2009.05.21 - Workshop 14

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The following is the transcript for the workshop held on Thursday May 21st 2009.

Topics for discussion/practice, starting next week, are marked in bold.

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello StimStim Morane: Hi Scathach!Pila Mulligan: hi Stim and ScathScathach Rhiadra: hello PilaStim Morane: Hi Pila!Pila Mulligan: hi ELizaScathach Rhiadra: Hello ElizaEliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Pila, Scath :)Eliza Madrigal: And GatorStim Morane: Hi Eliza!Birric Forcella: Hey!Gator Peterman: Hello everyoneEliza Madrigal: :)Eliza Madrigal: Hi BirricStim Morane: HeyScathach Rhiadra: Hello Birric, GatorStim Morane: Hi GatorStim Morane: Let's wait another minute or so ...Scathach Rhiadra: Hello GayaGaya Ethaniel: Hello :)Stim Morane: Hi GayaGaya Ethaniel: Am I still dancing cha cha by any chance?Scathach Rhiadra: no:)Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya... see no cha chaGaya Ethaniel: That's goodo :)Pila Mulligan: :)Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)Stim Morane: OK, time to get rolling.Pila Mulligan: :)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello FefonzEliza Madrigal: Hey FefFefonz Quan: Hey AllStim Morane: Hi FefonzStim Morane: Does anyone have any experiences or reflections on our topic to report?Stim Morane: I guess I'll take that as a "not yet"Pila Mulligan: :)Stim Morane: Last week we pursued various threads regarding the ways in which ethical precepts like “no intoxication” can themselves provide the basis for contemplative practice.Stim Morane: One thread that I recall NOT following up on was Aurel’s question “is it ever possible to make use of that occasional, mild form of intoxication to open up doors of perception? (as in the peyote ceremonies practiced int the south)”.Stim Morane: Does anyone want to comment on this interesting question?Pila Mulligan: yesStim Morane: please doPila Mulligan: having done some of the above, it is a method, as Aldous Huxley saidMickorod Renard: HiyaPila Mulligan: but it is a method with a trap doorStim Morane: Hi MickPila Mulligan: it is like being delivered to Mephis without seeing how you got therePila Mulligan: MemphisStim Morane: Please continue, Pila.Stim Morane: :)Stim Morane: YesPila Mulligan: so there you are in GracelandStim Morane: other comments?Pila Mulligan: wondering ...Fefonz Quan: at least it may make you nelieve Memphis exist :)Mickorod Renard: have I missed much?Fefonz Quan: believePila Mulligan: yes, exactlyStim Morane: no, Mick.Scathach Rhiadra: it is not valid perceptionPila Mulligan: there is its best offerPila Mulligan: FefonzMickorod Renard: thanksStim Morane: I guess it's a controversial matter, whether such things offer valid perception or not.Stim Morane: I would note that psychoactive plants like peyote, or even standard intoxicants like wine (a form of “spiritual catalyst” that even predates the Dionysian movements in Minoan Crete and then Greece), each have their own character.Mickorod Renard: is that something from doors of perception Pila?Stim Morane: And as Aurel mentioned, they have been used to aid spiritual opening in various ways. Clearly they are not, in that form, in conflict with the intention behind the precept against intoxication.Pila Mulligan: it is also controversial due to the illegality aspectStim Morane: truePila Mulligan: I was thinking of that book,MickEliza Madrigal: So context matters, Stim?Stim Morane: Context matters for many reasonsStim Morane: But somewhat curiously, they can be agents aiding clarity and awakeness, and, because of their very particular and somewhat coercive character, they can also be obscuring agents too. They can open us to one thing, perhaps of great importance, but also close us to others …Stim Morane: Would this assessment be agreeable to you, Scathach?Mickorod Renard: mescalin effects are linked to schitzophrenic aspectsScathach Rhiadra: yes:)Stim Morane: OK, good enoughStim Morane: Yes, Mick, that's another problem. But meditation itself can cause problems for some people.Stim Morane: It's tricky finding anything with no "down side"Mickorod Renard: all in moderation i guessStim Morane: or based on some insight, where availableStim Morane: This relates back to the general point I made earlier re “no intoxication” … that everything in our world has the potential to intoxicate us in the problematical sense of obscuring a reality of special interest in contemplative practice.Stim Morane: So we're back to that ...Stim Morane: Another way of understanding this involves the traditional idea of letting the mind be free from stopping anywhere ... that's a way of saying "getting stuck". It's a very big subject to learn this "free mind" that doesn't stop anywhere.Stim Morane: But it's a related point.Stim Morane: In any case, it is precisely the particular, coercive character of each thing in our ordinary life that makes each thing an “intoxicant” sometimes.Stim Morane: The difference between this possibility and the case with things like peyote is that at least the latter can present us with a more awakened and appreciative view along a certain line … even if this means missing something else.Stim Morane: In the case of the “coercive character” of things in general, we--our minds, emotions and habits--are simply being conditioned in various ways, not awakened in a narrow way (as with peyote, etc). Also, things like peyote certainly can lead to limiting habits too. But in the traditional context of the ancient indigenous peoples of the Americas, rituals and cultural features ensure a respectful use of these agents, which may avoid or mitigate the potential trap.Stim Morane: This, at least, is one sort of perspective re Aurel's question.Stim Morane: Are there others here?Pila Mulligan: television is the opiate of the massesStim Morane: :)Mickorod Renard: I guess we are all stuck in a way by conditioning,,and some intoxications to help break that conditioningStim Morane: is our little cafe meeting free of this danger?Stim Morane: Yes, good point, MickStim Morane: well, if there are no other thoughts about this area ...sophia Placebo: hiStim Morane: Hi sophiaStim Morane: Other topics we discussed were anger vs well-intended wrath, and the pervasive problem of being habit-bound. Much of what I've just been mentioning really amounts to "habit" (habit of unawakeness)Stim Morane: Comments re those?Stim Morane: perhaps now we can talk about your practice-based experience over the past weekStim Morane: :)Eliza Madrigal: Re the one thing leading to another... I did start to notice more, things like getting emotional... that itoften seems something is one thought....Eliza Madrigal: but is a big cluster...Eliza Madrigal: it is great when that starts to be seen more clearlyStim Morane: yesStim Morane: say more?Eliza Madrigal: Just that something causes a rush... and then I think I'm letting it go...Eliza Madrigal: but it has gone to three phases beyond...Stim Morane: I seeEliza Madrigal: and then I look and see it was more than it first seemedEliza Madrigal: all in a clumpStim Morane: interestingEliza Madrigal: :)Stim Morane: so you find that you can't just break the chain early on ...Eliza Madrigal: yes, with some things... seeing it is a start and a reliefStim Morane: other reports?Mickorod Renard: I noticed that people took advantage of my kindness,and this made me angry,,which is a bit contradictory to my natureStim Morane: you mean "contrary to"?Fefonz Quan: is our desire to see beautiful things, live in a 'pretty' environment also toxic?Mickorod Renard: yes,,i supose soStim Morane: what do you think, Fefonz?Stim Morane: OK MickStim Morane: so what was the next stage of that, Mick?Fefonz Quan: it is a little tricky, if we will take out all our preferences what will be left will be dull and indifferentPila Mulligan: Truthful words are not beautiful.Beautiful words are not truthful.Good men do not argue.Those who argue are not good.Those who know are not learned.The learned do not know.Stim Morane: Yes, I agree. There is nothing wrong with having preferences, FefonzBirric Forcella: Maybe we should all wear hair shirtsStim Morane: But that's different from having "attachments" in the sense discussed so much in contemplative traditionsStim Morane: You sort of are, Birric ...Stim Morane: :0Gaya Ethaniel: :)Mickorod Renard: I felt a bit sad that i felt like I should restrict my kindness to those who appreciated it,,then i thought that showing kindness was a selfish act by me in search of reward,,which again was at odds with my ethosBirric Forcella: Hair shirts have the hair inside - my pretty fur is outsideStim Morane: yes, you're right BirricBirric Forcella: Maybe you should read Rand, MicorodGaya Ethaniel: Do you feel giving freely conflicts with having mutually respected relationships Mick?Mickorod Renard: yes?Stim Morane: I see, Mick. Well this is complicated.Mickorod Renard: I am happy to give freely,,but you know,,the world seems out of balance somewhereStim Morane: :)Stim Morane: all too trueStim Morane: anyway, it's uncomfortable to find what you report, Mick ... but perhaps useful.Birric Forcella: I strictly only give as an even exchangeStim Morane: Meanwhile, your investigation won't stop you from being generous, only from being unclear about your motivesMickorod Renard: I just remembered Birric,,i have read randMickorod Renard: grin,,yes StimStim Morane: Birric, does that mean you expect a return in kind?Stim Morane: Or just that your life will be enhanced by being generous?Birric Forcella: Not necessarily in kind, but a return that makes the giving worth whileStim Morane: It's certainly understandable.Mickorod Renard: Rand in principle ,,if I am correct,,states that there are those who are strong and can take,,and feel above othersStim Morane: But perhaps you also find that it's simply a natural thing to be generous. You know, virtue is its own reward ...Gaya Ethaniel: Don't you just want to share sometime Birric?Birric Forcella: You can only share for reasons of pleasureStim Morane: ah ... well, it's a time-honored point of view.Eliza Madrigal: thinks the word gift implies not expecting a returnStim Morane: you are free to maintain that view, Birric.Birric Forcella: Well, the giving may be the pleasure in itself - but you have to be clear about the fact that it is a selfish pleasureStim Morane: let's say you meet a little kid on the street ... and she has fallen down and hurt her knee.Stim Morane: If you stop and help her, and encourage her to not be too sad, are you being selfish?Birric Forcella: I kick her in the teeth - notBirric Forcella: Yes, it is selfishStim Morane: you are so naughty, Birric!Stim Morane: :0Mickorod Renard: Rand proberbly wouldStim Morane: :)Birric Forcella: Never mindStim Morane: I think you know what we're saying, Birric. And your own view has much to say for itself.Stim Morane: Just keep watching for new perspectives.Birric Forcella: I don't want to derail the discussionStim Morane: No, you're comments are very relevant, Birric.Stim Morane: By the way, would you like to sit down?Birric Forcella: No, just let me stand for a while. I sit on a tock all day - as Sophia and Mickorod knowBirric Forcella: *rockStim Morane: OK. Feel free. But a rock? That sounds interesting ...Birric Forcella: Come to Philosophy House some day . . .Stim Morane: Oh, I see.Stim Morane: Well ... other reports?Stim Morane: OK, so let's return to the issue of finding ways to deal with the coercive and obscuring character of things, using practices like ethical precepts effectively, then meeting to discuss our findings.Stim Morane: I'm trying to decide how to facilitate that sort of experiment here.Stim Morane: As I’ve mentioned several times before, in RL, and in one other virtual world where I work with people using voice, I normally place a very strong emphasis on a practice-ground for discussion. In that other virtual group, I literally base all discussion on the common use of a single practice, which I urge people to do daily.Stim Morane: This not only focuses discussions, but it makes real growth of perspective possible, which enhances the discussions.Stim Morane: In what I’ve tried so far here in café meetings, I haven’t found a way to duplicate this emphasis. So, I feel that we should either find a new approach to maintaining an emphasis on practice, agree on a very different expectation of what fits here in workshops, or go on to try another topic starting next week. Those seem to be the choices … but even if we try another topic, we’ll still face the “practice vs something else” question.Stim Morane: So … I’d like to chat with you about your own views and advice for present and future programs.Stim Morane: Most of you are more familiar with SL than I am, and probably have a better sense of what is best suited to it. I would greatly appreciate your opinions re what is suited to SL, with text chat, open membership, etc.Mickorod Renard: what i enjoy very much is that you facilitate,self discovery..for me anyway,,StimStim Morane: Thanks. It's kind of you to say so, but I'm less certain ...Birric Forcella: What do you mean with "practice"?Stim Morane: (not re you, Mick, but in general)Mickorod Renard: grinEliza Madrigal: I feel that these workshops add clarity, Stim. The guided meditations were fantastic, and this excercize has been veryStim Morane: "Practice" means almost anything one does in life, in a concerted, experimental way, informed by a View related to the contemplative traditions emphasizing living well, waking up, etcEliza Madrigal: interesting...Stim Morane: Thanks, Eliza.Stim Morane: But still, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at here.Yakuzza Lethecus: in the first place when i read ways of knowing i thought its about episthemologyStim Morane: We really should find a way to make these meetings more grounded in "practice" and direct experienec.Eliza Madrigal: I'm rather new to SL so I can't comment on that aspect...sophia Placebo: agrees with mick , though i attended few of these workshops but each one was a door opener to new prespectives of selfStim Morane: *experienceStim Morane: I’m still learning, and am comfortable with all sorts of things, as long as they are engaging and have a chance of being helpful.Stim Morane: Any suggestions?Eliza Madrigal: is it the openess of the meetings Stim? You said you do other things online so it isn't a matter of "seeing" us?Stim Morane: no, I don't mind the avatars.Stim Morane: They're delightful.Stim Morane: But text chat plus no continuity re participants plus regularly meager emphasis on practice = a limited scope for maturation.Gaya Ethaniel: I would actually like to try focusing onsingle practice for awhile. I'd be happy to use voice if in a closed group.toBe Destiny: yesBirric Forcella: SL will change radically, very soonMickorod Renard: I guess its quite open here ,,using chat,,for diverse starands to appear,,do you find this is counterproductive Stim?Eliza Madrigal: agrees with Gaya about focusingStim Morane: Say more, Birric?toBe Destiny: the collective experience is lackingtoBe Destiny: hertoBe Destiny: in sltoBe Destiny: heretoBe Destiny: in specific waysStim Morane: Mick, text chat has lots of advantages. But for teaching direct experience, I admit I prefer voice.Birric Forcella: http://www.slapt.me/wiki/index.php/Main_PageEliza Madrigal has found the collective experience of SL overwhelmingly full at times , and a lot to take in/get used to actuallytoBe Destiny: and an audience that is the same from one time to the nextStim Morane: The reason is that when I hear someone speake, I instantly learn a great many things about that person as a unique individual, and about her/his needs, condition, etcStim Morane: speaktoBe Destiny: this means some type of admissions - as in a rl collgeScathach Rhiadra: so more like enrolled class?Stim Morane: perhaps.toBe Destiny: yesStim Morane: I don't want to shock you all. Just asking ...Stim Morane: :)Yakuzza Lethecus: why not just using voice then ?Birric Forcella: http://sldemocraticmovement.org/forum/dont_snitch_campaign_press_release_drafttoBe Destiny: this does not mean that the speaker onetime mustnever be a studentGaya Ethaniel: Close group as in stable ...Stim Morane: thanks, BirricEliza Madrigal: Ah... I'd be willing to buy a headset.. but you might hear children in the bac kground... especially my son going "Whoosh...AAhh!" hehehScathach Rhiadra: sounds good to me, and agree with gaya re voice and emphasise on practiceStim Morane: how many of you prefer sticking with text chat here?Gaya Ethaniel: closed*Birric Forcella: I think voice is counterproductive in a philo forum. You have no chat log, and you can't go back to what somebody saidStim Morane: trueStim Morane: it's not so important there, BirricMickorod Renard: also Philo gets too argumentativeBirric Forcella: Also, with typing people have to give their utterances at least a minimum of thoughtStim Morane: On that point, i don't nec agree, BirricStim Morane: I've seen a lot of evidence to the contrary in SLStim Morane: :)toBe Destiny: yestoBe Destiny: as have IFefonz Quan nods :)Stim Morane: rapid fire typing, opinions rather than insighttoBe Destiny: we need complete presentationtoBe Destiny: oftentoBe Destiny: but at the same timeStim Morane: say more, toBe?Scathach Rhiadra: and some of us can't type fast enough to keep up with chat:)toBe Destiny: the professor need to supply all that is learnedtoBe Destiny: of courseBirric Forcella: Some of us are deaf - maybe not here but in other placessophia Placebo: agrees with scathStim Morane: hmm ...toBe Destiny: our educational philosophy world wide is based on a supply side theoryStim Morane: well, I guess we'll have to consider this some more.toBe Destiny: i holdthat a demand side technlogy is now possibleStim Morane: There isn't enough time left today to make a decision.Stim Morane: Do any of you have some further comments or questions re experience?toBe Destiny: and that second school in second life will be based on this technologyMickorod Renard: I would be happy to sit quite during these sessions and listen to you StimStim Morane: I would be very unhappy re that, MickStim Morane: :)toBe Destiny: i would alsotoBe Destiny: oStim Morane: If I can't help each of you find much more of your own nature and insight, I should clam up.Stim Morane: And group interchange is crucial too.Mickorod Renard: thts nice,,thankyoutoBe Destiny: well, if the technology does not support a type of moderation then we make little progressStim Morane: yestoBe Destiny: this i9s my psoitionStim Morane: i agreeStim Morane: anyway, closing practice comments, anyone?toBe Destiny: and this does not as of nowtoBe Destiny: existtoBe Destiny: hereStim Morane: any suggestions re that?Stim Morane: I'm considering moving on to a new topic, then.toBe Destiny: what could be done with standards is to extablish something like Senate rulestoBe Destiny: openEliza Madrigal was wondering if you have things to say about 'stages' of awarenessGaya Ethaniel: Stim, can we stick to one topic/practice as you said?Scathach Rhiadra nodsStim Morane: Gaya, it's hard to stick with one topic unless there is an on-going and growing involvement with practice.Stim Morane: I don't see that yet.toBe Destiny: stages of awarenessStim Morane: Eliza, I'll try in a moment.Mickorod Renard: how can we gauge how aware we already are?toBe Destiny: as in how th Buddhist have this worked outEliza Madrigal: thank youtoBe Destiny: ortoBe Destiny: ?toBe Destiny: ahStim Morane: Gaya?toBe Destiny: gaugePila Mulligan: Stim, was contemplation in relation to science part of the plan originally?Gaya Ethaniel: yes?toBe Destiny: gauge = measurementMickorod Renard: yesStim Morane: Do you disagree with my response?Stim Morane: (Gaya)Gaya Ethaniel: Still thinking and trying to read ... to fast too much info...Stim Morane: Pila, I would always find that creeps in somewhere, yes.Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry...Stim Morane: text chat. :)Gaya Ethaniel: I follow your lead Stimif ok with ou :)Pila Mulligan lacks the technical resources to do voice chat, btwtoBe Destiny: one can not always wait for the slowestGaya Ethaniel: you*Stim Morane: Yes, Pila. That's another problem.toBe Destiny: as it is then possible for one person to make no discussion possiblePila Mulligan: but no need to wait for me :)toBe Destiny: and this often happenstoBe Destiny: in textMickorod Renard: sometimes whilst contemplating one can choose many paths,,but it would be nice to know what direction contemplation should head fortoBe Destiny: chatStim Morane: No, it it's ok with you, Pila, I'd like to keep you with us.Stim Morane: :)Pila Mulligan: :)Stim Morane: well, between now and next week, see what you can about what we've typically emphasized here.Eliza Madrigal: Stim, sometimes people are dedicated to practicing but maybe not sharing in order not to take up time, which makes it seem they aren't enaged?Stim Morane: And then we'll start making some decisions.Fefonz Quan fefonz have a preferable topic, but Stim woould not approve...Stim Morane: Eliza, that's true.Stim Morane: But that's something I think I can resolve, over time.toBe Destiny: Eliza, it seems understood that some are engaged and yet quietStim Morane: Fefonz, your latest dangerous idea?Scathach Rhiadra: :)toBe Destiny: part of public personasFefonz Quan: yep, i think so...Stim Morane: and it is ...?Fefonz Quan: codepend.....Eliza Madrigal: :)Stim Morane: :(Gaya Ethaniel: :)toBe Destiny: co dependFefonz Quan: yes i thought so :)Stim Morane: OKScathach Rhiadra: =^.^=Eliza Madrigal: hehehStim Morane: Let's try that then, starting next week. We'll do a bit with our topic of late, and then dip our toes in the water of that new topic.Fefonz Quan: but will be glad for any path chosen herePila Mulligan: prattyasamutpda ?Stim Morane: But if I see we can't really work with it in an experiential way, it will be a very short discussion.Stim Morane: Yes, Pila.Stim Morane: Eliza, I'll get back to your question next time. OK?Eliza Madrigal: Yes, thanks :)Stim Morane: Sorry about the delay.Eliza Madrigal: No worriesStim Morane: So next time, the sunset of ethics and the dawn of codependent arising.Pila Mulligan: maybe we can try a conference call :)toBe Destiny: tyPila Mulligan: bye stimStim Morane: See you then!Stim Morane: bye everyoeneGaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)Fefonz Quan: bye StimMickorod Renard: bye stimEliza Madrigal: Thanks very much Stim, Bye for nowScathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, thank youYakuzza Lethecus: byeMickorod Renard: thankyousophia Placebo: bye stim thanksFefonz Quan: So i didn't get it, what topic did we decide on?Scathach Rhiadra: codependent arising:)Gaya Ethaniel: Yours Fefonz :)Eliza Madrigal: :) he said the dawn of codependent arising :)Gaya Ethaniel: and sunset of ethicsFefonz Quan: i didn't think he agreed, there was a :( theretoBe Destiny: nicePila Mulligan: he was referring to the transition from the former topic to the new oone, it seemsScathach Rhiadra: but we have to find a way to practice it:)Gaya Ethaniel guffaws.Mickorod Renard: looks like we can do bothMickorod Renard: some sunsets last agesFefonz Quan: ? GayaGaya Ethaniel: yes?Pila Mulligan: http://www.freeconferencecall.com/prodfreeintl.aspPila Mulligan: free international conference callsFefonz Quan: ah, just wondered what that word meant. then uised dictionaryGaya Ethaniel: Or a lot of us us skype which is freeGaya Ethaniel: means laughing :)Fefonz Quan: yeah cool :)Mickorod Renard: Sophia, do you have autumn where you live?Eliza Madrigal haven't tried that but would be willing... still difficult with child destractions... wonderful but noisy :)Pila Mulligan: ... just thinking that a telephone allows voice, a closed group and little technical resourcesGaya Ethaniel: Eliza, you can turn mic on only when you speak perhaps...Eliza Madrigal: yes... but skype is video right... works the same way?Scathach Rhiadra: yes, do you have headset?Fefonz Quan: skype can be without videoEliza Madrigal: no...Eliza Madrigal: I can get one thoughMickorod Renard: I can do voice,,although I am realy stupid with itFefonz Quan: BTW - i probably wn't be here next week, going to travel someEliza Madrigal: Pila, would you be able to get a headset for the computer, or it isn't able?Pila Mulligan: it is not feasible even with a headset -- the coonection is the problemEliza Madrigal: ahPila Mulligan: 500kGaya Ethaniel: ah ok Fefonz enjoy your trip :)Mickorod Renard: I have headset on my computerPila Mulligan: barely stays alive with textScathach Rhiadra: so you wil miss the start of codependent arisingPila Mulligan: :)Fefonz Quan: you win some, you lose some....Gaya Ethaniel: You can connect Skype and log off SL pilaFefonz Quan: loose*Mickorod Renard: Fef!,,and it was your suggestionFefonz Quan: i might go to a lot of effort and log on in my midnight...Scathach Rhiadra: :)Gaya Ethaniel: What time is it Fefonz? Now I meanFefonz Quan: clockdependent rising up...Fefonz Quan: i am going to change time zone.,Gaya Ethaniel: :)Fefonz Quan: 7 hours forwardMickorod Renard: just dont change your watchEliza Madrigal: :)Mickorod Renard: simpleFefonz Quan: i like my watch, why changing it? ;-)Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, have a good trip Fefonz, Namaste allEliza Madrigal: I'm going to get going for now. See you all soon I'm sure :)Gaya Ethaniel: Good night ElizaFefonz Quan: thanks Scath, NamasterMickorod Renard: bye Eliza,,andPila Mulligan: bye folksFefonz Quan: night Eliza