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I'd like to caution against the method being used against this product. Not that the product isn't unproven and woo - it almost certainly is. What I object to is the notion that because a chemical is used for one purpose (bleach) it should be viewed solely in terms of that purpose. This is a mistake.

The dose they are promoting does not make it "similar to oven cleaner." These guys aren't quite so idiotic as all that. And it's the same logic that tries to scare people away from vaccinations or cooking in aluminum pots.

Sodium Hypochlorite may or may not have the effect these people say, but the answer to that question comes, not by painting the chemical as "bad," but by demonstrating whether or not it works. The claim is unproven.

We do ourselves no good by misunderstanding dose-response relationships and the varied uses any single chemical entity may have. Sure, baking soda is used as a cleaning agent, but it works good in my cookie recipe as well, and will help settle my acid reflux after I eat too many.

Teach the science and the woo will fall away without having to use the "chemistry is scary" bit.

Anyway .. as for MMS, IMHO it's same as drugs, police should get on it hard. Just telling people it does not work and it is actually harmful is not enough. And that's for people trying it for smallest of troubles .. people with terminal illness obviously will eat anything, if they get even a glimpse of hope from someone.
Sure, you will always be able to get the chemical in some other way .. but someone selling it as cure, or diet complement, should by stopped NOW.

I'd like to caution against the method being used against this product. Not that the product isn't unproven and woo - it almost certainly is. What I object to is the notion that because a chemical is used for one purpose (bleach) it should be viewed solely in terms of that purpose. This is a mistake.

The dose they are promoting does not make it "similar to oven cleaner." These guys aren't quite so idiotic as all that. And it's the same logic that tries to scare people away from vaccinations or cooking in aluminum pots.

Sodium Hypochlorite may or may not have the effect these people say, but the answer to that question comes, not by painting the chemical as "bad," but by demonstrating whether or not it works. The claim is unproven.

We do ourselves no good by misunderstanding dose-response relationships and the varied uses any single chemical entity may have. Sure, baking soda is used as a cleaning agent, but it works good in my cookie recipe as well, and will help settle my acid reflux after I eat too many.

Teach the science and the woo will fall away without having to use the "chemistry is scary" bit.

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, not sodium hypochlorite. I don't dispute the general tenet of your post, but you're confusing two different chemicals.

Moreover, I would say that the pH they established in itself is already sign of danger, even in small doses.

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Anyway .. as for MMS, IMHO it's same as drugs, police should get on it hard. Just telling people it does not work and it is actually harmful is not enough. And that's for people trying it for smallest of troubles .. people with terminal illness obviously will eat anything, if they get even a glimpse of hope from someone.
Sure, you will always be able to get the chemical in some other way .. but someone selling it as cure, or diet complement, should by stopped NOW.

I would love to see the people behind that prosecuted for assault, or even better, attempted murder.

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

I'm not confusing them. Did you not know that baking soda is used as a household cleaner?

I would think that you'd read the linked article first. It talks about sodium chlorite and sodium hypochlorite. The thread title mentions "bleach", which commonly refers to the latter. Not to sodium bicarbonate..

Originally Posted by marplots

Could you explain this? At what pH and quantity of solution is the material being used?

Again, haven't you read the article? The solution has a pH between 12 and 14. AFAIK, there's no part of the human body that is tolerant of such alkaline stuff. Quantity: 60 drops in a drink.

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

From the article in the OP:"Dr Dan Cornwell of KCL tested the pH of the substance. It showed up as about pH 12 or 14. On the pH scale, 7 is neutral – distilled water would be pH 7 – while 0 is highly acidic and 14 is highly alkaline. Household bleaches such as sodium hypochlorite commonly have a pH of 11 or 12. If Aerobic Oxygen was salty water, as the ingredients list claimed, it would be roughly neutral."

OK, so we have a base solution at pH of "12 or 14." Setting aside the rather surprisingly inaccurate result obtained by Dr. Dan Cornwell, let's go with 14.

Now, the instructions say (again from the article):"On Vitalox’s website, Aerobic Oxygen is described as “the basic foundation of good health – healthy cells”. The company recommends that you consume 60 drops of Aerobic Oxygen per day in “any cold drink”, or use it with toothpaste (“2-3 drops on your toothbrush to inhibit disease bacteria”) or as mouthwash (“Add 10 drops to a small amount of water”)."

60 drops is about a milliliter of fluid (some variation based on viscosity, but close enough). The high pH I have no idea about, since I don't see how that could be from the sodium chlorite alone. But in any case, dilution is the solution for the pH concerns.

Do I think it's a good idea to take sodium chlorite solution in the first place? No, that's nutty. But harmful? Maybe; not obviously so as described.

There's more to this sad tale than the article in the OP mentions, which is my main complaint.

From the article in the OP:"Dr Dan Cornwell of KCL tested the pH of the substance. It showed up as about pH 12 or 14. On the pH scale, 7 is neutral – distilled water would be pH 7 – while 0 is highly acidic and 14 is highly alkaline. Household bleaches such as sodium hypochlorite commonly have a pH of 11 or 12. If Aerobic Oxygen was salty water, as the ingredients list claimed, it would be roughly neutral."

OK, so we have a base solution at pH of "12 or 14." Setting aside the rather surprisingly inaccurate result obtained by Dr. Dan Cornwell, let's go with 14.

Now, the instructions say (again from the article):"On Vitalox’s website, Aerobic Oxygen is described as “the basic foundation of good health – healthy cells”. The company recommends that you consume 60 drops of Aerobic Oxygen per day in “any cold drink”, or use it with toothpaste (“2-3 drops on your toothbrush to inhibit disease bacteria”) or as mouthwash (“Add 10 drops to a small amount of water”)."

60 drops is about a milliliter of fluid (some variation based on viscosity, but close enough). The high pH I have no idea about, since I don't see how that could be from the sodium chlorite alone. But in any case, dilution is the solution for the pH concerns.

Do I think it's a good idea to take sodium chlorite solution in the first place? No, that's nutty. But harmful? Maybe; not obviously so as described.

There's more to this sad tale than the article in the OP mentions, which is my main complaint.

you need more info here you go.
link sciencebasedmedicinedotorg/bleaching-away-what-ails-you/
MMS is nasty stuff, a powerful oxidizer. that will cause problems even in its
diluted form.

It's not just the pH that is the problem. 60 ml of pH 14 in your stomach will end up at pH 2 anyway (though what it does to your esophagus is probably not good in the long term).
However, Hypochlorate that comes into contact with acid will from Chlorine gas and the more acidic, the quicker.
Given that it is consumed this means it will form the gas in the stomach, from which it will escape and then hit the lungs.
Now, I'm not an expert on chlorine poisoning, so I don't know if it is purely threshold dependent or whether it can also be systemic, but it will happen.

For most other bases (the bicarbonate example for instance) this is not an issue as they will produce either water, or water and carbondioxide.

That being said, the LD50 value is 192 mg/kg, so it doesnt seem to be horribly toxic.

It's not just the pH that is the problem. 60 ml of pH 14 in your stomach will end up at pH 2 anyway (though what it does to your esophagus is probably not good in the long term).
However, Hypochlorate that comes into contact with acid will from Chlorine gas and the more acidic, the quicker.
Given that it is consumed this means it will form the gas in the stomach, from which it will escape and then hit the lungs.
Now, I'm not an expert on chlorine poisoning, so I don't know if it is purely threshold dependent or whether it can also be systemic, but it will happen.

For most other bases (the bicarbonate example for instance) this is not an issue as they will produce either water, or water and carbondioxide.

That being said, the LD50 value is 192 mg/kg, so it doesnt seem to be horribly toxic.

I'm gonna get stuck sounding like I'm supporting the woo. I really don't. But the top dose was 60 drops, or about 1 ml, not 60 ml. And that was for a whole day. Even at a pH of 14 (which is doubtful, given the chemical as sodium chlorite ['ite' not 'ate'] - that's not going to get you to pH 14), but anyhow, diluted into a liter gets you right away to a pH of 11.

Think about it. If it were really poisonous at the dose they are using, we'd be expecting these people to be dropping like flies. Maybe it kills them over time, I don't know. They are foolish to experiment with it and criminal if they treat their kids with it - but so are people who use homeopathic remedies.

I had a bottle of 30% H2O2 in the fridge for awhile - dangerous stuff. It'll burn you. It's also used in paper/pulp bleaching. I have a bottle of 3% we use as a disinfectant. Dilute that in half and it makes a good ear wax remover. Some people use it at that strength for a mouthwash or gargle.

Now, suppose someone were to recommend a few drops of 30% hydrogen peroxide in a glass of orange juice to cure autism. My first response wouldn't be, "Hey, that stuff has been used in rocket fuel and industrial bleaching!"

No, I think my first response would be, "Do you seriously believe this will help autism? For God's sake, why?!"

Now, suppose someone were to recommend a few drops of 30% hydrogen peroxide in a glass of orange juice to cure autism. My first response wouldn't be, "Hey, that stuff has been used in rocket fuel and industrial bleaching!"

No, I think my first response would be, "Do you seriously believe this will help autism? For God's sake, why?!"

Well said.

__________________"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, not sodium hypochlorite. I don't dispute the general tenet of your post, but you're confusing two different chemicals.

I read it as an analogy. Baking soda can be used as a cleaning agent, but can also be safe to consume. So assuming that bleach can never be safe to consume simply because it is can be used as a cleaning agent is unwarranted.

__________________"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

of this material for the purpose quoted zero!
hypochlorite is what i put in my pool, the dilution is 160,000 to one.
5 drops of household bleach will treat a gallon of ditch water.
did you read the article?
from the OP,s article

The Food Standards Agency says that “when taken as directed [MMS] could cause severe nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea, potentially leading to dehydration and reduced blood pressure”, adding: “If the solution is diluted less than instructed, it could cause damage to the gut and red blood cells, potentially resulting in respiratory failure.” It says MMS and similar, more dilute, substances should be avoided.

Aerobic Oxygen’s own website says: “If you are taking too much Aerobic Oxygen (detoxifying too fast), your body will tell you with an upset stomach, loose bowels or possibly headaches. This is not dangerous, just uncomfortable. Listen to your body; start at a lower dose and gradually increase.”

even the guy selling the stuff admits side effects at the 60 drops dosage.

of this material for the purpose quoted zero!
hypochlorite is what i put in my pool, the dilution is 160,000 to one.
5 drops of household bleach will treat a gallon of ditch water.
did you read the article?
from the OP,s article

The Food Standards Agency says that “when taken as directed [MMS] could cause severe nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea, potentially leading to dehydration and reduced blood pressure”, adding: “If the solution is diluted less than instructed, it could cause damage to the gut and red blood cells, potentially resulting in respiratory failure.” It says MMS and similar, more dilute, substances should be avoided.

Aerobic Oxygen’s own website says: “If you are taking too much Aerobic Oxygen (detoxifying too fast), your body will tell you with an upset stomach, loose bowels or possibly headaches. This is not dangerous, just uncomfortable. Listen to your body; start at a lower dose and gradually increase.”

even the guy selling the stuff admits side effects at the 60 drops dosage.

You are all over the map here, it's hard to make sense of what you posted.

If zero is what you consider a safe dose, why are you using it in your swimming pool? Let's put that down to hyperbole.

Next, there are two different products being talked about as if they were the same.

Next, you cite a list of pretty horrendous effects but then notice those effects aren't the usual experience, but only the result of upping the dose (of which product I am not sure).

Next (and I've probably gotten my "nexts" out of order by now) you give me the "5 drops of household bleach will treat a gallon of ditch water." Here we might have something we can double check. Household bleach is fairly standard (although not the same as either product we were discussing) and I'm going to imagine by "treat" you mean something like "disinfect" or "make potable" (safe to drink). Ditch water had no standard usage, but I'm picturing something running on the side of a roadway, not particularly foul (like sewage) but not safe to drink.

From the EPA on water disinfection in an emergency:Use the table below as a guide to decide the amount of bleach you should add to the water, for example, add 6 drops of bleach to each gallon of water. Double the amount of bleach if the water is cloudy, colored, or very cold.Glass containers
Stir and let stand for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn’t, repeat the dosage and let stand for another 15 minutes before use.https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and...drinking-water

The reason for the wait 30 minutes and smell and then add more bit is because bleach (including the forms in the products we are discussing) will react with whatever is in the water. The dirtier the water, the more you need to add. And we should note that drinking water that has the smell of chlorine is considered better than drinking possibly tainted water. But even here we get a range - from 6 to 24 drops, depending on circumstances.

Where does all this leave us? It leaves us without the necessary questions answered. We simply can't tell what's going on. They don't give accurate product concentrations or dosing. They don't give a mechanism of action, diagnostic criteria, or treatment protocols. And that's the trouble -- this isn't science, it's people shooting from the hip and other people selling crap to those people.

Let me bang my drum again on one specific point: if we hang our objections on the chemical being harmful, then we should be satisfied if the sellers changed the recommended use so that it wasn't, perhaps dipping into the homeopathy sauce. But that wouldn't satisfy me at all. I'm suggesting the harm isn't obviously from the chemical, but from the mindset that has people using an unproven drug to treat a catch-all bag of diseases.

I can't bring myself to believe the scaremongering (from the debunker camp) is ethical, even if that's the best way to reach victims of the scam.

Actually, this is shaping to be an interesting chemistry question combining redox reactions, pH and toxicity doses

I might actually use it in a class.

Someone uses oxywater as prescribed and takes 1ml. The active component is NaClO at a concentration of X M.
a. Assuming no reaction occurs in the esophagus give the two half reactions occuring in the stomach and the complete reaction.
b. If the stomach is pH 2 and has a volume of 450 ml at the time, what pH will the stomach end up with (assume all acid in the stomach is fully dissociated)
c. If Cl2 gas is formed, will this exceed dangerous levels or remain below? (assume total air volume of 5L and lung damage will occur at 60ppm)

it only needs the concentration to be complete. Though to be fair part c does give a hint as to what redox reactions to use. It might need some refining, but it looks challenging.

Actually, this is shaping to be an interesting chemistry question combining redox reactions, pH and toxicity doses

I might actually use it in a class.

Someone uses oxywater as prescribed and takes 1ml. The active component is NaClO at a concentration of X M.
a. Assuming no reaction occurs in the esophagus give the two half reactions occuring in the stomach and the complete reaction.
b. If the stomach is pH 2 and has a volume of 450 ml at the time, what pH will the stomach end up with (assume all acid in the stomach is fully dissociated)
c. If Cl2 gas is formed, will this exceed dangerous levels or remain below? (assume total air volume of 5L and lung damage will occur at 60ppm)

it only needs the concentration to be complete. Though to be fair part c does give a hint as to what redox reactions to use. It might need some refining, but it looks challenging.

You are all over the map here, it's hard to make sense of what you posted.

If zero is what you consider a safe dose, why are you using it in your swimming pool? Let's put that down to hyperbole.

Next, there are two different products being talked about as if they were the same.

Next, you cite a list of pretty horrendous effects but then notice those effects aren't the usual experience, but only the result of upping the dose (of which product I am not sure).

Next (and I've probably gotten my "nexts" out of order by now) you give me the "5 drops of household bleach will treat a gallon of ditch water." Here we might have something we can double check. Household bleach is fairly standard (although not the same as either product we were discussing) and I'm going to imagine by "treat" you mean something like "disinfect" or "make potable" (safe to drink). Ditch water had no standard usage, but I'm picturing something running on the side of a roadway, not particularly foul (like sewage) but not safe to drink.

From the EPA on water disinfection in an emergency:
[i]Use the table below as a guide to decide the amount of bleach you should add to the water, for example, add 6 drops of bleach to each gallon of water. Double the amount of bleach if the water is cloudy, colored, or very cold.Glass containers
Stir and let stand for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn’t, repeat the dosage and let stand for another 15 minutes water/emergency-disinfection-drinking-water[/url]

The reason for the wait 30 minutes and smell and then add more bit is because bleach (including the forms in the products we are discussing) will react with whatever is in the water. The dirtier the water, the more you need to add. And we should note that drinking water that has the smell of chlorine is considered better than drinking possibly tainted water. But even here we get a range - from 6 to 24 drops, depending on circumstances.

Where does all this leave us? It leaves us without the necessary questions answered. We simply can't tell what's going on. They don't give accurate product concentrations or dosing. They don't give a mechanism of action, diagnostic criteria, or treatment protocols. And that's the trouble -- this isn't science, it's people shooting from the hip and other people selling crap to those people.

Let me bang my drum again on one specific point: if we hang our objections on the chemical being harmful, then we should be satisfied if the sellers changed the recommended use so that it wasn't, perhaps dipping into the homeopathy sauce. But that wouldn't satisfy me at all. I'm suggesting the harm isn't obviously from the chemical, but from the mindset that has people using an unproven drug to treat a catch-all bag of diseases.

I can't bring myself to believe the scaremongering (from the debunker camp) is ethical, even if that's the best way to reach victims of the scam.

you asked what i thought was a safe dose, i am going to stay with zero.
Aerobic Oxygen the product in question is mislabeled. if it was correctly labeled we would know exactly what we were dealing with. the web site says
the PH is 13 about what the lab measured. i am going to go with the lab that it is either sodium hypo chlorite or chlorate. now who is at fault that we don't
know? the web site also suggests the product be used to disinfect water, so
it seems they know its bleach.
they make highly implausible heath claims.
product is mislabeled.
lab says nasty stuff in bottle, highly reactive and corrosive.
for no benefit the correct dose is zero.
as for the oven cleaner comment, i found that fair. same main active ingredient in both, where else would the average UK citizen come into
contact with sodium hypo chlorite.it was only mentioned once and not used in the headline.
as for MMS is there any real difference ? both give every indication of being
bleach when tested and the marketing for both screams scam.
the possible harm is very real. go back and read that paragraph again,the
first word is could not will. not my words The "Food Standards Agency" words.
do you have reason to think they are wrong? then lets have a cite. the MMS
people claim those symptoms are the stuff working. the Aerobic Oxygen site
cautions to cut the dose for upset stomach, so not new to them.
my objections are to lies, to injuries and fraud, did i miss anything?

A 2000 QuackWatch article about similar "stabilized" or "aerobic" oxygen sold in the USA and the FTC response: FTC Attacks "Stabilized Oxygen" Claims.
In that case it was actually salt water rather than the equivalent of bleach as is probable in this case.

I don't like it when woo-sellers scaremonger. When they tell me I'm polluting my body with toxins because products like Coca Cola contain Phosphoric Acid - a chemical used as an industrial rust remover and toilet bowl cleaner.

1) Am I worried that the FDA approves sodium chlorite as a bleaching agent for starches used in the food industry? Not particularly, no.

2) Are the products, as sold and as instructed for use, harmful? I can't tell.

3) Are these products helpful? We can't tell that either, they haven't proven it.

The evidence for both statements 2 and 3 is anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence is the ally of woo-meisters, not me.

If they want to claim some beneficial effect, then the burden is on them to do so. If I want to claim some harmful effect, then the burden is on me to do so. My contention is that I don't have to claim a harmful effect to dismiss the product, since they haven't shown any benefit. This is just as true if the thing they are selling is inert or dangerous.

The oral, acute LD50 (in rats) for sodium chlorite is listed as 165 mg/Kg. That's a start. So how much sodium chlorite is in the product as administered? I haven't seen where anyone has taken the trouble to find out, which is surprising.

The oral, acute LD50 (in rats) for Sodium Fluoride is 52mg/Kg. But I want it in my water supply. The oral, acute LD50 (in rats) for Phosphoric Acid is 1530mg/Kg - but I want it in my Dr. Pepper.

Note: Sodium Hypochlorite and Sodium Chlorite and Sodium Chlorate are all different compounds. The OP link talks about the chlorite.

A 2000 QuackWatch article about similar "stabilized" or "aerobic" oxygen sold in the USA and the FTC response: FTC Attacks "Stabilized Oxygen" Claims.
In that case it was actually salt water rather than the equivalent of bleach as is probable in this case.

I wonder how long it would take a competent chemist, in a decent lab, to tell us exactly what the ingredients were? (Besides bull ****, which has to be about 85 - 90%.)

Might be trickier because of the different but closely related species floating around in the mix. I saw one list of ingredients (in German) for a product with the same name that had NaCl, Na2CO3, NaClO2 and Na2SO4 all listed.

I read it as an analogy. Baking soda can be used as a cleaning agent, but can also be safe to consume. So assuming that bleach can never be safe to consume simply because it is can be used as a cleaning agent is unwarranted.

Might be trickier because of the different but closely related species floating around in the mix. I saw one list of ingredients (in German) for a product with the same name that had NaCl, Na2CO3, NaClO2 and Na2SO4 all listed.

Recommended dose: Take 2-3 times a day, 5 to 20 drops in 200 ml water or other liquid. The recommended dose is nearly taste and odorless.

Do not put the concentrate into direct contact with the eyes, rinse with water.
Do not place in direct sunlight and keep out of reach of children."

The word in <> is one of those horrible german compound words I suck at translating. Leistungs means to do something, and fähigkeit means ability
I have no idea what they mean with stabilizing oxygen to sodium chloride, but it is what they say.

The direct sunlight is clear though, if NaClO is a good oxidizer, NaClO2 is way better and in the presence of sunlight this will start reacting with water removing the presumed active ingredient.

Interestingly, appearantly EPA norms for the stuff is 1mg/L of drinking water, but since this label still does not give anything close to concentrations I have no clue wether toxic levels are reached or not.

I'm not sure why they mention the electrolyte. A salt dissolved in water IS an electrolyte, and it contains that, so why mention it again?

A simple set of salt precipitations should be able to show the carbonate, chloride and sulphate. Adding a small amount of acid and smelling chlorine gas should confirm the chlorite.

Where does all this leave us? It leaves us without the necessary questions answered. We simply can't tell what's going on. They don't give accurate product concentrations or dosing. They don't give a mechanism of action, diagnostic criteria, or treatment protocols. And that's the trouble -- this isn't science, it's people shooting from the hip and other people selling crap to those people.

Let me bang my drum again on one specific point: if we hang our objections on the chemical being harmful, then we should be satisfied if the sellers changed the recommended use so that it wasn't, perhaps dipping into the homeopathy sauce. But that wouldn't satisfy me at all. I'm suggesting the harm isn't obviously from the chemical, but from the mindset that has people using an unproven drug to treat a catch-all bag of diseases.

This is the interesting bit for me. Aside from the technical bits earlier, which points to it being ineffective (which we would expect), there is a lack of information. The challenge would be to frame this in a way as to persuade someone that it won't work with the information at hand. The issue of exposure limits is an important point in this.

What I get from this so far is that they seem to be far exceeding any recommended dose of bleach (or similar) with a view to induce a fever (this is a guess, so would be good if someone could confirm this), which is unlikely to be without harm, for a short term gain, and at great cost, making unscrupulous people rich.

But the "why" is important. If we can answer "Why won't it work?" in a clear way, it will be a big part of the issue. But I can't imagine there will be many peer reviewed studies into giving autistic kids bleach type substances.

Quote:

I can't bring myself to believe the scaremongering (from the debunker camp) is ethical, even if that's the best way to reach victims of the scam.

I would not justify spreading a lie for such a cause. It is like any other cause though, some feel it justifies the ends, when it is counter productive in almost every case.

What I am also cautious of is spreading message, as per the debunkers guide. Ie. people read about it, but a lack of clarity leads them to forget that it is harmful and ineffective. Something I am concerned that you could be close to doing.

__________________"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."