Still up in the air as far as I can gather. Really, I think they want to build kliper, but the Russians wanted an arrangement like: Give us the euros, we'll build the spaceship, and the Europeans wanted some of those spaceship building jobs to go to their member states. A thousand jobs in France, a thousand jobs in Germany... Which is how we do it with the Shuttle here in the States. It may not necessarily make sense from an engineering point of view, but from a political standpoint it's beautiful. If you create enough jobs in the districts of enough powerful politicians, you will have made your program that much more difficult to cancel. Don't believe me? Look at the Shuttle. Been flying on and off for 24 years, mostly on, even though it disintegrates about once in fifty flights.

I'm sure the Russians are having a real heck of a time grappling with this Democratic line of thinking, but hopefully through working with the Europeans, some of these ideas will rub off on them.

ESA are already investing heavily in Soyuz I cant say I blame them for being cautious in supporting another Russian program.

I'm all for ESA being involved with Kliper but it needs to get something more than a hole in its bank balance out of the project. If its only contribution is money it might as well just buy flights on Soyuz and future Kliper craft. It would be politically difficult to send more money to Russia without some kind of return in knowledge, manufacturing or jobs.

I read a while back that the Russians wanted ESA to contribute some of the major components, like the avionics which ESA had already developed for their ill fated Hermes craft. Such things would probably be produced in Europe so their would be some jobs but perhaps not enough to justify their involvement. Here's an article from August which appeared to suggest that Russia was looking for more than money, I guess things have changed.

Yes it would. Again if the article is correct then it's a bit of a pity that the Klipper has bitten the dust and they're continuing down the capsule route. Can't say I didn't expect it given the funding constraints and cost of developing new vehicles.

ESA obviously doesn't want to fund a Russian vehicle operating in Russia which it will have very little control over, no surprise there. Kliper is not necessarily dead though as the Russians might still develop it on their own or with the help of JAXA, they are pretty keen to get income from more tourists visiting the ISS.

Their involvement with the Chinese didn't stop them operating Soyuz so this new vehicle shouldn't impact Kliper and might actually give them another income stream. I would guess that ESA would pay for Russian assistance rather than Russia paying to be a partner, afterall why would they want to develop a "Soyuz-like" capsule when they have the original?

_________________A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Under www.marssociety.de there is ashort remark today that the ESA Council of Ministers has decided against Kliper because of the Kliper-project including too much risks. That's said officialy according to the article.

Why not save a step and go to a big CEV like Capsule atop Ariuane 5 and have an all European capsule? Perhaps one that could also be launched by Zenit.

As much as it pains me to say this--I think there should be some talk about phasing R-7 out over the next couple of decades. It is simply too small for the new mega-bus com-sats. Zenit can be made into a super-EELV of sorts--with two other cores used as strap-ons to exceed even Delta IV and Angara.

In between the ESA-ROSKOSMOS-JAXA-collaboration seems to be much closer to becoming reality. The article "ESA, Russia to Collaborate on New Spacecraft Design" ( www.space.com/news/060623_clipper_esa.html ) says that

Quote:

European Space Agency (ESA) governments agreed June 22 to participate in a two-year program with Russia, and probably Japan as well, to explore crew-transport vehicle designs for missions to the international space station, the Moon and elsewhere.

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More yet - ESA has be solicited by the Russians and asked and they will participate in the development of the capsule and ESA will have authority over a nmission critical system.

The article also mentions that

Quote:

European government officials have said they will not embark on a solo development effort. They have approached NASA about joining the U.S. Crew Exploration Vehicle program but have been rebuffed by the current U.S. government policy of making the vehicle off limits to non-U.S. participants.

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So a joint development and a joint vehicle has become much more likely now - and it truns out that the US and NASA have done a major mistake and initiated the birth of a severe competitor consisting of three ghovernmental agencies, at least one important US-partner and at least one important partner in space missions. And these two are partnering up with the fromer rival of NASA and the US.

In between there also is an article about it under www.marssociety.de saying that the service and the hab module might be based on the european ISS-component Columbus and the ATV - this is an anynomous quote by the article. It would mean that european technology goes into the vehicle and the european industry is involved.

ATV might mean an option to launch via Ariane - but it can't land which menas involvement of russian Soyuz-technology.

The Mars Society article say that the ACTS called vehicle might launch in 2014 earliest.

May be that there will be a decision about the design of a joint european-russion vehicle soon. A capsule is preferred - but it should be capable of going to the Moon also. One alternative is a lifting body.

To get all the components required for a landing into space two or merely three launches of an Ariane 5 or an Angara would be needed.

Cooperation with Russia is said to be the only option and chance to get an european vehicle - but the cooperation is endangered politically.

Under www.marssociety.de there is an article today saying that Anatoli Perminow, director of ROSKOSMOS, has informed the public that he and Jean Jacques Dordain, director of ESA jointly have decided to develop and construct a joint space vehicle. At the ILA they will talk abou details.

The Russians will develop and construct the rocket capable of launching a payload of 20 tons. The capsule would be developed and constructed by Energija which also will be responsible.

Western Europe would develop and construct the service module and the engine/drive.

The german section of the Mars Society is astonished about it, because a conference of the Ministers' Council is required previously which will take place in autumn earliest. They are wondering if there is a particular coup or if the director of ESA has acted beyond his competence.