Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 10:15:37 PMGot any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?

Reply:They make any sense. Idea is avoid condensation, not to make it.bees make condensation regardless ... this is about where it happensif it occurs inside the insulated space below the bees you get 10% heat back

No question should ever be considered unreasonable - the only unreasonable aspect of this thread are the responses from ... and his parrot, who cannot get their heads around a perfectly sound enquiry.

Warm air rises, and cold air descends - therefore the formation of a thermocline is always possible. But I would suggest that the existence of a thermocline within a beehive is highly unlikely ... for 2 reasons.

The first is the activity of the bees themselves. Wherever there is active circulation (often due to the cluster being located towards one side), there is unlikely to be stratification of thermal layers.

The second is that a vortex is created near the entrance to any occupied hive, due to the movement of air through a narrow space. (Clearly this would not apply where OMFs are fitted.) Such vortices would also 'stir the air'.

The only time I could envisage a thermocline being created would be when the bees are very tightly and centrally clustered, and when the upper part of the hive is 100% sealed. But the breaking of cluster would soon mix the air, thus destroying any temporary stratification.

At least, that's how I see events within the hive. But I could always be wrong !

Thermoclines are more usually associated with large outdoor expanses of water, where the water is heated (by the sun) from above. Warm water rises and the cooler water gradually migrates downwards (just check your domestic hot water tank) - thus creating the thermocline. I have often experienced these when diving in the Med - it's like moving through an invisible curtain between an oven and a fridge. Very strange.

Having said that - an immersion heater does heats the water from below, and a thermocline is most certainly created within a hot water tank (but it's a tank which isn't stirred), so it's far from being a stupid issue to raise. Me:I to am a scuba diver, and sky. My contention would be...... ready for it ? The atmosphere is static ! remember combs now, can you visualize how the heat would disallow condensation above thermocline ? Smile The honeybee hive is natures perfect distillery ! Smile_MeOf course it could be wishful thinking but, if you go back, re-read Langsroth, Huber, I'm working thru Swammerdam now, the clues are there. They saw the thing, just, like all since, missed the significance. They didn't understand thermoclineMeGo, look @ your honeybee organism, again for the first time,........ think upside down moonshine still,..... think hermit crab.....can you see it now ? Smile

I know, can't find anything either. Could it be this has been completely missed ? I have emails out to mags and ent. depts. In any case, come spring, I have the necessary apparatus to test the theory. As they say, a pic is worth a thousand words.

Another good example of a thermocline would be a swimming pool in the summer with a solar cover. As long as the pump isn’t running (to stir up the water), you end up with a layer of hot water at the surface that feels like a hot tub. However if you sink too low in the water you freeze your butt off (at least in Michigan) as the water rapidly gets cold. You see this in lakes to some extent too.

I think your poster in reply #2 hit the nail on the head on this one. If the bees are mixing the air then your thermocline idea is screwed! If the bees aren’t mixing the air, then your bees are screwed due to asphyxiation.

Drew would you concede that mixing of air by the bees will wreck a thermocline?

Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga :) Apis would not asphyxiate in a tree :) There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course

p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! :)

I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism. Except if you vent the roof of course :( I would add that I believe the colony could be fanning quiet substantially above and the effect on the thermocline below would be like that of blowing into a bowl of water.

Another way to say, Apis can, boil, the moisture down/out.

p.s. I feel obliged to add a word of caution @ this juncture for the benefit of any following. I do not recommend you run right out and throw a garbage bag and old sleeping bag on your hive/shell. Also, if ya happen to know any thermodynamics professors.... ? Help ! :)

p.s. Although it gets tricky I suppose it could be to advantage to point out the 3D aspect to be expected of suspected thermocline @ this point. Although false it could help to see it as a sphere with the cluster @ center.

Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga :) Apis would not asphyxiate in a tree :) There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course

p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! :)

"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may remember,involve me and I'll understand" Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways." John F. KennedyFranklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

from other forum:?Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top? meBelow thermocline, if your hive was upside down aquarium, under certain conditions, you would see a horizontal plane,...... defined, by a line of condensation.

How about forgetting the themocline and sticking some disposable diapers over you bees heads? They use a highly absorbent polymer to soak up moisture. This might just be the Cat's meow you're looking for.

I believe that one infra red pic depicts a winter cluster, that air is not moving. Or, better, only moving within its own color. The thermal layers are visable, the red holes are the difference in temp between out and in. I believe this colony is quiet warm and dry both. Can you see how no moisture could condense in there ? Equally important, no vertical heat loss because no air loss ? (false, but suits our purpose here).Cheers,DrewSorry u have 2 cut and paste.p.s. Remember you are looking @ 2D slice. p.s.s. I don't know anything about that pic, but it does match perfectly how I see things, a couple more like it, and it will be time to begin new post in equip. sec. Thermohive:Construction :)