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Thanks Dannylux for the sheet music. This helps me in two ways. First I can see now what is up with the 'syncopated runs' as I called them. The thing I was hearing were indeed the grace notes. Because they are the highest notes in the run each time before it runs down again, and up to the next grace note which is the highest again, they are the notes that struck my attention the most. So because I could hear them so good I noticed they were just after the beat each time. But now I see that they are kind of jabbed between the run. Good job on those runs they seem a bitch to play, but you get the feeling of them across excellently, even the crescendo comes across quite powerfully, although I think you could make it even grander and end with ff to move into the mp espressivo. But I realize how hard it is to mind a crescendo when you've got all those staccato notes under your fingers... I personally wouldn't bother with it, oh... something like the whole first year I played this piece...

Secondly I could see how excellently you followed the advice given by the composer, but at the same time you aren't afraid to do something with it yourself. Such as the appassionata molto forte... that is quite some power and passion you put into those chords, I don't know where you get it from. Excellent this piece has such an array of moods I really like it the more I study it. And an example of making it your own, I mean like the mp espressivo, is that pedal I hear? I like that sort of thing the espressivo is only a word on the score nothing more, but you've got to make it into music! And have to use all means available to you. Good job!

I am sorry if yoy did not like my comments on the Waltz, Mel. I knew it was a dangerous thing to do, giving critical comments on a piece that I did not know anything about. The reason why you got the critical comment, Mel, is that I admire your playing and would like to learn some more about it.If I only get positive feedback myself I always think that people are not beeing honest with me.

So I learned something and I got a lot more knowledge of this music and that was a nice thing about it

Still, it would have been interesting to hear Levitzki playing the gypsy waltz !

I wish I had time to do a blow-by-blow on everyone's performances; I know that kind of thing is really helpful. Thanks to those who did.

I do feel comfortable critiquing my own, though. I wish I could have made these pieces more emotional somehow, but they are not examples of Bach's most sensuous music. I chose these to work on mainly to try to improve my trilling, because there's a lot of it in the prelude. I would have liked to end each trill more crisply, with a nice little turn, but couldn't always manage it. The comments about the tempo make me feel like I was playing them too fast, although the recording I have (the Naxos complete WTC by Jena Jando) is much faster!

When I recorded these, I was really just experimenting to find out how the built-in mic works on our laptop and was pleasantly surprised at the quality, so I decided to post the results. The prelude was the first and only take. I tried the fugue a few times to try to eliminate every mistake but couldn't quite get to that level. Overall, I didn't agonize too much over this. I appreciate having the opportunity.

Thanks for the in-depth reviews, everyone certainly will appreciate them.

As for me and my playing style, I believe that stephenc said it best that I "de-compose" a piece, "re-compose" it, and ultimately memorize it. Thats basically true.

I tend to read about 30% of whats written and make up most of the rest. The finished product will usually sound very similar to the original as I am just playing the tune the way I hear it in my head.

I can usually hear a slightly different version of just about any song as I try to play it the way I would have written it (Thats, if I did write it, which I did'nt)...make sence?

I am not a good sight reader and I really can't play by ear but I do have an ability to hear very creative versions of tunes in my mind.

My goal is to one day be able to transfer these "musical thoughts" actually onto the piano keys. I am just starting to do this now, but in a very, VERY beginer type of way.

Some day, I would like to be able play a complete improvised version of many songs. This is very fun for me. I guess it's some kind of creative outlet for me; and besides, it keeps me off the street for a while!

Nighteyes, you have obviously listened carefully to everyone’s recordings and given some very thoughtful feedback. I enjoyed reading your impressions. However when I got to your description of Frycek’s playing my eyes almost popped out of my head. If you found too many fffs, did you not think of turning the volume down? I think this particular recording, for whatever reason, came across louder and clearer than most of the others but if you listen again with the volume turned down perhaps you will be able to appreciate it better. I am quite sure that there was nothing too loud in the actual performance, which is of a lullaby (the words “dissonant and uneasy” apply to the other parts of the Scherzo which Frycek did NOT play).

I know you have only six months’ experience of the piano, but even so it amazes me that you were unable to recognise that this particular performance was one of the best of them all.

By the way, I also thought that your recording of Bach’s 1st Prelude was excellent considering the short time you have been playing – it was admirably even and I look forward to hearing more of your playing in future. I also look forward to you learning more about piano music in general so that you can perhaps at some point appreciate Frycek’s rendition of the Chopin lullaby and maybe even apologise to her one day.

Hi maryrose, personally, I don't think apologies are called for. Nighteyes gave what I saw as an honest account of his perspective of our playing. He's only been playing for six months, but I don't know his listening experience. Either way, any analysis in this critical discussion thread should be taken with the assumption that the author of the analysis has spent the time to listen to the recording and then much more time to attempt to get their thoughts and feelings down on e-paper .

I have nothing but admiration for folks who have the time and the energy to be able to listen to all the pieces and then expend even more energy to help the performers improve their playing. My advice to performers would be to listen to a professional version of their piece, compare it to their interpretation and see if the reviewer has any valid points that you can take advantage of. If not, then please don't take it personally.

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Originally posted by Nighteyes:Bob Muir: I think that melody was in some baby toy thing I had long long ago… all I know is that this melody goes back a long way in my memory, it’s been there for years and years… what is it known for? Can you provide me with some more details? (It’s probably something really well known but I don’t know what it is…)[/b]

That would be Brahm's Lullaby. The introduction and finale are bits from that lullaby. You know, "go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep baby Jesus".

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Anyway, very subtly played, nice glissando’s, they sound quite smooth… and I liked how you kept a ‘low profile’ so to say, you generally keep the volume low (one or two mezzo fortes) and let the melody subtly work on the ear. [/b]

Thank you NE. Actually, there weren't any glissandos in the song, but I think I know what you mean. It's more about adding other notes to the melody note as accents. One of the most important techniques of playing is to vary the volume to add interest and emotion to the piece. However clumsily it was carried out, that was my intent.

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One thing that struck me though, there is only so much you can do with this melody, after a while it gets to repetitive and there is nothing happening anymore. [/b]

Yep, you hit the nail there. For simple songs, and Away in a Manger is one of the simplest, it's very important to be able to somehow change the melody enough in the repetitions to prevent boredom from setting in to the audience. You'll notice that most professional Christmas songs will have the singer sing the song once through, then you'll have the song played with instruments only, then the singer will sing the song one or two more times. The instrumental really helps in keeping the repetition from sounding so repetitive.

I had meant to play the melody in a different octave the second time through, but when I was playing it, I forgot to do that and I just didn't have time for another take, so I submitted it as it was. One thing I have to say about learning to play by ear, you learn how to play a song many, many different ways. This makes it easier to extend the length of songs while keeping it interesting for the listener. I'm still not there, but I've only been playing by ear for a year, so there's lots of room for improvement in the coming years.

Thank you for taking the time to carefully listen to the submissions and give us your interpretation of what you understood from each piece.

While you obviously took the time to listen and critique all the performances, the people posting them also devoted time to learn, practice, record and post their pieces. You rewarded at least one of them with a critique that crossed the line from useful criticism into nastiness.

I think actionable critical feedback is welcome. Nastiness is not. I edited your post to remove the nastiness.

Music is very subjective. 2 listeners may have totally opposite views from one playing.

In this group, we play piano just for the pure love of playing piano. But some people are just happy to be able to make some music that they never had a chance to do it at younger age. Some people try to work for perfection. And some people are in between so let me take a stab at this, but I am not going to point out to any specific participant. Overall, I think the quality of playing in this recital is from good to very good. I was totally amazed by the improvement some of you made since the 1st and 2nd recitals. But for some, you really need to work on playing both hands simultaneously; I heard quite a bit of notes not together/out of sync. Practice slowly (as slow as needed) and try to concentrate on pressing the keys down together with both hands.

And someone else already brought this up, some of you really need to use your metronome. If you don't have one, go get one.

Coming into this thread a little late, so I hope it's ok to get back to something that was discussed back at the very beginning of it.

Monica, Opus45 already said this, but let me second that it is incredibly beneficial to practice without the pedal. (I need to do it even more, I'm a pedal addict!) By practicing without the pedal, you train yourself to hold those notes as long as you can. You train yourself to play (pedal-less) so that it sounds as good as it possibly can, without the pedal. That way, when you go and add the pedal later, instead of depending on the pedal to make up for what your fingers aren't doing, you are using the pedal to add to what your fingers are already doing, and the resulting sound is much richer.

Sometimes I'll get a piece mostly worked up with the pedal, so that I know what kind of pedaling I want to do, and then I'll practice it without the pedal, esp section practice, before going back to the pedal.

The other pedal-related thing is half-pedaling, or half-releasing. Are you doing a lot of very detailed pedaling, where you have quick releases and re-pedals? Are you comfortable doing half-releases and quick re-pedals? From reading your comments in this thread, it sounds like you should work on more of this kind of pedaling. But for the record, I'm listening to your recording now, and I don't notice any badly-pedaled sections, so you're probably doing fine!

Regarding octaves, there's been a lot of good advice here already, but another thing I like to do is play HS and not look at the hand that's playing, either look at the other hand's position (even though it's not playing) or look at the score. Then I'll play HS the hand that doesn't have all those octaves, and I'll look at the side of the keyboard where the octave hand should be. And then, I'll play HT and watch[/b] that octave-hand while I'm playing. When I have to move my RH a lot and play octaves, I tend to overstretch and end up playing a ninth, so I'll look at the pinkie, or I'll look at the note where I want the pinkie to land. And sometimes just visualizing the note I want to hit, about a second before I need to hit it, is enough. Hope this is at least a little bit helpful!

Ok now wait here... this was not the deal... This is supposed to be a critical discussion room, and when I'm one of the first to actually have any critique, the alarm bells start ringing. I don't agree with you Phlebas that I was being nasty. Firstly, when I reread what I wrote, I don't think it's nasty. I just didn't like the piece! That's not to say I don't like the musician, or even the person! I have no reason to hold a grudge against anyone here, so I think you should have given me the benefit of the doubt... I was just trying to be honest. Maybe I should've just said I didn't like the piece, and left it at that. But personally I think that is more insulting. I have tried to argument why I didn't like the piece. And still more insulting, is saying you like it, when you don't.

So, I think this way of dealing with it isn't entirely right... and this not about how much time I may or may not have invested in listening to everyone, I truly enjoyed, both the listening and sharing my thought with everyone. Besides that I think it's quite hypocritical to just delete what I posted, like I never said it. Rather confront me with it, i.e. saying you thought I was being nasty, and should consider apologising. I think you made an issue out of it by actively stepping in, and I'm making an even bigger issue about it by posting this... but I just don't feel this is the right way to handle a disagreement.

To maryrose, while my limited time with the piano does not automatically mean I wouldn't know much about music. However, it's certainly true. And I have never presumed to know much about music, you can read that in my comments numerous times. So you could be spot on in saying that this limits my capability to hear the beauty in Frycek's piece... maybe I will come to appreciate it in time... it's still in my itunes playlist, and I have it on cd, so it's not going anywhere soon!

I thought NE gave a very observant critique of my performance. He was dead on...as far as I was concerned.

But I feel the same as MaryRose regarding Frycek.

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However when I got to your description of Frycek’s playing my eyes almost popped out of my head. [/b]

The piece that Frycek played (and played so wonderfully) is extremely difficult, especially to get that haunting but simple melody out in the right hand, almost sounds like a fragile silver bell ringing out over the fullness of chords. Or a mother's lovely voice gently lulling her baby to sleep. It takes a musical ear to hear it and appreciate its beauty. And a highly skilled and talented person to play it as eloquently as Frycek did.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Kathleen, when I got to the point of reading Nighteyes' critique about Frycek's performance I just stopped reading. I missed what he said about yours. I have now read it and think you are being too modest; he was not spot on. You were better than that - much, much better. What a gracious lady you are.

Having said that, I do think that Nighteyes has a wonderful time ahead as he improves his already good playing and matches that with listening skills and knowledge. I am quite sure he didn't mean to hurt anyone. Next time, maybe I will take part, and then he really WILL have material for criticism Which I will welcome.

One of the things I mentioned most often in my general reviews to specific performers was that they would benefit from keeping a more even tempo throughout the piece. When someone is just listening to the piece, esp someone who doesn't know the music or maybe knows the music but hasn't heard this performer's rendition, it's very disconcerting to have sudden speeding up or slowing down in the melody. When the music is a solo version of a well-known song (as many Christmas pieces are) this is doubly true. People tend to sing along in their heads, and if the melody you're playing suddenly changes tempo from the lyrics they have playing in their head, it makes the music sound/feel jerky.

Listening to this recital, three tempo problems stuck out, so I'll try address those as I noticed them.

1) Not giving notes their full value, or measures their full value. [/b]This tends to happen most often with whole or half notes, and esp when those notes come at the end of a measure or at the end of a phrase. For the performer, there's a feeling of needing to get on to the next section, esp if there's a difficult one coming up. But the music needs to breathe, and phrases need to feel completed. So playing a half or whole note to its full value is a crucial part of what goes into making the entire piece sing. While playing, it's really hard to tell if you're doing this yourself. This is where a teacher is helpful, but if you don't have a teacher, let your recording teach you. The easiest way to make sure you're not short-changing any notes is simply to count. Listen to your recording, and count (1,2,3,4, or better 1&,2&,3&,4&.) Anywhere that's rushed will stand out, because you'll be counting "1& 2& 3& 4&" and when you're at "4&" the music will be starting "1" of the next measure. If you find a place like that, then use the metronome to practice those measures (before and after the problem spot) and you can quickly train yourself to feel all the counts that are needed per measure.

Another thing that's helpful is to sing and see where you'd need to take a breath. Even though the final music will be solo piano, the phrases need to pause where a singing would be breathing, this makes it sound most natural and flowing for the listener.

2) Slowing down for difficult/fast passages.[/b] This is inevitable, esp for us ABers. Obviously we want to play up to tempo, and it's very tempting to start the piece at the proper tempo, slow down for a passage that's all difficult 16th notes or something, and then speed back up to the proper tempo again. But this leaves an uneven, unsettled impression on the listener. The first thing to do is isolate the sections that need to be played slower, and work on increasing the speed as much as you can without losing control or getting sloppy. Then figure out what that fastest possible speed is, and make the first measure, or easier measures, the same tempo. It may sound slow to your own ear, but if you re-train yourself to that tempo, it will make the overall piece sound much more polished. Again, a metronome can be helpful to re-set the tempo for the easier sections where you tend to play too fast.

3) Rushing through some parts, often the more difficult parts. [/b]This is the opposite of point number 2, because here often we have a difficult section (maybe it's all 16th notes) and we get sort of flustered by it, so we tend to rush through it, while we slow down and take our time on the sections where we're more comfortable. The result is that the notes sound squished together, and the overall tempo of the piece is uneven, so that the listener isn't able to relax. Even if you don't use a metronome, just counting (esp outloud during practice, but also silently while performing) will often solve this problem. If you use a metronome, it will be very obvious where you're getting ahead of the count, so those are the sections where you need to relax and keep yourself within the tempo.

4) Comments about playing rubato.[/b] (Sorry, did I say three points?) I didn't notice this as a problem with the current recital pieces, but I'm working a piece with rubato, so I thought I add a few comments about that. Many of you are familiar with David Nevue's "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen." I'm working on that (and hope to share a recording by Dec.) The tempo indication at the top of the score is "freely" and the first measure says "poco accel." while the second measure says "poco rit." My teacher pointed out that just because it says freely doesn't mean you can just let the tempo meander all over the place. She said that each measure should have the same value (length timewise) even if the notes within that measure speed up or slow down, otherwise the listener doesn't know/understand what's going on. So I'm thinking about this piece in two-measure chunks, the first measure speeds up and the second slows down, but all two-measure sets should take up essentially the same amount of time. Another thing that has really taught me a lot has been thinking about playing this piece in Japan. Most people here are not familiar with this music, so I'm very conscious that I need to provide an easy-to-follow melody, and where I speed up or slow down, it needs to be very clear to the listener what's happening when, and why.

I think this is a principle that could be applied to all music: a listener who doesn't know the melody or music should be able to follow the music, without making an effort or wondering what's going on.

I think following this principle would help some of the performers in the current online recital as well, because tempo is the perhaps the most basic element that the listener latches onto at the very beginning of the piece, and keeps ahold of until the music's end. If you don't have a teacher, you need to be your own teacher, and taking the time to see what needs to be fixed in your "finished" recording can be an excellent lesson.

Nighteyes, I wasn't going to comment on your post, because I thought maybe the issue would just fizzle out, but I think I'll add my two yen now.

I can't speak for Phlebas or say why he chose to edit your post, but I have to say that I am in agreement with his actions. The point of this thread is to give constructive criticism that performers can then use to make a change in their playing (if they so choose.) I thought that was what Phlebas meant when he said "actionable critical feedback." That comments in this thread should be along the lines of

"I thought X was a problem with your playing, so maybe you could trying doing Y and that would make an improvement."

You didn't provide any "constructive" in your criticism, no suggestions for what a performer could do differently. If you don't like the piece, why comment on it? You don't have to say "I don't like this piece." You can just forego mentioning it entirely. The point of the critical discussion thread is not whether someone likes a piece or not, but what we all think about each other's playing and how we can help each other to play better. So if you don't like someone's playing you can certainly comment on that and give some suggestions for what they can do better, but it seems that your comment didn't have that constructive element.

Also, I think it's important to remember that a lot of us screw up all the courage we have to post our recordings. Just because it's a recording doesn't mean "stage fright" is non-exisitant. In some ways it's even more scary than a live performance, because a live performance disappears as soon as the sound is out of the piano. Of course we want feedback on our recordings, because that will help us improve, but we are sort of delicate, and the same comment will strike us differently depending on how it's phrased.

You may not agree with me, but I hope my comments will help show you a different perspective. Thank you for reading.

I'm an American citizen, so yes, English is my first language. I've been in Japan for over 10 years I teach English as a second language, and my husband is Japanese. Your comment about my writing is especially appreciated because I really enjoy writing and hope to someday actually "write something." (as in get it published maybe?) And of course, thank you for complementing my playing as well.