Single and Double SiniwaliPanantukan/Wing Chun/Jun Fan empty hand drillsDefense against the 5 basic striking angles (stick and knife)Heaven 6 - yes, we have six (hi, lo, mid and hi-lo-hi)Flow drills of all kindsSome game where you have a knife in one hand, your opponent has one in his and you've both got each other's wrists. The idea is to break free or cleverly get the knife into their vitals.

This isn't a specific list of drills, however I'd like to explain our 5 stage process of how we teach people stick fighting. Here's how we do it (and this has ZERO to do with "styles"):

1. Put stick in beginners hand and go over the basics of stroking from the forehand and backhand positions, straight in, etc (this would normally include the 9 basic angles).

2. Show them basic defense (evasion, evasion with hand hit, evasion with head hit, blocking and crashing)

3. Thai pad drills with sticks (swinging out at them and letting them return fire into the "shields"

4. Progressive resistance drills and sparring (stick vs. stick) using the basic strikes and the basic defenses as well as the progressive use of equipment (starting with hockey glove and elbow pads, then knee pads, the helmets, etc).

5. All out sparring with soft sticks (all ranges, including the ground), then with rattan sticks.

Just out of curiosity, do you guys go all out with the rattan sticks? Is it like a Dog Brothers kind of thing where people get really messed up, or is it soft sparring or what? Do you use hockey gloves/fencing masks always, or just in the beginning? The reason I ask is I might start teaching a handful of people Kali and I want them to progress without getting scared off. It's hard to figure out how much is too much.thanks

Quote:Just out of curiosity, do you guys go all out with the rattan sticks? Is it like a Dog Brothers kind of thing where people get really messed up, or is it soft sparring or what? Do you use hockey gloves/fencing masks always, or just in the beginning? The reason I ask is I might start teaching a handful of people Kali and I want them to progress without getting scared off. It's hard to figure out how much is too much.thanks

You gotta ALWAYS be sane about things. What the Dog Brothers do isn’t for everyone. I mean, I personally don’t believe you need to go quite that far in order to learn something about yourself and develop the ability to fight.

Take vale tudo for example. There is no better way of learning about yourself than by doing vale tudo. No one gets seriously hurt because of the jiu-jitsu aspect and the ground fighting. It isn’t like boxing where it’s “forced brain damage” in other words (where the very rules force you to stand and trade, taking punches to the head).

As I mentioned in my post, we use PROGRESSIVE RESISTANCE in all things (not just stick fighting, but in MMA/Vale Tudo as well). What this means for stick fighting is, you start with the easy stuff, using light rattan and not swinging for the fences. Allow people to become accustomed to having a stick swung at them while working their defense. You can use focus pads for targets during this phase.

Then you put on hockey gloves and practice hand sparring only. That is another progression of resistance. Then have them wear kali helmets and hockey gloves, adding another level of resistance. You can use soft sticks during this phase, or light rattan.

Add some good knee pads and allow targets to the hand, head and knee (again using soft sticks or light rattan). This is good for experience and is a gradual progression, as always. Once you have people adjusted to having sticks swung at them (using good protection), this will go a long way toward developing their confidence and technique.

THEN, add crashing (roof blocks, etc) and work the clinch using punyos, knee strikes, elbows, takedowns, etc. Then allow them to continue on the ground, working for the fang choke for example or, some other submission.

The key is to make it a gradual process that doesn’t outpace a person’s skill or readiness level. Always use progressive resistance.

It’s a process of addition then subtraction. What I mean is, over time in training as students become more comfortable with the process, you progressively add protective equipment and intensity to the sparring and drilling. Then as they become even more comfortable, begin to progressively and gradually take the protective equipment AWAY until it’s as minimal as people are comfortable fighting with.

That’s a general outline that has worked for me and others (JKDU and the SBG to name a few).

Sounds like an excellent process to me. So far, I have only seen it done two ways here in chicago - the way my Kali group does it consists of 45 min. of flow drills, going from the 1-5 angles at full power (not hitting eachother), takedowns, strips, knife work, grappling what have you. Then there's about half an hour of sparring - fencing helmets, gloves (usually field hockey, not ice) and rubber sticks. During sparring we hit as hard as we can. No one seems to get more than a few bruises, welts and goose eggs.

The other way is the way I've seen the few remaining schools teach. Only advanced students go full bore with no padding and rattan sticks, but many of the level tests involve blocking a series of lighting fast strikes from the master. I've known a few filipino guys who have received some very ugly injuries from these tests. Again, no pads or safety gear.

Although I would like to build enough confidence to fight at that level, I find their process a bit unnerving. I much prefer what you just illustrated, especially from a teaching perspective.

Although I would like to build enough confidence to fight at that level, I find their process a bit unnerving. I much prefer what you just illustrated, especially from a teaching perspective.

Thank you, very much!

Anytime!

The method came out of Burton Richardson’s philosophy. He as you may know, was/is a member of the Dog Brothers. He has “been there and done that” and, lived to tell the tale. He believes in gradually bringing people up to speed and allowing them to slowly become acclimated to greater pressures and intensity - never beyond what they are capable of. He does that with everything, including the empty hand stuff which is ALL geared around fighting. It’s the method that I have used since I started teaching and the results are phenomenal in terms of skill development as well as the students ability to handle real fight “pressure”.

It often isn’t the lack of physical skill that is the main reason why many martial artists have problems in real fights. It’s the simple fact that they have not been truly acclimated to the PRESSURE that exists within real fights. Using these methods allows a person to slowly become accustomed to this pressure with graduated intensity and resistance. Again, this is true of both stick fighting and empty hand.

Isn’t it interesting that we in the stick fighting community (and it’s been a while since I have done any) believe that to truly reach our highest levels, we must step into the arena and actually stick fight? Yet it’s ironic that many martial artists scoff at the idea as it pertains to empty hand fighting -- calling that “sport” and saying it’s detrimental! I am forever amazed by this incongruity.

In terms of a progression, I favour a balance of technical and practical.

You can train someone to be a pretty good stickfighter with a limited number of techniques, and have them spar a *whole* lot to develop the timing and distance attributes to enable them to pull it off. They learn half a dozen angles, and about the same number of combinations, how to bridge from long range to close, a couple of takedowns and you're sweet. Obviously when you get down on the ground, and you ditch the sticks, it's a different game.

But in general, this approach will turn out a great stickfighter in a year or two. *BUT* most people won't want to do just those drills all the time. They'll get bored and leave. If you don't have the motivation to just be a fighter (eg self preservation in a hostile place) you won't do it. That's why a "traditional" system has a small syllabus. They only learned enough to defeat most attacks.

To keep people engaged in the long term, you need a depth to the system. Some systems (commercially motivated) have an expanded syllabus to give students a bunch of stuff to learn over a long period. If you have a bunch of stages to learn a bunch of stuff, you keep folks for a long time. But they may not be able to fight at the end of it all.

I teach for a friend of mine. His school is primarily japanese based, but they had an interest in stickfighting, and had bought some WEKAF sparring gear. Problem was, their stick training was, to be nice, pretty bad. They didn't really grasp the basic concepts. (For example, to block horizontal shots to the middle, they used the punyo. Great way to get your hand destroyed...) So I helped out, and made a syllabus for them. Each level is divide into two halves - technical and practical. Technical is stuff like abecedario, siniwalli and flow drills, practical is power strikes, combinations and sparring.

I belive if you practice both technical and practical skills, you develop fighting attributes and ability, but there is enough depth to your art to keep your brain busy. And eventually you'll be able to practically pull of the technical stuff.

Can a simple approach yield a depth of knowledge? I personally believe it can. The "art" is found in application. It is the poetry in motion. In other words, "art" isn't teaching someone a jab (boxing reference). The "art" of the jab lies in the process of its execution (the application of the tool). Art is "found" within the doing.

It's when one performs that real learning occurs. The depth of art is discovered through the process of performing the art.

Basically what this means is, we need to get individuals into the process of "performing" (stick fighting, boxing, wrestling, vale tudo, etc) as quickly as possible so that they can begin that process of learning and discovery. In that environment, learning on a level FAR beyond what a "teacher" can convey is achieved.

So in simplicity, there is depth. There are also other benefits. They can begin the process sooner because there is less emphasis on accumulation which leaves more time for actual training. It's also FUN and functional as well. People begin to see and discover the "truth in combat" as it pertains to them. Higher learning and thus "depth" is achieved. "Advanced" technique is discovered and it usually nothing but a refinement of the basics. Whatever else is left, is discovered within that environment of "doing".

On another note, it's weird how much more intense drills become after you've been to the edge (so to speak). If you get people into the act of fighting as soon as possible, when you come back to the drills, you'll often discover one of two things:

1. The drills importance is more clearly understood, or

2. The drills BS factor is immediately understood.

Some drills have more to do with "art" and less to do with "application" (fighting). This is true within ANY martial art. The aliveness factor is a great "barometer" of the relative BS (found within anything).

A few techniques can yield favorable results in most encounters, but if you only train with one group, or one style, you reach a point where you know He'll do this technique, you'll counter with that one, and so on. As time goes on, you need to introduce more stuff, so you all grow.

Another alternative is to play with a different style. I've been looking at a lot of pekiti tirsia stuff of late (hard to do too much, as there's no-one in Australasia who does it that I know of. We just get bits from our Lameco eskrima training). That style's approach is very different. There's no block & counter drilling as such, more what they term counter-offence. This is stimulating quite a bit of new thought...

I suppose that is one of the reasons why we don't do "styles". We do the style of "swinging the stick to knock the guy in the head", lol. But no one is limited to HOW they swing the stick.

Swinging the stick just "is". How many ways can you really do so with any credible power? There are only so many angles truthfully. We use 9. IMO, we really don't need styles to tell us how to swing a stick in at various angles once the basic mechanics of swinging it have been taught. We need only to swing the stick at our partners for him/her to learn.

Just like with empty-hand fighting. There are no styles really. There's only ONE style ultimately and until I grow a third arm, or a another joint that bends more laterally as well as linearly, there probably won't be a whole lot of new innovations. Thats going to be true of both stick fighting and empty hand. Styles are BS at the end of the day.

If we think about it, swinging with power is the main goal. We can do all of the fancy stuff that we want really, but if it doesn't put a charging man (with a stick) down, it's all pretty much useless.

Swinging with power is done simply by swinging hard. That's going to resemble swinging with a baseball bat. Not a whole of of fancy mess there really. Just straight through.

So truthfully, we need only to be concerned with swinging the stick, executing good footwork, evading or blocking the attack and swinging back. Not a whole lot of style points there, but it's simply effective.

Jkogas, i would love to have you as an instructor, you are on my wavelength completely with this.I think some of the 'tip tap' kind of strikes that exist in escrima/arnis are there purely for short swords like the Kris, and can and should be chucked out of the window when the training is focussed on sticks/blunt weapons of opertunity: no blade+no point= no use.

I agree 100% that swinging the stick right isn't hard and in the end, it's all that counts. I've always repeated to others "one and two is your bread and butter". This is true for kali, boxing, grappling - anything where you use two arms.But there is more to the stick technique than just strike and block. Each of the subsystems has their own theory on how to pull the best counterstrike off of a block or parry, how to check and pass a weapon, how to flow seamlessly from one attack into another. I think these elements are not only valid, but what seperates a kali practitioner from just some person with a stick. Tapping just improves speed and stamina. It's not meant to be a resistance drill or any kind of sparring. You can build it to that point, but if you can't do the basics, it won't work. Also, stripping, grappling, trapping etc. all play a large role in the system. These techniques are very hard to learn and I know very few that can pull them off in a full-on pressure situation. I once saw an instructor block an attack and by the time the attacker noticed he was hit by three elbows along the way, the instructor had him in a stick triangle choke.I'm not trying to argue anything here, but I really love Kali in all it's forms and I think it deserves to be recognized as a serious discipline like any MA.But you're right - in the end, it's all about whack 'em with the stick

Dont get me wrong, i love all the clever strips and disarms and stuff, its fun to drill, and I am all for people enjoying the depth of their art. It is merely my belief that some of the striking that we learn with a stick would only pose any form of threat to an oponent if applied with the short sword. At work i carry an ASP baton and a 6 cell maglight, not a machete, so I tend to focus more on the strikes with a bit of 'oomph' to them. When you spar,you tend to see reliance on the speed with which you can land 'good uns' on an oponent, rather than clever traps n taps, just the same as if you are fighting unarmed, it makes sense if you see an opening, to land a right cross, not a left backfist. its just getting the most bang for your buck.

Maybe as my skill improves I will be able to make more use of the subtleties, and my opinion will change. I will keep an open mind as things develop.

My opinion on these things has been forged through my own experience and that of others (Dog Brothers, etc) who have "been there and done that". Without question, each of them has discussed the differences between the "show" side and the "functional" side of martial arts (stick fighting and everything else). And there is a huge gulf between what is functional and what is purely aesthetic ("ornamental"). In short, there is a LOT of stuff that will NEVER work in real fights. I’ve spent over the past three years on this site saying essentially the same things.

All of the fancy disarms…don’t work in real fights. Burton Richardson will be the first person to tell you that. He fought in the Dog Brother’s “Gatherings”. It doesn’t get any more real than that.

Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work (unless perhaps you are yielding a machete). They’ve seen too many instances of people with their wrists cut through while STILL having functional grip-strength in their hands, etc.

To sum it all up, it would behoove ALL of us in the martial arts to decide that we’re either interested in functional martial arts or showy b*llsh*t. Either we want the truth, or we want to believe in fantasies. You can't really have it both ways.

I’m like Cord; there’s NOTHING wrong with pursuing more “flowery” martial arts practices – so long as you’re aware of the fact that you’re probably never going to be able to fight very well with them. And it’s that aspect of martial arts that I prefer not to waste my time, or the time of my students with. We owe it to them to bust through the myths.

I'm all for making sure it is realistic stuff as opposed to flowery. If you train like you mean it then hopefully if you need it then you are able to use it under pressure because this is what you are used to.

John, nice post, but I've got a couple of thoughts on some points you raised.

"All of the fancy disarms…don’t work in real fights. Burton Richardson will be the first person to tell you that. He fought in the Dog Brother’s “Gatherings”. It doesn’t get any more real than that."

Hard as they are (and I have all kindsa respect for foilks that fight in them) a DB gathering is not exactly the same as a real stick fight. Talk to someone from the Philippines who has had to fight for their life with a stick (someone like GM Bobby Tadoada, for example). Although you wear very little protection in the DB format, headgear makes a big difference. I doubt most folks would charge and close without it, no matter how good their roof block is. And when you are up close, a punyo to the face is a *lot* different without a mask on. Not to mention the difference gloves make. Speaking of which...

"Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work (unless perhaps you are yielding a machete). They’ve seen too many instances of people with their wrists cut through while STILL having functional grip-strength in their hands, etc."

Not too sure about that... a cut to the wrist, near the base of the thumb will sever the tendons holding it in place, releasing whatever is in the hand. Tatung Ilustissimo won more than one "death match" by cutting the guys thumb off. As for hitting somone in the hand with a heavy stick (like kamagong), there are at least a couple of dozen small bones in the hand. Whacking them with a heavy hardwood stick (or an ASP baton...) with almost certainly smash thm, probably quite severely impairing hand function.

It's not my intention to flame-bait, but the DB format, and UFC are still not 100% real combat. Some (and I do mean *some*) of the "flowery" stuff was created by people to train for actual combat. Sometimes it may end up being a practical technique, other times to train an attribute. To blindly dismiss *all* of it out of hand, and without research (and maybe closer to the "source") is both a bit disrespectful, and perhaps missing out of useful material.

-----I'll ditto your sentiments regarding a punyo in the face being rather "unpleasant". I wore one recently [as a result of an accident] and have only just got rid of the bruising...

Mike, I know your post is directly addressed to JK, but as I echo his outlook on this (whilst having less experience, admittedly) I would like to to address some of your points.

disarms through severity of injury are always prone to going horribly wrong- the body has an annoying habit of withstanding stuff it has no buisness withstanding. a shot to the hand 'should' break bones, but if the hand is moving with the force placed upon it, it wont. I have dropped an engine block on my foot- hurt like hell, but nothing broke. I dont know why or how I got away with it. People fall off roofs and walk away unharmed. Predictive physics when dealing with injury is an inconstant thing.

as for the thumb tendon- a horrible injury no doubt, and ruins articulation of an object, but grip? when I was bodybuilding, i would regularly train without using my thumb in my grip, the idea behind this was to prevent forearm fatigue during pulling movements by ommiting the 'weakest link' in the grip mechanism. i was perfectly able to lift over 300lbs in such a way, and am sure I could hang on to a stick hard enough sans thumb to use it as a weapon.

your best bet in hand attacks is to create a 'shock' reflex drop of the weapon, adrenaline will override a huge amount of injury so it cant be relied on, especialy in a fight of the severity in your examples.

again, on this point, how many of us are likely to get in a filipino death match?, I doubt many Filipino's will get in such a position these days, let alone me in Cambridge UK, so again it comes down to function or self satisfaction. i may, though unlikely (hopefully), really have to hit someone with a stick (ASP/Torch) to protect myself at work. Do i train for this guy to be a burgalar launching a desperation attack to get away from being apprehended, or do I train for him to be a seasoned Filipino stick fighter looking to test his skills in a university building at 2am?

There is no disrespect in JK's or my outlook, merely taking what we need from an art. Its what everyone does in their own way.

Quote:Mike, I know your post is directly addressed to JK, but as I echo his outlook on this (whilst having less experience, admittedly) I would like to to address some of your points.

No worries, it's all about discussion

Quote:disarms through severity of injury are always prone to going horribly wrong- the body has an annoying habit of withstanding stuff it has no buisness withstanding. a shot to the hand 'should' break bones, but if the hand is moving with the force placed upon it, it wont. I have dropped an engine block on my foot- hurt like hell, but nothing broke. I dont know why or how I got away with it. People fall off roofs and walk away unharmed. Predictive physics when dealing with injury is an inconstant thing.

Very true. However Jk's quote was... "Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work ..." Not that it won't work some, or even a lot of the time. To essentially give the impression that hand-hit disarms are completely pointless (possibly my reading of it) is inaccurate.

Quote:as for the thumb tendon- a horrible injury no doubt, and ruins articulation of an object, but grip? when I was bodybuilding, i would regularly train without using my thumb in my grip, the idea behind this was to prevent forearm fatigue during pulling movements by ommiting the 'weakest link' in the grip mechanism. i was perfectly able to lift over 300lbs in such a way, and am sure I could hang on to a stick hard enough sans thumb to use it as a weapon.

I was thinking about this as I replied, 'cos it was moving away from the stick aspect of the post. Point is a severing of the tendon may not instantly cause the weapon to drop, but to strike without the use of the thumb makes the attack pretty ineffectual, surely a "defanged snake". Try it yourself . Grip a stick just with you fingers (thumb tucked out of the way for safety) and strike a bag/tyre/post/rope as hard as you can. Without the use of the thumb, you'll lose your weapon. In combat the person would first sever the tendon, then, if the other person pressed a counter-offense (gotta love those pekiti tirsia terms) they'll lose the weapon on impact with a defensive counterstrike (or block). Your "thumbless" training was gripping, not striking.

Quote:your best bet in hand attacks is to create a 'shock' reflex drop of the weapon, adrenaline will override a huge amount of injury so it cant be relied on, especialy in a fight of the severity in your examples.

Point taken. Again though, I have to refer back to fighting without hand protection. We do it *very* seldomly (is there such a word?). If you're training is with ice hockey gloves you notice a difference going to lighter (say street hockey) gloves, to none at all. It is quite noticeable. The thing is being hit has two effects: pain and damage. You may be able to shrug off the pain, but actual physiological damage may become impairing. We spend a *lot* of time doing hand-target sparring. In this we try to hit only the hand, with a fair ammount of power (or lots depending on the mood ) This actually achieves two things: one is we know we can hit the hand. But more importantly you learn to strike a small, moving target at will. If you can to this acurately, regularly, with power, you can pretty much hit whatever, whenever.

Quote:again, on this point, how many of us are likely to get in a filipino death match?, I doubt many Filipino's will get in such a position these days, let alone me in Cambridge UK, so again it comes down to function or self satisfaction. i may, though unlikely (hopefully), really have to hit someone with a stick (ASP/Torch) to protect myself at work. Do i train for this guy to be a burgalar launching a desperation attack to get away from being apprehended, or do I train for him to be a seasoned Filipino stick fighter looking to test his skills in a university building at 2am?

I don't imagine any of us in the west (I hate that term) would end up in a filipino "death match" without a lot of effort on our part. But that wasn't really my point. I was trying to say that a style of fighting based, in sole or part around protection, is less likely to yeild completely realistic results than not. What the UFC is and the DB format is, is still a controlled form of combat, and participants will end up playing to, and relying on, protection and rules. (For a "no holds barred event, the UFC has an awful lot of rules...)

And, I'm sorry to say, in the provinces and poorer areas in the PI, people *do* rely on FMA skills to protect themselves (more often knife, than stick...) even today.

Quote:There is no disrespect in JK's or my outlook, merely taking what we need from an art. Its what everyone does in their own way.

As I said earlier, it's all about the discussion. What I meant about the respect thing is a pet peeve of mine. I'm a bit tired of people disecting an art, removing what they consider to be "archiac" or whatever, but then still refering to what they do as that art. If you want to call what you do kali/eskrima/arnis/whatever, you should at least have some relation to those arts, otherwise don't call it that, 'cos it isn't. This is not a poke at you or JK or whoever, as I don't know what you guys teach or train. It's just what I meant by the disrespect statement.

As an aside Cord, you're in Cambridge? Are you at Ollie Blatt's school? I've heard good things about him...

We do train the whole gamut of Kali/escrima techniques, and as i said in my first post, as my skill increases i may find more applicable value in techniques other than knocking peoples teeth out with a big stick , but through my own limitations i only take the basics out of the classrom for use at work.

As well as Ollie, Julie, and the assistant instructors, we also have Guro Danny Guba (Doce Pares escrima), come and do a teaching slot for us once per month. I do not attend this as it is geared towards the more advanced students, and I dont want to take up a place that could go to someone who could make something of it, as opposed to me looking lost at the back halfway through the first pattern

Ollie is one of those annoying guys who shows talent at everything he puts his mind to, from Savate to Sombo to stick work, not to mention TKD. It makes the schools interpretation of JKD (loosely based around Filipino arts- like Dan Inosanto's methods), very interesting.

i know your the other side of the world, but people do travel, if you ever make it over, give me a shout, and you can come and play

"It's not my intention to flame-bait, but the DB format, and UFC are still not 100% real combat."

No flame necessary. I think (or I hope) that if those orgs were 100% real combat, people wouldn't be so into them. Why? Because then it wouldn't be any fun!!!

Guys, I hate to argue on the point of disarms, but the answer to whether they work or not is spread all over this thread - they do, just not right away. If you were able to cut a thumb tendon, wrist or make an opponenet lose enough blood, you're ripe for a disarm. The afforementioned "shock" technique works nicely too. We usually practice this way and only change the target if an eye gouge etc. would normally be used. I've also managed to pull off a few disarms and traps during sparring - again we use helmets, gloves and padded sticks, but the pressure is there so I don't completely discount it. Of course, every time I pull it off I chalk it up as luck (i'm really not that good ).To be honest, my favorite technique is to catch or trap the arm holding the stick, then take the guy to the ground and try to choke him out. So much for the fancy stuff

My JKD teacher is a student of Bob Breen's in London, and we keep threatening to go train there. I have friends in Oxford, a mere hop-skip and jump from you. So a visit is not completely out of the question.

Danny was in New Zealand for a while, a long time ago, but I did train with him. He's a good teacher, very knowledgable.

No-one is going to pull off a disarm "cold", you do need to mess the guy up a bit. Especialy if you're attempting a disarm from a block or trap. Soften up, then try it. Same as a takedown or joint lock.

A favourite technique of mine is to snake under the stick arm (from a trap or block). You can them apply a straight armbar on the elbow, drag him down, pull him in for a knee, hook the punyo round the back of his head to throw him,... lotsa different stuff. But to make it work so have to soften him up. I tend to go from am inside block or roof block, secure the hand and punyo a bit to the face, body, whatever, then snake under. If you train it a lot, you tend to be able to pull it off a fair bit, and if not, you're still in a (relatively) good position.

That “should” speak volumes. If those fights aren’t “real”, someone needs to tell the guy who had his kneecap split after taking a shot there. Or the guys who went to hospital for lacerated scalps, broken bones, etc.

No, no one is trying to kill their opponents (I DO understand your point) but ya know something? Mechanics are mechanics. The only thing they aren’t doing is fighting with machetes. Of course, we don’t train with them either (for “real”).

We can do one of two things; Train for performance or perform patterns.

mike-a wrote:

Quote:

Talk to someone from the Philippines who has had to fight for their life with a stick (someone like GM Bobby Tadoada, for example).

That's interesting to say the LEAST! Bobby is HERE in the Charlotte area where I’m at! What an amazing man. I’ve actually met him before at a seminar. He has always spoken well of the Dog Brothers and everything they represent. He also knows the the Dog Brothers were all taught by old Filipino guys. Erik Knaus was a student of Pikiti Tersia as were many of the others. They're just actually fighting and seeing what comes out of that "truth". Pretty important I'd say. Much better than theories and speculation about what "might work". To DO is to KNOW, if you get my meaning. The opposite would be to merely "take someone's WORD" about a 'thing'.

mike-a wrote:

Quote:

Although you wear very little protection in the DB format, headgear makes a big difference. I doubt most folks would charge and close without it, no matter how good their roof block is. And when you are up close, a punyo to the face is a *lot* different without a mask on. Not to mention the difference gloves make. Speaking of which...

They wear fencing masks often. I'm quite sure you’ll probably know that those don’t stop power shots very well. They were them primarily to protect the eyes and not get terribly cut up. You can see the damage that some of the fighters have taken even while wearing those masks. Sure it’s "some" protection but isn’t significant.

The person who doesn’t train with some kind of protection doesn’t really train, wouldn't you say?

Quote: Jkogas wrote:"Medical doctors will tell you that “defanging the snake” doesn’t work (unless perhaps you are yielding a machete). They’ve seen too many instances of people with their wrists cut through while STILL having functional grip-strength in their hands, etc."

mike-a wrote:

Quote:

Not too sure about that... a cut to the wrist, near the base of the thumb will sever the tendons holding it in place, releasing whatever is in the hand.

I am just telling you what medical doctors have expressed. I’ve discussed this very subject with doctors who train martial arts, knife and stick fighting. They speak only of experience. That’s worth a lot more than conjecture and speculation in my opinion. Kind of hard to argue with experience.

mike-a wrote:

Quote:

Tatung Ilustissimo won more than one "death match" by cutting the guys thumb off.

Trust me, I would never discredit cutting a thumb off, lol. People have and can do some amazing things due to adrenaline however. But that’s not the point, I’m aware. Kind of hard to cut the thumb off with a stick though. Context is everything. Not many people are fighting with machetes these days. That is part of it.

mike-a wrote:

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As for hitting somone in the hand with a heavy stick (like kamagong), there are at least a couple of dozen small bones in the hand. Whacking them with a heavy hardwood stick (or an ASP baton...) with almost certainly smash thm, probably quite severely impairing hand function.

Maybe, maybe not. I know hand shots work. The thing is, I wasn’t saying that hand shots weren’t effective. Nothing of the kind. I’m saying that we don’t need patterns to practice them with. That’s the gist of my argument if you think about it.

The notion of a guy losing all of his grip strength because of a defang has been somewhat disproved however. Not to say it “can’t” happen. Only that medical teams constantly test the grip strength of people who have had their tendons cut. You might be surprised at the people who retain functional strength despite severe injuries to those tendons.

Again, I’m not making this up. It has been confirmed through discussions with medical doctors from operating rooms in hospitals.

mike-a wrote:

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It's not my intention to flame-bait, but the DB format, and UFC are still not 100% real combat.

It’s as real as knees to the face hurt and cause knock outs. What more do you want to happen? Do people then need to run over them in their cars to make it more “street” credible?

Context again.

I understand the point again however. No one is saying the they are ‘street fights’. But we don’t TRAIN in barrooms or streets either for that matter. It always comes down to whether one trains for performance, or chooses to engage in dead patterns and other such unnecessary rituals.

mike-a wrote:

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Some (and I do mean *some*) of the "flowery" stuff was created by people to train for actual combat.

And much of it was also created before the advent of scientific training methods and safety equipment. There would be NO NEED to approach much of the training in the way that they did before the use of such things. Modern technology makes certain things and ways obsolete. Flowing with the times is important.

mike-a wrote:

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Sometimes it may end up being a practical technique, other times to train an attribute. To blindly dismiss *all* of it out of hand, and without research (and maybe closer to the "source") is both a bit disrespectful, and perhaps missing out of useful material.

Practical technique that never comes out during real contact stick fights? If it doesn’t come out when the need for performance arises, then you have to blame the training methods.

If it’s about attribute development, there are ways of doing so without the use of dead patterns and flowery forms. We can hit heavy bags now. We can hit focus pads now. We can even hit each OTHER now. That’s not something that the old guys in the old days would have been able to do, to the extent that WE can - again, all because of modern technology. No, it isn’t the same thing as actually hitting people over the head with a power shot when the target isn’t wearing protection. But the old guys weren’t doing that themselves. They’d have had no one to TRAIN with beyond the first session.

Wow. GREAT post, John. You pretty much nutshelled everything I could have hoped to say, esp. regarding the Dog Bros, the PHI fighters and modern vs. ancient training. Of course, I do practice forms, mainly in KF, outside of class or sparring. I don't do it because I think it makes me a better fighter or even as a "reference" to various stances, strikes, etc., but to get in touch with my physical self. Believe it or not, when you focus on a form you can feel slight differences in every muscle, nerve and joint in your body. When sparring, these things run rampant without your notice - which is good and backs up the point of training for performance over pattern - but when you get the chance to slow down and FEEL those new developments in your physical makeup, well... it's kind of eye opening.Anyway, my point is I notice a significant difference if I practice siniwali patterns or "the box" or "the tussle" or any of those fun little games. As soon as I take it to the sparring level, I don't rely on those practices, but I do notice that A) my 1 and 2 strikes become WAY more accurate, well timed and powerful and B) I manage to get off a few disarms/traps once in a while. I'm not out to uphold any kind of tradition or be an antiquated MAist (actually, my knowledge of any 'tradition' in kali is shameful) but I do feel from experience that patterns and forms can help move you in the right direction.You are 100% right about the reality factor though. And really, is anyone "realistically" going to go out in the street and pick a fight with a trained stick/knife fighter? I would think that the stick grappling techniques would be the MOST useful in the bar room, and I doubt anyone causing major trouble would stand a chance against a skilled individual with the short cue.

Sorry Reiki, I'll try and keep to the topic, BUT I would like to add one wee rebuttle to JKogas reply to my last post.

To say a gathering or a UFC-style fight is any more real any other type of fight JUST by mentioning the ammount of damage done to the participants is a bit misleading. My point is that in any of these events there are only 2 participants, they know what weapons or techniques are allowed, they know they're going to be fighting (IE not an ambush or something), they know there is a time period, and they know they have at least some protection. This obviously affects they ways you train and fight.If you train in a harder type of contact format just to deal with the danger, all you are doing is adding pain and possible damage to a sparring situation. But would I want to take on one of these guys? Hell no! I'd also be very wary of top professional boxers and olympic wrestlers!

The drills and techniques practiced in most FMA systems are just that - drills. the Balintawak system of GM Bobby Taboada (for example) has many drills, the "shadow fighting" form, the various levels of block and counter, the disarms (When I learned Balintawak there were MANY disarms, but I understand it he has pared it down some), the "group" system and a bunch more. These drills are designed to develop the attributes of the Balintawak style, a very close range stickfighting system. Balintawak eskrimadors hit VERY hard, they have excellent infighting skills, and, if they want GM Bobby will train them in the "old school" way He was taught. Full contact, live sticks, NO protection. (However, being the US, I'm pretty sure they have to sign liablity waivers... ) Thing is, these drills and that system produce fighters who work in a different range to the DB style format. The primary goal is not to charge and crash and go to the ground the Balintawak guys train very hard not to let anyone do it to them. How would it go with one style versus the other? Depends on the guys on the day. Not neccessarily on the styles, or on the training methods.

You could have a system based entirely on the most efficient, modern methods, no "dead patterns" lots of fighting and contact, but the person training has to be able to make it his own, and find a way to use it. You could have the most over-flowery, drill based system, that never spar, but the guy may have the most amazing attributes and timing, and be able to pull off the most ridiculous looking stuff, more or less at will.

Yes, great discussion. Everyone is going to have differences of opinion. Nowhere is this more evident than in the Filipino martial arts. It's widely known that many of the old grandmasters didn't get along with each other, lol. That might have had to do with.....differences of opinion.

I really don't have the time to fully ingest and reply to your post, though I will try and do so later. However I did want to let you know that I have enjoyed the discussion as well. Thanks for your insights.