Tell that to Lisa Welchell who played Blair from the Facts of Life. The actress lost her entire fortune in the late 80s to the market crash. Too bad she didn't buy gold.

Too bad she didn't sit tight. IIRC, the market was under 3,000 in 1987. It's almost 13,000 today.

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

So I have 100k in student debt what happens to me when this so called bubble collapses? Will my interest rates go down? lol

I think the risk three fold:

1) There could be "degree" bubble - not necessarily an education bubble, so the value of the degree won't justify its cost. I.e., students get screwed. It's like having bought a house that is now underwater. Although one gets to pay it off with devalued dollars, that same person still lost a $#@!load of money.

2) After "1)", if the perceivied value of education drops, so might the tuition and legions of professors and administators could be laid off. That may not be a bad thing for the dead weight out there.

3) You suffer as we all do for unaffordable debt and all we might suffer in a currency collapse. lol?

But from just the student perspective, your attitude might be OK. Like Seraphim wrote, you need to make sure the degree is worth it (state-licensed doctor, bar-certified lawyer, professional engineer, gubblemint edumacator, et cetera).

True. So, if gold was $500 in 1988, and it's worth $1740 now....and the stock market was at ....say...2300 in 1988 (I am just guessing - I don't remember exactly when the recovery happened) and it's worth 12,900 now...

I think the market was the better investment.

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

You almost have to. Unless you've the the entrepreneurial spirit, you won't be able to get many jobs. We already have a record number of college graduates working as wait staff in restaurants. Why should an employer hire a high school graduate when he can get a college grad for the same money?

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

obviously nobody will buy something knowing it's the peak, they always buy thinking they are buying it cheaper than later.

it seems like everybody here is saying either gold or stocks, are there no third options?

I think the key is balancing the portfolio. Metals, stocks, real estate....I think bonds are off my list right now because the interest rates are crap. CDs used to be another fixed income option, but again with the interest rates.

All of these things are good to have even if we do go through a period of massive or even hyperinflation.

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

True. So, if gold was $500 in 1988, and it's worth $1740 now....and the stock market was at ....say...2300 in 1988 (I am just guessing - I don't remember exactly when the recovery happened) and it's worth 12,900 now...

I think the market was the better investment.

July 12, 1976 1011 Highest point between Jan '73 and Oct. '82

Gold was around $130

See, let's play these stupid games all day long.

Oh no, March 6, 2009 6,626.94
Gold Price Close That day : 922.60

so do the math.

which is higher now...GOLD!

Last edited by Danke; 11-27-2012 at 11:06 PM.

Originally Posted by juleswin

Just for the record, 99% of the time I say "In my country........" I am actually messing with you people because I know you guys have absolutely no idea what happens in my country.

Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

Rome's collapse was over 100 years. The USA is the modern Rome and it's collapse is a slow motion train wreck. It is impossible to say when, save for if you are capable of spotting the beginning of hyperinflation as it occurs.

Now, as I have stated - I am not a hyperinflationist. (Although I conceed it could happen).

My stated outcome is that of massive systemic devaluation, done in coordination throughout the Western world. My view is that the interconnectedness of Western balance sheets means that once the banking system as a whole truly starts to go down, there will be a system wide shut down. Western Governments will coordinate a full fledged recapitalization of the banking system; done in unison to "harmonize" the Western world and it's trading avenues.

This is far more plausible to me then hyperinflation.

A hyperinflation would, in my view, lead to a MASSIVE starvation and culling of the herd. Since the current order requires "growth" to maintain it's profit structure - a culling of the herd is not in line with their models of control. They want control over HUMAN LIVESTOCK. More human livestock = more resources created for the benefit of the masters.

WE can pick all kinds of dates. Some will show one doing better over the selected time period, some showing the other doing better. It is difficult to do comparisons prior to 1972 though since the price of gold in dollars was set by the government- not the market.

If we want to look at the other extreme, start four years later with 1980 and end in 2001. Gold went down from $850 to $250. The Dow Jones was also about 850 that year but rose to over 10,000 by 2001. Which did better?- stocks by a huge amount.

"The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson

I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to. This post may include statements I don't personally agree with.

WE can pick all kinds of dates. Some will show one doing better over the selected time period, some showing the other doing better. It is difficult to do comparisons prior to 1972 though since the price of gold in dollars was set by the government- not the market.

If we want to look at the other extreme, start four years later with 1980 and end in 2001. Gold went down from $850 to $250. The Dow Jones was also about 850 that year but rose to over 10,000 by 2001. Which did better?- stocks by a huge amount.

curious, what happened to cause the turn around?
would that be Volker's rate rise?

rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

curious, what happened to cause the turn around?
would that be Volker's rate rise?

Pretty much. Inflation had been persistant and high. To fight that, interest rates were raised to as high as 20%. The cost was higher unemployment which hit 10% but as the rate of inflation declined, stocks rose and the price of gold fell. Lasted 20 years.

"The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson

I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to. This post may include statements I don't personally agree with.

No, everything else degrades over time. Gold does not rust and degrade. It holds many physical properties that make it an exceptional choice for storing of value.

No, that's not my question. You look to all recorded history to back up your claim that "gold is the best store of value", do you ever look to all history for any other kind of advice? Such as "for all of history home ownership, tv ownership, internet usage was either rare or non existent, therefore these all be non-necessities"?

No, that's not my question. You look to all recorded history to back up your claim that "gold is the best store of value", do you ever look to all history for any other kind of advice? Such as "for all of history home ownership, tv ownership, internet usage was either rare or non existent, therefore these all be non-necessities"?

No, I don't expect to have my tv in 100 years, but I might want to store my wealth for my grandchildren to have in 100 years.

"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

Is going to college necessary to land programming/developing jobs or can getting certificates cut it? Wondering if going to school is worth it.

for a minute I thought you meant land developer, but no, I don't think programming and coding jobs require a college degree, here's why :

The recent rise in demand of programmers and coders are for UX/UI, Objective C (iPhone apps), Java (Android apps), so if you can find a way to learn it, secure a few gigs, build your portfolio, you're more employable than a person with a degree but no experience. The experience is the hard part, getting somebody to trust, and pay you. Paying to get a college degree is easier, in that you can control your time and money if you're willing to do it.

where is the option to use my social security funds to pay off other federal debts?

You don't really have "your" social security funds (and neither do "they"). There is no "trust fund" where the money you pay in is kept safe and invested until you are elgible to collect on it. Taxes taken in this year pay expenses for this year.

"The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson

I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to. This post may include statements I don't personally agree with.

You don't really have "your" social security funds (and neither do "they"). There is no "trust fund" where the money you pay in is kept safe and invested until you are elgible to collect on it. Taxes taken in this year pay expenses for this year.

qft. Calling it a Ponzi Scheme is being polite.

Originally Posted by Torchbearer

what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.

Hear/buy my music here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Is going to college necessary to land programming/developing jobs or can getting certificates cut it? Wondering if going to school is worth it.

There are a few options for programmers.

If you are smart and a whiz kid, you should take a bunch of online tutorials and learn how to program on your own. Then go on freelancers.com and find jobs and make money on your own (go check out what is in demand and what pays the most to determine what languages to learn).

Also, if you are a whiz kid you can get your foot in the door helping out at a small company learning and programming from the ground up and you will gain the experience you need and you can stay in the private sector and grow easily. You may need to go get a cert just to get your foot in the door as a temp or something along those lines.

Then there are your two options of being an independent contractor or having a salary. An independent contractor gets paid more per hour but you are constantly looking for your next job so you have the job of acquiring contracts and the job of a programmer. If you can do both, more power to you and if you are steadily employed you will do well. But companies have people working full time to get the next contracts so it is no minor task.

On the salary end you will likely need a college degree. The degree is usually a lazy way for a manager to weed out the applicants and matching degree and experience they will determine your salary.

If you just want something stable with a steady paycheck (and you are a good kid, no trouble), you can go work for a defense contractor and make a decent salary. The biggest thing in that arena is your degree. The government actually pays the contractor based on your degree, so having one and perhaps going for your Masters is beneficial (even if you do not learn much in college, the degree is all that matters). Also, this comes with getting a security clearance. If you can get a clearance, you bump up your salary and job stability significantly. It makes it so that you will not lose your job to foreigners and kids like you fresh out of college that can probably do everything you can do, having the latest tools and work for half your salary.

I chose the latter route...my income is steady. I have also stepped that up a bit and worked in a war zone which bumps up your salary significantly (almost 3 times).

But I am now learning the hard fact that there is a salary ceiling for programmers. Above that ceiling is management where there is no ceiling. It also comes with a lot more stress, responsibility and you do not get the small joy of creating something from your own work (though a manager may argue that by telling the programmers what to code, they have created it).

Hope that helps.

Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.