Occupy cprogamming.com!

This is a discussion on Occupy cprogamming.com! within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Just kidding.
I live near Toronto, and if I did not have commitments preventing me, I'd be happy to be ...

Occupy cprogamming.com!

Just kidding.

I live near Toronto, and if I did not have commitments preventing me, I'd be happy to be taking part. Altho the protest here is small, I'm impressed by the form and -- surprisingly, since T.O. is a conservative place with a (recent) history of animosity and violence toward leftist protest -- the media coverage of the event.

By "impressed by the form", I mean that the purpose is ambiguous (beyond a general concern about current global economics) and it has been left up to the actual participants to decide what it is they want to say and how they will say it.

By "impressed by the media coverage", I mean that for the most part, they have not towed the simple (right wing reactionary) line and said, "This is too ambiguous, these people don't have their tish together and do not deserve an audience." Instead (for the most part), they seem to be intrigued by the ambiguity and giving some credulence to the form. Now that is evolutionary social progress!

So I thot I'd start this thread looking for comments by people in other "occupied" cities. A few of them (sadly, IMO) have clearly become oppositional, but my feeling is that the peaceful, small scale, diffuse and heterogeneous T.O. protest is typical.

Tangential observation: I notice a lot of the masks worn by Anonymous (the h/cracker collective) supporters here and internationally. Personally, I think that is a negative thing, as however noble the goals of Anonymous are, their tactics IMO are terrorist tactics. However, I do recognize that Anonymous can be a clever bunch with (presumably) a serious, significant global presence whose interests are not necessarily cyber-terrorism, but cyber-savvy, and wonder what role they have played in the "Occupy" movement.

I live near Toronto, and if I did not have commitments preventing me, I'd be happy to be taking part. Altho the protest here is small, I'm impressed by the form and -- surprisingly, since T.O. is a conservative place with a (recent) history of animosity and violence toward leftist protest -- the media coverage of the event.

Wow, violence towards events?

Originally Posted by MK27

By "impressed by the form", I mean that the purpose is ambiguous (beyond a general concern about current global economics) and it has been left up to the actual participants to decide what it is they want to say and how they will say it.

Honestly though, what is the message of the protest then?

Originally Posted by MK27

By "impressed by the media coverage", I mean that for the most part, they have not towed the simple (right wing reactionary) line and said, "This is too ambiguous, these people don't have their tish together and do not deserve an audience." Instead (for the most part), they seem to be intrigued by the ambiguity and giving some credulence to the form. Now that is evolutionary social progress!

IMO, that is just the media being the media. The whole "whatever makes the headlines" thing.

Originally Posted by MK27

So I thot I'd start this thread looking for comments by people in other "occupied" cities. A few of them (sadly, IMO) have clearly become oppositional, but my feeling is that the peaceful, small scale, diffuse and heterogeneous T.O. protest is typical.

It certainly makes traffic worse......

Originally Posted by MK27

Tangential observation: I notice a lot of the masks worn by Anonymous (the h/cracker collective) supporters here and internationally. Personally, I think that is a negative thing, as however noble the goals of Anonymous are, their tactics IMO are terrorist tactics. However, I do recognize that Anonymous can be a clever bunch with (presumably) a serious, significant global presence whose interests are not necessarily cyber-terrorism, but cyber-savvy, and wonder what role they have played in the "Occupy" movement.

"People not Profit". For the most part it's an outcry against corporate greed and service cutbacks in governments.

In Canada the degredation of government funded health care is a big one, as is the reduction in pension plans by corporations where CEOs take more home in a week than their workers do in a year... You know the usual... a bunch of people (correctly) screaming for a fair deal.

"People not Profit". For the most part it's an outcry against corporate greed and service cutbacks in governments.

It sounds like socialism to me.

Originally Posted by CommonTater

In Canada the degredation of government funded health care is a big one, as is the reduction in pension plans by corporations where CEOs take more home in a week than their workers do in a year... You know the usual... a bunch of people (correctly) screaming for a fair deal.

You guys have a government run healthcare, we (in the US) do not. I can see the argument for the degredation of something already in place, however I do not see the point for the "fair wage" ideology.

In some aspects... but that may not be entirely a bad thing if it results in some redistribution of wealth to those who need it most.

You guys have a government run healthcare, we (in the US) do not. I can see the argument for the degredation of something already in place, however I do not see the point for the "fair wage" ideology.

There were a rash of news stories a couple of years back that have probably shaped Canadian opinion very strongly... one in particular was a story about a large corporation up here who less than a week after defaulting on pension plans for nearly a thousand workers gave it's CEO a million a month salary.

Another big part of the Canadian "Occupy" position is that we are fed up with crap products manufactured off-shore while Canadian workers sit on welfare.

So I thot I'd start this thread looking for comments by people in other "occupied" cities. A few of them (sadly, IMO) have clearly become oppositional, but my feeling is that the peaceful, small scale, diffuse and heterogeneous T.O. protest is typical.

It died very quickly here. The next day in fact, meaning they just resisted one night until they felt bored and arranged through iPhone for another manif to take place in a month or so.

There was a people's assembly. But the only conclusion it must have reached is that people aren't being serious about their protesting, prefer the comfort of the night bars, it was too hot anyways and their iPhones battery couldn't resist a week if they didn't stop taking photographs of each other smiling during a demonstration of people's anger against the system.

In some aspects... but that may not be entirely a bad thing if it results in some redistribution of wealth to those who need it most.

yes, there is plenty of greed at the top of large corporations, but I don't see how it's the government's responsibility to redistribute wealth. if they take it away from the wealthy, it won't go directly to the poor. it will go through numerous, horribly inefficient government programs, and (if US history is any indicator) less than half of it is likely to make it to the people who "need" it. in any case, you're from canada, so I don't know what the illegal immigration situation is like up there, but here in the US, there's an estimated 13 million illegal immigrants working at jobs that they don't deserve, simply because of the fact that they came here illegally. kicking out all the illegals, not legalizing them, would go a LONG way in recovering our economy, and getting all of our unemployed back to work.

yes, there is plenty of greed at the top of large corporations, but I don't see how it's the government's responsibility to redistribute wealth. if they take it away from the wealthy, it won't go directly to the poor. it will go through numerous, horribly inefficient government programs, and (if US history is any indicator) less than half of it is likely to make it to the people who "need" it. in any case, you're from canada, so I don't know what the illegal immigration situation is like up there, but here in the US, there's an estimated 13 million illegal immigrants working at jobs that they don't deserve, simply because of the fact that they came here illegally. kicking out all the illegals, not legalizing them, would go a LONG way in recovering our economy, and getting all of our unemployed back to work.

We have about the same illegals problem, by population as you guys do.

I can't speak for the millions of others but in my case, I would not go to government and ask them to intercede with business... My message, were it to be heard would be... "Knock it off you greedy pigs!" ... One might reasonably hope that in a fair and just world the PEOPLE at the top would want to help out the PEOPLE at the bottom... While I know that's not the case today --and has not been since Flintstone was mayor-- there should be no reason it cannot be the case tomorrow.

yes, there is plenty of greed at the top of large corporations, but I don't see how it's the government's responsibility to redistribute wealth. if they take it away from the wealthy, it won't go directly to the poor. it will go through numerous, horribly inefficient government programs, and (if US history is any indicator) less than half of it is likely to make it to the people who "need" it.

And your government is getting ready to expand its reach even further by introduce inefficient organization and an higher chance of corruption into new sectors of the economy. It's as like it refused to look at its European neighbors and learn anything from us and what got us into where we are now. Considering that USA is facing a gigantic deficit that threatens the world economy if it becomes the catalyst for a recession, it's just that it not only isn't learning from our mistakes, it is cheerfully and actively trying to repeat them.

As for the matter of Greed... a point of disagreement: Greed is common to all sectors of a society. Not just large corporations. It is more visible there because they can actually materialize that greed, whereas poorer sectors can only hope for the day they'll be greedy too. Failed attempts at Communism and Socialism were exactly a demonstration of how Greed extends to anyone and how Corruption is greed's arm on a society dependent on a central government. But if we look at the poorer societies in the world (and I lived briefly in one) one can see how greed can even manifest itself among those who have very little. It's a harsh lesson I learned in Angola, visiting the poorest neighborhoods and travelling on their crowded taxis that poverty it too generates greed. Greed among family members, among neighbors and among perfect strangers. Greed is everywhere. It's a human condition. One which neither you or I are immune, even if from within the comfortable position of our middle class we are lead to believe we are immune to it. It's not Them that are greedy and Us are not. Greed is us. And we are just like the large corporations. "Them" are instead those rare few humans who are indeed immune to it, who don't share the same gene, and demonstrate so by their actual actions (not words) sacrificing their own well being in the process by dedicating their lives to the others. So, before we look at large corporations at the source of all evil, we better look inside our hearts for that same evil that makes us, the ones who build those oh-so-evil corporations.

And your government is getting ready to expand its reach even further by introduce inefficient organization and an higher chance of corruption into new sectors of the economy. It's as like it refused to look at its European neighbors and learn anything from us and what got us into where we are now. Considering that USA is facing a gigantic deficit that threatens the world economy if it becomes the catalyst for a recession, it's just that it not only isn't learning from our mistakes, it is cheerfully and actively trying to repeat them.

what they fail to realize is that the more government oversight and regulation you have, the worse the problems get. excessive regulation is what caused the mortgage industry collapse in the US. by requiring banks to approve home mortgages for people who could not afford to pay them back, the US government (thanks to carter and clinton) caused its own problems. now our current president has spent more, and put us more in the red than any previous president. by the end of his term, I expect it to be more than all previous presidents combined.

As for the matter of Greed... a point of disagreement: Greed is common to all sectors of a society. Not just large corporations. It is more visible there because they can actually materialize that greed, whereas poorer sectors can only hope for the day they'll be greedy too. Failed attempts at Communism and Socialism were exactly a demonstration of how Greed extends to anyone and how Corruption is greed's arm on a society dependent on a central government. But if we look at the poorer societies in the world (and I lived briefly in one) one can see how greed can even manifest itself among those who have very little. It's a harsh lesson I learned in Angola, visiting the poorest neighborhoods and travelling on their crowded taxis that poverty it too generates greed. Greed among family members, among neighbors and among perfect strangers. Greed is everywhere. It's a human condition. One which neither you or I are immune, even if from within the comfortable position of our middle class we are lead to believe we are immune to it. It's not Them that are greedy and Us are not. Greed is us. And we are just like the large corporations. "Them" are instead those rare few humans who are indeed immune to it, who don't share the same gene, and demonstrate so by their actual actions (not words) sacrificing their own well being in the process by dedicating their lives to the others. So, before we look at large corporations at the source of all evil, we better look inside our hearts for that same evil that makes us, the ones who build those oh-so-evil corporations.

I did not intend to imply that those at the "top" were the only ones guilty of greed. it is simply a fact of human nature. the worst offenders are those with political power. they pretend to want to help, but it's all about their own greed for power and other people's money.

It sounds like socialism to me. I do not see the point for the "fair wage" ideology.

Fair enough -- you are well off to the right side of the political spectrum. It looks to me (via news coverage of Toronto and New York) as if "the goal" is more about bringing like minded people together than arguing with people who hold diametrically opposed political views, or trying to sell them something they are never going to buy.

Not to say that arguing is a always waste of time, lol, but... I think an analogy to the tea party is fair; I do not believe that the tea party in America (I was living there until this year) changed anyone's mind about anything*; it simply gave a bunch of like-minded people a collective focal point. Of course, the scale here may be different, and the form: right wing people tend to prefer vertical hierarchies and "strong leadership", whereas left wing people tend to favor horizontal integration and a very restrained/limited leadership.

* and I don't think the "occupy" protests will either. However, it may provide some people an opportunity to network, learn from others, think about their own ideas, etc.

left wing people tend to favor horizontal integration and a very restrained/limited leadership.

but the further left you go, the more they seem to want the government to control everything, to the point of taking all of everyone's money, so that everyone is equally impoverished, and then doling out what they think people "need" to live on. the trouble with this is that the government then has the power to deny service to individuals or groups who they deem unworthy, leaving them (potentially, quite literally) out in the cold.

it's really a double standard. the same people who want the government to redistribute the wealth of the wealthy, still want the ability to accumulate wealth of their own without interference.

even if you were to set the marginal tax rate for persons making over 1 million dollars per year at 100%, that would put a very small (nearly invisible) dent in the national debt, at least in the US. the real trick is creating an environment where businesses can thrive and generate revenue, employing people, who spend money, generating revenue for other businesses, so that there is lots of money in the economy to be taxed. then the tax rates need not be as high, and the government can have all the money it needs (within reason), and people don't feel like they are being screwed every time they get a paycheck. most americans feel that their tax dollars are being wasted, so controlling government spending is important too. accountability is the key. most government agencies are given carte blanche to set their own spending limit, and so you have lots of offices whose work could be done by half the staff or less. as an employee of a government contractor, I see this firsthand every day. in general, government employees in the US are lazy, and do as little as they can to satisfy their job requirements, because there is no motivation to work harder, and no motivation to serve the customer (taxpayer). if all government agencies at all levels were required to provide a dollar-by-dollar accounting of their expenses, and a minute-by-minute accounting of their time, and the results were made public, I think the public outcry would completely overshadow any movement on wall street or anywhere else they are protesting large corporations.

but the further left you go, the more they seem to want the government to control everything [...] the trouble with this is that the government then has the power to deny service to individuals or groups who they deem unworthy

The trend toward totalitarian control is more prevalent on the right than it is on the left, global history wise. In terms of modern western society, this is very pronounced; eg, America's drug war is a right wing agenda. They now spend more money on the prison system than they do on education, and have more people per capita incarcerated than any country in the world not engaged in civil war. Who's idea of "small government", "freedom", "laissez faire", etc, is that? Liars and cons who wants total control, methinks Very interesting considering it is much a contracted private industry.

most americans feel that their tax dollars are being wasted,

I don't think so. I think Americans are hot-headed and very prone to dialectical rhetoric, but on the other hand, appreciate things like public schools, roadways, police, etc, and understand that this is what they pay taxes for. Try running as the "no more taxes, no more services" party and see how far that gets you.

in general, government employees in the US are lazy, and do as little as they can to satisfy their job requirements, because there is no motivation to work harder, and no motivation to serve the customer (taxpayer).

This is an argument about human nature. You are saying we need a powerful, government backed "economic system"* to provide very strong pusnishment/reward incentives to people. If that is human nature, we are f***ed, period, end of story, because we will never have a trustworthy elite that can provide that -- by nature, they themselves will be lazy and explotative, corrupt, and in the end, inefficient and wasteful (which contra all the BS, our current economic system is).

However, if that is not "human nature", we need to think harder as species about who we are, where we are, how we behave, what we want from the future.

if all government agencies at all levels were required to provide a dollar-by-dollar accounting of their expenses, and a minute-by-minute accounting of their time, and the results were made public

It would probably be WAY WAY WAY more interesting if private business had to do this, qv Madoff, Enron, on and on an on...considering the extent to which the banking system is propped up by taxpayer dollars worldwide (and that is about to get very much worse in much of the west; we are bailing out GANGSTERS), I think that only fair. If you can flush money down some sort of ponzi scheme/real estate bubble/just plain greed scheme in complete darkness and then demand:

1) the goverment save you because your activities are vital to the economy
2) your garbage man fill in a productivity sheet for everyone, because that is the real problem

I believe you are either mentally incapacitated or just plain HELLBOUND (all apologies).

* it is not natural (it is contrived) it requires A LOT of enforcement, regulation, etc. But I guess that does not count as government control ???!?

The trend toward totalitarian control is more prevalent on the right than it is on the left, global history wise. In terms of modern western society, this is very pronounced; eg, America's drug war is a right wing agenda. They now spend more money on the prison system than they do on education, and have more people per capita incarcerated than any country in the world not engaged in civil war. Who's idea of "small government", "freedom", "laissez faire", etc, is that? Liars and cons who wants total control, methinks Very interesting considering it is much a contracted private industry.

you are using drug control policy and law enforcement as a very broad brush to paint the right side of the aisle. as a libertarian, I'd be in favor of more open drug policy, so long as it's still legal to fire someone for being under the influence at work or punish them for driving under the influence.

Originally Posted by MK27

I don't think so. I think Americans are hot-headed and very prone to dialectical rhetoric, but on the other hand, appreciate things like public schools, roadways, police, etc, and understand that this is what they pay taxes for. Try running as the "no more taxes, no more services" party and see how far that gets you.

yes, people appreciate those things, but I guess it would have been more precise to say that most americans believe that their tax dollars are not being used efficiently. nuances... gotta love them.

Originally Posted by MK27

This is an argument about human nature. You are saying we need a powerful, government backed "economic system"* to provide very strong pusnishment/reward incentives to people. If that is human nature, we are f***ed, period, end of story, because we will never have a trustworthy elite that can provide that -- by nature, they themselves will be lazy and explotative, corrupt, and in the end, inefficient and wasteful (which contra all the BS, our current economic system is).

However, if that is not "human nature", we need to think harder as species about who we are, where we are, how we behave, what we want from the future.

if I made a customer wait for a half hour for service while I play solitaire, I would be fired. government employees get a pass on this sort of behavior. like I said, I see it every single day.

Originally Posted by MK27

It would probably be WAY WAY WAY more interesting if private business had to do this, qv Madoff, Enron, on and on an on...considering the extent to which the banking system is propped up by taxpayer dollars worldwide (and that is about to get very much worse in much of the west; we are bailing out GANGSTERS), I think that only fair. If you can flush money down some sort of ponzi scheme/real estate bubble/just plain greed scheme in complete darkness and then demand:

generally, businesses are mostly above-board with their finances, because they are required by law to account for every intake and expense. it's true that there are bad apples like enron etc, but I'd say the overwhelming majority of private businesses are generally honest with their books, if not with their customers. sure, most businesses try to avoid paying taxes, but they usually find legal ways to do so.

Originally Posted by MK27

1) the goverment save you because your activities are vital to the economy
2) your garbage man fill in a productivity sheet for everyone, because that is the real problem

my garbage man is an employee of a private contractor, whom I pay directly. many cities are going to this sort of setup. the ones who have not are probably seeing some of their money wasted in inefficient bureaucracy.

Originally Posted by MK27

I believe you are either mentally incapacitated or just plain HELLBOUND (all apologies).

* it is not natural (it is contrived) it requires A LOT of enforcement, regulation, etc. But I guess that does not count as government control ???!?

you are using drug control policy and law enforcement as a very broad brush to paint the right side of the aisle.

Indeed. But so we tend to do too, to paint over left-winged policies with very broad brushes. That is in fact what I perceive as being the current biggest problem in USA (and one that scares me particularly). The radicalization of speech and the partisan politics that all but completely dominate the current USA political scene, aided by a media that just essentially surrendered to political ideology, has been in my humble opinion the worst display in American history since perhaps the persecution of communists in the war days, or the general acceptance of racial segregation up to the 60s. That is, all parties involved lack any form of tolerance to different ideas or are anywhere near flexible and understanding to anything outside their ideological beliefs.

On both sides of the fence, USA politics turned into a urine contest where vanity, fear mongering and zealotry dominate and are filtered through the very aware and conscious media into the population as propaganda, reminding anyone for a penchant for history of the fall of the Roman Empire.

In fact we very possibly facing an historic period in which the world economy is coming into a turning point. There's a sort of established knowledge in Europe which goes like "Call in the right to deal with a crisis, call in the left to deal with a war". Historically this has pretty much always confirmed to be true. It was only through socialist maneuvers imposed by men like Ernest Bevin, with the reluctant benevolence of Churcill, that UK was able to change gears into a full war economy that saved the country. The "Beavis Boys" were made up of any and every member of society and mines were being mined by the rich kids of London's finest. J.B. Priestley once said "The British were absolutely their best in the Second World War. They were never as good, in my lifetime, before it and I'm sorry to say they've never been quite as good after it". The same socialist principles turned Germany into the most feared war machine men ever built, or the then Russia into the largest army this planet ever saw. Likewise, throughout history economical crisis have always been pretty much dealt with by the right, better than the left.

But we've never faced an economic crisis during a financial boom before. What I seem to see from all this is that it is ideology that destroys any political agenda. Faced with a challenge like we are facing it's becoming evident, here in Europe, that no solution (left or right's) is ever going to be handle the problem. No one holds the solution to this problem if they hold on to their old banners. There's no solution that doesn't involve bringing in left and right wings ideologies together. Europe needs as much tax increases and spend cuts as it requires new investment and regulations, to get out of this hole. I'm sorry to say that, while embarrassed at my continent recent history and also at my country's part in it, I feel that once again we are the ones coming to realize sooner than everyone else that this is a world event and that everyone is going to be affected by it, while USA... well, they'll need their Pearl Harbor to finally join up.