Note to religious people who care about me. If I'm still alive but sickly or otherwise in sad shape, don't let me hear you praying for me. That will send my blood pressure through the roof and I'll drop dead for sure.

After I'm dead, do what you want.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

Note to religious people who care about me. If I'm still alive but sickly or otherwise in sad shape, don't let me hear you praying for me. That will send my blood pressure through the roof and I'll drop dead for sure.

After I'm dead, do what you want.

If you believe it has 0% effect, why should it matter what people do?

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Note to religious people who care about me. If I'm still alive but sickly or otherwise in sad shape, don't let me hear you praying for me. That will send my blood pressure through the roof and I'll drop dead for sure.

After I'm dead, do what you want.

If you believe it has 0% effect, why should it matter what people do?

-Nam

It is my only flaw. I've tried to have others, but so far, no good.

It shouldn't matter. It does. I'll work on it.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

I've no objection to people praying - even for me - but we have to understand that praying is not a substitute for doing something useful. It has well been said that praying is 'the least anyone can do' - literally!

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Note to religious people who care about me. If I'm still alive but sickly or otherwise in sad shape, don't let me hear you praying for me. That will send my blood pressure through the roof and I'll drop dead for sure.

After I'm dead, do what you want.

If you believe it has 0% effect, why should it matter what people do?

I'm glad my family has honored my requests to keep off Facebook any notice of my double hospital trip this year. The last thing I want to see/receive are lots of comments from people (many, many more than just my family) praying for me. That's what a lot of them would do -- in spades.

If I am alive and you are on Facebook and hospitalized, I will not return the favor of a prayer. People who give prayers think they need prayers and if you don't give them what they think they need, they think you are less of a human. Facebook is like organized school prayer.

If I am dead, I won't be around to give a damn. Do whatever floats your boat.

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I'm glad my family has honored my requests to keep off Facebook any notice of my double hospital trip this year. The last thing I want to see/receive are lots of comments from people (many, many more than just my family) praying for me. That's what a lot of them would do -- in spades.

That's not the same thing as my point. Like, I asked my mother not to send me religious crap, or forward religious crap to my e-mail or phone but if, as separate, wants to pray for me, I don't care, that doesn't effect me because that's her on her, I'm only involved in her mind rather than being actually involved. However, if she sends me something, then I'm directly involved.

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If I am alive and you are on Facebook and hospitalized, I will not return the favor of a prayer. People who give prayers think they need prayers and if you don't give them what they think they need, they think you are less of a human.

I have an account but I rarely go there. Just like with Myspace (which is still around), have an account, many friends, rarely go there.

However, if you 'friend' family, and friends who are religious then you agreed to welcome their messages, no matter what they are, including religious unless, like with my mother: you ask them not to.

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Facebook is like organized school prayer.

I wouldn't know but I doubt most of it is. Though, I do find that more older people use Facebook than they may have used Myspace. There wasn't a movie about Myspace, and I don't think the owner became a billionaire.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Prayer has 0% effect. It's like wishes or hope. Same effect: 0%. It's only the individual person themselves who state they give an effect, and therefore attribution is given to those things.

But they, themselves, do nothing. Can't do anything.

-Nam

True, sadly. The thing is, like the video on this on this website, people pray for someone and expect that their god might heal them or let them die (take them to himself). Thus they do not expect the prayer to make any change - which is exactly what we would expect if things were just chance of if their god had already decided what it to happen and does not change his mind when he is prayed to. Either way, prayer is pointless. I suppose Christians, over the centuries, have learned this lesson and no longer expect that the promises of Jesus in the gospels were true. It is safer for their faith to think that prayer is a good thing for the person prayed for but, at the same time, not going to affect the physical world at all.

Of course, there are still some people who do believe the promises in the bible and are prepared to let their children die rather than use doctors and medicines. I've see various cases over the years where prayer was used instead of proper treatment for diabetes and children have died. Oddly, sects who believe this stuff don't learn from it.

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Praying instead of getting medical help is an effect, and it's not zero.

That's not praying, that's willful or unwillfil ignorance and most likely indoctrination. Has no effect or effect on whether prayer, in this case, can be deemed an action or inaction based on such a premise. One has nothing to do with the other.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Praying instead of getting medical help is an effect, and it's not zero.

That's not praying, that's willful or unwillfil ignorance and most likely indoctrination. Has no effect or effect on whether prayer, in this case, can be deemed an action or inaction based on such a premise. One has nothing to do with the other.

-Nam

I rather think you have missed the pint here, Nam, that for some religious people, healing by prayer is mandated. After all, for those who take the Nt teaching seriously, treating an ill or injured person involves prayer and anointing. The texts offer the hope the god will here the prayers and, in effect, do what is asked. God healing a person of whatever is wrong with them is far better than any doctor could do so, for them, prayer is the right way to go.

Now you and I both know that prayer doesn't work - if there is a god he completely ignores requests for help. The only connection between prayer and action is by chance and nothing else. So if a religious family prayer around the bedside of a sick child we know that unless the child is suffering from something that gets better on its own it is going to get worse and die. Prayer in these circumstances is worse than useless as it doesn't have any effect and could result in a death.

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Praying instead of getting medical help is an effect, and it's not zero.

That's not praying, that's willful or unwillfil ignorance and most likely indoctrination. Has no effect or effect on whether prayer, in this case, can be deemed an action or inaction based on such a premise. One has nothing to do with the other.

-Nam

I rather think you have missed the pint here, Nam, that for some religious people, healing by prayer is mandated. After all, for those who take the Nt teaching seriously, treating an ill or injured person involves prayer and anointing. The texts offer the hope the god will here the prayers and, in effect, do what is asked. God healing a person of whatever is wrong with them is far better than any doctor could do so, for them, prayer is the right way to go.

Now you and I both know that prayer doesn't work - if there is a god he completely ignores requests for help. The only connection between prayer and action is by chance and nothing else. So if a religious family prayer around the bedside of a sick child we know that unless the child is suffering from something that gets better on its own it is going to get worse and die. Prayer in these circumstances is worse than useless as it doesn't have any effect and could result in a death.

There was a "pint"? Pint of what? Y'all know I don't drink alcohol, why you keep trying to force it on me...I...I...well, okay but just this once.

I'm not missing the point. "mandated" is a part of indoctrination otherwise if it was just something you're supposed to do they'd just break it like they do almost everything else.

It's like saying concrete can grow a tree. Now, I've seen a tree grow out of concrete but did the concrete grow the tree? or was it that there was a crack in the concrete where a tree grew out of? Which one makes sense to you?

Is it that prayer has an effect, or is it that the religion surrounding the prayer that has an effect? the indoctrination, the laws, the holy script, the imaginary god, etc.,?

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.