First answer wtf Title IX has to do with this conversation in the first place.

I thought the point was pretty simple. Most colleges can sustain a dozen or more sports without huge football profits. There's no reason the Agricultural College of Pennsylvania can't. Just because they're accustomed to JoPa's money making skills, I think the folks at PSU can figure it out.

Fuck even Tri-C can maintain eight sports without a Top 25 football program to pay the bills...

Spin wrote:I know full well how D1 sports are paid for. In almost all cases, the football programs lose money. So how (in all but maybe a dozen programs) does a money losing football program cover the cost of the football program, let alone all the other god damn sports? Same with the D3 schools, they figure out how to pay for a bunch sports without millions of dollars in football revenue. Penn State can figure it out too.

And football is more expensive, you're paying out 85 scholarships, books, housing, each player requires a lot more equipment, higher premiums. More coaches. More staff. Then you have to transport all those people.

Spin wrote:I know full well how D1 sports are paid for. In almost all cases, the football programs lose money. So how (in all but maybe a dozen programs) does a money losing football program cover the cost of the football program, let alone all the other god damn sports? Same with the D3 schools, they figure out how to pay for a bunch sports without millions of dollars in football revenue. Penn State can figure it out too.

And football is more expensive, you're paying out 85 scholarships, books, housing, each player requires a lot more equipment, higher premiums. More coaches. More staff. Then you have to transport all those people.

Dude, just stop - you position cannot be defended. The more you type the more I know you're just making shit up.

Wow, that's a lot different from JB's article he cited last year...

You guys still don't get it. It doesn't matter how much money PSU football brought in. I don't know how to explain it any simpler. Maybe I'll put in in question form.

If the University of Akron (which lost money and a whole lot more on its football program the last three years) can sustain 18 scholarship sports in Division I without PSU attendance and TV, without the B10 cash, without bowl money, without the supporters, without anything else,

Spin wrote:I know full well how D1 sports are paid for. In almost all cases, the football programs lose money. So how (in all but maybe a dozen programs) does a money losing football program cover the cost of the football program, let alone all the other god damn sports? Same with the D3 schools, they figure out how to pay for a bunch sports without millions of dollars in football revenue. Penn State can figure it out too.

And football is more expensive, you're paying out 85 scholarships, books, housing, each player requires a lot more equipment, higher premiums. More coaches. More staff. Then you have to transport all those people.

Dude, just stop - you position cannot be defended. The more you type the more I know you're just making shit up.

Wow, that's a lot different from JB's article he cited last year...

Let me ask this question.

If the University of Akron (which lost money and a whole lot more on its football program the last three years) can sustain 18 scholarship Title IX DI sports without PSU attendance and TV, without the B10 cash, without bowl money, without the supporters, without anything else PSU has,

The way they "figure out" how to pay for it all is by using money from the general fund and charging other students who don't even participate (or maybe even care about) athletics large fees that inflate their college costs and their future student loan payments.

In an article I did this winter, I incorporated some good research done on Ohio schools and their athletics programs by the Plain Dealer. Turns out MAC schools are some of the most heavily subsidized programs in the country. Here's an excerpt (minus links) of the section that deals with this issue:

The vast majority of the athletic departments at the 120 FBS schools are not able to pay for themselves, even with these newer outside revenues supplementing traditional sources like game ticket sales. An NCAA report demonstrates that in the 2009-10 year, all but 22 of them operated in the red, with the average shortfall in the neighborhood of $10 million annually. The previous year just 14 of 120 schools kept their heads above water. In most cases that deficit has to be picked up out of university funds...from general revenues and fees charged to non-athlete students, while scholarship athletes ride free.

To put it mildly, this is not going down well with faculty and staff who are being asked to pinch pennies in the chemistry lab while the football coach takes a private jet to woo a 17-year old tailback five states away. I’ll try to demonstrate below with some facts and some numbers what all of us can sense in one way or another, even as we love us our March Madness and our fall football season...

The system is broken.

OSU is the Exception to the Rule

We’ll stipulate at the outset that athletics can add to the prestige and the aura of a school, and to a degree, can enhance the college experience of (some, but not all) students. It can help attract students to a school even if they do not participate in intercollegiate sports. These benefits are in most cases intangibles though, and are difficult to measure at all, let alone translate to dollar figures.

Rich Exner at the Plain Dealer has done some solid reporting on the finances of athletics at Ohio’s universities, and while his figures are based on data from the 2009-10 school year, little has changed since in terms of the percentages. Ohio State, with its $123 million athletic budget is one of the few schools nationwide to support itself without subsidies from the university or the government. Their Ohio neighbor schools though, are regularly tapping into general funds and student fees to support their revenue-poor programs.

Ohio University is among the most heavily subsidized schools in the nation, with $18.7 million of their $22.7 million athletic budget coming either from student fees ($16.4 mil) or other state or government funding ($2.3 mil). And there is pushback from other quarters within the university, as reported at Inside Higher Ed.

This nationwide problem is at its worst right close to home here in the Midwest. In fact, according to Inside Higher Ed, 10 of the top 21 most heavily subsidized schools are members of the MAC athletic conference. Even with athletic budgets 20% the size of the behemoth in Columbus, these schools need to get between 49% (Toledo) and 82% (Ohio U.) of their revenues from non-athletic department sources. Kent State (80%), Akron (70%), and Bowling Green (65%) are among the most subsidized departments in the country.

Not everyone has a 105,000-seat stadium like Ohio State’s, and not everyone has the rabid following that allows them to charge extra premiums for the privilege of buying season tickets like the Buckeyes can. But the University of Akron is sitting there with a beautiful new facility, and they still can’t draw flies.

Among BCS conference schools, Rutgers, at a 42% subsidy level, is among the least self-sustaining athletic programs, and its non-athletic faculty and staff want to know why athletic spending continues to rise anyway. A Bloomberg study revealed that the top 120 athletic programs in the country are averaging a 26% subsidy level. You’d think that sooner or later those unmeasurable and intangible benefits to the university are going to run right up against some cold economic reality. It’s starting to happen at Rutgers and Ohio U., and I’m sure at other schools too.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Thank you. Finally someone who can have a discussion about a topic without the trash talking and shit throwing.

I understand full well how students pay for the sports. I spent two years at Wayne College (UAk's Orrville campus) and then went tomain campus for the next three years, and my tuition almost doubled.

One primary reason, FEES. And they're not just for sports teams. I paid for exercise facilities and indoor swimming pools and the Student Union and dozens of other things that a non-traditional forty-something student does not ever use.

And they're not really there for the students, either, they are to show off during tours. "And this is our 200,000,000 square foot fitness facility with the latest equipment and climbing wall. You can come here any time. This is our Student Union, with cinema, bowling alley, billiards, and food stands, convenience store, and book store that will rape you blind every time you buy something."

So, when you go to a residential school, you are paying fees. I didn't mind the fees that let me park for free, and get in any sporting event free. If only you could just pay the fees for the shit you actually use.

At this point, the hammer is going to have to be dropped from outside of Happy Valley.

I cannot believe that they are even debating it and that is exactly what is wrong here. Do they really think that you can really separate the good from the bad during Paterno's time? That is fucking ridiculous.

There is nothing left of the good Paterno did.

I have never been an advocate of the death penalty for PSU, reading these comments from the PSU BOT just proves to me that the institution is not capable of taking care of this themselves. So maybe the NCAA does need to nuke them.... I don't know. Scary to me that anyone associated with this school wants anything but to put this behind them. Well at least they remodeled the PSU showers, that was an imporant step.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

furls wrote:All the stuff from your post is exactly why something must be done and it should be the university. Football is the GLUE of the community. It is everything. It is the power in that hamlet, on that campus and in the institution. It is not unlike Columbus with one significant difference, Columbus is a city; Happy Valley is not. There isn't anything going on there except football.

When you read the quoted stuff above it feels clear that people don't get it. The school needs to de-emphasize the football program (this coming from a guy that where Buckeye gear everywhere) or subject itself to the same corruption within the institution. PSU should gracefully bow out of NCAAF this year "to get their priorities straight" and the NCAA should let them, allow their players to transfer if they so desire (without penalty). The NCAA should then stay out and let this thing die. I don't know if anyone will be able to root for that school this year.

Going, going, gone!

What was written as a defense is actually rationale. PSU has no God Given right to be the institution it is if the gains were ill gotten. All the more reason to level-set it. The very reason the institution prosituted every value remotely connected to a higher education is the very reason that this piece was non-sense.

In essence, don't punish football or Penn State may be a lessor institution?

Plesae.

That University of Chicago place really screwed the pooch decades ago, didn't they?

Penn States atletic department can operate in the red and charge student fees just like the MAC qand be just fine.

jb wrote:Penn States atletic department can operate in the red and charge student fees just like the MAC and be just fine.

Or maybe just dip into that $2 billion endowment fund (or whatever it is...that's the number I'm hearing thrown around)

On another matter...All the above talk about football programs making a "profit" has to be viewed in light of the fact that it then has to support all the other non-revenue sports. Hardly anyone is making money by the time women's rowing is paid for. Out of OSU's 125 million budget, they almost always finish the year within a million bucks up or down (less than 1%)...which (if up) is donated to the university, stashed in a building fund, or spent on debt service for loans for facilities.

I'd guess that Penn State's board will make a grand gesture...and soon...to self-impose some significant penalties. It wouldn't surprise me to see them suspend the 2012 season, multi-year bowl ban, etc. I think the board has acted fairly responsibly so far...by immediately firing all the principals...getting a thorough investigation done in a timely way, etc. I hope they'll follow through with swift and painful sanctions on football. (The decision to leave the Paterno statue up "for now" is not a good sign, however.)

Best line this week was a tweet by (I think) Albert Brooks..."Penn State has decided to leave the Paterno statue up...they've just decided to have him look the other way"

Got your Twitter account yet, jb?

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

jb wrote:Penn States atletic department can operate in the red and charge student fees just like the MAC and be just fine.

On another matter...All the above talk about football programs making a "profit" has to be viewed in light of the fact that it then has to support all the other non-revenue sports. Hardly anyone is making money by the time women's rowing is paid for. Out of OSU's 125 million budget, they almost always finish the year within a million bucks up or down (less than 1%)...which (if up) is donated to the university, stashed in a building fund, or spent on debt service for loans for facilities.

Indeed. Which was my original rebuttal to the curious logic of "go ahead and give PSU the death penalty because no one makes a profit on football". I mean if you want to apply a scorched earth approach in Happy Valley then fine, but let's not act as if that will not have a tremendous impact on all of the other varsity sports. In many many places it is football and hoops which are the vehicles to ensure that universities can be in compliance with Title IX.

As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

You people seem silly. What would ending Penn State football accomplish? So the SMU death penalty really cleaned up D1 football didn't it?? Yes, that's what you're saying? So 20 some years after the SMU death penalty it is a far cleaner institution D1 football. What would a multiple year disbanding of the program accomplish?? It would hurt a buch of kids needlessly is all it would do. As opposed to the catholic church those responsible were punished eventually. IT did take way too long and heinous activity by those in charge were widespread at PSU. I would be in favor of ending all D1 college football for 5 years which is what needs to be done. Ending 1 program will do nothing whatsoever. It will simply hurt a ton of kids....many of them legitimate students. Many of them not of course too, but PSU has generally done ok with graduation rates comparitively. And of course those books were likely cooked by JoPa the more you read about the guy.

This is our world. I feel sad that heinous behavior like this surprises me not at all. INternational bankers destroyed the world economy. From what I can tell none in America went to prison for violent aggressive crimes against the public. But they regulate things and set the laws so why would they go to prison?. OUr nation has been involved in genocides, mass murder, enslavement, aggressive invasions from day 1 and we all just yell USA, USA!! We're a hideous, evil nation from day 1 and we all think it's great (oh but we stopped the nazis so it's all good!). To see all this moralizing on Penn State is pretty self righteous. View the Gary Benz article today. "Great" and important people can do and get away with anything. NIxon didn't go to prison, GWB didn't go to prison. Obama won't go to prison (now legal for an American president to murder American citizens without any due process whatsoever). Laws do not apply to them. Joe Paterno was one of these alpha males that are above the law. We see it all the time. We live in a country where people think a guy who takes home 10.5 million needs to pay way less taxes and the guy who takes home 19 thousand needs to pay more taxes. "shared sacrifice" bitches!

But the solution to the Penn State situation is to punish a bunch of 18 to 23 year old kids, some who have been there 4 years. Every single D 1 football program is a cesspool but they nonetheless produce some good people as our cesspool of a country does all the time. The D1 programs are simply a microcosm of our nation. That's all it is. It's not like Penn State didn't have a model to follow on this, I'm not defending it at all, but who went to prison?? The pope, the cardinals,the bishops?? HEll no they didn't. Simply more "great" important alpha males. Ending the Penn State football program is treating a gun shot wound with a bandaid and poisoned aspirin.

And the fact of the matter is that nearly all of us put in similar situations as what went on at Penn State would have done the exact same thing. And we all know it. It's fun to be a keyboard hero though.

As for Gary's column, he's missing one very important thing: Out of touch alumni and boosters of the First Church of Saint Joe holding the spineless trustees balls to the fire. I can't imagine the BoT visibly wanting to keep that powderkeg at Beaver Stadium, but they're going to 'need' that endowment gravy train for all the incoming lawsuit settlements. Or so they'll say.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

You guys are missing the whole point.

Without football, they would need to find other ways to fund the other athletic programs. Certainly not easy, for a school that has been spoiled by all the football cash and JoPa's fund raising rolling in by the trainload.

But it's certainly not impossible to maintain those sports. And it doesn't cost much more to equip a women's softball player at PSU than it does Akron. Or pay their full ride. Bus travel costs to conference opponents aside.

jb wrote:Penn States atletic department can operate in the red and charge student fees just like the MAC and be just fine.

Or maybe just dip into that $2 billion endowment fund (or whatever it is...that's the number I'm hearing thrown around)

Beat me to that Wiz. You are spot on. But even throwing out the gazillion dollar endowment....

Again, 98% of universities operate robust women's athletic departments in complience with Title IX just fine without a 102,000 capacity stadium. Rough SWAG some 75% of D1 FCS & BCS AD's with FB do as well with women receiving scholarships. Do they operate in the blcak? hell no.

Guess what Penn State? Too damn bad.

I do fell sorry for a few fencers and men's synchronized swimmers but given the nature of what is at hand, collateral damage.

Last edited by jb on Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

Why?

Again, why does Penn State have some God gien right to not be Akron given what it did to protect the cash cow?

A: It lost that priviledge.

And Spi, screw ur spelling smack. And I feel dirty for agreeing with you.

scrambler wrote:You people seem silly. What would ending Penn State football accomplish? So the SMU death penalty really cleaned up D1 football didn't it?? Yes, that's what you're saying? So 20 some years after the SMU death penalty it is a far cleaner institution D1 football. What would a multiple year disbanding of the program accomplish?? It would hurt a buch of kids needlessly is all it would do. As opposed to the catholic church those responsible were punished eventually. IT did take way too long and heinous activity by those in charge were widespread at PSU. I would be in favor of ending all D1 college football for 5 years which is what needs to be done. Ending 1 program will do nothing whatsoever. It will simply hurt a ton of kids....many of them legitimate students. Many of them not of course too, but PSU has generally done ok with graduation rates comparitively. And of course those books were likely cooked by JoPa the more you read about the guy.

This is our world. I feel sad that heinous behavior like this surprises me not at all. INternational bankers destroyed the world economy. From what I can tell none in America went to prison for violent aggressive crimes against the public. But they regulate things and set the laws so why would they go to prison?. OUr nation has been involved in genocides, mass murder, enslavement, aggressive invasions from day 1 and we all just yell USA, USA!! We're a hideous, evil nation from day 1 and we all think it's great (oh but we stopped the nazis so it's all good!). To see all this moralizing on Penn State is pretty self righteous. View the Gary Benz article today. "Great" and important people can do and get away with anything. NIxon didn't go to prison, GWB didn't go to prison. Obama won't go to prison (now legal for an American president to murder American citizens without any due process whatsoever). Laws do not apply to them. Joe Paterno was one of these alpha males that are above the law. We see it all the time. We live in a country where people think a guy who takes home 10.5 million needs to pay way less taxes and the guy who takes home 19 thousand needs to pay more taxes. "shared sacrifice" bitches!

But the solution to the Penn State situation is to punish a bunch of 18 to 23 year old kids, some who have been there 4 years. Every single D 1 football program is a cesspool but they nonetheless produce some good people as our cesspool of a country does all the time. The D1 programs are simply a microcosm of our nation. That's all it is. It's not like Penn State didn't have a model to follow on this, I'm not defending it at all, but who went to prison?? The pope, the cardinals,the bishops?? HEll no they didn't. Simply more "great" important alpha males. Ending the Penn State football program is treating a gun shot wound with a bandaid and poisoned aspirin.

And the fact of the matter is that nearly all of us put in similar situations as what went on at Penn State would have done the exact same thing. And we all know it. It's fun to be a keyboard hero though.

scrambler wrote: And the fact of the matter is that nearly all of us put in similar situations as what went on at Penn State would have done the exact same thing. And we all know it. It's fun to be a keyboard hero though.

scrambler wrote: And the fact of the matter is that nearly all of us put in similar situations as what went on at Penn State would have done the exact same thing. And we all know it. It's fun to be a keyboard hero though.

This is the stupidest shit i've read in a long time.

You know that because?

"It's human nature durrrrrrr!!!!"

Fuck off.

Fuck I missed this statement. Must have been right after I dozed off reading his manifesto.

If you believe that, then obviously you would be OK covering for a pedophile. Which means your opinion on just about anything else is

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

Why?

Again, why does Penn State have some God gien right to not be Akron given what it did to protect the cash cow?

A: It lost that priviledge.

And Spi, screw ur spelling smack. And I feel dirty for agreeing with you.

I am not arguing any point regarding Penn State, nor am I advocating for or against the Death Penalty. Just arguing with Spin about the economics of college athletics.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

You guys are missing the whole point.

Without football, they would need to find other ways to fund the other athletic programs. Certainly not easy, for a school that has been spoiled by all the football cash and JoPa's fund raising rolling in by the trainload.

But it's certainly not impossible to maintain those sports. And it doesn't cost much more to equip a women's softball player at PSU than it does Akron. Or pay their full ride. Bus travel costs to conference opponents aside.

I agree with this. But what you wrote above is a bit different than "give them the Death Penalty because no one makes money on football anyway." That was my point.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

The Nittany Lions football program brings about $70.2 million in direct business to the state, of which $50 million benefited Centre County, where Penn State is located, according to an economic study commissioned by the school for the 2008-09 academic year.

In the fiscal year ending in 2011, the athletic department generated $116.1 million in operating revenue and posted a $14.8 million operating profit. The surplus helped pay for maintenance and building projects within the department.

If football’s revenue and expenses were eliminated from the budget, the university would have posted a loss of $29.1 million on $57.2 million of revenue, according to the school’s records. Penn State, with a undergraduate student population of about 37,000, would have to make up the difference or cut programs to pare its expenses.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Emmert and Delany start rattling sabers and - surprise surprise surprise - the former chairman of the board of trustees quits the board entirely and the remaining trustees vote to take down the statue this weekend.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

You guys are missing the whole point.

Without football, they would need to find other ways to fund the other athletic programs. Certainly not easy, for a school that has been spoiled by all the football cash and JoPa's fund raising rolling in by the trainload.

But it's certainly not impossible to maintain those sports. And it doesn't cost much more to equip a women's softball player at PSU than it does Akron. Or pay their full ride. Bus travel costs to conference opponents aside.

I agree with this. But what you wrote above is a bit different than "give them the Death Penalty because no one makes money on football anyway." That was my point.

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

You guys are missing the whole point.

Without football, they would need to find other ways to fund the other athletic programs. Certainly not easy, for a school that has been spoiled by all the football cash and JoPa's fund raising rolling in by the trainload.

But it's certainly not impossible to maintain those sports. And it doesn't cost much more to equip a women's softball player at PSU than it does Akron. Or pay their full ride. Bus travel costs to conference opponents aside.

I agree with this. But what you wrote above is a bit different than "give them the Death Penalty because no one makes money on football anyway." That was my point.

Sorry if that's how I came off.

No worries. This is an extremely emotional issue. I probably over-reacted. That being said, it seems as if the biggest impediment to change is the BOT, which is apparently nothing more than PSU alums who are also JoePa sycophants.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

peeker643 wrote:I predict the statue comes down between 3am-5am on some Tuesday morning between now and the season's first game in Beaver Stadium.

And more likely between now and the date that students come back for fall semester.

I missed the day of the week but the statute came down this morning. Before students got back and under cover of darkness.

The Joe Paterno statue was removed Sunday morning from its pedestal outside Beaver Stadium, and it will be stored in an unnamed "secure location," Penn State president Rodney Erickson announced. Erickson also said the Paterno name will remain on the university's library.

Shortly before dawn in State College, Pa., a work crew installed chain-link fences to barricade access to Porter Road outside Beaver Stadium and covered the fence with a blue tarp.

The work crew then removed the 7-foot, 900-pound bronze statue by forklift and placed it into the lower level of the stadium. Erickson released his highly sensitive decision to the public at 7 a.m. ET Sunday.

mattvan1 wrote:As an aside, comparing Tri-C and Akron and PSU because they all have varsity sports is the same as saying Colt McCoy and Mark Sanchez and Tom Brady are all equal because they happen to play the same position.

You guys are missing the whole point.

Without football, they would need to find other ways to fund the other athletic programs. Certainly not easy, for a school that has been spoiled by all the football cash and JoPa's fund raising rolling in by the trainload.

But it's certainly not impossible to maintain those sports. And it doesn't cost much more to equip a women's softball player at PSU than it does Akron. Or pay their full ride. Bus travel costs to conference opponents aside.

I agree with this. But what you wrote above is a bit different than "give them the Death Penalty because no one makes money on football anyway." That was my point.

Sorry if that's how I came off.

No worries. This is an extremely emotional issue. I probably over-reacted. That being said, it seems as if the biggest impediment to change is the BOT, which is apparently nothing more than PSU alums who are also JoePa sycophants.

A dysfunctional governance structure, and not just at state college. But that's a thread hijack.