Generally speaking, in my experiences, wing chun does not produce tough guys out of nothing. You can have the best technique in the world, but if you are not tough, and only training hard can make you tough, you have a really good chance of getting your ass kicked.
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training hard doesn't make you tough, getting your ass kicked does.

Last edited by It is Fake; 8/09/2007 11:03am at .
Reason: Fixed quote tags

So if we agree that real fighting is "MMA" or "sanda" looking stuff, what components of that are actually in the _un? Which parts of the _un has puttting your hands up, tucking in your chin in and throwing jabs and combos?

Also these guys that are training "wing chun" for MMA are actually training in, and using the delivery systems of MMA, not wing chun.

Watch Alan Orr's video about how he teaches some Wing Chun body mechanics & posture stuff for power generation.

Now, you might watch it and think it isn't very good, but I don't think it's true that they've just abandoned the chun.

Doing live training knocks frills and 'dead wood' off a style, but you can still have different approaches to a particular combat sport. As I mentioned before, the Chun at core is about close range striking, low kicks, elbows etc..

I don't agree that doing a particular combat sport necessarily homogenises what people do completely. We still see different approaches and personal styles at the top of MMA.

I see your point, but the current _un curriculum isn't composed of "mma" looking stuff. It's composed of forms, odd-looking drills and an entire defensive system that's too slow and inefficient to actually work. If we throw that out, what are we left with? Boxing with a tendency for rapid fire punches? If that's true, then it still seems to be that the _un is redundant, because you could just box and say "I think I'll focus on being aggressive and pressing the attacks."

Not sure how rapidlly punching and kicking the groin is "too slow", but the training time can be quit long so it is somewhat "inefficient". It may be "odd-looking", but the Man/Wu guard has to be ready not only for cover against puches but also low enough to rapple and prevent low take downs. Boxing as a sport neglects the need for rapid kicking or even defending takedowns, etc..so why would I attempt to use it as a base to build from? any theory of power from Boxing would have no value to me if I need to be developed in other arts. It must all have the same base. Even if I did three arts live Boxing, Muay Tai, and BJJ, do I have a base to connect them? Was it presented in a way that builds from a core to add onto.

_un builds a base. You can add to it what you want. The _un is based on teachers bringing up students and pasing on the developement level. As SP began with, it takes hard work with hard men to become a fighter. Chun needs more people willing to do the free hitting drills.

(note:yes I said rapple, I haven't earned a G yet:new_smile )

Originally Posted by Guizzy

The relative importance of what makes the differences between styles past that is not that much different than what makes the difference between two boxing gyms; stylistic and strategic differences for high level fighting.

But unfortunately, somewhere along the line, many kung fu styles started putting the emphasis on these stylistic differences, often forgetting how they are only a small part of the actual fighting use. And that much more time should be used drilling the basic punching and kicking than the very specific stuff.

Does it look like kickboxing? Well, when trained properly, it looks just as much as kickboxing as Muay Thai does.

nice post.

Originally Posted by Poo-Jitsu

I would imagine that small details like leaving your hands at the chest level would change, but overall the concepts could remain the same - closing the distance quickly and relying on infighting, staying in a low stance, squared to your opponent, not kicking high and vertical fist with little or no hooks, shuffling steps, etc. - those types of things define the chun - I think the weirdness was added over time as people stopped pressure testing their art..

True about pressure testing. and the lowering of the hands, but the chun has plenty of hooking and all that, its just called 'elbows'. Lifting punch can be rotated into cross hooks, ect. An overhead stab with a sword is the same theory set as a cross,. Not sure about the weirdness, that might have been there all along, it was a theater troop living on a boat traveling circus thingy.

"If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event

I think we might all be in violent agreement here. A delivery system is a methodology to develop attributes and skills for a particular endeavor. An MMA delivery system develops MMA fighters, a wrestling delivery system develops wrestlers, a chess delivery systems develops chess players and so on. I think the issue isnít that the chun doesnít have a delivery system. It does, in many(most?) schools this delivery system is not geared to developing fighters, it is geared to developing chi sao players, and it does this very well. The problem is too many chi sao players consider themselves to be fighters and d34dly on the str33t, a myth propagated by their sifus and schools.

Carlson Gracie seemed to have some nice things to Say about the Chun......

I've posted the Video in the Clips Forum.

I'm one who believes there are chunners out there who can fight. I know of at least one (one which I'm not going to invite at all to this site because he's not the type interested in e-wars and the common dickery that usually exists here.) I think Omega has said he has found value in some of the chun. And there is plenty of people here with past experience in chun who can talk with some authority as well as people who are honest in working their chun.

The problem is that you have a myriad of chuns out there, most of them shitty. And even worse, we get people who claim to do teh r34l chun, and who on top of that make lies and claims to bolster their POV, but who are not willing to back it up (like claiming to have a blue belt in BJJ, for example... yes, this goes to you Bear1980)

The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris

The problem is that you have a myriad of chuns out there, most of them shitty. And even worse, we get people who claim to do teh r34l chun, and who on top of that make lies and claims to bolster their POV, but who are not willing to back it up (like claiming to have a blue belt in BJJ, for example... yes, this goes to you Bear1980)

No, the problem is a majority of chunners don't listen to this part of a conversation.

Many of us believe some chunners can fight (-virus) yet the large majority want to affiliate themselves with the non-fighters.

Alan Orr isn't pure WC. This is something I have heard from other chunners. WTF is Pure Chun? I've said it on many threads use your chun. If you knock someone out with chun cool. If you submit someone on the ground with a triangle don't tell me it is the chun.

Problem is a high percentage of chunners have argued this point. It is what I've said about DTT being in a rut. Instead of trying to force everything into being chun say yeah this came from boxing.

Many of you chunners get blasted on principle. I hassle DTT because the chun has fucking everything under the sun. RNC yes. Leglocks Yes. Hooks Yes. Jabs Yes. Uppercuts Yes.
Clinch Yes.

I do Hsing-I yes we have some weird ****. Yet, you rarely hear of Hsing-I striker trying to say yes, we do ground fighting.