But please take into account that they wind companies aren't killing the same number of birds. They're killing about 440,000 birds (a year). Only 15,714 times as many. What's the big deal? Have you no sense of proportion?

Isn't there some proposition — kind of like the "big lie" — that if you want to get away with something, doing it on a vast scale is a good strategy? There's some aphorism or famous quote that's just beyond my grasp, even using Google.

It sounds like a version of the 'death of an individual is a tragegy, death of a million is a statistic' idea. That doesn't have the flavor of using the large number to disguise the activity (the 'wanting to get away with it' part of Ann's query), but it offers instead the substitute that, when something happens on such a vast scale, people stop noticing it.

After reading the short translation from Mein Kampf at Wiki, I have to say this Hitler guy is a pretty astute writer. Does he have a newsletter or blog. I'd swear I saw him comment here more than once.

"The U.S. Attorney for North Dakota hauled seven oil and natural gas companies into federal court for killing 28 migratory birds that were found dead near oil waste lagoons. You may not be surprised to learn that the Administration isn't prosecuting wind companies for similar offenses."

I think the difference between the two isn’t just the number of migratory birds but that an oil waste lagoon could be a source of human health and environmental problems – particularly if it leads to contaminating the water table – while the blades on the wind mill aren’t.

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) The U.S. Attorney for North Dakota hauled seven oil and natural gas companies into federal court for killing 28 migratory birds that were found dead near oil waste lagoons. You may not be surprised to learn that the Administration isn't prosecuting wind companies for similar offenses Then wouldn’t we be charging them with THAT, rather than dead birds?

This is what your vote wrought, Ann. This is the way it is? You voted for an anti-energy clown, in effect, a luddite, that views oil as an evil substance. Considering the fact that you also voted for an economic simpleton who hasn't the first idea of the origination of the economy in this country if not the world starts with the letter O and comes from the ground. Oil and Ore. You cannot do anything in this world without either in this economy. He wishes to see them both remain buried. Thank Ann.

"It sounds like a version of the 'death of an individual is a tragegy, death of a million is a statistic' idea."

The death of 28 birds is a tragedy. The death of 440,000 birds is a statistic.

But that quote I know. I was looking for something like... I remember maybe Donald Trump saying something like: if you want to get away with borrowing money that you can't pay back, borrow a billion dollars. Or if you want to get away with cheating on your taxes, don't cheat for $100. Those are the people who get caught. Cheat for a million dollars... etc. etc. Something like that.

I think the difference between the two isn’t just the number of migratory birds but that an oil waste lagoon could be a source of human health and environmental problems – particularly if it leads to contaminating the water table – while the blades on the wind mill aren’t.

Then the charges and actions would be different. It would be regarding EPA regulations, ground water protection, not BIRDS.

Joseph Goebbels often is "credited" with saying something like "The bigger the lie, the more likely it will be believed," but I understand this is a sloppy paraphrase of a more substantive, and likely more sinister, point.

While certainly still less than in oil and gas production, there are significant and growing risks to humans from wind turbines too:

Summary of Wind Turbine Incidents (December 2008): • 41 Worker Fatalities, 16 Public- Includes falling from turbine towers. • 39 Incidents of Blade Failure- Failed blades have been known to travel over a quarter mile, killing any unfortunate bystanders within its path of destruction. • 110 Incidents of Fire- When a wind turbine fire occurs, local fire departments can do little but watch due to the 30-story height of these turbine units. The falling debris are then carried across the distance and cause new fires. • 60 Incidents of Structural Failure- As turbines become more prevalent, these breakages will become more common in public areas, thereby causing more deaths and dismemberment’s from falling debris. • 24 incidents of "hurling ice”- Ice forms on these giant blades and is reportedly hurled at deathly speeds in all directions. Author reports that some 880 ice incidents of this nature have occurred over Germany’s 13-years of harnessing wind power.Source: Treehugger

It would be interesting to see the comparison to other fuel types on an injury per kW basis. But with oil and gas going to so many uses, even that wouldn't be fair.

wv: redowf. Wow, that brought back a long-lost memory of the Red Wolf comic book series of the 70s. Anybody else remember that? Used to love it as a kid! Probably banned from the marketplace by the PC police these days.

There has been some efforts to hold the wind-energy companies liable for the raptors' deaths,as at Altamont. Maybe the DoJ will follow suit--but the suggestion that somehow all demos are implicated--typical Althouse bullshit, as is the idea that all wind-energy is run by lib-ralls. PGE is not a progressive organization.

but the suggestion that somehow all demos are implicated--typical Althouse bullshit, as is the idea that all wind-energy is run by lib-ralls. PGE is not a progressive organization.

Is that like all wicca being trash or all klan members being zionists? How about...utjudicialrewiccasatan...well, frankly you've got me stumped on that one, but you DID delete the posting afterward so even YOU must have had a moment with enough clarity to realize you'd dozed off while typing.

Come on. Call me squat and a meth tweaker, or some version of morman statanist.

Small Pathetic jew aka Joejo--yr the dimwit here- .Like not knowing the E of the military pay scale = Enlisted. Dumbass all the way. Many other examples can be provided (e.g. unaware that the Fed. govt mandated pollution policies,etc, and thinking it was due to competition. hah) . But yr not only a dimwit--but a corrupt, venal dimwit like most in...your temple.

Garage. One of the problems with wind turbines is they whack a lot of birds. Birds of prey in particular. This is not new to those who either love birds or love wind power and keep up with the controversy which has gone on for decades. Wind turbines kill lots and lota of birds which is very inconvenient for environmentalists who are confounded that their sacred beliefs are often very detrimental to other living creatures. Windmills also ofend Kennedys whose views across the bay are marred by their presence. But the wind good movement trumps the birds good movement. And all forms of energy are better than oil which is trumped by everything but coal.

Come on Scott, The Small Pathetic Voice was very rational and cogent, by his/her usual standards, let’s don’t cause it to wander into incoherence, prematurely. It’ll get there soon enough…BTW, “utjudicialrewiccasatan”, really?

In the children's book 'Matilda,' by Roald Dahl the big lie comes into play. One of the kids says that parent's won't believe that the principal (i.e. Ms. Truchbull) is throwing children like she used to throw hammers in the Olympics. The reason given is that if you are going to do something bad, you do something so outrageous that nobody will believe it is true.

Matt 7:3-57:3 Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? 7:4 Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye.

particularly if it leads to contaminating the water table – while the blades on the wind mill aren’t.

True, but wind farms are more than turning blades. They require access roads, storage sheds, part boneyards and power transmission towers which are installed in pristine wilderness areas and watershed that anti-logging regs wouldn't allow in a nanosecond.

You can't have it one way for a given sector of energy production and another for so-called clean energy, which isn't so clean when you look at the collateral damage.

And the industry hasn't even begun to install solar plants in protected desert preserves such as the Mohave, which are much more fragile eco-systems.

We can't ride an ATV in the Mohave but it's peachy to cut roads and blast thru in trucks to cover hundreds of square of miles of desert with solar panels, collector towers,sheds, power transmission towers and junk. WTF?

Let me add, I am not a greenie or eco-wacko, but I do care about keeping open spaces for recreational use and to preserve some of the natural beauty around us, but most of this green BS pisses me off.

The greenies have stuffed prohibitions down our throats for 40 years until it suited their new agenda. It appears the only green these asshats care about is the color of money and the power it buys(no pun intended).

They're desperate these days. The tide of knowledge has turned fully against AGW and they've got to scramble. Lawsuits, Solyndra clones, off-limits designations, etc. all have to come in a rush before it's all over. Come 2013 we begin dismantling the anti-science edifice they've spent decades building.

There are functionally two types of ponds associated with a oil well. Both are equipped with liners on top of a packed clay base, with berms and secondary spill control areas.

The first is found during drilling operations and is used to recycle back into the drilling process the "drill mud" the lubricant used in driling. As the well goes down, you pump mud into the wellhead, some of which comes out and is recycled.

The second type of containment holds oil products. this oil is typically filtered and sold aas lower grade material.

both ponds are normally restored after drilling is complete and the production head valve is in place.

Wrong J. It's all over. The bullshit game of pointing at microscopic fluctuations in tiny time frames as evidence has been utterly and thoroughly upended. The next SecEd's first order of business should be to remove every bit of the EarthFirst propaganda curricula from our schools and demand a return to actual earth sciences. Bring back Huck Finn, boot Al Gore.

BTW - the article also states: "Wind farms currently kill far fewer birds than the estimated 100 million that fly into glass buildings, or up to 500 million killed yearly by cats. Power lines kill an estimated 10 million, and nearly 11 million are hit by automobiles, according to studies."

Which brings back the question, why the big to do over 28 birds? Thugocracy, political harassment, crony capitalism, corruption, etc.

We got it dialed in CA. The wind farms killed bats which equaled fewer pollinators for West Valley fruit orchards. Then they turned off the water to 250,000 acres of prime farm land to protect another species.

Problem solved. No bats, no fruit trees, no income, no jobs, massive waves of home foreclosures...oops!

But hey! We got 1% of the daily power requirement in green wind energy to power those vacant houses and lots of tiny Delta Smelt.

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) the article also states: "Wind farms currently kill far fewer birds than the estimated 100 million that fly into glass buildings, or up to 500 million killed yearly by cats. Power lines kill an estimated 10 million, and nearly 11 million are hit by automobiles, according to studies.

This merely lays the foundations for assaulting power companies, automobile manufacturers, and the building industry…they alone kill 121 million birds…and home owners, the responsible parties for those vicious felines, we need some kind of legal remedy to bring them and their avian mass murderers to heel!

See Joejoe likes to be beaten. Now teach that to yr white trash cronies, chandala.

The Wind-turbines are a success ,for the most part (tho still corporate). And reportedly pissing off some GOP pigs (a loss for the coal biz, for one). Now ,oink along with yr TP-GOP oil-coal barons ,Atards.

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew) The Wind-turbines are a success ,for the most part (tho still corporate.

By “success” do you mean they generate electricity at a rate equal to or LESS than a comparable coal or natural gas fired kilowatt hour or by “success” do you mean Chinese companies sell these things to gullible Americans/Brit’s and Germans, and the owners suck up government-funded subsidies?

The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany's loss in World War I on German Army officer Erich Ludendorff.

Yr the lowlife Shouting-Tweekflunkie--and yr the problem as are the rest of regs at Dyslexichouse

From Mental Health Matters: Neologism

In schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders, the invention of new "words" which are meaningful to the patient but meaningless to everyone else. To form the neologisms, the patient fuses together and combines syllables or other elements from existing words

Please get some help. Community mental health centers abound. Fees are on a sliding scale based on ability to pay. Many religious organizations, colleges/universities, United Way agencies, etc have low cost or free counseling and other mental health services. Sometimes a little medication does wonders.

Methadras said...This is what your vote wrought, Ann. This is the way it is? You voted for an anti-energy clown, in effect, a luddite, that views oil as an evil substance. ========================People forget how awful the alternative was. Besides stupider than Obama, and in agreement with 80% of what his dear Senate friend Obama was doing on Bailouts, trying to close GITMO...do not forget what side you beloved War Hero Who Suffered!! was on with energy.

1. A leader in the fight to close off ANWR.2. Along with Dems, the architect of offshore drilling bans for East and West Coast. Changed his position to help get the 2008 nomination. 3. War Hero Johnny was also bought off on Gore's "carbon cap & trade" scheme. A strong supporter.4. After the BP spill, Johnny was an enthusiastic backer of the Gulf Drilling Moratorium.5. McCain in 2008 said he would work to reduce carbon emissions 60 percent below 1990 levels by 2050. He has said he would commit $2 billion annually for 15 years to advance clean coal technology. (He hates coal less than Obama, but coal companies are longtime donors to the Hero Senator)6. McCain backed lavish solar and wind subsidies. Was part of the Solyndra bandwagon.7. John McCain and Enron.

Methedras forgets McCain was as big an anti-energy clown as Obama turned out to be. And just as corrupted by fatcat donors wanting Johnny to help them get rich off Green Schemes. The difference would be that if McCain had been elected, the Republican Party would be dead as a force and McCain and Pelosi would still be trotting out their "bipartisan solutions"

Cedarford wrote: do not forget what side you beloved War Hero Who Suffered!!

That particular meme you often repeat sounds just like J endlessly ranting about Romney's mormonism. It's like a big "who cares" to me. McCain did make a deal about his father and grandfather and their service. If you want to attack someone for no reason, why don't you start there?

For that matter, why are you silent on your beloved President's background? Could it be you find your vote for Obama increasingly indefensible?

While in California, in the 90s, my wife and I visited a windfarm out of curiosity. No one was around, so we did a "self-guided tour". It was snake heaven. My wife loves that stuff. So between taking pics of the tri-blades and bases, we had sticks to rake the grass and ground in front. Because in half an hour, we encountered 6 rattlesnakes (1 W diamondback, 3 S Pacific, 2 Mohave rattlers). Plus a couple of gopher snakes and 1 king snake. There was also skunk and raccoon sign, possibly rats.

What we quickly learned drew all those predators was the dead bird and bat kill. (And wounded. we mercy killed a bat on the ground with a broken wing, and saw a hobbled songbird limping past at a good speed).

One Mohave rattler still had bird feet sticking out of his mouth and 2 of the S Pacific ones and a gopher snake had "tweety bird" bulges.

I imagine the bird kill counts that dwell on "raptors" miss the many smaller birds and bats consumed within hours of hitting ground or at night when the skunks and raccoons and rats comb for what the snakes miss.

In our hikes in Cali, we never saw so many snakes as there.

The early wind farms were up in hilly or desert area and away from migratory bird paths. But I expect as the tax-subsidized windfarms grow, that many sited near waterways will produce an impressive migratory bird kill.

I also think that large solar farms out in the desert will have very bad effects on the desert ecology. And ruin the experience of hiking in what you would like to think is a natural setting, because you can see solar "farms" like Rancho Seco just about anywhere you are in its 80 square mile line of sight on a clear day from "preserved desert save sacred solar power projects". Environmentalists and conservationists agree...many have sued the government about "exciting green energy subsidies" and the various green entrepreneur sorts trying to set up on state and Fed land or private land sites that are an eyesore to other property owners or naturalists.

But the wind good movement trumps the birds good movement. And all forms of energy are better than oil which is trumped by everything but coal.

Where does nuklear (nuclear) energy fall in there? After all, Amerikan imperialists killed a lot of people of color with nuklcear bombs in WWII. (Ok, at least in some places now, Japanese are now considered White...)

I would think that nuclear energy would fall between oil/gas and coal in their view.

Don't forget the bats. Those windmills kill lots of bats.

But bats are mammals, and so don't qualify for as much sympathy or protection as do birds, reptiles, or fish.

Cedarford wrote: do not forget what side you beloved War Hero Who Suffered!!

That particular meme you often repeat sounds just like J endlessly ranting about Romney's mormonism. It's like a big "who cares" to me. McCain did make a deal about his father and grandfather and their service. If you want to attack someone for no reason, why don't you start there?

=============The only reason is no politician has leveraged his experience in Vietnam to greater self-promotion effect than McCain. Not even Kerry.He was an abysmal candidate and a treacherous Republican. The main reason he was nominee and elected Senator in AZ was his able use of his "Suffering War Hero" bit. The military started trying to get rid of him back when he was a LT Commander, as a mediocre pilot and officer.

How the poor birds suffer; we should at least kill cats to save some of them.According to Leslie Evans Ogden, "The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services (FWS) estimates that at least 4 million to 5 million birds are killed annually in communication tower collisions in the United States" Add this to the estimated 98 million birds killed annually by collisions with glass windows, especially those of tall office buildings, and it becomes clear that tall structures pose a very real threat to bird populations. (1)

"All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true within itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation."

There is a 19th century poem about Napoleon whose details I don't remember, but it ends with a boy saying to his father, words to the effect, that if I ever decide to kill anyone, I will make sure to kill lots of people. I can then get away with it and be thought a great man.

"Are birds all blind or what?"~"They hit them at night when they're migrating."~~Well then there should be a law requiring headlights and helmets on all birds. And start handing out FUIs (Flying Under the Influence) I see this as a bipartisan issue that would skate through.

Something I learned while driving a truck (we don't have wind farms here) is that often, individual mills are shut down. I suspect to keep the price of electricity artificially high. Has a study ever been done about that?

@Garage Been over most of the lower 48, Wisconsin is very nice. Almost equal to my home state. Your winters are brutal though. I call it "white hell" and if I never see snow again I'll be happy. And I used to LOVE snow.

As far as people being nice, the people of Spanish Fork Utah win hands down (from personal experience)

It's the same thing as a stormwater lagoon by a parking lot. It is designed to catch contaminated water so it can be cleaned up. These lagoons are lined so the contaminates don't seep into the soil. Essentially, the oil companies are being punished for being good stewards of their drilling sites.

In the real world, the companies would simply be told to put a net over the top of their lagoons.

"And ruin the experience of hiking in what you would like to think is a natural setting, because you can see solar "farms" like Rancho Seco just about anywhere you are in its 80 square mile line of sight on a clear day from "preserved desert save sacred solar power projects".

Some of the finest rolling prairie views in the nation are at Buffalo Ridge in SW Minnesota. Those views are now dominated by thousands of windmills. It is an impressive site from a machine point of view, but truly is sad from a natural one.

The worst part of the Altamont Pass wind farm debacle is that it was originally conceived as a tax shelter, not a "green" energy project. Silicon Valley had a lot of profits to shelter and political muscle.

The project was designed to lose money that is why the build-out took place so fast and without much regard for the environment.

In the late 70's thru mid-80's we were offered several "opportunities" to invest. We drove out, got the tour and had a look for ourselves. We passed.

In the children's book 'Matilda,' by Roald Dahl the big lie comes into play. One of the kids says that parent's won't believe that the principal (i.e. Ms. Truchbull) is throwing children like she used to throw hammers in the Olympics. The reason given is that if you are going to do something bad, you do something so outrageous that nobody will believe it is true.

Tiger Woods didn't go far enough. In the case of Gene Simmons, most people don't believe he fucked over 5000 women.

Tobacco giant Philip Morris is suing the Australian government over a new law making plain packaging mandatory for cigarettes from December 2012.Houses for Sale in Oakvillefrisør frognerAustralia's parliament has passed legislation that means all tobacco will need to be sold in plain olive-brown packets with graphic health warnings.