Atheist new to old anti christian what? Interesting MOS. It's amusing how you try in different ways to discredit me for ever being a Christian by saying Catholics are not really Christians, then you didn't expect to find out I was also a member of united church of canada which is the protestant church. So now you're classifying me with atheists. Good for you.

I said you were akin to (not "affiliated with") new atheists in that you discover old anti-Christian arguments and objectives that you present as fresh and irrefutable evidence to back your position yet you don't realize those old objections have been long since been debunked/refuted and resolved.

I quoted the bible on verses which speak about God forgiving people without any sacrifice or people being killed.

So in doing so you believe you've "found a contradiction" or "refuted Jesus' act on the cross", correct?

What you've done is display examples of his grace and mercy.

In the OT God did forgive sins without immediate bloodshed. Christ also forgave sins without the immediate shedding of blood. He did so with the paralytic man...told him his sins are forgiven and to get up and walk. So from your seat Christ's death on Calvary's cross is meaningless, right? "Look, God can forgive sins without bloodshed! The cross was pointless!" God's forgiveness isn't for or about God, it's for and about you and me. The final act of atonement via blood shed was accomplished in one fail swoop with Christ's sacrifice, but if all sins were "just forgiven" without any afterthought or consideration on our part the forgiveness is meaningless. In all things God works within the confines of our lives in order to fulfill his will for our lives and draw us closer to him. Christ's sacrifice on the cross, our acknowledgment of that sacrifice, our acceptance of him as our God, Lord and Savior and our repentance of sin (changing our minds about sin and moving our lives away from those sinful acts is of the utmost importance). God desires for us to choose him and choose his will for our lives. As believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit we are guided and directed...he speaks to our souls loud and clear.

Colossians 2:6-13

6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.

8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.

13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.

Or you will conjure up totally magical explanations for the verses that contradict your views. For example Jesus not knowing things and saying only God knows them, or Jesus being powerless and all power stemming from God alone, etc... as.. oh God was trying to be humble or God was trying to act in his human state, or God gave up his powers while in his human state, etc... Your OWN conjectures and explanations NOT divine at all.

No, you resort to "magical explanation" retorts because you resent a cogent answer being given that resolves your "irrefutable dilemna"...that's just pride talking.

Likewise with calling Jesus God. You DESPERATELY post a few skewed alluring verses. YET... we will find HUNDREDS of explicit verses which showcase Jesus being just a prophet, just a messenger, just a human being who is frail and dependant. Instead you focus hundreds of pages of threads on those few ellusive verses and copy paste them, bold them, yet all the other verses.. oh it's just there. It 'speaks' about "god's" human state, the Jesus that is very human, very god all in one.

You cling to the verses in which others initially perceived Jesus as only prophet...this was simple ignorance on their part. That initial perception isn't all encompassing though....you force fit it as such. Christ certainly was prophetic in what he said on occassions, but he demonstrated and articulated that he was far more than that. Because of the lens of Islam you hold passionately to any reference concerning the the prophetic nature of Christ despite so many verses indicating how much, much more he was and what he demonstrated and articulated and how others articulated how much more he was.

Since you brought up Paul and "the wages of sin", and since you quoted Ezekiel 18:20, please tell me:

Is there really any difference between these two verses? I don't believe so.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death

Ezekiel 18:20The one who sins is the one who will die.

lol so sad. How you miss what's being said.

The verse indicates that the person who is the sinner its upon him, if he dies in that state no one else will be held accountable for it but himself the curse and all is upon him and not others. Kind of illutrating original sin to be false.

Atheist new to old anti christian what? Interesting MOS. It's amusing how you try in different ways to discredit me for ever being a Christian by saying Catholics are not really Christians, then you didn't expect to find out I was also a member of united church of canada which is the protestant church. So now you're classifying me with atheists. Good for you.

I quoted the bible on verses which speak about God forgiving people without any sacrifice or people being killed.

Then how about you guys throw out all the verses that don't go with your views? Besides the bible is an accumulation of books, letters and different versions include or exclude certain books (protestant bible vs catholic bible vs even ethiopian bible), then there's the apocrypha. It's not one narrative from the same author. Hence the divirgences.

It seems you love to copy paste the exact same verses both of you all the time over and over again as if that suddenly makes it legitimate. And the few select verses is what you will ever ever focus on. I notice this pattern with all Christians who try to defend these specific doctrines using elusive or specific verses but totally ignoring all the other stories, events, verses which oppose these beliefs.

Or you will conjure up totally magical explanations for the verses that contradict your views. For example Jesus not knowing things and saying only God knows them, or Jesus being powerless and all power stemming from God alone, etc... as.. oh God was trying to be humble or God was trying to act in his human state, or God gave up his powers while in his human state, etc... Your OWN conjectures and explanations NOT divine at all.

Come on now... it's just silly. You're not out to find or speak the truth, you're out to justify yourselves and what you believe. I took the time to seek the truth out, that's why I said I strongly believed in God it did not falter my faith, but instead strengthened it, but instead of accepting man made lies, I kept searching. I am well aware of all these verses that's why over and over again I bring you the verses you DON'T bring to the discussion as they are from the bible and speak a different belief than what you believe.

Likewise with calling Jesus God. You DESPERATELY post a few skewed alluring verses. YET... we will find HUNDREDS of explicit verses which showcase Jesus being just a prophet, just a messenger, just a human being who is frail and dependant. Instead you focus hundreds of pages of threads on those few ellusive verses and copy paste them, bold them, yet all the other verses.. oh it's just there. It 'speaks' about "god's" human state, the Jesus that is very human, very god all in one.

Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.

So Jesus cried to be saved from death!

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.

You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.

Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:

1. No one has to die for God to forgive2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.

And we can go on.

The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same

I didn't become a Muslim from reading a few cliche lines from the bible. I became Muslim by reading the whole bible. That's how truth is ascertained, not by a few selective verses like you do. You delibereately ignore the verses I post as they change what you're trying to paint and put forward.

Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.

So Jesus cried to be saved from death!

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.

You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.

Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:

1. No one has to die for God to forgive2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.

And we can go on.

The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same

Shut the fuck up, Ahmed, you brazen terrorist pig. I know your posts are pure comedy gold but I'm afraid you'll waste MOS's precious time if he actually bothers responding to your ignorant infantile ramblings. He's speaking the truth Ahmed but you're too stupid and deluded to grasp what he's saying so you continue to waste his time and energy by posting idiotic and irrelevant rubbish and so on and on the cycle goes of Christians speaking truth and Muslims failing to understand and then responding with garbage.

Shut the fuck up, Ahmed, you brazen terrorist pig. I know your posts are pure comedy gold but I'm afraid you'll waste MOS's precious time if he actually bothers responding to your ignorant infantile ramblings. He's speaking the truth Ahmed but you're too stupid and deluded to grasp what he's saying so you continue to waste his time and energy by posting idiotic and irrelevant rubbish and so on and on the cycle goes of Christians speaking truth and Muslims failing to understand and then responding with garbage.

why, I do believe there are tangles of pubic hair caught between your teeth, Mr Harridan.

Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.

So Jesus cried to be saved from death!

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.

You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.

Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:

1. No one has to die for God to forgive2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.

And we can go on.

The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same

I didn't become a Muslim from reading a few cliche lines from the bible. I became Muslim by reading the whole bible. That's how truth is ascertained, not by a few selective verses like you do. You delibereately ignore the verses I post as they change what you're trying to paint and put forward.

You know who's ever gimmick you are, you really are not doing christians a good favour by representing yourself with a filthy and hypocrite mouth as you hold. You're raging in every thread at everyone. These are not the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him.

Look David praying for forgiveness and God hearing his prayer and forgiving him.

Imagine that, no one was killed or sacrificed or suicided for it.

1 Samuel 20:6If your father misses me at all, tell him, ‘David earnestly asked my permission to hurry to Bethlehem, his hometown, because an annual sacrifice is being made there for his whole clan.’

2 Samuel 6:17They brought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the Lord.

2 Samuel 24:25David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then the Lord answered his prayer in behalf of the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped.

Job 1:5When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.

Job 42:8So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”

Exodus 29:36Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement. Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it.

Exodus 30:10Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the Lord.”

Leviticus 1:4You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you.

Leviticus 4:20and do with this bull just as he did with the bull for the sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for the community, and they will be forgiven.

Leviticus 9:7Moses said to Aaron, “Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the Lord has commanded.”

Leviticus 16:11“Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering.

Leviticus 16:30because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.

Leviticus 16:34“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”And it was done, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Leviticus 17:11For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

Leviticus 19:22With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

Numbers 29:11Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the sin offering for atonement and the regular burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings.

Hebrews 9:22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

John 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Good for you so they used to do sacrifices. They also were forgiven without sacrifices. Clever how you end with the NT passages including Paul's letters.

Why do you do this? Do you not fear God? When the truth is given to you, why do you ignore it or avoid it and persist?

I posted the other verses which illustrate exactly the opposite, yet somehow they are just conveniently ignored so you can persist in your doctrines.

Do you know why the Jews were asked so many things? Because they were haughty. God was merciful to them, but they were haughty so God made things difficult for them so they would prove their faith. This is primarily why through Moses they were given so many rulings.

Even with a messenger of God amongst them they earnestly went back to idol worship even Moses being strengthened by Aron his brother. They disobeyed. They wanted to do all sorts of evil. DESPITE all the signs given to them! Even when in slavery and how they were taken out of the grips of the pharaos.

Over and over again they DISOBEYED God's orders and commandments of all sorts. Over and over God's wrath is upon them and that is the narrative of the old testament over and over again.

You know who's ever gimmick you are, you really are not doing christians a good favour by representing yourself with a filthy and hypocrite mouth as you hold. You're raging in every thread at everyone. These are not the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him.

You shut up, you Muslim troll. What can a Satanist like you possibly know about Jesus? Just because you skimmed through the Bible a few times doesn't mean you understand Jesus. Jesus is very angry at sin and so He destroys the evildoers like you, that's the real Jesus, praise be to Him. The Lord and the God Jesus doesn't stand evil at all.

You shut up, you Muslim troll. What can a Satanist like you possibly know about Jesus? Just because you skimmed through the Bible a few times doesn't mean you understand Jesus. Jesus is very angry at sin and so He destroys the evildoers like you, that's the real Jesus, praise be to Him. The Lord and the God Jesus doesn't stand evil at all.

I didn't skim through the bible, I studied the bible, went to sunday school, went to and graduated from a christian school, served at my church, etc...

Man... it pains my eyes to even listen to how you speak. It's embarassing, it's disgusting. Regardless of you being a troll and a fake account, you're misrepresenting Christians everywhere with the filthy manners you speak in.

The bible speaks left and right about filthy speech... yet here you are... a so called christian. I feel sorry for you.

You shut up, you Muslim troll. What can a Satanist like you possibly know about Jesus? Just because you skimmed through the Bible a few times doesn't mean you understand Jesus. Jesus is very angry at sin and so He destroys the evildoers like you, that's the real Jesus, praise be to Him. The Lord and the God Jesus doesn't stand evil at all.

Jon, please stop insulting a_ahmed! We are trying to have a discussion here. Let's be kind to our Muslim friends.

And the reason for those sacrifices and requirements was specifically for? In retribution to the way the Jews were behaving despite having a messenger of God in front of them, despite being given so many signs, despite being saved from pharaoh by God, etc... etc... I thought you read the bible? This is the whole narrative of the old testament, how haughty the jews were, and the many things asked of them to prove htemselves.

Mind you, Jews are not the only people of the world. God sent messengers and prophets before them and after them. This was their special case. AND STILL as I illustrated in the verses I copied, God forgave them WITHOUT sacrifices as well.

You're just shooting air man. Give it up. God does not need human sacrifices, especially innocent human sacrifices that's just plain crazy. Why sacrifice an innoscent human life for other sinners? It makes no sense at all in plain common sense speak even in human level of justice it does not fly.

In Islam we are thought God does not need ANYTHING from us not even our worship absolutely not, but we need HIM! Anything we do is out of our own accord of proving our faith in obeying Him.

In Islam we are thought of the mercy and forgiveness of God which is far greater than the cruelty of innocent human sacrifice. Islam is for all mankind not for a special race.

Mind you, Jews are not the only people of the world. God sent messengers and prophets before them and after them. This was their special case. AND STILL as I illustrated in the verses I copied, God forgave them WITHOUT sacrifices as well.

Okay if you want to keep believing what you believe and ignoring the verses that I posted from the bible

And why did Jesus then cry to God to save him from death? And pray to God over and over again. Etc... etc... aah... I wish God would guide you and open your eyes and your heart to the truth and wash away with this pride and arrogance..

In Islam we learn of the mercy and compassion of God who does not need to have human sacrifices human beings to forgive others. I accept this as God is just and not cruel.

When someone becomes a Muslim their rap sheet is cleaned. They start like a baby. Sinless.

When we enter this world we are sinless (this is the teaching of islam unlike christianity with original sin) however we acrue sins over time. When you become a Muslim though, all those sins are wiped clean and you start like a new born.

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Lastly, I will turn the tables on you and ask you, if Jesus asked God to save him from death, then why did God say no? Then why did Jesus still died for our sins?

Do you even listen to yourself and the ironies you speak? You admit that Jesus cried to be saved from death (as according to the bible). You admit he cried and was saved (as we believe) although you say he was not. So you have a paradox yet again. You show God as cruel and merciless if we go after your story or God is merciful if go by Islam's story.

Do you even listen to yourself and the ironies you speak? You admit that Jesus cried to be saved from death (as according to the bible). You admit he cried and was saved (as we believe) although you say he was not. So you have a paradox yet again. You show God as cruel and merciless if we go after your story or God is merciful if go by Islam's story.

I believe it because it was Jesus who said that God sent him to die for our sins.

I did not admit that Jesus "cried to God to be saved from death." You said that. I asked: If he really did, then why did God say no?

In other words, if there was another way to be saved from our sins, then why did Jesus die for our sins?

John 10:17-1817 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.

Hebrew 5:7 he (Jesus) prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

Only God guides, we are but delivering the message.

Have a nice day. Jesus was a servant of God who prayed and worshipped God.

a_ahmed??

Are you quoting Paul's letters to me?

I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul. So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.

Anyway, here is the complete passage:

Hebrews 5:1-101 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

6 And he says in another place,

“You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

More...

Hebrews 7:24-2524 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Hebrews 9:27-2827 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.