Upon Rian's advice, I'm gonna try and avoid. I don't want great character revelations to be unsurprising when I see them happen in the theatre.

Plus, which is a bit *ironic (*Get Out Of Jail free word to stop me being a hypocrite) I so far haven't seen anything about this film that really fascinates me. Finn on a mission with some R2D2 version of an asian human running around with him, "Oooh watch Rey stop just inches before destroying that.... rock face"

I hope with stuff like this I got mental ammunition to hold my breath until mid- Dec.

I remember willingly being spoiled for the prequels. I still had a good enough time at the theater. I saw rumblings about Han's death in The Force Awakens...still enjoyed the film. I can't imagine anything being so spoilerrific* that I have a shitty time at the theater. Truth be told, if my experience for Episode VIII matches that of Episode VII, the bulk of my joy will come from watching my kids enjoy the film. I'm taking my oldest two kids this time (son 9, daughter 8).

*But still, Rian Johnson did say that...... No, there's no way I could successfully navigate a personal Star Wars media embargo. Some people may do it with ease, but I am weak! So, so weak......

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Yeah...I really have no idea what to expect from this film. That's gotta be a good thing. They are going out of their way to hammer home that this movie is going to be different, it's actually getting to be kinda funny. But some freshness is definitely necessary.

i didn't get much of a spoiler sense from that. i mean, there are hints of things, but it's easy to chalk that up to creative trailer editing, juxtaposition of shots that might actually be from completely different scenes in the movie, lines taken out of context, shots that aren't even in the film (just like the last film's trailer) etc.

good luck to anyone trying to avoid this trailer because of fear of spoilers. everything that is "spoiled" about this film in the trailer will also be in tv ads, interviews, articles, internet comments, or anywhere else star wars gets discussed. might as well just watch it now and get fake-spoiled until you see the film and find out how things really happen.

on another note, it's nice to see Tom Petty killing it in his final film role.

I believe Rian Johnson's warning is just marketing. I also believe this trailer was very carefully edited.

-Do Rey and Kylo Ren team up? Possibly, but I think that "scene" shown is from two different parts of the film. I think that's Rey talking to Luke when she meets him in the beginning of the film. And Kylo Ren's scene.... I dunno, maybe Hux was screaming so loud that he fell down and needed help up.-Kylo's Space Band-Aid on his face is because this movie starts at the immediate end of The Force Awakens. He was injured, put a bandage on it, and hopped in his ship to destroy the Resistance. -(My thoughts if Rey is Luke's child, or even less possible - a lost twin of Kylo Ren) Variations on the Imperial March (Vader's Theme) took up about 2/3 of the trailer. I'd love for Anakin's two grandchildren to team up (light or dark side.... or both!). Kind of like "Okay, George Lucas, you're going to make Midichlorians a thing? And Anakin is the direct product of that? Fine, we'll have that impact his grandchildren!" Of course, if Rey goes dark-side, that could also be the impetus - that she and Kylo are the descendants of someone created by the Sith - an aspect I never really thought about before. Hey Luke, Leia....you're only existing because your dad was created by the Sith. Deal with THAT.-Porgs! I'd like to think that Lucasfilm/Disney did some deep psychological research on what makes a good "cute" character - Ewoks? Kind of, but plenty of issues. Jar-Jar? Hell. No. BB-8? On the right track now. Baby Groot? Definitely. Some of my older (contemporary) friends/relatives are already complaining about them. My daughter already owns two of them. Kids initially loved Jar-Jar, too....but I think they're a little smarter in the Lucasfilm/Disney offices to not learn from the errors of the past.-Leia - More trailer editing. She was supposedly to be in Episode 9, so I'd be awfully surprised if she died.-Luke - Love the updated Crazy Hermit look....except he really looks crazy (Crazy Eyes!). Kind of like a Jedi Grima Wormtongue. Could he die? Easily, but I don't think he will, either. I think it would be kind of cheap to knock off one classic character per film. But I'm definitely more excited to see him now than I was (potentially) for Episode 7.-Finn and Poe.....seemed really inconsequential in the trailer, and that's okay. Not because I don't like the characters, but they can only show so much in the trailer. We also didn't see any Benicio Del Toro or Laura Dern. Again, that's fine. Leave some stuff for the movie!

I think this was a very well-cut trailer. It showed a ton of stuff and didn't say a damn thing about what it meant while doing it.

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Just got back. I need to see it again and then let my thoughts stew before even beginning to think of offering more permanent thoughts. My oldest two kids (son-9, and daughter-8) went with me to a special fan event showing. Our $30 tickets* got us assigned seating (happens at just about every movie now anyways), a medium popcorn, a pack of postcard-sized Last Jedi art cards, and a special greeting from Rian Johnson as he introduced a Behind-The-Scenes video that featured John Williams. But honestly, I paid that much just to get my kids to bed an hour or two earlier with it being a school night. The reason I'm saying all that is that the showing was full of ultra geeks. There's opening night geeks.....and then there's the people at this showing (gotta see it first, need the collectable cards, etc.). So with an overly-enthusiastic crowd, my viewing was severely biased from the start.

That all being said, as of right now this is my favorite Star Wars movie.

....and the fact that I'm saying that is why I want to see it again soon and then let my thoughts process a bit.

AVOID ALL SPOILERS FOR THIS MOVIE!! There's no contemporary version of the "I am your father" bombshell to be on alert for. That's not the surprise of the film. Really, it comes back to Luke's line from the trailers - "This is not going to go the way you think it is." There are so many small surprises as the film progresses - plot points, dialogue, action, etc. It's also a very emotional film - I laughed, I cried, and I sweat my skinny ass off because of all the tension. I'll gladly discuss this after people have seen it, but I'm not even going to invisi-text specifics for now.

*Totally not worth $30........but yet.......so fucking worth it.

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Not as good as The Force Awakens in my opinion. A two-and-a-half hour character study that did little to advance the plot. Is it a Rian Johnson movie? Yes. Is it a Star Wars movie? No.

I know my opinion is driven by my expectations. When I go to a Star Wars movie, I'm not looking for dialogue that would earn a Best Screenplay Oscar. I'm not looking depth of characters what would earn a Best Actor/Actress Oscar. Hell, other than the "Luke, I am your father" moment, I'm not looking for the one end-all, be-all trilogy changing revelation. I'm looking for a Jedi Knights, lightsaber battles, the Millennium Falcon getting damaged, spaceship battles, the use of the Force, exciting entertainment, actiony, popcorn movie.

I was let down by the battles. I was let down by the lightsaber fight. I was let down by Finn's regression as a person in the beginning of the movie. I was disappointed in Poe's turn into a dumb-jock-pilot.

Glad I'm not the only one. I didn't think this was as successfully written for what it was trying to achieve as The Force Awakens did.

SPOILERS I can't give a fuck about blacking them out...

I will continue to get into arguments with people who don't see things from my angle that action hero characters in an action movie are meant to drive the story forward to solve problems and create a happy ending - not to fuck things up, waste their time doing something unneeded and worst of all nearly get all of the good guys killed. Which is what Poe and Finn did with all their running about trying to dismantle the Star Destroyer's tracking system which as well as being something they didn't need to solve at all with Laura Dern's character already covering a solution for that, they also gave the First Order a way to follow them to their hideout base and nearly kill them all, which also meant that Lukehad to intervene - which resulted in him 'transcending' away from the physical world (I read that as 'dying', fuck it).

That's what the real gripe and fuck up of this film was for me which really stops me from liking it as much as I want to.

I'm a bit puzzled about Luke's confrontation with Kylo at the end, what did Luke really achieve with that apart from buying the Resistance time to escape? Considering this is Luke I thought he would do more to save the day for the whole Resistance fighting the First Order, especially as both parties were putting so much expectation on him.

But unfair expectation or not, considering this film is titled after Luke and he himself feels a lot to redeem about his past, I would have thought that Luke would have played a bigger more practical part in defeating the First Order or Kylo Ren. And why did he have to 'transcend' at the end? Does this make him more powerful in satisfying these things and blah blah we wait to wait 2 years to see this play out, or will that part of the story just be a let down like so many of these Star Wars films end up doing?

I'm not sure if I'm satisfied with Rey's story either. I guess she's just 'one of those people that happens to be strong with the Force and that's that' in terms of her origins, but what does she achieve too? She tries to turn Kylo but fails. That's pretty much it for her part in this film. Apparently Luke trained her to become a Jedi but otherwise she doesn't do much and not much happens to her, not dramatically enough anyway. I just don't think there was enough of a character journey or development with her by the end, and 2/3rds of the way into this new SW story, I actually don't see what is so different or special about her as the central Jedi character that this trilogy is about compared to Luke or Vader in theirs.

I'll digest this film more and see it again and hopefully I will be more satisfied with what I have with this film, but right now there's just too much about it that makes this film feel like it came up short, that it is a bit empty with the emotion, drama, and overall character journey that it should have provided.

Regarding Luke, if you saw a double sunset like that, you'd think "Fuck it all, it ain't getting any better than this! POOF!" as well!!

-Poe was always a dumb pilot (or "Flyboy" as Holdo regurgitated from the OT). He was like Luke + Han in terms of ambition and recklessness as a pilot.-Finn only cares about one thing in the galaxy - Rey. That's the only reason why he went to the Resistance base in Ep7, why he went to Starkiller Base, and why the first thing he asked coming out of his coma was "Where's Rey?" At that point, a continuation of Ep7, he doesn't care about anything else. The Resistance are nice people with good intentions, but that's not his battle. That changes as Episode 8 progresses. I'm eager to see his role/growth in Ep9.

thomasgaffney wrote:I know my opinion is driven by my expectations.

I wish everyone was as honest about that. But what ARE expectations at this point? This isn't so much a critique at you, Gaffney, but at the arguments being tossed around in general. 2/3 of the Original Trilogy films had a Death Star. Episode 1 had a mini-Death Star. Rogue One had The Death Star, and Episode 7 had Starkiller Base. Should there be more Death Stars? The entire prequel Trilogy had an over-arching story that was nearly sabotaged by poor casting, poor acting, poor writing (story details), and even worse dialogue. The banter in the prequels was so forced that it was completely joyless. C-3PO's unfunny 1-liners in AOTC appeared to be the result of a lost Lucasfilm office bet as their frequency increased. Episode 7 brought back effective banter as well as flowing dialogue that was believable (a trait that continued in Ep8). Which dialogue should be expected in a SW film?Action? Poe's flying in the opening space battle was fantastic. Sure, it was a hot rod car in space that I'm sure completely wrecked a number of scientific laws, but THAT is Star Wars, isn't it? Holdo going lightspeed....quite possibly one of the most jaw-dropping moments (the silence was perfect there, my audience all gasped audibly) ever in a SW film.

But then come the expectations of characters and story. That's where I have no empathy with viewers who take issue. Common gripes:-"I need to know exactly who Snoke is." - Why? It's obvious that he was instrumental in getting the First Order set up to where they are. But he's dead now. Why does his backstory matter? We know nothing of Palpatine before he was a Senator on Naboo other than his Darth Plageus story, but that's it. And no, EU books don't count. It's this kind of "I NEED TO KNOW!" mentality that's giving us a Han Solo movie as well as the rumored Kenobi, Boba Fett, and Yoda films. Why? Why can't what is shown on screen about a character be good enough? And this leads to...-"I need Rey's Parents to matter!!!" - Why? I mean, the argument of the Episodic SW Films being about the Skywalker Family is a valid argument. And to that end, I say that we still have Ben Solo. And, what's to say that he was wrong about her parents? Or what if he's right - her parents were shitty people that sold her for drinking money. But what if one of her parents was the child of a Jedi? But really, Rey's parents aren't the heroes of the story. They aren't even part of the story.-"Everything about Luke was a betrayal of his character!!!" - In episodes 4-5, Luke was an over-emotional kid. He was given a complete mind-fuck at the end of Ep.5 and then starting at the beginning of ROTJ, he's calmer than the most seasoned Prozac-popper. Oh, but he's a Jedi! Fuck that. He was told that the worst mass-murderer monster of a villain in the galaxy was his father. His mentor more or less lied about everything he said about Anakin. Oh, but he's a Jedi now so he's just chill as fuck. Nope. Not buying it. Luke has some serious mental issues. And then 25-30 years later his own nephew (son of his sister and best friend) kills half of his students and leaves him for dead. But Luke is expected to be the strong, wise Jedi sage? Because.... The Force?

Next to his own father, Luke is one of the most mentally damaged characters in the Star Wars world. My only gripes are that we didn't get to explore this state more. A little dementia would have fit nicely.....although, he DOES see dead people.....

-"Mary Sue" (Rey) is at it again! - This argument is back and hurts my eyes from all the rolling it causes. Rey had pretty much mastered the use of her staff on Jakku. Whether she was self-trained or had help with that, who knows. She even shows the audience in Ep8 her progression from staff to saber. But as far as her abilities in general? Yeah...Pod Racer Anakin, Nemoidian Ship-destroying Anakin, and Death Star-exploding Luke also want to know how she got her wonderful skills. Jedi Ex Machina should be an expectation and not a critique of Star Wars at this point. But now she is The Last Jedi. Where does she go from here? In-depth studying of "Dummies Guide To Being A Jedi?" Or is she going to try and train other people with only a basic grasp of everything herself? Will she try to find others and train as a group? Or will she do nothing.....because SHE NEVER LEARNED TO READ!!!!! Really, out of all the remaining characters, her potential is the most exciting. Luke will most certainly appear to her as a Force Ghost - which is another aspect I'm looking forward to. Luke as a Force Ghost will likely be mentally sound, as opposed to Porg Island Hermit Luke. Will he train her? Just give advice? It'll be interesting to see if Yoda or any other Jedi appear to her.

- "Rose is a stupid waste of time character!" - You fools. Rose IS YOU! Rose is a fan girl that is totally enamored with the heroes of the Star Wars world. And when those heroes disappoint her view of them, she gets pissed!! Come on, man!!

- "Benicio Del Toro was a waste!!!" - My biggest gripes with him were the piss-poor Max Headroom imitation, and the fact that they never called him a SLICER! Even The Clone Wars show and Rebels use that term. I'm hoping he shows up in Ep9 because his character has the chance to be the real Han Solo anti-hero of this trilogy. He was always, truly looking out for himself and never once concealed that fact. He was also the wrong slicer. Maz Kanata recommended the guy at the table played by Justin Theroux. The real crime was not expanding his part!

- "They're making up Force Powers as they go!!" - Umm, yeah. They really are. But I don't recall a definitive list of Force Power being submitted for public approval in the last 40 years. I saw a comment that said "I don't want to live in a world where unknown Force Powers don't exist." A bit dramatic? Yeah. But at the same time, either the possibilities are endless....or they aren't. The Phantom Menace chose endless for us with Midichlorians, the Force-zoom, Qui-Gon using the Force to try and expand his lightsaber's power on the Nemoidian ship blast door. Episode 2 expanded with allowing free-falling Jedi to safely land on rapidly-moving flying cars (so why is Mace Windu dead, when Anakin and Obi Wan can just land on a car?), taming the animals with The Force, and Yoda's fighting style.

- "Captain Phasma is a waste of screen time!" - Calling her a waste would infer that she does nothing for the story. Well, she's in charge of the Troopers, so she has an important job. Is it because she looks cool? Because she's played by Brienne of Tarth? Because precious sensibilities were fooled into thinking she was a prominent character based on marketing material? Boo-fucking-hoo.

- "Disney is a corporate whore that has ruined my Star Wars!" - How did George Lucas make billions of dollars? It wasn't from ticket sales. It was from the merchandising rights/deals he negotiated from the onset of the entire saga. That will probably go down as one of the most brilliant game-changing moves in the film industry. What is more "corporate" than selling off licensing deals to put Star Wars on everything from toys to clothes to hygiene products to automobiles, computers, food products, etc. etc. The same machine that produced the action figures with their Kenner Proofs-of-Purchase that we all bought to get the mail-in Emperor figure is producing the Wookie hemorrhoid creme you're ramming up your anus for relief. Stop being selectively glib.

- "Poe's actions were a dumb waste of time!" - Leia has obviously been grooming him for leadership, but he's still making stupid, selfish, hotheaded mistakes like he did in the beginning of the movie. It wasn't so much the mistake/defiance of orders that was the problem for Leia as it was Poe's reaction. Poe was all "We did it!!!!" But Leia was like "Ummmm, everyone else is dead you dumbfuck!" That's why he was demoted. That's why he wasn't put in charge of the fleet (well, that and the order of succession). I found it very reminiscent of Anakin being pissy about being planted on the Jedi Council without being awarded the status of Jedi Master. Poe will be running the entire fleet before the end of this trilogy. Leia has been grooming him and Holdo was a fan as well, but also able to see his immaturity.

- "John Williams is a hack that just recycles and regurgitates themes!" - First of all, Williams is a self-admitted hack who has always stolen from the greats that came before (dude has a huge hard-on for Holst). Secondly, the entire Star War saga recycles and regurgitates themes. The fact that his music only helps to reinforce that is proof positive of how effective a composer he is. And thirdly, say one more negative thing about Williams' work and I will engage you in proper fisticuffs.

Fievel wrote:I wish everyone was as honest about that. But what ARE expectations at this point?

I expected a Star Wars movie. Plain and simple. I expected cheesy dialogue. I expected cool lightsaber battles - and I mean cool. Not necessarily long. Vader vs. Luke in Empire over the carbon freezing chamber wasn't long, but it was AWESOME. You could see Luke doing wicked Jedi things, but could also see how far behind Vader he was, in terms of using the Force. Honestly, Rey and Ren should've dispatched those guards in a matter of seconds. I didn't for an instance think either one of them could've lost. If you want people to be on the edge of their seat with excitement/anticipation - you need to give them the sense that their side could LOSE, that someone could DIE.

I expected more gripping space battles. Honestly, the main Rebellion ship being Just So Far ahead of the First Order that the blasters couldn't penetrate the shield was the dumbest thing I've seen in a Star Wars franchise that had Ewoks and Jar-Jar Binks. You're seriously telling me the First Order couldn't just go faster than a ship low on fuel? It was like watching the slow-speed OJ chase in outer space, but OJ's Ford Bronco run was more exciting and action packed.

Looper might've been great, but when you're handed the keys to a franchise that's been around and been MONSTROUSLY successful for 40 years, you don't fuck with what works. You just don't...

You can't go into a Star Wars movie without expectations. We've lived and breathed Star Wars since we first saw it. It's why we all came to the AICN and the Zone. And I, for one, expected a Star Wars movie. Not a Rian Johnson movie set in the Star Wars universe.

If I wanted to see a movie set in the Star Wars universe that didn't have the magic and heart of a Star Wars movie, I'd watch Rogue One again (which is better than The Last Jedi)

why couldn't they have killed off Leia when they had the chance? waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much screentime for her character, especially considering the stiff, weak performance that was almost painful to watch. I don't know if that is real Carrie Fisher or robot Carrie Fisher but either way, have her open her fucking mouth when she talks, goddammit! why do you give so much fucking dialogue to a character that can't fucking speak clearly or realistically? and Poe wasn't the arrogant one, it was Laura Dern's character who takes the cake for the single moast arrogant character in the movie, hands down, no contest. tell me why she had to keep her plan secret????? explain why she could not tell Poe and everyone else what they were doing? sure, poe went on a pointless mission but he wouldn't have if Dern's character had simpoly told him what the plan was instead of dimsissing him like a nobody. she treated people who had been fighting and risking their lives for the rebellion like peasants and she was royalty. and tell me, why didn't she turn the ship and do the lightspeed jump to begin with???? she was planning on staying behind and dying.....so why didn't the great fucking commander "my hair and my eyes match isn't that prescious" think of using the ship to take out Snope's cruiser to begin with???? she would have saved all those transports that were blown up. the plot device of the chase was fucking lame and the way it was executed was weak.

Luke was the strongest part of the movie for me. I think I would have preffered a flesh and blood showdown but i was ok with how things worked out. I think Rey and Kilo were handled pretty well, and I REALLY like that Rey's parent's were nobodies, dirtbags. it sets up the classic, hero who came from nothing versus the villain who was born into royalty. she wasn't a "chosen one", or a princess, or a regent, or the secret kid of a jedi or anything like that, just a commoner. I like how she is written and played. Kilo is still playing to Darth Vader's beats, willing to throw off his master but only with the idea that he will replace him, wanting to team up with Rey the same as Vader wanted to team up with Luke, the scene with Rey and Kilo clearly a rif on the scene with Vader and Luke in ESB. the standoff this time is more equal, though, as these movie are, among other things, strongly feminist, and so we don't get the parallel to a crying, snot-nosed Luke unable to deal with the confrontation with Vader either physically or emotionally, we get Rey who shows none of the weakness written for Luke in ESB. she handles the revelation of her parents much more stoically than Luke did.

I like the growing core team of Chewie, Poe, Rey, Finn, and the bots. its reminiscent of the old bunch, of course with 3 original members, but with its own identity. I really hope the next movie with feature them together for a good chunk of the movie instead of having them split up into several different storylines.

Benecio was great and i hope we get to see him again down the line, which i think is a real possibility.

no dog fights?!

I think it was WAY too hard for Rey and Kilo to take out those red armored guards. it just doesn't fit. best way i can think to say it without having to go through all the obvious points of why.

fucking ghost Yoda??? really?? and played just like a silly muppet. come on, man. that was i think the worst part of the movie for me, like they felt they needed to insert a few minutes of footage for all the 3 year olds in the audience. blech.

Finn was a letdown for most of the movie as a character, after a really promising start in Force Awakens. they really didn't show us much in character development to earn any emotion for that showdown with Briennetrooper. I did like his hero moment at the end, and I especially like the reasoning given for saving him. it's one that resonates with me a great deal considering the world we live in right now. I hope they let him step up into a more self-assured sense of himself next movie.

Chewie is Chewie, good 'ol Chewie, and that's cool with me. he is even more of a solid emotional anchor to tie back to the OT than the robots at this point, imo.

the look overall is gorgeous, very film-like, with shots that reminded me of conceptual drawings of the OT, and couldn't help but think of the contrast between the organic, film-like quality to the look of this movie and the super-clean, hi-def, cgi look of the prequels. it goes a long way to drawing the viewer in to the story they are watching, imo, and i hope to see more of it in Star Wars movies to come.

overall I liked it a good bit. not as much as Rogue One, which is still my favorite Star Wars movie, but better than Force Awakens and the other SW movies that came before it. sorry, I think ESB is one of the most over-rated movies of all time, and I like it.

Fievel you should not worry yourself with the opinions of others about something you like, and just indulge your own opinion of it. This film is yours now, it belongs to you. Just enjoy it for this. You'll be much happier.

As always happens each December now, I end up watching the new Star Wars film three times.

The first time I saw The Last Jedi: I left feeling disappointed.The second time: I seemed to have less issues with it.The third time: I'm feeling quite mixed about it.

There are things I liked about it. There lots of niggles which I still can't quite pinpoint. Overall, I can't say it's an entirely satisfying movie.

Some basic bullet points (for now):

The good:- it's a well designed & photographed movie- the sound design is fantastic- Character development of Rey, Kylo Ren, Luke- the first third- parts of the final third- most of the Jedi island plot.- Snokeship destruction.

The okay/average/alright/meh:- the visual effects were fine, although didn't quite have the overall solidity of The Force Awakens or Rogue One.- the editing seemed a bit uneven.- the score (surprisingly)- Character development of Finn- the story is basically parts of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi shoved together.

The not-so-good:- the middle third (the slowest space chase in history, Rebel cruiser civil war, the detour to a boring planet, the codebreaker stuff, Maz video game cutscene)- the slight disconnect with The Force Awakens, the lack of payoff from it, and seemingly forced efforts to cut ties with concepts raised in it.- Admiral Holdo- uneven character development- general inconsistencies.

Ultimately: It should have been primarily about Rey and Kylo (Luke & Snoke), with a background story featuring Finn, Poe and Leia in space to cut back to.

thomasgaffney wrote:Not as good as The Force Awakens in my opinion. A two-and-a-half hour character study that did little to advance the plot. Is it a Rian Johnson movie? Yes. Is it a Star Wars movie? No.

I know my opinion is driven by my expectations. When I go to a Star Wars movie, I'm not looking for dialogue that would earn a Best Screenplay Oscar. I'm not looking depth of characters what would earn a Best Actor/Actress Oscar. Hell, other than the "Luke, I am your father" moment, I'm not looking for the one end-all, be-all trilogy changing revelation. I'm looking for a Jedi Knights, lightsaber battles, the Millennium Falcon getting damaged, spaceship battles, the use of the Force, exciting entertainment, actiony, popcorn movie.

I was let down by the battles. I was let down by the lightsaber fight. I was let down by Finn's regression as a person in the beginning of the movie. I was disappointed in Poe's turn into a dumb-jock-pilot.

wow, we must have seen completely different movies because everything you missed, i saw plenty of. jedi knights? check. lightsaber battles? check. millenium falcon flying into battle like a MF? check. spaceship battles? check.

and use of the Force? holy-fucking-CHECK. maybe too much CHECK on that one.

i just got back and i'm still processing everything, there was stuff i liked, and some stuff i definitely didn't like (the whole Canto Bight sequence, for example, which felt prequel-level-bad at times) but one thing's for sure: that was a whole lotta fucking movie right there.

i know i should probably give myself more time to process the film, probably see it at least one more time, before commenting too much, but fuck it, it's fresh in my mind from seeing it tonight, and i already have thoughts and opinions, some of which i'll probably change my mind about with more time but whatever. and since i can actually read this thread now, i've got plenty to respond to (and in the tradition that has already been established since the film opened, i'll be eschewing SPOILER text here as well).

i think i can see now why this film is so polarizing. this is the most subversive SW film yet (2nd probably to TPM, which i think was more unintentionally subversive due to Lucas' creeping senility, and rogue one which was really only subversive in the way it killed everyone off). i don't mean subversive so much in political terms (though i feel like the film is definitely informed in many ways by the current political climate we're in, while not being too obvious about it) but in the way it subverts expectations, both about SW films specifically and about big-budget blockbuster films in general. whether you liked or hated the Finn/Poe/Rose subplot, it's hard not to admire the audaciousness it took to devote a huge subplot to a mission that is such a complete failure that it actually ruins the real plan and results in the near-destruction of the entire resistance. typically, in these kinds of films we get the plan that looks doomed to failure only to succeed in the final moment, and all that tension was just for dramatic effect, but here it really does produce a true disaster, with lots of damage and lives lost as a result. and sure, we get the final heroic act that saves the day, but only barely, and what's left of the resistance by the end of the film is much more hopeless than even ESB felt.

it's also pretty cheeky how this film took probably the two biggest questions raised by TFA and basically dismissed them as completely irrelevant. Rey's parents (at least if you believe Kylo Ren is telling the truth) spawned a billion theories all of which turned out to be false because no obsessive fan could conceive of a possible answer that didn't involve the usual connections we expect from these films. and Snoke's origin feels equally pointless now that he's out of the picture. i respect those choices, even if i'm not sure if i actually like them. i mean, i still think my "Rey is the lovechild of Luke and Leia from before they knew they were twins" explanation was the best possible one, but no one at Disney is signing a paycheck for me so they'll just have to live with that. i still feel that we need SOME explanation of where Snoke came from, even if it's just a matter of "he was one of the emperor's guards who had some force training and who survived the explosion of the 2nd death star, with some scars to show for it". nobody wonders or cares where Hux came from because he's obviously a tool and we've seen plenty of Empire lackeys in the SW universe in previous films, but Snoke was so powerful in the force, as demonstrated especially in this film, and his ability to take over the Empire and raise it back to power as the First Order, it feels like some explanation or context is due. i don't want or need an entire book or film to tell his whole backstory, just a few lines of dialogue will do. but, it's clear the perspective of this film is that the answers to those questions simply don't matter, so it's not going to provide them.

this film definitely has flaws. two of the biggest involve the slow motion space chase that made no sense to me at all. it just felt like a device to draw out the events long enough for all the other stuff in the film to happen. when Poe was demanding an explanation from Holdo i half expected her to yell back "i'm A.C. dammit! you know who i am!" which also bring up the 2nd ridiculous flaw, which is Holdo's inexplicable refusal to explain to Poe or the rest of the crew what her plan was. the only explanation is that it would've made about 1/3 of the movie completely unnecessary. those are both really big plot holes/story flaws that are hard to overlook.

there's plenty of other stuff that i would defend though. or at least explain as i understood it.

- luke's role in the final battle. the primary purpose was to enable the remnants of the resistance to escape. but the other purpose was to provide inspiration for people throughout the galaxy, as demonstrated by the final scene with the kids re-enacting luke's final stand. much of luke's journey in the film is about his reluctance to accept his role as a 'legend' but his final act cements his legacy and will presumably sow the seeds of hope that leia felt had gone out of the galaxy when no one responded to their distress calls.

- and as far as the title misleading anyone into thinking luke would have a bigger role in the outcome (even though he really did have a frikkin' huge role in the outcome): The Empire Strikes Back wasn't really about the Empire striking back, and Attack of the Clones wasn't really about clones attacking, so you can't put too much stock in a SW film title

- i did feel like Rey's role in the film was a bit lacking. it should have been Rey, not Yoda, who convinced Luke to get involved in the story again. and it felt like there wasn't nearly enough internal conflict for her character. since her story in this film is the most derivative of previous SW films (her plot is basically luke's plot from TESB, minus the Hoth section -- training with an old reluctant Jedi hermit, struggling with the dark side (though not as dramatically), and then rushing out before her training is complete only to find out about her true parentage) it lacked the impact on her character that those events had on luke in the OT. especially learning about her parents, even though i like the idea that it means she has to define her own role in the story instead of having it defined for her based on lineage. if she had been a Skywalker then her path would be predetermined. this way, it opens up the theme of destiny vs. free will, and Rey, having no genetic predispositions, will instead have only her own choices to make. the problem was, i never felt like she was tempted to make the wrong decision. when kylo ren is asking her to join him, i never felt her struggling with her choice. hopefully in the next film there will be more room for that.

- on the other hand, i felt like this film did give Poe some character development. in TFA he's a really good pilot at the beginning and still a good pilot at the end, but there's not much depth to his character at all. in this film, we see a reckless side which we didn't see in TFA (but doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't not there) and it persists through the whole film, but by the end i felt he was beginning to see the consequences of his rash actions. it's only the beginning, but i do think it opens up the character to develop into more than just a kickass pilot in the next film.

- not sure how i feel about all the force powers. i'm pretty much ok with Luke projecting himself halfway across the galaxy, since that doesn't seem too far off from being able to project yourself to the living after you're dead... it's probably actually less impressive. also not sure about Snoke's ability to play telepathic switchboard operator, especially since he knows nothing about Rey, has never met her, doesn't know where she is or anything, yet he's able to somehow set up a psychic link to her for kylo ren without either knowing about it. if he could do that, it feels like it'd be easier just to tap into her brain and figure out where she is and then follow her there to find luke, instead of using it as some convoluted plot to lure luke to him. and as for leia's spacewalk... i guess i could buy it as some kind of last minute Force-derived survival instinct that enabled her to tap into powers otherwise inaccessible to her. but it still looked pretty silly.

- rey/kylo vs. snoke's guard... i took these guards to be the Knights of Ren who were mentioned in TFA (though i still don't know who Ren is, or WTF Stimpy isn't right there with him). and when luke tells Rey about what happened between Ben and him, i'm pretty sure he mentioned that Ben took some of the jedi's Luke had been training with him when he left. so i took those knights to be, basically, a mix of the students that Ben took with him after leaving Luke, along with maybe some others that Snoke was training. they've at least had more force training than Rey. and Kylo Ren himself got beaten by Rey in TFA. so neither Kylo nor Rey are necessarily unbeatable warriors, especially when outnumbered against trained but less powerful students of the force. so that fight was believable to me.

- a lot of the humor worked. some didn't. and some worked for me but took me out of the film a bit at the same time (luke's response to kylo's attempt to annihilate him for example... made me laugh but also felt a bit too contemporary. at least he didn't do the dab).

- i thought carrie fisher's performance was fine... definitely an improvement over TFA

- benicio's performance was distracting. i hope at least if he does come back for the next one, they don't turn him into a lando. the SW universe has enough scoundrels with hearts of gold. it's ok to have one with a heart of stone for a change.

- what happened to R2? i loved his reunion with Luke, and his way of prodding luke to get back involved with events. but then he just sort of disappears. i don't even know where he was during the final third of the film. did he return with chewie and rey on the MF? maybe he was there in the background somewhere, hiding behind a porg or something, but if so i missed him. or did he stay behind with luke on achoo? (gesundheit!) and if so, who's gonna go back to get him?considering he was a prop for most of TFA, i hoped he'd have a bit more of a role in this film. as far as this trilogy goes, so far, i have to say, i find your lack of R2 disturbing.

I think the problem with Luke from a writer's perspective is that it's hard to get his role satisfactory in terms of his power and what it can do.

If he turns up and truly wins the day for the Resistance and defeats the First Order as they and the First Order thought he would, then this is a Deus Ex Machina problem for the story, as eh Luke is still the overall winning hero - so who needs anyone else? Who needs Rey? So this new trilogy isn't so much about her and the new heroes as it still comes down to good ol' Luke to just snap his fingers and the whole problem is solved.

Apparently there was problems with Michael Arndt writing earlier drafts of his script because everytime Luke turned up, attention and excitement was magnetically pulled toward him and all other characters, Rey included I would imagine, were just overlooked or ignored.

So it's a problem of show Luke to be this big fighting force who kicks complete ass which satisfies what we want from this long awaited returning character, or to have him less assured and strong and play a lesser and maybe an underwhelming part in fighting the First Order and Kylo Ren but that would still create enough room for Rey and the new heroes to win the fight against the dark forces.

So with all our criticisms of Luke, please... think about the writers and the tough corner they had to write themselves out of.

May the Force be with... I hate the way that line was used in this film... "No you first!", "No please, you go first" Oh just hang up and get in the fucking ship!

i think Luke's character was handled well. he's basically a disillusioned version of Obi-Wan. and i think that fits both his OT arc and the events that came between ROTJ and TFA. i've always had a hard time buying Luke as a full-fledged Jedi... whereas someone like Obi-Wan was trained as a Jedi from childhood, grew up in the order and never knew anything else, Luke was already nearly grown up before being pulled into the ways of the Force. and then, the little bit of training he got from Obi-Wan on the MF, and a few weeks of training at most from Yoda on Dagobah, and suddenly he's supposed to be as much of a Jedi as those guys? nuh-uh. don't buy it.

i've always interpreted the 'Jedi' in 'Return of the Jedi' to be a reference to ANAKIN skywalker, not LUKE skywalker. because Luke was never a true Jedi, like Anakin was. so when the OT ends, Anakin has returned so to speak from the dark side, and you've got Luke who's basically a powerful Force user with a little bit of Jedi training, but he's not a Jedi. or if he is, he's a completely new kind of Jedi, because all the stuff the Jedi order preached about not having attachments and stuff, he completely ignored. his attachment to Han and Leia, and especially to what was left of his father inside of Vader, is what won the day for the rebellion. to whatever extent he is a Jedi, it's like Reform Jedi-ism vs. Orthodox Jedi-ism. and he's still woefully undertrained by old school Jedi standards.

so when he attempts to train a new bunch of Jedi, it's not surprising that he will fail. his own training was never completed. and then he doesn't have that training to fall back on, like Obi-Wan did, or the faith and the conviction that the light side would win out, after his own apprentice betrays him. Obi-Wan had that, and it was what sustained him all those years in the desert in Tattooine, waiting for Luke to grow up. Luke doesn't have that 'new hope' to hold on to, so it's completely believable that he would fall into despair and detachment, to want to hide away from it all and become a hermit. Rey (and R2, and Yoda's force ghost) are what bring him back from that despair and convince him to get involved again, and while he doesn't single-handedly destroy the First Order and restore peace and happiness to the galaxy (which would have been lame, it would've been like if Obi-Wan used the Force to blow up the Death Star and kill Vader and the Emperor at the end of Ep IV), what he does is reignite that hope in others, the same hope the he had lost himself, and enable the escape of the resistance who will live on to fight and win another day. Rey is still the hero of this trilogy, and her chance to become the savior of the galaxy will presumably come in the next film, but TLJ was Luke's chance to sacrifice himself so that that could happen. i think that's a fitting story for Luke's character, and a lot better than if he had just been a 'good guy in hiding for no reason' like some fans seem to wish for.

so those fans can just suck it. there's plenty to complain about in this film, but Luke's legacy is just fine.

Maui wrote:Rey’s parentage. Still in the dark here. Unless you want to go by Kylo’s fake-out or Battlefront 2’s explanataion.

Regarding Battlefront 2......(Campaign Spoilers)

That was an odd possibility of Iden and Del being Rey's parents, but the Resurrection DLC finishes out Iden's story as you play alongside her daughter Zay, who is very much NOT Rey.

Maui wrote:Still processing this film.

It's been 5 days since I've seen it and I'm STILL processing it. Rogue One had that effect for me a little bit. The Force Awakens was pretty straight-forward, although Rey's lightsaber vision stuck with me. None of the prequels left lingering internal thoughts/debates like this movie has. I need a second viewing!!!!

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

looks like at least some of the people bitching and whining about the movie are the same people who complained about a "black stormtrooper" in TFA, about having a female character as the lead, about having female ghostbusters, about having a black female star trek lead, and basically anything they perceive as overly PC or progressive in the entertainment industry. i don't think it's too hard to figure out who these people are... the same dumbass redditors and youtube commenters and other horrible people who hide behind their anonymous online identities to spread their diseased neanderthal souls across the internet. obviously not everyone who dislikes this movie belongs to that group, just like not everyone who hated the new ghostbusters (see: me) was a racist, sexist troll. but anyone who uses the term SJW in a movie review or, basically, anywhere, is an asshole. and as far as those people go i stand by my original statement: they should be fucked up the ass with a lightsaber dildo.

it's not hard to see why those kinds of people would dislike this film. whatever political leanings were evident in TFA and rogue one are even more obvious here. and the First Order is basically the alt-right in outer space. so a film with pro-immigrant, pro-diversity, anti-war and anti-profiteering undercurrents (even going so far as to introduce a bunch of cute penguin-aliens to turn chewie into a vegetarian), it's no surprise it doesn't sit well with them. well, let me scan my terminator display for a proper response... oh, there it is: fuck you, asshole! maybe SW wasn't always as blatant in it's progressive leanings as ST (or almost all sci-fi, for that matter) but even the OT had plenty of forward-thinking elements. it was always about the little guy beating back against the big oppressive forces of evil (even when it had to resort to crap like ewoks to drive the point home). princess leia was the progenitor for other strong female characters in sci-fi(ish) films like ripley and sarah conner and... well, there aren't a whole lot of others but that's changing now, and all these guys who apparently derive their masculinity from seeing white male characters dominate geek films are just gonna have to deal with that. or complain about it on twitter and facebook, whatever. if you don't like it, how about you start your own white male self-masturbatory sci-fi franchise to soothe your fragile ego? or better yet, just make another version of The Fountainhead for all the rest of us to ignore.

Maui wrote:Rey’s parentage. Still in the dark here. Unless you want to go by Kylo’s fake-out or Battlefront 2’s explanataion.

Regarding Battlefront 2......(Campaign Spoilers)

That was an odd possibility of Iden and Del being Rey's parents, but the Resurrection DLC finishes out Iden's story as you play alongside her daughter Zay, who is very much NOT Rey.

Given the main episodic movies are meant to be the "Saga of the Skywalkers", and assuming they don't mean to end them completely with Episode 9, that they are sticking with Ken as the Skywalker and not Rey is perhaps a bit odd.

the more I have been turning things over in my head since seeing it Sunday the more I worry I might end up closer to where you are aftter watching it again. just for starters, the more I think about it, the more I feel my initial acceptance of Luke's storyline was premature and didn't go deep enough. as i rehash the movie and sort through all the implications I find I have a very difficult time reconciling the Luke we see at the end of RotJ and the one who this movie asks us to believe came after. RotJ Luke had more belief and faith in the Force and in good than the one we are given in this movie, not "now" but how he is portrayed in th epast giving up on the school and Kylo. anyway, this is definitely a movie that suffers with greater scrutiny, imo.

looks like at least some of the people bitching and whining about the movie are the same people who complained about a "black stormtrooper" in TFA, about having a female character as the lead, about having female ghostbusters, about having a black female star trek lead, and basically anything they perceive as overly PC or progressive in the entertainment industry. i don't think it's too hard to figure out who these people are... the same dumbass redditors and youtube commenters and other horrible people who hide behind their anonymous online identities to spread their diseased neanderthal souls across the internet. obviously not everyone who dislikes this movie belongs to that group, just like not everyone who hated the new ghostbusters (see: me) was a racist, sexist troll. but anyone who uses the term SJW in a movie review or, basically, anywhere, is an asshole. and as far as those people go i stand by my original statement: they should be fucked up the ass with a lightsaber dildo.

it's not hard to see why those kinds of people would dislike this film. whatever political leanings were evident in TFA and rogue one are even more obvious here. and the First Order is basically the alt-right in outer space. so a film with pro-immigrant, pro-diversity, anti-war and anti-profiteering undercurrents (even going so far as to introduce a bunch of cute penguin-aliens to turn chewie into a vegetarian), it's no surprise it doesn't sit well with them. well, let me scan my terminator display for a proper response... oh, there it is: fuck you, asshole! maybe SW wasn't always as blatant in it's progressive leanings as ST (or almost all sci-fi, for that matter) but even the OT had plenty of forward-thinking elements. it was always about the little guy beating back against the big oppressive forces of evil (even when it had to resort to crap like ewoks to drive the point home). princess leia was the progenitor for other strong female characters in sci-fi(ish) films like ripley and sarah conner and... well, there aren't a whole lot of others but that's changing now, and all these guys who apparently derive their masculinity from seeing white male characters dominate geek films are just gonna have to deal with that. or complain about it on twitter and facebook, whatever. if you don't like it, how about you start your own white male self-masturbatory sci-fi franchise to soothe your fragile ego? or better yet, just make another version of The Fountainhead for all the rest of us to ignore.

Hmmm, you see, it's posts like this that hit back with such aggression and rudeness without taking a civil approach to these disagreeing people, not matter how immature they may be too, that go against not just ethics of behaviour towards people, but is also against the spirit of 'No Hate Just Debate' of this forum.

Quite frankly, TheBaxter, talk like this ("Fuck you fuck your ass fuck off and if you don't like it let's see you do better" Oh God) cant can get you banned from here, and should.