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JorgeA

Posted 28 August 2012 - 04:23 PM

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The solution (which even lawyers might be able to understand) could be for Samsung to place a start button at the left end of the taskbar, instead of a dock in the center. (Of course, there's no solution to a hypothetical patent that covered any icons anywhere on the screen.)

Oh, and lest MS lawyers then get their own swing at Samsung, it could be named "Home" (rather than "Start"). I hereby waive all copyright to the idea...

jaclaz

Posted 29 August 2012 - 01:21 AM

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The solution (which even lawyers might be able to understand) could be for Samsung to place a start button at the left end of the taskbar, instead of a dock in the center. (Of course, there's no solution to a hypothetical patent that covered any icons anywhere on the screen.)

Being minimalist, I personally find the blackbox shell (and other interfaces) approach, the most convenient: righ click anywhere on the desktop and a cascading menu appears.

The usual result too, with probably 90% of commenters opening a can of whoop@ss on the guy and Microsoft. He brought it upon himself really by pretty much echoing the standard softie argument, to paraphrase: 'forcing Metro onto the desktop is necessary because they MUST penetrate the mobile market, to stop Google, and to stop Apple'. I find this completely absurd and frankly it angers me because they are saying we need suspend our disbelief at this abomination of an OS, we must overlook Microsoft abusing their desktop monopoly as they convert it to an Apple-style walled garden business model, and we must allow all this so that they may sell their pOS on a few mobile devices.

To cut to the chase, what they are really telling us to do is to sacrifice our integrity and take one for the team. Team Microsoft. Team MicroMonopoly. Amazingly, neither Redmond nor its fanboys have figured out that this arrogance makes many people angry. I know I am. Steaming boiling angry. Add in their many recent missteps and the fibs and outright lies and I don't even recognize the company anymore. Google > Apple > Microsoft. I never thought it would be possible that I would list them in that order of preference! But there it is.

MicrosoftWindows8 : Google and Apple suck! ( That leaves only us for you to Love )

jaclaz

Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:30 AM

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One of the increasingly rare positive Windows 8 Metro articles ...

Though with some "deviated" reasoning....

Yet, it has to be this way. PC sales are down, while iPad sales are surging. People are turning to the iPad when they just need to get online or play with some apps. Although PC purists insist that you can't do real work on an iPad, the body of evidence to the contrary keeps increasing.

The "body of evidence" IMNSHO opinion is not proving that you can work on an iPad, it simply proving that noone works anymore.

Personally I find the iPad a very nice little gadget and it is a pleasure when in the morning you use it to read the newspaper (which is not to be considered "work").Later it is very convenient to check your e-mail box (which is not - yet - to be considered "work").Once you have quickly checked your e-mails, it is very convenient to reply to your mom that sent you some greetings with a three or four words message.(again not - yet - to be considered "work")Same goes for throwing al the garbage publicity in the dustbin.(again not - yet - to be considered "work")Then there is an urgent message with attached (say) a few .pdf's that you have to read and comment (and the thingy is very useful for reading that), but since what you have to do is to write a ten pages analytical comment on the contents of the .pdf's, you are pretty much stuck (but let's say that you can attach a keyboard to the thingy and manage to write the needed document, this is work, and though made in a very INconvenient way, it is doable)Then there is (say) a .dwg that needs a few corrections and things start getting more difficult (I have actually used Autocad on an iPad, I am not making it up) you start by zooming in and out like mad to get an idea of what the heck is the issue in the drawing, then after having got a headache for the need of focusing in and out n times you finally find what would have been evident at first sight on a 22" screen. Now comes the difficult part, what would have took you (say) 15 minutes with a mouse or with a graphic tablet results in making you take 45 minutes. (total needed time on the iPad: 60 minutes, total needed time to do the same on your "common" PC workstation: 20 minutes).Then there comes the need for making from scratch a (complex) spreadsheet, you can see on the stupid little screen 8 colums and 25 rows (I am faking these numbers from memory, but they shouldn't be that far off) or, if you turn it 90 degrees you can see 13 colums and 15 rows (on my old style 22" I can see 26 columns x 50 rows at 100% zoom) and you start (still if you have the optional keyboard) to input data and formulas (and you thak god that you were there in the old times and remember almost every keyboard shortcut), but wait a minute, you don't have the F-keys ! Are you really willing to use the thingy without F2 and F4 and wihout a mouse? And to input a long series onf numbers without a numeric keypad? After three or four hours (the double it would have took you on a "common" PC) you finally have your spreadsheet done, but you cannot actually see if it prints correctly as the preview of the A3 is so small that you need to zoom in and out until your headache is much worse, in the meantime it's around noon and you decide that you better get back to bed to see if the headache stops.

tomasz86

Posted 29 August 2012 - 04:07 AM

I'd like to disagree. I've got a tablet (a different one, not an iPad ) and find it very useful for always having access to my materials (mostly PDFs). You can synchronise data easily (Dropbox) and are always able to check them even if you're outside, in a train, bus or wherever else. It's not meant to replace a real machine and of course everything depends on what kind of work you're doing. For reading, highlighting text or adding short comments it does play its role well. If you want to write more text then of course a normal desktop computer or even a laptop is much better.

jaclaz

Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:04 AM

I'd like to disagree. I've got a tablet (a different one, not an iPad ) and find it very useful for always having access to my materials (mostly PDFs). You can synchronise data easily (Dropbox) and are always able to check them even if you're outside, in a train, bus or wherever else. It's not meant to replace a real machine and of course everything depends on what kind of work you're doing. For reading, highlighting text or adding short comments it does play its role well. If you want to write more text then of course a normal desktop computer or even a laptop is much better.

We are not at all disagreeing , what you described is (mainly) a "passive" user of the computer, you use it to access/read already created material (your .pdf's) and make to them very little changes (highlighting/short comments).

For this use, an iPad (or similar tablet) is a very convenient tool .

Which means that all editors working at newspapers and the like have an ideal platform to do their work on the move, but let me doubt that actual journalists find it productive to actually write the articles, that the editors will later check on their tablets, on a tablet. (as well, most students do have a powerful tool to read, learn, search and find answers to their question, but this is not "work").

The whole point is that the tablet is NOT a replacement for a real PC, but since a large number of users have no actual use for a real PC, they use a tablet instead of it, and the marketing guru's erroneusly (IMHO) get from the numbers some "wrong" conclusions.

You can stamp your feet all the time (and as hard as) you want, but the fact is that everyone (every single worker that needs a PC for his work) has one PC at work and a similar one at home, and unless they broke they won't be replaced anytime soon.I.e. it is a saturated market, that changed in the last few years from a "primary" market to a "replacement" one.

The tablet market is different, it is new and a tablet is something that is additional to a PC, NOT a replacement for it, Apple (iPad) and Samsung (Galaxy and similar) were very good in making more than decent products and lead this sector of the market.No surprise that MS (with it's Surface) wants to enter this separate (and "rich") market. (whether it will have success or not in this, it will soon be seen, depending on how the new thingy will work)

BUT the taken approach of dumbing down the PC in order to make it more similar to the tablet, so that people will have (in the MS peeps' perverted mind) a "same" environment on the tablet and on the PC and, since people will be forced to use a (Windows 8) PC at work, then they will choose the MS tablet over the competitors models because the interface will be similar is (still IMHO) a stupid approach.

CharlotteTheHarlot

Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:08 AM

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Personally I find the iPad a very nice little gadget and it is a pleasure when in the morning you use it to read the newspaper (which is not to be considered "work").Later it is very convenient to check your e-mail box (which is not - yet - to be considered "work").Once you have quickly checked your e-mails, it is very convenient to reply to your mom that sent you some greetings with a three or four words message.(again not - yet - to be considered "work")Same goes for throwing al the garbage publicity in the dustbin.(again not - yet - to be considered "work")Then there is an urgent message with attached (say) a few .pdf's that you have to read and comment (and the thingy is very useful for reading that), but since what you have to do is to write a ten pages analytical comment on the contents of the .pdf's, you are pretty much stuck (but let's say that you can attach a keyboard to the thingy and manage to write the needed document, this is work, and though made in a very INconvenient way, it is doable)Then there is (say) a .dwg that needs a few corrections and things start getting more difficult (I have actually used Autocad on an iPad, I am not making it up) you start by zooming in and out like mad to get an idea of what the heck is the issue in the drawing, then after having got a headache for the need of focusing in and out n times you finally find what would have been evident at first sight on a 22" screen. Now comes the difficult part, what would have took you (say) 15 minutes with a mouse or with a graphic tablet results in making you take 45 minutes. (total needed time on the iPad: 60 minutes, total needed time to do the same on your "common" PC workstation: 20 minutes).Then there comes the need for making from scratch a (complex) spreadsheet, you can see on the stupid little screen 8 colums and 25 rows (I am faking these numbers from memory, but they shouldn't be that far off) or, if you turn it 90 degrees you can see 13 colums and 15 rows (on my old style 22" I can see 26 columns x 50 rows at 100% zoom) and you start (still if you have the optional keyboard) to input data and formulas (and you thak god that you were there in the old times and remember almost every keyboard shortcut), but wait a minute, you don't have the F-keys ! Are you really willing to use the thingy without F2 and F4 and wihout a mouse? And to input a long series onf numbers without a numeric keypad? After three or four hours (the double it would have took you on a "common" PC) you finally have your spreadsheet done, but you cannot actually see if it prints correctly as the preview of the A3 is so small that you need to zoom in and out until your headache is much worse, in the meantime it's around noon and you decide that you better get back to bed to see if the headache stops.

You explained that so well that I just had to repeat it. ( You also say it nicer than I do, you must have lower blood pressure )

I'm glad you mentioned the spreadsheet on a widescreen versus a toy one. When we went from the ubiquitous 17" to the now common 24" (most of mine anyway) we gained almost 100% real width increase (+/- considering font and resolution and aspect) . When talking about spreadsheets this was by every definition of the words, a huge productivity boost. Ditto for graphics, imaging, Photoshop, CAD, PDF's, and even web browsing since all the open tabs are no longer microscopic. I'll bet that many did exactly what I did for countless years, compacting spreadsheets, auto width columns, downloading tiny fonts, doing every trick under the sun to fit it on screen with as little scrolling as possible. Then boom! Overnight, years of tedious work was (happily) superceded by an actual technological advance - the availability of lots more pixels and real estate. There have been few times where such an immediate and drastic positive change was thrust upon us.

Returning all these tasks to 17" monitors would make me unhappy. Smooshing them on to toy devices? Only as a last resort. But that's not to say it isn't convenient to take one into the bathroom as reading material. ;-)

Anyway, fanboys take note, positive change is always welcome, and we do know what positive change is when we see it. Windows 8 and Metro is no such thing.

tomasz86

Posted 29 August 2012 - 06:34 AM

I just don't like calling tablets toys. It's up to you how you use them. Someone may indeed use a tablet only for Web browsing, chatting and playing games but it doesn't mean that it's a "toy". Many people use desktops or laptops only for leisure activities too. Would you call them toys? Of course you're right about passiveness of tablet usage (at least most of it) but in such passive activities like I described above it's actually better than a desktop (especially when you're using it outside in many different places) and also more mobile than a laptop (+much longer battery life when it's ARM).

It's the same thing. Big screens are very nice when used at home / workplace but not when you're in a train. In my case I travel by train a lot (at least 1,5 hour ride) and I can't think of any better device in such circumstances. For some activities smartphones can be used in the same way too but not for reading simply because of the screen size.

Tripredacus

Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:38 AM

The solution (which even lawyers might be able to understand) could be for Samsung to place a start button at the left end of the taskbar, instead of a dock in the center. (Of course, there's no solution to a hypothetical patent that covered any icons anywhere on the screen.)

Oh, and lest MS lawyers then get their own swing at Samsung, it could be named "Home" (rather than "Start"). I hereby waive all copyright to the idea...

Well Samsung should know that there is a binding policy with Windows 8. Obviously they didn't read it. I doubt this "Start Menu" widget ever officially ships, else Samsung will have violated their agreement with Microsoft.

CharlotteTheHarlot

Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:14 AM

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It's the same thing. Big screens are very nice when used at home / workplace but not when you're in a train. In my case I travel by train a lot (at least 1,5 hour ride) and I can't think of any better device in such circumstances. For some activities smartphones can be used in the same way too but not for reading simply because of the screen size.

No disagreement from me either. You are exercising free will and choice doing what you feel works best for you.

BTW, I say 'toy' not as an insult, but when directly comparing them to something of superior size and functionality. If I were comparing a tablet to a phone or to nothing at all, the tablet clearly wins. It's all relative.

I think you will find that the largest amount of criticism of Microsoft and their Windows 8 Metro turd is directly related to the destruction of choice. I know this is what drives me bananas. The fanboys saying "sorry, you got no choice, it's progress" and insulting us "you just hate progress you hater!" or "it's the same desktop, nothing changed" or "you're doing it wrong using a mouse, you should be holding your arms out to a touchscreen" ... Those that they call haters, people like me, would never try to take away your choice to use it or not. It's not my business anyway.

So I think its great you choose to use a tablet on a train. Depending on the train seating and luxury I just might have a tablet or even a laptop myself.

tomasz86

Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:07 AM

My opinion is no different than yours when it comes to Windows 8. I just think that people look down on tablets too often as if they were completely useless I use the tablet for different things than I use my desktop and vice versa. Their functionalities are different. In my case for writing (input) I use the desktop but for reading (output) mostly the tablet. Writing is much more comfortable on the first one but reading is much better on the latter (I hate reading long texts having to sit in one position and look at the monitor screen for a long time). On the other hand, I couldn't imagine having the same interface on both of them. They're just different - like a car and a bicycle

I don't remember who it was but someone said that Windows 8 would have been the best Windows ever if only there had been a choice between Metro and Desktop.

PS The train is not very luxurious You sometimes have to stay during the whole ride because there are no free seats. I do have a laptop (a rather old one though) but don't really use it any more because the tablet is just more universal. And at home I just use the desktop.

CharlotteTheHarlot

Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:48 AM

I don't remember who it was but someone said that Windows 8 would have been the best Windows ever if only there had been a choice between Metro and Desktop.

Yep. And there really are countless ways they could have gone too. Many of us so-called 'haters' have actually been trying to help them all along in our comments. For example, early on with the DP, the obvious question from many was why didn't they simply superimpose the Taskbar (with Aero Glass) plus Start Menu right on the Metro screen, or vice versa, so all choices were available at once. Mockups were made and linked around the blogs. This could be refined with a series of checkboxes to de-select components.

From my perspective, seeing the obvious resemblance to concepts on the Xbox, Zune and in MCE (Media Center), I thought they had an incredibly easy way to go if they had chosen to. But, they chose poorly, opting for a nightmarish redesign of everything instead of one simple thing.

All they had to do on the front-end was leave the Windows 7 GUI including the Start Menu alone (or maybe improve upon it) and then really concentrate on developing Metro as a refined MCE application (which is user-selectable as fullscreen or resizable window). On the back end they could refine their own existing VM concepts or even incorporate something 3rd party like Sandboxie to manage the app installs and interface to the store. They could even go the Steam route or some combination of all these ideas. The final product for desktops and laptops (existing Windows systems) would simply be a downloadable add-in module from Windows update or a completely separate purchase.

So finally ... on your Start Menu and/or Quicklaunch and/or Taskbar and/or Desktop you have a icon for Metro just like you have for Media Center or WMP or anything else. People like the fanboys could choose to add it to their startup so they avoid the dreaded desktop completely. People like us can choose whether or not to ever click the Metro icon in the first place. Everybody's happy.

Of course, this is all about existing Windows systems and how-to design an ethical, non-intrusive way to offer Metro into these systems without forcing anything or leveraging their dangerous monopoly. Obviously for new markets like tablets and phones, they get a full featured version (as it already was). Now, how to name it? Maybe leave Windows 8 out of this cycle. They can call the phone/tablet release Windows Mobile or Windows Tiles or Windows RT. The existing Windows systems on desktops and laptops gets offered the previously described add-in simply called Windows Mobile Dock or Windows Tiles Dock or Windows RT Dock or similar. Meanwhile Windows 7 is continued as a product for new systems until a proper and worthy upgrade deserving of a new name is completed.

jaclaz

Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

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@CharlotteTheHarlot

Really, you are becoming outdated.

MS dropped the use of Metro as the name of the interface.

The proposed way is (since a few posts) to call it Metro "Nameless Crap Interface", which you can well abbreviate as NCI (the original abbreviation that had a final S in it, shorthand for you know what , has been retired because Jethro Gibbs and all the guys/gals there are nice peeps .

JorgeA

Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:38 AM

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The solution (which even lawyers might be able to understand) could be for Samsung to place a start button at the left end of the taskbar, instead of a dock in the center. (Of course, there's no solution to a hypothetical patent that covered any icons anywhere on the screen.)

Being minimalist, I personally find the blackbox shell (and other interfaces) approach, the most convenient: righ click anywhere on the desktop and a cascading menu appears.

JorgeA

Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:41 AM

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Well Samsung should know that there is a binding policy with Windows 8. Obviously they didn't read it. I doubt this "Start Menu" widget ever officially ships, else Samsung will have violated their agreement with Microsoft.

You're kidding!?! You mean that Microsoft is requiring OEMs to not put a start menu on their Windows installations? (How'd you find out?)

CharlotteTheHarlot

Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:54 AM

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Really, you are becoming outdated.

MS dropped the use of Metro as the name of the interface.

The proposed way is (since a few posts) to call it Metro "Nameless Crap Interface", which you can well abbreviate as NCI (the original abbreviation that had a final S in it, shorthand for you know what , has been retired because Jethro Gibbs and all the guys/gals there are nice peeps .

Tripredacus

Posted 29 August 2012 - 12:38 PM

Well Samsung should know that there is a binding policy with Windows 8. Obviously they didn't read it. I doubt this "Start Menu" widget ever officially ships, else Samsung will have violated their agreement with Microsoft.

You're kidding!?! You mean that Microsoft is requiring OEMs to not put a start menu on their Windows installations?

Its not so specific. OEMs can't include something that is basically a Start Screen (previously Metro screen) replacement... aka some method of launching multiple apps, which is what Start Screen is meant to do. In addition, OEMs can't enable the Widget Bar. There is, however, nothing to stop anyone from making available a Desktop-style app that once installed enables the Widget Bar and puts that Start Menu thing on it.

JorgeA

Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:13 PM

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OEMs can't include something that is basically a Start Screen (previously Metro screen) replacement... aka some method of launching multiple apps, which is what Start Screen is meant to do. In addition, OEMs can't enable the Widget Bar. There is, however, nothing to stop anyone from making available a Desktop-style app that once installed enables the Widget Bar and puts that Start Menu thing on it.

So, the difference is that Samsung or Dell couldn't provide it pre-installed on their PCs, but a third party could offer it over the Web. (I guess it couldn't be sold via the Windows Store, eh? )

How about if among the pre-installed features and trial software that OEMs put on the desktop, they were to put an "offer" for a Start Menu replacement? Or maybe that's what you had in mind...

This is great, MagicAndre -- a vast improvement over the previous version of Start8. It seems to be now an all-in-one "avoid Metro" package that includes 1) a regular Start Menu, 2) a Start Button, and 3) the ability to boot to the Desktop.

Thanks for reporting it.

Now, if someone were to devise a way to install Themes or Skin Packs on Windows 8 that are more interesting than the crude flat look that MS has decreed. Been looking for this all over the 'Net, and mostly I see promises, complaints, and frustration over Win8 from skin-pack developers.

JorgeA

Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:32 PM

Apropos of the recurrent discussion in this thread about the dangers of the Cloud, data syncing, and cybersecurity/privacy, we have this "epic hack".

The writer played his part in his own digital destruction, but the point remains that if even a supposedly savvy tech writer can fall victim to this sort of thing, what does that imply for the hundreds of millions of users out there who are less sophisticated than him?

Windows 8 is intended to be the most cloud-friendly OS from Microsoft to date -- no, thanks!

I am already getting heart attacks unless fans reassure me that Classic Shell is still the best. I still believe it is but I am not sure others see it that way so I have entered depression. Start8 has file search (although crappily done), jump lists, ability to launch Metro apps and highlighting of new programs. And Start8 shows Windows' MRU list of programs, not its own. I envy it!