Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/dthomas/1996/thomas.0696

From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jun 5 01:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41007 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prima Facie Extermination
Date: 4 Jun 1996 13:03:25 -0400
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Mike Curtis wrote:
>Some of us aren't confused any more. Some of us till don't
>get what your doing. I know what you are doing. I have no >doubts.
Absolute surety, when it's the real thing, is of comforting value. Please
share.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 4 19:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40965 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: 4 Jun 1996 13:08:37 -0400
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M. Giwer wrote:
>Very good. Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>common among many people. It runs something like 25% in the US.
Perhaps the word is "did" run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years. The
rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced the
incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer. Subsequent
investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
effective in this regard.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 6 06:56:18 PDT 1996
Article: 41308 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lying about atomic bombing and Japanese surrender
Date: 5 Jun 1996 22:01:18 -0400
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J.M. Ockerbloom writes:
>The only author I can think of that's proposed a number as high as you
>give is David Irving, a darling of the "Holocaust is a myth" set, and
>someone considered by most historians to be at best a questionable
source.
This is, at best, an uninformed statement. The conflict that exists
between David Irving and the trolls of academia has to do with his
interpretation of collected facts and figures, not the details themselves.
Irving is widely acknowledged, even by his severe critics, to have
collected, read and summarized more documents from the scattered National
Socialist archives than anyone else in the world. If you choose to try to
dismiss a portion of his work, please be honest and accurate about which
portion. Thank you.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 7 07:12:03 PDT 1996
Article: 41516 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 6 Jun 1996 17:47:40 -0400
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Rich Green wrote:
>I agree with
>you that CO2 is not a Bronsted-Lowry acid. It is, however, a Lewis
>acide, but that's beside the point.
OK, I'll buy that. And after reading this far in the thread I agree with
you that it is irrelevant, except that referring to CO2 as an acid is
about as clear as referring to water as an acid, which in a sense it is,
but.....
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 7 07:12:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41566 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 6 Jun 1996 18:05:45 -0400
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Having now read all 36 messages in this thread, it's obvious that CO2 has
little to do with it. Pardon my intrusion into a dung-flinging contest.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 7 07:12:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41578 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 6 Jun 1996 17:34:25 -0400
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Mike Curtis wrote:
>>>> But since it is an acid, it has nothing to do with quantity.
>>>>Whatever would react would "stick" as you so quaintly put it.--M.
Giwer
>
>>>With a strong acid, certainly. Prussic acid is weaker than CO2. --M.
Bilik
>
>> CO2 is not an acid.--M. Giwer
>
>He didn't say it was, idiot.--M. Curtis
Sure seems like he did. He's saying the CO2 is weaker than a strong acid
but stronger than Prussic acid. What other conclusion could be drawn?
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 7 07:12:05 PDT 1996
Article: 41579 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 6 Jun 1996 17:36:52 -0400
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Richard Schultz wrote:
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
: >Would Mr. Giwer consider CO2 dissolved in water an acid? Yes or no?
: That is not under discussion, deceitful one. The discussion is
: CO2, a gas, as you can plainly see.
It doesn't matter whether it's in the gas phase or in solution:
CO2 is an acid. Sorry Charlie.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
******
How does CO2 achieve this status without a proton to donate?
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 7 07:12:06 PDT 1996
Article: 41590 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 6 Jun 1996 18:02:05 -0400
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Richard Schultz wrote:
>Every time I think "he can't possibly produce something that will better
>prove his complete stupidity," I am proven wrong. Asking "what is the
>pH of CO2
Come on now, be fair about it. The question obviously intended to point
out that CO2 in the gaseous state has no pH (puissance hydrogen) value.
Since acid concentrations are commonly related to pH values, the
interpretation is that CO2 is not a Bronsted acid, nor would it typically
be called an acid in common useage. That's all.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jun 8 12:41:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41829 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 8 Jun 1996 02:30:40 -0400
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Mike Curtis wrote:
>>As opposed to conventionalist scholarship, which would go something like
>>this:
>
>Now that you'eve read my response to this, you know understand that
>what you presented isn't even "conventionalist" history. If you want
>to poke fun, I suggest you begin by backing up your assertions with
>checkable documentation. I suggest you START answering requests
>concerning where your unsubstantiated opinions come from. I suggest
>you behave like the historian you claim to be. Let's see some
>intellect that puts primary documentation with a thesis. Otherwise you
>are just another one of those trivializers with nothing much to offer
>other than opinion.
>
>The above is my opinion and it is backed up by your unsubstantiated
>posts to this board.
Compadre, my own opinion is that you would benefit first from dwelling on
how many pounds are in a ton, and then checking the loaded weight of the
largest aircraft in the world, circa 1996. After that, pull your head out
of your behind, clean out your ears, and open your mind. Then and only
then will you be prepared to participate in something besides the best
send-up I have seen in many a long day. This sequence has been damn near
priceless, and more revealing than a little about what unwarranted
prejudice, preconceptions, and ass-umptions do to folks.
Peace. And thanks to Ken McVay for making this all possible. :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jun 8 20:32:02 PDT 1996
Article: 41954 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 8 Jun 1996 02:40:29 -0400
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Message 1 of 2. This may be a repeat, first try appeared to bounce.
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
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I wasn't going to participate in this tasteless thread, but recent
circumstances have shown me the error of my sanctimonious ways.
Mike Curtis wrote:
>"Therefore 300,000,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Dresden" is
>pretty darn weak without actual RAF documents saying how what plane
>was loaded with what to go where.
Pretty darn weak is understating the case in one sense, right on in
another. It was proven months before, in the Pacific campaign when B-29s
first came into use, that concentrations of incendiaries of as little as
100,000 tons in a single aircraft were prone to spontaneous combustion,
particularly in warm weather. So the idea that one plane could accomodate
200,000 tons safely, or at all, is indeed ludicrous.
>This information is from what source and where can the affidavits be
>seen. What trial was this?
This should be casual even to the obvious observer. They were incendiary
bombs. It therefore was the oft alluded to Trial by Fire. (See "Loki's
My Name, Fire's My Game," Viking Press, pp. 69-63) The affidavits are
thought to have been destroyed by the evidence.
>>During the trial, it was not permitted to question the validity of the
>>charge, the evidence entered into the record, or the lack of forensic
>>evidence.
>
>The source of this view point is?
The decedent defendants.
>> In any case, there are numerous witnesses who confirm the dreadful
>>action: although they differ in many respects they agree on the central
>>charge -- Dresden was Bombed.
>
>No one seems to be denying it was bombed.
Awe contrairie, mon ami. Ken McVay stated:
>And how do you know (1) how many died at this "Dresden," and
>(2) that there was such a place as "Dresden" during this
>so-called "war?"
>
>The Dresden Museum itself cites 35,000 victims. You cite
>100,000. Therefore there was no bombing.
Mike Curtis continues his reply to Erhlich:
>Below is the same stupid
>conjecture used about the bombs above.
Be very careful when slinging shit at random--it splatters.
>>As to the population of the city, it is calculated that if 1 train
>>carrying 1,000 people to the city of Dresden arrived every hour for one
>>year the population of the city would be 8,760,000. But in 1946 the
>>population of the city was only 560,000. Therefore, 8,200,000 died in
the
>>bombing of Dresden. This is confirmed by an analysis of train records,
>>which show that, in fact, in 1943 _one train arrived every hour_. Of
>>course, trains also left at the same rate, but we know that they didn't
>>have any people on them.
>>
>>So much for the destruction of Dresden.
>
>So much for any evidence or proof at all. You call yourself an
>historian. I don't think I want to know who the hell you are.
Well, wishes do come true. It's obvious that you don't have a clue, nor
are you likely to.
I myself always emphasize the 'H' and therefore would (and oftimes do)
say, "*a* hhhiissstorian," but what the hell do I know either, eh? ;-)))
And in closing, let us never forget the credo of the Agnostic--"Can you
believe this shit!?"
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:45 PDT 1996
Article: 42340 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 9 Jun 1996 12:58:34 -0400
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Chuck Ferree wrote:
>The worst part with a bomb load of
>this magnitude, was when you finally found your target (s) and
>released all that weight, the airplane did thirty consecutive loops.
And still dizzy, after all these years! :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 9 21:21:47 PDT 1996
Article: 42350 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the undisciplined Wehrmacht
Date: 9 Jun 1996 09:23:51 -0400
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Ken McVay wrote:
>>Um, most take some issue here in that, *in general*, the
>>Wehrmacht was the better army compared to just about
>>everyone in the war. Analysis of WW2 battles that were
>>made to help develope a numerical battle simulator model
>>by Col. Dupuis of the US Army indicates that the average
>>German unit was 1.5 times more effective than an equivalent
>>American unit and 2.5 times more effective than a Soviet
>>one. Even when they were losing heavily in late 44 and
>>45 to the Red Army they still had a 1.5 to 1.8 advantage.
>
>I'd find that impossible to believe, with regard to the
>Wehrmacht on the eastern front (he himself makes a distinction
>between the eastern front and other areas). As Bartov points out, the
>Wehrmacht quickly degenerated into an ill-disguised mob (my
>phrase, not his). The jacket notes point out that the Germans
>themselves executed nearly 15,000 of their own troops in an
>attempt to maintain discipline. That suggests that they
>weren't completely successful.
I think in making the assessment it is important to distinguish between
regular German troops and the various units made up of conscripted or
volunteer foreign nationals, many of whom were used in Russia. The
Eastern front was a near certain death assignment in the last two years of
the war, and in fact many individual men were assigned there as a form of
punishment. The hopelessness of the campaign became apparent to some in
the winter of 42-43, and general knowledge shortly after that. It stands
to reason that discipline would crumble in what was fast becoming a mass
suicidal action.
As a non-scientific anecdote, my father was with the American 34th through
the entire Italian campaign. They fought German regulars who were
outmanned, outgunned and had no air support. Despite these handicaps he
said that they fought fiercely and bravely, earning certainly not the
affection but definitely the respect of those who drove them at great cost
up the peninsula. He has commented that the discussion of relative
abilities of the two forces was sometimes discussed, and the prevailing
opinion was to thank God they didn't have to oppose them on a basis of
equal strength and equipment.
That German units like the submarine service could sustain losses on the
order of 70% (I'm not sure of the exact figure) and still operate with
high morale indicates an unusual degree of mental toughness. I make these
comments purely in relation to the subject of individual fighting skill
and resolve on the field of battle. Japanese troops, while vilified and
ridiculed to a greater degree than the Germans (goofy looking little
slant-eyed nips), also showed remarkable tenacity, albeit with less
capable leadership. How many large combat units will willingly fight to
the death, nearly to a man? And a closing thought on that subject, how in
hell did the Russians get all those poor bastards to do the human wave bit
into the German guns? What a nightmare campaign that had to be!
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jun 10 12:17:18 PDT 1996
Article: 42468 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel
Date: 10 Jun 1996 13:09:25 -0400
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Oh, btw, Mr. Ehrlich. A friend of mine recently subscribed to AOL.
Subscribers to AOL, as you know, have the privilege of finding the
name behind the nick. He let me know what yours is.
Now, I woudn't dream of publishing it here (because I wouldn't want to
see your "cobbling" efforts diverted by those predatory net babes whom
you fear might disturb the equilibrium of your marriage).
But I do find it strange, since if I recall correctly you did tell us
that you _are_ an historian, that a cursory net search didn't turn up
anything that you've published. Then again, I recall that you did
make reference, in at least one post, to some "ghost writing" that
you've done. Are all your published works "ghosts", Mr. Ehrlich?
hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
***********
Now there's a methodology to take pride in. Sweetness and light.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jun 10 12:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 42469 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel
Date: 10 Jun 1996 13:42:13 -0400
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Yale Edeiken wrote (regarding Ehrlich606):
>The fact
>that someone who is basically a decent person who presents his opinions
>honestly and without bigotry cannot participate...
Thank you for the entirety of your remarks on this subject, you hit on an
important point.
I have long thought it an onerous mistake to create a tone in a newsgroup
(whose avowed purpose is to exchange information) that serves to drive
away people who are put off by the abrasiveness, without regard to their
philosophy or what they may add to the discussion. People, such as Ms.
Ostrov, who do this may have what in their minds are good motives for
using the method of personal attack, but the results of such activities
are counterproductive, antisocial, and the kinds of things generally
associated with brutes and mobs.
I've read the sarcasms about inordinate sensitivities, and the silly
rationalizations for invective. They are nothing more than excuses for
self-serving boorishness that destroys any possibility of legitimate
discussion and furtherance of understanding. What a sad state this is.
Of course, it does go right along with the phantom image of playing to a
hidden audience of gullible college-age lurkers. That characterization
would have gotten a horse-laugh and several raised middle fingers from the
many independently minded people I met in my college days. Have things
really changed that much? I don't think so. I hope not.
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:44 PDT 1996
Article: 42549 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: 11 Jun 1996 00:07:07 -0400
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Ambrose wrote:
>Many believe Germany could have won
>the war if they had not diverted so many resources to murder Jews.
That's a curious theory. Who are some of the many that believe this
implausible claim. It won't pencil out, won't even come close. Sounds
good though.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching
From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:45 PDT 1996
Article: 42550 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust; Six million dead
Date: 11 Jun 1996 00:07:20 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
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Ambrose wrote:
>As for how the number of 6 million came about... See, the Germans were
>big on keeping records and documents, so that sort of helps the process
>along. But I guess for revisionist asswipes, these documents would be
>"no longer operative," or some low level detailee in the Reichstag
>accidently ordered all that poison gas to be purchased.
Your strength of conviction appears to be bolstered by a startling lack of
basic information. The Germans were indeed precise record keepers and
sticklers for detail. That and the complete absence of the "records and
documents" you allude to is one of the primary reasons that the alleged
details of the story are being questioned, have been questioned by some
>from the beginning. Where, pray tell, are these phantom records? I can
assure you that thousands of academic researchers and millions of ordinary
people would like to have that information. Please share.
>It never ceases to amaze me when people go around with this kind of
>crap,
Some people are simply more easily amazed than others. You should be
constantly in awe.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 11 17:09:01 PDT 1996
Article: 42627 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: 11 Jun 1996 14:43:32 -0400
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Mike Curtis wrote:
>They supposedly were wearing black swim suites.
Sounds like they have some pretty large women on the team. Better lower
the water level in the pool before entry.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jun 12 10:36:56 PDT 1996
Article: 42682 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: 11 Jun 1996 14:42:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>Yes, I heard this story reported on the CBC Radio's 6 o'clock news
>this morning. Pretty amazing. Goose-stepping synchronised swimmers.
>Wonder what kind of make-up they were planning to wear.
In the best tradition of the long distance swimmer--goose grease, of
course. :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 13 23:24:51 PDT 1996
Article: 42959 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 13 Jun 1996 12:51:43 -0400
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References:
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I can't believe this is still catching fish, but resolve knows no bounds,
including the contstraints of reading comprehension.
Mark Van Alstine wrote, and Ken Lewis replied:
>>What is even more ludicrous is that DvdThomas asserts that a B-29 had a
>>payload of 100,000 tons. Um, I don't think the battleship Yamato weighed
>>100,000 tons.
>
>Right on!!!
Mark also wrote:
>Actually, it is obvious on a casual inspection of the facts that a lot of
>out-there stories get tossed around. Like the one about a B-29 carrying
>100,000 tons of _anything_.
>
>But is does make good "revisionist history"... };->
and
>Get a clue guys! Prone to "spontaneous combustion?" More like prone
>period! Damn bird would be as flat as a ran-over bear can.
A bear can do many things, and is especially noted for a propensity to
defecate in forested areas.
Now, the clue you yearn for, an earlier post in this thread (me, to Mike
Curtis):
>Compadre, my own opinion is that you would benefit first from dwelling on
>how many pounds are in a ton, and then checking the loaded weight of the
>largest aircraft in the world, circa 1996. After that, pull your head
out
>of your behind, clean out your ears, and open your mind. Then and only
>then will you be prepared to participate in something besides the best
>send-up I have seen in many a long day. This sequence has been damn near
>priceless, and more revealing than a little about what unwarranted
>prejudice, preconceptions, and ass-umptions do to folks.
>
>Peace. And thanks to Ken McVay for making this all possible. :-)
In fairness, special credit must be given to all the straight-line
volunteers. This couldn't have happened without you, guys!
)-: || ;-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 18 10:16:40 PDT 1996
Article: 44267 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Viewpoints
Date: 17 Jun 1996 15:31:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>jite@ix.netcom.com (!Rack Jite) wrote:
>>The one-way street so many people live on is truly amazing.
>>Limbaugh does little else but call the president and first lady names,
>>he has songs, monologues, on and on, 20 million people loving it, ha ha
>>ha ha... Talk radio in general is nothing but calling liberals names.
>>Newt, Armey and Delay do little but call liberals names, thats all fine
>>and dandy... But ohhhhh... When a liberal kicks it back, we cant have
>>that. Its a different story. UNFAIR.
>>And that tit for tat UNFAIRNESS is why I am always in so much trouble.
Pendulums swing. You can stand back and cuss at that fact (as has been
done in mirror image for several decades) or work with the flow; direct
it, don't uselessly fight it--your choice. Always works that way. You
can flail your ass away at a stream of water running toward you with
little result except making a mess. Better to throw up a dam, one rock at
a time. Show some rocks, not fists.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 18 17:18:20 PDT 1996
Article: 44341 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller letter
Date: 18 Jun 1996 12:59:04 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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Mattogno and Graf came across what they refer to only as a highly
interesting document in the Soviet archives in Moscow regarding this (or
these) cellars that they say will shed light on the meaning of the letter.
Should be published in 1997, perhaps sooner.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 18 19:47:14 PDT 1996
Article: 44359 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: 17 Jun 1996 17:33:55 -0400
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D. Keren wrote:
>what were
>all these corpses doing in the camps in Germany, if these
>were not death camps.
>
>In Belsen, for instance, the Allies found more than 25,000
>corpses.
There was a tremendous epidemic raging in Belsen for some time. The
Germans attempted to surrender the camp to advancing forces some two weeks
before the Allies took the area because they could do nothing to stop it
with absolutely no medical resources and nex to no food. The British
commander, for whatever reasons, told them to bug off. After the Brits
took the camp, even with resources now available, 14,000 Belsen inmates
died in the next two months. The incident was reported in an American
medical journal in 1945.
D. Thomas
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 18 19:47:16 PDT 1996
Article: 44360 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust authority Chuckles Ferree
Date: 17 Jun 1996 17:33:57 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Someone wrote:
They raced through the gate, expecting to find
>> > >imprisoned Allied soldiers - which they did, but most of them were
>> > >civilians, and ALL of them were treated in a manner which, in his
>> > >words, " You'd shoot a man for treating his dog that way." . He was
>> > >having a beer in the VFW in Killen, Texas, and I saw the look in his
>> > >eyes. He had seen his buddies blown to bits before his eyes, he had
>> > >seen entire cities reduced to rubble, but he wasn't prepared for the
>> > >death camps. So, to those who deny that it happened - Sorry, no
sale.
>> > >Memory lasts for quite awhile.
I once met a man in Lake Charles, Louisiana who operated a pawn shop
specializing in military memorabilia. We fell into a conversation, and he
regaled me for more than an hour with stories ranging from his underage
enlistment, early training, a hilarious near accidental collision with the
fleet's flagship near Panama, and an absolutely gripping account of being
trapped sixty feet down in a disabled sub from which only part of the crew
escaped. There were tears in his eyes set in a grim face, and I felt the
same way. He talked at great length about the radar gear after I revealed
a knowledge of same, and he obviously knew his ropes there too. He
finished with a story of their final run off the coast of nearly
defenseless Japan, where they sank ships like so many shooting ducks until
they ran out of torpedoes and started for home on the surface to conserve
the now low fuel (their rendevous tanker didn't show). He was awarded the
Navy Cross, which he showed me, for taking charge of the sub after it was
damaged heavily in a surface engagement with a destroyer and all the
officers and chiefs killed. This 19 year old radar tech brought the
crippled U.S.S. Sunfish back to Pearl with no assistance, as all available
craft were needed for the ongoing invasion of Okinawa. He had served on
other subs, but the Sunfish achieved a kill record on this one mission
that was unequalled in either ocean. He told the parts of his bravery
with great humility and spoke again of his dead comrades by name,
wondering about members of their families he had met and never kept in
touch with. I left, enthralled with the story, thinking I might write
about it.
A few hours later, in a little bookstore on St. Charles street in the
French Quarter, I was astounded to come across a volume detailing the
history of the U.S. Submarine Service from its inception to 1945!
Serendipity! Still stoked at actually meeting someone who had been
through the real shit, I bought the volume and rushed to read about my new
friend. Took only about three minutes to find the right appendix and
determine that there never was a U.S. submarine called the Sunfish.
Another thirty minutes revealed large flaws in dates and other details
that he furnished so freely and were still fresh in my mind.
It happens.
Which is not to say that the guy above didn't see some horrible sights.
The Germans from one of the nearby towns were forced to view the piles of
corpses, an experience which caused several of them to commit suicide
afterward (including, I believe, the mayor and/or his wife).
BTW, I grew up in Texas. Mistreatment of dogs is common, endemic to
certain kinds of people, and nobody shoots anybody over it. Man got a
right there to do whatever he wants with his dawg or his wife or his kids,
and it ain't nobody's business but his own.
D. Thomas
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jun 19 00:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 44401 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviate style McVay Justice: how to spot aryans
Date: 17 Jun 1996 02:28:42 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
The following exchange is between D. Keren and M. Giwer:
dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[Followup = alt.revisionism]
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>writes:
>
>[About Ken McVay]
># Actually he is very much in favor of free speech. He simply
># wants to deport those who exercise it so they can speak freely
># some place else.
>To the best of my knowledge, Mr. McVay does not at all support
>deporting anyone.
>Unless you can prove that he does, we will have another proof that
>you are a pathological liar.
I was unaware he supported Canadian citizenship for Zundel.
May I quote you?
****
I am sure that anyone who cares to look through the search services can
find one or more posts by Mr. McVay on this subject wherein he makes clear
and gleeful reference to his pleasure at the idea of Zundel being
deported. One of them may still be in the current postings. Sorry, don't
recall the thread.
D. Thomas
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 20 10:57:04 PDT 1996
Article: 44859 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel's crocodile tears
Date: 20 Jun 1996 12:29:57 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Ken McVay wrote, of Ernst Zuendel's acquittal on appeal:
>Is he? In the first case - the "publishing false news" case,
>he was clearly guilty - two juries said so. That the law was
>later thrown out does not change the jury findings. In short,
>he was not "persecuted," he really _did_ publish lies, and
>under existing law of the day, his arrest was justified. That
>the law was arcane, and ineffectual, I readily agree.
This is an interesting interpretation of the Western system of justice. I
think it's called sophistry, albeit unwitting. So all successful
appellants are, in your eyes, guilty as charged. That's more than a
little scary.
And juries, of course, are the final arbiters of truth. Why, I believe
that O.J. Simpson may find a second career in Canadian football.
The appeals process is intended to protect citizens from the stupidities
and inequities of laws, legislators, lower court judges and ignorant
jurors. If you wish to side with stupidity, inequity, ignorance and
incompetence then your statement above becomes valid. Otherwise, it is
close to:
"lying, and of _knowingly_ lying"
That's said in sarcasm. I don't believe in calling people liars without
incontrovertible evidence of it and that doesn't exist here. I'll stay
with "unwitting sophistry" as an adequate description.
>I would give creedence to the charge of "persecution" with
>regard to the recent "conspiracy" charge, which I think was
>foolish and doomed to failure from the gitgo, but what one
>citizen does does not "persecution" make. Neither, I must
>point out, is a libel suit - unless, of course, you believe
>that Canadians should be able to lie about anyone with
>complete legal impunity? Or that the victim of such lies
>should have no legal recourse?
"One citizen" does not accurately describe the Candadian bureaucracy that
was involved in the persecution. The one citizen you refer to has made a
career of late of directing charges at Zuendel that result in nothing save
great expense for the taxpayers of Canada and Zuendel himself.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 20 23:05:15 PDT 1996
Article: 44973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:02:20 -0400
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Ah, statistics!
It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of incidents
of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material over,
and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness by
default. (Graber made me do it!!)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 20 23:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 44980 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:03:40 -0400
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Dan Keren wrote:
>Faurisson claims that historians "no longer believe" testimony
>about throwing people alive into the "burning ditches" in
>Birkenau. If he's not lying, he should present a large number
>of historians who indeed say that they don't believe this ever
>happened. Until he does, he's lying about this point.
In street parlance, this is known as "jive."
Let me get this straight. Every non-referenced assertion is a lie? What
is your reference for that assertion? Oh. You didn't give one. I'll be
darned. (Or are only Faurisson's assertions to be treated this way?)
>We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
>and in Lidice if memory serves me right.
Why, silly me! You do give your reference--your right serving memory.
Jive talk, sir, classic jive talk.
To be able to conduct a conversation in a reasonable time frame, some
element of trust and common sense is required. If you said that you had
searched for a historian who does believe it and found one, or if you said
that you could not find any historian who supports Faurisson's assertion,
after reasonably diligent search, then and only then would you have earned
the right to legitimately claim that perhaps Faurisson is mistaken. To
call his comment a lie based on your reasoning is not a lie, but it sure
isn't true.
***
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,'" Jean-Francois
objected.
"When _I_ use a word," Professor Keren said, in a rather scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Beaulieu, "whether you _can_ make words mean so
many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Keren, "which is to be master--that's all."
(With apologies to Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 21 08:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 44993 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The full story of the reconstruction
Date: 20 Jun 1996 12:57:33 -0400
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References:
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Dan Keren wrote:
>Show me your evidence that there are traces on the *outside*
>walls. I have a feeling you're confusing this gas chamber with
>some delousing chambers that indeed have traces on the outside walls.
This is a given. There have even been discussions here about the
significance. No one questioned the existence of what is present in
pictures and reports. Why do you quibble about such an obvious matter?
Or is quibbling the aim?
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 23 19:30:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45623 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 23 Jun 1996 20:06:03 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
H. Ostrov writes:
>>I have learned from hard experience that the Friends of Nizkor comprises
>>more than a few who are not interested either in honest debate or truth
>>per se.
>
>Kindly provide your evidence to support this assertion, or retract it,
>Mr. Ehrlich.
His evidence is his unpleasant experience in trying to be open and honest
with people on this newsgroup who are neither open nor honest nor
particularly intelligent. It is an experience shared by many, including
myself. Pretending to want to discuss details with you, they quickly
resort to personal attacks such as your sleazy attempt to intimidate
Erhlich by doing a sing-song child's game of "I know a secret about you,
but I won't tell. Maybe," and far worse, often delivered by groups. Your
intent is not to debate or post facts or ascertain facts, it is to
influence lurkers and disrupt honest exchanges of information and ideas.
There is nothing to retract.
>I have no idea what a "conventialist" is - other than perhaps a
>convenient label you choose to use for those who question you, and ask
>you to substantiate your assertions and theories.
>
>However, if it is your contention that I am "essentially dishonest",
>kindly provide your evidence to support this assertion, or retract it,
>Mr. Ehrlich. If I am mistaken, and you did not intend to imply that I
>am "essentially dishonest", I would appreciate your clarification of
>this statement.
Evidence to support the assertion is given by your first eight words of
the above being followed by the rest of the sentence. It is a minor
example of a major shortcoming. Your end justifies your means.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 23 19:30:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45627 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving's 'Goebbels' book now available (fwd)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 20:11:42 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Rich Green wrote:
>Because they're Nazi-apologists with no interest in getting to the
>truth. The IHR is run by Greg Raven who has posted his admiration for
>Hitler. Perhaps, Dr. Keren can remind us.
Time magazine made Joe Stalin its Man of the Year in 1939, I believe.
Does this mean that Time admired Stalin, or were they simply recognizing
his great effect on the course of history? Disliking someone's philosophy
or moral position does not require adopting the stance that the person
possesses only the basest of human attributes. Lots of bad guys have
talents that they put to uses destructive to the societies in which they
lived. To describe them as idiots because you don't like what they did is
labeling yourself, not the object of your scorn. The reactions to this
(recognizing that demonized people may have or have had talents) are
reminiscent of the reactions of church authorities to less than totally
condemnatory remarks about Lucifer.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jun 24 15:48:58 PDT 1996
Article: 45743 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Au revoir, but not goodbye
Date: 23 Jun 1996 19:51:36 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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John Morris wrote:
>a vigorous political culture in
>alt.revisionism.
That is one of the highest flights of fantasy that I have ever read.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jun 24 23:03:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45777 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers' True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 20:41:59 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
John Morris wrote:
>On the contrary, I take it as a sign of the utter bankruptcy of
>Revisionism that you personally have to resort to such tactics as
>flooding this newsgroup with meaningless posts, and that Revisionists
>not only will not speak out against such tactics, but openly support
>them.
Using a more cogent example, I have never taken Mr. Keren's prediliction
for endless reposting of the same dreary material, without even a pretense
of doing so to share information or stimulate discussion, as a sign of the
bankruptcy of anything save Mr. Keren's imagination. To make a connection
between his actions and historical accuracy would be ludicrous.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 25 10:45:56 PDT 1996
Article: 45878 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel's crocodile tears
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:08:50 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Mike Curtis wrote:
>In article <4qeevl$96t@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> >Isn't it the case that the appeal threw out the law itself rather than
>> >the verdict? In other words, Mr. Zuendel was indeed proven to be a
>> >liar, but the the higher court found that lying isn't a crime.
>>
>> That is precisely right. Two juries found that he knowingly
>> published lies - in my book, that makes him a liar :-)
>
>No doubt, if the Court had determined that someone was a witch, and had
>burned him at the stake, any subsequent opinions that there were no such
>things as witches would not change that person's witchworthiness.
This wasn't a capital case Zundel was involved in. Therefore the death
pentalty is a nonissue here.
I thought as head of the IHR you would have a higher level of thinking
but I see there is no difference between you and most of the racists I
read in this group.
Mike Curtis
******
These comments are not offered in a mean-spirited way, in fact I'm trying
not to laugh.
You certainly know how to cut to the heart of a matter.
May I humbly suggest that you consider refraining from making public
pronouncements about higher levels of thinking?
Then again, this could be just the most inept attempt at sarcasm I've seen
in a while. :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 25 22:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 45985 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:12:18 -0400
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
M. Giwer wrote:
> Unfortunately, it is in the too hard category. The right way to do it
>is to measure it. It isn't the kind of thing I would do at home.
Some time ago there was extended discussion of how hard it would be to do
an experiment to determine HCN evaporation rates. There are three
difficulties in doing this, none of them really major:
(1) Obtain some pure HCN (or stabilized, with 1% or so additive to
prevent polymerization explosions).
(2) Conduct the experiment safely.
(3) Monitor diffusion accurately if done in a known volume chamber.
As a starting point, I would suggest placing a measured amount of HCN
liquid in a shallow dish whose area has been measured, doing so in some
remote location where the fumes will dissipate harmlessly (downwind!).
Then simply stand upwind and measure the time it takes to evaporate,
noting of course the ambient temperature, and perhaps measuring the
temperature of the HCN with a simple Fluke thermocouple sensor since it
will tend to cool as evaporation takes place.
The next phase would consist of making ersatz Zyklon with readily
available diatomaceous earth pellets and repeating the experiment with the
container placed on top of a digital scale in order to monitor weight
loss and thereby evaporation. You would put a known amount of HCN in the
pellets, and it wouldn't matter whether or not the HCN content was
maximized since the intent is to measure rate.
It gets harder to do this in a known volume (to include diffusion),
primarily because of the need to use some moderately expensive
concentration monitoring instruments and sensors at several locations
within the chamber. And to construct a chamber, for that matter. Quite
doable though, and for less than $5,000 according to my calculations.
Which could be the biggest problem of all. Anybody got 5 grand laying
around they want to donate? :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jun 25 23:16:38 PDT 1996
Article: 45989 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving's 'Goebbels' bio - great!
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:13:33 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
The complete scenario of how Irving's Goebbels book was intended to be put
up on the Net and then withdrawn for the moment was explained in detail in
a thread here a couple of months ago. All involved seemed to agree that
it was a natural progression born of hasty reaction to unexpected events.
There was no hint of concocted publicity in this, none at all.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:32 PDT 1996
Article: 46024 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:12:29 -0400
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References:
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>From the Journal of the American Medical Association, May 19, 1945; p220
"TYPHUS CAUSES A TRUCE
"By negotiations between British and German officers, British troops took
over from the S.S. and Wehrmacht the task of guarding the vast
concentration camp at Belse, a few miles northwest of Celle, which
contains 60,000 prisoners, many of them political. This has been done
because typhus is rampant in the camp and it is vital that no prisoners be
released until the infection is checked. The advancing British agreed to
refrain from bombing or shelling the area of the camp, and the Germans
agreed to leave behind an armed guard which would be allowed to return to
their own lines a week after the British arrival. The story of the
negotiations is curious. Two German officers presented themselves before
the British outposts and explained that there were 9,000 sick in the camp
and that all sanitation had failed. They proposed that the British should
occupy the camp at once, as the responsibility was international in the
interests of health. In return for the delay caused by the truce the
Germans offered to surrender intact the bridges over the river Aller.
After brief consideration the British senior officer rejected the German
proposals, saying it was necessary that the British should occupy an area
of 10 kilometers round the camp in order to be sure of keeping their
troops and lines of communications away from the disease. The British
eventually took over the camp."
****
By the time they "eventually took over the camp" thousands were dead and
dying. In the two month period following their entry, 14,000 more died.
Many of the Germans who stayed with this hopeless situation were summarily
executed by the reluctant liberators. Others were later tried and hanged.
The pictures of these typhus and cholera created corpses are standard
fare in museums and films on gas chambers, when in fact they have utterly
nothing to do with that subject. If this isn't progaganda, what would you
call it?
Is this an attempt to excuse the abuses at Belsen and other camps? Not in
the least. It is an attempt to correct the abuses of factual recountings
of what actually took place.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:33:03 PDT 1996
Article: 46210 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:43:44 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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Richard Schultz wrote:
I never made such a claim -- and you know that. You made a claim that
"Ehrlich606" was particularly appropriate for this newsgroup, and I
pointed out (somewhat facetiously, but I see that your sense of irony
is somewhat impaired) that your remark could be interpreted to mean
that "Ehrlich606" was appropriate because of the Nazis' Jews = bacilli
(not vermin, btw) propaganda. I don't believe that I claimed that's where
you got your pseudonym; I merely suggested that as a possibility.
*********
I very much appreciate humor even (sometimes especially) when it's
directed at me. I am sidetracked far enough on the skewed path to often
see humor where none was intended. I remember your post about the
bacillus. There was no humor there.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:33:04 PDT 1996
Article: 46269 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Au revoir, but not goodbye
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:07:43 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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>>John Morris wrote:
>
>>>a vigorous political culture in
>>>alt.revisionism.
>
>>That is one of the highest flights of fantasy that I have ever read.
>
>Irony is obviously not for everyone.
Obliviously, ;-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:33:05 PDT 1996
Article: 46270 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:07:49 -0400
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Richard Schultz wrote:
>: I will concede your expert knowledge on that. My previous statements
>: presupposed the honor, decency, and fairness of all participants on
this
>: board. I have learned in a hard school that I presupposed far too
much.
>
>Why don't we start with the level of honor shown by people who refuse
>to post under their own names?
That's a straw dog, and a tired old one at that. Harrassment in this area
is a fact of life. Some can tolerate it, some don't want to. Anonymity
is a personal choice and a matter of convenience to some. The only thing
related to honor in this group is the truthfulness of the posters, not
their completely irrelevant indentities.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:33:06 PDT 1996
Article: 46271 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:07:51 -0400
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It has been suuggested that Ehrlich here might be a couple of other
names appearing here.
Mike Curtis
Thanks--I had almost forgotten that I am really Erhlich. Gord McFee can
attest to this.--DT/E6
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:32 PDT 1996
Article: 46313 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 27 Jun 1996 14:14:34 -0400
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Mike Curtis wrote:
>Opinions are like ass-holes. We all have 'em. Giwer doesn't back his
>up and most of his "opinions" are lies and obfuscations about what
>people tell him. I think you are capable of providing a better
>argument, you simply have your books in the attic.
>
>Mike Curtis
Newsgroups are like opinions. They all have.......
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46359 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers' True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 20:37:02 -0400
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John Morris wrote:
>Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on
>alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on
>his terms.
His terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not personalities. I'd
support that aim regardless of who was promoting it. I wouldn't choose
the labor intensive method that he has, but appealing to reason and
civility didn't do a damned thing when I tried that approach, so who am I
to second-guess?
"Spamming," unless I misunderstand the term (which could be the case) does
not seem to apply to what is going on here, even if Mr. Giwer uses the
term himself.
Some people here need to grow up and take their own advice. If you don't
like his posts, don't read them.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jun 27 20:58:26 PDT 1996
Article: 46410 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 27 Jun 1996 14:01:07 -0400
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Rich Green wrote:
>>Then simply stand upwind and measure the time it takes to evaporate,
>
>Stand upwind with a gas mask, or how will you uncover the HCN?
A gas mask isn't a bad idea, but not necessary. The stuff simply isn't
that dangerous if you have a single contained source and are careful about
what you're doing. I doubt that one intake of even fairly strong vapors
would incapacitate you, though I don't wish to find out. Would be quite
sufficient just to hold your breath, uncover the container and walk
upwind. You don't want to be breathing HF vapors either, and you ought to
see how carelessly that stuff is handled in industrial applications.
Ditto HCN.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 28 07:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 46436 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The true revisionist theme
Date: 27 Jun 1996 09:31:53 -0400
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Mike Stein wrote:
>As an example: the rarity of documentation for gas chambers is cited
>as evidence of their nonexistence
I do not interpret it that way and know of few who do. What I have said,
and continue to say, is that the total lack of documentation (not rarity)
is certainly cause for skeptical inquiry and further investigation. I
also do not say that gas chambers did not exist, only that I have not seen
a shred of evidence to support that as yet except for oral testimonies of
suspect origin.
>but the rarity of documentation of the
>true resettlement of the Jews (railroad records, etc.) is not viewed with
>similar suspicion. Russians can destroy evidence but Germans cannot?
The "but" doesn't apply to me in this case. I know little of this
subject, have no present opinions to offer. As for evidence, I don't
think that the Germans were known for destroying anything save some
individual diaries and personal papers of the higher leaders. Detailed
records of many things that would be uncomfortable for a conqueror to find
were indeed found, totally intact--such as Hitler's written orders to kill
commissars and every adult male in Stalingrad (the former being the basis
for the execution of a couple of generals at Nuremberg). And regarding
Russian evidence, only Russia can answer that one. Their country wasn't
conquered and occupied so that anyone could determine if documents exist,
or had been destroyed.
>Despite Mr. Widmann's (proper) rejection of the notion of painting
>with a broad brush, revisionist methodology - and here it is a true
>Johnny one-note from all I have seen - holds that since some eyewitness
>testimonies are unreliable, _all_ of them are
Once again I will reply in the key of D, as in Disagree. This is not my
position at all. I am skeptical of all the testimonies--I think they are
next to worthless in determining what really took place without physical
corroboration because of the obvious bias of their presenting sources.
But untrue? There's no way I could make that judgment, any more than
anyone else can prove them true. You either believe them or you don't.
Refusing to accept something as the truth does not mean that you are
saying it is false--only that you have no clear reason to accept it as
truth and are bothered by the lack of supporting physical evidence. That
seems to me a reasonable and prudent stance. Its use in our judicial
system certainly helped get the poor McMartin clan out of the clutches of
some hysterical witch hunters. Remember the "eyewitness" testimony there?
There was a consistency to it too. What discredited it was its fantastic
nature and total absence of corroborating physical evidence. However,
this did not prove that the testimonies were lies, only that the court
considered them inadequate to use as evidence when presented alone. There
are still people who believe them, by the way. Believe passionately that
the evil Raymond Buckey took children to a church through underground
tunnels to see animals sacrificed in Satanic rituals. These people aren't
wackos from the north woods either. They're ordinary middle and upper
middle class folks living in Manhattan Beach, California who believe what
they believe. That they do so doesn't change the fact that the odds are
better than a few million to one that they're wrong.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 28 07:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 46439 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The true revisionist theme
Date: 27 Jun 1996 09:40:52 -0400
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Mike Stein wrote:
>you to claim that all those who say the same thing are liars - if it did,
>I could have pointed to all the lies told by revisionists and declared
>victory two years ago. But revisionists have to acknowledge the same
>thing about eyewitness testimony, and it is certainly the case that when
I
>see so many lies (and by this I include lies by omission, the most
>frequent sort) I am not willing to trust anything I have not
doublechecked
>for myself.
>
> Someone recently asked (in essence) what difference it would make if
>everything I believed about Auschwitz turned out to be false. Not a bit,
>really. What makes a difference to me is that it be established using
>consistent and _honest_ standards of evidence and reasoning.
This is just the closing part of a very reasonable post calling for
honesty and dispassionate treatment of statements made here by all
involved. That is indeed the way to exchange information, instead of
engaging in distinctly amateurish name-calling. There are no Jack E.
Leonards in this forum, not even an Andrew Dice Clay (for the younger set,
"Fat" Jack E. Leonard was a popular one-line insult artist).
One comment about "lies by ommission"--I have seen that happen (to me in
fact) when the ommission was the result of ignorance, not dishonesty. It
doesn't do much for your willingness to talk openly to someone if they
scream LIAR!! at you every time you screw up, because personally I screw
up a lot more often than I can tolerate being berated like that. And
that's the truth. :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jun 28 13:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 46506 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers' True Colours (was Re: Lets get this straight)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 21:04:47 -0400
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John Morris wrote:
>What you seem to
>be asking for is a newsgroup where you can discuss Revisionism without
>being challenged.
That is utter nonsense. What he and others are demanding, not asking for,
is a forum where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jun 29 07:30:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46692 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burgTo: David
Date: 28 Jun 1996 00:52:59 -0400
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Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burgTo: David
From: sf924@aol.com (SF924)
Date: 27 Jun 1996 20:36:07 -0400
Message-ID: <4qv9dn$8gb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
To David Thomas:
As a follow-up to my earlier comments, I agree that many reasonable and
brilliant scholars have questioned the legality of the Nuremberg trials
including men such as Robert Taft and John M. Harlan. They were indeed of
arguable legality.
Nevertheless, other tials, particularly those held in Germany in the late
1940's and 1950's were clearly not illegal. Your comment while important,
appears to bypass the central issue raised by this string: that is that
none of the defendants, in any of the cases (I'M PREPARED TO STAND
CORRECTED) ever raised the defense that there was no crime committed
because there no gas chambers or a systematic plan to murder the Jews.
There is no more fundamental defense which can be raised in a criminal
case.
As I have stated, it is inconceivable that none of these people would not
have raised this defense if it was colorable. It is inconceivable that
people would go like sheep to prison or even death for participating in
"fictitious gassings" if the gassings were indeed fictitious.
******
Thanks for your comments. What I say next may need correction also, I do
not present myself as an authority on the Nuremberg trials, and know less
of those that followed.
My understanding of what took place at Nuremberg is that the major charges
were of four categories and none of them were specific to gas chambers, or
to any particular mode of killing. Gas chamber evidence was presented
along with many other alleged killing methods (some of them quite
fantastic) simply to demonstrate that there was widespread killing, which
probably was the case, especially in Auschwitz. Gas chambers were not the
focal point of the trial and most of the comments I have read about the
defendants indicates that they had no knowledge of what went on in the
camps and many of them accepted what was put before them as possible,
horrible and something they knew nothing about. They had not quite the
fixation on that single point that this discussion group does. Even if
one or more had taken that tack and been successful in proving it, it
would not have gotten them off the hook. Men were hanged for a very vague
general description of something like being part of a conspiracy to cause
the deaths of prisoners. Testimony that they had beaten prisoners was
sufficient for conviction in some cases. It appears that all any of them
tried to come up with was that they were following orders and did not
participate in any mass murders. Some said that they did not see any. A
very few such as Hoess said that they did, although the latter was a bit
off mental balance to put it mildly.
They were being barraged with a tremendous number of accusations, many
vague and in practically every case without any ability to cross examine
the witness, since written statements were admitted as evidence. The
transcripts are full of incidents where defense attorneys tried to open
various lines of questioning or challenge statements and were summarily
rebuffed. The judges were quick to dismiss these attempts as
inappropriate, unnecessary, time wasting. The latter seems rather
callous, given that the men were on trial for their lives. And there was
more attention paid at Nuremberg to giving a show of fairness than at some
of the lower profile courts for the camp guards, who were executed on
unbelievably flimsy evidence, flimsy to the point of not being evidence at
all. I refer you again to Carlos Porter's writings on this subject.
Have you ever seen films of the People's Court proceedings in Berlin? The
attitude of the court there was an exaggerated caricature of what went on
at Nuremberg, but the two were conducted in the same vein--you're guilty
as hell, you're going to get a fair trial, and then we're going to hang
you. There is no doubt that some deserved punishment, but not all.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:18 PDT 1996
Article: 46967 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany vs. US
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:08:17 -0400
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Geo wrote:
>>How much more justifiable it is to kill hundreds of thousands of
innocent women and
>>children hundreds of miles from the battlefield ( Dresden, Hamburg, Koln
etc.
>>etc.) with jelly bombs than killing them face to face. American moral at
its' best !
>
>Kind of like firebombing of London specifically and England in
>general, right?
Wrong. Germany did not bomb English cities until after the first English
raid on Berlin. When they did so, it was primarily with high explosives
and the scope was vastly different. English casualties from bombings for
the entire war do not equal the deaths resulting from just one of the
major fire-bombings that we delivered to the civilian populations of
Germany and Japan. The really unconscionable part of this whole affair
was that it contributed very little to eventual victory. It was the
beginning act of a very sordid play of vengeance.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:19 PDT 1996
Article: 47032 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to make eyewitness testimony credible
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:13:02 -0400
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Pete McCutchen wrote:
>And is Dershowitz a good source for the OJ trial? Typcially, accounts by
>lawyers, while interesting, are not objective.
As good a source as he is for anything else. Particularly the fascinating
subject of Alan Dershowitz.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47033 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 25 Jun 1996 11:43:04 -0400
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II. METHOD OF USING PRUSSIC ACID
ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
Dia
gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers.
[...]
Would Ms. Sommers agree that it is not surprising that testimony would
refer to Zyklon as blue?
Regards,
Rich Green
*********
It would be interesting to know the source of the "blue cubes" (Erco?).
Degesch literature describes only pellets and discs, no cubes, no blue.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47034 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:14:36 -0400
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>I'm sure the fact that diesel exhaust cannot kill people will come as a
>great comfort to the families and friends of a Redwood City teenager who
>was reported to have committed suicide by sitting in a running car in a
>closed garage.
>
>-rich
That's DIESEL. Very few cars have diesel engines. Was this the case in
this unreferenced citation?
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:21 PDT 1996
Article: 47057 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 25 Jun 1996 12:00:48 -0400
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Mark Van Alstine wrote:
(An excellent listing of various properties and facts concerning cyanide
compounds and products.)
Thank you for this well referenced and useful information.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:22 PDT 1996
Article: 47095 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An honest doubt-of-the-day
Date: 30 Jun 1996 10:42:01 -0400
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Hilary Ostrov writes:
>In any event, since you seem to have dismissed the vast body of
>testimony and other evidence available, please do tell us what might
>constitute "more convincing proofs" or "revisions" for your
>doubt-of-the-day, Mr. Ehrlich.
"and other evidence available"? Perhaps you could share this information.
My personal doubt of this day is the likelihood of your being able to
come up with anything beyond the testimony. This relates specifically to
homicidal gassings.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:34:10 PDT 1996
Article: 47107 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Au revoir, but not goodbye
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:07:47 -0400
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Keith Morrison wrote:
>Actually I thought that irony was an amphibole.
Asbestos is ironic? :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:34:11 PDT 1996
Article: 47108 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:08:05 -0400
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Gordon McFee wrote:
>If you have studied history as much as
>you claim, you know that statement is wrong; it is the deniers who are
>dishonest.
Both, sir. On occasion it is both. And much of what is lableled
dishonesty is simply ignorance in action.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:34:12 PDT 1996
Article: 47109 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 13:08:07 -0400
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Mike Curtis
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
And he who laughs not at all? :-)
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24
From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:34:13 PDT 1996
Article: 47209 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: from Michael O'Hare on Terrorism & Prejudice
Date: 25 Jun 1996 14:19:24 -0400
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Pericles wrote:
>From Michael O'Hare
To the people of Israel
I am horrified and disgusted by
the obscene terrorism that the people
of Israel have had to suffer through
their brave and noble history.
I give my word of honor to
find a way to help you.
veritas, Michael O'Hare
****
Mr. O'Hare's sensibilities are veritas laudable. I would caution him not
to look too closely at what the noble history of Israel has done to
Palestinians, else he might go completely catatonic.
The people of Israel are the only ones who can help themselves and they
can only do so by being the ones to break the cycle of wrongs thrown at
wrongs. Use the immense foreign aid funds given to Israel by the US to
pay legitimate reparations to the Palestinians just for starters, give
them back their property that was seized and help them rebuild what has
been destroyed over the past 50 years or so. Nothing, of course, will
bring back the legion of dead, but this would be a beginning. And I don't
see any point in exchanging atrocity stories. Israel will lose by a wide
margin in that category.
_________________________________________________________
"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24

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