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5W Friday Panel: The Politics in Comics Roundtable (part two)

Every Friday, the Fifth World will host a virtual panel session on a
topic of the week. This week's subject: Politics in Comics.

Chris Maka

Welcome to Part Two of the Fifth
World Friday Panel roundtable on politics and comics! Please check out Part One here.

Let's start this session with this:
Some people continue to complain about Marvel "replacing" established
heroes, who happen to be predominantly white and male, with female characters
and characters-of-color, saying that Marvel is just appeasing "Social
Justice Warriors". The "replacing" verb is obviously inaccurate,
but is there any merit to the complaint at all?

Sean Fields

Hola

JL Franke

Greetings

Sean Fields

I think this goes back to the point
made in Part One about returning to the status quo. I knew even introducing new
"takes" on characters that the original characters wouldn't go
anywhere for long and would return after awhile.

Chris Maka

Yeah, that should be obvious to
anyone who’s read Marvel or DC comics for any length of time.

JL Franke

But new takes can still end up
going somewhere if the character ends up being a winner. For example, I don't think Kamala Khan will
be going anywhere anytime soon.

Sean Fields

Oh, definitely. A new character if
done well should be around for the long haul.

I like the idea of a new character
taking up the mantle, and I think there is more complaining when it is done
with a generally non-white male character. I also think comic book geeks are
really particular about "their" heroes (see any Robin or Flash
argument).

I like to see a person with a
different take on justice/world view/life issues put on the spandex. Change is
good. Or good change is good.

Chris Maka

Definitely

So let's be frank: some readers
are, in fact, racist, and for them this is part of their Cultural Racial War.
But I know that there are also people whose issue is that they are diehard fans
of a particular character, and part of the traditional conception of this
character is being white and male (because 99% of Marvel and DC characters have
been and still are white and male).

I get that geeks can be hostile to
change in that way, but to me that's a privilege issue

Sean Fields

But I get the argument against it
if maybe I would state a different reason beyond "you're ruining my
characters."

Chris Maka

I also dislike the argument that
"I don't care if they make new characters", because new characters do
not have a good track record of sticking around or getting enough fan support
initially to survive.

Sean Fields

Good point.

Chris Maka

If Miles Morales were simply
"Insect Fighter" or whatever, he wouldn't still have a title, most
likely.

Miles Morales as Spider-Man

Sean Fields

Not at all.

Chris Maka

But as it is, he's very popular as
a Spider-Man

Sean Fields

I think people also grumble as
things change until they realize they kinda like it, like in music. The problem
is when your basis for an argument is racist or sexist or homophobic.

Chris Maka

Right

Sean Fields

It is nice to see faces that look
like your own from time to time.

Chris Maka

Representation is HUGE! It makes a
big difference, and we should embrace that

JL Franke

Along those lines, we do have the
quote from Michelle Rodriguez about diverse casting in superhero films: "Because of this whole 'minorities in
Hollywood' thing … it's so stupid. Stop
stealing all the white people's superheroes. Make up your own." I believe her point (based on her later
follow ups) was meant to be that she wanted to see minorities like her have
their own heroes rather than be shoehorned into another culture.

Sean Fields

Yeah, I got her point but to Chris'
point, it is hard to get to that point initially. Making non-Marvel/DC
superheroes is a tough gamble.

(I've always wondered if people do
this or if I'm the only weirdo but when I read books I like to put myself into
the role of the main characters until I'm told that they don't look like me.
Harder with comic books but maybe that is a discussion for another day?)

Chris Maka

I totally do that!

Obviously easier for me, because I
am male, and the whitest.

Sean Fields

LOL

JL Franke

I'd also separate the cases where
it's a different character taking on the mantle of a superhero (Miles Morales
as Spider-Man, Jane Foster as Thor, Connor Hawke as Green Arrow) versus the
underlying character being re-imagined (Wally West recreated as an
African-American character, Amanda Waller made skinny, Princess Projectra
recreated as a fashion-conscious snake).
In the former case, there's an addition to the legend, while in the
other, while something's added, something's lost.

pic

Jane Foster as Thor

Sean Fields

Those last two were definitely a
bit odd for me – Waller and Princess.

Chris Maka

Good points, Jerry, and yeah, same
here, Sean

Greg Morrow

Most of the characters I started
with are still the versions I prefer today -- for all that I joke about
"Saint Barry", Barry Allen is still my Flash. So I sympathize
strongly with the people who miss Captain Steve. It's not that Sam is black; it's
that he's not Steve.

But I have no problem AT ALL with
Captain Steve and Captain Sam standing next to each other.

JL Franke

I find I'm able to relate
regardless of race depending on the personality and experience of the
character. I mourned the reboot of Wally
(now undone as a separate Wally) not because I needed Wally to be white, but
because I identified greatly with the adult Wally that a suddenly young Wally
lost for me.

Greg Morrow

For all that the publishers
sometimes think that we're confused if two characters have the same name, we
don't.

DC has been having a lot of fun
with multiple Robins for the past several years. It can work.

Greg Morrow

We certainly seem to be in a phase
where duplicate names are common

Sean Fields

To the point of Cap, I kinda like
the fact that people in the comics gave Sam beef, because that was reality. I
also kinda prefer Sam as Falcon usually. He feels more like himself in that
role IMHO.

Chris Maka

Same here, Sean

Does it feel like the "new
characters don't do as well" thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy? I notice
that both DC and Marvel have long been reluctant to sink serious money into
promoting new characters.

Ms. Marvel they did because they
were (quite justifiably) very proud of the character. Although she's not a
completely new character concept per se either

Still bitter Unstoppable Wasp was cancelled.

Greg Morrow

I'm kind of xenophilic anyway, so
when the next legacy character is female or Muslim or black or gay or whatever
non-default characteristic, I kind of like it

Sean Fields

I love comic book creators, but I
think they (or maybe the publishers) can become lazy. We have a million Supermen.
The fear of a "new" character is ridiculous. Image did it for the
whole of the 1990s.

Greg Morrow

Part of Ms. Marvel's appeal is the
portrayal of an immigrant Muslim family – you get both the interesting new
details but the same universality of experience

Sean Fields

Hard to ride the line between
business and creativity maybe?

Yup, Greg. Me too

JL Franke

I think that was a complete cop out
by whichever Marvel exec said it.

Sean Fields

Confidence and faith in your
creation goes a long way, particularly if the idea is good.

Chris Maka

Oh totally, Jerry. And amen, Sean.

Greg Morrow

Comic book creators are justifiably
reluctant to hand over their awesome new character for a WFH [Work For Hire]
page rate, though, so the big two sometimes struggle to find awesome new
characters

Chris Maka

Do Marvel and DC still do decent
character creator packages? I know they were back when.

Greg Morrow

My understanding is that DC is
better about it than Marvel

I was told recently by a writer I
know that at the latest DC writer's retreat, editorial challenged them to
"create four new characters". Which just gives terrifying flashbacks
to Bloodlines, but I digress

Chris Maka

Good! But Greg, will DC follow
through and market them and support them for the, say, 24 issues to build a
solid audience?

JL Franke

That's my understanding as well,
Greg. Thank Paul Levitz among others for
the character creation package. Len Wein
earned far more for Lucius Fox than he ever did for Wolverine, which is a sin.

So hidden among the diversity
battles is something I'm similarly troubled by, which is DC and Marvel's war on
marriage. The idea that married = boring
and unwritable is just appalling to me.

Chris Maka

OH! Yes!

Greg Morrow

That's a good one.

JL Franke

I was ecstatic to see Mr. and Mrs.
Superman brought back.

Sean Fields

Yup, which is why I'm glad old
Superman is back.

Great minds, Jerry.

Greg Morrow

That's got to be a demographic
grab, though, assuming the audience is a) unmarried and b) can't relate.

When I was young, I aspired to a
healthy adult relationship like Barry Allen

Sean Fields

I get the argument, maybe, for like
Dick Grayson or even Peter Parker, maybe. But Clark needs Lois in my head, and
Barry needs Iris. And I'm unmarried and have no problems with married folks
being awesome.

Chris Maka

This has long been a pet peeve of
mine in the Legion: ostensibly "teen age" characters who pair off in
romantic relationships and stay together for YEARS without breaking up or
getting married or even cohabitating.

Greg Morrow

Assuming that comic book years pass
like our years is your problem there

JL Franke

That was why I loved the fact that
they finally let the Legion age – at least until they rebooted them.

Chris Maka

Teens and twenty-somethings do not,
for the most part, stay in long-term relationships. I am well acquainted with
comic book time, but come on. 😊

Greg Morrow

Not to restart the Legion
flamewars, but $#@! they were aging all along -- the Levitz v2 Legionnaires
were clearly older than the Levitz v1 Legionnaires, who were clearly older than
the Hamilton Legionnaires

Never been married, but we've had
decades of single Clark and single Peter.
To me, marriage was an *opportunity* for new stories, not a roadblock.

Chris Maka

Sean, exactly! And I agree, Jerry.

JL Franke

The multiverse is your friend.

Chris Maka

Yes. And boy I wish Marvel and DC
would better organize the current state of their respective multiverses.

Sean Fields

Clark should never be single. Lois
or Lana grounds him. Peter single is good when it is funny to make him a sad
sack.

Greg Morrow

Part of my reaction to Legion
relationship stability is again, aspirational – I want a stable relationship

Chris Maka

Greg, I am with you there, but they
shouldn't ALL be that stable. Representation matters, which should include
realistic and understandable foibles of youth, right?

Greg Morrow

I agree it's not naturalistic, but
hey, utopian science fiction future with superpowers, you lost big chunks of
naturalism on page 1.

JL Franke

They weren't all stable. Vi and Ayla breaking out on their own and
then hooking up was certainly not keeping the status quo.

Greg Morrow

The superheroes should have the
good relationships. The bad guys and NPCs should have the bad relationships.
Aspirational.

They were pretty stable up to
second Levitz, which introduced some variability slowly.

Chris Maka

For that matter, there are lots of
foibles, like drug use, that comics still tend to treat like OMG THE HORROR!
THE HORROR! that are very common and casual parts of people's lives – and I
don't even mean just recreational drugs.

Sean Fields

This is kinda crazy because I can
name two marriages that were kinda iffy but still lasted in the Richards and
Pym with Van Dyne.

How about instead demonstrating
good relationship navigation skills? The ability to deal with break-ups and
whatnot without becoming a creeper would be good too.

JL Franke

I'm not sure if the Pyms are a
relationship for Greg to aspire to.

Sean Fields

I hope not. Ha!

Chris Maka

Why are the two options Barry and
Iris or the Pyms?

Am I the only person who dated more
than one person before getting married?

Sean Fields

Marriage is for suckers!

Joking.

Chris Maka

Am I a villain or an NPC? See,
you've alienated me out of comics. 😊

Greg Morrow

lol

JL Franke

There was a great relationship in
between those two in the Parkers.

Sean Fields

(Unrelated, I now want to figure
out a way to make Bloodlines good.)

Chris Maka

Can’t be done. Kidding. I think.

Greg Morrow

I have lost track of any point I
may have been trying to make – I'll just say that obviously marriage is not the
end of stories.

Chris Maka

I agree. And I am okay with stable
long term relationships, but I'm also okay with relationships not working in a
healthy way.

They've done good stuff with Peter
Parker at times in this regard

JL Franke

I think it's about diversity. Everything being one way is just boring.

Chris Maka

Right

Okay, to veer in a different direction
now: In the previous session we talked about how superheroes were born out of
Rooseveltian liberalism of WWII era America. And through all the decades they
have maintained at least elements of what is now called "Social
Justice". But.

Superhero comics have, and continue
to, be very uncompassionate towards certain types of people or actions that
liberals are normally more supportive of. For instance, we know that a lot of
street crime is born out of poverty and is an understandable if illegal
survival strategy. But superheroes routinely just beat the shit out of all
street criminals without much discernment if any. Are they not promoting the
Rush Limbaugh party line on poverty and unemployment and other actual liberal
issues?

Greg Morrow

Captain America's variant John
Wesley rule: Punch all the Nazis you can, by all the means you can, in all the
ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, as long as
you ever can.

Yes.

Chris Maka

I don’t think street criminals
should be equated with Nazis, and I know you don’t either.

Greg Morrow

We occasionally see Batman's Wayne
Foundation doing useful things, and Batman referring people to Wayne Foundation
programs. Fairly common in the sort of Wein era.

JL Franke

I think it depends. If the criminals are threatening others, that
goes beyond "here's a social program for you" state, at least in that
moment.

When there's not a threat to the
safety of others, I think that's where we start seeing the spectrum of
potential approaches between, say, The Punisher and Spider-Man.

Sean Fields

Batman 44 is about police
brutality, poverty, and Batman actually talking to the brother of a person he
beat up instead of assuming he is just a criminal.

Greg Morrow

But yeah, Spider-Man hangs a whole
lot of muggers up for the cops without investigating why they're mugging.
That's Spider-Man's iconic action.

Sounds like an interesting story,
Sean

Sean Fields

It was different.

Greg Morrow

I think some of it is born out of
necessity from the serial form – superheroes need to do something superheroic
every issue, and punching a mugger is an easy go-to.

Batman's War on Poverty isn't quite
as dramatic as Batman's War on Gangs

Chris Maka

If writers are going to bring a
liberal bent to their work, should they make an effort to be a little better on
the issues? Or would that lose too much of the fantasy fun element?

Greg Morrow

I think I'd want to do some kind of
era-based survey to get a handle on how much social justice v. unthinking fists
of justice we see

Chris Maka

I'd love to see such a survey. Let's
lean on Jess Nevins -- he doesn't have anything else going on! :-D

Sean Fields

It would lose the fun element but
it's not drastic fantasy. A lot of social justice is just lip service to the
results of a problem but not the actual roots of the power.

Chris Maka

Sean, I think you just nailed it

Sean Fields

Even in real life it's easier to
talk about stopping crime and not the origins of it.

Chris Maka

And I don't think all superhero
comics should address that, but it would be interesting if one or more did. And
not in an annoying, preachy way.

Sean Fields

The Nighthawk miniseries kinda did
in a dark Marvel Batman way, a bit.

Chris Maka

Oh yeah, good one!

JL Franke

Superheroes like Spider-Man aren't
fighting a mission for social justice any more than police officers are tasked
with repairing societal fractures.
They're both there to try to protect the innocent and (at least in the
case of the cops) enforce the law. They're not there to determine whether an
illegal act is warranted, as that's what the courts are for.

Chris Maka

Yeah, superhero stories are really
only focused on the first of the three parts of criminal justice, for the most
part. I get that it’s the nature of heroic fiction.

Ha! I'm going to flip-flop a
little, because I HATE the relevant era of comics, but that's because Denny was
really bad at politics. But part of that is the fantasy versus reality conflict
we're talking about

Yes you can! "I saved the Earth 12 times. You know, where the black skins live?"

Greg Morrow

It was a big step forward for
comics, which is mostly saying how bad comics were before.

Not how good relevant actually was,
because relevant was clumsy, preachy, sometimes deaf, but points for trying.

Sean Fields

It's also hard for someone to talk
about issues when you aren't living the life or only understanding it secondary
or in the abstract.

Which is why representation beyond
how the characters look is important. Representation on the creative side.

Chris Maka

OOOOH, Sean, great point! Which
reminds me that I'm glad DC and Marvel are bringing in so many diverse creative
voices these days.

Greg Morrow

Yes.

Chris Maka

Not that they can't do more.

Greg Morrow

We need more Canadian guys writing
comics. 😊

Chris Maka

Just Justin Trudeau. Because we
need Justin Trudeau doing everything.

"My mere presence makes this article 65% better, eh?"

Sean Fields

Which is also why independent
comics are important as well, to give a voice.

Greg Morrow

I was recently impressed with Black.

Chris Maka

Yeah, we have leaned really heavily
on DC in Marvel in these discussions, while not digging in enough on indie
titles.

Greg Morrow

Black's premise was not exactly
novel -- Truth covered some of it, Milestone covered some of it -- but Black
took it further, and was deeply grounded in American racial tensions, I think.

Sean Fields

I only read the first issue of that
and it was a good start. Gotta finish it.

We need to one day just make a list
of indie titles to read. I don't read enough of them.

Greg Morrow

Hard to argue with Jamal Igle on
art.

Chris Maka

Yeah, I agree. That would be a good
5W Friday Panel topic: Everyone recommends a different indie title and says why
they recommend it.

Okay, that’s gonna do it for Part
Two of our first roundtable panel. Thanks to everyone who participated, and
thanks to everyone who’s read all the way through both parts! We would really
appreciate some comments down in the comments section below.