That is kind of what worries me...and why i am already looking elsewhere

Originally Posted by tgp

Here's another off-the-wall scenario:

I've always said that an Android with a good WP launcher could make a better Windows Phone than WP itself. Live Tiles would work better, notifications would work better, Skype would work better, more APIs available means that apps have more access and more capabilities.

Let's imagine that Microsoft was behind this whole Nokia X scheme all along. It's a testbed to see how the theory works. If Microsoft doesn't buy Nokia's hardware division, a Nokia X is only benefiting Microsoft by using Microsoft's services. If they don't own the hardware or the OS, they have little control. As it is they are obligated to keep the WP ball rolling, whether they want to or not. BUT, Microsoft buys Nokia to take 100% control of the hardware. Now they can do whatever they want with it. Any obligations to Nokia are over. Nokia X takes off, Microsoft drops WP completely and goes all in with their forked version of Android. Microsoft benefits by hardware sales, and services on that hardware. They also free up a lot of resources since Google is doing a lot of the work for them. And, the phone works like Microsoft wished that WP could all along.

Disclaimer: this was my own idea. I am not saying it will happen, or should happen. It's just another plot to throw out there.

02-25-2014, 09:59 AM

aximtreo

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Just to add my thoughts to this discussion. Microsoft is caught between a rock and a hard place here. Yes, they will own Nokia in a few days or so. Yes they knew about the X; when? I don't know.

They can, at any time, after the sale is complete, stop the X project. But, and it's a big BUT; they can't and won't. Microsoft is still trying to get over the WP7 built phones that could not be upgraded to WP8. They can't afford to go through that by killing the X program once units start to be delivered and used.

Now, my question to you is this: If the X begins to erode the low level WP phones market share, do they do away with the 5, 6 level WP phones? I believe MS will have problems with the WP sales from top to bottom if the X series takes off. They will be encouraged to make more and better X phones with equal to or better specs than the top WP phones. Quite a dilemma on the horizon.

02-25-2014, 10:05 AM

Jas00555

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Micah Dawson

Yes Yes Yes...I get this.

This is good for Microsoft Services.....But this still not a good idea for Windows Phone which is what most of you are failing to see.
I get how this is great for microsoft services but anyone(including Microsoft themselves) who thinks this is going to suddenly encourage people to move to a lumia because they are too "Stupid" to know a Nokia X is not the same as a Nokia Lumia, is deluded beyond relief.

I am not talking about services. I get the point of the services and Nokia X....This still does nothing positive for the windows Phone and the hopes it would do something positive is essentially a deluded attempt to make what is an even worse idea than WIndows RT sound good.

Microsoft may be a Devices and Services company but don't shun and threaten your devices for the sake of just selling your services...Make a compelling reason for people to get BOTH.
Google does this with Android and Iphone.

If you must copy/use google then at least adopt their way of doing things.

I'm not saying that people are too stupid or to believe that a Nokia X and a Nokia Lumia are the same thing. That's not what they're trying to do. Read my "year 5" scenario again. If they can get these devices into the market and have people locked into their services, then in a couple of years, when they kill of the X family, they'll have people locked in to their ecosystem and when the people who use to have a Nokia X have to leave to look for another phone, their easiest choice would be Windows Phone (which at this point will have a better Skype, Outlook, Office, Onedrive, Xbox, than Android could even imagine). Sure, not EVERYONE will make that jump and some may go Android, but the majority will go to WP.

Here, let me give you a scenario and I want you to tell me what you would do. If, hypothetically, you had a iPhone and you use iTunes for your music, used apps exclusively in the app store, used iMessage and Facetime to communicate with a majority of your friends, then Apple comes tomorrow and starts selling Macs for the same price as Windows PCs (because, remember, Android and WP are competing at similar price points) and removes the ability for their iPhones to work with Windows, what would you do? My guess is that you would buy a Mac because it was within your price point and you were locked into Apple's ecosystem. You couldn't move to Android or Windows Phone because you would have to use Hangout/Skype, Xbox Music/Google Music, and the Windows Phone Store/Google Play. If they did that, then more people would buy Macs because people would be locked into the ecosystem. That's the thinking of what Microsoft is doing.

02-25-2014, 10:10 AM

Jas00555

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by aximtreo

Just to add my thoughts to this discussion. Microsoft is caught between a rock and a hard place here. Yes, they will own Nokia in a few days or so. Yes they knew about the X; when? I don't know.

They can, at any time, after the sale is complete, stop the X project. But, and it's a big BUT; they can't and won't. Microsoft is still trying to get over the WP7 built phones that could not be upgraded to WP8. They can't afford to go through that by killing the X program once units start to be delivered and used.

Now, my question to you is this: If the X begins to erode the low level WP phones market share, do they do away with the 5, 6 level WP phones? I believe MS will have problems with the WP sales from top to bottom if the X series takes off. They will be encouraged to make more and better X phones with equal to or better specs than the top WP phones. Quite a dilemma on the horizon.

Why couldn't these phones just be upgraded to whatever version of WP that exists at that time? They're introducing lower requirements for WP and there's no reason that the Nokia X family can't run WP since they have similar specs to the 520 and 620 and the 520 easily runs WP8.

02-25-2014, 10:23 AM

tgp

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Jas00555

Why couldn't these phones just be upgraded to whatever version of WP that exists at that time? They're introducing lower requirements for WP and there's no reason that the Nokia X family can't run WP since they have similar specs to the 520 and 620 and the 520 easily runs WP8.

The only way that would be feasible is if the update is OTA. I'm not sure of the logistics of installing an entirely new OS that way.

02-25-2014, 10:28 AM

Jas00555

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by tgp

The only way that would be feasible is if the update is OTA. I'm not sure of the logistics of installing an entirely new OS that way.

Well, I imagine that it would be OTA. If developing countries don't have the infrastructure to handle that, they could make it possible via a program on Windows like how people install BB leaks, except much cleaner. Anyone who would care about the update would know what to do and anyone who wouldn't care would just buy a Windows Phone when they got a new phone (so says the theory).

02-25-2014, 10:29 AM

Nogitsune Micah

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Jas00555

Why couldn't these phones just be upgraded to whatever version of WP that exists at that time? They're introducing lower requirements for WP and there's no reason that the Nokia X family can't run WP since they have similar specs to the 520 and 620 and the 520 easily runs WP8.

And there is no reason they couldn't start with windows phone to BEGIN with....or at best Dual booted both OS on the phone(Which would then likely increase both market shares as opposed to just Android). Dual Boot still sounds bad but at the very least, it would actually allow developers to actively work on both if they so desired.
Do you really think that FIVE YEARS of this is beneficial to windows phone considering how slow Microsoft is with updating WIndows Phone as is and now they have to then begin developing and keeping up with TWO OS? And if Nokia X does take off, then what will happen to windows phone then? They'll essentially start becoming how Samsung and HTC are with windows phone....Windows phone will become an after thought likely.

You keep saying they will be locked into their ecosystem and by then Windows Phone will have better versions? No offense but that's slightly deluded since Day 1, Android/IOS have already gotten better version or the same versions of the same apps we already have on Windows Phone. It's why people got bugged when things like Xbox games and other features went to Android because they either had the same or better experience.

Locking them into their ecosystem for their SERVICES is great but that does not give anyone incentive to get a Windows Phone over an Android with the same services.

Your Scenario doesn't work because Apple would be removing the entire functionality of me syncing with a Windows PC so I would NEED to buy a mac if i wish to continue using my iPhone....Microsoft is not removing their services from android to make them exclusive to the X line, so that scenario does not work.

Furthermore, nobody is talking about app exclusives because once again...the "Ecosystem of Microsoft apps" is not exclusive to Windows Phone...they have them on Android and IOS and in much better forms.

02-25-2014, 10:44 AM

Jas00555

Originally Posted by Micah Dawson

And there is no reason they couldn't start with windows phone to BEGIN with....or at best Dual booted both OS on the phone(Which would then likely increase both market shares as opposed to just Android). Dual Boot still sounds bad but at the very least, it would actually allow developers to actively work on both if they so desired.
Do you really think that FIVE YEARS of this is beneficial to windows phone considering how slow Microsoft is with updating WIndows Phone as is and now they have to then begin developing and keeping up with TWO OS? And if Nokia X does take off, then what will happen to windows phone then? They'll essentially start becoming how Samsung and HTC are with windows phone....Windows phone will become an after thought likely.

You keep saying they will be locked into their ecosystem and by then Windows Phone will have better versions? No offense but that's slightly deluded since Day 1, Android/IOS have already gotten better version or the same versions of the same apps we already have on Windows Phone. It's why people got bugged when things like Xbox games and other features went to Android because they either had the same or better experience.

Locking them into their ecosystem for their SERVICES is great but that does not give anyone incentive to get a Windows Phone over an Android with the same services.

Your Scenario doesn't work because Apple would be removing the entire functionality of me syncing with a Windows PC so I would NEED to buy a mac if i wish to continue using my iPhone....Microsoft is not removing their services from android to make them exclusive to the X line, so that scenario does not work.

Furthermore, nobody is talking about app exclusives because once again...the "Ecosystem of Microsoft apps" is not exclusive to Windows Phone...they have them on Android and IOS and in much better forms.

Edit: in my last quote at the bottom, I meant to say Android line, not X. The WPC app is too unstable and buggy to let me fix it since it won't load the entire thing.

I think that this disagreement boils down to the fact that I have more faith in Microsoft than you do. Under Nadella, I have faith that Microsoft will move from their Ballmer ways where everything was separated by departments and people were fighting against each other and that the One Microsoft vision will be in full swing.

Either way, let me break it down.

"There is no reason they couldn't start with Windows Phone to begin with"

Yes there is, right now, WP doesn't have the app ecosystem that Android does. They need people in their ecosystem before Google could get ahold of them, and right now, Android is a faster way than WP. Eventually, WP will reach app parity and when they do, then they can start to transition people from X to Lumias.

"Android and iOS have better MS apps"

Which I expect to change (this argument is all opinion-based since I think the WP version will eventually be better while you think they won't)

"that does not give anyone incentive to get a Windows Phone over an Android with the same services"

If they kill the X family and people who own those phones are locked into those services, that is a huge incentive. I would rather switch from just an OS when there's another OS that functions similarly as opposed an entirely different ecosystem.

"Microsoft is not removing their services from the X line"

No, but if everything on Google's Android is optimized for Google and everything on WP is optimized for Microsoft and the X family runs an OS similar to WP, it would be a much easier transition to WP than it would be to Google's Android.

02-25-2014, 10:49 AM

tgp

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Jas00555

"Android and iOS have better MS apps"

Which I expect to change (this argument is all opinion-based since I think the WP version will eventually be better while you think they won't)

At this point it doesn't seem to be possible to make the apps better on WP, probably due to OS restrictions. I would think Microsoft would've already done it if they could have. That's why I say that Android can make a better WP than WP itself.

02-25-2014, 11:38 AM

Reflexx

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Keeping people away from being stuck in Google services has value.

It seems everyone is conveniently ignoring that.

02-25-2014, 11:42 AM

Nogitsune Micah

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Reflexx

Keeping people away from being stuck in Google services has value.

It seems everyone is conveniently ignoring that.

You mean keeping everyone away from Google services while being stuck in their operating system...people keep conveniently ignoring that :D

02-25-2014, 12:17 PM

theefman

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Jas00555

I'm not saying that people are too stupid or to believe that a Nokia X and a Nokia Lumia are the same thing. That's not what they're trying to do. Read my "year 5" scenario again. If they can get these devices into the market and have people locked into their services, then in a couple of years, when they kill of the X family, they'll have people locked in to their ecosystem and when the people who use to have a Nokia X have to leave to look for another phone, their easiest choice would be Windows Phone (which at this point will have a better Skype, Outlook, Office, Onedrive, Xbox, than Android could even imagine). Sure, not EVERYONE will make that jump and some may go Android, but the majority will go to WP.

Here, let me give you a scenario and I want you to tell me what you would do. If, hypothetically, you had a iPhone and you use iTunes for your music, used apps exclusively in the app store, used iMessage and Facetime to communicate with a majority of your friends, then Apple comes tomorrow and starts selling Macs for the same price as Windows PCs (because, remember, Android and WP are competing at similar price points) and removes the ability for their iPhones to work with Windows, what would you do? My guess is that you would buy a Mac because it was within your price point and you were locked into Apple's ecosystem. You couldn't move to Android or Windows Phone because you would have to use Hangout/Skype, Xbox Music/Google Music, and the Windows Phone Store/Google Play. If they did that, then more people would buy Macs because people would be locked into the ecosystem. That's the thinking of what Microsoft is doing.

The problem with your argument, and all other arguments for this ridiculous strategy, is that Microsoft services arent that compelling AND they already exist on Windows and android phones today yet have had no effect on bringing people to Microsoft's platforms, either WP or full Windows. So unless there is some special sauce that is added to the services on Nokia x devices the value of MS services is being vastly overestimated and will not have the desired effect.

02-25-2014, 12:26 PM

Ricardo Dawkins

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

What we want is to prevent people from investing in Google services. Why? Because if they are invested in those services, then it creates a barrier to using WP in the future.

If they are using MS services, then they may adopt WP in the future.

Do you mean the future where there is not Windows Phone and Windows as an OS is crumbling to the attack of ChromeOS and Android?

It's why I respect apple...For the most part, they never jumped onto the "Me too" train or at least not as often as others have and they innovate their products despite perhaps Google's android beginning to overshadow them and they come out with something i never expected to see on a phone. It's exactly why i'd move to an iPhone simply because they actually have always seemed to care about getting their user experience right.

yes, I agree. A few things stop me getting a iPhone right now...mainly the price...but if they come with some big screen iPhone...I will consider jumping out of this embarrasing mess called Windows Phone when even its own father doesn't care one iota about it.

I am utterly shocked at Daniel and sam and other's reporting of this....I am all for listing the Pros and as stupid as Microsoft seems, I understand the Pros(even if they don't make sense) but literally these articles on Windows Phone central have been NOTHING but "Oh this is a great idea" and "Microsoft certainly can do this the right way."...to the point i am just a bit shocked(as well as overwhelmed with these unnecessary articles) simply because D. Rubino and Co. usually are more objective than they are being.

They can't report anything else....because MSFT & NOKIA left them (and us) hanging. They simple don't know how to keep momentum. They should have something in regards to WP available for MWC. But, MSFT have been so slow while developing this update

This is good for Microsoft Services.....But this still not a good idea for Windows Phone which is what most of you are failing to see.I get how this is great for microsoft services but anyone(including Microsoft themselves) who thinks this is going to suddenly encourage people to move to a lumia because they are too "Stupid" to know a Nokia X is not the same as a Nokia Lumia, is deluded beyond relief.

I agree... a lot of delusion. Nokia X should be killed if Nadella has any brain cell working.

02-25-2014, 12:31 PM

Ricardo Dawkins

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

They can't afford to go through that by killing the X program once units start to be delivered and used.

They should go and replace every X with a equivalent Lumia ASAP even if they lose 7 billions dollars doing it. If they don't do this...they can kiss their Windows dominance goodbye.
IF ANDROID IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR NOKIA X..it is good enough for Surface RT and all those RT tablets...

IF ANDROID IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR NOKIA X...it is good enough for their Xbox consoles

.... in a few years it will be good enough to start replacing Windows on every x86 hardware excluding servers...

Now...they can live on their services revenue on the consumer side while somebody else takes cares of the hardware and we are all part of the Google borg.

02-25-2014, 12:33 PM

Jas00555

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by tgp

At this point it doesn't seem to be possible to make the apps better on WP, probably due to OS restrictions. I would think Microsoft would've already done it if they could have. That's why I say that Android can make a better WP than WP itself.

Eh, maybe... maybe not. I'm not that familiar with the limitations of the OS, but I disagree that they would do it if they could, I say that we wait for BUILD 2014 for that. That may have been the case with CE since that's an antiquated kernel, but with the switch to NT, I think they can make some pretty amazing app, they just haven't had time to do it yet. Daniel Gary was saying the same thing, but I think it's just a matter of time before we can make a call on that.

02-25-2014, 12:40 PM

Reflexx

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Micah Dawson

You mean keeping everyone away from Google services while being stuck in their operating system...people keep conveniently ignoring that :D

This is targeted towards consumers who will buy Android anyway. It's not like low end WP devices won't be emphasized.

But some consumers just won't buy the WP device for their first smartphone. That's a fact that we have to deal with. If they become invested in Google's services, then it's much harder to win them over later.

How do you address this fact?

02-25-2014, 12:43 PM

Reflexx

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by theefman

The problem with your argument, and all other arguments for this ridiculous strategy, is that Microsoft services arent that compelling AND they already exist on Windows and android phones today yet have had no effect on bringing people to Microsoft's platforms, either WP or full Windows. So unless there is some special sauce that is added to the services on Nokia x devices the value of MS services is being vastly overestimated and will not have the desired effect.

It's not about MS services winning them over in the short term. It's about having a chance to get them long term.
If they are invested in Google services, then what chance do we have to cconvert them later compared to if they are already using MS services.

As long as they are using MS services, there's a fair chance at switching them over fairly painlessly some time in the future.

02-25-2014, 12:47 PM

theefman

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Reflexx

It's not about MS services winning them over in the short term. It's about having a chance to get them long term.
If they are invested in Google services, then what chance do we have to cconvert them later compared to if they are already using MS services.

As long as they are using MS services, there's a fair chance at switching them over fairly painlessly some time in the future.

Long term they will be invested in google's android applications (which Nokia has touted 75% will be compatible with no modifications), which do you think will have the bigger pull when they can also get MS services on full android devices?

02-25-2014, 12:49 PM

Jas00555

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by theefman

The problem with your argument, and all other arguments for this ridiculous strategy, is that Microsoft services arent that compelling AND they already exist on Windows and android phones today yet have had no effect on bringing people to Microsoft's platforms, either WP or full Windows. So unless there is some special sauce that is added to the services on Nokia x devices the value of MS services is being vastly overestimated and will not have the desired effect.

I could be overestimating the value of having a more consistent UI and UX of transitioning from a WP compared to a Google-based Android phone, but I don't think so. Frankly, even if it's not big value, what would be the value of going from a Nokia X to a Google-based Android phone? To brag about how you have an Android? Even if the value is very little, it would still be more than whatever reason there would be to switch to Google's Android.

Originally Posted by theefman

Long term they will be invested in google's android applications (which Nokia has touted 75% will be compatible with no modifications), which do you think will have the bigger pull when they can also get MS services on full android devices?

The Nokia store and Google Play don't talk to each other, just like Amazon's app store doesn't talk to Google Play. That's the entire point of AOSP vs. GMS

02-25-2014, 01:05 PM

theefman

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Jas00555

I could be overestimating the value of having a more consistent UI and UX of transitioning from a WP compared to a Google-based Android phone, but I don't think so. Frankly, even if it's not big value, what would be the value of going from a Nokia X to a Google-based Android phone? To brag about how you have an Android? Even if the value is very little, it would still be more than whatever reason there would be to switch to Google's Android.

I dont get your point here. The UI of the Nokia x is only WP like on the home screen, all the apps are android apps so the exposure to the WP design language is minimal so there is very little UI/UX consistency bridging X users to WP. And as for the value of going to a google android phone, they will have been running android apps so that is the natural progression since they will also be able to access Microsoft services there. If not then what is the reason they would upgrade to a WP device?

Originally Posted by Jas00555

The Nokia store and Google Play don't talk to each other, just like Amazon's app store doesn't talk to Google Play. That's the entire point of AOSP vs. GMS

But they are still android apps for the most part so there in zero relearning to do and familiarity with the apps already, that is going to be a draw compared to going to an alien platform where your apps may not exist.

02-25-2014, 01:20 PM

Jas00555

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by theefman

I dont get your point here. The UI of the Nokia x is only WP like on the home screen, all the apps are android apps so the exposure to the WP design language is minimal so there is very little UI/UX consistency bridging X users to WP. And as for the value of going to a google android phone, they will have been running android apps so that is the natural progression since they will also be able to access Microsoft services there. If not then what is the reason they would upgrade to a WP device?

But they are still android apps for the most part so there in zero relearning to do and familiarity with the apps already, that is going to be a draw compared to going to an alien platform where your apps may not exist.

I guess we'll have to wait and see then. I just imagine that when people's first experience with a Lumia is that it's similar to their Nokia X phone, then that'll convince them more than, say a different UI/UX that has similar apps, being that initial impressions matter a lot when deciding on what phone to buy. If someone's initial impressions with a WP is that "oh, all of my stuff is backed up and I just sign into an account that I already have" then that would be much better than, "oh, great, my contacts and pictures are gone unless I download a bunch of other apps and I have to create a Google account. I don't need these things".

02-25-2014, 01:30 PM

cckgz4

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

I think they are giving their potential to google to take out of their hands.

02-25-2014, 01:32 PM

cckgz4

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Micah Dawson

That is kind of what worries me...and why i am already looking elsewhere

Wait.... what? So this event, before anything has played out, caused you to look at other platforms? Thats baffling to me

02-25-2014, 01:38 PM

Reflexx

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by theefman

Long term they will be invested in google's android applications (which Nokia has touted 75% will be compatible with no modifications), which do you think will have the bigger pull when they can also get MS services on full android devices?

As I'm sure you're aware of, most of the Android apps are free "meh" apps. Anything requiring any power won't work.

WP has made great strides in the past year when it comes to gaining new relevant apps. That will only increase over the next year or two.

App parity is just around the corner. Moving to WP later won't mean a big app sacrifice in the future.

However, right NOW there is a decent sized app gap. Some users will choose Android specifically because of that; even if they like the feel of WP.

If they go Android right now because of that app gap, keeping them away from Google services gives us a chance at getting them later when the app disparity isn't as prominent anymore. However, if they are engrossed in Google's ecosystem of services they won't be able to easily transition to WP in the future. Even if the app gap is gone.

02-25-2014, 01:46 PM

theefman

Re: Nokia X & Why it does not make sense lol

Originally Posted by Reflexx

As I'm sure you're aware of, most of the Android apps are free "meh" apps. Anything requiring any power won't work.

WP has made great strides in the past year when it comes to gaining new relevant apps. That will only increase over the next year or two.

App parity is just around the corner. Moving to WP later won't mean a big app sacrifice in the future.

However, right NOW there is a decent sized app gap. Some users will choose Android specifically because of that; even if they like the feel of WP.

If they go Android right now because of that app gap, keeping them away from Google services gives us a chance at getting them later when the app disparity isn't as prominent anymore. However, if they are engrossed in Google's ecosystem of services they won't be able to easily transition to WP in the future. Even if the app gap is gone.

Makes sense in theory but things rarely work out as neatly as you suggest. People will get attached to the apps on their platform (as we do on WP, eg preferring apps with good live tiles) and I dont think app parity is as close as you say. Look at PvZ 2 and BBM already on the Nokia x while WP still lacks them. Thats unlikely to change in the future in any significant way and I think will factor into upgrade decisions later.