For many years, I have been regularly asked in emails, letters and phone
calls about reproductions of labels, not just whether the labels I sell
are "authentic and genuine" which, of course, they are! But, I
am constantly asked questions like:

"Can you tell me if it is legal to reproduce
a fruit crate label to use commercially?"
"I am interested in reproducing fruit labels and want to know whom
to contact for permission"
"I would like to get scans of some of labels so I can make more, how
do I do that?"
"How do I find out what labels are copyrighted, and which ones are
not?"
"Can I make money reproducing labels, and is there a problem with that?"
"Can I be sued for reproducing these images, and if so what will it
cost?"
"I took some images off your website for t-shirts, is that ok?"

First of all, these are actually very complicated questions to respond
to, and every answer is different, which is why I have prepared this page.
Secondly, I am very familiar with the subject, and have prepared my own
comprehensive licensing contracts which I have used to negotiate with companies
who license images for household items. But, I am NOT a Copyright Attorney
nor Intellectual Properties Specialist -- Those guys get paid $300.00 per
hour to deal with these issues in courts of law. However, I have learned
enough over the years to tell "most people" the basics, anything
after that, you'll have to hire one of those expensive attorneys to inform
you and protect you from posible legal actions. I hereby declare that I
am simply sharing my observations and what I have learned over the years
dealing in label art, I make no claims to be making an legal representations
here and suggest if you have any questions about anything I say here, get
more advice from an Intellectual Property or Copyright attorney, or at least
get some books at the library and make som cals to get more information.

The following concepts are for people who are considering making other
than exact replicas of labels on paper. ALL COLLECTORS AND DEALERS FROWN
ANGRILY on anyone who reproduces labels in color on paper in the same size
as the original. That is because hundreds of thousands of dollars a year
are spent inside the label hobby for originals. So, no one does it because
everyone would shun the copies for damaging the hobby. Besides, there are
so many thousands of authentic labels available for so little money, there
is no market in reproducing them. But, no matter what form of reproduction
you have in mind, the following is what I have learned. I AM NOT TALKING
ABOUT SELLING REAL LABELS, I AM TALKING ABOUT "REPRODUCING LABEL IMAGES."

The most commonly asked question is "CAN I
MAKE MONEY AT THIS?" And after 25 years of watching other people
try to make money with reproductions of ANY TYPE of label images, and doing
it myself, I can tell you truly that ALMOST EVERY
ONE I HAVE SEEN TRY TO MAKE MONEY WITH LABEL IMAGE REPRODUCTIONS HAS FAILED
OVER TIME. HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE TRIED IN MYRIAD WAYS AND ALL OF THEM
RAN INTO A DEAD END, BECAUSE MOST OF THEIR VENTURES WERE REALTIVLY SHORT-LIVED.
SOME WERE SUED, OR GOT BORED OR TIRED AND STOPPED, OR LOST A LOT OF MONEY
TRYING, BECAUSE ALTHOUGH MOST OF THESE PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS WAS A NEW AND
EXCITING IDEA, THE PUBLIC IS SIMPLY NOT INTERESTED ENOUGH IN THEM FOR ANYONE
TO HAVE MADE SUBSTANTIAL PROFITS OVER THE LONG TERM. ALSO, BECAUSE THE COSTS
OF OBTAINING ORIGINALS, OR LICENSING FROM OTHER PEOPLE, MANAGING ALL THE
SCANS OR FILMS, PRINTING COSTS, ADVERTISING MATERIALS, BOOKEEPING, INVENTORY
MANAGEMENT, MANUFACTURING, PACKAGING, SERVICING OF DEALER STOCKS, DISTRIBUTION,
RETURNS OF DAMAGED GOODS, AND LIABILITY COVERAGE(S) IS TOO HIGH AND TOO
DAUNTING, COMPARED TO THE SMALL PROFITS HISTORICALLY RELAIZED BY FRUIT LABEL
REPRODUCTIONS IN THE "GIFT ITEM" MARKETPLACE. ON TOP OF THIS,
ONCE YOU PUT AN IMAGE OUT IN THE MARKETPLACE ON A PARTICULAR ITEM, SOMEONE
ELSE MAY TRY TO DO THE SAME (OR ALREADY HAS) , USING THE SAME IMAGE ON A
SIMILAR PRODUCT AND YOU'LL NEED TO THINK ABOUT PROTECTING YOURSELF FROM
THE COMPETITION ON THE SAME IMAGE YOU ARE INVESTING IN. AND, AFTER THIS,
ONCE THE PUBLIC LOSES INTEREST IN THE IMAGES AND WANTS SOMETHING NEW, YOU
HAVE TO KEEP ADDING TO THE PRODUCT-LINE, OR LOSE FAVOR WITH CUSTOMERS AND
RETAIL CONSIGNEE OUTLETS -- WITHOUT WHICH, YOUR PRODUCT LINE MAY DIE OUT.
That means you have to have a contual influx of new images, and a large
investment in each item bearing each different image.

So when people ask me if they can make money at this, I
tell them "Not really." and "It's a lot more work than you
think, and many people in the label business have tried for years, always
with limited success and long term failures." To which they invariably
ask, "IF NO ONE IS MAKING MONEY AT IT,
THEN WHY ARE YOU DOING IT?" And I reply:
"BECAUSE I HAVE DONE THIS FULL-TIME, EVERY DAY FOR 25 YEARS, HAVE WRITTEN
BOOKS ON LABEL ART, SPENT HUNDREDS OF HOURS RESEARCHING LICENSING CONTRACT
LAW AND IMAGE MARKETING. I HAVE ALSO OBTAINED THOUSANDS OF IMAGES FROM NOW-DEFUNCT
PRINTING HOUSES, WHICH NO ONE ELSE HAS, MOST IMAGES BEING IN THE PUBLIC
DOMAIN (PRE-1920), OR SIMPLY FREE OF COPYRIGHT CLAIMS. IN SOME CASES I HAVE
OBTAINED THE RIGHTS FOR REPRODUCTIONS, OR I HAVE MY OWN PUBLICATION RIGHTS
FROM PRIOR USES. I USE LABELS THAT NO ONE ELSE HAS INSTEAD OF THE SAME COMMONLY
AVAILABLE LABELS ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TRIED OR FAILED WITH.

I can better avoid many of the pitfalls others have gone through, by
using images that have not and won't be a problem. Companies like Sunkist,
Inc. very actively seek out and STOP people from infringing on their brands
and images! Anyone I have seen try this endeavour as a "cottage industry"
or "home business" have barely been able to make a profitable
venture of it. So I avoid using their images without permission.

You see, if you are seeking to reproduce labels that are already available
to collectors, you have to consider how many images are actually AVAILABLE
at all to use. Some labels there are ten of and others there are 100,000
of!. There are two types of labels available to most collectors, these are
"common" and "rare." Common labels are almost all from
the late1940s to the early 1970s and number a couple thousand brands, half
of which are non-pictorial. Most of these were found in large numbers from
5,000 to 100,000 or more copies known, so there are literally millions of
original common labels in dealers hands and that have been sold globally
for thirty years to tens of thousands of customers. Labels from Sunkist,
which they protect, make up hundreds of those brands and images. Most of
these "common labels" are copyrighted, owned by new publishers
in the new marketplace, or have already been tried on products and met with
failures. Whereas, Rare labels are usually older, limited in number, hard
to get, expensive, or not available at all, as they reside in large private
collections and institutions, or must be licensed from some other advanced
collector (whom you must pay fees). Out of the 6,000 available labels in
the world of common label collecting, half do not have images worth reproducing.
Of the 3,000 remaining about 200 of the available citrus labels are protected
by Sunkist. Then, there are about 1,000 still owned by successful long-standing
farming companies who still use them. Of the 1,800 remaining, they come
in 43 sizes and shapes, and these come from 24 different American states,
and several foreign countries. These labels have been gathered and put into
the collecting market for over 30 years. So the field of potential images
is a fairly finite pool. Of these remaing labels with nice images on them,
there are 200 or so subjects of the image: dogs, horses, flowers, people,
indians, forests, lakes, mountains and landmarks. From these topics you
try to find the ones you think your customers will like, not really realizing
that 500 other people have thought the same thing years ago, and probably
tried a product like a tea cup or a plate, an tin garbage can, decoratives
canisters, magnets, stickers, wallpaper, wrapping paper, hats, ties, aprons,
puzzles, calendars, thermometers, and more, all of which have already been
tried. Besides, many people only want labels from their state, meaning a
Florida shopper has no interest in labels from outside Florida. A Washington
state apple label collector, couldn't care less about a mouse-pd with any
California image on it. And the national market is even more fickle. You
may want to use one of the beautiful Sunkist images, specifically designed
for broad market-appeal,but you have to get written permission and probably
pay them a royalty depending on what you are making, how many you wish to
make, where you wish to sell them, and some restrictions on its use. Then,
once you narrow down the images you want to use, and the product(s) you
want to make, and where you plan to market them, you hire an attorney to
find out if the image is available. Then you practice due-diligence to contact
any obvious owner of the brand. If it is available, you negotiate to license
it from the prior user/copyright owner. If the image is without copyright,
you have to find out if anyone else in the gift market has published this
in some form and holds publication rights to it on specific products. If
you can't find the owner, and there is no claim on the art, and no one files
a desist and refrain order against you, then you just have to find a market
for enough of them to cover the costs of your new business. Then, after
the item comes to market, you find yourself with all the responsibilities
of the product manufacturering business. For any such business to be truly
good at this they have to have a national audience, or better, international.
Otherwise all sales would be home mail order, which can be slow, or, a localized
business limited to local traffic. So using common label images is now more
than ever more of a long-shot idea that's been worked at by many, for a
long time. It's really not something I can recommend from these observations.
And the greater ultimate truth is: ONCE YOU REALIZE THIS AND GO THROUGH
ALL THE MOTIONS, AND FIND THE PERFECT MARKET TO SELL YOUR NEW PRODUCTS IN,
THEY WILL BE COMPETING IN A LIMITED NUMBER OF PLACES AND WILL BE COMPEETING
WITH HUNDREDS OF OTHER EQUALLY WORTHY PRODUCTS AND GIFT ITEMS.

To be successful in selling images, you need available images to use
that the public has not seen before and is therefore profitable. And you'll
need a stream of them. This is easy if you have a lot of old, rare labels
NOT in the 6,000 "common labels" desrcibed above. That second
class of "Rare" labels is a realm most label collectors will never
explore, because there are about 5,000 more rare labels which came from
printing and lithograph company basement archives, or packing house attics
on some farm or from employees and artists from the printing firms. They
come from large personal collections from Washington, Oregon, California,
Texas, Florida, and elsewhere, built by farmers and families, and kids on
bikes and career artists, litho company salesmen samples and such. These
type of labels exist in numbers fewer than 100 copies known to exist. Extremely
rare labels number fewer than 20 known in the world. (There is even a realm
of several thousand known images which are one-of-a-kind unique labels.
This realm is where serious people who want to reproduce label images go
to find a stream of images to publish. Either they own their own collections
which they publish from, or they license the use of the images from the
owner. In America there are fewer than 100 "leading collections"
of this type, many in instutions, and many in the hands of people who just
don't want to share. They have no interest in being contacted. To successfully
reproduce rare label images on things, you need a very serious collection,
with lots of good images.

The final problem is, that these rare 5,000 images have all the same
problems applied to them as is described above for common labels. Many of
them are non-pictorial, some are rare but still owned or copyrighted by
someone. Others have already been exploited over the years, and the public
really isn't interested in those products or designs. So all the same problems
make it equally hard to find usuable rare images. The only hope is to control
a vast number of images that are attractive, new and safely marketable.
This is something very few people have.

Some of these collections have been opened to publish books about label
art. And out of frustration or deceit, people have been known to scan the
images from the books, and reproduce them for sale in antique stores and
on eBay. Some people borrow rare labels so as to make color copies at the
local copy-shop and put them in frames for high prices. Such forms of cheap-suit
infringement constitute very good reasons for serious collectors to not
welcome any form of exploitation of their collections. One label dealer
turned image publisher photographed dozens of rare, beautifully, privately-held
labels and made series of postcards, which cost a lot to creat e and market,
and in a few years disappeared from the market. T-shirts with label images
have come and gone a dozen times with no great fanfare. People don't really
buy the image on a mug, if they can buy a full size original of the label
for the same retail price!

The only successful publishers of retro-label images are in the product
manufacturing or licensing business, and have relationships with leading
collectors -- or do it all themselves. Of the world of ALL COLLECTIBLE LABELS,
only a small portion are even worth considering investing money in the reproduction
and marketing of, anyway.

But, if all that has not dissuaded you, feel free to read on. There is
additional information at the end of this page.

PAPER REPRODUCTIONS OF LABEL IMAGES:

There are two distinct types of reproducing of label images: (1) reproducing
them on paper as if they were real labels, or, (2) reproducing them on any
other medium, like coffee cups, t-shirts and other new products. For this
part of the discussion, I will speak of labels as the subject, not just
nuveau products bearing label images.

First, let's see what the difference is between a "REPRODUCTION"
AND A "FORGERY", the difference between a "LICENSED USE"
and an "UNLICENSED USE." And, let's see if there is any money
to be made in doing this, when so many real, authentic, original labels
are around for people to own, and where so many others have failed in so
many label-image ventures. Here are some things I have observed over the
past 25 years, and some definitions of these different concepts.

REPRODUCTIONS: Probably the most often asked question, and misunderstood
concept about label collecting is, REPRODUCTIONS. Today, with prices climbing
to hundreds of dollars each FOR ORIGINAL "RARE" LABELS, and with
incredible improvements in color-copier technology, many people are leery.
To a degree, caution is understandable, but, let's also be realistic. There
are probably more reproductions in the stamp and coin collecting hobbies,
than will ever be dreamed of in label collecting, and far more at stake,
but, that may be changing. In recent years, many people, especially those
in the antique business, have held the mistaken impression that labels available
today "must be reproductions." The fact is, that in the mid 1950s,
the entire coastal packing industry changed over from wooden boxes to pre-printed
cardboard. Since cardboard could have the labelling information printed
directly on it, labels were no longer necessary. Packer's left-over original
labels simply sat in the basements of packing houses unused. Then, in the
1960s and 70s (and still today), these labels have been gathered up and
circulated in various ways. Collectors and dealers may rest assured that
more than 99% of the time, they are dealing in originals. In label collecting,
many people have confused REPRODUCTIONS with FORGERIES, and that is where
the air needs to be cleared. A reproduction may not be bad at all, but,
a FORGERY, is always bad. Let's examine why.

A MATTER OF STRICT DEFINITION

A "Reproduction" is defined as, "to bring into existence
again, or re-create. To make a copy of, to produce again, to bring forward
anew", etc... This classification can include any legitimately owned
label or brand, that is legally reprinted by its owner.

When a packing company originally ordered labels from a lithograph house,
this would be called "production". The original hand-painted sketch
is photographed using a system of filters to separate the colors, and then
printed. Thus, these labels are "productions" of the original
art-work. Should the packer then run out of these labels, he will call up
the printer and order more. The printer will then "re-produce"
or "reprint" more copies for them as they are needed. Since individual
brands were often continually produced, revised, and re-produced for decades,
one could say that all labels are reproductions by pure definition. One
such label, CAMEL Brand pears, was re-printed (almost) annually from 1921-1978
(57+ years in use) and numbered around two-million copies used. This is
just one of thousands of long-lived brands, which were re-produced year
after year. During it's nearly 60 years of life, it was redesigned several
times, and in several sizes, for different types of fruits. It bore the
names of different towns from Napa to Loomis to Penryn, and different packers.

The difference today is, that most of the packers and farmers who originally
owned the labels are long out of business, the printers and their files
are gone, copyrights of brands have long ago expired and the files discarded,
the packing houses, farms and even the trees are gone, and there is now
no fruit to be packed and shipped. Almost none of today's citrus, pear and
apple packers use labels anymore and most haven't for twenty years (although
many vegetable and grape growers still do). Collectors today, buy, sell
and trade in their leftover labels. They don't need or use them, no printers
are making them anymore for them! So, there is no legally acceptable, legitimate
reason to re-produce or re-print a label, right? Or, is there?

WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS

In one fairly recent example, the Washington apple packing firm known
as BLUE CHELAN, in Chelan, Washington State, called a printing company in
1986 and had six of their historic labels reproduced for distribution to
the public. These were labels which they had stopped using years ago in
a paper form (but not on cardboard). And, although collectors complained
about these unmarked "nostalgic" reprintings, and rightfully so,
BLUE CHELAN's legal right to reproduce these labels was not a question.
They own the brands and art-works, and can reprint more when ever they like.
They have no intent to defraud the public. They are just making available
more of their own labels for people to enjoy.

How this affects collectors, is this: Of these labels, BLUE CHELAN, LAKE
CHELAN and CHELAN SUPREME, are not very graphically appealing, and are not
in high demand by collectors. Actually, there are fair quantities of the
original labels still available, and no one pays more than a dollar or two
for one, anyway. So, the recent reproductions would have almost no affect
on the label collecting community. Except, that they also reproduced three
other very attractive and often sought after labels: CRUISER, OUTBOARD and
MOUNTAIN GOAT. The older, original printings of CRUISER, now sells for up
to $25.00, OUTBOARD retails for up to $35.00, and MOUNTAIN GOAT usually
goes for $3.00 to $7.00. On top of this, there are older, rarer, versions
of MOUNTAIN GOAT and CRUISER that can go for over $100.00 each. An obvious
problem arises when an unaware buyer purchases the 1980s re- production
for the price of an original. Blue Chelan made no effort to install on these
reproductions any sort of qualifying mark, like " 1986 Blue Chelan."
Nonetheless, they were completely within their rights to "reproduce"
the labels.

WHAT TO LOOK FOR

There are subtle and conspicuous ways to tell one of these reproductions
(which the reader will find under the apple label listings of the Price
Guide). The main difference is the bright white paper stock they are printed
on. Flip them over and look at the back. Then compare this paper to a dozen
miscellaneous labels, and you'll clearly see the difference. Blue Chelan
was NOT trying to hoax the public, they just wanted to re-produce their
labels. Nothing wrong with that. But, buyers should learn to tell the difference.

FORESIGHT APPRECIATED

In another case, the new owners of Harry and David's Bear Creek Orchards
in Medford, Oregon, had the brands BEAR CREEK, TIPSY BEE, and CUB similarly
re-produced for a promotional item in their country store outlet, because
they had been getting requests for labels for years. In this case, they
were again, completely within their legal rights to re-produce the labels
for whatever purposes they wanted. Fortunately for collectors, they very
thoughtfully included a clearly visible notation along the bottom edge of
the labels that states it is: " 1987 Harry & David." On the
originals, of course, there are no such markings.

IN THEIR ANNUAL CALENDAR

In another instance, Diamond Fruit Growers of Hood River, Oregon made
reproductions of their 1912 label for use on a paper calendar in 1984. These,
too, say clearly that they are "Reproduction by Diamond Fruit Growers"
along the bottom border, which is fortunate, because the original 1912 label
is known to exist in numbers less than ten, and sells for over $100.00.
The new label, or calendar print, is worth about .10 cents. The inscription
is, unfortunately, in an added white border below the complete label image.
So, if this were trimmed away, the warning is no longer visible. Look for
the clean white paper stock it was printed on as your first clue, and the
varnishing as the second clue (the early label was never varnished). The
firm was completely within their legal rights to reproduce the labels.

SO YOU SEE

In each of these cases the owner of the brand exercised their legal right
to have their brands reproduced for their own purposes, and were (mostly)
thoughtful enough to provide that information visibly on each copy. These
firms were not trying to perpetrate a hoax, or FORGERY on the public, or
make more labels illicitly just to make a profit. Each firm spent a good
deal of money on their good intentions to have these labels made. And, the
most important point, is that they are long-standing, well known growers,
illustrating their own histories.

AN ASIDE

Corona Printing Company of southern California, also printed calendars
which featured full-size, full-color reproductions for civic purposes. It
was a legitimate use, with no intent to defraud, and no objections were
submitted to them for doing it. The same is true of a calendar I created
for KVIE Public Television in Sacramento. We featured 48 full color label
images, the main 12 were almost normal label size. These were suitable for
framing, but deliberately printed in sizes smaller than original labels.
We were trying to present the beautiful images, not forge them, and they
have calendar information on the back side.

FORGERIES

A "Forgery," on the other hand, is a label that is intended
to fool buyers into accepting a copy that is not authentic. It is defined
as "the act of making imitations of works of art for fraudulent purposes,
or to counterfeit with the intent to defraud; to practice deception or falsify;
made to resemble some genuine thing with the intent to deceive. "FORGERIES
differ from REPRODUCTIONS. FORGERIES are bad, and legitimate reproductions,
as we just discussed, are not. Another type of reproduction that can be
used as a forgery, COLOR LASER COPYING, will be discussed ahead. Right now,
let's look specifically at deliberate FORGERIES.

"HEY, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT THERE...?"

One such case of forged labels, involves a small group of citrus labels
that appeared at a swap meet in southern California in 1979. A well known
dealer came in and announced that he had available for sale or trade, small
quantities of a handful of very rare labels and was offering them at a "cut
rate." One collector who was familiar with the original versions of
these labels noticed that the paper they were printed on was coated with
substances never used on real labels. He also noted that a couple of the
original labels were printed from stone, and the now available ones were
not. One of the brands, ARDEN VILLA, in its original form, was bordered
with bronze dust, and sells today for nearly $250.00. However, the copies
being offered were more dull in color and had a gold-colored ink, rather
than the original bronze. The paper was a clay-coated variety, also very
new, which was fresh and white when flipped over. These labels even "smelled
new" according to two knowledgeable collectors. Also, all of these
forgeries were on the same weight and type of paper. The originals would
have been on different papers, from different printers, and from different
eras. So, for a number of reasons, forgeries are fairly easy to spot. Four
of the labels had originally been printed by the Schmidt Lithograph Company,
and bore the firm's "bug" in the lower border. Anyone familiar
with Schmidt's labels would know that these weren't printed by them.

"WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?"

When questioned about the recent find of labels, the man claimed that
they were purchased from a private party ("a women who met him at a
gas station on her way out of town, and had them in the trunk of her car")
who assured him these were real, when in fact they were forgeries. Because
of the clues illustrated above, collectors were quickly alerted to the hoax,
and, the perpetrator of the hoax was kept from doing any real harm. Unfortunately,
before the discovery was made that these were not originals, several collectors
had already spent money to by them and ended up rather disappointed. Among
the known forgeries at that time were citrus brands such as, ARDEN VILLA,
CAMP FIRE, ETIWANDA BLUE JAY, GROSSMONT, BULL DOG, GOLDEN BOWL and FOUNTAIN.

"HOW OBVIOUS CAN YOU BE?"

Something else that proved the labels were forgeries, was another label
that showed up, after the first batch. The man who had "obtained"
and circulated the forgeries, came to the next meeting with a label he had
made for himself. After a career in the packing-house refrigeration business,
the man had a gimmick label designed and printed. The label featured an
Eskimo floating along on an ice-drift. He called the label "frigid-
midget," which is a take off on a slang term about a "frigid midget
with a rigid digit." This label was printed on the same type and weight
of clay-coated paper, the same inks and varnish as the forgeries, and looked
and smelled just as new as the rest. Anyone familiar with color printing
knows, it is an expensive process to print labels. One might conjecture,
that, in an effort to reduce the cost of his own label, he "ganged"
several labels into one printing. It is important to note, that no one has
accused the man of forging labels. Rather, they all witnessed the introductions
of these labels at collector meetings, and have all maintained how unusual
the "coincidence" is. He explained it as "meeting a woman
at a gas station who was leaving town, and he bought them from the trunk
of her car." Knowing and proving, are two different things. Not long
after the discovery and declaration that this man's labels were not genuine,
he removed them from the market and moved away. Some years later, most of
this bogus stock was purchased by a dealer, who, thankfully, marked every
one he sold with a stamp stating that it was a reproduction. Later, the
entire stock was again sold to an antique dealer in Santa Barbara county.
UNMARKED copies can currently (1994) be purchased in his antique shop for
$5.00 ea. This person told me on the phone he had no intention of marking
them as forgeries. So, be forewarned.

A MORE POPULAR METHOD -- COLOR XEROX

Another type of forgery appeared in Sacramento in the early 1980s, when
a local printing company questionably reproduced the citrus labels RED SKIN,
CUPID and GOLDEN SCEPTER and the Blue Anchor, Inc., pear label SMILING THRU.
These labels had a rough pebbled finish to the surface, similar to color
Xeroxes and when set side by side with the real brands, could be easily
recognized as fake by any experienced collector. Xerox color coping was
a new technology at the time and was occasionally used to forge labels in
very small numbers. The paper was white and mottled in a way true labels
never were. They sold for a few dollars each. But today color laser copiers
have replaced this old color printing technology.

HARDER TO DETECT -- PROFESSIONAL JOB

In a more recent discovery, the Louisiana yam labels JOE SAMMY'S and
SMOKY JIM'S, both featuring black men, were (possibly) illegally reproduced,
or forged. I say possibly, because the ones that have been circulated in
the past several years, are again on recent paper, poorly printed, and bear
a blurry version of the Louis Roesch printer's bug. By now, these have circulated
to dealers and honest people everywhere. The question remains, are these
originals from Louis Roesch's presses, or did the packer have a local, lesser
quality printer make them for him. One eastern dealer says there is no evidence
they were forged. However, in the printing trade, no printer will print
a label bearing another printer's bug, unless they are hired as a sub- contractor
to produce runs that the first printer is too busy to manufacturer, so they
hire other litho houses to run jobs for them. Such a case would be, if,
let's say, Schmidt Lithograph hired Olsen Brothers to handle their overflow
when their presses got too busy. In this instance, the plates from Schmidt's
would be taken over to Olsen and run on their presses. The Schmidt bug would
appear, even though Olsen did the actual printing. Olsen would be paid for
the work, but, the client would still be getting his labels (effectively)
from Schmidt.

LOUISIANA YAMS OF SUSPECT ORIGIN

Louisiana yam labels have been gaining a lot of popularity over the past
few years. A few of these labels feature African Americans on them, and
are fairly popular items. But, originals seem to be very rare, as in the
case of the JOE SAMMY and SMOKEY JIM brands, this author found and showed
the suspected forgeries to a friend who owns the Louis Roesch Lithograph
company in San Francisco, that had made the originals many years before.
He told me that these had not come from his presses, but, must have been
reproduced somewhere back-East. I also have many original, dated file-samples
of these labels from Schmidt Litho and Louis Roesch. None of these look
anything like the newest printings. So, the newest printings are suspect,
to say the least.

Since the discovery of these two images, two more yam-label forgeries
have shown up in Illinois and elsewhere, COON an POSSUM, both featuring
animal images. It is possible that the owners of these labels, legally "reproduced"
their brands, but, no attempt was made at declaring this for the sake of
collectors, and the Louis Roesch bug was not removed. Popular belief maintains
that they are forgeries. An original copy of JOE SAMMY or SMOKEY JIM would
sell for around $50.00 or more. The forgeries sell for up to $8.00. The
POSSUM and COON labels with the animals, sell for $25.00 plus as originals,
and up to $12.00 as forgeries.

DO UNTO OTHERS

This practice of forging labels is really not viable in the face of several
million original labels still being available to collectors. It is foolish
to reproduce labels for two reasons. Once discovered, dealers would not
trust him or buy from him again. Besides this, it is very expensive to make
color forgeries (or any color printing for that matter) in quantity. So,
he would lose a lot of money as a result. The main reason for this, is that
any label worth forging will have an obviously high value in the market
place. So, forgers will only forge labels they think they can make money
off of. And the decorator market has plenty to choose from without any forgeries.
There is "no money in it."

ON THE WHOLE, NO NEED TO WORRY

Fortunately, despite a few gloomy reports, very few forgeries are known
of produce-crate labels. Perhaps, in any hobby where money is a factor,
it is to be expected. Vigilance will be its own reward. But, fear is unwarranted
at this time. There are enough well known, responsible dealers to help the
collector avoid the problems of forgeries. There are many sharp eyes out
there, and label dealers/collectors police their own. Once a forgery is
spotted, it is only a matter of a few phone calls before the wheels are
set in motion to alert dealers to the forgery's existence. If you have any
doubts, there are people who can help. But, overall, there is really no
need to worry. The fruit crate label hobby is still young and innocent enough
that no one is going to get rich by selling forgeries. It is too cost prohibitive
to mass-reproduce labels in color, and most modern, respectable lithographers
and printers around the country won't do it as a matter of ethics and law.
Forgeries are the minutest exception, and not the rule.

STAMPING OUT FORGERIES

The Citrus Label Society in southern California announced "voluntary
stamping program" in 1982, whereby, any forgeries brought to the society
meetings would be stamped on the back by the club secretary with a rubber
stamp stating: "REPRODUCTION - Marked By The Citrus Label Society."

A WRENCH IN THE WORKS

Now that we have defined the difference between reproductions and forgeries,
we get into the grey-area of reproductions mentioned before. Some people
will still call forgeries, "reproductions," for whatever reason.
But, despite this, the two distinct definitions apply. There are PRODUCTION
labels, REPRODUCTION labels, and then there are FORGERIES. Everybody got
that? Well, today, there is another class of imitation labels that can be
either reproductions or forgeries. COLOR LASER-COPIES!!!

COLOR LASER COPIERS -- BE CAREFUL

The only bittersweet threat beyond mass forgery of a label is now the
color laser copier. Canon and Xerox Corporations, makers of copiers for
decades, and recently Kodak, have all developed and begun distributing color
plain-paper copiers which have remarkable capabilities. The color and resolution
is so good, in fact, that for a few years the FBI has been hunting down
people who forge (counterfeit) paper money. It has become a major problem.
The forgeries actually pass for real bills in most cases, especially in
machines that make change, but, these are being re-fitted to recognize a
false bill. A new technology has been (is being) added to these color-copier
machines, to actually "see" money, and to either print VOID on
it in red letters, or mark it discreetly so authorities can trace it to
the source. Should a label owner want to try and prosecute forgers for illegally
forging their family label, the laws and mechanisms are in place to do so!

BITTERSWEET CONSEQUENCE

Today's new color copiers are truly remarkable in the quality of color
they can reproduce, and truly extraordinary forgeries can now be made of
any color label, in its full size for about $2.50. Laid side by side, these
copies are nearly impossible to tell apart, unless you have a well-trained
eye, or check the papers they are printed on. Labels sold in a frame, will
be impossible to tell, unless you take them out, or know EXACTLY what you
are looking at. The reason this is new technology is "bittersweet,"
is because it can have some very positive uses for labels collectors, along
these lines:

"I'M TRYING TO FIND MY FAMILY'S LABEL"

Suppose you have a label that is unique, and the family who originally
owned the brand, saw it in an article you did for a magazine. No one in
the family has an original, or has even seen one in fifty years. Now, they
call and want some for the family. But, there aren't any. The one in the
magazine article is "unique." The best they can get, is a color
copy which they can frame for the dining room wall. I have personally made
many such copies of labels in my collection, specifically for families to
put on their walls. I deem it a good-will gesture, because, so many people
have given family items to me over the years. I will also give them originals,
if there are enough to give. On top of giving the family something they
can enjoy and be proud of, it is a pleasant way to let a broader audience
appreciate the art-form all over again. This may seem an unusual admission
to make, as a purist in the hobby, but, there are three important facts
to remember:

(1) I don't charge more than the $3.00 to $5.00 it takes to make the
copy for a family member or historical society. (2) ON THE BACK OF EACH
AND EVERY COPY I MAKE IS THE FOLLOWING STAMPED INFORMATION:

REPRODUCTION

THIS COPY IS A FACSIMILE REPRODUCTION OF

AN ORIGINAL LABEL, CREATED FOR REFERENCE

AND SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH AN

ORIGINAL LITHOGRAPH.

CERTIFIED ____________________________/_____

(3) Over the years, I have accumulated tens of thousands of unique labels,
from people giving them to me. Therefore, in appreciation, I have always
strived to provide real copies of family labels to people who ask me, whenever
possible. If it is not possible, I am willing to use color laser copier
technology to make a copy of my original for them. To date, I have made
about fifty of these only and every one bears my stamp (above)!!

COLOR LASER COPY vs. PHOTOGRAPHY

Years ago, a man took several Sacramento River pear labels to be copied.
These were unique and the owner was not willing to give them up. The man
went to a camera shop and had them photographed in color, enlarged and printed
in normal size. The prints were $30.00 each. A color laser copy of the same
is $3.00 each.

REPAIRS AND DISPLAY PURPOSES

Another great use for this technology is for repairing damaged labels
with portions missing. This is especially useful for labels soaked off of
box-heads. Many have missing pieces, and a color copy can help repair them.
By copying a complete label in full color, a collector can "cut and
paste" the color-copy to the original and restore the missing portion
for display purposes. In my opinion, this enhancement to a damaged label
is perfectly acceptable. If a complete label isn't available, you can copy
the damaged area, and just use an adjoining area to fix the missing piece.
I have done this for years and know other collectors who have also used
this technique. This is one of the blessings of color laser copier technology.

UNGUARDED DISPLAYS AND HEAVY SUNLIGHT

Recently, the new owners and developers of the building in San Francisco
which used to house Schmidt Lithograph Company, called upon me to make an
exhibit for them. This exhibit consisted of more than sixteen - 48"
x 48" plexiglass panels, illustrating the chronological history of
Schmidt. To tell the story, I used 400 hundred of my rarest artifacts and
many of my oldest and most treasured images and photographs -- most of which
are unique. There was no way I was going to permanently mount my one-of-a-
kind artifacts for this permanent, unguarded exhibit. Also, the third floor
hallway, where the exhibit now resides, is full of windows and sunlight.
Real artifacts would fade dramatically in a matter of months and be ruined.
Whereas, color-copies are much longer lived and completely replaceable.
So, I made laser color copies of each item, instead, and mounted them in
the panels, every one bearing my warning stamp on the reverse! Ten of the
panels had these trimmed reproductions and six of the panels were filled
with real labels, but, all common ones which Schmidt had produced. Each
of the panels with reproductions in them, also had a warning in an obviously
visible location, that the whole show was made of color copies. I hoped
this would discourage vandalism of the panels.

The show was a complete success and still hangs permanently in the building,
and no one cares that the labels are reproductions. It is quite probable
that some of the labels would have been stolen if each panel hadn't warned
that they are worthless copies. Meanwhile, all my cherished, original artifacts
are safely where they belong, in my collections. So, again, this is a perfectly
acceptable practice, given the nature of the presentation, and the safeguards
that were exercised (in my opinion).

A MOST FORTUNATE REST STOP

Passing a restaurant in central California, the author went in to have
lunch. On the walls, everywhere, were hundreds of framed fruit labels. Amid
this spectacle, were two MONTE RIO Brand, turn-of-the-century citrus labels
from Placer County (and a mate pear label). This was unbelievable. I asked
the owner for the name of the person who gave them to her. I then contacted
that person, and found no more existed. So, I asked the owner if I could
have the originals for preservation, and they could display a copy in the
frame instead. She agreed, and now the rare, original labels are safely
stored, and the public gets to enjoy the images, anyway. Here, again, color
copies served collecting, instead of harming it.

RUNNING ON EMPTY

Finally, on another occasion: We had to pull off the highway to get gasoline
in Mendocino County, one time. There was a gas station in Ukiah, California,
owned by a man who had been a "box- maker" earlier in his life.
The office of this particular gas station was unusual, in that it was inside
the stump of an old, hollowed out, redwood tree. Inside, there were about
25 or 30 pear box crate-ends, hanging on the wall. Many of the label were
very old and some were unique (as it turns out). They were also fading as
a result of being exposed for so many years to sunlight. After interviewing
the owner about his career in agriculture, I asked to be allowed to take
the box-heads home, and soak off the original labels, to which he agreed.
Color Xerox copies of the best of these were made (and a few more interesting
ones), and glued back onto the box-heads. Some of the originals were faded
very badly, so, a copy of one of my cleaner ones was made instead. This
actually improved the color quality of the display overall, which the owner
was thankful for. The following weekend, they were all returned to the gas
station and re-hung on the walls. Once again, color copier technology helped
the purposes of collecting, and still allowed the public to enjoy the images
on the gas station wall.

A MATTER OF HONESTY

Given an ethical base, there is no reason that laser color technology
cannot be benignly used to bring the art form to the public, especially
in permanent installations, such as exhibits in restaurants and the like.
Of course, this would never do for a museum quality exhibit where originals
are the whole idea. But, in some circumstances (the ones I have outlined)
it is the most appropriate and acceptable course (again, in my opinion).
I was warned years ago, that I should never want my good name and hard-earned
reputation associated with reproduction labels. Especially because, most
people confuse the terms reproductions with forgeries. At that time, color
Xerox machines were new. The fact that it would be bad for me and bad for
the hobby, is obvious. And, I still fundamentally agree. No one should want
this. However, under the circumstances illustrated above, I have no problem
making "explainable facsimiles" for justifiable uses. On a limited
basis, and if the copies are clearly marked, I see no reason why it should
reflect poorly on my reputation, or anyone else's. Under the right circumstances,
and using stamps, markings or other honest practices to identify the color
copies, there is no reason why color reproductions or facsimiles can not
be beneficial to the hobby. Under the wrong circumstances, or misuse of
such technology, color reproductions can be devastating to the good will
of the hobby as a whole, and such practitioners should be and may be prosecuted.

The fact is, it is inevitable that people will (and already have) use
this new laser color technology to copy labels to sell or trade to an unsuspecting
public. Such is said to be true in Canada, where the rare and beautiful
"OGOPOGO" and "BLUE BIRD" labels are already being circulated
for profit and trade. In a "best of all possible worlds" scenario,
everyone who does reproduce labels by such means, will be honest enough
to admit it, or mark their forgeries as such. But, unfortunately, unmarked
copies have already, (and unhappily) ended up at swap-meets, in some cases,
their sellers "not realizing" they were reproductions. It is best
to limit the copies you make for any reason, and to mark them all immediately.
Reputations are at stake.

IDENTIFICATION TRICKS

Besides the rough finish Color Xerox forgeries often have, there are
some other ways to spot a bogus brand. One clue, is that if someone is going
to go to the trouble, time and expense to forge labels, he would most likely
forge a rare and attractive label that would normally sell for a high price,
such as those mentioned in the previous paragraphs. This is true of nearly
any item forged for profit. No one in their right mind is going to forge
a plentiful $2.00 label, but, more likely candidates, such as labels which
have already established themselves as rare,expensive and desirable.

SCREEN PATTERNS, DEAD GIVE AWAY

Older original labels, especially those printed from stone, when looked
at through a magnifying glass, will show that the image itself is made up
of thousands of tiny dots of ink on white. Today, it would be nearly impossible
to reproduce this type of label by re-using the stone process. Therefore,
any forgeries will have to be photographically screened for the color- separations,
and will, thus, be fairly easy to identify, by the mixture, as it were,
of printing techniques.

TOM CAT Brand

One such example is "TOM CAT" lemons which is a very well known
and desirable brand in the retail trade. The original often sells for around
$45.00 to 65.00 (or more) and carries the Sunkist name on the lemon wrapper.
The forgery, first noticed being offered in a nationally distributed publication
by a dealer in Chicago, does not say "Sunkist" on the wrap. In
this case, the forgery was advertised as a reproduction, but, the seller
had no legal right of ownership to the brand. Not all forgeries, however,
will carry this obvious a clue, as was true in the citrus labels mentioned
above. In this case, the forger didn't want to risk the wrath of Sunkist's
legal department, so, they made sure to remove the Sunkist name from the
art-work, before forging the copies.

Few people realize that the label was first used for grapes and pomegranates,
plums and persimmons, through the California Fruit Exchange, by the Cutler
Fruit Growers Association from the early 1920s to 1939. It was also used
concurrently for citrus fruits by the Orosi Foothill Citrus Association,
for many years (oranges: 1926-43), (lemons: 1931-40s). All known versions
of the brand were produced by Schmidt Lithograph Company, between the early
1920s and the late 1940s.

Today, there are fewer than 10 known grape-size copies in existence,
and no price is established for them, as none are known to have been sold.
The Lemon label sells for $35.00 to $65.00, generally. The orange label
sell for upwards of $200.00. Only two dozen are currently known to exist
in collections.

The image found unusual uses as advertising posters for two separate
exhibits of label art in Berlin, Germany and at the Univ. of Missouri, Kansas
City Art Gallery in 1972. Today, the image is still occasionally found on
items such as post cards, stationary and envelopes, coffee cups, refrigerator
magnets and even as a jig-saw puzzle.

photographic techniques, will look like a tiny honeycomb grid throughout
the image, of closely attached colors, just as one might see in a color
photo in any modern magazine. This is known as a "screen pattern".
It is nearly impossible to photographically reproduce an old "screened"
image with today's techniques, as the screen patterns cannot help but conflict.
This is called a "moire" pattern. Any trained eye can spot the
difference immediately. An original label printed from stone ,before the
mid 1920s, will absolutely not have a screen pattern. To falsely re-print
a vintage label without detection, a forger must actually have the original
artists painting to recreate a label perfectly, and even then the colors
are standardized today and the inks of yesterday were often customized in
some way. So,

the technological barriers of forging labels today in this way make it
a very unattractive practice to attempt, if not totally impossible. Beyond
laser copying, that is. One dealer once said that he could absolutely reproduce
a rare orange label so well, that no one could tell it from an original.
This is 99% impossible to do today, given the nature of modern scientific
detection and method. Dream on. He may fool some unwitting buyers, but,
why bother?

STOP AND SMELL THE PAPER

Two other quick checks that any collector can perform to see if their
label is an original is by flipping the label over and looking at the back.
Does it look old, or is the paper stained and yellowing? Does the label
smell old and musty or stale? Is there mildew in the paper? Are there a
few minor tears or folds or even staple holes? Is the label brittle from
age? Is it a coated type of paper? Older labels have the feel and often
the

aroma of age. Anyone who has been in the basement of a packing house
knows that smell. Original labels were printed on special paper stocks,
designed and created for lithographers, so the labels would dry flat and
even on the box-head after application. At Schmidt's, this was known as
"Super" paper. Modern papers, are created in heavier weights,
and small presses don't use it anymore. If you put a dozen old Schmidt labels
on a table face down, and put the suspected forgeries among them, they will
stand out like an elephant in a frog pond.

A FINAL NOTE ON COLOR COPIES

Several years ago, I went to Spain as part of a European adventure for
several months to find foreign labels. Throughout the country all kinds
of stores had labels, which I collected. But the most startling was an historian
of their massive citrus

industry. His collection numbered in the thousands, and a friend of his,
had yet another collection numbering about 800. Over the past few years
we have traded for hundreds of real Spanish labels for me, and American
citrus labels for them. It has been a wonderful relationship. But, as is
true in all collections, there are a number of unique pieces (meaning one
known), that I will never get. So, in about two-dozen cases, my Spanish
friends have used color copiers to make a few copies for my collection.
In this way, I can still own the image and show it to people, even if I
don't own the original.

Also several years ago, I sold my own Florida citrus collection, but
not until after I had made a color copy of every label in it to keep as
a reference. A large number of the labels were one of a kind, and I wanted
to keep the images. But my interests don't lay in Florida labels, so I sold
them. I am, nonetheless, very happy to have a full set of color reference
prints.

GIMMICK LABELS ("label-like designs")

There are also a small number of "Gimmick" labels, or, label-like
designs, that have been produced, which include labels such as "Frigid
Midget", created as a gag by a southern california refrigeration repairman.
Another type of gimmick would be the stock labels that were printed to advertise
a large public exhibit of orange box labels at a major university. These
were not intended for sale necessarily, and the images were not taken directly
from rare, collectible real brands. There is a label titled SAN ONOFRE which
depicts the San Onofre nuclear power plant spewing waste water into the
Pacific ocean. There is also a CENTENNIAL orange label that was produced
by the agricultural inspection service for their one hundredth year centennial,
and features an image of an officially dressed inspector working in an orange
grove. The Rain Bird Sprinkler Manufacturing Corporation of Glendora, California
produced a design for their irrigation products in 1979. These labels are
intended for fun and not to trick collectors.

Two other labels that find their roots in fruit label art, come from
Bloomfield Farms in Santa Clara. These two labels were used on boxes of
FIREWOOD in the form of split oak and madrone logs. Bloomfield farms also
had labels for cherries and other fruits over the decades. These two labels,
however, were for firewood, which, after all, is an agricultural product.
Another popular use for labels, it seems, is as ads for exhibits of other
labels. Exhibit advertisers usually use a fairly abundant label for this
purpose, and print only a small number of them.

HOW MANY REAL LABELS WERE/ARE THERE?

The question has often been asked, "How many labels were there?"
There really is no way to tell, because there were so many printers, so
many packers and small farms, and so many types of produce. However, in
a feeble attempt to answer the question, an equation for calculating that
figure might be written, something like this:

Multiply 60 lithographers and "job" printers, by an average
of fifty years (plus or minus) of production each, times 45 agricultural
commodities, times three western states, British

Columbia and the rest (25) of the U.S. agricultural states, times the
number of individual packers and shippers who ever labeled their products,
times the number of labels they each ordered (including re-designs and informational
changes over the years), times the longevity of each brand, plus all the
temporary and stock labels used, minus those copies that were unused due
to mistakes in printing or closure of the packing house before all the stocks
of labels were used, also those that were burned, hauled to the dump, used
as scratch-paper, and those destroyed by mice and other pests, times the
percentage of labels still being produced and the number of labels yet undiscovered,
minus all the labels used on crates......., equals = ?

That's approximately how many labels there were. We think. Then there
are all the other countries like Argentina, Tasmania, Australia, South Africa
and Canada and Spain to estimate.

Realistically, the question now should be, "how many labels are
currently known to exist, that collectors have found?" That's a much
easier question.

To figure out this, a database would need to be made of all known collections
public and private -- a process which would be a labor of love and take
many, many years to compile. Many collectors have made computer files of
their collections, but, most of these are for their own personal use and
not formatted to be usefully included in the present working databases for
this guide. Even so, this would still only represent a portion of what is
out there.

Currently there are estimates for American brands alone, of over 3,000
coastal pear brands, 6,000 coastal apples, 8 to 15-20 thousand American
citrus label varieties, and probably about 100,000 different miscellaneous
fruit and vegetable labels across the country, used for all fresh commodities.
So far, that's 125,000. Frankly, no one will ever know how many different
labels were used, there is simply no way to tell. Not all labels were copyrighted,
so, official files only represent a small portion of the overall. Don't
forget, too, that it is likely an equal number of can labels were designed
and used for canned fruits and vegetables during the same century, from
most of the same regions and by many of the same printers. No matter how
the estimating is done, the top figure for FRESH fruit and vegetable labels,
world-wide, for the past 125 years, is probably about 200,000 different,
but, this would be hard to prove.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

COPYRIGHT LAW and infringement costs

As I have said, I am not a copyright lawyer. If you intend to utilize
label images for any reason, I really suggest you hire one and ask them
how and if to proceed. If you try to publish protected images without permission
and the owner finds out -- depending on the extent of the infringement --
they may send you a nice letter telling you to "desist and refrain"
or "cease and desist" order to discontinue manufacturing, recall
stocks from store shelves, prove destruction of photos, advertising bearing,
printing plates and all stocks bearing the image(s). You may be audited
so the firm can asses the infringement, and you may be held liable for damages,
attorney's fees, and much more. The costs of infringement can range from
a slap on the hand, to a multi-million dollar law suit.

COST OF PRODUCTION NOWADAYS

You must consider modern costs of production versus the potential marketplace
profitability. Whether you will need a few cases of t-shirts and a load
of iron-on transfers, or a series of coffee-mugs, you have to buy raw product
and art, then manufacturer, package, store, ship, sell and deal with the
product. These costs are not for the timid. And, if you pay a company to
handle it, you makee far less profit.

HOBBY PROTECTION LAWS

I have heard of a National Hobby Protection Act, which I have never seen.
It stands to reason that laws exist to fend of would-be forgers in any hobby
or collectibles, like stamps or coins or other expensive collectibles, and
perhaps statutes under various fair trade and unfair competition rules,
or prosacutory proceedures against counterfeiting goods. You need an attorney
for all that.

PUBLIC DOMAIN

Labels meeting certain legal criteria may be deemed in the public domain.
For labels, this generally means a specific amount of time from when a copyright
beigns and ends, without being renewed. Most labels before 1920 are said
to be in the public domain. But that does not mean no one as rights to its
use. Contact an attorney to do copyright searches, and due-diligence attempts
to contact possible owners before marketing any images you are not sure
of. Despite everything I have said here, some labels are old, and rare,
and beautiful and free of claim, and anyone can do whatever they want with
it. That still does not mean you will meet with any success doing so.

Some people say "a copyright only lasts the artist's lifetime plus
fifty years" which may be true in original art made by an artist. But,
labels were designed by a staff artist in a lithograph company who may have
died in 1930, but the label is owned this very day by the fruit-shipping
firm who ordered it's design in the first place. And, a label from the 1910s
can still be under copyright, even though the artist is dead and the printing
firm is gone.

PATCO LICENSING PROCEEDURES

If you have an interest in pursuing licensing further, or perusing my
sample licensing contract, <click here>

If you have read this entire page, and still have a specific question,
feel free to contact me <email
Pat> I would be open to all input, corrections, comments, ideas and
suggestions, good, bad or otherwise. Thanks! -- Pat