Ah, that's good to know, and thanks for clarifying my misinformed argument. Assuming that Asada may not have garnered high GOE compared to Kim, what would you have given Asada in PCS and Kim respectively?

well in the short where they both skated as well as they could there was I think around 1.6 point difference in PCS, which probably would have been the same point difference the long if both skated cleanly. It takes a lot of small reasons why Yu-na pulled ahead but Kim basically had 6 triples, and 3 2A, while Mao only had 6 triples, and 1 2A... so Yu-na already had a 2 jump advantage than Mao because Mao didn't try a 3/3 or 3/3 Seq... which I'm sure she could have pulled a 3/3 Seq but for some reason it was overlooked

Its a rough estimate but she got a downgrade on her Flip which is around (3+ point difference ) points and single her Toe (4.40). so 7.40 points she lost plus lets say 1.5-2.00 + GOE on those jumps, 2-3 points increase in her PCS, I'm guesstimating her marks will be around 142 - 143.5 ish

Ah, I see...but why so low in the PCS scores compared to Kim? I read in a different thread that the PCS can be subjective? So even if Asada didn't get DG on her 3F and singled her toe, etc...would she still have enough in PCS to even come close to Kim?

Its a rough estimate but she got a downgrade on her Flip which is around (3+ point difference ) points and single her Toe (4.40). so 7.40 points she lost plus lets say 1.5-2.00 + GOE on those jumps, 2-3 points increase in her PCS, I'm guesstimating her marks will be around 142 - 143.5 ish

So basically, if Mao's going to be competitive, she needs the lutz and a 3-3? I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

Ah, I see...but why so low in the PCS scores compared to Kim? I read in a different thread that the PCS can be subjective? So even if Asada didn't get DG on her 3F and singled her toe, etc...would she still have enough in PCS to even come close to Kim?

short answer for the PCS difference.... Mao had bad choreo... there was not a lot of transitions and the music was just too heavy for such a light skater like Mao, If she had a stronger program like she did in 2008 and more speed I think the PCS difference would have been miniscule.

short answer for the PCS difference.... Mao had bad choreo... there was not a lot of transitions and the music was just too heavy for such a light skater like Mao, If she had a stronger program like she did in 2008 and more speed I think the PCS difference would have been miniscule.

What if they can't do triple axel out of footwork? What if they can't do 3-3? the 2A/3A option would let them do the 3A like 2A.
It gives them more options than the options you listed, thus put them at a disadvantage.

I guess we are in disagreement about what "disadvantage" means. The triple Axel ladies are not at a disadvantage compared to other skaters. So I guess the point is that they do not have as big an advantage as they would have if the rule were changed.

Originally Posted by hurrah

Someone else must have suggested this.

Yes, it was Flattfan that I was responding to in the second half of my post.

I did, however, say that 2a-2t-2l should not be allowed in a long program. Basically, what I'm saying is that the third double-axel (and additional double jumps that are attached to it) should not be allowed.

I think the ISU sort of leans in that direction, too. Last year they passed a new rule restricting the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three. (There is no limit on other double jumps -- you can do seven double toes as your seven jumping passes if you want to, as far as I know. This is to accomodate younger skaters who cannot do triples at all.)

Anyway, the reason the ISU cut down on double Axels was just what you said -- skaters were padding their programs with double Axels in lieu of harder jumps that they couldn't do. Skaters were doing double Axel/double Axel sequence, plus two solo double Axels.

However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.

The third jump enables a jumper to avoid a triple jump they're not good at and still get points equivalent to a triple jump---in fact, it gets more points than a triple jump: 6.9 rather than 5.0 if it's a triple-loop that's being avoided.

I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.

Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.

I think in order to be competitive she needs a real triple lutz. She does not necessarily need a 3/3. She used to do 3f/2t/2l. I also like to see her get the 3 sal, this is not a point getter jump, but it shows the judges that she is more versatile in the jump department. She definitely can learn from Evan if you can't beat them in the air, beat them on ice. I think she has the potential to do exceedingly well even level 4s in spirals, and spins.

Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.

No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.

No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.

I think she needs a lutz, not so much for a 3-3. Rachael Flatt was a top 10 point getter (for a single element) for doing a 3Z-2T. With all but two of the top ten doing a 3Z (many doing 2), I think Mao needs to bring that jump back first before worrying about a 3-3.

And yeah Tat is just not that great of a fit. Who is Daisuke's coach? He/she seems to being doing the right thing....despite not landing the quad, he did a great program technically and his non-jump elements just can't be beat (and I think he should've gotten the gold over Evan).

However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.

Oh, I see. Well, Yuna doesn't do two 3-3, so she's using it as a loophole then, I guess. It really is very CoP-smart.

Originally Posted by Mathman

I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.

Yes, your comparison is more accurate. It's still the case that the third double-axel in Yuna's case is being used to 'pad' her program.