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Re: Desktop Dungeons

Hmm. Right now it looks like we need a good way to teach level buffering and going for bonus xp. You need to do both if you're planning to take down the Super Meat Man as your first boss kill. Just did it now though, so it is definitely possible guys :)

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Originally Posted by Nandrew

@DGM: The brainstorming section is a good source of inspiration, yes. It's also MUCH easier to look at than a whole bunch of forum pages. :P I check up there regularly, even if I don't comment on it. Really nice to see how quickly that wiki has grown, btw.

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Well, of course I only had to post about how I could never beat the Super Meat Man before I turned around and beat him!

Finally did it with a human rogue with the Ironshield god, using a combinaction of Byceps, Lemmisi, 5 health potions, 6 mana potions, a 124 attack rating (counting byceps), first strike and a whooollle lot o' dodge.

I was pretty much wiped out by the end of it... it literally took every single thing I had to finally take him down. Felt really good too :) I guess that's the way it should be!

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Originally Posted by Tropico

Well, of course I only had to post about how I could never beat the Super Meat Man before I turned around and beat him!

Finally did it with a human rogue with the Ironshield god, using a combinaction of Byceps, Lemmisi, 5 health potions, 6 mana potions, a 124 attack rating (counting byceps), first strike and a whooollle lot o' dodge.

I was pretty much wiped out by the end of it... it literally took every single thing I had to finally take him down. Felt really good too :) I guess that's the way it should be!

Good job! The Super Meat Man and Frank the Zombie are definitely more challenging bosses in the early stage of the game. Well done on defeating him with a not-so-crazy god! :D

Originally Posted by Robsoie

- About Super Meat Man -

Any help on how to defeat that kind of boss ? especially now that i notice that every boss hit points are all higher in the normal mode for some reasons, while my warrior is still the same, and the unlocked objects i saw (the poison immunity and the more than extremely rare -20% damage) are not really providing any solid help in that dungeon.

On the snake pit (where the poison immunity would be good, but never appeared at all for me yet), in my most extremely lucky and planned game i only managed to defeat the medusa on the snake pit with a berzerker, but i see no way it could defeat in the same game the Nidhogg considering to defeat the Medusa, already every life and mana potions were exhausted (and i tried to optimise as much as possible my leveling/tile revealing)

So any help to overcome, those to me impossible, obstacles are welcomed.

What an insanely addicting game, can't believe i played that much hours already :D

As dislekcia mentioned, there are some general principles in a successful run. -- Level up quickly by killing high-level monsters, and carefully plan your boss fight so you might level up mid-fight to recover your HP/MP.
The "Gaining Levels" section on the wiki explains how the experience system works: http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/Deskto...hp?title=Level

On a side note, snake pit is a challenge that is more oriented towards magic-heavy characters. With 2 fireballs you can easily take down a high-level gorgon, but the greatest benefits lie in the fact that you don't always have to suffer from poison and weaken effects. Berserker is definitely one of the harder classes to beat this level with, so don't lose heart!

Here's some advices regarding a berserker-snake pit run.
1. Even with a berserker you'll definitely need glyphs to beat the snake pit. Explore the map first and see what glyphs you can get your hands on and what items/gods you can get.
2. A human berserker gains additional damage bonus, but this also means that over time your class trait (+30% damage) becomes less and less useful.
3. It's definitely easier to have a poison immunity item, but it's doable without one (I've only bought a 10% physical resistance item and an extra 1 max HP per level item in this run). You could worship Tikki Tooki, for example, who removes the poison effect after each "perfect" kill. Or worship Dracul like I did so that you may recover health hitting mainly low-level monsters.
4. It's definitely easier to have a first strike glyph, but it's doable without one. Nagas are always painful and you should focus more on other enemies first. My berserker only has 74 on level 9 :(

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Here's a modified tileset I made. My dungeon tiles are less textured and less contrasty than the default set, which I found a little visually distracting. I mostly use flat areas of color, which is why I call this tileset "plainer." Monster images have not been altered.
Below are samples of the snake pit and crypt.
Also changed in this tileset are the glyph images. They are all still recognizably the same icons from the default set, but I adjusted them a little to suit my aesthetics. And I added color coding to a couple: The two glyphs that the Glowing Guardian considers "evil" have red backgrounds, while the two glyphs that Jehora Jeheyu considers to be defensive spells have a blueish background.

2) Do you want the rest of my ideas on the Master/Apprentice glyph system I suggested, or are you going a different route?

Ah, yes, saw that glyph point. To be honest, I'd like to try continuing with the current glyph system for now by addressing imbalances and whatnot over the next few versions ... the M/A approach sounds interesting, but I'd like to see if I can keep the total variety of spells down and still pull things off elegantly.

And sorry, I missed the source code question. A few people have asked about it here and there, but I think that the source won't be released any time soon. I do have confidence, however, that it'll eventually go out.

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Originally Posted by fall_ark

As dislekcia mentioned, there are some general principles in a successful run. -- Level up quickly by killing high-level monsters, and carefully plan your boss fight so you might level up mid-fight to recover your HP/MP.
The "Gaining Levels" section on the wiki explains how the experience system works: http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/Deskto...hp?title=Level

Thank you for the tip.
I have been able to complete the normal mod dungeon with rogue and the wizard tonight using that method (though it has involved lot of luck).

The choice of the deity has a big impact on how possible or impossible this can be.

The thief was able to beat the goblin boss with a mix of fireballs, 2 extremely lucky dodges (Tikki Tooki deity) that if one missed would certainly not have allowed the victory.

The level gaining guide that left lots of lvl 1 an lvl 2 monsters to be killed in 1 hit by my higher leveled thief helped to increase the dodge a bit more than usual.

And the wizard managed to defeat the zombie boss to my own surprise (as it had more than 600 hitpoints) thanks to The Pactmaker and the more than very usefull LEMMISI, he was level 9 with tons of mana potions.
But every of those mana potions had been used in the battle and the wizard was able to kill the boss thanks to the few last healing potion i managed to keep.

But that said, i can't defeat that Super meat man despite several high level characters attempts. It is the only basic boss none of my heroes have been able to defeat.
The nearest breaking point was a warrior that managed to get it down at +/- 120 hitpoints, but was then out of health, potions, glyph and mana to have any chances to finish him.

I hope now with more of the unlock from tonight sessions, there will be some items that will help.
I begin to believe this specific boss monster does not like me at all :D

On a side note, snake pit is a challenge that is more oriented towards magic-heavy characters. With 2 fireballs you can easily take down a high-level gorgon, but the greatest benefits lie in the fact that you don't always have to suffer from poison and weaken effects. Berserker is definitely one of the harder classes to beat this level with, so don't lose heart!

Yes, i noticed the Berserker is litterally shining in magical environment :
I tried the Library i just unlocked with the Berserker and to my own surprise (and always using the levelling suggestions, leaving low level monsters for after being higher one myself), i managed to beat both bosses in my 1st try.
Looking at the Berserker traits, it does not seem to be a surprise, because every enemy is using magical attack, only the Imp did not, but again certainly a lucky day, none of the Imps present on this dungeon were a high level enough threat.

Fantastic superb addictive game, it has been a very long time i had not played gaming sessions that entertaining. Lucky for me i only play at night, i would not dare to try during daytime in the fear i would have to quit my job to unlock even more of the DD content ;)

Thank you so much Nandrew and every other contributors, that's a masterpiece.

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Woot, well I've now finished Normal mode with Fighter, Berserker, Thief, Rogue, Priest Monk and Wizard! Each boss fight has been a photo-finish thing where I almost didn't make it but then did. I know the Rogue beat the Meatman, the Monk beat the Medusa and the Wizard beat the Serpent, but I can't really remember any of the other ones :/

Which brings me to another small suggestion: How about a graveyard?

You know what I mean... that local record of dead characters that Crawl and every other roguelike has, where each character gets a single line summarizing their accomplishments.

Something like:

25010 Tropico the Lv 9 Elven Wizard beat the Medusa in the Normal dungeon.
15200 Tropico the Lv 3 Human Priest was killed by a Warlock in the Normal dungeon.
12310 Tropico the Lv 4 Human Rogue was killed by the Super Meat Man in the Normal dungeon.

and so on.... every time you retire in addition to seeing your summary you can also see the graveyard and where you placed on it. The only weird thing is that they would all have the same name, but, it's a minor detail.

I only mention this because the graveyard is one of my favorite parts of roguelikes in general and I think it would be a good addition to this one too! :)

I do realize you probably already have your hands more than full with the game itself, but it's something to think about for the future.

Re: Desktop Dungeons

This game is a masterpiece. Thank you!

Are you happy with the graphics as they are or would you like people to try and come up with nice tilesets?

Edit: Oh, after reading the last few pages it appears that the tileset turf is plenty covered :*(
Ah well, thanks anyway for the nice game. I might be able to do any other missing graphical elements, should the need arise (and possibly do a few heroes just for kicks).

Re: Desktop Dungeons

You know what I mean... that local record of dead characters that Crawl and every other roguelike has, where each character gets a single line summarizing their accomplishments.

Something like:

25010 Tropico the Lv 9 Elven Wizard beat the Medusa in the Normal dungeon.
15200 Tropico the Lv 3 Human Priest was killed by a Warlock in the Normal dungeon.
12310 Tropico the Lv 4 Human Rogue was killed by the Super Meat Man in the Normal dungeon.

and so on.... every time you retire in addition to seeing your summary you can also see the graveyard and where you placed on it. The only weird thing is that they would all have the same name, but, it's a minor detail.

I only mention this because the graveyard is one of my favorite parts of roguelikes in general and I think it would be a good addition to this one too! :)

Yes, a local/offline graveyard listing would be a very appreciated feature for possible future versions, in my old rogue-like gaming sessions i liked to compare my various character fate (more their sad doomed fate than real achievements he he).

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Originally Posted by Robsoie

Yes, a local/offline graveyard listing would be a very appreciated feature for possible future versions, in my old rogue-like gaming sessions i liked to compare my various character fate (more their sad doomed fate than real achievements he he).

Personally i'd like a small stats page.

EG

In your xxx number of dungeon quests, you have died x times, retired x times. And slain xxxx bosses!

Re: Desktop Dungeons

I'm not going to pass judgment on whether these two glyphs are "imbalanced" or not... not really qualified for that... but I can tell you one thing: they are GAME CHANGERS.

Before, I used to struggle to consistently kill monsters my own level without using up all my resources. Now? Now I won't even LOOK at a monster unless it's at LEAST 2 levels above me. With any class.

Sidestep especially is devastating in its effects. All I need to do is see whether the monster's life is under twice my damage. Whatever else it can do, it will go down. Which means medusas, goats, serpents, warlocks, wratihs, etc. will all eat it from heroes 2 and 3 levels under them.

Which makes it easy to get to level 9 with ample potions to spare, which makes the bosses, well I'm not gonna say easy, but, very doable at least.

So, people who are struggling in the Normal levels: concentrate on getting/beating Warlord and Assassin. It gets better after that :)

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Since we're talking about stats,

I'd like an easier way to see which characters have completed each of the levels. Currently I can only view them one at a time via the "this character has/has not completed the selected level" text in the main menu.

A few possible improvements:

1) Hovering the mouse on one of the game modes highlights all characters which have completed that mode. Possibly mouseovering a character highlights all game modes it has cleared.

2) Score screen with a column for each game mode and a row for each character. In the intersections you could put a tick if the character has completed that game mode. Alternatively you could replace the tick with the best score for that character / game mode combination.

Re: Desktop Dungeons

I'm not going to pass judgment on whether these two glyphs are "imbalanced" or not... not really qualified for that... but I can tell you one thing: they are GAME CHANGERS.

Before, I used to struggle to consistently kill monsters my own level without using up all my resources. Now? Now I won't even LOOK at a monster unless it's at LEAST 2 levels above me. With any class.

Sidestep especially is devastating in its effects. All I need to do is see whether the monster's life is under twice my damage. Whatever else it can do, it will go down. Which means medusas, goats, serpents, warlocks, wratihs, etc. will all eat it from heroes 2 and 3 levels under them.

Which makes it easy to get to level 9 with ample potions to spare, which makes the bosses, well I'm not gonna say easy, but, very doable at least.

So, people who are struggling in the Normal levels: concentrate on getting/beating Warlord and Assassin. It gets better after that :)

Congratulations on the big breakthrough! Onwards to the factory....with a wizard!
Still since you don't always get the specific glyphs (bar fireball and LEMMISI) each game or get them early enough to utilize, there's still great variation in games.
And speak of luck....
Once I have a wizard with Poison, Fireball, LEMMISI and HALPMEH at level 1.
Once I have a warlord with CYDESTEP, Fireball and Firststrike at level 2.
Needless to say, those two games were won very quickly :P

Re: Desktop Dungeons

The thing is that if you want to kill 2 bosses on a map, you have to level (very) fast. To do that, you have to kill higher level monsters than you quite a few times, and to do that, you need to be somehow lucky:
- CYDDSTEP to have 1 more hit
- Fireball (and have 12+ mana)
- Poison spell (or poison sword)
- be very lucky with +Attack runes runes (or god's blessings) and have heal

Re: Desktop Dungeons

The graveyard / stat suggestions are interesting. But I'm going to sort out online leaderboards and score balance before I even look at those sort of things (though I suppose a local highscore board would be pretty cool too).

Originally Posted by Miguelito

This game is a masterpiece. Thank you!

Are you happy with the graphics as they are or would you like people to try and come up with nice tilesets?

Edit: Oh, after reading the last few pages it appears that the tileset turf is plenty covered :*(
Ah well, thanks anyway for the nice game. I might be able to do any other missing graphical elements, should the need arise (and possibly do a few heroes just for kicks).

You know, I AM looking for someone to do a "Rogue classic" tileset if people are interested. It would be cool if various tiles were replaced by graphical representations of ASCII characters and stuff. :)

Re: Desktop Dungeons

If I have an attack value of 76 and the final boss has 31 HP, and if he has an attack of 112 and I have only 1HP left, what is supposed to happen?

I thought that killing the boss at the same time he kills you was supposed to mean victory, but in my last game this apparently wasn't the case--I died without winning. (I have a screenshot, though I don't really have anywhere to post it.)

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Originally Posted by Grumpf

The thing is that if you want to kill 2 bosses on a map, you have to level (very) fast. To do that, you have to kill higher level monsters than you quite a few times, and to do that, you need to be somehow lucky:
- CYDDSTEP to have 1 more hit
- Fireball (and have 12+ mana)
- Poison spell (or poison sword)
- be very lucky with +Attack runes runes (or god's blessings) and have heal

Well, after a while you become to realize that most challenges can be beaten with careful planning and patience -- luck of course still plays a great role, but not always needed.

Snake pit: Magic-friendly as all monsters have special effects. Medusa is killable by about level 7, and with some luck you don't have to suffer many weaken attacks from the nagas. The difficulties often lies in the fact that you can only safely deal with gorgons, while snakes and nagas block your exploration.

Library: Warlocks and dragons have high attack so this could be a little problem. Imps are annoying but since they are not very weak it's in fact quite convenient that you can fireball those who block the roads and they'll go away.

Crypt: Explore explore and explore some more so that the vampires wouldn't have too much life and since you couldn't use the poison glyph. Mana burn could be a bit tricky so you are not always going to earn high exps. I feel this level would require some luck as the zombie boss is quite tough.

Factory: I think we all have a love-hate relationship with animated armours...

Originally Posted by Pumpkinburger

I'm terrible at playing monk and sorcerer, does anyone have any tips and strategies?

The only advanced rune I have access to so far is the poison one, though I have managed to unlock warlord.

With monks you definitely want to choose a human. They benefit the most from damage bonuses because of their starting -50% penalty. I would say explore a bit and try to find bonuses and glyphs to convert. Remember that you only suffer half damage (and rounded down) from any monster and you are good to go. Generally after your first level you should be able to deal with monsters about 2 level higher than you with fireballs and/or battle of attrition.

Sorcerers are a curious bunch. You could go Mystera Annur and blast the dungeon like a wizard, but melee is fine too. Of course you would need some glyphs to properly utilize the class traits. Just remember two things: Attack deals additional "your level" damage, and you heal when using a spell. With the starting 15 mana you can heal 20~30 health any fight. Very useful especially in low levels.
Also, you can play with the priest type first and gain a very helpful glyph by completing Paladin...

Re: Desktop Dungeons

Originally Posted by Speusippus

If I have an attack value of 76 and the final boss has 31 HP, and if he has an attack of 112 and I have only 1HP left, what is supposed to happen?

I thought that killing the boss at the same time he kills you was supposed to mean victory, but in my last game this apparently wasn't the case--I died without winning. (I have a screenshot, though I don't really have anywhere to post it.)

Is this working as designed?

Since bosses most usually have higher levels than you do, they got first strike. And even if you are level 10 they still go first.

Don't worry though. Unlock the Crusader class and have fun -- "I'm going down with you" is like the whole concept of the class. :P