And yes, I've mentioned it before, because it always comes up for me whenever people post shock/outrage that the "children" (teenagers, really) are being sexual, especially with someone older.

While I know that age differences like that can lend themselves to exploitation, that isn't always the case. While my boyfriend was older than me, and we had a lot of differences (which is why we're not together anymore), I can assure you that I was not raped, exploited, or abused in any way. It was perfectly consensual (and perfectly legal where I live.) And we really did care about each other a lot. I also think I am fairly mature for my age - I'm 17 now - which is why I tend to be attracted to people who are a bit older in the first place.

This is why it always bothers me when people try to paint adolescent sexuality with a broad brush. It isn't that simple, and nothing annoys me more than when people insist on naming the experiences of others.

What is unusual now is that people wait a lot longer to get married. This is not historically the way it has been--marriage more or less coincided with the onset of interest in sex, which is the way it still is in many countries. What this means for the West and the US in particular is that more people are sexually active before they are married. This is one big reason why it is vital that we make sure kids get sensible sexual education, including information about contraception. Great grandma had not only the support of her husband but her entire extended family when she had my grandpa. Girls of 16 who get pregnant now are mostly single and have no such support. It is much harder for them.

people were married in their twenties generally. This was mostly true for hundreds of years. For example Georg Honer born 16 Mar 1676 married on 30 Aug 1698 to Magdalena Hauser born 13 Feb 1678. There's no way to know if they were having sex before marriage, but the rate of illegitimacy was very low until after 1805 when Napoleon secularized the government and also when the Napoleonic wars killed many of the eligible husbands.

In my study of the Spaichingen church records, for example, there were no illegitimate births in 1787 out of 75 births, one in 74 in 1788, 1 in 76 in 1789, and 1 in 72 in 1790. OTOH in 1813 there were 6 out of 88, 3 out of 66 in 1814 and 7 out of 101 in 1815.

When I was quite young, an elderly lady of my acquaintance used to drive me nuts because she's always check the birthdate of a newlywed couple's first child against their wedding date. Her explanation? "The first babe can come any time after the wedding. The rest of 'em take nine months." Being the free-wheeling hippy type that I was back then, I thought she was being quite judgmental of my generation, since IMO all those old taboos were falling away in the 70's (HA!). The way all the "elders" around me talked, no one had ever had an impure thought, much less premarital sex, before our generation.

About fifteen years ago I started delving into genealogy, and discovered that by golly the old lady was right. Lots of "premature" firstborns, no matter which branch I was exploring. And these were all churchy people -- German Catholics, German Lutherans -- didn't matter. One thing I did notice, tho. Whenever a couple had a "premature" baby, they were often on the move shortly thereafter, either emigrating to America or moving "West" if they were already here, leaving the "stigma" of premarital shenanigans behind them.

In your studies, I wonder how many of those illegitimate births would have become "preemies" if the eligible husbands hadn't been whisked off to fight in the wars.

232. actually in the Catholic records, the Priest would record that as illegitimate

They were doing the same counting as that older lady. If a baby was born 'early' they would note that, and usually that did not happen. For example Georg and Magdalena were married on 30 Aug 1698 and their first children were the twins Anna and Maria born 6 Aug 1699.

I did find what you talk about to be true in Protestant Switzerland where it seemed the first baby of every couple was born five months after the marriage, but not in this part of Catholic Germany just 100 miles to the north. The Protestants also did not note legitimate or illegitimate in their records. Switzerland was the only place I found it to be universally true. Although in my American records I often do not have marriage dates or the birthdates of all children.

My great grandmother wouldn't let him move away from home or quit school, so the new wife had to move in with them. They got married in 1930 and stayed together for 72 years until her death. They never had any children but were extremely happy together.

The law in the U.S. would rather assume that children have no sexuality until they reach the age of consent, at which point they are completely informed about their options and will refrain on letting those younger than them in on the secret.

21-year-old with 16 year old is NOT borderline and should never involve police. Sex with pre-pubescent children is obviously not borderline and should. In true borderline cases law enforcement should be a last resort and only after a psychology or youth professional makes that judgement.

I am a woman and will be the first to say that if a female doesn't want to get pregnant she must remain in control of that. In fact I know a young man who got a young gold digger pregnant. She told him that she could not get pregnant. They ended up getting married and have three kids now. Go figure. The lesson here is if we don't want our children to be taken advantage of we need to teach them viable birth control. We need to lose the judgmental attitudes and listen to them. Your sister has helped to create this situation. I see not one reason why anyone has to live in her house, especially someone who does not seek employment.

'Legal but profoundly immature' at eighteen, and her paramour was in his late twenties. The kid is cute, and disabled. The father stepped up financially (though not emotionally--he's a drinker) and they are "together' as the kids say, but the relationship is toxic, with all of those dominance and dependency issues you noted.

Of course, the teen momma (now in her twenties) in this situation is a rip roaring "I'm mature" pain in the ass who could probably benefit from counselling and medication, so it takes two to tango. She was a bright--but decidedly younger in maturity than her stated age-- girl who did very well in school, but now is relegated to taking the occasional online college course, and has missed out on the fun of college life.

Also, baby-daddy has no intention of marrying baby-momma (he has flat-out told her so, while she continues to scheme in pipe-dream fashion to attempt to rope him like a steer). Baby-momma cannot work because the kid is disabled, and is entirely dependent baby-daddy for food, shelter, sundries. It's like a fifties marriage, only without the marriage.

She knows, in her heart, that she's fucked up, but her pride won't allow her to admit the obvious, so she rumbles along in this shitty, tense relationship, bitching and lashing out at her parents for caring and worrying, and raising her disabled kid in a less-than-optimal environment with a surly drunk who won't always go outside to smoke.

I feel bad for her parents, they're good people who raised several other children who haven't been 'problem children' and who have none of these issues. There's if not always, often one, I guess. It's a dreadful mess. I only hope baby-daddy keeps his job in this economy, because I've got the biggest house and we haven't yet run out of spare room, and I sure as hell don't want to take that shit on!

He only cares about having control over her. He didn't go to college. Now she isn't going to college. She had planned to be a HS history teacher. He convinced her to run off with her 1 month before graduation. She was 17, there was nothing I could do.

She has limited contact with her father and I. She works 50-60 hours a week. He can't hold a job. he deals drugs. He is controlling and abusive.

When she turned 16 the state laws took away any control or authority I had over her- I could only keep him from trespassing on my property and block his calls.

Most days I try not to think about her to much. Just waiting for the day to come were she calls and says " can I come home?". I hope I get that call before I get the one where its the hospital calling because he beat her so badly.

But the law took away my right to keep her from harms way. They allowed teenage hormones and emotions to be in control.

If so, did they date at 16? If so, your "control" was ended the first time your daughter got into a boy's car. You may not have thought so, but that was the end of the time when you could "consent" to what your kid did. After that, the "consent" was up to her.

Anyone who thinks otherwise and has daughters is just fooling him/herself.

100. You cannot rule children,, you can only teach and love and protect

them, some may call it control,, but to me it is parental responsibility, Yes I had a daughter and personally met each date she went on,, if she had of brought home someone 26yrs old home for me to meet,, he would not have survived the return drive home,,,,there are boundaries that have to be maintained,,

Consent is still up to the parents. Yes, the kids can go behind the parents' backs, but if and when the parents find out--as they will if they are even half awake--the parents can still discipline, remove privileges, etc.

Doesn't mean the behavior will stop, since those teen hormones are mighty powerful.

But parents don't need to simply acquiesce and say, "Whatever you want."

And since I'm here, I'll try to answer your other question, though I prefer older women myself so it's hard for me to say.

What is it about these males which cause them to be interested in such young girls?

It may be that they are lonely and the girl is one who accepts them. They could be drawn together because neither fits in elsewhere. Also, that interest quite often goes both ways. My sister's first husband was twice her age...for her she was looking for a father figure, so there can be needs on both sides that go beyond the sexual. A lot of those needs may manifest themselves in a sexual way, but that may not be the basis for the need itself.

And I think you got it right when you talk about immaturity on both sides. I think in the end though the bulk of the responsibility should be on the one who is older though.

These issues are interesting, but the sexual aspect is the least concerning to me. It being legal and consensual takes it out of the realm of it being my business. Just as our legal and consensual sex life is no one else's business. It may not be what we prefer them to do, but until the law changes we can't really say much in the way of judging either one.

There are women who are in their 20s or 30s who are more sexually naive than many teens are--and these people can be sexually exploited just as much as naive teens. It's the violation of innocence at whatever age that is wrong, I think.

What I think needs to be said is that the more sex education one has, especially on contraceptives, the less likely there will be unwanted repercussions from exploring ones sexuality (unwanted pregnancy, STDs).

for example, my state, the absolute age of consent is 16. iow, a 16 yr old with a 40 yr old is legal

however, 15 and 14 are conditioned ages of consent. a person can have sex with a 14 yr old as long as they are within so many months of his/her age, same with 15.

i refer to this as the "prom law" canada, iirc, is 14.

interestingly, even though canada is 14, it is a violation of US law to leave the country for canada with the INTENT to have sex with a 14 yr old and then commit it.

so, a US citizen who met a 14 yr old in canada and then had sex with them would not be violating US law. but if the intent was formed prior to leaving , it would be. a quirk of the law.

this is the same law they use against sex tourists who go to thailand. we have no jurisdiction over what happens in thailand, but we can prosecute people for leaving the country with the intent to have sex with 12 yr old, etc.

actually I had just turned 15 and my boyfriend was 19 when I first had sex. We dated for more than a year and it was a very nice normal relationship and we always used condoms. I have very fond memories of him.

There's nothing magical that happens to a person at age 18 (or 21, if you're looking to have a beer). Our society has drawn the line, and it has to be drawn somewhere. By age 18, we figure that most young people have seen enough and learned enough of life to be responsible for their own affairs, and so the law says that you can enter into contracts, sign or witness other legal documents and so forth.

There are, of course, exceptions in both directions. I've known 14 year olds whom I'd trust with my house and my car. I've known 35 year olds who I wouldn't trust around the corner with a burnt-out match. The hyperventilating attack of the vapors by the pearl-clutching couch-fainters whenever a teenager is disclosed to have used the sexual apparatus nature has provided that person with, would be almost amusing if the consequences weren't so serious. (Consequences meaning the predictable overreaction of the fainters.)

Our trouble is that we're trying to write one set of rules that covers both the responsible 14-year-old and the irresponsible 35-year-old mentioned above. We'd move a little ways down the road to a saner society if we cut out the emotional overreactives, but they're part of society, too, for better or worse.

People take umbrage at those older people who FLOUT the law, even though I think your ex-boyfriend should have stuck with someone a little closer to his own age, and I think that much of an age difference is a bit creepy. However, he didn't break any laws so it's not my business.

When you're seventeen, you ALWAYS think you're "very mature for your age." You also think you're immortal, and you don't think that "you" will ever get old, fat, wrinkled, or your body will fail you in other ways.

Believe me, when you're thirty, forty, fifty or more, you'll realize how naive you were. And you won't want some twenty-one year old cretin trying to bang your sixteen year old little girl, either.

I haven't met too many 16 year-olds that thought they weren't mature for their age, in their humble opinions.

One consideration: If a teen is in an illegal relationship with an older man because they know they are mature enough for it, they are missing the point that responsible consideration of risks and consequences - both to oneself and maybe especially to others - is a key characteristic of maturity, so they've already failed that test.

That's why I specified "illegal" in my post. I didn't read whatever story this post was in response to, if any.

If you are trying to equate your decision to have legal sex, though, to someone else's decision to put their partner at risk for jail and life-long classification as a sex offender - and trying to imply that their decision to do so was potentially based on how mature they were - that's a nonstarter. The decision to put a person you care about in that position is, by definition, immature.

Side note: While it's a nice compliment for people to say you are mature, I'm sure you are mature in some ways and immature in others - just like the rest of us. You'd be a freak of nature if you were all one or all the other.

Either way I think we can agree it's alot creepier for a 55 year old to date a 19 year old than 21 and 16. What's even clearer is that these laws are causing more harm than good, sexuality is too complex for black and white cut-off dates. This shit should be left up to individuals and families, until it becomes clear that exploitation is involved.

66. With the lights on, potentially in something besides the missionary

position.

For this being the 'land of the free' - we sure have a lot of cultural hangups about anyone having sex (or even showing nudity). Anyone know what the laws are in countries who don't have all our issues?

279. for a nation obsessed with the "image" of sex, we sure are puritanical,

aren't we?

It's bizarre.

When I was in high school, juniors and seniors often "dated" college guys. It's nothing new. It really depends on the maturity of the folks involved, and often females are 2 years ahead of their same age male peers in social awareness and general maturity... That being said, it's up to parents to set the limits that make sense to them, discuss the situation and risks of sexuality and make sure kids who are sexually active use birth control.

In Europe I have friends who tell me that teens often have their first sexual relationships in their home bedrooms, and it's perfectly acceptable in the culture...

Never mind that whole 'decision making and consequences' routine, never mind doing things like planning for your future, holding a job and saving for future goals, studying to get a leg up and create opportunities for yourself...it's not getting a leg up, it's getting a leg OVER (to use the Brit term) that makes one an adult...!

Don't stay in school, kids...do some fucking instead! And the older your partner, the more mature you'll be!!!

I'm going into university next year for Public Affairs/Human Rights. On a fairly substantial scholarship. I maintain an A average and am involved in a lot of extra-curricular activities, both in and out of school.

243. You seem excessively proud of yourself. That's hardly a hallmark of a mature person, FWIW.

No one particularly cares if you've been sexually active, dear. Except perhaps you. The fact that you have a need to boast about your activities and start threads soliciting the opinions of complete strangers about your relationship with someone far older than you is suggestive of the opposite of maturity, though.

You do whatever you'd like, it's a free country. Do use protection, though--and not just birth control. There's a lot of STDs out there.

I was thinking of saying something similar. It is amazing how convinced we are of our perfectly superior judgment when we are 16. It was not until around forty that I realized how utterly foolish I was at 16,20 and 30. Now approaching 60 I understand that my perceptions at 40 were also flawed. I guess this is just the human condition.

JMO said: People take umbrage at those older people who FLOUT the law, even though I think your ex-boyfriend should have stuck with someone a little closer to his own age, and I think that much of an age difference is a bit creepy. However, he didn't break any laws so it's not my business.

When you're seventeen, you ALWAYS think you're "very mature for your age." You also think you're immortal, and you don't think that "you" will ever get old, fat, wrinkled, or your body will fail you in other ways.

Believe me, when you're thirty, forty, fifty or more, you'll realize how naive you were. And you won't want some twenty-one year old cretin trying to bang your sixteen year old little girl, either."

229. Relatively speaking, I was more mature than some.. wise, I knew I was not..

but if it isn't for youth and fun, when can we have it.. I certainly can't get into positions I could when I was in college... LOL.. so, sometimes we have to realize that we become wise by trying, getting burned, having a hang over: getting screwed over, screwed up, and screwed. I just wish society allowed for more screw-ups...

18. I was 17 and dated a 23yr old with an apt and access to beer, pot, and cigs.

My parents knew where I was and that I stayed over there on non-school nights. Then I went off to college. The whole time we dated, we didn't have sex.... mainly because I was going off to college... but everything else was game-on, and I think he liked the challenge.. I eventually did sleep with him when I came home the following year during summer break... No one twisted my arm, I knew what I was doing. AND I was the one with the power.. since I controlled how far he got, ever. AND most of my college days were spent being a player.. I had one serious boyfriend and it messed with my grades... I liked to keep the options open and date as many as I could. When I graduated, I met my future husband.. and no, I don't lead him around by the nose... but it was fun having the power... Men think they are the only one's who can play, ha.. nope.

A 21 yr old having serious desire for a 16 yr old is disgusting and creepy; and definitely a sign of mental and personal issues on the part of the 21 year old. The 21 yr old was obviously quite mentally immature.

There's something very odd about a guy who can go to a club, or even a college campus, and find someone "age appropriate" skulking around the sophmore class of a high school--almost like a need to be perceived as 'cool,' and odds are pretty good the guy was regarded as a dork or worse by his own peer group.

These kids think these relationships are special and new....they've been going on ever since the dawn of time, and certainly since the first high school was built.

For another, we met at a group for LGBT youth (we're both bi), and I was definitely one of the younger ones in that group, so it wasn't like he was seeking out someone younger. Also, I was the first person younger than him who he'd dated - he'd only dated people his age or older before. Sometimes people just click with each other.

I'm not saying that what you described is never true, just that I don't think it was in my case.

so, where exactly does having sex with minors become a crime? You tell me then.

When she is 16?When she is 15?When she is 14?When she is 13?When she is 12?When she is 11?When she is 10?When she is 9?When she is 8?When she is 7?When she is 6?When she is 5?When she is 4?When she is 3?When she is 2?When she is 1?

Go ahead, please pick an age out for all of us. Maybe a two year old should legally fuck her daddy because she has "feelings" for him?

The FBI along with local police rescued 48 teenage prostitutes, some as young as 13, in a nationwide sweep to remove kids from the illegal sex trade and punish the pimps.

Over a three-night initiative called Operation Cross Country, FBI agents working with local law enforcement arrested 50 pimps.

The teenage prostitutes found in the investigation ranged from 13 to 17.

Historically, federal authorities rarely play a role in prostitution investigations, but the FBI is becoming more involved as it tries to rescue children in the business.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of these kids are deemed 'throwaway kids' with no family support and no friends. They're kids that nobody wants, they're loners. Many are runaways," said FBI Deputy Assistant Director Daniel Roberts.

~snip~

The weekend's roundup marked the third such Operation Cross Country, and is part of a broader federal program launched in 2003 to crack down on the sexual exploitation of children.

List of cities where the FBI and local police conducted Operation Cross Country last weekend to rescue children from a life of prostitution and arrest their pimps.

251. What about them? Just because rape exists, it doesn't mean that all sex is rape.

So you are the kind of person who would bring up a case like the one you presented to justify locking a 15 year old boy into prison that invited a 14 year old girl to a movie theater? If you cannot distinguish between the normal behavior of teenagers, including the often present desire to date older people, and stuff like prostitution rings and child rape, I think you are the one with issues.

The FBI along with local police rescued 48 teenage prostitutes, some as young as 13, in a nationwide sweep to remove kids from the illegal sex trade and punish the pimps.

Over a three-night initiative called Operation Cross Country, FBI agents working with local law enforcement arrested 50 pimps.

The teenage prostitutes found in the investigation ranged from 13 to 17.

Historically, federal authorities rarely play a role in prostitution investigations, but the FBI is becoming more involved as it tries to rescue children in the business.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of these kids are deemed 'throwaway kids' with no family support and no friends. They're kids that nobody wants, they're loners. Many are runaways," said FBI Deputy Assistant Director Daniel Roberts.

~snip~

The weekend's roundup marked the third such Operation Cross Country, and is part of a broader federal program launched in 2003 to crack down on the sexual exploitation of children.

List of cities where the FBI and local police conducted Operation Cross Country last weekend to rescue children from a life of prostitution and arrest their pimps.

239. doesnt it make you sick. adults creating a market to feed off our children

then demand our children should make the decisions themselves since they are sexual beings too.

we have our adults that play with our teens on the net as teens explore their sexually which is as nature precludes, but in the past adults stayed out of the play, now adults have a playground. a poster on another thread says at 30 he is seeing young girls more interested in him now than when he was a teen. again, in the past the men were aware this is what our young did in their sexual exploration for validation and affirmation of their sexuality. that it isnt about the 30 yr old male at all. it is all for the girl. yet today our males seem to be clueless and thinks it means play. before men knew it was hands off, kid... just a kid, not about him

the FBI thread gets few to no hits because it is the other side of all this. this thread, the thread of a 15 yr old girl putting naked picture on net for a stranger, 27 yr old male is all innocent, good, her right and what is wrong with that. that thread gets lots of attention. the FBI thread where we actually see the consequences and problems are ignored.

a little further in hte FBI thread a poster tells about msnbc doing a show on the predators luring in youth, kidnapping and selling into sex trade, right here in the u.s. why isnt there the anger the market is there. why isnt there anger that our youth are being preyed on.... i am just beyond pissed

but as long as our very "mature" 13, 14, 15, 16 yr olds have no restrictions on their sexuality or responsibility in it, then i guess us adults have no restriction or responsibility either.

to any potential partner is 'why don't you currently have a boy/girlfriend?' You really need to figure out why, if you're lucky it's because their standards are higher than their previous partner and it's actually true. There are a lot of crazy people out there, both male and female. He has to have some kind of problem if at 21 it's that difficult to find a single 19-23 year old girl.

His blanket disgust and rejection of any opposing view of this subject smells to me of someone trying to hard to cover up their innermost private thoughts... but then again that's just his general posting style here. I'm always a little suspicious of his hard-line conservative moral outrage of generally accepted topics of ambiguous, debatable morality. He is entitled to his opinion, of course - but I tend to dismiss his commentary on most threads based on its typical insensitive, trollbaitish tone. Some people crave attention, whether positive or negative.

It seems to be his style of "cut out the politeness and bullshit and call it as I see it" is what most people have a problem with. He can certainly be annoying, but he is most often right. I confess I like the style... politeness and bullshit is tiresome and a waste of time.

Pretty disgusting and embarrassing for you. And hey... here's a hint: You have to be of significant intellect prior to being able to judge others level of intellect. If you're not, then declarations of who is or isn't dumb, intelligent or deep just make one look completely foolish (cough cough).

You really think that questioning his own sex life is even in the same universe as an example of maturity and smarts??? Stop making yourself look the fool just because you find him annoying. You already couldn't dig yourself any deeper if someone threw you a shovel. And you complain about a strawman arguement! You lowered yourself to THIS in order to avoid the issue. Way to go making yourself look about as intelligent as a box of rocks and about as mature as a squaling infant with a dirty diaper.

Why would it even cross your mind to wonder what he's doing with his own dick? That's pretty sick unless you're interested in playing with it yourself. I'd ride him like a pony and have a great time doing it even if he was hung like a tuna can. There. Happy now? Or can we expect some more insulting strawman bullshit about his sex life while you turn your inquiring mind on mine for more avoidance of the actual issue, all because you just don't like him or his posting style, or... something.

If OMC can snick his nose and pass judgment on two people who are DOING SOMETHING LEGAL (you can comprehend that legal bit, right?) then we should be able to judge THE LEGAL ACTIONS of OMC's sex life. Why is right for him to pass judgments on people's sex lives, but not us? Are you a flaming hypocrite as well? Don't take it on me because you're too dense to see the point of me asking.

I'd ride him like a pony and have a great time doing it even if he was hung like a tuna can.

You seem more fascinated with his dick than I. Whens the date between you two?

as a means of binding her. he is needy, and controlling, and anger issues, low self esteem and he needs youth to be able to dominate. when i met him, being much older, female and not about to put up with his shit, you could see him just wither (i liked him well enough). when niece eventually decided she couldnt marry him, in his dominence and he eventually quit stalking and harrassing her, he found another kid. he cannot interact with a woman his age.

my 48 yr old brother (nieces father) is living with an 18 yr old. not cause he necessarily wants an 18 yr old, but cause a 40 yr old wouldnt put up with his shit. nor a 30 yr old or woman in her twenties. so he is left with inexperience so he can.... hey, dominate.

both situations are sad, and i have empathy for the males because in their overt abuse or taking advantage, i know it is cause of how they see themselves.

that is why there are laws that protect. i dont have much of an hard line opinion. pretty much go with what society says.

i asked hubby about it. his view was, and how he has always lived this piece of life is, whatever age illegal, means NO. period. no if ands or buts.... meaning, dont even go there.

Is it wrong simply because there are laws against it, or are there laws against it because it's wrong?

There are plenty of laws on the books that make homosexual activity between consenting adults illegal -- essential invalidated by court decisions now, but still there and at one time in effect. The same thing goes for many sex acts between consenting heterosexual adults.

Was it wrong for gay men to have sex with each other back when it was against the law, and those laws were occasionally enforced, because each should have said "no" rather than risk their partner getting in trouble?

Like I said .... It does not matter what the girl's feelings are, or what the feelings of her boyfriend are. The only thing that matters is what the feelings of her legal guardian are, or the feelings of the prosecuting attorney.

A parent could pressure the prosecutor to arrest, and he could also do it without the parents blessing.

89. your feelings will put someone into prison for a very very long time

furthermore, he will live with the un-ending stigma of being a sex offender regardless of your feelings. By the time he gets out of prison, you will have married someone else, had three children, and been divorced.

Pretty selfish of you to do that to someone else just because you cannot control your own body isn't it?

...back when homosexual sex was illegal in many states, when that was enough to get you the label of "sex offender", gays were being "selfish" if they couldn't "control their own bodies" and abide by the law?

...should dictate behavior, because people with feelings for each other shouldn't do anything that would get the other person in trouble with the law.

If you won't apply that reasoning to gay people in love, but do apply it when the ages of 16 and 21 are involved, then bringing up the legal consequences is a specious argument -- you simply object to one type of relationship, and don't object to the other, and you only bring up the consequences of the law for the type of relationship that bothers you.

It matters about the motive. There was love there, so I don't see how there could be a problem with it. On the other hand, there's creeps who only think about having sex with teenagers because it's a fetish. Yuck.

Plus, I think most pedophiles are angry and controlling, and go after prepubescent to preteens.

It's so damn rare in this day and age to see a nice long term married couple, irrespective if it's high school sweethearts or shorter. I'm not a conservative by any means...since my family has turned me off to marriage. But I appreciate it when I see a nice example of a married couple (I don't care about sexual orientation---my best is getting up there...they haven't been married but they've been together for over 15 years (gay couple)). ^_^

i wanted to pop in and give you another. 15 yrs. we were older when we got married, he 28, me 32. but marriage has been really good adn incredibly easy. i had no desire to be married either, my family having turned me off too. but doesnt have to be that way....

I'm hoping so...I haven't met anyone though. Congrats on 15 years, gosh I'm moved by the people on this site. I hope you guys have many more...not limiting it in anyway to just 15. I love hearing this great part of marriage. Through trials and tribulations, everyone sticks it out since they don't see it as something lazy. I'm inspired (I love the sanctity of committed marriages and relationships).

i hear ya. i too CRAVE to hear people that are actually happy in marriage. we hear and see and so loud all the horrors, but the people that have it good are busy enjoying it so you dont hear from them as much.

i agree.

the best to you. all in good time. i certainly waited until i found someone i could spend at least a weekend with and i didnt want to get away from, lol. i was very particular. and worked for us. i didnt mind being alone so that helped

i have an almost 14 yr old son and 11 yr old son. i hand resigned self that i would have family. i am thrilled to be able to have family. agAIN, i could have lived either life and been happy, but i am thrilled to be where i am and able to experience what i am.

As someone whose former spouse is 6 1/2 years younger than me, I can tell you all about what it's like being judged by people who only saw our age difference and not our love and caring for each other. She of course was the stereotypical naive, troubled jail bait, and I was the stereotypical manipulative, perverted sex offender-pedophile. Some people focus so much on the sexual aspect of a relationship and not on the love, friendship and companionship aspects which truly defined us. We made each other happy and we learned a lot together. Enough so to get married and spend the better part of 11 years together.

Eventually, we did part ways, and surprisingly not because I felt she was getting too old and needed to find younger prey. It was actually more a practical decision, since we eventually found ourselves in different phases of life, me at 31 wanting to buy a home, settle down and start a family, and her wanting to go out late and party and drink, as any lively 24 year old might want. This is an oversimplification of why we are no longer together, but it was a major contributer.

Nowadays, I am being 'manipulated' by more mature woman, one who is three years older than me but who clearly has a cradle-robbing younger-guy fetish thing going on. At least some people might think so, as all they can see is age and not the emotional and intellectual level people can connect on.

In my first relationship, I more or less took over the 'protector' role of her father, as she was transitioning into adult life. I made her feel secure, and she was very caring and supportive and provided me with mature and fun companionship. As we progressed through life and she gained more life experience and confidence, she mostly outgrew the 'need' for a protector, and began to feel regret about being 'tied down' so young without having the opportunity and excitement of being single and 'free' as a young adult. It's hard to really argue with that.

Ironically, though she was much younger than me, she took on the more 'dominant' role in the relationship, and in a way I learned from her, since in my new relationship I am now the 'dominant' half. But I'm getting off track here...

Bottom line is, looking beyond the titillating sexual fantasy image of a relationship with between a younger girl and older man, and you will find there are very real challenges that are difficult to work through. Having been there, I see significant age differences as much more of a negative than positive factor, from a practical and emotional standpoint.

from the sample math Actually she was 16.5, I was 23. We didn't end our relationship at 24 and 31, that was about the time when the age difference began affecting the relationship from a 'stage of life' standpoint. It was at that point our relationship began to strain, and a few years later we decided to part ways amicably. She's currently 27 11/12ths, I'm 34 5/12ths

I'm 28 but have been confused for 15 or 16. However, one of my mates who was 5 years younger at the time was thought to be 3 years older than me. I was 21 at that age. Some girls do look much older than they are. I mean from what I gathered, it wasn't like they had indepth conversations it was more of what she called a "one night stand". I don't get girls. ~sigh~ Keeping in mind that I am one (I'm still too busy with watching cartoons or reading my fave Sweet Valley High book to be interested in these extracurricular activity).

I've personally got TWO stories like that. When I was 17, I met a girl who claimed to be 16. It turned out that she was 13.

When I was 16, I dated and had sex with a girl who claimed to be 15. She turned out to be 12.

In both cases, both girls looked to be the age they claimed. In the case of the second, she certainly looked to be a "young" 15, but she hung around older girls and convinced them to lie about her age. When she says she's 15, and both her sister and friends say she's 15, there isn't much room to question the claim. It was a slip of conversation after we'd been seeing each other a few weeks that set me off...the sister was 15 also and mentioned that her birthday was in January in a conversation. I already knew that my "girlfriends" birthday was in March. I went from zero to freaking out in two seconds and went off on the sister...she confessed that her younger sister was only 12 after a minute or two of berating. I can't describe how shitty I felt at that moment.

It does happen, and it's not always because the guy just wants to get it on with a young kid. Not ALL girls can pull it off, but some do. My own daughter, at 12, looked like she was about 8. At 15, she still looks like a 13 year old, so I'd NEVER buy that argument from a guy about her. Most of her friends look their ages, but she has a couple of 14 and 15 year old friends who could pass for 18 easily. She also told us recently that one of her 16 year old friends has been passing herself off as a college student and was seeing a 25 year old guy. I questioned that one until she showed me a pic on her cellphone of the girl and a couple friends as they were going out. If you met her and she claimed to be 19, you'd NEVER question it.

at 17... this is the high age and certainly 15 you are not as well equipped to figure out a 13 yr old as a 24 yr old would be able to. that is a lot more than you (at that age) of experiencing the women his age and being able to see the difference not only in the facial changes (physical), youth to puberty (as you see with daughter) but also with mentality and experience.

but i love hearing you talk about your daughter and what she is experiencing. i am raising sons, and in todays day and age.... oh lordy give me boys, lol. nah. maybe, i would do ok with girls, but thinking i would really fuck them up, probably a good thing i had boys.

Reminded me of the awkward moment when I handed my then girlfriend a birthday card in front of her mother that had "Happy 17th birthday" on the front...I couldn't figure out why she turned pale and her mother had a perplexed look on her face until later that day when she spoke to me in private regarding her birth year.

Not a huge difference, but it became pretty obvious she had lied about her age to me so as to not 'scare me off'. Funny thing is, her mom was in on our age difference (though at the time she thought we were a year closer together than we turned out to be) and had been lying to my girlfriend's dad about my age, making me out to be younger! The early days of our relationship were certainly dicey, it was glad when we were both in our 20s, at least!

241. I did. It was mostly a matter of clothes. I developed early, and when I was

wearing my oldest sister's hand-me-downs (she was 18), I got wolf whistles at age 11. If I was wearing new clothes, I never got a second glance. 'Course, I'm a good bit taller than she was, so that made the dresses even shorter.

242. because you got a whistle doesnt mean you looked over 18.... it means the guys were assholes

Edited on Mon Feb-23-09 11:38 PM by seabeyond

my niece at 11 had boobs. was out in our front lawn playing in the fuckin sprinklers with my 9 and 7 year old sons. guys in a pick up drives by, slow down, stare at her, turn into a drive way up the street, turns around and come down the street to watch her some more. she was a kid. she thought she got to still play in sprinklers as a kid. she didnt know she was a sexual object yet.

I thought it was, frankly, fucking amazing and I thought she was fucking amazing as well. Looking back, I wonder how she could've been attracted to someone my age. When I was 25, I would've had zero interest in a 16 year old.

He was a close friend of the family, worked with my Mom and Stepfather at the same factory. We were friends for two years before it ever turned romantic. I was 16, going-on-17, he was 23, when we got together. 16 was the "age of consent," but ONLY if the other partner was less than 4 years older--he was almost 7 years older. Still, my Mom was *thrilled*, to be honest. She loved this guy like another son, and I could already see the wedding bells ringing in her eyes. He worked hard, was a genuinely nice guy, didn't drink or party, and took care of his sick Mom. He always had protection, and my Mom made sure I had access to other contraceptive options too. I suppose my Mom thought I'd made a fantastic "catch"--in our poor, rural, Southern culture, finding a nice, hard-working guy who doesn't hit, doesn't drink, and is respectful to ladies was considered damn near the pinnacle of what a poor girl could hope to achieve. Life is different in the low-income tax bracket. Kids grow up faster, and with little to no hope for college or greater achievement, making a good marriage is always the ultimate goal--sad but true.

It didn't work out in the end, sadly, and we only dated for about eight months, but we're still friends, and I wasn't the least bit "damaged" by the experience. I'm grateful every day that my Mom had the good sense to judge on our individual situation and maturity levels, and not by some arbitrary magical number that doesn't really mean anything. He wound up marrying an acquaintance of ours from the factory (a bit older than me,) and they now have a little girl and a baby boy, living a perfectly boring life in Virginia. I found my same-sex partner by the time I was nineteen (I'm bi) and we've been happily together ever since.

Unlike the vast majority of the rest of the girls within my culture, I made it out. I'm in college. My kids will live by a different standard than I did, and that's a good thing. But I don't blame the ones who can't do what I've done. They do what they have to do to get by, and their standards and social norms are so different from middle-class America that it's practically another country, all wrapped-up and hidden inside of what we all know as "America." There are other cultures like this, too; my friend Shanequa from Detroit told me pretty much the same story--that where she comes from, it's more about finding a man who's willing to work, doesn't get into trouble, is responsible with his money, and who comes home to you and the kids every night. THAT is the priority. Middle-class anxieties about age differences are something of a laugh to the people that she and I come from; there are a hundred things that are considered FAR more important than that. If you find a guy like that who wants to be with you, you don't let him wander off just because he's a bit older than you. I'm sure it's just shocking and offensive to some folks around here to read that, but that's what the reality IS for these people. There are shades of the third world in the culture of the American poor, in more ways than one.

The law is meant to protect victims, I think, but it doesn't account for individual circumstances and differences in cultural norms. My Mom rightly determined that I wasn't being "victimized," and made the call to permit the relationship. It was a happy experience for me, and I have nothing but good memories. I understand completely why my mother permitted it, in hindsight; she, like most poor people, did not believe that the laws were written for people like us. And for the most part, she was right. The laws were written for people that have the luxury of things like a slower childhood, college, real careers, and so on. The poor are held to these standards by law, at least when they get caught, but that's not something that happens very often. Poor people defend their own, and aren't terribly likely to involve the ever-mistrusted police unless there's actual violence and victimization going on.

If our society wants to change this, then our society needs to do something about poverty. Those arbitrary laws are just like abstinence-only education. They tell you, "Don't do this!" but they provide NOTHING in the way of support and education to alleviate the circumstances that are behind what they're trying to stop. Create a system in which young girls from poor and ethnic families can feel reasonably assured that they have a chance at a college education and a future, and you'll decrease the number of girls getting involved with older guys. Until we address the root of the problem, our "laws" about relationships like these will continue to be ignored.

Note: As I said, *I* made it out. I do not support relationships between young teens and older guys, although I also do not regret the one that I had. My life was different then, and so were my ideas about right and wrong. Please do not paint me as some defender of predators, because I'm not. My post does two things--it defends MY relationship within the context of my cultural norms at the time, and it observes how things are for the girls still growing up within the culture of poverty. I am 100% in agreement that we should do everything that we can to stop relationships like this from happening, but I don't believe that laws alone will accomplish it. We need poverty relief and opportunities for poor teens more than we need these laws, because relieving poverty is FAR more effective at netting actual results. Only when we have the former will the latter be effective in any meaningful way.

I just think it's important to be a voice for those who don't have one whenever I can. I am something of a rarity--someone who comes from the most destitute kind of background, but who is also educated and informed enough to be able to communicate what's going on *there* to the people who have the power to help change things for the better. It's a miracle that I am where I am, and not a day goes by that I'm not grateful for the luck I've had in that respect.

I can completely understand where you're coming from...even the "approving mom" angle, as my spouse's mom went out of her way to accommodate and enable our relationship, as she absolutely adored me and still does to this day. I was the first guy she brought home who didn't act like a smart-mouth punk, had a drinking problem or habit of hitting her. I was a catch, and I was the genuine article. I taught her self-respect and confidence, and those are things she took with her even as our marriage ended.

I wonder in your case, whether you had a tougher time with dating someone older, or someone of the same sex? It's sad that other people project their insecurity and judgments on your relationships simply by looking at superficial aspects, though I suppose that is a little bit of base human behavior at work.

Thanks for posting this, it's really an interesting perspective and take on the many complex issues which influence a relationship, whether directly or indirectly.

Significantly--she's 42, I'm 29, and we've been together since we were both ten years younger. I think my experiences growing up in poverty forced me to become MUCH more mature and serious than the average 19-year-old...otherwise, she'd have never found me attractive. She despises younger, flighty girls as a rule, but I am not (nor have I ever been, sadly) one of those.

Unlike your ex, I didn't go through a period of serious regret about not being able to run around, drink, party, etc. I guess it was because we were SO poor, and my Dad was an alcoholic...the partying stuff just seemed silly and childish to me, even as a young person. I'm just grateful to be in a devoted, loving, committed relationship with someone who loves me as much today as she did when we first fell in love. That's rare in this world, especially for someone who comes from my background. My partner is from an average middle-class family, and she has learned a lot over the years that she's interacted with my family.

I realize that I am the exception to the norm, though. I wouldn't want my son dating a 23 year old when he's 16. But my son isn't going to have the same kind of childhood that I did, either. He'll get to keep his innocence a lot longer than I did--and by "innocence," I'm not talking about anything to do with sex. A lot more kids would be able to have that luxury if we could do something about the gut-twisting poverty that runs rampant within the invisible sphere of America.

We actually broke up a couple months back, but we were pretty safe and it was a pretty good relationship while it lasted. My ex-boyfriend is actually transgendered (FTM), so there was literally no possibility of me getting pregnant, but we did use protection, because STD's are also important to avoid.

71. When I was 16, I didn't want to be with the cretinous, ignoble boys my age.

They were awkward, strutted around (bwahaha), did stupid things like drink till they threw up all over the place, and talked non-stop about cars and sports. I too had a relationship with someone older, 21 and it was a very happy time. He treated me extremely well. A couple of years later I did it again, with a 35-year-old. It was the stereotypical prof/student thing. Sounds bad, but again, he taught me so much about music and literature, and well, other things. I have the most wonderful memories of him as well and feel that I got much more out of the relationship than he did. Now I've evened it out and am very happy with someone my own age. My life was far from ruined by the lovely men who were part of it. What's irking is being 30 and suddenly having several 17-year-old guys (the coffee dude and a bag boy) put the moves on me. It makes me feel old. But essentially, maybe some people just subconsciously seek out older partners in the quest for knowledge, be it for sexual experience, or otherwise. It does really depend on the person.

83. The young boys have finally figured it out. The older women have so many advantages.

They take the young lads to nice places. They PAY. They don't go on and on about their clothes, hair, the latest pop idols or music, and they aren't perceived as "needy." They simply want a nice uncomplicated and fit partner for a bit of fun and amusement. If they can teach him a few things, so much the better.

At least, that's what I read in a magazine in the dentist's office!

So, the coffee dude and the bag boy may be hoping you'll take them out for a nice meal at a snazzy restaurant, and maybe you'll let them drive your swell car! If you're taken, though, they're outta luck!

That's completely where they're coming from (I for one don't have a swell car or would be interested even if unattached) but well, guess there's no harm in trying if that's what they're after. At the very least, they'll come away from the experience knowing a little more of how to treat a woman so it's all good if it's good for both. It's probably been going on since the days of yore, just that now people are more open about it. Couldn't say for sure, but maybe the young male - older female relationship has less of the controlling, Svengali baggage to it. Most women who engage in those types of relationships probably also just want a fun romp for awhile. The dynamics of young female - older male can be more dangerous.

On edit: Does anyone remember the name of that movie, from the 70s I think, about the young boys who spend a summer at the beach and one of them ends up losing his virginity to a woman who's just lost her husband in the war? It's killing me. The theme song was so beautiful.

Harold and Maude...as a teenager, this movie was definitely treading into unfamiliar territory but it was a nice demonstration of how romantic love can and does occur between people of vastly different ages.

The young folks are aware of what sex is, etc, etc. Very few are explitated in the matter the law was written for.

There was a time when the only real option for a woman was to be married and have kids. If Hubby died, she had to find a replacement. Love might not an option, survival was the goal. A young woman who was sexually active wasn't considered marriage worthy. Her only choice was as a bar maid or prostitute.

So the goal of the law was to protect 'innocent' females from being put in a postion of being stuck in a life of 'shame.' Another words, given no choice of the matter. THIS isn't an issue today. No one expects the bride to be 'pure' before the wedding. Nor is she considered damaged goods, etc.

She is also more knowledgeable about sex, etc. So she knows what she is generallly getting in to.

What is the same is... Young ladies still have the innocents to believe in fairy tales. Girls are mature in some ways, are still immature in other ways. They can still be 'charmed' into bed. LOL! Geezes, even older folks it can happen to. But with the young ladies, it could effect their whole life still. Getting prego and dealing with that issue. Or an older guy being 'in charge', etc. This all can effect decisions on going to college, etc.

So while the law isn't as needed because women are no longer 'ruined'.... it is still needed because there are still predictors out there that prey on young women. Something needs to be there, to hold them in some sort of check.

AS for the other... Just like young folks don't want to even consider their parents having sex... The parents have the same issue in reverse. They don't say "my child', they speak with a broad brush. ALL 15 year olds, or all 16 year olds, etc. To make it even a more remote possibility that they are talking about their child.. gross!

We have sex education in schools for a reason. Parents could not talk about that stuff with their kids. For many parents, that issue is still a problem. Even folks your age, when it comes time.. will have issues talking about or thinking about their kids doing it. <shrug>

However my view is that at that age those five years make a huge difference. It's not like if somebody is 29 and their partner is 24. Frankly a 21-year old guy, at least in my experiences, is still pretty immature and, yes, a 16-year old girl can seem more mature. But, really is still a developing person emotionally and physically. When I hear that somebody whose 21 years old, old enough almost to be graduating from college is dating somebody who is 16, young enough, in some cases, to still be a sophomore in high school. It just seems weird. Not so much for the 16 year old, I can understand that person maybe looking for somebody a little bit more mature, but for a 21 year old. Aren't there any attractive, intelligent girls his age to date? At 21 and 16 there are lots of things and places you can't even go to together.

The vaginal penetration, or the emotional 'manipulation' of a younger girl. This is a question mostly directed toward some of the 'morality police' in this thread.

Hypothetical, realistic situation - consider some outgoing 16 year old girls have more relationship and sexual experience than some shy 21 year old guys. Some 16 year old girls will use that experience to seduce the 21 year old guy. Is it the same outrage or do the circumstances change your response? What if that guy was your son? Would you feel he is a creepy pervert? What if that girl was your daughter, would you think she's completely innocent and naive? Just wondering if specific circumstances alter your perception of the age issue.

Which is the point of the post you are responding to, Chimpy. We all know it's illegal, but if a 16 year old girl seeks out a 21 yr old boy, the 21 yr old is automatically a "creepy molester?" Even if he has never had sex with anyone, and his heart rate doubles any time a young lady talks to him?

Legally, yes, morally, no. It is perfectly natural for 21 year olds to see physically mature 16 year olds as sexy. If you deny this, then I charge your sex drive is either very different from most people's, or you simply forget how you felt at those ages. Moreover, it is quite easy to find a sixteen year old who is much more sexually experienced and aware than a given 21 year old.

If a single case exists where romance between a 21 and 16 year old worked out happily and healthily, you must admit it is not necessarily, or "absolutely," immoral. The OP made a post specifically to illustrate such a case. Which would cause you to wonder: are such "molestation" laws really protecting enough people to be worth it? Or are they causing more harm than good?

It seems more suspect to me when a 55 year old sleeps with a 19 year old but we will never outlaw that, nor should we.

Hence, the law needs amending, and you seem to be defending a poor social policy.

That there is a black and white cut off in age, before which sex is exploitative, after which it is not.

In the case of beating, the one act is immoral, while the rest of the relationship may not be. Beating one's lover is clearly immoral because one party is victimized to satisfy the others' rage and desire for control. It seems very hard to come up with circumstances to mitigate beating one's spouse, and I have never encountered any such IRL, hence such abuse approaches being necessarily, or absolutely, wrong. That is why it is illegal. I would question how the abused party could feel safe and happy around someone they fear, but that is a question for another day. Unlike spouse abuse, which is wrong when it happens no matter how the couple ends up, sex is not necessarily exploitative, which is exactly the point of this conversation.

I was not trying to say the ends justify the means, I was pointing out that if no one is hurt or coerced, and everyone is satisfied, THROUGH THE ENTIRE PROCESS, there is/was no problem.

You are basically saying: If a 25 year old and a 17.99 year old have sex, the 25 year old may as well have beaten the soon-to-be 18 year old, he is that heinously immoral. Once the younger turns 18 in a few days, however, it's totally kosher. Moreover, if a 65 year old is having sex with an 18 year old, this is no more worrisome than 25 and 18. This makes no sense and really hurts more than it helps.

You do not seem to be stupid, it is strange that you try to defend this indefensible policy of ours...

You are basically putting words in my mouth. 25 years old with 17.99 year old? Pathetic, yeah. Heinously immoral? Unless she's mentally incompetent, probably not. 21 with 16? Yep. Creepy and heinous. Can you imagine a situation where a 21 year old teacher would be allowed to bang his/her 16 year old student?

"one party is victimized to satisfy the others' rage and desire for control."

replace the term rage with the word lust and you've made my point.

"I would question how the abused party could feel safe and happy around someone they fear..."

My wife, who works with abused women, could tell you a few stories about women who defend and "love" their abusers endlessly. This frame of mind is, tragically, both a cause and a byproduct of abuse and exploitation. This is exactly the point. In most cases (perhaps not all, but certainly enough to warrant societal caution) a 16 year old is emotionally a child. Children are by definition incompetent to decide whether an adult is exploiting them.

I was the virgin. She was 16, I was 21. She had more sexual experience than I had, and believe it or not, she was a wonderful teacher. Waiting seemed important to me back then, and that's why at 21, I still hadn't "gone all the way". I'm sorry to offend the "morality police" on this site, but I will never apologize for that experience. We were so in love, but in the end, we broke it off for fear of legal ramifications. I would have married her and stayed with her forever, but the "law" altered our course irrevocably. We thought we'd wait the two years, and see each other again, but we were beset on all sides by reality. I don't know where she is now, but I hope to God she's had a great life, and gotten married to a wonderful man who treats her like gold...

You can all flame away all you want. But I don't consider myself a "pervert". I was a young man, and I fell in love with a beautiful girl. Some of you people would have me strung up, and put to death with your "Spanish Inquisition" morality. It'd give you great satisfaction to label me a "sexual predator" for the rest of my life. I'd much rather have my 16y.o. daughter date a responsible, decent, even slightly older guy, than some of the retarded, prick helmets that are passing for high-school seniors these days. Bunch of spoiled brat, emotionally abusive, never had the crap kicked out of them by their parents, do what ever the hell they want, scumbags. She's going to date someone anyway. Nothing I can do to prevent that.

bringing some honesty to a discussion like this is imperative if we are ever to get real. Plus, I raised three very responsible sons and they were much better boys than I was a girl, I'm not proud to say. What I'm getting at is, boys at 20-21 don't seem that old. They still seem like kids. Heck, people at 30 seem young to me now.

116. my first intercourse, .... rape, was by a man more than a decade older than i

Edited on Sun Feb-22-09 02:46 PM by seabeyond

your right... i feel much better being honest.

but honestly, after that, the choice was guys my age.

now when i was on my own at 18 and very poor and desperate in a small amount of time i did have three old farts want to be a sugar daddy.... but after lots of thought and consideration, i decided wasnt who i am.

"If the same people who are working themselves into a panic over women's sexuality spent half as much time advocating on behalf of issues that young women really need help with, we might actually be getting somewhere. But instead, we're stuck talking about what a shame it is that young women are having sex, when the truth is, it isn't a shame at all."

Twelve year olds often think they "love" the adults that are molesting them, too. Young girls and boys are not competent to make that kind of decision, adults are. This is the essence of statutory rape laws.

Any 21 year old man or woman screwing a 16 year old is beyond pathetic.

Sometimes it's creepy, sometimes it isn't. It depends on the circumstances and the individuals involved. What does being a Texan have to do with it? It's something you'll find happening throughout the world, and throughout history.

Racism and slavery, human sacrifice, polygamy. History is hardly justification.

It remains to be seen how society will evolve. Homosexuality was once entirely taboo, now it is less so. I'm happy about that. I still believe the scenario described is exploitation, and exploitation is ALWAYS wrong. Like ignorance, immaturity is not an excuse. Even an immature, mentally competent 21 year old can readily hold sexual urges under control, and other non-exploitative outlets are available.

I am willing to admit that I may be wrong on this. However, it's my deepest hope that when my son hits 21, he'll have the emotional maturity and self control to 1. find someone more mature or 2. wait for his choice of mate to mature and become a truly equal partner. I also hope that my daughter will chose a mate that is capable of this and will respect her enough to do so as well. True love can survive one or two years wait for consummation.

As the OP said, 16 was the age of consent when this happened. She also said that no coercion took place. How was she raped? Rape only applies when what happens is against the law. If no law is broken, there is no rape.

In over half the US states, kids 16 and older can have sex with whomever they wish. Is it a good idea? Probably not, but that's the law.

It's just my opinion, of course, but at 21, he should find someone near his own age. I liked older guys too at 17, but up until the age of 21, I think young women should date guys in the same peer group... for example--both in high school (even if it is a senior/freshman relationship), or both in college, or both high school graduates. It's not scientific, just a precaution to avoid predatory creeps who have been shunned by their own age group.

have lived a little. Let us know if you still feel the same way. Until then I'll say it was wrong for that 21 year to have sex with you. It matters not what your position is on the matter you're not a legal adult.

I have no regrets about the sexual relationships I had with older men when I was a teenager. I still think of them fondly and hope they're happy, wherever they are. Still waiting to feel like I was "exploited" or "raped." Hasn't happened yet. (I also have been raped. To use the same word for the two experiences is like using the same word for "juicy cheeseburger" and "shit sandwich with maggots.")

By NO means do I think this is something that's OK for everyone--but to imply that every girl who has this experience will eventually regret it just not accurate or honest.

it was safe sex, the sex isn't at issue, at 16. In my opinion. It's the possibility for emotional manipulation and abuse: the imbalance of power between a legal adult and a minor.

Young people are sexual long before our culture wants to accept. That's fine. It's the imbalance of power in relationships that is wrong, starting a young person off with dysfunction.

When I was 15, I had a 20 yo boyfriend. Because my mom was outraged.

I'm not saying we didn't care about each other. Or that I was more immature than he was. I'm saying that the relationship moved forward, not because we liked each other, but because it was a power play. Between my mother and I. Between he and his fundie family, who were horrified that he would "date" a non-christian. They were all so horrified that we ended up married for 10 years. 10 MISERABLE years, which would have ended sooner, except I still couldn't stand for my mother to be "right" about him.

Over my lifetime, both as a teenager, as the mother of teenagers, and as the teacher of teenagers, I've seen that dysfunction, and that power struggle, play out over and over again, in multiple situations and multiple ways.

I've also seen plenty of great relationships that included age differences. Just not between teenagers and adults.

...and my lover was older than yours. I too was not coerced, raped, duped, pressured, exploited, or what-have-you. It was an intense connection and a defining experience in my life, and the physical aspect of it was actually very minor. To this day, many many MANY years later, I can look back and state with confidence that I was old enough, mature enough, to make those choices at the time. When I meet some of my friends' daughters who are about that age now as I was then, I have the sense that they don't have that level of maturity, that they're more "children" in many ways than I was at the time (but also are more savvy than I was in other ways). It's very much an individual judgment call, as to what people are ready for, and at what age.

I had a 17 year old at church get very interested in me. And she was a heck of a girl - sweet, pretty, her school valedictorian. Her parents approved and her mother sure wanted it to happen, but their stance was that if things were going to work out, we couldn't actually date until she was 18. I just couldn't get past the age difference, though. 7 years was so much at that point - she was a high school senior, and I was a graduate student. I just felt like I'd be taking advantage of her, so nothing happened beyond a couple of hugs. I wouldn't hesitate to date someone 7 years younger now, but that would be 41 and 34. Big difference.

The basic problem is that the demands of modern society require that a person, in most cases, in order to be successful must have an extensive education. It is also a fact that the age of puberty has been taking place at a younger age.

I would like to also point out a couple of facts. In prior years in which higher education was for the most part restricted to the wealthy, that most of the males in these situations had access to prostitutes. Prostitution was rampant since many young females were in desperate financial situations. Of course this sexual outlet was not limited to only the wealthy. In contrast to the plight of the poor, girls of the upper class were off limits in most cases. There was also the exploitation of the wealthy young bucks who took advantage of their privileged position to exploit the girls "across the tracks." The need for sexual gratification seems to always find a solution. But far too often in the past it resulted in exploitation or to a hopeless situation that locked many young couples in poverty.

What is required is the realization of the situation in which young people find themselves today and the absolute necessity for a reasonable solution. Most people, I believe, are far less closed minded about realizing the young people in our present society have sexual needs. It is the vocal minority that continues to exert an disproportional influence on policy in regards to sexual education, availably of effective contraceptives for birth control and sexually transmitted diseases. It seems to me that rather than regarding young people's sexual desires and needs as being abnormal, that its absence would be regarded as cause of concern. Our society has been come increasingly manipulated by special interest, be it the NRA, lobbyists, or fanatical religious groups that have single interest issues. In most cases it is nothing more that the tyranny of a small minority.

I would think that young people should be encouraged to limit their sexual experiences to a reasonable age difference in the majority of cases and they should be fully aware of the possibility of exploitation due to their limited experience in relationships. This would be part of a comprehensive sex education. I firmly oppose the continence of this ridiculous effort to maintain their virginity which is in reality a total failure, but for arriving at a equitable solution that adequately provides for reasonable sexual behavior.

By the way my wife and I were sexually active before marriage and we have been married 46 years. We were both in our late twenties when we married since I pursued advanced graduate programs after getting out of the service and we just could not afford to get married and start a family. I have watched these asinine religious charlatans destroy far too many lives. It time for some sanity.

i think the big difference today as opposed to any other time is the adult world and teen world has become so mixed together in their sexual play as opposed to any other time. with internet we now have so many adults playing with teens in their sexuality and vice versa. there is not the seperateness of the past.

214. A few years ago I was the older guy in one of these types of relationships

Edited on Mon Feb-23-09 12:15 PM by bobbert

It was terribly awkward AFTER dating girls my own age. A lot of things I wanted to do, places I wanted to go you needed to be 21+, even 18+ would be really strange to not have your girlfriend with you. Mine lasted less than a month because I just thought it was strange. I liked it, but it definitely made me feel like a creep in the end and I don't like to talk about it. I know what anyone who saw us together had to be thinking, and that was enough to make me think 'am I really like that?'. The answer was, yes, I think I was. Younger girls are much easier to manipulate because they are excited just by being with someone who is older, anything else is a bonus. Was he at least a mature 21-year old? Was he at a good college getting good grades? Your standards can change as you get older.

I think it's perfectly natural for an older guy to be physically attracted to younger women. However, I would now only be with women my age, or close to it, because we are both in the same stage of life and want to do the same things. If I had not dated many girls, and a girl that was much younger than me came up to me and was interested in me, I would go for it. I think that a lot of the guys going after these high school girls have some kind of social problem with their peers or are just too shy to go for someone their own age and go for the flirty high schooler that constantly gives them attention because it's a lot easier.

I don't think a high school girl should be dating anyone that is not in a University, because I want older people to be a good influence in their life and because she should be with someone else that is going to school. Any guy that is at a University usually wants to be drinking and going to the bars with friends, so a high schooler really can't be in the same stage of life as them. Most of the relationships with that big of age difference at that young of age tend not to work out because they are at two different stages in their life and should be hanging out with two different crowds.

I think once a girl is out of high school, age range isn't too big of a deal, but before that, high school and non-high school lives are really different, and it's hard to understand that sharing a small messy apartment with a friend is not the greatest thing in the world.

Edit for clarification: 3rd paragraph it should be stated that if a high-schooler is actually dating someone that is out of high school. I think high-schoolers need to date high-schoolers.

It's not about being sexually active. Its the fact that men know how men think and act, especially with a beautiful young girl. The harsh truth is many men are only thinking with their penis. The other part of the problem is too many females under the age of 18 misjudge their level of maturity. I don't care how mature you THINK you are, at 16 the odds are you probably are not. There is a difference between being intelligent / educated and having life experience. IMLHO, I don't think a teenager has any business being in a relationship with anyone more than 2 years older than themselves. Your relationship worked out, but I'm willing to bet if you took a pool, that the majority of people would say that relationships as you described are a big mistake.

a sixteen or 15 year old boy? YUCK. When I was 16-the 18 year olds were all I was interested in. Of course I would have killed for a 21 year old. When I was 25-I wanted the 35 year olds. Now that I'm looking at 50 however, I settle for anything under 45 but over 30. Older men are the bomb when you are younger. They have money, they have experience and they worship you if you are younger. Of course it's not nice to risk a jail term for them. So..better to wait for their sakes, capiche?

when my father was 27 and my mother was 16. They celebrated their 62nd Anniversary before my father passed away. They are both gone now, but a better marriage would be hard to find. I first married at age 16 to a 21-year-old. I would still be with him had he not died at age 30 from the ravages of untreated rheumatic fever that he had as a child. My mother and I both chose well and were both mature enough to make it last. I still very much love my first and he's been gone now for 43 years. My present husband and I have been very happily together for 42 years.

For the above reasons, I agree, it is not always that simple. I also agree totally that the majority of 16 year olds are nowhere near ready for marriage - but for that matter, the majority of 25 year olds aren't either. Age is not nearly as important as maturity, commitment, and unselfishness in BOTH partners. Maturity sometimes has little to do with physical age, but physical age is "usually" necessary to grow some maturity. It's not a "black and white" issue.

you've got plenty of growing up to do. You will, be a very different person in 4 years, in 8 years, in 14 years. I thought I wouldn't be. I don't recognize pictures of myself at 17...stories about my behavior make me shudder. You are not an adult at 17-but you're getting there.When I was 17, I dated a 20 year old. We dated for years. We might have married, and most certainly have divorced, because even though after nearly 15 years, we're friends again, we are starkly different people. Heck, I almost divorced the man I married because after knowing and loving each other for years, we both changed.

Your boyfriend may have not exploited you and that's fantastic for you. But we can't have individual laws for 300 million people. You may be "mature", but you haven't even been to college yet (assuming you're planning on going). That will be an eye-popping experience.

Sorry this is rambling...I have one heck of a flu.

Good luck-you seem like a smart young lady (and I feel like an old fart).

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion
board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules
page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the
opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent
the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.