Jenson Button thread

"I think Button's career and his performances have been jo-joing quite a lot.It was as obvious as a dogs dangly bits that he had immense talent when he entered the sport in '00, more or less matching Ralf Schumacher and even out-qualifying him on the drivers-tracks.In '01 and '02 I believe the F1-lifestyle got in the way of concentrating on his own performance, and that coupled with a difficult car sort of "prevented" him from showing the big jump in performance all drivers have from the rookie season to the second season. Button poured cold water over himself some time into the '02-season and again it was evident he had real talent, as he pushed and sometimes beat Trulli.He built on that in '03 when he joined B.A.R and got all the attention from Richards. That put him in a comfy environment and he really maximised his potential I think. However I've always maintained that he was a bit flattered but the hopeless situation Villeneuve found himself in, as I'm sure the atmosphere he experienced put a stoppage to him extracting everything from himself. This is sports phsycolgy and it's fantasy thinking it doesn't come into the picture in F1 as well.'04 was a great season and yes, there were whispers in the paddock about an interest from Ferrari. Overall I think he performed fantastically, but was surprised to learn a year or two later that "rival team engineers had put the numbers and parametres into their sims and concluded that Button should have won atleast one or perhaps two races that year". Button absolutely smashed Sato but ironically it was Sato who came closest to winning a race that year, the US GP but the team pitted him at the wrong moment and denied him the top step of the podium.'05 was when Button showed himself as a very, very good one-lap qualifier, and he once again had a really good season.'06 came the first win and not surprisingly it came in the wet.The seasons coupled with Barrichello was on average pretty one-sided I think. Button always performed better than Barrichello by a healthy margin even if he got fewer points on the table in one season. (I put the average margin to the Schumacher-fans, saying Button's advantage on Barrichello is very close to what Schumacher had. Are they (almost) as good/fast? -they didn't like that, but in all fairness I've always said that cross comparing over different seasons and teams doesn't work. It is or could be a pointer though.)

Quite accurate analysis on his early years.

The idea of Button should have won races in 2004 has come up several times before, and my question to that is 'Which races are they talking about then?'. I'm not impressed by rival team engineers fiddling about with some numbers. Really not. At no point in the season, BAR looked like the quickest car. Button didn't ruin any chances himself by mistakes either.

Also I can't remember Sato being close to winning at the US GP. As at most of the races, Ferrari was dominant and Sato wasn't going to break that. It was his only podium compared to Buttons' 10. I'm sure one of those was closer to a win than Sato's race at Indianapolis. Plus, Button retired right behind him with a gearbox failure.

I wouldn't say the fight with Barrichello was one-sided either. Only in 2006 he really outclassed him by scoring almost double the amount of points. In that season he beat him Schumi-style. In 2007/2008 though they were evenly matched and in 2009 he was only a little ahead.

And I don't know exactly at who you're aiming your last sentence at.

Oh, the last sentence isn't aimed at you, it's just that I've seen that some seem to celebrate Button beating Hamilton already.

I think it was B.A.R's dodgy pit stop-call that prevented Sato from any chance of winning the '04 US GP. I can imagine Hockenheim may've been a race where rival engineers concluded the pace was there, but I assume they didn't count that as one of the two tracks, 'cause Button had to fight from the back there. Maybe Imola was one?

I disagree about Button v Barrichello. It was Button all the way in some seasons and last year was from from even. As has been said before, Barrichello was way off when Button won six races at the beginning of the season.

I can remember Schumacher leading with the BAR's behind him. At a safety car, Schumacher pitted, still stayed in the lead, and thereby the BAR's had no chance for the victory. Or am I wrong there? Can't exactly remember. I don't think Sato had a big chance of winning anyway. If anything, he had to pass Schumacher directly on track. Would have been quite a challenge. Button retired with a broken gearbox somewhere halfway though.

Button's best chance perhaps was Imola indeed, but the only reason he got that pole was because Schumacher made a mistake in his qualy lap. Ferrari was quicker, it was obvious and no surprise Schumacher won there.

Other races.. no idea, Monaco he got 2nd but the Renault's were dominating.

In Brazil he looked like having a chance but retired in early stages with an engine problem.

Lot of pace displayed throughout their careers, took 96 races for Hakkinen to win and 113 races for Button to win.

Both stuck with the same team throughout the dreary years, Hakkinen during McLarens lean period and Button during the Honda years.

Both won their championships the year after they seemed, arguably, to be on the cusp of losing interest in F1.

Button was soundly beaten by Barrichello in 2008. Button crashed into Heidfeld in Monaco and spun off at Silverstone, both wet races during which he could have scored. Barrichello got a podium in the latter.

Hakkinen was out-scored by Coulthard in 1997 but mostly due to Hakkinens appalling luck. Engine failures at Silverstone, A1-Ring and Nurburgring while leading among many other problems. He got his first victory but only after Coulthard moved over.

I can remember Schumacher leading with the BAR's behind him. At a safety car, Schumacher pitted, still stayed in the lead, and thereby the BAR's had no chance for the victory. Or am I wrong there? Can't exactly remember. I don't think Sato had a big chance of winning anyway. If anything, he had to pass Schumacher directly on track. Would have been quite a challenge. Button retired with a broken gearbox somewhere halfway though.

Button's best chance perhaps was Imola indeed, but the only reason he got that pole was because Schumacher made a mistake in his qualy lap. Ferrari was quicker, it was obvious and no surprise Schumacher won there.

Other races.. no idea, Monaco he got 2nd but the Renault's were dominating.

In Brazil he looked like having a chance but retired in early stages with an engine problem.

For the rest.. I really don't know.

Monaco! Surely that was one of them. I can imagine those rival engineers thinking the car had performance enough for Button to pull it out either right before- or after a pitstop. Afterall he was all over Trulli in the latter stages of the race. I believe the car was indeed very close around Imola, but Schumacher was just a good deal quicker. Brazil may've been that second race but it's futile as his car broke down.

As I remember it, B.A.R's call on the timing of the stop prevented Sato from coming out ahead, but it could well be that my recollection of the events are wrong.

PS - you don't have my first post on the subject by any chance? =)

--------------------Edit - here it is:

"I think Button's career and his performances have been jo-joing quite a lot.It was as obvious as a dogs dangly bits that he had immense talent when he entered the sport in '00, more or less matching Ralf Schumacher and even out-qualifying him on the drivers-tracks.In '01 and '02 I believe the F1-lifestyle got in the way of concentrating on his own performance, and that coupled with a difficult car sort of "prevented" him from showing the big jump in performance all drivers have from the rookie season to the second season. Button poured cold water over himself some time into the '02-season and again it was evident he had real talent, as he pushed and sometimes beat Trulli.He built on that in '03 when he joined B.A.R and got all the attention from Richards. That put him in a comfy environment and he really maximised his potential I think. However I've always maintained that he was a bit flattered but the hopeless situation Villeneuve found himself in, as I'm sure the atmosphere he experienced put a stoppage to him extracting everything from himself. This is sports phsycolgy and it's fantasy thinking it doesn't come into the picture in F1 as well.'04 was a great season and yes, there were whispers in the paddock about an interest from Ferrari. Overall I think he performed fantastically, but was surprised to learn a year or two later that "rival team engineers had put the numbers and parametres into their sims and concluded that Button should have won atleast one or perhaps two races that year". Button absolutely smashed Sato but ironically it was Sato who came closest to winning a race that year, the US GP but the team pitted him at the wrong moment and denied him the top step of the podium.'05 was when Button showed himself as a very, very good one-lap qualifier, and he once again had a really good season.'06 came the first win and not surprisingly it came in the wet.The seasons coupled with Barrichello was on average pretty one-sided I think. Button always performed better than Barrichello by a healthy margin even if he got fewer points on the table in one season. (I put the average margin to the Schumacher-fans, saying Button's advantage on Barrichello is very close to what Schumacher had. Are they (almost) as good/fast? -they didn't like that, but in all fairness I've always said that cross comparing over different seasons and teams doesn't work. It is or could be a pointer though.)

...But, with regards to the battle between Button and Hamilton, I do think that the most dedicated Button-supporters needs to put the brakes on. It's too early to shout "wahey", 'cause the season isn't over till November."

Monaco! Surely that was one of them. I can imagine those rival engineers thinking the car had performance enough for Button to pull it out either right before- or after a pitstop. Afterall he was all over Trulli in the latter stages of the race.

Yeah he was, but that was also because of safety cars IIRC. Trulli got pole by quite a margin, with Alonso starting 3rd. The Renault were sick off the line that year, so it was no surprise they were leading after turn 1 with Button in 3rd. Then he got second as Alonso crashed, and at the end he was all over the back of Trulli indeed. Neither of them had won a GP yet so while Trulli was a bit careful not to make silly mistakes, Button was driving like he later claimed 'I would have rather crashed trying to win than finish second' but he got 2nd anyway.

They might see it as an opportunity based on Ferrari having lost their advantage, but Renault wasn't far away from BAR at any point during the season and Monaco just suited them perfectly, IMO.

As I remember it, B.A.R's call on the timing of the stop prevented Sato from coming out ahead, but it could well be that my recollection of the events are wrong.

Well, unfortunately I couldn't find any footage of it, but he indeed didn't pit under the safety car as some others did. BAR simply didn't make that call. What he did after that didn't really matter much anymore, as he still had 2 stops to go while Schumacher only had one. Even if he pitted though, I doubt he could've kept up with Schumacher. Any Sato fans here that want to prove me wrong, you're welcome.

The German GP in 2004 would have been Jenson's best shot at a win that year, but a Friday engine change meant he started 13th but ended up finishing 2nd and only 8 seconds behind Schumi. An impressive performance considering there weren't any safety car periods or rain.

The German GP in 2004 would have been Jenson's best shot at a win that year, but a Friday engine change meant he started 13th but ended up finishing 2nd and only 8 seconds behind Schumi. An impressive performance considering there weren't any safety car periods or rain.

Too true. It was probably his best performance of the season. And one of the first moments the majority perhaps noticed him as a better-than-mediocre driver.

Monza 2004? Ferrari squashed and stomped everyone that day. How could Button have ever won that?
Maybe Alonso could have done some more. But the Ferraris still had the pace to overtake anyone.
Only the weather put Button within a slim chance that day.

Perhaps the engineers meant Sepang. Montoya gave Schumacher a run for his money, on a weekend Michelin had worthy tyres, and the BAR was probably better than the Williams all year long.

One thing I have to say that Button is one of the drivers who has driven all kind of cars: dominant car (Brawn), good challenger (BAR 2004), higher mid-pack (Renault 2002), lower mid-pack (Benetton 2001 late season), and really bad ones (Honda 2007-08)

Monza 2004? Ferrari squashed and stomped everyone that day. How could Button have ever won that?Maybe Alonso could have done some more. But the Ferraris still had the pace to overtake anyone.Only the weather put Button within a slim chance that day.

Well, Button was leading the majority of the race. But then the last 15 laps or so Ferrari indeed squashed everybody and both passed Button with easy with a couple of laps to go.

Monza 2004? Ferrari squashed and stomped everyone that day. How could Button have ever won that?Maybe Alonso could have done some more. But the Ferraris still had the pace to overtake anyone.Only the weather put Button within a slim chance that day.

Perhaps the engineers meant Sepang. Montoya gave Schumacher a run for his money, on a weekend Michelin had worthy tyres, and the BAR was probably better than the Williams all year long.

I would say his best chances to win were in China and Brazil.

In Monza he got out into the lead and stayed there for quite a while but the Ferrari's were on another planet and eventually caught up and passed. In Germany, even though he was perhaps one of his best ever races.. I think Ferrari had enough pace in hand to fend him off without the grid drop.

Nobody seems to remember this race, it might have been his best chance of a win in 2004. In China Jenson qualified 3rd, two tenths off pole. The thing is, he was on a 2 stop strategy while Rubens and Kimi ahead were on for 3. He finished 2nd, 1 second behind Rubens at the flag.. maybe if BAR had gone agressive and taken pole, he would have been able to control the race in free air and find that extra 1 second needed for the win.

In Brazil, he retired early while ahead of race winner Montoya.. if he could have stayed there, its likely he'd have won the race.

2004? Ferrari squashed and stomped everyone that year. How could Button have ever won anything?

Edited for accuracy.

They only lost Monaco because Schumacher crashed behind the safety car and towards the end of the season, after the title was won, they really could not give a rat's arse about the rest of the season. Schumacher was having a laugh with some poor drives.

Nobody seems to remember this race, it might have been his best chance of a win in 2004. In China Jenson qualified 3rd, two tenths off pole. The thing is, he was on a 2 stop strategy while Rubens and Kimi ahead were on for 3. He finished 2nd, 1 second behind Rubens at the flag.. maybe if BAR had gone agressive and taken pole, he would have been able to control the race in free air and find that extra 1 second needed for the win.

Indeed, but he also made a hash of the start, which was the main reason for me.

Nobody seems to remember this race, it might have been his best chance of a win in 2004. In China Jenson qualified 3rd, two tenths off pole. The thing is, he was on a 2 stop strategy while Rubens and Kimi ahead were on for 3. He finished 2nd, 1 second behind Rubens at the flag.. maybe if BAR had gone agressive and taken pole, he would have been able to control the race in free air and find that extra 1 second needed for the win.

I thought 2 stopping was the optimal strategy there. Didn't Raikkonen actually switch his strategy in order to try and overtake Rubens? Instead he ended up behind Button in 3rd.He had a chance there, but that was only because Schumacher wasn't taking it seriously anymore after winning his title and so Rubens was suddenly the man to beat.

Germany 04 Jenson had an engine penalty and came from 14th to 2nd, Monaco 04 he was very close towards the end and Japan 03 I believe Jenson got close to winning to.

In many aspects Jenson's driving style reminds me of Alain Prost but his career of Mika Hakkinen.
Whereas Lewis Hamilton's driving style reminds me of Ayrton Sennna but his career kind of like Michael Schumacher.

Yes. Bridgestone inters were better than Michelins back then, and Button had enough fuel in the start not to make pit stop before the rain arrived. Therefore he was leading at one point before overtaken by Schumacher. Not sure if Räikkönen could have catched and passed him after rain stopped and it dried again but he certainly lost a podium.

Yes. Bridgestone inters were better than Michelins back then, and Button had enough fuel in the start not to make pit stop before the rain arrived. Therefore he was leading at one point before overtaken by Schumacher. Not sure if Räikkönen could have catched and passed him after rain stopped and it dried again but he certainly lost a podium.

Nah, that was just a 'lucky' tyre call, surely

Realistically I think Kimi would have caught him, but he had 3rd place in the bag. I remember a certain 'Honda - The power of dreams' advert on tv afterwards.

Where that car suddenly got the pace to be a front runner only to drop to the back of the field when it was discovered a year later is telling IMO.

Jenson was fast, but the car was illegal.

You, me both know thats a FAR too simplistic way of looking at things.

Firstly, there was no proof of the car running underweight on track. They said they had run a set amount of liquids to be able to run the engine on track, it was a system used by many teams at the time, and if you remember right, when BAR were forced to change their fuel system, other teams quickly did too ;-)

Secondly, you say they dropped pace because of this issue.

So tell me, what happened to Ferrari from 2004 to 2005? They went from being a very dominant car and team to struggling for podiums.

The reason the BAR 007 was no good was because of the tyres, and the truth was the team did not know why they worked the 03 (in testing) and 04 michelins so well. They had no idea. The BAR 005 was quick straight away on michelins, quicker than it was on the tyres it was designed for :s.

The truth was, the BAR 006 was an amazing car, they just didnt know why! That showed with a up-down development curve throughout 2004, and in 2005 it took them the first 1/3 of the season to get their car right. Once it was Button's performances were simply stunning. Of course not being in a top car, it wasnt shown as much, but certain qualifying laps such as Canada and Silverstone were amazing. His Silverstone lap was claimed to be one of the greatest laps ever (from Gil de Ferran). He got strong point's finishes race after race, he had aggressive races such as Turkey... Button's 2005 season was pretty impressive if you ask me but you need to understand why first.

As for lack of wins in 2004, well there were imo only two places he could have one. Germany, and Brazil. Both of which he was let down by the Honda lump. An engine failure before qualifying for Germany, and an engine failure during the race in Brazil. I believe Button was ahead of JPM in Brazil when his engine went. Button had the legs on both the Mclaren, and Williams that day as he later went on to say but thats F1. I chose his Germany performance because his pit strategy, and qualifying lap were simply amazing. It would have been a race long battle with the Ferrari, but I see no reason why he could not have taken the fight to Schumacher that day.

Hamilton and Button at McLaren are like Clark and Hill at Lotus in the late 1960s. Hamilton is one of the greatest drivers, if not THE greatest, of his generation. Button is not great but is very, very,very, very good.

I think Macca should try and keep them together for at least the next five years.

Hamilton and Button at McLaren are like Clark and Hill at Lotus in the late 1960s. Hamilton is one of the greatest drivers, if not THE greatest, of his generation. Button is not great but is very, very,very, very good.

I think Macca should try and keep them together for at least the next five years.

Was re-watcing China 06 last night ... JB went from 7th to 4th in two laps right at the end of the race when it started to rain again... including a double overtake aided by backmarkers on the final lap... it was sensational.

I never really paid very close attention to JB before he started driving for Macca (I only really focus on how the macca drivers are doing in live races - and I might catch up with the others on a rewatch) so I missed that he is seriously talented.

When he gets it together he can be really special ... but most of the time he does not do full justice to his talent.

...I wonder if he has issues motivating himself when things are not set up nicely for him.

Don't see Lewis signing a long term contract like 5 yearsFor Button it's the best he could get for the rest of his career (so he would sign immediately) but probably not for Lewis

The grass is always greener... perhaps Lewis will want to "go out on his own" and leave his racing family, but it could be a tough lesson if he ends up watching Jenson notch up that 2nd WDC in a McLaren.

The grass is always greener... perhaps Lewis will want to "go out on his own" and leave his racing family, but it could be a tough lesson if he ends up watching Jenson notch up that 2nd WDC in a McLaren.

Lewis is at his peak of his careerno driver will sign a long term contract thereeven with the new engine regulations for 2013IMO Button won't get another offer like this from Macca from any other team.So it's understandable that he is more than happy to stay there, while Lewis has to make some important considerations for his futureBTW if Lewis leaves after 2012 , McLaren will sign some other top driver Button won't be enough to fullfill their expectations

I do think McLaren suits JB incredibly well. Especially under Whitmarsh. The quality of the support, car preparation, the culture of loyalty within the team, all make a big difference to him.

I have a slight doubt about how he'd have got on with Ron, who tends to favour more aggressive drivers, but I wonder how his career would have gone if he'd come in at 22 instead of 20, say, done a couple of development years in Jordan perhaps, before joining McLaren, and stayed out of the clutches off the ruthless Frank and Flav, and the useless Nick Fry?

Lewis is at his peak of his careerno driver will sign a long term contract thereeven with the new engine regulations for 2013IMO Button won't get another offer like this from Macca from any other team.So it's understandable that he is more than happy to stay there, while Lewis has to make some important considerations for his futureBTW if Lewis leaves after 2012 , McLaren will sign some other top driver Button won't be enough to fullfill their expectations

Like who?

I dont think there are too many in F1 who are sure to beat JB in the same car.