University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

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Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

Originally Posted by Roadvirus

When we kill civilians, it's by accident....

When we kill civilians, it's a death in the name of war. We also know, without question, that our weaponry is nowhere near precise enough, nor our intelligence good enough, to avoid killing civilians while waging war. Anyone who participates in drone strikes, in any way shape or form, has an obligation to recognize that we are making a deliberate decision that results in the deaths of civilians -- even though the public does not know for sure how many civilians have died in US drone attacks.

We also spent decades intentionally targeting civilians. Carpet-bombing Vietnam and Cambodia were not accidents. Firebombing Dresden was not an accident. Nuking Hiroshima was not an accident. The whole targeted bombing thing is brand spanking new.

The people on the ground also don't give a **** that it was an accident. What they know is that their loved ones and friends and neighbors were killed by the US military. Neither would you, if someone you loved was killed by a drone strike against a terrorist that accidentally hit the wrong location.

Jihadists target civilians on purpose. Suicide bombs are not precision weapons. They are used for shock value.

First, there is no reason to limit this particular tangent to jihadis. Terrorism is a tactic, and pretty much everyone uses it. The IRA and its affiliated groups (all Catholic, attacking Protestant and British/UK forces) selected civilian targets. Israel waged a guerrilla war on the English in Palestine; today, it often demolishes buildings that belonged to Palestinian militants, tortures captured militants, assassinates others. Baader Meinhof/RAF (left-wing socialist revolutionary terrorist group) robbed banks with plans to attack non-military targets. Tim McVeigh (right-wing, Christian) chose a non-military target which happened to have a day care center. Numerous right-wing dictators, with a wink and a nod (or outright support) from the US government used death squads that attacked civilian troublemakers.

Second, there is little doubt we're using drone attacks not just because it carries no physical risk for the pilots, but also for shock value. It'd be foolish to think that a high-precision drone strike, even one that kills no civilians, is a shocking event that sends a message to everyone in the area.

Third, yes there is no question that terrorists often pick soft targets and civilians to make a big splash. That's one reason why terrorism is unethical. But if that's our standard, then we should also call out the US for the many times when it does know its actions will kill civilians, including in drone attacks.

Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

Originally Posted by Visbek

When we kill civilians, it's a death in the name of war. We also know, without question, that our weaponry is nowhere near precise enough, nor our intelligence good enough, to avoid killing civilians while waging war. Anyone who participates in drone strikes, in any way shape or form, has an obligation to recognize that we are making a deliberate decision that results in the deaths of civilians -- even though the public does not know for sure how many civilians have died in US drone attacks.

We also spent decades intentionally targeting civilians. Carpet-bombing Vietnam and Cambodia were not accidents. Firebombing Dresden was not an accident. Nuking Hiroshima was not an accident. The whole targeted bombing thing is brand spanking new.

The people on the ground also don't give a **** that it was an accident. What they know is that their loved ones and friends and neighbors were killed by the US military. Neither would you, if someone you loved was killed by a drone strike against a terrorist that accidentally hit the wrong location.

First, there is no reason to limit this particular tangent to jihadis. Terrorism is a tactic, and pretty much everyone uses it. The IRA and its affiliated groups (all Catholic, attacking Protestant and British/UK forces) selected civilian targets. Israel waged a guerrilla war on the English in Palestine; today, it often demolishes buildings that belonged to Palestinian militants, tortures captured militants, assassinates others. Baader Meinhof/RAF (left-wing socialist revolutionary terrorist group) robbed banks with plans to attack non-military targets. Tim McVeigh (right-wing, Christian) chose a non-military target which happened to have a day care center. Numerous right-wing dictators, with a wink and a nod (or outright support) from the US government used death squads that attacked civilian troublemakers.

Second, there is little doubt we're using drone attacks not just because it carries no physical risk for the pilots, but also for shock value. It'd be foolish to think that a high-precision drone strike, even one that kills no civilians, is a shocking event that sends a message to everyone in the area.

Third, yes there is no question that terrorists often pick soft targets and civilians to make a big splash. That's one reason why terrorism is unethical. But if that's our standard, then we should also call out the US for the many times when it does know its actions will kill civilians, including in drone attacks.

Drone strikes threaten 50 years of international law, says UN rapporteurUS policy of using drone strikes to carry out targeted killings 'may encourage other states to flout international law'