I wonder if the team bosses saw Kimi's season through sympathetic eyes; a different (better) strategy in Monaco and being allowed to attack an ailing Vettel when vastly quicker in Hungary and all of a sudden Kimi is a multiple race winner again and there is life in the old dog yet. He still wasn't good enough over the year for me, and I don't think Bottas particularly covered himself in glory (especially post summer break, which is probably fresher in the mind when coming to vote on these things) but i'd still put Bottas higher.

Looks just like it does every year. Nonsensical. 10 very busy men probably spending 30 seconds to run through the first 10 that comes to mind. Perez beat the guy 5th on the list and doesn't even feature.

Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?

I don't think so. If you look at the points table before and after the summer break, Kimi got just over 77% of Vettel's points, almost exactly the same as Bottas did of Lewis. But before the break Kimi had just over 57% of Vettel's total, while Bottas had nearly 90% of Lewis' points haul, and that with a retirement. So relative to their team mates Kimi had a much better second half than Bottas did. Kimi improved, while Bottas went backwards, relatively speaking

Having said that, neither can be particular proud of their respective seasons, frankly. Just had different stronger halves

That's a strange logic despite doing as well as Bottas in the second half of the season, Kimi actually did better because he improved on his first half of the season whilst Bottas did worse.

Which was more than half the season, the fact that Kimi is rated so highly by the people that count is why he keeps getting a top drive, only 1 place lower than a driver that thrashed him, they must see something that a lot us don't?

Yes it's a head scratcher. I think he's been quite poor this year. He just cannot replicate his qualifying pace during the race and I can't remember the last time I thought he looked properly quick. But after a strong start, Bottas appears to have imploded, so overall I'd say he has had a worse season in terms of what he has shown he is capable of vs what he has delivered

Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.

Kimi's qualifying pace has been 3 tenths slower than Vettel and you look on that as being his main strength.

Bottas' highs have been much higher than Kimi's, his lows about the same, but because that makes Bottas look more inconsistent in comparison to Kimi then that's a negative for him, it's a strange overview that favours Kimi because he has been a more consistent driver.

Ah, I'd forgotten how picky you were. Silly me.

I said he was poor, too, so it's not like I've been endorsing him. But IMO he's looked a lot closer to Vettel generally speaking during qualifying than he has during races. He's occasionally beaten Vettel and often come quite close, but during races he's more often than not nowhere near as quick. So for me the gap in races is bigger than the gap in qualifying, overall.

Inconsistency is a reason to mark a driver down IMO. If a driver is not performing consistently at a level we know he can reach, then why would we rank him highly overall, just because he has a few good days?

Anyway, I think it's valid to rate them reasonably evenly. Both have been a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. You might have a different view but I wouldn't call it strange simply because it doesn't tally with my own.

Like I said consistency seems to be the key here, even when you have been more consistently poor.

In every metric Kimi has been further behind Vettel than Bottas has been behind Hamilton.

I don't think that last part is true. Black_Flag11 quoted stats above which show that the average qualifying gap between Bottas and Hamilton was 0.368s, while for the Ferrari pair it was 0.276.

Looks just like it does every year. Nonsensical. 10 very busy men probably spending 30 seconds to run through the first 10 that comes to mind. Perez beat the guy 5th on the list and doesn't even feature.

I can't help wondering what their basis for comparison is. Or how these people would define best and better. I think Flash2k11 is right in saying they view Kimi more sympathetically than some fans might, which I believe to be because they know, or believe they know, a few things for certain that never feature in reporters' articles. Not bringing the favoured driver's points tally into trouble definitely being the top "fact", in my mind at least.

But the list itself is barely good enough for a giggle.

_________________Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

1) Lewis #1 is no surprise, and unlike some past years I believe he probably earned it this time. He wasn't 100% on it early in the year, but I believe he was likely the best driver over the course of the year. 2) Verstappen #2... I can see it. Seb had some pretty poor moments, but Max also did in my opinion (Hungary comes to mind). I could see agreeing with this one, though. 3) Seb #3, see above. I can see it. 4) Ricciardo in #4 is probably too high over the course of the season - there was a patch in the middle where he was poorer than at least one of the drivers below him. 5) Ocon is badly overrated, IMO. He had got close to Perez by the end of the season, but still wasn't consistently quicker than him. He doesn't deserve to be above Perez under any circumstances, and #5 is too high. 6) Alonso is too low. Unless you believe Vandoorne is a chump and the Macca is actually a decent car, he was driving extremely well, and deserves to be just below the top clump. I would put him in #4, personally, and I think his real performance might be higher. 7) Raikkonen doesn't belong in the top ten. Sorry, Kimi. 7) Sainz does belong, but I'd put him above Ocon. He was dominant in the Toro Rosso, scoring all their good results, and he was nearly on Hulk's pace right away after joining Renault, something that we've seen is very difficult in the past. 9) Hulk totally dominated Palmer, but Palmer is a scrub. Still, I think he does deserve a place in the top ten, and ninth is probably fair - I wouldn't have Kimi above him, but I would have one other driver who isn't on this list there (Perez).10) Bottas in #10... Not sure. He certainly didn't do a worse job than Kimi for most of the season, and unlike Kimi he legitimately beat his teammate in at least a few races. However, no matter how good your teammate is, beating him in 'a few' races isn't amazing. He would probably stay where he is for me, with Kimi leaving and Perez coming in above him.

Perez is the real slight of the lot, clearly. He's certainly among the ten best drivers, and he didn't even make the list. That would be worrying if you're Perez.

A few things are remarkable:1. Verstappen above Ricciardo. Not terribly far apart, but clear enough.2. Ocon above Perez. By a big margin, with Ocon in fifth and Perez not in the top 10. While Ocon did very well, this vote is probably more influenced by perceived talent than by performance.3. Raikkonen figuring in the top 10 is debatable, but above Bottas even... No.4. Sainz above Hulkenberg, also not too sure.

I am fine with the top 3. Lewis was the more consistent, seemed to find the pace whenever he really needed it, Verstappen also looked quite pacey all year, but made some mistakes, showed some rawness, and Vettel had a couple of costly regrettable moments, but looked fast as well.

I would rank Alonso ahead of Ricciardo, felt that he drove a flawless season whereas Ricciardo has sometimes looked way off the pace. Alonso's only wrongdoing was the way he bashed and moaned about Honda publicly, if not for that he would have made my top three.

Perez was definitely better than Ocon, and should be rarnked higher than him, although the Frenchman was really impressive in his first full season. Those two make up one of the most interesting driver lineups as far as I'm concerned.

Raikonnen should be nowhere near the top ten, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be ranked above Bottas. If those two were teammates, I have no doubt Bottas would handily beat him, based on the fact that his highs have been more impressive than Kimi's.

I would really flip Hulk and Sainz too, Hulk, as always was an excellent qualifier this year and I think he will continue to prove that even with Sainz on the team. Some of his race performances have left a bit to be desired though, but so has Sainz's. They both deserve to be in the top 10, but again, Hulk should be rated higher.

A few things are remarkable:1. Verstappen above Ricciardo. Not terribly far apart, but clear enough.2. Ocon above Perez. By a big margin, with Ocon in fifth and Perez not in the top 10. While Ocon did very well, this vote is probably more influenced by perceived talent than by performance.3. Raikkonen figuring in the top 10 is debatable, but above Bottas even... No.4. Sainz above Hulkenberg, also not too sure.

Perez seems to have alienated so many of the top teams. I think he is a very good driver, he was appallingly treated at Mclaren. He should have been given a full two years at Mclaren, not dumped for the not so great Dane.

1) Lewis #1 is no surprise, and unlike some past years I believe he probably earned it this time. He wasn't 100% on it early in the year, but I believe he was likely the best driver over the course of the year. 2) Verstappen #2... I can see it. Seb had some pretty poor moments, but Max also did in my opinion (Hungary comes to mind). I could see agreeing with this one, though. 3) Seb #3, see above. I can see it. 4) Ricciardo in #4 is probably too high over the course of the season - there was a patch in the middle where he was poorer than at least one of the drivers below him. 5) Ocon is badly overrated, IMO. He had got close to Perez by the end of the season, but still wasn't consistently quicker than him. He doesn't deserve to be above Perez under any circumstances, and #5 is too high. 6)Alonso is too low. Unless you believe Vandoorne is a chump and the Macca is actually a decent car, he was driving extremely well, and deserves to be just below the top clump. I would put him in #4, personally, and I think his real performance might be higher. 7) Raikkonen doesn't belong in the top ten. Sorry, Kimi. 7) Sainz does belong, but I'd put him above Ocon. He was dominant in the Toro Rosso, scoring all their good results, and he was nearly on Hulk's pace right away after joining Renault, something that we've seen is very difficult in the past. 9) Hulk totally dominated Palmer, but Palmer is a scrub. Still, I think he does deserve a place in the top ten, and ninth is probably fair - I wouldn't have Kimi above him, but I would have one other driver who isn't on this list there (Perez).10) Bottas in #10... Not sure. He certainly didn't do a worse job than Kimi for most of the season, and unlike Kimi he legitimately beat his teammate in at least a few races. However, no matter how good your teammate is, beating him in 'a few' races isn't amazing. He would probably stay where he is for me, with Kimi leaving and Perez coming in above him.

Perez is the real slight of the lot, clearly. He's certainly among the ten best drivers, and he didn't even make the list. That would be worrying if you're Perez.

Quick point on the Alonso comment. He and Vandoorne actually drove different cars in quite a few races. Vandoorne was a true #2 driver and even had to give Alonso a tow during qualifying sessions. It's not fair to Vandoorne to compare the two of them as though they were in a real teammate battle.

1) Lewis #1 is no surprise, and unlike some past years I believe he probably earned it this time. He wasn't 100% on it early in the year, but I believe he was likely the best driver over the course of the year. 2) Verstappen #2... I can see it. Seb had some pretty poor moments, but Max also did in my opinion (Hungary comes to mind). I could see agreeing with this one, though. 3) Seb #3, see above. I can see it. 4) Ricciardo in #4 is probably too high over the course of the season - there was a patch in the middle where he was poorer than at least one of the drivers below him. 5) Ocon is badly overrated, IMO. He had got close to Perez by the end of the season, but still wasn't consistently quicker than him. He doesn't deserve to be above Perez under any circumstances, and #5 is too high. 6)Alonso is too low. Unless you believe Vandoorne is a chump and the Macca is actually a decent car, he was driving extremely well, and deserves to be just below the top clump. I would put him in #4, personally, and I think his real performance might be higher. 7) Raikkonen doesn't belong in the top ten. Sorry, Kimi. 7) Sainz does belong, but I'd put him above Ocon. He was dominant in the Toro Rosso, scoring all their good results, and he was nearly on Hulk's pace right away after joining Renault, something that we've seen is very difficult in the past. 9) Hulk totally dominated Palmer, but Palmer is a scrub. Still, I think he does deserve a place in the top ten, and ninth is probably fair - I wouldn't have Kimi above him, but I would have one other driver who isn't on this list there (Perez).10) Bottas in #10... Not sure. He certainly didn't do a worse job than Kimi for most of the season, and unlike Kimi he legitimately beat his teammate in at least a few races. However, no matter how good your teammate is, beating him in 'a few' races isn't amazing. He would probably stay where he is for me, with Kimi leaving and Perez coming in above him.

Perez is the real slight of the lot, clearly. He's certainly among the ten best drivers, and he didn't even make the list. That would be worrying if you're Perez.

Quick point on the Alonso comment. He and Vandoorne actually drove different cars in quite a few races. Vandoorne was a true #2 driver and even had to give Alonso a tow during qualifying sessions. It's not fair to Vandoorne to compare the two of them as though they were in a real teammate battle.

They alternated all year, the problem with the new front wing advantage Alonso had for the Americas week was we had back to back races and Macca couldn't get the new part to Stoff for Mexico only a week later so we had back to back races Alonso had a FW advantage. Stoff had an engine advantage in the US though (And a few other races thanks to reliability with Alono's specs).

They gave each other tows in Q1 in Spa and Alonso got one in Q2 because Stoff had a penalty and in Italy a week later Alonso first gave Stoff a tow but it didn't work in the wet so he instead lifted on his way to the line in Q2 so he didn't knock Stoff out as Alonso had the penalty this time.

Perfectly fair and no different to how McLaren always operate with alternating parts if they can only bring one(Alonso odd and Stoff even). Seems a bit harsh to rule out the whole battle because US and Mexico were only a week apart.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

4) Ricciardo in #4 is probably too high over the course of the season - there was a patch in the middle where he was poorer than at least one of the drivers below him.

Which patch was this?

Between Spain and Japan (middle 12 races) Ricciardo scored podiums in 9 races, took the same number of race wins a Vettel and outscored him in points. That's not even close to being off the pace.

The 3 races he failed to get a podium were Silverstone, where his car failed in qualifying and he started near the back (finishing 5th), Hungary, where his team mate crashed into him on the first lap, and in Monza where he took an engine penalty and finished 4th anyway.

Ocon was in his first full season in the series and new to the team yet was running Perez pretty close in the second half of the year. Perez probably lost some respect by racing his team mate harder than anyone else in the field.

Sainz caused some of the worst crashes in the first half of the season taking not only himself but other perfectly innocent others out of races. Canada was especially bad.

4) Ricciardo in #4 is probably too high over the course of the season - there was a patch in the middle where he was poorer than at least one of the drivers below him.

Which patch was this?

Between Spain and Japan (middle 12 races) Ricciardo scored podiums in 9 races, took the same number of race wins a Vettel and outscored him in points. That's not even close to being off the pace.

The 3 races he failed to get a podium were Silverstone, where his car failed in qualifying and he started near the back (finishing 5th), Hungary, where his team mate crashed into him on the first lap, and in Monza where he took an engine penalty and finished 4th anyway.

I'm guessing but it could be qualifying Exediron was thinking of. He lost 9-2 in that period (GB excluded) while the rest of the battle was 4-4 (China excluded). He did seem to struggle a bit in getting his tyres in the right place over 1 lap during that period.

Agree he was good in the races though throughout the year with only his starts at a couple of them being an issue.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Last edited by Lotus49 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

4) Ricciardo in #4 is probably too high over the course of the season - there was a patch in the middle where he was poorer than at least one of the drivers below him.

Which patch was this?

I'm guessing but it could be qualifying Exediron was thinking of. He lost 9-2 in that period (GB excluded) while the rest of the battle was 4-4 (China excluded). He did seem to struggle a bit in getting his tyres in the right place over 1 lap during that period.

As GingerFurball and I already discussed in a different thread, the mid-year was when I felt Verstappen really was outperforming Ricciardo and not getting the results to show it. Yes, Ricciardo was on the podium all the time, but it was during this part of the year that Max was always retiring ahead of him. I don't think Verstappen was necessarily better at the start or end of the year (with a few exceptions), but my feeling at the time and now was that Ricciardo struggled for pace in the middle of the year and was lucky to get those results.

Lotus49 wrote:

Dan vs Max in Qualifying by quarter

1st..3-2 to Dan2nd..5-1 to Max3rd..5-0 to Max4th..3-2 to Dan

Yeah, that would about follow my impression as well. Verstappen was consistently faster in the middle of the year, results notwithstanding. And this definitely does not come from a Verstappen fan.

You don't score points when your car is smoking by the side of the road, either. Verstappen was either ahead of Ricciardo or DNF'd for every single one of those mid-season podiums you mentioned except for Monaco.

But since points are all that's important, can we talk about how close Stroll ran Massa this year?

You don't but always being ahead when his car failed is what gave Max the narrative of usually being ahead while the 2 were running trouble free and obviously that influences not just what the team bosses think but the general impression on fans was the same.

I'm a Dan fan but its precisely that heavy quali defeat in the mid season that makes it so hard to argue Dan had the better season overall. If they only ever see you behind your team mate when you're both running there's not much you can say in defense.

If he'd managed to jump him a the start a few times and Max retired behind him it would have changed the picture quite a bit and the quali defeats mean less but he couldn't jump him and not only that but when he did outqualify him he himself got jumped in Russia,Bahrain and Japan which is basically half his quali victories overturned by T1.

Everything else was either very close or in favour of Dan but in Q3 and at the starts Max was clearly ahead I'm afraid and that set up the narrative of the season because it's a fact that Max was usually ahead of him.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

For Ricciardo, the race that really concerned me was Singapore. In practice and quali, the red bull were faster than Mercedes.

But in the race, even when it dried up he was not competitive. Hamilton built big leads over him three times, once in the first stint and then after two safety car interuptions.

He had a gearbox issue during the race and even when the track dried he couldn't attack the kerbs like they could in quali in case they were still wet.

The ability to take the kerbs better was the only reason it was faster in the first place so if you remove that and include a gearbox problem you can see why he struggled a bit.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Looks just like it does every year. Nonsensical. 10 very busy men probably spending 30 seconds to run through the first 10 that comes to mind. Perez beat the guy 5th on the list and doesn't even feature.

I can't help wondering what their basis for comparison is. Or how these people would define best and better. I think Flash2k11 is right in saying they view Kimi more sympathetically than some fans might, which I believe to be because they know, or believe they know, a few things for certain that never feature in reporters' articles. Not bringing the favoured driver's points tally into trouble definitely being the top "fact", in my mind at least.

Looks just like it does every year. Nonsensical. 10 very busy men probably spending 30 seconds to run through the first 10 that comes to mind. Perez beat the guy 5th on the list and doesn't even feature.

I can't help wondering what their basis for comparison is. Or how these people would define best and better. I think Flash2k11 is right in saying they view Kimi more sympathetically than some fans might, which I believe to be because they know, or believe they know, a few things for certain that never feature in reporters' articles. Not bringing the favoured driver's points tally into trouble definitely being the top "fact", in my mind at least.

But the list itself is barely good enough for a giggle.

What would YOUR list be then.?Or do you not believe in 'lists'?

Believing is not the word, but I do look at them, so I suppose I have to admit to being a bit curious about them. I think I'm less interested in the team principals' list, because there's no insight into how they arrive at their lists. Forum members offering their thoughts are more interesting to me.

I was impressed by Ocon this year, and by my countryman Stoffel. Max is obviously a good driver who still has lots to learn, but whether I find he should be put ahead of Daniel, I simply wouldn't know. There's one thing I do agree with the TPs on, and that's the inclusion of Räikkönen in the top 10. He's easily in my top 5, but I am obviously biased in his favour.Any list from me would probably raise a few more giggles here than the TPs' one did for me.

_________________Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.