I am not sure if I would label my interest in NDEs as obsession. For me, hearing and reading about NDE's is a confirmation and testimony of what I was taught growing up regarding the existence of a creator, and that we are so much more than just a result of evolution. For most of my life all I knew was what I was tought. I've always wondered how much I could trust those who tought me about religion, creation etc. I have to admit that at times I have had significant doubts about the existence of God and the after life.
However, my own personal experiences as well as reading so many NDEs, have intensified my faith. It's not possible that those thousands or perhaps millions of people who share their NDE stories are making them up. Their stories are filled with so much beauty, hope, wisdom and knowledge. What could be more exiting than to have this testimony, that there is a God, that we in fact continue to exist and move on to something bigger and better, that our loved ones are not gone forever, and that there is so much wonder to look forward to. This is why I am so fascinated with NDEs.

Garry, it's wonderful that you have helped to make this forum available for anyone in the planet to read and discuss. Your topics and conversations here are very exiting and may be providing significant positive contributions to peoples lives. That must make you feel good. I hope that the depression that you are expresing here is temporary.

Here is a quote that I like:
“In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.” by Albert Campus

Life is beautiful. Don't look at the things that are not working well.
Look at nature, at flowers, trees, rivers and mountains.
We cannot save the world and its problems.
We just can change ourselves, the look we have upon the world.
Wish you a beautiful day
Marguy

Speaking for myself there are a couple of reasons why I'm very interested in NDEs. These are not in any order I'm conscious of at this time.

1) They provide rock solid evidence which proves beyond a doubt that we have a soul, separate from the material body (so called "veridical OBEs").

2) They provide consistent and cross cultural evidence which strongly suggests that there is an after life. Personally I also consider this proven.

3) I have recognized in many of these narratives what I have always 'instinctively' known to be the truth.
a) There is a God (lets not dispute imagery here; I'm talking on a functional level)
b) Love is all that matters (which is not bad for something so immaterial
c) There is no duality between good and evil; evil is a degree of absence of good; like shadows are to sunlight.
d-z) etc

4) I strongly object to the current reductionalist materialist world view held by many in the scientific community and many more who are inclined to scientism. My objections are based on my own spiritual experience. I have no choice but to reject any theory that so blatantly denies the validity of my own life experience while disregarding the massive volumes of evidence from people all across the globe and of all ages.

5) The reductionalist materialist world view has piosoned the church and (liberal) theology to such a degree that it is currently causing great personal suffering on a massive scale. I just cannot sit idly by and let this happen to people I love. Imagine caregivers today with a theological background 'counselling' the dying and grieving on the absence of an after life? For centuries the church has laden guilt and shame on people suggesting they may burn in hell forever, and now the new 'liberal' answer is "Just kidding, you won't go to hell but there's no heaven either.". I'll be frank with you; This hurts people and really pisses me off! Not that people can help getting caught up in the materialism that is raging like a wildfire through western civilisation. I don't blame them but the results are too painful to ignore. People are dying spiritually; with their whole lives still before them. It saddens me to no end.

6) The fate of many NDErs pains me too. They returned from the gates of death like heroes from a battle and then they are treated like they have lost their minds. They need people around them who believe them and take them seriously. Not just shrinks trained to mirror their own emotions back at them, but flesh and blood therapists with a real human heart; because that's simply what it takes for a 'heart to heart' talk! And we all need one of those from time to time.

7) I added in 7 because its the numerological symbol for wholeness. I can't hope to be complete, however many words I spend on this. There are so many compelling reasons I spend so much time researching this subject, talking to NDErs etc etc.

I, like you, like the fact that there are veridical NDEs. This allows someone with a scientific frame of mind to encounter the mystery without having to 'take it on faith' or to 'submit' to dogma. I know of people who have been on and off with religion, but when they read the hundreds of NDEs, they stay 'on' -permanently believing in the existance of the soul, higher self, or whatever we're calling it.

Also agree: I can't imagine counseling the dying without any notion of the afterlife. It seems like the main ingredient would be missing. All of us exist, and most of us want to continue existing. For an intelligence, god, awareness, or process to make us, and then to let us slowly realize (in our revelry) that it's a one-shot-deal -that would be cruel. Imagine the happy energizer bunny when you tell him, "That's it when your batteries run out!" Crestfallen and cruel. The NDEs show us that that empty, illogical scenario (in terms of awareness being a momentary flash in the pan) is probably not the fact.

One area that still seems to divide people is the idea of evil.
theory 1) the absence of anything good, or maybe extreme egoism
theory 2) something 'real' and not human, perhaps an energy parasite of some kind feeding on fear, hate and anger.

Many good people think only theory one is true, but anecdotal accounts of poltergeists and stuff like that seems to point to both being true. Whatever the case, I think the take-home lesson is to not play with symbols and rituals we don't understand, ie, black magic.

Another favorite topic of mine is intuition. Religious folks tend to talk about 'spiritual gifts', while spiritual-but-not-religious (mabe call it SBNR ?) folks tend to talk about developing internal senses (intuition, third eye, etc.). There seems to be a rift there too.

You might really enjoy going back and reading the posts by bfoster5705. His posts are very interesting. He's an expert in Kardecist spiritism. That tradition seems to match many ideas that NDE experiencers have described. I'm not endorsing the Kardecist movement, but it's interesting.

Yes, it is an enormous pity that ideas should divide people. I suppose its unavoidable when two different people base their identities on mutually exclusive beliefs. Its just an ego-trick, of course. In reality there will come a time when we can all see "eye through eye"...

I did say there is only good, didn't I. Not quite what I meant. The reason is that I don't believe evil can exist in the presence of good. It only works because the good that is god is so good as to make room for it to exist. The root reason for that is probably freedom of choice. As far as I know God respects this principle to the point that it appears to us to be a universal law. So yes, there are evil entities in my belief system, but they are of themselves relatively powerless, wielding only that power that is given / allowed them by god (or by an unsuspecting Ouya board user...). What I mean is there is not an (almost) equally powerful 'anti-god', there may be and end-boss of evil out there but it poses no threat to those who walk in the light. My beef with that strong image of evil (as it is in some evangelical/ right wing christian circles) is that it instills fear and fear itself is very definitely not a good thing. So, Yes. I absolutely agree with your take home lesson!

As to gifts; maybe our humanity IS the gift; our capacity for love and compassion, our freedom of choice, everything that makes us human. Spiritual gifts to me are part of the whole. They lie in our souls dormantly like seeds in the earth and will develop or not depending on nourishment, but they are part of our nature.

I have actually studied the works of Alan Kardec and they certainly resonate with me. I also agree with his statement that spiritualism is superfluous in theory, that Christianity contains all that is needed (again, in theory). The problem is interpretation. Fundamentalist biblical literalism is of course incompatible because it is inherently illogical (no offense, this is meant philosophically). Materialist liberal theology is also out, because it is the anti-thesis to spiritualism by claiming that the material world is all there is. I combine a liberal bible consideration with belief in the spiritual / transcendent, so there's absolutely no conflict to me. I just don't feel the need to consult with spirit guides as part of my personal spiritual practice. I prefer to turn to Jesus / God in my prayers, its what I grew up doing and feels natural to me. I do think it is quite important that people on the inside of the church help to spread understanding and love of those whose practices and beliefs differ from their own.

I think people are obsessed with nde's because they offer HOPE. Hope for a future. Hope for something more.
Spiritually starved individuals abound. And, we all crave reassurance.
God has been watching out for us all along. He is patient and waits for us to find to Him. Seeking is good.

Dennis
Agree. As I like to say, "If evil incarnate exists, it is on a short chain." It is probably even getting used as part of the learning to love process here. Kind of like tricking a car thief into washing your car or something...

Your points and comments here are very interesting. I share your views.

Unfortunately, the subject of the spiritual world , and the after life is very unpopular with so many people. I don't understand why they are scared, angered, or just simply closed minded about the possibility of the existence of life after we physically die. I do believe that it is healthy to question and to be skeptical to an extent, but not when the testimony and evidence is present. I noticed that even among those who believe in God, the subject of an NDE is dismissed as imagination or nonsense, when in fact these NDEs strongly confirm and support the existence of a creator. Many of my own friends and family members who believe in Christ are afraid to touch this subject.
So, it is refreshing to be able to have a forum, like this, and have these conversations here.
Natalie

Thanks Natalie, i'm also really glad that we have these forums where we can 'talk' openly about these things.
Maybe when others come across our discussions and see that it is not only possible to discuss these questions but also a lot of fun to do so they will join in or be inspired to talk about such matters in their own lives.
I know I find it hard to discuss these matters in my life with christians and non-christians alike.

I think the problem is that after adolescence, people tend to have built up for themselves a (more or less) rigid structure of (implicit) beliefs which they use to navigate the treacherous waters of life. Because this, often very complicated, structure is automatically tailored to fit their own (limited) experience, exposure to radically different experiences and ideas becomes harder and harder for this behemoth to accommodate. People feel the cracks starting to appear whenever anything out of the ordinary is encountered and instinctively shy away from the source of their frustration. In this way anything out of the ordinary becomes a threat to the stability of their view of "life, the universe and everything".

Christians tend to have even more of these structures than others. They are built up around theological dogmas which have been deliberately constructed and worked at for centuries to fit together quite tightly and offer the appearance of a strong and rigid dependable structure. Like a roman cathedral of faith.

Its a major part of our psychological make-up to need some sort of stability in order to interpret and give meaning to what is going on around us. Because of the lack of exposure to NDEs, OBEs and spiritual matters at an early age these matters are often left unaccounted for and therefore come to threaten the stability of our world view later on.

The thing is, people are looking for stability in the wrong place. They look to their own automatically built up, unquestioned implicit world view which is confirmed on all sides by the compatible views of those we associate with. As gregarious creatures, we tend to associate with people much like ourselves, confirming our world-views all the time. Those with differing views are often shunned. Churches can make this effect worse, at any rate they make the process more obvious through explicit dogmas, shared confessions and articles of faith.

If we could only derive our stability and meaning from unadulterated "basic trust" (in life, the universe, in God) we would not need these fragile ego-built static images to replace this trust and we would have no fear of anything at all.
We used to carve awesome looking gods out of wood and stone to protect us and give our lives meaning, these days we carve out elaborate mental images to do exactly the same. In the end they are no more real and just as easily cracked, broken and toppled.

I don't think we can change this issue of basic human nature in any short period of time. I really believe we can create exposure for NDEs etc to help people allow for these phenomena while constructing their inevitable mental images. The problem is that this will need to be done from an early age, while the images people have of the world haven't yet solidified to exclude these transcendent experiences.

This was not the way I thought this topic would go but I am very happy that it has .

I have a friend , Dennis that I wish for him to read your last post as it is what I have been telling him all along , but in different words.

I call it Programming .

That the Church , doesn't matter what flavor of church it is , or sect or what ever it is that they call themselves are simply programming the people to follow along in their own way the teachings of the church as they call it yet , this church is different from that church and that church is different fro another church and they all claim to be correct . Until someone rocks their boat and then that someone is the subject of whatever you wish to call it ........

I am just glad you said the same thing I have been saying but in much more elegant words ....

I guess I see this differently.
I had an nde forty years ago. It has changed and colored every day of my life. Yet, it was only a mere glimpse of what lies beyond. I do not think it should be made out to be some sort of religion of its own. To me this experience was very personal and pertinent to my life at the time, and daily, since.
What I brought back with me is a true, pure knowledge that God does exist. He wants me to love others. And, His spirit is always available for my comfort and guidance. I also was aware that I was not the one in control...there is a higher power...much more powerful than myself. I now have a knowledge that all is well. Even when I do not understand circumstances, I know that I simply need to trust that all is how it should or needs to be.

ano1 wrote:I guess I see this differently.
I had an nde forty years ago. It has changed and colored every day of my life. Yet, it was only a mere glimpse of what lies beyond. I do not think it should be made out to be some sort of religion of its own. To me this experience was very personal and pertinent to my life at the time, and daily, since.

This is my opinion ano1 ( weather its right or wrong )

What I brought back with me is a true, pure knowledge that God does exist. He wants me to love others. And, His spirit is always available for my comfort and guidance.

You have Knowledge, ano1...... Nothing could change your mind about what you believe......

I myself have Faith based on my OBE and what I have read here from the many stories of everyday people like yourself.

To me religion is a strict set of disciplines that must be followed that are set out by a certain group of people who are the leaders of that particular religion.

I dont know about you , but if I never set foot in a church again , my Faith that..............

there is a higher power...much more powerful than myself. I now have a knowledge that all is well. Even when I do not understand circumstances, I know that I simply need to trust that all is how it should or needs to be.

would not quiver in any way shape or form ....

What turned me off from organized religion was when I went to a church for service at the request of my friend ( the minister ) who was my fishing buddy , during the service to watch the people all raise their arms above their head when they prayed as they were following the example of the Minister.....

I personally do not need to be LED like a sheep , to believe what I believe .

I call this programming , which is the same as what I do when I program a computer to work the way I want it to work .........

As i said a few posts ago , my friend is very church oriented ( religious as I call it ) and I am what I call spiritual. We agree to disagree on our beliefs , or a better way to put it is we respect each others beliefs.

He openly admits that every time he turns around it seams like he is giving something to the church be it

Money
Labour
Time

and he is beginning to question a lot of it

He says " it seems like every time I turn around SOMEONE from the church is wanting my time to do something that they think is correct ...... "

Ano1,
I don't understand how you seem to see a difference between what I explained to be my understanding of the reason people turn off when NDE-experiencers want to share their message and what you went on to explain in your reply. I took it this was at least in part a reaction to my post because I don't see how it could be reacting only to what Garry said.

I think you meant to say that you don't have a built up image of how stuff works because you were given true Knowledge on a deeper level vs. building it up as you grow, like most others. Is that what you intended?
I also don't understand where my post (or Garry's reply) is "(...)creating some sort of religion(...)" .
That is definitely not what I intended (by the gist of his post, neither is Garry). I am certainly not out to create a new religion, I think we have enough of those already. What I do want is basically all the stuff you mentioned in your post!

I'm quite intrigued by this apparent misunderstanding, so I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me.
Sorry about this cross-fire of questions but I'm quite confused now.

That the Church , doesn't matter what flavor of church it is , or sect or what ever it is that they call themselves are simply programming the people to follow along in their own way the teachings of the church as they call it[snip]

Garry, I'm a programmer and a pastor too so I can relate both ways.

In effect; I agree. I object to the quality of the term though, because its almost like "they" (there's a dangerous word for you) are doing it on purpose. Most of the time they are just helping people find what they found; a pre-built construction for dealing with the questions of "Life, the universe and everything" (sorry for quoting Douglas Adams all the time, I can't help it). A lot of people really value this stuff and honestly think they can help. In many cases I guess it can be beneficial, up to a point. But its also problematic because it often leads to exclusion and worry.

Of course, people who have had an NDE will see all these human constructs for what they are. They are "All but straw!" to quote Thomas Aquinas reflecting on his life's work after he had what we would now call a probable NDE...

I'm not trying to be defensive in any manner. I hope I did not appear that way. I know the written word is not always well understood, as the intended inflection sometimes is muted.
I simply know of people here in the earth realm that have experienced a sense of 'emptiness', as if they were missing something...and when introduced to the teachings of the bible were amazed to find that they felt that emptiness filled. I believe God is love. I also believe there are many ways to find that love. Some seem to work better for different individuals.
My history has me not attending any organized church for over twenty years. Yet, I am and was always, able to find things in the bible that resonate fully with me and not cause disharmony with my experience. I need the Holy Spirit in my life, it is my connection to the other side ... to the love ...to the guidance. I like being with other believers, even if they haven't the conviction that I was imprinted with.I know of no perfect thing this side of there. Religions attempt to help with these things and I believe they do help many people. I have not personally ever been acquainted with negative church leaders. I guess I have been fortunate to find truly good people. Historically, I have dabbled with the spiritual movement and found it to be pretty exciting for a while. But, the personal 'God connection' wasn't there for me - Something was still missing. Now I hang out at a Christian church environment. Is it perfect? No. But it helps me to stay connected to the love. And I love to see others become connected too.

I get it now. Ano1.
I'm very glad to hear that you have come into contact with such understanding people. Our paths through life are seldom comparable and never the same, so its very easy to misunderstand one another. I guess I'm very lucky too because I have always felt connected to God. As a child I kept a small garden for god, just as a game (I was 4 or 5 at the time yet I can remember it as if it happened a couple of months ago).
Any church that puts people into contact with God who is Love is doing a great job in my opinion, the greatest job a person or organization can do actually.

On the other hand, I know from experience that quite a lot of churches are limited by their own dogmas which cause them to lose sight of the fact that 'He makes the sun come up on the wicked as well as the good'. This leads to idle judgment and the thing is that this premature judgment limits our own growth and all too often the love we feel for others. In its worst case it leads to a sort of ivory tower effect where the 'elect' feel safe and sound while the rest of creation is doomed to eternal damnation.

What I have noticed is that these theological problems are much more pronounced in church leadership and among theologians, where alignment with the relevant teachings is normally seen as vitally important. The regular folks are generally much less obsessive about these things. That's where I've also found the most real love, between people that truly care about each other, regardless of differences of opinion.

I also find wonderful truth in the Bible, but part of that has to do with the way I have learned to interpret it. Its like this: put on dark sunglasses and look outside; you will see dark clouds approaching on all sides. Put on clear glasses and you see fluffy white clouds. Nothing changes but your own interpretation. So it is with the bible. Anyone who knows just how much God is Love and realizes the far-reaching consequences of this is like someone with clear glasses on. People who believe God is judgmental and out for vengeance are reading the bible through dark sunglasses. In a sermon I once held I called them Singlasses.
Same world, same God, but boy do those glasses make a difference!

A lot of people really value this stuff and honestly think they can help. In many cases I guess it can be beneficial, up to a point. But its also problematic because it often leads to exclusion and worry.

Our world ( as we know it ) has been PROGRAMED not only by the churches but by the governments , the corporations, and any body else that see where they can get something from somebody else

To Live in Fear

We are controlled by Fear

Fear of going to Hell
Fear of Terrorism
Fear of what people will think of you
Fear of not fitting in
Fear of not making enough money as your neighbors
Fear of not driving a new car

And the list goes on

There is nothing to Fear except Fear itself
For everything is just as it should be

We are controlled by fear of " what if this happens " and we miss out on the enjoyment of life by not doing things because of it .

I like your analogy

Its like this: put on dark sunglasses and look outside; you will see dark clouds approaching on all sides. Put on clear glasses and you see fluffy white clouds. Nothing changes but your own interpretation. So it is with the bible. Anyone who knows just how much God is Love and realizes the far-reaching consequences of this is like someone with clear glasses on. People who believe God is judgmental and out for vengeance are reading the bible through dark sunglasses. In a sermon I once held I called them Singlasses.
Same world, same God, but boy do those glasses make a difference!

I have tried to get NDE experiencers to explain if they worry less (fear less) after their NDEs, but it has not been easy. Our traffic just isn't high enough yet for the thread to come alive. The people who submit NDE accounts don't always participate here.

Dennis, you might enjoy reading some of the 'CarolV' NDE material. I think the search box will bring it up.

WOW! YOU GUYS MADE MY MORNING/DAY/WEEK/YEAR!!! I have missed out on a lot! I wish I could comment further but my days are pretty hectic. But please know that I am a happy camper (sorry) when I can read your posts! ) NOTHING TO FEAR But "FEAR" ~ that being in the absence of LOVE... maybe?