in our place -- he did live the perfect life. The standard you're actually calling for is Christ.

That standard is what a truly compassionate deity would create, it is not impossible to have free will and inherent goodness; a utopia (or distopia, depending on ones point of view) could be created by God but for whatever reason it would create beings that have the illusion of choice (since rejecting this blood sacrifice condemns the individual), why would such a deity demand gratification from coercion?

In the absence of evil and death there is no compulsion to submit to the idea of God, I would argue that the idea of God is neccessitated by those things and follows from them.