i think this is way more than a bad date and while maybe not assault in the purest sense of the word, i think this was a nonconsensual encounter and definitely sexual coercion. she told him no both verbally and nonverbally and he repeatedly kept making advances and even at times physically moving her hand to his dick, etc.

i know i have been in situations where i have kept talking to a guy/physically touched him because i was uneasy or unafraid and i wanted to end the encounter without upsetting him because i feared what he would do (thankfully, the worst time this happened to me it was just a hug goodbye, and it was not anything more sexual but i was very shaken up afterwards because of what happened prior). i think this is also why some women do not say things directly to men - the fear of how they will react to rejection, especially strangers you do not know. this is why i do not answer catcallers because i do not know how a man on the street will face rejection if i tell him to fuck off.

in this situation, aziz has the power because he is someone the person admires with money/fame, and he has made a career out of being portrayed as a likable, 'woke' millennial. it is easy to criticize the woman for continuing to engage him, but in this situation he holds the power and he repeatedly kept saying things like "okay, we will just chill" and then asking for a blow job. throughout this encounter, he kept feeling entitled to her body even when it was clear she was not comfortable.

if i was in that situation, i would hope i would have the courage to leave, but in practice its very difficult when you are uncomfortable and out of your element, especially if someone has a 'nice guy' image or disarming personality.

here is an article i read that sums up my feelings on this better than i can.

"People think that it’s the sex that’s the assault, but it’s not. It’s the ignoring a person’s feelings that is assaultive. When someone ignores your discomfort, pushes themselves across one of your boundaries, or disregards your “no”, they have revealed they are willing to assault you. They might not be willing to be violent to accomplish it, but they’re sure as fuck willing to use subterfuge, disrespect, and psychological warfare to be able to do it."

With regard to this specific encounter, the girl does not indicate that she was afraid of him in any way. She may not have had the courage to leave initially because she was starstruck (I also think the 10-11 year age difference was a factor). She had no problem leaving at the end. I assume it was because he pushed her patience and also because he did not appear to be a threat. I am not saying he had the right to act the way he did - he was indeed a jerk. As far as it being a scary situation - no.

From the article FG posted above:

A guy I knew very well once spent the better part of several days begging me for sex. I was visiting from out of town, and staying in a house where he lived with several other friends of mine....I didn’t consent. I said no and then I said no and then I said…fine. I’ll do this one thing. If you’ll just please leave me alone....I gave in because he was relentless and exhausting and manipulative and because saying “no”, and holding that “no” in the face of someone deeply resistant, is exhausting. And dispiriting. I was sleep deprived from his relentlessness, away from home and and feeling unmoored, invalidated, and deeply frustrated. I gave in because having to keep fighting him was pretty much just as traumatic as doing what it took to make him stop begging.

Again, specifically in the Aziz situation, I have a hard time with this rationale. (I also don't think either situation involves coercion.)

The two sides to a story thing only lends itself to false narratives like those so often trotted out under the he-said, she-said trope. Even the thread title sets up this kind of false choice. Narratives are always multiple, always embedded with assumptions and prejudices.

My greater hope in the light of #metoo, the floodgates that've opened post-Weinstein, and so on is that we develop not only our will/capacity to hold people accountable for clearly criminal behavior but also our ability to envision/enact more ethical sexual relations (in a sense of power parity in particular).

tvrec wrote:The two sides to a story thing only lends itself to false narratives like those so often trotted out under the he-said, she-said trope. Even the thread title sets up this kind of false choice. Narratives are always multiple, always embedded with assumptions and prejudices.

My greater hope in the light of #metoo, the floodgates that've opened post-Weinstein, and so on is that we develop not only our will/capacity to hold people accountable for clearly criminal behavior but also our ability to envision/enact more ethical sexual relations (in a sense of power parity in particular).

Well said tvrec. ^This is the best piece I have read on the issue.

A few excerpts from it:

...The sexual encounter Grace described falls into what I see as a gray area of violating, noncriminal sex ― the kind of sex that Rebecca Traister described in 2015 as “bad in ways that are worth talking about”; what Jessica Valenti described on Twitter as an interaction that the “culture considers ‘normal,’” but is “oftentimes harmful.”

...I believe that Ansari didn’t realize in the moment that he was ignoring Grace’s cues, nonverbal or otherwise. And that’s part of the problem. “When you have a sexually harmful behavior, we have the assumption that people view these behaviors in the same way,” Maia Christopher, executive director of the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers, told HuffPost last year. But, oftentimes, we don’t. We step into interactions, sexual or otherwise, with different ideas of what constitutes a violation.

As our culture shifts to acknowledge the kinds of violations women have been too scared or discouraged to report, we need to not only make space for more discussion, but update our shared sexual scripts, as well. We need to introduce new language and ways of talking about gray areas that help us to make public the awkward and messy conversations we’ve been forced to have in private.

...Acknowledging this dynamic doesn’t require us to label all men monsters or all women “helpless” weaklings in need of a fainting couch. It means that we’ve all grown up with a fucked-up sexual script ― governed by questions like “Did he/she/they say yes?” ― that ultimately works for no one.

Seems like a straight smear job to me...they are naked having oral sex...he trys to go further..she doesn't want to she goes home wtf am I missing? The whole "he kept putting his fingers down my throat" bit just seems a bit much...I know nothing is going in my mouth I don't want multiple times without getting chomped on...when she finally made up her mind that she was done the encounter ended...wtf

farrellgirl99 wrote:I had a long day and am too tired to formulate thoughts but I am all for a reenvisioning of ethical sexual behavior.

I think if the original article had been better written and more thoughtful, a better conversation around this topic as a whole could have been had. the article did a disservice to its topic, i think

I think this is the consensus among my academic feminist colleagues.

I think there are many questions about private sexual behaviour and boundaries and policing and moralizing that will need to be addressed in any attempt to move forward with social changes of this kind. While I'm totally on board with women finally taking control of their bodies, sexual lives, etc., I think as a social phenomenon there are serious questions about naming and shaming, and other tactics that we might want to get clear about as we go forward, because sometimes the attitudes strike me as very similar to the attitudes of anti-sex illiberals from a generation ago. Of course the content is completely different, and the whole idea is to try to make positive changes to the social dynamics of sexual relationships in a way that doesn't challenge sex-positivity. But at the same time, highly publicized social issues like this one are prone to group-think and monomania, which we ought to be wary of, and oppose when it arises.

Also, I can't fucking stand Aziz Ansari. I hate his personality, and always have, and I've always felt like it isn't an act. He *is* that whiny, annoying, childish, needy, etc. And I totally believe that he acted inappropriately with this woman. But the way that article was written was just... god awful. And I'm also not sure that this was a case that needed to be aired publicly, though I think the broader issue itself certainly could benefit from that.

Definitely, I wouldn't go down twice on someone if I felt pressured or uncomfortable. I would not have even gotten inside his apartment. I would have left after dinner if I didn't want anything sexual to happen.My brother was talking about this and how some women have made this a witch hunt. I didn't agree, but after reading this, yeah, I can see how some men are freaking out.

Because of the poor way the article is written, it seems possible to read it as: she did want something sexual to go down, until she wasn't given her choice of wine. Then she made up her mind to sit on the floor and hope for non-sexual sensual mind-reading from a guy she just met, which is a totally adult thing to do and not at all petulant, childish, high maintenance bullshit.

Hype wrote: I'm also not sure that this was a case that needed to be aired publicly, though I think the broader issue itself certainly could benefit from that.

It is not something you want to make public imo, it feels like it came to light because it was someone famous.In my opinion, stuff like this happens all the time (been there), it's not ok but I wouldn't compare it to assault. It does undermine the #Metoo movement imo.These were my thoughts too (taken from the NYT opinion piece):

I am a proud feminist, and this is what I thought while reading the article:

If you are hanging out naked with a man, it’s safe to assume he is going to try to have sex with you.

If the failure to choose a pinot noir over a pinot grigio offends you, you can leave right then and there.

If you don’t like the way your date hustles through paying the check, you can say, “I’ve had a lovely evening and I’m going home now.”

If you go home with him and discover he’s a terrible kisser, say, “I’m out.”

If you start to hook up and don’t like the way he smells or the way he talks (or doesn’t talk), end it.

If he pressures you to do something you don’t want to do, use a four-letter word, stand up on your two legs and walk out his door.

Finally...

But the solution to these problems does not begin with women torching men for failing to understand their “nonverbal cues.” It is for women to be more verbal. It’s to say, “This is what turns me on.” It’s to say, “I don’t want to do that.” And, yes, sometimes it means saying goodbye.