Ever since the beginning, it's been a huge disinformation campaign
instigated by IBM and Sun (so much so that they pay people to blog
negatively against OOXML.

Of course a huge percentage of the geek population is so contrarian that
they will take up any cause that seems to be an underdog.

I liken this to the "apparent" huge grass roots support for Ron Paul, which
simply didn not translate into real votes. But if you looked anywhere like
Digg, Slashdot, or Groklaw, it would seem there was an overwelming majority
of people that supported him.

In reality, it was a bunch of people in an echo chamber hearing their own
words coming back at them as support for their opinion (Roy seems to live
in such an environment). The real world, including most of the ISO
participants did not swallow the red pill.

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

* Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
> In reality, it was a bunch of people in an echo chamber hearing their own
> words coming back at them as support for their opinion (Roy seems to live
> in such an environment). The real world, including most of the ISO
> participants did not swallow the red pill.

The official announcement of its overwhelming ratification
is tomorrow; the vote was unanimous. The general
commentary was that it was clearly a superior standard
to ODF.

The holdouts did not see its superiority until the last
minute, as Microsoft put together a slick addendum,
together with a reference implementation of OOXML that
is already in production (from last Patch Tuesday, as it
turned out).

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:59:34 -0400, Linonut wrote:
> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> In reality, it was a bunch of people in an echo chamber hearing their own
>> words coming back at them as support for their opinion (Roy seems to live
>> in such an environment). The real world, including most of the ISO
>> participants did not swallow the red pill.
>
> http://www.groklaw.com/
>
> Expect a 2nd Official Complaint -- Against UK's OOXML Vote , 01:50 PM

I imagine there will be a lot of people complaining. People who don't get
their way tend to do that. A complaint != a reversal.
> The France Shift From No to Abstain -- HP helped Microsoft France do it, 09:46 PM

Again, people not getting their way. Trying to get the vote annulled after
the fact is like trying to file for a tax extension after the fact.
> New Zealand Votes No; Malaysia Tech Recommends No but It Abstains Anyway: Australia Abstains; India Suggests, Monday 04:50 AM

The technical committess, in most cases, had no power to affect this vote.
See the DIN's statement about how everyone saying nasty things about them
on the internet are wrong.

It's largely people misrepresenting the procedures and claiming that votes
for different things are votes for or against OOXML.
> OOXML Vote: Irregularities in Germany & Croatia and a Call for an Investigation of Norway, Saturday 02:03 PM

Yup, more whiners from people that really don't understand the processes.
> What Really Happened at the BRM for OOXML & Who Attended - Updates on Results, Friday 09:30 AM

Again, people misrepresenting (or rather telling only part of the story).
> You're dazed, Erik.

These loons still grasp at IBM as the holy grail for Linux.
Little do they know that they are making a pact with the devil and this
devil is far worse than anything Microsoft could ever dream up.

They will see.
They will.
But they will never learn.
> Of course a huge percentage of the geek population is so contrarian that
> they will take up any cause that seems to be an underdog.

See digg and the huge number of diggs the anti OOXML posts are getting.
Hell, even Schestowitz has finally brought his rating out of the sewer with
a couple of "hanger on" anti-OOXML posts.

Schestowitz is like groupie in this respect.

> I liken this to the "apparent" huge grass roots support for Ron Paul, which
> simply didn not translate into real votes. But if you looked anywhere like
> Digg, Slashdot, or Groklaw, it would seem there was an overwelming majority
> of people that supported him.

Another nutball.

Would you want his finger on the button?
> In reality, it was a bunch of people in an echo chamber hearing their own
> words coming back at them as support for their opinion (Roy seems to live
> in such an environment). The real world, including most of the ISO
> participants did not swallow the red pill.

Schestowitz lives in an anechoic chamber where he listens to himself, and
only himself, 24x7.

Real standards, chosen without stacking the deck, without coercion and
with honesty are good.

I guess that lets Microsoft out.

--
Rick

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

* Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:59:34 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>
>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> In reality, it was a bunch of people in an echo chamber hearing their own
>>> words coming back at them as support for their opinion (Roy seems to live
>>> in such an environment). The real world, including most of the ISO
>>> participants did not swallow the red pill.
>>
>> http://www.groklaw.com/
>>
>> Expect a 2nd Official Complaint -- Against UK's OOXML Vote , 01:50 PM
>
> I imagine there will be a lot of people complaining. People who don't get
> their way tend to do that. A complaint != a reversal.
>
>> The France Shift From No to Abstain -- HP helped Microsoft France do it, 09:46 PM
>
> Even if true, so what? Companies aren't allowed to make their views known?
>
>> Formal Protest Filed Asking that Norway's Vote Be Annulled & KEI Statement, Monday 02:47 PM
>
> Again, people not getting their way. Trying to get the vote annulled after
> the fact is like trying to file for a tax extension after the fact.
>
>> New Zealand Votes No; Malaysia Tech Recommends No but It Abstains Anyway: Australia Abstains; India Suggests, Monday 04:50 AM
>
> The technical committess, in most cases, had no power to affect this vote.
> See the DIN's statement about how everyone saying nasty things about them
> on the internet are wrong.
>
> It's largely people misrepresenting the procedures and claiming that votes
> for different things are votes for or against OOXML.
>
>> OOXML Vote: Irregularities in Germany & Croatia and a Call for an Investigation of Norway, Saturday 02:03 PM
>
> Yup, more whiners from people that really don't understand the processes.
>
>> What Really Happened at the BRM for OOXML & Who Attended - Updates on Results, Friday 09:30 AM
>
> Again, people misrepresenting (or rather telling only part of the story).
>
>> You're dazed, Erik.
>
> No, you're ignorant.

I'll let your statements stand for themselves.

You must be reading much different material from what I've seen.

--
The finest pieces of software are those where one individual has a complete
sense of exactly how the program works. To have that, you have to really
love the program and concentrate on keeping it simple, to an incredible
degree.
-- Bill Gates

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

Linonut writes:
> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:59:34 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>>
>>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>
>>>> In reality, it was a bunch of people in an echo chamber hearing their own
>>>> words coming back at them as support for their opinion (Roy seems to live
>>>> in such an environment). The real world, including most of the ISO
>>>> participants did not swallow the red pill.
>>>
>>> http://www.groklaw.com/
>>>
>>> Expect a 2nd Official Complaint -- Against UK's OOXML Vote , 01:50 PM
>>
>> I imagine there will be a lot of people complaining. People who don't get
>> their way tend to do that. A complaint != a reversal.
>>
>>> The France Shift From No to Abstain -- HP helped Microsoft France do it, 09:46 PM
>>
>> Even if true, so what? Companies aren't allowed to make their views known?
>>
>>> Formal Protest Filed Asking that Norway's Vote Be Annulled & KEI Statement, Monday 02:47 PM
>>
>> Again, people not getting their way. Trying to get the vote annulled after
>> the fact is like trying to file for a tax extension after the fact.
>>
>>> New Zealand Votes No; Malaysia Tech Recommends No but It Abstains Anyway: Australia Abstains; India Suggests, Monday 04:50 AM
>>
>> The technical committess, in most cases, had no power to affect this vote.
>> See the DIN's statement about how everyone saying nasty things about them
>> on the internet are wrong.
>>
>> It's largely people misrepresenting the procedures and claiming that votes
>> for different things are votes for or against OOXML.
>>
>>> OOXML Vote: Irregularities in Germany & Croatia and a Call for an Investigation of Norway, Saturday 02:03 PM
>>
>> Yup, more whiners from people that really don't understand the processes.
>>
>>> What Really Happened at the BRM for OOXML & Who Attended - Updates on Results, Friday 09:30 AM
>>
>> Again, people misrepresenting (or rather telling only part of the story).
>>
>>> You're dazed, Erik.
>>
>> No, you're ignorant.
>
> I'll let your statements stand for themselves.
>
> You must be reading much different material from what I've seen.

What (titter) "material" have YOU seen Liarnut? Links please.#

--
"Its obvious Micoshaft sponsored frauds and net stalkers are now attacking individuals directly in organised gangs in linux advocacy newsgroups as predicted since it is known micoshaft is failing in the market place."
7, COLA Linux "advocate" and nutjob.

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:12:23 -0400, Linonut wrote:
> Nice graphic. I truly wonder what caused Erik to go down what seems to
> be a lifelong path of unconditional support for just about everything
> Microsoft does.

I don't support everything Microsoft does. But there are times when people
just can't seem to see when they're being manipulated, and I hate to say
it, but you're fallen hook, line and sinker.

Certainly Microsoft has been aggressive on this, but IBM and Sun have been
far more aggresstive and done a lot more to "corrupt" things than Microsoft
could have.
> Anyway, after reading about how many technical groups were basically
> overruled, I think that Microsoft's outrageous shenanigans are only part
> of the reason for the quixotic process and quixotic vote changes.

No, what you're reading about is where the process is being misrepresented.
People are upset because, by the rules of the various NB's, they aren't
getting their way.

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

In article <6mwk0u4wrkk3.dlg@funkenbusch.com>,
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> I liken this to the "apparent" huge grass roots support for Ron Paul, which
> simply didn not translate into real votes. But if you looked anywhere like
> Digg, Slashdot, or Groklaw, it would seem there was an overwelming majority
> of people that supported him.

Actually, Digg users pretty quickly got tired of all the Ron Paul spam,
and started burying it. Digg gives more weight to buries than to diggs,
so it would quickly stop moving, and rarely make the front page.

The Ron Paul supporters started screaming about how the Neocons had
clearly gotten to Kevin Rose, and Digg was censoring them in order to
promote all the other, CFR member, candidates, yadda yadda yadda, and
largely moved to Reddit.

By the time the Reddit users succeeded in largely laughing at them so
much they were ready to run away, even the most disconnected from
reality of them were starting to realize that no, it is not going to be
a brokered convention that will let Ron Paul turn his mighty 14
delegates into a win, and they pretty much faded away.

What was interesting about the Paul crowd is how many of them were
ignorant of his positions and policies. They went on and on about
freedom and the Constitution, yet Ron Paul has twice now tried to get
this bill passed:

which basically tries to make it so large parts of the First Amendment
no longer restrict State power. So, for example, if Utah wanted to make
Mormonism the State religion, it would *NOT* be a First Amendment
violation. If Texas wanted to start enforcing the provision in its
Constitution that prohibits atheists, Buddhists, and others that do not
believe in a Supreme Being, from holding public office--no problem.

You'd think someone who is pushing a candidate because the supporter
thinks we need to better obey the Constitution would at least be aware
that said candidate has tried, twice, to use a loophole in the law to
anally rape the Constitution. But no, most of Paul's supporters on the
net had no idea about that bill.

Based on their postings, it seems most hadn't *read* anything about
Paul. Their postings were mostly links to videos. So, they'd post a
story about some allegedly great thing Ron Paul said that we *must* see
if we care about Freedom, the future of our country, etc...and it is a
link to a 20 minute video on Youtube, most of which is narration telling
us how great Ron Paul is, with text telling us the same thing (and using
every cheesy transition and effect that came with whatever program was
used to edit the video...). Somewhere in there, there will be a small
amount of Ron Paul actually giving a speech that includes the point that
the story is supposed to be about.

Compare this to the posts at the same time from Obama supporters. He'd
say something cool in a speech, and his supporters would post a story
about it. Their story would link to a transcript of the speech. So,
you could actually, quickly, read it, and get a grasp of the substance
of it. You could easily see all his points, and open another window to
go check them out.

I pointed this difference out on Digg to the Paul supporters, noting
that the Obama people posted useful links, and got dugg up. The
anti-Obama people didn't bury them, because whether you were for or
against Obama, his supporters posted useful stories, compared to useless
videos that made it hard and annoying to get the message, and suggested
that the Paul supporters could learn a lesson from the Obama supports.

My comment got dugg up something like 300 times, which goes to show how
annoyed Digg users had become with the Paul supporters by then. :-)

Apparently, only some companies are supposed to voice their opinion.
IBM is on the allowed list, but HP isn't.

....
> > OOXML Vote: Irregularities in Germany & Croatia and a Call for an
> > Investigation of Norway, Saturday 02:03 PM
>
> Yup, more whiners from people that really don't understand the processes.

The Germans have released a statement pointing out the errors in the
reports of irregularities with their vote.

--
--Tim Smith

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

* Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:12:23 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>
>> Nice graphic. I truly wonder what caused Erik to go down what seems to
>> be a lifelong path of unconditional support for just about everything
>> Microsoft does.
>
> I don't support everything Microsoft does. But there are times when people
> just can't seem to see when they're being manipulated, and I hate to say
> it, but you're fallen hook, line and sinker.

Bull****.

Show me the articles.
> Certainly Microsoft has been aggressive on this, but IBM and Sun have been
> far more aggresstive and done a lot more to "corrupt" things than Microsoft
> could have.

Bull****.

Show me the articles.
>> Anyway, after reading about how many technical groups were basically
>> overruled, I think that Microsoft's outrageous shenanigans are only part
>> of the reason for the quixotic process and quixotic vote changes.
>
> No, what you're reading about is where the process is being misrepresented.
> People are upset because, by the rules of the various NB's, they aren't
> getting their way.

I guess they don't have government of, by, and for the People like we do
here, then.

But I'm sure you can find justification for ramming a large, apparently
very flawed, vendor-specific, standards document through a fast-track
process whereby (like Massachusetts) government personnel deliberately
go against the recommendations of their technical committees.

--
Gary Kildall was one of the original pioneers of the PC revolution. He was a
very creative computer scientist who did excellent work. Although we were
competitors, I always had tremendous respect for his contributions to the PC
industry. His untimely death was very unfortunate and he and his work will
be missed.
-- Bill Gates, The Computer Chronicles. "Special Edition: Gary Kildall." 1995

Re: OOXML should *NOT* be approved as ISO standard!!!

Linonut writes:
> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 21:12:23 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>>
>>> Nice graphic. I truly wonder what caused Erik to go down what seems to
>>> be a lifelong path of unconditional support for just about everything
>>> Microsoft does.
>>
>> I don't support everything Microsoft does. But there are times when people
>> just can't seem to see when they're being manipulated, and I hate to say
>> it, but you're fallen hook, line and sinker.
>
> Bull****.
>
> Show me the articles.
>
>> Certainly Microsoft has been aggressive on this, but IBM and Sun have been
>> far more aggresstive and done a lot more to "corrupt" things than Microsoft
>> could have.
>
> Bull****.
>
> Show me the articles.

The Liarnut tactic ladies and gentlemen. Make things up, refuse to
provide links and then demand links from people who have ALREADY done
so.