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Comment

Hi, OID, thanks, I'm fine, hope you're well too. Yupp, it is like that. But I think this pattern is used for a lot of boxes these days, alas.

Thank you Alex, I'm doing well.

With the kind of money we pay for these things, you'd think these companies would put more effort into making these box sets more durable and lasting by actually either having the numbers embossed or printed on the box set or at least a sticker that will not easily fall off.

"Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath""If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

Comment

With the kind of money we pay for these things, you'd think these companies would put more effort into making these box sets more durable and lasting by actually either having the numbers embossed or printed on the box set or at least a sticker that will not easily fall off.

Yup , that's probably the most annoying thing on the whole set , there is an artwork underneath printed on the set though , but over all I really like the box set main artwork by Shepard Fairey , looks really neat and its embossed with very good quality !

Comment

Yup , that's probably the most annoying thing on the whole set , there is an artwork underneath printed on the set though , but over all I really like the box set main artwork by Shepard Fairey , looks really neat and its embossed with very good quality !

Hi IRON-MaN, hope your well, where would the artwork be, you say under the box on the outside printed on the numbered sheet or printed on the box itself?

"Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath""If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

Comment

I highly recommend this brief video to understand why this is rarely viewed as anything but a negative by many. I believe this is part of why the first Black Sabbath album recorded nearly 50 years ago will be widely regarded as a stone classic another fifty years from now, whereas a great album like 13 will be an also-ran. It's beyond the music. It's about dynamics and punch. When everything is loud, drums take the biggest hit.

"It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
-WTB

Comment

I highly recommend this brief video to understand why this is rarely viewed as anything but a negative by many. I believe this is part of why the first Black Sabbath album recorded nearly 50 years ago will be widely regarded as a stone classic another fifty years from now, whereas a great album like 13 will be an also-ran. It's beyond the music. It's about dynamics and punch. When everything is loud, drums take the biggest hit.

Jeff I'm fully aware of Loudness War from way back , apparently you haven't read much into my post , those MQA files are indeed louder and YET they maintain all the punch and dynamics you could possibly think of , I don't think people will get the whole picture till they have a listen themselves , those MQA files are very rich in dynamics you feel you're almost present in the studios while the album was being played and recorded , all the layers and instruments are sound clear and quite full and saturated , its incredible specially on albums like Vol.4 , SBS and Sabotage.

With likes of the '13' and 'Death Magnetic', that's a different story and indeed the sound was bricked and dynamics crushed in order to make those records much louder (if you listen to the song versions of those Sabbath songs on those studio videos of '13' before the final mastering you will notice the huge difference , specially as you've mentioned , with Brad's drums in particular).

Comment

Hi IRON-MaN, hope your well, where would the artwork be, you say under the box on the outside printed on the numbered sheet or printed on the box itself?

Hi OzzyIsDio , all good here thank you , there is separate artwork inside the box set depending on the edition you buy , some comes without those artwork and to be honest , that's my least favorite from the box bundle , you won't miss much if you don't get the one with the exclusive artwork (they all come in the same price , but the editions with those artworks are more limited) , there is similar artwork embedded on the backside of the box covered with that printed sheet containing all the box detailed features and box number (its not printed on the box itself).

Comment

Hi OzzyIsDio , all good here thank you , there is separate artwork inside the box set depending on the edition you buy , some comes without those artwork and to be honest , that's my least favorite from the box bundle , you won't miss much if you don't get the one with the exclusive artwork (they all come in the same price , but the editions with those artworks are more limited) , there is similar artwork embedded on the backside of the box covered with that printed sheet containing all the box detailed features and box number (its not printed on the box itself).

Thank you IRON-MaN.

"Without Black Sabbath there never would have been an Ozzy, and without Ozzy there never would have been a Black Sabbath""If there ever was a band whose voice is so significant and distinct, that band is Black Sabbath and the voice is Ozzy Osbourne"
________________________________________OzzyIsDio_ (YoY)

Comment

"The first decent remasters (through Essential / Castle, a company that later became the Sanctuary that was subsequently absorbed by Universal) are more than adequate for most purposes. But to compound the problem, all subsequent reissues remastered previous remasters.

At the launch for this event the remastering for this release was explained, and if you’ve ever watched Fake Or Fortune on TV you’ll understand the work involved with tracing the masters back to the original recordings (or as close to as possible, and I’m not sure how helpful Sharon Osborne was). That was a job in itself, and listening to the music here, it was well worth it."

I'm starting to loose track of how many remasters/transfers there are! Can someone clarify the different versions? Has there been a remaster since the 2007 Sanctuary releases? I remember seeing some releases in 2012 and the new Greatest Hits package since the recent sale of the label and I was thinking they have been using the same source, but now I'm wondering. Is this yet another version or are they talking about the work that was done 10 years ago?

There's always the important difference between European and American master tapes and, accordingly, remasters. The Sanctuary 2009 remasters were from European tapes, the Warner 2012 remasters (released on LP either in 2012 or 2014, not sure, also on hi-res official download sites in 2014, and finally on redbook in 2016) from US tapes. Thus, for example, the multi-channel DVD of the Paranoid Quad mix that was included in the Sanctuary Deluxe 2009 release of Paranoid was actually ripped from Quad-LP - apparently they didn't have the original master tapes. In contrast, the 2016 stereo mixdown of the Paranoid Quad mix that was included in the Warner 2016 4xCD Super Deluxe Edition of Paranoid sounds MUCH better and is definitely sourced from master tape - so the only master tapes of the Quad mix seem to be located in the US, not in Europe. Another and more well-known example: Originally the UK release of the first album included Evil Woman and no Wicked World, the US release had WW instead and no EW.

Now, the "Ten Year War" box set is a European release, so it is no big surprise that Joe writes here <https://www.black-sabbath.com/2017/06/the-ten-year-war-box-set/> that "The mastering work here is the same done for the 2009 Universal Deluxe Edition series by Andy Pearce."

There is one more series of releases, though not exactly remasters, that is definitely worth mentioning: the 2012 Japanese SHM-SACD releases of the first album, Paranoid, MOR, Vol4, SBS and H&H. Most of them are said to be sourced from flat transfers (!) of original UK master tapes, and those sound just great - better than any remasters (not because they are on SACD, but because they simply use the best mastering), namely the first album, MOR, Vol4 and SBS. If I remember correctly, the SACD releases of Paranoid and H&H somehow had a different story from the others and anyway sounded not as good. Obviously, many of us don't have the equipment to listen to SACDs, but if you can get good redbook CDR copies of the 4 good ones, I definitely recommend to do that.

Of the 2016 Warner CDs, Paranoid Super Deluxe is a must have: best available mastering of Paranoid in digital on disc1, best available official digital copy of the Quad mix (regrettably downmixed to stereo, but still great-sounding) in disc2, and finally the fantastic SBD recordings of Montreux and Brussels 1970 on disc 3 and 4. The 2016 release of the first album has the best digital version of "Wicked World", for the other songs the SACD is better (though there is a tape problem with Evil Woman if I remember correctly, maybe you would have to take that song from the old 1986 Castle CD). For MOR, Vol4 and SBS, the SACDs are the best option. I haven't done any closer comparisons for Sabotage, TE and NSD, but many people with good ears claim that there is still no such thing as a satisfying digital release of these 3 albums.

Comment

You must be kidding ! Those remasters are ahead a shoulder above any other remasters I own (crisp sound with lots of dynamics and you can literally hear a lot of details that weren't that audible on earlier versions !) , fingers crossed those new ones on 'Ten Years War' box set would be even better !

Have you had the chance to compare them to the European 2009 Sanctuary remasters? According to Joe S., they should have the same mastering.

Comment

Jeff I'm fully aware of Loudness War from way back , apparently you haven't read much into my post , those MQA files are indeed louder and YET they maintain all the punch and dynamics you could possibly think of , I don't think people will get the whole picture till they have a listen themselves , those MQA files are very rich in dynamics you feel you're almost present in the studios while the album was being played and recorded , all the layers and instruments are sound clear and quite full and saturated , its incredible specially on albums like Vol.4 , SBS and Sabotage.

With likes of the '13' and 'Death Magnetic', that's a different story and indeed the sound was bricked and dynamics crushed in order to make those records much louder (if you listen to the song versions of those Sabbath songs on those studio videos of '13' before the final mastering you will notice the huge difference , specially as you've mentioned , with Brad's drums in particular).

I only meant to illustrate a point. Sorry if that made it appear that I missed the rest of what you had to say.

I'm still waiting on my box to arrive but hopefully this week.

In general terms, however, I typically find that some of the comments you're making would be indicative of compression. There are boatloads of remasters (and now remixes) sold every day with buyers commending them for increased "detail" or "clarity." IMO, this is part of how the industry has recycled successful catalogs as the lack of physical sales has transpired. They get people to buy and rebuy and re-rebuy ...

If Alex has lined these up it should be provable whether they are just the 2012 HD Tracks downloads. Even if they were tweaked a little or MQA results in a slightly varied sound, it sounds like the source is the same. If you have found the newest versions beneficial to your ears, I'm sure nobody would dispute that because that's your own taste and right to enjoy music as you please, but I suspect that it is important information for some folks.

Just to ramble a bit on this and not really in relation to anything anybody has said in this thread ...

I personally find there is a lot more to a mix than clarity. I happened to listen to the 2011 Rhino Vinyl reissue of Vol. 4 last night. I'm sure many would find parts of it "muddy" or not "clear" enough, but I find it to be what is surely a truer representation of the master tapes. And that master mix at that time was surely obsessed over no matter how much drug use was rampant. Perhaps even more so because of that. Without the treble boosting so common on many CD reissues of Vol. 4, the album is almost infinitely "crankable." It never burns your ear drums. The sound just washes over you and is alive at every step. It begs to be turned up instead of down.

Anyway ... I've heard the 2012 masters, and I was not happy with them for my taste. For all the added clarity, they lacked way too much warmth. This is what happens when treble is pushed too far, IMO.

Andy Pearce is a sensational engineer whom I highly respect, but I suspect when it comes to a catalog like Sabbath's that he is "asked" to push things in a certain way. I know from reading some of this thoughts around 2009 that he had done a lot of comparisons and felt that many Sabbath releases on CD had too much top end boosting. He didn't want to do that and his work reflected that in most cases. His version of Vol. 4 was superb in 2009. Same with SBS and Sabotage. And probably MOST notably H&H, which finally returned to the amazing sound it had on vinyl and all the overly shrill top end was not added.

But for the 2012 reissues, I think it's apparent that he was given different guidelines. Because I have listened to them and based upon what I know of his work and his engineering approach, they do not sound like the type of sound he would come up with. Obviously for you this worked out well, and that's all that matters for your ears. Besides, you can never please everyone. I guess I just think people should be aware that often they are sort of being misled in terms of what they are rebuying or in terms of technology advancing. Digital "tricks" are often used to get people to say; "Hey, I don't remember that bass note being quite that clear before ..."; and then the end user feels that purchasing a product for which he had already paid as justified. And thus the machine turns.

But hey, I'm not knocking ANYBODY for buying Sabbath albums again and again! I just think sometimes these companies aren't transparent, and for some people this stuff is a difficult decision due to financial implications it may have for them. As such, it should be clearly stated that this new box is NOT cut directly from the master tapes. Instead, if you read the hype, it will dance around that reality. Probably because Sabbath will allow all analogue remastering five years from now. And of course I'll be there to rebuy.

Comment

Have you had the chance to compare them to the European 2009 Sanctuary remasters? According to Joe S., they should have the same mastering.

They are definitely not that mastering from what I've seen. Most are saying they are sourced from the 2012 masterings, which were different. Some feel Paranoid in 2012 was vastly improved (the 2009 was proved to still be sourced from the old '96 mastering!), and also TE and NSD were felt to be better (Andy Pearce claims the 2009s of TE and NSD were NOT how they left his studio). From what I've seen, the rest were sometimes felt to be a step down from the 2009s, but this was not exclusive by any means. Many liked the 2012s.

The 2012s are still in print and available everywhere. It sounds like this box will be sourced from same.

"It is not opinion that Ozzy peaked on Sabotage, it is a measurable fact."
-WTB

Comment

They are definitely not that mastering from what I've seen. Most are saying they are sourced from the 2012 masterings, which were different. Some feel Paranoid in 2012 was vastly improved (the 2009 was proved to still be sourced from the old '96 mastering!), and also TE and NSD were felt to be better (Andy Pearce claims the 2009s of TE and NSD were NOT how they left his studio). From what I've seen, the rest were sometimes felt to be a step down from the 2009s, but this was not exclusive by any means. Many liked the 2012s.

The 2012s are still in print and available everywhere. It sounds like this box will be sourced from same.

Thanks Jeff! Hm, now I am confused. Does this mean that my claims above regarding European vs. US tapes/releases are obsolete or misguided? Unlike what I believed, the 2012 vinyl reproductions seem to have been European indeed: https://www.discogs.com/Black-Sabbat...elease/4136914
So it makes sense now that they were probably used for the Ten Year War. BUT how come they were also used for the Warner/Rhino 2016 CDF releases? That's exactly the kind of thing that I thought does usually NOT happen... Also, many people with trained ears agreed that the 2012 remasters used entirely different tape sources than the 2009 ones. How is that possible if both seem to be sourced from European tapes owned by Sanctuary/Universal? Damn, I thought I had finally understood that stuff more or less.

As for the Paranoid 2012 remaster, I do agree there's too much treble on it, but I still feel that the tape source they used and its mastering is superior over other versions. But there is definitely room for further improvement if, at some point, they do a better remastering based on the same tape source.

Comment

I only meant to illustrate a point. Sorry if that made it appear that I missed the rest of what you had to say.

I'm still waiting on my box to arrive but hopefully this week.

In general terms, however, I typically find that some of the comments you're making would be indicative of compression. There are boatloads of remasters (and now remixes) sold every day with buyers commending them for increased "detail" or "clarity." IMO, this is part of how the industry has recycled successful catalogs as the lack of physical sales has transpired. They get people to buy and rebuy and re-rebuy ...

If Alex has lined these up it should be provable whether they are just the 2012 HD Tracks downloads. Even if they were tweaked a little or MQA results in a slightly varied sound, it sounds like the source is the same. If you have found the newest versions beneficial to your ears, I'm sure nobody would dispute that because that's your own taste and right to enjoy music as you please, but I suspect that it is important information for some folks.

Just to ramble a bit on this and not really in relation to anything anybody has said in this thread ...

I personally find there is a lot more to a mix than clarity. I happened to listen to the 2011 Rhino Vinyl reissue of Vol. 4 last night. I'm sure many would find parts of it "muddy" or not "clear" enough, but I find it to be what is surely a truer representation of the master tapes. And that master mix at that time was surely obsessed over no matter how much drug use was rampant. Perhaps even more so because of that. Without the treble boosting so common on many CD reissues of Vol. 4, the album is almost infinitely "crankable." It never burns your ear drums. The sound just washes over you and is alive at every step. It begs to be turned up instead of down.

Anyway ... I've heard the 2012 masters, and I was not happy with them for my taste. For all the added clarity, they lacked way too much warmth. This is what happens when treble is pushed too far, IMO.

Andy Pearce is a sensational engineer whom I highly respect, but I suspect when it comes to a catalog like Sabbath's that he is "asked" to push things in a certain way. I know from reading some of this thoughts around 2009 that he had done a lot of comparisons and felt that many Sabbath releases on CD had too much top end boosting. He didn't want to do that and his work reflected that in most cases. His version of Vol. 4 was superb in 2009. Same with SBS and Sabotage. And probably MOST notably H&H, which finally returned to the amazing sound it had on vinyl and all the overly shrill top end was not added.

But for the 2012 reissues, I think it's apparent that he was given different guidelines. Because I have listened to them and based upon what I know of his work and his engineering approach, they do not sound like the type of sound he would come up with. Obviously for you this worked out well, and that's all that matters for your ears. Besides, you can never please everyone. I guess I just think people should be aware that often they are sort of being misled in terms of what they are rebuying or in terms of technology advancing. Digital "tricks" are often used to get people to say; "Hey, I don't remember that bass note being quite that clear before ..."; and then the end user feels that purchasing a product for which he had already paid as justified. And thus the machine turns.

But hey, I'm not knocking ANYBODY for buying Sabbath albums again and again! I just think sometimes these companies aren't transparent, and for some people this stuff is a difficult decision due to financial implications it may have for them. As such, it should be clearly stated that this new box is NOT cut directly from the master tapes. Instead, if you read the hype, it will dance around that reality. Probably because Sabbath will allow all analogue remastering five years from now. And of course I'll be there to rebuy.

They're obviously compressed but the whole trick is how they maintained all the punch and dynamics while doing so (and if I may say , even enhanced them) , I think many here seem to bring the point of whether they used the same sources on previous remasters or not ! Might be the case for sure , but how manage to transfer that using a certain technology makes a whole difference too ! Also those MQA are recommended to be played using certain software and hardware ( well at least to get the full experience ). Also remember that MQA stands for Master Quality Authenticated , meaning that they have been viewed and authenticated by the band themselves , from what I read , this project took 2 years in the making tracking , comparing and cleaning original tapes to one another in order to get the most perfect digital versions of those albums to date !

Comment

Now, the "Ten Year War" box set is a European release, so it is no big surprise that Joe writes here <https://www.black-sabbath.com/2017/06/the-ten-year-war-box-set/> that "The mastering work here is the same done for the 2009 Universal Deluxe Edition series by Andy Pearce."

I'm not sure about Universal, but they surely as hell look and sound different in comparison with Sanctuary deluxes.