And Taffy, speaking of popcorn.......you're gonna love this......I once in prayer saw the sons of God that are going thru the fire right now, popping up like literal popcorn, ie. Christ which is internal is coming out, and raising up.

Buttered with Garlic salt?

Sounds like purified condiments.....Funny how we all like it sugar coated egh....

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

(Is this the type of thing you are looking for, only with more detail?) The following is an excerpt from EONS AS INDEFINITE DURATION part 2 on the www.concordant.org site. Of some interest to are the last 2 paragraphs concerning the religious systems usurping the authority of Christ, the secular authority (Justinian) trying to get the upper hand, and the doctrinal formulations of the Institutional Church near the time it first used anathema which was in condemnation of Origen and certain of his views.--------------------------------------

TRANSCENDENTLY TRANSCENDENTEONIAN BURDEN OF GLORY

It is often claimed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18, "eonian" (aiõnion) must mean "eternal" because it is set in contrast to the word "temporal," meaning pertaining to time as opposed to eternity. The Greek word, however, translated "temporal" in the AV (proskaira) has no connection with the word for "time" (chronos); in English form, the Greek is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means "temporary" or "for [only] a part of a season."Contrastive terms need not be antithetical in meaning. Our Lord deemed it sufficient contrast to compare temporary (i.e., a part of a season) with a single season–less than a year (Matt.13:21). Yet here, in 2 Corinthians 4:18, while the contrast is far greater, it does not follow that it is therefore infinite. The contrast is between our afflictions, which last, so to say, but for a brief "partial season," and our promised, long-enduring "eonian" glory which lasts throughout the oncoming eons, until the consummation, when God is All in all. The eonian life and glory which is our special portion (cp 1 Tim.4:10b; 2 Tim.2:10,11), no more debars the endless life and glory in which we shall participate as well (cp Luke 1:33b; 1 Thess.4:17b; 1 Cor.15:28), than youthful happiness precludes the happiness of maturity. Hence, in considering the "eonian" punishment of Matthew 25:46, none who are wise will make the claim that since we will be immortal, therefore the eonian life of which this passage speaks is to be understood as "life eternal," and, in turn, the eonian punishment which this passage entails is to be judged to be "everlasting."

Even if it should be conceded that "eon" signifies "duration" and never signifies "everlasting," and even that it is always used, in itself, to refer to terminable periods, some might still claim that it, nonetheless, in certain instances concerned with judgment, is used to refer to an infinite series of eons (the terminable periods themselves) of which the interminable future will consist. This ingenious claim seems to be the argument of the ancient Eastern church. It is important to note that this is a disputation concerning interpretation between early Greek-speaking believers, not an argument among scholars as to essential word meaning or translation.

While some of the early Greek believers held to eventual universal reconciliation, they also believed in eonian punishment. Certainly, those Greeks who believed in universal reconciliation did not claim that aiõn or aiõnion meant everlasting or eternal. Indeed, in affirming the doctrine of endless punishment, even the Byzantine Emperor Justinian did not contend that such ones had misunderstood the meaning of eonian hitherto. Instead, he simply claimed orthodoxy's divine investiture for deciding truth in matters of interpretation (similar to the "papal infallibility" of Rome). His point was that since they (the so-called "holy church of Christ") taught the ateleutêtos (i.e., unconsummating [a non-scriptural word]) punishment of the wicked, therefore such a doctrine was true. Evidently, thus it was claimed that a never-consummating series of eons lay ahead for the lost during which their frightful torments would never cease. *4

"The Emperor Justinian (540 A.D.), in calling the celebrated local council which assembled in 544, addressed his edict to Mennos, Patriarch of Constantinople, and elaborately argued against the doctrines he had determined should be condemned. He does not say in defining the Catholic doctrine at that time, 'We believe in aiõnion punishment,' for that was just what the universalist, Origen himself taught. Nor does he say, 'The word aiõnion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration,' as he would have said had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek with all the words of that copious speech from which to choose, he says, 'The holy church of Christ teaches an endless [ateleutêtos] aiõnios life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutêtos) punishment to the wicked.' Aiõnios was not enough in his judgment to denote endless duration, and he employed ateleutêtos. This demonstrates that even as late as A.D. 540, aiõnios spoke of limited duration, and required an added word to [convey the thought] of endless duration." *5

He probably prefers other writings that display him to better advantage. Maybe he could post links to some examples. A greater exposure to the Tony N genre invites more respect. Our unity cherishes the supply of every joint (separation) and ligament (connection.)

Psalm 133 (AV)...1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren (those from the same womb) to dwell together in unity!2 It is like the precious ointment (anointing) upon the head (the ultimate High Priest Jesus), that ran down upon the beard (maturity), even Aaron's (meaning, "Enlightened") beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;3 As the dew of Hermon (meaning, "a sanctuary," this is the Mt of Transfiguration), and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion (Zion {"dry, signpost, monument"; site of David's "tottering tent" and Solomon's palace: ROYAL}, Moriah {"seen, inspected, chosen of Jah"; site where Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice and Solomon's Temple: PRIESTHOOD}, Ophel {"hill, stronghold, to lift up"--permanentized through resurrection}, the reigning priesthood is the Melchisedek Order by reason of undiminishable permanent life!): for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore (immortality).

Dewpoint is when the Spirit/Word that already is manifests, condensing on us and our world. God has a certain time and place where everything comes together.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 08:08:49 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

He probably prefers other writings that display him to better advantage. Maybe he could post links to some examples. A greater exposure to the Tony N genre invites more respect. Our unity cherishes the supply of every joint (separation) and ligament (connection.)

Psalm 133 (AV)...1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren (those from the same womb) to dwell together in unity!2 It is like the precious ointment (anointing) upon the head (the ultimate High Priest Jesus), that ran down upon the beard (maturity), even Aaron's (meaning, "Enlightened") beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;3 As the dew of Hermon (meaning, "a sanctuary," this is the Mt of Transfiguration), and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion (Ophel {"hill, stronghold, to lift up"}, Moriah {"seen, inspected, chosen of Jah"; site where Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice and Solomon's Temple}, Zion {"dry, signpost, monument"; site of David's "tottering tent" and Solomon's palace}): for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore (immortality).

Dewpoint is when the Spirit/Word that already is manifests, condensing on us and our world. God has a certain time and place where everything comes together.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

He probably prefers other writings that display him to better advantage. Maybe he could post links to some examples. A greater exposure to the Tony N genre invites more respect. Our unity cherishes the supply of every joint (separation) and ligament (connection.)

Psalm 133 (AV)...1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren (those from the same womb) to dwell together in unity!2 It is like the precious ointment (anointing) upon the head (the ultimate High Priest Jesus), that ran down upon the beard (maturity), even Aaron's (meaning, "Enlightened") beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;3 As the dew of Hermon (meaning, "a sanctuary," this is the Mt of Transfiguration), and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion (Ophel {"hill, stronghold, to lift up"}, Moriah {"seen, inspected, chosen of Jah"; site where Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice and Solomon's Temple}, Zion {"dry, signpost, monument"; site of David's "tottering tent" and Solomon's palace}): for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore (immortality).

Dewpoint is when the Spirit/Word that already is manifests, condensing on us and our world. God has a certain time and place where everything comes together.

I am a worm. A humbled worm at that.

Tony

Logged

Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

There has never been any doubt that Tony has a grasp on the literal understanding of things . .this is what makes him the great debater that he is. Every place has a purpose, every purpose has a place. There is a place and purpose for Tony in the kingdom, there is a purpose and place for me in the kingdom.

We're just in different places with different purposes. There is no condemnation here. We both have opinions and observations. We seldom agree with the other's positions and I think it's safe to say, niether of us "want" to have the other's position forced upon us either. Tony is effective in his arena, I'd like to think I have some affect on others in mine.

The trick is to be able to remain in one body . . .even though we are opposites, we can still be in the same body . . .so long as we don't try to kill each other in the process. . .

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

There has never been any doubt that Tony has a grasp on the literal understanding of things . .this is what makes him the great debater that he is. Every place has a purpose, every purpose has a place. There is a place and purpose for Tony in the kingdom, there is a purpose and place for me in the kingdom.

We're just in different places with different purposes. There is no condemnation here. We both have opinions and observations. We seldom agree with the other's positions and I think it's safe to say, niether of us "want" to have the other's position forced upon us either. Tony is effective in his arena, I'd like to think I have some affect on others in mine.

The trick is to be able to remain in one body . . .even though we are opposites, we can still be in the same body . . .so long as we don't try to kill each other in the process. . .

Nathan, I was blessed in reading what you wrote here:

Another dimension of that is that God sent forth his seed (son) and planted it into the earth, where it died, was buried in the earth in a cave. . .but then spiritually germinated and birthed into the world a life producing form that became productive bearing fruit containing the original seed of life, which others receive and die, and are buried . .and reborn into another form of life bearing fruit . . .the circle of life in the kingdom of heaven.

It's not that I don't see the spiritual side of the Scriptures, I do. I just don't see it in everything in the Scriptures.

In Revelation I don't believe literal critters (monsters) are going to literally come out of a literal ocean with literal horns etc. I don't believe Jesus is going to metamorphise into a literal lamb or that a literal sword is going to come flying out of His mouth (not that He couldn't do that but don't think that is what is really going to happen). It is just that, well, umm, I just believe there is figurative and literal to what is written and that not all is literal and not all is figurative. But I am learning.

Logged

Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

With that, by literal . . .I don't mean that monsters are coming out of the ocean . . .by literal in that sense, I mean those things already manifested "literally" in 70 AD. they were "figurative" events that "literally" happened. But there's no evidence that they're going to happen literally "again". Not in my view anyway.

With that, by literal . . .I don't mean that monsters are coming out of the ocean . . .by literal in that sense, I mean those things already manifested "literally" in 70 AD. they were "figurative" events that "literally" happened. But there's no evidence that they're going to happen literally "again". Not in my view anyway.

Again I wonder if we are using the term 'literal' correctly. No big deal I suppose, just for clarification.

Websters defines literal as....

according with the letter of the scriptures b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual <liberty in the literal sense is impossible — B. N. Cardozo> c: free from exaggeration or embellishment <the literal truth> d: characterized by a concern mainly with facts <a very literal man>

If one sees Scripture and Gods home turf as spiritual in the main then 'literal' is the spiritual isn't it?

If one sees the 'letter of Scripture' as spiritual then literal is the spiritual view.

If the spiritual is considered the factual while the physical is considered the shadow then the spiritual perspective is 'ordinary construction', thus literal.

If one sees the spiritual as the ordinary and the primary meaning of terms then it is the spiritual that is literal.

If the spiritual perspective is the view that is free from exaggeration and embellishment then wouldn't the spiritual be considered the literal truth?

I think that since the Word is as water, and water is literal, ie. we have literal water, then there is literal everything. But we also know that water is spiritual, ie. we have spiritual water, and there is the Word that was before there was anything literal.

So you can't divide up the literal water and say this part is not literal, when it's all literal. By the same token you can't divide up the spiritual water and say this part is not spiritual, when it's all spiritual.

But the goal, as Jesus showed when He walked ABOVE that which was literal, is to keep the literal as the foundation, but to keep our eyes on that which is spiritual or above. The problem arises in the mixing of the two, and as His Spirit is forever bringing us up into higher heights and deeper depths in Him, we are all in a state of looking at both, until He finishes the work in us. In Isaiah, the first 5 or 6 chapters are him looking at the earth with woe is me mentality, but the next chapter he sees Him high and lifted up. It is a progression, to become single eyed. Blessings....

« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 08:55:22 PM by Cardinal »

Logged

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Very well explained and I see and agree with you 100% on this. There is benefit to natural, moral and spiritual dimensions of the Word . . .each has a different percentage of benefit . .but all combined are what make up "truth" IN the Word. Because flesh profits nothing . and we're saved by grace not by works (morality) and we're to walk in the spirit and not after the flesh . . .this then points to which of the three carries the most clout.

But you can't take away the fact that there was a physical manifestation of what was given to John. I just don't beleive that it's physically yet to happen.

I think that since the Word is as water, and water is literal, ie. we have literal water, then there is literal everything. But we also know that water is spiritual, ie. we have spiritual water, and there is the Word that was before there was anything literal.

So you can't divide up the literal water and say this part is not literal, when it's all literal. By the same token you can't divide up the spiritual water and say this part is not spiritual, when it's all spiritual.

But the goal, as Jesus showed when we walked ABOVE that which was literal, is to keep the literal as the foundation, but to keep our eyes on that which is spiritual or above. The problem arises in the mixing of the two, and as His Spirit is forever bringing us up into higher heights and deeper depths in Him, we are all in a state of looking at both, until He finishes the work in us. In Isaiah, the first 5 or 6 chapters are him looking at the earth with woe is me mentality, but the next chapter he sees Him high and lifted up. It is a progression, to become single eyed. Blessings....

well, you did it again!

I will say, that when I decided I was going to learn about this Jesus who had pulled me out of a pit, literally, I decided I would make a leap of faith [Kierkegaard] and read the Bible as completely literal.

That is what blessed me, as the truth of the literal finally led me to the spiritual. I have no idea why it worked that way, but it did.

Thus, I would tell any new student of the Bible, read it as though it is completely literal and completely true.

With that, by literal . . .I don't mean that monsters are coming out of the ocean . . .by literal in that sense, I mean those things already manifested "literally" in 70 AD. they were "figurative" events that "literally" happened. But there's no evidence that they're going to happen literally "again". Not in my view anyway.

Again I wonder if we are using the term 'literal' correctly. No big deal I suppose, just for clarification.

Websters defines literal as....

according with the letter of the scriptures b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual <liberty in the literal sense is impossible — B. N. Cardozo> c: free from exaggeration or embellishment <the literal truth> d: characterized by a concern mainly with facts <a very literal man>

If one sees Scripture and Gods home turf as spiritual in the main then 'literal' is the spiritual isn't it?

If one sees the 'letter of Scripture' as spiritual then literal is the spiritual view.

If the spiritual is considered the factual while the physical is considered the shadow then the spiritual perspective is 'ordinary construction', thus literal.

If one sees the spiritual as the ordinary and the primary meaning of terms then it is the spiritual that is literal.

If the spiritual perspective is the view that is free from exaggeration and embellishment then wouldn't the spiritual be considered the literal truth?

What do you all mean or think when the word 'literal' is used?

cp

The Scriptures always contrast "soulish" with "spiritual". It is either soulish or it is spiritual?

Likewise, outside of Scripture, interpretational conventions are such that something written is either figurative or literal.

Jesus is a literal man.Jesus is figuratively a lamb.

"This cup is the blood of the new covenant."The cup is literal while the blood is figurative.The blood is not "spiritual" as opposed to "soulish."

I think people often confuse "figurative" with "spiritual." When they say this or that is "spiritual" they really mean it is figurative.

The first Adam was soulish.The last Adam was spiritual.

The first Adam literally was motivated by the soul.The last Adam literally was motivated by the spirit.

You wouldn't say "The last Adam spiritually was spiritual." At least I wouldn't. Would you?

Logged

Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

But the goal, as Jesus showed when we walked ABOVE that which was literal, is to keep the literal as the foundation, but to keep our eyes on that which is spiritual or above.

Keep the foundation as literal--because what choice do we have? Our foundation is literal, in a three dimensional flesh and blood world, therefore, he is literal. But keep our eyes on the spiritual--keep our eyes on Him. He is both.

25During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.

27But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."

28"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."

29"Come," he said.

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"

31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"