C&R eligible guns

gpostal
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 983
(10/27/01 2:18:53 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have downloaded the list of C&R eligible guns and it isn't very long ,and I know some guns that are C&R eligible are not on the list, I was wondering if you guys could post some of the guns that you know are eligible but are not on the list ? even if they a nfa weapons

thanks
postal

Bob In St Louis
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1228
(10/27/01 3:27:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any firearm that you can document is 50 years old or older is C&R. If it was made prior to 1898, it is an antique.
Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

gpostal
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 985
(10/27/01 6:18:13 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have that one and a few others ,some of the guns on the list are current as 1985 production

polishshooter
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 2021
(10/27/01 11:42:14 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The guns HAVE to be on the list to be eligible...or 50 years old IF non-military....

Military stuff has to be prior to 1946, AND issued, that's the kicker, they did that on purpose so AKs will NEVER be on it...otherwise they must be SPECIFICALLY listed, on a case by case basis, based on "collectibility." (i.e., Dragunovs, Makarovs, Russian and Romanian SKSs that are under 50...) There are some FN marked Mausers from 1950's which are NOT CR, because not specifically issued...and they are NOT on the list...

"New" guns that are CR are usually one of a kinds, commemortives, etc, sometimes they go so far as to list specific SERIAL NUMBERS of specific guns!

Basically the NFA stuff is all WWII and before, or shortly after, ans they have two lists of those, NFA exempt from the transfer tax because of the collectibility, (usually the old Winchesters and Marlins and stuff with factory barrels under 16",) and NFA stuff that are CR, but are still subject to NFA, like Ma Deuces and stuff, but I never figured out the advantage of having them CR, except maybe I can have Bazookas shipped to me UPS, THAT should raise eyebrows!

All military 1911s and A1s are CR, because none have been made for the military, believe it or not, after 1945...even any in the Army's inventory today will be 45 or earlier...we haven't bought any new for issue since then.

To throw a wrench into it...the Polish Tokarev T-33s currently on the Market are NOT CR, but Russian ones are for any date. BUT, SOG and others ARE selling ones marked 1950 and 1951 as CR, because over 50, BUT...I don't understand exactly how they can do it, they ARE military....using that logic, next year we can buy 1952's, 1953's in 2003,etc, right?

Go figure...

And BTW, GP, a little history, the ONLY reason ANY "modern" military stuff is on the CR list is because of then Senator Majority Leader Bob Dole pushing it through during the Reagan years, in the same bill that allowed military surplus guns to be imported and sold to collectors...the Dems fought him all the way, but agreed in the end as long as AKs would never be on it, which is why 1946 is the date.

I remember those debates...

We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

Where do you read this? There seems to be a lot of mis-information on this topic. Also, I can't find anything that says military firearms have to be manufactured prior to 1946 in the 2000 FFL regularions.

Here is a quote from a actual letter from the ATF on this very topic. Here's the relevant section, I don't feel like typing the whole letter, which is in graphic form.

"As set out in Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 178, S 178.11, the term "curio or relic" includes certain firearms or ammunition which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapon. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must:

(1) Have been manufactured as least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or

(2) Be certified by the curator of a municipal, Stare, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curio or relics of museum interest; or

(3) Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

ATF has previously determined that any firearm which was actually manufactured more than 50 years prior to the current date, automatically qualifies as a curio or relic and it is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in the ATF Firearms Curio & Relic List for it to be a curio or relic."

The letter is dated Dec 2, 1997, and is signed by Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch.

Edited by: AntiqueDr at: 10/28/01 10:22:04 am

gpostal
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 999
(10/28/01 10:17:24 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is what i am talking about ,i do know that a rem.870 with ten inch barrel {witness protection model} is a C&R gun but is NOT on the list ,[novel, rare, or bizarre,] this covers alot and is reall gray ,maybe even a usas or striker ,how rare is rare ,1 of 1,000 , 10,000

Bob In St Louis
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1234
(10/28/01 10:18:01 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said, anything you can document as being 50 plus years. I have a copy of the same letter John is referring to. Supposedly, Missouri has passed some regulations that allow clones of the 1911 pattern 45s to be C&R also - but I don't have the details on that.
Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

What does the second entry on the first page of SEC. II of the list "Firearms Classified as Curios Or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44" say?

"All ORIGINAL military bolt action and semi-automatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946."

And the THIRD entry?

"All PROPERLY MARKED and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used by, or mfd. for, any MILITARY ORGANIZATION prior to 1946..."

And the fourth?

"All shotguns, properly marked and identified as mfd. for any military organization prior to 1946 and in their original military configuration only."

THAT'S the kicker I'm talking about...AK-47s will NEVER be CR because of that....plus, like I said, I remember the debates! Metzenbaum (and the usual list of suspects from back then) was having fits that ANY military would be imported at all, much less categorized as "collector's items..."

Trust me, your letter and the fact it was 1950 did NOT get me my .30-06 FN Mauser earlier this year...and I tried...ATF said it was military, but not meeting all criteria for MILITARY CRs....

I like you will fall back on the letter in any argument, but I GUARANTEE they did NOT have "Military" in mind when they wrote the letter!

And if you are going to be nailed for it, do you think they will follow the "letter" from some functionary, or "the letter of the law" as printed?

If it's Military, made after 1946, it had better be SPECIFICALLY listed...period.

Notice the military stuff on the 2000 list that is not on the 1997 list...using your logic, why change the list if "50 years old" was the ONLY criteria?

I agree, 50 is the magic number for COMMERCIAL guns, but not military....

We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

Edited by: polishshooter at: 10/28/01 12:12:01 pm

gpostal
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1008
(10/28/01 12:21:49 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well what i was wanting from you guys is guns that are NOT on the list and are still C&R ,i did see S&W model 39 and baby brownings ,they are on the list for some reason ,armilite ar-15 is on the list also ,does this mean a post ban armilite ar is C&R ?

polishshooter
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 2033
(10/28/01 12:43:24 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GP. I would assume the 10" Witness Protection to NOT be CR unless specifically on the list...on the OTHER hand, it looks like something somebody would want to submit to the ATF for a ruling, like is called for...the only PROBLEM being the process for doing it kinda sucks, and traps you having bought it under full NFA rules, legally, if they say "no."

But then again, the transfer tax and NFA registration for it is only $5, isn't it? Not $200 like select fire and automatic stuff....
We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

I don't think I'd try them on this one though....
We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

gpostal
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1009
(10/28/01 9:02:34 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok first I am not intentionally trying to be difficult or stupid for that matter I will try to work my way from the top

bob says {documented 50 years or older} easy to go by

polish says {documented 50 years or older as long as it is not military then military cut off date is 1946 } since ak47 hit the military in 1947 ,again understandable
,BUT the armilite ar15 even colt ar15 marked armilite wasn't in production in 1946 even 1947 for that matter ,and it says armilite ar15 no specified date or serial number

I will contact armilite and post their reply to this

----------------------------------------------------------
now the witness protection
a company close to bob's house { c&s metalwork's} sells nfa weapons ,you must have a c&r to purchase the witness protection and yes the stamp is 200.00

----------------------------------------------------------

I knew the 50 year old rule and the 1946 rule when I started this thread ,I also have the complete list {all three locations} printed out and cant find any sks's on it

The Armalite obviously was submitted to the ATF and accepted, because there weren't many made before the Army adopted them, and obviously, say one that the AF adopted in the early 60s, or a prototype from the late 50s would have beaucoup collector's interest, as well as the few with bolt Colt and Armalite stamps.

Remember, if its POST '46, BUT determined by the ATF to be any of the OTHER stuff listed above, collectible for other reasons than shooting, such as rarity, etc, it CAN be added later by the ATF...

For example, the EG and Soviet Makarov pistols were all post 46, BUT they are collectors I'd guess because there is no more USSR, or East Germany...there IS still a Bulgaria, so Bulgarian Maks are still available, so I'd guess that's why they are not "collectible...", as are Chicom Type 56s.

While I do not see the "Witness Protection" on the CR list, maybe the company submitted one, and got the ATF to agree, if so they'd have a letter of a specific ruling on it...there's a procedure to have new stuff listed that are not currently CR, and you are buying it in good faith if the seller says it is I guess...Bob and I had a discussion on Star Bs one time, SOG was selling them as CR, nobody else was...I asked AIM if they were, was told they were "still waiting for theircopy of the official ruling."

This whole damn "list" business is a FINE example on how governmental bureaucracies can screw up a simple concept...
We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

Bob In St Louis
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1241
(10/29/01 8:16:04 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Star B pistols were listed as C&R and SOG and several others are selling them as such, however, the Star Super B pistols are not listed as C&R - SOG currently has a bunch of Star Super B pistols, manufactured in 1947, new in the box! I want one so bad I can taste it (uuummmmm - cosmoline!)
Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

First, I could have SWORN I saw Star Bs on the new list, but can't find them. Then I noticed Eibars aren't listed....

THEN, I went back to the 97 list and couldn't even find Eibars on IT. Now I just KNOW Eibars were listed, kind of a generic listing, at least on my original list.

What the hell happened? Am I going blind, or do these damn lists change by THEMSELVES on the darn BOOKSHELF??????
We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

RobC in Missouri
Member
Posts: 35
(10/29/01 12:10:01 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, since I was the one who wrote ATF about the 50 year rule and received that response that has been spread far and wide across the net, I think the letter is clear and the regs are clear.

Every firearm, commercial or military, that was manufactured 50 or more years ago, is automatically C&R and does not have to be specifically listed for it to be so. Granted, in my original letter to them I did not specifically say military or commercial, but I did use the term "all firearms" which should cover both.

So yes, a Polish Tokarev manufactured in 1950 would be C&R, but one made in 1952 would not - it will, however, become one in 2002.

Firearms that are specifically listed were likely done so after someone asked for a determination - the Romanian SKS, for example, and the upcoming Yugo SKS.

The catch-all "1899-1946" categories became obsolete after 1996 (50 year rule). They remain on the list because ATF doesn't have the authority to remove anything from the C&R list.

Almost every FFL I've encountered subscribe to this belief, both dealers & C&Rs, including some "big names" - Dennis Kroh of Empire Arms, Thompson Knox, president of the NAPCA, Tom Heller, Adam Firestone of cruffler.com....

BTW, Bob in St. Louis, the Star Super Bs that they have listed with a 1947 manufacture date - that's actually the date of the manual, not the gun's date. My guess is that SOG won't go by proof codes to determine the actual manufacture date. They need to reword their ad copy to make it more clear.

RobC in Missouri

polishshooter
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 2061
(10/30/01 10:28:39 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: C&R eligible guns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob, isn't another reason for the list is to provide proof some guns that are NOT easy to research manufacture dates, or do not have dates stamped on them are CRs?

It's all well and good to say "50 years old or older," but the SELLER must be sure it is before selling it as a CR, right?

I mean, technically if I BOUGHT a non-CR as a CR, the SELLER is the one in trouble, right? If he represented it as such?

Many old guns do NOT have a serial number or date, and many old manufacturers do NOT have good records, or even records available. And lots of collectors specialize, so we know THOSE dates, but may not have the time or inclination to research one we don't usually collect, so we have to refer to the list.

Once I saw a Bulgarian Makarov listed on Auction Arms from a private seller as available to CRFFLs. I KNOW they are not, so I sent him an E-mail just asking if he was SURE.

He told me he was told by the dealer he bought it from that it was, but then I noticed he edited out the CRFFL.

If I would have bid, and sent my CRFFL as he originally posted, and he shipped it to me, who actually violated the law?

I'm not being facetious, I actually CONSIDERED doing it, it was a good price, but I thought I'd better not, since I KNEW it wasn't....but I'm sure somebody else might have, whether they knew it or not.
We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

As far as the list being a guide to what is and is not C&R - yes, if can function as that. In fact, the letter from ATF, while stating that everything over 50 is C&R, goes on to advise a person dealing with a gun that is questionable in status to contact ATF and ask them - they didn't say you had to ask for an official determination, but that a lot of reference material has the wrong info regarding dates of manufacture, and they could tell you for sure whether it was C&R or not. I don't know exactly how they would do it, but they say they can.

Guns without a serial number? Unless it's a known fact that that particular model was last manufactured over 50 years ago, or if it's specifically listed, then there is really no way to precisely determine the date of manufacture. A couple of examples: The Winchester Model 55 .22 rifle - they weren't serial numbered, but they were specifically listed, so they're all C&R. Many non-serial numbered Mossberg rifles whose production run ended more than 50 years ago, while not specifically listed, are C&R. However, a Mossberg M46 (I think) had a production run that ended in 1952; while the odds are that it's over 50, there's no way to prove it without a serial number, so it should be considered non-C&R (until after 2002, when they all will be over 50). One could make a case as for the different variations (a), (b), (c), (d), and note when the changes occurred, but that may be pushing things.

As far as who is responsible that a gun is C&R during a transaction - good question, and one I haven't really seen the answer for. I know of instances where a distributor has sold non-C&R guns to C&Rs (i.e. the 7.62 Ishapore Enfields manufactured after 1965 or thereabouts - it's specifically listed), but I don't know who is liable. It could be an honest mistake by the seller (not checking dates) and therefore the buyer wouldn't have known, but it's still against the law.

Another distributor was selling those 5-shot Romanian .22 trainers as C&R, even though they're not on the list and were manufactured as late as the 1980s. In that case, I would think the buyer should know that they weren't C&R and shouldn't order them, but again, who is legally liable?