It does not change the fact that the President, with the biggest bullhorn, had an opportunity and due to political calculations he took the cowardly path.

Really? If anything, I think he think he took the risky path given the (wrong-headed - there's a new one for c-man) public sentiment on it. If I was one of his minions concerned about the political calculus, I would have advised him to keep his trap shut.

__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55

Hey, for years on end I couldn't pay people to come into this thread and debate.

I find Islamoblog II off to a far better start than Islamoblog I.

__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55

__________________
I do Tracer's bidding! -Slop101
Third World countries are worthy of our derision. -Sean O'Hara
Personally, I would say that Tracer Bullet is leading you in the wrong direction. -Supermallet

No. The overwhelming blames lies at the feet of our "leaders", particularly a few GOP elected officials and Newt, as well as the President. whose lack of leadership on this issue has been appalling.

The politicians can say whatever they want. If the media wants to keep a story running they will. So I respectfully disagree and thankfully we can keep our Pharoh-VinVega disagreement percentage at 100% on every issue.

__________________
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Really? If anything, I think he think he took the risky path given the (wrong-headed - there's a new one for c-man) public sentiment on it. If I was one of his minions concerned about the political calculus, I would have advised him to keep his trap shut.

Risky by essentially saying what has been ridiculed ad nauseam here? That they have the legal right to build it, but not really sure they should seems downright tame and mainstream. Where was the guy who gave the speech in Egypt?

Risky by essentially saying what has been ridiculed ad nauseam here? That they have the legal right to build it, but not really sure they should seems downright tame and mainstream. Where was the guy who gave the speech in Egypt?

Well I guess I see it as:

Riskiest - for him to take my view
Risky - what he did
Not risky - not saying a thing

__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55

I see it more as that he made a statement he did not think would be risky or controversial, and then when faced with the slightest bit of political backlash he immediately backtracked.

In the last thread, I mentioned my surprise that he commented at all on the subject. As I said then - he must have been flying solo on that because I couldn't imagine his handlers would counsel him to discuss the matter, knowing what the public sentiment was and that he would obviously at least defend the right. So I agree with your assessment above that he didn't anticipate controversy (or at least the level of controversy).

__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55

Really? If anything, I think he think he took the risky path given the (wrong-headed - there's a new one for c-man) public sentiment on it. If I was one of his minions concerned about the political calculus, I would have advised him to keep his trap shut.

First day - yes

Second day - the cowards way out

I would also had advised him to keep his mouth shut. But, he was going to be hounded by the media if he had. On second thought - he's such a darling of the media, maybe not.

But what I wouldn't do is claim that they can't build something on property they own or that they don't have the right to their stupid opinion (and the right to speak it) on race.

The view of some on tolerance is certainly interesting. Some seem to believe that 100% opposition to a person or groups view on something is intolerance.

I tend to think of it as physically not allowing something. But in the end, it's whatever definition's convenient for people I think...

Back to the Islamic Center, is it reasonable for someone to simply have a disagreement with it? Not saying they can't build or don't have the right, but just not liking it. I understand that's not how the clowns out protesting it are coming across, but just as my own personal opinion - is that acceptable?

SALINA, KSLocal man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

"I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

"And now they want to build a mosque at Ground Zero," continued Gentries, eliminating any distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and Muslims in general. "No, I won't examine the accuracy of that statement, but yes, I will allow myself to be outraged by it and use it as evidence of these people's universal callousness toward Americans who lost loved ones when the Twin Towers fell."

"Even though I am not one of those people," he added.

When told that the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" is actually a community center two blocks north of the site that would include, in addition to a public prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant, and athletic facilities, Gentries shook his head and said, "I know all I'm going to let myself know."

Gentries explained that it "didn't take long" to find out as much about the tenets of Islam as he needed to. He said he knew Muslims stoned their women for committing adultery, trained for terrorist attacks at fundamentalist madrassas, and believed in jihad, which Gentries described as the thing they used to justify killing infidels.

"All Muslims are at war with America, and I will resist any attempt to challenge that assertion with potentially illuminating facts," said Gentries, who threatened to leave the room if presented with the number of Muslims who live peacefully in the United States, serve in the country's armed forces, or were victims themselves of the 9/11 attacks. "Period."

"If you don't believe me, wait until they put your wife in a burka," Gentries continued in reference to the face-and-body-covering worn by a small minority of Muslim women and banned in the universities of Turkey, Tunisia, and Syria. "Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

Over the past decade, Gentries said he has taken pains to avoid personal interactions or media that might have the potential to compromise his point of view. He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

Added Gentries, "That really put things back into perspective."

__________________"Fifth Element may be as dumb and artless as Johnny Mnemonic, but since a frenchman made it it must be ART!" -Pants
"...I think it's a low blow to draw attention to wendersfan's drunken state. " - dork
"Just because their victims are still alive doesn't mean they didn't commit murder." - grundle
"You concentrate on the sad wanna be hooliganism and let us worry about the actual soccer." - rocketsauce (final score: Columbus 2-Chicago 1)

Hey, I couldn't agree more that ignorance of Islam is at the root of the problem in the West. That's why I'm not going to be too sad if this mosque is built, as it will get a lot more people learning about Islam. I fully encourage everyone to read the Quran and Hadiths, and more importantly read up on the four major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and how they've interpreted Islam over the centuries. I think everyone should seek out liberal Islam, see what its theological underpinnings are, and see where it stands within mainstream Islam.

__________________"Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously."---G.K. Chesterton"When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains."--C.S. Lewis.Atlantica Vox on FB

Don't worry, we're killing many more Muslims on our Crusade than at any other time in history.

"Our Crusade"? You mean a series of hard fought victories at the beginning, followed by centuries of getting our asses kicked by Muslims, and then a complete clusterfuck where we set off to invade Egypt but end up attacking France?

Why do you hate America? If you supported the troops, you'd compare this to a successful war.

Really amazing how much attention this pastor is getting. Think he will cave in and not do it? Freedom of speech protection, yes, but I don't think this quran burning would accomplish anything positive.

GAINESVILLE, Fla.  The government turned up the pressure Tuesday on the head of a small Florida church who plans to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11, warning him that doing so could endanger U.S. troops and Americans everywhere.

But the Rev. Terry Jones insisted he would go ahead with his plans, despite criticism from the top U.S. general in Afghanistan, the White House and the State Department, as well as a host of religious leaders.

Jones, who is known for posting signs proclaiming that Islam is the devil's religion, says the Constitution gives him the right to publicly set fire to the book that Muslims consider the word of God.

Gen. David Petraeus warned Tuesday in an e-mail to The Associated Press that "images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan  and around the world  to inflame public opinion and incite violence." It was a rare example of a military commander taking a position on a domestic political matter.

Jones responded that he is also concerned but is "wondering, 'When do we stop?'" He refused to cancel the protest set for Saturday at his Dove World Outreach Center, a church that espouses an anti-Islam philosophy.

"How much do we back down? How many times do we back down?" Jones told the AP. "Instead of us backing down, maybe it's to time to stand up. Maybe it's time to send a message to radical Islam that we will not tolerate their behavior."

Still, Jones said he will pray about his decision.

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said the administration hoped Americans would stand up and condemn the church's plan.

"We think that these are provocative acts," Crowley said. "We would like to see more Americans stand up and say that this is inconsistent with our American values; in fact, these actions themselves are un-American."

Meeting Tuesday with religious leaders to discuss recent attacks on Muslims and mosques around the U.S., Attorney General Eric Holder called the planned burning both idiotic and dangerous, according to a Justice Department official. The official requested anonymity because the meeting was private.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton added her disapproval at a dinner Tuesday evening in observance of Iftar, the breaking of the daily fast during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

"I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths," Clinton said.

At the White House, spokesman Robert Gibbs echoed the concerns raised by Petraeus. "Any type of activity like that that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration," Gibbs told reporters.

Jones said he has received more than 100 death threats and has started wearing a .40-caliber pistol strapped to his hip.

The 58-year-old minister said the death threats started not long after he proclaimed in July that he would stage "International Burn-a-Quran Day." Supporters have been mailing copies of the Islamic holy text to his church to be incinerated in a bonfire.

Jones, who has about 50 followers, gained some local notoriety last year when he posted signs in front of his small church declaring "Islam is of the Devil." But his Quran-burning scheme attracted wider attention. It drew rebukes from Muslim nations and an avalanche of media interview requests just as an emotional debate was taking shape over the proposed Islamic center near the ground zero site of the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York.

The Quran, according to Jones, is "evil" because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.

"It's hard for people to believe, but we actually feel this is a message that we have been called to bring forth," he said last week. "And because of that, we do not feel like we can back down."

Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of God and insist it be treated with the utmost respect, along with any printed material containing its verses or the name of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad. Any intentional damage or show of disrespect to the Quran is deeply offensive.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. The church follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

At first glance, the church looks like a warehouse rather than a place of worship. A stone facade and a large lighted cross adorn the front of the beige steel building, which stands on 20 acres in Gainesville's leafy northern suburbs. Jones and his wife, Sylvia, live on the property and also use part of it to store furniture that they sell on eBay.

A broad coalition of religious leaders from evangelical, Roman Catholic, Jewish and Muslim organizations met in Washington on Tuesday and condemned the plan to burn the Quran as a violation of American values.

"This is not the America that we all have grown to love and care about," said Rabbi Steve Gutow of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs. "We have to stand up for our Muslim brothers and sisters and say, "This is not OK.'"

FBI agents have visited with Jones to discuss concern for his safety. Multiple Facebook pages with thousands of members have popped up hailing him as a hero or blasting him as a dangerous pariah.

The world's leading Sunni Muslim institution of learning, Al-Azhar University in Egypt, accused the church of stirring up hate and discrimination, and called on other American churches speak out against it.

Last month, Indonesian Muslims demonstrated outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, threatening violence if Jones goes through with it.

In this progressive Florida city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus, the lanky preacher with the bushy white mustache is mostly seen as a fringe character who doesn't deserve special attention.

At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in Gainesville have mobilized to plan inclusive events  some will read from the Quran at their own weekend services  to counter what Jones is doing. A student group is organizing a protest across the street from the church on Sept. 11.

Gainesville's new mayor, Craig Lowe, who during his campaign became the target of a Jones-led protest because he is openly gay, has declared Sept. 11 Interfaith Solidarity Day in the city.

Jones dismisses the response of the other churches as "cowardly." He said even if they think burning Qurans is extreme, Christian ministers should be standing with him in denouncing the principles of Islam.

All the attention has caused other problems for Jones, too. He believes it's the reason his mortgage lender has demanded full payment of the $140,000 still owed on the church property. He's seeking donations to cover it, but recently listed the property for sale with plans to eventually move the church away from Gainesville.

The fire department has denied Jones a required burn permit for Sept. 11, but he said lawyers have told him his right to burn Qurans is protected by the First Amendment, with or without the city's permission.

The same would hold true, he said, if Muslims wanted to burn Bibles in the front yard of a mosque.

It's going to be interesting to hear some of our members and their views on this subject - especially those who so staunchly stood up for the rights to build the Mosque. One can only hope they are consistent in their views.