Chat Transcript:
October 15th 2000Checking
out Electronic Literature

Chris has been a librarian for 10 years and is the head of continuing
education for the Central Kansas Library System. Libraries have
always been pivotal in introducing literature and maintaining
a place for readers to explore new ideas. How can libraries continue
to provide access to electronic media?

How can libraries introduce this new technology to the public?

How can e-books improve library service? What must requirements
must e-book technology meet for libraries to use e-books?

How can we get this literature into everyone's hands?

How can libraries introduce this new technology to the public?

How can electronic literature improve library service?

What must requirements must e-book technology meet for libraries
to use e-books?

BadWine
says, "Though I have been told that libraries purchased hypertext
literature during the 1980s, I believe little of this literature
left the building."

Deena
says, "Were any of the hypertexts used in the building?"

BadWine
says, "That is to say that libraries are not very involved in
promoting electronic literature at this time. However, I think
the 1998 introduction of hand-held readers may change that.
At this time at least 30 libraries are circulating hand-held
electronic readers. Mostly Rocket eBooks."

guest
arrives.

Deena
says, "Hi Guest, we are chatting with Chris Rippel about checking
out ebooks in libraries."

BadWine
says, "Librarians are waking up to the fact that electronic
books may appear in their lifetimes."

Deena
says, "How are they circulating hand held readers?"

>>
guest is now known as KLynB.

BadWine
says, "Librarians are circulating hand-held readers by loading
a fixed set of titles on them and checking them out to their
patrons."

Deena
says, "How have patrons received this?"

BadWine
says, "They seem pretty popular, but the evidence is unclear
to me."

Deena
says, "How have library administrators seen eBooks?"

Waterfall_Guest
arrives from trAce

Deena
says, "Cheryl, Taylor, have you guys worked with ereaders?"

szcz
arrives.

Deena
says, "Hi, we are talking about electronic readers and checking
them out from libraries."

Taylor
says, "It was discussed in a library where I worked until three
weeks ago. Silicon Valley California!"

Deena
says, "Have you held readers?"

Cheryl
says, "I've seen one, but I haven't really worked with them,
other than the rocket ebook reader for your computer. I use
the dictionary out of that."

Deena
wonders what happened three weeks ago and if she should offer
sympathy or congrats.

BadWine
says, "I have read with a Rocket
eBook and Palm
Pilot. I have not personally circulated them in a library."

Deena says, "You can press look to get rid of the URL on the
right, or you can share more URLS by typing @http://whatever"

Deena
says, "What do you guys see as the future role of libraries
in electronic books?"

Floyd
says, "Possibly a room full of servers."

Taylor
says, "I need clarification. Does e-literature refer to both
e-books on hand-held devices AND literature online with multiple
links like Deena's
novel?"

Deena
says, "Good point Taylor. In fact, there are a LOT more works
than are covered in palms, ereaders, etc. My work can be seen
on some ereaders, but is best viewed on a computer. Other hypertexts,
such as those from Eastgate
Systems are actually on disks and you buy them like traditional
books, put them in one computer like traditional software."

Deena
says, "Eliterature is changing rapidly!"

KLynB
says, "Is reading software available for the Newton?"

BadWine
says, "I have never heard of reading software for the Newton."

Deena
says, "But, given that the media is SO fluid, how can libraries
help people gain access to it?"

Ercy
arrives.

Deena
says, "Hi Ercy, we are talking about libraries and what they
can do to help get access to electronic literature."

Deena
says, "One thing I was thinking about--most libraries have
access to the internet, and there are many works that can be
either downloaded from sites or viewed online. Have libraries
used the Internet to promote literature?"

BadWine
says, "Libraries have used Internet to promote paper books,
but not eliterature."

Floyd
says, "I think it would be nice to see libraries start providing
access to palm type computers and Rocket eBooks and the like."

BadWine
says, "Most librarians have never heard of eliterature because
most patrons have never heard of eliterature and don't ask for
it."

KLynB
says, "In this political climate, many librarians may not think
it prudent to support eliterature."

Deena
says, "Chris, how can we educate libraries?"

Deena
says, "KLynB, what would help entice libraries to see it as
prudent?"

BadWine
says, "By talking to librarians and walking into libraries and
asking them for eliterature. Build demand."

MikeS
quietly enters.

Deena
says, "Hi Mike, we are trying to figure out ways to build demand
for electronic literature, so libraries know about them."

Floyd
says, "I recently saw a news story where a school in Illinois
was promoting student use of palm pilots, I believe they issued
them to the students."

KLynB
says, "Unfortunately, with the pseudo-scandals re: children
accessing adult materials, it may be better to lay low...?"

BadWine
says, "I am not sure, but they have software librarians can
use to check out Glassbooks."

BadWine
says, "Yes Adobe bought Glassbook."

Deena
says, "How can libraries determine the best things to get--even
with a two year survey?"

Scott
Rettberg says, "It's amazing how quickly this whole field
is changing and bifurcating."

BadWine
says, "To return to Gemstar. Gemstar recently announced their
initiative to promote their product. In an eBooknet.com article"

Deena
says, "Yes, given the linear books on readers, the hypertext
on the web and elsewhere and other software, how can we educate
libraries to determine what they should get with their limited
resources?"

Scott
Rettberg says, "Gemstar has some pretty ambitious (and on the
surface at least) pretty proprietary plans for the ebook industry."

BadWine
says, "Yes"

Floyd
says, "I think there should be a generic standard for e-books
so it will not become platform dependent."

Deena
says, "These are recent developments. Scott, can you fill us
in?"

Cheryl
says, "That's surprising about the proprietary manner of
Gemstar, since everyone else seems to try to be coordinating
efforts..."

Deena
says, "Chris, what will this mean for ereaders in libraries?"

Deena
says, "Floyd, the Open
Ebook Forum was attempting to provide a standard, . Has
anyone heard from them lately?"

BadWine
says, "Standards would help libraries promote eBooks more efficiently."

Deena
says, "How can we let libraries know what to buy with their
limited funds? Where do libraries go for this information?"

Cheryl
says, "What is sad is I had to de-subscribe from all my e-book
listservs because I had too many other avenues of HT and multimedia
to focus on. So much information!!"

Scott
Rettberg says, "Well, the distribution for one -- if you want
to get an ebook title usable on the new Gemstar ebook, you need
to go through the Gemstar server."

Deena
says, "Yes, Cheryl, and if we are getting too much, then what
are libraries, who aren't familiar with this getting?"

Everdeen
says, "Yes that is a challenge. I was a law librarian back in
the 1980's and we used Lexis
and Westlaw
and Dialog
and participated in focus groups at West Publishing aobut how
to market CDs."

Deena
says, "Elizabeth, Taylor, others in the field, how would you
inform your libraries about this?"

Elizabeth
says, "Yes I will. I need to find out more myself, but I certainly
will pass it back."

Deena
says, "So Everdeen, you were connected then. What were your
results?"

Everdeen
says, "The cost dynamics etc. have changed a lot since
then. So a lot of my experience is ancient history."

Taylor
says, "I'm not at a library any more, but I'll be teaching lib
students. This will be a great topic of conversation for my
course."

Deena
says, "Elizabeth, who would you pass it back to? If ELO or others
were to target libraries to distribute media, who would they
contact?"

Taylor
says, "I'm not a librarian, by the way."

cheryl
[to Everdeen]: but still important.

Everdeen
says, "Taylor, pardon me, (I was late) but what sort of course
and what do you do?"

Elizabeth
says, "I work in a library with a specific subject area, art
& design, plus an interest in The Book and a collection
of artists' books...so ebooks fit in a lot of different ways.
Perhaps I can talk to you email first."

Taylor
says, "Change management - distance ed. starting in the Spring.
It will be a first for me. I've already starting influencing
(infecting?) the next generation with literacy courses."

Deena
says, "Taylor, you will be reaching lots of future librarians.
That is great!"

Everdeen
says, "Taylor, how interesting. In what department does that
fall?"

Taylor
says, "Or publishing articles?"

Deena
says, "Maybe that is the way to influence libraries, through
the next generation of librarians. I think we have shown in
this conversation that we need a sea change of attitudes as
well, to get libraries to take a role in promoting new literature
and being a bridge between lit and tech."

Elizabeth
says, "Good question Scott. I'm in England btw."

Deena
says, "Yes, or in publishing articles. How can we get libraries
and librarians to write articles on new media and electronic
literature?"

Everdeen
says, "I remember how difficult it was to get new attorneys
to accept case law as it appeared online."

Cheryl
[to Deena]: That's a start (with new generations) but as we've
seen in composition and technorhet. fields, it takes a long
time for things to happen in this way.

Helen
says, "I'd like to see literature festivals promoting elit as
well as traditional lit (very relevant this week)."

Deena
says, "Everdeen, did you take specific measures to help people
accept online case law?"

cheryl
says, "Not that it SHOULD take a long time to influence librarians
towards ebooks."

Helen
says, "I'm too tired.... been a long day. trAce
went down in the middle of a workshop full of paying attendees."

Helen
says, "Told them about you and the paper maps of hypertext,
Deena, they were really intrigued. I showed them webartery and
Unknown
and Rice
and so on."

Scott
Rettberg says, "You rock Helen."

Deena
says, "Wow. That sounds like a lot!"

Deena
Celebrates Helen's efforts at communicating elit!!

Scott
Rettberg says, "Gemstar is in a way going to be in a position
to arbitrarily establish standards and distribution structures,
since they'll be the first to mass market single purpose devices.
Could be kind of scary."

Everdeen
says, "I was Manager of Library and Information Services at
a law firm. I was responsible for introducing attorneys (of
widely differing years in practice) to the computer and the
databases."

Everdeen
says, "I conducted in-house seminars explaining everything from
how concordances were constructed to the inputting of text in
Korea."

Everdeen
says, "As well as create various point-of-use materials
..."

BadWine
says, "In a pre-conference early this year I collected the minutes
and ideas of libraries."

Deena
says, "Yes, Chris, please share that URL. And maybe conferences
are a good way to network and get this out."

BadWine
says, "I have not posted it up on the web because it is a list.
I could post it but it is very long."

Kristin
arrives from Tower of Babble

Deena
says, "Hi Krisin, we are talking about libraries and how we
can get libraries to understand and value new media."

Deena
plots about getting a small group of librarians together to
spread the word...

Everdeen
says, "Of course at that time, librarians did most of the
specialized searching (Dialog, for instance). So it was not
so different from the user's point of view than any reference/research
question handled by the library staff."

Helen
says, "Elizabeth and I and Sue presented at Digital Resources
for the Humanities last month (Have you mentioned our cool reception
there, E?"

Elizabeth
says, "I hadn't Helen."

Helen
says, "They were more interested in digitising Chaucer than
in making NEW works available."

Deena
says, "So Everdeen, we can work on what is already available
and just expand it?"

Elizabeth
says, "They weren't cool, just few!"

Deena
smacks her head in mistranslations. Cool as in English cold...

Helen
says, "Yes cool [not good]."

Helen
says, "Lots about making catalogues of digital works, but when
I said scholars should review modern elit they said 'why'?"

Deena
says, "Are they reviewing modern lit in paper? Then they should
be willing to review electronic texts, too!"

Scott
Rettberg says, "I think a lot of the work in communicating what's
culturally relevant about electronic literature and electronic
publishing to libraries is a matter of breaking it down -- there's
a big difference between Project Gutenberg, the developing ebook
field, and the best of current electronic lit."

Everdeen
says, "I think one of the important things has been to let library
patrons know *where* and how the information has been obtained...without
overwhelming them, of course."

Deena
says, "That is why we need to promote Gutenberg--and get this
from both ends."

Helen
says, "Oh yes, I would even buy the Chaucer but that's not the
point."

Deena
says, "Good point Everdeen, how can we do that?"

Everdeen
says, "And certainly it is very different in a special library...compared
to a public"

Deena
says, "Helen, this goes back to Taylor's pint about the library
literacy and how libraries see themselves--as bringers of new
stuff or gaurdians of the old."

aphid
quietly enters.

Everdeen
says, "Deena, one of the things I did was to attach a form which
gave a brief listing of the steps taken, sources consulted,
etc. to the material given to the attorneys and legal assistants."

floyd
says, "There are things you can add to existing texts include
commentary and essays on Chaucer for example."

Deena
says, "Hi aphid, we are talking about libraries and how they
can help publics understand and access eliterature."

aphid
says, "Cool."

Everdeen
says, "This form also was useful for us to keep track of
what we used."

Deena
says, "Everdeen, kind of like footnotes that you can look at
if you are interested?"

Everdeen
says, "And then sometimes...*gentle hints* to the users when
presenting them with the results of the request...that individual
instruction could be arranged."

Everdeen
says, "Deena, usually, in part because it was important for
the attorneys also to know the time, effort, and education/training
that went into the research we were doing for them, the form
was actually something clipped to the top of the material...so
they couldn't help but see it!"

Deena
says, "Everdeen, maybe someone would be willing to do that kind
of annotation for ereaders and the mechanical devices as well
as ebooks and hypertexts?"

Scott
Rettberg says, "The new stuff is part of the old stuff
ten years from now."

Elizabeth
says, "Apologies for being late and therefore probably missing
key point -- but were you talking specifically about ebooks
(i.e. device-specific) in libraries, or any electronic works?"

Deena
says, "Good point Elizabeth. Actually I am being bad and mixing
them all up in one bundle, but they really are different things..
So we are talking about all of it, if that is possible."

Scott
Rettberg says, "We should have a big ven diagram."

Scott
Rettberg says, "Of course first we need to check the headlines
to see what's changed in the last week."

Everdeen
says, "I think it is important first for us to be aware of the
process...as we approach a problem...often we just do it by
the routine or instinct and don't realize the steps and how
it might be passed on....especially if we are working long hours
beyond what might be expected."

Deena
says, "Right. It is getting hard to annotate all of this when
it keeps changing. How do we deal with these changes when talking
with libraries?"

Scott
Rettberg says, "I think that interestingly, the electronic literature
side of things is changing more slowly, on a more logical curve,
than is the e publishing world."

Scott
Rettberg says, "The basic distinction I would make is that
electronic literature is lit that couldn't be presented in a
paper form that uses the capabilities of the computer to do
things that authors couldn't do in a bound codex.."

Elizabeth
says, "Oh right, rather than just e-delivery..."

Deena
says, "Elizabeth, I think we are working on the distinction
of can it be translated to print? If not, then it is truly electronic
lit. If so, then it is like an ebook."

Everdeen
says, "Sometimes we get so excited about what is newly available...and
all the bells and whistles that we can play with...that we rush
to present it to users...perhaps not being as aware as we should
be that their tolerance for the slippery changes is lower."

Deena
says, "Tolerance is a key factor."

Scott
Rettberg says, "Not that ebooks could never be capable of those
things. They could."

Elizabeth
says, "Users are ok; it's the middle people. Students come in
saying, Have you got a CD-Rom? They've no idea that content
comes first."

Everdeen
says, "Do we want to hold to a distinction between presentation
say, on a cd-rom versus that of paper?"

BadWine
says, "No."

Deena
says, "Elizabeth, how do we get them to see the content first?"

Everdeen
says, "Ah elizabeth, then are students not users???????"

elizabeth
says, "Whereas librarians do cling to our known sources -- knowing
how much they have to offer still."

Elizabeth
says, "Deena, yes, that is the issue."

Deena
says, "Maybe we need an 'ebooks and eliterature in electrons'
to go with our books in print."

Deena
passes out elit indices etched in silicon

Elizabeth
says, "Certainly so."

Deena
says, "Which would help with the annotation like the ones Everdeen
did."

Scott
Rettberg says, "I think books paper books will have a great
deal to offer for a very long time. These things don't replace
each other the way CDs replaced LPs."

elizabeth
says, "It's still a better idea to start an art research project
with the Grove Dictionary of Art, than on the net, if you are
a student."

runran
arrives from trAce

Deena
says, "Hi runran, we are talking about indices of electronic
books and resources for libraries."

Elizabeth
remembers the Grove Dictionary is online too, now.

Deena
says, "Yes, so many people run for the web first now."

Everdeen
says, "But isn't it best to start with an analysis of the question?"

elizabeth
says, "That was 'compris', Ev!"

Deena
says, "Yes, libraries really have a role in helping find information,
which starts with analyzing the question."

Elizabeth
says, "Afraid I have to leave now -- so sorry, it's really interesting
... I'll check the log."

Scott
Rettberg says, "One of the things I find disheartening
about the current ebook industry is how much the major players
are focused on making everything "like a book." That leaves
so much out of the equation."

Deena
says, "Well, we could go on all day here, but I think we have
reached some conclusions, if I might sum them up. We've said
that we need to work on showing libraries roles in transmitting
eliterature, finding ways to inform libraries even with the
rapid changes, and focusing on what we can show for elit. We
need to develop FAQs and let libraries understand the basics
of eliterature."