LFR is one of the worst things that happened to WoW in my opinion. It just spoon feeds people free loot and makes people feel special because they are doing a 25man hc dungeon thinking they are actually raiding. Dumbing down the content will not make players any better it just promotes lazyness on most players parts. They should remove LFR altogether bunching 25 random people up and expecting them to all work good together will never happen.

This again. First, I seriously doubt it makes anyone feel special. Second, so what if it did??? What do you care that someone else gets some enjoyment out of a game that they're paying $15 a month for? That is, after all the intent of a game: to bring a little joy to your existence. What is it with this misguided notion that a game should somehow mimic real life and "punish" players for not playing it enough or for not playing it to some arbitrary standard? That's not a game; that's a job. Dumbing down the content so that players can finish it in a half hour is the opposite of promoting laziness. It helps players get their gaming fix quickly so that they can move on to other, more productive pursuits. The guys who insist that everyone should spend a minimum of two hours a night in the game in addition to devoting hours of study to raids/rotations/specs are the lazy ones because instead of making substantial contributions to society they're immersing themselves in a virtual world that ultimately has zero impact on anyone's life. It's ironic when people refer to casual players as "lazy" because they don't want to spend as much time raiding as an actual raider does.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

Well they seem to think the 10 man guilds will magically adapt and grow to 20. *shrug* I'm less optimistic about the realities of that happening then they are. Especially coming off a long break between SoO and WoD. We'll see though.

The people that are serious about heroic raiding will do things like change factions just to be a troll, so I think they will find ways to get together and continue to kill difficult pixel dragons. I don't think the change in size will even be a bump in the road.

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Originally Posted by Siniwelho

Yes, you probably still have to kill the bosses.

However "tourist mode" may indicate that there won't be any need to nerf LFR ever again.

Blizzard can't resist overtuning things so yes there will be plenty of nerfs. To everything. Forever.

This again. First, I seriously doubt it makes anyone feel special. Second, so what if it did??? What do you care that someone else gets some enjoyment out of a game that they're paying $15 a month for? That is, after all the intent of a game: to bring a little joy to your existence. What is it with this misguided notion that a game should somehow mimic real life and "punish" players for not playing it enough or for not playing it to some arbitrary standard? That's not a game; that's a job. Dumbing down the content so that players can finish it in a half hour is the opposite of promoting laziness. It helps players get their gaming fix quickly so that they can move on to other, more productive pursuits. The guys who insist that everyone should spend a minimum of two hours a night in the game in addition to devoting hours of study to raids/rotations/specs are the lazy ones because instead of making substantial contributions to society they're immersing themselves in a virtual world that ultimately has zero impact on anyone's life. It's ironic when people refer to casual players as "lazy" because they don't want to spend as much time raiding as an actual raider does.

Most video games are entirely about overcoming arbitrary challenges set by the designer. And its weird that bad players who as you say just want to finish their raids as quickly as possible don't invest a tiny amount of time finding out how to improve their dps so the raids would finish faster. Not to mention helping out your fellow players. But they don't, because they're ultimately selfish people.

Most video games are entirely about overcoming arbitrary challenges set by the designer. And its weird that bad players who as you say just want to finish their raids as quickly as possible don't invest a tiny amount of time finding out how to improve their dps so the raids would finish faster. Not to mention helping out your fellow players. But they don't, because they're ultimately selfish people.

There are no human ethical or moral questions answered by how someone kills computer dragons on the internet. You people sound like psychopaths when you act as if there are.

Mod-note: Please don't use such a big text size, makes you post almost appear like spam.

The people that are serious about heroic raiding will do things like change factions just to be a troll, so I think they will find ways to get together and continue to kill difficult pixel dragons. I don't think the change in size will even be a bump in the road.

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Blizzard can't resist overtuning things so yes there will be plenty of nerfs. To everything. Forever.

Well i rather have overtuned things that needs nerfs than the other way around Things should be hard lfr aint hard ppl are just lazy and stupid...

Most video games are entirely about overcoming arbitrary challenges set by the designer. And its weird that bad players who as you say just want to finish their raids as quickly as possible don't invest a tiny amount of time finding out how to improve their dps so the raids would finish faster. Not to mention helping out your fellow players. But they don't, because they're ultimately selfish people.

Most games also include tips on how to improve your DPS inside the game. WoW conveniently leaves that responsibility up to third party sites. Furthermore, the optimal DPS rotation may vary from fight to fight and often varies from patch to patch. You call it "investing a tiny amount of time," but it's not really an investment when it's obsolete a few weeks later, and it's also not a tiny amount of time when you have to repeat the process again and again every patch. Also, I agree with you that most video games are entirely about arbitrary challenges. However, most video games also offer multiple difficulty modes ranging from "I want to sleep walk through this game so I can passively enjoy that story" to "Dear God when will the the anguish stop?!?" They leave it to the individual players to decide which experience is right for them.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

Perfect, and for those people who can't get in due to 'low ilevel'. Unless they're willing to put a group together, having below 530 iLVL is low now.

Although I agree that iLvl 530 requirement is over the top, it's not that hard to get there really...

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Originally Posted by Tamerlane2

Most video games are entirely about overcoming arbitrary challenges set by the designer. And its weird that bad players who as you say just want to finish their raids as quickly as possible don't invest a tiny amount of time finding out how to improve their dps so the raids would finish faster. Not to mention helping out your fellow players. But they don't, because they're ultimately selfish people.

That's what WoW has, arbitrary challenges. They just created several levels for a diversity of players, you just pick the one that is challenging enough for you (or easy enough). People have different expectations from a game.
Some want to be challenged, others want to be entertained, others want to experience the story etc. The game offers all of this. Just pick the one you like to do and stop complaining about what others do, they are not taking away anything from you....

Most games also include tips on how to improve your DPS inside the game. WoW conveniently leaves that responsibility up to third party sites.

Even worse, achieving good DPS in practice requires things like reconfigiring the UI, playing with keybinds, and installing add-ons to track cooldowns. The complexity of all this is WAY out of whack with what most players find enjoyable, I suspect.

(BTW, have you tried to configure Weak Auras? Yeah, that's totally suitable for the average player.)

This is one of the fundamental design misfeatures of WoW.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
1955 At the first Atoms for Peace meeting in Geneva, Homi Babba predicts that fusion will be in commercial use within two decades.

Most games also include tips on how to improve your DPS inside the game. WoW conveniently leaves that responsibility up to third party sites. Furthermore, the optimal DPS rotation may vary from fight to fight and often varies from patch to patch. You call it "investing a tiny amount of time," but it's not really an investment when it's obsolete a few weeks later, and it's also not a tiny amount of time when you have to repeat the process again and again every patch. Also, I agree with you that most video games are entirely about arbitrary challenges. However, most video games also offer multiple difficulty modes ranging from "I want to sleep walk through this game so I can passively enjoy that story" to "Dear God when will the the anguish stop?!?" They leave it to the individual players to decide which experience is right for them.

The game has a Core Abilities tab, and very detailed tooltips. If you follow the instructions in that tab, you're probably 80% of the way towards your optimal dps. It also has the Proving Grounds, which helps train you up as well. The game doesn't leave you totally clueless anymore.

You don't need 100 or even 95% of your optimal dps for LFR difficulty. But for a max level player its certainly reasonable to ask for something close to it.

Maybe more people would prefer LFR to be a complete snoozefest, I'll leave it to Blizzard to decide what's more popular.

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Originally Posted by velde046

That's what WoW has, arbitrary challenges. They just created several levels for a diversity of players, you just pick the one that is challenging enough for you (or easy enough). People have different expectations from a game.
Some want to be challenged, others want to be entertained, others want to experience the story etc. The game offers all of this. Just pick the one you like to do and stop complaining about what others do, they are not taking away anything from you....

And its unfair for a player who is incapable of managing LFR's current dps/healing requirements to join LFR anyway and expect a bunch of strangers to carry him/her to success regardless. Because by causing wipes, they are taking away from other player's fun, and that's not very nice. LFR is not a single player environment with 24 NPCs.

The game has a Core Abilities tab, and very detailed tooltips. If you follow the instructions in that tab, you're probably 80% of the way towards your optimal dps. It also has the Proving Grounds, which helps train you up as well. The game doesn't leave you totally clueless anymore.

The game provides a nice tutorial at the very beginning. Unfortunately you have maybe three skills at the very beginning, and two of them aren't even going to be relevant to your end-game rotation. When you level up your skills are given to you in the same window as your combat experience and quest turn-ins. Blink and you'll miss them. If you've kept your main bar open it will add new skills there, but with no explanation of what they do or how to use them. If you mouse over them you'll get a brief description, but no mention is made of how they can potentially interact with glyphs or other skills. So maybe you're not totally clueless, but there is still some research to be done.

Let's say that I completely agree with you and that the game adequately explains your main skills as you acquire them. Most new players won't know what to reforge or how. The game fails to explain hit rating and expertise. If you mouse over those stats in your character window you'll see them, but who does that naturally without prompting? It doesn't help that hit rating is mostly useless outside of raids and dungeons. Most creatures you encounter are your level and will require half the hit rating that you need in raids. Missing one out of 20 times is also not going to be very noticeable in fights that involve 2-15 hits. I'm pretty sure this is a big part of the reason that they're doing away with those stats entirely. It's crazy that I, knowing what I was doing, reforged just about everything into hit and expertise when I first dinged 90. Now that my ilevel is 16 points higher than when I started running LFR with my paladin I find myself going exactly the opposite way and reforging all my hit into other stats because I now have way more than I need. In only 16 ilevels I've gone from 33k DPS to 100k DPS in long fights. That's completely insane and adds to this misconception that new players are just "bad." New players also don't know to get the Crystal of Insanity from My Little Panda Adventure Island. Heck, most old players don't know about it either. It's a reusable flask that adds 500 to all your stats, lasts an hour, and has a 15 minute cooldown. That's the equivalent of a tier's worth of gear.

Don't get me wrong. I like that experience and knowledge given you an advantage in the game, but I think this advantage should be expected of Flex+ groups, not LFR groups.

Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows

People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.

Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13