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Dawn never got the chance to be in control of her battle. Mamoswine got angry because carnivine stole it ice shard and stop listening and james capitalize on this. im pretty sure if mamoswine had listened, dawn probably would have won. having mamoswine disobyed was thev writers way of giving team rocket the victory with out trivializing dawn's skills or accomplishments as a trainer.

So what exactly would be wrong with Dawn losing to Jessie or James without Mamoswine's temper problems? Jessie does have a measure of talent in Contests, as her two ribbons before this episode attest. And when given the chance to have a longer battle, James has held his own on many previous occasions. Since he has helped and supported Jessie in every single previous contest, he's clearly learned a lot about them. A loss to a disguised Team Rocket member in a legitimate Contest battle is exactly the same as any other loss.

Originally Posted by Caseydia

And how could she even think of usng Mamoswine when she darn well knows it hasn't been trained well to listen to her enough? Often she doesn't seem to think.

Kotone brought up this exact question, though in a much more polite manner. Dawn's response was that she was treating it just like any other Contest.

Originally Posted by BM14murph

The final battle was amazing with Mamoswine going back to his roots and being really tempermental

Mamoswine's "roots" are in disobedience due to lack of respect for Dawn. What happened here was simply that it lost its temper. It's still a problem that Dawn and Mamoswine have to work on, but there is a distinct difference.

Originally Posted by Meron

No, no, NO. She was angry that she didn't get her screentime, and then she announced something that she is the real Candy Musarina and put her dress on.

She didn't say those exact words, she was just re-stating her Top Coordinator goal.

Possibly the most disappointing contest. Carnivine was too "skillful" in this contest. Maybe because it was focused but I still didn't like how it outmaneuvered Mamoswine. Mamoswine losing control was cool though, it shows that although Dawn's gotten stronger, she still needs to train Mamoswine a little bit harder.

Yes it does and if you know what a scare quote is then it'll probably make sense to you. The word "beat" was used in a sensationalized context many times in this thread to make it seem as if james just annihilated dawn like the way paul did ash in their 6 on 6 battle. And in reality that just isnt true, which is what that sentence is saying. when quotation marks are used like that it usually signifies that the word is being used in a different context or to draw emphasis to it. In this case it's meant to do both.

on face value if may seem like a contradiction but really...it isnt. I hope the above was enough to clear up your confusion.

So what exactly would be wrong with Dawn losing to Jessie or James without Mamoswine's temper problems? Jessie does have a measure of talent in Contests, as her two ribbons before this episode attest.
Firstly i like the way you say "temper problems"....it just makes it sound like its was an angry mamoswine. Not an angry, rampaging mamoswine that wouldnt listen to its trainer.
secondly, I see what you just tried to do there and its a amateur and pretty stupid move tbh. Not once did I say anything about jessie, and using her name the way you just did implies that I think that there is a problem with dawn losing to jessie (which isnt even what this is about) and it tries to take away validity from the point i was trying to make. I really wouldnt care if dawn lost to james but the mamoswine that took out granbull with one hit wasnt the same mamoswine (attitude wise) that battle against james. If it was, there's no doubt that battle would have gone differently, even if dawn still lost (meaning it would have been a lot closer). dawn was still reletively inexperience when she won the wallace cup against May (a very competent co-ordinator) with a piplup againts a pokemon (glaceon) thats been in a lots of contest and recently gained power by evolving. so i dont see why she would have lost if mamoswine listended, against a pokemon that gets KO by thunderbolts, water gun and even bubble beam every episode and a trainer (even if knowledgeable) that has never been in a contest.

And when given the chance to have a longer battle, James has held his own on many previous occasions. Since he has helped and supported Jessie in every single previous contest, he's clearly learned a lot about them. A loss to a disguised Team Rocket member in a legitimate Contest battle is exactly the same as any other loss.

Yes it is a legitimate contest battle but it is in no way excactly the same loss as any other loss. im guessing you didnt see the part where mamoswine didnt listen or maybe you just watched the pictures on serebii.net. i can honestly tell you that this is the first time in pokemon contest history that anyone lost has occured beacuse of a pokemon that wont listen.
K.

Argh, it is so typical of this site that when I'm just lurking, it loads fine, but when I actually decide to post something, it slows to a crawl. -_- So I don't have to wait through still more load times in order to section off quotes, I'll try to do without:

I don't know what you're reading, but the fact is, James dominated because Mamoswine was out of control. Putting any kind of spin on this fact is just a confusing waste of time. Hopefully that isn't what you're trying to do.

You said: "having mamoswine disobyed was thev writers way of giving team rocket the victory with out trivializing dawn's skills or accomplishments as a trainer." So let me try to explain again, since I may not have made myself clear: Does that mean that you think that if Dawn had lost to James without Mamoswine's temper problems (it lost its temper and went out of control, so yes, it has temper problems), or if she had lost to him with another Pokemon, it would 'trivialize her skills and accomplishments as a trainer'? If so, I disagree, for the reasons I already stated.

About the last point of mine that you responded to: My point was simply that a loss is a loss. It was an official contest, there was no dishonesty or trickery involved, so there is no reason to put any sort of disclaimer on the loss. One just accepts it and moves on.

Argh, it is so typical of this site that when I'm just lurking, it loads fine, but when I actually decide to post something, it slows to a crawl. -_- So I don't have to wait through still more load times in order to section off quotes, I'll try to do without:

I don't know what you're reading, but the fact is, James dominated because Mamoswine was out of control. Putting any kind of spin on this fact is just a confusing waste of time. Hopefully that isn't what you're trying to do.

What I was simply trying to do is bring some realism to this thread. IMO, James didnt dominate, owned and every other word that was used to exaggerate dawns loss in this thread. I think he capitalise on mamoswine "temper issues" as carnivine spend most of the battle jumping over mamoswine and dodging attacks, how the heck is that dominating? And yes james did win because mamoswine was out of control. I'm glad you saw that too.

You said: "having mamoswine disobyed was thev writers way of giving team rocket the victory with out trivializing dawn's skills or accomplishments as a trainer." So let me try to explain again, since I may not have made myself clear: Does that mean that you think that if Dawn had lost to James without Mamoswine's temper problems (it lost its temper and went out of control, so yes, it has temper problems), or if she had lost to him with another Pokemon, it would 'trivialize her skills and accomplishments as a trainer'? If so, I disagree, for the reasons I already stated.

Yes. if dawn had control of mamoswine throughout the battle, there is no doubt in my mind, it would have went differently as i mentioned above, a win possibly. The writers wanted james to win and there had to be a good reason for this.. right or wrong?....now if mamoswine didnt lose its temper and james still won, wouldnt it be illogical for the writers to make james (a novice) do what jessie and May 2 experience coordinators fail to do, jessie on more than one occasion.

And your reasons was: "And when given the chance to have a longer battle, James has held his own on many previous occasions. Since he has helped and supported Jessie in every single previous contest, he's clearly learned a lot about them."

except for the pokeringer contest in hoenn, I cant think of any occasion when james has held his own (he failed miserably in second ringer tournament btw) but that may be due to the fact that he hardly does anything and the only times he has showed skill in any battle is when jessie is there battling beside him. and dawn may have learned a lot from her mom about contest, but still loss her first one, ash has been in a few never won any, so not because he learn about them justifies him winning his first. I think having mamoswine disobey was a good way of letting him win. It doesnt make him seem better than any of the main co-ordinators and i repeat it doesnt trivialise or down play dawn's skills as a trainer.

About the last point of mine that you responded to: My point was simply that a loss is a loss. It was an official contest, there was no dishonesty or trickery involved, so there is no reason to put any sort of disclaimer on the loss. One just accepts it and moves on.

Touché, a loss is a loss and i cant disagree with that, but the way the writers choose to have mamoswine disobey, made it feel like dawn had a handicap as there really wasnt anything she could do and to me that made it seem terribly one-sided, unfair, cheap whatever....lol

Touché, a loss is a loss and i cant disagree with that, but the way the writers choose to have mamoswine disobey, made it feel like dawn had a handicap as there really wasnt anything she could do and to me that made it seem terribly one-sided, unfair, cheap whatever....lol

Off the top of my head I can think of the Ralts episode in Hoenn...at least I think it was that one...there was a longer-than-usual battle with Team Rocket then that gave Max a chance to escape with Ralts if I remember correctly. There was also the "One Trick Phony" episode in Johto where a disguised James battled using a rented Venusaur, and he did very well then. He also approached that shiny Metagross with something resembling a strategy, since he had Mime Jr. confuse it first. It backfired, but it still showed he had some kind of plan. Like I said, when given the chance, James knows what he's doing.

Off the top of my head I can think of the Ralts episode in Hoenn...at least I think it was that one...there was a longer-than-usual battle with Team Rocket then that gave Max a chance to escape with Ralts if I remember correctly. There was also the "One Trick Phony" episode in Johto where a disguised James battled using a rented Venusaur, and he did very well then. He also approached that shiny Metagross with something resembling a strategy, since he had Mime Jr. confuse it first. It backfired, but it still showed he had some kind of plan. Like I said, when given the chance, James knows what he's doing.

Okay.... at first I thought you were biased and wasnt looking at the battle objectively, so you just failed to see the point i was trying to make. today i noticed something in your sig and i was like...hmmmm interesting???lol anyhoo i think i've said enough to back up my point which was and still is "having mamoswine disobyed was the writers way of giving team rocket the victory with out trivializing dawn's skills or accomplishments as a trainer."

you said you disagreed beacause
1)"James has held his own on many previous occasions. Since he has helped and supported Jessie in every single previous contest, he's clearly learned a lot about them."

2) Ummmm going back a few post, thats all ive found really.

I think I've said enough to prove that james wouldnt have won under normal circumstances, normal meaning dawn having full control of her pokemon. And because he knows about contest isnt a plausible reason for him to win his first( see the bit where i talked about ash). I can think of a lot more times james has been imcompetent (e.g. using mime jr to catch a metagross, see ...there's 2 ways of looking at it) but i'll be going around in circles.

Oh well. I'm not going to bother pursuing this anymore, it's not worth it to me. Let me just end by saying that yes, I think Dawn would have won under normal circumstances, but I also think James would have put up a pretty good fight in the process.

A little off-topic, but I don't think you can use the Mime Jr/Metagross thing as evidence of any incompetence. All we really know is that James chose to start the battle with Teeter Dance. Nothing wrong with that. He could very well have intended to switch in Carnivine afterward, but we just didn't get a chance to see it because of what happened next.

I really enjoyed the episode...it's looking more and more like the writers want Jessie to enter the Grand Festival this time around...somewhat legit I guess...But now, this is another reason why DP is so lame just because this series is soo dragged out...Dawn has now just partaken in her 9th contest. This is more than badges that Ash needs for the league!! Dawn still has yet to get her fifth ribbon...The writers have dragged this season out for Dawn to lose FIVE contests, and win four ribbons....over quite a long period of time, it makes me wonder...what are the writers setting Dawn up for? Losing all these contests, and her team is changing like crazy...and her team is still unbalanced...I don't mean to compare characters but Dawn hardly compares to May at this rate....I know May had her rookie moments, and Hoenn was a shorter arc, but at least that arc didn't lack substance...

One of the best contest episodes ever. I loved the twist on the ending and how Mamoswine's Ice Shard Swallow technique didn't pull through for it in the end(I think someone predicted this, no? Back in DP 141) and how James won something for once.

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites" - Karen. Ilu so much ;;

The contest was awesome. It was nice to see Mamoswine in a contest despite his temper.

10/10
It was a truly amazing episode. Meowth was used which I think is cool. James did better than Jessie probably could have. If Dawn had used Buneary or Pachirisu over Mamoswine, Dawn might have won but using Mamoswine was better because now he knows what it is like actually being in a contest. The Dub Title is also one of my favorites.

This is one of the few times Team Rocket actually succeeds. It also proves that, even if Jessie is abusive to them, James and Meowth are willing to help her.
Poor Dawn. It was an absolute disaster for her, wasn't it?

This was surely such a great episode. Im surprised to see James and Meowth compete for Jessie this time, and they did such an epic job.

I was surprised also by their appeal round, with the noodles. That COTD character (from Noodles! Roamin' Off!) even appeared shortly after, guess he was proud. x3 I thought that was a nice touch. ^^

Mamoswin's Icy back was also pretty cool too, even taking Grotle's discovery from eating your own Energy Ball. In this case, Ice Shard for Mamo. Shame to see however Mamoswine's rage built up at the Semi round, acting like his old self from when he became a Mamoswine. :P

Still, even though Dawn didn't win, glad to see James won. ^^ That's #3, snap.

Well, Im excited for next weeks episode, but sad it'll be Lyra and Khoury's last episode.

I liked the animation during the Mamoswine v. Carnivine battle. I also thought that Carnivine throwing Mamoswine where the judges were was a nice touch just to show how dominant Carnivine was. It's something like this that makes me wonder why James doesn't participate in more battles like this.

A really brilliant episode that makes up for the Jhoto "whatever" we've had in the last few episodes.

This episode really emphasizes that Dawn is okay with losing as long as she tries her best; and the consolation she gives Mamoswine immediately after losing is sort of touching. Dawn did lose to Kenny in the contest before (I think), so I suppose it's a little weird that the writers out of the blue emphasize this contest that Dawn really understands the nature of being a trainer. Ash and Lyra were more concerned about Dawn's loss than she was! (Side note: love the voice actress for Lyra; she's really fun to listen to)
This aspect of the episode makes it an essential one to the Sinnoh story.

Interesting that Jessie basically cheated to get her ribbon. Wonder where this will go... (although it is nice to finally see Team Rocket "win" at something)

Yet another episode involving James crossdressing. I'd say his Oak and Jessie disguises are actually better then Team Rocket's other disguises in general. The ice shards on Mamoswine's back reminded me of Beast Ganon and that monster from Metroid Prime. Carnivine's got skills, which leads to James victory. I get praised whenever Team Rocket actually win for once, and this one is no exception.

Wow this was actually a really good episode, I thought it was going to be really routine. James proves once again that he can pretty much do anything better than Jessie. Meowth's appeal was really cool and giving the judges a bowl to eat was smart. (Even if it was a sort of bribe.)

Mamoswine was pitiful, Dawn should have used it on the appeal stage. Guess she'll have to wait before she gets that 5th ribbon.