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I have been making inquiries to buy a new piano in the last weeks, and I’d like to share my impressions on a few pianos that I have tried and also some information I have gathered.

A few words about my situation : I have been playing for the last 12 years on a Technics PX-552M DP. Although I find it OK to practice and play, I have noticed recently that when I go back to an acoustic piano, I have difficulties adjusting to the keyboard. Most (90%) of my playing is done at night when the kids sleep, so that I need either a digital piano or an acoustic with a silent system.

I have tested several DPs and APs:

Yamaha Avantgrand : I could test the N1 and the N3. No doubt for me : the keyboard is excellent, feels like a C3 (that I could test immediately afterwards). TRS is a nice feature but is in my opinion absolutely not necessary. The N3 and the N1 have different keytops. I could not really feel the difference. I would still prefer the N2 over the N1 for two reasons : I think the N2 looks much much better than the N1. And also the N2 is (for odd reasons…) 9 cm shorter than the N1, which in my particular case is an advantage for the N2. I have asked Yamaha France whether I could test a N2 with them : it turns out that they do not have anymore a N2 for testing. A dealer told me that though the N2 is an excellent piano, it is way overpriced compared to the N1. This particular dealer told me that most customers interested in the N2 eventually opt for an acoustic piano with a silent system for a comparable price. By the way, the N2 in France is at ~11500 euros catalogue price (~15000 US$). The N2 review by M. Peckham indicates that you can buy a N2 between 8000 and 10000 US$. If that is true, it means that either the N2s are cheaper in the US, or that one should negociate at least a 35% rebate… The fact that Yamaha France does not have any N2 for test (and does not plan to have any in the future) might mean that the Avantgrand N series will soon upgrade, but that is just a personal guess.

Yamaha NU1 : the upright mechanics equivalent of an Avantgrand. My feeling was that the mechanics of the keyboard is not very good (it turns out that to be a B1-type action). I personally would not recommend the NU1 as for not much more money the N1 has a much better action.

Kawai CA-95 : before testing, I had read many very positive reviews of the CA-95. I must say I was disappointed both by the action (quite good for a DP but much less satisfactory than the N1 action) and by the sound that I found too bright. I was really disappointed because from the reviews I had read, I thought it might have been a good option to upgrade my old DP, and wait another few years to get a real good acoustic piano.

Roland LX-15 : I did not like the keyboard nor the sound. Again it is a very personal statement that others might not share, but I felt that it was worse than my Technics.

I then tested a few acoustic pianos, for which I need a quality silent system as I will mostly play silent at least in the next 3-4 years.

Yamaha vs other silent systems : I must say that given the history of Yamaha making both DPs and silent systems at a large scale for many years, I tend to think that the Yamaha system is better than others. I actually have only tried the Bechstein Vario silent system, which I have found to be very bad. I tried it on a C. Bechstein 116 millenium. When you play the acoustic piano, it has a very well balanced action, an excellent warm and round sound… the transition with the silent system with a very metallic and aggressive sound is devastating! I have read in other threads that the Vario system can be tuned to be much better, but I would expect that on such an expensive system the default settings would be good enough, and they are not. By the way, it is interesting to compare the marketing videos for both the Vario system and the new Yamaha silent SH system. I feel that the Vario system is presented as an excellent system for serious pianists wanting the best sound, while the Yamaha SH system is presented as a fun toy (with explanations meant for people who have never ever seen a silent system). I don’t understand Yamaha’s marketing! More on Yamaha : in November 2012, I asked Yamaha France whether the silent SG system would soon be replaced. They answered very clearly that no update was scheduled. It turns out that in January 2013 they introduced the silent SH which they present as a revolution compared to the previous system. I thus have learned not to trust Yamaha… I did not get a chance to try the SH system, so I don’t know whether it is much better than the SG system.

Schimmel upright : I tried the Konzert K122. I liked it a lot, and I thought that it was at least equivalent, if not better than the C. Bechstein millennium 116 (which is 5000 euros more expensive). I have read that C. Bechstein makes good pianos but that they are too expensive, I tend to agree with this statement. The C. Bechstein dealer told me “In the piano business, Steinway and C. Bechstein have the leadership, at an equal level, all other brands are below”… Otherwise, Schimmel has an agreement with Yamaha to install the Yamaha silent system on their acoustic pianos. Various piano dealers have told me that Schimmel is the only brand that has such an agreement. This turns out to be not true, I have contacted Grotrian-Steinweg, and they also install the Yamaha silent system at their factory. I have not had the chance to try a Grotrian recently. I know from previous experience that I like a lot their action and sound, so I still have to find a Grotrian dealer to try them out and compare them with the Schimmel.

Yamaha uprights : I have tried the U1. No surprise : good action and reasonable sound. But after trying the Schimmel K122, it feels not subtle enough to me (it is also much cheaper I must say). I have tried very briefly a YUS1 and found it much better than the U1. I should try one again to compare to the Schimmel. I wish I could try the SE122, supposed to be made “European style” in a Yamaha-Bösendorfer collaboration, and which is roughly at the same price as the Schimmel K122. But these pianos are quite recent and difficult to find.

In the end, I still do not know what to do! I would not want to open the DP vs AP debate once again. If I lived alone, I would without hesitation buy an acoustic with silent system, probably a Schimmel or a Grotrian (unless the Yamaha SE122 surprises me). Now the N1 or N2 gives me the possibility to play a very good piano action, with a very nice sound (+ of course always in tune and practically maintenance free) : in my particular case it allows me to play through the speaker at a reasonable volume so that my family can hear me play without being too much disturbed by my playing; and that it quite important to me. If it were reasonably priced, I would go for the N2 I think, so I’ll check what can kind of deal I can get on a N2. The fact that Yamaha France is not promoting the N2 anymore is slightly disturbing… My other option would be to buy a not so expensive DP (Kawai CA65 or 95) and wait to move in the next years in a new house where I could install a nice acoustic piano in a somewhat isolated room. Still, I was quite disappointed by the Kawai sound, but I might have to try them again.

welcome to the board and thanks for sharing your experience with us.Now I haven't quite figured out, are you also asking for advice/recommendations or just wanted to share your impressions as you initially stated?

So for now I'd just like to state some thoughts and ask some questions I had while reading your post:First of all, in my opinion you can generally discard any dealer talk about supposed "market leadership". What matters is that you like the piano at hand!

Then, regarding the CA95: Did you try to change the parameters of the CA95 - for example set the Touch Response to "Heavy", the Voicing to "Mellow", or choose another preset like the Mellow Grand?Though I have to say, if you were already disappointed with the CA95 action compared to your other choices, I don't believe you will grow to like it much. For me personally, the action was the selling point. Nowadays I use mine almost exclusively with software pianos.

Finally, it seems to me that you are most concerned about the action, and the sound is of second importance for your decision. At least you did not mention the sound as being a reason for your desire to upgrade from your current Technics DP. Is that right?

Bruno, thanks for your review. I'm interested in the quantification of your criticisms. For example, if you had to choose between the NU1 and the CA95, which would you tend to prefer?

Were you able to try these all out at the same store? Just wondering. I've found myself to be very inconsistent in my opinions of the same products when I have tried them at different stores. For example, I played an N2 in a nearby store a while back and hated it from top to bottom. Played a different one recently while on a trip and thought it was amazing. I don't think either was in poor condition. It was just my inconsistent ears, fingers, and mood.

I can feel your disappointment with DP's - most of us who switch between acoustic pianos and DPs feel in a similar way. You might want to take a look at the Nord Piano, though - it is a rather different type of compromise than Yamaha's or Kawai's: light weight (very portable if that counts!), rather convincing sounds (and a significant step up from Y/K in my opinion), BUT - and this might be a decisive minus for you - a rather unconvincing lightweight action.

Thank you very much for your reply. I am not looking specifically for advice/recommendations although I will be very happy to welcome them! This is rather about sharing some personal feelings about the pianos I tried and also sharing some information that I thought could be useful for others.

I agree about focusing about what I like on a piano and not about what I have heard about a particular brand. Actually I thought that the best strategy would be to blind-test various pianos... I still feel that it is difficult to test a piano and not be biased by what you know of the brand, price etc...

Concerning the CA-95, I did try the mellow grand preset. I found it better than the default setting but not quite satisfactory. But I still think that I will try the CA-95 again.

It is true that my main concern to upgrade is about the action : as I said, I've found difficult to play on acoustic pianos due to the difference in keyboard action with my current DP. Still sound is important to me (although I find the sound from my Technics quite satisfactory). From the DPs I tried, I preferred the Yamaha sound over the Kawai sound.

If I were in your situation I would definitely look at a Yamaha U3SH with the latest update to the silent system. Then for about the same price of an N2, you will then have a real piano in the house and a good digital piano with a real action all rolled into one.

It is quite disconcerting to read reports on pianoworld of how many people with much excitement and anticipation purchased Avantgrands, only to abandon them after a matter of months or a year or two because they turn out to be so unsatisfying as your only instrument, especially compared to an acoustic. When you tire of listening to the Yamaha samples on your U3SH, you simply turn a switch and you are then playing a real piano, and a pretty decent one too. That is what I call a genuine hybrid piano -- a real action, real hammers, real strings and a real soundboard.

Bruno, thanks for your review. I'm interested in the quantification of your criticisms. For example, if you had to choose between the NU1 and the CA95, which would you tend to prefer?

Hi,

I tried the NU1 and the CA95 at the same place. If I had to choose between both, I think I would pick the CA95. I was not convinced at all by the NU1, the action was in my opinion not very smooth. The CA95 has definitely a DP action, but a quite good action for a DP.

As you mention, the opinion about a piano might change with time and context. The day I tried the NU1, N1, N3, CA95, LX15 (+ U1, YUS1 and C3), I has only 2 hours. I probably need to do some more testing with more time and a more focused approach.

If I were in your situation I would definitely look at a Yamaha U3SH with the latest update to the silent system. Then for about the same price of an N2, you will then have a real piano in the house and a good digital piano with a real action all rolled into one.

Hi,

Thanks for this advice. I actually would prefer (in case I choose the silent AP option) the YUS1 which is not as loud as the U3 and has in my opinion a smoother action.

Originally Posted By: theJourney

It is quite disconcerting to read reports on pianoworld of how many people with much excitement and anticipation purchased Avantgrands, only to abandon them after a matter of months or a year or two because they turn out to be so unsatisfying as your only instrument, especially compared to an acoustic.

I have not found many reports of people being disappointed by Avantgrands on this forum, I rather have found enthusiastic reports so far...

I can feel your disappointment with DP's - most of us who switch between acoustic pianos and DPs feel in a similar way. You might want to take a look at the Nord Piano, though - it is a rather different type of compromise than Yamaha's or Kawai's: light weight (very portable if that counts!), rather convincing sounds (and a significant step up from Y/K in my opinion), BUT - and this might be a decisive minus for you - a rather unconvincing lightweight action.

Hi and thank you for the comment,

In my case portability is not important, while keyboard action is really important, so I think the Nord is probably not for me (as far as sound is concerned, I can always upgrade to software piano if I need to).

Thanks for this advice. I actually would prefer (in case I choose the silent AP option) the YUS1 which is not as loud as the U3 and has in my opinion a smoother action.

I have not found many reports of people being disappointed by Avantgrands on this forum, I rather have found enthusiastic reports so far...

Thanks again!

I agree with you about the quality improvement on the YUS1SH which would cost about the same. However, I would then spend a little more and get the YUS3SH. Since you can play the piano silently, being able to play loudly acoustically is not necessarily a bad thing! A little extra string length can make a big difference in tonal quality. Hopefully you will find a dealer where you can play them side by side.

Enjoy and savor the selection process; anticipation is a wonderful human pleasure!

You haven't said whether you played any of the DPs using headphones, or if you did, whether they were your own. But you are interested in DPs mainly for their ability to be silent.

What I certainly discovered when playing DPs for the first time three years ago was not to rely on the DPs' own speakers because they are of very variable quality, and the acoustic of the showroom can mask a lot of deficiencies. And if playing slab DPs without speakers, you're relying on what system the store had attached them to.

I's say that the only true test is to bring your own high-quality headphones and use them to compare all the DPs, that way ruling out different acoustics as well as indifferent speakers. And the only true way to compare key actions per se is to play the DPs switched off, because the tonal quality of the sound can alter your perception of the action. (My experience is that a bright tonal picture gives the illusion of light key action). Of course, that's something you can't do with acoustics....

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I'm french and recently buyed a Yamaha AvantGrand N2. If your are near Paris, there is one store in Paris where I've been able to try it: Paul Beuscher, near Bastille (But it's not where I buyed it...)

For the story, I choosed the N2 over the N1, for the following reasons that I have in memory for now (and also because I had the budget):

You haven't said whether you played any of the DPs using headphones, or if you did, whether they were your own. But you are interested in DPs mainly for their ability to be silent.

What I certainly discovered when playing DPs for the first time three years ago was not to rely on the DPs' own speakers because they are of very variable quality, and the acoustic of the showroom can mask a lot of deficiencies. And if playing slab DPs without speakers, you're relying on what system the store had attached them to.

I's say that the only true test is to bring your own high-quality headphones and use them to compare all the DPs, that way ruling out different acoustics as well as indifferent speakers. And the only true way to compare key actions per se is to play the DPs switched off, because the tonal quality of the sound can alter your perception of the action. (My experience is that a bright tonal picture gives the illusion of light key action). Of course, that's something you can't do with acoustics

Hi and thanks for the advice. I actually did as you propose : I always bring my headphones (at least two among those : Grado SR80, Sennheiser HD570 and Sennheiser HD 25 ii). I like to try the DPs both with open and closed headphones. I also practice with sound off to check the action.

I would like to share with you and forum my modest experience about N1.Just like you I was hesitating between Kawai 95/65 and N1 (N2).

Now, after 1 week, I would say, that N1 I already purchased, was the right one for me and my son. But there are some warnings you have to know:

N1 has very complicated MIDI implementation, which is not written in details on papers that supply the instrument. It sends poly-pressure events to software (VST) instruments and thus results dynamic issues with software pianos (say QL Pianos and Ivory II).The highest velocity on upper register I have recorded was 124 and on lowest 114. Usually "fff" on N1 is represented by 96 and ffff at most 108.There was a colleague who explained the same issue struggling with it. He/she added some "extra velocity" in Ivory. Most of the time, I used to play with QL Piano and such options are omitted by East West. However, the world is big and salvation lurks around the corner! N1 is my recording tool. So, in Cubase man can compress/expand the velocity using the so called "modifiers" to reach the needed result. Ration of (expansion) 17:20 is good enough.

From other hand Kawai PDs are really very useful as a master keyboards maintaining external standalone (or via host VST) instruments.I am talking again about velocity curves. My colleague plays CS(?) 65 and redirects the midi to Ivory II. It sounds very convincing after some make-up (EQ and Impulse response reverberation). In my personal opinion, most DPs sound sources generate MP3-alike sound quality using data compression. The only exception on this I might say is N series of Yamaha. Frankly, I was also deeply surprised when I tested for first time last year in Stuttgart. Personally, I am not found of Yamahas sound at all, but as a DP it has brighter dynamic range compared to all sampled piano libraries I have tested (Galaxy II, Vienna, East West QLPianos and Ivory II). So, if you are prepared to substitute the sound of any DP with Piano libraries, be aware that ppp to ff is the common range of most software instruments.fff and ffff are an obsession...

Compared to N1, N2 has better key top indeed and as a sound system stays also on much higher level.But it is believed, when you listen to the sound through headphones or start recording – all N's are the same, unless you record with external microphones, I have already seen on N2 and N3.If I have to be certainly hones, N1 sounds system is also good, but definitely all Ns need external reverberation. The build-in one is modest.Kawai has solved this much better.

In my studio I conducted a test – mixing surround mics of Stainway's library from QL Pianos (+ambience "Piano hall 4) together with N1. The additional reverb applied to N1 was "Schubert hall" (Altiverb). The result was amazing.

If you need DP piano just for rehearsing, N1/2 are pretty OK, however for main instrument I would not suggest it.I found the loops of the sound across lowest - mid register as a sore subject... There is no sound system (N2/3) that might address this issue.

So, if you are prepared to substitute the sound of any DP with Piano libraries, be aware that ppp to ff is the common range of most software instruments.fff and ffff are an obsession......If you need DP piano just for rehearsing, N1/2 are pretty OK, however for main instrument I would not suggest it.I found the loops of the sound across lowest - mid register as a sore subject... There is no sound system (N2/3) that might address this issue.

This seems to argue again for a real hybrid instrument that allows you to really play piano when household or neighbor conditions permit...

I am still not convinced that the Avantgrands are a satisfying, long-term replacement option for an acoustic piano for most pianists.

Thank you very mich for sharing all your experience with the Avantgrand. I sure will use this information. Like many others, I feel that the Avantgrand concept is very interesting, but Yamaha could have made a much better instrument if they had been more careful in their design.

Hi Friends, I'm a classical pianist from Italy. In the last weeks I was looking for a DP for practicing at home using my Ultrasone headphones. I was thinking about buying an Avantgrand N1, I tried it and I'm quite satisfied with the action, although not impressed by the sound. In addition the N1 price is a little high for a DP, and at the same cost I could buy an acoustic with silent. But I have no space in my new home for an acoustic.

In these days however I'm planning to follow another way: a Roland PHAIII action (700NX or HP 505/507) + a performing laptop + a piano software (Ivory II or Galaxy Vintage or Quantum Leap). I don't know if this idea is better, but an AG as a midi controller seems a little expensive...

You have to take into account that US prices are usually given without sales tax/value added tax. This is because the rate of sales tax/value added tax that is applied varies from state to state. The phrasing on US sites is mostly "$-amount + tax".

To really compare prices you'd have to add the french VAT rate to the dollar price to get a feeling for the real price and if you are being overcharged or not.

So the $8,000 would be €7,200 including the 20% french VAT-rate, the $10,000 would be €9,000. Thomann, Europe's largest online retailer lists the AvantGrand N2 at €11,200 so a €2,200 or $3,000 price difference even if you factor in VAT.

The AvantGrand N2 was fist introduced in 4/2009 and it's listed as 'out of stock' on most of the retailer websites so I'd assume - as you did - that a replacement for the N2 is due shortly.

This might offer you the opportunity for a serious rebate, though if a retailer wants to clear its inventory.

Lourmat, if you only focus on software pianos and don't feel the need for playing organs (Hammond or Farfisa) I'd suggest you to also look into the Kawai VPC1 (www.kawaivpc.com).

It's basically a MIDI-Controller that's focused only on software pianos. It uses a pretty decent action (a modified Kawai RM3 - similar to the one used in the Kawai MP10) has no internal sound generator and offers you customized touch curves for Ivory II, Pianoteq, Galaxy D and others.

the idea to use Roland 700NX is not the thing you will be happy with.In fact, an year ago, I was planing absolutely the same, but when I played half an hour on Rolands keyboard I reconsidered. Neither pp, nor ppp is possible on this instrument. This is a very good stage piano, but not for practicing. CP1(5) from Yamaha sounds better, I thing. Recently Kawai issues a new master keyboard controller. Check NAMM 2013. Looks very convincing.They have also a heavy stage piano with brilliant action for very acceptable price. (MP10, I think).

@ Nigeth As for as N1 and N2 – well, I had to wait 2 and a half months to get finally N1 in my studio/atelier in Sofia. The very first my idea was to order it from France (Centre Chopin, Paris). The price was about 150 € less compared to all other stores.Unfortunately there was a problem with the delivery to Sofia.After that I called 2 stores in Germany. Both informed me that I should wait till 15. Jan. 2013, because there is no any N1s in their stores, except the demo models.Next try was to purchase it from United Kingdom. At first glance the price was unbeatable – 4900£ inc. VAT, but the corespondency with the store was lost.I called many times, received promises that N1 is on disposal, but after 1-2 weeks no E-mails, no feed back. Any how. The need of the instrument was quiet urgent. I sold my last master keyboard and needed a new replacement, considering that 12 TV films were on my desk for symphony orchestration and I had to struggle with 5 octaves synthesizer, from other hand my 6 years old son had to begin his musical lessons...Total drama.Finally I sad to my self "just be patient" and accepted to wait till middle of last month when I have got it form Yamaha Bulgaria with 12% (5690 € inc. VAT) personal discount as a regular customer of Yamaha.

During all that time, from almost every store I was informed that N2 might be delivered immediately (say 1 week or so).Therefore, I do not expect any replacement of N2 at the moment. It is available, but who knows... However, the truth is, I also saw it during the last year as "sold out" on many stores, mostly in Germany.

EDITDear Nigeth, my browser did no refresh and obviously you have given the advise in your second writings to our colleague before my post to appear.

Bruno: If you are building a new home and want a dedicated sound insultated music room my advice is to have it sound proofed during contruction by some acoustic professional with sound insulation in mind. Don't assume you can put an acoustic in a back room and all will be insulated. Not so.