Originally posted by DAZ21
I don't think you can really hate a material object. We may say we hate money or bombs, etc, etc...but we don't hate the object itself, more likely
the things that the said object does.

So we hate the problems pertaining to these objects in reality. These problems can mostly be directed to the men which created them.

Not sure who to blame for the mushrooms though???

Hm, well, by that logic, couldn't you say we can't really hate people then? We can't really hate murderers, only the disgust they make us feel when
they murder for example? Why stop at people? We shouldn't hate men, our hate should be directed toward whatever made man the way he is? etc

Originally posted by DAZ21
I don't think you can really hate a material object. We may say we hate money or bombs, etc, etc...but we don't hate the object itself, more likely
the things that the said object does.

So we hate the problems pertaining to these objects in reality. These problems can mostly be directed to the men which created them.

Not sure who to blame for the mushrooms though???

Hm, well, by that logic, couldn't you say we can't really hate people then? We can't really hate murderers, only the disgust they make us feel when
they murder for example? Why stop at people? We shouldn't hate men, our hate should be directed toward whatever made man the way he is? etc

A man's upbringing is what creates his personality. You are right to a certain extent though.

This is why we get the abused becomes the abuser theme continuing in perpetuity. Sometimes the abusers, although we hate them, aren't to
blame....well they are partially, but they hate what was done to them and envy the victim and thus re-enact what was done to them.

So yes we can always look back to a further source of blame, but ultimately anyone who performs an ill favoured action is also to blame.

but ultimately anyone who performs an ill favoured action is also to blame.

I couldn't agree more. I think now I see why some people didn't like my question. I in no way was making a excuse for such behavior. I just
attempted to show what I and many psychiatrist believe is at it's roots.

Originally posted by DAZ21
A man's upbringing is what creates his personality. You are right to a certain extent though.

This is why we get the abused becomes the abuser theme continuing in perpetuity. Sometimes the abusers, although we hate them, aren't to blame....well
they are partially, but they hate what was done to them and envy the victim and thus re-enact what was done to them.

So yes we can always look back to a further source of blame, but ultimately anyone who performs an ill favoured action is also to blame.

Fair enough, I see your point. Although, in your previous post, you said you don't believe we can really hate material objects, only "what they do".
Like a mushroom screwing with our taste buds. So, if we can hate that feeling of "bad taste", where would the envy be in that?

I just wonder why you feel it's not possible to hate something material, but it is possible to hate something abstract like a bad reaction.

If a man's upbringing creates his personality, then that would mean we would hate his upbringing if it leads him to make daft decisions later in life?
I agree though about assigning blame to actions. But it's not like a man has full control over his upbringing to begin with, right?

If we can hate an "abusive upbringing" where would the envy be in that?

Not trying to be overly argumentative. Just throwing some questions out there for the sake of argument. I will say though, I don't buy that envy is
the core of all hate, not by a long shot.

but ultimately anyone who performs an ill favoured action is also to blame.

I couldn't agree more. I think now I see why some people didn't like my question. I in no way was making a excuse for such behavior. I just
attempted to show what I and many psychiatrist believe is at it's roots.

Originally posted by DAZ21
A man's upbringing is what creates his personality. You are right to a certain extent though.

This is why we get the abused becomes the abuser theme continuing in perpetuity. Sometimes the abusers, although we hate them, aren't to
blame....well they are partially, but they hate what was done to them and envy the victim and thus re-enact what was done to them.

So yes we can always look back to a further source of blame, but ultimately anyone who performs an ill favoured action is also to blame.

Fair enough, I see your point. Although, in your previous post, you said you don't believe we can really hate material objects, only "what they
do". Like a mushroom screwing with our taste buds. So, if we can hate that feeling of "bad taste", where would the envy be in that?

I just wonder why you feel it's not possible to hate something material, but it is possible to hate something abstract like a bad reaction.

If a man's upbringing creates his personality, then that would mean we would hate his upbringing if it leads him to make daft decisions later in
life? I agree though about assigning blame to actions. But it's not like a man has full control over his upbringing to begin with, right?

If we can hate an "abusive upbringing" where would the envy be in that?

Not trying to be overly argumentative. Just throwing some questions out there for the sake of argument. I will say though, I don't buy that envy is
the core of all hate, not by a long shot.

edit on 22-2-2013 by namine because: (no reason given)

No, I don't believe It's possible to hate any reaction or any stimulation of the senses. You may say for instance, that you hate pain but you don't
hate pain, you hate the the individual inducing the pain, or yourself for being clumsy. Don't blame the kettle for burning you, because you should
have known it was hot, for example.

No we don't hate the man's upbringing, It's unfortunate but in the end It's him as an individual that has reacted on impulses from his
personality. Ok, his upbringing has created envy for a life that he never had, and might make him make daft decisions, but It's upto him whether he
acts on any impulses.

We can't hate his upbringing per se, but merely the parents or guardians that contributed. The envy from them either came from a prior abusive
relationship, or another alternative situation. Your going to get the belt because daddy got the belt, for example.

Envy doesn't have to pertain to a wanting, but can be a jealously of others where the individual in question acts to remove the desired situation.

Originally posted by DAZ21No, I don't believe It's possible to hate any reaction or any stimulation of the senses. You may say for instance, that you hate pain but you don't
hate pain, you hate the the individual inducing the pain, or yourself for being clumsy.

Well then, I may say I hate how bad the mushroom tastes, but I don't hate how bad it tastes, I hate the mushroom (which should be impossible?), or
myself for eating it?

Anyway, I agree with the rest of your post, most of it anyway.

I simply don't understand this obsession with attaching envy to every instance of
hate, even where it stretches logic for no good reason. For example, you could hate the mere concept or act of abuse, without necessarily attaching an
instance of it to anyone and then forcing envy into the equation to keep your formula satisfied. Maybe you just feel physical abuse is appalling
because the notion of violating human rights is appalling? It seems like you are taking something straight forward and tossing in a bunch of variables
that don't necessarily fit in order to craft some sort of sophisticated findings.

I think envy and hate are two separate things, and although they may intertwine in various circumstances, the presence of one doesn't guarantee the
presence of the other.

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