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Re: Cingrani...

So he doesn't know how to throw a pitch he's been throwing for pretty much his entire life?

Shenanigans, doug.

Well, he hasn't been throwing it his entire life. And no, he apparently didn't know how to throw much of a slider. Every report on it has said it isn't a good pitch for his entire career.

The breaking ball that Cingrani was throwing in Louisville resembled no pitch he had thrown in 2012. Not once did I hear a single report that he was throwing a breaking ball in the mid 70's. I saw him throw about 800 pitches last season. I never saw a pitch that looked anything like the breaking ball he was throwing in Louisville. The slider he threw last year wasn't close to the breaking ball he threw last night.

What I am saying is that the breaking ball he threw in his first start in 2013 wasn't the slider he threw last year and that it moves and has the velocity of a curveball rather than a slider. I am also saying that Tony Cingrani wouldn't be the first pitcher to grip a pitch and try to throw a slider and have it react like a curveball and that may in fact be exactly what is happening here.

Re: Cingrani...

Well, he hasn't been throwing it his entire life. And no, he apparently didn't know how to throw much of a slider. Every report on it has said it isn't a good pitch for his entire career.

Wow.

You really are insisting that Cingrani-- a professional pitcher-- doesn't know how to throw a slider.

Amazing.

Originally Posted by dougdirt

The breaking ball that Cingrani was throwing in Louisville resembled no pitch he had thrown in 2012. Not once did I hear a single report that he was throwing a breaking ball in the mid 70's. I saw him throw about 800 pitches last season. I never saw a pitch that looked anything like the breaking ball he was throwing in Louisville. The slider he threw last year wasn't close to the breaking ball he threw last night.

What I am saying is that the breaking ball he threw in his first start in 2013 wasn't the slider he threw last year and that it moves and has the velocity of a curveball rather than a slider. I am also saying that Tony Cingrani wouldn't be the first pitcher to grip a pitch and try to throw a slider and have it react like a curveball and that may in fact be exactly what is happening here.

Huh.

I saw that exact pitch more than once last year when Cingrani was pitching. I saw him throw about 110 pitches total. (IIRC, I even commented on it when, last season, you insisted that he was a flash in the pan and/or a reliever because he only had one pitch.)

It wasn't consistent, but it was there.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

"You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

I saw that exact pitch more than once last year when Cingrani was pitching. I saw him throw about 110 pitches total. (IIRC, I even commented on it when, last season, you insisted that he was a flash in the pan and/or a reliever because he only had one pitch.)

It wasn't consistent, but it was there.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

I have never said he was a flash in the pan. I have probably said he needs to use more than one pitch, which he certainly did. There were games where he would throw 80% fastballs.

Re: Cingrani...

Not once did I hear a single report that he was throwing a breaking ball in the mid 70's.

Then you weren't paying attention.

From an interview with Cingrani last season on milb.com, about his slider:

Purpose: I try to throw it as an out-pitch to righties and to lefties, and I usually don't throw an 0-0 slider to a righty; I try to throw it to lefties, but the command is just not there. I usually don't get too many strikes with it. I am trying to build it back up in bullpens and on my side days and hopefully it'll get there.

Improvement: After striking out nine over six shutout innings to earn his first Double-A win on Friday, Cingrani relayed to MiLB.com's Robert Emrich helpful slider-related advice he received from Pensacola's pitching coach. "[Tom] Brown said one phrase to me and it made my slider start working how it's supposed to work," Cingrani said. "'Come across my face when I throw it.' It was crazy. I've never had command of my slider and today, I didn't throw it in the zone for a strike, but it had the action. It was a good two-strike pitch."

Grip: My index and middle fingers aren't together when I hold it. I try to get on top of the ball and pull down.

Speed: Anywhere from 78 to 82. I try to get it up to about 84, but I am still working on it.

"You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher

Re: Cingrani...

I have never said he was a flash in the pan. I have probably said he needs to use more than one pitch, which he certainly did. There were games where he would throw 80% fastballs.

You said not to trust the numbers, that he profiled as a setup man at best. We argued about this. You insisted that his role wasn't as a starter-- not even a bad one-- because he didn't have three pitches.

Therefore, he was a flash in the pan. (My words, not yours, but your explanation.)

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

You said not to trust the numbers, that he profiled as a setup man at best. We argued about this. You insisted that his role wasn't as a starter-- not even a bad one-- because he didn't have three pitches.

Therefore, he was a flash in the pan. (My words, not yours, but your explanation.)

Re: Cingrani...

In an attempt to move beyond another semantic "who's athletic" "what's a slider" argument, can anyone comment on whether this was Cingrani's main breaking ball last night? Is this a new pitch or just a slider that accidentally looped more than usual.

Likes:

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by Superdude

In an attempt to move beyond another semantic "who's athletic" "what's a slider" argument, can anyone comment on whether this was Cingrani's main breaking ball last night? Is this a new pitch or just a slider that accidentally looped more than usual.

It's obvious you never played the game Superdude. Now sit down and only speak when spoken to.

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

It's obvious you never played the game Superdude. Now sit down and only speak when spoken to.

I think I'm in a better position than anyone to speak on the subject. If you followed the blue Ace Hardware team in '98, you would have seen me attempt to throw tons of sliders in my rare mop up appearances. Like Cingrani, I learned that intentions don't always match reality. Unlike Cingrani, I cried after the game.

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