No, This is Not an Okay Tip to Leave

Redditor ikma works in a restaurant in Washington, DC. Apparently, an older couple from the “Bible Belt” (her description) decided to leave her this as a tip. Here’s ikma’s thought progression:

“Cool, they left me a pretty good tip!”

“Wait a minute, something’s not right…”

“wat”

“WAT”

So, yeah. This is, most definitely, not an okay tip to leave, Bible belters and tract leavers. If you want to leave this AND leave them a tip for their exceptional service, then whatever floats your boat. But in all honesty, I don’t believe that Jesus would have done anything this underhanded or deceitful to share his message. Tricking someone into thinking they were getting money, when in reality you were handing them a piece of meaningless paper, that act of which in and of itself is essentially lying? Congratulations. You have accomplished the opposite of what you set out to do. The server now hates the Christian religion even more than they might have used to.

I grew up around the rhetoric that if you were a Christian, that you needed to watch your actions because they speak louder than your words do. This kind of action shows this person that Christians are cheap, thoughtless and conniving. If you want to be a real “witness” to those who bring you your food and beverage, you better tip the shit out of them. That might change their minds.

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About The Author

Nona Raybern
Nona writes things called words and puts them into sentences that are supposed to make sense, but sometimes don't. Writing this bio would be one of those times where it don't. She also likes grammer and speeling. And bourbon. And OH MY GOD, IS THAT A CUPCAKE?

http://twitter.com/AdamAwesomeface Adam Stogdill

stone them to death in the center of the city!

SumAnon

Come bring that shit to NJ, we will run you down in the parking lot and make you suffer.

Tru fax

http://dailyoftheday.com/ Kabwla Two-Lips

Keep your pen handy….

Conspiracy Einstein

…and your enemies closer.

http://dailyoftheday.com/ Kabwla Two-Lips

Come closer please….

The Human Torch

Crazy religious freaks. I wish that they would keep it inside the living room/church so that the rest of the planet can go about their lives.

LlamaHomefry

Dear fellow Christians,

Stop making us all look bad! This shit is NOT cool!

Sincerely,
Sane Christians

Conspiracy Einstein

Totes this.

Atheist

You make your self look bad already by believe in a fake made up god.
Sincerely,
Sane atheist

Lauren Rae

And you just made yourself and other Atheists look bad by shoving your beliefs in someone else’s face, and are now officially no better than those who shove their “God” down non-believers throats.

Sincerely,
Sane Tolerant Spiritualist

Really-pissed Guy

Yeah, that’s one of the things I can’t stand about both sides. They preach too much and think they’re right.

LlamaHomefry

I actually agree with this. I think a lot of Christians have no tact when it comes to sharing their faith. I only bring it up when it’s asked of me or it’s relevant to the discussion. Other than that, no one really cares.

Allan Oberrender

It’s true. people generally don’t care, they really don’t. If someone wants to ask me about what I believe, then i”ll tell them I love Jesus, if they don’t, not much point in bringing it up because they obviously don’t care, and if i were to bring it up strongly without them wanting me to, it would just cause a fiasco. but yeah, leaving a fake 10 dollar tip with a tract is absurd, foolish, and just crappy.

buuuttt, in every category of people, there are the awesome ones, the in between ones, and the crappy selfish ones. this goes for every category of people.

Jaamoose

There aren’t two “sides.” There is fact, and there is faith.

Really-pissed Guy

Yeah, there’s faith. No problem. BUT do we know either way if there’s some life form that created us? No. That’s why atheists don’t know shit yet spout science as if they can actually pass math. Christians think are right based on a control scheme created by the elite way back in the day. Face it. You’re both lost, scared, and there’s nothing you can do about it so you struggle to find something to cling on to.

Jaamoose

You can rant all you want, but there is ample evidence for how we came to exist, and it doesn’t point to a creator. Even more, if we were created by something omnipotent, then we are in bad shape. You are clueless to think atheists need to cling to anything, not real atheists anyway.

Jamie Mattox

it comes down to somebody somewhere had to create something and do something to cause the big bang that brought us all together. like does not just pop up out of nowhere

VG Lovecraft

Oops, now you’re particular “denomination” of Atheism is showing, Jaamoose. You are clinging to the belief that “God = “omnipotent” and/or “creator”.Also, science does not know how we came to exist. Yes, there is evidence for the “big bang”, such as background radiation in space, and the appearance that the universe seems to be expanding. However, science cannot determine what existed prior to the “bang”, or what precipitated it. Also, there are competing theories, such as “expansion and contraction” and “M(embrane) theories. And the theory of evolution makes no claim as to the origin of life itself, but only the origin of species.

Excidium

@Really-pissed Guy – Well, you’e right about Christianity (and religion in general) being a control scheme, but Atheism is simply the non-belief in such control schemes, and Agnosticism is simply: “I don’t know if there’s some kind of God or not”. I don’t believe everyone in this World are “lost and scared” as you put it, or necessarily struggling to find something to cling onto.

VG Lovecraft

So, let’s see where both scientists and Atheists employ “faith” (I mention both science and Atheism as not all scientists are Atheists): The scientist employs empiricism when conducting experiments. This requires no faith, but 1) the experimenter must have faith that all instruments and measurements used are not flawed, or influenced by some unaccounted for factors, 2) fellow scientists must have faith that the experimenter did not introduce (knowingly or otherwise) “experimenter bias” and 3) “laymen” interpreting the results of a published experiment have faith in the results (but may misinterpret them, as when assigning “cause and effect” when the experiment may not demonstrate a link).

Jaamoose

Either you are being facetious, or you don’t understand the meaning of faith. From Merriam-Webster – “firm belief in something for which there is no proof,” That is not even close to the same thing as relying on your instruments and the like. And your closing statement works against you. Science is of course subject to change as more is learned. Faith, on the other hand, is by it’s nature assumed infallible.

VG Lovecraft

I do understand the meanings (plural) of faith, and I shall provide you with the first two (in order) from the New Oxford American Dictionary:

faith -n
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something [such as the scientific instruments in my previous post].

2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

-a system of religious belief [ex: the Christian faith]
- a strongly held belief or theory [ex: the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe.]

Please note that all [bracketed] examples are quoted from the dictionary, with the exception of the brackets in definition number 1. If you have issues with those examples, please contact the folks at Oxford.

thehomelessguy

Stating your beliefs and “shoving your beliefs down a throat” are two different things. You don’t have to be silent to be right.

Morris Stegosaurus

That’s certainly true, but “You make your self look bad already by believe in a fake made up god.” is more the former than the latter, don’t you think?

Sarah Weissman

Stating your beliefs includes a polite detachment. My beliefs are that I am a Jew. THAT is stating my belief. That’s it.

Tat Wadjet

Dear sane and insane Christians, insane atheists, and fellow sane atheists….There are plenty of assholes found in any demographic.

JBryson

I don’t believe that he or she made other atheists look bad. I think that the poster made himself or herself look bad. No need to generalize based upon one insignificant example.

ohknowyoudidnt

Sorry Lauren, but if I hear that crap about shoving something down someone’s throat again, I’m going to barf.

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

Dear fellow atheists,

Stop making us look bad with your useless assholery.

Sincerely,
Atheist who feels no need to hassle others for no reason

roooth

yes

Allan Oberrender

well, at least there are some who realize that you don’t have to agree with someone to befriend them.

Trisha Annmarie Glaser

dear maggie.. until you fully understand the harm religion does you are as bad as the christians who look the other way when their holy babble inspires parents to kill their children in the name of the lawrd.

LlamaHomefry

I know you’re a troll, buuuuut…

Not all Christians stand by and watch. Yes, Christians have a bad reputation and we as a whole have done some shitty things. However, we’re trying to make it right – or at least most of us are.

Martin Phillips

I’m behind you on this one, have your faith and take good things away from it, I don’t share your faith but as long as you’re not harming anyone with or because of it fine, if it leads you to be a better person, great!

Daw

Meanwhile us Pagans who are still around don’t give a shit

http://get-a-life-i-have-99.tumblr.com/ Ravy

Here here

White__Rabbit

^5 to Daw!

giles

That is until you celebrate Christmas just like all the other Pagans. Merry Paganmas

VG Lovecraft

The Pagan celebration of winter occurs on the winter solstice (occurring between Dec. 20 – 23, varying with the position of the sun each year). Many Pagans name this celebration Yule (from the Norse/Germanic origin) or Midwinter, or simply Winter Solstice. Saturnalia may also be used, derived from the ancient Roman festival. Obviously, all of these Pagan celebrations pre-dated Christianity. This is why the Christians decided to place Yeshua’s birth on Dec. 25. The birth of the “Son” could be easilly equated to the birth of the “Sun”. Happy Festivus, Giles. (Don’t get the reference? Find the “holiday” episode of “Seinfeld”, if you care)

VG Lovecraft

This Pagan doesn’t give a shit which path anyone chooses. But, I do give a shit that, whatever path, someone chooses intelligent discourse, and the search for commonalities, over the “there is only one path” position.

Sarah Weissman

This Jew agrees with this pagan!

Tom P

This Christian agrees with this Jew and this pagan. And I’m pretty sure this constitutes the beginning of a joke somehow.

Im sure there were Pagans, Christians, Jews, etc in the World Trade Centers. Did their beliefs matter? No. They all died the same way. No religion can protect you from death no more than being a pacifist will prevent you from getting your ass kicked.

Jana Senobio Graves

I’m with Maggie. Religion sucks, period, but do you think being a dickhead will convince the Christians/etc that being atheist is any better? Being an ass only fuels the opposition (“atheists have no morals”) by providing examples of fuckery on our part.The article is pretty much saying the exact same thing, roles reversed. If you want to impact people, do it strategically.

Guest

And leaving dickish comments on the internet is going to change that, Trisha?

That is such an odd American trait, that sort of “clever” wordplay. “Holy babble”..! That’s funny, I get jokes!

Religion != murder. Murder = murder. Many a thing has inspired people to kill. Humans are good at finding reasons.

Jeb Morningside

And leaving dickish comments on the internet is going to change that how?

Penny Marie Sautereau

No, religion in and of itself does not do harm. People ABUSING religion to exploit the vulnerable does harm. So yes, Maggie is right. Atheists can be judgmental condescending assholes too. KNOCK IT OFF.

Anti-Anti

Yeah, assholes — unlike the smug, judgmental (and deadbeat) Christians who left the “tip” on which this thread is based! You Knock It Off!

omjho

But unlike theists, there are no holy books commanding us to be “judgemental condescending assholes” towards anybody outside of the group.

VG Lovecraft

I am a theist, as I know that all gods exist (see my earlier comment above). However, as a Pagan, I have no holy book, and do my best not to be judgmental, though I do admit to sometimes making the assumption that an Atheist takes the evangelical attitude of the Dawkins-style “New Atheism” (i.e., an anti-religionist or anti-theist position, while “Old Atheism” which follows the true “A-theist” definition, meaning “without god” (not “against god”).

omjho

Forgot about the pagans.Should have said some theists. Point taken. And you KNOW all gods exist? Actual proof of that would be nice.

Jamie Mattox

Seeing is not believing believing is seeing

VG Lovecraft

When I define myself as a “gnostic” Pagan, and say that “all gods exist”, I can state the following. Do I “know” everything? No. As I’ve said, the one “God fallacy” I can see is the fallacy of omnipotence. I say that all gods exist by looking at physics. Physics states that “everything in the universe is energy” and “energy cannot be created or destroyed; it simply changes form”. If energy is never created, it has always existed. Therefore, the “Source Energy” may be called “God” (capital “G”)..Note that this makes God omnipresent, but not omnipotent. Humans use their “thought energy” to create (or, more correctly, transform) gods and goddesses (small “g”) from the Source Energy. Now, all this omnipresent Energy is not omnipotent, might it still be seen as omniscient (all-knowing)?

Perhaps. All is energy. Thought is energy. Could everything have some form of thought or consciousness? Quantum entanglement has been demonstrated in recent experiments.that two particles which are “entangled” will react to each others behavior simultaneously, regardless of spacial distance between the particles.

If all this is true, then all gods must exist, as they were formed from the “God Consciousness”.

Sarah Weissman

This Jew abides by this quote about a holy book: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it.” -Rabbi Hillel

Jezzer

Then how do so many atheists become “judgemental condescending assholes” anyway?

Jaamoose

Even if you toss out the mountains of evidence about religion doing harm, think about the less tangible harm religion does – for example, if it weren’t for the Christian right, the Tea Party would be virtually powerless.

omjho

Have to disagree. The teahadhis really work for the plutocrats. But that’s a discussion for another place.

Jaamoose

I agree with you on who they work for, but I am saying the movement draws the majority of its recruits, and it’s illogical suppositions, from the religious right.

Bill Yeske

Religion, in itself, most certainly does do harm. It suppresses truth and facts with fantasy and lies. In doing so, it has stunted the growth of humanity. It has compelled billions to commit horrible atrocities onto others who don’t concede.

AriellaHero

Right… Bill, human beings do harm. Human beings can take any decent ideal and corrupt it so we get what we want, not what the ideal actually is. Look at ANY philosophy, not just religious ones. This is because human beings can be incredibly stupid, short sighted, thoughtless and greedy. Of course we can also be selfless, honorable, noble individuals too.

Penny Marie Sautereau

No, religion in and of itself does not do harm. People ABUSING religion to exploit the vulnerable does harm. So yes, Maggie is right. Atheists can be judgmental condescending assholes too. KNOCK IT OFF.

Jami

If you’re going to play that game what about the harm atheism has done? Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, all atheists. Studies have shown that atheists are less likely to recycle, more likely to commit violent crimes like rape and murder, more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, more likely to abuse their children, and live less time than people with religious beliefs. Pagan and atheist get the same illness, go to the same doctor, take the same meds the pagan on average will get better faster because the power of their belief makes them less stressed and therefore quicker healers.

Please educate yourself before you sling crap like “religion does harm” – blaming religion is JUST as stupid as blaming video games for violence, music for rape, etc. It’s called FREE WILL! People make the choice to be violent or good. Religion does not make that choice for them anymore than believing in the theory of evolution causes a person to be a jerk either.

Myfi

If you need religion to make yourself behave and be a decent human being because if you don’t some holy power might smite you, or you might go to hell, it doesn’t matter what your religion is because honestly? Odds are you have some re-evaluating of yourself that you need to do. Just sayin,

Anti-Anti

Hitler was not an Atheist! Go back and do some research, because your “studies” are blatantly incorrect! Just “google” “religion does harm” and see what comes up, historically and today. You don’t know what you’re talking about! Your comments are silly, ill-informed, and thus dismissable!

Jaamoose

Not to mention, although Stalin embraced the Marxist teaching about atheism, it was only partly so. Stalin wanted to essentially replace Christ with himself, not to claim there is nothing to worship, and he came from a very religious background that was a big part of warping his mind.

History Geek

Yes – Hitler became an Atheist before taking control.

Saint Cayetano

Cling to that load of shit too.

Christina

To say that he became an atheist before taking control is way too simplistic. Scholars to this day still disagree over whether or not he could be classified as a Christian in his later years. He was raised and baptized Catholic but held negative views towards “political” Catholicism. He was an opportunist, pure and simple, and any religious views he held were subordinate to his “Nazi” agenda. He was in favor of a “purged” Christianity and while one could argue that he expressed that view in order to make his agenda more palatable to Christians, many scholars believe he was definitely a deist of some sort when he came to power–NOT an atheist. Furthermore, the vast majority of Nazi Party members (numbering almost 3 million) were Christians. So to sum it up “simply”: the head of the Nazi party (deist though probably not Christian)–his 3 million followers (Christian.) I’ll let you do the math…

Jamie Mattox

Atheists don’t normally say they are doing things in the name of God like hitler did MANY times after taking control

Cafeeine

In order to make you’re point you need yo reduce what religion is. Its nonsensical to say “Its not religion that did that, it was people” when religion includes the social aspect of people interacting, whether its going to church, shunning an apostate or manning a homeless shelter.
if you want to strip the bad things, then by the same standard you need to strip away the good things attributed to religion, as those are done by people too. If you want to reduce religion to its scriptures unread and practices not practiced, without people acting upon them then sure, that religion is harmless, but we have a different name for religions without followers. We call them mythologies.

You can’t separate the beliefs from the actions of the believers. To amend your example, religion isn’t like a video game, it’s more like gamer culture,

VG Lovecraft

Cafeeine: To restate my quote to Trisha earlier. . .

“Your definition of “religion” is faulty, Trisha. “legare”, the Latin
root of the word means simply “to bind together or connect” Hence, a
religion is a method which we humans use to connect us to our origin and
reason for existence, however each individual may interpret that
connection. Indeed, Atheism and science are religions. It is not
religion itself which causes harm, but the harmful actions done “in the
name” of a religion.”

Therefore, Cafeeine, “religion” can indeed be separated from “believers”. Your definition of religion could be more closely applied to the term “organized religion”. However, not all adherents to any particular “organized religion” can be correctly generalized, either. Not all Christians blow up abortion clinics; nor do all of them act “Christlike”. Not all Muslims are terrorists; nor are they all “moderates”

Cafeeine

I don’t think so. You don’t get to redefine ‘religion’ by going back to its etymology and working back up. That’s a cheap way of avoiding an argument.
Under your definition ‘atheism’ wouldn’t actually qualify as a religion, which makes me think you probably have a personal redefinition for that too.
If you want to act like Humpty Dumpty and use idiosyncratic definitions for your words, there’s no point in conversing.

Furthermore its a pointless enterprise. I never said that you have to paint with a broad brush, that every crime done in the name of religion indicts every religious person. You didn’t get that from my comment. My point was that you can’t honestly separate the actions done in the name of a religion from your overall assessment of that religion. You don’t ignore the moderates OR the extremists, the good OR the bad.

VG Lovecraft

There is a point in conversing, as long as definitions for terms are given and agreed upon by all parties in a conversation. I do not define “religion” as I do in order to “avoid argument”, but rather because that is how I personally define the word. FYI, I define “Atheism” as “a belief system without god(s)”. Why? The prefix “A-” means “without”; “theo/a” means “god/dess”, and an “ism”, is a system of belief, organization, etc. I do consider Atheism a religion, as it is simply a method for understanding humankind’s “connection to the universe”, namely that gods are not required for the universe to exist.

Now, for me personally, my religion (my understanding of my “connection to the universe”) I term as Paganism. Admittedly, the origin of “paganus” was basically “country dweller”, perhaps even a pejorative sort of “hick” word. Indeed, the ancient Romans are said to have called the Jews and first Christians “pagan”, as they dwelt outside the main city, and did not believe in the Roman deities. I do not use “pagan” in its original “country dweller” sense, but as a term meaning “belief in multiple god/desses”. Whether the term “god” is seen as archetype, “thoughtform”, distinct entity, or a single “aspect” of an all-inclusive Source (or, God with a capital “G”) matters not to my definition of the word Pagan (though it does matter to some modern Pagans.

Now, “mythologies” are not “religions without followers”, as you say. A myth is a story which is generally allegorical, and used to teach members of a culture or “tribe” what is acceptable behavior, or the “origins” of the world, which to ancient peoples basically meant the tribe itself. Myths are neither “true” nor “false”, they’re stories. A “mythology” is a collection of myths, such as Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology, the mythology of the “American Dream” (a current example) etc. If you don’t believe me on this, read books by Joseph Campbell, or find a DVD copy of “The Power of Myth” or also “Sukhavati”.

Regarding my “broad brush” error, I suppose this came about because you (seemingly) view religion as collective, whereas I view it as essentially solitary. In other words, we all view the universe through a personal “filter”. Our views are influenced by various groups, yes. But each person’s views will vary, even if slightly.

Cafeeine

You can redefine ‘religion’ or any word as you wish, but don’t expect your redefinition to carry any weight with anybody else. I can’t have a discussion with you since I would need to ask you to define every word you use, and then every word used in those definitions while I do the same, and frankly I don’t have the time to go through that rigmarole. ( just in case you redefined that as well, I’m using the following definition: rigmarole: a lengthy and complicated procedure.)

There is a reason we ascribe meaning by consensus, so that we know what everyone means. Otherwise, you might as well be speaking gibberish.

VG Lovecraft

I assure you that I communicate with many people, online and otherwise, without difficulty most of the time. However, you and I obviously cannot reach consensus between the two of us, which is required if we wish to accomplish anything. So, the best we can do is agree to disagree. I do suggest, however, that you do look into Joseph Campbell’s work, if you have any interest in his thoughts about religion and mythology.

Cafeeine

Forgive me if I have my doubts.
I don’t doubt that you can communicate with people, but I do doubt that both of you are always on the same page when you think you have agreement. People tend to assume their interlocutors are using commonplace definitions unless given reason otherwise.
Its not even that I assume that we completely disagree on things. Its that you have clearly shown you use idiosyncratic terminology.

VG Lovecraft

I do agree with you that people often assume agreement. And while I use idiosyncratic terminology, more so when discussing “religious” topics, this is likely because my thoughts often differ from the prevailing definitions. However, my definition of “mythology” is much less idiosyncratic than your “religion without followers” definition. If fact, equating myth with “fallacy” is much more common than either of our definitions.

Sarah Weissman

Religion is a tool – it can inspire good or bad. You can use a steak knife to eat a delicious meal or stab somebody. You can use technology to save people or kill them. It’s the same thing.

Cafeeine

I quite agree. I notice however that no one makes this argument when people are extolling the supposed virtues of religion. Then all people talk about is the “healing power of religion” when someone overcomes a tragedy or ” X’s decision to feed the poor is an outcome of his religious beliefs, so religion must be protected so we can have the Xs of the world” When someone points out that Y beat that disease because of his own perseverence and medical help and not because of imagined help from the supernatural, I’m treated as miserly and ignorant of the gifts of the divine.

But when the show is on the other foot, when the vices turn up, then the religion is a tool, a mindset, a morally neutral artifact that can in no way be attached to the pettiness or atrocities done in its name. After all, people will do good, or bad so its all a wash.
All I’m asking for is some consistency.

Derrick Van

Hitler was a Christian. And everything you wrote is absolutely ridiculous, and made up.

History Geek

Actually Hitler was only raised as a Christian. As an adult he became a closet atheist at first, and then was more open about it later. Officially the Nazis followed Teutonic teachings in many ways.

Linda

Clearly you’ve never read anything he wrote. He was a very strong Catholic all his life. The swastika came from a symbol from his childhood church.

AriellaHero

I have, and I’m also well aware of the religion the SS indoctrinated their people with, which was NOT Christianity. Hitler loathed Christianity as it had its roots in Judaism. He however was willing to USE it to further his own ends.

Jamie Mattox

as i stated above no atheist says they are doing things in the name of God

Head Case

mind showing some proof to those stats or that history lesson? sounds more like you’re talking out of your ass

I think that when people talk about the harm a religion has done, they are referring to harm done in the name of that religion or by leaders of that religion, whereas those names you listed, while they may or may not have been athiests, it is unimportant to the argument; they did not do their harm in the name of atheism.

omjho

Where are the links to the data that supports all the claims you just made? Oh, that’s right. You made it up, so they’re aren’t any.

http://www.k1nsey6.com K1nsey6

That whole first paragraph is pure ignorance, the second is almost as ignorant.

Christina

Hitler was not atheist. He was in favor of a “purged” Christianity–one with its Jewish elements removed and replaced with beliefs similar to his own. Sort of how a lot of Christians do in our own country today–pick and choose what they want to believe. Shape scripture so that it fits their reality. In my family, it was the so-called “Christians” that did the molesting and the abusing. They were also the first to look away and turn a blind eye, allowing it to happen to others. And they did it all while “thumping” their bibles and claiming righteousness. I know that that is not everyone’s experience and though it was extremely difficult, I do not hold it against all Christians. But you can’t get around the fact that when one stops using their own critical thinking skills in favor of blindly following the pact, one becomes blind to many things around them. It doesn’t have to be the case, but unfortunately it is the trend.

VG Lovecraft

Pagans and Atheists “get the same illness. . .”? Where did you “educate” yourself, Jani? Yes, some Pagans can be as “anti-Abrahamic” as Atheists, probably due to negative experiences in whichever religion they were raised in as children. However, Pagans such as myself who were either not “indoctrinated” to a particular path, or decide that being a “reactionary Pagan” is just as negative as their former experience, avoid the “illness”.

Jamie Mattox

Hitler was Catholic

Jay Jones

Studies show…yes, because the participants were hand picked to show the results they wanted. Do you think anyone doing a study isnt already biased and wants the study to favor their beliefs?

I”m Right You’re Wrong

Actually, dude.. Hitler was a devout Christian doing what he thought was right for his people killing Semites.. But thanks for slinging that misinformed bullshit again like some asshole bible thumpers who want to make atheist look like mass murderers.. Why don’t YOU inform yourself before YOU open your stupid ass mouth.. Atheists aren’t “Most likely not recycling or abusing their children”. or whatever stupid bullshit you believe is true.. Why don’t you fucking bring these “STUDIES”, write a peer review and bring it back here.. Last time I watched the news, a lady who was a devout Christian drowned her kids, Catholic priests diddled little boys, and the lady across the street, who is a devout Catholic would beat the crap out of her grandson till we called the cops on her.. So yea.. Where is YOUR PROOF Atheists do those things? SHOW US.

lemon floor wax

Please cite these “studies” that show atheists are less likely to recycle, blah blah blah. Are you pulling the “pagan and atheist get the same illness” thing out of the air or do you have data to back that up?

Hitler was not an atheist. He was a very firm believer in Christianity. Just because you don’t like what he did, you can’t say “Oh, he wasn’t a real Christian” any more than I can say “Stalin was a jerk and certainly not an atheist.”

If that’s TL;DR, here’s the outcome: 60%+ are identified as Christian, 5% are atheist or “no religious preference”.

White__Rabbit

I hate to break this to you Trisha but not ALL religion can be held to the violent history of the Christian so do not lump us all in the same boat. You want to believe and have faith in nothing then knock yourself out but don’t you dare judge those of us who decide to follow a different path. There are actually religions out there are completely based around NOT doing harm to others and have existed for thousands of years long before the story of Christ was told.

Excidium

Which one?

Robert Downer

Wicca for one. An it harm non do what ye will. We also believe in the 3 fold law. That which we put out there comes back to us times 3.

VG Lovecraft

Actually, Wicca was begun in approximately 1946 and founded by Gerald Gardner. However, the god/desses in the myriad Wiccan traditions do pre-date Christianity.

Jamie Mattox

some also believe depending on how severe the harm is it can come back 10 fold but the general rule of thumb is 3 fold

Jamie Mattox

Most pagan religions have roots that go back to before jesus all of the christian holidays were taken from pagans Christ was born in september not december. They took our holidays to try and make us convert to christianity and when it didnt work they tried to kill us off.

Jay Jones

Wait, you know what month Jesus was born? Really? Do tell. Show me proof. Not THEORY. I want PROOF. Cold, Hard, proof. But that wont happen. It will be just like telling a religious person to prove there is a god.

anti-anti

he never did exist. it’s like saying that Hercules existed and that the myth is not referring to the stars… As if..!

Tom P

Hi. You really won’t find that many scholars who will speculate that Jesus of Nazareth didn’t exist. There’s that “documentary” going around that claims he didn’t exist at all. But nobody within the academic community really takes that seriously. Even atheist scholars of religion like Bart Ehrman never suggest that he didn’t exist.

But if that’s not enough for you, that’s fine. No skin off my back. Just thought I’d chip that in there. Cheers!

Well, right. Yeah. Of course they wouldn’t say he was the messiah. They’d say he was a very naughty boy.

Jamie Mattox

you want proof you will have to break into tthe records room at the Vatican

White__Rabbit

It is not my job to do the checking Excidium. It is called Google, you should try it.

Saturned

Judaism for one. We don’t need no stinkin’ converts.

Robert Downer

Gonna take a shot here…are you a Wiccan?

White__Rabbit

Your shot would be wrong and my faith is not up for debate here. Like my political views my faith is personal and none of your or anyone else’s business.

Jamie Mattox

the only religion more violent than Christianity is Islam

White__Rabbit

I am well aware of the bloody and violent past of the Christian and Catholic religion.

Robert Downer

Gotta say something here. I am a Wiccan and I dont make it a point to defend Christan’s as I simply see they have enough defense with out me. Being a Wiccan I have had my issues with MANY “Christians” but that being said there are ALOT of good people who belive in that faith. I have no problem insulting the nasty bible thumpers who hate everyone other then other bible thumpers. But to say that everyone of ANY one kind of faith is bad…well thats just stupid.

VG Lovecraft

Your definition of “religion” is faulty, Trisha. “legare”, the Latin root of the word means simply “to bind together or connect” Hence, a religion is a method which we humans use to connect us to our origin and reason for existence, however each individual may interpret that connection. Indeed, Atheism and science are religions. It is not religion itself which causes harm, but the harmful actions done “in the name” of a religion.

Zennethe

You do realize that insane people are just insane. Religion does not create insanity. There’s plenty of insane atheists out there.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Maggie! I hate it when I happen upon a religious website and the comment section is all lit up with people slinging shit around about atheists. And I hate it no less to see the shit flying the other way. That kind of garbage is just self-righteous nonsense, no matter who’s doing it.

I’m a Christian, and I’ve got lots of really close atheist friends. (No, I’m not interested in converting them. I love who they are, including what they believe.) Not a one of them would ever be such an asshole as that person above, and I always wonder why more atheists like my friends don’t show up to rebuke the assholes. Thank you, Maggie, for showing up!

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

I used to be more like that guy. I did grow up, however. Thankfully.

And as a Canadian, religion is very minimally invasive in my life. It’s no skin off my back if you’re positive Lizard Jesus is coming for you tomorrow with a 300 foot peanut butter egg, as long as you don’t bug me.

It would be a way better tactic to convert me. Involve more chocolate in your religions and gods, and maybe we can talk.

Grand1

Hey Catholics give you wine…better than chocolate to some!

TattooedLittleMiss

Not good wine, though.

Betty

yea and you only get one sip. I mean who only drinks ONE sip of wine?????

rbd171

the same person who only eats one lays potato chip

James 2:14-16

LOL !! Your sense of humor rocks.

Mr. Aurelio

LOL that’s actually pretty good.

Thomas Carpenter

That would be Chuck Norris.

Peter_FairMarket

Chuck Norris doesn’t eat chips. Chips eat Chuck Norris.

Leandra Walker

You sir. Have my like

Char

There are people who only eat one potato chip?

Richard La France

I think there’s a bet on that.

hardwroc

I’ve heard that. Skinny little fitness fanatics, that can’t stop jogging long enough to have that second chip.

C P

hey, one sip is all it takes to loosen up an altar boy.

Kenneth Vaughan

I’m a Christian, and disagree with a lot of Catholic teachings, but
studies show that kids are no more likely to be abused in an Catholic
establishment, than in any other establishment that works with kids.
Some school districts are 10 times higher. Do you make jokes about all
of these other institutions, or does making jokes at a high population
religious group make you feel unique?

Clare

Yeah, seriously. As a Catholic, I often feel bigoted against when people accuse us of things that are shared equally by all people, or by many religious groups. I mean come on, people, we’re not the only ones to take a stand against homosexuality (Fundamentalists do too) or abortion (Muslims do too) or even contraception (Mennonites, anybody?), but somehow we’re always labeled the bad guys, bigots, and responsible for dishing out the world’s guilt. Hello, I’m a Catholic and I’m not here to make anyone feel guilty. I’m here to try and get to Heaven and if I can help someone else along the way, so much the better. If you ask me, I’ll tell you I’m Catholic; if you ask what that means, I’ll explain. And I’ll be happy and excited to do that and to debate all the theological, moral and philosophical points thereof, if you want to, and to think about what you say. But I won’t call you names, or put you down, or try to shove belief or disbelief of any sort down your throat–that’s not my job. That’s for the bigots.

Sanity

You should only feel bigoted against when people accuse you of things that aren’t in fact true. But, Catholicism does preach intolerance of homosexuals and it does preach against contraception and Catholic countries do have laws that prevent women from obtaining abortions even sometimes in cases of dire medical need. These things are facts. The fact that other medieval thinkers preach the same things doesn’t make them OK or give your religion a free pass. Righteousness does not consist of saying “well, he did it, so that makes it OK for me to do it”. The bible says that pretty damned clearly, if memory serves. So your argument as to why people shouldn’t criticize Catholicism on those bases is fairly weak.

FormerCatholicAthiest

Catholicism does not preach intolerance of anyone. It does teach that homosexuality is a sin. If you don’t know the difference between a sin and intolerance, you need to read more Jesus.

Kevin

Exactly! God doesn’t hate gay people, he hates the sin of homosexuality. A loving father loves his son, but he won’t put a stamp of approval on something he feels is wrong and immoral.
A lot of people assume that if you disagree with someone’s views that you are irrationally scared of them or you HATE them. Some believe that if you love someone that you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.

Cris Bessette

God doesn’t hate people that eat lobster, he just hates the abomination of eating lobster. (Leviticus 11:9-12)

interestingly_enough

Context, brother.Consider the Jewish audience in the Old Testament.

Cris Bessette

If religious people can reference Leviticus as evidence that “gay is a sin!” then the hypocrites need to read it IN CONTEXT and see ALL THE OTHER “abominations” in the SAME CHAPTER the same way. Cherry picking “abominations” and ignoring others is hypocrisy, Jewish audience or not.

Mike Regish

What difference does THAT make?

jaysee

Hey, if fairies at the bottom of your garden are your thing, I respect your freedom of thought. I’m sure the higher castes of christians, budhists, muslims, taoists, jews… could spend years persuading you to trust their brand of faith. But at the end of the day you only have 70+ years to decide what you want to do with your life. Spend that time well.

Lady Christian

this is old testiment anyway. this rule change in the new testiment

Cris Bessette

It’s hypocrisy to cherry pick the old testament and say, “no, this one changed in the new testament” but still follow other ones. If one “changed” then they all did.

Bryan ĸ McDonald

None of them changed.

Dave S.

If this is true, then why is every example of scripture that is used in the “new testament” taken from the “old testament”. The “old testament” is the only litmus test that was to be used for the recognition of the Christ. Jesus, all the apostles (including Peter), and even Paul many years later all followed the actual Law of the “old testament”. Even after the resurrection. Jesus himself even stated he was not here to do away with the law but to fulfill it. He clarified the law’s actual meanings. James even wrote that “sin is transgression of the law” (a new testament book). HOWEVER…Jesus never said a thing about birth control, or homosexuality, or abortion. He did say “judge not that you be not judged” and “he is without sin caste the first stone”. Sin between man and God should stay between them. He did, however, preach on providing for the poor, the widowed and orphaned. He did preach on acceptance and on being non-judgemental “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”.

Bryan ĸ McDonald

Ding, DIng, DIng, DIng !!!!!!

You sir, win the prize, you are CORRECT.

Lance

Lady Christian…you have just used the most ignorant and inaccurate excuse I’ve ever heard a Christian use…

The New Testament talking about the old testament.
Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot
or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Till all be fulfilled… Until Jesus comes back and fulfills revelations, no rules will be changed from the old testament.
People like you use your excuse to evade critical thinking questions. It’s not our fault your religion has loose ends that you can’t give an accurate answer to.

Mike Regish

Critical reading of the bible will always lead to discarding it and its god.

Lance

Are you saying that being critical about something is bad?? Especially something that is telling you how to live your life with THE biggest consequences at stake??
Taking something for face value is something that most people with common sense do not do.

cheri

and Jesus NEVER said “you shall follow my fathers’ laws”…..This is part of the reason I can not stand most Christians, you pick and choose what suits you rather than reading the whole bible; Old and New Testament, and understanding what your religion really means. Jesus died for mans’ sins ONCE, according to Leviticus, “the land worked by an impure man is impure and all that live on or of that land are impure”. Leviticus also gives measures to cleanse not only the land but the person. Jesus died to cleanse the land an man as a group one time, that does not give humanity a free pass for eternity. Once you actually read the whole bible rather than listen to what some man standing at a podium tells you, I might listen to you. Otherwise you are a sheep and as such are only good for slaughter.

AriellaHero

Cheri, first of all, I’m willing to bet that Leviticus line does not mean what you think it means, or most people for that matter. Since you don’t give chapter and verse I can’t give an exact comment, but if I had to guess, the context means ritually impure. And no, reading the whole Bible doesn’t help considering the Torah and the NT contradict each other constantly. Also, the laws in Leviticus only apply to Jews, not everybody, so why certain Christians feel the need to quote them (not referring to you, here, Cheri), and then get all high and mighty about how their testament is the Testament of “Love” where the Torah is the Testament of the Law, as if that Law, given by the God they say they worship is oppressive (and considering it’s only Jews who are required to follow it…)

Flora

As a Jew, AriellaHero, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Why people think all Torah laws apply to them is beyond me. Torah was given to the Jews. The 7 Noahide laws were given to the rest of the nations, please people start living the truth and STOP dwelling in the book of lies written and rewritten thousands of times that you call “new testament”. Gentiles, please visit http://www.en.noahideworldcenter.org/ for more info and educate yourselfs, and then you will be able to live a true and meaningful life.

Chad

Out of everything anyone has said on here, this is the only statement to actually offend me. Don’t restrict yourself to half of the story, read on and see the fulfillment of Scripture in Jesus Christ. See the incredible story God has crafted. It’s beautiful. If you are waiting for a Messiah, you can’t be disappointed by the true One.

Chad

Jesus did die for all of our sins, then and forevermore. He paid the price of death and broken relationship with The Father. But you are correct, some people see His sacrifice as a free pass for immorality. We aren’t perfect, but we must strive towards righteousness in our relationships with others and our actions. Jude 1:4 says: “For certain individuals…have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” I think we all have the potential to deny Christ or attempt to use Him as a free pass. Those of us who accept Him and believe in Him must be mindful to NOT see Him as a “license for immorality”. We are supposed to be guided towards righteousness by The Counselor (The Holy Spirit) not content with simply speaking words of obedience. Rely on and trust in Christ, but do not think that removes you from responsibility for your actions. We each have roles to play in the Kingdom of God.

Mike Regish

Except for the last part of the new testament that says that all of the old testament will be fullfilled.

And why would your perfect god write a book that needed to be changed later on?

ThatPerson

Well, God didn’t write the Bible.. man did.

chand

The rules have not changed.. Old & New are one Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus Fulfills the Law
17″Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

Bryan ĸ McDonald

NO they don’t

Proventus

Lobster was poor food at one time. Ask any newfie.

Kyle Voltti

During the revolutionary war captive british soldiers protested when they were fed lobster they felt it was inhumane to feed them what was essentially animal feed.

Shelly

God hates nothing. The end.

Heidi Mandato

God hates what man writes down on paper for him to hate…..

Talbolt Johnson

lmao!

http://GoAwayStalkers.com/ Athiest

“God doesn’t hate gays, he just hates homosexuality”?
Sounds like you religious types just found out its not cool to be bigots any more so you’re spinning and backtracking.
God must LOVE the homosexuality because he allows an entire 1/7 of the planet to form an organization which fosters and harbors child molesters, and he does nothing. It’s almost like he’s not really there. Weird.

Talbolt Johnson

God is not a man… and you should learn more about God, than be concerned with man’s interpretations of God…

MusicNomad

my thoughts exactly. people use their mind too much, over thinking everything. once you learn how to FEEL, then you will know that it is quite simple. not emotional feel, but spiritual feel. negative/positive vibes, energy, aura, chakra, spiritual energy, etc. They are all the same. To limit possibility is to accept defeat, but to have no boundaries also leads to a life of ignorance. Don’t be a blind sheep but also don’t be a close minded individual that exists in a single reality.

SunnyD

You really can’t “overthink.” Your feelings are thoughts, both emotional and spiritual. They are chemical responses to the world around us, produced by our brain.

Talbolt Johnson

yes, you can overthink, depending on what you goal or purpose is… you can definitely overthink, if it gets in the way of DOING and BEING. The mind is ours to control, not to run wild with….

Cargirl05

Sooo…in order to believe in your god, I should just stop thinking so much. Yeah, that TOTALLY makes sense….

Talbolt Johnson

LMFAO!!!! I said nothing about “in order to believe in MY god, you must…” LMAO… your post is a perfect example of what I was saying… No one told you to do anything… I simple said it’s possible to overthink, and I didn’t say ANYTHING about “my” God… omg, you are so funny… every time I read your comment, I laugh… cause it shows that you took what you wanted out of what was communicated to you… you thought way too much instead of just taking it as it is. It’s ironic…

SMNY

Maybe YOU can over think things. The mind is just like a muscle. Use it or loose it.
If you’re not thinking, well, then you might as well be a zombie.
Or a bible thumper…

Talbolt Johnson

yup!

ShutTheFuckUp

I read about halfway through this and I just want to say one thing.

WHO THE FUCK CARES.

Have a nice day;

Talbolt Johnson

you read about halfway through a comment that said “yup!” …. glad you can read… congrats,

1hotspec

How can you learn more about god without man’s interpretations? I personally haven’t heard of any talking burning bushes recently?

Talbolt Johnson

because there are some things that are universal truths. The mystics of all spiritual paths understood this. In fact, the mystics of each religion were more similar to each other than to the rest of their respective congregations. I can’t tell you everything, because I don’t know everything… but I do know that your personal journey and relationship with what you call a higher power has a greater impact on your life than anything else. I also know that for everyone, they receive messages from the higher power in their own way. Whoever you ARE as a person is going to decide how you pick up on messages from whoever or whatever you decide God is. So just determine for yourself what GOD (among countless other names) is, decide how it is you will communicate, and start communicating… it won’t take long before you are led to understanding how YOU take in these messages. You can learn a tremendous amount about God just walking… if you know what to pay attention to.

SMNY

You know, those were actually wise words.
Now if only everyone would realize that the only true deity is Science we might actually get somewhere…

VG Lovecraft

When “science” and “religion” recognize that there is no “conflict” between the empirical and the mystical, then Deity will be realized.

John Steven Dutton

LOL. Science is a very
interesting religion but has never seemed to lead anywhere except for the
perpetuation of so-called facts and the blind acceptance of popular scientists
and pretend scientists like Stephen Hawkins. Yes, I agree that the world is
round but am shocked that intelligent beings still believe in the myth that the
world is millions, if not billions of years old. They also believe that animals
have somehow changed into other animals. I would be very interested to see some
proper evidence for this….and yes I have studied Biology, Chemistry and
Geology to Advanced level. I am not, however, stupid enough to believe
that I myself am so advanced that I can forget about a designer who gave us the
miracle of life. I am a sinner.

SMNY

I can’t tell if your response is poorly constructed sarcasm, or you are really that obscenely deluded. I highly doubt you have studied advanced biology or chemistry or any of the other hard sciences. I’m sure that the extent of your scientific research does not go beyond your Sunday school bible classes and what those deluded “teachers” told you.
Nope, the Earth is what, about five thousand years old, right? And the universe is the same age. And everything on Earth, all the flora and fauna, it just spontaneously came into being. There were no dinosaurs, those bones were just left there by some celestial boogey man to confuse us. Or wait, even better,they all died out in a great flood that covered the earth and killed everything except one family, and two of each type of animal, and all the millions of species lived on a boat for that floated around the world. THAT is believable. Yeah, THAT isn’t completely crazy.
Oh, and who is Stephen Hawkins? You said a pretend scientist, so you couldn’t mean Stephen HAWKING. Come to think of it, I’m shocked you don’t believe that the world is flat and that the universe revolves around the sun. I mean, that is on par with the rest of your anachronistic belief system…

VG Lovecraft

{the Pagan nods in agreement].

Draco Argentmanus

Atheist: “God doesn’t hate gays, he just hates homosexuality” is the norm for the church… Expelling people for repetitive sin is the traditional disciplinary action when prayer, meditation and other milder disciplinary actions fail to take their course.

Joining a church is joining an organization where you are asking them to provide a service of educating you on what that church’s god wants, how to provide that want to said god, and how to censure yourself if you violate the agreed upon rules and guidelines said god holds you to.

Think of it like this. You join my club. I’m club president. I don’t like people getting drunk at club meetings. You come in drunk once. I assign you to a couple hours community service. You come in drunk twice, maybe this time you’ve gotten someone else drunk. I tell you to take a month off from club activities, straighten out your priorities, and decide whether you want to get drunk all the time or stay in the club. You come back from your break practically wasted, drinking as you enter the club meeting room (think of a college club, there’s lounges and offices used for club meetings usually). I inform you that you are no longer welcome in the club.

It’s not so different when the church expunges people who openly broadcast their sinfulness, and celebrate it openly. Do I think the church is hypocritical? Yes, because they don’t seem to have a problem with lobster, polyester or bowl-cut-hair, which are all abominations in the same books that prohibit homosexuality. Oh, and because the same book that prohibits homosexuality also allows for me to sell my daughter into slavery, I think we can rule the book out as utter rubbish.

That said… Please don’t equate homosexuality and child molesters, the way your final statement did. They’re two different things. One is a sexual preference, the other is a mental defect.

Also: people have forgotten what faith is about. Faith is about taking action. When someone says “Oh, there wouldn’t be such problems in the world if people had faith in God…” what’s actually meant by that is, there’s a lot of people who could stand up against violence, against sex crimes, slavery, starvation, disease, poverty and so forth, if they would just stand up and do something about it every day…. but that has less to do with supernatural intervention and more to do with self determinism. Being myself a soft polytheist (some days I’m an atheist, some days I pray to Odin, Morrigan, Hermes and Boccob), I don’t care to defend the church too much, but I do hate to see mud slinging going on towards an organization that actually does more good than harm.

Tom

Failing to realize that Christ’s return negated the laws of Leviticus? He came with a new covenant. Old Testament laws are for kosher Jews, not Christians. Read your Bible!

Also realize that Jesus hung out with the prostitutes and tax collectors (people treated by the church the same way “Christians” commonly treat homosexuals) and the ONLY people he ever went after were the false prophets in the church and those making money off of church. Confront Pat Robertson before you confront a homosexual.

Draco Argentmanus

Matthew 5:17 – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish, but fulfill them.” ~New International Version

Mike Regish

That “more good than harm” is definitely debatable.

DiscipleofJC

Hospitals, orphanages, the Red Cross, Universities like Harvard and Yale, countess scientific and technological breakthroughs, Abolition of Slavery, many human rights laws, and hundreds of thousands of organizations that feed, clothe, and educate the poor are some of the good things that have come from Christians. I’d say they have done more harm than good.

Betty

where do you get you information? How do you know these people were all christians? I know some people who pretend to be christian, because they are afraid if they dont they will be metaphorically burned at the stake. I think there a lot more atheists/agnostics than we realize.

Atheist: “God doesn’t hate gays, he just hates homosexuality” Ah so you admit he exists

Shawn Singer

And who made you all knowing? Ask a child molester and guarantee he will say it is just his “sexual preference” just like homosexuals say ” I was born that way”. The only difference is that society has decide that one is normal now and the other isn’t.

SunnyD

Um, you do know homosexuality is not pedophilia right?

ThatPerson

woah woah woah. now we’re grouping regular gay people who just happen to love the same sex in with criminals? what is up with that?

Shawn Singer

Well seeing as man is not perfect some of the people who call themselves Christians sin also. But of course you Atheists are perfect and no Atheist would ever do something like molest a child. So I guess if there was one of you who did than according to your standards all Atheists must condone child molestation and so must be just as bad. It’s a good thing all Atheists are perfect.

Chad

Most people will stick to their guns, bigoted or not, when confronted by an attack on their beliefs. God doesn’t hate gays. I say that because I BELIEVE it, and always have. Not because I want to sound more acceptable.

Betty

just believing that homosexuals are somehow more worthy of the label “sinner” is prejudiced and bigoted in my book. Homosexuals arent any more “sinful” than the rest of us, but for SOME reason religious people like to harp on that one A LOT. why? I think it has something to do with GASP! S.E.X. Religions are filled with a bunch of prudish, puritanical white men who dont want people to have fun in the bedroom (esp women and gays) Thats what I think.

Justaguy

So your blaming white men for the flaws of all religion?
I’m not even sure how to respond to that without letting my disdain for that comment show. ” Religions are filled with a bunch of prudish white men …” really? lol I’ll be laughing over this one for days, thank you for putting a smile on my face. I remember I stayed with my catholic aunt for almost 6 years when I was a boy, and she wouldn’t let me call or even write to or recieve letters from my GF because it was ” the temptation of the devil. For every man ( white or not you racists ) that seems prudish I can show you a woman cut from the same cloth. Let’s not cross over to gender predjudous here, we’ve got enough on our plate already betty.

Betty

Haha. YOU are making me laugh. Do you actually think women have power in the catholic church? Did women create the religion? Did they write the bible? are they allowed to be priests? Has there ever been a woman pope? Im taking about the people who make the rules and create the traditions and belief systems. all of which, NOT women. Of course, there are women catholics-they are the ones who are willing to bow down and follow the belief and value systems of MEN. and if I want to bring sexism into this discussion, I’ll damn well do it. Because if there ever was a religion ruled and governed almost entirely by men, its catholicism!

dozr

because women never do anything shitty with or without power….

Betty

did I say that? ever? No. so pay attention and argue the points made here, not bring up broad subjects that have no relevance to anything. this thread is about religious asshole-ishnes, and then it turned more specifically to the catholic church/religion. HELLO! Wake up.

Steve

Well actually you said “Religions are…” so no you weren’t just talking about catholicism, you were talking about all religions. So yes, you are an ill-informed bigoted asshole.

Hindu’s worship multiple female gods and the “mother of all gods” is a feminine deity.

Let’s see, there are the ancients or mystics who worship mother earth seen as a feminine deity

Most paganism and wicca revolves are feminine deities..

Want to argue the points made here? because I just destroyed your largest point… You’re a bigoted asshole

Betty

“bigoted asshole” wow thanks for bringing this discussion down to your level. If you have to go around calling people nasty names to make a point, then maybe you are ignorant and feeling defensive. I used a general word (religions/religious people) to describe what I encounter everyday in the usa. I dont live around and interact with Hindus (btw, who wrote the baghavad gita? NOT women) ancient mystics? are you kidding me-what relevance does that have in todays world? paganism I know a lot about and it is female centered, true. However, that doesnt make my statement any less true. How many pagans make policy or influence the social landscape of our society? NONE.

VG Lovecraft

Sorry, Betty, but I must disagree with your “policy and social landscape” point. Selena Fox and Circle Sanctuary got the pentacle approved as a religious symbol for inclusion on grave markers in the National Cemetery. https://www.circlesanctuary.org/

Betty

Ok so maybe its not NONE as I said. But really, are you saying that pagan ideas have as much influence in our government/society/thinking as christianity?? Because there is just no comparison my friend. Not even a close 1000th.

VG Lovecraft

I never said that “pagan ideas” have the influence that JudeoChristianity does. In fact, if JudeoChristianity had less influence on government, this country would be the better for it, IMO. And no, by that I am not implying that “Paganism” should have more influence, but that religion in general should be separate from government as much as possible.

Betty

Well its obvious you haven’t read the entire context of the thread I was responding to so, its pointless having anymore discussion with you. You missed my original point entirely. Please, don’t respond to someone unless you know what they have been/are talking about in the first place, ok?

VG Lovecraft

I was not commenting on your original point, only the “How many pagans make policy or influence the social landscape of our society? NONE.” part. Subsequently, you replied to me with: “Ok so maybe its not NONE as I said. But really, are you saying that
pagan ideas have as much influence in our government/society/thinking as
christianity?? Because there is just no comparison my friend. Not even a
close 1000th.”, and I gave my answer. I was not referencing Hinduism, nor calling you a “bigoted asshole” as Steve did. I informed you which part of your entire thread I was responding to. Yet, you chose to attack me. You needn’t have further discussion with me. I don’t have the time to comment on every single thought someone posts in a thread anyway. Blessed Be!

dozr

all religions are bad for everyone involved, women are just as much to blame for everything as men are.

Betty

I’ll have to politely disagree with you here without commenting further. I’ll just say one thing> I do not think women are superior to men in any way, shape or form or vice versa. That was never my intention, and I never said, nor implied that anywhere on this thread.

Talbolt Johnson

what does that have to do with what has been presented?

dozr

I have to say after rereading Betty’s comment I may have misread something there. But…. my point still stands women do shitty things too.

Talbolt Johnson

ahhh, just read this one… you meant Catholicism… yup!

Spuffy

NUKE THE GAY UNBORN MUSLIM BABY SHIKSA WHALE FOR JESUS!

Talbolt Johnson

how is she gender prejudice? She was stating fact… Christianity was spread, forced, and controlled by those in power in it…. they were white men. ” For every man ( white or not you racists )” Also… you have to understand… the word prejudice works in this context, but racism… NO. Racism is NOT an attitude of opinion toward something… it’s a structural and systemic component of society. So, you can’t be racist against someone who is marked by the system to be privileged… and Straight White Abled Bodied Young Male is the NORM… Your personal account of your grandmother not letting call your girlfriend makes what she said less true in no way whatsoever.

Semi Sane Person

I don’t mean to debate the general message you have here, but at least one point of fact seems a bit hazy. You state that “Straight White Able Bodied Young Male is the NORM”…

I would counter that statement with the suggestion that while that may have BEEN the norm, if you look at census records, White isn’t the majority any more. It may account for the most people under a single specific banner, but there are more non-whites than there are whites. At least as I understand it.

But regardless of the nature of who is in what majority… being prejudiced against anyone merely based on their skin color, gender, sexual preference, religion, income level or medical issues is just downright unenlightened. And while some people who belong to religions that claim such things as “Homosexuality is a Sin” may say that it’s their right to engage in whatever sin they choose, it’s still a judgement that what two lovers are doing is immoral simply based on a book that has no verifiable link to the claimed divine source.

Even if the divine source could be verified, I personally (and this isn’t a bashing statement against others who would choose otherwise) don’t think I could follow a God who creates people with certain predilections or predispositions toward liking a certain gender over the other, and then punishes them simply for being who he created them to be.

Finally, if it’s a sin to be Homosexual, isn’t God essentially sinning when he creates Homosexuals?

Talbolt Johnson

“if you look at census records, White isn’t the majority any more.” It has nothing to do with the population. It’s the control, ease of access to, and quality of resources…. but you know, you should do some research on what racism is, and on what privilege is, especially in Western Society, especially is you equate privilege to population…. smh….

Steve

Because she didn’t say Christianity.. she said “Religions”

Talbolt Johnson

and you’re right, because depriving women of their sexual freedom leaves them disconnected from cultivating one of the most powerful aspects of their being, the womb. but they didn’t anyone to know that shit…

Talbolt Johnson

but “Religions are filled with a bunch of prudish, puritanical white men”…. you mean the Religion of Christianity? Not Religions, period.

In this world of the “crazies” who want everything to be equal and fair and promote non-competition. When will they realise that we are not all the same. The ironic thing is that we are all the same in one aspect. We are all sinners. Every single one of us. Christians are sinners. All human beings are sinners. Christ came to this planet to revolutionize our human state and allow us to have freedom to live an abundant life: the best wine, the best sex and the best ever life. I have met many people in this world who seem to be unhappy and in pain and always negative. Jesus left His Holy Spirit on this planet to break our “chains of bondage”. Every time I mess up there is a way back through faith. There is a myth being banded around through ignorance that somehow christians are either good, or they are trying to be good to gain favour and Heaven. Christians are bad; they can never be good unless they are transformed and born again of the Spirit in a relationship with God through Jesus. Only when this is fully understood can a human really and truly “live” again.

mleebs

You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions, but I’d still like to ask you a few questions, some are probably a bit rhetorical. How do you actually know what God likes or doesn’t like? How do you know that “God” is a being rather than a concept? How did the human beings who wrote the bible know what God thinks? What if homosexuality was written as a sin by man without the guidance of “God?” What if you found out homosexuality was 100% biological? Lastly, if I disagree with homosexuality being a sin, am I still entitled to have that belief in your eyes?

ThatPerson

It has been proven that a small percentage of gay MEN are biologically predisposed for being gay. A hormonal influx in the womb causes male fetuses to develop the hypothalamus of a woman.

mleebs

Oh yeah? Where are the headlines? Where’s the sources? Where is proof? Your argument sounds eerily familiar to someone who makes all of the typical assumptions and generalizations about those who are gay. What are you going to say next? God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve? Give me a break. Its perfectly fine if you’re not into homosexuality. Frankly, I’m not into it at all because I’m heterosexual, but that doesn’t mean I have a problem with others being homosexual. It’s something that has nothing to do with me. Whats the problem with it if it’s not affecting you or “dismantling the foundations of our society?” It’s none of your business.

Diana M

The fact that you people think you can find God in a book says all there is to know about you. Pathetic.

Talbolt Johnson

that’s not pathetic… you can find God in a book… you can find God anywhere you look… if you are truly looking.

Mike Regish

That’s a cheap copout to mask your own prejudice, and you know it.

Cargirl05

And telling people that loving who they love is a “sin” is a form of intolerance. Regardless of how you try to cloak it.

Dick Zelony

I have ZERO interest in a deity that is concerned with penises and vaginas and what people do with them.

Terry

Um, how does this not breed a superior mindset that breeds hatred of those “sinners”?

You’re half correct: Catholicism does not preach intolerance. That would be the priests who do that.

John Stein

But you give Muslims a free pass? Why is that? Is it because in your religion of atheism, your preachers, the State, have brainwashed you into supporting Muslims in whatever they do, no matter if it is right or wrong? Why do you atheist, Statist fanatics not criticize Islam? Your entire atheist belief system is more than fairly weak and it is used to oppress everyone, even those that do not believe in the infallibility of your false god, the State. You are a dupe of the state, and harm us all with blind obedience to those with totalitarian aims.

Jeff

How many Muslims do you know, personally? How many people of the Islamic faith have actively tried to convert you to their religion?

The reason Western athiests don’t rip on Muslims very often is because there really aren’t that many Muslims in the major English-speaking countries, at least not compared to the number of Christians, or people professing to be Christian.

Talbolt Johnson

there are many Muslims in major English-speaking countries, and they don’t have time to try to convert anyone until the person starts posting internet garbage about them, because they are dealing with they’re experiences with forms of systemic injustice in Western society

hugh_g_rectios666

atheism isn’t a religion, jackass.
and im sure you don’t understand the difference between being atheist and being agnostic. a lot of people don’t. who is “us all”? the people gathered around your computer waiting for a response so they can neg it? internet fag..

really?

this sounds fairly unchristly if you ask me, calling people jackass’ and fags… what great roles people set

Talbolt Johnson

smh… you are speaking to one person, not the representative of an entire group…. we harm ourselves by focusing on the things that don’t matter…

Semi Sane Person

Nothing about being an Atheist says you have to believe in the power of the State. Your argument is invalid.

ThatPerson

Some people would be okay with a Totalitarian government, just like some people think Communism is a good idea, which it is. Of course it’s all theoretical. It’s all about what works for you. That’s why there are so many religions and forms of government. I believe wholeheartedly that these institutions exist because man wants a reason to be here and a way to get through life as peacefully as possible.

mindiaz

well I dont see yours as being much btr I dont have a religion per say actually I believe in something many think is ridiculous but how can you say that homosexual is right or ok? bc society told you it was? what about abortion? well there laws have been around a lot longer than ours they believe in something that is written that they are taught so do you its a circle you believe she believes but you are not the one that has the power to say shes wrong and your right..depending on your age if your over 30 I can bet a years wage that you believed the same thing 10+ yrs ago..I do know tho that after its all said and done your the only one putting someone down for what they believe she was just making a point..case closed

Talbolt Johnson

funny things is… it was Jesus that showed us how to act out of love… not law, right? Are we in a contract with God?

mindiaz

no why would you think that? You believe what you believe and thats all that matter you no ppl on here just push what they believe on others n talk trash bc others believe differently but out of it all you c its only the atheist non religious one doin it.. the Christians just defending themselves against yal being bigoted against them who cares move on theres more to life than this pointless bs

Talbolt Johnson

people get bored, they read stuff, they write comments… it’s the internet, the opinion space.

mindiaz

yeah i see now omg lol

Betty

yea hypocrite, I mean you are on here as much as the rest of us! why dont YOU move on?

Semi Sane Person

No, you’re wrong again. Some of the Atheists are being bigoted toward the Christians and other religious people here. Not all of them. Some of them are simply pointing out the truth in the negativity of the actions and venomous beliefs of those individuals who spew them.

Fighting against bigotry isn’t pointless, either.

mindiaz

lol w.e yals a crazy bunch all i can do is just laugh and shake my head

Laura

To the original poster: I totally agree with you. But I am super duper quadruple sure that the person that left this was NOT trying to evangelize. It was from people that had been tricked with the tract themselves and were trying to jerks/funny/cheap. I feel very certain that a Christ-ian wanting to tell the waitress about Jesus’ love would leave this instead of a tip.

Peter Bartley

Homosexuality is fine it hurts no one. I am not gay but I don’t understand why ppl are bigoted towards those who are.

mindiaz

well its new to you just bc you just jumped on the gay bandwagon along w majority of the rest of the US I dont hve anything against gay or abortion Ive done both both actually I also grew up n a religious family so I know..how is any one bigoted against anything they believe… you are too about things you believe who care its f***ing america and bc of ppl trying to make everyone believe in one thing this would be Nazi Germany but it seems to be goin in that direction anyways..

AriellaHero

Mindiaz, look up Godwin’s Law, and please get a grip. The US is not even close to where Nazi Germany was, and trying to use that invocation to scare people is cowardly, self serving and an insult to all those who died fighting the Nazis and all those who were murdered by them.

mindiaz

hunny who cares about that why are you all trying to justify yal stupid ideas everyone has their own my point..if knew who to read im not hating on anyone and like i said before if we all believed in the same thing or how yal want everyone to feel your beliefs are the right one it would but of course you have ppl like you ariellahero that feel you have to be the right one..no one is right me are all the same you ppl really need to open your eyes this is freaking sad how yal judge each other bc of what the other believes youd be alot happier in your life

Betty

The Nazis killed known homosexuals! Oh man, you are absolutely driving me crazy. Its about non-discrimination!!!! I dont care if you dont PERSONALLY agree w homosexuality. That makes not a lick of difference to anyone but you. It is those of you who try and shove YOUR beliefs down the rest of our throats through discriminatory legislation, hate speech, violence etc–which btw, is MUCH more close to Naziism than being loving and accepting of people different than ourselves!

mindiaz

I know it is thats what im saying are you not reading this right I put everyone has their own beliefs its why its the US wow ya’l are freaking nuts my post was completely nutral but sum how bc i mentioned if evryone believe in the same thing it would b like nazi which i really dont know i was just trying to say just bc ppl have beliefs doesnt make them wrong bc they believe in something different. cra cra ppl just want sumthing to argue about lol except everyone for who they are if they believe in something then respect it just like you would want them to do to you..and since this is online it doesnt matter you ppl r close minded my phone is blowing up of alerts to my email i was trying to give another view on things i can clearly c yal want to just argue over stuff yal no nothing about

Peter Bartley

You are just so wrong. I was brought up catholic. I am not American. I have had friends that were gay all my life. I am now an Atheist. I don’t know why anyone cares who you feel attracted too. Who cares!

Betty

case closed? lol. wow. I am 50 years old, and I NEVER believed homosexuality was a “sin” or “wrong”or anything else negative. my family believed in equal opportunities for ALL, and to not judge ANYONE except by the content of their characters, and thats how I choose to judge people. NOT by their sexual orientation etc. stop judging others based on what you THINK they are like, instead of who they truly are (which you do not and cannot KNOW!)

mindiaz

ok well you want a cookie my dear. wether thats true or not I know plenty of ppl who were murdered bc they were gay back in the day and even the cops wouldnt persue the case bc it was a gay person so yes tell the truth its new and no i dnt have anything against gays my room mate is gay…so read what i said hunny let the church catch up w the rest of us rome wasnt built in a day but bc they dont believe in what you do doesnt make them wrong you believe they believe your not the person to say someone is wrong bc you believe your way everyone is equal<——-thats my point but bc yal r so annoying n change ppl words yes biotch case closed

Thomas Masterson

BTW – You should read the actual writings on Birth Control. As most ignorant people do they make assumptions. The church’s position is that Birth Control would lead to out of wedlock births and the destruction of the Family. Wow, look at that. The Church was right.
Poverty today has a direct correlation to young un wed mothers, Fatherless homes. etc… You can disagree with the church, but they were right in what they foretold. With the advance of Birth Control we lost personal Responsibility and Morality. Or maybe that was just all the Acid of the 60′s and 70′s.

Tori Crossman

Exactly how does something that keeps you from getting pregnant (birth control stops pregnancy, in case you hadn’t heard) lead to out of wedlock birth? That makes absolutely no sense.

Want to know why there are so many unwed mothers and fatherless homes? Because they are forced to have unwanted children because no one will give them birth control. This isn’t about poverty or responsibility at all. The Church is only interested in punishing people for having sex before they get married, which is crazy in and of itself.

Ever notice how the places that have the least access to birth control have the highest rates of unwanted pregnancy? Gee, I wonder why that is. Could it be because preaching abstinence-only doesn’t work? Think about that a bit.

Thomas Masterson

Before Birth Control it was called personal responsibility. It wasn’t someone else’s fault whenever they made a bad decision. Birth Control and it’s mass use has lead people to feel free to do as they choose regardless of the outcome.
Don’t blame that on a lack of access to Birth Control. If that was the case then why were there so few out of wedlock births prior to the Mass distribution of Birth Control.
Will anyone ever be responsible for their decisions or will we keep making excuses for them. You think unwed mothers in America don’t have access to Birth Control? I guess you have never been it in a drug or grocery store. They choose not to buy it. It’s more important to have internet or cell phone or cable TV then to be safe.
I don’t preach abstinence, I preach personal responsibility. I don’t push my faith, but I don’t accept ignorant criticism either.

Talbolt Johnson

looks like you haven’t been keeping up with your women’s rights legislation…

ThatPerson

Apparently you haven’t read the Life Starts At Conception Bill of 2013

darkkerrigan

What about the women who actually NEED birth control for medical reasons??? I developed Epilepsy due to irregular periods and needed birth control to regulate my body and fix a hormonal issue….it drives me CRAZY when religion just throws all facts and reason out the window to support some of their crazy beliefs. And for all of those that preach pro life and are against a womans right to choose…Are you willing to support a baby with food stamps and welfare programs once it is born? Many of you vote against these things, yet do not want any form of birth control or do not want to allow a woman the right to choose….I get so damn heated when I think of all these idiots

Nova

Okay, hooooold up. You can buy condoms over the counter, yes, but you can’t buy the Pill, which is what most people associate with birth control. Buying this stuff falls on the woman, often enough, which is bad enough as it is. Young men don’t have the sense of responsibility that if they get this girl pregnant, it’s their baby too. No, it came out of her body so it’s hers, and he doesn’t have to have anything to do with it. But anyway, have you ever BEEN to some of these places with high unwed birth rates? I know several pharmacies, and even one town, where no condoms are even there to be bought, much less anything else! And often times, there’s an age limit on who can buy these things, and kids aren’t wanting to have their parents buy them. Again, yes, YES YES YES, I agree it’s about *personal responsibility*. Take responsibility for your actions and take precautions. Which is what birth control is *supposed* to be. Not an excuse, but a precaution. And why there were so few births out of wedlock? They were either shotgunned, the girl beaten until she lost the baby, or the girl was sent off for a year, had the baby, gave it up, and everything was hush-hush. You didn’t hear about it.

Semi Sane Person

“Don’t blame that on a lack of access to Birth Control. If that was the case then why were there so few out of wedlock births prior to the Mass distribution of Birth Control.”

Where are you getting your information from? Seriously, what source?

And personal responsibility for what? Buying and using contraceptives -IS- a form of personal responsibility. It’s trying to prevent bringing a life into the world that you aren’t ready to care for. And using birth control doesn’t absolve the parents from responsibility should the protective measures fail.

Of course if you are arguing that it’s personally irresponsible to have sex with someone to whom you aren’t married, then you are entitled to your belief on that… but it’s not a fact. There’s nothing factual about the notion that unwed sex is irresponsible.

Again, I’m really not understanding where your logic stems from.

Nova

Agreed. Look at back-woods West Virginia. Strictly Christian and abstinence-only, and yet there are so many unwed mothers and unwanted children that, oh goodness… It’s insane. I live in WV, anyway, but am lucky enough to live in the “city” (aka the big towns that we wanna think are cities but are not, definitely not, cities.) There were eighteen pregnant freshmen in my high school, and twenty more among the other three grades. And this? Is because they’re being taught that abstinence is the only way, or not being taught at all. Our health teacher taught about condoms (first time I ever heard of a female condom!) and birth control, and guess what? He lost his job, poor guy. He was a brilliant teacher, too, and gave us information that we needed without talking down to us or being inappropriate. I mean, heavens, if you don’t want to support medicinal or artificial birth control, teach about Natural Family Planning (which is what the lucky gentleman probably used to keep from getting his lady pregnant). It’s all about knowing your body’s cycles and knowing when the times to get pregnant are, and when not to.

missy

there were many unwed mothers throughout history. Heck in the 40′s and 50′s (and before) there were so many that they actually had to build houses, sanitariums, and other “homes” (and before that, convents did this as well) in which to house these unwed pregnant women and force them to give their babies up for adoption. especially in the case of a teenager as she had no right to make her own decisions. There were also fatherless babies during those times as the parents of the boy forced him into the military to get him away from the girl. Try looking at the realities of history and comparing it to the fallacies that the church teaches in order to have people believe their made up view of events.

Thomas Masterson

There have always been and always will be Fatherless Homes. Un Wed mothers, un wanted children and many other horrible things. However, it’s not the church’s fault.
People make bad decisions. It’s the nature of humanity. The question is how you deal with the decisions you have made. I’ve been married for 16 years and we have never had an unwanted child. We had premarital sex for the 3 years we dated prior to marriage. We never used over the counter birth control. We made good decisions, we were careful when we needed to be.
I’m not saying that everyone should follow the Church’s Doctrine. Follow whatever your faith(or lack there of) teaches. Make good decisions and take responsibility for your bad ones.

Peter Bartley

It sounds like you made bad decisions and were just lucky things worked out.

JOhn

So you had sex for three years and did not get pregnant just b/c you were smart? You realize that more people than not are trying to be smart but DO indeed get pregnant? Or is that you just trying to tell yourself that b/c you didn’t get your lady pregnant before marriage that the church is ok with your premarital sex? I’m not a christian and could care less if you had sex before marriage. But just b/c you didn’t knock your lady up doesn’t make your decision to have premarital sex and better than the person who did have premarital sex and did get their lady pregnant. You can “pull out” and still knock someone up…anything can happen. Don’t try and justify your immorality simply b/c you didn’t get caught, or in this case, dent’ knock someone up. Thats like me saying that someone is bad for doing drugs but I’m a closet coke head lol

Lissa

Uh, since when is birth control a new concept? You do realize that it has been widely available in different forms since like, ancient Egypt right? Not just condoms either, but early attempts at chemical birth control.

“I’m going to have sex, I really don’t want to get pregnant so I’m going to take something to prevent that.” That sounds like personal responsibility to me.

Also, marriage is a cultural concept. The link you are actually looking for is societal pressure. Unwed mothers were not treated very nicely, regardless of character. The easy way to avoid that was to get married, which you could do before physically showing. I mean really, would you want people judging your moral fiber and entire existence based on getting pregnant? That sounds like a shitty existence.

Betty

Just because you got lucky, doesnt mean every other responsible person who tries will too. pregnancy is usually a complete crap shoot. some women are more fertile than others as are some men and there are a whole host of other complications–like irregular periods!!! etc. when many many (if not most) people utilize the “rhythm method” (like you have done successfully) as their only “birth control” method there are MORE unwanted pregnancies, not less. its just not a reliable method! Science and scientists brought us birth control. if we can, we should use it. (btw, I know plenty of women/men who have been very responsible, used BC and STILL got pregnant!)

Talbolt Johnson

or maybe birth control is an actual need in this modern day age, and the breakdown of families in systems of poverty is actually caused by a myriad of factors that have laid down the foundational structure for society as we know it today… but no, lets blame it on the birth control pills…

john

most people in the church that have out of wed lock sex that leads to an out of wed lock child, just get married before the kid comes along so it looks all hunky dory to the church. Birth control is a much more responsible choice than rushing into a marriage so the church thinks you’re ok still. That is a joke that “shotgun” weddings are ok in the church but having a kid and living with another woman would be wrong along with smart planning of birth control. Your response…”most christians don’t have premarital sex”

WRONG! Most do lol. So are they immoral? I went to a christian school growing up and the percentage of kids having sex and doing drugs was higher than the surrounding public schools. Are they more moral than non believers? In most cases I see that christians/catholics are no better than the “immoral non believers” but they think that the title makes them a better person. It’s pathetic. This comes from someone who has lived this his entire life. I have recently told my family to stop trying to convert me b/c I can’t stand the hypocrisy that constantly comes out of the church. With that said, continue to believe whatever makes you happy.

Nova

I am a Christian, and I proudly hold that title, but even I’m ashamed of the hypocrisy that comes out of the churches I’ve been to. I have met horrible, terrible people who think that they’re all in the right because “Well I’m a Christian.” Yes, but you’re also an abusive asshole who steals and abuses drugs and hurts the people close to you on purpose. And that person is…somehow better than my lesbian friend who is an all-around sweet girl and goes out of her way to help people and make people happy, but just so happens to be a girl who sleeps with girls? Sometimes I do have to wonder.

Nova

I think it’s just the acid and other mind-altering drugs of the sixties and seventies. And while I do respect your view and opinions, I do not agree with blaming poverty on birth control pills, especially as most young women who are impoverished can hardly afford them. Condoms are a bit more affordable, but they are not strictly birth control. They help prevent spread of disease. No, I think the reason we’re in this scrape is because no one is learning personal responsibility. Everything is always the other guy’s fault, be that the church, god, atheists, or that poor old man down the street who wanders around with his goat. It’s always someone else’s fault, and never our own. That’s where I think our breakdown is.

Betty

I actually agree with this one point but you muddied the waters A LOT by saying all that other junk about birth control etc. I think you are trying to back-peddle. good for you.

Nova

Okay, sorry about that. I was joking in the first sentence of the statement, just so that we’re clear there. Can you please point out where it seems like I backpedaled? I’m afraid that isn’t very clear to me. Not saying I didn’t–heaven knows I probably talked myself in a circle–but I’m not sure where I did. If you’ll be so kind. Thank you!

Betty

oops! my mistake. I meant to reply to thomas masterson No wonder I was agreeing w you! Darm it! thought maybe he was changing his mind a little bit. lol.

Nova

Ah, okay! Well thanks for being civil about it, either way!

Semi Sane Person

Yeah? That’s funny. I was pretty sure that Birth Control actually made it so that -fewer- births took place as a result of sex outside of (and sometimes within) marriage.

People had sex with other people outside of wedlock before contraceptives existed. Contraceptives just made that safer to do. It also made it safer to have sex with your married partner without the risk of having another child to feed, which in and of itself would lead to more poverty.

Your argument is a little shaky.

Sex isn’t evil. Sex outside of wedlock isn’t evil. The only evil sex is that which is forced on someone when they are unwilling, or unable to resist.

Lady Christian

ALL old world religions teach homosexuality as a SIN! islam calls to kill them. Christianity in any other religion teaches to love the sinner hate the sin. this is not intolerance. any holy book tells us homosexuals will not enter Heaven, nor do murders of the innocent, rapists or any of the other major sins of this nature. You sanity need to learn what intolerance means. this usually coomes from the ignorant left side who have no real faith or belief other then their way or no way

J

Any holy book written by people who have their own interpretation on the “word of god” as it was “given to them” you mean. Anyone who takes the written word of any religion without giving it context is a fool. Take a look at the times in which these texts are written, what was the political climate? What were the social mores? What was considered acceptable and what was not? Then take a look at what was written and peel back the layers of social construct, remove the bigotry disguised as religion and see what the actual message is supposed to say. It’s not homosexuals are bad and never get into heaven nor is it black people are lesser beings, instead try love thy neighbour, do unto others and so on.

Betty

I have a VERY REAL belief system. Im an atheist and a humanist. I believe in justice, equality, freedom and zero tolerance on discrimination towards any group or individual because of sexual orientation,religion (or lack thereof), race, creed or gender.

Semi Sane Person

Lady Christian,

“the ignorant left side”? Wasn’t there something in the bible about not casting judgement? Try as you might to pretend that you’re some pillar of Christian authority, you’ve just violated one of your book’s laws. And before you try to argue that I’m missing your point, let me also say that I’ve known more than my fair share of far left people who are still very Christian. The difference is in the separation of Church and State.

And you claim that they are ignorant because they have no real faith or belief other than “their way or no way.” Isn’t that basically what most major religions teach? “If you don’t follow our laws, you will go to hell/hades/the underworld/duat/the abyss/mcdonalds/whatever…” Not to mention the mindset that “If you don’t follow my religion, you’re wrong.”

So yeah. Quite enlightened.

That Person

Intolerance: unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one’s own.

Ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

although these are some not-so-common forms of beliefs, here are some groups who believe homosexuality is not a sin: Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Humanism, and Paganism. They may not have a “holy book”, but they have guidelines and principles just like the Bible does.

I would also like to say that you, ma’am, are being rude for saying that those who have “no real faith or belief” are all ignorant. We are not, especially compared to you.

Shawn Singer

Get your facts straight. Catholicism does not preach intolerance of homosexuals. It preaches that homosexuality is a sin and to condemn the sin not the person. There are no Catholic countries, there are countries that may have a large Catholic population. The Church is against abortion but it is the people who make the laws, even the bad ones. Also the Catholic church does not preach against contraception and hasn’t for many years. So get your facts straight before you go accusing people of things you know nothing about.

ThatPerson

What’s your definition of “many year(s)”? The reason the Catholic Church is against contraceptives is because sex (after marriage of course) is because sex is an expression of the life-giving love between two people of the faith that has been given to them by god. I’m not even Catholic and I know and understand this.

Shawn Singer

Again they are no longer against contraception. the rest of what you said is true. they do believe that sex should be between man and woman who are married.

Robert Barr

next you will be argueing that laws against rape and murder are out dated since they are based on religious morals.

Micah Shenk

Faulty, faulty reasoning. I’m a Christian, but that was a horrible rebuttal. The laws against murder weren’t just religious, it’s also not beneficial for humans as a species. Rape goes against the freedoms that people are expected to have. It’s not just “because it’s wrong.”

ThatPerson

No it’s not. Humans have a capacity for moral judgement which is what makes us “more advance” than other animal species. We could develop basic human rights without religion.

Scott Britton

I agee that Catholicism like everything human is not perfect. I persoanlly do not agree with any form of intolerance but I feel that making and effort to discipline myself to take time for God, and some days I see that is simply “good orderly direction” other days I feel somethiing more, this takes the focus off of myself and reminds me that there are at elast some who are trying to improve our behavior. I once met a woman who had this to say about her husband, “That man needs no self improvement, he is great just the way he is”. Well if this is true for you more power to you. The reason I go to church is not becasue I am CAtholic, it’s becasuew I know that I bascially suck, and I am a bit less worthless when I at least put forth some effort. Do I need to go to church to do that. Proabbly not, but I do find that the messages at church are usually (though not always) more positive than what I remember from my days in the clubs. So I guess I’ll just stick with the averages. The funny thing is that anyone us who is ALIVE would be so ignorant to think that we actually have a corner on the truth. I think the evidence is pretty good that there is an intelligent designer behind life. And I like to believe in a compassionate God who is going to explain all of the random shit in life one day. But the truth is I have no idea if this is true, I do believe that it is and I think that standing up for that belief is just being honest. Know one can prove that there is no God any more than I can prove that there is a God. therefore any snotty behavior one way or the other must be bias. Intention is important in my book. I don’t intend to offend anyone. But if someone is offended I really don’t lose any sleep over it. Iti s kinda silly to alllow ones self to be rattled by a self professed athiest as if one has never heard the case made by an athiest before. Some juries buy the argument some don’t neither have an ounce of tangible proof. Though I would say that I can make a stronger circumstantial case for intelligent design than I could for evolution and that is coming from a science major who owns a copy of Darwin’s Origins of Species. But my case would still be circumstantial and not really based on a direct uncontestable proof.. I rest my case for Catholic agnosticism. But my beliefs are based on my feelings and intuitions more than they are science. We can find things to back up anything we can imagine. Human beings are very creative. But that is becaue we are made in the image of God.

Randomx6

Tell your Cardinals and Bishops to stop trying to excommunicate people who disagree, to stop hitting the newspapers to preach to the multitudes of non-believers your version of the truth, and to stop preventing health insurance for non-catholics and then, maybe, you have a point.

John Stein

I assume you will gladly pay for the health insurance for all of those indigents? I bet you don’t want to pay one cent towards that.

Kevin Boyle

I certainly do. We all have a right to life (as well as liberty and the pursuit of happiness).

sam

Im sry I just wana know who this post is to bc im pretty sure Clare has nothing to do w what you posted so y blame reg ppl again?

Lady Christian

if you are going to be a catholic you believe their ways. how hard is that to understand. if you work for the catholics then you follow their rules. how hard is that? people should not be forced to change thousands of years of faith so a few modern day hippies who have no faith can feel comfortable in their sin

Justaguy

To not believe in YOUR religion is not to say someone has ” no faith ” that is about the least christian thing I’ve seen anyone post today, especially from someone who’s religion says if you commit terrible sin, you just pray for forgivness and it’s like it never happened, the etch-a-scetch program. (see what I did there, turned your comment’s theme back toward you, and you don’t appriciate it at all do you? Learn from that and treat others accordingly)

Talbolt Johnson

don’t forget… not PRAY for forgiveness… PAY for forgiveness… truth is, you are forgiven already, we judge and punish ourselves… but yeah not pray… PAY… lol

Semi Sane Person

Once again we see Lady Christian being judgmental of people, even against the beliefs she professes to follow.

Good show.

Semi Sane Person

I agree with most of this, except one part.

They are and should be free to excommunicate people who disagree with their rules/regulations/beliefs. Someone who joins a club and repeatedly breaks their rules will be removed from said club. This is no different. Why would you want to be a member of the Catholic church if you disagreed with them so much anyway?

Scott Goeft

i must remind muslim comes from the same main stories and plots,as does mennonites and fundamentalists are a political group made from a country based off of religous freedoms which went from chatholic to prodistents but all the same main story books. by the way im agnostic i am no athiest if given evidence to support the claim i will follow anything.

Scott Goeft

and i did not here any denials of the allegations against the Catholics just pushing the dime off to someone else

I’m not a Catholic, nor even a Christian, but do you expect this kind of venomous attack to carry any weight or respect? If you disrespect the followers of a religion just because of the actions of someone who is acting decidedly -against- the beliefs and tenants of that religion, you are just proving your lack of enlightenment. Yes, there are corrupt elements in the Catholic religion’s power structure. But you shouldn’t blame the people who follow the religion itself.

Inflammatory comments like this just make you look moronic.

Howard Hendrickson

I disrespect religion, period. Anyone who believes in gods, the tooth fairy, santa claus, or any other fictional being is a moron…

cmac

As a Catholic, you should feel pretty proud lately. You guys have picked, by far, the most CHRISTIAN Pope ever to grace the Vatican. Nothing but respect for Francis. Finally, the Catholics are back on track with a good, kind man.

Dreamgyrl360

I DO love Pope Francis.
He surprises me all the time.

Jason Scholefield

Atheists that like the pope? Yeah your argument for the pope is invalid. sorry, but if the world loves him he is not of God. Just saying.

Mary Ann Johnston

I think they were speaking of his moral stances. Not every atheist is immoral just as not every Christian is immoral. It’s when a pope starts making points with immoral people that you have to worry. I have a strong faith and I have to say that I agree with most of his stances.

Adam

That argument is invalid. Incredibly invalid. I’m a Pagan and I like the Jesus guy from the bible. Had some good thoughts. Just saying.

VG Lovecraft

Not true. As a Pagan, I can say that I do appreciate the new Pope’s attitude. And, “if the world loves him, he is not of God”? Which God are you referencing. Oh, sorry. You’re probably an Atheist, whereas I am an “All-theist”.

Lacerated__Sky

As an agnostic with one foot in the atheist grave, I must say, Pope Francis is a pretty great Pope.

As another like you, I have to agree. He’s impressing the hell out of me! (Pun intended as an after-thought!)

Killashandra

Yes, I’m an ex-catholic who was severely disillusioned with the Catholic church – but, so far, I like this new pope!

Bryan ĸ McDonald

Ah yes, another recovering Catholic.

BarbaraT

I hope you haven’t lost your Faith just because you lost your Catholic faith.

Diana M

The Catholic/Christian people didn’t pick the new Pope. It’s a political appointment made by the few not the many.

Sam Crnk

Those “few” can make a far more educated decision than anyone else. While democracy is far less dangerous – since greedy and corrupt leaders and politicians can be voted off eventually – the rule by a few is far more efficient, effective, and good when those few are looking out for the well-being of the Church and its people.

Sam Crnk Licks Illuminati Cock

you sound like a moron with an elitist complex

Crnkdaddy the Brave

Apparently I lick cock, too….

Jon Koehler

Hey its your thing do what you want to do. In the end we will either face our judgment day or just lights out. Its all our choices, that said chill bitches.

Sam Crnk

I totally respect your decision there.

Jeremy

I would argue that the Vatican has been a fairly corrupt ridiculous political state for quite some time now. They havent looked out for the catholic faith very well as of late

BarbaraT

And in very secret confines no less

Proventus

As long as they don’t kill him for reforming. And I say this as a Catholic.

MoriyaMug

Yeah, he also excommunicated a priest for supporting gay marriage. So fuck him and his stupid hat and golden throne.

chand

Man will do what man has always done.. Jesus is not man.. Man is detestable and Jesus came here so that he can turn our worthless selves into something better.. For those who seek him.. A true believer in Christ would have never done this to someone. But to say what you have just said.. I am going to pray for you because .. One you will have to stand before the throne of the Lord and you are going to have to answer to that.. If you trullly new him you would neverrrr say this.. Do you see all the things that are happening in this world.. Look at what just happen in the Phillipines.. The Lord is not silent in any of this. This too will come to our shores also .. But its by his Grace that you are able to mock him .. but know this he will not be mocked for Long.. so I am sure you are going to have something nasty to say about this but know as you spit venom to me about Christ know he is blessing me..

Galatians 6:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Robert Barr

AMEN ! May GOD bless you !!!!

DobromirMG

Robert Barr, you sound like the kind of person who’d leave a prayer instead of a proper tip.

Brighton Rose

So I guess you’re a better christian than the ones in the Philippines that prayed to live, but lost their lives? Gosh, you must be so…proud.

Chad

I didn’t read past Jesus is not man. Jesus was and is fully God and fully man.

Chand Loves the Lord’s Cock

please shut the fuck up! for god’s sake, man, NO ONE HERE came for a sermon.. even the Christians dont want to hear your shit here!!

idoxray

Amen Brother or sister! Thank you for standing up and all you say is true…God is mocked bc he allows it but soon come Christ Jesus

Adam

Christianity is one of the world’s youngest religions. It is comprised of stolen practices and stories of other religions. If there ever were a Jesus, I hope he comes and takes you away very soon, so we can have our world back.

VG Lovecraft

In the interest of historical accuracy: All religions “steal” from those which they are “conquering”, or simply appearing later in history. The Greek deities inspired many Roman equivalents. Zeus to Jupiter, Aphrodite to Venus, etc. And “Neo-Paganism” (as an “umbrella” category) is very young indeed.

Durpadurpeeedur

its actually spelled “knew” not new, guy.

Adam

I love how some of you hop on this high horse and blame people for misfortunes that fall on them. You treat tragedies and natural disasters as gifts from god. You make me sick. You are a terrible Christian. You are a terrible person. If there is a hell, you are going to be incredibly surprised. Don’t worry though. There isn’t. Hell wasn’t invented by man until they couldn’t explain disease. Even the name was stolen from another religion’s beliefs (see: Norse Goddess of the underworld Hel)

MoriyaMug

Yeah, scripture doesn’t impress me. The Bible is not evidence; the Bible is the claim.

And sorry to borrow a cliche, but hey. You pray for me; I’ll think for you.

Robert Barr

Since “marriage” is a union between a man and a woman there is by definition no such thing as gay marriage.

Brighton Rose

My husband & I respectfully disagree. And we have the piece of paper to prove it. We didn’t need your god to be married, but everyone needs that piece of paper. Christianity did not invent the institution of marriage, nor will it be allowed to define it.

Chad

As a Christian I agree with you. According to my belief God created and exemplified the institution of marriage, being eternal. But it is true that humanity and, more specifically, our country has redefined marriage as a legal binding, rather than a religious one. If I have a problem with gay people getting married since their union does not meet the expectations of my faith, then shouldn’t I also be against Muslim marriage? Or Hindu? Atheist? Why do I accept these things as different but acceptable? Because I recognize that they are only LEGALLY the same as a Christian marriage, but that beyond that they are practicing their own beliefs. Daniel lived in Babylon, a pluralistic society, with no complaint against what the government allowed. It was when the government DISALLOWED the practice of his faith that he took a stand, not when it allowed others in that society to legally sin (according to his beliefs). I have no authority nor desire to judge those outside of my faith for their actions or to compel them to adhere to my morals through the passing of a law. If two gay individuals want to have a Christian marriage and a priest or minister is willing to perform that for them, then I simply believe in a different God than they do and I should therefore not be offended by their union. It’s ridiculous.

Betty

I wish all christians were more like you.

idoxray

ummm you must not have read the bible as it gives a clear definition of wat a true marriage is j/s

Adam

Actually, it does. It says that a man and his wife shall become one flesh. They shall be naked and unashamed. THAT is in Genesis, and that is the ORIGINAL marriage. Sex.

Violinist4Eternity

If you want to make a convincing argument against gay marriage, do the research into the motivations for objecting to it. There is so much more to it than “man and a woman.”

The church’s full argument is more towards the concept that homosexual sex has the potential to be physically damaging. Other concerns aside, any tears in that region stand a much higher chance of becoming infected due to what passes through them, and there’s less natural defense there (whereas an injury in the mouth, for example, tends to heal much faster and, if I’m remembering correctly, saliva also fights infection). The church says that if you love someone, you won’t put them in any risk of injury, yet in order for a marriage to be consummated the couple must have sex. It would therefore be impossible for a gay couple to consummate the marriage without committing an act that is potentially harmful to one partner or the other. This argument is somewhat flawed as (at least to my findings, feel free to look further) there is very little data proving the physical harm. By that note, the church should object to any and all medications that have any possible side effect, driving… anything which could cause harm. If we can excuse other risk-taking activities, why not this?

A further reason is because according to the church, you cannot get married unless you intend to have children. You are not married unless that first night of your marriage, when you consummate the marriage, it is with the intent of pregnancy. Until then you technically are not married. If you are aware that you cannot conceive, you cannot get married. The church upholds this concern in regards to homosexual couples; how often have you seen the church refuse marriage to couples unable to have children, or unwilling? Do we demand that the state question every straight couple before granting them a marriage license in order to confirm they intend to have children? Does the church look at each married couple that has only three or fewer children and revoke their marriage license if they can prove there was birth control used? I have yet to see any such occurrence, yet it’s enough to illegitimate homosexual marriage?

Aside from your lack of research, however, there’s one major problem with your argument; you offered only your own, or perhaps the church’s, definition of marriage. But what if no one is demanding that it fit the church’s definition? Separation of church and state, to the state marriage is a contract, not a sacrament. The same word is used, but there are totally different meanings. There is no justification for creating laws based on a definition that does not apply.

Anyway, next time you want to argue something, at least know the full argument. I don’t agree with the church’s conclusion regarding homosexual marriage, and it’s that much more frustrating hearing it so simplified that it sounds nothing short of ridiculous.

The dude

Bro, I follow your logic and it’s beautiful.

I just do not believe gay marriage or actions to be morally acceptable. but it’s impossible to make that argument politically, given the separation of church and state. Which is quite the conundrum; I believe homosexuality to be the destroyer of countries (historically speaking, many super powers have fallen directly following the rise in homosexuality and its acceptance). I also believe in free will, and the pursuit of your own beliefs.

^^<- so how is one supposed to reach a conclusion when two beliefs don't agree?

There is truth in the world, we just have to find out what it is.

have a blessed night

Chad

Read my above post. I think it speaks to this. The problem is that Christians want so desperately to hold onto the definition of marriage, but our society has already redefined it. In the forward to his book, Mere Christianity, C.S Lewis talks about the word “Gentleman”. He tells how it used to be a word for a very specific type of person (land owner, wealthy, etc.) but that somewhere along the way that word was redefined and now it can apply to anyone, assuming they exhibit honorable traits in a given moment. Traits that may have once been attributed to actual Gentlemen, but that any person is capable of demonstrating. “He held the door open for me, he’s such a gentleman.” When a word is redefined by the world there is no “getting it back”. I can’t say to that person, “He is not a ‘gentleman’, he is just a high school student that opened the door for you,” because by today’s definition he IS a gentleman. Marriage is one such word. Give up the word and hold onto the morals within your own life and faith community. We cannot apply it to others.

Jeremy

If your examples of civilizations that fell are only the ones mentioned in the bible you have a bit of an invalid argument there. The Romans fell because they stretched too far, The Greeks fell because they were too busy fighting and got destroyed by Alexander. Homosexuality had nothing to do with it and never will

Isilzha

That’s hilarious and totally ridiculous…pregnancy and childbirth are one of the most potentially physically damaging things for a woman to go through. For most of history it was one of the leading causes of death for women.

Also, I really don’t care what your church or your “god” (aka, the people who invent religion) have to say about anything.

Violinist4Eternity

If you had bothered to read the entirety of my comment, you’d have seen I was arguing against each point the church makes. Though I don’t agree with your rudeness, I am on your side on this particular debate.

http://www.illustratedbykarenjones.com/ Karen Jones

Childbirth quite often causes tearing as well.

And if they’re objecting to the risks of gay anal sex as the reason to deny gay marriage, then they must never have heard of lesbians who don’t need that particular sex act to consummate their union. Or of hand jobs and blow jobs and such that can be used instead of anal sex. Or just the practice of going slow and using lube so nobody gets hurt.

Betty

Also (I agree) but what about straight people who have anal sex??? many, many, many do. So, even THAT argument is not valid. Lets admit it, the catholic church (as do many churches/religions) were created by man to control how people THINK and therefore control what people do. Period. These people believe that everyone should live and think like they do. Because THEIR way is RIGHT. That is how I envision religious people in general, but I know not all of them think this way. But damn, it sure seems like a majority of them do. I think the crux of religion is about fear of differences among humans (so they made up rules and regs from the bible) and the fear of death (believing in a supernatural being that loves them for eternity/afterlife). two very basic drives that have motivated countless atrocities, intolerances and hatreds. We are ALL scared to some degree. Heck, I dont wanna die but my reasoning overcomes any desire to fool myself into believing in fairy tales. Just cause you want it to be true, doesn’t make it so.

Violinist4Eternity

I both agree and disagree with you here. One thing to note is that according to the church, it is just as sinful for a heterosexual couple to have anal as it is for a homosexual couple to do so. It’s not exactly something the church can enforce without breaking into their bedrooms to check, though, so again we have a situation where heterosexuals can get away with something that homosexuals can’t.

However, I’d like to specify that I myself am religious. I learned what I know about where the church stands on this question by contacting the writer of the textbook my Christian Education class used (I won’t use his name only because the emails were private). By the end of the conversation he’d agreed that if a homosexual couple wanted to get “married,” so long as they did not ask it to be a “marriage” as defined by the church (because kids, consummate, etc expressed in my previous comment), and if they had a sexless relationship (because anal is what’s sinful), then that would be something the church couldn’t argue against. He did, however, feel it would be horrifically unfair to tell someone they could commit to each other for life but not have sex. That said, what happens in the bedroom isn’t exactly something the church can control (as you pointed out, anal among heterosexual couples as well, not to mention contraception…) so there’s hardly any justification for preventing that.

Anyway, my point is, that not all religious people are unyielding – in fact, most aren’t, in my experience at least. Of course people in some regions will be much more extreme than others (the Bible Belt being a clear example), but I don’t think I’ve encountered a single Christian who expressed being against the legalization of gay marriage (not that there weren’t likely some, but they weren’t vocal). The illusion that it’s the majority stems from the fact that those that are against it are very vocal about religious causes, while those that are for it are for it without needing to use religion to justify their argument. In a general debate about homosexual marriage, I’m going to say that I support it because x, y, and z, not “but the Bible says man and a woman so your argument is invalid!!!” The result is you know the bigots by the arguments they raise, but the rest of us go unnoticed because we’re raising arguments of our own and acknowledging that we can’t ask the world to follow legislature based on a religion specific to ourselves. Please don’t let yourself think it’s a majority; there are plenty of religious people who acknowledge that there is no justice in acknowledging only those who agree with us, and I will never try to force my religion on anyone.

Betty

Screwy Louie

Do you mean a man and a woman can’t be happy if they are married? My wife and I have many gay times together.

http://www.illustratedbykarenjones.com/ Karen Jones

Marriage is a word. Definitions of words shift over time. By definition, gay used to just be a synonym for happy and queer just meant odd. So, yeah, by definition marriage USED to be just between one man and one woman. But that is now outdated. You might not LIKE that the contemporary definition of marriage has shifted to include homosexual unions, but that doesn’t change the fact that it has.

Adam

If you were educated, or even read your bible, marriage was simply becoming one flesh. It took ONLY that. No man-made ceremony that came centuries after. You are just wrong. Plain and simple.

MoriyaMug

The Bible doesn’t define it as that. Not that it would matter if it did, since the concept of marriage is not Christian in origin.

whitney

YESSSS!!!

realist.

excuse me, but i was raised catholic, followed the bible to a t, and no where in the bible does it say its ok to treat people like shit because of what they believe in. 20 years later i now know that catholicism is a joke, and a cult of people who are too phobic of life itself to deal with it and use the bible as a way to make it ok to make other people feel like absolute shit.

Elie R

Well Said!!!

Terry

That’s like saying: don’t look at me, THEY do it too. Doesn’t make it any better

But I do get your point

Shea

I’m an Atheist and I have to hand it to the Catholics I like the new Pope that dude’s been pretty awesome. I actually believe he believes in what he’s doing.

hereinWA

My Native American people might question that…Catholics and their relatives, the Jesuits, have been behind most of the atrocities, the biggest ones, committed against our people, especially the children. Boarding schools, etc.

llama

I don’t have bad feelings toward Catholics so much as the Catholic church. It is by far the richest religion in the world, and has had the most power throughout history. That is why it’s so heavily targeted.

Scott VudderHütz Rodger

it’s the catholic churches track record man. it’s the years of witch burnings, child rape, eating of muslim babies. fuck just look at the crusades in general. have you ever read your bible? have you ? actually read it and took it in. no you have not because you would realize you are a sinner and should be put to death. have you ever worn pants “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.” This verse — Deuteronomy 22:5 — is one of the most commonly quoted and debated verses in the Old Testament……. here it gets deeper ever where clothes of different colors at the same time…. how about this one for you bro ? Leviticus 19:19 (multiple translations from multiple re writings of your suposed holy doctrine American King James VersionYou shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle engender with a diverse kind: you shall not sow your field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come on you.

American Standard Version
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with two kinds of seed: neither shall there come upon thee a garment of two kinds of stuff mingled together.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Keep ye my laws. Thou shalt not make thy cattle to gender with beasts of any other kind. Thou shalt not sow thy field with different seeds. Thou shalt not wear a garment that is woven of two sorts.

Darby Bible Translation
My statutes shall ye observe. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with another sort; thou shalt not sow thy field with seed of two sorts; and a garment woven of two materials shall not come upon thee.

ERJW

Yea you can be against all of those things (contraception, homosexuality, etc), but it’s the pushing it onto other people that’s the problem. It’s the issue of standing in the way of bills that support everyone’s right to make their own choices regarding these issues. It’s also about taking advantage of people in countries where populations are not well educated enough to look at your religion critically. They end up having way more children then they can afford and people die as a result- no one points out to them that most educated catholics in developed nations actually do use birth control because they know it’s better for their family and country.

Robert Barr

Amen clare. May GOD bless you !!!!

http://www.monster-island.net/ kushibo

When I was an undergrad (I’m a grad student now), I noticed that a large portion of the straight people I knew who accepted gays were Christians, while a large portion of those who were homophobic were not.

Homophobia and Christianity are not more equivalent than wine-drinking and Catholics.

Gid

Because taking a ” stand against homosexuality” is a shitty, bigoted, asshat thing to do no matter who else is doing it. I’ll give anyone else doing it just as much shit as I give your homophobic, narrow minded ass about it. You’re not picked on for being a homophobic, asshole, bigoted christian, you’re being picked on for being a homophobic, narrow minded asshole.

Hope that clears it up.

shara70

Not all atheists think abortion is a positive thing.

Betty

Nobody In their right mind believes abortion is a positive thing. just because I am pro-choice does not mean Im pro abortion! Pro choicers are more pro life than the so-called “pro lifers” are! Please, stop the lies and misinformation!

Mary Ann Johnston

I don’t claim any specific denomination, just my faith as a Christian believe. However, currently I go to a Southern Baptist church, and many of those beliefs mirror Catholic beliefs. We get just a much harassment. That’s why we are called the Bible Belt. I think some just can’t stand the fact that we have found things to believe in with a specific faith and moral guideline so they make digs at every opportunity. None of it matters to me because I know where I stand with God, which is the only One I aim to please.

In your Face

Not true, not true. I was abused by nuns in my Private school and everybody in my school and in my brother’s and sisters’ schools was physically and of course mentally abused (that’s the religion teaching- Psychological abuse). Stop repeating lies. Catholic Religion is based on abuse! specially against children and women. The point is: they use god as a reason for their abuse, That’s what Catholic teachings are: Nonsense.

John Stein

So is your Statism.

Betty

I worship statistics!

Plain sight

A Catholic quoting “studies” is like… erm… the Church quoting its own scientists I guess. Copernicus would understand.

James Aarts

Actually no this is not true, for every priest in america that abuses a child 150 normal people work in the educational sector abuse children. I base my religion on the good Faith and Values that the good Priests show not the evil side, I do condemn abusive priests and they should be dealt with under the right authorities. But please dont base your thoughts on the bad a society had done but the good, Jesus established the Catholic Church take it up with him, for he is ONLY GOD!

Talbolt Johnson

Jesus never established the Catholic church… smh ._.

James Aarts

you will find out when you meet Jesus himself, St Peter is the rock and on this rock I will build my church St.Peter is the first Pope of the Catholic Church.

Semi Sane Person

“But please don’t base your thoughts on the bad a society had done but the good…”

Why shouldn’t we base our thoughts on both? That’s like saying that if a suicide cult spent half of its time donating to local charities and helping out their fellow man, and the other half of their time molesting children and forcing its followers into ritual suicide that we shouldn’t judge that cult for the negative aspects. Under your interpretation on how we should base our thoughts, such an organization would have a shining reputation.

Also, Jesus had nothing to do with establishing the Catholic Church. What are you smoking?

James Aarts

Ignorance profound!

James Aarts

Then you tell me what Church did Jesus establish?, because the bible is not a church.

Betty

NONE

Kenneth Vaughan

Your initial statistic verifies my claim/

GUS

im catholic and not practicing, i believe myself more of a christian than anything, however if you think that abused children only exist in a catholic church and are not as prevalent in any other religion you are sadly mistaken, the only reason it is in the light in the catholic church is because they got caught! sick people are sick people and it is not tied to any specific sect! for you to say what you said would lend one to believe that bigotry is more common in Christianity than any other establishment! so choose your words wisely before making an accusation about a group of people as a whole!

Kenneth Vaughan

Did you reply to the wrong person? I did’nt make any such claims.

nick

kenneth did u not read evryy comment leading up to this 1 bassically everyone is telling everyone else to grow up and stop taking shit so serious how about u do the same ty:)

Kenneth Vaughan

Several people were taking their erroneous attacks on the Catholic church and Christians seriously, I was responding with facts, because I believe in the value of truth. By the way, did you lecture people opposing religious institutions on taking things seriously too?

Mason

perhaps it’s because of the fact that the Catholic Church is responsible for more death and destruction than almost any empire in history, and yet maintains (to a degree) this sense of holy righteousness when it comes to others and what they choose to do with their lives, even going so far as to try and keep them from living the way they wish, and then to see them so carelessly devour the innocence of children like a happy meal, to have no charges filed, and nothing that bad happen to the culprit other than relocation, really sullies the name of the House of God, when those maintaining the house have caused so much pain and misery throughout the world, yes I have Catholic friends too, but if you Choose to be part of this group of followers, so the crimes in history committed by those in your Church will at times be flung in your face because you willfully represent it. I thought it was “turn the other cheek” it’s really amazing how few “Christians” follow the actual teachings that they are given. and yes, i DO feel unique AND special, thanks

Kenneth Vaughan

I’m not a Catholic as I mentioned earlier, I do not know why you are addressing me as if I am. I am a non-denominational Christian. I disagree with several of the sins committed by the Catholic institution which you randomly brought up, and I never defended. I am merely correcting misconceptions about the Catholic church (despite my disagreeing with the church on several issues), so do not treat me like I have some vested interest in the institution as a whole just because I think facts are important.

Now according to your response, it seems like you think these falsehoods being spread are ok because of sins committed in the name of Catholicism. Should we apply this to all groups? China and North Korea are officially state-atheist regimes. So was the former Soviet Union, and several regimes under it’s sphere of influences. Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and other religious adherents were slaughtered by the millions because the law required every citizen to be an atheist. The 20th century was the bloodiest century in human history, and the state-atheist communist regimes are largely responsible for that. Now, does that mean it is ok to spread falsehoods about atheism, or judge all atheists for this? I would not dream of it.

I believe whole heartedly in turning the other cheek. I am not personally attacking anyone here, I am merely bringing truth into a discussion full of lies. Loving knowing and truth is also essential for us Christians. I dearly love each and every one of you.

Betty

the despicable thing is how catholics try to cover it up and do not fire or otherwise sanction the guilty parties involved. its not that it happens more in religious groups (although i dont know about that) but how the church deals with it that truly matters. I guarantee if a child is sexually assaulted in a public school that teacher would be fired and jailed. where are all the jailed priests???

Kenneth Vaughan

There are probably more than you think, but I in no way defended the coverups that happened. I am a non-denominational Christian, and disagree with a lot that the Catholic church has done and teaches. Just because I am presenting a truth that is not as ugly as people want it to be, does not mean I have a vested interest in the institution as a whole.

Smashbrother

Yea, but those other institutions aren’t preaching higher moral values. They also don’t try to cover it up.

Kenneth Vaughan

I never defended coverups, and none of this is related to my point.

Smashbrother

It is. The Catholic church (and organized religion in general) preach moral values, but then cover up any wrong doings when it occurs (which is hypocritical).

Schools, on the other hand are simply just a place to learn some facts.

Dandy

The difference being that when a child is abused in one of those “other” places, there is no man with a collar to protect the pedophile and ship him off to another locale to evade justice.

Kenneth Vaughan

Actually there have been several cases of teachers abusing children, and it being very difficult to fire them due to institutional structures, particularly in union states. This is often referred to as “the blob”.

It’s worth noting this wasn’t my point, and there is no relevant issue of “difference”. People were overstating the occurrence of abuse in the Catholic church, and I refuted this with facts.

I am not a Catholic, I am a non-denominational Christian who disagrees with a lot of Catholic teachings and condemns a lot of what they have done throughout history. I do not have a vested interest in the institution as a whole, like many are behaving like I do.

Heidi Mandato

Um where is your facts backing up that more kids are likely to be abused in a Catholic establish. Opinions aren’t facts. These jokes being made here are in harmless good fun. It opens lines of communication and understanding. No one was being malicious…that is until the person like you stating incorrect facts coming in being all serious face.-sigh-

Kenneth Vaughan

My facts come from studies cited in peer reviewed academic journals. Where are you facts backing up that I’m wrong? Are you demanding facts from people who disagree with me?

jd32

the difference is that if a kid gets rapped in a daycare or school the person who did it go’s to jail…your catholic priests don’t..

Kenneth Vaughan

No issue of difference here. I was only arguing about the prevalence of abuse, I made no defense of the lack of justice for victims, your point is irrelevant to mine.

However in the public school system, in certain states, there have been cases where teachers guilty of abuse have been able to fight justice due to institutional structures. This is mostly common in union states. Look up “the blob” in regards to the education system in union states.

MoriyaMug

You support and endorse an institution that systematically covers up child abuse and protects the offenders. This is not wild speculation; it is fact. It’s no less criminal than actually messing with the kids. Legally, it’s called being an accessory after the fact (and/or aiding and abetting, depending on the individual instance).

And I’ll point out the flaws in any institution, religious or otherwise. It’s not my fault that the Vatican is so corrupt. Fundamentalist Protestants, Zionist Jews and fundie Muslims are no less contemptible, but they do, if nothing else, have the lack of a worldwide criminal organization at their head, much less one that hands down edicts that harm millions of people,

Kenneth Vaughan

Are you replying to the wrong person? You start off by accusing me of supporting and endorsing the Catholic church. I started off my statement by saying I’m a non-denominational Christian who disagrees with several things about the Catholic church.

I never addressed the issue of cover ups, and would never condone the cover ups. I have no idea why you brought this up.

In case it wasn’t clear, my ONLY point, is that the Catholic church is the butt of jokes about abuse, while abuse is far more rampant in secular institutions, which doesn’t receive this kind of verbal abuse.

I would disagree with your disparaging of other religious institutions, just like North Korea and China do today in the name of state-atheism, which has lead to mass slaughter (you left out atheism, so I thought I’d give them a “you-style” shout out).

MoriyaMug

I was going to reply seriously until I read the last paragraph. You’re either trolling or an imbecile.

Kenneth Vaughan

I’m a Christian, and disagree with a lot of Catholic teachings, but
studies show that kids are no more likely to be abused in an Catholic
establishment, than in any other establishment that works with kids.
Some school districts are 10 times higher. Do you make jokes about all
of these other institutions, or does making jokes at a high population
religious group make you feel unique?

pero

and your mother too…

Rikian319

o_o Oh goodness. I didn’t expect that.

Fluorescent Grey

pedophiles before they molest a child

Debbie Edwards

Hey genius …. all pedophiles are human but most pedophiles aren’t Catholic ….duh

John

I would put a large some of money that at least 1/7 of pedophiles would say that they are either christian/catholic. That is approximately the percentage of people on this planet that claim to be catholic. Where did you get that fact that most people that are pedophiles aren’t catholic?
You probably don’t think divorce happens much within the church either LOL
One other fun fact…most people in the church that have out of wed lock sex that leads to an out of wed lock child, just get married before the kid comes along so it looks all hunky dory to the church. Birth control is a much more responsible choice than rushing into a marriage so the church thinks you’re ok still.

Kenneth Vaughan

I’m a Christian, and disagree with a lot of Catholic teachings, but
studies show that kids are no more likely to be abused in an Catholic
establishment, than in any other establishment that works with kids.
Some school districts are 10 times higher. Do you make jokes about all
of these other institutions, or does making jokes at a high population
religious group make you feel unique/shocking?

Susan G

It isn’t just that there are pedophiles in the Catholic church. I know there are pedophiles in all sectors of the public. However, scoutmasters and daycare workers, or even pentacostal ministers, don’t have the protection of the Catholic church. For decades, “the church” has been covering up the abuse, and moving around perpetrators. Of course people mock the Catholic church for this particular offense; if you’re going to condone something socially abhorrent, then you’re going to get picked on for it. If you’re sheltering a child rapist, and move them to a new area where they have access to “fresh meat”, then you obviously condone the creep’s behavior. (obviously, I use “you” in the general sense, not you specifically).

John Stein

Do you know who Jimmy Savile was? Who did he have the protection of? Your religion of atheism protects the worst of pedophiles, but you mindless repeat the discriminatory party line against a certain targeted religion.

Bruce Heerssen

Savile was a Roman Catholic, who became very rich via his media enterprises, and became influential via his philanthropic efforts. He rubbed shoulders with the likes of Margaret Thatcher and Prince Charles. After his death, he was also implicated in 34 rapes, and hundreds or sexual abuse accusations.

The fact that these allegations did not surface until after his death is a testament to his power as a public figure.

I fail to see how this ties into atheism in any way. Also, atheism is exactly like religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Souris

I was with you until you went all “Your religion of atheism” B.S.

Michael Flaherty

catholics

Debbie Edwards

Hey genius …. all pedophiles are human ….some of which are Catholic, unfortunately

Betty

The catholic priest in my hometown was an alcoholic and everyone knew it. He even drank before services. when I would go to services with my catholic friends, when we did the shaking of hands at the end, he absolutely wreaked of booze. no judgment here, Im just sayin, there are def catholics who drink MUCH more than a “sip”

Ember1

Pagans get cakes AND ale… Good libations….

Cargirl05

And sex is considered a good and natural thing in pagandom, not a “sin”, or something to only be done in marriage for the reason of procreation.

Robert Barr

sex was a wonderfull gift for husband and wife. Not for a meaningless life of one night stands and orgies. That kind of logic is exactly the reason that there is so many sexual diseases and teen pregnancies.

Brandon D.

Actually no, sex used to be a group thing when there was small communities and tribes. Monogamy was used as lover of one ‘group’ not one person. Teen pregnancy is something we see now, but 100 years ago the average girl getting pregnant and ‘married’ was young teens girls so.. your argument is kinda silly

Craig

Can I get a citation on that? Seriously. I haven’t heard that argument before and I want to check it out

Craig Wants Citations

no citation needed. Utilize your basic net surfing skills. its common knowledge (or should be to those with half a brain).

Jason Scholefield

Cause everything on the internet is true.

J Gentile

That statement is so old…Really? I think what he meant was Research on The Internet! Thats what most people do… There is a huge difference in Learning something you decide to accept as truth and Being told something that you automatically believe …

BarbaraT

Boy, my son would agree with you wholeheartedly. He’s a PhD & insists on research. If I post something from just one internet source, he lets me have it… in public no less. So I try to always have at least 2 resources.

JamesinOhio

I’m a french model….

Betty

Im pretty sure he was responding to brandons comment about sex being only for a married couple,not recreation.

BarbaraT

Well, I’ve never heard of that either.

VG Lovecraft

Has your son ever heard of the Amish? People in Amish communities tend to marry young. I’ve mentioned the polyamorous lifestyle above (which definitely is *not* acceptable to the Amish, of course).

SillyMe99

They also get cheated on molest children rape children abuse them they stay married to one person but how many did they rape first? Not to mention most of the time the rapeings abuse molestation’s don’t get handled by Judicial but their community…so lets not look to the Amish for every bit of guidance there are mistakes in every bunch. Just saying! Where there are things banned you can count on a few to break the rule.!~

ken

and you know this how………. lemme guess you’re amish… wait no your auntie’s amish? get your head out of your ass you pathetic twat! Rape, molestation, adultery, murder and robbery, yes I’m aware you didn’t mention anything about murder or robbery so before you crucify me i just wanted to point that out, are crimes that are least likely to be committed with in the amish community, simply because the communities are small, stick very close together, and have an honor system almost close to the japanese, they look upon honor with high regard, and anyone who brings dishonor to their community, family, friends, is banished from that community, and furthermore they cannot “transfer” to another amish community. once they have committed a crime or brought about dishonor, they must try to survive in the whiteman’s world, if they don’t, thats there problem, but they will never be accepted back.

VG Lovecraft

How about American colonial times. No, I’m not saying the colonists weren’t monogamous. I’m saying that people got married and pregnant in their teens. As far as the “group” aspect, see my comment to J Gentile above. There are a couple of citations, no internet access required.

J Gentile

Why is it? People argue with these ridiculous statements when its convenient! Yeah the Romans sexed young boys and Ole West hung and shot you for stealing a cup of water! Clearly that wouldn’t work out in THIS CENTURY! So why should the thinking? So that makes your argument kinda silly…

VG Lovecraft

Obviously you haven’t heard about the “polyamorous” lifestyle. There are people today who have relationships with multiple partners, and all live together. Some Pagans choose to do this, but I am not one of them. I am blissfully single, and not in a relationship at all.

Thomas Zink

They were married young (early teens) but were not getting pregnant. 100+ years ago the average age of first menstruation was 17 not 13 like today. But you were close.

Britt

Because accidental pregnancies, abortions and STD’s don’t occur in marriages and also occur in committed non-married couples? No. You do not “win” this one.

Samuel Marano Jr

If my wife got pregnant tomorrow it’d be an accident. You could wait till marriage to have sex with your partner and next thing you know, TADA!! “Oh yea, I forgot to tell you that I got herpes. My bad.” Terrible logic you have there

VG Lovecraft

I guess this means husbands never cheat on their wives, and later come back to bed with them after contracting an STD in your reality, Samuel.

Viola

Right, VG lovecraft, it’s only husbands cheating on wives and not the other way around. Hahahaha

VG Lovecraft

Well, Viola, to be fair, wives can do the same thing. I just figured it was a given that “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” (or, actually “bad”, in this scenario, of course).

Ladyface

He didn’t say it wasn’t.

Sarah

In his defense, he said TEEN pregnancies not accidental ones (some teens plan to get pregnant.) And a spouse cheating on a spouse probably did so with a one night stand (or a one night stand that maybe turned into something more if the affair goes longer). Not that I agree with his comment, but just playing Devil’s advocate here.

purplepinto

How do you suppose that herpes was contracted in the first place?

GalleryNinja

FUN FACT: Herpes can be acquired at birth, or any other time, from one’s parents and/or playmates. It can be transmitted from the originator when the virus comes in contact with the mucous membranes of another person (think: mouth, nose, eyes, genitals). So diaper-changing, food-sharing, kissing, general spitting, and spit-cleaning of one’s face (you know, like moms do it worldwide) can transmit herpes.

SillyMe99

Lets not forget fingers…Herpes Zoster to be exact and kissing someone with a cold sore you are kissing someone with herpes. LOL people make no sense thank you for being the one to correct it…if you are going to preach medical at least know what you are preaching…Gallery Ninja does as can HIV AIDS and Hepatitis…just saying LOL

beneaththenoise

Hey there genius, I thought you might like to know, herpes zoster is chicken pox, it’s not the same thing as cold sore/genital herpes..

Yeah, it’s not JUST a sexually transmitted disease. It’s like the little known fact that not only fags and junkies have AIDS and not only tattooed people and junkies have hepatitis C. Just because one group is more susceptible to a disease it doesn’t mean they are the only ones to get it.

Victoria L. Baxter-Caballero

The fact that these diseases can possibly be transmitted in other ways, is true. However, it is common knowledge that they are transmitted at a more alarming rate through sexual contact. Were it only gay people and tattooed people who had AIDS and Hep. C, the diseases would not have gotten as much publicity. These ailments have an effect on society as a hole. Anyone claiming they are only caught by folks who live a “counter cultural” life style, is sorely misinformed/under educated… (for the record, I am not implying that you are under educated, but agreeing w/ what you have said here.)

hardwroc

As an example, there was a hooker, that worked a hwy near my former home town, hitchhiking and turning tricks. She was arrested over 4 times, and tested positive for HIV the first time. This could explain how AIDS found its way into the hetero community. This to me, amounts to attempted murder or something of the sort, to deliberately continue having sex with multiple strangers per day, knowingly infected with HIV.

purplepinto

Don’t confuse susceptibility with likelihood. Risk factors and risky behavior play a HUGE part in the contraction of these diseases.

breezy512

Fun Fact: Chicken pox is herpes, and 95% of the parents I’ve ever known including my own have tried to “get their kids to catch it” Thank God I was immune…. really people!

kotoroshinoto

fun fact, its a herpes type virus, but not the same virus as the STD, please get an education

purplepinto

Genital herpes? No, those are not fun ‘Facts’ you are spewing. The only remotely accurate statement is that the mother CAN pass it to the child if the OB/Gyn isn’t careful about the delivery. The mother with HSV-1 is often given a suppressant, but C-Section is also highly advisable.

I was referring to herpes in general, not genital herpes *specifically*, AND you just confirmed what I wrote when you said that it’s possible to contract herpes from a mother. My statement stands as accurate.

Blake Howard

another fun fact about herpes: Studies show that approx. 98% of people actually carry some form of the herpes virus. Genital herpes formed from other forms of herpes. such as fever blisters which is also herpes.

GaMomToBe

You can get herpes outside of sex…very rare mind you, but possible. From infected mother passing during birth. You can actually get it from kissing…if both of you have breaks in the skin (and one person has herpes of course).

Pete

I think you misread what Britt said…

ken

but surely the promiscuity of the individuals does not help either? plus theoretically if you and your partner are virgins when you meet and end up being together when you both die there are no stds, save for the children…xD

Ladyface

…unless you contract them from a needle, blood transfusion, or any of the plethora of other ways one can contract an STD without sexual contact.

ken

tousche friend. lol

Pete

This is an interesting statement… Are children STDs or Parasites?

ken

both! haha. they are a parasitic std. they leech the life from your hapless body and drain your money. and they only come about after sex

JOsh

How can you accidentally abort your child? That sounds not only painful but terrible as well.

VG Lovecraft

Actually, if the woman falls, gets into some sort of accident or whatever, the fetus can “spontaneously abort”. And yeah, I’m sure it wouldn’t be an enjoyable thing to endure.

KeepCalm

Accidental pregnancies don’t happen in marriages?? What planet do you live on, that is the dumbest shit ever… And abortions don’t either. For some woman in certain circumstances having a child can put their life in danger. Also if you have a history of genetic disabilities, try tell that to the parents who are about to raise there 3rd kid with downs or autism. And see if they have the strength to go through it again.

Blue

Well actually when accidental pregnancies, abortions, and stds are present in a marriage it’s usually because someone is cheering, and that too is frowned at.. Js

Blue

Cheating -_- my mistake

Bill

You are right Britt. Accidental pregnancies, abortions and Std do happen in marriage.
It’s sad that abortions happen, in fact I wish they never happened at all.
But, if 2 people had saved themselves for marriage, and only slept with their husband or wife, the chances of having or contracting an STD are slim to non minus the possibility of being born with one, or perhaps taking drugs and getting something like aids (Which is not only passed through sex but sometimes through other sources.) So, in all reality no stds would occur in a truly committed Christian relationship that “lived and abided in the ways in which Christ taught…”

Pregnancies… Well those will sneak up on anybody. But if two people are married and truly care for one another in a totally non selfish way, they can figure out how to raise a baby together even if it is a beautiful little accident.

Jessi

So someone who contracts AIDS through a tainted blood transfusion isn’t in a “truly committed Christian relationship”?!

Robert Barr Sucks Dick

please shut the fuck up! Im asking about as nicely as I can, when you say stupid self-righteous shit like that… moron!

BarbaraT

such an intellectual statement. Pot calling the kettle black.

Robert Barr

You are obviously a person of very limited intelligence since you obviously have no other way to express your opinion other than being vulgar ! You are very immature !!!!!

jadekitty

Best sex of my life has been with my Christian (quite religious) boyfriend. And I’m not Christian.

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

You know, there IS something between those two poles (although I am not knocking either if you are happy and not hurting others).

Actually, humans being the multi-faceted creatures they are, there are a myriad of options for a happy and healthy sexual life. Or no sexual life!

The reason there are “so many” sexual diseases and teen pregnancies is that people like you make it shameful and difficult for some women to protect themselves. Real education and no shaming, along with accessible protection/prevention is rather more helpful.

BarbaraT

Its not just up to the woman. I warned all 3 of my sons about women. And to ALWAYS use condoms. And yep, my oldest is (“opps!”) married to a woman he never intended to marry. But I am proud he manned up and accepted his responsibility.

VG Lovecraft

For the record, I am proud of your son as well. Although, I’m not sure what you mean by “warning” him about women. Sex is a mutually agreed upon activity, except for cases of rape and abuse.

BarbaraT

She told him she was on birth control but in fact was not. My other two sons planned & had their children when they were ready as a mutual agreement. And learned from their older brother.

Viola

And now you are happy that your son is married to a liar? Wow, he’s probably miserable. You’re a bad mother for wanting your son to marry a manipulative liar. We only have one shot at life, we should be with people who treat us with respect. You, obviously, have no respect for your son.

BarbaraT

You have no clue what I am. I’m proud he manned up to take care of his son fully. I have no use for her & personally would’ve been just as happy had he not married her. But it was his choice on the marriage part, What I told my sons were they had the benefit of loving parents & I expected the same for their children. He’s made the best of a bad situation and the children (add 1 daughter) never suffered, I have more respect for all 3 sons in my little finger than I do for people that don’t care for their children. So don’t call somebody a bad mother unless you know what’s meant by me saying I’m proud of him.

Ladyface

Babies having babies. Sad. Let’s count our blessings, Viola.

BarbaraT

He wasn’t a baby. Never said how old he was. I can’t tell him what he can or can’t do about his marriage. But he did turn out to be a good husband & great dad.

AmericanWoman

So he made a mistake and as a result decides to ruin his entire life by marrying someone he doesn’t love? Perhaps this is the reason why people cheat and are never happy in their relationships.

Why couldn’t he “manned up” by simply being a father and providing the financial responsibility needed to ensure his child has what he needs. My mother and father separated but maintained a sane relationship between them. I never got to see them fight or make each others life a living hell. He got married to a woman he loves has two children who I get along with well and my mother is also married with a man I love and respect because he cares so much for my mother.

I feel that if you make one mistake, that should not be reason why you should throw your entire life away. Make a mistake, fix it and move on with your life so you can achieve happiness in life as much as possible. You only get but one chance to live life! That’s of course my personal opinion as a daughter to two parents who were not meant to be married and two parents who were able to move on, be responsible, and still be happy. I still have access to both parents and a great extended family!

BarbaraT

They don’t fight and when they argue its private. Same as with my parents & my husband and me. She would not have been very good about not using the child as leverage if he had not married her. And now he has grown to love her to a degree. All I was saying is I didn’t want them dependent on the girl for contraception. Use a condom anyway.

Ladyface

How do you know they don’t fight and their kids don’t hear arguing? Do you live with them and monitor their private lives? I got news for you: the kids know. I ALWAYS knew. Parents are so STUPID about that. They think they can hide it. What a JOKE. “Grown to love her to a degree.” …wow. So glad I’m not in that family.

Ladyface

Why doesn’t everyone think getting married for a child is a good thing? ugh! Kids KNOW. It screws them up more than having 2 happy, separate parents.

Lance

complete ignorance… I was a child, and I know for a fact that if my mother had stayed with my father, I wouldn’t have been near as happy as I was. Don’t act like you know what’s best for people outside of your shoes.
How ignorant is it to assume that a child would be happier seeing two people hate each other for their entire child hood, over seeing two happy separate parents who can now put their energy into loving their child instead of fighting their spouse?

BarbaraT

They never hated each other and seems your attack on me should be directed to yourself & all these poor pitiful people who think because they were screwed up because of their parents, that everybody is. I’m far from ignorant. If you had read everything you’d see where I said it was his choice to marry. I sure as hell would not touch that decision. I just can’t stand dead beat dads (and moms) who don’t care for their children.

Lance

Barbarra… I didn’t reply to you.

BarbaraT

I’m sorry. This conversation was over 20 days ago. I apologize if I’ve offended you.

BarbaraT

I don’t understand. Did I inadvertently say something to you. If I did, I apologize for my err. Good evening.

BarbaraT

Maybe it screwed you up, but the kids are doing great. They had a wonderful childhood full of living a growing into terrific young adults/ Its NOT always best to marry for a child’s sake. His is the exception I guess.

purplepinto

Shameful and difficult? Get real. That is a fallacy.

VG Lovecraft

Obviously, you know nothing of Catholicism. No, I’m not bashing Catholics, and there are a myriad of religious traditions that make sex a shameful activity. Just providing one example.

Adam Sumner

You actually said that it was “shameful and difficult for some women to protect themselves” not that sex itself was shameful to Catholics. Anyway, I would have to disagree with both points. Sex is not regarded as shameful to Catholics but as sacred and as such it must be respected. They say the way of doing so is to restrict sex to the creation of life – which after all is its actual purpose (regardless of its many other benefits and pleasures). The also respect the product of sex – life – by requiring it to occur in the context of a family. This ensures the person created from the sex act is nurtured and protected.
Now, I am not saying I agree with this philosophy entirely (no, I’m not Catholic) but far from treating sex as shameful it elevates sex to something beautiful, natural, and to be respected as an incredibly important part of life and nature.

Queer

oh catholics absolutely believe sex is an important part of life and nature thats nothing to be ashamed of . . . Unless you are a member of the LGBT community.

Adam Sumner

Well that is understandable. The Bible is quite clear about homosexuality. I don’t know why you would want anything to do with any christian religion if you are gay. You can’t argue with them following the scripture on which they base their religion.

Ladyface

The Bible was quite clear on a lot of things until it got edited/translated/re-worded about 90 times throughout history to reflect the ideas of the religious leaders/kings of the time.

http://blogvader.tumblr.com/ Blogvader

I guess, if you overlook the glaring fact that Christ himself didn’t have anything to say about it.

At all.

VG Lovecraft

Actually, Maggie brought up the “shameful to protect” point, but I understand your points, and understand them, as my brother-in-law and his side of the family are Catholic.

cat13

It is most certainly shameful and difficult for someone to have sex outside of marriage because of Christianity. If an 18 year old girl tells her Catholic mother, or better yet any church official, she is considering having sex with her boyfriend and is considering birth control of any sort what would happen?

Sex in an context but vaginal intercourse between a married couple is treated with shame, or very little to no information. Even masturbation is treated as terrible.

In confession when I was about 11, I was told by a priest I was going to hell for confessing that I masturbated. It took a lot of courage to say it in the first place, I thought I was doing good, but I wasn’t offered a path to salvation, I wasn’t offered a decent penance, I was told I was bad and would go to hell..

I was taught in Catholic school, 7th grade, that every time a boy masturbates he is essentially aborting a million babies.. However many sperm are released in an ejaculation. I was coerced by that same teacher to make a chastity oath… At 12 years old! In high school we were treated to a lovely seminar in which we were told about how terrible sex is, how it almost always leads to STDs and how a girl who has pre-marital sex is so disgusting you shouldn’t want to have sex with that type of girl anyway. Were told to think about the girl we want to have sex with.. Think that she will marry someone some day.. think that if we were that guy we would have to live with the fact that our wife had sex with someone else, and how gross that was. Not to think about it as a mature adult, but as a teenager and how even having strong sexual desires makes girls sluts, disgusting, and undesirable.. Not once told to think about what the same feelings and acts made us, the boys.. It was terrible.
My girlfriend of maybe 4 years at the time, the only person I’ve ever had sex with besides my wife, was given a similar seminar at her school and was utterly convinced she was going to hell for the sex we had already had.. It took her a long time to come to grips with that.

My mom, a grade A student, and model teenager in every way except for getting pregnant with me her senior year of high school was disowned and thrown out of her home by her Catholic parents.

This are just the first things that come to mind. How is this not an institution of shame and fear when it comes to sex.. Sexuality is treated with utmost shame.. Though we are told it is “beautiful” but ONLY between a married couple.. And only with the potential for procreation.. So married people, don’t masturbate, don’t use a condom, don’t use birth control, don’t even “pull out,” These are all against god’s wishes. It was very, very smart of early Christians to make both spreading the word and procreation necessities of their religion.. It assures more and more new members and helped it grow into what it is today…

Ladyface

I am very sorry you had to go through that. No one should have to. Your mother as well. Parents should support their children no. matter. what.

The Catholic religion is very different from many of the other “Christian” faiths…I grew up Lutheran and they encourage recreational sex and the use of birth control when married. Catholicism sounds like prison in comparison.

rdm80

Catholics do not make sex a shameful activity. Quite the opposite. Sex is not only for the procreation of children, it’s the glue that holds the marriage together. If you and your partner are sharing a blessing from God which you have shared with no other person, it will go a long way toward preserving the marriage.

cat13

It is my understanding that it is the teaching of the Catholic church, as a former Catholic, that all sex acts must potentially lead to pregnancy. That is why birth control is forbidden, even for a married couple, even for a married couple with several children who want no more, or none in the first place. And Catholics make sex very, very shameful, except in one single context, between a married man and woman. And any sex act except vaginal penetration, even between a married couple is either forbidden, frowned upon, or not talked about, including masturbation. How does Catholicism not cast shame on sex between a committed mature unmarried couple? I was a former Catholic, now athiest and have had sex with two people in my life, one is my wife, the other way my girlfriend for 6 years. Never had a pregnancy “scare,” no STDs… If I followed strict Catholic law my life would be no better and I would not be any better of a person. If I did what most young people forced into the conservative religions of their parents usually do I would have been in trouble.. This includes eventually giving in to strong physical urges with little guidance on what to do about it, except “don’t act on it, and also don’t use condoms or birth control.” What happens then to many, many religious teens is they eventually give into their urges and somehow justify that to themselves but out of shame, fear, and a desire to still fulfill their religious obligations forgo other things they think are wrong giving them a few good Christian points, or things they haven’t been able to discuss with adults, and long story short… They have sex, but they do not use condoms or birth control and with little guidance about responsible sex practices have sex with many partners. This leads to many problems. There is no way to stop teens from having sex, there is no way to stop pre-marital sex. There are people who wait until marriage, and that is their choice (hopefully) but it is naive and harmful to assume any single person definitely will. I’m sure sex between two virgins on their wedding night could be a beautiful thing. I personally tend to think it is more likely to be an awkward, and potentially disappointing for one or both partners. But sex isn’t any less powerful between a married couple that has had a sex partner prior to their marriage if they really love each other. What about someone who waits until marriage and then has a divorce and remarries to someone they truly love. Is the sex between that married couple less powerful or beautiful than any other couple?

Ladyface

I’ve always thought that waiting until marriage was a silly concept as one doesn’t know what their sexual identity is like until they’ve swam through the waters of sexual self-discovery. I would hate to be in a position where I wasn’t allowed to “know” my partner both sexually and physically living together until I was locked into a marriage from which eternal damnation is the only escape? What sense does that make?

purplepinto

Nonsense. This is what Maggie wrote: “The reason there are “so many” sexual diseases and teen pregnancies is that people like you make it shameful and difficult for some women to protect themselves.”
It’s a load of crap! It has nothing to do with Catholicism. She’s trying to make women the poor, afflicted, victims that have no other options available and this whole rampant sexual depravity thing is somebody else’s fault.

VG Lovecraft

I agree that the “shameful and difficult” aspect is not *exclusive* to Catholicism, and perhaps Maggie is displaying a “victim mentality” on the part of women. I can’t say for certain, as I can’t read her mind. Many women (Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, whatever) do feel they have no options because of the beliefs they were raised with. And, some priests, gurus, imams, or simply *parents* wish to convey a “shamefulness” regarding sex, or contraception, abortion, etc. So, in that sense, the “affliction” *is* someone else’s fault.

purplepinto

In America 2013? Very rare. In other countries perhaps? Sure. In fact, Islam and much of the Pacific Rim are the worst for this repressive behavior. There are Christian groups scattered across many Asian countries trying to rescue young girls from the sex trade that their PARENTS have subjected them to. It is heart breaking to hear these true life accounts of drug lord fathers subjecting their elementary school age daughters to the sex trade. Just sick! But to blame American Christians? I am not buying it, nor will I stand by silently while someone peddles it.

VG Lovecraft

Obviously, you did not read my post, because I am not blaming American Christians. Nor did I bring up the sex trade (not sure why you did, either), but just for the record, girls who get ensnared by the sex trade are often traveling abroad, and unfortunately get kidnapped by the drug dealers/sex traders, which does not require parental involvement at all.

The people that I assign blame to for the “shameful” attitude toward sexual intercourse before marriage, contraception, and abortion are not necessarily any type of Christian, Catholic or otherwise. I include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists, Confucians, Scientologists, Rastafarians, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, and *anyone else* of any religious, or anti-religious belief system.

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

I wasn’t talking about Catholicism. Shame around sex is found in a lot of places. It’s pretty much a general societal thing (if a bit better today). And women aren’t the only ones taught to think that way.

I was raised without religion, and I still absorbed a few icky things from society.

Robert Barr

sex is not shamefull but you should wait till you are mature enough to handle the emotions that come with it. Also you should take personal responsibility for your actions and not blame the lack of responsibility on others. In general if you are ashamed of something you are doing then it is because deep down you feel that it is wrong. When i choose to do something i do not feel guilty or ashamed no matter what society may say about it.

Adam Sumner

How is it “shameful and difficult” to abstain from sexual relations? How is it “shameful and” difficult for any women in any western country to ensure that they have only one sexual partner at a time? How is it “shameful and difficult” for any of the same group to ensure any partners that they have use a condom? What is it about personal responsibility and restraint that you find so distasteful or confusing?

ken

I think you are missing maggie’s point. She is not out right saying that it is shameful or difficult, she is basically saying that the society we live in is what makes it shameful and difficult. Every day I see shit on tv, billboards, facebook etc. promoting sex and sex appeal. Young adults and adolescents dress as if they are from a Porn company. I have three 13 yr olds living on my block and all three dress like they just crawled out of the gutter outside the local brothel. So you good sir, tell me how “shameful” or “difficult” it may be for girls and woman these days to respect themselves when the world we live in basically depicts woman as sex slaves for men from the time they’re a tater tot fresh out the oven. Instead of being narrow minded, try opening your eyes and see the big picture as a whole, rather than picking at a comment someone posts with a fine tooth comb looking for an excuse to make an argument. Plus, on the topic of difficulty, some people are not physically able to resist their sexual urges like others may. I am one of them. I’ve been a horny beast since I knew how to play with my dick. That’s not my responsibility. I didn’t choose to have strong sexual desires. That’s just who I am.

Viola

Anyone is physically able to resist their sexual urges, just because you don’t have the discipline to do so doesn’t mean you should assume it’s the same for other people. That’s childish thinking. I’ve had a higher sex drive than almost every single one of my boyfriends but have never cheated. Plus, if you are not able to resist your sexual urges, then surely you’ve committed multiple rapes because not everyone we are sexual attracted to is going to consent to us having sex with them…so either you’re able to control your libido, or you’re a rapist…

cat13

Do you really, honestly, truly believe that rape is committed because people with a high libido want to have sex? Do you think it has anything to do with a healthy person who just gets really, really horny and the person they want to have sex with doesn’t want to with them? That is like saying murder is for normal people who don’t like someone and just really don’t want them around any more. Rape is a horrible, terrible, violent, un-sexy act. It is about power, anger, and violence, it has nothing to do with fulfilling a strong libido. If my wife has a stressful week and we don’t have sex for a week the thought of forcing it doesn’t even begin to appear.. It isn’t “self-control” that keeps people from committing rape… Rapists and non-rapists are two different types of people.. Rapists aren’t really horny non-rapists..

Betty

“either you’re able to control your libido or you’re a rapist”??? Seriously? wow thats ridiculous. Ken was talking about having a high libido he never once mentioned that “he fu**s anything that moves” Damn, that was such an illogical response, it breaks my heart. Besides that, RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX!!!! Rapists usually don’t have normal sex-drives/libidos. LOOK it up. Ken is considered normal. Just because someone is especially horny (which many of us are, especially during certain stages of life) that does not mean they will be or are rapists! Infidelity is a whole different topic…

ken

i made no assumption that “everyone” else is the same as me, i did state that there are some like me, because i personally know a few that are like me. You are the one making assumptions, and no I’m not a rapist. I do have the discipline, don’t be making assumptions about me after calling me out on making assumptions you fucking hypocrite. you seem to just pick out the details you want and base your argument solely around the bits you find suitable. well dissect this, sometimes it’s not a matter of discipline or being physically able to control ones urges. Sometimes the person may not fully understand how, or maybe even just doesn’t know, how to control them that’s what i meant by physically not being able to, if you don’t know how then you physically can’t, you can learn which will lead you to knowing, but before you know and are able to do, you simply just can’t. for instance, when you were 5 would you be able to solve this equation AB/x=Y2 +5. probably not because you barely even know basic math as is. In this case discipline has nothing to do with it, its simply about understanding and knowing, and if you don’t understand or know then you simply don’t understand or know. lol you really need to open your eyes like adam and stop thinking with such a narrow mind. I can tell you’ve got the smarts, you just need to pull your head out of your ass wake the fuck up and use them already, think a little more out of the box, challenge yourself, maybe try think about things differently. try looking at things through a different scope/light/angle

Adam Sumner

We all make the world the way it is. Often times it is difficult to make the right choice, but the fact that it is difficult makes the wrong no more wrong and the right no more right, and we still must decide. You can make excuses and you can be correct that those influences do indeed make the right choice more difficult to arrive at, but again those choices still have to be made and we all have to live with the consequences of our actions.
I don’t agree with the church’s stance on sex, but I do think it is a logical set of rules given their scriptures. We as a society benefit from a healthy moral conscience based on rational thought rather than a suspect ancient text, and to do that each one of us must take responsibility for the health of that conscience.

ken

who are you to determine what is right and what is wrong? you may believe, or not, that sex should be reserved for after marriage, but personally I think sex is perfectly fine out of marriage. that doesn’t make either of us right or wrong. to me sex is an expression of the deepest and truest love. to me sex is almost sacred, a ritual if you will. i don’t have to be married to be in love, i need to be in love to be married. i need to be in love to have sex. but i don’t need to be married to have sex. that’s my understanding and that’s my personal view, you have yours and we all on this thread have our own. But that doesn’t mean that any of us are right or wrong, simply because its all a matter of perception. I’ve always said normal doesn’t exist, because its a matter of perception, so i feel its a good analogy here, normal doesn’t exist because what may be “normal” for one person might not necessarily be “normal” for the next. For instance in some states gay marriage, or better yet, since this is more controversial, incest, is deemed legal. now you might find either of those indecent or unacceptable or “wrong” or you may not, but some people do, while others may find them completely acceptable. still no one can fully determine whether or not either are right or wrong because once again its a matter of perception and most importantly, the individuals opinion.

Lissa

I think they are saying that it is shameful and difficult if they don’t…just saying girls should be able to talk about it so that they can get the best information possible but it makes it hard for them to talk to anyone about it when their religion is constantly bashing girls who don’t abstain.

cat13

It is not considered shameful or difficult to abstain.. The shame comes when you act on sexual desires outside of marriage. And Christians offer plenty of shame there. Do you think the Catholic religion teaches that there is no shame in premarital sex as long as you only have one partner at a time or use a condom?

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

Honey, I have had double-digits partners and I haven’t been monogamous for over 4 years now. I have never had an STI or a pregnancy. I think I’m quite on board with “personal responsibility”, thanks.

I am saying that if you’re taught that everything surrounding sex is bad (unless you’re married in a nice man-woman marriage!), you’re pretty likely to feel ashamed and have trouble navigating those waters. It is my impression that swaths of the US funds abstinence-only education, doesn’t always like to pay or give out birth control, and an abortion is getting more and more difficult to get. This stuff isn’t conducive to kids growing up healthy and safe.

ken

you are the smartest one on the thread

cat13

When I replied to your other comment I did not see this one. Though this view seems a polar opposite to your earlier one about orgies and one night stands.. Though I’m assuming the other one was made in haste and this is closer to your actual views.

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

Hm, I think I was not clear enough, everyone seems confused about that post.

1) I am all for people doing what they want, as long as they don’t hurt others. Have sex, don’t, have orgies, don’t. Whatever! It’s fine if that’s what you want.
2) I want people to have the information and resources to be able to protect themselves, and prevent pregnancies if that’s what they want. I personally have an IUD, which was easily available and inexpensive. That’s good!
3) Society (in a very general, American-society sense) often inculcates attitudes that are not conducive for 1 and 2 to occur (such as pharmacists who refuse to dispense birth control, only teaching abstinence in school, etc).

tipper3

Don’t forget the innocent starving children born of lust and not wanted by those who gave birth to them…you like sex so much be responsible, but wasn’t this thread about a tip at a restaurant?

Rob Holman

Please shut up, sex predates marriage by about 2.2 million years.

Robert Barr

NO! I have the freedom of speech just as you do. Also since there are no written records from 2.2 million years ago, how do you know what their customs were ? The scientist that you must be quoteing are only guessing !

VG Lovecraft

Wait. . . So there was no sex 2.2 million years ago? Or are you saying that Yahweh dictated his form of marriage prior to creating Adam and Eve? Yahweh himself has only been around for about 6000 years, and even his predecessors (I believe the Epic of Gilgamesh mentions a “Yahu”, from about 10,000 years ago in Mesopotamia, but I am admittedly not a religious scholar) haven’t been around for anywhere close to a million years.

Adam

That has to be the most stupid comment. Ever. Of all time. Do you really think courthouses, churches and marriages have been around since sex? Do you read your own bible?! we already know sex predates marriage, or else WE WOULDN’T BE HERE.

cat13

How do you mean? I am an atheist and am 100% alright with sex outside of marriage.. But humans have existed from anywhere between 100,000 – 200,000 years, but definitely no longer… Even if a person is a young earth creationist now you are talking on a scale less than 10,000 years. And animal species have existed and were having sex on a time scale of billions of years. So I’m just curious where 2.2 million years is coming from?

VG Lovecraft

That is what Yahweh told the tribes of Israel (the husband and wife part). Not everyone is a member of those tribes. I am Norse by heritage, so I am not of the (I forget. Is it seven? Nine?) tribes of Israel. That said, I do agree with you that one night stands, orgies, and teen pregnancy cause problems for society. My point is that sex need not include an Abrahamic marriage as a prerequisite. Just one Pagan’s opinion.

G. Rowland

Lets be clear. The early Israelites were not monogamous. The men could have as many wives as they could afford. And Abraham himself was allowed by the Jewish laws at the time to take his wife’s handmaiden Hagar to bed because his wife Sarah was barren. Then surprise, in advanced age Sarah had a son. I don’t think that qualifies as monogamy.

VG Lovecraft

Good point. And like I said in another comment above, I make to claim to being a religious scholar.

VG Lovecraft

Sorry, I meant to say that I make *no claim”, not “to claim”. . . Think I was falling asleep there!

Adam

Actually, that would be because of Christians wanting to make sex evil to have before “marriage” and making contreceptive even more evil.

BarbaraT

I’m a Christian & I’ve never thought sex was evil. Except rape, incest or using sex for anything that is self serving.

ken

i think he’s referring more the “bible thumpers” and priest, don’t be so hard on and defensive

BarbaraT

Was I being hard on him? I didn’t think so. Just stating my opinion& attitude toward sex.

Some1ellse

Sex is not the issue, the issue is people commited to instant gratification, and not caring about consequences, sex just may be their weapon of choice, and this is not dependent on your religion or lack there of.
Yes people who take part in a religion, that does not condone wanton sex, is less likely to do that, but religion as a deterrent is a double edged sword, it may help stop some bad things, but it also stops some good things.

Betty

I kinda agree w you here, but its just not possible to talk about this in generalities and be 100% on target. We are talking about individuals here, and there are always extenuating circumstances-for instance how many prostitutes have been sexually abused etc? most. how many promiscuous kids/women/men are that way because they are influenced by societal messages and or previous sexual abuse. many. (and in many cases, promiscuity in young people is related to lack of male role models/break down of families) People use sex for many different reasons. Some find comfort in it because they are lacking something in their life or are mentally unable to control themselves (to differing extents) because of past traumas that havent been dealt with etc. trauma of any kind changes the brain. Sex is not something that should be dealt with any differently than any other behavior. In some/many/most cases, I don’t believe it is a “weapon of choice” as you put it. I wholeheartedly agree with taking personal responsibility, but some people are just damaged.

Ladyface

…because promiscuity is only attributed to Pagans…

cat13

What about logic that dictates that sex is always between two people who love each other, are in a long committed relationship, and use contraceptives, but are not married. Many people have this view, this I tend to think is the standard view of many people. Could you find a person who thinks that one night stands are a great thing or that orgies are even acceptable? 99 out of 100 people, Christian or otherwise would likely tell you orgies are crazy and they no desire to ever partake in one.. and a large majority would tell you that when they have sex it is with someone they care about. Why is it so black and white to you? Why is it orgy sex fiends in one hand, and married couples in the other. Nothing in between? Really?

Screwy Louie

Any old port in a storm!

Cpalm

Sex isn’t only done for procreation in Christianity, yes, it’s meant to be within the confines of marriage, but it’s also meant to be an expression of live and connection. In marriage, two previously separate souls are joined into one, and sex is the physical representation of that connection

Keith Pittell

I noticed you spelled “love” wrong… Freud would say that’s a Freudian slip…

Ben

Surely Freud wouldn’t say that, but people after Freud might?

Betty

yup and actually, a Freudian slip is considered a slip of the tongue/misspeak only when referring to SEXUAL words/ideas. Like when a guy in the elevator told me he liked my “penetrations” instead of piercings!

Rob

Isn’t a Freudian slip when you say one thing, but mean your mother?

OmiMichelle

Oh. My Goodness. I think I died a little. So good. xD

Rich Mapes

somebody said something about peanut butter eggs….. isn’t anyone at all more interested in that…… Hope they’re covered with chocolate too……..

Tony Haenelt-Pearson

Actually, you are incorrect here, as well. The phrase “Freudian Slip” can indicate any time you say something you didn’t intend, but that indicates what you were actually thinking. The psychoanalytical idea was first introduced by Freud in his book “The Pathopsychology of Everyday Life” and he describes the phenomenon in many situations, few (if any) of which are sexual in nature. The phrase was probably coined first by another Psychoanalyst in 1941. Reading the history of the phrase, it seems obvious that the sexual connotation likely caught on by accident in probably a humorous situation where somebody accidentally said something with sexual undertones or meaning, when they intended to say something else…and somebody said it was a Freudian Slip, when that wasn’t what Freud was necessarily talking about, nor was it something he wrote about in his book. Just…an FYI.

Stef

You are amazing. Seriously! (I’m pretty sure you knew that already, but I’m still going to say it anyway.)

Keith Pittell

… It was a joke, my friend…

Betty

So was Bens response. Freud did not coin the term “Freudian Slip”. That was done by other psychoanalysts/psychologists who came around a long time after he was dead.

Keith Pittell

For Heaven’s sake, I know that. It was a freaking joke. You’re not the only person who attended college. Lighten up!!!!!!!

Betty

You are very defensive, and now you are contradicting your own statement. (which is certainly not a crime) but you could just admit you made an error instead of getting your panties in a wad and jumping down my throat. If you’re so secure in your education/intelligence why the necessity to go on the attack when someone politely calls you on an error?? My intention was not to hurt your ego, dear. Just making a point.

Keith Pittell

Do you mean to tell me that you really thought that I thought that Freud coined that term?!! Give me a break, bitch, and f**k off!!

Betty

Well I guess you just proved my point. People who KNOW they are wrong, often feel the need to use insults and derogatory terms to defend themselves, because its the only way their little brains know how to rebut a point. look back on the thread, dude. Thats exactly what you said. and I quote :”Freud would say that’s a Freudian slip…” UNQUOTE. Not that I give a shit about any of this, I was simply defending the other guy who pointed it out after YOU insulted HIS intelligence. Goodbye. Happy days to you.

Isaiah

let’s plaaaaaaaay “WHO’S GOT THE BIGGEST DICK!!!” Our two contestants Keith and Betty squaring up for the final round, and evidently they are both rip roaring and ready to fight!

Tony Haenelt-Pearson

Haha, actually, I believe Keith. When I read his comment, I certainly didn’t think that he thought Freud coined the phrase “Freudian Slip”. If I did think so and he said that he didn’t, that it was a joke, I would have no reason or evidence to conclude otherwise. Methinks Betty is a needling ass-clamp who just likes to argue for the sake of arguing. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Tony Haenelt-Pearson

Actually, it’s a logic fallacy to conclude that insults are needed by those who are wrong or are not being truthful. People who speak the truth often are defensive and insulting while so speaking. There is no objective evidence for this oft-repeated fallacy of yours, it’s usually only claimed on message boards or in comments sections where people say it, believing they are making a good point. The truth is, what a person includes in speaking the truth has no bearing on it at all. In other words, if I say, “I did SO meet Jack Black, you pencil-necked assbuckle!”…my insults don’t mean that I didn’t meet Jack Black. They simply mean that I think you are a pencil-necked ass-buckle for whatever reason. Probably because that’s what you are :). Likewise, because Keith has insulted you in this exchange, has exactly zero bearing on whether he is being truthful. Just offering my 2 cents. You’re welcome

Betty

In response to all of your responses–that may be true about the insults/truth etc. but not in THIS case (which is the only one that is relevant here) and about your other, condescending rebuttals you took such great effort at here (i dont have the time nor inclination to respond to all of them) at least Im able to admit my mistakes/errors, instead of using nasty words to defend myself. and sorry, I do not research /google every damn thing I write about on a meaningless thread before I write it. my bad. I feel horrible that Freud was only dead 2 years after the term was coined! OH I was sooooo wrong! you my dear, are a nit picker.

Tony Haenelt-Pearson

Well, you have no idea if you are correct about Keith or not, you are simply behaving as if you know, which only makes you look like not only a nit-picker, but also a needling, annoying middle-schooler. And, not only do you not know about Keith, you were also factually wrong in at least two instances where you spoke as if you were correct. That makes everything else you say here at least suspect. I bet you are just a PEACH to be around in real life. LOL!!

Stef

People who curse more tend to be more honest. Truth.

Tony Haenelt-Pearson

Actually, woops, you are wrong about this, too. The phrase first shows up in writing around 1941, according to sources. You were correct that it was first used by other psychologists. But, Freud died in 1939. Two years could hardly be considered a “long time after” in such a context.

Leeroy

Way to Leeroy Jenkins this funny thread.

Bruce Ottenberg

I don’t know, he was kind of pompous.

Ladyface

The “confines of marriage”…there’s a joke there.

Geoffrey Glover

Trust me, it’s no joke.

hardwroc

I get it, I get it.

Bruce Ottenberg

Preach!

Patti Osborne

Not according to the catholic church.

purplepinto

Sex is not a sin. Sex with anyone other than your spouse is a sin. Big difference. It is not just about procreation for Christians. There may be some religions that have that in their doctrine, but it is NOT of the Bible. Man has done some absolutely ridiculous things trying to add in his own nonsense on top of God’s Word.

Jeremy

The bible has many cases of sex outside marriage most notably being Abraham having sex with his wife’s slave. There’ also instances where women could be taken from a city that the Israelite sacked. Bible isnt so constant on the no sex outside of Marriage stuff. Not very constant on Monogamy either

purplepinto

God chooses humans for His work. Humans do things they ought not to do. David lusted after and eventually slept with Bathsheba. If that weren’t bad enough, David killed her then husband.
Sarah, Abraham’s wife, convinced him to sleep with Hagar, her servant after not being able to bear him children for many years. This was not under God’s direction.

Eve

How is it that again an again, a conversation about Christianity becomes a conversation about SEX. It makes the impression that NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD is more preoccupied with SEX than Christians! Hey, Christians! There are other things in the world as well!

purplepinto

Perhaps you ought to look through this long, ridiculous thread and re-examine who took it there in the first place. The Christians in this thread have been on the defensive about the topic of sex since this person started it:
Place the blame where it belongs. -_-

Cargirl05 to Ember1

• 3 days ago •

And sex is considered a good and natural thing in pagandom, not a “sin”, or something to only be done in marriage for the reason of procreation.

G. Rowland

There are also those that believe King David(before he was king) was in a love relationship with Jonathan the previous king’s son. Bathsheba came much much later

purplepinto

There are certainly those who read that into an otherwise described kinship between David and Jonathan. It serves their own purpose to ‘see’ what may not be there.

MagmarFire

You’re presupposing in the latter example that it was inherently against God’s direction, too. Nowhere in the narrative was it stated that having a surrogate had a negative connotation to it aside from Hagar growing furious with Sarai when she found out she was pregnant. (However, it’s obvious that cultural context needs to be applied to this part, as Hagar’s anger seems really random when taken at face value after ignoring any pre-existing bias against extramarital intercourse.)

It really was not uncommon for extramarital relations to exist back in those days, as marriage was much more akin to a property license than today’s version. This is why you see so many verses suggesting financial compensation as a response to adultery and why it makes very little sense in Western culture today.

purplepinto

You might want to read through that again. The anger came from Sarah (Sarai). It was jealousy at the thought of her maid having conceived her husband’s child after years of being barren. God had promised Abraham a son, and in Sarah’s impatience, she convinced Abraham to take her maid servant. Sarah treated Hagar poorly and Hagar fled, only to return after an encounter with an angel of the Lord at a well.
I’m no presupposing anything. It was not under God’s direction for Abraham to seek a concubine for the mother of his child. It was Sarah’s doing and it caused strife.
In reading the study notes as well as the historical background around each time frame, we often get a much broader understanding of what/why from the verses. But the key to remember is that God didn’t interfere in man’s free will. He allowed them to seek their own path, whether they obeyed Him or strayed. Many of the stories will give us examples of the strife we cause when we are disobedient, of the blessings received at heeding His word, and the blessings lost when we are rebellious.

MagmarFire

I did, and your argument is still erroneous. Unless I’m missing something, Genesis 16:4-5 clearly states that Hagar was initially angry at Sarai, not the other way around–and nowhere was jealousy mentioned in the passage.

However, reputable notes on cultural connotations of the matter are quite hard to come by, but what I can gather, it wasn’t because of the concubinage that the strife had occurred (or that it was “against God’s will”); it’s implied to have been born from Hagar’s sense of superiority over Sarai, her mistress, that she had conceived a child and the other didn’t despite being a slave. That is, property back in those days. Hagar’s attitude in response to her being the mother of Abram’s future “heir” (term used loosely because of…well…Isaac’s existence in the narrative) was noted as being anything but amicable towards Sarai.

The existence of the requested extramarital sex for Ishmael to have been conceived and the fact that there was strife that resulted after it are merely related events due their happening in the same narrative. To assert that one caused the other as a result is a textbook example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

purplepinto

The logical fallacy is yours. You are making assumptions that because Abraham and Sarai acted in a certain way, that it was of God’s direction. Wrong. When the Bible makes mention of particular issues, such as the difficulties and strife between people, you take notice. It’s not simply ‘circumstantial’. There is a reason and 99% of the time it is because humans acted out of their own purpose and ignored God. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/guzik_david/StudyGuide_Gen/Gen_16.cfm

MagmarFire

Um…no, I’m not saying that? Add “straw man” to the rhetorical devices you’re using in lieu of a reasoned argument.

You say it’s “not simply circumstantial,” and since the burden of proof lies with you to support this, do you have evidence in favor of that stance? Because all you’ve done is link to an article that’s already reading into the text with its own biases without any reputable outside sources backing up its claims and also reading into or assuming authorial intent. There’s a word for that, too: It’s called “eisegesis.”

ken

strife does not come about because one disobeys god, it is a direct result of ones actions, god has nothing to do with it, personally i don’t believe in god, I AM my own god, everything i do i do with intent and purpose, except my mistakes of course. I don’t need god to be happy, I don’t need god to save me, I don’t need god period. magmarfire is entirely correct. you are too clouded by poor judgment from your faith that you cannot see two inches infront of your own face. for you who seems to hold god so close, you sure do use him to take the responsibility of the actions of others….. quite pathetic really, plus in my opinion if the rapture happened tomorrow…. I think 90% of the entire christian populace (catholic, protestant, etc.) would be sent straight to hell. why? THE FUCKING WORSHIP OF GRAVEN IMAGES. let me ask you pal, if you were butchered, slaughtered, murdered in cold blood, and your friends praised pictures of your highly disfigured, nearly unrecognizable corpse, would you not be pissed? I know i would. id come back and i would bitch slap them all into the next dimension. Do you think jesus or god would be any different, i don’t think so.

purplepinto

You sound a bit confused Ken. First you are your own god, then you speak of the rapture. Who are you trying to convince here?
You are absolutely twisting and misunderstanding what I said when you claim I’m using God to take responsibility for the actions of others. Re-read what I said. In fact, Magmar is the one claiming God sanctioned certain behaviors simply because it is shown in the Bible. No. People’s sins and disobedience are documented throughout the Bible, and so are the consequences they paid.

purplepinto

The Bible is very consistent with God’s message, however it is full of stories of humans losing their way and failing to heed God’s direction. You have to know truly read it and understand the context.

Jeremy

Isaac had sex with like 4 different women and they all became the leaders of the tribes of Israel thatdoesnt seem like punishment

Jessi

Yea, the bible is SUPER consistent… Killing is wrong unless you are Caleb and Joshua, then sack, pillage, and kill as per god’s orders!

ken

nope its a book of hypocrisy

ken

most of what you call “gods word” is infact man’s added nonsense. the bible’s available to us today actually contain almost no original scripture from the original text translated from the original scrolls. beginning with constantine every translation since has edited and omitted and basically rewritten parts of the holy book you choose to follow, or not, depending on your faith, and how close to faith you are.

purplepinto

This is a widespread myth actually. Constantine had long lasting effects on things like the dates we celebrate Easter, Christmas and aligning the Christian faith with European forms of government rather than having it at odds, as in times prior to his reign, but he was not one who altered the translations of God’s Word.

There is no doubt there are sects of faith (some even go as far as labeling them ‘cults’) that have added in their own doctrine on top of the Word, but the Christian Bible is in most cases, as close to the Hebrew texts as translation to English will allow.

Sex is a good and natural thing in Christianity too. “Sex” isn’t a sin, sex out of marriage is the sin. God wanted people to enter into a covenant with their spouse and make it a sacred bond, an unbroken bond. God is obviously fine with sex in marriage, he even said “be fruitful and multiply.” That requires a good amount of sex, so have at it.

Betty

Many if not most, of the “good” christians I hear from, seem to have on rose colored glasses when it comes to their religion/church/bible/god. I guess some would call it “cherry picking”. How can someone think like that? It’s just not logical, Im afraid.

SillyMe99

they also go a week of lawlessness to take out aggretions something we now call Christmas was between December 17-25 it was also pagans who came up with the date of Jesus’s birthday which was given to them by a Monk so you tell me what is better? I say being spiritual and living life the best you can with minimal damage to other’s in regards for yourself is the best way for me but for you it may be different LOL

Pamela

Sillyme99, you are one dumb human. You don’t know what you are talking about. pagans did not come up with the date of Jesus’s birthday. That was the early christian church. Instead of flapping your lips do some research. I left a comment a few minutes ago, but I’ll repeat what I wrote. Herpes Zoster is caused by the Chicken Pox virus. Most people know it by the name of Shingles. It is not caused by kissing someone with a cold sore. If you weren’t such a dumbass you would know this.

Mark Javorka

Ok, right after this last reply from Cargirl05 is where the giggly “we are all getting along even though we are from different Religious/non Religious views” gives way to the same ole nonsensical shit sloshing from all angles…lol

Mark Javorka

oh and, Parden my intrusion
Read on…lol

VG Lovecraft

Well, nobody said people are “getting along”, but some of us (and no, I am not limiting “us” to Pagans) do our best. Also, you do not need to be “pardoned” for intruding, in my opinion. However, I do pardon you for your misspelling of the word “pardon”.

Mark Javorka

lol I will correct that straight away VG !
Some times my thoughts get ahead of my fingers…

Mark Javorka

I think we all need to first try and be good to our selves and others because that is humane period.

angie497

Hmm, maybe I should look more closely at paganism…

Raven

Sex raises such intense positive energy when done with the right partner, it is suppose to represent the union of male and female deity coming together as one. We are the representation of such deities.
<—happily pagan.

ken

this sounds almost explicitly like something a laveyan satanist like myself would say! i fully agree with this statement

hardwroc

In the dark, under covers, and only in one way, whether she likes it or not.

Stephanie

Actually, in Christianity, sex is considered beautiful and incredible. It is not just for procreation. It is to bring a husband and wife together in the closest way, making them one. Whoever told you it’s only for procreation has their facts wrong and doesn’t know what the Bible says.

mike jones

the bible actually acknowledges that
sex is a gift.

neecnrs

Hey, some of the best beer on earth was made by Christian Monks!! LOL

Ember1

They may have made some okay beer. But better than priesthoods dedicated to it? Nah….

VG Lovecraft

You’ve never tasted Chimay, I would guess. It is some of the best lambic beer in the world, and is still brewed by Belgian monks.

Signed,
A Pagan homebrewer

Ember1

Nope. I really am more of a wine (inc mead) sort. But the best EVER? Some of those old beers were legendary. Mythic even.

VG Lovecraft

Well, I have no idea what the best beer EVER is, especially since that would be a subjective opinion. However, I agree with you about mead. Love that stuff, and I am not usually a wine drinker. Hold on.. . shameless, unsolicited plug coming. . . If you’ve never tried Matanzas Creek merlot, it is my favorite wine. Not inexpensive, but the only wine I have found so far that could make me an alcoholic if I could buy it more often!

Ember1

I’ll look, but I’m in a state with odd laws. Likely it isn’t available here.

I’m fortunate to have a few friends who home brew well so I’m not too deprived.

VG Lovecraft

Yeah, I’m familiar with “odd laws” here, too. No alcohol sales via the internet, no beer or wine in grocery stores. Fortunately, homebrew is some of the best beer available, anyway, in my experience.

Robert Barr

as far as i know drinking is ok as long as you are responsible with it. They drunk wine in the bible times.

VG Lovecraft

Why laugh? It still is true. Chimay lambic is still brewed by Belgian monks today.

penny0314

The same people who eat only one potato chip!

Shaun

Lol, well that is what potlucks are for!

Jennspeeps

Certainly NOT Catholics.

Alina

Not if you are a eucharistic minister and the congress did not drink all the wine in the cup….then you get to chug that like no tomorrow..it was such a great moment :))

Betty

Really? you enjoyed chugging a bunch of strangers backwash? I dont have the words….

Justin

No Catholic I know…

denismcdougall

If you’re a really good Catholic, you get the whole bottle

Pjs8200

And out of the same damn cup….EWWWW.

http://www.monster-island.net/ kushibo

Eucharisters.

Melody Anne Ribis-Roy

Catholics at mass lol

Catholic

catholics.. duhhh

Richard La France

Catholics at communion.

Joey Duff

People with self control?

Tom P

Become an Episcopalian if you want the good wine. The greatest sins in the Episcopal Church have to do with poor taste in wine and tackiness. (I jest. That’s just the stereotype. Though we do drink good wine.)

Randon comment

depends on the church. Some have good wine, others…eh

Tina Shontz

I always thought they should add cheese to the wine and crackers, and call it “the Snackrament”…

Ceil

This is the best idea I’ve ever heard.

Jenn

haha…

Stevemill

Jeezits ! and Christchex ! for everyone !

Semi Sane Person

You forgot the Cracker o’ Christ.

Zing

Mad Dog 20/20 is probably better….

Debbie Edwards

you have never been to Italy ?

disqus_ivSI3ByGmh

It was ok when we were 13 year old altar boys. Oh, and our parish priests all had girlfriends, so they weren’t interested in a bunch of boys who all boxed in the CYO league against the kids from the PAL. We were tough little guinea SOBs back then.

dwerenat

YOU win an internet!

Ramzie

Wrong, it’s Italian wine….. that’s some pretty good sh*t!!

Peter_FairMarket

You have a point. And you get one cup to share with everyone else. Eww.

anti-anti

and sperm if you’re a child, especially a boy. so cool, right? Again, better than chocolate! loooool

problem is u put down catholics yet u all believe in the same god. hmmm

JEFF_777

Problem is, you don’t have a clue, that’s why you are lost! One Christian shouldn’t put down another but all denominations interpret scripture differently. This guy above obviously isn’t a true Christian or he wouldn’t be making statements like that!

Alex

Why would you expect someone named “AnotherAtheist” to be a “true Christian”? The thing is why does it matter what someone else believes? They believe what they want to.

KiKi

Tell me, do you believe the interpretation that God hates gays (Paul, Epistle to the Romans), or that Jesus WAS gay (Gospel of John)? Both are just as valid interpretations.

Dan

Hmm, not true lol. You know very little.

Tom P

AnotherAtheist, I don’t think you’re lost. You seem just fine to me. And you’re welcome at my table anytime. Cheers!

Sterling Hudson

Two things. People, regardless of their religious beliefs are still going to be people.
And I don’t agree with that either. Not one person should judge another person’s soul, that is only for God. As for their rituals or traditions… good or bad. Have some respect people. If you don’t like people busting on your religion, don’t bust on theirs!

Kimmye Pie Flavor Harris

I have to agree with you. I was raised southern baptist but no longer consider myself this denomination. I call myself a new age christian bc of all the hypocritical bull I have experienced in ALL types of denominations. I believe in God, and that’s all that matters. I would never down another religion whether we share a god or not. My boyfriend is actually Jehovah’s Witness. All this confrontation makes us all look bad and we should concentrate on our similarities not our differences.

Jerry Callender

the SBs certainly have their share of little boys, also…

Air_Cav

I hear the Southern Baptists like their men full grown

C P

you know the problem with retards like you is that they don’t hold you underwater nearly long enough.

Steve Ahlbom

As a christian and a baptist I find this hilariously offensive!

Magpie

not funny. Wait staff only make around $2 an hour, so what they did was morally reprehensible.

Jen

In Oregon, wait staff make AT LEAST minimum wage.

amattadohb

I should move to Oregon, I don’t think I ever got more than 3.50 in Maryland

Bignevermo

$2.15 IN fLA!

kansaswaitress

i need to move to oregon.. O.o

Justaguy

Actually, in Oregon they are not only paid min wage, they also get their tips on top of that. You are supposed to report these tips, and pay taxes on them, but in oregon that rarely happens.

Kimmye Pie Flavor Harris

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/posters/flsa.htm
OSHA law states that if a server does not accomplish min wage when adding tips and salary they are reimbursed to equal min wage. So technically they make min wage. I learned this at my first serving job and as having been a manager in that restaurant I know first hand this law is enforced in most places. However the track is still not funny….

AwesomeCrysti

True, but the logic is flawed. As a manager, you should also be familiar with the fact that companies dislike paying the AMG (Amount to Meet Guarantee (minimum wage)) especially when the registers reflect high sales.

Justaguy

Have worked in the food industry for more than 25 years, in 7 states, and I can assure you that this statement is so absolutely untrue that I’m having a hard time wording this in a non insulting manner.

Kimmye Pie Flavor Harris

I didn’t mean to upset you. I posted the OSHA link for you. I served in a place once that tried to hide this from their servers and tried to keep my money from me after I had already managed. Needless to day it didn’t work. You should look into this, you deserve your money if they didn’t pay you properly.

Dee Aguirre

haaaaaaaaaaa… excellent reply.. I’m still cracking up 5 minutes after having read it

Grand1

Yes, we can tell. Churched and ignorant.

Boob

hahaha ya’ll are truly funny! thats what positivitiy is all about keep it up folks! <3 hahahhah this is much appreciated by it all! everyone just needs to chill out, tip properly and with real money, and get along… its not religion that separates us, its ignorance.. remember that.

Debbie Edwards

Hey genius …. all pedophiles are human ….some of which are Southern Baptists too

Steve

Oh, well I suppose since Catholics like little boys that all Southern Baptists are pig fuckers?

penny0314

Southern Baptist, but clearly not Christian. Who gives you the right to make broad generalizations and stand in judgment on others? I think you’re trying to be funny and failing miserably at it.

Souris

Hey, the only people I know who were ever molested by any church officials were little boys raped by a Baptist minister. Since all Catholics “like lil boys” according to you, I suppose I can take this as proof just as easily that all Baptists do too! But keep on stressing your superiority whilst you try to convince educated people that Jesus (or anyone from that time period!) was drinking grape juice.

Justaguy

And in that same statement, you know everyone “ever molested by any church official?” I’m not one to believe “catholic = pedo” , that’s almost as foolish a statement as any I’ve read here. But I think the point some of these people are making is:
The church HAS found people within its own ranks committing these terrible crimes, and instead of properly reporting it to the authorities and putting them on trial the same as any citizen, they are promoting the belief that it’s condoned by moving these perpetrators to different areas and shielding them from the law. By side stepping the morality of those actions and denying culpability, you the believer are actually aiding and abetting known criminals to escape persecution. That is putting belief in god above the laws of man, and what we ALL know to be right and wrong. If an adult ( any gender ) molests a child (also any gender), that person should not be shielded from persecution. Period.

Any side stepping of admitting that those things are unforgivable is a lash to the soul of every person ever victimized. The actions of the few shouldn’t bespeak the souls of the many, but when the many hide, lie, sidestep and shield known offenders in multiple cases, they are then as culpable as the person who committed said crime.

Question: How many of you TRULY believe in your soul that Jesus would be ok with how that particular situation has been handled, by the church as well as the believers? Don’t have to answer honestly to me, but you better have your story straight when you “answer to him for judgement of your soul”.

http://pegponderingagain.com/ Peg Demetris

Its not wine… Its the Body & Blood of Christ – PAX – A Practicing Catholic who knows the Real Presence of our Lord

justme

I am pretty sure it is wine, you can call it whatever you want, but it is just wine.

yoda

so your a corpse eating vampire !!!

John Stein

you’re*

JEFF_777

Sorry Peg, that’s NOT Biblical! Jesus died ONCE, not thousands of times every Sunday all over the world. Also, it’s supposed to be grape juice,NOT fermented! Jesus turned the water at the wedding into NEW WINE which is grape juice! He does NOT condone drunkenness and would NEVER make GALLONS of alcohol for people to make fools of themselves!

Michael Belt

Pro tip: you don’t get to chide somebody for having a non-Biblical point of view whilst espousing a non-Biblical point of view.

That’s not technically true. New wine is fermented. That’s why it was called wine. And BTW wine was generally consumed by believers and non believers in the bible which was in part to the lack of refrigeration in those days. New wine is typically less alcoholic because it hasn’t fermented that long. Fermentation was necessary in things people drunk in that day to prevent water born parasites and bacteria. To drink water that had been sitting for to long was dangerous.
And Jesus did say, “Be not Drunk with wine” in the bible… but he didn’t say never drink wine.

willow reed

quit being a jerk jeff. who cares.

Stacey J Diehl

Yea, total buzz kill.

Debbie Edwards

….it IS biblical read John Chapter 6 …and we don’t believe it is His death each time you troglodyte

Jeff- Spoken like a true Baptist Bible Belter. Read the wedding story again. It speaks of getting drunk at the wedding. You don’t get drunk from grape juice.

penny0314

There are approximately 5 in history who precisely fit the profile presented by Jesus. I don’t fault anyone who chooses to believe that one or more of these are a/the messiah, just please don’t expect me to believe it, especially on the basis of “biblical” teaching.

hohopig

just for the sake of enlightenment …. who are the five?

penny0314

Well, here are a few: Virishna (1200 BC), Beddou (China, 1027 BC),Osirus and Orus of Egypt, Quexalcote of Mexico (300 BC). If you’re interested, I suggest Kersey Graves, “The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors”, New York, 1875. This is still in print and available from Amazon.

Jeff

That’s an interesting theory, but it doesn’t fit the story of the wedding. When the wine was brought to the master of the feast, he remarked that the best was saved for last – that usually the better wine is served first, and when the guests “have well drunk”, the inferior. THIS IMPLIES THAT PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY GETTING DRUNK. The “lol the bible sez wine is grape juice lololol” argument completely ignores the context of the Bible. It was wine. Actual wine. Because really, let’s face it, you don’t want to know what the water was like.

Souris

You’re funny. Maybe try reading some history. And perhaps a biblical translation that isn’t a revisionist joke.

Dan

No… no its not lol. It is not the actual thing, just something you do in remembrance of him. Catholics – They like to drink peoples blood!!

Lee

“Drinking blood” is called Transubstantiation. Protestants believe that the wine actually becomes the blood of Christ, so they have to drink all of it. It isn’t actually blood.

penny0314

Lee, this isn’t correct, either. Most Protestants believe the wine is purely symbolic. Transubstantiation is a rather uniquely Catholic doctrine.

Debbie Edwards

the accidents of His body blood soul and divinity ….

penny0314

Dan, I don’t believe that stuff, but your remark is ignorant, untrue, and juvenile.

Rich Girard

I was an alter boy and I can tell you was really crappy wine without a doubt thankfully, there was no body and blood.

Morris Rhoades

No.. it doesn’t, ..Tell me you don’t REALLY believe that a priest can turn wine to blood and crackers to human flesh? And if he can, tell him to step up and claim his Nobel prize.

penny0314

Morris, just as you have a right to believe whatever you wish, so do they. Just as you should not be mocked for your beliefs, neither should they.

Morris Rhoades

Pointing out the fictional claims isn’t mocking their beliefs, it’s pointing out the truth. When you may silly unrealistic assertions with no said evidence, what would you really expect to happen.? I respect everyone’s right to believe the way they want or not, that doesn’t mean I have to respect the beliefs themselves, just the person.

penny0314

If it makes you happy to believe this, have at it! Just don’t expect the rest of us to accept it!

John Stein

Pax means peace in Latin, and it was also the name of the Roman goddess of peace.

Semi Sane Person

No, it’s wine and crackers that have been ritually imbued to -symbolize- the Body and Blood of Christ. If you actually think you’re eating the man and drinking his blood, I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you… but I’m pretty sure that would be against most health codes anyway.

Meg

Wine that’s supposed to represent the blood of Jesus. That’s just a little much for me.

TrueBlue42

Make it Guinness, then we’ll talk.

Stacey J Diehl

Can I have God, wine, peanut butter AND chocolate?

NOLAguy

My religion and it’s services usually involve drinking and sharing (because sharing is caring!) various types of Rum. I do love Voodoo…

Shaun

The wine goes good with chocolate!

Scott VudderHütz Rodger

that wine sucks
the priest fapped in it

Pete Watson

Apparently it’s blood but I hear it tastes suspiciously like wine.

Grand1

As a former sinful altar boy, I can assure you it is wine when the mass starts! lol

tipper3

WHAT?

Adam Sumner

What if instead of bread and wine it was red wine and chocolate? Actually I would still never go near a church.

Romix Valeski

Catholics also diddle your kids so…no thanks.

Sam

Yeah but they also tell you it’s blood, which loses some points for the wine incentive.

wolfi

Where I live the catholic priest drinks the wine himself – only protestants share it with the community

hardwroc

OK, chocolate AND wine, and you have me, until the chocolate or wine runs out.

Peter_FairMarket

What could be better than wine and chocolate for this Catholic atheist?

arthurr

Maggie-what if i told you God has a gigantic all you can eat chocolate buffet in Heaven for you–would that help?

Stitch

Now THAT’S a deity I could get behind! AYCE Chocolate! and it’s Heaven, so You’ll never get fat!

Dear God you have no idea what you just unleashed on the world! *Starts formulating junk food based religion*

Clare

“God is good. God and chocolate are better.” -St. Teresa of Avila

Nita

We have only one God. I waited tables for 13 years and I had a few that left tracks and a tip . I am a Christian, no I do not go out and try to convert everyone I see.I see it this way you either believe or you don’t , but just remember the next time trouble knocks on your door and you have nowhere left to turn, look up. Jesus will be waiting on you. Other than that have a Great Veterans Day and lets remember those that did serve and are serving .

Souris

Who’s this “we?” I have several, and they’re far more responsive than Jesus ever was.

John Stein

Yes, and you were also probably converted into an atheist with “free” Obamaphones and “free” healthcare.

Shaun

Easter has chocolate eggs.
Christmas has Hot Chocolate.

Proventus

One word. Easter. ;p

Robert Barr

so you would choose to believe that there was this huge explosion in space, where there was nothing there before, and then when all the dust settled up popped animals, fish, trees and such. That sounds more like a fairy tale than believing in GOD. But you will have to die to find out if you are right. Then if you are wrong then you threw away the only thing that truely matters, your salvation. If i am wrong and there is no GOD then when i die i will cease to exist and therefore i lost nothing by believing. I hope that you don’t believe in ghosts either because that would be proof of life after death and if there is life after death then GOD and satan must be true also. May GOD bless you !

Oh yeahhhh! Chocolate contains theobromine, “the food of the gods”. Surely someone has already started such a religion? At any rate, I have already taken communion this morning!

Scottilla

That was an old Imus joke.

Gefilte Fish & horseradish…
Colored eggs and chocolate bunnies…
No wonder there are billions of them and a handful of us!

VG Lovecraft

Theobroma cacao is chocolate. Theobroma literally translates to “food of the gods”. Ixcacao is the Mayan goddess of chocolate. Ask her if you may have some. Personally, I prefer Ghirardelli 60% cacao chocolate, if she provides you with any “surplus”.

Knux Kitsune

This red velvet cake is my body. Eat it in remembrance of me. This root beer float is my blood. Drink it in remembrance of me…

Edit: Wait, that would quickly become the First Church of Diabetes.

joefalco

Quuetzcoatl is your god

Christina Chornomud

Maggie what about easter? Delicious chocolates hand delivered in a basket!

CB

Christians believe God does the converting. Don’t misrepresent our beliefs if you’re going to take time to ridicule us! Educate yourself!

Architect

chocolate Jesus anyone? LOL

giles

There’s no such thing as a non-religious Jew – you’re a Jew, period.

Susanne Freeborn

Who the heck are you to determine someone else’s experience?

giles

Hey, its just my opinion… if you don’t like it… well you know what to do.

Mark Schmidt

My opinion is you are an idiot…and YOU know what you can do, too.

anti-anti

mine is that you’re a nazi fucker. SCHMIDT! zieg heil.

Jamie Mattox

you are spouting your opinion as fact get a life Guest

http://myspace.com/fcr_stop_ice Bludgeon

Except for the fact that some Jews are atheists? Sure you can be a non-religious Jew if you are ethnically Jewish and not practicing. And you can also be a religious Jew without having any Jewish ancestry. What is your point?

giles

Exactly, there’s no point therefore saying “hi i’m a non-religious Jew” then is there?

Snackpants

If there’s a recognized distinction (that you seem to share even, according to your comments) of religion or ethnicity between them, then it would seem there actually is a point in them saying which one of the 2 they aren’t.

Grats on trolling.

http://myspace.com/fcr_stop_ice Bludgeon

Yes, there is a point. I know people of Jewish descent who do not practice, yet are still proud of identifying their ethnic and cultural roots.

VG Lovecraft

A Jew is actually a genetic, as well as a “religious” designator. A person born “Jewish” does not need to follow the religion of Judaism. Hopefully, I have assisted in the lessening of your ignorance, Giles. And no, I not Jewish genetically or in the religious sense. I am genetically Norse and Scottish, and a Pagan.

Guest

Actually according to Jewish law you’re wrong, its not genetic at all, Jewish heritage is passed according to the Mother’s Jewishness. One can have Jewish genes but not be identified as Jewish. And to be considered Jewish you don’t have to observe Jewish customs, but thats exactly my point.

GoGadgetGo

You might want to seek clarification on that…the NSDAP has some good literature on that. This is exactly the reason i do not partake in mass hysteria. One wants to shovel guilt on you every Sunday, the other claims that you are guilty by birth and the third wants you to handle poison reptiles. Nay Nay i say, let me be and don’t hassle me. Oh, if you pull a HALE BOB 3X don’t you think its about time to pack it in?

VG Lovecraft

To quote your original comment: “There’s no such thing as a non-religious Jew – you’re a Jew, period.” You are correct that the Jewish *religious/cultural” heritage is passed down the maternal line. If you now say that one can have the genes, and not identify as Jewish, this means they are not Jewish in the “religious” sense. Hence, that person would be a “non-religious” Jew. And, a person who chooses Judaism as their religion, without having any genetic connection (via either male or female line) is Jewish in the religious sense.

marcel

So is it possible to become a Jew without being born one or to convert to one from being a christian?. It should be easy enough, just renounce the Messiah, and celebrate saturday rather than Sunday.

Moreyn Kamenir

Now THAT statement proves ignorance. There is a way to convert to Judaism however there is much more to it than that! Judaism is VERY different from this new christian religion. Wow perhaps you don’t realize how belittling/condescending your statement was. Just popped in to tell you.

marcel

Just wondered, i get people at the dooor all the time trying to convert me, but never any jews so i have assumed that you have enough and need no more. Strange when you see how many people convert to muslim each yesr. Maybe the jews should make it easier to become so and not be so elitist.

Loni Gaudet

Elitist? Are you insane? We just don’t worry about whether people join us or not. It’s a choice. Make it if you want to.

marcel

ok, join me up….is there a fee/

gregzimmerman007

Those people at your door are never Jehovah’s witnesses? Can someone tell me if this religious sect is categorized under that of Christianity or of Judaism? or perhaps neither – i.e. they are separate.

anti-anti

LOL, BELITTLING statement? What do you think about Palestine, asshole? What the Nazi-Jews have been doing for the past 70+ years there. Is that something to make you proud as a Jew? lol you creatures are so funny. Puke.

Robin Salvadori Allison

Actually, as practiced by most “Christians” you’re correct, but if you are actually following Jesus’ teachings, you’d be very close to the more liberal Jewish sects in practice. Jesus was Jewish, and He was trying to reform Judaism, not found a religion. Peter and his followers continued in that vein, while Paul went about making things more palatable to the gentiles. Politically, Paul won out, as more gentiles converted than Jews, so technically most of today’s Christians are more properly Paulists. Your actual practicing Christians-the ones who are not out there making the news- are very close to the roots of Judaism.

Great book I’m slowly working my way through is the Jewish Annotated New Testament- I believe it came out a year ago, might have been 2. Fun stuff, like a reference to the female aspect of God

gregzimmerman007

Thank you for posting your first paragraph. It was very informative to me. I never really knew that Paul became the politically successful one lobbying for followers under Jesus – which became the new religion of Christianity (“Paulists”).
I do know however that the times in which Jesus lived with the Romans dominating the secular aspects of the local scene and the Jews dominating the religious scene could only mean one thing for a newcomer who was proclaimed the new “King of the Jews”: depravity and an early death for Christ who was viewed as a “threat” to both the Romans and the Jews, neither of which wanted to lose power to a new king.
God bless His heart and soul. Amen.

AriellaHero

The Jews weren’t dominating any such thing. They were occupied by the Romans, who has a tendency to appoint people who supported the Roman occupation to positions of power, like the Temple. THE Jews, ie the entire body of the Jewish people didn’t dominate anything.

Moreyn Kamenir

That cracks me up and makes me shudder all at the same time. The Jewish bible christians refer to as the old testament ever since they wrote their own book and named it ‘new’. Before that ‘new’ testament was written there was none referred to as ‘old’.
Stop blurring the lines between religions by saying christians are following the roots of judaism. It reduces both to a joke.

David Monroe Ward

There are no “Jewish genes”. All human beings are of one race.

Foq

by Jewish standards, it is maternal line that carries that. If your mother is Jewish, even if you are not practicing Judaism, you are welcome by the people, and eligible for help / advise etc. clueless comment is clueless

David Monroe Ward

You’re talking cultural issues. I’m talking GENES- biology.

David Monroe Ward

See Haven Acariâtre’s comment.

gregzimmerman007

David, TRUE this. BUT there are features that predominate in cultures. Mediterranean cultures usually have dark hair, dark eyes and dark skin whereas Northern European and Scandinavian cultures usually have light hair, light eyes and light skin. These are the ethnic differences in peoples which can be found all over the world. Therefore, there ARE genetic differences which can be found in every ethnicity of peoples across the wide, wide world. For example, two Ashkenazi Jews are not permitted to marry because often they will cause a rare one-gene/one-chromosomal blood disorder to be revealed in their offspring despite its rareness. Another example of a rare (recessive chromosomal/genetic autosomal) disorder is cystic fibrosis that only seems to develop in offspring of two WHITE adults that are carriers of the chromosome/gene. Thus, all their are many differences in ethnic groups, the differences do not connotate ONLY strength or ONLY weakness in the genetic makeup of that ethnicity. Indeed, each ethnicity world-wide has different vulnerabilities to and different strengths for warding off disease(s) within its genetic code. In fact today, one can pay $100 for a genetic/chromosal makeup test of oneself to see where one’s vulnerabilities (and strengths?) to disease(s) lie and thus modify their lifestyle TO TRY TO PREVENT disease going forward. It’s my belief that the field of Preventive Medicine will become THE WAVE OF FUTURE MEDICINE as if you can prevent disease, think how much you save in terms of yourself in NOT having to permit your body to push through the disease. It would be a very great thing, and barring Obamacare which may completely derail our medical advancements, we could ultimately lead MUCH HEALTHIER LIVES than anyone ever imagined, even me.

David Monroe Ward

What you’re talking about is much like two people having their blood checked before they decide to have children, in order to see if they might have blood type issues. There is a difference between genetics and genetic code. I was responding to all the references I’ve seen on here referring to “Jewish genes”… That’s just plain racism.

Derek

Exactly.

Derek

just white people for CF? lol… youre getting more racist. Every person has the chance of hidden or dormant disease/ health issues. Habit and repetition make up the majority of what you are claiming.. like diabetes in americans.. because people choose to keep living unhealthy. Also, there is not one shred of information about religions and lineage in that last post.. you just went off into a different tangent! As for an ounce of prevention…, America has clearly lost sight of its own fore father’s words.

Mike Williams

Sammy Davis Junior…

Jay Jones

Who gives a flying fuck. Does it really matter? Is it going to change the world if hes a religious Jew or not. Jesus fucking Christ, get over yourself.

gregzimmerman007

To theologians and to those interested in religion JJ, it does matter. Remember JJ, He died on the cross for you!

anti-anti

yeah, the SUN of God, died on the Cross (N.S.E.W. earth wind water fire). Another tale to create more sleepers

dngemini

Again, you’re closer but this is according to “jewish teaching”, not reality. There are no Jewish genes. Are there Catholic genes? NO. These folks are Spanish, German, Polish, Russian, etc Jews. They practice Judaism, they don’t practice there heritage.

gregzimmerman007

Most practicing Jews emanated from a Mediterranean culture which was disseminated from their original lands by many things and they settled in many lands – many countries as you mention. But although Jews may be German-Jews or Russian-Jews or Israeli-Jews or American-Jews, they are more defined by their “Jewishness” than by the countries they live in when we are speaking about their genes and ethnicity. NOTICE I AM NOT SPEAKING ABOUT CULTURE because we know that cultures are much different than genetics and ethnicity. For example, Japan-Japanese and American-Japanese are VERY different culturally, but very similar genetically/ethnically. Another example: African-Africans and African-Americans are very different culturally, but not ethnically/genetically. The SAME is also true of ALL the other groups: China-Chinese vs. American-Chinese, Indochina-Indonesians vs. American-Indonesians, European-Europeans vs. American-e

dngemini

They identify as jews by choice, not by their dna or ethnic background. That’s my point. No one is born a Jew. One is raised such. This is beyond hysterical.

Derek

You contradict yourself… You should keep in mind, your previous posts.

nonya

This is a belief held by only Orthodox Jews. There are other groups of Jews were this doesn’t apply.

Haven Acariâtre

Seeing as “race” and “ethnicity” are social constructs how exactly can one be “genetically” jewish?(serious question btw)

Jessica Burde

Complex topics with no easy answers, but when specific genetic disorders are found specifically and commonly among a certain population (as Tay Sachs is among Askenazic Jews) I feel comfortable saying that one can be ‘genetically’ Jewish (ie, share enough ancestry with that population to have a similar gene set and the same genetic advantages and disadvantages)

dngemini

They are Ashkenazi Jews, which are German. Also some French Candians and Cajuns suffer from Tay-Sachs. So there is a link but it’s not a religion that causes it.

Haven Acariâtre

Those genetic disorders are not dependent on being that particular race…if you have a group of people who share their genetic code rather exclusively with each other then yes you will find commonality among their genes as far as disorders but that is correlation not causation. If it were causation then ALL Tay Sachs would be found solely in Askenazic Jews, ALL Sickle Cell anemia would be found in Black Americans, ALL skin melanoma would be found in White Americans, and that is simply not the case. Those disorders are a result of breeding and not the “race” of those breeding. That is simple Biology 101.

William R. James

The Jews and Arabs are the same race, Semites but with different cultural heredity. Obviously, that excludes converts to Judaism. “Jewish” has two contexts, religion and culture. The religious context has no racial relevance. While the vast majority of religious Jews are Semites, they make up a very small percentage of the Earth’s Semite population. The cultural and ethnic context has some racial overlap. While there is no ‘Jewish gene’, most Jews have genetic linage going back to the early Jewish population, which make them cousins to the other Semites.

Haven Acariâtre

What makes a Semite a Semite? Where is the Semite gene? There is none. You basically defined a cultural construct with another cultural construct. That early Jewish population didn’t pop up out of the ether. That early Jewish population came from another population that apparently didn’t follow whatever that Jewish population wanted to follow, their genes did not mutate when they decided that they were Jewish…there was thousands of years of civilization prior to that early jewish population. To say that one can be genetically any race is to hold the illusion that a race was at some point “pure” on a scientific level and that isn’t the case.

William R. James

That’s nonsense! What makes a Semite a Semite is genetic just as it is with any other race. There are slight differences that make each person unique (except identical siblings), and same is true for genetic groups, including families and races on a broader scale. There is no “Semite gene” or “Negro gene” but there are genetic sequences unique to each race.

Haven Acariâtre

What is nonsense to you is backed by Science. Go to any biology professor and ask them if race is cultural or genetic, this is basic Biology 101. Those slight differences you refer to is not a result of genetics, period. What makes a Semite is cultural. A family has tall members not because of their race but because the genes were passed down in the family. Whatever genetic sequences that are unique to a specific group is not because of the perceived race of that group but because of the exclusive breeding within that group.

Not so much, when it comes to the sephardic Jews – but with regards to the Ashkenazi Jews
yes. They came to Germany from the Middle East about a thousand years
ago and it is proved that they derived from 4 women only. Ever since
then they’ve moved eastwards always sticking to their own community,
never marrying outside their group. Thus, you can speak of an ethnicity.

dngemini

VG Lovecraft
That is the rhetoric you’ve been taught. That is nonsense. Can one convert to Judaism? Yes, they can. Can one convert to Italian, Black, Chinese, German, Russian etc.or any other genetic code? The answer is no. Check yourself before calling others ignorant and get off the cool aid. Jewish is a religion, nothing more.

VG Lovecraft

I didn’t mention “converting” to any genetic code. I simply said that one could be “genetically Jewish”. However, William R. James is actually correct (see below). Arabs and Jews are both of the Semitic race, so instead of saying one can be “genetically Jewish”, I should have said that one can be culturally Jewish, while being “non-religious” which a “Guest” formerly posting as “Giles” said, “there’s no such thing as a “non-religious Jew”.

Jess

“Your Logical Fallacy Is: Personal Incredulity

Because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it’s probably not true.”

Since you clearly skipped the chapter on homonyms in grade school English class, allow me to explain that our language has some words in it that are spelled exactly the same, but have completely different meanings.

An example is the word “bear.” One has the right to “bear” arms under the Second Amendment; bear is a verb meaning “to carry.” Bear also refers to a big furry animal; it’s a noun. Same spelling, two different meanings.

(Erm, or if you’re a dumf**k teabagger, you have the right to “bare” arms under the Second Amendment, and you might go sleeveless and have “bare” arms when you do so. In that case, your incorrect use of the word still has the same spelling, but two different meanings.)

Judaism is a religion that originated with a Semitic people, the descendents of whom we refer to as “Jewish.” Likewise, Islam is a religion that originated with another Semitic people, the descendents of whom we refer to as “Arab.” One does not need to be Arab to practice Islam; nor is it a requirement that one be Jewish in ethnicity to practice Judaism. Those who practice Islam are referred to as “Muslim.” Those who practice Judaism are referred to as “Jewish.”

“Jewish” is a HOMONYM – it has two different meanings, but is always spelled the same way.

Lauren Beth

I totally agree and tell everyone this all the time! I’m Jewish, but my nationality is Hungarian, Romanian and Polish. Jewish is NOT a nationality. So annoying and stupid people are!

Try and comprehend, if you can. You belong to a club that is called Jewish. You do not have Jewish blood. Jewish is a religion, just like Catholicism, Muslim and all other religions. God’s chosen people is the most absurd and racist comment, if one believes in the big man in the sky, so the god you believe in is as big a racist as you are. Just that coming out of your mouth reveals the childish mentality under which you operate. I suppose I should ask how old you are and possibly take that into consideration.

Jews are no better or worse than any other. Sorry dear. You’re are just garden variety people, like all of us. You are not entitled to anything more than the rest of us because you are Jewish. That’s just an elementary moral truism. You’re entitled to nothing. So, as I said, live happily in the land of Mythomania, but don’t cry persecution when Israel implodes on itself. You can thank yourself and your racist Zionist comrades for what they’ve done. You’re really quite sad.
You are not born a jew you are raised as one. Deal with it.

anti-anti

maybe this is why you’re ignorant while calling others as ignorant. Genetic? Seriously? Have any Jews done any DNA tests lately? And which are the “real” jews? Is it the Caucasians (Mount Caucasus)? Is it the Khazarians (converted to Judaism)? Is it the Ashkenazim? LoL! i love you, Lovecraft. Too cool to school.

Red Wolf

What a small world My mother was able to follow our line all the way back to the time of Robert the Bruce.

Right is Wrong

If you have a spare moment, you might try getting some help in having your head removed from your anal pore.

Mike Williams

Your wrong. Jewish is considered a race and a religion. You can therefore be a non-practicing Jew who enjoys the bacon. Or, you can where funny sideburns and cart diamonds around in your money belt.

To everyone offended by my post. Too bad.

Karen Lynne Whyte

Israeli is a race. Jewish is a religion. Sorry if you’re offended by facts.

Jessica Burde

I know an Arab raised in Israel who would firmly disagree with that statement. Israeli is a nationality.

please, before you refer to “God Almighty” and all that heavenly shit, be sure of what you’re talking about, no? You wouldn’t want to make “GOD” think you’re stupid or ignorant, now, would you? as William R. James very eloquently put it, “Israeli is a nationality, not a race.” And i might take it a bit further, that Israeli is a faux nationality, since the nation was, is and will always be, PALESTINE. It’s under occupation, but that doesn’t change its name or history/future. Simple as that. The Greeks were under Turkish occupation from 1453 till 1821. They were still Greece, though… And always will be. But feel free to call it neverneverland or whatever.

dngemini

Slow your roll, it’s just an expression. I’m in full agreement with you on everything. For the sake of this idiotic topic and to attempt to make things clear, I’m referring to the apartheid state of Israel as legitimate. I agree it is and always will be Palestine.

anti-anti

Israeli is a race? Israel is a nation as far as the UN is concerned. A race? Wtf? Since when has the “state of Israel” existed? Do you have any idea? How many aeons does it takes for a specific group to become a race? Israeli is a race as much as bananas are nuts. You might say “he went bananas” or “he went nuts”, but that’s got nothing to do with anything. loooool

marcel

Then do the atheists in Israel call themselves israelites?

anti-anti

no, they call themselves “occupying force”. In a real world.

Karen Lynne Whyte

Israeli, Israelite…either way, whatever their religion is.

AriellaHero

Israeli is a nationality not a race. Arab Israelis for example…

dngemini

It’s considered this by the Jews and they’ve managed to convince many that this is real. It’s for purposes that are too complicated to explain here and not really relevant to this subject, but if one can convert to it than it’s nothing more than a religion. Is that not the most rudimentary concept? I know a woman who married a Jew and converted so the kids would be Jewish. Those kids are no more Jewish than anyone else if they don’t practice. If the mother was not born a Jew than there’ no maternal blood line. I don’t know what the father’s heritage is, but for the sake of argument we’ll say he’s of German decent. The mother is Scottish. Those kids half German and half Scottish. Their religion is Jewish, although they don’t even practice so again, they’re not even that.

anti-anti

First of all, it’s YOU’RE, not YOUR. Secondly,
this is only done by Zionists and for their own agenda. Anyone getting into that shit is just plain ignorant. Then, Muslims should call all of Asia as “Motherland”, then call anyone from Asia as “Muslim” and if you go against that, you’re a racist nazi. LOL The whole “race” shit was invented after Israel was shoved down Palestine’s (and the world’s) throat. Making Jews from America not being Americans, but Jewish, thus having a holy obligation to pledge allegiance towards “The Land of the Jews”, i.e. Israel. This puts people from all over the world into a tight spot. Are they nationals of the country they were born in, or are they moles working for Israel’s sake in a “foreign land”? Can you spot the danger? If so, can you take it a bit further in terms of time?

Mike Williams

I know which word it is, I just like to see who the grammar nazi’s are.

You really don’t believe all that do you?

Israel is exactly where it has been for over 6,000 years. As for not being a race. you are way deep in the wrong again category. Why not just look into the research yourself here plug this into google

” Jewish gene ” take any of the results and educate yourself.

Muslim is an offshoot of Judaism, just like Christianity is.
And you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Until you can further discuss the issue with knowledge of the subject that was not obtained from propaganda from Neo-Nazi.com don’t comment.
All you’re doing is displaying a total ignorance of what the real world is.

On the subject of Palestine, Palestine was part of Judea. Jewish people have lived in that area more than 5,000 years before Christianity or Muslim religions even began. Funny thing about being Muslim. You might be a genetic Jew.

Same with Christians, and even evangelicals…

Pick up a history book and read it. Zionist , indeed the battle cry of the unlearned.

LegalCat

My dad would have agreed wholeheartedly with this. He was brought up in a super-orthodox Jewish household; they had shabbes goys and everything. (That being a non-Jew whom you hire to come around your house on Saturday morning and light the fire so you don’t freeze to death, because you can’t do that yourself, because that would be working on the Sabbath.) At some point in his adult life, he forgot Yom Kippur. Just spaced it out; he was very busy, what with being in the Army during WWII. From that moment on, he was not a Jew, as far as he was concerned. He got really, really annoyed when anyone suggested that he was a Jew. Because, to him, a defining characteristic of being a Jew was to observe Yom Kippur. He didn’t, so he wasn’t, simple as that. He stopped keeping kosher and never went to another service in his life.

Of course, he was kind of nuts. But the concept that there’s no such thing as a non-religious Jew was very much part of his personality. So it’s not such a ridiculous idea.

Jay Jones

Again, I repeat, does it really fucking matter?

anti-anti

why don’t you go and watch a movie or something if you’re not interested, fuck’o. Simple as that. Can’t get in a conversation and be the asshole saying “why are we talking about this and not something else, guys?”. “Cause we fucking chose to, assface”, would be a good reply.

dngemini

Actually it does matter, Jay Jones, if you look at what’s happening in Palestine and Syria (the Goland Heights) and the Sinai Peninsula and every surrounding area to what is today called Israel. Zionists (extremists) believe they have a god given right to this region and they’ve convinced many, on this page alone, that there is an entitlement to god’s chosen people. Yeah, it matters a great deal in the current political landscape. It’s all based on bible and torah, which somehow the Zionists have convinced many in power and the numbskulls on this page that the bible is a land deed. It’s completely bogus.

AriellaHero

Actually, Dngemini, please shut the hell up before you hurt yourself. You know jack about the foundation of Israel or Jewish history. You also don’t know what the term God’s Chosen People actually means. You know, holding to the Laws of Moses that kind of thing. And you act like there were no Jews in the area after the Roman occupation, there were. The Arabs didn’t arrive until after the Prophet died. As for Palestine… That was the name of a geographic region. It was never a nation, and in fact, originally was the term by which Jews were referred to before the founding of the modern state of Israel. The Arabs there didn’t call themselves Palestinians until 1964. Get educated.

dngemini

You are embarrassing yourself and no I won’t shut the hell up. This isn’t the occupied territories and you don’t get to spew your ignorant lies and tell anyone to keep quiet. I actually encourage you to keep talking. Your recount of history is enough to make one collapse into hysterics.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you, you’ll have to do that on your own if you ever choose to leave the world of Zionist propaganda and enter the real world.

Derek

Whatever happened to asking god for forgiveness? He was serving gods fellow children (not that war is the best way), and it seems as though he completely lost faith in his god, by not following his will…. So for example, if A man in the military fails to finish a mission COMPLETELY.. then goes AWOL, its alright to do? What happened to all the years being trained (raised) to serve that source your believe so much in following.
But like you said, he was nutty at times.. I just thought that story was interesting and confusingly contradictory.. But to each his own.

dngemini

Actually, if you’re non religious, then you’re not a Jew. There’s no such thing as a non-religious Catholic or Baptist, etc Jewish is a religion and religion only. For example, I’m Italian whether I practice or not. Black, Chinese, etc are the same. I cannot convert to these things. I can convert to Judaism and other religions. Therefore, if you do not follow the religion of Judaism, you’re not Jewish. No one is born a Jew, they are raised in the faith, the same as all religions. It’s funny to me how Judaism is the only religion that has adopted itself to be a nationality.

Celestial Sojourner

Because it IS a nationality, since 1945, accomplished with the founding of the Nation of Israel. And we are all cousins, all the same species, but there are different genetic traits among populations, such as Sickle Cell Anemia in the black race, Tay Sachs among the Jews, Cystic Fibrosis and Hemophilia among those of Northern European heritage, or alcholoism among Native Americans. 98% of all Native Americans have the same blood type, (“O”) and they don’t produce as much alcohol-dehydrogenase, which metabolizes ETOH in the liver, as the rest of us do. . Our ancestry does dictate our genetic code.

dngemini

Your ancestry does dictate genetic code not your religion which is what I said. Ashkenazi Jews are prone to Tay Sachs, they are German. Also French Canadians from Southern Quebec and some Cajuns. What the link is, I don’t know, I’m not a doctor but I can tell you it’s not being Jewish. Jews aren’t the only ones who get Tay-Sachs. I believe Blacks are the only ones who get sickle cell anemia. It’s an interesting topic to research, for sure, if it affects you.

Isaac Rosenbloom

My last name is Rosenbloom. What ethnicity does that hark of? Certainly not my Hispanic or Mediterranean ones. No, it of my Jewish roots. Yet I’m an atheist. See how that works?

dngemini

A really quick search shows Rosenbloom is the American spelling of Rosenblum and it is Ashkenazic which is German. You’re ancestors were Germans who practiced the Jewish religion. They didn’t come from a place called Jewland, they came from Germany. Just like O’Neils, and O’Ryans and O’Bryans etc come from Ireland, not Catholicland. They are Irish who practice the Catholic religion.

anti-anti

so, why are you a Jew if you’re not religious? Since when is Judaism an Ethnic identity and not a Religion? Aren’t you supposed to be a non-religious American or English or French or Spanish? wtf is up with that? Is it a pre-Israel condition or was it fabricated after Israel was created? i’ll go with the latter. What would your reaction be to someone describing himself as a non-religious Muslim? That’s exactly what you did here.

Mathematicaster

If you do not understand that being a Jew is an ethnic identity, you need to learn a bit more before you open your mouth and sound ignorant. Your status as a Muslim can be acquired as an adult by anyone. This is different from being a Jew. When Muslims I know talk about being non-religious they are stating simply that they hail from a predominately Muslim country. THe way I hail from a predominantly christian one. As a result I know that stores are / were closed on Sunday but I don’t care. In a Muslim country, stores are open on Sunday. Do you know why?
Some things are gotten osmoticly but being a Jew isn’t one. Please try to stop being a racist.

anti-anti

lol, ignorance is soooooooooo fucking funny. Dude, you’ve been indoctrinated and i accept that, i can’t change your mind, so i won’t even try. I’ll just state the obvious. The Jews made up the rules, the Jews enforce it and the rest of the world is just observing (blindly). You can’t “acquire the status” of being a Jew (god forbid) as an adult. But as a Muslim, you can. Hahahahaha this shit came out of your mouth (fingers). Spewing Jewish propaganda without a doubt, or even a thought. This is our world today. Thankfully, there are actual ancient peoples in this world (i am one of them) who weren’t taught history only in schools and universities (them too) who are laughing their asses off when listening/reading statements such as this. And again, i can’t be racist. You have to go against a race to be racist, no? I’m only for the truth and justice, not against someone in particular. Easy.

Jess

Smh, where the f**k did I leave my can of Troll-B-Gone?

anti-anti

did you check your usual hiding place of thick objects? (your anus)

Your Father.

HAHahahahahhahaha your level of misunderstanding is fuckin hilarious
get some world experience and perspective then try again

You sir are a fucking idiot.

JA

yes because southern BAPTISTS TELLING THERE CHILDREN THEY ARE GOING TO HELL for everything they do that is the way to go

Fakjbf

Judaism believes that they are descended from Abraham. That means that only a descendant of Abraham can be Jewish. Therefor Judaism can be included in your ethnic identity. It’s not “spewing Jewish propaganda” it’s interpreting their religious customs. Christianity and Islam don’t follow this bloodline tradition, they believe that anyone who accepts the faith can be saved. And that is why being Christian or Muslim cannot be included in your ethnic identity. This isn’t to say that you can’t consider yourself not a Jew even when you are included in the heritage, you still have to accept the faith and follow their other rules, which is where the Nazi’s went wrong when describing them as a race, but it is part of your ethnicity.

John

Here is a link to give you a more accurate description of the difference between Hebrew, Jewish, and Israelite. Your first sentence is not quite accurate….

So the people that perpetrate the confusion are the people that we should look to for answers?
Interesting theory, and probly where big government got the idea ….

Redmond Jennings

Even in the Bible there are converts to Judaism, and most Jews today have more descent from European converts than we do from the original tribes. That’s why most of us don’t look like Arabs.

Michael Gmirkin

“This isn’t to say that you can’t consider yourself not a Jew even when you are included in the heritage, you still have to accept the faith and follow their other rules…”

Umm, nobody “has to” do anything. People have available and make CHOICES. Faith / religion is a CHOICE to believe in a fairy god-man, just like any other choice.

gregzimmerman007

Racist? When did being Jewish have to do with Race? Why do Liberals everywhere try to make something that is a non-racial issue into a racial one?? Every time I say something negative about Muslim terrorists i’m called a “racist”. When I call Obama a Muslim, every Liberal cries, “you’re a racist !” No i’m not, i’m just stating the truth. Obama was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia as a Muslim. He was NOT born in Hawaii as he claims and his birth certificate was declared a counterfeit as well by multiple experts. In other words, we have a Liar-in-chief (LIC) in office as President. These are multiple indisputable facts that make up the overall truth about the POTUS. For those Liberals who cannot handle the truth, they will try to label me with any one of the following disparaging terms: racist, liar, bigamist, radical, irrational, fascist, non-bipartisan, ridiculous, retarded, and so on, none of which apply to me in the least bit. thank you, AMEN and God Bless the USA.

Ah yeah

Your entitled your own opinion, but NOT your own facts. President Obama was born in 1961. Kenya didn’t even exist until 1964. That’s when Kenya became a country. Until then it was called East British Africa.

NotJoshin

Ah yeah… before you repeat as a parrot everything you hear, you might want to research that little tidbit of info for yourself. Even though Kenya didn’t receive it’s independence until 1964, since the 1920′s the area was known as… wait for it… yep, KENYA!

XLancer

It was called “Kenya” by its inhabitants. Officially, it was the Colony and Protectorate of Kenya until its independence in 196*3*, and that name would’ve appeared on all government documents.

BlsedB

Wrong. It was pronounced Keen-ya. It was later changed after their independence in 63 to Ken-ya. Since the name was even documented in the 19th century, your facts are flawed. Being a country and gaining your independence are separate FACTS, perhaps you should learn that next time.

Dimocrat

OMG OBAMA IS JEWISH!?

Jess

Well, he hosts a Seder every year at the White House.

Amanda Itiswhatitis Saunders

no he is really an Alien from the planet Mars..you haven’t gotten the memo yet

Jess

Take your medicine, dude.

dngemini

This isn’t even worth responding to but just for the sake of putting another “birther” in their place I’ll go in. As you said, you’re entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. I can’t comment to your “experts” on the birth certificate, but Obama’s mother was, until her death a U.S. citizen. Her son, Obama Barack Obama, could have been born on the moon, he is STILL an American citizen. Just as his opponent in the 2008 elections, John McCain, was born in Panama is a U.S. citizen.
So what if he was raised in the Muslim faith? What does that have to do with anything?

anti-anti

you have to learn what it means to be a NATURAL BORN citizen of the USA and what the Constitution states perfectly clear about who is eligible for the Presidency of your country. But i agree, Obomber shouldn’t be judged on ethnicity, but on actions. He should be put to jail just for blatantly lying about everything he said in his run for the presidency, proven by his actions after winning. Jailed for life, him and his “wife”. Along with his Chicago buddies and wall street pimps.

Michael Gmirkin

Ohh, right, because no president ever has made “campaign promises” that never materialized after they were elected. I suppose by your logic we should retroactively impeach and impugn the reputation of each and every one of them for their “failure to keep their word.” Puh-lease. You’ll have to do better than that load of rubbish you’re spewing.

Unsilentminority

By your own comments, pretty much every president since carter should all be in prison, ESPECIALLY THE BUSHES!!

Michael Gmirkin

Keep in mind, since everyone seems to forget, that Obama was embroiled in that little kerfuffle over his ties to the pastor at the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, where he attended for, what a decade or two, got MARRIED, had his kids BAPTIZED. But, yeah, he’s a Muslim “because gregzimmerman007 says so.” That’ll just be Greg’s little secret fantasy.

Ya’ can’t have it both ways Greg. And clearly, the Obamas attended church on a regular basis there for, what, a decade or two, were supposedly close personal friends with the pastor (hence the controversy)? He can’t be crucified for being a Muslim AND crucified for attending Christian church for a decade or two. The stories don’t match. But, again, Greg, don’t let the truth ruin a good story. Keep livin’ in the little fantasy world you’ve concocted for yourself…

Cheyenne

Jesus please us, if I was as stupid as you I’d never advertise the fact on a public blog!

Fakjbf

um………..ok then. You had me up until the part about Obama, then yeah you sounded kinda crazy

This isn’t even worth responding to but just for the sake of putting another “birther” in their place I’ll go in.
I can’t comment to your “experts” on the birth certificate, I don’t watch FOX news,
but Obama’s mother was, until her death a U.S. citizen. Her son, Obama Barack Obama, could have been born on the moon, he is STILL an American citizen. Just as his opponent in the 2008 elections, John McCain, was born in Panama is a U.S. citizen.
So what if he was raised in the Muslim faith? What does that have to do with anything?

Jack Long

Why do you assume he is a liberal—hymmm

Will

Greg, did you ever stop to THINK for one minute about any of the information you just vomited on this page? If you were writing a paper that was to be published in a peer reviewed journal you would be expected to provide sources for your information, not just repeat what you have seen on Fox News or read from a biased source. WHICH, by the way, is plagiarism if your not citing sources for your presentation of someone’s thoughts and ideas. If you are going to put your name to it, then you are expected to own it and be responsible for the information that you are relaying. That is not a Liberal idea, THAT is an intelligent idea and the way to win an argument.

Will R Fights Jr.

I have no idea if you’re a racist, but if you believe that hokum you just spouted, you’ve proven you’re an idiot. Unquestionably.

Amanda Itiswhatitis Saunders

Okay you seem to be on some really good drugs right now…can you share them with the rest of us so we can visit your imaginary world.

Bignevermo

You are an idiot!! Obama was born in Hawaii and if any real experts could prove it was false he would not be president…two newspapers in Hawaii recorded his birth ya freak! To me ALL birthers are racist/.

Katie Noël

Oh come on, you know those two newspapers were part of the conspiracy that took place, before his birth, to make him ‘look’ like a natural born citizen, don’t you? I mean, it would be totally insane, to not go with the most far-our nonsense one can dream up, would it not?

Derek

bignevermo and katie…… Who the hell would ever make fake newspapers for a random child born, so that they could one day (decades later) have him become a president…. How you ever convinced yourselves of such idiocy, just astounds me. Also… making someone “look” like they are naturally born in America (i.e. Hawaii) …WHY WOULD THEY HAVE CHOSEN A CLEARLY AFRICAN PERSON??? Common sense…common sense.. common sense… (Quit making up stories, or spreading rumors)

Justaguy

They were being sarcastic Derek ….

Katie Noël

Derek, that’s pretty much what we’re saying… Obama WAS born in Hawaii and those people who are stating otherwise are full of crap. As you just said… WHY would they make fake newspapers? I’m sorry, my previous post was completely sarcastic, because I’m just fed up with “birthers” who keep trying to claim Obama is Kenyan when it’s been proved time and time again that he is American. I realise sarcasm doesn’t come across clearly in print.

Redmond Jennings

And that, my friends, is why the once great Republican Party finds itself in hoc to the Tea Party: trying to appeal to the Greg Zimmermans of the world which leaves little room for appealing to the American people.

Michael Gmirkin

You, sir, are an idiot. On multiple counts. Not least of all your invocation of your fairy god-man and, yes, your irrational, ridiculous, conspiracy theorist claims that have been debunked every which way from Sunday.

But, don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Friggin’ ideologues. I tell ya’! *Sigh* And what had any of your rant about Obama to do with the issue at hand. Way to troll there, dude. Now, kindly go on about your business.

TruthisPower

Kenya didn’t exist until 3 years after Obama’s birth…maybe you northers should look at all the facts before you believe the obviously photoshopped birth certificate.

TruthIsPower

Damn autocorrect, I meant BIRTHERS!

Fuckthisplanet

“Guys Im not racist but Obama is a Muslim terrorist, wasn’t born in america, his birth certificate is fake, and my name is a play on a white guy who killed a black guy for no reason and got away with it. Go team!”

1. You are a cancerous clone of whatever bigoted red-neck that spat you out of it’s breeding hole. That bigot also seemingly shoved you in front of a T.V. until you were old enough to cram their warped opinions down people’s throats, and let you watch fox news until your brain rotted out. You have absolutely no ability to form your own thought and literally reiterate everything you’ve heard from fox news.

2. You’re a hypocrite. “why do liberals everywhere try to make something that is a non-racial issue into a racial one?? obama is muslim because he’s black though and thats just cold hard facts proven by experts on the Onion”
Where to begin. Holy fuck… you’re awful.
First, i’d like to meet these “experts”…
Second,
You’re making it a race issue by bringing up Obama and saying he’s not born in America. Because he’s black.
Let me ask you something.
Did Clinton have to show his birth certificate? Did Bush? Then why is Obama the only president to have to do this publicly? I know having American citizenship and being born here is required, but all that birth certificate bullshit should be done privately and HAS for EVERY OTHER NON-BLACK PRESIDENT. What is not racist about anything you’ve said? It’s like you’re ignorant to everything in the world, including your own words… You’re like paula Dean “i aint know no better coz i just always been this way y’all! niggers!” You don’t know it’s wrong, so you think you’re right. Gods I wish your parents weren’t coked-out rednecks and actually taught you how to treat others instead of breeding another generation of offenders to The Golden Rule…”treat others how you’d want to be treated.” But no. This was your parents. “treat others how you’d want to be treated. unless they’re Muslim. Jewish, black, a woman, or different from you in any way. then you have the automatic right to say whatever the fuck you want!”

3. You are, in fact, a racist. Everything about everything you just said makes me believe you’re a racist. Just because he’s black doesnt mean he’s not born in America, I mean for Christ’s sake, what in the heavens is wrong with you? You racists DEMANDED to see his birth certificate and when you finally got him to show it you’re all just like
“yeah we see we were wrong.. but wow. thats kind of embarrassing so.. NOBODY LOOK! ITS FAKE!! FOX NEWS SAYS SO”
You, and everyone like you, are the sole reason this planet is going to hell. But I guess you and Zimmerman can have fun in hell together.
But in case there is SOME miniature chance that you can be saved, I leave you with this:
Stop judging others before you know them. Stop judging others by the color of their skin.And stop posting things online. Just stop that all together. Whoever gave you a keyboard needs to be slapped with a fish.

Justaguy

So you’re predjudous against ” red-necks “. For someone speaking out against someone else for racism, you’re doing a great job of perpetrating the same hate, just for a different group of people. It’s too bad really, a lot of the things you said there make sense, but starting an anti racism comment with a racist comment is counter productive.

Diaconos

You forgot one, Nazi, they will often call you that too.

ThatGuy01

No, you’re a racist. I know you think you aren’t, but you are.

Justaguy

By making blanket accusations based on peoples’ religion, ethnicity, or even political background, you ARE promoting the idea that you are a racist. Quote “why do liberals everywhere ..” “When I call obama a muslim, EVERY LIBERAL …” ” For the liberals that can’t handle the truth …”

Sounds like your animosity is mostly predjudous against liberals. In one statement you made several predjudous statements, so is it really that hard to understand that people will go by that and consider your insults to a religious / ethnic group to be predjudous as well?

Cheyenne

I don’t know about liar, bigamist, radical, fascist and non-bipartisan, but you sure as hell are STUPID.

(Note that I omitted racist, irrational and ridiculous, all of which apply to you.)

Rene Arizona Craig

YOU guys are craaazzzzzyyyy man!!

dngemini

Lol, people convert to Judaism as adults. I know a few. What are you talking about?

anti-anti

making shit up, dude.

jenisedai

They convert to the Jewish religion, not the Jewish ethnicity. Two different things sharing the same name.

Kate Ginsberg

Actually

Michael Gmirkin

Exactly. At least someone “gets it.” ^_^

Michael Gmirkin

Sorry, but HEBREW is an ETHNIC identity. Being JEWISH (practicing JUDAISM) is a RELIGIOUS identity.

The two are not synonymous. Anyone can adopt Judaism (a set of ideas). Not just anyone can be Hebrew (you can’t “adopt” genetics).

Yeah?

Just saying.

Not all Jews are Hebrew. Not all Hebrews are Jewish.

Not all Christians are Caucasian. Not all Caucasians are Christian.

Not all Middle Eastern men are Islamic. Not all Muslims are Middle Eastern.

Let’s not mix up religion with race. They’re not synonymous.

Jason A. Quest

Not everyone uses your terminology, Michael.

Ned Carter

Using words incorrectly doesn’t make it ok.

Derek

everyone should… it is set in stone by now… in dictionaries and such… Maybe you are uneducated.
Everyone who knows what they are talking about, DOES use the CORRECT terminology…

sick of the stupidity in here

everyone who knows what they are talking about? what about the original poster who IS a non-practicing jew? dumass its THE COMMON terminology

dngemini

Again, this isn’t entirely true. Hebrew (a biblical term) people are Semitic. Semites are Arabs. Europeans who practice Judaism are not Arabs, therefore not Semites. The Europeans that practiced Judaism that were given Palestine (now called Israel) are not Arabs. Some of the folks who speak Hebrew, such as Black Israelites from, say, Ethiopia, are not welcome in Israel. They have more right to the region than than Europeans who practice a religion.

AriellaHero

Dngemini, you’re wrong. The area was renamed Palestine by the Romans as an insult to the Jews who lived there. And yes they were Jews living in Judah one of the two Jewish nations that existed after the Jewish Civil War. The original Israel was occupied much earlier. Second, Arabs weren’t in Israel till after the Prophet Mohammad died and the Jihad was declared. Third, Ethiopian Jews were RESCUED by Israel. Look up Operation Moses, Operation Joshua, and Operation Solomon in which Jewish Ethiopian refugees were brought out of Ethiopia. In fact the last one cost the Israeli government 21 million dollars to bring them home. Yes, Ethiopian Jews aren’t welcome in Israel… NOT

dngemini

Dear, you’re wrong and when you’re ready to have a dialogue that’s based in actual FACT and not Jewish biblical propaganda, we can chat. Until then, you’re free to continue with your views that are rooted in persecuted Jewish mythomania.

Eric Cromwell

google “define jew” and marvel at how every dictionaries include a definition that uses ethnicity and heritage as a defining component.

3
: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people

AriellaHero

Judaism is not a race, but it DID sprout an ethnic identity because of the persecution and separation from what was the “main stream society” at the time. This is evidenced in the development of Sephardic and Ashkenazic ethnic groups. They have their own music, stories, foods, rituals, that are outside the religious aspect but are definitively Jewish…

JEFF_777

Obviously YOU should learn a little more before you open YOUR mouth! What about Sammy Davis Jr. the black actor that became a Jew? Or the barbaric Kazar Empire that took Judaism as their religion? Actually, MOST so-called Jews in so-called Israel today don`t have a drop of Semitic blood in their body!

AriellaHero

Jeff, cut the “so called Jews”, who the hell are you or anyone else to tell Jews who WE are. There was a study recently that found about 40% of Ashkenazic Jews can trace their genetics back to three women in the Levant in IIRC the 4th century BCE. I’m willing to bet it’s even higher for Sephardi Jews. The Ashkenazic study was done by Doctor Doron Behar et al, in the Journal of Human Genetic March 2006, It was called The Matrilineal Ancestory of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event.

Avela KumoKitsune

“When Muslims I know talk about being non-religious they are stating
simply that they hail from a predominately Muslim country. THe way I
hail from a predominantly christian one.” So, I suppose that I am a non-religious christian since I do not believe but grew up surrounded and encased by those beliefs?

Derek

No.. as an American, you were raised around most religions.. Your friends and family inadvertently pushed you towards their beliefs. Most American Christians, are “non-religious”. You are just American.. people need to stop trying to tack on an added “Actually, I fear god, but I don’t go to church, non-religious babble..” What you basically said in your post, is that you consider yourself a christian, even though you don’t believe.. JUST because you were raised around it??? That is a HORRIBLE reason follow anything.

Derek

You have no idea what you speak of…. “hailing from a predominantly Christian country” ??? Christians killed anyone who did not convert, and took their land…. So maybe YOU should do more research before opening your mouth. Just because you were born in a certain country.. does NOT make you automatically religious to that country/ or at all, for that matter. So just because someone lives in America, we should call them non religious Christians??? …Dont you think that people are much more diverse than that??
Please stop being an ignorant fool.

Justaguy

A rare nugget of soulful wisdom. Well said.

Rage of Chaos

Claiming a religion as your ethnicity, especially when one doesn’t practice that religion is ignorant in of itself. Someone who labels themselves as Muslim, simply because of their country and not by practice is just lying to themselves. Even being a Jew by ethnic identity alone is nothing more than a fabrication by the ignorance of the mainstream. Regardless if you practice a religion, your ethnicity should always be solely based on the country of origin in of itself.

The same applies to any ethnic labels based on ignorant observations. Drives me up the wall every time I hear anyone who labels speaking Spanish as speaking Mexican.

Sam Zuckerman

Judaism actually at its fundamentals is not a religion but is more a culture. Judaism is directly connected with the ancient tribal lands of modern day israel, as the society branches out from those colonies after they were removed and displaced by the romans. Being Jewish is something that has become more of a religion since the original tribes of Israel were destroyed, to remember where they came from it adapted into a more religious format HOWEVER the origin of Jews was as a nation, traveling through the desert and conquering territory after territory until the nation of Israel was complete (and the romans took it all). to be a non religious Jew means we might nnot buy into the religious aspect of it. however we dont forsake the values and lessons learned from our judaism. just because someone believes in an invisible man in the sky doesnt mean that the message of be a good person is tainted with crazy.

anti-anti

you’ve gone to the “temple”, that’s what they taught you, its obvious. “Ancient tribal lands”, “modern day israel”, such cool terms, almost sound believable. lol “the origin of Jews was as a nation, traveling through the desert and
conquering territory after territory until the nation of Israel was
complete (and the romans took it all)” Dude… you are SO FULL OF SHIT! You can’t really believe these fairy tales. The Jews, USURY creators, conquered lands? with what? Snots? My God… as for your “we dont forsake the values and lessons learned from our judaism”, i see what Values exist in Judaism by witnessing first hand the Israeli crimes in PALESTINE. None of that land is theirs, it’s just occupied territory. And all that “ancient, tribal, stargazing” shit were all stolen attributes of the Palestinian people. The real and actual Semites. hahahahahaha, values! haaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha. Jewish actual values are portrayed in Hollywood. Whatever values are projected through Hollywood, are the ones rooted deep inside those who want to globalize those “values”. But, miraculously, all the leading characters in scripts are not Jewish… It’s usually Christians or Muslims being portrayed as drug dealers, as pedophiles, as psychopathic sociopathic lunatics. But the writers, actors, producers and distributors are Jewish (about 95%). You do the math, man of Jewish values. Whatever that means.

p.s. A, whatever the Jewish people are, religion or culture that calls people of different faith/culture as goy, is not one coming (or going) from a good place. We are the chosen people of god and the rest are barbarians. So, let’s lend them with interest and take over shit. lol so funny so goddamn funny

Demona

And the stupidity continues from you. Go to history class in college instead of most high schools where you can sleep your way to a B and pass.

Judaism and their “cultural identity” are just as concocted as the Jesus myth, the Mohammed myth, the Buddha myth, etc., etc.

Let’s top spouting all these concocted nonsense stories and join the REAL WORLD…

Uri

Jews have been an ethnicity, and not just a religion, for a long time. The people of the Kingdom of Judea who worshiped so-called “false gods”, back in the days of the First Temple, were still Jewish. So were the Hellenized Jews in the days of the 2nd temple and after.

And no, being a non-religious Muslim is not a oxymoron. I haven’t met any, but I did meet many non-religious Christians: people who don’t believe in God, but do celebrate Christmas and Easter out of a sense of tradition, heritage, for reasons of social cohesion, etc. Some of them consider God a useful metaphor — for universal order, or for the human sense of morality — and believe in many (not all) of the things Jesus stood for, even if they don’t believe he was anything more than an ordinary Jew with an extraordinary vision.

And it’s the same for me as a non-religious Jew. I’m not sure, for instance, whether the Exodus actually happened or if Moses really existed — but it’s still a powerful myth, and I celebrate Passover both as a continuation of generations of family and national tradition, and to celebrate the positive ideals embodied in that myth.

anti-anti

Hellenized Jews? Are you fucking kidding me? LOL are you trying to say that the Jews are even more ancient than the Greeks? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Tom P

Uh, dude? Hellenistic Judaism was a real thing. Look it up. You kind of embarrassed yourself with that remark, whether you know it or not.

Tom P

Religion: You’re doing it right. And I say that as a religious Christian who appreciates all sorts of religions (and other moral communities, including the secular ones).

Tony Yarbrough

Muslim is not an ethnicity. Christian is not an ethnicity. (Catholicism is almost an exception to this, but not quite.) These are both belief systems and nothing more. Judaism is and has always been both a belief system AND an ethnicity. If you are born a Jew, you will always be a Jew regardless of your beliefs. There are a number of atheists, Christians, Buddhists, etc. who are ethnically Jewish.

Source: Ten different Religious Studies classes at a secular institution of higher learning.

Also: “and sperm if you’re a child, especially a boy.” . . . Seriously?! You’re not even here to make a valid point, are you? Do you seriously have nothing better to do than try to piss off complete strangers? . . . I’ll let you know what retirement tastes like in a few decades when you’re stuck living off of Social Insecurity b/c you couldn’t be bothered to do anything worthwhile with your time.

anti-anti

lol, you’re so wrong in all possible levels… But that’s alright! btw, im self sufficient in terms of housing, food, warmth and water. I produce everything on my own. What about you? Has uncle sam been good to ya?

ohrilez

do you also produce your own internet connection, jackass? or are you stealing your neighbors’?

anti-anti

no, ass face, i pay for my internet connection (satellite). But the internet is not crucial for my survival, only for my entertainment. Plus, i don’t have any neighbours. My house is in the middle of my 12 acre land, don’t know of any antenna that can get such a reception from a neighbour or something. Good call, though, brainiac. Be a hater for a reason, not because you wish you didn’t pay bills too.

Jess

No you’re not. You’re connected to a power grid that we all pay for.

anti-anti

it’s called “The SUN” and “The Wind”… ya know? Plus, i make my own biofuel. hahahahahahahahaa “that we all pay for”. LOL, you’re not paying anything for me, Jessass.

Kate Ginsberg

Why must we attack each other?? It has been discovered
That there is “Jewish DNA ” Works for me as an Atheist Jew. But as such I do not believe in tearing dowelieve in God As long as they don’t hassle others about it. I believe in freedom!

Jessica

The problem is we have a couple of major trolls in here and it’s really, really hard not to get angry and argue with them. I never understood trying to tear everyone else down for what they believe. And, yeah, the fact that there is Jewish DNA works for me as well, and the fact that everyone I know who identifies as ethnically Jewish can trace their Jewish ancestors back more generations than I can my Heinz 57 ancestors. Heck, I can’t even tell you which tribes my various Native American ancestors came from and I have the genetic tests that prove I’m 12% Native American.

Anyway, as an atheist, I HATE seeing atheists being insensitive jerks about other peoples’ belief systems. We don’t like it when people try to convert us, why do the same thing to other people? That is the WHOLE POINT of this article.

Justaguy

Indeed, the whole ” they do it to us so let’s do it to them” is the same kind of schoolyard foolery we were supposed to have grown out of by the time we hit junior high.

Derek

I dont even want to start with your comment…. Try reading all the previous comments, so I dont have to correct you.. (Ive never heard of a passive, hippie, athiest jew..) Try agnostic …..and a book.

Justaguy

All humans across the world share 99.9% of the same genetic code. it’s the 1 tenth of 1% that makes the wide diversity that is humankind. By holding on to the idea that people are so different on a genetic level, is to promote dissention. So , 10 molecules out of tens of thousands indicates whether someone is ” truely jewish” or not? Kind of puts the differences (or virtual lack thereof) into perspective doesn’t it?

Derek

You pretty much just dropped to the same low level of the person you were shaming… As a complete stranger.. you should NEVER be pissed off by a random comment from some person who you do not know. Letting such little things affect you, makes me question you, too. Also, it matters little that you attended 10 religious studies classes.. Because you took them all at the same place…. Broaden your horizons, and don’t be a hypocrite.

Tony Yarbrough

I will finish my bachelor’s this next Spring. After that I will be going somewhere else.

As an afterthought: I do think it kinda matters. My point was that I’m not just some guy talking. I’m a religious studies major–someone who has studied enough to know what he’s talking about.

anarchduke

Jews have been an ethnic identity as well as a religion for several thousand years.

anti-anti

says who? The Jews say so, not the (actually) ancient scriptures. Fraud is great, so easy for the masters of the craft. I don’t expect you to understand anything.

dngemini

Thank you, but I think this is like spitting into the wind. The Jewish propaganda is quite powerful as you are aware. It’s impossible for folks raised in the jewish religion to break up with it, so even when they don’t practice, they still call themselves jews. I’ve met many jews that when I ask what is their heritage they respond Jewish. I say no, that’s a religion, where do your ancestors come from? They often don’t know. That’s very sad.

Derek

Jewish, Hebrew, Israeli…..Look these up in a book sometime… Tell your athiest jewish friends that they should learn who they are before claiming another title, such as athiest. …ignorant..

Sarah Michelle

……yeahhhh Jews are an ethnic group…. Not every ethnic Jew is Jewish…. Not Every religious Jew is ethnically Jewish…. lol….. lol You got all mad … lol

anti-anti

yeah, so mad.. lol, i’ve been laughing my ass off all afternoon. I won’t be surprised if i start getting hatemail by the ADL or something. LOL. There is no Jewish ETHNOS (race, where the word ethnicity comes from). Sawry

getaneducation

Judaism is also a culture and race, in addition to being a religion, you uninformed bigot.

jenisedai

When is Judaism an Ethnic identity? Like…forever. Just like the Kurds, Mohawk tribe, etc.- they may look like others but they’re ethnically distinct even without including religion. And it’s been that way since the tribe of Israel was first created back in BCE times.

anti-anti

looooool, the “tribe of israel”… Israel is a state of mind, dude. Plus, the Jews appeared only around 400 BC. That’s nothing, they (you) are new, just measly 2500 years back. Nothing. And it is only a religion. Ask someone older than 70 years old, he/she might know how things were before the Israeli propaganda took over the world. Or open a book, dated before the 20th century. hahahahahaha i love this shit, the world is full of ignorant motherfuckers and that’s why it’s all going to SHIT.

Demona

He was born to a Jewish mother and is there for automatically a Jew. Ignorance is curable, but apparently stoopid just goes to the bone.

Cranios

It’s way more complicated than that.

Jerry Callender

Being a Jew, and being Jewish are two different things. AND, being American, English, French or Spanish is a NATIONAL identity – NOT ethnic, as is being a Jew.
You have much to learn.

Jessica

Because Judaism is passed down from mother to child, it actually IS an ethnic identity as well as a religion. I have lots of atheist Jewish friends.

SilverRivers

Actually being a Jew is a specific race… DNA speaking. Look it up.

Zen

no actually jews are a race AND a religion they originally come from the same tribe.
however you no longer necessarily need to be ‘jewish’ to become a jew but there is ‘jewish blood’ or jewish genetics. It is a race of people.
Muslims on the other hand have no identifying race

LeTronique

ugh…. me too.

whitecrane123

with chocolate?

thejoker421

How can you be a non religious Jew? Isn’t it only a religion.. It is not a race.

Carol B. Hillman

Well – Judaism IS a religion but also a cultural thing – similar to growing up Catholic I imagine. Believe me, I am not the only person who describes herself/himself as a secular Jew.

AriellaHero

Look up humanistic Judaism

Lindsay Penner

Please explain how you are a non-religious Jew… Jew is not a race, it’s a religion… Please address this, cause it’s confusing.

Robert

Non Religeous Jew? Judaism is a religion. You’re either Jewish or Non-religious. you can’t be both, that’s an oxymoron.

Tom P

Troll!

AriellaHero

Are you Jewish to make that judgment? And look up humanistic Judaism while you’re at it.

Scott VudderHütz Rodger

may i ask you what a non religious jew is “?

RacheeRoo

I’m also a non-religious Jew, and if there were a religion that involved 300 foot peanut butter eggs, I’d totally convert.

john

Not trolling but curious as to how you can be a “non – religious Jew?

lefou

where do I deposit my money for this peanut butter salvation?

Macca

Non-religious Jew? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?

Carol B. Hillman

I thought I explained this but (sigh) — Yes, Judaism is a religion but – as with other religions (such as Catholicism), has a definite cultural component. The cultural Judaism is especially strong because Jews have been segregated throughout history so developed strong lifestyle traditions. I happen to know many people who identify as secular Jews.

Geoffrey Glover

Maybe if it is covered with chocolate…

Kev Ratcliffe

Where????!

Thompsonnomore

Then you are not jewish because jew/hebrew is a religion, not a race. Also the main reason why Anti-Semitism is in itself a flawed concept.

James Nimmons

in other areas like, where I am. Religion is foisted on the unwilling constantly..

Excidium

That’s for sure. It’s inescapable anywhere in the U.S. Amen. er, I mean in my religion it’s: “Ramon”

jonathan

Eh, I don’t know. Someone that buck shit crazy just may be a “danger” to others. To sound political acceptable.

Hamish

Glad to know that ‘…as a Canadian, religion is very minimally invasive in (your) life…’ That’s great! However, here in the U.S., organized religion has made idiots out of the citizenry. At last polling, 46% of the population thought Evolutionary Theory is ‘just a theory, and wrong, the earth being only 6,000 years old’ and The Big Bang is a T.V show. Because of the power of organised superstition in my country, we have become a nation of illiterates. Great huh?

Jamie Mattox

you make me giggle with that one i am Wiccan but was raised christian

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

I think just chalking everything bad up to religion is absurdly simplistic. The people in your country who have a chokehold on things do not want an educated populace with personal autonomy (which they are getting).

Religion is a tool they use for control, and it’s only what people make it. Millions DON’T make it into a tool for oppression. Millions do. The commonality there seems to be less “people believe a god is telling them to force others to do this” and more just “people.”

Hamish

You missed an important point. The reason American education is so disastrously bad is because of the influence organized religion has over the educational process in America. There can be no other reason for the silly way our population conceptualizes how the universe works. We had nine G.O.P. candidates for President who raised their hands on national T.V. indicating they didn’t accept Evolutionary Theory. The one G.O.P. candidate who did have a background in science was tossed out of the running very early by the idiots among the populace. No person can be even nominated for a serious office in the U.S. who doesn’t at least imitate a belief in a sky daddy, whatever they really think. This problem will only get worse until superstitious Americans recognise the damage they are doing, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. So, the United States, the most powerful and heavily armed country on Earth by far, is also the least educated among western nations. That is dangerous for the world.

Don McLaughlin

Amen….err …I mean …well…you know…

Paige Christine Harrington

Fuck.

That chilled me to my core. Well said.

…fuck.

Jay Jones

And that completely contradicts the separation of church and state. I dont care if they dress up in womens clothes, cover themselves in honey and pray to a Star Wars action figure. As long as they’re doing right by the people, thats all that matters.

Dennie

Texas Constitution: Article 1

Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS.

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any
office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded
from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he
acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

anti-anti

my Supreme Being is The Dude.
“provided he acknowledges the existence of a supreme being”. Now, that’s idiotic, don’t you think? “No religious test” means exactly what it says. But then, the part “provided he acknowledges” comes exactly as a religious test, don’t you agree?

Derek

Also, we pay our teachers worse than our trash men… In some countries, teachers are paid like doctors…
I know I would be happier knowing I was taught by someone who cared more, and had the proper funding to actually teach..

My great teachers used out of pocket funding for us..
My awful teachers put us in corners alone and left early.
Our text books continue to stay out dated in most states

JEEEEZZZUUUSS CHRIST MAGGIE, YOU ARE JUST AS BIG A HYPOCRITE AS THOSE CHRISTIANS.

gforce

Is the peanut butter egg covered in chocolate? Your ideas intrigue me, and I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Jaamoose

Maggie, as a Canadian, you don’t have nearly the same kind of experience with right wing religion that exists south of the border. What if your Lizard Jesus believers were sure that their faith was the basis for your country’s constitution, and laws, and worked to infuse that into politics? In principle, we could say what you do about any group. Why the analogy might seem a bit strong, it works – I’m sure there were people in the south who said “those guys in the pointy wihite hats can do what they want, as long as it doesn’t bug me,” or Germany in 1933 -”those goose-stepping kids are just having harmless fun, as long as it doesn’t bug me.”

anarchduke

Lizard Jesus is coming to kill all the people with peanut allergies!

Roberto

I want a 300 foot peanut butter egg!

Mary

You were fine until you had to get the little dig in. Lizard Jesus?

David Hamilton

I would love if a person waiting for reptile Jesus bugged me, they must have some insane stories and views of the world to share, right?
lol

Michael M

Maggie, the problem is that they DO bug us.
This stupidity with the $10 bill isn’t uncommon.
They push their religious agenda in politics, they try to squelch science for mythology in our children’s schools, they come door to door and tell anyone who answers that they are going to hell if they don’t believe, they post billboards, hand out leaflets, set up booths in public places, put things on my car, house, mailbox, they tell our children that their loving god will make them suffer if they don’t believe in the Magic Zombie, they hope for an Armageddon so anyone who believes differently will suffer while they bask in glory, they wage wars, they discriminate against others, it goes on and on and on…

Perhaps you should grow up and wake up and look at the damage they do all around us. There is a reason why predominately Atheist societies tend to be better places to live and generally have a higher standard of life.

JEFF_777

You ALMOST sounded like you were sincere until the Lizard comment! Very sad!

Don’t_be_a_hypocrite

And, welcome back to your old self again.

Beardy Pantaloons

That makes a big difference, Maggie. As Americans, religion is *extremely* invasive in our lives. Many atheists in the US understandably feel the need to attack. It’s not about ‘growing up’. For us, it’s about how much creationism we want our kids taught in school, and how many wars we want our leaders to start because they believe god is on their side.

You had me at “300 foot peanut butter egg”. Ready to convert from Buddhism…tell me more about your savior…Lizard Jesus.

Seth Semons

I’d worship anyone who brought be a 300 foot peanut butter egg.

TheBorc

Yeah, thing is from the perspective of many Aethesits, particularly from the south end of the U.S. they do bug.
After a lifetime of being told that I am a sub human, that I am untrustworthy and evil…. because I don’t subscribe to Christianity… well… you can’t blame people for becoming cynical and bitter.

Frost

” It’s no skin off my back if you’re positive Lizard Jesus is coming for you tomorrow with a 300 foot peanut butter egg, as long as you don’t bug me.”

^^^^ This has got to be the best thing ive heard all week. all month. all year. LMFAO. creative.

Remon

If your lizard Jesus were coming tomorrow with a 300 foot cadburry egg, I might be tempted to convert.

Proventus

I LOVE those. I’d take a bite.

Robert Barr

You don’t have to believe in GOD but please be respectfull of those of us that choose too believe.

Robert Barr

Also if you insist on being so immature the least you can do would be to get the belief correct.

J Gentile

And Tom then she goes and does it… bahaha but it was nice of you to compliment her.

tipper3

As a Canadian Maggie do us a favor and take back Ted Cruz.

Marta Santana

lol

Nigel Khugen Lilyblade

Like you said Maggie, it’s not quite so invasive where you live, so of course your going to be more neutral. Where I live, these people hassle me everywhere, even at school and where I work, so it becomes much more difficult to be neutral and I tend to get aggravated enough to the point where I become quite a jerk about it. I’m not saying that it is the best way to handle it, however, I would say it is human nature to eventually get angry when pestered a number of times.

Knux Kitsune

Dear fellow considerate people,

Keep being awesome.

Thank you,

A person who tries to be open-minded of other peoples beliefs.

Chad Wegner

Problem is they bug the rest of the world and mess with things where religion — of any sort — have no business being involved in.

Bobby O’Dell

Maggie has just turned back into an idiot.

Jessica MissChievous Lund

Ha!

http://youtube.com/TheSeanWardShow Sean Ward

Yeah, tell me more about this peanut butter egg….

blockface

Canada… ouch…

Katerina

Amen Tom! As an atheist myself, I see crap flying in both directions, and then sometimes I see consideration being given in both directions. Despite what we believe, some people like to be mad, and some like to be loving, deities or no deities. I say no matter what we believe, we should still be nice to each other.

omjho

How close could these friends be to you if your religion tells you that they’re going to burn for eternity unless they’re saved? And aren’t you supposed to try to convert them? Or are you one of those buffet theists–take the parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest? You wonder why so many atheists seem like A holes to you? Because we see so much pious hypocrisy. from your side.

Jamie Mattox

Judge not lest you be Judged. you can only try so much to convert someone before you lose the from your life altogether sometimes it is just best to Love thy neighbor as you love thy self and be done with it.

Tom P

I don’t believe in hell. (Not even sure I believe in heaven.) I also don’t believe that Christianity has all the answers. (For that matter, I don’t think anyone has all the answers.) That’s not why I’m a Christian. How about you quit assuming you know what’s going on in my head? K?

Dandru

The fact that four people voted that comment down means there are four stupid, hateful dipshits in this world.

Tom P

Thanks, Dandru. I also looked at the down votes and wondered what those people found to be wrong with what I said.

Keith Pilgreen

As a southern born and raised Atheist, I am tired of being nice to “christians” also and the “High Road” has gotten me nothing but out numbered in fights (because I was labeled as a Satanist, he doesn’t exist either) that I thought could be solved with words. It is time for christians to crawl back into a hole and quit wagging their religion in every one’s face like Mr Peepers in Central Park. We are tired of your more crazy sects pushing their beliefs onto our government (it’s marriage, not gay marriage) and we have had enough of them killing Dr to save unborn babies (If you’re so pro life, try feeding hungry kids or stop the wars past and present Pres. started and perpetuated). I am an Atheist and proud to say, “Keep your Sky God to yourselves and out of our government!”

Tom P

Keith, you know fuck-all about me. I’m a liberal Episcopalian (think Gene Robinson and Desmond Tutu) who supports marriage equality as well as the right to safe and legal abortions. Sorry you’ve apparently had a shitty life and feel the need to prejudge a vast and diverse group of people because of the smaller sample of Christians you’ve encountered in the South. But I’m really through taking shit from ignorant people who assume they know stuff about me just because I’m a Christian. I’m sorry that being nice to Christians is so tiring for you. Apparently being a judgmental asshole is a lot easier for you, then. Congratulations. You’ve become what you hate. Cheers!

Jay Jones

The worst part is you’re a Liberal. I dont care what religion you are. Being a Libertard is the worst thing you can be.

Derek

not too sure you should speak for all atheists…
” We are tired of your more crazy sects pushing their beliefs onto our government (it’s marriage, not gay marriage) and we have had enough of them killing Dr to save unborn babies …”
“Keep your Sky God to yourselves and out of our government!” …your Government is based off of “In God We Trust” “ONE NATION UNDER GOD”

You sir… are a contradictory asshole. Good day.

Ryan Searfoss

You believe ridiculous things that makes people question your intelligence and your ability to meaningfully contribute to society. I’m sorry if people pointing that out makes you feel bad. I think the real asshole is the person who holds back the progress of our entire civilization with their weak-minded superstitions, but hey, that’s just me.

Tom P

Troll.

William R. James

I’m atheist and most of my friends are Christian. I understand their desire to convert me, they honestly believe they’d be helping me. But they are my friends because they are decent and respectful, they respect the fact that I don’t believe.

karlleuba

Tom, pretty simple really. The big Picture includes 7 billion unique individuals. The instant a category is created or invented, that excludes even one of those 7 billion, the seed of strife and discontent is sown.

Chad

Tom on the outside that would seem cool but I think you just contradicted yourself of you are a Christian. In Christianity it is important to try to covert people because Christians believe that those who forsake the Holy Spirit go to hell. So what you are really saying is that your all set and you are just going to let other ppl rock and go to hell even though you love them. If I was a Christian, I would see that pretty fucked up. So now I ask this. If you don’t follow the rules to your religion why be a Christian? What the athesist person put was rude and wrong but he or she puts up a better point then what you did (with do all respect.)

Tom P

Chad, I appreciate your sincere question, but it seems to based on a fairly narrow picture of what it means to be a Christian. I’m not an evangelical Christian interested in converting people. And neither are the people in my Episcopal tradition. (I don’t even believe in hell.) My theological motto is: “Orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy, all the time.” In lay terms, that just means that doing the right thing is more important than believing the right thing. Jesus makes this point in his parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25: 31-46). Whether you’re feeding a hungry person because you think Jesus told you to or because you were just raised to value kindness and caring (outside of any religious tradition), that person is no less fed. And in the parable of the sheep and goats, it’s obvious that it doesn’t really matter to Jesus why you do it. Just do it.

If Tom thought like you… (*all christian/catholics for that matter) Then we would just have a group of angry, scared people attacking defenseless people speaking their minds… Like the story of Pontius Pilate, and Jesus.
God said love all men equally.. forgive often.. accept all.

Howard Benson

If you are not interested in and concerned about your atheist friends becoming Christians then you are not really a Christian at all.

Tom P

Oh no! Howard Benson says I’m not really a Christian! Dear God, that’s cut me to my core! How can I possibly be true to my faith in a mature way if Howard Benson has pronounced me to be “not really a Christian at all” based on his half-baked understanding of the diversity within the worldwide Church? Apparently since I don’t fit within in the mold of Howard Benson’s limited exposure to evangelicalism, then that must mean that my mainline non-evangelical Christianity (shared with millions across the US and tens of million more across the world) is somehow false!

Kay Foley

This thread is based on the topic AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. You have a problem with that, look in the mirror and give human beings the right to believe what they will believe. Sheesh, grow UP!

Tom P

Hi Kay. Welcome to the internet. We’re happy you could join us. Feel free to look around and familiarize yourself with the environment. You’ve navigated to what we call a Comment Thread. Internet Comment Threads are fascinating places that allow people from all over to interact and discuss issues of interest to them. Frequently these threads branch out into numerous topics, as the discussion unfolds. Sometimes people aren’t interested in the topics being addressed by other people. In these instances, we recommend that such uninterested persons use what’s called a Scroll Bar to scroll their screen up and down the Comment Thread to find a topic of greater interest to them.

In all seriousness, though, I don’t understand why your comment was in response to me. I simply praised an atheist for her splendid response to an asshole. In my comment, I mentioned that I’m a Christian, and I love my atheist friends partially because they don’t share my beliefs. I don’t want to change them at all. I love them just the way they are.

Derek

ok so based on what you just said, (and the reason for the page topic) YOU too have been off topic… Have YOU looked in the mirror to realize that you too are attacking someone (wrongly I might add), This page is about religious people becoming rude on behalf of pushing their religions…… It doesnt matter if you are islam or athiest…YOU DO NOT LEAVE A FAKE TIP FOR YOUR SERVER. That is not only rude, it makes them seem far more like a religious person…. You can spread the word of god, but you cant leave a 15% tip for someone who just helped you? …EVEN ATHIESTS LEAVE TIPS…. shit, the WORST people Ive known of, even leave tips. Rude is still rude.. kinda like your comment to Tom… and mine to you. Get it yet?

Stan H.

Dear Everyone,

Be excellent to one another.

Sincerely,
Bill S. Preston Esquire & Ted Theodore Logan

AnotherAtheist

ty Tom nice to see that ppl out there dont want to change who anyone is. its rather nice to be myself

C P

godaholic loser

Tom P

Trollolololo-lololololo-lolololololo!

JEFF_777

Really? You’re a Christian? It’s hard to tell with the curse words in there!

Tom P

Who the fuck says that Christians can’t curse? I’m an Episcopalian, not a Puritan, Jeff.

JEFF_777

You’re kidding right? God said Christians SHOULDN’T be perverse or use vulgarity! It’s common sense Tom! Curse words are used to emphasize vulgarity, anger, negativity etc. That’s one of the reasons we USED to not swear in front of children or women or why it wasn’t allowed on the airwaves but as scripture says, in the last days, evil will be accepted as good and good as evil. Christians should be humble. Think about it Tom, would you talk like that to Jesus?

Tom P

Thanks for your concern, Jeff. But I don’t share it. So I don’t need to hear any more about it. Peace!

Derek

Caught up in trivial little details that change nothing… you think because words are spoken that it will change YOUR mind?? I know children who hear swearing and still choose not to… Common sense and wisdom are not just for adults. You have stretched the whole idea of the bible… again another person taking it far too literal. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK SPEAKING A SWEAR WORD WILL DAMN YOU TO ETERNAL HELL FIRE?? NO! KILLING, RAPING, AND RUINING LIFE ARE REASONS FOR PUNISHMENT WHEN BEING JUDGED FOR (EVIL) ACTIONS… “USED to not swear” …. People USED to crucify people… people USED to do many things!

“God said Christians SHOULDN’T be perverse or use vulgarity! It’s common sense Tom!”
-So it is alright for priests to RAPE CHILDREN?????!!!

http://dailyoftheday.com/ Nona Raybern

A-fucking-men to that, amirite?

Heather Gray

If you are a Christian and have no interest in converting others, you must not believe in your bible very much. I am an atheist. I do not like the Christian faith for MANY reasons. It’s harmful to society. But don’t make yourself look bad by saying you have atheist friends but no desire to convert them. It means either you do not believe your bible, which promises everlasting torture for your non-believing friends or you just don’t care,.. I don’t understand how you people can all believe so many different things out of one book. Oh yea, because it’s full of contradictions. When babies stop dying because christian parents are killing them by using “biblical discipline”, when I can marry my girlfriend because our laws are no longer based on stone age lies, when these harmful and ignorant teachings stop influencing our young people… That’s when I’ll stop my useless assholery….

Tom P

Heather, I’m really sorry for all the shit that’s happened to you (and your girlfriend). Really. For what it’s worth, my wife and I attend an Episcopal church in Atlanta where two out of our three priests are gay (and they’re legally married to their same-sex spouses). The first time we attended this church, shortly after we moved to Atlanta, we noticed that half the congregation were wearing rainbow-colored t-shirts. Then during announcements, the priest announced that there would be a caravan heading down to the Pride Fest to celebrate after the worship service. My wife and I looked at each other and agreed that we had found our new church home. We are not evangelicals, and we don’t believe in everlasting torture. We take the Bible much too seriously to take it literally. Biblical literalists are just intellectually immature.

Derek

He JUST quoted the bible… ignorant.

Derek

and btw.. the bible is NOT meant to be a literal translation… THAT is the problem with most bible readers. The children being affected are the offspring of those irrational bible readers.. I have no idea why YOUR children would be harmed by that.. If you are any kind of good parent, it is your job to filter such things.
A small amount of you needs to accept that religion is everywhere and will never go away…. so instead of complaining, find a common ground, and try understanding before judging… You never proved that your parenting methods are any less harmful.

Amanda Midkiff

Thank you for being a rational and kind person.
It’s refreshing to see kind people are still on the internet.

Kimberly Azar

to be a Christian you are suppose to share and show others that there IS a one true God, not just let them go to hell for rejecting HIM

Tom P

Meh. Orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy all the time. All the time! Doing
the right thing is always more important than believing the right
thing.

poopdollar

What is this? Sanity? This can’t be allowed on the internet in a public forum.

Tristan

‘I’m a Christian’ & ‘No, I’m not interested in converting them.’ seems a strange pairing to me. As far as I know being Christian involves believing in the afterlife and that those who don’t follow Christ aren’t gonna make it there, so I would think you’d be pretty severely interested in converting everyone you cared about if you actually believed that.

Tom P

Hi Tristan. Please see my response to your concern littered all throughout this comment thread. I don’t mean to be dismissive, but I’ve talked about the differences between evangelical and mainline Christianity several times now, and I don’t have time to keep doing it whenever someone else brings it up. To save time, you can click on my name, and that’ll give you direct links to all my recent comments. Cheers!

NunyaGDbidness

Maybe because us atheists and agnostics are sick of being nice to people who believe in made up stuff just for the sake of being nice. Look…we get it, you have some odd need to fill the gaping hole in your heart with a made up deity. Great…now kindly keep it yourselves. That means keep your religion out of politics, and stop benchmarking everyone else’s sense of morality on your own beliefs. And maybe ask your priests to stop all of that rapey stuff they like to do to little kids. Maybe then we’ll be interested in playing nice.

Tom P

You’re cute, Nunya. If you’re sick of being nice to people, that really is much more a reflection on you than it is on anyone else (be they theist or atheist). It just makes you the jerk who doesn’t like to be nice.

Oh, and you’re a textbook prejudiced bigot, too. (Sorry.) You’ve taken your limited experiences with Christians who have been mean to you (or whatever) and unfairly expanded it to malign all Christians. You’ve seen no evidence here of me involving my religion with politics or judging others’ morality based on my beliefs, but you’ve nonetheless assumed that I am the kind of person who does that just because I’m a Christian.

Imagine substituting “Black” or “Arabic” or “gay” in your argument in place of “religious people.” It would be intolerable. Same principles apply. I don’t assume that all atheists are of one disposition or another based upon my exposure to to you. Why don’t you try returning the favor? Or would that be too nice for you?

Tom P

Oh, and my married lesbian priest told me that she isn’t really into all that rapey stuff you seem to think she’s all about. Sorry.

NunyaGDbidness

I’m a “bigot” because I’m not courteous to people who believe in a made up deity? That’s rich. Are Christians a minority all of a sudden? I wasn’t aware.

And yes…being nice to people who by all means should be smart enough to know better, especially when they realize that there’s a huge portion of their fellow Christians that are bigots, hateful, hurtful people and do literally NOTHING to stop that – is something I am not willing to do.

Now, when I see some meaningful reform in the church, and all mention of religions removed from politics, then I’ll be happily willing to change my tune. Until then…tough t1tty.

Tom P

Have fun with your prejudices, then. You’re no doubt missing out on friendships you might otherwise have with liberal-minded people who happen to be religious. (Take a look at the definitions of prejudice and bigotry sometime, by the way, and get back to me on whether they say the unfairly maligned party has to be a minority. I don’t see it.)

Meanwhile, I do plenty to call out the bigots within my own community. What on earth makes you think I don’t? I’m a liberal Episcopalian (think Gene Robinson and Desmond Tutu) who supports marriage equality and the right to choose. And knocking down conservative religious arguments for hateful government policies is one of my hobbies. You probably have more in common with me than you allow yourself to see. I mean, would you tell Martin Luther King to eff off during the Civil Rights Movement just because he was a Christian (who happily worked with folks of lots of different beliefs)?

I’m happy to call a truce if you are. What you think about the existence of God doesn’t matter at all to me. And I’m not interested in trying to make you believe in anything at all. Except maybe being nice to people who haven’t done anything mean to you.

NunyaGDbidness

I didn’t realize we were in a war that would necessitate a truce. I also didn’t realize that I had to be nice to people who weren’t mean to me, just because they weren’t mean to me. I know plenty of racist people who have never been mean to me either…but I don’t feel the need to make nice with them just because of that fact.

Now…perhaps if you remove religion from the equation we would indeed have some common ground…and that much I do respect. If you do indeed do the liberal minded things you claim to do, then that is a step in the right direction. But it still begs the question – why would an otherwise seemingly rational person choose to believe in something that is impossible to prove or measure in any way, shape or form – especially when given an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary.

It makes it hard to engage in meaningful discourse with a person when you are privy to that sort of knowledge. With that in mind, would you still take me seriously if I claimed to believe in the cliche “Flying spaghetti monster”, even if I was super polite? I would almost hope that you’d have the sense to dismiss just about anything I had to say based upon such knowledge. Food for thought…but you know, not the evil “tree of knowledge” kind of food for thought…I wouldn’t want you to get banned from heaven for trying that kinda fruit.

Tom P

Well, at least we’re making progress here. That’s something. Like I said, someone’s beliefs don’t matter to me at all unless they use them as an excuse for being an asshole. (I’ve got a magnet on my fridge that pictures the classic “sacred heart” Jesus, and it says: “Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrow-minded bigoted asshole.”)

I like to tell people what my college philosophy prof used to say. If you feed a hungry person because you think a cow on the other side of the moon told you to do it, the hungry person is no less fed. (If you’ll indulge me, I’ll make a quick reference to the Bible here.) Christians believe that Jesus taught in parables — stories that were factually untrue (as they hadn’t actually occurred), but they nonetheless revealed important truths. Like Aesop’s fables. Anyway, in one of these parables (the parable of the sheep and the goats), Jesus separated everybody out according to whether or not they took care of the vulnerable among them during their lives. If they did, then they were welcomed into heaven. If they didn’t, then they were sent to hell.

Now, I don’t believe in hell (for a number of theological reasons that aren’t important to this discussion), and I’m not sure what I believe about heaven. To be honest, I don’t really think about it all that much. But I do take that parable of the sheep and the goats to reveal a pretty good “ultimate” truth: Doing the right thing always matters more than believing the right thing. (In fancy academic speak: “Orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy, all the time.” And that’s my personal motto.) You don’t have to believe in God (or Jesus) to see the wisdom of that parable.

Anyway, I get wordy. Sorry. (PS: I’m a big fan of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as well as his buddy Facebook God.)

NunyaGDbidness

I even “liked” this last post from you, because it definitely smacks of someone who isn’t ignorant. Still not quite sure why you’d choose to associate with the overwhelming majority of folks that use the label “Christian” and don’t even remotely act with the same grace and forethought, but hey – that’s your prerogative.

p.s. I was raised Catholic and have always been interested in the world’s religions – just because it’s an interesting subject to me , so I actually understand a great deal of what the various parts of the Bible teach (even if it directly conflicts with other parts of the Bible). In particular, I have always loved the Beatitudes…I just wish more Christians understood them and took them to heart, rather than ignoring them altogether to push a rather ignorant agenda based on a fairly glaring lack of understanding about the religion they choose to participate in. My negative view of religions on the whole tend to stem from my understanding of them, and how often they are horribly abused to push various agendas which are often in direct conflict with the religion itself.

Tom P

Thanks, Nunya. I mean it. As for why I choose to associate with Christianity, it’s my moral community. It’s the conveyor of a moral narrative I’ve always been part of. It’s got its goods and bads. Some of the goods are really good and some of the bads are really bad. But it’s still mine. I just try to make it better in any way I can.

There are lots of great moral communities out there. And there are lots of good moral people out there who aren’t members of any community (as such). I celebrate all the good ones, and I enjoy learning from their traditions. But in the end Christianity (specifically the Episcopal Church) is mine. It’s always been important to me, and leaving it would just feel weird. To be honest, it’s less about God as some omnipotent “friend” in the sky than it is about the community that’s always been home to me. The Christians I admire are all just doing their best to make it as good as it can be for the next generation within it (and outside of it).

By the way, I’m an ethicist, and I spend most of my time in academic circles (both secular and religious).

NunyaGDbidness

I think you’d enjoy the Bill Moyers documentary series “On Faith & Reason” (if you aren’t already a fan that is). Conversations about faith with both secular and non-secular types. Pretty amazing bunch of conversations.

By all means – keep on keepin’ on. I may not agree with your choice, but I can’t argue the reasons you cite for making it.

Tom P

Thanks, and cheers!

Tonia McBride

If you’re not interested in sharing the gospel of Christ with your atheist friends, you are not a Christian. You just belong to the church club.

Tom P

(Yawn) Please see my response to this same comment littered all throughout the comment thread. You can click on my name to see my other comments, if you’re at all interested. If you’re just interested in doing a little hit-and-run-job to feel good about yourself, on the other hand, then never mind.

In short, you’re thinking of evangelical Christianity or Roman Catholicism (take your pick). I’m neither one of those. I’m a mainline Protestant, and there are about 21 million or so of us in the US, at last count. Please stop lumping us in with the ones trying to convert everyone else. That ain’t us.

Tonia McBride

If you believe in the Bible, if you believe in the message of Jesus Christ, that He is the way, the truth and light, that no one gets to the Father except by Him, then there is nothing more hateful than keeping that fact to yourself. If you don’t believe those things, then you aren’t a Christian.
By the way, I’m familiar with almost all the varieties of Christianity in this country. I’m a Lutheran. I have two best friends. One is a Methodist youth minister and one comes from a very conservative traditional bible church (think cover your hair and wear skirts). My Godmother is Catholic and my God Children are Episcopalian. I was once engaged to a Baptist and I support the Salvation Army.

And yes, I have friends who are atheists. No, I don’t beat them over the head with God. And I’d never try to pay them money I owed them with a bible tract. But I am honest about my faith and not afraid to discuss it with them or in their presence.

And nothing will make me sadder than if they go their eternal reward without accepting the love and salvation of Christ. To say that you wouldn’t want your atheist friends to join you in heaven seems uncaring at best. But perhaps you don’t actually believe in that heaven and hell stuff. In which case, what use do you claim to have for Christ. If, as I suspect, you don’t really feel that God condemns the unbeliever, then why bother to claim to believe anything? Are you that big a fan of tradition and ritual?

Tom P

Well, yes. I actually am a big fan of tradition and reason, but not for their own sake. This is a much more complicated topic for discussion than is really advisable to get into here. I’m satisfied to just say we have different beliefs about what it means to be a Christian and leave it at that. Oh, I’ll also say this because I think it’s important: orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy all the time. In lay terms, that means doing the right thing is always more important than believing the right thing. Don’t believe me? Check out the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. Jesus never asks anyone whether they’ve accepted him into their hearts or prayed a certain prayer. He just asks them whether they took care of the vulnerable among them.

Still don’t believe me? Okey-doke. I wish you a happy day.

llama

Christianity and Evangelism are not the same thing. The world is full of Christians who do not push their beliefs on anyone else, because they realize that beliefs are a personal thing. Christianity is a belief that Jesus Christ died for your sins. It has nothing to do with convincing others to believe the same thing.

tony2302

Tom i understand where you’re coming from.a friend is a friend no matter what religion they follow or don’t. and i can also add i enjoy healthy and insightful conversation with them about our beliefs. and you know what we NEVER argue just talk. wish it could be like that with others.

Tom P

I’m with you on that, friend.

Donna

Tom, your love for others is showing, but maybe, just maybe, lighten up with the bad language. It does make Christians look bad. And I doubt Jesus would want you to represent Him that way. But I love how you don’t mind telling us how you feel about your friends. Way to go.

Tom P

Sorry, Donna. Not my intention to offend. I just use the language I think is called for and appropriate for the setting. I personally don’t think Jesus really cares all that much. He could get a bit fiery from time to time himself. But “brood of vipers” doesn’t carry quite the same sting it did a couple of thousand years ago.

Thanks for the kind words, though. Cheers!

Max

I couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately, so many people seem to think that religion is the same as a cult, atheists are guaranteed to burn in hell, or that God hates homosexuals.

Andy

” I love who they are, including what they believe.” Atheists, by definition, don’t believe. They strive, instead, to understand. Two very different things.

Tom P

I don’t know about strict empiricists like you, but my atheist friends believe plenty of stuff. They believe in the essential goodness of humanity and in its capacity to improve and progress. They believe in beauty. They believe their children are the most amazing people on the planet. They believe kindness and friendship are more important than finding all the differences that separate us and harping on them. They believe the Red Sox are the greatest sports team on earth. Everyone has beliefs. Stop acting like you’re a bunch of robots collecting data and looking for nits to pick, and maybe just take another look at the whole of what I wrote in my comment. If you still object to it, somehow, then that’s on you.

Chris Wells

You mean what they don’t believe. Atheism is an absence of religious belief, not a faith in the absence of God.

A foundation of Christianity is (or at least should be) understanding. Try to take a moment to understand that your religion is very overwhelming and annoying at least in the US where there is little separation (unconstitutionally I might add). If it is a personal belief you wish to have so be it, keep it in the privacy of your home. Not on billboards, TV, sporting events, roadside marquees, conventions, restaurants, radio, newspapers, magazines, pamphlets, missionaries, etc. etc. Imagine if you were constantly bombarded by scientific fact that Christianity is a man made religion created to oppress and manipulate the thoughts and economic freedom of citizens. Perhaps you would be a bit annoyed. Go to Google maps and type in “church” and pan across America and see the cancer that grows in our communities. The less affluent and educated the area, the more the cancer thrives. I have seen it first hand where the pastor owns the best tax free land in the county and drives the nicest imported vehicle while those who tithe live in comparable squalor. The lucky ones in double-wide squalor. If you wish to give to the poor, help the poor, feed the poor, you can do so directly without giving the fellowship of Jesus a cut of the action.

And for heaven sake why you would trust a religion that contradicts itself on the first page of Genesis?

Tom P

Oh, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster! I don’t know about strict empiricists like you, but my atheist friends believe plenty of stuff. They believe in the essential goodness of humanity and in its capacity to improve and progress. They believe in beauty. They believe their children are the most amazing people on the planet. They believe kindness and friendship are more important than finding all the differences that separate us and harping on them. They believe the Red Sox are the greatest sports team on earth. Everyone has beliefs. Stop acting like you’re a bunch of robots collecting data and looking for nits to pick, and maybe just take another look at the whole of what I wrote in my comment. If you still object to it, somehow, then that’s on you.

If you’re interested at all in finding out more about the diversity within Christianity (as opposed to finding what you hate about it and assuming that’s what all Christians are like), then click on my name to see some of the other comments I’ve written on this thread.

If you really Loved your atheist friends why the heck you gonna let them go to hell? you know “if” your a child of the MOST HIGH and believe in the Grace given by JESUS is the only way to GOD and eternal life. You should be doing everything you can to open their eyes to Gods pure and everlasting love! Your doing the enemies work by letting him to continue gaining souls!

Tom P

You are personally making the world a more horrible place. Please stop. Please. Just. Stop.

SilentMadness

Tom: I truly wish every Christian was like you. You rock.

P Smith

might want to refrain from calling names and passing your own judgement. As a Christian, you should consider that the way this person spoke to you had nothing to do with you, but could have been a result of something personal. Some people have bad days, some people have badyears, and often this becomes an outlet for them…….nobody at fault, cuz we all make mistakes and bad choices. Your position should be in a place of understanding that not everyone is in the same place in life that you or I may be. It’s neither good nor bad, neither inferior nor superior….it is what it is. Calling someone an asshole because they passed judgement not only reduces you to their level, but also deflects from the Christian mindset that you are supposed to uphold

P Smith

or should I say, *human* mindset……cuz Christians aren’t the only ones with morals.
Sincerely,

Your Neighborhood Agnostic.

BarbaraT

As a Christian and knowing what you know, do you not feel compelled to lead them to Christ? With some people, you have to do it in subtle ways.

Kathleen

Your comment, more particularly, “No, I’m not interested in converting them,” has piqued my curiosity as to what your definition of a Christian is. The Gospel is the best thing one could share with friends whom we love and strangers, too. So thankful my friend loved me enough to share the source of her joy!

Bobby O’Dell

Don’t throw your pearls to pigs…lest they turn and tear you to pieces as Maggie has done,

Dee

Why do you even care to be a Christian if you so love what your atheist friends believe? What a contradiction you are. Why do you even want to claim to be a Christian, when you obviously enjoy throwing around curse words. Another contradiction. You can’t have it both ways.

Tom P

That you see things in such cut-and-dry terms is your cross to bear, Dee. I see no contradictions in either of those. Cheers!

Jamie

Tom, forgive me, but I have to ask the question….You are a “Christian” right? So you believe that God is real, there will be a day of judgment, and people will go to Hell… a place of eternal pain, fire, and gnashing of teeth…outside of putting their faith in Jesus Christ, as HE is the way the truth and the light and the ONLY way to Heaven….yet you “love what they believe.”??? So based on your beliefs (since you claim to be a Christian) You know your friends are going to Hell…..the worst place beyond your imagination…and yet you have no desire to convert them? If you are really a Christian, you should have a burning desire to convert them BECAUSE you love them!!!
That would be like knowing your friend has a horrible disease and you know the antidote and exactly how to get it, and its easy to get and it’s free, and you say “Well, I love them even though they have this horrible disease. I really don’t want to embarrass them by pointing out their disease and I know this disease ends in a horrible painful death but its really not my place to get involved. ..” Does that make sense?? Or would that be cruel?? That wouldn’t make you a great friend, that would make you a horrible friend. Just something to think about. Not looking for a debate, but as a Christian I felt it was at least my duty to ask you think about what you just said. We are called to make disciples of all men not eh…just let them go to Hell but love them on their way down.

Tom P

Jamie, you’ve got a guest account, which I gather means you’ll never read my response. (And likely neither will anyone else.) But I feel I need to briefly address this, anyway. Sorry if I’m overly blasé about this, but I’ve been reading this criticism more times than I care to think about.

Yes, I’m a Christian. And no, I don’t believe in hell or a lot of that other stuff you mentioned in your comment. And no, I’m not alone (by a long shot) among Christians who don’t identify with your exclusionary beliefs. (I don’t use the word “exclusionary” as a put-down, but rather to accurately represent your position.) I don’t care to get into a detailed explanation here, given that (again) virtually no one will read it. But rest assured that my reasons are quite defensible and quite within the mainstream within mainline Christianity (as distinct from evangelical Christianity). I have a master’s degree in religion from a highly regarded mainline seminary. No, that doesn’t mean that my position is necessarily correct. It just means that I’ve come to my position after rigorous academic scrutiny.

Anyway, anyone can feel free to leave a comment in response to this, but I won’t respond to it after this point. Just not enough payoff for the time it would take. Cheers to anyone who read this to the end!

Isaiah

What brand of Christianity do you follow? My understanding is that non-christians go to hell… If that’s the case, why are you not interested in converting your friends? I mean, if you love them and all… I understand not trying to force feed them your particular beliefs, but I’d assume that bringing them out of their sure eternal damnation would be on the top of your list of desirable things!

Just out of curiosity what brand of Christian might you be? I have several Christian friends and none of them have any atheist friends………..some of them tell me I’m the only atheist they’ve ever met.

Tom P

Hi, friend! I’m an Episcopalian with a master’s degree in theology. I also work in research ethics for a major research university, so I get to hang around in fairly academic circles (both religious and secular). I’ve got atheist colleagues, friends, and family members, and I love them all. They’re just normal folks. I don’t believe they’re going to hell. (I don’t actually believe in hell, but if I did, I can imagine lots of people “of faith” who would be headed there before my atheist friends.)

Anyway, if you live anywhere near a major university setting, then you’re likely to find Christian communities with people like me. Check with the Episcopalians, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalists, and other liberal congregations. Cheers!

The Kernal

IT WOULD BE NICE FOR YOU TO READ COLLOSIANS 3:1-17 AND GET A GRIP ON THAT FOUL LANGUAGE… Christian.

http://dailyoftheday.com/ Nona Raybern

Those verses say absolutely nothing about language. Words are merely words until you put the meaning behind them. When you utter “Dangit!” vs “Dammit!”, the way that your heart feels are the same. If you pray, “God, I messed up” vs “God, I fucked up”, does he not recognize one penance simply because you used the word “fuck”? If you think that God cares about the words and doesn’t care about the actual emotion behind your heart, that’s simply ridiculous and takes away from the omnipotence and omniscience of his being.

SpectacularBid

Tom, do you read the Bible? Have you ever heard of “The Great Commission” and what that is, given directly from Jesus Christ himself, that tells us as Christians what our mission is??? In case you don’t know, it’s to “go forth and proclaim the Gospel.” So you don’t win points in Heaven for “not being interested in converting people,” although it may make you very modern and progressive down here, very up to date and worldly as a “new world Christian,” one who is not interested in sharing the good news about the saving grace of Christ. Might all be square and cool with your atheist secular worldly friends, but according to the Word of God, you are def not with the program. Spreading the word is what Christians do. It was the last instruction of Christ before He was crucified. And I’m not busting on you Tom. I get the gist of what you wrote above, and agree with it, and with you, for the most part. And I don’t “hammer” my atheist friends, but I do try and witness to them in a gentle way, set the best example I can, etc.. But I do not “love what they believe,” as you do, which is the non-existence of my Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus, and our Heavenly Father, Creator of the universe, and Creator of each and every one of us. I am nothing without Christ. I can love the person, the atheist. But how could I love someone’s belief that Christ and all that’s written in the Holy Word of God is merely a fairy tale? That none of it is true. How can you? Anyway, I also thank Maggie for showing up, and you as well. Peace and mercy to ya brother. Peace and mercy to you too Maggie-

Another Sane Atheist

Exodus 21:7-11 NLT:
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will
not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the
man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not
allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract
with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he
may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.
If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her
food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of
these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.”

SRF

Saying you are a Christian, and that you are not interested in converting your friends, basically says you believe you need Jesus to save you and to give you eternal life free from hell but you don’t care where your friends go. I’m sure it makes you seem like a cool friend now (assuming they haven’t had the same thought I just mentioned) but…some friend in the end.

Allen

Yep because as an atheist they don’t have an ideology damning u some place. You are apart of an ideology that says if you don’t belong to it you should be punished and burned and Christians also make laws against atheists,gays and others based off there religion. Your atheist friends must be very nice. While they get discriminated against in an over religious government that suppose to secular..you the Christian lose nothing. . So of course u don’t want any atheist saying anything against u

Jaamoose

Maggie, lighten up. Saying a fake made up god is not hassling anyone for no reason, it is simply stating what atheists recognize as fact.

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

Awww, yeah, my bad. I was CLEARLY out of line there. CLEARLY

Cesar Julian Aguirre

Let’s remember, everyone has the right to believe in whatever “fake, made up” thing they would like to, so long as it doesn’t infringe upon others freedom. No need to hassle someone for simply believing. The discriminating aspects of certain religious beliefs, well now, that’s a different story.

TammieH

Thank you Maggie, as an Atheist, I agree completely. I refuse to bash Christians, Jews, Muslims or any other religion. Love and respect all people without exception!

Anti-Anti

Love to all people — but what’s there to respect: their false beliefs? In your over-zealous efforts to be all-inclusive, you patronize those of faith. If atheism is good enough for you, why not them, Ms Superior?!

Violet

That is a strange question. A lot of things are good enough for me but unacceptable to others and vice versa. Who am I to say I know what is good for you or anyone else? Why should we like/choose/believe in the same thing? And to use your logic for the other side, why should they respect what they consider false beliefs? If Christianity is good enough for them, why not you?

Cesar Julian Aguirre

Love people for who they are, not the religion they have chosen or that has been chosen for them.

VG Lovecraft

This particular Pagan doesn’t feel patronized by TammieH’s comment at all. And I don’t think it’s likely that she feels herself superior. However, she is superior to you, in my opinion.

Don McLaughlin

Like a fine Gem, people have many facets. An open mind can find quite enough other attributes to respect…

anti-anti

did i steal your nickname or did you? If i did, i apologize! mine means that i am against anything that is against anything. LOL i am anti – anti.

Derek

contradictory dont you think? yes…. very..

Katerina

As a solid atheist for more than 10 years, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Bill Yeske

What’s the matter Maggie? Does it not feel so good when the shoe on the other foot?

Xed

As a sane Christian male I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being a sane atheist…If i Knew you irl i’d buy you a beer.(edited for an “f”)

Colin S

Okay Maggie do you consider, “useless assholery,” as you put it to be pointing out the blatantly destructive force that is religion in this world? It causes people to delude themselves with thinking that is ultimately harmful to both the individual and society as a whole. To quote Bill Maher: “Acceptance of religion is the purposeful suspension of critical reasoning, it’s nothing to be admired.” The people who accept religion have turned from reason, rationality and logic to bullshit dogma, and thus have declined themselves opportunities in this life. At the same time, they go and spread this bullshit to others, forcing it down their throats. Is this useful for society? No. Is there a need to combat it? Yes. Is making rational arguments against it considered, “useless assholery?” Yes. Thanks for playing though.

Colin S

Woops “no” for the last answer, I was typing quick sorry

VG Lovecraft

The sad thing is, Colin. . . Well, there are actually several sad things, so. . 1) Bill Maher defends Christianity whenever he says that “Muslims are terrorists,” 2) Maher’s “acceptance or religion” statement assumes that all religions are “organized, hierarchical, and evangelical”. As religion is only a method for understanding our connection to the universe (the Latin root of “religion” is “legare”, meaning “to bind together or connect”), both Atheism and science are actually religions (which I’ve heard Bill deny many times), and 3) if Bill wants to make “rational arguments against” religion, he should learn that not everyone who uses the word has such a biased definition, and most importantly, stop pitting one religion against another whenever he finds it conducive to his flawed arguments. Just one Pagan’s opinion.

Jamie Mattox

I am wiccan and i do not do harm i do my best to help people and animals and the earth from harm done to them

VG Lovecraft

Maggie,
You are a follower of the “Old Atheism” that I mention above. I truly hope that you, and other Atheists of your mindset, can convince other Atheists that your path will greatly improve “religious” folks’ attitude toward Atheism.

Mike Taylor

Dear fellow atheist above, i don’t think you are a atheist i think your a Christian masquerading as one to make the atheists look bad ? where is your god ?

Tom P

Dear Mike Taylor, I don’t think you are really Mike Taylor. You sound more like Oprah Winfrey. Where is my car?

grace

i’m an atheist and i totally agree

Carolyn Bunkley

Maggie, I think I love you. Thank you for your sanity.

ShatteredWorld

Much love for Maggie! Finally, an atheist on the internet that can learn not to hassle and respect the views of others!

Debra

I applaud you, Maggie!

Rick Sander

Hey Maggie! My first instinct was to applaud your reply, but then i thought of a debate between Hitchens and some religious types. There was another athiest on the panel who would have supported what you said, but you could see Hitch slowly brewing something up. When he spoke, there was anger. He reminded the audience that when religious people had the power, they put people like him, or anyone really, to death at every and any chance. So I dont mind Sane Atheist’s comment. My $0.02.

VG Lovecraft

Rick: “Hitch” consistently exacerbated the problem. His anger is the fuel for the evangelical (Christian, Jew, Pagan, etc.) fire. Yes, zealous adherence to any “religion” causes strife and death. The “New Atheism” evangelized by Dawkins, Hitchens et al is the problem, not the solution. The sooner the “Holy Trinity” (Darwin the Father, Dawkins the Son, and Hitchens the Holy Ghost) is renounced by Atheists, the better for the Atheist “community”. One Sane Pagan’s opinion.

Rick Sander

Hey VG! Personally, I am not one of these peeps that wants to ban religious stuff in public spaces or even thinks about such things.. I just don’t care at all about that stuff, either way. And I totally agree that the human urges that are satisfied with some through religious adherence, can also manifest themselves through Atheism and other things. But I do believe that Hitch and Sam Harris for instance just really gave a voice to a lot of people so they could start from a new perspective. I guess is depends on what we think the problem is that’s being aggravated. I guess I don’t really have a point to add but am enjoying the conversation here!

VG Lovecraft

Oh, yes, I agree with you on the “new perspective” point, and from what I have heard of Sam Harris, he does seem a bit less “angry” than Hitchens, and especially Dawkins. And I don’t care about religious stuff in public places, either. I’m enjoying the conversation, too.

Kristi Fenstermacher

Dear Maggie,

No reason? Come on. Don’t call someone immature because you haven’t grasped the fact that religion is inherently a crime against humanity. If people can’t see how their security blankets are manipulating them, dividing humanity, and smothering those around them while they continually try to turn hateful and misogynistic viewpoints into ingrained thoughts and even legislation – we are obligated to check their reality and point out how fucked up and distorted their world view is. The entitlement of the people always bitching about entitlements will ultimately result in the end of the human race, because it creates fake divides, limits foresight, and manipulates us into doing things against our evolutionary interests (i.e. genocide).

Sincerely,
Someone who feels morally compelled to stand up to bullies striving for inhumane levels of conformity in a species that thrives on diversity. If you can’t see a reason, either step back and consider the fall out of making humanity feel guilty for its existence while simultaneously provide artificial satisfaction from which they directly benefit, scapegoating the quest for knowledge we need to see through their manipulations, and framing the gender they wanted to subjugate to justify treating them like vectors for copying genes rather than inherently equal assets – then you need to shut the fuck up and go think in the corner about what you just did.

VG Lovecraft

Dear Kristi,

Exactly how do you define your wish to eliminate all world views other than the New Atheism as supportive of “a species that thrives on diversity”? Also, I hope I am reading you incorrectly, but are you saying that genocide is in humankind’s evolutionary interest? If you are, that is not simply “anti-diversity”, it is anti-humanity.

Just so you’re aware, I am a Pagan. I am not hateful or misogynistic, and I do not support any legislation which seeks to regulate morality and religious freedom.

As you say, we’re obligated to check others’ reality and point out how fucked up and misguided it is. Look in the mirror and think about what you just did.

Blessed Be!
A Pagan who stands up to bullies that promote conformity, while calling it diversity.

Kristi Fenstermacher

Alright – wires were crossed somewhere. Diversity is in our evolutionary interest – like, the people who just seem to be immune to aids – everyone’s genes have been successfully passed on since the beginning of life (seriously – I look at my ugly Grandpa – and I know I am extremely fortunate to exist.) That’s enough justification for their existence – the fact that they exist in and of itself (turns out crimes against humanity are still crimes against humanity from an evolutionary perspective – wiping out part of the genome is never a good plan). Those kinds of actions just usually require religious indoctrination, which in itself seems inhumane, because it limits perspectives, and teaches us to fear others, while still somehow thinking we’re better than everyone else.
Christianity stole Pagan holidays, so all I really know for sure is you guys know how to party. I’ve ignored most of the propaganda, and I think they probably had the best idea. More of an “enjoy the ride appreciate nature” approach, than one that creates arbitrary, mass murder, jihad-worthy divides. Having an entitled “this world was made for us” is incredibly damaging, and trying to force a skewed world view on others causes good people to do horrible things, and it’s holding everyone back from seeing reality and trying to understand it. We need more scientists, and every unique perspective is a new way to approach a hard problem that we need to solve to sustain life on this planet. I’m not sure how I conveyed the opposite, but diversity is awesome. It makes me really sad when people struggle to produce original thoughts. What if the cure for cancer was in the brain, but god sent her a rape baby? There’s a lot broken in our society, and I can’t pretend religion isn’t a main part of it by stifling questioning and subjugating half of our available brain power.

I guess I wish I knew if they are being active scammers, or if they are just so delusional that they think what they left is somehow an acceptable tip, because she needs to be saved. How do they know she needs to be saved? Maybe she already has that salvation thing on lockdown, but was counting on that money for groceries. “Christians” are voting against taking care of the sick and poor – If I sound insane – it’s because this is backwards world. Since when do you focus on two vague hateful messages and ignore an entire testament about taking care of the less fortunate? Seriously. I didn’t make it far in Sunday school, but Jesus was abundantly clear about that.

VG Lovecraft

OK, I doubted that you were promoting genocide, but as it wasn’t clear, I wanted to be sure. Also, religion in itself is not the problem, but the evangelical fervor of some is. Along with, of course, the “organized religion” tactics of manipulation, division, etc.

I don’t have a problem with most of the posts I’ve seen from Maggie, and I tend to agree with her, but I haven’t read every single comment in here, either. And yeah, I wasn’t much for Sunday school, either, but you are correct about Jesus. Too bad so many Christians seem to forget that.

Mitchell Davis

Sigh…

If you follow a book that tells you to murder people for not believing what you do, then you don’t get to call yourself sane, nor call yourself moral. Sticking up for that immoral bilge makes you the asshole.

Atheist =/= rational person. I think the best demonstration of that is people that think calling people on their evils and falsehoods is a BAD thing.

AriellaHero

We talking about the Torah, which is about a Bronze Age culture? Because I don’t see anything in modern Judaism, say, which says kill all the non-believers. In fact, in Judaism, it’s easier for those who aren’t Jewish to get into paradise than those who are…

Mitchell Davis

” In fact, in Judaism, it’s easier for those who aren’t Jewish to get into paradise than those who are…”

False.

Each and every Abrahamic religion is simply evil. I do not care if you disagree, because that simply means my morals are superior to yours. Divine command theory is an immoral system, and is necessitated in each of those religions. What’s more, they all promote rape, slavery, and mass-slaughter.

I tolerate the religious, not the religions. Religions are a throwback to the infancy of our species when we could barely comprehend how to make fire, let alone utilize it. I will not stand for the constant barrage of homophobia and racism and sexism and lies and death that is propagated by this despicable nonsense.

I care about what is good, and I care about what is known. That is a moral system which will always triumph over that of those that simply wish to sycophantically regurgitate and propagate the will of dictators, irrespective of claims to divinity.

VG Lovecraft

Mitchell: What you state here is your religion; your understanding of your “link” to the universe. Religion is not a “throwback”, but any system of thought which examines our existence. Thus, science and Atheism are religions, as well (albeit, they are based on empiricism, as opposed to the mysticism of many other religions). You say that the Abrahamic religions are “evil”. Evil is an Abrahamic concept.

I am a Pagan, and do not follow any Abrahamic path (JudeoChristianity and Islam, just to clarify the term). Personally, I do not “follow” the writings in books, or the teachings of any “guru” or figurehead(s). My personal religion is not dictatorial, misogynistic, racist, etc. It is my religion, and mine alone. Thus, I do not speak for all Pagans, either.

Mitchell Davis

Trying to redefine (read: lie about the meaning of) words on the fly (like, ‘religion’ and ‘evil’) for the sake of making your argument look better is intellectually dishonest. If you can manage not to be intellectually dishonest, I’ll have a conversation with you.

If you can’t manage that, then having a discussion is pointless.

VG Lovecraft

I am not “redefining” the word religion, and am defining it based on the Latin root of the word, which is not being intellectually dishonest. I am not the one who “invented” the definition which I use either. However, even if I had done so, as long as I provide you with my word(s) and definition(s), that is not being dishonest. It is in fact being honest, in the hope of providing clarity, and a possible beginning point for discussion. Of course, I do agree that, if we cannot agree on a common definition of something (or at least understand how our definitions differ), then having a discussion is indeed pointless.

C P

oh god, stop being an apologistic loser. This is a thread about the religous hassling a waiter and being a cheap SOB. Any godaholic that comes in here and expects people to be nice to them is twice as retarded as the box standard godaholic. Any athiest that doesn’t like it is just a pussy.

Tom P

Trollolololo! Lolololololo-lolololololo!

Shauny

Maggie!!! I’m a Christian and i approve your message…lol

Ideeful

thank you!

Dee Aguirre

Oh this was priceless… better than any comeback I was prepared to offer. Thank You!

kerryberger

Thank you, Maggie! Well said.

George Holland

Do NOT be an apologetic atheist. Religious people are NEVER challenged. They need to be challenged in their beliefs constantly. That is how we will see change. And if you really believe religion is harmless, you are ignorant. I live the US SOUTH, and I can tell you, the religious here have made things very terrible. So yes, atheists should continue to challenge, ridicule, and mock the religious for being what they are: deluded, immature, thoughtless, misguided and gullible.

Tom P

Have fun with that, George. But Maggie and I and all our religious and atheist friends who feel no need to hate on one another will just be over here having fun and doing our best to make the world a better place. Mock on, brother! See how many friends and allies that gets you.

AriellaHero

Not challenged? You’re just as bad as the fundies who try and save my soul. They think pretty close to the same thing about my Judaism.

VG Lovecraft

Here are the problems with what you said George (as I see it):

1) Religion is simply a method we humans use as a “link” to the universe and our beginnings. Religion is not the problem, evangelism is. Evangelism requires the adherent to spread one’s religion to others, usually forcefully. By these definitions, a) Atheism is a religion which explains our link to the universe without god(s). b) “New Atheism” says “God is a delusion. Religion is the cause of the world’s problems.” c) “New Atheism is evangelistic, and therefore, just as much a part of the problem as evangelical Christianity, Judaism, Paganism, etc.

2) “Religious people” do get challenged, at times even from alternative “sects” of their own religion.

3) I lived in the US South for five years while attending college. I agree with you that the religious zealots there do make life rather difficult. However, I did make several lifelong friends down there, and most were Christian (obviously not evangelical).

4) If you continue to ridicule, mock, and challenge (in a negative way. There is actually benefit to be gained on both sides, if you “challenge” someone with honest questions) the religious, including “Old Atheists” like Maggie, you are an evangelical Atheist, and a part of the problem. You are just as immature, thoughtless, deluded, misguided and gullible as those you claim to be your enemies.

Now, to be fair, let’s look in the mirror. Am I being evangelical by stating these points? An argument could certainly be made for that position. However, while I point out what I feel to be your gullibility for New Atheism, I am not telling you that you need to agree with me. I am not saying that you will go to Hell, be struck by Thor’s hammer, turned into a pillar of salt by Yahweh, or banished from the Atheist community for heretical teachings. I will say that I believe that you will be happier, and attract more allies (and perhaps “converts”) to Atheism if you break your evangelical chains, and become more of an (as you say) “apologetic” Atheist.

Chelsey West

As a Christian, I thank you @Magsc:disqus . Both Christians and Athiests alike have dumbasses that make us look bad.

TheMarkness

Atheists do not speak for other atheists, nor do they represent them in any way, shape, or form.

bianca

All you atheist are still acknowledging that there is a God but that you just don’t believe in him. I am not one to criticize anyone’s belief however don’t you honestly think there is a higher being

On the behalf of sane and polite, secular people in this country, please disregard Sane Atheists’ comment. They do not reflect the views of all of us secular minded people. Sane Atheist has failed to realize that he’s doing the same thing that certain members of the religion he dislikes are doing to him! Most of us just want to live our lives without being demeaning towards the beliefs of others merely because we disagree with them.

Thank you, Maggie! I am an atheist, but I feel no need to be a douche about it. I respect my friends’ religions, and try never to talk them out of it, or ridicule their beliefs. Just because we’re soulless, doesn’t mean we have to be douchbags. (And THAT was said in a TOTALLY jesting mode! lol) Keep it real, people. XOXO!

tony2302

yes Maggie i agree.that’s just as bad as the religious trying to force feed us the glory of “God”. live and let live.just don’t pay attention to Bible thumpers.that’s the easiest thing to do.

Ingemar Smith

A religion that has killed hundreds of millions needs defense from being ‘hassled’ for ‘no reason’ by an internet comment?

Ok.

Pronk

Maggie for the win

maxx

childish response from someone who secretly is applauding the fake tip givers, thanks for proving “atheist’s” point perfectly!

KillerTruffle

Because the only mature response in this case is to bash Christians as a whole without cause.

ARCuncensored

THANK YOU MAGGIE!!!!!

Christoph Burkman

ahahaahahaha burrrrrrn

Name

I think people should be more thoughtful of others, this joke is funny to a friend, but in this occasion who knows this person could be in need of even 10 bucks. you never know others situations.

magnolialover

Thank you Maggie! As someone else said, I hate it when atheists are being preachy to religious people because they think we are somehow better. We are not. We just have a different belief system. So atheists, stop trying to force your atheism on others. It’s just as bad as the religious trying to convert us.

Coontastic

LMAO, thank you!

Marc Lawrence

That’s right. It’s called freedom.

elzads

You are so right. Although I was interested in knowing more about Christ since I was a child, looking at the Christians I knew, hell seemed a better choice (that was where Christians told me I would go if I did not convert). At 29, I decided to not allow other peoples’ actions decide for me. I researched and learned about Christ, and became a Christian. However, I never could and still cannot understand the need either side has to insult the other. It just does not seem to be the most effective and efficient way to convince anyone of anything.

elzads

Michael Bannan

Quit making us look like pussies. We have a duty to stand up against the insanity that is religion. So what it makes me look like an asshole? I’m not the one claiming belief in some fairy sky god without any evidence.

Elizabeth

Thank you!!!

Adam

I see your point, but I disagree. I see religion everywhere: at work, on TV, the internet, etc. I try and stay away from all thing religious (I didn’t realize this article was in that area until I read it) so that I don’t have to deal with these people, their beliefs, or invisible friends. However, since their religion has infected my life, stomped on my rights, and killed millions of people, I see nothing wrong with one little comment. We atheists do not go around killing for something for which there is no proof. If everyone’s personal beliefs stayed personal, then yes, you’d have every right to go after the guy who made the comment, but since the religious feel a need to spout their beliefs to the rest of the world and try and make us see their way, I will applaud every attack against them.

joefalco

both you fockers get a thumbs up

ArtDeco78

Fellow atheist here and thank you, Maggie. You are completely right about useless assholery.

Nancy Spann

YES!!!!! thank you Maggie, that is all.

rdm80

You are the kind of atheist I could like

Asha Blue

Thank you!!! Honestly I’m a Christian, but whenever these comments show up I just wonder where the reasonable and mature atheists are, cause i’m sure there are some.

Scott

So what proof do you have that shows there’s not a GOD? Look all around you. What, you think this all just appeared through evolutions. I bet you think we came from monkeys too. Sounds like you’ve never even tried to read the bible. You have a brain really you should expand it instead of rolling joints out of scriptures.I’m just saying God is real accept it and love it.

Alecs

I just did the same thing, only worse…

Wallace Morrison

Yeah, useless and we hassle you. You have a church, synagogue, mosque and religious building on every corner. You are ringing your bells every day and show yourself on every t-shirt, bicycle, political agenda, tv show, movie,e tc., and we are harassing you, lol. Your leaders are known for wars against all nations, Hitler’s holocaust, burnings, hangings and mutilations of non-believers or even those who think slight differently than you, but yet we are simply asking for you to be useful and instead of destroying our world, to pick up a book or maybe at least 2 and read things that deal in reality like books of math and science and not fantasy like Bibles and Qurans. I guess we Atheists and FreeThinkers are useless as our leaders actually have changed this planet with brighter minds like Edison and Einstein and thousands of other scientists. Contrary to your statement, we are not useless and hassle you for no reason. In fact, we are quite the opposite and if anyone should reflect ion your statement, it’s anyone who believes in invisible beings without any scientific proof whatsoever. i will agree with you on one thing though. There are many of us who are assholes, maybe even myself. However, I can only say that when it applies to the thought of me being an asshole because i live in reality and I like to inform people of that.

Jeremy Frear

i am agnostic and i hear people every day when i tell them tht either tell me that they believe tht it is the same thing as beiing an atheist or they have no clue what it means. i wish people would just accept everybody for who they are and go on with their lives….

Cara Roxanne

Took the words right from my mouth, Maggie.

Sam

*Like*

Chuckles

Hey, that offends me as my imaginary friend in the sky no longer talks to me so I’m atheisting now.

KiaMIA

Alas. An atheist worthy of absolute high regards and major respect. I appreciate you, my fellow human being.

Miko Wu

Dear fellow atheists,

Stop being cowards.

Sincerely,
Reality

SpectacularBid

God bless you Maggie… *smile*

Guest

Dear brainwashed Christian:

Your religion and its scriptures teach people to do evil things like murder, rape and cannibalism. Read the bible before you support its immorality. Freedom from religion is freedom from psychological bondage.

Sincerely,
Another sane atheist.

Another Sane Atheist

Christianity and the bible teach evil and immorality. Religion deserves to be criticized and ridiculed for it is harmful to society.

Exodus 21:20-21 NAB:
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a
rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If,
however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since
the slave is his own property.”

Sorry we use reality and facts to get thru the day…I”m cool with you being in denial and all and not pushing it on me and my children!

scientist.

I don’t think this is a real atheist.

http://apprenticefeminist.blogspot.com/ Maggie

I wish I could share your optimism!

Annie S.

Dear Atheist: You are a complete douchebag.

Signed, An Agnostic who doesn’t want to be associated with Atheists who look down their nose at Believers.

FlyingFree333

All agnostics are lying, cowardly douchebags.

LlamaHomefry

Nah, they just have to balls to admit that they might not have all the answers about the Universe.

Though, not all of them might agree. I hope I didn’t offend you, Annie.

Judean People’s Front

Atheists admit that too, in that we will change with evidence….show use evidence of a god or gods and we will change I assure you…. the same can’t be said for most religious folks…. partly since you can’t disprove a negative…. and partly because of a thick layer of desperate denial. Why don’t you believe in Thor or Zeus? Such religions are just a legitimate as Christianity and just as likely too be right…….
.

LlamaHomefry

I agree, though I think there is a reason some religions survive over others. That’s why I don’t care what people believe (unless it’s harmful to themselves or others) since there’s usually a damn good reason for connecting with one set of beliefs over another.

Trisha Annmarie Glaser

the only reason that religion in america does do as much harm as in other countries is because we have way more christians that don’t take the bible seriously.. hence why almost all of our prison population are christians.

LlamaHomefry

No, it doesn’t do as much harm because it can’t. The Founding Fathers made sure of that. Your baseless fact has nothing to do with it.

Christina

I think you hit the nail on the head. It has always surprised me that most Christians (at least the more tolerant ones) don’t get that evangelical Christians see them as Christian-lite and not devout at all. We forget that before they persecuted believers of other religions, Christians persecuted one another.

I”m Right You’re Wrong

Go cry to your mommy, to cry baby bitch.. I’m a girl, and I bet my balls are bigger than yours.. NO ONE has the answers to the universe, you tard! DO YOU? Prove to me you do.. I thought not, Faggot.

dick douche

No you dumbass. Agnostics are people who do not believe in god, but who won’t deny the existence of one because there’s no scientific actual proof stating that god does not exist. Seriously, go fuck yourself. And go bitch about how “Obongo took ur 12 jerbs and your machine gun.” damn hicks and their incest.

I”m Right You’re Wrong

Says the faggot hiding behind a computer to talk shit about people they don’t no.. Go fuck right of a cliff you fuckng retard.. You wouldn’t come here and say it.. I’d pound your face into the ground.

Fullerene

Most atheists are agnostic. It’s too bad that so few people know what either word means.

no true there are agnostic atheists and atheistic agnostics their is not just one label.

Bo

You are reading too much into that definition. It is not that agnostics are timid about being full fledged atheists nor are they half in half out with religious beliefs. Agnostics simply believe that just as religious people cannot prove their Gods… atheists also cannot disprove that SOMETHING(S) exist int he galaxy. Since atheists also cannot fly the galaxy to return positive proof agnostics simply categorize other life forms, including God, aliens, the origins of the universe, and all other unanswered questions in the pile of “we don’t know.” In a sense atheists are doing the same thing christians are… trying to prove something that cannot be proven. But seriously, agnostics aren’t lukewarm about religion… we simply don’t really care about arguments that can’t be won. We are ok with saying… ‘we don’t know.’ Most agnostics are conceptually irreligious but interpret definitions of “God” more loosely. Do I believe something is up there poking me as I go along my daily life? Absolutely not, Do I know what is up there? Absolutely not, why would I try to prove that there is nothing up there? Who really cares about arguing about what is inside of a box that nobody has?

omjho

What is it with you people and straw man fallacies? You’re wrong. As I said elsewhere, atheism is the rejection of the theists’ claim that god(s) exists. i don’t have to prove that there’s no god because the burden of proof is on those making the positive claim.

VG Lovecraft

Incorrect, because before *anything* can be accepted or rejected, it must be defined. Further, before any “arguments” can be made (as in “supporting evidence”, not the “you’re wrong!” type of “argument”) the parties must agree upon their definition of a term.

My personal proof of the existence of “God”: God is everything that exists, known and unknown. It is omnipresent, but not omnipotent. Therefore, God must exist. However, if your “God” is defined as omnipotent and/or solely a “sky being”, our definitions disagree, and thus proof cannot be given. Indeed, if our definitions disagree, no discourse can even begin.

I”m Right You’re Wrong

THANK YOU!

Bo

Why would you care about something that can’t be proven or disproven? Am I pro religion? Of course not. Do I live my life following some ancient philosophy that was most likely engendered through anthropological transference between cultures and evolved with them through time? Of course not. But that is where it ends. To take it a step further to try to prove to a fundamentalist that their point is invalid forces you to use identical arguments. From a logical standpoint it doesn’t make sense. Would you argue with a demented person about something? The fact is that the human experience is filled with matters of faith. Everything from trust, to love, to marriage… all social constructs. It is just endemic to our species. So if you for some reason feel the need to attack Christians for having their own brand of faith… just remember, you take plenty of things on faith as well. From politics to your wife… everybody believes in something. Me personally I don’t believe in much but I sure as hell don’t judge others for believing in something that I can’t positively disprove. As long as they stay out of my life with it. I respect it. But I guess we can’t all be mature about it. Just like a rabid proselytizing missionary gives a bad name to Christians so do militant atheists, feeling it necessary to attack their brethren as if they themselves were so much more superior. I do identify with atheists more than theists… but I will never condone the condescending touch. It’s probably a personal thing though… I’m not so invested in what others do to feel better about myself.

Zac Main

Actually, if you want to get serious about it, agnostic is also an adjective.
For example, an agnostic atheist is a person who does not believe in god/s, but who would change their views with evidence.
Gnosticism is the much more arrogant position: It is the statement that “There is/are (a) god/s” or “There isn’t/aren’t god/s”
Agnosticism is the only real position, because nobody can be 100% sure.
Signed, an agnostic atheist.

Matthew

It’s called education. Facts are infallible. Facts are available. Facts, throughout ALL of history, continue to disprove each and every one of the thousands of gods.

Zac Main

Yes, yes they do. But still, claiming that you know there’s no god, no higher power, is an incredibly bold statement. It indicates some manner of special knowledge and it’s just as arrogant as theists who claim that they know there is a god.

Both are claims of special knowledge.

apathy is my position

I am an apathetic agnostic: I don’t know and I don’t care.

VG Lovecraft

Define “god/s”, please. See me definition above.

Signed, a Gnostic Pagan.

omjho

You don’t get to make up your own definitions of what words mean. An atheist is someone who rejects the theist claim that god(s) exists. Someone who claims there is no god is an anti-theist.

VG Lovecraft

“A-” means “without”; “theo” means “god”. Theism is a belief which includes god(s); Atheism is “without god(s)”, but not the declarative “there is no god(s). Agnosis means “without knowledge”, so an agnostic does not “know god”, in the common use of the term.

Trisha Annmarie Glaser

right?

http://kyleracki.com/ Kyle Racki

Atheists don’t say they know or can prove there’s no god. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods.

Agnosticism has to do with knowledge and not belief. An agnostic says it can’t be known one way or the other whether gods exist. So yes, you can be an agnostic atheist or an atheistic agnostic.

I’m an atheist (at one time a christian fundamentalist as I was raised to be), and I can’t say I know for sure what’s out there in the universe, all I can say is that I highly doubt life was placed here by anything resembling the god of the bible or that there’s an afterlife.

Douglas Mckeever

Agnosticism is not some neutral midpoint on the theist/atheist scale. It covers a completely different area. Most atheists are agnostic atheists. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods & goddesses, fullstop. It make no absolute or dogmatic claims.

You sign-off is somewhat ironic. I take it you prefer associating with ‘agnostics’ who look down their noses at atheists?

Will

Dear Everyone,

Shut up. Your self-righteous, wrong and everyone hates you.

Anti-Anti

Dear Agnostic, you’re a cowardly and indecisive little piss-ant. Stop trying to play both sides of the fence, just in case you’re wrong. If you feel so compelled to defend believers, why not re-join them. Because clearly you were one before going agnostic (I was going to say “fagnostic,” but that, I realize is uncool on myriad levels), and half-way making up your mind, but being too afraid to fully commit, because you suspect hell might just be real). What an asshole!

Aware

Man: Doctor, will she live?
Doctor: I dont know at this stage.
Man: YOU COWARDLY INDECISIVE LITTLE PISSANT!!!!

Saying you do not know when you have absolutely no evidence either way is NOT playing both sides of the fence. Its acknowledging the limitations of your current knowledge. Show me proof EITHER WAY and Ill believe. But until you can, there is no point claiming YOU know. Not only that, but to call someone wrong and insult them simply for stating that they wont pass judgement without facts says far more about your own character than it does theirs. And you dont even have the excuse of a holy book to cling to……YOUR assholery is all your own. Congratulations