The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to subjugate nations and satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.

Yeah, they did all that without co-opting saints.

Picking on the Catholics for assimilating native cultural traditions is a slippery slope for us Orthodox. Yule logs anyone? Pisanky designs? Just sayin.....

I'm not arguing that making St. Olga equal to the Apostles is co-opting any Apostle and the Roman Catholics redefined St. Joseph according to an Aztec God. The RCs have spent the next 5 centuries spreading that misrepresentation to the billions of her adherents.

I think some of the advice you're receiving is along the lines of "People in glass houses ..." In other words, if we listen to certain elements in academics, all saints were nothing more than transmutations of gods and all theology was nothing more than transmutation of myth. If we're eager to encourage this view against our religious enemies, then we're also encouraging its use against ourselves.

Logged

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism? A few dozen? few hundred? few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power. The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?

Regardless of how strong Persia was from the late 4th century AD (when Nestorianism appeared) to the advent of Islam, what Nestorians Islam didn't wipe out, Genghis Khan and the Mongols essentially reduced them to the very low numbers we have today.

Exactly. Now, why are you making a comparison in numbers today?

Just to show how secular power has allowed for the survival of heresies.

How could it demonstrate that? You're holding up for contrast two heresies, one favored by the Bishop of Rome that has gone on to do very well and one favored by the largest political power in Asia that has gone on to dwindle away.

Logged

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to subjugate nations and satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.

Yeah, they did all that without co-opting saints.

Picking on the Catholics for assimilating native cultural traditions is a slippery slope for us Orthodox. Yule logs anyone? Pisanky designs? Just sayin.....

I'm not arguing that making St. Olga equal to the Apostles is co-opting any Apostle and the Roman Catholics redefined St. Joseph according to an Aztec God. The RCs have spent the next 5 centuries spreading that misrepresentation to the billions of her adherents.

I think some of the advice you're receiving is along the lines of "People in glass houses ..." In other words, if we listen to certain elements in academics, all saints were nothing more than transmutations of gods and all theology was nothing more than transmutation of myth. If we're eager to encourage this view against our religious enemies, then we're also encouraging its use against ourselves.

Oh, yes, you got your points of reference from that Aztec great-great-great-great-granduncle of yours that keeps coming uninvited to Thanksgiving dinner.

Logged

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Therefore, Joseph, prefigured in Amram, is also a secondary figure to the prominence of the Virgin.

And were is such speculation confirmed by an official source?

This desire on this forum for 'sources' is problematic. I daresay that no well brought up Orthodox child, immersed in the Church, regardless of ethnic tradition would not 'know' that the Church teaches that the Exodus prefigures the coming of Christ and our Salvation from death through Christ and that St. Joseph is secondary figure to that of the Theotokas. BUT.... the name Joseph is among the most common of Slavic baptismal names given to the first born male child ... indeed Joseph and Mary were almost always found in a family of many siblings. So, anecdotally speaking, the role of Joseph in the rearing of the Christ-child was respected and the model of the Holy Family did have a place in Orthodox cultures - at least in Eastern Europe. Any kid who was an altar server 'back in the day' during the All Soul's Saturday litanies at most Slavic parishes will confirm the numerous repetition of those names in the parish family remembrances.

Knowing no Joseph, having no ancestors with such a name. It was a Catholic name.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

This desire on this forum for 'sources' is problematic. I daresay that no well brought up Orthodox child, immersed in the Church, regardless of ethnic tradition would not 'know' that the Church teaches that the Exodus prefigures the coming of Christ and our Salvation from death through Christ and that St. Joseph is secondary figure to that of the Theotokas.

BUT.... the name Joseph is among the most common of Slavic baptismal names given to the first born male child ... indeed Joseph and Mary were almost always found in a family of many siblings. So, anecdotally speaking, the role of Joseph in the rearing of the Christ-child was respected and the model of the Holy Family did have a place in Orthodox cultures - at least in Eastern Europe. Any kid who was an altar server 'back in the day' during the All Soul's Saturday litanies at most Slavic parishes will confirm the numerous repetition of those names in the parish family remembrances.

Interesting, though dare I say the frequency of Joseph as a baptismal name must be a phenomenon of the region you came from.

Among Greeks and Russians, in my experience, Joseph is very rarely given as a baptismal name, but is more frequent as a name given at monastic tonsure. Also, I would be hard-pressed to recall the name Joseph being read out at general commemorations on Soul Saturdays in my experience in Greek and Russian churches. OTOH, Maria is exceedingly common among both Greeks and Russians.

Scripture clearly describes St. Joesph as Christ's father. The Orthodox seem to come close to denying this with their insistence as reading "father" as something closer to "house man."

Not all Orthodox. Some.

Look, characters in the Gospels refer to Joseph as Jesus' "father" and "parent", as Mary's "betrothed" and "husband", and refer to Jesus as Joseph's "son". But the Gospels also go to some effort to explain how he had nothing to do with the conception of Christ, how Jesus was "the son, as was supposed, of Joseph", etc., and all of that is absolutely critical, its importance cannot be overstated because it touches upon the person of Christ. To refer to Joseph as "husband of Mary", as Jesus' "father", etc., then, is legitimate if we keep the whole testimony of the Gospels in mind because then we won't think of "husband" and "father" and "parent" in the usual sense. There was nothing "usual" about this family. But it was still a family, with a husband and a wife who were parents of a child. To reduce him to a "house man", someone who was needed only to perform a role so that things would appear legitimate in the eyes of society is ultimately an affront to God, not to mention a dismissal of the testimony of Scripture and of people in the Gospels who ought to know something about what was what. Fortunately, Orthodox tradition does not do such a thing, even if our veneration for St Joseph is not as pronounced as it became more recently in Roman Catholicism.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches? How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"? How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

Quote

...while how many people believe in Nestorianism? A few dozen? few hundred? few thousand?

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches? How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"? How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches? How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"? How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism? A few dozen? few hundred? few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power. The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?

Regardless of how strong Persia was from the late 4th century AD (when Nestorianism appeared) to the advent of Islam, what Nestorians Islam didn't wipe out, Genghis Khan and the Mongols essentially reduced them to the very low numbers we have today.

It is my impression that the Church of the East flourished under the Mongol Khan's. I think you are referring to Timur (Tamerlane) who obliterated the Nestorians almost out of existence.

There is a lot to be learned from the history of the Nestorians (both for the Roman Catholic in the West, and the Orthodox in the East).

Logged

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs. If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches?How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"?How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

You didn't answer my questions.

With those kinds of questions, I don't think anyone knows the answers. Suffice to say that on Sunday, hundreds of millions of RCs (and Protestants who've kept the Filioque in their creeds) will recite the Filioque (in Latin and other languages - except for Greek) without understanding the doctrine or even knowing what they're saying.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism? A few dozen? few hundred? few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power. The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?

Regardless of how strong Persia was from the late 4th century AD (when Nestorianism appeared) to the advent of Islam, what Nestorians Islam didn't wipe out, Genghis Khan and the Mongols essentially reduced them to the very low numbers we have today.

It is my impression that the Church of the East flourished under the Mongol Khan's. I think you are referring to Timur (Tamerlane) who obliterated the Nestorians almost out of existence.

There is a lot to be learned from the history of the Nestorians (both for the Roman Catholic in the West, and the Orthodox in the East).

In Pre-Islamic Iran, I believe Nestorianism was the fastest-growing religion and would probably have overtaken Zoroastrianism if the Sassanids continued to be incompetent and the Prophet never spread Islam.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches?How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"?How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

You didn't answer my questions.

With those kinds of questions, I don't think anyone knows the answers. Suffice to say that on Sunday, hundreds of millions of RCs (and Protestants who've kept the Filioque in their creeds) will recite the Filioque (in Latin and other languages - except for Greek) without understanding the doctrine or even knowing what they're saying.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches?How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"?How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

You didn't answer my questions.

With those kinds of questions, I don't think anyone knows the answers. Suffice to say that on Sunday, hundreds of millions of RCs (and Protestants who've kept the Filioque in their creeds) will recite the Filioque (in Latin and other languages - except for Greek) without understanding the doctrine or even knowing what they're saying.

That's what I thought.

Er, wasn't the Filioque developed in reaction to distinguish the Church from the Arianism of the Kingdom of the Visigoths?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches?How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"?How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

You didn't answer my questions.

With those kinds of questions, I don't think anyone knows the answers. Suffice to say that on Sunday, hundreds of millions of RCs (and Protestants who've kept the Filioque in their creeds) will recite the Filioque (in Latin and other languages - except for Greek) without understanding the doctrine or even knowing what they're saying.

That's what I thought.

All this past 3 or 4 pages of this thread because someone gave me a Holy Family icon - reflective of a unrealistic and unattainable family structure. I want to throw the icon away; however, my mother likes it.

All this past 3 or 4 pages of this thread because someone gave me a Holy Family icon...

Three or four posts, maybe, but not the past three or four pages.

Quote

...reflective of a unrealistic and unattainable family structure.

There are plenty of families where there is a husband, a wife, and a child who love each other. There are plenty of families where this sadly doesn't exist, but it's not like it's an unrealistic and unattainable goal.

There are plenty of families where there is a husband, a wife, and a child who love each other. There are plenty of families where this sadly doesn't exist, but it's not like it's an unrealistic and unattainable goal.

Nope. Sol's mother has put pious sentimentality over everything else. This is not to judge her, as large numbers of folks do it, in honest ignorance. It takes a lot of patient, careful education to correct it, but it is possible, both at an individual level, and at parish level.

As for the claim of iconoclasm, it's not iconoclasm to do away with an image which was not a proper icon in the first place.

Nope. Sol's mother has put pious sentimentality over everything else. This is not to judge her, as large numbers of folks do it, in honest ignorance. It takes a lot of patient, careful education to correct it, but it is possible, both at an individual level, and at parish level.

As for the claim of iconoclasm, it's not iconoclasm to do away with an image which was not a proper icon in the first place.

Nope. Sol's mother has put pious sentimentality over everything else. This is not to judge her, as large numbers of folks do it, in honest ignorance. It takes a lot of patient, careful education to correct it, but it is possible, both at an individual level, and at parish level.

As for the claim of iconoclasm, it's not iconoclasm to do away with an image which was not a proper icon in the first place.

The argument of every iconoclast.

You keep saying that. So please enlighten us poor ignorants on why the image posted earlier expresses proper Orthodox doctrine and theology, and why it is suitable for veneration by Orthodox believers.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

The first is from that repository of schlock, Trinity Stores (which also distributes the works of Robert Lentz); the second is Betsy Porter's take on a Prosopon School special. Miss Porter is also the painter of the "holy mermaid".

Here's the Prosopon version of Holy Silence (which is uncanonical on several levels, BTW):

Why do they always make the poor Theotokos all squared off and neckless?

More seriously, you've nailed a major flaw in this composition: it is very easy to interpret the winged figure as being the Mother of God, because of the figure of Christ in a mandorla, the veil and the three stars of ever-virginity on it. Unfortunately, the Prosoponites, including the founder of the outfit, are particularly resistant to correction, even when great errors like this are made.

Why do they always make the poor Theotokos all squared off and neckless?

More seriously, you've nailed a major flaw in this composition: it is very easy to interpret the winged figure as being the Mother of God, because of the veil and the three stars of ever-virginity on it. Unfortunately, the Prosoponites, including the founder of the outfit, are particularly resistant to correction, even when great errors like this are made.

oh ....wow...its her -face- too....seriously if you didn't read the text....(and clearly i didn't)

Logged

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople.

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed. Over a billion people believe in the filioque...

Out of that one billion plus people, how many people understand the doctrine which Filioque teaches?How many of them even know of the term "Filioque"?How many of them know the (interpolated) Creed without having to read it from a page in a book?

The RCs teach each successive generation of their adherents to say the Filioque. Some Protestant denominations also say the Filioque given that they kept some parts of Catholic teaching when breaking up with Roman Catholics.

You didn't answer my questions.

With those kinds of questions, I don't think anyone knows the answers. Suffice to say that on Sunday, hundreds of millions of RCs (and Protestants who've kept the Filioque in their creeds) will recite the Filioque (in Latin and other languages - except for Greek) without understanding the doctrine or even knowing what they're saying.

That's what I thought.

Er, wasn't the Filioque developed in reaction to distinguish the Church from the Arianism of the Kingdom of the Visigoths?

I was out for some time and normally I would have locked the thread and split off some of the posts, since I thought it would have made for a good discussion outside this thread, which should be a just-for-fun posting of the silly non-canonical (arguably for the most part that is) icons and comments on them.

In any case, I'm glad it's back to that. For future reference, I would prefer that if you feel like the discussion can get longer or contentious that it could be taken to a new thread.

God bless.

Mina

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.