[url]http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html[/url]
I used to think some of you on this board were salvageable. After yesterday, I learned a hard lesson: That I've met leftist environmental wackos who have a better idea of what freedom and liberty mean. Most of you on this board are just a bunch of adolescents who are pawns of the state--"useful idiots" I believe is the term.
If OKC wasn't enough of a wake up call for you, maybe when ar15.com gets shut down by the FBI for "seditious acts" you will begin to understand the reality of what is taking place.
Also, for those of you who are soldiers, I hope you fully realize that your government cares nothing for your life. It will use you up and throw you away when finished. You'd be better off joining a militia and defending the 50 states in that manner. At least then you will not be aligned with the guilty and their agenda for Amerika.

When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
September 12, 2001
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth – that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.
When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was destroyed over Scotland, and our government is convinced it was Libyans who did it.
When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment – that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.
How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs they held.
But what about the American presidents who order bombings of innocent people – while the presidents remain completely insulated from any danger? What would you call their acts?
When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?
Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have happened in the first place.
When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our freedoms in the name of freedom?
What to Do
What should be done?
First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the Swiss mind their own business.
Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.
Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger against America.
Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and un-American – that this is not a time to question our country or our leaders.
When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no reason to be patriotic?

Hmm [:\]
Also, for those of you who are soldiers, I hope you fully realize that your government cares nothing for your life. It will use you up and throw you away when finished. You'd be better off joining a militia and defending the 50 states in that manner. At least then you will not be aligned with the guilty and their agenda for Amerika.
[red]Sounds Anti Amarican to me? Your no better then the Palestins yesterday.[/red]

I'd have a lot more respect for Mr.Browne if he and his Presidential campaign were not under investigation for serious campaign funding and employment problems by the Libertarian Party.
Please refer to the last few issues of Liberty magazine for exhaustive details.
While I support many of the LP's goals, Browne has lost credibility with me. [url]www.libertysoft.com/liberty/[/url]

"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army

I gotta admit I am SOOOO fucking sick of the tinfoil-beanie-wearing conspiracy morons harping their anti-government stupidity in the wake of this attack.
This really is the time you find out who your enemies are and who your allies are. You are not Americans, you are not my allies and as far as I am concerned, you can go to hell.

The first part of your life, you worry about what people think about you;

The middle part of your life, you don't care what people think about you;

The last part of your life, you realize they weren't even thinking about you at all.

Harry Browne has the unique ability to take a simple statement of truth and somehow manage to twist it into a bald-faced lie!
He starts with the idea that our foreign policy is sometimes messed up and ends with the idea that we deserved everything we got yesterday, and may deserve even more!

President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq.

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From what I understand only military targets are being hit! What innocent people are being deliberately targeted in Iraq? If any are, you know its a mistake, don't you, I mean the US is certainly trying desperately NOT to hit civilians, right?
But Mr. Browne thinks we're evil in continuing the air war against Iraq.
Got to Hell, Mr. Browne, I'm sorry I ever voted for your limp-wristed ass!

When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never teaches anything but resentment – that it only inspires the recipient to greater acts of defiance.

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Gee, I didn't know that Mr. Browne was such a devout Christian! That sure sounds like 'turn the other cheek' to me. How about to you?
I suppose we shouldn't have taught Nazi Germany of Imperial Japan any lessons, either?
Eric The(ThisIsTheLibertarianParty?)Hun[>]:)]

The article ny the Ornery American took a long and circuitous route to get there, but it finally arrived at a destination I can support:

In other words, when we're not at war, let's try not to kill people -- not even foreigners, because we ordinary citizens pay for it in the long run. And when we are at war, let's fight with all our strength until we crush our enemies and all those who support and harbor them, so that, at war's end, we can have some hope of peace.

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Sounds reasonable to me, but it could have been said a lot better, and a lot of his rhetoric was just plain wrong!
Eric The(Skittish)Hun[>]:)]

WTF?
Harry Browne has lost all credibility with me. What the f#@K? Are we suppose to crawl into a cave?
Lately I have felt drawn to the Libertarian Party but it seems to me Mr. Browne is a pot-smoking hippie pacifist that has no intrest in the spread and protection of Liberty.

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
You people only see what you want to see and that is ok with me.

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You know what, you are right.
[b]"Good job Mr. Terrorists for teaching us a lesson!!! THANKS A BUNCH!! MR. BROWNE TOLD US SO, BUT WE CAN'T LEARN!! Oh DARN! Guess I should TOKE MY BONG and Vote LIBERTARIAN! Guess we start over again, Huh! What a sad story , OH WELL."[/b]
Your statement only applies to you.

I am outraged at what happened yesterday and I consider it an act of war. However, there have been several people for the past 4 or 5 years that have said it would be just a matter of time before something like this happened.
One of the reasons that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor was due to our mingling in their affairs. Quite a bit of documentation has come out since Pearl Harbor that sheds light on the possibility FDR new the attack was coming and let it happen so that it would rally Americans to support a Declaration of War. Ever wonder why we didn't put Japan as the priority when they were the ones that attacked us, but went for Germany first?
Remember, the attacks yesterday were outrageous and I am pissed at the people that carried them out, yet I do lay some blame at the feet of our own gov't.
One thing for sure, this incident will lead to the loss of more of our freedoms. You may not believe it now, but in time you'll see it. It hurts to hear the truth.
Call me un-American if you wish, I know where my heart is. Today, going to an appointment I saw a lady putting a bunch of small American flags in the ground at an intersection. She was having trouble pushing the sticks the flags were on into the ground. When I saw this tears welled up in my eyes and I let some slip out. I pulled over, got myself together, hopped out and got a hammer out of the back of the van and went over and helped her put the flags in the ground.
Then I come here and read this post and some of the response and cut a few more tears lose again.
Dear God this hurts...

I may not agree with this guy Harry Browne but if you take the time to read a history book or two you begin to understand that nothing is a conspiracy. It doesn't have to be because people in general have their head in the sand. Meyer Rothschild, more than 150 years ago, laid out how to control a government and even bragged how he was able to create wars and control the outcome.
When I was a younger man you were laughed at if you talked about the existence of the Trilateral
Commission but now they talk about themselve in the open and have the audacity to admit their plan is a One World Government.
Clearly we hear only what we want to hear and disregard the rest.
Please wake up before it is too late.

Maybe someone should re-read George Washington's farewell address. We have reaped what we have sown. I, for one, have waiting for the day they would come after us. It has arrived.
I believe we should have been, and should in the future be, neutral in all affairs of the world. I haven't seen Switzerland being attacked recently.

Originally Posted By Torf:
Bashing America now is in extremely bad taste. I pity your lack of loyalty to the greatest nation on earth.
No, it doesn't have to be perfect to get my support.
Patriot 'till I die.

Originally Posted By CassidyGT:
Maybe someone should re-read George Washington's farewell address. We have reaped what we have sown. I, for one, have waiting for the day they would come after us. It has arrived.
I believe we should have been, and should in the future be, neutral in all affairs of the world. I haven't seen Switzerland being attacked recently.

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Totally unrealistic view. If we isolate ourselves from the world and cease to be a superpower, that doesn't mean there will be no superpowers, it just means WE won't be one anymore. Someone else will fill that power vacuum, and we won't like what happens to the world. We will wind up being strangled and eventually we would balkanize and be taken over.
We don't live in the 19th Century anymore, and George Washington was not a fortune teller.

The first part of your life, you worry about what people think about you;

The middle part of your life, you don't care what people think about you;

The last part of your life, you realize they weren't even thinking about you at all.

I guess everything that doesn't include "kill ragheads" is just flying right over your head.
The point of the article is WHY do they hate the U.S. so much in the first place? They didn't just wake up one morning and say "Gee, lets go kill Americans." If this can be discovered then maybe the U.S. could avoid repeating such failed policy and averting further terrorist attacks.
Someday when you grow up, maybe then you will understand.

What the hell do YOU care what we want to do, imb? None of us are in a position of power to do anything, so why can't you let us vent a bit without trying to agrandize yourself into the position of "the reasonable man?"

The first part of your life, you worry about what people think about you;

The middle part of your life, you don't care what people think about you;

The last part of your life, you realize they weren't even thinking about you at all.

Originally Posted By TampaDave:
oh for pete's sake. we didn't attack ourselves. we have done nothing to deserve this. read the editorial by the canadian newspaper posted elsewhere on this forum.

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Here you go:
America: The Good Neighbor
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave others billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by Tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war- mongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why
don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at The lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
of those."
Stand proud, America!"

I just got this from a Libertarian friend of mine. I think his e-mail is the stance that all Libertarians should take and although I agree with and like Harry Browne, I find the timing of this article in poor timing and taste.
Itilacs are my comment.
[b]I would like to make some comments. I imagine they'll be unpopular.
This is NOT the time to say "I told you so." This is a time to mourn
the loss of American civilian lives and to support our great country
rather than be critical of it. There will be a lot of time later for
your "I told you so" comments. That goes for the LP press as well.
I thought the LP press release yesterday was a good one. [i](isn't refering to Browne's article here)[/i] I am afraid
of what they may send out today so soon after the disaster.
Yesterday's tragedy should bring home to you that we don't live in an
isolated world. This was an act of war. It was all well and good to
say we should stay out of the affairs of other nations before this act
of war. During peacetime this is an appropriate stance. We are no longer
in peactime. Our response shouldn't be to give in to terrorism and do
exactly what the terrorists want which is to abandon our friends in the
middle east. Our response should be to find terrorists and eliminate
their potential of causing destruction to the best of our ability. Then
to work with nations around the world to make sure terrorists are not
allowed to build up their potential for causing destruction again. Once
we've struck a blow against terrorists around the world then it would
be appropriate to go back to the position that we should worry about
our interests and stay out of other countries affairs. Then it would
be appropriate to say "I told you so." But not now.
This is all I have to say on this issue. Please remember to give blood
and if you can afford to please make a donation to the American Red Cross.
Thank you.
Mike[/b]

oooohh! There's some actual dialog going on in this thread!
Seriously, as sad and tragic as the past couple of days have been for most of us, this is only the beginning. It will not compare to the chemical and biological threats that are coming. I wish I had confidence in our govenment's ability to be able to stop it before it's carried out, but let's get real here. If they can't stop the hijacking of 4 airliners all at the same time, you are kidding yourselves if you think the powers can stop chemical and biological threats.
In the past when the USSR was the biggest thread we somehow managed to reach a compromise or should I say more of a standoff. Much of it was done through nuclear/arms buildup, dialog, summits, treaties etc. and staying out of their business. Like him or not, this guy (Brown) does have some good points. Unfortunately for us, they are not profitable.

I believe we should have been, and should in the future be, neutral in all affairs of the world. I haven't seen Switzerland being attacked recently.

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I can't believe the naivety of this statement. I guess you would have rather the greatest generation watch the Axis slowly grind the rest of the world under their boot.
Unlike Switzerland, Americans stood up for what was right. Americans made the sacrifices. Americans sent a message to the tyrants and terrorist of the world that we will stand up for the liberties of all.
There is no doubt about it. The reason that democracy is flourishing in the world is because of America. We support, nurture and make it possible for people to empower themselves to a fault.
Every recent president before Clinton was operating in a completely different Cold War world where the normal rules didn't apply, but make no mistake, the cold war was a war. If not for NATO and our allies, Stalin would have ground Europe under his boot.
We now have a new enemy to the liberty and freedom and they are Islamic fundamentalist. Is this generation up to the task or will we allow the tyrants of the world to have their way?

Hey Harry, ever heard of Neville Chamberland? Yeah the Brit. who believed that if Hitler got Austria and Chechoslovakia(?) to keep the *peace*.
The world is an evil place. Get a clue you gutless bastard!
Spambo