steve, youÂ´re absolutey right... i have created a test path in the colorado system, created a new planet there... the test path is a multiple trade path from my planet to Denver, BTW my planet is 64+K away to the right of Denver that is past those Cheyene Asteroid Field... this trade path consists of 3 interconnetec paths... from my docking ring to somewhere along right side and below of Denver, then a straight path exactly beneath the Denver Docking Ring, then the third path is headed to the Denver Docking Ring... <img src=Â´http://www.sharemation.com/firebase/Freelancer/the_paths.jpg Â´> Now this path is very logical and realistic, cuz itÂ´s from a planet to another planet... off we go to space for testing... i followed my path... thereÂ´s traffic, no hailing or scanning, its okay no crashes... did it 4 times from Bataan to Denver and vice versa... finally, i scan one ship... scanned perfectly... flew away for a while and looked for another... found one, scanned, still no crashes... I tried to hail the ship... CTD... <img src=smilies/icon_smile_sad.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> looked up my codes... it is correctly written... I removed it and create a new path... This time it is from Bataan to New York Jump Gate, about 130K away, and only consists of one trade path... It worked fine, very fine... <font size=1 face="trebuchet ms"><BLOCKQUOTE><hr size=1 noshade><A href=Â´http://www.lancersreactor.orgÂ´ Target=_Blank><img src=Â´http://www.sharemation.com/firebase/Freelancer/FBTSymbol64x64.jpg Â´> a message from firebase...</a> <hr size=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face=Â´trebuchet ms, Verdana, Arial, HelveticaÂ´ size=2>

I totally forgot about the shortest path files! As the system I did my test in, has been placed between two original systems (which originally connected but now each is connected to the new system), I will certainly have screwed up the shortest paths up. Thanks for reminding Steve! So IÂ´d better modify the shortest path files before I proceed. But, damned, thatÂ´s a lot of work! Sometimes I would almost forget that I do all this modding for fun <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Btw, how do you hail a ship? The only interaction I have with NPC-ships is scanning their cargo and fighting them.

the second icon from the left of your scanner that appears when when you target a ship... There is no shortcut for the hail... .... i keep hitting that H button when i try to hail... <img src=smilies/icon_smile_big.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> JOKE... JOKE... JOKE!!! <font size=1 face="trebuchet ms"><BLOCKQUOTE><hr size=1 noshade><A href=Â´http://www.lancersreactor.orgÂ´ Target=_Blank><img src=Â´http://www.sharemation.com/firebase/Freelancer/FBTSymbol64x64.jpg Â´> a message from firebase...</a> <hr size=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face=Â´trebuchet ms, Verdana, Arial, HelveticaÂ´ size=2>

Thanks! Never knew that <img src=smilies/icon_smile_big.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Actually, I donÂ´t even know whatÂ´s the significance of &quot;hailing a ship&quot;, but I assume itÂ´s what friendly ships in the old days (say, 16th and 17th century) did when they met at open sea.

BL Winter: I downloaded your TLcalc.exe but it wonÂ´t run. I have the VB 5 runtime installed, and when that didnÂ´t work I got the VB 6.0 runtime files and installed them. That did not work either. Any suggestions? I am running under XP if that is any help. I know some programs written for 98 SE or ME wonÂ´t run under XP, but if you do have a solution, please let me know <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> LightRogue

Sun Striker, a single unique path is much easier to get working. What path labels have you got for your test multi-path route. Below are a couple of examples (sorry if IÂ´m telling you something you know). path_label = cryer1, 1 path_label = cryer1, 2 It would be great if you could get your multi-path fully working as I think youÂ´re 90% of the way there. You could post them to let us all have a look. WeÂ´d all learn if you found out what the problem is. moonhead, I use hailing to test out my patrol and trade routes. Plus obviously if I want to do a bit of piracy I can find out what is being carried on the transport and details of the trade route for future reference. i.e. What is being carried from one base to another. S

@LightRogue Already thought that it will crash... so I decided to redo the program, and it is almost done. I will post here when it is ready to download. And I hope it will not crash with the new version... -.-

BL Winter: Wow dood! You are ALRIGHT! I would like to add my thanks for your labors up front. I will definately use the tool. IÂ´m really starting to have a lot of fun with this mod, thanks to everyoneÂ´s kind help. You should see my patrol map! It looks like a spiderweb!! I have ten patrols all set up, and they are all working beautifully. I can scan cargo, hail the ships, engage them in combat, and they all attack tradelanes periodically. Some tips here might be useful to the group (or not) <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> 1) IÂ´ve found that making a patrol cross or closely parallel a tradelane in one location accomplishes two things: it really diminishes the chance of a tradelane disruption, and it makes the location of the disruption very predicatable. It also makes it hard to change the chance of an encounter because if you increase the chance in the faction description, you GREATLY increase the chance of an encounter when traveling at space-normal speeds. What you end up with is tons of patrols all over the place, and still VERY FEW tradelane disruptions. I counter this by making more complex patrol paths. My Outcasts patrol, for example, has 15 components. Seven of them cross two different tradelanes at various points. By doing this, I greatly increase the chances of tradelane attacks, without increasing the numbers of patrols in normal space. And it makes it impossible to guess WHERE along the tradelane the attack will come. My tradelanes are no longer among the safest in Sirius! Some of them are rather hazzardous! 2) I donÂ´t know if anyone else has encountered this, but the labeling of the path seems pretty significant to the game. If you have a single path for a faction, and number it as if there are more paths, the game tends to crash (at least for me it did). So I have taken to numbering all FIRST patrol paths without a path label. Ie , I donÂ´t number it as the &quot;first&quot; path of the Outcasts. I just label it as the first leg of an unspecified path. As follows: nickname = Zone_SG01_outcasts01 path_label = outcasts_01, 1 That seems to work every time. If you have a SECOND outcast patrol, then you MUST use a path identifier for the second path (but not the first): nickname = Zone_SG01_outcasts_02_01 path_label = outcasts_02, 1 I ASSUME that if you DO have more than one path existing, you CAN label the first path as such, but thereÂ´s no real point in it. YOU know it is the first path because it has no specifier the way the others do. If someone can affirm or deny that for the group please do so. It is just something I noted along the way while making dozens of patrols over and over. IÂ´ve had a lot of practice now because I didnÂ´t like the way many of my patrols behaved, so I remade them <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Thanks again BL-Winter. Please let us know when your tool is available. <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> LightRogue Edited by - LightRogue on 5/2/2004 10:02:01 AM

Done <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> you can get the TLCalc V2 <A href=Â´http://home.arcor.de/ben-l/TLCalc/TLCalcV2.exeÂ´ Target=_Blank>here</a> and itÂ´s 8 kb smaller than the old one (woohoo <img src=smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle>) please DL it and tell me if there are any problems, or if values are wrong btw, iÂ´m creating my patrol paths with another tool i made <img src=smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> you can get it <A href=Â´http://home.arcor.de/ben-l/TLCalc/FLPC.exeÂ´ Target=_Blank>here</a>

Wow BL-Winter, youÂ´re a hero!! <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Thanks a lot! I will try the programs as soon as I have finished re-ids-ing the factionsÂ´ short names in my mod, as Chips poinnted out in another thread. (Damned, &#205; wish I had the financial freedom to just quit my job. Got so much to do yet to my mod, that I wonder if it will be finished before Mankind actually colonizes the Sirius sector <img src=smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> ) LightRogue, your first point ( &quot;<i>tons of patrols all over the place, and still VERY FEW tradelane disruptions </i>&quot; ) is in accordance to my observations. I havenÂ´t yet made more paths, and IÂ´m glad I didnÂ´t because now I can use the sweet fruits of your investigations <i>and </i> of BLÂ´s Path Calculator. Your second point is just slightly beyond the horizon of my knowledge of this matter, but I think this horizon will expand in the near future while creating more paths. Btw, this forum is great! Edited by - moonhead on 5/2/2004 11:14:04 AM

<font size=1 face="trebuchet ms"><BLOCKQUOTE><hr size=1 noshade>nickname = Zone_SG01_outcasts01 path_label = outcasts_01, 1 That seems to work every time. If you have a SECOND outcast patrol, then you MUST use a path identifier for the second path (but not the first): nickname = Zone_SG01_outcasts_02_01 path_label = outcasts_02, 1 <hr size=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face=Â´trebuchet ms, Verdana, Arial, HelveticaÂ´ size=2> Nicknames are really not that important. As long as theyÂ´re all unique, it doesnÂ´t matter how you name your paths, since FL only uses them for internal reference (ie. as system object identifiers, which can have any value). You could literally assign nonsensical names like &quot;blablabla1&quot;, blablabla2&quot;, &quot;blablabla3&quot; or &quot;yadda1a, yadda1b, yadda1c&quot; to your paths and theyÂ´d work just as well. Similary, a path_label doesnÂ´t need to include any part of the nickname of its respective path, as thatÂ´s just a naming convention. All theyÂ´re required to be is sequential (ie. &quot;zmmzmm1,1&quot; - &quot;zmmzmm1,2&quot; --- &quot;zmmzmmP,1&quot; - &quot;zmmzmmP,2&quot; etc), and FL will string them into a functioning path for you.

Nephilim is right... there is no significance about the nickame and path_label... One thing i noticed about path... I created an attack_patrol path and run fl... now i flew out in space... i traveled to the supposed path, but it doesnÂ´t show up in the nav map... i noticed this thing... sort = 99 &lt;--- this one sort = 76 &lt;--- changed it to this one this is what i changed then my path works right away... it appears in the nav map. now when i looked at li03.ini, this is my test system, an attack_patrol has a sort = 99 and also some trade_path... now other trade_path has a sort = 76 and 74... what is it with this sort thing? Do they control the appearance of paths in certain location of the nav_map? or maybe, this is the thing that really causes the crashes in trade_path and some patrol paths... there are alot of sort types in a system ini file the common ones are... sort = 74 &lt;--- common in trade_paths sort = 76 &lt;--- common in trade_paths sort = 99 &lt;--- common in attack_patrol and some trade_paths sort = 1 &lt;---this is typical in jumholes, bases, planets and the likes.... if there are more please let me know... <font size=1 face="trebuchet ms"><BLOCKQUOTE><hr size=1 noshade><A href=Â´http://www.lancersreactor.orgÂ´ Target=_Blank><img src=Â´http://www.sharemation.com/firebase/Freelancer/FBTSymbol64x64.jpg Â´> a message from firebase...</a> <hr size=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face=Â´trebuchet ms, Verdana, Arial, HelveticaÂ´ size=2>

BL-Winter, As far as I can tell, your programs work fine! Thanks again man. Now, if you ever feel like upgrading, you maybe could give the lane calculator some of the functions of the Path Calculator, so that it also designs the traffic zone for that lane. Of course, it is now already possible to easily calculate that traffic zone with Path Calculator. SunStriker, Platman, Good to address this matter. I also have no idea what these sort values do... And the rotten thing is: they donÂ´Â´t seem to trigger crashes! <img src=smilies/icon_smile_big.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Of course I hate crashes, but at least iÂ´tÂ´s a way to find out that something is incorrect. These sort values apparently are more subtle, and because most traffic is generated random, itÂ´s much harder to find out. The one functioning patrol path IÂ´ve made has <b>sort = 99 </b>, and it functions fine and is visible on the map, although I admit I also have a <b>visit = 1 </b> there, to facilitate an easy researching <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Anyway, thanks for starting up an inventory of sort-values! A quick look into Iw006.ini (just a random system file I picked) reveiled the following values: <i>EDIT: <b>NB </b> This is </i><b>not </b><i> an attempt to create a complete overview. ItÂ´s just some sort values I picked from Iw06.ini, and what zones they are attached to in that system. </i> sort = 1 &lt;-- gate sort = 3, 5 &lt;-- waypoint sort = 6 &lt;-- trade lane sort = 7 &lt;-- gate sort = 8 &lt;-- (non-lootable) asteroid field sort = 9 &lt;-- jump hole sort = 10 &lt;-- base sort = 11 &lt;-- jump hole sort = 12 &lt;-- hole + base sort = 50 &lt;-- ambient pop sort = 96 &lt;-- trade path sort = 99 &lt;-- patrol path sort = 99.500000 &lt;-- gates, clouds, asteroid fields, vignette exclusiosns Sofar, some vague patterns may be seen, like trade lanes always having low values and paths always high ones. But in some cases, like jump gate zones, seem to be able to have any value. Actually this does not give me the slightest clue what this sort-parameter does! SOfar, the safest thing to do in your mod, is to copy the sort-value from a similar situation in the original system files. Platman, The &quot;visit&quot; parameter is relatively simple. I assume the following: 0 = the default value for everything. You have to visit it to see it on your map 1 = Objects will show up on the map, as if youÂ´ve already vsiited them 128 = Objects wonÂ´t show up, even after having visited them, and will be labeled &quot;unknown object&quot; on the radar. not sure about this: 31 = not only visible (coordinates) on the map but also the info is already in the NeuroMap. The property_flags seems to be a way to arrange how something (e.g. an asteroid field) looks like on the nav-map. I havenÂ´t made an inventory of these; sofar IÂ´ve just picked them from items similar to the one I was working on. Edited by - moonhead on 5/3/2004 1:43:28 PM

I <i>think </i> that the sort just defines the order you see all these things on nav map. And I <i>think </i>, that you see objects with a low sort number in the foreground, and the higher the number becomes, the lower is the layer on which you see the objects. So if you want to do a debris field in the middle of a nebula, you have to give the nebula a higher sort number than the debris field, otherwise the field would be under the nebula and you wouldnÂ´t be able to see it. but these are just presumptions, no guarantee that itÂ´s correct <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle>

BL-Winter, ThatÂ´s not a bad idea. But I think itÂ´s not correct, at least not entirely, because many zones arenÂ´t visible at all. Only asteroid fields, nebulaÂ´s and paths are visible, but population zones and tradelane traffic zones are not viasible. Nevertheless, I think your idea might have something. because the word &quot;sort&quot; indeed seems to suggest a sequence, or at least a categorization. EDIT: Yet, with no better explanation, it canÂ´t hurt to take your idea seriuosly (meaning, I will treat the &quot;sort&quot; parameters in my mod according to your theory). Edited by - moonhead on 5/3/2004 7:16:06 AM

ThatÂ´s right, some zones arenÂ´t visible. But they would need a Â´<b>property_flags = &gt;some number&lt; </b>Â´-tag to be visible on nav map. That tag defines the image which is put over the shape of that zone on nav map. Edited by - BL-Winter on 5/3/2004 7:36:02 AM

Wow! This thread is really hopping now! BL-Winter: Downloaded BOTH of your programs! Thank you so very much for both! You da man! Group: In many ways I get the feeling I am a rookie here. You guys are sometimes WAY over my head. I have a very complete large system with virtually everything I have set out to do working. No crashes. Many bases, tradelanes, encounters, fields, patrols, etc. IÂ´ve made it all work. My system has planets that have moons! (Looks great!) I guess what I am trying to say is that I want to help with this, but I am not sure I am qualified, so bear with me if I say something stupid and correct me when I am wrong. By the way, thank you for the clarification on that path naming issue. It may seem a small thing, but knowing that there are really only two critical attributes to the path name really helps things. It makes it clear to me now that it was never my path names that caused crashes. Those were always unique, and always sequential. It makes it even more evident that it was the lack of access to a jump portal that caused the crashes. Little tidbits like that are....well, little. Seemingly uninportant, but they help to define the answers we seek. This &quot;sort&quot; issue is something I thought everyone understood. Maybe IÂ´m not as far behind as I thought <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> I donÂ´t have the answers either, but some very interesting points have come up in this discussion that will possibly solve a problem I am having. You see, I have asteroid fields buried deep inside of nebulas, and in my own opinion, those fields should NOT be visible from outside of the nebula. It looks really stupid to suddenly see a wall of glowing asteroids that you KNOW is buried deep inside the nebula. I donÂ´t mind seeing them when I get IN the nebula, but I didnÂ´t want to see them from outside. It looks okay in one of my nebulas, but the other three just look goofy that way. So now I will experiment with the sort numbers and see what I can come up with to &quot;hide&quot; my asteroids under the nebula. If this is indeed the official &quot;use&quot; of the SORT value, then it makes sense that there are multiple numbers. For example I have two fields that make up each asteroid field. One has the billboards and dynamic asteroids, and the other has more billboards (to thicken up the field) and more dynamic asteroids......but these asteroids are minable! I have also used this to place multiple loot in a single field. For example, you can mine Boron and Berylium in one of my fields. And my Debris field yields both high temp alloys and scrap metal. These multiple sort values may have a practical use in such situations...... This has turned into a very informative and perhaps even ground-breaking thread! Thanks to everyone who is participating and adding their knowledge. Now here is where my ignorance really shows: I didnÂ´t know that patrol paths showed up in the nav maps at all. How do you make them show up? And WHY would they? A patrol path is not a physical thing. ItÂ´s just an origin and a destination point. And an enemyÂ´s patrol paths should most definately NOT show up in your nav map! Established paths, like trade routes might theoretically be programmed into a network so that you can see them on a map......interesting again! Moonhead, you left off sort types 74 and 76. IÂ´ve seen sort 76 used in examples (posted in this forum) for assault patrol paths, but all of the ones I looked at in the game were sort 99. If the higher values mean something is a lot less visible, then this would indeed support my view that assault patrol paths are NOT supposed to be seen. But again, this is just speculation. I would be interested to learn if type 76 was inadvertantly used by someone editing their game, or whether anyone has seen it used OFFICIALLY on an assault patrol. It may be that it was never intended to be used for assault patrols, and possibly type 76 and 74 were made exclusively for trade paths. Has anyone checked to see if their crashing trade paths accidentally got labelled with sort 99? I am beginning to see some interesting possibilities for trade paths. As I said earlier in this thread, I donÂ´t entirely understand what purpose they serve, other than to create some traffic in the game (which can alternatively be done with pop zones). But Steve or somebody mentioned that he occasionally listens in on trade traffic to see what goods are going to which bases, for shopping convenience, or even practical pirating 101! That sparks my interest! Well, lets keep the info coming folks. This has turned out to be the best place in town to pick up new information! Thanks to all! LightRogue Edited by - LightRogue on 5/3/2004 8:28:54 AM

Hmmm....property flags. IÂ´ve been looking through my own system ini file and found some interesting discrepancies. For example, the only zone that matches the sort values you guys have listed is my debris field. It is sort 20. Most of my tradelane traffic zones are sort 3 and my exlusion zones are all 99.5... My jumpgates, bases, tradelane rings, planets and other physical objects have no &quot;sort&quot; values. Only the associated death zones, pop zones and gate zones have sort values. My non-lootable asteroids have a sort value of 20 and my lootable fields have a sort value of 25. My nebulas all have a sort value of 1. These values, however, all came from examples posted in these forums. In many of those tutorials, the values for sort, visit and property flags are very arbitrarily chosen, which has some significance to what I said earlier in this thread about tutorials being highly incomplete. Only now are we finding that these values may actually be important in some ways. I obviously need to go back through a few of the game systems and pluck out some values that match objects and types that I am using in my own system. I can see now that the values from the tutorials are very mismatched. I havenÂ´t had any NOTEWORTHY problems (like crashes) with these values, but they may be doing things that werenÂ´t intended (like the way things display on the nav map, or the way they show up through other objects. And as somebody pointed out, trade_paths are so fussy that something simple like an incorrect sort value may be causing crashes or other problems. I have to second MoonheadÂ´s comment about being financially secure enough to quit my job! LOL! WouldnÂ´t we all just love to spend all of our time here discussing the marvels of higher editing functions, and working on our systems! Just a follow-up here: BL-Winter, both of your tools work marvelously in XP! Thanks a bazillion for both of these great little tools. I love both of them and have been playing with them for the last hour. Very nice! from all of my own calculations, these output all of the correct values. LightRogue Edited by - LightRogue on 5/3/2004 9:53:19 AM

BL-Winter million thanks for your programs. Both are working fine and they are REALLY useful&#8230; Moonhead thanks a lot man for the explanations. I&#8217;ll check them and I&#8217;ll come back with more infos&#8230;