I see that most people are saying that you shouldn't call suicide a selfish act. My dad committed suicide 4 years ago and I can honestly say it was the most selfish thing he could have done. I understand (in my own way) what his reasons may have been, but it is my personal belief that nothing is that bad. There is nothing that cannot be overcome with time. I'm speaking from simply a personal experience and not generalizing. But I have seen and had the distruction it can cause to those left behind. My dad left behind two young sons neither that had reached the age of 6 to grow up without a father. Neither of the boys understand what our dad did and why he is not around anymore. I'm sorry if I sound like a comeplete bitch, but that to me is the most selfish thing a person can do. to leave a family to pick up the pieces of what they distroyed. I grew up until my late teenage years without knowing my dad and met him when i was 17. I knew him for 2 years untill he died. Don't get me wrong I love my father and always will. I would do anything to see him again and have him back, but it kills me to know that my brothers will never see their dad again.It's a difficult subject and is vastly on the rise for one of the leading causes of deaths, But i honestly believe that if people were more open to the idea of actually getting psychological help with probelms and issues then maybe this wouldn't be such a huge issue.

I think that suicide in many cases stems from a person not being equiped with the proper psychological resources to deal with his problems.Therefore it's generaly a realy bad choice, for lack of better adjectives.I mean statistics show a great deal of suicidals change their minds at very last second, yet not all of them suirvive to regret it.I can understand suicide in some cases though.I mean if you've got a medical condition that makes you suffer in excrutiating pain every single second, I can understand why someone may want to end his suffering.That being said I think suicide is acceptable only as a sort of "final solution" when there's literaly nothing you can do to change things-when you've got nothing to loose.Being bullied at school? Well you're not gonna be in school your entire life.Unemployed and in poverty? Who said nothing will change?I mean you never know what may happen tomorrow... But as mentioned above, suffering excutiating pain every waking moment, with no or low possibility of cure?Well I can certainly see why someone would consider doing it...Generaly though it's your life (regardless of what certain faiths may claim) and you choose how to live it.Or stop living it for that matter

I consider suicide to be a human right, and wholly and completely acceptable. I am in complete support of euthanasia and assisted suicide, and I believe our lives and our bodies belong to ourselves, and it is our right to end them when we please.

[insert rant about the principle of autonomy and decrying the evils of paternalism here]

I think that it's entirely up to a person whether they can end their life or not. For those who say that it's selfish when you have others relying on you, whilst I guess that's true, it's also very selfish to guilt a person into staying alive just to make life easier for yourselves, when they're clearly having a horrible time.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where suicide is very irresponsible (girlfriend left you, you have young children etc.), but it should always be up to that person whether they want to or not.

Suicide isn't the easy way out, and it's definitely not the most selfish thing someone could do. The most selfish thing someone could do is to demand that another person, whom they supposedly love, should languish in constant emotional pain so that they don't have to experience loss for a brief period of time. That's selfish. It's asking the person to go to lengths for you which you're not willing to even approach for them. Certainly, you don't just "get over" something like that, but unless it actually makes you kill yourself, too, I don't think it's very fair to compare your pain to theirs.

The saddest thing I've ever heard was a story of, I believe it was a Dutch woman, whose daughter struggled with depression her entire life, most of which was peppered with stays in psychiatric care that failed to help her. She sought assisted suicide and, after being turned down, and after being released from protective care following that request, she overdosed herself. The woman said her daughter died alone, clutching a stuffed animal for company, instead of her mother's hand, because her only option to do it was in secrecy. It's infuriating that something like that should happen in a "civilized" society.

Any value is warmer than absolute zero, even though 250K (-23C) might feel pretty cold.

Point being, that no matter how bad your life might seen, it's better than wasting your one chance. You are so incredibly luck to be alive and self aware, that throwing that opportunity away is a crime, most of all towards yourself.

PeterMerkin69:Suicide isn't the easy way out, and it's definitely not the most selfish thing someone could do. The most selfish thing someone could do is to demand that another person, whom they supposedly love, should languish in constant emotional pain so that they don't have to experience loss for a brief period of time. That's selfish.

Except that for people who are supporting young children/elderly parents and so on, it's not a brief loss. You're looking at throwing their lives into not just emotional turmoil but also financial turmoil, and that's something that can last for years. A colleague of mine had a parent kill himself when she was in school (and when her sisters were young children), and the financial impact on their family was massive - and that's without getting into the emotional impact.

That's not to dismiss the suffering of the person living with a mental illness, but they don't make decisions in a vacuum.

Raikas:Except that for people who are supporting young children/elderly parents and so on, it's not a brief loss. You're looking at throwing their lives into not just emotional turmoil but also financial turmoil, and that's something that can last for years. A colleague of mine had a parent kill himself when she was in school (and when her sisters were young children), and the financial impact on their family was massive - and that's without getting into the emotional impact.

That's not to dismiss the suffering of the person living with a mental illness, but they don't make decisions in a vacuum.

If all they want the person around for is financial security then I don't see why the person who wants to kill themselves should care. I'd think that would have the opposite effect, actually. "Don't kill yourself, we need your money! Also, we probably love you." Okay! Bye.

I don't believe children have any obligations to their parents on account of not having had a say in their existence to begin with. It is different for their own young children, but only until they're old enough to provide for themselves. And even then, that's why we have social safety nets. You spend your whole life contributing to them, you may as well take advantage of them sometime.

I have a pretty soft heart so I feel sad each and every time.I constantly hear people say "Well, people die and commit suicide all the time, you might as well get used to it."No. I don't think I can.You can get shot in the foot every day, I don't think you'd get used to it.

PeterMerkin69:If all they want the person around for is financial security then I don't see why the person who wants to kill themselves should care. I'd think that would have the opposite effect, actually. "Don't kill yourself, we need your money! Also, we probably love you." Okay! Bye.

Wow, that's not even close to what I was saying. A 6-year-old doesn't look at his or her parents in that way at all - but it's a fact that two-income families are more financially secure than single income families. And if that other parent is mourning and paying for a funeral, that's not going to be promoting fantastic parenting either.

Losing a parent to a non-self-inflicted death or even divorce is associated with a lower standard of living - add the stigma of suicide to that and how can you not see that effecting the family?

I don't believe children have any obligations to their parents on account of not having had a say in their existence to begin with.

Fair enough - but if that child has taken it upon themselves to care for an elderly parent, then that's still a responsibility that they're chosing to abandon. Brushing it off with "they can use social assistance" is incredibly dismissive, and ignores the fact that some people may be in countries where that's a very limited option, or where it doesn't provide nearly the same level of support.

Raikas:Wow, that's not even close to what I was saying. A 6-year-old doesn't look at his or her parents in that way at all - but it's a fact that two-income families are more financially secure than single income families. And if that other parent is mourning and paying for a funeral, that's not going to be promoting fantastic parenting either.

Losing a parent to a non-self-inflicted death or even divorce is associated with a lower standard of living - add the stigma of suicide to that and how can you not see that effecting the family?

Tit for tat? I never said suicide happened in a vacuum, either, but that didn't stop you from making strawman arguments as if I had.

I agree there's selfishness on both sides, but when both sides are selfish, no one really has a great claim to the moral high ground. Since the suicide victim's the one who has to shoulder a greater share of the burden for their decision(live a life you don't want, or permanently erased yourself from existence), it's easier for me to sympathize with them. It's easier for me to sympathize with people who are so miserable that it overcomes their survival instincts than people who will be upset, but ultimately collect themselves and carry on, even if it does mean attending a less expensive school or dropping down a rung on the social ladder. It's easier for me to sympathize with people who don't latch onto others and literally try to make life and death decisions for them.

Fair enough - but if that child has taken it upon themselves to care for an elderly parent, then that's still a responsibility that they're chosing to abandon. Brushing it off with "they can use social assistance" is incredibly dismissive, and ignores the fact that some people may be in countries where that's a very limited option, or where it doesn't provide nearly the same level of support.

I suppose you're right, blanket statements like these would apply to strangers in developing nations, but I don't think that's what most people have in mind when they call people selfish cowards or make comments about taking the easy way out. No, in my experience at least, they're usually referring to people within their own social circles who presumably benefit from the same privileges that give the Negative Nellies the option to comment about it from their pricey consumer electronics. In that case, they probably do have access to adequate support.

Tit for tat? I never said suicide happened in a vacuum, either, but that didn't stop you from making strawman arguments as if I had.

No, but you said "The most selfish thing someone could do is to demand that another person, whom they supposedly love, should languish in constant emotional pain so that they don't have to experience loss for a brief period of time. That's selfish." - the implication being that the only thing the family experiences is a brief period of emotional loss. And that's just not true.

I agree there's selfishness on both sides, but when both sides are selfish, no one really has a great claim to the moral high ground.

Fair enough, I suppose. Personally though, if a person chooses to have a child and then abdicates their responsiblity for that (minor) child, then I do feel comfortable saying that that person is being more selfish than the child that needs their support. I suppose it's technically true that young children are selfish by nature, but it's not like they can help that - it's a normal developmental stage, after all.

Since the suicide victim's the one who has to shoulder a greater share of the burden for their decision(live a life you don't want, or permanently erased yourself from existence), it's easier for me to sympathize with them. It's easier for me to sympathize with people who are so miserable that it overcomes their survival instincts than people who will be upset, but ultimately collect themselves and carry on, even if it does mean attending a less expensive school or dropping down a rung on the social ladder. It's easier for me to sympathize with people who don't latch onto others and literally try to make life and death decisions for them.

I get that, but I still think that by focusing on "they'll collect themselves and move on", it ignores the financial reality of raising children (I've seen accidental or health-related deaths where people thought the late parent was a little selfish because they didn't have their affairs, same with people who were killed because of dangerous hobbies) - not to mention the cases where the suicidal person is a single or custodial parent. And in terms of the family ultimately collecting themselves, it's not just about mourning, it's can include moving house, changing social standing, not to mention that that kind of loss can trigger mental illnesses in the remaining family members.

Overall I think we're probably on the same page - I think the people who rant about the selfishness actions of single adults or older teenagers are being unfair to those people. But when that person has responsibilities for other lives, then that becomes (at least to my mind) an entirely different situation - having dependants (whether because you chose to have children or chose to take custody of minor or disabled other relatives, or because you chose to take in a parent or grandparent) means literally that - other lives are dependent on yours, so it's no longer just about you and your experience and suffering. That might be harsh, but frankly life if harsh, y'know?

Friends/Family do not choose who we marry, what we like or don't like, what career path we take, whether we are straight or gay, etc. However much they may disagree with our choices, it is their responsibility to act like adults and acknowledge that our hopes/dreams/standards/decisions etc being different from theirs does not make them less valid. We have the right to direct our own lives, to choose what we think is best. This includes the right to end said lives if we choose to do so.

To those who say it is a terrible decision: so is obesity, smoking, and any number of other things. Do you rail against every fat person you see? Do you tell every smoker you meet that they have committed an unpardonable sin? Probably not.

To those who say it is the ultimate act of selfishness: is it not just as selfish to demand that a person live on in despair so black and all-encompassing he would choose death to escape it? "It would make me sad if you left." Well, it makes him sad to stay alive. If we're going to talk about compassion and understanding the feelings of others, let's include everyone.

To those who say it is nothing more than an escape: how much time did you spend watching TV, surfing the Web, and playing video games this week? With very few exceptions, time spent in such ways is time wasted escaping from lives that could be better if we spent that time productively. Don't get me wrong, I'm right here surfing along with you. And yes, I am aware we can't shut off suicide and go back to our lives like we can with TV. I just think it's hypocritical to label suicide an escape when we all have escapes.

I'm not advocating suicide. People who kill themselves have officially stated that they have nothing to offer the world and things are never going to get better, neither of which I think is true. Most situations are temporary. Everyone can do something good for the world. I'm simply advocating each person's right to make his own decisions.

Raikas:...the implication being that the only thing the family experiences is a brief period of emotional loss.

Oh, absolutely not. Although I'd hazard a guess that most children of suicide victims would tell you they miss their parents more than the slightly better schools they didn't get to attend or decrements to social standing, so it didn't strike me as the primary concern.

I get that, but I still think that by focusing on "they'll collect themselves and move on", it ignores the financial reality of raising children (I've seen accidental or health-related deaths where people thought the late parent was a little selfish because they didn't have their affairs, same with people who were killed because of dangerous hobbies) - not to mention the cases where the suicidal person is a single or custodial parent. And in terms of the family ultimately collecting themselves, it's not just about mourning, it's can include moving house, changing social standing, not to mention that that kind of loss can trigger mental illnesses in the remaining family members.

I guess it depends on what you believe their children should be entitled to, or what "raising" means. They need to be fed, clothed, educated and sheltered, all of which should be provided by the state in the parents' absence. Anything beyond that is gravy.

It's definitely a drain on society but, again, that's the whole point of society.

Overall I think we're probably on the same page - I think the people who rant about the selfishness actions of single adults or older teenagers are being unfair to those people. But when that person has responsibilities for other lives, then that becomes (at least to my mind) an entirely different situation - having dependants (whether because you chose to have children or chose to take custody of minor or disabled other relatives, or because you chose to take in a parent or grandparent) means literally that - other lives are dependent on yours, so it's no longer just about you and your experience and suffering. That might be harsh, but frankly life if harsh, y'know?

Yes, I do agree about minors and even pets. Parents and grandparents, or other dependants, I'm not sure about. Saying they made a choice to take in their elders implies there was some other option for them, in which case they could simply peruse that avenue. What makes that a lifetime contract anyway?

Oh, absolutely not. Although I'd hazard a guess that most children of suicide victims would tell you they miss their parents more than the slightly better schools they didn't get to attend or decrements to social standing, so it didn't strike me as the primary concern.

Oh, certainly. In the cases that I'm thinking about (although only one was a suicide) the people involved would definitely say that the biggest issue is missing the parent - but if you compare the older vs. younger kids, you can see that the older ones benefitted from having the higher standard of living (in terms of their own eventual careers, family lives, and mental health).

I guess it depends on what you believe their children should be entitled to, or what "raising" means. They need to be fed, clothed, educated and sheltered, all of which should be provided by the state in the parents' absence. Anything beyond that is gravy.

Sure, but I think it's fair to say that part of responsible parenting is providing your kids with the best possible environment. Sure, they'll survive with less, but wouldn't you want more for them, even if it came at a cost to yourself?

Parents and grandparents, or other dependants, I'm not sure about. Saying they made a choice to take in their elders implies there was some other option for them, in which case they could simply peruse that avenue.

Obviously this depends regionally, but in the countries I'm familiar with (FTR: Canada and Belgium) there are frequently long wait-lists for decent nursing homes and independent living centres (and "long" can mean years). If you take in a parent/grandparent/disabled sibling, you're bumping them off that list.

Are they ideal choices? No, of course not. But that's true of everyone's life. And again: I'm not judging people without dependants, I feel nothing but sympathy for them. But when you're looking at people who are in a situation that could have their kids sent to foster care or their grandparent to a low-care facility (which yeah, is an extreme, but it's a real one), then I think there's more than once person's suffering to think about.

It's a difficult subject. From what I've gathered, it's technically a selfish action, but a lot of people use this to act like dicks if they here about someone killing them self. You have to think about it from the point of view of the victim; just because a problem is temporary doesn't make it appear temporary while one is experiencing it. Everyone has their breaking point. I know that I've come damn close to it a few times.

Its a debatable subject. Part of me can understand why at that given time just before someone takes the plunge why it may seem like the only logical answer to that persons problems.

However, Speaking from personal experience, I know exactly how selfish it is too.

My Dad committed suicide 5 years ago. He left behind not only me, but 2 very young sons behind, friends and a mother who loved him. Now im not going to go into my whole life story, but his death may have been slightly easier on me than others in the family. I only knew my dad for a year before he took his life, I was 19 at the time of his death, but for his sons it has been worse they grew up with Dad who was very much a huge part of their life, as he spent every day with them. I missed out on 18 years of my life with my dad due to my parents having me young and breaking up, now im missing out on the rest of my adult life as my brother are to miss out on the rest of their childhood, teen years and adult years because of his selfish choice to leave those who needed him behind. Im not angry with him anymore for what he choose, and because i got to know him and had a year with him as father and daughter i will always love him, but i can't help but be angry at the fact he could just leave behind his sons. they have to grow up without a father... And due to other reasons it has left families torn apart. My fathers ex wife, has refused to let me have contact with my brothers, mainly because she blames me for my dads death, she blames the fact that me and my father got in touch after 18 years on part of his death, for whatever reason. so as much as i would love to have a relationship with brothers that i have also missed out on having a part in their life, i will have to wait ontill they are 18 for them to decide if they want to know their sister.My Dad as do others who go through things that drive them to the point of suicide needed help. He was at point were he could see no other way out of his problems, i only wish he could have went to someone to talk to them, even if it had have been myself. Unless you have dealt with something like this, then it is hard to judge or have an opinion on it. I can understand all views and opinions, I can understand the anger, the sadness, the regret, why it is selfish, because i've had all of those opinions. It is a mental illness and people who are going through any sort of depression need to seek help, to deal with their issues. There is always another way, suicide is not the answer. its the easy way out.

Indifferent. One side of me says people should be allowed to off themselves if they wish to but depending on their responsibilities determines their 'selfishness' or not. If you're caring for children (especially young ones) and you kill yourself you not only put extreme grief on them but on your partner.

If you have a shit job, are alone and you feel it's the only way out then by all means, do what you believe is best for you but don't ever try and harm someone before you go as some last act of petty revenge.

But even then I wish people wouldn't commit suicide. Suicide seems like heat of the moment thing more times than not and not a 'planned' thing. Why would you plan for death when it doesn't matter when you kill yourself, once it's done it's all over. Point being, I wish people would think over it more before committing the act, maybe seeing that life is worth it.

I've tried various times throughout my life, and undoubtedly will try again at some point. It's not something I'm proud of, I do not brag about it (the only reason I'm mentioning it is because it's the topic at hand and figured and insiders point of view might be interesting for others) nor do I wear My Chemical Romance t-shirts and call myself emo (or whatever the internet's stereotypes are) or try to glorify self harm in any way.I've, quite frankly, had a shit upbringing, been abused both mentally and physically by parents and was also raped when I was young. I drank bleach at about aged 12, and have tried to slit my wrists numerous times throughout my teenage years.I know there is a lot of beauty out within the world, but unfortunately at times for some people it is just unimaginable and unobtainable. My ordeals have left me suffering from manic depression that I do get on top off, but unfortunately also drags me down to despair again from time to time. I've also found a friend of mine with her wrists slit, and seeing that also makes you think about how selfish the act can actually be towards others. It is not something you ever forget.

Luckily I have found an amazing girlfriend who I have spent the past 9 years of my life with and who keeps me in check :]

Sucide is a matter of personal suffering. I think people only have a capacity for so much pain. It can be selfish but it's also their choice, to end it or continue on living. That said, there are so many other options. And killing yourself isn't as easy as it sounds. Tough folks put a gun in their mouth. Not so tough folks take pills. My uncle, blew off part of his face on the first attempt. He decided drink himself to death the second time.I also had a friend who hung himself. That's a hard way to go. Slitting your wrists is a bloody mess. Had a co-worker do that in the breakroom once with boxcutters. Fortunately, she got the help she needed after that.

Raikas:Oh, certainly. In the cases that I'm thinking about (although only one was a suicide) the people involved would definitely say that the biggest issue is missing the parent - but if you compare the older vs. younger kids, you can see that the older ones benefitted from having the higher standard of living (in terms of their own eventual careers, family lives, and mental health).

Lots of people benefit from lots of things. Doesn't mean they deserve them, much less that you have to provide them. This is still more selfishness on behalf of the survivors. And none of these are necessary.

Sure, but I think it's fair to say that part of responsible parenting is providing your kids with the best possible environment. Sure, they'll survive with less, but wouldn't you want more for them, even if it came at a cost to yourself?

No, not to the extent that it dictates the course of your entire life. There really is no point in living if everything you do--as would literally be the case for someone who wants to opt out--is for other people.

Are they ideal choices? No, of course not. But that's true of everyone's life. And again: I'm not judging people without dependants, I feel nothing but sympathy for them. But when you're looking at people who are in a situation that could have their kids sent to foster care or their grandparent to a low-care facility (which yeah, is an extreme, but it's a real one), then I think there's more than once person's suffering to think about.

There is, but I still say it's outweighed by that of the person who suffered to the point that they had to turn it off. Unless the kids and grandparents kill themselves too because, god forbid, they have to endure the same hardships as the commoners, their selfishness is greater than the selfishness of the person who kills themselves, as is the person looking at this from the outside and commenting because it all offends them so much.

There is, but I still say it's outweighed by that of the person who suffered to the point that they had to turn it off. Unless the kids and grandparents kill themselves too because, god forbid, they have to endure the same hardships as the commoners, their selfishness is greater than the selfishness of the person who kills themselves, as is the person looking at this from the outside and commenting because it all offends them so much.

Yeah, I think we're coming at this from two very different world views, because I honestly do believe that stsying connected to your loved ones is ideal.

My personal angle is this - the husband of one of my SIL's closest friends killed himself - he had three kids: 5,4, and 1. His wife was the one who found him. The two of them were full partners in everything - bills, childcare, all that. She couldn't afford their (not fancy, ftr) apartment on her own, so she and the kids moved back home with her parents (lucky for her, her family believes in interconnected families, or I don't know what would have happene to them). There's no "living with the commoners" snark needed there - that's hard shit for her and for those kids, and for the family that's helping them out. Yeah, I'm sure he was suffering before - but the rest of his family is suffering now, so you'll forgive me if my main sympathies lie with those kids and not with him.

Anyway, we're clearly not changing each other's minds on this one so, live and let live, right?

- Terminal illness(es) that's causing the sufferer pain every second- Crushing financial debt with no decent job offerings on the horizon- Being a financial burden to family, society, god or country- 5+ years of acquired mental illness(es) while showing no signs of recovery, short- or long-term

I only think suicide is okay if extreme conditions are met, most are medical reasons. If I'm a vegatable and being fed through a tube, I want my life to end because I am no longer living. Now in case of depression no, you can cure or at least help depression.

Necrosis1994:It's a subject I often find myself thinking about for one reason or another and I'm curious what my fellow Escapists think about it.

I know a lot of people find it to be one of the most selfish things a person can do and while I can see the argument that's being made I personally don't find that to be true in all cases..if any at all. Those who actually go through with it were obviously very troubled and more than likely weren't thinking ahead as to how it may affect those around them.

So what are your thoughts on suicide?

I tried it once, took a large amount of medication that, according to multiple sources were supposed to kill me. After that, I got really high for a few hours... and that's it. Does that make me a complete failure? Perhaps.Or maybe I'm immortal, I don't know.

Anyway, about the arguments against suicide:

1. It's selfish:You know what's selfish? When you want someone to keep going through living hell (which is what life comes down to, in the eyes of someone who wants to kill themselves) for the sake of keeping you happy.Also, if other people weren't there for me when I needed them then why should I be there for other people?Another thing - everything we do is selfish. Even the so called "selfless acts" like donating to charity or saving someone's life while risking our own are selfish since we do them because WE would be affected by it (physically, mentally or both) if we didn't and that's what really motivates us. Think about it for a moment and it will start to make sense.

2. They weren't thinking about the people around them:I'm pretty sure they were. People don't just commit suicide out of nowhere. They think about it a lot before doing it. They think about everything related to it.I waited years before I attempted it, simply because I didn't want to hurt my mom.

3. They're mentally ill:Sometimes yes, sometimes no.You don't have to be mentally ill to do it, nor do you have to have an incurable disease or large debts.Sometimes, you just don't want to live in this society. The rules, the structure, the things people do to each other just to get ahead, the fact that you can be honest and work hard only to be used and disrespected by everyone around you, the fact that a piece of paper is worth much more than a life, the fact that you'll never achieve anything in your life, that you'll be doing shitty "soul destroying" jobs until you'll get old and then you'll die and no one will care, how humans beings are slowly destroying everything on this planet, including themselves etc. All that can push you over the edge. Some people don't accept the reality that humanity has created for itself.What is more is that you can't escape this. It's everywhere. Death really is the only way to escape this and some people do just that.

This might be off topic but I believe that all of those people who go on to do mass shootings firstly consider suicide. They realize however that, while a suicide is disregarded by society, mass shootings aren't. People care about those and suicidal people want others to care about them (and once they're pushed far enough to do it, the distinction between positive and negative attention ceases to exist).I think that doing it is equal to showing a middle finger before leaving, instead of just going out quietly.This might not of course, be true for all mass shootings but I believe this is the explanation for at least some of them.

I've thought about death a lot and I've come to a conclusion that life goes by so fast (and the older you get, the faster it goes) that I'll be dead soon anyway, might as well try to entertain myself for a bit while waiting for the inevitable (unless the technology will advance so much that I'll be able to become a cyborg or something and not die at all, then I'll have to think about it some more :)

I personally feel that suicide is incredibly selfish, the only time I see it as a viable option is in cases of doctor assisted suicide, and then it's only cases in which a patient is terminal with no chance of recovery and is so miserable that they, in their right mind, agree to it. Taking the stance that suicide is selfish may seem sort of hypocritical because you want someone who is miserable with life to weather a difficult time, however you must also consider that if they take their life, the only real concerns they are taking into mind are their own. Weighed against the emotions of the many people that do care about a person, it seems a bit ridiculous that the stance of wanting someone to seek an alternative way out would be selfish.

It's interesting to hear from someone on the "receiving" end of the effects of suicide (aside from the obvious results, of course). I can't deny that taking your own life when people are depending, at least partially, on you is pretty short-sighted. It's important to keep in mind that people commit suicide for all sorts of reasons, not all of them mental illness related. For example,I'll probably die by suicide. I'm not even depressed, I just don't want to life past 40 or so, and I would prefer to be the master of my own fate.

I guess all I'm saying is that generalizations can be useful, but are by no means a proper gauge for intentions and motivations.

I don't know....it's painful for those who are left behind, who have to deal with the pain and guilt and constantly asking themselves if they shouldn't have noticed that something was wrong. I suppose people who kill themselves often don't realize that they aren't alone, that there are people who care about them and want to help. I'm kind of torn between a conservative christian background, which emphazises the sanctity of life and the value of bravely bearing your burdens. On the other hand, demanding that somebody else continue to live in severe emotional pain so you don't have to seems somewhat selfish.