My first attempt at brainstorming for CaNG was along these lines: What "good new deck"? The format is old, and the cardpool rarely changes. Lorwyn is empty and all of it's cards have been discovered. But what about Phyrexian Dreadnought? A 12/12 Trampler is hard to deal with, and surely has some larger place in the format.

So I began working on a Greater Good deck, which aimed to chain Dreadnoughts into fast mana, Berserk, and Fling. After I fiddled with the list, it contained 8 Spirit Guides, Lotus Petals, Berserks, Flings, Kamigawa Dragons, Reanimate, and Mosswort Bridge. Mosswort Bridge opened a potential turn 2 win.

Another synergy within this shell was using Mosswort Bridge to "Hide" a Kokusho or Yosei. You could then cast Dreadnought, freecast the Dragon, and sacrifice them both, which gave a nice big effect (particularly Yosei).

However, when I showed the deck to my friend, we noted that it was somewhat inconsistent and poorly protected. The combo took too many slots, and the few Discard spells I ran didn't win the Threshold match in the least. Around this time, it hit us. Rather than using the Bridge combo to sacrifice Yosei, we could win the game! Two words: Protean Hulk.

Actually, no it's not. Hulk Flash is a combo that recquires the resolution of a 2cc Blue Instant to win the game. MossNought is a two-and-a-half card combo that recquires 1G mana, plus a comes-into-play-tapped land.

The distinction has been made.

III. Strategy

a. The Hulk Win

1. Play Mosswort Bridge, and remove Protean Hulk with the Hideaway ability. For this to work, Protean Hulk must be one of the top four cards in your library, and not in your hand. Mosswort Bridge is tapped, meaning you cannot do anything else until next turn.

How to accomplish: Mosswort Bridge + Protean Hulk is the most tedious, yet safest, part of the combo to set up. Mosswort Bridge does not have a direct tutor, but can be obtained through Brainstorm or Lim-Dul's Vault (LDV). Through LDV, it is quite possible to get both Mosswort Bridge and Protean Hulk, enabling this part of your combo by the next turn. You can also find Protean Hulk via Worldly Tutor, and Mosswort Bridge on the same turn. If Hulk happens to be in your hand, you can use Brainstorm to put it back.

What to watch for: Mosswort Bridge is vulnerable until your next turn. If you are playing against a deck with Wasteland, protection in the form of Stifle or Pithing Needle may be necessary.

2. Cast Phyrexian Dreadnought. Once it resolves, activate Mosswort Bridge without passing priority, and play Protean Hulk for free. Sacrifice both Hulk and Dreadnought to Dreadnought's CiP ability.

What to watch for: Countermagic can play a large part here, because if they want to counter something, it will either be Dreadnought or Hulk. Once you play Hulk, they can Swords to Plowshares either Hulk or Dreadnought. Phyrexian Dreadnought can also be killed in response to the Bridge activation, which will effectively stop you from comboing, so prepare for artifact hate and Swords to Plowshares.

3. Win.

How to accomplish: Upon the resolution of Protean Hulk's leaves-play trigger, search for Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, and Volrath's Shapeshifter. Sacrifice one Dreadnought and Shapeshifter (Hulk) to another Dreadnought. Search for Dracoplasm and Flame-kin Zealot. As Dracoplasm comes into play, sacrifice either one or two Dreadnoughts, and proceed to swing for 25+. If you only have two Dreadnoughts, instead find Tarmogoyf and Flamekin Zealot off of the second Hulk trigger. (First route results in either a 25/25 Flyer, or a 13/13 Trample and a 13/13 Flyer. Second route results in a 13/13 Trample, a big 'Goyf, and a 3/3.)

What to watch for: Swords to Plowshares isn't relevant here for multiple reasons. One, they probably used it earlier on in the combo to prevent the Hulk trigger from going off. Two, you have multiple creatures, and they can only remove one. This part of the combo is vulnerable to graveyard hate. Leyline of the Void stops Protean Hulk from going to the 'yard, and as a result nothing happens. If they play Extirpate removing Phyrexian Dreadnought, fetch triple 'Goyf, or 'Goyf and Shapeshifter (which is a 6/6). If they remove Hulk after you put the Dreadnoughts and Shapeshifter into play, sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other, leaving you with a Dreadnought and a Shapeshifter (Dreadnought).

b. Stifle-Nought

1. Play Phyrexian Dreadnought, then Stifle his CiP ability.

2. Protect it with countermagic, and try to win with a 12/12 beater.

c. More MossNought

1. If you are put in a situation where you cannot remove Protean Hulk with Mosswort Bridge, look for one of these cards instead:

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Dracoplasm
Stifle
Volrath's Shapeshifter

2. Play Phyrexian Dreadnought, and play the hidden removed card. Either sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other, Stifle the CiP ability, sacrifice it to Dracoplasm, or let it die. Any of these will result in a 12/12.

d. 'Goyf Beatdown!

1. Play 'Goyf, and proceed to lay down the beats. Ponder, Fetchlands, and Brainstorm easily pump 'Goyf to a 3/4, Phyrexian Dreadnought makes him a 5/6, and he can grow even larger if aided by countermagic.

IV. Reasoning for Card Inclusion or Exclusion

a. Notable Inclusions

Lim-Dul's Vault: Maybe you've noticed, but Lim-Dul's Vault is quite slow in this deck. In Flash, it could set up your entire combo by the third turn. In MossNought, it will delay you at least two extra turns before the combo is ready. This mostly has to do with Mosswort Bridge: For maximum speed (assuming no Brainstorm), you must draw Mosswort Bridge the following turn. If you then play it, you can remove Hulk, but the other three cards have to go on the bottom of your library, in which case there is no Dreadnought. Lim-Dul's Vault appears to be fantastic at first glance, but is only good in situations where you are trying to play defensively or passively.

Pernicious Deed: MossNought originally had no maindeck answers to a resolved Meddling Mage, Chalice, and so on, and so I figured it had to change. In chronological order, I have played Massacre and Engineered Explosives. Recently both have been outmatched by Pernicious Deed. Deed gets rid of any and all problem permanents, and is even good as a control piece outside of the combo. It also flips for 3cc to Counterbalance, which can counter Krosan Grip.

Stifle: One of the most important cards in the deck. Stifle both enables the Stifle-Nought combo, and gives protection from Wasteland. Additionally, Stifle's not half bad against Storm.

Ponder: Thanks to Breathweapon and Jaynel for suggesting and trying this card out. Ponder is an additional shuffle effect, is a sorcery to pump Tarmogoyf, sets up the top of your library for Bridge, and provides card selection only bested by Vault and Brainstorm.

The Entire Sideboard: Thanks to David Gearhart, the sideboard now transforms into Countertop Stifle-Nought.

Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance: Countertop is amazing against Threshold. Deep6er said it best; when decks board in combo hate, you board in Countertop which creates dead cards for them, and virtual card advantage for you. These cards do not necessarily have to be part of a transformation. For example, I like to board in Sensei's Top against black-based aggro because it prevents my hand from being torn apart. Countertop can even come in as a supplement to the combo.

Hydroblast: With Blood Moon effects seeing more play in both Threshold and Dragon Stompy, this deck needs some kind of answer. Blood Moon blocks all black and green mana sources so it cannot be Deeded. However, Hydroblast can destroy it and be cast with an Island.

Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives: Recurring threats = resiliency. I was debating whether to play this or Volrath's Stronghold, and decided to run Ruins, because we have more access to blue mana than black. Stronghold can recur 'Goyfs, but Ruins recurs EE and Pithing Needle. EE can be blown up a turn earlier and played under a Blood Moon.

b. Notable Exclusions

Worldly Tutor: A very versatile tutor in this combo. It places Hulk in the exact place that he needs to be, and can fetch you a Phyrexian Dreadnought which is the central card in this deck. However, I recently found Ponder as a suitable replacement for this. Worldly Tutor is still a fine addition: it is a matter of preference.

Living Wish: Living Wish can fetch Phyrexian Dreadnought and Mosswort Bridge, in trade-off for the ability to set up Hulk. It is possible to run this along with Worldly Tutor (replacing LDV), but I didn't like the lowered blue card count. By lowering the Bridge/Dreadnought count, it also decreases the number of turn 2 or 3 kills. A wishboard could get interesting with the inclusion of Academy Ruins, but again, in the deck's current state I do not see Wish fitting well.

Massacre: In early testing, I thought Massacre was the best choice of board removal, as I predicted Threshold/w and Fish to be problem match-ups. As it turns out, they aren't so bad, and Engineered Explosives is simply a better card.

Cabal Therapy: Cabal Therapy is another viable piece of protection, that I don't consider necessary for a few reasons. One is that MossNought doesn't run enough creatures to see Therapy's real power. If you can stick a 'Goyf or Dreadnought, sacrificing it is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot and pissing on it to increase the pain. Secondly, in order to get the full effect out of your first few turns, it is better to keep your mana open for set-up. I find Daze much better at this because it never sets you back and will never go to waste.

Other explanations may come later after inquiry or if the decklist changes.

V. Match-ups and Testing

All match-ups are tested in 20 games, meaning 10 preboard, 10 postboard, half on the play, and half on the draw. All preboard hands were kept as if playing against an unknown deck.

a. Rgb Goblins

1. Preboard (6-4)

On the Play (3-2)
On the Draw (3-2)

Goods: MossNought is a bit faster than goblins, averaging turns 3-4, and packing countermagic too. A fast Stifle-Nought can be a gamewinner, and outside of that you don't need to battle them for the combat step. Tarmogoyf is greater than any of their creatures, and sometimes one can even win games on the back of a large 'Goyf.

Bads: Wasteland and Port are MossNought's worst enemy. Having a low land count and relying on a nonbasic, tapped land means that Wasteland and Port are fast, uncounterable disruption.

General: I would say that this match reminds me of Solidarity vs. Goblins. You sit for a few turns, trying to regulate Goblins while setting up. Goblins is simply racing a clock. Any strategy can be used here, really, it's just a question of "is it safe?" Playing a nonbasic before Mosswort may draw out a Wasteland, which is important if you don't have Stifle. Without Grips, they cannot do anything against a Dreadnought, and 'Goyf is excellent in this match-up as well. Goblins is a tempo deck and can win as such, but with proper regulation of their enablers, their mana-denial is not as effective. Goblins should be in your favor.

2. Postboard (still testing)

b. UGw Threshold with Countertop

1. Preboard (6-4)

On the Play (3-2)
On the Draw (3-2)

Goods: Threshold gives you a lot of time to set up. Yet, the best time to try to win is when they are still forming their hand and board position. There aren't really any concrete pros to this match, but with the amount of protection this deck packs, Threshold is actually slightly favorable.

Bads: They've also got a lot of countermagic, which obviously presents so kind of problem. Swords to Plowshares gives them a bit of edge on disruption.

General: Playing vs. Threshold was interesting. The winner was usually decided by whoever played their countermagic more intelligently (aside from drawing the nuts). The games I lost were long and drawn out, where Threshold was able to establish heavy control and card advantage. Some games were won through Hulk combo, and a good number also through Stifle-Nought, though those were typically closer. Lim-Dul's Vault shines in against Threshold, and in cases was more effective when resolved than Thresh's cantrip base. A resolved Meddling Mage is ridiculously hard to play around, and a resolved Counterbalance less so.

2. Postboard (still testing)

c. RG Belcher (1-land)

1. Preboard (7-3)

On the Play (4-1)
On the Draw (3-2)

Goods: Permission is the number one bane of Belcher. Stifle, Daze, and Force were all fantastic here. Empty the Warrens is harder to play around, but gives a couple extra turns, meaning if they choose to combo through Warrens, there is still time to combo off or stick a Dreadnought.

Bads: Sometimes, Belcher simply plays its role, and can win the game without blinking. (It's that fast.)

General: The list we tested with plays 4 MD Pyroblasts, as well as 4 SB Xantid Swarms and 3 SB REBs. I hope that choosing this match-up to test is not considered as monkeying with the match-up percentages; any other combo deck was likely to bring play mistakes. I assume Belcher is one of the better combo match-ups for this deck, as it doesn't have much protection. As far as playing the match goes, reserving permission for large mana spells and win conditions was the way to go. When Belcher combos off, I carefully watch the mana/cards in hand to narrow down his win options, making it easier to predict whether a EtW or Belcher is coming. Pyroblast helped them a little, but I was almost always able to answer it.

2. Postboard (still testing)

d. Red Death

1. Preboard (6-4)

On the Play (4-1)
On the Draw (2-3)

Goods: 'Goyf is usually quite large, and also bigger than most of their creatures. Red Death can't really deal with Phyrexian Dreadnought (outside of Snuff Out).

Bads: Wasteland and Sinkhole wreck the landbase and keep Mosswort Bridge out of play. Hymn and Thoughtseize rape your hand. Red Death has a clear advantage here, outside of being weak to Dreadnought.

General: The results surprised me, but I think this match-up isn't favorable (contradicting the numbers). Early game is hard to control, and an early combination of Thoughtseize + Hymn/Sinkhole can wreck your resources. Playing first gives you the ability to Brainstorm in response to discard, Daze early plays, and play business after their first turn. I usually whipped out countermagic against any resource-threatening cards, and let creature threats resolve. Stifle-Nought is amazing in this match-up, prominently because it is tough to set up the combo here. I realize now that it was folly to not test against Eva Green, which has more answers to Stifle-Nought and a better creature base (sans Magus). I am positive that Eva Green is a worse match-up.

2. Postboard (still testing)

e. Dragon Stompy

1. Preboard (5-5)

On the Play (3-2)
On the Draw (2-3)

Goods: Dragon Stompy has little way to access killing Dreadnought. The combo is not bad here, but usually I found it too slow to set up when early plays include Trinisphere and Chalice.

Bads: Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chalice, Trinisphere. Need I say more? They've got a fast clock and plenty to slow you down. First turn and second turn it was common to see those drops. Moon effects are hard to play around (no way to kill it, only preboard option is Stifle-Nought), Chalice at 1 stops much of the deck, and Trinisphere makes the combo cost 7 mana. Needless to say, any of them will slow you down. I outright lost to a Blood Moon + Chalice @ 1.

General: Daze is incredible here. I Dazed a countless number of spells in this match-up. Dragon Stompy can run out of fuel quickly, so playing defensively in the early game is important. Pernicious Deed is also good, but unless in play when a Moon effects hit, cannot destroy Blood Moon or Magus. However, it is significant in clearing threats, 3sphere, and Chalice. This match-up is slightly unfavorable, because the chance of them drawing a nutty hand completely outweighs your chances of countering it.

2. Postboard (still testing)

VI. Afterthought

MossNought has the ability to consistently win by turns 3-4, and occasionally 5, which impressed me for such a counter-heavy deck. Although there are many ways to hate it, the deck has high resiliency and multiple routes to win.

Thanks to Wobbles the Goose, the Hulk kill has become much more stable and compact. Other options include the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide kill and the Disciple of the Vault kill. The former has low resilience, and the latter has high resiliency but creates an excess of dead cards.

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 07:45 PM

If this combo works, I think you may have broken the format. Also, I know I sound like I'm repeating myself, but have you considered Crop Rotation?

iOWN

01-09-2008, 07:48 PM

If it doesn't work, I'm going to pop myself for not having checked all loose ends. Suspend cards can be played during your upkeep without paying their mana cost, do Hideaway lands work the same?

Edit - Meaning, do you play Hulk after the resolution of Mosswort Bridge's ability? I assumed it works this way because it doesn't say "until end of turn".

...

Edit -
* The land's last ability allows you to play the removed card as part of the resolution of that ability. Timing restrictions based on the card's type are ignored (for instance, if it's a creature or sorcery). Other play restrictions are not (such as "Play [this card] only during combat").

Cavius The Great

01-09-2008, 07:53 PM

The question is, whether Phyrexian Dreadnought stays in play long enough for you to activate Mosswort Bridge. Once you find out if that works, then I think you're in the clear.

iOWN

01-09-2008, 07:56 PM

Yes, because it's a triggered ability (rather than a replacement effect like it used to be), it will stay on the stack until both players have passed priority. You can respond to it by tapping G and Bridge, but I'm not 100% on the "play the removed card without paying its mana cost" clause.

Crop Rotation is good, but untested. I feel like it's too narrow to warrant a spot over LDV or Worldly Tutor, and there isn't much room aside from that.

JDunkin00

01-09-2008, 08:08 PM

First off let me say I love the idea behind this deck. As a pseudo flash hulk but not broken to that extent nice job. I see wasteland and stifle being your number one enemies followed by p needle and explosives for 1. Good luck in the contest.

ACME_Myst

01-09-2008, 08:16 PM

It works, under the current wording of Dreadnought.

It's a triggered ability that you respond to by activating Bridge. You than play the card without paying it's mana cost. I'd say yes to being able to play it at that exact time, much like playing suspended cards like you said.

Isn't wasteland > you? I mean, the idea is awesome, but you may need to think about that.

However, I guess against goblins, the deck that packs the most wastelands, you can just go for the Nought win anyways.

Excellent submission.

Peter_Rotten

01-09-2008, 08:46 PM

Although Wasteland is troublesome, he has addressed the issue clearly and repeatedly mentioning Stifle and Needle.

iOWN

01-09-2008, 08:52 PM

Interesting point on Crop Rotation, I was thinking of it as a land tutor rather than an instant-speed land. I'm pondering whether the loss of card advantage is really worth it. Pithing Needle serves a similar purpose (besides not tutoring and all) but stops Wasteland permanently. But yes, I will definitely test it.

Wasteland is a stumbling block, but it's just like any other kind of disruption. If in a situation where there is really no way around Wasteland, like you said, you can play on without Mosswort Bridge. When I tested against Goblins, Wasteland was one of their strongest cards, but it never ended the game. Postboard, the plan is to bring in Pithing Needles which can hose all of Goblins' removal and mana denial.

And thanks. :)

Deep6er

01-09-2008, 09:09 PM

This deck is FASCINATING. Hearty congratulations on an original concept.

If possible, I'd like to add some ideas that I drew from a similar deck (Flash).

1) I'd consider cutting the 2 Snares, and 2 of the Worldly Tutors for EITHER: 4 Tarmogoyf, or 4 Dark Confidant. I don't think the "randomness" of the 2 Snares is going to have as much of an impact as the four of on either one of those game-breakers. On a side note, don't worry about taking a huge hit from Bob, it's not as huge a deal as others might make it out to be.

2) If you go with 'Goyf, I would highly recommend Deed for the Board. It's solid against a bunch of the hate that you can realistically expect (Jailer, Crypt, Leyline) while also helping because it's a ridiculously good card.

3) I highly recommend you looking into Counter/Top for the Threshold match. I found that those cards tend to be so retarded against them that you can just go 'Goyf beatdown and win.

EDIT: Something that occurred to me while thinking things over was the fact that you could get Bridge's clause simply from having Tarmogoyf's. That card is stupid. Figured that would certainly help to point out.

Volt

01-09-2008, 09:19 PM

.

technogeek5000

01-09-2008, 09:20 PM

I agree with Deep6er about adding confidants. i would run the confidants over the goyfs because the deck realy needs the combo to win and in a metagame where everyone else is playing goyfs to match your goyfs, 4 goyfs wont win you that many games. You would be better off having more ways to find your combo. I would also suggest looking into sensei's top and/or anopther way to get dreadnought (trickbind or vision charm) so you arent as dependant on your hulk kill. I like the deck, i think it is a improvement to both hulk and nought decks because you dont need to rely on 1 particular combo which makes it more consistent.

Mental

01-09-2008, 09:24 PM

I've been testing this deck online.

Basically, it rocks. I've played 2 games so far. I've never comboed out with flash, but in both I got Nought. It won me one, and in the other it was Vindicated while I was holding 2x Spellsnares. I cut those for Confidant, along with a Tutor.

Anyways, this deck is very cool and seems strong, like I said earlier. I'm going to keep testing.

kicks_422

01-09-2008, 09:51 PM

This is perhaps the first CaNGD entry that is both truly original and potentially competitive. Kudos for that.

Amen to that.

I'd go with Goyfs because that would give you more than one way of activating the Bridge. I'd like that over Confidant because it just has bit more synergy with the deck (and no, not just because you play green.)

Excellent job.

EDIT: If you're worried about your KG-KJ combo getting disrupted, you can just go grab 2 Dreadnoughts and sacrifice one to the trigger of the other to keep one in play, plus 2 Goyfs. Or 3 Goyfs. Or 4 Dreadnoughts to keep 2 in play and a Goyf. God, I love this deck.

EDIT2: Why not Benevolent Bodyguard over Vigilant Martyr?

edgewalker

01-09-2008, 09:53 PM

I just goldfished this deck a few times and already I love it. I have to agree adding gofys improves the deck so much, because it acts as an "oh shit button" and always you to just drop a 4 turn clock.

I guess what I would have to say is there are so many outs in this deck without diluting it. A few games I combo'd out and other I stifled a nought, or kiki-jiki'd one and swung two turns, or just dropped a goyf and sat back. I think this might be our CaNG winner.

EDIT: One thing I've found from doing a little testing is dragon stompy kicks in you in the nuts. 8 moon effects + 4 cotv +4 3sphere makes for really hard games. Any thoughts?

iOWN

01-09-2008, 10:27 PM

'Goyf would add another level of resiliency, which may prove worthy of the spots, but in my opinion, Worldly Tutor is the wrong card to cut. Initially I only ran 2 Tutors, and they just didn't contribute much to the deck. I then upped them to four to see how much power they actually held, and I was surprised to see Worldly Tutor being better than Lim-Dul's Vault. The "because I play green" thing was just a joke. I needed the best creature to complete the transformative sideboard, and I just so happened to be playing green.

As for Confidant, I'm not a fan of him in this deck. If the list were more like Steve Sadin's, with MD Countertop, he would look more appealing. 11 4cc+ spells is too much to safely run Bob. He's just a nightmare against aggro.

I love the idea of Countertop in the sideboard. Supposing 'Goyf made maindeck, Trinket Mage would be disposable, and there would be plenty of room.

Edit - I haven't tested against Dragon Stompy at all, because we've been testing through the gauntlet in order. I can imagine it being a rough match-up, and one where it's important to keep their initial threats off the board. Daze is probably good early game, as is Force, so you could try stalling out the early game by countering any relevant hate cards.

Edit - First part deleted. Nihil's response is more coherent.

Nihil Credo

01-09-2008, 10:37 PM

EDIT2: Why not Benevolent Bodyguard over Vigilant Martyr?
Basically, the only things Bodyguard blocks that Vigilant Martyr doesn't are Swords to Plowshares and Smother. However, if your opponent has either of those, he's going to use them on your Hulk or your Dreadnought (respectively) in response to Dreadnought's trigger, so that you can't sacrifice the Hulk and start the combo.

Vigilant Martyr protects your creatures from Red removal without interfering with Kiki-Jiki's ability (and forcing you to wait a turn) like Bodyguard or Sylvan Safekeeper would.

Tosh

01-09-2008, 10:41 PM

I would just like to say that this is one of the most interesting, original and competative decks I've seen in this contest and perhaps the best. This looks to have extreme potential.
I also would like to agree with what other people said about tarmogoyfs and/or dark confidants. Due to the nature of the deck you could sideboard into a slower and more control-ish version as well as a faster and more aggro-ish version so it would be difficult to not only play against but also sideboard against.

BreathWeapon

01-09-2008, 11:30 PM

I'm not certain how competitive it is, but it has to be one of the funnest decks I've piloted in some time. It reminds me a lot of the Ghoul/Dreadnought combo deck, but with a trade off in dead cards.

I wasn't impressed with Daze, it's not difficult for the opponent to keep 1 up, considering the deck telegraphs its combo turn. Most of the time I either wanted it to be a Duress effect to clear the road or a Stifle effect to beat down.

edgewalker

01-09-2008, 11:45 PM

Yes, as I play more and more, I really want daze to be another cheap hard counter, duress/thoughtseize, or trickbind. The only I see with replacing daze with discard is that we'd be running low on blue cards for FoW.

Nihil Credo

01-09-2008, 11:52 PM

As an alternative to Crop Rotation, you could also consider 1-2 copies of Tolaria West. The drawback is heavy and so is the benefit. I wouldn't bet much on it, but I think it's worth trying out.

Pinder

01-10-2008, 12:16 AM

First, I echo what everyone has said about this being the first turly innovative and competitive deck in this contest so far. Lots are either highly original or competitive, but I think this one hits both squarely on the head.

What I really like about the deck is that Dreadnaught, aside from being a combo enabler, is also a backup plan if for some reason you can't combo off. The deck has outs, as well as a super resilient combo that can kill by turns 3 or 4 (I haven't goldfished it yet, but that's what I'm hearing). On that same note, I would also recommend adding Goyf to the maindeck. The combo package is small enough that you can fit him in, and he's just that retarded, especially when you can grab 3 of them for a total face beating if for some reason you can't go infy. Also, 2 Goyfs can equal 10 power, as Gearhart pointed out.

But again, mad props on an amazing idea and deck.

Waikiki

01-10-2008, 05:55 AM

Has cabal therapy been tried (MD) as disruption and an additional sac outlet incase you aren't holding dreadnought?

Also very cool deck!

Artowis

01-10-2008, 06:00 AM

I'm really impressed with this deck so I'll throw in my kudos to the ever growing pile. I initially had a Mosswort Bridge + Dreadnought deck, but hadn't considered anything like using another combo with that one.

My only suggestion is the possible use of Biorhythm in the deck. That was my 'combo' piece with Dreadnought as I'd constantly have 1-2 creatures in play and found I could typically kill or draw with my control opponents.

r0ckstAr

01-10-2008, 07:30 AM

I must say that this entry is really impressive !
I tried to build a nought combo/aggro deck, but it never had neither this resilency nor the hulk/mosswort or the tarmogoyf plan. I'm gonna test it and I consider it as the best entry I've seen in this contest so far :)

Still, I would try replacing Daze by something more consistent like Duress, Cabal Therapy ... I'm not sure about the blue count for fow, but it would leave 11 pitchable cards.

nightbringer

01-10-2008, 08:02 AM

Did you try some discard in this deck?

I really like it by the way, good job

Barook

01-10-2008, 08:03 AM

I agree with the people above me - that's the most innovative (while quite strong) deck so far.

Also, I agree that Tarmogoyf should be in the deck. Back up-plans are always good. Imho, Bob is a no-go in a deck that runs 4 FoW, 4 Protean Hulk, Kiki, Guide and Body Snatcher. The chances of hitting a high CC card are rather high.

Still, I would try replacing Daze by something more consistent like Duress, Cabal Therapy ... I'm not sure about the blue count for fow, but it would leave 11 pitchable cards.
11 Cards are hardly enough to support FoW - even 15 are a critical number.

r0ckstAr

01-10-2008, 09:13 AM

11 Cards are hardly enough to support FoW - even 15 are a critical number.

After some testing, I think you're right although i hadn't noticed it left 14 cards, I forgot 3 LDV.
The main issue with stifle, as far i i'm concerned is that it does'nt help a lot against control, because he's gonna have 1 mana open forever

Lukas Preuss

01-10-2008, 10:25 AM

The deck is very good! Congratulations to creating one of the most creative decks I have seen so far in this contest! With the right amount of work, this could probably become really viable.

Gearhart mentioned the Counterbalance/Top engine, and I had exactly the same thought when I saw your decklist... but I think Sensei's Top might actually have a place in the maindeck, since it has an amazing syngergy with the Bridge. I might take out Lim Dul's Vault for it, since you mentioned that it is actually quite weak in the deck. You might probably be able to cut some of the Lotus Petals for more fetchlands, utilizing Top's awesomeness. This would also free slots in the SB.

edgewalker

01-10-2008, 11:54 AM

If you take out LDV for Top, wouldn't you be a little worried about the number of blue cards that can support FoW. I mean we're already dangerously low, so I don't think taking out a blue card is the best idea, no matter how bad it is. I think maybe replacing LDV with a better blue card might be a good idea.

Mental

01-10-2008, 12:33 PM

The deck is very good! Congratulations to creating one of the most creative decks I have seen so far in this contest! With the right amount of work, this could probably become really viable.

Gearhart mentioned the Counterbalance/Top engine, and I had exactly the same thought when I saw your decklist... but I think Sensei's Top might actually have a place in the maindeck, since it has an amazing syngergy with the Bridge. I might take out Lim Dul's Vault for it, since you mentioned that it is actually quite weak in the deck. You might probably be able to cut some of the Lotus Petals for more fetchlands, utilizing Top's awesomeness. This would also free slots in the SB.

Weak? I've been loving LDV every time I play it. Really, it's the best combo enabler in the deck IMO. If the only combo piece I have is bridge, I can cycle through my deck until I find a 5 card pile with both Hulk and Nought, and arrange them just right. Seriously, I've found LDV to be about on par with Worldly Tutor.

EDIT: If we're worried about the low blue count, what do you all think of a Cabal Therapy/Daze split? A 2/2?

edgewalker

01-10-2008, 12:50 PM

I've been testing ponder in the place of LDV a little. I loved vault, but I wish it was quicker; I also noticed that I wasn't finding my combo pieces quick enough, ponder digs 3 deep to find pieces and it can also set up for bridge. I'm not completely sold on it yet, but I'm just giving it a shot.

Tacosnape

01-10-2008, 03:07 PM

You're definitely in first place in Originality. Fantastic job coming up with a combo that not only has disruption backing it up, but a subcombo in case something goes wrong.

I'll get to testing this soon.

dontbiteitholmes

01-10-2008, 03:18 PM

Tarmogoyf def. belongs in MD, the ability to Hulk out 2 Goyfs and 2 Naughts and just goto beats if your combo isn't possible is just good, not to mention being able to just beat down with hardcasted Goyfs or plying 2 and getting within Bridge range. I like that when you add Goyfs the deck is very viable as both combo and a kind of StifleNaught/beats deck. While the original deck still has the backup of Stifle/Naught I feel the Goyf addition takes the deck to another level. The original list focuses a little too much on the combo, to the point where you almost want to ask the default question of why should I play this over XXXX. It has 4x Worldly Tutor and 3x Lim-Dul's, that's 7 cards that put cards on top of the library, which I think may be a bit too much. LD's are awesome in my testing as they usually find atleast 2/3 combo pieces, Worldly Tutor not so much. Maybe a transformational SB with CounterTop and Confidant is in order, you could fit some of the Tops in the MD, might be good depending on your bad matchups, but would get around troublesome things like Extirpate which you have no answer for and throws a giant wrench in your combo. Anyways just a thought.

Versus

01-10-2008, 04:06 PM

This is gonna be stupid, but I figure I'd say it anyway. What about something that can untap Mosswort the turn it CIP's? Something like Cloud of Faeries or Twiddle (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Twiddle)? Would that help make the deck faster, more resilient, or would using the mana to play said spell (and take up deck slots) just end up making the deck less fuctional?

iOWN

01-10-2008, 04:45 PM

What's not to like about Daze? Honestly, I haven't had any doubts about it, and don't understand why people are looking to replace it. Early game is all about stabilization. It's when opponents will fling all of their disruption at you, and Daze is by far the best counter to it. Force of Will is great, but costs two cards, while Daze will set you back almost none. Both Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize have been tested maindeck, and neither made the cut because with a mana base of 16 lands and 4 disposable sources, they are just too mana hungry (as crazy as that seems). Both Daze and Force can sit in your hand, will never go to waste, and allow you to play all of the set-up that is needed.

Cloud of Faeries would likely be a dead card most of the time, considering that if you don't have fast mana, it wouldn't enable the win until turn 4. Crop Rotation plays the same role, but any untap would add even more cards to the combo, and probably lower consistency.

Mclovin

01-10-2008, 05:20 PM

iOWN and I were the testers for this deck and i am really excited about it. We tested with him playing mossnaught and i was playing the other decks. I realized while playing against the deck how powerful it was and to be honest i was surprises how it won so much. I am not a true legacy player (I play mostly t2) But I still know the meta game and i know how to pilot the main decks. Anyway i want to thank everyone for posting suggestions and good luck with your caNG. (if you are making one)

iOWN

01-10-2008, 05:24 PM

Welcome to the Source. :tongue:

Yeah, "Mclovin" contributed to the making of the deck, and helped me test it. Although he is mainly a t2 and limited player, he plays with me so much that he has a fair amount of knowledge of the Legacy format and can pilot the decks he is familiar with fine.

Willoe

01-10-2008, 05:25 PM

Pretty good idea, indeed. I haven't really much to comment as I can't see what might could improve it. But isn't there a pretty large dead draw % when you're playing so many combo pieces or am I missing something?

Deep6er

01-10-2008, 05:26 PM

Listen, there is seriously nothing to fear about Confidant and this deck. Honestly. I ran Confidant in decks that had an even higher average mana cost and would rarely take more than 3 damage. You know why? Two reasons:

1) He dies. Really easily.

2) You have LANDS. You also have BRAINSTORM. You also play a lot of spells at the 1 and 2 slot.

In all seriousness, why are you afraid of Confidant? You might flip a 5, but you're more likely to flip a 2 or less. Incidentally, I'd really look into cutting the Worldly Tutor (which I still believe is the worst card in the deck, to up the number of Lim-Dul's Vaults (which also has synergy with Confidant) to move Tops into the main and free up slots for Confidant in the board. If I can pick up the cards for this, I might want to play a similar build at the Running GAGG. If I'm able to, I'll post up here what I played, and how I did. In reality, this is probably the front-runner for the deck choices available. Again, props to iOWN for a truly fascinating deck. Sir, I owe you a high-five.

BreathWeapon

01-10-2008, 06:22 PM

After messing around, I found the weakest cards to be Daze, Worldly Tutor, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide and to a certain extent the 1cc protection creature.

The disruption package needs to be more pro-active, while Force of Will and Stifle are enough to stop combo, the deck has an awful time dealing with the opponent's removal suite. I'd recommend Cabal Therapy in order to prevent the opponent from stock piling Swords to Plowshares and to provide an outlet for Protean Hulk.

Worldly Tutor, I think, is better as Ponder. You lose speed, but you gain consistency, making it a reasonable trade off.

Acceleration in this deck is either hit or miss, most of the time I wished the acceleration was land instead. Accelerating a Lim Dul's Vault into a Force of Will or Daze was a painful experience.

The protection creature is SB material, either the opponent removes the Dreadnought or he doesn't remove the Dreadnought and the game is over. Even against burn, the deck can just resolve a Dreadnought and use the attack phase.

I'd run 4 Lim Dul's Vault and a Wipe Away, Lim Dul's Vault is the work horse of this deck and Engineered Explosives @1 is a serious problem.

I wasn't too impressed with Tarmogoyf or Balance/Top, I think they'd be excellent SB options, but they get in the way of the MD and going off.

One card people are over looking is Sylvan Library, that card is a tailor made bomb for this deck. It's either Brainstorming, generating card advantage or setting up Mosswort Bridge, which are all ridiculous.

Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold were also reasonable inclusions considering both of them set up Mosswort Bridge and gave the deck some endurance.

All in all, I found the deck getting stronger as it got slower and more consistent. I was usually winning by turn 4, which is still pretty reasonable. It really feels like a paper tiger at times tho', considering the combo is vulnerable to almost every form of removal imaginable.

While this only frees one slot, dracoplasm and shapeshifter both allow you to cheat 12/12's into play, either by playing dracoplasm off mosswort in responce to Dreadnaught's citp ability, or by playing shapeshifter, then playing/discarding a dreadnaught.

Just so everyone's clear, when you sac the hulk and dreadnaught to start the combo, you stack your graveyard with the hulk on top. Find Shapeshifter(copying hulk), Dracoplasm and a Dreadnaught. Sacrifice both to Dracoplasm to make it an 18/18 and hulk again. Find Acolyte and, if you haven't seen them, two dreadnaughts. Acolyte makes Dracoplasm a 20/18. Swing. If you are worried about flying blockers or want a protection creature in the main, benevolent bodyguard fits both roles neatly.

technogeek5000

01-10-2008, 08:43 PM

I actualy like that. But i would play flamekin zealot over acolyte so both creatures get haste and you have 2 13/13 trampling hasty creatures. You bring in plasm, shapeshifter and zealot, sacrifice the nought in play to plasm and since nought is on top shapeshifter is a 12/12.

Edit: And you could also play kira great glass spinner for protection. It counter the first spell that targets a creature a turn and its blue so you can pitch it to FOW.

Edit 2: Lol and then you could call the deck Death note. Oh and Iown i like your avatar. Its Ryuk from Death note right?

Mental

01-10-2008, 10:18 PM

A few things:

Has anyone considered Misdirection? It seems like a strong alternative to Daze, if people are still looking for one.

I really, really, like Tarmogoyf in this deck, just because it is excellent counter bait. It almost always gets countered, if my opponent can counter it. Which is useful.

I agree with Breathweapon that LDV > Worldly Tutor. I think I'm upping the LDV count to 4, and the Tutor count is down to 2. I will test 2x Ponder in this slot, though.

I'm cutting the ESG for an Academy Ruins. I also never really liked the acceleration. This deck isn't Hulk Flash.

I guess I'll test lands in place of Lotus Petals. Maybe City of Brass? I noticed I often had black when I needed green and green when I needed black. But first I'll try upping the Seas and Trops to 4 each.

This is going to be a lot of testing to do. I'll get back to you guys.

Wobbles The Goose

01-10-2008, 10:21 PM

I actualy like that. But i would play flamekin zealot over acolyte so both creatures get haste and you have 2 13/13 trampling hasty creatures. You bring in plasm, shapeshifter and zealot, sacrifice the nought in play to plasm and since nought is on top shapeshifter is a 12/12.

Edit: And you could also play kira great glass spinner for protection. It counter the first spell that targets a creature a turn and its blue so you can pitch it to FOW.

I thought of zealot too, but the math doesn't work as well. When you mossbridge in hulk, you have to sacrifice both hulk and the naught that you played because of naught's citp ability. So you have no creatures in play when hulk's ability resolves. Then you can't search for plasm, shapeshifter and zealot because they have a total casting cost of 10, and even if you could you don't have a naught in play to sac to plasm. Searching for Plasm, Shapeshifter, Naught is the proper 6 cmc total, that then allows you to search again when you sacrifice the shapeshifter copying hulk. At that point you could go grab Zealot, Naught, Naught and attack with two 13/13's, but then you don't have "mana" left to find a 1 mana cost protection creature and you have to have two naughts left in the deck (which isn't guaranteed, and if you don't have them, it means that you are only attacking whith a 13/13 and maybe a 3/3). I've been randomly frustrated by sea drakes/tombstalker enough to think that benevolent/zealot is probably the proper configuration. Giving your plasm problue then swinging past is a trick kira doesn't have. You might be confused by the fact that Dracoplasm (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/341.html) doesn't have trample, making blockers problematic.

Neat fact is that this is a lot more resilient because burn doesn't do anything to the combo. Tormod's crypt is basically worthless too, because even if they figure out that crypting in response to the first hulk trigger is correct (crypt doesn't do anything after that point because they can't respond to dracoplasm entering play), you are still left with either a 14/12 hasty flying dracoplasm and a 2/2 or a 12/12 dracoplasm and a 12/12 shapeshifter copying a naught.

Edit:
iOWN: I'm not that good at smash. Honk, Honk, why it's Wobbles, the goose! (http://www.themadmusicarchive.com/song_details.aspx?SongID=28063)

iOWN

01-10-2008, 10:41 PM

The disruption package needs to be more pro-active, while Force of Will and Stifle are enough to stop combo, the deck has an awful time dealing with the opponent's removal suite. I'd recommend Cabal Therapy in order to prevent the opponent from stock piling Swords to Plowshares and to provide an outlet for Protean Hulk.

As stated earlier, I found pro-active disruption weaker than any countermagic. It is definitely manageable, but only if you are willing to sacrifice speed in exchange. Cheap counterspells are much more reliable. They allow you to combo at full speed, and don't have to be used until you know it's necessary. By playing Cabal Therapy, there is always the chance that you've just created a semi-Time Walk for the opponent. The more turns you waste, the more time they have to find answers.

Worldly Tutor, I think, is better as Ponder. You lose speed, but you gain consistency, making it a reasonable trade off.

Acceleration in this deck is either hit or miss, most of the time I wished the acceleration was land instead. Accelerating a Lim Dul's Vault into a Force of Will or Daze was a painful experience.

Worldly Tutor vs. other set-up is a matter of what feels most comfortable. Worldly Tutor has been doing its job for me, and currently I feel it is one of the strongest cards for the spot.

I fully agree on acceleration. It is a burden when you draw Lotus Petal instead of a needed mana source, but the slight speed boost it gives is worth the chance. Outracing Goblins, and being able to actually threaten other combo are both pluses.

I'd run 4 Lim Dul's Vault and a Wipe Away, Lim Dul's Vault is the work horse of this deck and Engineered Explosives @1 is a serious problem.

How is Wipe Away better than Engineered Explosives? EE can get rid of any Chalices or other EEs, Pithing Needle and basically and board control that this deck is stopped by.

Please trust me on Daze. The card is the best option after Force. Misdirection has already been tested, and was much too narrow to be of use in the maindeck. Many of the spells that give this deck troubles are permanent, and then Misdirection becomes useless. Daze is never dead. And Mental, if you are looking for a wider land base, I recommend upping the number of fetches instead. That would probably help more with the color fixing.

Wobbles: That's awesome. Thank you so much. It's funny, I was actually thinking of a kill with Dracoplasm and three Noughts, but could never find a way to give it haste. Volrath's Shapeshifter is decent indepently in this deck because you can cast it outside of the combo, and drop a Nought to make a 12/12. It also would give an alternate way to trigger Hulk, which is pretty cool.

technogeek: Kira seems sideboard worthy, and could be a utility creature over Acolyte against a slower control deck when you want to protect your creatures rather than win fast. And yes, it's Ryuk! And no, the name stays. :tongue:

Deep6er: Dark Confidant can already fit in the sideboard. A full Countertop sideboard (with Pithing Needles) sounds neat, will test. Definitely a stronger transformation than what I've got going now, and doesn't mess with the combo whatsoever. A reason I am having doubts about maindecking Confidant is that without enough library manipulation, not only is he dangerous, but you risk running right through your combo pieces. Bob also makes it more difficult to rig Mosswort Bridge because EOT Worldly Tutor/Brainstorm will result with the Hulk right back in your hand. Point taken about Bob dying easily, and both Tarmogoyfs and Confidants are good ways to draw out removal or counters.

Edit - After a few goldfishes, I can say the Dracoplasm combo is working beautifully. I was worried that drawing a combo piece with no brainstorm would wreck the combo, but it doesn't. If I draw Dracoplasm, fetching Shapeshifter, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Bodyguard gets 2 12/12's with protection. Or, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Acolyte, Bodyguard can win the next turn also. And as pointed out earlier in the thread, if worst comes to worst, double 'Goyf and a permanent Dreadnought is always good.

Edit 2 - Wobbles: Ah, I see. None of the above. :P

To recap, this is what my list looks like at the moment after all suggestions. After further testing, it may be subject to change.

If black splashis only needed for vault why not play long-term plans instead? It does not look like you want to stack your topdecks.

Just trying to understand well the tricks of the deck:
What are your answers to the following situations:
- meddling mage on dreadnought
- chalice@1
- EE@1 into play
- leyline of the void
- needle on mosswort bridge

Why do you prefer the bodyguard to the safekeeper? Both are a bad protection to shapeshifter so I d'ont see the point, except that safekeeper protects against maze of ith too and can be activated 2 or 3 times. As a consequence, it should be better. Maybe I got it: you're afraid to face a flying blocker equiped with a SoFI?

It looks a lot like the Cephalid Breakfast deck: it's highly disruptable by every hate card of the format (leyline, needle, magus, stifle, wasteland, FoW, anti-creatures, bounces, EE, deed, counterspells, ...) but it can pack also a lot of consistency elements and some protection. I'm still not sure of its differences with CB (pros and cons).

Once more, pros to you about the idea but I'm not as enthousiastic as the other posters with the actual proposed combos because I think that even if it can makes the surprise now, it's too much easily disruptable by the regular hates. Please tell me I'm wrong.

BreathWeapon

01-11-2008, 12:52 AM

The problem with Daze is that the deck is too slow to use it as a disruption spell, there's nothing to prevent the opponent from keeping 1 open to protect his hate, especially Tormod's Crypt.

Wipe Away is an instant, Wipe Away is blue, Wipe Away is uncounterable, Engineered Explosives can be Pithing Needled, Engineered Explosives can be Krosan Gripped, Engineered Explosives destroys your permanents to. I imagine you can use either card, but Wipe Away is guaranteed to resolve where Engineered Explosives is not. If I'm going to take the time to find an answer, then that answer had better resolve.

The Shapeshifter/Plasm combo is incredible, it increases the Force of Will count, it increases the Phyrexian Dreadnought count with Bridge of Moss, and it can be used to circumvent hate as 2 Dreadnoughts with two different cc and protection. It gave the deck a huge boost in actual game play, which is saying a lot.

Wobbles The Goose

01-11-2008, 04:10 AM

BreathWeapon, I agree with a lot of your comments on the weakness of engineered explosives, and 1x stern proctor suppliments 1x wipe away to provides a tutorable way to solve things like explosives or deed. Plus, it randomly solves the enchantress matchup by bouncing confinement durning the combo. Something to think about.

I also agree that the tarmogoyf plan is underwhelming. I personally like good ol' psychatog (2x). I've never killed anyone with him, but he holds the ground reasonably well and works well with shapeshifter (also 2x).

If black splashis only needed for vault why not play long-term plans instead? It does not look like you want to stack your topdecks.

Long-term plans only finds hulk, and it can only be cast on turn 3. Vault is a turn earlier and can find both a hulk and a bridge, or a hulk and counterspells. That said, I'm definately tempted to try to replace vault with Top and daze with cbalance, but Vault is really good.

Just trying to understand well the tricks of the deck:
What are your answers to the following situations:
- meddling mage on dreadnought
- chalice@1
- EE@1 into play
- leyline of the void
- needle on mosswort bridge

For all of those hate, you either shift strategies to tarmogoyf/psychatog/shapeshifters-hulk-naught or you start digging for wipe away/stern proctor. I've really been impressed with the shapeshifter back up plan and I recommend running more then just the one you need to combo off, especially if you have psychatog to remove cards on top of the big creatures.

Why do you prefer the bodyguard to the safekeeper? Both are a bad protection to shapeshifter so I d'ont see the point, except that safekeeper protects against maze of ith too and can be activated 2 or 3 times. As a consequence, it should be better. Maybe I got it: you're afraid to face a flying blocker equiped with a SoFI?

Mostly a metagame call. It comes down to fearing flying creatures or Maze of Ith. If your opponent has Swords to plowshares/an elemental blast, and you don't have a counter, the dracoplasm is dead with the second hulk trigger on the stack before either creature comes into play. Safekeeper probably edges it out because it can protect a dreadnaught.

ACME_Myst

01-11-2008, 05:42 AM

Honestly, I don't see a problem with running zealot. Please tell me why this won't work:

or, if you need protection, or don't have 2 naughts left in your deck:

2)
flamekin zealot
benevolent bodyguard

then beat face for 23 protected damage

Wobbles The Goose

01-11-2008, 07:04 AM

That works just fine.

technogeek5000's post seemed confused (dreadnaughts in play when they shouldn't be), so that's what I was commenting on.

The first variation works fine, although your opponent having creatures in play to block/removal can lead to akward situation where the dreadnaught/zealot duo only hit for 16 (Maze of Ith, instant speed removal). The second variation provides the same protection critter as the Acolyte combo, so the difference is obviously pretty small. The (slight) advantage of Acolyte is that on the second trigger you can find (Benevolent Bodyguard/Safekeeper)+(Acolyte)+(2xDreadnaught/Tarmogoyf), so that if your opponent wipes away/maze of iths/blocks your dracoplasm, you've got another big beefy creature to attack with next turn.

Side note, the fact this kill doesn't work in t1 with flash makes me sad.

Happy Gilmore

01-11-2008, 11:44 AM

I love this deck!

As Deep6er mentioned Goyf would be stupid good in this deck. If only for the reason that you can go:

Hulk> triple Goyf when they remove your win conditions. The other suggestions are also fantastic. Deed is incredible SB.

Stifle/Naught is good by itself. Not to mention the versatility of Stifle anway. if you cast an early Naught it adds both creatures and artifacts to Goyfs power, with instants, land, sorceries filling in the rest of it you can activate bridge on their power alone...how cool.

But everyone seems to be forgetting one very very good card for this deck:

By cutting the kiki combo all together you are increasing the deck's resiliency to gy hate by using cards that are good by themselves (Goyf) and still have a one turn kill that is not subject to random removal.

spider900

01-11-2008, 01:05 PM

I found myself really happy with replacing 3 Worldly Tutors and 4 Lim-Dul's Vault from iOWN's list with 4 Worldly Tutors and 3 Sensei's for the following reasons:

1) SDT is a first turn play and this deck wants to play a tutor card as early as possible in game. In most cases, Worldly Tutor is superior to SDT in finding Combo pieces that's why I'm playing the 4-3 split.

2) Because of these change(s) I recognized that the 3 Underground Seas were only useful when siding in Bob, so I decided to cut the black splash and making the Manabase a lot more stable while trying to make the manabase most optimal for SDT. So I replaced the 3 Underground Seas with 3 Flooded Strand to create as many shuffle effects as possible.

3) Because of this change(s) there's a lot of room in the Sideboard left and it feels a lot easier to side in Counterbalance. Until now, I didn't waste thoughts on the free Sb slots.

After some testing with the modified list I was really surprised, 'cause I was able to combo out constantly on turn 3-4, with winning constantly, belonging to the board situation, on turn 3-5.

Cheers, Spider

iOWN

01-11-2008, 04:45 PM

If black splashis only needed for vault why not play long-term plans instead? It does not look like you want to stack your topdecks.

Just trying to understand well the tricks of the deck:
What are your answers to the following situations:
- meddling mage on dreadnought
- chalice@1
- EE@1 into play
- leyline of the void
- needle on mosswort bridge

The answer to any of them is either permission or Engineered Explosives. Those cards are general hosers to any combo deck, but this deck has a higher amount of protection than other combo decks. Most of them can be played around, simply by going for StifleNought (and maybe 'Goyf) instead.

Why do you prefer the bodyguard to the safekeeper? Both are a bad protection to shapeshifter so I d'ont see the point, except that safekeeper protects against maze of ith too and can be activated 2 or 3 times. As a consequence, it should be better. Maybe I got it: you're afraid to face a flying blocker equiped with a SoFI?

Yes, Bodyguard will allow you to win on that turn, even if they have a blocker with Flying. Again, Swords to Plowshares would have been used beforehand, so the aim is not protection, and unlike the other combo, this one is basically immune to burn. Bodyguard is "just-in-case" protection, and gives Dracoplasm evasion.

It looks a lot like the Cephalid Breakfast deck: it's highly disruptable by every hate card of the format (leyline, needle, magus, stifle, wasteland, FoW, anti-creatures, bounces, EE, deed, counterspells, ...) but it can pack also a lot of consistency elements and some protection. I'm still not sure of its differences with CB (pros and cons).
Once more, pros to you about the idea but I'm not as enthousiastic as the other posters with the actual proposed combos because I think that even if it can makes the surprise now, it's too much easily disruptable by the regular hates. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Here's an example: if you are being clocked by a Goyf and can't possible get the cards to combo off next turn, Stifling a Nought will probably turn the game around. This deck has many routes to win, but can still consistently set up the combo by early-mid game. Again, those hate cards will have some effect on any regular combo deck in the format, but with protection, resiliency, and options, none of them can really stop you.

BreathWeapon: Daze isn't disruption, it's protection. If your opponent can drop a Chalice @1 on the first turn, they will do it. Daze answers any early game threats with no drawback. If your opponent has to play around Daze, it's already doing its job. If your opponent plays around Daze and you have additional protection, you've outplayed them. You can cut Daze for discard if you want, but my experiences with Thoughtseize or Therapy often resulted in me wincing because they ended up doing absolutely nothing.

Wipe Away vs. Explosives: Seriously, when are they going to Pithing Needle Explosives over Bridge, or waste their Krosan Grip when they need it for Dreadnought? Explosives destroys multiple permanents, Wipe Away is a one time deal. Explosives would only need to be used if you're not winning, so there is little reason to worry about destroying your permanents. I can see that Explosives has a small amount of dissynergy with the SB, but is that enough of a reason to run a less effective card over it? Wipe Away usually has to be casted on the same turn, meaning you need 2UUG and an untapped Mosswort Bridge to combo off, and that is nearly impossible to acquire at any relevant time in this deck.

Happy Gilmore: Then there wouldn't be much of a reason to run Hulk, when it could instead be replaced by Darksteel Colossus or something that is completely immune to hate. Hulk gives you an instant win. Tarmogoyf + Dreadnought is a good back-up play to the new Dracoplasm combo, but it's less effective because it takes at least two more turns, and that is if they don't draw an answer.

BreathWeapon

01-11-2008, 04:55 PM

I don't think Engineered Explosives is more or less effective than Wipe Away, it's just a personal choice, but don't fool yourself, your opponent can easily draw 2 Pithing Needles etc. or counter the Engineered Explosives. I don't find 3cc difficult to resolve with lands instead of Lotus Petal, I'll deal with Goblins post board.

Protection or not, Daze isn't resolving threats, and this deck needs disruption in order to do that against Threshold. Cabal Therapy has been vital to my win percentages so far.

Those 2 Dazes look pretty damn random. :rolleyes:
How are you surviving without one basic land?

nightbringer

01-12-2008, 10:28 AM

they are kinda random and i stil need to find something thats better.
I need something blue of cc2

FredMaster

01-12-2008, 10:52 AM

Nope.
The Card "Daze" is inherently made to play it as a Playset or just NOT.
You want to have it early or not. In the Lategame it's only a Force pitch-in.
Therefore it is not even necessary to play them if you have not enough space for a full Playset.
Daze in general is absolutely ok and right in that deck.

they are kinda random and i stil need to find something thats better.
I need something blue of cc2

Hmmm... Counterspell, Remand, trickbind, boomerang all come to mind. Most benificial to this deck would be trickbind or counterspell.

FredMaster

01-12-2008, 11:21 AM

The Card "Daze" is inherently made to play it as a Playset or just NOT.
You want to have it early or not. In the Lategame it's only a Force pitch-in.
Therefore it is not even necessary to play them if you have not enough space for a full Playset.
Daze in general is absolutely ok and right in that deck.

:rolleyes:

Finn

01-12-2008, 11:46 AM

How are you surviving without one basic land?
He isn't surviving. When you consider that the moss land can't reliably come into play unless you already have the combo set up, that means that he only has 14 actual no strings attached mana sources. Even Threshold doesn't try anything like that.

Tell me again how this is not a 3+ card combo. I count:
1. Dreadnought in hand
2. Mosswort Bridge in play, untapped, with Hulk under it
3. A way to sac the Hulk

-I don't see a single way to sacrifice the Hulk in Iown's build unless the single Carrion Feeder is already in play when it resolves. Am I missing something?
-It requires a lot of setup. (Mosswort in play for a full turn, Hulk in the top four cards)
-Wasteland kills the Mosswort thing
-Certain gy hate cards can end the combo, depending on the win condition

With so many cards required and so many bottlenecks, I am betting that the fall-back combo is better than the main one. If that is so, why do I care about this deck?

EDIT: On the constructive side, Mask of the Mimic could be good. You can respond to a Dreadnought killing itself by saccing one of your pecks to get another Dreadnought. Ordinarily, this would not be spectacular (3 to 1 card disadvantage if it is countered), but you can also sac a Hulk, targetting an opponent's creature (which you will never find in your own library), just to get your combo off. Much like Flashing back Therapy, this can NOT be countered.

edgewalker

01-12-2008, 11:51 AM

Dreadnought is the way to sac hulk. So it's only a 3 card combo.
It's:
1)Dreadnought in hand
2)Bridge in Play
3)Hulk Under Bridge

See the thing to remember is that when you play nought, you activate the bridge then sac the hulk to the citp ability. So the noughts play two roles.

Finn

01-12-2008, 12:11 PM

Thanks, Edgewalker. The discussion makes more sense now. So we are talking about a 3 card combo. That's not too shabby.

I think I would not count the Mosswort Bridge as a land from a design perspective.

edgewalker

01-12-2008, 12:28 PM

Not at all, I was confused when I first started testing why I wasn't getting enough lands, and then it dawned on me that we're actually play 14-16 lands since the bridge comes in to play tapped and is almost never used for mana.

Finn

01-12-2008, 12:33 PM

So we are saying the same thing here. The design looks good. The mana supply looks bad. Mosswort Bridge is not a land in this deck.

Mclovin

01-12-2008, 12:48 PM

Yes But don't forget that this deck can only win with hulk; If playing against gy hate, it will simply just try to stifle a dreadnought. Post board against a deck with allot of gy hate, it will simply board out the 8 combo pieces and a few other cards to bring in counter/top and the confidants. Also if u are afraid of wastleland being a big factor post board, then u bring in the pithing needles. Many opponents will bring in gy hate and they will have dead cards in there deck (Even though it does affect tarmogoyf, but that is not a big deal) it will not be a problem. What you try to do post board is set up allot of card advantage (through the confidant, top etc) and eventually go stifle on a naught. If they don't have any gy hate down than u can hold them off with tarmogoyfs. As iOWN and i were testing the deck, it does not have a hard time post board with gy hate. IF they are playing gy hate preboard, then it will be harder because u have a lot of dead cards.

About the mana issues. Our current manabase has allot of issues and we are trying to fix that. We are still testing the lotus petals to see if we need acceleration more than consistency. if you are to cut the petals i recommend running more fetches and less duals to help with, preboard brainstorms and postboard countertop and confidant

If u have anymore suggestions post them. We would appreciate it

edgewalker

01-12-2008, 12:57 PM

Oh I agree, that is the beauty of the deck, it has the most potential for a transformational sideboard. I've been doing the same, come game 2, I'm playing stiflenought with countertop, not a combo deck.

But yes as of right now, I'm playing 21 lands including bridge and it's been working well. With the amount of digging we have in this deck I think we can go as a low as 17 lands.

nightbringer

01-12-2008, 01:24 PM

He isn't surviving. When you consider that the moss land can't reliably come into play unless you already have the combo set up, that means that he only has 14 actual no strings attached mana sources. Even Threshold doesn't try anything like that.

I never had much problems with my mana, i suggest you try the deck before stating that i dont survive on the current manabase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbringer View Post
they are kinda random and i stil need to find something thats better.
I need something blue of cc2
Hmmm... Counterspell, Remand, trickbind, boomerang all come to mind. Most benificial to this deck would be trickbind or counterspell.

I have been playing trickbind at the moment but there is a chanse these will become lands should i encounter problems with the manabase

Mclovin

01-12-2008, 01:38 PM

EDGEWALKER: Are you playing lotus petals along with the 25 lands, or did cut them?

edgewalker

01-12-2008, 01:48 PM

I cut them, I feel stability is far more important than speed with a deck like this. The mana base I'm playing looks like this right now:

I'm still about leery about the 1 forest and 2 heaths but I felt being able to find G against decks that played non-basic hate was important game one trying to go off and playing goyfs, but also games 2 and 3 when we switch to a more aggro control route.

Mordenkain

01-12-2008, 02:00 PM

Guys, guys. You are trying to hard. Sure this deck concept is original and have a good potential of getting strong, but one thing to consider: What makes this stronger than playing some stripped down variant of cephalid breakfeast?

Heres a decklist I have lying around, it runs a 2-card I-WIN combo along with stifle-naught:

Other than the included goyfs in MossNaught, why is this deck so hyped up? Don't get me wrong, I love the creative thinking in here, but I just don't see why it's supposed to be so good. But maybe im wrong (most likely actually), but I just don't see it. Anyone care to enlightened me?

iOWN

01-12-2008, 02:41 PM

Other than the included goyfs in MossNaught

Breakfast usually will have 'Goyfs, and not Stifle-Nought. I think that's a more important point of comparison. I can't talk about Breakfast because I'm not experienced with it, but I can see that's regularly one advantage.

Comparing it to your list, I can say another thing: Where is the resilience? Although you have a lot of protection, you've dropped Vial and alternate combo pieces, can lose outright to graveyard hate, have more dead cards, and have greater vulnerability to removal. With the current win combo (Dracoplasm), Mossnought can completely ignore graveyard hate, and can still function independent of the combo.

I think it's unfair to call this deck a "stripped down version of Breakfast". What's stripped down about it? Although the two can definitely be compared, I don't believe you can take one deck and say that it's strictly superior. Both decks have advantages, but this deck is still in the testing stage. Comparing a new concept to current Tier 1/1.5 decks stifles creativity and keeps the metagame stagnant.

nightbringer: For what specific reason don't you play basics? I rarely get screwed by color, because the deck doesn't really have many color requirements.

Fetches and basics > lots of duals.

Edgewalker: Thanks for your input. At times I've wondered if Lotus Petals are shooting me in the leg, but then I continually draw hands in which Petal saves the game. Outside of a turn 2 win, I've had many turn 2's when I wanted to Brainstorm or Tutor and then play Mosswort Bridge, and Lotus Petal allowed me to keep a mana open for Stifle. Chrome Mox is also a possibility for mana stability, but this deck poorly handles card disadvantage. If possible, be sure to tell me how that mana base works against Goblins. I'd love to see if lands are better than Lotus Petals outside of my personal bias.

Isamaru

01-12-2008, 02:52 PM

Guys, guys. You are trying to hard. Sure this deck concept is original and have a good potential of getting strong, but one thing to consider: What makes this stronger than playing some stripped down variant of cephalid breakfeast?

Other than the included goyfs in MossNaught, why is this deck so hyped up? Don't get me wrong, I love the creative thinking in here, but I just don't see why it's supposed to be so good. But maybe im wrong (most likely actually), but I just don't see it. Anyone care to enlightened me?

I also don't understand why this deck is the second coming of the messiah, but I do think iOWN has put two known-ideas together that work very well. I do not mean to put down iOWN, but rather I want to express that I think that there are many many (though not all) creative decks in this contest currently (and I don't just biased-ly mean mine) that deserve consideration as well. To immediately shout "this deck won the contest" and "you hit the nail squarely on the head because nobody else comes close" etc. is not only unfair, but ignorantly discounting the other good submissions.

@Mordenkain

I think that your Breakfast list is better than what is taking place in this thread because it already has the room for Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, Top, and Stiflenought. The post-construction from this thread was to find space for all of those things, and it transforms into another deck postboard. Isn't that a bit distracting? :confused:

I see the strength of only one of the three pieces alone - Dreadnought, and it still needs Stifle or Bridge or Volrath's Shapeshifter to let it do its job. And after that, it is vulnerable to a single removal spell if unprotected.

Cephalid Breakfast is able to have all of its cards be at least somewhat useful without the combo. Only two cards are dead and must be Brainstormed back: Dread Return and Sutured Ghoul.

I know I may be a bit biased, but I feel that the three combo pieces in my deck "I Will Survive" are also useful individually, otherwise I would not have bothered to post the deck; I would have thought of it as too situational.

Having an alternate plan is great... but not when it is fumbling around for a 1cc 12/12 that dies to tons of removal. Instead, Cephalid Breakfast has a numerous alternate plans, and I Will Survive can play as an aggro Survival deck or an anti combo deck.

My matchup vs. Storm combo is difficult pre-board, and I know you play 4+ Stifle and 8 free counters, but how is your matchup vs. combo that is faster than you/me (turn 3 earliest for us)?

EDIT: I was typing the above while you were posting,

I think it's unfair to call this deck a "stripped down version of Breakfast". What's stripped down about it? Although the two can definitely be compared, I don't believe you can take one deck and say that it's strictly superior. Both decks have advantages, but this deck is still in the testing stage. Comparing a new concept to current Tier 1/1.5 decks stifles creativity and keeps the metagame stagnant.I completely agree with you here

Jaynel

01-12-2008, 03:02 PM

I think Lotus Petals really only add inconsistency to the deck for the sake of speed, which I don't think is that great. This is my list:

Manabase: 19 lands feels right to me. As I said in the beginning of my post, I feel that Petals really don't add that much to the deck. It has the potential to speed up your clock one turn, but even if you do go turn 1 Mosswort Bridge, mise a Hulk from the top and you have a Dreadnought in hand you really should be able to wait one more turn, knowing that you're insanely lucky and your opponent will probably cast One with Nothing.

One thing that I would like to bring up is that a blind Mosswort Bridge isn't bad. You'll usually see something good, be it a Goyf or another Dreadnought (if not the Hulk). It also can clear chaff away from the top if you're REALLY digging for something.

Combo: Props to Wobbles for the Dracoplasm kill. It's fucking dirty.

Protection/Disruption: 4 Force, 4 Daze gives you an incredible edge against other combo decks. Stifle is also solid against Storm triggers and enemy Wastelands. Eats fetches if you have an extra, which is always nice.

Draw: Wow. This part is so crazy. I went with 7 fetches to get the awesome shuffling business. You will see a lot of your deck by turn 3-4 between the 10 cantrips, and LDV is simply awesome. It sets up rediculous stacks, or can just act as a Vampiric Tutor for UB.

You have a lot of room to sideboard into CountertopStiflenaught.dec since you run 10 solid cantrips. This plan can really help dodge the graveyard hate that people might bring in. Plague is for the Goblins match, but is also relevent against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. Grip comes in against control packing Pernicious Deed /Humilty/Moat/etc. EE is awesome against Dragon Stompy and Stax.

iOWN, mad props for coming up with this awesome concept. Good luck in the contest!

Afro

01-12-2008, 03:25 PM

I also don't understand why this deck is the second coming of the messiah, but I do think iOWN has put two known-ideas together that work very well. I do not mean to put down iOWN, but rather I want to express that I think that there are many many (though not all) creative decks in this contest currently (and I don't just biased-ly mean mine) that deserve consideration as well. To immediately shout "this deck won the contest" and "you hit the nail squarely on the head because nobody else comes close" etc. is not only unfair, but ignorantly discounting the other good submissions.

Don't be mad that since this got posted your deck has fallen off to the wayside. Your deck is good and is being tested equally by the judges. It isn't as if the Judges are coming in here and saying that this deck has won hands down. The Judges must test each deck equally. I have always loved your decks (esp Horror.dec) but to come in here and post this just seems like your upset that your new deck isn't getting attention.

As for transformational sideboards are they necessary now that the consensus is to switch to the Darco kill?

Finn

01-12-2008, 03:32 PM

I'm with Jaynel on this in the most important way. Lotus Petals are an element of a pure combo deck. The rest of this deck is not that. It has the capacity to be very controllish. It also has room for some aggro elements. If you choose either of those, the petals are bad news. I still think you guys are cutting too many lands. It detracts from the resilience.

And may I recommend Trickbind for the matchup against control. If they counter Stifle, you just got 2-for-1'ed. If they let Dreadnought resolve figuring they will, and you Trickbind, they are screwed.

nightbringer

01-12-2008, 04:34 PM

nightbringer: For what specific reason don't you play basics? I rarely get screwed by color, because the deck doesn't really have many color requirements.

When i was first testen the deck i had some problems getting my green (i was testing a version that ran white instead of black) so i added more duals to make a U/G version and this is what came out of it.

My meta does not dus that many waste and i can handle them with the stifles.
I gues its mostly personal but im happy with the manabase like it is.You can take out some shockduals for basic i gues.

And may I recommend Trickbind for the matchup against control. If they counter Stifle, you just got 2-for-1'ed. If they let Dreadnought resolve figuring they will, and you Trickbind, they are screwed.

I have been testing these and i must say im very happy with them.
They rule against ***** wich is a bad matchup (the white version is the worst) i think.

iOWN

01-12-2008, 04:45 PM

Finn: Interesting point. Indeed, when I need to start laying down Tarmogoyfs, Lotus Petal would be much better as a land. I guess most are agreeing on the removal of Lotus Petal, so I'll start some experimental testing without it.

nightbringer: Threshold isn't a bad match-up. I've tested it the most out of anything else, and although it's thought-intensive and can go either way, I never find it to give me any big problems. As I stated in the opening post (match-up section), Threshold is more even to slightly favorable. Keep in mind, we tested several matches beforehand against different match-ups until the list felt right. The samples in the opening post come only from the games with that list.

Edit --

Jaynel: Your list looks strong! I gather that the additional cantrips help you to hit lands more often. How often are you actually using Wipe Away, though? Does it really get the job done?

Maveric78f

01-12-2008, 04:46 PM

I have quite the same (rather blind I conceide) opinion than Mordenkain. The deck looks very comparable to Cephalid Breakfast in its caracteristic:
- combo deck than can randomly go the aggro way
- it has quite a lot of disruption/protection
- it is highly easily disruptable. Every hate in legacy compromise the combo part of the deck, if the deck failed to protect it.

I'm not an expert of Cephalid Breakfast but it happened that most of my builds had no problem against it, and I never got impressed by the deck. It was hyped also a lot and now it's going down. By transitivity, I think that the concept is sexy too but not better than the breakfast's.

Deep6er

01-13-2008, 03:03 AM

OK, so I'm back from the weekly tournament at the Frog. I'll grant you that since there were only 13 people there, my making Top8 is no big thing. However, given the ability to play the deck in a tournament setting, it's allowed me to see a great deal of the power intrinsic in the design. First though, the list.

1) Lotus Petal is not very good in this deck. You need lands. 20 is a very good number for me, and I liked it. Mosswort Bridge is only half a land, so it's more like you're playing 18. Coming into play tapped is a bit of a downer, but it's still necessary while being good at the same time.

2) Tarmogoyf is insane. He would let me get up to 10 power on the table and allow me to activate Mosswort Bridge without using a Dreadnought. By extension, that allowed me to be significantly more free with my uses of Bridge. I would hide many things like extra Dreadnoughts, Counterbalance, Lim-Dul's Vault, and Pernicious Deed under them. They were amazing.

3) Pernicious Deed. This card is truly ridiculous. Besides being solid against many decks in the format, he's an excellent answer to much of the hate directed against the deck. It also allows you to "Rock" your opponent out by playing cards like 'Goyf, Therapy, Dark Confidant, Deed, and countermagic, and get the win that way.

4) The lack of Benevolent Bodyguard/Vigilant Martyr. I don't think that guy is necessary. With the addition of Therapy, and the combination of Force, your opponent is probably already having a difficult time executing his strategy. I don't like the wasted space, and honestly, the deck shouldn't need him.

5) The addition of Therapy was a solid choice. I now have enough extraneous creatures (in Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf) to effectively use it. Also, it sacrifices Protean Hulk in a pinch. More importantly though, is the fact that it clears all of the Swords/countermagic nonsense out of your opponents hand to effectively execute whichever one of you're strategies your going for.

6) Dark Confidant. This is probably one of the more odd choices. However, with Vault, and Brainstorm, I'd rarely get domed for too much. Sure I got hit for seven ONCE (still won that game). But more likely, you'll take one or two or possibly zero. His card advantage, if unchecked, will put you on the fast track to pursuing whichever course of action you want. Whether it be protecting and riding Stifle-Nought, or going for the combo, Dark Confidant will certainly help.

The sideboard was a little odd. The Counter/Top configuration allows you to exactly match your maindeck combo (7 for 7) so that post board grave hate is worthless. Since I was uncertain of the Goblins matchup, I had Plagues and Blast. I was worried about Dragon Stompy, and thus the Blasts and the extra Deed would come in. Ichorid might be a problem, and thus Jailers would be useful. Turns out that you have an abundance of hate against Breakfast with this board though. As 13 of your 15 are useful against them. Huh. Cool. It's probable that the sideboard needs work, but I do know that 7 of those should stay Counter/Top.

I'd be more than willing to replace Dark Confidant in the maindeck, but I do think that it should remain a creature. Getting to 10 power to activate Bridge, or flashing back Therapy are too useful to ignore. It's also important to note that after transforming to Counter/Top Stifle/Nought post board, Dark Confidant is good in that deck.

So anyway, those are my suggestions. I'm incredibly happy with the deck and will certainly be playing it for the Running GAGG. I'll certainly supply a full tournament report along with whatever changes to the decklist/sideboard I've made at that point as well.

So, suggestions? Criticisms? Questions? I'd be more than happy to discuss changes that I've made here.

Mental

01-13-2008, 03:10 AM

Deep6er, I really like your list. Can I get a quick tournament report? I'm really interested to hear how this deck played in 4(?) rounds of swiss.

AnwarA101

01-13-2008, 03:27 AM

I helped Deep6er test this list after the tournament today and he was up 5-1 against Goblins when we ended. The matchup from the Goblins perspective seems very difficult. The problem Goblins has most is against big creatures (read as Tarmogoyf) and combo decks (read as StifleNaught or the whole combo with Protean Hulk). I don't see Goblins being very good against this deck, but its possible that sideboard cards like Krosan Grip could be a bit of a problem, though Tarmogoyf still seems like a house even if you prevent them from going off.

Deep6er

01-13-2008, 03:45 AM

Sure, it's not a big deal though. (EDIT: This is in reference to Mental's post. NOT Anwar's. He posted while I was still typing.)

Round 1: Andrew Berke playing Cephalid Breakfast with Kiki Kill.

Game 1: He opens first turn Vial, second turn Counterbalance, third turn Top, fourth turn, Nomads + Illusionist. Hmm, beating.
I boarded in all 13 cards here. It was ridiculous.

Game 2: I open with Top go. He does the same. I play a turn 2 Counterbalance that he Forces pitching Narcomoeba, I Force back pitching a Brainstorm, and then he Forces AGAIN pitching Illusionist. So, he has basically no cards, I resolve Stifle-Nought, and beat the shit out of him.

Game 3: He opens on Vial. I manage to drop a Deed, and we get into a bit of a standoff. He's looking for Illusionist, whereas three of my lands are Bridges. Underneath is a Counterbalance, Yixlid Jailer, and Pernicious Deed. Finally, I manage to hit a Dreadnought. I've flushed the countermagic out of his hand through earlier Counterbalances, and Dreadnought resolves. With his trigger on the stack, I drop a Counterbalance, and Yixlid Jailer into play. Then I stifle the trigger. I was trying to see if he had anymore countermagic, and I wanted to play around Krosan Grip. Anyway, I go on to win that one.

Round 2: Parcher with Dragon Stompy
Game 1: He gets kind of a slow opening. He says he doesn't know what I'm playing (even though I've already told him, and other people have confirmed it). Anyway, he opens with Chalice for 1. I Force. Next turn, he drops a Gathan Raiders (morphed). I drop a land and pass. He swings without unmorphing, and drops a second one. I drop a land and Deed and pass. He swings for 4 and passes. I hit my fourth land drop and pass. He drops a Jitte on one of his raiders swings, and passes. I miss my fifth land drop but am sitting on a Brainstorm. So, I pass. He swings for 4 again, and passes. I Brainstorm, hit the land, play the land and pass. He swings, I Deed for 5, then he drops Chalice at 2. We play draw go for awhile, but he drops a Chalice for 1 (which both of us forget would have been countered by the Chalice at 2) and now I can't play Magic. He hits a Raiders, but I manage to hardcast a Protean Hulk as I'm at 1. Next few turns I play another Hulk at which point he flashes in his Sulfur Elemental. The next turn, I drop another one to which he manages to drop another Raiders. Finally, after he drops a Spirit Guide, I die.
I board in 2 Blasts and the Deed for the three combo pieces. I'm reasonably certain that he's bringing in Crypts, so the combo-kill is dead, but I can still Hulk up a bunch of Tarmogoyfs/Dreadnoughts.

Game 2: He mulls to five, while I mull to a good six. I open with Sea, Trop, 'Goyf, Force, Force, Deed. I go land pass, while he goes land, mox, pass. I draw Force for my turn, and drop 'Goyf. He goes for Magus on his turn, which I Force, and passes. I draw another Force (yes, that's all four), and swing and pass. He tries for Blood Moon (and Crypt which is irrelevant) which I Force again. I draw Blast for my turn, swing and pass. On his turn, he goes all out for Slogger, whom I then blast. Ouch. How lucky.

Game 3: This one is fuzzy. There was little action in the early game, and most of what I remember centers around this play. I have Deed, 'Goyf, 'Goyf. He has Slogger and Sulfur Elemental. My 'Goyfs are only 3/4's, but if I activate Deed, they become 5/6's. He swings in. After attackers are declared, but before blockers I activate Deed. Now, it's important to mention that he only has 19 cards left in his library. My newly large 'Goyfs block his Slogger and Elemental, and I end with a 'Goyf left. I proceed to ride that 'Goyf to victory.

Round 3 was a draw. With Jesse Hatfield.

Top 8
Happy Gilmore playing a slightly different version of UGR Thrash.

Game 1: He has nothing going on. He Snares an early Tarmogoyf, but an unthreshed Mongoose is only going for 1 at a time. I manage to hit a Bridge and hide a good card underneath it. However, all I'm drawing are Stifles. Finally, I hit a Dreadnought. So, I play the Dreadnought, with his trigger on the stack, I activate the Bridge. He Stifles. I respond with Stifling my trigger, he Forces, and I Stifle again. a 3/3 against a 12/12. Not very fair.

I make a mistake boarding here. I left in the Hulks and took out the combo. However, I also boarded out the Therapies. I should have just straight switched the combo for the Counter/Top configuration (or actually even better would have been NOT to board it in, but that's a different argument altogether).

Game 2: This game was hard. I found a Deed, but he had the Grip. He'd used an Ancient Grudge on my Top when I flipped it, and I couldn't resolve a Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance.

Game 3: Here things are aggravating. I kept a double Bridge, 'Goyf, Brainstorm, Stifle, Deed, Top hand. It may have been a bad keep, but I figure with 20 lands, it might not be terrible since I still have action in the form of 'Goyf/Top, and I can still hit a land for Brainstorm. Basically, I lose this game from here. While I manage to play a bit of Magic (the land comes 2 turns after and Top was Forced) that was an awful keep. I'm reasonably certain that had I not misboarded, and if I hadn't made the mistake with keeping, I could definitely have been in it. However, that one was my bad. Oh well.

On another note, I 5-1'd Goblins after the tournament. AnwarA101 and I were doing some testing, and it turns out that 'Goyf + StifleNought is insane against them. The beatdown plan is incredible. Then, even if they deal with that, you can just combo them out. Or use Deed. Damn, that card is good. After the results there, I may just turn the other two Plagues into Blue Blasts (which help against Dragon Stompy AND Goblins) and see if that makes for a better board. But yeah, that's about it.

iOWN

01-13-2008, 11:49 AM

First of all, thanks for taking it to a tournament! I still lack Underground Seas, so I haven't been able to completely build it so far. It makes sense that 'Goyf gives the Goblins match a boost. In fact, one of the reasons that the Goblins match was close in testing was that they could often get multiple pieces of removal before I could combo, which forced me to play without it. Dracoplasm completely ignores Burn which is awesome. Lastly, after testing out a full 20 lands, I am agreeing with everybody who has already replaced the Petals. The lands do give a boost in both the ability to set up, and the ability to combo other routes, and as a result a boost in consistency.

I have also been toying around with the maindeck Confidants, and I'm visualizing your points more clearly. Confidant is actually really good in this deck, but I was trying something more similar to Jaynel's list with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Tutor/LDV. Ponder is amazing, and also made Confidant safer to play. However, in order to run the library manipulation and Confidant, I had to replace 'Goyf. Confidant shined, but 'Goyf is better in a multitude of match-ups, so for now, I'm keeping the Confidants sideboard or cut.

It seemed that you boarded out the combo a lot. In what match ups is it the correct choice for it to remain in?

Deep6er

01-13-2008, 01:56 PM

@ iOWN: I don't think Ponder is the strongest choice for inclusion. Confidant's ability to solidly put you ahead (and then have the combo for backup) is a strong advocate for his inclusion.

Yes, Deed was incredibly helpful. Besides killing two Gathan Raiders AND an Umezawa's Jitte, it's also helped in clearing a board of Aether Vial, Counterbalance and Nomads-En-Kor.

I've thought about changing it to Zealot, but I like the Acolyte more as he allows me to focus on the Dracoplasm, instead of having to hope that I have two Dreadnoughts left. As Dreadnought will frequently be the target of Extirpate, it seems safer to me somehow.

@Mental: When I was expecting certain kinds of grave hate, I would board out the combo. I was trying to determine if creating the virtual card advantage would be more useful than just keeping the combo out available. I'll admit that against Dragon Stompy, I certainly COULD have kept the combo in, as Crypt is useless. However, I felt that trading 3 of my cards, for 4 of his would probably be a better investment in a matchup where I'm trying to contain his explosive starts. Thus, creating a dead card for him would probably prove more valuable to me. In essence, I'll board out the combo against a bunch of decks, for two reasons.
1) Counter/Top's strength against it.
2) Virtual card advantage.

Puzzle

01-13-2008, 02:09 PM

Why isn't the combo Dragonstorm + 4 Hellkites rather than Hulk ? It would be harder to foil, despite requiring one more slot and being a bit less blue (you don't want to rfg your combo bits anyway).
It also wouldn't need a sac outlet.

Alternative idea : Copy Artifact.
On the + side, it's blue, frees slots and could be useful with the main after additional design.
On the -, it's not instant-win and really needs the Dreadnought.

I think the core idea of Moss + Nought is very, very good but Flash's kill isn't the best imo for it.
You must also keep careful not to let the core idea become secondary to Tarmogoyf, Countertop and Stifle-Nought to keep the originality factor.

C.P.

01-13-2008, 02:24 PM

Why isn't the combo Dragonstorm + 4 Hellkites rather than Hulk ? It would be harder to foil, despite requiring one more slot and being a bit less blue (you don't want to rfg your combo bits anyway).
It also wouldn't need a sac outlet.

Because it cannot reliably make 3 storm count?
Also, Shapeshiter can be hardcasted as a creature, while non of your cards is not. On top of it, you combo requires 1 more slot and make confidants unplayable.

Puzzle

01-13-2008, 03:41 PM

Because it cannot reliably make 3 storm count?
Also, Shapeshiter can be hardcasted as a creature, while non of your cards is not. On top of it, you combo requires 1 more slot and make confidants unplayable.Although I could care less about Confidant being unplayable here, you have a point against Dragonstorm.

What I mean mostly, though, is that there must be a better kill than Hulk. Maybe up the Deeds to 4, add Damnation, and play Biorythm, I don't know. I just feel that the Hulk kill is clumsy.

Zach Tartell

01-13-2008, 03:48 PM

Maybe I don't see what's happening, but could somebody explain the combo to me? I dont' understand what the Inner-Flame dude does.

Hulk -> 4 Dreadnought + Tarmogofy is pretty sweet. But what is the combo win? I reckon it'll involve some sac'ing of Dreadnoughts, but I odn't see how you gain haste. Unless you're only going for a 12/12 Flier.

Jak

01-13-2008, 03:52 PM

Maybe I don't see what's happening, but could somebody explain the combo to me? I dont' understand what the Inner-Flame dude does.

Hulk -> 4 Dreadnought + Tarmogofy is pretty sweet. But what is the combo win? I reckon it'll involve some sac'ing of Dreadnoughts, but I odn't see how you gain haste. Unless you're only going for a 12/12 Flier.

The inner-Flame guy gives haste...

Belgareth

01-13-2008, 03:55 PM

Just so everyone's clear, when you sac the hulk and dreadnaught to start the combo, you stack your graveyard with the hulk on top. Find Shapeshifter(copying hulk), Dracoplasm and a Dreadnaught. Sacrifice both to Dracoplasm to make it an 18/18 and hulk again. Find Acolyte and, if you haven't seen them, two dreadnaughts. Acolyte makes Dracoplasm a 20/18. Swing. If you are worried about flying blockers or want a protection creature in the main, benevolent bodyguard fits both roles neatly.

Hope that helps zach.

Isamaru

01-13-2008, 03:56 PM

I think what Puzzle is trying to say is that if you get to play a spell that you had to set up through much effort (and that still has to resolve), it may as well be one that wins the game without the graveyard. Biorythm is a good suggestion, but there may even be a few more(?) The current kill is vulnerable to hate that Biorythmn is not, and if you are already playing Pernicious Deed, then you would be in good shape. Biorythm can even kill opponents with infinite life, and can't even be stopped by burn in response, etc.

Nihil Credo

01-13-2008, 04:05 PM

Funnily enough, Flores' deck for this Friday is an Extended combo deck involving EOT Rith's Charm, untap, attack with 3 saprolings, activate the White hideaway land to play Biorhythm ;)

iOWN

01-13-2008, 04:15 PM

I don't feel the Hulk combo is clumsy whatsoever. It takes three extra slots, only one of which is completely dead (Dracoplasm can be pitched to force or put under Bridge, Shapeshifter can easily become a Dreadnought or Hulk) and almost always wins. The only kind of hate that it is vulnerable to is graveyard hate, and I believe the only two cards are Leyline (prevents the Hulk trigger) and Extirpate (which can't be countered, and can remove Dreadnought). Even Extirpate can be played around by fetching something like triple 'Goyf. Any other 'yard hate isn't very effective and will only delay the kill a little.

Biorhythm won't win the game against a number of decks, and if you are counting on Deed before hand to win makes the combo even more complicated. Maybe in a deck that could win turn 1 or 2 consistently, Biorhythm would be worth running. The fundamental combo turns of MossNought are 3-4. There is no way to keep creatures off the board for that long. Seriously, Biorhythm is an interesting card, but it really has no advantages over the Hulk kill.

Jaynel

01-13-2008, 04:23 PM

The Hulk kill also strikes fear into anyone who remembers the whole Flash fiasco.

C.P.

01-13-2008, 04:45 PM

Although I could care less about Confidant being unplayable here, you have a point against Dragonstorm.

What I mean mostly, though, is that there must be a better kill than Hulk. Maybe up the Deeds to 4, add Damnation, and play Biorythm, I don't know. I just feel that the Hulk kill is clumsy.

Biorhythm is strictly worse than Hulk kill. It can easily be backfired, and many deck run more creature than this deck. I do admit that hulk is not a hottest looking card here, but It seems necessary evil to me.

Damnation does not fit the deck, either.

Artowis

01-13-2008, 05:35 PM

It can easily be backfired, and many deck run more creature than this deck.

Swing, damage on stack, activate Biorhythm is risky how? Against burn I guess?

Anyway, my main issue with the deck so far has been Wasteland. Card is awful to play against and makes it much more difficult to get the Dreadnoughts and everything else in the deck to play nice with one another.

iOWN

01-13-2008, 06:14 PM

Swing, damage on stack, activate Biorhythm is risky how? Against burn I guess?

Normally, an opponent can destroy Dreadnought or Swords to Plowshares Hulk in order to stop the combo. If that happens and you cannot deal with it, the game moves on.

If you play Dreadnought and flip over Biorhythm, they can respond by destroying or removing Dreadnought. If they control any creatures, they will win, and if they don't, it's a draw.

Illissius

01-13-2008, 08:36 PM

I was also going to ask whether Hulk is best combo for the deck, but after thinking about it, I couldn't come up with anything better. Other notable options are Tooth and Nail (you have to pay the :2:), Enduring Ideal, and Morality Shift into a Breakfasty kill or something.

Props on the deck, by the way. I haven't submitted one myself yet (and won't for a while), but I don't see how I'm going to top this.

nightbringer

01-14-2008, 03:48 AM

Normally, an opponent can destroy Dreadnought or Swords to Plowshares Hulk in order to stop the combo. If that happens and you cannot deal with it, the game moves on.

Did anyone try counterbalance/top main? I play this and it makes it a lot easier to deal with stuf like swords ans other things that disrupt the combo.
The hard part is to make the deck so you have enough cards of cc 2 and 1.

Tosh

01-14-2008, 04:01 AM

Did anyone try counterbalance/top main? I play this and it makes it a lot easier to deal with stuf like swords ans other things that disrupt the combo.
The hard part is to make the deck so you have enough cards of cc 2 and 1.
Deep6er's List (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=197854&postcount=83) runs them in the board and there are several other lists as well. I believe iOWN does not like CB/Top; I am not sure about that, but if he doesn't I didn't catch exactly why.

EDIT - My apologies, I did not catch the "in the main" part (edited body to reflect that). I'm not sure why CB/Top is only in the board in many lists. I suppose you would only need it against Combo & Control because anything else you have enough counters to protect and are fast enough to ignore creatures.

nightbringer

01-14-2008, 05:17 AM

Reading through the mere 5 pages before this page would reveal: Deep6er's List (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=197854&postcount=83) and there are several other lists as well. I believe iOWN does not like CB/Top; I am not sure about that, but if he doesn't I didn't catch exactly why.

Reading my post would reveal that my question was if there is anyone thats been playing it MAIN instead of side.

Deep6er

01-14-2008, 12:48 PM

I don't think that fitting Counter/Top maindeck is the best strategy.

1) Fitting an extra 7 cards into an already very tight decklist would be difficult.

2) Having them in the board gives you an excellent transformational sideboard into Counter/Top Stifle/Nought.

I suppose just from a theoretical perspective that you could fit them in the main, but it hurts matchups that I'm worried about anyway. Goblins will laugh at it, Landstill will laugh at it, and it will probably only be strong against Threshold, IF IT RESOLVES. The point with my list, where I have it in the board, is that I have Therapies to help it resolve, and Bob's and Dreadnoughts to help force Countermagic. Then, I have Deed as a sweeper if things go awry.

Puzzle

01-14-2008, 02:20 PM

Normally, an opponent can destroy Dreadnought or Swords to Plowshares Hulk in order to stop the combo. If that happens and you cannot deal with it, the game moves on.

If you play Dreadnought and flip over Biorhythm, they can respond by destroying or removing Dreadnought. If they control any creatures, they will win, and if they don't, it's a draw.If an opponent thwarts the Hulk combo once, I doubt you'll win anyway given the time it would take to start it over again and the cards you used in the process (1 Bridge + 1 Hulk + 1 Dreadnought + the search for all that). Not mentioning that you have only one Dracoplasm & co.

As for killing Dreadnought, it's a risk if you go blind : discard + counters are here to solve that. By running Biorythm, you would free slots to back up the combo, which would be imo an improvement.

About taking off with creatures or Vial in play, I'd search Deed or some Explosives maybe to deal with that before taking off.

Deep6er

01-14-2008, 02:24 PM

What's the deal with Biorhythm? Besides the fact that it's harder to cast outside the combo (which I've done multiple times with Hulk), it also isn't guaranteed to win the game. The beauty of Hulk is the fact that since the deck can get to the long game through the use of Deed, Goyf, and countermagic, you can hardcast Hulk if things go wrong. Seriously, Biorhythm isn't worthwhile.

iOWN

01-14-2008, 02:34 PM

About taking off with creatures or Vial in play, I'd search Deed or some Explosives maybe to deal with that before taking off.

Honestly, this kills the argument. A single creature (which will appear against almost any deck) will turn it into a slow, tediously set-up, 4 card combo. One of those cards is a 1 or 2-of. 85% of the time you've either complicated or totally butchered the combo, and the other 15% (and that's being generous) all you've done is freed 3 slots.

If an opponent thwarts the Hulk combo, you can still recover. Tarmogoyf, Stifle-Naught, or even set up the combo again (the combo pieces will usually remain untouched, and if not, you still have other creatures such as Dreadnoughts or 'Goyfs to grab). Hulk is thwarted by what? Leyline of the Void. Outside of Leyline, Hulk still places you at a huge advantage. Biorhythm? Loses to a single creature, probably the most common card type outside of lands.

georgjorge

01-14-2008, 02:44 PM

It may already have been brought up, but since for all of the three combo options you mention on the frontpage (Hulk via Bridge, Stifle Naught, search for Stifle or similar with Bridge for Naught) depend on resolving the Dreadnought. So the combo becomes impossible once CBalance + Top are out, which should happen often enough given that they have three or four turns to assemble it (although you mention getting more than ten power with Goyfs, which seems to take some time).

For that reason alone, I think running less than 3 Deed (or Grip if you're REALLY paranoid) maindeck would be a bad idea, so I would really advocate those in the deck. But I'd be interested in your experiences...do you usually get to use your Deeds, or does it happen often that a Needle on their side prevents it ? Would additional Grips in the side for CBalance + Top be needed (Needle could still stop the Bridge, but not Stifle + Nought) ?

Deep6er

01-14-2008, 03:22 PM

Frequently, decks that run Counter/Top (at least for now) don't have answers to 3 cost spells. Which means Deed is active the entire game. However, since you also have Force, you might be able to stop the first one.

Post board, when you have your own Counter/Top configuration in addition to Deeds and Therapies to force their resolution, it should be significantly better. Even though they'll (probably) bring in Grip, the time it buys you (as they won't really be able to play their Counterbalance) will likely be long enough to set up the combo. Or even just go with 'Goyf beatdown. Or Stifle-Nought beatdown. They can't Grip Counterbalance if they have to Grip Dreadnought to live. :)

Mental

01-14-2008, 09:54 PM

@Puzzle: If you fizzle going off, you can still beat with Goyf/Dreadnaught. It's hard to recover, but not impossible. I was playing against iOWN last night and he did so...though I still won that game.

Yulyn

01-15-2008, 03:37 PM

I don't know if someone mentoined before but I think the combo doesn't work because the creatures you want to sacrifice for Dracoplasm have to be in play before Dracoplasm enters play.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste

01-15-2008, 03:46 PM

I don't know if someone mentoined before but I think the combo doesn't work because the creatures you want to sacrifice for Dracoplasm have to be in play before Dracoplasm enters play.

It should work. All creatures you searched with Hulk enter play the same time. Now you can put the triggers on the stack (first the 'Nought trigger and then the Dracoplasm trigger). You sacrifce 'Nought and Shapeshifter (Hulk) into the Darcoplasm. Now you can't sacrifice creatures for the 'Nought (mh, okay, you can, but it would be stupid^^), so you have to sacrifice the 'Nought, but he isn't in play anymore, so you can't sacrifice him.
After that, you have got a 18/18 creature and the Hulk trigger resolves...

Yulyn

01-15-2008, 03:59 PM

It should work. All creatures you searched with Hulk enter play the same time. Now you can put the triggers on the stack (first the 'Nought trigger and then the Dracoplasm trigger). You sacrifce 'Nought and Shapeshifter (Hulk) into the Darcoplasm. Now you can't sacrifice creatures for the 'Nought (mh, okay, you can, but it would be stupid^^), so you have to sacrifice the 'Nought, but he isn't in play anymore, so you can't sacrifice him.
After that, you have got a 18/18 creature and the Hulk trigger resolves...

That's the problem. They enter play at the same time so you can't sacc them for the Dracoplasm. In your described situation Dracoplasm enters play as 0/0 and then you sacc the creatures. That's impossible ;)

freakish777

01-15-2008, 04:19 PM

It doesn't particularly matter that Dracoplasm and Dreadnought enter play at the same time. Since they both are in play at the same time, Dracoplasm's "As ~this~ comes into play" text will allow you to sacrifice any creature in play, regardless of whether or not it came into play at the same time. It only cares about if they're in play at that very moment in time.

Subsequently, if I'm not mistaken you can't stack the triggers the way you want to, because Dracoplasm's "As ~this~" text will always happen before Dreadnoughts "When ~this~" trigger. This, however, doesn't stop the combo from happening.

The creatures DO NOT have to be in play before Dracoplasm enters play. They simply have to be in play when Dracoplasm enters play. Think of it like a mathematical less than symbol vs. a mathematical less then or equal to symbol with respect to "age" of the creatures in play. The same would be true if they all entered play at the same time thanks to Eureka, or a similar effect.

largebrandon

01-15-2008, 04:21 PM

That's the problem. They enter play at the same time so you can't sacc them for the Dracoplasm. In your described situation Dracoplasm enters play as 0/0 and then you sacc the creatures. That's impossible ;)

- Hulk triggers
- Get Nought, Shapeshifter, and Dracoplasm, in that order.
- As Dracoplasm comes into play, Sac Hulk (shapeshifted) and nought
- dracoplasm is a 18/18
- hulk trigger resolves --> fetch flamekin a 2 more noughts
- give dracoplasm +2/+0 and haste (now a 20/18 flier).
- Sac one nought to the other
- End up with 20/18 hasted Dracoplasm and a non-hasted nought just in case.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste

01-15-2008, 04:21 PM

That's the problem. They enter play at the same time so you can't sacc them for the Dracoplasm. In your described situation Dracoplasm enters play as 0/0 and then you sacc the creatures. That's impossible ;)

When it is about to come into play by means other than being cast, you must choose the number of creatures to sacrifice and do so right before it comes into play. [bethmo 1998/02/12]

Mh... That's really strange.

€:// Okay, it seems that your problem solved.
€2:// @xsockmonkeyx:
Yeah, I thought, that this ruling isn't the current anymore :).

xsockmonkeyx

01-15-2008, 04:24 PM

When it is about to come into play by means other than being cast, you must choose the number of creatures to sacrifice and do so right before it comes into play. 1998/02/12]

iOWN

01-15-2008, 04:33 PM

I am probably incorrect, but I think this is the relevant rule:

418.5e An object's timestamp is the time it entered the zone it's currently in, with three exceptions: (a) If two or more objects enter a zone (or zones) simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at the time they enter that zone. (b) Whenever an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp. (c) Permanents that phase in keep the same timestamps they had when they phased out.

Hulks trigger is currently resolving, and is telling you to put the creatures into play simultaneously. You are the active player, and get to choose at what time the objects enter play.

"As this comes into play" signifies the resolution of a spell or ability, simultaneous to when it is put into play. If I'm understanding this correctly, you can choose Dreadnought and Shapeshifter, and Dracoplasm's ability will happen afterwards because Dreadnought and Shapeshifter have earlier timestamps.

freakish777

01-15-2008, 04:49 PM

Actually, Yulyn may be right:

410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ," "As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," "[This permanent] comes into play as . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes into play tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.

Maybe we can get Akki to clarify?

I have a feeling that even if this is the case, you can grab Nought, Nought, Nought, Shapeshifter, sac Shapeshifter & 1 Nought, leaving 2 nought triggers on the stack, then grab Dracoplasm + whatever (sac the 2 dreadnoughts with triggers still on the stack) for the kill.

Deep6er

01-15-2008, 06:11 PM

So, after coming to the conclusion that I was wrong about Mosswort Bridge's activated ability (I thought it said "use this ability if creatures you control have 10 or more power"), I've been deciding if I need to rework the base a bit. For reference, my list:
Mana - 20
4 Mosswort Bridge
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

After careful consideration, I've decided that the slots I should focus on are the (4) Confidants and the (3) Therapies. On that note, I'll list what I've been thinking of, and why I think it would be good.

However, an overarching detail of my plan should preface that section. I think it's important to change those slots, so that you could effectively kill whatever hate they bring in. You can do this in many ways, but I'm trying to think of the most effective ways. If I decide to board out Dreadnoughts, I'll probably want to turn some of those slots into creatures. That way, I'll still have ways to get to 10 power, but I'll also have enough creatures for those situations where I board out the combo AND the Dreadnoughts. That's what the upcoming section is going to detail.

So, with a theoretical sideboard consisting of Wasteland, Extirpate, and Counter/Top, you could make the 4/3 split Thoughtseize and Tombstalker. That would allow you to play a tempo-based game 2 with Thoughtseize, Force, Waste/Extirpate, and so forth. However, without Daze, that doesn't seem quite as strong.

There's also the option of going with Terravore. There are enough fetchlands/Wastelands in this format that he'll be reasonably large, and with him and Tarmogoyf, you could reasonably get to 10 power. Theoretically, if you wanted to include Terravore, that would make the split 3 Terravore, and 4 Thoughtseize/Daze. You'd still want Waste in the board, and you'd have a proactive Threshold type game plan with a finisher that's reasonably large. However, if your opponent brings in grave hate (for mistaken reasons probably) then Terravore ends up taking a hit.

I don't like turning it into a split between Thoughtseize and Daze simply because you don't have enough creatures after that. If you were to board out the combo AND Dreadnoughts (in order to effectively render their board useless) you still have to have enough creatures to win the game, and Tarmogoyf (as good as he is) just isn't enough.

I would really appreciate suggestions. The idea that I want to test is possibly if setting up a board strategy that completely destroys their board plan is worth it. The best part would be that it's totally unpredictable. Did he leave in Dreadnoughts? Do I board in Krosan Grip? What if he boarded them out? Then, I have dead cards.

If the board can simultaneously generate Virtual Card Advantage while propagating the "win the game" plan, that seems to be the ideal plan. I will however admit that this plan will, in all probability, hurt the Goblins Matchup. As THEY WILL bring in Grips to deal with Deed if not Plague. Anyway, suggestions are welcome.

Ewokslayer

01-15-2008, 06:20 PM

Actually, Yulyn may be right:

410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ," "As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," "[This permanent] comes into play as . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes into play tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.

Maybe we can get Akki to clarify?

I have a feeling that even if this is the case, you can grab Nought, Nought, Nought, Shapeshifter, sac Shapeshifter & 1 Nought, leaving 2 nought triggers on the stack, then grab Dracoplasm + whatever (sac the 2 dreadnoughts with triggers still on the stack) for the kill.

It appears that Dracoplasm will die.

This ruling from 2005 is similar to the situation

Q: If Clone is in a graveyard and a player casts Living Death, then what happens to Clone? --Robert N.

A: Players will remove all creature cards in their graveyards from the game. Then they'll sacrifice all creatures they control. Just before the removed creatures come into play, Clone looks around and finds nothing to copy, so it comes into play as a 0/0 and probably dies.

zulander

01-15-2008, 06:21 PM

I would really appreciate suggestions. The idea that I want to test is possibly if setting up a board strategy that completely destroys their board plan is worth it. The best part would be that it's totally unpredictable.

What slots in your board are 100% confirmed? Which ones are you looking to fiddle with? What matchups are you thinking of for these slots?

Deep6er

01-15-2008, 06:31 PM

I was thinking that it would help to keep the Counter/Top configuration for Threshold/Breakfast/other decks with Counter/Top. It also manages to sync perfectly with the 7 maindeck combo cards (although, that might change if that ruling is correct ((although, that might change how the combo is executed, not necessarily the combo itself))) so that's a large bonus.

The matchups that I'm worried about are mainly Dragon Stompy, Ichorid (although, I could be wrong about that, Dreadnought RFG's Bridge for 1 mana and you have Deed as backup), Goblins, Eva Green (I don't think I can beat that deck), Threshold, and Cephalid Breakfast. Since I've gotten little testing done, I don't actually know what matchups I should be afraid of.

It seems to me that Goblins might be decent enough to ignore (looking at my 5-1 against Anwar) and I have a couple of different outs against Breakfast (with both Counter/Top and Deed being strong against them.) So, I'm not certain. Seems to me that I should test more before really looking into this, but I'd like to think about cards that could theoretically have been in the others' place to kind of keep mental track of which ones I think have potential. I guess I'm just looking for ideas at this point.

Yulyn

01-15-2008, 06:35 PM

I found this on Starcitygames.com

Q: A player in our group cast Dracoplasm with a Saproling Burst (seven counters) on the table. He claimed that the Dracoplasm could be 21/21 via removing a token (6/6) and sacrificing it and then repeating with a (5/5) and so on.

A: Not quite. Dracoplasm says "As ~this~ comes into play, sacrifice..." This isn't a triggered ability, but part of the resolution of the spell that puts Dracoplasm in play. The creatures to be sacrificed must already be in play. If you had removed six Saproling tokens previously, your Dracoplasm would be 6/6; if 5, 10/10; if 4, 12/12, and so on.

The timestamps mentoined some posts above don't work here I think. It is right that you give the cards a certain order but they still enter play at the same time and so you can't sacc your dreadnought to the dracoplasm.

zulander

01-15-2008, 06:47 PM

I was thinking that it would help to keep the Counter/Top configuration for Threshold/Breakfast/other decks with Counter/Top. It also manages to sync perfectly with the 7 maindeck combo cards (although, that might change if that ruling is correct ((although, that might change how the combo is executed, not necessarily the combo itself))) so that's a large bonus.

I'd go -4 beb, -1 cb, +3 spell snare +2 deed. Against thresh, you can side in your entire board except for jailors, and against breakfast your entire board as well (although I wouldn't recomend it but it gives you flexibility). Deed is a house against Chalice aggro decks, and spell snare helps out against eva green, thresh and breakfast. Jailors and deed come in against ichorid. What do you think?

GreenOne

01-15-2008, 06:50 PM

This is something has to be clarified, please someone post this thing in the "ask to judge" thread if nobody did it yet and stop the debate here until an official answer comes.

C.P.

01-15-2008, 06:53 PM

I would really appreciate suggestions. The idea that I want to test is possibly if setting up a board strategy that completely destroys their board plan is worth it. The best part would be that it's totally unpredictable. Did he leave in Dreadnoughts? Do I board in Krosan Grip? What if he boarded them out? Then, I have dead cards.

You can board in 4 Nimble Mongoose and Counter/Top to make it Pseudo-UBG Threshold. I'm not sure if you have enough cantrips for that plan, though. Putting 7 cards in the GY might be bit hard with your list.

If not, there is Dryad or Serendib, even negator or tombstalker, I guess.

xsockmonkeyx

01-15-2008, 07:10 PM

Negator is quite the pain in the ass for an unprepared opponent. Also, a Gator and a Goyf might get you to 10 power.

Jaynel

01-15-2008, 07:10 PM

I have a feeling that even if this is the case, you can grab Nought, Nought, Nought, Shapeshifter, sac Shapeshifter & 1 Nought, leaving 2 nought triggers on the stack, then grab Dracoplasm + whatever (sac the 2 dreadnoughts with triggers still on the stack) for the kill.

This works. You end up with a hasty 26/24 guy, 0 Dreadnoughts (which isn't optimal, but whatever), and a 2/2 red guy.

Deep6er

01-15-2008, 07:14 PM

The problems with this strategy are the fact that the deck has no targeted removal. Black Threshold (at the very least) has Ghastly Demise. I can't really play a Threshold type deck (unless it's AGAINST Threshold, because Deed is actually good enough to be removal) because the glaring lack of targeted removal means that I'm guaranteed to run into problems if my opponent plays a Tombstalker or something of the sort.

@Green One: The combo is unaffected, the chain is simply changed. Dreadnought into play, trigger on the stack, flip a Hulk into play. Sac Hulk + Dreadnought, go find Shapeshifter, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Dreadnought (or some combination of Tarmogoyf if you don't have the EXTRA Dreadnoughts). Then, sac the Shapeshifter (Hulk) and a Dreadnought to one of the other Dreadnoughts. Go find Dracoplasm, and Inner-Flame Acolyte. Since the creatures to sac to 'Plasm are already in play, it's no big deal. Then, when the Acolyte comes into play, you give the 'Plasm haste and +2/+0. Then, win.

@Zulander: Deed MUST come down before Magus. That's why I was playing Blast. However, how strong IS Snare against Eva Green? I don't remember it being that stellar.

EDIT: Hmm, Sarnath'd. Fair enough. On the topic of Negator, I would again stress my lack of targeted removal. Is it possible that I should turn some of the slots available in the maindeck into removal? That seems like it might be bad, but I could be wrong.

EDIT2: Wow, I was Sarnath'd in TWO THREADS. Beating. Anyway, more on topic, what about additional Deeds? Abandon the Counter/Top plan, and turn into a more control deck. Since there are seven maindeck slots you could go with +1 Deed, +2 Tombstalker, and +4 Thoughtseize. Then, post board, you could just have solid cards and board out the combo/Dreadnoughts. Is that overanalyzing the scenario? Hmm, seems like it.

iOWN

01-15-2008, 07:18 PM

The problem is that even if you do happen to still have all three Dreadnoughts in your library, an opponent can now respond to the Dreadnoughts' triggers by removing Hulk from your graveyard. Instead of being able to play around Crypt, Extirpate and so on, you end up with a 12/12 at best.

Deep6er

01-15-2008, 07:23 PM

...DAMN. That's absolutely correct. That is a truly disappointing turn of events. Why don't we look into other combos? I'll go comb Gatherer. I'll be back if I find something.

Ewokslayer

01-15-2008, 07:26 PM

The problem is that even if you do happen to still have all three Dreadnoughts in your library, an opponent can now respond to the Dreadnoughts' triggers by removing Hulk from your graveyard. Instead of being able to play around Crypt, Extirpate and so on, you end up with a 12/12 at best.
Actually, you would have 2 12/12s

All the Naught triggers go on the stack.
If your opponent crypts you now shapeshifter becomes a 0/1. You sac one naught to another so that shapeshifter becomes a copy of naught and then you take care of the other triggers by saccing the naughts to themselves.
If your opponent waits to crypt you till after a naught trigger resolves the shapeshifter is already sacced as a copy of Hulk.

All the Naught triggers go on the stack.
If your opponent crypts you now shapeshifter becomes a 0/1. You sac one naught to another so that shapeshifter becomes a copy of naught and then you take care of the other triggers by saccing the naughts to themselves.
If your opponent waits to crypt you till after a naught trigger resolves the shapeshifter is already sacced as a copy of Hulk.

Good catch. I was still thinking "sacrifice Nought and Shapeshifter... now what?"

In that case, it's looking a little better. However, turning all excess 'Noughts into combo pieces is still strenuous. I too will start scanning for other combos, but I suppose this combo is still good unless we can find something strictly better.

odabella

01-16-2008, 05:30 AM

@Green One: The combo is unaffected, the chain is simply changed. Dreadnought into play, trigger on the stack, flip a Hulk into play. Sac Hulk + Dreadnought, go find Shapeshifter, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Dreadnought (or some combination of Tarmogoyf if you don't have the EXTRA Dreadnoughts).

(or some combination of Tarmogoyf if you don't have the EXTRA Dreadnoughts).

So you mean: Put only 3 Tarmogoyfs or 2 Goyfs + Dreadnought, Dreadnought into play without haste or anything into play? Am i right?

Ok, with that different execution of our combo, now Flame-Kin Zealot could be better.
If you are missing one Dreadnought you can go:

No, the next part was to use the Shapeshifter sac, to go find Dracoplasm and Inner-Flame Acolyte. Then, sac those creatures to Dracoplasm (who has Haste thanks to the Acolyte) and swing for death.

@Zulander: I suppose, but the problem is the fact that Tombstalker will kill me. I don't have outs for that guy. Why don't I get some more testing done, and I'll come back with results. Then, we can see which matchups I really should be afraid of, and we can brainstorm accordingly.

zulander

01-16-2008, 03:02 PM

@Zulander: I suppose, but the problem is the fact that Tombstalker will kill me. I don't have outs for that guy. Why don't I get some more testing done, and I'll come back with results. Then, we can see which matchups I really should be afraid of, and we can brainstorm accordingly.
True, but at that point I think it's just pick your poison.

Yeah, it seems like often mid- to late-game it will be harder to go "oops, I win" because you are likely to have already tried playing a Dreadnought or drawn an extra for some reason. Dreadnought, FKZ, 'Goyf sounds great. Another thing to note is that if 'Goyf reaches 6, you'll only need one Dreadnought left to execute this plan.

I'm sorry that the match-ups are still so incomplete. Midterms are approaching and apparently Mclovin lost his computer to a forced study session. Hopefully, we'll be able to continue the week after next.

Deep6er

01-20-2008, 05:54 AM

OK, so I'm back from a Top 4 at the Frog tourney. Here's the list I played

1) Lack of Dark Confidant. Turns out that Confidant and Counterbalance compete for the same slot. They're both card advantage engines which allow you to win the game if they go unanswered. I failed to notice this before, and I take full responsibility for not realizing this sooner. Instead of drawing out removal, I can negate it. That seems better.

2) Lack of Lim-Dul's Vault. Top + 8 fetches is the reasoning here. I was trying to cut down on the number of "dead" cards/draws that I could have, and LDV won't do anything the turn I draw it. That seems poor. Thus, 8 fetches + Top accomplishes a similar strategy.

3) Vedalken Shackles. That card serves as a trump card for matchups that you're worried about. Besides the ability to take Tarmogoyf (which you can either use to get to 10 power, beat face, or sac to your Dreadnought), it serves as yet another method of card advantage. The way the deck plays now, resembles a control deck with a combo finish more than the other way around. I think that's better.

I like the way this build turned out because of it's strong control plan, backed by a strong aggro plan. The deck can morph into any strategy it needs to and it can do all of them (at the very least) passably well. That versatility will certainly prove to be helpful.

noobslayer

01-20-2008, 04:00 PM

I think out of all the CanGD's, this one is the most original, viable, and absolutely refined. The fact that it is seeing tournament finishes now as well is a huge testament to it's playability. Kudos to iOWN and everyone else who has been working on it.

Deep6er

01-20-2008, 04:38 PM

So, I've been thinking about my sideboard. I'm reasonably certain that some things are static ('Blasts, and Jailer), while some are a tad bit more mutable (Deed, Lands, Snare).

The Deed and the Lands might not be the correct idea. My reasoning behind them was that they would allow me to play around Grips on my Shackles/Explosives with Ruins, or play the "get more 'Goyfs" game with Stronghold. However, after looking around on Gatherer, I came across an interesting idea. If you could somehow get Hulk in the 'yard, you could use Necromancy on it during your opponent's end step (or to block a 'Goyf or something) and then it would die (since you cast it as an instant) at end of turn, giving you the chain and making Acolyte unnecessary.

What do you guys think? You can't really use it as a permanent reanimation spell simply because of the preponderance of Krosan Grip. However, if they Grip it while it's on Hulk, it accomplishes the same purpose as killing a Hulk. I don't know if it's sideboard worthy material (especially given how strong the sideboard is now against the matchups I'm worried about), but it's certainly something to think about.

iOWN

01-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Grats on the Top 4. :)

For Necromancy, what would you board out? Considering you still need all of the creatures to combo, there isn't much room to bring in Necromancy (plus a way to discard Hulk).

I don't think Necromancy works well as an alternate combo piece. It means that there is absolutely no way to play around 'yard hate, and Grip still hinders the combo. If they are holding a Grip, then they can wait until you sacrifice Shapeshifter, and Grip a Dreadnought. You will only have one 'Nought to sacrifice to Dracoplasm, so you end up with a... 12/12 Flyer? I guess the combo is still somewhat effective, but to accomplish it you are cramming your sideboard full, and then boarding out protection or set-up.

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry about playing around Grip. Stifling a Phyrexian Dreadnought is still scary, and just because an opponent brings in Grip does not mean that they will draw it. Perhaps having some extra creatures in the 'board, such as Mongeese or Tombstalker, as additional win conditions would lessen the blow of Grip. In any case, I feel Dreadnought is greater than the virtual card advantage you can possibly gain from dead Krosan Grips.

Deep6er

01-20-2008, 06:55 PM

HUH? If you Necromancy a Hulk on THEIR END STEP. It dies. Naturally. Because Necromancy dies. If they Grip a Necromancy, they've LITERALLY DONE NOTHING. Then, you can get a Shapeshifter and THREE Dreadnoughts. Even if they Grip a Dreadnought there, you can get an extra one with the last Shapeshifter/Hulk trigger, or get some 'Goyfs and beat face. The other significant factor about Necromancy is the fact that you're doing it on THEIR end step. Which means that you DON'T have to get Acolyte. The creatures will not be "sick" when it comes to your turn. Which means more 'Goyfs.

At this point, I'll concede that Grip is going to be good against me. I have too many Artifacts/Enchantments that Grip WILL hit something good.

The point I'm trying to make with Necromancy is that it allows other ways of executing the combo that don't require a Dreadnought to stick. I'll give you that graveyard hate can cancel that plan, but grave hate would probably hinder the first plan as well, so there's no harm in trying to overload it.

Also, I was thinking that I'd probably board out Explosives, and Shackles. With so many ways of hitting the combo, going for the extreme late game becomes irrelevant. Basically, it would allow you to create a stronger combo strategy in the face of hate. But, since it's multipurpose, it doesn't interfere with whatever strategy you were pursuing before. Which means that it doesn't hinder any strategy that you were employing when you drew it. Thus, it's active basically the entire game.

iOWN

01-20-2008, 07:20 PM

HUH? If you Necromancy a Hulk on THEIR END STEP. It dies. Naturally. Because Necromancy dies. If they Grip a Necromancy, they've LITERALLY DONE NOTHING. Then, you can get a Shapeshifter and THREE Dreadnoughts. Even if they Grip a Dreadnought there, you can get an extra one with the last Shapeshifter/Hulk trigger, or get some 'Goyfs and beat face. The other significant factor about Necromancy is the fact that you're doing it on THEIR end step. Which means that you DON'T have to get Acolyte. The creatures will not be "sick" when it comes to your turn. Which means more 'Goyfs.

Sorry, what I said was convoluted. I understand the combo, but this is your outcome in the best situation facing a Grip:

Hulk is destroyed, and triggers.
You search for three Phyrexian Dreadnoughts and a Shapeshifter.
You sacrifice a Dreadnought and a Shapeshifter (Hulk), and Hulk's graveyard trigger is put on the stack.
In response, they Grip a Dreadnought.
You search for Dracoplasm, and two 'Goyfs.
Sacrifice the single Dreadnought as Dracoplasm comes into play.

You have a 12/12 Flyer and two 'Goyfs. I'll admit it is still pretty good, but it does not necessarily win the game, and still gives them an opportunity to Grip something important.

I'd just like to point out again that you would need some way to pitch Hulk. Necromancy doesn't do anything by itself. Would you play MD Therapy, or 'board something in along with Necromancy?

Deep6er

01-20-2008, 07:42 PM

I was thinking about boarding in Predict as well. Besides giving a source of card advantage, it would also allow you to control your draws more effectively against decks like Threshold, where you still want the combo, but need to be wary of the late game as well. Not sure though, at this point I was mainly spit-balling.

I wouldn't mind ideas if you have them though. I'll be playing this list for the Running GAGG, and I'm not sure of the metagame up there. If it's like the Winter Wonderland event, with lots of Landstill and Survival, I should probably change the board around a bit. Although, the board that I have seems like it would be strong against Survival (Spell Snare is good against them, I think, could be wrong, does anybody know?). And the recurring lands would probably be irritating for Landstill.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm still looking for ideas. Would definitely welcome suggestions.

iOWN

01-21-2008, 06:57 PM

I've had a tough time winning against Landstill in my limited testing so far. If that's the kind of meta to be expected, I would tune the sideboard towards beating Landstill over anything else. Stronghold and Academy do seem like they would be strong in that match-up. I'm somewhat short of ideas when it comes to sideboarding against Landstill. Perhaps some way to function under Standstill: Manlands in the 'board? Could work.

In any case, I think packing 'boarded threats is the way to fight Landstill. 4 'Goyf and 4 Dreadnoughts just don't do the job, and the combo is impossibly hard to set up in this match-up. (Well, it is possible, but the chance is slim to none.) I was liking Tombstalker, but Delve is hard to pay more than once, so he isn't too hot with the recurring lands. Mongoose and Troll Ascetic are both good, cheap, threats that can be recurred with ease. Troll is particularly strong here, because Landstill always packs Deed if it's in-color, and we run it too.

Sideboarding vs. Survival shouldn't be much of an issue... I don't see Survival as a big threat. 7-8 discard spells isn't enough to give them an advantage, and other than that they've got what? Burning Wish and Magus of the Moon? If you try to win via aggro, and go into the midgame, Survival will become much scarier, but they still can't do a lot against the combo. Deed is amazing here, and yeah, Spell Snare is also pretty good.

sunshine

01-22-2008, 09:13 AM

just wondering if anyone has done any testing with Academy Rector in this deck. something like

-fetch 2x Dreadnought + Rector
-fetch Dovescape (for example)

seems not bad, and that's if you only have 2 Dreadnoughts left in the deck and don't try any shenanigans with Volrath's shapeshifter. Also, Magus of the Moon might be an interesting alternative to Inner-Flame Acolyte, essentially turning your opponent off may be better than granting haste in most cases.

largebrandon

01-22-2008, 09:17 AM

In my testing versus Landstill, the card I want more than any other is Leyline of the Lifeforce. Get that into play (turn 0) and they can neither counter your nought nor your hulk.

Zach Tartell

01-22-2008, 11:38 AM

In my testing versus Landstill, the card I want more than any other is Leyline of the Lifeforce. Get that into play (turn 0) and they can neither counter your nought nor your hulk.

This then leaves them free to counter your stifle on the dreadnought a hundred ways, or.... stifle your hulk? I'll admit that it helps when comboing, but I don't think it helps at all in relation to Dreadnought. Saying, "My goyf resolves now" makes more sense than "Oh, shit! 'noughts all day son!"

Nightmare

01-22-2008, 11:54 AM

Sorry, what I said was convoluted. I understand the combo, but this is your outcome in the best situation facing a Grip:

Hulk is destroyed, and triggers.
You search for three Phyrexian Dreadnoughts and a Shapeshifter.
You sacrifice a Dreadnought and a Shapeshifter (Hulk), and Hulk's graveyard trigger is put on the stack.
In response, they Grip a Dreadnought.
You search for Dracoplasm, and two 'Goyfs.
Sacrifice the single Dreadnought as Dracoplasm comes into play.

You have a 12/12 Flyer and two 'Goyfs. I'll admit it is still pretty good, but it does not necessarily win the game, and still gives them an opportunity to Grip something important.

I'd just like to point out again that you would need some way to pitch Hulk. Necromancy doesn't do anything by itself. Would you play MD Therapy, or 'board something in along with Necromancy?I'm confused. Why would they grip a Nought at that point, instead of doing it with the Sacrifice trigger still on the stack? That way, the Shapeshifter turns into a Nought, and you don't get to search for anything.

odabella

01-22-2008, 12:43 PM

Why does nobody put Thoughtseize in his list? It's so simple and obvious that I am sure that everybody is aware of it.
So I feel a bit sheepish about suggesting it.

But this provides an easy solution for those nasty Grips.

Do I miss something?

EDIT: For Example: -4 Daze +4 Thoughtseize.

iOWN

01-22-2008, 01:11 PM

I'm confused. Why would they grip a Nought at that point, instead of doing it with the Sacrifice trigger still on the stack? That way, the Shapeshifter turns into a Nought, and you don't get to search for anything.

In that case, you wouldn't have to sacrifice Shapeshifter, and would be left with two Dreadnoughts (sacrificing one to the other) and a Shapeshifter (another Dreadnought) which is 24 power with trample. It's true that they could do that, but in most cases a 12/12 Flyer and two vanilla, chump-able creatures are less deadly. My point was simply that Grip isn't completely dead and still will give them a way to perhaps survive a little longer.

Sunshine: I did search through different flavors of Academy Rector as a combo piece, even an alternative to Hulk, but the problem is that it doesn't have the same game-winning power. The combo we have right now may not be optimal, but it's pretty damn close. Only having to play 3 combo pieces really helps your draws, and on top of that it will unconditionally win you the game. If you can find a Rector combo that occupied 3-4 slots and wins the game, that would be awesome.

odabella: It's been discussed several times. Discard vs. Daze is a matter of opinion. I personally don't like Thoughtseize, Therapy, or Duress in this deck, for reasons I've mentioned before. However, a list like Deep6er's a few pages back (with Confidants and 'Goyfs) can abuse Cabal Therapy's power level, and in that case it makes a fine addition.

sunshine

01-25-2008, 10:10 PM

in testing, how often do you find yourself with extra dreadnoughts/combo pieces in hand when you need them in the library to go off? I've done a littlbe bit of testing with Lat-nam's legacy as a 2-3of. Usually I'm just shuffling back Hulk with it and end up going the aggro-control route, sometimes it's gold and moves a shapeshifter or dracoplasm (or even dreadnought) back to the library. I'm not totally sold on it, just thought it was worth mentioning.

chmoddity

01-26-2008, 09:05 AM

@Sunshine: This has been my problem as well. I have found the Moss land and company just getting in the way of a Stifle-Nought build. There have been games in which I was able to go off early, and those usually went well. But often I would be looking at my options and thinking how much easier it would be to just pay the two mana and two cards to get a Dreadnought to stick or get CounterTop up and running. With all the things the deck can potentially do, I am having to choose which one to pursue, and they all get in the way of the others with situationally inferior cards.

The primary combo is really cool, but I can't decide if it is worth it or not since all the other stuff that we already know is easier to pull off in this very same deck. Is it just Stifle-Nought/CounterTop in an uncomfortable disguise?

Isamaru

01-26-2008, 01:10 PM

The primary combo is really cool, but I can't decide if it is worth it or not since all the other stuff that we already know is easier to pull off in this very same deck. Is it just Stifle-Nought/CounterTop in an uncomfortable disguise?

This is my worry too, and if it is true, then it is best not to dilute it - one way or the other.

sunshine

01-28-2008, 11:39 AM

There must be some way to abuse Reveillark with this deck, especially since cards like Volrath's Shapeshifter and Body Double have zero power in the yard.

My first attempt would look something like this:
-fetch Body Double and Carrion Feeder off of hulk trigger. Set Body Double to Copy Hulk.
-sac Body Double (hulk) to fetch Reveillark and Mogg Fanatic.
-sac Fanatic to hit opponent for one.
-sac the Reveillark via Carrion Feeder bringing back Fanatic and Body Double. Body Double now copies Reveillark
-sac Fanatic for another damage, then sac the Double ('Lark) to your feeder bringing back Fanatic and Double which copies Reveillark...

this kill uses a min of four slots (Body Double, Reveillark, Carrion Feeder, Mogg Fanatic) as opposed to three but it does not rely on creatures attacking and the only relevant hate that you can really expect to see game one is swords to plowshares, and StP has only a small window in which to cause problems. Also, Body Double does not have his day ruined by things like wasteland as Volrath's Shapeshifter does, and you won't need to worry about drawing extra Dreadnoughts.

Mental

01-28-2008, 12:43 PM

I actually like that kill alot, however, it is vulnerable to GY hate like all our kills. Still, it seems the most solid.

Zach Tartell

01-28-2008, 01:01 PM

Needle stops that combo too. Or, at least more thoroughly than the other one.

sunshine

01-28-2008, 01:16 PM

in regards to graveyard hate and pithing needle...

to be honest most decks will not be running any sort of dedicated graveyard hate in the main deck aside from the possible extirpate which is going to be a problem for any combo deck that utilizes the yard. Aside from that all other hate is going to be boarded in - which is why the transformational sideboard is so effective here. I mean, after comboing off in game one I would looove for my opponent to bring in all his hate so I can just play Stifle/Nought.

@lonelybaritone - Unless you're opponent happens to know you/what you're playing before game one, pithing needle is really no more of a problem for this kill than any other. Nobody will blindly name Carrion Feeder/Mogg Fanatic for pithing needle when facing a board of just polluted deltas and trops - and, as you win on the same turn both come into play they really have no chance to use pithing needle to stop either. If pithing needle is going to be a factor at all it will be set to bridge 99% of the time.

iOWN

01-28-2008, 01:18 PM

@Sunshine: This has been my problem as well. I have found the Moss land and company just getting in the way of a Stifle-Nought build. There have been games in which I was able to go off early, and those usually went well. But often I would be looking at my options and thinking how much easier it would be to just pay the two mana and two cards to get a Dreadnought to stick or get CounterTop up and running. With all the things the deck can potentially do, I am having to choose which one to pursue, and they all get in the way of the others with situationally inferior cards.

The primary combo is really cool, but I can't decide if it is worth it or not since all the other stuff that we already know is easier to pull off in this very same deck. Is it just Stifle-Nought/CounterTop in an uncomfortable disguise?

I started to have the same issue when I first added the 'Goyfs. I was getting hands with double 'Goyf and protection, winning, and thinking "so why am I playing the combo when I can win with any 'Nought or 'Goyf?" Some may not agree, but I later realized that it all depends on how you decide to play the deck. MossNought is a combo deck, just like Storm (although it may be more closely comparable to Breakfast), and must be played as such. If you get a hand with no chance of comboing, sure, you can't combo. So either decide it will work, or take an aggressive mulligan.

Some decks are easier to beat with the primary combo, and some with StifleNought or Tarmogoyf beatdown. If you decide it that the combo will work better, then set it up. Don't get distracted by all the other good cards. If you were playing Belcher and had a hand of all the best mana sources but no win condition, you wouldn't keep it. This deck is the same, but replace "mana sources" with countermagic and Tarmogoyf.

Try goldfishing the deck instead, only going for the combo. I am still able to get a fairly consistant turn 3-5 win when I focus on it. Occasionally a set of screwy hands or draws will appear, but outside of that, the solid kill is still there. My answer is that the combo is diluted, but only when you play it so. On another note, the combo offers a completely different win condition which the opponent will be tempted to hate out. If they don't, great, and if they do, they have a bunch of cards which do nothing as you beat down with alternate win conditions.

sunshine: The combo is cool, but I'm not sure what advantages it has over Feeder/Kiki/Guide. At minimum, that combo only occupies 3 spots, and dies to all the same hate. Body Snatcher isn't relevant if you don't care about drawing combo pieces. However, both combos still roll to burn, and the pieces are bad on their own.

I recently remembered a combo that we were discussing in the Hulk Flash thread. You used Hulk to fetch Cephalid Illusionist, Nomads En-Kor, and Mogg War Marshal, milled until you hit a Therapy, got a free Therapy, milled into a Dread Return and won. This deck can use Sutured Ghoul, and already has creatures to remove. (So the combo pieces would be Illusionist, En-Kor, Marshal, Dread Return, Sutured Ghoul, and Dragon Breath.) Yeah... lots of dead cards, and I can't figure out what the point is of using a combo to bring in Breakfast, which is just as easy to hardcast. Just thought it was worth a mention, even though it's seemingly terrible.

sunshine

01-29-2008, 08:45 AM

@iown: you're 100% right that this combo takes up more slots than the Feeder/Kiki/Guide kill, and to be honest if I played the Reveillark/Body Double version my combo package would most likely look like this:

OK, the obvious question is why play two Body Doubles instead of one. Playing two copies of Body Double actually allows you to do some crazy stuff, but probably the greatest upside is it makes you immune to burn/traditional creature kill.

Any removal that sends creatures to the yard can not stop this combo unless you happen to have drawn all four dreadnoughts. StP can stop the combo but only in the marginal case where the opponent has two instant speed removal spells in hand, is able to cast both through counters, and plays them in the correct order: i.e. they burn/smother/swords your Feeder in response to you sacrificing the Body Double, you proceed to fetch Dreadnought and Reveillark, they RfG the Lark. This still leaves you with a Dreadnought in play and Reveillark's leave play trigger on the stack which will most likely get you Body Double (hulk) and Feeder, which is not exactly a horrible situation.

I said that having two Body Doubles allows you to do some crazy stuff:
-fetch Double (hulk) + Carrion Feeder
-sac Double
-fetch Double (hulk) -- let's assume you've drawn the Fanatic or opt for a different kill...
-sac Double
-fetch Reveillark, sac it
-return both Body Doubles to play, one copies 'Lark the other copies Hulk.

you can now infinitly recur the two Body Doubles to put all creatures in your library with cc less than seven into play (don't forget you're also left with two Body Double's most likely set to Dreadnought/Goyf and Reveillark, and a huge Carrion Feeder). If you opted to play a haste enabler instead of Fanatic you can swing this turn for the win - though I would still opt for the fanatic.

some advantages over the kiki-kill:
1. instead of Body Snatcher and Benevolend Bodyguard you two copies of Body Double, which are not horrible and can be played through counterbalance in a pinch or even pitched to FoW.

2. you have the option to play Carrion Feeder from your hand should you need to chump something early like a Lackey/Goyf before you go off, you can still combo off with Feeder in the yard - and don't need to worry too much about getting him back in the library.

3. Most importantly, burn and creature removal can't stop you.

So, while this package does use more slots i feel that it is more consistent and resistant to hate. Also, the fact that you are able to play the Feeder and Body Doubles is a definite upside.

I'm sorry for the long post, I just think that there is some potential here and it needs to be fully understood before dismissed.

I do applaud you for the deck idea, I think you’ve done an excellent job.

Bovinious

01-29-2008, 01:49 PM

I think the Reveillark combo is better also, but what happens if you draw one of your pieces? Wouldnt you need a Body Snatcher to pitch it?

I also see that 2 Body Doubles makes elimination almost irrelevent, but Im wondering if you can use 2 Karmic Guide instead, it has a power of 2 so Reveillark can return it, and he doesnt rely on the cards in your GY having abilities so he gets around Yixlid Jailer. Does that work also or am I mistaken?

sunshine

01-29-2008, 05:23 PM

I would say that Body Double is a better option than Karmic guide, if only for the fact that it's a blue card and so you can pitch it to FoW. Also, don't forget you can actually cast the Body Double if you need to. Yes, Karmic Guide gets around Yixlid Jailer but I would only really expect to see the Jailer getting boarded in for games two/three in which case I probably sided out the entire combo anyway.

As far as drawing combo pieces goes there's only really one card that you absolutely can't have in hand to "go off" and that's Reveillark. As long as you are smart with your Brainstorms this isn't as much of a problem as I feared it would be. That being said, I'm currently testing a version of this deck that runs 2 Lat-Nam's Legacy which also helps shuffle combo pieces back in (I'm not sold on the card yet, but it's worth considering).

Edit - While I do like the Reveillark combo a lot, I'm still not sure if it's actually any better than the Dracoplasm/Shapeshifter kill.

e1567

02-05-2008, 02:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
Actually, Yulyn may be right:

410.10e Some permanents have text that reads "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ," "As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," "[This permanent] comes into play as . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes into play tapped." Such text is a static ability-not a triggered ability-whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play.

Maybe we can get Akki to clarify?

I have a feeling that even if this is the case, you can grab Nought, Nought, Nought, Shapeshifter, sac Shapeshifter & 1 Nought, leaving 2 nought triggers on the stack, then grab Dracoplasm + whatever (sac the 2 dreadnoughts with triggers still on the stack) for the kill.
It appears that Dracoplasm will die.

This ruling from 2005 is similar to the situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturday School
Q: If Clone is in a graveyard and a player casts Living Death, then what happens to Clone? --Robert N.

A: Players will remove all creature cards in their graveyards from the game. Then they'll sacrifice all creatures they control. Just before the removed creatures come into play, Clone looks around and finds nothing to copy, so it comes into play as a 0/0 and probably dies.

So all of you kinda just skipped over this statement from ewokslayer. This is sort of an issue. If it is true the front post should be changed since it still has the old win condition setup. This deck can still when but you would have to change which of the two hulk triggers you find stuff.

[CENTER][COLOR="Green"][SIZE="5"][FONT="Palatino Linotype"]

[B]How to accomplish: Upon the resolution of Protean Hulk's leaves-play trigger, search for Dracoplasm, Volrath's Shapeshifter, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Sacrifice Dreadnought and Shapeshifter to Dracoplasm, and Dracoplasm will become an 18/18 Flyer. Volrath's Shapeshifter is sacrificed as a copy of Protean Hulk, so his graveyard ability is triggered. Search for Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Flame-Kin Zealot. Sacrifice one Dreadnought to the other to satisfy it's CiP trigger. Zealot then gives your creatures +1/+1 and haste. Swing with a 19/19 Flyer, a 13/13 Trampler, and a 3/3.

iOWN

02-05-2008, 07:27 AM

So all of you kinda just skipped over this statement from ewokslayer. This is sort of an issue. If it is true the front post should be changed since it still has the old win condition setup. This deck can still when but you would have to change which of the two hulk triggers you find stuff.

Oh snap, yeah I forgot to fix that. The currently used combo is fetch 3 Dreadnoughts and a Shapeshifter, sac Shapeshifter + Dreadnought, fetch Dracoplasm (sacrificing either one or two Dreadnoughts) and FKZ, and swing for 26. If you have two, fetch 2 Dreadnought, Shapeshifer, sac Dreadnought + Shapeshifter (to other Dreanought), fetch 'Goyf and FKZ, and swing for around 20.

Will update later, on my way to school.

greenmage

02-10-2008, 09:08 AM

@iown: you're 100% right that this combo takes up more slots than the Feeder/Kiki/Guide kill, and to be honest if I played the Reveillark/Body Double version my combo package would most likely look like this:

OK, the obvious question is why play two Body Doubles instead of one. Playing two copies of Body Double actually allows you to do some crazy stuff, but probably the greatest upside is it makes you immune to burn/traditional creature kill.

Any removal that sends creatures to the yard can not stop this combo unless you happen to have drawn all four dreadnoughts. StP can stop the combo but only in the marginal case where the opponent has two instant speed removal spells in hand, is able to cast both through counters, and plays them in the correct order: i.e. they burn/smother/swords your Feeder in response to you sacrificing the Body Double, you proceed to fetch Dreadnought and Reveillark, they RfG the Lark. This still leaves you with a Dreadnought in play and Reveillark's leave play trigger on the stack which will most likely get you Body Double (hulk) and Feeder, which is not exactly a horrible situation.

I said that having two Body Doubles allows you to do some crazy stuff:
-fetch Double (hulk) + Carrion Feeder
-sac Double
-fetch Double (hulk) -- let's assume you've drawn the Fanatic or opt for a different kill...
-sac Double
-fetch Reveillark, sac it
-return both Body Doubles to play, one copies 'Lark the other copies Hulk.

you can now infinitly recur the two Body Doubles to put all creatures in your library with cc less than seven into play (don't forget you're also left with two Body Double's most likely set to Dreadnought/Goyf and Reveillark, and a huge Carrion Feeder). If you opted to play a haste enabler instead of Fanatic you can swing this turn for the win - though I would still opt for the fanatic.

some advantages over the kiki-kill:
1. instead of Body Snatcher and Benevolend Bodyguard you two copies of Body Double, which are not horrible and can be played through counterbalance in a pinch or even pitched to FoW.

2. you have the option to play Carrion Feeder from your hand should you need to chump something early like a Lackey/Goyf before you go off, you can still combo off with Feeder in the yard - and don't need to worry too much about getting him back in the library.

3. Most importantly, burn and creature removal can't stop you.

So, while this package does use more slots i feel that it is more consistent and resistant to hate. Also, the fact that you are able to play the Feeder and Body Doubles is a definite upside.

I'm sorry for the long post, I just think that there is some potential here and it needs to be fully understood before dismissed.

I do applaud you for the deck idea, I think you’ve done an excellent job.
You can also use bile urchin instead of the fanatic. Just a minor thing, but life loss is generally better than damage. :smile:

And you could run 2 feeders if you still want to be able to go off if you someone swings removal at the first.

Oh, kudus to the creator, eventhough your attempts to abuse hulk are still inferior to mine. :tongue:

Other imput:
Academy rector>deed is just saucy if the board is stuffed with crypts and the like. Academy rector>city of solitude is nice against counter-heavy decks. Should give you more resilience.

rodgon666

02-13-2008, 05:17 AM

is it just me or does it feel like this deck is being diluted way too much? thus making it less consistent and easier to hate out?

I love the first list in the first page, as a matter of fact i think its stronger than the last one i saw here.

its not so focused on the combo kill, it just has it as a secondary kill, or maybe not even that, its like the other kill not coming second to any of the other ones.

i dont know if the creator agrees with my sentiments at all, but as ive been reading along this is just turning out to be a slower flashless deck. Please revert to the first list and improve on that, dont distort the deck too much.

thats just my opinion though... move along now. hahaha

sunshine

02-18-2008, 12:07 AM

after doing a bit of testing I have to agree with you. It seems to me that the compactness of the dracoplasm combo (along with the fact that only one of its pieces is not blue) gives it the nod in this deck. At this point I think our energy is better spent streamlining the "non-combo" portion of the list.

Enjoy your price and I hope that you will continue to post good new deck.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=211467&postcount=10

Jourdelune

Madpeep

02-29-2008, 06:02 PM

Oh snap, yeah I forgot to fix that. The currently used combo is fetch 3 Dreadnoughts and a Shapeshifter, sac Shapeshifter + Dreadnought, fetch Dracoplasm (sacrificing either one or two Dreadnoughts) and FKZ, and swing for 26. If you have two, fetch 2 Dreadnought, Shapeshifer, sac Dreadnought + Shapeshifter (to other Dreanought), fetch 'Goyf and FKZ, and swing for around 20.

Will update later, on my way to school.

If you're going to do that, why not just drop out the Dracoplasm and attack for 29 with two Noughts (26 Trample) and the FKZ (3)?

Off of the Hulk, search for 2 Noughts and a Shapeshifter, sac a nought and the shapeshifter to the other nought. Now find two more noughts and the FKZ, sac another nought. Attack for 29. There's no need for the Draco. Free up the slot for something else.

Jaynel

02-29-2008, 06:11 PM

You only have 3 (at the most) Dreadnoughts to search for off of Protean Hulk. You blew one in order to activate Mosswort Bridge, remember?

Michael Keller

02-29-2008, 09:00 PM

Congrats on the deck - you deserve it!

Isamaru

03-01-2008, 12:50 AM

Congrats on the deck - you deserve it!
Yes, live a little! Let loose - You deserve it!

And besides, Inertia is a property of matter.

nupert

03-03-2008, 09:44 AM

Yesterday I built the deck and wanted to draw some hands. The first (and actually only) one was this:

I thought I could keep this hand if there only was one fetchable red source in this deck. I'd play Volrath's Shapeshifter. Next turn discard Protean Hulk, play Dracoplasm with the red source, sacrificing the shapeshifted Hulk. I'd search for 2x Phyrexian Dreadnought and Flame-Kin Zealot. Then I'd attack with a flying 7/7, a 13/13 with trample and a 3/3 on turn 4. It bothers me, that I can't hardcast Dracoplasm.

Is this an issue that should be discussed, or is this situation too unusal?

Isamaru

03-03-2008, 01:09 PM

Good luck getting to 4 mana with a Tropical Island, a red Dual, and 2 other lands from Fetchlands as your 4 lands. Wasteland, Stifle, and Blood Moon do exist... and countering Blood Moon would cost you one of the blue cards in that hand.

In other words... if you are already losing to those cards with all nonbasics, you may as well play the red dual and simply continue to do so (since there is no way around it in this deck) since it will let you then also play the Dracoplasm. Then again, creature removal at any time would stop the scenario you described anyway.

Also, I would have thrown that hand back because it has nothing to actually put on the board in the first few turns (Threshold is allowed to do this since the rest of their hand is counterspells) and would probably pack it to a fast aggro deck, a Gempalm, a Lackey, etc.

Why has the only part of this deck that's been discussed the combo part? Having a combo is great and all, but not if you have no plan B for when (not if) it is disrupted. The Goldfishing part of the deckbuilding process is done, or should have been. I don't want to be negative, but it is probably a good idea to be realistic.

sunshine

03-10-2008, 10:52 PM

apparently a MossNaught build made top eight at the hadley tournament just last weekend, any chance we could get a decklist and maybe some match reports? I heard something about standstills?

iOWN

03-10-2008, 11:13 PM

I've been a little out of it... back to posting.

nupert: Splashing for a single card isn't worth it. More often the situation will arise when you have a Shapeshifted Hulk and a 'Nought, which can be hardcasted easily. It's possible to replace the black splash with red (as red has plenty of other options), but in my opinion LDV and Deed will remain the superior choice, and the mana base is not even close to being able to support four colors.

The combo is kept minimal, not because it isn't important, but because it is equally as important as the other routes, and should be treated as such. Even with more than three dead cards, you begin to have bad draws; even four is pushing it. I feel that the current combo is resilient enough to pass, that it's compact, and that the combo pieces could be worse when drawn.

sunshine: I'm not sure about that... it looks like Dreadstill did. I wasn't able to go, and I don't think many people are playing MossNought at the moment.

thefreakaccident

03-10-2008, 11:59 PM

Is it just me, or would fling be amazing in this deck?

You can fling-nought for 12 damage, or use it as a later game sac outlet to hulk... It can also make goyfs just that more deadly (should you choose to run them), as a couple swings and they will have to try to stabalize at 10 or so.

Mental

03-11-2008, 12:25 AM

Is it just me, or would fling be amazing in this deck?

You can fling-nought for 12 damage, or use it as a later game sac outlet to hulk... It can also make goyfs just that more deadly (should you choose to run them), as a couple swings and they will have to try to stabalize at 10 or so.

And splash red for what else?

System_X

03-12-2008, 04:10 AM

What about Vials in this deck? Vial a Dreadnought to another, get around counters, fix colors and reduce mana requirements.

Deep6er

03-12-2008, 07:11 PM

Tried that. Doesn't work as well as you might want. The creatures that you want to Vial in don't have similar costs.

the deck did well my one loss come to a homebrew type deck with wastelands sinkholes and hand diruption. my wins were vs red thresh white thresh and a white weenie deck. the deck can easily go agrro plan which is very nice. i can figure out if the red board is worth it or if thoughtseize is just better than red blast. also clasm is not needed against aggro u can just go stifle naught and win. any help on changes would be nice thanks

sunshine

03-20-2008, 09:36 PM

congrats on doing well with the deck, any chance we could get a run down of how the games played out? Did you have any trouble finding combo pieces without LDV?

e_hawk77

03-21-2008, 02:31 AM

sure i can do that for ya.

rd 1 rebel stompy (like angel stompy but with rebels)

this guy has been playing this deck for year with good success. so it is very tuned and has good match ups vs landstill and thresh.

game 1

game 1 he keeps a questionable hand that is good vs thresh and he assumes that is what i was playing since he saw me borrow stifle and goyfs from a friend. he wins the die roll and plays wasteland and a aether vial. i play trop and top. he lets the vial go to one and plays a plains and wastes my trop. i play mosswart bridge and hide hulk (lucky but it could have easily been stifle or another nought cuz i had one in hand). he put another counter on his vial and then plays tithe for another plains then drop mother of ruins. i top on upkeep and get a force just incase he has swords then drop island for turn. he misses his land drop but has a vial on three and passes. i top end of turn and find a third land and play it and combo out and kill him.

he plays a vial this time i have force. i play needle on wasteland. he gets a whipcorder. i play goyf which isn't very good vs a whipcorder. then for the next few turn we stare at each other. he gets down a negator lucky for me though i get a nought and a stifle. he is still making it hard due to the whipcorder but a few turns later i find a pyroclasm and shortly after that he dies.

match 2

red thresh

game1

we both mull. i win the die roll. i start off with fetch for an island. he plays mongoose i brainstorm then i daze it. replay island he plays ponder then land. i then play mosswort (hulk) with stifle back up for the wastes he plays. he doesn't hit a wasteland and plays goyf and i let it resove. then i combo out the next turn after forcing his force.

his one land hand mean that he has a goyf and like 28 counterspells. he plays ponder into land and then goyf which i try to daze and he dazes mine. then i play nought and then stifle and he forces that i daze force and he dazes daze. then i play goyf and he snares. i try for goyf number 2 and he snares. then i die.

game 3

i just decide to go for it. i play mosswort find stifle. then i play nought with stifle in hand stifle the trigger he dazes and i force he plays land i swing he plays brainstorm and doesn't find a grip i win.

uw thresh

game 1

this game was weird all he really did was play a counterbalance and we fought over it i won that battle and he really didn't do anything else and i killed him with two goyfs.

sb 2 in 2 k. grip 3 red blast out same as before but island not trop

game 2

we fight over a counterbalance again he wins but his hand is very low. i draw k. grip and hit counterbalance with it. his next two draws are mages how dumb. they name nought then explosives. lucky for me i am drawing bad this game lol. i play shapeshifter then top deck a nought and make my shapeshifter huge. he draws swords but i force it and that is the game.

white weenie

game 1
nought plus stifle turn two equal they lose.

game 2
turn one isamaru i have island ponder
turn two priest i have bridge (hulk)
turn three morph i have combo

top 8

i play vs homebrew

i play trop and pass he play ritual duress hymm
i play island he plays ritual duress sinkhole wasteland
i play volc he play waste
i miss land drop he plays ritual negator

games two

pretty much the same as the first

i feel top is better than lim duls vault. the vault is good if you can set up with it but is almost like a dead card if you are going the aggro way for the win. also top is a ponder when ever you need it. and you get to set up for multiple turns if you wanna.
but i had a bunch of turn 3 wins and didn't need the lim dul for it.

e_hawk77

03-21-2008, 02:34 AM

i think im gonna either run black for discard and extirpates in the board or keep this list but cut visions and a daze for misdirection.

Peter_Rotten

03-21-2008, 09:19 AM

We're pleased to see some new members posting on The Source, but the mod staff would like to remind everyone of the Site Rules. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=174032#post174032) In particular, reference the rules about using capitals and avoiding double posts.

Bane of the Living

03-22-2008, 12:50 AM

I played the deck at the Hadley tournament and went 2-2, deciding to drop to play in the side event. I wasn't very pleased with LDV since the groups of each five cards would have none of the right cards in each pile. Like if I had a bridge I would never find a pile with Hulk and Nought. Or if I had Hulk I could never find Brainstorm and Bridge. Ect.. LVD wasn't as "Tinker" style as I needed it to be, just as it was when it just needed to find Flash.

Im trying Transmute Artifact as a way to "tinker" out the colossus. You obviously dont need Stifle just it's a :u::u: card that you'll easily play around Wastelands. In decks more focused on keeping Naught you have a much better tutor than Trinket Mage.

This deck has a weak spot against Extirpate. I think Counterbalance would be the best way to go about it. If Counterbalance Top combo and Transmute Artifact can solidify the deck (in mono blue) then maybe we dont even need goyfs??

laststepdown

03-22-2008, 03:45 AM

Congrats on the win, happy to see this deck get noticed.

sunshine

03-26-2008, 10:39 PM

@Bane of the living:

I like the idea of using Transmute Artifact, just not sure how that gets around the need for stifle? I think transmuting the nought into play would still trigger his ability.

Also going mono blue is tough as the Bridge needs green mana...

adrieng

04-01-2008, 12:36 PM

I am testing a different version of mossnought.
I am playing instead of protean hulk which is rarely a card useful on his own greater good.
So you can draw 12 cards discard three and the kill is a one of sutured ghoul and a one of shallow grave.
I also am playing trinket mage as a four of.
The list is something like
-4 protean hulk + 4 greater good
- 1 zealoth -1 dracoplasme +1 sutured ghoul +1 shallow grave
-4 ponder
-4 daze
+4 trinket mage
+2 lands
+2 spell snare
the big difference is that greater good is good on his own and can win you the game the turn after it is in play.

Media314r8

04-01-2008, 11:04 PM

@ greater good:

It seems like If I resolve this /moss it in, I'm allready winning hardcore, and it might as well be trickbind, as I could actualy CAST trickbind on naught. IMO it's a win-more, granted, its a WIN LIKE HELLA MORE DRAW INFINITE CARDS ZOMG I HAVE WIN IN HAND WITH 48/48 hasted ghoul and 3 force backup.

Fun to play, but there's probably a better card for the slot... granted it is more castable than hulk, and takes up less card slots for the 'combo' win. IDK, this whole concept just seems like a slightly weaker counter-top-stifle-naught with an alternative combo win.

adrieng

04-02-2008, 01:28 PM

It is not at all a win one more card.
You leave of the card :the four dead cards which are four protean hulk and remplace them with something that you can hardcast and still make you win the game : greater good.It is a great improvement.

Within the first few games of testing it became all too obvious that the deck simply could not ignore Blood Moon effects - at the very least the deck needed a reliable way to get a basic Forest into play. To make a long story short I ended up dropping the black splash to experiment with Wooded Foothills (a white splash for Windswept Heath could be interesting too). Once the mana base was reconfigured to deal with moon effects it wasn't too much of a leap to try out magus in the board, he has truly been a champ in some of the tougher MUs. Another notable change from previous builds is the re-inclusion of Worldly Tutor and cutting Hulk down to just two copies. Really you never want to actually draw Hulk and I feel that this configuration has worked out quite well. Postboard, Worldly Tutor can be Magus 5-7 as well as Tarmogoyf or Dreadnought, not to mention being a hard counter for anything with cc up to 3 while Counterbalance is out. I was worried a little at first about cutting LDV but with e_Hawk77's configuration and the added Tutors I would say it's been even easier to assemble to combo.

Right now I would advocate for the red splash though I do think white is worth testing, simply because these two colors allow you to run fetch lands which will get your basic Forest (Also, hardcasting dracoplasm to fly over a moat is funny like woah).

Any thoughts?

iOWN

04-08-2008, 11:38 PM

adrieng: As mentioned in the opening post, I did indeed attempt to build a Greater Good deck at first, but I suppose I didn't give the card enough of a chance in the current shell. While it does allow multiple ways to set up the combo, it warps the main deck considerably.

Shallow Grave requires an additional two mana; meaning to go through Mosswort Bridge, you would need 2GB and the untapped Mosswort. If you hardcast Greater Good you will probably need to wait a turn, as the rest of the combo adds up to 2B. You could perhaps add free mana (Lotus Petals, etc.) back to the deck, but most would agree that this damages the manabase. Feel free to further test Greater Good, but also try to visualize how your plays would change if every Greater Good was a Hulk. I think it could produce interesting results.

Any thoughts?

Point taken about the basic forest. I do find myself in a "do or die" situation when facing a Moon. Stifle-Nought is still an option, but against DS, Moon + Chalice @ 1 is a lock. So you're correct in saying that the basic forest is important. A blue/green fetch would be so great...

Anyways, this all depends on your metagame. In my opinion, LDV and Pernicious Deed are both amazing cards to splash for; but as most of the deck is either green or blue, the splash is easily interchangeable. If you do need to prepare for Blood Moon effects, or even heavy LD, the Forest is certainly worth running. However, I'm not sure I would go so far as to running Magus in the 'board... it would only be useful against Landstill, and even then you've just shut off half of your deck and can no longer Fetch basics.

gobblor

04-10-2008, 12:49 PM

This is what I don't understand. Im fairly new to the game so just an explanation would be good. Ok so you play dreadnaught then activate the bridge playing hulk, then you sacrifice hulk and dreadnaught to its ability but you would have to sac the hulk first because if you sacced the dreadnaught first you would have already sacraficed a total power of 12. So you go and get naughts and shapeshifters but since your top card of your graveyard is a dreadnaught and not hulk how does the combo work since the shapeshifter is copying a dreadnaught? Or am I missing something or can you sac the naught to itself and still sacc the hulk?

94teen

04-10-2008, 04:23 PM

you technically sacrifice both at the same time, because the creatures don't hit the graveyard until the ability resolves.

Then the game sees that two creatures want to go to the graveyard, and you get to choose the order that they go to the graveyard in.

I believe this is how this works.

sunshine

04-13-2008, 03:41 PM

I think what you're missing is that dreadnought lets you sacrifice creatures with total power 12 or more so you can sac both creatures to his ability.

georgjorge

04-13-2008, 05:30 PM

Given that you can only combo off turn three at the soonest, how does the deck ever handle Krosan Grip, which destroys both your primary and your secondary path to winning and is widely played ? Maybe some Thoughtseizes or Xantid Swarms might be of use...

sunshine

04-14-2008, 10:44 AM

A well timed Krosan Grip does mess things up for your combo - leaving you with just a Protean Hulk in play at the worst (which isn't horrible). I would say that most decks aren't playing Grip maindeck and I usually side the combo out for the second and third games anyway - If you're worried about Krosan Grip and you've boared in the Counterbalance/Top engine chances are you're trying to keep a 3cc card on top of your library to protect Counterbalance anway.

Rood

05-29-2008, 07:06 PM

Has a red splash for REBs/Firesprouts been considered for the sideboard?
/necro

sunshine

05-30-2008, 02:52 AM

I know people were happy with the whole dracoplasm combo package, but just to consider:

sac Hulk into painter's servant and trinket mage (->grindstone) could be interesting. You would have to rework the main deck a little bit... Just throwing it out there.

hypeiv

06-01-2008, 01:53 AM

you can transmute Tolaria West into mosswort

Vacrix

06-01-2008, 03:20 AM

absolute genius.

it looks dam amazing. reminds alot of c-breakfast with the protection and all.

i think that this will have trouble against The Rock variants with gofy and discard and all. not exactly sure wat to call it.
you will run into sinkholes, wastelands, deeds, extirpates, duress's, cabal therapies, hymns, hippies and possibly braids. i think that this match up is definetly one worth mentioning because they essential run at least 30 cards that you never want to see. how do u think the counter top board will do against that?

i believe that if this deck gets good, then The Rock G/B deck variants will also become better. you mite have just altered the format entirely.

i havent read over the rest of this thread's posts but here are some ideas:
aether vial (great against control for setting up the win)
summoner's pact (im not sure if u win the turn u resolve your combo but if u do then this would be ideal for finding the hulk)
echoing truth (against meddling mage)
thought seize, duress, cabal therapy (if u want extra protection, maybe consider running this, since you have black)
trinket mage (fetching pithing needles, dread noughts, sensei's diving tops, and engineered explosives seems ideal in certain match ups)
ESG, lotus petal, or chrome mox (i cant remember if you are running these or not but i dont think you are. test it maybe. it could speed up your game by enough to make aggro obsolete)
chalice of the void (you are never too good for chalice. especially if you can fetch it with a mage)
phyrexian negator (im just throwing it out there. but you have a fairly good game against control with your protection. but if you have black, and extra space this wouldnt hurt against your landstill/mono blue match ups. test it.)

On the other hand, black-based decks don't actually give me trouble. The hardest match-ups, by far, are Dragon Stompy and Landstill (Landstill actually needs to be tested more -- it may not be as bad as it once seemed).

I haven't been able to attend many tournaments recently, unfortunately: only three locals and a tournament in Hadley. Including two t4s at the local (which doesn't say much) and 3-3 at Hadley. The 3-3 at Hadley was actually much better than it may seem; I started out 3-0, and then proceeded to lose 1-2 to TES (Bryant) who gave me amazing tiebreakers, 1-2 to Dragon Stompy (Slay), and 0-2 to Threshold (Nickrit). Winning any of those three would have guaranteed a spot in the t8, but I basically crapped out near the end of the day.

There has been someone t8ing at 20-something person tournaments. (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16798) Not exactly sure where these tournaments took place, but he t8ed at the two most recent ones (6 + 7 Torneo Liga Petrerense Legacy).

I've been having a lack of good ideas lately... so my list has remained looking the same.

Any updates on this deck? I rarely hear about it or seen it played in tournaments. Is this deck totally off the radar for any particular reason? I remember hearing people rave about it.

iOWN

09-07-2008, 05:04 PM

Any updates on this deck? I rarely hear about it or seen it played in tournaments. Is this deck totally off the radar for any particular reason? I remember hearing people rave about it.

Afaik, yes, very few people play it. People have opted towards Dreadstill, and Dreadstill/g is extremely similar to MossNought, some of the only differences being no combo (w/ maindeck countertop), and the Standstill/Manland engine. Dreadstill is more appealing to play, especially because of its tournament results.

For those who were earlier skeptical of the usefulness of the combo: the more and more I play this deck, the more I disagree. Hate for Dreadnought is so common that most games in which I resolve a Stifle-Nought have barely begun. The main selling point to comboing off is that it's a one-turn clock; going off against a tapped-out opponent is simply easier than protecting Dreadnought for 3 turns. At GenCon I probably won more games via combo than a stifled 'nought.

MTG Guru

09-07-2008, 06:35 PM

What were your overall results at Gencon? I brought up the subject becuase I believe this deck has great potential.

iOWN

09-07-2008, 07:10 PM

2nd in the 40-person prelim (lost to konsultant at 2 in the morning), 4-3-1 in the actual event (frowns), and X-1 in the Legacy event the next day (lost to konsultant again).

In the main event I lost to Landstill twice, 1-2 both times. I was hoping to see scrubs, random aggro, or even Goblins... didn't happen. :P