All you wonderful believers in gods and the like. I have no problem with you all believing in whatever it is you want to believe in, as long as it doesn't infringe on the human rights of anyone else. So, here's my deal.

You keep religion to yourself, no going after vulnerable or young people or even fit and healthy people - let people find their way to you. Keep your systems of belief to yourself.

And in return us atheists and 'sciency' types will keep our atheist and our 'sciency' weirdness like evolution, big bangs, medicine, transport, agriculture, commerce, computers, lighting, air conditioning, tractors, trailers, harvesters, trucks, trains, blenders, TV's, DVD's, Bluray's, genetic cures, high yield crops, bathrooms, showers, kettles, toasters, ovens, microwaves, cars, UV's, printers, power tools, rockets, robots, rotisseries, coffee machines, wood chippers, chain saws, clippers, callipers and the millions of other devices that rely on modern 'sciency' stuff - yep those evil little computer chips that are a fundamental part of everyday technology that brought you all these wonderful enhancements are built using knowledge we gained from that whacky quantum theory stuff and the nevermentionedbyreligiouspeoplebecausetheydon'tunderstandit Uncertainty principle, to ourselves.

You can't use the 'god inspired these enhancements' argument because this technology has also been used to kill people in very evil ways and Theologians can't argue for god's intention because that (by your own admission) is beyond your knowledge, plus he/she/it knows everything (apparently) so he/she/it cannot excuse himself/herself/itself from knowing about the evil use technology will be put to. So you either accept god intended it to be used for both good and evil - making him/her/it an extremely duplicitous and thoroughly untrustworthy character, casting doubts on pretty much everything he/she/it has ever done or said - or you accept humans made it. And we can all accept that humanity (as a race) is duplicitous.

Or you can sit there picking your pox scabs praying for a cure while we use science - you wouldn't want to be a hypocrite would you?

Deal?

Archi.

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

(21-07-2015 03:39 AM)morondog Wrote: No deal. Fucked if I'm gonna make a deal like that. Freedom of information is fundamental to progress.

Progress against what?

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

(21-07-2015 03:39 AM)morondog Wrote: No deal. Fucked if I'm gonna make a deal like that. Freedom of information is fundamental to progress.

Progress against what?

Forward movement. Progress against the status quo. Unless you want society frozen in its present state? As irritating as it may be, let the preachers preach. We'll *show* that our solution is better than theirs.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

Forward movement. Progress against the status quo. Unless you want society frozen in its present state? As irritating as it may be, let the preachers preach. We'll *show* that our solution is better than theirs.

It's just a passing though but I've always seen the notion of 'progress' as a concept formed from cast-off Abrahamic religious values. Technology may bring about change but that technology is often put to both good and bad use (hence my point in the OP). Plus 'progress' suggests a change against some kind of measure, evolution as a process is driven by random changes of drift in a sea of genes and as such does not provide humanity with a measure to 'progress' against. But rather the Abrahamic religions are predicated on measuring human progress against biblical standards - and therefore achieving heaven or with other religions enlightenment or whatever. The concept of human 'progress' is born of these Abrahamic habits, it's unscientific and a habit critical thinking people need to get out of, IMO.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Well sure, if you don't think moving outta the trees was a good idea, I guess you could argue that progress isn't progress in the right direction, I think you'd have a hard time saying that it isn't progress in *a* direction though.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

(21-07-2015 04:23 AM)morondog Wrote: Well sure, if you don't think moving outta the trees was a good idea, I guess you could argue that progress isn't progress in the right direction, I think you'd have a hard time saying that it isn't progress in *a* direction though.

I guess any change brings immediate benefits and drawbacks, evolution gets decide which of those are benefits in the long-term, our human opinion of those changes is moot.

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Progress away from our animal origins' version of morality, as enshrined in our religious texts from the Bronze/Iron Ages, I'd say. We're getting better, however much we are still hampered by the religious who cling to those ancient texts for guidance.

Even the most ardent Christian doesn't accept everything the ancient Hebrews did, or even what the early Christians did, as good morality... such as slavery and womens' equality.

Progress!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson

(21-07-2015 09:22 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote: Progress away from our animal origins' version of morality, as enshrined in our religious texts from the Bronze/Iron Ages, I'd say. We're getting better, however much we are still hampered by the religious who cling to those ancient texts for guidance.

Even the most ardent Christian doesn't accept everything the ancient Hebrews did, or even what the early Christians did, as good morality... such as slavery and womens' equality.

Progress!

There is no measure the process of evolution determines for our species that tells us moving away from certain race or gender based subjugations in certain geographical locations (this is not a global phenomenon) is progress.

It's ok to feel good about the changes we have made but the reality is the fundamental nature of humanity has not changed, we will find and have found other ways of subjugating people and we always will - it is in our nature.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

(21-07-2015 04:24 PM)ArchibaldFunkdust Wrote: There is no measure the process of evolution determines for our species that tells us moving away from certain race or gender based subjugations in certain geographical locations (this is not a global phenomenon) is progress.

It's ok to feel good about the changes we have made but the reality is the fundamental nature of humanity has not changed, we will find and have found other ways of subjugating people and we always will - it is in our nature.

Archi

I think you're being too negative and I don't see any reason to assume that all progress is ultimately futile, which is what you seem to be saying.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.