Well, after re-tooling the system a little bit in this thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18724.0 I've worked over the general concept, removed the universal required magic system in favor of a more creative, make-your-own-magic type system, and pretty much have it done, except for one thing: taking damage and health.

To bring everyone up to speed, characters in Neverwake are sad people dreaming the same dream together at the same time. It's a mythical, medieval place, and is designed to bring back what the characters lost in real life. Since the entire world of Neverwake is one big dream, I want to try to get the system of health and taking damage to reflect that, with a character's death representing them waking up - you die in Neverwake, you wake up, and can't go back.

Here's how it's shaping up so far: You have five dots of Health, and five dots of Lucidity. When you suffer damage, you bubble in one dot of Health. Suffer damage again, you bubble in another dot of Health. When you bubble in all five dots of Health, you bubble in one dot of Lucidity. Then, un-bubble all your Health dots. Then the process repeats all over again. If you ever fill up your Lucidity dots, your character dies, wakes up, disappears. That's it for them.

Now, the only thing I can't figure out is how to regain points of Lucidity. Once bubbled in, how do you un-bubble them? I'm really at a loss here. Since Lucidity represents your connection to the dream world, I'm thinking of something along the lines of having your character "ground" himself in the dream world somehow, to strengthen his connection to it. But, I have no idea how to achieve this. I've been thinking it over and can't come to any conclusions. Maybe I should just implement a generic hit point system? I'm open to suggestions. Once I have that part done, I'll have the project ready, and I'll provide a link in this thread for everyone who is interested to see.

Hi. I think weīve got an even number of posts or something, so here Iīm trying to help you.Actually I donīt see how your system differs from Hit Points. You have 25 HP, they are called Health Points, and every five of them, there is a fluffy thing where you lose some lucidity; also, gaining back one Lucidity point would be regaining 5 HP. You hit the last of your HP, youīre out of the game. I think youīve got (D&D) hit points, what, please tell me, would be the difference?

Anyways.In his free-for-download game "the shadow of yesterday" (http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday), wich I havenīt played but find to be really inspiring, Clinton R. Nixon lets players refresh their characters "pools" by doing a big let-go. You want to refresh your "vigor"? Have fun, vigorosly. Refreshing instinct is having fun instinctly. To quote the relevant bits:

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Whenever a pool is not at its full level, it can be refreshed, restoring it to its full level by the character performing an in-game action.Vigor is refreshed whenever your character engages in an act of physical exertion (including physical abuse, such as drugs, drinking, staying out all night) with another character, specifically for the intent of enjoying yourself.Instinct is refreshed whenever your character engages in an act of social pleasure (examples: a date, going to a party, playing a game of chance) with another character. Reason is refreshed whenever your character engages in an act of intellectual stimulation (examples: a night at the opera, a philosophical debate, playing a game of skill) with another another.

So basically, you get refreshed by letting go, just as in real life. Want to keep dreaming? Do something dreamy; wander around aimlessly, sing a song all by yourself, tell something a really crazy tinfoil-hat theory of yourself. I think the idea is to have the PLAYER come up with a plan that sounds reasonable.

Remembering my last dream, I think I woke up when something really weird happened. Or maybe something I really didnīt like. It was absolutely not HP-like; it wasnīt like a constant stream of "hurt" to my dream-state finally crossed some border (the 0 HP - border), resulting in me waking up. It was just dreaming things; next, some weird new thing happens that I fail to integrate into the dreamworld, and then I wake up. Thats what lucidity is aiming for, I think; failing to integrate. How to integrate that ruleswise, I donīt know. Think itīs a good concept?

Both of those two suggestions sound like similar examples of each other, to me. They also sound good - I've been thinking too linear on this thing, and it's really the suggestions from forum-goers here which have helped loosen the game up.

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Actually I donīt see how your system differs from Hit Points. You have 25 HP, they are called Health Points, and every five of them, there is a fluffy thing where you lose some lucidity; also, gaining back one Lucidity point would be regaining 5 HP. You hit the last of your HP, youīre out of the game. I think youīve got (D&D) hit points, what, please tell me, would be the difference?

How is the system different from D&D hitpoints? Well, it's more complicated. That's about it. You're right on that part - it's essentially a more complicated way of tracking hit points.

I want to integrate the two ideas used so far, but do away with the current hitpoint system. Have some sort of gauge of health that is replenished by strengthening the emotional investment the character has on the world. The game is, as Callan said, about the characters learning to accept loss - but before they do that, they have this imaginary world they've created that allows them to have everything. It's the strains of their own emotions and inability to accept what they do have over what they did that causes the conflict and strife here, the essential angst. As Jona was getting at, it's not physical pain you feel in a dream. It's a subconscious thing. Pain doesn't wake you up, a failure to keep the dream consistent and on-going is what does. How about this, then:

The characters are here in Neverwake to get their loss back. Therefore, to restore Lucidity (I'm not sure how I'll redo it, so let's just say it's a 5 point gauge - no Health gauge, just the Lucidity), they must shift the balance of love and investment between other attachments to their loss. Such as, ignoring friends or breaking promises to go be around what you lost and enjoy it. However the player decides this is done, as long as it's reasonable, is allowed. I'm thinking, mechanics-wise, maybe you have a chart of all your connections, and maybe you have a set number of "emotional investment" tokens that you allocate to each connection. You can move tokens from whatever connections you like to your loss, and gain that much health back. However, you must also roleplay this - you have to actually go to your loss and invest that time with them.

Of course, that is still essentially an HP system, but the way you interact with it would keep in with the theme of the game instead of the dream-world simulation. That would also mean that other things besides pain would affect Lucidity, such as inconsistencies in the environment, people acting a way they normally wouldn't, etc.

You guys are on a roll, you're really helping. How's this sound so far?

What if life was just one losing battle and the more lucid you got the more your "powers" slip away. You could also have it so that lucidity can never be regained and you permanently lose the 5 hit points.Regards, Seth

What's in a dream? This is a great idea and could lead to other interesting avenues. Group therapy in a cyberspace environment? Criminal rehabilitation? Non-physical wars? Hmmm....

I've attempted lucid dreaming and its difficult to stay in the dream and have perfect control. When I let loose and go along for the ride then I continue to dream. As soon as I attempt to control the details of the environment, then I wake up.

I like the idea of having tokens that you move around. That seems more fluid and chaotic where anything could happen. Using the stepped tally system is very structured and mechanical. It takes away from the delicious dreamy center.

It looks as if you have two extremes with loss in the center. Lucidity | Loss | Obscurity. The tokens of consciousness move around based on what happens in reality and fantasy. The number 25 has some significance?!?! so use that as the power of the mind. Initially the person has the majority of the points in Lucidity. This establishes a state of reality in the waking world. When the tragic event occurs then the points shift from Lucidity to Loss. Having most of the points in Loss puts the person into a weakened state--emotionally and physically. If the event was extremely powerful (8 points maybe) then 2 points move farther, taking the mind into Obscurity. Having the majority of points in Obscurity produces the dreaming, fantastic realm.

Originally, the tokens move because the person has Loss, denies it and then it moves to the fantasy arena. The same can happen in the dream world. A person receives damage then the token moves from Obscurity to Loss. Here's the interesting part: if the person does not accept what is happening, tries to rationalize it then those points can move from Loss to Lucidity. Denial of the fantasy world makes you Lucid. Acceptance of the Loss and working through maintains you in the dream state. I imagine the purpose of this dream world is to work through the original event that put the person here. If that event crops up in the dream world and the dreamer overcomes it then potentially the tokens move from Loss to Lucidity.

As said in another posting, use the tokens in the Lucidity | Loss | Obscurity to determine the effectiveness, power and health. Lucidity indicates control and purpose. Loss shows damage and stun. Obscurity is strength and raw power in the dream world. Examples:

Lucidity | Loss | Obscurity 18 2 5 Aware and very creative 16 5 4 Conscious, with recent tragedy, fantasizing about the good times 10 9 6 Distracted, focused on tragedy, thinking of "what if?" 5 15 5 Emotionally distraught, completely incoherent 5 11 9 Very upset about something, not really sure 3 8 14 Disturbed by what is happening yet feeling some comfort 3 6 16 At ease with bittersweet memories 2 4 19 Confident and carefree in the new world 1 2 22 Flowing and powerful, reckless and relentless 2 8 15 Strong but startled by the ensuing events 4 12 9 Can't believe this is happening, feeling weak 6 9 10 Determined to overcome this demon 8 7 10 Getting closer to the truth of the matter 10 4 11 A burst of renewed strength to finally slay this thing 15 1 9 It is done and finally can accept my loss and the denial of it all 22 1 2 I feel better and think I'll write an original RPG about the dream I just had!

What if life was just one losing battle and the more lucid you got the more your "powers" slip away.

, I would rather turn it on itīs head. Because what is a dream? It is not changing, not doing, not having power. So waking up would be gaining power. I would say, the more you are awake, the more power you got there in dream world. The closer to death, the bigger your power and impact. Thatīs what that terrible matrix movie was about: when youīve seen that itīs all a dream, you may never dream again, but youīve got powers.So for every bit of realising that maybe itīs all just a dream, you get the power to transcend it and change it. Troy wrote that, too:

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When I let loose and go along for the ride then I continue to dream. As soon as I attempt to control the details of the environment, then I wake up.

Also, that would mean no death spiral. I donīt like death spirals.

An idea I just got was this (because I like matches): Damage is what hinders your power to dream. It is seeing something sad, like a close person dying. It is suffering bodily harm. It is seeing something hard to believe, like magic,logical fallacies. It is, finally, losing something (that thing your game was about). Whenver you get damage, you do this (nothing more): you write down one point of Lucidity. Now, roll dice equal to your damage. Got a match? Wake up, donīt keep dreaming. No match? Keep on playing, you manage to integrate. Also, add one point to your ressources, because you now may act more conciously.Another point of damage? Roll dice equal to damage, wake up if itīs a match, gain one point. And so on.Regeneration works like this: After each game session, reduce Lucidity by one.

So your game is about people who have a sense of loss and are escaping this loss through a shared dream?

I think a neat idea if you are using a sort of pseudo hit points might be to reverse the way that type of typical system works. Why have normal physical things that damage you in a dream? If you are tying to escape loss, what if it is situations that force you to remember or address that loss is combat and can hurt you? What if instead of physical things doing damage to you, it's situations where your loss is brought up. If you face the situation you are pushed away from the dream, if you run away from the situation you become more powerful in the dream.

For instance, I make a character who has an issue with losing my child to a serial killer. In the dream I come across my child being abducted. If I face the situation and successfully challenge it then I am pushed away from the dream back towards reality as I'm starting to deal with my loss. I also become weaker in the dream which may make it harder to face other issues of loss that I have. If I run from it I'm embracing the dream and become mechanically stronger in the dream, however the more I embrace the dream the more I risk becoming lost in it and becoming catatonic in reality.

I'll get to the Q&A in a sec - but first, I think we're on to something, here. This post is long, way longer than I thought it would be.

I've integrated the point-based resolution system into a chart idea I devised with lots of help from the suggestions given here. It makes the process a lot simpler, I think. However, this is just a basic idea, thus far.

How it works is you take a blank sheet of computer paper. In one corner, write the name of your loss (also known as your Tragedy). In each of the other corners, you write the name of your strong, intimate connections that existed in your real life - things like friends that helped you through the hard times, family that let you stay with them, etc. Write one (or one group) in each remaining corner, so that all four corners are filled. These three intimate connections become NPCs within the dream world.

Now, put ten small tokens in each corner - pennies, scraps of paper, whatever - so that you'll have 40 total, on the paper. These tokens represent the emotional investment you put into each connection (including your Tragedy). No tokens in a connection's corner means you two are on awful terms, and may even hate each other, while 20 tokens may mean that you and that connection would trust each other with your life.

In the middle of the paper, write the word "Irregularities". An Irregularity is an inconsistency with the dream world as you see it. If something goes against your definition of how the world should go, you get an Irregularity. Too many irregularities, and your brain gets confused, and wakes you from the dream, thus ending your stay in the Neverwake dream world. It's the equivalent of character death in other RPGs.

This is your chart. Whenever you have to check for an action that might have a chance for failure, such as a skill check of some sort, to see if you accomplish something, you spend some of these tokens. This is pretty much the same as the point system I had going in the thread mentioned above, except we've just transplanted it onto this here chart. Here's a quick summary so you don't have to go check that other thread: instead of spending points, spend tokens. Start with three tokens, the Base for any action or skill check. Next, the GM decides what difficulties are associated with this action. The GM adds an additional token to the Base for each complication. After that, the player committing the action declares all the possible bonuses and benefits he would receive towards the action.

(For example: Dag the goblin wants to fish for some food. Normally we'd only spend tokens on more dramatic occasions, but we'll allow for an exception. So Dag wants to fish. This costs 3 tokens to start with - what we call our Base. Now, the GM decides which complications are involved with this, and assigns each individual complication a token which is added to the cost. The GM knows that the fish here are large and strong, compared to the frail goblin, so that makes it harder, and earns Dag another token (+1). Also, Dag's fishing pole is merely a stick with a length of thread tied to it, so that's another token (+1). To make matters even worse, predatory fish are scaring all the easily-catchable fish away, so that's yet another token (+1). So that's three tokens to start with, plus three additional tokens for all those complications. It now costs six tokens! However, Dag's player says that Dag is hungry, and therefore extra determined to catch a fish, so we take away a token for that (-1). Also, Dag is using an enchanted bait that draws fish near, so take another token away (-1). That leaves us with four tokens. To catch a fish to eat, Dag will have to spend four tokens.)

These tokens can be taken from any corner you choose, even taken from several different corners. One from each corner, two from one corner, one from another, one from another, all four from one corner - however you choose.

Now, about that big word "Irregularities" in the middle of your paper. If you encounter such an irregularity, as defined above, you must move one token from your Tragedy's corner (and only your Tragedy's corner!) to the middle of the paper by the word Irregularities. Have too many tokens here, and you're gone (not yet sure what amount will cause this.) This causes strain between you and your Tragedy. (Another thing I'm working with is to have it so that if you have no tokens in your Tragedy's section, and the last one went to the Irregularities pile, you're gone. Don't know if I want that yet, though).

So how do you get tokens back? When you make a character, you create a fantasy animal of your choice to represent your character within the dream world. In can be whatever you want it to be - even just a normal human. It's essentially a representation of your inner soul and how you feel on the inside, an avatar of your character. Your character will always be this in the dream world. Be it a satyr, unicorn, knight, witch, whatever - as long as it fits along with the medieval theme. This avatar is called a Myth. You'll give a certain number of Traits to your Myth which describe it, things like "Scheming and Underhanded," or "Obsessed with Nature". To get tokens back, you roleplay one of your Traits, and gain three tokens to put in any corner or to divide among the corners as you choose. I've kept this the only way to regain tokens so far, in order to encourage roleplaying your Myth, and to keep the bonds between you and your connections fragile, I feel it'll also make dramatic actions that require a token expenditure to be more tense.

How's that shaping up so far? It's far from perfect, but it makes the mechanics simpler, and helps deliver the angst and drama that the game calls for. It also, I feel, accurately portrays the dream world and it's tough choices. Irregularities can be caused by trying to change the world too much, and by altering and going against what's there - so if you just go along, you'll be okay. You may suffer, but, if you're willing to endure that for what you get, that's your choice.

I think this calls for a quick explanation of the plan of the game - you have this dream world where you can get the one major thing you loved back. You can only have this while you dream. Initially, your character wants this to happen. They see no downside to being around what they loss, having it again. However, as they continue their adventures, and see the strain that it's having on their other connections, the connections that were always there for them when their lost love couldn't be, then they'll have to make the choice - stay with the one thing they love more than anything (keep dreaming), or finally let go and learn to move on, and accept what you do have, and learn to love it too (wake up). Yes, waking up causes your character to removed from the game, but some stories shouldn't drag on forever. Sometimes choices have to be made. It's really about the choices you make and the realizations you come across on your way to making this choice.

Now, questions!

Jona's recent suggestion, with a few tweaks, is my runner-up in case this particular choice falls through. Along the lines of becoming more substantial and powerful the more you try to transcend the dream - which is what you don't want to happen, not immediately anyway - maybe something like, the more Irregularities you suffer, the more you start to see how wrong the dream world is, and the more you're able to further alter it to try to "change" it. Like, you gain X number of Irregularities, and things appear different - what seemed real and plausible before now just gives you headaches, and the more you find that the fantastic magic and enchantment of the world no longer works on you - and right as you get up to that last Irregularity, you see that the entire world is just entertainment from your brain, nothing more. It seems more of a supplementary rule that colors things more than directly applies, but it still makes good sense.

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So your game is about people who have a sense of loss and are escaping this loss through a shared dream?

I think a neat idea if you are using a sort of pseudo hit points might be to reverse the way that type of typical system works. Why have normal physical things that damage you in a dream? If you are tying to escape loss, what if it is situations that force you to remember or address that loss is combat and can hurt you?

That's a good point, and I think the Irregularity system works that out. Whatever goes against the dream is what causes the damage. If I'm reading you right, then what I have put would allow for your suggestion, and for a broad spectrum of other things. Essentially, you would define the dream world as it applies to you, and what you expect to happen there ("me and my Loss will get married all over again, and live life in a beautiful castle!"). What ever goes against your outlook of the world causes an Irregularity (I'm so tired of typing that word). It would work the opposite of how you're saying it - pushing away from the Loss causes you to wake up faster, while hugging on to it causes the dream to stay - but the basic idea is still intact, I think. As long as it goes towards your goal, it's fine.

Troy, I read over your idea, and used it as a basic model, where instead of determining characteristics of the self, it determines characteristics of your relationships. However, I have to say, beyond my mutilation of your idea, it's a really good concept that I might still for other projects :p

Thanks again, guys. This is shaping up to be a lot more than I thought it would! Feedback is still appreciated, as I'm far from having this thing complete. What's your opinion of the concept so far?

That does seem like it would approach my offer some. I think I was missing what you meant by dreaming. I was seeing "Dreamscape" when it seems you are shooting more for medieval, "What Dreams May Come." If you haven't seen the later I'd highly recommend it as it seems to have similarities to what you are going for.

I really like the idea of using four corners for the character sheet.

I hate to possibly cause you to type irregularities more, but I'm curious about them. (Perhaps you could copy and paste the word? *grins*) What causes irregularities? Are they caused by collision with other dreamers desires? Is there something deeper that causes them? If you grow in power as irregularities come up, can you explore the "why" of Neverwake?

I'm also curious, if my character spends time with someone, how real is that person? Say using my example from before, my character spends time with the daughter he lost to the serial killer. How real is she? Maybe this is something you want to keep ambigious, which is fine, but I am curious.

I hate to possibly cause you to type irregularities more, but I'm curious about them. (Perhaps you could copy and paste the word? *grins*) What causes irregularities? Are they caused by collision with other dreamers desires? Is there something deeper that causes them? If you grow in power as irregularities come up, can you explore the "why" of Neverwake?

I have worked out a rough cosmology of sorts that works things out for the game. It not follow established theories of how dreams work, as it's purely for mechanical flavor, but it works, I think. Note that I'm also taking some liberties here with the human mind and what it does, and I'm not sure how accurate this is, but here goes:

Essentially, you have two parts of your brain. There's the Creative and the Rational. The Creative is the imaginative, weird, fun part of the brain, that sets the stage for dreams. The Rational is the logic part of the brain that figures things out and understands. Somewhere in the middle are your Emotions, most of which have been upset and raging ever since your Tragedy.

When you dream up your dream world, it's because your emotions finally need to express themselves. So the Creative, being the fun guy that it is, creates a world for your Emotions to interact, most of which (but not all!) manifest as living beings. In this sense, the castles and forests of Neverwake are your Creative, and the knights and peasants are your Emotions. While this blur of activity occurs, your Rational watches from afar, making sure things don't get out of hand, because when the Emotions and the Creative get together, it makes weird happenings and odd occurrences that the Rational, being the logical and analytical part of you, just doesn't like. But for now, the Rational will let the dream continue, so long as these weird happenings are kept in check. Imagine the Rational being the police who keep driving by the Emotion's loud party, just waiting for someone to go jumping off the top of the roof or something equally drunk and unnecessary so that it can arrest them, and you have the idea. The Creative in that example would be the house the party's at - and, in a manner of speaking, also the host who allows the party.

Anyway, in this dream world, your Emotions are flying around, exploring and searching, fading and growing in intensity. Your Emotions have a threshold for how intense they can get before one of those weird happenings, mentioned above, occurs. Your Emotions become too much for the Creative to handle, and the Creative - being a laid back guy - just allows the weirdness to go on once the threshold has been passed. This then catches the eye of the Rational, who swoops in to stop this weirdness right away.

This is the basic idea of the irregularities (argh!).

The Rational mind can't just swoop into the dream and mess around, that's outside its boundaries. So it creates the Nightmares - black shadowy figures that appear and attempt to stop the irregularity by any means necessary. These Nightmares are the Rational's fantasy being form that it creates to enter the dream world. Is there a waterfall flowing upwards? The Rational sends a Nightmare to force the water back down. Is there a wizard who's causing parts of the dream world to fall apart? Then the Rational sends an assassin to kill him. (Note that not all magic is punishable - magic is okay in Neverwake, since it fits in with the fantasy world - just so long as it doesn't go too far).

Nightmares are the antagonists for the characters. The Rational also notices that the character is spending heavy amounts of time with the person he or she lost, and is straining the relationships of others. This is barely tolerated, but allowed, but if the loss gets too much attention in the limelight, the Nightmares realize that this shouldn't happen, and swoop in to kill the loss (it's like when you're dreaming about a friend or family member who died, and when you finally realize, 'Hey, you're dead', you wake up). Naturally, the characters wouldn't want their losses to go away, so they combat the Nightmares, and sometimes flee their apparent wrath. The characters can just hide it out, or openly fight the Nightmares, or whatever - but once the irregularity is dealt with or put aside and cast away, then the Rational is satisfied and recalls the Nightmares.

So, what exactly causes an irregularity? The current definition is "an inconsistency with Neverwake". The characters will create their own view of the world and fill it out on their character sheet - what they expect, allow, and disapprove of in the world. If anyone's world view is violated in this way, it causes them an irregularity. I'm not sure how the rule will work in its entirety, as it is just a concept at the moment. But so far, it creates a dynamic where the group explores opinions and beliefs with each other, and I like that.

As far as growing in power grows, my standing idea is that you become more "real". Your Myth starts to represent just a normal guy, you start to lose special abilities, and the world in general disorients you. However, you become stronger, in a sense - you start to become part of the Rational. You gain power and authority and start to see the world as foreign, strange, and hostile, and probably act on that. Of course, as stated before - too many irregularities, and the Rational takes over, evicting you from Neverwake. This is the only time you leave the dream world.

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I'm also curious, if my character spends time with someone, how real is that person? Say using my example from before, my character spends time with the daughter he lost to the serial killer. How real is she? Maybe this is something you want to keep ambiguous, which is fine, but I am curious.

When you get in the world, your Loss does not recognize you. They're there, but you have to meet them all over again, and convince them of who you are and who they are. This could be disastrous or fruitful. Either way, you and the Loss feel a strong connection, and are drawn to each other, even if you grow to hate each other for some reason. They don't become any more or less real as the game progresses - they are figments of the dream world, always - but the more irregularities that pop up, the more tokens your Loss loses, the more they start to become twisted, shallow, depressed, and hurtful - a representation of your worst fears of what could happen between you two. And then the Nightmares swoop in.

Thank you for posting, Clyde - I hope I answered your questions. And after another day or two of fleshing out the new rules, I think I'll be ready to publish this thing.