That would be my guess. They kept saying he had kickboxing experience, but did he have any other than the WCL?

They said he was 18-0 in the WCL and 16-0 in "kickboxing". So they made it seem like he's had experience outside of the WCL, though all I can find is that he won a K-1 MAX undercard fight in Las Vegas back in 06.

Is there something like Sherdog's Fight Finder for kickboxing?

And really the larger anchor around Daniels neck is that he is supposedly representing the WCL. Even though not officially, he is definitely linked to that organization since he's their poster boy and despite the fact that this was MMA and not striking, it will reflect poorly on them. Most casual fans don't seem to seperate the two sports (and some fighters for that matter).

His hands were down at his chest the whole time too and he bounced around like a sport karate fighter.

Did you actually watch the fight? He was either clinched or on the ground 99% of the fight. I know it's tempting to take another shot at "lol, sport karate!", but that really wasn't a factor. His complete lack of a ground game and obvious inexperience were the cause of the fight's outcome.

And lol at the "guillotine"! I didn't know you could do one of those from half guard with an arm in too! I mean, I suppose it's remotely possible, but it was basically nothing more than an ineffectual head lock.

And lol at the "guillotine"! I didn't know you could do one of those from half guard with an arm in too! I mean, I suppose it's remotely possible, but it was basically nothing more than an ineffectual head lock.

The last (and I mean it probably won't happen again) time I tapped one of the pro-fighters at my gym it was with a guillotine from half-guard, with an arm in.

If he does MMA again (and he's smart about it) he'll fire his manager/trainer. By the looks of it, he basically went in there with little ground training (if any) against a seasoned MMA guy whose primary fighting style is grappling. And I have little doubt that his coaches were telling him he could do this and he could take this guy out with no problems etc., and he bought the whole package.

If the Raymond is going to take this seriously, he'll need to enlist with a top trainer/school, and there are plenty of those in California. For someone as athletic as he is, imagine the good that would come from training for a year at a place like ATT. At this point, if he doesn't take some major changes but tries MMA again, I expect the same thing to happen.

Did you actually watch the fight? He was either clinched or on the ground 99% of the fight. I know it's tempting to take another shot at "lol, sport karate!", but that really wasn't a factor. His complete lack of a ground game and obvious inexperience were the cause of the fight's outcome.

And lol at the "guillotine"! I didn't know you could do one of those from half guard with an arm in too! I mean, I suppose it's remotely possible, but it was basically nothing more than an ineffectual head lock.

Did you notice the ten seconds before he got clinched?

I think only idiots assume that someone who trains for the ring can't make the switch to the street as soon as things change. - dweidman

And really the larger anchor around Daniels neck is that he is supposedly representing the WCL. Even though not officially, he is definitely linked to that organization since he's their poster boy and despite the fact that this was MMA and not striking, it will reflect poorly on them. Most casual fans don't seem to seperate the two sports (and some fighters for that matter).

Neither did Chuck Norris for that matter. His whole thing was how his brand of mixed martial arts (Hardly ever used the term kickboxing in promotions) was more exciting than that ghey ground grappling ****.:XXonlyamo

And to be fair to Daniels, being forced into the position of Andy Souwer/Sakuraba/Gracie isn't an easy one. You're not just fighting for yourself, but for the reputation of many.

The last (and I mean it probably won't happen again) time I tapped one of the pro-fighters at my gym it was with a guillotine from half-guard, with an arm in.

I'll admit it it, from shame.

I was chilling with some older friends, and, for the sake of the story, the one in question is 6'2 and 230 pounds,

anyway, we're grappling, and i've had my share of liquid courage, so to speak, and he catches me in a guillotine. I LOL audibly, and pass to side control, then mount.

He still had me in this guillotine. I was like WTF, this normally breaks by now. Anyway, the tp of my head was touching the ground ,and he had that locked down tight, i couldn't breathe, and was about to black out, so i tapped.

Neither did Chuck Norris for that matter. His whole thing was how his brand of mixed martial arts (Hardly ever used the term kickboxing in promotions) was more exciting than that ghey ground grappling ****.:XXonlyamo

As far as I know, Norris never claimed the WCL was MMA. He's been calling it Combat Martial Arts (or CMA) in most of the article/interviews I've seen, which I guess means striking. What he does do, however, is try to separate his org from MMA by using marketing. To that end, I think what got the MMA community all riled up was his tagline "Knockouts, not tap outs." Which in a technical sense is true of the WCL (inherently, of course, since it's a striking org). But I think many MMA folks took that personally, and thought Norris simply was crapping all over their sport. And while I agree that it's probably a slight dig at MMA, I think it's likely just marketing; his way of saying "if you watch this, they won't be going to the ground."

His message was probably lost in the following uproar, since many who have not watched the WCL seem to think it involves grappling or is otherwise MMA-based. Perhaps in retrospect Norris might have chosen a different, or more MMA-friendly, tagline.

Originally Posted by yodaman

And to be fair to Daniels, being forced into the position of Andy Souwer/Sakuraba/Gracie isn't an easy one. You're not just fighting for yourself, but for the reputation of many.

Exactly. Daniels is definitely the WCL marquee fighter and as such, all the pressure to represent (in all aspects) is ever-present. He's undefeated in kickboxing (according to the Strikeforce profile), undefeated in the WCL, is unofficially representing a new organization and itís his very first MMA fight ever. I can only imagine what was going through his head as he was getting knocked down.

When they put him in the cage, all they could say is "He's the champ of the WCL!" So now he is "that WCL guy" and the world will now judge him, and the league he came from, in one fight. To use expand on your analogy, it would be like Royce entering to a boxing match as "the UFC Champ" after winning the UFC, but getting tooled by a c-level boxer. That doesnít mean he isnít a tough guy in his own sport, but regardless he is forever representing that organization/sport in the eyes of those who see the event.

If the same exact fight had happened, but it was Patrick Berry, Crafton Wallace, or Pat Smith, I don't think people would have said "that WCL guy got own3d!!"