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15:27:30 Are users really supposed to always set their their external format explicitly (to something less dumb than our default) by tweaking sb-impl::*default-external-format* or is there a better way that I'm missing?
15:33:55 (on Windows, in case that wasn't clear. I don't like the posix enviroment variable stuff things either, but at least I know about those. :-))
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15:42:56 is there no sensible default that is not a dumb default?
15:44:39 if we supported the BOM then maybe UTF-16 with BOM would be a clever default? I don't know
15:44:52 I'd vote for UTF-8, but I'm uncertain about the consequences.
15:45:14 I suspect (but don't know for certain) that the dumb default is actually the clever choice for FFI calls (!); that filenames should not use the external-format at all; but everything else needing external formats (i.e. reading those funny .asd files people have put into Quicklisp) ought to use :UTF-8 by default.
15:45:43 (Hoping for someone competent to confirm.)
15:50:08 afaik notepad puts BOM for UTF-8 files, too
15:52:27 yeah, I think there's no sane reason to use a BOM in UTF-8 ever, but Microsoft does it anyway.
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16:02:04 So. To those people who keep asking if and when Hunchentoot will work in SBCL, all I can say is that the easy-acceptor does _something_ here, so that's looking fine to me, and I don't know what else one would want to happen. WFM -- problem solved.
16:03:25 [Except for the fact that this whole emacs-on-windows-in-rdesktop combination is most aggravating. Don't know which component to blame, but would it be too much to ask to have a Meta key that doesn't simultaneously pop up the start menu?]
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17:07:47 lichtblau: ugh
17:10:00 "ugh?" What did I break? :-]
17:10:13 "ugh" is not what I'm hoping to hear right after having pushed to master!
17:12:56 That's unless you mean my windows issues -- having googled, it seems that Xorg is weird with Meta and Alt, and rdesktop people are aware that it doesn't work, but think it's not their fault that X is weird. IOW, broken by default, like all good software.
17:14:05 boms on linux are not recommended tho
17:14:14 afaik
17:18:54 ... and on the subject of "broken by default": The upcoming SBCL 1.1.1 is probably the worst SBCL for Windows yet.
17:19:13 does it have to be?
17:19:15 I'd like to release it like this though, because users should be aware of those remaining win32 kittens anyway, so it's not that I'm breaking something that was perfect before. And people will have to start testing things at some point anyway, so let's do that rather sooner than later.
17:19:24 i.e., can't we postpone?
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17:23:17 No need to postpone; worst case is that we would disable threads by default again. But I don't think that's actually helpful, because .
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17:51:39 Hey, quick question: Are we in code freeze, and if not when are we predicted to enter code freeze?
17:56:00 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #sbcl
17:57:33 haven't seen any freezes
17:58:01 Okay, thanks.
17:58:21 Just re-checking the stuff that I want to commit now.
17:58:33 Well, the first batch of stuff.
17:58:54 and the release was not too long ago, so i don't expect a freeze, but maybe i'm just used to less frequent releases
18:04:03 So, anything interesting happen while I wasn't paying attention?
18:07:05 Depends on what counts as interesting. I found it interesting to hear that some people were talking about a CMUCL ARM port.
18:07:26 i found it strange
18:08:04 I celebrated (quietly) having SBCL call_into_lisp to (defun !cold-init ()) and return to lose("CATS. CATS ARE NICE.") last night.
18:08:23 (On my Galaxy Note 10.1.)
18:09:42 *stassats* wants SBCL on his Nexus 7
18:09:44 nyef: exciting! What's your (rough) estimate of how many VOPs are implemented?
18:09:54 I think SPARC/Linux GENCGC is interesting, just making sure it still builds after forward-porting.
18:09:55 ccl stopped working on android 4.x, for some reason
18:10:59 hmm, I never bothered with Android CCL after all; so far I'm happy with Linux CCL on my Android.
18:11:00 grep define-vop src/compiler/arm/* | wc => 19.
18:11:50 One of those is for DEFINE-FULL-CALL, for which there are two uses, so 20. Plus the generic VOPs, including !DEFINE-TYPE-VOPs.
18:11:57 lichtblau: i figured a way to run it without rooting
18:12:14 but, ccl itself doesn't work
18:14:10 *lichtblau* Wasn't called rooting to install Linux on a Windows PC in the 90s, shouldn't be called rooting to blast CM over the stock firmware on an Android in the 10s.
18:14:31 well, it's there anyhow
18:15:17 but, i don't install CM or anything, just make root access for the stock firmware
18:16:29 Mmm. I have some "super user" application or another, and a debian chroot. I don't really need much else other than the stock system.
18:16:40 Stock firmware doesn't have the kernel features/modules I need.
18:17:05 yes, i'm just talking about running ccl, it's much easier when you have root access
18:17:25 but you can run it from java
18:18:05 stassats: surely gbyers would know how to get CCL/bionic to run on ICS/JB?
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18:18:47 well, every time i complained about ccl android i got "it's not a supported target, etc. etc."
18:19:40 so, instead of figuring things myself, i think it's better to spend the time on getting SBCL run on ARM
18:21:25 I'll share my port log and git branch once I run out of steam again, okay?
18:21:37 ok
18:22:07 With a bit of luck, the worst of it will be done by that point.
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18:28:57 perhaps something like the new chromebook would be a nice host for SBCL
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18:30:39 I'm hoping to get something usable and MIPS-based next.
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18:31:19 I don't know how we EVER got a working MIPS build, but I have a couple of patches in one of my trees that need forward porting and testing that should sort things out a bit.
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18:35:16 oh, is our MIPS port not functional?
18:35:35 When was the last time you've heard of a successful build?
18:36:06 well, there isn't many hackable mips machines
18:36:08 probably back when Thiemo was alive.
18:36:21 well, there's a nice 1.0.28 binary in the platform table!
18:36:28 ...2009 seems like yesterday
18:36:39 maybe some android mips tablets would do
18:36:42 Right, but I can't build 1.0.28 with that binary as an XC host.
18:37:21 Hackable MIPS machines are easy to come by, the problem is that the easy-to-get machines have basically no RAM and slow CPU clocks.
18:38:00 Takes hours for them to build SBCL.
18:38:40 I see. Would be cool if you could fix that!
18:38:56 How, starting a company to import Lemote boxes?
18:38:59 At least MIPS isn't as hopeless as Alpha. I got offered an Alpha, but even Debian doesn't support it anymore, so I had to politely decline.
18:39:41 Seriously, my current MIPS system is a Linksys E3000.
18:39:54 we sadly failed to find a gome for our dual alpha ~2 years ago as well. The corewar hills run much faster on slightly moldy x86, though.
18:40:11 nyef: order one on aliexpress and tell us how it went :-)
18:41:04 I was considering tekmote.nl.
18:41:50 Oh, wait, it's going to cost as much as a new Galaxy Note 10.1 and isn't nearly as capable? That's not good...
18:48:40 maybe someone who wants sbcl to run on it should donate one?
18:49:38 so, nyef and I will donate to each other? ;-)
18:50:32 Hrm. Possibly should have reset the commit authorship information on those. Too late now.
18:55:33 there's some Ainol NOVO 7 Basic android tablet, inexpensive
18:59:39 Hrm... Plausible!
19:02:10 Display resolution is trash, and I'd prefer more RAM, but definitely workable.
19:51:38 The Karbonn Smart Tab 1 has a little more oomph, CPU-wise.
19:53:43 there's 2 too
19:55:19 Mmm.
19:55:33 So, a choice of China or India.
20:02:05 sell note 10.1, buy both
20:06:48 Keeping note 10.1, for several reasons, one of which is the nice digitizer.
20:07:28 (Now, if I could just figure out where my spare stylus got to...)
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21:03:16 Thinking about it, a second reason why I'm keeping the note 10.1 is that I accidentally bricked my last ARM target machine.
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22:58:31 hm, found an older version of ccl for armdroid, and it works
22:59:59 I think I've figured out the bulk of how to get at my MIPS chroot environment.
23:00:52 Except for the details of actually starting the chroot, that is. But I have login details, procedures for enabling the login and getting the system to mount the disk. (-:
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23:09:45 *stassats`* isn't really excited by the working ccl, sbcl would be much more exciting
23:13:27 Well, it's not like you can't start porting it yourself.
23:13:46 right, but i don't want the duplication of effort
23:14:11 and besides, it's much better when somebody else is doing it
23:15:21 Heh. Are you sure about that last?
23:15:33 It's a very interesting, challenging task.
23:15:54 yeah, but there are many other interesting tasks
23:16:29 Mmm. Adding threading support for SPARC, maybe, now that we have GENCGC?
23:17:20 and i also would need to get commonqt working too, otherwise it's useless
23:17:49 other than running hunchentoot on it
23:18:53 That'd be enough for me to at least have a line of argument for having the boss get an E10k for running our app server on. (-:
23:19:47 (He suggested it, apparently in jest, some months back, but being able to say that it's now a somewhat viable option on the technical side would be amusing.)
23:24:59 *stassats`* just accessed hunchentoot running on the phone from the desktop