Rom 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God, (2) so that he who is resisting an authority has withstood God's mandate. Now those who have withstood, will be getting judgment for themselves,

Isn't it nice to know that the next president is the one God has already chosen to lead our country? This gives me much consolation for I know that the direction our country goes is the direction God has already mandated.

I even find it consoling that God put Hitler and Stalin into the position of leaders. And what about all the evil they did? God will transform all that evil by His divine alchemy into the greatest good possible.

Whether McCain or Obama is president, the one elected into the highest office in the land will be put there by God. We, as Christians, should pray for them and we should lead a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity (1 Tim.2:1-3) and this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

That so witnesses with my spirit. God will place anyone at any time where and how fits His plan, including President. I understand my calling as a believer to be in line with God's Word and plans as best I know how...for instance, in my case at least, not feeling the freedom to vote for someone who wants to take away all limits on abortion. The nation/people that murders its innocents...what's the verse?

I also believe the only rebel-rousing I am called to do is "turn the world upside down for Jesus"...declaring the Good News...which I'm afraid I'm doing very little of. Just talking with my wife today about each man's spirit coming from God, going back to God, and what made Hitler be Hitler, will no longer exist when it's gone through God's "fire". Praise God, and good post, Tony. God's blessing, James.

martincisneros

I just wish the news media would stop comparing him to JFK since the JFK situation didn't end well.

Since he'll have to speak softly and carry a big stick, and since some are scared of what his spending habits are liable to be, then maybe a comparison with either of the Roosevelts would be more appropriate.

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

--Isa 6

4Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

5And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

6But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

9Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

10And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

11And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

12And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

13And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

14And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

15And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

16And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

17He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

19Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

20That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

--1 Sam 8

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 10:09:08 PM by Molly »

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martincisneros

Actually, Molly, the Scriptures you quoted aren't applicable because the Mosaic Law had Israel under a Republican form of government, contrary to those that'll try to say that Republican ideas began with Greece. But Israel was to choose leaders of 10s, 50s, 100s, and 1000s (or something like that if I got the exact numbers wrong), which was the local, county, state, and federal system that the founding fathers of the U.S. looked at that as a Scriptural pattern for in the system that they devised. Israel wanted a King, but God already had Israel as a Republic with elected representatives. The Mosaic Law was the foundation of Israel's Republic, whereas the founding fathers of the U.S. were emphatic in their writings that the United States was to be based on the New Testament, though not a particular sect/denomination.

As you probably know, the intent of separation of church and state to keep the government out of the business of the Church and to keep segments of the Church from crusading against other denominations in this country. Some conservatives like David Barton will say that the principle of separation of Church and state was only to limit the power of the state, but it included some limitations on the Church -- though not the ones we all sigh under today. It was to prevent Philadelphia, for instance, from becoming Calvin's Geneva where Calvin plotted the murder of Miguel Servetus for years and then finally got it done because dude had taken issue with his "Institutes" and had also critiqued his version of the trinity doctrine.

Elements of Church-state rule still made it into some of the state constitutions and how things were done, so that clergy back then were paid by the state even into the 1800s. Some of the denominations tried to use that as leverage against the Christian Universalist Church, so the Universalists had to go to court and get that over turned so that other denominations couldn't require them to pay a tax to Churches that they weren't members of or in harmony with. While it was a practical victory that needed to be won, I've often wondered if it was one of the legal precidents that in following decades got taken too far and got twisted into the present level of animosity between Church and state.

Barack Obama's win is actually a major victory on the part of the abolitionists of history in the United States. We'd always had African American judges in this country, going all of the way back into the 1700s, and we'd had African American members of congress in the mid-1800s. But the office of the Presidency always seemed like a glass ceiling. Alan Keyes, Jesse Jackson, and various others over the years have made repeated attempts at getting elected and couldn't. This signals a new day, that as MLK said, people will be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.

Barack Obama's not going to be the nightmare that many conservatives fear. Otherwise, Colin Powell, myself, and tens of thousands of others that had formerly voted Republican wouldn't have voted Democratic this time. I'm not going to turn this thread into a defense of Obama, but this goes along with prophecies that I've heard in Charismatic circles going all of the way back into the early 1990s. This actually was a move of God, although it's one of those where a lot of people feel like God has a whole lotta splaining to do over this one!

Anyway, moments after the election results were announced last night, I got sent this link from Carlton Pearson if anybody's interested. The audio's even very dial-up friendly:

What Americans have forgotten is that their God made them the king. YOU are the king. Your God gave you a Constitution that makes you a sovereign king within a sovereign State within a Sovereign country. But you have forgotten that. You have rejected God as a people. And, to your downfall, you have rejected yourself as a king with God given rights sealed in the contract you have with your government.

The first Declaration of these united STATES declares only one King over us, the One whom they called the Supreme Judge of the world, the King of kings, Lord Jesus Christ.

Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....That about sums it. Then we vote for more change

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....That about sums it. Then we vote for more change

You don't have our Constitution.

Must be nice living in a dream Molly

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

As believers I would hope there would be a concern about all limits being removed from abortion and the connected issues, including the likely appointments of abortion (aka, the shedding of innocent blood) friendly supreme court judges. I understand morality can't be legislated, and I also understand the current wars have killed a lot of innocents as well.

, but my conscience just wouldn't allow me to ever vote for someone so pro abortion. On the other hand, you know how it works , I probably do things your conscience would never allow you to do. Oh well, no room to judge, each one's own conscience before the Lord and all that. James.

P.S. My dear brother Martin, to you directly.... could you please explain, given the above issues, how we can see this as a "positive" move of God? (I know God's in control, etc., but my take would be more along the lines of judgment, not something for us to be ecstatic about...my ). God's blessing, James.

Molly, just a quick question, but are you a Ron Paul supporter by any chance? For me, an Obama presidency just means that the Campaign for Liberty (and myself) will have to work harder for our civil liberties and Constitution.

Molly, just a quick question, but are you a Ron Paul supporter by any chance? For me, an Obama presidency just means that the Campaign for Liberty (and myself) will have to work harder for our civil liberties and Constitution.

Yes I like Ron Paul and others who support the Constitution and are working hard to restore our Republic.

Overhere we get a new Obama every 4 year.Lots of change..... new names.... new taxes.... new problems.... new lies....That about sums it. Then we vote for more change

You don't have our Constitution.

Must be nice living in a dream Molly

Meaning what?

I'm living in reality. It's everyone else who is living in a brain washed trance that leads them to believe you have to enslave yourself to protect your freedom.

Just try to read what I wrote.Politicians all over the world, so not just US, make lots of promisses to please the ear during elections.After the elections... the real agenda opens.Then you answer with "You don't have our Constitution." just like it's the most flawless system ever created. This is not a political forum so lets just say all systems all over the world are flawed. Just assume some or to make you happy only the US system was designed perfectly. The USA system/organisation/country.gov is just a dead thing. It doesn't act good or bad. It's the people inside that do the things.And we all know not all have good intentions.America isn't that old so look to the bloodshed in the history of Europe for an instant.Europe lived by the only perfect law! It was living according to the Bible. Sounds good doesn't it?But still there was an endless string of wars that had religious roots.Or perhaps just people that used religion to get their pockets filled.A few miles from where I live a many witches where burned (on weekly/daily basis). All according to the Bible ofcourse.... :-(

My point is this:Take a good of a bad thing. Give it to mankind and it will be wrecked even further. Maybe only by the powerhunger elite; but still wrecked.Didn't the Bible exactly foretold that? Nothing will work out until Jesus becomes King.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

well let's say everyone was Jesus--meaning they had the mind of Christ.

Would there be wars? Would witches be burned? Would neighbors defame each other? Would one group torture another group?

But we have a Constitution that even protects morons from themselves [the Bill of Rights]. It has to be corrupted and destroyed before this country is broken, because it is such a firewall between the government and the rights of the people, and between one group and another. It is a guarantee against tyrannical power as long as it is not changed or defanged [which is already happening, as everyone knows.] If we don't reverse this process, we will sink under the veil of darkness as the rest of the world has done.

Until everyone is Jesus, we need to keep our Constitution in place, not diluted by hate crimes bills and gun control bills and patriot [they are mocking you with that name] acts. The guns will be the last to go because the first thing every modern tyrant has done before he finally brings down the iron fist of the dictator is to disarm the people. When that happens, it will be the end.

No other nation on earth has a Constitution like ours. Why do you suppose that is? Why don't you try to get a Bill of Rights like ours passed by the European Union and see how far you get with that. And, yet our Founders knew that every sovereign nation should have the same Constitution we do.

"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference."

Would there be wars? Would witches be burned? Would neighbors defame each other? Would one group torture another group?

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But we have a Constitution that even protects morons from themselves [the Bill of Rights]. It has to be corrupted and destroyed before this country is broken, because it is such a firewall between the government and the rights of the people, and between one group and another.

I know it's very hard to accept for you but the same goes for most of the countries of Europe.

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It is a guarantee against tyrannical power as long as it is not changed or defanged [which is already happening, as everyone knows.] If we don't reverse this process,

Same in many other countries. I know you see it that way. But i'm glad you see things go downhill in the USA. Not because the good intend of the constitution. Or the majority of the citizens. But because the morons as you call them.That's a global problem. And that was and still is my point.

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we will sink under the veil of darkness as the rest of the world has done.

It may come as a supprise but according many around the world the USA IS the veil.... Not for me BTW because I can see the difference between citizens and politicians....I know, Molly, Europeans are barbarians. But we do have PCs

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

It may come as a supprise but according many around the world the USA IS the veil.... Not for me BTW because I can see the difference between citizens and politicians....I know, Molly, Europeans are barbarians. But we do have PCs

Of course I am aware of that, and I am also aware that we have a perfect system that was set up for us by our Constitution, if only we can be true to it. Just like we have a perfect Bible if only we can be true to it.

Where does Jesus say to torture people [the Inquisition], burn witches, wage war, kill people you don't like, suppress the rights of citizens?

Nowhere. So if you see a religious organization supporting such things, know that they are wolves in sheep's clothing, and if you see governments supporting such things, know the same.

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I know it's very hard to accept for you but the same goes for most of the countries of Europe.

We don't have a history of a king or a parliament or feudal lords. We are a young country compared to Europe and have the mindset that everyone is equal. This is a divine concept right out of the Bible; we are all equal before the LORD.

But now, it seems to me that this happens within each person at some point in their lives, or for some, beyond the grave in the next age.

Yes, it is a kingdom within, but doesn't the tree produce fruit according to its type? And, if you were to suddenly turn and see Jesus in all directions, wouldn't it be a glorious world? He is here now, and someday, the mountain of God will fill the whole world.