Also I agree using GPS is better than not using it. I just dont agree that it is better if it requires you to reach down to the phone and look at the phone screen. Most people do not mount their phone on the dash and it is down in a center console which usually requires someone to look down at a significant angle as well as remove 1 hand from the wheel to adjust how the phone is situated.

But as you describe yes I agree GPS is better than no GPS. I was making the assumption that you had your phone situated like most driver's I've seen and it required more than a super quick passing glance to see it.

DougE wrote:I'm with you Fish. I have a hard time believing it too. I have built-in bluetooth which automatically connects to my phone as soon as I start the car. My phone can stay in my back pocket. When calls come in, I answer with a button on my steering wheel, which is easier than turning on the wipers or changing the station on my radio. When calling someone, I just hit the button and say "Call Joe" or "Call 321-234-5432". When I hang up, I hit the button on the wheel with my thumb. At no time do I have to ever remove my hands from the wheel to press the button. When talking, it's no different than talking to a passenger in the car with me. Are we also to believe that it's dangerous to have a conversation with your passenger? If so, then they should stop promoting HOV lanes so we all drive solo and pay attention to the road and only the road. Give me a break. I want to see the "proof" of hands-free being equally dangerous. That's ridiculous. Next, singing along with the radio will be proven to cause deadly accidents. C'mon, who is doing these "studies?"

The reason why talking on the phone is more dangerous than talking to passengers whether you are using a hands free device or not is because our brain has to work harder to talk to someone when we don't have visual cues (like gestures and facial expressions) to clue us into what is being said.

The thing that I remember the best about the study I participated in is that they would say whacky stuff like "there are 365 days in a leap year". Sure, wait. Are there? ...crap, I just hit a cone. "Your father's grand daughter is your niece". Um...crap...cone, cone, cone, cone.

Another interesting data point is that when we switched to hands-free devices exclusively as a company, our accident rate due to cell phone usage increased dramatically (by over 400% year-over-year). That was probably because the usage of cell phones while driving also increased, but that is part of the danger. We, as a society, think it's okay to use a hands free device, but the fact is that it is just as dangerous.

We now ban the use of all cellular communications, as a company, while operating a motor vehicle. It's only a matter of time before the law follows suit. If you get into an accident, that should give law enforcement probable cause to pull your call and text history. If you are found to be talking or texting at the time of the accident, you should go to jail for a very long time whether the accident was your fault or not. Because the vast majority of all accidents (the source I cited above says 94%) can be prevented by either driver.

I find that really interesting and pretty hard to comprehend (although I could potentially be wrong).

The main issue I see (I only spent 3 min looking at it so far) is that all studies seem to be done between 1995 and 2010. Handsfree devices are much more integrated now than they were 7-20 years ago. As Doug describes I use my phone connected via bluetooth to my car and my phone can be in the trunk of the car* and I can do everything I need via voice commands or buttons on my steering wheel. Old "handsfree" devices sometimes required you to push a button on the headset and that would require removing at least 1 hand from the wheel.

So I'll look more into it later to see HOW they actually did their research. I'm extremely interested in looking at it more later as that seems counter intuitive to what I've noticed, but that is why research is done so...

*Fake news I have a truck and therefore don't have a "trunk".

The interesting thing about this is that I have repeatedly asked for data that shows that keeping both hands on the wheel at all times is safer than driving with, say, one hand. No one has been able to provide that data, so I'm not convinced that "keeping your hands in the 10 and 2 o'clock position at all times" poses any safety benefit. Especially considering the fact that I constantly have to remove a hand from the steering wheel to shift, and there *is* literature out there that says driving a manual *is* safer than driving an automatic. That's something I read at least a decade ago, though, so it would take time to dig it up.

First off, easily integrated blue tooth apps have been avaialble in cars for quite some time. My 2006 MINI Cooper had one. You activate the blue tooth on your phone, hit the button on the dash, and wham. You're synched up. Our company vehicles started having these easily integrated hook ups with the 2008 model year. Prior to that, it was sporadic.

I can't remember exactly when I participated in the study that I mentioned in the earlier post, but it was after that when I really began to push my company to make all cell phone use while driving against company policy. Instead, they went and started issuing blue tooth sets to everyone. It drove me insane.

When I brought this up to our safety directory, he agreed with me and joined me on my crusade. When we talked to the executive level and to the legal department, their only concerns involved the legal liability our company could face, and since blue tooth head sets were legal in all states, they had no concern at all.

A couple of years ago, we had an accident. It was a contractor who was working for us, and we hold our contractors to the same level of standards as any of our in house employees. He blew through a red light at an intersection that he was very familiar with. He went past a half dozen stopped vehicles, plowed right into the intersection, and got broadsided. The contractor didn't survive. He was talking on the phone via a hands free blue tooth set.

Our company changed policy after that. I can't take any blame for what happened, but I can't help but think that maybe if we had tried something different, we might have saved this guy's life.

Obviously, anytime your gaze isn't directed at the road leads to increased hard. We had a recent claim where a college student looked down briefly because his wallet slipped down between the seat and console. He looked down, trying to fish it out, swerved and killed another student bicyclist.

Fifteen years of auto claims has proven to me that alcohol is responsible for far more casualties than cell phone usage, and it's not close. Texting doesn't cause you to enter the freeway going the wrong direction or blow through a red light at 70 mph broadsiding some family's minivan.

People very rarely drive with the requisite amount of attention required by jury instructions, even when not texting or drinking. We live in a world with lots of cars and lots of distractions.

Duke of Hazards wrote:Obviously, anytime your gaze isn't directed at the road leads to increased hard. We had a recent claim where a college student looked down briefly because his wallet slipped down between the seat and console. He looked down, trying to fish it out, swerved and killed another student bicyclist.

Fifteen years of auto claims has proven to me that alcohol is responsible for far more casualties than cell phone usage, and it's not close. Texting doesn't cause you to enter the freeway going the wrong direction or blow through a red light at 70 mph broadsiding some family's minivan.

People very rarely drive with the requisite amount of attention required by jury instructions, even when not texting or drinking. We live in a world with lots of cars and lots of distractions.

Another key difference is that when you are drunk, you are drunk the whole way home. If you get a text, it's a momentary distraction.

The only real solution to all of this is self-driving cars. I, for one, can't wait.

bryan k wrote:
The only real solution to all of this is self-driving cars. I, for one, can't wait.

Me either.

I'm just frustrated that legislators are basically requiring "error proof" self-driving cars. Where as no one is requiring "error proof" people driving cars.

There are a considerable number of self driving cars here in Phoenix. About six months ago, I looked through an accident report listing involving them, and every single one of them was driver error. To the best of my knowledge, the only actual "computer error" accident that was serious involved a car broadsiding a semi tractor trailer at highway speeds because the sun was at an angle that interfered with the sensor's ability to detect the massive object up ahead. The driver should have taken over, but he wasn't paying attention.

I think Google and Uber both have self-driving cars here in the Phoenix area. I'm pretty sure there is a third company too, but I can't think of who it might be. Every single accident that occurs with a self-driving car gets reported on heavily, and the unfortunate part is, the news reports disappear before they find who was at fault. I tend to follow these stories, though, because it is a technology I'm extremely interested in.

There have been a fair share that are the fault of the driver of the self-driving car, too, but that is still human error. I need to clarify my previous statement, though. The one that was the fault of the car was actually a Tesla in it's "autopilot" mode. I would also rule that one the fault of the driver, though, because he should have been paying attention. The Tesla system is not a self-driving car. It's supposed to be used as assistance.

bryan k wrote:The only real solution to all of this is self-driving cars. I, for one, can't wait.

Same here. Looking forward to cutting off these robot cars--don't have to fear any road rage retribution. I tell you when these cars start mixing with human drivers, they are going to get walked all over. "Sorry to cut you off there HAL, but on this planet humans have right of way over bots. Oh yeah? What are YOU gonna do about it?"

The human race is just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet, orbiting around a very average star in the outer suburb of one among a hundred billion galaxies

bryan k wrote:The only real solution to all of this is self-driving cars. I, for one, can't wait.

Same here. Looking forward to cutting off these robot cars--don't have to fear any road rage retribution. I tell you when these cars start mixing with human drivers, they are going to get walked all over. "Sorry to cut you off there HAL, but on this planet humans have right of way over bots. Oh yeah? What are YOU gonna do about it?"

I have a feeling that this problem will take care of itself. Self-driving cars are going to have those little black boxes like airplanes have. Every single move will be documented. That means if an asshole driver gets into an accident with a self-driving car, the odds are very high that the asshole driver will be found at fault. I'd be willing to wager the odds at 100 to 1 or worse that self-driving cars will be found at fault for accidents.

I can't vouch for the veracity of this, but according to one of our vendors (who I can't get more specific about) claims that there have already been successful lawsuits pressed against people who mess with self-driving cars. A word of warning: just don't. Everything you do around a self-driving car will be on camera.