<quoted text>Right after that sentence it describes he "spiritual hunger".Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.Not much about the truths. They are more entertainedThey want to be entertained and church shop like most Prots.Most of these are those new mega-churches.Like the popular Prot Radio host ,Alan Hunt, I believe said, They are getting our good Prots and we are getting their bad Catholics

No wonder he would say that, he is a catholic.

I believe church should be enjoyable, faith building and exciting as opposed to being legally demanding, boring and ritually predictable. The true experience of being a christian is based on relationships with each other with Christ at the center. We can either worship the rituals, statues and worldly leaders or we can worship the true and living God-Christ in us our hope of glory.

Mike, do you speak in tongues, I hear that some catholics do. My point is that catholics do not all believe the same things. The catholics I know are more reasonable that you are. We have a former catholic in our church and he makes a point to walk down the isle, kneel and make the sign of the cross then find a seat. No one in our church thinks anything of it. Oh and yes we do have a cross in our church, something you never see in a coc. I think either way is acceptable to God.

Mike, do you speak in tongues, I hear that some catholics do. My point is that catholics do not all believe the same things. The catholics I know are more reasonable that you are. We have a former catholic in our church and he makes a point to walk down the isle, kneel and make the sign of the cross then find a seat. No one in our church thinks anything of it. Oh and yes we do have a cross in our church, something you never see in a coc. I think either way is acceptable to God.

Bobby, every coc I've been in has had a cross in it. Things might be different in Texas though. Good point about charismatic catholics-they all don't believe the same things as Mike says.

Mike, do you speak in tongues, I hear that some catholics do. My point is that catholics do not all believe the same things. The catholics I know are more reasonable that you are. We have a former catholic in our church and he makes a point to walk down the isle, kneel and make the sign of the cross then find a seat. No one in our church thinks anything of it. Oh and yes we do have a cross in our church, something you never see in a coc. I think either way is acceptable to God.

Catholics are TAUGHT the same things. Many pick and choose like Protestants.

The guy that kneels in your church is a little confused. You only do that is the physical presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle

Yes but its a empty cross. If you really know history,t the Romans didnt put the cross back up after a crucifixion. Jesus on the Cross and the empty tomb is what is important.

<quoted text>Bobby, every coc I've been in has had a cross in it. Things might be different in Texas though. Good point about charismatic catholics-they all don't believe the same things as Mike says.

I have never been in a coc where there was a cross inside or outside of the building and I have been in a lot of them. All the older coc's here have a steeple on the roof not a cross. If you see a picture of Heath's church, you will see what I mean. The reason they do that here is because they believe the catholics are sinning by using idols in worship. I have always disagreed with that notion. I have noticed that christian churches and even disciples of Christ here do have crosses. I believe that legalism is the reason behind this-the coc's do everything possible to present themselves as the only true church. Thankfully that is mostly in the past.

<quoted text>Once again all Catholic are taught the same thing. Some pick and choose. Cafeteria Catholics

Mike, I still see the same similarities between you and Johnny/Heath. I think you are presenting a side of the catholic church that is not the common teaching. The missing element is always GRACE within any legalistic church/denomination. They always honor tradition over Grace. All churches are filled with sinners and hopefully they know what they once were without the grace of God. The one true church syndrome is defective at it's core. Jesus has only one true church, that part is true but no body of believers has the authority to judge/cast out based on human hierarchy. That would be like saying that only republicans can true christians.

hi·er·ar·chy /&#712;h&#299;(&#6 01;)&#716;rärk&#275;/Noun

A system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority. The upper echelons of a hierarchical system; those in authority.

<quoted text>Catholics are TAUGHT the same things. Many pick and choose like Protestants.The guy that kneels in your church is a little confused. You only do that is the physical presence of Jesus in the TabernacleYes but its a empty cross. If you really know history,t the Romans didnt put the cross back up after a crucifixion. Jesus on the Cross and the empty tomb is what is important.

Here is the difference. Johnny and heath will accept sin from their own members but not those who sin in other churches. One true church advocates all do that. I would bet that you still consider those charismatic catholics as saved but will deny pentecostal charismatics saying they are lost-on their way to hell. You see, you have set yourself up as judge and jury all based on a hierarchical system.

Mike, people here will tell you that I accept anyone as a Christian which is not true. I do however have a difficult time condemning others to hell because I believe God has the ultimate authority to do that not mere men like me. God knows the plans he has for us and he alone knows the future. A person could be right on the verge of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, I do not want to responsible for disrupting that.

One of my best friends in the coc once told me that he called a lot of people brother figuring if he was not their brother in Christ he was by being in the same human race. I think that is a good way to live.

<quoted text>Once again all Catholic are taught the same thing. Some pick and choose. Cafeteria Catholics

Cafeteria Catholics- lol. Never heard that one before. I don't have much to say on these Catholic topics mainly because of sacred tradition, etc. The RCC adds things from a point of so-called "church authority"- and that I wholeheartedly disagree with. Its not much difference than Mormonism- the Bible plus other writings. No POPE has authority nor does the RCC. I find nothing in the Bible to back up the teachings of the RCC thus I will not argue from outside sources.

<quoted text>Mike, I still see the same similarities between you and Johnny/Heath. I think you are presenting a side of the catholic church that is not the common teaching. The missing element is always GRACE within any legalistic church/denomination. They always honor tradition over Grace. All churches are filled with sinners and hopefully they know what they once were without the grace of God. The one true church syndrome is defective at it's core. Jesus has only one true church, that part is true but no body of believers has the authority to judge/cast out based on human hierarchy. That would be like saying that only republicans can true christians.hi·er·ar·chy/&#712;h&#299;(&#6 01;)&#716;rärk&#275;/NounA system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority.The upper echelons of a hierarchical system; those in authority.

I present the official teaching of the CC. It is in a book and anybody can read it free online if you want to check it.

How is the one true church defective doctrine defective if Jesus said he would build a Church, not churches, and it will the pillar of truth and never fail.

This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us,... so that the world may know that you have sent me." The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

AS he was being put to death he emphasized the doctrine of one true Church.

All a non Christian has to do is point to all of the Christian Churches in existence and say ask is this unity.

As for as hierarchy, the Bible proves the hierarchy of the CC. Who picked the leaders of the early Church? The Church did starting with Jesus until today.

We dont decide what Priest is assigned to our parish. The Bishop decides. .Jesus or the Apostles never said the people in the pews should run the Church. They are the sheep and the Church is the Shepherd.

Johnny and Heath can do what they want. They have no Authority above them. They might get fired like you can fire your pastor but then they can go down the road and open their own Church.

Does the fact that baptism is into forgiveness mean that forgiveness can only be obtained by understanding the purpose of baptism?

Where do we see that Baptism is "into forgiveness of sin?" The baptism of John did not forgive sins. If it did than when Jesus was baptized He was forgiven of sin which we know was not the case. The majority of passages that address salvation never mention baptism let alone make the understanding of it a requirement of salvation. The only one that I am familiar with that appears too is Acts 2:38 which should be translated, "on account of the remission of your sins" indicating that baptism is something that takes place after salvation. Eph. 2:8-10 and John 3;16-18 makes it clear that faith and grace are the paths to salvation. 1 Cor. 11:12-14 indicate that when a person repents of their sin and puts their faith in Christ for salvation, they are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Whether they know this has taken place does not change what has happened. I have written more on this subject at http://gbcwashingtonin.com/BST%20-%20Baptism.... .

<quoted text>Where do we see that Baptism is "into forgiveness of sin?" The baptism of John did not forgive sins. If it did than when Jesus was baptized He was forgiven of sin which we know was not the case. The majority of passages that address salvation never mention baptism let alone make the understanding of it a requirement of salvation. The only one that I am familiar with that appears too is Acts 2:38 which should be translated, "on account of the remission of your sins" indicating that baptism is something that takes place after salvation. Eph. 2:8-10 and John 3;16-18 makes it clear that faith and grace are the paths to salvation. 1 Cor. 11:12-14 indicate that when a person repents of their sin and puts their faith in Christ for salvation, they are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Whether they know this has taken place does not change what has happened. I have written more on this subject at http://gbcwashingtonin.com/BST%20-%20Baptism.... .

Thanks Lou. However, I disagree with some of the points you have made thus far. I don't have time to address it all right now. Most of your points have been addressed on other threads on here. Perhaps Dave or someone will comment further. I have a busy schedule today. I will read the link tonight. Again, thanks.

<quoted text>Cafeteria Catholics- lol. Never heard that one before. I don't have much to say on these Catholic topics mainly because of sacred tradition, etc. The RCC adds things from a point of so-called "church authority"- and that I wholeheartedly disagree with. Its not much difference than Mormonism- the Bible plus other writings. No POPE has authority nor does the RCC. I find nothing in the Bible to back up the teachings of the RCC thus I will not argue from outside sources.

There is an enormous amount of difference between Catholics and Mormonism. We have only the Bible as our written authority, unchanged from the Council of Rome in 382 AD. That is when the Bible came into existence. The CC was started by Jesus in 32 AD.

Now the Mormon Church was started by a man like all non Catholic Church except Jews. He kept changing what God revealed to him. They did add the book of Mormon to the Bible and all that strange stuff. I read the book of Mormon and invited some missionaries in one time because I enjoy all kinds of history.

Lets get back to what you say about Tradition. The Church existed for 350 years without a Bible, so the Bible alone is disproved right there.

When you think about Tradition (oral teaching) lets go farther than what the Bible says about it. For example Paul telling Bishop Timothy to remember his teachings both by letter and Tradition and lets get to one that says there would not be enough books in the world to contain everything Jesus did.

An average person , it he tried could read the NT in about 12 -14 hours, so lets call that 1 day.

Jesus lived with the Apostles almost day and night for 3 years and all he taught was a day's worth of Truth?

Also less than half of the Apostles either did not write anything or their writings did not survive but they still taught.

Jesus left us a Church with the truth to teach us. He did not leave us a book. His church, which speaks for God, at least that is what he said, decided to sift through all of the hundreds of scriptures around and decided which ones where the inspired words of God, 350 after Jesus died.

Only the CC made copies and protected it for 1500 years until the printing press.

All Christians accept that decision at least for the NT. Father Luther trash canned 7 books, because they back up some of the teachings he didnt like.

<quoted text>Cafeteria Catholics- lol. Never heard that one before. I don't have much to say on these Catholic topics mainly because of sacred tradition, etc. The RCC adds things from a point of so-called "church authority"- and that I wholeheartedly disagree with. Its not much difference than Mormonism- the Bible plus other writings. No POPE has authority nor does the RCC. I find nothing in the Bible to back up the teachings of the RCC thus I will not argue from outside sources.

That is a sticking point with me as well. How do you argue against things that are the language of Ashdod, no authority in them whatsoever? You can't convince someone from the scriptures of their error when scripture takes a back seat to everything else.

We make Biblical points, then get told to look at history or the writings of early church fathers. Bah Ashdod!

But do notice-"cafeteria Catholics"-this almost sounds like the old "they were never saved to begin with" argument. I guess good and honest catholics can't have doctrinal disagreements either?

I have a busy day ahead too Randy, so I won't comment much more til later tonight either.

<quoted text>Where do we see that Baptism is "into forgiveness of sin?" The baptism of John did not forgive sins. If it did than when Jesus was baptized He was forgiven of sin which we know was not the case. The majority of passages that address salvation never mention baptism let alone make the understanding of it a requirement of salvation. The only one that I am familiar with that appears too is Acts 2:38 which should be translated, "on account of the remission of your sins" indicating that baptism is something that takes place after salvation. Eph. 2:8-10 and John 3;16-18 makes it clear that faith and grace are the paths to salvation. 1 Cor. 11:12-14 indicate that when a person repents of their sin and puts their faith in Christ for salvation, they are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Whether they know this has taken place does not change what has happened. I have written more on this subject at http://gbcwashingtonin.com/BST%20-%20Baptism.... .

"For" in Acts 2:38 is eis, literally translated as into, or with a view to remission of sins. It has a fundamental idea of motion towards. "Because" or on account of is not an accurate translation.

<quoted text>That is a sticking point with me as well. How do you argue against things that are the language of Ashdod, no authority in them whatsoever? You can't convince someone from the scriptures of their error when scripture takes a back seat to everything else.We make Biblical points, then get told to look at history or the writings of early church fathers. Bah Ashdod!But do notice-"cafeteria Catholics"-this almost sounds like the old "they were never saved to begin with" argument. I guess good and honest catholics can't have doctrinal disagreements either?I have a busy day ahead too Randy, so I won't comment much more til later tonight either.

The whole sticking point is Sola Scriptura. The Catholic Church teaches it means one thing on only one thing. It is 1 Truth.

Protestants say it can mean different things to different people.

Every Catholic is presumed saved the day he was baptized and the day he is forgiven by God for any mortal sins he may have committed. It is impossible for any Catholic not be have been saved at least once. I was saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved.

Catholics have had doctrinal disagreements since 32 AD. You remember the requirement of circumcision of Gentiles by some Bishops. What happened, it was solved by the Council of Jerusalem and the was sent out to all the Bishops by Paul and Barnabas.

Exact same thing happens today.

How are they solved in Protestant Churches. They split up and start a new Church.

<quoted text>I present the official teaching of the CC. It is in a book and anybody can read it free online if you want to check it.How is the one true church defective doctrine defective if Jesus said he would build a Church, not churches, and it will the pillar of truth and never fail.This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us,... so that the world may know that you have sent me." The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.AS he was being put to death he emphasized the doctrine of one true Church.All a non Christian has to do is point to all of the Christian Churches in existence and say ask is this unity.As for as hierarchy, the Bible proves the hierarchy of the CC. Who picked the leaders of the early Church? The Church did starting with Jesus until today.We dont decide what Priest is assigned to our parish. The Bishop decides..Jesus or the Apostles never said the people in the pews should run the Church. They are the sheep and the Church is the Shepherd.Johnny and Heath can do what they want. They have no Authority above them. They might get fired like you can fire your pastor but then they can go down the road and open their own Church.

Jesus is the good shepherd and there is no apostolic succession.

Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

A bishop is not an apostle and neither is the Pope. The way the catholic hierarchy runs the church is like a king or dictator, if the wrong one gets the power they can corrupt the whole.

I have never said there was more than one church but that one church is not the catholics nor the church of Christ or the baptist. Although true christians can be found in all of them. For that reason I do agree with the catholic meaning as "universal church". However catholics generally use the term to mean "only" their church-bad idea.

However if I could see the catholic church without all of the corruption and evil attached to it, I might reconsider. There is no perfect church or perfect people-we do have a perfect savior who desires that we be united.

Mike, people here will tell you that I accept anyone as a Christian which is not true. I do however have a difficult time condemning others to hell because I believe God has the ultimate authority to do that not mere men like me. God knows the plans he has for us and he alone knows the future. A person could be right on the verge of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, I do not want to responsible for disrupting that.One of my best friends in the coc once told me that he called a lot of people brother figuring if he was not their brother in Christ he was by being in the same human race. I think that is a good way to live.

You and I have no Authority to condemn anybody to hell.

We have the responsibly to get us, our family and as many others as we can to heaven.

I believe anybody's best chance is the Catholic Church. It was started by Jesus and he promised it will be here when he returns

I would have not converted and break the hearts of my family if I didn't. They can see what a difference it has made in my life and have accepted it.

<quoted text>Jesus is the good shepherd and there is no apostolic succession.Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.A bishop is not an apostle and neither is the Pope. The way the catholic hierarchy runs the church is like a king or dictator, if the wrong one gets the power they can corrupt the whole.I have never said there was more than one church but that one church is not the catholics nor the church of Christ or the baptist. Although true christians can be found in all of them. For that reason I do agree with the catholic meaning as "universal church". However catholics generally use the term to mean "only" their church-bad idea.However if I could see the catholic church without all of the corruption and evil attached to it, I might reconsider. There is no perfect church or perfect people-we do have a perfect savior who desires that we be united.

There is a Perfect Church. The one Jesus started. There are imperfect men in the Church and always has been. There have been bad Popes and Bishops and Priests, but the Church teachings on faith and morals are perfect. They are the Jesus taught the Apostles.

The "small t" traditions are just that. The Rosary for example. You can be a great Catholic and never say the rosary or ask Mary to pray for you. That is not a requirement. On Ash Wed, if do not want to receive the ashes on your forehead you don't have to. IF you eat meat on Friday during lent, you are not going to hell. It is simple fasting, which the Bible suggests is a good thing to do.

A Bishop is not an apostle, he is a successor to the Apostles. The Pope is the successor to Peter, the Vicar of Christ.

What did Jesus set up? The Kingdom of God. A Kingdom has an ultimate authority? In history when the King left his city, he gave literal keys to his Kingdom to the 2nd in command. There were the keys to the gates of the Kingdom and keys to the treasury.

Jesus gave these Keys to Peter and his successors because he was ascending to heaven.

If you believe in SS, then you believe Jesus left us a democracy with no Authority.

There will be no total unity as long as SS is somebody's doctrine.But a person can be in unity with Jesus' Church and the rest of the 1.2 Billion whenever he hears the call and acts on it.

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