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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010) BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

What part of the word "warranty" do they not understand? Do they understand the word "litigation"?

They came back with offering to cover it under "good will" "one time repair", which does sound better than paying for it, but still not fully under the new car warranty. (generally this is a way for manufacturers to avoid "setting a precedent" of something they may not want to cover for others)

I think if they agree to clean the drain tubes when the car is getting oil changed etc as some others are here, that sounds ok ---- otherwise it is just going to happen again....

I did mention the SIB to my CA, so we'll see if that helps matters too.

I had the sunroof gaskets and tubes cleaned by dealer about a year ago. I had water spots on the headliner and wetness in the footwell.

Its back! We have had a lot of rain but I had 1/4" water in the right rear foot well. I used the shop vac and got most of it. Now its drying out, finally some sun.

I used a piece of vacuum tube and my air hose to blow air down all 4 drain tubes. All air passed through, I really did't hear see any blockage. Is it possible that too much rain water entered , beyond the capacity of the drains?

I spoke at length to the dealer shop foreman about preventative maintenance.

(Don't know anything about the sedan but you can probably extrapolate)

It is particularly difficult on the E61/wagon, because the two rear drain tubes are under the fixed glass at the very rear of the cassette and require the headliner removed etc to get to.

The two front tubes are accessible and as sunroof drain tubes go, pretty tiny (assume the rears are the same).

If you have one of them clogged and the car on an incline with the clogged one lower, you are in trouble.

My dealer was not willing to clean the tubes with every oil change.
However, we did come up with a way to self diagnose if they need cleaning.

Using a SMALL watering can, park the car on an incline nose down. Put water through the each front tube and check it comes out promptly behind the front wheels.

Now put the car on the incline tail down (nose up). You can't reach the rear drains but you can pour it into each side of the drain channel on the outer edge of the cassette (typically the dirty bit). The water should run down each side back to the drain tube and come out in front (?) of the each rear wheel.

So I figure I'll do this once a year or so, and if it is clogged, have the dealer clean them out. The only issue I can see here is it might be difficult to detect a partial clog.

I was also given the "don't park under a tree" but in the Pacific NW that is difficult to avoid.

Now that I understand how it all works, it is pretty clear to me this is a design flaw.

Design a really poor sunroof drain system, that clogs easily. Then have it so when it overflows the water drains into the trunk bay with the most expensive electronics in the car. And then make it somewhere where the owner can't detect it is full of water until it is too late.

My Subaru Forester is parked under the same trees, and never an issue with clogging.

My final joke on the subject: what the E61 really needs is a BILGE PUMP.

I didn't push the dealer on their position that the bulletin only covers the older sunroof designs. (by my read it also covers clogging on 08 - I was not able to get a copy of an 08 warranty RO from anyone here)

All 4 drains checked. The rear two are accessible by loosening the headliner at the rear. You can work from the rear door area to snip the plastic tie and pull off the flexible tube that connects to the sun roof drains. Once again no indication of clogs. I can find were the two rear come out, but I can try some water and see where it drains.

For the two fron drains, I have heard all sorts of exist points, but I found them, DUh!

The front drains exit right inside the door area between the two hindges. There is a black flexible conduit for all the electrical and right behind that is a black tube with a 90 degree bend downward. One on each front door. So no mystery no more on the front ones.

Why does any water get in there in the first place with the sunroof closed? Isn't it like any other window that has a seal? When it pours sideways in a windy rainstorm you don't get water coming in through the windows...

There is a TSB on this problem in cars produced prior to 10/05. Apparently there was a design defect that allowed the drains to clog and water to pour into the car. Despite the knowledge of the defective part, and the fact that a known defective part is on my friend's car, BMW is still denying warranty coverage. They would not even allow him to speak with somebody above the phone operator level at BMW USA.

I have been a loyal BMW buyer for 13 years now. In that time I have owned 14 BMW's. In my experience BMW has always stood behind its products. But I must say that BMW's refusal to honor the warranty when the part is known to be defective is reprehensible. It would make me consider not buying another BMW...

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to resolve this issue, short of retaining an attorney?

There is the problem: Your friend, unlike you, has not been a BMW owner for 13 years. I suspect if he could prove that he too was a BMW owner for so long, he might have come up with success.

What kind of approach did he use? Did he follow the chain of command, including with the dealership?

Sounds like your friend has no previous military or corporate experience. Chain of command assists tremendously. Certainly, he could have presented his research to someone in that chain of command. Somebody there could have escalated the call to a higher authority.

In regard to hiring an attorney, cost to go to court would likely be about $3500.

Cost to fix leak: a ton less.

Cost to smile again: priceless.

Talk to your friend.

As far as his option to try litigation, dealers and manufacts here this 25 times a day. 99 and 44/100 percent fail to do so because they can't afford it.

On the other hand, manufacts have attorney on retainer. It costs them nothing extra other than the annual retainer.

I recently noticed stains on my headliner. I was having issues with sunroof seals, and electrical problems. After going to several dealers with these problems I found one that fixed everything. Including replacing my battery. The dealer where I bought the car claimed to have replaced my entire sunroof. The next said there were no problems. The third (when I noticed the stains) replaced the seals unclogged the drains shampooed the headliner. The third dealer also got to the bottom of my electrical problems.

It pays off to try different dealerships to find the best service.

BTW I did make several calls to BMW NA through out this process. I think that all of my documentation was helpful when it came to them stepping in to rplace things that weren't covered under the warranty.

All 4 drains checked. The rear two are accessible by loosening the headliner at the rear. You can work from the rear door area to snip the plastic tie and pull off the flexible tube that connects to the sun roof drains.

You have a sedan, right? The wagon sunroof is bigger, and the shop foreman said getting to the rear drains is a major PITA on the wagon.

Why does any water get in there in the first place with the sunroof closed? Isn't it like any other window that has a seal? When it pours sideways in a windy rainstorm you don't get water coming in through the windows...

That I don't know. I do know the seal on my Subaru is more of a positive seal, now I look at the BMW sunroof closely while it fits flush I can see how water gets in when it is closed.

Seems critical that the drains work correctly, I can't believe more owners aren't impacted by this.

Also if it is overflowing, you should be able to examine the channel in the cassette and see it is full, but I suspect the edge is low enough telling the difference between a full cassette drain channel and a wet but relatively empty one is difficult.

I would also prefer a sunroof that drips on my head when it is full. That way I know to take it to the dealer rather than dealing with mysterious and expensive electronics failures.

I recently noticed stains on my headliner. I was having issues with sunroof seals, and electrical problems. After going to several dealers with these problems I found one that fixed everything. Including replacing my battery. The dealer where I bought the car claimed to have replaced my entire sunroof. The next said there were no problems. The third (when I noticed the stains) replaced the seals unclogged the drains shampooed the headliner. The third dealer also got to the bottom of my electrical problems.

It pays off to try different dealerships to find the best service.

BTW I did make several calls to BMW NA through out this process. I think that all of my documentation was helpful when it came to them stepping in to rplace things that weren't covered under the warranty.

My '06 BMW 530xi experienced electronic failure twice ('08 & '09) while my wife was driving to work at night while it was raining. The lights went out and the windshield wipers stopped working. The dealer did not inform us that there was a TSB related to this problem and labeled it a failure due to environmental influences. The total cost for repairs were approximately $7000( none of which was covered by our extended warranty). The panoramic sunroof drain was the problem each time and no maintenance was ever performed to prevent recurrence. No solution is forthcoming from BMW North America. Clearly this is a safety issue that is not being advertised or solved. Any interest in a class action suit about this recurring problem?

Electronic failure has happened to my BMW 530xi wagon twice ('08 & '09). The toal cost was about $7000. Neither the dealer nor BMW NA would cover any of the repairs under an extended warranty. Their claim is that it is environmental influences. I believe a class action suit would get the attention of BMW NA concerning this safety issue. Any takers?

Electronic failure has happened to my BMW 530xi wagon twice ('08 & '09). The toal cost was about $7000. Neither the dealer nor BMW NA would cover any of the repairs under an extended warranty. Their claim is that it is environmental influences. I believe a class action suit would get the attention of BMW NA concerning this safety issue. Any takers?

Yes...what is involved?
I slowly trickled water into the sunroof tray today...the front drains through tubes exiting where the front door hinge is. The REAR: exits at a point found when you follow the roof line back to the gap where the hatch is. When I opened the hatch, I saw water running out from the rear-most point of the slot holding the rails. It then ran down just outside the seal for the hatch, but also inside the trunk along the track that holds the trunk cover. There is a piece of plastic by the roof seen when the trunk is open that looks like it is intended to divert the water to the outside area of the seal, but water runs UNDER it...I think this is the design flaw. This description stinks but if you try it you will see what I mean. This is a very poor design, especially considering all the electronics are back there. I don't think the rear drains (which are apparently hard to clean per the dealership) have to be clogged for there to be a problem. Now, if someone could explain to me how the sunroof lets in water when it is closed, I would be happy.

Yes...what is involved?
I slowly trickled water into the sunroof tray today...the front drains through tubes exiting where the front door hinge is. The REAR: exits at a point found when you follow the roof line back to the gap where the hatch is. When I opened the hatch, I saw water running out from the rear-most point of the slot holding the rails. It then ran down just outside the seal for the hatch, but also inside the trunk along the track that holds the trunk cover. There is a piece of plastic by the roof seen when the trunk is open that looks like it is intended to divert the water to the outside area of the seal, but water runs UNDER it...I think this is the design flaw. This description stinks but if you try it you will see what I mean. This is a very poor design, especially considering all the electronics are back there. I don't think the rear drains (which are apparently hard to clean per the dealership) have to be clogged for there to be a problem. Now, if someone could explain to me how the sunroof lets in water when it is closed, I would be happy.

This is normal and part of the design. The problem is if it penetrates the cabin. Usually from the headliner and into the covered storage bins under the rear windows and then into the tire well and electrical area. You have to take everything out of the spare tire area, down to the bottom, to really tell if it's dry.

How can BMW-NA deny a recall of autos that have such a blatant safety issue? I'm awaiting a reply to my letter letting them know this is a recurring problem that can happen to any BMW wagon that has this design. If there are any others that have had this problem, it's time to let BMW know how serious the problem is. Please let me know. If you keep quiet, BMW will continue to ignore the problem.

This is normal and part of the design. The problem is if it penetrates the cabin. Usually from the headliner and into the covered storage bins under the rear windows and then into the tire well and electrical area. You have to take everything out of the spare tire area, down to the bottom, to really tell if it's dry.

If it is normal and part of the design to have water that gets into the sunroof track drain into the hatch where all the electronics are, then that is a sh**ty design.

If it is normal and part of the design to have water that gets into the sunroof track drain into the hatch where all the electronics are, then that is a sh**ty design.

I park my Subaru under the same trees as the BMW, no issues there. It is a pretty lousy design, both in terms of how easily it clogs compares to other cars and how you can't tell it is clogged and what it destroys when the water wicks down into the trunk.

I found this geat long air blower nozzle which will easily fit under the fixed rear glass to reach the rear drain holes to blow them out. I haven't tried it out yet but I think this will be less work than dropping the headliner. Only question is do you also want to put some solution (simple green or whatever) down the hoses to break up any debris lodged there before blowing it out with air.

According to Mr. William Stewart of National Customer Relations & Services for BMWNA: 'This issue, as previously explained, was not due to a defect in material or workmanship.' Apparently, when BMW designs and installs an substandard drain for a panoramic sunroof that can cause thousands of dollars of damage and could result in system failures (lights, windshield wipers, radios, etc. ) that might result in bodily injury or death, they are not to be held responsible or accountable. Moreover, they do not advise how to prevent the problem in their manual nor do they advise their highly trained service personnel that this preventable problem should be part routine maintenance when service is rendered. I find this explanation by Mr. Stewart to be ludicrous and highly unacceptable. If you've had this problem, please consider contacting Mr. Stewart and let him know about your level of dissatisfaction.

According to Mr. William Stewart of National Customer Relations & Services for BMWNA: 'This issue, as previously explained, was not due to a defect in material or workmanship.' Apparently, when BMW designs and installs an substandard drain for a panoramic sunroof that can cause thousands of dollars of damage and could result in system failures (lights, windshield wipers, radios, etc. ) that might result in bodily injury or death, they are not to be held responsible or accountable. Moreover, they do not advise how to prevent the problem in their manual nor do they advise their highly trained service personnel that this preventable problem should be part routine maintenance when service is rendered. I find this explanation by Mr. Stewart to be ludicrous and highly unacceptable. If you've had this problem, please consider contacting Mr. Stewart and let him know about your level of dissatisfaction.

Unfortunately it's the same with all car manufacturers.......DENY, DENY, DENY.
You would hope that BMW was better than the rest, but maybe not.