Bioidentical anything is not covered by our insurance, so bloodwork, exams, etc, would all be out of pocket and our pockets are not very deep. Fortunately my doctor is not a one-trick pony, so we are trying yet another option. She also thinks physical therapy would be helpful. Perhaps it would, but i need to be established in my job and will probably have a change in insurance later in the summer. In the meantime the new medical option will be what we do.

Leah, Unfulfilled's last post stepped on my toes a bit, but I think it needs to be said, especially in light of the 2nd paragraph of the original post. I don't know what it is about low testosterone, but one of the symptoms is not caring enough to do anything about it. Having been there and looking back, I still don't fully understand it. We don't like having to get our manhood out of a bottle is part of it. But thinking rationally, it is better getting it from a bottle than not getting it.

I understand the cost factor. Really, I do. Insurance rarely covers bHRT. We have had to do without a lot of things to get it. But if you needed $2000 to save your life, you could come up with it, probably without going homeless, carless, or losing any weight. I doubt it will bankrupt anyone. As medical care goes, bHRT is a bargain. Consider this in your cost-benefit analysis: bHRT isn't just about having more and better orgasms. It is about better -- much better -- overall health. If all it does is delay a heart attack by a few years, what comparatively little the bHRT cost will be more than recouped.

It will take several visits. But in our experience, it is totally worth it.

Our bodies are the temple of God. We are obligated to take care of them.

I want to be clear about this. Old age nees not mean an end to your sex life. I burst out laughing when some young poster asks if people in their 50's still have sex. Yes we do dear, the best ever. My parents are in their mid-80s, and apparently doing well in bed. I was discussing testosterone with my dad, whose natural levels are higher than mine BTW. Mom chimed in "oh, he doesn't need that. He's more than OK in that department".

Poetess, I read or reread this entire thread. To address some questions you raised:

I would treat him before you. Men are simpler and cheaper to treat, and given his symptoms, there is little doubt that he needs testosterone and that it would "fix" him. You, there is a possiblity that things could improve for you on their own. Testosterone to Estrogen ratios improve after menopause. While it is unlikely that you would get no benefit from it, there is no guarantee that it will help you orgasm.

He married a woman who has never been married before. Perhaps a good bit younger than him. He has an obligation to do anything reasonable to be a husband -- a sexual husband -- for you. That said, DON'T wait for him to get the blood tests, make the appts, etc. YOU do it for him. That's what DW had to do for me, and I love her to death for doing that.

In addition to low testosterone, there is a matter of lack of generosity. He should not only be willing to cuddle naked anytime you want, but initiate that. And low testosterone does not prevent his fingers and mouth from working.

Oral sex is great when the man has erectile issues (and other times as well ). The man can give and receive, no problem. We find it to be VERY intimate emotionally. When I was having issues, I still needed to relieve myself, and the only way I could do that most of the time was to give her oral sex while masturbating myself. Her pheromones apparently helped push me over the edge.

poetess wrote:I don’t count his touching my breasts as sexual touch, since that’s for him and it does nothing for me, but really he has hardly done that.

Let me share something about that which may help you. When DW lost her ovaries, she started needing nipple stimulation to O. According to our doctor, nipple stimulation produces the hormone oxytocin. It helps mothers love their babies, and also plays a role in orgasm. From when we were first married, I sucked her nipples a lot. I told her before we got married it was something I wanted to do, and it was even better than I imagined. She was accomodating, but didn't start enjoying it until after childbirth and nursing. I don't know if pregnancy triggered something hormone-wise, or if it is something that was learned from the baby sucking them so much. FWIW.

Finally, because he was married before, I think you both assume he knows more about how to please a women -- namely you -- than he really does. I don't mean this disrespectfully. I would have assumed the same if I were in his situation. But after reading here on TMB for 10 years now, I am still amazed at how different wives are as to what works for them sexually. Every couple's experience is precious and unique. He should forget everything he thinks he knows, and start exploring you with no assumptions.

BTW, it often hurts when he touches my breasts--sometimes quite a bit--and it never actually feels "good." So it has basically been somewhere between me tolerating it (because I'd rather he was touching something else, but at least it doesn't hurt this time) to tolerating it (the pain is manageable) to moving his hand or asking him to move it. I try to accept it when I possibly can because I know he likes it, but I'd "prefer" just to ask him never to touch them because to me it's often negative and never positive. But sometimes it recharges him sexually, so on those times it's a draw anyway. But I think about how much I like touching his testicles and how disappointed I'd be if he asked me not to do so, and I accept it when I can, even while it's way down the list of my own favorite touches.

He really did know more about sex than I did when we married, meaning that right from the first he varied his touch and other nuances that I doubt most virgin husbands think to do. But now he probably could use some help, and he's the sort of man who is open to hearing that, except that I have to be wise in bringing in up when he has some downtime and right now he does not.

ledgemoor wrote:He married a woman who has never been married before. Perhaps a good bit younger than him. He has an obligation to do anything reasonable to be a husband -- a sexual husband -- for you. That said, DON'T wait for him to get the blood tests, make the appts, etc. YOU do it for him. That's what DW had to do for me, and I love her to death for doing that.

I just wanted to agree with this as it was very similar to our experience. We were younger (in our late 20's) when dh experienced diminished libido (along with a host of other symptoms that go along with low testosterone, fatigue, depression, lack of motivation for anything even hobbies he previously enjoyed). He went from being very enthusiastic and generous in bed to barely mustering up the energy for quickies. He was very different. It was only through this forum that I heard about low testosterone and his symptoms seemed to fit so closely. After many tearful fights, and sleepless nights, and nagging and pushing and pulling to (several different) doctors we got a diagnosis. During the process he vacillated from thinking I was crazy to question that something was wrong with him to irritation at my insisting that we keep seeking a diagnosis. But 6 weeks into being treated for low T he actually said to me that it "was like a fog has lifted" and he was "so grateful" that I kept pushing him to get treatment. Long story short I'm not saying I handled it all very well or in the most graceful manner but he was and is very glad that I didn't take his initial no and kept trying.

It's funny, now that I think about it - my DH and I are both on hormone replacement therapy but see different doctors for it. Our insurance won't cover his doctor visits or lab testing, but will cover all the prescribed medications (testosterone included). Our insurance WILL cover my doctor visits and my lab testing, but won't cover the (compounded) medications prescribed. Fortunately the meds are very affordable at $40 a month for 3 different prescriptions (testosterone, progesterone, and estriol which is a combination of 2 different estrogens).

The way I found a doctor in our insurance network was to contact the local compounding pharmacy and ask them for a list of doctors who prescribe compounded medications. They happily provided that for me, and out of the very few (maybe 6?) doctors listed, I found one who was in our insurance network.

Even though DH's doctor and lab tests aren't covered by our insurance, he is so happy with the doctor he sees that he's willing to spend more out-of-pocket to continue seeing him. His doctor is passionate about HRT and is VERY knowledgeable and really digs into every aspect of DH's overall health.

I'm one of those wives who had to "nudge" DH to get treated for low T, but it was SO worth it. It positively affects so many different aspects of his health, not just his libido. When I saw the difference HRT was making for him, I decided to get myself tested and found that I was low in testosterone myself. I found that testosterone replacement for me had a lot of the same benefits for overall health that DH was experiencing.

"When you love them, they drive you crazy - because they know they can." (From the 1987 movie "Moonstruck", written by John Patrick Shanley)

Leah wrote:As far as I can tell, reliable testosterone treatment is much more available and affordable than estrogen, especially estrogen from reliable sources. Bioidentical is even more expensive.

One of the drugs that has proven only marginally effective is now so expensive I have had to tell my doctor we have to find something else. Even the generic version is unsustainable because of cost.

There are things out ther to help women, but they are not carried by every pharmacy, and the cost may put them out of reach for many.

In women, the enzyme aromatase converts some testosterone to estradiol, a type of estrogen. I probably need more estrogen than I am able to make (I'm about 25 lbs overweight) but I think when I'm getting T replacement therapy, I do better. Is that a consideration for you?

As to some of poetess's concerns and comments: We've gone through some similar soul searching, both my husband and I, with regard to hormone therapy. As you may know from unrelated posts, our financial situation has been a bit bleak the past year. We tried for a while just being philosophical about our aging bodies and lack of sexual vigor, and thought for a while that we'd just give in to it, and enjoy what we had left. I, too, nodded when I read your comments about taking your age and your financial situation into full consideration. We really had no choice, and it was that helpless feeling that I think was most depressing.

After a while, though, we both miss having a ready libido and ability to fully enjoy all aspects of the MB the way we can only with hormone replacement. We've gotten pretty creative at times getting what we need, but all in all, when we can afford it, we make room in our extremely limited budget for T therapy. The least expensive is T cypionate shots. Right now, blessedly, Medicaid covers his injections! And if we decide to switch to one of the topical T gels or creams, they cover that as well.

I cannot afford to have my compounded cream made, nor can I afford a visit to my anti-aging doctor who doesn't take insurance, much less Medicaid. (there's a whole 'nother rant there, for another time). I need it at least as badly as he does because it has huge benefits to me in terms of my radiation induced (and menopausal) vaginal stenosis and general vulva tenderness and friability. Frankly put, without it, I bleed with normal sexual contact and sting for days afterward. So...what to do? I made an appt. last week with our family doc who is treating DH and asked if he would prescribe T cream for me. He won't, but he referred me to a female associate in his office who WILL! Ask and ye shall receive

All that to say, I am still an enthusiastic supporter of hormone therapy. It's worth the sacrifice, if you want a better experience in the MB. That's a decision each couple needs to make themselves, of course. Even for the last couple of months without my cream, I supplement with DHEA so that at least my body can hopefully convert what I can't make myself. It does make a big difference. Anyone can purchase DHEA and with a little research learn how to responsibly take it.

___________________________________________________________________________How we handle our spouse's shortcomings reveals more about our own character than theirs. * I’ve already told you more than I know.

Not according to my doctor. The issue is not sex drive. It is a lack of estrogen due to menopause, causing thinning of vaginal tissues. There is a secondary condition being successfully treated, but the primary one is still being worked out.

I use a doctor who specifically deals with the needs of aging women, and she's on the cutting edge there.

Leah

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”--C.S. Lewis

Not sure if you're responding to my post, Leah, but in case I left you with the impression that sex drive was our only issue, it's not. I also have been seeing an expert practitioner in aging and hormones, but of course not all doctors will agree on the best course for any one patient, either.

I'd be curious to know what you are referring to when you say "not according to my doctor."? Testosterone doesn't convert to estrogen? It doesn't help with vaginal dryness and stenotic issues?

___________________________________________________________________________How we handle our spouse's shortcomings reveals more about our own character than theirs. * I’ve already told you more than I know.

BTW, it often hurts when he touches my breasts--sometimes quite a bit--and it never actually feels "good." So it has basically been somewhere between me tolerating it (because I'd rather he was touching something else, but at least it doesn't hurt this time) to tolerating it (the pain is manageable) to moving his hand or asking him to move it. I try to accept it when I possibly can because I know he likes it, but I'd "prefer" just to ask him never to touch them because to me it's often negative and never positive. But sometimes it recharges him sexually, so on those times it's a draw anyway. But I think about how much I like touching his testicles and how disappointed I'd be if he asked me not to do so, and I accept it when I can, even while it's way down the list of my own favorite touches.

Good on you for accommodating him. You have an idea how much breasts mean to a man from reading here and your husband's reaction to yours. They nourished our bodies when we were babies. Now, more importantly, they nourish our soul .

Does it hurt when you touch your breasts, or just when he touches them? The pain could be psychological. Like your belly button. You can touch it no problem, but if someone else touches it, it tickles and is unpleasant. (But with training, navel stimulation can become pleasant and erotic.) Same thing with G-spot stimulation. It is unpleasant until you learn to like it.

You'd think if that was it, that as long as you have been married you'd be used to it by now. But maybe you aren't doing it enough or he is too rough? I still get carried away, and DW has to constantly remind me to be gentle. Maybe if you touch them gently, then he touches you in the same place in the same way.

If they hurt when you touch them, it could be hormonal.http://procompounding.com/wp-content/up ... KEY-je.pdfIf your estrogen is too high and you have a few extra pounds, losing weight could lower it. Progesterone being off in either direction can cause it too. Since you aren't on the pill or bHRT, it's not likely you have too much. You could try a little progesterone cream (available OTC) and see if it helps.

I hope you can figure something out. You have sensitive breasts which is a good thing if you can turn the sensitivity into pleasure.

PS I mentioned oxytocin released by nipple play to help with orgasming. There is a nasal spray that you could use. You'd need a prescription though. DW has some, but it burns a little when you apply it, and we both prefer the nipple method .

Everything you ever wanted in life is just outside your comfort zone (Jamie Lee Curtis)

No, the breasts are a known medical issue, a certain kind of cysts. The doctor even told me (in front of my husband) that he'd once had a patient who'd had a double mastectomy. He asked her what year she'd had cancer and she said she hadn't--she simply had so much pain from the same issue I have that she had them removed. I figured that should be enough that my DH would know I wasn't just being selfish or overly sensitive when I tell him it hurts. But sometimes he tweaks them in ways that hurt even on a good day. And I don't like it when he is rough with them on days it doesn't hurt much, because other days that same kind of play could be real agony; since he doesn't know whether it's a "good day" or a "bad day," I'm then left having to say "Honey, please don't" or move his hands three times out of four. So I've started also saying, "They don't hurt today, so you can play with them a bit," but that runs the risk that he plays too hard. And really I know he has no idea how often I've endured actual pain or how much it makes my breasts the single least erotic part of my body when it comes to sensual touch. So I want to tell him, "I'd have a whole lot better pain-to-pleasure ratio if you'd leave my breasts alone and touch parts of me that bring me actual pleasure." But I don't, and then sometimes I pay for it later when I have discomfort or pain upon entry, too.

I see it has now been the better part of a year since I started this thread (yikes!) and at the moment I'm definitely in the "endure this but hope it will soon be over" phase. For a series of reasons my husband has not yet had his testosterone tested and I have not yet pressed him . . . but any sexual anything is virtually non-existent right now. To put a little bit of context on it, my husband has been sick for several weeks, so it isn't all just avoidance. But with good T levels, at some point he would have desired sex anyway. When he has been sick in the past, after a few days I offer and he either takes me up on it that day or does so the next day.

We managed to get through the entire month of January (and some part of December--I don't even know dates anymore) without a single sexual encounter. I left him a bit of an erotic note this morning that if he wanted to have sex in January there wasn't much time left and he gave me a big grin when he read it. (But he read it at 5 a.m. when I hadn't yet managed to get any sleep at all, so I wasn't exactly at the point of saying, "Let's do it right now!") We hugged a couple of times today and I kept wanting him to "start something," but it never happened.

To back up just a moment, December's sexual encounters (three of them, I think, with no more than two being intercourse and possibly just one) were quite forgettable. The last time we had intercourse he was nearly flaccid but he somehow managed to get it inside me, so I'm thinking that part of the reason we haven't had sex since is that he remembers it, too, and he thinks since he is still sick he probably can't do much better if he tries again now, which is very likely true. I don't remember whether the intercourse was encounter #2 or #3, but the other one, he came to the shower when I was in it, and masturbated into my hand, and it was just a dribble of yellowish liquid. For me, I've played in the shower a couple times just to keep my own sex drive from being totally dead when I have no idea when I will ever have sex again, when I know he probably won't be firm, and when I know that after all this time it is quite likely to hurt me.

So, today a good part of the day had gone by when I started giving him little hints I was thinking about sex and he was giving me googly eyes but more being playful than being erotic. If I'd "let it go" he would have too, so I finally asked if we could cuddle naked for a while and we did, with me touching his man parts periodically but him just lightly stroking my pubic hair a couple of times. I knew he wasn't feeling good, knew that if I overtly asked for sex he would just feel bad, and naked cuddling is probably a decent way to go ahead and move back toward having sex again. I just checked his pill bottle and we have three more days of medication for him, and probably that means he will continue to be a little sleepy until it finishes. So if I'm "lucky" I may get my first sex of the year February 4. And if he actually does have energy back at that point, he won't have the kind of energy for the extended foreplay this menopausal body will need to get revved up after several weeks of trying to make myself not even think about sex most of the time. Honestly, part of me doesn't even care about sex--it isn't going to feel good for me, and it's going to be more effort than it's worth, so why bother? But our marriage needs sex, and we both need to get back to the place where it is worth doing. But getting my hopes up takes mental effort and mostly leads to disappointment, and sexual encounters lead to a different kind of disappointment, so it would be easy just to "drift."

I think he is finally on the mend physically and (Lord willing) once he finishes the medication he should be moving back toward more normal activity, but between being sick and the side effects from the medication, and his Low T and my own hormonal challenges, I haven't even talked to him about how crazy hard this season has been for me sexually. And I haven't told him, "Once you are back on your feet, no more stalling--we need this testosterone test and treatment, because I want to be your wife again." Getting him well matters more. But this is part of getting him well, in the long run.