The word “hypocrite” has been thrown around a great deal lately on the divisive issue of race-day medication in American horseracing.

How, ask supporters of the status quo, can members of The Jockey Club and directors of the Breeders’ Cup or Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association push to eliminate the race-day use of furosemide to treat exercise induced pulmonary hemorrhage while still having their own horses race on the drug.

Hypocrisy, right?

Not in my mind it isn’t.

It’s been commonly accepted for many years that furosemide, better known as Lasix, improves performance. Why else do ninety-some percent of horses in North America get Lasix on race-day when only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise and detected via endoscopic examination?

Those owners who want North American racing to be conducted under medication rules similar to the rest of the world should not feel compelled to run their horses without Lasix – for as long as it is permitted. It would create an uneven playing field and put them at a competitive disadvantage. It’s the same reason the vast majority of owners and trainers from overseas who ship to North America for major races like the Arlington Million or Breeders’ Cup elect to run their horses on Lasix. They want to win, and it’s counterproductive for them to travel all this way and not take advantage of a legal drug with which virtually every other horse will be treated.

That’s why the pledge made last week by 40 racehorse owners to not run their 2-year-olds of 2012 on Lasix is such a significant development. I am convinced most of them are doing so despite believing their horses will have a more difficult time winning. It demonstrates their interest in quieting the chorus of cynics who have been crying “hypocrite” and further confirms their resolve to move this issue forward.

They are making a personal sacrifice on behalf of a cause in which they believe.

It hasn’t quieted the critics, of course, who now say the pledge list is comprised of independently wealthy owners who could care less whether or not their Thoroughbreds provide any return on investment.

That’s just plain poppycock.

It’s more of the same character assassination. First they were hypocrites. Next, they were cruel to animals for not wanting to give medication to racehorses that may relieve them of internal bleeding. Now they are spoiled rich people who don’t care if their horses are worthless.

This is not an issue that’s colored in black and white. There are legitimate reasons that favor continuing the use of Lasix on race-day, and there are equally legitimate concerns that its use is damaging both to the Thoroughbred breed and the sport of horse racing.

I think everyone, no matter what side they fall on this most divisive issue, wants what is best for the horses and the sport. Let’s end the name calling and start a dialogue that can lead to consensus.

This sport is often divided between the Elite and the non-Elite. I wish the Elite in this case had reached out and asked for everyday folks to join their movement. It would have had more impact. The perception is a bunch of rich people who are rich whether their horses run first or last are trying to make a stand which makes it lack efficacy.

Concerned observer

Reaching out to the non-elites is a good idea….except they are not at all organized, how would the elites reach them? Certainly not through the HBPA, who has dug in and is not at all open to discussion.

Second point, Elites did not get to be elite because they did not care if they won or lost.

Ray, a fine discussion and analysis of some convoluted arguments.

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

Part of the other issue with the “non-elites” is a lot of them are in partnerships on horses, and if even one member does not want to agree to the pledge….it would be hard to do.

AnnieO

I’m an ‘everyday’ trainer/owner who stopped giving Lasix to my horses a few years ago. They still won races at Gulfstream and Saratoga…and keeping horses healthy is the best way to ensure they do not bleed. Frankly, I can’t remember the last time I had one bleed after a race or breeze, and they are scoped every time. I admire the hell out of these owners for doing this, and hope the rest of the racing community follows them.

samm

hardly an “everyday trainer” if your stock races at the 2 most elite meets…

samm

also… do your horses get regular time off? very hard to do with owners that want to keep running year round!!

May Flower

Mandated time-off and retirement to protect horses and ethical trainers is coming.

Cliff

And hardly an “everyday trainer” if she can’t use her everyday name.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Everybody on this thread is an owner /breeder/ trainer :-) I guess I’m the only player here. Either that or first BSer around here ain’t got a chance ! LOL. And don’t anybody here try to say that ain’t funny !

Anita Xanax

That ain’t funny.

Lost In The Fog

There is absolutely nothing stopping the “non-elite” (as you describe them) from joining the movement. Participation in doing the right thing doesn’t require anyone else’s permission, just the will to do it.

Stanley inman

Lost in the fog
This notion that only “elites” CAN or WOULD run without raceday meds
Is just a reflection of
How most who WATCH the sport can’t fully appreciate why we would take such a pledge.
Buying into this observation of “elite-nonelite”
Misses the intrinsic nature of the sport and those who play. It’s about COMPETING,
You don’t whine, or complain when a 1/2 million dollar horse bets you;
That’s the sport.
And, unless you have experienced it you can never fully understand.
All this speculation about what happens if…
Is just conventional thinking which is always wrong;
You know like
Blacks have tails;
Woman are hysterical and can’t handle voting
And we should all get a PSAI tesT to save us from cancer

Drugging athletes( horses) on raceday is not sport it’s antithetical to sport.

http://profile.yahoo.com/GN75TMMTTZCDAKCKWH4QH6RDYQ Ronald T

Ray…About ten years ago i was training horses for a client with a net worth of about 200 million….They were fairly new in the business and did not want any “artificial”drugs given to their horses …..This included but was not limited to vaccines,lasix and normal preventive care…When i explained to them that all of these things helped to level the playing field if you wanted to be competitive and win i was told by this person that “their horses didn’t have to win” and that was a direct word for word quote…….We have since parted terms but the irony here is that they have now started using whatever is okay under the guise of “sometimes you have to change the oil”……

The Cubs Still Stink

This sport is often divided between the Elite and the non-Elite. I wish the Elite in this case had reached out and asked for everyday folks to join their movement. It would have had more impact. The perception is a bunch of rich people who are rich whether their horses run first or last are trying to make a stand which makes it lack efficacy.

http://profile.yahoo.com/GN75TMMTTZCDAKCKWH4QH6RDYQ Ronald T

Ray…About ten years ago i was training horses for a client with a net worth of about 200 million….They were fairly new in the business and did not want any “artificial”drugs given to their horses …..This included but was not limited to vaccines,lasix and normal preventive care…When i explained to them that all of these things helped to level the playing field if you wanted to be competitive and win i was told by this person that “their horses didn’t have to win” and that was a direct word for word quote…….We have since parted terms but the irony here is that they have now started using whatever is okay under the guise of “sometimes you have to change the oil”……

Tinky

Excellent commentary, Ray. You hit all of the right notes.

Tinky

Excellent commentary, Ray. You hit all of the right notes.

Stanley inman

Ray;
Go back and examine when the name callin started;
It didn’t begin with those advocating ending raceday meds;
When truthful statements like ” needle in the neck” were used; when an open discusssion challenging the apologists about the unintended consequences and the attendant costs of using lasix went ” public”
The Apologists went ballistic; Caught off guard, the name calling began.

Part of their strategy has been to make this a “class” issue;
Rich against hardworking horsemen
Jockey club & toba vs. Non elites.
This movement was not started by either group
They joined up later when they saw a “winner”
No different than their historical role within the sport.

Stanley inman

Ray,
Your call for consensus began when Kentucky passed it’s new regulation about raceday meds.
The last minute postponement of the new regulation to begin in 2014 ; the narrower final version that applys just to graded stakes for two year olds was due to concerns raised by horsemen representatives.
No group on either side of the table got everything they wanted.
The new regulation is a perfect example of consensus decision-making;
the Kentucky state racing commission successfully showed how consensus can be reached between divergent parties.
If we don’t recognize consensus decision making’s presence
how can we ever expect to champion it!

Stanley inman

Ray;Go back and examine when the name callin started;It didn’t begin with those advocating ending raceday meds;When truthful statements like ” needle in the neck” were used; when an open discusssion challenging the apologists about the unintended consequences and the attendant costs of using lasix went ” public”The Apologists went ballistic; Caught off guard, the name calling began.

Part of their strategy has been to make this a “class” issue;Rich against hardworking horsemenJockey club & toba vs. Non elites.This movement was not started by either groupThey joined up later when they saw a “winner”No different than their historical role within the sport.

Cass

seems to me, wealthy or not, this group of 40 people are truly caring about their horses

Cass

seems to me, wealthy or not, this group of 40 people are truly caring about their horses

Cliff

There may be “concerns” about widespread lasix use but there isn’t empirical evidence. There is evidence behind the “legitimate reasons” for lasix use. Why cater to the unsubstantiated “concerns” of a minority over treatment of something that affects seven in 10 racehorses?

Cliff

There may be “concerns” about widespread lasix use but there isn’t empirical evidence. There is evidence behind the “legitimate reasons” for lasix use. Why cater to the unsubstantiated “concerns” of a minority over treatment of something that affects seven in 10 racehorses?

Bob Hope

when are the tracks going to get involved ? any bonuses for two year olds should be predicated upon no juice !

samm

juice?? really?? juice???

Bob Hope

when are the tracks going to get involved ? any bonuses for two year olds should be predicated upon no juice !

Sean Kerr

You make great points Ray and kudos to the owners taking the stand. But I would differ with you on the “only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise”. Track veterinarians and other trainers at Belmont Park tell me that they see only about 1 or 2 in twenty horses show any signs of EIPH when scoping, i.e., only 5 to 10%. There is no legitimate reason to race any horse on Lasix period. If a horse is bleeding to that extent it needs a rest, a change in conditioning strategy, and problably taken off all of the other over-used ‘therapeutic’ medications that do cause bleeding anyway (bute, equipoise and etc). I think that 70% is an exageration and it helps perpetuate the myth that “all horses show signs of bleeding”. They don’t. But again – Kudos to the ‘Gang of Forty’.

Cliff

Objection, your honor…hearsay.

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

Over ruled…veterinary testimony is considered expert testimony and not hearsay

http://www.pricehorsecentral.com/ Warren Eves

Kudos to you Sean. First off you use your real name. I find it interesting how so many people who claim to know all about lasix, and the use of same, hide behind an alias when they tweet. I guess the professional opinions of such experts as Sheila Lyons(Founder of American College of Veterinary Sports Medicine), Sid Gustafson(Veterinary Clinic at Big Sky), Peter Curl(Hong Kong Jockey Club), Brian Stewart(Surgeon Equine Welfare & Veterinary Services at Racing Victoria), Prof Tim Morris(British Horse Racing Authority), and Amanda Simmons don’t know what they are talking about. And guess what, they also use their real names when standing for what they believe is the right thing for the sport of thoroughbred racing.

Vertigineux04

Warren,
Be careful about those professional opinions you stand behind. I have asked 6 vets who practice equine veterinary medicine within a 30 mile radius of Shiela Lyons, and no one has heard of her.

Stanley inman

Character assassination
Is that all you can bring to the discussion;
So lame

Vertigineux04

Mr. Inman,
It is a huge red flag to me, when my vet, her collegues and several others have not heard of Dr. Lyons, or her College. Why don’t you ask the vets you deal with if they know of her and let me know what they say. I am only interested in hearing opinions on both sides of the issue, from experts.

Ray,
I have seen the Blood Horse article, I have been to her website. That’s not enough to confirm that she is credible to me. There is no doubt that she is fabulously educated. I even like that she’s controversial. I know that she did a study last year on 12 horses…and cannot find anything but her opinion-in a few sentences-about what her findings were. No details, where was it done, and under what conditions, what class, age, fitness of the horses? I want know if she has any experience as a race track vet? I want to know how many horses has she’s scoped, and how many race horses who’s veterinary care she has actually participated in.
But as of yet, no vet I know has heard of her, or the College. I will continue to ask around…

desertrailrat

You are a salespersons nightmare.

The World Is Mine

Guess what? Now they have heard of her. Same as anyone else in this world, they can be unknown one day and known the next. There was once a group of people who said, “Albert Enstein? Never heard of him”

Sean Kerr

You make great points Ray and kudos to the owners taking the stand. But I would differ with you on the “only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise”. Track veterinarians and other trainers at Belmont Park tell me that they see only about 1 or 2 in twenty horses show any signs of EIPH when scoping, i.e., only 5 to 10%. There is no legitimate reason to race any horse on Lasix period. If a horse is bleeding to that extent it needs a rest, a change in conditioning strategy, and problably taken off all of the other over-used ‘therapeutic’ medications that do cause bleeding anyway (bute, equipoise and etc). I think that 70% is an exageration and it helps perpetuate the myth that “all horses show signs of bleeding”. They don’t. But again – Kudos to the ‘Gang of Forty’.

http://twitter.com/inkmarksofsu Su-Ann Khaw

Great points made, Ray and a fantastic initiative by the 40 owners and it is certainly stems from a good place and in the best interest of racing. It takes courage and foresight to say ‘no’ despite knowing it may disadvantage their 2yos in races. Then again, many champion 2yos have raced without Lasix (watched Pierro take out the AUS Triple Crown this year) and I hope the future 2yo champs will belong to one of the 40 owners who decided to stand for what they believe in.

samm

do you know if Pierro trained on lasix??

Cliff

Objection, your honor…hearsay.

http://twitter.com/inkmarksofsu Su-Ann Khaw

Great points made, Ray and a fantastic initiative by the 40 owners and it is certainly stems from a good place and in the best interest of racing. It takes courage and foresight to say ‘no’ despite knowing it may disadvantage their 2yos in races. Then again, many champion 2yos have raced without Lasix (watched Pierro take out the AUS Triple Crown this year) and I hope the future 2yo champs will belong to one of the 40 owners who decided to stand for what they believe in.

Steve

The conversation should science based and not politicized. Why would you argue that “only” seventy something percent (actually 75.4%) of Thoroughbred racehorses bleed? That is a significant number. Why are horses treated with Salix? To protect them.It is scientifically proven (Salix/furosemide) to minimize both bleeding (EIPH) and the long term effects of plural and septal fibrosis.

The 40 owners are taking a calculated risk by not running their two year olds on Salix. Why? Because it is scientifically proven that the risk of EIPH increases grealty with age and lifetime starts. Therefore the least at risk population are the two year olds. However, to give the owners credit, it is a start.

Also, depending on your circle, it is NOT commonly accepted nor scientifically proven that Salix is a performance enhancer. What is a performance enhancer? According to a recognized veterinary expert it is a drug that provides analgesia and excitation. Salix does neither of these. the counter point is that Salix enables a horse to achieve its potential when performing a significant (non natural) atheltic feat.

The medication discussion centers upon the elimination of a legal, testable, and effective medication that helps the overwhelming majority of racehorses. Wouldn’t it make better sense if veterinary science produced a study that demonstrated racehorses are better off without Salix?

But, as you know, a doule blinded gold standard veterinary study has been produced that concludes that the use of Salix HELPS horses by minimizing the effects of EIPH.

The industry should listen to the veterinary research scientists instead of basing their argument(s) to eliminate Salix on politics and the opinions of a wealthy few who represent the minority of racing and racehorses.

Tinky

You are misguided on at least two main points.

First:

“Because it is scientifically proven that the risk of EIPH increases grealty with age and lifetime starts.”

Decades (centuries, in some cases) of experience in racing overseas completely contradicts that claim. If it were the case, then older runners in Europe and elsewhere would suffer increasing respiratory problems, yet they generally do not.

Secondly:

“…it is NOT commonly accepted nor scientifically proven that Salix is a performance enhancer.”

That is patently false. Lasix is considered to be a performance enhancer by EVERY major sporting organization in the world, as well as the Mayo clinic, etc. It is nonsense to suggest that shedding significant weight just prior to a race isn’t an advantage.

samm

human lungs don’t bleed upon exertion… I come from a family of athletes.. world class ones… as in world games… national champions… state and local champions…. none have ever used performance enhancing drugs… my dad couldn’t walk or breath in his later years… my one brothers disc disintegrated in the Olympic trials… hip replacements, knee replacements… being an athlete is hard on the body… don’t mistake the use of drugs for every injury/accident on the track…. my father was pissed “all the marathons I’ve run and now I can no longer walk or breathe”!

Ben K McFadden

Family of athletes or not, your opening comment is factually and medically inaccurate.

I am not a cardio/pulmonary expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express, and I also come from a family of individuals who breathe daily (often through their mouths).

McGov

my family are mouth breathers too…I finally crossed over 5 years ago…damn nose breathing sucks…no idea how the horses do it.

samm

oh… so humans do bleed into their lungs upon exertion? Never ever saw that…. not ever in 50 years of human competition…. I am saying that to say that lasix is the cause of fractures and other maladies would be ludicrous..

Ben K McFadden

Oh…so, yes, they do. Your personal experience is anecdotal, not science. One link for your edification after fifty years:

Other more scientific articles are available if you can accept them overturning your belief system. Your father’s breathing problems may be from scarring directly to related to undiagnosed EIPH. Unlike, horses, humans are rarely scoped after highly strenuous exercise.

As previously indicated, my expertise is derived from many years of daily breathing.

Steve

Tinky,

Horses in Europe and America are the same Thoroughbred racing under different conditions. Look at most of the pedigrees. We are interconnected. It’s tiresome to hear the European superiorty mantra. They bleed less, they don’t use medication…pure rubbish. God love them but it’s a different environment and differing metrics.

Facts:

-in Ireland the flat starts are <4 per year (less than America) not racing on Salix. These horses are less stressed.

-according to the Chief Exec of the Irish Turf Club horses should train on Salix to build confidence.

-in Hong Kong they train on Clenbuterol according to John Size (trainer). Did you know that clenbuterol has steroid properties?

-as for EIPH being correlated with age and starts that is scientific. You'll have to argue that with the expert at Michigan State University.

- losing weight prior to a race may or may not be a help. In endurance races the horses ability to stay hydrated is directly correlated with its performance success.

As for performance enhancing the times of races haven't changed much over the decades. What performance has been enhanced?

A racehorse at speed processes 3 pints of blood per heart beat as the heart is pumps 220 times per minute. That's about 75 gallons of blood going through the lungs per minute. It 75% of horses end up blowing a vessel because of the pressure why not help them?

It's a tough topic and I appreciate your input.

Tinky

” It’s tiresome to hear the European superiorty mantra.”

I haven’t asserted anything of the sort. The FACT is that two-thirds of the racehorses in the world compete successfully without race day medication. If the dire claims from the pro-Lasix camp were remotely true, then almost all older horses in those jurisdictions would suffer from a progressive, debilitating disease. With rare exceptions, they don’t.

As to your bulleted list…

Horses ARE generally less stressed in other jurisdictions. Trainers in the U.S. used to give their runners a natural break over the winter months, and a wide array of issues (including bleeding, in some cases) would heal naturally and set the horse up for the following season. That, of course, is what still happens in many foreign countries. Do you imagine that it is somehow preferable to push horses to train and race year-round, and patch them up with drugs and injections?

Quoting two people is not the foundation of a serious argument. If bleeding were a serious problem in those other countries, there would be an inexorable grass-roots movement to legalize Lasix. There isn’t anything of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact, as the vast majority of owners, trainers, breeders and vets would like to see the U.S. come to its senses, and go drug-free.

It isn’t surprising that EIPH is more likely to be found as the number of starts increase, and for obvious reasons. But with the exception of the small percentage of bad bleeders (those which cannot race successfully without drugs), management is always the key. Did the Michigan State study include runners from overseas, which are managed very differently than American runners?

Horses are, in the narrow context of Lasix as a performance enhancer, no different than race cars. A horse or car with a certain size engine, moving less weight than a similarly powered animal or vehicle, has a distinct advantage. It is simple physics. It also explains why Lasix has been so badly abused over the past couple of decades in the U.S.

I would add that as Thoroughbreds tend to be highly strung, lowering their blood pressure before races also often confers an advantage vis-a-vis those that haven’t been treated with Lasix.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

*The FACT is that 2/3 of the racehorses in the world compete successfully without raceday medication. *

No! The fact is that 2/3 of the racehorses in the world never make it to the track or if they do they are never successful.

Jogging around the track is not competing successfully . No matter how many times you say it .

The fact is that those horses in your beloved rest of the world end up on the barbie mate.

I don’t know Size, but it would surprise me to learn that Clenbuterol use was widespread in training and allowed anywhere near race days in Hong Kong. I am aware of its steroidal effects.

Most European trainers would agree that training on Lasix will “build confidence” in bleeders, though I know of few who choose to use it indiscriminately.

John Gosden, who has trained both here and in the U.K. for decades now, estimates that less than 5% of his runners are “difficult” to manage without Lasix. That strikes me as a powerful affirmation that the drug is not necessary to use in order to race the vast majority of horses safely and successfully.

Ben K McFadden

The steroidal properties of clenbuterol are anabolic in nature.

Clenbuterol is used prevent permanent damage from pulmonary hemorrhaging here,in Hong Kong, and elsewhere. Here it is also widely abused and given to horses that do not need it in the believe it gives them a “bump up” and because also gives the vet $100+.

May Flower

It is classified as a stimulant and banned from all European sports.

Ben K McFadden

Yes it is a stimulant. It is an effective bronchodilator, and it also increases muscle mass and reduces fat. In SoCal it is smuggled in from Mexico in ungraded bricks which are then routinely shaved into horses’ feed. The dosage strength is unknown and unmeasured.
This practice has resulted in fatal poisonings. The horses usually have no diagnosed breathing problems, but the trainers want the muscle building and breathing efficiency.

It should be tightly regulated to treat known allergic inflammations. Horses receiving Ventipulmin (legal medical form) should be placed on the vets list. (Ventipumin is a big money maker for track vets.)

Grarick

Steve, not even to question the bulk of your response, but where are you getting your numbers? According to the most recent figures available from the International Federation of Horse Racing Authorities, horses in Ireland average 12 starts per year on the flat. Just wondering where your figure of 4 came from?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

The IFHA . :-) A global organiZation of political hacks ;-) These are the guys that have IHA ranked 4th in the world.LOL. He wasn’t even 4th best on the grounds of his home track. Some Authorities!

Lets be honest . Euros don’t want horses running on lasix & bute for one reason only. They like to eat the slow ones .

Would you care to dispute the fact that the French love to eat horses so much that they have to import horse meat. Yep. They don’t have enough local French horses to meet the demand. Oui oui , I’ll have a Goldikova on rye.

Stanley inman

So funny
(see you have a deep appreciation
for the core experience here.)

Steve

Hello Grarick,

The stats are from the Medication Summit at Belmont Park last June (2011). The number used were from a presentation given by Denis Egan of the Irish Turf Club.

Further, while broad in scope and not due to a single cause, if one looks at US racing prior to lasix (and concommitant reliance on a plethora of other meds) and compares something simple – like, number of lifetime starts – to post-lasix numbers, there has been precipitous decline.

Yet, the original “promise” of lasix was a hardier horse…of course, that was before the shine was taken off as unintended consequences began to evidence themselves.

May Flower

“EPO, for example & a scourge before testing caught up”

Testing has not caught up with EPO and other blood boosters in horse racing. Testing for EPO-type is very expensive. Clever timing avoids detection during competition.

As far as I know, the most reliable way to detect EPO-type substances during competition is to establish blood passports and records of normal red-blood cell levels well off competition in order to detect suspiciously high levels during competition.

Blood passports could be established in November for all yearlings which would cover breeze-sales and future racing.

SteveG

Didn’t mean to veer off lasix as my original post had to do with some vet’s definition of performance enhancement…

Blood passports, yes. Even with passports, which have been in use in cycling & running, there’s controversy due to interpretation of results. A thorny issue.

Without being unduly contrary to your point of view, and keeping in mind that exogenous EPO was developed, start & stop, from the late ’60′s earliest experiments through the late ’80′s when Amgen put Epogen on the market for human use, horse racing came late to the party in regard to testing - Australian tests in 2001, for example - U. of Penna. developed a test in 2006, as another example. (you can look this stuff up)

I’d say the “scourge” occurred in the ’90′s and into the next decade. Lots of recognizable names. When horses seemed to defy anaerobic reality in the stretch…

I can’t say for sure since those who practice blood doping aren’t publicizing their exploits, but I believe EPO use has declined since testing has been implemented. Expensive & not in use enough; but clearly, a deterrent given the free-for-all prior to test development.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I see your EPO argument. Thanks. If you can refer me to some reading on EPO that would be great. One scientist tells me that EPO isn’t a good performance enhancer in practice because the sludging effect doesn’t permit the oxegenated blood to get to its destinations fast enough.

An 80 plus year old eclipse award winning trainer says a big factor is that the racing environment has changed. Horses decades ago used to be rested and perhaps stayed sounded because of less stress.

Why the decline in average number of starts? A possibility is that to many horses were being bred. I had this mare and her offset knee chipped. So what did you do? I bred her. Oh to who? A sprinter. Why? Well, he only had six starts but was brilliant – and stud fee reasonable. Racing costs are so expensive that if you don’t make money early you are done for. Have we been selecting for unsoundess in this regard?

I am not sure of all the answers but do feel the challenges in racing are bigger than Salix.

Anita Xanax

Steve, I feel you are a bit confused. It is not “the opinions of a wealthy few who represent the minority of racing and racehorses” that feel Salix/Lasix is unnecessary; the WORLDWIDE MAJORITY feel that way!! The 1% are the questionable few who continue to rant for it’s use!

Take that

“…it is NOT commonly accepted nor scientifically proven that Salix is a performance enhancer.”

This is pathetic. Back in 1990 Steve Crist was writing about studies that demonstrated that Lasix was performance enhancing. Nothing has changed – it was then and is now.

Do the horses run to their ability on furosemide because the lack of EIPH blood in their lungs promotes better oxegenation while racing? Over the decades “race times” haven’t really changed. So fursosemide isn’t contributing to unrealistic performances.

So an important question is - is Salix “performance normalizing” versus performance enhancing? This is an important contrast. As the SaF study indicates furosemide helps reduce the incidence and severity of EIPH – a debilitating disease.

I am not a proponent of illegal drugs in racing. However, athletes today are pushed and need assistance. Racing’s issue isn’t Salix. It’s illegal doping. Salix ay be easier to ban than keeping up with the dopers. It’s(Salix) potential ban is low hanging fruit that may not really be adressing the problemof creating a level playing field.

See some of the other posts from the European community. Clenbuterol is used to help the horses during training. It is a broncho dialator w anabolic steriod properties. The trainers are bad guys for using it. The horses suffer EIPH and it helps. Many trainers and veterinarians says they are often trying to clear the lungs of blood so horses don’t get pneumonia. Here in America that’s even a bigger challenge as the dirt “blow back” offers tremedous insult to the horses respiratory system.

Food for thought.

Steve

Sorry..one typo.

in reference to clenbterol in overseas comunities “the trainers are NOT bad guys for using it.” My apologies.

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

I agree the studies do say that, but like some others, I wonder if a study looking at the necropsy results of racing europena horses do show these signs of increased lung damage on a regular basis. Maybe a study has looked at this, but I am not aware of it.

Sean Kerr

Steve – I would actually differ on your points: it seems that maybe the most mis-quoted and mis-understood scientific study in history is the Hinchcliffe South African study which I think you are referring to.

The study was well done and professional. But it did not support the unbridled use of Salix, and it did not suggest that when a horse never bleeds that it should be given an intense diuretic.

There is not one single study done that I am aware of, on the scale of Hinchcliffe’s that explores the hazards of depleting electrolytes and potassium before a race, and that being done after water is withheld. There is absolutely no scientific, rational or moral reason for an athlete to be subjected to this misguided practice.

The recovery time is delayed after episodes of dehydration. Could it be that this is the reason why horses race fewer races and with more time between them? I don’t know: but I do know that there is not one single study on the scale of Hinchcliffe’s to support or refute the damage done. I only know that as an athlete, whenever I suffered dehydration, that it took a whole lot out of me – and it took longer to recover.

Further to that, if anyone is seeing bleeders in this day and age, aren’t they bleeding through the Salix? So much for efficacy. 70% of horses allegedly bleeding is an exageration.

There is also, not one single study to prove or disprove that all of the other over-uses of the so-called ‘therapeutic’ medications are in fact contributing to the bleeding to the extent that bleeding occurs. If anyone thinks that legal medications are not being abused: you are in denial.

At the TVG roundtable that Ray attended several months ago, Dr. Rick Arthur said that we are using way more permitted medications that at any time in racing history. He said that the amount of drugs we are using on horses is incredible. So how many of those other drugs are in fact causing bleeding? Does stacking cause bleeding? Several Grade I level trainers I have spoken to have told me that it seems that other medications can cause bleeding – equipoise, bute, etc. Again – no study has concentrated on the bleeding caused by other side-effects.

In the Hinchcliffe study, the population of horses were selected based on common practices. Well: it wasn’t noted which horses or trainers were training with Salix and to what extent. So the sample population was not as clean or uniform as implied in the published study. What was the feeding regimen? Which horses got fed garbage by way of processed feed and which were fed pure oats? We don’t know. So, again, the sample population may have been compromised enough to skew the results.

So the conclusions do not follow: the use of Salix in horse racing on any level and for any reason is not supported by any science. It certainly does not support the use of Salix on horses that show zero signs of bleeding.

fb0252

Salix use is not supported by science–all I can tell u sir, is that when I give a bleeder lasix it can race competitively and is unable without it. u call the “studies” flawed and then claim salix is unsupported by science. if the studies r flawed, we need some better studies, possibly(?), before going off the deep end???

Steve

Hi,

Here is a direct copy of the results and conclusions from the SaF study on furosemide: (sorry that it didn’t cut and past well)

Result:Horses were substantially more likely to develop EIPH (severity score ≥ 1; oddsratio, 3.3 to 4.4) or moderate to severe EIPH (severity score ≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0)following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. Inaddition, 81 of the 120 (67.5%) horses that had EIPH after administration of saline solutionhad a reduction in EIPH severity score of at least 1 when treated with furosemide.Horses were substantially more likely to develop EIPH (severity score ≥ 1; oddsratio, 3.3 to 4.4) or moderate to severe EIPH (severity score ≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0)following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. Inaddition, 81 of the 120 (67.5%) horses that had EIPH after administration of saline solutionhad a reduction in EIPH severity score of at least 1 when treated with furosemide.≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0)following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. Inaddition, 81 of the 120 (67.5%) horses that had EIPH after administration of saline solutionhad a reduction in EIPH severity score of at least 1 when treated with furosemide.Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Results indicated that prerace administration offurosemide decreased the incidence and severity of EIPH in Thoroughbreds racing undertypical conditions in South Africa. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009;235:76–82)—Results indicated that prerace administration offurosemide decreased the incidence and severity of EIPH in Thoroughbreds racing undertypical conditions in South Africa. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009;235:76–82)J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009;235:76–82)

Hopefieldstables

At last something intelligent on the SA study. The Birks et all (2002) study is also very relevant.

fb0252

Well put, sir. Hard to say it any better! As a trainer I try to do everything I’m able to prevent bleeding It’s part of training. It’s the humane thing for the horse, and critical for the owner that’s unable to afford losing a horse to EIPH. For what fathomable reason the sport would remove from me the one effective anti-bleeding med–what exactly is the argument for that?

Cass

would you provide a link for the scientific report that states EIPH increases with age. Is it a controlled study?

Steve

Cass,

Please see the presentation by Edward Robinson, DVM. He is a foremost authority on EIPH. While this is not a “report” you will see his slide that references age and starts with EIPH.

The conversation should science based and not politicized. Why would you argue that “only” seventy something percent (actually 75.4%) of Thoroughbred racehorses bleed? That is a significant number. Why are horses treated with Salix? To protect them.It is scientifically proven (Salix/furosemide) to minimize both bleeding (EIPH) and the long term effects of plural and septal fibrosis.

The 40 owners are taking a calculated risk by not running their two year olds on Salix. Why? Because it is scientifically proven that the risk of EIPH increases grealty with age and lifetime starts. Therefore the least at risk population are the two year olds. However, to give the owners credit, it is a start.

Also, depending on your circle, it is NOT commonly accepted nor scientifically proven that Salix is a performance enhancer. What is a performance enhancer? According to a recognized veterinary expert it is a drug that provides analgesia and excitation. Salix does neither of these. the counter point is that Salix enables a horse to achieve its potential when performing a significant (non natural) atheltic feat.

The medication discussion centers upon the elimination of a legal, testable, and effective medication that helps the overwhelming majority of racehorses. Wouldn’t it make better sense if veterinary science produced a study that demonstrated racehorses are better off without Salix?

But, as you know, a doule blinded gold standard veterinary study has been produced that concludes that the use of Salix HELPS horses by minimizing the effects of EIPH.

The industry should listen to the veterinary research scientists instead of basing their argument(s) to eliminate Salix on politics and the opinions of a wealthy few who represent the minority of racing and racehorses.

Tinky

You are misguided on at least two main points.

First:

“Because it is scientifically proven that the risk of EIPH increases grealty with age and lifetime starts.”

Decades (centuries, in some cases) of experience in racing overseas completely contradicts that claim. If it were the case, then older runners in Europe and elsewhere would suffer increasing respiratory problems, yet they generally do not.

Secondly:

“…it is NOT commonly accepted nor scientifically proven that Salix is a performance enhancer.”

That is patently false. Lasix is considered to be a performance enhancer by EVERY major sporting organization in the world, as well as the Mayo clinic, etc. It is nonsense to suggest that shedding significant weight just prior to a race isn’t an advantage.

Stanley inman

Ray,Your call for consensus began when Kentucky passed it’s new regulation about raceday meds.The last minute postponement of the new regulation to begin in 2014 ; the narrower final version that applys just to graded stakes for two year olds was due to concerns raised by horsemen representatives.No group on either side of the table got everything they wanted. The new regulation is a perfect example of consensus decision-making;the Kentucky state racing commission successfully showed how consensus can be reached between divergent parties.If we don’t recognize consensus decision making’s presencehow can we ever expect to champion it!

McGov

Reminds me of Buffet openly declaring that he should pay more in taxes…that the current tax structure benefits the wealthy too much. This doesn’t mean that he’s going to start paying more taxes before required to do so…just means that he disagrees with the incredible tax breaks for the wealthy and would like to see change towards a more reasonable tax structure for everyone.
Does this make Buffet a hypocrite? Hardly. It makes him a sincere voice of reason in a climate filled with bias, self-centred opinions. It is the macro versus the micro and some people are honest enough to not only see the big picture but to not spin the truth into a web of self serving lies.

McGov

Reminds me of Buffet openly declaring that he should pay more in taxes…that the current tax structure benefits the wealthy too much. This doesn’t mean that he’s going to start paying more taxes before required to do so…just means that he disagrees with the incredible tax breaks for the wealthy and would like to see change towards a more reasonable tax structure for everyone.Does this make Buffet a hypocrite? Hardly. It makes him a sincere voice of reason in a climate filled with bias, self-centred opinions. It is the macro versus the micro and some people are honest enough to not only see the big picture but to not spin the truth into a web of self serving lies.

SteveG

Steve, with no intent to pile on, the idea that performance enhancement is characterized by providing (only) analgesia & excitation fails to define performance enhancement adequately.

Further, while broad in scope and not due to a single cause, if one looks at US racing prior to lasix (and concommitant reliance on a plethora of other meds) and compares something simple – like, number of lifetime starts – to post-lasix numbers, there has been precipitous decline.

Yet, the original “promise” of lasix was a hardier horse…of course, that was before the shine was taken off as unintended consequences began to evidence themselves.

Sean Kerr

Barry Irwin is the bravest of the group of 40. He takes the biggest risk here in standing up and speaking out. Barry has a fiduciary responsibility to the investors of Team Valor to ensure that he is doing all that he can to ensure that their horses are not placed at a disadvantage. By racing without Lasix Team Valor’s horses will be placed at a disadvantage. So people are free to question the other 39 all they want – but it is unfair to disparage Barry: he is demonstrating strength, character and courage to do what he is doing which is the right thing to do. I say God bless him.

cliff

Yes his stand against Lasix is so brave. Totally forgot about his taking to NBC for a sales pitch seconds after winning the Kentucky Derby.

Sean Kerr

Barry Irwin is the bravest of the group of 40. He takes the biggest risk here in standing up and speaking out. Barry has a fiduciary responsibility to the investors of Team Valor to ensure that he is doing all that he can to ensure that their horses are not placed at a disadvantage. By racing without Lasix Team Valor’s horses will be placed at a disadvantage. So people are free to question the other 39 all they want – but it is unfair to disparage Barry: he is demonstrating strength, character and courage to do what he is doing which is the right thing to do. I say God bless him.

Concerned observer

Reaching out to the non-elites is a good idea….except they are not at all organized, how would the elites reach them? Certainly not through the HBPA, who has dug in and is not at all open to discussion.

Second point, Elites did not get to be elite because they did not care if they won or lost.

Ray, a fine discussion and analysis of some convoluted arguments.

kyle

What I find most interesting about this latest little skirmish is the intensity of the attack on the “Foregoing Forty.” There’s a zeal directed at them usually reserved for heretics. The implications of that dynamic are fascinating…and telling.

kyle

What I find most interesting about this latest little skirmish is the intensity of the attack on the “Foregoing Forty.” There’s a zeal directed at them usually reserved for heretics. The implications of that dynamic are fascinating…and telling.

It should be noted that under the radar and unannnounced (and largely unnoted by both the media and the public) there have been owners and trainers who have raced their stock largley without Salix for years. Only the horses which had clearly demonstrated that EIPH was an issue were treated. NY raced without such medications for many decades and we all know where the great horses of yesteryear called home.

fb0252

Sam–u race u horses without lasix till the first one bleeds. then u “convert” and u’d never want to send ur horse out there if u can prevent. In Bossier city they all need EIPH treatment because of the humidity. U re right though. the debate has already been had in NY–1990–asked and answered. Giving lasix instead of their prior practices of removing water and feed for 24 hrs. pre race.

Sam

It should be noted that under the radar and unannnounced (and largely unnoted by both the media and the public) there have been owners and trainers who have raced their stock largley without Salix for years. Only the horses which had clearly demonstrated that EIPH was an issue were treated. NY raced without such medications for many decades and we all know where the great horses of yesteryear called home.

Jon Cohen

The preceding article has been bought and paid for by The Friends Of Barry Irwin.

Anita Xanax

There have been many ludicrous comments about Ray posted on his topics in the past. This takes the cake by FAR.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

It isn’t even close to some of the drivel expressed on these boards by people that know little about the game today & nothing about its past. A bunch of militant blowhards pushing the peta agenda.

Ludicrous was Ray barring a guy from talking back to the GREAT Barry Irwin. Making up a bunch of stuff about him being to uncivil to comment while letting Blow Hard Barry and his minions like Tinky run roughshod over people on his site. Sorry Ray , you probably aren’t going to like me much because I will call you out when you make blatently hypocritical statements like that .

desertrailrat

I thought the post you wrote on DRF the other day ripping Ray for banning somebody for saying something stupid about Went the Day Well’s injury being “karma” was chickens&*t, you also said you don’t post on Paulick Report, now lo and behold here you are to do your usual antagonizing of everybody while also lowering the level of discourse. You need to jump back in the ocean and stop trying to ruin everyone’s enjoyment of every racing site. That’s your main goal right fishhead? To antagonize everyone? According to another post you wrote on DRF, it is. I recall you saying that “the DRF blog is slow so I’m going to torture some newbies on other sites”. Just because Tinky didn’t “take your bait” doesn’t mean that I won’t. Sorry fishface, but you aren’t going to like me very much either if you bring your brand of snide know-it-all-ness over here too.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Thats right I said I never posted on Paulick report.

I never have until today and my first post started with first time posting. I don’t give a desertrats tail about liking or not liking you Rat. You aren’t going to be able to do anything other than what you just did . Call names ! You have no real knowledge of the game. Your game is name calling.
You recall wrong! I said Formblog was slow & I was teaZing the peta crowd on some other threads at DRF. Tinky ! hehehe! Don’t make me laugh. Tinky one of your heroes ?

Yep that was me ripping Ray for his banishment of the guy making Irwin look stupid or as Barry likes to put it . *Like a Moron*. Chicken*hit was banning the guy for standing up to Irwin when the guy said nothing that was even close to over the top.

Yep that was me that said that it was funny how such great horsemen didn’t know their horse was stronached up until two months after the fact.

Get a real argument and we might talk, until then go back to groveling to Baraynky.

Does your enjoyment of a site depend on everybody being in lockstep with Barry Irwin & Tinky ?

desertrailrat

I’m not even sure where to start with you. First of all, if you didn’t just become a Paulick report “insurgent” you would realize that I have had disagreements with Tinky and Irwin. The difference between us is that I respect their opinions although mine may differ sometimes. Some advice I would like to pass along to you is that there are people that post on here that you can learn quite a bit from, people with expertise is all areas of the game. As a handicapper you never concede to anyone, trust me I understand, but when it comes to issues you don’t know anything about sometimes you just need to shut up and read and not throw in your two cents just to incite someone.

Furthermore, although revenues from gamblers do fuel the engine of racing please don’t confuse your feeding of a tote machine or funding a ADW account with doing good for the game. Be honest, when you bet you are looking out for yourself, and yourself only. No issue with that either, it’s the spirit of parimutuel wagering. What other than that have you done for the game Mr. Black Sea Bass Jaws? Do you donate to a rescue? I do. Give me an email address and I will show you a printout (in exchange for a scan of the “document” you have that shows you are top 1% IQ-wise). Do you have constructive ideas for improving the welfare of the animals, riders and backstretch workers? Lets hear them.

Your M.O. of being caustic just to satisfy your “quotable” ego is of no use to those of us interested in intelligent discussion. If you only wish to be a blog carcinogen then so be it. Truth be told I find you incredibly obnoxious and the whole buttZ thing is not funny, cute, nor trademarked anywhere other than the DRF Ill-blog which has become Facebook for about 10-15 of you other than the fact that Facebook, like Paulick Report gets updated in real time instead of every 6 hours so I do understand your sense of boredom now that I think about it.

Want some more? If you learn anything today it is don’t mess with us New Mexico boys, we are full of pi$$ and vinegar. Or frog juice and pig juice. Either way I like this place. Don’t screw it up.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Lets see where to begin. No I don’t donate to bogus rescue shelters that are all about a job for the people that run them. I have one not far off with a bunch of walking skeletons on the property that would be better off in a can.

I do have quite a few pets of my own. I don’t make a habit of begging money to take care of them. That would be up to me . They are my property . Cigar isn’t my property.

I don’t respect Tinky’s opinions and I have my reasons for that.

There are no issues in racing that I don’t know anything about. I know something about all of it. I read all the posts and I’ve learned some medical jargon from them.;-)

When I bet I’m looking out for myself. You’re darn right I am. I already said that I was most concerned about the players.

The animals are not mine and BTW they are animals you know. Livestock. They aren’t Bambi .

The riders are paid quite well and yes some of the money they make was formerly mine.

I would support raising the scale of weights 10 lbs so people like Laffit Pincay didn’t have to survive on 4 ounces of fish or nuts a day plus all the lettuce he could eat. I’ve never liked seeing a good rider like Cory Black look 60 when he was 30 and I don’t like the idea that they are riding in a weakened state. How about some of you horse lovers start pushing for that ?

The illegal aliens working the backside are not my employees. I always paid my employees a living wage and I didn’t keep them locked up in a barn/housing and I wouldn’t hire an illegal to mow my lawn.

Intelligent discussion . I don’t see much of that here. What I see is an argument between real players and a small but vocal minority of noisy kool-aid drinkers.

As far as giving you my e-mail goes, Fat Chance. I don’t care how much money you get suckered out of by horse rescue operations.:-) Or if you don’t want to believe what is plainly obvious. Thats your business if you choose to do so . I’m pretty sure it doesn’t match the amount of vig I’ve been paying for more than 30 years.

Now let me make sure I’ve answered all your questions. Which is something that Barry Irwin & Tinky never do. BTW I haven’t called you a *moron* either , have I.

Oh yes. Want some more what ? Do you think you just put me in my place . :-) Think again rattrail. I wasn’t messing with any New Mexico boyZ, buttZ… if I get the hankerin’ in the future I’ll think of you when I do . LOL.

You find me obnoxious . No sweat . I find some people obnoxious too. See we’ve found common ground. :-)

To tell the truth thats why I broke down and posted here rather than just reading and lurking. This place is loaded with obnoxious people and the people that aren’t were being bullied by them.

I can do obnoxious with the best of them so I figured I’d fit right in. I’ll be back when the most obnoxious of all returns from the Olympics.

You have a nice day now.

RayPaulick

Feel free to give me a call if you’d like to discuss. 859 312-2102
Ray

desertrailrat

So how did the conversation go?

RayPaulick

Must have lost my number. No call.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I’ll call you from a pay phone Ray when I get around to it. I don’t want you to have my phone number :-) I’m not a real trusting guy.

Patti Martin

Usually those who do not trust without justification are those you can justifiably not trust. Look in the mirror of integrity Bsb Jaws.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Oh I have plenty of justification. You call him Patti, give him your phone number. How about putting your phone number on this blog ? Think about it Patti. What does he want to say to me that he can’t say right here ?

Let me flip your words . Usually those that blindly trust end up getting ****** under. Are you a Bernie Maddoff investor Patti ?

RayPaulick

Jon,

Let’s talk. Give me a call. 859 312-2102.

Ray

Cass

nonsense

John F. Greenhaw

I hate to throw gas on this ongoing fire, but I could not help but notice that on Sunday at Monmouth, the Majestic Light Stakes, Brazillian bred Brujo de Olleros makes his North American debut for new owners, Team Valor. It must be a misprint on the form, because it shows that he will run on Lasix?

Jon Cohen

The preceding article has been bought and paid for by The Friends Of Barry Irwin.

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

Part of the other issue with the “non-elites” is a lot of them are in partnerships on horses, and if even one member does not want to agree to the pledge….it would be hard to do.

AnnieO

I’m an ‘everyday’ trainer/owner who stopped giving Lasix to my horses a few years ago. They still won races at Gulfstream and Saratoga…and keeping horses healthy is the best way to ensure they do not bleed. Frankly, I can’t remember the last time I had one bleed after a race or breeze, and they are scoped every time. I admire the hell out of these owners for doing this, and hope the rest of the racing community follows them.

samm

I’ve read and re read this study… There is always a difference of opinion in medical opinions… this is the only real research done… so until research is done that totally discounts this research… I feel I’m doing whats best for my horses… and I’ve seen at least a half dozen horses in the stable bleed visibly… not pretty and again… a horse has a better memory than an elephant! He will remember… http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_lasix_question.pdf

Sean Kerr

SAMM, would you be willing to make all of your veterinary records public? Also – what are you feeding your horses? What is the workout regimen? What is their warm up regimen: do you all run blow-outs? The study does not support unconditional use of Salix. I bet that there are some adjustments you could make to your program that would eliminate bleeding. I know: I have seen it with my own eyes.

samm

for raceday or for anything and everything? It does depend on the horse… they are not all the same.. I have one filly that didn’t go to the track much cause she would tie up so I bought her a round pen… she went on to be a multi stakes winner. I am an athlete myself… so yes… I believe in bute, banamine and lasix if needed…. I am one to go to the barn and just watch my horses.. where and how they stand in the stall.. so they “sit” on their bucket of stall guard… you can learn alot if you “listen”….

samm

feed…. a Omeline 200… crushed oats… some flax seed..

fb0252

please be assured that one can use the most advanced management practices and most scientific training, and horses still bleed, most of them eventually if they avoid it in one particular race.

samm

I’ve read and re read this study… There is always a difference of opinion in medical opinions… this is the only real research done… so until research is done that totally discounts this research… I feel I’m doing whats best for my horses… and I’ve seen at least a half dozen horses in the stable bleed visibly… not pretty and again… a horse has a better memory than an elephant! He will remember… http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_l…

Anita Xanax

There have been many ludicrous comments about Ray posted on his topics in the past. This takes the cake by FAR.

samm

hardly an “everyday trainer” if your stock races at the 2 most elite meets…

samm

also… do your horses get regular time off? very hard to do with owners that want to keep running year round!!

Anita Xanax

Steve, I feel you are a bit confused. It is not “the opinions of a wealthy few who represent the minority of racing and racehorses” that feel Salix/Lasix is unnecessary; the WORLDWIDE MAJORITY feel that way!! The 1% are the questionable few who continue to rant for it’s use!

Lifesmajic

Everyone of these owners (and many of them are breeders) are certainly entitled to their opinions, and their stand against raceday Lasix, whatever their agenda happens to be. But I still would like to know what their plan is if they end up with any two year olds that become bleeders? How will they treat the horse? Or WILL they treat the horse? Will that horse be given time off, be sold, be turned into a riding horse? What is the plan then? There will be a lot of two year olds who will need some therapy if their owners refuse to use Lasix. And how will that play out in the “doing what’s best for the horse” scenario?

Hossracergp

You are missing the obvious. We will send them to England, France, Japan, Germany, Australia, and South America where they would magically revert back to being able to run clean and drug free once they were trained properly by people who know how to manage a race horse

And, nobody will scope them so real horseman can proudly crow about how they are no longer bleeders. And, if that fails…..they can be greenly recycled into an edible protein.

Lifesmajic

Everyone of these owners (and many of them are breeders) are certainly entitled to their opinions, and their stand against raceday Lasix, whatever their agenda happens to be. But I still would like to know what their plan is if they end up with any two year olds that become bleeders? How will they treat the horse? Or WILL they treat the horse? Will that horse be given time off, be sold, be turned into a riding horse? What is the plan then? There will be a lot of two year olds who will need some therapy if their owners refuse to use Lasix. And how will that play out in the “doing what’s best for the horse” scenario?

Scott Ramsay

All this talk about these owners “sacrificing” . . . . baloney.

What about their horses? The horses are the ones who will be harmed (sacrificed) by being denied the benefits of this medication.

Are these owners pledging to train these horses without the benefit of Lasix? Of course not. They’ll train them with it, as they do in most of the rest of the world.

Then, they are going to run them without the benefit of the medicine — taking chances with their welfare — probably substituting some kind of unproven “adjunct,” as well as withholding water from them prior to racing. Not to mention applying other ancient “remedies.” Is this behavior “good” for the horses?!

And a high percentage will therefore bleed internally, as the studies have shown, and some will bleed externally. And the scar tissue that results will lead to further bleeding and even more bleeders that we have now.

Shame, shame, shame on people who are so fixated on the politics of winning and losing and the “public perception” that they themselves are creating, and not standing up for the scientifically demonstrated welfare of the horse. Denying horses the benefit of advances in medicine is nothing short of barbaric — they would never approve of this for themselves, for their parents, for their children, or for their pets.

What self-righteous crap, and the horses are the victims.

Tinky

Funny that you should use the word “crap”:

“And the scar tissue that results will lead to further bleeding and even more bleeders that we have now.”

Given that two-thirds of the world’s racehorses do fine without race day medication, have a smaller number of bleeding episodes and bad bleeders than we do in the U.S., and tend to enjoy longer careers than our runners, your above assertion would appear to fit very well with that word.

Scott Ramsay

Read The Jockey Club’s own study seriously as well as Dr. Mark Dedomenico’s exceptional work for Thoroughbred Owners of California, available on DVD/video at the TOC web site.

“Two-thirds of the world’s racehorses” do not “do fine” without Lasix, almost all of them using it for training, and few if any of the foreign horses race under the same conditions and on the same schedules as those in the USA. In most of the rest of the world, internal bleeding is undetected at the regulatory level. Internal bleeding isn’t even part of its definition in most foreign jurisdictions.

Whoever you are, you’re on these boards all the time schilling for the few like-minded self-righteous who are intent on creating and enhancing the negative perceptions of American racing you claim to be against. I hope you will like the result in a few years, should you succeed — you will be very, very lonely then, with boutique racing and no appreciable public following — as well as commercial disaster upon disaster, and even fewer owners and breeders, because of plummeting demand for horses.

With the same rate of bleeding, except more visible.

Grarick

Scott, how can you spout such nonsense as “almost all of them using it for training”?? You are so utterly and completely wrong about this. But don’t believe me, ask Criquette Head, Andre Fabre, John Gosden, Alan Royer Dupre or any other top European trainer. Or better yet, come and see for yourself. Lasix is NOT a training tool in Europe.

Hopefieldstables

Correct !

Larry Ensor

I wish we could get one of them to go on the PR record and put this nonsense to bed once and for all.

Hopefieldstables

Criquette Head and Andre Fabre are both on the record.

“This is completely, 100 percent false,” said Christiane “Criquette”
Head, president of the European Trainers Association and a top name in
French racing for years. “I don’t use Lasix in training and no one I
know uses Lasix in training.

Andre Fabre has not run any horse in the Breeders Cup on lasix.

Tinky

As Gina noted, this:

“…almost all of them using it for training…”

is complete nonsense.

Then you continue with this:

“…few if any of the foreign horses race under the same conditions and on the same schedules as those in the USA.”

which is true. But why don’t explain how American trained and raced horses started an average of over 30 times during their careers BEFORE Lasix, while they now average around 11 lifetime starts? If racing without Lasix is such a problem for most horses (which of course it isn’t), then how can you possibly explain that?

The rest of your response is pure ad hominem.

samm

Racing was completely different back then… horses we “drawn” meaning no food or water 24-48 hrs prior to a race. I can’t do that to my horse… also… they got regular time off… and there was no such thing as air pollution! Racetracks are on highways… horses don’t watch animals in the Forrest.. they watch cars and trucks on the highway! No one wants to take time off unless they have to (don’t forget you will loose your stall). Once a horse does bleed.. damage is done… it won’t “fix” itself. My horses are like children to me… I try to do the best for them.
I only use lasix when my horse is under heavy exertion! Do you realize that their airway is extremely small and any amount of blood can restrict their breathing? I wouldn’t want to feel like I can’t breathe!! I find it amusing that it was just publicized that 2 two year old won without lasix… well if the rest of the fields did get lasix… how come they didn’t win…. I believe in responsible horsemanship… if they want to.. let them have “no lasix” races… and leave the rest to treat their horses how they feel they should be treated… to each his own…

Sean Kerr

There is not one study to support that Salix has any benefit for pollution. Period. How come horses race fine without it in Hong Kong? John Size says that he rarely ever sees a bleeder. Have you ever been to China? I have – the air is horrible. Giving an intense diuretic that depletes crucial electrolytes and potassium is ridiculous. Your logic does not hold.

samm

I’ve been to Bangkok, Brazil and Argentina… in Bangkok no one is stabled there at all! they ship in for the weekend racing… so they are out in the country.. Brazil.. country… Argentina… country…

Tinky

If your claim were true, then those runners based at Fair Hill (to use just one example) would have a big advantage.

Is there any evidence for that? No.

Larry Ensor

Tinky, you know I am with you by and large on this. I applaud that you continue to carry the torch which I laid down a while ago. But I can not dismiss “environmental”. Though I put far more weight on American training practices and race style.
Not that it has any scientific bases in fact but 2 Derby winner have come out of little Fair Hill and it hasn’t been around that long.

Tinky

I don’t dismiss it as a factor, Larry. But I do believe that it is minor relative to some others (e.g. rushing horses out of the gate to run :21 and change quarters; not giving horses time to fully heal after minor bleeding episodes, etc.).

Larry Ensor

I have not been racing in Bangkok but I have in Brazil, Peru and Argentina. Palermo and San Isidro are both located a few miles from downtown Buenos Aires. And plenty of horses are stabled around the track. The ones I have been to are “private yards”. I don’t believe the race courses provide free “public” facilities.

samm

as far as pollution… really? you don’t think it has any effect? Logically?

Don’t know what your idea of “back then” is but I worked as a groom in the late 60’s, early 70’s pre-Lasix days for mostly low level claiming trainers. Don’t ever remember being asked to with hold anything from my horses. I also worked in NY where Lasix wasn’t allowed until 1995. I am not saying it wasn’t done, desperate people do desperate things I just don’t think it should be made out as the “norm”.
Yes, I have a very good understanding of the physiology of a horse.

Concerned observer

Samm, Do you actually believe the unsubstantiated, and off the wall things you say?

Pollution is worse now than 30 years ago, really….back when in LA you could see the air you breathed?

Back when horses got time off???? Do we now have rules where you train against giving your horses time off? You are forced to keep them in training?

Please, a rational and less hysterical debate.

Anita Xanax

Tell you what, I’ll Twitter a couple EuroTrainers I knowknow and ask them if they train on Lasix but not run on it. When they get done laughing I’ll tell you what they say.

Sean Kerr

Scott: what exact evidence do you have that proves that ‘almost all of them (offshore trainers) are training with Salix? Clearly some trainers do – but I bet far from all. I travel a lot: I have yet to meet a foreign trainer that trains with Salix. To the man (and a few women) they agree that it is absolutely stupid to give an intense diuretic that depletes electrolytes and potassium before subjecting the athlete to serious exertion. There is nothing ‘self-righteous’ about it: sounds pretty rational to me. I’m afraid that you are giving in to hysteria.

Hopefieldstables

It is propaganda touted by the NHBPA and the lie is repeated over and over again in the face of correction.

desertrailrat

You mean like Japan where it’s actually a special event and the crowd sounds like the Super Bowl when they leave the gate?

Equinevet

No – “barbaric” is continuing to run horses without any time off after they bleed through lasix. “Barbaric” is running horses on 100 degree days after witholding water and giving a powerful diuretic. It’s a different world – people actually care about animals more in today’s society. Racing horses (or greyhounds) that need medication in order to compete is not acceptable to most as many surveys have shown. And greyhound racing is being eliminated state by state for humane reasons - wake up horse racing industry in North America before you end up the same way.

Scott Ramsay

All this talk about these owners “sacrificing” . . . . baloney.

What about their horses? The horses are the ones who will be harmed (sacrificed) by being denied the benefits of this medication.

Are these owners pledging to train these horses without the benefit of Lasix? Of course not. They’ll train them with it, as they do in most of the rest of the world.

Then, they are going to run them without the benefit of the medicine — taking chances with their welfare — probably substituting some kind of unproven “adjunct,” as well as withholding water from them prior to racing. Not to mention applying other ancient “remedies.” Is this behavior “good” for the horses?!

And a high percentage will therefore bleed internally, as the studies have shown, and some will bleed externally. And the scar tissue that results will lead to further bleeding and even more bleeders that we have now.

Shame, shame, shame on people who are so fixated on the politics of winning and losing and the “public perception” that they themselves are creating, and not standing up for the scientifically demonstrated welfare of the horse. Denying horses the benefit of advances in medicine is nothing short of barbaric — they would never approve of this for themselves, for their parents, for their children, or for their pets.

What self-righteous crap, and the horses are the victims.

Cliff

And hardly an “everyday trainer” if she can’t use her everyday name.

cliff

Yes his stand against Lasix is so brave. Totally forgot about his taking to NBC for a sales pitch seconds after winning the Kentucky Derby.

http://www.pricehorsecentral.com/ Warren Eves

Kudos to you Sean. First off you use your real name. I find it interesting how so many people who claim to know all about lasix, and the use of same, hide behind an alias when they tweet. I guess the professional opinions of such experts as Sheila Lyons(Founder of American College of Veterinary Sports Medicine), Sid Gustafson(Veterinary Clinic at Big Sky), Peter Curl(Hong Kong Jockey Club), Brian Stewart(Surgeon Equine Welfare & Veterinary Services at Racing Victoria), Prof Tim Morris(British Horse Racing Authority), and Amanda Simmons don’t know what they are talking about. And guess what, they also use their real names when standing for what they believe is the right thing for the sport of thoroughbred racing.

Vertigineux04

Warren,Be careful about those professional opinions you stand behind. I have asked 6 vets who practice equine veterinary medicine within a 30 mile radius of Shiela Lyons, and no one has heard of her.

Tinky

Funny that you should use the word “crap”:

“And the scar tissue that results will lead to further bleeding and even more bleeders that we have now.”

Given that two-thirds of the world’s racehorses do fine without race day medication, have a smaller number of bleeding episodes and bad bleeders than we do in the U.S., and tend to enjoy longer careers than our runners, your above assertion would appear to fit very well with that word.

Stanley inman

Character assassination Is that all you can bring to the discussion;So lame

Thekingsport

Maggie Moss said it right!

Sean Kerr

Nah – Maggie Moss has given in to hysteria and seems to evade the facts.

Thekingsport

Maggie Moss said it right!

Scott Ramsay

Read The Jockey Club’s own study seriously as well as Dr. Mark Dedomenico’s exceptional work for Thoroughbred Owners of California, available on DVD/video at the TOC web site.

“Two-thirds of the world’s racehorses” do not “do fine” without Lasix, almost all of them using it for training, and few if any of the foreign horses race under the same conditions and on the same schedules as those in the USA. In most of the rest of the world, internal bleeding is undetected at the regulatory level. Internal bleeding isn’t even part of its definition in most foreign jurisdictions.

Whoever you are, you’re on these boards all the time schilling for the few like-minded self-righteous who are intent on creating and enhancing the negative perceptions of American racing you claim to be against. I hope you will like the result in a few years, should you succeed — you will be very, very lonely then, with boutique racing and no appreciable public following — as well as commercial disaster upon disaster, and even fewer owners and breeders, because of plummeting demand for horses.

With the same rate of bleeding, except more visible.

Take that

“…it is NOT commonly accepted nor scientifically proven that Salix is a performance enhancer.”

This is pathetic. Back in 1990 Steve Crist was writing about studies that demonstrated that Lasix was performance enhancing. Nothing has changed – it was then and is now.

This proves one simple fact: The industry cannot think its way out of a paper bag.

voiceofreason

This proves one simple fact: The industry cannot think its way out of a paper bag.

The World Is Mine

Guess what? Now they have heard of her. Same as anyone else in this world, they can be unknown one day and known the next. There was once a group of people who said, “Albert Enstein? Never heard of him”

FE Davidson

Seems to me that much of the concern with the concept of doing without Lasix is based upon fear, laziness, greed and the attempt to fit the horse into the program, instead of fitting the program to the horse. Lasix has most certainly been overused, with trainers and owners using it as a matter or course, instead of limiting its use to the horses that exhibit acute EIPH. That’s where the fear of the unknown comes in.

As to laziness, there are a number of alternatives to Lasix, whether it be natural remedies, diet, or adjustments in training and running regimens. However, that takes a bit of creativity and thinking outside the envelope (and, I’m not referring to cheating)…not to mention, the accrual of additional cost.

As to greed, everyone would prefer to level the playing field by lowering the field to its lowest common denominator instead of taking the high road, as they are concerned more with the wins than the welfare of the horse. And, as per the previous point, the skewed nature of the return on investment in the business invites frugality,at the expense of the horse.

Finally, and most importantly, the industry continues to try to fit the square peg into the round hole. It certainly appears that the majority of trainers are seeking to emulate the Lucas philosophy of having a program into which each horse must fit. However, EIPH sometimes manifests itself due to over-exertion due to such things as running on a soggy turf course, or encountering hot and humid conditions which the horse may not tolerate. In those situations, taking the summer off, or refusing to run the horse on a soggy turf track can eliminate those risk factors for the affected horses. It doesn’t cure the problem, but it certainly restricts a horse’s exposure to situations in which EIPH may occur.

The key is that based upon the pervasive drugging problem in the industry, it’s time to eliminate any race-day medication as all other approaches have failed. We’re developed a breed of pharmaceutical marvels, instead of maintaining the integrity of the horse. Humans, as a species, are poor stewards of our equine partners. If the referenced owners are williing to take a stand, then its at least a start. Good luck to them.

fb0252

if u were a horse with an EIPH problem, would u want to race with lasix, or without it?

FE Davidson

Good question. If I were a horse with an EIPH problem, I wouldn’t want to run at all; at least not under the conditions known by my trainer to likely induce the problem. I’d like to breathe and not feel like I’m drowning when I’m being asked to make a move down the stretch. And, if my trainer’s sole answer was Lasix, I’d have to seriously consider becoming a behavioral problem, turning my butt to the SOB and kicking the crap out of him, throwing my exercise rider and making a 90 degree turn to the gap, so that I could be directed to an alternative career, like show jumping. Frankly, I don’t think I’d like being forced to become dehydrated prior to each race, nor would I want to be taken off my feed when I’m trying to gain enough energy to beat the nags I run against; and, I value my kidneys. But, if my trainer and owner were wiling to look at alternatives and think of me, I’d give them a chance.

desertrailrat

I rarely bust up laughing while reading PR. Sad but true, well said.

Marc

Well stated.

FE Davidson

Seems to me that much of the concern with the concept of doing without Lasix is based upon fear, laziness, greed and the attempt to fit the horse into the program, instead of fitting the program to the horse. Lasix has most certainly been overused, with trainers and owners using it as a matter or course, instead of limiting its use to the horses that exhibit acute EIPH. That’s where the fear of the unknown comes in.

As to laziness, there are a number of alternatives to Lasix, whether it be natural remedies, diet, or adjustments in training and running regimens. However, that takes a bit of creativity and thinking outside the envelope (and, I’m not referring to cheating)…not to mention, the accrual of additional cost.

As to greed, everyone would prefer to level the playing field by lowering the field to its lowest common denominator instead of taking the high road, as they are concerned more with the wins than the welfare of the horse. And, as per the previous point, the skewed nature of the return on investment in the business invites frugality,at the expense of the horse.

Finally, and most importantly, the industry continues to try to fit the square peg into the round hole. It certainly appears that the majority of trainers are seeking to emulate the Lucas philosophy of having a program into which each horse must fit. However, EIPH sometimes manifests itself due to over-exertion due to such things as running on a soggy turf course, or encountering hot and humid conditions which the horse may not tolerate. In those situations, taking the summer off, or refusing to run the horse on a soggy turf track can eliminate those risk factors for the affected horses. It doesn’t cure the problem, but it certainly restricts a horse’s exposure to situations in which EIPH may occur.

The key is that based upon the pervasive drugging problem in the industry, it’s time to eliminate any race-day medication as all other approaches have failed. We’re developed a breed of pharmaceutical marvels, instead of maintaining the integrity of the horse. Humans, as a species, are poor stewards of our equine partners. If the referenced owners are williing to take a stand, then its at least a start. Good luck to them.

Tveazey

It is about protecting the horse. If Lasix , which is also used in humans for high blood pressure, can protect the animal from internal bleeding then so be it.

Anita Xanax

Don’t get me started on the damage Lasix can do to the human body…from critical electorate imbalances to cardiac and real failure. I’m an RN ; yes I know what I’m talking about.

Anita Xanax

Read “electrolyte ” not “electorate”

samm

people live 3x as long as humans… does that not factor into it? I just got an email from a woman who has one of my old horses… for the last 13 years he has been a hunter jumper… no issues and he did run on lasix as well as adjunct meds… He looks as healthy as a horse! lol

Anita Xanax

Tell that to Life At Ten

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

LOL. Life At Ten was SPONGED !! Simple as that ! LOL. Kentucky is where they invented sponging. LOL. Her owner DeBartolo feigned ignorance LOL. Some of you people are so naive.

Anita Xanax

Now there’s a can of worms…how about some proof of that, sir? You have video? Witnesses? Admissions? What I saw was a mare tying up from electrolyte imbalance and a trainer too arrogant to scratch her. I’m well aware what spending is, I also know exactly how difficult it is to shove something up a horses nose and how much they dislike it. You explain how. THAT rodeo got overlooked in the detention barn!

Anita Xanax

*sigh* sponging not spending

RayPaulick

Bsb Jaws,

I presume you’ve turned over all the evidence you have to the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I’ve seen horses that were sponged . I have a good idea of how they carry themselves when sponged. Ever hear of My Sweet Lucy ? Trained by Frank Oliveres . Christina Oliveres’s father. Evidence ? Just my eyes ,but who should I believe the phoney reports or my lyin’ eyes. :-)

Sean Kerr

Nah – its not about protecting the horse. That is baloney. We don’t give a heart-attack/high blood pressure medicine to a human being, wait for him/her to piss away 2% of their body weight, and then force them to run as fast as they can without a proper warm up or blow-out. But do not be deceived: Salix does not protect a horse.

Tveazey

It is about protecting the horse. If Lasix , which is also used in humans for high blood pressure, can protect the animal from internal bleeding then so be it.

Vertigineux04

Mr. Inman,It is a huge red flag to me, when my vet, her collegues and several others have not heard of Dr. Lyons, or her College. Why don’t you ask the vets you deal with if they know of her and let me know what they say. I am only interested in hearing opinions on both sides of the issue, from experts.

Again don’t believe everything you read. You sound smarter than that.

RayPaulick

Jon,

Let’s talk. Give me a call. 859 312-2102.

Ray

Dr. Red

Come on, Paulick. The answer is those who have bled are allowed the only answer we currently have to help them — Lasix. The rest cannot receive Lasix until they exhibit need. Who are all these so-called fans who are critics that everyone seems to be worried about pleasing. I Dr. Red have just interviewed one (hypothetical, of course). It went as follows:C: So, Dr., you are in the race horse business?R: Have been for almost 40 years.C: Do you or your trainers give them all those drugs?R: Only when necessary to assist in overcoming bleeding.C: So you need drugs to win races?R: Let me ask you a question and see where you’re coming from with your objections to necessary medications. C: Be glad to answer as I want to clean up racing and get rid of the cheaters.R: How often do you go to the track?C: Let me think. I believe I went with a friend who is interested in that sickness about 4 years ago.R: And did you enjoy your visit?C: It wasn’t too bad. We mostly stood around a lot and I lost $12.00. Actually I should say they cheated me out of my $12.00.R: How did they cheat you?C: Well, I bet on all the favorites all day, and only two of them won, so, obviously the other six races had to be won by cheats and, by the way, all of them had been drugged to help them win. R: So you have formed your opinions from this one experience?C: Well, not entirely. I also read about all of the cheating in the papers. R: Well, it’s obvious with your vast experience and expertise we can count on you to testify to the committee if they should call on you to stop this horrendous treatment of horses.C: Absolutely! I can tell them a thing or two. R: Once you get his all cleaned up then can we count on ou to attend the races frequently and bet your money confidently?C: No, I’m not interested in that betting business so I won’t be going, but we will be feeling good that we have helped others who do.There you have it, Paulick! Quit bringing this up until there are actual changes made for good or bad. These people we are trying to appease are not or have never been part of our audience.Dr. Red

RayPaulick

Is this Dr. “Kentucky Red”? Your argument is about as useful as the product named after you.

Dr. Red

Come on, Paulick. The answer is those who have bled are allowed the only answer we currently have to help them — Lasix. The rest cannot receive Lasix until they exhibit need. Who are all these so-called fans who are critics that everyone seems to be worried about pleasing. I Dr. Red have just interviewed one (hypothetical, of course). It went as follows:C: So, Dr., you are in the race horse business?R: Have been for almost 40 years.C: Do you or your trainers give them all those drugs?R: Only when necessary to assist in overcoming bleeding.C: So you need drugs to win races?R: Let me ask you a question and see where you’re coming from with your objections to necessary medications. C: Be glad to answer as I want to clean up racing and get rid of the cheaters.R: How often do you go to the track?C: Let me think. I believe I went with a friend who is interested in that sickness about 4 years ago.R: And did you enjoy your visit?C: It wasn’t too bad. We mostly stood around a lot and I lost $12.00. Actually I should say they cheated me out of my $12.00.R: How did they cheat you?C: Well, I bet on all the favorites all day, and only two of them won, so, obviously the other six races had to be won by cheats and, by the way, all of them had been drugged to help them win. R: So you have formed your opinions from this one experience?C: Well, not entirely. I also read about all of the cheating in the papers. R: Well, it’s obvious with your vast experience and expertise we can count on you to testify to the committee if they should call on you to stop this horrendous treatment of horses.C: Absolutely! I can tell them a thing or two. R: Once you get his all cleaned up then can we count on ou to attend the races frequently and bet your money confidently?C: No, I’m not interested in that betting business so I won’t be going, but we will be feeling good that we have helped others who do.There you have it, Paulick! Quit bringing this up until there are actual changes made for good or bad. These people we are trying to appease are not or have never been part of our audience.Dr. Red

Randal

I would like to say i do’nt believe the #’s too be true,I have raced S-Breds all my young life=50yrs,you all should take a hard look at that sport;for they do not put there horses on lasix,if they do’nt need it,&or train on it.My thought is because they are exercised well prior,working.so they urinate&rid their selves of lactic acid,just to say;s-breds are raced way more and prove,it works with there stats/&i’m not sure but bet not 7% are on lasix.=don’t be afraid to post your thoughts to me,glad to hear!!lasix does help for minor bleeding;but only time&DR.GREEN/HEALS!!

Randal

I would like to say i do’nt believe the #’s too be true,I have raced S-Breds all my young life=50yrs,you all should take a hard look at that sport;for they do not put there horses on lasix,if they do’nt need it,&or train on it.My thought is because they are exercised well prior,working.so they urinate&rid their selves of lactic acid,just to say;s-breds are raced way more and prove,it works with there stats/&i’m not sure but bet not 7% are on lasix.=don’t be afraid to post your thoughts to me,glad to hear!!lasix does help for minor bleeding;but only time&DR.GREEN/HEALS!!

RayPaulick

Not sure who you are or who your vet and her colleagues are, but Blood-Horse magazine has heard of Dr. Sheila Lyons. She was featured on the cover of a September 2008 issue of the magazine for a story on injury prevention in horses. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blood-…, she was educated at Harvard Medical School and Tufts University.Is she controversial? Yes. From my understanding, she opposes some of the activities at sales of 2-year-olds in training. But I believe she has the credibility to be heard.

Grarick

Scott, how can you spout such nonsense as “almost all of them using it for training”?? You are so utterly and completely wrong about this. But don’t believe me, ask Criquette Head, Andre Fabre, John Gosden, Alan Royer Dupre or any other top European trainer. Or better yet, come and see for yourself. Lasix is NOT a training tool in Europe.

RayPaulick

Is this Dr. “Kentucky Red”? Your argument is about as useful as the product named after you.

Tinky

As Gina noted, this:

“…almost all of them using it for training…”

is complete nonsense.

Then you continue with this:

“…few if any of the foreign horses race under the same conditions and on the same schedules as those in the USA.”

which is true. But why don’t explain how American trained and raced horses started an average of over 30 times during their careers BEFORE Lasix, while they now average around 11 lifetime starts? If racing without Lasix is such a problem for most horses (which of course it isn’t), then how can you possibly explain that?

The rest of your response is pure ad hominem.

samm

do you know if Pierro trained on lasix??

Vertigineux04

Ray,I have seen the Blood Horse article, I have been to her website. That’s not enough to confirm that she is credible to me. There is no doubt that she is fabulously educated. I even like that she’s controversial. I know that she did a study last year on 12 horses…and cannot find anything but her opinion-in a few sentences-about what her findings were. No details, where was it done, and under what conditions, what class, age, fitness of the horses? I want know if she has any experience as a race track vet? I want to know how many horses has she’s scoped, and how many race horses who’s veterinary care she has actually participated in.But as of yet, no vet I know has heard of her, or the College. I will continue to ask around…

samm

This is the extent of Dr. Lyons “research”… it consists of an abstract… this is the whole thing… in its ENTIRETY! Dr. Sheila Lyons,
ACVSMR

ABSTRACT: The
measurement of packed red blood cell volume (PCV, Hct or hematocrit) and plasma
osmolality immediately preceding and then four hours after intravenous
administration of 250mg furosemide in 12 race horses was performed in order to
assess the level of dehydration caused by this diuretic. The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has
established blood testing parameters for the indication of performance
enhancement due to the artificially enhanced oxygen carrying capacity secondary
to hemoconcentration in human athletes.
Diuretics such as furosemide are banned by the WADA but artificial
hemoconcentration has been achieved through the illegal use of EPO, the
practice of blood doping, and other banned methods and practices. Since horse racing permits the use of
furosemide, this pilot study was conducted to test the theory that the horse
racing performance enhancement effect, which has been evidenced in the
scientific literature for this drug, may be due to dehydration and improved
oxygen carrying capacity achieved through hemoconcentration. The results were an increase in PCV of 6-18%
with a nonlinear increase in plasma osmolality in each of the 12 horses tested
in this pilot study. The WADA has
established the hemoconcentration effect of EPO to be in the range of 6-11%
which is considered performance enhancement in human athletics. Therefore, it appears through this pilot
study that the administration of furosemide at the dosages used for horse
racing, supports a theory of performance enhancement through artificially enhanced
oxygen carrying capacity due to hemoconcentration. A further study involving the testing of
several thousand race horses entered in races in multiple racing jurisdictions
is planned by this investigator and warranted in the interest of fairness in
horse racing.

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

Interesting abstract and findings, but I would also think electrolyte concentrations and all other blood parameters would have to be looked at, not just hemoconentration to determine if it really is performance enhancing. The hemoconentration angle makes sense, but extrapolating what is performance enhancing in humans versus horses is a bit a of stretch for me to swallow at this time anyway. Again, to me to just run an animal that would be almost chronically dehydrated could lead to more long term damage than the minor bleeding might occur. Again, I will fully admit I have no scientific evidence to back that up and it is pure conjecture on my part. Will at least be interesting to see what the larger study brings up. I do also agree with those on here saying environment and racing schedule must play a role. Staying in stalls with dust and in perhaps more air polluted areas probably has some sort of long term negative effect.

samm

This is the extent of Dr. Lyons “research”… it consists of an abstract… this is the whole thing… in its ENTIRETY! Dr. Sheila Lyons, ACVSMR

ABSTRACT: Themeasurement of packed red blood cell volume (PCV, Hct or hematocrit) and plasmaosmolality immediately preceding and then four hours after intravenousadministration of 250mg furosemide in 12 race horses was performed in order toassess the level of dehydration caused by this diuretic. The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) hasestablished blood testing parameters for the indication of performanceenhancement due to the artificially enhanced oxygen carrying capacity secondaryto hemoconcentration in human athletes. Diuretics such as furosemide are banned by the WADA but artificialhemoconcentration has been achieved through the illegal use of EPO, thepractice of blood doping, and other banned methods and practices. Since horse racing permits the use offurosemide, this pilot study was conducted to test the theory that the horseracing performance enhancement effect, which has been evidenced in thescientific literature for this drug, may be due to dehydration and improvedoxygen carrying capacity achieved through hemoconcentration. The results were an increase in PCV of 6-18%with a nonlinear increase in plasma osmolality in each of the 12 horses testedin this pilot study. The WADA hasestablished the hemoconcentration effect of EPO to be in the range of 6-11%which is considered performance enhancement in human athletics. Therefore, it appears through this pilotstudy that the administration of furosemide at the dosages used for horseracing, supports a theory of performance enhancement through artificially enhancedoxygen carrying capacity due to hemoconcentration. A further study involving the testing ofseveral thousand race horses entered in races in multiple racing jurisdictionsis planned by this investigator and warranted in the interest of fairness inhorse racing.

Howard Beale

Ok, Nero. Keep fiddling.

The Lasix defenders will keep arguing for it till they’re blue in the face and they close the racetracks behind them. The sport’s most avid fans and bettors are those most likely to think trainers are cheating and gaming the system. The casual fans, who sample on occasion but have so many other gaming and entertainment choices and in this day and age are more aware of animal rights than any generation before, know something is amiss. Sponsors? What up and coming marketing exec is standing in front of his or her boss explaining that they really need to sink millions in marketing dollars into this sport — you know, the one on the front page of the NYT with all the dead horses. The public companies for whom any investment in more space for slots is a good one and any investment in racing — better barn areas, higher purses or additional days — is a loser, will keep migrating away from racing and more toward slots. The governments (see Ontario, others) have started stripping away your subsidies. How much longer will Pennsylvania justify such a high % of gaming revenue to purses with the mess that is its racing product?

Get rid of the drugs. Make the penalties severe and real, especially for recidivists like Doug O’Neill, Steve Assmussen, etc… Look to Europe, Hong Kong and other places for best practices and spare us the excuses about the unique demands of American racing. And don’t throw the synthetic surface baby out with the Frank Stronach bathwater while your at it. Assure the public you actually care about the horses.

Bash The Jockey Club and this group of owners if you want — they are your last best hope to keep the game alive and they may be too late as it is.

Howard Beale

Ok, Nero. Keep fiddling.

The Lasix defenders will keep arguing for it till they’re blue in the face and they close the racetracks behind them. The sport’s most avid fans and bettors are those most likely to think trainers are cheating and gaming the system. The casual fans, who sample on occasion but have so many other gaming and entertainment choices and in this day and age are more aware of animal rights than any generation before, know something is amiss. Sponsors? What up and coming marketing exec is standing in front of his or her boss explaining that they really need to sink millions in marketing dollars into this sport — you know, the one on the front page of the NYT with all the dead horses. The public companies for whom any investment in more space for slots is a good one and any investment in racing — better barn areas, higher purses or additional days — is a loser, will keep migrating away from racing and more toward slots. The governments (see Ontario, others) have started stripping away your subsidies. How much longer will Pennsylvania justify such a high % of gaming revenue to purses with the mess that is its racing product?

Get rid of the drugs. Make the penalties severe and real, especially for recidivists like Doug O’Neill, Steve Assmussen, etc… Look to Europe, Hong Kong and other places for best practices and spare us the excuses about the unique demands of American racing. And don’t throw the synthetic surface baby out with the Frank Stronach bathwater while your at it. Assure the public you actually care about the horses.

Bash The Jockey Club and this group of owners if you want — they are your last best hope to keep the game alive and they may be too late as it is.

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

Over ruled…veterinary testimony is considered expert testimony and not hearsay

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

I agree the studies do say that, but like some others, I wonder if a study looking at the necropsy results of racing europena horses do show these signs of increased lung damage on a regular basis. Maybe a study has looked at this, but I am not aware of it.

Anita Xanax

Don’t get me started on the damage Lasix can do to the human body…from critical electorate imbalances to cardiac and real failure. I’m an RN ; yes I know what I’m talking about.

Anita Xanax

Read “electrolyte ” not “electorate”

Skvescovo

Looks like you are drinking the same Kool-aid as Udall….thought you were smarter than that…read the science Ray!

Sean Kerr

Read the refutations above – the science including the Hinchcliffe South African study does not in any way shape or form supports the unbridled use of Salix in America. Period. Please tell us how it is ethical or responsible to give an intense diuretic to a horse that has never shown any signs of bleeding whatsoever. It is ridiculous and not supported by any science.

Stanley inman

Sean,
How come no one addressed your point?
It’s 95, 96, 97 degrees all week and they are all running on lasix, a powerful diuretic.
Yet they twist the story back on to us and say
not running on lasix is INHUMANE!
My challenge:
Go call the humane society, be my guest.

Stanley inman

Koolaide analogy
So funny
Here’s another koolaid story;

Come to the bluegrass and walk with me
in fields full of grazing fat broodmares;
their beautiful foals at their side
and tell me
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE FOALS
Will need a “needle in the neck”
before every start in their racing career.
Do you believe that is true?
(spare me your rebuttal
about corrective surgeries, frail bloodstock, unsound stallions etc.)
Who’s hooked on koolaid, my friend?
Horsemen use the needle
to make a living,
They can do it but they can’t talk about it.

If what you are saying were true,
Horsemen would brag of their use of the needle;
But they don’t
They’re embarrassed by it;
They never brag how goin to the jugular is good for the horse
Why is that?
Because everyone knows you only go in the jugular when you are very sick;
Your analogy with measles and polio is a distortion;
Promulgated by those who think the public is too stupid to know the difference.

Skvescovo

Looks like you are drinking the same Kool-aid as Udall….thought you were smarter than that…read the science Ray!

Sean Kerr

Steve – I would actually differ on your points: it seems that maybe the most mis-quoted and mis-understood scientific study in history is the Hinchcliffe South African study which I think you are referring to.

The study was well done and professional. But it did not support the unbridled use of Salix, and it did not suggest that when a horse never bleeds that it should be given an intense diuretic.

There is not one single study done that I am aware of, on the scale of Hinchcliffe’s that explores the hazards of depleting electrolytes and potassium before a race, and that being done after water is withheld. There is absolutely no scientific, rational or moral reason for an athlete to be subjected to this misguided practice.

The recovery time is delayed after episodes of dehydration. Could it be that this is the reason why horses race fewer races and with more time between them? I don’t know: but I do know that there is not one single study on the scale of Hinchcliffe’s to support or refute the damage done. I only know that as an athlete, whenever I suffered dehydration, that it took a whole lot out of me – and it took longer to recover.

Further to that, if anyone is seeing bleeders in this day and age, aren’t they bleeding through the Salix? So much for efficacy. 70% of horses allegedly bleeding is an exageration.

There is also, not one single study to prove or disprove that all of the other over-uses of the so-called ‘therapeutic’ medications are in fact contributing to the bleeding to the extent that bleeding occurs. If anyone thinks that legal medications are not being abused: you are in denial.

At the TVG roundtable that Ray attended several months ago, Dr. Rick Arthur said that we are using way more permitted medications that at any time in racing history. He said that the amount of drugs we are using on horses is incredible. So how many of those other drugs are in fact causing bleeding? Does stacking cause bleeding? Several Grade I level trainers I have spoken to have told me that it seems that other medications can cause bleeding – equipoise, bute, etc. Again – no study has concentrated on the bleeding caused by other side-effects.

In the Hinchcliffe study, the population of horses were selected based on common practices. Well: it wasn’t noted which horses or trainers were training with Salix and to what extent. So the sample population was not as clean or uniform as implied in the published study. What was the feeding regimen? Which horses got fed garbage by way of processed feed and which were fed pure oats? We don’t know. So, again, the sample population may have been compromised enough to skew the results.

So the conclusions do not follow: the use of Salix in horse racing on any level and for any reason is not supported by any science. It certainly does not support the use of Salix on horses that show zero signs of bleeding.

samm

Racing was completely different back then… horses we “drawn” meaning no food or water 24-48 hrs prior to a race. I can’t do that to my horse… also… they got regular time off… and there was no such thing as air pollution! Racetracks are on highways… horses don’t watch animals in the Forrest.. they watch cars and trucks on the highway! No one wants to take time off unless they have to (don’t forget you will loose your stall). Once a horse does bleed.. damage is done… it won’t “fix” itself. My horses are like children to me… I try to do the best for them. I only use lasix when my horse is under heavy exertion! Do you realize that their airway is extremely small and any amount of blood can restrict their breathing? I wouldn’t want to feel like I can’t breathe!! I find it amusing that it was just publicized that 2 two year old won without lasix… well if the rest of the fields did get lasix… how come they didn’t win…. I believe in responsible horsemanship… if they want to.. let them have “no lasix” races… and leave the rest to treat their horses how they feel they should be treated… to each his own…

samm

people live 3x as long as humans… does that not factor into it? I just got an email from a woman who has one of my old horses… for the last 13 years he has been a hunter jumper… no issues and he did run on lasix as well as adjunct meds… He looks as healthy as a horse! lol

Dave Parker

Could we please have a moment of blog silence in reverence for the 40 brave leaders who pledged not to use lasix? And also their fellow travelers from PETA on this website, please? They know better than us, and they will continue to pull stunts, have “conferences,” and “hearings,” until they get their way. You dare to say lasix is not a performance enhancer and is actually good for thoroughbreds and the industry? Well, I have my fingers in my ears . . can’t hear you, nah nah nah nah nah. Oops, gotta go and consult with my female “veterinarian,” she of the vaunted bogus institutes and “colleges,” the mighty one who studies cute little dogs jumping cute little fences. That’s sports research, folks !!!

Tinky

“You dare to say lasix is not a performance enhancer…”

Those of us who support a ban on Lasix prefer to rely on facts, so those who “dare” to oppose the facts are, and will continue to be called out. There is no dispute amongst those in the reality-based community about Lasix being a performance enhancer, and no scientist or veterinarian who relies on facts could claim otherwise.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Of C-horse its a performance enhancer. If your lungs aren’t bleeding your performance is going to be enhanced. LOL. You like them to bleed we get that .

Randallawton

are you betting horses on lasix,majority of times if you are bet your lousing

Sean Kerr

Hey Dave – who are the ‘PETA’ people here? I breed and race thoroughbreds. I don’t see any comments that smack of animal rights ranting. Maybe you are giving in to a bit of hysteria?

Dave Parker

Could we please have a moment of blog silence in reverence for the 40 brave leaders who pledged not to use lasix? And also their fellow travelers from PETA on this website, please? They know better than us, and they will continue to pull stunts, have “conferences,” and “hearings,” until they get their way. You dare to say lasix is not a performance enhancer and is actually good for thoroughbreds and the industry? Well, I have my fingers in my ears . . can’t hear you, nah nah nah nah nah. Oops, gotta go and consult with my female “veterinarian,” she of the vaunted bogus institutes and “colleges,” the mighty one who studies cute little dogs jumping cute little fences. That’s sports research, folks !!!

Sean Kerr

SAMM, would you be willing to make all of your veterinary records public? Also – what are you feeding your horses? What is the workout regimen? What is their warm up regimen: do you all run blow-outs? The study does not support unconditional use of Salix. I bet that there are some adjustments you could make to your program that would eliminate bleeding. I know: I have seen it with my own eyes.

Sean Kerr

There is not one study to support that Salix has any benefit for pollution. Period. How come horses race fine without it in Hong Kong? John Size says that he rarely ever sees a bleeder. Have you ever been to China? I have – the air is horrible. Giving an intense diuretic that depletes crucial electrolytes and potassium is ridiculous. Your logic does not hold.

samm

for raceday or for anything and everything? It does depend on the horse… they are not all the same.. I have one filly that didn’t go to the track much cause she would tie up so I bought her a round pen… she went on to be a multi stakes winner. I am an athlete myself… so yes… I believe in bute, banamine and lasix if needed…. I am one to go to the barn and just watch my horses.. where and how they stand in the stall.. so they “sit” on their bucket of stall guard… you can learn alot if you “listen”….

Sean Kerr

Scott: what exact evidence do you have that proves that ‘almost all of them (offshore trainers) are training with Salix? Clearly some trainers do – but I bet far from all. I travel a lot: I have yet to meet a foreign trainer that trains with Salix. To the man (and a few women) they agree that it is absolutely stupid to give an intense diuretic that depletes electrolytes and potassium before subjecting the athlete to serious exertion. There is nothing ‘self-righteous’ about it: sounds pretty rational to me. I’m afraid that you are giving in to hysteria.

samm

I’ve been to Bangkok, Brazil and Argentina… in Bangkok no one is stabled there at all! they ship in for the weekend racing… so they are out in the country.. Brazil.. country… Argentina… country…

Sean Kerr

Nah – Maggie Moss has given in to hysteria and seems to evade the facts.

samm

as far as pollution… really? you don’t think it has any effect? Logically?

Bryan Langlois (ShelterDoc)

Interesting abstract and findings, but I would also think electrolyte concentrations and all other blood parameters would have to be looked at, not just hemoconentration to determine if it really is performance enhancing. The hemoconentration angle makes sense, but extrapolating what is performance enhancing in humans versus horses is a bit a of stretch for me to swallow at this time anyway. Again, to me to just run an animal that would be almost chronically dehydrated could lead to more long term damage than the minor bleeding might occur. Again, I will fully admit I have no scientific evidence to back that up and it is pure conjecture on my part. Will at least be interesting to see what the larger study brings up. I do also agree with those on here saying environment and racing schedule must play a role. Staying in stalls with dust and in perhaps more air polluted areas probably has some sort of long term negative effect.

Sean Kerr

Nah – its not about protecting the horse. That is baloney. We don’t give a heart-attack/high blood pressure medicine to a human being, wait for him/her to piss away 2% of their body weight, and then force them to run as fast as they can without a proper warm up or blow-out. But do not be deceived: Salix does not protect a horse.

Equinevet

No – “barbaric” is continuing to run horses without any time off after they bleed through lasix. “Barbaric” is running horses on 100 degree days after witholding water and giving a powerful diuretic. It’s a different world – people actually care about animals more in today’s society. Racing horses (or greyhounds) that need medication in order to compete is not acceptable to most as many surveys have shown. And greyhound racing is being eliminated state by state for humane reasons - wake up horse racing industry in North America before you end up the same way.

Hossracergp

You are missing the obvious. We will send them to England, France, Japan, Germany, Australia, and South America where they would magically revert back to being able to run clean and drug free once they were trained properly by people who know how to manage a race horse

And, nobody will scope them so real horseman can proudly crow about how they are no longer bleeders. And, if that fails…..they can be greenly recycled into an edible protein.

Tinky

If your claim were true, then those runners based at Fair Hill (to use just one example) would have a big advantage.

Is there any evidence for that? No.

fb0252

Well put, sir. Hard to say it any better! As a trainer I try to do everything I’m able to prevent bleeding It’s part of training. It’s the humane thing for the horse, and critical for the owner that’s unable to afford losing a horse to EIPH. For what fathomable reason the sport would remove from me the one effective anti-bleeding med–what exactly is the argument for that?

samm

feed…. a Omeline 200… crushed oats… some flax seed..

Anita Xanax

Tell that to Life At Ten

fb0252

Salix use is not supported by science–all I can tell u sir, is that when I give a bleeder lasix it can race competitively and is unable without it. u call the “studies” flawed and then claim salix is unsupported by science. if the studies r flawed, we need some better studies, possibly(?), before going off the deep end???

Anita Xanax

Tell you what, I’ll Twitter a couple EuroTrainers I knowknow and ask them if they train on Lasix but not run on it. When they get done laughing I’ll tell you what they say.

Tinky

“You dare to say lasix is not a performance enhancer…”

Those of us who support a ban on Lasix prefer to rely on facts, so those who “dare” to oppose the facts are, and will continue to be called out. There is no dispute amongst those in the reality-based community about Lasix being a performance enhancer, and no scientist or veterinarian who relies on facts could claim otherwise.

samm

juice?? really?? juice???

Sean Kerr

Read the refutations above – the science including the Hinchcliffe South African study does not in any way shape or form supports the unbridled use of Salix in America. Period. Please tell us how it is ethical or responsible to give an intense diuretic to a horse that has never shown any signs of bleeding whatsoever. It is ridiculous and not supported by any science.

David

If a belly putter helps one putt better, despite controversy and until it’s ruled out of bounds, even PGA Tour members will use it. Granted, to voluntarily put runners at a competitive disadvantage is folly regardless of how an owner weights in on the matter. The point is when and how is the issue going to be settled? Unless the JC moves to somehow tie registry to new standards and brace for inevitable litigation the issue will fester indefinitely. Racing’s threshold for chaos is well established but this promises to threaten the conduct of interstate simulcasting. Why can’t racing resolve to fix it?

Point taken but in the case of this particular game, the outcome thus far smacks of tic tac toe in that the dilemma of ‘states’ rights versus interstate commerce dependency’ remains. Where’s the answer?

Stanley inman

For the time being, until a critical mass is reached; our future resides in ideas, not individuals, or organizations where conventional responses reside.
Malcolm gladwell’s “tipping point” book is a great primer and is instructive while the fight essentially remains “underground” ala the French resistance in wwll.
Nobody expects the struggle to start at the paulick report, but I can’t think of a more important vehicle to promote reform.
Look at the size of it’s audience;virtually everyone in the sport reads it even though we don’t see them on posts.
Look how the conversation on raceday meds has evolved over the past year;
Paulick report was a key player;
Keep up the noise;
Post when you hear a lie, distortion , an untruth;
Hammer those who attack messengers;
It’s the favorite ploy of those who can’t prove their claims.
Most importantly put the horse and sport always first;
Then we battle from high ground!
I’ll see you there)

desertrailrat

Right on Stanley! This high ground you speak of….will there be an open bar? Either way, see you there. Dig your posts man.

David

If a belly putter helps one putt better, despite controversy and until it’s ruled out of bounds, even PGA Tour members will use it. Granted, to voluntarily put runners at a competitive disadvantage is folly regardless of how an owner weights in on the matter. The point is when and how is the issue going to be settled? Unless the JC moves to somehow tie registry to new standards and brace for inevitable litigation the issue will fester indefinitely. Racing’s threshold for chaos is well established but this promises to threaten the conduct of interstate simulcasting. Why can’t racing resolve to fix it?

Hey Dave – who are the ‘PETA’ people here? I breed and race thoroughbreds. I don’t see any comments that smack of animal rights ranting. Maybe you are giving in to a bit of hysteria?

samm

human lungs don’t bleed upon exertion… I come from a family of athletes.. world class ones… as in world games… national champions… state and local champions…. none have ever used performance enhancing drugs… my dad couldn’t walk or breath in his later years… my one brothers disc disintegrated in the Olympic trials… hip replacements, knee replacements… being an athlete is hard on the body… don’t mistake the use of drugs for every injury/accident on the track…. my father was pissed “all the marathons I’ve run and now I can no longer walk or breathe”!

fb0252

Sam–u race u horses without lasix till the first one bleeds. then u “convert” and u’d never want to send ur horse out there if u can prevent. In Bossier city they all need EIPH treatment because of the humidity. U re right though. the debate has already been had in NY–1990–asked and answered. Giving lasix instead of their prior practices of removing water and feed for 24 hrs. pre race.

fb0252

if u were a horse with an EIPH problem, would u want to race with lasix, or without it?

May Flower

Mandated time-off and retirement to protect horses and ethical trainers is coming.

Larry Ensor

I have not been racing in Bangkok but I have in Brazil, Peru and Argentina. Palermo and San Isidro are both located a few miles from downtown Buenos Aires. And plenty of horses are stabled around the track. The ones I have been to are “private yards”. I don’t believe the race courses provide free “public” facilities.

Steve

Tinky,

Horses in Europe and America are the same Thoroughbred racing under different conditions. Look at most of the pedigrees. We are interconnected. It’s tiresome to hear the European superiorty mantra. They bleed less, they don’t use medication…pure rubbish. God love them but it’s a different environment and differing metrics.

Facts:

-in Ireland the flat starts are <4 per year (less than America) not racing on Salix. These horses are less stressed.

-according to the Chief Exec of the Irish Turf Club horses should train on Salix to build confidence.

-in Hong Kong they train on Clenbuterol according to John Size (trainer). Did you know that clenbuterol has steroid properties?

-as for EIPH being correlated with age and starts that is scientific. You’ll have to argue that with the expert at Michigan State University.

- losing weight prior to a race may or may not be a help. In endurance races the horses ability to stay hydrated is directly correlated with its performance success.

As for performance enhancing the times of races haven’t changed much over the decades. What performance has been enhanced?

A racehorse at speed processes 3 pints of blood per heart beat as the heart is pumps 220 times per minute. That’s about 75 gallons of blood going through the lungs per minute. It 75% of horses end up blowing a vessel because of the pressure why not help them?

It’s a tough topic and I appreciate your input.

fb0252

please be assured that one can use the most advanced management practices and most scientific training, and horses still bleed, most of them eventually if they avoid it in one particular race.

FE Davidson

Good question. If I were a horse with an EIPH problem, I wouldn’t want to run at all; at least not under the conditions known by my trainer to likely induce the problem. I’d like to breathe and not feel like I’m drowning when I’m being asked to make a move down the stretch. And, if my trainer’s sole answer was Lasix, I’d have to seriously consider becoming a behavioral problem, turning my butt to the SOB and kicking the crap out of him, throwing my exercise rider and making a 90 degree turn to the gap, so that I could be directed to an alternative career, like show jumping. Frankly, I don’t think I’d like being forced to become dehydrated prior to each race, nor would I want to be taken off my feed when I’m trying to gain enough energy to beat the nags I run against; and, I value my kidneys. But, if my trainer and owner were wiling to look at alternatives and think of me, I’d give them a chance.

Larry Ensor

Don’t know what your idea of “back then” is but I worked as a groom in the late 60’s, early 70’s pre-Lasix days for mostly low level claiming trainers. Don’t ever remember being asked to with hold anything from my horses. I also worked in NY where Lasix wasn’t allowed until 1995. I am not saying it wasn’t done, desperate people do desperate things I just don’t think it should be made out as the “norm”. Yes, I have a very good understanding of the physiology of a horse.

May Flower

“EPO, for example & a scourge before testing caught up”

Testing has not caught up with EPO and other blood boosters in horse racing. Testing for EPO-type is very expensive. Clever timing avoids detection during competition.

As far as I know, the most reliable way to detect EPO-type substances during competition is to establish blood passports and records of normal red-blood cell levels well off competition in order to detect suspiciously high levels during competition.

Blood passports could be established in November for all yearlings which would cover breeze-sales and future racing.

May Flower

Performance enhancing directly and indirectly too!

Steve

Hi Steve,

I see your EPO argument. Thanks. If you can refer me to some reading on EPO that would be great. One scientist tells me that EPO isn’t a good performance enhancer in practice because the sludging effect doesn’t permit the oxegenated blood to get to its destinations fast enough.

An 80 plus year old eclipse award winning trainer says a big factor is that the racing environment has changed. Horses decades ago used to be rested and perhaps stayed sounded because of less stress.

Why the decline in average number of starts? A possibility is that to many horses were being bred. I had this mare and her offset knee chipped. So what did you do? I bred her. Oh to who? A sprinter. Why? Well, he only had six starts but was brilliant – and stud fee reasonable. Racing costs are so expensive that if you don’t make money early you are done for. Have we been selecting for unsoundess in this regard?

I am not sure of all the answers but do feel the challenges in racing are bigger than Salix.

mike

Fools, that anti lasix group are nothing more than disengenuous phonies.Just loo at the names, has been breeders of the game who rarely win anything.They’re being cheated by Todd Pletcher and all the guys winning all the big races.

Barry Irwin the total phony making money with Team Valor while most of his clients shos losses most years.
Smarten up Ray, you’ve been sucked in!

Larry Ensor

I take exception. I am a breeder but I would like to think that I am all around horsemen. I am not a has been yet, more of an also ran. All things being equal we do pretty darn good with what we have to work with. Any body that knows me knows I am a lot of things, some good, some bad but far from being disingenuous. Otherwise I would just post quips.
I find it interesting there are always a few people who find it necessary to dismiss and or attack Barry Irwin. Disgruntled investors, owners, trainers, ex-employees? If so it’s still a matter of perception of the man based on biases. Everybody pisses off somebody in the course of a life time. Successful people far more then those who take no chances or are unsuccessful. The fact is Barry Irwin is by far the most recognizable person who states the way he feels using his real name on the PR, new print, and TV. I may not always agree with him but I applaud him. No other recognizable industry name let alone a paid leader has the grape fruits to hang it out. Especially on the PR.
Again, using ones full name adds a lot of credibility.

Randallawton

I tottaly refute the idea of a horses breeding,makeing them successabletoo bleeding;totolly ironious.love to show the supposedly,equine specialists out there&or pedigree folks that think they now

Larry Ensor

Not sure what this has to do with my above post. But I tend to agree. It would take at least a life time of selective breeding to prove otherwise anyway.

mike

Fools, that anti lasix group are nothing more than disengenuous phonies.Just loo at the names, has been breeders of the game who rarely win anything.They’re being cheated by Todd Pletcher and all the guys winning all the big races.

Barry Irwin the total phony making money with Team Valor while most of his clients shos losses most years.Smarten up Ray, you’ve been sucked in!

Tinky

” It’s tiresome to hear the European superiorty mantra.”

I haven’t asserted anything of the sort. The FACT is that two-thirds of the racehorses in the world compete successfully without race day medication. If the dire claims from the pro-Lasix camp were remotely true, then almost all older horses in those jurisdictions would suffer from a progressive, debilitating disease. With rare exceptions, they don’t.

As to your bulleted list…

Horses ARE generally less stressed in other jurisdictions. Trainers in the U.S. used to give their runners a natural break over the winter months, and a wide array of issues (including bleeding, in some cases) would heal naturally and set the horse up for the following season. That, of course, is what still happens in many foreign countries. Do you imagine that it is somehow preferable to push horses to train and race year-round, and patch them up with drugs and injections?

Quoting two people is not the foundation of a serious argument. If bleeding were a serious problem in those other countries, there would be an inexorable grass-roots movement to legalize Lasix. There isn’t anything of the sort. Quite the opposite, in fact, as the vast majority of owners, trainers, breeders and vets would like to see the U.S. come to its senses, and go drug-free.

It isn’t surprising that EIPH is more likely to be found as the number of starts increase, and for obvious reasons. But with the exception of the small percentage of bad bleeders (those which cannot race successfully without drugs), management is always the key. Did the Michigan State study include runners from overseas, which are managed very differently than American runners?

Horses are, in the narrow context of Lasix as a performance enhancer, no different than race cars. A horse or car with a certain size engine, moving less weight than a similarly powered animal or vehicle, has a distinct advantage. It is simple physics. It also explains why Lasix has been so badly abused over the past couple of decades in the U.S.

I would add that as Thoroughbreds tend to be highly strung, lowering their blood pressure before races also often confers an advantage vis-a-vis those that haven’t been treated with Lasix.

Trainer

I have yet to see in all my years as a trainer how preventing a horse from bleeding during a race is harmful to the sport. Do people even realize how lasix even works? Ask a heart patient if after taking their lasix pills they feel as if they are somehow enhanced. How about the jockeys that use lasix to lose weight in order to ride? perhaps we should print in the form which jockeys are on lasix!! This thing is getting way out of control. Ban clenbuterol yes, lasix I think not.

Larry Ensor

I don’t entirely disagree. But IMO the detrimental side affects are reasonably compelling. I also don’t think this is something that should have been debated and or be decided in public forums. Another example of industry leaders have no fore sight. Not surprising considering how long it took to understand the nature and power of the internet. Now it is a matter of public opinion and perception and there is no getting around that.
It would lend a lot more credence to your statement if you used your real name. Big name the better or even a no name like myself.

Randal lawton

Randal theres many other ways too prevent bleeding/lowering blood pressure,via,nitr glycyrine,one or god ole shakem up/all wich are banned.my momand many older folks live on lasix/or would not be still around,for sure!but then they deffenatly need Pottasium.with a very good jug.i pull my horses blood every week,with a full spectrum blood work,cause they can and do change that fast.now not to forget their are vets that are with or with out great nowledge out there.just because they are a vet does’nt make them a good one per say,my thoughts

Trainer

I have yet to see in all my years as a trainer how preventing a horse from bleeding during a race is harmful to the sport. Do people even realize how lasix even works? Ask a heart patient if after taking their lasix pills they feel as if they are somehow enhanced. How about the jockeys that use lasix to lose weight in order to ride? perhaps we should print in the form which jockeys are on lasix!! This thing is getting way out of control. Ban clenbuterol yes, lasix I think not.

Marc

Well stated.

Tinky

Steve,

To be fair, let me address your specific quotes.

I don’t know Size, but it would surprise me to learn that Clenbuterol use was widespread in training and allowed anywhere near race days in Hong Kong. I am aware of its steroidal effects.

Most European trainers would agree that training on Lasix will “build confidence” in bleeders, though I know of few who choose to use it indiscriminately.

John Gosden, who has trained both here and in the U.K. for decades now, estimates that less than 5% of his runners are “difficult” to manage without Lasix. That strikes me as a powerful affirmation that the drug is not necessary to use in order to race the vast majority of horses safely and successfully.

Larry Ensor

I promised myself that I would not get caught up again in these “Groundhog day” debates around the virtues on the use of Lasix and the ban of Lasix. For the record I guess you could say I am a fence sitter but lean towards banning. I am a person who bases their decisions and or opinions on the consensus of facts and proven science. Our country at the moment is polarized politically and so is the racing industry over Lasix. Politics is subjective the debate over the use or ban of Lasix is not or should not be. The decision should be made based on facts and proven science. Unfortunately the “experts”, the science and studies are polarized also. IMO there is no clear and compelling consensus from either side. So the only thing I and other regardless of position have to work with is empirical. Mine comes from a number of years working directly with racehorses. I get on them pretty much everyday of the year. We breed, raise, break, prepare for the track, race, leg up. For a living. I also train a few Steeplechase horses none of which have run on Lasix since they came off the flat track and into my program. They all have run very competitively. Granted they only run a few times a year but when they do it is considerably harder and longer then any flat horses and with all of the jumps I would say a bit more stressful. But it is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Personally I think most modern day trainers do not know how to condition horses “properly”. Whether this is a direct cause I have no bases in fact just my opinion.
I have worked with enough horses to know that 95+% do not need to run on Lasix. I think if it was required that every horses had to be scoped after a race the finding would bare me out. But unfortunately that is not possible because more the 95% of horses run on Lasix whether they need it or not. For those that think a horse has to be scoped bleeding before getting a “Lasix cert” I suggest buying a horse and see.
“ when only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise and detected via endoscopic examination?” This maybe true but how many are a grade 1, I would bet the majority which IMO is of no concern. Please do not offer up a rebuttal saying that is just the beginning there is no bases in fact to support it. How many grade 2? Which is of a concern and will affect some horses performance but not all or even the majority. Please don’t get into the “lung scaring” defence the studies are not compelling nor absolute fact. But I don’t discount it either.
The following if from an article I read;
In the most severe circumstances, blood is visible in one or both of the horse’s nostrils. Called Epistaxis, this only appears in less than 1% of horses after heavy exercise. From 1976-95, NYRA (New York Racing Association) former head vet, Ted Hill, gathered data on the number of bleeders. With all horses racing without the aid of Lasix, the highest percentage of visual bleeders in one year was 0.3%, and the lowest was less than 0.1% – a mere 24 horses.
I feel Lasix is a performance enhancer and until it is banned and or some rules are changed not to put a horse in “jail” if they run without and then go back my flat horses will run on what ever my trainer feels is necessary. If it is kept I think it is only fair to the horse that the industry go back to when a horse had to be scoped after a RACE and found to have bled. But only a grade 3 or higher.
Alternatively the industry could start writing “Lasix condition races”, for horse with or without.
If I were given the deciding vote today it would be to ban it. And let the lord sort it out.
For those that say the sky will fall. Well, it has fallen dramatically the last couple of years and not just because of Lasix. I’ll take my chances.This whole debate is kind of like the movie, 12 angry Men. Who will persuade who?

I promised myself that I would not get caught up again in these “Groundhog day” debates around the virtues on the use of Lasix and the ban of Lasix. For the record I guess you could say I am a fence sitter but lean towards banning. I am a person who bases their decisions and or opinions on the consensus of facts and proven science. Our country at the moment is polarized politically and so is the racing industry over Lasix. Politics is subjective the debate over the use or ban of Lasix is not or should not be. The decision should be made based on facts and proven science. Unfortunately the “experts”, the science and studies are polarized also. IMO there is no clear and compelling consensus from either side. So the only thing I and other regardless of position have to work with is empirical. Mine comes from a number of years working directly with racehorses. I get on them pretty much everyday of the year. We breed, raise, break, prepare for the track, race, leg up. For a living. I also train a few Steeplechase horses none of which have run on Lasix since they came off the flat track and into my program. They all have run very competitively. Granted they only run a few times a year but when they do it is considerably harder and longer then any flat horses and with all of the jumps I would say a bit more stressful. But it is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Personally I think most modern day trainers do not know how to condition horses “properly”. Whether this is a direct cause I have no bases in fact just my opinion.

I have worked with enough horses to know that 95+% do not need to run on Lasix. I think if it was required that every horses had to be scoped after a race the finding would bare me out. But unfortunately that is not possible because more the 95% of horses run on Lasix whether they need it or not. For those that think a horse has to be scoped bleeding before getting a “Lasix cert” I suggest buying a horse and see.

“ when only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise and detected via endoscopic examination?” This maybe true but how many are a grade 1, I would bet the majority which IMO is of no concern. Please do not offer up a rebuttal saying that is just the beginning there is no bases in fact to support it. How many grade 2? Which is of a concern and will affect some horses performance but not all or even the majority. Please don’t get into the “lung scaring” defence the studies are not compelling nor absolute fact. But I don’t discount it either.

The following if from an article I read;

In the most severe circumstances, blood is visible in one or both of the horse’s nostrils. Called Epistaxis, this only appears in less than 1% of horses after heavy exercise. From 1976-95, NYRA (New York Racing Association) former head vet, Ted Hill, gathered data on the number of bleeders. With all horses racing without the aid of Lasix, the highest percentage of visual bleeders in one year was 0.3%, and the lowest was less than 0.1% – a mere 24 horses.

I feel Lasix is a performance enhancer and until it is banned and or some rules are changed not to put a horse in “jail” if they run without and then go back my flat horses will run on what ever my trainer feels is necessary. If it is kept I think it is only fair to the horse that the industry go back to when a horse had to be scoped after a RACE and found to have bled. But only a grade 3 or higher.

Alternatively the industry could start writing “Lasix condition races”, for horse with or without.

If I were given the deciding vote today it would be to ban it. And let the lord sort it out.

For those that say the sky will fall. Well, it has fallen dramatically the last couple of years and not just because of Lasix. I’ll take my chances.
This whole debate is kind of like the movie, 12 angry Men. Who will persuade who?

Larry Ensor

Sorry don’t know why it “double” post. Any way to edit?

Tinky

Larry,

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to the discussion. A contribution, I might add, that stands in blinding contrast to the one made directly after yours.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

First time posting here .
Sorry Ray, buttZ… Jon Cohen has it pegged. You allow your boy Irwin to call Moron to anybody that has him shut down then you bar the person that is making Irwin look silly. Thats a plain fact. You can’t deny it. You did it a few days ago and its quite hypocritical IMO.
Tinky, LOL. Again with the crying ad hominem . LOL . You are one of the worst . You are a masquerader ! You tend to run or clam up when faced with someone you can’t bamboZZle,buttZ… not until you throw out a little ad hominem attack. LOL.

Oh yeah , you remember me. You’ve forgotten more about racing than I’ll ever know ! LOL. Then you ran.

Barry Irwin’s 4/5 shot sans lasix was up the track Saturday !! Why no article on that ?

Not really news actually. It happens all the time with or without lasix ! LOL. Thats where most [well bet ] Valor horses end up. If you know your favorite isn’t going to lift a hoof its easy to lay against. There is more than one way to cheat ain’t that right Barry ? LOL. Me thinks you doth protest to much !! LOL.

Barry is so concerned about perception that he claims thats why he’s for a lasix ban. If he’s so concerned about perception why does he ride a confirmed woman abuser on his horses ??

Lets see some statistics on Valor favorites. Are they in line with aggregate numbers ?? I doubt it.

Now to the people talking about lifetime starts pre & post lasix. Ha Ha Ha. Purse money was nothing in those days compared to now. Horses had to run to make money. Lasix has nothing to do with it. I laugh when I hear the uneducated cry about small fields. Field siZe has decreased by less than a horse since 1950 ! Thats a fact unlike most of the BS that is spouted by the likes of Tinky and Barry and their cronies.

Barry said O’neil had damage controllers on the internet . Like he doesn’t !! LOL. I said something derogatory and true about Irwin on another blog and it took a few minutes to get no rebuttal ,buttZ… a doZen thumbs down. LOL. No rebuttal because it couldn’t be rebutted with a straight face ! Sorry folks thumb downs or up don’t move the post up or down on that board the way it does on some sites. LOL. Banding together in a clique doesn’t do you any good there.

As for the nobody girl trainer from France. LOL. Again. John Gosden trained at my home track for years . He used lasix so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

They call it exercise induced pulmonary hemmorage for a reason. It happens when a horse exerts itself to an extreme. In other countries they don’t do that. They jog around the track in a Euro Jog and run for 1/8th. Easy to have lots of Jockeys races that way. Who wants to bet that ? Not me .

Any horse that exerts itself will bleed to some extent. You can’t breed it out of them.

Now for the forty. LOL. The big names sell most of the horses they breed so its no skin off their left testicle . The Hancocks have been commercial breeders for way more than a century. These people are not heroes . They’re decendents of Robber Barrons trying to consolidate the pool of owners that can run in the big money races. Simple as that. More downsiZing more exclusion of small timers.

I’m not a trainer & I’m not an owner. I’m the most important stakeholder in the game. I’m a player. One of the guys who pays on a daily basis for the right to make a few bucks speculating on races. What I get out of racing I get honestly. So spare me the self righteous baloney Barry and the rest of you superstar trainers & owners.

Mike Cadiz

Bsb Jaws, and Jon Cohen, and Trainer and some other people here have it exactly right. And it’s a technique of Ray Paulick, and a very smart one, to drive traffic to his website with constant articles about lasix. Not saying Mr. Paulick is not doing a service for providing a forum, he is. But come on, the “owner breeders” aren’t philanthropists by any stretch of the imagination . . . pure and simple restrict the market, their stallions will be the only ones left “standing.” I’ve become convinced that “bleeding” can’t be bred out, though.

desertrailrat

The Jim Rome “smackoff” is located over at haveatake.com, it is more appropriate than this site for you as you just like to run your mouth, annoy people, and also because you are so very fond of hearing yourself talk. Give it a try!

SteveG

“First time posting here .”

What’s with the capital “Z”, old son? It’s appearance, along with the liberal use of “LOL” have distracted me from the finer points of your harangue.

Please, no need to reiterate on my account.

Larry Ensor

I promised myself that I would not get caught up again in these “Groundhog day” debates around the virtues on the use of Lasix and the ban of Lasix. For the record I guess you could say I am a fence sitter but lean towards banning. I am a person who bases their decisions and or opinions on the consensus of facts and proven science. Our country at the moment is polarized politically and so is the racing industry over Lasix. Politics is subjective the debate over the use or ban of Lasix is not or should not be. The decision should be made based on facts and proven science. Unfortunately the “experts”, the science and studies are polarized also. IMO there is no clear and compelling consensus from either side. So the only thing I and other regardless of position have to work with is empirical. Mine comes from a number of years working directly with racehorses. I get on them pretty much everyday of the year. We breed, raise, break, prepare for the track, race, leg up. For a living. I also train a few Steeplechase horses none of which have run on Lasix since they came off the flat track and into my program. They all have run very competitively. Granted they only run a few times a year but when they do it is considerably harder and longer then any flat horses and with all of the jumps I would say a bit more stressful. But it is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Personally I think most modern day trainers do not know how to condition horses “properly”. Whether this is a direct cause I have no bases in fact just my opinion. I have worked with enough horses to know that 95+% do not need to run on Lasix. I think if it was required that every horses had to be scoped after a race the finding would bare me out. But unfortunately that is not possible because more the 95% of horses run on Lasix whether they need it or not. For those that think a horse has to be scoped bleeding before getting a “Lasix cert” I suggest buying a horse and see.“ when only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise and detected via endoscopic examination?” This maybe true but how many are a grade 1, I would bet the majority which IMO is of no concern. Please do not offer up a rebuttal saying that is just the beginning there is no bases in fact to support it. How many grade 2? Which is of a concern and will affect some horses performance but not all or even the majority. Please don’t get into the “lung scaring” defence the studies are not compelling nor absolute fact. But I don’t discount it either.The following if from an article I read;In the most severe circumstances, blood is visible in one or both of the horse’s nostrils. Called Epistaxis, this only appears in less than 1% of horses after heavy exercise. From 1976-95, NYRA (New York Racing Association) former head vet, Ted Hill, gathered data on the number of bleeders. With all horses racing without the aid of Lasix, the highest percentage of visual bleeders in one year was 0.3%, and the lowest was less than 0.1% – a mere 24 horses.I feel Lasix is a performance enhancer and until it is banned and or some rules are changed not to put a horse in “jail” if they run without and then go back my flat horses will run on what ever my trainer feels is necessary. If it is kept I think it is only fair to the horse that the industry go back to when a horse had to be scoped after a RACE and found to have bled. But only a grade 3 or higher. Alternatively the industry could start writing “Lasix condition races”, for horse with or without.If I were given the deciding vote today it would be to ban it. And let the lord sort it out.For those that say the sky will fall. Well, it has fallen dramatically the last couple of years and not just because of Lasix. I’ll take my chances.This whole debate is kind of like the movie, 12 angry Men. Who will persuade who?

I promised myself that I would not get caught up again in these “Groundhog day” debates around the virtues on the use of Lasix and the ban of Lasix. For the record I guess you could say I am a fence sitter but lean towards banning. I am a person who bases their decisions and or opinions on the consensus of facts and proven science. Our country at the moment is polarized politically and so is the racing industry over Lasix. Politics is subjective the debate over the use or ban of Lasix is not or should not be. The decision should be made based on facts and proven science. Unfortunately the “experts”, the science and studies are polarized also. IMO there is no clear and compelling consensus from either side. So the only thing I and other regardless of position have to work with is empirical. Mine comes from a number of years working directly with racehorses. I get on them pretty much everyday of the year. We breed, raise, break, prepare for the track, race, leg up. For a living. I also train a few Steeplechase horses none of which have run on Lasix since they came off the flat track and into my program. They all have run very competitively. Granted they only run a few times a year but when they do it is considerably harder and longer then any flat horses and with all of the jumps I would say a bit more stressful. But it is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Personally I think most modern day trainers do not know how to condition horses “properly”. Whether this is a direct cause I have no bases in fact just my opinion.

I have worked with enough horses to know that 95+% do not need to run on Lasix. I think if it was required that every horses had to be scoped after a race the finding would bare me out. But unfortunately that is not possible because more the 95% of horses run on Lasix whether they need it or not. For those that think a horse has to be scoped bleeding before getting a “Lasix cert” I suggest buying a horse and see.

“ when only seventy-some percent of those same horses exhibit EIPH after exercise and detected via endoscopic examination?” This maybe true but how many are a grade 1, I would bet the majority which IMO is of no concern. Please do not offer up a rebuttal saying that is just the beginning there is no bases in fact to support it. How many grade 2? Which is of a concern and will affect some horses performance but not all or even the majority. Please don’t get into the “lung scaring” defence the studies are not compelling nor absolute fact. But I don’t discount it either.

The following if from an article I read;

In the most severe circumstances, blood is visible in one or both of the horse’s nostrils. Called Epistaxis, this only appears in less than 1% of horses after heavy exercise. From 1976-95, NYRA (New York Racing Association) former head vet, Ted Hill, gathered data on the number of bleeders. With all horses racing without the aid of Lasix, the highest percentage of visual bleeders in one year was 0.3%, and the lowest was less than 0.1% – a mere 24 horses.

I feel Lasix is a performance enhancer and until it is banned and or some rules are changed not to put a horse in “jail” if they run without and then go back my flat horses will run on what ever my trainer feels is necessary. If it is kept I think it is only fair to the horse that the industry go back to when a horse had to be scoped after a RACE and found to have bled. But only a grade 3 or higher.

Alternatively the industry could start writing “Lasix condition races”, for horse with or without.

If I were given the deciding vote today it would be to ban it. And let the lord sort it out.

For those that say the sky will fall. Well, it has fallen dramatically the last couple of years and not just because of Lasix. I’ll take my chances.This whole debate is kind of like the movie, 12 angry Men. Who will persuade who?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

First time posting here . Sorry Ray, buttZ… Jon Cohen has it pegged. You allow your boy Irwin to call Moron to anybody that has him shut down then you bar the person that is making Irwin look silly. Thats a plain fact. You can’t deny it. You did it a few days ago and its quite hypocritical IMO. Tinky, LOL. Again with the crying ad hominem . LOL . You are one of the worst . You are a masquerader ! You tend to run or clam up when faced with someone you can’t bamboZZle,buttZ… not until you throw out a little ad hominem attack. LOL.

Oh yeah , you remember me. You’ve forgotten more about racing than I’ll ever know ! LOL. Then you ran.

Barry Irwin’s 4/5 shot sans lasix was up the track Saturday !! Why no article on that ?

Not really news actually. It happens all the time with or without lasix ! LOL. Thats where most [well bet ] Valor horses end up. If you know your favorite isn’t going to lift a hoof its easy to lay against. There is more than one way to cheat ain’t that right Barry ? LOL. Me thinks you doth protest to much !! LOL.

Barry is so concerned about perception that he claims thats why he’s for a lasix ban. If he’s so concerned about perception why does he ride a confirmed woman abuser on his horses ??

Lets see some statistics on Valor favorites. Are they in line with aggregate numbers ?? I doubt it.

Now to the people talking about lifetime starts pre & post lasix. Ha Ha Ha. Purse money was nothing in those days compared to now. Horses had to run to make money. Lasix has nothing to do with it. I laugh when I hear the uneducated cry about small fields. Field siZe has decreased by less than a horse since 1950 ! Thats a fact unlike most of the BS that is spouted by the likes of Tinky and Barry and their cronies.

Barry said O’neil had damage controllers on the internet . Like he doesn’t !! LOL. I said something derogatory and true about Irwin on another blog and it took a few minutes to get no rebuttal ,buttZ… a doZen thumbs down. LOL. No rebuttal because it couldn’t be rebutted with a straight face ! Sorry folks thumb downs or up don’t move the post up or down on that board the way it does on some sites. LOL. Banding together in a clique doesn’t do you any good there.

As for the nobody girl trainer from France. LOL. Again. John Gosden trained at my home track for years . He used lasix so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

They call it exercise induced pulmonary hemmorage for a reason. It happens when a horse exerts itself to an extreme. In other countries they don’t do that. They jog around the track in a Euro Jog and run for 1/8th. Easy to have lots of Jockeys races that way. Who wants to bet that ? Not me .

Any horse that exerts itself will bleed to some extent. You can’t breed it out of them.

Now for the forty. LOL. The big names sell most of the horses they breed so its no skin off their left testicle . The Hancocks have been commercial breeders for way more than a century. These people are not heroes . They’re decendents of Robber Barrons trying to consolidate the pool of owners that can run in the big money races. Simple as that. More downsiZing more exclusion of small timers.

I’m not a trainer & I’m not an owner. I’m the most important stakeholder in the game. I’m a player. One of the guys who pays on a daily basis for the right to make a few bucks speculating on races. What I get out of racing I get honestly. So spare me the self righteous baloney Barry and the rest of you superstar trainers & owners.

Larry Ensor

Sorry don’t know why it “double” post. Any way to edit?

Larry Ensor

I don’t entirely disagree. But IMO the detrimental side affects are reasonably compelling. I also don’t think this is something that should have been debated and or be decided in public forums. Another example of industry leaders have no fore sight. Not surprising considering how long it took to understand the nature and power of the internet. Now it is a matter of public opinion and perception and there is no getting around that.It would lend a lot more credence to your statement if you used your real name. Big name the better or even a no name like myself.

Ben K McFadden

The steroidal properties of clenbuterol are anabolic in nature.

Clenbuterol is used prevent permanent damage from pulmonary hemorrhaging here,in Hong Kong, and elsewhere. Here it is also widely abused and given to horses that do not need it in the believe it gives them a “bump up” and because also gives the vet $100+.

Anita Xanax

Now there’s a can of worms…how about some proof of that, sir? You have video? Witnesses? Admissions? What I saw was a mare tying up from electrolyte imbalance and a trainer too arrogant to scratch her. I’m well aware what spending is, I also know exactly how difficult it is to shove something up a horses nose and how much they dislike it. You explain how. THAT rodeo got overlooked in the detention barn!

Ben K McFadden

Family of athletes or not, your opening comment is factually and medically inaccurate.

I am not a cardio/pulmonary expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express, and I also come from a family of individuals who breathe daily (often through their mouths).

SteveG

Didn’t mean to veer off lasix as my original post had to do with some vet’s definition of performance enhancement…

Blood passports, yes. Even with passports, which have been in use in cycling & running, there’s controversy due to interpretation of results. A thorny issue.

Without being unduly contrary to your point of view, and keeping in mind that exogenous EPO was developed, start & stop, from the late ’60′s earliest experiments through the late ’80′s when Amgen put Epogen on the market for human use, horse racing came late to the party in regard to testing - Australian tests in 2001, for example - U. of Penna. developed a test in 2006, as another example. (you can look this stuff up)

I’d say the “scourge” occurred in the ’90′s and into the next decade. Lots of recognizable names. When horses seemed to defy anaerobic reality in the stretch…

I can’t say for sure since those who practice blood doping aren’t publicizing their exploits, but I believe EPO use has declined since testing has been implemented. Expensive & not in use enough; but clearly, a deterrent given the free-for-all prior to test development.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Of C-horse its a performance enhancer. If your lungs aren’t bleeding your performance is going to be enhanced. LOL. You like them to bleed we get that .

Hopefieldstables

At last something intelligent on the SA study. The Birks et all (2002) study is also very relevant.

Anita Xanax

*sigh* sponging not spending

Hopefieldstables

Correct !

Ben K McFadden

Ray’s comments are objective and appropriate.

We will continue to be hypocrites and race using Lasix until the rules here change. It does enhance performance, and it reduces bleeding. I have no problem with eliminating its use, but have no desire to be a pioneer and get arrows in the back.

Martyrdom is for fanatics.

Ben K McFadden

Ray’s comments are objective and appropriate.

We will continue to be hypocrites and race using Lasix until the rules here change. It does enhance performance, and it reduces bleeding. I have no problem with eliminating its use, but have no desire to be a pioneer and get arrows in the back.

Martyrdom is for fanatics.

Larry Ensor

I take exception. I am a breeder but I would like to think that I am all around horsemen. I am not a has been yet, more of an also ran. All things being equal we do pretty darn good with what we have to work with. Any body that knows me knows I am a lot of things, some good, some bad but far from being disingenuous. Otherwise I would just post quips.I find it interesting there are always a few people who find it necessary to dismiss and or attack Barry Irwin. Disgruntled investors, owners, trainers, ex-employees? If so it’s still a matter of perception of the man based on biases. Everybody pisses off somebody in the course of a life time. Successful people far more then those who take no chances or are unsuccessful. The fact is Barry Irwin is by far the most recognizable person who states the way he feels using his real name on the PR, new print, and TV. I may not always agree with him but I applaud him. No other recognizable industry name let alone a paid leader has the grape fruits to hang it out. Especially on the PR. Again, using ones full name adds a lot of credibility.

Hopefieldstables

It is propaganda touted by the NHBPA and the lie is repeated over and over again in the face of correction.

Tinky

Larry,

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to the discussion. A contribution, I might add, that stands in blinding contrast to the one made directly after yours.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

*The FACT is that 2/3 of the racehorses in the world compete successfully without raceday medication. *

No! The fact is that 2/3 of the racehorses in the world never make it to the track or if they do they are never successful.

Jogging around the track is not competing successfully . No matter how many times you say it .

The fact is that those horses in your beloved rest of the world end up on the barbie mate.

Larry Ensor

Tinky, you know I am with you by and large on this. I applaud that you continue to carry the torch which I laid down a while ago. But I can not dismiss “environmental”. Though I put far more weight on American training practices and race style. Not that it has any scientific bases in fact but 2 Derby winner have come out of little Fair Hill and it hasn’t been around that long.

Larry Ensor

I wish we could get one of them to go on the PR record and put this nonsense to bed once and for all.

Tinky

I don’t dismiss it as a factor, Larry. But I do believe that it is minor relative to some others (e.g. rushing horses out of the gate to run :21 and change quarters; not giving horses time to fully heal after minor bleeding episodes, etc.).

Mike Cadiz

Bsb Jaws, and Jon Cohen, and Trainer and some other people here have it exactly right. And it’s a technique of Ray Paulick, and a very smart one, to drive traffic to his website with constant articles about lasix. Not saying Mr. Paulick is not doing a service for providing a forum, he is. But come on, the “owner breeders” aren’t philanthropists by any stretch of the imagination . . . pure and simple restrict the market, their stallions will be the only ones left “standing.” I’ve become convinced that “bleeding” can’t be bred out, though.

Lost In The Fog

There is absolutely nothing stopping the “non-elite” (as you describe them) from joining the movement. Participation in doing the right thing doesn’t require anyone else’s permission, just the will to do it.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

It isn’t even close to some of the drivel expressed on these boards by people that know little about the game today & nothing about its past. A bunch of militant blowhards pushing the peta agenda.

Ludicrous was Ray barring a guy from talking back to the GREAT Barry Irwin. Making up a bunch of stuff about him being to uncivil to comment while letting Blow Hard Barry and his minions like Tinky run roughshod over people on his site. Sorry Ray , you probably aren’t going to like me much because I will call you out when you make blatently hypocritical statements like that .

Hopefieldstables

Criquette Head and Andre Fabre are both on the record.

“This is completely, 100 percent false,” said Christiane “Criquette” Head, president of the European Trainers Association and a top name in French racing for years. “I don’t use Lasix in training and no one I know uses Lasix in training.

Andre Fabre has not run any horse in the Breeders Cup on lasix.

Concerned observer

Samm, Do you actually believe the unsubstantiated, and off the wall things you say?

Pollution is worse now than 30 years ago, really….back when in LA you could see the air you breathed?

Back when horses got time off???? Do we now have rules where you train against giving your horses time off? You are forced to keep them in training?

Please, a rational and less hysterical debate.

desertrailrat

I thought the post you wrote on DRF the other day ripping Ray for banning somebody for saying something stupid about Went the Day Well’s injury being “karma” was chickens&*t, you also said you don’t post on Paulick Report, now lo and behold here you are to do your usual antagonizing of everybody while also lowering the level of discourse. You need to jump back in the ocean and stop trying to ruin everyone’s enjoyment of every racing site. That’s your main goal right fishhead? To antagonize everyone? According to another post you wrote on DRF, it is. I recall you saying that “the DRF blog is slow so I’m going to torture some newbies on other sites”. Just because Tinky didn’t “take your bait” doesn’t mean that I won’t. Sorry fishface, but you aren’t going to like me very much either if you bring your brand of snide know-it-all-ness over here too.

The Jim Rome “smackoff” is located over at haveatake.com, it is more appropriate than this site for you as you just like to run your mouth, annoy people, and also because you are so very fond of hearing yourself talk. Give it a try!

SteveG

“First time posting here .”

What’s with the capital “Z”, old son? It’s appearance, along with the liberal use of “LOL” have distracted me from the finer points of your harangue.

Please, no need to reiterate on my account.

Patti Martin

Race day medications, both legal and illegal, have always been controversial in how they can provide a commpetitive edge. Common sense dictates that to compete with the opposition, all competitiors desire the same advantages. Lasix may help prevent excercise induced bleeding, however what other advantages does it also provide? The ultimate question is, are race day medications a positive or negative for the health, safety, and future of horse racing?

Patti Martin

Race day medications, both legal and illegal, have always been controversial in how they can provide a commpetitive edge. Common sense dictates that to compete with the opposition, all competitiors desire the same advantages. Lasix may help prevent excercise induced bleeding, however what other advantages does it also provide? The ultimate question is, are race day medications a positive or negative for the health, safety, and future of horse racing?

Jrmitchum

I would suggest y’all brush up on your knowledge of “Bleeders” by reading W.Robert cook,FRCVS,PHD and his work on Air flow factors. You might also look at Dr Joseph O’Dea’s(TB times,oct,30 1999) benchmark work on Bleeders.None of you have mentioned using Lasix to flush away those naughty things that will get you a fine, loss of purse and a vacation if you get caught. March on with your mud throwing.

May Flower

During the 3rd Equine Welfare and Safety Summit, Dr. Scot Waterman demonstrated how overages of bute (and other drugs) can still be present during pre-race exams –so lame but numbed horses can appear sound enough to run and may perform or perform better despite injuries– and how those overages can be lowered to legal levels with lasix before samples may be taken that afternoon.

Jrmitchum

I would suggest y’all brush up on your knowledge of “Bleeders” by reading W.Robert cook,FRCVS,PHD and his work on Air flow factors. You might also look at Dr Joseph O’Dea’s(TB times,oct,30 1999) benchmark work on Bleeders.None of you have mentioned using Lasix to flush away those naughty things that will get you a fine, loss of purse and a vacation if you get caught. March on with your mud throwing.

May Flower

It is classified as a stimulant and banned from all European sports.

RayPaulick

Feel free to give me a call if you’d like to discuss. 859 312-2102Ray

RayPaulick

Bsb Jaws,

I presume you’ve turned over all the evidence you have to the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Thats right I said I never posted on Paulick report.

I never have until today and my first post started with first time posting. I don’t give a desertrats tail about liking or not liking you Rat. You aren’t going to be able to do anything other than what you just did . Call names ! You have no real knowledge of the game. Your game is name calling. You recall wrong! I said Formblog was slow & I was teaZing the peta crowd on some other threads at DRF. Tinky ! hehehe! Don’t make me laugh. Tinky one of your heroes ?

Yep that was me ripping Ray for his banishment of the guy making Irwin look stupid or as Barry likes to put it . *Like a Moron*. Chicken*hit was banning the guy for standing up to Irwin when the guy said nothing that was even close to over the top.

Yep that was me that said that it was funny how such great horsemen didn’t know their horse was stronached up until two months after the fact.

Get a real argument and we might talk, until then go back to groveling to Baraynky.

Does your enjoyment of a site depend on everybody being in lockstep with Barry Irwin & Tinky ?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Okay Ray , I’ll do that .

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Okay Ray , I’ll do that .

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

San Diego ???

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

The capital Z is a trademark . It honors the one and only Big Z. I can’t help the lols . I’m a happy guy and I laugh a lot. Don’t let it bother you. I know plenty about the game and its history as well as how to play it. I’ll try to cut back on the lols if that pleases you.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

The capital Z is a trademark . It honors the one and only Big Z. I can’t help the lols . I’m a happy guy and I laugh a lot. Don’t let it bother you. I know plenty about the game and its history as well as how to play it. I’ll try to cut back on the lols if that pleases you.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Where do cobras & monkey frogs come from Howard ? Not North America thats for sure.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Where do cobras & monkey frogs come from Howard ? Not North America thats for sure.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I’ve seen horses that were sponged . I have a good idea of how they carry themselves when sponged. Ever hear of My Sweet Lucy ? Trained by Frank Oliveres . Christina Oliveres’s father. Evidence ? Just my eyes ,but who should I believe the phoney reports or my lyin’ eyes. :-)

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Everybody on this thread is an owner /breeder/ trainer :-) I guess I’m the only player here. Either that or first BSer around here ain’t got a chance ! LOL. And don’t anybody here try to say that ain’t funny !

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I’ve commented a lot for a 1ster today . I’m a one finger typist so I don’t want to get an exercise induced index finger hemorrhage. :-)

Shelter Doc , can you recommend something for that ? I’ll steer clear of the lady that thinks a 12 horse sample constitutes scientific research . ;-)

I’ve read the Paulick report before so I have a feel for some of the posters. If it seems I’m being a little to familiar than I apologiZe for that.

As a parting shot I’d like to ask everybody if they have ever read *The Racing methods and Maxims of Pittsburgh Phil * ?

If you haven’t [and i know most of you haven't ] then you should. After you have, tell me if you still want to go back to the dark ages of witchdoctor potions & rubber bands around the tail real tight because thats what you’re asking for .

I’ve been around long enough to span both eras . Before legal lasix I never went to the track when I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils. That may be anecdotyl but true nonetheless.

Everybody have a nice day and good luck to those of you that have ever actually made a bet .

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I’ve commented a lot for a 1ster today . I’m a one finger typist so I don’t want to get an exercise induced index finger hemorrhage. :-)

Shelter Doc , can you recommend something for that ? I’ll steer clear of the lady that thinks a 12 horse sample constitutes scientific research . ;-)

I’ve read the Paulick report before so I have a feel for some of the posters. If it seems I’m being a little to familiar than I apologiZe for that.

As a parting shot I’d like to ask everybody if they have ever read *The Racing methods and Maxims of Pittsburgh Phil * ?

If you haven’t [and i know most of you haven't ] then you should. After you have, tell me if you still want to go back to the dark ages of witchdoctor potions & rubber bands around the tail real tight because thats what you’re asking for .

I’ve been around long enough to span both eras . Before legal lasix I never went to the track when I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils. That may be anecdotyl but true nonetheless.

Everybody have a nice day and good luck to those of you that have ever actually made a bet .

“If it seems I’m being a little to [sic] familiar than [sic] I apologiZe for that.”

Too familiar? No one cares about that. But you might want to consider apologizing for some of the ridiculous content of your posts, such as this:

“Before legal lasix I never went to the track when I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils.”

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Now why would I apologiZe for that ?

Let me play the game I see being played here by some.

Do you have evidence that I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils every time I went to the track pre lasix ?

Oh you don’t ? Well then its your word against mine . Since most people familiar with your writing know that you have a militant agenda that must be advanced at any cost, including the butchering of the truth & the suffering of racehorses, I’m thinking I come out ahead in a battle of honesty and integrity with you .

I honestly admit that my main concern is the bettors being compromised by horses that will not exert themselves when running without lasix. Or if they do will unnecessarily bleed when there is a proven medication to prevent it.

You IMO are all for abusing the animal and the public.

You know Calf Manna is a performance enhancer. Bran mash is a performance enhancer too. Todd Sloane riding monkey style was a performance enhancer. Oh I’m sorry you have no idea who Todd Sloane was do you ? Is that one of the things you forgot that I’ll never know ! LOL. Google him so you can pretend you knew who he was. Isn’t that where you get all your superior knowledge Tinky? Google google google !

Hey , I’m sorry I came to your board and upset the balance of power:) You had a good thing going because you are relentless when you have a pack of wolves to run with. Not so much when you bump into someone that doesn’t give in to toothless wolves.

I’m not a fan of the like button and I don’t really care if I’m liked or disliked ,buttZ… it seems like there are a few people here that have grown weary of your mouth. Just like when we first became acquainted ;-) There is a new kid in town Tinkybelle and you aren’t going to be any better match for me this time then you were the last time. I won’t embarrass you too much this time I don’t want you to run away again . Even a bitter crusty old faker like you deserves a sanctuary.

Tinky

“Do you have evidence that I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils every time I went to the track pre lasix ?”

There is no need to present evidence, just as there would be no need to present evidence to the contrary had you claimed that you had never lost a bet, or that you see a UFO every night in California. In other words, the claim is absurd on its face.

You can continue to pollute Ray’s site with your nonsense as long as he allows it, but I feel sorry for the readers.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Oh, he’ll allow me to pollute his site alright, because like an LA Times sportswriter once said a long time ago , *I’m a very quotable guy*. I don’t need to go over the top to make a point yet I’m provacative and clever enough to make things interesting.

I’ll go on record right now and say I have lost more than one bet & I’ve never seen a UFO other than the band UFO. We don’t actually have real UFOs in California. You have to go to New Mexico or Kentucky to see those. : )

You feel sorry for the readers ! C’mon ,even your cohorts aren’t going to fall for that one.

In this episode of *GetSmarter*. Tinky trys the ooooold I’m sorry for the readers trick. Nice try Tink. You missed it by that ” much ; )

I’ll finish this by paraphrasing John Denver … more than anything else you’re sorry for yoursel-l-lf… : )

Ya’all come back now ya hear ! : )

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

That was kinda fun , buttZ … lets get serious for a moment and leave out the UFOs.

In the pre lasix days I was a minor. I only went to the track on weekends. A weekend card at SA in those days had roughly 100 horses . According to some bogus official statistics posted on this blog bleeding from the nostrils was (way under reported btw ) at something close to 1 %. Well hmmmmm. Let me do that math. 1% of 100 Hmmmmmm. Eureka!!! I have it. 1 % of 100 is 1. Isn’t that right ?

Now , when I said at least one, thats what I meant. At least one. Is it still absurd on its face Tinky ?

Tinky

Seriously? Your claim is patently absurd.

There isn’t a single professional in the sport, including myself, who observed anything remotely close to one a day pre-Lasix.

Even if the superficial numbers added up – which they don’t, as there weren’t 100 horses a day racing – there is ZERO chance that the numbers of such bleeding incidences would have been distributed evenly.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Thats right they wouldn’t be distributed exactly evenly. In the 1960s the smog was thick in the San Gabriel Valley, the weather was hot & the racing was fast. There probably were more incidences of visable blood than in some other jurisdictions.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Professional ? Stall mucking is not exactly considered a profession. I’ve mucked a few stalls in my day too Tinky. I was a construction foremen for a real Oklahoma Cowboy who had 110 head on his ranch and who bred 5O mares a year . I’ve held the twitch plenty of times so don’t try to bring up your bogus professionalism like I only know the betting end of the game. I know the game from top to bottom.

desertrailrat

Hey Mr. .3%….. its spelled foreman. Foremen is plural.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I make an occasional spelling error like anybody else. My specialty is critical thinking. You better make sure you don’t make any minor mistakes rattail because you’re on the list for a spoonful of the medicine.

Lisa Wintermote

Tinky,
My wise old Irish Gma always told me not to engage in a battle of wits with someone who has none! Just sayin… ;-)

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Good one Lisa ,pretty funny, buttZ… are you sure your granny didn’t tell you not to get in a battle of wits with *anyone* because *you* have none ? :-) just askin’ ?

Take notice Lisa ,I didn’t cry ad hominem. Like Tinky would have. :)

Just to set you straight I have a govt. document that says I have an IQ higher than 99.7 % of the people. That means you as an individual have a . 3 % chance of being in that league.

I’ll gamble you aren’t in that group and even if you are you would be up against it outwitting me.

Tinky is just getting a taste of his own medicine . If you want some of the medicine I’ll be glad to share it with you.

A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down… ;-)

Tinky

The irony is so thick, it’s difficult to penetrate.

But I’ll lay it out in a fresh post.

http://www.theracehorseexperiment.com/ Maureen Tierney

I agree that health is a performance enhancer. As is balanced riding – not even Todd Sloane’s position – as is correct hoof care (sadly lacking in racing despite the Jockey Club’s whitepaper of many years ago), as is kindness to the horse. As is proper and real conditioning, based on scientific principles – few of which are apparent at the track.

But the drugs used today – therapeutic and otherwise – are an insult to the body of the horse and cause him to be less healthy and less sound. And that is the point. It’s not whether or not a drug is a “performance enhancer”, but is it for the benefit of the horse – or just of greedy people?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I would say lasix is for the benifit of the horse.

Kindness to the animal no matter the breed is also important. I once knew an old roan saddle horse named Apollo who’s owner never came to ride him or brush him or anything .(he was a beautiful horse even when dirty) She just paid the bill to house him. He was meaner than cats**t. Going in his stall to muck it was a dangerous job. I wasn’t a ranch hand but worked for the rancher in another business. I felt sorry for old Apollo because other boarders would come and ride their horses and groom them and his wouldn’t. It took many months & many six-packs of brew for me to gain his confidence and be able to go in his stall and give him a brushing. I never rode him . He wasn’t mine ,buttZ… he was a friend of mine.

http://www.theracehorseexperiment.com/ Maureen Tierney

I am not against Lasix in principle. I do think the real cause of bleeding needs to be discovered and addressed. The fact that cutting horses and draft horses bleed make it clear that it’s NOT a speed or racing issue.

That said, I am not against raceday Bute either IF a horse is sound without it (no heat, swelling, hint of soreness – NONE) and IF the horses is not getting any other pain medication. Yes, most horses do have some minor arthritis and Bute will reduce their subclinical inflammation allowing them to perform their best. But the fact is that people abuse it, and so it should be illegal. For the good of all horses.

Randal

I will say,that lasix would not be used in t-breds that much if they had to goto a detention barn as they do in S-breds.Bleeding can be brought on by lots of things=one being other drugs&unfitness for the next stress test,like not ready,for that distance.another one that i have submitted to the white papers report,with no reply,is the taking of temps on race day,mandatory/documented,cause i’ve seen lots of horses,trainers have run with high temps,in past;or have just got over being ill.can prove it to,the trainers will say well he was’nt right cause he was sick last week;well what the hell&your saying this to the public idiot/my thought.that also with world champions.lots of times it comes from pressure that the owner puts on them;they want there horse in;no sense but it’s out there.so please evaluate,the documenting of temps on race day,easy&cost affective,for safety of are beloved athletes,&betting public.p.s careing Horsemen!!!

Randal

I will say,that lasix would not be used in t-breds that much if they had to goto a detention barn as they do in S-breds.Bleeding can be brought on by lots of things=one being other drugs&unfitness for the next stress test,like not ready,for that distance.another one that i have submitted to the white papers report,with no reply,is the taking of temps on race day,mandatory/documented,cause i’ve seen lots of horses,trainers have run with high temps,in past;or have just got over being ill.can prove it to,the trainers will say well he was’nt right cause he was sick last week;well what the hell&your saying this to the public idiot/my thought.that also with world champions.lots of times it comes from pressure that the owner puts on them;they want there horse in;no sense but it’s out there.so please evaluate,the documenting of temps on race day,easy&cost affective,for safety of are beloved athletes,&betting public.p.s careing Horsemen!!!

Come to the bluegrass and walk with mein fields full of grazing fat broodmares; their beautiful foals at their side and tell me EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE FOALS Will need a “needle in the neck”before every start in their racing career.Do you believe that is true?(spare me your rebuttal about corrective surgeries, frail bloodstock, unsound stallions etc.)Who’s hooked on koolaid, my friend?Horsemen use the needle to make a living,They can do it but they can’t talk about it.

McGov

my family are mouth breathers too…I finally crossed over 5 years ago…damn nose breathing sucks…no idea how the horses do it.

David

Point taken but in the case of this particular game, the outcome thus far smacks of tic tac toe in that the dilemma of ‘states’ rights versus interstate commerce dependency’ remains. Where’s the answer?

Stanley inman

For the time being, until a critical mass is reached; our future resides in ideas, not individuals, or organizations where conventional responses reside.Malcolm gladwell’s “tipping point” book is a great primer and is instructive while the fight essentially remains “underground” ala the French resistance in wwll.Nobody expects the struggle to start at the paulick report, but I can’t think of a more important vehicle to promote reform.Look at the size of it’s audience;virtually everyone in the sport reads it even though we don’t see them on posts.Look how the conversation on raceday meds has evolved over the past year;Paulick report was a key player;Keep up the noise;Post when you hear a lie, distortion , an untruth;Hammer those who attack messengers;It’s the favorite ploy of those who can’t prove their claims.Most importantly put the horse and sport always first;Then we battle from high ground!I’ll see you there)

Ngonzalez21

joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ngonzalez21

joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ngonzalez21

To all you bleeding hearts out there that have never been at the barn after a horse bleeds…wake up and smell the ……………

Ngonzalez21

To all you bleeding hearts out there that have never been at the barn after a horse bleeds…wake up and smell the ……………

Ben K McFadden

Yes it is a stimulant. It is an effective bronchodilator, and it also increases muscle mass and reduces fat. In SoCal it is smuggled in from Mexico in ungraded bricks which are then routinely shaved into horses’ feed. The dosage strength is unknown and unmeasured. This practice has resulted in fatal poisonings. The horses usually have no diagnosed breathing problems, but the trainers want the muscle building and breathing efficiency.

It should be tightly regulated to treat known allergic inflammations. Horses receiving Ventipulmin (legal medical form) should be placed on the vets list. (Ventipumin is a big money maker for track vets.)

Randal lawton

Randal theres many other ways too prevent bleeding/lowering blood pressure,via,nitr glycyrine,one or god ole shakem up/all wich are banned.my momand many older folks live on lasix/or would not be still around,for sure!but then they deffenatly need Pottasium.with a very good jug.i pull my horses blood every week,with a full spectrum blood work,cause they can and do change that fast.now not to forget their are vets that are with or with out great nowledge out there.just because they are a vet does’nt make them a good one per say,my thoughts

Randallawton

I tottaly refute the idea of a horses breeding,makeing them successabletoo bleeding;totolly ironious.love to show the supposedly,equine specialists out there&or pedigree folks that think they now

Randallawton

are you betting horses on lasix,majority of times if you are bet your lousing

“If it seems I’m being a little to [sic] familiar than [sic] I apologiZe for that.”

Too familiar? No one cares about that. But you might want to consider apologizing for some of the ridiculous content of your posts, such as this:

“Before legal lasix I never went to the track when I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils.”

Grarick

Steve, not even to question the bulk of your response, but where are you getting your numbers? According to the most recent figures available from the International Federation of Horse Racing Authorities, horses in Ireland average 12 starts per year on the flat. Just wondering where your figure of 4 came from?

samm

oh… so humans do bleed into their lungs upon exertion? Never ever saw that…. not ever in 50 years of human competition…. I am saying that to say that lasix is the cause of fractures and other maladies would be ludicrous..

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Now why would I apologiZe for that ?

Let me play the game I see being played here by some.

Do you have evidence that I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils every time I went to the track pre lasix ?

Oh you don’t ? Well then its your word against mine . Since most people familiar with your writing know that you have a militant agenda that must be advanced at any cost, including the butchering of the truth & the suffering of racehorses, I’m thinking I come out ahead in a battle of honesty and integrity with you .

I honestly admit that my main concern is the bettors being compromised by horses that will not exert themselves when running without lasix. Or if they do will unnecessarily bleed when there is a proven medication to prevent it.

You IMO are all for abusing the animal and the public.

You know Calf Manna is a performance enhancer. Bran mash is a performance enhancer too. Todd Sloane riding monkey style was a performance enhancer. Oh I’m sorry you have no idea who Todd Sloane was do you ? Is that one of the things you forgot that I’ll never know ! LOL. Google him so you can pretend you knew who he was. Isn’t that where you get all your superior knowledge Tinky? Google google google !

Hey , I’m sorry I came to your board and upset the balance of power:) You had a good thing going because you are relentless when you have a pack of wolves to run with. Not so much when you bump into someone that doesn’t give in to toothless wolves.

I’m not a fan of the like button and I don’t really care if I’m liked or disliked ,buttZ… it seems like there are a few people here that have grown weary of your mouth. Just like when we first became acquainted ;-) There is a new kid in town Tinkybelle and you aren’t going to be any better match for me this time then you were the last time. I won’t embarrass you too much this time I don’t want you to run away again . Even a bitter crusty old faker like you deserves a sanctuary.

Tinky

“Do you have evidence that I didn’t see at least one horse bleed through the nostrils every time I went to the track pre lasix ?”

There is no need to present evidence, just as there would be no need to present evidence to the contrary had you claimed that you had never lost a bet, or that you see a UFO every night in California. In other words, the claim is absurd on its face.

You can continue to pollute Ray’s site with your nonsense as long as he allows it, but I feel sorry for the readers.

Ben K McFadden

Oh…so, yes, they do. Your personal experience is anecdotal, not science. One link for your edification after fifty years:

Other more scientific articles are available if you can accept them overturning your belief system. Your father’s breathing problems may be from scarring directly to related to undiagnosed EIPH. Unlike, horses, humans are rarely scoped after highly strenuous exercise.

As previously indicated, my expertise is derived from many years of daily breathing.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

The IFHA . :-) A global organiZation of political hacks ;-) These are the guys that have IHA ranked 4th in the world.LOL. He wasn’t even 4th best on the grounds of his home track. Some Authorities!

Lets be honest . Euros don’t want horses running on lasix & bute for one reason only. They like to eat the slow ones .

Would you care to dispute the fact that the French love to eat horses so much that they have to import horse meat. Yep. They don’t have enough local French horses to meet the demand. Oui oui , I’ll have a Goldikova on rye.

May Flower

During the 3rd Equine Welfare and Safety Summit, Dr. Scot Waterman demonstrated how overages of bute (and other drugs) can still be present during pre-race exams –so lame but numbed horses can appear sound enough to run and may perform or perform better despite injuries– and how those overages can be lowered to legal levels with lasix before samples may be taken that afternoon.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Oh, he’ll allow me to pollute his site alright, because like an LA Times sportswriter once said a long time ago , *I’m a very quotable guy*. I don’t need to go over the top to make a point yet I’m provacative and clever enough to make things interesting.

I’ll go on record right now and say I have lost more than one bet & I’ve never seen a UFO other than the band UFO. We don’t actually have real UFOs in California. You have to go to New Mexico or Kentucky to see those. : )

You feel sorry for the readers ! C’mon ,even your cohorts aren’t going to fall for that one.

In this episode of *GetSmarter*. Tinky trys the ooooold I’m sorry for the readers trick. Nice try Tink. You missed it by that ” much ; )

I’ll finish this by paraphrasing John Denver … more than anything else you’re sorry for yoursel-l-lf… : )

Ya’all come back now ya hear ! : )

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

That was kinda fun , buttZ … lets get serious for a moment and leave out the UFOs.

In the pre lasix days I was a minor. I only went to the track on weekends. A weekend card at SA in those days had roughly 100 horses . According to some bogus official statistics posted on this blog bleeding from the nostrils was (way under reported btw ) at something close to 1 %. Well hmmmmm. Let me do that math. 1% of 100 Hmmmmmm. Eureka!!! I have it. 1 % of 100 is 1. Isn’t that right ?

Now , when I said at least one, thats what I meant. At least one. Is it still absurd on its face Tinky ?

Cass

nonsense

Cass

would you provide a link for the scientific report that states EIPH increases with age. Is it a controlled study?

Cass

Racetrack Veterinarians will lose a great deal of money if use of lasix is ever prevented. As they are the only ones allowed to give it and as 95% of horses are using it, I would think its their bread and butter drug

Hossracergp

If you really think this is true, then I am guessing you’ve never paid a vet bill for a horse on the track. Bleeding won’t magically cease to exist if lasix is illegal, so something will be used in an effort to control bleeding beyond hay, oats, water and the draw.

Cass

Racetrack Veterinarians will lose a great deal of money if use of lasix is ever prevented. As they are the only ones allowed to give it and as 95% of horses are using it, I would think its their bread and butter drug

Barry

I just read this entire thread. I think expressions like “bought and paid for by The Friends Of Barry Irwin” are extreme. As Mr. Irwin is an advertiser on this site, obviously there is a bit of a conflict. But bought and paid for intimates something fraudulent which I don’t see here on Ray’s website. I do find the tone nasty. Mr. Irwin brings a lot of that on himself, as he comes across as being a bit arrogant and could certainly use someone to assist him with PR. He is with out a doubt one of the most successful owners of our time, and his purchasing record is absolutely outstanding. So some of the attacks on him are unwarranted. I do believe the pledge is a good start if for no other reason to study those animals and see how they do as well as the percentages of bleeders in this group. It will be interesting to see if this pledge continues on through these animal’s entire career. I suspect the economics and fiduciary responsibilities of those managing a stable will not allow them to continue. The triple crown is too grueling and it will be hard to win a classic sans lasix.

On the other side of the coin, the people who seem to be on Mr. Irwin’s side seem equally caustic. I am not sure if they are friends, in his employ, or just plain angry. They seem to dismiss every point if it doesn’t 100% agree with their no lasix stand. The Euro-American comparison is not apples to apples. It is impossible to say because something works there it has to work here. You can’t ignore the number of starts and other factors. For instance a 5,000 claimer can’t run 4-5 time a year, though of course it would reduce bleeding.

Whatever side you are on, you have to realize this isn’t a cut and dry issue. I think we all want to see the sport flourish. So lets try and be civil. Most of the general population are not racing fans. We need to present a united front wherever possible and not give ammunition to the PETAs of the world who want to abolish our sport. It has happened to greyhound racing in some jurisdictions and is not totally out of the question for horse racing.

Lisa Wintermote

Well said and I couldn’t agree more!

Barry

I just read this entire thread. I think expressions like “bought and paid for by The Friends Of Barry Irwin” are extreme. As Mr. Irwin is an advertiser on this site, obviously there is a bit of a conflict. But bought and paid for intimates something fraudulent which I don’t see here on Ray’s website. I do find the tone nasty. Mr. Irwin brings a lot of that on himself, as he comes across as being a bit arrogant and could certainly use someone to assist him with PR. He is with out a doubt one of the most successful owners of our time, and his purchasing record is absolutely outstanding. So some of the attacks on him are unwarranted. I do believe the pledge is a good start if for no other reason to study those animals and see how they do as well as the percentages of bleeders in this group. It will be interesting to see if this pledge continues on through these animal’s entire career. I suspect the economics and fiduciary responsibilities of those managing a stable will not allow them to continue. The triple crown is too grueling and it will be hard to win a classic sans lasix.

On the other side of the coin, the people who seem to be on Mr. Irwin’s side seem equally caustic. I am not sure if they are friends, in his employ, or just plain angry. They seem to dismiss every point if it doesn’t 100% agree with their no lasix stand. The Euro-American comparison is not apples to apples. It is impossible to say because something works there it has to work here. You can’t ignore the number of starts and other factors. For instance a 5,000 claimer can’t run 4-5 time a year, though of course it would reduce bleeding.

Whatever side you are on, you have to realize this isn’t a cut and dry issue. I think we all want to see the sport flourish. So lets try and be civil. Most of the general population are not racing fans. We need to present a united front wherever possible and not give ammunition to the PETAs of the world who want to abolish our sport. It has happened to greyhound racing in some jurisdictions and is not totally out of the question for horse racing.

Hossracergp

If you really think this is true, then I am guessing you’ve never paid a vet bill for a horse on the track. Bleeding won’t magically cease to exist if lasix is illegal, so something will be used in an effort to control bleeding beyond hay, oats, water and the draw.

Tinky

Seriously? Your claim is patently absurd.

There isn’t a single professional in the sport, including myself, who observed anything remotely close to one a day pre-Lasix.

Even if the superficial numbers added up – which they don’t, as there weren’t 100 horses a day racing – there is ZERO chance that the numbers of such bleeding incidences would have been distributed evenly.

Mfantus

Split the races to include only horses not on Lasix. If you want to run with it or have to then go ahead. But, give the owners and trainers a true test of non=lasix competition for their animals.

Mfantus

Split the races to include only horses not on Lasix. If you want to run with it or have to then go ahead. But, give the owners and trainers a true test of non=lasix competition for their animals.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Thats right they wouldn’t be distributed exactly evenly. In the 1960s the smog was thick in the San Gabriel Valley, the weather was hot & the racing was fast. There probably were more incidences of visable blood than in some other jurisdictions.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Professional ? Stall mucking is not exactly considered a profession. I’ve mucked a few stalls in my day too Tinky. I was a construction foremen for a real Oklahoma Cowboy who had 110 head on his ranch and who bred 5O mares a year . I’ve held the twitch plenty of times so don’t try to bring up your bogus professionalism like I only know the betting end of the game. I know the game from top to bottom.

Lisa Wintermote

Well said and I couldn’t agree more!

Lisa Wintermote

Tinky,My wise old Irish Gma always told me not to engage in a battle of wits with someone who has none! Just sayin… ;-)

Stanley inman

Lost in the fogThis notion that only “elites” CAN or WOULD run without raceday medsIs just a reflection of How most who WATCH the sport can’t fully appreciate why we would take such a pledge.Buying into this observation of “elite-nonelite”Misses the intrinsic nature of the sport and those who play. It’s about COMPETING,You don’t whine, or complain when a 1/2 million dollar horse bets you;That’s the sport.And, unless you have experienced it you can never fully understand.All this speculation about what happens if…Is just conventional thinking which is always wrong;You know like Blacks have tails;Woman are hysterical and can’t handle votingAnd we should all get a PSAI tesT to save us from cancer

Drugging athletes( horses) on raceday is not sport it’s antithetical to sport.

Stanley inman

Sean, How come no one addressed your point?It’s 95, 96, 97 degrees all week and they are all running on lasix, a powerful diuretic.Yet they twist the story back on to us and say not running on lasix is INHUMANE!My challenge:Go call the humane society, be my guest.

Stanley inman

If what you are saying were true, Horsemen would brag of their use of the needle;But they don’t They’re embarrassed by it;They never brag how goin to the jugular is good for the horseWhy is that?Because everyone knows you only go in the jugular when you are very sick;Your analogy with measles and polio is a distortion;Promulgated by those who think the public is too stupid to know the difference.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Good one Lisa ,pretty funny, buttZ… are you sure your granny didn’t tell you not to get in a battle of wits with *anyone* because *you* have none ? :-) just askin’ ?

Take notice Lisa ,I didn’t cry ad hominem. Like Tinky would have. :)

Just to set you straight I have a govt. document that says I have an IQ higher than 99.7 % of the people. That means you as an individual have a . 3 % chance of being in that league.

I’ll gamble you aren’t in that group and even if you are you would be up against it outwitting me.

Tinky is just getting a taste of his own medicine . If you want some of the medicine I’ll be glad to share it with you.

A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down… ;-)

desertrailrat

So how did the conversation go?

RayPaulick

Must have lost my number. No call.

desertrailrat

I’m not even sure where to start with you. First of all, if you didn’t just become a Paulick report “insurgent” you would realize that I have had disagreements with Tinky and Irwin. The difference between us is that I respect their opinions although mine may differ sometimes. Some advice I would like to pass along to you is that there are people that post on here that you can learn quite a bit from, people with expertise is all areas of the game. As a handicapper you never concede to anyone, trust me I understand, but when it comes to issues you don’t know anything about sometimes you just need to shut up and read and not throw in your two cents just to incite someone.

Furthermore, although revenues from gamblers do fuel the engine of racing please don’t confuse your feeding of a tote machine or funding a ADW account with doing good for the game. Be honest, when you bet you are looking out for yourself, and yourself only. No issue with that either, it’s the spirit of parimutuel wagering. What other than that have you done for the game Mr. Black Sea Bass Jaws? Do you donate to a rescue? I do. Give me an email address and I will show you a printout (in exchange for a scan of the “document” you have that shows you are top 1% IQ-wise). Do you have constructive ideas for improving the welfare of the animals, riders and backstretch workers? Lets hear them.

Your M.O. of being caustic just to satisfy your “quotable” ego is of no use to those of us interested in intelligent discussion. If you only wish to be a blog carcinogen then so be it. Truth be told I find you incredibly obnoxious and the whole buttZ thing is not funny, cute, nor trademarked anywhere other than the DRF Ill-blog which has become Facebook for about 10-15 of you other than the fact that Facebook, like Paulick Report gets updated in real time instead of every 6 hours so I do understand your sense of boredom now that I think about it.

Want some more? If you learn anything today it is don’t mess with us New Mexico boys, we are full of pi$$ and vinegar. Or frog juice and pig juice. Either way I like this place. Don’t screw it up.

desertrailrat

I rarely bust up laughing while reading PR. Sad but true, well said.

desertrailrat

You mean like Japan where it’s actually a special event and the crowd sounds like the Super Bowl when they leave the gate?

desertrailrat

You are a salespersons nightmare.

desertrailrat

Hey Mr. .3%….. its spelled foreman. Foremen is plural.

desertrailrat

Right on Stanley! This high ground you speak of….will there be an open bar? Either way, see you there. Dig your posts man.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I make an occasional spelling error like anybody else. My specialty is critical thinking. You better make sure you don’t make any minor mistakes rattail because you’re on the list for a spoonful of the medicine.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

French resistance . LOL. The French never resisted anything. They layed down and said enter . If it was up to the French resistance you’d still be speaking German.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

French resistance . LOL. The French never resisted anything. They layed down and said enter . If it was up to the French resistance you’d still be speaking German.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I’ll call you from a pay phone Ray when I get around to it. I don’t want you to have my phone number :-) I’m not a real trusting guy.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Lets see where to begin. No I don’t donate to bogus rescue shelters that are all about a job for the people that run them. I have one not far off with a bunch of walking skeletons on the property that would be better off in a can.

I do have quite a few pets of my own. I don’t make a habit of begging money to take care of them. That would be up to me . They are my property . Cigar isn’t my property.

I don’t respect Tinky’s opinions and I have my reasons for that.

There are no issues in racing that I don’t know anything about. I know something about all of it. I read all the posts and I’ve learned some medical jargon from them.;-)

When I bet I’m looking out for myself. You’re darn right I am. I already said that I was most concerned about the players.

The animals are not mine and BTW they are animals you know. Livestock. They aren’t Bambi .

The riders are paid quite well and yes some of the money they make was formerly mine.

I would support raising the scale of weights 10 lbs so people like Laffit Pincay didn’t have to survive on 4 ounces of fish or nuts a day plus all the lettuce he could eat. I’ve never liked seeing a good rider like Cory Black look 60 when he was 30 and I don’t like the idea that they are riding in a weakened state. How about some of you horse lovers start pushing for that ?

The illegal aliens working the backside are not my employees. I always paid my employees a living wage and I didn’t keep them locked up in a barn/housing and I wouldn’t hire an illegal to mow my lawn.

Intelligent discussion . I don’t see much of that here. What I see is an argument between real players and a small but vocal minority of noisy kool-aid drinkers.

As far as giving you my e-mail goes, Fat Chance. I don’t care how much money you get suckered out of by horse rescue operations.:-) Or if you don’t want to believe what is plainly obvious. Thats your business if you choose to do so . I’m pretty sure it doesn’t match the amount of vig I’ve been paying for more than 30 years.

Now let me make sure I’ve answered all your questions. Which is something that Barry Irwin & Tinky never do. BTW I haven’t called you a *moron* either , have I.

Oh yes. Want some more what ? Do you think you just put me in my place . :-) Think again rattrail. I wasn’t messing with any New Mexico boyZ, buttZ… if I get the hankerin’ in the future I’ll think of you when I do . LOL.

You find me obnoxious . No sweat . I find some people obnoxious too. See we’ve found common ground. :-)

To tell the truth thats why I broke down and posted here rather than just reading and lurking. This place is loaded with obnoxious people and the people that aren’t were being bullied by them.

I can do obnoxious with the best of them so I figured I’d fit right in. I’ll be back when the most obnoxious of all returns from the Olympics.

You have a nice day now.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

The Dogman (crist) is not for banning lasix. He said that battle was fought a long time ago in a column he wrote not long ago.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

The Dogman (crist) is not for banning lasix. He said that battle was fought a long time ago in a column he wrote not long ago.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I don’t know if ShelterDoc will see this buttZ … I want to ask him a question. Do you know what coccidioidomycosis is ? I know cows can get it, what about horses ? I understand that lasix isn’t going to help valley fever. It takes strong doses of anti fungal medicine over a long period of time and if you’re lucky it doesn’t get in your blood or spinal fluid which means you’re dead. Can horses get that ?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I don’t know if ShelterDoc will see this buttZ … I want to ask him a question. Do you know what coccidioidomycosis is ? I know cows can get it, what about horses ? I understand that lasix isn’t going to help valley fever. It takes strong doses of anti fungal medicine over a long period of time and if you’re lucky it doesn’t get in your blood or spinal fluid which means you’re dead. Can horses get that ?

Steve

Hello Grarick,

The stats are from the Medication Summit at Belmont Park last June (2011). The number used were from a presentation given by Denis Egan of the Irish Turf Club.

Here is a direct copy of the results and conclusions from the SaF study on furosemide: (sorry that it didn’t cut and past well)

Result:Horses were substantially more likely to develop EIPH (severity score ≥ 1; oddsratio, 3.3 to 4.4) or moderate to severe EIPH (severity score ≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0)following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. Inaddition, 81 of the 120 (67.5%) horses that had EIPH after administration of saline solutionhad a reduction in EIPH severity score of at least 1 when treated with furosemide.Horses were substantially more likely to develop EIPH (severity score ≥ 1; oddsratio, 3.3 to 4.4) or moderate to severe EIPH (severity score ≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0)following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. Inaddition, 81 of the 120 (67.5%) horses that had EIPH after administration of saline solutionhad a reduction in EIPH severity score of at least 1 when treated with furosemide.≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0)following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. Inaddition, 81 of the 120 (67.5%) horses that had EIPH after administration of saline solutionhad a reduction in EIPH severity score of at least 1 when treated with furosemide.Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Results indicated that prerace administration offurosemide decreased the incidence and severity of EIPH in Thoroughbreds racing undertypical conditions in South Africa. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009;235:76–82)—Results indicated that prerace administration offurosemide decreased the incidence and severity of EIPH in Thoroughbreds racing undertypical conditions in South Africa. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009;235:76–82)J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009;235:76–82)

Tinky

The irony is so thick, it’s difficult to penetrate.

Steve

Do the horses run to their ability on furosemide because the lack of EIPH blood in their lungs promotes better oxegenation while racing? Over the decades “race times” haven’t really changed. So fursosemide isn’t contributing to unrealistic performances.

So an important question is - is Salix “performance normalizing” versus performance enhancing? This is an important contrast. As the SaF study indicates furosemide helps reduce the incidence and severity of EIPH – a debilitating disease.

I am not a proponent of illegal drugs in racing. However, athletes today are pushed and need assistance. Racing’s issue isn’t Salix. It’s illegal doping. Salix ay be easier to ban than keeping up with the dopers. It’s(Salix) potential ban is low hanging fruit that may not really be adressing the problemof creating a level playing field.

See some of the other posts from the European community. Clenbuterol is used to help the horses during training. It is a broncho dialator w anabolic steriod properties. The trainers are bad guys for using it. The horses suffer EIPH and it helps. Many trainers and veterinarians says they are often trying to clear the lungs of blood so horses don’t get pneumonia. Here in America that’s even a bigger challenge as the dirt “blow back” offers tremedous insult to the horses respiratory system.

Food for thought.

Steve

Sorry..one typo.

in reference to clenbterol in overseas comunities “the trainers are NOT bad guys for using it.” My apologies.

Tinky

The layers of irony in Bsb Jaws’ post addressed to Lisa (below) are remarkable.

First, he proudly proclaims to have an exceptional IQ, while in the very same post confirming yet again that he doesn’t understand the definition of “ad hominem”.

He again accuses me of misusing that phrase, without providing a shred of evidence.

He (yet again) threatens that engaging with him in a “battle of wits” will prove futile, yet fails to make a single substantial point in the post.

Thus far, his posts have been primarily characterized by juvenile taunts and boasts.

As Clara Peller would have said, where’s the beef?

SteveG

Don’t chum the waters. Jawsicus Pseudointellectualis will then catch the gulfstream & settle on another reef.

Grarick

He probably keeps his “government-certified intelligence certificate” right next to the tinfoil hat he uses to keep the aliens at bay. Clearly a cancer not really worth the time.

Lisa Wintermote

Grarick,
That was my line of thinking as well.

H Acutulior

Tinky are you really Barry Irwin? Or are you Tinky Winky from the Teletubbies?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I didn’t acuse you of misusing the phrase . I acused you of over using it as a shield when you have no answer. Wa wa wa,poor baby. Its part of your standard reply as well as *patently false* and *absurd on its face*. You supply the evidence of that on a daily basis. Which is really pretty funny considering the source. A guy that never answers the questions & goes on like a broken record with ad hominem attacks galore.

I don’t threaten anybody. I offer them the choice. I didn’t bring up the battle of wits. That was your friend Lisa that did that. I said it was pretty funny,buttZ… I’m going to take that from her without making her choke on it just about as much as I’m going to let the very avg. Barry Irwin run around calling people *moron*. I’d allow that about as much as I’m going to let you *boast* that you’ve forgotten more about racing than I’ll ever learn. Oh yeah . You didn’t prove it Tinky . You ran away. Did you google Todd Sloan yet Tinky ? You little hillbilly faker LOL.

My IQ is not a boast. Its a fact. I didn’t earn it. It was given to me by God. Sometimes its a curse because I have to constantly suffer fools while trying to remain somewhat civil. I’m quite a bit more justified calling you people avg. than Barry Irwin is calling anybody and everybody a *moron*!

To Grarick, why don’t you try winning a race sometime. You didn’t rebutt that the Frenchies eat a lot of horses I noticed. ;-) To tell the truth I have no squawk with people eating whatever they choose. I’ve ate burro at a burro B-B-Q before. Mmmmmmm delicious ! No I keep it in a secret underground file completely seperate from the tinfoil hat mZ. Grarick. :-) Oh please let me do my Tinky imatation. Ad hominem ,ad hominem, patently false, snivel snivel, ad hominem, patently false ! LOL.

Wintermote, your line of thinking ? You can’t think your way out of a wet paper bag ! Just stand behind your leaders and let them do the think’n’ for you babalouie ! You just press the like button.

Steve G, Jawsicus Pseudointellectualis, I like it ! Very funny! Very nice Steve ;-) LOL. Its good to see one of the lemmings can think on their feet and don’t need to follow their list of talking points that they got from Peta. Don’t count on me moving to another reef just yet though.;-) The circus seals here are to plentiful fat & juicy. Besides I’m waiting for Mr. Flippers to come back from the Olympics.

Finally , you people need a little juvenile taunting. You take yourselves far to seriously. The fact is that most of you are just sore losers. While I may be an interloper it appears there are a few people around here getting a kick out of me taunting the likes of you regulars. :-)

Tinky

The layers of irony in Bsb Jaws’ post addressed to Lisa (below) are remarkable.

First, he proudly proclaims to have an exceptional IQ, while in the very same post confirming yet again that he doesn’t understand the definition of “ad hominem”.

He again accuses me of misusing that phrase, without providing a shred of evidence.

He (yet again) threatens that engaging with him in a “battle of wits” will prove futile, yet fails to make a single substantial point in the post.

Thus far, his posts have been primarily characterized by juvenile taunts and boasts.

As Clara Peller would have said, where’s the beef?

Stanley inman

So funny(see you have a deep appreciation for the core experience here.)

SteveG

Don’t chum the waters. Jawsicus Pseudointellectualis will then catch the gulfstream & settle on another reef.

John F. Greenhaw

I hate to throw gas on this ongoing fire, but I could not help but notice that on Sunday at Monmouth, the Majestic Light Stakes, Brazillian bred Brujo de Olleros makes his North American debut for new owners, Team Valor. It must be a misprint on the form, because it shows that he will run on Lasix?

Larry Ensor

Not sure what this has to do with my above post. But I tend to agree. It would take at least a life time of selective breeding to prove otherwise anyway.

Grarick

He probably keeps his “government-certified intelligence certificate” right next to the tinfoil hat he uses to keep the aliens at bay. Clearly a cancer not really worth the time.

H Acutulior

Tinky are you really Barry Irwin? Or are you Tinky Winky from the Teletubbies?

Lisa Wintermote

Grarick, That was my line of thinking as well.

Maureen

I agree that health is a performance enhancer. As is balanced riding – not even Todd Sloane’s position – as is correct hoof care (sadly lacking in racing despite the Jockey Club’s whitepaper of many years ago), as is kindness to the horse. As is proper and real conditioning, based on scientific principles – few of which are apparent at the track.

But the drugs used today – therapeutic and otherwise – are an insult to the body of the horse and cause him to be less healthy and less sound. And that is the point. It’s not whether or not a drug is a “performance enhancer”, but is it for the benefit of the horse – or just of greedy people?

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I didn’t acuse you of misusing the phrase . I acused you of over using it as a shield when you have no answer. Wa wa wa,poor baby. Its part of your standard reply as well as *patently false* and *absurd on its face*. You supply the evidence of that on a daily basis. Which is really pretty funny considering the source. A guy that never answers the questions & goes on like a broken record with ad hominem attacks galore.

I don’t threaten anybody. I offer them the choice. I didn’t bring up the battle of wits. That was your friend Lisa that did that. I said it was pretty funny,buttZ… I’m going to take that from her without making her choke on it just about as much as I’m going to let the very avg. Barry Irwin run around calling people *moron*. I’d allow that about as much as I’m going to let you *boast* that you’ve forgotten more about racing than I’ll ever learn. Oh yeah . You didn’t prove it Tinky . You ran away. Did you google Todd Sloan yet Tinky ? You little hillbilly faker LOL.

My IQ is not a boast. Its a fact. I didn’t earn it. It was given to me by God. Sometimes its a curse because I have to constantly suffer fools while trying to remain somewhat civil. I’m quite a bit more justified calling you people avg. than Barry Irwin is calling anybody and everybody a *moron*!

To Grarick, why don’t you try winning a race sometime. You didn’t rebutt that the Frenchies eat a lot of horses I noticed. ;-) To tell the truth I have no squawk with people eating whatever they choose. I’ve ate burro at a burro B-B-Q before. Mmmmmmm delicious ! No I keep it in a secret underground file completely seperate from the tinfoil hat mZ. Grarick. :-) Oh please let me do my Tinky imatation. Ad hominem ,ad hominem, patently false, snivel snivel, ad hominem, patently false ! LOL.

Wintermote, your line of thinking ? You can’t think your way out of a wet paper bag ! Just stand behind your leaders and let them do the think’n’ for you babalouie ! You just press the like button.

Steve G, Jawsicus Pseudointellectualis, I like it ! Very funny! Very nice Steve ;-) LOL. Its good to see one of the lemmings can think on their feet and don’t need to follow their list of talking points that they got from Peta. Don’t count on me moving to another reef just yet though.;-) The circus seals here are to plentiful fat & juicy. Besides I’m waiting for Mr. Flippers to come back from the Olympics.

Finally , you people need a little juvenile taunting. You take yourselves far to seriously. The fact is that most of you are just sore losers. While I may be an interloper it appears there are a few people around here getting a kick out of me taunting the likes of you regulars. :-)

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

I would say lasix is for the benifit of the horse.

Kindness to the animal no matter the breed is also important. I once knew an old roan saddle horse named Apollo who’s owner never came to ride him or brush him or anything .(he was a beautiful horse even when dirty) She just paid the bill to house him. He was meaner than cats**t. Going in his stall to muck it was a dangerous job. I wasn’t a ranch hand but worked for the rancher in another business. I felt sorry for old Apollo because other boarders would come and ride their horses and groom them and his wouldn’t. It took many months & many six-packs of brew for me to gain his confidence and be able to go in his stall and give him a brushing. I never rode him . He wasn’t mine ,buttZ… he was a friend of mine.

Maureen Tierney

I am not against Lasix in principle. I do think the real cause of bleeding needs to be discovered and addressed. The fact that cutting horses and draft horses bleed make it clear that it’s NOT a speed or racing issue.

That said, I am not against raceday Bute either IF a horse is sound without it (no heat, swelling, hint of soreness – NONE) and IF the horses is not getting any other pain medication. Yes, most horses do have some minor arthritis and Bute will reduce their subclinical inflammation allowing them to perform their best. But the fact is that people abuse it, and so it should be illegal. For the good of all horses.

Patti Martin

Usually those who do not trust without justification are those you can justifiably not trust. Look in the mirror of integrity Bsb Jaws.

http://www.facebook.com/bsb.jaws Bsb Jaws

Oh I have plenty of justification. You call him Patti, give him your phone number. How about putting your phone number on this blog ? Think about it Patti. What does he want to say to me that he can’t say right here ?

Let me flip your words . Usually those that blindly trust end up getting ****** under. Are you a Bernie Maddoff investor Patti ?

Anita Xanax

That ain’t funny.

Susie Byrd

This is a damned if you do and damned if you don’t controversy…granted some horse may not need lasix but the ones that do should not have to suffer the consequences just because of all the brouhaha thats being generated about disreputable trainers that are using the hard drugs. Some say we should get rid of “bleeders”…just throw “em away..don’t send any to the breeding shed at all. What if one of the so named just happens to be a horse that made tons of money and ran on lasix. What about the foreign influx that come here to run….they use it if permitted so they must not think it will be that detrimental. Have any of the non-lasixers ever seen a horse that is a true bleeder, bleed to death after a race….I have been a trainer for 40 years and was married to a vet….not a pretty sight and something that could have been prevented….well, I’ve put in my two cents worth….will be anxiously awaiting any input, be it good or bad.

Susie Byrd

This is a damned if you do and damned if you don’t controversy…granted some horse may not need lasix but the ones that do should not have to suffer the consequences just because of all the brouhaha thats being generated about disreputable trainers that are using the hard drugs. Some say we should get rid of “bleeders”…just throw “em away..don’t send any to the breeding shed at all. What if one of the so named just happens to be a horse that made tons of money and ran on lasix. What about the foreign influx that come here to run….they use it if permitted so they must not think it will be that detrimental. Have any of the non-lasixers ever seen a horse that is a true bleeder, bleed to death after a race….I have been a trainer for 40 years and was married to a vet….not a pretty sight and something that could have been prevented….well, I’ve put in my two cents worth….will be anxiously awaiting any input, be it good or bad.