2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Tuesday, April 12, 2011

The Tithe Turns the Gospel Into Bad News to the Poor: Obama's Church Asks the Poor to Tithe, and Then Some

As you see above, even President Obama's old church, Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, formerly pastored by Jeremiah Wright, has a pastor who tells the poor in his congregation they must tithe to receive God's blessings - and they embarked on a campaign to get people to give MORE than the tithe. This campaign of "next level giving" is the pathway to more and more of God's material blessings.

The tithing doctrine knows no bounds. It doesn't matter if the church is a Southern Baptist mega or micro. It can be a huge emergent church, or it can be in the chapel of a baptist seminary. It is taught by the Mormons. Even Islam requires a percentage of gain from its faith community. Even the ancient Mesopotamians had their God, "Marduke the Moon God" require a tithe of his subjects.

"If a believer wishes to tithe out of a personal decision or conviction, that is fine. Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God's command, binding upon every believer. Under the Old Testament system, tithing was good news to the poor. However, in our day, mandatory tithing equals oppression to the poor. Not a few poor Christians have been thrown into deeper poverty because they have felt obligated to give beyond their means."

And so it is today. Even Paige Patterson told his poor seminary students they are poor because they rob God of the tithe. He said he had to borrow money at times to keep his tithe commitment. He said God CANNOT bless someone who is not tithing. Is that the message to Christians? Borrow if you have to because that is the requirement for God to bless you? Put your tithe on your credit card?

Viola and Barna continue:

"[Christians] have been told if they do not tithe, they are robbing God and breaking his command. In such cases, the gospel is no longer 'good news to the poor'. Rather it becomes a heavy burden. Instead of liberty, it becomes oppression. We are so apt to forget that the original tithe that God established for Israel was to benefit the poor, not hurt them!"

Indeed, and this makes it quite disturbing when you see an inner-city church that has so many poor people, when their wealthy preacher stands in front of them to teach the 10% tithe is the beginning point to trusting God, and giving above the tithe is the pathway to prosperity. The preacher in the video is communicating during his illustration that if you give ABOVE the tithe, God will give you MORE and thus you can give more. I wonder if this pastor would recommend people on welfare to tithe out of their poverty? I've heard a Southern Baptist preacher in Nashville recently recommend that. It is all prosperity gospel.

So while tithing is bad news to the poor, it is good news to the rich in modern day America, as Barna and Viola write:

"Conversely, contemporary tithing is good news to the rich. To a high earner, 10 percent is a paltry sum. Tithing, therefore, appeases the consciences of the prosperous without impacting their lifestyle."

I would take this a step further, it is a doctrine that allows pastors of very large churches to amass huge personal fortunes through the generosity of their followers. If these wealthy mega church pastors actually followed the principles of giving in the New Testament rather than the Old, they would give most of their fortune away and live more modest lives. No better example of this is Obama's church, Trinity United Church of Christ: the church built their pastor, Jeremiah Wright, a 1.6 million dollar home. Must have taken quite a bit of yam tithing to buy that house!

Bad Combination:The congregation is biblically illiterate.The pastor is self-serving.The poor are taken advantage of by an OC system that was designed to help them.The rich make no sacrifice and feel superior.

As you know, WD, people stay a long time in churches they should leave due due to heretical teaching by the pastor. There are many reasons, including fellowship with other believers, why people stay and attempt to wait out a bad pastor.

My Pastor used an illustration once with Skittles. He talked about how God wants to bless us if we will give him 1 out of 10 Skittles. Then he begin to throw boxes of Skittles into the audience...I was so blessed!!

In a church that I went to in my teens (inner city), there was a preacher that got up and taught that you shouldn't tithe on what you make today, but tithe on what you want to make in the future. So, if you're making $25,000 and want to make $40,000, you should be tithing $4,000/yr instead of $2,500. On top of that, you were pressured to give offerings. They would tell you what to give. "We need everyone to give $25 today for the offering."

heyman,I had a similar experience at a Christian charity event. We were all sitting at our tables, and the guy giving the money pitch TOLD us to take out our wallets and take out a 5 dollar bill and hold it up! I was shocked. Of course, since this was a group of people and most people will follow the directions becaue of being in a group like that-it worked.

So maybe pastors could try this. Have everybody take out their checkbooks. He could tell them the date, the recipient, the amount, and remind them to sign. He could simply directly TELL them to do this. Many would! It's human nature.

I may be ignorant, but I do not see how is giving to a church is giving to god. For one thing he is in position of all. When I give to a church I feel as if I am giving to the pastor and the staff and maybe some flood fights. How is giving to a church giving to god. Or should I say what god. God spelled backwards is dog. Are we directed to be like a dog and accept anything? When will a dog reject his master, never I thing.

It's interesting to me that African-American pastors rarely preach on sanctity of life or sanctity of marriage, because the Democratic platform is pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage.

It's also interesting to me that Paige Patterson doesn't preach on gluttony or discipline or taking care of the temple of the Holy Spirit.

When you pastors preach expository-style then you actually have to preach everything (disciplining the body, God's take on abortion, New Testament view on giving instead of OT tithing).

I will say though (since this is anonymous) that my wife and I make a $110,000 combined income and over the course of the past 12 years we have raised our giving from 10% to 24%. It's amazing that we really can go without cable tv, a luxury trip or car, and a huge house - - and still sense the blessing of God for giving as He directed us.

The D party is neither pro-abortion nor pro-gay marriage. It is pro-choice with respect to abortion (woman with the advice of her doctor) and pro equal rights. The difference may seem small to some, but to call people pro-abortion is a slander. It is equivalent to calling the R party pro forced parenthood, which is a form of slavery.

“Tithing....try it...you'll like it!”Yeah, I do but that does not mean everyone has to that is between them and God. Nor does tithing on your unemployment mean you will get a job in two weeks or two months. That does raise a question it all of this “good stuff” is supposed to happen to you when you tithe, why did you lose your job in the first place? Giving, whatever the amount, is good, period. You give because it blesses, period. You cannot bribe God. You cannot give God a payoff.

Not true. I am virulently opposed to each and every abortion, but I do not seek to impose that on a woman who chooses to terminate a pregnancy. My opposition is due to a personal experience and to my love for children. But my pro-choice position is also due to seeing what happened prior to legalization, when an acquaintance was nearly killed and lost her ability to bear children to a back alley abortionist. And from knowing that there were many others like her. The positions are NOT THE SAME and your are LYING if you so insist.

I know that Watchdog doesn't want this to turn into an abortion debate, but I wonder at times how much politics persuades the pulpit (I mean that for D's and R's and for white and black and hispanic preachers).

To say you are pro-choice means you sanction the death of a child in a mom's womb. To say you support "full inclusion of gay families in the life of nation" means you sanction non-Biblical marriage. I've noticed that fat white preachers don't preach much on purity, and dynamic black preachers don't preach much on sanctity of life or pro-biblical marriage.

But 7:07/7:46 Anonymous, don't insult our intelligence by saying that being pro-choice isn't pro-death of a child, based upon your "experience." It is not an imposition upon the mother to give life, it is an imposition upon the child to be sucked out from the womb.

This really is about preaching the full council of God's Word. If you do that then you hear pro-life, anti-legalistic tithing, pro-biblical marriage, take care of your body sermons...which seem to be missing in white and black churches.

I do not so sanction. I just refuse to intervene. It is not my place to sanction or to intervene. It is a decision for the woman and her physician.

Similarly with marriage. I do not sanction or intervene to stop or interfere with respect to anyone's marriage except my own and those of my children. I will encourage and counsel if asked.

BTW, what we practice and have practiced in this country for the last 60 years, at least, has not been biblical marriage. In bible times, marriages were arranged, frequently polygamous, the women was chattel property of the man, the man's relatives had an obligation to take his widow as a wife, etc., etc.

The full council of God's word is Jesus Christ, perfect in life, died, buried and resurrected, and the promise of the forgiveness of sin and eternal life in the presence of God. Anything else is an add on, and is very dangerous, because of our prejudices which color our understanding and interpretation.

Then you sanction hunger and starvation by not taking all you have, selling everything, and using it to feed the poor.

I am not the judge. God is. I do not presume on His prerogatives. Apparently you make it your business to take the place of God in you approach to social issues. Then please stop condemning hungry children to death by your failure to feed them.

What is so apalling is that a Vetenarian in our state can be punished by fine or imprisonment for aborting a kitten or a puppy. God said He knew you before you were in the womb. Every life is sacred to God because every life is a miracle. Five of our presidents were orphaned off. I believe their parents would have loved to have reared their sons if they had only known.

I recall one tv preacher who after delivering the message said that he knew some of those attending could put $100 in the offering buckets. Then after the collection, he said he knew some could not afford $100 but could give $50 and the buckets were handed out. After that collection he went to a $20, $10, $5, and then the last collection was for only $1. Boy did he clean up. It was simply the biggest joke I have ever witnessed by a so-called evangelist. He also wore the largest diamond ring on his finger I ever saw on a tv preacher. Suckers are truly born every day.

Your argument is invalidated by the truths of abortion. Abortion does not save children from starvation. The vast majority of abortions are performed on women who have the economic means to provide for themselves and their child. I am not a judge. You and others like you are the judge, jury and executioner. You put yourself in the place of God by deciding who lives and who dies.Look at the pictures of the babies torn apart in an abortion. Look at the dismembered arms and legs, the disemboweled bodies and the pure gore and tell me it is humane, tell me it is the “loving choice” to kill a totally and completely innocent child.

I decide nothing and you are slandering me with false statements. You are putting yourself in God's place and blaspheming God.

I do not sanction anything. BTW, I chose to live in a poor area and give away more than half of my resources each year on behalf of the poor. I help abused people, mostly women and children. I work to ensure that food is available for those who are hungry.

There are almost no mentions of abortion in the Bible, but hundreds of verses about our obligations to the poor. Read Matthew 25. If there are hungry children in your area, you are condemned by their hunger. If you do not live in a poor area, you are spending your resources on fancy house and car and therefore are also condemned. You and your spouse, one of you is a "fat cow of Bashan" living on the abuse of the poor.

Similarly, there are only a couple of verses about homosexuality, but many about our obligation to the poor. I suggest that you read the Bible and count the verses. More than 40 percent have to do with our obligation to the poor. BTW the OT tithe was to feed the poor.

It is you who needs to go back and read the Bible. There may not be anything directly about abortion but there is plenty about sacrificing babies. I accuse you of nothing. You do not have to give an account to me. God is the one who will judge not me.Again, look at the picture of the aborted babies. Look at the dismembered bodies. The arms and legs ripped from the tiny bodies and tell me it is right. Tell me it is just.

WishIhadknown: I agree with you and your title. If the women who had abortions had known that killing their babies was wrong after they got saved they would have never done it. There are many women who now can never have a baby because of their previous abortions. Too much emphasis on the poor. Someone likens feeding the poor to tithing. Its all OT and I can only assume that they are trying to work their way to heaven. It won't work. Its all in the blood of Jesus Christ. No other way means no other way.

As with any membership organization, the members have to give their money in order for the organization to survive.

Beyond that, if whoever compiled that video, and to the author of the blog. I would encourage you to do a bit more research about inner city megachurches. Inner city megachurches in most cities actually aren't populated by poor people, in fact they're majority middle class and higher income bracket. And Trinity is no exception. To which I say, those middle class people need to get off of their ass-ets and give.

Many of the members of the inner city megachurches have achieved a level of financial stability that they most times DON'T live in the surrounding neighborhoods and travel in from suburbs and other affluent neighborhoods to still have ties to "the 'hood." Another thing I know about Trinity is that the particular neighborhood they are located in is solidly working class, and full of single family dwellings and has historically been a working and middle class neighborhood in the city of Chicago.

Therefore, this article and this video is slanderous and misleading when it comes to the example about Trinity. Yes, it's okay to have issues with compulsory tithing, but get the literal FACTS straight about the ecclesiastical community and its infrastructure before going on a slanderous tirade just to prove a sensationalist point.

That is the whole point on tithing...pastors telling church members that they MUST give money to the church, because giving money to the church is the same as giving to God. They even go further, that the only way to give resources to God is by giving to the church. Giving to the poor or to other charities is NOT giving to God.

Uppity Negro - perhaps you are "slandering" the people of Trinity when you say they need to "get off their assets and give". Maybe they are giving, and they don't need to be insulted by you, or some wealthy pastor insulting their intelligence by stacking yams and grapefruits on a 1 foot by 1 foot table with an organ playing as food falls off the table.

wishihadknown, you appear to be deliberately being rude to someone who's being honest enough to be, well, honest.

I'm not American, but if I were, as a Christian there's no way I could vote Republican. They may say things you like to hear in regards to abortion and gay marriage, but they're a party driven almost entirely by hate and selfishness. There's no love or support for the poor. There's only support for killing, wars, corporatism hate and greed.

Do you think they *really* care about abortion or family values? not at all, they have just learned that if they bandy there terms about they're worth a decent number of votes.

I'm anti abortion, but I'd rather vote for a pro-choice, anti-war party than an anti-abortion, pro-war one.

Anonymous at April 13, 2011 6:41 PMbrought it up and you just grabbed the argument and ran with it, making all kinds of leaps beyond logic, tossing insults around and accusing people of all sorts of things. You make the Pharisees look humble and loving.

These kinds of positions are why the younger generation is fleeing the church. It is the work of Satan that you do.

Just like always can't fight the message, attack the messenger. Isn't that what the Pharisee's did to Jesus? You proclaim you are not judging but then turn around and declare judgment on Republicans like the Democrats are any different. Review the history of the Twentieth, to what party did the President’s belong when World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam started?

“These kinds of positions are why the younger generation is fleeing the church. It is the work of Satan that you do.”

Let me get this straight, according to you just because I am an advocate for the most innocent of human life, I am an agent of Satan? You accuse me of being insulting but then you say that of me. Who’s the hypocrite here? Who is judging whom?

Vietnam -- we had troops there in 1956, perhaps before. In the early '50s Eisenhower's Secy of State had an opportunity for Ho Chi Minh to come to the U.S. to work out how we could help them become a democratic country and help work out a settlement with the French to stop the war between the French and the Viet Minh forces. He turned it down, told Ho Chi Minh he would arrest him and turn him over to the French if he came. That forced the Viet Minh into the hands of the Soviets for arms etc. (not the Chinese Reds, who were unwelcome in Viet Nam).

So Kennedy did not start our involvement in Viet Nam -- we were active there in support of the French and anti-democratic forces before Kennedy was elected. A friend who died some years ago was stationed in Viet Nam with U.S. forces in the late 1950s.

It is not what you advocate, but how you advocate. I think you have the point of my last post, so I will retract it. However, your approach to people will drive many away from the faith.

I oppose abortion. I also oppose making it illegal. I think we would have a greater success at reducing the number of abortions through assistance and moral suasion, coupled with widespread availability of serious education about birth control and the measures themselves being readily available.

Making it illegal would not stop it. There were hundreds of thousands of abortions in the years before Roe v. Wade, just done illegally and masked as to what they really were.

I choose not to intervene. I think it is between the woman, her doctor, and God. I happen to be more concerned about those who are born than those who are not. And there are many like me.

"I think we would have a greater success at reducing the number of abortions through assistance and moral suasion, coupled with widespread availability of serious education about birth control and the measures themselves being readily available."

Yep, you are the type of pro-life person that the pro-choice people love. Helps to explain how this modern day Holocaust has been going on for so long and how so many millions have died in a Christian nation.

The real Vietnam War did not start until the Bay of Tonkin resolution before that there were only military advisers there, as there were in hundreds of places around the world. To what party did the President belong when the Bay of Tonkin resolution passed?

Now I understand why you did not know. Willful ignorance. The bombing of N. Vietnam did not start until after the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. However, we had thousands of troops there before that, propping up our hand=picked dictator, after we helped to scuttle democratic elections that Ho Chi Minh, the G. Washington of his country, would have won. We had been bombing and doing aerial interdiction in S. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etc., before the Tonkin incident.

I'm a pro-life Democrat and I want to impose my anti-abortion views on all women in America by force of law.

With that said, I love it when the wingnuts go off about how Democrats kill babies, etc. It shows their hypocrisy when they talk the pro-life talk and then oppose things like single-payer healthcare which would save lives.

I'm a bit of an oddball in the Democratic Party. As a social democrat, I'm on the left wing of the party on economic matters, but on social issues I tend to be fairly conservative.

Tithing and giving are not the same thing. Tithing is trying to meet the requirements of the Law and man that even the Israelites did not do. Freewill giving is Spirit guided and is done in faith.If you are trying to reach the hurting and the hopeless then many churches are probably the last place to give your money because they just do not do a very good job of it. How do you tell? It’s something I like to call enough.If your church looks more like a sports complex than a church, then your church probably has enough.If your preacher is a big game hunter and has the church pay to mount his trophies then your church has enough.If your preacher belongs to a country club then your church has enough.If your preacher is always driving a new Cadillac Escalade then you church has enough.If your preacher is flying around in a private jet then your church probably has enough.

FBC Choir MemberNeither party has a monopoly on stupidity and please do not misunderstand my posts as insinuating “Democrats kill babies.” The biggest problem with the single payer healthcare system is it results in an unfair allocation of resources. My 82 year old mother is already experiencing it with Medicare. There are just certain measures Medicare will not authorize once a person reaches a certain age or as my mother puts it, “everyone just wants you to go on and get out of the way.”Personally, I have always favored the Chinese system where the Doctor gets paid as long as you are healthy.I am not sure what the answer is and unfortunately we seem incapable to have a civil discourse and work out a solution.

For all of you who realize tithing is strictly Ot check out Coach Dave at www.ptsalt.com. Coach Dave is the football coach that lived in Ohio that the ACLU got after for praying with his football players before the games back in 1999. He has a great outline on 4.14.11 regarding false teaching of todays pastors of tithing. He is a great leader and tells it like it is. You will really enjoy his messages.ptsalt stands for pass the salt and boy do we need salt in this old world today!!

WD-Off topic but go to this link http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=35052 very interesting as to why the SBC is in the condition it is in. I know from experience exactly what Brad Whitt is talking about!

And then if you haven't already been to it Peter Lumpkins has a great post on his blog regarding the Annie Armstrong offering here http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2011/04/do-you-believe-in-the-annie-armstrong-easter-offering-by-peter-lumpkins-1.html

Sorry I am not a computer savvy person and cant just but the link up where all you have to do is click on it and it takes you right to it. But I think you will find some interesting things and reasons as to why we are drying up! And I am sad about it.Kyle

Rick Warren has done more to further the Kingdom of God since the Apostle Paul.

April 14, 2011 2:04 PM

To give you an example of what it means when Warren reverse tithes...about 5 years ago, PDL, his org, was in financial trouble. he had 3 mill sitting around in cash to infuse in it. His 10% he keeps is like a mill a year. I am MORE impressed with Bill Gates giving to secular causes.

He was like GW in that he won their war of independence against the French at great risk to himself. Put all of his resources into that. And as the military leader that won the independence from the colonial power, he would have been elected president of the country. Until the U.S. intervened. We were afraid of the communists, but did not understand that the Vietnamese had been subjugated by the Chinese in a brutal rule for centuries, and the enmity against the Chinese was deep. It could have been exploited by US to make Vietnam an ally, not an enemy.

Eisenhower's government blew the opportunity. And we had boots on the ground there prior to the French debacle, increased them after they left, and helped to engineer the split of the country by derailing the planned elections.

WishIhadknown said... Tithing and giving are not the same thing. Tithing is trying to meet the requirements of the Law and man that even the Israelites did not do.

wishIhadknown, some people do not have a thinking cap. They are caugnt in a system I call decptive slavery. Thank god for people like you who know the truth. People will wake up but it is not an over night task espically when their minds have dammaged by the social media of FBC Jax and other instutions. They have on remorse for the needy in spirit.

I have figured out how to get more "blessings". I am going to stop paying my mortgage, my car payment, medical bills, credit cards, reduce eating to bare sustenance (I need to loose weight anyway), reduce any other expense, I will just demand things free... and will tithe all of this money to receive more blessings. Except gas for my car as long as I have it. I must buy gas so I can get to my job in order to tithe more money from my salary.When the bill collectors come and the mortgage co., forecloses on my house. Then I can live in my car until that is repossessed. Then I will send all collectors to the preacher and he can explain how I have been blessed and so will they if they 1) let me alone 2) start to give all their money also.Serious point being....Do these greedy preachers who live like kings BTW, not understand PEOPLE HAVE NO MONEY. It's called taxes and inflation. I would suggest these "kings" get a real job like the rest of us instead of demanding we pay them for "nothing" (except their lavish lifestyle) while they misuse the scripture to demand money, while trying to say God demands it or else!!!! It may be true that preachers are first cousins to politicians! Get a job!

The Kool Aid drinkers cannot take it. They ignore truth and just like following a man. Then later when they realize they were wrong they are the first to say I knew it was wrong but I just wanted there to be peace on earth. Good luck!!! The only peace one has is in following the man Christ Jesus and the freedom He provides through His Word not someone who lords it over the congregation that the tithe is the Lords!!!

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About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"