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Basically its just an argument of tactics, but its been pointed out that this team is not the best team they could have put together.

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For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.

Say you fight a martial artist who has trained his entire life. When the fight begins, you pull out a gun and off his kneecap. You'd certainly win by doing this, but no-one would appreciate it much.

Sure, if you came for a good martial arts fight. Of course, the Hucks take a bit more of a "gloves-off" approach and have little interest in abiding by the rules of a structured martial arts competition. It's not the fight that makes them interesting; it's their motivations for fighting and relationships within themselves. So in that sense, I do appreciate them. You (and others) clearly don't. Ergo, we have ourselves 64 pages' worth of "rage at the Huckebein" in this thread and god only knows how many hundreds of pages in the thread before the split.

I'm sorry guys, but... Vivio uses some crazy ability to fight Nanoha and you call her a worthy opponent, but when the Huckebein use crazy abilities to fight the others you say they're cheating? Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

It's not like that, we aren't justify Vivio, after all she didn't even have full control of her actions(does that rings a bell to you guys?) and backed upo by a system that empowers her with an ancient Belkan armor and the power of an entire Mystical Warship, so yeah pretty much Vivio is cheating. But the real point is that Vivio really put Nanoha in very real danger of defeat/death by virtue of being more powerfull than her(well, sorta, the AMF is still into play, tough), Nanoha keep up raising Blaster levels just to avoid being crushed, finally at Blaster-3 they seem to be more or less matched, except for the Fact that Vivio has near limitless power while Nanoha is burning herself to pull off such kickass powers,and, at the end, she end up using her most devastating attack multiplied by 5, and sustain lasting consequences from the fight.

Nanoha wins, but not in the easy way you implied before. Now she wasn't able to defeat Tohma(her new toys got destroyed one-by-one), and the only lasting damage the boy sustains is his divider's broked blade courtesy of Subaru.

Quote:

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Basically its just an argument of tactics, but its been pointed out that this team is not the best team they could have put together.

Well, by this point the manga already stated that "fighting fair is for loosers", just like it was mentioned, the Hucks are not interested in proving themselves or defend their honor, they just want food/survive and don't give a damn about how they will accomplish that. As for the heroes, nearly all forms of heroism get subverted by this point:

*Tohma/Heroic Resolve: Failed against Veyron, despite managing to activate his armour Vyeron still beat the crap out of him.
*Signum/Knight In Shinning Armour: FAIL, honor and justice doesen't mean a thing in front of a reacted Eclipse Driver.
*Fate - Subaru - Erio/Let's get dangerous: Despite the new toys the Hucks fight them while giggling as usual.
*Hayate/Heroic Second Wind: Turned into a simple "Hope Spot" by Curren xDU.
*Nanoha/Super Prototype/Mid-Season Upgrade: While powerfull, the Fortress Mode didn't do a thing to Tohma and when the guy became serious it got reduced to a pile of scrap.

In contrast there are various "Big Damn Heroes" moments pulled succesffully by the heroes, but their first real uhm "victory" came when the remaining heroes gang up on Tohma(and with Lily's reaction that wasn't even confirmed yet). So yeah, the only way of winning here is to fight dirty tactics with more dirty tactics.

So there are martial arts tournaments where they use firearms? Or to use a more apt comparison, magic tournaments where they employ AMF Generators?

I kind of resent the implication that I'm bitching about great characters here if I do. Because I'm not.

Didn't mention a tournament, there's no honor in the match ups, just conflict, skirmishes

__________________

For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.

But the real point is that Vivio really put Nanoha in very real danger of defeat/death by virtue of being more powerfull than her

Isn't that exactly what the Huckebein are doing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

In contrast there are various "Big Damn Heroes" moments pulled succesffully by the heroes, but their first real uhm "victory" came when the remaining heroes gang up on Tohma(and with Lily's reaction that wasn't even confirmed yet). So yeah, the only way of winning here is to fight dirty tactics with more dirty tactics.

I don't know about you, but I appreciate an injection of realism in my fiction.

Except they aren't more pwoerfull, just have a method of cancelling opposition powers and none of them has showed anything more impressive than the previous seasons yet(save for Curren and Deville). They pose a treath, and are very deathly with their Eclipse powers but combat-wise they apparently are not that great. If not for the anti-magic, by this point the main cast would be able to pull a "Roy Mustang" on at least one of them. Even on equal conditions the Wolkies posed a treath to team Nanoha, but because of the virus "rules" an equal condition here will be imposible, just we need to see how Section Six will break the setting to defeat the hucks in a cheap way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I don't know about you, but I appreciate an injection of realism in my fiction.

What? I LIKE dirty tactics. More stabbing the old wound and twist the knife, more dirt thrown in the eyes, more misinformation, bringing the good guys into a building stuffed with explosives, yay dirty tactics. "Honorable" samurai duels is going to make scratch heads when the organization have the pretense to be slightly military. That overuse of "honorable" one on one duels is kind of shit that is only going to bring up more wallbangers.

For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.

I know gourmet cooks who use ketchup. I'd never afford a meal made by them ^^

not that they swear by it, heh

__________________

For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.

Considering what happens to Index's "Church" robes that are essentially a mobile fortress, well, yeah, probably that's what going to happen. Ladies and Gentlemen, Kamijou Touma in all his glorious cheapness.

Actually, let me rephrase that. I suppose I have a different idea of dirty fighting. A surprising amount of kung fu consists of creative ways to hit your opponents in the nads, and even before I started studying that I was a student of the Angus MacGyver school of tactical improvisation. So what I see as dirty is largely things that are just plain unnecessary and uncalled for, I.E. stomping a downed opponent.

IMO, Curren's takedown of Hayate was on an absolute different side of the line from Deville attempting to decapitate Isis. Hey, I like Hayate as much as the next guy, but when somebody's hanging a giant weaponized iceberg over your home, that definitely counts as throwing the first punch. Moreover, Curren's attack wasn't even intended to kill Hayate. Curren's getting a surprising lot of flack when she's easily the most restrained of the lot.

Frankly, I think too much of this discussion is more about fan-rage than anything else. . . And I said I wouldn't get dragged in. So much for that.

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The more that you resist the tide
The more it pulls you in
The more you hang on for your life~

IMO, Curren's takedown of Hayate was on an absolute different side of the line from Deville attempting to decapitate Isis. Hey, I like Hayate as much as the next guy, but when somebody's hanging a giant weaponized iceberg over your home, that definitely counts as throwing the first punch.

I thinked killing hundreds of people and attempted murder against two of her precious children count very fairly as a "first punch" to Hayate xDU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcc

Moreover, Curren's attack wasn't even intended to kill Hayate. Curren's getting a surprising lot of flack when she's easily the most restrained of the lot.

To be fair, i didn't complain that much about Curren's backstabing, combat-wise she looks pretty badass during the enterity of Ch. 13. It's her being such a spoiled brat what annoys me to no end, i'm started to figure out that the reason of why i like Deville that much is because he keeps his mouth shut, or at least avoids unnecessary dickery towards his opponent's.

What? I LIKE dirty tactics."Honorable" samurai duels is going to make scratch heads when the organization have the pretense to be slightly military. That overuse of "honorable" one on one duels is kind of shit that is only going to bring up more wallbangers.

*Implying that the main purpose of Samurai's were for one-one duel, even in large battles*

Despite what fiction may tell us, Samurai's (and European knights, and Arab Faris, and Turkish Sipahi's, etc etc etc) did use tactics (aside from some exceptions, which I must point out usually ended with the idiots being massacred), how else would they exploit their full advantage in battle?

That duel thing was mostly ceremonial, to boost prestige and morale for the victor's side of the duel before battle, and it usually happened only when both sides has some times for chit-chat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Aaaaand you just pointed out why the wolkenritter shuldn't be part of a military organization to begin with. Damn you StrikerS xDU.

I wonder why the didn't join the Saint Church instead, but yes, their mindset does seem out of place.

But TBH? Chivalry was a thing before armies have the firepower to do massive, widespread damage. The heroes in Nanoha could annihilate at least platoons!

Having a bit of 'realism' injection is fine, but only if the characters reacts with a similarly 'real' reaction. Against these Hucks 'befriending' isn't exactly a pragmatic choice, but having the heroes shoot to kill would break character, wouldn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluegel

I agree with this 100% in that they shouldn't be. Though in my case it's because I really, really, REALLY hate the brown uniforms from StrikerS. More than any person should >.>

The blue uniforms are nice though. And The black Enforcer ones are sexy

Yeah, the Hucks would actually be intimidating if they weren't, well, dicks. And just in a general douchebaggery sense, not being villainous about it. Makes them less 'implacable force' and more 'someone shut these guys up, for the love of god'