NEW DELHI: Software exporter Infosys which has sizeable onsite employee base in the US said the latest amendment to the H-1B visa rules for the

country will not be applicable to it.

"We believe the amendments are restricted to the US companies which receive funding under TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Programme) and is not applicable to companies like us. Having said that we have to wait for the law to be passed.

The Indians are probably right on the technical applicability of that particular bill. It’s mostly the companies hiring slaves from Mexico and the like, that are getting the enormous amounts of federal welfare.

Indians come here legally as programmers and constitute a small percent of the population. The opposition to their jobs comes from the far left - Ralph Nader, Denis Kucinich and now Obama. This is a red herring intended to distract us from the real immigration threat which happens to be from illegals crossing over from Mexico. The left does not want to oppose illegals but wants to pretend as though they are doing something about immigration. So they raise the bogey of H1-Bs once in a while.

It’s funny that you talk about liberal opposition to the H1B program (though I’m not entirely certain President Obama opposes the H1B program). Kucinich opposes legal H1B immigration, but he supports illegal immigration amnesty. According to leftist Democrats, the only way you can come to America is by swimming across the river, trekking through the desert, and shooting at the border patrol.

What exactly is a non market wage? The lowest bidder settles with the highest asker. It’s called supply and demand.

What I see is resentment and a victim attitude on behalf on those that have been laid off, are without work, or think they are underemployed. They want someone to blame, be it white people in management, Indians, Wall Street, rich Republicans, the Jews ...

I have no position on the limit for H1-Bs and I’m not advocating that we increase, or even keep it at the same level, right now. I also agree that those on H1-Bs who have been laid off should go home.

However, the tenor in the H1-B/immigration discussion is what strikes me.

It’s one thing to oppose immigration because immigrants are coming here illegally and are mooching off of our public services (the Bill O’Reilly types). It’s another thing to complain about foreigners taking your job because you’re just not that good at it but you need someone to blame for your lot in life (the Lou Dobbs types).

The Bill O’Reilly types make a good argument. The Lou Dobbs types, ironically, feed into the amnesty crowd by making it seem that illegal immigrants do a better job than lazy Americans.

Actually....in a true free market....if there was a real demand for Indian labor...they would be paid equal to or above what Americans make.

There are plenty of Americans willing to work...so the supply is there....more than meets the demand. The only reason the Indians are brought in is to reduce wages, non-market....the demand is for their low pay...not for their services

Dobbs understands this “free market” when it comes to labor..since there is no market demand for Indian labor....the supply of Americans is there. Of course, the low wage Indians mean that there is fewer $$$ for retail, services, government revenue (the last one forces tax increases on Americans)

The real racism is from the Economic Anti-Americans who think its great because “we can pay them dark skinned Indians less than Americans”. Coolie labor...21st Century style

American jobs for American. Stop the H1B mass migration and deport those laid-off who don't go back. Call your Congress-member and demand that H1B visas be eliminated.

In theory the H1B visa is awesome. We had an absolutely incredible engineer, he just knocked our socks off, who lived in Europe. We tried to bring him over(at well over $100k) but all the Indian companies had sucked up the visas for the *potential* to "insource" a bunch of $35k cube rats.

Getting rid of H1B is stupid, it kills our competitiveness and ability to attract top talent. However, we *must* fix the program to keep it from being exploited like it is today.

Something must be done to return Americas demographics back to what it was in the 50s.

Deport all varieties of immigrants suitably?

America's problems are not demographic. They're cultural. The route you're begging for is the surest way to lead to a Japan style stagnation and population implosion. Relatively well off middle class people don't breed, nor are they hungry.

America has been infected by a culture of laziness and greed. Part of it comes from Leftist weakness and whininess and part of it comes from "Greed is good" Reagonomics.

Both the left and right have lost their way in America. There have been attempts to come up with work arounds for current American sense of entitlement and cultural collapse(like the communitarians) but so far every decent solution has withered on the vine.

What exactly is a non market wage? The lowest bidder settles with the highest asker. Its called supply and demand.

Not in the case of H1B's. It's more like a form of indentured servitude. If you google a little bit you'll find everything you need.

Companies abuse the system like this:

They come up with a job description intentionally mangled so that no Americans can apply for the job(i.e. 5 years experience for a technology that has only existed for 3 years).

They advertise the position in the states and give some courtesy interviews, coming up with excuses not to hire an American.

Then they hire a guy from India/China who costs them >20k less than an equivalent American for the same job and they have complete control over the poor sap(Don't like working 80 hour weeks? Ooops then we can fire you and send your butt home, hope you like going back to $10,000 a year).

If we really cared about the H1B system we'd do two things:

First, we'd have some sort of independent metric for job postings(i.e. you need a Foo programmer? he should be able to do X,Y,Z. I'd imagine it'd be something similar to the way we certify regular engineers). You'd also need some form of independent metric of how many available engineers of that type you had available. That way you really could be sure that *if there were qualified Americans available* you could hire them.

Second, make the H1B not tied to employment status. If a foreign worker(now presumably better qualified than the current bunch) came over and doesn't like his job he should be able to quit and find another one(which presumably would be easy, a true H1B should be a star). Which would get rid of the indentured servitude aspect.

Of course employers would never go for it. They'd prefer cheap slaves that don't talk back even if they're less talented.

I have no problem if true talent is brought in from overseas.....but if it truly is “talent” they should be compensated like an American would be.

The sports world seems to have no problem with compensating foreign talent equal to what an American would make.....no sport would pay, say, Steve Nash less because he was a Canadian...or Yao Ming less because he was Chinese. They are paid based on their talent....not to undercut American players

I have no problem if true talent is brought in from overseas.....but if it truly is talent they should be compensated like an American would be.

The sports world seems to have no problem with compensating foreign talent equal to what an American would make.....no sport would pay, say, Steve Nash less because he was a Canadian...or Yao Ming less because he was Chinese. They are paid based on their talent....not to undercut American players

Exactly. The H1B program was created with admirable goals. Now it's being hideously exploited.

Indians working in America are paid an equal, if not higher, wage. If fact, Indians are the richest ethnic group per capita according to the Census.

(I’ll concede that outsourcing though is done at a much cheaper rate, but firms also get a lower quality work product usually.)

Everything comes down to hard work. I firmly believe anybody can make six figures, within a short period of time depending on their background, and anybody can become a millionaire, if they work hard enough. However, those that are worried about the competition more so than themselves are doomed for failure.

Thats true...the H1B is totally exploited. And, most of the H1B’s are used for non-skilled labor (which is against the law...but done anyway).

The H1B is really destructive because, not only Americans are undercut in wages, but, the lower paid Indians are not going to spend as much on housing, retail, and other services....losing money on those things kills local communities

Indians working in America are paid an equal, if not higher, wage. If fact, Indians are the richest ethnic group per capita according to the Census.

(Ill concede that outsourcing though is done at a much cheaper rate, but firms also get a lower quality work product usually.)

Everything comes down to hard work. I firmly believe anybody can make six figures, within a short period of time depending on their background, and anybody can become a millionaire, if they work hard enough. However, those that are worried about the competition more so than themselves are doomed for failure.

Your thinking is scarily muddled here. As an *ethnic group* Indians make more money per capita. In a specific *field*, IT, H1Bs are payed quite a bit less. In theory the H1B is supposed to work the way you think. In practice the majority of H1B's are indentured labor.

As for Indians....most are legal immigrants and US citizens....not H1Bs. Their high per capita income is because many are in the medical and hospitality field....most are in professional type of work and are paid comprable to Americans

Yes, I probably should not willy-nilly refer to H1Bs as all “Indians”...since many H1Bs are from all over the world. But the problem with the H1B is that it is used to undercut Americans....not to bring in real foreign talent

I’ll concede I’m not up to speed on the average salaries of each field in IT.

I was always under the impression, at least at the graduate MS level, that, for example, your MS Computer Engineering guy from India would make the same as your MS Computer Engineering guy from the States. Even the BS guys would at least break 50K, from my anecdotal information.

You make some fair points, but if we allowed unemployed H1-Bs to stay here, wouldnt they just put a drain on our system?

Why not? If we're going to bring over smart people to work here, they should be able to go on the dole just like everybody else. We can't have our cake and eat it too. H1B's(not superstars) are a lot less attractive when you have to pay them benefits like everyone else.

The minute you take away social services from a group like the H1B's you create a slave class that will necessarily be attractive to employers.

Ill concede Im not up to speed on the average salaries of each field in IT.

I was always under the impression, at least at the graduate MS level, that, for example, your MS Computer Engineering guy from India would make the same as your MS Computer Engineering guy from the States. Even the BS guys would at least break 50K, from my anecdotal information.

H1B's make from $12,500-$20,000 *less* than their similarly skilled American counterparts.

I’ll have to do some research on the H1B salary differential, and I guess I’ll concede in part that the H1B program is not truly free market. I think I understand the point that we have foreigners who view coming to America as sort of an in-kind contribution (in actuality it’s an in-kind contribution from the taxpayers, not the firm), and this distorts the labor markets.

Thanks for the relevant information in this discussion. We may have briefly scraped this topic, but it definitely has peaked my interest.

Ill have to do some research on the H1B salary differential, and I guess Ill concede in part that the H1B program is not truly free market. I think I understand the point that we have foreigners who view coming to America as sort of an in-kind contribution (in actuality its an in-kind contribution from the taxpayers, not the firm), and this distorts the labor markets.

Could you clarify what you mean by an "in-kind contribution"? I know what an in-kind contribution is, just not in this context.

H1B visa holders are supposed to leave the country if they get laid off and cannot find another job within 10 days.

H1B holders who are direct employees make as much as American programmers. The disparity in wages comes from Indians and Russians themselves. There are dozens of placement companies run by Indians and Russians who do the paperwork for visa and bring these programmers into the US as their employees. They are then placed as consultants in major companies that pay these middlemen MORE THAN the salary of a programmer.

Why "MORE THAN?" Because they get paid the consulting rate which is higher than the salary. The middlemen pay a salary of 45-50,000 per year and pocket the rest which is around 75,000 a year. This is how the average salary for H1Bs comes down. As far as companies like Intel or Microsoft are concerned, they're paying the full rate.

I had this very discussion with my husband last night. Although I am more conservative than he is, we are on opposite sides of the H1-B or outsourcing issue.

He says that it's a free market demand and that companies should be free to hire the cheapest labor that they can, regardless of the quality or affect on the American worker. In theory, I agree with him. You can't legislate who companies can hire (we'd be Dems :-)) but the H1-B/outsourcing fiasco really bothers me as I've seen it up close and personal - and it is all about wages and they work those people to death (and most of them aren't that great at what they do). I believe the majority of H1-B people work for companies like WiPro, Infosys, etc. American companies pay the 'contractor company' an agreed on bid and the contractor company provides the H1-B people. These H1-B's sign on with WiPro or Infosys for a period of time and they are not free to quit and move on if working conditions are awful.

I just don't know what the answer is, but I do know in the world of technology, there are a lot of hard working and smart Americans out of work having been replaced by foreing workers. You can't legislate for 'the greater good' or 'ethical' behaviour though.

Agree- Especially if your company requires unique job skills that cannot be found. But the Indians and other Asians come over here- and then for all practical purposes it takes the form of a permanent visa and then they go through the whole sham of the “green cards proces” and before long we have unlimited chain migration. There is a veritable cottage industry of immigration lawyers and they have become a very powerful lobbying group as well

I mean that the benefits that h1-b holders get from living in America (better roads, better hospitals, better schools for children etc.) are from the government (taxpayers). However, since the employers are sponsoring the h1-b holders, they are the ones essentially offering these benefits to the employee and they have the ability, via stripping the h1-b holder of his work authorization, to take these benefits away.

Agree- Especially if your company requires unique job skills that cannot be found. But the Indians and other Asians come over here- and then for all practical purposes it takes the form of a permanent visa and then they go through the whole sham of the green cards proces and before long we have unlimited chain migration. There is a veritable cottage industry of immigration lawyers and they have become a very powerful lobbying group as well

I don't give a hoot about "chain migration" if it's by smart people. America needs more smart and civilized folks and, when done right, H1B's are smart and civilized.

I mean that the benefits that h1-b holders get from living in America (better roads, better hospitals, better schools for children etc.) are from the government (taxpayers). However, since the employers are sponsoring the h1-b holders, they are the ones essentially offering these benefits to the employee and they have the ability, via stripping the h1-b holder of his work authorization, to take these benefits away.

I hope Im being a bit more clear.

I don't think so. H1B's may enjoy better bennies in the states but that's not the key. The key is wages. Even a $35k a year H1B from a developing country is making 3+ times what he'd be making at home.

Why "MORE THAN?" Because they get paid the consulting rate which is higher than the salary. The middlemen pay a salary of 45-50,000 per year and pocket the rest which is around 75,000 a year. This is how the average salary for H1Bs comes down. As far as companies like Intel or Microsoft are concerned, they're paying the full rate.

That is nowhere near the full rate. You're ignoring costs other than salary. Once you add bennies and all the other costs for an equivalent employee you're *far* cheaper than the equivalent American. Even direct employees make $13,000 less than the comparable American.

That’s the notion of the free market then. Labor flows to where capital is (immigration) and capital flows to where labor is (outsourcing).

I wonder if these restrictions on H1Bs actually create more problems then they solve. If there were only say 1000 slots for H1Bs and I’m from India, I’d accept a very low salary in America. If there were an unlimited amount of slots, I’d probably hold out until I got paid the full salary.

Thats the notion of the free market then. Labor flows to where capital is (immigration) and capital flows to where labor is (outsourcing).

I wonder if these restrictions on H1Bs actually create more problems then they solve. If there were only say 1000 slots for H1Bs and Im from India, Id accept a very low salary in America. If there were an unlimited amount of slots, Id probably hold out until I got paid the full salary.

No. What they should do is give them a green card, full bennies and what the market will bear. The minute the H1B's have the same rights as an American they'll cease to be cheap. They can always take their talents to another job.

The problem right now is that the market *is not* free. They're not free to take their labor elsewhere. If they quit their job they have to be out of the country in 10 days.

That is nowhere near the full rate. You're ignoring costs other than salary.

I was not ignoring the other benefits. Those benefits are usually paid by the middleman. They pocket ~75K per year after footing the bill for the benefits. As for direct employees, I simply have to disagree with you. The salaries are similar for H1B workers and others. Otherwise the Chinese and Indians will gang up and sue for discrimination based on race and national origin.

I was not ignoring the other benefits. Those benefits are usually paid by the middleman. They pocket ~75K per year after footing the bill for the benefits. As for direct employees, I simply have to disagree with you. The salaries are similar for H1B workers and others. Otherwise the Chinese and Indians will gang up and sue for discrimination based on race and national origin.

No, no and no. You have no idea what you're talking about. Do some preliminary research on google and get back to me.

Unfortunately, its the chain migration of those with clashing cultures, religions, and rituals that have led to the ruination of England and soon the US!

People said the same thing about the Germans before the civil war. The Italians and Irish until WWII and various other ethnic groups since. America is a country made *stronger* by "chain migration". *As long as those migrating are the right people*. H1B's will never bee the problem.

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