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The problem is is that because America is such a developed country, and New Orlean's infrastructure has been destroyed, its probably worse for people from New Orleans than say if the disaster had happened in a less developed country

Hey, the USA is the country who's politics are centered around "every man for himself" and it is precisely that mindset which is awoken in times of catastrophe.

Let the looters loot and sort it out later. A lot of it is pure survival looting anyway.

Quote:Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.."They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"

Fortunately the US Government is empathic to the general state of despair and sent in troops to help them. Umm.. Help them?

Quote:"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said of 300 National Guard troops who landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

What the FUCK is wrong with your government? Troops who just returned from a warzone are in a delicate state of mind. They are returning from "the warzone" to "home sweet home where all is safe".

Not this time. These troops, still mentally in a "warzone" mentality are placed in a situation resembling a warzone IN their "safe homeland".

And why? Why UNETHICALLY expose troops to a second wave of psychological onslaught? Why risk the obvious chance that one or a few lose it and runs amok?

To scare the "inner city residents" into submission, thats why.Let's teach 'em boys a lesson. This is Louisiana after all.

Several countries have offered to come to your aid like is customary in great disasters worldwide. But nooo, the US Gov't is too proud. Let's WAIVE the internatioonal aid. No need for peace troopers, let's send troops with "locked and loaded M16s" who are "fresh from Iraq" who are "more than willing to shoot and kill."

Your Government fucking sucks.

There should be massive overwhelming aid, not psychologically wobbling war vets with M-16s.

--international aid was blatantly refused--the citizens of New Orleans are duped--the troops are duped--the people of the US are blinded to view the victims of the disaster as criminals who should be shot.

If I were in that area I would stay put until it was clear how the situation was. This means looting for supplies necessary for survival, which would include a 12 gauge shotgun.

The social breakdown is normal and perfectly predictable. It fits American society and it fits human nature during catastrophies.

But for the "social breakdown" among your government there is NO EXCUSE.

Some of the chaos and the looting is to be expected. After all, it is a very bad disaster, and while some plans and preparations can be made, you're never fully prepared for such a big thing. So it's obvious many people are going to get hungry, and the looting for the sake of survival is to be expected.

On the other hand, one would expect the number one nation in the world to be more prepared than what we saw here. I hear there's been a lack of money to build dams, because of the cost of the war on terrorism and the Iraq invasion. That's a first problem.Second, your question is easily answered. Disasters happen everywhere. In Switzerland, there have been major floods very recently. Admitted, they didn't hit major city, but still, it's another rich country with high gun ownership. Nothing comparable happened. In the poor countries hit by the tsunami, I haven't heard of any comparable looting, where people went out to steal consumer goods.

I guess this goes to show what an angry and dual society the US has become. The anger is understandable, when your country hits the four corners of the world to spread freedom, democracy and free market, while at home you have to wait for help for days on end and don't even get a decent rescue.

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:Hey, the USA is the country who's politics are centered around "every man for himself"

Bullshit. Socialism is alive and well in America.

The U.S. federal government spends 40% of its budget on paying for old and poor people's medical care (over 1 trillion dollars last year) through the Medicaid and Medicare programs. Poor people get free housing, medical care, free food, free education from K-12, and extensive grants for post high school education.

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:

Quote:"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said of 300 National Guard troops who landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

What the FUCK is wrong with your government?

To scare the "inner city residents" into submission, thats why.Let's teach 'em boys a lesson. This is Louisiana after all.

Your Government fucking sucks.

Order needs to be restored. There are people walking the streets with AK-47's who are looting, car jacking, and attacking aid workers. I have no problem with people looting the necessities, but when somebody loots jewelry or stuff like that, then shoot the scumbags on sight. The only way to stop blatant anarchy and opportunism like this is through force.

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:--the people of the US are blinded to view the victims of the disaster as criminals who should be shot.

I would gander that 95% of them are victims and 5% are criminals.

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:The social breakdown is normal and perfectly predictable. It fits American society and it fits human nature during catastrophies.

Here we go again. The predictable Wiccan_Seeker Leftist condescending attitude toward us "neanderthal Americans". Because we don't have a national socialized healthcare system that covers everyone, we are "barbarians"? Most of those looters are poor I would assume. Therefore, most of those looters probably get free stuff from the government as it is.

I have traveled extensively in this country and I estimate that 10% of white Americans are trash and about 25% of black Americans are trash. When I say "trash" I don't mean poor people, I mean people who impose themselves upon society in a bad way (thieves, murderers, etc...). I do however think that "trash" is more likely to be confined to poor people because people who can't get their lives together financially oftentimes cannot get their lives together morally or socially.

I'll tell you my opinion of why there was so much unnecessary looting; a somewhat significant amount of the black community in America is trash. Most American black people are good people, but a significant minority are not. The black community in general has rejected "white things". Unfortunately for them, education is seen as one of these "white things". So, when you have people not becoming as educated as they should, free government handouts, and a self-inflicted sense of victimhood, you get a lot of problems.

In my opinion, this looting and chaos is not a symptom of how bad American society is. This whole situation is a symptom of how fucked up the black community in America is.

Listen all you freaking English libs, what happened in new Orleans is not a sign of social decay, and people looting, and loosing there fucking mind should be expected. ITS A CAT 5 hurricane what do you expect? also, think about it this way, the only people causing any problems are the people who stayed.. And you'd have to be fucking crazy to sit there and stay, at a city below sea level when a cat 5 is hurling at you with wind speed of 175 mph and a surge the size of a 3 storie building(personaly i'd of stayed)... This is the way i see it, actually there are two ways send the national guard down there and stomp there ass, and or why don't we evacuate and desert that nasty ass city anyway, let the looters sit there i wouldn't care in fact we should take all the refuges move them top Alexandra and call it the new, new Orleans... now let me get the the politics

Hey, the USA is the country who's politics are centered around "every man for himself" and it is precisely that mindset which is awoken in times of catastrophe.

Let the looters loot and sort it out later. A lot of it is pure survival looting anyway.

Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.."They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"

"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said of 300 National Guard troops who landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

What the FUCK is wrong with your government? Troops who just returned from a warzone are in a delicate state of mind. They are returning from "the warzone" to "home sweet home where all is safe".

Not this time. These troops, still mentally in a "warzone" mentality are placed in a situation resembling a warzone IN their "safe homeland".

And why? Why UNETHICALLY expose troops to a second wave of psychological onslaught? Why risk the obvious chance that one or a few lose it and runs amok?

To scare the "inner city residents" into submission, thats why.Let's teach 'em boys a lesson. This is Louisiana after all.

Several countries have offered to come to your aid like is customary in great disasters worldwide. But nooo, the US Gov't is too proud. Let's WAIVE the internatioonal aid. No need for peace troopers, let's send troops with "locked and loaded M16s" who are "fresh from Iraq" who are "more than willing to shoot and kill."

Your Government fucking sucks.

There should be massive overwhelming aid, not psychologically wobbling war vets with M-16s.

--international aid was blatantly refused--the citizens of New Orleans are duped--the troops are duped--the people of the US are blinded to view the victims of the disaster as criminals who should be shot.

If I were in that area I would stay put until it was clear how the situation was. This means looting for supplies necessary for survival, which would include a 12 gauge shotgun.

The social breakdown is normal and perfectly predictable. It fits American society and it fits human nature during catastrophies.

But for the "social breakdown" among your government there is NO EXCUSE.

If you can do something to help, then do it today

Now aren't you a character interesting view, honestly it really isn't because i hear it all the time, let me guess your one of those yellow toothed English liberals, who lean on peace, to fill like your "A good person", let me tell you something, when you have a group of people in your country after a natural disaster shooting at your peace core, then you can sit here and talk your non sense, until then where gonna go stomp these out of control lunatics back into order.. And its not mean, its not cruel, not towards the soldiers we send, or towards the looters, it's what's necessary to keep order.. its kinda funny people do there thing act in line when they can see law, but the second the law is not insight, or the sun goes down, it chaos hypocrites are what they are... similar to cows, they'd never go anywhere if you didn't herd them. and what do you mean where not excepting help?! there red cross and fema all over the south don't tell me where not excepting help.. and when you say its because where to "proud" DAMN RIGHT WHERE PROUD! We are the greatest country in the world, and if another country doesn't like it, blow me... I'm sorry that Ive been so rude it truly wasn't my intention, lol, the bottom line is that there was a disaster there are many dead, the streets are filled with water, and because of this there is a sense of lawlessness, and order must be restored.. Its kinda funny, you liberals you act all caring, and what not, but as soon as a disaster happens in the USA and many people die, all you can say is fuck the USA..

Most modern cities break down within days if any part of their support structure breaks down (loss of power, water, fuel, ect).

Toss in a category 4/5 hurricane and lose all the support structures...it was bound to happen.

They should have had buses running 24/7 to evac as many people as possible before the storm. I thought the evac was "mandatory"?

I don't understand how the authorities in the area and federally didn't expect this kind of thing to occur - unless they are under that peculiar illusion that "American citizen" is of a higher caliber human than "foreigner" (actually most countries suffer from this illusion). Turns out Americans are just like all the rest of us humans - when the shit hits the fan we go collectively crazy.

Only in America, imo. There wasn't this kind of social chaos after the Tsunamis. I think worst that happened after the Tsunamis was a bunch of poor people pick pocketing dead tourists. I just heard some reports on TV of people raping kids in the Super Dome at night, snipers shooting evacuated hospital patients, and police officers being drowned by rioters.

--------------------Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

The evac WAS mandatory. The best they did for some who had no transportation was bus them to the superdome, which is in the soup bowl. They knew the levee's were designed to handle up to a Cat 3 and they knew a Cat 5 to 4 was coming.

Police officers were going house to house along the coast line asking people to leave. "Asking" isn't mandatory is it? They should have been ordered to leave. Even on the news, the Mayor was asking people to leave. He wasn't ORDERING. You kept hearing the word "people are being "asked" to evacuate.

Even with taking some to the dome in the soup bowl, it filled up past capacity by Sat night and people who walked there were being turned away.

I think the state didn't have the resources to enforce it. The other problem is that recent storms in the past turned and people get pissed when they evacuate and prep for no reason and for some "dumb" reason, they thought this one would miss them.

"Order needs to be restored. There are people walking the streets with AK-47's who are looting, car jacking, and attacking aid workers. I have no problem with people looting the necessities, but when somebody loots jewelry or stuff like that, then shoot the scumbags on sight. The only way to stop blatant anarchy and opportunism like this is through force."-RandalFlagg yes because all you need to survive is a trunck load of beer these people should be shot on site

I'm not english.I'm not a liberal.The statememts I made were about US politics, not it's citizens.

But since we're comparing New Orleans with the Tsunami: In the countries struck by the Tsunami the overwhelming majority did something in some way to help the people out.

They didnt need astrodomes or other facilities to temporarily house the victims because the people took them in their homes.

The overwhelming majority of Americans I encounter here on the Shroomery however play the race card and talk about shooting looters on sight. There's a disaster and you're fighting eachother in the streets of New Orleans and on the internet.

How's about lending a hand to those in need?

Several countries have offered their aid and your government dismissed that. OK, then the ball is in your court. If vicious ranting about looters and race was real-life aid the Politics & Activism forum would be very generous.

This thread is about non-American opinions about the state of anarchy, let's not derail it any further. Now i'm not impressed with the way your government handles it and I believe the state of anarchy is predictable and understandable. Let's proceed.

To me, it seems the US authorities were massively underprepared for this. I think most developing countries responded to the Tsunami better (India for example, which didn't request outside help at first). I think the 'anarchy' is an inevitable result of the catestrophic failure of the government to fullfill its role in the circumstances

I know if I was poor, and had lost everything, and was in a disaster zone with no prospect of assistance, I would grab food, guns, and anything I thought I could sell later on to recompense for the loss of my job/house/everything...I certainly wouldnt expect the government to provide long term help, given that thye didnt seem to be able to do anything effective in the short term.

So i think the response by the people is 'normal', but that by the government is not. I think most other countries with naywhere near as much wealth as the US, would be able to handle things much more effecitvely.

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:The social breakdown is normal and perfectly predictable. It fits American society and it fits human nature during catastrophies.

then you said:

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:The statememts I made were about US politics, not it's citizens.

Um...that sounds like a bit of a contradiction. You very clearly made some insinuations that American citizens seem to be from a "bad" or "sick" society, and then you say that you are talking about politics and not the citizens?

I can sense the anti-American venom and condescension in your post. It seems to be all too prevalent amongst Europeans that I speak to over the internet. This anti-American attitude has some basis in fact (how fucked up the Iraq war is for example), but it also has basis in assumptions and bias.

I'm not at all suggesting America as a society is sick. Your political and corporate system has distinct sociopathic traits but I'm not confusing "America, the people" with "America, the government".

Let me give an outsider view.

Your society embraces independence (its not for nothing that independence day is celebrated with clear enthusiasm) and lays heavy emphasis on individual freedom. A key facet of American culture is that if you excel beyond your peers you will rise above them in status and success. (the "american dream" basically) Now with this heavy emphasis on individuality comes an aversion of the state meddling with your affairs. Basically, people should make it on their own and should pull themselves up when bad circumstances push them down.

This is an "every man for himself" attitude, which reflects itself in an aversion against a welfare system, against affirmative action and percieved favoritism.

For me, personally, this is undesirable. But it is not "sick" or a "caveman society", I didn't use those words nor intended them. It's simply another line of thought. There is a tendency that Europeans tend to favor and tolerate more interference by the state in their lives than Americans. Cultural differences.

It is the mentality that rises to the surface if people are thrown upon themselves by catastrophy or lack of authority and that is exactly what has happened in New Orleans.

If you are poor, looting is perfectly natural under circumstances like these, because you live in a consumer society where everything what was pout of reach now suddenly is up for grabs. Just hurl a brick through the window and that what you desired is yours.Its inherent to human nature.

Then there's a group of people who live with an urge to kill and destroy. When society's fabric crumbled in 1930s-1940s Germany, or 1990s Rwanda they were the ones committing the atrocities. These people live among us and given circumstances some act out their urges. These are the people shooting rescue workers (and random people) and they should be knocked down. There is nothing racial about that, it's just a percentage of people of any race are like that.These are the people that cannot cope with a lawless state because they tend to take brutal, cruel advantage of it.

You've got people who are standing their ground, clinging to their home. You have people walking the street in shock. You have people trying to flee and you got looters. And finally you have that small percentage of people on the verge or already into a bloodlust frenzy.

If you look at New Orleans pictures it's like the Bomb dropped. Water, bloated corpses floating around, heat, stench, damp atmosphere, all these people doing their thing..

It is a horrible, maddening nightmare, a humanitarian crisis. There should be immediate action to end this madness, neutralize the "hostiles" and get the civilians (looters included) out of there without any policing. Policing is for after the fact. Save these people first.

This should be done with fresh (no Iraq action) troops capable of taking the full psychological wallop troops are trained to take. This should be done with aid workers from all over the world. Get those 40.000 men and the 500 buses the mayor requested in there.

While all this goes down set up refugee shelters with medical facilities. Like said, this all went smoothly for India, Sri Lanka and other third world nations struck by the Tsunami.

I'm going to by ironic.If "Kathrina" was the name of an Al Qaida cell then the nation would be on red alert and the place would be swarming with military, reservists and the like. The situation would be stable in 48 hours. It's not that the USA is incapable of providing the aid. It's that they're being indecisive in a black chapter of the nation's history.And that cannot be justified.

Sri Lanka got it done.India got it done.And they expect us to believe the USA cannot get it done?

I'm not anti-American but your government stinks. There were two days for mass evacuation. They could've pulled a "run like the wind" disaster manual from the shelf as they were used in the cold war in case of nuclear attack. They could've improvised, but all this did not happen.

Randalflagg, terrorism is a major concern of yours. Think about this: if the readiness of the nation really is as lousy as was the case with New Orleans, Al Quaida can announce they planted a nuke in a city two days in advance and the US government will get jack shit done, not even a proper evac.

New Orleans was going down. A Magnitude 5 hurricane would sweep directly over the city (which it didnt) and the government, who had a two day warning, failed miserably in the evacuation, the containment, and now they're failing miserably in the aftermath.

The looting, social breakdown and anarchy following the catastrophy are sad but entirely understandable. There is however no excuse for the horrible failure of the government. I don't care if they are leftwing or rightwing or straight through the middle: 80% of India lives on less than $1 wages a day and even THEY could get it done.

I'm not anti-American. The AMERICANS are suffering, while the politicians are throwing up a big smokescreen blaming the looters for an act of God. Don't be misled.

Quote:Wiccan_Seeker said:Let the looters loot and sort it out later. A lot of it is pure survival looting anyway.

Yes! Just the other day I realized I didn't have the 20 pairs of Air Jordans that I needed and I don't have four TV's! The pain! The suffering!

Quote:

What the FUCK is wrong with your government? Troops who just returned from a warzone are in a delicate state of mind. They are returning from "the warzone" to "home sweet home where all is safe".

Yea, putting people trained to deal with disasters, people who have a command structure set up, and who are armed into a situation where armed mobs are running the streets is a HORRIBLE idea. I'm thinking it's time to mobilize the Girl Scouts with the Care Bears leading the pack!

Quote:

Not this time. These troops, still mentally in a "warzone" mentality are placed in a situation resembling a warzone IN their "safe homeland".

So people who are used to war are being put in a warzone? And thats bad? You did it. I'm convinced. Putting the best trained people in situation is a HORRIBLE idea! Lets put..... ah... Wheelchair-ridden cancer patients! That'll do it!

Quote:

And why? Why UNETHICALLY expose troops to a second wave of psychological onslaught? Why risk the obvious chance that one or a few lose it and runs amok?

When the NO rioters start using car bombs, you can make the connection. Your view of the armed forces is whacky and off-kilter.

Quote:

To scare the "inner city residents" into submission, thats why.Let's teach 'em boys a lesson. This is Louisiana after all.

Thats exactly why. People that are shooting at doctors need to be tortured in the streets. They should take out the Huey's and bring in Apaches.

Quote:

Several countries have offered to come to your aid like is customary in great disasters worldwide. But nooo, the US Gov't is too proud. Let's WAIVE the internatioonal aid. No need for peace troopers, let's send troops with "locked and loaded M16s" who are "fresh from Iraq" who are "more than willing to shoot and kill."

Are you suggesting that using foreign soldiers on US terrirtory to kill our out-of-control civilians is a good idea? Monroe doctrine pnws that idea, 4 lyfe dawg.

Quote:

There should be massive overwhelming aid, not psychologically wobbling war vets with M-16s.

*rolls eyes* Sure, thats what they are. Why don't you summon the spirits of Earth and Wind to move the water, witchboy

Quote:

--international aid was blatantly refused

I just saw Condi thanking a number of nations for their donations. What aid is being BLATANTLY refused, Matilda? Why don't you hop on a broom and head down.

Quote:

--the citizens of New Orleans are duped

Yes, they are. After four days telling them to move out, they didn't. What a dupe!

Quote:

--the troops are duped

I thought that they were brain-dead zombies, shellshocked from their horrific experience in the OIL IS BAD war?

Quote:

--the people of the US are blinded to view the victims of the disaster as criminals who should be shot.

Again Wiccaboy, summon the spirits of Drakkar and send them to the Nether worlds! Or answer my question why I only see USGC choppers there and no gunships. Oh, hah, thats right. You are wrong. The same reason that you made this entire reply.

Quote:

If I were in that area I would stay put until it was clear how the situation was. This means looting for supplies necessary for survival, which would include a 12 gauge shotgun.

I wish you would. That would be a massive felony. you could make witch rings in the prison, all the cowardly white guys who know best bent over one bar of soap summoning some sperm into their anus'.

Quote:

The social breakdown is normal and perfectly predictable. It fits American society and it fits human nature during catastrophies.

I lived in SC during a few hurricanes, didn't see this happening. Doesn't happen in Kansas after tornadoes.

Quote:

If you can do something to help, then do it today

I summon, CAPTAIN PLANET!

--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane