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Did they put something in the water? I had a good time over the holidays. But also discovered three marriages teetering on collapse. Children in each one. What a disaster.

Thoughts?

Perhaps a disaster, perhaps not. I only wished my parents had divorced when i was a kid as opposed to staying married 20 years in a horrible marriage that left my mom, sister and me scarred for life. Verbal abuse, physical abuse, emotional turmoil, mistresses to numerous to count and several half siblings. Great childhood huh?

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

I don't get how that happens so much. I know people fall in and out of love. But will the next lover, spouse, be all that different? I worry about such things. There were not all that many divorces in my suburb when I was growing up. Seemed like a fair amount of successful marriages. Well, I guess thats just through the picture window. We don't really know.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

When I was with my last partner I couldnt imagine life with out him. Funny how 10 years later I feel the same about my current partner. I wonder what I will be feeling ten years from now (god willing).

One of our best friends told us last week she is thinking of divorcing her husband of 30 years. She finally admitted to us that he has been physically abusive their entire marriage. He had a traumatic brain injury 20 years ago and will have to go into a nursing home if she follows through. Her oldest son is a heroin addict and can't hold a job and her younger son is depressed, 380 pounds, agoraphobic and has never worked. She has been caring for all of them, the sons are well into adulthood, and she has decided she wants her life back.

Last year another two friends who have a child divorced. She told me recently that financially it is so difficult that she should have never left the marriage. Meanwhile he has shacked up with his best friend's wife.

My younger brother also divorced last year.

On the other hand my other siblings are all in what appear to be successfull long-term marriages/relationships. My older brother and his partner got together in 1974 I think.

Sometimes a divorce is a good thing.My partner divorced his alcoholic wife so he and I could raise the kids.They were never happy and the kids deserved two loving parents.Sixteen years later we all are happy productive people.With that said, last week my partner asked me to fly to DC with him and get married in the spring.After 16 years of living in sin, I hope it is still fun when it is legal...

The couples late 30's. First marriages. The kids young. Two of the guys told me they really want to fuck other women. One said he was jealous of his gay friends cause it seemed to him we can have open relationships and he can't.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

With that said, last week my partner asked me to fly to DC with him and get married in the spring.After 16 years of living in sin, I hope it is still fun when it is legal...

Hoover and Dr T

Congratulations! I thought you had to be residents of D.C. to get married there but I haven't really looked into it.

My partner and I were having lunch recently and something came on the television about gay marriage. He said "We're not getting married until it is legal and they get everything worked out." I was pretty stunned because in 18 years we have never talked about marriage. I'm not sure I want to be married but since it isn't possible anyway I just agreed that we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

The couples late 30's. First marriages. The kids young. Two of the guys told me they really want to fuck other women. One said he was jealous of his gay friends cause it seemed to him we can have open relationships and he can't.

Are open marriages still around or did they die along with key parties and disco?

Wait a minute, you live in Europe. Isn't that supposed to be the land of mistresses kept in secret love nests where the wife turns a blind eye... or am I a victim of stereotypes and bad cinema?

I think a lot of people are far too conditioned for instant gratification and when they get married, they find out that relationships are damn hard work. They want everything now, so let's get married and have kids in the first month or whatever. They do not give the relationship any time to really build a foundation and when the kids come, they are no longer a couple, but a family and everything changes. They never develop the skills to be a good partner and when the going gets rough, far too many head for the hills.

Society certainly does not help, now that you have baby-momma's and baby-daddy's. I am absolutely dumbfounded by the number of women who have multiple children, by multiple fathers, with no marriage and often no commitment at all, from the fathers. It just feeds this endless cycle of poverty and inequality and nobody seems to care. So in an age, where a two year old phone is considered a "relic", does it really surprise anyone that marriage is now viewed as "disposable"? Forget the spoken commitment to each other, when it's over, it's over and I'm outta here. Saddest of all, is what do we expect our children to learn from such behavior.

Open marriages dont really seem to be that easily discussed among friends. We know the randy married guys but everything seems to be don't ask, don't tell. To be gender neutral, however, it seems that the wife in one of these couples is the one who wants to stray. And, of course, to make it messy, she wants to stray with the husband from one of the other couples!At least money is not an issue for two of these couples, I mean they don't face any sort of material privation if they divorce. I dunno. Its an interesting enough topic though, isn't it?

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I believe economic stress has much to do with divorce . The poor and the working poor or what used to be called middle class has so many things stacked against them for the very start .

If you are a young adult saddled with student loans and are trying to start a family just keeping your head above water is more than some can do . How can a family believe in family when you cant even afford to take care of one even if you are working 60 hours a week .

I could see tough finances contributing to stress in a marriage but it doesnt add up that the poor would divorce because of it - that would only seem to make it worse. Two incomes are better than one after all.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I could see tough finances contributing to stress in a marriage but it doesnt add up that the poor would divorce because of it - that would only seem to make it worse. Two incomes are better than one after all.

That is not the logic, Mecch. Financial difficulties create more stress and kill any remnants of happiness that there may be in the relationship. The whole "through the good times and the bad times" (or whatever that vow may be) doesn't seem to be followed much these days. People just don't have much patience, resilience, or sense of loyalty these days. It goes back to what Joe said; people jump/rushinto marriages (in many cases without being truly prepared or committed).

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"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Divorce being bad for kids or a sign that we are morally bankrupt today, I think, is an exaggeration. Kids are pretty reliant. Maybe people today just don't tolerate shit (well being unhappy) anymore. Do people jump into marriage nowadays? Seems like on average, people are waiting until they are much older to get married.

Surely the kids would be better off with happy but divorced parents, if the finances arent so awful that is. But I guess what shocked me is that a couple loves each other enough to make children and yet not maintain the spark of love to keep the couple going.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

A report came out recently which seems to indicate that a marriage gap is developing between couples who have a college degree or higher and middle class Americans. It appears that middle-class Americans are not getting married as often and are having more children out of wedlock.

(CNN) -- Over the past 40 years, marriage has foundered among the poor, with the nation's attention especially focused on the decline of marriage in poor black communities. But an important new report finds that "the retreat from marriage has now clearly moved into the precincts of [both] black and white Middle America."The report, "When Marriage Disappears: The Retreat from Marriage in Middle America," was released by the National Marriage Project, a nonpartisan initiative at the University of Virginia directed by family scholar W. Bradford Wilcox.

Wilcox's study finds that over the last 30 years, among what the report calls "Middle Americans" (the 58% of moderately educated Americans who have a high school degree), the proportion of children born outside of marriage skyrocketed from 13% to 44% while the portion of adults in an intact first marriage dropped from 73% to 45%.Meanwhile, among financially well-off Americans (the 30% who have a college degree or higher), the proportion of children born outside of marriage climbed only slightly from 2% to 6%, the divorce rate dropped from 15% to 11%, and intact first marriages dropped from 73% to 56%.

In sum, the relationships of Middle Americans increasingly resemble those of the poor, while marriages among upscale Americans are getting better in many respects.

Surely the kids would be better off with happy but divorced parents, if the finances arent so awful that is. But I guess what shocked me is that a couple loves each other enough to make children and yet not maintain the spark of love to keep the couple going.

One needn't "love enough" to make a child -- they simply have to have sex. I think you'd agree, judging from your past posts, that love isn't a necessary ingredient for having sex.

I am with Cliff on this -- I think the effect of divorce on children is overblown in the media today. Would children have better outcomes with intact, happy families? Perhaps. Will they have a poor outcome if in a "broken" home? Perhaps. Can one grow up poor, in a divorced home and turn out "alright" -- absolutely -- I did it. Did I have issues, sure -- but not any all that different from friends and cousins in "intact" families with money.

So -- yes, if one makes a committment, one should work at maintaining it (Joe is so right, relationships take lots of work), however, if that work doesn't solve the problems, then divorce is a good thing. It can help remove the bitterness and hurt that can happen from maintain a charade of a marriage.

Personally, I think divorce is caused from the media portraying love as some easy and "perfect" thing. Folks get horribly disillusioned when the glow fades. Add to that the change in the last generation or so of putting the needs of the children first and foremost. I don't mean basic needs, like food, love, shelter -- I mean letting them rule the roost. This paradigm completely removes any time for a couple to be a couple (not too mention creating a whole slew of kids who feel entitled to everything. So, you can't put "work" into your marriage when all your time is taken up giving into every whim of your children.

Surely the kids would be better off with happy but divorced parents, if the finances arent so awful that is. But I guess what shocked me is that a couple loves each other enough to make children and yet not maintain the spark of love to keep the couple going.

You don't have to "love each other" in order to produce children, you only have to fuck (without condoms). Kinda like getting infected with hiv.

Yeah, Mike beat me to it, but I had to reiterate.

I grew up with two parents who hated each other's guts. If they had split when I was a baby, I most likely would have been happier. They didn't, but I still refused to let them fuck with my head to the extent that I visited their sins on my child. We are the masters of our own destiny, despite what horrors our parents may be.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

It's the time of year. It's a dreadful thing, and I always end up in the position to shout a teary "I told you people" at the end of it.

People whose nerves have been frayed to the breaking point trying to work extra hard because of the holiday, buy shit they cannot afford for people they only know through blood (and then, barely) and end up cooped together in houses full of strangers while their own struggling relationships go off the deep end.

Duh.

All I can say is, to the people whose relationships did NOT go up in flames over the holidays, you folks have a solid fucking relationship.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Ah that's another good perspective - the stress of the holidays gives a special view.

As a side, it was pretty shocking when I arrived here for the level of consumer reserve - presents are few, modest, and far between, compared to my American upbringing.

Had a talk other day with a Swiss woman who was an au pair 15 years ago in Larchmont (swanky ny suburb). She had culture shock when she arrived about all the consumption combined with the two parents working so hard to afford their lifestyle. And she blown away by the piles of gifts at Christmas. They dont go in for that sort of thing here.

There was a young woman on Suzy Orman's last show. (I love this show. I love this lesbian. Suze and Rachel Maddow are the two shows that seem the most reel and oddly entertaining on TV these days!)She was in tears and falling apart because of the hock and her bf were putting themselves in for their wedding and honeymoon. Plus, she had gained 15 pounds from the stress. Hmmm. Bad start, eh?

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

The average cost of a US wedding is $19,581! That to me is ridiculous. If I'm forced to get married we are having a hippy theme: naked on the beach with a pot luck reception to follow.

Now watch it there ford! As a person who makes 20-25% of my annual income from a sideline wedding business, I say the more the better....

Seriously my philosophy on this is that if a family has the money to do a large lavish wedding then by all means go for it. Most of my wedding parties are families who can afford the event and whose weddings are probably double the average cost stated above. Where I really have a concern is when I see families that obviously cannot afford to spend a great deal of of money on the wedding. The family or the new couple end up with huge credit card debt or use money that could have been used for a down payment on a home.

And Miss P when you do go dress shopping make sure you make it on the television show, "Say Yes to the Dress".

« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 10:22:52 AM by woodshere »

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

And who will be the WONDERFUL groom? I seriously HOPE that you signed a pre-nup.

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"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Thus far our wedding in DC this spring will cost us airfare, $80.00 for two tungsten rings,a few bucks for the person to perform the ceremony, certificates and food for 5 days.My partner found free lodging from fellow members of homesacrosstheworld.com.No need to waste money stupidly, but then again we are gay men.When will straights learn?

Where I really have a concern is when I see families that obviously cannot afford to spend a great deal of of money on the wedding. The family or the new couple end up with huge credit card debt or use money that could have been used for a down payment on a home.

Oh, I agree. If you got the cash, FLAUNT IT! What do you do for parties? Food? Flowers?The Clintons shelled out big for Rhinebeck!But there should be no HOCK for a wedding if there is not cash. Suze is really clear on this - and home ownership should NOT be considered the American Dream. She has a formula for security that makes sense to me. Oops, but I just spent 100 bucks today I guess I didnt have!One of these couples on the rocks I referred to had the most miraculous wedding. And, they've built a contemporary home to die for. Money doesn't fix everything, unfortunately.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Oh, I agree. If you got the cash, FLAUNT IT! What do you do for parties? Food? Flowers?

I'd spend it on a honeymoon full of Central American rent-a-boys and exercise equipment.

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"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

And since both of us will probably be maids of "honor" I'm sure that we'll be given some fantastic couture to wear. No pastels for me please.

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"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

I am using the National Guard Armory in San Pedro near Sharon Tate's childhood home. My brides dress will be made from camo and combat boots with fishnet stockings. The 5 & 10 cent store on Pacific Ave where the young Miss Tate worked as a teen will provide all the glitz for the San Pedro Social Event of the year. The music for the first dance of the newly married couple... Six of my former boyfriends will sing from the Beatles White Album and the cake... The Grooms ex will jump out of the cake wearing a black sequined g-string singing in Portuguese. Have the best dayMichael

Six of my former boyfriends will sing from the Beatles White Album and the cake... The Grooms ex will jump out of the cake wearing a black sequined g-string singing in Portuguese. Have the best dayMichael

Inviting the ex-boyfriends? That would certainly make for a memorable reception!

Wow, if I did that, it would have to be an extremely large reception hall or, perhaps, closed circuit television screens for the overflow -- or maybe just rent Giant Stadium (because phildinftlaudy has been with just a few too many people; phildinftlaudy would love to have that kind of reception)

Wow, if I did that, it would have to be an extremely large reception hall or, perhaps, closed circuit television screens for the overflow -- or maybe just rent Giant Stadium (because phildinftlaudy has been with just a few too many people; phildinftlaudy would love to have that kind of reception)

Since teh Rev is an immaculate body his wedding will be held somewhere holy. A choir of angels will sing at the reception.

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"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."