Always the scriptures must be taken in whole context. Paul (if he wrote Hebrews) is not saying that we are saved by works. He is saying that we participate as partners with God in working out our own salvation. This is a big part of what sonship is all about. We cannot take the exercise of our wills Today out of the equation no matter what we believe God does and sees over the whole enchilada. What are we to do? Ignore every injunction in the New Testament- every warning? This would certainly be foolish. "Labor diligently to enter into his rest", "Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart". Hebrews alone has many exhortations and warnings, Virtually every speaker in the Old Testament and New includes these warnings and consequences of ignoring them.

If we cannot trust the Word in relation to these things, what business do we have trusting the Word that we are saved by "grace through faith". None, actually.

The attempt to take all the weight off of one side of the balance simply causes seekers to be thrown up into the air. Our choices, and learning to exercise our will in union with his, cannot be taken out of the paradigm. It is discipleship. We trust and believe and obey- and part of our trusting is that he is calling forth our efforts(for it is God who is in you to will and to work of his good pleasure) and his grace is filling them(strengthened with might in our inner man by the Holy Spirit). In the exercise of walking it out we begin to grow in discernment as to whether we are "working in religious flesh and self-effort" or if "the Lord is working with us, confirming our works." But I am very sure this principle applies, As we reap we sow. If we do not press into the Lord with our wills, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, we will not know the difference between when we are "resting" and just "lazy"- because our senses will not be exercised to know the difference.

Jesus, who gave forth more warnings than anyone against complacency and the result of it says "Watch, and pray that you might not enter into temptation, for the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak".

I think however that the warnings are not in terms of being "tossed out as a bastard child". I think it concerns sonship, the rewards of the overcomers, the right to participate in the inheritance,

Heb 3:13-19 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, (15) while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." (16) For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? (17) And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? (18) And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? (19) So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

They were brought out, but unable to enter. The wilderness lies in between living in Adam (Egypt)and living in the inheritance of Christ(promise).

"To every one who believes he gave the right to become sons of God" (John 1)

"Every son while he is still a child, is no different than a slave and must be kept under tutors until the appointed time" (Gal 4)

If we are immature we have the adoption rights but we cannot work within the house because Dad don't give little ones the keys to the major equipment.Stewardship is about growing incrementally into the inheritance. To the one who is faithful over little, more shall be given.

If we as disciples can become as focused on how to enter the inheritance and walk as mature sons Today, Now- as we are on the fine lines of the doctrines of the faith, wow. Who knows what might break forth?

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

I do think that is it is possible to so grieve the Holy Spirit that one can be required to enter through the fire into that which was meant to be entered, "by grace through faith". I also believe that there are certain things one can disqualify ones self for both now and in the age to come, by disobedience and neglect.

"If we cannot trust the Word in relation to these things, what business do we have trusting the Word that we are saved by "grace through faith". None, actually."

To be clear, this isn't my stance. IMO, trusting the Word and understanding the Word and rightly dividing it can be different "operations" - again IMO, both very important, but can be hard to do. That's what I'm working on. I also did say I believe in obedience.

However, I still think there are some vital questions to be answered with this, at least to my own mind and spirit. Maybe it's only "doctrinally" important to me, and if so, I'll continue to search it out.

Part of my perspective is having rubbed shoulders with thousands of "church people" through the years, with so many of them teaching others that if they're not careful they'll "lose your salvation and go to hell". Perhaps it's a little more of a sensitive subject for me. I grew up in that environment, it was my formative years - "you better hang on, one lie will send you to an eternity of hell, screaming, burning, no hope, the skin and flesh melting off your bones. Have you considered the cost, if your soul should be lost?...mercy doors are open now, you may lose your last chance and split hell wide open..." So maybe I notice (and struggle) with the "little" seemingly unimportant doctrine of it more than some others.

So, with that background, sure there are warnings, and I didn't and don't say we should ignore them. I am questioning though what those warnings are actually about, especially for believers, those who have been spiritually reborn and SEALED with the Holy Spirit. For instance, was Jesus talking to those of the nations saved by grace of His shed blood after the cross, or about something else having to do with the kingdom in that age? And was Paul and the other NT writers really saying that a person could be saved/born again/spiritually born from above actually be sealed with the Holy Spirit but then that seal be broken? If so, then what's the point of the seal?

All of that could be correct. I'm saying what I believe, not what I know 100% with no chance of being wrong about any of it. But I still question, that if Jesus' words are taken into account as to their context, and if Paul's et al are taken into account of whole context of other scriptures, then these quotes of yours that I pull out seem to "make more sense" to me rather than "being cast out", or "losing one's salvation (that was given by grace)".

"If we are immature we have the adoption rights but we cannot work within the house because Dad don't give little ones the keys to the major equipment.Stewardship is about growing incrementally into the inheritance. To the one who is faithful over little, more shall be given.

To the one who is faithful over little, more shall be given.

I think however that the warnings are not in terms of being "tossed out as a bastard child". I think it concerns sonship, the rewards of the overcomers, the right to participate in the inheritance" [inheritance of 'what'?]

It's the question I had in the first place; maybe this is about rewards, position of service, even relationship/intimacy (clear conscience); the question of "what then does 'sonship' exactly mean, rather than "they've lost their salvation" as so many teach. I don't know the answers to ALL of this. But the bottom line for me is, right now, today, I don't see how we could be saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, yet after that the relationship be so tenuous that we could lose it at any second through our own lack of proper works.

Well, more digging for me personally. I said this early in this post; "So maybe I notice (and struggle) with the "little" seemingly unimportant doctrine of it more than some others." I'm also reminded of my sister, who thinks she can't "be a Christian" because she may think a bad thought, or not be able to quit smoking, or not feel like "going to church", etc. So she lives in defeat, depression, with a sense of foreboding that she's doomed for an eternity in hell. I'm not about to tell her the intricacies of this topic isn't important. She's in misery because she doesn't understand it and can't accept God's grace and love. I've tried over and over to tell her, but her formative years have indeed formed her.

Hi Jabcat I apologize if it appeared that I was speaking to you personally in my little exhortation there, I was speaking to the question in general without meaning to be critical of you, or insinuate you personally are splitting hairs over doctrine. I am not saying the doctrine of grace is unimportant either. I am saying that if Christians think that accessing grace involves no reciprocal- call it what you will, zeal(zeal for thine house consumes me), works(faith without works is dead)- then whatever relief they are seeking from oppressions like that of your sisters will be hard to find. It is the truth that sets us free, in all of its fulness and of course ministered in love. If I fail to do that it doesnt matter what I believe. But the thread is, "So what happens to this man"- and my response was directed to that man, who grew lax on his watch and fell into shipwreck- not to a little one being oppressed by a spirit of condemnation.

Oh it's OK John, and sorry on my end if I came back sounding too harsh. This is probably a more sensitive issue for me, based on what I shared. Some without the background may just sort of skim right over it without any question. For me, there's just much involved. Blessings, James.

Jesus is the pioneer and the perfecter of our faith. Today, my main focus is not on me. My main focus is on Christ. I see the hand of sanctification moving through my life, not because of me but despite of me. My best efforts are like filthy rags. This maturation process has continued and ploded through my mistakes, sins, and character defects. I look back and know my best efforts should have landed me in prison or the grave. My best efforts imprisoned me to addiction and misery. It wasn't until my flesh was broken over the Law...that I truly began to grow. It wasn't until I knew that I knew that I would never be good enough to earn salvation...that I gave up trying to be good enough. It was through that breaking process, I realized where my eyes should be focused...and that is on the Cross.

So does that mean God gives us a lil nudge and a wink wink when we sin? Does it mean my sin doesn't grieve me? Does it mean I don't try to avoid setting idols up in my heart? The answer is no to all the above. I am grieved when I sin, my heart breaks. But, not because I am trying to earn something, but because I am trying to be something...like Jesus Christ. My desire is to be like my Savior in every way. My desire is to continually grow. Do I look at my motives, my actions, my reactions? Absolutely. Because I want those to be like my Saviors as well. But, I know this...that even when I stumble and fall flat on my face that God still loves me, is still in control, and I trust him to remove it all from me. HE is the perfector of my faith...not me.

It's the question I had in the first place; maybe this is about rewards, position of service, even relationship/intimacy (clear conscience); the question of "what then does 'sonship' exactly mean, rather than "they've lost their salvation" as so many teach. I don't know the answers to ALL of this. But the bottom line for me is, right now, today, I don't see how we could be saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, yet after that the relationship be so tenuous that we could lose it at any second through our own lack of proper works.

" Not of ourselves in case any should boast.I have been crucified with Christ, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO LIVES BUT CHRIST WHO LIVES IN ME."

We are called sons of God because of what Christ has done.Would you get rid of a son for some mistake he has made?Our Father loves us more than our mortal dad's are capable of attempting. So He has patience to train us and discipline us for the coming ages. No wonder Paul was excited about what lies ahead for us all, but especially for those who believe that Christ was sufficient in every detail.

GodIsLove

He believed in God. He was a Christian Universalist. Over the years, he was a speaker in a local congregation of believers. He was a gifted teacher, helping lead others to belief upon Jesus as Savior.

Over time he began to develop beliefs that denied some of the essentials of the faith; the virgin birth, the necessity of the blood of Jesus to save. He stopped praying, stopped reading His Bible, and eventually stated he no longer believed in God. He began to mock Christians, insult them, make crude statements and disparaging comments about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In short, he has become a persecutor of the brethren and a blasphemer.

What do you make of this man? How do you feel about a situation such as this? Does it affect your own faith one way or another? What does God think of this man? How does He view him? How does He deal with him, and how will He deal with him?

There is no one who has sinned so sorely as to be beyond the redeeming blood of Jesus. Their are men and women of all persuasions who are seduced by the world, the flesh, and the devil- and fall, yet the good shepherd leaves the 99 righteous and goes to rescue that lamb who has gone astray.

IMO, isn't that like saying, "What if the banana was an orange?"Just kidding. Yes, we will be divided up into the sheep and the goats, the sheep being those that are saved before they earthly die, and the goats being those that are saved after they die. A person that actually has the hioly spirit of God cannotabandon the faith. The person may have thought he was saved at one time but was deluded. Tht's why Paul says those that stay true to the faith "until the end" - because that's the only way one can truly know if another is saved during their lifetime.

In the end, that's why our belief is called ULTIMATE reconciliation. Not that it's the best (Ultimate defined as best)reconciliation but that ultimately (eventually)all will be dragged to and saved by the shed blood of Jesus.

Logged

"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

The correction that is ordained for goats is crafted to turn them into sheep.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! (Rom 11:32-33)

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:9-11)

One day this man, who is convinced that he is truly a self-made man because he doesn't need that silly crutch known as god or faith sees a little old lady walking down the street. He notices her not because she is little or old, but because she has a smile which seems to be twice as big as she is. He watches as she meets a friend, who is also smiling, and when they met, both their smiles get bigger and their faces light up.

"Stupid old biddies" thinks the man to himself. Their smiles simply prove they have no idea what reality is; they should be put in a home for sillies". Yet he continues to watch them.

The next day he sees her and her friend again. He follows them a little and watches them go into a little coffee shop where they talk and laugh. "If they knew how hard it really was out here, they wouldn't even leave their homes let alone smile all the time ... stupid biddies." Yet he continues to watch them.

This goes on for a long time, and the man finds that against all his best intentions, he starts to look forward to seeing the ladies. He even makes sure he plans his lunch breaks so he can sit in the same coffee shop and just listen to their quiet, gentle, laughter.

One day he sees the lady walk down the street and she walks into the coffee shop without her friend. The strangest feeling comes over him. He finds he somehow misses this other lady. He never knew her name and had no relationship with her, yet she wasn't here, and somehow that just didn't seem right. He hesitates for a bit but finally he walks over to the lady and asks if he could join her. She graciously says yes. "I'm sorry mam but I need to know, is your friend not coming today, is she not well?" The lady's smile leaves momentarily, "I'm afraid she died last night." Stunned into silence the man feels the sting of tears welling up. "I am so sorry is all that comes out" for he knows if he says any more, he will start weeping. He realizes he misses her.

"She was very fond of you," says the little old lady, to the self-made man. She used to look forward to your joining us for lunch. She was a little worried about how much salt you put on your french fries though, but, she said at least you didn't smother them with ketchup so it was a fair trade off." The man couldn't say a word. The little old lady got up and put her hand on the man's hand. "God bless you son," was all she said, and she left.

He never saw her again, but he knew that his heart had melted. He knew that even though he thought he was in charge, a little old lady, whose name he never knew, had been sent by God to show him that God's love for him wasn't depended on his love for God. He wept more, prayed more, and put his hand in God's because he realized there is no such thing as a self-made man, and no such person as someone not loved by God.