I'd like to hear some more inside scoop on this fence issue. What it smells like is that Indycar didn't have the clout to get tracks to change their fencing so they made the choice to run the tracks as-is versus their only other alternative... refusing to run the tracks until this was changed (fully knowing the tracks would just shrug and say "no Indycar then").

If that is true then there probably wasn't much testing or research done on the issue because they probably didn't want to know what the data might show.

Hopefully I'm wrong....

I asked, and you are not far off the mark.

11-01-2011, 03:56 AM

Bball

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

An interview with Bruce Ashmore
Ashmore believes IndyCar needs a much more open rule book aimed at encouraging multiple car builders and more exciting cars. But he's convinced the IndyCar organization is lost amid the maze of spec car thinking and has given up any faith in a free and open market.

Quote:

The Way It Is/ An opportunity lost?
by Gordon Kirby

Last week I discussed the problems with racing Indy cars on high-banked ovals with Bruce Ashmore. At the end of last week's column Ashmore said he believes IndyCar has made only minor incremental changes both in terms of crash safety and eliminating safety problems with the dreaded 'pack racing'. This week we explore more of Ashmore's analysis of the new Dallara and discuss what the correct formula should be for Indy cars.

First of all, most fans and all the drivers, past and present, want to see more power. The fans want the drivers to lift for the corners, use the brakes, then get back on the power and drive their cars, using their advantage in every area to cleanly execute a pass rather than droning around in packs straining for lap after lap to gain the tiniest advantage. Using the brakes and throttle to best effect is what automobile racing was all about for most of a century until NASCAR invented restrictor plate racing and the IRL followed suit with its squalid little formula.

Personally, I think the classic CART car with tiny speedway wings was as elegant an Indy car as there's ever been. It worked well and put on a good show on all types of tracks with plenty of power--900 and upwards of 1,000 horsepower--to be able to pass and race back and forth. It was necessary to get out of the throttle for the corners and possibly use the brakes, then judiciously get back on the power. Ashmore believes the 2012 Dallara-Honda/Chevy/Lotus combination is only a small step in the direction of the old CART formula and falls far short of the objective.

"They're trying to go somewhere else to create what was there before," Ashmore remarks. "Well, that's not right. Go back to what was there before. I'm sure you can attain what was there before if you go back to that formula. There was nothing wrong with it. So just re-run it."
Ashmore has no doubts the power needs to be substantially increased.

"It needs to be 1,000 horsepower," he declares. "Going to 550 or 700 bhp is nothing. It's not enough of a change to make it interesting. It needs to be 1,000 horsepower. Then on the road and street courses and the mile ovals the cars will be a handful and will be hard to drive.

"You never hear the drivers talk today about how hard the cars are to drive. When I came into CART in the eighties every weekend was a struggle about how to keep the tires under the driver. You worked on that all the time trying to get the car through the whole race. But now everything is the same through the whole race. Everyone goes 'round and 'round at exactly the same speed with no change. They're not being strained. They're too easy to drive. And nobody can pass."

It's true not only on oval tracks but also at road courses like Mid-Ohio and Infineon Raceway where passing is equally impossible and a procession ensues looking more like Indy Lights or GP2 cars than full-blooded Indy cars. Given that the new formula is likely to retain the same characteristics as the old one the new Dallara's bodywork has been designed to attempt to reduce the chance of wheels interlocking and cars flying. The idea was a key component in Ashmore's BAT design and he believes the new Dallara doesn't go far enough in this regard.

"I've wanted to stop wheels interlocking and tread to tread contact for some time," Ashmore comments. "I worked on it and discussed it in the CART days and then in the IRL. When you're cornering at the maximum of the vehicle's grip as soon as the tires touch each other tread to tread one car lifts off the road and it goes sideways and then the crash happens.

"They think they've made some steps on that but they've still designed a car with a flimsy front wing, a flimsy piece of bodywork around the front wheels and no bodywork behind the rear of the front tire. The front tire is still exposed so you can still have a tread to tread or interlocking wheel accident which is what starts the flying accident. And that will still happen with the new car. They think they've solved it because that was in their mandate. But if you look at what they've designed the bodywork is not strong enough to stop the start of the accident."

Ashmore also believes not enough attention has been paid to the driver's seating position.

"I think the drivers need to sit more upright so they don't crush the driver's spine when they crash," he suggests. "I don't believe the seat is that much different in the new Dallara. They've made a change but it's only a small step. It's not a big enough change. We knew that the CART car had a problem and we needed to sit the driver in a more upright position.

"I know from the study I made to design our BAT car that the car you needed to make would not fit into an Indy car transporter. You need a more upright seating position and another four or five inches above the driver's head for the roll hoop and it's too tall to go into an Indy car transporter. It would have to go in a NASCAR transporter. But they specified the car had to fit in the current IndyCar transporter because the teams couldn't afford scrapping or modifying all their transporters.

"So everything is a compromise. They spent all that time going to a new car and then they boxed themselves into a corner. Then on top of all that they've further compromised it by telling the teams they've got to race on NASCAR racetracks."

Ashmore has a bleak view of the process that took place in last year's contest for IndyCar's 2012 car. He believes each of the contestants was used unethically by IndyCar and Dallara to produce the new car.

"In my view the way they went about it was quite dishonest. All of us competing car builders had to sign our ideas away. All our ideas went into a pot and we had to sign a document saying that if we didn't win the contract they kept our ideas.

"That's one thing, but the sad part is they awarded the contract to a racing car building company in Italy who are just building another in a range of racing cars. It's a lot like their other cars and they're not using all the ideas that we put forward. They're only scratching the surface and, as I say, making a five percent step. They completely ignored a lot of what we suggested. They've just done what they felt like.

"All of our ideas and Lola's ideas and Swift's and the Delta Wing group's ideas went in and they took our ideas to make this new car. But they only took a small portion of them so that they've only made a five percent step. So what's the point?"

Ashmore remains dismayed and deeply disappointed with the way the Iconic committee's decision unfolded.

"I put my heart and soul into the design of a car that I believe they wanted to win the bid. I designed what I thought should have been the next Indy car and it could have been used as a rule book or it could have been used as a spec car. I offered it both ways. It would have been a spec car built in Indianapolis with Indianapolis companies and suppliers. Or it could have been used as a rule book.

"We lost the bid because the winner put in a business plan, not a plan for the car. It was a building on Main Street in Speedway and a business plan for the build and supply of all the cars but nothing for the design of the car. The rest of us believed we were putting in a plan for the design of a car and that the winner would be the best design.

"I stand by the car I designed. It would have been a game-changer. It was a much bigger step change than what Dallara has done."

Ashmore also believes IndyCar has set Dallara up for some difficult if not impossible budget-balancing.

"They've been stuck to a budget," he says. "They've been told what price to sell the car for. People don't understand that when you dictate that you've got to have this carbon fiber chassis and carbon fiber wings and a lighter aluminum gearbox. They've dictated a lot of the more expensive items in the manufacturing but they've also dictated the sales price too. It's ridiculous.

"If you really want to have a cheaper price and better product then let the rules be open about the materials. Maybe you would use a lot more steel fabrication and the weight would go up but it would be cheaper. I believe the weight they set was unrealistically light and the materials are unrealistically expensive, so they have to compromise."

"If you look at the rules that they've saddled Chevy, Honda and Lotus with, they're going to build the same thing. Okay, there will be three different badges on three different engines but the rules are so tight that you can't make anything really different."

Nor is he aware of much if any activity in the Dallara project from the American or Indianapolis racing industry's component manufacturers and suppliers.

"The cars are being built in Italy and the gearboxes (Xtrac) are being built in England," Ashmore says. "I don't know anybody in America who's making components for that car which is very sad because IndyCar seem to have conned the government officials in Indianapolis along with the Indiana tax payers who ultimately are footing the bill for the grants to the team owners to subsidize the purchase of this new car, a car that was supposed to have had its components made in America."

Ashmore believes IndyCar needs a much more open rule book aimed at encouraging multiple car builders and more exciting cars. But he's convinced the IndyCar organization is lost amid the maze of spec car thinking and has given up any faith in a free and open market.

"You need to have a rulebook with a few simple rules," he says. "You've got to come up with something that reduces the downforce. The price will take care of itself because as soon as you've got competition in the pitlane one guy will figure out how to make a cheaper car and will outsell the other guy. That's what happened before in the CART days and that's what they need to do again. You need to have multiple chassis builders and multiple engine builders and you need to not run them on the tracks we know they don't work on."

Ashmore is a big believer in IndyCar returning to America's great road courses and developing a schedule of races much like CART enjoyed at its height.

"They need to go back to nice venues like Laguna Seca and Elkhart Lake," he comments. "The reason I thought CART worked so well was it had a very good mix of venues. The teams were owned by wealthy car owners and they wanted to go to nice places and they would bring along their friends who would bring along sponsors. So as the cost went up the sponsorship went up but there were nice places to go to. I thought it was really clever.

"We went to Canada in Toronto and Vancouver and then when we went outside North America we went to Surfers Paradise in Australia. All of them were really nice places and attractive to sponsors. Almost every race was a nice race to go to. There were a few odd ones like the Michigan 500 but they thought they ought to race there because it was near Detroit.

"It was fun and it worked, but you go in the paddock today and everyone is miserable. They don't have any sponsorship and they don't enjoy the cars or venues. They don't know why they're doing it."

Ashmore reflected on how CART's many managers and marketing men told the teams and the car and engine builders through the organization's hedays that the fans turned out only to see the drivers. There was little or no appeal in the cars or engines claimed those many geniuses who helped drive CART into the ground.

"When it was 1,000 horsepower and four engine companies were going at it and you had all the combinations of three different chassis and four engines we were always told that wasn't what the fans came to see," Ashmore recalls. "We were told they came to see the star drivers and we always wondered how true that was. We used to ask let's see what happens when everybody is driving the same equipment. Let's see how many fans you've got. I guess we have the answer to that today don't we?"

We've witnessed a sad, inexorably silly and lethal story over the past fifteen years. The lack of leadership, technically and otherwise, has been stunning. And so it continues.

I agree. There was so much I agree with that I had a hard time finding things to highlight. I wanted to highlight entire thing.

This has been my overriding thought for some time:Ashmore believes IndyCar needs a much more open rule book aimed at encouraging multiple car builders and more exciting cars. But he's convinced the IndyCar organization is lost amid the maze of spec car thinking and has given up any faith in a free and open market.

They need to step outside the box that has them thinking this spec car BS is actually saving teams money. If it's lowering fan interest then it's also COSTING them money. Let alone not forget the idea that with competition and budgets it's going to naturally control costs.

As for any ideas about Nascar having the right idea.... Has anyone been looking at the stands in Nascar lately?

11-01-2011, 04:45 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bball

I agree. There was so much I agree with that I had a hard time finding things to highlight. I wanted to highlight entire thing.

This has been my overriding thought for some time:Ashmore believes IndyCar needs a much more open rule book aimed at encouraging multiple car builders and more exciting cars. But he's convinced the IndyCar organization is lost amid the maze of spec car thinking and has given up any faith in a free and open market.

They need to step outside the box that has them thinking this spec car BS is actually saving teams money. If it's lowering fan interest then it's also COSTING them money. Let alone not forget the idea that with competition and budgets it's going to naturally control costs.

As for any ideas about Nascar having the right idea.... Has anyone been looking at the stands in Nascar lately?

Yes, yes and hell yes. The whole swindle of the spec cars in Indycar was because of the owners mooing about how expensive it was. Now there are a myriad of reasons why, but here are a few. Sole source supply was essentially mandated when they they killed off the little shops in Gasoline Alley that used to do all the fab work for the teams. How did that happen? Easy. The non Dallara parts had to meet such :bs: requirements it became cost prohibitive to produce them. Everyone was forced to buy Dallara parts. Then they began to charge what ever the hell they wanted for the parts. You would not believe how much markup went into the spares. It was as bad or worse for the Indy Lights cars. It would literally make you vomit. There was a parts shortage for the last several years manufactured by Dallara because they quit making spares. Guess who gobbled up all the spares? Want to know what caused a lot of crashes? Worn out parts. I know of at least two crashes from one team this year that were caused by running parts that should have been in a dumpster. Simona's "new car" that she ran at Indy was only 3-4 years old. The one she finished out the year in (never question her courage) was about 7-8 years old and should have been a static display. Because, guess who had all the "new" cars held back as spares?

Swift had a design that would have undercut Dallara for the new car. Lola would have kicked their ***, but they've been in bed with them for so long they can't say no. You just wait and see how soon the prices increase. Don't get me started on the engine lease swindle.

11-02-2011, 09:58 AM

BillS

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

My only question is how do you take it away from spec racing without going back to "which Penske driver will win" as the only unanswered question about any given race? I say this even while admitting that in recent years it has pretty much come to a few teams again, but even that is better than the foregone conclusion which was basically spec racing within a single team.

If you find Nascar's championship "competition" at all uninspiring, why would single-team dominance be something to get excited about again?

11-02-2011, 12:07 PM

Bball

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillS

My only question is how do you take it away from spec racing without going back to "which Penske driver will win" as the only unanswered question about any given race? I say this even while admitting that in recent years it has pretty much come to a few teams again, but even that is better than the foregone conclusion which was basically spec racing within a single team.

If you find Nascar's championship "competition" at all uninspiring, why would single-team dominance be something to get excited about again?

Is the manufactured racing of spec cars really any more intriguing? And that is assuming you dumb the cars down enough that any driver could win on any given Sunday. But doing that, what do you accomplish if the best teams and best drivers can't necessarily win because they are the best? And so what if Penske (or whoever the next Super Team is) wins a lot of races with a less spec format? Shouldn't the best team and drivers win?

And if a team does figure something out that gives them a huge advantage that should give others in the paddock something to try and figure out for themselves or find something else. If the team with the advantage stinks up too many shows/seasons you could always go back to the rulebook to negate some of their technical or financial advantage.

That all said, Penske does have a competitor now in Ganassi. I don't think it would matter if they were racing spec cars, fully open formula cars, or soap box derby cars.... those two teams would be competing at the top. Why shouldn't they reap the rewards of their hard work?

To me, racing has always been about the pursuit of speed thru technology and a driver capable of putting that to use on the track. I never have a problem watching a car pull away from the field.

Nascar has dumbed down racing to the point where I couldn't really tell you what is happening with the chase. It's boring and nap inducing watching Nascar these days. Indycar doesn't need to emulate that in any way, shape, or form....

11-02-2011, 06:47 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Penske has another big kid on the block in the Chipster. AGR used to have the largest engineering budget when they were the big team. That's what money buys you. Engineering. Shaker rigs, wind tunnels, coast down tests, testing, testing, testing. The ability to have full time people fitting body panels so they are perfect. Reducing drag. Machining. Figuring out how to make things lighter...You know...Cheating...:laugh:

Everyone is always going to buy the best moustrap (chassis) they can afford. They best way to "regulate" is through the engines, specifically the ECU. Have the engines at a set horsepower limit, seal them up and make it part of the tech inspection and hand out the sealed ECUs to the teams for the duration of the event and then take them back. They can have 1 ECU to used for testing or whatever. You can also limit in season testing.

11-03-2011, 09:31 AM

BillS

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

It's sort of like the whole "rich owner" situation in the NBA. I grew up a Hurtibise/Ruby type fan and still have a soft spot for the Sarah Fishers out there trying to compete with the huge money guys.

I want racing to be about the best driving, not necessarily about the best gadgets. I understand that there's an unintended consequence when everyone is pack racing, but I'd like to see a fix for that that doesn't go all the way back to the old days.

11-03-2011, 10:09 AM

travmil

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

I've said before and I'll keep saying, it should be COMPLETELY wide open. The best drivers are going to gravitate to the best teams with the biggest budgets and the most tech anyway no matter what you do so the only thing left to do is have a basic rule book.

The car must have 4 wheels
the car must have a front and rear wing (or not)
the car must be so many inches long, wide, and high

Other than that, give it your best shot and throw your badass toy out there and dare the other guy's badass toy to do better.

Now THAT'S a race I'd watch.

11-04-2011, 06:17 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Kinda agree with both points, as a racer, but how do we prevent the nuclear arms race from consuming the little guys that we all love so much? (And are such an important part of the 500). Truthfully, I never had a problem with somebody winning by a lap or two. That tells me that somebody really did their homework.

11-05-2011, 02:13 AM

SycamoreKen

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

I would find it more interesting if you watched a race and all the cars were not exactly the same, like back in the days when I watched it growing up. Some of the most unique race cars ever made ran at indy.

11-05-2011, 11:52 PM

Sandman21

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Good to see Rahal Letterman back in the circuit fulltime with 2 rides and even "Special" Ed getting into the ownership game with his own fulltime ride. Not sure where that leaves Sarah, but with those two teams and Shank Racing entering the paddock, at least not everything is doom and gloom.

11-06-2011, 09:21 AM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

At a minimum, look for SFR to do Indy. Hope she can get something together for a full time deal.

11-07-2011, 11:00 PM

Sandman21

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

I think SFR continues on the ovals for sure as they have in the past. Not sure who gets the seat though.

11-11-2011, 07:27 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

My favorite quote:
“So the car isn’t going as fast as we wanted or expected and we’re trying to identify why the theoretical world doesn’t match real world at the race track. At very high speeds, we have disparity in the data.”

And that, boys and girls, is the difference between a theoretical engineer and a practical engineer. The practical engineer would get on a golf cart and go watch it going into the corner and go watch the middle of the corner and watch it get out and figure it out in about 5 minutes...

I'm just trying to let this latest info seep in. First off, as far as I'm concerned it's another strike against this idea of spec cars somehow being good for racing and the sport as a whole.

If the car truly has a problem, well now every team has a problem. If the cars were allowed to evolve substantially and alternate manufacturers show up with their own chassis then we might have an actual race for the pole and technological breakthrus making for some raceday drama.

Without this spec stuff we could have grandfatheriing taking place... even with the spec stuff we could have grandfathering. With the current news, someone with last year's car might be feeling pretty good about their situation come May (if the spec rules didn't suddenly obsolete their car).

The Indy500/Indycar is going to have a bubbling undercurrent issue as long as (if the rules allowed it) someone could take an early 1990's Indycar out of mothballs and easily put it on the pole at Indy and win the race going away versus any of the cars we've seen since the 2nd half of the 90's.... and now the new 'next generation' car too.

Now that all said... If the idea is to make the cars harder to drive it sounds like that's exactly what they are. Up the HP to increase the speed and let the driver use the pedals to control the speed... he can use the brakes to play with weight transfer too for that matter.

I'm still lost on an issue tho... I keep seeing that Dallara got the Indycar contract at least in part because they were the only one making a pitch for it who didn't require they be the exclusive chassis supplier. Well, if that is true then why were they awarded the contract to be the exclusive chassis manufacturer? It seems to me the ICONIC committee could've came away from the process by saying we've accepted Dallara's proposal plus, since Dallara is not requiring exclusivity, nor are we willing to grant exclusivity, and so we will accept the designs from the competing companies to be part of our rulebook as accepted chassis for the Indycar series as well ...should they want to build cars without exclusivity being granted.

11-13-2011, 09:27 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that the devil you know is better than the one you don't. Plus I think the prevailing sentiment was that developing that many chassis along with the engine packages would be too expensive. As it is now, the big teams can eat most of the development costs and the little guys can get handed a fairly sorted out package.

11-15-2011, 05:28 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Looks like SFR is going to run two cars next year, looks like full funding is possible. Drivers TBD!!!

11-17-2011, 04:03 AM

Bball

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

If the 2012 Dallara doesn't get sorted out and ends up in running sub 220 speeds for Indy qualifying... I really fear for the future of the sport. I don't even know that the sport can not take a hit if the car is only capable of matching recent qualifying speeds. With the tests having it hit 208-216MPH at IMS, and Indy being the halo event with all the eyes... this is really the best (and maybe last) last chance to reconnect and find new interest in the sport.

This has the potential of "Epic Fail" swirling around it right now.

11-17-2011, 06:11 PM

DaveP63

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Reports are they are working hard on sorting the balance issues. HVM is signed up with Lotus/Judd. Probably won't get on track until January.

11-29-2011, 10:59 PM

Bball

Re: Indycar 2011- Lots to contemplate

Quote:

“I think the CFD model [Dallara’s] done is a bit too rudimentary, and it has bitten them in the end,” said one prominent IndyCar engineer with extensive CFD experience, who, along with another current IndyCar race engineer, voiced the same concern.

“They’ve out-smarted themselves. Look at the aerodynamics on the Formula One car they delivered for HRT. That thing was barely suitable for that series, and if you look at the [DW12], they’ve also come up woefully short. You can’t dabble in these things. I’ll just put it this way: every rudimentary Indy car CFD model I’ve seen has said the rear of the car needs more weight bias than it actually requires. When you see that data returned, it should be a prompt to spend more time on [improving] your model, not to go off and start making a car based off that weight distribution figure. I’ll bet you [taking] a shortcut on the model has set this entire chain of problems in motion.”

Quote:

Although the exact power figure being used in road course testing is unknown, it’s believed that manufacturers are right in the 600-650 hp range—close to the naturally-aspirated units that were used through 2011.

With a significant jump in downforce, similar weight, comparable power and a fundamental change in how that power is delivered, something as routine as spinning the tires out of tight corners has reportedly been a challenge with the turbo-powered DW12s.

The mothballed 3.5-liter atmospheric Honda V8s offered instant torque, acceleration, and forced its users to be mindful of aggressive throttle inputs. So far in testing, the 2.2-liter turbos (Honda uses a single Borg Warner turbo while Chevrolet and Lotus use twin BW units) have been incredibly responsive, with drivers applauding the lack of turbo lag, but the small-displacement engines, compared to their predecessor, offer minimal amounts of initial torque.

Simply put, stomping on the throttle in slow corners, at present, is met with nice and tidy acceleration. The “be afraid…be very afraid of touching the throttle” sideways moments drivers and fans were hoping for is nowhere to be found.