I'm sure it is an attempt to stop people from bailing after a wipe or two on a boss making all raid finders be partials making people bitch about only wanting fresh runs and so on.

I kinda feel like 100% of the wipes I've had in LFR have been due to failure to obey mechanics. I'm not really sure this will help with that, though I may stick out more than one just in case the heals/dps increase is enough to make up for people who can't get off the floor in elegon, can't move bosses properly, can't run towards Lei Shei, can't kill adds, can't be arsed to move on Garalon, think the big purple spot is made of candy, etc. etc.

Having more HP / DPS will also just allow the failing raid group to ignore the mechanics that are killing them eventually.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

There have been trouble on four bosses this tier if memory serves - Elegon, Garalon, Amber Shaper and Tsulong. The two dragons got solved when players learned what to do. So, 12,5% of the time, we can ignore the mechanics 50% of the time. The other 12,5% percent of the time, we can ignore it 75% of the time. The rest of the time, we can ignore it 90% of the time.

Considering a raid contains 75% of shitheads and the raid "leader" is a 14-year old screaming at how someone or other sucks, how often can a player ignore mechanics on average?

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sampling bias. When I run LFR on Theck, I usually do so with some friends. As a result, we almost never wipe, because we have both the know-how and the brute force (in terms of raw character power / DPS / HPS / etc.) to make sure we kill stuff efficiently. Based on my limited sample, nobody ever wipes in LFR!

However, take a random LFR that doesn't get lucky enough to have any hard-mode raiders in it. The average DPS will be much, much lower - I'm sure I could find cases where the difference is 50% or more (avg ilvl of 463 vs. 490 is about a 25% difference all by itself, then account for the fact that the 463-geared players are not performing at 100% of potential). All of the sudden, mechanics that could be ignored before can't.

I think that's the purpose of this buff. Especially considering that after 5.2, most raiding guilds won't go back to do LFR ToES/HoF/MSV, because they'll run the new LFRs instead. That makes the pool of people going into the earlier LFRs much shallower, and biased towards non-raiders and poorly-geared alts. LFR ToES/HoF/MSV is likely to get a LOT worse once 5.2 hits. This buff will help make up for that in groups that are struggling.

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sagara wrote:

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

There have been trouble on four bosses this tier if memory serves - Elegon, Garalon, Amber Shaper and Tsulong. The two dragons got solved when players learned what to do. So, 12,5% of the time, we can ignore the mechanics 50% of the time. The other 12,5% percent of the time, we can ignore it 75% of the time. The rest of the time, we can ignore it 90% of the time.

Considering a raid contains 75% of shitheads and the raid "leader" is a 14-year old screaming at how someone or other sucks, how often can a player ignore mechanics on average?

I'd go further than that. I've seen wipes (I've rolled as tank and DPS in all of the LFRs, at various times) at essentially every boss (heck, even trash) *but* the following:Stone guardFengSpiritbinderGrand Vizier (strangely enough...)Blade Lord (also, strangely enough)Wind LordProtectorsSha of Fear

On the MSV bosses, there are plenty of ways for groups to make up for not doing it 'right'. I can't explain why I haven't seen wipes on the 2 HoF bosses... since staying out of the bad seems to be how Garalon gets people. Protectors is straight-forward for even the most clueless of DPS/tanks (burn the things/aggro the things!) and Sha seems to not really give much of a choice in what you *need* to do (since it sends you to the platforms and you have to click to get back).

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sampling bias. When I run LFR on Theck, I usually do so with some friends. As a result, we almost never wipe, because we have both the know-how and the brute force (in terms of raw character power / DPS / HPS / etc.) to make sure we kill stuff efficiently. Based on my limited sample, nobody ever wipes in LFR!

However, take a random LFR that doesn't get lucky enough to have any hard-mode raiders in it. The average DPS will be much, much lower - I'm sure I could find cases where the difference is 50% or more (avg ilvl of 463 vs. 490 is about a 25% difference all by itself, then account for the fact that the 463-geared players are not performing at 100% of potential). All of the sudden, mechanics that could be ignored before can't.

I think that's the purpose of this buff. Especially considering that after 5.2, most raiding guilds won't go back to do LFR ToES/HoF/MSV, because they'll run the new LFRs instead. That makes the pool of people going into the earlier LFRs much shallower, and biased towards non-raiders and poorly-geared alts. LFR ToES/HoF/MSV is likely to get a LOT worse once 5.2 hits. This buff will help make up for that in groups that are struggling.

Though I kinda wonder why they just didn't go with a 'Luck of the draw' type buff to start (yeah, I know it wouldn't help the post-wipe drops, but I'm not sure this will either), rather than a post-wipe buff. This seems to have the potential for meaning those times where 2-3 players survive result in the buff never happening, even if the group could use it.

i still go to groups that wipe on lfr. i mean, it's amazing on the bosses in TOES...i can't even describe it. windlord i wipe every week because no one uses the spears on the wall and the tanks want to pull everything. yeah, i'm doing 400dps...yeah, i'm running back up the steps after dying.

Paladin- We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.

We discussed that a bit a few pages before, and Theck had that very nice idea of linking avoidance to HoPo generation, like by activating Grand Crusader. The plus is that we stay inside the existing model without adding extra mechanics left and right.

Teranoid wrote:

Sagara wrote:Don't know- I haven't seen tsulong go beyond his third night phase in LFR (and if I remember right, he enrages after the third Day phase instead of the second on LFR)

He enrages but it didn't seem to do anything when this gem happened

I lost count how many times he went between day and night.

Wait. Wut? That passed by stupid, left depressing in the dust, and didn't bother to slow at pathetic...

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Quite often on LFR Tsulong, the health bar goes backwards on day phase and progress is only made in night, so I can imagine that happening easily with a low dps group. Haven't seen it go more than 3 day phases myself, though.

It's more frightening when you consider their implied hint that they could play with difficulty a bit and possibly avoid nerfing LFR encounters. Ranking is niche enough that it shouldn't be a big deal, people intentionally using it is worse.

Week 1:"Guys we're going to wipe 10 times on Will because Will is too hard without 10 stacks"."Hurry up and die on Garalon, we can't do this with less than 5 stacks".

Honestly, LFR just needs to be reworked and repurposed to be some kind of Tutorial-esque mode instead.

Sagara wrote:We discussed that a bit a few pages before, and Theck had that very nice idea of linking avoidance to HoPo generation, like by activating Grand Crusader. The plus is that we stay inside the existing model without adding extra mechanics left and right.

Sorry if I missed the discussion, but wouldn't GrCr proc on avoid lead to the degenerate case where your SHotR uptime scales with the number of mobs you're tanking? Unless it had a separate ICD to prevent that...

Darielle wrote:Proccing Grand Crusader would automatically cap at the respective gcd even when fighting infinite mobs. An ICD would only be if that was "too much", and tbh it probably would slip under the radar.

I don't think they want us having 100% ShotR uptime though. So the GCD would be too much.