On January 24th the little-known group Sri Ram Sena (The army of Lord Ram) attacked a number of women who were drinking alcohol in a bar in Mangalore:

“The BBC’s Sanjoy Majumder in Delhi says the attack – which was filmed and then broadcast on national television – has shocked many Indians. Television pictures showed the men chasing and beating up the panicking women – some wearing skirts. Some of the women, who tripped and fell, were kicked by the men.”

Now the group, based in Karnataka, is promising to ‘protest’ against couples celebrating Valentine’s Day in public. Given their previous ‘protest’, one can only assume that violence will ensue.

The attacks have been widely condemned in the media, while an obscenity case against a married couple for alleged kissing in public was thrown out by the judge, who thought it ridiculous. However, anti-female attitudes still run deep, with far too many still willing to resort to violence to repress women’s freedom of choice.

Update: Sri Ram Sena have a low public profile and so it is difficult to get an accurate picture of them. All we really have is a blog by their international president, which hasn’t been updated since November 16th. On it there are strong endorsements for the BJP, especially Narenda Modi (unsurprisingly). The blog aims for a sanitised message at times, but on other occasions demonstrates a Hindu fundamentalist streak (with ramblings about Christian covert missionaries and media outlets not controlled by Hindus). Much of the blog is focused on Jammu and Kashmir, as the president used to be in charge of the Sri Ram Sena party there. And he doesn’t like gays.

58 Comments below |

[...] supporters fight back Feb 12th, 2009 by Pickled Politics. In the aftermath of the Mangalore attacks, and the campaign to send pink underwear to Sri Ram Sena, the group Save the Earth Foundation has [...]

If this wasn’t such a serious matter, it would actually be amusing that the so-called “Sri Ram Sena” appear to be blissfully unaware of the contradictions between their attacks on women’s freedom & rights, and what their god would presumably have actually thought about the matter, at least if the Ramayan is anything to go by (regardless of whether you view it as a mythological or a semi-historical text).

It’s like a bunch of illiterate peasants somewhere in medieval Europe or colonial America armed with pitchforks deciding to attack prostitutes and lepers while claiming to act in the name of Jesus Christ, whilst ignoring Biblical accounts of Christ’s own apparent attitude towards members of those groups and indeed regarding the use of violence. Hell, it’s like the KKK using burning crosses and claiming to be “good Christian folk” despite being diametrically opposite to the teachings (and the religious figure) that they claim to follow.

This is just a bunch of people “making it up as they go along” and using religious terminology as a veneer to attempt to justify their own neuroses and self-serving, power-driven agendas. Bunch of backward idiots.

Mr. Yedurppa should first realize that it is not the pub culture that gave rise to Manglore incident. It is the assured protection to the perpetrators of the act from seat of power occupied by political out fit of the saffron brigade that encouraged the mischief makers. The whole incident takes one back to The Hitlers rise in Germany and subsequent horror that took place. Also the statements of the leader of the so called Ram sene and the chief minister draws similarities with what happened in Afghanistan and now in Pakistan under influence of the Talibans.People have to decide what they want talibanisation or peace and freedom.

what their god would presumably have actually thought about the matter, at least if the Ramayan is anything to go b

Actually Jai, Ram didn’t quite set the gold standard on gender equality. Though he wouldnt approve of molesting women etc, there is a tint of misogyny in his conduct during the later part of Ramayan esp, the banishment of Sita part.

At any rate if this is the “Ram rajya” that RSS old farts like to talk about then count me out!

Yes you’re right Vikrant, I do know about all that. I was referring to the idea of harassing women, or men and women freely socialising, or romantic things like Valentines Day, or indeed the consumption of alcohol.

These fools have a really weird idea of Hinduism, for a group who have named themselves after one of the religion’s primary deities. You’ve got to laugh at a “fundamentalist” organisation who become hysterical about things which aren’t actually against the “fundamentals” of their religion in the first place.

It would be like some allegedly Muslim fundamentalist group going around calling themselves “Lashkar-e-Allah” and beating ordinary Muslims up for doing things like eating halal meat or performing namaaz towards Mecca etc.

This lot remind me of the BJP Youth getting all annoyed because they couldn’t stop masturbating over Mallika Sherawat. I bet if they were getting laid, they probably wouldn’t be out beating up women!

I really like that their crusading masculinity is established in beating up women. Vah, vah. Well done, you’re REAL men, evidently!

Oh my God, they’re even lower a form of life than I suspected! Their chief said of Valentine’s Day:

‘Let them celebrate it in the church — not outside in society. They can do this in their church or in their homes.’

Yeah… because it’s a Christian festival, not a secular money-making event! Jeez.

‘… the government seems in no mood to ban the Sena and only has generalisations about providing security.

“The Chief Minister has already said that those talking law into their hands will not be allowed. He will take action. They will sit and talk with higher police officials,” said Shobha Karandlaje, Minister for Rural Development.

Sri Rama Sene seems to have taken the outcry against their attack on women in Mangalore as encouragement.’

India remains a largely conservative country where public celebration of relationships and drinking is still frowned upon. It’s a boundary issue where public and private are more clearly defined than in the West. Most Indian people respect their cultural and religious values and there isn’t anything wrong with that, as long as there is no resort to violence.

I suspect conservative notions of public propriety rule the day in India and long may it continue. After all, we can see the negative consequences of the laissez-faire attitude to social norms readily enough in the UK eg. women out on Friday night piss-drunk lying semi-naked in the gutter. They then complain when men take advantage. Besides, Valentines Day is a Westernised commercial celebration with no organic roots in Indian society.

‘After all, we can see the negative consequences of the laissez-faire attitude to social norms readily enough in the UK eg. women out on Friday night piss-drunk lying semi-naked in the gutter. They then complain when men take advantage.’

‘Fraid I don’t know where you’re living Ashik, because I never see anything of the sort.

Say, you don’t happen to notice when men are lying there with their T-shirts all ridden up or their shirts flapping loose in the wind, do you? Thought not.

If ever you’re in any sort of weakened state, be it through inebriation, an eye operation or anything like that and somebody sets about you, do be sure to thank them for it, won’t you? Because evidently, you were ‘asking for it’ just as you imply women are by *gasp* exerting their freedoms. By the same token, I suppose youths murdered by gangs of young men are also guilty of their own deaths, by not travelling in a pack at all times?

From the reports, these were couples having a drink at a hotel. They were assaulted.

They then complain when men take advantage.

I confess to having been drunk in my life. I may even have slumped semi-concious in a public place in my younger days. Not my finest hour, but I still don’t see that as giving anyone the right to molest my inebriated ass.

They then complain when men take advantage.

Damn right they do.

Besides, Valentines Day is a Westernised commercial celebration with no organic roots in Indian society.

Right, so any celebration that does not have ‘organic roots’ in British society is to be denigrated, opposed and met with mobs invading hotel bars?

Nobody is forcing you to celebrate it. But nor should you try and stop others celebrating it. There are plenty of celebrations in this country, both home-grown and foreign, that I do not join in with, but I would never try to stop them as it is none of my business.

These losers. It’s much easier to attack women and people celebrating Valentines day–no matter how frivolous and commercialized the day may be– when you are a simplistic person with only two brain cells, rather than come up with solutions for REAL problems, keeping their sacred river Ganga nadi clean and free of toxic pollutants. Or, doing something about poverty.

“If this wasnâ€™t such a serious matter, it would actually be amusing that the so-called â€œSri Ram Senaâ€ appear to be blissfully unaware of the contradictions between their attacks on womenâ€™s freedom & rights, and what their god would presumably have actually thought about the matter, at least if the Ramayan is anything to go by (regardless of whether you view it as a mythological or a semi-historical text).”

Like other religious texts the Ramayan can be used to support misoygny. Ram abandonding his pregant wife Sita in a forest because she had been accused of infidelity is hardly cutting edge feminism. The women in Ramayana like Sita are presented as docile and weak.

“Itâ€™s like a bunch of illiterate peasants somewhere in medieval Europe or colonial America armed with pitchforks deciding to attack prostitutes and lepers while claiming to act in the name of Jesus Christ, whilst ignoring Biblical accounts of Christâ€™s own apparent attitude towards members of those groups and indeed regarding the use of violence. Hell, itâ€™s like the KKK using burning crosses and claiming to be â€œgood Christian folkâ€ despite being diametrically opposite to the teachings (and the religious figure) that they claim to follow.”

Both the KKK and illitete peasants found in the Bible proofs for what they were doing. In any case they both like the Sri Sena had literate people behind them supporting their action based on religious texts

However, anti-female attitudes still run deep, with far too many still willing to resort to violence to repress womenâ€™s freedom of choice.

That is a sweeping statement. Few goons in some South Indian sleepsville dont count for much.

These fools have a really weird idea of Hinduism, for a group who have named themselves after one of the religionâ€™s primary deities. Youâ€™ve got to laugh at a â€œfundamentalistâ€ organisation who become hysterical about things which arenâ€™t actually against the â€œfundamentalsâ€ of their religion in the first place.

Exactly! Hinduism doesnt even have bleeding fundamentals. Its like an open source software. With each follower/sect modifying it according to their needs. Hinduism my Rajasthani side of family is completely different from the one my Marathi side practices! Actually to be honest the middle class notions of “Indian cultural values” are basically influenced by Victorian England. Lord MacCauly would be proud!

Also vis-a-vis obscenity case… Having lived in Bombay not so long ago and snogged quite a few local lasses by the Chowpatty, i can say that dating in India especially a very public place like a beach front is a in interesting game of cat and mouse with the cops. But since there are soo many couples around, you have to be exteremely unlucky to get caught under the British Raj era obscenity act!

Do these fools understand where the Kama sutra comes from or do they think thats also a western import forced onto India by the Brits?

I wonder if they’ve ever visited those heritage sites and mandirs with those dodgy murals of half naked women performing all sorts of acts? Perhaps these couples that were assaulted weren’t lewd enough to compare to their fundamentalist beliefs? lol

The fundamentalist BJP are in power in Karnataka, so that basically means a green light for radical Hindu outfits. The first south Indian state to elect a BJP government â€“ Karnataka â€“ is rapidly becoming another Hindutva laboratory like Gujarat and Orissa.

All the people involved in the pub attack, which was captured on video, were given bail. As long as the BJP are in power you expect this kind of double standards vis-a-vis the attackers and victims. BJP and RSS spokesmen criticized the action of the hooligans taking the law into their hands, but at the same time upheld the ’cause’ of protection of Indian culture. Women should not go to the pub, they must ‘behave’.

With Valentine’s Day coming up you can expect similar kinds of moral policing, and they don’t just happen in ‘sleepsvilles’; they happen in big towns and cities like Mumbai. It is quite common for members of Shiv Sena to harass and intimidate amorous couples, attack stalls selling Valentine’s Day cards, etc.

Exactly! Hinduism doesnt even have bleeding fundamentals. Its like an open source software.

What planet are living on! There are literally millions of Hindu fundamentalists in India. India is after all a billion plus people and Hindus are an overwhelming majority. The combined membership of the RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena and other extremist Hindu groups are well into the tens of millions, and growing!

The BJP always get into power on the plank of â€˜developmentâ€™, but itâ€™s interesting to see their â€˜developmentâ€™ strategies after they get in.

The people of Karnataka voted the BJP in and I donâ€™t things will ever be the same again. Once you start the process of communalising and polarizing communities it is very difficult to reverse the trend unless, of course, there is a concerted effort to do so, which there isnâ€™t here.

India remains a largely conservative country where public celebration of relationships and drinking is still frowned upon.

I am not sure about the drinking part. There is a certainly a considerable market for beer and wine in India.

After all, we can see the negative consequences of the laissez-faire attitude to social norms readily enough in the UK eg. women out on Friday night piss-drunk lying semi-naked in the gutter. They then complain when men take advantage.

There is a certainly a considerable market for beer and wine in India.

Exactly. Alcohol consumption amongst the ‘average Indian’ is pretty common and not necessarily a big no-no, especially in the major cities (despite what some of the more regressive Saas-Bahu serials would have people believe).

India remains a largely conservative country where public celebration of relationships and drinking is still frowned upon…..I suspect conservative notions of public propriety rule the day in India and long may it continue.

Ashik, that’s a pretty huge generalisation and quite inaccurate, especially in relation to some segments of the urban population.

If you get satellite channels at home, I suggest you watch a show called “Night Out” on NDTV (it’s usually on every day during the evenings); you may find it quite an eye-opener with regards to modern urban Indian life in the really big cities.

After all, we can see the negative consequences of the laissez-faire attitude to social norms readily enough in the UK eg. women out on Friday night piss-drunk lying semi-naked in the gutter.

That’s quite an extreme extrapolation; it’s like saying that women shouldn’t appear in public without burkhas otherwise they’ll end up walking around in their underwear or even completely naked.

The example you’ve given is more to do with relatively recent developments in British culture involving binge-drinking, rather than “the freedom to drink” per se; alcohol consumption is pretty common amongst women in mainland Europe too, it’s just that in public they don’t necessarily drink to excess there (especially in some of the Mediterranean countries, I believe).

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The actions of the Sri Ram Sena and other extremist groups, in relation to all of the areas mentioned in Rumbold’s main article, are a reaction to changing social mores in India, especially in the really big urban centres. Unfortunately you’re always going to get resistance to progress and modernisation in some quarters when people’s notions of the status quo are threatened (in any part of the world), but times are changing in India and they will continue to change as long as nobody capitulates to the efforts of these neanderthals.

The people of Karnataka voted the BJP in and I donâ€™t things will ever be the same again.

I can see that causing quite a major “culture clash” in places like Bangalore; the lifestyle and attitudes of many of the city’s inhabitants can be as liberal as their counterparts in Mumbai etc (increasingly so, in fact).

I wonder if theyâ€™ve ever visited those heritage sites and mandirs with those dodgy murals of half naked women performing all sorts of acts?

Exactly. I think it’s frequently one of those things that many conservative Indians are embarassed to address and prefer not to talk about, especially because it contradicts many of their preconceptions and probably raises some very awkward questions about their own attitudes to sexual matters and interpretations of Hinduism.

Getting laid with someone they really fancy, more accurately. I bet a lot of this really is driven by jealousy and sexual frustration to a great extent; there’s probably some weird psychological stuff involved too, if they believe women should only behave in certain restricted hyperconservative ways but they can’t understand why they don’t really fancy such women (and find themselves fancying women who behave in “forbidden” ways more).

Not that thay’d necessarily admit any of this, of course. It would be too much of a blow to their own pride, ego and notions of their own masculinity.

There is a certainly a considerable market for beer and wine in India.

I don’t know whether there is a direct statistical correlation between the amount of alcohol drunk in a country and how liberal it is, especially if the population of that country is huge and it is situated in the warmer climes, but what these nutters specifically object to is women drinking alcohol. Itâ€™s a rather hypocritical attitude because they are probably some of the biggest consumers of alcohol. Alcohol, money and food are often offered by extremist Hindu groups as incentives:

Some of these idiots are drunk when they go on their storm trooper rampages, so it makes a mockery of their religious vocation. Like fundamentalists the world over, they know little about their own religion but a lot about hating the ‘other’ or imposing their misogynistic values on society.

I would say India is still a very conservative country. Yes, there is a liberalisation of lifestyle in the urban areas but that does not necessarily mean people’s social views are getting a lot more liberal. Visit some of the online Indian forums and you will see some of the most virulently bigoted views, expressed largely by people living in the urban centres. The urban population are the biggest supporters of the BJP.

Its rather easy and naive to trivialise these events especially when you are not affected, but to simply dismiss them as a reaction to more social liberalisation is naive. If the rule of law doesn’t apply to people who carry out such acts, they will only get more emboldened.

I wonder what ways they are for the ‘non-toxification’ social value to be raised without going ape. Forget about their method for a moment, but targetting women in particular is really bogus and unchivalrous.

Its hard to go about social de-alcoholisation in a non-spasticated way, and western liberal logic doesnt particularly give a stuff. ‘Liberal Eastern’ (lax abdicator) types have given up on it, which leaves the issue open to exploitation by unsavouries.

Enjoining good and forbiding wrong is a prominent ethic in the east. And as you know social practice is a negotiation. Its not the ‘boldness’ that should be upsetting, that people should dare to range themselves against regressive matters, but the ethics/manners by which they go about expressing their teachings.

I should dare to range themselves against regressive matters, but targetting, that people should be upsetting women in particular is really bogus and unchivalrous. Its not the ethic in the ethic in the east.

And as you know social de-alcoholisation in a non-spasticated way, and western liberal Easternâ€™ (lax abdicator) types have given up on it, which they are for the â€˜boldnessâ€™ that people should dare to range themselves against regressive matters, but targetting women in particular is really bogus and unchivalrous. Its not the â€˜non-toxificationâ€™ social de-alcoholisation by unsavouries.

Enjoining good and forbiding wrong is a negotiation. Its not the â€˜boldnessâ€™ that people should dare to range themselves against regressive matters, but targetting women in particularly give a stuff. â€˜Liberal Easternâ€™ (lax abdicator) types have given up on it, which they are for the â€˜boldnessâ€™ that people should.

Youâ€™re right about Bombay and Calcutta. Bombay has long been held by Shiv Sena, a party more extreme than BJP, who renamed the city to Mumbai. Calcutta has long been a bastion of the Left. But Delhi was ruled by BJP for quite a long time.

Where do the BJPâ€™s main support base (upper caste Hindus) live? Donâ€™t tell me the rural areas.

This is politics, attach yourself to a cause that you feel will resonate however insane it may be and propel yourself to the good life of wanton thievery, obscene corruption, 50 car convoys, hundreds of personal guards and lifetime VIP treatment. You see this increasingly for instance the violence against ‘outsiders’ in Mumbai by idiots like Raj Thakeray. What do individuals like this who live the good life with no known source of income buying property worth millions of dollars have to say on anything yet the charade goes on.

You will be surprised how much support these acts of medieval barbarism can generate, moral posturing and empty lectures on culture and spirituality is India’s favourite pastime and you would have to be intoxicated with self importance, an outrageous hypocrite or possess an extraordinary ability to be impervious to reality of modern day India to fall for any of this carp

These incidents happen frequently, cops harassing lovers, societies barring single women and men for ‘lifestyle’ reasons, and assorted busy bodies seeking a platform to ‘flaunt’ their credentials under the guise of morality. In India its all show and no go and it only blind misplaced failure inducing ‘pride’ that prevents some from owning up to this.

Unlike folks everywhere else unburdened by the self inflicted exception of some dubious ‘extra morality’, this neurotic xenophobia unsurprisingly manifests itself in the sort of mass hypocrisy that sees laughable pretensions about alcohol on one hand and the fabulous business and wealth of Vijay Mallya on the other not unlike the type of morality these thugs are trying to uphold.

The problem with self appointed guardians is the ‘self appointed’ part of it. Modern governance systems with democracy, rule of law and court exist in any civilised country for a reason, to prevent any self appointed nutcase’s despotism.

â€œBesides, Valentines Day is a Westernised commercial celebration with no organic roots in Indian society.â€

Desi Italiana
“The English language did not have â€œorganic rootsâ€ in Indian society.Cricket did not have organic roots in Indian society.

Indians must immediately desist from playing and enjoying cricket and speaking, reading, and writing in the English language.”

The argument against this would probably be that cricket and the English language (and the latter isnt that widespread amongst everyday Indians) dont fundamentally challenge conservative Indian religious values.

The argument against this would probably be that cricket and the English language (and the latter isnt that widespread amongst everyday Indians) dont fundamentally challenge conservative Indian religious values.

Women drinking does

No it doesn’t. And it depends on which “Indian religion” one is referring to.

For example, there are no religious prohibitions on alcohol consumption (either in relation to men or women) in Hinduism or Sikhism, unless one is (for example) a devout member of the Swaminarayan sect in the former or a baptised/Amritdhari member of the latter.

If the British hadn’t gifted their language, cricket, hockey etc, what games and pastimes would Indians indulge in – kabaddi, tossing coloured powder at Holi, taking holy dips in assorted rivers?
Are these customs particularly inspiring or empowering? Thank God for the British, I say.

Amrit (#40): my point is that the Hindus over the centuries have never devised any games or group activities that have attracted other nationalities or cultures. Their sports potential is near zero, except in cricket (a foreign game). And generally
Indians are no innovators – they tend to be laidback and religion-bound while the Japanese or Koreans invent something significant almost every two weeks.
So what is this ingredient in the Hindu pysche that holds them back? I do admit they are wizards in business plans and balance sheets but I am talking of intellectual prowess here.
The Muslims excel here – they have always been culturally rich (think of the Moghuls) and we have intellectuals like Ziauddin Sardar, Tariq Ramadan, Rasheed Araen, Salman Rushdie. True there are great Hindu novelists but they write on food, family and Bollywood. There is little intellectual content.
Or look at Slumdog Millionaire – it needed a foreigner to transcend the Bolly silly escapism and reveal the true Indian social condition.

It’s a good thing there aren’t any Indian doctors around, then; who knows how many people those pagan fools would kill. And Indians in the UK do consistently perform far worse in academic studies compared to white Brits and Muslims, as everyone knows.

Thank God we unenlightened heathens have members of the Master Race like you to show us the error of our ways.

Do you have any more pearls of wisdom ? Barbarians like us always appreciate your civilising efforts to lift us from the cultural gutter of humanity.

“A single shelf of an Islamic or European library is worth the whole of Indian literature”, and all that.

A Sikh gentleman founded a company in Punjab and it worked with the Clinton Foundation and is extensively responsible for saving many lives in Africa. The company called Ranbaxy.

A Hindu nobel laureate economist is accepted as the primary voice for reason and for providing guiding thoughts in international development and expanding on the concept of freedom which we in the West have adopted as one of the main planks of our evolving left politics.

If innovation was not the reason, then Tata would not be owning Jaguars or running if not the largest, one of the largest ICT services companies in the World.

If innovation was not the reason, then Walt Disney would not have outsourced about 40% of its actual creative development

NAd thats just less than .01% –

Well and considering the site you are on — you of course cannot build youur own platform — so why dont you fuck off to your cave that you crawled out of

“Thank God we unenlightened heathens have members of the Master Race like you to show us the error of our ways.”

You call them Brahmans dont you ?.
Hitler after all nicked most of his ideas from Hinduism: Swastika Aryan race etc

â€œA single shelf of an Islamic or European library is worth the whole of Indian literatureâ€, and all that.

The original quote never mentioned Islamic and indeed would have been referring to many texts from Islamic India. You seem in classic Hinduvata style to believe that something Islamic is alien to India.

“Delusional racist idiot.”

Since when are Hindus a race?
The poster your attacking almost certainly shares the same race as you.

George
“If the British hadnâ€™t gifted their language, cricket, hockey etc, what games and pastimes would Indians indulge in – kabaddi, tossing coloured powder at Holi, taking holy dips in assorted rivers?”

You forgot to mention the glories Hindu tradition of Sati though to be fair the Mughals and eveil Aurangzeb did try and stamp it out.
How long before the BJP resurrect it as a sock in the eye to the “Islamic invaders”

me @ 46 — you really want to go down this path — the chance of you winning any argument on what George said would come very near zero. And I would love to argue with you — it would be so tempting to wipe the floor with your flawed logic. And beware of taking on Jai — he’s got more than his fair share of grey matters for a British Indian Boy..

Hinduism is not even a religion by the way — at least it was not envisioned to be one. But you enlightened ones already know that don’t you.

Although you’ve forgotten I’m not a Hindu, so your references to Brahmins and Hindutva are wasted on me. But I’m sure George appreciates your little intervention on his behalf.

Nice try, though, Keep ‘em coming.

And oh, by the way, you might want to do a little research on where the millennia-old term “Aryan” comes from. Ask your Iranian friends. Unless you think the name of their country after the Shah was deposed is just a coincidence.

Wait till you read that Al Jazeera thread, Shamit. Deserves to be framed on PP’s walls for the sheer entertainment value of the level of supremacist and indignant hypocritical nonsense that can ensue when our wannabe overlords find their buttons being pushed.

As for #46, I’m finding it hilarious to be lectured on my adaptation of Macaulay’s infamous racist outburst (the original version obviously derided both Arab and Indian literature). I guess an appreciation for satire is also lacking in some of our “betters”.

Their sports potential is near zero, except in cricket (a foreign game). And generally
Indians are no innovators – they tend to be laidback and religion-bound while the Japanese or Koreans invent something significant almost every two weeks.

I really do not want to sound like a goodness gracious me sketch, but here is something few people know, because it was publish recently: one of the inventors of the radio, usually attributed to Marconi, was in fact Jagadish Chandra Bose. In this case, Bose had the opportunity to capitalise his discovery, but he did not want fame or money – and History passed by him.

*salutes the good work of fellow heathens and heathen defenders on this thread*

However, it does say a great deal that the likes of George and ‘me’ feel the need to crawl onto threads on what is evidently an ethnic-minority supporting blog and spray their crap all over it.

(Like dogs trying to mark their territory, dontcha think? )

The life of a troll must be enriching indeed. Still, I think it’s time that George headed back to his amateur ethnography literature section in the nineteenth century (seriously, who is your model? James Stuart and/or Henry Rider Haggard?) and ‘me’, stop trying to create fights where there are none. Jai and Shamit have pwned you comprehensively, and I see no need to add insult to injury.