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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

2. Roy is certainly the easiest to describe as overpaid, I think. I would argue that while he is overpaid, it's not as much as people might believe considering the variables in play:

a. Rarity of quality true centers
b. Even more rare, true centers who make an all-star team
c. Yet more rare, a true center matching a. and b. while also being seen as a two way player, not a one-sided specialist (offense or defense).
d. Again, rare to have a true center who plays defense as well as Roy was playing at the time
e. He had never been this awful offensively last season and it was not expected to happen, and in the meantime he may yet bounce back this season or next
f. He was seen as a guy who worked as hard as anybody to improve his body and game, with the implication being that he might keep doing so heading into this season (which, defensively, he has improved)

I feel this is a bit misleading as a defense of Hibbert. You are giving him too much credit here. Hibbert made the allstar team by default. Most talked about player on a really good team that was putting up respectable numbers, given West and Granger had relatively off years.

Hibbert had 2 really bad offensive slumps last year, infact there were grumblings prior to the playoffs that the Pacers should let him walk in RFA. Hibbert did not have a very good playoffs, besides 1 game against the Magic that we actually lost if I recall. So really totally undeserving of the max contract, we totally overpaid by matching, and honestly the guy is barely squeaking by this year just cause he is playing high level defense and top 5 in blocked shots.

Centers who do not average a double double consistently should not get max contracts. Roy has a whole host of problems with this game. He gets knocked off the block, he brings the ball down too low on put backs, he gets knocked to the floor about 10 times a game.

Even though I like hibbert and hope he improves offensively to earn that contract. He is without a doubt the most overpaid player in the league right now. He is without a doubt one of the main reasons we can not win on the road this season.

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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Roy averaged 11.7 points on 50%FG, 11.2 rebounds and 3.1 blocks. He played stunning defense allowing the Pacers to beat Miami whenever he was on the court.

Roy had a GREAT playoffs.

The only thing Roy didn't do is score a lot of points, which was always a foolish desire from his fans. Roy should be efficient on offense but no one should have ever expected him to offer much on offense.

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Read it and weep:

When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

I don't agree with your view that the Pacers had to sign Green early b/c of having to sign Hibbert and Hill quickly. I'll give on signing Hibbert early b/c the Pacers had to match Portland's offer in a certain time frame, BUT Hill didn't have to signed quickly. Walsh bid against himself and signed him early. If Walsh hadn't signed Hill early there was cap that could have been used to sign another player instead of Green.

Remember the uproar on the board over their signing early that wouldn't allow the Pacers to be able to bid on amnestied players Brand and Scola? Vnzla still hasn't gotten over it.

When did Augustin get signed? B4 or after Hill and Hibbert signed their contracts? I don't remember.

Augustin got signed before Hill and Hibbert signed their deals. He had to because he also makes more money than the room exception allows.

I think the combination of Hibbert signing+Augustin+Hill's cap hold would have been enough to put the Pacers over the cap (with or without the Mahinmi trade). At the very least, it would have put them right up against the cap with no room to pay anybody else. So Hill signing later wouldn't have affected that.

So it really just depends on if you think the Pacers could have indefinitely pushed back Hibbert's signing for amnestied players and to give time for other player's prices to come down. From the statements that have come out about amnestied players, I happen to think they were getting pressure to get the Hibbert deal done and couldn't have delayed it, but at the end of the day there isn't conclusive proof on either side of that debate.

9.7 and 8 for a guy that is making 14mil a year for the next 4 years? I love Roy but he is becoming one of the must overpay players in the league, hopefully he gets better, and like I said before I think it was the right decision to overpay for him.

He has a similar contract with Marc Gasol and Marc is not overpaid.

In fact, the two players had similar production before Hibbert's drop in scoring this seaso.

I love Hill but the Pacers made a mistake in not letting the market set the price, guys like Felton, DJ, Hinrich and others were free agents, I think he is getting overpay for like 3mil, similar players(Felton, Hinrich, Jarret Jack) are making way less.

Felton was horrible in his 2 years in Denver and Portland. He was out of shape and several people argued that he was not the player he was in New York and Charlotte. He looked disinterested and we chose well not to go for him, imo.

Hinrich is 32 years old and he's averaging 6.3 PPG and 5.2 APG. At this point of his career he is a dependable back-up. Not a starter. He is a good stopgap for Chicago until Rose returns and he is good veteran but that's about it.

Jarret Jack is certainly underpaid at this point. He is probably too good to be a backup at this point.

The Pacers were looking for their PG of the future and they consider Hill to be that guy. The one that will grow with their core of PG and Roy. His contract is reasonable for his role.

In overall, I don't consider Hill overpaid. He's a bit cheaper than Conley and they're on a similar level. I certainly consider Jarret Jack underpaid, though.

I compare Ian's salary and productivity with other backups and my problem with Ian is not that he is making 4mil a year but that he is making them for the next 4 years, those 4 millions are going to hurt the Pacers when is time to resign Danny, West, Paul George and Lance, I guess I'm not a fan of paying a backup that kind of money if that backup doesn't bring an specialty, Ian to me is not the difference between winning a championship or not.

Ian is certainly cheaper than Asik or Gibson, for example. I can see the argument about the duration of the contract, though.

However, I do believe that having a rim protector in the second unit can be a difference between winning a championship or not.

Why no sign Barbosa for vet minimum instead of signing this guy? no only he is making 3 millions but he is making them for the next 3 years, the guy needs to be in the D league.

I like Barbosa but I agreed with taking a risk on Green. He fits the team's defensive identity better than Barbosa. If he wasn't in a shooting slump his contract would look better as that's the kind of money that back-up athletic swingmen that can shoot the 3 get.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

How are you planning on getting out from under Green's GUARANTEED contract? If he's traded you have to take back the same in salary, unless you can get some team under the cap to take him, and I rate that probability at slim to next to none.

Sure you have to take back salary, but not necessarily over three years. We can afford Green over two years (even double his salary), not the third though when all the key contracts come up. Based upon my recollection, CBA deals have to be within 40% now, so we could give up Green making $3.5M over three years and a filler salary and take back a similarily bad contract making appx. 6-8M over two years. We may pay more in total dollars, but we are free and clear the third year. The other teams pays less each year and in total dollars, but has a third year. It depends on each teams situation. Green is not vastly overpaid - I think there are a few teams out there still likely intrigued by his potential and could use him as a third wing. Based upon our financial circumstances and the fact we have three superior wings already, he's just not a good fit here.

You don't think a team like the Kings would give us a bad contract like Salmons ($7-8M this year and next) for Green, filler, and a 2nd rounder? I do. They save money over the long haul and cap space this year and next.

Caron Butler (2 years 8M) who is losing his minutes to Barnes on a LAC team desperate to shed LT salary for next year when CP3 and Blake are getting new deals. 3.5M vs 8.0M is a HUGE nut for them next year.

Trevor Ariza, Klieza, Brandon Roy, Charlie Villenueva. There are plenty of equally terrible contracts making more on two year deals than Green over three. It's not as difficult as you think.

Edit: I should have been more clear after reading my original post. I do not expect to straight salary dump Green, just look at options to shed that final year.

Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

I think all those guys are overpaid, Danny's injury and health issues makes him even more overpaid compared to the other players mentioned.

Danny signed the contract before his 26ppg season by the way, he was averaging 19ppg at the time he signed.

Or you could just call it "market value" seeing as how they're produce similiar and their paid similiar. You keep trying to use your personal reasoning, instead of the realizing what the actual market is/was.

As someone pointed out in a different thread. ALL players are overpaid. The discussion is whether or not it's overpaid for the market, not whether they're just simply overpaid.

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Re: 2012-13 NBA Random Thoughts Thread IX: Ode to Joy

Another thing I like about Danny's return is that I am almost sure he will help us a lot with our road woes.
Danny can certainly be a BAMF. Won't forget the show he put up against the Wolves and Love last season. But it was those pills we were taking, right?

PS: Actually there is only one thing that I hate about Danny's game. Those mid range shots he takes in the midst of a fast break.