Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Hey well I finally managed to beat the super double train subway master, so I continued battling which got me all the way to a 157 win streak which is quite a bit better than my super single streak (123 wins) my team was as follows :

I finally lost to yet another trick room team the crunch from my tyranitar didn't OHKO Musharna, so it used trick room and the rest followed on from there with a Gigalith and Cofagrigus taking out my team.

I'm also torn as to the possibility of using another poke instead of Garchomp. Chomp's inability to boost its speed is really frustrating given the number of very fast pokes that can show up on opponents' teams, so I'm occasionally tempted to replace it with something that can speed itself up. However, as noted earlier, a key consideration for my team is being able to handle Volt Switchers, and there are very few pokes that can resist Electric Attacks and can boost their Speed and the appropriate Attack stat with a single move.

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Would Britscor not be a possible option in this case? It has reasonable base speed, great bulk, agility, and great coverage with acrobatics and EQ. I'm basing this on OU knowledge mind, and I don't know how it would fare in the subway. It doesn't offer the bonus of rough skin, but sand veil can be just as handy.

Gratz on that amazing Heatran Hall, Jumpman! It was a long but interesting read!

@NoCheese: Just in case you might have forgotten, Lilligant has Own Tempo, meaning, it doesn't need the Lum for Petal Dance. Gratz on your streak so far too! You know what ground type can Dragon Dance? Whiscash! :D (I haven't tried it out, but from what I remember from theorymonning, it wasn't very impressive.)

Now, on a more serious note, I haven't tried QD Lilligant myself, but I've tried plenty of QD mono-attack Volcarona (QD / Sub / Bug Buzz / Rest). From my experience with mono-attack Volcarona, I am not totally sure Lilligant's ability to sweep with just a grass move, which is more resisted than bug, and Lilligant also has noticeably lower SpA than Volcarona. I mean, it'll sweep most of the time, but there will also be plenty of things 4x resisting grass moves that won't be 2HKO'd by the grass attack. If you wish to give it a try though, you will definitely need Petal Dance if going mono-attack. I am sure it will change a lot of 3HKOs to 2HKOs with Petal Dance instead of Giga Drain.

You can give mono-attack Volcarona a try too I guess. Probably Protect / Sub / QD / Bug Buzz or Signal Beam ... Signal Beam to bypass Sound Proof, but the lower base power does hurt (I'm still glad Signal Beam Volcarona is available in BW2 now though).

Alternatively, the most obvious other choice is Dragonite @ Leftovers. Protect/Sub/DD/Dragon Claw ensures Dnite to be at full health (assuming no weather) after being fully setup. Not sure that that will go well pairing with Garchomp as your last pokemon though. Garchomp is very hard to replace with its unique combo of speed, attack, and ground typing. Until Volt Absorb Raikou is released, Garchomp is your fastest electric-immune pokemon that can stat boost. ... except for Whiscash.

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Would Britscor not be a possible option in this case? It has reasonable base speed, great bulk, agility, and great coverage with acrobatics and EQ. I'm basing this on OU knowledge mind, and I don't know how it would fare in the subway. It doesn't offer the bonus of rough skin, but sand veil can be just as handy.

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There's certainly some appeal, but the difficulty here is moveslots. Protect is a given for setting up on a Truant opponent, but if I want to boost speed with Agility, and boost Attack to +6 with Swords Dance, I'm left with just one attack, and I'm not sure Acrobatics alone is enough (mono Earthquake is out due to how many things are immune). But Acrobatics does hit pretty darn hard!

Another issue is that when Gliscor has to come in and kill something without being able to freely set up on a Truant opponent, it's a lot more vulnerable than Garchomp because it's not quite as fast initially. For example, Garchomp can always switch into a Timid Jynx Fake Out and then outspeed and KO with Earthquake. Gliscor only speed ties, and thus risks getting mashed by Blizzard.

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@Chinese Dood: Thanks! Nice catch on Own Tempo Lilligant. Doubt Whiscash is strong enough initially to make a Dragon Dance set work, but the thought of sweeping with a Whiscash gives me a big grin. :) And yeah, mono-attacking Dragonite doesn't really pair too well with Garchomp, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be the "best" Primary sweeper on a Durant team, particularly given how well it works on more traditional cripple-sweep teams.

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Nope, the opponent will stay in, so long as it has some move that could potentially hurt you. So once your opponent is Entrained, you can usually fully set up unless it Explodes or dies to a held Toxic Orb or the like.

Note that Volt Switch only saves the opponent if used on the turn you first use Entrainment. Otherwise, you'll switch on the loafing around turn, and Protect on each turn where the opponent could act, and Protect doesn't just stop Volt Switch damage; it also prevents Volt Switch's letting the opponent switch in a new pokemon.

Also note that the AI typically prioritizes choosing a move that could KO your poke if successful, so on Volt Switchers with a Fire attack (which hits Durant's 4x weakness), as long as the Volt Switch isn't quite powerful enough to OHKO while the Fire attack is, you can still typically Entrainment and set up (though you'll lose Durant). If the Volt Switch could OHKO too, the opponent may still choose it first turn, so be careful.

Did you ever have a problem with Prankster Taunt? Thundarus 4 in particular seems like a huge problem due to Prankster Taunt, Volt Switch, and a Ground immunity, meaning you'll have to be locked in to Outrage.

Nope, the opponent will stay in, so long as it has some move that could potentially hurt you. So once your opponent is Entrained, you can usually fully set up unless it Explodes or dies to a held Toxic Orb or the like.

Note that Volt Switch only saves the opponent if used on the turn you first use Entrainment. Otherwise, you'll switch on the loafing around turn, and Protect on each turn where the opponent could act, and Protect doesn't just stop Volt Switch damage; it also prevents Volt Switch's letting the opponent switch in a new pokemon.

Also note that the AI typically prioritizes choosing a move that could KO your poke if successful, so on Volt Switchers with a Fire attack (which hits Durant's 4x weakness), as long as the Volt Switch isn't quite powerful enough to OHKO while the Fire attack is, you can still typically Entrainment and set up (though you'll lose Durant). If the Volt Switch could OHKO too, the opponent may still choose it first turn, so be careful.

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How did you deal with turn 1 explosions after you Entrainment? Or since they don't OHKO Durant, did they usually not open with explode?

So on the topic of Durant, and stop me if I'm wrong because I don't even dabble in the subway, but wouldn't a bulky, slow Focus Sash Durant be better. That way the AI can volt switch on Durant, only to have the Pokemon they bring in get truant. And with the proper EV spread, Fake Out users surely could be beaten too. On my phone so sorry if it's not the prettiest post :)

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Did you ever have a problem with Prankster Taunt? Thundarus 4 in particular seems like a huge problem due to Prankster Taunt, Volt Switch, and a Ground immunity, meaning you'll have to be locked in to Outrage.

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I've never had a problem with Thundurus 4 (or Tornadus 4, which also has Prankster Taunt). Part of it might be luck, in that the priority Taunt only matters if the Taunter is in the lead, and since the legendary trainers include all 4 types of each legendary, I haven't had to face it in the lead much. But when I have faced it, I can't remember it ever having lead with anything but an attack. I know it's Volt Switched, and I certainly believe it's Discharged too. I suspect this is a case of the AI preference for attacking when it has a move that it believes can OHKO.

Also, against Thundurus, I typically immediately switch to Garchomp. Garchomp doesn't really mind a Taunt too much in this situation (though as noted above I honestly don't remember him ever eating a Taunt on the switch), and though Thundurus is faster, the best that Thundurus 4 can do to Chomp is Focus Blast, and Chomp can hit back and KO with Outrage. Yeah, that leaves Garchomp locked into an attack, but usually, that's fine, since if Garchomp is KOed, I get to bring in Durant for free and then set up Cloyster.

How did you deal with turn 1 explosions after you Entrainment? Or since they don't OHKO Durant, did they usually not open with explode?

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I don't recall any turn 1 Explosions against Durant, and suspect that's because, as you say, Durant resists them and so usually survives. However, the AI is certainly somewhat erratic as to when it decides to Explode. I've had stuff explode right away after I switch in Cloyster (turn 3) but I've also had it hold off on exploding until I've had time to set up fully (the final Protect turn before I start attacking). Why the AI chooses to explode when it does isn't always clear, and may include some random factor, so I can't guarantee that I won't face a turn 1 Explosion at some point.

That is obviously not as lightning fast as, say, lead Closter sweeping Peterko style, but it certainly seems faster than Whimsicott crippling for Dragonite set ups, which is definitely a plus. But how often does that occur?

lol I've been thinking that Durant may finally provide the way for me to get Emolga on a 70+ win streak in singles. Obviously this is terrible, but a set of Protect/Charge Beam/Agility/Air Slash (or HP Flying for reliability), with Focus Sash and perhaps with Motor Drive for Volt Switch immunity, would be so satisfying to sweep with!

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@Atsync:
Maybe 2/3 of the time (quite likely more, but this is a conservative number), things go exactly according to plan, and I have that 12 turn battle, give or take a turn or so. If Durant is KOed after Entraining, the battle can be a turn faster, since I'll get a free switch in rather than switching on the loafing turn. It's important to remember this and alternate Shell Smash/Protect rather than the usual Protect/Shell Smash after a Durant KO, since otherwise you won't be in sync with the opponent's loafing turns. If one of the opponent's pokes is particularly bulky, it may take an extra turn or two to finish (two turns on the lead poke, since I'll stack an extra protect in between my attacks, one turn on a second or third poke, usually getting my sash broken after my first attack fails to OHKO).

The other times, things don't go quite as smoothly. I may have to immediately switch to Chomp, lose it in a few turns, and then bring back Durant and set up Cloyster. (Though occasionally an immediate switch to Chomp ends up speeding things, if I switch in, dance once, and then attack 3 times for a 5 turn win). Cloyster may set up and still die (occasionally I'll Entrainment set up with Chomp first and lose it instead), and I'll then use Durant (if still alive) to set up the other poke. I might have to take a few turns to stick an Entrainment on a poke with Protect that can't really hurt Durant much, etc.

All in all, though, the matches go pretty quickly. The team doesn't get the lighting fast Attack/Attack/Attack win matches that my Garchomp/Ferrothorn/Suicune team sometimes got, but compared to some of the slow Calm Mind/Sub/Calm Mind/Calm Mind/Sub/Calm Mind/Rest etc. type battles I'd have setting up Suicune, it's much faster. And don't get me started on the fights where Suicune has to stall out Vaporean (even Peterko's team had to deal with these slow Suicune grinds, though battles where Suicune wasn't needed go much faster for him). On average, then, I'd say this team outspeeds a typical "heavy set-up" team, even if it doesn't use cripplers (like my Garchomp/Ferrothorn Suicune), and isn't too much slower than a light or occasional set up team like Peterko's Cloyster/Garchomp/Suicune or ~Mercury~'s Gengar/Garchomp/Suicune.

So don't let the fear of slow matches keep you from trying Durant, though remember that the use of Cloyster and accordingly needing only three Shell Smashes speeds things compared to sweepers using slower boosting moves.

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To continue the above, once in a great while things still find a way to go pretty long. Today I had a long fight with a lead Bastiodon 3 (@Leftovers Stone Edge/Fissure/Double Team/Iron Defense)

I Entrained on the first turn while it Iron Defensed. I probably should have switched to Chomp, but instead went to Cloyster. On each of my Protect turns, it set up, meaning it had +6 defense and +2 evasion before I started attacking. I missed several Icicle Spears, and even when they landed, I needed one of my 5 hits to crit to do any sort of serious damage. And since I was protecting every other round, it racked up a fair bit of Leftovers healing. Eventually I was able to take it out, but it took a while, and ate a lot of Protect's PP. If the PP got much lower, I'd have switched to Chomp on the loaf turn and set it up instead, taking advantage of its better type matchup on Bastiodon while leaving Cloyster enough PP to set up later if Garchomp were killed by the second or third poke.

I wasn't ever in any real danger, being that even acting only every other turn, Bastiodon would have been easy to stall out, but it still meant the battle took much longer than usual, and it was probably my longest ever battle with the team. For reference, I could have stalled Bastiodon out because it only had 10 combined PP on its attacking moves and once those moves were out of PP, I could have merrily switched every turn or just grinded it out by slowly doing damage (even with a lot of misses) with 48 Icicle Spears without needing to Protect between them. Worst case scenario, I could even have gotten Durant in on the stalling act while waiting to drain Stone Edge and Fissure of PP, since it could just sync its loafs with the Bastiodon's and Protect every turn.

To continue the above, once in a great while things still find a way to go pretty long. Today I had a long fight with a lead Bastiodon 3 (@Leftovers Stone Edge/Fissure/Double Team/Iron Defense)

I Entrained on the first turn while it Iron Defensed. I probably should have switched to Chomp, but instead went to Cloyster. On each of my Protect turns, it set up, meaning it had +6 defense and +2 evasion before I started attacking. I missed several Icicle Spears, and even when they landed, I needed one of my 5 hits to crit to do any sort of serious damage. And since I was protecting every other round, it racked up a fair bit of Leftovers healing. Eventually I was able to take it out, but it took a while, and ate a lot of Protect's PP. If the PP got much lower, I'd have switched to Chomp on the loaf turn and set it up instead, taking advantage of its better type matchup on Bastiodon while leaving Cloyster enough PP to set up later if Garchomp were killed by the second or third poke.

I wasn't ever in any real danger, being that even acting only every other turn, Bastiodon would have been easy to stall out, but it still meant the battle took much longer than usual, and it was probably my longest ever battle with the team. For reference, I could have stalled Bastiodon out because it only had 10 combined PP on its attacking moves and once those moves were out of PP, I could have merrily switched every turn or just grinded it out by slowly doing damage (even with a lot of misses) with 48 Icicle Spears without needing to Protect between them. Worst case scenario, I could even have gotten Durant in on the stalling act while waiting to drain Stone Edge and Fissure of PP, since it could just sync its loafs with the Bastiodon's and Protect every turn.

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I am playing around with Durant and have a few things that might interest you to hear a bout.

A speed boost/swords dance blaziken can alternate protect/swords dance AND get the +6 speed boost as well. Then can Baton Pass the +6/+6 to any pokemon you want (Including garchomp or a super defensive but low attacker)

I gave Blaziken double kick (only 30 power but seemed to 2HKO everything that doesn't resist from what I've seen)

Gave Garchomp Dual Chop with Wide Lens for times I baton pass to him instead of just sweeping with Blaziken.

So far so good but probably not as good as Cloyster. Just messing around and trying to be different.

Any thoughts on if a Speed Boost Baton Passing Blaziken passing to another pokemon could be more ideal for sweeping?

Hey, NoCheese, very excited to see you using Rough Skin Garchomp. It's a much more useful ability than Sand Veil when you're against the AI. I've been thinking that's the next update to Peterko's team (and really, for anyone else using Chomp) for the past few weeks now. Glad to see someone took notice of its availability and put it into action, on a good streak no less.

So don't let the fear of slow matches keep you from trying Durant, though remember that the use of Cloyster and accordingly needing only three Shell Smashes speeds things compared to sweepers using slower boosting moves.

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Well that's reassuring. I will probably try it out at some point in the future. I'd be curious to see how something like Omaster or Gorebyss would go over Cloyster. Cloyster is probably better because of the sheer power of Icicle Spear (plus it breaks Focus Sash and Sturdy), but I see no reason why other Shell Smashers couldn't work.

A speed boost/swords dance blaziken can alternate protect/swords dance AND get the +6 speed boost as well. Then can Baton Pass the +6/+6 to any pokemon you want (Including garchomp or a super defensive but low attacker)

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Baton Pass is currently illegal on Speed Boost Blaziken because it's an egg move. Only male Speed Boost Blaziken have been released so it can't pass on Speed Boost to any offspring, making it illegal with any egg moves.

The basic idea was to set up Tailwind with Tornadus while Wailord uses Protect. Then Tornadus sets up Rain Dance and Wailord fires off incredibly powerful Water Spouts. Water Gem was chosen for Wailord because it acts as a Choice Specs for the first Spout, allowing her to KO, or at least do massive damage to, both opponents. Scald is a back up for when Wailord's health is low. Ice Beam provides some extra coverage.

Jolteon was chosen to handle the bulky water types that Wailord has trouble with. A timid nature over modest and Thunderbolt over Thunder were chosen to give extra reliability in the event that Tailwind and/or Rain Dance ran out. Shadow Ball and HP: Ice to round out coverage and because Jolteon has basically nothing else.

The major threats to this team were bulky waters that Wailord couldn't do much damage to and could use an annoying move, namely Trick Room Slowbro and Slowking. Bulky grass types and water immune pokes could be problematic, but the rest of our team could handle them pretty well so we could work around them. Kingdra could be threatening as well due to its x4 water resistance and possibility of having Swift Swim. Strong priority and Fake Out users could cause some issues too by reducing Wailord's health before she gets off a Water Spout and interrupting Tornadus' set up, respectively.

We lost to some pretty annoying hax. The opponent leads with Gigalith #493 and Meganium #212. Meganium sets up Light Screen and Gigalith Sandstorms while Wailord Protects and Tornadus Tailwinds. Light Screen would have been an only slight inconvenience, but then Meganium proceeds to Swagger Wailord and Tornadus. Swaglord hits itself 3 times in a row before dieing while Tornadus engages in a Rain Dance/Sandstorm war with Gigalith (in hindsight, we should have just killed Gigalith). It comes down to Jolteon and Gallade vs Cradily and Scarf Torterra. Jolteon barely misses out on the OHKO with HP:Ice on Torterra due to Light Screen, allowing it to KO Gallade and itself with Wood Hammer (Tailwind was down). Between Cradily's Stockpiles and Light Screen, Jolteon couldn't damage it enough to defeat it. We definitely could have played the match better, but the confusion hax at the start of the match played a big part in our loss.

We weren't expecting this team to be really successful, but it's a lot of fun to use. Wailord is awesome, purple Wailord is even more awesome, and blasting opponents with torrential Water Spouts is great.

This is the same Tornadus used in our previous streak with Marowak. Tornadus’s goal is to get a tailwind and rain dance off before being knocked out. This drastically supports himself and Wailord but is a little tedious to accomplish. Focus Sash ensures both moves are set up before Wailord uses water spout unless both opponents double target me and manage to knock me out. Hurricane is the move of choice, it has great power which is a nice change from air slash which didn’t do much of anything the last time I used it. Hurricane is especially useful for grass pokemon who resist water type moves and the chance to confuse is greatly appreciated. Grass knot is to take out bulky waters and usually takes out most bulky waters with ease, minus rindo berry holders, suicune, slowbro, slowking and vaporeon. However, this is all based on if I get a chance to attack. Tornadus exists only to support wailord so we can launch massive water spout after water spout in the rain. If a round goes well I usually get off one or two attacks. We have walked away from many battles not losing a single pokemon. Ev’s allow for max amount of power. I opted for the increase in health over speed to keep me in the game longer. With no speed investment and a tailwind boost, Tornadus out speeds everything in the subway. The added health does help with weaker foes who do not do as much damage as a stabbed stone edge. I am currently considering dropping grass knot for taunt since we lost by a dumb meganium that wouldn’t stop swaggering and light screening our brains out. Gallade carries leaf blade so I'm not sure how big of a loss it will be.

Gallade is my back up and fills a great niche. I needed physical attacker not weak to ice that also has a priority move. I haven’t had much problem with speed and I like the added power. Gallade out speeds everything in tailwind, if it’s up. Close combat destroys blissey unless it has chople berry and is my go to nuke for tough pokemon. Leaf blade hits water types and psycho cut is a good stab move that hits random pokemon like tentacruel and other fighting types. Shadow sneak is my priority move and does a decent job, it can KO the lati twins after they are hit by a massive water spout. Gallade also has great special defense which helps out more times than not in the subway. He’s proven to be a great back up and has pulled through in many occasions. Life orb is mandatory, without it Gallade would be missing out on a few key kills.
I thoroughly enjoyed this team. We got to use freaking wailord and do well with it. It took a while to pull together but the end result was worth it. One reason we did well on our last try was because we only saw one slowking/slowbro the whole streak. We had one or two close calls and steamrolled many teams, including a few legendary teams. However, when we lose we lose hard, or we punch ourselves in the face because of a dumb swagger-meganium.

Well that's reassuring. I will probably try it out at some point in the future. I'd be curious to see how something like Omaster or Gorebyss would go over Cloyster. Cloyster is probably better because of the sheer power of Icicle Spear (plus it breaks Focus Sash and Sturdy), but I see no reason why other Shell Smashers couldn't work.

Baton Pass is currently illegal on Speed Boost Blaziken because it's an egg move. Only male Speed Boost Blaziken have been released so it can't pass on Speed Boost to any offspring, making it illegal with any egg moves.

I just lost my streak at 126 because, once again, I was watching tv and wasn't paying attention. When will I learn? Oh well, I acheived my goal and got even further. You know Entrainment Durant is broken if it can get someone like me this far. Probably gonna take a break from pokemon until BW2 now. Here's my team:

Gengar is my latest discovery. With Shadow Ball / Counter and Destiny Bond, it can usually take out two of the opposing pokemon, sometimes one or even three depending on the circumstances. It can net me an "auto-win" when it takes out two pokemon, because I have Entrainment + Truant and Protect. So many physical attackers lead on turn one trying to get an easy kill, but it only works against them. I love Gengar, but so many things in the subway can render it useless (Flinch, Burn, Sandstorm, Hail, priority, etc). Still, its abilities to get cheap kills are unmatched.

Durant is still the same monster it always has been. Thanks to its speedy Entrainment, Dragonite can set up and sweep. Unless there's weather or something, Dragonite usually has three 'lives' by the time it has set up, the Substitute, Multiscale, and Dragonite itself. Dragonite is truly amazing thanks to Multiscale. It really wants Roost but I don't have room for it on the moveset.

Congratulations on making Heatran work for you Jumpman. It was interesting to read through the formation of your team. I look forward to hearing more about it in the future.

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Thanks, I posted it for you guys especially (hence the rather tedious employment of anchor tags!). I also mainly posted it because I feel the Hall is really, really engaging and fun theorymon that anyone can partake in even if you don't actually want to play it. It's really a logic game when you think about it, since everything is 1v1 (or 2v2) and theoretically you can indeed arrive at a set or sets for a given pokemon that can "beat" the Hall, whereas in 3v3 play such endeavors are kind of impossible.

And I say "beat" mainly because of hax items like BP, Lax Incense and Quick Claw (QC to an extent, if you can lose to just one QC activation your Hall set isn't very good). Shortly after I posted I faced this piece of shit:

And lost at 307 to 0.25% odds when I missed one explosion (111% min) and then with specs HP Grass too (153% min). It was really lame at the time considering I had gone out of my way to insure against losses like this by moving HP Grass to my slower Tran as I described after losing to Gastrodon because Boom missed one, but I'm back up at 350 or something (after a loss at 177 to Tyranitar because I'd had "Flash Fire" checked off on the Smogon Damage Calc which incorrectly boosts all SpA instead of just Fire attacks and therefore miscalculated Earth Power/HP Grass killing one Tyra every time). I decided not to log every battle after losing to Whiscash partly because "fuck this who cares" and partly because it obviously saves time.

I'm harping on the (doubles) Hall partly because I wanted to encourage others to theorymon it up but with NoCheese recent exploits with TruAnt that is slightly less necessary. Though after one time like five weeks ago that I lost to Jolteon at like 90 cause I didn't Explode (I beat Jolteon 100% of the time with Scarf Boom), I adopted a "if you can beat em" mentality and thought of Jolteon's own merits for Doubles Hall, mainly because it beat me with the almost equally as doubles-marvelous Lava Plume near-clone in Discharge. I came up with something like:

Zam is 352 Speed so that's why 354/353. With a combination of HP Water, HP Grass and Magnet Rise, Jolteon should have enough to beat ground types, but things like Tyranitar would be lame to face cause of Sand negating Sash (which may be better on Jolt2 than Specs). Double Chomp would be reliable too with Sash/CB at 332 speed to get Weavile and reliably beat Slowbro as well.

Ok I don't normally post teams in planning before I actually try them, but considering I have very little time to RNG and train stuff, I thought I'd post it to see what people thought. Be nice lol:

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I think Flash may be the way to go with Shuppet, since with Thunderwave you can rather reliably get Draggy set up. You're just going to want to make sure to have a second that can handle Ice Types, and Shuckle is a good idea even if only for Stealth Rock support. SR is probably the best way to help Dragonite out against pokes 2 and 3 because screw Sturdy and Sash, etc.

I'm new to the community, but I have a pretty respectable super doubles streak going right now. Some of the pokes on my team use their unreleased dream world abilities though; all their movesets would be legal if their dream world abilities were released.

Does this thread allow streaks using unreleased dream world abilities? My apologies if this was mentioned previously in the thread, I scanned the first handful of posts and didn't see anything that answered this.