I signed, but I have a feeling the white house is going to default to these terms on the participation page:

To avoid the appearance of improper influence, the White House may decline to address certain procurement, law enforcement, adjudicatory, or similar matters properly within the jurisdiction of federal departments or agencies, federal courts, or state and local government in its response to a petition.

If you want something more than a circus, then provide actual citations on what is going wrong and what you want changed. Don't let your enthusiasm carry you to to point where you post an information-free online petition.

Another Pretentious Nickname:Also, leaning on a little bit of credibility as a cancer survivor, take your cancer alarmism about these things and shove it directly up your ass. It's not credible and it's not proportional. If you want to ban scanners for cancer risk you'd have to ban air travel entirely. Not to mention cell phones, WiFi, and probably chocolate cake.

Father died of cancer, both grandfathers died of cancer, my sister (at 22) had cancer. I prefer to avoid X-Ray machines operated by inexperienced, under-paid, and under-qualified personnel who may or may not have properly calibrated it that morning and have, in the last decade, developed a "stellar" reputation for maintaining and operating complicated pieces of equipment. What's more, since it's government operated, in the event they do fark up I have almost no recourse to redress my injury.

In any event, to match your tone, shut the fark up you ignorant prick.

JackieRabbit:The court has ruled and if the TSA has not complied with the court's order, it is a matter for the court to hold them in contempt and enjoin them to cease and desist in their use of the scanners until it's order has been satisfied. I cannot see how a petition can help here. The Office of the President of the United States cannot be compelled to action by a citizen petition. But the voting booth can. (make that should)

If you want something more than a circus, then provide actual citations on what is going wrong and what you want changed. Don't let your enthusiasm carry you to to point where you post an information-free online petition.

"The TSA has ignored a court order for the last 18 months" is an insufficient indicator of "what is going wrong"?

This is clearly not true. That's an ongoing legal debate. Here's a google: google

AND they have cost us $2.4 billion

I don't like this either.

[citation]

they have never even once uncovered a bomb.

Is that because they don't work, or because people don't wear bombs and get scanned? Have they uncovered guns? Knives? A bomb isn't the only thing to worry about on a plane--the 9/11 folks didn't have a single bomb, either.

Guns, knives, and box-cutters would all be caught by metal detectors.

This is pure pork money.

At that level, almost all money is.

It seems to be a giant amount of money being paid for unnecessary and carcinogenic machines, in a situation where former administration officials are getting paid a lot of money to convince their friends to buy them. I call that pork.

qorkfiend:JackieRabbit: The Office of the President of the United States cannot be compelled to action by a citizen petition.

Who said anything about compulsion?

The petition is to the Obama administration, which means that the president may never even know about it. Some aid (or the TSA even) can just round file it. Even is he does see it, he can simply look at it and say "so what?" and get on with his day. He isn't require to take any action on it or even to acknowledge it. That is what I meant by he cannot be compelled. For such a citizen campaign to successful, it would require a lot more than some 20K-odd signatures. A media blitz to raise awareness and put political pressure on the president would also be needed. but you just never know what President Obama is going to decide to pay attention to in an election year. However, given that the TSA works for him and they are not complying with a year-old court order, he isn't in the best position to draw too much attention to this himself. He knows Mitt Romney would be all over him, if he did so.

arethereanybeernamesleft:Is that because they don't work, or because people don't wear bombs and get scanned? Have they uncovered guns? Knives? A bomb isn't the only thing to worry about on a plane--the 9/11 folks didn't have a single bomb, either.

You know what else detected guns and knives? Metal detectors. Which were used in every airport before 9/11 and they didn't irradiate every passenger.

The 9/11 perpetrators got on planes at airports where security was the worst. That is, human error, not failing machines, allowed 9/11 to happen.

Additionally, if a bunch of people with box cutters get up and try to take over an airplane in today's environment:1) They have a high degree of probability of being shot by a Sky Marshall.2) There's no way they're getting through the secured cabin with box cutters.3) The other passengers are going to punk them out before anything really bad will happen.

JackieRabbit:The petition is to the Obama administration, which means that the president may never even know about it. Some aid (or the TSA even) can just round file it. Even is he does see it, he can simply look at it and say "so what?" and get on with his day. He isn't require to take any action on it or even to acknowledge it. That is what I meant by he cannot be compelled.

I didn't ask you what you meant by "cannot be compelled". I asked, "Who said anything about compulsion?"

Has anyone indicated that the President would be required to act on this petition? I'll give you a hint: no, they have not.

spiderpaz:aseras: Boxingoutsider: This is a stupid idea. Planes are incredibly high value targets for terrorists and this is a great way to intimidate them. You don't like it, don't fly. Drive, walk, swim, whatever. 4th amendment doesn't apply IMO as its a voluntary activity that has been attacked many times over the last 40 years.

Dumbfarks like you are the reason the 4th amendment is dying. Because you let them take it away. Terrorists don't give a shiat about laws. Governments are the biggest terrorists there are, and always have been. By your logic virtually every daily activity is voluntary. They can take it away too and they are working damn hard to be able to do so.

OMFG just pick one instead of biatching about everything chicken little:

1) Scanners2) Intrusive pat downs that slow down lines and drive costs up3) Nothing - which means terrorists will be able to easily get knifes and bombs on the plane with you and your kids (a side benefit is that this is the cheapest option per ticket)

Don't be such a goddamn baby, demanding a magic bullet when none exists.

The regular metal detectors were not a problem. We don't HAVE to have backscatter x-ray hi-tek OO WOW scanners. And the old x-ray machines to check your luggage also worked fine.

What slows things down at the current TSA Security Theater is: having to take off your shoes, belt, jacket, put your laptop in a separate container and out of its case, put them all on the belt, walk through the detector and then...pick up your shoes, belt jacket, laptop and carryon, grab them and get out of the way of the next person trying to get through the detector, put on your shoes, belt, jacket, stuff the computer back in its case, and hope you can still make your flight. THAT is what makes this process so onerous and ridiculous.

The backscatter scanners are only in place because somebody thought up a way someone MIGHT be able to get a weapon onto a plane and then sold the government on the idea that this was the way to stop something that has never happened. And because everyone is so scared of teh terrists, they went for it. What happened instead is that IF anyone was planning to blow up a plane by hiding a grenade in his rectum, which nobody ever has, they had to think of a new way. All this security theater nonsense has done is dream up new ways someone "MIGHT" hijack a plane and then react as if it had been done. If someone ever comes up with the idea to hijack a plane by smuggling live snakes onboard inside those spring-snake practical joke containers--we'll next see a ban on any peanuts in containers larger than 2 oz., and a ban on snake-patterned clothing in case someone sees it and panics.

If you want something more than a circus, then provide actual citations on what is going wrong and what you want changed. Don't let your enthusiasm carry you to to point where you post an information-free online petition.

"The TSA has ignored a court order for the last 18 months" is an insufficient indicator of "what is going wrong"?

Which one. Citation?

I'm not even unsympathetic, but if you can't do your own homework before crafting a petition, don't expect 10,000 people to do it for you before they sign said online petition. You should be the adult in the room. It's your petition.

Do you in fact know the circumstances where ""The TSA has ignored a court order for the last 18 months?"

spiderpaz:OMFG just pick one instead of biatching about everything chicken little:

1) Scanners2) Intrusive pat downs that slow down lines and drive costs up3) Nothing - which means terrorists will be able to easily get knifes and bombs on the plane with you and your kids (a side benefit is that this is the cheapest option per ticket)

Don't be such a goddamn baby, demanding a magic bullet when none exists.

Pretty sure you've forgotten a bunch of other options. I'll add one:4. Metal detectors and x-ray of bags as is standard in most countries and was standard in ours until all of this BS started.

And yes 9/11 was terrible but as many many people have pointed out, it was a failure of the rules: comply with hijackers, box cutters being allowed on planes (which scanners or metal detectors have NOTHING to do with) that caused the problem not.

As always, if the terrorists really wanted to screw our country up they would take the same amount of people used in 9/11, spread them out in the country and then once a month shoot up a mall, theater, school, whatever. Why do we think the airport is some magic place and only there they will strike?

/Eroding civil rights in the name of safety is more dangerous than any terrorist

wineskigolf:What's wrong with the scanning? I go through it at least 4 times a week. It's no big deal.

They're absolutely not maintained or regulated, and NOBODY at the airport can tell you what type of radiation you're getting, how it works, or when it was last checked/calibrated.

Next time you're at the airport, ask the TSA if the machine you're about to walk through is a backscatter X-ray or a millimeter wave scanner, and then watch the dumb look you get. Yes, backscatters only cause 4 more cancers per million people if they fly everyday, but that's IF they're properly regulated and calibrated, which they're NOT. Again, ask the TSA the last time they were calibrated or checked, and watch the dumbfounded look.

That's why I avoid them and take the pat down. There's just too many unknowns surrounding their usage.

qorkfiend:All of you: the point of the petition isn't the scanners or their effectiveness. The point of the petition is to get the TSA to comply with a federal court order. I imagine most of us would be on board with government agencies complying with court orders.

qorkfiend:All of you: the point of the petition isn't the scanners or their effectiveness. The point of the petition is to get the TSA to comply with a federal court order. I imagine most of us would be on board with government agencies complying with court orders.

qorkfiend:All of you: the point of the petition isn't the scanners or their effectiveness. The point of the petition is to get the TSA to comply with a federal court order. I imagine most of us would be on board with government agencies complying with court orders.

Boy you people are farking stupid. You could get 25 million signatures and still nothing would happen. The crooks who made the rapiscanners have paid off the necessary politicians and bureaucrats and money speaks so much louder than stupid little petitions that no one of any importance will farking see it. America is not a democracy or a republic, it is an oligarchy. So unless you have enough money to buy off the right politicians and their flunkies you need to just shut the fark up, eat your shiat sammich, and carry on like a good mindless citizen. If you want proof just look at what happened to the petition to investigate the RIAA for bribing congressmen.

If you want something more than a circus, then provide actual citations on what is going wrong and what you want changed. Don't let your enthusiasm carry you to to point where you post an information-free online petition.

"The TSA has ignored a court order for the last 18 months" is an insufficient indicator of "what is going wrong"?

Which one. Citation?

I'm not even unsympathetic, but if you can't do your own homework before crafting a petition, don't expect 10,000 people to do it for you before they sign said online petition. You should be the adult in the room. It's your petition.

Do you in fact know the circumstances where ""The TSA has ignored a court order for the last 18 months?"

I don't. I am willing to look it up further, but...

It says it exactly where you'd expect - on the farking petition page. It's hilarious to see someone complaining about not doing your homework when crafting a petition, when you haven't bothered to read the petition you're criticizing.

"In July 2011, a federal appeals court ruled that the Transportation Security Administration had to conduct a notice-and-comment rulemaking on its policy of using "Advanced Imaging Technology" for primary screening at airports. TSA was supposed to publish the policy in the Federal Register, take comments from the public, and justify its policy based on public input. The court told TSA to do all this "promptly." A year later, TSA has not even started that public process. Defying the court, the TSA has not satisfied public concerns about privacy, about costs and delays, security weaknesses, and the potential health effects of these machines."

This. And the people who have been staging naked protests lately have had their right to do so upheld by judges citing the 4th amendment.

the car is your property. that's why the 4th amendment applies. reasonable expectation of privacy. furthermore, there is an automobile exception to the search warrant requirement when an officer has cause.

the airport is not your property and provides no reasonable expectation of privacy. furthermore, you have consented to the search by entering the secure area. it's not a matter of 4th amendment applying, it's a matter of satisfying the protections afforded.

oh well... not a big issue to me... unless it actually causes cancer. then i might sign

pute kisses like a man:The My Little Pony Killer: cameroncrazy1984: wineskigolf: Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply

Driving is optional. The 4th amendment still applies there.

This. And the people who have been staging naked protests lately have had their right to do so upheld by judges citing the 4th amendment.

the car is your property. that's why the 4th amendment applies. reasonable expectation of privacy. furthermore, there is an automobile exception to the search warrant requirement when an officer has cause.

the airport is not your property and provides no reasonable expectation of privacy. furthermore, you have consented to the search by entering the secure area. it's not a matter of 4th amendment applying, it's a matter of satisfying the protections afforded.

oh well... not a big issue to me... unless it actually causes cancer. then i might sign

The petition is not about the scanners or their effects. It is about getting federal agencies to comply with court orders.

qorkfiend:JackieRabbit: The petition is to the Obama administration, which means that the president may never even know about it. Some aid (or the TSA even) can just round file it. Even is he does see it, he can simply look at it and say "so what?" and get on with his day. He isn't require to take any action on it or even to acknowledge it. That is what I meant by he cannot be compelled.

I didn't ask you what you meant by "cannot be compelled". I asked, "Who said anything about compulsion?"

Has anyone indicated that the President would be required to act on this petition? I'll give you a hint: no, they have not.

Sigh... I used the verb, he used noun form of the verb. Again to the dictionary:

compel |kəmˈpel|verb ( compels, compelling , compelled ) [ with obj. ]force or oblige (someone) to do something: [ with obj. and infinitive ] : a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions.• bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure: they may compel a witness's attendance at court by issue of a summons.• literary drive forcibly: by heav'n's high will compell'd from shore to shore.ORIGIN late Middle English: from Latin compellere, from com- 'together' + pellere 'drive.'

compulsion |kəmˈpəlSHən|noun1 the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint: the payment was made under compulsion .2 an irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, esp. against one's conscious wishes: he felt a compulsion to babble on about what had happened.ORIGIN late Middle English: via Old French from late Latin compulsio(n-), from compellere 'to drive, force' (see compel) .

Simple. I'm not crazy about some nut who wants to see Allah, Buddha, Brahma, God, Jesus, the Jetsons or whoever blowing me up. Somethings are worth a little invasion of privacy. And, being Canadian we're used to Americans pushing their wants and needs on us even though it inconveniences us. You get used to having your privacy violated. I don't like it anymore than anyone else. But. It's a fact of life. Terrorism is here to stay, this is a way of averting terrorism, so I can put up with it. End of story.

Theaetetus:JackieRabbit: The court has ruled and if the TSA has not complied with the court's order, it is a matter for the court to hold them in contempt and enjoin them to cease and desist in their use of the scanners until it's order has been satisfied. I cannot see how a petition can help here. The Office of the President of the United States cannot be compelled to action by a citizen petition. But the voting booth can. (make that should)

This.

Specifically, the D.C. Circuit ordered the TSA to explain themselves by August 30, last Wednesday. So, your petition is a bit premature.

You're right. But all they have to do is come up with a reason that they haven't done anything. The order you mention doesn't say they have to do anything - just make the explanation.

Dateline 2059: skin cancer rates have skyrocketed in the last decade. AG Bill Clinton II promises to sue scanner makers but speaker of the house John Boehner JR condems the suit saying Americans were well aware of risks in 2012.

wineskigolf:I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.

Since flying is optional, the 4th amendment probably does not apply. I believe that it's already been appealed and turned down.

As for the bombs. i think the word i deterrent.

Both my wife and I spend more time on airplanes than we do at home so this interests me......

I think the point of the petition is that the courts ordered the TSA to "publish the policy in the Federal Register, take comments from the public, and justify its policy based on public input." They have not yet, essentially telling the court to screw off. Signing the petition would request the President put more pressure on them to follow through with the court order.

peterquince:They cause cancer, they probably violate the 4th amendment, they have cost us $2.4 billion, AND they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money. Not to mention the questionable lobbying.

And they let the government see your wiener.

/quoting cuz you probably posted before seeing my first.

Flying causes cancer. We going to outlaw that, too? I doubt these cause more than your cell phone does.

Sorry, I'm not that concerned. It's faster and doesn't require a pat down if I forget to take my watch off. So what if they haven't found a bomb. We haven't had a bomb successfully go through them either, AFAIK. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but it's better than having no security in place, which is our other option.

As for my weiner, it is kind of weird that they keep having to call supervisors and other TSA staff over to look at my scans, I'm assuming the machine is just having a hiccup?

peterquince:Theaetetus: JackieRabbit: The court has ruled and if the TSA has not complied with the court's order, it is a matter for the court to hold them in contempt and enjoin them to cease and desist in their use of the scanners until it's order has been satisfied. I cannot see how a petition can help here. The Office of the President of the United States cannot be compelled to action by a citizen petition. But the voting booth can. (make that should)

This.

Specifically, the D.C. Circuit ordered the TSA to explain themselves by August 30, last Wednesday. So, your petition is a bit premature.

You're right. But all they have to do is come up with a reason that they haven't done anything. The order you mention doesn't say they have to do anything - just make the explanation.

When a judge tells you to do something, you don't do it, and then the judge demands an explanation, then the follow-up is usually telling you to do it and initiating sanctions or contempt proceedings unless you have a really good reason...... and if they have a really good reason, then this petition isn't going to do anything either.

Frankly, I'd give this about two-three months to wait for the D.C. Circuit, and then file it. Or not, depending on what their results are.

Simple. I'm not crazy about some nut who wants to see Allah, Buddha, Brahma, God, Jesus, the Jetsons or whoever blowing me up. Somethings are worth a little invasion of privacy. And, being Canadian we're used to Americans pushing their wants and needs on us even though it inconveniences us. You get used to having your privacy violated. I don't like it anymore than anyone else. But. It's a fact of life. Terrorism is here to stay, this is a way of averting terrorism, so I can put up with it. End of story.

Eh? This petition is only tangentially related to privacy violations...

wineskigolf:I have yet to see a credible study as to the cancer risk. I'm open to reading one if it exists.

The presence of a cancer risk is not up for debate. These devices emit x-rays into live human flesh, which will cause cancer in some of the people exposed, full stop. This same risk applies to medical x-rays and all other emitters of ionizing radiation, including the sun.

The magnitude of the cancer risk is more difficult to answer. If you believe the manufacturer about the operating specs, and assume the machines are working properly and being used as intended (neither of which is monitored in the ways we require for all other x-ray emitters), it's probably not very big*. But as you note there have been no studies -- not because no one cares, or because no one believes there's a risk, but because no study has ever been allowed by the TSA or the manufacturer.

*Also note that even if the actual risk as used is small, which is at least somewhat plausible even in spite of the ridiculous lack of safety controls, it still could be large in comparison to the risk of terrorist attack that this device could prevent, making the device a net loss to the safety of citizens

Mikey1969:peterquince: They cause cancer, they probably violate the 4th amendment, they have cost us $2.4 billion, AND they have never even once uncovered a bomb. This is pure pork money. Not to mention the questionable lobbying.

And they let the government see your wiener.

/quoting cuz you probably posted before seeing my first.

Flying causes cancer. We going to outlaw that, too? I doubt these cause more than your cell phone does.

Sorry, I'm not that concerned. It's faster and doesn't require a pat down if I forget to take my watch off. So what if they haven't found a bomb. We haven't had a bomb successfully go through them either, AFAIK. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but it's better than having no security in place, which is our other option.

As for my weiner, it is kind of weird that they keep having to call supervisors and other TSA staff over to look at my scans, I'm assuming the machine is just having a hiccup?

They refuse to let anyone else test the machiones and their calibration procedures aren't clear.

Gyrfalcon:What slows things down at the current TSA Security Theater is: having to take off your shoes, belt, jacket, put your laptop in a separate container and out of its case, put them all on the belt, walk through the detector and then...pick up your shoes, belt jacket, laptop and carryon, grab them and get out of the way of the next person trying to get through the detector, put on your shoes, belt, jacket, stuff the computer back in its case, and hope you can still make your flight. THAT is what makes this process so onerous and ridiculous.

Not really.

I always end up waiting when I get ot he metal detector. And the few times I was selected to go throug the scanner (I declined) theu told me to wait in a line to go through.

Dog Welder:Additionally, if a bunch of people with box cutters get up and try to take over an airplane in today's environment:1) They have a high degree of probability of being shot by a Sky Marshall.2) There's no way they're getting through the secured cabin with box cutters.3) The other passengers are going to punk them out before anything really bad will happen.

oh yeah, I also always opt out of the scanners, on account it really pisses 'em off to see a citizen exercising their right to opt out. Plus I like to make the pat-downer uncomfortable by never wearing a bra when I fly so she's forced to touch my unbridled boobies.

Yes, slow. It takes 5 seconds or less to walk through a metal detector. Unless you're flying amateur hour, frequent flyer bags with a computer, underwear, socks and shirt (a suit jacket and pants can go a week, hotel laundry takes care of the off-day shirt and can dryclean overnight in a pinch) move right through the xray machine at the same pace.

Until one of these idiotic scanners is put into use to constipate the whole system. Even when I'm flying with the kids (making me one of the slow clots in the system with overstuffed bags and not enough hands to get my shoes off) I regularly see bags languishing on the port side of the belt while their owners wait for the guy who needs a pat down because he had a tissue in his pocket to get the fark out of the way.

Give me Total Recall (original) style scanners that do their job without making you break stride and I'm all in.