About Me

In the name of Allah (God),
I have decided to dedicate sincere and honest endeavour in helping to establish the Truth by helping to defend the good name of the last Prophet (pbuh) of Allah as well as refuting many other lies and misconceptions that are being disseminated by the insincere, wicked, deceptive, intellectually and morally bankrupted individuals as well as the ignorant individuals who all share a faulty characteristic; a blatant disregard for the Truth.
I ask Allah to purify my intentions and save me from doing any good action for self-aggrandizement, as all actions are judged by intentions. May Allah Love me, and bless this work. My message to any non-Muslim reading this is thus:
Please give Islam a chance, research it for yourself and allow Muslims and Muslim sources to be your primary resources you refer to when studying Islam rather than basing your views on agenda-motivated Islamophobic sources.
O Allah, You are Al-Wadud (The Loving)...please O Allah love me and bless all those Muslims and non-Muslims who read this.
Ameen

Sunday, 9 October 2011

Defending Prophet Muhammad Against Attacks - Yasir Qadhi

Sheikh Yasir Qadhi delivers an extremely beneficial lecture which aids us against the Islamophobic hatred on the net. Yasir Qadhi runs through some of the primary modes of attack against Prophet Muhammad (p) whilst giving some examples of the slanders and lies against the Prophet (p). Make this a must listen - it is less than an hour long

For those who want to go a little further than listening to the lecture you can re-upload it and/or spread it via social media networks so other Muslims can benefit from it.

Christian Peter the Venerable's lie of Prophet Muhammad (p) being born in the year 666

Lie of distorting the name 'Muhammad'

Danish Cartoons

William Muir's 'Satanic verses' claim

Let them bark, don't be disheartened

Yasir Qadhi reminds us that Prophets and holy men have been ridiculed and insulted in the past by riff raff. Thus it should not come as a surprise for us to be met by some of the distortions and slanders against the Propet Muhammad. The Sheikh also teaches us that as Muslims we should respond with nobility, academically and intellectually.

May Allah guide us all and send His peace and blessings upon all His Prophets. Ameen

168 comments:

He is a powerhouse, mashAllah. I dont think he would even waste his time with any of these pathetic Christian Apologists. Their work is futile.. They dont work towards progress, they just are fueled by hatred.

Thanks, this clone of Zakir Naik is really funny, he refutes.....nothing!His (really) fast non-explanation of Aisha's marriage at 32:45 summarizes that whole show.I like how he repeats all the time, "this is very important", "it's difficult", "people don't understand", "it's cultural" (so why does he look so 7th century arabic!)....Not convincing at all, I've heard and read better.

Well at least he was honest that his prophet the best moral example for man kind was a cradle rober.

Whats funny is that he is correct, it was the cultural norm, but becasue of muslims admiration of Mohamed he turned a cultural norm in 7th century Arabia into the cultural norm in any place at any time.

Well there were a lot of things that the pagans agreed with the muslims and with christians for that matter too. For instance that you should wash your hands after taking a dump. So by your standard we shouldn't wash our hands after taking a dump because the pagans did it. The argument doesn't only apply to the pagans, the cultural norm in those days everywhere was a lower age of marriage than today. You can't compare a nine year old girl of those days with a nine year old girl today. Why did he wait for three years before consumating the marriage?

"So by your standard we shouldn't wash our hands after taking a dump because the pagans did it."

I couldnt of said it better myself. What your prophet did to Aisha is about the same as the filth that I clean from my self after I deficate. To bad Muslims can not clean the filth of Mohamed off of them as easy as I wash my hands. Then again what I wash from my hands is a little cleaner then what Mohamed did.

The reason I say this is not because of what he did. You are right there are cultural and social norms. Just like cleaning once self after defication is a universal norm. Accaptable and permisable in all cultures and in all times.

And that is he point. What Mohamed did may of been accaptable to 7th century pagan arabs who killed their own daughters by burring them alive. But since he did what he did, it is now permisable to do, in all cultures in all times.

'..FIrst can you point out where Americans in teh 19th century could mary 7 year old girls?

But even if that is true does not take away from the fact that using what KUFFAR do as your moral mesuring rod..'

'..In the late nineteenth century,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven..'

This issue of Aisha's age has been brought up numerous times. The problem is a lot if people apply standards of today to something that occurred 1400 years ago. Aisha was mature enough to marry the Prophet (pbuh). A common objection brought up was that she used to play with dolls, but this negligible as many mature people still enjoy playing games of sorts. My friends who are well over 20 like to play Angry Birds on their iPhone.

In Islam, you immediately become an adult the moment you reach a certain age of maturity, something that is contrary to western culture, in which an 18 year old is still viewed as a juvenile.

The standards are that whether or not somebody is fit for marriage is dependent on whether an individual meets certain criteria. Today girls are generally older in terms of meeting those criteria than before. It's as simple as that. The reason you guys object is because you have habit of shaping your morals on the basis of the specific culture you live in. Unfortuanetly, christianity does not provide any concrete rules of conduct.

Brother Snow, please delete Mud rakes very offensive remarks about our prophet and ban him from the site. I think he's crossed the line.

The standards are that whether or not somebody is fit for marriage is dependent on whether an individual meets certain criteria.

I say,

Does that criteria include reached puberty and possesses the mental maturity of at least an adolescent?

Lobo said,

The reason you guys object is because you have habit of shaping your morals on the basis of the specific culture you live in.

I say,

Not at all I try to shape my morals based only on the revelation of God expressed most clearly in the person of Jesus.

This is a huge difference in our faiths as I see it.

I endeavor to imitate God in the person of Jesus Christ and you endeavor to imitate man in the person of a 7th century Arab trader. Your morals will always be bound to a particular time and place and mine will always transcend culture.

You say

Unfortuanetly, christianity does not provide any concrete rules of conduct.

I say,

Quote:

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12)

It’s simple really.

Put your self in the place of a nine year old girl and ask yourself if you would want someone to prevent you from being removed from your home and placed in the charge of a fifty year old man for the purpose of fulfilling his needs sexual and otherwise.

If the answer is yes then pedophilia is wrong no matter what the culture says.

a few problems1) shamoun is a wussy, doesn't even make proper points but just attacks by calling muslims dogs

2) david wood is a bigger wussy, and a major huckster. he'll automatically tell the debbate moderator to disqualify the muslim just because david can't come up with an answer

3) white will ask for that same fatwa on terrorism, despite the fact its available online for the past three years

oh and both el lobo and 1 more muslim are correct. how many 9 year olds become battle commanders? how many council their husbands and others? how many 9 year olds go on to become leading scholars? how many 9 year old take part in politics?

"Sam Shamoun is a wussy, he doesn't even make proper points but just attacks by calling muslims dogs"

Its funn you do the very same thing you accuse Sam, and David of by not making any point proper or other wise, and then calling them both wussy's.

Tell me when did David Wood ever ask a moderator to disqualify a openet becasue he didnt have a response?

I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to Dr White and a 3 year old Fatwa on Terrorism. I assume you are talking about a FATWA that is against terrorism. Funny how it took Muslims 7 or 8 years to get around to it. LOL.

You then went on talking about How Aisha grew up to lead men in rebelion against the Rightly Guided Caliph ALI, the irony of the fact that he is your name sake has not escaped me. WOW a Muslim woman leads Muslims men to KILL OTHER MUSLIMS. All I can say is that Mohamed raised her right.

"RAdical ModerateRead this from top to bottom, then come back to apologize. age of consent.. read and learn."

Ok I'm sorry you are ignorant of american history.

No where does your little article ever mention Delaware. Again let me repeat there was never a law in DELAWARE that set the mim age at 7, neither was there any law in Delaware that set any min age.

Not only are you ignorant of american history but you seem to be ignorant of the very article you posted. Lets take a look.

In 1689 Mary Hathaway was only 9 when she married Willima WIlliams. I bet you are licking your lips on that saying "AH HAAAA" well to bad becasue the article reads on "two years later she sued for divorce,and was released from the covenant she had made because the marriage had not been consummated"

Looks like a Kuffar could control himself more then your prophet could since Mohamed had sex with AIsha when she was 9.

But even if this was done for sexual union and not for political, financial (property rights) etc... still does not change the fact that we can change a disgusting practice you MUSLIMS CAN NOT.

You also wrote...

"Radical Moderate ???? There is no minimum age in USA ? Oh that is even better!!"

Yes there is no Federal Law on Consent that is left to the states. But with that said we do have the Mann act. That makes it a crime to transport a minor from one state to another state for the purpose of having sex, even if it is not a crime in the state he or she is transported to.

I again repeat my question...

IS IT PERMISABLE IN ISLAMIC SOCIEITES UNDER ISLAMIC LAW FOR A GROWN MAN TO MARY AND HAVE SEX WITH A 9 YEAR OLD?

10 year old is OK? 12, 14 ... So which one Filth Man? Use your remaining neurons. come on it's not rocket science! You gave the best answer: Mat 7:12. Arabs used to accept giving their daughters at 9, then it's was OK for them to marry them at 9. thank you.

The US Federal Age of Sexual Consentby Marshall Burns, Ph.D. Detailed comments for Q&A # 40: “Is the age of consent set by state or federal law?”In the United States, most laws governing sexual activity, including issues of consent, fall under state jurisdiction.

Thank you for participating Radical Moderate, good night. good luck next time.

"Detailed comments for Q&A # 40: “Is the age of consent set by state or federal law?”In the United States, most laws governing sexual activity, including issues of consent, fall under state jurisdiction."

Do you know how to read?

In the United States, most laws governing sexual activity, including issues of consent, fall under state jurisdiction."

FMM don't you find it funny that the Muslims main response to Mohamed and Aisha is that we are wrong for looking back through the lense of the 21st century and judging what mohamed did based on modern day social norms.

However when asked if it is permisable today for in a Islamic society to do what Mohamed did to Aisha? They seem to run away lol

'..so you are saying that is the bible records someone doing somthing then it is moraly OK?

I'm still trying to understand..'

Its very simple to me. The bible is your moral authority. Biblical isaac (40 yr sold) married (and probably consummated) his marriage with biblical rebekah (3 yrs old). This makes you christians to have a biblical precedent being the lower age limit for a girl for marriage (and consummation of marriage) to be 3 yrs old (prepubescent)

However you guys are all up in arms when Prophet Muhammad(saw) consummated his marriage with Aishah(ra) when she attained puberty. Attaining puberty is the biological sign that the girl has become a woman , able to have sexual intercourse and can bear children.

Biblically you have a lower 'moral' standards yet you complain to an issue with a higher 'moral' standards. Isn't such hypocrisy?

An Arab in 7th century won't see the difference, not a Roman, nor many people of the world. Do to others what you do to yourself is another name for Customs. Customs is what people see RIGHT to do for themselves. Please FMM I am still waiting for an answer what is the "good" age of marriage with authority please? What is the limit between too young and enough old to marry? Do you use your own judgment? Or the man-made law that changes with time.

'..IS IT PERMISABLE IN ISLAMIC SOCIEITES UNDER ISLAMIC LAW FOR A GROWN MAN TO MARY AND HAVE SEX WITH A 9 YEAR OLD?..'

What is the law of the land? If the law prohibit such .... it is then illegal.

Where in the said hadith that states a muslims must marry and consummate the marriage to a 9 yrs old girl - a girl who just attained puberty?

Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage and consummation of marriage to Aishah(ra) has the blessings of exe16:7-8. I reproduce the commentary of your high priest of shamonian :

'..What the readers of our site may not know is that the Holy Bible makes a reference to the general age of a girl considered for marriage. The reference is found in a parable where God likens Israel to a baby girl whom Yahweh took in and then eventually married. The parable proceeds to liken Israel’s dabble with idolatry to a wife who commits adultery and prostitution.

'..Not only does this specific parable present the marriageable age of a girl, the parable also assumes that this is a fact that was already well known and observed by the peoples, specifically Israel..'

'..You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare. Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love,..' (eze16:7-8)

'..God mentions that the young babe attained the age for lovemaking after her breasts had formed and her pubic hairs had grown, clear signs of puberty..'

An Arab in 7th century won't see the difference, not a Roman, nor many people of the world.

I say,

A nine year old Arab girl in the 7th century would see the difference or she should and that is the whole point.

you say,

Do to others what you do to yourself is another name for Customs. Customs is what people see RIGHT to do for themselves.

I say,

NO No no

you are just completely incorrect here.

This scripture has been used by Christians repeatedly through out history to challenge custom.

In nineteen century America slavery was the “custom” but abolitionists like Lincoln said.

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master.”

in the first half of the twenteth century segregation was the custom in the USA

President Kennedy in 1963 appealed to the golden rule in an anti-segregation speech at the time of the first black enrollment at the University of Alabama. He asked whites to consider what it would be like to be treated as second-class citizens because of skin color. Whites were to imagine themselves being black -- and being told that they couldn't vote, or go to the best public schools, or eat at most public restaurants, or sit in the front of the bus. Would whites be content to be treated that way? He was sure that they wouldn't -- and yet this is how they treated others. He said the

"heart of the question is ... whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated."

I could give more many more examples like that if you like.

You said,

Please FMM I am still waiting for an answer what is the "good" age of marriage with authority please?

I say,

I've already answered you

Maybe it will help if I put it in the style of antithesis that My Lord used in the sermon on the mount.......

You have head it said it is not good to marry before puberty but I say to you I say it is good for people not to marry at all unless they cannot exercise self-control

(1 Corinthians 7:8-9)

Asking what age it is OK to marry is exactly the wrong question to ask.

You should be asking “should I get married at all?”

You said,

What is the limit between too young and enough old to marry? Do you use your own judgment? Or the man-made law that changes with time.

I say,

The “limit” is when both parities are no longer able to exercise self control and are in danger of committing fornication .

I’m not sure how I can be more clear. That is what the Word of God plainly says not my judgment or man made laws.

For me and my wife it was after we had courted for over a year. We were both over 20. On the other hand I know folks who never reach that “limit” and remain happily single their entire life.

Notice the Christian thought process is a completely different mindset than the Muslim who asks "when is it OK for me to marry this young girl I have my eye on?"

Its very simple to me. The bible is your moral authority. Biblical isaac (40 yr sold) married (and probably consummated) his marriage with biblical rebekah (3 yrs old). This makes you christians to have a biblical precedent being the lower age limit for a girl for marriage (and consummation of marriage) to be 3 yrs old (prepubescent)

I say,

Putting aside your attempt at math to look at the bigger picture

Christians are not told to pattern our behavior after people in the Bible except to the extent that they are imitating Christ. All the men in the bible except Jesus are subject to the same human failures as me.

I would never do something because a person in the Bible did it. The children of Israel were constantly falling short of the moral standard set out in the Bible and often they committed heinous sins.

Your response "IF THE LAW PROHIBITS" was not a answer to the question that was asked.

Way to run from the question. Let me ask it again.

IS IT PERMISABLE IN ISLAMIC SOCIEITES UNDER ISLAMIC LAW FOR A GROWN MAN TO MARY AND HAVE SEX WITH A 9 YEAR OLD?

Its funny all the Muslims on this blog say that we are judging what mohamed did to AIsha through the lens of the 21st century.

But when muslims are asked is this 7th Century Arab Pagan practice accaptable in todays society you Muslims seem to be awlful ashamed of what your prophet did. A man who you claim is the greatest moral example of man kind.

Let me ask the question in another way.

Under Islamic theology is there any thing wrong with a grown man marying a 9 year old girl and having sex with her when she is 9 years old if he so chooses?

"I believe in One GOD the father, and his Son Jesus Christ, the creator of all things. The father shows the son all that he can do, and the son can do what ever the father does. He can give life to whom ever he is pleased to give it just like the Father. "

Talking to Filth Monarchy Man is like debating a 2 year old Child. We have a wide historical view about Aisha's standing point about her marriage, and she was much more than happy with it.

"in the first half of the twenteth century segregation was the custom in the USA"

No , that was a custom only for the White folks, that is why we had the revolt of the slaves. You are comparing slavery with something Ancient people agreed upon 100 %.The Irony is that the Slaves of USA, by their uprising, were disobeying Paul. Paul ordered Slaves to stay slaves because Christ is coming soon.

You say over 20 is OK. So 18 is bad? which is it? Show me your authority about a Girl should be more than x or Y ?

"RAdical Moderate:In Delaware marrying 7 year old girl is legal by state juridiction. Who cares about federal or state law?"

First NO YOU CAN NOT MARY A 7 YEAR OLD IN DELAWARE.Try a keep up, it was the slogan of those in Delaware who where lobying in Delaware to pass a min age law, that becasue the state did not have ANY laws when it came to the age of consent it would be possible for a grown man to legally mary a 7 year old. It was part of their campaign. DO YOU UNDERSTAND. This is not to say that people did MARY 7 year olds in DELAWARE, it was just something the State had never addressed and was now being addressed.

As far as Federal Law is concerened I was responding to you in regards to age of concent in the US, I was demonstrating your lack of understanding that there is a difference between state and federal law.

But be that as it may. PLease answer my question.

DO YOU THINK IT IS OK FOR A GROWN MAN of 54 IN THIS DAY AND AGE TO MARY A 9YEAR OLD AND HAVE SEX?

Radical Moderate: I demonstrated over and over again your state of denial. No proof is enough good for you. Mary Hathaway was only nine when she was married to William Williams. We know of her case only because two years later she sued for divorce

If Mrs Heathaway have done it , so everybody could. How in the world one can issue a divorce without being married? loool. May be she was married by a "slogan". lol

DO YOU THINK IT IS OK FOR A GROWN MAN IN THIS DAY AND AGE TO MARY A 9 YEAR OLD AND HAVE SEX?

Show me that 9 year old girl, and I will tell you.

Now answer my question: What is the minimum age of marriage and give us your authority?

"Radical Moderate: I demonstrated over and over again your state of denial. No proof is enough good for you. Mary Hathaway was only nine when she was married to William Williams. We know of her case only because two years later she sued for divorce

LOL you kind of left something out the MARIAGE WAS NOT CONSUMATED lol.

You continue...

"If Mrs Heathaway have done it , so everybody could. How in the world one can issue a divorce without being married? loool. May be she was married by a "slogan". lol"

I never denied anywhere that people married as children. As a mater of fact I stated very clearly that infants where married to each other. These things where done for a number of reasons. Family Politics, Economic all kinds of social reasons. BUT IT WAS HARDLY EVER DONE WHAT WAS DONE TO AISHA. I"m sure you could find some place somewhere that someone did do it. But that is the exception to the norm. As you stated 100 percent of all PAGAN ARABS agreed with it.

Now moving on.You are really having a problem with time and space and well facts of history.

First she was married in 1680+ and in the colony of Virginia I beleive. That is about a thousand miles and 200 years removed from Delaware.

PAY ATTENTION, the information that you REGERITATED (VOMITED OUT) in regards to DELAWARE having a mim age of consent of 7 years old is FALSE. THERE NEVER WAS ANY LAW IN DELEWARE SETTING THE MIM AGE TO 7, at the time there was NO LAW SETTING ANY MIN AGE. That was the point.

Radical Moderate you , ONCE AGAIN, forgot to answer my question: What should be the minimum age of marriage and what is your authority ?

Traditionally the age at which individuals could come together in a sexual union ....In medieval Europe, Gratian, the influential founder of Canon law in the twelfth century, accepted the traditional age of puberty for marriage (between 12 and 14) but he also said consent was "meaningful" if the children were older than SEVEN.......Similarly Gratian's ideas about age became part of European civil law.

This is my point. Is so easy for christians to insult Prophet Muhammad(saw) regarding his marriage to Aishah(ra). However most are ignorant of their own biblical standards.

When pointed out , you simply throw the bible out of the window and claim that you follow biblical jesus. If you claim such , christians should not even marry as biblical jesus did not get married. Biblical jesus lived among the israelites , its thru judaism people marry back then.

from you :'..IS IT PERMISABLE IN ISLAMIC SOCIEITES UNDER ISLAMIC LAW FOR A GROWN MAN TO MARY AND HAVE SEX WITH A 9 YEAR OLD?..'

Thank you for confirming your less than average intelligence. Bro Yasir Qadhi did point out in his talk that is to discuss about Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage with Aishah(ra) , the counter party needs to have a bit of intelligence. Too bad , you have none.

Why are blabbering about 9 yrs old? If you notice (which you have not till now) , we muslims have been explaining with regards to puberty. Puberty is also grossly misleading. In shariah , it is 'baleegh' which roughly translates to(1) attaining puberty(2) mental / physical readiness for sexual relationship.

Puberty alone is not enough.

That is why Aishah(ra) stated that at 9 she became a women , not she attained puberty. Her attestation :'..When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman..'(Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab: al-Nikah, Bab: Maa Jaa'a fee Ikraah Al Yateemah 'alaa al tazweej, Hadith no. 1027).

Every girl reaches 'baleegh' at different ages. That is why in the ME , a blanket law in the ages of consent being ~ 15 - 16 yrs old.

Marriage is of 2 phases(1) The contract ie. nikah(2) The consummation of marriage

Try to use your brains the next time. It is not that difficult actually.

---------------------------

Ooooh , you took your shahadah , it being :'..I believe in One GOD the father, and his Son Jesus Christ, the creator of all things. The father shows the son all that he can do, and the son can do what ever the father does. He can give life to whom ever he is pleased to give it just like the Father..'

"RAdical Moderate is right, every single document I show should be false. What do people mean when they say the age of consent in Delaware was 7 year old?"

Silly 1milimeter thats not true. Just the two documents you posted so far that say the mim age of consent in Delware was 7.

Simply repeating the same lie over and over again does not make it true.

Here tell you what, I could be wrong and unlike you I don't have that Muslim pride so I can admit when I'm wrong. So tell you what you find me the statute from Deleware in the 19th century, (thats the 1800's) that states the mim age in Delaware is 7 years old.

Here is what it will look like.

Title 11 § 761. Definitions generally applicable to sexual offences. (j) A child who has not yet reached his or her sixteenth birthday is deemed unable to consent to a sexual act with a person more than 4 years older than said child. Children who have not yet reached their twelfth birthday are deemed unable to consent to a sexual act under any circumstances.

I want the Article, the Title, and the Subsection if aplicapable. By article I don't mean a news paper article I mean the article that the law is under.

from you :'..She doesnt say anything about puberty only the age at age 9 a girl becomes a woman.

you some how interprit this to mean, that puberty is not enough that she must be ready to have sex? But Aisha said that at 9 a girl becomes a woman?

Scratch head on this one..'

Why do you try your darn best to appear having less than average intelligence? Now you claim that becoming a woman does not mean puberty? Can you look up the definition of woman? I believe it means 'adult female'. You are going round and round chasing your backside. You really make christians appear clumsy.

Of course puberty is not enough. The woman in question must be physically and mentally ready for sexual intercourse. What is your issue apart from blabbering without direction?

From you :'..LOL ok let me ask you when and who decides when a little girl is

"(2) mental / physical readiness for sexual relationship"????..'

The girl and her parents. This is subjective therefore the blanket law of ~ 15-16 being the minimum ages of marriage in out time and age due to cultural transformation.

From you :'..Yes Mohamed and Aisha where Nikah when she was 6, and Mohamed NIKAED AISHA WHEN SHE WAS 9..'

TQ again ... this is evidence of smut in your thinking. I am sure you watched porno before responding. Your comment reflects the mindset of christians especially members of the cult of shamonian of which you are a loyal foot soldier.

From you :'..I did not throw the Bible out. The Bible itself makes it clear that every man is subject to sin so only God can serve as a perfect example for us..'

Ok then , you should now acknowledge that(1) the bible has lower moral standards as biblical isaac(40 yrs old) married and probably consummated his marriage with biblical rebekah (3 yrs old) - a prepubescent(2) Prophet Muhammad(saw) has fullfilled the biblical criteria of consummation of his marriage to Aishah(ra) with her attaining puberty.

Where in the bible that states consummation of marriage to a 9 yrs old lady who has attained puberty is morally wrong - according to biblical jesus law and his spirit? If there is none , you are making things up.

Where is the so called higher standard of marriage by biblical jesus as claimed by you? If you need to follow biblical jesus , you christians must not marry , your so called man-god did not marry.

Christians , moresoever shamonians are very creative in making things up.

from you :'..It’s a bizzaro world when the guy defending marriage to a 9 year old accuses the guy arguing against it of having smut in his thinking.

Sam I know this is a touchy subject for you but do you really think this kind of ad hominim helps your case?

Why not just defend your arguement instead of making unsubstantiated personal attacks?..'

Ha ha , look at the shamoniam , 'radical moderate'. You don't even know what you are talking about. This nikah to mean 'f***' comes from non other than the high priest of shamonian , your high priest. Do you guys know arabic? I don't claim to know but in all academic sense you are wrong - dead wrong.

'..Here’s what Al-Mawrid, arguably the most commonly used Arabic-to-English and English-to-Arabic lexicon, says: .. nikah and nakaha (the verb/root nikah comes from), all relate to marriage..'

'..Al-Mu‘jam al-Wasit .. the word zawaj (marriage) as being synonymous to nikah–and in fact to all the various words from the root “n k h”. In other words, all refer to marriage, marrying and the procedure of marriage..'

'..Prof. Joseph Schacht, who is considered by many to be the pioneer of Islamic legal studies in the West, notes in theEncyclopedia of Islam (2nd Edition) that while “sexual intercourse” is a meaning, “in the Kur’an [it is] used exclusively for the contract of marriage.” Wherever the word nikah is used in the Quran, it means the contract of betrothal/marriage–not sexual intercourse..'

Now our shamonian , radical moderate is trying to extricate himself from the mess he is in by saying '..The funny thing is that NIKAH is arabic slang for the F word..'

So did you watch porn before you responded? The smut in your thinking is just beyond belief. What to do? The influence of the of the high priest of shamonian.

From fmm :'..so are you saying that if a 9 year old and her parents say it's Ok for her to marry today it would be OK with you?..'

It is already a taboo in the modern arab world for 9 yrs old marriage. This is the transformation of culture. How can any parents do it as it is already a law requiring the minimun age to be ~ 15 - 16.

You guys need to have a thought process before responding with such comments of marriage to a 9 yrs old girl. You are not needling any of us muslims but such line of argument reflects smut in your thinking. This issue has been explained countless times.

Yes NIKAH in Arabic slang means the F word as you yourself testified to when you accused me of watching porn in response to what I wrote...

"And Mohamed Nikahed her when she was 9"

If it is not the F word in Arabic slang then why did you respond the way you did with my use of the word?

LOL

Now I'm going to tell you that funny story which is in FIASCO a great book.

During the early days of the occupation of Iraq the US military came up with a great plan. This was in 2004-5 very early on.

Anyway it was a great plan by all accounts. The plan called for the Iraqi poeple to help the coalition provinsional authority rebuild Iraq. In other words put Iraqi's back to work rebuilding their own country.

Well they printed out flyers to be handed out at the squad level, they bought advertisment space on radio and television stations etc..It was a all out marketing blitz.

Well as the military does everything is in achronyms, The slogan was something like "Help the provisonal coalition government with (THe ACHRONYM) IRAQ.

Well that achronym for the program in arabic was NIKAH or something close to it.

SO it read "Help the provisonal coalition government F#### IRAQ.

Well needless to say, the program was not well recieved. Squad leaders where shocked that after having positive friendly discussion with local Iraqi leaders, they would get spit on after handing out the flyer explaining the program.

It is a classic lesson in learning and understanding the slang of your target audiance. Like legendary marketing tale of the Chevy NOVA in spanish speaking companies. NO VA means NO GO in Spanish.

From you :'..If it is not the F word in Arabic slang then why did you respond the way you did with my use of the word?

LOL

Now I'm going to tell you that funny story which is in FIASCO a great book..'

Look at yourself. Now you are trying to extricate yourself from the mess you are in by citing 'slang'. This is pathetic , you cannot even be honest with yourself.

You are already a 40 odd yrs old adult and never married. Us muslims here are married with families practicing intimacy or sex with our rightful wives. The best you can do is probably imagine such (hopefully not more than that) with audio visual aids and it shows in your lewd thinking regarding Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra). Your shamonian buddies ought to be mightily ashamed of you.

Now that you have been shamed , you are trying to side step the issue with , ha ha , a story. This is pathetic.

From you :'..I forgot to add that in the bible WOMAN is called "A HELP" to man.

In Islam a woman is called "A TILTH" to be entered any way the man pleases..'

Tilth?? The verse is using a metaphor of a farmer and his land. To the farmer , the land he 'tilth' is taken care with utmost care and love. Your bible addresses the wife as 'a help'. Using the same metaphor , a help from the farmer's perspective will be an ox which helps him 'tilth' his land. TQ again , you shamonians regard the wife as an animal.

THe only one who is shamed is you 1milimeter and el lobo and all other westernized Muslims. The only one who is side steping the issue of "Is it permisible today for a grown Muslim man to mary and have sex with 9 year old girl?" IS YOU/.

I find it funny that the word for Mariage "NIKAH" is also the slang word in Arabic for the F word in english.

Are you going to lie and deny it again?

I also find it funny that you compare woman to a ox that plows the TILTH, and at the same time your quran compares woman to that TILTH which you say is just a piece of property owned by the farmer.

And I think I'm pretty much done here unless you wnat to answer my question? Let me repeat it again.

Is it permisible today for a grown Muslim man to mary and have sex with 9 year old girl?"

from you :'..THe only one who is shamed is you 1milimeter and el lobo and all other westernized Muslims. The only one who is side steping the issue of "Is it permisible today for a grown Muslim man to mary and have sex with 9 year old girl?" IS YOU/.

I find it funny that the word for Mariage "NIKAH" is also the slang word in Arabic for the F word in english..'

You are again trying your darnest to appear less than intelligent. The explanation provided has been 'baleegh' however you still pursue with 9 yrs old. Are you mentally stable? You seem to have this funny obsession with 9 yrs old girls.

Trying to run using the excuse of 'slang'? The Quran and hadiths don't utilise 'slang'. Somehow you are again obsessed with the slang 'nikah'.

Putting the 2 together. You seem to have an obsession with (1) 9 yrs old girls(2) 'slang' of nikahI think I understand why you , a 40 something adult is still not married. This is an unhealty obsession.

From you :'..I also find it funny that you compare woman to a ox that plows the TILTH, and at the same time your quran compares woman to that TILTH which you say is just a piece of property owned by the farmer..'

The said verse is a metaphor. Nothing is mentioned about property. You are again making things up. Typical shamonian , when cornered ... make things up. Are we in agreement that wife as 'a helper' per your bible if used in the said metaphor is just an ox. Is that how christians regard their wife in the biblical sense? Oops .... you are not married yet ... 40 odd yrs old adult.

From you :'..Is it permisible today for a grown Muslim man to mary and have sex with 9 year old girl?"..'

There you go , an obsession with 9 yrs old girls again. Hmmm , a pattern is developing ... not cool at all.

She was a wayward wife. You know very little about Islam and the rightly guided Imams. Yahya Snow is also leading people asray with his false version of Islam. It was the sunni who spread Islam by the sword. We Shia honor Imam Hussein (AS) on Ashura.

Racical Moderate's Dishonesty is at highest record. He was up in arms denying Delaware law of 7 year old sexual consent. He was defending his ignorance about the law, as if his life was on the stake. And then, he was forced to admit that "he might be wrong" ( confronted with the mountain of scholarly evidences), then what ? Did that make him change his position? NADA, NOTHING! Not an Inch. I have to give Nabbel Qureshi the credit in this matter, he stopped bringing this argument since I confronted him with the history of US Laws. At least Nabeel is smart enough to redraw his No Cross zone according to the arguments.What do you expect from a "Christian" who hates Muslim Doctors? Consistency? Radical Moderate is like a green peace activist who loves hunting wales.

Now I should stop discussing with a self proclaimed Christian who openly expressed his hatered for me.

"Racical Moderate's Dishonesty is at highest record. He was up in arms denying Delaware law of 7 year old sexual consent. He was defending his ignorance about the law, as if his life was on the stake. And then, he was forced to admit that "he might be wrong"

Wow talk about dellusional, when was I ever "FORCED" to admit that "I might be wrong".

I was mearly stating that if I am wrong I am willing to admit it. Harldy being forced to admit anything. Like I said to you before it's not that I'm always right its just that your always WRONG.

You then continue to listen to the voices in your head when you write....

"( confronted with the mountain of scholarly evidences), then what ? Did that make him change his position?"

The second is a Wiki Site and lists the age of consent for Delware at "The age of consent in Delaware is 18, but it is legal for teenagers aged 16 and 17 to engage in sexual intercourse as long as the older partner is younger than 30.

Title 11 § 761. Definitions generally applicable to sexual offences. (j) A child who has not yet reached his or her sixteenth birthday is deemed unable to consent to a sexual act with a person more than 4 years older than said child. Children who have not yet reached their twelfth birthday are deemed unable to consent to a sexual act under any circumstance"

The last website just repeats the same myth. This is a myth, and repeating that same MYTH does not make it true no matter how many times you repeat it.

The voices you hear really must shout at you becasue you then continue...

"I have to give Nabbel Qureshi the credit in this matter, he stopped bringing this argument since I confronted him with the history of US Laws. At least Nabeel is smart enough to redraw his No Cross zone according to the arguments."

Sure he did LOL.

And then finaly you conclude with ...

"What do you expect from a "Christian" who hates Muslim Doctors? Consistency? Radical Moderate is like a green peace activist who loves hunting wales.

Now I should stop discussing with a self proclaimed Christian who openly expressed his hatered for me."

YOUR A DOCTOR RTHFLO please man if your going to make jokes like that give some kind of warning. I almost ruined another monitor and keybord by spitting up the POP I was drinking because I laughing so hard.

Now when did I ever say I HATE muslim doctors. I have said I will never see one if I have a choice. And if you are a doctor you have provided all the reasons why I would never see one.

Putting the "Slave Revolt" which you have never admitted you were wrong on. To the side.

The fact that you would belive there could ever be a 9 YEAR OLD GIRL who was emotionaly and physicaly ready for sex you should have your doctor liscence pullled.

Tell me Dr 1milimeter, what would I find in the complete skeletal remains of a 9 year old from any time peroid that relates to sexual intercorse?????

WEll with that I think I'm done. you and Sam sure did a awful lot to typing to avoid mine and FMM questions. Right there that should tell you something.

I dont think your as perverted as your prophet, I hope you do not get a erection when you drive past elemetarty schools and see little 9 years un covered playing on the swings. But hey I could be wrong.

"Kah kah kah , an unhealthy obsession for 9 yrs old girls from a 40 odd yrs old adult , never married ,"

Again still no answer. I find it funny that you think I have never been married LOL. I will let you continue to think that since it has nothing to do with the fact that your religion allows you to be a sexualy deviant as you want to be, even having sex with CHILDREN.

"Of course Radical: The scholar I stated are not enough scholar because he disagrees with you."

LOL no I disagree with him bcasue he is WRONG. He only repeated the same myth that you are repeating. I will give you a example.

I don't know if you ever took a marketing class, but if you had you have obvioulsy heard the story of the CHEVY NOVA.

I mentioned this briefly in a reply to Sam1528.

THis story has been repeated in many college level texts books since the 1980's.

THe story goes that Chevy was at a loss when it came to car sales of its Chevy Nova, a sports car in latin and spanish countries. NO VA, if you tranlate it literaly means NO GO in Spanish.

Its a good story demonstrating the need to understand language and cultrue when marking a product. Only one small problem with it. ITS NOT TRUE.

Now this myth is repeated in "SCHOLARY" works however it does not make the myth true.

Just like you quoting a single "SCHOLAR" who makes a brief mention of the myth that Delaware had at one time a min age of consent of 7, with out any reference as to what article, section and title this law was under, when it was enacted, and more importatnly when it was changed and what is the name of the bill or act that changed it.

Anyway Doctor 1milimeter can you tell me what I would find in the skeletal remains of a 9 year old that is important for sexual intercorse?

from you :'..Again still no answer. I find it funny that you think I have never been married LOL. I will let you continue to think that since it has nothing to do with the fact that your religion allows you to be a sexualy deviant as you want to be, even having sex with CHILDREN.

Well you go molest your dirt, have fun with that..'

Ha ha , again and again you are trying your best to appear having less than average intelligence. Your obsession with 9 yrs old girls is .... hmmm amazing. We muslims explain with regards to 'baleegh' however you still pursue this line of argument with the 9 yrs old girl.

Oops , I know - I know , has this got to do with the morality of the bible? It being biblical isaac(40) married / consummate with biblical rebekah(3)? That is prepubescent ... not 'baleegh'. If you are bad , why try to drag others with you?

40 odd yrs old , never married , fantasy to get married with biblical marriage poems (previous posts) - what else can we expect?? Not 3 or 9 yrs old please. You can go to jail.

'..Yes I do have a obsession with 9 year old girls. That obession is to protect them from perverts like you.

Second I ingorned your Rashi interpretation of Issac and Rebeeca. So you take the interpritation of Rashi that same Rashi also says that Christ is not the Messiah, so I guess you beleve that too..'

Kah kah kah , looks like you are in denial of everything and anything. Most of us muslims here are married with families. We are not the ones who is obsessive trying to recite biblical marriage poems. We are not the ones who imagine sex with wives.

The problem with your imagination is that you are obsessed with 9 yrs old girls , I hope it doesn't go lower to 3 yrs old following the example of biblical isaac (40 yrs old) - haaaa , about the same age as you.

"The problem with your imagination is that you are obsessed with 9 yrs old girls , I hope it doesn't go lower to 3 yrs old following the example of biblical isaac (40 yrs old) - haaaa , about the same age as you.

I believe your buddies are already embarrassed with you."

Interesting, I am defending 9 year old girls from Muslims like you who want to have sex with them, and you think my friends are embaressed by me?????

I'm sure preventing Muslim men from marying and having sex with 9 year old girls is to a Muslim mind un healthy. But to civilized people it is a very healthy.

You also wrote...

"Most of us muslims here are married with families."

No you have a tilth a piece of dirt maybe a few pieces of dirt, but I wouldnt call that marriage by any definition.

BTW do you know that after your done with your dirt if you don't have any water to clean the filth off of you, you can use "CLEAN DIRT" or sand. So your woman are dirtier then dirt.

The funny thing is look at how much engergy you and your co horts have used to avoid answering a simple yes or no question.

you must really be ashamed and embarresed by what your prophet did.

Here is a inersting video on muslims being allowed to mary pre menstrating girls and have sex with them.

@Radical ModeratePeople in the Prophet's (peace be upon him) time were more mature than people of our time. The reason for this was because back then the lifestyle was harsher and as such people had more responsibilities to uphold, so they matured at an earlier age.

Age was never really taken into consideration. The Prophet's first wife was 15 years older than him when they got married, yet I never see anyone raising an objection to this.

You will probably be too scared to read , I will help you :'..واللائيand thoseلمDid notيحضنhave their periodsفعدتهنso their waiting timeثلاثةThreeأشهرMonths

So it is referring to those who do not have their period, it does not mention kids or young girls. As i said it is referring to those who have not had their period yet, or those after puberty who still have not had a menstruation cycle even after reaching age of puberty. To say it is referring to pre-pubescent girls is incorrect, whether it is you saying it or any writer of tafsir. It is simply inserting something into the text which is not there, making that which is plain and clear more confusing..'

In conclusion , shamonians in the like of you are just inserting your imagination to the text ... lewd imagination.

What we have so far(1) The bible gives an OK for prepubescent marriage (and sex) with the precedent example of biblical isaac(40) and biblical rebekeh(3)(2) Prophet Muhammad(saw) fulfilled the criteria of exe16:7-8 with regards of his marriage to Aishah(ra).

Now we have a shamonian in the form of radical moderate who is ashamed of his bible / christianity due to prepubescent marriage / consummation of marriage that he is trying to bluff his way to drag us muslims to the low moral standards of shamonian christians. Tsk tsk ... bad boy you are ... oops bad 40 yrs old adult never married with vivid imagination of having sex with wife (whom you regard as an ox) you are.

Is Surah 65:1-5 a Um AL Kitab verse or a Mutashabihat verse? Becasue if it is not a Um AL Kitab Verse then you have a disiese in your heart.

So Sheikh Sam1528 has issued his own tasfir on Surah 65:1-5. But that Tasfir is radicaly different then a few great Islamic scholars lets take at look

Al Jalalayn"The WAITING PERIOD FOR IMATURE...Is three months"

Ibn Abbas Another man asked "O Messenger of Allah What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are TO YOUNG."Answer their waiting period is three months.

Al Wahiti Asban Al NuzulKallad ibn a-Nun'man ibn Qays al-ansari said: "O Messenger of Allah what is the waiting period of woman who does not menstruate and the woman who has not menstruated YET?... And so Allah exalted is he reveled this verse…

Ubayy ibn Ka'b said: 'O Messenger of Allah, some woman of medina are saying there are other woman who have not been mentioned. He asked him "and who are they" He said: "Those who are to YOUNG….and so this verse …

IIbn Katthir

"The same for the YOUNG who have not reached the years of menstruation"

Some people said "there are still some woman whose 'Iddah has not been mentioned in the Quran there are the YOUNG….

Al Tabari…

"The same applies to the 'iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are TO YOUNG"

Modern day "Shaykh Muhammad ibn al Uthaymin.

"If a woman does not menstruate either because she is VERY YOUNG or old and past menopause, then her iddah is three months."

Iman Shaffi

...Woman who do not menstruate, because they have not yet ATTAINED PUBERTY…. Iddah for a woman who does not menstruate on account of minority of age… Their iddah is three months…

Maududi…

"They may not have menstrated as of yet because of YOUNG AGE….

Therefore, making mention of the waiting-peroid for the girls who have not yet menstruated, CLEARLY PROVES that it is not only permissible to givbe away the girl in marriage at this AGE but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate the marriage with her. NOW OBVIOULSY NO MUSLIMS HAS THE RIGHT TO FORBID A THING WHICH THE QURAN HAS HELD PERMISSIBLE."

Bukhari Volume 7 Book 62, Number 63

'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months…'

So Sheik Sam1528 you disagree with all these scholars and even Shiekd Bukari?

It is so easy to catch you lying. Tafseer Maududi and Ibn Kathir exposes your BS :

From you , maududi:'..They may not have menstrated as of yet because of YOUNG AGE….

Therefore, making mention of the waiting-peroid for the girls who have not yet menstruated, CLEARLY PROVES that it is not only permissible to givbe away the girl in marriage at this AGE but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate the marriage with her. NOW OBVIOULSY NO MUSLIMS HAS THE RIGHT TO FORBID A THING WHICH THE QURAN HAS HELD PERMISSIBLE."..'

How come you conveniently 'forgot' to complete the first paragraph? Lets continue on the first paragraph :'..or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced..'

Looks like its amenorrhea

From you , ibn kathir :'..The same for the YOUNG who have not reached the years of menstruation"

Some people said "there are still some woman whose 'Iddah has not been mentioned in the Quran there are the YOUNG….

Ibn Kathir :'..This is the meaning of His saying .. Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; and for those who have no courses..'ibn kathir

Again - 'no courses' or amenorrhea

We can then reconcile for the other tafseers. Of course the girls are deemed 'too young'. This is because of the criteria of 'buloogh' (earlier I mentioned 'baleegh'). I already elaborated the 2 criteria of puberty and physical / mental development. The lady don't display puberty they are deemed 'too young'. Again a case of amenorrhea as puberty has been the benchmark not a numerical age.

You need to use a bit of your brains (or whats left of it). Prophet Muhammad(saw) consummated his marriage with Aishah(ra) when she attained puberty , more accurately 'buloogh'. The behaviour of Prophet is in accordance to the Quran. Therefore Quran65:4 addresses menopause and amenorrhea.

By the way , this issue has been addressed in this blog last year in october.

Again - don't drag us muslims into the cesspool of prepubescent marriage and consummation of marriage. That is only reserved for christians following biblical isaac (40 yrs old) marrying and consummating the marriage with biblical rebekah (3 yrs old). The morality in your bible .... kah kah kah .....

I'm going to demonstrate your deception by a simple bit of psedo code. I'm sure you took some kind of basic computer programing in highschool so you understand the if statement. If not I will make it code neutral so you can follow along.

That is only reserved for christians following biblical isaac (40 yrs old) marrying and consummating the marriage with biblical rebekah (3 yrs old). The morality in your bible .... kah kah kah .....

I say,

could you please point me to the passage in the Bible that says that Rebecca was three years old?

When you can't find it will you apoligize for misrepersenting God's word?

In the mean time for the sake of argument lets grant you math. Just because someone in the Bible did something does not in any way imply a moral standard.

When the Bible records David’s relationship with Bathsheba do you actually think it is condoning adultery? When the Bible records Peter denial of Jesus do you actually think it is saying that it is OK to deny Jesus?

You say,

Where in the bible that states consummation of marriage to a 9 yrs old lady who has attained puberty is morally wrong - according to biblical jesus law and his spirit? If there is none , you are making things up.

I say,

Why do I feel like I’m always repeating myself with you?

The Bible never explicitly says don’t shoot someone in the head for fun.

The prohibition against murder covers things like that for anyone who is not looking to twist God’s words like the serpent.

In the same way the Bible never explicitly says not to marry a nine year old Arab girl. But the charge not to marry unless “they are unable to exercise self control” pretty much guarantees that a 9 year old won’t be getting married.

Why is it that Muslims always are always coming up with demands for God to say exactly X before they will submit to him?

When you do this sort of thing you try and make yourself the master and God the servant.

Just a FYI, Sam is using Rashi's comentary, he is the only one who comes to that conclusion, there are rabinical jews who beleive Rashi there are others who do not.

The real problem for Sam using Rashi, is that Rashi argued extensivly agains Christ, as either the Jewish messiah, and his divinity.

Rashi was also the one who publisized the interpritation of Isiaah 52 and 53 as refering to the nation of Israel.

So Sheik Sam1528 is in a bind, since he beleives that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, and I doubt he believes that there is no deciet in Israel, and that Israel has done no violence and that Palastinians are being healed by Israel.

But what do you expect from a person who can read,

"They may not have menstrated as of yet because of YOUNG AGE, OR delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case."

That some how all three cases are refering to the rare condition of amenorrhea and not the correct understanding that the condition of amenorrhea is included with the other two conditoins that being becasue of YOUNG AGE, or becasue there menstral cylce is delayed.

So Maududi is saying as he writes Becasue of YOUNG AGE, OR this, .... OR that..... OR the other thing....'

Why can't the context be 'young age' OR 'delayed menstrual cycle / no menses' , ie. young age meaning having delayed menstrual cycle / no menses per the criteria of 'buloogh'? Has there been any numerical age proposed? Yes or no?

From you :'..So a woman of 40 years of age who suffers from amenorrhea is deemed to YOUNG? LOL.

I can not believe you came up with that. Its sad really sad.

I also noticed you conviently did not addressThe Two Jal's AL JalalaynIbn Abass,Al WahitiIbn Ka'bAl Tabari,ANd BUKAHARI..'

Ha ha , you seems to have left behind your common sense. Didn't I mention the criteira for 'buloogh' are(1) puberty(2) mentally and physically capable for sexual intercourseA lady with amenorrhea will in time exihibit #2 , which fulfill the criteria of 'buloogh'. Can you think logically??

I thought I addressed the other tafseers. It can be reconciled by the criteria of 'buloogh' and the precedent of Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra). What is soo difficult? Why are asking for something that has been addressed? Challenge me.

Ha ha , again and again I am saying. Do not drag us muslims into the cesspool of prepubescent marriage (and consummation of marriage) as per biblical isaac(40) and biblical rebekah(3). Only christians do that as it is firmly enshrined in your bible. If your set of moral standards is low (per your bible) , don't drag others.

from you :'..I'm going to demonstrate your deception by a simple bit of psedo code. I'm sure you took some kind of basic computer programing in highschool so you understand the if statement..'

Ha ha , I am not going to get involved with this red herrings and side stepping of issues. This is a common tactic of yours to deviate from the onhand issue as you are now hard pressed for answers.

You need to address your lie that has been exposed. We muslims have been explaining about 'buloogh' and all the tafseers talk about 'buloogh' not numerical ages. In addition Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) sets the precedence of 'buloogh'.

The best part , you cannot provide any meaningful rebuttal to the low morals of the bible with biblical isaac(40) marrying (and consummating the marriage) with biblical rebekah(3). All you can do is denying anything and everything. This is soooo poor.

"Why can't the context be 'young age' OR 'delayed menstrual cycle / no menses' , ie. young age meaning having delayed menstrual cycle / no menses per the criteria of 'buloogh'? Has there been any numerical age proposed? Yes or no?"

I guess language has no meaning to you.

No there has been no numerical age mention just one who is to young to have menstrated OR one who's menstration has been delayed or one whos will never have a menstration.

So if your bizar twisted, meaningless understanding is correct then it also means that one who is "YOUNG" is also one who will never menstrate. So that means that a woman of say 40 years old who has never menstrated is considered "YOUNG".

Well to be honest, I guess its a good thing you have to defy the laws of language, logic and common sense to get to come to your conclusion.

Its good because it says that you are repulsed by the idea that your allah permits sex with pre mentrating woman that you have to look stoooopid to deny it.

from you :'..could you please point me to the passage in the Bible that says that Rebecca was three years old?

When you can't find it will you apoligize for misrepersenting God's word?..'

I have already provided the calculations and the relevant verses. Did you look up the post? TQ again , if such is regarded as god's word , your religion has very low moral standard as biblical isaac(40) married (and consummate) his marriage with biblical rebekah(3). Yet you folks are up in arms with Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) when eze16:7-8 confirm that the marriage is ok. You christians have a big problem with consistency.

From you :'..Just because someone in the Bible did something does not in any way imply a moral standard..'

Anywhere in the bible that states the marriage between biblical isaac(40) and biblical rebekah(3) is wrong? Don't think so. If none , following your criteria of prepubescent marriage (and consummation of marriage) , the bible has inconsistent and low moral standards. This reflects in you christians questioning Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) (which is ok by exe16:7-8) but it is ok for you when biblical isaac(40) married (and consummated the marriage) with biblical rebekah(3).

From you :'..n the same way the Bible never explicitly says not to marry a nine year old Arab girl. But the charge not to marry unless “they are unable to exercise self control” pretty much guarantees that a 9 year old won’t be getting married..'

Nobody addresses the numerical age. That is why Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not live as husband and wife with Aishah(ra) when he married her until she attained puberty. That has the support of exe16:7-8 ... p-u-b-e-r-t-y. However in the bible , the calculated age of biblical rebekah was 3 yrs old when biblical isaac(40) married her. This is evidence of the low moral standard of the bible. However christians are ok with it but not Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) which has the blessings of exe16:7-8. Inconsistency again.

From you :'..Why is it that Muslims always are always coming up with demands for God to say exactly X before they will submit to him?.''

Muslims are not demanding anything except consistency from you christians. Your god has already stated that biblical isaac(40) married (and consummate the marriage) with biblical rebekah(3). Eze16:7-8 states that the marriage between Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishah(ra) is ok. However christians in their warped minds force themselves to think that the marriage of Prophet Muhammad(saw) with Aishah(ra) was wrong and the marriage (and consummation of marriage) between biblical isaac(40) and biblical rebekah(3) was right. Looks like the actual serpent are christians who have this natural instinct to twist their own bible.

Can you explain your lying with regards to maududi's and ibn kathir tafseer?

from you :'..I guess language has no meaning to you.

No there has been no numerical age mention just one who is to young to have menstrated OR one who's menstration has been delayed or one whos will never have a menstration..'

Looks like the problem is you not us muslims. The criteria has always been 'buloogh'. Again I ask , why can't 'young age' in that context be related to 'buloogh'? Ha ha , you have been caught square and now you are arguing on a literal sense rather than context of the passage. This is sooo poor.

from you :'..So if your bizar twisted, meaningless understanding is correct then it also means that one who is "YOUNG" is also one who will never menstrate. So that means that a woman of say 40 years old who has never menstrated is considered "YOUNG"..'

Again and again you seem not to be able to use your brains to think logically. I have already provided the 2 criteria for 'buloogh'. If amenorrhea , the second criteria of being mentally / physically ready is to be used. This is simple logical thinking. Do you employ logic?? Not so by your response.

from you :'..Its good because it says that you are repulsed by the idea that your allah permits sex with pre mentrating woman that you have to look stoooopid to deny it..'

Ha ha , TQ again , you try your best to appear having less than average intelligence. We apply the criteria of 'buloogh' , Quran65:4 is about menopouse and amenorrhea.

Hmm , what about the christian low morals of the marriage (and consummation of marriage) between biblical isaac(4) and biblical rebekah(3). Isn't this pedophilia? Ha ha , you are soooo scared to address this issue. Denial is all you are good for.

Again , do not drag us muslims into the cesspool of prepubescent marriage per the biblical values of biblical isaac(40) marrying (and consummating the marriage) with biblical rebekah(3)

from you :'..Yeah simple logic is side steping the issue for Sheik Sam1528..'

The very least I address the issue and not revert to red herrings and side stepping the issues like you. You in doing such is evidence that you have been caught with your pants down (ie. caught lying).

Like I said I guess it is a good thing becasue it does say you do have somewhat of a moral compas that does not point to Mohamed.

I don't know what else to tell you, you refuse to think, you refuse to accept simple logic, you just deny deny and deny. WEll you will deny your self all the way into hell. Something I really do not want to see.

How you can come to the conclusion that the tasfir means 'the young becasue they have delayed menstaration" when it actually says "The young, OR those who's menstrations are deleayed." is beyond me.

What is stated is THREE CONDITIONS, if any one of those conditions is true then the IDDAH is three months.

It is not saying that Condition one and condition two and condition three are the SAME CONDITION.

If thats the case then a woman of 40 who has never menstrated is " YOUNG".

WEll I think I'm done here, I will only continue if you read the psedo code and answer the question what will be printed.

from you :'..Like I said I guess it is a good thing becasue it does say you do have somewhat of a moral compas that does not point to Mohamed.

I don't know what else to tell you, you refuse to think, you refuse to accept simple logic, you just deny deny and deny. WEll you will deny your self all the way into hell. Something I really do not want to see..'

You are arguing for the a sake of arguing. You have been provided explanation of 2 issues(1) 'buloogh'(2) Precedent of Prophet Muhammade(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) when she attained puberty or more accurately 'buloogh'.

We argue on the context but you insist on literalism as it fits your argument. This is extremely poor. You claim Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishsh(ra) is wrong but eze16:7-8 states that it is ok. However you see no issues with biblical isaac(40) marrying and consummating the marriage with biblical rebekah(3). You are all twisted up and worst of all you twist your own bible for your arguments. This is extremely dishonest.

from you :'..What is stated is THREE CONDITIONS, if any one of those conditions is true then the IDDAH is three months.

It is not saying that Condition one and condition two and condition three are the SAME CONDITION.

If thats the case then a woman of 40 who has never menstrated is " YOUNG"..'

Now you are talking about the conditions in Quran64:4. I have already posted the explanation to such. I reproduce it again :Quran65:4 for islamophobes

Again and again you insist on not using your brains and logic. The criteria for 'buloogh' has been provided. If the lady has amenorrhea , at one stage she will mature mentally and physically. That fulfill the criteria of mental and physical development. Why are you blabbering about a 40 yrs old lady with amenorrhea considered 'young'??

from you :'..WEll I think I'm done here, I will only continue if you read the psedo code and answer the question what will be printed..'

TQ , it couldn't come sooner. Don't you get tired arguing without using your brains and logic? Looks like an argument to you is (1) denying anything and everything(2) who shouts the loudestYou are already 40 odd yrs old (and never married) ... its about time you act your age. Yes??

FMM, yeah I am disgusted as well, to be honest I get physically ill at times delving into that depravity.

But I keep reminding myself that everytime someone like Sam1528 denies what is clearly being taught and PRACTICED. He is doing it because he is ashamed, and the thought is just as repulsive and disgustin to him as it is to us.

The thing that is most frustrating as I'm sure you noticed is his total disregard for language and the meaning of words. Its like he makes up his own definitions for the simple word OR. But I will try one more time, becasue like I said I think there some decency burried deep under the layers of denial and willfull deception.

from you :'..The problem is none of the verses you mention say anything about Rebeacca's age at marrage and your calculation is entirely based on somthing that the Bible never says. i.e. the date of her birth..'

Where in the bible that even state the date of birth of biblical isaac?? You are making up arguments as you go along. I want you challenge me on the calculations. No where in the bible that states , a length of time passed between birth of biblical rebekah and death of biblical sarah. I thought you need to let the bible speak for itself.

from you :'..As far as I can tell your sourse just made that up out of whole cloth.

That is why I asked you for your evidence. If you are going to claim that the Bible says somthing you need to be able to back it up..'

Did you check verses gen22:23 and 23:1?? Any mention of a length of time passed between the birth of biblical rebekah and death of biblical sarah?? Can you now show me as evidence from the bible that biblical rebekah has aged by the time biblical sarah died??

from you :'..So now you are demanding the Bible condem somthing it never says happened ..'

The calculation from the relevant verses confirms that biblical isaac(40) married biblical rebekah(3). Since you claim otherwise , you need to provide your proof. Just claiming it did not happen is not good enough. Any tom , dick and harry can do that.

'..If the Bible does not explicitly condem an event that did not happen then it has low moral standards..'

Now you are playing ignorant. According to your high priest of shamonian , eze16:7-8 states that the minimum age for a girl to get married (and consummation of marriage) is at puberty. Unless biblical rebekah at 3yrs old has attained puberty , this shows that biblical isaac , a prominent figure in your bible has morality problems. This is an example of low morality in your bible as it does not condemn the said marriage.

However you guys are up in arms with Prophet Muhammad(saw) consummation of marriage to Aishah(ra) after she attained puberty. However such fulfills the criteria of eze16:7-8.

from you :'..It is also my understanding that Madudi puts for three examples as to who it is that 'have not menstrated'

1. The Young (Pre Pubesent)2. Those who's menstration is delayed.3. Those who suffer from a disiese and will never menstrate..'

You cannot prove prepubescent marriage in the actual verse of Quran65:4 you run to the tafseers.

The sahih international version states ;'..those who have not menstruated..' - does not say prepubescent.

However you conveniently omit the point that Aishah(ra) attained 'buloogh' when they consummated their marriage.

Karen Armstrong commented on this issue :'..Now if a marriage could be consummated at any age with a girl or prior to puberty, then certainly the prophet, peace be upon him, would have consummated his marriage with Aicha when she was six. However he never did this for a reason, he waited untill she reached puberty. From this we can already see, that girls priot to puberty are not allowed to consummate marriage. But what about the ayah which says ‘and the waiting period for those who have no courses yet is three months’ ? Like we have seen in the heading of the chapter of sahih bukhari is that girls prior to menstruation can marry, which is by some writers described as ‘prior to buloogh’ or ‘underage’since menstruation is general considered as having reached buloogh. However this does not mean that girls can consummate marriage before pubery, which some people think. ***** (hilighting by me)This confusion occurs because some writers used the terms ‘prior to buloogh’ or ‘underage’ as a reference or synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’ since menstruation is the well known aspect which shows that a girl has reached puberty / majority.******However in islam a girl has also reached puberty / majority when she had her first wet dream, or has already public hair, breasts or reached the age of 15 years. These facts can be found in Ibn Kathirs famous tafsir on soerah 4..'( Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157 )

That is why I stated that the 'young' in the tafseers can be reconciled. The confusion arises as the tafseer writers uses synonyms and interchange between 'buloogh' and 'menstruation / puberty'. It has already been explained that 'buloogh' has 2 criterias to be fulfilled before the girl can be considered an adult ready for sexual intercourse.

The context is always 'buloogh'. If you refer to maududi's tafseer , try substituting 'menstruated' with 'buloogh' - it certainly means 'not developed mentally and physically'. This interchanging causes confusion only to the uninformed. This is what you are exploiting for your absurd argument.

What is extremely disappointing here is that you don't have a thought process to look at the evidence as(1) Prophet Muhammad(saw) consummation of marriage to Aishah(ra) sets the lower limit , it being 'buloogh'(2) All scholars are unanimous in the ruling prohibiting sexual intercourse with wives who has not attained 'buloogh'. Marriage is divided into 2 (a) the contract(b) consummation

You need to start using your brains and look at the evidence. Looks like you are just interested to throw dung and see whether it sticks. The same can be done on christianity.

That is why scholar Yasir Qadi stated that in order to discuss the marriage of Aishah(ra) , the counterparty needs to have a bit of intelligence - which you have none

Thank you for responding however you did not answer my two questions. I just want to make sure we are on the same page.

Could you please just answer yes or know on this.

Mahdudi is explaing who it is who have not menstrated. The portion of his text that is sited is not dealing with Menapausal woman, or woman who are pregnent or woman who are mentrating.

Can we agree on that yes or no?

It is also my understanding that Madudi puts for three examples as to who it is that 'have not menstrated'

1. The Young (Pre Pubesent)2. Those who's menstration is delayed.3. Those who suffer from a disiese and will never menstrate.

Can we agree on that yes or no?

You accuse me of of

"You cannot prove prepubescent marriage in the actual verse of Quran65:4 you run to the tafseers."

I am told again and again and again by Muslims that you need to go to the "SCHOLARS" and their tasfirs to understand the Quran.

But be that as it may you are the one who runs to Karen Armstrong, a KUFFAR to explain your quran. Scratch head on that one.

So you accept Karren Armstrongs Tasfir,

"However in islam a girl has also reached puberty / majority when she had her first wet dream, or has already public hair, breasts or reached the age of 15"

So I want to be clear, are you saying that a girl is marrying age and ready for sex when she has her first "WET DREAM" or when she has her first period?"(I accept that girl is of marring age at 15 so no need to ponticate on that.) WHat is in dipute is the first wet dream or first period.

One more question can you give me the definition of this word "buloogh" again.

Sarah lived 127 years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. (Genesis 23:1)

End quote:

No mention at all of the the birth of Rebecca in relation to the death of Sarah

You could have checked these out in a about 10 seconds? Yet you did not why?

You said,

Can you now show me as evidence from the bible that biblical rebekah has aged by the time biblical sarah died??

I say,

There is no mention at all of the age of Rebecca in relation to Sarah. None zip zero nada

Your source just made it up

You say,

The calculation from the relevant verses confirms that biblical isaac(40) married biblical rebekah(3). Since you claim otherwise , you need to provide your proof. Just claiming it did not happen is not good enough. Any tom , dick and harry can do that.

I say,

What are you talking about? Where does the Bible say anything about the ages of Isaac and Rebecca at the time of their marriage?

you make a claim that the bible says something you need to be able to point me to where it says that.

I could claim that the Quran said that Jesus is God but no one would care unless I provided a reference.

You say,

According to your high priest of shamonian , eze16:7-8 states that the minimum age for a girl to get married (and consummation of marriage) is at puberty.

I say,

Now that is totally uncalled for

I have never quoted or even mentioned “shaminion”

My High priest is Jesus Christ.

I know this is a difficult subject for you but do you honestly think accusing me of this sort of heresy with out a shred of evidence is going to help your case.

If you are trying to show that your religion promotes high moral standards it’s probably not a good idea to dishonestly throw out ad homenum attacks.

Sarah lived 127 years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. (Genesis 23:1)

End quote:

No mention at all of the the birth of Rebecca in relation to the death of Sarah

You could have checked these out in a about 10 seconds? Yet you did not why?

You said,

Can you now show me as evidence from the bible that biblical rebekah has aged by the time biblical sarah died??

I say,

There is no mention at all of the age of Rebecca in relation to Sarah. None zip zero nada

Your source just made it up

You say,

The calculation from the relevant verses confirms that biblical isaac(40) married biblical rebekah(3). Since you claim otherwise , you need to provide your proof. Just claiming it did not happen is not good enough. Any tom , dick and harry can do that.

I say,

What are you talking about? Where does the Bible say anything about the ages of Isaac and Rebecca at the time of their marriage?

you make a claim that the bible says something you need to be able to point me to where it says that.

I could claim that the Quran said that Jesus is God but no one would care unless I provided a reference.

You say,

According to your high priest of shamonian , eze16:7-8 states that the minimum age for a girl to get married (and consummation of marriage) is at puberty.

I say,

Now that is totally uncalled for

I have never quoted or even mentioned “shaminion”

My High priest is Jesus Christ.

I know this is a difficult subject for you but do you honestly think accusing me of this sort of heresy with out a shred of evidence is going to help your case.

If you are trying to show that your religion promotes high moral standards it’s probably not a good idea to dishonestly throw out ad homenum attacks.

Like scholar Yasir Qadhi stated , you need a bit of intelligence to understand Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishsh(ra). Too bad you have none.

Why are you repeating the same questions but not challenging me? Looks like this is all you are good for.

from you :'..t is also my understanding that Madudi puts for three examples as to who it is that 'have not menstrated'

1. The Young (Pre Pubesent)2. Those who's menstration is delayed.3. Those who suffer from a disiese and will never menstrate..'

I thought I have already stated that 'menstruation / puberty / young' has been freely interchanged or used as synonyms for 'buloogh'. Substituting 'buloogh' with 'the young' (bearing in mind the 2 criterias) the conditions become(1) not developed mentally and physically(2) whose menstruation is delayed (3) those who suffer from no menstruation

It is exactly the criteria of 'buloogh'.

from you :'..But be that as it may you are the one who runs to Karen Armstrong, a KUFFAR to explain your quran. Scratch head on that ..'

You are arguing from less than average intelligence again. Karen Armstrong is explaining to people like you the confusion that may arise as the islamic scholars interchange 'buloogh' with 'menstruation / young'. There is no english word for 'buloogh' therefore we need to make do bearing in mind the intended meaning.

Karen Armstrong did not provide any tafseer. She is citing the obvious .... you missed it anyway. Huh?? Wet dreams and first period?? Don't you ever use your brains to think?

Why are you asking me the definition of 'buloogh' again? I think I have just wasted my time on you.

I thought I have already stated that 'menstruation / puberty / young' has been freely interchanged or used as synonyms for 'buloogh'. Substituting 'buloogh' with 'the young' (bearing in mind the 2 criterias) the conditions become(1) not developed mentally and physically"

So if a woman is Buloogh becasue she is "(1) not developed mentally and physically"

gen17:17-19 = biblical isaac was born when biblical sarah was 90 yrs old

Calculations :(a) time biblical sarah died = biblical isaac being 37 yrs old (127 - 90)(b) time biblical sarah died , biblical rebekah was born(c) biblical isaac married biblical rebekah when he was 40 yrs old(c) age of biblical rebekah when biblical isaac married her = 40 - 37 = 3 yrs old

Can you address the calculations instead of denying anything and everything?

From you :'..Now that is totally uncalled for

I have never quoted or even mentioned “shaminion”

My High priest is Jesus Christ.

I know this is a difficult subject for you but do you honestly think accusing me of this sort of heresy with out a shred of evidence is going to help your case.

If you are trying to show that your religion promotes high moral standards it’s probably not a good idea to dishonestly throw out ad homenum attacks..'

It is uncalled for (1) calling you folks shamonians?or(2) claiming the consummation of marriage between Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishah(ra) has the approval of eze16:7-8?

I want you to challenge my calculations regarding the ages of biblical isaac / rebekah upon their marriage. You also need to address eze16:7-8 in relation to Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishah(ra).

It is not a difficult subject for us muslims. We have provided the evidence that you christians are inconsistent and having double standards when it comes to Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishah(ra).

Looks like you are willing to twist your own bible to extricate yourself from this mess of low morality in the bible.

ok my bad , I should be a bit more careful explaining things especially to you. I also made a mistake in the 'not developed ..'

Maududi's tafseer :'..They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case..'

Therefore the context of the tafseer is attaining 'buloogh (ie. mentally / physically developed)' - or loosely puberty ; (1) prior to menses(1) delayed menses(2) do not have menses

Again (a) and (b) is subjective. A person can be developed mentally / physically for sexual intercourse but delayed menses. However it doesn't mean the said person has not reached 'buloogh' (or loosely puberty)

Menses is generally a sign of 'buloogh' (or loosely puberty) but it is not the only sign.

Therefore the word 'young' in the tafseer means - has attained 'buloogh' (or loosely puberty) but prior to menses. It doesn't mean prepubescent.

Genesis 20:20-24 is a record of the sons of Milcah it makes no mention of when the twelve births listed happened.

Abraham was made aware that he had nieces a nephews after his experience with Isaac on the mountain. I believe we are told this at this point in the narrative because serves to emphasize the faith that he had in God by being willing to sacrifice his only son.

The mention of Rebecca in the list is only parenthetical it modifies Bethuel.

from you :'..Abraham was made aware that he had nieces a nephews after his experience with Isaac on the mountain. I believe we are told this at this point in the narrative because serves to emphasize the faith that he had in God by being willing to sacrifice his only son.

The mention of Rebecca in the list is only parenthetical it modifies Bethuel..'

In other words ... you are in denial of anything and everything. I don't know about you , if biblical bethuel fathers biblical rebekah means that she was born being his daughter. I told you already , christians in bringing up the issue of Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishsh(ra) - which is ok by eze16:7-8 is opening a can of worms for christianity and the bible. It is not a difficult topic for us muslims but an extremely difficult one for christians.

Can you now challenge the calculations based on the verses provided.

from you :'..The calculations are not grounded in anything. It would be like saying 9 minus 7 equals 2 and that proves that Rebecca was two..'

Your evasion is noted. You just deny and ignore the relevant verses that confirms the age of biblical rebekah when she got married. In that case I can also say we don't know the age of Aishah(ra) as we do not know of her birth date. You need to start being intellectually honest.

from you :'..If you want to have a discussion on a what Ezekiel says it would be a good idea not to begin by insulting me and accusing me of rank heresy with out grounds..'

Can you start by providing counsel to your brother in christ - radical moderate. Charity begins at home. Again and again .... inconsistency and double standards from you.

The best part .... we need to know the birth date. Therefore Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) according to you is ok as we don't know of her birth date.

See how easy it is to have a discussion once the needling stops. Can you from now onwards accord the proper netiquette?? You will get along better with the folks here. Stop mimicking woods and shamoun. You need to be yourself.

from you :'..Why is (a) and (b) subjective why not A, B, and C?

You are coming to a conclusion that is not based on the laws of language and reason..'

It is subjective because we don't know when the menses will start due to it being delayed. Its the body's biological clock , not governed by laws of reason nor language.

from you :'..Reflecting on what you wrote so far I am under the impression that your saying that a "Young" girl could be mature enough for sex mentaly and physicaly even though they have not entered puberty?..'

Puberty is a loose term but the closest that describes 'buloogh'. The 2 criteria(1) developed mentally and physically(2) menses

Culturally in any society , if the girl has not got her menses - young girl. However with delayed or no menses - even though she has developed mentally and physically the stigma of 'young girl' remains as no menses. That is about it. Menses is not a complete sign of 'buloogh' (or loosely puberty). The girl needs to be mentally and physically developed.

That is why the 2 overlapping conditions per maududi's tafseer- prior to menses- delayed menses

Puberty is a loose term but the closest that describes 'buloogh'. The 2 criteria(1) developed mentally and physically(2) menses

I think I'm understanding what you are saying now. So when a young girl enters 'Buloogh' which is loosly translated as puberty she is ready for sex. But Buloogh has two criteria.

1) developed mentally and physicaly 2) menses.

So a girl can enter Buloogh and be ready for sexual intercorse with out having her menses?

Is that correct understanding?

You also wrote...

"Culturally in any society , if the girl has not got her menses - young girl. However with delayed or no menses - even though she has developed mentally and physically the stigma of 'young girl' remains as no menses."

If that is the case, then a woman who has never had a period due to some medical condition would always be "Stigmatized" as young girl even if she is in her 40's?

So a girl can enter Buloogh and be ready for sexual intercorse with out having her menses?..'

I mentioned earlier that a percentage , how small , will have delayed or no menses. Therefore When the girl has matured mentally / physically she has attained 'buloogh'. Puberty is a loose term describing 'buloogh'. Definition of puberty is menses. It does not incorporate amenorrhea. We need to cater for people in the group of delayed / no menses.

from you :'..If that is the case, then a woman who has never had a period due to some medical condition would always be "Stigmatized" as young girl even if she is in her 40's?..'

This is where you need to utilise your intelligence. A female without menses when hit adolescence will be considered an adult. Nobody announce her menses problems in public. 'Buloogh' overcome this issue as a mentally / physically developed person will be considered an adult.

Adolescence is just a term coined up about ~120 yrs ago. To be precise its either 'prebuloogh' or 'buloogh'. That is why teen sex is prevalent in the US / Europe because 'adolescence' has no meaning - the persons are already matured mentally and physically. Instead of stopping it nowadays safe sex is preached in such places.

"I mentioned earlier that a percentage , how small , will have delayed or no menses. Therefore When the girl has matured mentally / physically she has attained 'buloogh'. Puberty is a loose term describing 'buloogh'. Definition of puberty is menses. It does not incorporate amenorrhea. We need to cater for people in the group of delayed / no menses."

I don't know where your getting your definitions, but puberty is not menses, it one of the stages in puberty it does not signal the begging or the end of puberty. But be that as it may.

I am wondering where you are getting this "Buloogh" from? Do you have a scholar that defines this?

You then go on, and I have to say I'm a little disapointed in this, you broke down and went back to your ad hom and projection.

You wrote...

"This is where you need to utilise your intelligence. A female without menses when hit adolescence will be considered an adult. Nobody announce her menses problems in public. 'Buloogh' overcome this issue as a mentally / physically developed person will be considered an adult."

I'm just going by what you wrote earlier, you wrote that....

"Culturally in any society , if the girl has not got her menses - young girl. However with delayed or no menses - even though she has developed mentally and physically the stigma of 'young girl' remains as no menses."

So if you were being conistent then a woman of 40 who has never had her menses will in your words have "the stigma of 'young girl' remains as no menses."

You seem to be bouncing around between definitions and terms.

On the one hand you say this word "Boloogh" loosly means puberty. Then you say that menses is puberty.

I'm really trying to understand your position. Maybe it would help if you can do the following.

FirstWhat makes a girl mature enough to have sex physicaly and mentaly?

SecondWhere do you get this word Boloogh from do you have any Islamic scholary work to beack it up?

Let me try to explain the dificulty in understanding your position by pointing out where we seem to agree and where we disagree.

First the Tasfir of Madoodi is defining when there is a need for IDDAH (waiting period before divorce in a marriage that has been consumated) not at what age it is permisable for a girl to be married.

Do you agree with that?

Second in the exerpt I posted from the Tasfir, Madoodi is explaing what it means when the Quran says "and [also for] those who have not menstruated." in Q 65:4.

Are we agreed on that yes or no?

Madoodi explains this in MY UNDERSTANDING that this refers to three types of females.

1. Those that are to Young to Menstrate.

2. Those whose menstration is delayed.

3. Those who suffer from a disiese and will never menstrate.

Again this is my understanding as to what Madoodi is saying when he writes.

"(1)They may not have menstrated as of yet because of YOUNG AGE or (2) delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women , (3) or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case.."

Again my understaind is that each of these cases do to the OR statement are seperate, if any one of them is true then the IDDAH period is 3 Months.

That is where I believe we disagree and please correct me if I am wrong on this.

Your understanding is that Madoodi is actualy saying this...

"(1a)They may not have menstrated as of yet because of YOUNG AGE becasue of (1b) delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women , (3) or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case.."

It seems you are using case 2 in my understanding or case 1b in your understanding to explain what it means in case 1 (in my understanding) or case 1a (in your understanding) to be "To Young".

In other words...

So it seems that your understanding is that Madodi is saying that if a female is "TO YOUNG" to have yet mentrated it is becasue her menstration is delayed.

It is also your position that just becasue a female has not yet menstrated it does not meen they are imature and not ready to have sexual intercorse it just means that there menstration has been delayed.

Is that a acurate representation your understanding of Madoodi's explanition of Q65:4?

from you :'..I don't know where your getting your definitions, but puberty is not menses, it one of the stages in puberty it does not signal the begging or the end of puberty. But be that as it may..'

description of puberty'..Puberty is the period of human development during which physical growth and sexual maturation occurs.Beginning as early as age eight in girlsfirst sign of puberty occurs on average at age 11 in girls, with menstruation..'pubertyIsn't menses a sign or meaning of puberty?

from you :'..So if you were being conistent then a woman of 40 who has never had her menses will in your words have "the stigma of 'young girl' remains as no menses."..'

If the female has developed mentally and physically but no menses and already passed an upper limit age for menses , why the young girl? You are just trying your best to twist your argument. What is the use in all this? This is why I stated you need intelligence ... you get upset.

From you :'..FirstWhat makes a girl mature enough to have sex physicaly and mentaly?

SecondWhere do you get this word Boloogh from do you have any Islamic scholary work to beack it up?..'

I would rather you go back to the previous posts and understand it. You are repeating yourself hoping for a different answer.

Looks like your intention is trying to prove that Quran65:4 means prepubescent. That is why you are twisting and turning to try to force prepubescent in the said verse thru the tafseers. Is this an accurate description of your intention?

from you :'.."(1)They may not have menstrated as of yet because of YOUNG AGE or (2) delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women , (3) or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case.."..'

The question now :- How far delay is the delay? If the female has developed mentally and physically still no menses , where is the issue? Why is 'young age' such a big deal to you?

- There is a upper age limit where the female is supposed to already have menses. Why can't 'delayed menses' be measured from that age till menses?

What you are trying to do is simple :You are trying to force the issue that Quran65:4 means prepubescent girls. Your problem is that nowhere in that verse states of prepubescent girls only 'no menses'. To assist you in your 'witch hunt' you turn to the tafseer and .... 'hooray' there is the word of 'too Young' ... to you this means prepubescent - Ignoring the ruling prohibiting sexual intercourse with prepubescent or trying to hilight a contradiction.

Like I stated - how far delay is the menses for the 'too young'? Mentally and physically developed with no menses can be 'too young'- delayed menses can be objectively looked into as the time extended from the upper limit age for which menses should have started until they get their menses.

One more thing -why can't we have a 2 way discussion?(1) You asking about Quran65:4(2) Me asking about prepubescent marriage between biblical isaac(40) and biblical rebekah(3) - issue of low morality in the bible. You can continue from 'first monarchy man'.

"Looks like your intention is trying to prove that Quran65:4 means prepubescent. That is why you are twisting and turning to try to force prepubescent in the said verse thru the tafseers. Is this an accurate description of your intention?"

While I am saying that the quran means pre developed when it refers to those who have not mesntrated,

I am not twisting turning on anything. THe only one who has been twisting and turning is you. So no that is not a accurate represntation of my intention.

Let me just ask you, all this equivcating your doing re defining terms, bouncing back between those terms that you redefined.

Let me ask you.If my understanding of the plain reading of the text both the Quran and the Tasfir of Madoodi. Whith out inserting words you leanred from the tasifr of Karren Armstrong, or changing the meaning of the word OR, would you have a problem with it?

I mean really if it turned out that Moahmed had sex with Aisha before she was fully developed. Would it matter to you?

2) Me asking about prepubescent marriage between biblical isaac(40) and biblical rebekah(3) - issue of low morality in the bible. You can continue from 'first monarchy man'.

I believe FMM has already answered you on that but let me be 100 percent clear on that. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. THAT IS A RASHI INTERPREATION. I DO NOT ACCEPT RASHI and NIETHER SHOULD YOU SINCEHE DENYS THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH.

From you :'..I am not twisting turning on anything. THe only one who has been twisting and turning is you. So no that is not a accurate represntation of my intention..'

Who is twisting? I provided the definition of puberty but you disagreed , however no response from you regarding this. Have already provided the criteria of 'buloogh' you run left and right , word smithing to try to hilight your impression of contradiction.

Now I am asking you , on what basis is your argument of 'too young' to mean prepubescent?

from you :'..Let me just ask you, all this equivcating your doing re defining terms, bouncing back between those terms that you redefined..'

Who is equivocating? You are deliberately asking the same questions with a new twist hoping for a different answer - 'hooray .. the muslims are equivocating!!'. Why don't you come up and state your stand , on what basis is the phrase 'too young' meaning prepubescent to you? I want you to take into account of menses. I have already provided what I mean by delayed menses.

from you :'..If my understanding of the plain reading of the text both the Quran and the Tasfir of Madoodi. Whith out inserting words you leanred from the tasifr of Karren Armstrong, or changing the meaning of the word OR, would you have a problem with it?

I mean really if it turned out that Moahmed had sex with Aisha before she was fully developed. Would it matter to you?..'

Yes , I do have a problem. You are arguing from a position of ignorance and reveling in it. You don' actually care for the criteria of when it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with wives. To you ... you just want to force the issue of prepubescent marriage in Quran65:4 disregarding - buloogh- already a law prohibiting prepubescent consummation of marriageCan you now state your stand and your justification why you keep insisting 'too young' in maududi's tafseer to mean prepubescent. You need to take into account of menses.

Now you are arguing from speculation. The marriage between Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishah(ra) was 1400 yrs ago and a historical fact that the attained 'buloogh' when the said marriage was consummated. Why are you speculating if Aishah(ra) might have not attained 'buloogh'? Do you have the evidence?

from you :'..I believe FMM has already answered you on that but let me be 100 percent clear on that. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. THAT IS A RASHI INTERPREATION. I DO NOT ACCEPT RASHI and NIETHER SHOULD YOU SINCEHE DENYS THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH..'

Too bad ... I did not even touch on rashi. I provided the calculation based on the biblical verses. This is the 2nd time , you are using rashi as an excuse. I repeat - I am not using rashi but calculations from the biblical verses.

The calculation shows that biblical rebekah was 3 yrs old when married to biblical isaac(40 yrs old). In any case , this is prepubescent. Can you address this issue and your double standards.

Discussion is 2 ways - I have my issues and you have yours. I addressed your issues but you are trying to avoid addressing my issues.

from you :'..I would like to commend you your your tone and for sticking with this one in spite of the unfounded Ad hominen coming from Sam.

I don't know if he is always like this or if the nature of this particular topic brings out theworst in him..'

Ha ha , inconsistency from christians. You are up in arms about Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra). However you try your best to avoid explaining biblical isaac(40) marriage to biblical rebekah(3).

I am waiting for radical moderate to provide his justification of why he considers 'too young' to be prepubescent in maududi's tafseer. He seems to be flapping left and right not wanting to answer.

No one could read the bible and come to this conclusion you did with out importuning all kinds of odd ideas.

The story of the courtship of Isaac and Rebecca is told in Genesis 24 There is absolutely no mention to the age of either of them although it’s obvious she is a competent young women and not a toddler.

What you have done is take a parenthetical statement in a genealogy found two chapters earlier in the text and treat it like a narrative. Not only that but you have introduced facts to the story out of thin air and based your entire reading of the text on them.

from you :'..I would like to understand if Islam considers marriage to nine year olds to moraly OK for us today.

I'm still not clear about that. but it's not worth wadding through the insults to find out..'

What kind of a question is this? Have you googled to find out that there are laws for the minimum age of marriage in the so called Islamic countries. If there are laws for minimum age of marriage , what do you think of the mentality of people now a days to the idea of 'marriage to 9 yrs old girls'? This kind of question is begging to be insulted. You are just asking for it.

from you :'..I already explained it did not happen.

you simply made it up.

No one could read the bible and come to this conclusion you did with out importuning all kinds of odd ideas.

The story of the courtship of Isaac and Rebecca is told in Genesis 24 There is absolutely no mention to the age of either of them although it’s obvious she is a competent young women and not a toddler..'

The calculation of the ages of biblical isaac / rebekah when married marriage gives a different story from what you claim. Genesis 24 do not state of any age. A toddler can carry water to trough if trained. No mention of the size of the jar. Why do you say I am making up stories. I thought you need to let the bible speak for itself.

There are 2 outstanding issues :(1) what is the justification that radical morderate or perhaps you on the claim that 'too young' in maududi's tafseer means prepubescent? The following is the full text of maududi's tafseer footnote :Maududi's entire tafseer footnoteNo where it claims prepubescent. He was providing the different reasons why the females may not have menstruated with reference to classical scholars.

(2) Claiming biblical rebekah was an adult in gen24 is not right as nowhere it states she was an adult. Is there any mention of courtship between biblical isaac / rebekah in gen24? It states of biblical abraham's servant looking out for and arranging who biblical isaac should marry.

'..In Sudan, the legal age for marriage is 18 although in rural areas it is not uncommonfor girls to be requested by a suitor at an earlier age.(pg 8)legal age of marriage in sudan

'..Researchers have found that the average age of marriage in the rural areas of Yemen is 12-13 years. In 1992 a Yemeni law stated the minimum age of marriage to be 15. Earlier this year, the Yemeni parliament sought to pass a child marriage law which fixed the minimum age to be 17. But cultural traditions and socio-economic coordinates often prevent this law from being a reality..'legal age of marriage in yemen

Who says there is no minimum legal age of marriage? Apart from KSA which is in the process of implementation ... the other 2 has the minimum legal ages. You did not do a thorough check.

What is the data that you use to substantiate your conclusion of '..Islam allows mariage to 9 year old girls and that if Islamic law was applied in the west we would be forced to allow this as well..'

You can used such method but you will appear awfully silly. What do you think??

from you :'..you can't have a calculation if you don't have a point of reference.

The Bible does not give you the date of her birth.

You just made up a date and added numbers to it.

Then you take your made up number and build an entire doctrine around it..'

Do I need a birth date? The point of reference is the birth of biblical isaac when biblical sarah was 90yrs old , clearly stated in gen17:17. Can you pinpoint exactly where am I making up stories? You are flapping left and right but not addressing the issue of the calculation proving me wrong. Can you address such?

No muslim is hurt. We are turning the tables on you - christians. Radical moderate claims prepubescence in Quran65:4. No where the verse states of prepubescence.He then claim it is in the tafseers and we focused on Maududi's tafseer. The full text of the footnote of Maududi's tafseer has been provided. Again no mention of sexual intercourse with prepubescent females. When asked for his justification - 'hey presto' - the disappearance act ... as usual. I am beginning to have this suspicion that there is collaboration between both of you. You posting , again , eases the pressure on him to provide the requested justification thus enabling him to show a clean pair of heels.

I took this off bro Paul Williams blog.'..some additional analysis focusing on sexual activity and religious identification yielded this result: 80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization..'young christians are not waiting

Isnt it funny how Muslims appeal to "Isalmic Countries" but then when confronted with the horrors of Islam being practiced in "Islamic Countries" they cray "Their are no Islamic Countries."

Lets take a look at Sams resposne.

KSA is introducing a min age of marriage of ELEVEN, thats right ELEVEN YEARS OLD. I guess thats matrue enough for Sam1528.

Sudan and Yemin both have WESTERN age limits for marriage of 17 to 18however notice that in the case of YEMIN " But cultural traditions and socio-economic coordinates often prevent this law from being a reality" and in the case of Sudan "although in rural areas it is not uncommonfor girls to be requested by a suitor at an earlier age."

Just like those that want to change the rape laws to more civilized western laws in pakistan. Sam1528 argues against his own relegion.

Moving on Sam1528 wrote in response to this nonsense of the age of Rebeca which he got from RASHI. Sam please you did not come up with this on your own, so quit being a MUSLIM and be honest.

He wrote...

"Do I need a birth date?"Yeah you do if you want to estabilish someones age.

But getting back to Mohamed setting "The Prescedent" as you put it on marying sexually imature girls. YOu have said over and over relying on Sheik Karen Armstrongs Tasifr that that it is Boolugh that determines sexual maturity not menstration.

So tell me in what Tanner stage is a girl sexual mature.

Tanner I no pubic hair at all (prepubertal Dominic state)

Tanner II small amount of long, downy hair with slight pigmentation on the labia majora

Tanner III hair becomes more coarse and curly, and begins to extend laterally

Sorry I should of pointed out that you have been arguing that there is no min age in Islam becasue it is based on BOOLOGH, a word you got from Sheik Karen Armstrong in her tasifir. With no reference to any Islamic sources she just makes this claim about being Mature in for sex.

Now you argue that there are Islamic countries that have min age that are either not enforced or in KSA case set to the age of ELEVEN.

Like I said you are all over the map on this one trying to defend the horro of Mohamed setting the prsedient of marying and having sex with 9 year olds.

from you :'..Just like those that want to change the rape laws to more civilized western laws in pakistan. Sam1528 argues against his own relegion..'

The question is simple. Is there a legal age? Yes or no? Ha ha , you are trying to twist something that is very clear. You guys claim that there is no legal age. Oops ... got you. People will break rules just like folks in the christian community.

From you :'..Moving on Sam1528 wrote in response to this nonsense of the age of Rebeca which he got from RASHI. Sam please you did not come up with this on your own, so quit being a MUSLIM and be honest..'

Then prove to us all that biblical rebekah's age was not 3yrs old when biblical isaac(40 yrs old) married her. You are just providing half answers and hoping for the best. You need to show that there is an interleaving time between biblical rebekah's birth and biblical sarah's death. So far there is none in the bible. You are stuck.

From you :'..But getting back to Mohamed setting "The Prescedent" as you put it on marying sexually imature girls. YOu have said over and over relying on Sheik Karen Armstrongs Tasifr that that it is Boolugh that determines sexual maturity not menstration..'

I will take it as is that menses is not a sign of 'buloogh' or puberty. No issues with me. TQ for stating the Tanner Stages. Now can you answer the question that I have been asking you. What is your justification that Quran65:4 in Maududi's tafseer relates to prepubescent females? You have the Tanner stages which has eliminated menses being the sign of puberty. According to the Tanner Stages , the female can acheive puberty even without menses.

Why are you asking me the question of puberty? You should now explain to us why you justify prepubescence in Maududi's tafseer with reference to the Tanner stages.

From you :'..Now you argue that there are Islamic countries that have min age that are either not enforced or in KSA case set to the age of ELEVEN.

Like I said you are all over the map on this one trying to defend the horro of Mohamed setting the prsedient of marying and having sex with 9 year olds..'

Ha ha , you have cornered yourself. You provided the Tanner Stages which means age is not the measurement. This is what I have been waiting for. Why are you arguing about age whereas you have already provided that puberty is a measure of the physical (and mental) development due to hormone changes.

The scholars have not contradicted anything and you are in support with the admission of the Tanner Stages. How is it you are arguing on 9 yr olds on one hand but Tanner Stages on the other? TQ again for stating the obvious. So what is it about 9 yr olds. According to Tanner Stages she has attained 'buloogh' as Aishah(ra) admitted he being a woman then.

This is not 3 yrs olds kids as in the bible. Keep your hands off 3 yrs old kids.