Are You Over Or Underpaid

It's a simple question, yet one which is so difficult to answer (for lack of available data), and which fills most workers (especially those with a chip on their shoulder and/or delusions of grandeur) with dread: "Am I over, or underpaid in my job?" The following handy chart, created by Reddit user Dan Lin, attempts to answer just this question with a breakdown of some 820 jobs listed by the BLS, with percentile data (25th, 50th, 75th, 90th) for the wage of any given occupation, allowing the determination where, relative to the median, one is paid.

Something tells us those jobs at the top of the chart, mostly education and training-intensive healthcare jobs, will not be pushing hard for minimum wage laws. Those on the bottom of the chart, however, those are a different story.

If you feel underpaid, quit your job and find one where you're not underpaid.....Or better yet, start your own business and create your own job. If you still feel underpaid after that then you were probably not underpaid.....just underskilled.

That your labor is worth more in another market place? How do we establish the worth of our labors?

How much is a popsicle worth in the desert versus the Artic? If there are two people waiting in line for only one job, how much are they each worth?

To my thinking the only way the value of our labors is incorrectly priced is if there is an artificial intervention provided by either monopoly which controls labor demand, or government intervention.

My industry which is primarily carpentry, has been overrun by illegals. We have seen continuing wage declines for thirty years and while we have many factors driving demand, we KNOW what is driving supply...an open border. My wage potential is completely determined by what a virtually homeless person is willing to work for. This is working up the food chain as more jobs are being replaced with automation which relies on low wage low skilled people to operate.

For those being sucked under by this low wage global vortex, options are limited unless you want to bite onto the endless debt tit of student loans in hopes an education might help you outrun the currents. In my mind, doubtful.

Perhaps you can mold your lifelong skill of carpenting into something more niche and relatively non-competitive, like being a luthier. I'm definitely going to learn how to make top-notch wood&string instruments in the next decade.

My unemployed neighbor does that, and he lives with multiple people sharing the rent on one small apartment. You'll be competing with machines that do that using Chinese and Mexican labor. I hope you win.

My wage potential is completely determined by what a virtually homeless person is willing to work for.

but isn't a "minimum wage" the devil? shouldn't the "producers" be able to pay whatever the Market dictates, including a pittance? why blame those who HIRE and set the wages low, instead of those willing to WORK for next to nothing?

Cath, it all depends if you believe in markets the way fairy tales (aka economic textbooks) tell them or how they really function

in a healthy labour market wage earners below a certain level have an incentive to join a labour union. which would have a healthy interest in bargaining contracts on a fair basis

the same labour unions would have a further incentive to collaborate with parties on the left. which would lobby for keeping jobs onshore instead of letting them go offshore

which then would lead to a healthy policy towards taxation, particularly in regard to onshore/offshore revenues of inshore companies

all market based, mind you. nothing about the above that a libertarian like Judge Napolitano would think unseemly, as he even said on FOX

fact is that in the US "labour union" is a dirty word. fact is that US corporate taxation is utterly out of whack, compared to the rest of the world. fact is that US megacorps don't even know what the hell to do with their immense offshore cash mountains. fact is that in the US the debate is about "moochers" and "producers"

a different regulatory & taxation environment would help. but here again, the US debate is about having one or not, instead of what would work or not

corruption breeds bad politics, which breeds the wrong kind of debates, which steer the wrong kind of policies and regulations, which increase corruption

and all this is best seen in the polarization of both politics and debates. when you lose the political middle ground, you lose unity of purpose. it's a kind of steady decay

fact is that in the US "labour union" is a dirty word. fact is that US corporate taxation is utterly out of whack, compared to the rest of the world. fact is that US megacorps don't even know what the hell to do with their immense offshore cash mountains. fact is that in the US the debate is about "moochers" and "producers"

we don't disagree Ghordius.

many folks in the "US" are still trying to get their minds around the gap between

the lies they were told growing up,

and the reality of the "state" they are in now.

it would help if there were either new words created to describe the current reality - or people defined the labels applied to truth-fully describe the reality experienced.

funny that you write that way. you know what my biggest hurdle is on ZH? vocabulary

in order to explain this with an example from europe: recently, the new King of Spain had a speech in parliament, where he used the word "multicultural". as a goal of his

the way he meant it and it was understood, in Spain, is that he is set to maintain national unity while fostering an equality of the Catalan language, culture, political autonomy etc. etc. vs the Spanish "mainstream"

the same word has completely different connotations, elsewhere. some of the lies are based on exactly this. bad newscasting and politics thrives on this

imo there are the words to describe the current reality. it's just that some of us have forgotten their original meaning, or heaped propagandistic false meanings on them

+1,000 on the issues and understanding leadership doesn't want debate but they are starting to acknowledge the need for it. The private sector must leads as that is what is recognized most by .gov right now even if it is megacorps.

Note my screen name and own site under same name being relaunched Monday after a few year successful beta. It was not simple of easy trial and error but no value proposition is.

You learn so much about human nature both good and ugly from setting up such a platform.

I own globaldebateplatform.com domain (GDP for short haha) but the pain at the top is now just starting to multiply in no growth for timing to be right to build it out yet or market it on top of other current tech.

"For those being sucked under by this low wage global vortex, options are limited unless you want to bite onto the endless debt tit of student loans in hopes an education might help you outrun the currents. In my mind, doubtful."

This is exactly what has happened and why we can all say goodbye to being paid a historical "fair" wage. Median wage for ALL professionals is going to necessarily be pulled under by the sucking sound of the NAFTA agreement and the North American Union specifically. Plus 1000 for you sir!. I keep thinking about this. Each time I go out and see the mix of people at my grocery store.... all the illegals immigrants using their EBT cards, reading the headlines of the continuing invasion of our borders. It started in the 60's with someone who thought it would be a great idea to counter the drainage of the Social Security "trust fund" with an increase in immigration. These third world babies that are used to offset the declining birth rate in the anglo population will NEVER overcome the amount of money they have drained through all the successive generations since then. The problem goes back through Republican and Democrat administrations. There is no answer now. The "trust fund" has a zero balance and all else is just pointless bailing. The ship is going down..... albeit slowly. There is no coming back from this. PLEASE, someone tell me I'm wrong. !!

There are 7 billion people in the world, and 80% live on $10 a day or less. So essentially there is a never ending supply of homeless people who will work for a plate of beans.

The global corporations run this shit show, and we all know they love cheap/free labor. So everyone's career is toast over the next few decades. Everyone. The only niches available will be selling luxury items to the 1%, or finding services that poor people need.

Long single serving tooth paste and soap like they have the the 3rd world.

Most of us who start our own business find out just what underpaid really means. When income received is balanced against time, money invested, and risk, you better be doing it for some reason other than just the money.

Top Gear - Technically, you are correct about being uncompetetive for a lot of people that use there computer for mindless pursuits instead of education. People here are shrewd to educate themselves how the world works in cycles for better or worse. Most are attempting frontrunning. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

For example, I am in data. There is literally a billion dollar opportunity, a market I started in 1997. I was naive and others got rich and I was exploited. Pump and dump had become market practice. I went on to innovate in data and software, I made a good living learned finance by hiring consultants to raise money and used the Internet. Always studied history as to the why people or groups behaved a certain way, missed selling company in 2008 and tried to find a buyer a year in advance knowing what was coming.

A couple of very old investors told me based in that forecast I made in 2007 about bust coming that in such time the big get bigger and the small get smaller. But I wanted to keep innovating, I am a value guy and refused investment when it was noticed and should have. That is called a learning curve and I won't make the same mistake twice. The drive to continue to find a way to compete has begun paying dividends as a large number of my smaller competitors are extinct now.

I rammed by head against a wall wondering why no big company would want to go after a billion dollar opportunity. The reason was obtained by learning is that those at the top were making easy money from mostly finance our species takes the path of the least resistence. Not to say I couldnt have gotten funding the way I wanted if I had better connections but I innovated something that created them and as mentioned at that point should have taken the funding for what those investors wanted, a portion of what I offered.

Now on the other hand I have seen some of your other commentary and I'll say this. You seem to approve of the law of the jungle ONLY. Societies always collapse the same way when two sets of laws apply to those in charge and commoner.

I had few problems with pump and dump because there is a sucker born every minute and education should shelter one from that. But when government changes the rules and forces bailouts (at gunpoint) of bad bets because it has been captured by special interests as we saw in 2008 I will rail against it because it leads to misery for all over the long-term.

But I pick my battles as a realist objectively now. As some have seen I do make suggestions how to make money (barbell economy) or improve health based on what I learned. I think one can and should rigorously compete but I had mentors that taught me to give back to the community which is satisfying in it's own rights for a balanced life. I see others here educating to compete and doing same attempting to give back.

But globally I do not see that attitude. Shoot, even the King of lobbying Jack Abramoff came out in 2012 to explain how current special interest system works including direct bribes of politicians. Global leadership giving back to the community does not mean handing out buckets of cash, it means rescinding or creating laws for the little guy to compete, because there is a saturation point of those with families and time permitted to learn to do so.

I don't see you as a value investor sir, though you make a good argument that people should compete and a lot of people here spend all day complaining where they evidently have more time for educating to benefit. It's about balance. I can educate others why things run in cycles like corruption (give back to community) but I can get out and compete. Not doing so guarantees personal failure.

Back to education on that billion dollar opportunity. Finance has run its course, it is time to go back to those top companies that can no longer grow this way because now they don't know what to do but I do so now I am picking up the phone and meeting companies this fall. I realized two years ago growth financialization had not run its course. Timing and when to attack and when to put it on hold saves time, the only commodity which can't be bought.

Yeah...We need to get rid of that Notre Dame School Team Name also. I am so offended. Just because some Irish were Bar Brawlers does not mean that all Irishmen are Bar Brawlers. That is so stereotypical.

The Fighting Irish? Come on...

Then the Mascot is also offensive. I mean the Fighting Irish are supposed to be overgrown Fairies??? So the Irish are Bar Brawling Fairies?

But we have that damned racist and Gay President in the White House. To Obama, if it is not white...THEN IT IS OFFENSIVE. Of course the Fighting Irish and the Fariry Mascot are not offensie to Obama. That is because that is both White and Gay.

Did you see the top of the list? While anesthesiologists and surgeons are no doubt highly skilled in demand positions how do we know how much demand since the government injects over a trillion dollars a year of "demand" into healthcare by decree? There are other factors that go into hiring decision by decree such as race, gender and sexual orientation.

CCHoo - For people with engineering minds that want to make out well with going to college and maximizing the degree I have been told petroleum engineer is where the money is at. Lack of market research and drilling into it (pun intendend) can be very costly indeed. Believe me, I learned some things the hard way.

Yeah but then you'd only make money for a couple hours because any ZH reader would have to commit suicide shortly after listening to a bunch of sheep le complaining about their "problems". That or you'd go on a killing spree. Either way someone's dying and you're not getting paid.

And if you contract for Gold and Silver and are paid in Gold and Silver, rather then Yellen's little Debtor's Note paper contracts, then are you adequately compensated? (Rhetorical)

A point that I am making is that when you are comparing your wages to others' wages then it is only demonstrative of your ability to market your skills rather than an indication of the skills which you have.

When you enter into a contract and the terms of the contract are fulfilled then it is fair. It may not be good. But it is fair.

Well, technically, you are correct....But, it's pretty hard to find a "fair" contract these days. When you read the fine print, it says "you are screwed", and if you don't like it, we can go talk to an arbitrator (of our choosing).

Contracts are written for the benefit of the stronger party in a deal. Don't think so? Then just read some of the stuff you automatically agree to at every turn on the Internet and with software you depend on.

......well look at that the medical profession has been able to wage arbitrage their health/life saving skills to bloat the entire upper section of the income pie. it's no wonder so few can actually afford their services....... what a great benefit to all of mankind the hypocritic oath has become (sic)...../s

Anybody using the term living wage is describing a job that is overpaid for the skill required.

I was at an art museum this weekend. I wondered what type of person takes a gig as a security guard there. I asked one of them "What do you think of that painting." He replied "I don't know. I never look at them." I got my answer and I be he gets paid a living wage.

Where does this come from? Maybe the Feds or something. I work in local government, and I am VERY underpaid (and only slightly underskilled). Most everyone I know here is moderately underskilled and EXTREMELY underpaid. Across the street are my friends who work for a large private company. Half are fairly skilled and fairly paid, and the other half are extremely overpaid and underskilled. The only pattern I see in LOCAL government is that they don't have the money to afford good people.

Every hairdresser I know pulls in between 75-100K, yet they all claim around 30K on their taxes. Most landlords in this area keep two sets of books too. Cash coming in is not recorded. Plumbers are the same way.

I wonder how much of our economy is off the books. I've seen a bigger jump around here in the past 5-10 years, It's their way of saying no.

I haven't made less than $100,000 in 20 years. Some years it's over $200,000. I haven't paid taxes on more than $25,000 of net income in 20 years either. All signed off by a CPA, it's better to be a 1099 guy than a "rat in a cage" W2 guy.

I learned from my late uncle that you don't have to pay the government shit, as long as you don't file a yearly 1040. He was a millionaire and stopped filing after the Federal Marshal's came to his house (at 6 am) in a tax discrepancy. The banks had called his loans and he was forced to quickly liquidate millions and then had a massive capital gains tax. He paid his excessive tax bill and never filed another 1040 for his last 20 years. No one every came to visit again. We all wondered why he didn't file for SS. You're totally off the radar if you don't file and don't ask for a handout. I don't know why more 1099 guys don't do this. It's my plan if business goes to shit. I don't qualify for any benefits except SS in another 20 years. Fuck the bureaucrats.

What you are proposing is an illegal activity. Failure to file is a Misdeameanor punishable by fine and a 6 Month stay in Jail per offense.

If I were you I would not advertise violating the Law on ZH as it is heavily monitored by Federal Agents. Furthermore it seems that it is somewhat trollish as it is a LAME ATTEMPT to induce others to brag about how they have violated the Law.

Sunnyside - It is also called "write-offs". There is a reason there is a 15% self-employment tax you know. Gov expects in general for a small business to right off everything. You're fines for breaking the rules on that are miniscule compared to the savings.

True story - In 2012 my revenue was low, $120k. Yet my income reported was $13k. As I had increased income for a couple of previous years and had bad CPA not making this kind of suggestion I did t pay in enough as I broke the next tax bracket.

As I tried to catch up the $40K i owed turned into $70k with interest and fines. I met with the IRS in 2012 on payments and they audited me. I wrote everything off except after 5:00 and weekends for things like movies and such. Anyways, audit was clean. I am down to $18k back-taxes now.

Oh a tip the agent gave me - He said he catches sole proprieters based on innordinate gas expenditures. So if your doing lots of convnient stores meals (and such) put some of that under meals.

Seeing as how I negotiate my own payments for services, I am neither over nor under paid. However, by upgrading my negotiating skills, and presenting myself in a positive manner, I may induce others to pay me more than they otherwise might have for said services.

As a career soldier (Officer and Enlisted), I give a hearty guffawe when I hear how some "barista" in Seattle wants $15.00/hour. Tell ya what chuckles, you come to Afghanistan (FOB SHank, FOB MArmal and Bagram 2011-2012), live in a tent or wooden shack (Free housing), eat three to four meals a day (free food) and plenty of exercise.

...money and markets do not emerge spontaneously... it is very clear that markets did spring up around ancient armies...Most concluded that the creation of markets of this sort was not just convenient for feeding soldiers, but useful in all sorts of ways, since it meant officials no longer had to requisition everything they needed directly from the populace...

Governments use taxes to create money, and they are able to do so because they have become the guardians of the debt that all citizens have to one another. This debt is the essence of society itself. It exists long before money and markets, and money and markets themselves are simply ways of chopping pieces of it up.

To the guys in your 20's, you're totally fucked. I mean totally fucked, like no real job for 20 years fucked. Advanced degree bullshit scam and big dreamer parents filling your head with unicorns and rainbows. You're fucked. Be a plumber or other jobs that no one wants to do. You don't want to get your hands dirty or you're too "smart" to do menial labor. You're totally fucked as a generation.

To the guys in your 30's, you need to pick a career wisely and network like hell. This group has a chance. Hopefully wise enough to realize their current job is a dead end and move to something that is profitable. This group should be situated in their career to weather a financial storm.

To the guy's in your 40's, your dreams are being crushed- 50/50 chance you make it. They're too old and established to move fast on their feet. Change is hard. They're fucked.

To the guys in your 50's, if you have a low or negative net worth- you too are fucked. I have many friends that lost their high paying jobs. Million dollar house, sports cars for everyone- poof and it's gone.

To the guys in their 60's, it's going to get beyond ugly-you're fucked and don't even know it. This is a sad group. The generation that believes in housing, 401k's and the stock market. They're fucked.

Anyone older and they just don't give a shit.

I just turned 50. A couple of million net worth. No stocks or bonds. I see clearly. We have no way to avoid a financial hurricane. It can be delayed, but not avoided.

To put into perspective we have to look at my household income in reference to... say... my father's when he was my age.

My wife and I both work and make what most would consider good salaries. Our combined take home pay is 2x what my father's take home pay was when he was my age (my mother was a stay at home mom).

My parents had far more discretionary income, lived in a nicer home, larger property, had new cars, boat, lake property, etc. My dad wore fine suits to work. I was afforded a great childhood with ample opportunities, toys, sports equip., activities, experiences, etc. My mother shoped at all big name shopping centers (Sears, JCPenny, etc.) and bought name brand groceries at the nicest grocers. They saved, invested and helped me get through university w/o debt (perhaps the greatest gift ever).

My wife and I are comfortable with our income but we don't shop at nice department stores - we buy most clothes for our kids at discount stores. We don't buy name brand groceries - we buy mostly generic or house brands at discount grocers. We don't have as nice a home nor is it on such a nice property. We don't buy new cars (actually this is pretty smart, not necessarily a sign of a limited income), we save up and buy nicer used cars. We don't have a 2nd home or a boat. We save some and are desperately trying to put money away for our children.

We are slipping behind the "upper middle class" designation not due to the amount of money we make but by the rate of inflation directly linked to the devaluation of the purchasing power of our currency.

^ This. My dad was an elementary school teacher and now makes $65k/year doing nothing. PERA offered a stipend the last couple of years he was working and, since your payout is based on your highest-earning years, this is what he now makes. Incredible. He's a millionaire (in hard assets), to boot. Unfortunately, Dad didn't help with college. I had to "earn it". So, I am now paying on student loans. :)

Our government/central banks have completely ruined our country. They have overspent, borrowed and therefore diluted our currency through printing/volume expansion. In turn, they cut back restrictions on conducting business from overseas so any and every smart corporation took advantage of this - why did they do that? To create an illusion that you are maintaining your standard of living. Cheap goods flowed in to offset the reduction in spending power. Problem is this is the M.O. of our government - there are no adults in goverment, only children - they borrow from the future. They continue to devalue the currency so we are currently hitting a point where there is no more cheaper labor out there, there are no more cheaper materials out there... goods are as cheap as they are going to be and the spending power continues to devalue. This also hurt the government twofold as the crafty corporations took adavantage of the childish rules and took their money offshore as well to shelter taxes from going to the government and the lost jobs and increased burden on welfare programs has begun to choke our country to death. They are so fucking full of themselves that it has poluted their minds and made them inhumane selfless and selfish monsters who will run this country into the ground before making any mature decisions or corrective actions to reverse the downfall

Nice rant and in particular your comment at the end about gov't will run it into the ground. I still come across people who think that the gov't will do what it needs to fix it when it needs to be fixed. Bullshit I tell them. It is probably already too late and they won't make the hard decisions or ones that would be deterimental to themselves. A good example we already have seen for years is with unions. What should be a good thing is more often than not a shit pile of corruption and self serving assholes. Most unions would drive a company bankrupt and have the doors closed with all jobs lost before they would be seen being part of the solution. Government is just like this but on steriods.

I have said it before here, and say it again now...if you can, start a Sub S or LLC. Funnel every bit of income you can through the corp. My company is about to buy me a new pick-up, bought me a flat screen TV recently, buys all my computer and communications equipment, pays my Internet phone bill, auto expenses, and the Home Office takes care of a good portion of the mortgage and monthly utilities....and there is much more flexibilty sheltering income in retirment accounts, HSA'a and overall healthcare expenses. And the beauty of it is, it's all legal. The laws are set up to benefit the ownership class. Become an owner.

My son is in the entertainment business, and I set up his LLC years ago. I also kept some stock in it, as a little way of re-couping some of my investment in him one day in the future.

Is it more work & record keeping? Yes, but if you are lazy, don't try it anyway.

I look around me in the cubical farm, and my fellow dickheads are all underpaid because the same kind of job paid 2x or 3x higher twenty years ago, OTOH most of these guys actually produce nothing useful at all so they are vastly overpaid.

Whoever the graphic artist is who produced an 850k, 25000 pixel high fine-grained image, was overpaid.

For those in the 1st quartile of the chart: Really fucking privileged.

For those in the 2nd quartile of the chart: Really really fucking privileged.

etc. You get the idea - it's not very complicated.

What is the point? When Americans and Europeans talk about income inequality, which is to say, all of the goddamn time, with hardly any pause to discuss serious matters like celebrity gossip, travel plans, iPhone apps, fast food, reality TV, and other such matters of utterly grave importance, they are doing so from the HIGHEST quartile on the planet, in all of human history.

But if I stopped there, I'd just be perpetuating the equally fucking idiotic myth that gross (or even net) "income" (which has been redefined to mean wages, which is precisely what it DID NOT mean) is the sole master variable one needs to assess financial health. I don't think it's necessary to regurgitate all of the reasons this is utter fucking bullshit.

Here's another far superior alternative question: "When, not if, U.S. F.R.N. clown-buckstm lose their world reserve currency status, and I can no longer count on the arbitrage of paying mere pennies for the world's oil, how utterly fucked is my job/career, income/salary, and standard of living?"

Oil at $150/bbl would have a similar effect.

Top, bottom, and all in between, we are ALL on the take in this scam of a planterary lifetime.

A word of advice to you young-ins (from ancedotal experience): Never, ever, ever, work for a non-profit. You WILL be underpaid by at least 33%, per a comperable position elsewhere. That, and they tend to over-hype position titles.

For instance, I just got out of an "Application System Analyst" position ($85k on the chart, was actually being paid around $50k). The job was really a Business Analyst position (still making less than the average). I had no tools to do the job; they wouldn't even get me a laptop with VPN access, or remote desktop permissions to support the 750 userbase. This, after many appeals to management. Yet, they can build $200 million hospitals left and right.

Once I started doing System Analyst level work (BPA, BPRE, etc), the pay did not increase, despite cost-benefit analyses on the projects I was working on. When I put in my notice, suddenly, they scrambled to provide everything I needed and offered to pay more. I said, "Too little, too late" and bounced.

Yes. Minimum Wgae laws - always a good idea if you are trying to push the unskilled and low piad out of work entirely..

Yes I know, they aren't "good jobs" - of course those who are depending on those jobs probably have a different opinion that the 3rd party medding self-righteous busibodies who want to enforce THEIR idea of what is fair on others at gun point. After all, eveything is better when everyone is on ewelfare anyway. Beggars are easier to please.