Comments

The soup of comments here regarding this video; some loathsome, some insightful, some cruel, some clever, a few moronic, several compassionate, and one perfectly articulate and narcissistic- this one, mine. In short, a snapshot of 'gay guys'.

Posted by: scotsyank | Dec 12, 2012 6:31:47 PM

Scot'sYank - Exactly right - yes.

Posted by: Markt | Dec 12, 2012 7:17:44 PM

I've never been able to understand why gay men would think effeminate behavior is in any way attractive...sure, effeminate gay men can be funny in a court jester kind of way, but I'm talking strictly about sexual attraction. It feeds into the whole "if I wanted a woman, I'd get a real one." It's pretty basic. If you are attractive to men, then you want someone who exhibits male characteristics. Everyone says it, femmy, masculine, young, old...everybody. It's basic.

Posted by: Wow | Dec 12, 2012 7:41:41 PM

The men in this video fit to a bill the shallow social criticisms they have of other gay men. Sigh... If only mirrors could speak.

Posted by: anony6 | Dec 12, 2012 9:38:18 PM

I'm 46; been out since I was 19. This is EXACTLY what we all went through, just these kids have a public forum to express their doubts and disappointments. They're young. And when you're young, you think you've invented sexuality and creativity. They seem like smart boys. They'll get it. I do have to laugh a little though. A little advice: Remember those who came before you. We made the world you live in today, a world where it's free to OPENLY ask these questions.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different concepts. It's really not hard to understand. Physical sex=gender. If someone has a penis, their physical sex is male. Being fem doesn't make them female, it makes them a man with characteristics society has labeled feminine. So it should come as no surprise that some gay men find fem gay men very attractive..........they're men. And in my experience, fem gays tend to be overall better people than those that attack them. Actually, scratch that. They are definitely better people than those who attack them. And generally have to deal with lack of acceptance in BOTH the straight and non-straight world. It's not a coincidence most of the suicides we've seen, most of the hate crimes, have been against feminine gay men.

The guy Cole, who is mostly insufferable, made one very correct point, that also Nico made later in the video-----a LOT of non-heterosexual men feel this need to put down feminine gays, put down trans persons, and go out of their way to throw this hyper-masculine/macho, we need to act MANLY and like MEN and ONLY men card out there. It's another reason why many of the hate crimes we do see committed, are committed by repressed non-heterosexual men themselves. It's another reason why our community can be so fractured.

And it's so blatantly insecure and disgusting. It's men who like men attacking other men who like men, because they don't like being associated with the former group who like men, as they do. It's attacking your own people based on arbitrary societal notions. And so many gay men fall right into the trap. And come up with BS terms such as "straight acting" to run away from these notions that they believe because they're self-hating and homophobic.

I'm not too sexually attracted to feminine gay men, but let me tell you guys who hate them something-----without fem gays, you would NOT be in the position to denigrate them right now. Not at all. The acceptance we've gained in society is largely because of THEM.

Posted by: Francis | Dec 12, 2012 11:27:26 PM

Now, I am going to say something about SOME fem gays----they're fake. And I DO see the arguments made about why many, straight and gay, are annoyed by the very obnoxious fem gays. The screaming. The crying. The desperation for attention. The obsession with sex. The vapidness. And the problem there is that some fem gay men think being fem means/gives them a licence to act like an immature 13 year old girl, like it's adorable to be a caricature. And we all know what I'm talking about.

The problem is, that they act this way because of the stereotype that HOMOPHOBIC GAY MEN AND HOMOPHOBIC STRAIGHTS continue to perpetuate. That gay=acting like a 13 year old girl. Then reject gay culture and gay as an identity as a result. If you're young, and you're fem, and you see that being the adorable pocket gay will get you attention, you're going to take that route. If you're young, and you're coming into your sexuality, you don't really have much reference in terms of what it means to be gay and contact with other gays your age, and what you see as gay according to other gays is acting like an overly feminine caricature, you're going to go that route.

It's ridiculous and very dense of some masculine gays to ridicule fem gays, when first of all, most gay men have traits that society has deemed feminine, and most gay men give off gay vibes that are clear to anyone who has a decent gaydar. If I saw Rick in the street, I'm sure I'd know he was gay after 20 seconds.

And it's ridiculous and very dense of some masculine gays to ridicule fem gays when you go OUT OF YOUR WAY to disassociate with the gay community. Or make statements such as "I mostly like straight guys" "I'm straight acting" "I'm not in the scene, I'm attracted to men but I'm not gay". If you want a better representation of gay men, in mainstream society and for gay youth, then stand up and be counted. The way I see it, it's the fem gays who actually accept themselves as gay. The problem some of them have is what they think it means to be gay. And that being gay encompasses their entire identity.

But at least they accept themselves as gay. And embrace it. Where are the masculine gays attacking these fem gays doing? You're worried more about appearances than actually standing up for your own community and embracing your homosexuality. And that's what's really pathetic.

Posted by: Francis | Dec 13, 2012 12:01:30 AM

Lastly, do you know how insane some of you sound? Like, you, RICK. Do you realize you're not healthy? It's honestly so disgusting to see others victimizing individuals that they've helped create, and victimizing individuals that, at the end of the day, are one of us. I mean, there is no such thing as straight-acting. I know so many straight men who have MANY feminine traits. I know fem straight men. We all do. So that's the entirely ridiculous part. You cannot act a sexual orientation that you're not. Being straight does not=masculine.

And the sad thing is, in my circle of straight friends I've never had any of them care whether or not they appeared feminine or masculine. Yes, there are many extremely insecure, misogynistic straight boys. But so many who are just cool with who they are, secure, and cool with who others are. They don't act in any way and they don't put a label on their actions.

It's so sad to watch. The community I love sometimes feel so broken but that's what homophobia does. Honestly, Kiwi, this is why I love you, because you are one of the few people who seem to actually see this stupidity unfolding and have the strength to call it for what it is.

Sorry for the long posts, but this is bulls**t and we need to start dealing with our damage as acceptance continues to increase socially and we gain legal rights. Now that things are starting to get better in the outside world, we need to start healing our own world.

Posted by: Francis | Dec 13, 2012 12:11:59 AM

YUPP, you are clearly an idiot. NYC is and has always been what it is because of its immigrants. I'm curious what you do to add to the cultural relevance of the city. Most of the "famous" New Yorkers came from elsewhere originally.

Posted by: chris | Dec 13, 2012 12:33:04 AM

Cultural relevance? In the past only, Chris. (Capote and Warhol and Cole Porter and.....yes, I could go on and on). Newcomer gays to NYC now have nothing to add except to pretend they are somehow cooler than the people in the state they left behind. No talent, not even any original thinking. But what makes you think I'm talking about "cultural relevance"? I'm talking about very simple things, like working for the ASPCA when NYC gay-newcomers are animal abusers. I'm talking about helping the homeless when NYC gay-newcomers try to cause harm to them (as long as they aren't caught). And on and on...

Posted by: Yupp | Dec 13, 2012 1:26:04 AM

the b.s. claim that "NYC only hires effeminate men to work in gay establishments" is a load of hooey.

now, if your "friend(s)" didnt' get hired at a bar and want to pretend that it's because "they're too masculine" that's a lovely (albeit useless) like you can tell yourself. the truth? i dunno. maybe they're ugly and boring.

but, Yupp, your comments are utter nonsense.

btw, effeminacy-haters, would you describe the guys in this video as being particularly "masculine"? if so, based on what criteria?

And that's OKAY to be fixated on those issues in particular, I guess, but....in the U.S. and NYC those issues are so much more complicated and shades-of-gray than you in your coddled life could ever realize.

Posted by: Yupp | Dec 13, 2012 2:39:02 AM

And I love how the Kiwi thinks his (faraway) opinions and "conclusions" about NYC hold any merit when he won't even state what religion (if any) he was raised in, nor what ethnicity he is.

Posted by: Yupp | Dec 13, 2012 2:44:59 AM

i was raised in the united church of canada. and if you want to see my ethnicity, you can click on my name and see my blog.

i'm scots, btw. caucasian.

but i love how you move goalposts. proves me, and everyone else, right.

lived in NYC for nearly 5 years. still spend a lot of time there each year. yay, work visas.

i get it, though. anonymous trolls need to try to convince others of the lies they tell themselves to make it through each day.

And Kiwi, you're as much in the online closet as anyone. No one is "real" on the internet. Anyone can make a fake character, a fake blog, fake computer-graphics and everything else. The ONLY thing that counts online is ones' stated opinion which others will agree with or disagree with according to their own experiences (or just because of what they PREFER to believe).

Posted by: Yupp | Dec 13, 2012 3:05:55 AM

Yupp, all you've done in your about 4 months as a regular here is attack posters. That's pretty much what you do. So I find it very inappropriate for you to go in on Kiwi, call him fake, call him out of touch, say his opinions aren't representative of what's currently occurring in the States because he lives in Canada. What have you presented that disproves anything Kiwi has to say wrong? Where are the solutions you are proposing for these issues in/for the gay community?

Posted by: Francis | Dec 13, 2012 3:19:06 AM

Francis : What are you talking about ? I compliment people. I DO attack more, yes, because I see more horrible posters out there/here. But....what are you saying the kiwi is proposing as a solution? And a solution that I'm rejecting? Maybe I don't propose any solution, because I don't act like I'm a great sage who knows every solution (I've already said there's nothing wrong with being effeminate, if that's who you genuinely are. And that everyone should just respect everyone no matter how he acts).

Posted by: Yupp | Dec 13, 2012 3:25:25 AM

And, Francis, I know how complicated NYC is, with it's varied competing ethnicities and religions, and, yes, the hostility between natives and newcomers, and how that all plays into the gay-versus-straight and feminine-versus-masculine topics. Those from easy upper-middle-class all-white places like Vermont and most Canadian cities don't understand these things.

Posted by: Yupp | Dec 13, 2012 3:29:21 AM

Selections from "How To Be Gay" by David Halperin:

"Ever since the 1970s... gay men have been drawing self-serving generational comparisons between well-adjusted gay people in their teens and twenties, who have no need of gay culture, and all those older queens who are fanatically attached to it"

"Young queers fit easily into youth culture, we are told; they don't like being labeled, they don't feel the need for a separate, distinct social world, and they don't identify with gay culture. And a good thing, too, I might add, because the social costs of insisting on your differences from normal people are exorbitant when you have no choice but to integrate yourself into heterosexual society--because substantive gay alternatives to the straight world no longer exist, now that the urban infrastructures of gay life have been largely dismantled.... What, after all, does such a denial indicate, if not that straight society is actually a good deal less accommodating of queer kids, especially queer kids who want to proclaim their difference from straight kids, than we are sometimes led to believe?"

"Corresponding to the perennial disavowal of the importance of gay identity is the constant denial, especially on the part of gay men, of the importance of gay sex... Gay kids these days don't feel a political urge to manifest their sexuality. They feel comfortable in their sexuality. They find themselves more or less accepted everywhere they go. So why do they keep killing themselves when they get outed?"