Many Christians claim that their god, through prayer can heal physical and mental ailments. People have come forward to testify that they have been cured of tumours, cancer and semi-paralysis for example through prayer. Medical science would contend however that spontaneous recovery is not out of the question; cancer can go into remission etc. Also such recoveries are recorded in people who are not religious or indeed of a different religion and attributed to their god and may include a larger element of ‘human intervention’ than the sufferer would care to admit.

However what would assist the religious in their claim, would be evidence that there has been recovery from illnesses that specifically cannot be explained away or ‘mended’ through medicine. Two examples perhaps would be a quadriplegic and a child with significant physical and mental disabilities. Yet there have been no reliable reports of bones and sinew growing back to form legs and feet, no reports of pathways reforming in the brain and children regaining their abilities. Why is god able to ‘rid’ countless people of cancer, sore backs and every ailment you cant think of but can’t re-grow lost limbs through prayer? Would that not mean that he is perhaps not particularly skilled in his abilities and instead only heals illnesses and conditions that can already be (if the person is lucky) treated or that the body can recover from independently? Would that not lead you to believe that there is no intervention at all?

Past experiences suggest to me that all supernatural phenomena are fabrications people use for making sense of things in the world that are unknown, unknowable, or otherwise difficult to sort out using their limited resources, intellect, rationality, and the (perhaps inescapably) imperfect understandings of reality. I am open to the possibility that a God or gods exist, and that such a higher power could be capable of healing people in a seemingly miraculous fashion but in practice - at least from my perspective - it seems like a pretty impractical, fanciful belief to espouse.

What do you mean "no reports of pathways reforming in the brain"? People have been known to recover or develop out of all sorts of neurological problems - whether you want to call it a miracle or just examples of neuroplasticity. People have long believed they have been healed of something medical science can't explain, then some one comes along with a possible explanation. But whether something is a miracle for someone doesn't have much to do with whether there's a scientific explanation, finally. It comes down to something they hope for that someone told them can't happen, and then there it is.

Speaking from personal experience, God can and does heal people. Alfweich, limbs being restored from amputation was common at the Azusua St. revival. I know a girl who much like myself had a condition which needed the use of glasses to correct. I was there when the healing took place.

Speaking from personal experience, God can and does heal people. Alfweich, limbs being restored from amputation was common at the Azusua St. revival. I know a girl who much like myself had a condition which needed the use of glasses to correct. I was there when the healing took place.

Really? Were these people ever documented? Were they seen by a doctor? Because the growing of bone, cartilage, muscle, veins and skin from a 'stump' into a brand new leg would be world news. Seriously; it would make the first face transplant seem like childs play.

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

Speaking from personal experience, God can and does heal people. Alfweich, limbs being restored from amputation was common at the Azusua St. revival. I know a girl who much like myself had a condition which needed the use of glasses to correct. I was there when the healing took place.

Really? Were these people ever documented? Were they seen by a doctor? Because the growing of bone, cartilage, muscle, veins and skin from a 'stump' into a brand new leg would be world news. Seriously; it would make the first face transplant seem like childs play.

I'd imagine God made sure to include some convenient reason that this couldn't be documented.

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You're going wildly off topic. I can summarise; as a rationalist your testimony of your religious 'revelation' is as relevant to me as is the testimony of someone who found Allah in the desert, someone who espouses the benefits of Dienetics or a farmer who has told me about his voyage to Sirius in a spacecraft. Any supernatural intervention is in essense a 'miracle' as it would go against our understanding of the world around us. Even if you choose to believe in the 'supernatural' then you still have to contend with others who believe in it to, but not in the manner to which you believe. To another man your testimony would be considered a 'deception' as it does not correlate with their understanding of the supernatural.

I would advise you to read David Hume's An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding

Andrew, your argument seems based upon the faulty premise that if there is a God, he should do whatever we want him to, and he should do it now and he should do it without charge. (Sort of like how stereotypical left-wingers expect government to work, but I digress.) The problem is, the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament makes it quite clear that Elohim does not work that way.

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Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch

He that possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to bear his very silence. — Epistle to the Ephesians 3:21a

Andrew, youve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you cant even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You regrew a limb that was cut off?

You know what I’m referring to - the provision God gave me to fulfill my God given commission.

Why do my commission and testimony so perfectly match the bible? Why does the provision given to me so perfectly match my commission and testimony?

Unless we’re discussing extra-biblical history, you know my arguments are organic (I didn’t glean them from other people) and not cut and pasted from the internet. You know I only use the bible to interpret the bible. You’ve see others, time and time again, come on here with something cut and pasted from the “experts” (both Christian and non-Christian), yet seen me effortlessly pinpoint where they logically jumped the tracks.

You’ve seen me time and time again enter a scriptural argument and not even flinch at the credentials of whatever author the poster is quoting. Now, on the surface you may find that arrogant, except for the fact that, from your POV, my interpretation best matches the intent of the NT writers. In addition, you also respect my approach to scripture. You know I use many built-in safe guards (e.g. using 2 or 3 witnesses) in order to keep me balanced doctrinally. And you know that I’m not pushing any denominational agenda, for you’ve seen me self-correct when the scriptural evidence warrants.

You know my testimony does not advocate one group or church over another. In fact, I wasn’t even a member of any group at the time of my testimony. Furthermore, even though I wasn’t a member of a group at the time of my testimony, I did seek out a church, so I am not seeking my own followers, nor am I advocating other Christians to remain without a church. What’s more, when I did find a church, I didn’t attempt a coup or even to rise through the ranks, rather I stayed true to my own calling (commission) and am content with being a Sunday school teacher. And even though my testimony claims God spoke to me, I’ve never attempted to climb to a position within my church God didn’t call me into.

In fact, I was so outside of an organized church when I was saved that night alone in my apartment in Oct 92, I didn’t even know whether my experience was common or uncommon, and I wondered for a day or two if I were the only one on earth God was talking to and if it meant I would become a minister. But I feel back on what God actually said to me and he did NOT tell me to become a pastor, rather he simply called me to express his truth to others.

Also, the truth that I am advocating is not something wildly half-baked – I’m not pulling a Joseph Smith – rather it focuses on the profoundness and the simplicity found in Christ.

So, how do you explain that my testimony, commission, and provision are completely “organic” (I didn’t glean them from other people) and in such agreement with the bible?

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You're going wildly off topic. I can summarise; as a rationalist your testimony of your religious 'revelation' is as relevant to me as is the testimony of someone who found Allah in the desert, someone who espouses the benefits of Dienetics or a farmer who has told me about his voyage to Sirius in a spacecraft…

So, when presented with the evidence you seek from Christians, you then require it be proven superior to the evidence of other religions?

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You regrew a limb that was cut off?

You know what I’m referring to

Yeah, I do, which is why I asked a rhetorical question. Afleitch was asking for documentation about a specific claim about amputated limbs growing back. Your testimony involves something happening to you that wasn't a demonstrable physical change, whereas the claim in question was about something that clearly would have been a demonstrable physical change if it indeed happened. Do you not understand why the two things are in different categories, hence why your testimony isn't relevant to the question?

Andrew, you’ve known me and my testimony for a while now. So, how it is you are asking for documented miraculous cases when you can’t even explain my own testimony, which I have documented in great detail?

You're going wildly off topic. I can summarise; as a rationalist your testimony of your religious 'revelation' is as relevant to me as is the testimony of someone who found Allah in the desert, someone who espouses the benefits of Dienetics or a farmer who has told me about his voyage to Sirius in a spacecraft…

So, when presented with the evidence you seek from Christians, you then require it be proven superior to the evidence of other religions?

Considering the "evidence" for other religions can hardly be called as such, I believe that that was indeed what he was implying.

Speaking from personal experience, God can and does heal people. Alfweich, limbs being restored from amputation was common at the Azusua St. revival. I know a girl who much like myself had a condition which needed the use of glasses to correct. I was there when the healing took place.

Really? Were these people ever documented? Were they seen by a doctor? Because the growing of bone, cartilage, muscle, veins and skin from a 'stump' into a brand new leg would be world news. Seriously; it would make the first face transplant seem like childs play.

I'd imagine God made sure to include some convenient reason that this couldn't be documented.

Yeah, I do, which is why I asked a rhetorical question. Afleitch was asking for documentation about a specific claim about amputated limbs growing back. Your testimony involves something happening to you that wasn't a demonstrable physical change, whereas the claim in question was about something that clearly would have been a demonstrable physical change if it indeed happened. Do you not understand why the two things are in different categories, hence why your testimony isn't relevant to the question?

Well, since I have had neither a limb restored nor even a limb that has fallen off (knock on wood), why don’t we stick to the category of claimed miracles we do have in hand?

I mean, what’s more impressive, the fact that Moses’ staff physically changed into a snake, or the fact that God’s spiritual provision to Moses granted him victory over Pharaoh to the glory of God?

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.

Andrew, your argument seems based upon the faulty premise that if there is a God, he should do whatever we want him to, and he should do it now and he should do it without charge. (Sort of like how stereotypical left-wingers expect government to work, but I digress.) The problem is, the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament makes it quite clear that Elohim does not work that way.

That wasn’t my argument. Besides, making it clear he ‘doesn’t work that way’ is the eternal cop out.

My argument was that if God ‘heals’ why do his abilities appear so limited? Why are his abilities limited to recoveries that have been documented numerous times, can happen to the religious and non religious alike from recovery from depression to aggressive cancers going into remission? None of which of course require a supernatural explanation. Now if someone recovered from something really serious, something completely inexplicable just once, that was without any medical explanation then that would be really impressive.

As I said, if a full leg including bone, tissue, veins, muscles and digits grew back because a believer prayed then wow; wouldn’t that be something! Wouldn’t that be proof! I mean just think of it, the doctor in awe, , no need for a prosthesis, medical experts swarming to find out more about it. Even if the person shunned the limelight it would still come to the attention of his doctor, or chiropractor or social security office. But nothing. I’m not asking for regular examples. Just one that could be looked at with the conclusion ‘well, it has to be a miracle’

Now examples I could have used just a few years back; face transplants for example, I can no longer use. Now it can be done by medical professionals. So they can do something that a few years ago was out of their reach, but god has never done for anyone who prayed. Do you see where I’m coming from?

Now we get claims of course; hokum snake handlers claiming people have recovered from everything because of prayer. It has been the entire basis of the claim for Mother Theresa’s elevation to sainthood (a routine recovery claimed to be supernatural) for example. Of course in all cases, there is usually a natural explanation. People who recover from cancer after undergoing treatment often thank god either with or above the professionals and science; that’s just human nature. But if godly assistance exists, then it’s only apparent in rather banal or if not banal, impressive but explainable recoveries. Which means he’s not particularly good at dealing with the truly inexplicable as no examples exist. If they did, they would help people believe would they not?

Andrew, your argument seems based upon the faulty premise that if there is a God, he should do whatever we want him to, and he should do it now and he should do it without charge. (Sort of like how stereotypical left-wingers expect government to work, but I digress.) The problem is, the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament makes it quite clear that Elohim does not work that way.

That wasn’t my argument. Besides, making it clear he ‘doesn’t work that way’ is the eternal cop out.

My argument was that if God ‘heals’ why do his abilities appear so limited?

As I said, your argument is that if God doesn't make use of the abilities you want him to use, He must not be God. As you point out, we can do things now that would have been considered miracles in ages past. Perhaps God wasn't interested in keeping us from learning how to do them by doing them for us? Perhaps that explains why he doesn't do other things your "I want it all and I want it now" philosophy demands he do?

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Quote from: Ignatius of Antioch

He that possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to bear his very silence. — Epistle to the Ephesians 3:21a

Andrew, your argument seems based upon the faulty premise that if there is a God, he should do whatever we want him to, and he should do it now and he should do it without charge. (Sort of like how stereotypical left-wingers expect government to work, but I digress.) The problem is, the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament makes it quite clear that Elohim does not work that way.

That wasn’t my argument. Besides, making it clear he ‘doesn’t work that way’ is the eternal cop out.

My argument was that if God ‘heals’ why do his abilities appear so limited?

As I said, your argument is that if God doesn't make use of the abilities you want him to use, He must not be God. As you point out, we can do things now that would have been considered miracles in ages past. Perhaps God wasn't interested in keeping us from learning how to do them by doing them for us? Perhaps that explains why he doesn't do other things your "I want it all and I want it now" philosophy demands he do?

No, his argument is that there's no evidence for the claim that God heals.

If you believe the claim that God miraculously heals people then how would you go about demonstrating that the claim is actually true? How would you go about distinguishing between the healing that occurs by natural process and those that occur by divine intervention?

No, his argument is that there's no evidence for the claim that God heals.

If you believe the claim that God miraculously heals people then how would you go about demonstrating that the claim is actually true? How would you go about distinguishing between the healing that occurs by natural process and those that occur by divine intervention?

Indeed. There is no evidence that god heals because claims made by those who say ‘he healed me’ can be countered by medical evidence to the contrary. However medical science is now in the domain of repairing injuries that have never been repaired before. A face can now be transplanted (alongside underlying work) to give someone a new face after a serious deformity. This was impossible 10 years ago. When it was impossible in science, did we ever see any out of the blue examples of it happening to confirm that god could cure it without scientific intervention? Did we ever see anyone pray to make the impossible possible through God? No.

Also, now that it is possible, do we have people praying and it therefore happening without medical intervention as a result? No. Have we possibly had people undergo a once impossible surgery and then thank god, even though god never intervened prior to mankind learning how to repair it? Yes. So we therefore have people claiming that ‘god heals’ if it is something that mankind can already heal or that the body can spontaneously overcome (tumours, cancers etc)

If god had any abilities at all, surely examples of the impossible being cured would be occurring before medical science caught up or before study of the human body caught up? Indeed, now that we have caught up, some of the ‘miracles’ of the NT are in fact fairly banal. Even the very heart of the story; the death and resurrection of Jesus comes under scrutiny;

Can a man survive a crown of thorns? (yes)3 days without water? (yes)Being nailed to the cross (yes – see Meiji Japan and countless modern examples)Being pierced in the side (yes – see contemporary skeletons of gladiators or a trip to a modern A&E award)Being pronounced dead (yes – compare our understanding of what it means to be ‘dead’ which in itself is not 100% accurate with the understanding of the ancient world re comas, the Glasgow Scale etc)Being in a cold tomb? (yes – ideal conditions in fact for resuscitation)

All survivable by themselves and together. If we take the NT account at it’s word (debatable if we should, but we can make the concession); what is more likely? That Jesus was not ‘dead’ however much the odds are against any many surviving all those injuries and concussion or coma…or that he was dead as we know dead to be and he defied the impossible by coming back to life through his god.

Speaking from personal experience, God can and does heal people. Alfweich, limbs being restored from amputation was common at the Azusua St. revival. I know a girl who much like myself had a condition which needed the use of glasses to correct. I was there when the healing took place.

Really? Were these people ever documented? Were they seen by a doctor? Because the growing of bone, cartilage, muscle, veins and skin from a 'stump' into a brand new leg would be world news. Seriously; it would make the first face transplant seem like childs play.

I'd imagine God made sure to include some convenient reason that this couldn't be documented.

If there weren't documentation, then how did I find out? I've been to the historical site of that revival. There are plenty of books on the miracles that occurred there.

Speaking from personal experience, God can and does heal people. Alfweich, limbs being restored from amputation was common at the Azusua St. revival. I know a girl who much like myself had a condition which needed the use of glasses to correct. I was there when the healing took place.

Really? Were these people ever documented? Were they seen by a doctor? Because the growing of bone, cartilage, muscle, veins and skin from a 'stump' into a brand new leg would be world news. Seriously; it would make the first face transplant seem like childs play.

I'd imagine God made sure to include some convenient reason that this couldn't be documented.

If there weren't documentation, then how did I find out? I've been to the historical site of that revival. There are plenty of books on the miracles that occurred there.

So where is the documentation then? Who had lost a limb previously, what documentation shows that they really had lost it, and what documentation shows that their limb grew back? What specific source makes this claim, and what evidence is given to back it? Come on man, give us some specifics.

Well, since I have had neither a limb restored nor even a limb that has fallen off (knock on wood), why don’t we stick to the category of claimed miracles we do have in hand?

I mean, what’s more impressive, the fact that Moses’ staff physically changed into a snake, or the fact that God’s spiritual provision to Moses granted him victory over Pharaoh to the glory of God?

Which is more impressive is irrelevant if neither of them happened. What source outside of the Bible do we have to confirm that this ever happened?

Dang, Dibble, I waited nearly a week to open this thread because I thought the response to my comment would require my having to write a long post, and I wanted to make sure I had the time to do it properly. But you proved me wrong – there was no need for me to wait, for you step-sided, once again, my whole point.

You simply refuse to turn on the lights to examine the miracle staring you in the face (most likely due to the fact you can’t explain it away), and instead attempt to discount miracles you don’t readily have available to examine.

You know in my last post I only referenced Moses as an analogy to demonstrate a simple point: that the provision God gave me and the results of that provision, are more impressive than a physical healing. So, since you don’t have a physical miraculous healing in hand to examine, but you do have in hand a more impressive miracle, why not examine what’s available to examine?

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You've known me long enough to know I don’t run around half-cocked – I don’t claim God is constantly talking to me and/or giving me signs. But I do claim to know his voice. And I do claim to have been given a commission by his voice and the provisions to fulfill that commission.

Now, you obviously can’t examine my claim of God speaking to me and giving me a commission, but you can examine some of the provisions he gave me and whether or not I was able to accomplish my claimed commission through the use of those provisions.

So why not examine it?

John 3:20 “Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:23:13 pm by consigliere jmfcst »

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Do not fight with one another over my banning. I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave. It is what I want.