IskatuMesk wrote:Basic scourge are overpowered enough, we lowered their damage because of that remember? This is because they cannot overkill.

For the lowered combo costs, that was already considered. It's in fact the combo scourges tiers that I lowered their costs the least out of all possible combo units all proportions kept.

The tier upgrades costs +10 in gas instead of +15 (thus +20 for Phantom instead of +30) compared to most other gas units that got their gas cost back to the base unit's gas cost.

At least half of these units are either redundant or could just simply replace existing combo units like Stormtrooper replacing the (frankly useless) regeneration marine.

From Vet's propositions that was what I was kind of worried. Although, combo units likely end up being redundant by nature (without being essentially Elite units flagged as Combo). I didn't post every of his suggestions yet although.

For the regeneration marine, the +1 hp/sec was mostly to minimize the drawback of Stimpacks (especially for big numbers of marines). The 40/10 costs (due to the gas) was probably the main reason it wasn't too bought/made (which is now 50/0 even up to Splash Marines). Eventually I might make some new type of combo marines (like any other potential type of units) at some point.

Anyway, posting more of Vet's ideas (from his Youtube PMs) in case we do manage to get some good stuff :

Elite Unit Ideas:Heroes some stuff that was gathered up randomly:---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(Protoss Units)--->-Hybrid Siphonist: 1000HP, 1500Shields, 20-50DmgX2 Cleave Melee, 2.13ms, 1.68as, +1.5HP-Regeneration, 250 Energy, +0.8EP-RegenerationAbilities--==================================================--Consume DNA: Drains 30% of the Target's health if target has 100+ HP and feeds it to the Hybrid, units w/o 100+HP are killed instantly.--Detector: Detects nearby invisible or hidden units/building in a 150m Range--Consume: Allows the hybrid to consume Half health of a nearby allied unit for a total of 25% of the Hybrid's Base Energy.--Psi Storm: Deals 80Dmg/4sec in a small area of the Hybrid's choice.--Plasma Surge: Restores 100 Shields to nearby allied units

[NOTICE]: Jacksons revenge idea was placed to prevent madness caused by the need for terran upgrades when making pure terran.[NOTICE #2]: SAM Hellion will replace the AA hellion with a long range AoE Anti-Ground and air Attack at the cost of major attack speed, Thus providing support for the ground troops. If you can have it so where it can hit ground That'd be great, then that would solve the Hellion clutter.

Last PM from Vet :Zerg is still Underpowered in the Long End of the game, they are heavily useless, Unless you can make swarm guardians get +5 Dmg per up, because 20 dmg + 25% splash isnt gunna cut it. If you see how effective a support Swarm Guards r in Desert strike, you'll see.

->-Hybrid Siphonist: - Be very careful with high damage AoE, especially as a base attack. I like the ability ideas but 80dps will kill 90% of the units in the game before they can escape it.

(Scout) Squadron Leader - This unit has nearly the range of a viking and like 4x the damage. All the less reason to make big, slow air units like bcs or carriers.

(Dark Templar) Shakuras Elite - It's a dt that 1shots land units when we already have very strong cloaked ground unit capabilities (phantom reapers/dts/commandos once they stop sucking). Be careful with high damage values...

->-(Jacksons Revenge) Destroyer: - Yes, terran do need some heavy air options that preferably don't melt to scouts/vrs/vikings in half a second. Be aware that the recent patch did make bcs faster, so siege units should probably be slower than they are now.

>-(War Prig) Veteran Soldier: - Could work. Without overkill, units with instant (Diamondback is instant) attacks that do massive damage will work very differently than you expect. Keep note of that at all times.

Take the "Regular" Leviathan and slap it in, it will not affect gameplay at all for one thing. - Remove the ability to spawn mustaches/mutas are no cost and take a look at the bioplasma attack and disable attack. AFAIK the disable lasts quite a long time. Otherwise yes, I've been saying to do this for months now.

- Don't use 1 damage attacks, even with upgrades they will do nothing. Armor will just absorb damage in this game now. Otherwise this is the kind of unit I want to see. Movespeed will be how you balance it.

--(Banshee) Heavy Gunship: - I have absolutely no idea what will happen when you add a unit with an 80 damage burst AoE AG, but I'll tell you zerg will whine. Make note that AA defenses, even with their upgrades, are still mince meat vs simple things like void rays and scouts.

--(Roach) Hunter: - I liked this until I saw perma invis. Zerg already get moving lurkers (with an upgrade), right? This thing has the potential for major hilarity. I can't remember what units have detection in this map currently, but this has the potential to work in some way.

I like all the upgrade ideas except for the slow on marauders which is already retardedly overpowered IMO. The Goliath, hatchery/lair/hive, missile turret upgrades especially. I've been saying make missile turrets hit land for quite a while. Stuff like the nexus also helps us present some racial diversity which is always a good thing. Corruptors will need that upgrade to be any useful.

--Nidhogg: +1000 HP - This sound hilarious. I don't know how it will counter void rays but it will definitely help out zerg's currently weak air force. They need something like this for sure.

Zerg is still Underpowered in the Long End of the game, they are heavily useless, Unless you can make swarm guardians get +5 Dmg per up, because 20 dmg + 25% splash isnt gunna cut it. If you see how effective a support Swarm Guards r in Desert strike, you'll see.

I've won with Zerg before but the thing about zerg is they simply have less options. Take mass thors, for example. You absolutely must have a gigantic stack of mustaches ready for when they show up, or you're pretty much dead. Omegalisks are pretty decent now. Hydras with all their upgrades were quite good offensively. Now that they're tier 1.5 units again, I expect zerg to be quite decent, especially if some of these upgrades and new units make it in.

>Can build: Missile Turrets, Photon Cannons W/o Pylon Need, Bunkers, Spore Cannons, Spine/Spore Crawlers.>Can Build at the cost of "food" and "gas" buildings that offer support and can be recycled. In Examples Below:

--Disruption Field: Slows enemies within the field by 15% Movement/Attack--Reflector Shield: Provides the Guardian Shield Effect to nearby friendly units within range.--Repair Module: Repairs nearby friendly mechanical units or buildings. (Costs Energy)--Healing Station: Heals nearby friendly biological units or buildings. (Costs Energy)--Power Generator: Increases the energy regeneration of nearby friendly units by 0.6/sec.--Energy Field: Provides a wall of pure stasis energy that blocks enemies/allies from getting past. (can be destroyed)--Shield Generator: Provides shield regeneration to nearby friendly units in range. (In-combat: 0.7/sec)(OOC: 1.2/sec)--Trading Post: Allows the exchange of: Mineral > Gas, Gas > Mineral. (Minerals & gas Traded here are sent & split among the current merchants in the game)(Note: Warlords will get the Currency they traded for, The merchants will get the currency the warlord traded to get the other currency.)--Crystal Rejuvenator: Restores 6 Minerals to a chosen mineral field every 2-mins. (Works like the Neural Parasite Effect)--Howitzer: Allows the construction of a very powerful gun emplacement that can offer advanced base protection from large ground threats. (750 HP, -5 Armor, Restricted Range of Fire 10-RS, Range 25, Costs 8000 Gas, 50 Supply, 250-500 Pure Damage, 25.65as, (Deals AoE Damage by 4x4)(Planetary Fortress Attack)--Flak Cannon: Allows the construction of a very powerful gun emplacement that can offer advanced base protection from large aerial threats. (425 HP, -3 Armor, Restricted Range of Fire 6-RS, Range 20, Costs 6800 Gas, 50 Supply, 80-180 Pure Damage, 24.44as, (Deals AoE Damage by 3x3)(Thor AA Attack)--Jihad Cannon: Allows the construction of a building that loads a 2x2 and below sized unit and fires it at an enemy dealing damage based on 50% of the unit's fired current HP. (Maximum Units loaded at a Time can be 4) (5.00as)

Now the fact that these are rather original for W&M is a final note that none may ever make it in, but I personally think some of these new things could be rather chaotic. The "Jihad Cannon" was added to be a way of getting rid of loose supply that you don't need and using it to harm your enemies, So if you had like 20 Leftover marines, load em up, enjoy the damage, For Holy War!

As you have seen, I have no life, thanks for letting me know.

Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Some of those special buildings could be condensed into fewer. For example: energy, shield, and biological health regeneration could all be one tower. Mechanical healing could be combined with something else, or also given shield/energy regen. Reflector Shield seems pointless by itself, I'd combine that with the Disruptor Field. But I could just get snowglobes if I wanted Guardian Shield. Maybe replace that ability with a friendly version of the Disruptor? Then you can name it the CHRONOSPHERE and call it a day.

I can see the Howitzer being used to initiate pushes... but not for defending bases. Not with a 50 supply cost.

Definitely liking the idea of an elite builder unit, moreso than the combo units. This map needs stronger defense options. The only thing is that Photon Cannons w/o Pylon power should probably be an Adv. Research upgrade as opposed to being unique to the engineer unit.

- Wraiths now have +1 range (from 5 to 6).- Double Archons (Best combo of Archons) now also have their range doubled (from 2 to 4).- Double Archons have base costs lowered to 450/450.- Murloc Marines shots at 1.5x rate (from 2.0x) with Reaper guns but now can also hit air.- Gunmasters have their gas cost lowered to 75.- Medics now gains +1 Heal range (from 2 to 3).- Adv.R "Advanced Medic Training" now grants +2 heal range (3 to 5) as well as its previous non-tech lab requirement for medics.- Goliath's base air range is now 7 (from 6). Charon Boosters allows 10 air range total.- Added "Goliath Multi-Lock Adv" : Ground/Air simultaneous attacks, +20% attack speed for both.- Sniper Commando's Line Snipe now having a 5 seconds delay to use and a 5 seconds cooldown (which it does 100 damage to a line). That's truly the lowest values I can put without it being plain retarded. I already imagine mass units dying to them.

Now, some people find it hard to do that...but...Actually if you spent about four to five hours sitting in the data editor and module addifier, I'm sure you'll find out how, but then again its scrapped.

Last edited by Vetraeus on Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Do not argue with an idiot; He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

So... after our two games last night, one of which I intentionally went Zerg in knowing I would die, I made the following observations;

- Zerg suck.- Static defenses in general suck.- Void rays are still retarded. Though, Flux Veins still exists for some reason. Fuck.- Ricky is like aids and exceptionally difficult to scrape off of my buttocks.

You'd think hydras, being light, would be decent against VRs, especially when maxed out and with the range upgrades. Well, they're not. They're terrible. This is because the fact they're light means absolutely nothing. -4 damage in that big of a dps brawl means utterly nothing. As soon as a VR is charged it rips apart everything, light, armored, or not.

I really want to say just remove vrs entirely. I mean, there's ways you could make them more balanced, but you wouldn't like what I have in mind (I wanted to turn them into a capital ship in one of my concepts, removing it from "medium" air and having it as "super heavy air".)

That said, both P and T have decent options against VRs, but zerg only have scourge which are stupidly overpowered. I think having to abuse overpowered units just to deal with other semi-overpowered units is kind of silly. I have a few ideas on how to balance scourge and try to bypass the hitscan effect.

Why not have scourge turn themselves into missiles and shoot themselves at a target in close range? Wouldn't they be capable of overkilling this way? Then you could raise their damage back to where it was but they wouldn't be grossly horrific.

Corruptors are one of the units in sc2 that really confounds me. They suck. They do terrible damage, and that's vs massive. Their damage vs stuff like mutas or vrs is really, REALLY bad. They're so bad that statistically speaking they're only comparable to a mutalisk vs a void ray. That's with corruption, which is insignificant enough for the Corruptor that it only adds 1-2 damage vs a VR.

I want to see Corruptors do splash damage at the very least. 30-40% splash damage in a radius comparable to the Thor's. That, and have their attack auto-apply corruption to air units (castable still on land). This auto-apply will use the cooldown but only if their target doesn't already have the debuff. This should make them more viable vs stuff like wraith and vrs stacks that current give zerg a ridiculously hard time.

Defenses.

Static defenses are really, really terrible except for the PF. Once the ibiks upgrade comes out the PF becomes the single most useful and desirable defensive structure ever. It's big, it's squishy, and it takes forever to make. But it's still the best because it can do decent damage AND last longer than 1 seconds vs a stack of any given air unit. Other structures might get 1 shot off but always die horribly.

I really want to see some major changes to structures. The biggest one I want to see is the removal of the Armored flag. This will help buildings survive more in general. The other is a dramatic HP increase across the board. Through upgrades if you want (preferably player-researchable ones). And, of course, damage increases tied to those upgrades. Static defense can't do anything in standard sc2. In this map it's basically a waste, especially for zerg, who has to sacrifice a drone to make one at all.

What is wrong with the zerg's economy? Why is it so much harder to get a stable economy going than P or T? I guess I have to play Z a few more times to get a gist of it, but with 1 game a week (2 tonight for once), I never get a good look at what's going on past spastic swingy battles that usually exemplify something being horrifically OP. When I ate mucky's main I was starved dry while he supposedly had 60k in the bank, and I didn't see too many bases mining when I cleared out the right half of the map.

Also, whoever the fuck was telling the locations of enemy players throughout the game, especially when talking about my hidden island expand and HKS' expansions, deserves to be kicked out of the event permanently. Fuck that shit. I'm not having more of this garbage from wc3. This has happened several times already and I will not play with people who do that. Observation rights should NEVER be abused. Even if we're all ganging up on ricky because we're dicks I'm not going to flat out ping his bases because I died and am now a merchant.

Summary -

Zerg desperately need those hive/lair/hatch defenses.Queens should have a stackable mini mining aura or something to help shitty mining.Corruptors need some big changes to be any useful, and to help the zerg's major weak point - anti-air.

Why not add morph levels for static defenses? You build a photon cannon and pay extra money to transition into a photon cannon lv2, and then again to get a photon cannon lv3. It'd work the same way Hatch/Lair/Hive morphing does.

PHOTON CANNON150 MINERALS150/150 HP/SHIELDS20 DAMAGE

PHOTON CANNON LV2150 (300 TOTAL) MINERALS300/300 HP/SHIELDS40 DAMAGE

PHOTON CANNON LV3150 (450 TOTAL) MINERALS450/450 HP/SHIELDS60 DAMAGE

Numbers can be changed, but it's the concept that counts. The way I see it, the biggest weakness of static defense is building space. This isn't a problem in 1v1 games, but on a custom map the size of my anus with a 300 supply limit means it's very, very easy to get a critical mass of VRs. The VRs stack up, so all of them can get in and do DPS. You could build 100 cannons, which would be enough in theory, but the problem is that they're too spread out to be able to do any damage. At best, only 20 of those 100 cannons would be able to shoot at the stack of VRs.

So instead of giving static defense buildings a retarded amount of splash (which, IMO, would imbalance everything in a different direction), give them the ability to morph into higher tiers. That way, you could have 30 cannons, each possessing the strength of 3 for a total of 90, and most of them will be able to attack air stacks at the same time.

We need to be able to revive and relocate our Defenders. It's the only respectable defense in the game right now. Plus, it's kind of silly to have special upgrades devoted to them when all they are is a one-trick pony.

Zerg isn't any worse off as far as gathering rates (they shouldn't be that would be fucking RETARDEDededed). It's the fact that they have to sacrifice drones for buildings, and you're not constantly producing workers like P and T are. You have to choose between drones or troops, so it can be pretty easy to neglect drones.

I think the Princess abilities should be merged with the Queen. First of all, Princess is a hilariously bad name which obviously reflects the fact that it's been replaced. Second, its overall role has been replaced by the Overseer (changeling>parasite) and Infestor (aids>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ensnare). Third, more spellcasters for Zerg isn't necessarily better. Two big things I'd like to see is the SC2 Queens receiving Spawn Broodlings so they can instagib any ground units, and an upgrade that turns Queens into fliers, or allows transformation back and forth ala the Viking.

A way of nerfing VRs while keeping them viable would be to change the way its charging works. Say, make VRs charge a bit faster... but if they switch targets, or stop attacking for even a second, they lose their charges. That way they won't get this snowball effect where they start a battle, get charges and then start blowing shit up really fast. They could still be BC/Odin/Omegalisk killers since those units would stay alive long enough for VRs to charge up. On units like Hydras, they shouldn't be getting charges at all.

EDIT: I think it's time to allow Warlords to research 6/6 upgrades for their own race.

When Mesk killed my base in the second game, I noticed he had 6/6 upgrades for everything, meanwhile I only had 3/3 and there were no Merchants selling 4+ for a long while. This is the second time I've been fucked up the ass because of an upgrade disparity I had no control over. I suppose it's my fault for being stubborn and not buying Zerg units, but I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to change my entire army composition because Cockgobbler Conglomerates is selling 6/6 upgrades for one race while not selling the equivalent upgrades for my own race.