with Phelps was that once you put the nachos in the pool it tends to buzz kill the muchies.

True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise the other, loyalty.

is incorrect on the 40s at the combine. He moved before he started running which starts the time. His true 40 is 4.4 and plays much faster on the field than Hemingway. This also shows how unprepared Manningham really is for the combine which is part of the reason why he "fell" in the draft. It's work ethics and off-field concerns.

coaches/GM/scouts have their own time which would be the team's official time. The fact that Manningham has terrible work ethics and has big time off-field concerns is more than enough to drop him down in the draft board. Manningham didn't interview well which is another bad thing for him. It's not his 40 time that dropped him on the board. We know that he can run. Manningham has showed that he can consistently separate with ease which is a much better indicator than his 40 time.

You have to take into account that the center has much longer arms than Hemingway. The longer the arms, the harder to bench press. This is one reason Molk was able to bench so much, he doesn't have very long arms.

"I would do anything to lose weight, but I draw the line at eating healthy and exercising."

It's position dependent and an olineman would be better judged with the incline bench not the bench. An OLineman won't be deadlifting many people on the field but they would be incline pressing on the field.

Not a Hater, but you are gloating about Junior proving his 'HATERS' wrong at the combine...This didn't translate to the football field often, which is where he will truly be judged.I still don't believe he ran a 4.5...not the receiver I watched this year

I'd say both of you are wrong. The Combine is not that useful. Every year some guy raises his stock dramatically based on a good Combine performance, only to show the next season why he wasn't that highly regarded in the first place. Being able to run fast in a straight line while wearing shorts and a tank top does not tell you that much about a football player.

OTOH, Junior clearly showed that he has big-play receiving ability on the field. With a guy like Henne throwing to him he'd have been a 1,000-yard WR.

I did say that this speed didn't translate often to the football field. He seldom ran past guys on the field, relying on underthrown balls and his leaping ability (which is his strength along with very good hands) to get the big plays. All I was saying as you also said was that in essence, combine performances should not be relied on without on field success.

The combine is absolutely useful for exactly the above poster's point: determining how fast Junior can run a 40. And that's all it purports to do. The rest is armchair internet scouts layering their own meaning onto the results.

So when coldnjl says "i don't believe he ran a 4.5", well, that's an objectively wrong statement. When UMgradMSUdad says "this is a more accurate measurement of how fast he runs a 40 than your eyes", then that's definitely right.

your eyes can be a good barometer of how fast a player runs on the field rather than in shorts. How often do you see players running on the field with shorts? Zero.

Biggest problem than the 40 is the ability of WRs to separate from DBs. Even if you run 4.3 or 4.4, if you can't separate from DBs, your speed is not going to matter at all. Hemingway must show that he can separate from NFL DBs which will always going to be his biggest question mark.

(Steroids aside?!) would beg to differ. I know what you mean, the combine IS overrated, but it actually can help show that an under the radar player shouldn't be so and can raise his stock legitimately, via the combine.

That's really cool. Hemmingway looked like a man among boys on many of his catches this year. His only real knock for the pros was that a lot of people thought he wasn't very fast. With his size and strength, 4.5 is very impressive. Congrats to him for proving some of his naysayers wrong.

What if Denard was coached by the previous regime to "underthrow" balls to covered receivers and let the defenders overrun them? I have seen other coaches and their QB's do this from time to time over the years.

It's really a pretty clever thing to do, like football Aikido: turning the defender's momentum against him. I think a lot of those balls were thrown that way to take advantage of receiver's position relative to the cb or safety.

QBs to throw deep ball. Coaches rather have QB to overthrow and let the WRs run under the ball. If it's underthrown, it's more likely that DBs will make the play on the ball whether if it's CB turning his head around for a INT or PD or S coming over the top to make the play. It's more of Denard's fault for not throwing with enough distance. Fortunately, he is lucky that DBs didn't bother to turn their head around.

with any consistency. I'm torn about him and the underthrowing though. While I can see it making sense and possibly being part of the strategy with Hemingway, he also did that with our shorter receivers like Gallon. So I wonder if it's strategy, timidness, a combination of both or something else I'm missing.

Either way, Hemingway needs to show that he has some speed and 4.5 is good. He has to be able to show that he can do more than outjumping crappy ND or Big Ten DBs.

If Hemingway cannot get separation, then on an overthrow, he's not going to be the only guy who can catch the ball. The DB is going to have a chance regardless of whether it's over or underthrown. The advantage of the underthrow is simply that the pass is less likely to be incomplete. Someone will probably come down with it and you expect it to be Hemingway.

Now if you have a guy like Braylon or Manningham, who has the ability to get separation then yes, you definitely want to overthrow it.

regardless of WR's ability to separate, it's better to overthrow than to underthrow for the reasons that I stated from above. It's even more likely to get a incomplete or INT if you underthrow the ball rather than overthrow the ball.

You're wrong. If you have a guy you are throwing a jump ball to(not a back shoulder throw, that is completely different) you want to throw it in a spot so that he can use his advantages. For Hemingway, that was his large body, hands, and body control. If you overthrow it, you take 2 of those out of the equation. Besdies that, technically, if you "overthrow" the ball you have thrown it past him. 99% of the time, if you throw it beyond the receiever they won't catch it. What you are saying is a perfectly thrown ball is best, which, like, duh.

That stuff cracks me up. Yes, bench-pressing 225 pounds as many times as possible in a couple minutes, while you're flat on your back is clearly relevant to a sport in which he'll have to come up from a three-point stance and move a 290-pound DT once per play.

Thanks guys. Then he is definitely the #2 pick in the draft and the Browns will need to move up to get him. But knowing how fond we are of 5th and 6th round draft picks i fully expect us to trade our #4 pick in the draft for the #18 pick in the draft and two additional fourth rounders.

Talk about a perfect fit (Browns and RGII) that will never happen because he Cleveland braintrust is SO sure their 'system" is foolproof they don't need impact players.

The browns like the lions have always needed that franchise QB, I think RGIII looks like a great foundation to build upon. I've always had the browns as my AFC team, looking back what a terrible choice of teams I've rooted for: Detroit, and Cleveland.

“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”

40-yard dash times are great for measuring pure speed but coaches and GM's pay more attention to game tape. A lot of guys are speed demons during drills but don't play as fast in pads. This is probably the reason we are all somewhat surprised by Junior's time. I think he might be a really good pure runner but a touch slower in uniform.

I've long wondered just what value there is in the NFL combine truly is. I read of there being more downside risk than upside -- come in out of shape and slow and it costs, do well and it's expected. I read (such as your post, which I tend to agree with) that coaches and GMs put more stock in game film. Is there an example of someone who went higher in the draft based solely on NFL combine results? Sincere question ... because I myself honestly don't know.

Sadly, his NY Jets career didn't pan out. According to this ESPN article, he "will be remembered as one of the biggest draft busts in history."

Ouch.

OT Side Note -- I went to high school with the Texas Ranger's #1 pick in 1977 -- Dave Hibner. Complete bust, apparently. I was Googling around the other day and came across posters on some Ranger's board who still remember and cite Hibner as a wasted draft pick. That's gotta hurt ... can't imagine what it must be like living with that.

Tony Mandarich comes to mind. Some of you might be too young to remember him, but coming out of college (MSU) he was all the rage (turns out it was roid rage) due to a great extent to his eye popping numbers at the combine.He weighed over 300 pounds a ran a 4.65 40, had a 30" vertical, and benched 225 39 times (and in those days, 39 times was off the charts). He was taken 2nd overall in the 1989 draft ahead of players like Barry Sanders and Deion Sanders. I don't think he ever even cracked the starting lineup at GB.

The combine results are just another tool, and like any tool, they can be misused. Their value comes in that they provide a numerical way of comparing athletes and that they are objective (he ran a 4.5 40) rather than subjective (he looks kind of slow to me). But as others have pointed out, they don't exactly measure what goes on during play in a game, so they can never replace the subjective analysis of skilled observers of game tape. they can only augment those judgments and help verify or in some cases lead to re-evaluation of players' strengths and weaknesses.

Good for him. I desperately want to see him get drafted. He's definitely a project wherever he goes, but he can be a big, physical receiver, with some great hands no less, and a lot of teams would kill for that kind of guy.

He won't go before the sixth or seventh round if he does get drafted, but his stock is rising for sure.

Attention campers. Lunch is cancelled due to lack of hustle. Deal with it.

Good for him. I don't put much stock in the combine numbers because they are so artificial (guys run shirtless/muscle tees with track shoes on) or irrelevant (bench-pressing is fine and all, but usually breaking tight coverage has less to do with raw strength and more with quick hands and leg strength). Still, nice to see Hemingway put up some decent numbers. Hi vert was 35.5", which is good (but seems a little low to me).

Especially when the OP decides to neg every single thread posted. If he can't learn to spell the names of the players, maybe he shouldn't post about them, or at least Google their name so he looks like he knows what he's talking about.

We bring you to Michigan to take care of Michigan. Your job is to protect that block M.
-Carol Hutchins

They have similar measurables, but there is no injury history, route running, catching ability, playmaking ability or leadership attached to those numbers.

It's interesting to see how close they are, but let's leave it at that. Measurements and numbers.

Posey, IMO is the better WR. Hemingway has the better hands and jump ball skills.

I actually think they compliment each other quite well on the collegiate level. Put those two on the outside and give me a speed/change of direction demon in the slot with some good hands and that's a WR corps I wouldn't want to mess with.

In terms of playing style...Posey/Hemingway would be comparable to Manningham/Arrington IMO.

“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”

I was a bit short in that post. The point was that there is more to it than just combine numbers. On the other hand, if you have two players of similar size and physical ability then how much of this difference could be taught/coached?

showed the ability to consistently separate from DBs in which Hemingway lacked. In the NFL, you must be able to show the ability to separate from DBs or you won't last long in the NFL. That's the difference between the two.

I think you are seriously undervaluing Avant's hands. Dude has velcro. He was never a deep receiver, but he made some absolutely unreal catches on badly thrown balls while he was at Michigan. He's a very solid possession receiver.

As for Hemimgway's speed, I'm not sure that's it fair to say he looked slow while playing for us. Remember, he had a rather inaccurate QB throwing to him. Very rarely was there a situation where he could just take off and catch a ball in-stride that was delivered perfectly to him. A lot of his catches involved coming back for the ball or adjusting in some way, which doesn't really allow you to run full speed.

Look up "dropping passes" in the dictionary. Then scan down to the antonym - it'll read "Jason Avant."

Avant also had a better WR skill set than Hemingway. However, what Hemingway can do is box out ANYone and go get ANYthing. And he does that well. He's also a solid blocker.

IMO Hemingway will make a roster, he'll be somewhere between Avant and Marquise Walker in the eyes of scouts.

The thing I really like about Hemingway is his frame...I think he can play a little H-Back and you can split him out like a Dustin Keller to get him on a LB.

I don't know if he's an every down WR, but he's got a role...I'd certainly want him because I think he can play that role VERY well. Touchdowns and First Downs.

Career wise, I think he'll be like Adrian Arrington who is with the Saints and does see the field.

“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”

His times were better than Keshawn Martin in all of those too, except for the 60 in which they tied. That's surprising to me because I would think Martin should be quicker on the shorter stuff. Junior seems to have put in a lot of preparation, so hopefully it pays off for him.

My guess is that few NFL teams would ever pick Keshawn over Junior, whether Junior outperformed him at the combine or not. This is just icing on the cake. Junior has proven is he is a big play type of performer. He will make the most of his chance with any NFL team and we will see him playing plenty on Sundays.

People seem to dog Roundtree for the dropsies, but JR Hemingway is the most bizarre case of a guy who had that amazing jump ball ability, strong hands, big plays, etc, but his routine drops make no sense. He's always seemed like a 50/50 guy. Never know what you're going to get, so you might as well chuck it up and see what you come down with.

That said, someone will grab him in the NFL. I could see him making an impact, albeit not really in a #1 type of role.

As a receiver coach, I tell my guys if they get 2 hands on a ball, it has to be a catch. Sure, you'd love the timing to be right on the money, but you have to make plays when given the opportunity. Most of Junior's drops, that I've seen, are just mindboggling, especially when you see the great downfield, high-pointed catches he makes.

Maybe it's focus issues, maybe it's trying to make a play before securing the ball... whatever it is, that's not on the QB.

Wouldn't it be cool if they modified the combine to incorporate some of the measurements they do in the Sports Science show? They seem to be more indicative to how someone's skills will translate onto the field.

Great for Junior, you have to feel good for the guy especially after the speech he gave when he won the MVP for the Sugar Bowl. I think it's fitting that Jr wore the number of the first Michigan legend Desmond Howard. Junior may not have won a Heisman, but he did great things for the team. He deserves all the successes he will have in the NFL.

Hemingway is a big and explosive senior who has started regularly for three years, catching balls from Denard Robinson at Michigan. Hemingway is a big-framed guy who is an athlete and will do everything in his control to go up and make plays on the ball. He is thick and an effective run blocker; reliable in all facets of his game.

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS Hemingway is a talented receiver who might have been hindered throughout his career by not playing with a natural quarterback in Denard Robinson. Playing with him, Hemingway has developed a good field awareness and will be as ready as any rookie to make plays that happen during broken-down opportunities when the quarterback is scrambling. He knows how to exploit defenses and find open holes in the zone, which he did a lot at Michigan. He is reliable to catch the ball in a crowd and is also a threat deep. A very good athlete when the ball is in the air.

WEAKNESSES
Hemingway is a slow mover off the line and can get jammed up at times. He is a decent route runner but hasn't run many pro-style routes while working in Michigan's offense. He is not a very quick-twitched player and lacks speed variance and explosion in his routes.