Posted
by
CmdrTacoon Wednesday May 30, 2007 @09:36AM
from the ok-admit-it-you-want-one dept.

longacre writes "Popular Mechanics takes the Microsoft Surface system for a hands-on video test drive. To be announced at today's D5 conference, the coffee-table-esqe device allows manipulation from multiple touch points, while infrared, WiFi and Bluetooth team up to allow wireless transfers between devices placed on top of it, such as cameras and cell phones. Expected to launch before the end of the year in the $5,000-$10,000 range, the devices might not make their way under many Christmas trees, but will find the insides of Starwood hotels, Harrah's casinos and T-Mobile shops."

Microsoft were a big investor in The Island, and since this technology has been in secret development since 2001 (apparently under the codename Milan) it's not too much of a stretch to think that the interface from the 2005 film was directly inspired by this product.

MU-Columbia had (and may still have) a computer lab with Sun kit built into desks, so that you would look down into the CRT through a clear acrylic surface. This was in 1997 when I was visiting different universities.

What, so you are saying you don't read/. and 'er' borrow ideas from it? I thought the exchange of ideas was the whole point of/.. You just can't claim them as you own, borrowing is OK, permanently pilfering just sucks;).

All my ideas are free to use. Conditional. You use mine you give me yours.

This is so "Star Trek" to the geek in me. Finally, a way to use the computing processing power available in a method about anyone can use. Now to get it into a package that is thinner and doesn't require the supporting table.

The ease of use that is apparent is key, the idea is there, its the software that makes it all the more so amazing. I cannot wait till this type of interface is the standard

Well, according to the article, they eventually want to get this technology embedded into walls and ceilings. Just imagine the possibilities...beyond porn directly above your bed of course...

For example, imagine if your 'computer wall' could display an electronic companion that followed you around the house (naked) and did various tasks that you asked of it. (sort of like a nude clipy) The possibilities are endless.

There were some videos a while back of a similar system being demo'd. It showed a system which allowed for multiple simultaneous touches to be detected, so you could actually grab a photograph and resize it by pulling the corners. You could give commands by chording touches on the screen. It looked really interesting, but I can't find it anymore - anybody know where I can find them again?

And there was yet another that allowed you to mix music and create synthesized effects in real time by arranging various oddly-shaped prisms on the surface. I have two (large) videos of that but I don't know where they came from.

You seem to be thinking of Reactable [upf.edu]. The main difference is that Reactable uses a camera and fiducial symbols. Reactable is really a great and low-cost system, which works fairly well (just sketching one of the symbols with marker got it recognizable). They've segregated the optical processing and the application layer very well from what I could tell, which should lead to clean and easy apps.

MS appears to be using a combination, as the guy showed some optical symbols on the bottom of objects as well.

Snippet... you just run your credit card through a reader built into the table (or, when RFID cards have become the norm, just slap your card on the tabletop) and your new phone is paid for. And the casinos are looking into this to? I guess some black/grey hatters will be heading over to http://www.rfidvirus.org/ [rfidvirus.org] in pre-anticipation of those Texas Hold-em games...

Interesting to see briefly a little on what's happened to Jeff Han (formed his own company producing multi touch displays for business and military, including wall sized as demoed in the vid, easy to do as it's a projection display) as well as more footage of Microsoft's new toy.

I find this very interesting from a marketing perspective. They are promoting this as if it was a product, and yet it isn't on sale - and even the implementations they are talking about (T-Mobile, Sheraton Hotels) are really trials with partners that won't be happening until the end of next year.

So what is this all about? The Vista and Office '07 launches haven't gone well from a marketing perspective - there has been a lot of press basically saying that Microsoft is losing its competitive edge. Couple that with the iPhone, and the fact that Apple is almost certainly going to be launching new products with multi-touch capabilities over the next year or so, and I think it is clear what is going on. Microsoft really want to improve their image in relation to Apple - they don't want Apple to be seen as the innovator and them as the company that's lost it.

Notice on the website [microsoft.com] that they have a section called "origins" giving the history of the technology within Microsoft - I think they are trying to reverse the image that they copy Apple. Now when the touch-screen iMac is launched (or whatever) Microsoft will have done a fairly good job at taking some of the shine off the launch, even though they don't have a consumer product in the area, nor will they have for some years.

Note, I am not saying that Microsoft are not serious about this as a product -- just that this news launch (about a product that doesn't exist) is all about addressing people's perceptions of the company, and trying to piss on Apple's fire a bit.

Unfortunately as is typical for M$ it just all comes of a copies of other peoples existing ideas. People have been dreaming about large screen very high resolution interactive work surfaces for years. M$ of blows it by target the wrong audience, coffee table surfaces in Hotels, typical, all flash and no substance.

The real target audience should have been architects and engineers etc. using CAD but that would have taken at least half a brain. They would pay the price for the gained productivity if done cor

Actually just the opposite. Plenty of firms have been selling these devices to engineers for several years. But the average public never sees them. MS wants to get these out so that the average person is using them, then in a couple years when prices drop these average people will buy them for their homes. A few hundred or sales versus a few million.

In the movies, most any movie where people are using some screen only device, it is only to convey the message or action to the audience, not to actually do work. Sure, maybe some interactive advertising expensive display in a place of bussiness, but other than that it can't do anything. How could one possibly convey anything but the most simple, and expected, communications with such a device? Try it yourself, just walk around today pointing at things instead of talking, and see how "easy" that is.

Microsoft has a long history of announcing new technologies long before they really exist in order to prevent a competitor from gaining marketing hype and momentum. This strategy goes right back to the earliest Windows versions -- you can read lots about this from an MS programmer's perspective in Barbarians [amazon.ca].

Since Apple is about to announce their "top secret" features in Leopard, it seems obvious it will be this sort of touch screen technology and that Microsoft is trying to steal Apple's thunder by announcing this vaperware.

Back in 1980, when I was a hardcore high school AD&D player, my friends and I used to talk about how great it would be to have a table, with a computer inside, for gaming.

At the time, there were some utilities that could help with housekeeping in the game, but it was really clunky to have a whole computer there behind the DM's screen. Imagine, your character sheet and virtual dice right in front of you; automated tracking for dice rolls, combat and spell recovery; fancy graphics for your map, characters, and monsters; maybe even a soundtrack and audio effects.

And yes, WoW has all the features I just described, and more, but the element of everyone getting together around a table and playing face-to-face cannot be replaced.

Needless to say, I want one of these, especially for when I retire and go back to gaming full-time:-).

Apple has been patenting the hell out of the multitouch UI concept, and I can't imagine this is going to slip by Steve Jobs without a fight. Apple purchased FingerWorks and owns most of the concepts shown in that video.

Hidden in the recent demo for the Iphone was a glimpse of Apple's multitouch technology. If you knew where to look, it was hidden in plain site during the demo of the photo album and rolodex functions.

There is more than one way to implement a solution, just because this is similar to what Fingerworks did doesn't mean they are infringing on patents. I do believe Jeff Han was developing this (for a while) at the same time as Apple were putting the technology into a phone.

Apple has been patenting the hell out of the multitouch UI concept, and I can't imagine this is going to slip by Steve Jobs without a fight. Apple purchased FingerWorks and owns most of the concepts shown in that video.

The Surface has been in development since 2001, it uses multi-touch technology completely different from the one on the iphone. Not to mention there was multitouch interfaces before Apple and before Microsoft.

Plus I want to see Apple sue Microsoft about it. They don't stand a chance.

Is it just me, or does the choice of hardware technologies seem a bit, well, crappy? Back projection - that means the table itself is huge underneath - if you're eating in a restaurant you want a table you can streach your legs under.

And infa-red cameras tracking the movement..? Notice when they do the paint demo - it looks like the system isn't actually very accurate. They do blobby finger painting, but if I was going to buy ones of these I would want something I could draw fine, accurate lines on with a pen. And I'm not convinced of the idea of having to put barcodes on everything so the system can recognise them.

Surely a flat-screen technology (TFT, Plasma, whatever) coupled with one of the newer multi-touch sensitive technologies would be better?

Surely a flat-screen technology (TFT, Plasma, whatever) coupled with one of the newer multi-touch sensitive technologies would be better?

Um, not really.

First thing to note is that it is not 'multi-touch', but image sensing input, so it can distiguish all aspects of a hand, pen, or recognize items placed on the surface, this is far far beyond a multi-point touch screen technology.

This also means that with work, barcodes on the items will not always be necessary, as the system will eventually be able to image recognize devices, however this will be an evolution, just like developing drivers for every device.

The second thing is they are using DLP for imaging. DLP has features over Plasma and LCD in both refresh speed, contrast ratios, etc.(Anyone that owns a projector for watching movies and using their computer in the last 5 years knows the benefits of DLP.)

I don't know how thin this specific device will get, but a rear projected image can get fairly thin using a distorted directional optical system, so they could make the display a couple of inches thick if needed. Go look up some of the new DLP display technologies that are being pushed for mobile devices, because they can get the size down to smaller than most people expect.

this emerged at least partially out of their previous efforts with "media pcs." On of the obvious (but largely unspoken) problem they ran into there is that the PC with mouse and keyboard is just a shitty way to interact with media. Touchscreens, on the other hand, obviously aren't. So I think that despite the fact that they are initially of course selling this only to businesses, that will be the ultimate placement of this technology. It finally allows people to look at video, music, photos, etc, on a living room computer in a way that doesn't clash immensely with the intended atmosphere of the room. So bravo to Microsoft for making an appealing product, it'll be interesting to see what Apple's response is if this table ultimately becomes successful, as media is one of Apple's important domains. But either way, it's one of the few times MS may not be lying when they say a new paradigm is arriving. Should be fun to watch.

I work in the A&E field, and having a drafting board like this (though with a stylus) would be _very_ cool, indeed. Bump up that resolution (150-200dpi, like my laptop) and make it in a 16:10 with 26" or 32" vertical dimension and it would be a lot like drafting on paper. The extra real estate with a 16:9 would allow a real size "sheet" of space with room on the side for toolbars and/or palettes. I drool just thinking about it.

Oh, sure, you'd need an insane adapter to drive it (with about 4800x7680 resolution - QuadHD), but that's just the way things are. Now that I come to think of it, it might be useful for digital photo/image manipulation. At 200dpi, you could work with the images from the newest Hasselblad digitals at 1:1 pixel mapping. And, hey, if you've got $32k to drop on a camera body, you may as well pony up for the post processing, right?

Ever since I painted my living room, I've been having trouble selecting coordinating furniture to my fire-engine red walls. I'd been searching for a nice coffee table with a bright blue top, but could never seem to find one in just the right shade.

This looks like it just might be suitable -- I hear it's likely to turn a lovely shade of blue on a regular basis!

Many things look quite impressive in the context of a demo. The MIT Media Lab has been pulling off absolutely stunning demos for... is it a decade now? Very few of them have led directly to anything real. There's no way to tell whether this is the sort of thing like Clippy that is an impressive demo but not a useful product. But the comment that "the company's unofficial Surface showman, Jeff Gattis is a clean-cut fellow who is obviously the veteran of a thousand marketing seminars" is not confidence-inspiring. It would be much more impressive if they had demonstrated the product by letting half-a-dozen people, with no training, who had never seen the product before, try to use it.

There are some very obvious practical issues. With a vertically-oriented touchscreen, the issue was what sort of gadget you could use to prop your hands so that your arms wouldn't be trembling an aching in half an hour.

WIth a horizontally-oriented table-sized touch screen, the obvious issue is that if you put it under a thick sheet of Lexan it won't be touch-sensitive any more... and if you don't put it under a thick sheet of Lexan it won't be touch-sensitive for long.

It would be an interesting contest to see whether one of these $10,000 gadgets lasts longer in a typical American home or in a "Starwood hotel, Harrah's casino or T-Mobile shops." I figure a week, tops, before someone spills a cocktail on it or tries to see whether they can operate it with their butt.

That table would be really interesting if it could recharge devices laid on it, with "wireless power". Using magnetic induction, device batteries would have to include little rotors to "rewind" little charging dynamos pushed by rotating magnetic fields generated by the table. But that setup could banish incompatible, inefficient and schleppy wired power adapters. Devices wouldn't need to include charger HW in the product, so the entire mobile device economy could become more efficient. And portable "univers

As interesting as this development seems, I can't see myself wanting to use a device that requires me to lean over or look down for extended periods of time. The nice thing about current monitor/keyboard or laptop setups is that it allows a user to keep their head facing forward in a natural position and also provides a place to rest the arms that keeps them from tiring out. A vertical version of this unit would help the eyes and neck, but quickly tire the arms.Without any tactile feedback, it seems like a

There are applications for this sort of thing, but finger-painting isn't it.

Given that the basic property of this device is that output resolution is good and screen size is large, and input resolution is poor but you can use multiple touches, an obvious application is video editing. An interface for quickly putting together a news show would find a high-end market. There are tools for this now, like Avid NewsCutter, but they rely heavily on keyboard commands and have too many modes.

The big advantage of multi-touch is that it's a way out of the mode limitations of a single-pointer interface. Right now, your options are usually verb-object (get into mode, select thing), or object-verb (select thing, go to menu to indicate what to do with it.) This breaks down when you need to talk about more than one thing at a time. With multi-touch, there are more options.

"There are applications for this sort of thing, but finger-painting isn't it."You lack imagination.My daughter would LOVE that. I would love it too, because then I can save all here 'finger paint' drawing digitally. So I can have them in perfect form, forever.

Yes I realize there is a tactile quality of using actual paint, and I wouldn't take that away from my kids, this is just another option. FYI I actually have an eazle in my living room that my kids can use whenever they want.

I think it is really a great product, very interesting, everything in the demo seems to simple to use, very Apple like. Microsoft has taken a clue because it seems something like Apple would do when it comes to ease of use. Just placing a memory stick on the table downloads its contents? Brilliant! I'm really happy that something like this is coming out, lets just hope it gets to us mere mortals sooner rather than later.

sorry but no. I saw this demonstrated 3+ years ago at MIT by a couple of EE and CS students (I forgot their names) working on multipoint touch interfaces. They created almost everything I saw in that example/demo video, except the mockup of the transfer to phone.

That are not innovating this, Students at MIT did this before them and they either hired those students, or copied their work.

Oh Cripes, throw me a technology idea that no one else has thought of first. I challenge you. It's likely that I can name some obscure program on my Amiga or find a Star Trek gadget that did the same thing. Computer software and hardware is evolutionary, and ideas that come to market are almost never ever completely original. The point is, who can polish the idea, make it usable and find a market willing to pay the price for it first.

Oh Cripes, throw me a technology idea that no one else has thought of first. I challenge you.

Oh I cannot resist. How about..... an electromagnetic colorectal implant. It can be used to stick your keys, cellphone, etc to your waist w/o need for pouches or a belt, it helps you... uh, stick to metal seats better? Oh, and you can make interesting light shows by shakin' your booty next to CRTs. Just don't walk too close to the knife bock in your kitchen with it turned on!

I think the objection is to Microsoft claiming the invention i.e. "Microsoft Surface". The first speaker in the video says "it's the first of its kind..." which is simply not true.TED [ted.com], where I first saw the photo enlarging/spinningidea shown, isn't an obscure venue. The idea of putting objects on a touch surface and having them interact I believe was Reactable's [youtube.com] The Reactable interface showed up at a Bjork concert. Again, not an obscure venue.

Here in the UK there is a program called Dragon's Den, it's like a program where people sell their ideas to the dragons and they offer them money in exchange for a share of the company. This program featured a computerised coffee table that I think was touchscreen, but the dragons ripped it apart. I remember thinking it was a good idea, but they really did have some good arguments about why it won't have a market.

Well yeah, if it was very cheap it probably would have a market, but at a price any more than a cheap computer I can't imagine it being popular. The main feature seems to be things like showing off your family pics using it, transferring your pics to your network and so on, but really, it's too awkward to watch a movie on, do some editing, or even read with. You'd be hurting your neck. I can't really see a great deal of uses for it, at least no more than a media centre PC, especially when coupled with a lap

This was exciting and appeared to work much better when I saw it for the first time last year.Check out the Jeff Han video from last year then watch the MS video.. The original is a much smoother interface.http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/65 [ted.com]

Yeah MS added some fluff by making it interact with devices placed on top the the basic idea is not some new "Top Secret" project

The MS thingy looks like a cross between The MIT's media lab Sensetable [google.com] configuration and Jeff Hans gesture interaction software. Apart for the table reacting to the wifi products (specificly the camera) I didn't see anything that wasn;t copied from someone else there.

Yeah MS added some fluff by making it interact with devices placed on top the the basic idea is not some new "Top Secret" project

True, but the "fluff" is exactly the point. There are always two parts to a successful project: implementation and presentation. Geeks are going to flip out over the implementation, but if it is going to be presented to the general public, it has to be in a slick package, and it has to have the bells and whistles -- the "fluff" -- that make people go "oooooohhhh". Consider the iPod, which was absolutely nothing new (as witnessed by CmdrTaco's infamous offhand comment). But Apple took an existing technology and wrapped it in a shiny case and interface, and sales exploded.

It is those little stupid things, like the soft glowing ring around a drink set on the table, or the little ripple effect when a finger hits it, or the way the pictures "explode" out of the camera when it is set down, that will make Joe Six-Pack sit up and pull out his wallet.

And honestly, you think having the Surface interact with devices set on it is "fluff"? As I said above, the little graphical flourishes that happen are definitely fluff, but the concept of merely having to set a device down on the table for them to communicate is utterly simple and intuitive. I'd say that's a huge point in Surface's favor.

Each little touch you mentioned, while contributing its own degrees of wow-factor to the package, also contributes functionality.

The glowing ring -- confirmation of an established connection. Ripple effect -- an interstitial "sandbox" to ease users into this mode of interaction. Exploding pictures -- making it clear that the photos aren't being simply triggered by the phone's contact with the surface, obviously establishing their source as the phone itself.

Sure, you could pop up a centered Windows dialog for the first, have a guided tutorial for the second, and just draw in the photos starting in the upper left for the last. But the animated flourishes actually carry information, improving the interface's functionality.

The software is what might make it interesting. The other tech, in basic form, has been around for a while. For example, smarttech has front project and rear projection [smarttech.com], along with really nice software. Widgets can be dragged to locations. Touch a color and draw with your finger. Rotate the widget. Capture screen. All the cool stuff.

For commercial users, the packaging as a single compact device will be interesting. I can see this being used to enhance the Mini auto boutique, allowing the customers

TFA tried to make it sound like Mr. Softy had actually gone off and done a skunk-works type of project on this one.
Or course, they may have simply acquired technology in a fashion similar to:

*** will exercise its *** to *** by no later than *** that (i) the *** Surface (version 2 or later) *** does or will *** Surface format ("Surface"), and (ii) it will make a *** *** If *** does not *** it will *** within the same time frame that *** in the *** on a*** to *** Surface. *** will provide its *** to*** at le

"What is interesting is the application (implementation, and that anyone could write apps for it (as opposed to iPhone, for example)."...and for the multitouch implementation to track more than two inputs (as opposed to the iPhone, for example) and use a screen larger than a postage stamp (as opposed to the iPhone, for example).

Apple is using multitouch as a gimmick to create buzz. It doesn't actually do anything useful.

[MS uses] a screen larger than a postage stamp (as opposed to the iPhone, for example).

Apple is using multitouch as a gimmick to create buzz. It doesn't actually do anything useful.

Nothing like some facile Apple-bashing. Watch the Apple demos to see how useful multitouch is for a cell phone. And Apple's "postage stamp"-size screen will be something I can own myself & use every day, as opposed to the MS display, which costs $5k-$10k.

I disagree with the statement that the ideas have only been demonstrated too. We have been working with vendors for the last 3+ years on a multi-touch table and about 1.5 years with a multi-user, multi-touch video wall. We use Google Earth, Satellite ToolKit (STK), and a collaboration application (mark up of imagery related data) on both of them. I was very surprised to see Microsoft touting this when we have been working with this technology from multiple vendors now for a while. The only new feature as you mentioned is the wireless transfer of pictures to the device with it recognizing where the device was on the screen, and I'm not sure that it is very useful. When I transfer data, I want to store it in a directory structure or a database system rather than where I set the camera.

You are very correct! The concept has been toyed with, in idea and a few tests, but Microsoft is getting this out of concept phase and bringing what looks to be a usable product to market. The comparisons (slams) I am seeing to touchscreens is unwarranted and simply ignorant of what this product is, does and could potentially do. I am so tired of the constant Microsoft bashing - even though I am certainly no fan myself.

I imagine that Jeff Han [nyu.edu]'s own Fascinating [multi-touchscreen.com] multi-touch [nyu.edu] system [ted.com] just might not use Windows as a fundamental foundation. Don't forget about the 16 foot long interactive wall [siggraph.org] So I can imagine several patent fights coming out of this, even though the research lines are likely independent. Microsoft might even get accused of stealing somebody else's research, regardless of the facts.

Of course, this happens a little while after Apple revealed their own multitouch interface [apple.com]. Microsoft must hate that. After all, Microsoft can't get a patent on the use of fingers, even tho they can try.

I don't think this is special because we're seeing any "new" technologies here. It's special because of how the technology is implemented. Yes, at its core it's just a $5-10k computer with a large display and a multi-touch interface. But how they've managed to take various techs and put them together, it's pretty dang cool.

I don't think anyone (including Microsoft) is saying they invented the technology. That doesn't make the product any less interesting. Sometimes it takes a big company to realize ideas of people who have little chance of bringing the idea to fruition. A table-top computer is hardly a novel idea, but something a lot of people have been waiting for a long time.

In what little I could see (the video kept borking on me), it's more than just a touch screen with visual effects. It looks like you can place other items on the screen and drag things to them (the PDA, for example). That's pretty keen. Mix this with some of the zoom stuff Jef Raskin was working on and the pinch-and-spread interface for zooming that the iPhone has, and this could be very cool to use.

And if the coffee cup driver isn't digitally signed by Microsoft, you'll get a warning message every time you set it on the table.

Actually, I'd be pissed if someone set their coffee cup on my $10,000 electronic multi-touch coffee table anyway. I think the warnings should say "Even if this driver is signed by Microsoft...USE A COASTER!!.

The Coffee table uses infra-red sensors. What happens you place a a cup of hot coffee on the coffee table? what happens when you spill some? Will the coffee flowing over the table set off a touch sensor?

1 - NIR gear is incredibly cheap, whereas thermal IR gear is still very pricey.2 - There are lots of materials that are transparent to NIR but translucent to visible light. Their displays have a NIR camera and an NIR LED array in addition