Reminds me of some folks who put a large 'Pestalozzi Street Baptist Church' sign on their van every time they drove the party up to Champaign for U of I games. It may have made them less inclined to be scrutinized by the County Sheriff, but it didn't make them Baptists.

Screw it, we just take the dog in anyway. Not into a grocery store or restaurant, but he goes into pretty much any other store. Sometimes in his stroller, but most of the time just in the kiddie seat of the shopping cart. Granted, he's a 5 pound chihuahua. I don't think we could get away with it with a 200 pound Newfie that's liable to drop a 5 pound turd on the floor.

Good good, we're just about to reach critical-mass, where it'll get so bad that it actually gets fixed.

/a couple of acquaintances breed and raise golden retrievers as service dogs//it takes probably 1/3 of the dog's life to get it trained properly///and a good portion of them don't end up getting good enough to use anyway

TWX:Good good, we're just about to reach critical-mass, where it'll get so bad that it actually gets fixed.

/a couple of acquaintances breed and raise golden retrievers as service dogs//it takes probably 1/3 of the dog's life to get it trained properly///and a good portion of them don't end up getting good enough to use anyway

Our old neighbors had an awesome black lab that flunked guide dog training because she wouldn't pee on command. Wallaby was a great dog.

TWX:Good good, we're just about to reach critical-mass, where it'll get so bad that it actually gets fixed.

/a couple of acquaintances breed and raise golden retrievers as service dogs//it takes probably 1/3 of the dog's life to get it trained properly///and a good portion of them don't end up getting good enough to use anyway

A friend of mine trains service dogs. The one she's training at the moment she doesn't think will make the final cut. "Too needy" were her exact words. However, the dog will make an awesome pet for some lucky kid one day. If I had the time for a dog, I'd take her. I'll stick with my cats. Who's needy requirements are limited to, "open the farking can, asshole!"

If the dog is actually aggressive rather than you just being full of shiat, do you know what you can do with a service animal? Call the actual police or animal control and get it impounded, and possibly put down.

If you push it, that outcome's pretty much inevitable since human-safety statutes will trump the ADA every time (calling animal control, notably, is not 'questioning the credentials of the dog', and whether it gets killed is a matter of the dog's behavior and not mitigated by any cert), and after three or four pets or "therapy animals" getting put down make the national news the fakers will most likely cut it out.

// I love my dogs as much as the next guy, but it's the same love I have for my car, my reactors, or hanging out on the river. Fundamentally they're not people, they're property, and they don't have a legal or moral right to hang out wherever they want.

Here's my solution to the problem. Your properly trained and certified dog is issued a serial number. You must provide this number on demand (a tag on the collar should do). The dog will have an online profile which will include a picture, description, and the info on how the dog is trained as a service dog (what you are legally allowed to ask). So what little miss rich biatch shows up with her purse chihuahua but the serial number returns a black lab, you can toss her entitled ass out the door.

OgreMagi:Here's my solution to the problem. Your properly trained and certified dog is issued a serial number. You must provide this number on demand (a tag on the collar should do). The dog will have an online profile which will include a picture, description, and the info on how the dog is trained as a service dog (what you are legally allowed to ask). So what little miss rich biatch shows up with her purse chihuahua but the serial number returns a black lab, you can toss her entitled ass out the door.

You have your yappy "service dog" for everyone to see, I carry my "service revolver" out in the open. Not a weiner fight or anything. Simple: control your dog, or I might lose control over my revolver. It has a lot more training than your dog./Not the first dog I've shot.//Been bitten, by a pit bull, so I guess we're pretty much even.///Called 311, reported owners, dog impounded. Not the 1st time. Owners wound up moving. Fark the dog.

Jim_Callahan:// I love my dogs as much as the next guy, but it's the same love I have for my car, my reactors, or hanging out on the river. Fundamentally they're not people, they're property, and they don't have a legal or moral right to hang out wherever they want.

As the next guy seems to be me, I'm calling bullshiat. My dog is not just a piece of property, he is not a person, but he is a living being with his own life that he happily gives up just to be my pet. I would give anything for him and he would do the same for me.

noitsnot:OgreMagi: The biggest flaw I see is people might go through the online database searching for a service dog that matches their pet. Not sure how to prevent that.

Not browsable. Must enter a code that corresponds to an animal, which are not predictable, sequential numbers (i.e. our friend the UUID). So hard to guess a valid one randomly.

As long as they don't do something stupid like assign numbers based on dog type. A long and purely random number (letters too) would work out well. However, this would have to be done at the federal level, and you just know those morons would implement a number scheme that includes all kinds of information about the animal.

tjsands1118:Jim_Callahan: // I love my dogs as much as the next guy, but it's the same love I have for my car, my reactors, or hanging out on the river. Fundamentally they're not people, they're property, and they don't have a legal or moral right to hang out wherever they want.

As the next guy seems to be me, I'm calling bullshiat. My dog is not just a piece of property, he is not a person, but he is a living being with his own life that he happily gives up just to be my pet. I would give anything for him and he would do the same for me.

/Seriously, after these one, just stop, you don't deserve a dog.

Yes, because the dog has the ability to fully comprehend the situation and make an informed decision regarding his future.

OgreMagi:The biggest flaw I see is people might go through the online database searching for a service dog that matches their pet. Not sure how to prevent that.

I have a solution, issue the permit to the patient, not to the animal. That's how handicapped placards and plates work- they're issued to the patient by prescription and then that prescription is "filled" by the motor vehicle department, and when abused and actually caught, can result in fines.

Since service dogs and other service animals usually have clothing in some form on them identifying their status, require that the clothing item or the harness have the permit attached. No permit, no requirement to honor the animal as a service animal. Have the permit feature a picture of the patient too, so that permits can't be traded very easily.

Jim_Callahan: Fundamentally they're not people, they're property, and they don't have a legal or moral right to hang out wherever they want.

If a corporation can be a person, I don't see why your dogs can't be people. Speaking of people, why don't we have "service people"? Companions/youngers? We have mentors for the young ones. There are a lot of un-underemployed, this would be a win-win.I saw an older woman trying to go to the post office the other day, she drove up in her Pontiac. I went to lunch and came out to my car again and there she was at the post office still and in a different parking slot. These are good people who are all alone.

TWX:OgreMagi: The biggest flaw I see is people might go through the online database searching for a service dog that matches their pet. Not sure how to prevent that.

I have a solution, issue the permit to the patient, not to the animal. That's how handicapped placards and plates work- they're issued to the patient by prescription and then that prescription is "filled" by the motor vehicle department, and when abused and actually caught, can result in fines.

Since service dogs and other service animals usually have clothing in some form on them identifying their status, require that the clothing item or the harness have the permit attached. No permit, no requirement to honor the animal as a service animal. Have the permit feature a picture of the patient too, so that permits can't be traded very easily.

There's a thriving online business selling fake service dog vests and certificates. Because the law currently prevents anyone from properly questioning credentials, there needs to be some process in place to verify the dog. Thus my suggestion.

OgreMagi:Here's my solution to the problem. Your properly trained and certified dog is issued a serial number. You must provide this number on demand (a tag on the collar should do). The dog will have an online profile which will include a picture, description, and the info on how the dog is trained as a service dog (what you are legally allowed to ask).No, your farking rat doesn't get certified as an anxiety helper. It's vermin.

Registration and regulation is just a first step toward confiscating all the service animals and enslaving all the people, like the Nazis did. First they came for my rat, then the jews.

ArcadianRefugee:tjsands1118: Jim_Callahan: // I love my dogs as much as the next guy, but it's the same love I have for my car, my reactors, or hanging out on the river. Fundamentally they're not people, they're property, and they don't have a legal or moral right to hang out wherever they want.

As the next guy seems to be me, I'm calling bullshiat. My dog is not just a piece of property, he is not a person, but he is a living being with his own life that he happily gives up just to be my pet. I would give anything for him and he would do the same for me.

/Seriously, after these one, just stop, you don't deserve a dog.

Yes, because the dog has the ability to fully comprehend the situation and make an informed decision regarding his future.

Stop anthropomorphizing an animal.

/dog person

Well, they can sniff drugs and differentiate between handlers and prisoners. What more do you want? Differnentiate between broccoli and steak?

tjsands1118:As the next guy seems to be me, I'm calling bullshiat. My dog is not just a piece of property, he is not a person, but he is a living being with his own life that he happily gives up just to be my pet. I would give anything for him and he would do the same for me.

Firstly, no, it wouldn't. It's a dog. It wouldn't give anything to you beyond trained and innate pack behavior, which would relatively easily be transferred to the next owner if your stopped feeding it for a month or two.

Right idea, wrong branch of engineering. Point is, humans anthropomorphize and value anything they've spent a lot of time and effort on, it's just how we organize our worldviews by default and at the extreme end it's where religions come from when someone's out there enough to do it to the damned weather.

The idea that your dog feels human-equivalent love for you is about as real a thing as someone that's restored a classic car assigning it a gender and pretending the engine turning over smoothly is a purr of happiness. It ain't the dog, it's just another version of your talking to yourself.

This isn't to talk down dogs... they're domestic animals, they've got their own animal stuff going on and it's not their fault some people lose perspective easily. But they don't actually have the sunk costs fallacy, they have imprinting and pack behavior, which is a superficially similar but ultimately very different thing.

ski9600:Speaking of people, why don't we have "service people"? Companions/youngers?

Actually, this is a pretty funny idea. Technically, your annoying bratty kid that won't shut up is an animal, someone should get their two-year-old classed as a service animal and troll restaurant owners that try to kick them out, bar owners that ban children, etc.

Like 10 years ago I had a part time second job as a mall security guard. I mostly worked overnight when the mall was closed so it was alright. I basically wandered around the dark mall or hung out on the roof, smoking cigarettes, and watched people trying to drunkenly drive out of Applebees. I also did a lot of community college homework.

But anyway, when I did work during operating hours, we were forbidden from questioning any animal's service qualifications. Someone won a court battle after feeling harassed, or something, I can't recall, but it was forbidden. I don't know if things have changed, but at the time you could have walked through the place with a pack of the meanest pitbulls on chains and we would have avoided you entirely.

Lumber Jack Off:CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.

It's not just SOP, it's the law. Originally it was allowed to ask three questions. Recently the law was amended to only allow two of the three -- "Does this animal help you with a disability?" and "How?" (the no-longer-permissible question is "Do you have a disability?")

The law explicitly does not require (or permit anyone else to require) the owner to show any paperwork, provide any information, or take any action other than answering the two (formerly three) permissible questions, precisely to avoid any possibility of harassment. (E.g. making the animal perform some feat, loudly nitpicking paperwork, etc.) I believe federal law also explicitly says an animal is not required to be indicated, marked or tagged in any way as a service animal, for the same reason.

(I have a friend whose wife has hearing problems, and has a hearing dog -- they deal with all this regularly.)

OgreMagi:TWX: Good good, we're just about to reach critical-mass, where it'll get so bad that it actually gets fixed.

/a couple of acquaintances breed and raise golden retrievers as service dogs//it takes probably 1/3 of the dog's life to get it trained properly///and a good portion of them don't end up getting good enough to use anyway

A friend of mine trains service dogs. The one she's training at the moment she doesn't think will make the final cut. "Too needy" were her exact words. However, the dog will make an awesome pet for some lucky kid one day. If I had the time for a dog, I'd take her. I'll stick with my cats. Who's needy requirements are limited to, "open the farking can, asshole!"

My inlaws took in puppies and retired guide dogs for the blind. Their favourite was a golden lab who flunked out for being too friendly.

Kensey:Lumber Jack Off: CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.

It's not just SOP, it's the law. Originally it was allowed to ask three questions. Recently the law was amended to only allow two of the three -- "Does this animal help you with a disability?" and "How?" (the no-longer-permissible question is "Do you have a disability?")

The law explicitly does not require (or permit anyone else to require) the owner to show any paperwork, provide any information, or take any action other than answering the two (formerly three) permissible questions, precisely to avoid any possibility of harassment. (E.g. making the animal perform some feat, loudly nitpicking paperwork, etc.) I believe federal law also explicitly says an animal is not required to be indicated, marked or tagged in any way as a service animal, for the same reason.

(I have a friend whose wife has hearing problems, and has a hearing dog -- they deal with all this regularly.)

Yep, this is the problem. That law virtually begs people to abuse it, so people will.

I have a neighbor with a very aggressive German Shepherd. Attempts by the community to get the dog impounded were not successful because the owner was able to claim it's a service dog. No one believes it, but no one wants to get sued either. It's a bullshiat law, and it needs to change to prevent abuse.

Haven't read the thread, so sorry if this has already been asked, but why is one no allowed to ask for proof? For any other privilege: hunting, fishing, driving on public roads, I would have to produce a license.

Second question: if someone were to know that a certain breed of dog or other animal could not *possibly* function as a true service animal, is there anything preventing an employee from simply saying: "Your purse-chihuahua is not a service animal; stop insulting my intelligence and get the hell out!"?

Kensey:Lumber Jack Off: CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.

It's not just SOP, it's the law. Originally it was allowed to ask three questions. Recently the law was amended to only allow two of the three -- "Does this animal help you with a disability?" and "How?" (the no-longer-permissible question is "Do you have a disability?")

The law explicitly does not require (or permit anyone else to require) the owner to show any paperwork, provide any information, or take any action other than answering the two (formerly three) permissible questions, precisely to avoid any possibility of harassment. (E.g. making the animal perform some feat, loudly nitpicking paperwork, etc.) I believe federal law also explicitly says an animal is not required to be indicated, marked or tagged in any way as a service animal, for the same reason.

(I have a friend whose wife has hearing problems, and has a hearing dog -- they deal with all this regularly.)

OgreMagi:TWX: OgreMagi: The biggest flaw I see is people might go through the online database searching for a service dog that matches their pet. Not sure how to prevent that.

I have a solution, issue the permit to the patient, not to the animal. That's how handicapped placards and plates work- they're issued to the patient by prescription and then that prescription is "filled" by the motor vehicle department, and when abused and actually caught, can result in fines.

Since service dogs and other service animals usually have clothing in some form on them identifying their status, require that the clothing item or the harness have the permit attached. No permit, no requirement to honor the animal as a service animal. Have the permit feature a picture of the patient too, so that permits can't be traded very easily.

There's a thriving online business selling fake service dog vests and certificates. Because the law currently prevents anyone from properly questioning credentials, there needs to be some process in place to verify the dog. Thus my suggestion.

Then license the patient, not the animal. Make the patient provide on demand state-issued ID that certifies them to use a guide dog or other service animal, and make the law reflect their need to provide that proof when asked, otherwise the property-rights of the tenant prevail.

I doubt that most patients that have gone through the process to get a license to have a service dog are going to 'fake it' with an untrained animal. Unlike driving, where the car is licensed in addition to the driver and cars are expected to be on the road, there's no expectation that an animal may be brought on to someone else's property. Licensing the patient would probably be enough since a lack of license means an automatic trespass warning from the tenant should they choose to do so.