News

Linton-on-Ouse school’s anger after fox hunt scare

PUPILS at a North Yorkshire primary school had to be kept indoors when a fox ran into the playground as a hunting party rode nearby.

The riders and hounds appeared in fields next to Linton-on-Ouse Primary School and children who had been preparing for their afternoon break were not allowed outside until teachers were sure the hunt had moved on, after the appearance of the wild animal and the dogs sparked safety concerns.

Head teacher Morag McLoughlin said the hunt should not have come so close to the school, with parents and children being told about what happened at an assembly the following day.

Fox-hunting is illegal, but one parent said he believed the hunters may have inadvertently “frightened” the animal and accused them of “arrogance”, saying it was lucky the children were not outside when the fox came on to the school grounds.

Mrs McLoughlin said she saw about four riders and a dozen hounds close to the Linton Woods Lane school just after 2pm last Thursday, while she was teaching.

She said: “Lots of hounds were running down the side of the field, so I went out and called for one of the riders to come towards me so I could ask them to move away.

“He didn’t and rode off in a different direction, and I was told horses and hounds had also been seen in a field behind the school and a fox had run across the front playground.

“The hunt did not come on to the school site, but we did not allow pupils out for their break until we knew all the hounds had gone, because children’s health and safety is paramount.

“We would have much preferred the hunt to keep away from this area.

“I’m sure they feel they are in control of their hounds, but that cannot be guaranteed.

“It can also bring up questions from children about what happens with hunting.”

Mrs McLoughlin said the school had not decided what further steps, if any, to take.

One parent, who did not wish to be named, said his son seemed “upset” when he was picked up from school that day, saying: “The sheer arrogance of carrying on a hunt when you enter a private estate appals me, but it really beggars belief they allowed it go on so close to a primary school.

“Children may have been at risk from a frightened, agitated wild animal.

“Two minutes later and they would have been in the playground when the fox passed by.”

It is not yet known which hunt was in the area at the time, with local hunts not responding when contacted by The Press.

Comments (42)

I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??

I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??smudge1

The school would be surrounded by a fence so the hounds and the riders would not enter..... If the children are upset and didn't understand what was happening they should have the events explained to them, along with how cows and sheep are slaughtered for food as this seems to be kept from children nowadays.

The school would be surrounded by a fence so the hounds and the riders would not enter..... If the children are upset and didn't understand what was happening they should have the events explained to them, along with how cows and sheep are slaughtered for food as this seems to be kept from children nowadays.Big Bad Wolf

Fox hunting is illegal and a banned so called sport, it is a joke why wasn't everyone arrested?

I am sure the police would straight down on me if i started killing everytime i took my dog for its daily walk.
Its humans that need culling not the animals

Fox hunting is illegal and a banned so called sport, it is a joke why wasn't everyone arrested?
I am sure the police would straight down on me if i started killing everytime i took my dog for its daily walk.
Its humans that need culling not the animalsclm058

News Flash! - Parents leave door open and dog wanders in, chews a child's face. Police and Social services involved as to why these parents allowed this to happen.

Next News Flash! - Parents leave door open and cat wanders in, scratches the child's face badly. Police and Social services involved as to why these parents allowed this to happen.

New News Flash! - Parents leave door open and Fox wanders in, bites babies finger. The Tory party call for the reintroduction of blood sports for fox hunting.

See the sinister irony

News Flash! - Parents leave door open and dog wanders in, chews a child's face. Police and Social services involved as to why these parents allowed this to happen.
Next News Flash! - Parents leave door open and cat wanders in, scratches the child's face badly. Police and Social services involved as to why these parents allowed this to happen.
New News Flash! - Parents leave door open and Fox wanders in, bites babies finger. The Tory party call for the reintroduction of blood sports for fox hunting.
See the sinister ironyHoofarted

Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch!

Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch!Expat Stella

I was once pedalling along a minor road near Bosssall, and came across a hunt that was spilling all over the area.
An arrogant Hooray Henry hunt leader told me...told me mark you....to stop until their horses and hounds had left. I told them that I only obeyed the instructions of police officers and then told him to get knotted.

I was once pedalling along a minor road near Bosssall, and came across a hunt that was spilling all over the area.
An arrogant Hooray Henry hunt leader told me...told me mark you....to stop until their horses and hounds had left. I told them that I only obeyed the instructions of police officers and then told him to get knotted.pedalling paul

Expat Stella wrote:
Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch!

Brilliant - nearly made me spill my gruel!

[quote][p][bold]Expat Stella[/bold] wrote:
Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch![/p][/quote]Brilliant - nearly made me spill my gruel!JHardacre

Expat Stella wrote:
Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch!

Brilliant - nearly made me spill my gruel!

Just about sums it for me!

[quote][p][bold]JHardacre[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Expat Stella[/bold] wrote:
Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch![/p][/quote]Brilliant - nearly made me spill my gruel![/p][/quote]Just about sums it for me!Aldo

Expat Stella wrote:
Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch!

Round of applause!!!!!!! What a great post and sums it up nicely.

I grew up in the country but my attitude is not backwards like a lot seems to be. The fox wouldn't have gone anywhere near the school if it hadn't of been for the hunt scaring it. The hunt who just happened, by complete coincidence, to be going along the same route as the fox!! Yeah right.

[quote][p][bold]Expat Stella[/bold] wrote:
Fox hunting is an efficient means of pest control that we can all learn from. For instance if I have a mouse in my home then I immediately don red velvet, get boozed up on sherry, chase it round the house blowing a trumpet, smash up my furniture, trespass next door, scare their children, smash up their furniture, hold a press conference apologising for my actions then watch the mouse escape to fight another day. Anyone who thinks that's not efficient is merely an ignorant 'townie'. Now if you'll excuse me I need to check up on some other traditional pursuits, like inspecting my childrens rickets and burning a suspected witch![/p][/quote]Round of applause!!!!!!! What a great post and sums it up nicely.
I grew up in the country but my attitude is not backwards like a lot seems to be. The fox wouldn't have gone anywhere near the school if it hadn't of been for the hunt scaring it. The hunt who just happened, by complete coincidence, to be going along the same route as the fox!! Yeah right.MrsHoney

pedalling paul wrote:
I was once pedalling along a minor road near Bosssall, and came across a hunt that was spilling all over the area.
An arrogant Hooray Henry hunt leader told me...told me mark you....to stop until their horses and hounds had left. I told them that I only obeyed the instructions of police officers and then told him to get knotted.

At which point I was half trampled to death and it took a surgeon 3 days to extract my bike pump from my ****

[quote][p][bold]pedalling paul [/bold] wrote:
I was once pedalling along a minor road near Bosssall, and came across a hunt that was spilling all over the area.
An arrogant Hooray Henry hunt leader told me...told me mark you....to stop until their horses and hounds had left. I told them that I only obeyed the instructions of police officers and then told him to get knotted.[/p][/quote]At which point I was half trampled to death and it took a surgeon 3 days to extract my bike pump from my ****capt spaulding

“The hunt did not come on to the school site, but we did not allow pupils out for their break until we knew all the hounds had gone, because children’s health and safety is paramount.

I'm no fan of fox hunting, but the quote above says quite a lot . As Head of a small primary school you are responsible for the children and your staff's safety whilst they are inside the grounds, the perceived danger remained outside the school grounds, the additional precautions you took over and above a 100 metre gap, the drag hunt being allowed to be there, trained, supervised hounds, no case history of a hound or a fox ever attacking a primary school child and a picket fence were well meaning but dramatic and certainly not worthy of newspaper attention.

[quote]
“The hunt did not come on to the school site, but we did not allow pupils out for their break until we knew all the hounds had gone, because children’s health and safety is paramount.
[/quote]
I'm no fan of fox hunting, but the quote above says quite a lot . As Head of a small primary school you are responsible for the children and your staff's safety whilst they are inside the grounds, the perceived danger remained outside the school grounds, the additional precautions you took over and above a 100 metre gap, the drag hunt being allowed to be there, trained, supervised hounds, no case history of a hound or a fox ever attacking a primary school child and a picket fence were well meaning but dramatic and certainly not worthy of newspaper attention.Pete the Brickie

“The hunt did not come on to the school site, but we did not allow pupils out for their break until we knew all the hounds had gone, because children’s health and safety is paramount.

I'm no fan of fox hunting, but the quote above says quite a lot . As Head of a small primary school you are responsible for the children and your staff's safety whilst they are inside the grounds, the perceived danger remained outside the school grounds, the additional precautions you took over and above a 100 metre gap, the drag hunt being allowed to be there, trained, supervised hounds, no case history of a hound or a fox ever attacking a primary school child and a picket fence were well meaning but dramatic and certainly not worthy of newspaper attention.

Dunno. What would you say if a licenced gun holder was seen with his weapon out hanging around the school gates where your kids go?

[quote][p][bold]Pete the Brickie[/bold] wrote:
[quote]
“The hunt did not come on to the school site, but we did not allow pupils out for their break until we knew all the hounds had gone, because children’s health and safety is paramount.
[/quote]
I'm no fan of fox hunting, but the quote above says quite a lot . As Head of a small primary school you are responsible for the children and your staff's safety whilst they are inside the grounds, the perceived danger remained outside the school grounds, the additional precautions you took over and above a 100 metre gap, the drag hunt being allowed to be there, trained, supervised hounds, no case history of a hound or a fox ever attacking a primary school child and a picket fence were well meaning but dramatic and certainly not worthy of newspaper attention.[/p][/quote]Dunno. What would you say if a licenced gun holder was seen with his weapon out hanging around the school gates where your kids go?Podlet

smudge1 wrote:
I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??

Moron! I just cant even be bothered with you, drive safely now.

[quote][p][bold]smudge1[/bold] wrote:
I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??[/p][/quote]Moron! I just cant even be bothered with you, drive safely now.alfie

They generally all ride onto land without permission because without proof of damage and witnesses it is a case of civil trespass which is nigh on impossible to prove. They are so embedded in rural culture, no one local is going to risk making a fuss for fear of reprisals, it's easier for the headteacher who doesn't have to live there to do so, and she can always move to another school if she starts having problems, something that most low paid rural inhabitants can't, who often rent homes from the landowner whose very hunt it is.

They generally all ride onto land without permission because without proof of damage and witnesses it is a case of civil trespass which is nigh on impossible to prove. They are so embedded in rural culture, no one local is going to risk making a fuss for fear of reprisals, it's easier for the headteacher who doesn't have to live there to do so, and she can always move to another school if she starts having problems, something that most low paid rural inhabitants can't, who often rent homes from the landowner whose very hunt it is.bob the builder

smudge1 wrote:
I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??

Poppycock.
If fox hunting were allowed, what difference would it have made in this situation?
Apart from, I suppose, the possibility of the teachers having to explain to the kids why grown men on horses allowed dogs to rip a fox to pieces before their eyes. As it was they could not allow this to be seen for fear of prosecution, and rightfully so.
~~~~And what are the 'other problems like it' that you mention? What 'other problems' are solved in this way?

[quote][p][bold]smudge1[/bold] wrote:
I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??[/p][/quote]Poppycock.
If fox hunting were allowed, what difference would it have made in this situation?
Apart from, I suppose, the possibility of the teachers having to explain to the kids why grown men on horses allowed dogs to rip a fox to pieces before their eyes. As it was they could not allow this to be seen for fear of prosecution, and rightfully so.
~~~~And what are the 'other problems like it' that you mention? What 'other problems' are solved in this way?Trespar Zagenstuz

some strange comments,, the proof from the comments and the report is a fox came through a school, the hunt carried on doing what it was doing,drag hunting! no foxes were ripped to death, no crimes committed, and it seems the hounds were not even bothered. no story really only to get comments like every other fox hunting story, usually going onto 100+ comments

perhaps the school should have used this opportunity for education, wether you agree or disagree on the hunting issue this was a missed opportunity for the school.

perhaps the head should be more concerned on the kids leaving the school and playing chicken across the road,, or the parents at drop off/pick up time who insist on parking as close as poss to the school...

some strange comments,, the proof from the comments and the report is a fox came through a school, the hunt carried on doing what it was doing,drag hunting! no foxes were ripped to death, no crimes committed, and it seems the hounds were not even bothered. no story really only to get comments like every other fox hunting story, usually going onto 100+ comments
perhaps the school should have used this opportunity for education, wether you agree or disagree on the hunting issue this was a missed opportunity for the school.
perhaps the head should be more concerned on the kids leaving the school and playing chicken across the road,, or the parents at drop off/pick up time who insist on parking as close as poss to the school...baileyuk

smudge1 wrote:
I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??

You assume hunting keeps the number of foxes down. Even protagonists deny this. It is not a means of controlling the fox population.

Expat Stella, great post

[quote][p][bold]smudge1[/bold] wrote:
I hope all the children had there little hands in there pockets as foxes like a finger of fudge.If they had kept fox hunting then this problem and others like it might not happen.Shall we ban poisoning rats next because its to cruel and then moan about an influx of rats ??[/p][/quote]You assume hunting keeps the number of foxes down. Even protagonists deny this. It is not a means of controlling the fox population.
Expat Stella, great postNoMorePlease

Pedalling Paul what was you doing in Bossal on your cycle did you get lost.You was breaking the country code. Give way at all times to horses.If the police was present you would have been arrested and your bike confiscated.

Pedalling Paul what was you doing in Bossal on your cycle did you get lost.You was breaking the country code. Give way at all times to horses.If the police was present you would have been arrested and your bike confiscated.hikerman

I can understand the school wanting to keep the children safe but surely there are fences etc. and the hunt party didn't go on to school land ?
Banning something that had been going on for hundreds of years was ridiculous
As for saying the children were scared, try educating them on the history of fox hunting and the ridiculousness of our government.

I can understand the school wanting to keep the children safe but surely there are fences etc. and the hunt party didn't go on to school land ?
Banning something that had been going on for hundreds of years was ridiculous
As for saying the children were scared, try educating them on the history of fox hunting and the ridiculousness of our government.Hollywood Star

clm058 wrote:
Have I got it wrong or are these people comiting a crime? if they are where are the police? maybe they are the police and magestrates

Old boys network I guess

[quote][p][bold]clm058[/bold] wrote:
Have I got it wrong or are these people comiting a crime? if they are where are the police? maybe they are the police and magestrates[/p][/quote]Old boys network I guessRogerGW

clm058 wrote:
Fox hunting is illegal and a banned so called sport, it is a joke why wasn't everyone arrested?

I am sure the police would straight down on me if i started killing everytime i took my dog for its daily walk.
Its humans that need culling not the animals

Spot on! I couldn't agree more.
I advocated 'hunting the hunters' and some self righteous whiny do-gooder 'reported' me to the press so I got a "warning". Shock horror. (NB memo to YEP: 'banning' a person from expressing their opinion will simply result in them re-registering with another email then picking up where they left off). Worked it out yet, YEP? Cogs starting to turn yet, hhmm?
Thought not.

[quote][p][bold]clm058[/bold] wrote:
Fox hunting is illegal and a banned so called sport, it is a joke why wasn't everyone arrested?
I am sure the police would straight down on me if i started killing everytime i took my dog for its daily walk.
Its humans that need culling not the animals[/p][/quote]Spot on! I couldn't agree more.
I advocated 'hunting the hunters' and some self righteous whiny do-gooder 'reported' me to the press so I got a "warning". Shock horror. (NB memo to YEP: 'banning' a person from expressing their opinion will simply result in them re-registering with another email then picking up where they left off). Worked it out yet, YEP? Cogs starting to turn yet, hhmm?
Thought not.deathwatch

These people dressed as clowns were committing a crime by engaging in fox hunting when they plainly know it is banned. They should be banned from charging over farmers fields trampling crops,frightening children and attacking livestock and pets. Fox hunting is disgusting and barbaric as are the morons involved in it.

These people dressed as clowns were committing a crime by engaging in fox hunting when they plainly know it is banned. They should be banned from charging over farmers fields trampling crops,frightening children and attacking livestock and pets. Fox hunting is disgusting and barbaric as are the morons involved in it.Aguila Pescadora

http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=4f4T1fI8G
MI This is the type of people at 80% of the 17thC "tradition".
Then, a good article stating the facts away from the Daily Fails "shock, horror" angle on the story.

http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=4f4T1fI8G
MI This is the type of people at 80% of the 17thC "tradition".
Then, a good article stating the facts away from the Daily Fails "shock, horror" angle on the story.MrChuckles

Over 100 people a week need hospital treatment every week for dog bites.

I wouldn't want a pack of excited dogs running close to my kids' school.

In fact laying a trail close to a school is almost as strange as laying one over a road as happened down south last week!

Over 100 people a week need hospital treatment every week for dog bites.
I wouldn't want a pack of excited dogs running close to my kids' school.
In fact laying a trail close to a school is almost as strange as laying one over a road as happened down south last week!twotonethomas

for those that are not aware drag hunting is allowed! which is what happened, a fox was possibly disturbed but the story clearly states the fox went off one way and not any of the hunting party or dogs pursued it. surely this is what the anti hunt brigade want? no laws were broken so why the need for police?

alot of small village schools welcome a visit from the hunts, my village school and playgroup do!

all this fox hunting is banned is ridiculous,
for those that are not aware drag hunting is allowed! which is what happened, a fox was possibly disturbed but the story clearly states the fox went off one way and not any of the hunting party or dogs pursued it. surely this is what the anti hunt brigade want? no laws were broken so why the need for police?
alot of small village schools welcome a visit from the hunts, my village school and playgroup do!baileyuk

for those that are not aware drag hunting is allowed! which is what happened, a fox was possibly disturbed but the story clearly states the fox went off one way and not any of the hunting party or dogs pursued it. surely this is what the anti hunt brigade want? no laws were broken so why the need for police?

alot of small village schools welcome a visit from the hunts, my village school and playgroup do!

Here Here !!!!

[quote][p][bold]baileyuk[/bold] wrote:
all this fox hunting is banned is ridiculous,
for those that are not aware drag hunting is allowed! which is what happened, a fox was possibly disturbed but the story clearly states the fox went off one way and not any of the hunting party or dogs pursued it. surely this is what the anti hunt brigade want? no laws were broken so why the need for police?
alot of small village schools welcome a visit from the hunts, my village school and playgroup do![/p][/quote]Here Here !!!!Hollywood Star

for those that are not aware drag hunting is allowed! which is what happened, a fox was possibly disturbed but the story clearly states the fox went off one way and not any of the hunting party or dogs pursued it. surely this is what the anti hunt brigade want? no laws were broken so why the need for police?

alot of small village schools welcome a visit from the hunts, my village school and playgroup do!

And which school and playgroup might they be?

[quote][p][bold]baileyuk[/bold] wrote:
all this fox hunting is banned is ridiculous,
for those that are not aware drag hunting is allowed! which is what happened, a fox was possibly disturbed but the story clearly states the fox went off one way and not any of the hunting party or dogs pursued it. surely this is what the anti hunt brigade want? no laws were broken so why the need for police?
alot of small village schools welcome a visit from the hunts, my village school and playgroup do![/p][/quote]And which school and playgroup might they be?twotonethomas

Veganfoxfaerie wrote:
I agree it was lucky the children were not out playing as the fox may have been scared back into the jaws of the hounds.

True.

They've learn't their first lesson of sabbing the b'stards. :)

[quote][p][bold]Veganfoxfaerie[/bold] wrote:
I agree it was lucky the children were not out playing as the fox may have been scared back into the jaws of the hounds.[/p][/quote]True.
They've learn't their first lesson of sabbing the b'stards. :)twotonethomas

baileyuk wrote:
here we go again the councillor reduces the debate to swearing and insults, well done twotone!!

So sorry, I didn't realise that those who enjoy watching animals ripped apart can be so upset by an ancient English word!

Although after the cruel farmer tried to get me to apologise for hurting his feelings in a planning meeting, I should have known better :)

[quote][p][bold]baileyuk[/bold] wrote:
here we go again the councillor reduces the debate to swearing and insults, well done twotone!![/p][/quote]So sorry, I didn't realise that those who enjoy watching animals ripped apart can be so upset by an ancient English word!
Although after the cruel farmer tried to get me to apologise for hurting his feelings in a planning meeting, I should have known better :)twotonethomas