Updated: 7:25 p.m. CT June 20, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military recovered the bodies Tuesday of two missing soldiers from an area it said was rigged with explosives. An Iraqi official said the Americans were tortured and killed in a “barbaric” way.

An insurgent group claimed the new leader of al-Qaida in Iraq executed the men personally, but it offered no evidence. The U.S. military did not confirm whether the soldiers died from wounds suffered in an attack Friday or were kidnapped and later killed.

The discovery of the bodies dealt a new setback to U.S. efforts to seize the momentum against al-Qaida in Iraq after killing its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, in a June 7 airstrike. Violence was unabated Tuesday, with at least 18 people killed in attacks nationwide, including a suicide bombing of a home for the elderly in the southern city of Basra.

Coalition forces spotted the American soldiers’ bodies late Monday, three days after the men disappeared following an attack on their checkpoint south of the capital, the military said. But troops delayed retrieving the remains until an explosives team cleared the area after an Iraqi civilian warned them to be alert for explosive devices.

“Coalition forces had to carefully maneuver their way through numerous improvised explosive devices leading up to and around the site,” the military said in a statement. “Insurgents attempting to inflict additional casualties had placed IEDs around the bodies.”

Awaiting autopsies, DNA testing
Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said the bodies were found together in the vicinity of an electrical plant, which would be just a few miles from where the initial attack took place near the town of Youssifiyah in the volatile Sunni Triangle south of Baghdad.

Caldwell said the remains were believed to be those of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore. The bodies will be flown from Kuwait to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware for positive identification through autopsies and DNA testing.

Menchaca’s cousin Sylvia Grice said the soldier visited relatives in Texas last month but didn’t talk much about the war.

NBC VIDEO

• Al-Qaida reverts to brutal tactics
June 21: Al-Qaida murdered two U.S. soldiers in a 'barbaric way' according to government reports. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski explains why the terrorist group would choose now to carry out such grisly killings.
Nightly News

“He wanted to go out and visit his friends,” she said. “He wanted to eat a hamburger. He didn’t want to sit down and talk about what was going on. But he was very proud of serving his country and he believed in what he was doing.”

'Barbaric' deaths
The director of the Iraqi Defense Ministry’s operation room, Maj. Gen. Abdul-Aziz Mohammed, said the bodies showed signs of having been tortured. “With great regret, they were killed in a barbaric way,” he said.

The two soldiers disappeared after an insurgent attack at a checkpoint by a Euphrates River canal, 12 miles south of Baghdad. Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Mass., was killed in the attack. The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division from Fort Campbell, Ky.

Caldwell said only a single vehicle carrying the three U.S. soldiers was attacked. A witness has said two other Humvees were in the area and went after the assailants, while seven masked gunmen ambushed the third Humvee.

Some 8,000 Iraqi and U.S. troops searched for the missing soldiers. One U.S. soldier died and 12 were wounded during the search, Caldwell said, adding that coalition troops killed two insurgents and detained 78. The troops received 66 tips, 18 of which were considered worthy of follow up.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of five insurgent groups led by al-Qaida in Iraq, posted an Internet statement Monday claiming it was holding the American soldiers captive and that “we shall give you more details about the incident in the next few days, God willing.”

Iowanian

06-20-2006, 09:47 PM

You'll have to pardon me if I'm feeling less than sorry for those insurgents being "tortured" by Americans.

That entire Triangle deserves the wrath of US troops.

The US sends a woman in a skirt in a room with a bomb maker who hasn't had his nap....the world gasps.

You'll have to pardon me if I'm feeling less than sorry for those insurgents being "tortured" by Americans.

That entire Triangle deserves the wrath of US troops.

The US sends a woman in a skirt in a room with a bomb maker who hasn't had his nap....the world gasps.

Radical, murdering assholes, Torture, Behead and Burn 2 American POWs..and its crickets.
What instances of torture are you feeling less than sorry for? Normally, I'd say that the insurgents fighting fire with fire doesn't justify any misdeeds on our part.

Iowanian

06-20-2006, 10:05 PM

So, you're going to justify the brutal torture, beheading and burning of POWs who happen to be US Soldiers?

I hope the payback is brutal to those with any inkling of responsibility.

Reaper16

06-20-2006, 10:11 PM

So, you're going to justify the brutal torture, beheading and burning of POWs who happen to be US Soldiers?

I hope the payback is brutal to those with any inkling of responsibility.
Hell no. I'm pissed off, to be frank. There need to be repercussions; payback of some kind. I just don't see how torture justifies torture.

WilliamTheIrish

06-20-2006, 10:14 PM

Wait till the video hits the airwaves.

Although I wonder of the radical Islamists have learned anything from showing beheadings. Maybe they'll not send this video to al Jazeera.

Iowanian

06-20-2006, 10:27 PM

I think you misread my intent reaper.

I'm saying that the slightest of bullshit is considered "torture" when its Americans involved on the other end....

I don't want to see torture per se, but I do wish they Army would Kick the Cameras out of Iraq for a month and Do what really needs done.

Brutality is the only thing terrorists understand. I'm positive the 101 is going to be angry...

I wish they'd start leaving a piece of bacon in the mouth of every terrorist killed, and feed the true assholes to some Pigs on Al Jazeera.

That would end the "martyr" bullshit faster than anything else I can think of at this time.

I should just avoid this shit....Tomorrow, when the sympathizers show up here, I'll just get too pissed.

Logical

06-20-2006, 10:46 PM

This is terrible that this shit happens, I hope they capture them and make them pay. It also makes me feel even more strongly that we need to get our men and women out of there before more such incidents occur. We are sacrificing them for no benefit to our country at least as far as can be discerned by the statements coming out of the administration.

Rausch

06-20-2006, 10:49 PM

Hell no. I'm pissed off, to be frank. There need to be repercussions; payback of some kind. I just don't see how torture justifies torture.

It doesn't.

But the guy who's better at it lives and the other guy doesn't.

Logical

06-20-2006, 11:00 PM

It doesn't.

But the guy who's better at it lives and the other guy doesn't.I would like to believe that because we are a moral society that we cannot win playing the torture game. Maybe I am just being an idealist, but I would like to think we are better than that.

go bo

06-20-2006, 11:00 PM

I think you misread my intent reaper.

I'm saying that the slightest of bullshit is considered "torture" when its Americans involved on the other end....

I don't want to see torture per se, but I do wish they Army would Kick the Cameras out of Iraq for a month and Do what really needs done.

Brutality is the only thing terrorists understand. I'm positive the 101 is going to be angry...

I wish they'd start leaving a piece of bacon in the mouth of every terrorist killed, and feed the true assholes to some Pigs on Al Jazeera.

That would end the "martyr" bullshit faster than anything else I can think of at this time.

I should just avoid this shit....Tomorrow, when the sympathizers show up here, I'll just get too pissed.the actions of the terrorists are indefensible from any rational point of view...

it isn't suprising that islamic radicals would use medieval tactics, since they seem to be stuck in that era...

but i wonder if their intent isn't to provoke us to take excessive measures to drive a wedge between the populace and us (a bigger wedge than there is now)...

just like the attack on the shia shrine provoked violent backlash from the shia against the sunni, playing right into the terrorists' hands...

nevertheless, i hope whoever was involved in this latest abomination gets their share of justice like whoday and whosay and zarkawisay...

Rausch

06-20-2006, 11:07 PM

I would like to believe that because we are a moral society that we cannot win playing the torture game. Maybe I am just being an idealist, but I would like to think we are better than that.

The scumbags we're fighting now developed their political beliefs meeting with Hitler's underlings.

These terrorists aren't any better or worse than the Nazis or Japanese. You go to war or you don't. Don't half-ass it...

go bo

06-20-2006, 11:08 PM

I would like to believe that because we are a moral society that we cannot win playing the torture game. Maybe I am just being an idealist, but I would like to think we are better than that.just in our lifetime, there have been many dictators who have relied on torture to stay in power but who eventually were driven from office...

torture as a policy just doesn't work in the long run...

and like you, i like to think we're above that, but it would be hard for me if i was in iraq with the 101st right now...

i'd be thinking about payback, that's for sure...

go bo

06-20-2006, 11:18 PM

The scumbags we're fighting now developed their political beliefs meeting with Hitler's underlings.

These terrorists aren't any better or worse than the Nazis or Japanese. You go to war or you don't. Don't half-ass it...i agree that going to war and half-assing it is not a good idea...

in most ways, i think the terrorists are much worse than the nazis or the japanese...

their political beliefs and their religious beliefs are pretty much the same thing and haven't really changed since medieval islam...

convert or kill the infidel everywhere and reestablish the califate, for beginners...

and kill off the apostates, too...

including all those pesky shia...

religious nuts are usually among the worst oppressors and every one of the (sunni) terrorists is a religious nut seeking paradise...

if extemism continues to grow in the sunni world, we could be in for a very very long war, just as the president has predicted...

SBK

06-21-2006, 03:20 AM

if extemism continues to grow in the sunni world, we could be in for a very very long war, just as the president has predicted...

That's what they make atom bombs for...

:) I'm just kidding.

memyselfI

06-21-2006, 05:11 AM

This is terrible that this shit happens, I hope they capture them and make them pay. It also makes me feel even more strongly that we need to get our men and women out of there before more such incidents occur. We are sacrificing them for no benefit to our country at least as far as can be discerned by the statements coming out of the administration.

:clap:

It is even more tragic when you read the mother and uncle of one of the soldiers were against the war to begin with....so sad.

A statement from Maria Vasquez said, "I am against the war and I feel very hurt by what has happened to my son."

What instances of torture are you feeling less than sorry for? Normally, I'd say that the insurgents fighting fire with fire doesn't justify any misdeeds on our part.

It was "torture" in quotes and he gave a specific example in his post:

The US sends a woman in a skirt in a room with a bomb maker who hasn't had his nap....the world gasps.

Your "fighting fire with fire" comment is sickening and disgraceful.

memyselfI

06-21-2006, 06:36 AM

It was "torture" in quotes and he gave a specific example in his post:

Your "fighting fire with fire" comment is sickening and disgraceful.

What is sickening and disgraceful is Fox News*, and apparently others, trying to equate a perceived 'lack of outrage' with some how tacit support of and/or tacit approval of the actions perpetuated against these soldiers. Most of us are hearing the details of this horrific situation this morning. Not to mention, that the US military has not publicly confirmed or reported the condition or description of the corpses of these men though we did see E.D. Hill rather casually, though upset, mention that the men had their hearts and genitals removed and stuffed in their mouths.

No one in their right mind would condone what has happened to these young men anymore than they would justify an army going in and opening fire on innocent civilians...

oh wait, I've seen RWNJ justifications of the later. :hmmm:

Point is, the depths of insanity, inhumanity, barbarianism, and horror have been unleashed during this war and it's an unfortunate reality that ONLY when something like this happens does the side supporting the war actually see this fact.

That is not to say the depths of insanity being perpetuated are equal on all sides...clearly it's not. Clearly one side is plunging further and faster and more frequently. But it is also clear that these two US soldiers are not the only victims of such rage, hatred, and barbarianism. Nope, other such reports of dismemberment and murder have been reported over the past nearly four years. But one side chooses to be outraged when it's OUR citizens and specifically our troops.

The sad fact is, this war is outrageous. All sides have resorted to the depths of their inhumanity, barbarianism, and horror. The true victims and innocents are not only those civilians who are caught in the middle but individuals like these two men who were brutalized for being on the 'wrong side.' Other such civilians and non-combatants have been murdered in such gruesome fashion for being on the 'wrong side' (not being Sunni, or Shiia, or whatever...) as well. And they were not part of the war, they were not there by choice, they were simply caught in the middle.

This sort of insanity will continue as long was we have folks like Fox News attempting to use these sort of tragedies as political hay while ignoring the everyday reality of the heinous deaths of hundreds on a weekly basis. Unfortunately for them, it appears that at least one of the two families was against the war and thus will not cooperate with their efforts to make these men poster children against John Murtha.

Anyone with a pulse should be as sickened by what happened to these brave soldiers as by what is happening in this war on a DAILY basis.

*See the Fox and Friends crew, specifically E.D. Hill, shrilly calling out John Murtha and the editorial papers this morning on their show. Or see the advertisements running early this morning (6:00 am) for Bill O'Reilly's show this evening asking 'Where is the outrage from the Left wing press/Liberals over the barbaric slaughter of our soldiers?' :shake:

chagrin

06-21-2006, 06:57 AM

What is sickening and disgraceful is Fox News*, and apparently others, trying to equate a perceived 'lack of outrage' with some how tacit support of and/or tacit approval of the actions perpetuated against these soldiers. Most of us are hearing the details of this horrific situation this morning.

No one in their right mind would condone what has happened to these young men anymore than they would justify an army going in and opening fire on innocent civilians...

oh wait, I've seen RWNJ justifications of the later. :hmmm:

Point is, the depths of insanity, inhumanity, barbarianism, and horror have been unleashed during this war and it's an unfortunate reality that ONLY when something like this happens does the side supporting the war actually see this fact.

That is not to say the depths of insanity being perpetuated are equal on all sides...clearly it's not. Clearly one side is plunging further and faster and more frequently. But it is also clear that these two US soldiers are not the only victims of such rage, hatred, and barbarianism. Nope, other such reports of dismemberment and murder have been reported over the past nearly four years. But one side chooses to be outraged when it's OUR citizens and specifically our troops.

The sad fact is, this war is outrageous. All sides have resorted to the depths of their inhumanity, barbarianism, and horror. The true victims and innocents are not only those civilians who are caught in the middle but individuals like these two men who were brutalized for being on the 'wrong side.' Other such civilians and non-combatants have been murdered in such gruesome fashion for being on the 'wrong side' (not being Sunni, or Shiia, or whatever...) as well. And they were not part of the war, they were not there by choice, they were simply caught in the middle.

This sort of insanity will continue as long was we have folks like Fox News attempting to use these sort of tragedies as political hay while ignoring the everyday reality of the heinous deaths of hundreds on a weekly basis. Unfortunately for them, it appears that at least one of the two families was against the war and thus will not cooperate with their efforts to make these men poster children against John Murtha.

Anyone with a pulse should be as sickened by what happened to these brave soldiers as by what is happening in this war on a DAILY basis.

*See the Fox and Friends crew, specifically E.D. Hill, shrilly calling out John Murtha and the editorial papers this morning on their show...Or see the advertisements running early this morning (6:00 am) for Bill O'Reilly's show this evening asking 'Where is the outrage from the Left/Liberals over the barbaric slaughter of our soldiers?' :shake:

Every time I read one of your posts lke this, I am more and more convinced of how far away from reality you truly are.

Let me just write this,

Nobody enjoys war, it's fair for you to not like war or want to go to war.

What you and your colleagues here do not get, and this is the biggest piece of evidence to show how wacky you really are, in spite of your "love" for "our" troops, is this:

We have lived in "peace" for years and years, people like yourself have become settled in your nice little white picket fence home and forgot how your freedom and peace was provided for you. You either were never educated about it, or simply don't know and/or don't give a shit, about the 100,000 + people who have died and killed 100,000 + other people in the process trying to kill them, who were trying to stop people from having such freedom.
Forget the oil and all the other shit that come on here for, it's clear that you all love to hear yourselves speak, and read your own words so you can say, "hey, look how good I am." Freedom and peace come with a price, this is about as basic as you can get. It's pretty simple shit to understand.
I am not repulsed by your existense, or that fact that you do not like war, I am repulsed by your existense for many other reasons - one of which being that when I first started lurking - before I joined up here, I glanced from time to time on DC and noticed that you were actually taking pleasure in our failures at the beginning of this war. Your attitude is in fact, sickening.
What you FAIL (and as far as I am concerned all of your "ilk" who share your ****ed up beliefs) to realize is that it's not just OUR rights and freedoms being fought for over there. How do you not see that? It's the mantra of YOUR SIDE OF THE AISLE.
I am indeed sickened by you and your friends here, I could care less if you fell the same or not.
You should feel ashamed for the way you talk about our soldiers and then try to lay claim to them as if they are your own.
You should be ****ing thankful that my grandfather, Uncle, cousins (on of which who was President Woodrow Wilson's interpreter at the Peace Treaty of Versailles and even going back to the Civil War (had many relatives on both sides that fought and died, including Colonels and enlisted men as well), and every other member here and person you know of with family and friends, for what they have provided you.

Your comments are more than offensive, they are pitiful, ignorant and a very sad display.

Thank you

jspchief

06-21-2006, 07:19 AM

I'll be honest, I don't care what lengths we would go to at this point. As much as I'd like to prattle on about the morality of it all, the truth is there's nothing moral about war in the first place.

It's like a street fight. When someone hits you, you hit them back so damn hard they they will never hit again. You hit so hard that anyone that sees you do it will know not to f*ck with you ever again.

I wouldn't care if they carpet bombed the entire f*cking village. I'm tired of the US wearing boxing gloves to fight where the opponent is bare-fisted and hitting below the belt.

Radar Chief

06-21-2006, 07:26 AM

This sort of insanity will continue as long was we have folks like Fox News attempting to use these sort of tragedies as political hay while ignoring the everyday reality of the heinous deaths of hundreds on a weekly basis.

You mean, like you just “used these sort of tragedies as political hay”?

What is sickening and disgraceful is Fox News*

oh wait, I've seen RWNJ justifications of the later. :hmmm:

But you’re, like, against that. Right? :shake:

Donger

06-21-2006, 07:31 AM

Two California soldiers shot to death in Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found. (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/21/soldiers.ambushed.ap/index.html)

jspchief

06-21-2006, 07:38 AM

Two California soldiers shot to death in Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found. (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/21/soldiers.ambushed.ap/index.html) That's a different pair of soldiers isn't it?

Radar Chief

06-21-2006, 07:40 AM

That's a different pair of soldiers isn't it?

Yes.

Donger

06-21-2006, 07:45 AM

That's a different pair of soldiers isn't it?

Yes, from 2004.

Iowanian

06-21-2006, 09:13 AM

Somehow, I didn't need to see it quoted, to know that Dense would somehow equate US actions with this crap.

JSP is exactly right........Our guys are supposed to be using sterile boxing gloves in an alley fight.

Carpet bomb the "triangle of Death".

I do suppose it looks like I have to break down to simple English for some.

In this post, In no way have I suggested the US USE TORTURE. I've said that I'm tired of US Intelligence officers being accused of turture in the same tone, for being female, wearing a skirt and faux menstruating.....being compared with what these barbarians pieces of shit are doing when given the chance.

I don't want to see REAL torture by US troops.....but I sure as hell don't mind if they make the payback a real bitch.

Logical

06-21-2006, 02:22 PM

...
I don't want to see REAL torture by US troops.....but I sure as hell don't mind if they make the payback a real bitch.

Then we agree

BIG_DADDY

06-21-2006, 02:40 PM

Then we agree

Traci is now in Baghdad for the rest of her time there. Torture should be mandatory for any soldier we train that turns on us. We have to do something to discourage that trend.

memyselfI

06-21-2006, 03:27 PM

Somehow, I didn't need to see it quoted, to know that Dense would somehow equate US actions with this crap.

Actually, I'm not equating at all. I'm pointing out that this entire war is barbaric, insane, inhumane, and shameful. At this point there is very little left to see that is unspeakable. Many of us have been so shocked and horrified by so many different things that an episode of this type seems like another in a long and mind numbing list of episodes.

When humanity/inhumanity has reached that point you know something is going terribly wrong and that something is more than a failed war plan.

Bwana

06-21-2006, 07:43 PM

Not a good day for the tree hugging libs. First it comes out that 500 WMDs were found in Iraq (OOPS) and now this.

alanm

06-21-2006, 07:44 PM

Your comments are more than offensive, they are pitiful, ignorant and a very sad display.

Actually Chargin, you were being way to civil towards her.
Denise would have made a great Nazi.

Logical

06-22-2006, 12:21 AM

Traci is now in Baghdad for the rest of her time there. Torture should be mandatory for any soldier we train that turns on us. We have to do something to discourage that trend.I hope she is safe Troy, I will be wishing here well. I can understand your personal stake in this making you feel the way you do.

Rausch

06-22-2006, 01:11 AM

Traci is now in Baghdad for the rest of her time there. Torture should be mandatory for any soldier we train that turns on us. We have to do something to discourage that trend.

Dedication to winning the war would be nice.

Unfortunately, we're less dedicated to killing the enemy than converting their neighbors to our way of thinking.

Doesn't work...

Duck Dog

06-22-2006, 07:34 AM

Actually, I'm not equating at all. I'm pointing out that this entire war is barbaric, insane, inhumane, and shameful. At this point there is very little left to see that is unspeakable. Many of us have been so shocked and horrified by so many different things that an episode of this type seems like another in a long and mind numbing list of episodes.

When humanity/inhumanity has reached that point you know something is going terribly wrong and that something is more than a failed war plan.

That's the point asshole. We don't hear a peep from you or any other leftwing moonbat when this happens to a US Soldier and it further solidifies our opinions of you. I hope your uterus falls on the floor and a big, fat greasy Islamic fundamentalist steps on it.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 09:11 AM

I think you misread my intent reaper.

I'm saying that the slightest of bullshit is considered "torture" when its Americans involved on the other end....

I don't want to see torture per se, but I do wish they Army would Kick the Cameras out of Iraq for a month and Do what really needs done.

Brutality is the only thing terrorists understand. I'm positive the 101 is going to be angry...

I wish they'd start leaving a piece of bacon in the mouth of every terrorist killed, and feed the true assholes to some Pigs on Al Jazeera.

That would end the "martyr" bullshit faster than anything else I can think of at this time.

I should just avoid this shit....Tomorrow, when the sympathizers show up here, I'll just get too pissed.

Shining light on a hill eh?

I like that we don't do those things.

It is what makes the US...

Well...

The US.

Iowanian

06-22-2006, 09:14 AM

Thats right Zach....Just have the Soliders Hug them to death. Kill em with Kindness eh.

banyon

06-22-2006, 09:15 AM

That's the point asshole. We don't hear a peep from you or any other leftwing moonbat when this happens to a US Soldier and it further solidifies our opinions of you. I hope your uterus falls on the floor and a big, fat greasy Islamic fundamentalist steps on it.

I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't participate in this thread before this post because it was clearly a "gotcha" thread targeted at one poster Denise . Personally, It saddens me deeply every time I watch the "In Memoriam" that they do on ABC This Week that lists the soldiers killed that week. This incident was clearly even more gruesome and deplorable than usual.

jiveturkey

06-22-2006, 09:57 AM

There probably wasn't any mention of it because we've been told not to focus on the negatives. o:-)

Most of us have been out looking for information on schools being built.

We also don't feel that these soldiers deaths should be used to advance any type of agenda. We should mourn their deaths and honor the sacrifice that they made.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 09:59 AM

Thats right Zach....Just have the Soliders Hug them to death. Kill em with Kindness eh.
Sorry you are so interested in blurring the line between us and them.

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 10:04 AM

Sorry you are so interested in blurring the line between us and them.

Yep, we definitely want to retain the right to consider our barbarism better than theirs. :thumb:

stevieray

06-22-2006, 10:06 AM

Yep, we definitely want to retain the right to consider our barbarism better than theirs. :thumb:

yup, barbarism definitely paid for our freedom.

jspchief

06-22-2006, 10:10 AM

Sorry you are so interested in blurring the line between us and them.Sorry you are incapable of understanding that extreme times require extreme measures.

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 10:17 AM

Sorry you are incapable of understanding that extreme times require extreme measures.

And such extremes are the extact time that people of integrity and honor MUST resist the temptation to become that which they are trying to defeat.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 10:18 AM

Sorry you are incapable of understanding that extreme times require extreme measures.
Shining light on a hill?

Look at all these little kids acting like they are conservitives wanting to cut other people's heads cut off.

Who should be hanging the mission accomplished banner's if we degrade high standards our soldiers are put up to.

Thank god they act above the place some want them to be here.

Radar Chief

06-22-2006, 10:19 AM

And such extremes are the extact time that people of integrity and honor resist the temptation to become what they are trying to defeat.

And we’ll all keep that in mind the first time a non-Christian “infidel” is beheaded by US forces.

jspchief

06-22-2006, 10:26 AM

And such extremes are the extact time that people of integrity and honor MUST resist the temptation to become that which they are trying to defeat.So how many detainess have we chopped up or beheaded?

Like Iowanian said. Our soldiers are being lumped in to the same group as these sickos for doing things that aren't remotely comparable.

It's not black and white. There's a pretty large expanse of grey area before we "become that which we are trying to defeat".

War is barbaric. Period. I can live with what we did at Abu Ghraib if it helps prevent even one IED or beheading. The problem is, people have an unrealistic ideal of how a war should be fought, especially considering this particular enemy.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 10:28 AM

There probably wasn't any mention of it because we've been told not to focus on the negatives. o:-)

Most of us have been out looking for information on schools being built.

We also don't feel that these soldiers deaths should be used to advance any type of agenda. We should mourn their deaths and honor the sacrifice that they made.

Irony.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 10:30 AM

So how many detainess have we chopped up or beheaded?

Like Iowanian said. Our soldiers are being lumped in to the same group as these sickos for doing things that aren't remotely comparable.

It's not black and white. There's a pretty large expanse of grey area before we "become that which we are trying to defeat".

This hasn't happened. And thank god for our military and soldiers and the high standard they are upheld to.

Besides...it would be a tactic that wouldn't work. We are talking about brutally killing a few people and doing the recruiting for terrorists in the process. I am not sure how some people think they would actually shy away from those kinds of tactics.

If you are going to throw away what you stand for at least find something effective to fill it with.

stevieray

06-22-2006, 10:33 AM

This hasn't happened. And thank god for our military and soldiers and the high standard they are upheld to.

Besides...it would be a tactic that wouldn't work. We are talking about brutally killing a few people and doing the recruiting for terrorists in the process. I am not sure how some people think they would actually shy away from those kinds of tactics.

If you are going to throw away what you stand for at least find something effective to fill it with.

So IYO, you really think that radical muslims aren't capable of wishing us dead on their own?

jspchief

06-22-2006, 10:34 AM

Who has suggested that we adopt their tactics?

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 10:36 AM

So how many detainess have we chopped up or beheaded?

Like Iowanian said. Our soldiers are being lumped in to the same group as these sickos for doing things that aren't remotely comparable.

It's not black and white. There's a pretty large expanse of grey area before we "become that which we are trying to defeat".

War is barbaric. Period. I can live with what we did at Abu Ghraib if it helps prevent even one IED or beheading. The problem is, people have an unrealistic ideal of how a war should be fought, especially considering this particular enemy.

So far we have not beheaded anyone...which is the good news. The bad news is we've also done some horrific things which amounted to dead people.

Granted, one is a more horrific form of death and one side is using that fact to terrorize and horrify the other. They are also using it as an INVITATION to drop our standards and engage in theirs.

This is not equating the two sides. This is recognizing that both sides are killing by choice and by design. One side is clearly using more outrageous and horrific means to accomplish their goal and their design is to try to force the other to adopt their means as a way of muddying the waters between the two sides.

AQ would love nothing more than for the people caught helplessly in the middle to see both sides and see little distinction between the two. The MINUTE we succumb to this invitation/temptation is the minute AQ wins...

ftr, this was my same response on 9/12/01.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 10:36 AM

So IYO, you really think that radical muslims aren't capable of wishing us dead on their own?
No they are, but I think an approach of that nature would make recruiting much much easier on their end.

Logical

06-22-2006, 10:36 AM

This hasn't happened. And thank god for our military and soldiers and the high standard they are upheld to.

Besides...it would be a tactic that wouldn't work. We are talking about brutally killing a few people and doing the recruiting for terrorists in the process. I am not sure how some people think they would actually shy away from those kinds of tactics.

If you are going to throw away what you stand for at least find something effective to fill it with.

Well stated.:clap:

chagrin

06-22-2006, 10:37 AM

Who has suggested that we adopt their tactics?

I hope you're not really expecting an aswer here, because you won't get one; all you will see is deflection and redirect to another person

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 10:38 AM

Who has suggested that we adopt their tactics?

Guess you haven't visited FreeRepublic.com lately. :hmmm:

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 10:39 AM

Who has suggested that we adopt their tactics?
Heh, you are going to play the obtuse thinking card?

You read the post Iowanian post I replied to? There is more where that came from.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 10:41 AM

Are we trying to act like there isn't a fight fire with fire. Do to them what they to do us group around here?

stevieray

06-22-2006, 10:43 AM

No they are, but I think an approach of that nature would make recruiting much much easier on their end.

I don't think we have anything to do with the difficulty of their "choice".

They want us dead regardless.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 10:44 AM

So far we have not beheaded anyone...which is the good news. The bad news is we've also done some horrific things which amounted to dead people.

It's a war. Horrific things happen during all wars. It sure would be nice if leaders could sit down at a table and bang out an agreement but that's sometimes impossible when you're talking about the egos of human beings.

When one side starts to capture soldiers specifically so they can videotape their brutal torture and murder it goes way, way beyond horrific.

Don't give me any of your "but, but" rationalization. The "horrific" things "our" side has done isn't even on the same planet in terms of comparison.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 10:47 AM

Are we trying to act like there isn't a fight fire with fire. Do to them what they to do us group around here?

I think there's a difference.

Those who want to "fight fire with fire" want to see the idiots who actually tortured our soldiers brought to justice in a similar manner. Those individuals aren't advocating rounding up random insurgents and torturing them in order to drop videos on the internet as a message.

jspchief

06-22-2006, 10:56 AM

Are we trying to act like there isn't a fight fire with fire. Do to them what they to do us group around here?I can't speak for anyone else, but where I stand on the issue is that I feel political correctness is keeping our troops from doing some things that would probably be effective. At the same time, I don't expect us to go out and start beheading prisoners.

Like I said in an earlier post, there's a wide grey area between knight in shining honor, and lopping heads off.

We've already chosen to settle the dispute by killing humans. It's a little late to try and pull in the reigns because of the barbarism of it all.

|Zach|

06-22-2006, 10:58 AM

I don't think we have anything to do with the difficulty of their "choice".

They want us dead regardless.
I disagree. My opinion of course. There is obviously no way to emprically prove one way or the other.

There is a large group of young Iraqi's that are...like all people...esp young people very impacted by the media. The more we give them the more they use.

jspchief

06-22-2006, 10:59 AM

Guess you haven't visited FreeRepublic.com lately. :hmmm:This thread isn't on freerepublic.com, so I could give two shits what they are saying over there.

You want to take up that issue with them, go there to do it.

Logical

06-22-2006, 11:01 AM

....

AQ would love nothing more than for the people caught helplessly in the middle to see both sides and see little distinction between the two. The MINUTE we succumb to this invitation/temptation is the minute AQ wins...

....I agree with this last statement.

stevieray

06-22-2006, 11:03 AM

The more we give them the more they use.

so, could the same be true for those who are trying to rebuild their country?

Logical

06-22-2006, 11:04 AM

I think there's a difference.

Those who want to "fight fire with fire" want to see the idiots who actually tortured our soldiers brought to justice in a similar manner. Those individuals aren't advocating rounding up random insurgents and torturing them in order to drop videos on the internet as a message.I agree with you in one sense, but on the other hand I think we need to punish those insurgents without going beyond the minimum force needed to kill them. Cruelty only begets more cruelty.

Eleazar

06-22-2006, 11:09 AM

Those valiant freedom fighters.. god bless them for their love of their country... right memymujahideen?

jspchief

06-22-2006, 11:11 AM

I agree with you in one sense, but on the other hand I think we need to punish those insurgents without going beyond the minimum force needed to kill them. Cruelty only begets more cruelty.Statements like that are exactly what I'm referring to when I say PC is probably keeping our troops from doing their job most effectively.

This is not intended as a slam Vlad, but I find the phrase "without going beyond the minimum force needed to kill them" laughable to the point of absurdity.

Iowanian

06-22-2006, 11:12 AM

Sorry you are so interested in blurring the line between us and them.

Sorry you're being too much of an asswipe to know the difference between that and what I actually said.

Logical

06-22-2006, 11:13 AM

So IYO, you really think that radical muslims aren't capable of wishing us dead on their own?There are people of all races, nationalities, and faiths capable of wishing us dead. Should we go out and kill them all?

Logical

06-22-2006, 11:14 AM

Statements like that are exactly what I'm referring to when I say PC is probably keeping our troops from doing their job most effectively.

This is not intended as a slam Vlad, but I find the phrase "without going beyond the minimum force needed to kill them" laughable to the point of absurdity.
Bombing, RPGs, bullets, all minimum force levels. Rounding them up into groups and torturing then killing them not minimum force levels.

stevieray

06-22-2006, 11:15 AM

There are people of all races, nationalities, and faiths capable of wishing us dead. Should we go out and kill them all?

you are changing the subject.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 11:17 AM

We've already chosen to settle the dispute by killing humans. It's a little late to try and pull in the reigns because of the barbarism of it all.

I can't agree more with this. I can't even elaborate upon what you've written.

Iowanian

06-22-2006, 11:20 AM

I agree with this last statement.

Its great that dense has been able to help you conquer that pesky gag reflex logical.

Eleazar

06-22-2006, 11:20 AM

"without going beyond the minimum force needed to kill them"

What the hell? What does it matter if you go above the minimum required force to kill them? They're effing dead! They stopped caring about extra force when that dead thing started.

jspchief

06-22-2006, 11:24 AM

What the hell? What does it matter if you go above the minimum required force to kill them? They're effing dead! They stopped caring about extra force when that dead thing started.That's kind of my thinking as well.

I think maybe what Vlad was trying to say was something else. But I do think there are people out there with that mindset, and I think it hampers our military.

FAX

06-22-2006, 11:24 AM

... They stopped caring about extra force when that dead thing started.

ROFL ROFL

FAX

Iowanian

06-22-2006, 11:25 AM

How many Soldiers and Marines who have returned from there have you talked to on the subject?

I know marines from both Faluja pushes, Al Anbar, Tikrit and soldiers who have been in the worst ends of Bagdad.

Almost to the letter, regardless of their political opinions, they've said that any act of "kindness" and "mercy" by our troops, is seen by these twisted people as Weakness.

US Attrocities? Sure, things happen in war that noone likes to have happen...errant bombs, insurgents engaging in firefights while hiding behind women and children, or keeping them with their weapons caches and at meetings, so that if they are killed, its political hay for them.

I don't see US Troops torturing, sawing off the heads of POWs, using Suicide bombs randomly in streets, markets and Mosques, placing IEDs and car bombs targeting civilians......

There is Zero comparison between US troops and these scumbags.

I disagree. My opinion of course. There is obviously no way to emprically prove one way or the other.

There is a large group of young Iraqi's that are...like all people...esp young people very impacted by the media. The more we give them the more they use.

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 11:28 AM

There is Zero comparison between US troops and these scumbags.

EXACTLY, and most of us want it to STAY THAT WAY!!!!!!!

Phobia

06-22-2006, 11:31 AM

EXACTLY, and most of us want it to STAY THAT WAY!!!!!!!

I am tempted to question your use of "us" in that post.

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 11:51 AM

I am tempted to question your use of "us" in that post.

Question, if you want. I've posted from the beginning that the US had more to lose than gain by having a perceived extreme response and that the standards by which we would be judged would different because of who we are.

go bo

06-22-2006, 11:52 AM

You mean, like you just “used these sort of tragedies as political hay”?
* * * it certainly does look that way...

even for duhneese this is way way crazy to compare the few isolated incidents of misconduct on the part of our troops with the terror killings and beheadings that the terrorist do on a daily basis...

or to compare our "torture", even murder (if proven), to what these 2 soldiers went through, being tortured, mudered and then having their bodies desecrated like that...

way way out there... :huh: :huh: :huh:

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 12:00 PM

it certainly does look that way...

even for duhneese this is way way crazy to compare the few isolated incidents of misconduct on the part of our troops with the terror killings and beheadings that the terrorist do on a daily basis...

or to compare our "torture", even murder (if proven), to what these 2 soldiers went through, being tortured, mudered and then having their bodies desecrated like that...

way way out there... :huh: :huh: :huh:

You missed my point.

Killing is killing. There is a dead person in the end. My point was the entire war has been horrific not just this incident of barbarity perpetrated against these soldiers. My point was this particular crime has been perpetrated against Average Ali (because he's on the wrong side) over the past few years with little or no notice of those currently voicing outrage BECAUSE it was our soldiers.

The fact that unspeakable horror was perpetuated against the corpses of our soldiers is not lost and should not be. But we must resist the temptation to use that abuse of their bodies as a means to ratchet up our response and our methods of killing them lest we muddy the waters and become more like them.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 12:00 PM

I can personally attest that US soldiers desecrate bodies. While I didn't witness it happening, I did see the results of it in '91. It made me sick.

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 12:02 PM

I can personally attest that US soldiers desecrate bodies. While I didn't witness it happening, I did see the results of it in '91. It made me sick.

There you go. From an avowed and avid supporter of the US troops. To pretend it doesn't happen IN ALL WARS BY ALL SIDES is ridiculous.

stevieray

06-22-2006, 12:03 PM

But we must resist the temptation to use that abuse of their bodies as a means to ratchet up our response and our methods of killing them.

but yet you defend their right to be tempted into such actions.

stevieray

06-22-2006, 12:05 PM

There you go. From an avowed and avid supporter of the US troops. To pretend it doesn't happen IN ALL WARS BY ALL SIDES is ridiculous.

uh, what part of combat doesn't desecrate bodies?

Phobia

06-22-2006, 12:07 PM

There you go. From an avowed and avid supporter of the US troops. To pretend it doesn't happen IN ALL WARS BY ALL SIDES is ridiculous.

While I still find it disgusting and utterly reprehensible, there's a huge difference between what I witnessed and what is described in this report. I'm not at all condoning what some idiot kids did, but those iraqis had been dead for 3 or 4 days when somebody put more bullets into them.

Logical

06-22-2006, 12:08 PM

uh, what part of combat doesn't desecrate bodies?Got to agree with Stevie on this one.

Of course there are degrees of desecration.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 12:11 PM

I misspoke in an earlier post. I specified "US soldiers" when I really have no idea who did the act(s). There were thousands of non-American troops in that theater of operations. It could have very well been done by somebody else in the Coalition or even by a Kuwaiti as this did take place in Kuwait.

patteeu

06-22-2006, 01:28 PM

Sorry you are so interested in blurring the line between us and them.

Does it bother you when people try to blur the lines between us and them by calling what happens in our detention camps torture or when people talk about how the terrorist insurgents are just fighting fire with fire?

patteeu

06-22-2006, 01:35 PM

The MINUTE we succumb to this invitation/temptation is the minute AQ wins...

I thought AQ won the minute GW decided to invest in missile defense at the expense of discarding the foolproof Clinton plan to strangle terrorism in it's crib. Or when GW decided to take forget about Osama and invade Iraq. :shrug:

Duck Dog

06-22-2006, 01:40 PM

The important thing we remember is our troops fight by the rules. The assholes they are fighting are not fighting by the rules. Other assholes, like Duhneez think our troops are criminals thus they can not differentiate between good and evil.

patteeu

06-22-2006, 01:41 PM

EXACTLY, and most of us want it to STAY THAT WAY!!!!!!!

Your posting history on this subject doesn't make that very clear.

HC_Chief

06-22-2006, 01:42 PM

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/brave-men-and-demons.htm

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 04:23 PM

While I still find it disgusting and utterly reprehensible, there's a huge difference between what I witnessed and what is described in this report. I'm not at all condoning what some idiot kids did, but those iraqis had been dead for 3 or 4 days when somebody put more bullets into them.

So our desecration and barbarity was better than theirs?

Sorry, I'm not buying into the degrees of 'acceptable' or 'better' when it comes to barbarity or desecration. The place where the decision is made to murder someone and then desecrate their body is the same place.

It should never be acceptable to murder (I'm not talking about combat but murder) and/or to then desecrate no matter who is doing the deeds.

Logical

06-22-2006, 04:31 PM

Does it bother you when people try to blur the lines between us and them by calling what happens in our detention camps torture or when people talk about how the terrorist insurgents are just fighting fire with fire?

I think you would have to be more specific to answer this question. Vaguely worded like it is we do not know what we are comparing.

Logical

06-22-2006, 04:32 PM

So our desecration and barbarity was better than theirs?

Sorry, I'm not buying into the degrees of 'acceptable' or 'better' when it comes to barbarity or desecration. The place where the decision is made to murder someone and then desecrate their body is the same place.

It should never be acceptable to murder (I'm not talking about combat but murder) and/or to then desecrate no matter who is doing the deeds.

Maybe I missed it, but where is it documented our troops murdered someone?

KC Dan

06-22-2006, 04:34 PM

It should never be acceptable to murder (I'm not talking about combat but murder) and/or to then desecrate no matter who is doing the deeds.
This is exactly what Phob is saying. The "idiot" kids he talked about found the dead bodies that were killed in combat not murdered like our boys. Big difference in this case. The desecration after death whether murdered or KIA is never acceptable. Unfortunately for our boys they were most likely desecrated while being murdered and after. No excuses for that and please don't try to politically explain their acts away as if we do the same thing.

Phobia

06-22-2006, 05:13 PM

So our desecration and barbarity was better than theirs?

Sorry, I'm not buying into the degrees of 'acceptable' or 'better' when it comes to barbarity or desecration. The place where the decision is made to murder someone and then desecrate their body is the same place.

It should never be acceptable to murder (I'm not talking about combat but murder) and/or to then desecrate no matter who is doing the deeds.

The point is they were dead, rotting corpses stinking out in the middle of the desert. The only crime these (presumably) kids committed was desecration of a body (which is horrifying). The animals who killed our boys first:
1. Tortured them.
2. Murdered them.
3. Desecrated their bodies.
4. Boobie trapped them in an effort to kill even more.

If you can't buy one is better or preferable to another then I officially declare you brain dead. Time of death..... 6:13 PM

Sorry, I'm not buying into the degrees of 'acceptable' or 'better' when it comes to barbarity or desecration. The place where the decision is made to murder someone and then desecrate their body is the same place.

It should never be acceptable to murder (I'm not talking about combat but murder) and/or to then desecrate no matter who is doing the deeds.

I don't need your forgiveness
I don't need your hate
I don't need your acceptance
So what should I do

I'll be sorry so you've said
I'm not sorry
Bang You're Dead

Die mother ****er die mother ****er die

Logical

06-22-2006, 05:35 PM

I don't need your forgiveness
I don't need your hate
I don't need your acceptance
So what should I do

I'll be sorry so you've said
I'm not sorry
Bang You're Dead

Die mother ****er die mother ****er dieSo where is that from Troy?

Phobia

06-22-2006, 05:46 PM

That's a song by a band called "Dope".

BIG_DADDY

06-22-2006, 05:59 PM

So where is that from Troy?

Didn't you see the montage Hog Farmer posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-IRB-386w&search=iraq%20war

I gotta pick up that CD. I hope there is more than one good song on it.

BIG_DADDY

06-22-2006, 06:09 PM

Jim,

These are all the lyrics

"Die MF Die"

I don't need your forgiveness
I don't need your hate
I don't need your acceptance
So what should I do
I don't need your resistance
I don't need your prayers
I don't need your religion
I don't need a thing from you

I don't do what I've been told
Your so lame why don't you

Just go
Die mother ****er die mother ****er die

I don't need your prison
I don't need your pain
I don't need your decision
So what should I do
I don't need your approval
I don't need your hope
I don't need your lectures
I don't need a thing from you

I'll be sorry when I'm old
You're so full of shit man

Just go
Die mother ****er die mother ****er die

Boom

I don't need your forgiveness
I don't need your hate
I don't need your acceptance
So what should I do

I'll be sorry so you've said
I'm not sorry
Bang You're Dead

Die mother ****er die mother ****er die

Die

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 07:13 PM

Maybe I missed it, but where is it documented our troops murdered someone?

Well, we don't have anything 'documented' as of yet as the accused are undergoing trials. But we do have the military bringing charges and I highly doubt in this political climate they'd be doing it unless they had good reason.

Here are two different incidents reported on just within the past week. They are not including the massacre allegations in Haditha.

This is exactly what Phob is saying. The "idiot" kids he talked about found the dead bodies that were killed in combat not murdered like our boys. Big difference in this case. The desecration after death whether murdered or KIA is never acceptable. Unfortunately for our boys they were most likely desecrated while being murdered and after. No excuses for that and please don't try to politically explain their acts away as if we do the same thing.

I'm not trying to politically explain a damn thing. I am saying there are not degrees of acceptable desecration or murder. Apparently to some here there is if perpetuated by our side. :rolleyes:

memyselfI

06-22-2006, 07:17 PM

The point is they were dead, rotting corpses stinking out in the middle of the desert. The only crime these (presumably) kids committed was desecration of a body (which is horrifying). The animals who killed our boys first:
1. Tortured them.
2. Murdered them.
3. Desecrated their bodies.
4. Boobie trapped them in an effort to kill even more.

If you can't buy one is better or preferable to another then I officially declare you brain dead. Time of death..... 6:13 PM

I don't find either better or preferable. When you start making moral excuses and justifications for ONE you end up diminishing the other by means of slippery slope.

dirk digler

06-22-2006, 07:52 PM

I am not at all comparing our troops to terrorists but during WWII and Vietnam it was very customary by US troops to cut off ears and pry out gold teeth as souvenirs of the men they killed. The Japs used to capture our GI's and cut their balls off and stuff them in their mouth. This isn't something new.

War is hell and shit happens.

If it was up to me I would find those ****ers that did this to our troops, attach them to a vehicle and drag their bodies through the street, hang them in the middle of the town and let them swing for a few days. If anyone tried to cut them down I would put a hole in them.

Logical

06-22-2006, 08:11 PM

Well, we don't have anything 'documented' as of yet as the accused are undergoing trials. But we do have the military bringing charges and I highly doubt in this political climate they'd be doing it unless they had good reason.

Here are two different incidents reported on just within the past week. They are not including the massacre allegations in Haditha.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2094311

"A noncommissioned officer and two soldiers each have been charged with violating several articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice including murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, communicating a threat, and obstructing justice," an announcement said.
.... (http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/storage/paper410/news/2006/06/22/WorldNation/Military.Charges.Marines.In.Iraqis.Death-2117822.shtml?norewrite200606222112&sourcedomain=www.dailytexanonline.com)

Well we certainly have a case of charges, but I must agree with others that to brand the actions of a few across the wide spread cross section that is the military is hardly a reasonable position. I also wonder if you share the same definition of desecration. Though I do not view it on a religious basis, to me desecration would indicate actions far beyond the pale were committed. ie the terrorist torturing and beheading someone clearly crosses the line of military action into desecration.

Logical

06-22-2006, 08:13 PM

Didn't you see the montage Hog Farmer posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-IRB-386w&search=iraq%20war

I gotta pick up that CD. I hope there is more than one good song on it.

No I missed it, anyone know who Hog Farmer used to be, I assume it is someone who has changed identities.

btw - the reason i didn't post anythign about this is because i learned long ago that republicans have the sole rights to anything about american soldiers.

if i would of posted it, the first thing out of someone's mouth would of been about how i must "enjoy the deaths of american soldiers" and i was just posting it out of enjoyment.

has already happen once ... so no lame denial is needed.

so i don't make any comments about american soldiers anymore.

Logical

06-22-2006, 08:24 PM

I'm not trying to politically explain a damn thing. I am saying there are not degrees of acceptable desecration or murder. Apparently to some here there is if perpetuated by our side. :rolleyes:My thoughts are that murder and desecration are not the same thing and that you are attempting to classify them as the same. Am I misunderstanding you?

Phobia

06-22-2006, 08:58 PM

I don't find either better or preferable. When you start making moral excuses and justifications for ONE you end up diminishing the other by means of slippery slope.
Oh - okay. I vastly prefer desecration, fwiw. I have a strong dislike of torture and murder.

stevieray

06-22-2006, 08:58 PM

When you start making moral excuses and justifications for ONE you end up diminishing the other by means of slippery slope.

Like you did when you validated the insurgents right to kill Americans?

The irony is deafening.

Logical

06-22-2006, 09:07 PM

Like you did when you validated the insurgents right to kill Americans?

The irony is deafening.I sure would like to see the exact quote where she said this, I have read that entire thread I am pretty sure I never recall her using those exact words.

Loki

06-23-2006, 12:45 AM

jihadi's don't understand airborne resolve... yet.
not to worry. AQ will learn who they f*cked with.

101 will get their payback.

hooah?

memyselfI

06-23-2006, 05:26 AM

My thoughts are that murder and desecration are not the same thing and that you are attempting to classify them as the same. Am I misunderstanding you?

Well in the larger context WAR ITSELF IS DESECRATION which is my entire point.

I'm speaking specifically to the outrage felt by some over the murder and multilation of the corpses being somehow more tragic, horrific, and barbaric than war itself. It's not. And for people to be outraged over the deaths of these two individuals while nodding approval of the entire war is really disingenuous.

Certainly these individuals suffered dearly before they died and that fact should not be lost. But as I said before others in Iraq (I'm speaking namely of civilians) have suffered this same crime (NOT AT THE HANDS OF THE US SOLDIERS-that is not my point) over the past four years. This crime has been perpetuated against individuals for cooperating with the 'other side' and not much disgust was felt when it was Iraqi on Iraqi. It's happened many times and these two soldiers were not the first nor will be the last to experience such horror.

As far as your assertion that I'm branding the actions of a few to be representative of all, I am not doing that at all. My larger point is to demonstrate that the war itself is barbaric, horrific, and tragic. To use the deaths of these soldiers to become more barbaric in retribution will accomplish nothing. And the unfortunate reality of the resolved numbness in the face of the news of the deaths of these two clearly illustrates how desensitized many in this country have become to the war in it's entirety.

Duck Dog

06-23-2006, 07:41 AM

Didn't you see the montage Hog Farmer posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-IRB-386w&search=iraq%20war

I gotta pick up that CD. I hope there is more than one good song on it.

There are some really kick ass vids there put to music. My favorite is set to the song 'Bodies' from Drowning Pool.

Cool, thanks for sharing. :thumb:

CHIEF4EVER

06-23-2006, 09:56 PM

Don't worry, the 5 oh deuce WILL get their payback. I know, it's my old unit......

Logical

06-23-2006, 10:06 PM

Well in the larger context WAR ITSELF IS DESECRATION which is my entire point.

I'm speaking specifically to the outrage felt by some over the murder and multilation of the corpses being somehow more tragic, horrific, and barbaric than war itself. It's not. And for people to be outraged over the deaths of these two individuals while nodding approval of the entire war is really disingenuous.

Certainly these individuals suffered dearly before they died and that fact should not be lost. But as I said before others in Iraq (I'm speaking namely of civilians) have suffered this same crime (NOT AT THE HANDS OF THE US SOLDIERS-that is not my point) over the past four years. This crime has been perpetuated against individuals for cooperating with the 'other side' and not much disgust was felt when it was Iraqi on Iraqi. It's happened many times and these two soldiers were not the first nor will be the last to experience such horror.

As far as your assertion that I'm branding the actions of a few to be representative of all, I am not doing that at all. My larger point is to demonstrate that the war itself is barbaric, horrific, and tragic. To use the deaths of these soldiers to become more barbaric in retribution will accomplish nothing. And the unfortunate reality of the resolved numbness in the face of the news of the deaths of these two clearly illustrates how desensitized many in this country have become to the war in it's entirety.

War is horrible but something that on occasion is required. I cannot as such classify war conducted within the normal paramaters as desecration. We are just going to disagree.