As for the meaning of NS, this is from Hitler:
1 / " If you think that NS is a political party like the others, you are making a great mistake".
2 / this said to some of his closest comrades " I know I am not the one who has to come".
Also NS is about making a "community" of people, not necesseraly a nation. Thus that after the war europe was going to be divided in racial ethnic regions, each one under direction from a former WSS officer from the region.
For those interested, i can send the map of what it was going to be.

Last note : the barbarians are inside, so please stop arguing amongst yourselves and unite before it's too late, you descendants will never forgive you.

Oh, and if the statement you wrote was true, the burden of proof would be on you, and not me.

The historical record, as represented by the German government at the time, on Bromberg "Bloody Sunday" and related incidents -- 58,000 claimed dead or missing by Feb 1940.The German invasion was Sep 1939, but it's important to understand that many of the outrages had preceded the German invasion. This was proved by the amount of decomposition of the bodies. Thus, these atrocities cannot be excused simply as reprisals for the German invasion (which would be wrong anyway). They included 19 year-old girls with their faces smashed, amputations, disembowelments, shot thru' the eye, death-trauma births, you name it. Poles had been merrily slaughtering anything or anybody German since at least as early as April 1939, with smaller incidents stretching back to the close of WW I -- you haven't been told that by the Mass Media, or the fact that these atrocities were one of the main causes for the German invasion of Poland, something that was meant by the Germans to be a local solution to a local problem. Germany had already done the "right thing" by protesting in writing to the League of Nations literally dozens of times. The League of Nations did nothing, yet the problem had to be solved. [Photo at left: Polski marshal Rydz-Smigly, burdened with the weight of numerous medals. As soon as his army started to lose, this bragging Polish "warrior" ran away to Romania, leaving his troops in a lurch! Yet to this day, no opprobrium is cast his way by the establishment media. Why not?]

Subsequent to the German invasion, Britain declared war on Germany, yet after the Soviet Union invaded the eastern Polish territory only a few weeks later, Britain neglected to declare war on the Soviet Union. Why not, if the integrity of Poland's borders was so important? Inquiring minds want to know. After using these incidents as obvious pretext (the real purpose being to take down Germany as an economic rival and arch anti-NWO force), Britain then began bombing the Ruhr Valley the day after Churchill took office (May 10, 1940), specifically targeting civilian areas in addition to industrial and military targets. The rest is history -- a shameful and gut-wrenching one.

On Bromberg Bloody Sunday, thousands of ethnic Germans were slaughtered like pigs in an alley because the majority "poles" (the "slavic", non-Teutonic types, really Turco-Ugaric, Hunnic, Tartar and Mongoloid residue from the old "Dark Age" invasions) knew they could do so with total impunity. Marshal Pilsudski had died, and Britain's leaders had made unconditional guarantees to Poland as a pretense to ensure maximum political tensions in Eastern Europe to serve the interests of Soviet Russia. Poles in official capacity were openly laying claim to ancient German territory, were engaging in the crudest pea-brained saber-rattling, had engaged in border violations and boasted of marching thru' the gates of Berlin in 3 weeks (or days, depending on which buzzing brain was indulging in the fantasy). Poland had even stolen a chunk of "Czechoslovak" territory in early '39.

* * * * *

Few today weep for these innocent people. No Tom Brokaw pursing his lips over photos of them with a concerned expression, like he had just gulped a bushel of lemons. No Charles Kurrault telling folksy anecdotes about them, ending with "no, dear ones, we will not forget". No Richard D. Haffner, Ph.D. furrowing his professorial brow about them on his PBS talking head program. Nope, you'll see no paeans to these forgotten victims in our controlled, sycophantic media.

These files will help to set the historical record straight by providing some balance. If you want the "official" version, just turn on your TV set, or go to a major bookstore. It's all there.

"The [NATO] bombing war also violates and shreds the basic provisions of the United Nations Charter and other conventions and treaties; the attack on Yugoslavia constitutes the most brazen international aggression since the Nazis attacked Poland to prevent 'Polish atrocities' [his quotation marks]against Germans", said Walter J. Rockler, former prosecutor to the Nuremberg war crimes trials, in a letter to the Chicago Tribune, May 10, 1999. Walter needed to pull up a chair and take a deeper look at the evidence, without prosecutorial malice or prejudice. Rockler's wonderful perspicacity regarding the illegal bombing of Yugoslavia did not extend to similar revelations he may have had about Germany. An OBIT (click) identified Walt as "the son of Russian immigrant parents". This is usually a telling phrase...

So look now at material you will have a tough time finding in your local library, or anywhere else for that matter . . .

I'm just going to post some things I found that from nations that are good reflections on NSist Germany:

April 21.1942 Spain pledged 1,000,000 men if necessary for the defeat of Russia. (Berlin radio quoted Señor Suñer as saying that Spain hoped the Axis powers would win the war because "a victory of the Allies would be tantamount to a victory of bolshevism." Times, April 22, 1942, p. 10.)

-this was an independant move by Vichy France for the Slovak Republic, a nation that would not form again until after the fall of the USSR.

March 6.1941 Britain severed diplomatic relations with Bulgaria. ("From, the nature of the German military movements in Bulgaria it is *clear that the German aim is to menace and, if necessary, attack Great Britain's ally, Greece.

"By their agreement with the German Government the Bul*garian Government have facilitated the realization of this German aim and, apart from other measures which they have taken, they have gone so far as to proceed in connection with it to a large* measure of mobilization. His Majesty's Government can only conclude from this that the Bulgarian Government, so far from only desiring to maintain neutrality in the present conflict, are *now prepared actively to collaborate with Germany." Times,, Mar. 6, 1941, p. 2.)

May 12.1941 Yugoslavia protested the creation of the "Independent State of Croatia." ("It is, of course, a cardinal principle of interna*tional law that military occupation of territory in the course of hostilities does not change the juridical status of the territory thus occupied and that occupation by enemy armies provides no legal basis for the establishment of a new juridical status within. such territory." Bulletin, Vol. IV, No. 102, p. 682. Cf. May 3, supra.)

June 15.1941 Croatia signed agreement with Axis respecting its interests. ("Croatia gives its full adherence to the principles and reasons which inspire the rulers of Italy, Germany, and Japan in consti*tuting a united front for creation of a new order in the European and Asiatic world." Times, June 16, 1941, p. 3. Cf. May 12, 18, supra.)

June 25.1941 Sweden granted passage of one division of German troops from Norway to Finland. ("Our chief interest is to maintain our liberty and stay outside of the conflict, and the government came to the conclusion that the only way to do so was to accept the German-Finnish demand." Ibid., p. 5.)

June 26. 1941 Helsinki bombed by Soviet planes. (President Ryti declared that in this fight "we are not alone; Great Germany, . . had decided to wage war against the Soviet and other nations have joined Germany. Russia in this task is facing a united front stretching from the White Sea to the Black Sea." Times, June 27, pp. 1, 4; cf. also Finland, pp. 100‑105, and Times, June 29, p. 17.)

August 12.1941 Marshal Pétain announced full collaboration with Germany. ("Our relations with Germany have been defined by an armis*tice convention the character of which could only be provisional. Dragging out this situation makes it that much harder to support in so far as it governs relations between two great nations." Ibid., p. 4. Cf. Rice, p. 69.)

November 26.1941 Anti‑Comintern Pact of Nov. 25, 1936, renewed for five years by Germany, Japan, Italy, Hungary, Spain, Man*chukuo, Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, Rumania, Slo*vakia, and Nanking regime in China. (". . . used by Hitler solely as an instrument to wage a war of conquest and domina*tion against free peoples, . . ." Bulletin, Vol. V, No. 127, pp. 434 f. ". . . recognizing that international agreements made by them to ward off activity of the Communist International have proved themselves in the best possible manner and, in the con*viction that united interest of their countries further demand their close cooperation against a common enemy, . . ." Times, Nov. 26, 1941, p. 12.)

December 6.1941 Britain declared war on Finland, Hungary, and Rumania. ("No satisfactory replies having been received from the Finnish, Hungarian, and Rumanian Governments to notes addressed to them last week," as to ending wars with Russia. Times, Decem*ber 6, 1941, p.1. "The Finnish Government's reply showed no disposition to respond to this overture nor have they ceased to pursue aggressive military operations on territory of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, an ally of Great Britain, in the closest collaboration with Germany.
"The Finnish Government have sought to contend that their war against Soviet Russia does not involve participation in the general European war. This contention His Majesty's Government find it impossible to accept." Ibid., Dec. 7, 1941, p. 19.
"The Hungarian [Rumanian], Government have for many months been pursuing aggressive military operations on territory of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, an ally of Great Britain, in the closest collaboration with Germany, thus participating in the general European war and making substantial contribution to the German war effort." Ibid., p. 19.)

-Britain's way or war.

June 10. 1941 Italy declared war on Britain and France. (". . . Italy con*siders herself at war with France [and Great Britain]." Bulletin, Vol. V, No. 130, p. 553. "Mussolini replied that he was doing nothing but fulfilling the pledges that he had given to Hitler." Times, June 11, 1940, p. 12. "We take the field against the plutocratic and reactionary democracies who always have blocked the march and frequently plotted against the existence of the Italian people. . . .

July 19.1940 Chancellor Hitler offered peace to Britain. ("For millions of other persons, great suffering will begin. Mr. Churchill, or perhaps others, for once believe me when I predict a great empire will be destroyed, an empire that it was never my intention to destroy or even to harm.

"I do realize that this struggle, if it continues, can end only with the complete annihilation of one or the other of the two adversaries. Mr. Churchill may believe this will be Germany. I know that it will be Britain." Ibid., July 20, 1940, p. 5.)

November 20.1940 Hungary adhered to Axis tripartite pact. ("Germany, Italy, and Japan concluded an alliance to call a halt to further expansion of the war, which is severely burdening humanity, and thus give the world a lasting just peace as fast as possible.

"The big powers are fighting for the establishing of a new order promoting the development of peoples in regions to which they are entitled and in the furtherance of their well‑being.

"Hungary was thrown to the ground through the unjust, demoralizing Paris peace dictates and during two decades turned to those powers for help which were suffering an equal fate and the same injustices while fighting for their vital rights and re*vision of the dictates. Ibid., Nov. 21, 1940, p. 6. Cf. Sept. 27, supra.)

November 23.1940 Rumania adhered to Axis pact. (". . . we are carrying out a State act today which is not only historically important for the life and development of the Rumanian people but also for a Europe arising from the sacrifices of present‑day war.

"It is . . . a fundamental act of new orientation of the Rumanian State and an honest, actual contribution of the Rumanian people for the reconstruction of Europe and the world, as well as for defense of present‑day civilization, which will be rendered secure by the victory of States united in the three‑power pact.

"Animated by the desire to perfect her own forms of life, Rumania is firmly convinced her adherence to the great work of reconstruction of the world is the sole consequence of her own will for resurgence by the legionnaire movement, genitally and indissolubly with National Socialism and Fascism.

"Thus, our adherence to the three‑power pact, which took place today outwardly and formally, is a logical and natural result of a joining which long ago had taken place inwardly." Ibid., Nov. 24, 1940, p. 2.)

December 13.1942 It was announced that Anton Mussert, head of the Dutch Nazis, had been appointed Führer for Holland following a visit to Hitler's headquarters in Russia. Dr. Arthur von Seyss‑Inquart remained the supreme authority. (In the nature of a probationary leader to see if, he can bring the Netherland people nearer to Nazi‑ism. Reluctance to make Mussert a full*-fledged Premier was thought to be an indication that the Nazis had learned their lesson in Norway. Times, Dec. 14, p. 3.)

I'll find more, I know that Norway had more volunteers for the SS than for the allies and other such examples.

Wow, this thread has certainly been on heat over the last 24 hours. The old pissing contest continues!

The sad (but unsurprising) thing is, that everything presented here has already been chewed up and spat in each other's faces before, except for Bernd's completely irrelevant mentioning of the fact that I live in Australia.

In that case, Bernd, a few things you might like to note, since this is obviously of concern to you:

*****

First, I didn't choose to move to Australia. My parents did.

Second, realistically speaking, THEY didn't choose to move either. They were more or less forced to move as they would've been arrested in Communist Poland for their Solidarity-related activities.

Third, I plan to move back to Poland in a few years' time.

*****

At any rate, as Dreamstate said, where I am posting from is completely irrelevant.

The problem with this thread is that it's completely polarized. There's no middle ground, and truth is almost always to be found in the middle ground. I actually would be a lot less "cavalier" (as one poster put it) if my opponents did me the same favour. As I've said before -- and for some reason the post was taken down -- : I don't consider what I write to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Far from it. Like Dreamstate, I am well aware of the bad elements in Poland's history and don't deny their reality. But why would I acknowledge them when no-one here is willing to acknowledge the evil of the Nazis? You've got Saxon88 who screams "Holocaust!" at the mere mention of Dresden, then considers the complete annihiliation of Warsaw as a legitimate military undertaking. He clearly hasn't read about the cold-blooded butchery and systematic dynamiting of the city that occurred not just DURING the Uprising but before and after it. That's just one example.

The fact is, these threads don't convert anyone. People might learn the odd interesting fact, but even then -- what's a "fact" here anymore? For me, it's an obvious fact that Germany's "lost land" after WW1 is a myth, used by the Nazis as propaganda to legitimize their invasion of Poland. Yet even this point, which one would think could be solved quite easily with the use of maps, remains a point of contention. So indeed, anyone who hasn't already made their choice -- Nazi or anti-Nazi -- will probably just leave this thread confused and wondering why WNs bother debating such crap. If this is indeed what happens, I don't blame them.

I know where I stand, and it's obvious where Dreamstate, Bernd, Saxon88 etc stand. None of us are going to budge, so it's kind of comical that we keep throwing pies at each other's faces when there's so many more important issues to talk about.

If posters here agree to stop slagging Poland, you won't see the word "Poland" mentioned in my posts. Poland's not perfect -- no country is, of course -- and I can take it when someone has a legitimate, original criticism about it. But hearing the old "anti-German persecution" stories rehashed over and over again is getting really old; and surely I don't need to remind everyone of the centuries of persecution the Poles experienced under Prussian and Nazi rule.

History is a mess. Why we keep sifting through this mess is something we might need to think about.

If posters here agree to stop slagging Poland, you won't see the word "Poland" mentioned in my posts. Poland's not perfect -- no country is, of course -- and I can take it when someone has a legitimate, original criticism about it. But hearing the old "anti-German persecution" stories rehashed over and over again is getting really old; and surely I don't need to remind everyone of the centuries of persecution the Poles experienced under Prussian and Nazi rule.

History is a mess. Why we keep sifting through this mess is something we might need to think about.

I don't care how "old" these stories may be for yourself. Your personal oppinion and bias does not change their relevance when considering "WWII: Who was right: Germany or the Allies" In fact their observation is critical when determining the content of this thread.

To neglect that aspect would, as earlier indicated, suit those whom condemn the actions of the National Socialist government and ideology. Just as modern day historians whom completely leave out such important details so as to cater for their ulterior motives.

You can remind us all you want (as you do) of persecutions of Poles which happened in centuries prior, however its relation to the thread at hand is of dubious importance when considering that it happened at a different time. Doing so only illustrates the attempts to drag this debate into one of Polish righteousness and throw guilt upon others despite its irrelevance.

Your very mentioning of those wrong doings to your own people only highlights what we, in defence of Germanys actions of 1939 are only trying to say. That such actions are contemptable by all decent men and honourably going to war to bring a stop to these actions is by no means wrong.

I don't care how "old" these stories may be for yourself. Your personal oppinion and bias does not change their relevance when considering "WWII: Who was right: Germany or the Allies" In fact their observation is critical when determining the content of this thread.

To neglect that aspect would, as earlier indicated, suit those whom condemn the actions of the National Socialist government and ideology. Just as modern day historians whom completely leave out such important details so as to cater for their ulterior motives.

You're very selective with which "stories" you'd like to leave in and which you'd like to leave out. So I'm not allowed to stick up for Poland, but you, Saxon88 etc are allowed to stick up for Nazi Germany?

How does that work in formulating a fair and proper debate?

Quote:

You can remind us all you want (as you do) of persecutions of Poles which happened in centuries prior, however its relation to the thread at hand is of dubious importance when considering that it happened at a different time. Doing so only illustrates the attempts to drag this debate into one of Polish righteousness and throw guilt upon others despite its irrelevance.

History can't be debated properly until events and the issues surrounding them are set into some kind of context.

At any rate, don't be a hypocrite: as I said, if you can argue for Nazi righteousness, I can argue for Polish righteousness. The evidence is there if you want it.

Quote:

Your very mentioning of those wrong doings to your own people only highlights what we, in defence of Germanys actions of 1939 are only trying to say. That such actions are contemptable by all decent men and honourably going to war to bring a stop to these actions is by no means wrong.

"We, in defence of Germanys actions"....???

Mate, did your grandfather fight in WW2? If he did, do you reckon he was fighting for the Allies or for the Axis? A White, free Australia or Australia as a Japanese colony?

Seriously, have a think about it. Nazi Germany did not care about Australia any more than it cared about Poland, so I don't know why the hell you're so actively pro-Nazi.

I might add that the Germans hardly went to war "honourably". A fake attack was set up (in which German inmates were illegally murdered) to lend legitimacy to the Nazis' rhetoric of "Polish provocation", and the Wehrmacht poured across the border without so much as declaring war. The Germans then proceeded to wage war in a manner worthy of Dark Age barbarians; burning down villages, strafing civilian refugees with bullets etc.

You're very selective with which "stories" you'd like to leave in and which you'd like to leave out. So I'm not allowed to stick up for Poland, but you, Saxon88 etc are allowed to stick up for Nazi Germany?

How does that work in formulating a fair and proper debate?

History can't be debated properly until events and the issues surrounding them are set into some kind of context.

At any rate, don't be a hypocrite: as I said, if you can argue for Nazi righteousness, I can argue for Polish righteousness. The evidence is there if you want it.

"We, in defence of Germanys actions"....???

Mate, did your grandfather fight in WW2? If he did, do you reckon he was fighting for the Allies or for the Axis? A White, free Australia or Australia as a Japanese colony?

Seriously, have a think about it. Nazi Germany did not care about Australia any more than it cared about Poland, so I don't know why the hell you're so actively pro-Nazi.

I might add that the Germans hardly went to war "honourably". A fake attack was set up (in which German inmates were illegally murdered) to lend legitimacy to the Nazis' rhetoric of "Polish provocation", and the Wehrmacht poured across the border without so much as declaring war. The Germans then proceeded to wage war in a manner worthy of Dark Age barbarians; burning down villages, strafing civilian refugees with bullets etc.

Polish Boy COme On You know German Were Freedom Fighters Thats Why when They Came to St. Petersburg Instead Of Taking the City They Desided to Starve Its Inhabitance to death

Thank To the German Soldier who Came To Free Russia And Poland People were Starved to death For 3 Years How can You argue aggainst these facts huh Polish Boy

It is Completly Obvious To Me that Germans Came with the Cause of Freedom Or else why Would they Torch the Churches in Likino, Golitsino, Zvenigorod

Or why Would They Execute the Women and Children of Dachnaya, Malye Vezemi , Bolshie vezemi

See Folks That Proves That the Germans Wanted to Free the Russians From the Tyrany OF Communism, Food, Water, electricity, Life

Who can argue with the ten of thousand of graves all around the Minsk Road (Civilian Graves) who can argue hundredsw of thousand Starved to death In St.Petersburg ? Exactly Nobody

So Folks Before You Make Outrageous Claims Wich I might Add just Make You Look extreemly uneducated you should realy Learn History

You're very selective with which "stories" you'd like to leave in and which you'd like to leave out. So I'm not allowed to stick up for Poland, but you, Saxon88 etc are allowed to stick up for Nazi Germany?

How does that work in formulating a fair and proper debate?

I just stick to the story which created WWII. I cannot fathom how anyone can perceive standing beside the murders, rapes and torture of ethnic German citizens as standing by their country. I'm quite sure that had the majority of Polish people been fully aware of these events, the Polish patriots would have been in uproar against them, and thoroughly denouce the actions of a the few inhumane perpetrators.

I answered your stories in another thread here in revisionism which got closed by JJT in regards to Warsaw and Czechslovakia.

History can't be debated properly until events and the issues surrounding them are set into some kind of context.

At any rate, don't be a hypocrite: as I said, if you can argue for Nazi righteousness, I can argue for Polish righteousness. The evidence is there if you want it.

I'm no hypocrite.

Argue all you wish for Polands sake. That's the beauty of having an International revisionist forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polish_Boy

"We, in defence of Germanys actions"....???

Mate, did your grandfather fight in WW2? If he did, do you reckon he was fighting for the Allies or for the Axis? A White, free Australia or Australia as a Japanese colony?

Seriously, have a think about it. Nazi Germany did not care about Australia any more than it cared about Poland, so I don't know why the hell you're so actively pro-Nazi.

Mate,

My Grandfather was an engineer in New Guinea, He fought the Japanese

My Great uncle fought in Borneo against the Japanese where he was wounded. He almost received the VC.

Another Great uncle was a "Rat of Tobruk" where he fought against Rommel. I have a ring which he made from a BF-109 that he shot down.

Another great uncle was involved in the later stages of the war against Japan and participated in its occupation.

Of course they fought for White Australia. They fought for God, King and Country. If they were alive today however they would be bitter to say the least that they ultimately fought bled and died for nothing. Our nation has been handed over to the Asian hordes by political prostitutes who serve first themselves.

Ultimately, despite their courage, they fought for nothing. Australia has been handed to the Asian hordes. A mere 60 years later and its what...1/7th Asian or so ? It doesnt take a brilliant mathematician to predict the racial forecast for Australia here on in.

You will never understand why I'm so "pro-Nazi" because you are obviously unable to detach yourself from emotives and border driven nationalism. My race is my nation, therefore I understand that the probably temporary former Aryan enclave of Australia must come only after the interests of our Aryan kind. Not at its expense.

So what if Germany didn't care for Australia in WWII ? It had more than enough on its plate in its fight against half the world. I can emotionally detach myself from that fact and look at the broader situation. They needed whatever assistance they could muster, and it came in the form of Japan. So be it.

Had Britain not began a brothers war, Australia would not have followed. And interestingly enough, a war with Japan would have never eventuated. So my forebears which you emotionally try and involve into this argument would never have fought bled and died.

I'd like to see Japan even consider taking on the entire might of the British Empire at that time. Not a hope in the world Japan.

Even then however. It matters not that they fought against NS Germany and her ally Japan. It does not change my fundamental understanding of the facts and the realisation that it was one of our last, even perhaps last great chance at keeping our ancestral lands and our race pure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polish_Boy

I might add that the Germans hardly went to war "honourably". A fake attack was set up (in which German inmates were illegally murdered) to lend legitimacy to the Nazis' rhetoric of "Polish provocation", and the Wehrmacht poured across the border without so much as declaring war. The Germans then proceeded to wage war in a manner worthy of Dark Age barbarians; burning down villages, strafing civilian refugees with bullets etc.

War is war. In war you do whatever you must to achieve victory for your people and your ideology for which you fight. The villages which got burned and the civilians which were shot were reprisals for assassinations, guerilla operations. If Poland won the ground war and occupied Germany, you can bet your arse they would have done the same to quell resistance and to make minimal the casualties to their own personnel.

Can you please provide links stating the Aerial strafing of refugees ? Its new to me.

Perhaps a single crazed stuka pilot fired some shots, and so of course, the professionalism of the entire Wermacht of millions must be put into question...

We could turn this into a National Socialism vs. Communism thread, I'd have no problem with that as I'm sure others arguing our side wouldn't. By starvation, you mean seiges right? Where the Russians could've given up but instead died for their Communist ideals?

As for the Warsaw Uprising, I think we should be more specific, it was the 2nd Uprising, the 1st in April 19th 1943 was by jews in the Ghetto uprising, the second on August 1st 1944 was the underground "Home Army" that engulfed the city in house to house fighting for 63 days that paralleled that of Berlin before capitulation in 1945. Both started by insurgeants, the Poles that began the insurgency in 1944 had no chance but did it anyways and cost their countrymen dearly. The high death toll, was due in part to new heavy artillery bombing of insurgeant positions and aerial bombing of positions. Warsaw as it was to be a "stronghold" to defend vs. the Communist spring offensive that had the Wehrmacht in retreat. I'm not going to defend the shoting of civilians, this is an act that doesn't deserve any attempt at justification. However, by the description of the fighting and planning of the insurgeancy, I think it would be quite difficult to tell who was involved and who wasn't, on top of this, the SS repeatedly dropped leaflets to urge Warsaw inhabitants to leave the city and escape the fighting. As well the 14th Red Army was right on Warsaw's doorstep, Warsaw was a choke point for retreating German divisions and there was actually German vs. Russian battles there which produced civillian casualties that are included in the death tolls as Russians and Germans shelled each other. When the Polish insurgeants did capitulate on Oct. 2nd, the Geneva convention was obeyed by the Germans.

I think this is much different than the firebombing of Dresden, a non-military city swelled by thousands of escaping civillians, the open air prison camps that starved 1 million Germans to death, or the whole sale slaughter and rape by Soviets of the German population being ethnically cleansed from eastern Europe, am I wrong? The Warsaw civillian deaths would not have occured if the doomed insurgeants didn't start the conflict, there was no systematic annhilation of the inhaditants of Warsaw, it was a bloody battle and the city was made safe for the Axis soldiers to resist the Red Army advance.

It's quite frustrating also, that we seem to have to reply to every point you make while you actually ignore entire posts. I keep hearing how the Germans hated slavs with the only backing being the personal notes of 1 or 2 people's observances that are supposed to represent 80 million Germans and the entire Axis and Commentern policies without any realization of the actions that were undergone such as Serbian, Latvian etc efforts with Germany, all the nations fighting with Germany. Even the actual statements that I've found like that of Finland, Spain, Italy, Hungary, etc that pledge outright what they are fighting for and against, none of it is mentioned or debated, just the morality one action vs. another. Proud Slav gives a great post that is entirely emotional and one sided, the reason why the 3rd Reich camp speaks out, because the 3rd Reich is generalized and vilified for actions that the Allied camp themselves have paralleled.

This on top of things that occured such as the Germans helping Spain in thier civil war, giving Finland Panzerfaust to fight the Russians, resettling of borders between Axis nations, millions of volunteers that fought vs. Communism, founding the nation of Croatia for Croatians while at the same time have a large number of Serbian volunteers, it all speaks against the calling down of the 3rd Reich as evil and presents a higher purpose than the trivial animosities, capitalist wars and cultural feuds that exist today. All of this, with the backdrop of world jewry declaring war on Germany in 1933 and we know they do not do anything in the best interests of anyone but themselves.