If you go with starter strips or, better yet, cut your top bars to have a bevel so you don't have to mess with starter strips, what does it cost you? A little work to cut the comb guides, which is less work than putting on foundation.

It saves you the cost of the foundation. Is there anyone out there who thinks that bees making comb is bad for them? If they do, then why aren't they all using PermaComb to protect their bees from this awful stress? If you let the bees build what they want, what does that cost you? I know Finksy thinks it costs you honey, but he's never see how quickly they build their own comb compared to foundation. But assuming it does cost some honey and assuming you're willing to give up a little honey, is there anyone who thinks that natural sized cells made by the bees are detrimental to the bees?

Now you put bees on this (if you want to do several packages you could do some side by side comparisons with some on plastic foundation etc., but keep in mind hives vary in buildup anyway so you'll need several to get a meaningful difference).

You monitor the mite drops on a tray under the Screened bottom board (again a side by side comparison with large cell would be nice). If the natural cell hive never needs any treatment or needs less treatment, good. Is there anyone who thinks it will have MORE mite problems? I don't think so.

How hard is it to try natural sized cells? If you want to do standard beekeeping practices then buy the small cell foundation. Dadant now has it wired and in both medium and deep. Obviously there must be a market since it used to only come in deep and unwired. You may have to call them I haven't found it on their online catalog.

What are the risks of doing this? I don't see any. What is the cost of doing this? If you go foundationless it will SAVE you money. If you buy small cell foundation it's not THAT expensive.

Now, over the years you put an empty frame in the brood nest whenever you see them start to backfill it to get ready to swarm and you give them the chance to regress more if they want AND stop them from swarming AND expand the brood nest to get more honey.

That's really all there is to the whole process. If you can find feral survivors, better. If you want to buy some Hygienic or SMR or Russians, go for it.

Why do some people think this is such a bad idea? Why does the concept make them angry? What deeply held beliefs does it threaten?

I don't mean to keep this stirring I am just trying to learn all of this. I was in a site that said the particular state had an estimated loss of 90% of feral hives( I assume that means wild hives ) due to vorroa mites. If bees naturally make the small cells and I am assuming they do that in the wild, why is varroa a problem in wild hives? Is there another factor? Why would small cell in the wild not keep things under control? Does this mean bees in the wild are nearly just about gone?

I am not sure what is meant by ferals in the wild. There are a lot of ferel bees around here but they don't live in the wild. Around here it is either a populated area or farming. I get my bees out of barns, pump houses, old houses, anything with walls that have an area where bees can get to. I have five or six lined up for removal hopefully starting this month.

Now to the question at hand. Did anyone really keep tabs on the wild bees before the threat of extinction fell upon them? Then how many colonies were wiped out from other reasons other than a mite? Like poisons, fires, rodents, wax moths, leaping lizards and cows that jump over the moon?

Get all that out of the way. Then you have the "domestic" bees that got away. As M. Bush points out, it takes a while to regress down. So those that were not fully regressed were easy targets. SO, those died off as well as all the domestics that stayed home on large cell. Then here come the ferels. they go into the hives to rob out the honey and get infested with all the mites that need a new home. They were over whelmed with the mites from the domestic colonies.

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:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

Finsky, not all Americans, or, any other beekeepers for that matter, will be spoiled by any particular beekeeping method.,

Beekeepers will learn and adjust to ALL ideas about beekeeping according to THEIR results. Some will learn how to keep bees and some will just give up after they see how much trouble they will have to go through just to keep a few hives.

Personally I am not convinced that small cell is the answer to verroa control. It may well be the answer, but so far, it is not practical for the majority of hobbist, and commercial beekeepers to start converting to small cell.

Consider that proponents of the small cell theory number just a few people who post comments on these boards. There are numerous beekeepers, hoobyist and commercial, who do not ever read internet forums and have probably no idea about small cell? They just go with tried and true beekeeping methods that have evolved over the years and years of beekeeping practices. Consider the small cell ideas as an experiment that may prove to be valid and maybe not. Some will be convinced and some not.

This question is for Finsky, I am trying to understand both sides of this and MB has given the reasons he feels the way he does about small cell. My question- in your opinion other than producing less honey is there any reason not to go with small cell and are there any problems you know of that are a result of small cell?

The reason they say that it's not for beginners is because they don't want to put the instructions up there for regressing the bees. If you want to do small cell foundation, then get yourself a package of small cell bees to go with it.

This is an example of the blind leading the blind. Ask Housel in florida, he bought "small bees" from the small cell guru and the florida authorities pointed out that they were african bees (the original small bees). They "depopulated" the hives. The whole small cell thing is a fantasy. there is no such thing as regression, since the european bees were never that small and the african bees have always been that size. 4,9 foundation is perfect for them, that's what the sell IN AFRICA

My question- in your opinion other than producing less honey is there any reason not to go with small cell and are there any problems you know of that are a result of small cell?

If you look the invasion of varroa, you will find that it has not killed all bees. There are hives which can manage with varroa.

Now among Carnolian bees they have found as good varroa fighters like Russian bee. And Carnolian bee has biggest natural cells, wider than in bad foundations.

PROBLEMS:

1) You need a bee stock which have natural tendency fight against varroa- have you, where you got it?

2) The mite level is often so high that colony is alive but cannot gather surpus honey (chalbrood makes same).

3) Before beekeeper has found varroa resistant beestock mostly he has lost all his hives.

4) Small cell question have known 10 years in USA. Why it has not revealed mite problem, or foul brood, nosema, or what else.

5) Swarming is one succesful method with which feral bees get rid off their problems. Swarming is not suitable for profitable honey harvesting.

6) Michael and another natural beekeepers insist same argumenst and deny many fact which have known tens of years.

* They say that natural comb size. Small cell is not natural comb size. * Bees do not need honey for comb building. * Natural comb sizes has not saved bees from diseases or from varroa.* Diseases have developed in natural beehives during million of years. They are not products of human.

* Natural beekeepers never talk that varroa also go through succesfull evolution and takes it's place more and more in beehives. ..You know those people who still believe that God made all nature during 6 days. There is no genes, no evolution not science and no facts.

Natural beekeeprs think that they are like Gods and relieve some day A BIG MYSTERY like mr. Nobel.

And why these nobelists are mostly beginners? - Who knows little he knows everything.

>4) Small cell question have known 10 years in USA. Why it has not revealed mite problem, or foul brood, nosema, or what else.

Small cell has been used by Dee Lusby for 18 years with no treatments. 10 about 8 years short. Why has it not caught on? Not very many people have been doing it. It IS catching on. Dadant is now offering, not just 4.9mm unwired deeps, but 4.9mm wired deeps and 4.9mm wired mediums. Obviously it IS catching on. But anything nees to reach enough critical mass than others can see it working.

>* They say that natural comb size. Small cell is not natural comb size.

My bees are building their own combs. They are small cells. When I started the bees were Italians, Carniolans, Russians and Buckfasts. They all drew small cells (4.6mm to 5.1mm mostly). How can they not be natural comb size? If you use 4.9mm foundation, it's not natural comb size but it's as close as you'll get with foundation.

>* Bees do not need honey for comb building.

I have never said that.

>* Natural comb sizes has not saved bees from diseases or from varroa.

But it HAS and it IS. There are many small cell beekeepers. They are using now chemicals and have kept healthy bees from the time they got them regressed. There are hudreds that I know and many more that I don't know, I'm sure.

>* Diseases have developed in natural beehives during million of years. They are not products of human.

The problems with those diseases are rather recent.

>* Natural beekeepers never talk that varroa also go through succesfull evolution and takes it's place more and more in beehives.

Since I know of no case of eveolution being observed in anything, I think it's a moot point. BUT a "successful" parasite doesn't kill it's host.

>You know those people who still believe that God made all nature during 6 days. There is no genes, no evolution not science and no facts.

Yes, you can lump me into that if you like. I believe God created all nature. I don't care if it was in 6 days. But I've been a "scientist" all my life. I've never believed anything just because someone says it. I want to see how it works and confirm that it works. I've solved problems all my adult life. I write computer programs. I have to set up experiments on a daily basis to resolve computer problems to eliminate what something could be or what it's not. If there is a flaw in my logic there is no mistaking it because it won't work if there is. I've also been experimenting with bees for the last 32 years.

>Natural beekeeprs think that they are like Gods and relieve some day A BIG MYSTERY like mr. Nobel.

I think no one will listen to anyone who doesn't have a PHD in entomology. I think the odds of a Nobel prize for a beekeeper are nonexistant. I certainly have no such expectations.

Dee Lusby has been keeping bees all her life. She's in her 50's now. I've been keeping bees since 1974. BWrangler has been a commercial beekeper most of his adult life and I think he's in his 50's also. I don't think we are beginners.

Finsky, I think you are a very talented, experiencd, generous and wise beekeeper. I appreciate your advice and experience. Especially in a cold climate, since I also live in a cold climate, even if not as cold as yours. I have great respect for what you know. The things you have experienced and observed are very useful to all of us. But what experience do you have with natural drawn comb? What experience to you have with small cell or natural cell and Varroa? How many hives of natural cell have you kept without treatments at all? For how many years? I held many of the same views you have about comb drawing and cell size up until I tried it for myself.

> Small cell has been used by Dee Lusby for 18 years with no treatments. 10 about 8 years short. Why has it not caught on? Not very many people have been doing it. It IS catching on. Dadant is now offering, not just 4.9mm unwired deeps, but 4.9mm wired deeps and 4.9mm wired mediums. <

Just because Dadant is selling it, doesn't mean it works. Come on, they just want to make money. Any thing you'll buy they'll sell. Look, I know the whole history of this thing. Erikson talked about it back in the early 1990s. He said at the time that it looked promising, but the future was in bee breeding. What have the Lusby's done? They admit they have been selecting from survivors, so their whole result could be from selection and not from small cells at all. They also live in the southernmost part of arizona where they don't really have winter. A hive with a low grade varroa infestation can't make it through a real winter, where it might in a tropical area. their whole approach is to deny anything that anyone says that goes against them. They think they have collected native bees form the rocks in the wilderness, bees that were here before the spanish settled america. There weren't any bees here then! Everyone who has read one book on bees knows that. They deny they have african bees despite the dozens of reports that african bees have saturated the whole area. If anyone is contemplating buying bees from arizona, better think twice. Those bees ID positive for african. the bee people in florida have intercepted and killed them. do you want to be the first in your state to have africans? do you want the papers to run a story sayin gyou deliberately imported african bees?

> Small cell has been used by Dee Lusby for 18 years with no treatments.

>10 about 8 years short.

18 years ago they went to 5.0mm cell size. 10 years ago they went to 4.9mm cell size. For 18 years they have been surviving Varroa with no treatments and smaller cells.

>Just because Dadant is selling it, doesn't mean it works.

Of course it doesn't prove it works. But the issue brought up is why doesn't it catch on if it works. The point this proves is that it is catching on.

>What have the Lusby's done? They admit they have been selecting from survivors, so their whole result could be from selection and not from small cells at all.

They've always been raising survivors but when the Varroa hit they lost most of them because they wouldn't treat. Certainly breeding is helpful. But so is a 19 day brood cycle.

> They also live in the southernmost part of arizona where they don't really have winter.

I don't. I know small cell beekeepers in Alaska, Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan. Name a cold state there are probably small cell beekeepers there.

>A hive with a low grade varroa infestation can't make it through a real winter, where it might in a tropical area.

While it is warmer there, a lot of their hives are up quite high.

> their whole approach is to deny anything that anyone says that goes against them.

Dee is a very firm believer in the concept that any chemicals will backfire. She is a bit "religious in her ferver. That doesn't mean she's wrong.

> They think they have collected native bees form the rocks in the wilderness, bees that were here before the spanish settled america. There weren't any bees here then!

Dee suspects they have been here longer than currently thought. She suspects they were brought here, but sooner than thought. A lot of this is because the DNA tests she gets done can't seem to be pinned down and usually come back as some variant of Caucasian, but not quite. Since I wasn't here when the bees got here, I certainly don't know when they got here.

> Everyone who has read one book on bees knows that.

Just because its in a book doesn't make it true. Much speculation that was taught as truth has been overturned over the years as the evidence finally accumulates enough to question what was accepted.

> They deny they have african bees despite the dozens of reports that african bees have saturated the whole area.

>Those bees ID positive for african. the bee people in florida have intercepted and killed them. do you want to be the first in your state to have africans?

I'm still trying to understand what you are saying here. What are "those bees"? Where did "those bees" come from that were IDed as African and what method of identification was used to ID them as African?

Florida has Africans from Africa now. Pure scuts that apparently hitched a ride on a ship. I'm not aware of any other source of AHB in Florida other than the pollinators who keep going to California who might bring back some AHB.

Could you please fill in the blanks, because I have no antecedent for the pronoun "those" as in "those bees".

I also donâ€™t understand what African bees have to do with natural cell size. Perhaps you can enlighten me. I see no connection.

MICHAEL:I'm still trying to understand what you are saying here. What are "those bees"? Where did "those bees" come from that were IDed as African and what method of identification was used to ID them as African?

ME: Read it again. arizona. small cell bees from arizona were shipped to florida and california. they test positive for african, according to florida authorities. they are killing them

MICHAEL:I'm not aware of any other source of AHB in Florida

ME: now you are.

MICHAEL:I also donâ€™t understand what African bees have to do with natural cell size. Perhaps you can enlighten me. I see no connection.

ME:the cell size of european and african bees are different. wings too. these were used to identify these types as the africans invaded south and central america. (Spivak) the african bees build the smaller cells, so a natural swarm can be identified by measuring cells size. smaller than 5, probably african. larger than 5mm, probably euro. there are hybrids, at least at first. feral colonies in texas, arizona, calif, and now florida are assumed to be african. now they generally use wing length, africans have shorter length wings. if the wings are longer than 9 mm no need to test further. deliberately raising small bees obscures the inherent difference. I am not making this up.

>the cell size of european and african bees are different. wings too. these were used to identify these types as the africans invaded south and central america. (Spivak) the african bees build the smaller cells, so a natural swarm can be identified by measuring cells size. smaller than 5, probably african.

But, since the only reason the Europeans are larger is the foundation, that seems like a very inaccurate way to determine their origin. I've seen plenty of less than 5.0 from commercial EHB queens of Italian, Russian, Buckfast and Carniolan.

>deliberately raising small bees obscures the inherent difference. I am not making this up.

I'm deliberately letting the bees be whatever size God intended. I don't consider that deliberately obscuring the differences and the differences are not "inherent" if the bees are building that size cells. It seems to me that they are deliberately picking a test that will result in any EHB on small cell being determined to be African.

I still see no connection between natural cell size and people supposedly raising AHB other than the obfuscation created by the people who made up the FABIS test. It remains to be seen if that is intentional or accidental but the results are not going to be good for people who just want to raise bees in a natural system.

ME:ME: Read it again. arizona. small cell bees from arizona were shipped to florida and california. they test positive for african, according to florida authorities. they are killing them

WHERE DID YOU HERE THIS INFO?????, THE WORD over here is that they come from the ships about 10 years ago, in arizona when the first hive was found in florida, the bee inspectors in arizona that wouldn't let people ship bee out of state with out test, where did you hear this? beside there are no shipping dock in arizona. want to buy some ocean front property in arizona?

Quote from: derbeemeister

ME:the cell size of european and african bees are different. wings too. these were used to identify these types as the africans invaded south and central america. (Spivak) the african bees build the smaller cells, so a natural swarm can be identified by measuring cells size. smaller than 5, probably african. larger than 5mm, probably euro. there are hybrids, at least at first. feral colonies in texas, arizona, calif, and now florida are assumed to be african. now they generally use wing length, africans have shorter length wings. if the wings are longer than 9 mm no need to test further. deliberately raising small bees obscures the inherent difference. I am not making this up.

der bee meister

im not on small cell, but I'm am on pierco frames and they measure 5.2mm in cell size, I'll tell you now that my bee's are smaller when young than regular frames, and my bee's are not african, there kona and removals,,,,you cant tell me that a bee that is not african is the only bee that can be raised on smaller cells, and for the florida bee's, they have said them bee's come from the docks, you have to do more research man, so you saying if MB can raise bee's on cells smaller than 4.9 then his bee's are africa? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,,,,,, i HAVE SEEN PLENTY ON SMALL CELL AND THEY ARE NOT AFRICAN AND SOME WAS ON NATURAL DRAWN COMB ( notice I didn't say natural size comb), SO I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY,,,,,,, YOU NEED TO DO MORE SEEING THAN HEARING BEFORE CONDEMING OTHERS, and I have seen it, now weather small cell is the answer, I have never thought that small cell was the answer but I do believe it will be the resistance bee's them selves, but small cell might also help, im going to try 2 hives and see for myself if its a waist of time or not. I'll tell in this forum when its complete...PIECE OUT and FLOWER POWER TO YOU CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new. Amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic