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Re: Cingrani...

No, just because he said it doesn't mean it is. If he called that pitch a knuckle ball, that doesn't make it so.

The pitch he threw looks an awful lot like a curveball and very little like a slider. He may be holding the pitch like a slider, but it is coming out looking like a curve. He wouldn't be the first guy to do that. That is why guys often throw slurves. The two pitches are close enough in their execution that you can try to throw one and get the other, or something real close to it.

Likes:

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by dougdirt

No, just because he said it doesn't mean it is. If he called that pitch a knuckle ball, that doesn't make it so.

The pitch he threw looks an awful lot like a curveball and very little like a slider. He may be holding the pitch like a slider, but it is coming out looking like a curve. He wouldn't be the first guy to do that. That is why guys often throw slurves. The two pitches are close enough in their execution that you can try to throw one and get the other, or something real close to it.

You hold a slider one way, a curve another.

The breaks are identical, doug. Sliders have two-plane break if they're thrown correctly.

He said it was a slider because he throws a slider.

He doesn't throw a curve.

It's that easy.

Admit you're wrong, and let's get past this.

"You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher

Re: Cingrani...

Pitch F/X data suggests they don't break the same. That is why the system can identify the two pitches from each other.

Sliders have less "sink" and less sideways movement than curveballs. Sliders don't have much sideways movement, they simply had good sink/break. Curveballs have better sink/break and they also have some sideways movement.

Again, watch the video. That thing looks like a curveball, not a slider.

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I went back and compared the fastballs from the same at bat as that breaking ball. Arm speed was identical. Just the way the GIF was rendered.

Interesting. Does his lower body action seem the same? When I was looking earlier it almost appeared that there was a slowing or hitch around the time his front foot planted. The home computer is too old and slow to pick it up tonight however.

Seeing it better now. It is like he plants the right foot and straightens his leg as opposed to flowing forwards. Curious if that is always there.

Re: Cingrani...

Certainly looks more like a curve than a slider. On the other hand, Danny Jackson's slider used to look very like this, lots of horizontal and downward movement. It's actually Jackson that this one pitch reminds me of (obviously the smallest sample size). If Cingrani says it's a slider, I believe him, though, and that no doubt has to do with the way the ball comes off his fingers and with the hand action--turning the door knob versus pulling the shade.

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by klw

Looks like a curve to me. Do you have a GIF of him throwing a fastball? He seems to slow his body during the delivery more than you would for a slider but I would be curious to compare this to his fastball.

I mentioned in another thread (or maybe it was this one) that I thought he had an interesting delivery. "Slow" is one word that comes to mind. Looks like he is just tossing it in there gently, whatever the pitch.

Re: Cingrani...

I find it absolutely amazing that, instead of admitting you're wrong when confronted with the pitcher's own words about what he's throwing, you'd continue to "figure it out."

If Cingrani said it was a slider, then he threw a slider.

BTW, your definition of slider is wrong.

From wiki:

I'm with Doug here. Whatever Cingrani wants to call it, that's a curveball...and a real good one. Either way, let's just celebrate the fact that the organization is flooded with fantastic young pitching like we haven't seen in who knows how many years.

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by dougdirt

That didn't add anything to the previous conversation. We already established that Cingrani said he was throwing a slider. The question was, is he actually throwing a slider, or is he just gripping it like a slider and it is actually a curveball?

Here is the pitch:

That's not a slider. That's a curve.

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Re: Cingrani...

Arguing this is silly, IMO. He throwing the same pitch he threw last year because he said he is. If he's throwing the ball with a slider grip and releasing it as a slider, it's a freakin' slider!

I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone would argue with the guy who threw the ball and then question his answer.

From wiki:

... a primary source can be a person with direct knowledge of a situation, or a document created by such a person.

In this case, Tony Cingrani is a primary source, as he's the guy who threw the ball. No one else is a primary source.

Primary sources are distinguished from secondary sources, which cite, comment on, or build upon primary sources.

doug, the GIF he created/ found, and all the posters on this board are secondary sources.

Because there's only one layer of interpretation in a primary source (i.e., "I threw a slider"), they are held more valuable than secondary sources, which depend on chains of assumption or bias that may or may not be accurate.

In short, it doesn't matter how it breaks in the GIF, what doug might have heard on WLW, or what anyone else wants to say-- if Cingrani said it was a slider (and he did), then it was a slider. Period.

Last edited by Scrap Irony; 04-06-2013 at 02:55 PM.

"You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher

Re: Cingrani...

Cingrani doesn't have to be lying to the interviewer. He simply may be throwing what he believes is a slider, but the pitch is coming out as a curveball. He is doing something different than last year. Last year,his slider looked nothing like that pitch. It was faster. It didn't have two plane break.

Re: Cingrani...

Though it's hard to tell from the GIF, it looks like Cingrani is throwing a slider that breaks like a curveball. In other words, as others have posted, a slurve.

A slider is thrown with a flick of the wrist, creating vertical spin. A curve is thrown by pushing your thumb from the bottom of the ball to the top, creating horizontal spin. In the GIF, it looks more like he's flicking his wrist. But it's hard to tell.

Re: Cingrani...

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Cingrani doesn't have to be lying to the interviewer. He simply may be throwing what he believes is a slider, but the pitch is coming out as a curveball. He is doing something different than last year. Last year,his slider looked nothing like that pitch. It was faster. It didn't have two plane break.

So he doesn't know how to throw a pitch he's been throwing for pretty much his entire life?

Shenanigans, doug.

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-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher

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