The Great Immersion Debate

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I was originally going to post a thread discussing allot of the major criticisms toward the Doom 4 reveal and what I personally agreed and disagreed with, but after reading even further into the Doom 4 discussion thread, I've formally concluded that would create a virtual cluster-fuck in the comments. Therefore, due to my distaste of flame wars, I've decided to narrow it down to one topic; the great immersion debate.

I've seen allot of people upset over how slow the player moves and the level design (even though it was just part of being a demo, but whatever), yet clamor over how immersive the original Doom is. First of all, and I know I'm going to get some hate for this, I personally don't think the original Doom has held up very well in the immersion department.

Yes, I know how revolutionary it was back in 1993, it was amazing for it's time; and I say "was" for a reason. I don't know if it's just me being born in 2001 and not finding out about it until much, much later, but I just don't see what everyone's talking about. How am I supposed to feel immersed when I'm running at 60 miles an hour with low frame animations, midi-death metal playing all the time, and a questionable use of colors and architecture? It doesn't feel like I'm in a demon ridden base, it feels like I'm playing an arcade game! And before you say, "oh, you just care about the graphics, don't you?", I'm going to turn around and say that graphics =/= immersion. Hell, I'm a huge fan of the original Half-Life and even that game's visuals haven't aged well either; however, what it does get right and has always gotten it right is immersion.

One of the biggest reasons I'm not a big fan of classic Doom and don't really see why so many people call it such an atmospheric game is because of the lack of ambient noises. Sure, you have the noise monsters make, but that doesn't mean anything if it's drowned out by bombastic action music playing constantly. Music should be played only when action happens; all of it's emphasis gets thrown out the window when it's blasting all the time. I mean, what's the point of playing such awesome music if all you're doing is going around hallways and corridors looking for items? A game very similar to the likes of Doom, Painkiller, in my opinion was one of the first classic FPSs that got music right. Ambient noises and suspenseful sounds would loop when you were going around searching for items, meaning when the heavy metal finally did kick in, it felt all the more kick ass because it got you in the mood to kill shit. It wasn't just background music, and that's what made it so great.

Another thing I didn't really like about Doom--and I can't believe I'm going to say this right in front of the entire Doom community--is the lack of scripted events or story telling. Okay, okay, I know what you're thinking, yes, I know that when misused, scripted events suck ass, and that I'm crazy for criticizing Doom for such a ridiculous reason; yes, I know that way too many scripted events can ruin a game, just look at Duke Nukem: Forever, that was a horrible game! But, if they're used properly and don't get in the way of the player where you're forced to listen to them, they can be wonderful. For example, let's look at Half-Life (again). In the beginning of the game, right after the experiment goes wrong, you can really tell and begin to understand how fucked the facility really is without the game needing to say a single word or even use a single cut scene. When you see an elevator full of scientists fall to their death, equipment malfunctioning, aliens killing everybody, and a gruesome government cover-up operation, it really makes you feel like you're in a facility that's going to complete hell.

I know you could fire back at me and say "well, Doom doesn't really have much of a story to tell!"; and, quite frankly, you're right. In fact, if you think about it, Half-Life's story is just a glorified version of Doom's story with aliens instead of demons. But that doesn't mean it has to abandon the idea of immersion entirely! Instead, it can also focus on creating a world the player can truly believe he's in. I'm not saying the experience should be told through cut scenes and dialogue, I'm just saying we shouldn't go back to nothing at all.

And that brings me to my conclusion; why go back to nothing when you could have so much more? Quite frankly, I don't think Doom 4 really needs to be an exact copy of the original Doom. I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting an arcade action style gameplay, but that doesn't mean we should just stick to every tradition of the past. We've evolved from primitive set pieces and awkward stage transitions, so why should we go back to them? I mean, just look at what games like Wolfenstein: The New Order and Duke Nukem: Forever 2013 did. They stayed somewhat true to the original formula while also improving and adding upon it's core gameplay elements to create a better experience.

In my opinion, if Doom 4 does the same thing those games managed to do while also making the levels a little bit less linear with faster movement, that's perfectly fine. We should keep moving forward, not be stuck in the past. Those are just my personal thoughts, anyway. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say in the comments, and if anyone else feels the same way I do. Thanks for reading this really long post I needed to get out of my system. - Nanomen

(Edit 8/3/2015 -- After reading this, I'd recommend you read allot of the comments/replies I made on the first page before commenting; I go into allot more detail of what message I was trying to get across, some ideas I have, and another big reason I had to write this thread I forgot to add in the conclusion)

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The fact is, the things that made Doom great back in the day, don't hold a candle to the new shit.

However, what made it so great, was the standard it shattered. No, it's not very ambient compared to [any game after 1999 here]. But, side it next to the games that came out around it. It wasn't just better, as every new game should be. It used concepts that a whole lot of people didn't even think could be applied to a game.

It's that kind creativity, originality, and furthering of the art, that you just don't see at all today. In the past decade, a game hasn't done anything to make anyone go "I didn't know a game could do that!". The games just look better, are a little bigger in size, and for whatever inexcusable reason, are also significantly shorter in playtime to their predecessors.

Now, I for one am stoked as shit for the up coming game. I've made almost $400 in upgrades to my PC to run it, and I'm not done. But, as modern as it is. It has nothing new to offer, whatsoever.

Again, it's not what Doom93 has, that made it the legend it is. It's how everything around it didn't have. And we just don't see that anymore.

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Nah, OP. Doom 1 was dripping with atmosphere. The lack of ambient sounds is because they could only play 8 at a time, so they saved it for important stuff. You need more suspension of disbelief, you're letting arbitrary nitpicks get in the way.

You were walking through dark corridoors with rusty walls, the sounds of monsters all around you, while you struggle to survive. Keep in mind that the way most people play the game now is not how people played it back then for a lack of skill.

Linguica said:

Were you born before or after 9/11/01. This is important.

I fail to see how two buildings collapsing has any effect on one's taste in games.

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Nah, OP. Doom 1 was dripping with atmosphere. The lack of ambient sounds is because they could only play 8 at a time, so they saved it for important stuff. You need more suspension of disbelief, you're letting arbitrary nitpicks get in the way.

You were walking through dark corridoors with rusty walls, the sounds of monsters all around you, while you struggle to survive. Keep in mind that the way most people play the game now is not how people played it back then for a lack of skill.

I fail to see how two buildings collapsing has any effect on one's taste in games.

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Nah, OP. Doom 1 was dripping with atmosphere. The lack of ambient sounds is because they could only play 8 at a time, so they saved it for important stuff. You need more suspension of disbelief, you're letting arbitrary nitpicks get in the way.

You were walking through dark corridoors with rusty walls, the sounds of monsters all around you, while you struggle to survive. Keep in mind that the way most people play the game now is not how people played it back then for a lack of skill.

Well, the thing is, I'm looking at it from a modern stand point, today's standards. I understand id had some limits with sound design due to MSDos's 8 sound channels; and yes, I know the atmosphere originally came from people experiencing something as different as Doom was. I would know that feeling, the first time I played some thing as simple as Lego Star Wars when I was really, really young, I was--believe it or not--terrified of breaking down the first door because there were droids making weird (scary) noises on the other side. Yes, my seven six year old self was scared of Lego Star Wars. I just wrote down what I experienced in my play through of Doom.

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The fact is, the things that made Doom great back in the day, don't hold a candle to the new shit.

However, what made it so great, was the standard it shattered. No, it's not very ambient compared to [any game after 1999 here]. But, side it next to the games that came out around it. It wasn't just better, as every new game should be. It used concepts that a whole lot of people didn't even think could be applied to a game.

It's that kind creativity, originality, and furthering of the art, that you just don't see at all today. In the past decade, a game hasn't done anything to make anyone go "I didn't know a game could do that!". The games just look better, are a little bigger in size, and for whatever inexcusable reason, are also significantly shorter in playtime to their predecessors.

Now, I for one am stoked as shit for the up coming game. I've made almost $400 in upgrades to my PC to run it, and I'm not done. But, as modern as it is. It has nothing new to offer, whatsoever.

Again, it's not what Doom93 has, that made it the legend it is. It's how everything around it didn't have. And we just don't see that anymore.

You know, I've always been mad at fate for making me as young as I am. When I was playing Doom in DOSBox, I was thinking about how amazing it must of been back then to see something as revolutionary as Doom. I'm pretty sad to think I'll never see the same kind of innovation ever again in future games. But, I guess I can't change when I was born ):

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I'm reminded of this gem. YouTube user Balgorg has a lengthy video series on FPS, and in the following video we see clips of titles released between 1992 and 1994. Notice, around the three-and-a-half minute mark, that after a plethora of cartoony, low-octane shooters, Doom comes in and wipes the floor with everyone. This really helps to give context to how Doom was perceived at the time, because everything else was clunky, inoffensive and slow by comparison.

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Your opinions about the music sound like John Carmack's. He once remarked that the Jaguar version of Doom was more effective for him because it lacked music and just had sound. If you haven't tried it (or seen it) look up the PS1/PSX version of Doom, with the more ambient-style audio by Aubrey Hodges. It's a darker, scarier version because of it. It wasn't long after Doom that Id made Quake and deliberately went for a more ambient and serious tone with the graphics and sound, as well.

That said, I think Bobby Prince's music fit the game like a glove and was a large part of the fun. It's silly, just like the Doomguy's head making wacky expressions on the bottom is cartoony and silly. This game wasn't that far removed from Wolfenstein and other 3D games like Blake Stone and Duke Nukem in that way. It was kind of a mix of things.

I don't think story works well with it -- at least it couldn't have in the original. The game is fully "just" a game, in the same way that Solitaire and basketball are "just" games. The levels are frequently maze-like, which doesn't lead itself well to scripted events or story sequences. This even held true with the RPG series Etrian Odyssey, on the DS, when it went back to its Wizardry/Might-and-Magic roots (despite the anime style of its character designs) to deliver a pure maze dungeon hack game, with almost no story or character interaction. Personally I prefer this kind of thing, but it depends how much you just enjoy games as games, for their challenge, rather than for the experiences and storytelling. There was always storytelling games, including RPGs and adventures. Eventually by the late 90s it was becoming increasingly common for mainstream action games to incorporate quite a bit of story and take it more seriously. Now it is the norm.

As far as immersion goes, I think it was fairly uncommon for mainstream titles, especially on console, to have much in the way of feeling immersive until the late 90s or early 2000s. There were some earlier games, like Out of this World (Another World) and Myst, or perhaps some Infocom adventures, or Metroid... but games were heavily influenced by the arcade style until at least the mid 90s. Plus they did not usually have as much memory, especially dedicated to sounds. Some people feel immersed in older 8-bit titles that they really like, but usually people start describing games this way with titles like Silent Hill and Ico, which came much later than Doom. Well, for that genre, titles like System Shock were important steps and very influential.

But it's my contention that you can't have the same style of manic action and furious combat and crazy deadly encounters and stuff in a game that's more about immersion and story. That almost immediately implies slower action and more thoughtful approach to your surroundings (just as action movies are less known for their story than dramas). Doom 3 went for this a good bit, but it was an unhappy mix, overall.

If the game takes itself more seriously, like Bioshock or something, then fine. It works for that, I guess, although to me the way video games take themselves seriously is always ridiculous. Perhaps because I grew up in a more arcade time. But it comes off as pretentious. You're usually just killing lots of things anyway, but they try to shovel on top of that a bunch of serious storytelling and character design and it comes off as forced, to me. I prefer just arcade action. It's more honest that way.

(shrug)

(Although I did like the darker, more somber tone of Quake 1 a lot... but again, no story to get in the way of anything, really, outside of the episode end messages, if that counts).

(I should add one other thing: you probably know this, but before the advent of the CD-ROM, games were generally very limited in memory. Graphics and sound took up a lot of memory, as they still do today, but if a game wanted to have a lot of story or dialogue, even as text, that took up memory too, and believe it or not, a lot of text in dialogue was, back then, a limiting thing. You could either have one or the other, but it was the increased memory of CD-ROMs, their cheapness as a medium, that in the mid 90s brought about more mixing of great graphics/sound with great storytelling, often clumsily, in the form of interactive movie games or graphic adventures with a lot of voice overs and cutscenes. But it was also a matter of loading times: it took a while to load large files up, such as a voice clip of any length, or a video clip. So before the mid-90s of so, about at the same time that Doom came out, you did not usually have developers trying to bring much story into their action games. They had to focus on programming it such that they could quickly shift in and out of memory all the graphics, sounds and game code without there being any hiccups in gameplay. They were still limited to 2 or 4 megabit ROM sizes, less than a megabyte. Arcade games were larger, but still the idea held true. CDs brought about a sudden jump to about 600 megabytes, although loading times immediately became a headache here.

So originally Doom did have some plans for more of an interactive environment, I think: look up Tom Hall and his Doom Bible and his original wishes for what Doom was going to be. I think it was going to be more of a story or adventure and Carmack and others wanted it to be more "arcade." They did do away with some arcade elements that Wolfenstein still had, though, like the lives system (and hi score? can't remember).

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Yeah, Doom was originally going to be more like System Shock, with a heavy focus on co-op.

gamul312 said:

But it was also a matter of loading times: it took a while to load large files up

That was part of it, but an even bigger factor is the fact that optical drives are fucking slow in comparison to HDDs. And HDDs are fucking slow in comparison to purely electronic memory like an EPROM or SSD.

Off-topic, but whatever: I think using Mode 1 for Sega CD homebrew is a much better option than Mode 2. Mode 1 primarily ran the game off the cartridge, yet you could access the disk and the SCD's own hardware. Mode 2 was purely disk based and had a very limited 256kb cache. Use some ROM bankswitching in Mode 1 and you could have a big and fast game.

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I can see were you're coming from. Honestly, I agree if Doom93' tried to have any really complex story telling in it, it would've probably sucked and wouldn't of been necessary, especially with the limitations of the time. I was just looking at it from my perspective comparing it to the other things I've played ignoring the limitations of the time as an excuse, that's just how I critique my games (though, that might seem a bit unfair in the eyes of other people).

As for what you said on immersion, scripted events, ect, I wasn't suggesting like Half-Life 1/2 levels of story telling. Hell, even if it's the smallest of events that happen that can cue newcomers in to the whole setting of Doom, I think that would be great. If there isn't a single line of dialogue spoken in the entire game, I'm fine with that. Even if it's the most simplistic of any video game story ever written and they made it almost invisible, I think that would still work. In fact, I could go so far as to say that you could have no scripted events at all. Though, they could work with non-linear level design if you mixed them with some linear level design, kind of what like Duke Nukem: Forever 2013 did.

Another problem I didn't have the time to mention in my previous post with Doom93' was how barren the levels were. In fact, half the time I had absolutely no idea were I was in terms of the visuals and architecture. I mean, does level one seriously look like a hangar? Even if it's something as small as perse documents scattered across objects, signs telling you were you are in the facility, monitors containing various tibits of information, dead bodies, that kind of thing.

Could you imagine how awesome it would be if you killed everything in the room and notice small little things like research logs, monster bios, or possibly even Easter eggs you didn't notice before while searching for items and secrets? Another game I played that did this, Shadow Warrior, proved to me that detailed set pieces, a few scripted events, and maze-like level design can go together quite well if done correctly. Though, if Doom 4 tries to have characters, really deep in-your-face back story, or tries to take itself seriously, that just wouldn't work, I'll definitely agree with you there. I think if they try to include story telling, immersion, and scripted events, they should be treated like Vegemite on toast; it should be spread VERY lightly.

I think an arcade style game can work with a little bit of immersion and story-telling if done properly, just focus on the arcade-style gameplay more than the story-telling and scripted events themselves.

Arguably it becomes harder to do just "arcade action" when graphics get as complex as they are today -- even 10 or 15 years ago. Because now we have so much detail in the environments that it begs the question for why you can't examine things and learn more about it, or meet other people in the facilities, and so forth. The more detail, the more explanation needed, in large measure.

So I don't have a good answer for what to do there. Even with my talk of mazes, I'm reminded that they work best when you have repeated tiles (same walls over and over), like in Wolfenstein 3-D or Dungeon Master. But Doom wasn't really setting out to make mazes, exactly. It just seemed like some of the more complex ones felt that way because they were easy to get lost in. The poorness of the graphics contributed to that.

I'm sure it will have some level of scripting or staged events in it, like the way the gameplay we saw opens up with the helmet being put on. Or those moments where you see the ghost recordings of recent events after the severed hand is scanned. There might be stuff like walkways breaking away as you approach or traps that get set off.

If Id is smart about it, they'd put most of the explanations in the human world parts (Mars/Phobos), where you'd expect to learn about where you are, but much less or none at all in the Hell sections. Makes sense, right? But really I see it as a matter of pacing. You could have a riveting single player adventure where some levels/chapters are mostly just balls-to-the-wall action, while others are quieter and you're even doing a bit of investigating, like around a research lab, trying to find something that acts as a key, but you end up reading or overhearing (from audio logs) things that have happened. It's a matter of how it's timed and if it works in the mood of the game, if it's enjoyable there. It's the same way in action movies.

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I'm sure it will have some level of scripting or staged events in it, like the way the gameplay we saw opens up with the helmet being put on. Or those moments where you see the ghost recordings of recent events after the severed hand is scanned. There might be stuff like walkways breaking away as you approach or traps that get set off.

If Id is smart about it, they'd put most of the explanations in the human world parts (Mars/Phobos), where you'd expect to learn about where you are, but much less or none at all in the Hell sections. Makes sense, right? But really I see it as a matter of pacing. You could have a riveting single player adventure where some levels/chapters are mostly just balls-to-the-wall action, while others are quieter and you're even doing a bit of investigating, like around a research lab, trying to find something that acts as a key, but you end up reading or overhearing (from audio logs) things that have happened. It's a matter of how it's timed and if it works in the mood of the game, if it's enjoyable there. It's the same way in action movies.

That's exactly what I was thinking; instead of having back story or exposition explained through other characters in cut scenes or dialogue, explain it in really subtle, optional ways so it doesn't get in the way of killing things. I've always appreciated those sections in games that sort of just allow you to stop for a few moments to look around and try to figure out what the hell is going on, or even the really secret places that provide much further detail. I think stumbling upon something similar to the likes of Doug Ratman from Portal while searching for secret areas could be an awesome way to give players like me more of an incentive to look around for hidden items.

Not only would telling the story in a more cryptic fashion appeal to those who enjoy finding very small shreds of information expanding the lore and piecing together the plot or even subplots, it would also appeal to those who don't care about the setting or any back story and just want to shoot demons; instead of being forced to listen to or read all of the new lore, they could just skim past it and go straight for key items or secrets. It's a compromise I think could indeed work extremely well if executed right.

Oh, one more thing I didn't mention last time, I've listened to some of Audry Hodges' work before, and I will definitely say I prefer Doom 64's soundtrack over Doom93's; I still like Doom93's up-beat metal soundtrack, however, I just don't think it was used right.

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Doom93? I think just calling it Doom is the right term around here and new Doom is simply called Doom 4, without the stupid capitalization of the M at the end. Yea, it's a nitpick of mine for developers who just name their new game the same as an old title of theirs.

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Doom93? I think just calling it Doom is the right term around here and new Doom is simply called Doom 4, without the stupid capitalization of the M at the end. Yea, it's a nitpick of mine for developers who just name their new game the same as an old title of theirs.

Have you gone through any of the episodes from start to end yet?

Yes, three of them actually, and I got pretty far into Doom II before I became bored (though, I'm considering replaying through Doom 1 & 2 again on nightmare difficulty since I was having allot more fun). Also, I was saying Doom93' just because I didn't want to take any chances with clarity; this is the internet, after all.

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Doom didn't always have metal tracks playing. There were a lot of tracks that I still hum every now and then that were dark and spooky. I think u guys are forgetting about those.

Yeah, I do suppose I forgot to mention the dark, spooky songs or the bass-heavy ones. I guess I didn't mention most of Doom's soundtrack other than the metal--what it's most famously known for--to stay on one topic and due to allot of the tracks getting repetitive and, admittedly, bland after awhile. I know music back in the day on MSDOS wasn't all that complex or long due to memory limitations, but that still doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy it anymore today. I think the reason I don't remember Bobby Prince's work more than someone like Audry Hodges' work is just because Audry took allot more bold moves with his instrument choices. I think the reason I prefer Doom 64's soundtrack is just how difficult it is to describe, like you couldn't even explain it to another human being without having them listen to it for themselves; but, that's just my taste in music.

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Understood. I think the new Doom is gonna have the best of old Doom mixed with the best of Doom 3 which was atmosphere. The music in the demos wasn't straight Metal which I love above all forms of music but it wasn't crap. It was very fitting. They know what they're doing. People always want to bash the devs but they're doing their very best. This game means just as much to them as it does us. Probably more so to them because they're very careers and livelihoods are on the line.

And to DooM_RO, yeah I know what u mean about those idiots on YouTube. Half of them think Doom started with Doom 3. And the ones that started with Doom 1 & 2 didn't play them enough to even remember what they were and what they brought to the table. Dumb hipsters.

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Understood. I think the new Doom is gonna have the best of old Doom mixed with the best of Doom 3 which was atmosphere. The music in the demos wasn't straight Metal which I love above all forms of music but it wasn't crap. It was very fitting. They know what they're doing. People always want to bash the devs but they're doing their very best. This game means just as much to them as it does us. Probably more so to them because they're very careers and livelihoods are on the line.

I'm so glad someone else other than me doesn't think the new music is awful. Industrialized, metallic-sounding, electronic instruments with some heavy guitar thrown in works flawlessly for the combat sections; they absolutely nailed it, especially considering Doom's futuristic setting. Though, I don't think they should use electronic too much, if you use the same category of combat music all they way through it can get stale. Now, imagine this; what if in the later stages of Hell were you finally start to leave the UAC facility and tread deeper into Hell, they not only start to use more metal and less electronic, but also mix some Gothic choir and organ into it as well? That would be fucking *awesome*.

As for the the more quite, ambient music they showed off, my God, now that's how you do atmospheric music right. It creates a sense of dread and excitement at the same time, always hoping for yet dreading another monster encounter, even more so if you're low on health and armor. It doesn't kill any immersion and it contributes even more punch to the combat segments. It what atmospheric music in almost every other action game should do; it builds suspense, and I'm so glad they made that improvement instead of just sticking to one theme for the entire level.

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Well, if the story/story telling doesn't get in the way of gameplay, optional to listen to, subtly told, and expands upon the lore of Doom, why not have it? It could add more re-play value and depth to Doom 4 if done right. Plus, the only four RPGs I've ever really enjoyed from start-to-finish are Dragon Quest VIII & IX, Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, and Earthbound; but that's a whole different topic for another time.

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I recall the composer posting this on his in brief demo track on his instagram. As you can see there's electric guitars and drums and all that. So the OST's gonna go on a spectrum between industrial and metal.

Still would've loved if Hodges' militaristic rock & aliased sample nightmarescapes had been persued in some capacity.

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Before December '93 there had been nothing, nothing like Doom. Yes, I can already hear people saying "Wolfenstein" or possibly even something like "Ultima Underworld" etc but no, nothing put you behind the gun and into a world quite like Doom did and let you run through it and interact with it so immediately. Anyone raised solely on a diet of what came before will never forget what that first time playing Doom was like.

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I've seen allot of people upset over how slow the player moves and the level design (even though it was just part of being a demo, but whatever), yet clamor over how immersive the original Doom is. First of all, and I know I'm going to get some hate for this, I personally don't think the original Doom has held up very well in the immersion department.

See my level design thread where i analyzed the UAC level shown, before it was confirmed by id Software that the map is even bigger in scale because it's possible to jump down to catwalks seen below. And movement isn't about being immersive, it's just to give you fast adrenaline filled experience or in otherwords.. it's just plain fun. Fast movement speed is something you just don't get in an slow moving shooter of todays design. ( i am not indicating Doom 4 has slow movement speed)

Yes, I know how revolutionary it was back in 1993, it was amazing for it's time; and I say "was" for a reason. I don't know if it's just me being born in 2001 and not finding out about it until much, much later, but I just don't see what everyone's talking about. How am I supposed to feel immersed when I'm running at 60 miles an hour with low frame animations, midi-death metal playing all the time, and a questionable use of colors and architecture? It doesn't feel like I'm in a demon ridden base, it feels like I'm playing an arcade game! And before you say, "oh, you just care about the graphics, don't you?", I'm going to turn around and say that graphics =/= immersion. Hell, I'm a huge fan of the original Half-Life and even that game's visuals haven't aged well either; however, what it does get right and has always gotten it right is immersion.

The Ultimate DOOM is pretty much just "Terminator: The Simulator".It's all about the killing while cool music plays and makes you feel like a true badass because you alone bring down hell.

Nanomen said:

One of the biggest reasons I'm not a big fan of classic Doom and don't really see why so many people call it such an atmospheric game is because of the lack of ambient noises. Sure, you have the noise monsters make, but that doesn't mean anything if it's drowned out by bombastic action music playing constantly. Music should be played only when action happens; all of it's emphasis gets thrown out the window when it's blasting all the time. I mean, what's the point of playing such awesome music if all you're doing is going around hallways and corridors looking for items? A game very similar to the likes of Doom, Painkiller, in my opinion was one of the first classic FPSs that got music right. Ambient noises and suspenseful sounds would loop when you were going around searching for items, meaning when the heavy metal finally did kick in, it felt all the more kick ass because it got you in the mood to kill shit. It wasn't just background music, and that's what made it so great.

Can't expect fully lively ambient world from an game that pretty much Made The FPS Genre. It was un-heard of at that time and thus couldn't have been thought of to add. Plus, it would've been a performance toll on computers of early 90's since they ran all on software mode, didn't even have actual external/independent gpu's like todays.

Painkiller isn't a game like DOOM, Serious Sam is neither. Those games take one element from it which wasn't even the biggest, killing. On otherways though.. Serious Sam and Painkiller are very different to DOOM. They can be considered Horde Combat FPS, HCFPS. They are linear, lock you to arenas until you've killed x amount of incoming enemy horde waves. Well, atleast Serious Sam doesn't really lock you but Painkiller is very linear and does lock. Doom never locked the player in fights, you could literally run around the map and enemies came from any possible place, not just "combat arenas" and that was the other thing. DOOM had very non-linear maze-like maps that had multiple directions to same location.

Nanomen said:

Another thing I didn't really like about Doom--and I can't believe I'm going to say this right in front of the entire Doom community--is the lack of scripted events or story telling. Okay, okay, I know what you're thinking, yes, I know that when misused, scripted events suck ass, and that I'm crazy for criticizing Doom for such a ridiculous reason; yes, I know that way too many scripted events can ruin a game, just look at Duke Nukem: Forever, that was a horrible game! But, if they're used properly and don't get in the way of the player where you're forced to listen to them, they can be wonderful. For example, let's look at Half-Life (again). In the beginning of the game, right after the experiment goes wrong, you can really tell and begin to understand how fucked the facility really is without the game needing to say a single word or even use a single cut scene. When you see an elevator full of scientists fall to their death, equipment malfunctioning, aliens killing everybody, and a gruesome government cover-up operation, it really makes you feel like you're in a facility that's going to complete hell.

Half-Life, i like all of them but 1 (98) the most. DOOM isn't supposed to be more "advanced" than to kill demons and navigate the non-linear map. (yes, it can also include vertical navigation, which im glad doom 4 has)

Nanomen said:

I know you could fire back at me and say "well, Doom doesn't really have much of a story to tell!"; and, quite frankly, you're right. In fact, if you think about it, Half-Life's story is just a glorified version of Doom's story with aliens instead of demons. But that doesn't mean it has to abandon the idea of immersion entirely! Instead, it can also focus on creating a world the player can truly believe he's in. I'm not saying the experience should be told through cut scenes and dialogue, I'm just saying we shouldn't go back to nothing at all.

Quoting just some fan from quakecon 2015. "You kill demons from hell"

Nanomen said:

And that brings me to my conclusion; why go back to nothing when you could have so much more? Quite frankly, I don't think Doom 4 really needs to be an exact copy of the original Doom. I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting an arcade action style gameplay, but that doesn't mean we should just stick to every tradition of the past. We've evolved from primitive set pieces and awkward stage transitions, so why should we go back to them? I mean, just look at what games like Wolfenstein: The New Order and Duke Nukem: Forever 2013 did. They stayed somewhat true to the original formula while also improving and adding upon it's core gameplay elements to create a better experience.

Call me whatever, whatever but i didn't enjoy the new Wolfenstein and frankly i expected more from my Swedish neighbours who also brought us that awesome and epic Riddick (2004), sequel of riddick (2009) was only an "eh" game. But new order was 10 times more cinema-heavy than riddick games ever were. Shame on you Machine Games, you are nothing like the good old Starbreeze..

Duke Nukem Forever 2013 Duke3D mod was epic, yes. Scripting and everything done in a way it's supposed to be done. Praise the gameplay. Cinematics should never override gameplay and modern games still haven't learned that from Half-Life.

Nanomen said:

In my opinion, if Doom 4 does the same thing those games managed to do while also making the levels a little bit less linear with faster movement, that's perfectly fine. We should keep moving forward, not be stuck in the past. Those are just my personal thoughts, anyway. I'd like to hear what you guys have to say in the comments, and if anyone else feels the same way I do. Thanks for reading this really long post I needed to get out of my system. - Nanomen

Using my own drawn map analysis picture now again. Luckily, levels won't be pretty much linear at all because this map is one of the first maps from Doom 4.

Nanomen said:

We should keep moving forward, not be stuck in the past.

Also i am not really sure what kinda troll/clickbait this is but i am going for it anyways..

As far as modern fps design is concerned, i share the feel with romero. "Modern fps games are just about being a slow moving bulletsponge rather than having high agility and moving and dodging rockets etc.. running circles around the other players."

Modern fps design is mainly gimped by controllers because fps is too complicated for controllers to handle without slow bulletsponge-ads-regenerating-health gameplay. Even DOOM 4 played so at one point but thank gosh it got scrapped. Thankfully DOOM 4 is gonna be more different than Wolf was.

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@quakke Wow, that's a long reply. First of all, I never said the level design was too linear; I only mentioned how other people were. Those who complained about the levels being too linear are just plain stupid; it's a demo, of course it is. Secondly, I know fast-movement isn't supposed to be immersive, I just thought 60 miles per hour is way too fast for me to take seriously. I think the movement speed they showed off in the demos (and that one brief shot in the trailer where Doomguy appears to be going super fast while strafing) was much better, not too slow, but not too fast.

As for what you said on Doom being "Terminator: The Simulator", my response would be yes-and-no; yes, because you get to kill shit (which is awesome), and no, because Doom--at least back in 1993--wasn't just about killing things to most people. I've commonly seen allot of Doom fans, even Gabe Newell himself, asked about what they remember most fondly from Doom, and most of them said it was actually the scary atmosphere--for the time, at least. I mean, Doom was not even remotely close to allot of the games that were coming out in 93', even it's predecessor, Wolfenstein, had some differences. For one, the noises the monsters themselves made I can image were terrifying to anyone who was new to Doom. They made you fear what was up ahead and would scare the shit out of you if you were in a dark area. Like remember that one part in the toxin refinery where as soon as you pick up the blue key, the whole room goes dark and imps come out of nowhere? That's what I'm talking about.

You also called me out for picking on a game that came out in 1993 for not having enough ambient sound effects, like the hum of a ceiling fan, footsteps, metallic creaking, ect, ect. While, yes, I understand how most people consider it unfair to criticize an issue that comes all the way down to the hardware itself, I don't take excuses. I don't care if the problem was because of the hardware itself, it doesn't matter, an issue is still an issue; that's just how I think when I'm critiquing a game. As to why I didn't complain about the graphics, visuals don't matter all too much in my eyes--unless it's something like Bubsy 3D or Action 52 where they're literally painful to look at.

Painkiller, yes, I now realize isn't all to similar to Doom, but that doesn't change the fact that Painkiller was inspired by Doom and does have some similarities; I was just using it to make a point about the music.

I understand Doom back then technically wasn't that much more than "here's some demons, here's a big, non-linear level; kill the demons and explore this level", but I would at least like to see something interesting going on other than killing demons the entire game.

If you don't like Wolfenstein: The New Order, fine. That's your opinion, but I'll most certainly say they shouldn't use cinematics; I'm glad we can both agree Duke Nukem: Forever 2013 had a fantastic use of scripting for a classic FPS, that's the kind of thing Doom 4 should be aiming at.

As for my previous conclusion, I think I realized one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to see immersion in the first place; I want other people to experience what old Doom fans experienced all those years ago. Back when I said "most Doom fans said they remembered the atmosphere/immersion," that's what I want to see, too. I don't want Doom 4 to just to be a clone of Doom 1, I want it to re-imagine what made the first Doom so great, to make it easier for new-comers to understand what it was like back then; it wasn't just a game, it was an experience. I'm not expecting to see the same level of innovation people saw with Doom 1, not even close; however, what I do want is new fans not to see it as just pure action, but rather as something so much more.

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I recall the composer posting this on his in brief demo track on his instagram. As you can see there's electric guitars and drums and all that. So the OST's gonna go on a spectrum between industrial and metal.

Still would've loved if Hodges' militaristic rock & aliased sample nightmarescapes had been persued in some capacity.

That short, seven second preview track seriously reminded me of Quake 2's soundtrack--which is awesome; and if that's true, thank God, I love musical variety, especially with lots of different instruments. Though, I'll agree it would've been sick if Audry came back to work on Doom 4's soundtrack with the new guy; but, I guess we can't have everything good in life, sadly.