R/S/E In-Game Tier List Discussion

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I think Treeko actually does quite well with brick break, a move that I don't think has been mentioned. It lets Sceptile sweep the dark E4 and do well against the ice one. With Dragon claw, Sceptile can beat the E4 basically singlehandedly, and the champion too in Emerald. Ice Beam Dusknoir is a pain, but other pokes can deal with it. The massive water regions are good for training, so you can up for lack of training against Flannery.

I recently played Emerald, so I would like to contribute to this thread.
Firstly, I'm not sure which tier to put it in (maybe mid-high) but Geodude/Graveler/Golem deserve a mention. It is a really nice Poke to have if you choose Torchic, because I did, and I ran through all the gyms with only Blaziken/Graveler/Gardevoir. Even if you don't evolve it, Graveler seriously helps against Wattson and Flannery (Magnitude spam) while resisting their moves, and is also good against Norman to hold off Slaking's Facade.
Other details- You get Geodude early, in the Granite cave. While Brawly's Pokes laugh at it, it single-handedly sweeps the entire Mauville/Lavarigde gym. It also gets decent moves early on like Rock Throw (Lv. 11) and Magnitude (Lv. 16).

I recently played Emerald, so I would like to contribute to this thread.
Firstly, I'm not sure which tier to put it in (maybe mid-high) but Geodude/Graveler/Golem deserve a mention. It is a really nice Poke to have if you choose Torchic, because I did, and I ran through all the gyms with only Blaziken/Graveler/Gardevoir. Even if you don't evolve it, Graveler seriously helps against Wattson and Flannery (Magnitude spam) while resisting their moves, and is also good against Norman to hold off Slaking's Facade.
Other details- You get Geodude early, in the Granite cave. While Brawly's Pokes laugh at it, it single-handedly sweeps the entire Mauville/Lavarigde gym. It also gets decent moves early on like Rock Throw (Lv. 11) and Magnitude (Lv. 16).

Geodude's shaky start is a big concern imo since it misses out on a valuable training opportunity in Dewford. Route 109's trainers aren't a good idea either: almost all of them carry a water-type move that'll kill Geodude. It's walking into Route 110 at around Lv10. Geodude really needs some specialised grinding on Route 110/Cycling Road because without Magnitude it might as well get boxed for eternity. He does however become a very big help midgame, because it steamrolls Wattson, Flannery and Winona and can tank Norman (watch out for Faint Attack). After that though... it just kinda slips into obscurity. Mossdeep has special moves flying everywhere and Sootopolis is basically no-entry for Geodude. His tanking ability is severely limited in E4 because there're quite a lot of things that can exploit his weakness (grass, water, ice, special attacks in general), his bad speed doesn't help either (at least Aggron resists like half of these).

I guess mid-tier would be good for Geodude: he's a good choice for midgame segments, but he has a shaky start and after Winona he just stops being useful and starts being detrimental. Aron > Geodude :D

Nominating torkoal for bottom tier.
You can't get your hands on one until a few gyms into the game at which point it is extremely rare. You find numel in the same cave which completely outclasses torkoal. The extremely high defense stat seems intriguing until you find out that very other stat sucks. All it can do is spread statusin a game before SR, shell smash and the physical/special split.

強いだね

Torkoal is not bottom. It's slow, but it has very nice offensive stats, very solid (see: skarmory) defense and decent special bulk. It naturally learns flamethrower and has Curse / Body Slam early on. It is found at a fairly early point (after Wattson) and is not anywhere near as rare as you're making it out to be (a whopping 18% encounter rate). Low or Mid is where it should be put.

Torkoal is not bottom. It's slow, but it has very nice offensive stats, very solid (see: skarmory) defense and decent special bulk. It naturally learns flamethrower and has Curse / Body Slam early on. It is found at a fairly early point (after Wattson) and is not anywhere near as rare as you're making it out to be (a whopping 18% encounter rate). Low or Mid is where it should be put.

My main issue is that Camerupt outclasses torkoal and is more common in the same area.70/140/70 looks great on paper, particularly that early in the game, but what is thr pnt of being bulky if your defensive typing sucks and ur movepool consists of body slam and flamethrower. It doesn't even get a reliable status move. Camerupt learns rock slide, STAB EQ and double-edge. You could bump torkoal up to low, but do yourself a favour and grab a numel.

My main issue is that Camerupt outclasses torkoal and is more common in the same area.70/140/70 looks great on paper, particularly that early in the game, but what is thr pnt of being bulky if your defensive typing sucks and ur movepool consists of body slam and flamethrower. It doesn't even get a reliable status move. Camerupt learns rock slide, STAB EQ and double-edge. You could bump torkoal up to low, but do yourself a favour and grab a numel.

Camerupt also has the same issues: a crappy defensive typing and lack of a reliable status moves. It's also quite crappy as Numel and you have to drag Numel around until level 33 or so. Water spam is common lategame and is something Camerupt and Torkoal both fail in, but Torkoal doesn't suck for 80% of its existence before then.

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!

I'm not sure what the policy is about comparisons with this particular tier list, but I really don't think "Torkoal is Bottom because Camerupt outclasses it" is a good argument. I know that these pokemon don't exist in a vacuum, but how about looking at pokemon on their own merits? We should be discussing what Torkoal is capable of, not why it isn't as good as Camerupt (assuming that's true; I've used Torkoal a few times but I've never used Camerupt).

Camerupt has a decent natural learnset including Rock Slide, EQ and Eruption (you might prefer Overheat though), but has to wait pretty long until its evolution. It's only a little faster than Torkoal when fully evolved, too, having pretty much the same difficulty of outspeeding.

What I like about Torkoal is its moves and its high defence stat. Curse and Protect make it an ideal Slaking counter, and even if you don't learn Protect on time, you can easily take a Facade and then Curse up on its next turn, and sweep the floor with Body Slam afterwards. It also learns Flamethrower naturally (not to mention very early), whereas Camerupt would have to buy the expensive TM at the Casino. The pay-off is immediate and the application is very nice (when facing Norman for instance).

Also, Rock Slide and EQ aren't really the best moves to have in this generation. And being so slow, Camerupt is actually afraid of switching into, for example, Aggron and Metagross (if playing RS) because those are faster and pack super-effective EQs of their own.

Mudkip Line- Superb Choice. Torchic Line- Also an excellent starter.Alakazam- Beast. Best Poke in the game, no questions asked.Zangoose- Why not?Magnemite Line- Why did everyone forget about him? Mag is amazing!Heracross- Why is this behemoth in High? He should totally be in Top.

Why am I here?

Heracross is not encountered until late in the game, after Winona, and at the Safari Zone without a huge chance of catching it, and, being the Safari Zone, it would be fairly underleveled for Tate&Liza. On the other hand, it is extremely powerful with some good STABs and coverage.

Heracross shouldn't even be Mid imo. It's seriously underlevelled for when you get it, the first gym he faces (Winona) is a nightmare for him, and he gets Megahorn at L53. Way too late for T/L, and without Megahorn he's pretty much fodder for them. At best, he is just -generic fighting type- until Megahorn.

Heracross doesn't get any advantage over the next few gyms he has, missing out on vital training opportunities, crucial when he comes really underlevelled. I don't really see the point in using Heracross: he was beast in other games because he came really early and can wreck things quickly with his broken stats, but almost most of your guys should be stronger than him by the time you nab him from the Safari Zone...

Heracross shouldn't even be Mid imo. It's seriously underlevelled for when you get it, the first gym he faces (Winona) is a nightmare for him, and he gets Megahorn at L53. Way too late for T/L, and without Megahorn he's pretty much fodder for them. At best, he is just -generic fighting type- until Megahorn.

Heracross doesn't get any advantage over the next few gyms he has, missing out on vital training opportunities, crucial when he comes really underlevelled. I don't really see the point in using Heracross: he was beast in other games because he came really early and can wreck things quickly with his broken stats, but almost most of your guys should be stronger than him by the time you nab him from the Safari Zone...

Lv. 27-29 isn't really what I'd call low-levelled, and you can catch Heracross at a time when he can easily gain some experience from Team Aqua/trainers (who are numerous in that area).

Indeed, it will never learn Megahorn, but nor does Blaziken learn Sky Uppercut and Swampert will rather take the TM for EQ than wait for it, doesn't mean Heracross will do badly without it. Brick Break is just about all he needs. Give him Bulk Up, maybe Endure/Reversal, and he can sweep those lategame battles all on his own. High tier IMO, he's always done great in my experience, and the RSE elites are all just asking to be mowed by Heracross (dark/ice - only Phoebe is sort of a problem, but you could just use EQ for her).

You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

Torkoal: Mid Tier Definitely NOT bottom. I used it in my very first playthrough of Sapphire and after that I was flat out SHOCKED to learn it sucked competitively when I first hit the scene after how well it did for me in game. It's physical defense is actually slightly higher than Skarmory, though you obviously don't get the same resistances. It has the moves it needs to succeed even without resorting to any TMs (indeed he doesn't get any good TMs so that's a good thing). He might struggle on the water routes, but outside of those he does just fine. Everything has been discussed in more detail already so I won't reiterate it, but seriously he's not nearly as bad in-game as he is competitively.

Magnemite: High tier Really, Magnemite's only downfall is that you have to wait until you're halfway through the game to get it, and that it really, really likes eating up Thunderbolt (though it can use Spark if you feel it has to). It'll evolve pretty much as soon as it catches up to your team, it's fast enough for in-game and has bulk enough (and coveted steel typing) to take a few from those who do outspeed it. And it has significantly more power than Manectric after it evolves (120 vs 105). Really the only reason to use Electrike over it is earlier availability. And access to Bite I suppose.

Poochyena: Low tier Mightyena is pretty much only useful for one thing; its dark typing. Before it evolves, it sucks. After it evolves it's decent for a bit, then starts sucking again. But for facing Psychic types, there's nothing better until Absol, who is rare and not until mid-game. It also dominates most ghost types. These factors means that it's good for Tate & Liza (a big deal in Emerald) and Pheobe, which can be troublesome without a dark type. But since both of these come after you can get Absol... Well it's hard to justify using it.

Shroomish: High Tier Comes early and just when you need it, and gets lots of useful status moves (Stun spore, Leech seed, Absorb) and (for the period) decent defensive stats that make it a great stalling Pokemon. This isn't great for efficient runs, but gets the job done. Can beat Roxy like this. It evolves pretty early at level 23, and gains Mach Punch which absolutely creams everything early game due to Breloom's ridiculous base 130 attack. Just when Mach Punch is getting too weak, it gets Sky Uppercut and goes back to dominating. While its Grass typing might be pretty useless offensively due to its low special and low BP moves, it does provide a useful resistance to Water. Probably the best fighting type you can use if you're not starting with Torchic. Doesn't rip *everything* to shreds though, and sometimes even with Mach Punch that speed and late-game fragility will weigh it down. It also takes a lot of experience to level, but does decently even if it's slightly behind in level. Mostly though a great pick.

Gardevoir: High tierWhile it's not the best early game I think people are hammering Ralts and Kirla a little more than they deserve. It hits well enough with Confusion (and later Psychic) to be of some use, if not exactly a massive asset. And once it DOES evolve, well we've all covered how spectacular it is here.

Lotad: Mid tier Totally agree that it's nearly useless early-mid game. Until it gets Surf it sucks balls. It requires a water stone to be of any real use late game too. It does make a damn good HM slave though...

Zubat: Mid tier While it starts out terrible, it does help against Brawly by sheer virtue of it's 4x resistances and Supersonic. Once it does evolve though it'll almost immediately evolve into Crobat and become a total beast for a while. It drops off somewhat later on but it's always a solid member, even if it never stands out too much. Decidedly average overall.

Makuhita: Mid-High tier A Hariyama was my MVP in my Sapphire Scramble, but that was due to the restrictions on my other Pokemon more than anything else. Overall, it has good bulk, good power and good coverage outside of ghosts in just normal and fighting type attacks. It is somewhat outclassed by almost all the other fighting types though, except in availability. Oh, and as a Makuhita it totally sucks, but it does evolve rather quickly at least (level 24). It won't let you down, but it does start to show signs of weakness towards the end of the game.

Linoone: Mid-tier As an actual battler, it's "OK" at best. It's pretty useful early game due to STAB Headbutt, but has no real advantages against gym leaders or the Elite Four and just overall drops off in power. Its real saving grace is Pickup, which keeps it useful the whole game long.

Wingull: High tier High tier just for general utility all throughout the game. It won't sweep the floor with everything, but it does well overall. It can help against Roxy (it won't win vs. Nosepass' Rock Tomb but can inflict some damage at least) , Brawly, Flannery, Norman AND Tate and Liza, which is great for a Pokemon available so early on. It learns both Surf and Fly, giving it utility in battle and out. Take the time to get Ice Beam from the Abandoned Ship and it can help against Drake in the Elite 4 as well, and it has some advantages against a couple of Steven's Pokemon. Considering how early you get it and how it maintains usefulness throughout the whole game while never being a load, you get one hell of a solid Pokemon.

Alakazam: Top I'll be honest, I haven't used this myself, but I would like to say that a mere 4-6 levels of grinding should not take away from the domination it has later, assuming everyone else is right and Alakazam is as good in RSE as it is in every other game it appears in, the 10 minutes of extra training is worth it. If you're argument is coverage based instead... ok we'll see.

That pretty much covers everything I've used except Torchic and Mudkip (both top obviously, very little argument there). I might play some more of this afterwards (it'll be nice to play some Pokemon without having to record everything I do for once).

Alakazam can't be a top tier because he needs to be traded to be fully evolved but I agree on most things you said, except that I won't use Ice Beam on Wingull, his special is a bit low :( But if you don't have other Pokemon to use it, it's ok ...

what really hurts gardy is that she levels a lot slower compared to alakazam and so she won't be able to net you returns quickly, plus you need to grind from L5 to L22 for CM. abra just needs grinding for half the levels, not to mention faster level gain.

admittedly though if gardevoir was in a better exp. group, she'd be better than zam due to being fast enough (you don't really see much faster than 80), slightly better SpA and thunderbolt access.

it all comes down to whether you just want to get the game done quickly or take a slower pace: zam will come out on top since he gives you returns quickly (fully-evolved pokemon by dewford? fuck yes) while kadabra will still be able to hold its own.

I think Treeko actually does quite well with brick break, a move that I don't think has been mentioned. It lets Sceptile sweep the dark E4 and do well against the ice one. With Dragon claw, Sceptile can beat the E4 basically singlehandedly, and the champion too in Emerald. Ice Beam Dusknoir is a pain, but other pokes can deal with it. The massive water regions are good for training, so you can up for lack of training against Flannery.

IIRC Dark one is not such a problem for Sceptile so much that you must teach it Brick Break(Absol is piss easy. Even Cacturne and Shiftry is relatively easy to handle). Ghost E4 is a matter of use your strongest move over and over again.
Ice One, you better of using Leaf Blade, and even then Walrein sometime failed to be OHKOed. Note that most of the time Leaf Blade simply outdamages Brick Break SE because of 135 BP Special vs 150 BP(lower) Physical.

Dragon E4, dont bother, Dragon Claw did NOT OHKO most of them. If my Perfect IV, full EV Overlevelled Sceptile cant, other "standard" Sceptile which is used for this efficient playthroughs definitely cant.

This NEEDS Shock Wave TM in order to do something useful. It's first STAB move don't come until level 20 with Spark.

Completing(or paying 80 000 in the Casino)the side-quest of New Mauville gives the great TM Thunderbolt.

Electrike is rather fragile and hits a bit weak, however it's fast and strong when envolves which is at level 26.

Also, Shock Wave has an utility of hitting through the ever annoying Sand-Attacks and Double Teams. Shame that Sandshrews are inmune to this.
Because the fact that it can learn Light Screen by TM, it may be more useful against Wallace and Glacia.

Zangoose, needs a bit grinding, but it's a beast. With a Sword Dance boost, 2KO's everything with Slash(or Strength)
When finds a setup bait+Superpotion, Swords Dance three times and KO's entire teams. I fully swept May's full entire team before Fortree using it by using Slash +6 on every pokemon she had, and she had a Mashtomp around 7 levels higher IIRC.
Normally it doesn't ever needs a SD boost to 2KO things with Slash/Strength.
Quick Attack is great for priority, however, isn't too much needed, but priority is never useless and helps when paralyzed.

Solrock, while it's level up moves is shadow(it's only useful Rock Slide and comes at level 37 and maybe Explosion...), however, while it isn't very great, is useful, Rock Throw 2KOes Magma Grunts of the cave in the east of Lilycove. There are also some bird Trainers between Mauville and Fortree.
It has an extra utility in Winona's Gym and Altaria(which has DD and EQ) has almost no options against Solrock(unless Solrock misses Rock Throw a lot)(in my case, CPU was also dumb enough making Altaria didn't attack until it has +6/+6 which is a 2KO with Aerial Ace)
Winona even with the support of a Hyper Potion, her Altaria has no options against Solrock(if Solrock has around the same level)

I just finishes the an emerald scramble and definately think Hariyama should be in High tier. Despite the fact that I pretty much only used Fake Out and Metronome, it still was able to demolish every trainer except Tate+Liza it faced. Its stats, early availability, and general power are really useful. It should be High

I'm surprised people are vouching for Kadabra for top tier in this game. Sure, it has the advantage on Brawley (and even then you have to capture one and baby it to Level 16), but after that Psychic isn't really the best type in-game (especially when the E4 has a Dark, Ghost, and Steel type member). The only other thing it seems to get for coverage is Shock Wave which isn't that great either.

I'm surprised people are vouching for Kadabra for top tier in this game. Sure, it has the advantage on Brawley (and even then you have to capture one and baby it to Level 16), but after that Psychic isn't really the best type in-game (especially when the E4 has a Dark, Ghost, and Steel type member). The only other thing it seems to get for coverage is Shock Wave which isn't that great either.

How is makuhita not top? My level 54 Hariyama soloed the entire elite four. Once you get dive you quickly get earthquake/brickbreak tms, which along with strength and belly drum make it a monster. 1st turn belly drum, bear in mind nothing in the e4 can do 50% first turn to hariyama, and then you can just sweep, as you 1hit everything.