Supplement Marketing on Steroids by Alan Aragon

In January of this year I ran a guest article by Alan Aragon that was An Objective Comparison of Chocolate Milk and Surge Recovery. If nothing else, that article may have been the most heavily commented and debated article on the site. Well, last week Alan asked me if I’d run another guest piece by him and this is it. Like the chocolate milk piece, I expect it to generate similar amounts of controversy.

On which note, to facilitate discussion, I’ve turned off comment moderation for this article. Alan will be checking in on the comments regularly and this way folks won’t have to wait for me to get around to moderating them for their comments to appear. I only ask that people keep it civil and no trolling. I can and will still manually delete inappropriate comments after the fact if people get rambunctious. I will not be responding to comments, this is Alan’s piece not mine.

And for those of you who aren’t swayed by the marketing hype and want more scientifically based information on changing body composition, I’d refer you to Alan’s monthly Research Review. He examined both new and older studies of relevance in detail and you won’t be disappointed by the content.

Supplement Marketing on Steroids

by Alan Aragon

Bold claims vs. realistic expectations

A T-nation article was recently brought to my attention by a flood of emails. Folks expressed everything from awe to outrage, but the biggest sentiment was disbelief. “I, Bodybuilder” is in the form of a conversation between staff writer Nate Green and the owner of Biotest, Tim Patterson. It’s a prelude to the formal release of an upcoming supplement called Anaconda.

Is the article unintentionally humorous to discerning minds? Yes. Is any of it supposed to be tongue-in-cheek? Probably not. Does it read like one big, hairy advertisement? Yes. However, to the majority of the T-nation forum members, it probably reads like the Second Coming of the Lord.

To quote the video on the article’s opening page, the product/protocol was “developed out of a black-ops bodybuilding project” where the user can experience “muscle mass being built as fast as humanly possible.”

This hyped-up marketing script is business as usual. But, make no mistake about it; a lot of kids are going to be staking their entire sense of self-worth on the effectiveness of the magic bullet. Here are the claims made in the video on the article’s opening page as well as in print on the 3rd page:

In contrast to the above, here’s a review of what I’ve observed as realistic rates of muscle gain according to training status. Keep in mind that these figures are based on what I’ve seen in the last 15 years in the field working with mostly drug-free athletes:

As you can see, the T-nation claims are infinitely more exciting than the expectations I’ve set for my clients and students. Some quick math reveals that they’re promising muscle gains averaging at roughly 3.5 lbs per week, or about 14 lbs per month. That’s over 4 times the typical rate I’ve observed in novices, and at least 15 times the rate I’ve observed in advanced trainees.

Let’s step back for a second and look at the big picture. It’s rare for a fully-grown, skeletally mature adult in his early twenties or older to put on more than 50 lbs of muscle during an entire training career. Just imagine a college graduate weighing a relatively lean 185 transforming into a muscular 235-pounder by the time he’s in his mid to late 20’s. This is a very formidable feat.

Just how respectable is it? I’ll list the competition stats of all 12 Mr. Olympias (for those living in a cave, the Mr. Olympia is the most prestigious title in bodybuilding):

The Mr. Olympia Winners

Name

Years Won

Height

Competition Weight

Dexter Jackson

2008 (Current)

5’6.5″

230 lb.

Jay Cutler

2006,2007

5’9″

255 lb.

Ronnie Coleman

1998-2005

5’10”

270 lb.

Dorian Yates

1992-1997

5’10”

255 lb.

Lee Haney

1984-1991

5’11”

235 lb.

Samir Bannout

1983

5’8″

210 lb.

Chris Dickerson

1982

5’6″

190 lb.

Franco Colombu

1976, 1981

5’4″

185 lb.

Arnold

1970-1975, 1980

6’1″

230 lb.

Frank Zane

1977-1979

5’9″

185 lb.

Sergio Oliva

1967-1969

5’8″

225 lb.

Larry Scott

1965-1966

5’7″

205 lb

*These heights and weights are averages from various sources online.

For anyone who disagrees that our lean 235 lb example is impressive, consider the fact that only 3 of the 12 Mr. Olympias had a competition weight that significantly exceeded 235 lbs. Keep in mind that there’s a very good chance that NONE of the Olympia winners were drug-free. When you consider that these guys won the genetic lottery to begin with, then enhanced their supernormal potential with multiple drugs, the sobering limits of the drug-free, genetically mediocre majority become apparent.

So, looking back at the T-nation claims, it’s downright comical that they’re claiming about 2-3 year’s worth of gains in 2 months or less. If they didn’t flat-out fabricate, they definitely exaggerated while omitting a few important details. It’s possible for a scant handful of genetically blessed individuals to gain lean mass at the rates they listed, but the majority of these cases are rebound weight gains after prolonged dieting phases involving substantial weight loss.

The said rebound weight gain is typically accompanied by the honeymoon phase of creatine and/or drugs. However, one of the claims is that Kevin Norbert lost 14 lbs of fat while 24 net lbs was gained. So, we’re talking 38 lbs of new muscle in 8 weeks? Give me a frickin’ break, guys. Later on in the article, the exorbitant claims relent a little bit. I’ll quote Patterson directly:

Specifically, from using these methods, we expect the average lifter to gain about 20 pounds of muscle from his first 15-week program — hopefully more — and keep all of it.

I’m defining our average guy as an in-shape 175-pound lifter who’s accustomed to hard training, who’s totally committed to working hard, and who wants to build a lot of muscle mass as fast as humanly possible.

Research Shakes its Head

Now their attention-grabbing 14 lbs per month claim at the start of the article (illustrated by the results of the 3 ‘gifted’ bodybuilder dudes) is reduced to about 5.3 lbs per month on the last page. Still, this figure is about double the average I’ve observed in rank novices, and they’re setting this expectation for trainees “accustomed to hard lifting”. Fine, but how does this hold up against the research? Let’s compare these expectations with the results of athletes on anabolic/androgenic drugs. Let me quote a comprehensive review by Hartgens and Kuiper [1]:

Although many strength athletes frequently report increments of about 10–15kg of bodyweight due to AAS administration, such alterations have not been documented in well designed prospective studies. Most studies show that bodyweight may increase by 2–5kg as a result of short-term (<10 weeks) AAS use. The most pronounced average gain of bodyweight was reported by Casner and coworkers after 6 weeks of stanozolol administration [7 kg in 6 weeks]. However, in a case report, an increase of 12.7kg over a 2-year AAS administration period was registered.

The above quote is worth re-reading enough times until it sinks in. The key point is bolded. The greatest drug-enhanced gains seen in the scientific literature are 7 kg (15.4 lbs) in 6 weeks, or about 2.5 lbs per week. This is roughly a pound less per week than the claims made at the start of the article, and a pound more than the expectations set for the ‘regular guys’ at the end.

However, it’s not at all fair to use the highest recorded drug-enhanced rates of gain as a benchmark. Reiterating the above review, the norms for drug-enhanced gains in the short term (within 10 weeks) are 2-5 kg (4.4-11 lbs), and roughly 12.7 kg (27.9 lbs) over 2 years. The latter two figures collectively average out to a monthly gain of 0.9-1.1 lbs. Let me repeat, all of these figures were achieved with drugs.

To single out the population we’re discussing, I combed through Hartgens and Kuiper’s review for studies strictly on drug-enhanced bodybuilders, and the average rate of gain was 3.4 kg (7.5 lbs) in 8-10 weeks This amounts to 0.83 lb per week, or 3.3 lbs per month.

Assuming T-nation’s expectation of the ‘regular’ population’s gain of 5.3 lbs per month (1.3 lb per week), this rate is still about 38% faster than what’s been observed in drug-enhanced bodybuilders. Keep in mind, creatine supplementation for roughly 12 weeks has been demonstrated to cause an average gain of about 2 kg over non-supplemented conditions [2].

So even if we assumed an additive effect of creatine plus anabolics/androgenics, we’d be looking at a gain of roughly 3.7 lb per month. The gains T-nation promises are still roughly 30% faster than this.

Another research example of drug-assisted gains is a year-long case study by Alén and Häkkinen, who examined the stats and details of an elite bodybuilder [3]. During the course of a year, his fat-free mass increased from 83 to 90 kg (182.6 to 198 lb), which is a gain of 15.4 lb. He used anabolic/androgenic drugs throughout the study, with the exception of 4 weeks off in the middle of the 12 month period.

So, if 15.4 lbs of lean mass in a year is all this genetically gifted, drug-enhanced, international-level bodybuilder can muster, what makes the genetically average, drug-free, non-newbie, non-rebounding trainee think he can exceed that in less than 4 months? Only the Biotest staff knows the secret.

Back Down to Earth

Let’s bring things back to reality. If we’re figuring on a 5-year span with minimal lapses in program compliance with the goal of going from a mortal 185 to a Olympian 235, then the simple math is about 10 lbs of muscle gained per year on average. Can a novice gain double that rate in his first year? Yes.

However, heading toward the advanced stages, gains happen at half of this rate, and progressively less as your genetic potential draws closer. Speaking of which, perhaps the most exhaustive work on the topic of genetic potential for muscular gain in drug-free trainees has been done by Casey Butt. You can read more at his website The WeighTrainer – Your Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements.

Nate Green: Nick ended up gaining 20 pounds of new muscle and increasing his bench press by 55 pounds, and that’s addictive.Tim Patterson: After experiencing these kinds of results, from week to week, it’s impossible to be satisfied with anything else. These guys are hooked — we’re all totally hooked — and simply refuse to train any other way.Nate Green: I can’t give you any failures, because there are none at this point.Tim Patterson: Oh, I’m sure there will be a couple of dozen pus-filled Internet moron-trolls who can’t wait to prove how they ‘got nothing from loaded insulin surges and HTH, and all you really need is ‘chocolate milk and a banana.’

See, scientifically unsupported talk is cheap. On the other hand, buying into bold marketing claims can be expensive; it’s $80 bucks for a bottle of Anaconda. The name’s appropriate, since it sounds like a good way to put your wallet in a chokehold.

Comments

Comments

Unfortunately, most are going to read into this shit and believe it blindly. There are so many who believe t-nation(or t-muscle?) or whatever they call themselves really are muscle building elitist’s. Heh, it makes me laugh out loud when I think about it, really.

I am tired of their bullshit claims and I’m sick of watching them mislead the newbies on every front. All they do is pump them full of crap, then take their money. I hope this product is a flop and they end up eating their words.

Rob on
August 20th, 2009 10:23 am

Surely they’ve now done enough to get advertising standards on their asses?

Great article Alan, you clearly put a lot of time and energy into writing it.

It really is a shame that if an advertisement for Nike shoes said “you can increase your jumping height by 17 inches in 2 weeks, and reduce your 40 meter time by 2.4 seconds!”, they would likely be fined and removed from the air by the FCC…yet claims like this happen on a daily basis in the world of supplement marketing.

As someone who’s spent entirely too much money on supplements in years past, I hope that one day the manufacturers of these products will be held accountable to the people they’re defrauded.

The people pimping this product are quite (well, more like exactly) similar to prostitutes, since they too are selling their selves.

People seem to do whatever it takes these days to make money.

TonyK on
August 20th, 2009 12:02 pm

Alan,

Thanks for the article. You have a terrific website BTW!

Jack on
August 20th, 2009 12:29 pm

The wisdom of Mr. Aragon (with an assist from Mr. McDonald….thanks for your website, Lyle!) shines through yet again.

Jason on
August 20th, 2009 1:40 pm

We all know they just need to take Xtend to get those kinds of results, right guys?
I am being VERY sarcastic.

Art on
August 20th, 2009 1:40 pm

Alan,

Where do you fall on the issue of whole food choices versus supplements pre or post training? Besides avoiding supplement company hype, I know a lot of people aren’t keen on using nutritionally devoid stuff over simple choices like berries and other fruit + either a whey powder or even whole foods like eggs.

WHat would be your most current very general guidelines that would be most effective for serious lifters seeking quality mass gains? I realize you’d get a lot more detailed with an individual paying client, but if you have any more general guidelines that follow your philosophy, those would be appreciated.

Chris on
August 20th, 2009 2:20 pm

Is it o.k. to have a man-crush on Alan Aragon? hehehe

Oh, and Art, you’ll notice Alan preaches whole food for the majority of the people out there. Pay for his research review, or check out some of his posts in the nutrition forum on BB.com.

Alan, I’m kind of surprised you didn’t write an article like this after the crazy extend study that kind of flew under the radar.

jason on
August 20th, 2009 3:08 pm

Some of the Gaynation forumites are a disgrace. They don’t even believe the board is moderated.

PlankIt on
August 20th, 2009 3:28 pm

Great article! I hope you do a follow up when they publish the ingredient list.

Wazzup on
August 20th, 2009 3:48 pm

I thought the name for the new supplement very appropriate… Anaconda = snake (oil).

Chris — the Xtend study isn’t available in full text yet, as far as I know. But the results were a little bit strange; if I recall correctly, an extra 7g BCAA + a little bit of glutamine & citrulline malate made a shit-ton of difference over just whey — all this on top of a pre-existent high protein diet in both treatments? Makes you say “hmmm”. I’ve always suspected that Marc Lobliner puts a shot of his own mojo in each batch of Xtend, and that’s what makes it work so well.

Art – I’m finishing up a client’s plan, I’ll get to your Q soon as I’m done; I don’t wanna half-ass the answer to that..

Redlefty on
August 20th, 2009 4:44 pm

Alan puts the jam in my jelly roll.

And by the way, jelly rolls are how I get my “loaded insulin surges” like the ones T-nation heralds. But mine are $1.99 instead of $80.

Maybe T-Rag finally made such a ridiculous claim that even impressionable college students can’t even buy into this Snake Oil product.

sammy on
August 20th, 2009 5:11 pm

the question is how can supplement companies be allowed to make all these claims? its false marketing and they are scamming thousands of people (including young kids).

Frank on
August 20th, 2009 5:16 pm

everyone is confused by a simple spelling mistake in the original article.

Its Loaded Insulin Syringes, not Insulin Surges

Galaxie John on
August 20th, 2009 6:26 pm

Oh my, oh my! I’m so glad that was published! I used to respect t-nation, and still take a look on the site daily, but they truely are off the track right now.
Thibaudeau should be ashame to lend his name to such a lie. That’s gonna take his credibility to the floor.
I guess we all come down to be whore when it comes to making some dirty money.
t-nation is just going down, down, down.
Thanks so much Alan for the enlightning, and Lyle for making this public!

And by the way, anybody interested in nutrition and science should subscribe to Alan’s research review. It worth it SO MUCH.

“Where do you fall on the issue of whole food choices versus supplements pre or post training? Besides avoiding supplement company hype, I know a lot of people aren’t keen on using nutritionally devoid stuff over simple choices like berries and other fruit + either a whey powder or even whole foods like eggs.”

^^^^Food choices vs supplements (ie, whole food vs protein powder) boils down to individual preference & gastric tolerance. Not a whole lot more than that – other than possibly schedule constraints (ie, guys who have to train immediately upon waking may benefit from the ease of digestion of a liquid prot/carb meal as opposed to a solid one). Endurance athletes are a whole other animal who generally can benefit from mid-training powder instead of mid-training prime rib. But I’ll emphasize that everyone differs on this, and for general lifting purposes, amount is vastly more important than type or form. With that said, liquid prot/carb drinks are an easy & sometimes more convenient way to get the job done for pre & postworkout meals.

“WHat would be your most current very general guidelines that would be most effective for serious lifters seeking quality mass gains? I realize you’d get a lot more detailed with an individual paying client, but if you have any more general guidelines that follow your philosophy, those would be appreciated.”

^^^^Very generally speaking here… I ballpark stuff at a quarter of your ideal or target bodyweight in carb & protein grams on both sides of the workout (up to half of your target BW in carb grams for those who can afford to be more liberal with their carb intake). Keep in mind that with BW, I’m speaking in lbs, not kg. Assuming that the training bout is roughly an hour, as long as you get the meals in within roughly an hour of the start & the end of the training bout (up to 2 hrs if the preworkout meal is large & solid food), you’re good. Don’t get me wrong, if you exceed an hour’s lag on either side of the bout without ingesting anything, it’s not like your muscles are gonna fly off of your bones. An important point to drive home is that for the typical weight training bout lasting roughly an hour, nutrient timing is way overrated. It takes a distant backseat to hitting your macronutrient totals by the end of the day. For continuous endurance-type training bouts passing 90 minutes & nearing the 2-hr mark (& beyond), the right ballpark for mid-training nutrition is roughly 8-15g protein & 30-60g carbs per hour (the latter has some wiggle room for debate).

Andrew on
August 20th, 2009 6:31 pm

Alan- You said “up to half of your target BW in carb grams for those who can afford to be more liberal with their carb intake”.

For those who can afford to be more liberal, is this 1/2 in total (1/4+1/4) or 1/2 on each side (1/2+1/2)?

Andrew — 1/4 pre + 1/2 post is what I was referring to in the more liberal carb scenario. But yeah, I’ve seen 1/2 pre work just fine, as long as it’s ingested far enough out from the start of the trainng bout. Otherwise you might risk it coming back up during training.

Kyle on
August 20th, 2009 6:42 pm

Just for shiggles I posted the link to your article over in estrogen-nation. They have over 15 pages of posts from the lemmings fawning over this supplement/program.

In typical t-nation forum fashion where posts are pre-moderated, I get this private message from a mod that says,

“We edited your post because we spend an awful lot of money maintaining this site – on the order of a couple of million dollars a year – and we’d prefer that customers not use this forum to advertise non-T-Nation sites. Granted, your sentiments may be sincere, but there are just too many “trolls” from other companies that spend a good amount of time visiting other websites to plant unpaid-for “advertisements” and to link to their sites. Thanks for understanding!”

LOL, when I followed up with the mod I explained that I wasn’t advertising a non-T-nation site but simply posting a link to an article about “I, Bodybuilder”. I also mentioned that I’ve been a member of t-nation for years, posted in their forums and even subscribed to their newsletter.

But the kicker is that I found out that by “editing” my post they meant they deleted it. That’s a classic t-nation move when you post a comment that casts criticism towards their supplements/programs. In the past I’ve received PMs saying that my comments would not be posted but instead forwarded to customer service. However when I followed up with customer service they wouldn’t reply and the mods wouldn’t respond to the PMs. Gotta love these guys.

I understand your frustration. Case in point: I got ‘silently’ banned from T-mag’s forums (my posts don’t show up, my pm’s don’t make it anywhere) — all for schooling one of their product formulators in a debate in the nutrition/supp forum.

In contrast to the super-tight censorship of T-mag’s forums, Lyle went through a bunch of technical hoops for a few days just to figure out how to get this article unmoderated without lifting the moderation off of all the other articles (which stand to get spammed up otherwise). That’s gangsta.

As I said on JC’s blog, their entire bit screams for a marketing parody:

Nate Green: Nick ended up gaining 20 new leads and increased earnings by 55 percent, and that’s addictive.
Tim Patterson: After experiencing these kinds of results, from week to week, it’s impossible to be satisfied with anything else. These guys are hooked — we’re all totally hooked — and simply refuse to market any other way.
Nate Green: I can’t give you any failures, because there are none at this point.
Tim Patterson: Oh, I’m sure there will be a couple of dozen pus-filled Internet moron-trolls who can’t wait to prove how they ‘got nothing from loaded marketing surges and HTH, and all you really need is ‘honesty, pubmed, and a background in training real athletes.’

Art on
August 20th, 2009 7:22 pm

Wow, Alan, thank you for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to put that up. It’s a total embarrassment that T-Nation would do anything but routinely roll out the red carpet for a man of your caliber and class.

Jack on
August 20th, 2009 7:36 pm

“But I’ll emphasize that everyone differs on this, and for general lifting purposes, amount is vastly more important than type or form. With that said, liquid prot/carb drinks are an easy & sometimes more convenient way to get the job done for pre & postworkout meals.”

Alan,

Would blending up a quality whey protein with a mix of things likes blueberries, raspberries, and some pineapple or mango fit the bill (depending upon amounts) since it can easily be blended up nicely but provides a lot of nutrition to boot?

If I was over at “the nation,” you might have someone telling me that I needed a designer blend of rice oligodextrin and palatinose for a “super-hydrating” effect or that, while my choice might have more nutrients, the fiber wouldn’t be ideal, I’d mostly fill iver glycogen, and blah, blah, blah………………Common sense would seem to tell me that solid training, plus making quality dietary choices from wholesome foods, and adequate nutrient/calorie intake to support growth would always get the job done, but you’re one of the few nutrition folks I’d trust, so if you said there was room for improvement, I’d believe it, whereas to most “gurus,” I’d turn a deaf ear.

For example, I respect Christian Thibaudeau’s advice on training, but when it comes to nutrition, he always makes it sound like optimal progress in size, strength, and leanness is only available if using a specific Biotest cocktail. While I would not want to impugn the man’s integrity, he certainly seems to toe the company line on nutrition advice.

I used to respect T-Nation. They do have good articles there. But I, Bodybuilder was the biggest ad I’ve ever read and that was too much. I still visit T-Nation to read articles from guy like Cressey or Cosgrove but Nate Green and Thibs aren’t the ones I trust..

Indeed, common sense does tell you that solid training, plus making quality dietary choices from wholesome foods, and adequate nutrient/calorie intake to support growth would always get the job done, I think alan would say so too.

I would love to say that such articles should be smacked into the face of all the ‘bros’, but i seriously think it won’t solve much.

My opinion is still that such people tell themselves a story. One that involves orthorexia and the simple superiority complex to justify that they are ‘doing things right’ and ‘working harder than everyone else’. Until that mindset fundamentally changes, people are still gonna buy supplements and the like regardless of their effectiveness just to tell themselves that sort of story.

It’s going to take much more than research to change people’s minds, and I hope that the book project between lyle, alan, martin and borge will attempt to tackle that problem.

Great article as usual. I guess T-nation will never ask you to write an article for them again (though the chocolate milk research review was probably already enough to make them hate you). 🙂

They have some good articles on their site, but the way they pimp their supplements is outrageous. They are flat out lying. I’ve lost respect for some of those guys over there. It’s a shame, because the young impressionable lifters, who don’t know any better, eat this stuff up. What a waste of money.

People just need to keep simple. I have a banana, some nuts, carrots, and half a chicken breast Pre-WO. Protein powder with milk, creatine, and raisins PWO, followed by a full meal.

Travis on
August 20th, 2009 11:32 pm

Perfect. Too bad none of the sheep that visit that site will ever venture to a legitimate site such as Lyle’s. And this is why Biotest exists.

Joshua on
August 21st, 2009 12:36 am

Well its not called Snake Oil (anaconda) for nothing, right?

People are always looking for easy answers though and lack critical reasoning, so scams like this will always exist.

Great article with actual real-life scientific references to back it up!

“Would blending up a quality whey protein with a mix of things likes blueberries, raspberries, and some pineapple or mango fit the bill (depending upon amounts) since it can easily be blended up nicely but provides a lot of nutrition to boot?”

^^^^Yes, it would.

“If I was over at “the nation,” you might have someone telling me that I needed a designer blend of rice oligodextrin and palatinose for a “super-hydrating” effect or that, while my choice might have more nutrients, the fiber wouldn’t be ideal, I’d mostly fill iver glycogen, and blah, blah, blah”

^^^^Which is hilarious considering that a) most fruit is a fairly even split of fructose & glucose, and b) an even split of fructose & glucose – as opposed to a single monosaccharide like pure glucose or pure fructose – has been seen to cause less gastric distress during training & cause a greater oxidation rate of ingested CHO, implying a better ‘sparing’ of glycogen stores during training. As for palatinose (also called isomaltulose), research directly comparing it to sucrose (which is a 50/50 split of glucose & fructose) showed that palatinose was not as readily available for use by working muscles. As a result, significantly more glycogen was used during exercise in the palatinose group than the sucrose group. This isn’t the greatest scenario for training performance dependent upon the sparing of muscle glycogen. The actual benefit over one of those carb types over the other during strength training is probably zip.

PS – I agree that it’s darkly fascinating how the forum membership over at T-mag will never get linked to this article because the censors are on high alert. Thus, the pipe dreams & ignorance will continue to run thick.

Supplements aside, do you think there is any merit to the huge influx of carbohydrate/protein within a small time period surrounding training (just using sucrose/whey)?

Thanks.

Andrew on
August 21st, 2009 9:22 am

Alan-

Supplements aside, do you think there is any merit to the huge influx of carbohydrate/protein within a small time period surrounding training (just using sucrose/whey)?

Thanks.

Q on
August 21st, 2009 11:06 am

Thanks Alan – a great read.

Ironically, a few hours after I read the article, something even more egregious popped up in my e-mail (i.e. spam) from Men’s Health with these gems:

“Add Up To 18 Pounds Of Muscle In Just 2 Weeks”

“In only 2 weeks, David Hudlow built 18-1/2 pounds of muscle and added 1-3/8 inch on each upper arm. And that was just the beginning! Read about David’s amazing transformation starting on Page 190. These amazing results didn’t come from drugs-they came from HIT. Try The New HIT FREE for 21 days!”

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 11:08 am

How many of those discounting the protocol have actually tried it? Answer: None. I agree that the claims are overhyped. I can tell you that I tried their protocol with currently available products to the non-insiders: alpha gpc, spike, surge recovery, surge workout fuel, finibars, and casein hydrosolate.

I think the way it will help newbies put on weight is that it makes you do something most are afraid to do, mass quantaties of carbs and proteins. Assuming your diet remains the same and the only change is using their protocol versus a protein shake and banana pre and post workout, you are going to take in a lot more carbs and protein with their protocol. Your body apparently puts the extra carbs and protein to good use.

I found I was able to add lean mass because I took in more calories and pushed more weight (deadlift went from 315 for one rep to 355 for three reps in two weeks). I would not have dared taken in that many calories before following their protocol for fear of getting fat. This gave me a basis to rationalize taking in the calories.

I am not easily fooled. I have doctorate and more education than most posting on this site or tmuscle.com.

I took it as an interesting experiment. It does not work as claimed, but I have not tried it with their anaconda and new mag10 protein they are releasing. I will try it at least once when it does come out.

An interesting theory they push that I have not seen addressed is slowly raising insulin levels prior to workout and stopping the carbs mid way through workout. Resume normal meal one hour after workout. That sort of flips everything I read upside down. Thoughts on this?

Nice job Alan. There seems to be some sort of backlash against all the BS promoted by most commercial bodybuilding websites/publications/supplement manufacturers swelling up over the past little while. Perhaps they’ve finally pushed too far and lost credibility with many.

As for T-Nation, they have some some good moments (I tend to like Alwyn Cosgrove’s stuff), but the majority of their articles are not worth reading. Much of their training advice is written to sound scientific and garnered from the world’s elite when in actuality it’s just the latest soapbox spoutings of incessant ‘training routine designers’. When I was younger and more gullible I fell for it, but now when I go there I usually close the browser when it becomes apparent after reading a few lines. The fact is they need constant new training articles to draw people to their site and buy Biotest supplements, and many people are naive and/or inexperienced enough to swallow it and think they’re getting cutting edge, useful training information (for free too!).

These latest miraculous gains by Thibaudeau are a little contradictory because, while he’s said repeatedly on their forum that he could get much bigger if he wanted to, he’s also been saying that he doesn’t want to/can’t because of health issues (and I believe he also said that he only took steroids experiementally for a little while when he was a teenager). He clearly must have changed his mind, however, because he’s just claimed to have gained more muscle in 6 weeks than many drug-free bodybuilders of his stature gain in a lifetime of training. He’s doing very well – he’s now carrying over 40 pounds more muscle than the world’s best drug-free bodybuilding champions of his height (which is also well over twice as much muscle as they’ve managed to build).

Jeff on
August 21st, 2009 12:12 pm

So Jaime,

If the protocol is really getting people to just consume more carbs and protein, couldn’t you just have more bananas and chocolate milk to achieve the same result?

Chris B on
August 21st, 2009 12:25 pm

Jaime, you missed the point.

It’s all about marketing with lie which is non-acceptable. Only on the web can a company do this. There’s no way their ads would make it on radio or TV – because you cannot lie to customers.

You said it yourself, their claim are overhyped. ANd still you’re gonna give’em 80 buck ”just to try it”?

You talk about being educated?

And as Jeff said, you could easily have gotten more carbs and prots with real food that is way cheaper.

What’s the need in getting the latest coolest super hot product?

Sorry for the pessimist, but this world is really making me sick. People are being manipulated all the way around, from everywhere, and still don’t open their eyes when someone offers some light.

Are we really the smartest creature living out there? Really makes one wonder…

Jordan on
August 21st, 2009 12:37 pm

c’mon bro…you know chocolate milk is unclean.

unless you’re talking about raw, unpasteurized himalayan llama milk and ground up cacao nibs from the jungles of bolivia…but if that’s the case, why not just buy some anaconda and save yourself the trouble of having to milk the llama yourself?

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 12:47 pm

Its a lot more convenient for me to do a shake or a drink or a bar before working out than that much food.

Second, I, unlike Alan, do not think that HFCS is not bad for you. I do not like HFCS and will not drink it. So compare the cost of an organic chocolate milk without HFCS to surge. Now compare the cost of a good protein with organic bananas to surge and the other supplements. How much of a difference?

If the new GM volt does not get the 200+mpg promised but only 150mpg, you are going to call it a lie and failure, right?

Stop thinking everyone that takes supplements is dumb and goes in without knowing risk and limitations.

At least I can speak from experience, more lean mass and pushing and pulling more weight at the gym. Works for me.

Mark on
August 21st, 2009 1:05 pm

Alan, regardless of how widespread this message becomes, it’s still outstanding information that if 10 people change their minds, it was well worth it.

Okay Jamie, are you saying the gains they are claiming are actually possible? If so, you need to pull your head out of the t-mag clouds and come back down to earth with your doctorate and all. It’s not possible in the time frame they claim and then it’s not likely to EVER happen at said “advanced” training level.

Chris B on
August 21st, 2009 1:29 pm

For the convenience, I agree.

I don’t think that the sugar used in Anonconda must be much helthier than HFCS, tho I don’t know which one they used.

If you have a very healthy diet (grass fed meat with tonz of vegetable) balance with a lot of water, I don’t see any probleme drinking something ”not so healthy” para workout – be it anaconda or chocolate milk.

The point is that if GM tells me that the new volt can and will get the 200mpg, they have to sell me a car that will do it, otherwise I can sue them and i’ll probably win. This example is not really revelant. Because here they are telling you that you are gaining mass in a way that is not possible – even with drugs as studies shows us. They are downright lying to sell.

That’s not morally acceptable.

Maybe it worked for you because your old workout protocol was not optimal and then you get onto something that is? Maybe, as you said, you were lacking calories to have a good recovery and now you have? How can you know if any optimization of your training/diet you would have made would’nt have given the same result, be it their protocol or any other smartly applied? There are no magic protocol out there. Neither is this one. But they are really make it seems like they are gonna revolutionize everything.

It is impossible to really know, so I don’t think your own experience is that much of revelance. It would take randomized controlled studies to really know. And we won’t get that. And there’s always the placebo effect.

Yeah, it worked for you, but probably anything well done would have worked anyway.

John Blackthorne on
August 21st, 2009 1:31 pm

Dear Jamie “Placebo Effect” Lopez,

TC felt the need to write an article to do damage control against the incoming roflcopters before they destroyed the hype. Did you read it? Sounds like you did. Is this the line that hooked you: “Superman supplements are edgier; they might occasionally scare your momma.” Or maybe these lines: “What are you, one of the characters in The Wire who cuts his crack with baby powder? Half the dosage ain’t going to get you there, just as half a dose of penicillin ain’t going to clear up that suspicious rash.”

After his “We’re different than other supp companies, even though we’re the same, but we have integrity” speech, TC says, “Imagine a couple of the biggest bodybuilding/weight lifting fans imaginable who suddenly got the magic keys to a supplement company and were able to make anything they wanted for themselves.” That’s all fine and good when you get the supps for free, but there are kids who’ve been seduced and are spending their lunch money on this overpriced garbage. I’m all for people spending their money on whatever they want to spend it on, but that’s conditioned on an adult having access to accurate information.

T-Knuckle clearly quashes dissent and preys on the skinny kids who want to put on some muscle because they think it will bring them respect, self-confidence, and poon.

Once again, in your case, its your decision. But in your quest for the illusion of optimal, you’ve done been had.

Cheers,

John

gg211 on
August 21st, 2009 1:46 pm

so Jamie, with all your super education and doctorate you couldn’t figure out “eat more calories” on your own?

Jordan on
August 21st, 2009 1:57 pm

They offer PhD programs in Broscience now? wait wait…did you get your doctorate at the same university Waterbury got his degree in neuroscience?

morbo on
August 21st, 2009 3:07 pm

Jamie:

I don’t know about your chocolate milk, but where I live, chocolate milk does not have any HCFS in it.

And whats with the ‘organic’ strawman? Do you really think Surge or Finibars are ‘organic’?

Either way, you don’t like fruit or dairy, fine, make it dextrose+whey isolate from trueprotein.com or another source of your choice. The extensive body of peer reviewed research on the subject suggests that if the protocol is isocaloric, it will amount to the same thing.

Most importantly, and independent of the above points – your reasoning is critically flawed. You admit that your gains came from consuming extra protein+carbs around the workout, rather than any special properties of the calories consumed. You also admit that you were previously ‘afraid’ to take in those extra calories due to (irrational) fear of getting fat.

In other words – the fanciful story TC, CT, and Nate Green wove around the magical gains you should expect (which you yourself admit are not going to happen) gave you ‘permission’ to overcome your *own neuroses* and up your calories around the exercise bout. If the above ‘gurus’ had written an article ‘giving you permission’ to take in an isocaloric amount of sugar+whey, the ‘gains’ would been the same, unless you are counting the weight of your wallet as lean mass.

Ultimately, what you paid a premium for was the article and the feeling it gave you, not the product itself. I would suggest you might be better served spending the extra money on some sort of motivational coach who will ‘give you permission’ to do all the other things your hang-ups might be preventing you from doing.

To sum up – you were sold a false bill of goods (impossible gains) and overcharged for a concoction of simple carbs+protein, but because it worked out as well as a much cheaper and simpler protocol, you are going to defend the same claims that you admit are ridiculous? This leads me to question whether your doctorate required any training in critical thought.

I would just like to point out that, in fact, I like Alan and my post earlier was a joke between us.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

Now for my take on things:

I started reading T-Mag back in ’03. I’ve seen the site change significantly at least five times, if not more. This latest iteration’s purpose, which has been confirmed by others in the industry, is aimed squarely at the teen-to-thirty male demographic who wants to buy supplements.

There was a time when the Biotest guys had maybe six products. They didn’t even sell creatine at one time, nor plain whey. Now, they have a huge product line, and they need to push it. When big boys like BSN make just as outlandish claims, Biotest is forced to as well to compete in the market.

So what’s the problem? Biotest/T-Muscle began as Testosterone Magazine, a print publication that came about as a rejection of the shameless supplement pimping of Muscle Media 2k, after Bill Philips garnered a bunch of success with his Body for Life program and EAS. People remember the old T-Mag. It launched a ton of careers for guys like Waterbury, Berardi, Cressey, and kept prescient bros like Poliquin.

Now, they’re going the same route. I mean straight up, supplements sell. They make money. Print media, and online articles sure aren’t bring in the greenbacks for these guys. In that sense, I can’t blame them. They’re in the unfortunate position of once being relied on as an ‘authority,’ at least on the Internet, for training and nutrition who, now that the pond has grown, need to rely on a different income stream. And people will call them out on everything, as they should.

In the early 2000s, no one blogged. No one had Twitter. There was no Facebook, no MySpace. Developing a quality website was out of reach for most non-coding individuals. Internet communities were isolated from one another, so it was easy to keep that tribe (Seth Godin’s usage) coming back. But now, with Web 2.0 and the overlapping streams of communication available through technology, T-Mag has to adapt to a marketplace where a guy like Alan can have as much influence in the community as any of their contributors.

If anything, the lack of response on this site shows that people either accept the implicit hyperbole and don’t really care, or, that the readership who once only exposed themselves only to T-Mag now acquire information from a variety of sources and are more keen to the realities of bodybuilding. Lyle had a big impact on the reactionary, evidence-based community when he finally got this site together and started blogging on a regular basis.

Kudos for posting this article.

Johny23 on
August 21st, 2009 3:35 pm

I agree, these claims indeed seem outrageous, but I will try their product to see if it makes any difference (even a fraction of the effect they advertise would be enough for me as I’m stalled out at 210lbs for years). And I’ve tried Surge and it rocks (great taste and quality ingredients). I don’t care if I have to pay few bucks more compared to drinking Choclate milk pwo. It’s not like I’m gonna go broke because of that 😀

And one more thing before I’m being accused of being T-Nations “sheep”. I like to hear “both sides” and that’s THE reason why I come to this site from time to time. But you always attacking T-Nation, when there are much worse supplement companies (heard of MuscleTech anyone?) and thinking you are infallible and some kind of fighters for truth is just hilarious. Get down to earth or better yet even this up by “investigating” other shady supplement manufacturers. I’m sure this would give you lots of material to work with if you weren’t aiming exceptionally at T-Nation.

tiraisu on
August 21st, 2009 3:49 pm

While I think the supplement companies claims are generally lies I believe this article significantly understates the potential for young untrained men to put on muscle.

Combining a solid linear strength program with food and a gallon of milk a day college football aged boys have been putting on far closer to 1-1.5 pounds of mucsle a week for short periods in off season strength training without the aid of drugs. Obviously this requires an athletic, young, underweight man with normal to good genetics but this is not terribly uncommon in college level athletic programs.

I am also clear that similar results can be had in the short term with the use exogenous testosterone, exercise, and excess calories by older males as I have significantly outperformed your stated numbers in the first year of training with an average closer to 2.5 pounds a month with the use of significant aas and consistent excess calories. I have good genetics and started from an untrained state. (3 year layoff)

The studies available to us are generally not well suited to ahtletic training and are often more interested in geriatrics and aids patients.

… All that said the supplement industry is the wild west and PubMed is our friend.

Jordan on
August 21st, 2009 4:04 pm

Thanks for clearing that up, Ryan. I guess you must’ve seen my post on the “other” forum. As for the “old” T-Nation, you’re right, they have certainly jumped the shark over the last 5 years or so.

It seemed like the “pre V-diet” era T-mag had much more credibility than it’s current iteration, which seems to be a caricature of itself (if that make sense)

I though that maybe it’s always been the way it is now, and that I’m the one that matured and saw through the bullshit. But I think you’re right, any shred of integrity they *might* have had is surely long gone by now.

Mark on
August 21st, 2009 4:25 pm

Ryan, I agree with your last paragraph. Judging from the T-Rag posters almost wetting their pants waiting for the release of this product, I don’t think that Biotest will have any problem selling this stuff. It’s a shame. I use to buy the fish oil and protein power and bars from Biotest, but I now I can’t even bring myself to do that. I’m sure they’re quite OK with that because I’m sure their margins on the products that I buy are minimal. It’s the $80 sugar in a fancy package that will make them a ton of money. In addition, they’re touting that you still need Surge for recovery purposes.

“Supplements aside, do you think there is any merit to the huge influx of carbohydrate/protein within a small time period surrounding training (just using sucrose/whey)?”

^^^^Beyond a certain point, no. There’s only so much substrate that can be absorbed through the gut per unit of time. So, intestinal absorption appears to be the rate-limiting process here. Unless you’re willing to try to bypass that & just load the syringe (TM).

With protein, the limited acute data available (which happened to use maximal rate of urea synthesis as a metric) suggests 8-15g/hr as the maximal rate. But this was seen under resting conditions, dosing was infused rather than oral, and this wasn’t long-term research. For carbs, one of the highest oxidation (utilization) rates seen was a 1:1 glucose:fructose solution. As for maximal rates of carbohydrate oxidation during training, earlier research indicated roughly 1-1.8g/min (60-108g ingested per hour) maxes it out, although some recent work showed a 1:1 glucose:fructose solution maxed out oxidation rates when 2.4g/min was consumed (144g/hr). Keep in mind that the latter work was done using carb-only solutions, so there’s limitations there.

Now the issue as I see it is this — you’re probably not inquiring about endurance performance applications, where these large doses would potentially benefit. If it’s a matter of jacking up insulin & flooding the system with aminos & CHO for the purposes of muscle protein synthesis, then that objective has strict limits beyond which the “more is better” idea gets shot down. Under hyperaminoacidemic conditions, insulin elevations at slightly above resting levels (& easily met by typical post-prandial levels) are all that’s needed to max out net muscle protein gains. Supraphysiological doses of insulin (ie, ~1000x basal levels) achievable via needle poke are a different story.

So, it all goes back to what I said earlier — concentrating a certain amount prot & carb around the training bout is helpful to a point, but distantly secondary in importance compared to your end-of-day totals.

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 4:34 pm

Bottom line: I am not criticizing a program I have not fully read. It is supposed to be a nutrition and workout program. You are stabbing at things you have not seen. The only reason you criticize is because you do not like the marketing. Because you, the smart ones, are trying to protect us, the dumb ones.

There is no organic strawman. Organic is the I usually eat. So if I have a banana with a protein shake, it is going to be organic. Everything I eat, if possible is organic. I go to the farm to look at the produce before I buy it. How many of you do that? I researched my beef until I found someone that could get me grass fed, free range, longhorn beef. My eggs are from free range chickens. I see the chickens that produce my eggs.

The initial point of the article is “damn there is a lot of hype going on over at tmuscle.” My point is, “I tried some of what they are selling and had pretty good results.”

I am not able to workout for six weeks. However, when I start up again, I am going to try chocolate milk (organic non HFCS) for four weeks as my supplement protocol. The difference between myself and some of you reading this is that I will not live behind a study or other paper to tell me what works for me. I will try my available options, log my results, compare, and decide. That is open minded. Try it someday.

John Blackthorn on
August 21st, 2009 4:37 pm

Johny23,

You are a “sheep” just like all of the others. Second, don’t try to distract or deflect the negative attention away from T-Knuckle with the “but Moooooom, he’s doing it tooooooo” strategy. T-Knuckle has created something far more subversive and insidious than MuscleTech or the others.

They put out decent articles on training written by some well-respected coaches, build the confidence and trust of the readers, and then gently slide little lies and seeds of doubt into the minds of the reader. On top of that well-orchestrated circle-jerk of smoke and mirrors, they censor all of the comments on T-Knuckle forums that they don’t want–they refuse to let the “other side” have a say. (I’m glad you found this site on your own, and I encourage you to stick around and read.)

T-Knuckle has constructed this formidable edifice out of the sum of thousands of half-truths and fears, and they know it would imploide if outsiders could educate their little baah-baahs. So, not only are they ripping people off who buy their overpriced supplements, they’re also effectively programming legions of broscientists.

When these broscientists walk around talking about insulin spikes and needing to eat every 2-3 hours, people will listen to them because the T-Knuckleheads are built and they’ll think its because of the T-Knuckleheads nutritional knowledge and the supplements, not because of consistent effort over time.

The disinformation spreads. It takes a long time to undo all of that garbage programming.

Hope you’re having fun over on that “side.” Best of luck with pushing past 210. But I doubt that your muscles will hypertrophy as much as CT’s wallet.

“While I think the supplement companies claims are generally lies I believe this article significantly understates the potential for young untrained men to put on muscle. […] Combining a solid linear strength program with food and a gallon of milk a day college football aged boys have been putting on far closer to 1-1.5 pounds of mucsle a week for short periods in off season strength training without the aid of drugs. Obviously this requires an athletic, young, underweight man with normal to good genetics but this is not terribly uncommon in college level athletic programs.”

^^^^This is where it comes in handy to actually read what I wrote. I’ll quote what you missed in the article, keywords in caps:

“Let’s step back for a second and look at the big picture. It’s RARE for a fully-grown, skeletally mature adult in his EARLY TWENTIES OR OLDER to put on more than 50 lbs of muscle during an entire training career. Just imagine a COLLEGE GRADUATE weighing a relatively lean 185 transforming into a muscular 235-pounder by the time he’s in his mid to late 20’s. This is a very formidable feat.”

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 4:48 pm

Ryan:

Bit confused. Didn’t you just post a major article on tmuscle this week? Why lend your name and talent to a bunch of hyperbolic, shameless, self promoters who steal money from fools who know no better?

I kid. Congratulations on your article. Somehow, you managed to get an article in there without tying it into one of their products. That is the first time I have seen that in the year or so time that I have read their stuff.

I was gonna address your comment, but a) you might just be trollin’, and b) several people took the words right out of my mouth. Refer to this discussion to learn more about your interesting phobia of HFCS:

You’re an idiot:
“Bottom line: I am not criticizing a program I have not fully read. It is supposed to be a nutrition and workout program. You are stabbing at things you have not seen. The only reason you criticize is because you do not like the marketing. Because you, the smart ones, are trying to protect us, the dumb ones.”

We criticize not because we don’t like the marketing per se, but because the program is the marketing and the marketing is the program and their claims are patently false. After reading that fake “article” you cannot think about Anaconda or their Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious training program without having those marketing lies in the front or back of your mind. Don’t you get it?

Apparently you don’t:

“The initial point of the article is “damn there is a lot of hype going on over at tmuscle.” My point is, “I tried some of what they are selling and had pretty good results.”

“The difference between myself and some of you reading this is that I will not live behind a study or other paper to tell me what works for me. I will try my available options, log my results, compare, and decide. **That is open minded**. Try it someday.”

Hook, line, and sinker.

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 5:06 pm

Alan:
Read the article linked hence my knowledge of your stance on HFCS. Still do not like it for myself or for my kids.

It is interesting that people are so emotionally invested in their positions. I would have thought folks reading through this blog would be a bit more tolerant and rational in their discussions. Guess I forgot this is still the internet and people will hide behind their computer screen to call names and shout.

Some on this site, and many other sites, are just as irrationally anti tmuscle as some on tmuscle are irrationally pro tmuscle. It is not like they are promising a cure for cancer or AIDS. It’s freakin’ workout supplements. Get back to me when what they are selling is dangerous and not just maybe overhyped.

I will treat you like I am having a civil conversation in person and face to face. Try reciprocating.

If you were in front of me having this conversation, John, you wouldn’t use the word “idiot.” John, tell us your results on your major lifts without tmuscle products and with tmuscle products.

Still cannot figure out what your problem is, John, with people trying stuff out and deciding for themselves if something works for them. They aren’t stealing from your revenue stream (unless you sell supplements for a tmuscle competitor)

morbo on
August 21st, 2009 5:07 pm

Jaime – way to selectively respond to my post. Way to ignore the most important point – that what you really paid for was a macho ‘hardcore’ fairytale that got you over your OWN neurosis about eating more. I was not joking about the coaching thing either – a reasonable, thoughtful person in your situation would analyze their behaviour/thought process and realize that all that was REALLY needed was an ‘authority’ to convince themselves it’s ok to up the calories, and pay such an ‘authority’ for occasional coaching sessions (whether training or nutrition related).

“There is no organic strawman.”… ‘I buy everything organic’ (the gist of the paragraph of self-congratulatory non-sequiters you posted)

There is an organic strawman in your argument, and you deployed it for no reason, out of the blue. You are taking the biotest protocol, which is decidedly NON-ORGANIC, and insisting that the only suitable replacement would be ORGANIC. In fact, the biotest protocol is far less ‘natural’, far more ‘processed’, or whatever buzzword floats your boat, than normal chocolate milk + bananas. You are holding the alternative to a higher standard than the biotest protocol, just so the premium you paid doesn’t seem so outrageous. Either that, or what you’re saying is in effect “I insist on organic, and I’m damn self-righteous about it! But I can always make an exception for my bros at Biotest. BUT ONLY THEM.” I’d like to assume you’re smart enough not to be so blatantly self-contradictory.

Good luck with the chocolate milk protocol. Make sure you are going isocaloric to the biotest protocol if you want it to be a fair comparison. Personally, I find chocolate milk too sweet and too thick to drink +pre-workout, so I tend to go with WPI+dextrose+creatine pre, and a giant MPI+milk+fruit+cereal mix post. Different strokes and all that.

Turns out if you know their marketing claims are bullshit, you don’t have to try the program to know it’s shit?

This is just like all the other T-Apologists that really think Alwyn, Waterbury, and any of the rest actually have a different kind of programming. It’s all the same shit with a different label, and tards eat it up.

I have looked into the supps that you mentioned in your original post. They range from “weakly supported” to “not effective beyond less expensive alternatives.” If you want to dispute that contention using research, you can be my guest. We can do the same with HFCS if, but it was beaten to death in the article I linked.

I’ll never know what your affiliation or investment in Biotest is (emotional, financial, or other), but I’m gonna be honest and say that you seem kinda fishy.

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 5:19 pm

Morbo:

Agree with your first paragraph. Disagree with the next two paragraphs.

As far as chocolate milk supplement protocol, I was using 1 scoop sure recovery and 1 scoop workout fuel. So, I think I will have to add a large banana to the chocolate milk to match the carbs. A bunch of ice thrown in and some yogurt and I am good to go. Can’t wait to try it out.

Chris B on
August 21st, 2009 5:25 pm

Jaime

You keep talking about trying stuff out and seeing if it works. The problem, as I said, is that is it impossible to know if it is really the program that works or simply the changes.

And, even if T-nation wanna make it looks like it’s new, using pre neural activation technique to optimize a training session is far from being new. Very far from it. It only takes a guy lik Chris Sugart to write : ”we’re just beggining to understand the role of the nervous system to build muscle” or something like that. LOL.

Like newbies stopping the 3×12 reps to go on HITT will experience massive result. Is it the HITT or the change? Simply the change.

Stop using your experience and say that it worked for you and that we should be open mind and defend them because it did work for you. Any program well done, with intensity, frequence, and a rotation of the exercice will make you break a plateau. I’ll repeat myself once more : it’s not the program per se that works, but the changing of program.

You don’t even know why it really work. Really, you don’t. Unless you keep a very precise training and diet log for a while controlling every factors, and then comparing, you just can’t say.

There’s no magic program. Only a clever way of using the program.

John Blackthorn on
August 21st, 2009 5:33 pm

Dear Jamie “Placebo Effect” Lopez,

I would surely call you an idiot to your face if you said what you said in your last few posts.

“It is interesting that people are so emotionally invested in their positions. I would have thought folks reading through this blog would be a bit more tolerant and rational in their discussions. Guess I forgot this is still the internet and people will hide behind their computer screen to call names and shout.”

I am being completely rational, and I never raised my voice. Alan’s article was about the scientific evidence overwhelmingly against their claims, and I decided to add what I thought was the other part of the argument against T-Knuckle. I am emotionally invested in my “position” because I care deeply about educating people with the truth and using the scientific evidence as a guide. And, btw, this isn’t a blog.

“Some on this site, and many other sites, are just as irrationally anti tmuscle as some on tmuscle are irrationally pro tmuscle. It is not like they are promising a cure for cancer or AIDS. It’s freakin’ workout supplements. Get back to me when what they are selling is dangerous and not just maybe overhyped.”

My position is perfectly rational given what I said about my passion for the truth and evidence-based education. Though what they are selling is not acutely dangerous in the sense of making claims about curing cancer or aids, its a difference of degree rather than kind. False claims motivated by greed and self-interest are still false claims motivated by greed and self-interest.

“John, tell us your results on your major lifts without tmuscle products and with tmuscle products.”

LOL. Same bullshit, different day. My lifts are not relevant to the subject at hand. Are you going to ask me for a pic next??

Furthermore, I don’t buy Lie-o-test products, but I don’t have to because I trust the evidence and those who understand the evidence and have years of experience in the field training real regular people and pro athletes.

“Still cannot figure out what your problem is, John, with people trying stuff out and deciding for themselves if something works for them. They aren’t stealing from your revenue stream (unless you sell supplements for a tmuscle competitor)”

I have no problem with people trying stuff out and seeing if it works on them. My problem is with T-Knuckle and the false claims that they are making about the supplements. If they actually told the truth about their supps and allowed people to have full information before making a purchase, then we wouldn’t be having this civil discussion. What do you think would happen to their sales if they admitted to people that their designer “Superman” supps work no better than hitting your daily nutrient needs and following an intelligent training program?

The funny thing is that they’ll probably increase my revenue stream over the long run when people come to me and I gits paid to re-educate them about nutrition.

Cheers,

John

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 5:42 pm

Alan:

You are too smart to be paranoid. I am what I say I am: a guy who likes to workout., reads a whole bunch of different sources, and will try different protocols (both on the nutrition and workout side).

Within the last two years, I have tried a lot of different nutrition protocols. Some I tried based on information from this site. If someone posted on here that IF will kill any gains and slow your metabolism, I would defend with my experience. I am not doing anything different here by stating what I have stated about tmuscle.

Still do not see the problem with saying that I tried some of their stuff and liked results. I know some of the people reading this have a tmuscle account (Ryan just logged on today). Feel free to look up my profile (usename jolopez). You will see that I am not a major poster on that site. Do not have one post and just one PM. Can also see that my level ( I think determined by how much you spend) is level 1 which means I have spent about $200 in the last 18 months.

I would think you would prefer that people who have tried some of their supplements post their experience rather than people blindly stating that it is all a lie that steals your money. Tmuscles biggest mistake is overhyping. That is where legitimate claims will be leveled against them and diminish the actual positive returns one can achieve with their products.

Drs. office called and said the minimum amount of walking I am doing post op is too much. At least I found something to do to pass the time. Dying to get back to work. Can’t wait to get back to working out.

I have no agenda against T-Nation. I understand they have to play to two entirely different subsets of the training population – the first, who believe that no matter how much convincing you do of them, they’ll never have optimal gains UNLESS they’re taking supplements, the second, bros found on websites like this who realize supplements play a distant, distant, distant role to proper training and nutrition. The problem is the number of the former far, far, far outweigh the latter.

Biotest isn’t stupid. Look at BB.com. 99%+ of the posts are from 16-year-old kids blowing their parents money on supplements. They want to make money, plain and simple.

Like I mentioned in my first post, a lot of the controversy stews from T-Nation’s image of four to five years ago, which more closely resembled an online magazine than a vehicle for Biotest supplements.

Can you blame me for being skeptical? I’ll trust you. For now… [insert disappearing ninja icon].

But let’s get to the nitty-gritty here. You yourself said that the prime factor in your success on the t-muscle protocol was a net increase in protein & carbs. I and several others in here have pointed out that you’ve been overpaying for the purportedly ‘special’ protein & carbs after buying into the unsubstantiated marketing hype. I don’t see what more there is to the discussion than that.

Simon on
August 21st, 2009 6:24 pm

Being English I’m always a bit cynical to advertising, but did i interpertrate that right? you have different levels of achievement due to how much you spend? it should be called HIT = Hubbard Inspired Taxing!

I actually have read the whole arguement, I think this Jamie is a decent guy, but you are arguing different point. Jamie i think you are correct, if you follow the plans 100% you will get good results, that is a no brainer, but good training, excellent diet and enough calories always will.

The logic being argued is that the claims are misleading and sole purpose is to unfairly sell their product on these claims. which is illegal and immoral. you say that it’s ok if gets people on the right track, but it only gets them on the right track until the next revolution comes. And for each person that it gets buff or ripped there are many more still weak and poor.

John Blackthorn on
August 21st, 2009 6:41 pm

Dear Jamie “Placebo Effect” Lopez,

You dismiss everything I’ve said because of my decision to employ urban lingo in the last sentence of my last post?

You say that you “wasted your time” like you had something better to do with it. GTFO.

Cheers,

John

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 6:56 pm

Simon:

When I figured out that level was determined by how much you spend, the grains taken with advice given rose quickly.

Alan:

Overpaying is a matter of perspective.

I will agree I was overpaying when I see same results with chocolate milk and banana. Have not tried it so will not knock it. Feel free to give me the protocol you think I need to consume to match what I previously stated (1 scoop recovery and 1 scoop fuel) and I will report back. Otherwise, will follow what was laid out in your surge v. CM article. Right now I am thinking organic 2% chocolate milk and about 100gms banana. Feel free to offer alternatives. For example, I have read good things about ice cream post workout. Would not mind doing that. I will state my gound rules for the rest of my meals are lean proteins and veggies and some legumes or whole grains with lean protein and veggies for a post workout meal.

I will state upfront that I think chocolate milk will have the upper hand on gains because I will come off a long rest but that can be factored into determining results. Will also state that I will probably follow a Waterbury program. Have not decided which one just yet.

I would be more than honored to say that I am following a workout protocol personally designed by Alan Aragon. So, hopefully the ninja will reappear

Glad the conversation turned productive. Thanks for a good afternoon of discussion. Would be extra productive if the ninja gives me the formula requested..

Frank on
August 21st, 2009 7:08 pm

Brotologist Lopez, for somebody with a supposed doctorate, you seem to lack basic grammatical skills. Did your doctorate come from the same place as tmuscles ethics?

You are hanging amongst the worst of the worst, faking qualifications in an attempt to make yourself feel good about wasting money on retards and scammers at tmag. Good stuff.

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 7:33 pm

Frank:

Feel free to point out grammatical mistakes. Also please post corrections. I can spot at least two in your last post. Otherwise, as a wise man once said, “GTFO”

Frank on
August 21st, 2009 7:53 pm

Nice avoidance. Being TC’s bitch has taught you well.

Nigel Walker on
August 21st, 2009 7:55 pm

Lopez, where did you get your doctorate?

Jaime Lopez on
August 21st, 2009 8:09 pm

Damn, I need to stop checking in on this site.

Frank:
avoiding what? you didn’t state anything in your post other than grammatical mistakes.

Nigel:
Same place you got yours. Oh, sorry, you don’t have one. Seriously, have given too much information in this line of discussion. If you want, I can provide proof to someone on this site, like Alan or Ryan, if they agree not to reveal private info but only provide verification was provided.

Guys, you all have lost focus of the discussion. See the discussion I had with Alan for an example of proper give and take discussion. Neither of you have added to the conversation.

It is interesting that there are only two people that have posted that they have tried the biotest products. Maybe the people who fear the damage tmuscle might cause overestimate the reach that tmuscle has into masses. They have hyped their company and product to the point that even you non-believers feel it necessary to deal with.

I would say their reach is a lot less than the print magazines that are owned by the supp companies. It is also more obvious that it is an advertising site pushing product.

Hopefully, this is the last time I have to type that an orange is the color of an orange.

Jordan on
August 21st, 2009 8:19 pm

There sure are a lot of highly educated people that seem to exist only on the internet.

Ryan on
August 21st, 2009 8:50 pm

Jaime,

I’m not saying this to insult your lifts, or to imply that my judgment is better than yours because I’m stronger than you are. That’s super bro behavior. BUT….

You said that your deadlift was 315 at the time you started the “protocol.” Again, no offense intended, but with a 1RM deadlift of only 315 lbs, almost anything will increase it; high reps, low reps, high protein, high carb, high fat, whatever. 315 was my max deadlift the very first time I tested it, and I went from 315 to 405 in 6 months just from eating a lot of food. The fact is this: you were very very weak and CT’s protocol worked for you because ANY protocol would have worked for you.

I’m gonna step in and say that I think some of the posters here are looking for a fight. It’s been quiet on the T-Nation side, so the backlash to some of the things Jaime has posted isn’t surprising. Jaime’s a good guy, at least based on the handful of interactions I’ve had with him, and seems as stand-up as any forum member I’ve ever come across.

P.P.S. Alan, was your surprisingly complementary, mirrored-relative-to-my-avatar a bro-challenge? I see your challenge and raise you an addition 3% neck fat loss by next week.

Kyle McDougal on
August 22nd, 2009 6:26 am

So in order to have an opinion about biotest products, we must have used them? are you kidding or just disabled?

Myles Buckley on
August 22nd, 2009 10:31 am

For Ryan Zielonka:

The reason it has been so quiet on the T-Nation site is really very simple, T-Nation is so heavily moderated that no dissenting posts, questions, or rebuttal can make it to the forums.

P.S. your Starbucks PWO idea looks awfully tempting.

Mike on
August 22nd, 2009 11:05 am

Alan,

I haven’t tried any Biotest products in the past, but I do use a whey product from a company called Designs for Health. I was wondering if you could take a quick look at the product description (link below- not the company’s website but simply one online retailer selling it). A local doctor I know and train with gave me a container to try out and since then I’ve been using it. The price likely would make many call BS, but the price per serving struck me as reasonable for my budget (and I get a “discounted” price from what was listed on that website link), plus the quality appears high, so I stuck with it. Essentially I am wondering (more and more as I encounter your practical approach to things) if I am being hosed?

Specific to the question above is the line about the product “The milk harvested for this product comes from cows that graze on pesticide and chemical-free natural grass pastures. Milk from grass-fed cows has many times higher levels of CLA and contains a proper balance of essential fatty acids. The milking cows are never fed grain or subjected to any growth hormone treatment, chemicals, antibiotics, genetically modified organisms, hyperimmunization or injected pathogens.” This company is not known for trying to market to naive young bodybuilding wannabes, but I’ve also gotten the sense that the milk source issue gets clouded by many. When within my budget, I always want to make a choice that is optimal for health, but by the same token I don’t want to question if what I am currently doing is evidence-based or just me being a gullible guy who doesn’t have much experience with research studies.

On a related note, I noticed your comments above about most fruit containing a fairly even split of glucose and fructose. Now many say to consume fruit but just be careful not to go too far overboard to avoid the fructose amounts from eventually adding up. Given that I limit grains and legumes to very moderate amounts and mostly consume vegetables and fruit in terms of carb intake, is there any reason why adding in extra fruit pre/post training to support my training and recovery would be a problem? When not training I usually consume 2-3 pieces a day, so if training, I’d likely add on to that number.

I came across the following comment on the Poliquin Performance Center Chicago Website:

“Limit fructose intake. Even though fruits are great foods loaded with nutrients, they also contain fructose. Fructose in too high quantities can slow down thyroid function and increase glycation. Glycation in laymen’s term is browning, like the browning that makes crust in bread. Glycation is the cross linking of proteins (and DNA molecules) caused by sugar aldehydes reacting with the amino acids on the protein molecule and creating Advance Glycosylation End-products (AGE’s). If you want to see protein cross linking in action, cut an apple in half and watch it turn yellow! Very few people realize that glucose can go through oxidation. Why is the worst glycation agent fructose? Because it does not raise insulin. In other words, the insulin is not getting it into muscle cells. Therefore, it lingers around and wrecks metabolic havoc. As nutrition expert Robert Crayhon would say: “fructose is like the guest that won’t go home once the party is over”. Crayhon recommends that the average American should eat no more than 5-10 grams of fructose a day! For very active individuals, 20 grams of fructose should be the maximum intake.”

Since there weren’t any references, I didn’t want to just blindly accept this, but since I have no science background, I did not ignore it, either.

Would mixing something like the whey I mentioned at the top and say coconut water and a banana (or pineapple, grapes, etc.) be more than reasonable to add on top of my non-training day intake of protein, fat, and 2 pieces of fruit (example- a large apple and 2 medium-sized kiwis)? I have a good handle on what type of intake maintains my current weight and body comp, so basically it is more a question of if additional fruit for fuel/recovery is an issue, since more fruit will equal more fructose (even when only about half of the sugar in many types of fruit) or if consumption of fruit would have to be at largely unrealistic/astronomical levels for fructose amounts to even remotely become an issue.

I apologize for this being a bit of a mini tome, but any feedback would be appreciated.

Specific to the question above is the line about the product “The milk harvested for this product comes from cows that graze on pesticide and chemical-free natural grass pastures. Milk from grass-fed cows has many times higher levels of CLA and contains a proper balance of essential fatty acids. The milking cows are never fed grain or subjected to any growth hormone treatment, chemicals, antibiotics, genetically modified organisms, hyperimmunization or injected pathogens.” This company is not known for trying to market to naive young bodybuilding wannabes, but I’ve also gotten the sense that the milk source issue gets clouded by many. When within my budget, I always want to make a choice that is optimal for health, but by the same token I don’t want to question if what I am currently doing is evidence-based or just me being a gullible guy who doesn’t have much experience with research studies.”
——————————————————————————–

So we’re talking a retail price of $69 bucks for 2 lbs of product, when the competing whey powders cost about $20 bucks for a 2 lb tub. That’s your 1st clue that you’re a little too generous with helping a company sustain their bling. Is the product really 3x better? 3x safer? 3x more nutritious? 3x more effective? I don’t think that this is scientifically supportable. What you can do is have a company like Bioplex, Optimum, Dymatize, or True Protein send you the lab analysis of their whey, do the same with DFH, and see for yourself. I personally wouldn’t spend more than $10 bucks a pound for something as basic as whey powder. It would be like spending 15 bucks a gallon for milk. As for touting the higher CLA, that’s sort of a hoot since CLA supplementation is useless, and even has adverse health potential. As for touting higher EFA, I’d hope you’re not relying on a protein powder to get your EFA.
———————————————————————————

“On a related note, I noticed your comments above about most fruit containing a fairly even split of glucose and fructose. Now many say to consume fruit but just be careful not to go too far overboard to avoid the fructose amounts from eventually adding up. Given that I limit grains and legumes to very moderate amounts and mostly consume vegetables and fruit in terms of carb intake, is there any reason why adding in extra fruit pre/post training to support my training and recovery would be a problem? When not training I usually consume 2-3 pieces a day, so if training, I’d likely add on to that number.”
—————————————————————————–
There’s no research data in existence indicating that a higher intake of whole fruit is detrimental to health. In fact, the research (everything from epidemiological to experimental) shows quite the opposite; higher fruit intakes improve a range of health indexes compared to lower fruit intakes. The only time eating fruit would be adverse is if the fruit you eat contributes to a calorie surplus that goes unused. But even in the latter case, you might be better off cutting back on other food sources rather than fruit, which is nutrient-dense/calorie-sparse and disease-preventive. So yeah, eat as much fruit as you want, as long as it fits into your total carbohydrate allotment for the day.

““Limit fructose intake. Even though fruits are great foods loaded with nutrients, they also contain fructose. Fructose in too high quantities can slow down thyroid function and increase glycation. Glycation in laymen’s term is browning, like the browning that makes crust in bread. Glycation is the cross linking of proteins (and DNA molecules) caused by sugar aldehydes reacting with the amino acids on the protein molecule and creating Advance Glycosylation End-products (AGE’s). If you want to see protein cross linking in action, cut an apple in half and watch it turn yellow! Very few people realize that glucose can go through oxidation. Why is the worst glycation agent fructose? Because it does not raise insulin. In other words, the insulin is not getting it into muscle cells. Therefore, it lingers around and wrecks metabolic havoc. As nutrition expert Robert Crayhon would say: “fructose is like the guest that won’t go home once the party is over”. Crayhon recommends that the average American should eat no more than 5-10 grams of fructose a day! For very active individuals, 20 grams of fructose should be the maximum intake.”
_____________________________________________________________________
What you quoted is a perfect example of food neurosis. Imagine that, singling out fructose as the root of all evil. That’s pretty funny. Sure, you can force adverse metabolic effects if you do like the rodent research where you maintain a calorie surplus with 50% of your total calories from isolated fructose. But in the real world, that’s even tough to do if you’re a dedicated soft drink chugger – in which case, you have bigger problems than just your fructose intake. All this fear of fructose is based on studies involving unrealistic doses & contexts. What happens invariably is that the lay public gets misled into thinking fructose is bad, thus fruits are bad because they contain fructose. I also have to say that what you quoted is incorrect on every level, including the insulin silliness. These guys are either taking out-of-context shots at fructose for NOT raising insulin, or they’re saying the same irrational thing about foods that DO raise insulin. This is all a part of being ignorant of the research, and having alarmist/sensationalist tendencies – which describes most of the industry. Regarding glycation, the claims in what you quoted are bogus as well. I’ll quote a research:

Keep in mind that the above meta-analysis was limited to mostly sedentary, deconditioned/unathletic study samples. You can safely bet that those limits would be significantly higher in the trained or active population. Bottom line: that information you quoted was trash.

——————————————————————–
“Would mixing something like the whey I mentioned at the top and say coconut water and a banana (or pineapple, grapes, etc.) be more than reasonable to add on top of my non-training day intake of protein, fat, and 2 pieces of fruit (example- a large apple and 2 medium-sized kiwis)? I have a good handle on what type of intake maintains my current weight and body comp, so basically it is more a question of if additional fruit for fuel/recovery is an issue, since more fruit will equal more fructose (even when only about half of the sugar in many types of fruit) or if consumption of fruit would have to be at largely unrealistic/astronomical levels for fructose amounts to even remotely become an issue.”
—————————————————————-
I think that my previous presponses answer this question, let me know if they didn’t. Basically, perish the misinformation & drop your apprehension toward fruit. The healthiest populations on the planet eat an abundance of it.

Jim on
August 22nd, 2009 2:33 pm

Alan,

I have read a lot of your material and I think that you (and Lyle) are clearly serious individuals who have a substantial interest in good science. Thus I am surprised that you have concluded that HFCS is largely benign as I think there is ample evidence to demonstrate otherwise. I fully agree with your view that the longitudinal and ecologic studies implicating HFCS as the “cause” of obesity are entirely unconvincing because those papers base their conclusions on observed correlations for which there are equally plausible explanations.

The same is not true for the effect of fructose on lipid metabolism as it has been clearly demonstrated that ingestion of beverages containing HFCS with a meal have distinct effect on postpradial lipid metabolism and lipogenesis. Try a search from Reference Manager via PubMed on the terms “Lipemia” and “Fructose” and you will get over 200 artciles, most of them on point.

Like all things in nutrtion, the world will not come to a sudden end just because you get some HFCS in your diet, but limiting dietary intake of HFCS (and sucrose) is probably a sensible strategy although extreme paranoia by otherwise healthy inviduals is not warranted. Those with eleveated lipids, especially LDL, may want to be a bit more cautious.

As for your take on over-hyped supplement marketing there is not much I can add to your well written article. Testimonials and “magic formulas” have no place in science.

Johny23 on
August 22nd, 2009 2:46 pm

Throughout all the discussion I’ve seen 3 (maybe 4) people who were discussing instead of ‘cussing.

Some people try Biotest products, like and use them. Others (probably without even trying) dislikes them and their products. But this is what I can’t really get – why the second group feeling so self-righteously thinks they have the right to tell what the first group has to do (I’m referring to some hot pants here)? This kind of behavior won’t make me change my mind a bit.

John Calla on
August 22nd, 2009 4:47 pm

John Berardi was asked to give his opinion on this new program and he basically expressed a “wait and see” view of it. His take was that it’s hard to make any judgments without knowing anything about it.

And yeah, that’s true. We really can’t say the training program is good or bad without knowing the specifics. And we can’t say the supplement is good or bad without knowing what it is.

But unless I misread it, I believe the purpose of this article (and others I’ve seen like it), was to point out that the company is clearly engaging in extreme deception (if not outright lying) to sell its products. I think that’s an issue worth discussing. Any man with a shred of integrity needs to come out and denounce this crap, no matter the costs.

Even if the training program is the best that’s ever been conceived, we know that it’s only going to be a marginal improvement over what we already have available. And even if the supplement is the best ever made, we know that it could only provide maybe 1% difference over what we already have through regular foods.

The claims are absolute crap. I can’t believe anyone would stand here and say, “I don’t mind being lied to… I’ll give it a try anyway” or “Yeah, they’re dropping a big turd on our foreheads but we like them anyway.” Even if we know the marketing is absolute crap, the fact is there are many people (particularly beginners and perhaps those who aren’t very familiar with the fitness industry because it’s just not their “thing”) who just don’t know any better and therefore can be easily deceived.

Thibs and Nate Green lose all credibility by associating themselves with this style of marketing. We all have choices to make; they’ve made theirs and they should be judged by those choices. In my view, there is nothing more important than one’s own personal integrity… not money, not exposure, not anything.

JMO of course,
John

Jordan on
August 22nd, 2009 5:23 pm

Hold on a sec….Nate Green had credibility?

Seriously though, I agree with John entirely. How can people, who KNOW they’re being fed a load of garbage, continue to rationalize spending $80 a bottle (and that’s not including the astronomical cost of the rest of the “protocol”) for something that in all likelihood won’t make a bit of difference?

It really is a sad state of affairs when the so many people, in a financial environment such as this, are still so eager to throw money down the toilet…

The HFCS topic is both hotly debated and grossly misunderstood. Anyone with a basic background in chemistry can look at the chemical structure of HFCS, then at table sugar, and tell you they look basically the same. Yes, HFCS is a staple in a lot of processed junk. But guess what, even if you swap HFCS for table sugar, it’s still processed junk.

And unless sugary drinks and packaged baked goods are a mainstay of your diet, you’re simply not getting that much added sugar on a daily basis. These sort of debates (HFCS vs. table sugar, sweet potatoes vs. white potatoes) only serve to confuse rather than educate the general public. I have quite a few so-called ‘health conscious’ friends who go out of their way to purchase imported coca-cola from Mexico because – guess what – no HFCS!

And it’s not just Alan or myself that agree on this. The FDA lumps HFCS in with all added sugars which, yes, should be limited. But not as obsessively as some fitness folk think. Their recommendation is to consume no more than 25% of your daily calories in the form of added sugar. That’s a bit high for my tastes. I’d stick it somewhere between 10-20%.

All of this needs to be tempered by the lesson we learned from Lyle. Physics matter. Unless you’re in a caloric surplus, obsessing about sugar in your diet is a waste of precious brain power. People conflate these issues and ignore the big picture only to their own detriment.

“I have read a lot of your material and I think that you (and Lyle) are clearly serious individuals who have a substantial interest in good science. Thus I am surprised that you have concluded that HFCS is largely benign as I think there is ample evidence to demonstrate otherwise.”
_________________________________________________

You’ve misread my stance. Whether or not HFCS is benign is entirely dependent on dosage and context. Avoiding any trace of it like the plague is just silly. Oversonsuming it – like overconsuming anything else – can have adverse effects. In other words, it’s no better or worse for you compared to sucrose. Dosage & context is key.
_________________________________________________

The same is not true for the effect of fructose on lipid metabolism as it has been clearly demonstrated that ingestion of beverages containing HFCS with a meal have distinct effect on postpradial lipid metabolism and lipogenesis. Try a search from Reference Manager via PubMed on the terms “Lipemia” and “Fructose” and you will get over 200 artciles, most of them on point.

I’ll comment on your links in the order you listed tham. Again, the good or bad of fructose is entirely dependent upon dosage & context.

The 1st study you cited was an acute-effect trial comparing 2 diets containing 30% of total kcals from either free fructose or free glucose. In the beginning, that’s a highly artificial scenario, since most commercial products contain glucose & fructose in a 1:1 ratio, rarely 100% isolated as either-or. Moreover, at a mean energy intake of 1804 kcal, 30% of this = 135.3 g. I hope you realize that it’s a pretty far-fetched scenario for anyone remotely health-conscious to consume 135.3 g isolated fructose per day (this would take about 7 non-diet soft drinks per day), especially under dieting or mainetnance conditions.

In the 2nd study you cited, subjects were given 0.75 g sugar (fructose or glucose)/kg body wt + 0.5 g fat/kg, after an overnight fast. This works out to about 55g sugar + 38g fat. In order to consume 55 g fructose in the real world, you’d have to consume 110 g sucrose or HFCS. It goes without saying that this test meal is highly far-fetched. Again, dosage & context.

In the 3rd study you cited, 85 g single doses were compared in fasted subjects. This information has limited applicability to the real world, and nealry zero applicability to the context of the trained state, where the metabolic milieu is drastically different than the resting state. Once again, everything is dependent upon dosage and context. To quote researcher John White, “Thus, studies using extreme carbohydrate diets may be useful for probing biochemical pathways, but they have no relevance to the human diet or to current consumption”

“I have read a lot of your material and I think that you (and Lyle) are clearly serious individuals who have a substantial interest in good science. Thus I am surprised that you have concluded that HFCS is largely benign as I think there is ample evidence to demonstrate otherwise.”
_________________________________________________

You’ve misread my stance. Whether or not HFCS is benign is entirely dependent on dosage and context. Avoiding any trace of it like the plague is just silly. Oversonsuming it – like overconsuming anything else – can have adverse effects. In other words, it’s no better or worse for you compared to sucrose. Dosage & context is key.
_________________________________________________

The same is not true for the effect of fructose on lipid metabolism as it has been clearly demonstrated that ingestion of beverages containing HFCS with a meal have distinct effect on postpradial lipid metabolism and lipogenesis. Try a search from Reference Manager via PubMed on the terms “Lipemia” and “Fructose” and you will get over 200 artciles, most of them on point.

Here are a few publicly accessable links that explore the mechanisms:
___________________________________________________

I’ll comment on your links in the order you listed them. Again, the good or bad of fructose is entirely dependent upon dosage & context.

The 1st study you cited was an acute-effect trial comparing 2 diets containing 30% of total kcals from either free fructose or free glucose. In the beginning, that’s a highly artificial scenario, since most commercial products contain glucose & fructose in a 1:1 ratio, rarely 100% isolated as either-or. Moreover, at a mean energy intake of 1804 kcal, 30% of this = 135.3 g. I hope you realize that it’s a pretty far-fetched scenario for anyone remotely health-conscious to consume 135.3 g isolated fructose per day (this would take about 7 non-diet soft drinks per day), especially under dieting or mainetnance conditions.

In the 2nd study you cited, subjects were given 0.75 g sugar (fructose or glucose)/kg body wt + 0.5 g fat/kg, after an overnight fast. This works out to about 55g sugar + 38g fat. In order to consume 55 g fructose in the real world, you’d have to consume 110 g sucrose or HFCS. It goes without saying that this test meal is highly far-fetched. Again, dosage & context.

In the 3rd study you cited, 85 g single doses were compared in fasted subjects. This information has limited applicability to the real world, and nealry zero applicability to the context of the trained state, where the metabolic milieu is drastically different than the resting state. Once again, everything is dependent upon dosage and context. To quote researcher John White, “Thus, studies using extreme carbohydrate diets may be useful for probing biochemical pathways, but they have no relevance to the human diet or to current consumption”

Under excessively hypercaloric conditions (ie, more than required for lean growth), you risk obesity and all of its associated pathologies (keep in mind that this wouldn’t be due to the sugars per se, but rather the overall caloric excess, with the sugar being just a contributor). Under hypocaloric conditions, depending on just how hypo + just how high your proportion of CHO cals are added sugars, you risk micronutrient deficiency. I should mention that under maintenance conditions with added sugar kept below 20% of total kcals, there’s little evidence that micronutrient intake is significantly compromised.

J-Fit on
August 22nd, 2009 8:56 pm

As a loyal Biotest customer, I have stated my concerns on the marketing of this program and its promises from the start.

At the same time, I remember reading people doubting the effectiveness of Mag-10 before it hit the market, stating that 20 lb gains were unbelievable, but behold that stuff rocked.

Granted, this is different, and $80 for a bottle of anaconda is absurd, which I guarantee when is released, out of nowhere at the last minute they will have found a way to reduce the cost.

Considering most people suck with eating right, a given plan like this adding in all those carbs and protein should prove effective for many people. it’s the advanced trainees that know what they were doing prior to it and how they will respond is what will be interesting to see.

At the same time, since things are moderated there heavily, how many negative posts will come through?

And really, they’ve said for how long now that Anaconda hasn’t been released because the supply isn’t there? But, i guess it will magically be fully in stock with I,BB is released.

BTW- I’ve seen the ingredients list of Anaconda from Elitefts site, has Casein Hydrolysate (which is masked under the name Mag-10 protein I assume), along with creatine pyruvate and some other minor stuff.

Tmember on
August 22nd, 2009 8:59 pm

Let me just say, that I completely agree that “the nation” has been essentially lying to their customers.

However, I can say that I have tried their basic premise ie. a high dose of carbs +aminos +Casein Hydrosylate around my workouts and I have noticed a significant improvement.
Also, let me say that I am an advanced trainee who has used steroids and has something to compare it to. IT IS NO WHERE NEAR say 30mg of dianabol near workout. The muscle gains, are no where near what they would be with steroids. HOWEVER, there is a significant improvement compared to my old weight training approach. Again, I dont even use Biotest supplements because I think the whole “special” carbs thing is bull shit. Waxy maize + gatorade has been my source. SO while I cant say, “I Bodybuilder” is something of the future, I can say that I will keep a high dose of carbs + aminos around my workout.

Tmember: While I have no plan to get involved with the rest of this, your example is irrelevant. The idea of consuming protein/carbsaround training has been around since hte 90’s. At least post-workout was. And pre-workout is nothing new. It’s not THEIR CONCEPT. It’s A concept. And you’d get just as good results with cheaper stuff. The end.

Casein hydrolysate is an idiotic concept anyhow:
a. The benefits of casein is to be slow. Why would you try to make it faster?
b. Even with that studies comparing casein hydrolysate to it’s native protein show essentially NO difference in digestion speed. You’re paying god knows how much for a protien that tastes like shit for NO BENEFIT.

You could drink milk post workout and whey before and grow just as well without paying t-nation for overpriced overhyped crap.

This will be my only comment.

Lyle

J-Fit on
August 22nd, 2009 9:15 pm

Lyle,
I haven’t read anything on casein H, but on T-Nation it’s been stated that just 12g is equivalent to many times the amount of whey (like 40g or so). Is this true, and if it is, how so?

Tmember on
August 22nd, 2009 9:19 pm

Oh Alan,
Could you comment on the comparison of Casein Hydrosylate vs. BCAAs for absorption? Is there a significant difference in your opinion?

LYLEMCD

in response to your comment, this is the study that I found that I based my opinion of CH off of.

Koopman R, Crombach N, Gijsen AP, Walrand S, Fauquant J, Kies AK, Lemosquet S, Saris WH, Boirie Y, van Loon LJ.
BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, is more easily digested and absorbed from the gut, which results in greater plasma amino acid availability and a greater muscle protein synthetic response. OBJECTIVE: We aimed to compare dietary protein digestion and absorption kinetics and the subsequent muscle protein synthetic response to the ingestion of a single bolus of protein hydrolysate compared with its intact protein in vivo in humans. DESIGN: Ten elderly men (mean +/- SEM age: 64 +/- 1 y) were randomly assigned to a crossover experiment that involved 2 treatments in which the subjects consumed a 35-g bolus of specifically produced l-[1-(13)C]phenylalanine-labeled intact casein (CAS) or hydrolyzed casein (CASH). Blood and muscle-tissue samples were collected to assess the appearance rate of dietary protein-derived phenylalanine in the circulation and subsequent muscle protein fractional synthetic rate over a 6-h postprandial period. RESULTS: The mean (+/-SEM) exogenous phenylalanine appearance rate was 27 +/- 6% higher after ingestion of CASH when compared with CAS (P < 0.001). Splanchnic extraction was significantly lower in CASH compared with CAS treatment (P < 0.01). Plasma amino acid concentrations increased to a greater extent (25-50%) after the ingestion of CASH than with CAS (P < 0.01). Muscle protein synthesis rates averaged 0.054 +/- 0.004% and 0.068 +/- 0.006%/h in the CAS and CASH treatments, respectively (P = 0.10). CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, accelerates protein digestion and absorption from the gut, augments postprandial amino acid availability, and tends to increase the incorporation rate of dietary amino acids into skeletal muscle protein.

anonymous on
August 22nd, 2009 9:54 pm

Great article, but it misses the point. The point is anyone who would buy the scam supplements that t-nation sells isn’t smart enough to look at research.

J-Fit on
August 22nd, 2009 10:03 pm

Anonymous- are all Biotest supps a scam to you? If so why? or particular ones?

I just wanted to say that Nate Green is absolute garbage. His whole how to pull ass through lifting bit is pathetic. If I see his name on a article I won’t even read it. Surge workout fuel is garbage, although I like normal Surge. Anybody remember all that hype they put out with 11-T? They don’t even sell that crap anymore and they have basically disavowed any knowledge of the product.

J-Fit on
August 22nd, 2009 10:22 pm

Necrondi, some of us have positive results with 11-T. That was a bit sketchy how it went away, though the recent outlash by the FDA about products along the lines of 11-T makes me wonder what made Biotest really pull it.

NECRONDI on
August 22nd, 2009 10:49 pm

J-fit, I considered using 11-T, but due to the outrageous price I decided to hold and see the results in the forum. I never saw any. I saw people who attempted to start threads about 11-T but they never got off the ground. What are your thought on the Surge WF and Nate?

anonymous on
August 22nd, 2009 11:01 pm

J-Fit:

You are a troll.

J-Fit on
August 22nd, 2009 11:15 pm

Anonymous, apparently you don’t understand the definition of “troll” but whatever.
Necrondi- My opinion on SWF and Nate Green? those are 2 vastly different subjects. Unless you’re referring to the whole I,BBer thing which I commented on above.
And anonymous-perhaps you missed my skepticism on it as well in my above post.

As an intelligent, discerning reader as you described in your article, the thing that’s the most annoying about T-nation and similar sites is that it makes some of their legitimate advice less credible sometimes. Sometimes they have some real great guys writing for them, like Dan john a personal favorite, coming up with really sound advice. But you can always tell when something’s being sold to you when you read a Tnation article and you start to see more than a few of those little red links to the Biotest shop.

I felt the worst for some of the naive guys that read the I Bodybuilder, because as dense as some of these guys may be to shell out $80 [which is really a deal btw! because it costs $90 to make and you’re getting FREE SHIPPING!!! /dripping sarcasm] its a shame because ultimately they’re just innocent guys trying to reach their goals getting ripped off by some pandering a**holes.

Someone needs to launch a full on viral attack to get articles like these to the attention of some of those poor T forum guys. Keep doing what you do man.

Yash

PS- by far my favorite [and by favorite, i mean facepalm-worthy for anyone who fell for this] is Biotest’s German creatine. Apparently, if you take a common universally cheaply available supplement and get it made in Germany, you can instantly double the price!

J-Fit on
August 22nd, 2009 11:28 pm

Yash,
What’s the going rate for creatine mono these days? I buy biotest’s german because at $13 for 100 servings, it’s far from breaking the bank.

As I mentioned, absorption through the gut is the rate-limiter for the appearance of aminos & glucose in the blood. So, if you think that chuggalugging massive amounts of CHO & AA during training (despite being in the absorptive phase of a preworkout meal) is working some magic, then more placebro power to you. Regarding casein hydro vs BCAA, in the absence of head-to-head comparisons, I think any speculation here would just be useless wanking. Let me remind you, however, that high-protein diets typical of the BBing population have plenty of preexistent BCAA, so supping BCAA on top of that is highly questionable.

Also, be weary of staking your entire belief on a single studiy funded by the maker of the product tested. That trial you listed used Peptoro, and was funded by DSM, the makers of Peptopro. As I’ll show you, non-vested trials aren’t as optimistic. But more importantly, consider the fact that this trial compared protein-only solutions. With your peri-training drink being a mix of protein & carb (as it should), the differences in absorption & utilization between protein types can get reduced to jack crap. For example:
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Plasma amino acid responses after consumption of beverages with varying protein type.

Hydrolyzed dietary casein as compared with the intact protein reduces postprandial peripheral, but not whole-body, uptake of nitrogen in humans.

Deglaire A, et al. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Aug 19. [Epub ahead of print]

BACKGROUND: Compared with slow proteins, fast proteins are more completely extracted in the splanchnic bed but contribute less to peripheral protein accretion; however, the independent influence of absorption kinetics and the amino acid (AA) pattern of dietary protein on AA anabolism in individual tissues remains unknown. OBJECTIVE: We aimed to compare the postprandial regional utilization of proteins with similar AA profiles but different absorption kinetics by coupling clinical experiments with compartmental modeling. DESIGN: Experimental data pertaining to the intestine, blood, and urine for dietary nitrogen kinetics after a (15)N-labeled intact (IC) or hydrolyzed (HC) casein meal were obtained in parallel groups of healthy adults (n = 21) and were analyzed by using a 13-compartment model to predict the cascade of dietary nitrogen absorption and regional metabolism. RESULTS: IC and HC elicited a similar whole-body postprandial retention of dietary nitrogen, but HC was associated with a faster rate of absorption than was IC, resulting in earlier and stronger hyperaminoacidemia and hyperinsulinemia. An enhancement of both catabolic (26%) and anabolic (37%) utilization of dietary nitrogen occurred in the splanchnic bed at the expense of its further peripheral availability, which reached 18% and 11% of ingested nitrogen, respectively, 8 h after the IC and HC meals. CONCLUSIONS: The form of delivery of dietary AAs constituted an independent factor of modulation of their postprandial regional metabolism, with a fast supply favoring the splanchnic dietary nitrogen uptake over its peripheral anabolic use. These results question a possible effect of ingestion of protein hydrolysates on tissue nitrogen metabolism and accretion. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCTNCT00873951.

Moral of the story is, there doesn’t appear to be anything special about casein hydrolysate or PeptoBro, outside of a single company-funded trial. And, when you throw other substrates into the mix (ie, carbs), all this purported specialness really gets blown to crap.

I like Dan John’s stuff as well. He seems to have his head screwed on tight as far as lifting goes, and his reputation is very strong in that department – one of the best. However, the only thing I remember reading from him in T-mag were his contributions to a (mostly) carbophobic roundtable. Ugh. That was not pretty.

TSkeptic on
August 23rd, 2009 1:54 am

I do like the Spike drinks, but the majority of the supplements seem like fairly common things dressed up to be more than they are.

For what its worth, I consume whey hydrolysate during/after my workouts since, for me at least, the jury is still out and I get it for the same price as whey isolate. I have no other use for protein powder as I prefer whole foods, so my $9 a lb goes to whey hydrolysate.

There is a silent of majority of members at Tnation who don’t buy the hype and are there because of the community.

I remember reading Lyle’s tifts with Chris Shugart from back in the day. Glad to see Lyle is still doing his thing and Shugart has gotten even more into eating disorders.

Tmember on
August 23rd, 2009 1:56 am

Thanks Alan

I appreciate your comments, and I really appreciate your demeanor. I don’t understand why all the (other) internet gurus have to be dicks when they respond.

I must say Alan Aragon has completely lost any credibility imo. Two articles bashing tnation from that site seem to form somewhat of an agenda. The first was comparing choclate milk to surge recovery and by playing with numbers and ignoring the large disparity between amounts of fast acting proteins, fast acting carbs and leucine between the two Aragon came to the conclusion that chocolate milk is the same if not better.

The second article begins by refuting CT’s claims using a chart that has “Realistic Rates of Lean Body Mass Gain Based on Training Status”. Apparently if you’ve been training for more than four years then you will gain at best .5-.8lbs of muscle per month. He also sites the few AAS studies that show that cycles under 10 weeks only generate 2kg-5kg in BODYWEIGHT. This is complete BS as anyone can tell you that even with ancilliaries, water retention alone can acount for 2kg or more. Certainly advanced users will in general not see as big of gains as a newbie on thier first cycle…but the assertions are still bullshit.

Fuck, 12 lbs of Bodyweight for a 10 week cycle of gear? I don’t think so. Unless you’re using…I dunno….low dose Anavar or something. Or you’re a chick. Don’t even get me started on that God. Damned. Table.

And as TC himself wrote:

“Anyhow, the naysayer is a guy whose articles I rejected, so I think hes got a bug up his ass towards me and Biotest. (Think of the Glenn Close character in Fatal Attraction and you’ve got him pegged.) ”

People it seems will believe anything they read on the internet. This article is so full of holes it’s not funny.

SkeptixDude on
August 23rd, 2009 10:51 am

What pissed me off is that this training protocol isn’t workable without buying the overpriced supplements to go with it. I still visit the forums for a laugh though. I love how some of the guys on the forums actually think physiques like Steve Reeves, Reg Park and Frank Zane are easily attainable.

To Steve:
———————————————————————————————-
I must say Alan Aragon has completely lost any credibility imo. Two articles bashing tnation from that site seem to form somewhat of an agenda. The first was comparing choclate milk to surge recovery and by playing with numbers and ignoring the large disparity between amounts of fast acting proteins, fast acting carbs and leucine between the two Aragon came to the conclusion that chocolate milk is the same if not better.
————————————————————————————————————————
First off, if I lost credibility with YOU, then good. You probably have your nose so far up Biotest’s ass, that there’ no way you can wake up & smell the coffee. Second, if I wanted to play with numbers in the milk vs Surge comparison, I wouldn’t have compared isocaloric amounts. As for the disparity between leucine & protein, I’ll quote the article: “Adding a few grams of supplemental BCAA to a pre-existent high intake within the diet is not likely to yield any magic.”
————————————————————————————————————————
The second article begins by refuting CT’s claims using a chart that has “Realistic Rates of Lean Body Mass Gain Based on Training Status”. Apparently if you’ve been training for more than four years then you will gain at best .5-.8lbs of muscle per month. He also sites the few AAS studies that show that cycles under 10 weeks only generate 2kg-5kg in BODYWEIGHT. This is complete BS as anyone can tell you that even with ancilliaries, water retention alone can acount for 2kg or more. Certainly advanced users will in general not see as big of gains as a newbie on thier first cycle…but the assertions are still bullshit.
————————————————————————————————————————
If you’ve been training & consistently gaining at a maximal rate for 4 years, then indeed, your rates will progressively slow down to the ballpark I listed. If you were training to maintain, or were training casually for 4 years, then decided to really step up your efforts & protocol (I dunno, maybe buy some Anaconda, bro), then of course, that’s not what I was referring to, and you need to sharpen your reading comprehension. Also, drop your cherries and re-read the study durations of the AAS research I cited before you omit information I gave.
————————————————————————————————————————
And as TC himself wrote:

“Anyhow, the naysayer is a guy whose articles I rejected, so I think hes got a bug up his ass towards me and Biotest. (Think of the Glenn Close character in Fatal Attraction and you’ve got him pegged.) ”

People it seems will believe anything they read on the internet. This article is so full of holes it’s not funny.
————————————————————————————————————————
If my article is so full of holes, then they must be tiny perforations compared to the new asshole I just ripped you & your love for the propagation of bullshit. As for TC rejecting my articles, I was invited by their editorial director to write for them. I got an article published (which I’m sure you read), and never even bothered to submit anything after that… So, go & ahead keep up, my ‘credibility’ is depending on dudes like you.

Chris B on
August 23rd, 2009 11:43 am

to Steve

Alan and Lyle are the guy with the most credibility out there. If you’re not clever enough to realize that, then keep reading t-douchbag.

So Steve, tell us, if the muscle gain expectation told by Alan are bullshit, what you, obviously a guy who knows everything, would tell us that we can expect? And base on what? On thin air? You cannot even come close to write an article that would discribed realistic expactation in muscle gain based on science and real life experience with TONZ of athlete of all kind.

Your logic is impeccable, you’re saying tha part of the weight gain in the study Alan cited was probably water. Which means that TRUE muscle gain was even less.

With steroids.

Case in point, a strength coach friend of mine was in Germany coaching during the drug years. Using every drug known to god and man they had trouble putting 6-8 kg of muscle on their advanced athletes. Do the math, that’s about 0.33 lbs/week. WITH DRUGS and insane training and the elite athletes. And you’re saying you can beat that.

But you keep believing that your work ethic and T-nation supplements can beat that. Or, better yet, prove us wrong, show us your amazing advanced gains before and after over a year. You can assert all you want, now prove that you can do it.

I’ll expect you to stand on the Olympia stage as a natural in 2010. Or 2011 by the latest. Because clearly you and you alone know how to beat these results that have NEVER been seen ever in natural athletes. Put your money where your mouth is, son.

And to the agenda comment: give me a break. Tnation allows no criticism of their articles or products without moderation or deletion of posts that might hurt their bottom line. That’s an agenda. I let Alan run his stuff here because my site gets traffic and his doesn’t and so people can discuss it WITHOUT censorship.

Lyle

Dustin on
August 23rd, 2009 12:10 pm

Poor Steve… At least his farts will be silent now.

I have to admit Alan when I first found out about T-Nation 3 years ago, I spent a lot of money on supplements over there. On first order, after being deceived into believing their supplements would really add a shit ton of lbs to my deadlift, squat, and bench, I spent an excess of $150 just to get free shipping back in the day. After a while, I stopped using their supplements and realized what a waste of money when real food with common sense was all that mattered. I remember any posts I made at their forums were heavily moderated and I couldn’t mention any “competitive rival” for the sake of their “millions of cash flow a year.” I even remember some kid getting banned from their forums 3 times because be bashed fish oil’s claims at that website (something along the lines that fish oil would be the answer to more muscle).

Their products are decent but overpriced. Their ways of deception work well for new members and for someone who goes to their forums. You pretty much get brainwashed into believing Biotest supplements are the best. I remember a T-Nation member who goes by JehovahsWitness who absolutely nut hugged the shit out of their supplements. Even I wasn’t foolish enough to drop the outrageous amount of cash on 11-T (he was raving in a cultish attitude). When I saw how out of shape he was, I felt a bit sad for the sucker.

A direct quote from their ad on their line of BCAAs:
(from Christian Thibaudeau)
“Each serving would ideally be 10 grams; that will give you the best gains by far. The results are very close to being drug-like, and I’m not one to say this lightly. I put my reputation on the line.”

He’s putting his “reputation” on the line once more, taking another bullet for Biotest and giving them a ton of potential buckeroos from noobies. If I just found out about T-nation and saw this, I would have surely fallen for it. The online cult lives on.

SkeptixDude on
August 23rd, 2009 12:30 pm

“Skeptix WHY are they not attainable ??”

I didn’t say they weren’t attainable. I just laugh at some of the forum guys thinking that it is ‘EASILY” attainable only if they eat their way to 300+ on a 5’9 frame. But by golly when they ‘cut’ they will be 250lbs+, ripped and ready for the Olympia all natural

mark on
August 23rd, 2009 12:42 pm

I’ve been a T-Nation member since 2006. I’ve learned a lot of valuable stuff from the site, as when I first began I knew nothing (less than nothing, really), and spent my days doing bench and curls.

I love their protein powder, Metabolic Drive. I think it tastes good, although it is kind of expensive. I used to buy Surge, but don’t really anymore as it was a little too expensive and I am a cheapskate. I knew that there was nothing special about it, and to be honest I just liked the taste.

My biggest pet peeve of T-Nation is that they censor a lot of my posts. Many of them aren’t even really being critical–they are just legitimate questions.

I will admit, when I saw the whole I Bodybuilder thing I really cringed. I mean, c’mon Biotest. I always hear how they are so much different from other supplement companies, than they go in do something like that.

Devon T on
August 23rd, 2009 12:52 pm

Steve,

You claiming that Alan lost his credibility with this article shows that you are a hopeless shill.

Alan has nothing to hide, and everything to lose if he tries to BS the public. There’s a good reason why he and Lyle are two of the most respected guys in the industry, just as there’s a reason why the Biotest forums are known as a playground for gullible noobs.

I was introduced to bodybuilding through T-Nation, so I give them credit for some of the good information they used to give. But unfortunately they’ve turned into the equivalent of a Cell Tech ad in FLEX magazine.

What Alan did was give the BS Machine a much needed slap in the face. Good job Alan, thanks Lyle for hosting this.

Best,

DT

Mike on
August 23rd, 2009 1:02 pm

Alan,

I’d say that you MORE than clarified a whole lot for me. I appreciate your extremely thorough post. It’s beyond appreciated, so thank you very much.

Bill on
August 23rd, 2009 1:37 pm

Alan,

A few years back I would just buy regular Surge from Biotest and drink one serving before/during, one serving after, and then eat a whole food meal maybe an hour or two later. This in conjunction with the rest of my daily intake/diet resulted in gains in size and a level of leanness I was very pleased with. A few years have passed since then, and I am back to starting at square one……………..I was in a serious accident that robbed me of the last 2 full years of training, but not after rehabbing significantly I am ready to really start getting after it again. It’s fortunate that in the interim I came across Lyle’s website, and by association, your work. What modification(s) would you suggest for pre/during/post training nutrition to what I had been doing years ago? On the one hand I am tempted to just go with what seemed to pan out for me personally, but if there are even simpler options that would be as or even more effective, I’d probably be foolish to stay my old course.

I’m getting the feeling that any quality whey product (for pre and post) or solid food/whey pre and milk post would be effective and simple options, but I am specifically interested in what to do about carbs. Surge had dextrose and maltodextrin, but these don’t offer much beyond fuel/substrate to replenish glycogen. As such I am wondering if indeed whole food carb sources are indeed the way to go when consuming additional carbs either before or after (in addition to the sugars in milk if going that route). During seems like a trickier proposition, since liquid would be easier, but then again a good blender can make any type of fruit liquid in no time.

Any general ideas would be great, as you’ve got me thinking that simply going back to lining Biotest’s pockets may not be in my best interest.

Alicia on
August 23rd, 2009 1:43 pm

Alan,

In light of the “exposé” on T-nation marketing, I wanted to ask the following question, since it is not an elaborate protocol by any stretch but may not exactly be worth the extra money, either. 3-5g leucine with solid food meals and added to a pre or post-training drink……….possibly of benefit or just another marketing ploy? I’m leaning toward the latter, especially if consuming plenty of protein as it is, and even more so in a shake around training. That said, I wanted to ask straight up just to make sure I am not tossing aside something for no reason, and you have infinitely more knowledge in these areas than I ever will.

Is it hard to be that smart and gifted when it comes to critically examining research and separating fact from fiction? As someone who feels bogged down by the mere thought of looking at everything I am doing and deciding if it’s evidence-based or just buying into myth, I can appreciate what a monumental effort it must be to go through so much research and distill it. I would guess it must take you hours a day……………………but you seem so sharp I suspect it must take you a fraction of that time. It’s beyond impressive when a fallible human being makes you start wondering if he is ever not right on top of things when he speaks and provides answers.

Tillergoat on
August 23rd, 2009 2:08 pm

I like that TC explicitly used his profit motive as a justification for censoring posts questioning T-Nation’s marketing. See his comment about “bread.”

As for credibility, what kind of credibility can one claim when censoring — rather than substantively rebutting — any comment that questions one’s profit-oriented marketing?

None.

quibble on
August 23rd, 2009 4:00 pm

Alan,

What are your thoughts on this protein pulsing (12g of casein hydro at intervals throughout the day, when blood leves of AA are low) Thibadeau keeps talking about…I know you already talked about pepto pro above.

To quickly add on to quibble’s question, is there value in having one “low(er)” protein day per week compared to intake on other days. Thibaudeau often mentions the words habituation and blackout when discussing protein intake, but (at least on the surface), claiming 1 lower protein day/week will have a significant impact seems like claiming that one cheat meal per week will be of any major benefit other than from a mental standpoint.

I concede, the price has since gone down. My reference was the $20 they used to sell it for, which was about double most others, and a little more than double of what I buy. Even now, I buy a kilo, or about 200 servings for around 15 bucks. I don’t consider the shipping a considerable price since its a flat rate lumped in with the total order which is much larger. My point was just that when it used to cost around 20 bucks, they tried to use the ad pitch of it being from germany to sell it, when it’s pretty much all the same shit.

Alan,
I haven’t seen that roundtable. I’ve read almost all his other articles from T-nation as well as a lot of other stuff he’s written. Speaking of carbophobic, I wasn’t completely in that camp, but I believed pretty strongly that it was the way to go until I read some of your stuff from different places. Thanks for that.

Question: I’ve found so many different answers on this, I was wondering what you thought: What’s the verdict, or at least loosely established belief, on eating fats and carbs simultaneously? There’s some that say any fat with your carbs will get stored because of insulin etc, while others [and this seems to be the more logical point] say that the fat gets stored anyway, so don’t worry about it. As someone with a mixed macro diet, maybe a little higher in fat than most, would you suggest keeping higher carb meals separate from higher fat meals? Or does this fall into your previous statement about not worrying about nutrient timing so much as total daily consumption? Thanks in advance.

This myth – that the concurrent consumption of carbohydrates and fat in a meal leads to additional fat gain – needs to die.

It’s based off the gross misinterpretation of some research that came out in 1996, propagated erroneously across the Internet by a few choice articles. For what it’s worth, the author of those articles has changed his stance on this research and now says, in so few words, ‘it doesn’t matter.’

The (His?) theory goes something like this. When insulin levels are high, elevated by the consumption of carbohydrate, circulating dietary fat has a better chance of being stored in the body.

This presumes that fat gain or loss is a product of isolated, acute behaviors, when in reality fat gain is the product of a chronic hypo or hyper-caloric condition extrapolated temporally. Insulin just doesn’t work like that, and plays a minimal, minimal role in our war against adiposity.

I suggest you look back a few weeks at Lyle’s post on thermodynamics.

Physics matter, kids.

I have no idea where this theory came from. The single study out there comparing P+C vs. P+F meals showed that the group who consumed mixed meals (P+F+C) netted greater weight loss than the separation group:

You’re digesting meals for hours and hours after you consume them. That means _even_ if you’re neurotic about separating carbohydrates from fat, eating say one P+C meal, then 3 hours later eating a P+F meal, you’re still digesting that first meal when you consume the follow-up meal.

And if memory serves correctly, there were a few studies showing that despite differences in fasting insulin levels, a product of varied daily macro-nutrient percentages under iso-caloric conditions, no differences were seen in fat loss regardless of the percentage of fat or carbohydrate in the diets.

I have to jet. I’m sure Alan can add to the discussion.

Lesson of the Day: Keep the butter on your toast.

James on
August 23rd, 2009 6:53 pm

Great Article, Alan. T-Nation has some great articles if you look for them. The problem is you have to go through all the marketing BS, the authors with their head up their ass (Waterbury, Nate Green, TC) and, simply, tons of garbage articles written for 160 pound high school juniors. I visit the site often, pick and choose what I read, scan the forums for some comedy and the occasional rant from an educated poster. I must say, the I,Bodybuilder article by Nate Green made me sick to my stomach. What a cleverly disguised marketing pitch (to the average reader). Even worse was TC’s article pertaining to the discussion forums. Basically him crying about people being skeptical of a program they haven’t tried yet. Sure, TC, I won’t be a skeptic. Let me just throw down 90 bucks for this magic supplement. You’d like that, right? What a f*ckin joke.

Just base your carb & protein sources on personal preference. As I’ve stated before, the importance of nutrient timing is overblown since most of us train in a fed state rather than a fasted one. That said, having whey & milk around the workout is a good move. Convenient, cheap, scientifically supported…and effective.

He wrote the Chocolate Milk article BECAUSE he indeed was schooling Bill but his posts weren’t passing moderation. So Bill was able to write what he wanted without reproach. So he basically kept misrepresenting Alan’s point and then attacking them as if Alan had made them (kinda like what he is doing now).

Let me tell you what you won’t see. Bill represent his ideas in a form where he can’t control the responses. That should “say it all”.

I read the article and the article isn’t about bashing T-Nation but rather refuting the claims made. Will someone defend the claims or is this gonna continue to be a us against them pissing match?

It would be interesting to discover who this “kribrg” is. It will be obvious to anyone who has read my posts over time that this person is a tool and/or a sock puppet.

Aragon’s posts in fact passed moderation. That is how he was able to have his discussion with me on the subject. And btw, how this individual — with only 4 posts — claims to be familiar with how a thread was moderated here nearly a year ago is indeed a thing to wonder at.

Aragon’s basic problem was that his arguing that the best post-training nutrition for a 12 year old is chocolate milk as the sole item recommended to be consumed (32 g protein per quart which is reasonable, but 95 g sugars, of which more than half is, typically, high fructose corn syrup and if not, is added sucrose) is foolish and incorrect. There is no way to “school” anyone about how something as far off as that is supposedly correct.

After I pointed the extreme amount of added sugar involved in his recommendation for the young lad, thus making his recommendation bad, he tried to pretend that a 12 year old, having had nothing before the training and nothing during, wouldn’t consume so much even if it were the only item offered, and supposedly I was being unreasonable in giving a quart as an example. But he provided no figure of his own and the kid’s own mother agreed that if that were the only food offered, a quart at least would be wanted. I think anyone who knows kids that age or remembers drinking milk at that age would agree.

Furthermore, Aragon also ignored that I in fact did not recommend Surge but rather gave a food-based solution, on account of having no evidence that a big glucose hit at any time is the ideal thing for a person so young (what with increased prevalence of Type II diabetes in the young) and that hockey training was not presenting the same situation as resistance training with regard to stimulating muscular growth, therefore what Surge is designed to do was not targeted for the situation at hand. The mom and I settled on some chicken and rice with some NON-sugar sweetened milk, as I recall.

However Aragon had a hard-on for Surge for some reason and continued to bring the argument back to that.

Thanks for posting that, good to see that Bill is just as honest & accurate as ever. I’m being sarcastic, of course. Fact remains that a) I was annoyingly censored enough that it motivated me to write the choc milk vs surge article, and b) Bill simply would not & could not provide research evidence refuting my contentions. Instead, he built strawmen and danced around the direct questions like a pro.

If you want an honest, real-time account of how the Alan & Bill debate went down, register at the site & have a look at this, and note how the links within that thread have been deleted by T-mag (no doubt to save face):

Thanks for posting that, good to see that Bill is just as honest & accurate as ever. I’m being sarcastic, of course. Fact remains that a) I was censored frequently enough in that debate to motivate me to write the choc milk vs surge article, and b) Bill simply would not & could not provide research evidence refuting my contentions. Instead, he built strawmen and danced around the direct questions like a pro.

You (& everyone else) should give Matt P’s link a read. Also, if you want an honest, real-time account of how the Alan & Bill debate went down, register at the site & have a look at this, and note how the links within that thread have been deleted by T-mag (no doubt to save face):

Alicia, I’ll be back to answer your question, hopefully tonight if not some time tomorrow.

John Calla on
August 23rd, 2009 9:30 pm

The T forums are absolutely horrible. Horrible. I have never seen so many people in a single location so far detached from reality. Even the bb.com forums are easier to read, and we all know what those look like.

I am convinced if Arnold posted a pic to the T forums during his prime the responses would be, “Wow bro, you’re a stick figure,” or, “Dude you really need to start eating,” or my personal favorite, “Well here’s one more example that proves that bodybuilding routines simply don’t work; clearly it has to be powerlifting all the way bros.”

I think a lot of what they have on there now is a turn-off to most people. Not everyone is going for the circus freak look.

SkeptixDude on
August 23rd, 2009 10:24 pm

I agree John. Some of those guys are trying to eat their way to 300+ pounds naturally and then think that magically one day when they decide to “cut” they will be 250+ ripped and under 6ft tall, all natural. Hell, look at the 18 inch arms thread, a member came in( who had a great physique) bashing the OP and another member for looking fat(and they are) and he was immediately hounded for pretty much telling the truth that some people can’t bare to hear.

Jeff on
August 23rd, 2009 10:59 pm

Alan,

This is a very straightforward question…..would Greek-strained yogurt be a good choice pre and/or post training? I rarely if ever drink milk these days (no particular reason for this though), but for some reason I’ve taken quite a liking to this stuff. I often mix it up with some fruit and have it later in the evening, but if it gets the thumbs up, I just may have to start using it around training, too. I get the feeling that it fits the bill but just wanted to know you general thoughts, since the composition is a bit different than you average carton of milk, but it is still a dairy product.

And thank you again for sharing your expertise with us. It’s a privilege to read your uncensored/unvarnished thoughts.

This certainly isn’t the first or the last time that Biotest will lie about its products to fill their bank account. Does anyone remember back when they were still pushing Carbolin-19? They knowingly lied about the source and contents of a research article and then in a follow-up article the altered the numbers to inflate the increases in t-levels.

Elissa Lowe (she writes supplement reviews for UltimateFatBurner.com) wrote a review on Biotest’s Carbolin-19. She contacted the lead author of the study that Biotest had doctored his results on and he was pissed. He gave Elissa permission to quote him in her review: http://bodybuilding.ultimatefatburne…rbolin-19.html.

Given Biotest’s track record, Anaconda will be just another POS supplement from a POS supplement company.

Lyn on
August 23rd, 2009 11:11 pm

Wow, that was my first venture into the t-nation forums. Did you know that research scientists are skinny and therefore cannot be trusted?

Chad Watebury is cool. Not sure why he get’s so much hate. He’s one of my favorite fitness guys. I wouldn’t lump him in with the bad apples over at T-Nation. His “Huge in a Hurry” book is solid. He doesn’t promote a ton of supplements in the book (He recommends GLA, fish oil, and whey + raisins PWO). I like this workout philosophy. Simple, and effective. I’ve gotten great results using his programming. He’s on of the few guys on that site who’s articles I look forward to. The others being Tony Gentilcore, Johnny Bowden, Berardi, Mike Roussell, Dr. Clay Hyght and Mike Mahler. A few others are pretty good.

And lyn, applying science and lab reports to bodybuilding is pretty damn silly. There are so many variables in any one human beings body that will throw off any scientific report.

Hell Science once said testosterone would not put on any muscle on people ! Meanwhile bodybuilders were getting huge !

So less noses in the book, more time in the gym would work WAY better !

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 1:15 pm

Ian, that’s probably why a guy like Charles Poliquin spend 8 hours a week on PubMed to review the latest scientific finding. Probably also the reason why he makes trips all around the world to meet with scientist knowledgeable in a specigic topic and ask their opinion to create his protocol. Probably because applying science to BB and training is silly. Probably eh?

Science is not everything but it’s way better to base our believes on science than on guys like you.

Never forget that the biggest names in this industry relies A LOT on science.

John Blackthorne on
August 24th, 2009 1:17 pm

Hey Ian,

Whats with this pervasive “argument” that people on this “side” of the debate don’t train? I went to the gym and trained this morning.

Chris thats why a guy like Charles Poliquin has kept logs of EVERY SINGLE person he has ever trained.

Turning bodybuilding into science fest is idiotic at best.

And if someone thinks Chocolate Milk is the best p/w drink to have then clearly that man needs to workout harder in the gym ! As i assure you Chocolate milk will do NOWHERE near as good as a properly made or homemade workout drink.

I know you must have some kind of vendetta against T-Nation but Chocolate MILK ?

And according to Poliquin Milk is THE biggest allergen in the western world …. science just dumped all over Aragon’s theory !

Dan it’s main ingredient is Casien Hydrosolate, other companies like Dantes one have let out their own version. It’s currently the fastest absorbed protein there is……… unless you have access to this mystical Chocolate Milk

(rofl)

Rob on
August 24th, 2009 2:13 pm

“Ian, that’s probably why a guy like Charles Poliquin spend 8 hours a week on PubMed to review the latest scientific finding. Probably also the reason why he makes trips all around the world to meet with scientist knowledgeable in a specific topic and ask their opinion to create his protocol. Probably because applying science to BB and training is silly. Probably eh?

Science is not everything but it’s way better to base our believes on science than on guys like you.

Never forget that the biggest names in this industry relies A LOT on science.”

Charles Poliquin certainly seems to have an interest in science and experience, but then again, Alan has knocked a whey suggested on the website for Poliquin’s Chicago training center, a comment about fructose on that same website from a doctor who Charles seems to be keen on quoting, and Alan has also said elsewhere that just because a guy like Poliquin was recommending mega doses of BCAA’s around training does not mean it is providing added benefit.

The man certainly seems keen on always learning and he obviously gets results, but it’s hard to know what to make when some of that material has been knocked as having no basis in research and yet whatever he is doing seems to get the job done…………….Most guys would take real-world results over science any day of the week, but then again that doesn’t mean that the science is wrong, it just means that “X” seems to work for them.

Along these lines it would be interesting to see what Alan has to say about Poliquin’s BioSignature…………….some call it VooDoo, but I suspect there must be more to it than that, and he even claimed that it would eventually be studied so that he could possibly get insurance companies to approve the use of it.

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 2:18 pm

Chris thats why a guy like Charles Poliquin has kept logs of EVERY SINGLE person he has ever trained.
______________________________________
What does that have to do with the fact that he base a lot of his action on science? Really, I don’t see the point.

And if someone thinks Chocolate Milk is the best p/w drink to have then clearly that man needs to workout harder in the gym ! As i assure you Chocolate milk will do NOWHERE near as good as a properly made or homemade workout drink
______________________________________
Please could you tell us why it is so bad? You can assure this to myself, you? And who are you, by the way, so that you can assure things to people? I’m hoping you have some serious scientifict and on-ground background experience to be sure that you can assure such a claim to myself.

And according to Poliquin Milk is THE biggest allergen in the western world …. science just dumped all over Aragon’s theory !

______________________________________
As much respect as I hold for Poliquin, he is not right on everything he says. He’s wayyyy too extremist in his view. Milk is not that much of an issue for many ppl.

And that’s pretty funny how now science can be considered helpful since it goes against Alan… ”science just dumped all over Aragon’s theory !”

Please, make us a favor, write a rebutal to the surge versus chocolat milk article and tell us why Surge (or any ”properly made or homemade workout drink”) would be so much superior?

And as Lyle pointed out not too long ago, having Hydrosolate Casein is just plain stupid. We want casein because it slowly digest – why would we make it faster digesting????

Didn’t you just said that ”It’s currently the fastest absorbed protein there is”
Brillant logic.

Chris ask any bodybuilder – powerlifter – athlete – anyone with a CLUE will Chocolate milk suffice, if you find me one reputable person to agree with it, i would be AMAZED.

I would hate to think what Poliquin would say if you asked him !

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 2:26 pm

Rob, I agree with you that I’m always tears inbetween what he says and the resulst he gets. Obviously he does things that works. But does that means that everything he does is right?

Not too long ago he was telling people to take 40 gram of glutamine post-workout. He don’t do it anymore since we have studies showing us that it don’t do crap.

I think he tries a lot of different protocol and keep some of em and throw away the others. But some ppl are fast at thinking that because he does it it must work. I’m not too sure.

And there’s always the placebo effect. You are being trained by Charles Poliquin and he is giving you over 20 differents pills to take daily. Also he is training top-elite athlete. It’s harder to not get result when you work with advanced athlete than with lay person.

And not too long ago I was attending a seminar from him, and he was discrediting some people because they had no scientific background.

He has more than a little interest in science, that’s for sure.

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 2:31 pm

Ian, acutally in a matter of a few day i can get the answer from Charles Poliquin. My friend is workin with him at his Road Island center and I can ask him any question and i’ll get the answer.

But I can right now tell you that while attending is PICP 1, he gave us this post-workout shake that would work just fine ”Iso Xtrem prots, grape juice and corn flake”

Of course he has an interest in science, but he tempers it with real world application !

If you told him you can only gain X amt a year, i am quite sure he would blow your ears off on how no one jack crap about human limitations.

But you lot seem quite content, with setting limits and thinking that Chocolate Milk is the best post workout drink ! I doubt any of you have TRIED many types of protein, instead choosing to follow blindly 1 mans opinion.

Yea, it’s great that we wank about the small stuff. Frankly, due to rates of digestion, it doesn’t matter too much what you eat post workout as long as it’s protein rich, and contains kcals. That’s it. So, in that case I would rather save my money, consume a protein shake and a bowl of white rice instead of blowing my dough on some hyped up Anaconda(tm) post workout drink.

Anaconda better have a significant amount of oral anabolics per scoop to live up to it’s claims.

Theory is worthless without application. I’m not going to take business advice from someone who can’t show his shareholders a profit, Harvard MBA or not.

Most of you lot it seems have read a lot of books. You’ve spent far more time than any person should recreationally browsing PubMed, but you haven’t applied an ounce of that knowledge, then you only know what should work, not what does. No one here is assaulting the validity of science, but rather simply expecting some results to be shown from all of this supposedly superior knowledge.

It’s chocolate milk NOT any whey protein or something like that ! Jeez man get with the program will you !

Rob on
August 24th, 2009 2:39 pm

I wish placebo effect would work when and with what I want it to……………..seems like it only kicks in on the shit that doesn’t matter as much, or maybe I just have bad luck, hah, hah………………..this was me thinking out loud and not knocking the placebo effect, as I realize it can in fact be a potent influence.

The thing I find annoying is the tendency these days for constant refinement of each and every thing over time based upon new findings……………………….I certainly don’t promote having your head in the sand, but part of me longs for the world pre-internet where you weren’t constantly bombarded with info overload (some world-class and much more utter crap distracting from the heart of the matter).

Even someone trying to cut through the crap and streamline things can end up with ADD. It seems like finding something that works and sticking to it, with perhaps a periodic tweak here and there, is no longer good enough. And half the time you’re left feeling like you need to be Stephen Bleeping Hawking to make heads or tails of it all. For anyone who doesn’t possess the keenest of minds, you inevitably have to place some measure of faith in what someone “in the know” says, but when their trustworthiness is cast in doubt or the fact that we’re all still very fallible human beings come into play, it leaves you with one gigantic headache.

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 2:41 pm

And what can you applicate when you have no theory? You’re right, but stop thinkin that because we read books and PubMed that we don’t train and don’t get result. I’m sure most of us here are workin with real-life client daylong. We’re applying our theory on many peoples. And i’m sure we are all getting good result.

John Blackthorne on
August 24th, 2009 2:42 pm

Dear Chris B,

You forget that you are supposed to inject the 40g of glutamine to get the stated results. If you go through the oral route then too much of it is absorbed in the gut.

Cheers,

John Blackthorne

John Blackthorne on
August 24th, 2009 2:44 pm

Re: Charles Poliquin and BioSignature:

He’s claiming that the cortisol site is somewhere on the back. Subscapular or something. The best indicator for a cortisol imbalance is visceral fat afaik.

And of course enjoy your WONDERFULL results with Chocolate milk, just sent a PM to Dante all i got back was a “wtf” but hey us big guys know NOTHING !

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 2:57 pm

John – Poliquin’s cortisol site is right next to the umbelic. I don’t know where you heard that misinformation.

Ian – Believing someone based on his physique is really dumb. Some of the best coach in the world looks like crap. While it’s true that I would not ask a 300+ fat person to help me loose weight, never would I judge competence of someone on his physique.

Maybe they just don’t care that much about their physique? It’s not an obsession for everyone.

Having a good physique only helps some guy with not much credibility gain some in front of guy like you, who truely believe this is the only manifestation of their competence.

So if a 150lb person came up and said Chocolate Milk is the answer to your post workout dilemma you would cease drinking a Whey Version + Carbs and switch ???

Come of f*ck off. E very trainer worth his salt KNOWS you MUST look the part, and don’t give me the “don’t care about their physique” WTF they are telling others how to manage theirs but cannot manage their OWN ????

I’m sorry but really does that make sense in your head ???

Good god man what’s wrong with you

Rob on
August 24th, 2009 3:05 pm

The looks part is deceiving on multiple levels…………………..Mike Boyle looks like a photo negative of an Ethiopian refugee, but I’d refer any athlete his way. On the flip side, I wouldn’t want anyone with bodybuilding aspirations working with him, and he’d likely say the same thing himself. But then again knowing how to train yourself for results is no guarantee of results in a client…………………..but it isn’t exactly chopped liver, either.

Ideally you’d find someone who blends knowledge and under the bar experience as much as possible. That said, plenty of guys were making gains at the turn of last century long before anyone knew better because of science or thought to question whether advice had value or not based upon how the source looked.

Chris B on
August 24th, 2009 3:08 pm

Well most of ppl that come to see a trainer looks for health – not to get muscular. Being really buffed is only good to attract young skinny teens.

When you have produced good result with athlete, they will come you. You don’t need to be muscular or anything.

And you just don’t seem to realise that what really matter, as JC pointed out, is getting plenty of calories and proteins para-workout. What ever the source is does not matter. What’s so hard in understading this? There is no magical sugar or protein. It’s all come down to be the same. Don’t you get that? Maybe it will do minor change here and there but nothing that you will even come close to notice. So why spending so much money on supplements? You’re being manipulated by ppl telling you that their protein and their sugar are better – and you truely believe this? LOL, that’s something to laugh about.

AB on
August 24th, 2009 3:11 pm

Haha, I like dan’s hypothesis. In the background of this entire marketing crap, I have been wondering what the product and protocol is going to be like, in order to give the appearance of its efficacy once it is “unleashed.”

So far conjecture has been:
1. Oral gear with a masking agent
2. Two parts fast-acting protein, one part super-fast acting carbs, two parts MTOR activating proprietary blend and six parts expectation bias.

I’m just going to throw out there that Arnold had, like, an entire chicken and a pitcher of beer post-workout.

Letrus on
August 24th, 2009 4:35 pm

And I’ll throw out that by the ‘information quality can be judged by the physique of the giver’ line of thought – Louie Simmons must be a terrible coach, despite the enviable success of his athletes, because of his strong resemblance to a potbellied Tolkein dwarf.

jimsmith9999 on
August 24th, 2009 4:36 pm

The most obvious fallacy in the whole I,Bodybuilder program

The program claims:

“Christian gained 27 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks”

Christian himself said somewhere on there forums that it was 27lbs of bodyweight, some of that being fat.

If leucine was absent in high-quality protein, you’d have a fine case for adding it to your diet. But, research from Donald Layman (arguably the foremost expert on leucine & muscle anabolism) indicates that muscle protein synthesis is stimulated maximally with an oral leucine dose of 0.045-0.06g/kg (3-4g) per meal. This amount is easy to achieve from typical food sources, such as 6oz lean meat, fish, & poultry, or 1.5-2 scoops of whey. If for some reaon you were on a low-protein diet, I can see the benefit of supplementing the diet with leucine (or the rest of the EAAs for that matter). Otherwise, it’s a waste. To sum things up, think in terms of hitting your total protein target for the day, and you’re good. When you consider just how slow the process of muscle growth actually is (refer back to the article above), then you can see how trying to force it with extra leucine on top of a preexistent abundance in a high-protein diet is simply another way to throw money away. I’m not saying that it would be detrimental, I’m just saying that under the typical diet conditions (abundant high-quality protein), it’s not going to benefit you.

Jeff,

That sounds good to me. As long as you can digest it without any issues, go for it.

You sound like a disgruntled teen. Let us help you; it seems like you’re lost. Seriously though, learning is a good thing, you should give it a try now & then.

Cheers guys, I gotta make a road trip.

Matt P on
August 24th, 2009 5:50 pm

Ian:

Usain Bolt eats chicken mcnuggets before his races.

Therefore, you’re a retard.

John Calla on
August 24th, 2009 6:03 pm

Ian,

Why is it so important to drink a fast-absorbing protein post-workout when one’s body is still digesting the pre-workout meal?

Dan on
August 24th, 2009 7:18 pm

Ian wrote:

“So if a 150lb person came up and said Chocolate Milk is the answer to your post workout dilemma you would cease drinking a Whey Version + Carbs and switch ???”

Isn’t chocolate milk just WHEY+CASEIN+CARBS?

And sorry, t-nation is the home of “bro-science” where knowledge means nothing, and the size of your arms determines how much you know.

If school has taught me one thing, it is to be skeptical about marketing claims. I actually recently went on a bulk and STOPPED taking whey protein or other supplements. I am taking creatine when I remember, but its more of a psychological thing for me. And Ive gained more muscle, and more weight doing this then all the different supplements ive taken. The truth is supplements are for the most part pretty useless, unless they are used to account for some deficiency in the diet. (Ie: a vegetarian supplementing protein, or supplementing fish oil) Money is much better spent on quality food, than on some miracle supplements that end up being nothing special. Most people will agree that NO xplode is pure crap, but there are just as many if not more people stating that its the shit. There is no way of telling whats what, without knowledgeable people like Alan and Lyle telling us whats crap. Id much rather take the “Lab knowledge” of one of these guys over the “Bro-science” of some dude on t-nation that got his credentials by taking Superpumps2000 and benching 350.

One thing I find funny is the outrageos gains claimed.

“Kevin gained 24 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks, while losing 14 pounds of fat and adding 50 pounds to his bench press.”

But then they basically say THESE RESULTS AREN’T TYPICAL:

“Anyway, like I said, that average guy should expect to gain about 20 pounds of muscle within the first 12 to 15 weeks of using our methods.

So basically, they are claiming amazing gains, but if you dont get these gains, you either aren’t doing it right, or dont have the genetics of CT and the others and thus your gains were less.

If they were marketing it toward the average t-nation reader, why didn’t they use 20 average t-nation readers as a 15 week trial run. Then, if they were making these claims and something like 16/20 of the participants gained 20lbs while losing or maintaining fat, then I could start to believe them.

Its like when you see a pro bb’er or fitness model on an informercial for some supplement or piece of workout equipement. And theyve looked the way they have for the past 5 years. But if CT is big, and CT says this is the program, then everyone must do it. That is the logic over at t-nation.

***As a side note, im hoping Lyle, Alan or possibly Berardi will come out with their own version of the I, Bodybuilder program that simply revolves around the THEORY of using nutrient timing for body composition.

Lyle, Alan, Martin Berkhan of IF fame, or Borge (Blade on the forums) will be releasing just such a program.

Dan on
August 24th, 2009 7:23 pm

Ryan,

Does the type of beer matter for pre vs. post workout? Or do you recommend avoiding beer Pre- all together?

I was thinking maybe something like a heferwiezen pre- to avoid protein breakdown, and then guiness pwo to elicit anabolism

Dan on
August 24th, 2009 7:25 pm

@ Ryan,

I’ll be looking forward to that, and will be saving the money I wasn’t gonna spend on Anaconda for it.

John Blackthorne on
August 24th, 2009 8:40 pm

Dear T-NATION/T-MUSCLE apologists who may have stumbled onto this article,

Quoting directly from TC’s first (and only) post in that thread: “Anyhow, the naysayer is a guy whose articles I rejected, so I think he’s got a bug up his ass towards me and Biotest. (Think of the Glenn Close character in Fatal Attraction and you’ve got him pegged.)”

I am speaking for myself and myself alone. I do not pretend to speak for Alan or the others on the sciency and truthiness “side” of the debate:

1. The unqualified claims made by the I, Bodybuilder video and ad copy are literally incredible to people who are knowedgeable about physiology and have real world experience training real world people.

2. Alan Aragon refuted Bill Roberts’s claims in the Surge v Chocolate Milk thread, and then the T-Nation moderators decided that it was in their best interest to 1) censor Alan’s posts, and then 2) delete the thread altogether.

3. Lyle agreed to post Alan’s article refuting the claims made by the video and the advertising copy of the I, Bodybuilder program.

4. Your Shephard, TC Luoma, thought it would be a good idea to create a thread on T-Nation/T-Muscle in which he lies about rejecting Alan’s articles, compares him to Glenn Close’s character in Fatal Attraction, and then attempts to justify the censorship of the earlier thread between Alan and Bill.

5. From the beginning of this thread on, the T-Nation/T-Muscle moderators have edited parts of many posts defending Alan or Alan’s article, and, on top of that, blocked many more posts from appearing in the thread in the first place. The mods have also blocked any attempt to link to outside websites, such as this one, that are critical of the claims made by I, BB.

6. Furthermore, the mods blocked any attempt by Alan or others to post Alan’s response to the things being said about him and his article in the thread.

7. So TC and the T-Nation/T-Muscle moderators have been blocking the author of an article from defending himself or his article, and they have blocked or edited out almost all attempts to discuss the censorship issue.

8. At this point in time, I personally do not care about the claims made by the I, Bodybuilder program, and I am more concerned about the censorship and other efforts to silence dissent.

9. By editing “our” posts and blocking others, they are able to make it appear that there are two sides engaging in a vigorous debate but that your side is winning. They have changed the substance of our posts and skewed whats displayed in the thread to make it look like we fought a fair fight, but lost.

10. I wouldn’t have posted on T-Nation/T-Muscle but for that thread CREATED by TC Luoma in, yet another, attempt at damage control. I would not have continued to post in that thread if I was able to speak my piece and feel like I was being heard. Whether or not anyone agreed with me or gave a shit is another matter, but I in the very least wanted the chance to present my argument as I convceived it and not as it suited the purposes of the T-Nation/T-Muscle moderators.

I’ll leave you with another quote from the poet Thomas Gray:
“Where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise.”

The Intro to TC’S post on the thread started off by saying the bad mouth process was going to cost them money. and that was the reason for the censorship. If I built a Ferrari that could fly, I would scream it to the world and naysayers would be welcome to challenge cos I can then thumb my nose at them and say”see, I told you so!”

My knowledge on training processes and diet are largely garnered from research on sites such as this and admittedly, t-nation. My goals are different from a lot of guys who wanna get “swole”(I’m an accontant , for pity’s sake!..lol) but through incidental info and pretty good genetics, I’m 220 lbs ,5’8 and 11% bf now, with pretty good nutrition, so I can hardly be called a nerdy non training sort. I think this arguement has it’s 2 set camps and never the twain shall meet. I guess the proof will have to be in the pudding. Let’s see if they can deliver on their promises. I don’t think I will be purchasing the product myself ( never been one for gimmicks..I eat, I train hard) but it will be interesting times when it’s released. I have thoroughly enjoyed the back and forth on this forum (even the silly abusive ones..). I am firmly in the sceptic camp but in the same breath, I look forward to being proved wrong by Biotest.

ps @ Lyle, the wife says thanks for RFL.

turbozed on
August 25th, 2009 3:28 am

The real story here isn’t the outrageous claims made by Biotest. A supplement company making unfounded and unbelievable claims is not news-it’s par for the course. The real story is the blatant censorship and manipulation occurring at T-Nation, a supposedly open forum.

When you combine the appearance of transparency, an environment that promotes group unity over rational discourse, unchecked authority to delete and modify the discussion for ill purposes, and a financial incentive to do so, you create something that is outright sinister.

It’s amazing to see how anybody can possibly defend a site that regularly censors and manipulates the discussions, especially when that ‘forum’ is openly linked to a product line. The beauty of forums is that it’s an open marketplace of ideas and arguments, and that the good, well-founded ones tend to win out. When this process is manipulated and used to brainwash and hide the ball from the users for personal gain, reasonable people should be disgusted by it.

Central control over information, cult-like solidarity, and an over-the-top leader? T-Nation is North Korea in microcosm.

Kyle McDougal on
August 25th, 2009 3:28 am

Ah Bill Roberts,

Remember the days when you disliked t-nation?

Remember the days they backed the money truck up under your nose, and you became a hypocritical tard, something which has stuck till this very day. Now you are buried deep in the same stupidity you once hated on…

Must feel good to be such a fundamental douchebag.

Testosterone.net is not dedicated to providing steroid information.
It is dedicated to hawking its own line of supplements. (Just in
case you had not noticed the patently-obvious.)

— Bill

Devon T on
August 25th, 2009 5:51 am

Ian,

You sound like every other frustrated T-muscle bodybuilding fan who just can’t comprehend science. So, you latch on to whatever your favorite T-gurus tell you and, you don’t go outside of what you think you already know. And, you continue to go nowhere fast.

The T-logic you use (better physique equals better knowledge) would mean that the advice of some of the best coaches is invalid. That doesn’t make much sense does it? Do you really need to see these men naked to trust them? Do you think that Alwyn Cosgrove’s advice is invalid? What about Dan John’s advice? You won’t see those guys hitting poses on a stage any time soon, but you’d be a fool to write off their advice based on their looks.

Listen to guys like Alan and Lyle, and I assure you that you will look back on your days of ignorance and thank me. I was in your same boat not too long ago. But, not nearly as bad. There’s still hope, even for guys as dull as yourself.

“Yep even Casey Butt has now come on and said this “Ceiling” has been taken out of context.”

Taken out of context in that most often people carrying much too much body fat for an accurate comparison make claims of being above the equations “predictions”. The equations were fit to lifters predominantly in the 4% to 12% range, so that is where they are most accurate. Many people can exceed the predictions given in the online article and calculator as that is a simplified version that does not take body fat into account (though the equations in the e-book do). However, I have yet to verify anyone exceeding the predictions (particularly the more accurate ones of the e-book) in the lean condition which they specify.

The other “out of context” perspective I see being applied to the equations is that of body weight. Most people not only fail to underestimate their own body fat levels, but also the impact of wide waists and hips. Elite bodybuilders tend to have small waists and hips, and this shows to an extent in the lean body mass prediction equation. Heavily muscled people with large hip structures may indeed exceed the lean body mass predictions, but I have yet to verify any drug-tested person exceeding all the measurements predictions (though there are people extremely gifted in isolated body parts). This extra lean body mass due to wide waists and hips is accounted for in the e-book and also warned of in the online article, yet some people tend to overlook it – perhaps because they want to. In any case, given that most people will never truly reach the level of development described by the equations, where talking on the order of a few pounds and fractions of an inch here – nothing more.

The equations given in the online article assume a bone structure proportional to height and typical. It does not fit well to people with overly large or small bone structures – the e-book does that. In addition, the measurement prediction equations in the online article are intended for a lean condition of 8-10% body fat – the e-book takes body fat level into acount most accurately over the 4% to 12% range. All of this is covered in the online article but some people, in their zeal to dispute what they see as a challange and without even wanting to comprehend what has been presented, choose to ignore it.

Oh come on Casey, you can’t disappoint that kid that was like 25% and thinks he’s 18%

How will he maximize his Internet muscles????

Adam on
August 25th, 2009 7:14 pm

Nate Green is now an expert in exercise science? Doesn’t anyone remember back when he first posted his undeveloped physique on T-Nation? Practically everyone there made fun of him! Now after a few years and a few pounds of muscle, he’s allowed to write articles that are just regurgitated factoids from old TN articles. And the people on there, the ones who made fun of him, are even buying his book! But wait a second, operating under the logic that he’s just spewing out stuff that everyone on there already read, shouldn’t they not need his book?

Well they think they do, because in spite of all of the cutting edge information and expensive miracle supplements, their physiques still suck. And yet those people are usually the first to defend T-Nation! They’ll talk about how they just weren’t dedicated enough to make the ‘protocols’ work, but someone who did would have very impressive physical development. So what then, is the point of their even buying Biotest supplements to begin with? What a marketing scheme, if even the people who have proven the supplement doesn’t work still defend your company so fervently.

Biotest has a right to a profit and all that, but what liars. The old articles would make fun of pro bodybuilders endorsing bunk products that were designed to rob readers. Biotest have higher standards. They use their authors do that.

They used to post articles bashing how magazines only had photos of heavily roided bodybuilders and what they do to people’s perception of what was possible with their own physical achievement. Now you’ll notice after some number of redesigns, the site is packed (juiced) to the gills of the same bodybuilders. I can’t really call this part hypocrisy, because they used to post a lot about steroids. It’s just that they realized that steroid users know better than to buy most Biotest supps. Because of this, they must market to the people who want steroid physiques but can be tricked into thinking Anaconda can provide that.

Readers will say that T-Nation is still hardcore. I mean, unlike Muscle and Fiction, TN doesn’t contain any of the lies and pseudoscientific articles pandering useless supplements. Oh wait… Well, you don’t see any soft edged pointless articles about stuff everybody but the beginnigest beginner knows. Oh wait… Well you know what, I know it’s still hardcore, because TC still posts articles about his penis every Friday! And only sometimes do they contain shameless plugs for Biotest product.

What a reward to the loyal readers who have long championed the free and informative database of articles written by experts like Nate Green.

Anyway thank you for the article

Steve on
August 26th, 2009 2:56 pm

Isn’t Shugart the guy who left his wife and child, whom had a serious medical condition, for some woman he met at the first Test Fest?

And you are all surprised that someone with that level of amorality would stoop to lie about a supplement/training program?

This is a guy who LEFT his sick child and worried wife when they needed him around.

“As for T-Nation, they have some some good moments (I tend to like Alwyn Cosgrove’s stuff), but the majority of their articles are not worth reading.”

Nothing specifically against Cosgrove, but it was Chad Waterbury whose writings I meant to say I liked.

Dan on
August 27th, 2009 1:37 pm

Is it just me, or is t-nation now moderating all posts in their forums. This is what is pissing me off the most out of everything.

When the “I, bodybuilder” came out, and all the gropies got all giddy, I posted my thoughts. I said that it just looked like CT’s normal training methods, with a new supplement to back them. Of course my post didn’t go through.

I got a message from a mod that said:

“With all due respect, you’re completely clueless about training if you really think this program is “same old training.”

I’ve been bodybuilding for a long time and have never done or seen training like CT has just developed. What’s more important, however, is that I’ve never seen experienced lifters gain so quickly following any other type of training. ”

Then someone will ask a question, on another forum and i’ll try to answer it and leave a link to an article im citing on another site, and i’ll get this message:

“We edited your post because we spend an awful lot of money maintaining this site – on the order of a couple of million dollars a year – and we’d prefer that customers not use this forum to advertise non-T-Nation sites. Granted, your sentiments may be sincere, but there are just too many “trolls” from other companies that spend a good amount of time visiting other websites to plant unpaid-for “advertisements” and to link to their sites.

Thanks for understanding! ”

And then in the recent thread about the claims they made with the “AMAZING NEW SUPPLEMENT” anything that was said against t-nation seemed to not go through.

Actually, not only am I impressed by Thibaudeau’s pre-Anaconda claim of being 5’9″ tall and 215 lbs @ 7% bf, which is about the same height, weight and condition that Mike Mentzer competed at in the late 1970s (but with drugs), but now, since he’s added 27 pounds more muscle on top of that, his pressing deserves some kudos too.

According to Biotest, Thibaudeau can do 5 reps of seated overhead presses with a few seconds rest between reps. Not bad when you consider that Paul Anderson, weighing 304 lbs, won the Olympic Gold medal in 1956 with just a 369-pound overhead press. Of course, there will be slight differences between the seated and standing version, but Thibaudeau could have repped Anderson’s weight. Also Doug Hepburn, weighing 299 lbs, set the world record in 1954 when he pressed 380 pounds. Thibaudeau probably could have gotten a few reps with that too.

Eventually Anderson brought the press record up to 409 pounds and steroids took over from there. Given Thibaudeau can do 375 x 5 with rest-pauses, he might be good for a 409 single as well – not bad considering he’s well over 100 pounds lighter than Anderson when he set that record.

Of course, smaller pre-drug era lifters, like 2-time Olympic Gold medalist and 27-time World Record holder Tommy Kono, only handled baby weights like Kono’s career-best 349.4 pounds when he broke the middle heavyweight world record, weighing 198 pounds. Thibaudeau would probably use that on a medium day, or for high-rep sets, or maybe if he didn’t get much sleep the night before or something.

Come to think of it, Thibaudeau’s Canadian, and the winning Clean & Jerk in the 207-231 lb weight class at the 2009 Canadian Senior Weightlifting Championships was only 355 pounds. Thibaudeau can press more than that on a light day. Now that he’s one of the strongest drug-free men in history at his bodyweight, he should certainly consider reviving his Olympic Weightlifting career and winning all those Canadian titles that he didn’t win back when he was actually competing.

Was there always bad blood between this website and Tnation/tmuscle? I enjoy reading articles from both sites and purchase products from both sites – supplements from Tmuscle and books from this site. I only have been posting at Tmuscle this past year but was a lurker for a few years. I was not aware of why there is such animosity between the two.

In regards to Thibaudeau, I believe he was bigger in the past and just regained his previous size and a little more. Just like Kevin Levrone and muscle memory, I believe Thibaudeau was over 230lbs multiple times in the past, so it is not so far fetched that he could re-gain that size plus a little more. So when he went from 215lbs to 242lbs, it actually was in terms of NEW size, 230lbs to 242lbs. (That is still very impressive as I have personally gained nothing in the past few years – stagnated and injury prone.)

P.S. I also purchased books from Casey Butts, Jamie Hale and Alan Aragon and found them very informative and helpful, so I am not a Tmuscle homer or bro or whatever the term is.

hawaiiliftermike: I don’t think its “bad blood” as much as its the authors featured here just getting fed up with the censorship coupled with dissemination of false material on T-nations end. Many people have already stated that they refer to T-nation for information, so nobody’s trying to get anyone to swear them off permanently.

I think it has something to do with the questionable practice of getting credible guys to lure in newbies and maybe even some experienced guys, and then get the credible guys selling out and lying their asses off to sell some magical t-booster or fat burner or powder that’s a million times better than anything else out there. Especially since they started as a movement against how supplement driven muscle mags were, things like the V-diet where they’re blatantly just trying to sell you a month’s diet consisting only of biotest supps is a bit ridiculous, because they try and claim things like “its the proprietary blend of biotest supps that helps you lose all this weight”. Uhh, no. It’s the fact that you’re getting a good amount of protein while having nothing but shakes and fish oil for a damn month. Like Dan pointed out, they’ll likely try something like this for I, BB, and then give all the credit to anaconda when people see results, rather than chalking it up to something else thats painfully obvious to anyone reasonable.

Most people who visit this site [or any other sites for that matter] tend to be the kind of people smart enough not to buy into that crap, but at the same time, T-nation can seriously hose some of the guys that treat that website like the Commandments of lifting and supplementation. While some forums can try to peddle stuff, few go as far as to censor and trick you by paying off “experts”. That’s where the animosity lies.

“I believe Thibaudeau was over 230lbs multiple times in the past, so it is not so far fetched that he could re-gain that size plus a little more. So when he went from 215lbs to 242lbs, it actually was in terms of NEW size, 230lbs to 242lbs.”

If Thibaudeau, with his height and structure, ever really weighed anything close to a muscular 230 pounds, without hefty drug use, I’ll gnaw my own arm off and feed it to my neighbour’s dog.

hawaiilifterMike on
August 28th, 2009 4:57 pm

Thanks for your reply Yash. I kind of now understand what you are talking about.

Yeah it does suck that they moderate a little heavily. As an example, I linked trueprotein because I bought waxy maize from them and also Jeff Rodriguez’s blog website and both got deleted/edited out.

Richard on
August 29th, 2009 10:54 pm

Very well written article, I’m confused to whether this Thibaudeau character is 242lbs of muscle or fat, will he be competing in the Olympia?

“Under the best possible circumstances (perfect diet, training, supplementation, and recovery strategies) the average male body can manufacture between 0.25 and 0.5 pounds of dry muscle tissue per week. That is the amount your natural body chemistry will allow you to build. So we’re talking about around one or two pounds per month. It may not sound like much, but that can add up to twelve to twenty pounds over one year of training.”

Chris B on
August 30th, 2009 10:39 am

Cool post Mike.

I’m wondering what happened to human physiology so that within 3 years he found a way of getting 10x faster result then what he himself said was possible.

I’m all good with someone who evolve and change his mind, it’s an important part of the whole learning process. But that’s just a little too extreme as a turn over.

Just wanted to take a brief moment to thank Alan for taking valuable time out of his day to do a service to the bodybuilding community as a whole in exposing the ridiculous crap that has been spewing from T-Nation since I can remember. Second to none these deceivers have been duping the mass young and uneducated into believing that their supplements were somehow superior to everybody else’s and that by paying twice as much you would get twice the results. I havent really been involved much in the internet bodybuilding society since I resigned as a moderator from a well known forum a few years ago but you now have a new personal fan, and I commend you for speaking out against the non-sense that is TNation.

Thanks for this article! I occasionally run across useful stuff over at the t-nation site, but I’ve always been suspicious of their supplement promotion.

Dan on
September 2nd, 2009 2:07 pm

Ive really just about lost all respect for t-nation. When I saw ‘I, bodybuilder” announced, i have to admit, I got excited. Not because I believed the claims, or that I was hoping Ananconda was going to be a magic bullet. I generally disregard supplements, because im smart enough to know that most of them are basically a donation to the supplement company.

But I was excited to see a new mass gain program from CT. Then after watching the video and thinking for a bit, I figured that this program really wouldn’t be anything new. I know t-nation all to well, and I know they didn’t come up with anything new. And then I started to here that they were filming all the workouts. Which this obviously means they are going to be selling the program. Im not sure how much it will be, but I myself will not be willing to shell out any more than $5 for a program that claims “black-ops bodybuilding”.

So I knew I wasn’t going to spend my money on t-nations marketing, but I wanted to try something new for mass. Ive got another 10lbs to gain, and am feeling ready for a tough program. I decided that there is no reason why I cant come up with just as good of a program on my own. (I mean, I know CT didn’t go to some oracle and find these new techniques) Instead he took what he already knew. And most of his techniques are in his old articles. So today I started browsing some of CT’s past articles, and I found this in the first couple.

So CT claims that I,bodybuilder will revolve around mechanical drop-sets, and that this article is a little intro.

“The whole 12-week program will include close to 40 of such exercise complexes. But in the meantime, here’s a cool arm program that’ll introduce you to the fine torture that is mechanical drop setting.”

But then in the discussion for that thread, someone posted a link to one of CT’s new programs which came out in march.

Now I dont know if this is affiliated with t-nation or not, but IMO this is just bad business etiquette. You hype up a “top secret program”, and then release key information about that program, that happens to co-incide with another product that you are releasing.

I just find all of this really funny, and t-nation’s credibility goes down more and more each day. The only thing I can see that will redeem CT in my mind is that these were actually two completely separate projects. That is, two comlpetely separate “top secret” projects, and that he wasn’t trying to push another product while waiting for I,bodybuilder to come out.

Well, enough of a rant. I’ll be making my own program to follow for 9-15 weeks, called I, powerlifter. Its going to be aimed at gaining muscle AS FAST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. And the key to the effectiveness of my program is going to be the supplements i’ll be taking. Without them, the program wont work. These supplements will be creatine, chocolate milk AND a banana.

Tom on
September 3rd, 2009 3:03 pm

You guys have to stop knocking the I, bodybuilder program….I tried the workout last night and I have already gained 5 lbs! ; )

If you don’t think that results like this are typical, then you aren’t taking enough Biotest supplements. Buy, buy, buy….ask questions and use science later.

Alan, I have been drinking chocolate milk or having a bowl of cereal with milk after working out and I love it. I feel bad not spending tons of money on supplements though, so I am going to put a Biotest label on the chocolate milk and pay my wife $40 for it every two weeks. Do you think that will do the trick?

Great article!

Fahim on
September 9th, 2009 6:42 pm

Alan thanks for the great article……sad to say I probably would have purchased I, Bodybuilder had it not been for this article. Nutrition question though, what are your thoughts on using a waxy maize supplement for carbs pre and post workout in addition to my whey protein?

Chad (not Waterbury) on
September 10th, 2009 7:24 pm

Those guys that fall into the “supplement trap”? Right here! When I read the article and saw the preview for I, Bodybuilder, I was absolutely astounded. Admittedly, I didn’t know the achievements of the human body with respect to muscle gains (on or off drugs) until I read this particular article. I wouldn’t have paid for any sort of program, but I can’t say I wouldn’t try a supplement used in the program and expect some sort of improvement over what I’m doing now.

I’m beginning to learn (maybe later than usual, as I’m 24…) that anything involving money will have an element of disinformation. This has been 100% true in the automotive enthusiast segment of my life and now I see it in body building where I have even less experience.

Thank you for providing insight into unscientific claims of supplement and program results and please continue to offer your opinion (everyone who commented on this article, as well) so that people like me can begin to make sense of things.

Actually, considering the new fatty acid supplement is nothing more than extracts from coconut oil, olive oil, soybean oil and evening primrose oil, I’d be really surprised if anyone has the gall to make something of that. I started cooking with coconut oil and olive oil years ago, I’ve taken evening primrose oil on occasion (mostly when my wife had it lying around), and all of us get plenty of linoleic acid. Guess what? Unless you’ve got some severe deficiency (which is unlikely) then none of these will have any significant effect on your performance or development …unless you take enough to jack your calorie intake up. They’re all healthy, in balance, and can support training as the myriad of necessary nutrients can, but nothing more. Perhaps it’s the precise ratio of fatty acids discovered by Biotest’s lab coat wearing biochemists (a.k.a. nobody). 😉

Gaea on
September 15th, 2009 10:52 pm

It’s not the fatty acids, it’s the way they market everything they sell.

You are correct, they don’t manufacture anything. They have no permits that a typical manufacturing facility would have. When I started asking about QA/QC data on their supps, my post was deleted due to “proprietary concerns”.

However, I spoke too soon about them never getting in trouble with the FDA:

That’s a great article to read. I don’t get caught up in the BS about spending hundreds of dollars a month on stuff. I do spend about $100 in a year though on protein, creatine. It’s more age related and motivation that I even buy the stuff and work out when I do-hence I just try to replace what the body had 20 yrs ago per se.

Anyways, here’s my question though, and I haven’t posed this to my doc yet, but has there been any studies on creatine and or L-Arginine suppliments and those that maybe predestined for heart problems?? More specifically arrhythmia and other heart problems associated with arrhythmia that appear to be possible genetic related ?? Thanks for your input…..Jim

KDawg on
September 21st, 2009 3:17 pm

The saddest thing about all of this is that they do have some good products. My girlfriend was undergoing a lot of treatments for a very serious illness and the doctors at her clinic were very specific about what they would and would not let her take. They ran their own tests on Flameout and found it to be very high quality.

That being said, I am just not sure what to say about Biotest any more. I used to post there quite a bit, but I could not take my account getting screwed with (and without any true explanation as to why) and this I, Bodybuilder thing is just galling.

Anyone who tells you they have something that sounds like the greatest product ever but (1) they did not think they would necessarily sell it to the public despite its uber-awesomeness; and (2) would like you to believe they are selling it to you at COST… well… run the other way, my friends and run HARD. No supplement company in existence is doing this as a public service.

Nick on
October 12th, 2009 3:21 pm

wow… this page belongs on the onion …

posters like Ian actually dissapoint me the most here; dude, you clearly know what you are talking about so why are you wasting your time with folks that think they know more than Poliquin… cause you know, it’s not like Poliquin has a proven track record anyway…

All — Thanks for the feedback. I’ve had my hands full with work, so dropping in to check on this has and probably will continue to be sporadic.

Nick — How does it feel to exit the T-muscle forums? I hear they keep the lights off there.

Jim — I’ve read a single case study of creatine supplementation having a possible link to arrhythmia. Single cases have to be interpreted with caution, especially if no causal relation ship was established. L-arginine supplementation, on the other hand, potentially has anti-arrhythmic effects. This too is based on a scant amount of data that really isn’t worthy of drawing firm conclusions.

Shawn — thanks man. I’ve actually met you for about 2 seconds at a book signing for BFL in SoCal several years ago. Met Bill & your mom too — very cool people.

Nick — if you are unable to see how Lyle sheds light on the dim-witted, then I definitely can’t help you at this particular juncture.

Nick on
November 4th, 2009 7:15 pm

actually, I see a lot of dim-witted postings on this page, and yep, they claim to have seen some sort of light…. albeit misguided

call out the marketing tactics or hype, you’re entitled to full-blown scepticism if you want, it’s always respectable when someone’s able to formulate their own thoughts and opiniions (I/m not suggesting there’s much of that going on on this page)… but review something that isn’t even out yet, and it just makes you look petty and vindictive…and looking for attention… which is what I’m giving you ironically 🙂

I’m off to write a review of the 2012 Toyota Matrix on my blog…

P.S. some of you are bashing the IBB threads, and have clearly not really read much of it all

Hey Alan, just letting you know Anaconda is out, just in case you wanna get some and then say you got wicked gains from chocolate milk

zraw on
November 26th, 2009 2:54 am

■BJ Folsom on November 25th, 2009 11:58 pm
Hey Alan, just letting you know Anaconda is out, just in case you wanna get some and then say you got wicked gains from chocolate milk

LOLL

BigEddie on
November 27th, 2009 10:15 am

“Snake Oil” by Steve Earle

Ladies and gentlemen, attention please
Come in close so everyone can see
I got a tale to tell
A listen don’t cost a dime
And if you believe that we’re gonna get along just fine

Now I’ve been travelin’ all around
I heard trouble’s come to your town
Well I’ve got a little somethin’
Guaranteed to ease your mind
It’s call Snake Oil y’all
It’s been around for a long, long time

Say, your crops’ll burn if it don’t rain soon
Ain’t seen a drop since the tenth of June
Well I can open up the sky
People never fear
If you ain’t impressed yet, just tell me what you wanna hear

Well you lost your farm so you moved to town
You get a job, they shut the factory down
Now you sit around all day long feelin’ sad and blue
You need Snake Oil y’all, tell you what I’m gonna do

I can heal the sick, I can mend the lame
And the blind shall see again, it’s all the same

Well ain’t your President good to you
Knocked ’em dead in Libya, Grenada too
Now he’s taking his show a little further down the line
Well, ‘tween me and him people, you’re gonna get along just fine

Daniel on
November 28th, 2009 10:59 pm

Hi all,

I have been reading quite a bit in T-nation, using it a bit for inspiration, especially the articles with “weird” exercises you probably never did, I found amusing.
Then this appearantly long-awaited (and hyped up) Anaconda comes out, and it of course all sounds good, but in my natural sceptisism, I of course immediately google it to check what comes up, and voila, I end up here 😛

Soe I noticed that most here is totally giving the Anaconda the “snake-oil”-label.
But how about somebody volunteered to give it a honest try? (and of course also sacrificed a substantial amount of money). And it should actually be somebody sceptical about it, so as to avoid any Placebo effect (though STILL following it EXACTLY as written).
In that way you could simply find out by practical experience, instead of just discussing it (or actually agreeing with each other, on what you have already agreed in the first place).

Might be a waste of time? Or perhaps a good example of marketing hype (with actual proof that it is just hype). Perhaps the person could even keep a regular daily log on what is happening, what he is experiencing, and if he might at least be experiencing SOME good gains or not? And of course also the (unlikely) possibility that it actually works.

I might be a sceptic on things, but I am also being sceptic about sceptisism in general, for how many times in history have sceptisism not prevented development? And how many times have sceptisism not proven to be right? (Both have occured, so the only way to know which, is to actually try it.)

I would give it a go myself, if it wasn¨t because I am living outside USA, so the shipping costs would actually make the Anaconda package seem cheap in comparison. (Plus, I don¨t have the time to train as much, as they appearantly suggest in the Protocol)

And yes, you might consider my viewpoint silly, but over time I have gotten sick and tired of so called “scientifically proven” facts, on a subject which we are still knowing so little about compared to the total sum of potential knokwledge. So my solution? put things to the supreme test: “Does it actually work?” (And not by talking or discussing it, but by actually down-to-earth-doing-the-damn-thing-no-matter-how-silly-it-seems.)

David on
November 29th, 2009 11:34 am

Hi all, nice work having this thread.

I read T-Nation a bit, and mostly the hype doesn’t bother me, but this last one just infuriated me with its extreme levels of bullshite and more than anything, the number of otherwise respectable people endorsing it. Maybe the big guns are paid, maybe others can’t bear to come out and say it wasn’t great after spending such a huge amount of money on it. Maybe it is in a marketing sweet spot – anyone dumb enough to spend the huge money on it is also too ashamed to admit to themselves that it wasn’t worth the cash.

Or maybe it is a bit better than normal supplements and therefore, possibly worth the money to some people. Or maybe they aren’t great at determining what is working anyway.

Sadly it is hard to trust the endorsements of say, the elite lifters who like it – because they might be getting paid for it. Same goes for all coaches.

If it works – if 12 months down the track, there is an army of incredible results amongst many people, then I would give it a try.

But I doubt that will happen. I’d guess most will try it and realise it doesn’t work well enough to justify the cost.

Pretty sick of T Nation though … I’ve had some of my posts censored there, specifically about chocolate milk vs surge and how many tests on post workout nutrition were done on subjects who were in a FASTING STATE so obviously it makes a big difference.

TC has turned into Bill Phillips, but not as successful. Also, TC has no muscle, he is a very average looking dude. Which I find a bit of a joke.

David on
November 29th, 2009 2:13 pm

A few more points I meant to make …

Cost – if it was only $10 for the month, I would still consider the claims to be outrageous. Although at such a low price it would be worth trying out.

Christian Thibaudeau – I believe someone, somewhere in the T-Nation forums asked how he was going with the increased bodyweight, to which he replied he had let all that extra weight go, because he was much happier at a lower bodyweight. I can’t find the post, but on 10-09-2009 he claimed he was “depending on my health I’m anywhere between 242 and 205” … from all this I suspect that the supplements and training bloated him out a bit to a heavier weight, claim the massive gains in the marketing, and then he went back to normal.

While I haven’t bothered debating the stupidity, I will make this one comment:

There will not be an army of success stories 12 months down the road. There will be zero. Because the claims being made for this are so beyond what is physiologically possible as to be utterly absurd. Not even the strongest drug cycle could put 30 pounds of true muscle on someone in 9 weeks. And Thib claims his guys did it with magic protein. Sure.

But T-nation has carefully set things up so that users of their overpriced snake oil will blame themselves for the lack of results.

First Thib wrote his ‘perfect rep’ article, now the workout seems to require 3 workouts/day 6 days/week (a schedule no human can follow) and fat bars (which 99% of gyms don’t have).

So when the results don’t come, and make no mistake, they will not: the user can be blamed. Oh, the program was perfect but your reps were not, and since you didn’t follow the impossible workout with impossible equipment, we can’t take the blame. You simply weren’t hardcore enough.

And TC and the rest will laugh all the way to the bank while the marks eat up the snake oil.

That’s on top of them marking up a product that can be put together for $35/bottle about 5 fold. Go source bulk casein (hydrolysate being inferior to the straight protein), citrulline, beta-alanine and creatine in bulk. You can make te identical product for $1.45 per serving and since it’s not based on a hydrolysate, won’t require some idiotic ‘intense flavoring’ to make it palatable (hydrolyates tasting, by and large, like bleach).

Biut you know what, anybody too stupid to see through the bullshit, who can’t look at the facts of the matter (laid out by Alan in this article) deserves what they get.

David on
November 29th, 2009 6:11 pm

lylemcd – I agree completely, however I always try to be as diplomatic as possible in my responses, especially when posting on T-Nation

When I say “If it works – if 12 months down the track, there is an army of incredible results amongst many people, then I would give it a try.” what I am really saying is, SHOW ME THE FRIKKING PROOF YOU LYING BASTARDS AND I WANT PHOTOS AND AN ARMY OF PEOPLE WHO GOT RESULTS

But in a subtle way that I can post on T-Nation, subtle but hopefully effective enough to warn off people.

Also I wonder how many of the fanatic followers are real people and how many are just paid to troll the site cheering the products.

20-25 lbs of weight variance is easy to pull off. I regularly can lose 10kg of fat from a 4 week vacation and lose no strength – I do it all the time, well every year or two. Similarly I can easily come back from a trip and gain 10kg rapidly. It’s not muscle but it can easily look like it is muscle.

If Thib put on 30lbs maybe he did so within a range that he has been in for ages, maybe he took himself from 205 to 242. Who cares? … the little guys who weigh 150 and think they are going to add 30lbs in 8 weeks, that’s who.

zraw on
November 30th, 2009 11:55 pm

I guess both biotest and trueprotein are wrong about casein hydrolysate/peptopro benefits than.

Cause we all know trueprotein is also crap, right?

-Lol.

What the hell are you talking about saying regular casein (miscellar) is superior to hydrolysate casein..

They serve two different purposes…and have a very different absorbtion rate

To me it just seems like you people were bashing the product before it was even released, when you were clueless about what was in it.

Now, you just try to bash the price

Peptopro goes for 28$/pound when you buy in bulk, just so you know..

Oh and no I dont work for Biotest, yes I will try the product, no I dont expect to miraculously gain 30 pounds.

As far as CT weight is concerned, he had to get it down because he has some health issue with his heart, dont feel like searching for the quote.

Keep hatin, it makes you ppl look smart .. or not

Nick on
December 1st, 2009 1:24 am

yea seriously… and Lyle, the workout doesn’t not require three workouts a day….. u seem to be skimming the threads…

might learn something about the difference between overhyped claims and reality.

David on
December 1st, 2009 11:49 am

zraw, if you post anything on T-Nation that is even remotely questioning, your posts don’t get through. That alone is enough reason to hate where biotest have gone lately. Especially since I know where they came from, decades ago, and it makes me a bit sick to see them become what they hated.

sure people are bashing the product before it is out, there is no evidence as yet just wild claims, excuses and hype.

You know what would be a really good marketing campaign? If they took a few clients, gave them the stuff and showed before/after progress. So far I’ve only read about it – where are the pics? Where is the evidence?

Better yet, get TC to use it and put on some muscle. You don’t see many pictures of TC, but stick a bag on his head and put him in the “Rate My Physique” thread, people will laugh at him. I don’t care about his level of development, that is his business, but claiming you have mega products that achieve mega results, and bashing on anyone who is not well developed, etc.. and blah, well maybe he could show us some progress.

I have no doubt the stuff is pretty good, but is it worthwhile for the cost – especially compared to other products – and for people at most levels of development, it is most likely a huge waste of money. Not a small waste of money, but a HUGE waste of money.

There are many ways to get people to waste there money – make them pay for rubbish e.g sugar, or make them pay for expensive ingredients at a fair price but they don’t need. The best of course is to make them pay for rubbish at a super high price and convince them it is essential – plenty of these have come around.

PeptoPro – Casein Hydrolysate – is £39.95 for 1kg in the UK – that is damned expensive stuff. But that is for 1kg of the STUFF, not for 1kg of protein+sugars+whatever else. I don’t know exactly what is in the new stuff, but if you look at their other products like Surge with 16 serves a container vs pure Hydrolysed Whey Protein at 30 serves a container and 2/3rd the price (when you compare for servings) you are basically paying for sugar.

So, is it rubbish? Prove us wrong please! By all means demonstrate the reproducible results that will sweep the world. I know that sounds like I am taunting you, but if it proves to be great, then I will admit it, and if it proves to be yet another over hyped unnecessary product, then I wish people would learn from that.

Because the real secret is hard work over a long period of time – even with the best drugs, food, genetics and routine.

David on
December 1st, 2009 12:01 pm

lyle thanks for that you’ve just saved me trying Casein Hydrolysate at great expense.

I have to say though that Hydrolysed Whey tends to agree with me, doesn’t taste bad and doesn’t need flavouring, and doesn’t cause digestive problems other whey can – this is purely my experience, very personal. And I don’t think it works well enough to warrant the price.

People should read that article or at least this bit:

“Summing up: Hydrolysates are not only not superior to intact protein in terms of providing amino acids to skeletal muscle, they are distinctly inferior. Their fast digestion speed leads to greater digestive losses, more oxidation via deamination and provides less amino acids to skeletal muscle. That’s on top of tasting like vomit. Or at least making you want to.”

… make sure you pick out the double negative in the first line, they are not only NOT superior.

Quoting David: “Also I wonder how many of the fanatic followers are real people and how many are just paid to troll the site cheering the products.”

^^My guess is that a huge % of the t-mag forum posters are shills, paid in cash or supps. Thus, their sole objective is to push the products and oppose any criticism. The rest of the forum members are just newbs & nonthinking sheep. In case anyone missed this link a couple posts up, here it is again:

As for “just trying the product for yourself”, personal trial is always flawed by expectation bias. The greater the belief in the product, the more positively you’ll respond, and the more zealous your testimony will be. If you’re a shill, then your reported results will be spectacular.

Thib claims he gained 27 lbs in 6 weeks.
He claims that one of his trainees gained 30 lbs in 9 weeks on drugs.

Why are there no before and afters of either transformation?

Why is there no video of Thib outlifting every top strength athlete on the planet?

I mean, a digital camera is about $80 and it’s not as if T-nation isn’t known for putting pictures and videos up. Even a video camera is only a couple of hundred.

So why are these results being claimed with zero proof?

Here’s a hint: it’s because they never happened (because they aren’t physiologically possible) because they are total bullshit.

Lyke

zraw on
December 1st, 2009 10:46 pm

Lyle, do you consider trueprotein to be bullshit?

A yes or no answer will sufice

Nick on
December 1st, 2009 11:49 pm

Lyle, you linked an Aragon article…. how about giving a credible source to back up your claim? ..

I’ll respect a logical response like David’s, even though I don’t necessarily agree… but you guys (Lyle, Alan) clearly have an agenda….

and the people you accuse of being “T-Nation defenders” are simply saying you can’t be bashing something that’s not released….and next time you want to back up a claim, try linking a website other than your own…

Nick – you must either be a) a troll or b) a t-mag shill. Either way, it looks like you’re the one with the agenda. Lyle linked an article where he picked apart primary research, and yet, you chose to respond with a nonsensical accusation. If you don’t have an agenda, why are you anonymous? I’ll tell you why: because it’s easier to troll & shill when you hide behind an alias. Feel free to prove me wrong by telling me exactly who you are. Go ahead, surprise me.

In today’s research, I showed that casein hydrolysate is not only NOT superior to intact casein but distinctly inferior. Unless your goal is protein synthesis in the gut. And it tastes so utterly bad that they had to provide a separate intense flavoring. Give me a fucking break.

Moving on
creatine: hooray. You can get this in bulk for $12 per kilo. Anyone who thinks oxo-whatwever they’re using is magic is dumb as a box of rocks.

beta-alanine: solid research but the daily dose in all studies is 400-800 mg 4X/day. That’s 3 grams/day max. Anaconda appears to have 5 grams per serving. At 3 servings per day that’s 15 grams, only 5 times the required dose. And enjoy the histamine flush.

Citrulline malate: great for finger fatigue. seriously, read the studies.

Bottom line: if you source flavored casein from trueprotein, creatine, beta-alanine and citrulline from 1fast, throw in some light salt for electrolytes you can make the identical product for $35 per 25 servings. What are they charging for this shit?

I said it before and I’ll say it again: anybody too dumb to see through this con deserves what they get.

zraw on
December 2nd, 2009 2:37 am

Good thing you ignored a question so easy to reply to…

I will agree about the bulk buy mix that would be cheaper but the fact is that this is the case for almost all, if not all, supplements.

zraw on
December 2nd, 2009 2:48 am

Oh btw, on trueprotein, to have something “similar” would cost about 42$

ATZ on
December 2nd, 2009 8:45 am

Zraw,

Why do trueprotein back products such as peptopro you ask?

I’ll tell you why: $$$$

Anything marketed as highly as Peptopro / Hydrolysed Caesin / Anaconda is bound to shift thousands of units purely on hype alone – the uniformed purchase it, realise it expensive, horrible tasting rubbish then never buy it again. However the hype is enough to trick droves of noobs into paying for it.

This continues to happen with all sorts of products – Maximuscle here in the UK charging 3 x the price for “Cryogenically extracted anabolic Whey”, see the old Celltech scandal and others in the US – Liquid Creatine anyone?

There will continue to be a line of useless, overpriced products produced as long as there is a supplement industry. The uninformed will buy them at considerable cost then discard, it happens time and time again. Once in a while a product comes a long that actually does something – think Beta Alanine recently, but other than that not much has changed in supplementation in the last 10years. The only things that are proven to “work” are: Protein Powder, Fish Oil, and Creatine.

Almost everything else is fringe to diet and hardwork.

David on
December 2nd, 2009 9:14 am

In defense of T-Nation …..

OK first let me state that I do not think this product is going to live up to the hype, it is overpriced, and what really matters is exercise, diet, rest, and basic supplements – and the mind.

However a few points in defense of T-Nation …

They have a thread going where people are arguing about the marketing hype etc… and they seem to be dealing with it quite fairly. That is good to see because what annoyed me more than anything was that they have lately been highly censored, cutting out anything that put them in a bad light. You still won’t find links to the chocolate milk vs surge articles, or scientific papers pointing out that they are lying, but at least there is some debate going on. The link is here

Prof X is not hiding that he is now working with biotest, at least as a subject trying the product officially, he even has a blog thread on it. His recent responses praising it seemed to me that he was on the payroll, since for decades he has been more about the training and eating than products, so suddenly singing the praises was very suspicious. However, I think he has probably been a bit haphazard with his diet, is way overweight (fat) and is actually following a proper strategy now – or at least a strategy rather than just eat. With promises of competing and perhaps sponsorship, and at least coaching, this is all tempting to him I think. And good because it would be nice to see a picture of him for a change instead of just hearing about the legend.

The hype and belief in the product itself is worth buying into for some, because that belief affects their mind, and their mind affects their workout, progress, recovery. Do not underestimate the value of this. People pay a lot of money for the psychological aspects of coaching, hypnosis, goal setting etc… and part of what Biotest are selling is BELIEF. Sure it might be false belief but that is not the point. As a rich cosmetics dealer once said, “I don’t sell makeup – I sell hope.” Maybe it will get them actually putting in an effort, some people need to have invested money before investing time and effort.

All advertising is always misleading, hype. Not just products, but politicians, and hey those in dating game. Such is life …

You can’t really expect companies like Biotest to come clean and say “Look, there is nothing new, protein is it, here is ours, it costs more, you want muscle, train hard for 5 solid years, and you won’t approach those genetically blessed anyway, because if you had a hope you’d be deadlifting 700 by the time you’re 18 and already look like a monster. You will never be able to overcompensate for the feelings of inadequacy that are driving you to be huuuuge noooow” – who the heck wants to hear that? Not the kids that’s for sure. They certainly won’t pay to hear it. But if they did they’d save a lot of money.

Trueprotein sells protein. They dont endorse peptopro, they simply sell what the market is willing to buy. All supplement stores (e.g. 1fast400.com do this) and 99% of what they sell is bullshit too.

Or consider: bookstores sell books that aren’t written well. Or are filled with bullshit and lies.

And record stores sell albums that suck.

And they all do it because they are in the business of selling what people are willing to pay for. They don’t quality check or look at whether it’s good, bad works or not. That’s trueprotein.

Contrast that to T-nation, making ludicrous claims (disproved by primary research) for something that they actively pimp.

Arguing that that someone carries a product is automatically an implicit endorsement is moronic.

zraw on
December 2nd, 2009 12:24 pm

I was actually asking not because trueprotein sells peptopro but rather because a lot of knowledgeable people at IM have been saying pretty good things about it, Dante included.

As far as “they’re selling it because there’s a demand” if im not mistaken, they started selling it in 2007, before it was even popular.

Nick on
December 2nd, 2009 7:05 pm

David, there actually is a mention of the choco-milk vs surge and the post deletion on the t-nation site…TC mentions in an early IBB thread how he locked it and did delete a few posts because a certain someone was bashing a product that had just been brought up, and was many months away from even being released. He went on to say that this certain someone seemed to have it in for Biotest and T-Nation, and that the website had passed on a few articles this certain someone had submitted. Now to what degree this is true, I do not know, so I will not comment….I won’t go as low as to call “troll” on this certain someone….

On that subject, Alan, my alias is Nick, it stands for Nick, also my name…I wish I could surprise you, but sorry, you do not know me…. Furthermore, I have no affiliation to biotest or T-Nation…. I use some of their products, and maybe I’ll never even try Anaconda… but I won’t comment on it either….if you hate everything T-nation does, why do you have Alwyn Cosgrove’s praise on your website.?..

…as I said previously, I don’t give a rat’s ass if you question the marketing tactics or the hype used at hand, I even agree that it is a little intense, but it’s far from being as bad as the claims some companies make by slapping a “Grow ten pounds of pure muscle in one week” on their bottle…. IBB reports what happened to them during this time, if you do not believe them, then ok let’s move on, no need to write ten articles about it… but when you start bashing Thibs, a class-act, humble, straight up guy who lives and breathes training, and who clearly wouldn’t ever risk the years of making a name for himself for a get rich quick scheme, you just end up looking silly….

“On that subject, Alan, my alias is Nick, it stands for Nick, also my name…I wish I could surprise you, but sorry, you do not know me…. Furthermore, I have no affiliation to biotest or T-Nation…. I use some of their products, and maybe I’ll never even try Anaconda… but I won’t comment on it either….if you hate everything T-nation does, why do you have Alwyn Cosgrove’s praise on your website.?..”

^^^Since you claim you’re not a shill nor a troll, then I have no choice but to classify you as someone with plenty of learning to do. Why? because you’re coming off as a newb who’s failing to comprehend the research presented. I’m just shooting straight with you, no offense intended. Also, your logic regarding Cosgrove is flawed. Are you calling Cosgrove a product of T-nation because he’s written for them? Well, in that case you can call me a REAL T-BRO, because I’ve written for T-mag as well. Now, unless you can dispute any of my claims with research, I’m not interested in bantering over false logic and bullshit.

Nick on
December 2nd, 2009 9:20 pm

No no.. I’m not saying Cosgrove is a product of T-Nation by any means, it was a legitimate question (not a rhetorical one) in regards to you coming off as a guy that hates anything associated with T-Nation, but seems to show a certain level of respect for one of it’s contributors…. that’s all…

as for false logic, bullshit, or calling me a newb, that’s once again you bashing the person rather than defending an argument. I have not once, put down your research or discussed anything directly related to training, nutrition, research, or supplementation. I am however criticizing your methods, and am saying that you guys are basically are everything you accuse t-nation of being, and much more ….

BJ Folsom on
December 2nd, 2009 11:05 pm

ur credibility is instantly destroyed when you review a product that aint out yet you just look like a self serving egomenical fool….whatever made you think that was a good idea? did that choco milk increase ur stupid mass too?

zraw on
December 3rd, 2009 2:12 am

I wont review the product itself for now but i will say this : It taste pretty good

Oh and I had a pregnant woman belly at the end

ATZ on
December 3rd, 2009 6:59 am

BJ – its a protein supplement. If you’ve been training for any length of time you’ll be fully aware that no amount of magic protein is going to produce the results quoted. What next? Protein IV drips?

That’s why the bashing is going on, it’s promoting unrealistic gains with the main target being noobs who don’t know better.

T-nation did have credibility when it statred out, and even up until the last year they produced some quality unbiased content (the odd own supp article aside). Now the whole thing has been turned into one big marketing machine with most articles trying to push one of their products, taking advantage of this once good reputation. They’re just as bad as any mainstrem supp compnay marketing now, with outlandish claims and studues that alledgedly back them up. Some would say they’re worse as they’re coming off the back of their once good rep to blag money from the less informed. They’re in this for themselves pure and simple. Good luck to them, and to you if you’re foolish enought to pay 3 x the price for what essentially is just protein and aminos.

eponymous on
December 3rd, 2009 9:52 am

Some of the ideas are good, but the claims and prices are crazy. Is peri-workout good? Sure. Why? You are probably taking in another few hundred cals that you weren’t before. Is carbs and protein post workout good? Sure, same reason. When I started lifting a different company just recommended mixing their protein with grape or orange juice post workout. Other people just added sugar to their protein shakes. Football coaches for decades have been telling kids to eat ice cream to gain weight.

Same reason I have a cup of coffee before the gym. All sorts of magic energy drinks, etc., but I can make a cup of coffee for pennies, or drink for free at work. I can have some gatorade while I am working out. I can make a post workout shake with milk and protein (at less than $10/lb.) and some sugar.

I used to be one of the t-nation faithful, I tried some of their products but really bought into their forum. Then I stated to notice guys that would break the 200 lbs. mark and when they posted a picture they looked terrible, really bad like greater than 20% BF bad. And they were proud of it!

Finally IBB and the new protocol came out and that was it for me. I like the way that they label amino acids as AAS…coincidentally the internet slang for AnAbolic Steroids. The ridiculous claims, the bro-science backing it up. Then you have some bigger guys that actually ballooned up and are backing up the claims. Some of arguably the bigger guys on the board.

Back to my point as I am rambling, the last straw fro me was the heavy handed “moderation” (censorship) which I have witness firsthand. This prevents any sort of debate over their products. I was starting to buy into their message, but that is because 1) no opposing views are allowed and 2) the community has brainwashed the masses that they are the most hardcore, to go to other sites is a waste of time so any sort of outside research is strongly discouraged.

Alan, thank you for these articles. Thank you for freeing my mind. Lyle thank you for hosting this site.

Nick on
December 3rd, 2009 12:20 pm

I spend about $80-$100 in supplements per month…is that blinnnnndd? hardly…. this peri-workout strategy allows you to hit 4000 calories a day by only eating 4 meals a day + the protocol….. in my mind that’s like paying $5 or so a day for a 1400 calorie or so meal that contains quality protein and quality carbs… It may be unnafordable to some, and I fully respect that , but for others it’s a sound investment… it’s probably one of the better and cheaper options to add calories to your diet…..sure, adding a ton of sugar would be a cheaper way, but that’s not something I’d put my body through…..all this to say that the money issue is overstated, if you spend big on food, you can actually end up spending less by planning it out….

That being said, whether you like it or not, Anaconda has been used by athletes prior to it’s official release…. this can classified under “fact”… granted, some of these people don’t have the money issue, but as far as I can tell, a lot of athletes keep using it….that alone makes me weary of anybody dismissing the product as pure “crap”…. money question aside, can you benefit from a product such as Anaconda? clearly some people say yes…. not newbs, not biotest crew, but people on the actual playing field…

Nick. You HAVE to be a shill. I’ve never seen someone so faithfull to utter bullshit. So, who exactly are you? I asked you that question and you never gave me a complete answer. Link me to your profile on T-nation, help me believe you’re not a shill.

“Back to my point as I am rambling, the last straw fro me was the heavy handed “moderation” (censorship) which I have witness firsthand. This prevents any sort of debate over their products. I was starting to buy into their message, but that is because 1) no opposing views are allowed and 2) the community has brainwashed the masses that they are the most hardcore, to go to other sites is a waste of time so any sort of outside research is strongly discouraged.”

^^^Yeah, that seems to be the T-business model. Capture the ignorant, keep them ignorant, sell them product. Once in a while someone escapes that mess…comgrats.

David on
December 3rd, 2009 6:01 pm

I echo eponymous’ experience pretty much exactly. For me it has reached the stage where I don’t believe anything on T-Nation by default.

Thanks for running this thread, hope some more people have a look and think for themselves.

WraithOD on
December 4th, 2009 1:18 am

I doubt it will ever happen, but I’d really love to see a double blind study on Anaconda. I suspect that a lot of the “success” stories are psychological barriers that were broken through (or just outright denial) in order to avoid buyers remorse. At $85 a bottle and $345 for the “complete” package, I would be EXTREMELY motivated to not feel like a moron for spending so much on what is likely just marketing hype.

I’ve given T-Muscle some leeway with unabashedly hyping their products due to the fact that they do have some good articles on the site. After seeing the pricing of Anaconda, the truly ridiculous levels of hype surrounding it, and the one-sided forum moderation, I have decided to boycott all of their products.

Many thanks go out to Alan and Lyle for backing up their assertions with research, allowing dissenting opinions to be heard, and actually responding to them!

“Back to the issue of Anaconda, a couple of people on the protocol have complained of indigestion from drinking 2-3 liters of water, 2 dried out protein bars, and 100g of powdered protein in the half hour prior to their workout. Also, 2-3 people have said that they straight out puked it out. This doesn’t sound like a protocol that’s worth 350$.”

Wow, T-nation really has a winner with this, don’t they. Not only will no-one make the claimed results, folks are already having negative responses.

Mark my words: 3 months from now T-nation will pretend none of this never happened. The claims will be nowhere to be seen on the site and they’ll unleash the next scam for the t-faithful to eat up with a spoon.

Or perhaps puke out.

ha ha.

ATZ on
December 4th, 2009 7:48 am

To quote Nick:

“I spend about $80-$100 in supplements per month…is that blinnnnndd? hardly…. this peri-workout strategy allows you to hit 4000 calories a day by only eating 4 meals a day + the protocol….. in my mind that’s like paying $5 or so a day for a 1400 calorie or so meal that contains quality protein and quality carbs… It may be unnafordable to some, and I fully respect that , but for others it’s a sound investment… it’s probably one of the better and cheaper options to add calories to your diet…..sure, adding a ton of sugar would be a cheaper way, but that’s not something I’d put my body through…..”

I find this statement highly amusing, mainly due to the irony of it. Adding a ton of sugar would be a cheaper way, well guess what the main Carbohydrate source in Finibars is…. Rice Oligodextrin and isomalutose. So 3 bars (as per the protcol recommendations) is 120g of starch and palintose – a sugar. Wow, that’s quality nutrition right there.

All of which could be got from wholefoods with the associated mirconutrients a lot cheaper

More early feedback from the Anaconda users. Yeah, this looks like good stuff: hurts performance and makes people lose their lunch or shit their brains out.

Wait and see how long it is before the T-nation moderators make posts like that disappear from the Anaconda forum

***
“I guess I’m a wimp when it comes to that amount of water… I officially puked on our brand new rubber flooring. I guess I shouldn’t have forced the water down. It really didn’t look like so much in the bottle, but my tummy said otherwise.”

“And to everyone else, I won’t lie, the 2L plus the finibars, and my breakfast an hour before is rough. I can handle it, but by the end of the workout I feel like I would after thanksgiving dinner or something.”

“After the workout I got back to work and shat like a banshee. Seriously have never had so much liquid come out that end. Anyone else experience this yet? Should I start with a lower dose perhaps?”

“Yep, I nearly puked after yesterday’s workout. I had to cut [my workout] short because of the nausea- cotton-mouthed too (strange, considering all the liquid I was consuming). I was determined to keep my dollars down, so rather than explode, I stopped about 300ml from finishing, packed up my bag, went home, and just…sat (watched TUF finale). I was fine after about an hour, then finished up the Protocol. Oh…I too shat like a banshee”

zraw on
December 4th, 2009 4:07 pm

Anyone not used to drinking 2L of water in a period of 1hour would feel bloated.. i hope u do realise that lyle..

zraw – I hope you do realize that anyone willing to force 2L of fluid in an hour just to comply with a supplement ad is a… [insert favorite euphemism for FUCKING IDIOT]

Nick on
December 4th, 2009 6:27 pm

ATZ…. Dude, simple sugars and rice oligodextrin are not the same thing….

ALAN… I’m the one who doesn’t answer questions fully? You seem to avoid every thing with slant techniques… I told you my name and that there’s no way you know me, why would you want my T-Nation profile? what could you possibly use that for? and what is this utter bullshit I believe in? Is it that:

A) I’m lying that when I say that, worked into my monthly grocery bills, I don’t end up spending a significant extra amount (if any) on supplements?

B) You disagree that some athetes have been using Anaconda… be it free or supplied to by a trainer

C) you disagree that you have a habit of slamming any opposing views by either bashing them, dismissing them, or using slants + you have an agenda

cause those are pretty much the only three statements I’ve made so far…

as for people that disagree with things you say,; newbs, shills, trolls aren’t the only existing options…. If not, do you go around using this logic in your everyday life “Hun, I think we should get a van and you don’t, therefore you’re either a troll, a shill, or a newb…”

MOST OF YOU who say they got censored by t-nation, I don’t know what you’re posting…. but I once commented a TC article by saying it was “moronic and the attitude pretty much summed up everything that was wrong with the gym world” and I didn’t get censored, I actually got a well thought-out rebuttle… just saying

LYLE, I think locking the thread is a mistake. Isn’t that what so many people here are accusing T-Nation of doing?… why is it no longer fruitful?

And I want to reiterate that I never came in here with the intention of bashing. I only found this site because I was looking up other sources talking about Anaconda. Had it not been of the foul smell of agenda, I would’ve read and moved on… I had read articles written by both you and Alan in the past, but it was my first visiting the site…. and the fact that attention is so often brought to biotest products, I can’t help but think it’s somewhat of a tactic to get people looking up t-nation material to your site. Type “alan aragon” on google and “alan aragon I bodybuilder” is like the first suggestion….

and if it were true that it was easy to sell “crap supplements” to uninformed masses, I would’ve started my own line ages ago…. I think it’s easier to convince an uninformed person that they don’t need to spend money on supplements, rather than convincing them they do….and I’m sure quite a few people were considering but hesitant to buy a biotest product, and decided to search outside the site and found you immediately, and were probably easily conviced to save their money…. and I’m not telling all these people that they should go back and take a plunge investing their hard earned cash in something they haven’t researched at all… I’m actually saying that, depending on your goals, finances, priorities, make an INFORMED decision on what you need and don’t need… don’t buy Anaconda just cause TC told you to….. and don’t believe it’s all utter bullshit just cause Alan Aragon “enlightened” you…

All the objective scientific proof has been provided (or linked) for you here in the article above, and in the responses below it. Let me strongly suggest you give both the article & the comments another thorough comb-through. Then read Lyle’s article I linked discussing casein hydro.

Wanting to learn & become educated is one thing. Professing your faith and hope in a truly obnoxious supp advertising campaign is another thing entirely.

Ok, now that everyone has had a chance to get in their last word, including Nick, I’m going to give the last last word before closing comments on this piece. It’s reached a pint where folks are either arguing in circles or saying nothing.

So, let’s sum up:
1. Christian Thibdeau claims, using a top secret protocol that he gained 27 lbs of muscle in 6 weeks, putting him at a lean body mass that not only exceeds (by far) the muscularity of any natural bodybuilder but that of many (known to be steroid using) Mr. Olympia contenders.

2. In doing so, he claims that he reached a strength level in the overhead press that, as Casey Butt os clearly showed, would put him at a strength level above and beyond just about every top athlete EVER.

3. Thib claims that a supersecret training protocol, utilized with the new Anaconda product allowed his athletes (using steroids) to gain 30 lbs of muscle in 9 weeks. Pretty amazing that he gained 27 lbs in 6 weeks ‘naturally’ but they only gained 30 in 9 weeks?

None of the above claims, so far as can be told, have any proof beyond Thib’s assertion that they are true. No video, no before and after photos, just his claim that that’s what happened.

In contrast, science clearly shows a limit to how much lean body mass can be held by natural bodybuilders. And, as Alan showed in this piece, and as mentioned above, Thib would now be carrying more muscle (claiming he is natural) than many Mr. Olympia competitors.

The product, released by T-nation, called anaconda has as its primary ingredient hydrolyzed casein. Which objective science shows is not only NOT superior to intact casein but is infact inferior as hell and providing less amino acids to skeletal muscle because more is lost to digestion, more is used for energy in the live, and more is used in the gut for protein sythesis.

And since it’s inception, the major report from users appears to be a combination of explosive shitting and puking due to the absolute absurdity of the protocol.

Yet the T-nation faithful, every desparate to believe, refuse to accept logic or science and prefer unverified claims and bullshit. And all the while TC and his cronies will laugh all the way to the bank. Just like they’ve been doing since the exception of the site.

And that’s why I’m closing this thread. The faitful don’t want science or facts, they want to beleive the hype. And as I’m fond of saying: you can’t argue with stupid.

In closing, I leave readers with two things.

The first is this: mark my words, 3-6 months from now, after the Anaconda protocol fails completely (which it will), T-nation will pretend that this never happened. They will blame the end user for the lack of results, for not following the training or being hardcore enough.

But after it fails, they will make no mention of it and will simply cue up the next bit hype/scam for the desparate to take advantage of (and watch them delete all negative commentary from their forums afterwards). T

hose of you who so loudly defended T-nation and anaconda in the comment, please keep this in mind. In 6 months you can come back to this thread and wish that you had listened to Alan and I.

You may wonder how I know this, here’s how: I’ve been following the supplement industry for nearly 20 years, as has Alan. This is how it works, this is how it always works. The magazines introduce the newest hyped con, the suckers line up and part with their hard earned money and 6 months later they do it all again. And nobody ever learns or listens.

Finally, I leave you with the following quote:
“It’s obvious that most men have a hard time gaining 15-25 pounds of muscle in a year (in my opinion this size improvement will lead to signficant visible changes.”

Here’s where it comes from: Theory and Application of Modern Strength and Power Methods, 2nd Edition by a Mister Christian Thibadeau with Tony Schwartz. Page 82.

So here’s a question for the T-nation faithful. Given Thib’s claims for Anaconda and the Black Ops project, why does it diverge so much from what he put in his book?

Was he lying in his book or in his claims on T-nation?

When you figure out the answer to that last question, you might just be a little bit brighter for it.

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