No that is inaccurate Darth Frared. People keep focusing on those few words YOda says and that is not all that he says. He also tells Anakin be careful when sensing the future and how attachments can lead to jealousy and greed. Yoda did not blow anything because everything he told Anakin, Anakin made it true on Mustafar. Also what are people expecting Yoda to say. I read in the Junior novelization, Yoda saying "To stop DEATH no Jedi is that strong."

Anakin wont hear it any other way except yes I can stop a loved one from dying and Yoda cant, just like Palps cant either. He just lies and tells Anakin learn the darkside and you can stop your loved one from dying. He forgot to tell Anakin... by the way everything that you do including murdering and slaughtering Younglings will definitely cause a break between you and your wife. He left that important information out and guess what happens on Mustafar?/>/>

I know what you mean. Everything according to my design. But since this to me is the mother of all arguments we might as well spend some time with it.

And, even more ingeniously, I?ve tried breaking it down into even less now. So, sorry for all the work you put into yours, I want it even shorter.
Basically I have two strands, the second being the result of the first.

a disclaimer goes first: because I make so much effort listing the order?s mistakes, doesn?t mean I hold them responsible for everything.

Understandable.

darth_frared said:

1 ? the jedi order is a hierarchical organisation. They have ranks, they have according rules. They define themselves as an order by establishing who they are and who their enemies are. They establish which is good and which isn?t. They?ve got a stance. They have power.
(the sith do the same, well, mr. sid does. They say, our enemies are the jedi, we need to wipe them out.)
no reasons here, just looking at the facts.

Okay.

darth_frared said:

2 ? the result of this: their treatment of Anakin amid their ranks.
They have certain expectations regarding his behaviour, some of which he cannot fulfil.

He could fulfill all these expectations. Luke did it and he was in a very much similar situation. The only difference is when Luke began versus Anakin. I'll give them props for letting Luke be with his family. Not because of the family ties so much as it centers around his willingness to leave. He's not looking back as much as Anakin, which makes all the difference. Qui-gon was wrong to take Anakin at that age.

darth_frared said:

Teaching is all about the student. We are all different. We all have different needs. Teaching caters to everyone?s individual needs. (again, this does not mean that the teacher just OKs everything, not at all. It means that you find out what your student needs and act accordingly) That?s just how it is. By neglecting that principle and by demanding Anakin to adhere to their rules, they put pressure on him.
He has no way of easing that for himself because he cannot find out why he cannot adhere to the rules.

His abilities make him arrogant, which is why he has trouble following the rules. By that same tolken, if he had been allowed to marry Padme free and clear, he would've still been tempted by the Dark Side once he had his vision.

darth_frared said:

For other padawans the principles and rules of the jedi order are a priori, he has had experiences with some things which are not according to the order?s definition of what one should have experienced. (he has developed an attachment among other things)
Another principle of teaching is that nothing is just in the words, teaching consists of many more things. By simply telling what?s good and what?s not, people seldom learn.

This is where the Master/Padawan relationship comes in. The Master takes his/her Padawan out in the field and teaches them right and wrong through experience. Anakin has all of that from Obi-wan, but he still doesn't get it. He's still used to that nine year old mentality of everyone should be forced to do something, regardless of whether they like it or not.

darth_frared said:

as noted above (section 2), attending to your student?s needs is not directly related to making the student arrogant or feeling above everyone else. It?s a mistake to think that. Anakin had needs that were palpable and very important and they weren?t taken into account. he is treated like everyone else and that violates the first principle I stated (about everyone having different needs).

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. It wasn't the fact that he wasn't allowed to go check on his mother that was at issue, so much as the end result. Checking on her for the ten year interim wouldn't have changed the fact that she would've still been taken and killed. It still wouldn't have changed the fact that he had a duty and couldn't just drop everything at the drop o

no,i'm not being inaccurate.
i wrote, in great detail, what i think counselling is about.
and part of it isn't just to listen to the words yoda said, but to use sympathy.
counselling isn't saying, you know, there's nothing we can do, actually.
it would be asking more questions, finding out how much it troubles him... that sort of thing.
yoda says something, anakin says something, then yoda says something.
there is no talk, they just exchange positions.

it's not the words as such, it's how they are said, how short the sentences are, how abstract, how sympathetical. that's counselling.

if you've ever had a serious problem with anything, you'll have want someone to talk to, to accept that this is a problem for you, you'll want this person to take time. you would wish to trust this person... now some of this cannot be achieved in this situation, but some could have.

there's no sympathy on yoda's side. no sympathy for the problem itself.

Yoda doesn't sympathize with someone who wants to stop death because it is not in Yoda's nature to want to stop death. It's a selfish, arrogant thing. Why should Yoda sympathize with it?

In his responses, Yoda is showing Anakin he is beyond such things - the Jedi are not concerned with such things - and to be truly at peace and in tune with the Force, Anakin needs to get past it as well.

Basically Yoda is saying - remember them for their accomplishments, celebrate them and rejoice that they are at one with the Force, but don't try to hold on to them, stop the natural course of life, or disrespect their journey because it is not what you personally want.

Yoda doesn't sympathize with someone who wants to stop death because it is not in Yoda's nature to want to stop death. It's a selfish, arrogant thing. Why should Yoda sympathize with it?

In his responses, Yoda is showing Anakin he is beyond such things - the Jedi are not concerned with such things - and to be truly at peace and in tune with the Force, Anakin needs to get past it as well.

Basically Yoda is saying - remember them for their accomplishments, celebrate them and rejoice that they are at one with the Force, but don't try to hold on to them, stop the natural course of life, or disrespect their journey because it is not what you personally want.

In other words - don't be selfish.

Yoda doesn't need to sympathize with selfishness.

not the point again. is it about the moral high ground or what?
i'm talking about what counseling is and all you do is claim that there's no need for sympathy. that's useless. when you seek help for something that's impossible to do then you are still in need of help. nothing has changed on that score.
and if yoda recognizes that anakin is selfish he still essentially saying, don't be selfish. and that is helping in exactly what way?

It's helping because Yoda can't make Anakin NOT be selfish. Yoda's job is not to resolve Anakin's concerns - that's Anakin's job. Only he can make the change.

Anakin cannot have what he wants - period. Yoda can do nothing for him except tell him it's useless to try to change things he cannot control.

Besides, Anakin wasn't forthcoming with the issue at all - Yoda sensed Anakin was trying to hide something from him. If Anakin truly wanted help resolving his concerns, he would have admitted the situation to Yoda. Instead, he wanted Yoda to give him permission to take action on an issue he knew Yoda would never condone.

Anakin knows what he wants is not the Jedi way. He knows he got caught up in something he should not have.

Yoda gave him as good advice as anyone could in the situation and he doesn't assume to take over and control the situation for Anakin.

It's a dangerous line because Yoda doesn't know what he's talking about, Anakin isn't giving Yoda any room to work with, and Yoda isn't going to simply sympathize with Anakin over an issue because he doesn't even know what Anakin is on about except trying to stop someone close from dying - which is not even possible.

What's Yoda supposed to say? "Yeah I wish I could stop people from dying too? It sucks."

That's the irony of the whole situation concerning Skywalker. Had he listened to Master Yoda, even if he was unable to let go of Padme, he would have been better off. Thus, Padme would have still lived, he would have been able to resist Palpatine offer for him to join the dark side, and he would have still be there to help raise both of his children. Sad is the only word I can think of to describe it.

*sigh* -- neither did the rest of the Jedi Council. You put it into a nutshell, yoshifett. A psychologically educated councelor might have spared the GFFA the mess. Instead, Palpatine took the chance to fill the gap. The rest is history.

Even the most educated and experienced psychologist cannot force a person to change their perspective or alter their intended path.

Anakin didn't go in to get advice on the issue. He went in to seek power from Yoda - power to save Padme. Yoda told him nothing he could do would prevent death. But he could choose to accept it and be at peace, or deny the natural course of things and be led by fear and greed.

Even the most educated and experienced psychologist cannot force a person to change their perspective or alter their intended path.

Anakin didn't go in to get advice on the issue. He went in to seek power from Yoda - power to save Padme. Yoda told him nothing he could do would prevent death. But he could choose to accept it and be at peace, or deny the natural course of things and be led by fear and greed.

no, of course, not *force*. talk out of having crazy and irrational ideas. *force* is what the jedi do all the time, forcing a lifestyle which they see fit.

you keep forgetting that you don't just sit down and accept. funny notion, this. ever tried? ever felt you've been treated unfairly? what did you do? accept it? or did you go against it?

Yoda took what information Anakin was willing to offer and he explained to Anakin that he was walking down a path of fear and greed.

You act as if the truth about death is somehow unfair. Death is a part of life. It is not something you can choose to stop. It may seem unfair that your loved ones must die when they do, but it's not up to you to decide when or if they die. You can only accept the truth and be at peace, or you can be consumed by fear, greed and anger. Either way, death is a universal constant.

Anakin was looking for a solution to death. Protecting loved ones, defending innocent people, rescuing victims... these are normal ideas. But stopping death is an abnormal concept and it is especially harmful when the urgency is based on selfish motivations.

Was Yoda wrong when he told Luke not to go to Bespin to rescue Han and Leia?

Just like in Anakin's case, nothing good came from Luke's decision to stop foreseen events that he felt he could control.

We can certainly see what motivates Anakin to do what he does. We might even say to ourselves we would do the same if we were in his position. But that still doesn't make it right. And It defintitely doesn't make it Yoda's fault.

It's only because we possess the same fear, greed and self-aggrandizing motives that drove Anakin to his fall - just like Yoda warned.

Anakin had obsessions and compulsions that were destroying him. These influences came about through bad decisions on his part - decisions for which he felt he had no accountability.

Anakin's pride would not let him accept the simple truth Yoda was telling him. Whether Anakin liked the answer or not makes no difference. Yoda is right and Anakin chooses a self-destructive path and one that also caused the problems he was seeking power to avoid.

He is the chosen one, this is the will of the force... all of it. Anakin was/is a good person and the emporer used his love to seduce him.
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All of what happened, happened for a reason. There are terrible things and wonderful things, afterall, Anakin did save the galaxy in the end.

He is the chosen one, this is the will of the force... all of it. Anakin was/is a good person and the emporer used his love to seduce him.
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All of what happened, happened for a reason. There are terrible things and wonderful things, afterall, Anakin did save the galaxy in the end.

He fulfilled his duty as the chosen one and he also (preparing for the fanboy flames) helped clean out the jedi, a flawed organization by the time of ROTS.

That's the irony of the whole situation concerning Skywalker. Had he listened to Master Yoda, even if he was unable to let go of Padme, he would have been better off. Thus, Padme would have still lived, he would have been able to resist Palpatine offer for him to join the dark side, and he would have still be there to help raise both of his children. Sad is the only word I can think of to describe it.

Far easier said than done. Yoda clearly didn't tell Anakin what he needed to hear because he turned to the dark side. Anakin needed to hear something that would actually help him, whether that was even possible or not, we'll never know. Everyone but Palpatine fails in ROTS- Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, Padme... etc. That's one of its lessons.

"Psychology is the pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural."
"Is it possible to learn this power?"
"Not from a Jedi."

Love that Yoshifett! Though I hope you're not channelling a bit of Tom Cruise there

Seriously though, how important was that Yoda counsel session? I am not really clear on why Anakin goes to Yoda when he won't really talk with him about his problem in any great detail. On that score, I do not blame Yoda for not being that helpful to Anakin. We kind of know why he doesn't go to Obi-Wan, I certainly can't see him going to Mace or anyone else on the council, so is Yoda the head honcho for premonitions that makes Anakin go to him? I get the feeling that Anakin was possibly hoping that Yoda was going to tell him that premonitions weren't something to take that seriously. Maybe he was hoping Yoda would just say, "Anakin, ridiculous do not be, pfft, premonitions, nothing serious they are to take, ignore them you should". Yoda however does not allay his fears about receiving the premonitions, he just tells him to not act on them, and let go of the person that they concern. So Anakin goes off feeling that the premonitons are still valid, but that he cannot change the situation in any way and that he should accept the fate of 'someone close to you'.

Therapy, or a confessional even at this point might have been handy for Anakin at this point.

Far easier said than done. Yoda clearly didn't tell Anakin what he needed to hear because he turned to the dark side. Anakin needed to hear something that would actually help him, whether that was even possible or not, we'll never know. Everyone but Palpatine fails in ROTS- Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, Padme... etc. That's one of its lessons.

What Anakin needed to hear was what Palpatine told him. Anakin created that need like an addiction - fueled by greed. His need was so strong that it drowned out his rational senses and he rejected Yoda's sound advice because it didn't suit his need.

What Anakin needed to hear was what Palpatine told him. Anakin created that need like an addiction - fueled by greed. His need was so strong that it drowned out his rational senses and he rejected Yoda's sound advice because it didn't suit his need.

I think you're mixing up "want" and "need". Palpatine told Anakin what he wanted to hear after his meeting with Yoda. Anakin did not want to hear Yoda's advice about letting go of what you fear to lose. However that is indeed the lesson that he needs to hear, but it's just phrased rather badly. Yoda didn't approach the situation in the way Anakin needed. The fault lies with both of them.

What Anakin needed to hear was what Palpatine told him. Anakin created that need like an addiction - fueled by greed. His need was so strong that it drowned out his rational senses and he rejected Yoda's sound advice because it didn't suit his need.

I think you're mixing up "want" and "need". Palpatine told Anakin what he wanted to hear after his meeting with Yoda. Anakin did not want to hear Yoda's advice about letting go of what you fear to lose. However that is indeed the lesson that he needs to hear, but it's just phrased rather badly. Yoda didn't approach the situation in the way Anakin needed. The fault lies with both of them.

I know what you're saying. I was speaking from Anakin's point of view. Certainly I know the distinction between what he actually needed and wanted in the situation.

Yoda approached the situation just fine. People think Anakin deserved to be treated differently... to stroke him and coddle him and make exceptions for him. I don't.

What was Yoda supposed to do? He told Anakin the exact same thing he told Luke. Was Yoda wrong in ESB? Be careful when sensing the future - it leads to fear and greed.

You can't stop people from dying. Now here is an ice cream cone. Don't drip on the carpet on your way out.

Yoda was gentler than that, but he did give a stern warning. Anakin told him he would do what he wanted to ensure the vision did not come to pass.

Anakin is a big boy that doesn't want to be told what to do - he only wants someone to give him permission to go ahead and be selfish. In the end, the decision is his and all Yoda can do is advise him not to be stupid.