Transtopic wrote: with the appropriate investment in upgrading the existing network with new signalling and track infrastructure to ATO standards, it could match the performance of the metro trains.

You really need to disabuse yourself of that fanciful notion. It's not possible (even under the laws of physics, let alone any other factors) and it doesn't happen and won't happen anywhere else in the world. A double deck system with two-door trains is not going to process the same crowds at the same speeds in the same journey times as a high-performance single deck system (whether that's metro or S-Bahn). The only thing it can come closer on is to challenge the journey time by missing stops, which is self-defeating and discriminatory to commuters and communities along such a corridor.

We've been over this ad nauseum and neither I nor other people here want to continue the discussion, but you keep saying it even though that doesnt make it true. Double deckers don't have the acceleration because of their power to weight ratio (we're finding that a Sydney metro train can accelerate to 100 km/h in 40 seconds compared to over one minute with the most modern double deckers). A higher maximum speed in double deckers doesn't achieve anything towards raising average speed if the station spacings are less than 4 to 5 km (which they practically all are on the Sydney system). The dwell time issues (and being able to effectively load and fill the trains) are seriously different between the two types and it's facile to brush off that issue by saying it only applies to a few stations. They studied all this in Melbourne where they approached the subject three different times, even to the extent of running a prototype, and they came out in favour of single-deck trains because double-deckers hold up single-deckers when the two types are run together. Even John Dunn the double deck guru said it. I know we think we're superior in Sydney to Melbourne but you have to look at real world experience sometime.

What double-deckers do have going for them is more seating and this is an advantage that can be used on services with long journey times, which makes them ideal for interurban and suburban fringe services that have to cross the entire suburban area. That argument wouldn't apply to the proposed metro lines in far western Sydney because they are planned to be intra-suburban services predominantly feeding new centres that are to be developed in the region. Lets make a deal - I won't keep saying it if you don't keep saying it!

^The real-time train data wasn't working accurately due to all the delays hence why no display time until the next train. Large number of people waiting wouldn't be surprising since it would have been more than 30 mins since an Airport train had stopped. Another small note with the delays yesterday most trains on T8 line appeared to be Macarthur (limited stops) trains with very few Revesby (all-stops) so that may have also had an effect.

Transtopic wrote: with the appropriate investment in upgrading the existing network with new signalling and track infrastructure to ATO standards, it could match the performance of the metro trains.

You really need to disabuse yourself of that fanciful notion. It's not possible (even under the laws of physics, let alone any other factors) and it doesn't happen and won't happen anywhere else in the world. A double deck system with two-door trains is not going to process the same crowds at the same speeds in the same journey times as a high-performance single deck system (whether that's metro or S-Bahn). The only thing it can come closer on is to challenge the journey time by missing stops, which is self-defeating and discriminatory to commuters and communities along such a corridor.

No need to get your Knickers in a Knot Tony. I was merely referring to remarks made by Howard Collins before the last State Election, in the context of his remarks yesterday about some of the antiquated infrastructure still in use. They're his words, not mine. I certainly have no desire to get involved in any further argument on this issue and we could do without your diatribe. Chill it mate!

I have to chime in here. I see not a thing angsty about tonyp's post. He is making valid points about the advantages of traditional lighter metro type stock over Sydney's bloated double deckers no one else in the world uses the way we do here.
When I visited Europe for the first (and only) time 20 years ago, I was struck by the sense in the use of these lighter weight metro trains in all the cities I visited and the only place I saw trains like Sydney's was in Paris where they were only used appropriately for longer outer suburban lines while metro did the intensive inner ring work.
Meanwhile, we have the utter absurdity of metro being chosen to service a new line to an outlying area out in the sticks.
Sydney will absolutely always remain an inferior and dysfunctional freak show while insular money grubbing mindsets rule the roost here.

I couldn't imagine Howard Collins, with his UK/European background experience and knowledge, seriously thinking that the double deck system could match the performance of a metro. He would certainly have said that the performance of the double deck system can be improved, which is true. I notice that the bloke next to him is also a Pom as is the boss of the metro. Is there anybody upstairs in the railways who isn't a Pom nowadays? Well at least they must all understand about metros.

Swift wrote:I have to chime in here. I see not a thing angsty about tonyp's post. He is making valid points about the advantages of traditional lighter metro type stock over Sydney's bloated double deckers no one else in the world uses the way we do here.
When I visited Europe for the first (and only) time 20 years ago, I was struck by the sense in the use of these lighter weight metro trains in all the cities I visited and the only place I saw trains like Sydney's was in Paris where they were only used appropriately for longer outer suburban lines while metro did the intensive inner ring work.
Meanwhile, we have the utter absurdity of metro being chosen to service a new line to an outlying area out in the sticks.
Sydney will absolutely always remain an inferior and dysfunctional freak show while insular money grubbing mindsets rule the roost here.

Sorry Swift, but your comments seem to be contradictory. You obviously haven't been to other European cities, where there are U-Bahns and S-Bahns which service inner city and outer suburban regions respectively. In London we have the Underground and Overground which service inner and outer London. Paris is still the best model for Sydney, with the RER servicing the outer suburbs and the metro the inner city core. Whether it's DD or SD is beside the point.

I agree Paris (tatty metro stops aside) is utopia.
If only Sydney had metro servicing the inner west and eastern suburbs among others and DD outside 15km or so and beyond for our urban sprawl, including the NW metro line. That should be converted to DD while Bankstown line gets its metro conversion!!
The CSELR is here now and that is a positive step, cost aside. They need to shave the woeful proposed end to end running duration any way they can.

You blokes need to climb out of your pigeonholes and recognise that the best solution for Sydney is not Paris' or London's or anywhere else's, but the solution that Sydney works out for its own specific circumstances, picking and choosing from the best available technologies and methodologies to achieve the optimum outcome. There is no such thing as a "typical metro" or a "typical suburban" or whatever, anywhere in the world. Every system has a set of distinct characteristics unique to the needs of that city. The only thing in common (in this discussion) is that they're heavy-rail commuter systems.

If you look back through the documented history of both the Sydney and Perth projects, they started from the point that both cities wanted to introduce a heavy-rail Rapid Transit System, with the characteristics that go with that - including higher capacity, faster journeys and stopping at all stops so that all of the urban area was serviced on an equal basis (the latter is a signifcant urban planning issue). They then looked at the technology and methodology needed to achieve that and of course that lay primarily in the S-Bahn/U-Bahn/Metro methods but with characteristics also borrowed from "suburban" rail. Then all of that was melded together to achieve a final outcome that meets the original objectives. Don't get hung up on the word "metro" which the NSW government has chosen to brand the project, you're responding like bulls to a red rag. Burn the textbooks. It's a heavy-rail system with a taylored solution to a specific set of issues, just as it is in Perth.

Fleet Lists wrote:Why do we have to get the observations thread bogged down in discussions on various projects which are already being discussed on other threads?

No reason, other than some are determined to force their opinions endlessly on others, and for reasons unbeknown feel the need to bring them up at any opportunity. It is the same people making the same arguments on multiple threads, none of which are ever likely to convince those opposed.

All for robust discussion, but this flogging a dead horse, going round in circles stuff is getting tedious. Not one for censorship, but perhaps a more strong arm approach by admin by deleting offending posts is required to force the issue given that previous requests not to do so continue to fall on deaf ears?

I may be partly to blame here for which I apologise, but I have no desire to continue this meaningless debate with tonyp on this thread or any other for that matter. It's already been done to death and is unlikely to be resolved one way or the other until the reality strikes home in time. Let's just stick with Railway Observations.

I've noticed someone is building a rail line on the Moorebank side of the northern approach to the ARTC Southern Sydney freight line flyover at Glenfield heading east towards Moorebank why is there a line branching off there and what would the line be for

Campbelltown busboy wrote:I've noticed someone is building a rail line on the Moorebank side of the northern approach to the ARTC Southern Sydney freight line flyover at Glenfield heading east towards Moorebank why is there a line branching off there and what would the line be for

The Opal patronage data has at last been updated to June (it was sitting at April for ages), so it's now possible to see annual patronage figures for 2018-19. However, disappointingly, the metro data that many were expecting to see isn't loaded there yet.

I have to take back what I said about a year ago that Sydney train patronage has finally exceeded the maximum patronage carried by the former Sydney tram system (404 million). I was wrong anyway because at that time the NSW Trains (interurban) figure was included with the Sydney Trains figure, so the metropolitan train patronage was never higher - but I think the metro will close the gap a bit in the next year.

From the data, the North Shore Line has grown by 45.7% or 1.542mil since last year, compared to the range of -0.8–3.1% that the major lines experienced. Almost all of that is due to the metro beyond Epping as Station Link already accounted for the ECRL in the train stats.

Thank you. Funnily enough it never occurs to me to see metro as a different mode! It's heavy rail and belongs alongside the heavy rail systems.

Ferries have always had the constraint of a finite catchment. They've been hovering around that sort of a figure since the 1930s (after all the bridges were built), except for a blip during WW2. More foreshore high-rise development might push the figure up a bit but not much.

This weekend from 8pm Friday to last service on Sunday evening, there are buses replacing Southern Highlands trains. I was looking at the schedule for a potential trip tomorrow, and it seems quite odd that route 7SH (Moss Vale-Bowral-Mittagong-Campbelltown) is running tonight, replacing the quiet late night services, yet on the weekend the quickest route running is the 9SH, which is the same route but with Picton added in as well.

You might think what's one more station, but the deviation off the freeway to service Picton only adds an extra 17km in distance to each trip, so the added time is not inconsiderable.

I remember during past shutdowns that there had been a proper express route all weekend, but if that's the best offered then between that and having to catch an extra two slow suburban rail buses to get to Liverpool from where I could finally catch a train to my actual destination, I think I'll just drive tomorrow!

Interesting that quite a few Tangaras are running T2 & T8 services this weekend, due to trackwork.
Seems rather rare, as I haven't seen Tangaras on these lines for quite some time now, at all.
Here is Anytrip link: https://anytrip.com.au/region/nsw?followVehicle

Sydney Trains is trying a new thing at Town Hall and telling people to use 325/324/333 as a replacement for the Eastern Suburbs line being shut down (instead of only rail replacement buses). On a 333 and absolute chockers set down only