... the next Sonos update in early April will turn off the CR100 connection -- unless you decide you don't want any updates at all. (Make sure you set that up in advance -- if you accept the update, you can't undo it and go back to using the old controller.)

That means if you want to keep on using a device you're happy with, you have to give up all the new features on all your Sonos speakers.

The company says its primary concern is the age of the lithium ion batteries in the controllers; although in that case an official device recall would be better than an update that stops them working - and a battery replacement scheme would handle the problem just as well.

Although the controller is old (Sonos stopped selling the CR100 in 2009) it is still perfectly functional for many users. However, according to a forum posting explaining the options these users will have to choose between the CR100 and the functionality of the rest of their system:

... opting not to update means you will not receive any new features or future security patches for your entire system – not just the CR100. For example, being on an unsupported version means that you might lose connectivity to music services, as is already the case for Google Play Music on the CR100. It is necessary to configure your system in advance to avoid future updates. Any update applied to the firmware and/or to the app, even unintentionally, is irreversible.

I Feel Their PainI Feel Their Pain(Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 12 2018, @12:05PM
(27 children)

I understand where both the devs and the consumers are coming from there. It's a pain in the ass to keep updating code for ancient hardware (when it's even possible) but if I buy something I expect it to keep working as well as when I bought it until it physically breaks.

As for the bean counters? Fuck them. Customer satisfaction is what gets you strong long-term profits, which are worth a lot more than a few years of good quarterly profits and then nothing because everybody is pissed off at you.

--"Buzzy, you're probably the dumbest person I've ever encountered. Well, there is aristarchus, so make it 2nd dumbest."

This kind of horse-shit is why I am very leery of spending money for the latest technology.

If I do not understand it, or worse, having to agree to remain ignorant of how it works, I really question my sanity about actually spending money for the thing. Do I really need this thing? Are they flat downright telling me they have already planned to be a pain-in-the-ass, and want me to legally acknowledge?

I do not need any more problems. If I can't fix it, why do I even want it?

Its just another thing in my life sucking the life force right out of me. I need it as much as another mother-in-law.

Oh, incidentally, about those lithium batteries... I have gone to quite a bit of trouble to make sure everything I buy is built around "18650" lithium ion batteries... so that if I do have a problem, I can change it out. My laptop uses them, my power tools use them, and every flashlight I have uses them. ( Ultrafire WF-502B ). I also have power scissors and little powered screwdrivers powered by single 18650 cells. The main reason I chose that particular design was they were assembled with screws, which could be removed should I need to replace the cell.

I understand the importance of cell matching, so I will go ahead and buy laptop packs and Ryobi packs premade, with no plans to fix should they go out... but I know they are full of 18650, so when any of them malfunction, I open them up and have plenty of 18650 for other things.

I am looking for a shaver that uses them... also a good shortwave radio... the three-cell TECSUN is damned close... just wish these people would redesign the battery compartments so it will take three AAA cells in a holder, or an 18650 cell.

I simply can't see why these devices can't be made so that the case can be opened and the cells replaced. I can understand them not wanting liability, so I certainly do not expect instructions on how to do this ( as giving someone instructions probably creates a liability )... but its obvious to anyone who does electronic work what to do. Lithium batteries can be dangerous if mistreated, and that's probably a reason why manufacturers are being such a pain in the ass, but planned obsolescence is probably the main reason manufacturers seem to go out of their way to make high-priced junk.

I noted the battery in my cheapie BLU phone is replaceable. The expensive name-brand status-symbol phone does not. The battery thing was a big plus in my deciding which phone I was going to buy.

I keep seeing these battery powered thingies in the stores. I always have a WF-502 with me. I am always seeing if the thingie can use an 18650.

A "raid" on a battery recycling bin at WalMart several years ago has given me more 18650 cells than I will use in a lifetime. I had a bunch of NiCads I had brought in and asked the manager if I could take some of the laptop batteries, and he saw no problem with that, so in went those NiCads ( I flat do not like NiCads ), and out came the battery packs I knew would be filled with 18650.

AliExpress even has big battery holders already set up with charger/ balancers to make energy banks.

--"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

I resisted moving to those 18650's for quite awhile. When I finally got my first 2-cell flashlight that uses them, I decided to move EVERYTHING to them. No more rechargeable AA or AAA. My multimeters are the only things left - one uses AAA another uses a 9-volt, and I still don't know what the ampmeter has in it. I like having everything interchangeable. I don't like the first cheap 18650's that I got with the flashlights - I now have all Panasonic. The advantage of "standardizing" on one battery is just beautiful!

You ain't kiddin' about the beauty of having a standard container of electrical power. One size fits all, but some may take several to do the job.

I knew a few years ago when we had a power outage, and I needed a flashlight. I went to the "emergency" kit I had so carefully prepared a few years ago, and retrieved one of the three D-cell flashlights and batteries I had so carefully packed. None of the alkaline D cells were any good.

I had already torn apart an old laptop battery, and was wondering about the six little cylindrical cells I found in it... never had seen anything like them before, but they did have one number stamped on their labels... 18650 ... so I fed this number to Google to find out what it was. At that time, I did not know that was an industry - standard cell and lots of stuff had them in it. More excited, I went to AliExpress and typed the same number in, and it gave me lots of cells and things that used them. Wasn't all that expensive either. I had seen these "tactical" flashlights in the local electronics store selling in the neighborhood of $100, and considered them economically useless... but now seeing extremely similar flashlights selling for less than $10, I bought two dozen of them. And got all the chargers for them as well... you know, those handy USB in/USB out ones. Handiest things I have bought in a helluva long time. So I use a few, and have the rest in a drawer. Even the dollar store has those plug-in adapters to make USB power from cigarette lighter power. I knew right then I would never have another day of my life stymied by dead flashlights.

No sense even keeping flashlights in the earthquake kit any more. No more discovering $20 worth of Alkaline D cells floating in a pool of corrosion right when I needed them. I can always find some source of electricity to charge an 18650... car or solar panel if line power is out.

During the last power outage at night at work, I was johnny-on-the-spot with my drawer of flashlights... I had enough for everyone there. All the other "backup" lighting had failed, but every one of those WF-502's fired right up. Gotta keep the cells somewhere, so I bought extra flashlights just to hold the cells, as I know they are lithium, and should one ever get out of control, I wanted it doing so in a sturdy aluminum container, and storing the cells in a flashlight keeps them from shorting out should the container of cells get jostled "just so"... I have seen damn near every D cell I have ever had leak.... I have not seen an 18650 leak yet. Even my NiCd's would grow all sorts of corrosive fuzz around the top seal in a few years - and were always dead when I really needed 'em. The lithiums seem happy sitting around for years.

I also bought power banks that use multiple cells, so that: 1-I can easily keep them charged and 2- I have a place to store them, and 3- I have a source of substantial USB and 12V power to operate other things should the need arise. I even have thingies that actually can drain enough current out of these things to start a car - I bought two to start my diesel van. Just in case. Glow plugs need a lot of power before I even try to crank that big old IDI engine.

It is quite a relief to know just what my assets are and what options I have in the event an emergency arises. I flat do not want to be like those Hurricane Sandy people who had useless solar arrays because their grid-tie inverters would not power up until they had line power to sync to. If I know I can get 16V at 5 Amps from each solar panel, then I use variable input DC power converters to keep car batteries topped off, and use that.

Its all part of being prepared.

If we do have a natural disaster, I want to have something to trade... as everyone has their special thing they do better than anyone else.

Mine is making sure we can keep our stuff powered up, no matter what.

Even my soldering iron will work off my Ryobi power tool batteries or my van battery, and I can charge my Ryobi packs and my 18650 cells in the van. If you haven't been recently, go to Home Depot to see quite an impressive array of things that run on Ryobi power packs. Don't buy their damned cheap incandescent flashlight though. It puzzles me why they even made the damned thing. Highly inefficient, you don't get much light out of it at all! First thing I did with the one I got as a premium in a package discount was strip out the light bulb and put in a little USB power downconverter so I can pull USB power from a Ryobi pack. ( Some of those little "car chargers" are rated 12-24 volts, the Ryobi is around 18 Volt. A little work with epoxy and stiff plastic netted me a replacement "lens assembly" that had a USB jack in it, not a light bulb. And a pair of banana jacks that permit my soldering iron assembly direct access to the 18 volt battery rail.)

--"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

Re:I Feel Their Pain(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday February 13 2018, @03:10PM

Yeah, my flashlights were marketed as "tactical flashlights". They have a stupid serrated end, that will probably cut a man's throat, if you were to put it to that use. To me, it's just stupid. I love the LED light. A typical 3 D-cell professional flashlight, like the cops carry, will kinda light up the side of a building, 50 to 75 yards away. This little flashlight that I carry in my hip pocket will actually light up the side of a building in the same conditions. Better yet, I can focus it on something on that building. The door, a window, a hole where a tree branch went through the roof or wall - whatever. Let the crazies salivate over that "tactical" bullshit - I have a working light that outshines anything I've ever owned, with the exception of auto headlights, or a searchlight.

When I bought my first one, I took it to work, and several people asked where I got it. I told them, "Ebay" but no one seems to be capable of searching Ebay for themselves. I ended up ordering six of the same lights, and sold them all to coworkers. I ordered another dozen, and sold five of those. The rest are cached in my vehicle, in my toolboxes, and in my desks.

Re:I Feel Their Pain(Score: 1) by anubi on Tuesday February 13 2018, @07:08AM

Yep... troll.... but your message is loud and clear. We keep buying crap. So they keep making crap. And getting our money.

Not everyone out there is a Soylentil. Most of us have the technical acumen of knowing crap when we see it.

But there are an awful lot of people who are swayed by presentation more than substance. And those guys keep being taken to the cleaners... over and over and over. And they keep funding all this crap.

I have said it before, and I will say it again..... for some people, presentation is everything. Even shit will be received as a delicacy - if correctly presented.

And they end up with all the shit.

And our landfills overflow with shit.

While "businessmen" grin all the way to the bank with the funds given by people gullible enough to fall for their sales pitch.

If one thinks education is expensive, try ignorance. And I do not mean "university". I mean dig into things youself - ask questions - be curious as to how your stuff works. Don't delude yourself into thinking someone else is going to try to guarantee you a happy life. You are the captain of your ship, and if you don't know how your engine works, you are gonna be in for a helluva lotta trips to the cleaners.

--"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

It's a pain in the ass to keep updating code for ancient hardware (when it's even possible)

That's not an excuse to release the source code. If there are patents, remove the tainted code and provide a link to the patent description (so others can write/host an implementation in a country that does not do in these kinds of silliness).

Nobody should be allowed to keep patents and copyrights on things they refuse to sell or service. If you want respect for patent and copyright laws, there must be compulsory licensing. Can't have one without the other.

The copyrights would be solved by open sourcing it (putting it under a FOSS license). Patents could be held by some other party, where the manufacturer of the device only has a license to use it, and can't give it away, even if they wanted to.

No, wrong, The idea of compulsory licensing is to fill a demand. The owners of the copyrights/patents are entitled to a royalty, not control. The shortages and crippled technology we suffer are because of present day law allowing control of use and distribution.

Re:I Feel Their Pain(Score: 1) by anubi on Tuesday February 13 2018, @07:17AM

My feeling is if they do not disclose how it works, it not patentable. Its a "trade secret".

My own take on it ( IANAL!!!) is that a condition of patent should be a disclosure of how it works. No disclosure - no patent. Simple as that.

Should I patent putting ink on paper? Now show me the exact pattern of ink on paper, and copyright THAT. But you have to show me the book in print first. And grant you the copyright on that particular pattern of ink on paper.

--"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

How hard would it have been to just freeze the code? You could even put up a disclaimer saying there's no more patches, even for security, so it's truly a "use at your own risk" device.

I've got a couple of embedded projects at work that are in a "mature" state. The code is not really being actively maintained, but we're still building new devices because the code doesn't really need to be touched unless we find a bug. Even then, the few bugs we've found were related to EOL'd minor components (for instance, it's hard to get a 2GB µSD Card these days...) so they only needed to be applied to new devices, not backported to all existing devices. If someone really finds a major bug I can go back and pull up all of the code and fix it (after taking a few days to figure out what idiot wrote the code...and remember it was me...), but otherwise these projects are just coasting along until we either find a better solution or a major component becomes EOL'd and we're forced to find a better solution.

We're talking a "smart" appliance here. Google or some other external API you use a lot would update and break compatibility and everything that uses it would need updated. This is precisely why I hate syndicating our headlines to Twitter.

--"Buzzy, you're probably the dumbest person I've ever encountered. Well, there is aristarchus, so make it 2nd dumbest."

But since this is just the remote control, they have 100% control over the API between it and the speaker. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to freeze the code for the controller.

More concerning is the whole battery thing Sonos threw into the discussion. Either it's pure FUD to frighten people into throwing the controller away OR they made a device that turns out to be a firebomb and they should be on the hook to replace the controller with one using a safer battery formulation (there are a number of those that are interchangeable with the old Li-ION batteries).

Re:I Feel Their Pain(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 13 2018, @05:58AM

We've currently got about three hundred of them but I'd keep supporting it if we only had a couple dozen. Every person who Rs TFA is someone I might get to argue about TFA with. Which is why I do all this in the first place.

Honestly though, the Twitter syndicating code is much, much less insanity inducing than the RSS/ATOM code. The only bad part about it is Twitter is absolutely going to change the API and break it again sooner or later.

--"Buzzy, you're probably the dumbest person I've ever encountered. Well, there is aristarchus, so make it 2nd dumbest."

Sounds like bad software design if you have to keep updating the code for something like a controller. Makes it look like someone got sloppy and scattered controller-specific code throughout the codebase rather than putting in some sort of abstraction layer/API. Of course that may be down to the beancounters still. Sounds like (fr)agile development strikes again.

Re:I Feel Their Pain(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday February 12 2018, @02:10PM

Without sufficient demand from the collective, it just won't happen. You have a similar story about Linux support in Razor laptops. Nothing moves until you get a rise out of the crowd.

It is more likely that providing a little extra customer satisfaction (you know, like seat space in the economy section) will tank your stock [dallasnews.com]. You gotta abuse the customer to the maximum extent possible to look good in today's market. It's a fine balance to get it just right [youtube.com].

I bought a couple of IP cameras about 6 years ago. One was a cheap, low res PTZ that I could access from within the home network, and potentially open a hole in my firewall if I wanted to get at it from outside. I didn't use it much, and it died after 3 years of electrical failure. Another was a cheap fixed camera that came with a web based recording and free access service, it was only accessible via the cloud. It was pretty cool when it worked, but I didn't use it much, and after about 3 years I fatigued from constant cloud-access software updates and let it effectively die. For all I know, it still works if I plug it in and spend a couple of hours deciphering how to access it now that the company was bought out and "improved" services made available - but, at any moment it could die from forced shutdown by the company.

I have very mixed emotions about cloud based gadgets, they run about 95% hate and 5% love... I love the "ease of use" and some of the more powerful features offered, but I truly despise the subscription based pricing models on top of having to pay for the hardware up front. I have a garage full of junk I've accumulated over the last 30+ years, and most of it I can pull out of a box, dust it off, and use it just like I could when I put it in the box years ago. And none of that stuff is charging me a monthly fee. Not so with "subscription based" devices. Now, whether I would actually be happier if that garage burned to the ground and I just went and bought what I need, when I need it? I suppose that could be true, until the zombie apocalypse happens, or, during post-hurricane strandings, which do last for a couple of days.

The devs? Not in the slightest. If you're going to do anything, push an update that puts a notice on power up, "This device is no longer supported and is not receiving security updates, and may no longer work with other Sonos components. Visit sonos.com to find the latest hardware. Your clicking OK indicates you understand and agree." There is *absolutely no reason* to brick a device other than rent-seeking.

Besides... Killing my machine is THEFT, period. Maybe BAIT and SWITCH... You took my money and gave me a BRICK.

It is easy to block the device from getting access to update itself. Hell, MS has done that with their Windows Update tool. These guys are another APPLE, take way your use of your product. GM and FORD cannot even do that.

Re:"Smart" is relative to the user.Re:"Smart" is relative to the user.(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday February 12 2018, @02:44PM
(4 children)

That we have a tendency to spend hours automating something that saves seconds mostly. If you go OSS with it and count the seconds it saves everyone, that's a good deal. If you only count the time it saves you, not so much.

--"Buzzy, you're probably the dumbest person I've ever encountered. Well, there is aristarchus, so make it 2nd dumbest."

Re:"Smart" is relative to the user.Re:"Smart" is relative to the user.(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Monday February 12 2018, @03:03PM
(1 child)

It depends how often you spend seconds on something, and how much you have to maintain the automation in question.

If, for instance, it saves you 15 seconds every hour, and took you 30 minutes to come up with it, and there's no maintenance effort, then you're in the net-positive range in a couple of weeks. Not a big win, but still nice. Plus it's one less thing to think about, which means you don't need to spend the 15 minutes or so context-switching.

Re:"Smart" is relative to the user.(Score: 2) by WizardFusion on Monday February 12 2018, @04:29PM

I disagree. I have spent quite a lot of time (months) on some PowerShell scripts that take server QA checks from 2 hours down to 60 seconds. A massive saving. The value add comes when you can now order a QA check of an environment and compare it against last months. Without my automation, this would never have been possible in our mutli-tenanted environment.

Re:"Smart" is relative to the user.(Score: 3, Interesting) by TheRaven on Monday February 12 2018, @04:36PM

It depends a lot on the complexity of the thing versus the off-the-shelf implementations. I moved to using an off-the-shelf WiFi AP a year or so ago, because the one my ISP provides is fast, has sensible firewall config, almost sensible DHCP config, and is less effort to maintain than the one I was using. For music in my living room and bedroom, I use musicpd, one on a NAS and one on a RPi (running Linux, because FreeBSD doesn't support the RPi3's audio output yet). The most complex part of configuring those was running the speaker cable and the result means that my partner and I can control the music from any of our laptops or phones and the RPi can mount the read-only NFS share containing all of my music and so can treat its flash as read-only most of the time. Without anything going to some random service that might go away at any time and is probably harvesting personal information while it's there.

We have a couple of older Sonos speakers, which we use to play music from our NAS. Since they released their newest product (the one with a microphone, that supports Alexa, etc.) we have been bombarded with updates. Generally, you can't ignore them, because the system often stops working until you update.

This seems to be driven by the automatic updates to the Android app. Totally irritating.

I am on an older version of the firmware (7.3) because I disagreed with them collecting all my information. I block all traffic to *.sonos.com with my Pi-Hole.the downside to this is that I can no longer use the android app as a reinstall needs telemetry access. The Windows client works fine for what I use it for.

I have two CR100's (got them over 10 years ago for the non-techy wife). I replaced their batteries about a year ago, and I'm miffed that they are being bricked, but not surprised because Sonos is a money grabbing POS company and I would never buy a product from them again. [Side story: I used to live in Santa Barbara, where they are headquartered. I walked over to their office to get a docking cradle for the CR100s because, they are a separate purchase, and I was basically told to fuck off.] I would sell you mine, but they won't do you much good for long, Sonos has said "The customer can choose to acknowledge the policy, or can accept that over time their product may cease to function" [extremetech.com]. So, your device running the older firmware may get bricked this summer (dunno, if you are router blocking all traffic to their website, maybe not, but it may only take one slip-up and bam!, gone).

One of the purposes of an EULA is to convince you that you've signed away rights that the local laws don't allow to be signed away.

Don't believe the EULA. They'll throw in anything that might convince you that you can't stop them. Perhaps it's right, but it doesn't need to be, and often isn't.

OTOH, also don't believe that just because it's abusive, it can't be enforced. Sometimes it can. And it differs by locality. If you really need to know, check with a local lawyer...preferably one who specialized in that kind of issue...and remember, the lawyer can only give you their opinion as to how the judge is likely to decide.

I, personally, prefer to refuse to purchase items with abusive EULAs...but one can't avoid them when purchasing necessities with limited suppliers. Just read the ER EULA some time.

Very possible since Apple just recently got in trouble over deliberately weakening the batteries in older iphones.

To put what they're doing in physical terms - Apple went in and replaced the batteries in everyone's older phones with weaker batteries. This company is rounding up everyone's old device and smashing them with a hammer.

Re:Smart Speakers are an oxymoron(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 12 2018, @08:01PM

This.If Google fucks up with Chromecast audio I'll loose $35 per device on my network but I'll still have a fully functional set of speakers. BTW Does anyone know why the Audios are out of stock ? Are they phased out ?

Re:Smart Speakers are an oxymoronRe:Smart Speakers are an oxymoron(Score: 5, Insightful) by Joe Desertrat on Monday February 12 2018, @11:33PM
(1 child)

I used to be an early adopter of technology, but now I am starting to feel that everything new should be scrutinized very carefully before use. Part of it could just be me getting older, but increasingly it seems that there is far too much change of functional devices for no functional reason. Anything labeled "smart" these days is generally meant for people who are the exact opposite. I cannot think of any reason for any appliance in my house to be connected to the internet and "smart". I believe the potential losses in privacy and control far outweigh any potential gains in convenience, especially as I had no need of any such "conveniences" before they were offered to us. I still feel though, that I need my privacy and ability to use things I've purchased as I see fit. I suppose I should start going outside now and yelling at kids to get off my lawn...