Sans LogosMemberMaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...

i have to express my disagreement with this idea. i feel it goes against the fiat of male survivor community : "which provides resources and support for men who were sexually victimized as children, adolescents, or adults".

i see no specification of religious belief in that statement. further, i believe that the purpose of these forums is to reflect the general intent of the organization which points to a singular rallying place for all male survivors; providing support for special interest groups such as those suggested here goes against the integrity of the organization which professes an unbiased commitment to healing for all men, regardless of race, creed, gender or sexual identity, age etc, and to faction us into parts would serve only to create further dissension, supporting a divisive 'us-them' mentality which will only contribute to the complexity of matters here as they pertain to our healing.

i am all for the right to create special interest support groups in the realm of recovery from male survivor issues, but i think they should be taken 'off the premises' [in both the locational and ideological sense].

i think there was talk of starting another such splinter group here, but the ultimate decision was made to take it off-site to another website that houses groups. perhaps that would be something for the 'christian' contingent to consider.

Just an analytical question here: do you support the above approach in light of the group "Mo's On A Mission" also? When that group formed no one said it would be divisive, and it went along just fine. Plus, there are general Healing Circles built that are not geared to any specific realm. As long as the general Healing Circles and Mo's On A Mission are around, would the addition of a Christian-oriented Healing Circle make that much difference?

Sans LogosMemberMaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...

hi andy,

my understanding is that the mo's on a mission was not a formalized group. there was no purpose, no procedural rules for participating. it was just a bunch of gay guys getting together in a chat room on monday nites. i see no problem with that. there was no specific intent there, and no restrictive qualifications for participating. it was pretty much a jarrad thing, and from what i understand. even tho i am gay, i did not participate because i just am not into 'causes' per se.

if you mean by 'going along fine' that it did not cause the moderation contingent to have to put out any fires, i then see your point. apparently, it did not, thankfully, cause anyone grief or drama.

all of the healing circles that tom moderates are all non-specific. why can't people just participate in those and get quality recovery experiences. why does male survivor have to provide a place to proliferate a certain belief system? i guess if it were to make 'that much difference' remains to be seem. i am sure the guys who participate would be personally enriched in their cause, but does that warrant this web forum espousing a platform from which to speak?

again, i do support people's right to congregate with their own kind, but again i feel that we need more endeavors which will unify us, rather than divide us. i think it best we maintain the non-specific focus of the organization from entry portal and beyond.

"but does that warrant this web forum espousing a platform from which to speak?"

Neither Healing Circle nor Mo's are official Malesurvivor-endorsed platforms per se, but rather opportunities for people to gather in a specific real-time support environment apart from the hustle-and-bustle of main chat. I for one am a believer in the HC concept in general, and have watched it work out very well for many folks here.

If some folks simply wish to start a specified chat time and chat room to discuss things with, as you say, their own kind, I personally would not be against that. The only problem I might see is making it an "official" announcement (apart from simply making this thread for discussion. By official announcement, I refer to the "sticky posts" that say "new healing circle forming."), for it could come across as over-exclusionary. Otherwise, these guys can set up a chat room and time, make it a specific and private room, and have a structured environment to discuss matters important to them. Private chat rooms are set up all the time, so this shouldn't strike anyone as any different than usual.

Ron, it might also help me understand what you mean by platform, for the more I think about it, the more I see a variety of platforms on here all the time. Take the thread "Obama '08" for example. I have no interest in this thread, but it's certainly someone's platform. Plus I don't wish to detract further from this thread than we already have, since it was started to gage people's interest in a certain matter.

Sans LogosMemberMaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...

hi andy, this is a tough subject.

first comment i wanted to make is that i am not sure i understand the comparison between the mo's chat and the and the healing circle suggested here. i would understand the comparison better had the mo's chat been conceived as an attempt to create a space where a particular perspective could be reinforced to the exclusion of others. but that was never the case. anyone was always welcome. the mo's chatroom was never made private. comparing the two is like comparing oranges to apples [sorry about the fruit metaphor, purely coincidental!]

the mo's chat was available to provide a safe supportive environment where people could feel free to be themselves [often indulged in highest camp form] without fear of judgment or homophobic repercussions. anyone who was comfortable in their own skin being around a buncha flaming queens was most welcome!

on the other hand, what purpose within the aegis of the organization at large is served in having a 'christian' healing circle when no two people can agree on what it means to be christian in the first place? it seems to me that creating such a space will just pander to the sense of black and white fundamentalism that is critical of any belief system that does not concur with new testament dictates.

the gay issue notwithstanding, as a man surviving the trauma of sexual abuse, an organization that supports bigotry in the realm of religious belief cannot continue to receive my vote of support.

Quote:

The only problem I might see is making it an "official" announcement (apart from simply making this thread for discussion. By official announcement, I refer to the "sticky posts" that say "new healing circle forming."), for it could come across as over-exclusionary.

yes, in my mind, labeling anything 'christian' immediately conjures up visions of disparaging exclusionary glances toward those who do not subscribe to that particular belief system. not specifically because of the moral, but also in a sense, the theological elitism that is associated, in the minds of many 'christians' who have built their identities on the notion that some how they are 'saved' and other are not; that they somehow have been admitted in the realm of the righteous.

okay, i don't have time to thoroughly read through the thread, but i can certainly take into thought what Ron has said, and i had already considered basically making it, not so much a healing circle, but a specified time of gathering such as, mo's on a mission. i am feeling that this would be our better option, but, if everyone prefers the healing circle, then i can go that route too. i just think that us christians have a lot that we can share with each other, to know, that, with our beliefs, we are not alone in the world. thank you ron for voicing your opinion, and Andy for "standing" for my cause! both mean a lot to me! even though it sounds crazy! lol, and yes bill, i smiled :-)

Guys, I think this is a great idea. For some, our recovery can not be separated from our Faith belief system. It is very difficult to discuss the collision of our belief system with the realities of acting out, in the public forums. We need a safe place where we can discuss these issues, live, and without concern of triggering massive reactions from those who may have been severely damaged by the church or disagree with our approach to recovery. If we openly discuss these struggles in the Lounge Chat, I have witnessed nasty arguments, hurt feelings, or expressions of we are 'taking over' or we are trying to evangelize or we are being exclusive or other guys feeling excluded because we are spending time sending PM's instead of chatting.

I have met enough guys in chat, who tell me through these PM's that they are struggling with the difficult intersections of their Faith and abuse issues that a CHC could be helpful. Unforgiveness is just the tip of the iceberg. There are men here, who act out or have urges to act out due to the affects of abuse, who struggle with same sex attractions and find peace in their Faith and desire to live lives in accordance with the>

_________________________
There is a destiny that makes us brothers; No one goes his way alone; What we send into the lives of others,comes back into our own. (Edwin Markham)

I don't know Ron. I've met some atheists on here who are comfortable around the Christian-inclined, and I've met some who are completely disdainful toward such thought. I think that just depends on the person. I wouldn't expect many atheists to want to be involved in this particular endeavor.

"on the other hand, what purpose within the aegis of the organization at large is served in having a 'christian' healing circle when no two people can agree on what it means to be christian in the first place? it seems to me that creating such a space will just pander to the sense of black and white fundamentalism that is critical of any belief system that does not concur with new testament dictates. "

Wouldn't that be up to those participating to agree upon? I attend a local support organization that is Christian-inclined. People from various beliefs and churches attend there, and there is little or no friction since the purpose is focused on recovery, not on theological debates. Again I ask, what is wrong with some people creating their own chat room and talking amongst themselves there? It happens all the time on this site.

"an organization that supports bigotry in the realm of religious belief cannot continue to receive my vote of support."

Ok, I'm lost on this one. How is letting some guys have their own private chat, like what happens everyday, promoting bigotry? Accusations of bigotry are a serious charge, not to be mentioned lightly, or taken lightly.

"but also in a sense, the theological elitism that is associated, in the minds of many 'christians' who have built their identities on the notion that some how they are 'saved' and other are not; that they somehow have been admitted in the realm of the righteous. "

Well hold on now. Who is being spoken of here? Is this specifically about certain people on the board, or is this a generalization?

I have been seeking out trying to set up something like this for quite a while. I am really very interested and will do whatever I need to do to make it happen. Just let me know.

I absolutely agree, too, that I have seen it happen on a few occasions here when people are triggered by the mention of God or church and it turns into a needless debate with hurt feelings. I don't want to see anyone hurt or feel threatened or intimidated in any way. That is why I am extremely motivated to start room or circle or whatever you want to call it for Christian guys to be able to feel free to discuss our struggles according to our beliefs.

I want recovery for all of us and we are all together in this. I think that I speak for all of us who are interested in setting up a Christian room or circle, that we are not excluding ourselves from helping or being there for anyone on this site at any given time. We would just like to speak freely about our recovery from a blblical prespective without making anyone else uncomfortable.

Sans, please let it be known that I care about you and your recovery. Just discussing this subject here makes you uncomfortable. If we created our own place, you would not have to worry about us making you feel any negative feelings. That would go for anyone on this site who might be uncomfortable.

With all of that said, guys, absolutely, please count me in on this venture and let me know, someone, if there anything that I would need to do to speed up the process.

Sans LogosMemberMaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...

john i appreciate your comments.

though i have already stated my concerns, i want to clarify that my objection is not because of my own discomfort. it is not for selfish reasons that i object.

truth is i am allergic to the exclusionary mindset that often times accompanies evangelical systemic thinking, and through my life have experinced these expressions of 'christianity' to marginalize rather than liberate. to divide rather than unite.

i simply think that male survivor board needs to pay careful attention as special interest groups arise, even from within its own ranks, and begin gradually to acclimatize the spirit of the community with its own particular bias, casting like a shadow the pall of its personal personal belief system on the general character.

if this organization is going to allow its website to be immersed in the waters of christian baptism, then it misses its mark. or maybe it doesn't?

btw, i profess to be christian in the fullest sense of the word, and by that i mean that as a person gifted with homosexual orientation, in spite of what some may have us believe, i personally have experienced transformation through the ministry and life of christ, finding no stumbling block, moral spiritual or otherwise, and therefore see no point to making religious belief part and parcel of the recovery package offered through this organization.

again, i do not protest people's right to express their own corporate belief, but just raising the question of whether it is this organizations intent to support a particular perspective just because 5 or 10 or 15 or 100 people want to do so. i have no desire to control the outcome, just to know what to see when i look at this organization.

thanks for listening, and now i remove myself from further public commentary on this subject.

well, i am game, we just need to come up with a time and a day. so everyone cane start Pming me the time and day that would be good, and i will make the decision based on what works for the majority. i am really excited about this.

I am extremely motivated to start a circle for Christian guys to be able to feel free to discuss our struggles according to our beliefs.

Guys i just wanted to say that I am all for you having what ever Healing Circle you want. The Healing Circles are just a format of discussion. It is a way to get to know each other in a trusting way.

The healing Circle have nothing to do with the Male Survivor Orgization other than they provide us a meeting space. Look at it like the AA group that rents the basement meeting room from the local church. The church is just providing the space to meet.

I will be helping Philip get the HC going but will not be a part of it.

However if anyone would like to get a Spirituality Healing Circle going I would love to be part of that HC. I have talked about trying to get a Spirituality Healing Circle going for a year now.

Tom

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

Sans LogosMemberMaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...

brothers, i feel an apology is in order, and this has been bothering me for a while now.

while i don't disregard any of my previous statements and concerns made earlier in this thread, with hindsight, i have become less apprehensive, and see a bit more clearly that what my main issue boiled down to was a lack of understanding at the time, based in my own sense of fear.

my lack of understand centered around a very simple idea, and over time i have come to realize more clearly that we as recovering victims of sexual assault are trying to achieve a recovery that is not black and white.

what we share in common is that we are men struggling in our sexual identities as a result of the csa or ssa. but not everyone here is like me a single man, comfortably gay/bi/whatever and accepting of myself, and believing that my god indeed accepts me as i am without question. we are single hetero men, single undefined, married gay, married hetero, married conflicted/undefined. name the combination.

i failed to understand that we are all here struggling to come to terms with the abuse, but not all of us are separate islands like myself who really has no relationship responsibility to one individual person such as many of you who are in marriages.

the truth is the major demographic here is that most of you identify as hetero and are in hetero relationships and your desire to share that recovery experience as it relates to your shared sexual values and interests in desiring to be true to the commitments to your spouses and partners. i felt threatened by that.

when this topic first came up last summer, and having recently returned to ms, i was really feeling that if i were to participate in the community that i needed to stake my own claim and not be judged according to standards that i had no interest in measuring myself by. i didn't want to feel as if i was being marginalized because i didn't [as i saw it], and was basing my fear on the assumption that all of you believed there was only one path to recovery and that that meant trying to somehow 'get back to heterosexuality'.

i can see now how wrong i was. and i can see how painful it is for those of you who may be struggling with same sex attraction while in committed relationships that it would be important for you to rally with each other around faith principles.

my fear was that those who do not experience christianity in the same manner would be frozen out of the conversation. but since i have been here for a while, i have a much clearer sense of support in general, and no longer feel as if i need to fight for my own right to be who i am.

you guys, i admire so much. what you see as a struggle, i would give my left testicle to have. especially because of how it gives you all a point of intersection, that sadly, us single gay men, cannot avail ourselves.

since i have gotten a lot more support from my church i no longer have the need to struggle against dissenting viewpoints, because i feel very affirmed and validated in my life.

i understand better how painful your struggles and how i appreciate that you definitely deserve to have all the support as you need, and that that will not diminish me in any way.

i need to remember that my own sense of safety [it is not rape to be standing in a crowd of people who don't see eye to eye on everything] is not compromised by being here, or co-existing with my brothers who may perceive faith differently.

i know this is an old thread, but i just wanted to let you all know that i don't fear that i will be erased by your strong presence here. nothing could erase me, except myself, and i won't ever do that again.

i just wanted to say again how sorry i was to misunderstand you, and to let you know how much i truly care for all of you and how grateful i am for your presence in my life.

Ron Thank you for a most significant post,which I feel lays down the way ahead for us to support each other as we seek our recovery.

Personally I ask for no more and no less than the mutual respect you have so clearly articulated.

As a man who was single until the age of 32 my concern is that single gay guys use your single years to achieve your recovery. You have choices we have willingly surrendered to be in and stay in our marriages.

It would greatly concern me if single guys didn't feel welcome and accepted. We are all men. We were all sexually abused in our childhood. We are all seeking healing of our wounded souls, broken hearts recovery of our sexuality.

I would leave a thought to consider,that the rejection and misunderstanding you feardoes not come from we who are married Christiansbut from those outside of ms who don't understand any of us.

Let's say 20% of church people have been sexually abusedthat means 80% have not had csa.only now we have been empowered to tell our stories is the 80%hearng about csa. Some find us distastful, some go into denial,some struggle, some reject us for our acting out (in whatever form) , some reject us because we have dificulties relating to people whilst others do reach out with love and compassion. They are the gems of the Church.

Jesus said to me"but I told the parable of the shepherd who left the 99 safe sheep to go and find the one lost sheepand found him wounded, stuck in the bushes"

hey Ron - that's us. You and me and the other guys here.

Jesus finding us, rescueing us and bringing us back into safety and restoration.

Ron,Your post totally resinated with me and I myself am a hetro married man who has not only in the past struggled with ssa, but have always since my csa, have several issues with being amonst others in crowds, my own church and have issues with bonding with other men and building friendships with them.I do believe that we all share the want and motivation of recovery, some are stuck in ruts trying to break free, some moving through therapy fast and making great strides and changes in their perceptions and habits, some battle relapses which arise from the flashbacks and fears that haunt us all and revisit the detructive paths and behaviors associated with our individual experiences. I hope all this makes sence. My point is, I am so thankful that God pointed out MS to me and has provided me the opportunity to meet others like myself and break me out of my reclusive shell. Ron, your post is one which I feel is very helpful to others.I raise my glass to you in your insight and recovery and thank you for sharing.

_________________________
" If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drum. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away." Henry David Thoreau

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