I wanted to ask you a question about raw or unrefined sugar, and if that would fit the profile of MMís operations not using refined sugar in their dough, as they mentioned at http://mellowmushroom.com/public/old_site1/aboutus.html Raw or unrefined sugar still has some molasses in it as I understand.

I wanted to ask you a question about raw or unrefined sugar, and if that would fit the profile of MMís operations not using refined sugar in their dough, as they mentioned at http://mellowmushroom.com/public/old_site1/aboutus.html Raw or unrefined sugar still has some molasses in it as I understand.

Norma,

That is a good question. In fact, before I mentioned raw cane sugar to you in an earlier post I did some research on the subject. As you know, raw cane sugar is made by crystallizing the initial pressing of 100% pure sugar cane and, indeed, it does contain a small amount of molasses. The impression I got is that it takes a fair amount of additional processing beyond the first pressing to arrive at what we commonly call "refined" table sugar. It also appears that raw cane sugar is sold under the name "turbinado" sugar. I have a bag of Imperial Sugar Gold'N Natural turbinado sugar and the package uses expressions like "made from natural cane" to emphasize the natural and purportedly "healthier" and more "wholesome" form of that sugar. The leading brand of turbinado sugar is Sugar in the Raw. You might also be interested in knowing that the Sugar in the Raw brand of turbinado sugar was first introduced in 1974, the year that MM was formed: http://www.jlwfoodsales.com/principal_profile.cfm?id=167. So, raw cane sugar has been around for a very long time.

I even wondered whether MM might be using only raw cane sugar in its doughs. However, even though the turbinado sugar is tan colored, I think it would take too much of that sugar to get the desired degree of coloration of MM's dough balls. Also, I think it would be too thin a reed on which to base a claim that the dough contains molasses, with the implication that it is more than just a hint of it.

Of all of the "unrefined" "natural" forms of sweeteners, I would say that raw cane sugar may be the least expensive and with more stable pricing over time (unlike honey whose pricing and supply has been wildly erratic). So, if one were to use another form of natural sugar to complement molasses in a pizza dough in a commercial commissary setting, raw cane sugar would be my first choice. All marketing hype aside, I think that one can make out a case that raw cane sugar is not a "refined" sugar. At least I think that such a position is defensible enough to support a claim that MM is not using refined sugar in the dough and would be in line with the claims and language used by the producers of raw cane sugar in their promotion of raw cane sugar.

As far as the ADM 65 DMP product is concerned, I think I would give it a test drive since you already have it. I would perhaps try a combination of that product and raw cane sugar. If you would like me to come up with an MM test dough formulation to play around with, let me know.

That is a good question. In fact, before I mentioned raw cane sugar to you in an earlier post I did some research on the subject. As you know, raw cane sugar is made by crystallizing the initial pressing of 100% pure sugar cane and, indeed, it does contain a small amount of molasses. The impression I got is that it takes a fair amount of additional processing beyond the first pressing to arrive at what we commonly call "refined" table sugar. It also appears that raw cane sugar is sold under the name "turbinado" sugar. I have a bag of Imperial Sugar Gold'N Natural turbinado sugar and the package uses expressions like "made from natural cane" to emphasize the natural and purportedly "healthier" and more "wholesome" form of that sugar. The leading brand of turbinado sugar is Sugar in the Raw. You might also be interested in knowing that the Sugar in the Raw brand of turbinado sugar was first introduced in 1974, the year that MM was formed: http://www.jlwfoodsales.com/principal_profile.cfm?id=167. So, raw cane sugar has been around for a very long time.

I even wondered whether MM might be using only raw cane sugar in its doughs. However, even though the turbinado sugar is tan colored, I think it would take too much of that sugar to get the desired degree of coloration of MM's dough balls. Also, I think it would be too thin a reed on which to base a claim that the dough contains molasses, with the implication that it is more than just a hint of it.

Of all of the "unrefined" "natural" forms of sweeteners, I would say that raw cane sugar may be the least expensive and with more stable pricing over time (unlike honey whose pricing and supply has been wildly erratic). So, if one were to use another form of natural sugar to complement molasses in a pizza dough in a commercial commissary setting, raw cane sugar would be my first choice. All marketing hype aside, I think that one can make out a case that raw cane sugar is not a "refined" sugar. At least I think that such a position is defensible enough to support a claim that MM is not using refined sugar in the dough and would be in line with the claims and language used by the producers of raw cane sugar in their promotion of raw cane sugar.

As far as the ADM 65 DMP product is concerned, I think I would give it a test drive since you already have it. I would perhaps try a combination of that product and raw cane sugar. If you would like me to come up with an MM test dough formulation to play around with, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

I did remember you mentioned raw sugar to me in one of your posts before. That is why I looked at my raw sugar (brownish in color, larger in crystals, and from the Country Store, so I donít know what brand it is). I know the raw sugar does taste very sweet in flavor.

I didnít know that turbinado sugar is Sugar in the Raw. I didnít even know they had small packets of Sugar in the Raw. My thinking on Sugar in the Raw has been limited to Stevia in the Raw. I did know that raw sugar is supposed to be healthier and a more wholesome form of sugar, but I really am not sure of that. It is still sugar to me.

I could envision MMís using raw sugar in combination with molasses, because they could say it isnít refined sugar, although we really donít know if MMís is using raw sugar.

I would appreciate if you would come up with a test formulation for the ADM 65 DMP in combination with the raw sugar, for me to give a test-drive. I sure donít have any idea of how to formulate that. Remember though, my last attempt with the ADM 4000 DMP and my crust getting too dark. I think the ADM 65 DMP will produce a darker crust too, if too much is used. Do you still want me to try and request the ADM Dri-mol molasses samples?

These are a few pictures I copied from Google images from the Nashville commissary, and tried to enlarge them to see if the flour brand could be view or any other things can be seen. My editing software is only paint, so I couldnít see the brand of flour MMís uses or anything different on the pictures. Maybe if someone has better editing software, they could be able to spot something from the pictures.

I enjoyed Bizís pictures of the real MMís crust pictures. At least I have those in my mind to try and duplicate.

I would hold the decision on the ADM Dri-mol products in abeyance, pending the results you get with the ADM 65 DMP product.

I also tried to magnify the photos you enlarged but could not make out the wording on the bags of flour.

I will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for you to test out using the ADM 65 DMP product.

I noticed that Biz made mention of an MM commissary somewhere around Nashville. I thought that MM has only one commissary, somewhere in the Atlanta area. If there were one near the last MM store Biz visited, I think they would have had fresh dough balls, not frozen ones.

I will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for you to test out using the ADM 65 DMP product.

I noticed that Biz made mention of an MM commissary somewhere around Nashville. I thought that MM has only one commissary, somewhere in the Atlanta area. If there were one near the last MM store Biz visited, I think they would have had fresh dough balls, not frozen ones.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying you will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for me to test out using the ADM 65 DMP products.

I havenít read a lot about how many commissaries MMís has or doenít have. I have wondered about that myself. The only thing I did read about was that I guess MMís does have a training store in Douglasville, Ga. With all the new pizza businesses MMís is opening, there has to be MMís locations that either make their own dough, or has somewhere near them make the dough for them. It would be interesting to hear if Biz knows more about a Nashville commissary.

I have set forth below for your consideration a proposed MM dough clone formulation using the ADM 65 DMP product. To avoid confusion with the other MM clone dough formulations, I will refer to it as the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation. Even though the spec sheets for the ADM 65 DMP product do not say to use a half to 100% of the weight of the ADM 65 DMP product as added water, as did the spec sheets for the ADM 4000 DMP product, I decided that I would do as I did before and use more water with the ADM 65 DMP product (50%) on the basis that both products are dry. You will also note that I specify 0.60% IDY in the dough formulation. That increase is to compensate for any potential effects on yeast performance due the large amount of total sugars (4% of the ADM 65 DMP product and 4% raw cane sugar) and also to compensate for some expected loss of IDY yeast cells due to freezing. The higher IDY value might also give the dough more rise during baking. Of course, the oven spring will also be highly dependent on the oven temperature and how the skin is shaped to create a large rim.

Since the ADM 65 DMP product is being used for the first time, and although it looks to be a bit lighter in color than the ADM 4000 DMP product, you might want to monitor the color of the finished dough so that it approximates the color of a brown coffee filter (it should be somewhat lighter than a brown paper bag).

In the new dough formulation presented below, I calculate an ďeffectiveĒ hydration of around 56.8%. That takes into account the effects of the addition of the raw cane sugar and the oil. I think that that value of effective hydration should yield a workable dough but you should use your best judgment when using your KitchenAid stand mixer and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. This would be in addition to trying to achieve the desired degree of coloration of the dough.

In preparing the dough, you will want to pulverize the toasted wheat germ. I believe that you can use the volume measurements for the raw cane sugar, but because the raw cane sugar has a larger particle size than ordinary table sugar, you might want to weigh out the raw cane sugar. I deleted the volume measurements in the dough formulation for the molasses, as I did the last time.

Once the dough has been made, you will want to freeze it as soon as you can and use it as you did your last frozen dough ball. Hopefully this time you will be able to get a sweeter crust.

*The Unbleached High-Gluten/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 296.2 grams (10.45 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.16 grams (0.32 ounces) of pulverized toasted wheat germ, based on a ratio of 97% high-gluten flour and 3% wheat germ.Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces, for a single 14Ē pizza; the amount of water added due to use of the dry ADM 65 DMP product is 50% of the weight of that product; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

Thanks for setting-forth the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation. That was fast! I can understand why you specified to use 0.60% IDY to compensate for any potential effects on yeast performance due to the large amount of total sugars and also to compensate for some expected loss of IDY yeast cells due to freezing. I never would have thought of all of that in trying to formulate the dough with the added sugars.

I will try to monitor the color and hydration of the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation, when mixing the dough. I already have some pulverized toasted wheat germ from my last attempt. It is good you told me to weight out the raw sugar because of the larger particles size. I might not of thought of that. I think, but donít know, that your formula will give the crust a sweeter flavor. At least at 4% it should give the crust a sweeter flavor. I will freeze the dough ball right after it is mixed, and formed into a dough ball.

As for a Nashville commissary, I am just basing that on info Peter shared from the MM website, where in their picture gallery for Nashville, they seem to be showing a commissary. Not 100% sure there is one, but it seems to imply it. Peter may have more info.

I also wanted to get my thoughts out "on paper" about my current situation. I thought it would be good for me, and possibly others, to put forth a sort of timeline of events as I've gone thru this process:

A. First MM clone attempt based on guesstimate formula. 5% Molasses, 6.75% Oil, 1.75% Germ. 24-hour dough. Reaction at the time was that it was very sweet and soft.B. Second attempt, using Peter's MM#1 formula. 4.6% Molasses, 4.13% Oil, 3.1% Germ. 24-hour dough. Basically a waste because I burned the pizza.C. Visited Franklin MM store. Reaction was that the crust was noticeably sweet, with few if any other flavor notes. D. Third attempt, again using Peter's MM#1 formula. 24-hour dough. Reaction was that crust was not sweet at all, but rather very heavy on the wheat germ.E. Fourth attempt, using a modified version of MM#2. 5% molasses, 2% Germ, 3% Oil. 48-hour dough. Reaction was a very "blah" flavor, neither sweet nor particularly wheat germy. F. Visit to Farragut MM store. Reaction was that the crust was not as sweet as the Franklin MM visit. Color seemed to be very similar to clone attempts.

Based on this timeline, I am trying to decide what to try for this Sunday's pizza. Since I've eaten 2 real MM pies since my very first attempt which I thought at the time was "sweet", I am heavily leaning towards trying that same initial "guesstimation" formula again. If not that exact formula, then the modified MM#2 with increased yeast to make it a 24-hour dough. I'm wondering if the 24-hour window has anything to do with the sweetness since my first attempt and fourth attempts were very close in molasses and germ content, but produced very different sweetness results (as far as taste buds can be trusted.)

I have heard about Sucanat but I have never tried it. I am not a big sugar user. A 4-lb bag of sugar typically lasts about 9 months in my home, and most of it is for my morning coffee. I must be slipping because a 4-lb bag of sugar used to last me about a year .

I think it is because my brain is not addled by sugar that allows me to produce dough formulations so fast. This aside, I seriously doubt that MM is using Sucanat. I think it would be too costly to use when there are much cheaper alternatives if the objective is to add sweetness to a dough beyond what molasses itself might provide.

Since one of the articles you referenced mentioned turbinado sugar, I went to the Imperial website to see what is stated there as to the nature of its turbinado sugar. This is what I found, under the section about how sugar is processed:

All-natural Imperial Pure Cane Sugar and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar starts as sugar cane grown in Louisiana and Florida. The cane is harvested and transported to Imperial Sugar refining facilities. There, the cane is shredded, mixed with water and crushed. The resulting juice is mixed with naturally occurring minerals, then allowed to dry and form crystals. At this point, the crystals are called raw sugar or turbinado. The crystals are larger than the crystals you are used to on your table and have a slight brownish color. The raw sugar is then combined with more minerals to strip away impurities. The resulting white crystal is added to water and filtered through carbon to remove final impurities. The mixture is allowed to dry to form the all-natural, Imperial and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar you rely on for your recipes and beverages.

If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Sucanat sugar is a better form of turbinado sugar with more of the molasses.

I think that was a great idea to put forth a time line on what formulas you have used so far, and how you thought they tasted. Your input on how real MMís pie tasted, and your pictures are also very helpful.

I donít know what Peter might suggest you try, but when I used the MM#2 attempt this week, with freezing and thawing the dough ball, it was basically a 24 hrs. cold fermented dough ball. I didnít notice any sweeter taste in the crust in that attempt from the experiment I did before this week, not including the experiment I did with the ADM 4000 DMP product.

I have heard about Sucanat but I have never tried it. I am not a big sugar user. A 4-lb bag of sugar typically lasts about 9 months in my home, and most of it is for my morning coffee. I must be slipping because a 4-lb bag of sugar used to last me about a year .

I think it is because my brain is not addled by sugar that allows me to produce dough formulations so fast. This aside, I seriously doubt that MM is using Sucanat. I think it would be too costly to use when there are much cheaper alternatives if the objective is to add sweetness to a dough beyond what molasses itself might provide.

Since one of the articles you referenced mentioned turbinado sugar, I went to the Imperial website to see what is stated there as to the nature of its turbinado sugar. This is what I found, under the section about how sugar is processed:

All-natural Imperial Pure Cane Sugar and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar starts as sugar cane grown in Louisiana and Florida. The cane is harvested and transported to Imperial Sugar refining facilities. There, the cane is shredded, mixed with water and crushed. The resulting juice is mixed with naturally occurring minerals, then allowed to dry and form crystals. At this point, the crystals are called raw sugar or turbinado. The crystals are larger than the crystals you are used to on your table and have a slight brownish color. The raw sugar is then combined with more minerals to strip away impurities. The resulting white crystal is added to water and filtered through carbon to remove final impurities. The mixture is allowed to dry to form the all-natural, Imperial and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar you rely on for your recipes and beverages.

If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Sucanat sugar is a better form of turbinado sugar with more of the molasses.

Peter

Peter,

I can see you arenít a big sugar user if you are only using a 4-lb. bag in 9 months. At least I drink my coffee only with milk, so I can use more sugar or alternatives in other foods. At least that is my reasoning whether it is right or wrong. Lol, your brain not being addled by sugar allowing you to produce dough formulations so fast. It is just your brain that is fast, with or without the sugar. Some people are just born with more smarts from the beginning.

If you also want me to try another formulation this week, with regular molasses and raw sugar, or with the Sucanat with or without added molasses, I can do that. I didnít have any more experiments really planned for this week. I would also try the formulation you set-forth for the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone formulation. Let me know if you also want me to try another formula for a MM clone attempt. I could make the dough and then just freeze it. There would be no watching how the dough ferments, so that would make everything easier.

Interesting what you found out about turbinado sugar at the Imperial website.

As for a Nashville commissary, I am just basing that on info Peter shared from the MM website, where in their picture gallery for Nashville, they seem to be showing a commissary. Not 100% sure there is one, but it seems to imply it. Peter may have more info.

Usually you have to have a lot of stores to justify several commissaries. I suspect that MM has only one and that the outlying stores beyond the economic reach of Atlanta make their dough at the store level.

If you also want me to try another formulation this week, with regular molasses and raw sugar, or with the Sucanat with or without added molasses, I can do that. I didnít have any more experiments really planned for this week. I would also try the formulation you set-forth for the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone formulation. Let me know if you also want me to try another formula for a MM clone attempt. I could make the dough and then just freeze it. There would be no watching how the dough ferments, so that would make everything easier.

Norma,

For now, I would like to see how the combination of the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar works out in terms of crust sweetness, since that has been a particularly vexing problem. However, I was wondering what would happen if one used say, 8-10%, pulverized toasted wheat germ and what that would do to the dough/crust in terms of color, taste and texture. That type of experiment could be done with any MM dough clone formulation since it simply means changing the ratio of the high-gluten flour and the wheat germ (e.g., from 97/3 to 90/10). All the other numbers would remain the same. There is no urgency for that that experiment. It can await the outcome of your latest test. Obviously, different people with different tastebuds will detect something like wheat germ at much lower levels than others whatever the type and form of the wheat germ, as Biz apparently has. But if the flavor of wheat germ jumps out at someone as being excessive or offensive and clearly not something that one would get with a real MM crust (for those who have actually tasted an MM crust), that can help define future experiments using lower levels.

Another possible test would be to use molasses (wet or dry) with something like honey. However, that is another experiment that can be deferred to a later date depending on the results of the tests in progress.

For now, I would like to see how the combination of the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar works out in terms of crust sweetness, since that has been a particularly vexing problem. However, I was wondering what would happen if one used say, 8-10%, pulverized toasted wheat germ and what that would do to the dough/crust in terms of color, taste and texture. That type of experiment could be done with any MM dough clone formulation since it simply means changing the ratio of the high-gluten flour and the wheat germ (e.g., from 97/3 to 90/10). All the other numbers would remain the same. There is no urgency for that that experiment. It can await the outcome of your latest test. Obviously, different people with different tastebuds will detect something like wheat germ at much lower levels than others whatever the type and form of the wheat germ, as Biz apparently has. But if the flavor of wheat germ jumps out at someone as being excessive or offensive and clearly not something that one would get with a real MM crust (for those who have actually tasted an MM crust), that can help define future experiments using lower levels.

Another possible test would be to use molasses (wet or dry) with something like honey. However, that is another experiment that can be deferred to a later date depending on the results of the tests in progress.

Peter

Peter,

I also want to see how the combination of ADM 65 DMP and the raw sugar works out in the terms of crust sweetness, since I havenít achieved really much of any crust sweetness in my attempts. I am really not even sure if Steve, my taste testers, or I will like more crust sweetness, but that is what we all are trying to achieve to be more like a real MMís pizza crust.

Your idea of adding more (8-10%), pulverized toasted wheat germ sounds like an interesting experiment. Do you also think you might try that experiment at some point? You are right that different people might detect something different with more toasted wheat germ. I wonder if Biz is still using his raw wheat germ, without toasting it. I looked at the raw wheat germ at the Country Store yesterday, and it does look much lighter in color. I have never tasted raw wheat germ. I have only bought toasted wheat germ in the past, so I donít even have any idea how raw wheat germ tastes. I will try the added toasted wheat germ experiment at a later date. Right now I am more interested in trying to get some more sweetness in the crust.

I would be interested in trying honey with Brer Rabbit mild flavored liquid molasses for this coming Tuesday. How would I determine how much honey to add to the MM#2 formula? I know how the MM#2 formula tastes in a finished pizza, so adding honey would just change one variable. Do you have any specific percent of honey in mind to try in a MA#2 formula? Another thing I meant to do last week was coat the dough ball in toasted coarse corn meal, but my toasted coarse corn meal was at market. I bought another bag of the toasted coarse corn meal yesterday at the Country Store, so I could coat the dough ball (MM#3 ADM 65 DMP formula) with the corn meal before freezing, something like the real MMís does. Right now at home I only have Wildflower honey, that a man at market produces.

To keep things simple, you might try the MM clone dough formulation as set forth below, which I created using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This version is similar to the last one I gave you but will use a combination of Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and liquid honey. I will call this formulation the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation. As you may know, there are more than 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S. In due course, you may want to obtain samples of all of the known kinds of honey in the U.S. to store in the addition you are building to your home to house all of the samples of ingredients you have managed to convince suppliers to send to you.

Although I would be surprised to learn that MM uses honey in its dough, honey does have a lot of positive attributes in addition to sweetness, color and flavor. For example, in a frozen dough honey improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing. It also significantly improves dough strength. If the wildflower honey that you have available to you is unprocessed, it will also have many enzymes that should be beneficial. If you are interested in reading more on this topic, you might take a look at the series of posts at the PMQ Think Tank starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26951&hilit=#p26884.

In the dough formulation presented below, I made adjustments to the nominal hydration to compensate for the fact that liquid molasses includes 22% water and that honey includes 17% water. I calculate that the ďadjustedĒ hydration (that takes the water in the molasses and honey into account) is about 56% and that the ďeffectiveĒ hydration (that also takes the oil into account) is about 58%. I believe that that value of effective hydration should keep the dough manageable.

You should prepare and freeze the finished dough ball as you have been doing with your recent experiments. As before, you may want to monitor the hydration of the finished dough and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. Also, you may want to monitor the final color of the dough although I wouldnít be too preoccupied with the final color inasmuch as the color of your wildflower honey will also have an effect on the final color of the dough.

In due course, I plan to make a test dough with a fair amount of toasted wheat germ (I will use the Kretschmerís supermarket brand).

To keep things simple, you might try the MM clone dough formulation as set forth below, which I created using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This version is similar to the last one I gave you but will use a combination of Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and liquid honey. I will call this formulation the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation. As you may know, there are more than 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S. In due course, you may want to obtain samples of all of the known kinds of honey in the U.S. to store in the addition you are building to your home to house all of the samples of ingredients you have managed to convince suppliers to send to you.

Although I would be surprised to learn that MM uses honey in its dough, honey does have a lot of positive attributes in addition to sweetness, color and flavor. For example, in a frozen dough honey improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing. It also significantly improves dough strength. If the wildflower honey that you have available to you is unprocessed, it will also have many enzymes that should be beneficial. If you are interested in reading more on this topic, you might take a look at the series of posts at the PMQ Think Tank starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26951&hilit=#p26884.

In the dough formulation presented below, I made adjustments to the nominal hydration to compensate for the fact that liquid molasses includes 22% water and that honey includes 17% water. I calculate that the ďadjustedĒ hydration (that takes the water in the molasses and honey into account) is about 56% and that the ďeffectiveĒ hydration (that also takes the oil into account) is about 58%. I believe that that value of effective hydration should keep the dough manageable.

You should prepare and freeze the finished dough ball as you have been doing with your recent experiments. As before, you may want to monitor the hydration of the finished dough and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. Also, you may want to monitor the final color of the dough although I wouldnít be too preoccupied with the final color inasmuch as the color of your wildflower honey will also have an effect on the final color of the dough.

In due course, I plan to make a test dough with a fair amount of toasted wheat germ (I will use the Kretschmerís supermarket brand).

Thank you for keeping things simple for me in figuring out the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation for me to try. I never would have been able to figure out a nominal hydration using honey and molasses. I appreciate you have the brains to be able to do that. I will follow your instructions to prepare and freeze the finished dough ball. I probably will make both doughs tomorrow morning, and freeze them until Monday when I go to market.

I am not sure if my Wildflower honey is unprocessed. It is light colored honey. I do have unprocessed honey at market, and also the man at market that has the hives makes many kinds of honey. He even sends his hives to Florida to vacation in the winter. He gave me the two jars of honey. I didnít know frozen honey dough improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing and also improves the dough strength. I read the link you referenced on Re: suger in dough at PMQTT so many times and still donít remember what all was in that thread. Thanks for refreshing my memory. I didnít know there are 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S. About getting more samples of honey, I think that isnít going to happen. I sure donít know what to do with all the with all the samples I have managed to convince suppliers to send me, let alone get more. I would have thought by now, I would have come across some kind of ďsuper doughĒ for a pizza, but that wasnít meant to be.

I donít remember these two videos posted on this thread, but if they were, just ignore them.

I think after watching all the piemen from all the videos from Mellow Mushroom, I might need to get my training video out for Throw Dough. http://www.throwdough.com/ I am nothing in comparison to those piemen at MMís in tossing and twirling the dough. I never really practiced with my Throw Dough, but since it doesnít feel like real dough, I guess I just never bothered. Maybe I will get it out this weekend and see if I can get better at tossing and twirling.

Thanks for telling me in due course you are going to try a larger amount of toasted wheat germ in a MM formula. I guess my toasted wheat germ is from Dutch Valley. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/grains/156056/wheat-germ-toasted-25lb I donít know if different brands of toasted wheat germ will make any difference in a MMís formulation or not.

The math for the dough formulations isn't really all that difficult, and it certainly helps to have the expanded dough calculating tool to set up all of the numbers. Without that tool, it would be almost impossible to conduct the kinds of experiments we have been conducting and to change them at will and as quickly as we have been doing. But the key number in all of the formulations is the hydration, specifically, what I have been calling the "effective" hydration. No matter what goes into the dough, the effective hydration has to be around 57-58%.

It will be an interesting contest between the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP formulation and the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey formulation, with the combination of dry molasses and raw sugar cane (a commercial version) being matched against the combination of liquid molasses and honey (a home version). All the other baker's percents for the remaining dough ingredients are the same. We might discover that the finished crust is too sweet or it may be too tender because of a total of 8% sugars. For sweetness, I am relying on the raw cane sugar and honey to pull the molasses through to the finish line. If needed, we can always adjust the sweetness and/or hydration. I perhaps should have mentioned it earlier, but because of the high sugar content you may want to watch the bottoms of the crusts so that they don't darken too fast. I'm sure you already know this and will have a pizza screen or two on hand to lift the pizzas off of the stone if the crusts start to darken too quickly. In a home oven, I would just lift the pizza off of the stone to a higher oven rack position. And I wouldn't necessarily start with the highest oven temperature.

I guess my toasted wheat germ is from Dutch Valley. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/grains/156056/wheat-germ-toasted-25lb I donít know if different brands of toasted wheat germ will make any difference in a MMís formulation or not.

Norma,

Unfortunately, we may never know. At the home level, we are stuck with whatever brands of wheat germ we can get. It might be Kretschmer's, Mother's, Bob's Red Mill, or a Barry Farms repackaged wheat germ product. MM would be using large bags of wheat germ, no doubt from a commercial source. We are similarly handicapped at the home level with our choices of molasses. It is likely to be Grandma's or Brer Rabbit or some other like product that individuals can purchase in small quantities. Even if we knew the exact brands of high-gluten flour, wheat germ and molasses that MM uses, they might not be readily available to individuals and the quantities are likely to be impractical for the home pizza maker. And MM wil always have a cost advantage. An MM dough clone made at home is not a cheap dough.

I know the expanded dough calculating tool does certainly help set up all the numbers. I know from doing different experiments before, and putting a certain hydration percent in the dough calculating tool, and then just putting the percent of the rest of the ingredients wanted. The tool does do miracles, and I can understand we wouldnít able to conduct the kinds of experiments we have been doing, unless someone would really be good at math. I probably could have figured out a formulation to try, but wasnít sure how to figure out how honey and molasses to try in the formula. That is one place I get stumped on knowing how much of each ingredient to add to be able to determine what the final result might be.

I also think it will be an interesting contest between the MM# ADM 65 DMP formulation, and the MM# 4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Home formulation. I wonder since the MM# ADM 65 clone dough formulation does have the commercial raw sugar and the ADM 65 DMP, how that will fair out against the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey formulation, which has home version ingredients. It also makes me wonder if MMís is using a premix to send to the stores that donít have commissaryís near them, if they would use commercial dry vegetable oil. I wouldnít think the ingredients would come separately to MMís businesses that donít have access to the main commissary, but I guess they could add regular vegetable oil when they mix the other ingredients for the dough. I think MMís is pretty secretive about what goes into their pizza dough mix, since even most managers or workers donít seem to know what is in the whole mix.

I had thought about the high sugar content, and also thought back to when I made Papa Johnís pizzas and needed to use screens, from all the sugar in the Papa Johnís dough. I also wanted to get a longer bake time than my last attempt, so I was thinking along the lines of waiting until the bottom crust starts to brown, then transfer the pizza onto maybe multiple screens, so the bake time is longer. I would have a hard time lowering the temperature of my oven at market, and switching to making my regular pizzas.

I have no idea what kind of wheat germ, molasses or high-gluten flour MMís uses. I guess my toasted wheat germ is a commercial brand since it probably came from Dutch Valley. I have been lucky, that most of my ingredients have been given to me, or either have been able to be bought at the Country Store, where ingredients are cheaper than online or elsewhere. Even my KASL is relatively cheap, compared to what other members might have to pay for high-gluten flour. I never thought how much the MMís dough might cost for a member to try a dough. I guess you already did the calculations for how much one dough ball costs.

I never thought how much the MMís dough might cost for a member to try a dough. I guess you already did the calculations for how much one dough ball costs.

Norma,

I don't have any KASL but at King Arthur's price (excluding shipping charges) and using my costs for the rest of the ingredients (Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ, spring water, SAF IDY, Brer Rabbit molasses, honey, salt and soybean oil), it would cost me $1.97 for the dough using the Brer Rabbit/wildflower honey dough formulation I gave you. That is for a roughly 18-ounce dough ball. Using KABF and vital wheat gluten would lower that cost by quite a bit.

I don't have any KASL but at King Arthur's price (excluding shipping charges) and using my costs for the rest of the ingredients (Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ, spring water, SAF IDY, Brer Rabbit molasses, honey, salt and soybean oil), it would cost me $1.97 for the dough using the Brer Rabbit/wildflower honey dough formulation I gave you. That is for a roughly 18-ounce dough ball. Using KABF and vital wheat gluten would lower that cost by quite a bit.

Peter

Peter,

I knew if you didnít already do the calculations for the price of you making a dough ball with the ingredients given for the formula I am using, you would figured it out quickly. I guess that is how no sugar on the brain helps you. From your calculations, I really donít think that is a lot for a dough ball, given what MMís charges for a pie. I am sure MMís would have a cost advantage for their dough balls. Hopefully, in this thread we all will be able to figure out how to make a credible MMís clone dough and pizza.