I can understand Ozil’s reasoning for meeting Erdogan and I don’t doubt his explanation but it was a naive decision given what is going on in that country. Not being German I don’t have much of an opinion past that because I don’t know enough about the context.

Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.

Goat Boy wrote:I can understand Ozil’s reasoning for meeting Erdogan and I don’t doubt his explanation but it was a naive decision given what is going on in that country. Not being German I don’t have much of an opinion past that because I don’t know enough about the context.

I think he received justified criticism for that. I think the problem is then conflating that with Germany's poor world cup performance. He's been used as a scapegoat.

"Excuse my dust.""It put me back in my place and made me realize, yes I'm just a cunt in a clown suit.""The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here"

Goat Boy wrote:I can understand Ozil’s reasoning for meeting Erdogan and I don’t doubt his explanation but it was a naive decision given what is going on in that country. Not being German I don’t have much of an opinion past that because I don’t know enough about the context.

I think he received justified criticism for that. I think the problem is then conflating that with Germany's poor world cup performance. He's been used as a scapegoat.

Perhaps he is but whether it’s racist, I dunno.

I’d like to read some German perspectives.

What does Boris Becker think?

Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.

Goat Boy wrote:I can understand Ozil’s reasoning for meeting Erdogan and I don’t doubt his explanation but it was a naive decision given what is going on in that country. Not being German I don’t have much of an opinion past that because I don’t know enough about the context.

I think he received justified criticism for that. I think the problem is then conflating that with Germany's poor world cup performance. He's been used as a scapegoat.

Perhaps he is but whether it’s racist, I dunno.

I’d like to read some German perspectives.

What does Boris Becker think?

Well it seems from his statement that he’s had racist abuse from fans and perhaps experienced discriminatory treatment from up on high too, in which case I think his reaction is brave and justified.

When the Swedish winger Durmaz was racially abused after the Germany game, the team and FA spoke out and supported him whereas nothing like that seems to have happened with Özil.

But then again if he is just having a go at the FA for being critical of his Erdogan hangout then sorry, they were right about that. Doesn’t excuse any other racism he’s experienced of course.

fange wrote:One of the things i really dislike in this life is people raising their voices in German.

The Modernist wrote:I think he received justified criticism for that. I think the problem is then conflating that with Germany's poor world cup performance. He's been used as a scapegoat.

Perhaps he is but whether it’s racist, I dunno.

I’d like to read some German perspectives.

What does Boris Becker think?

Well it seems from his statement that he’s had racist abuse from fans and perhaps experienced discriminatory treatment from up on high too, in which case I think his reaction is brave and justified.

When the Swedish winger Durmaz was racially abused after the Germany game, the team and FA spoke out and supported him whereas nothing like that seems to have happened with Özil.

But then again if he is just having a go at the FA for being critical of his Erdogan hangout then sorry, they were right about that. Doesn’t excuse any other racism he’s experienced of course.

Well you’ll always get the idiots crawling out of the woodwork, especially these days. If the DFB weren’t more supportive in public then I agree that’s not good enough, especially when some were using Ozil’s and Gundogans meeting with Erdogan for nefarious far right purposes.

Grindel has made some statements in the past about multiculturalism but I can’t find the original context. One could infer certain attitudes from this (there is a quote about multiculturalism being a “lie”).

Whether there was something darker going on from Grindel in picking out Ozil I dunno, maybe him and Bierhoff simply saw it as expedient to protect their own arses. I wouldn’t rule it out something darker going on though but it might also be Ozil reaching a bit.

Griff wrote:The notion that Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong vocal proponent of antisemitism, would stand in front of an antisemitic mural and commend it is utterly preposterous.

Wasn't it Gundogan (not Ozil) who made the twiiter comment after the Erdogan photo about "My President"? I'm not sure Ozil actually distanced himself from that statement but, if he didn't, then I can see how some would conclude that he was effectively endorsing Gundogan's view.

"Excuse my dust.""It put me back in my place and made me realize, yes I'm just a cunt in a clown suit.""The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here"

The Modernist wrote:I think he received justified criticism for that. I think the problem is then conflating that with Germany's poor world cup performance. He's been used as a scapegoat.

Perhaps he is but whether it’s racist, I dunno.

I’d like to read some German perspectives.

What does Boris Becker think?

Well it seems from his statement that he’s had racist abuse from fans and perhaps experienced discriminatory treatment from up on high too, in which case I think his reaction is brave and justified.

When the Swedish winger Durmaz was racially abused after the Germany game, the team and FA spoke out and supported him whereas nothing like that seems to have happened with Özil.

But then again if he is just having a go at the FA for being critical of his Erdogan hangout then sorry, they were right about that. Doesn’t excuse any other racism he’s experienced of course.

It’s hard to separate the two. I have no doubt Ozil has experienced racist abuse both in the past and in the present. But i do wonder how much that has to do with the Erdogan thing, which is a very different kettle of fish. The very fact that he explicitly explains that his Erdogan photo had nothing to do with politics, when it clearly has everything to do with politics, speaks of someone who is very dim, particularly as he appears entirely bemused that it could cause offense - particularly in a country where Erdogan is deliberately interfering/stirring up nationalist sentiment and targeting critical journalists.

Of course racism is always wrong, but I suspect the Swedish team’s reaction to the Durmaz situation would have looked VERY different if it had been preceded with a photo op of Durmaz and Erdogan.

Is the Erdogan photo enough to single him out for Germany's failings in the competition though? I agree he was very naive, but the way certain figures like Beirhoff and others singled him out was distasteful, especially given he was actually one of Germany's better players in the Korea game. It felt like picking on the kid who is perceived to be an outsider, not part of the gang.

If people are criticising him because of his (admittedly, three generations old) Turkish origins, then that is clearly not acceptable - and I'm not sure how anyone can defend that.If he's being criticised for the photo op, well to be honest I think he needs to suck-it-up and realise how stupid and naive it was.If he's being criitcised for his performances only, well that's entirely subjective, and something he may not like but entirely reasonable. If he chooses to then conflate that with his Turkish heritage, then he is at fault.

"Excuse my dust.""It put me back in my place and made me realize, yes I'm just a cunt in a clown suit.""The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here"