JB, what I think median is saying, in a very erudite way, is that your position on god, the afterlife, etc is derived from emotion, how you feel, rather than from rationality or research. For example, you have said many times that it helps you in your life to believe in god, and that your ideas about an afterlife give you hope and solace during hard times. This is all about feelings, not research.

This is the same as saying that it helps football players win games if they pray to god before going out onto the field. If both teams pray, god still only helps one to win. We know that one team will win and one will lose, so praying will only "help" one team to win. I hope you understand that praying to or believing in god does not make any real difference in which team wins the football game. No matter how strongly the players feel about god.

Likewise, praying or believing in god does not help a country win a war or avoid a natural disaster or recover from a recession. Believing in god does not help people get jobs or survive a plane crash or recover from an operation. Believing in god does not help in any real way, or else we would clearly see the difference in the lives of god-believers. After thousands of years, there should be mountains of evidence in favor of god if belief was helpful. But there is none. We keep asking people for evidence of god and they can't show us any.

How long would you believe a friend who said they had a fancy new car if they could never show it to you? Years go by and they keep bumming rides, taking cabs and riding the bus, while telling you all about their wonderful new car. Wouldn't you start to think that they did not really have the car? Where is the evidence of the car? you would ask. Not even a photo of the car with them in it, no car title or insurance card with their name on it. Probably they don't have a new car. We think the same thing about all the folks who keep telling us about their wonderful, invisible god....

The lives of god-believers are not better than the lives of atheists. Often the lives of god-believers are much, much worse. That is what the statistics on health, income, education, etc show. Doesn't the emphasis on a better afterlife make the most sense for people whose earthly lives suck? Doesn't that seem like a way to make people feel better when their prayers to god for help go unanswered?

The fact that you feel like god is helping you does not make it true. That is why we keep asking you for your evidence that god is real, research that you have done on the afterlife, etc. But you keep giving us descriptions of how you feel. Feelings are remarkably inaccurate as measures of whether something is true or not. That is why con artists and charlatans are able to rip people off.

Teenagers believe they are in love with pop stars who they have never met. It makes the teenager very happy to believe that the love shared with the pop star is real. The pop star does not know the teen exists, and the teen has never actually met the pop star. The pop star could be an a$$hole who hates teenagers in real life. If the teenager was going to drop out of school and move to the state where the pop star lives, this would clearly be an irrational decision. Despite the feelings the teen has, no facts support the idea that the pop star loves the teen. Likewise, no facts support the idea that there is a god who loves people. Just feelings.

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Yes it is research. If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that. My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

People shouldn't pray over football.

Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual.

There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it?

I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

This all reminds me of watching a plane wreck, and the NTSB investigation being conducted by the Keystone Cops. Morbid enough so I can't look away, and hilariously amusing in a slap-stick sort of funny.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Yes it is research. If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that. My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

People shouldn't pray over football.

Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual.

There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it?

I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

I know I am going to be smited, probably heavily for this, but I'm probably of the rare few who would actually say this and not feel bad about it afterward: to your last line: I really wished you would've then we wouldn't have to read your incessant whining everyday.

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Hasn't this been dismissed before?...

I recall this being one of the usual arguments from theists.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

You are here because your parents had sex - that's how mammals procreate. Nothing particularly mysterious about it. So are the rest of us. Earth is just one planet among countless others scattered across the universe. God went to all that effort to create an entire universe full of planters, stars, asteroids, meteors, black holes, and all the other stuff I'm not qualified to speak of, for the sole purpose of populating one planet with entities that could worship him? You, me and Earth are evidence that we exist - they are not evidence of a god. This is yet another thing you do not understand. Evidence that supports your explanation - because your position could just as easily be satisfied by any other god who has ever been propose by anyone, ever, in the entire history of the universe.

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Yes it is research.

No, it's not. Research does not involve checking in on your feelings, it involves studying empirical evidence. EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE has nothing to do with feelings, emotions, or opinions. But go right ahead and keep saying it is - because you've already said you didn't come here to learn anything.

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If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that. My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

God can only do what you ALLOW?

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People shouldn't pray over football.

For someone who doesn't follow a religion, you sure come up with a lot of rules about how one should conduct their lives in relation to god. Sounds a lot like religion, doesn't it?

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Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual.

And I bet none of them suggest spending time arguing with atheists in a fight you will never win because your logic is flawed.

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There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it?

No there are not mountains everywhere (most of the central US does not have mountains for instance) and I don't know what point you are trying to make.

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I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

What you chose to do as a child with a limited understanding of the world is based on the reasoning abilities of a child. How you conduct your adult life should be based on the reasoning abilities of an adult. I'm sorry you had a difficult childhood. Many of us did as well, and got through it too. I don't let my childhood traumas direct my life as an adult - I accept the past as it is, and grow past the hurts. I have no interest whatsoever in dwelling on what can't be changed, the past belongs in the past. If you are still as stuck there as you've been indicating lately, you should be seeking professional help rather than relying on strangers on the internet to help you work through it.

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Jb don't go back to this baking analogy again. I showed you it cannot work. Someone does not have blue eyes and blonde hair because they were destined to. People have the eye colour and hair colour which they have, just because of the pure chance that their parents met.

A better analogy you could use is to say that GOD STRUCK THE MATCH and watched the flames.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Earth/life does not tell anyone how it got here until you investigate - and no amount of your assumption/intuition is going to change that. Cakes are demonstrable and we have lots of examples of them being created by human beings. We do not, however, have lots of examples of universes, earths, or people being created by a 'God' deity thing. So your example is a False Analogy and begging the question (logical fallacies). If you have love for yourself, then you should be OK with being good to yourself by shedding irrational beliefs and holding rational ones (i.e. - you should value the truth and reality over fallacious arguments and intuitive assumptions and/or feelings).

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

This is your argument from ignorance fallacy.

But, you already knew that, because you've been shown it over and over again. Ad nauseum.

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Yes it is research. If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that. My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

And to that I say, it's a good thing you're not a research scientist.

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People shouldn't pray over football.

Why not? I love football! And you say love is the most important thing, right?

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When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

The evidence is me, you, and the earth. Conscience. Y'all consistently dismiss this as evidence but it is!!! If I bake a cake the cake is evidence that I baked it. Even if you can't see me there baking it somebody baked it and it wasn't santa claus.

Yes it is research. If I want to know will God comfort my spirit I have to allow that. My spirit was comforted and strengthened.

People shouldn't pray over football.

Seems funny to me that every book I've read on staying positive with cancer says to be spiritual.

There are mountains everywhere and there are valleys, not much different from life is it?

I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

JB, many people in the world, like you, have survived horrible situations. Some think that they survived because of their religious faith in Jehovah, Allah, Krishna or Yemanya. Others will swear that they survived because they sacrificed animals to the Vodun gods.

Do you think that their gods all helped these people survive? Does their survival mean that all the different religions they believe in are true?

I have been through some pretty bad sh!t in my life as well. Humans hurt me as well. I did not turn to any gods or supernatural beings. How do you think I survived?

Finally, JB, just because you think that love, or the earth or conscience are evidence of your god, that does not make it true. Those things could just as easily be evidence for the gods of Hinduism or Santeria. If you want to give evidence, you have to show how those things have to be the result of actions taken by your god and not Thor or Shango.

And why shouldn't people pray over football? It makes not a bit of difference if they do or don't. There is no god to take an interest in human prayers.

People used to think that earthquakes and volcanoes were caused by the gods they believed in. Now we know what causes them, and it is not supernatural. Likewise, we know that feelings like love or depression are caused by chemicals in the brain--scientists can identify the chemicals that make people feel one way or another. And we know how and why humans evolved to have these feelings. It is not supernatural.

People have survived cancer and other diseases by believing in Islam, Scientology and Rastafarianism. People have survived cancer without any spiritual or religious belief at all. Chances are very good that you will survive cancer by believing in your god of love. But before the 20th century, hardly anyone ever survived cancer no matter what they believed in. What does that tell you? What logical conclusion can you draw?

I would appreciate it a great deal if you would read this entire post without losing your temper. Please read it from beginning to end and pause for a deep breath whenever you catch yourself thinking about your feelings about what I’m saying. I want you to understand what I am saying, not what you think I’m saying.

You are setting yourself up to be a victim here. Pause, take a deep breath, then keep reading.

You have cancer. We know that. You have been making a lot of remarks about your difficult childhood in the last few weeks (noticeably more than before, to be clear). You have also been making a lot of remarks (from the beginning, again to be clear) about atheists claiming to be good without God, and expecting this forum to prove that to you. Breathe again please.

I’m not going quite so far as to say that you are being deliberately and knowingly manipulative (breathe), but I do think you are creating a situation that will fulfill your expectations, whether you realize it or not (and one more deep breath). Yes junebug, a really shitty thing has happened to you, and it’s rocked your world on every level – most of us are not disputing that in any way whatsoever (stop thinking about Nam and pay attention please). But our worlds have not been impacted in the same way, and the general forum is designed for debate, not comfort.

My opinion, based on certain posts of yours across several threads, is that you have placed this forum in the position of being your online cancer support group. (You probably ought to take another deep breath here just in case) That’s a perfectly valid expectation – after all you’ve been an active member for some time now and we’ve gotten to know you a little bit in that time. I can show you specific posts if you insist on it, but I’m pretty sure you know what I’m talking about – you are “playing the sympathy card” frequently.

You have set some standard of behavior, or accommodation even, that we are not meeting. That is an argument you are not going to win – the forum is not going to become your personal therapy site in any place outside of the specific area designated for exactly that. You can find the support you are seeking there and participate everywhere else as well, or you can just hang out in the comfort zone, but you need to stop mixing them up. I imagine another deep breath is in order right about now.

You’ve expressed admiration for LoriPinkAngel more than once, yet you’ve ignored her clear suggestions that you avoid the very behavior you are exhibiting. If you choose to participate in any of the general forum areas, you should fully expect to be held to the exact same standards as anyone else – you’re participating of your own volition, so it will be assumed that you are capable of handling your emotions as well.

You don’t get to be angry that we are not meeting some standard you’ve deemed appropriate that we didn’t agree to abide by. The general forum is a free-for-all provided everyone stays within the limits set out in the forum rules. The mods determine what is and is not acceptable, not your emotional state.

If Nam is being mean to you, put him on ignore and stop responding to his bait. If you think screwtape is repeating something you’ve already refuted, consider his words carefully – don’t just zip off the same response you’ve given already, think about the question a bit more, because he’s on the same point for a reason. If you’re being told that you are using a logical fallacy, and you bothered to read any of the information provided to you that explains why, and you still think the accusation is wrong, ask why for f*** sakes instead of just saying “no, it’s not” and changing the subject.

junebug, your experience here is up to you – help yourself make it a better one for you. The forum is not going to remake itself to accommodate you, so you need to figure out how to get what you need from what is available if you still plan to stay. You need to take responsibility for asking for what you need, and for accepting that you are not always going to get it. No one here owes anyone else a thing without their consent and the WWGHA general forum did not agree to this.

You are only a victim if you choose to be one. You can decide to make a single different choice at any time, and look for the outcomes of that different choice. Other people are not going to follow a script that you have running in your head – they don’t have a copy so they will improvise, and that does not make them the bad guy, it just means your unstated expectations were not met. It’s rarely as personal as you want want to make it.

Do we really, Jag? I haven't read her "Cancer" topic, mainly because I'm a heartless sonofabitch when it comes to Junebug, but there I bet she's appreciative, accepting, perhaps even nice and coherent in the the things she says or replies to. She listens to the advice given, right? Her words may even sound quite intelligent.

Outside that topic she's the opposite. Does that make sense?

It's like she's pretending to be one thing one place and another elsewhere. That tells me 1. She's either lying about having Cancer or 2. She's schizophrenic.

I mean, of all places to be overtly emotional would be that topic. One little thing taken out of context, and she'd flip out like everywhere else on this website.

I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

I'm not Nogods, but..

I think you're not giving yourself enough credit. I posit that the one who got you through that is none other than yourself. One of those lowly humans that you don't seem to think very highly of.

I think that the most poisonous aspect of Christianity is the way that it diminishes and disparages the nature of being human. It tells us that we are "fallen", sinful, evil, weak, feeble minded, and generally incapable of accomplishing anything worthwhile on our own. It tells us that we are sheep in need of a shepherd, to whom we should surrender our will. Proper behavior must be dictated to us ("Thou shalt...", "Thou shalt not...) because actually explaining it to lowly sheep would, of course, be futile. We're told that we shouldn't question or try to understand God's tales and rules and "mysterious" ways, because that is beyond what our feeble sheep minds can comprehend. Just believe. And obey. Because that's the only way that us worthless, fallen, evil, stupid sheep can ever be good. And even then, we're not really very good. Just forgiven.

Regardless of whether there are gods, I reject that. Human is an amazing and wonderful thing to be. We are not inherently evil. We are not ugly. We are not a blight on the world. We are not powerless. We are not doomed. We are not incomprehending. We are not sheep.

So what ARE we then? As Carl Sagan put it, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." Think about that for a moment. We give the universe consciousness. And in the process, we also give it value, beauty, and purpose. The entire universe would have no value if there were no one to value it. It would have no beauty if there were no one to perceive it. It would have no purpose if there were no one to make use of it. What a profound and privileged position we occupy. We may not be alone in that position, and there may be someone or something out there that does it better than us, but it's still pretty awesome. Some claim that life without God would have no meaning. They're wrong. It isn't any god that gives life meaning. It's us.

The Bible does have some good bits in it. For example, it says that one should "love your neighbor as yourself". The second part of that, to love yourself, is the prerequisite. And to do that, you have to see yourself as worthy of being loved. You have to see yourself as a person, with all of the complexity and potential that entials. Not as a sinner. Not as a sheep.

I'm a bit late to the party and I've only read the first page of comments but here goes...

The use of historical figures in works of fiction is common practice, therefore, the historical inaccuracy of any events depicted in the bible doesn't affect the likelihood of Jesus' existence, or any other biblical character. The reverse is also true: if Jesus were proven to exist that is not proof of his divinity, nor does one accurately recorded event in the bible verify everything within its pages.

Junebug,You do not trust the bible but is there any religious text that you do trust? Could you write a religious text that you could trust? Or do you think that it is impossible for mankind to interpret the word of god and there will never be a true religion?Why do you believe that god loves you?

Do we really, Jag? I haven't read her "Cancer" topic, mainly because I'm a heartless sonofabitch when it comes to Junebug, but there I bet she's appreciative, accepting, perhaps even nice and coherent in the the things she says or replies to. She listens to the advice given, right? Her words may even sound quite intelligent.

You are being extremely insensitive and disrespectful, Nam. Even if you have suspicions they should remain your own. This is one case where believing and being wrong is better than disbelieving and being wrong.

I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

Nice to know that you are not dead and all.

But there are these things called psychiatrists and counseling, those seem to help more people than any god.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

I've got a question for you Nogods. When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

Nice to know that you are not dead and all.

But there are these things called psychiatrists and counseling, those seem to help more people than any god.

I know...But surely Junebug does not live in a place where the people who help you, make you feel worse.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe impossible things.""I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

... When I was alone wanting to disappear/vanish felt nothing but despair where else could I have gone? Humans were the ones hurting me. Should I have turned to humans? I'm telling you w/o God there I would have wept until I died!!!

Yourself. That is who you turned to. You turned to your idea of god. I turned to my inner warrior. Another friend turned to the comfort of being in nature. Others turn to family, friends or their pets. You can call it god, but others have similar feelings of finding strength seemingly out of nowhere, but the mind is a powerful thing. Meditation, fantasy, hypnotism, prayer, and many other approaches, all can easily achieve the same thing.

I have no doubt that you've found strength you didn't know you had. However, leaping to god as an explanation is not the way to find the truth. Comfort, perhaps, but truth? No. It is not enough to make that assumption.