Dial Test Indicators

"Attached to the chain is an adjustable, dovetail indicator holder.
Basically you have a universal means to attach an indicator to any

diameter by strapping the chain around it."
Thanks for the explanation.
"One feature I'm going to add is an interchangeable shaft for chucking.
Then I can just turn up a bunch of different diameters for situations
where there is a limited number of collets around."
Excellent idea!
I'm glad Bottlebob started this thread. Wish alt.machines.cnc had more
threads like this as I've certainly learned a lot in this one.
Jon Banquer
Phoenix, Arizona

I'll second that.
Unka George
(George McDuffee)
...and at the end of the fight is a tombstone white
with the name of the late deceased, and
the epitaph drear:
A Fool lies here, who tried to hustle the East.
Rudyard Kipling The Naulahka, ch. 5, heading (1892).

I like your "Zero holder". I have never seen one up close and personal
until now. I'm at a friends shop and he has one. Seems like a great
idea so I'm borrowing it to try out.
Jon "The Jew" Banquer
Phoenix, Arizona

Jon:
I think the real commercial holder is called a "Zero-it". But like I
said in my homepage caption I bought a "real" one years after I made my
own, and it was total junk. It seems PM has posted the plans to made
one in another post to this thread.

I use mine virtually every day. And I have about 5 other types of
indicator sweepers.

I bought a Brown & Sharpe/Tesa 7031-3, 0-15-0 DTI, from R.L Stephens
in 1978, and loved it ever since. It's survived 2 tool box thefts,
because it's my favorite measuring instrument & fortunately always
brought it home, if I needed it, to use in my little home hobby shop.
Didn't have enough money left over for an Indicol holder, and the
Chinese knock-offs weren't around yet, so I just made my own. Keep it
in the box & never, NEVER lend a DTI out...they're just too fragile.
It's kinda like "how many ways can Burger King screw up a cup of
coffee" as far as the possibilities for destruction...ok, there's
turning the spindle on while indicating in a vise, or rapiding into a
fixture, or dropping it, etc.

To All:
Here is a breakdown on indicator quality for a number of different
brands from Long Island Indicator Service.
=====================================================================http://longislandindicator.com/indicator.html
Dial Test Indicators
In Brief:
The best dial test indicators are Swiss made. You have 4 commonly
available brand names to choose from: Bestest, Compac, Interapid,
Tesatast. All of these are made by the same manufacturer in Switzerland.
There's nothing better on the market, in our opinion.
The worst dial test indicators are Chinese, Japanese and - sorry to say
- American. We'll let you figure out the manufacturers in question.
Notes on Manufacturers
Accupro this vanity dial appears on indicators made in China and
Germany. The Chinese indicators are worthless. The German indicators are
the Puppitast series made by Mahr-Federal.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service (German made only)
* Sales: catalogs
* Parts: from Mahr-Federal for the German made models only
* Information: see Mahr listing, below
Alina (Switzerland) indicators were made by Compac until the mid-1960's.
They are no longer available and spare parts are exhausted. We can still
repair Alina Model 88 but nothing else.
* Repairs: not possible (except Model 88)
* Sales: discontinued
* Parts: not available
* Information: Long Island Indicator Service
Baker (China) indicators are cheap throw-aways for which parts are not
available. We have been told that they are somewhat longer lived than
other Chinese brands. Replacement contact points are not available but
Compac points will fit, in a pinch.
* Repairs: not possible
* Sales: discount catalogs
* Parts: not available
* Information: not available
Bestest (Switzerland) is fast becoming America's favorite. They're among
the very best available; a great value for the money. Excellent
repeatability and quick response make them desirable. If there's a
drawback, it's that they're prone to damage because of the light
construction. Available in black or white, horizontal, vertical or
parallel. Except for the name on the dial, they are identical to
Tesatast. Distributed in the US by Brown & Sharpe.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Bestest
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Bestest
China made indicators are at the bottom of the barrel. You can't get any
worse. Some years ago we were hired to evaluate these indicators for MSC
(Manhattan Tool Supply) who wanted to know if they were worth importing.
Apparently they didn't listen to our advise. Dovetails didn't fit and
brand new .0001" indicators wouldn't calibrate. It turns out that
dovetails don't accept anyone else's attachments because they're
oversized. Pass on these and order some Take-Out instead (but skip the
chicken feet).
* Repairs: not possible
* Sales: discount catalogs everywhere
* Parts: not available
* Information: not available
CDI (Chicago) test indicators are identical to Compac (Switzerland).
These were made for CDI in the 1980's. CDI no longer sells them but you
can buy the Compac replacements.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Compac
Compac (Switzerland) has been our indicator of choice for over 4
decades. These are sturdier than Bestest and less finicky (and less
costly) than Interapid, even though they're made by the same
manufacturer. They are now included in the 2005 Brown & Sharpe catalog.
Of particular note are the extra long range of some of the models. Model
215GA (.0001") and 225GA (.0001" vertical) have dials with extra wide
spacing between graduation marks. This is a feature that many owners
appreciated in Compac's predecessor: Alina test indicators. Dials are
continuous reading on long range models, balanced on standard range.
Contact points will swivel, like other indicators, but you may encounter
more friction than you're used to. It's okay to apply the extra force.
The indicator's over-sized pivot can take it.
* New features: oversized, virtually indestructible ball bearings
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Compac
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Compac
Craftsman indicators are sold by Sears but are often times made in the
UK in which case they are identical to Verdict indicators. They're not
very good (in fact, they're downright awful) but do offer the "pear
shaped" contact point which makes them look quite medieval and
eliminates the cosine error, in theory.
* Repairs: why would you want to fix it?
* Sales: avoid this one like the plague
* Parts: your guess is as good as ours
* Information: if you know something, let us know!
Federal Gage made the worst test indicator you could get stuck with.
Bits of solder were used to hold it together. Mercifully these have been
discontinued. The last models named Testmaster were made by Tesa in
Switzerland and they're identical to Bestest indicators (see above).
These are no longer available from Federal, but you can still buy the
Bestest equivalent. The newest indicators are called MarTest (see
Mahr-Federal).
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service (Bestest equivalents)
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service (Bestest equivalents)
* Information: Long Island Indicator Service
Fowler used to rely heavily on English imports such as Verdict
indicators. These are about as good as English weather in winter.
Nowadays they rely more heavily on Swiss made gages but also offer
look-alikes in their effort to remain competitive. Beware of wolves in
sheep's clothing: a new Interapid look-alike is made in China and sold
under the name Xtest. Similarly, series 52-562, 52-563 and 52-560 are
also Chinese. The best mechanical test indicator which Fowler offers is
the Swiss made Girodtast. When shopping Fowler, if it doesn't say "Swiss
Made" don't buy it.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Long Island Indicator Service
Gem (USA) makes an inferior version of the popular Starrett Last Word
Indicator. This would be fine if they were cheaper. There is an odd
variation, however: one model has two dial faces, one on each side. This
comes in handy in some applications.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: discount catalogs
* Parts: from the manufacturer or through a dealer
* Information: see their catalog at www.thomasregister.com
Girodtast (Switzerland) is similar to the old style (1970's) Bestest
indicator. In the USA these are sold by Fowler. In Switzerland they are
also sold with the name SISO-Tast. If you've ever wanted a Bestest
indicator with multiple revolutions, Girod offers several models with
extended ranges. If they have a drawback, it's that the contact point is
adjustable. You'd think this were an advantage, but for most people it's
a nuisance. On the Bestest you simply unscrew the old, screw in the new.
On the Girod-Tast you have to adjust the new point so that the indicator
is in calibration.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Fowler distributors nationwide
* Parts: not available from Long Island Indicator
* Information: Girodtast
Interapid (Switzerland) is the gem of all test indicators. These have
the distinctive slanted dial which the other manufacturers have only
just begun to copy. If the Interapid has one flaw, it's the fact that
correct readings are obtained when the contact angle is 12°. Undoubtedly
this has its advantages as long as the user remembers to take it into
account. The revolution counter hand does not have any numbers
associated with it. There are just a couple of tick marks showing you
that you've gone around once or twice. Dials are balanced and the right
side of the dial has a thin black line which will help you determine
plus or minus in a mirror set-up. A 4 mm diameter holding stem is
permanently attached to the far end of the indicator. It swivels up and
down but this means that you can't attach any other holders or stems to
this end of the indicator. Models with 2.8" long contact points tend to
have a slower response and should probably only be used to measure .001"
(Note: beware of cheap Interapid look-alike ripoffs now being offered in
catalogs. Fowler is the culprit behind this swindle. They're made in
China and they're junk. Insist on the real thing.)
* New features: improved paint job on the body
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Interapid
Kafer (Germany) (also spelled Kδfer and Kaefer) manufactures a complete
line of test indicators with one revolution. These are beautifully
crafted and come in a box with a clear lid, so you can easily see what
you're taking off the shelf. Alas, they do not have identifying serial
numbers. An excellent alternative to Swiss-made indicators.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Kafer
Kurt (USA) although located in Minneapolis, these are generic
made-in-China imports. They're cheap throwaways although Kurt claims
they're of better quality than other Chinese indicators.
* Repairs: never economically feasible
* Sales: Kurt distributors nationwide and some catalog houses
* Parts: Kurt claims to carry parts
* Information: downloadable catalog available at the Kurt.com web site
Last Word (USA) Starrett makes this stalwart and ubiquitous test
indicator without resorting to toothed gears. Although usually accurate
we've seen enough of them that compare poorly with the better built,
gear driven indicators to warrant skepticism. The body, being made of
iron, rusts easily and will become magnetic (and sticky as a result). On
the upside, these can take a beating.
* New features: one-piece molded crystal is easier to replace
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Starrett
Lufkin never manufactured any of their own indicators. In the 1960's
they had a vanity dial on the Alina indicator. These tended to have
model numbers such as V60X. It was never clear how they managed to usurp
Alina's exclusive rights to these gages and that may have been the
reason the line was finally dropped.
* Repairs: no longer possible
* Sales: extinct
* Parts: no longer available
* Information: see Alina
Mahr-Federal manufactured in Germany with the brand name MarTest. These
are very recent introductions made with classic German craftsmanship.
These are the only test indicators which have the contact point length
inscribed on the side of the case. Mahr-Federal has a $100 minimum parts
order so getting spare parts may be uneconomical in some cases.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: directly from Mahr-Federal or various catalog sources
* Parts: check the web site for a Federal distributor
* Information: check the Mahr-Federal web site
Mahr (Puppitast) manufactured in Germany, part of the pre-Mahr-Federal
conglomeration. These are structurally similar to Bestest, Tesatast and
Girodtast indicators. The handsome bodies are somewhat sturdier and have
textured sides which might, under some circumstances, keep them from
slipping out of your hands. The crystal can rather easily be replaced
without tools and this is an advantage over Bestest and Tesatast.
Discontinued.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: no longer available
* Parts: probably no longer available
* Information: discontinued
Mercer manufactured in Switzerland but for some reason the dial usually
reads "England." These are manufactured by Tesa for the English market
and are identical to Compac indicators (see above) with the obviously
different dial. Mercer offers several configurations not found in the
Compac line. If you absolutely must have this name on the dial, then we
can probably obtain them for you; otherwise, look for the Compac
equivalent.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Long Island Indicator Service
Mitutoyo new models, completely redesigned, are manufactured in Japan.
Some models are available with optically scanable serial numbers on the
dial face. The weaknesses of older models have been corrected but in an
effort at cost saving, these new models have weaknesses of their own.
The new "pocket" models 513-512 and 513-518 are a major improvement in
design and construction and can be recommended. The other models don't
compare with their European counterparts.
* New features: one piece bezel and crystal can be replaced without
tools
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Mitutoyo
Mueller old models were made in England.
* Repairs: not possible
* Sales: not available
* Parts: not available
* Information: none available
Nork indicators were manufactured in Manhattan of all places, by General
Howe Mfg Co., Inc. They're a dreadful imitation of the Starrett Last
Word indicator although they did have a much more functional reversing
lever.
* Repairs: not possible
* Sales: not available
* Parts: not available
* Information: none available
Peacock (Pic-Test) manufactured in Japan. This is a meager entry in the
test indicator market, designed along the lines of the old model
Bestest. Comparison ends there, however. Calibration often has to be
fudged by changing the contact point angle on the .0001" model. Newer
models contain plastic gears.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: various catalogs
* Parts: 1-408-871-7700
* Information: 1-408-871-7700
Shars generic indicator made in China (see China, above)
Sisotast manufactured in Switzerland. This is a vanity dial for the
Girodtast indicator. The indicators are identical with the exception of
the dial.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: available in Switzerland
* Parts: not available
* Information: not available
Starrett (USA) would like us to believe that they are products of the
USA. The origins of some of their indicators is vague, however. Model
708 for instance is only marked as "American Made." The revolution
counter hand has "0-1-2" markings with no indication of actual travel.
On this same model you will have to fuss with the contact angle to find
the right spot for accuracy. Half the dial is yellow and half is white.
This comes in handy when reading the dial in a mirror. (Yellow does not
indicate metric graduations in these models.) None of the Starrett test
indicators is in the same league as their European made counterparts and
we consider model 811 to be among the worst indicator designs available.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Starrett
Teclock (Japan) You can often buy European-made models for less, and
you'll get better quality. Spare parts are not commonly available. These
indicators are heftier but feature an inferior execution of the
Bestest-style mechanism. The newest models seem to come with plastic
bezels. When the crystals are scratched, or the bezel breaks (it will)
you won't be able to replace them. None of the Teclock test indicators
is in the same league as their European made counterparts.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: not available
* Information: Teclock
Tesatast (Switzerland) manufactured by Tesa are identical to Bestest
with all the same good features. The accessories that come with the
indicator are different. We have all parts in stock.
* Repairs: Long Island Indicator Service
* Sales: Long Island Indicator Service
* Parts: Long Island Indicator Service
* Information: Tesatast
XTest (China) manufactured for Fowler as a rip-off on the high-quality
Interapid indicator. They look so much alike in the advertisements that
many people are fooled into thinking they're getting a terrific deal on
the Swiss indicator. You get what you pay for. In this case, a pathetic
imitation.
* Repairs: not possible
* Sales: you're on your own
* Parts: Fowler claims to have parts in stock
===================================================================

I wear both kinds of hat, depending on what's needed, and who else is
involved. But if a piece
of work is going to have my fingerprints on it for any reason, then I want it to
be right. And if
getting it right requires an indicator, you can bet I'm gonna be real fussy
about what kind it is,
how it's used, and everything else about it, too.
I'm kinda strange that way.
KG

"I'm kinda strange that way."
IMO that would be one of the least "strange" things about you.
Do you have the opportunity to learn SolidWorks, SolidEdge, Inventor or
god forbid Alibre in your new job? If so I wonder if you will try and
make use of design intent / top down design rather than create dumb
models like you use to do in AutoCAD.
Jon "The Jew" Banquer
Phoenix, Arizona

"Now, now Jon. Let's not drag my indicator thread through the mud.
LMAO!"
I was just curious if Captain Kirk made any progress since I never
answered his 50 page response to why I though AutoCAD was the wrong
tool for the job way back when. The Captain went off on a long winded
tangent and completely missed what top down design / design intent was
all about and I didn't feel like correcting him.
Very similar your pal Gary Lucas using Rhino for years to designing his
green house.... wrong tool for the job. Isn't it time for one of his
famous why I'm quiting / getting fired posts?
Lucas might still be in business for himself if he had sold his shit
through head shops or advertised in high times or whatever. One company
who makes weed grinders sure seems to do well.
Oh well... that's about the extent of my chronic (what it seems to be
called these days) knowledge.
Jon "The Jew" Banquer
Phoenix, Arizona

Kirk:
Given two .0005 indicators (say an Interapid 0-15-0 and a Brown &
Sharpe Bestest 0-10-0), with the same dial diameters of 1.5" which do
you think would be more accurate - the Interapid with .030 per
revolution of travel or the one with .020 per revolution of travel
(which equates to 30% WIDER spacing of the marks)?
Or take two .0001 indicators (say an Interapid 0-4-0 & a Compac 0-2-0),
with similar dial diameters (the Interapid being 1.5" & the Compac being
1.575"), which do you think would be more accurate - the one with .008
per revolution of travel, or the one with .004 per revolution of travel
(which equates to DOUBLE the width spacing of the marks). Eh?

BottleBob wrote:
>
> Kirk Gordon wrote:
>
>> If you work with me, and don't use an Interapid, then I'm gonna have to
check your work with MY
>> Interapid.
>
> Kirk:
>
> Given two .0005 indicators (say an Interapid 0-15-0 and a Brown & Sharpe
Bestest 0-10-0), with
> the same dial diameters of 1.5" which do you think would be more accurate -
the Interapid with
> .030 per revolution of travel or the one with .020 per revolution of travel
(which equates to 30%
> WIDER spacing of the marks)? Or take two .0001 indicators (say an Interapid
0-4-0 & a Compac
> 0-2-0), with similar dial diameters (the Interapid being 1.5" & the Compac
being 1.575"), which
> do you think would be more accurate - the one with .008 per revolution of
travel, or the one with
> .004 per revolution of travel (which equates to DOUBLE the width spacing of
the marks). Eh?
The more accurate indicator, obviously, would be the one with the best
quality bearings, the
smoothest and most consistent engagement between the gears, and the best
designed ratio of point
length to gear ratio to spring rate. And, if you really want to do it right,
you'll use a spring
that exerts almost exactly the same force at pretty much any displacement.
It would also help if the whole thing was made of materials that resist
wear, and was built so
that dirt, dust, and other crud couldn't get inside, or into the point bearings,
to make it stick,
or make it vary even a little bit in the force required to move through any
increment. A perfectly
polished, extremely round ball on the point helps too. It can reduce friction,
and avoid false
readings from off-axis motions.
After you've made sure about all those things, then a little extra spacing
between the numbers
might be nice - especially since my eyes aren't what they once were. But you
could make the spacing
bigger with just a magnifying glass, and the basic instrument wouldn't be any
better.
Interapid is my choice. New, or 35 years old. It's still the best I've
ever found.
KG

I concur.
Who uses a test indicator for anything besides a comparison tool anyway?
I surely don't, there are better tools available for making fine
measurements. That makes any perceived inaccuracy or accuracy of test
indicators irrelevant. What matters is repeatability and dependability,
and in that regard it's pretty tough to beat an Interapid.

I was going o point that out. These things really aren't measuring tools per
se.
The only number I really care about being able to read on this type of
indicator is Zero.
Other than that it's a "split the difference" to find zero tool and
sensetivity and sticking are the issue.
BTW, I "tool changed" one of my Interapids at one this morning by accident
and it survived the ordeal unscathed.
Wish I could say the same for my shorts. LOL

There was this night when I forgot to use G53 and sent Z to zero on a
VMC. Somehow I missed the 12" cylindrical square, the fixture, and my
indicator. The magnetic indicator stand needed a bit of work though.
The Mitutoyo indicator was and is still fine.
I think I used up my lucky break for this year.
Wes S

My half thou Interapid survived a 3K launch better than the Indicol it
was mounted on did. It stayed in the machine, the Indicol came out after
me in a few pieces. Almost getting impaled by my own absent mindedness I
was too stunned to shit myself. :-/
The only thing wrong with it was the bezel was cracked. Sent it out and
paid $60 for a new bezel and a tune up and it came as good as new.

"My half thou Interapid survived a 3K launch better than the Indicol it
was mounted on did."
Indicols while useful / invaluable in many situations are my least
favorite way to indicate something.
Jon "The Jew" Banquer
Phoenix, Arizona

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