Banned From Church – Two Christian Grandmas Kicked to the Curb by Their Pastors

"This letter is to inform you that according to the by-laws of the Union Grove Baptist Church, and by vote of the active members, any membership or associations that you have had with this church are now officially revoked. Therefore, you cannot attend Union Grove Baptist Church for any reason whatsoever. You are not to come to the property of the Union Grove Baptist Church located at 680 Pulliam Street, Elberton, Georgia 30635."

Certified Letter sent to Genora Hamm Biggs

103-Year-Old Genora Hamm Biggs (Screen Shot)

Some elderly congregants across our Land of Liberty are facing difficult days as they are being thrown out of churches where they have been long-time members. It seems inconceivable, but it actually happening…

Back in April 2009, when our blog was just one month old, we shared the shocking story of Karolyn Caskey, who was perp-walked out of the church where she had been a member for nearly 50 years! Her pastor, who had been hired just a few years prior, began to implement changes that she and some other church members disapproved of such as disbanding the deacons due to the small size of the congregation. On January 18, 2008, The Wall Street Journal featured an article entitled "Banned From Church", which caught our attention. Here is our 2009 post.

The following is a transcript of a 911 call made by a pastor from his pulpit on a Sunday morning. This is NOT a joke!

11:01 am, June 17

911 Operator: Hello. Thanks for calling 911.

Pastor: Hello? Hello?

911 Operator: This is 911. Can I help you?

Pastor: Yeah. I’ve got somebody trespassing at the Allen Baptist Church.
You need to send an officer out immediately.

911 Operator: What the address sir?

Pastor: 4215 North Eden Road

911 Operator: OK. Is it someone that’s been warned to stay out or what’s going on exactly?

Pastor: Uh, they’re no longer a member at this church, and uh they’ve been told
to leave and uh they’re not welcome here and they refuse to leave.

911 Operator: And you name?

Pastor: Pastor Jason Burrick

911 Operator: And what’s the number of your cell phone you’re calling on sir?

Pastor: 23_ – _ _ _ _

911 Operator: And what’s their name?

Pastor: Karolyn Caskey

911 Operator: OK. And she’s just refusing to leave then?

Pastor: Yes

911 Operator: OK. Is she on the grounds or inside the church?

Pastor: She’s in the building and she’s been confronted and um she refused to go,
and we need to uh have her out ASAP.

911 Operator: OK. Well, I need to get the basics so I can send an officer.
What’s the nearest crossroad?

Pastor: Route 12 and 49. We’re right on the corner.

911 Operator: OK. All right. We’ll have someone there as quickly as we can. If anything
should change or it should turn into a real confrontation, give me a call back,

Pastor: All right. We’ll have someone at the back door waiting for him,
so just send him right in.

911 Operator: All right. Very good.

Pastor: Bye-bye.

This emergency phone call should serve as a WAKE-UP CALL for all Christians. What’s going on here? According to The Wall Street Journal article “Banned From Church” in the January 18, 2008 issue, the pastor at Allen Baptist Church in southwestern Michigan placed a 911 call from the pulpit when he spotted Karolyn Caskey in a church pew. The story can be found at the following link.

Just who is Karolyn Caskey? According to the WSJ article, she’s a 71-year-old mother and grandmother of three who has been a church member for close to 50 years. Mrs. Caskey has served her church as a Sunday school teacher and has been a regular contributor, donating 10% of her pension. According to friends and family, she’s a very generous lady who loves her church. When funds were low and the church couldn’t pay the electric bill, she sacrificed and gave money to meet these expenses. She even mowed the church’s lawn on occasion, and contributed $1,200 to the church when she sold her van. Mrs. Caskey plans to have an engraved image of Allen Baptist Church on her tombstone.

Imagine the scene. . . This elderly grandmother (who has two artificial knees and a double-hip replacement) is perp-walked out of Allen Baptist Church by a state trooper and a county sheriff’s officer. One of the officers handcuffs her, and the other carries her purse and Bible as she is removed from the sanctuary. Listen to the 911 call in the WSJ article.

While Mrs. Caskey’s was taken to jail under the charge of trespassing, her real crime (in her pastor’s view) was questioning his authority. She and an older married couple had insisted that the pastor follow the church constitution, which specified that a board of deacons be appointed to help govern the church. Pastor Burrick claimed the congregation was too small to warrant deacons. After much conflict, she and the couple were expelled from the church. In August 2006 Pastor Burrick sent a letter to the congregation informing them that Mrs. Caskey and Patsy and Emmit Church (the older married couple) had taken “action against the church and your preacher”, and they had been dismembered (it probably felt that way to them).

The WSJ article includes several other accounts similar to the situation at Allen Baptist Church. These stories provide a glimpse into a growing movement that is occurring in conservative Protestant churches. This sort of “church discipline” (or might we say “abuse”) is on the rise and may be coming to your church soon.

How does this newfangled church discipline work? Suspected sinners are privately confronted (Matthew 18) and if they refuse to repent, they are publicly castigated and excommunicated from the church. While church discipline seems perfectly reasonable when church members commit adultery or child abuse, for example, it is sometimes being exercised for legitimate questioning (which is now called “gossip”), skipping a church service, and not participating in a “community/care group” (such as a small group Bible study).

As a follow-up to this 2009 post, you might be interested to know that the church's history page indicates that Pastor Burrick left Allen Baptist Church in 2011.

Last week one of our readers alerted us about a similar situation that has been getting lots of media attention. (Hint, hint – please send us links to stories that you think we should be discussing.) Recently, a 103 year old grandmother was given the left boot of fellowship at the church where she had been a member since she was 11 years old! Instead of honoring Genora Hamm Biggs for her 92 years of faithful membership, the newly hired pastor, Rev. Tim Mattox, along with church officers, sent her a letter informing her that her membership had been revoked (see screen shot below).

Thankfully, Genora Hamm Biggs (who had worked for many years as a school teacher) did not go away quietly. Instead, she showed up at church Sunday morning. As has been reported in the news, the pastor, along with the church members, demonstrated tremendous immaturity. They turned out all the lights and vacated the worship center, leaving Genora all alone. The police were called; however, the officers who responded exercised great wisdom and refused to get involved in what appeared to be nothing more than a church dispute. Way to go Georgia police!

The story has gotten out, and the press has been keeping it front and center. Here is one news report that provides some excellent background information. There are many others available on the internet. We were shocked to learn that Tim Mattox had been one of Genora Bigg's students!

Here is a brother who comes to the defense of Genora Hamm Biggs and sets Rev. Tim Mattox straight. We hope you will take to the time to watch the video. What he shares could be applied to any authoritarian pastor who deceitfully takes over a church (which we have seen time and time again).

Please remember these powerful words from the video and adopt them as your own:

"The day of you being able to control these congregations and bully 'em around is coming to an end. That day is over…"

It's time to take back our churches from power-mongering pastors. Let's work together and stop these stealth church takeovers.

UPDATE (9/22/15): It appears that Rev. Tim Mattox has been removed as pastor, according to this 27 minute video. We will continue to monitor the situation.

I saw this headlined a few days ago on a site not dedicated to the news, so it is widely witnessed and what a witness they are presenting. There will always be pig headed authoritarian pastors, my issue is with the rest of the people that see this as normal, the right thing to do, or just put up with it.

I notice in the background of Mattox is a sign “PimpPreacher.com”. You can’t make this stuff up.

If you feel the need to have a 70-year-old escorted off curch premises by the police – in handcuffs – or to expel a 100 years old woman for the “crime” of disagreeing with you, you’re an epic fail – as a man, as a christian, as a human.

To quote another abusive pastor: in this case, you really “officially suck as a human being.”

A couple of other great quotes from this youtube homily: "Christ came to set us free, and that even means free from you, pastor." This man knows how to apply Galatians 5:1. "She's our grandmother, too." This is how we should all feel about the real people who are victimized by these clerical tyrants and stealth takeover artists.

In August 2006 Pastor Burrick sent a letter to the congregation informing them that Mrs. Caskey and Patsy and Emmit Church (the older married couple) had taken “action against the church and your preacher”, and they had been dismembered (it probably felt that way to them).

There is a spirit of rebellion in the American church. TWW continues to paint portraits of abuse in one form or another by authoritarian church leaders. Rebellion and arrogance go hand in hand. Scripture speaks to this: “For rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry” (1 Samuel 15:23).

For years I taught at a non-denom Christian high school. A former student of mine (whose family required substantial social supports to which I contributed generously, including educational supports for him and his brother) went off to Master’s College and SBTS. Throughout his educational evolution the kind respect he had shown me devolved into what finally felt like contempt. The call to “pastor” can be a seductive one. It’s interesting that Christ’s words, “The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher” is framed within the context of judgment.
What I found touching in the video was a male supporter of Ms. Biggs referring to her as “Mother Biggs.” The spiritual and honorary title of “mother” eclipses that of “pastor” any day, IMHO.

A couple of other great quotes from this youtube homily: “Christ came to set us free, and that even means free from you, pastor.” This man knows how to apply Galatians 5:1. “She’s our grandmother, too.” This is how we should all feel about the real people who are victimized by these clerical tyrants and stealth takeover artists.

There is a spirit of rebellion in the American church. TWW continues to paint portraits of abuse in one form or another by authoritarian church leaders. Rebellion and arrogance go hand in hand. Scripture speaks to this: “For rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry” (1 Samuel 15:23).

And yet over and over these authoritarian pastors, accuse the members who refuse to submit to them, as rebellious.
Upside down and backwards these days are.

I thought our churches were supposed to take care of the elderly widows. Isn’t there something in the Bible about that??? Maybe I’m reading the wrong Bible.
Oh, never mind. I forgot that certain pastors can pick and choose which passages REALLY matter and which ones don’t. They can rant and rail about members tithing beyond their means, devoting every spare minute to their church, and subjugating the women while they ignore praying for, caring for, and loving those in need!

I wonder if this pastor was too busy looking out for número uno to ever visit a sick member or a hurting family?
Tim Mattox and his ilk should not be allowed in pulpits.
Hats off to the gentleman in the video for having the courage to take a public and righteous stand against this guy!

Here’s an article I wrote the other day. Tim Challies wrote an article stating that he is an “Old Fashioned Christian” and in the process redefines a lot of things. I pushed back hard and wrote a rebuttal. 🙂

Throughout his educational evolution the kind respect he had shown me devolved into what finally felt like contempt. The call to “pastor” can be a seductive one. It’s interesting that Christ’s words, “The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher” is framed within the context of judgment.

“But such is the lure of the Limelight, how easy
It takes hold of the mind of its host…”
— Ponyphonic, “Lullaby for a Princess”

This headlong plunge into authoritarian church leadership is truly sickening and frightening for the future of Christianity. The entire foundation of a Christian church from the very first was as a gathering of believers to share and discuss their faith, heck even women could stand up in church and prophesy (with their head covered).

All discussion is now forbidden unless approved by the snot-nosed, jackbooted, petty tyrants being churned out by SBTS and it’s ilk to whom love – another foundation of Christianity – is a nonexistent concept.

these authoritarian pastors, accuse the members who refuse to submit to them

Yes the "accuser of the brethren" is out and about. Unfortunately, that spirit when it's in the pulpit receives far too little challenge by church folks. When they do, the elders see them to the door, as in these two cases. Days to trust just any old man of the cloth are long gone. The enemy has come into the church through the back door to kill, steal and destroy. I actually had a young reformed pastor at an SBC church plant near me tell me "We are coming in the back door" – in reference to the New Calvinist movement. To which this old fuddy-duddy replied "Anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber" (John 10:1). He smiled and walked away. The arrogance of these young reformers is off the scale.

I am telling you anyone over 50…they hate. And they want to get rid of the ” old folks” who remember how things ” were” in the past.

In the SBC, New Calvinists in their 20s-40s have time to wait the old guys out. There will be a natural attrition of SBC’s non-Calvinist majority … it’s called death. Within one generation (if not before), Calvinism will be the theological default in SBC. But God …

Within one generation (if not before), Calvinism will be the theological default in SBC. But God …

That may be true, but what will the SBC look like at that point? Will it have dwindled to insignificance? IMO the young pups are running on fumes and supporting their revolution/resurgence on the capital accumulated by the SBCers that they disdain so much. It is adolescent. Their selling point is that their Resurgence is not your father’s Oldsmobile. What happens when their children say thanks but no thanks to their religion? What will be their appeal to future generations who are not rebelling against traditional Baptist belief? Come to me all you who are elect and superior and predestined before the foundation of the world to believe all that is written in Grudem’s ST?

That is not the true Gospel, and I think that there are some numbers of young people who go to SBTS and other like-minded institutions who see through the garbage and have no desire to climb the ladder of the Institutional Church. Those are the true servants of God, but we don’t hear about them because they don’t talk about themselves endlessly like the young pups who cannot reason beyond “Piper says” or “Mohler says.”

That may be true, but what will the SBC look like at that point? Will it have dwindled to insignificance? IMO the young pups are running on fumes and supporting their revolution/resurgence on the capital accumulated by the SBCers that they disdain so much. It is adolescent. Their selling point is that their Resurgence is not your father’s Oldsmobile. What happens when their children say thanks but no thanks to their religion? What will be their appeal to future generations who are not rebelling against traditional Baptist belief? Come to me all you who are elect and superior and predestined before the foundation of the world to believe all that is written in Grudem’s ST?

They have to increase “market share” or it is all over. One of the things that shocked me in the Christian Industrial Complex marketing world is they totally understand they have about a 5 year window to suck youth in. That worked for a while with the seekers but it worked VERY well with the YRR movement. But the YRR sucked more youth in to seek ministry as a vocation not just to attend church.

We tend to forget that the young men attending T4G and reading the TGC are those either seeking ministry positions, those who want to seek ministry positions and those IN ministry positions. Piper, Driscoll, Mahaney and all the rest mainly spend their time speaking to young men who are pastors or want to be in ministry. That is their market share.

The infrastructure available is cringing under the weight. New Church plants and stealth takeovers can only work for so long. And I do believe this has something to do with the IMB’s recent unChristlike decision.

Max wrote:
Within one generation (if not before), Calvinism will be the theological default in SBC. But God …
That may be true, but what will the SBC look like at that point? Will it have dwindled to insignificance? IMO the young pups are running on fumes and supporting their revolution/resurgence on the capital accumulated by the SBCers that they disdain so much. It is adolescent. Their selling point is that their Resurgence is not your father’s Oldsmobile. What happens when their children say thanks but no thanks to their religion?

I would love to live another 20 years to see what the denomination ( SBC) is going to look like….I predict it will be a shell of itself.
The old folks like me will either be dead or Dones…..the youth of today see them for what they are, the P.T. Barnum ‘s of the 21stC.
Maybe, just maybe 8 million members with 3-4 million attending on any given Sunday.

.the youth of today see them for what they are, the P.T. Barnum ‘s of the 21stC.

One of the problems of being young is that you have little experience with being wrong about important things. So we thought that our generation would be the ones who finally get it right. That’s what these young people think, too. The ones who are promoted have the egos flattered, but they cannot see that an appeal is being made to their sinful flesh that tells them they are the ones we have all been waiting for. People who believe they are all that are happy to listen to anyone who affirms them without ever stopping to ask whether what they are told is actually true.

Kudos to the people at Genora Biggs’ church who threw out the hireling who had crept in and was embraced by some who were blinded to the cruelty perpetrated against Ms. Biggs and others who resisted their will. We have some hirelings in the SBC, and we have many more who lap up and parrot what the hirelings have to say while having no regard at all for the cruel treatment their heroes dish out to dissenters. Meanwhile too many have lost the ability to call the balls and strikes what they are because they are too invested in one side or the other.

Maybe, just maybe 8 million members with 3-4 million attending on any given Sunday.

Heck, that’s about the SBC membership now! I know that the SBC “official” number is somewhere around 16 million. But, in actuality, half of those still on membership rolls are dead, done or missing in action. Of the 8 million real members, only half of those attend a few Sundays per year. That leaves only a few million SBC “faithful”, but they have become so apathetic that they don’t scare the devil much when they get out of bed in the morning. Thus, only a handful of old guys like me have eyes to see and ears to hear … and concerned enough to sound the alarm about New Calvinism! But, sadly, the masses don’t really give a big whoop, as the sun sets on a once-great evangelistic denomination.

The young, restless and reformed check their Twitter account each day for “Piper Points”, “Mohler Moments”, and “Driscoll Drivel”. While the latter has not been on the radar of late, I suspect the potty-mouth preacher will soon return after re-inventing himself.

To which this old fuddy-duddy replied “Anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber” (John 10:1). He smiled and walked away. The arrogance of these young reformers is off the scale.

Thank goodness that there are people rising up in various sectors of the church to denounce and expose the posers and hirelings and corporate climbers. And thank goodness there are 103-year-olds who will stand up against what is wrong. Genora Biggs has no doubt contributed much more to her community in 40 years(!) as a teacher than the hireling ever did in his.

One of the problems of being young is that you have little experience with being wrong about important things. So we thought that our generation would be the ones who finally get it right. That’s what these young people think, too.

“Nine out of ten New Ideas are really Old Mistakes. But to a generation which did not exist at the time these Old Mistakes were last made, they appear as Fresh New Ideas.”
— G.K.Chesterton (from memory)

K.D. wrote:
Maybe, just maybe 8 million members with 3-4 million attending on any given Sunday.
Heck, that’s about the SBC membership now! I know that the SBC “official” number is somewhere around 16 million. But, in actuality, half of those still on membership rolls are dead, done or missing in action. Of the 8 million real members, only half of those attend a few Sundays per year. That leaves only a few million SBC “faithful”, but they have become so apathetic that they don’t scare the devil much when they get out of bed in the morning. Thus, only a handful of old guys like me have eyes to see and ears to hear … and concerned enough to sound the alarm about New Calvinism! But, sadly, the masses don’t really give a big whoop, as the sun sets on a once-great evangelistic denomination.

Max, you are probably correct…the denomination is in a ” death spiral.”
But the Neo-Cals probably say ” it was predestined!”

@ Dee:
My recently deceased mother-in-law had my husband pay her tithes till the day she died. She was in an nursing home then. I tried to tell my hubby not to pay them. It wasn’t right. But that’s she wanted and that’s what she got. What is wrong with this scenario when the elderly feel they have to pay their tithes?

Daisy wrote:
For the Love of Money – O’ Jays, Full Versionhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3uipTO-4A
Memories for me…The O’Jays invited me for lunch at their Beverly Hills home when I quit my job at Imperial Records years ago. Great fun to have such a talented group cook for me….:)

@ Dee:
My recently deceased mother-in-law had my husband pay her tithes till the day she died. She was in an nursing home then. I tried to tell my hubby not to pay them. It wasn’t right. But that’s she wanted and that’s what she got. What is wrong with this scenario when the elderly feel they have to pay their tithes?

My mother ( who passed on at 98 ) paid her tithes until she died, and 10% of what she had left in her savings after she died, my brother sent to the Church. None of us liked it either, but my brother (her trustee ) promised to carry out her last wishes.

There will always be pig headed authoritarian pastors, my issue is with the rest of the people that see this as normal, the right thing to do, or just put up with it.

This is the crux of the problem. There will always be people in positions of authority who abuse that authority. The problem is that the peons in the pews allow this to happen. We sit and watch people get kicked out of churches, shunned, disciplined, etc. because they disagree with some young man’s doctrine or polity. We allow people to be treated as secondary because they are not clergy, upper middle class, male, etc. The people in the churches need to not allow these things to occur.

You are incorrect my friend. They are called by God. They will be especially blessed. They have been given special insight. They are special!
What ever happened to the idea of the Reformation that there was no split between the clergy and laity. I think our YRR have put that notion to bed.

K.D., as a 60+ year Southern Baptist, this has been painful to watch. The young whippersnappers would call me nostalgic, but I recall a much healthier denomination. I’m so old that I remember when Wednesday night prayer meetings were actually prayer meetings! Saints would weep at the altar praying for lost souls. The altar in the church I grew up in was stained with tears; there were knee indentations in the wood flooring where folks knelt. Prayer altars have been covered with platforms these days for pride to strut its stuff. In their efforts to be contemporary and “culturally-relevant”, New Calvinists have forgotten that Jesus is the eternal contemporary. I don’t have a problem with form, as long as there is some substance to it. Sad days as the SBC gets a makeover.

What ever happened to the idea of the Reformation that there was no split between the clergy and laity. I think our YRR have put that notion to bed.

In SBC ranks, when the Baptist Faith & Message was revised in 2000, long-held Baptists doctrines of priesthood of the believer and soul competency were diminished. Whose job is the ministry? Every believer is a priest; every believer has a role.

PimpPreacher is a watchdog website that tracks the nonsense going on in the pulpit.

Thanks I figured that out later when I saw the comment with the link to their site concerning Mattox getting dismembered. Whether for the right reason or not, I welcome that he was shown the door, I wonder where he’ll end up. It is apparently hard to keep these guys down, maybe he can join Driscoll in Arizona.

It would be interesting in an aggravating way to be a fly on the wall when these big shots and wanna be big shots get together. I wonder if the conversation is as painful as I imagine.

K.D., as a 60+ year Southern Baptist, this has been painful to watch. The young whippersnappers would call me nostalgic, but I recall a much healthier denomination. I’m so old that I remember when Wednesday night prayer meetings were actually prayer meetings! Saints would weep at the altar praying for lost souls. The altar in the church I grew up in was stained with tears; there were knee indentations in the wood flooring where folks knelt. Prayer altars have been covered with platforms these days for pride to strut its stuff. In their efforts to be contemporary and “culturally-relevant”, New Calvinists have forgotten that Jesus is the eternal contemporary. I don’t have a problem with form, as long as there is some substance to it. Sad days as the SBC gets a makeover.

What will be their appeal to future generations who are not rebelling against traditional Baptist belief? Come to me all you who are elect and superior and predestined before the foundation of the world to believe all that is written in Grudem’s ST?

Just to add to the ‘ick’ factor: I scrolled through the comments under that post. One commenter, using the handle TheAesir, suggested that the author should leave Gateway and start attending… wait for it… The Village Church.

When another commenter called him out on this, mentioning Karen Hinckley’s case, TheAesir replied that he was close to those events. And while he wouldn’t give any specifics, he assured us, “Your understanding of the situation isn’t entirely accurate.”

Where have we heard that before? I wonder if TheAesir’s real initials are M.C.

You’re not giving him enough credit. Plenty of Villageistas know how to hear the talking point and go forth with it. Do you have a better idea on how to avoid the discipline(TM)?

I find it interesting that he was a Lutheran. Last week I talked to a young lady who grew up Lutheran, was told in TVC’s membership class that she would have to be immersed, refused, and was told to find another church.

Not allowed in the building? I’m a member of the body of Christ and am welcome in any congregation that is made up of members of the body of Christ. If they do not welcome me or another believer, that tells me that congregation is not made up of members of the body of Christ.

K.D., If you listen to New Calvinist sermon podcasts (I do, to keep track of them in my area), you will hear a LOT about God, less about Jesus, and hardly a mention of the Holy Spirit. They are really passionate about this Calvinist God … but it’s a misplaced passion. (And to stay on blog topic, all Christian grandmas said AMEN!)

I’m kind of sort of proud you used the meme “dismembered” that I created in my super secret meme lab.

Anyway, you really need to keep those little old ladies in line because if they start thinking all by their selves, there will be no unidirectional control and dominating congregations will be like herding cats, dontchaknow.

Jesus coming back would ruin everything for them. The first will be last. :o)

I know that, and you know that, but…

They rewrite the rules so they think they will be last…when the time comes. :o)

I am not kidding when I say this. I had this discussion once with a few mega church high level staffers, mostly ministers. they honestly thought their cushy jobs and 30 hour work weeks were a “sacrifice”. (They had no other comparison to measure) They painted quite a picture for themselves. To them, there is nothing more sacrificial than making a living like that off Jesus. They had convinced themselves that the masses of people coming each weekend was proof enough God was quite pleased with them.

There is a lot of delusion out there. The hard part is not getting sucked into it.

I’m interested in knowing how many other victims of Biblical Church Discipline (TM) have had the defense of their character cut off with a version of, “Your understanding of the situation isn’t entirely accurate.” or “Hey, you don’t the rest of the story.” This technique should be called out for what it is: further slander of someone who is prevented from a defense (by encouraging others to think even worse of him/her), and done by “church leaders” (TM). Where exactly, in the Matthew 18 church discipline chapter does this fall?

“Hey, you don’t the rest of the story.” This technique should be called out for what it is: further slander of someone who is prevented from a defense (by encouraging others to think even worse of him/her), and done by “church leaders” (TM).

I find it interesting that he was a Lutheran. Last week I talked to a young lady who grew up Lutheran, was told in TVC’s membership class that she would have to be immersed, refused, and was told to find another church.

The requirement of Baptism by Immersion is pretty standard to all SBC churches. Along with affirming homosexuality and calling a female pastor, accepting members not baptized by immersion can get a church thrown out of a local association or State Convention. I have seen it happen fairly recently.

What needs to happen is the church members needs to all ban together and stand up in church with their backs to the pastors who do this crap and rather than tithe to this pastor take an offering and disperse it to whomever they agree could use the funds.

Anyway, you really need to keep those little old ladies in line because if they start thinking all by their selves, there will be no unidirectional control and dominating congregations will be like herding cats, dontchaknow.

I’m interested in knowing how many other victims of Biblical Church Discipline (TM) have had the defense of their character cut off with a version of, “Your understanding of the situation isn’t entirely accurate.” or “Hey, you don’t the rest of the story.” This technique should be called out for what it is: further slander of someone who is prevented from a defense (by encouraging others to think even worse of him/her), and done by “church leaders” (TM). Where exactly, in the Matthew 18 church discipline chapter does this fall?

Carl Trueman comments on a recent obnoxious post by Doug Wilson (or am I being redundant? Is there any other kind of Wilson post?)

This is addressing Wilson’s September 2015 post, “On Why Christian Women Are Prettier,” in which Wilson manages to create insulting caricatures of women.

I’ve read other, similar stuff Wilson has written about women in the past. There are no shades of grey in the Wilson universe. He stereotypes groups of women, as if all women fall neatly into all these categories he creates.

That excerpted paragraph by Wilson was disgusting and betrays either a total lack of exposure to the real world or, more likely, a refusal to acknowledge what he actually saw there (i.e., non-Christians and women as actual human beings and not cartoon villains).

It’s also a perfect example of the classic Wilsonite “joke,” in which Doug cracks himself up and everyone else is still trying to figure out why it was funny and (in some cases) what it even meant.

bellevuepastor: Jesus holds the pastors of His churches in His right hand (cf. Rev. 1:16-20). Church mbrs who attack/abuse pastors are on dangerous ground.

It seems you really cannot make stuff up that is weirder than the real thing. Of course, the Right Hand guys get to decide what constitutes and “attack” or “abuse” of their precious selves. Hopefully Gaines does not believe that God is unconcerned with Right Handers who abuse and attack the little sheep. Like the creepy Right Hander who attacked and abused Genora Biggs.

I had similar thoughts which is why I wonder how these type interact. It reminds me of a bunch of world leaders getting together and have a group photo, smiling faces, they spend the rest of their time plotting against each other.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
“Your understanding of the situation isn’t entirely accurate.”
I’m interested in knowing how many other victims of Biblical Church Discipline (TM) have had the defense of their character cut off with a version of, “Your understanding of the situation isn’t entirely accurate.” or “Hey, you don’t the rest of the story.” This technique should be called out for what it is: further slander of someone who is prevented from a defense (by encouraging others to think even worse of him/her), and done by “church leaders” (TM). Where exactly, in the Matthew 18 church discipline chapter does this fall?
Jonathan Leeman, your expert opinion is requested! Please respond. In earnest, please respond.

Yes, that happened to us.

What is so insidious is that often in life it is quite true that people make judgments without knowing the whole story and so often when we hear the other side, it does in fact change our point of view.

However, that fact also makes the words “You don’t know the whole story” a perfect cover for abusers. They know people have had those experiences and they count on them to assume it’s the same in that particular case.

Again, in most conflicts in life, there are two sides of the story. Husband says something that is kind of rude. Wife gets triggered and says something rude back. Who is to blame? Both. That’s not abuse. That is just plain conflict between peers.

The thing is, when there is abuse, it is an exception to the “two sides” rule. There is really only one true side of the story—and it’s not the one you’re getting from the abuser. Abusers know this and victims often know this (once any brainwashing by the abuser has worn thin), but if a person has never been a victim nor an abuser, it’s highly likely that they don’t “get” this. As soon as they start looking for the “other side” of the victim’s story, they’ve sided with the abuser. When there is abuse, neutrality results in maintaining the status quo. That keeps the abuser in power. Neutrality is in effect siding with the abuser against the victim.

The comment section in DW’s article is as bad as the article. Does he pay people to engage with anyone who disagrees with his assertions? I think some of those commenters are his daughters. They clearly believe that the world was created to run by way of authority and hierarchy. I just don’t see that when I look at God in the flesh walking on this earth.

I had similar thoughts which is why I wonder how these type interact. It reminds me of a bunch of world leaders getting together and have a group photo, smiling faces, they spend the rest of their time plotting against each other.

And I know of a church taken over by the YRR who had a large bequest coming from elderly members who were unable at attend and totally ignored before they died.

The adult children sued and won.

Check out the story, I think from back in the ’80s, about Paige and Dorothy Patterson, a rich, elderly couple where the husband was on his deathbed in the hospital, and a typewriter. I don’t have time to Google it now, but it shouldn’t be hard to find.

Abusers know this and victims often know this (once any brainwashing by the abuser has worn thin), but if a person has never been a victim nor an abuser, it’s highly likely that they don’t “get” this. As soon as they start looking for the “other side” of the victim’s story, they’ve sided with the abuser.

On the other hand, church members who discern false shepherds and call them out before they work their dirty deeds stand on very good ground. Sheep don’t need to cower in a corner of the feedlot when wolves come over the fence. Do something – just don’t stand there! (Thank you TWW for calling them out)

I learned years ago to just not even look at the comments on someplace like DW’s blog or BaylyBlog. Too infuriating, and yeah, usually worse than the OP…though unfortunately they’re also informative because, no matter what the blogger/teacher/pastor/etc. claims they mean, the combox show swhat the audience/students/followers are hearing and implementing.

TVC holds dual affiliation with SBC and Acts29. There has been much dispute over whether Acts29 is a denomination or a “network.” They sure behave like a denomination. I keep waiting for Acts30 to be written so we can move past this mess.

Mae wrote:
K.D. wrote:
I am telling you anyone over 50…they hate. And they want to get rid of the ” old folks” who remember how things ” were” in the past.
Agree. We were 60 and 64, when we first were told if we didn’t agree with new church policies, we should find a new church home. ( We had been members for 25 years)
They need to realize the “over 50” crowd are the folks who give the most and are supporting their often lavish lifestyles. Run them off, and the average “giving unit’s” contribution declines.

All they want is the over 50s money…..give some in-put, and the ” youngster” pastoral leadership is the first to throw you out.

lydia wrote:
And I know of a church taken over by the YRR who had a large bequest coming from elderly members who were unable at attend and totally ignored before they died.
The adult children sued and won.
Check out the story, I think from back in the ’80s, about Paige and Dorothy Patterson, a rich, elderly couple where the husband was on his deathbed in the hospital, and a typewriter. I don’t have time to Google it now, but it shouldn’t be hard to find.

I thought you meant that Paige and Dorothy Patterson were the elderly couple who were ignored. I googled and Paige and Dorothy Patterson are still alive. They both teach at a seminary and he was apparently part of the “quiet revolution” in the SBC. Did you mean Paige Patterson was the one who ignored the elderly couple? (Confused and trying to find the story)

This is interesting.
Whatever would Christian gender complementarians and patriarcahlists (especially the really vocal ones, like Piper or Doug Wilson) do about this woman?
She does not fit neatly into their little boxes for boys v. girls.

I probably could have had children, had I married – in that I do not have this woman’s medical condition, but any woman who does not marry and/or does not (or cannot) have children is persona non grata in Christian gender complementarian milieus.

You have guys like Franklin Graham feeling that gender needs definite markers, such as toy aisles labeled with “boy” and “girl” signs at Target stores.

What are guys like that going to do with a biological woman who was born without some of the internal “girly wiring” most women get at birth, the sort of traits that comps particularly associate with womanhood?

I learned years ago to just not even look at the comments on someplace like DW’s blog or BaylyBlog. Too infuriating, and yeah, usually worse than the OP…though unfortunately they’re also informative because, no matter what the blogger/teacher/pastor/etc. claims they mean, the combox show swhat the audience/students/followers are hearing and implementing.

On a number of occasions I’ve been in a meeting where everyone is speaking in code and then some un-sophisticate speaks plain english and “spills the beans”. Is that the gift of interpretation?

@ Daisy:
That excerpted paragraph by Wilson was disgusting and betrays either a total lack of exposure to the real world or, more likely, a refusal to acknowledge what he actually saw there (i.e., non-Christians and women as actual human beings and not cartoon villains).
It’s also a perfect example of the classic Wilsonite “joke,” in which Doug cracks himself up and everyone else is still trying to figure out why it was funny and (in some cases) what it even meant.

The excerpted paragraph is also demonstrably untrue, Literally billions of non-Christian women fail to fall into his categories. But he may not care. One commenter told him, basically, Great troll! IE Say anything to bring out the poor sincere deluded saps who aren’t “in” on the chuckles. It’ll be interesting to see if he responds to Trueman.

lydia wrote:
And I know of a church taken over by the YRR who had a large bequest coming from elderly members who were unable at attend and totally ignored before they died.
The adult children sued and won.
Check out the story, I think from back in the ’80s, about Paige and Dorothy Patterson, a rich, elderly couple where the husband was on his deathbed in the hospital, and a typewriter. I don’t have time to Google it now, but it shouldn’t be hard to find.

I thought you meant that Paige and Dorothy Patterson were the elderly couple who were ignored. I googled and Paige and Dorothy Patterson are still alive. They both teach at a seminary and he was apparently part of the “quiet revolution” in the SBC. Did you mean Paige Patterson was the one who ignored the elderly couple? (Confused and trying to find the story)

There are no shades of grey in the Wilson universe. He stereotypes groups of women, as if all women fall neatly into all these categories he creates.

I just stopped in at, arguably, the most left-leaning coffee house in the whole state of Idaho. Probably plenty of enemies for Wilson there. I likely tripled the conservatism just by walking in the door. But, aw shucks, even there I spied no women meeting Wilson’s stereotypes. Were they all Christians, maybe?

Wiki does a pretty good job so I’m using it. If you’re more interested, go to the referenced primary sources.

Anyway, people who have this condition are genetically male XY but phenotypicly female. They are missing the receptor that binds with androgens (male hormones) that tell the developing embryo to be male. (the default is female) The binary concept of gender is not rooted in biology, trust me, there is a spectrum with more than two possibilities.

People with AIS tend to be very feminine in their outward appearance and would stand a better than average chance of falling into their contrived standards of femininity.

It reminds me of a bunch of world leaders getting together and have a group photo, smiling faces, they spend the rest of their time plotting against each other.

“On the surface, manners are normally suave. Rudeness to one’s superiors would obviously be suicidal: rudeness to one’s equals might put them on their guard before you were ready to spring your mine. For of course ‘Dog eat dog’ is the principle of the whole organisation… Over all this their good manners, their expressions of grave respect, their “tributes” to one another’s invaluable services form a thin crust. Every now and then it gets punctured, and the scalding lava of their hatred spurts out.”
— C.S. Lewis, describing how he imagined the culture of Hell for “The Screwtape Letters”

And to think that this might possibly describe the relationship between modern evangelical “leaders”…

If you worked hard all your life to build and buy a home to live in and then squatters moved in, kicked you out and took over your home and all your SAVINGS AND assets you would know the outrage at what they were doing. Well that is exactly what is going on here. They worm their way in to steal, plunder and destroy and have the arrogance to claim they are right. These older people who are the ones who have paid for and built the church they attend, and for the savings the church has not the newbies who would rather take theirs than build their own. Plunder is what they do.

They worm their way in to steal, plunder and destroy and have the arrogance to claim they are right.

A familiar story in SBC ranks right now. The YRR have two methods of establishing their ministry: (1) new reformed church plants, or (2) takeover an established mainline non-Calvinist church. The new church plant approach is a much easier row to hoe. The young Calvinist comes fresh out of seminary and opens a store-front church somewhere with his team of young “elders.” They typically are bank-rolled by a parent church or use SBC church planting money to get going. The second approach is a tougher task for these young whippersnappers. To move into a traditional (non-Calvinist) pulpit, they must first deceive (lie to) the pastor search committee about their theological leaning. Once in, they then progressively implement a reformed method and message – beginning with moving the church from congregational governance to elder rule. When the members catch up to their scheme, there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth leading to a church split with the older members leaving, and the New Calvinists in control of church building and assets. A successful model that is happening all over the SBC landscape. (The young reformers, of course, justify their behavior for the good of the new reformation – to recover the true gospel that the rest of us have lost).

I do not get these types of actions. My point of view is that a pastor and leadership should serve at the pleasure of the membership–a healthy check to power. I was not around to experience this, but in the church I grew up in (left 20 years ago) an grandma, then an 80 year old grandpa were removed from church membership. Not sure of the grandma’s story but she was the wife of a former deacon (deceased) who lead singing while I was growing up. The grandpa (a long time pillar of the church) become concerned about the situation and started asking questions. He apparently didn’t deal with authority “appropriately”, because leadership convinced the membership to vote him out of the church.
Background: conservative country church. New minister 12-15 years ago from Masters Seminary. Name gets changed, inactive members (including me)are removed from the rolls (I am not sure the significance of this), constitution gets changed giving leadership/pastor more power. Attendance in the late 1990’s in low 100’s, increased to 200+ (a big church for our area) at time of the blow up, has returned to the low 100’s. Pastor returned to Masters to teach. Current pastor is also from Masters, now some kids are going to Masters College. Last I checked it is a 9marks church.

I do not get these types of actions. My point of view is that a pastor and leadership should serve at the pleasure of the membership–a healthy check to power. I was not around to experience this, but in the church I grew up in (left 20 years ago) an grandma, then an 80 year old grandpa were removed from church membership. Not sure of the grandma’s story but she was the wife of a former deacon (deceased) who lead singing while I was growing up. The grandpa (a long time pillar of the church) become concerned about the situation and started asking questions. He apparently didn’t deal with authority “appropriately”, because leadership convinced the membership to vote him out of the church.
Background: conservative country church. New minister 12-15 years ago from Masters Seminary. Name gets changed, inactive members (including me)are removed from the rolls (I am not sure the significance of this), constitution gets changed giving leadership/pastor more power. Attendance in the late 1990’s in low 100’s, increased to 200+ (a big church for our area) at time of the blow up, has returned to the low 100’s. Pastor returned to Masters to teach. Current pastor is also from Masters, now some kids are going to Masters College. Last I checked it is a 9marks church.

One of the most nightmarish pastors I have even known received an MDiv from Master’s Seminary. It was an unmitigated nightmare serving on the elder team under him. The church imploded under his watch and the members, embittered, scattered. He has since changed, I believe, and come to see what destruction he wrought as a pastor, but even though he was an eventual success story, I would be highly suspicious of anyone who comes from Masters Seminary or has anything to do with the ministry of John MacArthur.

“On the surface, manners are normally suave. Rudeness to one’s superiors would obviously be suicidal: rudeness to one’s equals might put them on their guard before you were ready to spring your mine. For of course ‘Dog eat dog’ is the principle of the whole organisation… Over all this their good manners, their expressions of grave respect, their “tributes” to one another’s invaluable services form a thin crust. Every now and then it gets punctured, and the scalding lava of their hatred spurts out.”
— C.S. Lewis, describing how he imagined the culture of Hell for “The Screwtape Letters”
And to think that this might possibly describe the relationship between modern evangelical “leaders”…

I’ve heard some 9Marks folks talk about a 5-year rule. Bring the changes slowly over about 5 years. The ones who don’t like the incremental changes along the way will leave during the 5 years for various reasons, and new ones drawn to the 9Marks philosophy will come. At about 5 years, there has been a big enough change in the composition of the congregation that it is then safe to do Big Things. I think there may be something to that, and I cannot quarrel with the effectiveness of such a strategy. The godliness of it is something else entirely.

The old guard Calvinists in the SBC – those sympathetic to the Founders Ministries – have been conducting a “Quiet Revolution” for years (they actually call it that). New Calvinists, on the other hand, aren’t patient and are in-your-face, making changes rapidly. The old guard couldn’t have accomplished their mission to Calvinize the SBC, without the energy of the young, restless, and reformed. Dr. Mohler knew that, as he’s gone about mobilizing an army of young reformed militants, who do whatever they must do to capture SBC pulpits for the greater cause of the new reformation.

The old guard couldn’t have accomplished their mission to Calvinize the SBC, without the energy of the young, restless, and reformed. Dr. Mohler knew that, as he’s gone about mobilizing an army of young reformed militants, who do whatever they must do to capture SBC pulpits for the greater cause of the new reformation.

Sometimes church discipline is for legitimate reasons. Problem is it can also become a free license to spiritually abuse people by those who feel they have no one to answer to since they, as pastors, elders, or deacons, may view themselves as rulers of the church. Also who determines the punishment? It can far exceed the measure of the crime. It can be personal and not fair and balanced. Church discipline should be very rare and when meted out allow for the possibility of reconciliation. I don’t see much or an irenic spirit in the examples in blog above,