Matzav Shmooze: Are We Creating Two Different Products?

As someone who has been a shadchan for many years I think there is a big issue that is not even being addressed when it comes to boy and girls in the parsha.

We, boruch Hashem, have established very strong schools systems that help us raise our children to be frum Yidden. I send my children to our Mosdos and am very happy with results of the efforts from our hardworking mechanchim.

The issue, however, is that our Mosdos are not in sync. We have created two completely independent systems – the Bais Yaakov and the yeshivos – which are churning out two very different products. Our boys and girls are spending their formative years developing she’ifos, hashkafos, and other ideas that are very different from one another. And when they reach a marriageable age they quickly find that this is a real roadblock in finding a compatible spouse.

This is not a case of people being picky. As a shadchan I can tell you that these people are right; their reluctance to change their standards is not a matter of blown up egos, it’s usually coming from a place of knowing what type of life they want to live and realizing what that requires in a spouse.

And as a parent I can see how my own children paths are diverging from each other. As much as we try to instill are own values we have to admit that a big chunk of our children’s growth comes from the many hours they spend in class or the Bais Medrash.

To be clear, I am not saying this is the sole problem in shidduchim and I’m not here to argue about statistics, pictures or other possible factors.

But I can say pretty definitively, and I think others who dabble in shidduchim would agree, that a majority of Yeshiva boys are looking for a minority of Bais Yaakov girls and vice versa.

I believe that collectively we need to take a step back and look at our schools and yeshivos and try to figure out where they’ve diverged and take the necessary steps to realign them. But I’m just a shadchan. The people who are best equipped for this job are the principals and Rosh Yeshivas, who are either setting different goals for their students or whose methods of being mechanech are simply being being met with totally different results.

28 COMMENTS

Shkoyach! That was very informative! Not! What are the diverging hashkafos? Girls are taught that their only to’eles in this world is to support a husband in learning and boys are taught that their only to’eles is to learn. Perfect shidduch in my book.

Can you please explain yourself? From what I see, boys are taught that the ultimate she’ifah is to sit and learn, and girls are taught that the ultimate she’ifah is to support a husband who is – sitting and learning. That looks pretty similar to me.

I’m just trying to understand the point of the “Shadchan”.
You make a general charge:
“that our Mosdos are not in sync. We have created two completely independent systems – the Bais Yaakov and the yeshivos – which are churning out two very different products.”
I’m willing to hear more, but you give no examples to illustrate this assertion.
Do you care to elaborate?

No, I disagree. The children get the best chinuch from the home observing their Parents and older siblings. It seems like you did a lousy job. Just because it didn’t work for your kids, it doesn’t mean we have to change the whole system.
What are you suggesting? Have co-ed Yeshivo’s?
I seriously doubt you’re a shaddchan. You just have an ax to grind and Matzav was guillibe enough to let your poison thru.

Following the train of thought of this author, we should find the majority of boys “leftover”, geting onlder adn staying single, because only the minority of boys should get married to the “matching” minority of girls.

We should be left with the majority of boys who are looking for that no longer available girls.. and unable to match up with the remaning majority of girls

Dear Dedicated Shadchan

Can you please tell us where all those boys are since according to your presentation it sounds like you have equal number of older girls and older boys…who simply aren’t matches for each other, as opposed to what other shadchnaim find that is loads of names of older single girls and only a handful of older single guys…

However , It is not clear tome in what way the boys and girls are on divergent paths

It seems to me that there are two types of boys – the learners and the ones who feel the need to go to work (feeling they are not cut out for full time learning)
same thing for girls -there are ones that are looking for full time learners and ones who are looking for boys who will work

From the headline, I thought this article was about Uncle Moishy. But seriously, the problem may be that some people may be more self-centered these days. Also, a bucher may be taught that the internet , for example, while girls may not.

It’s important to remember that it isn’t always about the “product”. Good solid B’nei Torah aren’t just produced at will by mosdos. It clearly takes much more effort and siyata dishmaya to be a good boy than to be a good girl. Not that a girl today has it easier than 20 – 30 years ago, but a boy is even harder. Fact.

There is clearly a problem with the article. I am just an amateur and one opinion bit the article seems to have some issues and I think that we have to have an overhaul of all writers who write to Jewish publications to avoid any divergence in the future.

When did it become “the norm” for the husband to sit and learn while ignoring the responsobilities he agreed to in the kesuba of working and supporting his family? It used to be the norm that the man worked while the woman stayed at home taking care of the family. For all those who think that it is yaharog v’al yaavor to work, isnt it a breach of tznius for women to be out in the workplace every day?
If this is what the wife wants and agrees to (working as well as being mostly responsible for what goes on at home) before they get married without being coerced then great. However, I could be wrong, but I feel like many women feel overly burdened and stressed from all the responsobilities that fall upon them while their husbands are learning all day. I am totally for men learning all day, but as long as his wife is 100% alright with it and is not crumbling from the pressure.

what language is this article written in? I am college educated and hold a MS in Language arts. I’m having Trouble understanding this editorial. I have re-read it several times and have not figured out what the writer is trying to convey. The writer might have some ideas in his mind but didn’t put the words down in print. When reading an editorial, one cannot read the writers mind and interpret his thoughts. This paper is rubbish.

what she may have meant by discrepency is; let me explain briefly ; having sheifos is very diff from really living them.
a girls resume only needs to show sheifus because a girls BIG challenge is AFTER she gets married juggling the many responsibilities & priorities . whereas what the girls want in a bochurs shidduch resume is to see the bochur actually living his sheifos and the midos, being cute, polished , mannered… bekitzur an adam hashalem at age 22. what do u think?

one more point; B”H bnos yisroel are metzunim in tefillah, many seminary girls daven minchah on a regular day like its rosh hahsanah , much of it is bakashah for a zivug . of course who else should they ask for help
my question is after so much davening, crying at the kosel.., kupas hair… and having simcha leiner playing endlessly on the computer.. ” el hannar hazeh hispallalti….. when she finally finds her choson at whatever price , what bochur can possibly live up to these expectations?

I agree with all the above posts that it seems like two thirds of the article is missing. The first third is stating that there’s a problem, the middle third should be a detailed description of the problem and the last third should be proposed solutions. The article in the form it was posted is enigmatic and totally not helpful.
I agree with MDshweks that it’s a lot harder to be a ‘top’ learning boy than to be a good, solid high-she’ifos ‘top’ girl. Therefore ‘top’ boys have a long list of suggestions and many good girls are waiting for that boy who’s a masmid, comes to minyan on time, has a seder in bein hazmanim, etc. while she sleeps late, crams for tests, but learns shmiras halashon, a daily mussar sefer, davens 3 tefillos a day (possibly close to chatzos, shkiya and 1am) and lives it up on vacation (perhaps letting go of her shmiras halashon and mussar ‘sedarim’). They really are good girls – tzniusdik, want to support a husband in learning, do lots of chessed, daven with kavana and have a real relationships with the RBSH”O, etc. but they don’t have to have the same level of discipline and conquer yetzarim to the degree that boys must in order to be considered ‘tops’ (except perhaps in the area of tznius – perhaps that’s one of the problems the poster was referring to). May every Jewish yingel and maidel find his/her richtige zivug bimheira.

The boys are being educated to Shoklen= lernen all day, the girls are educated to appreciate the Shokling BUT they also learn a lot of other things in order to have a job that will earn a living for the family. And that education leads to that girls see most of the Yeshiva boys as ignorant about things the girls have found interesting at a workplace and in the surrounding world. The boys are supposed to be intrested in the small pinteleche that the girls have no idea of. So what is the common ground, what is the couple supposed to speak about with each other at the dinner table?

I’m also curious to hear what this shadchan has in mind. My guess is that many girls are idealistic, spiritual and frum while the majority of boys are less inclined to look for a spiritual and idealistic type of girl. Many boys want a more ‘with it’ type of girl even though they might be bnei torah themselves. Am I correct?

I believe that there are far more Bais Yaakov girls looking for full time serious Torasan Umnasan yeshivaleit of the very top tier than there are bochurim at that level. There are loads of Yeshiva boys looking for kollel and support. But those from top tier programs, who aren’t taking coffee breaks and smoking on the back staircase, and want out in 3-5, who are serious lomdim, and who are striving to grow in Torah and Yiras Shomayim, are not nearly as easy to find.
Not sure if that’s what A Dedicated Shadchan is referring to, but it is a phenomenon that I’ve seen a lot in today’s market.

i have no idea what the author is talking about
however its time someone with guts get up publicly and says that the system stinks
all the hard work etc falls on the girl
she has to get up early travel to a respectable job in nyc while hubby drives to kollel down route 9
then wife comes home after a hectic day and has to cook
do housekeeping etc
while the spanish shiktza is bringing up the kids

this makes no sense and is it any wonder that so many kids ore OTD
the girls are all taught to want learning boys together with the bugaboo new leased car
and the high heeled shoes that are painted red on the bottom!
what a life

Exactly. The words here are purposefully vague, ha meivin yavin. There is indeed a reason why there are no boys “left over.” Where are all the “good boys”? This is an important issue with implications that resonate far beyond shidduchim. It is the issue facing our post-post war, Baruch-Hashem-we-are-thriving-but-now-we-have-new-challenges-generation. A letter to the editor in the Yated brought his up as well. It’s not just about dating ages, it’s about something much greater and more challenging. I hope the conversation will begin soon.

the author writes “majority of Yeshiva boys are looking for a minority of Bais Yaakov girls and vice versa.” Of course! Each person is looking for ONE TZUGEPASTE SHIDDUCH to get married to a raise a Jewish home! ONLY ONE!! What nonsense are you writing about a majority looking for a minority?