Thank you. Those discussions are interesting. However, when I read (or rather, skimmed) through them, I could not see that the discussions touched the question of rebirth in the Paticcasamuppada, which very much hinges on the understanding of the Pali word jati. Did I overlook something?

catmoon wrote:I'm not suggesting anything! I just want to look at the minimal set of Buddhist principles, see what it might look like. All the same, let's suppose you eliminate karma entirely. I presume that will leave the right and wrong types of action intact. So it's clear that much of the ethical system could survive this radical surgery. It might lose moral force though, because a wrong action would not necessarily have unfortunate consequences. Rights actions would have no benefit, except by pure chance. To regain the lost moral force, one might attempt resurrect consequences through dependent origination. But I'm speculating all over the map here.

If you remove the word karma altogether (which would not be a bad thing; it would reduce confusion) I'm just going to want to put "intention" in its place, because it seems to me that it's a fundamental piece of the basic teaching.

I think I get your drift. Basically you are saying Buddhism requires ethics and meditation. Without meditation, the ethics might become no more than an arbitrary and externally-imposed law. With meditation, the ethics can be internalized, or understood.

That's it exactly. Ethics emerges from having a deep understanding of the dhamma -- effectively, "Right View" -- which you're only going to get through meditation and mindfulness practices.

pegembara wrote:"And who is the person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death?

"There is the case of the person who has abandoned passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, and craving for sensuality. Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought does not occur to him, 'O, those beloved sensual pleasures will be taken from me, and I will be taken from them!' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death....

"Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has no doubt or perplexity, who has arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma. Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'I have no doubt or perplexity. I have arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death.

"These, brahman, are four people who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death."

Thank you for posting this. I have had a serious disease and faced death. That disease has a possibility of recurrence so about once a year I am retested. With each test I face my mortality and fear of death. With each test my fear of death lessens. I hope over the next years my health situation will further assist me in my understanding of dukkha, rebirth and the rest of the dhamma.

Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103

pegembara wrote:Thank you for posting this. I have had a serious disease and faced death. That disease has a possibility of recurrence so about once a year I am retested. With each test I face my mortality and fear of death. With each test my fear of death lessens. I hope over the next years my health situation will further assist me in my understanding of dukkha, rebirth and the rest of the dhamma.

So sorry to hear about your situation. This test all of us will face sooner or later.

Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate

“An active life serves the purpose of giving man the opportunity to realize values in creative work, while a passive life affords him the opportunity to obtain fulfillment in experiencing beauty, art, or nature.

But there is also purpose in that life which is almost barren of both creation and enjoyment and which admits of but one possibility of high moral behavior: namely, in man’s attitude to his existence, an existence restricted by external forces.

A creative life and a life of enjoyment are banned to him.

But not only creativeness and enjoyment are meaningful.

If there is a meaning in life at all, then there must be a meaning in suffering.

Suffering is an ineradicable part of life, even as fate and death.

Without suffering and death human life cannot be complete.”

"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

"Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."

"Live as if you were living already for the second time and as if you had acted the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!"

"We can discover this meaning in life in three different ways: (1) by creating a work or doing a deed; (2) by experiencing a something or encountering someone; and (3) by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering."

"Man does not simply exist but always decides what his existence will be, what he will become in the next moment."

"When we are no longer able to change a situation - just think of an incurable disease such as inoperable cancer - we are challenged to change ourselves

With Metta

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.