Is it Possible to Control a Demon or Evil Spirit?

Ok so I have been dealing with spirits and demons since I can remember. What I want to know is how people think on this theory. Its said our souls are unbreakable and will power in a sense is considered energy. Well if a person has enough enough will power ambition, desire, and passion do you think it is possible to control a demon and/or evil spirit?

Well, first of all, as a very scientific person, let me say that what he says makes alot of sense to me. But let me make one thing clear to everyone here. I have no affiliation to any god or satanic figure. In saying this though, I do believe in demons to some extent.

That being said, I’ve had a similar experience actually quite recently, but I in no way attempted to control it. I felt a presence for a long time, one night when it attacked I got some weird sensations, and instinctively tried to caste it away. when that didnt work I then sent the foul thing to the what can only be described as the “center of my being”, the sensation was kinda like a pebble dropping in a lake. followed by an blood curling cry that faded. I felt an additional presence in my body for a few seconds before the cry but as the cry was heard/felt, the foreign body subsequently vanished. And, no problems sinse. That was a little over a year ago and still doing fine.

Now I’m in no way saying to attempt this at all. I’m not even sure if this is healthy at all. And, in all actuallity, religious folk would probably say it is very unhealthy. Religion is important to the lives of many people and I respect that, and have no problems with it. And actually, I would probably like some opinions. Just please no poor thinking of me. Remember it was a spur of the moment attack.

About the entity that attacked you – it had been around you for a while, how long, and how did you know it was there, and what was it doing to draw attention to itself? How did it attack you? What did it do? What did you hear, and feel when it did so?

About you – what are your beliefs about heaven and hell? What made you decide to cast it ‘into’ yourself? Why do you use the imagery of a pool and a pebble? What does it mean to you?

The core of a human being, in my understanding, is the place where the deity resides within each of us. Some people see it as a candle flame, some as a pool of clear water (emotions).

Hello Ama, yes I do have a name, but for personal reasons, I would wish to not disclose my real name. You may call me drake if you would like. I will try to be as detailed as possible.

As far as the entity goes, I really wasn’t keeping track, but if I had to guess, it was prolly following me for something a kin to about….. 4 months? I myself don’t really know how I knew it was there, I just did. I’m not aware if it knew whether or not I knew it was there, some of its actions make me think it did (such as it simply watching me for so long)and other actions make me believe it didn’t. As far as how the entity acted, it was not all that dissimilar from that of a wild animal, but with some degree (if not a high degree) of intelligence. At times it seemed to be testing me,usually when I’m trying to go to sleep, and it would always make me feel the same sensation, a blow of sorts (like a punch) to the chest. Keep in mind that it only did this twice, one of which occured when I was half asleep and over at a friends house. This “testing” also supports that it knew I knew of its presence, but seeing as how I know almost nothing of the behavior of such things, I cannot say definitively. Other than that, it really didn’t do much, so I largely ignored it.

As far as the whole cry as previously mentioned, I’m afraid that it would be impossible to effectively describe it, but I will do so to the best of my ability. It had an “AAAHHH” build but it wasn’t like what child would do when frightened, it was more a kin to a roar. Furthermore, it sounded like it had more than one voice in it. The closest I’ve ever heard to it actually comes from an anime I watch, the hollows (a demon of sorts) in the series Bleach, but even it was nowhere close. As far as what I felt, this may sound weird, because not only did I hear the cry that it made, I also felt it. Its pretty hard to describe. Second, when I was attacked (keep in mind that I was fully awake at the time) I was laying in bed, and was alone, trying to get to sleep. That is when I felt the “blow” to the chest like I mentioned before, but this time it was much worse. I was able to take the blow, as I’m a wrestler in high school, But it was rough, and yes I’m still young.

About me, keep in mind that what I am about to say may be offensive to some people, just know that what I’m about to say was in no way intended to insult, denote, or argue against anyone. They are simply my beliefs. If anyone takes this offensively, I am sorry. I myself do not believe in a heaven, hell, satan or god. I guess you could say I am neutral in my beliefs. I’m not saying they don’t exist, they could, I just don’t believe so.

I have always been a very instinctive person, I just kinda know what to do based on what my gut tells me, thats not to say I don’t use my head. I do quite frequently, but I mostly rely on instinct. During these events however, I’m afraid I was relying on almost nothing but instinct. When it attack with the “punch” to the chest, my first reaction was to “punch” back. I then tried to drive it out where it preceded to overpower me. Once again, without really thinking, I directed it into the “center of my being” in a fashion that is kinda like a “If you want me so badly you can have me, provided you can handle me.” mentality. I did this in a last ditch effort to crush the entity. It appears to have worked thankfully. The whole ordeal only took a couple of seconds, probably about 10 seconds if I had to guess. That ten seconds however seemed like forever

As far as the imagery goes, that is simply the sensation I got when I sent it into myself, or more accurately, that is the closest analogy I could think of to describe it. I don’t really use the term “center of my being” but once again that was the closest thing that I could think of to describe it. Being as such, I don’t really give any thought to describing my center, but given the analogy I used, I guess I’m predisposed to the water analogy, but fire is also a good analogy as well. I guess I should note that I felt really strong after this whole ordeal, but this is probably just a youthfull vigor of sorts.

I hope you find this information interesting. As for myself, this moment was definitely an interesting one in my short life.

I do find your information interesting. I often work on ‘instinct’ in the sort of rescue work I do with ghosts, and people when removing negative entities. We had fun with that over the weekend, but that story is going to have to wait until I am less tired. LOL We had a BUSY ghostly weekend.

The demonologist knows not what she is talking about. They are here simply to aid humans in their lives. She is right when she says you cannot control them, but she is wrong when she says it is a bad idea. As a half demon myself, I have dealt with many demonologist such as this one who claims they are dangerous and to not attempt to harness their power, but this is not so.

Apologies for saying you didn’t know what you were talking about. I am satanic, which is basically the worship of satan and his demons. Basically reverse everything in almost every other religion and that is satanism. P.S. If someone says they are a vampire, tell them to bite you

My first thought is: Why would anyone want to control a demon or evil spirit in the first place? What would they (the controller) get out of the deal?

I am assuming this idea is to use demonic forces, so that a person will get exactly what they want whilst here on earth? Selfish acts?

The best anyone who wanted to do this could ‘hope for’ (not the best turn of phrase) is a ‘pact with the devil’. An agreement so to speak – but certainly not control over a demon. No! Only Satan has control over the fallen angels.

As for the agreement with Satan – well, he is a slippery customer so whatever you get out of the deal during your lifetime, would be paid up tenfold in the after-life. No one ever comes out of the dean better than Satan. Satan is like a loan-shark.

Hey AJ!!!
Total off subject topic; I read the excerpts from your book on your site!!! I am TOTALLY hooked!!! Now I have to BUY THE BOOK AND READ IT!!! You should ask CareTaker if you can promote it here! I will certainly help you!!!!

I’d say it depends. I’ve done it. I don’t deal much with this stuff but there was an instance where one of these things ended up getting attached to me. I didn’t plan on it but I ended up being the one controlling him and once tame he proved to be quite obedient and useful. Got rid of some poltergrists and demons at friends’ houses and the like. He’s no longer staying with me but I do know where he’s at.

How did I do it? Well, I think it’s best for me to know and for everyone else to wonder about. I don’t think it’s the type of information that should be carelessly published. I also only did this with one demon which means that my method may not apply to others.

Below is a part of theme that I have translated from an article of an expert person that deal by demons. I myself have never seen demons clearly yet and don�t like to see them or deal or get help of their power and enforce although I�m able to do such but I think an ordinary life is better than entering to a unknown world and is taken my time and my logic pay for things that common people are far from . I have many prays that protect me against demons and even I can compel the strong demons to obey of me (actually) for a time or permanently but I don�t like to be so and wish to be far away from them and also suggest you and others keep out from this secret area because if devilish demons understand you are a weak person and also haven�t any tool�s ( godly words) and enough facilities against them they become disobedient and then it is not certain what would be happened.

Translation :

�It is not so every one can compels demons to obey of him and guard him permanently by a simple ground rule .The ground rules which are in some books may is controlled demons temporary but those are majority useable for a determinate time and not protect You for all lifetime and also may when that time be finished that demon become irate so he or his folks hurts you .�

i thank you’s for your answer’s but the way you talk about control is in a diffrent sense and method and it is not just for demons also spirits good and evil. im saying without spells, praying or srcipture. im ment with intention an will i believe everything is similiar in some way. even in a contridicted type of aspect. i have my reason on believing why but with that said there is endless amout of possibilties. who’s to say that people dont have enough strength inside to hold them why cant it be possible?

Are you talking about ‘control’ as having dominance over a spirit so that you can ‘order’ it to do things for you? It yields to your will?

Or, are you talking about ‘control’ as in casting it out? (exorcism)?

The answer to the first, is no. An earthbound spirit might ‘play’ at it, as might a demon, but ultimately the control of the spirit is not by you. The earthbound spirit yeilds to itself, a demon yeilds to Satan and angels/guides yield to God.

There is a way to ‘make your own’ entity from your own energy. (I would strongly advise against that because, in the wrong hands, these self-constructed entities can be ordered by you to do bad things to others. Or, in inexperienced hands, these enties can actually turn on you (if this is built on your own negitivity, your negitivity may end up possessing you). However, these entities are not spirit in the true sense of the word. They have no consciousness of their own. They are extentions of you. So my advice – don’t go there, either.

some manageable demons are like wild leopard that is grown up by a human sometime if you stare in its eyes may make it fury and even its innate emotion cause to attack. supposedly which you can control a demon by your own willpower it is not enough to calm him permanently . you need to a cage to coop him. as AJ said human’s will and energy is not enough for such enterprise because demons are more powerful than us( but we are wiser ) and can does some unusual works which we are not able for doing those. so we are needy to a power upon our power or demons power when you see a strong and mauler tornado or feel a hard earthquake you understand god is how much mighty and powerful so only god’s miraculous words can control or cast out demons because in a godly pray is hidden mysterious orders and too great inappreciable energies that all thing in universe are submissive against those. in one word , our will and ability and also power is not enough to control demons without God’s help.
hope good coming days for you , A.J and Ama

So when one uses God’s word to cast out demons, does the same ones ever come back, or is it different ones? I’ve bound hundreds of them and sent them to the abyss, but other ones invariably come back, or is it the same ones?

I didn’t use any spells or prayers or anything of that sort. I’ve had and still have control over mine and it’s been over 3 years now. So I think it is possible to control I just don’t think everyone can do it. You definitely don’t need magic. Just not sure how far you’d go with will power alone though.

Is there a clear cut way to just keep them away from you? I have clairvoyance, so I can see them, they show up on walls, carpeting, the shower curtains when I’m going to the bathroom, its gets really annoying. I know they are deliberately trying to hassle me. All this stepped up after I obtained salvation.

Probably the worst is when they come through in the background when I’m watching videos on my computer, or even watching television. They are horrific looking, often with deep eye sockets and no eyes, or they have only one eye, which is odd. Many show up looking somewhat alien looking, and some look exactly like the typical greys.

I have to agree that you can’t control a demon, it would be like saying it would be possible to control a humans free will, booth have intelligence. However here is an interesting question why is it when you use the name of god ( and only god) that a demon will run for the hills. In all honesty what if a Hindu cried out the name of one of his/her gods would it work. That and if all demons serve Satan then I have a question. If they just haunt people for the fun of it why is it they attack people like a clairvoyant making him say “i dont need magic to deal with them” if they can manage to possess people and basically kill people in the most horrific of ways yet if you surrender to the will of god you are sheltered. Maybe their is a reason why “demons” attack people because of all of the heads turned to magic because of “evil experiences” associated with magic then maybe just maybe if a human could do what an angel or a demon could do where would god fit in the mix unless of course if you toss a couple of calamities and bad experiences with magic and call it evil that with the expectation if you call out the protection of god he may be less reluctant to send his “demons” to torture you beyond any help getting another brain dead slave to follow his teachings and better yet another soul to add to his collection.

Demon’s & Satan are ‘born’ from the monotheism belief system and resides in the belief’s of Judism, Christianity and Islamic religions. Satan an his fallen angels can only thrive where he is feared.

Hindu’s do not have the same concept as Judism, Christianity and Islam and therefore, there is no where, where Satan can ‘feed’ off of people’s fears. In short, Hindu’s do not need to fight of demon’s because they are not a part of their culture.

Yes, I know Ama but, in contrast to Christianity and Islam, Hinduism does not recognize any central evil force or entity such as the Devil opposing God and man. Therefore, to answer InfoDude56′s question; if only God expell’s demons, would it work if a Hindu cried out to God for deliverence, the answer to that can only be – there would be no need, as Hindu’s don’t see these things in the same way as Christians.

Thats a good question – I’ll try and explain in brief (I suspect it won’t be – hahaha!)

Christians believe in 2 entities ‘running the show’. On the one side, there is God who reigns over the angelic realm. One the other side, Satan reigning over the demonic realm. Poor Christian’s haven’t worked it out yet ….

The Hindu’s, on the other hand, believe that the supreme Brahman (God) has authority over all realms. All the demi-gods, demons and monsters are not considered to represent either all good or all evil, rather they have tasks to perform as Brahman instructs. You could say these ‘heavenly beings’ are more akin to the daemonic characteristic, rather than the angelic/demonic characteristics. (That poses an interesting question ….!)?

If you think of angel names, they represent specific characteristic’s of God. Well, the large number of personal gods that are worshipped by Hindu’s are also ‘characteristic’s’ of God.

Therefore, the Christian definition of demon does not comply with the Hindu definition. So the reason they give gifts to their demon’s and monsters is to appease them, thus be pleasing the Brahman’s sight. Hindu’s are certainly not frightened of demon’s in the same way as Christian’s are. Hindu’s respect their demon’s, not fear them.

Obviously Hinduism is much more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

Thank you for the explanation. That is excellent. And yes, demons want to be appeased, and eventually the ‘gifts’ have to get bigger and bigger … far better to not make contact with them at all. But that is just my opinion, I am not judging the Hindus.

A.J. Ryder I can see your point of view and how they are basically the thought forms of humans that have came to life by the belief of god, demons, angels and the beliefs from the Koran and Bible. However this does they can only exist where just Catholics know of his existence. Fear is fear no matter which way you put it. With this in mind I disagree with the idea that it has to be linked to some sort of culture it can go to any religion from a Hindu to a Muslim even to a Wiccan its all the same. That and I personaly believe that Satan isn’t just a thought form, I can see where Catholics and Muslims could get the idea of Satan’s existence by the Torah (since both religions derive both from Judaism) . However this still doesn’t explain why the wiccan creation myth states that as a balance Satan (being the brother of the goddess of the moon) creates all the bad things to level out the good and the bad. That either explains two things. One Satan doesn’t exist because the Jewish just copied the idea of Satan as a fictional being to explain why their are bad things in the world (he’s a concept). Or two that because he exists in not just the religion where god is concerned he is an alien and to stress why he is may not be evil is only because of one reason. If their was not an antagonist that just wanted to torture are souls for all of eternity just for the reason of biting the hand that created him is that if god is so powerful why doesn’t he just kill the tormentor and the answer is simple.
This is because if you were a heretic and did not have the fate of eternal damnation over your head more people would lead away from the church or question their scriptures as to why god said the things he said and lean towards living their life more freely. Therefore Satan exists for only one person in the bible as a way for more people for god to control and with the thought of burning for eternity in a lake of fire I think the amount of intimidation behind it is pretty level when god wants you to follow his path.

I did not say Satan was the thought form of a human that came to life through the belief of God. You misunderstood me.

Here’s a copy of an earlier post in response to Ama:

In contrast to Christianity and Islam, Hinduism does not recognize any central evil force or entity such as the Devil opposing God and man. Therefore, to answer InfoDude56?s question; if only God expell�s demons, would it work if a Hindu cried out to God for deliverence, the answer to that can only be � there would be no need, as Hindu�s don�t see these things in the same way as Christians.

Short answer, “no”, unless you happen to be a saint or have knowledge of matter of the paranormal, as God granted to King Solomon so “demons” would obey his commands.Demons are or were angels, before the fall, and still have the powers they had before thier residence was changed. Most angelologists and demonologists note a more change in attitude toward man by demons, as man being the finest piece of work God had ever produced, which didn’t sit well with some of the heavenly residents.So when one deals with a demon it is basically an angel that has been chnaged in apperance, which can be altered, but there is no love for man by them and I can find nothing that says a ‘strong will”, etc., can control them. The “Black Books” that can summon and command them include a great deal of info. about the summoner doing to protect himself from any specific “demon” he is wanting a chat with.

First, who in their right minds would want to???!!! I know because I have dabbled in the field of demonology and saw unless one was VERY completely trained in ALL phases of it, one was simply looking for trouble with a likely unhappy ending, for the mortal.You don’t summon something that was once an angel, with their power, and not expect them to push and see just how far they can go. King Solomon was apparently, hence having two books on demonology named after him, “The Greater” and “The Lesser”, If you have no idea where to start, do some reading!!!

A.J you seem to ignore the point I’m trying to make. The thing that I am trying to explain is that it doesn’t matter what cultural background you have if Satan is a being that wasn’t created as a thought form any religion but is still on earth then why is it that he doesn’t create a good image to people because if he could trick tons of souls into hell ( or even if their is no such thing as hell) own their souls why doesn’t he convince people to hand over their souls for success and make it seem like a good thing to give your soul to Satan instead of reinforcing the contrary letting one more soul escape through his finger tips. That is what I am curious about. Why he doesn’t make a giant ruse (being called the “king of lies” by the catholic church) and why he wasn’t destroyed by an entity so vastly more powerful then Satan who created the whole universe god. That is what I am curious about so can you give me proof to the contrary that demons are spiritual entities are cruel beings, or that it isn’t angels trying to turn people to the path of god and join his flock.

“why is it that he doesn�t create a good image to people because if he could trick tons of souls into hell”

Because Satan wants to be himself – Satan – and not a ‘goody-too-shoes’ God. Thing is, Satan beleived himself to be equal to God for Lucifer possessed everything which God possessed, because God made him from Himself. But being equal in all things does not necessarily mean behaving in the same way.

God whispers, whilst Satan shouts. God asks, whilst Satan demands. God love is unconditional, whilst Satan comes to you with a contract. That is how you can tell the difference.

If you read my exchange of posts with Ama concerning Hinduism, this explains (in brief) the Hindu concept of demons and monsters. But you have to think outside of the ‘Christian Box’ in order to understand where they are coming from.

Unfortunatly that still doesn’t make clear why Satan couldn’t just get tons of souls in the process. It also doesn’t explain even if god “whispers” what is he whispering. From the “whisperings” of god to the “shouts” of Satan the message is quite blatant on what gods teachings have lead to. It has lead to 1.) the massive genocide of “heretics”, 2.) the abandoning of free thought, 3.) power struggles, 4.) Secular dependency from the people to the clergy. In the end all of gods teachings whisper “follow blindly” even though we don’t know the end destination. For example if you were to read the bible their are tons of instances where god leads his lambs to the slaughter. Jesus is a prime example even though he did it for the people of earth although lets look at other examples. The tale of Abraham and his child, Abraham getting ready to kill his son in the name of god. Also the martyr St. Stephen who was sent by his fellow man and god to go to Jerusalem and preach but in the end stoned to death in the process. Also one of my favorite stories of god and love was St. Agatha who screaming out in pain for her god being tortured in unimaginable ways (like chopping her breasts off or rolling over hot coals) in the end she dies of being tortured when asking her god to save her because this just all happened because a man wanted to sleep with her and she said she didn’t want to sleep with him (obeying exactly one of the ten commandments “thou shalt not commit adultery”). So in the end the only merciful, kind, loving god I see is a mean little entity with the power to shape the universe but not any of the virtues to actually help any of his kin. That and if he can give his subordinates the power to preform miracles why doesn’t he just teach people how to do so. If he could just do that then people could help themselves aswell as have their faith massively boosted. Also with that in mind going back to my earlier posts it also allows god to control more people with his miracles. If he has the power to do miracles if he could teach people to do so then wouldn’t that just allow them to do what they want more freely?

Some Christians believe the Bible is the true word of God, and some don’t. Those that do might be daft enough to offer their child in sacrifice like Abraham, but if that story is true, then it was a test of Abraham’s faith, given by Jehovah .. and he is not my favourite god. You will note the boy wasn’t killed, but its a perfect example of the two faced name of the OT god, or the stupidity of one man who thought a ‘loving’ god would demand his son’s death?

What God whispers is what each person needs to hear to correct their lives in a loving way. Do you trust yourself? Do you trust your intuition, your ‘feelings’ about things? Or do you, like so many others, do the exact opposite, and when a situation doesn’t turn out how you like, do you blame God? Well, sometimes I don’t listen to the whispers, but I don’t blame God when my life doesn’t turn out how I want it to. And I have never heard God whisper ‘follow blindly’ .. no that’s more a church/human shout. I can remember that from growing up .. oh, it wasn’t worded exactly like that, but it was close enough. One of the reasons why I got expelled from Sunday school.. I questioned and I argued, and I was only 9 at the time.

And martyrs, mate .. they did it to themselves. No loving God would demand someone throw themselves on hot coals, or stand around yelling until they are stoned to death. Yes, the church said some of the martyrs were saints, but this was ‘after the fact’ (they might have been thought lunatics at the time – and then we have St Christopher .. who never existed), because of certain miracles that were supposed to have happen in their name, but these days a person who cuts themselves ‘for God’ is usually sent to a psychiatrist .. even members of the clergy, and nuns.

And miracles would lose their power if everyone could do them. They are designed to give the receiver peace, not feed the egos of the masses. But the masses take them and twist them and hide them and pretend they never happened .. and why, because its a genuine sign that there is something out there stronger than humanity, and I think people find that more frightening then awe-inspiring .. and yes, I’m talking about the church hierarchy as well. So every miracle is derided, unless it suits the church to see it in another way .. and that is very sad.

3000 odd years ago, it was considered the ‘norm’ to sacrifice both humans and animals to appease the gods. Although this religious ritual is considered barbaric to most of us today, the idea of human sacrifice has its roots in deep prehistory, in the evolution of human behaviour itself. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that in Abraham’s day, men considered it a normal part of worship to offer a sacrifice because that is what they beleived their God’s demanded!!? Now, whether or not these sacrifices were on those Gods commands, or simply a throw back to how man thought they should show allegance to their Gods pre monotheism, is open to debate.

However, as far as the God Yahweh was concerned, a human sacrifice was neither required nor welcomed by Him. Abraham’s story is a testament to that change in attitudeas well as how Yahweh considered the worship of God should be conducted.

In short, God showed Abraham His humanity, by sparing Abraham’s first and only son’s life. Because Abraham was so devoted to Yahweh, He, in return, blessed Abraham’s decendances, through all the nations. This blessing was not just via Isaac’s decendants, (Twelve Tribes of Israel), but also Ishmael’s decendants, the Twelve Tribes of Ishmael (a nomadic nation which lived in northern Arabia. Modern-day Arabs claim descent from Ishmael, and the religion of Islam is his legacy).

So, I do not believe Yahweh was a two-faced sadistic God. I think He deliberately made a point of standing out from the other Gods, by showing compassion and love – not just to Abraham, but also to his first born son. Life is too important to throw away just to attempt to ‘please’ a deity’s fickle and egotistical nature.

Regardless of social norms .. dear God, you have to wonder how many children were sacrificed to appease any god in those days (sigh), I don’t see YHWH as merciful. (Jehovah is the anglised name of YHWH, for those who don’t know).

If the story is true, YHWH ‘demanded’ that Abraham sacrifice his own son ‘as a burnt offering’ to prove his faith in YHWH. Abraham even went as far as binding his son and placing him, alive, on the wood to be burned. What sort of loving God would demand that??? And what sort of father would do it? It was only then that ‘an angel from YHWH’ stepped in and literally stopped him lighting the pyre, and a lamb was sacrificed instead. To me that looks like psychological torture, regardless of social norms, but that is just my opinion.

Given that Genesis is the first book of the Bible a guess at the date would be around 4000 years ago (though I don’t know for sure), and my bible says ’250 years of historical-critical scholarship have established that Genesis was written over a long period of time, using oral and written traditions’. The other book I want to touch on is 1 Samuel, which is suggested to have been written after 586BCE (Before the Common Era). There is about 3400 years between them.

So we have Saul .. and you have heard this story before .. Saul defied God when he did not kill the King of Amalekites .. his men killed every other person, adult and child, of that tribe, but the king was still standing, and Saul’s men kept the best of the animals to sacrifice them to Samuel’s God, YHWH ( name confirmed in the Interlinear Bible from the Hebrew). The so-called merciful God then send an ‘evil angel’ to torment Saul for his disobedience, after His prophet Samuel killed Agag. The ‘god’ then replaced Saul with David. I won’t touch on what God then did to David for being disobedient.

Where is the mercy? Does the torment of one of your ‘faithful’, and then the torment of someone who tried to spare the life of even one man of (we don’t know how many), look like the act of a rational God? In my opinion, it sounds like the act of a nutcase. How can you trust a being who might turn on you if you do something It doesn’t like? So I have to wonder what that ‘god’ learned in the 3400 years?

I think I’ll stick with the unconditional loving of EL. YHWH (Jehovah) has proved that It’s love is conditional on our doing exactly what it wants all the time .. otherwise we are in deep trouble. And yet, funnily enough, where is the smiting? There are so many disobedient Christians now, and so many who do not follow Christ? But that’s a whole different set of thoughts ..

When your children defy you, do you not punish them in some way?? After all, its for their own good – isn’t it?

The thing is, both Saul and David defied God. Whether we think the motive and subsequent punishments were just or not, makes no difference. God see’s the overall picture, not just the life of one man – no matter how good a servant they are to Him.

But I have to ask, what exactly did Jesus do to deserve being crusified?? How did he defy God? Why such a cruel punishment? The answer is, (as far as I’m aware) Jesus was not a naughty child in Gods eyes. Yet God still ‘allowed’ Jesus to be cut off in his prime when he was doing such a good job of spreading Gods Word. This act lead to Jesus, himself, even questioning God’s motives at the end, asking God why He had forsaken him.

I believe the reason He allowed it to happen was because God knew that to kill the prophet (make him a martyr) would mean that Jesus’ voice will be heard for thousands of years to come, whereas to let the prophet live would mean that Jesus’ voice would be carried away in the wind until it could no longer be heard, and therefore forgotten in a very short space of time.

Again – the way I see it, Yahweh of the OT is no different to God of the NT nor Allah of the Qu’an for that matter. We must remember that God see’s the whole picture and not just the life of one man (or woman). Only He know’s how it will all play out over millenia. Only He know’s how it began. Only He knows why things happen the way they do. Only He know’s how it will end. And both the OT and the NT agree on Judgement Day.

Best not to judge God because, unlike us, He knows what He is doing and why He is doing it.

Yes, I punished my children when they stepped out of line, but I never sent demons to torment them, nor would I demand they place my grandchild on a fire (alive or dead), only to reprieve the child when it suited me. Nor would I do what ‘god’ did to Job, and kill his whole family and take away all his possessions, which is what ‘god’ is supposed to have allowed Satan to do. That is not a slap on the backside.

And Jesus was a different case. I believe he was born to serve a purpose, quite specific, and I am sure he knew about it. “Your will, not mine”, was what he said to God, after his moments of fear .. and wouldn’t you be frightened, being human, and about to be crucified, for whatever reason. It was a huge act of trust that he didn’t run from his ‘destiny’. And we only have the word of the writer’s to say he didn’t come down off the cross and go on and live his life (lots of discussions over the medical side of his death) .. wouldn’t that kill the story!

I am not judging ‘God’, I am observing behaviours from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and I am not pretending that there is ‘only one God’ of 72 different names. There seems to be two specific names .. YHWH and EL, defined by those behaviours. I should go back to university and finish my course, only I can’t write in their complicated fashion. The comparison of the two gods would make a fascinating thesis, in my opinion.

The only reason the OT and NT agree on judgment day is because Revelation was written hundreds of years after the Old Testament prophets gave their messages to the people. Theologians consider Revelation to be a political commentary on what was going to happen to Nero for his persecution of the Christians at the time. Revelation uses old testament prophetic symbology very clearly. One of the interesting ‘facts’ for me is that in Gematria (Kabalic (Jewish) numerology) 666 is the number for Nero, and the devil/satan is 616. The NT is very specific in the number it uses .. ‘the mark of the beast is 666′.

| believe that ALL the prophets were born to serve a specific purpose so Jesus is no different in that respect.

Unfortunately, it does not alter the fact that Jesus’ God allowed him to suffer terribly and violently for His will.

Just to side-step a bit here, because I am a bit confused as to why you believe Yahweh, Allah and God are all different dieties:

Do you think Jesus worshiped a different God from the Jews? I can’t remember being taught anything about Jesus swapping allengence from Yahweh, nor declaring Yahweh to be a ‘false’ God? Happy to stand corrected if there is anything that states that specifically in the NT. Until then, I have to assume that the God which Jesus refer’s, is the same God as the Judaic and Islamic religions.

As for what we call God – in French it is Dieu – in German, Gott. But does that make Him a different diety from God?? Just a random thought …

I have not mentioned Allah, and am not considering him as part of this conversation, simply because I have not read all of the Koran and don’t feel I can make any comments on Allah because of that, under this subject. I know that both religion’s Bibles have the same source, the Tanakh.

The ‘allowed’ word is a strange one, AJ. My opinion is that Jesus knew what was happening, and why, and he ‘allowed’ himself to be a vessel for the Holy Spirit (Christ energy), and then ‘allowed’ himself to play his role as sacrifice for the whole of humanity. Under the gift of free will does God ‘allow’ us to do whatever we like, say whatever we like, rewrite ‘his’ book, reinterpret it, take ‘his’ name in vain, refuse to kill ‘his’ enemies, worship other ‘gods’ .. doesn’t sound like Jehovah to me. He was the smiting type. And yet, no one has been ‘smited’ for some truly horrible behaviour since Jesus came and was crucified.

Jesus taught the same laws, and added one more .. love one another ..

Thinking on that theme, I don’t think Jesus ever said of EL, ‘your God is a jealous God, so you better be very careful’. No, instead he spoke of the harm that jealousy brings. And yet Jehovah is a jealous God .. so you would think, if they were the same God, that would be one of the messages, just to keep humans on the safe path?

LOL – to the Torah/Tanakh. Maybe a strong coffee was in order?? TeeHee!

I do not believe Jesus added a new Law, he simply emphasised another aspect of God’s ‘character’ which seemed to be largely ignored. An aspect which was as ‘lost’ 2000 years ago in the Judaic teachings, as it is ‘lost’ today in an awful lot of Christian Fellowship teachings. For some reason, the Wrath Of God always seems to appeal more than the Love Of God. I never understood that concept, and nor did Jesus. That is why I turned my back on the Christian religion practically as soon as I could think for myself. (aged 5, it was. I remember the thought well).

I see God as having many ‘faces’ – the lion, which roars (wrath) the eagle, which can flight high in order to see all things (ever present/watching over us), the ox, which toils in the field (devotion/loyalty/love); the man, which thinks (wisdom).

What we will quite happily accept as ‘natural causes’ today, would have been interpreted as ‘God’s Will’ or God’s Vengance’ millenia ago. All those millions starving in Africa as i type, for example. Nothing has changed, except for our understanding of it – people and nations are still suffering at the hands of God/Nature.

Sorry, but do you think people are starving in Africa because its God’s will? Or is it simply that the western world would rather dump all their ‘waste’ in the sea, rather than putting it on a cargo plane and shipping it over there to feed them – and I’m talking about loaves of bread here, fresh stuff, and vegetables .. what else have I heard about? Flour? No, you probably didn’t, I am just misreading it.

I am interested in your enterpretation of Ezekiel’s (1:6 – 21) beasts – I wish I could agree that man equals wisdom. Much as I love humanity, hit someone hard and they generally don’t step back and say ‘please don’t do that again’, no, they hit you back. Put a group of people together, as happened in Melbourne last night, and they can turn into a mob and destroy property, and injure each other and the police (or whomever) .. give someone an issue they truly believe in, and then argue with them (or worse, don’t argue, just exist), and they might pick up a gun .. look at the guy in Norway just recently, or the wars in various countries. No, man (humanity) is still an animal and has a long way to go before it has enough wisdom to not react from fear.

Speaking of lions – early this morning I dreamed I was a gentle female lion on top of a high cliff, looking down. I slipped and fell and landed in deep snow, and kept sinking. I ended up trapped in the snow, and decided I would die there, and relaxed, and the snow gave way beneath me and I landed in a beautiful landscape, forest, bush, a few people, lots of animals? So I looked the symbolism up …

Lion as a totem animal – “Leadership, truth, nobility and power balance the playful and calm serenity of Lion. He will teach how to strengthen your spirit and resolve. A quiet demeanor is balanced with a fierceness especially when family is concerned. He shows that rest is needed before continuing. Are you misappropriating your time and energy? Listen to the actions of Lion for he will show if it is time to relax and destress your mind, body and spirit. Respect, grace, stealth, focus, knowledge – Lion medicine is about timing or your personal power. Increased community responsibilities and cooperation, cunningness, fearlessness and expert timing are lessons that Lion teaches. Lion aids in recognizing and understanding your own noble and regal attitudes. Are you taking on the characteristics of a male lion or a lioness?”

That’s a lovely interpretation of one of our spiritual/shamanic teachers.

Where did you get the ‘wrath’ meaning from? I would say the roaring was more the braggart side of things, but that is just my opinion.

I dreamed of trying to clean out a discustingly dirty public toilet last night. It was blocked up and all festering with ……….. na! won’t go there! The night before, it was a basin, that was blocked. It had water trapped in it that had been there so long insect larvy were swimming around in it. But people were so desperate for water, they were still trying to drink it. Euu! It was so bitter and stale and … well, just … euu!!

Thankfully(?), I know what all this refers to ……….. just wish I could’ve conjoured up a better visual than festering toilets and bunged up wash basins – LOL!

Back to Lions – Lion’s can also be man-eaters!! They will get extremely aggresive if tormented, backed in a corner or have to fight for their family. There are many characteristics to a Lion.

No, I wasn’t saying Africa’s drought is Gods Will. What I was trying to point out was that in todays society, we attribute such events by Meteorology – ergo a natural occurance based in science, not some kind of supernatural wrath.

But, minellia ago, Meteorology was non-existant (to my knowledge), so man would have looked to the actions of a deity as an explanation, because there was no other explanation available. More often than not, they concluded that the deity in question was in some way angry with them. Why else would certain priests/religious enders of various beleif’s revert to spells or rain dances to try and change the climate/appease their God/s??

I love the story of Josph, which does topple the whole thing on its head. On the one hand there’s the seven year famine which was servere in ‘all the world’ Genesis 41:57 – except for Egypt that is, as this was the only place left which still produced grain. Then there’s Joseph, God’s faithful servant who was given the gift of interpreting Pharaoh’s dreams, so that Egypt could plan ahead, thus not suffer the famine. In fact, Egypt was so bountiful there was plenty to share amongst the other regions. The best bit is, Joseph, Jacob and the rest of the family reunite at the end – hurrah!! – I love happy endings!!

Thank you for your lion explanation. I agree about primitive people’s desires to create Gods to explain natural phenomena.

So let’s do this morning’s dream. I was upstairs in a room in ‘my’ house (one I don’t have yet) and was ironing. A well dressed lady about my age came in and was discussing my training as an Undertaker (Funeral Director). I was ironing brown trousers, and a white shirt. I don’t wear brown. The radio was on, or was it the tv? I wasn’t watching it, or listening, but it bugged me so I turned it off. The first lady was brown haired, the next, younger, lady who bounced into the room (lots of energy) was blond. She also wanted to discuss my training as above. The room had by then doubled in size (was it an attic? sloped ceiling?) and there were now four ironing boards, instead of the original one. I was facing a wide window, covered in lace curtains, as I worked. ??? And all this from my mind. I swear, before the anaesthetic, I seldom dreamed at all .. now??

Does someone know if there is an American word for ironing board? Hmm.. the rest I have worked out.

It’s an ironing board still, I think? According to Amazon.com anyway – lol!

Don’t get tired out by all that extra work load, Ama? Ironing – yuk!

My dream ……a-hem ….. I was gathering up all the Zombies from every corner of the world and took them back to this building, which was just starting to be built. It only had the footings when I started my quest but, by the time the last of the Zombies had followed me into the the building, it was complete, including being decorated. It was a beautiful white-washed walled shalet bungalow, with a wondrous garden full of early summer flowers in full bloom. The garden stretched down to a river (yep! Water again!!). The river was teaming with life. The whole place was very tranquille and the zombies were finally contented and at peace.

I love ‘healing’ dreams, even if mine turn out to be a bit … well … strange!

Thank you Luna. Obviously the lady who wrote the dream book doesn’t like ironing any more than I do. She had a meaning for ‘iron’, but not one for the ironing board .. unless my work is going to quadruple?

AJ .. I wonder if those ‘zombies’ are the lunatics in England, being run by ‘criminal elements’ according to the news, who are destroying whatever they can in the major cities? If you can find them a quiet safe place to calm down .. God bless you. A little healing is a wonderous thing!

I didn’t have a dream that I remember this morning. Shall keep you posted if they start again. LOL

I have no reason to step on toes or say anyone is wrong to begin with. I was raised Catholic and was pushed into religion, as I grew older I found my own belief that God nor Satan exist. Now as for “demons” and other spirits I have had the unfortunate ability to see and hear them. I have no idea as to what they are, be it good or evil, if either of those truly exist. I have had both positive and negitive experiences with these entities but cannot judge the intentions they may have had. Something does exist on others levels we cannot always see. I don’t know if I should call myself lucky or gifted because I can see these things but one thing I know for sure that asking the for help or trying to control them is useless. What I do know for sure is they do have the ability to follow. Do not open a door you cannot close. I have nothing to say as far as religion, beliefs or personal gods, I am not even sure I have a soul or there is anything after i close my eyes to die but there is something on this earth other than us and what we know.

I don’t think luck has a lot to do with it. Being able to discern spirits is a gift, its also a challenge, and my understanding is that we choose it before we come into the world – its also know as a gift from God, if a person believes in God.

I agree .. don’t open a door you don’t know how to close again. And don’t run away when you open the door and leave it for someone else to struggle with. Your (the person who opened the door) energy is connected to the door until the day it is closed, so you can run, but as the saying goes ‘you can’t hide’. We leave a small trace of ourselves on everything we touch, and everyone we react with. It’s good to learn to be responsible for everything that we are, and only ‘touch’ with kindness.

Unless you have physically seen and then there after felt the entry.. then you cannot.. you cannot choose to control one.. they choose you.. all demons and angels want equilibrium and balance in the universe… the angels protect the good.. the demons punish the bad..

IF YOU ACTUALLY SEE ONE and see and FEEL/SEE their entry into your soul.. if its an angel all you gotta do is have a strong will, a good intent and to gain influence (all for the greater good) the same goes for the demons

.. if you are bad with an angel in you .. then that angel will cease to be OR maybe become bad.. I am not too sure..

same for a demon.. Strong will.. Good Intent.. Gain influence in your profession / hobby (for the greater good)….. With a demon.. you can choose to keep him bad.. but then concisely ask GOD to judge where to send him to do his dastardly deeds on those who deserve to feel the wrath… ask GOD…

If you use either of these things purely for your own gain you will get fucked up…

everyone has an angel and a demon.. one may be stronger than the other though .. if you do end up seeing your angel or demon and see or feel them enter you.. then with great power comes great responsibility…

Wikipedia ‘Spring Heeled Jack’ …

How do I know this? Just ask Jack… or whatever his name is.. ‘Shaco’ I think the kids call him nowadays…

I repeat do not call these things.. if you deserve or are worthy they will come to you.. I never practiced the arts but recently figured a few things out… so trust me.. dont practice unless they were attracted.. YOU GET ME NOOBS!?

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