I believe once you fully grasp the depth and teaching of the Orthodox faith, AA will mean nothing.

Are you saying alcoholism is a spiritual matter or AA is just unnecessary if you follow the faith of the Orthodox Church? Or both?

Alcoholism is a spiritual matter. After the initial physical matters are resolved, (the detox and the acceptance that the disease of alcoholism causes an allergic reaction and thus the alcoholic may never again drink safely) AA is little more than romper room Orthodoxy.

I believe once you fully grasp the depth and teaching of the Orthodox faith, AA will mean nothing.

Are you saying alcoholism is a spiritual matter or AA is just unnecessary if you follow the faith of the Orthodox Church? Or both?

Alcoholism is a spiritual matter. After the initial physical matters are resolved, (the detox and the acceptance that the disease of alcoholism causes an allergic reaction and thus the alcoholic may never again drink safely) AA is little more than romper room Orthodoxy.

Would it be possible to set up a local AA chapter in your Orthodox parish?I have heard of some Greek Orthodox parishioners doing this as alcoholism was rampant in one particular parish and the Greeks did not want to openly testify outside of their parish and scandalize everyone. From what I was told, it was successful, and the Greek ladies who were alcoholics felt much more comfortable.

Logged

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

I believe once you fully grasp the depth and teaching of the Orthodox faith, AA will mean nothing.

Are you saying alcoholism is a spiritual matter or AA is just unnecessary if you follow the faith of the Orthodox Church? Or both?

Alcoholism is a spiritual matter. After the initial physical matters are resolved, (the detox and the acceptance that the disease of alcoholism causes an allergic reaction and thus the alcoholic may never again drink safely) AA is little more than romper room Orthodoxy.

Would it be possible to set up a local AA chapter in your Orthodox parish?I have heard of some Greek Orthodox parishioners doing this as alcoholism was rampant in one particular parish and the Greeks did not want to openly testify outside of their parish and scandalize everyone. From what I was told, it was successful, and the Greek ladies who were alcoholics felt much more comfortable.

That would be a bit difficult with the distance I would need to travel. There's a bit more than just hanging out a shingle and opening business. But if/when the time comes I will step up and get it done.

Having AA at the parish usually goes the other way. Many people are deathly worried that someone will see them at the AA meeting so often they will go somewhere they won't likely see anyone they know.

It is helpful however for those members of AA that have drifted away from Church or the heartbreakingly large number of people I run into that have never even been in a church at all(beyond funerals/weddings). It lets them check it out on their own terms.

Maybe the reason they are so vehemently against your association with the AA is the fact that it makes some of them feel guilty or uncomfortable because they are not doing anything about their own alcoholism--an issue which is becoming epidemic in ethnic Orthodox Churches. In this case, I would wipe the dust off my feet if I were you and switch jurisdictions, or, perhaps write a letter to your Bishop about this issue since there definitely could be something wrong going on here at your Church.

The pork loin went over so well that when a couple at the parish got married they had me handle the food for their wedding. Roughly 80 pounds of pork (loin and pulled) was served along with 40 pounds of beef.

I have been attending Catechumen classes and meeting with the Priest every other week. Today he gave me December 15th for a Baptism date.

I was upfront and honest. I am a member of alcoholics anonymous. I was firm when I said that I would continue helping drunks sober up and I would not leave my drunks behind.

Last Tuesday the priest said in the catechumen class that he doubted my dedication to the church. This hurt and infuriated me as I have thrown myself into the church, attending church three times a week, volunteering for menial jobs, setting aside AA commitments, helping others as I can. The truth came out in a phone call tonight when I expressed my hurt and bewilderment at being accused of not being committed to the church. The truth came out that I have been lied to for a year and a half and the obstacle to my becoming Orthodox in this church is my continued involvement in AA.

I was a homeless skid row drunk when AA reached out and helped me become human. Every thing I am and every thing I have, including my relationship with God I owe to alcoholics anonymous. I will not leave my drunks behind.

ps. Don't lie to an alcoholic. We're better at it that you are.

just to be clear, I don't hold this against the Orthodox church as this happened at a baptist church too.

Darn-it I cant remember the name of the priest out in Los Angeles who has a google blog on AA/Orthodoxy - but you should look for that if you dont already know about it.In one of his last blogs he said something that surprised me though Ive noticed it seems true.He said that most priests are not very spiritually advanced.Like theyre just simple sinners like you and me and its not a requirement to be real enlightened for them to do their job.My first priest/spiritual father seemed to fit this description and offended me too ( I have a huge pet-peeve for people - especially Orthodox Christians - who have the worldiness in their mentality of social stigmas.In other words people who misunderstand sinners who's sins manifest as drug addictions and value them by worldy stigmatized standards [or something like that].So many Orthodox though believe AA is a God-send....Im sorry that happened to you.Anyways here what I just so happened to have written today on http://www.deathtotheworld.com on this subject: "Yeah Fr. Meletios Weber who alot of people have recently realized is way too liberal wrote a good book but this doesnt back up my argument(for a loss of a better word) of course.He wrote this book "12 Steps of Transformation" - Its an AA book for Orthodox Christians basicly.He gives a translation of that step (26,section 111)(this is totally gonna confirm LeFeu's convictions) and explains how it relates to an AA meeting....Heres a mysterious thing.In AA everyone knows or learns that God speaks through people.And it seems to me that that is just a fact of life.Now of course you dont want to just listen to what anyone says and take it as if its God speaking but at the same time I believe God can tell you something you need to hear from a drunk in the gutter.But in AA and what Fr. Meletios Weber explains is more referring to in an AA or church group or from a sponsor or spiritual adviser....Its weird how AA tends to be Orthodox-approved amongst alot of Orthodoc Christians and believed to be God-given even though by legalistic standards it can seem utterly heretical(at best.) This is why I stopped going to AA though.A while back I seemed ( I use the words "seem" or "seemed" or "seemingly" alot because I know I should not trust my own thinking yet feel a need to communicate this kinda stuff)..Anyway a while back I seemed to have realized that the philosophys that go hand in hand with AA are like those expressed by Eckhart Tolle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle ) and Emmet Fox with his "New Thought Christianity"( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox ). It seems to me that these two guys might just be - much like Lao Tzu - people who have become as enlightened as a soul can get on a persons own without the Orthodox Church,etc.(these people pray and meditate of course - but if God heard and responds to them I wouldnt know) but whose teachings are incomplete or heretical.And Bill W. - the guy who started AA - I do believe he was enlightened by God (he was a Protestant Christian) and that people working the steps are often guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyway Ill write more on this later."

The pork loin went over so well that when a couple at the parish got married they had me handle the food for their wedding. Roughly 80 pounds of pork (loin and pulled) was served along with 40 pounds of beef.

I have been attending Catechumen classes and meeting with the Priest every other week. Today he gave me December 15th for a Baptism date.

I was upfront and honest. I am a member of alcoholics anonymous. I was firm when I said that I would continue helping drunks sober up and I would not leave my drunks behind.

Last Tuesday the priest said in the catechumen class that he doubted my dedication to the church. This hurt and infuriated me as I have thrown myself into the church, attending church three times a week, volunteering for menial jobs, setting aside AA commitments, helping others as I can. The truth came out in a phone call tonight when I expressed my hurt and bewilderment at being accused of not being committed to the church. The truth came out that I have been lied to for a year and a half and the obstacle to my becoming Orthodox in this church is my continued involvement in AA.

I was a homeless skid row drunk when AA reached out and helped me become human. Every thing I am and every thing I have, including my relationship with God I owe to alcoholics anonymous. I will not leave my drunks behind.

ps. Don't lie to an alcoholic. We're better at it that you are.

just to be clear, I don't hold this against the Orthodox church as this happened at a baptist church too.

Darn-it I cant remember the name of the priest out in Los Angeles who has a google blog on AA/Orthodoxy - but you should look for that if you dont already know about it.In one of his last blogs he said something that surprised me though Ive noticed it seems true.He said that most priests are not very spiritually advanced.Like theyre just simple sinners like you and me and its not a requirement to be real enlightened for them to do their job.My first priest/spiritual father seemed to fit this description and offended me too ( I have a huge pet-peeve for people - especially Orthodox Christians - who have the worldiness in their mentality of social stigmas.In other words people who misunderstand sinners who's sins manifest as drug addictions and value them by worldy stigmatized standards [or something like that].So many Orthodox though believe AA is a God-send....Im sorry that happened to you.Anyways here what I just so happened to have written today on http://www.deathtotheworld.com on this subject: "Yeah Fr. Meletios Weber who alot of people have recently realized is way too liberal wrote a good book but this doesnt back up my argument(for a loss of a better word) of course.He wrote this book "12 Steps of Transformation" - Its an AA book for Orthodox Christians basicly.He gives a translation of that step (26,section 111)(this is totally gonna confirm LeFeu's convictions) and explains how it relates to an AA meeting....Heres a mysterious thing.In AA everyone knows or learns that God speaks through people.And it seems to me that that is just a fact of life.Now of course you dont want to just listen to what anyone says and take it as if its God speaking but at the same time I believe God can tell you something you need to hear from a drunk in the gutter.But in AA and what Fr. Meletios Weber explains is more referring to in an AA or church group or from a sponsor or spiritual adviser....Its weird how AA tends to be Orthodox-approved amongst alot of Orthodoc Christians and believed to be God-given even though by legalistic standards it can seem utterly heretical(at best.) This is why I stopped going to AA though.A while back I seemed ( I use the words "seem" or "seemed" or "seemingly" alot because I know I should not trust my own thinking yet feel a need to communicate this kinda stuff)..Anyway a while back I seemed to have realized that the philosophys that go hand in hand with AA are like those expressed by Eckhart Tolle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle ) and Emmet Fox with his "New Thought Christianity"( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox ). It seems to me that these two guys might just be - much like Lao Tzu - people who have become as enlightened as a soul can get on a persons own without the Orthodox Church,etc.(these people pray and meditate of course - but if God heard and responds to them I wouldnt know) but whose teachings are incomplete or heretical.And Bill W. - the guy who started AA - I do believe he was enlightened by God (he was a Protestant Christian) and that people working the steps are often guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyway Ill write more on this later."

I'm curious about what you feel is heretical about AA.

Here is what I have observed.

Synergy. This is a central concept in Orthodoxy but in western protestantism, depending on how much they are influenced by calvinism there is often only lip service paid to this concept. In AA it is central. The steps of AA make it central. God may do the heavy lifting but we must chop the wood and carry the water.

At the 4th step of AA, AA parts again with much of western christianity with it's focus on introspection. I have often heard AA referred to "humanistic" due to it's introspective aspect. I think it was Issac the Syrian that said "one who sees himself is greater than one who sees the angels". This, I have found is very important in Orthodoxy. It has made my transition much easier when I can discuss issues with my priest from this aspect.

The lack of introspection is directly tied to protestants view of sin. In the west sin is seen as the individual act itself. The very moment the horse escapes the barn if you will. In AA this was passed by and there is discussion of "character defects". These are the discussion of what actions and attitudes that led up to the horse getting out of the barn. In Orthodoxy I find these called passions.

Next is the issue that led my right to the doors of Orthodoxy, step 11, on prayer and meditation. Lets face it, western christianity has no discernable tradition on meditation what so ever. I was listening to an AA speaker talk on the 11th step and he talked about the Jesus prayer, the desert fathers and the Philokalia. Looking into those will only lead you to orthodoxy.

Principles like humility and forgiveness are not given much more than a passing thought in many churches while in AA and Orthodoxy they are indispensible.

Gotta take you to task. You sobered up, you got yours and you have moved on. Good for you. you did what it takes and made good.

What about those you left behind.

The science of recovery from alcoholism is brand new. It is being written as we speak. I believe that the Orthodox church can bring a tremendous amount of healing to a tremendous amount of people. The history is made right now by those that show up and chop the wood and carry the water. People like us.

I was upfront and honest. I am a member of alcoholics anonymous. I was firm when I said that I would continue helping drunks sober up and I would not leave my drunks behind.

Last Tuesday the priest said in the catechumen class that he doubted my dedication to the church. This hurt and infuriated me as I have thrown myself into the church, attending church three times a week, volunteering for menial jobs, setting aside AA commitments, helping others as I can. The truth came out in a phone call tonight when I expressed my hurt and bewilderment at being accused of not being committed to the church. The truth came out that I have been lied to for a year and a half and the obstacle to my becoming Orthodox in this church is my continued involvement in AA.

I was a homeless skid row drunk when AA reached out and helped me become human. Every thing I am and every thing I have, including my relationship with God I owe to alcoholics anonymous. I will not leave my drunks behind.

ps. Don't lie to an alcoholic. We're better at it that you are.

just to be clear, I don't hold this against the Orthodox church as this happened at a baptist church too.

Darn-it I cant remember the name of the priest out in Los Angeles who has a google blog on AA/Orthodoxy - but you should look for that if you dont already know about it.In one of his last blogs he said something that surprised me though Ive noticed it seems true.He said that most priests are not very spiritually advanced.Like theyre just simple sinners like you and me and its not a requirement to be real enlightened for them to do their job.My first priest/spiritual father seemed to fit this description and offended me too ( I have a huge pet-peeve for people - especially Orthodox Christians - who have the worldiness in their mentality of social stigmas.In other words people who misunderstand sinners who's sins manifest as drug addictions and value them by worldy stigmatized standards [or something like that].So many Orthodox though believe AA is a God-send....Im sorry that happened to you.Anyways here what I just so happened to have written today on http://www.deathtotheworld.com on this subject: "Yeah Fr. Meletios Weber who alot of people have recently realized is way too liberal wrote a good book but this doesnt back up my argument(for a loss of a better word) of course.He wrote this book "12 Steps of Transformation" - Its an AA book for Orthodox Christians basicly.He gives a translation of that step (26,section 111)(this is totally gonna confirm LeFeu's convictions) and explains how it relates to an AA meeting....Heres a mysterious thing.In AA everyone knows or learns that God speaks through people.And it seems to me that that is just a fact of life.Now of course you dont want to just listen to what anyone says and take it as if its God speaking but at the same time I believe God can tell you something you need to hear from a drunk in the gutter.But in AA and what Fr. Meletios Weber explains is more referring to in an AA or church group or from a sponsor or spiritual adviser....Its weird how AA tends to be Orthodox-approved amongst alot of Orthodoc Christians and believed to be God-given even though by legalistic standards it can seem utterly heretical(at best.) This is why I stopped going to AA though.A while back I seemed ( I use the words "seem" or "seemed" or "seemingly" alot because I know I should not trust my own thinking yet feel a need to communicate this kinda stuff)..Anyway a while back I seemed to have realized that the philosophys that go hand in hand with AA are like those expressed by Eckhart Tolle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle ) and Emmet Fox with his "New Thought Christianity"( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox ). It seems to me that these two guys might just be - much like Lao Tzu - people who have become as enlightened as a soul can get on a persons own without the Orthodox Church,etc.(these people pray and meditate of course - but if God heard and responds to them I wouldnt know) but whose teachings are incomplete or heretical.And Bill W. - the guy who started AA - I do believe he was enlightened by God (he was a Protestant Christian) and that people working the steps are often guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyway Ill write more on this later."

I'm curious about what you feel is heretical about AA.

Here is what I have observed.

Synergy. This is a central concept in Orthodoxy but in western protestantism, depending on how much they are influenced by calvinism there is often only lip service paid to this concept. In AA it is central. The steps of AA make it central. God may do the heavy lifting but we must chop the wood and carry the water.

At the 4th step of AA, AA parts again with much of western christianity with it's focus on introspection. I have often heard AA referred to "humanistic" due to it's introspective aspect. I think it was Issac the Syrian that said "one who sees himself is greater than one who sees the angels". This, I have found is very important in Orthodoxy. It has made my transition much easier when I can discuss issues with my priest from this aspect.

The lack of introspection is directly tied to protestants view of sin. In the west sin is seen as the individual act itself. The very moment the horse escapes the barn if you will. In AA this was passed by and there is discussion of "character defects". These are the discussion of what actions and attitudes that led up to the horse getting out of the barn. In Orthodoxy I find these called passions.

Next is the issue that led my right to the doors of Orthodoxy, step 11, on prayer and meditation. Lets face it, western christianity has no discernable tradition on meditation what so ever. I was listening to an AA speaker talk on the 11th step and he talked about the Jesus prayer, the desert fathers and the Philokalia. Looking into those will only lead you to orthodoxy.

Principles like humility and forgiveness are not given much more than a passing thought in many churches while in AA and Orthodoxy they are indispensible.

Gotta take you to task. You sobered up, you got yours and you have moved on. Good for you. you did what it takes and made good.

What about those you left behind.

The science of recovery from alcoholism is brand new. It is being written as we speak. I believe that the Orthodox church can bring a tremendous amount of healing to a tremendous amount of people. The history is made right now by those that show up and chop the wood and carry the water. People like us.

I agree with you and Ill probably start going to meetings again - probably NA (trying to kick a legal herbal methadone called Kratom) - I just have experienced alot of people discouraging any sort of religion and proclaiming to realize that anything goes in the realm of spirituality - "All paths lead to the same destination,etc." and in previous personal studies Ive realized that the type of philosophys that go along best with AA spirituality is like Echkart Tolle and Emmot Fox who the latter had a great influence on Bill W. ... And I was a big fan of all these guys and their spirituality and it makes sense but Ive found it here recently really frustrating to be trying to develop and Orthodox worldview and go along with AA at the same time...Of course Ive been trying to realize if old-school legalistic Orthodoxy is the true path as opposed to common American Orthodoxy (or just Orthodox Christianity in America)....

I was upfront and honest. I am a member of alcoholics anonymous. I was firm when I said that I would continue helping drunks sober up and I would not leave my drunks behind.

Last Tuesday the priest said in the catechumen class that he doubted my dedication to the church. This hurt and infuriated me as I have thrown myself into the church, attending church three times a week, volunteering for menial jobs, setting aside AA commitments, helping others as I can. The truth came out in a phone call tonight when I expressed my hurt and bewilderment at being accused of not being committed to the church. The truth came out that I have been lied to for a year and a half and the obstacle to my becoming Orthodox in this church is my continued involvement in AA.

I was a homeless skid row drunk when AA reached out and helped me become human. Every thing I am and every thing I have, including my relationship with God I owe to alcoholics anonymous. I will not leave my drunks behind.

ps. Don't lie to an alcoholic. We're better at it that you are.

just to be clear, I don't hold this against the Orthodox church as this happened at a baptist church too.

Darn-it I cant remember the name of the priest out in Los Angeles who has a google blog on AA/Orthodoxy - but you should look for that if you dont already know about it.In one of his last blogs he said something that surprised me though Ive noticed it seems true.He said that most priests are not very spiritually advanced.Like theyre just simple sinners like you and me and its not a requirement to be real enlightened for them to do their job.My first priest/spiritual father seemed to fit this description and offended me too ( I have a huge pet-peeve for people - especially Orthodox Christians - who have the worldiness in their mentality of social stigmas.In other words people who misunderstand sinners who's sins manifest as drug addictions and value them by worldy stigmatized standards [or something like that].So many Orthodox though believe AA is a God-send....Im sorry that happened to you.Anyways here what I just so happened to have written today on http://www.deathtotheworld.com on this subject: "Yeah Fr. Meletios Weber who alot of people have recently realized is way too liberal wrote a good book but this doesnt back up my argument(for a loss of a better word) of course.He wrote this book "12 Steps of Transformation" - Its an AA book for Orthodox Christians basicly.He gives a translation of that step (26,section 111)(this is totally gonna confirm LeFeu's convictions) and explains how it relates to an AA meeting....Heres a mysterious thing.In AA everyone knows or learns that God speaks through people.And it seems to me that that is just a fact of life.Now of course you dont want to just listen to what anyone says and take it as if its God speaking but at the same time I believe God can tell you something you need to hear from a drunk in the gutter.But in AA and what Fr. Meletios Weber explains is more referring to in an AA or church group or from a sponsor or spiritual adviser....Its weird how AA tends to be Orthodox-approved amongst alot of Orthodoc Christians and believed to be God-given even though by legalistic standards it can seem utterly heretical(at best.) This is why I stopped going to AA though.A while back I seemed ( I use the words "seem" or "seemed" or "seemingly" alot because I know I should not trust my own thinking yet feel a need to communicate this kinda stuff)..Anyway a while back I seemed to have realized that the philosophys that go hand in hand with AA are like those expressed by Eckhart Tolle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle ) and Emmet Fox with his "New Thought Christianity"( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox ). It seems to me that these two guys might just be - much like Lao Tzu - people who have become as enlightened as a soul can get on a persons own without the Orthodox Church,etc.(these people pray and meditate of course - but if God heard and responds to them I wouldnt know) but whose teachings are incomplete or heretical.And Bill W. - the guy who started AA - I do believe he was enlightened by God (he was a Protestant Christian) and that people working the steps are often guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyway Ill write more on this later."

I'm curious about what you feel is heretical about AA.

Here is what I have observed.

Synergy. This is a central concept in Orthodoxy but in western protestantism, depending on how much they are influenced by calvinism there is often only lip service paid to this concept. In AA it is central. The steps of AA make it central. God may do the heavy lifting but we must chop the wood and carry the water.

At the 4th step of AA, AA parts again with much of western christianity with it's focus on introspection. I have often heard AA referred to "humanistic" due to it's introspective aspect. I think it was Issac the Syrian that said "one who sees himself is greater than one who sees the angels". This, I have found is very important in Orthodoxy. It has made my transition much easier when I can discuss issues with my priest from this aspect.

The lack of introspection is directly tied to protestants view of sin. In the west sin is seen as the individual act itself. The very moment the horse escapes the barn if you will. In AA this was passed by and there is discussion of "character defects". These are the discussion of what actions and attitudes that led up to the horse getting out of the barn. In Orthodoxy I find these called passions.

Next is the issue that led my right to the doors of Orthodoxy, step 11, on prayer and meditation. Lets face it, western christianity has no discernable tradition on meditation what so ever. I was listening to an AA speaker talk on the 11th step and he talked about the Jesus prayer, the desert fathers and the Philokalia. Looking into those will only lead you to orthodoxy.

Principles like humility and forgiveness are not given much more than a passing thought in many churches while in AA and Orthodoxy they are indispensible.

Gotta take you to task. You sobered up, you got yours and you have moved on. Good for you. you did what it takes and made good.

What about those you left behind.

The science of recovery from alcoholism is brand new. It is being written as we speak. I believe that the Orthodox church can bring a tremendous amount of healing to a tremendous amount of people. The history is made right now by those that show up and chop the wood and carry the water. People like us.

I agree with you and Ill probably start going to meetings again - probably NA (trying to kick a legal herbal methadone called Kratom) - I just have experienced alot of people discouraging any sort of religion and proclaiming to realize that anything goes in the realm of spirituality - "All paths lead to the same destination,etc." and in previous personal studies Ive realized that the type of philosophys that go along best with AA spirituality is like Echkart Tolle and Emmot Fox who the latter had a great influence on Bill W. ... And I was a big fan of all these guys and their spirituality and it makes sense but Ive found it here recently really frustrating to be trying to develop and Orthodox worldview and go along with AA at the same time...Of course Ive been trying to realize if old-school legalistic Orthodoxy is the true path as opposed to common American Orthodoxy (or just Orthodox Christianity in America)....

Yep, once a month I speak at a drug/alcoholism treatment center and I often get the eye rolling and such when I speak of things spiritual. I figure if the martyrs of the church can take what they did i can suffer a little social awkwardness. Those with ears to hear will hear though.

On that vein though, A change that I have noticed in the recovery community over time has been the larger and larger number of people with no spiritual backround at all. None. They are not mad at God, they don't hate the Pope. Nothing, no one has ever even offered it to them. As you recall Most AA meetings will end with The Lords Prayer. I am finding a larger and larger number of people that do not even know that. I keep a prayer book with me to share with them. I am also finding that many of these people are very embarrassed that they are so lacking in things spiritual. Out of shame they don't ask, but they do watch. So when you go back, watch to see who quietly declines to say the Lords Prayer, it may not be obstinacy you see. They could probably use a friend in the know.

I was upfront and honest. I am a member of alcoholics anonymous. I was firm when I said that I would continue helping drunks sober up and I would not leave my drunks behind.

Last Tuesday the priest said in the catechumen class that he doubted my dedication to the church. This hurt and infuriated me as I have thrown myself into the church, attending church three times a week, volunteering for menial jobs, setting aside AA commitments, helping others as I can. The truth came out in a phone call tonight when I expressed my hurt and bewilderment at being accused of not being committed to the church. The truth came out that I have been lied to for a year and a half and the obstacle to my becoming Orthodox in this church is my continued involvement in AA.

I was a homeless skid row drunk when AA reached out and helped me become human. Every thing I am and every thing I have, including my relationship with God I owe to alcoholics anonymous. I will not leave my drunks behind.

ps. Don't lie to an alcoholic. We're better at it that you are.

just to be clear, I don't hold this against the Orthodox church as this happened at a baptist church too.

Darn-it I cant remember the name of the priest out in Los Angeles who has a google blog on AA/Orthodoxy - but you should look for that if you dont already know about it.In one of his last blogs he said something that surprised me though Ive noticed it seems true.He said that most priests are not very spiritually advanced.Like theyre just simple sinners like you and me and its not a requirement to be real enlightened for them to do their job.My first priest/spiritual father seemed to fit this description and offended me too ( I have a huge pet-peeve for people - especially Orthodox Christians - who have the worldiness in their mentality of social stigmas.In other words people who misunderstand sinners who's sins manifest as drug addictions and value them by worldy stigmatized standards [or something like that].So many Orthodox though believe AA is a God-send....Im sorry that happened to you.Anyways here what I just so happened to have written today on http://www.deathtotheworld.com on this subject: "Yeah Fr. Meletios Weber who alot of people have recently realized is way too liberal wrote a good book but this doesnt back up my argument(for a loss of a better word) of course.He wrote this book "12 Steps of Transformation" - Its an AA book for Orthodox Christians basicly.He gives a translation of that step (26,section 111)(this is totally gonna confirm LeFeu's convictions) and explains how it relates to an AA meeting....Heres a mysterious thing.In AA everyone knows or learns that God speaks through people.And it seems to me that that is just a fact of life.Now of course you dont want to just listen to what anyone says and take it as if its God speaking but at the same time I believe God can tell you something you need to hear from a drunk in the gutter.But in AA and what Fr. Meletios Weber explains is more referring to in an AA or church group or from a sponsor or spiritual adviser....Its weird how AA tends to be Orthodox-approved amongst alot of Orthodoc Christians and believed to be God-given even though by legalistic standards it can seem utterly heretical(at best.) This is why I stopped going to AA though.A while back I seemed ( I use the words "seem" or "seemed" or "seemingly" alot because I know I should not trust my own thinking yet feel a need to communicate this kinda stuff)..Anyway a while back I seemed to have realized that the philosophys that go hand in hand with AA are like those expressed by Eckhart Tolle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle ) and Emmet Fox with his "New Thought Christianity"( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox ). It seems to me that these two guys might just be - much like Lao Tzu - people who have become as enlightened as a soul can get on a persons own without the Orthodox Church,etc.(these people pray and meditate of course - but if God heard and responds to them I wouldnt know) but whose teachings are incomplete or heretical.And Bill W. - the guy who started AA - I do believe he was enlightened by God (he was a Protestant Christian) and that people working the steps are often guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyway Ill write more on this later."

I'm curious about what you feel is heretical about AA.

Here is what I have observed.

Synergy. This is a central concept in Orthodoxy but in western protestantism, depending on how much they are influenced by calvinism there is often only lip service paid to this concept. In AA it is central. The steps of AA make it central. God may do the heavy lifting but we must chop the wood and carry the water.

At the 4th step of AA, AA parts again with much of western christianity with it's focus on introspection. I have often heard AA referred to "humanistic" due to it's introspective aspect. I think it was Issac the Syrian that said "one who sees himself is greater than one who sees the angels". This, I have found is very important in Orthodoxy. It has made my transition much easier when I can discuss issues with my priest from this aspect.

The lack of introspection is directly tied to protestants view of sin. In the west sin is seen as the individual act itself. The very moment the horse escapes the barn if you will. In AA this was passed by and there is discussion of "character defects". These are the discussion of what actions and attitudes that led up to the horse getting out of the barn. In Orthodoxy I find these called passions.

Next is the issue that led my right to the doors of Orthodoxy, step 11, on prayer and meditation. Lets face it, western christianity has no discernable tradition on meditation what so ever. I was listening to an AA speaker talk on the 11th step and he talked about the Jesus prayer, the desert fathers and the Philokalia. Looking into those will only lead you to orthodoxy.

Principles like humility and forgiveness are not given much more than a passing thought in many churches while in AA and Orthodoxy they are indispensible.

Gotta take you to task. You sobered up, you got yours and you have moved on. Good for you. you did what it takes and made good.

What about those you left behind.

The science of recovery from alcoholism is brand new. It is being written as we speak. I believe that the Orthodox church can bring a tremendous amount of healing to a tremendous amount of people. The history is made right now by those that show up and chop the wood and carry the water. People like us.

I agree with you and Ill probably start going to meetings again - probably NA (trying to kick a legal herbal methadone called Kratom) - I just have experienced alot of people discouraging any sort of religion and proclaiming to realize that anything goes in the realm of spirituality - "All paths lead to the same destination,etc." and in previous personal studies Ive realized that the type of philosophys that go along best with AA spirituality is like Echkart Tolle and Emmot Fox who the latter had a great influence on Bill W. ... And I was a big fan of all these guys and their spirituality and it makes sense but Ive found it here recently really frustrating to be trying to develop and Orthodox worldview and go along with AA at the same time...Of course Ive been trying to realize if old-school legalistic Orthodoxy is the true path as opposed to common American Orthodoxy (or just Orthodox Christianity in America)....

Yep, once a month I speak at a drug/alcoholism treatment center and I often get the eye rolling and such when I speak of things spiritual. I figure if the martyrs of the church can take what they did i can suffer a little social awkwardness. Those with ears to hear will hear though.

On that vein though, A change that I have noticed in the recovery community over time has been the larger and larger number of people with no spiritual backround at all. None. They are not mad at God, they don't hate the Pope. Nothing, no one has ever even offered it to them. As you recall Most AA meetings will end with The Lords Prayer. I am finding a larger and larger number of people that do not even know that. I keep a prayer book with me to share with them. I am also finding that many of these people are very embarrassed that they are so lacking in things spiritual. Out of shame they don't ask, but they do watch. So when you go back, watch to see who quietly declines to say the Lords Prayer, it may not be obstinacy you see. They could probably use a friend in the know.

Yeah AA seems often to be all about "God can be anything you want him to be"... Fr. Meletios Weber explained in Steps of Transformation that God does in fact remain anonymous in AA and allows people to like grasp Him indirectly or something - you know like a doorknob! lol Ive also experienced very Christian - like against the AA rules Christian - meetings where ppl were naming Jesus Christ and quoting the Bible directly and like 75% percent of the room were cheering Jesus while the other percent sat there looking alienated but of course these Christians were Protestant and possibly proclaiming prelestious (i made that word up) Gospel stuff...Anyway Im more of a fly than a honeybee andf I would very much like to truly realize by God's grace that AA,etc. is in fact what its members believe it to be.Its just confusing being new to Orthodoxy and being told Im supposed to learn from a group of people who voice notions suggesting confidence of their eternal well-being yet they might believe God to be..I dont know say - Impersonal Spirit or Thor or "the group" or whatever...But yeah we know where the Holy Spirit is - not where it isnt but again AA seems like a manifestation of utter heresy but then many Orthodox see it as being totally Orthodox-esque in its essence or something - or the spirituality and Ive seen what theyre talking about...Ill end with this : "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

"as [you've] informed us that respect chills love, it is natural to conclude that all your pretty flights arise from your pampered sensibility; and that, vain of this fancied preeminence of organs, you foster every emotion till the fumes, mounting to your brain, dispel the sober suggestions of reason. It is not in this view surprising that when you should argue you become impassioned, and that reflection inflames your imagination instead of enlightening your understanding." - Mary Wollstonecraft

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Congratulations! And it appears from the photo you weren't baptised in an inflatable pool lol!

On a side note, my experience of NA is that the Higher Power can be the group consciousness; an addition to make it non-secular and athiest/agnostic-friendly. I would've thought involvement in NA/AA would be a form of almsgiving? My Priest has always been supportive of my involvement in it at least.

Logged

I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

sometimes I'm a bit slow . so can you explain why he feels that way. I mean does he think AA is taking time away you could be spending in church? im very curious.also, your heart is correct, follow it and don't be discuraged by one priest!it IS worth it to travel to go to the correct church!!!!

o be honest, I am just guessing about problems clergy have had with AA. I ask but I don't think I have ever gotten an honest answer. What I do get are a few vague "well i heard this bad thing or that" about AA that is always very off base. This last time he said he heard that we couldn't talk about God or Jesus in meetings (I and many others do often). I had one Baptist preacher that thought that when we pray in AA we pray to a deity called "Higher power". Some have expressed a problem with the concept of "God as I understand God".

I personally think it's an ego thing. They want to be the only source of the persons connection to God and AA is not under their control so it scares them a bit. But again I'm just speculating

The church should be your one connection to the Lord. Period. You cry ego and yet your the one who gets pissed off when the priest questions you and you storm off and basically say "I quit." Your defensive about AA. Plain and simple. Almost like a cult member. Before you cry 'ego' show some humility and try obeying your priest.

Hey Red A --- Ignore this uninformed - well any adjective to describe his post and what it reflects of the poster's judgment and sensitivity, let alone good sense, would be uncharitable for me to post.

He has no right, authority, knowledge of you, or any relationship with you to judge you like this. You came to this board with sincerity and hurting and came away scarred by this individual's post (I was thirsty and you gave me a glass of sand; I was hurting and you blasted me for a blanket endorsement of a priest who might very well be a bad priest - they do exist you know! Lord when were you thirsty and I gave you a glass of sand? - when you made that idotic post on OC.net to my dear lamb who has been winning his battle with addition and was deeply wounded by a clergy member who is very out of touch and placing my lamb in a dangerous position by interferring with the one thing that has kept him sober. Not only that, he has been a help to others and this priest could cause the downfall of those others as well.

Listen, KShaft, (I am figuratively saying, look at me, look me directly in the eye, so you completely understand), unless you have a loved one who has struggled with addiction or had that struggle yourself, keep your uninformed, fundamentalist advice to topics you can safely speak to others about without potentially causing real damage.

I haven't posted on OC.net for a long time until recently. So I don't know, maybe you are a really good guy and you just took a stupid pill this morning. So maybe you deserve a mulligan for this post as far as the post itself.

But as far as what you said to Red A - unbelievabe, uncharitable, and if you knew anything about addiction , quite stupid.

Red ASo glad you found the right parish and priest!Congratulations. Many years to you.

Keep leaving the 99 behind (figuratively speaking when you are away from your parish attending to AA ministy; because you are not really leaving, you are just being an Orthodox Christian out in the world, albeit in a very specific place) to find more and more lost sheep.

One thing Orthodoxy DOES TEACH. We are all on our own path and God will judge us acordingly. Not all of the AA people you sponsor and help will become Othodox, but some might! Some may attend heterodox churches; others may go nowhere. But you are helping them get back on the path and re-start their journey, rather than being lost in the weeds of addiction.

Thank you all for your support guidance and even the butt chewing. My Baptism was on a saturday. There were 7 people from church there and nine from AA that traveled about 30 miles, including a presbyterian minister that is my AA sponsor.

For the record: Ive been attending AA again for the last month and a half and feel like Im realizing that it is pretty much Orthodox Christianity anonymous...In the words of Fr. George who writes the Orthodoxy and Recovery google-blog: "We Orthodox Christians in recovery have come to realize that the 12-Steps are indeed a simplified manifestation of the fullness of the Orthodox Faith. We believe that there are many people in recovery who are avoiding affiliation with religion because they are unknowingly seeking the True Church. We also believe there are many people in the Church suffering from their own denial of their disease, but don't know how to get help."

For the record: Ive been attending AA again for the last month and a half and feel like Im realizing that it is pretty much Orthodox Christianity anonymous..

Outstanding!

AA needs what Orthodoxy has to offer. I already have several of the people at my home meeting using the word "brokenness" when talking about what AA calls the spiritual malady. I think in the Orthodox context "brokenness" fits much better.

Red A - I would quote you but you know how when you do that then when you write it bounces around all crazy and you cant see what your writing (or is that just on the computers I use) anyway : Thanks! You know what else is interesting? My sponsor who is an Orthodox priest kinda just so happened to give me "Father Arseny 1893-1973 Priest,Prisoner,Spiritual Father" wich Ive been nourishing myself on as it is especially good recovery literature! I kinda forget specificly why exactly at the moment but Ill try to include that later.(Its probably just part of the ongoing amazing realization that 12-step recovery really is Orthodox Christianity - wich is just really amazing to someone whos been trying to get this for years and years and years and exploring all these different "spiritual paths" and am now actually experiencing a gradual full-blown spiritual awakening.etc,etc.)

Red A - I would quote you but you know how when you do that then when you write it bounces around all crazy and you cant see what your writing (or is that just on the computers I use) anyway : Thanks! You know what else is interesting? My sponsor who is an Orthodox priest kinda just so happened to give me "Father Arseny 1893-1973 Priest,Prisoner,Spiritual Father" wich Ive been nourishing myself on as it is especially good recovery literature! I kinda forget specificly why exactly at the moment but Ill try to include that later.(Its probably just part of the ongoing amazing realization that 12-step recovery really is Orthodox Christianity - wich is just really amazing to someone whos been trying to get this for years and years and years and exploring all these different "spiritual paths" and am now actually experiencing a gradual full-blown spiritual awakening.etc,etc.)

I love Father Arseny. I almost took that name at Baptism. I have only read half of that book. I feel so small after reading about him. I get disturbed over such trivial stuff and struggle to keep humble and silent, then I read of his trials and how he maintained such towering faith in the face of such adversity, well, I just wonder why they even let me in the doors of an Orthodox Church much less let me be a member. A good book to keep my gratitude where it should be.

Red A - I would quote you but you know how when you do that then when you write it bounces around all crazy and you cant see what your writing (or is that just on the computers I use) anyway : Thanks! You know what else is interesting? My sponsor who is an Orthodox priest kinda just so happened to give me "Father Arseny 1893-1973 Priest,Prisoner,Spiritual Father" wich Ive been nourishing myself on as it is especially good recovery literature! I kinda forget specificly why exactly at the moment but Ill try to include that later.(Its probably just part of the ongoing amazing realization that 12-step recovery really is Orthodox Christianity - wich is just really amazing to someone whos been trying to get this for years and years and years and exploring all these different "spiritual paths" and am now actually experiencing a gradual full-blown spiritual awakening.etc,etc.)

I love Father Arseny. I almost took that name at Baptism. I have only read half of that book. I feel so small after reading about him. I get disturbed over such trivial stuff and struggle to keep humble and silent, then I read of his trials and how he maintained such towering faith in the face of such adversity, well, I just wonder why they even let me in the doors of an Orthodox Church much less let me be a member. A good book to keep my gratitude where it should be.