I'm a 4.5C. If I pop a ball up in a 4.5 match, I'm pretty sure someone is going to put it away against me (and vice versa).

I actually think that is the difference between 4.0-4.5. Short balls to a 4.5 are going to be played more accurately and aggressively than at 4.0. Depth with spin is very important.

Saying that when you pop a ball up you expect that someone is going to put it away is a VERY long way from saying that you haven't ever played with a 4.5 player who struggled putting balls away. You know your teammates abilities- you seriously don't know any players who struggle at the net at 4.5?

I never played high school sports. I messed around with tennis but never took it seriously. I decided to randomly play a non-USTA league in 2010 and later joined USTA.

It's easy to say that someone will fail at 4.5 since most people will. I am very well aware that blowing through 3.0 and 3.5 will be much easier than getting though 4.0 and moving on to 4.5. What's your point? In my "tennis plan" I gave myself 3 years to move up from 3.0 to 4.0 and 5 years to move up from 4.0 to 4.5.

"Wasted your 10 mins of your life" lol.

You say that and you call me a "kid". lol. What is this? Halo? or Call of Duty?

And ive worked very hard to get this good in this amount of time. If you think im going to "play up" just to get "fluke wins" so I can be a 4.5 "C" you're an idiot. I didnt work his hard to (basically) self-rate up just to say im a 4.5. If I hit my goal ill hit 4.5 by the time im 35 which gives me 5 solid years to grind out 4.0 the right way. If I was all about "rating flexing" I could have just self-rated 4.0 from the start.[/QUOTE]

I actually didn't say you played hs sports, but that you were a hs athlete. I'm assuming you weren't picked last in gym class.

I didn't say you'd fail at 4.5. That is where I think you'll get to (Cindy thought 4.0 was your ceiling). You'll struggle at 4.5, but you'll get there. Like I said, it's an experience thing. By the time you log your 20+ years on the court, your body will be on the down side physically.

I've probably wasted far more than 10 mins of my life. On top of watching the videos, I'm sitting here analyzing you on my lunch break.

And yea, you're a kid to me. Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I am nearly old enough to be your father so I put you in the kid category. We refer to all the recent college grads as kids.

I understand that you don't want to play up as a way to accomplish a long term goal. I didn't want to either when I was a solid 4.0. But I got baited into it by a friend that was short on players for a 4.5 team. Then, I got a couple wins and received the bump. Dreaded it at the time, but I've been competitive enough.

In a nutshell, I'm being complimentary of you. I think that you probably should have self rated at 3.5 originally. 3.0 is just below you physically.

Probably the only non compliment I have is your serve. It might touch 100 on a hot day, but it ain't got 120 within sight. No way, no how. Your natural arm swing just doesn't get that much racket head speed. 120 is a really, really big ball that I don't know if I've faced in 20+ years. Only time I've seen it live is at UF men's matches and during tour events.

I'm not saying this to insult you. I think your serve is very good for how much experience you have, the age at which you started playing, and your level.

But, sorry, you don't have the technique it takes to generate that kind of pace. Maybe you will develop that technique, but it's not there yet. I say that based on the videos you posted. Your service motion is still not smooth and developed enough. Your knee bend and shoulder rotation are mistimed.

Saying that when you pop a ball up you expect that someone is going to put it away is a VERY long way from saying that you haven't ever played with a 4.5 player who struggled putting balls away. You know your teammates abilities- you seriously don't know any players who struggle at the net at 4.5?

What other balls get put away? Even the Bryan's don't put away balls that are rocketed into their body. It can take them 4 or 5 volleys to get the sitter they are waiting for.

Sure, there are 4.5's that aren't good net players (me). But, the balls that should get put away get put away. If they don't, the match would be very lopsided.

I actually didn't say you played hs sports, but that you were a hs athlete. I'm assuming you weren't picked last in gym class.

I didn't say you'd fail at 4.5. That is where I think you'll get to (Cindy thought 4.0 was your ceiling). You'll struggle at 4.5, but you'll get there. Like I said, it's an experience thing. By the time you log your 20+ years on the court, your body will be on the down side physically.

I've probably wasted far more than 10 mins of my life. On top of watching the videos, I'm sitting here analyzing you on my lunch break.

And yea, you're a kid to me. Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I am nearly old enough to be your father so I put you in the kid category. We refer to all the recent college grads as kids.

I understand that you don't want to play up as a way to accomplish a long term goal. I didn't want to either when I was a solid 4.0. But I got baited into it by a friend that was short on players for a 4.5 team. Then, I got a couple wins and received the bump. Dreaded it at the time, but I've been competitive enough.

In a nutshell, I'm being complimentary of you. I think that you probably should have self rated at 3.5 originally. 3.0 is just below you physically.

To some extent I was "the last to be picked in gym class" but thats only because I never bothered to advertise my athletic abilities the same way athletic people do. I've always thought high school sports were ridiculous, its politics for teenagers and it will get you no where in life. (for the record: I no longer believe this, but I did when I was in high school. I can see some value in high school sports now.)

The last "organized" sport I played was soccer when I was like 10 years old. I did play some other sports between then, but those were related to other activities like church or whatever.

In high school I was playing with chess pieces, computers and musical instruments more than I was anything else.

And, if you must know, I never graduated high school (got my GED 2 years later "just in case") and I most certainly didnt go to college. Very few people even know that I didnt actually graduate high school. I dropped out of high school to pursue other things. These other things have allowed me a lot of free time post 25 years old, which is why I spend a lot of time doing charity work and... recently, playing a lot of tennis. I'm not going to say im retired, but I certainly and not bound by a 9 to 5 schedule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

Probably the only non compliment I have is your serve. It might touch 100 on a hot day, but it ain't got 120 within sight. No way, no how. Your natural arm swing just doesn't get that much racket head speed. 120 is a really, really big ball that I don't know if I've faced in 20+ years. Only time I've seen it live is at UF men's matches and during tour events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Wait, let me set something straight: I have never categorically said "a 3.0 can't serve 100 mph". I think it would be very rare, but you never know.

I'm not saying this to insult you. I think your serve is very good for how much experience you have, the age at which you started playing, and your level.

But, sorry, you don't have the technique it takes to generate that kind of pace. Maybe you will develop that technique, but it's not there yet. I say that based on the videos you posted. Your service motion is still not smooth and developed enough. Your knee bend and shoulder rotation are mistimed.

That video is from a transition from my old, raw, powerful but unreliable serve motion. The reason why my timing is so off is because im transitioning from a very boxy and deliberate motion to a more fluid open one.

That video was never intended at its creation to showcase serve speed. That video at its creation was just intended to show me what I look like in the new form. I learn a lot by watching myself do things.

I merely offered that video to TT to show what I have. If I was as concerned to proving myself on the internet than learning I would just make a video of my using my old motion and ripping serves down the T.

My old serve motion requires incredible leg endurance for it to work which I cannot maintain over multiple sets. A solution was needed. The serve video you're watching is me in between the old and the new. You can see me explaining to my teacher about using the pinpoint stance. You also have to consider that this video was made on our first or second lesson, not nearly enough time to get the fluidity of motion properly timed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

What other balls get put away? Even the Bryan's don't put away balls that are rocketed into their body. It can take them 4 or 5 volleys to get the sitter they are waiting for.

Sure, there are 4.5's that aren't good net players (me). But, the balls that should get put away get put away. If they don't, the match would be very lopsided.

Yep. That is exactly what we were talking about before we went off topic. We went from "put away balls" to "5.0 singles players instantly putting away 70 mph serve returns that are an inch from their big toe 100% of the time."

"A floater is a put-away at any level" is probably a better choice of words.

110-120 out wide on demand when im serving exceptionally well. It did start with "no 3.0 can serve 100" and you're missing a lot of the things said in between. I dont use it all the time for many reasons, reasons which you didnt list.

I'm a bit over the whole serve speed stuff because its clear no matter what I produce you guys will still have some angle to play to discredit it. I'm fine with that. The reason for my Youtube channel has never been to prove claims on TT.

-You guys have not seen my big serve head on, only the second serve i've been working on.
-Even if I do "clock" it using the FPS method, I still wasnt given "80" on my second serve. There were people claiming that serve was going 65 mph, remember? By that reasoning ill have to serve 135+ before you guys nitpick something else.

The FPS method is apples to oranges and is flawed; not the least of which is the wild assumption that since a Sampras serve decelerates from 135 at racket impact to 85 at bounce (a drop in speed assumption that I seriously question) that everyone's speed drops by 40 mph. Regardless, it isn't the standard. It's as if you put mini gps sensors in a ball and posted speeds; there is nothing to relate it to save personal improvement.

A radar gun is very accurate and is no way shape or form a camera. Go clock yourself and post results. If you're hitting 120 mph out wide on demand I will be the first to say how awesome a serve you have.... for virtually any level of play. Until then it ain't happening. No way; no how.

To some extent I was "the last to be picked in gym class" but thats only because I never bothered to advertise my athletic abilities the same way athletic people do. I've always thought high school sports were ridiculous, its politics for teenagers and it will get you no where in life. (for the record: I no longer believe this, but I did when I was in high school. I can see some value in high school sports now.)

The last "organized" sport I played was soccer when I was like 10 years old. I did play some other sports between then, but those were related to other activities like church or whatever.

In high school I was playing with chess pieces, computers and musical instruments more than I was anything else.

And, if you must know, I never graduated high school (got my GED 2 years later "just in case") and I most certainly didnt go to college. Very few people even know that I didnt actually graduate high school. I dropped out of high school to pursue other things. These other things have allowed me a lot of free time post 25 years old, which is why I spend a lot of time doing charity work and... recently, playing a lot of tennis. I'm not going to say im retired, but I certainly and not bound by a 9 to 5 schedule.

That video is from a transition from my old, raw, powerful but unreliable serve motion. The reason why my timing is so off is because im transitioning from a very boxy and deliberate motion to a more fluid open one.

That video was never intended at its creation to showcase serve speed. That video at its creation was just intended to show me what I look like in the new form. I learn a lot by watching myself do things.

I merely offered that video to TT to show what I have. If I was as concerned to proving myself on the internet than learning I would just make a video of my using my old motion and ripping serves down the T.

My old serve motion requires incredible leg endurance for it to work which I cannot maintain over multiple sets. A solution was needed. The serve video you're watching is me in between the old and the new. You can see me explaining to my teacher about using the pinpoint stance. You also have to consider that this video was made on our first or second lesson, not nearly enough time to get the fluidity of motion properly timed.

Yep. That is exactly what we were talking about before we went off topic. We went from "put away balls" to "5.0 singles players instantly putting away 70 mph serve returns that are an inch from their big toe 100% of the time."

"A floater is a put-away at any level" is probably a better choice of words.

Hey Cindy, don't know if you've wasted the 10 minutes of your life that you'll never get back like I did, but this kid has videos on YouTube. He's one of those former high school athletes that is picking up the game in his early-mid 20's. the type that is athletic and coordinated enough to rally with average 4.0 guys.

I would bet this kid will get bumped in December to 3.5 and be OK. He'll run into the backboards and junkballers there and have a few frustrating defeats, but for the most part he will win out of pure athleticism. Just like he did at 3.0, which he probably never belonged at.

4.0 will be another bag for him, as there will be plenty of folks there that are as athletic and technically sound. He won't fly through that level, but he'd have to be a total mental midget to get smoked. He likely will come to rest there for a while unless he plays up and gets some fluke wins.

4.5 is the level where I think he'd get it handed to him. Most guys at 4.5 have 20+ years on the court in one way or the other. I'm the type that played juniors and quit at 17 and then picked it up again 10 years ago in my late 20's. others picked it up after college and are now 40+. That level of experience is what will be the toughest to overcome for Police.

Just so we are clear, I wouldn't dare guess how far NTRPolice can go. 4.0? 4.5? It all depends on whether he can get quality instruction, can work on fitness, can get lots of match play. That takes time, money and dedication (plus luck to stay healthy).

My point in mentioning our former TT poster's 4.0 wake-up call is that the leap between levels is huge, and the higher you get the harder it is to improve. Perhaps TT looks good on camera and has pretty strokes, but we all know how difficult it can be to translate that to match play. I hope he achieves his goals, whatever those might be.

In the meantime, he should perhaps defer to people who play types of tennis he has never once played (ladies 7.5 combo, as in this thread) and those who actually have scaled the men's 4.5 mountain.

If he's serious, however, I do have words of advice based on what I have seen at TT:

LeeD cycle....
LeeD answers a post, as he sees as reality. LeeD posts something he did back in the distant past.
Someone comes in and exxagerates LeeD's claims, and also says it's impossible, based on HIS experience with himself.
LeeD says not everyone is the same.
The debate goes on, to no satifaction.
LeeD says..."TRY this, then come back"....
The critics don't try it, but keep refuting his claims.

Just so we are clear, I wouldn't dare guess how far NTRPolice can go. 4.0? 4.5? It all depends on whether he can get quality instruction, can work on fitness, can get lots of match play. That takes time, money and dedication (plus luck to stay healthy).

My point in mentioning our former TT poster's 4.0 wake-up call is that the leap between levels is huge, and the higher you get the harder it is to improve. Perhaps TT looks good on camera and has pretty strokes, but we all know how difficult it can be to translate that to match play. I hope he achieves his goals, whatever those might be.

In the meantime, he should perhaps defer to people who play types of tennis he has never once played (ladies 7.5 combo, as in this thread) and those who actually have scaled the men's 4.5 mountain.

If he's serious, however, I do have words of advice based on what I have seen at TT:

If you want to move up, don't get married and don't have kids.

I'm purely gauging his potential talent. Sure, other things could get in the way, but I've seen guys like this and he has the core of what it takes to get to 4.5.

No higher than that though. I don't see his ball striking evolving to 5.0. Had he started 10-15 years ago, maybe.

Dunno about all the lessons, etc that folks dump cash on. I haven't paid for more than a dozen or so clinics (and never a private) in the past decade. Reliable hitting partners were my thing. And watching lots of tennis.

I know this is sorta a derail but I cant send PM's and I didnt want to make this its own thread... I guess ill post this here since most of the on-topic conversation has died down anyway...

I radar gunned my serve tonight. It was 97, out wide. We are all in agreement that the new radar unit may not be working properly and we're going to try the old one next week.

We found it strange that 3 people with their biggest serve all topped out at exactly 97. The guy who runs this used to be #1 in the state many years ago, he couldnt break 100 (he topped out at 91 if I heard right) and he said he really hopes that he didnt waste money on the new one.

It does seem to read speeds slower than 100 pretty accurately, but we're skeptical about its ability to read over 100. The average speeds of the serves from 3.0-3.5 women were about 40-50 mph on their second serves. The men were serving about 70-80 on their second's. These readings were taken during points.

After most people left we all tried to hit as big as possible. Most people seemed to serve exactly 91. One person hit 95. Three people hit 97.

This is not the same guy I take lessons from.

We'll see next week...

Now that I think about it... we should have turned it on kmh to see if it "caps" at 156.

NP, I had a similar experience on Saturday at a charity event in Mill Valley where they had a fast-serve booth set up benefiting the local high school team. 86 mph was the best I could do in ten tries. The highest up to then was 88. The next day I went by and the highest recorded was 102. Last year at the same booth I did 106 and my serve has improved over the year so should be faster than that. This was way off, there should have been servers who could do at least 120 there.

__________________
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox

I know this is sorta a derail but I cant send PM's and I didnt want to make this its own thread... I guess ill post this here since most of the on-topic conversation has died down anyway...

I radar gunned my serve tonight. It was 97, out wide. We are all in agreement that the new radar unit may not be working properly and we're going to try the old one next week.

We found it strange that 3 people with their biggest serve all topped out at exactly 97. The guy who runs this used to be #1 in the state many years ago, he couldnt break 100 (he topped out at 91 if I heard right) and he said he really hopes that he didnt waste money on the new one.

It does seem to read speeds slower than 100 pretty accurately, but we're skeptical about its ability to read over 100. The average speeds of the serves from 3.0-3.5 women were about 40-50 mph on their second serves. The men were serving about 70-80 on their second's. These readings were taken during points.

After most people left we all tried to hit as big as possible. Most people seemed to serve exactly 91. One person hit 95. Three people hit 97.

This is not the same guy I take lessons from.

We'll see next week...

Now that I think about it... we should have turned it on kmh to see if it "caps" at 156.

Well, those speeds are in line with your technique. Be proud, you're now able to truthfully state "my serve is almost 100 mph". That ain't bad. I'm 3 levels above you and that's all I've got too.

Well, those speeds are in line with your technique. Be proud, you're now able to truthfully state "my serve is almost 100 mph". That ain't bad. I'm 3 levels above you and that's all I've got too.

Uh... lol.

I didnt use my new motion for the 97 mph, I used my old motion. It took me about 5 balls to get the timing right before I hit 91. It took me about 5 more balls to hit the 97, in the box, out wide.

While 97 isnt anything to be ashamed of, the accuracy of the handheld unit is in question seeing that 3 people with their biggest, flattest serves all topped out at exactly 97. Only 1 person hit 95, and most people were topping out at 91.

I'm pretty sure if everyone there was as "delusional" as I am, im pretty sure the guy would have just told us. He would definitely say it too and I doubt he would take it a step further to test it himself and then say "I hope I didnt just waste $200. We can test the old radar gun next week."