Exploring the Problematic and Subversive Shit People Say [Meme-ology]

So all this started with “Shit Girls Say,” which now has over 11 million views:

Created by Graydon Sheppard and Kyle Humphrey (and boosted by the star power of Juliette Lewis), “Shit Girls Say” went viral by taking a male perspective on common things “women” do and presenting it as humor. Internet forums filled with comments like “Omigod, all my friends do that” or “that is so me.” The sketch proved to be so popular, there are now three episodes, probably with more in the pipeline.

However, everyone wasn’t laughing at “Shit Girls Say.” Quite a few people noticed that the “girls” referred to in the top video were a certain type of woman, an experience that was not shared by all. Others noted that the humor that made the video funny was actually rooted in sexist stereotypes. Over at Feministing, Samhita explains:

While, I usually applaud men in drag, I can’t help but be critical of these characterizations of women. Are some of these stereotypes uncannily true? I’m sure they can be. But that’s the problem with stereotypes, it’s not about whether they are true or not, it’s that they are used to disempower people or deny them certain privileges. And I get that it is comedy, but it’s like the most boring and lazy comedy possible. You know, let’s make fun of girls cuz we already know everyone thinks they are dumb and annoying tee hee. These videos might as well be beer ads.

Girls, or young women, who already speak largely in the interrogative and treat the world of men as another, completely inscrutable species, have enough on their minds already. They are already sexualized to the maximum. Must their every word be a potential joke?

AVC: Formally, the videos are great because they work like the Twitter feed—they’re just little one-liners stitched together. The obvious precedent would be something like Shit My Dad Says, and the TV show, which spins these sayings into 22-minute episodes. Were you trying to keep things a bit more rapid-fire, in the spirit of the Twitter feed?

GS: I think we were aware of Shit My Dad Says, and we wanted something that would live in the same Internet world as the Twitter feed. In a way, with Shit My Dad Says, it makes sense to do something longer and more anecdotal, because that was Justin [Halpern]’s story: his life with his dad. It was biographical, and there was a lot more material. But [our] tweets aren’t necessarily a single character. They’re not one woman. They’re a specific kind of woman. We don’t in any way purport to represent all women, and I think people understand that. I think our next video goes a little further than the tweets. It’s not a narrative, necessarily, but it’s a little more abstract.

AVC: Some of the criticism your project has received seems to miss this “certain kind of woman” concept that you mention. Something that refers to “girls” as an idea is essentializing, but it doesn’t seem like the concept would work if it were called Shit A Certain Kind Of Woman Who Has Been Socialized To Behave A Certain Way Says. How are you responding to criticism suggesting that the project is sexist or misogynist?

GS: You can’t really respond to it, other than positively. We respect women; we love women; we grew up around women; the people who helped us on the project were women. Obviously we can’t critique anyone for critiquing us in this way. Everyone has the right to critique it. It’s a really interesting dialogue that has come up because of the people criticizing it. It’s tricky territory. It’s sensitive territory. But people have the right to be offended. It’s par for the course, especially if something goes this big, which we never thought it would.

But I’m gay, and Kyle’s gay, and people put things out there about gay people. There are television shows about gay people, and I think we try to not let that define us. We know they don’t necessarily speak for us. I think it’s a really interesting topic. We’ve been learning a lot.

So while there was critique, there was also quite a bit of creation. The next sensation to hit YouTube was a racialized version of the first, “Shit Black Girls Say” clocking in at close to 5 million views.

Comedian Billy Sorrells portrays a character named Peaches, which also proved to be a sensation, though for more puzzling reasons. Naima Ramos-Chapman flinched at some of the humor, noting:

When the meme got a racialized twist with Billy Sorrell’s “Shit Black Girls Say” version, I choked mid-chuckle. Both videos refer to adult women as “girls,” and portray them as weak, stupid, silly, bad with technology, and helpless. And in Sorrell’s version, a part about black women being stuck in abusive relationships is too disturbing given that they are more likely to be victims of domestic violence than white women.

Then came “Shit Asian Girls Say,” which surprisingly saw very little in terms of critique:

Some of these videos sparked heavy internal debates, like “Shit Spanish Girls Say:”

The comments on the YouTube video ranged from “This video =﻿ all my Spanish friends” and “I am puertorrican and I found this video extremely hilarious and right on! :0 OH MAA GAAD MAAAAAAAA! I do it all﻿ the time!” to “BTW all this shit is Nuyorican and Dominican shit. Don’t disgrace my island.” Many commenters tried to distance themselves from the video:

@mymailbox4404 Yeah, I agree. It’s﻿ super embarrassing for Latinos. Caribbeans in particular. Now with that title, they get to attach some ghetto to my people too, lol. No biggie though. Most people on here know these are not Spanish people. But even to classy Puerto Ricans, this must be embarrassing. Did you see all the comments saying “This is sooo my family” or “I talk and act just like that”, like they are proud of this trashy lifestyle. It’s embarrassing.

IslenoGutierrez

And some good old ethnicity and nationality based prejudice:

@mymailbox4404 You are right. It’s taking the title of my people (Spaniards) and attaching ghetto trash to it for the world to see on youtube. All I﻿ can say is wow. que vamos hacer? Lol.

But while there are some interesting interpretations of racial stereotypes (white girls eat chips, black girls eat Cheetos, Asian girls eat Pocky, and I couldn’t quite make out what was on the bag in the Spanish video) and some annoyingly persistent gender stereotypes (CAN NO ONE USE A COMPUTER WITHOUT ASSISTANCE?!?! Oh wait, Spanish girls can.) I’m a bit more interested in the aftermath when people started using the meme for social commentary. While there were definitely people using the meme to advance their racist opinions of certain groups of people say, without the wink-nudge insider cred that the above videos rely on to be funny, the meme started mutating, turning the stereotypes in on themselves.

First, the original videos sparked some rebuttals, from women parodying men. Reminiscent of battle (of the sexes) rap popular in the 1990s, the videos featured women performing in drag giving commentary on the men in they know (accompanied by the inevitable “women just aren’t funny” comments).

There’s “Shit Guys Say” – which I have to admit feels like a quicker version of Jersey Shore:

And then there’s “Shit Black Guys Say:”

(Notice the commentary on how often men comment on women’s bodies in both of the videos.)

There are also challenges to the ideas of a unified experience for any group. Look at all the variations on “Shit Gay Guys Say”.

There’s this one:

There’s “Shit Black Gays Say:”

And a part 2:

And “Shit Southern Gay Guys Say:”

It’s notable that these videos are the principals representing themselves (as opposed to someone else’s interpretation of them) – perhaps since these groups are still so invisible in the public eye that no one else but them could speak to their experience.

With a slight tweak, the meme becomes social critique. Just by adding “to” and a second group, the meme found new life.

[T]hings took a turn when Franchesca Ramsey released Shit White Girls Say … to Black Girls, which quickly inspired Nicola Foti’s Shit Girls Say to Gay Guys, and Sameer Asad Gardezi and Kosha Patel then unleashed Shit White Girls Say … to Brown Girls”. Each video showcases a bewigged Ramsey, Foti and Patel reeling off a list of the most awful things your best white girlfriend has ever said. These videos skewer that verbal equivalent of friendly fire: friendly prejudice, if you will.

What’s friendly prejudice? The most common defence of racism is: “But I didn’t intend to be racist.” This response relies on the idea that if we didn’t intend to offend someone, then their feelings can’t possibly be hurt. The Shit X Says to Y videos are delightfully validating because they show that those with the genuinely lovely intentions of being your friend and seeking commonality with you can still be rude and hurtful.

Unsurprisingly, the Shit X Says to Y meme has itself been called offensive. As a commenter on the NPR blog says, “if the roles were reversed … Jesse [Jackson] & [Al] Sharpton, would be involved, lawsuits filed, perhaps riots …” But the roles can’t be reversed. The reason why relationships between white and non-white people, or straight people and gay people are fraught, is because of our history – long gone, recent or ongoing. Racist, homophobic or simply thoughtless comments are insulting not just in and of themselves, but because they are a bilious reminder of the times when straight, white people have dehumanised and denied other groups their human rights. Of course, non-white and gay people can say nasty or even prejudicial things to white and straight people, but those things don’t deliver the sting that comes from decades of being on the wrong end of an unequal relationship (and could I recommend further viewing on this topic: comedian Kumail Nanjiani’s “Racists”).

What bothers some viewers about the Shit X Says to Y meme is that it targets only white women. Critics have said of Foti in particular that it is always sexist when men use women as the brunt of any joke. But privilege does not work in debits and credits, whereby your lack of cultural power as a gay person is paid back by your stores of cultural power as a man. A white woman can be racist to an Asian man, just as a straight black woman can be homophobic to a gay white man. These videos are important because they ask all viewers – regardless of what power they have and what power they lack – to reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them licence to cross the line.

Due to the popularity of the meme, people are reconsidering the impact of their words to their friends, which is the point of this next batch of takes. Exploring the dynamics of relationships between friends can be painful, but what these users created basically amount to humorous public service announcements.

Outside of “Shit Black Girls Say to White Girls,” none of the other videos got anywhere near the amount of play that “Shit Girls Say” and “Shit Black Girls Say enjoyed.” Maybe that’s because, as a culture, we are accustomed to laughing at stereotypes, but we aren’t prepared to unpack how we perpetuate them.

One redeeming thing about the depictions of white women in the SWWS to __W vids might be that “they” affect tentativeness rather than the boolean certainty that is often seen as more acceptable coming from men.

In most movies and TV shows, that tentative quality is pejorative and annoying (why can’t women be seen as instantly decisive since they often are?). In this case, it could help white women understand how to be less hurtful — not because they have to be, but because they see why.

I might view myself as the silent recipient of unintentional insults, but maybe the white woman who watches could see herself in that portrayal of constant self-revision and actually hear where the revisions should take hold. Asking about a Sari might seem acceptable to someone who hasn’t heard it herself so many times it’s like having a wall of You-Are-That drop in front of her, but the person who watches the vid without having to self-justify might get the point and not say that ever again.

One of the great things about these videos is that even though the title focuses on the speaker, the real “subject” of the videos is the listener – i.e. whomever the speaker is speaking to. That’s why SWGSTBG is so damn awesome, because it’s really about the listener – the Black woman – and the frustration she feels. The vast majority of Black women have heard these lines over and over again from white women. Notice the plural – white women, not every white woman. That’s how, I think, the video can get away with “stereotyping”. The video is dealing with stereotypes of Black women more than with White women, by demonstrating how stereotypes of Black women are embodied in the speech of her white girlfriends. I guess the point I’m trying to make is this: The video isn’t really about white women at all. Rather it’s about illuminating the stereotypes of Black woman and how pervasive they are.

As for the SGS and the rest, I think the reasoning is the same. Yes they’re sexist but the videos are more a commentary, to me at least, about the listener. What are dudes listening to? What are they hearing? What kind of lines are they signalling out? The answers to those questions are in the videos and, for me, they say much more about the REAL subject of the video, which is the man behind the camera.

The first one I saw was SWGSTBG, which I adored, but I thought to myself “dollars to donuts the original that kicked this off was sexist as all hell.” And I’m not surprised to hear it was true. The second people start some kind of meme that is popular on Facebook? You just know the lowest common denominator is going to jump right out in a big ol’ orgy of Showing Their Asses.

I have appreciated the kind of “hollaback” quality of the ones following in SWGSTBG’s footsteps – particularly “Shit You Say to Fat People” and “Shit Homophobes Say,” which is just… news clips of the Republican candidates, basically.

Elusis

The first one I saw was SWGSTBG, which I adored, but I thought to myself “dollars to donuts the original that kicked this off was sexist as all hell.” And I’m not surprised to hear it was true. The second people start some kind of meme that is popular on Facebook? You just know the lowest common denominator is going to jump right out in a big ol’ orgy of Showing Their Asses.

I have appreciated the kind of “hollaback” quality of the ones following in SWGSTBG’s footsteps – particularly “Shit You Say to Fat People” and “Shit Homophobes Say,” which is just… news clips of the Republican candidates, basically.

Elusis

The first one I saw was SWGSTBG, which I adored, but I thought to myself “dollars to donuts the original that kicked this off was sexist as all hell.” And I’m not surprised to hear it was true. The second people start some kind of meme that is popular on Facebook? You just know the lowest common denominator is going to jump right out in a big ol’ orgy of Showing Their Asses.

I have appreciated the kind of “hollaback” quality of the ones following in SWGSTBG’s footsteps – particularly “Shit You Say to Fat People” and “Shit Homophobes Say,” which is just… news clips of the Republican candidates, basically.

Trans Fix

It has made our year that so many people have enjoyed and linked to “Stuff Cis People Say….”, and I think that seeing it on Racialicious, TGriot, Bilerico as well as many other blogs that we have both enjoyed and highly respect has made our decade! Thank you so much.

Trans Fix

It has made our year that so many people have enjoyed and linked to “Stuff Cis People Say….”, and I think that seeing it on Racialicious, TGriot, Bilerico as well as many other blogs that we have both enjoyed and highly respect has made our decade! Thank you so much.

Trans Fix

It has made our year that so many people have enjoyed and linked to “Stuff Cis People Say….”, and I think that seeing it on Racialicious, TGriot, Bilerico as well as many other blogs that we have both enjoyed and highly respect has made our decade! Thank you so much.

Osej Serratos

I think that it’s important to note little instances in our everyday lives that we may shake off as a joke, I do believe it’s little instances like these that create a type of lining in our sub-conscience that creates acceptance from both the speaker and the audience allowing these occurrences to go unnoticed to the naked eye.

Osej Serratos

I think that it’s important to note little instances in our everyday lives that we may shake off as a joke, I do believe it’s little instances like these that create a type of lining in our sub-conscience that creates acceptance from both the speaker and the audience allowing these occurrences to go unnoticed to the naked eye.

Osej Serratos

I think that it’s important to note little instances in our everyday lives that we may shake off as a joke, I do believe it’s little instances like these that create a type of lining in our sub-conscience that creates acceptance from both the speaker and the audience allowing these occurrences to go unnoticed to the naked eye.

arcode

“What bothers some viewers about the Shit X Says to Y meme is that it targets only white women. Critics have said of Foti in particular that it is always sexist when men use women as the brunt of any joke. But privilege does not work in debits and credits, whereby your lack of cultural power as a gay person is paid back by your stores of cultural power as a man. A white woman can be racist to an Asian man, just as a straight black woman can be homophobic to a gay white man. These videos are important because they ask all viewers – regardless of what power they have and what power they lack – to reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them licence to cross the line.”

Your lack of cultural power as a woman is also not paid back by your stores of cultural power as white. An Asian man can be sexist to a white woman, just as a gay white man can be sexist and racist to a straight black woman.

So while I agree with Thea Lim that it’s important to ask people to “reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them license to cross the line.” it is *also* important not to wave aside the critique that the meme largely targets women.

Initial popular versions of the “Shit X Says” meme targeted or made fun of “girls”, and the most popular versions of the “Shite X Says To Y” meme also target girls. I think that’s worth engaging with.

It’s also important to ask if the popular reception of these videos does anything to get people to consider if their relationships with *women* “grant them license to cross the line.” When does ascribing racism, homophobia and sexism to “white girls” become an exploitation of sexist stereotypes that relies on the kind of debits and credits reasoning mentioned in this post?

There may be some parallels between this and reactions to the vote on California’s Prop. 8 that largely ascribed homophobia to “the black community.” Sure, being black does not mean you can’t be homophobic, and there are issues there worth talking about, but when a vote that very obviously could not have happened without non-black people is being overwhelmingly blamed on black people, there are also issues with racism worth addressing. White women can clearly be racist and homophobic, but it’s also a problem when racism and homophobia are being ascribed primarily to white women. What, no one else is racist or homophobic? Or sexist?

arcode

“What bothers some viewers about the Shit X Says to Y meme is that it targets only white women. Critics have said of Foti in particular that it is always sexist when men use women as the brunt of any joke. But privilege does not work in debits and credits, whereby your lack of cultural power as a gay person is paid back by your stores of cultural power as a man. A white woman can be racist to an Asian man, just as a straight black woman can be homophobic to a gay white man. These videos are important because they ask all viewers – regardless of what power they have and what power they lack – to reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them licence to cross the line.”

Your lack of cultural power as a woman is also not paid back by your stores of cultural power as white. An Asian man can be sexist to a white woman, just as a gay white man can be sexist and racist to a straight black woman.

So while I agree with Thea Lim that it’s important to ask people to “reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them license to cross the line.” it is *also* important not to wave aside the critique that the meme largely targets women.

Initial popular versions of the “Shit X Says” meme targeted or made fun of “girls”, and the most popular versions of the “Shite X Says To Y” meme also target girls. I think that’s worth engaging with.

It’s also important to ask if the popular reception of these videos does anything to get people to consider if their relationships with *women* “grant them license to cross the line.” When does ascribing racism, homophobia and sexism to “white girls” become an exploitation of sexist stereotypes that relies on the kind of debits and credits reasoning mentioned in this post?

There may be some parallels between this and reactions to the vote on California’s Prop. 8 that largely ascribed homophobia to “the black community.” Sure, being black does not mean you can’t be homophobic, and there are issues there worth talking about, but when a vote that very obviously could not have happened without non-black people is being overwhelmingly blamed on black people, there are also issues with racism worth addressing. White women can clearly be racist and homophobic, but it’s also a problem when racism and homophobia are being ascribed primarily to white women. What, no one else is racist or homophobic? Or sexist?

arcode

“What bothers some viewers about the Shit X Says to Y meme is that it targets only white women. Critics have said of Foti in particular that it is always sexist when men use women as the brunt of any joke. But privilege does not work in debits and credits, whereby your lack of cultural power as a gay person is paid back by your stores of cultural power as a man. A white woman can be racist to an Asian man, just as a straight black woman can be homophobic to a gay white man. These videos are important because they ask all viewers – regardless of what power they have and what power they lack – to reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them licence to cross the line.”

Your lack of cultural power as a woman is also not paid back by your stores of cultural power as white. An Asian man can be sexist to a white woman, just as a gay white man can be sexist and racist to a straight black woman.

So while I agree with Thea Lim that it’s important to ask people to “reconsider if their best friendship with non-white and gay people grants them license to cross the line.” it is *also* important not to wave aside the critique that the meme largely targets women.

Initial popular versions of the “Shit X Says” meme targeted or made fun of “girls”, and the most popular versions of the “Shite X Says To Y” meme also target girls. I think that’s worth engaging with.

It’s also important to ask if the popular reception of these videos does anything to get people to consider if their relationships with *women* “grant them license to cross the line.” When does ascribing racism, homophobia and sexism to “white girls” become an exploitation of sexist stereotypes that relies on the kind of debits and credits reasoning mentioned in this post?

There may be some parallels between this and reactions to the vote on California’s Prop. 8 that largely ascribed homophobia to “the black community.” Sure, being black does not mean you can’t be homophobic, and there are issues there worth talking about, but when a vote that very obviously could not have happened without non-black people is being overwhelmingly blamed on black people, there are also issues with racism worth addressing. White women can clearly be racist and homophobic, but it’s also a problem when racism and homophobia are being ascribed primarily to white women. What, no one else is racist or homophobic? Or sexist?

http://volidity-report.blogspot.com/ Herrence Meritocracy

Ok, but ALL of these videos, and the humor within, are based upon stereotypes, whether it is “girls are befuddled by technology” or “white girls are often racially insensitive to their black female friends.” The reasoning behind each video is personal and anecdotal, as is our own individual propensity to like and affirm the theme of each video.

On that note, I imagine more people can readily identify female friends who have problems with computers and electronic devices than have (or recognize that they have) white friends who make racially insensitive comments to black friends. On a place like YouTube, which reflects the lowest common denominator of the internet, we really should not be surprised to find that “we are accustomed to laughing at stereotypes, but we aren’t prepared to unpack how we perpetuate them.”

Sol_dier

Check yourself & your privilege.

I can guarentee you that more black people can identify with white ‘friends’ who make racially insensitive comments to them that with women who have problems with tech.

I have never come across a black person who hasn’t had a racially insensitive comment from a friend

al oof

i think you’d be hard pressed to find a white person with black friends who hasn’t said at least one of the things in swgstbg.

and i have as many male friends who have trouble with computers, so while i guess i could identify with having female friends who have trouble with computers, they might as well be saying they like to eat pizza.

http://volidity-report.blogspot.com/ Herrence Meritocracy

Ok, but ALL of these videos, and the humor within, are based upon stereotypes, whether it is “girls are befuddled by technology” or “white girls are often racially insensitive to their black female friends.” The reasoning behind each video is personal and anecdotal, as is our own individual propensity to like and affirm the theme of each video.

On that note, I imagine more people can readily identify female friends who have problems with computers and electronic devices than have (or recognize that they have) white friends who make racially insensitive comments to black friends. On a place like YouTube, which reflects the lowest common denominator of the internet, we really should not be surprised to find that “we are accustomed to laughing at stereotypes, but we aren’t prepared to unpack how we perpetuate them.”

http://volidity-report.blogspot.com/ Herrence Meritocracy

Ok, but ALL of these videos, and the humor within, are based upon stereotypes, whether it is “girls are befuddled by technology” or “white girls are often racially insensitive to their black female friends.” The reasoning behind each video is personal and anecdotal, as is our own individual propensity to like and affirm the theme of each video.

On that note, I imagine more people can readily identify female friends who have problems with computers and electronic devices than have (or recognize that they have) white friends who make racially insensitive comments to black friends. On a place like YouTube, which reflects the lowest common denominator of the internet, we really should not be surprised to find that “we are accustomed to laughing at stereotypes, but we aren’t prepared to unpack how we perpetuate them.”

Anonymous

most of the videos about shit girls say are made by men, and pretty sexist. however! i think the window they have opened for the critical ones to appear is really important! the fact that the critical ‘shit’ videos aren’t getting as much attention is logical, because it would mean a lot of the audience would have to question their own behaviour and beliefs – but even if a couple of them do (and they do, because they comment), and question themselves, then it was worth it.

i hadn’t seen the one about rape survivors. it pisses me off, but it’s amazing on the part of those women and really important as a message!

Luki4

“Outside of “Shit Black Girls Say to White Girls,” none of the other videos got anywhere near the amount of play that “Shit Girls Say” and “Shit Black Girls Say enjoyed.” Maybe that’s because, as a culture, we are accustomed to laughing at stereotypes, but we aren’t prepared to unpack how we perpetuate them.”

It seems to me that this isn’t a racial issue as a logical issue. The first thing out of the gate always gets the most attention (SGS), then the second thing out of the gate (as SBGSTWG was) gets about half as much, and then everything AFTER that gets a fourth, an eight, etc. Everything mentioned after those first two were just kind of meh. Tag-ons. A dollar short and several days late.

Anonymous

That idea holds – but doesn’t at the same time. So SGS was first, then SBGS (hence the millions on those). SAGS was in a link round up and gets name checked with the first two in round ups but it only at abt 1 million. The Guys and Black Guys videos came out before Francescas but didn’t get near as much play – they both got about a million views over all.

SWGSTBG was late in the meme, but the first of the shit xxx say to xxx. She got more play, but as commenters questioned initially, would it have gotten so much love if it was aimed at white people generally, or was it because it singled out white girls? I wouldn’t expect the others to match the popularity of the first, but many are still in a few hundred thousand views, despite being fairly quick out of the gate.

And overall, the things that play on stereotypes are more popular than the things that aim to illuminate stereotypes.

http://molecularshyness.wordpress.com jen*

I recently watched *ish New Yorkers Say and it was funny/cool. I definitely think the meme can go bad, but there are cute things that come from it too.

http://molecularshyness.wordpress.com jen*

I recently watched *ish New Yorkers Say and it was funny/cool. I definitely think the meme can go bad, but there are cute things that come from it too.

al oof

the thing about that one is that it was things new yorkers say to eachother. it was made by the members of the group they were portraying. i think that helped it be funny and inoffensive.

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