I think you are getting yourself a little bit confused.com.You now have 3 morning charts, 2 or 3 evening charts and a brand new Sunrise Chart?

How i came to the 05.05am chart.

I first arrived at this time 05.05am from a tweet that peter novak posted on Facebook. The tweet was12.05 central time. When i looked at the same tweet, it gave a time of 08.05am, BST. I therefore deducted that the tweet would have been posted from Syria, local time which is -3 BST. I cast the chart for that time, 05.05am, Syria. And that is the chart that i have.

THE VIDEO IS THE EARLIEST EVIDENCE TO DATE

The evidence to back up that chart is the video, which is in actual fact the earliest evidence that i could find on the internet of any sort of 'declaration'. The video clearly shows people celebrating, firing machine guns into the air and much ado, and a root in' and a tooting' as they are. The translated title of the video is "Tenderness | | joy that was such bliss breakfast at the roundabout on the occasion of the Declaration of the Islamic Caliphate 29-6" - there's a couple of clues in the title.

The next earliest reference i found was on RT's liveblog - June 29
"10:12 GMT: ISIS jihadists have declared the captured territories from Iraq's Diyala province to Syria's Aleppo a new Islamic State - a ‘caliphate.' They removed 'Iraq and the Levant' from their name and urged other radical Sunni groups to pledge their allegiance". Although it's a few hours later (the feed on RT) is at 10:12GMT - that would put local time at 13:12pm and the light in the video would look much different at that time of day. We can now rule out the later PM charts, as RT published the news at 10:12am - GMT. I've worked in news rooms and normally many different levels of approval are required before anything can be published, hence the time of the RT publication.

The video was shot in the morning and of that i am completely 100% certain. I understand how that particular quality of light looks on film - I've been a professional photographer for nearly 20 years. The title of the video also indicates that it was a declaration or an announcement (or as close as we are going to get one) for a new Caliphate. If you look at the video, you'll notice that the Sun has not yet risen above the horizon - it's the same for the 05.05am chart - the Sun is 2º17' away from the ascendent. About the same i would say, that the Sun is away from the horizon in that footage.

The 02:05GMT on that chart is Universal time, NOT BST. - But the time is irrelevant anyway and that is why it's all a bit confused.com - see below.

A Sunrise Chart gives an ASC and Sun of 7ºCancer17'. The 05.05am Chart is not a Sunrise chart, it is based on a) The first tweet, the video evidence and RT blog (the first to MSM to publish anything) and b) the approximation of the Sun's position according to my own photographic, investigative and astrological reckoning.

Besides, looking at the 05:05am chart, it seems to be an entirely plausible one for what i know so far of this Caliphate. Jupiter and the Moon in 2nd is surely descriptive of the reported $2BILLION in assets that this outfit has.

But in fact, the actual time is irrelevant, whether it is -2,-3, BST or GMT. The video shows the first declaration of the Islamic Caliphate and for the reasons i've been giving, the 05.05am chart reflects that, i.e the Sun is not yet above the horizon, meaning that this chart is for the approximate time that the video was shot. It important to remember, that this is not a sunrise chart.

Since I opened this thread its been a fast moving discussion and many different ideas have been presented here in the light of new factual information appearing.

I think your desire to present the facts as crystal clear here is understandable but it nevertheless distorts the genuine complexity of this issue. Contrary to just accepting your stance I have tried to present a variety of perspectives here not just yours. I guess for anyone seeking a straightforward answer and solution here that will seem frustrating. I share that frustration myself. I dont think any topic has been so elusive since I became the mundane moderator here. Maybe its a reflection of so many planets being retrograde at the time this event commenced!

The charts that have been presented for consideration by astrologers can be summarised as follows:

a) Two possible times for the online video release of the statement by ISIS declaring the Caliphate provided by Pieter Van Ostaeyen. I displayed a chart based on a 5PM GMT time based on a reply from my source Pieter Van Ostaeyen. Pieter didn't assist matters much in in terms of providing total clarity since he kept insisting the time was 5:00PM GMT +1 while his location of Belgium is currently GMT+2. So was he assuming GMT was just 1 hour behind his time in error? This would imply a time of 6:00PM in Belgium which is actually 4PM GMT or did he work on the basis of Central European Time (ignoring Daylight saving time) in which case this would give us a time of 5GMT? This is where the confusion arose about timing the video release. I plan to have one more go at clarifying this matter with Pieter Van Ostaeyen.

It appears the ISIS video releases started at noon (from Belgium). However, ISIS showed 3 videos that afternoon The first two were followed with a gap of about two hours before the 3rd video went out. This last video was the one to proclaim the formation of the Caliphate in a formal statement.

I think you have tended to ignore this evidence or view it as irrelevant. I simply disagree and think in many ways the moment of the video release declaring the Caliphate is when the world really noticed the creation of a Caliphate. So regardless of when the first tweet was sent I still think this time is of astrological significance. However, its been frustrating that no precise time has so far been identified for this.

Still,, even if others do not share my view on the importance of the online statement announcing the Caliphate I still think your position on the tweet time looks dubious to me.

b) Times for tweets. I dont mean to give offence Nathan but I think you may have got a bit muddled on the basic time zone differentials which means the time you have been using for your tweet seems incorrect to me.

Nathan wrote:

Quote:

I first arrived at this time 05.05am from a tweet that peter novak posted on Facebook. The tweet was12.05 central time. When i looked at the same tweet, it gave a time of 08.05am, BST. I therefore deducted that the tweet would have been posted from Syria, local time which is -3 BST. I cast the chart for that time, 05.05am, Syria. And that is the chart that i have.

There appears to be a consensus that Twitter records times of messages in the local time of the receiver.

Thanks to a reply to me on Facebook from Peter Novak we both now finally know Peter Novak is based in the USA, CDT zone. I had been speculating before as his home state is in two time zones!

Peter's tweet is time stamped 12:05AM. We can calculate the local time in Syria from this tweet. CDT is 5 hours behind GMT at present. Syria is currently GMT+3 or 3 hours ahead of GMT. So logically the time of his tweet was 08:05AM in Syria. Not 5:05AM.

Your tweet based in the United Kingdom is for 08:05 (BST). BST=British Summer time which is GMT+1. With daylight saving local time in Syria is 2 hours ahead of BST ie GMT+3. So based on your tweet the actual time in Syria was 10:05AM. Not 05:05AM

I think you have made the mistake of subtracting the time differential between Syria and GMT rather than adding this time. To put it simply we add time as we travel west.

So is Peter's tweet right or yours? On Social media there seems to be a plurality of tweet times out there.

Either way converting the local time of either Peter Novak's or your tweet fails to give a local time of 05:05AM local time in Syria.

If I was going to rely on a tweet time I would tend to use Peter Novak's 08:05AM as it is actually earlier than your actual time converted to Syria (or its the same time but yours has got jumbled by Twitter).

This weakens your notion that that your tweet coincides with the dawn celebrations. As I see it we no longer have a tweet to suppotrt this proposed chart for 05:05AM.

I fully accept the You Tube video evidence from early AM on the 29th strongly supports your contention of a local celebration of a Caliphate announcement around dawn on Sunday 29th. I dont think anyone here is disputing that.

However, I feel in your desire to strengthen your position you have conflated your proposed tweet time and the video evidence together. The facts presented to date (as I see it) just dont uphold that view. We need to separate out these two issues.

c) Sunrise chart. I suggested this based on acceptance of the video evidence (excluding tweets). Due to a lack of any conclusive time I thought a sunrise chart is an acceptable approximation. Sunrise of course has a symbolic significance and many astrologers use a sunrise chart in the absence of a precise time.

But the video section you have quoted mentions 'breakfast'. I had assumed Ramadan started on sunset of the 28th with the Moon sighting. Since Ramadan is a fast during daylight hours that certainly suggests the gathering/celebration must have occurred before sunrise but just when is not clear.

Since I dont accept your proposed 5:05AM tweet time as valid I cannot work with that. This therefore makes the whole acceptance of a dawn chart problematic since it is no longer tied to any evidence of a tweet around that time.

Sure a lot of ISIS guys were celebrating the declaration of a Caliphate in Ar-Raqqah. You could certainly take that as a de facto declaration of the Caliphate.

Generally, though astrologers rely on a more public pronouncement to time a chart. Something declared to the world. I am not sure the dawn gathering (whenever it was) really fits that in a literal way. I imagine lots of red guards were celebrating after they conquered Beijing and the Communists defeated the Nationalists. However, all astrologers that use a 1949 chart for China use Mao's speech proclaming the creation of the People's Republic of China over the radio.

To me the event that best fits that kind of clear unequivocal statement to the world is the extensive ISIS video statement declaring the Caliphate. However, that is just my take on this. Others may disagree about this and they are welcome to do so.

In summary, I think we may end up with 3 possible events to characterize the creation of the Caliphate from which we can derive charts.

1 The online release of the ISIS video proclaiming the Caliphate in an extensive statement. I am still seeking to pin down a time for this between two possibilities that the information provided by Pieter Van Ostaeyen seems to give.

2 The use of the earliest tweet record we have. At present that appears to be that from Peter Novak timed for 12:05AM CDT or 08:05AM Syria.

My view is that the Syria time of 5:05AM you have been insisting on seems to be an error due to your miscalculation of the time zone differential between your location in the UK and Syria.

Apart from the timing issue my other concern about using these tweets is that from their wording its not really clear these represent a full proclamation of a Caliphate or a promo for the release of the video statement by ISIS later in the day.

3 The You Tube videos recording the gathering of ISIS fighters in Ar-Raqqah celebrating the Caliphate before sunrise on Sunday 29th. This certainly represents the earliest time we have. However, its not clear precisely when it was. Moreover, I am not totally convinced this really counts as a public proclamation of the Caliphate to the wider world. Still, I suppose this could be taken as a de facto starting point for the Caliphate on the ground.

Mark_________________‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly

A few weeks back I attended "Lilly Day" at St Mary's church in Walton-on-Thames, where William Lilly was a church warden and where he is buried. Geoffrey Cornelius gave the lecture, but I had learned that he had a timing for the founding of Islamic State and so approached him after his talk to ask him about it.

Geoffrey said it was clear from the announcement of the founding of the Islamic State that its founding was to coincide with the start of Ramadan at Ar-Raqqah in Syria. Ar-Ruqqah is at the "cross-roads" between Iraq and Syria and was an important capital in the early Islamic period, so there are good historic reasons why the Islamic State should choose this city as the seat of its foundation - as well as the practical consideration that Islamic State occupies this city.

The start of Ramadan (like any new month in the Islamic calendar) is indicated by the first sighting of the new Moon, which was as the Sun set on Saturday 28th of June. The new Moon would not have been visible until the Sun was about 6 degrees below the horizon, so this gives the time for setting the chart, which is about 17:05 UTC (or GMT in old currency). It should be explained that the Pieter van Ostaeyen chart which Mark gave when he started this thread is for Sunday 29th of June, which was the first day of Ramadan. But this was not the start of Ramadan, as explained above.

Here is the chart:

As can be seen, this is a much more potent chart than that for the Pieter van Ostaeyen timing, a day later. The Moon, that symbol of the Muslim faith, is still in Cancer in this chart, the sign it rules, and applying to an exalted Jupiter, rather in Leo and separating from Jupiter.

The crescent Moon and star on Islamic flags has been associated with Mohammed the Prophet being born at the time of a solar eclipse, but as a symbol it actually pre-dates Islam by many centuries and did not become associated with Islam until the 14th century. Prior to that, Islamic flags (such as they were) tended to be monocolour black, or green - and in that sense Islamic State have looked back to the early days of Islam with their black flag. But it is worth noting that the crescent Moon is also a feature of the start of the new month and so the Moon in this chart will have particular resonance with Islam.

With regard to the expansionist ambitions of Islamic State, Sahl (On Elections) says that, “If you want to…. take a land… let Jupiter be in aspect with (Saturn) from a cardinal point, or trine (to Saturn), and make Mars fall from them both. Let the Moon be at the beginning of the month in friendly aspect to Saturn, increasing its computation and in aspect with Jupiter….” Well, I don’t suppose I need to add any comment to that with regards to this chart! But I should say that this quote from Sahl (a Jewish astrologer, writing in the 9th century, whose work would appear to have been the model for Ramesey’s comprehensive work on electional astrology written in the 17th century) is from his discussion of the forth house and is in the context of wanting lands gained to prosper and be productive when under the new owner’s control. This is not simply an indicator of land acquisition as an end of itself and the product of war. Indeed, in this quote, Mars -that agent of war - is deliberately being pushed out of the picture to promote peace and stability.

And the Mars in this chart, which is ‘falling’ from a square to the Moon, is in its detriment in Libra and in a cadent house, so quite weak here. This might seem odd for an organization wishing to secure its own military strength, but as Sahl says (again, in his book On Elections when discussing the 7th house), if you want to ‘spoil the fighting’ then what you want is a weak Mars. A strong Mars promotes war and it would seem that the ambitions of the new Caliphate is to over-run the territory they wish to conquer by way of a ‘blitzkrieg’ rather than prolonged confrontation. ‘War’ per se is not what they want. Mars is also in the 9th house, so this is the Mars of ‘foreigners’, and indeed the West (surely the foreigners here), after their recent incursions into the Middle East and other Islamic states, have lost any appetite for further direct military engagement against Islamic fundamentalist.

We should also note Pluto, that planet of revolution, upheaval and overthrow, sits in pride-of-place on the ascendant. The disruptive influence of Pluto’s ingress into Capricorn is already a significant factor in world affairs and this chart puts Pluto right at the heart of the meaning and purpose of Islamic State. Too, the ascendant is in a cardinal sign, on the equinoctal axis, more indicators of change as an element of Islamic State creed.

Saturn, ruler of the ascendant, is not particularly strong in Scorpio, but it is in a fixed sign and angular and it is not detrimented, so giving Islamic State the prospect of surviving. The fact that Saturn is retrograde could indicate a return to older values and identities - as pointed up by the fact that Saturn is in the 10th house.

In conclusion, this is but a quick look at a chart which - which I hope I have indicated - seems to give some interesting insights into the new Islamic State and is worthy of further study. In particular, this is not the chart of an entity bent on war. Revolution, change, a return to older values, yes - but not war for its own sake.

Another chart to add to the pot! Symbolically, one can certainly use the start of Ramadan. The other charts displayed here were an attempt to capture the day of the actual public announcement which seems to have been made the following day.

Geoffrey wrote:

Quote:

The crescent Moon and star on Islamic flags has been associated with Mohammed the Prophet being born at the time of a solar eclipse, but as a symbol it actually pre-dates Islam by many centuries and did not become associated with Islam until the 14th century. Prior to that, Islamic flags (such as they were) tended to be monocolour black, or green - and in that sense Islamic State have looked back to the early days of Islam with their black flag. But it is worth noting that the crescent Moon is also a feature of the start of the new month and so the Moon in this chart will have particular resonance with Islam.

Yes its an interesting issue of when Muslims started to use the crescent Moon and star. One theory suggests that the symbolism of the crescent Moon and star derives from Christian Byzantium. However, there are numerous other explanations to identify the origin of these symbols in Islam:

The Venus connection is stengthened by the fact that the Islamic calendar starts on a Friday- the day of prayer for Muslims. This day has a planetary day ruler of Venus. Saturday is the sabbath of Judaism and comes under the planetary day ruler of Saturn while the Christian sabbath is ruled by the Sun.

There seems to be numerous factors favouring the traditional link between Venus and Islam. According to Steven Birchfield:

Quote:

...there are specific reasons also why Venus was the planet ruling Islam: It was the Dawr ruler (an important chronocrator in mundane astrology) and ruler of the Ascendant of the chart indicating the rise of Islam, the chart of the conjunction indicating shift of the triplicity - Cf The Astrological History of Masha'allah by David Pingree and E.S. Kennedy

Abu Ma'shar set of the planetary associations of the religions: :

Quote:

We say that, since Jupiter is by nature an indicator of faith, and the differences of faiths in periods, religions and dynasties are from its mixture... If it (Jupiter) is mixed with Saturn, it indicates that the faith of the people of that religion is Judaism, which is similar to the essence of Saturn, since the <other> planets apply to it, and it does not apply to any planet among them. Similarly, the people of all other faiths confess Judaism, but it does not confess them (their faiths). Most of them will do what is similar to this religion or the like. If the mixer with it is Mars, it indicates the worship of fire and the faith of Mazdaism. If the mixer with it is the Sun, it indicates the worship of the planets, idols, and the marvellous. If the mixer with it is Venus, it indicates revealed religion, and monotheism, like Islam and the like. If the mixture with it is Mercury, it indicates Christianity, and every faith containing antipathy, doubt, and trouble. If the mixer with it is the Moon, it indicates doubts, confusion, ta’fîl, apostasy, and distrust in the faith, and what is because of the quick change of the Moon and its movement, and because of its short stay in each of the signs.
Abu Ma'shar - The Book of Religions and Dynasties: On the Great Conjunctions - Edited and translated by Charles Burnett and Keiji Yamamoto and published by Brill 2000

Clearly, Islamic astrologers like Abu Mashar would not want their religion associated with the Moon! Still, we have the paradox that modern Islamic states have adopted the cresent Moon and star as their symbol. No doubt a reflection of the importance of the lunar calendar in Islam.

Mark_________________‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly

On June 29, 2014, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) released an audio message...

The message, which is 34:02 in duration, was first released in Arabic on the
Twitter page of ISIS's media company Al-I'tisam. ISIS also released English,
German, Russian, and French translations of the message, produced by its
subsidiary media company, Al-Hayat.

and videos released prior to the announcement like “The End of Sykes Picot” or "The Breaking of the Borders"

leads to some widely divergent times.

I suggest Pieter van Ostaeyen knows how to tell time. If not necessarily using the word 'exact' the same way an astrologer would.

I tried searching twitter website on Jul 1 which I'd never used before. I assumed correctly it was giving local time for the location of the computer. I don't think I can find what I found then... but I found a search tool since we need it now(too many tweets since)

I would be interested to read your revised views on the various ISIS/ISIL charts.

Maybe the early morning chart, the chart that you suggested was fervently, yet apparently foolishly advocated, does in fact have relevance?

With a slight adjustment to the local time of 20 or 30 mins - (try 05:45 local time) - as stated in previous posts - has a particular accuracy after all?

That would put Algol in the 11th with both Jupiter and the Moon making an exact sextile to it from the 1st - Jupiter is L10, the Moon L1. That may very well look like an organisation known to the world for public beheadings, to some but of course, not everyone.

Interestingly, the name Algol comes from the term used by the arab astrologers who called the star Ras al-Ghul - which means 'Head of the Demon'. The Chinese called the star Tseih She, literally 'Piled Up Corpses'.It symbolises extreme violence, sudden death, decapitation and hanging. Algol is also the primitive, sexual female energy and is passionate, intense and is hysteria in the purest sense of the word. Traditionally, Venus rules Islam.

With the Sun just rising in the 12th and making an exact trine to Neptune in the 9th, suggests the word 'Nihilism', and who could possibly deny that there is absolutely no doubt that this death cult is nothing other than that? It's a remorseless and unrelenting movement of destruction - and i'm not even going to mention Pluto on the DSC.

Judging ISIL's actions by proper Islamic tradition has taken many people off the real track here - Neptune in the 9th - the simple fact of the matter is that these people are not in the slightest way 'religious' as has been described by many on this particular thread.

Many thanks, and i look forward to your reply._________________Verum e

I must confess I found this thread /topic very frustrating due to the confusing and conflicting information it brought up. I couldn't face this thread for quite some time.

But the idea of Geoffrey Cornelius that this Caliphate coincides with the beginning of Ramadan seems a pragmatic way forward. There is no doubt the announcement and the beginning of Ramadan were connected in the minds of ISIS. The actual chart is very interesting. I will be using it to track the fortunes of ISIS here on the forum by opening a new thread.

Mark_________________‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly

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