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Bah... I am not even gonna start with my complaints. I will take what I get. I had a bit of talk with one of my very best friends who also had big hopes for Fate|Zero and he was like "Just watch it to see the fights animated - it's plenty fine as long as they do a good job with that. You got the 'epic' feeling and the subtle details from the LN already anyway." and that's pretty much where I stand now. That means that episodes that try to cram in characterization but rush through it end up making me feel "meh..." at best.

Kotomine has yet to discover for himself. You could say that, in a sense, Kiritsugu gives Kotomine a shred of hope that he too might be able to find something that gives him a sense of joy and purpose and fills his otherwise utterly empty and passionless soul.

And that emptiness of Kotomine is also the reason why Kiritsugu fears him in turn.(...)

I think it's not purely because Kotomine does not have any desire.

What I got about Kiritsugu(?) fearing him is that, Kotomine has nothing that interest him; he has no personality. (It's like Servants with Noble Phantasms, where the opponent can get some search for their strength and weaknesses if they knew the hero's NP; Kotomine has up to none.) And with the skills in his disposal. Kotomine is both unpredictable and dangerous opponent. In this mind game of Holy Grail War, the most formidable to fight against is the likes of Kotomine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I'm also starting to think maybe George Nakata isn't the best voice casting for Kotomine either. I mean I love the guy like nobodies business, but he can be pretty mono-syllabic in his delivery at times and I don't think he's the kind of guy that can carry a main character with lots of dialogue, but we'll see if things get more interesting with him going forward.

I think that is the point, so if people are thinking like that, he's very into the character.

What I got about Kiritsugu(?) fearing him is that, Kotomine has nothing that interest him; he has no personality.

Well yes, that's also what I meant when I said Kiritsugu fears Kotomine's inner emptiness. Unlike with the other Masters whom the information Kiritsugu gathered on them was enough for him to feel prepared to face them, Kiritsugu feels as if he's got nothing on Kotomine that could make a difference and give him the upper hand in a confrontation. People in general fear the unknown and thus try to learn as much as they can about unknown concepts, because by understanding something it might be possible to conquer one's fear of it. But there's nothing in Kotomine that would allow Kiritsugu to truly understand him and predict his course of action or motivations, and thus Kiritsugu can't help but fear him the most out of all his opponents. Like you said, he's far and away the most dangerous and unpredictable opponent in a conflict such as the Holy Grail War.

This engaging dynamic between them is why I can't wait for our two leads to come face to face, but I guess Kotomine's encounter with Maiya will have to suffice for now. Kotomine himself said as much, because albeit disappointing that he found her and not the man he was expecting, he was still to learn something about him in the process and thus get one step closer to knowing his answer.

I guess a lot of people at this point are having a hard time adjusting to the cast when Rider/Waver isn't on screen. They're "sterile" or "dead" and lack charisma in their eyes, but I think a lot of this may stem from a misinterpretation of the type of story Fate/Zero is considering that the only knowledge they may have of this franchise is the terrible, terrible DEEN F/S N anime adaption. And no, you may just not like it either way, but hopefully what I explain now gives a little insight into why I like Fate/Zero for what it is.

We've been told in this story that our two main characters or protagonists are Emiya Kiritsugu and Saber, and what's striking about the former in particular is just how cold, calculating, and perhaps cruel on the surface he may seem. He's been noted as a magus killer and someone who has actively gone on the battle field and thrown himself into danger countless times. He isn't a flamboyant personality and may even seem dead inside. This isn't without purpose though because if you consider his origins, he has little reason to feel all that much happiness about himself and would not be able to carry out his duties without being cruelly efficient in his task.

What we have seen so far in this story that breaks this cold shell of his are his few interactions with Irisviel and Illya at the beginning, which if people glossed over too much, are going to really hurt your viewing on his character later on. We got to see him as a bit of a playful father with Illya, we got to see the pain he feels about getting involved in a war when he has a child like her. We also get to see subtle moments like in this episode when he saw a child crying on her mother and Kiritsugu took that odd moment to look at them, an indication of them always being on his mind. This being of course after he just committed an act of terrorism pretty much.

Honestly if you are looking for that moral edge to jump on and root for Kiritsugu, it so far is not really all that present. He isn't at the moment an upstanding human being who is going to hold steadfast to his morals. Secondly, he isn't going to be overly expressive and have that sort of flamboyant personality you can't help find endearing. The interest in his character is ultimately going to stem from his view points, which hopefully get further expanded (Saving the world, etc.), and the way he approaches the moral dilemma of carrying out his duties in the war while balancing the love of his family. How did a man who found little reason to care about anything reach the point in his development that we were told of in F/S N? Well we are already seeing the first signs of why, and that is he found a place in his heart for love of his family.

Endless Twilight made a really great post earlier which highlights one of the most important aspects of Fate/Zero, and I'd like to quote him here:

Quote:

The first thing to note is that both Kiritsugu and Kotomine followed similar paths in the earlier portions of their lives; they were both executors/heretic hunters/magus killers. Both surrounded themselves with battle and conflict in a rather obsessive manner which would appear to be devoid of self-interest to most. But the difference between them is that Kiritsugu stopped following that path and seemingly had a change of heart, once he met the Einzberns. Kotomine, who still follows said path diligently despite it providing him with no sense of fulfilment whatsoever, presumes thus that that was when Kiritsugu found his "answer". Basically, that upon joining the Einzberns Kiritsugu found his place in the world, or, as Gilgamesh put it in this episode, the form of his soul, which Kotomine has yet to discover for himself. You could say that, in a sense, Kiritsugu gives Kotomine a shred of hope that he too might be able to find something that gives him a sense of joy and purpose and fills his otherwise utterly empty and passionless soul.

This is, for me at least, the most interesting character dynamic of the entire show. Two men looking for meaning in their life because they felt empty, people who followed similar paths of life which involved self-endangerment and terrible misdeeds, ultimately diverged, but for what reason? They were both the same, but are they also different? This is something we'll further explore in this story of course.

What this ultimately highlights is that Fate/Zero is not just about watching magical people battling with cool servants and magic, but it truly is a sort of character study. The battles and everything are cool and fun and all, but what truly backs up this story, at least for me, is these sorts of developments and paths we are shown and given for the characters in this war.

What this also shows is just how badly the F/S N anime expressed this side of itself to the audience as well. Anyone who read the VN can readily tell you that the anime was poor, mediocre, and incomparable to the VN in detail. There are many reasons for this of course, but the thing that most immediately comes to mind for me is just how poorly Shirou was developed. It is no surprise that he is a character that is constantly mocked for being a stupid, brainless protagonist because he is so ill explained, the tone of the story so off set from what the narrative really was all about, that it never truly rang home in the anime.

Now this is not the say that F/S N was exactly the same as Fate/Zero, they most certainly are not. F/S N was a bit nicer and friendlier to people with its colorful and charismatic cast. It was easier to get involved in its more on the surface elements and not really have to care about anything else. But Fate/Zero I believe expands and adds even more meaning to the side of the grail war that was all about the people, their dilemmas and their quests.

Because really, Shirou for example had every bit of important and as interesting of a moral/philosophical dilemma as Kiritsugu and Kotomine (It's also no surprise that Kotomine is the ultimate foil for Shirou in F/S N). Of course we had Saber's issues too, which also paralleled Shirou's in many ways and acted as a sort of mirror for him. But did we ever truly feel that the old F/S N anime was a sort of character study on any real level? To me it mostly came off as a generic wonder tale about boy enters magical world and fights evil to save the day... This is so counter to what the grail war essentially is.

Fate/Zero expresses this REALLY well. The Grail war is the culmination of the desires and motivations of 7 people and their 7 servants. Of course some of them don't really have anything all that deep about them, and some of them are just flat out crazy like a certain Caster in this show, but we have already seen so many different motivations form several different people. We have set up the quest of so many interesting personal quests.

So yeah, people can enjoy the more on the surface elements of Fate/Zero and there's nothing wrong with it, I enjoy them too, but there's certain elements at play throughout this story that truly define it for me in my eyes. People like Rider/Waver and Caster/Ryuonuske are fun, but at the same time, they are the most awfully shallow bunch of the entire cast. To me Rider is a cool person, but he's by no means a grounding force of enjoyment for me in this plot.

This is why I found this episode personally very interesting. None of Rider's scenes have truly ever reached the level of interest for me as the conversation between Gil and Kotomine in this episode. That's because for me, these sorts of conversations are the very meat of the entire story.

P.S. In many ways Kara no Kyoukai was very similar in tone/feeling to Fate/Zero.

I'm also starting to think maybe George Nakata isn't the best voice casting for Kotomine either. I mean I love the guy like nobodies business, but he can be pretty mono-syllabic in his delivery at times and I don't think he's the kind of guy that can carry a main character with lots of dialogue, but we'll see if things get more interesting with him going forward.

That's the whole point, Kotomine is a hollow human being, so that's how is supposed to be.

And I think that he did a very good job this episode. But as I said, I don't find Kiritsugu or Kirei boring or devoids of carisma at all, it just that it's not their character to stand as Iskandar, they are far more introspective and conflicted.

- The rivalry between Kiritsgu and Kotomine, two characters that the show desperately wants to convince us are idealistic opposites is so far one of the weakest I've seen in an anime like this in a while. I think this owes to both of them being about as dry as a log that's just spent an hour or two in a bonfire. As such I could not possibly be less interested in seeing their eventual squaring off right now if I tried. This should not be the case where the main protagonist and antagonist are easily the most boring characters in the show to me. This is a huge problem.

So would you prefer if the two characters constantly narrate their thought? Because that's how most of their development came up in the novel.

I really felt that most of the important element are what the character thinks at the moment in the novel. (None of them are talkative people in the first place and professional killers make it a habit of not speaking much) This is the main fault with any adaptation of books, considering how incredibly rare is it to have a film constantly narrating the character's thoughts.

I guess a lot of people at this point are having a hard time adjusting to the cast when Rider/Waver isn't on screen. They're "sterile" or "dead" and lack charisma in their eyes, but I think a lot of this may stem from a misinterpretation of the type of story Fate/Zero is considering that the only knowledge they may have of this franchise is the terrible, terrible DEEN F/S N anime adaption. And no, you may just not like it either way, but hopefully what I explain now gives a little insight into why I like Fate/Zero for what it is.

We've been told in this story that our two main characters or protagonists are Emiya Kiritsugu and Saber, and what's striking about the former in particular is just how cold, calculating, and perhaps cruel on the surface he may seem. He's been noted as a magus killer and someone who has actively gone on the battle field and thrown himself into danger countless times. He isn't a flamboyant personality and may even seem dead inside. This isn't without purpose though because if you consider his origins, he has little reason to feel all that much happiness about himself and would not be able to carry out his duties without being cruelly efficient in his task.

What we have seen so far in this story that breaks this cold shell of his are his few interactions with Irisviel and Illya at the beginning, which if people glossed over too much, are going to really hurt your viewing on his character later on. We got to see him as a bit of a playful father with Illya, we got to see the pain he feels about getting involved in a war when he has a child like her. We also get to see subtle moments like in this episode when he saw a child crying on her mother and Kiritsugu took that odd moment to look at them, an indication of them always being on his mind. This being of course after he just committed an act of terrorism pretty much.

Honestly if you are looking for that moral edge to jump on and root for Kiritsugu, it so far is not really all that present. He isn't at the moment an upstanding human being who is going to hold steadfast to his morals. Secondly, he isn't going to be overly expressive and have that sort of flamboyant personality you can't help find endearing. The interest in his character is ultimately going to stem from his view points, which hopefully get further expanded (Saving the world, etc.), and the way he approaches the moral dilemma of carrying out his duties in the war while balancing the love of his family. How did a man who found little reason to care about anything reach the point in his development that we were told of in F/S N? Well we are already seeing the first signs of why, and that is he found a place in his heart for love of his family.

Endless Twilight made a really great post earlier which highlights one of the most important aspects of Fate/Zero, and I'd like to quote him here:

This is, for me at least, the most interesting character dynamic of the entire show. Two men looking for meaning in their life because they felt empty, people who followed similar paths of life which involved self-endangerment and terrible misdeeds, ultimately diverged, but for what reason? They were both the same, but are they also different? This is something we'll further explore in this story of course.

What this ultimately highlights is that Fate/Zero is not just about watching magical people battling with cool servants and magic, but it truly is a sort of character study. The battles and everything are cool and fun and all, but what truly backs up this story, at least for me, is these sorts of developments and paths we are shown and given for the characters in this war.

What this also shows is just how badly the F/S N anime expressed this side of itself to the audience as well. Anyone who read the VN can readily tell you that the anime was poor, mediocre, and incomparable to the VN in detail. There are many reasons for this of course, but the thing that most immediately comes to mind for me is just how poorly Shirou was developed. It is no surprise that he is a character that is constantly mocked for being a stupid, brainless protagonist because he is so ill explained, the tone of the story so off set from what the narrative really was all about, that it never truly rang home in the anime.

Now this is not the say that F/S N was exactly the same as Fate/Zero, they most certainly are not. F/S N was a bit nicer and friendlier to people with its colorful and charismatic cast. It was easier to get involved in its more on the surface elements and not really have to care about anything else. But Fate/Zero I believe expands and adds even more meaning to the side of the grail war that was all about the people, their dilemmas and their quests.

Because really, Shirou for example had every bit of important and as interesting of a moral/philosophical dilemma as Kiritsugu and Kotomine (It's also no surprise that Kotomine is the ultimate foil for Shirou in F/S N). Of course we had Saber's issues too, which also paralleled Shirou's in many ways and acted as a sort of mirror for him. But did we ever truly feel that the old F/S N anime was a sort of character study on any real level? To me it mostly came off as a generic wonder tale about boy enters magical world and fights evil to save the day... This is so counter to what the grail war essentially is.

Fate/Zero expresses this REALLY well. The Grail war is the culmination of the desires and motivations of 7 people and their 7 servants. Of course some of them don't really have anything all that deep about them, and some of them are just flat out crazy like a certain Caster in this show, but we have already seen so many different motivations form several different people. We have set up the quest of so many interesting personal quests.

So yeah, people can enjoy the more on the surface elements of Fate/Zero and there's nothing wrong with it, I enjoy them too, but there's certain elements at play throughout this story that truly define it for me in my eyes. People like Rider/Waver and Caster/Ryuonuske are fun, but at the same time, they are the most awfully shallow bunch of the entire cast. To me Rider is a cool person, but he's by no means a grounding force of enjoyment for me in this plot.

This is why I found this episode personally very interesting. None of Rider's scenes have truly ever reached the level of interest for me as the conversation between Gil and Kotomine in this episode. That's because for me, these sorts of conversations are the very meat of the entire story.

P.S. In many ways Kara no Kyoukai was very similar in tone/feeling to Fate/Zero.

Thank you for defending the real merit of this show. Kirei and Kiritsugu are by far more interesting characters than Rider, Caster, or their respective masters.

Thank you, Reckoner and Endless Twilight, for explaining some of the appeal behind the style of storytelling that Fate/Zero is presenting and it will be helpful for some of us to look for these things. I may not agree with some of these preferences, but it sure helps.

I am glad you can rise above the fanboy mentality of defending everything to the death without explaining anything to the point of elitism or making ignorant stereotypes, judging people's preferences by making assumptions extrapolated based on one anime episode. Because as you know, the better you can express something, the stronger the reason others will take you seriously.

Yeah... I was about to say Nanoha, cause she was the best of the best in dungeon bypassing.

__________________

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!

Yeah, I know adaptions can't be perfect --- but I really wish they did something with Kirei and Kiritsugu's internal thoughts.

There's a severe lack of characterization in comparison to the novel that I'm finding a bit crippling. Not gonna lie, Kirei is one of my favorite characters in the novel (I only found Kariya better) but he's utterly fucking boring here. What's worse, I know he's not.

I don't really care for Kiritsugu's character, but I doubt the later scenes with him especially are going to have the impact they should at this rate.

Bah... I am not even gonna start with my complaints. I will take what I get. I had a bit of talk with one of my very best friends who also had big hopes for Fate|Zero and he was like "Just watch it to see the fights animated - it's plenty fine as long as they do a good job with that. You got the 'epic' feeling and the subtle details from the LN already anyway." and that's pretty much where I stand now. That means that episodes that try to cram in characterization but rush through it end up making me feel "meh..." at best.

7/10, still pretty good though, definitely.

this. I get the impression this anime is mostly directed either at people who have already read the novels, or is made to make people interested in reading the novels...