I didn't see anything from me saying how great it was to have you here, and that your contributions to these discussions are invaluable. If that's because I'd failed to say it, please know it now. You don't always agree with me, and vice versa, but your perspective - and the facts you cite in support thereof - make this site worthwhile.

I'm not trying to take sides here. I like Jesse, too, and UWish has my best wishes. To the extent that feelings have been hurt, I just want to reach out across cyberspace and express my gratitude for your presence on this site.
[/quote]

GAIA:

Hi Bill -- Thanks so much for the kind thoughts/ words; please know that they are quite mutual! *g* I really admire your ability to see past a lot of the rhetoric and get to the heart of many issues.

I would not ask you (or anybody else) to "take sides", as i well understand how important it is to maintain the best possible relationships and communication here.

I don't mind someone disagreeing with me or my points -- discussion and debate is what we're here for. But questioning my integrity and motives is entirely different, andI think my participation here over the last ten years more than answers any questions anyone might have in those areas.

I think (hope?) that's the end of this; i see no reason to continue this unless UWISH has a particular response he wishes to make public (of course, USWISH, if you're reading -- you are welcome to respond privately in Email, too, if you prefer) --
Otherwise, back to our normally-(un)scheduled craziness.

I can't presume to know the reasons why, but this is at least the second or third thread that I have seen you multiple-post in defense of yourself. I don't understand it. You don't need to do it. If someone has a problem with you, it has absolutely nothing to do with you, and everything to do with them. I would venture a guess that most people can think for themselves, anyway. If anything, your post's at least prove that.

Like I said, I don't know why you do it. And I don't know if this applies, but this is one of my favorite quotes:

[QUOTE]You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one.
-John Wooden[/QUOTE]

I can't presume to know the reasons why, but this is at least the second or third thread that I have seen you multiple-post in defense of yourself. I don't understand it. You don't need to do it. If someone has a problem with you, it has absolutely nothing to do with you, and everything to do with them. I would venture a guess that most people can think for themselves, anyway. If anything, your post's at least prove that.

Like I said, I don't know why you do it. And I don't know if this applies, but this is one of my favorite quotes:

[QUOTE]You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one.
-John Wooden[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=grace7;663648]
You don't need to do it. If someone has a problem with you, it has absolutely nothing to do with you, and everything to do with them.
Grace.[/QUOTE]

GAIA:

Hi Grace; thanks for that, i appreciate it.

Personal attacks (even disguised or skillfully worded ones) and ad hominems are supposed to be agaisnt the rules, but they're not always caught in time to stop them.

You make some very good points; and all things being equal, you bring up noble values that i think should guide our behavior. However, here's the problem:

You know, there are many Jews who have noted that when the Nazis began their racist campaign, it was pretty much seen by many as an obvious absurd,ity too outrageous to be taken seriously by (especially intelligent, cultured) people. Many didn't even bother to address let alone fight the racist lies and misrepresentations, because they assumed they were so outrageous that nobody would take them sefriously. But the lies were spoken so frequently and with such conviction, and without real challenges, that many did come to believe them -- and we know the subsequent history.
That's one reason why Jews often say, "NEVER again!" -- Never again allow lies to become accepted, without speaking out against them.

It's been said that all that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good people to keep silent and do nothing.

I think anyone who is unfairly attacked has the right to set the record straight. Whether they avail themselves of that right is of course their decision - based upon everything from how they happen to feel that day, to what the attacker actually says/ does.

And there are many times i simply ignore the lies; but there are some times i feel that doing nothing may be seen as silent assent, or confession. There are some times when i feel that doing nothing is in some way, conributing to evil -- and then, i speak up.

I'm sorry if you -- or anyone else -- doesn't appreciate such messages;
Perhaps one way to prevent them is to encourage the board rules tagainst ad hominem attacks, insullts and such, to be more strictly enforced?

[QUOTE=grace7;663648]I can't presume to know the reasons why, but this is at least the second or third thread that I have seen you multiple-post in defense of yourself. I don't understand it. You don't need to do it. If someone has a problem with you, it has absolutely nothing to do with you, and everything to do with them. I would venture a guess that most people can think for themselves, anyway. If anything, your post's at least prove that.[/QUOTE]

I echo the sentiment, though I find myself drawn to the same response when I find myself under attack. I can't count the number of times somebody has flatly told me to leave but I take the invitation as a kind of laziness, if not intellectual bankruptcy. The best response to bad ideas is better ones.

[QUOTE=BillThinks4Himself;666827]I echo the sentiment, though I find myself drawn to the same response when I find myself under attack. I can't count the number of times somebody has flatly told me to leave but I take the invitation as a kind of laziness, if not intellectual bankruptcy.[/QUOTE]

Of course, Bill. It's only natural to defend ourselves and others whom we feel are being attacked. What I am saying is that it is never possible to know exactly what is up with the other person, the attacker, even if they tell us. If you take the invitations to leave as a kind of laziness or intellectual bankruptcy, that is all you. Even if you're right.

[QUOTE]The best response to bad ideas is better ones.[/QUOTE]

I don't know, Bill. Opinion is extremely volatile. Who really benefits from the response, in the end?

[QUOTE=Gaia-j;666148]...Jews often say, "NEVER again!" -- Never again allow lies to become accepted, without speaking out against them.

It's been said that all that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good people to keep silent and do nothing.

I think anyone who is unfairly attacked has the right to set the record straight. Whether they avail themselves of that right is of course their decision - based upon everything from how they happen to feel that day, to what the attacker actually says/ does.

And there are many times i simply ignore the lies; but there are some times i feel that doing nothing may be seen as silent assent, or confession. There are some times when i feel that doing nothing is in some way, conributing to evil -- and then, i speak up. [/QUOTE]

While I think your example is extreme, I fully understand and agree with your point. And maybe you do let "lies" or "ad homs" slip, I certainly haven't read every thread, (and the ones I have read I was not specifically looking for attacks against you) but as for what I have read, you have not let one blatant nor perceived "attack" (used loosely) go without mention nor defense. On one hand, good for you. On the other hand, is it excessive? (And I know that if/when you have, you could reference it. Frankly, for me, it is neither here nor there.) Like I said, I cannot presume to know if your reasons are personal or a simple matter of principle as you have stated. The whole purpose of my post was to simply tell you what you already know, that no one's opinion of you is more important than your own.

In keeping with your example of Nazi's, it was Viktor Frankl who figured out that having compassion for those who would hurt him was more powerful than anything else.

[QUOTE]I'm sorry if you -- or anyone else -- doesn't appreciate such messages;
Perhaps one way to prevent them is to encourage the board rules tagainst ad hominem attacks, insullts and such, to be more strictly enforced?[/QUOTE]

Gaia, of course I appreciate "such messages." And I don't think that they should ever be prevented. I would never suggest such a thing. It's all relative to each situation. I think your extra-long posts of positive testimonials about your character are an unnecessary form of defense. Simply my opinion. For me, the board rules prevent the extreme cases, filtering distracting, empty vicious posts. As for the rest, I trust the reader's here on b-net to figure it out. Of course there are always exceptions. I've no doubt you could provide me with those references, as well. ;)

After all, if it is only about the facts, and the rules against attacks and insults were to be more strictly enforced, perhaps any posts filled with praise and compliments should be restricted, as well.

[QUOTE=BillThinks4Himself;666834]You're comparing Jesse to the nazis? Oh, mama. Cranky, yes, but not quite comparative to Mein Kampf. For obvious reasons, I like Jesse better, even when he's on a rant.[/QUOTE]

GAIA:

Nono, i'm "comparing" untruths and misrepresentation, to evil.

Jesse is a beloved son of Heavenly Father and Mother -- i'm praying for him, and i have great hopes for him *g*