In the comment thread for Recognizing the Real Relationship Deal, readers got into a discussion about whether men like a little spirit, feistiness or pushback from their women. There was an interesting array of responses – some guys enjoy the dynamic of some resistance in a relationship, and may even get bored without it. Other guys have zero interest in being with a woman who makes things “difficult.” Reader Dogsquat said something that I’ve been thinking about the last few days.

Nobody wants a puppy that follows you around all day. Nobody likes a bitch who’s “always right, even when I’m not” either.

There is a good balance to be found in girls with a mission outside of their relationship.

In the past I’ve said that when you want a relationship, you have to pursue that goal like it’s your job. Thinking about it more, I don’t think relationship status is the right goal. It’s not an objective with measurable, incremental steps, so it’s impossible to gauge whether you’re any closer to your goal from one month or year to the next. So many factors affect the outcome, some of which are out of your control. Your age, your social environment, your work environment, even the economy can have a large effect.

Of course, there are several factors that are within your direct control, and that’s where you should focus your strategy. What are your expectations? Are you selecting the most relationship-worthy men? Do you take the initiative to actively communicate your interest to guys you like, via flirting or attentiveness? All of this is an important part of paving the way to a meaningful relationship, but your results will be only as good as you are.

What do you have to offer? If you want a man to commit to you, you must be someone who is worthy of commitment. If he takes himself off the market, he is sacrificing the potential (or reality) of sexual variety. The harder you work on becoming an attractive and interesting person of good character, the better your chances of getting an excellent man to commit to you.

Be Attractive

You were born with a set of physical traits. That’s your basic canvas, and there is much you can do to brighten and enhance your appearance. Female beauty is really the array of fertility cues that men seek in a mate. They signal a woman’s reproductive capacity. A female mate’s attractiveness also has the potential to increase a male’s status among other males. According to evolutionary psychologists, here is what men look for when evaluating a woman’s attractiveness:

Youth (2.5 years younger is the age difference most preferred by males.)

Full lips

Clear, smooth skin

Clear eyes

Lustrous hair (much easier to assess when hair is long)

Good muscle tone

Body type: This varies by culture to some extent, but the ratio of waist size to hip size is one preference that is invariant. Healthy, reproductive women have a ratio between .67 and .80. The ratio is also an accurate indication of long-term health status.

There are also behavioral cues to youth and health that males prefer:

Bouncy, youthful gait

Animated facial expression

High energy level

Together, these traits comprise the ingredients of male standards for female beauty. Makeup, grooming and clothing are all designed to enhance male perception of these traits. Clownish, excessive makeup or immodest clothing detract from the male perception that a woman is a good long-term partner. Use only as much enhancement as you need to maximize your natural attributes.

Be a Person of Good Character

First and foremost, when seeking a long-term partner, be aware of the prevalence and immutability of the sexual double standard:

With the concealed ovulation of humans, men who married benefited by having greater reassurance of paternity. Before marrying men would need to feel assured that his wife would remain sexually faithful. Two preferences in a mate that could predict her faithfulness were premarital chastity and the quest for postmarital sexual loyalty. For this reason, “faithfulness and sexual loyalty” is the number one desirability trait (of 67) that American men prioritize for commitment. (Buss, 1994)

In other words, don’t be a slut. It dramatically reduces the number of guys who will consider you relationship material, much less marriage material.

In addition, all of us seek partners who are companionable. Here are the traits males generally seek in females when contemplating commitment (in no particular order):

Charm

Athleticism

Education

Generosity

Honesty

Independence

Kindness

Intellectuality

Loyalty

Sense of humor

Sociability

Wealth

Responsibility

Spontaneity

Cooperativeness

Emotional stability

Please note that the following traits are not on the list:

Hard to get

Narcissism

Vanity

Unreliability

Unpredictability

Loves to shop

Spendthrift

Greed

Impatience

Inspires jealousy

Sarcastic

Volatile

Fickle

Boastful

Alcoholic

Attention seeker

Reality show addict

Yes, annoying psycho bitches do get guys. That doesn’t mean it’s a good strategy, as it is certain to shrink your pool of potential mates, and also decrease its quality. It’s worth spending some time thinking about these lists. We all have our faults, but I’ve known several young women whose personalities are defined by the second list. Don’t be that girl. Nobody will tolerate you, much less want you.

Know and Develop Your Purpose(s) in Life

This is something that is often overlooked. It speaks to Dogsquat’s comment about women who have a mission outside their relationship. You may be super passionate about one thing. If you are, you’re lucky. I always have had a bunch of different things I wanted to do and explore, which led to a lot of dabbling and perhaps less achievement. That doesn’t matter. It’s not about achievement in the world – men don’t care much about that when selecting a mate. (Of course, you might, which is fine, just know that it is not a male attraction cue.)

What’s important is how you feel about yourself, and whether that opinion is justified, or just narcissism. If you are truly worthy of your own respect, others will share it too.

We live in a time when Americans are raised to work extremely long hours, take minimal time off and juggle the responsibilities of work and family. It’s easy to lose one’s sense of purpose and growth, and with it all the curiosity that makes you a person who’s open to learning and engaging with the world around you.

I’m guilty of this myself. I used to be a real news junkie. I read several newspapers, always listened to NPR in the car, always watched CNN at the gym, and sat down for the evening news before starting dinner each night. Around a year ago, feeling pressured for time, I decided to give it up. No more news. I listened to books on tape in the car and at the gym. I took to having my morning coffee while checking blog comments. I delayed starting dinner till 7, working through the extra hour.

For quite a while, I could get by in conversations with my husband, friends and acquaintances, just going on the base of knowledge I’d already built up. Increasingly, I needed to use my husband as my source of news – rather than discuss things with him, I needed for him to tell me what was happening in the world. Finally, I became ignorant about almost everything.

Alito…Obamacare….June decision, What?

Trayvon Martin, Who?

I now find myself almost completely unable to converse intelligently about what’s happening in the world. During family dinners I am relegated to silence. My kids ask if anything is wrong. How could I let this happen? I’m boring!

This is just one small example, and easy to remedy – I can probably get up to speed in a couple of weeks of reading the paper. But it’s an illustration of how one can become a total dullard just by stopping paying attention and closing oneself off.

To arouse someone’s interest for the long haul, you need to be an interesting person. Do things. Learn stuff. Get out and meet new people. Have a mission in life.

1. Maximize your physical appeal.

2. Develop good character traits.

3. Pursue your passions.

Do these three things like they’re your job, because if you want to marry and have a family, they are.

Source: The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating, David M. Buss, 1994.

Straightforward and candid. It’s especially helpful that it’s framed in a “become a better you” mindset.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Good list, Susan.

Don’t forget that men value emotional connection, femininity and a little vulnerability. I believe this was being discussed in another conversation, but a small bit of co-dependence is good for marriage.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Hope

Don’t forget that men value emotional connection, femininity and a little vulnerability.

Good point. Just to be clear, the list is David Buss’, not mine. It’s the female equivalent of the list I posted earlier about what women seek in a long-term mate.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

I believe this was being discussed in another conversation, but a small bit of co-dependence is good for marriage.

Woohooo that make us four. Co-dependence FTW!

Rico

Let me add one to the “undesirable trait” list – being over-competitive. Wanting to win is fine. Pouting because you lost/playing for blood is not.

Jonny

Women can treat all men nicely, even to those they are not interested. My female cousin treats everyone nice. No wonder everyone loves her. It doesn’t hurt that she is extremely attractive. She doesn’t make you feel like a nobody. I noticed that plain women tend to have personalities that are most unpleasant. They have a chip on their shoulder. They feel defensive. They don’t engage, yet they have pitty parties and don’t realize how foul they are. To unattractive women, you need to work on your personalities. Don’t be ugly on the inside to match your outside.

http://thevainyogi.wordpress.com The Vain Yogi

I like your lists. I would hesitate to add education, independence and intellectuality to the list of traits that attract men towards commitment. These three can lead to pride in a woman reducing her charm and amiability.
Education and intellectuality imply college education that typically inculcates leftist leanings and turns most women into entitlement princesses. How about replacing it with intelligent? It implies the ability to use one’s mind without regurgitating college and media talking points.
As for independence if a woman is seeking a man’s commitment, then she is admitting that she no longer wants to go it alone which implies that she does not want to be independent anymore. For a man’s part, if he is offering commitment, that is, offering to share his resources with her, and she continues to want to be considered independent, well, there seems a contradiction here. I think you may be wanting to imply a trait that speaks to strength, so how about replacing independence with patience?
As for pursuing one’s passions, if the passions align with the man’s then it could work provided there are no feelings of competitiveness. If not, then it can very easily pull the budding relationship apart. It is probably better to develop a passion for something that he is passionate about once in a relationship. Now it can act as glue and accelerator.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Vain Yogi

I like your lists. I would hesitate to add education, independence and intellectuality to the list of traits that attract men towards commitment. These three can lead to pride in a woman reducing her charm and amiability.

In that case, it’s pride that is the problem. That would be a good addition to the “what men don’t like” list (which is the only one I made up). Vanity comes close.

Education and intellectuality imply college education that typically inculcates leftist leanings and turns most women into entitlement princesses.

Why do you say that? I think young people are more idealistic and tend to be liberal in general. (See Winston Churchill quote.) I do think many women are entitlement princesses, but I’ve never considered college one of the causes.

As for independence if a woman is seeking a man’s commitment, then she is admitting that she no longer wants to go it alone which implies that she does not want to be independent anymore.

There are many forms of independence. As someone who’s been married for 27 years, I would describe myself as an independent thinker, for example. I am capable of caring for myself and supporting myself if necessary. I can survive without a man, though I don’t prefer it.

As for pursuing one’s passions, if the passions align with the man’s then it could work provided there are no feelings of competitiveness.

Why would my passions need to align with a man’s? I can see a problem if something I was passionate about was objectionable to my husband – that would be a compatibility issue. But my husband has passions that don’t align with mine, e.g. American history, and I have passions that don’t align with his, e.g. 19th c. British literature. If we did share a passion, I can’t imagine why we would have to compete. Even if we were aiming for the Senior Olympics, we wouldn’t be in direct competition. 😛

Dogsquat

Susan, I am honored.

I’m also wondering what it feels like to quote a guy named “Dogsquat” in an article that will be read by many thousands of people.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I’m also wondering what it feels like to quote a guy named “Dogsquat” in an article that will be read by many thousands of people.

I confess there was a moment of hesitation, but what the hell.

Iggles

This is a great list Susan.

On a side note, I used to be a news junkie as well. Always following politics, even volunteering back in high school and college. About a year or so again I realized watching the Nightly News was depressing me. I live in NYC and most of the hour is dedicated to tragedies, murders, scandals, scams, etc. I stopped watching and found my quality of life has improved. I do kind of use family and friends are “news sources” but in the Era of Facebook it’s easy to keep in the loop concerning major stories. I don’t miss politics at all. The way I see it the Mayor’s race affects myself my life way more than the latest squabble between republicans and democrats in Congress..

Odds

Loyalty. That’s #1 if a girl wants to be relationship material. It’s so hard to find that I suspect the desire to inculcate this trait in one’s wife is half of the basis for relationship game (the other half being more and better sex). I know more than a few guys who have simply decided that women are not naturally loyal, or even capable of loyalty, so they don’t bother to worry about it. Needless to say, those guys don’t date any one girl for a long time.

And when I say loyalty, I mean the real kind. The kind where you’re on his side even when you know he’s wrong – even when HE knows he’s wrong. The kind that is not conditional on whether he’s the best option in the world – where Johnny Depp could hit on you in a bar, and you’d hang on your boyfriend’s arm to indicate that you’re taken.

Obviously, getting that loyal too quickly is psychotic, but you have to figure out a way to show that you have the potential for that sort of loyalty to be built up. Loyalty is the anti-hypergamy.

Ted D

Odds – “Loyalty is the anti-hypergamy.”

I’d wear that on a t-shirt if I thought Just one person would get it.

Lokland

@Susan

Like it all.
One question, whats a spendthrift? I’ve never heard that expression.

@OTC

+1

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Spendthrift: A person who spends money in an extravagant, irresponsible way.

http://chuckthisblog.wordpress.com Joe

Odds, that’s not bad.

But the older I get the more I desire to be respected, especially by those on whom I rely. Respect is very hard to show, I understand, and it’s easily lost. So little reminders from my wife that show she still has some respect for what I do, what I say and who I am are treasures.

It goes without saying that those shows of respect are easier to come by when you have respect for others in return.

Shirley Fai

Purpose in life is very important and we, should set our goals so that we know how to run our life and we have a purpose in this world…

Lokland

@Susan

Okay, now I’ll concur 100%. I originally thought it meant the exact opposite of that.

J

but a small bit of co-dependence is good for marriage.

Co-dependence or inter-dependence?

Charm

Bouncy, youthful gait
Animated facial expression
High energy level

To me, this describes someone who is “bubbly”. I am not nor will I ever be “bubbly”. I find, the only time I am animated in facial expression (and I hold the gold for facial expression) is when Im around people who I like. The only time I have high energy level, is when Im around people I like. I compartmentalize alot, so its literally day and night between people who are close to me and people who are stranger. Im sure initially I give off a very standoffish vibe.

Doc

One of the things that never ceases to amaze me is how women pork up as they get older. I have known very few women who can’t stand to lose at least 20 lbs, and many a lot more. Of course most men fall into that category as well, but I couldn’t care less – all that means to me is less competition for the attractive women out there.
Too many women want to shove that potato in their mouth, more than they want a man in… “there life” ( I would have put something else there but let’s just go with that.)
Losing that extra lard is the single best thing a woman can to do increase her appearance and attractiveness, of course dressing well, good hygiene, etc… (and ladies – I have enough hair on my body for the both of us, so leave it on your head and get rid of it pretty much everywhere else although sometimes a trim goes a long way in other areas).
Then learn the art of flirting – it’s a lost art among women today – other than the very young who do it naturally – emulate them, and you’ll have a lot fuller calendar.
Or, keep doing what you are – you know how well that’s working for you…

These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.

Good Luck Chuck

It’s a sad state of affairs when grown women have to be taught that the secret to attracting a man is to be…….*gasp!*…….. feminine.

Dogsquat

Jonny, your genetic line is doomed when decent sex-bots become available, isn’t it?

Charm

@Jonny

Lol, what? Thats the silliest thing I’ve ever read. What are you 12?

Jonny

@Charm: Would it make you feel better if I say I am?

Charm

@Jonny

Actually, it would. Saying you were an adult would scare the shit out of me.

Odds

Ignore Johnny. Granted, given the choice between a know-it-all (or worse, a thinks-she-knows-it-all) and an ignoramus, I’ll go with the latter, but the dumb and uniformed act still gets old really fast. Just be humble with your knowledge.

If it helps, imagine the guy who seemingly knows everything, but since he doesn’t brag, you don’t even know it until the situation where it’s useful comes up – like the guy who knows engines, but you don’t learn until you have car trouble. How much cooler is that guy than the one who frequently mentions his skills? For once, the standard runs the same both ways.

INTJ

I’ve been reading this site for a while, and I’m finally making a comment.

As a male, I certainly look for these traits (well I don’t care as much about Charm, Wealth, or Spontaneity, but that’s just a minor preference).

However, while these traits SHOULD be desirable, are you sure that most men actually look for these traits?

Most women look for exciting alpha men rather than stable beta men (even for long term relationships), and I’m wondering wether a similar thing is the case with men and women?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

However, while these traits SHOULD be desirable, are you sure that most men actually look for these traits?

This list of traits is from the field of evolutionary psychology. This is what they have determined men are “wired” to look for. As always, human beings are on a spectrum, and there are an infinite number of combinations that may appeal to one man for long-term mating. It’s not the case that every man will prioritize every trait or that women will strike out if they can’t check every box on the list.

also intj

And as an INTJ woman, I’d take the stable beta guy every time.

My guess is that there are more women like me than you would think.

Charm

imagine the guy who seemingly knows everything, but since he doesn’t brag, you don’t even know it until the situation where it’s useful comes up

Man or woman, this is the coolest thing in the damn world. I love people who are super humble about what they know. I take this approach to life. I never divulge skill that I’ve perfected until its needed. I find that people are always very pleasantly surprised when they learn something new about you and are quite impressed. There is this kid of my facebook who has to keep us informed about all the great and amazing things he is doing with his life. Needless to say, I hate him.

@INTJ

Yaaaaaaay, another NTJ. Hi

And I agree, I think a lot of people don’t look for all of those things. Most people generally have a preference on the ones that really matter. No one person possesses all of them so its important to cherry pick the few that you can’t do without. I agree with you one Charm, Wealth and spontaneity. I actually like men that are a big asocial and dont care to impress other people. I also like men who plan things out before executing said plan and surprising me. Too much spontaneity is unattractive and destructive and as long as you have enough money to live and have a decent savings…its all good.

Charm

a bit asocial*

Charm

@Also intj

I think its an NTJ trait to be very stable thus boring. All the wild things that other people do just seem stupid to me. And “alphas” are generally laughable.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Man or woman, this is the coolest thing in the damn world. I love people who are super humble about what they know.

Likewise is always nice to discover something new once in a while and I also think is better to let things come out naturally and if you have a lot of skills is better if someone else points it out than you prancing your own drum as soon as the opportunity arrives, YMMV.

J

@Charm

And “alphas” are generally laughable.

I’m an INTP; DH is an INTJ. We love to watch people and smirk at “alphas.”

Vox Day says that the only men who intimidate alphas are sigmas because sigmas don’t kowtow. Much like the noble honey badger, they don’t give a damn. I’ve seen my DH (and now my younger son) destroy these guys with a smile.

Jonny

“Here are the traits males generally seek in females when contemplating commitment”

Men have their lists, but they are general outlines, not set in stone. A negative can invalidate the whole list. Its funny since women might have red flags that they constantly downplay until it couldn’t be ignored anymore. Men will quickly relegate a mismatch by putting her in the friendzone without telling her. She becomes a booty call if he is lucky or he just doesn’t call anymore.

Thus, women should do the right things upfront and not be so difficult.

Here is my critique of the list.

Charm – Sensual to me, friendly to everyone else, accomodating to parents.
Athleticism – Not Fat.
Education – You’re finished? If not, I’m not funding your future education.
Generosity – Only to me. Not to stray cats.
Honesty – Always.
Independence – Except you depend on me.
Kindness – Always.
Intellectuality – Not smart ass.
Loyalty – Always
Sense of humor – Not sarcastic, Never inappropriate, Never while drunk.
Sociability – Don’t go too far or out of your way to strangers, and especially to cats.
Wealth – Let’s hope you will not ask Daddy to bail us out.
Responsibility – To us first.
Spontaneity – On occassion. Know when to say NO.
Cooperativeness – See Spontaneity.
Emotional stability – Not psycho. Will not seek other men or tell everything to girlfriends.

Chris_in_CA

@Charm

“I think its an NTJ trait to be very stable thus boring. All the wild things that other people do just seem stupid to me.”

No argument here, from a male INTJ. I suppose “stable thus boring” would describe some of my days. It suits me however.

Charm

@J

Oh yea, this is what I love about NTJ men. They give not one fuck about what you think about them. Generally “alphas” do. They want to be AMOG, and get the attention from the best girls and have everyone fawning all over them. I actually prefer Vox’s sigma to he alpha. Nothing is more attractive than a man who knows who he is and doesn’t care if he is validated or accepted by other people.

Once an “alpha” realizes you aren’t amusing or impressed by them, they generally lose all power over you. Whenever I read about all these guys bragging about how all the girls at the place were all over them and how they can “fuck anyone they want” I lol on the inside because I know, there is that one woman who laughed at them and refused to give them the time of day, or that one guy who let them be the AMOG because he knew his ego depended on it. I think alpha is about wanting to be accepted while sigma isn’t.

also intj

I tend to equate stable with dependable, not boring.

Charm

@Chris

Me too. But thing is, I don’t see it as boring. Give me a couple drinks and some good people for conversation, and I can have a great time. Beats a bar, club or party any day. Give me a new topic to learn about or a new skill to develop and I’ll have a good old time. Give me one person who understand who I am fully and who loves me deeply and Ill be happy for the rest of my life. I’d never even notice other men. You know NTJs have a habit of marrying other NTJs or at least other NTs? Over the last few days I’ve been doing some reading and apparently, being extremely loyal and commitment oriented is something that the majority of NTJs do since they don’t like to invest any of their time and/or energy into just anybody. I laughed because my time is the most important thing to me, so if Im spending it on you, you’re probably a huge deal.

Charm

I tend to equate stable with dependable, not boring.

Oh yea. If you don’t have my back, and you’re not there when I need you, we could NEVER date. I don’t see how women keep pining for men who ignore them half the time or don’t show up when they say they will, or are unreliable and will break commitments easily. How the hell is being dependable and stable a fucking beta trait? Thats the best human trait.

Chris_in_CA

@Charm

“Give me a couple drinks and some good people for conversation, and I can have a great time. Beats a bar, club or party any day. Give me a new topic to learn about or a new skill to develop and I’ll have a good old time.”

Okay, I know my sisters aren’t NTs; I’m the only INTJ in my family. But you sound like you could be another sister!

“You know NTJs have a habit of marrying other NTJs or at least other NTs? Over the last few days I’ve been doing some reading and apparently, being extremely loyal and commitment oriented is something that the majority of NTJs do since they don’t like to invest any of their time and/or energy into just anybody.”

Not wanting to invest time/energy into anything they don’t like is very much an across-the-board NTJ trait. It’s gotten me into a few awkward situations in fact, since I see no value in frivolous social interactions which don’t have any meaningful purpose.

also intj

Which is why the NTJ is so hard to find.

Jonny

“Which is why the NTJ is so hard to find.

Huh? They are the ones standing in the corner.

Charm

Which is why the NTJ is so hard to find.

Tell me about it. Sheesh. Ive met 2 ENTPs and an INTP but never an INTJ or another ENTJ. I actually don’t prefer perceivers. I like cold hard fast NTJ logic. Plus they generally understand the judgmental-ness.

@Chris

Well at least you’ve got someone people in your life you get along with.

I used to actually put my time into people thinking I’d get something out of it, but then I realized that most people are just selfish asshole and have no problem taking what it is that I am offering. Since then I’ve maintained my selectivity with friends and people I spend my time on. Not one second will be wasted on anyone else.

Jonny

@Charm, you don’t sound so charming.

Just because you might need a dependable INTJ doesn’t mean he can’t be charmed. A guy can be reliable, but if he doesn’t know you, he has no obligation to be there for you.

It sounds to me like this is an issue of complaining (again) about not having good men out there when the women are so charmless (unattractive). INTJ dating INTJ. Sounds like an antisocial gathering. So funny if not so sad.

INTJ

@also intj, Charm, Chris_in_CA

Wow! It never ceases to amaze me how much other NTJs think like I do. Reliability and loyalty are probably the single most important character trait I’m looking for.

@Jonny

The problem is that we aren’t the only ones standing in the corner. There’s also people like ISFPs and INFPs who often have emotional stability issues (I risk overgeneralizing here, but I’m just tired of seeing all these fickle-minded people around me).

Interestingly, you’d rarely find me standing in the corner because I wouldn’t bother going to some event where I’d have to stand in a corner.

GudEnuf

Susan, reading that story of how you stopped paying attention to politics, I thought you were going to end the story with “it was hard work, but I finally quit my news addiction and became happier person.”

I have purposely tried to reduce my news intake. In particular, I have cut out the instant news: twitter, websites, television, radio. I rely more on The Economist and Wikipedia, because these sources tend to provide a broader context instead of focusing on the up-to-the-minute details. By definition, the values of news decays rapidly, so in the long run you’re better off reading a history book than a newspaper.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@GudEnuf

By definition, the values of news decays rapidly, so in the long run you’re better off reading a history book than a newspaper.

Except that in my life, people tend to discuss news events with some enthusiasm. If I know nothing about it, I’m relegated to bystander status. I don’t plan to go all-in and be obsessive the way I was before. But I feel stupid having lost any sense of what’s going on in the world around me. Some of it is actually important.

GudEnuf

Charm: I took the test and got an INTJ, though I don’t put much stock in the results.

However I do feel you on the need to find a logical partner.

FeralEmployee

INTJ here as well. It’s not that I’m antisocial, but I am a very reserved person. You would find me standing in the corner at a young age, but once into adulthood, I’ve adapted behavior that would make me either blend into the crowd or in the right scenario, take the lead.

I prefer to be among like-minded people as well. I don’t get this ENFP-INTJ matching going on. Opposites may attract, but leave me out of it.

VD

To me, this describes someone who is “bubbly”. I am not nor will I ever be “bubbly”. I find, the only time I am animated in facial expression (and I hold the gold for facial expression) is when Im around people who I like. The only time I have high energy level, is when Im around people I like. I compartmentalize alot, so its literally day and night between people who are close to me and people who are stranger. Im sure initially I give off a very standoffish vibe.

Then obviously those three attributes must not be what men find attractive, if they mean that your special snowflake self is not the mostest prettiest princess on the planet. Seriously, who on Earth is supposed to care if you are bubbly or not? I think you can safely add “solipsistic” to your list of attributes.

These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.

Again, who do you think cares? You present such an annoyingly self-obsessed image over the Internet that it’s hard to imagine what circle of hell it must be like having to deal with you in person on a daily basis. And as for sarcasm, only immature and juvenile men think it is witty or attractive. It rapidly becomes predictable and tiresome. I know people who absolutely love puns too. That’s not attractive either. It’s incredibly annoying.

And by the way, I’m INTJ. So, if you like hard, cold, and judgmental logic, you might want to rethink your solipsistic approach, because based on what you’ve displayed here, no INTJ would want to put up with your level of narcissism. INTJs generally like to discuss ideas, not people, and especially not people whose only serious interest is themselves. I’m not saying that is the case with you, but it is certainly the image you convey.

Juliette Ayot

Liked the list and the way how a woman should look pretty. It is easy for attractive gals to seduce men but for those who really work hard to be most pretty and beautiful, these tips are of great use. I gonna tell about this to my sis who is always look forward to be beautiful and attractive.

Jason

Susan,

This blog is becoming more and more a feminist echo chamber. Perhaps you should put on your big girl panties and have a complete conversational spectrum again? The comment threads have become quite painful to read.

Susan, is this the first time that you have focused on this? I mean, I know that you have made tons of references to things like, “Don’t waste the pretty”, but, I don’t remember you ever being so explicit in saying, “Be as pretty as you can be”.

1. Youth (2.5 years younger is the age difference most preferred by males.)
2. Full lips
3. Clear, smooth skin
…

Perky Tits?
Flat Belly?
Tight Ass?

None of these made the list?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

I didn’t write the list. It’s the product of evo psych research. I put the source at the bottom, I guess no one is noticing it. I think your priorities would be included under body type and muscle tone.

I have written about this before, actually, but it’s been a while. Seemed like a good time to drive the point home again.

Ramble

I put the source at the bottom …

OK. I didn’t know if that was for everything you listed, or just the things that preceded the source.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Charm – “These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.”

Seriously, you and I are like long lost twins separated at birth, and by a few decades, and different sexes…

Stick to the sarcasm, my SO loves it, although she often calls me a jerk for it as well. 😛

Of course you don’t play hard to get, you don’t have to. I know that *I* am a real PITA to “win over”, and to be honest anytime someone tries to do so, it turns me away from them anyway…

“I think its an NTJ trait to be very stable thus boring. All the wild things that other people do just seem stupid to me. And “alphas” are generally laughable.”

EXACTLY! And wow, we have more INTJ’s here? I think we have quite a good collection of them now.

“ I laughed because my time is the most important thing to me, so if Im spending it on you, you’re probably a huge deal.”

YES THIS! This is exactly why I don’t bother with most people. Most of the time I end up disappointed and a bit miffed I wasted my time. But so many people will blab at anyone, they don’t realize that if I’m spending ANY time on them at all, they’ve cleared about 10 miles of hurdles with me already.

J – “Vox Day says that the only men who intimidate alphas are sigmas because sigmas don’t kowtow.”

I have NO clue what a ‘sigma’ is, but IME assholes definitely don’t like it when someone doesn’t back down from their huffing and puffing. It takes a LOT to impress me, and maybe even more to intimidate me, but I generally don’t push back on assholean behavior. Instead, I usually just stand my ground and wait for them to treat me better before I’ll even acknowledge them. Or, if they REALLY insist on blowing hot air my way, I simply tell them that I won’t deal with someone that can’t treat me with a minimum level of respect. It’s funny, because it either sends them away steaming, or completely deflates their sails. Either way, I don’t have to deal with assholean behavior. 😀

Chris – “Not wanting to invest time/energy into anything they don’t like is very much an across-the-board NTJ trait. It’s gotten me into a few awkward situations in fact, since I see no value in frivolous social interactions which don’t have any meaningful purpose”

Heh, well it is this reason that I graduated HS with a pretty piss-poor GPA. I was bored with school by 10th grade, and by my senior year I decided I didn’t give a shit at all, and it showed. As far as people go? I know I’ve pissed people off by blowing them off, not paying attention, etc. But to be honest, I never lost a single night of sleep over it. I give everyone I meet the same chance, but very few make it past introductory chit-chat. I guess I’m an elitist. 😛

Johnny – “Just because you might need a dependable INTJ doesn’t mean he can’t be charmed. A guy can be reliable, but if he doesn’t know you, he has no obligation to be there for you.”

I am an INTJ guy, and I can definitely be charmed, but I would argue that the way to “charm” and NTJ isn’t the usual old “bubbly/happy/emotional” woman stuff. If a woman wants to charm me she has to show that she is: smart, loyal, funny, demure, honorable, introspective (at least enough to know something about herself other than what movies she likes), and logical at least a little bit. I don’t expect women to be all about the logic, but at least be able to follow a point to it’s conclusion and understand how we arrived. (Sorry if that comes off as sexist, but IME logic isn’t a natural female trait. *shrug*)

I tend to view the standard “bubbly” woman as flighty and annoying most of the time. I like people that are more serious for lack of a better term. I like people that take life seriously most of the time, but can cut it loose a little in the right environment.

VD – “And as for sarcasm, only immature and juvenile men think it is witty or attractive. It rapidly becomes predictable and tiresome. I know people who absolutely love puns too. That’s not attractive either. It’s incredibly annoying.”

Welp, then I suppose I am incredibly annoying, predictable, and tiresome. Sweet! That means less people bothering me.

“And by the way, I’m INTJ. So, if you like hard, cold, and judgmental logic, you might want to rethink your solipsistic approach, because based on what you’ve displayed here, no INTJ would want to put up with your level of narcissism. INTJs generally like to discuss ideas, not people, and especially not people whose only serious interest is themselves. I’m not saying that is the case with you, but it is certainly the image you convey.”

Vox, I believe Charm is rather young, and if I’m “reading” her correctly, has only just recently learned about INTJ’s and their traits. I only learned about it in the last 8 months myself, so we have been going back and forth essentially “comparing notes” to see how many of the things we think are “abnormal” are actually very normal for our personality type. I don’t see anything here that makes me believe she is narcissistic, I just think she is genuinely relieved to find out she isn’t a freak, which I will say was a relief for me. I didn’t care so much that I might be a freak, but at least now I know that I’m just a minority. But, you are certainly entitled to your views of her posts. I will continue to engage here with her, because I think she’s a good egg, and IMO there just aren’t that many out there. And for the record, I’d sit down and have a beer with her any day of the week, provided she was anywhere close to the rusted buckled of the steel belt where I live. 😛

Or, perhaps I’m just as narcissistic and can’t see the forest for the trees. If that’s the case, I made it 41 years like this, it isn’t likely to change anytime soon.

Charm

@VD

Im having a hard time understanding how stating that I’m not bubbly and that I enjoy sarcasm is in the least bit offensive. I don’t think Im a special snowflake at all, but being “bubbly” isn’t who I am and I fully acknowledge it. I certainly understand that a lot of men like bubbly women. I’ve never stated that men didn’t find it attractive. Do I understand it? Sure I understand the appeal, but because I’m not male and I don’t date women, I guess I’ll never fully understand it. Then again, I don’t understand the appeal of “alpha” as the ‘sphere describes.

As for logic, I generally use it more often than not. I don’t use it all the time because I am still human and not a robot, but I appreciate it more than personal feelings which are highly subjective.

Charm

. I don’t see anything here that makes me believe she is narcissistic, I just think she is genuinely relieved to find out she isn’t a freak, which I will say was a relief for me. I didn’t care so much that I might be a freak, but at least now I know that I’m just a minority. But, you are certainly entitled to your views of her posts. I will continue to engage here with her, because I think she’s a good egg, and IMO there just aren’t that many out there.

Thanks Ted.

The only reason that I’ve ever talked about and/or described myself online is because we can’t interact face to face so a lot of my personality traits aren’t as evident. In person, I never talk about myself. Ever. I actually have a pretty hard time doing so because I’d rather allow the person Im around to make up their own mind about me.

Re sarcasm

Do people use sarcasm on just anyone? I certainly don’t. Its only ever used with people I’m close with who won’t be offended by it. I’ve never been sarcastic with someone I don’t know well or I’m not close to. When people do use it in mixed company, even I find it inappropriate and rude. Also, I’ve never thought it was “witty”, but well placed sarcasm is quite amusing. Maybe I’m over playing how often I use sarcasm. Its not like every other statement out of my mouth is sarcastic. Do I enjoy it from time to time? Yes.

http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com dannyfrom504

i’d have to agree with this. i might have to link this to my next post since this be of some relevence.

good post Tia.

Ramble

re: Sarcasm

Ted, the fact that your SO likes your sarcastic side may not be great evidence that a girl should be more sarcastic. What attracts guys to girls does not necessarily work in the opposite direction.

Charm,
Just because you may like sarcasm (again, so does Ted’s significant other), does not mean that guys will be attracted to it. Personally, I don’t mind it, but only in small doses. I think it is very easy for a girl to make herself fairly unattractive via sarcasm.

If you need any evidence, just visit Jezebel. Snark and Sarcasm is almost religion in that place.

Jason

Charm,

These are the only ones applicable to me. I still stand by sarcasm damnit. I love people who love it. Im only impatient when something is taking longer than it should. I don’t play “hard to get” at all, but I know I am hard to get. It takes a lot of time to really get to know me, and you have to be the right person to even be let in.

Persistent sarcasm is NOT even remotely attractive in a female. Now, a witty, sarcastic comment sprinkled in every now and then, if actually funny, can be quite endearing, but anything more than that is almost always seen as annoying and masculine.

Jason

INTJ,

However, while these traits SHOULD be desirable, are you sure that most men actually look for these traits?

Men looking for a committed LTR/marriage DO look and want these traits, but most will settle for a much lesser version because they don’t live in or understand a world of female abundance. A lot of men, in spite of some very unattractive traits in their women, gladly accept the tradeoff for a steady supply of sex, because they don’t know with who or when they might find more sexual opportunity.

If you are talking about men who are not LTR minded though, a lot of these traits would be still be nice in a woman, but most are unnecessary.

VD called you a narcissist. Look over your comment at 61 and locate a sentence that doesn’t include some permutation of the word I.

@VD

Bubbly is wonderful to be around, coming from another INTJ.

Sarcasm can go either way depending on the usage. Sparingly and in a fun way, good. Negative conotation, bad. Too much, bad.

Just1X

@Susan

it must be my borderline personality*, but I feel I should point out that I hinted for personality type survey of readers only a few days ago…now we’re getting there by the back door.

*INTJ / INTP

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

My hesitation is that I know little of MB myself. Do you think it would be useful or interesting just to send readers to a survey and then invite them back to discuss? Or should I research the various types wrt relationship skills, wants, etc.? I’m willing, I’m just not sure how to proceed. I agree with you that there seems to be quite an appetite for it.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Charm – “Maybe I’m over playing how often I use sarcasm. Its not like every other statement out of my mouth is sarcastic. Do I enjoy it from time to time? Yes.”

Yeah, I get the impression that everyone else thinks you are a sarcastic bitch LOL. I get it, because I think we both use sarcasm the same way, which is normally a smart-assed remark said quietly to the people directly around me about something going on in our general area. I tend to think of it as ‘color commentary’, which is to say that I generally focus it on what other people around me are doing. Yes, that means I am sometimes making fun of other people. Keep in mind I don’t like most “people” and as arrogant as it is I tend to view then as sheep, so no I don’t feel bad about it. Frankly, I always imagined people making fun of my weirdness in similar ways, except most of them probably don’t have the intelligence to correctly be sarcastic, so its probably more along the lines of “that dude is wearing socks with sandals huh huh” (yes,I used to wear sandals with socks. Sue me…)

Jason – “Persistent sarcasm is NOT even remotely attractive in a female. Now, a witty, sarcastic comment sprinkled in every now and then, if actually funny, can be quite endearing, but anything more than that is almost always seen as annoying and masculine.”

I agree, and I think this is how Charm rolls. It’s how I roll in fact. I don’t walk around blasting out sarcastic comments to everyone. I mostly drop them into private conversations with people I am intimately involved with, whether friend, family, or SO. Yes, it is mean spirited, but it is only one of the many reasons I’ll be going to hell, so I don’t sweat it.

Ramble – “Ted, the fact that your SO likes your sarcastic side may not be great evidence that a girl should be more sarcastic. What attracts guys to girls does not necessarily work in the opposite direction.”

This is entirely true. But, I’m getting the impression that Charm is going to be looking for a similarly minded guy. To me, these little sarcastic moments actually bring me closer to my SO, because it fosters a feeling of us against the world. It may sound odd, but I feel more like we are on the same team and everyone else is on the other when we share our private moments like this. Again, it may be mean spirited, but I really don’t care. The people that are the focus of my comments rarely ever know about them, and we get a good chuckle. Again, this is a minor infraction when viewed against many of my other “sins”.

Just1X

‘zut alors’

“avez vous visité”

VDM

Charm

@Jason

Refer to my last post, I think were on the same page here. If anyone overuses sarcasm it just becomes unattractive. Man or woman. When I hear people say they hate sarcasm, I take it to mean that they dislike period. They don’t want to hear it at all. It pissed them off when people use it. Its just like swearing. I don’t hate it, and I do swear, but you’re every other word out my mouth isn’t a curse word and when people overuse it, it becomes unattractive.

Im also having a hard time thinking that a certain style of speaking or humor is inherently masculine or feminine. I think perception varies too greatly from person to person for it to just be defined as “masculine”

Charm

if every other word*

hmm…

http://deleted Jason773

Susan,

That first comment from ‘Jason’ was not from the 24yo one, as I’m sure you could tell based on the email address, but to avoid ambiguity for other posters I’m going to go by Jason773 from now on.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

That first comment from ‘Jason’ was not from the 24yo one, as I’m sure you could tell based on the email address,

What gave it away was his attitude. I wasn’t confused for a second, but I appreciate that others may be. Jason773 sounds good to me.

Just1X

@Ramble

“If you need any evidence, just visit Jezebel. Snark and Sarcasm is almost religion in that place.”

no frayed knot, I think that sarcasm, if properly done, requires a bit of wit and humour. Jezebel majors in bitchy (other words exist). Feminism and humour…a rare mixture indeed.

Escoffier

What always bugged me the most was flakiness, hot-cold, hard-to-get and all that nonsense. I don’t know if girls do this as a concious strategy or instinctively, I suspect it is the latter, but whenever I encountered it I walked.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

I don’t know if girls do this as a concious strategy or instinctively, I suspect it is the latter, but whenever I encountered it I walked.

There is a persistent belief among young women that guys want the challenge of the chase. Even in the book “He’s Just Not That Into You,” a best seller only a few years ago, the critical concept is, “If he wants you badly enough, he’ll do a lot of work to make it happen.” I have probably been told hundreds of times in my life that “men pursue.”

If it were not already hard enough to get rid of this belief, most college women can look to the biggest womanizer on campus, and if he’s in a relationship, it’s almost certainly with a slutty psycho bitch. Jason recently addressed why (DIRTY in bed) and I’ve also discussed this with my son’s frat brothers. They like the idea of the girl who can only be tamed by them, made sweet and pliant by them, etc. Lots of other girls observe this highly visible if unusual phenomenon and conclude that hard to get and even hard to live with is the way to go.

Ramble

The people that are the focus of my</strong comments rarely ever know about them, and we get a good chuckle.

Ted, again, you are making a reference to the man (you) being sarcastic and the girl enjoying it. I am not saying that you, never, ever, enjoy her sarcasm. I am sure that you do.

But, in general, I believe that sarcasm is most often enjoyed in the one direction. And, that girls should be careful about employing it.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Escoffier – “I don’t know if girls do this as a concious strategy or instinctively, I suspect it is the latter, but whenever I encountered it I walked.”

I think it tends to manifest in women that are simply rather indecisive AND impulsive, as if they can’t make up their mind what they want to do from moment to moment, but they are bored and easily distracted, hence the random flaking.

And I’m with you in so much that I can’t stand that type of behavior.

Ramble

Bold Markup Fail!

Fuck!

Let’s try this again:

The people that are the focus of my comments rarely ever know about them, and we get a good chuckle.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Ramble – “But, in general, I believe that sarcasm is most often enjoyed in the one direction. And, that girls should be careful about employing it.”

Fair enough. I guess her options are tone it down, or look for her special unicorn of a man that enjoys it. I will agree that for most men, sarcasm is probably a turn-off, but I would also add that it is probably because most women simply don’t do it correctly, that is, like a man. 😉

Ramble

no frayed knot, I think that sarcasm, if properly done, requires a bit of wit and humour. Jezebel majors in bitchy (other words exist). Feminism and humour…a rare mixture indeed.

Just1,
I actually agree with you, but, I would still bet dollars to donuts that many, many girls over at Jezebel think that they ARE being humorous (within their snark and sarcasm).

Again, this is why I am saying that the measuring of female sarcasm is important. Although, at this point, I feel like I have spent WAY too much time on this one small point.

Just1X

@Ramble; agree, agree and agree

Ramble

Fair enough. I guess her options are tone it down, or look for her special unicorn of a man that enjoys it.

For all I know, Charm does it perfectly. And, since it looks like a few have piled on her this morning, I will say, “Charm, you are probably great at doling out the sarcasm”.

But, for some others, it can be an important thing to watch out for.

FeralEmployee

Has the blog post title changed? If so, “How to keep a boyfriend” would be a better alternative. Too many fakers out there upholding a temporary mask with these virtues, only to have their bad characteristics leak through as time progresses. Nothing is stopping them from doing so.

Of course, nobody is perfect, everybody deviates from this list at some point. But with today’s culture, lying is nor frowned upon an awful lot. Pretend for a month, snag the nomination and she’s in. The danger in the long term is still present. Then again, there are ways to stress test those.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Has the blog post title changed?

Yeah, I just realized that this was a great opportunity to answer my most common search result: “why don’t I have a boyfriend?” Before women can keep one, they have to get a guy to commit. That’s where most women are having trouble.

VD

Im having a hard time understanding how stating that I’m not bubbly and that I enjoy sarcasm is in the least bit offensive. I don’t think Im a special snowflake at all, but being “bubbly” isn’t who I am and I fully acknowledge it. I certainly understand that a lot of men like bubbly women. I’ve never stated that men didn’t find it attractive. Do I understand it? Sure I understand the appeal, but because I’m not male and I don’t date women, I guess I’ll never fully understand it. Then again, I don’t understand the appeal of “alpha” as the ‘sphere describes.

You’re absolutely right. It is not in the least bit offensive. It is merely irrelevant, uninteresting, solipsistic, and annoying. I’m curious to know why you think it is of interest to anyone here, male or female, if someone by the pseudonym “Charm” is bubbly or not, and if said Charm fully acknowledges that lack of bubbliness or not. It’s to your credit that you admit you fail to understand various things about men, but one of them appears to be the male distaste for female narcissism.

As with sarcasm, narcissism is something that many – not all – women find attractive and very few men do. Are women attracted to sweet, submissive men? Not so much, just as men are not, by and large, attracted to harsh, dominant women. This is not rocket science. You can ignore it if you like and insist that men must accept you for yourself, but then, don’t be surprised if your options are more limited than you might like.

Ted, the fact that your SO likes your sarcastic side may not be great evidence that a girl should be more sarcastic. What attracts guys to girls does not necessarily work in the opposite direction.

Bingo.

I don’t see anything here that makes me believe she is narcissistic, I just think she is genuinely relieved to find out she isn’t a freak, which I will say was a relief for me. I didn’t care so much that I might be a freak, but at least now I know that I’m just a minority.

Seriously? I can only imagine that is related to the fact that you appear to believe to share her perspective that your idiosyncracies are similarly fascinating to the world and intrinsically related to the topic under discussion. Do you think the public discussion of Susan’s posts be improved or diminished if everyone else followed your lead in regarding the comments as a means of working out their various psychological issues? For example, I have a serious and disturbing issue regarding chess end games I am attempting to work out. Would it be to the benefit of everyone here if I were to produce multiple extended comments concerning this regardless of what the post was?

I don’t know you or Charm, nor do I have anything against either of you. But based on your comments, it is obvious that both of you likely have a panoply of relationship issues that largely stem from the fact that you are overly fascinated with your own navels.

Just1X

@Susan #83

on doit essayer (one must try). I need the practice, in both senses. FYI her English is better than my French.

I think that there are differences between the French and Anglos, so I asked why she came to HUS, and why her link was to such a strange site.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I think that there are differences between the French and Anglos, so I asked why she came to HUS, and why her link was to such a strange site.

Ha, I know Be warned, I can understand what you’re writing.

Escoffier

Well, I guess I didn’t mind a small dose of it in the beginning. It’s true that in general guys don’t want to be chased. We might be flattered by that and gratified by the ease of it but a girl who chases is not going to get a LTR out of it. That’s a recipe for getting P&Ded.

What bugged me was, once you’ve gone on several dates and it’s clear you’re interested and she keeps up with the hot-cold, push-pull. There’s a time to turn that off and in my case, that time was pretty early.

Just1X

@Susan #84

je soupcon que, I suspect that, supplying a link to the test will suffice…the post looks like it will write itself as people report results. Could be a low workload post (or could turn into a nightmare, “You INTJs always say that” / “Typical EMU* thing to say” )

*Yes, I made this up. It describes people who stick their head in the sand…or is that just ostriches?

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Escoffier, speaking as a former flake, I used to go from hot to cold because the guy either set off a major red flag or did something that made him completely unattractive. For example I might have talked to a guy a lot and gotten a crush, and then found out he was also talking to another girl a lot and also being all chummy with her. I’d go from hot to cold in no time.

And at that point I’ve written it off, so the guy walking is no loss. If he was puzzled because that strategy or gameplaying should make him more attractive according to game theory, I didn’t care to explain myself, nor did I care if the guy thought I was a flake. I’m not a flake to my husband, who was also not a flake. His loyalty begets my loyalty.

Ramble

They like the idea of the girl who can only be tamed by them, made sweet and pliant by them, etc.

Really?

God, I can’t believe this. Well, I believe you. I guess, I don’t get it.

And, I didn’t see it.

Susan, one day you will need to do TONS of research on how we actually, biologically, changed.

The combination of various hormones, including all of that phyto-estrogen (in all of the unfermented soy), I think, has had a major impact on how we have developed.

Guys being interested in these butt-kicking girls (Yes, she weighs 110 lb soaking wet. No, she can’t do a pull up, but yeah, she absolutely destroys angry, testosterone filled men who, literally, weigh twice as much as she does.), apparently wanting some bitch to act sweet only to them, ugh, I am lost.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

Guys being interested in these butt-kicking girls (Yes, she weighs 110 lb soaking wet. No, she can’t do a pull up, but yeah, she absolutely destroys angry, testosterone filled men who, literally, weigh twice as much as she does.), apparently wanting some bitch to act sweet only to them, ugh, I am lost.

I think they may be the only challenge left for the guys who clean up in the hookup scene. They tire of women they refer to as Stage 5 Clingers, and they’re drawn to the cold fish. It’s not so different than the woman wanting to win over the elusive male.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, I think co-dependency is just a semantic difference from inter-dependency. I’m co-dependent enough on my husband that if something were to happen to him, I would have a very, very difficult time. I don’t think that’s unhealthy. It’s just a part of seeing us as “one,” a whole union.

Just1X

@Escoffier

“a girl who chases is not going to get a LTR out of it”

Not an everyday occurrance for me (I admit), but if the mutual attraction was there I’d take this as quite a compliment. I’m not a P&D merchant anyway, but I wouldn’t rule out a relationship. Depends if I thought she was the type to do it often, or whether her female defences had proven insufficient to hold off my rippling alpha charms (okay, joking here, but hopefully you get my point).

A battle of DLI must end in someone showing at least some interest or we all die celibate

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

Jungian archetype theory may be useful at least as a thought-starter re attractive personality features. In his book “Archetypes,” Anthony Stevens divides women into 4 basic personality types:

1)The mother…”impersonal and collective”…”instinctive and conventional”
2)The Hetaira or “love goddess”…”concerned with getting her man and relating to him at the intensely personal level rather than taking on the social roles & responsibilities implicit in being a wife & a mother.”
3)The Amazon…”independent and self-sufficient”…”comrade or competitor”…”the orientation is not toward individuals but rather tends to be impersonal & objective”
4)The Medium….”lives in close relationship with the collective unconscious…immersed in her subjective experience and speaks with the conviction of an oracle…startling their friends and relations by the power & unusual nature of their insights”

(Just ran into this book while shuffling home office space & thought I’d capture these thoughts before it goes in the box for a couple of weeks)

Charm

@Ramble

Yea, I understand a fair portion of people dislike it. I respect their right to dislike it. I’ve never tried to force it onto other people or anything, but when people state the dislike or sarcasm in absolute terms, I have to disagree. That list that Susan posted, I bet a lot of men could agree to liking, but not all men like or need everything on that list. What you might see as unattractive might not be a big deal to the next guy. I think it comes down to odds. Your odds of attracting a mate will increase if you possess certain traits. If a woman ascribes to the traditional feminine traits, I’m sure she will have no problem attracting a mate. Just like guys who adopt the “alpha” traits will be able to attract a higher number of women.

I’ve known women who possess quite a few of those less desirable traits, and a good portion of them have no problem getting into a relationship. We can debate the quality of that relationship, but they usually have mates. A woman can be nagging, jealous, clingy, high maintenance, irresponsible with money etc etc etc, but if she is deemed “very attractive”, she can get away with a lot of that crap.

I just don’t like the one size fits all attitude. Stating that I like sarcasm and am not very bubbly doesn’t mean that no one will ever like it. Maybe a lot of men won’t and I’ve been fine with that. You won’t see me trying to shame people into preferring anything other than their natural preferences.

Rico

I’ll just leave this here, re: sarcasm

“Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit” – Oliver Wilde

Just1X

@Susan #95

even ‘chui’?

I’m impressed, it’s pretty slangy. I don’t use dictionaries or translation services except for the odd word, so I end up playing somewhat fast and loose with la plus belle langue. Usually get smiled at a lot when I speak with the natives (amusement value). At least they like the English accent as much a we like the French one, for the same reasons AFAIAA.

Other slang that I liked included choette and phoque, and no, these aren’t small owl and seal respectively. Oh and ‘doigts de pied’ literally ‘foot fingers’ (toes) always makes me smile for some reason.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

even ‘chui’?

No, full disclosure, all the slang goes right over my head. I learned French in a classroom, and never lived there.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

VD – “Do you think the public discussion of Susan’s posts be improved or diminished if everyone else followed your lead in regarding the comments as a means of working out their various psychological issues?”

I believe that anyone that has the same personality/temperament/whatever as me will definitely benefit from my perspective. Being as Charm seems to be of a like mind, I think that SHE can benefit from what I post, and if she exists then others do as well. If you think I post here solely to help Susan with her mission, then you are mistaken. I admire Susan a great deal for her mission, but I have my own agenda, and if that coincides with Susan’s that’s a bonus. But rest assured that my posts are not always directed at her, or her “target” audience. If/when that is an issue I assume Susan will tell me to knock it off, and I will. If you don’t see the value in what I post, by all means skip by everything with my name at the top. I don’t expect anyone to take my “lead” simply because I posted it, but if it causes them a moment to stop and think, even if they disagree, then I’ve served my purpose.

Helping someone isn’t always about telling them what they SHOULD be doing. Sometimes it comes by showing them other ways of doing it, and letting them pick what is best for them. If you are suggesting that my approach is 100% wrong, you are entitled to that opinion. But I can tell yo that in “real” life (that is not on some blog on the ‘net) I don’t spend any time at all looking at my naval. Well, other than when I’m in the shower…

Escoffier

Hope, being flakey because you suspect or know that he is going after other girls concurrently probably accounts for around 1% of female flakiness. Certainly it did in my day. Besides, I don’t know if I would even call that flakey. It would be if you kept sending mixed signals, which I think would be wrong, but if you just walked at that point, that’s not flakiness.

purplesneakers

my two cents- so I used to be pretty heavy. I thought that if I just lost weight I would find a boyfriend just *like that*. Turns out, it doesn’t work that way. I actually have to, like, show interest and stuff. Make an effort to see them, and don’t expect them to do all the legwork and do all the “pursuing.” I tried playing “hard to get” at first, and it doesn’t work (before someone makes a comment saying that maybe I’m just an uggo, I think I can safely say that I’m not bad on the eyes, seeing as how I got checked out and approached a lot, and was the object of unrequited “love,” even when I was quite heavy. I don’t have a huge rack and never dress scantily so I’m assuming my face had something to do with it). Anyway, being nice and friendly go a long way. Being a bitch doesn’t. Sincerity is key. It’s so rare these days, and I surprise even myself when I make myself say sincere things out loud. I feel like a complete idiot saying them but the people around me lap it up.

I’m sure most girls had all this figured out ages ago (or maybe not, since Susan is writing this post), but seeing as how I am an extreme introvert and a slight social retard, learning how to talk to boys, how to talk to their friends, how to treat his boy friends vs. his girl friends, has been a trying learning experience for me. That said, I still don’t think it’s even on the same level as what men have to do when they learn game. Especially since I’m learning more about the relationships of the people around me–surprisingly often, what looked like a happy, stable couple actually turns out to be a relationship where the woman nags and dominates and the man feels cowed but still lucky to be with someone young and pretty. It’s helped me realize just how much ‘power’ young women have over men, if most of them (even good-looking, successful career-wise ‘high status’ men) will really put up with that much shit.

So why don’t I have a boyfriend yet? I wish I could figure it out. Maybe I just haven’t met the right person. But I also know that I’m not entirely comfortable with myself, and I end up self-sabotaging sometimes. So yes, be as hot as possible, but I also wouldn’t recommend going too much into “lovelysexybeauty” territory (anyone remember her blog? I still wonder if it/she was for real)–also work on your ‘inner spirit’ and being confident and at ease and happy with yourself and your life. I think being happy is really the key.

Another small thing- to get a boyfriend, you also have to.. meet men. Normally I would gravitate towards talking to women in new social situations, but now I try talking to men more. I already have enough female friends; I don’t need any more. The guys are also generally friendlier, and I’ve found it’s easier for an introvert to talk to a man one-on-one rather than your average woman (either one on one or in small groups) because there’s not as much pressure to ‘impress’ the other girls and bond and become bffl’s immediately. Though as a side note, one of the most interesting effects of losing weight is that I get checked out by (straight) women more too, and I get the feeling that they’re a lot nicer to me than they would be if I still looked like I did before.

Jason

“What gave it away was his attitude. I wasn’t confused for a second, but I appreciate that others may be. Jason773 sounds good to me.”

My attitude?

My attitude of dismay that this once was a blog where you’d listen to input from people like Yohami and Rollo, but now you have what, 12 regular commenters all parroting each other?

How about you allow a commenter to have an opinion you don’t like?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jason

My attitude of dismay that this once was a blog where you’d listen to input from people like Yohami and Rollo, but now you have what, 12 regular commenters all parroting each other?

Both Yohami and Rollo are toxic presences in coed company, as they despise women. Their comments are filled with invective, both general and personal. They’re also wrong about most things. The good news for you is that they both have blogs. You are no longer welcome here.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

navel – damn I hate when I let auto-correct have its way…

Oh and I don’t care if one single person here finds my “idiosyncracies” are fascinating. I blame my narcissistic tendencies.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Escoffier, okay then you mean hot to cold to hot then? That’s fairly simple and common. She is interested, but not interested enough. The fact is a lot of young people are clueless and fumbling in the dark, and girls are no different. She is responding to the attractive traits in the guy but then turned off by the unattractive traits, resulting in being wishy-washy.

Also, it is partially the nature of the female reproductive cycle, which again a lot of young women are not attuned to and don’t fully realize the effects. When something was off with my husband was during the unfertile time of my cycle. When sparks flew with my husband was during the most fertile time of my cycle. I could appear cold then hot in response just because of hormones. All women deal with this; many young women are just not aware of it.

Just1X

@Susan

chui – Je suis

chouette – sweeeeeet! looks like they took the English word and finagled it into a French word. Happily it’s the word for a cute animal (small owl).

phoque – well, like it sounds in English…usually on a t-shirt with a picture of a seal on it (for plausible deniability with mere and pere).

de rien

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

I love those slang terms, and find it interesting how English continues to creep in.

Ramble

I just don’t like the one size fits all attitude.

I think that few people do, but, we tend to generalize.

Stating that I like sarcasm …

Again, there is a big difference between what a girl likes in a guy and vice versa. And, again, for all I know, you pull it off perfectly. But, in general, when some guy hears that some girl is sarcastic, red flags go off.

Sarcasm != Charming

However, it can be quite clever, when done well.

Escoffier

Hope, the way guys experience that (if they stop to think about it) is, She’s using me. When she has no other or better options, I am good enough. When things are looking up elsewhere, I am suddenly not good enough. Guys will persevere if they are desperate or smitten enough, or if they are just self-deluded.

In any case, I think it’s a profoundly unattractive trait in females, and even if the cause is biological, that’s no excuse not to get control of it. Figure out if you are interested and if you are, show interest. If not, politely move on. Very simple.

Perhaps this not the vibe you intended to convey, but your posts read like a defense of/excuse for female flakiness. All I can say is, I personally hate it and I think nearly all guys do as well. Take that FWIW.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Escoffier, it’s a neutral explanation, like the reason why a person might develop a cold. I’m not saying guys should accept it or like it, but I am explaining why girls do it. And it happens the other way, too. Some guys will be wishy-washy because their interest level is not high enough. Unfortunately, girls tend to be attracted to this characteristic rather than run away.

I realize how guys experience it is generally negative, but in a way it may be useful. They can identify the girls who are truly into them as opposed to merely lukewarm. They can avoid a much worse breakup later on, if they simply avoid girls who aren’t interested enough to not be flakes. The “no bullshit” post Susan made is a good illustration of a good trajectory.

Ramble

In any case, I think it’s a profoundly unattractive trait in females, and even if the cause is biological, that’s no excuse not to get control of it. Figure out if you are interested and if you are, show interest. If not, politely move on. Very simple.

Escoffier, I agree. However, like Hope said down thread, it may be more feature than bug.

Flaking sucks, but at least you know to move on.

VD

You won’t see me trying to shame people into preferring anything other than their natural preferences.

No doubt. That would require talking about something besides yourself.

I believe that anyone that has the same personality/temperament/whatever as me will definitely benefit from my perspective. Being as Charm seems to be of a like mind, I think that SHE can benefit from what I post, and if she exists then others do as well

I very much doubt it. That would be like trying to cure obesity with forced feedings. Look, you can certainly live your life however you wish, but when someone who is generally considered to be fairly narcissistic is telling you that your behavior appears to be inordinately self-obsessed, that should give you some idea where the problem is. Learning to love yourself, warts and all, is a Disney motif, it’s not a real life solution, and it is the very last thing extreme narcissists like you and Charm need to hear.

Stingray

Why athleticism? Is it because she is more likely to stay fit or is it more an element of fun? Both?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stingray

Why athleticism? Is it because she is more likely to stay fit

I took it to mean that athleticism signals good coordination, which is a good survival trait to pass on to offspring.

UrbanCounselor

Susan..you are spot on with this post!! I was in a study group with 2 college upperclassmen girls the other night and we were studying for a social psychology exam around relationships when I asked if they read blogs. They didn’t even consider it…I was going to recommend yours. They were making textbook mistakes. I wish women realized that we want a feminine and fun woman as much as the want a dominant and faithful man

Lokland

@Stingray

I wondered the same thing. I’ve never met a guy who demanded a woman be sports pro. Its not a bad thing but I wouldn’t consider it a bonus unless it kept her thin.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Escoffier, undoubtedly it’s a turn-off to guys. Though it is not always biological due to hormones. It could be projecting one’s own preferences onto the opposite sex. Likewise, many guys also do all kinds of things that are turn-offs to girls in the misguided belief that it makes them more attractive.

Girls often act in a way that they would find attractive if a guy acts that way (push-pull, playing games, trying to act dominant, sarcastic, and competitive). Guys also often act in a way that they would find attractive if a girl acts that way (lots of eagerness, submissiveness, trying to act supplicating, nice, and sweet).

The result is, a lot of young folks end up not appearing very attractive to the opposite sex. They get some initial interest but cannot keep it, because they keep acting in an unattractive way to the opposite sex. Ignorance, as it turns out, is not always bliss.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

VD – ” Learning to love yourself, warts and all, is a Disney motif, it’s not a real life solution, and it is the very last thing extreme narcissists like you and Charm need to hear.”

Yep I’m narcissistic, because I only think about, talk about, or care about myself. And you can determine this based solely on what I post on a random blog on the internet? Wow, you must be really good at reading people.

We should not advise girls to display cold fish behavior to catch these promiscuous player types.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Hope

We should not advise girls to display cold fish behavior to catch these promiscuous player types.

Well, I tried to discourage it by pointing out that being an annoying psycho bitch would decrease the size and quality of the pool of potential mates. I agree – it’s a way of potentially landing a player. I would sooner tell women how to get malaria.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

VD – “but when someone who is generally considered to be fairly narcissistic is telling you that”

I missed that line in my first reading. OK so we are both narcissists. I guess maybe it takes one to know one?

I’ve never been called narcissistic before today that I know of, but I have been called an arrogant asshole many times. I’m good with it.

Ramble

I think they may be the only challenge left for the guys who clean up in the hookup scene. They tire of women they refer to as Stage 5 Clingers, and they’re drawn to the cold fish. It’s not so different than the woman wanting to win over the elusive male.

Alright, I think I am understanding, so, let me see:

1. Casual Sex is fairly easy nowadays.
2. However, you can’t get Casual Sex from Old Fashioned Feminine girls.
3. We (the males) want Casual Sex, so, to a degree, we avoid the Old Fashioned Girls and the Cold Fish
4. Of the sluts, the butt-kicking sluts are the hardest, and, therefore, most satisfying, to get.

Is that about right?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

I’ve only known Cold Fish who were also rather slutty. Essentially, they beat the manwhores at their own game. But honestly, I know of about 3 or 4 women in two colleges who fit this description – I don’t know how common this is.

Ramble

I love those slang terms, and find it interesting how English continues to creep in.

In Romania, the word for “weekend”, is “weekend”.

Also, it is becoming more common to hear some starlet in Romania to refer to “doing shopping”. As in, they just got back from Paris where they were “doing shopping”. All of the words will be in Romanian, except for the “doing shopping”.

I took it, and apparently I have a secure attachment style. “You feel comfotable sharing your feelings with your partner and are able to turn to your partner for support.”

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

A cold fish woman sounds to me like an avoidant type as well. It would make total sense for two avoidants to get together. Like is attracted to like, after all.

My husband and I would probably both be considered “clingers” by most mixed or avoidant people. As it turns out we’re just secure attachment types and want to form strong, intimate and trusting bonds.

Ramble

Susan, I was trying to get the logic right…was it close?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

Susan, I was trying to get the logic right…was it close?

I think so. The part that resonated for me was guys not wanting old fashioned girls. I think there’s some pressure, even on the beta guys, to prefer casual sex (maybe they would anyway, IDK). So they aim to score a hookup rather than go on dates and get a girlfriend. There’s a lot more social status in the former, and the latter is often viewed as a loser’s game.

INTJ

btw Susan, what are your thoughts on this:

Until now I’ve only cared about academics and haven’t really been interested in girls. But now I’m 20, and I want to begin searching for a potential wife.

The problem is finding girls who are LTR material. From observing people around me and hearing stories about their relationships, I’ve noticed that it’s pretty easy for me to gauge wether a girl is into casual or very promiscuous sex or not. The hard part is judging wether she practices long term monogamy or serial monogamy. It seems like so many girls keep running through a long list of boyfriends and just are unable to try to settle down. There seem to be two types of these: first are the unstable type who have emotional issues. The second are the confident and often attractive types who know that they are attractive and practice hypergamy.

So I need to look for heuristics to find girls who are likely to settle down. What I have noticed is that such girls often tend to be introverted. Of course, some emotional girls likely to create drama also are introverted. I guess I just have to look for signs of emotional maturity in introverts. Any other things I should look for?

Now, if I find an introvert I’m interested in as a potential partner, how do I judge wether she’s also interested in me? I’d think indicators would be that she likes to converse or spend time with me, but I’ve also seen girls show such “interest” in guys who they keep in the friend-zone. It seems to especially be a major problem for intellectual guys (I’m a member of that set) that girls often like conversing with them but never consider them for a relationship. So how would I tell wether I’m viewed as a close friend or as a possible romantic interest?

Thanks for any suggestions.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

At 20, you’re awfully young to be searching for a wife. Since the average male doesn’t marry until his late 20s, if you found someone now you’d either be signing up for a very long dating period, or a very early marriage. The pool of women who want either is small. This is why LTRs, or serial monogamy, has become the norm. People want relationships, including sexual ones, and they don’t want to wait until they’re ready to marry. For college students, LT monogamy and serial monogamy are pretty much the same thing. I would be wary of any girl who has never been single for a period of time. Some girls audition guy friends for the boyfriend role the minute their relationship ends.

Research shows that extraversion and casual sex are linked, but it’s not a hard and fast rule. I would judge people by the way they spend their time and the company they keep. You’re looking for someone with good values. For example, rule out binge drinkers.

In terms of gauging interest, you should definitely read up on Game and get a sense of how to flirt with girls in a way that communicates sexual attraction. If you fail to escalate or act sexually interested, you’re essentially shooting yourself in the foot by placing yourself in the friend zone. So flirting should include some light touching, plenty of eye contact, and confidently suggesting (or even dictating) the next move. She can always say no, but if you start weak you probably won’t be able to recover. First impressions are pretty important.

VD

Why athleticism? Is it because she is more likely to stay fit or is it more an element of fun? Both?

Because she’s more likely to stay fit. All of my male friends were favorably impressed when Spacebunny joined our gym while we were dating so that she could work out with me. One thing I’ve noticed is that none of the women in our American social circle got fat despite having between three and six children. Whereas the slender women who prided themselves on never sweating or going to the gym are all overweight now.

Just1X

@Susan

it’s worse in tech, they’ve grabbed English words wholesale and converted them to frenglish / franglais:

toaster – to ‘toast’ / break something beyond repair

debugger – to debug

tester – well, you get the idea

These were common parlance

Escoffier

I really had only one “clinger” problem but I ran like hell.

Charm

@VD

I never expected it be interesting or relevant to anyone who didn’t care to read it. Both bubbly and sarcasm have been brought up in past threads and I was simply offering my position to those who did care to read it. If you don’t care to read it then don’t. If someone is talking about something I don’t care to hear I simply skip over the conversation.

Last time I checked, HUS was Susans blog. If she has a problem with anything that I’ve written she can take it up with me. I don’t see the point of coming here and calling someone annoying simply because you don’t like what I write. Every time you see a post by Charm, simply skip over it.

Herb

@Susan

Yeah, I just realized that this was a great opportunity to answer my most common search result: “why don’t I have a boyfriend?” Before women can keep one, they have to get a guy to commit. That’s where most women are having trouble.

How about suggesting, “Give any guy who doesn’t smell back and can dress himself the chance to buy you coffee before rejecting him outright due to list item #83″ or “Ask guys who appeal to you out.”

The old Zig Ziglar bit about the President of General Motors just showing up and one day winding up running the company is appropriate. If most women want a boyfriend and don’t have one the first thing, even before this list maybe, is to ask “what am I doing to meet lots of men looking for girlfriends”.

Otherwise this list could easily turn into “all dressed up with no place to go.”

That complaint aside, I can’t tell you how happy I am to see this (although I wish it was the first line and in bold ):

What do you have to offer? If you want a man to commit to you, you must be someone who is worthy of commitment. If he takes himself off the market, he is sacrificing the potential (or reality) of sexual variety. The harder you work on becoming an attractive and interesting person of good character, the better your chances of getting an excellent man to commit to you.

Everything from older women complaining about lack of good men or the need to settle all concentrate on what men need to do or aren’t doing. That all these 30+ women never stop to ask “what am I bringing to the table” is very sad.

Good for you for trying to make sure women who are 20 ask themselves that question.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

INTJ, my suggestion to you is instead of letting girls keep you in the friends zone, beat the girl first to the friend zone. Having female friends around is a bit of social proof, too.

Girls tend to play it safe, but if you tell her first “let’s be friends,” it takes away most of her power. She’ll wonder why, she’ll see you as interesting and possibly a challenge, and then she will qualify herself to you because the script has been flipped on her.

Some of Susan’s old posts have girls commenting all the time, asking how to know if her good male friend has romantic feelings for her — because over time, she developed feelings for him.

Since you really will be evaluating these girls for friendship and relationship potential, you won’t be lying when you friend zone them. If you do develop romantic feelings later, don’t be afraid to pursue things, but also don’t make her a priority if she doesn’t feel the same way. Find other female friends and focus on them.

Probably the best indicator a girl is into you is that she doesn’t talk to any other guy a lot, doesn’t have any other male friends, and always makes an effort to talk to you and spend time with you. If she’s also jealous of your interactions with other females, then she’s likely interested in you as more than a friend.

Ted D

Hope – “Girls tend to play it safe, but if you tell her first “let’s be friends,” it takes away most of her power. She’ll wonder why, she’ll see you as interesting and possibly a challenge, and then she will qualify herself to you because the script has been flipped on her.”

Damn that is a solid idea. And it doesn’t require them an to do or say anything differently, that isn’t requires no “game”. It does put the woman in a position where she might try to prove she is GF material simply because she was dismissed as such from the get go.

Good stuff Hope. 😉

Ted D

Ouch stupid iPad… Second sentence should read “that is it requires no game”…

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

All dressed up with no place to go? Susan’s taken care of the “places to go” part before:

“There’s a lot more social status in the former, and the latter is often viewed as a loser’s game.”

Mostly by the woman who want boyfriends no less. Evidenced by the all the boyfriends in uni are ugly meme.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Mostly by the woman who want boyfriends no less.

No, that’s not what I meant. College guys here have discussed this – one guy shared a story of a friend of his. The guy was a real manwhore, but decided he was sick of it and wanted a gf. The guys gave him a rough time about it. One night at a party his gf came up to him, grabbed his junk from behind and said, “Let’s go upstairs.” They did, and the remaining guys looked at each other. My reader just said, “Respect.” And everyone agreed. The guy didn’t catch any more shit after that.

To be clear, this is the behavior exhibited by the men with the most options, and that is the behavior that other guys aspire to. As I’ve said many times in the past, I don’t blame them.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Thanks Ted, but the idea is credited to my husband. He said to me early on, “I’m not looking for a girlfriend. Most girls aren’t really girlfriend material.” I was like okay, whatever, since at the time I didn’t have romantic feelings for him. But he had already positioned himself in the more powerful seat, and there he remains today. 😛

Just1X

@Herb

Yes, it is remarkable how everything in the media revolves about women AS society; Women have a problem? => Society has a problem => What should men do to fix it / themselves?

Not enough men => men need to man up, not WHY are guys not buying the ‘be a man and suck it up’ meme anymore?

Men don’t want to commit => men need to suck it up and marry, not WHY don’t men want to get married? What might be wrong with marriage and divorce laws.

I understand why feminists put women first, but why do tard-cons and so-cons refuse to address men’s issues? (The cause of many a ruckus at the dread blogger Dalrock’s site, most recently with Darwin Catholic).

Asking her to wonder “what am I bringing to the table?” sounds like nuking the hamster. Danny from 504 and Private Man have played with that recently (amongst others).

Gynocentrism (Greek, gyno-, “woman, female”) is the practice, conscious or otherwise, of placing female human beings or the feminine point of view at the center of one’s world view. The perceptions, needs, and desires of women have primacy in this system, where the female view is the reference point or lens through which matters are analysed.[1] Ideologically, gynocentrism prioritizes females hierarchically, as the overriding focus, and at the exclusion of all else. Observed in practice, the preeminence of women is seen as absolute: interpersonally, culturally, historically, politically, or in broader contexts socially (i.e. popular entertainment).

Just1X

@Hope

ljbf from the man first?

I’m not an expert in game, but I suspect that it’s a subtle neg. I also suspect that it might work as her first hamstery stirrings would be “Hey, why can’t we be more than friends? What’s wrong with me?”

I hope that you’re not espousing dark-game?

Ted D

Just1x – it has only been in the last few months that I’ve started to see this because it is so damn ingrained in modern Western society. We are literally steeped in the female imperative while being told that the male version is irrelevant. And even people that are aware of these imbalances such as the women regulars here fall victim to it.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why SoCons fall for this stuff other than decades of drinking the feminist kool-aid. The Dalrock vs. Darwin Catholic has been entertaining, but no way in hell I’m chiming in.

Lokland

@Hope, Ted D

Thats pretty classic game.
I read it from DeAngelo which is like 13 years old now.

Ted D

Hope – tell your husband some random guy named Ted on the ‘net thinks that opener is pure good for the less extroverted of men.

I’ve got to make sure my boys remember that one. As Just1x pointed out, it will get a woman’s hamster running full tilt from the get go, and give the guy an advantage from the start.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Just1X, if it’s the truth, then it isn’t a game. It’s not like the guy wants the girl to be his wife right away. In the beginning, he just wants to be friends in order to evaluate her potential for anything else. If she fails, then she stays friendzoned. That’s what girls do to guys all the time, so why is it “dark” to flip the script?

My husband is one of the most positive, light and loving people I’ve met in my life. Sure, he was ultimately looking for “the one,” but he couldn’t have known that I was it until he got to know me, as friends first.

VD

I never expected it be interesting or relevant to anyone who didn’t care to read it. Both bubbly and sarcasm have been brought up in past threads and I was simply offering my position to those who did care to read it. If you don’t care to read it then don’t. If someone is talking about something I don’t care to hear I simply skip over the conversation. Last time I checked, HUS was Susans blog. If she has a problem with anything that I’ve written she can take it up with me. I don’t see the point of coming here and calling someone annoying simply because you don’t like what I write.

The amusing thing is that you’ve actually managed to make a criticism of your extreme narcissism an excuse to talk more about yourself. People don’t have to read my responses to your ceaseless song of yourself either, but I suspect they provide more entertainment than the Charm On Charm show. Perhaps you don’t see the point of coming here and calling someone annoying simply because you don’t like what they wrote. I don’t see the point of coming here and talking about yourself ad infinitum.

But you see, you’re mistaken. It’s not that I dislike what you’re writing. I find it simultaneously amusing and appalling. And useful too, since the point I am making in addressing you is directly related to Susan’s post here, which is to say that solipsism and talking incessantly about yourself is no way to get, much less keep, a boyfriend. Notice which list contains Narcissism, Vanity, and Attention Seeker….

Ted D

Lokland – from what I’ve seen of DeAngelo on Askmen, I discounted him as a peddler of BS. I guess you can learn something useful from anyone. :p

Lokland

@Ted D

I only ever read his first book.
I saw his wedding ceremony. That was absolutely frickin hilarious and so over the top.

But the advice itself is quite solid (its where I started).

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Lokland, classic game moves also involve being masculine and confident. It doesn’t have to be some kind of dark, horrible thing.

Ted, that wasn’t his opener, though it did come up after some conversation. It was him being honest. He really is incredibly picky, just in general. 😛

Just1X

@Ted D

I didn’t add anything to that thread either as religion isn’t my thing. The reason that I mention it is that is shows the recurring theme of the tards and so cons, an absolute inability to meaningfully address issues from anything except a gynocentric one.

It’s an amazing experience when you first see it, as you assume that it’s just that they overlooked the men’s point of view. So, when it’s pointed out to them that there are other issues to be addressed – well hell, they’ll address them…but NO, no they won’t. They dodge and weave, deny and erect strawmen (as well as any feminist and on many of the same issues). There are a couple of people that sort of straddle the gap (one used to comment here AFAIR).

The easiest red-pill way to demonstrate the problem is to ask a *con just what fault should be laid at women’s feet for society’s problems. I still haven’t heard anything beyond a vague ‘there are problems’, ‘things aren’t perfect’ etc etc Never anything specific – never.

How can you have an honest debate with someone who flat out denies reality? Or just lives in an alternate one where 77cents / 1 out of 3 or 4 / all men are… etc etc are trooth.

That’s why I like HUS, we may not all share exactly the same views (I’m glad of that – it’s boring) but at least we all recognise reality when we see it. And there’s lots of INTies here, but not to the exclusion of ‘normal’ people (I’m INTj, FTR)

Just1X

@Hope,

I was teasing about the dark bit, honest.

I think that a woman deciding on a LJBF relationship is probably damning any future relationship beyond the friend level. So anything that prevents that decision being made by her, is probably better for BOTH sides in the long run (so, clearly isn’t dark, just smart IMHO).

Lokland

@Susan

You lost me.

I see that story showing guys think its good to have a girlfriend.

I was saying WOMEN are the ones saying they want a boyfriend but also bitching that all the boyfriends are ugly.
Not great encouragement for any would be boyfriend. Especially if he happened to be in ear shot of her bitching (count one girl at least in my life).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

I see that story showing guys think its good to have a girlfriend.

No, the guy caught a ton of shit until he basically said, “See ya later, playas, time for me to get laid.” Frat guys and athletes usually don’t want girlfriends, and they don’t want their bros to have them either. If it were otherwise, there would be more relationships.

Lokland

@Susan

Ya but who made having a girlfriend a bad thing, men or women.
If every women thinks your a loser/ugly for having a girlfriend but values hooking up the value of being a playa goes up and the value of being a boyfriend goes down.

This is evidenced by women saying all the boyfriends are ugly.

I’m not saying men don’t play a part but their actions are entirely dependent on womens actions.

Just1X

@VD and Charm

are you sure that any argument that you might appear to have might go away if you actually met and have a beer and a face to face chat?

Maybe I haven’t paid sufficient attention to what she wrote, but I haven’t seen anything that put my hackles up. And no, I’m not white-knighting for da ladee (I seriously don’t believe in that stuff), I would say the same thing if the roles were reversed.

I’ve had too many occasions where I nearly bit at ‘an offense’ that on second look could be read another way and I’m sure I cause that stuff more than I see it in return.

Besides she describes my personality quite well, I know where she’s coming from (or think I do). INTJs do get to empathise, don’t they?

Iggles

@ INTJ (at #47) —

@Jonny

The problem is that we aren’t the only ones standing in the corner. There’s also people like ISFPs and INFPs who often have emotional stability issues (I risk overgeneralizing here, but I’m just tired of seeing all these fickle-minded people around me).

Whoa, I’m an INFP and I’m anything but fickle!

I value loyalty and reliability in partners too. I couldn’t date a guy who was flaky (it’s the biggest turn off for me). Nor could I date one with a roving eye as well!

That said, I do find the talk of personality types on here very interesting and illuminating…

Tony

I think college is one of the causes for entitelment in the same way that women would dismiss men with out a degree, you know, projection.

Women value having a man with a degree (and one for herself) more than men value it in women.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Just1X – “Besides she describes my personality quite well, I know where she’s coming from (or think I do). INTJs do get to empathise, don’t they?”

Maybe in addition to HUS being a collection of outliers and a seemingly huge INTJ population, it may also be home to many narcissists!

I’d say lets form a support group, but I’m too in love with myself to care about anyone else. 😛

Just1X

@Lokland

“This is evidenced by women saying all the boyfriends are ugly.”

I’m sure that Roissy / Heartiste would tell you to stop listening to what these women say. My guess is that ‘amused mastery’ would be the recommended response (channeling my inner Roissy, but he’s awful faint), ‘how cute, they have opinions. that’s adorable’.

I realise that that is insulting (please Susan have mercy. I don’t really think this way, honest), but then they started it; “all (available) men are pigs and are unworthy of us” is what they said about you / me / 49% of the humans on the planet. That’s not acceptable to me, so fair’s fair.

You have to nuke the hamster, cause them to lose their frame as the superior ones. You can’t start from their frame because you cannot win in it, you need to change it and that requires a nuke.

The former need a good P&D, maybe a posted sex-vid on the net. The latter need a ring.

http://deleted Jason773

INTJ,

I am going to give you some GREAT advice here, so any other young guys would do well to listen up. If you want to up your chances of finding a ‘good’ girl, hang around campuses and campus coffee shops/libraries/restaurants that have a 4yr undergrad NURSING SCHOOL. My only LT gf in college (a situation I totally screwed up bc I was an idiot) was a nursing student, was very good looking and fit the mold of ‘good girl’ perfectly.

Let me reason as to why…

1) Nursing by nature is a fairly feminine field, showing a lot of traits that men would look for such as care, empathy, kindness and responsibility.

2) Studying nursing is pretty much pre-med lite, and a girl has to work diligently and be fairly smart in order to get a degree in this field.

3) The studying and clinicals that nursing students have to go through is intensive, giving them much less time to go out binge drinking, looking for hookups, etc. Yes, I’m sure there are some that break the mold and do those things, but the numbers will be much less than your typical lib arts sorority chick. They just don’t have the time for those activities if they are serious about earning the degree (the freshman year dropout rate is huge for nursing, so a girl who made it past the first year is most likely going to stick with it).

4) Nursing classes are 90% female, 5% gay males, and 5% straight males. These girls are dying for attractive, straight male attention, and even a marginally interesting guy who approaches her when out will get some daylight to work with as compared to a normal smoke show.

5) There are a lot of attractive nursing students IME.

From what I’ve seen, sooooo many nursing students get locked up in college, as many are specifically looking for a LTR, and it’s rare in my experience to find a 25+yo nurse who is not married or on her way to marriage with some guy.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Wait… am I reading this right? One or two college girls say that “boyfriends are ugly” and suddenly all women think so?

I thought according to game, girls find guys who have girlfriends attractive due to preselection?

Sometimes even you NT guys make no logical sense.

Escoffier

I thought “boyfriends are ugly” was meant as a relative statement, i.e., not that they are intrinsically hideous but that they are on average less attractive than the truly hot guys who never commit because they don’t have to.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I thought “boyfriends are ugly” was meant as a relative statement, i.e., not that they are intrinsically hideous but that they are on average less attractive than the truly hot guys who never commit because they don’t have to.

FWIW, I heard this term used by women when talking about their “personality crushes” on less cute guys who were good guys. I kid you not. Two of them were getting with guys at least 2 points lower in SMV. It was a great example of women assessing the market and recalibrating. Yes, those guys had a shot because men of the girls’ own SMV were not interested in monogamy. Good for them, that’s what a lopsided sex ratio will get you.

One of those relationships lasted around a year, the other is still going strong after three.

http://deleted Jason773

*2) I meant to say med-school lite, not pre-med lite. IMO nursing is even more intensive than your typical pre-med requirements.

Just1X

@Ted

“I’d say lets form a support group, but I’m too in love with myself to care about anyone else. ”

Yeah, but we’re socia-malising here aren’t we?

Quite happily too (as long as I don’t get crucified for #169).

The web works well for me (and ‘INT?’ in general I suspect), because if I’m not in the mood to be sociable, I don’t come here. If the topic isn’t interesting to me at that moment, I go elsewhere. It’s no big deal that “A Story of Harmless Flirting” is not of interest to me – I seriously hate flirting. It appears to me to be 1) a waste of time 2) dishonest 3) playing with my affections (which I am very choosy about who I bestow it on IRL). So, I didn’t read it or comment on it (or don’t remember doing so).

The web allows a buffet style choice of level of intimacy, perfect for ‘INT?’ personalities, or so I would have thought.

Some months ago a woman from NY(?) commented here in a way that could have peed me off, but I left it alone, I can’t remember what she said, but it really rubbed me up the wrong way. Later she explained (not connected to me) that she recognised that she wasn’t very skilled at portraying herself clearly online. She realised this and knew that it occasionally caused problems that she regretted but couldn’t prevent. I had a bingo! moment. Hell, I’m like that, I understand her. It recast the way I read anything that she wrote. Haven’t you noticed that sometimes I fail to hit the right tone around here? And here is where I think I comment as the closest to real-me ™. I don’t pretend anywhere, but the tone here is helpful to release the inner Just1X (thanks Susan)

Escoffier

Well, this is hardly scientific I guess but one of my friends runs a hospital and has been a health care admin his whole career and he insists that nurses are crazy. Like, 90% of them nuts.

Just1X

@Hope

I said ‘these women’, not all women.

And ‘those women’ just told him that he was crap, as were all other available men, are you sure he wasn’t allowed a little snark in reply?

@Escoffier, nice twist of the knife

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Escoffier, even the “top” guys get into relationships and become boyfriends. So that part seems off, too.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

My SO is a medical assistant, and I’ve stated before that several of the younger women she works with appear to me to be very good candidates for LTR/marriage. There might be something to what Jason773 says.

http://deleted Jason773

Escoffier,

IDK how much of that actually is them being crazy as compared to them being worn down by the job. Yes, they get paid decent wages, but nurses in this society are extremely overworked and work some of the worst hours/shift lengths that people can imagine. Also, depending on the type of nursing, they may have to deal with a lot of loss, pain, violence and/gore on the job, making them fairly hardened at work. At home and with a partner, I’ve seen firsthand that their personality takes a complete 180, especially in the presence of someone who is slightly dominant.

Herb

@Jason773 re: Nursing students

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Just1X

@Lokland

I tried the ring thing and whilst I luckily made it out fairly unscathed, I couldn’t recommend it. If you do it, all the best, I hope that it works out.

(think I said that without it sounding like a rant…yay me)

Escoffier

Hope,

Do they? I mean, I guess some must, but by and large? Relative to the less attractive guys? The rate of hot alphas becoming BFs is quite low relative to less attractive betas, right? It’s also a lot easier to score the latter as a BF than the former, right? That’s where the saying comes from.

Herb

@Hope

Escoffier, even the “top” guys get into relationships and become boyfriends. So that part seems off, too.

Wait, I thought hooking up didn’t lead to relationships but that didn’t matter because only the top guys hook up…

Now I’m confuzzled.

Escoffier

I remember once I said to my friend, “So, you’re saying that Nurse Jackie is a reality show?” And he asked, What’s that? and I told him. A few weeks later he had watched a couple of episodes and he said to me “Holy crap that’s EXACTLY what nurses are like!!!”

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Just1X, rereading Lokland’s post at 164, he said “If every woman thinks you’re a loser for having a girlfriend…” then later he didn’t clarify when he said “women saying all the boyfriends are ugly.”

And if I’m reading 162 correctly, Lokland said “at least one girl” in his life said it, but did not elaborate on how many more. So definitely one girl did say it, but does she speak for the rest of “women”?

Herb, plenty of rich and famous men who are lusted after by tons of women get in relationships. Also, the guys that Karen Owen hooked up with apparently had girlfriends… the guys were just cheating on them. Not saying this is a good thing, of course.

Escoffier, that doesn’t mean “ugly.” Is a “7” suddenly “ugly” because she’s not a “10”? Come on. The guys who become boyfriends are by no means ugly, unless the girlfriend wants to denigrate herself and her own tastes.

Just1X

@Tony

“I think college is one of the causes for entitelment in the same way that women would dismiss men with out a degree, you know, projection.”

I was re-iterating Susans meme.
I don’t personally believe it. When I announced I was engaged I had more women lining up infront of me than I had for the previous 3 years of the relationship.

My personal story, which I merely hinted at was that if a woman goes around bitching all boyfriends are ugly or all the hot guys don’t want relationships (which are equivalent statements) and a guy (me) is in earshot. Later when she wants you to be her boyfriend, what dou you think the response would be?

Anyway, if its a relative statement it means that guys continaully hear that boyfriends are losers. No guy is going to willingly join up with that group of individuals even if he is awesome. In doing so he might help out the name of boyfriend or he could also get labelled a loser.

The only guys who would do that are low betas or sigmas.

Jason

Escoffier,

I haven’t seen that show, but I know the premise. I think another reason why your friend thinks what he does is because there is a lot of tension when at work. Nurses tend to get shit on heavily by pompous doctors and patients alike (its unreal how ungreateful some patients are) and this leads to not seeing nurses at their best when at work.

Jason773

Herb,

Field test and come back with some results. Ill keep spreading the good word in the meantime.

Escoffier

Hope, I was after all the one who said it was a relative term. Also, it’s not uncommon. I mean, Susan was using it or at least reporting it well before this thread.

Just1X

@Hope

You may be right, but have a heart, it’s late here (UK) and I’ve had a beer or two (Hobgoblin to be somewhat exact)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wychwood_Brewery#Hobgoblin apparently ‘King Goblin’ (which I now intend to hunt down remorselessly) is available in the States. Prettty strong taste judging by Hobgoblin, not exactly bud.

King Goblin, essentially a stronger and more flavourful variety of Hobgoblin, is a 6.6% abv “Special Reserve” ale.[9] To date it is available bottled in Morrisons supermarkets, Draegers supermarkets in the U.S., and on draught during “real ale” festivals at Wetherspoons pubs.

It is also stated on Wychwood’s site, that King Goblin is only brewed during a full moon.

Herb

@Jason773

I’m a bit too old to be dating undergrads. I try to at least limit my targets to women who were born when I got a driver’s license (so, 28 or older).

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Nursing classes are 90% female, 5% gay males, and 5% straight males.

Oh like the Twilight fandom. Sorry couldn’t resist.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Lokland, if a girl is idiotic enough to say “all boyfriends are ugly,” that doesn’t mean she should represent all girls, just like some random male serial killer doesn’t represent all males.

Do guys really continuously hear that guys in relationships are losers? Funny thing because I hear the opposite a lot of times, as in guys who can’t get girlfriends are the losers. Granted it’s mostly among video gamers or nerds, but I just haven’t heard this before until you guys are making a big stink about it.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Escoffier, no disrespect to you or Susan, but I hang out with a lot of teenagers and 20-somethings of all backgrounds because I play video games, and believe me they talk a lot of junk and use a lot of profanity, so they don’t hold back. I’ve never heard this meme before.

Maybe this is different in colleges on the east coast due to some strange weirdnesses going on there, but at other campuses and for most young folks across America, boyfriends ain’t ugly, period.

Escoffier

I believe Susan heard it from her focus group so it must be out there somewhere.

Charm

@VD

Well, I didn’t realize you were hired on as the HUS thread police. I’ll file it under “good to know”.

Lokland

@Hope

You know whats funny, I used to think that. During high school I thought having a girlfriend would make me the king shit.
Then I got to uni and the bar was raised. My alph buddy (the one who fucked his roomates girlfriend) said something along the lines, this isn’t highschool anymore, you have to fuck them first.

“if a girl is idiotic enough to say “all boyfriends are ugly,” that doesn’t mean she should represent all girls, just like some random male serial killer doesn’t represent all males.”

Actually, by current logical standards it does. All men are born to be rapists, if we don’t its cause we can’t. I’m sure murderer will hit the list by 2020.
Do all women think that, no. Do a percentage do, yes. For some reason their also the loudest.

Personally, I believe there are TONS of women like you, Ana and Saywhaat out there. Like crawling out of the wood work hurting horribly to have a boyfriend.
I didn’t realise that before I came here.
I just think the annoying crowd is over-represented by a lot in the media. And to them, boyfriend = loser.

Look at most of the big time super hero movies now,
the only way to be cool, is to be a complete lazy prig with no work effort but an overload of talent that scores some awesome job that allows you to drink all night with the two cuties from the bar. Then the next morning you see them leave with the frilly bit of their lingerie caught around their ankle.

The common factor, the single player is cool. The nerd with a girlfriend is a loser. The nerd with no girlfriend is either subhuman or doesn’t exist.

Herb

@Hope

Do guys really continuously hear that guys in relationships are losers? Funny thing because I hear the opposite a lot of times, as in guys who can’t get girlfriends are the losers. Granted it’s mostly among video gamers or nerds, but I just haven’t heard this before until you guys are making a big stink about it.

In one sense they do…most married men tell their single friends never to get married because married life is like having a gf but the shrew is turned up to 11 and she quits having sex with you.

Now, admittedly this is not a new idea (“The only really happy folk are married women and single men. ” is an H L Mencken quote after all), but looking at a lot of the married men I know and how the media likes to portray husbands I suspect it has more truth for my generation than my father’s generation.

Just1X

@Hope #196

I thought kvetching about their boyfriends was de rigeur for many women…I’m happy but surprised that you’ve never heard of it.

Us menz jus’ bein’ all ‘motional, I guess. All those tv shows / adverts showing men as being doofuses having to have mommy hold our hands must have worn us down to our emotional nubbins.

Catch you later, I’m off for a movie

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Well clearly the media and the few loud voices from crappy women win this round

/gives up

I’m going home early so sayonara. 😛

Just1X

@Hope #197

OH, YOU have a personal anecdote!

Oh okay then, forget anybody claiming any other experiences, they must be delusional.

Now, admittedly this is not a new idea (“The only really happy folk are married women and single men. ” is an H L Mencken quote after all), but looking at a lot of the married men I know and how the media likes to portray husbands I suspect it has more truth for my generation than my father’s generation.

At the risk of getting stoned here. IME many married men assume that going back to be single will be the best thing ever and better than being married, till they actually are. If you notice men remarried faster and at highest rates than women. If being married was so bad why are they coming back for seconds? I also had plenty of friends that though they wanted to get rid of the wife, got caught cheating celebrated a few months their freedom and then went back crawling for forgiveness…so yeah I know is different circumstances and men here have a lot to lose with a divorce but I get the feeling there are many of them with sort of “do what I say not what I do” and “I love to bitch about something I love”
I also had a couple of friends with kids telling everyone not to have children and yet they get pregnant every two years, something does not compute, YMMV.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Catch you later, I’m off for a movie

I hope is not Mirror, Mirror I spent five dollars watching that and I think is the biggest waste of five dollars I had ever done in my entire life.
I heard from people that went to watch Wrath of Titans for free that they felt cheated out so hoping is not that one either or at least that you like it.

Herb

@Ana

If you notice men remarried faster and at highest rates than women. If being married was so bad why are they coming back for seconds?

Most formerly married men didn’t choose to be that way. Wives file for 70% of divorces. Women seem to act more on the belief that single life is better than marriage, although the manosphere theory (I think with some support) is that they expect to trade up.

I suspect for a lot of men it’s more “grass is greener” than “I really hate this”. However, I think this might be changing.

For a long time I wanted to be married again and if I believed it was realistically in the cards might still try (although now that I’m moving ahead monetarily I don’t want the financial risk again). Marriage is a young man’s folly and an old man’s comfort – Robert Heinlein (in Starship Troopers no less).

A big issue I see, more for people under 35ish than my age, is fewer and fewer women want to be married and be partners they want to get married and be a princess. This is, in some ways, I think what happened to me. The getting married was a focus but what it meant to be married was not big in her mind or planning. Thus, when marriage turned out to be both work and compromise she didn’t like it. The fact she had divorced parents probably did not help.

However, my generation still had about half of us with models at home and cultural models of married life as a partnership, not super wife with 3 kids including the husband.

So, to qualify. I think guys over 35 and on their first marriage it’s just beer talk. Guys under 35 it’s probably something deeper. Regardless, I suspect more and more men under 30 are taking it seriously and not considering marriage.

This does relate to my asking (as well as others) where are all the articles about where have all the good women gone. While I think in some ways men derive more in old age from marriage, women derive more from getting marriage and the early years (see Susan’s quoting of the 4-7 year window of monogamy women seemed to have instinctively). So, for most men not getting married, especially in an SMP where sex is easily gotten, isn’t as upsetting until mid-30s at the earliest (see Tucker Max’s retirement). However, if you’ve fucked your way through sluts until 35 you don’t have illusions about marriageable women existing (or perhaps better said, you have the illusion they don’t…YMMV).

Women, on the other hand, seem to think men magically become marriageable instead of cads at their desire and that illusion blows up on them.

Long winded, but you got me rambling.

tldr; Most men do eventually want to marry but I suspect they are getting less happy with the options (even the ones they choose) over time.

J

Nursing classes are 90% female, 5% gay males, and 5% straight males.

Oh like the Twilight fandom.

LMAO!

Sassy6519

@ Anacaona

I hope is not Mirror, Mirror I spent five dollars watching that and I think is the biggest waste of five dollars I had ever done in my entire life.
I heard from people that went to watch Wrath of Titans for free that they felt cheated out so hoping is not that one either or at least that you like it.

I know this was directed at Just1x, but I’m also heading to the theaters fairly soon. I’m going to see Titanic in 3D.

I’m a sucker for that movie.

J

I also had a couple of friends with kids telling everyone not to have children and yet they get pregnant every two years, something does not compute.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Kids are both fun to have and fun to complain about. I threaten mine with death on a daily basis, but woe to anyone else who does likewise.

Herb

To go with Susan’s good character as something to have on offer, I have a very specific element of it that jumped out reading the OP:

Nobody likes a bitch who’s “always right, even when I’m not” either.

A very popular pop culture meme since the early 90s (I first noticed it on the Rosanne show to give you an idea) is that no matter who started the fight or who was right, the husband has to apologize.

I know a lot of married men who say their wifes pretty much expect that as the rule.

Don’t be that woman…it’s not good in finding or keeping a man and it’s not good for you.

J

J, I think co-dependency is just a semantic difference from inter-dependency.

Not to nitpick, but “codependency” is a mental health term, not a synonym for interdependence, which is a healthy, normal state of affairs in relationships. According to Wikipedia, “Codependency (or codependence, co-narcissism or inverted narcissism) is unhealthy love and a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that harm one’s relationships and quality of life. It also often involves placing a lower priority on one’s own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others.[1] Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.[1] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns.[1] Narcissists are considered to be natural magnets for the codependent.”

Sorry, I don’t mean to rudely call you out on an error, but I think your words carry weight among the readers of this blog, and it’s important to clear about what you mean to advocate, especially as one thing is perfectly normal and healthy and the other is an emotional issue that may require treatment. For example, an interdependent wife sews buttons on her husband’s coat while he changes the oil in her car. A codependent wife enables her addict husband to get high when he should be at the parole officer’s office. Because I have work experience in dealing with codependents, I think it looks to me like you are saying something you can’t actually mean, and it’s jarring to me.

Cooper

@Susan
[quote]I would be wary of any girl who has never been single for a period of time. Some girls audition guy friends for the boyfriend role the minute their relationship ends.[/quote] (my first quotation attempt, *fingers crossed)

Can you elaborate on this?

Why would one be wary of a girl who has been single for a duration?

And for the second half, well, I don’t know how to comment.

Simply, how is that acceptable?

It’s no wonder guys are so sensitive to being LJFBed.
I think that statement speaks a thousand words.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Cooper

A woman who always, always has a boyfriend, IMO, is saying something about her inability to be independent, even for a short time. These girls often go from one relationship to another in a matter of a few weeks, even if the breakup was rough. I’ve seen women give guy friends the starring role suddenly when they wanted a new bf. The guys go for it – such a surprise to get out of the friend zone! But I would be wary because the guy is just filling a slot, the relationship doesn’t really include two people who are crazy about each other. Of course, a guy may be delighted to be used in that way, as long as he doesn’t get his heart broken.

Cooper

Bah! My quotation attempt (^above) failed!!

J

Okay, now I’ll concur 100%. I originally thought it meant the exact opposite of that.

It’s like “enervated” and “fulsome..” Most people think they mean the opposite of what they mean.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@J

It’s like “enervated” and “fulsome..” Most people think they mean the opposite of what they mean.

It’s funny you should say that. I’m reading that horrendous book 50 Shades of Grey – I’m going to write a post on it – and it’s the worst writing I’ve ever seen. At one point, the author writes that the main character “exercises excess enervating energy.” (She went for a run.) I felt like calling people up and reading them that sentence. I plan to include it in my post.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

@Herb
Of course I don’t want to invalidate the ones that are really hurting in marriage and I think you probably are right about the breakdown and the fact that most men don’t want to get divorced thus if they find a good woman again they will open to go back to marriage.
Of course from the “grass is greener” group I do think that there is some envy going on most men that haven’t taken the red pill assume that if they know many single men are having lots of sex they will just need to try and they will be swimming on punning too and if the ring theory is right they probably get hit a lot more married than when they were single so they assume they are more sexy now. Is not until they are in the market again that things get real to them and they can see is not as green except maybe for the top 20% of them of course, YMMV.
I’m sorry to hear that you have abandoned your illusions of getting married again, hopefully you can meet one woman that change your mind and some point and I tell you because I think marriage done right is one of the best way for everyone male or female to live life, YMMV again.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Kids are both fun to have and fun to complain about.

Heh so true but then how about the ones that do listen and don’t have kids thinking they are the end of the world? Those people can’t really tell this after all, since they don’t have their own children.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

@Sassy
Enjoy! and bring tissues. 😉

J

Heh so true but then how about the ones that do listen and don’t have kids thinking they are the end of the world? Those people can’t really tell this after all, since they don’t have their own children.

IDK. You just can’t go around believing everything you hear, even from the same person. I myself can wax poetic on how great having kids, or I can swear a blue streak aboout my sons being inconsiderate and selfish. (You wouldn’t believe the mess they created while I was in the hospital!) It all depends on what’s happening, but I think it would be pretty obvious to a discerning person that I adore my boys.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

but I think it would be pretty obvious to a discerning person that I adore my boys.

1) who says I wasn’t being serious? (I mean, I wasn’t, but how did you know?)
2) why is it you think that Hope needs protection? She seems miffed at the moment, but perfectly capable of standing her ground. bit sexist of you mate.
3) white knight? no wonder you’ve got woman problems. pussy begging doesn’t work, that’s Roissy 101.
4) I counted, I only had 1 bottle of beer, how many have you had? you seem confused with whom you’re fighting. (not that I care, it’s too late here to continue tonight even if I could be bothereed, which I can’t).

chill out mate

A definite beta guy

Am I the only entj here?

Just1X

@Ana

not “mirror, mirror” (thanks for the warning though as some of the descriptions make it sound ‘potentially viable’, maybe even as high as ‘possible’). I ended up just clearing something off my ~tivo. Time got away with me, too late for a film.

The film that I am considering, that some here might have seen, is “The Hunger Games”. Now I read the books last week and really enjoyed them* but the reviews are mixed (at best). But they seem to be written by people who just watched the film rather than read the books.

(for clarity. I have NEVER considered reading HP, have watched some of the movies (mehhhh). Twilight? get knotted! no way, ever will I watch or read that stuff. *Deep breathes, recovers calm*)

Anyway…is the film any good?

The criticisms that I’ve seen are

1) glorifies murder of kids by kids.
Well, the books don’t, very much not the case.

2) Katniss has no agency; she doesn’t make decisions or kill people (except when begged), things just happen to her.
This isn’t my reading of the books either. She doesn’t go toe to toe with guys twice her size (which makes the books more believable than Xena / Buffy etc), but she makes decisions and kills baddies. Alright, there is a major issue that is left to slide, but (see 3)

3) too hung up on what she wears (lady-fiction I guess).
Can’t say it worried me, not a biggy. The bigger issue of ‘who’ (if you catch my drift) which could have murdered the books for me was handled acceptably in the books.

4) the colour of Rue.
couldn’t care less. the actress looks like she’d make a good Rue. I had pictured her as white, but only because I missed the ‘dark skin’ description claimed to be in the book, and thought that as she reminded Katniss of Prim so much, she’d be the same colour – my bad + I don’t care.

So, is it worth seeing? or wait for the disc?

(may not catch any replies tonight, but thanks for any opinions of the movie)

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

I saw the Hunger Games last weekend, and thought it was great. The crowd was definitely half male, so it’s not a chick flick.

I too loved the books. I think the film does a good job of adapting the book to film – it helps that Suzanne Collins adapted the screenplay. The acting is good – some of it is actually fantastic. And the visuals are pretty extraordinary, as you might expect.

) glorifies murder of kids by kids.

Totally disagree, the film is true to the book.

2) Katniss has no agency; she doesn’t make decisions or kill people (except when begged), things just happen to her.

She only kills one person in the film – and it’s a reflex when Rue is shot. I think she’s a bit more passive in the film – not as feisty or capable. I did have the feeling that she was awfully lucky, as opposed to clever.

I’ve read one article about this that was written to take issue with feminists’ glorifying of Katniss as an empowered feminist (gag me). You might find it interesting:

That’s ridiculous, she spends most of the movie in cargo pants and a navy windbreaker. There are the costumes of course, but that’s a key part of the plot.

4) the colour of Rue.

I have found this very bizarre. TLP talks about this too – Jezebel took a handful of comments and created a race crisis. I knew she was black from the book, and the girl who plays her is perfect. So beautiful and sweet, they couldn’t have cast it better.

Here’s a funny tidbit:

People on Team Peeta for the romance were wearing shirts that said: Peeniss

Just1X

@Ana

Titanic?
“Enjoy! and bring tissues.”

I would have thought that a rubber raft and paddle would have been a better bet.

In fact take lots of them, you’ll make a fortune selling them, or make a lot of friends.

Just1X

Sorry for 225, off to bed now

Cooper

@A definite beta guy
“Am I the only entj here?”

*points to Charm*

INTJ

@Susan

Yeah I’m not in any rush to get married. But just want to start being on the lookout for a potential partner and plan how I’m going to search for someone when I enter my late 20s. Just the INTJ in me planning and strategizing. 😉

@Jason773

That’s great advice. I’ve been through several surgeries, I was amazed by how caring nurses (both male and female) were. This is the kind of person I’d want as a wife and mother. Additionally, nursing is definitely a demanding degree and profession, so anybody who goes through that has her act together.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Twilight? get knotted! no way, ever will I watch or read that stuff. *Deep breathes, recovers calm*

Your lost. 😉

Anyway…is the film any good?

Err not a fan so I don’t know.
My husband read a review that someone said that the movie made him feel uncomfortable but so far the fans of the gooks seem pleased so you should to. I think.

I would have thought that a rubber raft and paddle would have been a better bet.

Good one.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Sorry I meant your lose.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, I understand the clinical definition, but I still don’t see it as a bad thing. I’m referencing this article:

It’s like the word “nerdy.” To some it might be an insult or be a bad thing, but I embrace it and even prefer it. It depends on your viewpoint.

Jesus Mahoney

FWIW, I heard this term used by women when talking about their “personality crushes” on less cute guys who were good guys. I kid you not. Two of them were getting with guys at least 2 points lower in SMV. It was a great example of women assessing the market and recalibrating. Yes, those guys had a shot because men of the girls’ own SMV were not interested in monogamy. Good for them, that’s what a lopsided sex ratio will get you.

One of those relationships lasted around a year, the other is still going strong after three.

Has the man in the still-going-strong relationship ever heard his gf say this?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Has the man in the still-going-strong relationship ever heard his gf say this?

Doubt it.

Iggles

@ Anacaona:

At the risk of getting stoned here. IME many married men assume that going back to be single will be the best thing ever and better than being married, till they actually are. If you notice men remarried faster and at highest rates than women. If being married was so bad why are they coming back for seconds? I also had plenty of friends that though they wanted to get rid of the wife, got caught cheating celebrated a few months their freedom and then went back crawling for forgiveness…so yeah I know is different circumstances and men here have a lot to lose with a divorce but I get the feeling there are many of them with sort of “do what I say not what I do” and “I love to bitch about something I love”

+1

The meme is so anti-marriage these days. Divorce rates are often cited but there are an awful lot of happy marriages.

A relationship can be good or bad, but at the end of the day most of us don’t want to be alone. We want to find a connection with another human being, and while we’ve all have had bad experiences with dating most of us feel finding the right person is worth enduring all we have.

J

“exercises excess enervating energy.”

Ooooo, aliteration! That is so hawt.

The book sounds even crappier than I imagined. How is that even possible?

A Definite Beta Guy

Well, Coop, thank god there are some other ENTJs here. The world needs Field Marshals too!

J

@Hope

Ah, now that I’ve read your link, I see where you are coming from. I think the author has sort of a poor understanding of what co-dependency is. Being opposed to co-dependency (in the clinical sense) doesn’t mean being opposed to selfless giving in a relationship; it’s being opposed to enabling destructive behavior that hurts both parties. I understand the author’s point of view, but he really does misuse the term.

I guess that, as a term, “co-dependent” has gone the way of “self-esteem.” Both have a specific clinical meaning but the popular (mis)usage of the terms and the connotations that have grown up around them make them unclear and hard to use.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

“exercises excess enervating energy.”
Ooooo, aliteration! That is so hawt.

It sounds unreadable to me. I had been trying to understand what the hell does that means since Susan posted it with no luck. Say what you like about Twilight but at least I understood it. Another reason not to read this one.

J

Well, Ana, don’t feel too bad. English is my first language, and I don’t know what that sentence means. The character was letting out excess energy by exercising perhaps?

My initial reaction to that sentence was, “Wow, the author really shat herself a pantload on that one.” The book sounds unreadable, which is amazing when you consider that it’s about sex. I mean I’ll forgive a lot if I’m interested in a topic, but I don’t plan on reading this one.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The character was letting out excess energy by exercising perhaps?

Yes, that’s it. Using the word enervating (drained of energy) next to energy is just terrible. I’ve heard the woman now has an American editor – when it comes out in print I’m sure they’ll have cleaned up these egregious errors.

Alias

Hope:
“It’s not like the guy wants the girl to be his wife right away. In the beginning, he just wants to be friends in order to evaluate her potential for anything else. If she fails, then she stays friendzoned.”
———
What would happen if the guy becomes attached but the girl’s only interested in LJBF?

Alias

Hope:
“If you do develop romantic feelings later, don’t be afraid to pursue things, but also don’t make her a priority if she doesn’t feel the same way. Find other female friends and focus on them.”
——
I didn’t miss this part of your post.
I’m just wondering how it works if the guy is the type that doesn’t find it easy to move on even when the girl’s feelings aren’t reciprocated, but I suppose it’s important for the guy to know himself and, as you stated, keep other girl friends on the side.

This is somewhat tricky for me to “get” because I was raised in an environment where girls and guys weren’t friends.

Just1X

@J

“English is my first language, and I don’t know what that sentence means.”

me neither, it’s appalling.

Wasn’t it written as fan fiction originally, they then changed the names and sold it? (not sure of what it was fan-fiction, probably don’t want to know).

The feminists must be appalled. It’s going to be a hard sell that the women are empowering themselves by being subs. Mind you, the Spice Grills did it. They demanded the right to prance around in tight costumes that men liked – you go gyrlz. Demi Moore did it for Striptease (thank you Demi). Oh, and Showgirls did something similar (gets misty eyed, good times (leave the sound off guys)).

I’m not claiming overall moral superiority for da menz, just that we’re a bit harder to sell pseudo-empowerment to. Clue – they use sex to sell us tat. “buy more – get more” FFS

@Susan
“Peeniss”? oh god
Sounds as bad as the twilight mums. I swear that if you reverse the genders and had twilight dads drooling (mentally and literally) over the teenage female vamp leader…well, the cops would be called, the men locked up, their children taken and they’d be registered as sex offenders.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

It is Twilight fan fiction – the main characters are meant to be Edward and Bella in another story.

The feminists must be appalled. It’s going to be a hard sell that the women are empowering themselves by being subs.

Yes, this is one of the more interesting angles to the phenom, one that I’m exploring for the post. What does it say about women that they rush to read a story about submissiveness?

Just1X

@Susan

thanks for your review and the link. I think I’ll go see the film when the sprogs are back in school (not my sprogs, I hasten to add).

I liked his review as well, but again he’s reviewing the film without having read the books. I haven’t seen the film, so his review might well be accurate (of the film), but I’m not going to see it in the same way.

Just1X

“What does it say about women that they rush to read a story about submissiveness?”

Well, there can be a big difference between reading porn and what you actually do in real life, so I wouldn’t automatically assume that all women actually want to do that stuff. But it kind of supports the Roissy point of view that demonstrating dominance can work with some women.

Also, this could be a sign of the times. When I were a lad, I got the impression that a lot of the customers of Dom women were powerful men IRL. Kind of unleashing their inner sub, that didn’t get out much in their life. Now with more women in power, perhaps the spiked heel is on the other foot?

Birching scene from The Convent School by Rosa Coote (1876).
The English Vice (from French le vice anglais) is a term for erotic flagellation that came up in Europe in the 18th/19th century. It reflects the common belief that the sexual passion for whipping and spanking is a trend that has its origins and/or main fandom in England.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

I always thought the English vice was homoeroticism in boarding schools, resulting in a surprisingly large number of Sebastian Flytes.

Just1X

Oh! the injustice…

Ramble

Just1xSounds as bad as the twilight mums. I swear that if you reverse the genders and had twilight dads drooling (mentally and literally) over the teenage female vamp leader…well, the cops would be called, the men locked up, their children taken and they’d be registered as sex offenders.

Speaking of Fifty Shades of Grey, Audible.com just emailed me about it as a surprise best seller.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

My SO told me the younger girls at work are buzzing about this stupid book. One of them even told her about how she got so hot and bothered reading it that she attacked her fiance. I wonder how thrilled he would be if he knew WHY she was so wound up?…

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

meh, on second thought most guys probably wouldn’t care as long as they were getting hot sex. I guess I’m my own worst enemy. 😛

Jesus Mahoney

Has the man in the still-going-strong relationship ever heard his gf say this?

Doubt it.

Sometimes the world just makes me sick.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

I’m worried about putting up my 50 Shades post. I feel like it’s going to send you to the dark side forever, and destroy your wonderful relationship.

Speaking of which, Rollo is waiting breathlessly for you over at his place, like a virgin on her wedding night.

It’s him or me, Jesus. You choose an asshole alpha, we’re done. 😉

Escoffier

“I always thought the English vice was homoeroticism in boarding schools”

me too

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

JM – “Sometimes the world just makes me sick.”

ya know I was joking yesterday when I said “welcome to my world”, right? You really don’t need to hang out here. 😛

J

Wasn’t it written as fan fiction originally, they then changed the names and sold it? (not sure of what it was fan-fiction, probably don’t want to know).

That would explain a lot.

“Peeniss”? oh god

Hey, maybe I’ll write some Hunger Games fanfic, switch the genders and call the hero Peeniss, you know, like Katniss and Peeta combined. It’ll be cool, I know I can you it because I can misuse SAT words as well as the next gal, maybe even better.

J

Yes, that’s it. Using the word enervating (drained of energy) next to energy is just terrible. I’ve heard the woman now has an American editor – when it comes out in print I’m sure they’ll have cleaned up these egregious errors.

You know, I went to bed last night wondering if there were no more editors. Or maybe “enervating energy” is an oxymoron? Or maybe the writer is an ox-y moron. It’s hard to say.

“Egregious”? That means really excellent, right?

Srsly, horrid proofreader that I admit to being, the misuse of language STILL drives me nuts.

J

Rollo is waiting breathlessly for you over at his place, like a virgin on her wedding night. . You choose an asshole alpha, we’re done.

LMAO. You slay me, SW.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

LMAO. You slay me, SW.

Ha, I’m not even joking. He combs the comments here and is tingling because JM left a comment saying he was going to rethink his stance on Rollo. Now he’s warning his perpetually angry and snarky readers to be nice to Jesus when he shows up.

I feel like I’m back in sixth grade. I could outrun the biggest bully in the class then too.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

I will admit it took all I had NOT to start a rant when my SO brought the book up. Not so much the book itself, but the comment her co-worker made about getting hot and attacking her fiance really set my blood boiling. I made a comment that I would be less than pleased to find out, and she asked why. I told her that the “men” in those types of emo-porn novels are about as intimidating to many men as your average female porn star is to most women. She started to say something and probably saw the look on my face and figured she’d let it go.

For the record she does not nor has she ever read romance novels. But, all the talk around her office got her wondering why this book was so special.

I will read it if you post it, but I can’t promise I will stick around and participate. My reaction to the conversation at home earlier this week tells me THIS is a real hot-button for me…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

I told her that the “men” in those types of emo-porn novels are about as intimidating to many men as your average female porn star is to most women.

That’s understandable. I think there’s value in writing about it, mostly because I think both Maureen Dowd and Roissy got it wrong, at least partly. I’m on a mission to discover the truth about this phenomenon – it really has taken the publishing world by storm.

I’ll understand if you don’t want to discuss it, though I predict the comments will really soar on this one. I’m hoping to have it up tomorrow.

Just1X

@Susan et tu ‘scoffier

happy to say that I never went to public school (which is what you call private school) let alone boarding school. And as far as I am concerned, “What goes on in public school, stays in public school” and then moves on to Cynthia Payne’s place

Having said that, as long as I don’t have to watch or take part, I don’t care what two(+) consenting adults get up to in private.

Ramble

Not so fast. I just finished the book, and there’s no question. She bends him to her will in the end. Lots to tease out here.

You didn’t ask, “What does the story mean?”.

You asked, “Why do women rush to read a story about being submissive to a man?”

And, again, it means exactly what you think it means.

Now, what sort of story does the writer ultimately communicate, that is a different question.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

You asked, “Why do women rush to read a story about being submissive to a man?”

And, again, it means exactly what you think it means.

It depends on what women are hearing and what is inspiring them to buy the book. It’s all word of mouth – there’s been no advertising. It’s only available on ereaders. It’s all quite fascinating, from a marketing standpoint.

In addition, the second and third books are selling just as much. So we know that the main character’s dominating the dom (not sexually) at the end of book one spurred people on to buy the next installment.

I’m convinced this says a lot about both female sexuality and feminism – still trying to tease out the relationships. I won’t be able to say for sure – should make for a good discussion.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Another thing, I’m wondering if what Jesus is going through is something that commonly happens first relationship post red pill? Technically my current SO is my first red pill relationship, and I find myself thinking of things I NEVER would have considered before. Sometimes it’s almost as if my SO represents two people: the person I know, love, and trust, and the person who is female. Learning all this stuff about female “sexual nature” often forces me to see her as the second more than the first, and it isn’t a very comfortable feeling.

Ramble

It’s him or me, Jesus. You choose an asshole alpha, we’re done.

I understand that it was said in jest, but…

You write, mostly, for girls. Rollo writes, mostly, for guys. And, each with a different intent.

What if we had a Susan Walsh that wrote for men? That might be a place that could restore a man’s faith in humanity.

Ramble

It depends on what women are hearing and what is inspiring them to buy the book.

Good point.

Herb

@Ted D

My SO told me the younger girls at work are buzzing about this stupid book. One of them even told her about how she got so hot and bothered reading it that she attacked her fiance. I wonder how thrilled he would be if he knew WHY she was so wound up?…

I’m sure he’d be just as fine with as if he attacked her after watching a couple of hours of Jenna Jameison’s finest porn.

Same thing, right?

Just1X

“Not so fast. I just finished the book, and there’s no question. She bends him to her will in the end.”

Nice, what a great option for marriage

decision making problems AND control issues.

It’d be a tough choice; marry her, or go under knife of whasserface from grey’s anatomy

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, a lot of technical terms used in medicine, psychology, technology, etc. have other meanings in popular usage. The word interdependent also has its own usage among biology and polisci folks and isn’t usually applied to psychology. Maybe I’ll just avoid both words altogether and use “bonded.”

Jesus Mahoney

Ha, I’m not even joking. He combs the comments here and is tingling because JM left a comment saying he was going to rethink his stance on Rollo. Now he’s warning his perpetually angry and snarky readers to be nice to Jesus when he shows up.

Yea, look at that.

I’ve been looking into the whole 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon and hearing about it from some people and the whole thing is revolting to me. I guess I really have been naive. As far as my relationship goes, Idk. Her vacation started today, but I’ve been putting her off since the other night, telling her I’ve been busy–which isn’t a total lie.

I’ve just been feeling physically ill the last couple of days.

Stingray

Susan, out of curiosity why do you keep reading Rollo’s stuff? Or are the commenters here telling you what’s going on there as well?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Susan, out of curiosity why do you keep reading Rollo’s stuff? Or are the commenters here telling you what’s going on there as well?

I only become aware of it when he links to me, which he does with some regularity. In this case, his commenter linked, but I didn’t know why until I went over and had a look.

I’d be delighted if Rollo would kill those links. I don’t want traffic from his site, and I don’t care to know what’s being said in the sewing circle.

J

He combs the comments here and is tingling because JM left a comment saying he was going to rethink his stance on Rollo. Now he’s warning his perpetually angry and snarky readers to be nice to Jesus when he shows up.

That’s pretty funny, in and of itself. The personal dynamics get weird in this corner of the net.

Jonny

“Most formerly married men didn’t choose to be that way. Wives file for 70% of divorces. Women seem to act more on the belief that single life is better than marriage, although the manosphere theory (I think with some support) is that they expect to trade up.”

I can confirm this for myself. My first marriage failure was due to my wife’s decision to divorce me. Of course, the marriage wasn’t working and I felt she was sabotaging any attempt at reconciliation. Ultimately, she wanted to trade up. She thought she could do better, but life has its own way of working to the man’s advantage.

I didn’t want to remarry. In fact, I waited 8 years until I was ready again. I was burned badly and didn’t want to rush things. I found someone 10 years younger with barely any sexual history. Thus, I won. Now, I have a kid and my current marriage is lasting much longer than the first.

And BTW, my ex never remarried. She is still living with her parents. She is almost 50.

Just1X

@JM

Sorry if I’m misreading you, I think that I’ve missed stuff on other threads and way back in history…but ‘she’ hasn’t changed at all as you’ve been reading that mindless pap. If you’re still internally processing generalised guff from the internet, I’d hold off making big decisions (if I were you, FWIW YMMV IMHO). I’m not saying that stuff you’ve read isn’t true of most or some women, but I have always been convinced that NAWALT – Not All Women Are Like That. I don’t bother to fight people over it because there’s no point, but I know some women who are NLT ergo NAWALT.

Unless you were planning on getting married this weekend (I don’t recommend this – but you already know that), why rush to make decisions affecting your and her future? She hasn’t changed, your ideas are in motion, not reality.

In my experience, and from what I’ve seen in others, taking the red pill is generally very painful as it feels like the whole world has been lying to you and manipulating you (YMMV). However, after an intial angry period, most re-pillers relax and enjoy life more. As I’ve said before, men’s reactions tend to be “okay, so now I’m seeing reality…hmmmm…I can deal with this. Let’s go”. Things get better as you learn to recognise when people try to manipulate you (shaming language etc). I recommend MGTOW (not the celibate monk version, but YOUR way).

The funny(?) thing is that I come here to HUS to improve my view of humanity (or 51% of it) and it has been working (still can’t envisage ever getting married / co-habiting though).

Very sorry if I’ve misread your mental state, but I don’t like seeing people I like in pain. I don’t see you in me, or vice versa, but you appear to be in the medically recognised ‘choking on the red pill state’ and things get better afterward.

J

J, a lot of technical terms used in medicine, psychology, technology, etc. have other meanings in popular usage.

That’s true. And since I read your link, I see that the author means something like, “Hey don’t be so afraid of being “codependent” that you can’t give selflessly to your spouse.”

I agree with the concept, but it’s sort of a pet peeve of mine when technical terms become “cocktail party words” and lose meaning. For example, one might hear at a party that another guest is neurotic or paranoid or ADD. I’ve actually asked people if that person is being treated or if what they really mean the person is nervous, suspicious of others, or inattentive. And, if there really is a problem, I explain how to get help, especially since these are fairly common problems.

That “codependent” has now apparently made it into popular use as a synonym for “clingy,” bugs me. When I hear codependent, I hear that someone is enabling an addict or is locked in a relationship with a pathological narcissist (as opposed to a merely conceited person). That can be a very dangerous situation.

Maybe I’ll just avoid both words altogether and use “bonded.”

No, don’t bother to change on my account. But I’m glad we clarified this and that I saw the link. I didn’t realize that “codependent” had worked it’s way so far into popular usage. Thanks.

Jesus Mahoney

Just1x

Sorry if I’m misreading you, I think that I’ve missed stuff on other threads and way back in history…but ‘she’ hasn’t changed at all as you’ve been reading that mindless pap. If you’re still internally processing generalised guff from the internet, I’d hold off making big decisions (if I were you, FWIW YMMV IMHO). I’m not saying that stuff you’ve read isn’t true of most or some women, but I have always been convinced that NAWALT – Not All Women Are Like That. I don’t bother to fight people over it because there’s no point, but I know some women who are NLT ergo NAWALT.

Thanks for the advice. I haven’t actually read all of 50 Shades–I don’t think I could tolerate it–but between the bits I’ve seen and the things I’ve heard, I’m sickened. The stuff we’ve been discussing here seem to be about human nature and, in particular, female human nature. Could be that not all women are like this. That’s a hopeful thought. I hope it applies to my gf.

Unless you were planning on getting married this weekend (I don’t recommend this – but you already know that), why rush to make decisions affecting your and her future? She hasn’t changed, your ideas are in motion, not reality.

Right. I guess I’m just seeing reality more clearly. Which is a good thing, of course. I’m not making any decisions yet.

In my experience, and from what I’ve seen in others, taking the red pill is generally very painful as it feels like the whole world has been lying to you and manipulating you (YMMV). However, after an intial angry period, most re-pillers relax and enjoy life more. As I’ve said before, men’s reactions tend to be “okay, so now I’m seeing reality…hmmmm…I can deal with this. Let’s go”. Things get better as you learn to recognise when people try to manipulate you (shaming language etc). I recommend MGTOW (not the celibate monk version, but YOUR way).

Yea, I guess this is just red pill 2.0.

The funny(?) thing is that I come here to HUS to improve my view of humanity (or 51% of it) and it has been working (still can’t envisage ever getting married / co-habiting though).

Yea, that works for me sometimes. But I see that a lot of my optimism has been rooted in misunderstandings and ignorance.

Very sorry if I’ve misread your mental state, but I don’t like seeing people I like in pain. I don’t see you in me, or vice versa, but you appear to be in the medically recognised ‘choking on the red pill state’ and things get better afterward.

Thanks, bro. Sorry to be a downer here. I’ll live.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

A note to Jesus and other guys swallowing the red pill:

I will never lie to you about female sexuality. That includes not making stuff up, and not repressing credible information. I would caution you, however, from entering the Dark and dehumanizing world of misogyny. Yes, misogyny. If you hate female nature, you hate women. And once you go there, your life will never be the same, and you will be incapable of a fully intimate and rewarding relationship. If you already have a healthy relationship, this is the way to murder it.

When choosing whom you would keep company with, ask yourself if you want to wind up like them (or their commenters). Proceed with extreme caution.

Jason773

Ted D,

Another thing, I’m wondering if what Jesus is going through is something that commonly happens first relationship post red pill? Technically my current SO is my first red pill relationship, and I find myself thinking of things I NEVER would have considered before. Sometimes it’s almost as if my SO represents two people: the person I know, love, and trust, and the person who is female. Learning all this stuff about female “sexual nature” often forces me to see her as the second more than the first, and it isn’t a very comfortable feeling.

Yup, I am going through this exact same thing. It really is a drag in many ways.

For me, the least funny parts were the actual “reenactments” of the Twilight scenes and the funniest parts were the guys being able to say, in polite society, that the movie had great writing and great acting.

But, the best part was the look from the girlfriend at 0:34. She is simply looking at the ground as her boyfriend says how great the movie was. Perfect.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

JM, what is “female nature” as you understand it? What is “human nature” as you understand it?

Is it bad that women are naturally submissive, and is it bad that women fantasize about other men who are dominant figures?

Is it bad that men are visual creatures, and get turned on seeing attractive females even if they aren’t his gf/wife/significant other?

We are embodied souls. Don’t deny the physical.

I think you have a “blockage” that makes it difficult for the energy to flow up to your heart. You are shutting down your heart in a fear response.

Won’t say much more than that lest I sound like a new age loony, but suffice it to say, you’re still growing and learning. Hopefully you’ll come out of this wiser and more balanced.

Ramble

Yup, I am going through this exact same thing. It really is a drag in many ways.

Jason, I would have figured you took the “red pill” a long time ago. No?

Herb

@Ramble

But, the best part was the look from the girlfriend at 0:34. She is simply looking at the ground as her boyfriend says how great the movie was. Perfect.

That’s also my favorite part. Perhaps women who thinking raving about prior alpha partners to their beta bfs should be required to view it immediately after such raving, over and over until the same amount of time has passed.

Jesus Mahoney

Hope,

Yea, it’s bad that women fantasize about dominant men other than their mates.

Just1X

@JM

“Thanks, bro. Sorry to be a downer here. I’ll live.”

s’allright, been there.

things sound like they’re looking up for you in life, sometimes you need to remember this. You haven’t made any big mistakes, so you don’t need to punish yourself. Have a break, don’t make any big decisions, have some fun and let the pressure drop.

(As an aside. I think that I mentioned it before, the reason I wouldn’t marry is the lack of an upside for the man, along with the potentially cavernous downside. All risk and responsibility with no real reward that I’m interested in. This is not the same thing as saying, “all da wimminz be eviiil(tm)”)

OffTheCuff

Ted/JM: Stuff like “50 Shades of Grey” doesn’t bother me at all, so I say let the ladies enjoy it all they want. After all, the wife & I both watched “Story of O” (she also read it) and it made a lot more sense now that we understand what’s going on.

It *used* to bug when women like their porn, not because they should be “madonnas”, but because they then would get indignant when men like theirs and open call *us* shallow pigs. Pot, kettle, black.

Note I said used to… now I know those are just head-games, and I’m immune to that. I can laugh at their silliness. You should be able, too.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

My husband and I watched The Hunger Games and Hugo over the weekend, and we both liked Hugo much better. We never read the books. We like movies “for kids” but that adults can watch. We also thought Up was really good.

We’ve never seen Twilight, and as for Harry Potter I stopped liking the series after the second or third one when it got really dark. We still haven’t seen the last movie. All I know is that it ends in sort of a good way, but a bunch of people die. I’d rather skip it.

http://deleted Jason773

Just1X,

I don’t bother to fight people over it because there’s no point, but I know some women who are NLT ergo NAWALT.

How would you know that some women are NLT? I’m curious as to how you are privy to some of these women’s deepest fantasies and secrets?

IME, even the most docile, religious, seemingly NLT women that I’ve encountered have enjoyed domination. I’m not going as far as ball gags and whips, but hopefully you get my drift. I used to not see this, or believe this, but coming from an alpha abundance mindset, and trying different things out, this is what I’ve concluded. Rather than fight it, I’ve dealt with it, and I’m becoming more accustomed, though not fully yet. Now, these women do want love, care, and emotional connection as well, but when we’re strictly talking about innate sexuality, domination trumps.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Now, these women do want love, care, and emotional connection as well, but when we’re strictly talking about innate sexuality, domination trumps.

I don’t understand why this is a problem. Especially since men want submissive women. It strikes me as perfectly complementary. Which it must be, as it reflects our evolution as a species.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

JM, thoughts take on significant shape and meaning for iNtuitives (minority of people), but for Sensing types (majority of people) they are just thoughts.

My husband and I are so sensitive to each other’s thoughts and feelings that it’s like we’re one person. Most people don’t live in this crazy and sensitive world that we do.

However, you should also know that your own thoughts are doing a good deal of damage, both to yourself and to others. It can be a tremendous form of power. You can focus on the positive or the negative with your thoughts. You’ve been choosing the negative.

My husband is the one who taught me (at least a small introduction) how to better balance myself, to focus my thoughts on the positive, light and love. It is emotional health that will radiate out into physical health and into all the rest.

I do struggle with this from time to time, but overall I’ve been successful at shrugging off the darkness while still acknowledging its existence, and living in the light. It allows my love for him and the world to flourish and to be so much stronger.

Remember your namesake. Jesus was about the light, love and forgiveness.

http://deleted Jason773

Ramble,

Jason, I would have figured you took the “red pill” a long time ago. No?

Yes, and no. What I was referring to was my first relationship post ‘red pill’ as Ted stated as well. I’ve known about game since I was 18 or 19, and started using various tidbits to my advantage (and they worked well), but it was all from a tactical standpoint, not a psychological one. I understood why things worked on the surface level, maybe even on a little deeper mental level, but only in the last year have I really started to understand the psychological and natural tendencies of women.

With the way my mind works, this only has made me even better in my ability to attract and get women, but the downside of this deeper understanding is recognizing a lot of things that I still wish I was a bit ignorant to.

http://deleted Jason773

JM,

Curiously, do you not like the fact that women tend to be submissive and seek domination in general, or only that they fantasize about more dominant men when their SO doesn’t match up?

If you don’t mind the former, then you can always become more dominant to the point of being that fantasy and reality. Or is that not in your nature?

Jesus Mahoney

Jason,

I think I’m a healthy mix of alpha and beta traits. I like who I am. I’ve chosen to be this way. If the ultimate female fantasy is to win over the dominant guy and draw out the beta in him, then I’m just not that ultimate fantasy–and I don’t want to be. I prefer to be a well-rounded person. And I don’t want to commit myself to a woman who responds to that pure dominance and desires to win it over.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

If the ultimate female fantasy is to win over the dominant guy and draw out the beta in him, then I’m just not that ultimate fantasy–and I don’t want to be.

There is no one ultimate fantasy, for either sex. I don’t share that fantasy, and never have. Neither have most women here. You are with a woman who doesn’t share that fantasy. If she did, she wouldn’t be with you. You are her ideal mix of traits, why can’t you accept that?

also intj

What is NLT?

Jesus Mahoney

Hope,

Thanks. I’m having a difficult time of it right now. I started smoking again, too, which I haven’t done in over 6 years ($10 a pack!).

Idk.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

JM, you say “if the ultimate female fantasy” but you seem to act like the word “if” isn’t there. Do you think your girlfriend has this ultimate female fantasy?

J

My husband and I watched The Hunger Games and Hugo over the weekend, and we both liked Hugo much better.

We haven’t seen Hunger Games because I haven’t been well, but the whole family loved Hugo. My kids and I are huge Sacha Baron Cohen fans, so bonus. DH is not a big fan, but midway through he turned to me and asked, “J, is that Sacha Baron Cohen?” I think that SBC’s lankiness clearly identifies him no matter what the disguise is, but DH was fooled–a testament to how deeply Sacha gets into a role, I think. A lot of people dislike the change in tone when the movie gets into Melies, but DH, older son and I loved that part. Younger son, not so much.

Jesus Mahoney

Hope,

Idk. That’s the real question. I know she’s currently devouring 50 Shades, along with most of her teacher friends.

Escoffier

Susan, I am looking forward to you next post but please write it in such a way that does not require us to read that book because there is no way I am doing that!

purplesneakers

What in the world? I thought the whole point of men learning game was to learn how to deal with ‘female nature.’ Of course, there is a sliding scale (or maybe a bell curve) of hypergamy, vanity, and ‘solipsism,’ but at this point, it’s getting incredibly frustrating where every single comment thread turns into a discussion of how hopefully women aren’t really “like that” and it’s not right, blah blah blah. I’ve been sitting next do my dad in the car when his eyes start tracking the ass of some teenage girl walking in front of us in tight jeans, and as much as it makes me uncomfortable, I know that it’s MALE NATURE. I even mentioned it to my mom and she just said “that’s how men are, it doesn’t mean anything.” Men are attracted to physical beauty, but in the ‘manosphere’ the women who sit around complaining about that fact of human nature are called out for their sour grapes. Because that’s what it is. The original post had “maximize your physical appeal” but not a single woman poster complained about it or took issue with it. We know it’s true and instead of railing against the intrinsic unfairness of the world, we want to actually try to benefit ourselves with more knowledge.

Guess what? I like men to be dominant. That doesn’t mean I want some guy who will cheat on me and beat me up a la Chris Brown. I mean I want someone who doesn’t hesitate to state where we should go on the first date, who teases me a little, and yes who’s somewhat dominant in bed. For all the talk about how women should be nice, accommodating, sweet, feminine, because “the feminine attracts the masculine,” there sure is a whole lot of griping around here about becoming that more masculine entity.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, yeah I didn’t recognize Sasha Cohen until my husband pointed him out. I also liked the change in tone to more historical toward the end. The little subplots and nearly wordless scenes featuring older, not physically gorgeous set of couples were also great.

JM, physical states affect mental states, too. My husband is on prescription medication and has been trying to taper, and it has bad effects as well. If you focus on negative thoughts at the same time your body is dealing with toxins, that’s a double whammy.

Jesus Mahoney

purple,

I don’t know if that comment was directed at me, but I’m not complaining that women are attracted to masculinity.

http://deleted Jason773

JM,

Since that has started being discussed, I’ve pondered it, and I really think there is some truth to that ‘ultimate female fantasy’. I think it’s innate in women like the way men would love to have a completely devoted girl who has only been with him, has no thoughts of hypergamy and is happy mentally, emotionally and sexually.

As the female fantasy goes, I do think the alphaness and dominance are on a sliding scale though. Every woman needs a little, but some want a full blown sociopath while others really do dream of the dominant guy with provider/beta traits. If you really do have a good mix of alpha/beta, then it may or may not be enough for your gf (your relationship can only determine that), but it will certainly be enough for some women.

Jesus Mahoney

Jason,

The question isn’t whether or not it’s enough for her in the relationship (I think it is). The question (for me, anyway) is whether or not she’s aroused by the thought of a dominant “alpha” guy in whom she wishes to draw out the beta. If so, then I’m done.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The question (for me, anyway) is whether or not she’s aroused by the thought of a dominant “alpha” guy in whom she wishes to draw out the beta.

I read the book and didn’t find it arousing, to be honest. I thought the sex scenes were poorly written and fairly unrealistic. However, to the extent that I became involved in the story, it was watching the innocent, good hearted female (light) get through to the disturbed, traumatized male (dark). I never once put myself in her role. That’s the key distinction I think you’re missing, JM. It’s a third person narrative, as a reader I don’t insert myself into the story, I observe it.

http://deleted Jason773

JM,

Idk. That’s the real question. I know she’s currently devouring 50 Shades, along with most of her teacher friends.

Interesting, my gf is a middle school teacher. She actually brought up 50 Shades this past weekend, as a number of her female coworkers are reading it, but it was also appropriate because we are reading Story of O together right now (my suggestion). I’ve seen how my gf has reacted to Story of O, and I have a good idea where she falls on the need for alpha/dominance spectrum, and I’m content in my ability to not fake it and match the level of her inner id. If you can’t reach that level with your gf without faking it, then that might be a bad sign for your relationship IMO.

Jesus Mahoney

Jason,

Thanks for the input. This doesn’t have anything to do with how things seem to be faring in my relationship at the moment.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

JM, now it makes more sense. She’s reading this book you think is emblematic of the ultimate female fantasy. You think you may not be enough alpha (fear) and therefore you’ll pulling back (response).

So why don’t you talk to her about it? Why only talk to people online? Any time you take a relationship issue outside of the relationship, you lose a bit more intimacy as well.

You gotta open up the communication. Maybe you could write emails to her asking her. Or text her. Or sit down face-to face. In any case you can’t just let it stew and take over.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

@Susan
Maybe you should hold out the 50 Shades post till at least more people see the books and movies. According to one of my Twihard friends that read it she said the whole Twilight fanfiction is just marketing BS many people had tried to use Twilight as a way to get part of our fandom and many of them had failed miserably. IME fandom begget new fandom’s but is only proportional Potterheads tried Twilight and only a fourth of them became fans, then the Twihards are going for Hunger Games and so far I will say less than 15% of them had became true hard core fans. Even if 50 shades is a best seller it will sell less than HG and it won’t become a phenomenon like HP or Twilight are so maybe give it a few months and see how it fares before using is an example of male and female dynamics, YMMV.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Anacaona

I find the 50 Shades phenom interesting from a marketing standpoint, and because feminists are going crazy about it. I won’t be able to conclude much about male-female dynamics from it, but having read the book, I’m very interested in its success. It’s not any good, but it’s not what the media is portraying either.

http://deleted Jason773

JM,

I just seem to be a bit confused by how your are phrasing things. If you are enough alpha for her, to the point where she really does not want anymore, then you are all good in the hood, and shouldn’t have anything to worry about. But what you’re worried about makes me think that you didn’t initally lead with your alpha foot forward enough, and that she wasn’t able to ‘alter’ your alpha behavior and eek out your beta side.

Cooper

@Susan#227
I must’ve misread your comment. I though you had said “I would be wary of a women who hasn’t been in a relationship for a period of time.”
Your response clearified that, thanks.

As for above (#312), duly noted!

Jesus Mahoney

Sue,

I appreciate you for being honest about female sexuality.

Hope,

I’m probably not making myself understand well. I have no fear about being “alpha” enough for her.

Emily

I dunno… I’ve never really had the urge to “reform a bad boy”.

I do hope to be able to access a certain level of vulnerability in my guy that’s not available to the rest of the world, so maybe that’s my version of “drawing out the beta”. (And I also want the relationship to be a safe place where I can be vulnerable as well.)

But getting involved with an actual jerk and then turning him into a non-jerk? It can be entertaining in books and movies, but in real life I know that it would be way more trouble than it’s worth. I definitely wouldn’t call it an “ultimate fantasy”.

J

Idk. That’s the real question. I know she’s currently devouring 50 Shades, along with most of her teacher friends.

You realize JM that she could be reading it out of curiosity, because they are all talking about it–and not for any deep, dark psycho-sexual reason.

Jesus Mahoney

Jason,

I led by being Jesus Mahoney. I continue to be Jesus Mahoney. My problem is just this whole fantasy thing.

a. that she feels the need to fantasize about someone else.

b. that she’s enjoying this book.

MuleChewingBriars

The problem with female sarcasm is that so few women get it right. The Kat Denning character on 2 Broke Girls is not sarcastic. She’s brassy, stultifying, and if she lost any weight on her chest she wouldn’t merit five seconds attention from most men.

There have been women who were masters of the art:

Dorothy Sayers“Some people’s blameless lives are to blame for a good deal.” “A marriage of two independent and equally irritable intelligences seems to me reckless to the point of insanity.” “There’s nothing you can’t prove if your outlook is only sufficiently limited.”

Lillian HellmanIt’s a sad day when you find out that it’s not accident or time or fortune, but just yourself that kept things from you.Things start out as hopes and end up as habits.
[Norma Shearer has] A face unclouded by thought.

Tallulah BankheadI’ll come and make love to you at five o’clock. If I’m late start without me.If I had to live my life again, I’d make the same mistakes, only sooner.It’s the good girls who keep diaries; the bad girls never have the time.

And of course, THESE are Charles and Sebastian

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mule

Good to see you! Happy Maundy Thursday.

How about Dorothy Parker? Mae West too.

J

The little subplots and nearly wordless scenes featuring older, not physically gorgeous set of couples were also great.

Those were sweet, as was the relationship between Melies and his wife and even the crush the kids had on each other. It really was sort of a romantic movie in an understated way.

I also got a kick out of the “cameos” by Django Reinhardt and James Joyce and the aerial shots of Paris. It was just a lovely movie altogether.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Jesus Mahoney, man, I’ll be honest here… if I were your girlfriend and I found out you were talking about me like this to random strangers and saying things like “if she’s aroused by a fantasy about a fictional character then I’m done,” I’d probably walk right then and there, even if I have never and would never have such a fantasy.
It’s not loving behavior nor is it honest, and it would just destroy the trust and security in the relationship. I’m almost at the point where I want to say you should just dump her brutally and let her find a man who wouldn’t treat her like the enemy.

I don’t think you would appreciate the same behavior from her. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and all that.

Just1X

@Jason

“How would you know that some women are NLT? I’m curious as to how you are privy to some of these women’s deepest fantasies and secrets?”

“IME, even the most docile, religious, seemingly NLT women that I’ve encountered have enjoyed domination.”

I’m not denying your experience (which might be wider than mine), maybe I’m lucky – who knows? I’m not talking about sexual fantasies in particular, just the kind of people I see in the world.

I’m just saying that I’ve had / have women in my life post-red-pill that don’t play head games with me, and they appear to share the same reality as me. There are women friends that I deal with on an adult to adult basis, in fact post-red-pill I refuse any other type of relationship with anybody over the age of 12 / 14. I’m not interested in spending time with entitled / childish people. Nobody is going to shame me into white knighting. I will NOT put female interests ahead of male ones, but don’t really see that happening here (well the odd comment here and there).

AVFM has a couple of female contributors that I think are great, though they sometimes take some minor stick (that is an MRA site).

Have you watched any GirlWritesWhat on Youtube, she kicks bottom (that’s polite for ass). She’s not a woman hating woman, nothing she says is overtly rude, just pointed. Anyway FWIW as proof that NAWALT, I offer

How feminism conned society, and other not-so-tall tales…
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozEFVPDxeg&feature=related

If I thought that ALL women were psycho bitches from hell incapable of adult behaviour, I wouldn’t bother coming here. Looking around HUS, I don’t see many people that I’d object to chatting to IRL.

Now, I do prefer feminine women, but don’t see that feminity prevents them from living up to adult standards. I guess that I’m on the male end of the spectrum, but physically dominating…nah, not so much.

Now marriage, that’s something else. And never again do I see myself relying for my happiness on anyone else’s happiness; If mummy isn’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. Susan linked to Captain Capitalism’s post on WGTOW (IIRC), I’d put myslef as at 50-75% on the CC scale.

I don’t understand why this is a problem. Especially since men want submissive women. It strikes me as perfectly complementary. Which it must be, as it reflects our evolution as a species.

Biologically speaking, it isn’t a problem. The problem comes from femcentric society telling males that this isn’t true, this isn’t what women want, and that they should be treated like fragile butterflies.

When I first started having sex, I believed those lies, and the connection I made with women was ‘fine’, but I wanted more than fine. Over the years since then, my sexual dominance has gone up steadily, to a point where a lot of men would not be comfortable or even happy because of the mental dichotomy from how they were raised, and through that I’ve only seen greater physical, emotional and mental connections from the female side. It really was astonsihing to see how this actually worked, and sadly, most men will never understand this and will simply reject it because of conditioning.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The problem comes from femcentric society telling males that this isn’t true, this isn’t what women want, and that they should be treated like fragile butterflies.

That’s part of what I’m trying to dispel here – that misinformation. The good news is, as you’ve said, learning about female nature has enabled you to connect more deeply with women on every level. Sex is better when the truth about sexuality – for both sexes – is understood. Women can address men’s attraction to submissive females and need for variety. Men can address women’s need to be led or dominated to some degree, while at the same time needing the sex to be about love.

Alias

J:
“That can be a very dangerous situation.
…
No, don’t bother to change on my account. But I’m glad we clarified this and that I saw the link. I didn’t realize that “codependent” had worked it’s way so far into popular usage. ”
———
You’re right, the correct word is interdependent.
Isn’t it funny how so many words/terms, like hookingup have no clear definitions so that ordinary healthy behavior is pathologized and deviant behavior is normalized?
Hmmmm.

Emily

>> “You realize JM that she could be reading it out of curiosity, because they are all talking about it–and not for any deep, dark psycho-sexual reason.”

It’s also possible (actually highly likely) that she’s turned on by the sex acts in the book rather than by the male protagonist.

She maybe wants to be tied up (or whatever it is they do in that book), but odds are that she wants to be tied up by Jesus Mahoney, not by Whatever-The-Guy-In-The-Book’s-Name-Is.

Stingray

Jesus, If she is becoming turned on she is probably not turned on by the drawing the beta out of the alpha, but by all of the alpha dominance in the book. The beta in the book ties the story together and makes us go “awwwwww”.

Haven’t read it, but I assume there is a whole lot of dominance in the book.

Stingray

Yeah, what Emily said as well.

Jonny

“I don’t understand why this is a problem. Especially since men want submissive women. It strikes me as perfectly complementary. Which it must be, as it reflects our evolution as a species. ”

For those “believe” in evolution, why do they waste so much time with feminism? EOM.

Jesus Mahoney

Jesus, If she is becoming turned on she is probably not turned on by the drawing the beta out of the alpha, but by all of the alpha dominance in the book.

Right. Oh, I realize that.

http://deleted Jason773

JM,

I led by being Jesus Mahoney. I continue to be Jesus Mahoney. My problem is just this whole fantasy thing.

a. that she feels the need to fantasize about someone else.

b. that she’s enjoying this book.

This is what I don’t get. You say you are sure that you are alpha enough for her, but then you point out these two things. If you were sure, then these two things shouldn’t bother you, because almost certainly she would not be fantasizing about this fictional character, but rather just reading the book because the rest of her social circle is and she just wants to be in the loop.

I guess the problem comes about in knowing whether or not she is just enjoying the book for its novel subject, or is this fantasy really attracting her and making her fantasize about a more dominant male than you. Either way, you can’t ask her as someone suggested, because you’ll never really know the truth.

Just1X

@Hope

“I don’t think you would appreciate the same behavior from her. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and all that.”

So you don’t think that JM is allowed to think things over? Not being sure is not the same as lying.

@JM, why not have a relaxed discussion with her about the book? You’re a writer you know how to analyse books. Talk it over (at length, have a nice meal, take your time, mull things over).

How do you know that she loves every aspect of the book?
I’ve read a lot of books that I have aspects that I like and others that I don’t. I have no intention of reading twilight or 50 shades, but The Hunger Games? I liked most of it (P vs G? no. but this was resolved acceptably)

Why assume that she gets off on it?

Why assume that she doesn’t see those qualities in you?

Ask some questions, share a few views and both take your time…what is the damn hurry?

Jesus Mahoney

Jason,

Oh, okay. I know that I’m “alpha” enough for me. If she’s more aroused by more dominance than I’m bringing, then yea, that’s an issue. And if she’s aroused by a character that is ultra dominant and primarily alpha, then that’s a bigger issue.

tom

JM
Can you honestly say since you have met your new gf that you have NEVER noticed any other pretty women? Can you honestly say you have not,even for a second, imagined what she might look like naked?.If you say no then you are in the .999999 % of men who do not..you think women are any different?

Jesus Mahoney

Tom,

Have I seen other pretty women? Yes. Have I seen one that I was more attracted to than her? No. Have I ever, for a second, thought about another woman sexually since we’ve been together? No.

you think women are any different?

I thought so, yea.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Just1X, oh I didn’t say he wasn’t allowed. I just wouldn’t want to be in a relationship headed toward marriage and kids with a guy who talked that way about me and would talk so much about how he’d be “done” for this kind of thing.

I can only control my own actions and reactions, and determine what is acceptable to me. Likewise for the man, he can determine what is acceptable to him, and that is entirely within his rights to do.

I also just generally don’t like airing dirty laundry to the world. My man is the love of my life, and I don’t want anyone else to think badly of him in any way, shape or form. I don’t discuss anything remotely negative except every now and then with his mom, because I know she also loves him deeply.

That could just be me though.

http://deleted Jason773

JM,

Yea, that’s what I was trying to get at before. You are comfortable in your own state, and that’s great, but you’re worried that she might even be happier with more than you are comfortable bringing (a legit concern imo).

I got an idea on how to test that out, but you may not like it. If you want to see, push the sexual dominance in your relationship (I’m sure you could figure out a way) to a point where you are uncomfortable, and see how she reacts. If she enjoys it, then I think you would have a glimpse into how deep her true nature goes, and you can decide from there. If doing this though, you’d have to completely commit and be as congruent as you can in your actions.

Jesus Mahoney

Hope,

Sure, I get that. But you don’t know me and you don’t know her. I’m not bad mouthing her to the world.

Jesus Mahoney

There is no one ultimate fantasy, for either sex. I don’t share that fantasy, and never have. Neither have most women here. You are with a woman who doesn’t share that fantasy. If she did, she wouldn’t be with you. You are her ideal mix of traits, why can’t you accept that?

That’s exactly what I did accept until very recently.

If it’s not the fantasy of “all” women or the majority of women, how do you account for the popularity of 50 Shades, or of romance novels in general?

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Jesus Mahoney, at the very least, I think she would be hurt to read the words you’ve written here about her and a bunch of “if so, I’m done.” And you’re writing these words to us, who don’t know you or her, rather than talking about it in a heart-to-heart with her.

I’ve had several long-term relationships, one of which lasted over 7 years. In my experience, once one person starts doing this, it’s the beginning of the end.

Lokland

@JM

If your worried get two leather belts and some nipple clamps problem solved.
Note: I think I remember reading it was BDSM, if not ignore my crazy outburst.

As for women fantasizing about more.
The prudent question then becomes,

Does it occur regardless? Or if all needs are met does it prevent the fantasy from occuring?

I’ll be quite honest, my fiance keeps my quite drained. I don’t have time for fantasy. Does it work the same for women?

@purplesneaker

+1 I’ll agree with everything you said witht he caveat that only feminine women get masculinity. (Seems like a duh statement but for the lurkers and all.)

@Just1X

I was joking. Damn internet and its lack of expressivity.

Also, Hunger Games was meh. Interesting story but written for kids.
I’m half way through the 3rd one now.
The only thing I dislike is P vs. G, hypergamy squared.

Jesus Mahoney

Hope,

You could be right. The conversation began here. It didn’t start by being about my gf, but sure, I started seeing things said here in light of my own relationship. If it signals the beginning of the end, idk.

Mike C

I’ve been looking into the whole 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon and hearing about it from

some people and the whole thing is revolting to me. I guess I really have been naive. As

far as my relationship goes, Idk. Her vacation started today, but I’ve been putting

her off since the other night, telling her I’ve been busy–which isn’t a total lie.

I’ve just been feeling physically ill the last couple of days.

Jesus, snap out of it…seriously. If you have a happy. loving, fun relationship, don’t question that because of some novel, especially if she hasn’t said or done anything to make you question her feelings towards you.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Jesus, snap out of it…seriously. If you have a happy. loving, fun relationship, don’t question that because of some novel, especially if she hasn’t said or done anything to make you question her feelings towards you.

Mike C is the man to listen to here. He swallowed the red pill and has a great relationship.

Herb

@purplesneakers

What in the world? I thought the whole point of men learning game was to learn how to deal with ‘female nature.’ Of course, there is a sliding scale (or maybe a bell curve) of hypergamy, vanity, and ‘solipsism,’ but at this point, it’s getting incredibly frustrating where every single comment thread turns into a discussion of how hopefully women aren’t really “like that” and it’s not right, blah blah blah.

Speaking just for myself, it’s less wishing women weren’t like that. It’s more, I’m supposed to change myself to appeal to women’s inherent nature and if I don’t it’s my fault while at the same time the culture around me is demanding that men be ashamed of their innate nature, not expect women to appeal to it (so many women ask like you’re asking them to murder kittens if you ask them to once or twice wear lingerie, for example). If I’m supposed to become a person I’m not and personally don’t want to be to get your attention you could at least wear a babydoll now and then in exchange

Which is one reason even though sometimes the POV can annoying or frustrating I like HUS is that Susan isn’t afraid to tell women they have as much responsibility to accept and appeal to men’s nature as men do to women.

Escoffier

Rather than say “it is the fantasy of all women or the majority of women,” it is probably more accurate to say that it is a fantasy, the underlying premise of which appeals to some strain of female nature, which is present to varying degrees in most (but not all) women and which manifests itself in different ways (some good, some bad, some neutral) and different levels of intensity depending on the individual. That is rather wordy but better captures the actual phenomenon.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

I think that’s a good description of the fantasy, as it highlights the possibility of a potentially infinite number of combinations re the weighting of each of those factors.

Sassy6519

I don’t know what to say really.

A part of me does believe that women desire alpha males with good characters who have enough beta traits to sustain a healthy relationship. That seems like it would be the ultimate fantasy.

Another part of me has a problem saying that because the typical comments afterwards are akin to a contentious courtroom.

tom

Here is the thing JM
It is human nature to find others attractive. That does not diminish how you feel about your SO. My fiance is a 7 at best. I see 9s every day. I love my SO with all my heart. I will not cheat. But for anyone to expect their SO will never find anyone else very attractive is so unrealistic, it is hard to comment on. Phyical is just one form of attraction. In your case it is personality traits that concern you. Don’t forget your gf loves you and the ENTIRE PACKAGE not just your looks or intellect or your dominance factor.. it the whole package she fell for..you are a smart caring guy. Give her a break for only being human. Until you face the FACT there will always be someone richer,better looking more alpha,funnier,etc things like this will always bother you unnecessarily. She loves YOU. THE ONE AND ONLY Jm. Not some pure alpha guy who is probably an ass anyways.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Susan, yeah that is how I feel about most stories, fictional or non-fictional.

I play video games and “get into” my character quite a lot. My character kills bears and wolves and other animals. It doesn’t mean I’m actually going to do those things or even fantasize about doing those things.

Jesus Mahoney

Jesus, snap out of it…seriously. If you have a happy. loving, fun relationship, don’t question that because of some novel, especially if she hasn’t said or done anything to make you question her feelings towards you.

It’s not just the novel, it’s a lot of things. It’s the conversation here as well. Even just before this whole debate, I remember Sue remarking to someone that even she didn’t share my optimistic view of female nature.

I’ve just been naive. Probably a part of me needed to be naive. Idk.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

Even just before this whole debate, I remember Sue remarking to someone that even she didn’t share my optimistic view of female nature.

You have described your mother as an alcoholic who reads a ton of romance novels. I think you know plenty about female nature, you just want to make sure your gf is not anything like your mother. That’s my 2 cent armchair psychoanalysis.

I think you already know that she’s not, and you need to remind yourself of that (constantly if need be) when she inadvertently steps on these JM psyche land mines. It would be much easier for her (and ultimately for you) if you came clean about these feelings. I’m sure she would empathize. Not pity, but empathy.

Herb

@Susan and Hope

I get the not getting into characters in third person narratives. I also get getting into characters in video games. The most I get into characters is RPGs (the real kind, ie tabletop, not the computer stuff) and if anything it is to enjoy “doing” things I’d never do in real life (often because, well, warp drive and dragons aren’t common around these parts).

Lokland

@Sue

Would you mind giving a quick run down of the novel? (Like uber brief.)
Or is that for tommorows article.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

I’m going to debrief on the novel in the post. I’ll put a spoiler alert up front. It’s not meant to be a book review, but a dissection of the psychological forces within it, and among the buying public. If I can figure it out. If not, I’ll invite readers to discuss the unanswered questions. But I will definitely give you enough information to go on.

Jesus Mahoney

Tom,

Here is the thing JM
It is human nature to find others attractive. That does not diminish how you feel about your SO. My fiance is a 7 at best. I see 9s every day. I love my SO with all my heart. I will not cheat. But for anyone to expect their SO will never find anyone else very attractive is so unrealistic, it is hard to comment on.

Yea, this is an issue for me, too. I get that women can look at a man who’s an ass and still think he’s physically hot, but I don’t like it.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I get that women can look at a man who’s an ass and still think he’s physically hot, but I don’t like it.

At least we should make a distinction between the women who think a guy is physically attractive while knowing nothing about him, and the women who find him just as attractive, or even more attractive, after realizing he’s an ass.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Jesus Mahoney, I see some discussions here that I wonder what my husband thinks, and I ask him about it and get his perspective. I don’t speculate about it, and I would never say “if he thought XYZ, I’d leave him.” That would just be… bad.

Do you not see the issue with that?

Jesus Mahoney

Hope,

Yea, I know it sounds harsh. It’s more about what I feel like I can or cannot cope with in an intimate relationship. It’s not about judging her value as a person.

Rhen

“What does it say about women that they rush to read a story about submissiveness?”

In earlier times, say up to the 1960s, women who needed male dominance didn’t have to look very far to find it. Male authority was so entrenched by custom and even law that probably even the nicest and most beta husband would sometimes say “no” to his wife and be able to make it stick. The knowledge of this, plus regular sex (which might have been explained to the woman by older women as “submitting” to her husband) were probably quite enough to establish the woman’s feeling that her man was dominant.

Things are different today, and this kind of fantasy seems like a way to obtain mentally what she is not getting in reality.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Rhen

Things are different today, and this kind of fantasy seems like a way to obtain mentally what she is not getting in reality.

I believe you are right. There is a female hunger for more dominance in relationships, I think.

Lokland

@Hope

Your logic is wrong.

“I would never say “if he thought XYZ, I’d leave him.” That would just be… bad.”

Lets replace XYZ with “he thinks he can cheat on me”, you’d be out the door in a second. Therefore the statement I would never leave if they thought XYZ is okay.

Its dependent on XYZ. In this case JMs XYZ are not in agreement with most (everybody?) elses. His logic is correct, its the truth of the arguments he is using we have problems with.

MuleChewingBriars

Susan –

My Holy Week is next week. 10 more days vegan to go….

Just1X

@Hope,

okay, it’s just that I haven’t seen JM making any concrete statements about her (maybe I missed them IDK). So although I agree with your statements on loyalty in general terms, I haven’t seen any such behaviour. I would say that maybe a conversation between them at some point might be wise. Right now? I think I’d try and see if there was a relationship to be had first. YMMV and that’s fine by me.

@JM you’re talking about making decisions without establishing (as far as is possible) teh facts – you’re baiting my INT personality! I understand the pain, I just don’t think that you need to rush anything. If you’re not hurting her and she isn’t hurting you, establish facts and make your (& her) decisions when things have settled a bit.

I find the web a poor way to establish other people’s real personality, so don’t really understand others rushing to judgement over this. Especially as time for contemplation is available. Take your time, think it through

Just1X

NLT – Not Like That

Ted D

Then – “Things are different today, and this kind of fantasy seems like a way to obtain mentally what she is not getting in reality.”

And to me that is the problem. When it comes to sexuality, I pretty much expect my SO to get all she needs from me, and I do my best to do the same. Other than not being able to notice attractive women when they are in view, I think I’ve done a pretty damn good job of it most of my life. My first LTR was in my teens, and it would be a lie to say I still wasn’t watching porn then. But honestly, since my second LTR in my early 20’s I’ve worked hard at curbing my natural tendencies and for the most part I don’t even find it difficult now. Perhaps it is too much to ask the same from someone else, but I pretty much am looking at it from the outside in.

Of course most guys in the ‘sphere say I shouldn’t repress my natural urges, but many of them also hump random women like rabbits, so I take their advice with a shaker of salt. I could certainly enjoy porn, but the real issue is that I’d rather my SO doesn’t enjoy her version, so I willingly give up mine.

And I’m not a prude or sexually repressed by any means, I am just very adamant about keeping sexuality insidemmy relationships. I’m game for all kinds of things, within the confines of a committed relationship.

tom

JM
I know you don’t like it. Me either. But I don’t like prostate exams either but it is just something we man up to. Please don’t blow a relationship that has all the signs of being a loving ,fun relationship because your hidden ego is getting a little brused. Let her be a human who has a natural tendancy to see beauty in different forms AND not let that beauty influence. Her what so ever.

Jonny

“Things are different today, and this kind of fantasy seems like a way to obtain mentally what she is not getting in reality.”

The problem is women seem to invent it even when it isn’t in reality. How many times have women accuse men of patriarchy? It happens all the time. There’s this invisible male dominance that just want to put women back into the dark ages. The fantasy is one thing, but it is worse when it is created out of whole cloth especially in our vaulted Universities and Colleges with their feminist studies.

I detest date rape and rape fantasies.

Women seem to want marriage. Come on. Women want to be princesses for the day. They don’t seem to want to stay committed.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Lokland, well I haven’t said those words here either, now have I? I would ask my man first instead of speculating. Plus it’s too painful to think about being without him, and I wouldn’t throw it around casually into a comment.

Ramble

If you hate female nature, you hate women.

Susan, do you hate violence? Do you hate violent crime? Violent men?

Do you think that men are much more likely to commit violent crimes than women? (Yes, I understand that it is a small minority of people who commit violent crimes.)

Is i possible that boys are much more likely to attempt to “rectify” certain situations with physical aggression relative to girls?

Is it possible that boys are, naturally, much more violent, or, at least, prone to violence than girls?

=======================

If you do not like, or hate, a certain part of our natural selves, that does not make you a misogynist or misandrist. Now, if someone were to hate all of someone’s nature, then, that would be different.

I think a good example that someone like Jesus could look to would be Anacoana. If I understand correctly, she was extremely disappointed with almost all males in her Dominican Republic. And, I would guess that, at times, she extrapolated those thoughts and feelings into certain negative attitudes towards our masculine nature.

But, at least in her own head, she devised a realistic ideal of what she was looking for in a man. And, went looking for it.

(Ana, I put a lot of thoughts in your mind, please correct me where I was wrong.)

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

I believe that aggression is part of male nature, and violence is a manifestation of disturbance or dysfunction related to aggression. I do not hate aggression, in fact, women would be nowhere without male aggression. Men fight our wars and take all physical risks except childbirth. So I can hate the dysfunction without hating the trait.

Similarly, female submissiveness (and the desire for complementary dominance in a mate) is a trait. I do hate female behavior that rewards a pathological level of dominance in males, even to the point of violence. But again, I would call that a dysfunction, a disorder.

There are many people of both sexes who suffer from emotionally and mentally disordered thinking, and that is revealed in their actions.

I agree with your holding up Anacaona as an example. Some in the manosphere would claim that you can’t find a good woman in America (unless she moved here from the DR ). I disagree, and it sounds to me like Jesus has found one.

Ramble

The Kat Denning character on 2 Broke Girls is not sarcastic. She’s brassy, stultifying, and if she lost any weight on her chest she wouldn’t merit five seconds attention from most men.

I have never seen the show, but I have sen promo’s. The look on her face, alone, is enough to make me never watch the show.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Susan, that’s an astute observation. I think the romance novel reading is major baggage that has a lot to do with his mother. It’s going to be tough to work through those issues.

But this is why I also think honesty is so crucial. How can she know to avoid pushing those triggers if she doesn’t know there’s a huge landmine there? Most men would not care. Which begs the question… does she know how big of a trigger this is?

Escoffier

Susan, what I was trying to get at was, being tied up is not a universal fantasy. Far from it. It is but one fantasy which arises from the generalized desire, present in female nature, to submit to a worthy, dominant male. Even that is not unversal but it is at least widespread.

Probably well over half of women are not turned on at all by S&M fantasies, even many who appreciate male dominance. Then you have some other % who like to read the fantasy but would freak out if they ever tried it in their own lives, and they know that very well. Then some smaller % who secretly yearn to try it and once/if they do, they realize that they hate the reality. And then some very small % who actually like it. All of this arises from the same general desire to be dominated but plays itself out very differently throughout the population.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

Yes, that matches my own sense of how people feel about S&M stuff. Porn now includes a lot of spanking – and as a result I believe it’s become much more common in relationships, at the male’s request (just like facials, anal, etc.).

J

Isn’t it funny how so many words/terms, like hookingup have no clear definitions so that ordinary healthy behavior is pathologized and deviant behavior is normalized?

I just want to know what people are talking about. My son’s friend recently “hooked him up” with a rare video of a dubstep performance. Imagine my visual images from posting here.

Herb

@Jonny

Women seem to want marriage. Come on. Women want to be princesses for the day. They don’t seem to want to stay committed.

Then again, that wouldn’t have the appeal of cash and prizes, at least not as much as walking out on “commitment”, which appears to be what drives when and how often women file for divorce (per Susan’s sources).

J

I’ll put a spoiler alert up front.

Thanks, Sue. I’d hate to have you ruin this sublime reading experience for me by revealing too many scintillating details of this soon-to-be literary classic. I know that it will be filled with many unpredictable events. Perhaps people will fcuk. Will that be followed by more fcuking? It is hard to guess.

Srsly, the only suspense you could undermine for me would come from knowing what words other than “enervating” the author misuses.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@J

Now you have me LMAO.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Mike C – “Jesus, snap out of it…seriously. If you have a happy. loving, fun relationship, don’t question that because of some novel, especially if she hasn’t said or done anything to make you question her feelings towards you”

I’m picking nits here, but I think the issue isn’t the book itself, but why she feels the desire to read it, and how she may or may not react to it that is troubling. I won’t lie, if my SO decides to read it I will probably be in about the same position, except in addition I’ll be second-guessing any sexual attention I get from her the entire time. It may be my own personal insanity, but I really can’t tolerate the concept of my SO getting turned on by anything other than me, and then coming to me to satisfy that urge. It would make me feel VERY used.

Herb

@Susan

Yes, that matches my own sense of how people feel about S&M stuff. Porn now includes a lot of spanking – and as a result I believe it’s become much more common in relationships, at the male’s request (just like facials, anal, etc.).

The internet has also made experimenting easier both by making it easier to find people willing to do it (the first part) and more and more of the community getting on line (which happened more later in response to the first). There is even a Facebook like site called Fetlife for the kink community.

People who were in the lifestyle prior to the mid to late 90s love to bitch about those who came after and how the internet ruined things. Funniest one I heard lately was all the bathhouses in St. Louis have wifi and the kids don’t even learn how to cruise or flag anymore.

Herb

@Ted, JM, et al

I won’t lie, if my SO decides to read it I will probably be in about the same position, except in addition I’ll be second-guessing any sexual attention I get from her the entire time.

I’ve been thinking about this. Before my mother my father was engaged to a woman in the Netherlands (he was Navy too). She expected him to join a gentleman’s club (in fact, her father was arranging for my father to join his). This, along with other cultural differences, is why they broke up.

When he asked her if she would be hurt with him stopping at the club before coming home she replied if he was hungry before he could get home she wouldn’t be made if he ate at a restaurant by analogy.

I’ve also heard, mostly from older women and media, the phrase “I don’t care where he gets his appetite as long as he comes home to eat.” Of course, now days it’s more common for women to argue looking at porn is effectively adultery and a reason to divorce.

I wonder how much male reaction to romance novels isn’t less our inborn nature but learned behavior: fine, marrying means I can’t look then you can’t either. I’m fine with the attitude, personally, beside I’m tired of feminist/princess attitudes but for the mass of people it’s probably more healthy to not worry about where people get their appetites as long as they’re coming home to eat.

also intj

Just1X, thanks for the explanation.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

I get the not getting into characters in third person narratives. I also get getting into characters in video games. The most I get into characters is RPGs (the real kind, ie tabletop, not the computer stuff) and if anything it is to enjoy “doing” things I’d never do in real life (often because, well, warp drive and dragons aren’t common around these parts).

Is interesting because I connect with character not depending on the POV but with actions so I get into everything, Romance, Porn, Video Games really easily but it also means that if my character is suffering a lot of if he/she is evil I can’t stand reading it I just feel this coldness in the pit of my stomach that I can’t shake in days. Hence horror, Poe, Dystopias, dark violent things… I can’t read them is too real for me.

Thanks, Sue. I’d hate to have you ruin this sublime reading experience for me by revealing too many scintillating details of this soon-to-be literary classic. I know that it will be filled with many unpredictable events. Perhaps people will fcuk. Will that be followed by more fcuking? It is hard to guess.
Srsly, the only suspense you could undermine for me would come from knowing what words other than “enervating” the author misuses.

Heh funniest words in the whole thread.

I think a good example that someone like Jesus could look to would be Anacoana.

Errr I think that is not the best endorsement for JM in the stage of his life, specially from me.

(Ana, I put a lot of thoughts in your mind, please correct me where I was wrong.)

Actually my journey was exactly like that I remember when the movie The Net with Sandra Bullock came around that was the kind of life I though I was going to have for myself a small apartment with virtual friends enough money to go by not love or children because “all men are pigs and evil and I was going to be better off alone”
It took me a long time to make peace with male nature and understand why I looked for the things I wanted, go for it and allow myself to fall in love the way I wanted body, heart and soul with a worth it male.
But it was a long painful process I had to admit my own weaknesses on the issues I was having and then I had an AHA moment when I saw that all my “standards” were just an armor made out of fear and that I was never going to be happy without fighting for what I wanted.
But I’m a woman I think men need a different process something more physical and probably led by another respected male (something like having a mentor like Mike C did, similar to Dante and Virgil) So I really don’t know what to suggest except some counseling, YMMV.

Ramble

I do not hate aggression

I also asked if you hated violence.

Think of how many 3 year old boys look to hit another child because they started playing with “their” toy.

The child took aggressive, violent action in an attempt to rectify a situation. And almost any normal parent will discipline that child for being aggressive and violent.

This does not mean that police officers and the military cannot employ violence in an attempt to rectify injustices, or prevent them.

But, in general, most will hate violent behavior and see males as being much more violent. And, with Ana, she saw tons of natural male behavior that she loathed. These things do not need to create misandrists.

So, again, guys can hate certain things about female nature without being misogynists. Now, if you hate ALL of their female nature, that is another kettle of fish.

[I restated my argument because I did not feel that you responded to my point about our, sometimes, violent nature.]

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble, @Lokland

I sense that we’re entering a debate about the innate goodness or evil of man.

I don’t think that violence is part of male nature. I think it’s an inappropriate expression of aggression, which is part of male nature. Aggression can range from a scowl to bloody murder. So there’s the trait, and then a spectrum of behaviors for that trait.

Cuckoldry is dishonesty. I believe that self-interest is part of our nature, and dishonesty is an inappropriate expression of that.

Both men and women are capable of hateful acts. But I don’t believe that we are hateful by nature. Of course, some people may be genetically predisposed to certain misbehaviors – but as of today, we hold everyone equally responsible for their actions if we can determine that they know right from wrong.

Ramble

Fuck! Only the word “certain” was meant to be in bold…ahh, fuck it.

Alias

Ramble:
“And, with Ana, she saw tons of natural male behavior that she loathed. ”
——
As someone who was raised in the same culture as Ana, except right here in the USA, what Ana saw was not “natural male behavior.”
Some of it is natural behavior, but to the extent that it’s been taken by that culture, a lot of it is artificially created.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Herb – ” but for the mass of people it’s probably more healthy to not worry about where people get their appetites as long as they’re coming home to eat.”

Which is why I said perhaps this is my own personal insanity. I get the impression that most men and women simply don’t care why their mate is horny, as long as they are the recipients of it.

My problem is I care a great deal about people’s motivations, and in this case an external motivation to have sex triggered by a romance novel means that she did not become horny because she likes what she has already, but that she became horny over something she doesn’t have with me. I don’t want to be her “proxy” for some imagined sexual encounter simply because I am her mate. If she wants that encounter so much, she should either figure out how to/ask to get it from me, or leave me and get it wherever she wants.

In the context of your analogy, I try my damnedest to make sure all of my appetite derives from the fact that her cooking is the best. On occasion the smell of someone else’s cooking might trigger my interest in eating, but I immediately direct my thoughts of food on my SO’s cooking.

Or put another way, I refuse to allow my mind to wander in regards to sexual encounters with anyone other than my SO. I consider it part of my faithfulness defense: if I never see another woman as a possible sexual partner, I won’t be tempted by it. And the truth is, I don’t sit and think about this. I’m happy with my SO, we have a great sex life, and I don’t need anyone else, so why even put a single moment of energy into fantasizing about it anyway? To me, putting that energy into it might be an indication of something else like the hidden desire to go elsewhere. If I ever found myself sexually obsessed with another women, I would know there was something wrong with my relationship, and would either strive to fix it, or break it off and go elsewhere.

A side effect of this is that when I am single, I do see and acknowledge other attractive women. In a relationship, I automatically play those same women down in my head to the point that a previous mild obsession with say Megan Fox (too skinny for me but popped into my head…) disappears from my thought processes to the point that seeing Megan Fox doesn’t trigger anything more than a “yeah she is attractive”. I mentioned elsewhere that on occasion my SO likes to point out attractive women, or specifically things like what they are wearing. I make an effort now to comment in some way that shows I find her attractive, simply because of the possibility that if I don’t do so, she would see it as beta type supplication and/or that I don’t see other “options” and tick a point off from my total.

Some days I swear I have 20 of these thought processes floating around my head, and on those days its no surprise that I wind up mentally exhausted. On the days where I simply don’t give a shit about any of it (as described elsewhere by DogSquat as I Don’t Give a Shit Nirvana) things go pretty smooth, but I have to make the effort to not give a shit. On days like today, it can get a bit distracting and certainly causes me to second guess myself a lot. Not giving a shit is the path of least resistance, but it simply isn’t in my nature.

Insanity indeed. 😛

Ramble

As someone who was raised in the same culture as Ana, except right here in the USA, what Ana saw was not “natural male behavior.”
Some of it is natural behavior, but to the extent that it’s been taken by that culture, a lot of it is artificially created.

Alias, that’s fine. But the main point that I was driving at is that men are quite capable, naturally capable, of committing violent and other anti-social acts. And, that we are much, MUCH more likely to be violent than females are.

And, if you are surrounded by violent behaviour (or, some other terrible behaviour very natural to men), it can be quite easy to easily and quickly identify this with men and really, really hate it about them.

Though, that hatred does not need to lead to misandry. Especially if you know that our physical and, sometimes, violent nature can be directed into useful things.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Wow Ted, you really think about that stuff that much? Me, I’m compulsively checking to see if the video game forums I’ve been reading are back up yet.

These days I think about video games a lot. I also check various design and news blogs. My husband thinks about gardening a lot, and also work stuff.

Right now I’d really love some fresh oranges. They sound so delicious, but I have none here. Have to wait until I get home…

Herb

@Hope

Right now I’d really love some fresh oranges. They sound so delicious, but I have none here. Have to wait until I get home…

Right now, I’m thinking how much my butt hurts. Actually, I’ve been thinking about that all day and how tonight I have to go buy some bicycle shorts.

Ted, if you need something else to think about than all that you could send good vibes to my butt…since I’m male it won’t count as wandering 😉

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Hope – The hardest part about getting to sleep for me every night I’m not physically exhausted is always quieting my head enough to pass out. And it isn’t just “game” or HUS stuff, its work, home, car… Honestly my head is constantly churning stuff around and I generally work by focusing on the particular thread I need at that moment. The flip side is I’ve found some of my best ideas pop up from nowhere in totally inappropriate times, like figuring out the solution to a problem I have at work while sitting at my son’s spring band concert. Those things have happened more than I care to admit. And don’t get my started on song writing. I’ve actually gotten out of bed at 3am because I woke up with a song idea and can’t get back to sleep until I “do” something with it.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Herb – LOL. Right now I’m thinking about:
HUS stuff
How to get this stupid SNMP Collector configured without knowing much about it.
What we will be having for dinner tonight.
That I need to use my day off tomorrow to go grab a few last minute Easter presents for the kids.
My car’s oil needs changed.
I HAVE to work on the back yard and the pool this weekend.

And that was just right off the top of my head. I might be genuinely crazy. I won’t say it isn’t possible, but if so, I’m a high level functioning nut at least. 😛

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

As someone who was raised in the same culture as Ana, except right here in the USA, what Ana saw was not “natural male behavior.”
Some of it is natural behavior, but to the extent that it’s been taken by that culture, a lot of it is artificially created.

This too. One of the reasons I don’t think everything is lost and why I support Susan’s blog is that there is a lot of how culture bring the worst or the best out of its members and getho culture on Latin America did the same that feminism is doing on the first world. Rewarding bad behaviour and punishing good one so of course the results are obvious regardless of gender, YMMV.

Escoffier

Right now I am dying for morels and ramps and wondering when the hell the markets are going to start getting them. The asparagus is good though.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

Right now I am dying for morels and ramps and wondering when the hell the markets are going to start getting them. The asparagus is good though.

I scored some ramps at WF this afternoon. What I really hoped for was fava beans – no luck. And they were sold out of asparagus, on special for $1.99! I’ll have to get there when they open on Saturday.

I hate to think what fresh morels cost.

Jesus Mahoney

@JM you’re talking about making decisions without establishing (as far as is possible) teh facts – you’re baiting my INT personality! I understand the pain, I just don’t think that you need to rush anything. If you’re not hurting her and she isn’t hurting you, establish facts and make your (& her) decisions when things have settled a bit.

I find the web a poor way to establish other people’s real personality, so don’t really understand others rushing to judgement over this. Especially as time for contemplation is available. Take your time, think it through

True. I have to speak to her about it. I guess I’m just trying to figure out my stance on it before I do.

Alias

Ramble:
Yeah, I didn’t mean to steer off your point.

Yes, boys are more naturally drawn to violence and weapons. Little boys will use their fingers or build a weapon from sticks if they’re not provided with a toy gun. But that’s not the same as a child who’s forced to carry an weapon around and made to use it, even when he doesn’t want to.

Famble: “Though, that hatred does not need to lead to misandry.”
——
No it doesn’t have to but it may still lead to misandry only it’s expressed differently than it would here.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

@Ted D
Really man I had been guilty of overthinking specially when concerned to my SO cheating wich everyone knows is my weak spot. He has work harder in assuring me he will never touch another woman but my latin self. But it took a long time for me to get over it.
As an aside note women are emotional creatures and we can connect emotionally to many things without being because we lack something at home.
I’m pretty sure if we had an study of having women talking about their celebrity crushes with diodes in their brains to see their activity and had them talk about their favorite brand of lip balm you will probably see the same brain areas enlightened, we just connect to the world through our emotions, some women stronger than others but is rare the woman that doesn’t do it without meaning any lacking at home. Trust me if a woman is trying to sent the message that her crushes are competition with you real self she won’t be subtle about it and you will know for sure (Mike’s wife was a textbook example of that)
And as in a more horrible note. Many women that were violently raped and I mean real rape not enacting a fantasy report having orgasms with the act. They hated it, they cried all through it but still their bodies responded (or well betrayed them) to the stimuli and this victims took a long time to cope with the fact that they enjoyed in a way and forgive themselves for it, is not an easy discovery for any woman but is nevertheless true.
Female body is really sexual even when the owner doesn’t want it to be. So this whole arousal can only come from one place might be how men’s bodies and brain work but is not certainly how women’s are wired for the most part, YMMV.

Alias

@ Ramble, I apologize for my typo on your name.

——–
Anacaona:
“Rewarding bad behaviour and punishing good one so of course the results are obvious regardless of gender”
——
> I was exposed to that culture because as an 1st-gen American, immigrants usually form enclaves based on a common language and not based solely on socioeconomic status, and at the time this was mostly common amongst the poorest.
—
Yes, cultural punishments and rewards play a role but so does parenting.
Those men don’t just become that way because it’s their nature. They’re pushed from the time they’re little, and when it’s taken to the extreme, boys have been abused in order that they fit some stupid definition of what a “real man is supposed to be.”
Have you ever heard stories throughout LatinAm of how 12 yr old boys were taken to brothels to have sex with middle-aged disease-infested skanks? No wonder some of these men became cads.

To a lesser degree, but still outrageous, I remember little boys who were shamed if they only liked 1 little girl instead of having a harem by age 5.
They were mocked and made to feel inferior if they didn’t aspire to be womanizers.
Of course, not everyone in that culture adheres to this philosophy because not that many people are capable of being so severely pathologically damaged, but the saner people didn’t bat a single eye when they saw these extremes happening. I’m so far removed from that environment, I’m hoping that many of the radical traditions have been greatly diminished by child abuse laws, but from what I’ve seen in the periphery, the traditional family unit has suffered. It only takes a certain portion of people to spoil the whole crop.

What peeves me off is when that life is glamorized. It’s sick, I can’t help but become enraged, so I’ll take a deep breath now and calm down.
Sorry for the rant. This post is quite the downer.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Have you ever heard stories throughout LatinAm of how 12 yr old boys were taken to brothels to have sex with middle-aged disease-infested skanks? No wonder some of these men became cads.

Yeah that was the norm it was a considered a father’s duty to help his boy become a man.

To a lesser degree, but still outrageous, I remember little boys who were shamed if they only liked 1 little girl instead of having a harem by age 5.
They were mocked and made to feel inferior if they didn’t aspire to be womanizers.

That too. The first question a stranger asked when visiting a house.
To the little girl: What grade are you? (Contrary to popular believe women were pushed to educate themselves really young in my culture at least)
To the little boy: How many girlfriends do you have?
You can still find people who do that, some more conscious mothers of the kind of kids they might be raising try to stop this early brainwashing but if their husbands is beaming with pride if he says 3 or 4 whatever the mother says is not really of much use. All boys want to make daddy proud after all.

Sorry to hear that this still affects you up to this day. For me is kind of an alien planet a bad nightmare I don’t have to dream anymore. Maybe I’m blessed with the ability to move on faster than others dunno. Take a deep breath and think that there are good things to come as well and in this corner of the net we are not totally blind to this. Everything starts small and spread, slowly but change is coming, YMMV.

Just1X

@JM

“I guess I’m just trying to figure out my stance on it before I do.”

I get that, that’s how I like to work too. I find it easier over beers with a mate IRL. If you haven’t got a friend like that available then that can be tough. You mentioned a counsellor previously IIRC, have you talked to him/her?

Just take the pressure off, you’re not hurting anybody and you haven’t done anything wrong. When you’re ready, have a casual talk with her. At the moment you’re operating without facts – the horror, the horror (INT).

I don’t really see the problems that you do (or a couple of others here AFAICS – I mean no disrespect), but I don’t share your past. I’m not able to, nor am I interested in, judging you. I’m just saying that there are other ways of thinking. Ones that may be more helpful in this situation, but that’s for you to decide.

I have some crap in my head sometimes that I can’t be responsible for, but what I am responsible for, is what I do with them. If you want her to have no basic human weird thoughts from time to time, you’re going to have to get a Stepford Wife. Momentarily wishing to marry Elvis isn’t something you can crucify her for. To me, if it’s you that she’s coming to for her wants and needs, that is pretty much it. The stuff in your head is just hurting you, let it go.

Gonna have to leave you tonight – I need some sleep. That usually requires me to leave the bloody computer alone by 10:00pm and wind down. (note to Ted there)

“I would caution you, however, from entering the Dark and dehumanizing world of misogyny. Yes, misogyny. If you hate female nature, you hate women.”

I call bull shit here.
I hate cuckolding. I hate the very idea of it occuring to myself or any other man.

It is one aspect of female nature that if I could I would lock in box filled with rocks which I would put inside another box filled with steel. I would then drop this package into the ocean wait 1000 years come and get it, dry it out and then nuke it.

I HATE women who HAVE done this. I hate that women could even consider doing this.

I do not hate women. I hate female nature in this regard, I hate women who can’t control their nature but I do not hate women.

Alias

Anacaona:
“Sorry to hear that this still affects you up to this day. For me is kind of an alien planet a bad nightmare I don’t have to dream anymore. Maybe I’m blessed with the ability to move on faster than others dunno. ”
——–
Thanks, I’ll be OK.
I think the reason it resurfaces is particularly because I have kids, so it makes it unfathomable to think that parents did this to kids. ugh. Y ou’ll see soon enough as you contemplate how best to raise your child/ren and start to weed out the crazy from what was beneficial.
Anyway, I’m glad you get it.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Y ou’ll see soon enough as you contemplate how best to raise your child/ren and start to weed out the crazy from what was beneficial.

Oh you are expecting too much from me. I’m completely paranoid about “Will this choice ruin my children’s life forever?” in a regular basis. I just learned that fear is a terrible counselor so I don’t listen to it…that much. The bastard is really loud. I read and enjoy and know that I will do my best. That is the best we all can do.

Jesus Mahoney

You have described your mother as an alcoholic who reads a ton of romance novels. I think you know plenty about female nature, you just want to make sure your gf is not anything like your mother. That’s my 2 cent armchair psychoanalysis.

I think you already know that she’s not, and you need to remind yourself of that (constantly if need be) when she inadvertently steps on these JM psyche land mines. It would be much easier for her (and ultimately for you) if you came clean about these feelings. I’m sure she would empathize. Not pity, but empathy.

Yea, my mom read hundreds of those novels–thousands, probably. I knew her nature, but part of how I got past it was to tell myself that not all women had the same nature.

There were many other things besides the romance novels: insults, neglect, that sort of thing. And also my brother. My brother has always gotten more ass than any other guy I know. Good looking, charming, charismatic–I told you he would lock me out of the house when he would invite girls over. When I was older, I’d walk in from school to find him fucking one girl or another right in the living room, some of whom I knew, some who seemed nice, who seemed decent. I guess the most any of them had seen was him yelling at me or dragging me by my hair out of the house. One girl saw him spit in my face when I tried to fight back, but generally no one saw the really bad stuff he’d done. Still I hated him and I hated all of them as well.

I had a girlfriend when I was 15. My brother had joined the Marines and was home from boot camp. She mentioned to me that I had a cute older brother. I distinctly remember the way I felt my heart and the rest of my body totally shut down. I hated her for it. I broke up with her the next day.

I forgot about that, but I’ve dragged out old journals and have been going through them today.

I’m well aware of how I got here. And I’m beginning to be aware of just how unreasonable everything I want from a relationship sounds to the rest of the world, but I’m not sure what to do about it. I don’t want a gf who’s going to find other men more physically attractive. I don’t want a gf who’s going to find jerks physically appealing. I don’t want a gf who’s going to fantasize about hot alphas.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

I don’t want a gf who’s going to find other men more physically attractive. I don’t want a gf who’s going to find jerks physically appealing. I don’t want a gf who’s going to fantasize about hot alphas.

I don’t think you have one. Frankly, this does make me especially relieved you didn’t marry the previous one, who obviously was guilty of 2 and 3.

When a woman is in love, there is no man more physically desirable to her than her beloved. None. She will see a handsome man and it will register that he is handsome, but his good looks will not touch her. This is not only possible, it is natural when a woman has pledged her heart to someone. When a woman is “looking around,” her heart is not fully committed.

That is all you need to discern from your gf.

Jesus Mahoney

I get that, that’s how I like to work too. I find it easier over beers with a mate IRL. If you haven’t got a friend like that available then that can be tough.

Nobody I know IRL knows about the type of abuse I endured. My gf knows bits and pieces and she knows more than anybody outside my family. I’m not in therapy now.

OffTheCuff

Sue: “Porn now includes a lot of spanking – and as a result I believe it’s become much more common in relationships, at the male’s request (just like facials, anal, etc.).”

You’d be surprised how much women really do want that. It’s not always at the male’s request at the expense of a crying, horrified woman. Personally, I’ve found such “kink” things are often, if not more, desired by women. Sometimes overtly, sometimes secretly.

Porn is reflective of what people really do, and want to do. Women included,

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

You’d be surprised how much women really do want that. It’s not always at the male’s request at the expense of a crying, horrified woman.

Oh, I know. Women are often interested. I can tell you that 25 years ago a lot less of those activities took place. People didn’t generally come up with these ideas on their own in relationships. Porn is the external stimulus.

Porn is reflective of what people really do, and want to do. Women included

Like double penetration? Porn erroneously depicts female sexual response. Not all of it, but enough to give men the wrong idea.

I hear from young women whose boyfriends want anal only, and they suffer from painful fissures. I just read a book by a gynecologist talking about everything related to female sexual physiology, and it was very interesting. One thing she said is that she can always tell immediately which women regularly engage in anal sex, because even in their 20s, the anus is permanently opened a bit. She cautions that women need to be aware that the anus is designed as a one-way street. Years of anal sex leaves people unable to hold their stools in. Caveat emptor.

Jesus Mahoney

Tom,

JM
I know you don’t like it. Me either. But I don’t like prostate exams either but it is just something we man up to. Please don’t blow a relationship that has all the signs of being a loving ,fun relationship because your hidden ego is getting a little brused. Let her be a human who has a natural tendancy to see beauty in different forms AND not let that beauty influence. Her what so ever.

I appreciate where your heart is at, but this has nothing to do with my ego getting a little bruised. To be honest, I think this has to do with the way I defined myself as a person, how I defined my worth as a human being, and what was of value in the world, in order to get through my childhood without hanging myself by my dirty underwear in my bedroom. And now realizing that… while it may have gotten me through, it’s left me ill-equipped to accept intimacy from a real person.

Jesus Mahoney

Sue,

And yet just about every woman except Hope is saying that they’re going to fantasize–most are acknowledging that the fantasy really does involve the alpha guy, and most everyone here has said it’s unreasonable to expect your SO to think you’re hottest guy in the world.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

And yet just about every woman except Hope is saying that they’re going to fantasize

No they haven’t. I think it’s normal for women to enjoy stories about love and romance. Sex is part of that. The key question is whether the woman is casting herself in the lead in such stories, and I don’t hear anyone here saying they do that.

most are acknowledging that the fantasy really does involve the alpha guy

We’ve been saying that women find it sexy when guys take the lead and dominate them a bit. I don’t know what the alpha guy is. Every guy is a mix of traits. And romance novel heroes are never strictly alpha types. They’ve always got a lot of beta traits, and that is even true for the guy in 50 Shades. He’s a fucked up dude, but he’s looking for love – he just doesn’t believe he deserves it.

Personally, I have never once fantasized about some caveman grunting and having his way with me. I do not care for guys heavy on those traits. I believe the only woman here who has expressed a different opinion is Sassy.

most everyone here has said it’s unreasonable to expect your SO to think you’re hottest guy in the world.

I think it was just Escoffier who may have said that. I think men see women in terms of “hot or not.” We don’t. Even when I see a handsome man I do not think about whether he is hot – as in sexually appealing. I probably would if I were single, but I’m not, and I don’t think most women mind-f*ck strangers the way men say they do. I think what Escoffier was getting at, and I don’t disagree, is that there will always be stunning people in the world. You may at some level understand that a woman renowned for her beauty might be perceived, at least by other males, as better looking than your partner. So what? That’s not a problem for me, since I’m happy in my relationship and don’t care. No matter how good-looking another man is, I am in love with the whole package – a pretty face doesn’t begin to tempt me or cause me to question the value of that.

Sassy6519

Personally, I have never once fantasized about some caveman grunting and having his way with me. I do not care for guys heavy on those traits. I believe the only woman here who has expressed a different opinion is Sassy.

When have I ever said that? I don’t want a caveman. I want an alpha. I think those two things are completely different.

I also have never said that I wanted an asshole alpha. I only want an alpha of good character. That type seems significantly harder to come by, in this day and age, hence the trouble I’m having finding one in my own life.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Sorry, Sassy, I worded that poorly. I was just referring to your 75/25 split.

Jesus Mahoney

Sue,

I have a question, and I’m not judging you or your marriage based on it: do you know of other men who are physically more appealing than your husband?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

I don’t mind answering it.

I have a question, and I’m not judging you or your marriage based on it: do you know of other men who are physically more appealing than your husband?

Appealing? No. No man appeals to me the way my husband does. He appeals to me in many ways, including physically. But I can also step outside of my love for him, and try to be objective. If you put a pic of my husband next to a pic of a young Paul Newman, I know that 99% of women are going to say Newman is handsomer. I accept that. I can see why they would think so – he was a beautiful young man. But I don’t wish my husband looked like that, nor do I wish I’d married someone who looks like that.

There’s also the reality that I have a special fondness for my husband’s particular features and quirks. His slightly pointy chin with a cleft. Those front teeth I told you about. His eyes, which are the color of the Caribbean sea. His slightly too large ears. This is the father of my children, the face I see each morning. It is precious to me. I know just how it feels right after he shaves. I know just how he smells. I love him. So while I have two eyes and some ability to be objective about male standards of beauty, I have no desire to change places with anyone.

Also, I don’t know if you recall my mentioning this, but I once said that when I see a very handsome young man, I almost always evaluate his appearance in terms of potential son-in-laws. I think maybe women are different this way, cougars notwithstanding.

The short answer to your question is that I am capable of recognizing good looks in another man, but I don’t find them appealing in any personal way.

Jesus Mahoney

When have I ever said that? I don’t want a caveman. I want an alpha. I think those two things are completely different.

I also have never said that I wanted an asshole alpha. I only want an alpha of good character. That type seems significantly harder to come by, in this day and age, hence the trouble I’m having finding one in my own life.

Yea, I’m not sure what you mean by alpha. The pics you put up of attractive guys looked like pretty boys with prepubescent bodies (I don’t mean that as an insult to you or them, btw). That’s not what I envision when I think of 75% alpha.

– Naturally physically attractive, by most objective standards.
– Dominant, within reason, but who also has the capability for compassion and understanding
-Despite the fact that he may have women throwing themselves at him, he is selective of who he decides to sleep with and date. Just because he has lots of options does not mean that he takes all that are given to him. He has the ability to be choosy and utilizes it.
-Comfortable financially and driven with a sense of his life purpose.
-Considered a leader amongst his friends (male and female).
-A person who is worthy of admiration and dedication.
-A king in his own domain, whatever that may be

I think it’s very possible for a man to be 75% Alpha and 25% beta without being an asshole. Only some alpha traits have negative connotations, not all. I want the good alpha traits (Ambitious, handsome, dominant, admirable, knowledgeable) with the good beta traits (Compassionate, sincere, emotionally intelligent, capable of love).

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Jesus Mahoney, I think a lot of your problems stem from your childhood and your past. This is not an attack on you, because we all have these problems, and we all deal with them in different ways. Don’t think that you’re broken, just that you have dealt and are still dealing with some difficult things. Given your past, you have done remarkably well.

I think you ought to let go of this life script you have playing over and over again. Let go of the bitterness, the anger, and the sadness. Forgive your ignorant mother and brother, and move on. You can still love them as souls without loving what they do. Easier said than done, but nothing good comes easily.

I also think you need to openly communicate with your girl, and you need to do it sooner rather than later. Human beings are not meant to be solitary creatures. Our connections to other human beings make us who we are, and we desire, crave and literally need these connections. You might not be able to overcome these issues overnight, but you can begin to address them head-on, starting with the woman whom you have given us the indication that she loves you very much.

And, have faith in your own capacity to love.

Jesus Mahoney

Thanks for answering. So then how exactly did you think I was being too optimistic about female nature?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

Thanks for answering. So then how exactly did you think I was being too optimistic about female nature?

Because, while everything I said is true, it is also true that I might get turned on reading a book. As it happens, 50 Shades was just too crappy, but if it had been well written it might have made me feel sexy. I own that, and the question is, what do I do with those feelings? I jump my husband’s bones, that’s what. Now, Ted says this makes him see red, and perhaps you feel the same way. It’s not that I want the man in the story. Or that I want to perform the acts in the story. But witnessing a couple really getting it on and who are really into each other – that’s hot. For the record, I would not feel the least bit aroused by a casual sex scene. It’s only arousing if the man and woman have an intense emotional connection.

I think this idea of women being turned on by a couple is key. If a woman went to a site to watch a man masturbate, that would be different. There was a woman in the forum who discovered that her boyfriend had uploaded footage of himself doing that, and women had left comments on the video. Personally, I thought it was a major red flag for him, but I do hope none of those women was in a monogamous relationship.

I’m going to guess you are not of the secure attachment style — I wasn’t always, either. But finding the right person really helped. And having that right person teach me how to be honest, open and communicative… that was key.

Dogsquat

Probably piling on here, but:

Jesus, this is Dogsquat, how copy?, over.

If you lived in my area, I’d drive over to your house and cut the internet cable. I’d steal your smartphone and mail it back to you via the slowest possible route. I’d chuck a grenade into the server room at wherever you work, too.

Then I’d buy you and your girl a trip to a nice rural bed-and-breakfast – someplace on a farm or in a mountain valley where they don’t get good internet.

You need a break, my Brother. This stuff we talk about here, all this knowlege – it’s like antibiotics. It can put you on the path to health and happiness – save your life, even.

But if you eat it all day, every day, you’re gonna die. It’ll be a nasty death, too – bleeding slowly to death out of your ass from clostridium difficile ain’t all that nice.

That’s what you’re doing to your relationship, man.

You’re distorting your context.

Please, please, PLEASE go do something fun with your girl for awhile.

Come back here in a week, and it’ll all look different.

I’ve got this vision of you in five years sitting at a desk in your bedroom, writing. It’s 3am and the only light is the glow from the screen, your 2nd draft sitting like an angry viper in front of you.

You wonder why the hell you allowed so many people into your relationship. How did that happen?

Why the fuck did I listen to them?, you think. You gaze over at your bed.

The bar skank sleeping there farts, then turns over fitfully. You notice she’s left makeup stains on the pillowcase.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Dogsquat, @Jesus

OMG, what a scenario! I second your suggestion about taking a break. Earlier today I almost told JM that I wanted to throw his computer in the river. I’m too selfish – I don’t want to lose him – but I agree that JM needs to unplug and sex up his gf like mad for the rest of her vacation.

I would just say one more thing. Everyone’s experience is real and valid. Many guys here have been burned by a woman. But this is red pill central, this corner of the blogosphere, and the feedback reflects that. Dogsquat has found an amazing woman, and so have you. Revel in that. Don’t allow anyone to tell you to expect the worst. You may be a tad too idealistic – it sets you up for disappointment. But I’d take that any day over cynicism and isolation. You have a lot of love to give, and a woman who want to receive and bounce it right back to you. So do it!

Jesus Mahoney

Thanks, Hope. Yea, she’s going to come by tomorrow morning. I’m not at all sure how I’m going to address any of these things yet.

I’m also not sure that I can love my mother and brother as souls.

Jesus Mahoney

“…makeup stains on the pillowcase.”

Dogsquat, I think you missed your calling as a writer.

Dogsquat

Make me a shitty prophet, Jesus.

Passer_By

@sue
“I can tell you that 25 years ago a lot less of those activities took place. ”

But I think perhaps it was because women thought they (or their partner) would be weird for it, so they didn’t want to indulge those thoughts.

As to spanking, I think once it became known that a lot of women like it, the concern was gone, so more women tend to really get off on it now. Same with hair grabbing or even mild choking, etc.

As to the rest – I think that’s largely porn induced, though a girl I dated for a while in the mid eighties (when on a break from the one who would ultimately be my first wife), really got off on being cummed on – and even asked for it before I thought about it. I don’t mean a facial, I just mean on her. She might have liked the facial too, but it never came up.

OK, TMI, I know.

Passer_By

@JM, etc.

Wait a minute. Am I reading this correctly? I leave for a few days, and I come back to find JM is disillusioned about women and love again? Is he returning to July Jesus?

Mike C

Jesus,

Listen to Dogsquat.

I don’t know how long you’ve been with your GF, but it might be time to really open up about your childhood beyond just “bits and pieces” and try to talk through some of these issues/concerns with her. At the end of the day, you have to work this through WITH HER, not an Internet blog.

Hope had an interesting comment about thoughts vis a vis intuitive versus sensing types. I’m not sure if this is possible for you, but my sense is you get immersed in these thoughts. I think you’ve got to find some way to kind of turn off the overanalysis/overthinking.

Jackie

@Jesus M–
Hi Jesus,

I just broke my Lenten internet fast to talk with my sister in Africa on Skype and cruised over here to see how things have been. JM, don’t lose hope; be encouraged:

My mom was never more devoted and loving to my dad as when he had suffered his brain tumor. Maybe he wasn’t as “physically attractive” as other men — people would actually turn away from him in repulsion, kids would point; as he had lost the use of the muscles on half the side of his face for a time. But to my mom, it was *obvious*: no other man existed for her.

She was completely devoted to my dad. In fact, I would say she loved him even more fiercely when he was “disfigured.” She knew how much his self-respect and dignity meant to him. My mom knew he could hold his head high, because his family was there for him, no matter what.

(And I should mention: It was the same for my dad when my mom got sick. Chemo isn’t the prettiest thing. My mom was only 107 lbs to start with and things got pretty bad. She would scratch her legs until they bled, throw up and her skin and eyes started changing color from the excess bilirubin. In all this, my dad took care of her 24/7 and the only comment he ever made was this, Your mother is perfect in all ways.)

The point is this: There is a place where there is real, true, unconditional love. A place where you will be loved and unconditionally regarded. I know, Jesus, because I have seen it with my own eyes. Just because it’s uncommon doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Even when I go home on Easter Sunday, I know that my dad is so happy, just that we exist. Nothing is more required. That may sound corny, but that is my experience, and I know it is real.

JM, in the words of my sister: Be the change you wish to see in this world. I just got off Skype with her. Today she was mugged at knifepoint by an 11 yr old, for her phone. (He thought it was a fancy iPod, worth a lot on the black martket.)

Her stories have been so hard to hear– FGM, fistulae, horrifc abuse. People and animals have died in her arms. I asked her how she can retain her faith and that is what she told me: Be the change you wish to see in this world.

Please consider turning off the computer. This is a pretty big 3 days for your namesake, you know? Thank you for considering my request, JM!
Kindest regards–

PS: If traditional therapy feels weird, consider CBT. My sister, mentor and myself have all used it. My brother– who is pretty darn tough– has also used it. There’s no shame in getting help. In the words of my beloved dad, It’s not a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of strength.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jackie

What a lovely and welcome surprise to see you here. Thank you for your support and encouragement to Jesus. Have a wonderful Easter, and we look forward to seeing you again soon!

SayWhaat

PS: If traditional therapy feels weird, consider CBT. My sister, mentor and myself have all used it. My brother– who is pretty darn tough– has also used it. There’s no shame in getting help. In the words of my beloved dad, It’s not a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of strength.

I second that. JM, you should go to therapy. I’m like you in that I tend to get immersed in my own thoughts, and talking to someone outside that really helps.

Alias

Anacaona:
“The first question a stranger asked when visiting a house.
To the little girl: What grade are you? (Contrary to popular believe women were pushed to educate themselves really young in my culture at least)”

– Yes. Some have done well, but quite a few who achieved higher education have remained single and childless.
————

Jackie,
thanks for writing about your parents.

Jesus Mahoney

Sue,

Because, while everything I said is true, it is also true that I might get turned on reading a book. As it happens, 50 Shades was just too crappy, but if it had been well written it might have made me feel sexy. I own that, and the question is, what do I do with those feelings? I jump my husband’s bones, that’s what. Now, Ted says this makes him see red, and perhaps you feel the same way.

I wasn’t saying that. If I read a sex scene in a novel, and it’s a good one, I’ll get aroused. Same as if I see a good one in a film. I wouldn’t call that fantasizing so much as just finding a sexy situation arousing. I might be put off if she were turned on by things I find disturbing, or if she were actively seeking out fantasy sex material to indulge in on her own, but I think it’s natural to find sex… sexy.

It’s not that I want the man in the story.

This is the impression that I get if I hear a woman go on about a particular guy, though. That kind of thing–I mean if she were hot for a particular guy, and not just noticing in passing that a guy is attractive, but hot for another guy–would definitely put me off.

But witnessing a couple really getting it on and who are really into each other – that’s hot.

I agree.

Jesus Mahoney

Dog,

I’m taking your advice. I’m planning a few days in Woodstock for us.

Thanks.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I’m taking your advice. I’m planning a few days in Woodstock for us.

Yay! That sounds perfect. xoxo

Jesus Mahoney

Mike C,

I don’t know how long you’ve been with your GF, but it might be time to really open up about your childhood beyond just “bits and pieces” and try to talk through some of these issues/concerns with her. At the end of the day, you have to work this through WITH HER, not an Internet blog.

Yea, I already invited her over for tomorrow to talk about things. I still have no idea how to approach it.

I’m not sure if this is possible for you, but my sense is you get immersed in these thoughts. I think you’ve got to find some way to kind of turn off the overanalysis/overthinking.

Usually I don’t focus on these things because it’s very overwhelming. The thinking and analysis are means by which to protect my feelings, probably.

Jesus Mahoney

Jackie,

Sorry to hear about your sister getting mugged. And thank you for the comment. Much as it saddens me to know your parents have gone through that kind of pain, it gives me hope to hear about their relationship.

Thank you for the advice, too. I’ve decided to get away a few days the Monday or Tuesday after Easter, so I’ll have some time away from here.

Enjoy the holiday. It was good to hear from you.

Jesus Mahoney

Jackie & Saywhaat,

I second that. JM, you should go to therapy. I’m like you in that I tend to get immersed in my own thoughts, and talking to someone outside that really helps.

Thanks, I’m considering it.

Dogsquat

@JM (or somebody else, maybe):

Hopefully you’ll see this before you go. A bit more advice, if I may:

Be very, very careful about unloading your mental baggage on your girlfriend.

There is a tendency in women (might be men, too, but I’ve never dated one of those) to hear stuff like this, ruminate….and make it about them.

I’m not talking shit, just pointing out a tendency people have early on in relationships. It’s natural and born of self-preservation. There is no right-or-wrong, good-or-bad about it.

When you tell someone who’s “in like/early love” something horrible you’ve been through, they’re initially going to be all supportive and huggy and coo at you. You’ll feel….whatever it is you’re gonna feel.

There are wheels-a-turning in their head, though – make no mistake. The questions will bob to the surface of their mind – “Hmm…What am I signing myself up for? Is this going to be worth it? Is this person sufficiently healed? How will this affect me in 5 or 20 years? Did this person do something I find morally reprehensible? Can I still be attracted to this person knowing XYZ?”

Sometimes, you’re going to get asked a bunch of questions. The person is gathering information to answer those questions. That process can go on a long time – years, even. Sometimes, you’ll get grilled when you don’t want to talk about it anymore – months later, maybe. Other times, you won’t even notice the subtle inquiries.

Once in awhile, unfortunately, the person will eject with no warning or explanation given. That, my friend, is the absolute worst. It will change you permanently – adds a little more scar tissue to the rest.

Again, this isn’t bad or wrong. You’re surprising the other person, in a way. It’s fair that they’d need to do some sorting of this new information. It’ll pop into their head at odd times. They’ll ask about what’s bugging them. Their feelings about what they learn may evolve over time, or change depending on mood/relationship dynamics.

You’ve done this. I’ve done it. Everybody reading this has.

It is a risk, this disclosure – make no mistake.

Now, honor and honesty dictate you disclose those aspects that might affect her. If you have commitment issues, she rates a Cliff’s Notes version of why. If you hate clowns, a short telling of the scary clown thing when you were 5 is appropriate.

My girlfriend knows not to touch me when I’m yelling and screaming in my sleep, for example. I told her I sometimes (much less frequently, these days, thank Whomever) have dreams about war shit, and I don’t want to hurt her on accident. That’s it – no more than that.

She also knows that I require some form of communication initiated by her at least once a day, even if it’s a 1 minute phone call like,”Hi [Horrible Pet Name], I’m home. I had a long day and I’m tired. See you [whenever]. Night, be safe at work.”

She knows that I’ve been cheated on, and dealt with an ex being assaulted. Her doing this helps keep my mind at ease and is part of the price-of-admission to DogsquatLand. No more information is necessary.

One day, if she really wants to know the whole story, I might tell her about the cheating thing and some other stuff. She doesn’t need to know the war shit, ever.

There’s not really an upside to disclosing the things that give me pain, in combing over them in exquisite detail with her. She’s not going to fix it. There’s no point in asking a woman who loves you to share these burdens, because she can’t. All you end up doing is making her feel pain, too.

That momentary relief, that unburdening of Ugly, doesn’t even feel that good. It’s a form of procrastination. The Ugly will still be there tomorrow, only now she feels a little of it, too. Worse, a good woman will become depressed, frustrated, and/or angry when she realizes that she cannot help you. Making a good woman who loves you feel worthless when she’s anything but is a Bad Thing.

Caveat – the only exception I can think of for matters like these is in instances where a woman has been the victim of a sexual assault. Some women gain strength from knowing they are found desirable, loved, and accepted status post assault.

Now, you ask with baited breath, who the hell can I tell this shit to? I don’t like what it’s doing to me and I need some outside perspective! If not My Love, then who?

Good question, dude. I couldn’t have asked it any better my own self.

The answer is your therapist.

It’s counter-intuitive, but I have found the mere act of paying somebody to smear The Ugly on is way better than doing it to people I love. The context is different. I don’t have to wonder if they’re handling it okay. I don’t have to tone down the language, or edit around someone else’s traumas. I don’t worry that they’ll tell their friend, who’ll tell somebody else, who’ll tell my mom, etc.

If they react badly to The Ugly I can fire them and find somebody else. I don’t have to keep Game in mind, or make it up to them, or anything else. It’s human contact, but it’s in a professional context.

Some things about therapists while I’m bashing away on this here keyboard:

Some of them are fucking stupid. Some of them are doing it because they’re so screwed up themselves that they can’t do anything else. Some will not be good at dealing with your specific set of issues. Some will have personalities that don’t mesh with yours.

That’s fine – fire ’em and make an appointment with somebody else.

Some good advice that was given to me is give a brainshrinker 3 sessions as a trial run. If it’s not working out, if you’re still spinning your wheels at that point, move on. Expect this to happen at least twice.

Once you do find a good fit, don’t expect it to be easy. It is not. It is work, man. It sucks. It’s not like getting a shot of morphine, or even like physical therapy. It’s weird. Weird and hard. I can’t even describe it, actually.

Two cents, free of charge.

Good luck, Jesus. I’ll be sending some positive vibes to The Great Magnet on your behalf.

Jason773

I hear from young women whose boyfriends want anal only, and they suffer from painful fissures. I just read a book by a gynecologist talking about everything related to female sexual physiology, and it was very interesting. One thing she said is that she can always tell immediately which women regularly engage in anal sex, because even in their 20s, the anus is permanently opened a bit. She cautions that women need to be aware that the anus is designed as a one-way street. Years of anal sex leaves people unable to hold their stools in. Caveat emptor.

Who the hell are these guys who only want anal? It makes me think that there would be some deep rooted homosexuality there. Yea, it’s fun every now and again, but vaginal sex just feels better imo.

Ted D

Susan- wait a sec… So when you read these books, you are not placing yourself in the story, but you are still turned on by the sex scenes?…

I’m with JM, that is not how I define “fantasizing” at all. That sounds more like watching a TV. For real, most people DON’T place themselves in the stories they read? Guess I can add this to the many ways I am an odd bird then, because the reason I enjoy reading fiction is because I get into the story. If I get a few chapters in and I can’t buy into the story, I bail on the book and move on. What I think you are saying is you read books like watching a movie, which is an entirely different thing.

I’ve honestly never given a thought to wondering if other people read books the same way, even though I’ve discussed plenty of books with people.

I need to think on this a bit. I would be much less upset by my SO reading this stupid book if she wasn’t really into it in the sense of putting herself IN the story. For me the issue is, I think as is JM’s, that I would be hurt and feel used if my SO were to read it, put herself in the main females place, got hot from it, and then came to me for the real deal. In that case, I would simply feel like a proxy dick that she didn’t really want but needed to “get off”. Yes, I know it would be more than that since we have a relationship, but at the core of it THAT is my issue with romance novels.

So perhaps I need to have a discussion about how she reads? Lol. Sounds stupid but until today I kinda assumed everyone read the way I do…

On second thought, I shouldn’t be surprised by this. I listen to many odd types of music because I “get into” them by listening to the layers, paying close attention to effects like reverb and delay applied to the instruments, the chord movements and key changes, in some cases literally hundreds of details. When my SO first “caught” me listening to dance/trance music, she asked me why I listen to that noise. I started pointing some of those details out, and she laughed and said she had never given one moments thought to that kind of stuff, and I asked her why she listened to music at all? She said she likes to dance, sing, and likes background noise. Lol. However she has learned a bit of appreciation for the details that go into writing and recording now that she has seen me doing it. And, she doesn’t look at me like I’ve lost my mind when a song comes in the radio and I say how much I love the reverb effect on the snare drum. :p

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

If I get a few chapters in and I can’t buy into the story, I bail on the book and move on. What I think you are saying is you read books like watching a movie, which is an entirely different thing.

Yes, I read a book as a witness to the story, not an actor. Are you saying that you actually become one of the characters in a book? If so, I think that is very unusual. To me, film is just a different medium for storytelling. Books are another, oral storytelling and ballads another. But they all are about someone else rather than me. My involvement comes about when I feel emotions as a result of what I read.

IDK, when I read a really good sex scene, the description of it arouses me – I feel it physically, but I don’t desire the male character. For example, the idea of actually kissing Mr. Darcy rather than having Elizabeth Bennet kiss him would never occur to me. On the other hand, Colin Firth in the 1996 BBC adaptation of Pride and Prejudice is extremely physically attractive, and that role turned him into a heartthrob. I’m sure there are many women who have fantasized about him, IDK. I recall that in the novel Bridget Jones, she is obsessed with Colin Firth and thinks he’s dreamy, but she wants him to get together with Jennifer Ehle, the woman who played Elizabeth in the BBC production.

I’m going to see if I can learn more about female fantasies – this may differ from woman to woman.

http://deleted Jason773

Dogsquat,

Interesting post, but I think you may be projecting the male fear of crazy/broken onto females. If a female is in the really really like/early love/love stage, there is a good chance that she will feel even more connected after unloading some baggage on her. Women are just built like that. Most actively want to be nurturing, caring and be able to ‘fix’, or at least help, a part of their SO that is hurt and broken. There is a huge female capacity for that. It’s in line with the alpha foot forward, and beta vulnerability being extracted out by her special being.

Now, of course, if a female is still feeling you out, ‘kinda likes’ you and is still unsure, then this may make her run for the hills, but anything past that stage and she will most likely want to stick around.

Dogsquat

@Ted D

“And, she doesn’t look at me like I’ve lost my mind when a song comes in the radio and I say how much I love the reverb effect on the snare drum. :p”
_____________________________

Best reverb snare ever = Radio edit of The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel.

Dogsquat

Jason773 said:

“If a female is in the really really like/early love/love stage, there is a good chance that she will feel even more connected after unloading some baggage on her. ”
______________________________

I totally agree with you – SOME baggage renders you human.

I’m afraid of snakes, and I don’t care who knows it. Fucking things creep me out, even on TV. I have a buddy who lost his job awhile back and ran up a bunch of credit card debt. He’s employed now, but still getting back on his feet, living the frugal life. Even something like avoiding booze due to a parent’s alcoholism – all that stuff’s fine. It fits in with what you’re saying.

That’s not what I’m talking about.

When the issues are so deep-seated and serious they twist a guy up and take control of his life – that is the Bad Stuff. An otherwise mature, capable man behaving in a self-destructive, rudderless, reactive manner – that will chip away at the attraction.

A guy who is vocally hateful about gay dudes regardless of venue because he was molested as a kid and fears people will find out and question his sexuality is an example. Others would be a guy who becomes enraged/ depressed when being spoken to in a tone of voice that reminds him of his abusive mother, or a combat vet who cries after sex because he’s killed more people than he’s fucked and he hates that fact.

Jason773 said:

” Most actively want to be nurturing, caring and be able to ‘fix’, or at least help, a part of their SO that is hurt and broken. There is a huge female capacity for that. It’s in line with the alpha foot forward, and beta vulnerability being extracted out by her special being.”
______________________________

The key words are “fix or at least help”.

Lots of times women can’t, no matter how hard they want to. The guy’s continuing behavior, despite the woman’s best attempts at fixing and helping, can seem like rubbing her nose in her own failings. Most folks won’t stick around long for that.

You’re an RN, or at least in nursing school, right? Look at your male patients who are addicts. Usually, the women who stick by those guys come from families with one or more addicts in them. Women without that pathology in their past don’t stick around. It goes from “want to help him” to “I tried my best, but this loser can’t control himself and he makes me feel bad, I’m out” pretty quick.

I agree with you that no man is an island, and it’s stupid to conceal all quirks/negative things about oneself. But….

Your girlfriend is not your therapist.

http://deleted Jason773

You’re an RN, or at least in nursing school, right? Look at your male patients who are addicts. Usually, the women who stick by those guys come from families with one or more addicts in them. Women without that pathology in their past don’t stick around. It goes from “want to help him” to “I tried my best, but this loser can’t control himself and he makes me feel bad, I’m out” pretty quick.

Not a nurse, actually an engineer, but I was just advocating colleges with nursing school as a great place for young guys to meet women, as my first gf was a nurse. And I definitely agree with you that a gf shouldn’t be a therapist, but letting her in on the deep/dark part of you will still make her feel connected. She might actually be able to help, and make you feel more secure, or not, but you’re right in that if you don’t have a grip on your own issues, and you’re self-destructive, then a sane girl will end up leaving anyways.

I wouldn’t take JM to be self-destructive to a point of dark pathology, so opening up (if his gf really feels that strongly about him) might even make them stronger.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Dogsquat, different people have different capacities to do that role. My Myers Briggs is INFJ, and so is my husband. We play therapist for each other all the time. The INFJ’s archetype is the “counselor,” and the profession is even recommended to us on various sites. :p

I do agree that one shouldn’t unload everything and expect the best results. But it’s still much better to unload when she’s still feeling the glow of initial, passionate love and has dopamine swimming around in her head. You can throw a large object on a raging flame and have it burn away. When that burning fire cools off, and you lay it on, that’s could end up suffocating the oxygen from the fire.

My husband and I would not be as close as we are today without all of that upfront disclosure of the demons in our closets. And honestly, once you expose the “dark” stuff to the light, it’s not so scary anymore. We have both cried in each other’s arms, and we have both felt so much closer because of it.

No therapist can help heal a man as effectively as a woman who truly loves him and accepts him, EVERY part of him. Nobody is perfect, but love allows for imperfections. Maybe it’s idealistic of me, but I believe in true love. I also believe in healing a person sufficiently that the person loves him or herself enough to finish the healing job. The other INFJ archetype? The Healer.

Sassy6519

The key words are “fix or at least help”.

Lots of times women can’t, no matter how hard they want to. The guy’s continuing behavior, despite the woman’s best attempts at fixing and helping, can seem like rubbing her nose in her own failings. Most folks won’t stick around long for that.

You’re an RN, or at least in nursing school, right? Look at your male patients who are addicts. Usually, the women who stick by those guys come from families with one or more addicts in them. Women without that pathology in their past don’t stick around. It goes from “want to help him” to “I tried my best, but this loser can’t control himself and he makes me feel bad, I’m out” pretty quick.

I agree with you that no man is an island, and it’s stupid to conceal all quirks/negative things about oneself. But….

Your girlfriend is not your therapist.

Bingo. When I heard my ex’s baggage, my first instinct was to try to help him and support him. He still had pretty bad symptoms from his own demons, but I thought he would put in the effort to heal himself. I was so wrong.

Instead of trying to make himself better or fix the situation, he continued to mire in self pity, and I couldn’t do anything to help him.

Despite my own training/school to become a licensed therapist, I couldn’t tolerate it for long.

No therapist can help heal a man as effectively as a woman who truly loves him and accepts him, EVERY part of him. Nobody is perfect, but love allows for imperfections. Maybe it’s idealistic of me, but I believe in true love. I also believe in healing a person sufficiently that the person loves him or herself enough to finish the healing job. The other INFJ archetype? The Healer.

I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with this. There are some things, in the healing process, that therapists can provide that the love of a man or woman cannot. The principal thing is objectivity in the situation and detachment. With a therapist, a person can spill every ounce of their baggage without having to wonder how it will affect them. They are trained to handle practically anything, and they are also not personally involved in the patient’s life.

Telling a loved one about your baggage is helpful, but it doesn’t compare at all to spilling your guts to a trusted stranger and not being afraid to show anger and complete misery to them as well. A therapist is someone you can do that with without having to worry about any of your baggage affecting them.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Jesus Mahoney, you say you are still “clueless” as to how to approach it with your girl. Yes, it’s awkward to bring up this kind of subject out of the blue. It’s also not something you want to do casually. I would suggest that you bring it up at night, in the dark, while cuddled up with her in bed and holding each other closely.

Bring it up by first talking about the current issue: romance novels. Say that it makes you feel uncomfortable and apprehensive (and whatever else) that she’s reading the 50 Shades book. Say you don’t blame her for wanting to check out the book because it’s a popular thing, but that this is really triggering your own baggage.

Use the word “baggage,” own up to it, and let her know it is a huge issue for you, and that you hadn’t realized just how big until the emotional impact has weighed on you so much over the past couple of weeks. Keep holding her so that she knows you don’t loathe her, and to reassure and comfort you both.

Then tell her more details about what your mother and brother did, how they made you feel, and how you are projecting (and you are) some of those feelings onto the girl who loves you now, even though you know that she is not intentionally trying to hurt you. You are repeating these old, unhealthy patterns of interactions, because deep down you do still crave that love from your mother, she did give birth to you, and is the first woman you ever loved.

But your mother didn’t love you properly, and that has caused emotional and psychological scars that, although you have mostly been able to deal with, sometimes come back with a vengeance. And when they come back, you feel unable to truly bond with any woman, you feel resentful toward anything that reminds you of this broken bond with your mother, and you get into a self-destructive mode where because your mother and brother made you feel “not good enough,” you hate and want to hurt yourself and those whom you love, because that is how you felt as a little boy.

It’s why you started smoking again and why you want to shut down emotionally, because that’s how you know to protect yourself. But you don’t want to keep repeating the patterns; you want to break the patterns and overcome the past. But you need your girl to be there for you, to not unwittingly trigger that baggage, and to show you love. That little boy was so wounded, and the scars still hurt when they are poked. The romance novel might be a minor thing to other people, but to you it is threatening to break open those old wounds. You want to heal, and you are trying to heal, and love is what will help you heal.

…I may have put some words in your mouth that you would never say, but I think it would be good to have this conversation with her. I have been there, had an abusive mother and a missing father, and also had self-destructive tendencies and repeated negative patterns. I could also have projected some of those onto you here, but I think at least I can relate. You don’t have to hide this part of your past. Don’t deny what has shaped you and is part of who you are. Love yourself and accept yourself, with the help of other people’s love.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Sassy, it is not like the therapist isn’t human and cannot feel for strangers. In fact I would argue the best therapists get to know their patients and care deeply for them.

There are studies that show doctors who touch their patients and look them in the eye provide better patient outcomes:

We need that human connection, even when it’s with a “stranger.” And didn’t we all start out as strangers? My husband and I had only known each other for a short time when he started playing “therapist” for me. We knew each other no better than strangers. I didn’t even know what he looked like. But his care and concern shone through his words.

Love is not all romantic. There is parental love, platonic love, and love for other people, animals, plants, and all life. These are all fundamental forces of the universe, and all have the capacity to heal.

Sassy6519

@ Hope

I never said that therapists lack empathy, or the ability to show concern for their patients. That’s their job. The difference is, however, there is a line of professional etiquette that shouldn’t be crossed between a patient and therapist. A therapist’s job is to be an objective sounding board for their patients. They give advice and try to help, but they are never directly affected by their patient’s problems.

That’s what they can offer that a romantic partner cannot. They are able to remain detached, objective, and directly unaffected by their patient’s problems.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

I’m going to see if I can learn more about female fantasies – this may differ from woman to woman.

Well the bitch that wrote Lost in Austen that is about a woman that travels back in time and space and steals Elizabeth’s man while she takes her place in the modern world-single and probably on her way to catlady- obviously dreams about being Elizabeth. Can you tell I hate that premise? I’m a huge shipper most of the time. But then I like both Lizzy and Darcy romances like Gone with the wind leave me cold because bitch and bastard didn’t made me root for them to find happiness but maybe end up in jail somehow and pay for all the pain the caused for their selfishness, although I did felt sorry when their daughter and their unborn baby died, that was a bit too karmic for my taste, but aside from that Lost in Tara might not had been that offensive, YMMV.

I personally do both things sometimes I’m a witness sometimes I get into the character’s skin as long as the character is not in a real dangerous situation but funny enough I get into both the male and the female. I do wonder if that is why I don’t like reading the sex scenes. If I’m both I’m not there in a sexual way but more in like emotional way and the sex breaks that connection because is not like that at all. Who knows?

@Sassy @Hope

You are both right and wrong it depends on the style of loving of the partner in Hope’s case her husband reacts well to this level of intimacy and touch during therapy and frankly the reason many patients feel attracted to their therapists is due to having this kind of style for attachment so is better that Hope does it than someone else. But on other cases people need a detached witness to express all their demons and feel exorcised from them. Like confessing to a priest, there is a level of comfort on talking to an authoritative figure and have him or her guide you through the process.
My own husband doesn’t react well at all to talking, for him talking about bad things like living them all over again but I did noticed that when he feels bad touching him, hugging him hard without saying nothing works wonders for his personal healing process so that is what I do. I am the opposite talking endlessly out loud forces me to hear my demons and once I hear them I see how silly I had been and how in the great scheme of things I’m just making a storm in a glass of water. So I will say is good to observe your partner and find the best way to help them, whether seeking help or holding them while letting them talk, YMMV.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Sassy, sure, and there were plenty of professionals who visited with us after our son’s death. They were quite detached and unaffected by our problems, and offered us therapy.

However, what helped me the most was my husband and my mother-in-law being there for me. We were all affected by the death, and our shared grief and love for each other as well as for our lost baby comforted us more than any professional. We mourned together, we got through that time together, and we emerged closer as a family together. I was very fortunate to have that.

A therapist might have been able to offer the logical sounding board, but I’m already quite logical. I know the logic, the objective, the detached, and I don’t need to pay someone else to point out the same thing that I can read from a book or pamphlet or on a Website. I needed someone to comfort me, a shoulder to cry on, someone who would understand me, love me and share my grief. The emotional body is best healed with love, and I believe this now more than ever.

Here, everybody’s default answer to someone with a traumatic past is “therapy.” Therapy, antidepressants, drugs, and professionals who are logical, objective, and detached. Yet so many people who are in therapy are not happier, not feeling better, not really getting over their problems. I come from a family of doctors, so it isn’t that I don’t appreciate modern science and pharmaceuticals. But my observation and experience tell me that love is more powerful than SSRIs for psychological healing.

Dogsquat

Hope, I appreciate what you’re saying. You are correct about many things in the above posts. Part of what we’re disagreeing about is how detailed the disclosure should be. I recommend the minimum amount to satisfy honor and honesty. You’re saying to bare one’s soul, ask for acceptance, and then count on the other person for help.

Your way is how I’d expect spouses to act toward each other. My way probably isn’t the best thing for a marriage.

Don’t forget that you and JM are in much different positions. You have a long, strong history with your husband. You’ve seen each other in all kinds of circumstances. I’ll bet I could give you a scenario, and you could accurately predict his response to it to five decimal places.

JM (and myself, for that matter) are not in the same boat. Not. At. All. Maybe in a few years, but until then, I strongly advise men to be very, very cautious about doing a few of the things you suggest.

My way is much less risky. You can always disclose these things later. You can never un-say them, though.

Dogsquat

Ana said:
“But on other cases people need a detached witness to express all their demons and feel exorcised from them. Like confessing to a priest, there is a level of comfort on talking to an authoritative figure and have him or her guide you through the process.”
___________________________

It’s really hard to explain this to someone who hasn’t experienced it.

One of the turning points in my life was on a crisp fall day, around lunchtime, walking to my car after some time with a good brainshrinker. I realized I’d just been perfectly honest with another person – no front, no blunting words, no consideration for our future relationship at all.

Quite a strange, but good feeling. I doubt I’d be as happy as I am now if I’d never felt that.

J

@Hope #464

That was a really insightful post!

Sassy6519

It’s really hard to explain this to someone who hasn’t experienced it.

One of the turning points in my life was on a crisp fall day, around lunchtime, walking to my car after some time with a good brainshrinker. I realized I’d just been perfectly honest with another person – no front, no blunting words, no consideration for our future relationship at all.

Quite a strange, but good feeling. I doubt I’d be as happy as I am now if I’d never felt that.

Exactly.

I’ve been to a therapist too. It was amazing. I didn’t have to censor myself. I didn’t have to worry about what they thought of me. I didn’t have to worry about judgement. I was able to say things that I would never be able to get away with saying to a person that I knew personally. I cried. I screamed. I was angry. I was miserable without worrying about my appearance. It was liberating.

I think the ultimate healing process is to see a therapist for the utter unabridged sounding board and to have a person you love for the emotional support and stability. Both people serve their own respective purposes.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

It’s really hard to explain this to someone who hasn’t experienced it.

I agree. I’m pretty sure Hope’s way is the best for her and her spouse but it doesn’t work the same for every couple on every stage, YMMV.

J

I have a question, and I’m not judging you or your marriage based on it: do you know of other men who are physically more appealing than your husband?

If you’re doing a survey of old, married ladies, I know that there are men more appealing than my husband, but I have to say that, even after nearly a quarter century together, I stil think my DH is a pretty hot guy. FWIW, he’s a shortish, stocky guy with salt and pepper curls, a heavy 5 o’clok shadow, a Roman coin profile and big, brown puppy eyes (alpha and beta traits). He’s also significantly heavier than he used to be.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Dogsquat, my husband and I had disclosure conversations a few weeks into knowing each other. Really, we started the disclosures almost immediately. I think JM has been with his gf for a couple of months, at least. I’m a fan of honesty, truth and open communication.

I was burned by a guy who waited nearly a decade to drop some bombs on me. He lied through his teeth about who he was for the whole duration of the relationship. Or, maybe you could call it, “hiding information.” All I can say is. Screw. That. Ask deti how he feels about his wife “coming clean” about demons in her past years after they first got together. I have a pet peeve about this. How the can you expect somebody to really love you if you won’t reveal your true self?

I have vented to strangers before about my past. I’m not one to hold things close to my chest. I travel lightly, so to speak. But venting is only the first step. The real healing has to come from a great deal of acceptance and love. I didn’t have that. So for a long time, I’d just vent, and vent, and keep talking about it to strangers who didn’t give a crap, and not get any better.

Then my husband came along, and within half a year I had healed to the point that I was almost completely a new person. Likewise I healed him. We’re so bonded to each other, in no small part because we were honest upfront. I could have hidden a lot from him, but I didn’t. If he couldn’t deal with it, he could have walked a few weeks after meeting me.

For me, and I think for other NFs as well, the following is apt: “There must be no facade, no mask, no pretense, no sham. To have integrity is to be genuine, to communicate authentically, to be in harmony with the innner experiences of self.”

If Jesus Mahoney is an NF, which he says he is, then part of his struggle is that he is not able to be as authentic as he deeply wishes to be. NFs are also looking for “soul partners, persons with whom they can bond in some special spiritual sense sharing their complex inner lives and communicating intimately about what most concerns them; their feelings and their causes… and their search for wholeness.” He won’t get to this by holding important parts of himself back.

But the choice is his. It’s up to him whether he wants to try for the NF “ideal” or the “normal” relationship most people have. I just made a suggestion from my NF perspective, that’s all. 😛

J

JM–I’ve intentionally stayed out of this dicscussion because I think Hope is handling it so well, but I just want to wish you the best in resolving this issue.

Dogsquat

JasonNumbersNumbersNumbers:

“And I definitely agree with you that a gf shouldn’t be a therapist, but letting her in on the deep/dark part of you will still make her feel connected. She might actually be able to help, and make you feel more secure, or not, but you’re right in that if you don’t have a grip on your own issues, and you’re self-destructive, then a sane girl will end up leaving anyways.”
______________________________

The reason I advise against what you and Hope are advocating is the second word of the second sentence above – MIGHT.

What does “might” mean in that context?

It’s entirely dependent on how JM’s behavior affects his ol’ lady, and how much work she’s got to do to keep him from hurting her. That, in turn, depends on how much work he’s done to overcome his stuff.

Consider these two scenarios:

“Hey, have fun at the bar with your girls tonight. Gimme a call when you get home.”

“Give you a call? Don’t you trust me?”

“Meh. It’s not really about you – it’s me. Long time ago, I had a girlfriend bring a lot of damage into our lives because of some bad choices she made while drunk. I’m not going to go through that again. When you call me later tonight, I’ll know I don’t need to worry about history repeating itself. Thanks for being cool about this. I appreciate it, and, despite your terrible taste in bars, I appreciate you.”

OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE:

“Where are you going tonight? Oh yeah? Who with? Fuck, I don’t like that girl at all. Doesn’t she have a boyfriend? Well then why’d she blow Zee last weekend? Damn. Anyway, let’s check in with each other every hour or so. Keep your phone on, and watch for texts.”

“Don’t you trust me?”

“I want to – I really do. But I’ve been burned really bad in the past. Fucking toasted, actually. I was really in love with my ex, you know. When I deployed, we couldn’t really talk on a regular basis. She ended up cheating on me and getting pregnant. She had a kid with the guy, no shit. I was over there in The Sandbox and had no idea what was going on – the whole time she kept up a facade. I sort of knew something was up, especially after I got wounded and came back stateside, but she managed our communication so well that I didn’t know the real deal for quite awhile. So, I really need you to be accessible. If you’re not, I won’t trust you. I’ll get suspicious and jealous. I don’t want to feel that about you – I really like you.”

The first conversation is basically verbatim – I have had it with every girl I’ve dated for the last five years. It’s never gone badly. Usually, it is beneficial. It’s often the first thing I set boundaries about, and it provides a platform to discuss other boundaries we each may have. It’s a big clue that the girl is being considered seriously.

The second convo is a much, much shorter version of one I had a (very) few times. I’d go on at length, describe in detail what makes me tick, and present a bunch of plans the girl could choose from to make me feel okay in that situation, etc.

There is so much wrong with that steaming emo turd of a conversation it’s hard for me to believe I’ve actually said it. Consider how it makes the girl feel:

-She’s paying for the mistakes of a woman she’s never met
-Her guy doesn’t trust her
-There will probably be drama if she misses a call
-Her guy might still be in love with an ex who fried him
-He doesn’t like and judges her friends
-There’s a bunch more, but you get the drift

…………………………………..

Keeping a guy who would have that second convo happy would be a lot of work. A smart girl would realize that she’s in an almost impossible situation. Who would want that crap in their lives?

The first conversation, though? All it takes is one call, and she can make him feel good. She’s been shown the path toward earning trust and intimacy – and she can take a few steps on said path tonight! There is also a little judicious Dread in there – if she doesn’t live up to expectations, she’ll nuke her chances.

Mike C

For me, and I think for other NFs as well, the following is apt: “There must be no facade, no mask, no pretense, no sham. To have integrity is to be genuine, to communicate authentically, to be in harmony with the innner experiences of self.”

Hope, that is a very interesting site. It explains a ton. I’ve often felt like Jesus and I were speaking foreign languages to each other (I am a SJ), and recall the intense debate about “compromise”. This excerpt from the site really grabbed me as I thought about JM and many of his comments. NFs literally view the world and relationships in a completely different way:

“NF Idealist Mating

***Idealists approach mating quite differently from the other three temperaments. In their own ways the other types tend to be realistic about mating, which is to say that Experiencers, Traditionalists, and Conceptualists assume that mates be fallible, and they will go along with a good deal of compromise in making their marriages work. Idealists, on the other hand, are singularly idealistic about choosing a mate, and most often take up the romantic task of seeking the perfect mate and the ideal relationship, what they call “love of their life” or their “one true love”, joined with them in a match made in heaven and crating a love timeless and eternal. In other words, NF’s are looking for more than life partners in their mates-they want soul partners, persons with whom they can bond in some special spiritual sense sharing their complex inner lives and communicating intimately about what most concerns them; their feelings and their causes, their romantic fantasies and their ethical dilemmas, their inner division, and their search for wholeness. Idealists firmly believe in such deep and meaningful relationships-they settle for nothing less-and in some cases they try to create them where they don’t exist thus creating their Pygmalion Projects.

Given this backdrop, I actually think Hope’s perspective is most useful to JM, although I think Dogsquat is right about how much is too much. One of the things that struck me reading about NFs is not seeing things in terms of gradation.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, thank you for that, and I agree, hopefully the issues can be resolved. I think my view might be in the minority though. Most seem to be advising against honest, heart-to-heart talks before “a few years” have passed.

Dogsquat, there’s a time and place for having heavy conversations. The first convo is fine for that situation because she’s on her way out. The second convo should be saved for another time. It’s why I specifically emphasized cuddling at night and holding each other as the time to bring up such a subject.

My husband has given me various details of how girls in his past have hurt him at various different times. The stuff didn’t all come out at once, but he did tell me a lot within the first month (before we got physical). The rest came later, as he intuitively knew some things are better explained when we’re cuddled up in bed together than over text or on the phone.

How, when, where, body language, tone of voice and the context matter a lot. A lot of communication is nonverbal.

Plus, you first version is worded better. You can still word things in such a way that they don’t make someone defensive even when talking about difficult subjects.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Mike C, yeah, I think INFPs might be also more idealistic than INFJs, too. I tend to be able to get into “NT mode” to analyze things from a more detached manner. JM likes to go either full ideal or full pessimist.

I think Dogsquat’s suggestion to hold back a little bit is fine. Tread lightly at first, calibrate, and pull back if necessary. An empathic person is not one to keep going if the other person doesn’t want to go there. At least, an emotionally aware and astute person wouldn’t do that.

Honesty doesn’t have to be worded like a spear. It can be softened a bit. JM’s a wordsmith. Surely he can come up with something. Tell it like a story, even. “Once upon a time there was a little boy…”

Dogsquat

@Hope:

“Or, maybe you could call it, “hiding information.” All I can say is. Screw. That. Ask deti how he feels about his wife “coming clean” about demons in her past years after they first got together. I have a pet peeve about this. How the can you expect somebody to really love you if you won’t reveal your true self?”
______________________________

Deti’s wife lied.

Lying is wrong, and that is not what I’m advocating.

I am recommending he work on himself, let his girlfriend know the basics of his issues, and evaluate from there. Don’t conflate the two, it’s inaccurate.

Hope said:

“Then my husband came along, and within half a year I had healed to the point that I was almost completely a new person. Likewise I healed him. We’re so bonded to each other, in no small part because we were honest upfront. I could have hidden a lot from him, but I didn’t. If he couldn’t deal with it, he could have walked a few weeks after meeting me.”
___________________________________
Couple things:

I’m glad you’re happy. Sounds like you won the relationship lottery. You found a guy who’s a bit of a “fixer”, and you happened to be a “fixer” too. You meshed in many ways, established trust early, and off you rode into the sunset….

That’s awesome. It’s also very, very, lucky.

Your advice boils down to this:

Dish out all your dirt. Hopefully, she’ll be willing to shoulder the load and help out. If she’s willing, maybe she’ll be capable, too. It’s the easiest and most comfortable way to get where you both wanna go. If it works, it will be wonderful!

Here’s what my advice boils down to:

Get your shit fixed and get in control of yourself. Learn strategies to improve yourself. Take responsibility for your mind. See the world accurately. Engineer work-arounds and patches for those things you dislike about yourself.

Let your SO know what’s going on with you, but don’t make her responsible for how you feel. You can let your lady put the finishing touches on your improvements – a little polish, a little detailed paint. But you, and you alone, are accountable for your actions.

I like reading your stuff, Hope. You and I definitely see things differently, and from that friction comes learning. I happen to disagree quite strongly with your method, and here’s why:

1. My way leaves JM healthier and stronger, even if his GF gets run over by a bus tomorrow.

2. If she’s willing and capable of helping him, she’ll do it. There’s no reason those two can’t end up with a similar situation to yours in this case. My way allows his GF some breathing room, an actual choice in the matter. JM can ease in on slowly if he needs time to process this stuff. You’d have him lay all his issues on her immediately. Hopefully she’s a “fixer”, too!

3. Sheer probability:

a) The amount of people in the world who are willing to assume responsibility for someone else’s happiness is very small. The amount of people willing to do that for someone after knowing them a few weeks or months is even smaller.
b)The amount of people willing to pitch in and really help someone who’s demonstrably busting their ass is much, much greater.

4. You’re relying way too much on luck. Luck is not a method.

Dogsquat

Goddamn.

I see I’m going to have to take one of those four letter test thingies.

You and I might actually be different species, Hope. No wonder we disagree on this.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Dogsquat, we’re really not that far apart in our views.

1) I consider withholding crucial information to be about as bad as lying when it comes to intimate relationships. That’s why I encourage open honesty.

2) I hold the individual accountable and responsible for self-improvement. I think a healthy relationship is when both partners work on the self, and constantly strives toward becoming a better version of the self. There is no need to go at it completely alone, but there is also work that one has to do individually.

If I hadn’t been willing and eager to work on myself, then no matter what kind of support I received, I wouldn’t really get better. And eventually I would exhaust that source of support. It is not fair to ask someone else to prop me up and hold me up. I do not think anyone else should expect this either.

3) I’m not saying JM should lay out everything and expect his girlfriend to “fix” him. I’m saying he needs to talk about it with her instead of letting it fester and stew. He is responsible for his own emotional state (as we are each responsible for our own emotional state). Right now, he’s hurting himself by not being honest.

4) We create some of our own luck. 😉

Dogsquat

Apparently, I am an ENFP.

“Slightly expressed extravert” sounds like some kind of ooze from an infected wound.

Sassy6519

@ Dogsquat

Goddamn.

I see I’m going to have to take one of those four letter test thingies.

You and I might actually be different species, Hope. No wonder we disagree on this.

Do it. Come to the “NT” side.

Mwahahahaha!!!

deti

I side with Dogsquat on this one.

I have this saying:

Not everybody needs to know all the truth all the time.

There may come a time when Jesus M’s GF needs to know all the truth. Now is not that time.

Perhaps she needs to know some of that truth now. She does not need to know all of it now. If she becomes JM’s wife, or they are moving in that direction, perhaps then she will need to know all the truth.

Spouses need to know all the truth all the time. GFs do not.

Sassy6519

Apparently, I am an ENFP.

“Slightly expressed extravert” sounds like some kind of ooze from an infected wound.

Wait, nevermind. You are on the “NF” side.

I’m an ENTP. We aren’t that different. It would explain why your posts make the most sense to me.

I missed you when you were gone from here Dogsquat. The agony, the pure unadulterated agony…..

Dogsquat

Hope, I am totally hung up on this:

1) I consider withholding crucial information to be about as bad as lying when it comes to intimate relationships. That’s why I encourage open honesty.

and

3) I’m not saying JM should lay out everything and expect his girlfriend to “fix” him.

Don’t withhold, but you’re not saying to lay it all out there….

Doesn’t make sense the way I’m seeing it.

Ted D

Susan – yep. When I’m reading I’m in the story, unless it’s an education book and then I stress to memorize stuff since I suck at it.

I read books when I want to engage in a story, I watch a movie when I want to spectate. Probably why my favorite movies are totally unrealistic, meaning NO WAY that it would happen in real life. Think sic-fi or action, lots of car chases, guns, and stuff blowing up. I avoid “tear jerkers” like the plague. I mean honestly, I get enough sadness and depression in day to day life, I don’t need a movie to make me feel like crap.

So reading a sex scene turns you on, but not because you imagine being in it. So, what turns you on about it? Is it simply because you visualize the scene? That doesn’t register to me because generally women aren’t visual in that way, or I would think they would like porn just as much as men do.

I’m confused… :-p

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

So, what turns you on about it? Is it simply because you visualize the scene? That doesn’t register to me because generally women aren’t visual in that way, or I would think they would like porn just as much as men do.

Yes. I guess I like to watch.

I recently read that 25% of women do watch porn. I do not, but I have before. I didn’t find it sexy at all, mostly because the woman’s needs are such a low priority, I guess, and there was no emotion. I wrote a post a while back about what straight men can learn from gay porn, and when I watched some gay male porn I thought it was really hot. I guess it was the high penis factor, I dunno. I’ve read that a lot of straight women do watch gay porn. And there’s no question that 50 Shades is erotica, which is porn.

Dogsquat

Sassy, I have that effect on women.

ba-doom-tish

pennies

Delurking to add the following: JM should consider his gf’s Myers Briggs type when approaching any kind of disclosure. I’m an ENFP who loves to gab about motivation/’the big WHY?’ but I know I have to tone it down with my INTP boyfriend. I couldn’t go full-out Dogsquat with him if there was a ‘want a check-in phone call after the bar’ scenario.

I’d probably say something like, “Call me before bed. It’d be fun to hear your voice before I fall asleep. And we can take a few minutes to plan an outing for later in the weekend.” No way I’d cop to being that worried and insecure because my partner values his independence so highly. He would consider it a total buzzkill if I said something serious before his night out.

With an NF, I’d divulge more because I know they’d probably enjoy analyzing my disclosure to death. On the phone before the night out. And later in bed. With me. Like a team sport.

It’s about two people’s personality and approach, not one.

I think context is important, too. Who is she? Is she a teacher who likes to write as well? If she’s had a liberal arts education, it’s likely she’s going to value her right to fantasize and read whatever she likes. Blue state teachers and librarians tend to be big on that. You don’t want to come off as a creative writing guy who is into censorship.

Further, she might not even know what the word ‘alpha’ means to you or have thought about ‘alpha’ versus ‘beta’ all that much. And she might approach reading the way Susan does — in an observational way and not a participatory way. She might only have picked up the book because she likes conversing about the latest cultural studies phenomenon.

All things to keep in mind before you make it into a ‘big talk.’

Perhaps she’d respond better to a non-serious, non-high stakes, sideways musing such as… “I’d always imagined that the guys in books like 50 Shades are brutish and assholes, kind of like my older brother. Yuck. It’s a mystery to me why women would enjoy reading about a man who doesn’t respect them.”

My guess is she would say that chic lit books or romances are fun for a variety of reasons. Some women read them because they enjoy reading descriptions of a man’s personality unfolding like an onion. Or, as someone mentioned above, descriptions of two people coming together. Reading about two people flirting makes me fondly reminisce about my coming together with my current guy. Some women enjoy reading them in a tongue-in-cheek way and making fun a bit while they read along. I’m not a huge romance reader but reading a chic it book on a plane is the same to me as watching a tv show. I like reading about relationships and motivations and if I’m not able to concentrate on something more serious, it’s a nice distraction. But I also mock the book as I read. Most women aren’t as hardcore into shopping and Manolos as those books say. So I roll my eyes and count myself informed about stereotypes of single women living in Manhattan.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Pennies

Welcome, and thanks for delurking. I love all the support for JM in this thread, from both women and men. It makes me feel really good about our virtual living room here, and how people have each other’s backs. So glad you joined us!

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Dogsquat, I meant lay it all out (including non-crucial information) AND expect her to fix him.

And the ex did lie to me and also withheld information. I reacted to both the same way. I lost all respect.

deti, LTRs sometimes lead to marriages. Imagine how things might be different if your wife disclosed her past within the first month?

Dogsquat

Steel on target, Miss Pennies!

Great suggestion with the oblique approach.

Ted D

Mike C – great link! One of the best descriptions of INTJ I’ve seen.

It’s really funny how the description explains certain behaviors.

deti

hope:

“deti, LTRs sometimes lead to marriages. Imagine how things might be different if your wife disclosed her past within the first month?”

yes, sometimes LTRs do lead to marriages.

First month of what? Of my dating her or my being married to her?

Hard to say how things would have been different. The old deti probably would have simpered along and caused her to lose respect for me anyway, leading to an early divorce. But the fact that I’m still married to Mrs. deti does not mean it was good that she hid it for 15 years.

JM’s situation is different. He doesn’t need to tell her everything. If he’s moving toward marriage, then he probably does. But that’s not where he is right now. Hence:

Not everybody needs to know all the truth all the time.

Mike C

Mike C – great link! One of the best descriptions of INTJ I’ve seen.

It’s really funny how the description explains certain behaviors.

Yeah, very interesting stuff as I continue to read through it. I’m a SJ paired with a NT. I suspect based on what I’ve read that most NFs would find the sort of relationship we have deeply unsatisfying. There is no doubt we both love each other, but we don’t have much in the way of “deep soulful communication” that it seems NFs need. I suspect to a NF it might even seem a bit superficial or shallow.

The more I delve into this MB personality stuff, I think it is just as important if not more important to relationship dynamics as the slpha-beta spectrum stuff.

Dogsquat, I admit I’m surprised you are an NF. You don’t strike me as the idealist type unless a lot of your real world experience has tempered that side of you with a bit more realism and pragmatism.

I think this stuff impacts communications as well. As a SJ, I’m heavy on facts and figures, what I can see, touch, and observe. Honestly, I often feel like much discussion of abstract thoughts and concepts borders on mental masturbation but I can see how that is critically important to other personality types.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

So reading a sex scene turns you on, but not because you imagine being in it. So, what turns you on about it? Is it simply because you visualize the scene? That doesn’t register to me because generally women aren’t visual in that way, or I would think they would like porn just as much as men do.

I think men are visual with their eyes while women are visual with their minds and words. That is why porn aimed to women has a lot of words and some background for the characters they are painting the picture with words and scenario while men go for direct banging, showing it. Is different types of visualization but they are visualization nevertheless, YMMV.

Dogsquat

Hmm. I see your point, Hope.

I still think your way puts way too much pressure on a new relationship. Doing it the way Pennies suggests makes it more palatable, but….damn.

I wonder if you and my GF aren’t the same personality type. You certainly shared the same strategy. About three weeks in, she asked me out for coffee and talk. She told me a bunch of mushy-cheesy stuff about liking me more than anyone ever blah blah blah – and then said:

“Before I get more attached, I need to tell you some things so you can decide whether-or-not we fit.”

She was pale and her palms were sweaty. Pale, cool, and diaphoretic as we say in the Meat Wagon trade. I wanted to give her oxygen and start an IV on her, she looked so bad. She made me nervous just sitting there. I was thinking,”Oh, great. Here’s where she tells me she’s married, has AIDS, and is moving to Subic Bay to found a leper colony.”

Then she told me a bunch of stuff.

I was all,”That’s it? Nah, come on! Really? You were worried about THAT?”

So it worked out for her, too.

I will say, though, that if she’d said anything remotely close to a dealbreaker for me, I’d have thanked her for her honesty and LJBF’ed her. Pow. Right then. No chance for redemption, or for showing she’s changed, or for making me doubt my criteria.

That’s risky.

Ted D

Anacanoa – interesting. So it is imagining the scene, with all the “story” behind it, that triggers the reaction. But this all happens as an observer…

So standard porn doesn’t work with women because they don’t know the characters or thier motivations for having sex? Meaning women are turned on by “emo-porn” because they know the motivations and thoughts of the characters?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

So standard porn doesn’t work with women because they don’t know the characters or thier motivations for having sex? Meaning women are turned on by “emo-porn” because they know the motivations and thoughts of the characters?

I would say this is true, but love and intimacy have to be the emotions.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

deti, I don’t get into relationships lightly, and I’m quite serious when in love. So I wouldn’t treat my husband differently now than when he was my boyfriend.

Mike C, yeah, seems like different personality types live in almost different worlds.

pennies

Thank you, Mr. Dogsquat. I can’t believe I am rooting so hard for someone on the Internets to pull off a successful conversation, but I am… Go JM! Love that woman hard!

Relurking now…

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

So standard porn doesn’t work with women because they don’t know the characters or thier motivations for having sex? Meaning women are turned on by “emo-porn” because they know the motivations and thoughts of the characters?

I wouldn’t say it doesn’t work but is usually not seek out as much as the romance. In One Billion Wicked thoughts you can see how women fuel the romance industry with millions of dollars but is men the ones that do the same for porn. Few men spent a lot of money and time in Romance and few women spent money and time in porn.
So most of the time you will have a hard time having female aimed porn where there is not some seduction and background involved, YMMV.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Dogsquat, yes, very risky. But it’s also smart. If I take that risk and get rejected in under a month, it’s far better than years down the road and wasting all that time.

A new relationship can withstand a lot of pressure. You press down hard to form a solid foundation. But old relationships will crack when its foundation was found to have tons of holes. At least, this is my opinion.

Pennies, I think your approach is generally good, and I’ve done variations of it. I’ve brought up past issues in a light, humorous or “not a big deal” way, but in those cases I’d already dealt with them and moved past them.

In JM’s case, he hasn’t really moved past this issue. Yes he does need to work on it, but he can’t really work on it alone. You can’t regain trust in a woman’s love without having a woman’s love reaffirmed. Again, my opinion, and it could be true he could never say a peep about it to her and come out just fine. My way is definitely riskier, but I’m a fan of taking risks for love. Makes for a better story. 😉

Dogsquat

Mike, I’m interested in that as well. It might be because I’ve gotten entirely too much sleep, too much sex, too many good things happening with work and school, and a lot of free time lately. I’m one happy SOB right now, and that’s sort of unusual. “Happy” is not how I’d normally describe myself.

I don’t fit a lot of the stuff in the description – but in other ways it was accurate.

I’m a people person and generally well liked. I hate cleaning and dealing with money, so I pay people to do it for me. I would die of boredom in 32 seconds if my job was pushing paper. I am prepared for emergencies at all times (fortunate, considering that’s my job) and I do get frustrated with people who aren’t.

This one fits, too:

“ENFPs hate bureaucracy, both in principle and in practice; they will always make a point of launching one of their crusades against some aspect of it. ”

That’s gotten me in trouble before. I’m on a crusade right now at one place I work, actually.

But this line:

“ENFPs are characteristically optimistic and are surprised when people or evnts do not turn out as anticipated. Often their confidence in the innate goodness of fate and human nature is a self-fulfilling prophesy. ”

Oh, man. I actually got a good 30 second belly laugh out of that. Humans are not what these other ENFPs think they are. Poor dumb bastards.

I think the key is – is she an NF or not. If she is, Hope’s approach is likely the best. If she’s not, a less heavy introduction to the topic is probably better and then it can be revisited a day or two later in a more intense way. If she’s an NT, she might have very strong feelings about someone suggesting she not read or think about certain things. It might freak her out because it smacks of censorship.

It really depends on her personality and politics. If I had to give one piece of advice, it would be to separate the “women who read certain types of books disgust me” stance + all the alpha/beta talk from the real meat…

…which is, IMHO, “I don’t like the idea that you would be attracted to a man who has a personality like my brother.”

Ted D

Ana – question. What does a romance novel do for a woman that she cannot or does not have herself? Most guys I know watch porn when they don’t have a sex partner available, but when one is porn is the last thing on thier mind.

So, why do women who are in happy relationships read romance novels? Is it because they don’t feel like they are getting enough romance at home? If I can determine that the romance novel isn’t filling some need or role that I should be, perhaps I wouldn’t find them so intimidating. It’s the idea that my SO might want to read them because she feels she is lacking that bothers me.

Dogsquat

Hope said:

“My way is definitely riskier, but I’m a fan of taking risks for love. Makes for a better story.”
________________
When it works, it probably works really well.

Even if it doesn’t, it’s job security for me.

Depressed, lonely, alcoholics who smoke are a big part of my patient population. The women who fit that description single-handedly keep my toxicology knowledge up-to-date. They eat a bewildering variety of pills when attempting suicide.

Last year, I had one try and kill herself by swallowing a huge (like, 500 count) bottle of iron supplement tablets.

Really neat x-rays – you could see the individual pills moving through her digestive tract.

The men are kind of boring. They die of organ failure or self inflicted GSW.

Messy.

Dogsquat

Pennies, I’ll paint all your doorframes from now on.

You post here instead.

Deal?

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

pennies, yeah, it really does depend on the person on the receiving end. Though I think there aren’t a whole lot of NT women. They’re the rarest type.

Dogsquat, well, that’s certainly not what I would intend with the suggestion to take some risks. When I got rejected, I cried a while, then I moved on, because ultimately, if someone doesn’t love and accept all of me, then that’s not someone I should start a family with and be with for life.

I do feel bad for those who try to take their own lives. I’ve been suicidal before, and I know what it’s like. It’s not a good place to be. But my “risk-taking” was really about taking power back into my own hands. If someone cannot face rejection, then they should play it safe. You know the best way to play it safe? Not be in a relationship at all.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

@Ted
First I think many men still watch porn in a committed relationship, if not women wouldn’t be using it as an excuse for divorce in the grounds of cheating.
Second I think is a bit like masturbation, many women feel offended if they find out their husbands/SO are masturbating. But according to everyone is not to be taken personally sometimes men just want to clean out the pipes and want to do it themselves, not the whole act just get it done and move on.
I don’t think women that like Romance are filling some lack on their marriages (those women are usually the ones that seek out affairs with real men) but is mostly a form of entertainment. I mean do you read or watch movies to fill a need or just to be entertained for a while?
I think that is probably the part that doesn’t compute unless the woman is actually trying to use romance as substitute for her relationship chances are she is just having a good time entertaining herself, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and all that.

J

Hope,

I’m in favor of long, heartfelt talks early on, but I understand Dogsquat’s point too. I think JM might want to watch his frame during the discussion in that he shouldn’t present himself as a crazy who is going to make the current gf pay for the sins of the last one or of his mother. A sane girl will run from that. Other than that, if this a quality girl, this is the time for heartfelt talks. In fact, I’d say that the ability to accept him for who reveals himself to be in those talks is a qualifier for her (and vice-versa, if she opens up with somethiinhg sensitive).

Marie

Escoffier:
the ‘flakiness’ Hope described also applies to me. It also applies to about every woman I know who has a way of being ‘flaky’ (most women). I don’t think it counts for only 1% of flakiness. Guys are just not always aware they’re being dicks. Or they like to label a girl ‘flaky’ when she’s actually right.

It doesn’t have to be as bad as him seeing other girls. It can be smaller things: canceling appointments last minute, taking ages to respond to texts or calling back, squeezing me in on unfortunate hours etc. Sometimes these things are justified by typical male excuses such as long work hours, but if they happen repeatedly, I’m not okay with it. I’m not saying it makes me enraged, but it definitely makes me go cold. I know I’m the type of girl who can drive a man nuts (‘I was too busy at work to respond to her, and now she refuses to get back to me!’), but I’m (honestly) the sweetest when a guy makes me a priority
If he makes other plans when he wants to, I will too. If a girl gives the same treatment back to a guy as he has given her, it is common for him to feel she’s ‘difficult’. Because we’re often supposed to be just a little bit needy and overbearing.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Marie

but I’m (honestly) the sweetest when a guy makes me a priority

No one likes to be treated as an afterthought. Some women may get more interested if the guy pulls back, but I know a couple of very high SMV women who have bailed at the first sign of push pull. They’re tired of being gamed. Game is the norm now – I’m not saying most guys do it well, but most guys try it, and women are basically rolling their eyes. One said to me, “I’m not going to waste time on any guy who isn’t gung ho.” Of course, these women are more likely to attract cads, so that’s probably a factor.

Jesus Mahoney

Hey everyone. Thanks for all the advice.

Hope,

50 Shades was the least of my concerns. It was just something that we’d discussed here, that I’d looked into, and that she happened to be reading. What bothered me wasn’t that it was a romance novel–what bothered me was how disturbing Grey sounded as a character. Anyway, it’s a moot point: her evaluation of the novel pretty much mirrored Sue’s.

Re: my mom, it wasn’t so much the romance novels themselves as it was the denial and escape from reality they represented. Basically they served the same purpose as the alcohol: to forget life, life including the rest of the Mahoneys.

Anyway, I’m just commenting to let you all know what happened today.

I didn’t want to go into full confessional mode. Just writing about some of the stuff here makes me want to cry at times, so I thought if I just started blurting it all out I’d look like a mad man. So I told her I had a rough time as a kid and it makes it hard to open up and trust someone, but that I loved her and trusted her more than I’d ever trusted anyone, and while I didn’t think I could talk about all the things that had happened to me, I didn’t want to hold anything back. So I gave her one of my childhood journals and told her she’s welcome to read any of the others, which is something I’ve never let anyone do because they’re sort of a window into who I am on the inside.

So that went over well, and we had fun and I fell asleep since I hadn’t slept at all last night, and I woke up she’d already left for the yoga class she teaches, but she left me a really sweet letter that said she’d read the journal and that she loves me and a lot of other sappy shit I won’t torture you by saying.

And that’s for all the feedback and advice from everyone. And hi pennies, nice to meet you.

Deti,

We’ve only been a couple for 5 months, but I already know I’m going to marry her.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jesus

Ah, I’m proud of you. Sounds like you did exactly the right thing in exactly the right way. You’re living a wonderful love story – it’s more satisfying to hear than any fictional happy ending.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, I agree with that. It does need to be approached gently, carefully, without blaming the girl, and he needs to not come off as crazy.

And yeah, Dogsquat is also right in that if he can’t get a handle on this, it’s a bad thing.

A person has to get to the point of being truly content, take responsibility for his/her actions, and not rely on someone else for his/her emotional states.

But it’s also a feedback system. Having a wonderful special person in one’s life really helps one’s happiness level, emotional state, and overall life quality.

Don’t be totally reliant, but don’t be totally aloof. Finding that balance is the trick.

J

MIke C–Cool site! I think that the MB schema is more important than alpha/beta in undertanding relationships. There really isn’t much in A/B theory that applies to my relationship with my DH, but when I found info on relationships between INTP/INTJ a whole new world opened up for me.

Hope–Sorry for nitpicking you before, but as you can see I can’t help myself:

“Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. INTPs detect contradictions in statements no matter how distant in space or time the contradictory statements were produced. The intellectual scanning of INTPs has a principled quality; that is, INTPs search for whatever is relevant and pertinent to the issue at hand. Consequently, INTPs can concentrate better than any other type.

In all seriuousness, that sort of thing really does drive me nuts. DH tells me that no one has appointed me “the village corrector,” but I’m batshit with this stuff.

Sassy6519

@ Jesus Mahoney

*Slow claps*

Good luck man.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Jesus Mahoney, that’s great to hear. She sounds like a good woman, and you have handled this situation well.

It would also make sense that a writer would use written words to solve a problem!

J

JM #516

Sounds great! About 25 years ago, I had a similar conversation with a guy who had had a painful childhood …

J

Don’t be totally reliant, but don’t be totally aloof. Finding that balance is the trick.

Well, JM seems to have found the right balance. Good for him!

pennies

@dogsquat

Awws! I’m sorry I finished painting before I read your offer. It’s over now and I get to go antique desk shopping with my bf in a few. Much more fun!

I used to post on two threads on Salon when I was in grad school. In retrospect, it ate up a lot of time, so I try not to get involved in online discussions anymore, even when I have the occasional day off like today. It was cool, though. Like here, there were incredibly distinct personalities and there was a great narrative pull. It’s fun watching people’s lives unfold, listening to them speculate before taking a course of action, and hearing them report back.

(I am also too much of a F-m—st to stick around here. I’m one of those chickies who checked out this blog post-Atlantic Monthly. Shhhh…)

But I am rooting for JM and I am excited that people are using Myers Briggs and Helen Fisher’s theories to think about dating.

Hope, I’m not sure what the percentages are for women NFs — somewhere between 30-40%, I think… So that leaves a 60-70% chance that his GF is not an NF. An SFP or SFJ might have trouble following Jesus’ leaps of thought. His arguments might seem too abstract and conceptually overwhelming to an S and too emotionally overwhelming to an NT. I’ve learned over the years to use MB to appreciate that others are NOT like me and that I can’t expect everyone to process information and emotions the way I do. I think most people wind up with someone who has at least one letter different and my guess is that it has something to do with biodiversity and complimentary immune systems… You have a pretty unusual (and lucky) situation with your husband but I think most of us wind up with someone who doesn’t navigate the world exactly the same way. It’s important that people keep in mind that there’s no right or wrong in many situations — just a personality-driven difference in perspective.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

J, it’s all good. I can play a bit fast and loose with words sometimes, as can my husband. We’ve both said stuff like, “Well you know what I meant.” And with just each other, it’s true. Not always the case with other people. 😛

Pennies, based on some of JM’s past posts about long, drawn-out conversations about theories and reading together with his gf, plus her nurturing qualities, I guessed that chances were high she might be NF. I try to pay attention to such things, but I suppose that is still conjecture, and you might be right that if she were a different type, she might not respond well to it. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Can we convert you to a former-feminist? 😉

Sassy6519

I’ll go ahead and chime in on the porn discussion. I have a feeling that it will only paint me as an outlier even more. We’ll see.

I watch porn, typically lesbian porn. Despite the fact that I’m straight, I find it arousing to watch two women go at it. The sex seems more realistic than straight porn. It doesn’t focus on penetration as much, and I find the orgasms to be much more believable.

I don’t fantasize to be in any of the women’s positions. I just find that lesbian porn has a sensuality about it that is lacking in straight porn.

As far as romance novels go, it’s hit or miss for me. Sometimes I like to imagine myself as the heroine in the novels who ends up with the hunky guy. Other times I like to imagine my interpretation of the character ending up with the guy. One perspective is 1st person while the other is 3rd person.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

@Sassy
Is funny because I like straight porn except girl on girl action I’m not grossed out by it but it just boring I already have one of those I don’t need to see more I know how everything there works so there is not excitement I prefer penetration show but I don’t really like gay porn either it just seem…boring? Ugly? Lazy? Is pretty much “your turn” let’s go at it with straight porn there is a bit of delay surprises and I like that. It could be that I haven’t watched good gay porn but is still two dicks nothing interesting happens with both things looking the same I like my two complementary stuff I guess. Or I’m just heteronormative who knows :p

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Dog,

Best reverb snare ever = Radio edit of The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel.

Don’t know if it’s just an urban myth or not, but it’s said to have been achieved by dangling the drummer into a lift shaft.

Dogsquat

Byron, the drummer’s name is Hal Blaine. He was indeed playing in front of an open elevator shaft.

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Dawg,

Hal Blaine’s one of my favourite drummers, he played on all those old Phil Spector songs.. Then there’s Steve Gadd.. Jaki Liebezeit… And Ringo, of course.

Mahoney,

So glad you’re on an upturn, the indirect sharing (through your old journal) I think was an inspired leftfield move, you now feel healed, loved & accepted from it without directly splurging all that steam building up in your head.

No one seems to have mentioned yet how this is yet another male-female difference: the mainstream advice on all this stuff is essentially designed for – & popularly consumed by – women, but men are both built differently & face very different experiences of the world & its expectations of them. Hope’s advice is good for women & perhaps couples in very long-term, well-established relationships, but Dogsquat’s appeals for caution are sound & all men would be wise to at least factor them into the equation. Men reaching out when vulnerable much -perhaps most- of the time only makes them more vulnerable, & they run a very great & real risk of losing status in the eyes of the world & attractiveness in the eyes of their partner in a way women really just don’t ever experience to anything like the same degree.

This is something most women don’t like to recognize, so simply don’t, & after the fact often don’t even make the connection, they just think they lost attraction for the guy somehow, somewhere down the line, or the man they made open up to them suddenly seemed to be whining all the time.

I’m not there now, but I’ve had comparable experience to some of the headstates you’ve been describing, & I fully understand just how utterly fucking ghastly it can feel. On the brighter side, though, it does mean you are truly in love.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Men reaching out when vulnerable much -perhaps most- of the time only makes them more vulnerable, & they run a very great & real risk of losing status in the eyes of the world & attractiveness in the eyes of their partner in a way women really just don’t ever experience to anything like the same degree.

I didn’t want to mention this before Jesus had resolved the crisis, but I do feel strongly that this is true. For those of you who missed my infamous post on shit testing, I immediately lost attraction for a guy when I saw him cry. My response was to shit test like crazy, and he failed, so I dumped him. In my defense, all I can say is that I was 14 and I didn’t yet know him very well, so his weeping was something I didn’t know how to handle, though he was weeping for a very good reason – his father’s death the year before.

Currently can’t copy quotes on my phone but I wanted to weigh in on a few things. This has been such an interesting discussion!

Bryon @ 531 – I agree with everything you said, especially with regard to Hope’s advice vs Dogsquat’s. Both are good approaches depending on the stage of the relationship.

JM – I’ve been following this thread and it’s lovely to see you found a way to convey your feelings to your gf! Glad that it went well. It’s not easy opening up about these kinds of things.

Being vulnerable is always a risk, but in relationship it’s worth doing. I am a NF as well (INFP) and I wouldn’t want to be with someone I had to hold back part of myself to make it ‘work’.

And finally, to go on a 180 here…

Sassy, Anacaona – It’s so funny because my viewing habits differ from both of you! I’m a straight woman but I prefer watching gay male porn. I can’t really get into straight porn (I find it unrealistic and it centers far too much on penetration for my liking) and lesbian porn does nothing for me.

I’m definitely not envisioning myself getting in on the action, so for me seeing two guys getting it on is hot. Plus the actors in gay porn are generally way more attractive than the actors in straight porn, so it’s seeing twice as much of what I like

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Iggles

I’m definitely not envisioning myself getting in on the action, so for me seeing two guys getting it on is hot. Plus the actors in gay porn are generally way more attractive than the actors in straight porn, so it’s seeing twice as much of what I like

This is my experience as well. I am finding it fascinating to learn that some people observe – a form of voyeurism. Others put themselves into an active role – exhibitionism? It’s an interesting insight into human nature and female sexuality.

I recall not caring for the gay videos with penetration, but liking the masturbation and oral sex ones. That’s closer to a straight female’s appetites than straight porn filmed for men, IMO.

Just1X

I remember some study about women being turned on by seeing sex (even other species), where men needed to be able to see themselves doing it. Still looking for links, in the mean time, here are a few tid-bits I came across…

re: porn.. I’m also like Sassy, I prefer watching lesbian porn. It’s rare to find straight porn that doesn’t make me roll my eyes. I think it’s just that most American porn is horrible, really. I’ve seen gay porn a few times before and while I found it sexy, I don’t go seeking it out. I can’t handle watching that much penetration (I guess that applies to straight porn too).

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Just,

that might be something from ‘A Billion Wicked Thoughts’, I posted a related extract from it here:

I don’t think men necessarily need to see themselves having sex to get turned on – porn doesn’t feature the viewer of it, after all, & men are overwhelmingly the main enthusiasts of that revelry. But female sexuality is, as I said before, far more plastic than male. Women are a kind of “this+this+this, in the right situation, might make me say ‘why not?'”, whereas men are more of an on/off switch. As soon as we turn 13 we usually know exactly what we like & who we want to fuck & would like to do it as soon as possible, please, & until the day we die. If we’re straight, by God we know we’re straight, & if we’re gay, it’s just so apparent to us that men are where it’s at that we leap at the first chance & never look back.

Thinking about it, this might be a reason why that odd notion of gender/sexuality being a societal construct originated with feminism – which is, after all the only female political & philosophical movement in history. Perhaps it appears to make more sense from a female point of view.

Just1X

@Byron

it was something along those lines. I remember some femiknut claiming it* was a defence mechanism for a woman being raped; the ability to be easily turned on (and thus lubricated to prevent injury) even when they hated what was happening – menz fault, who’d a guessed? (she wrote a comment IIRC not the item). Having trouble finding a link though…

*’it’ was being turned on by watching dogs go at it – I shit you not (assuming that my memory isn’t having a senior moment). it’s that damn “frontal cortex over mammalian brain over reptilian brain ” hardware stack. What a shonky processing platform ‘we’ run on.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

I remember reading a sex scene between a stallion and a mare, and I found it arousing. The stallion appeared to be literally mad with desire – I think that’s what triggered it for me.

Just1X

Not the link I was looking for, but interesting and related-ish to the general conversation

if you search for women and dog sex, you do find a lot of eyebrow lifting articles…just sayin’. Still LMAO

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

if you search for women and dog sex, you do find a lot of eyebrow lifting articles…just sayin’. Still LMAO

I once went to a bachelorette party, and they played a film called “Hump Hound.” It was a German sheperd, a girl and a jar of mayo. It was truly revolting.

Just1X

@Susan,

FYI catyyophoex on Feminism’s End Game is selling drugs

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1X

Not sure how the spam filter missed that one, thanks.

SayWhaat

I recall not caring for the gay videos with penetration, but liking the masturbation and oral sex ones. That’s closer to a straight female’s appetites than straight porn filmed for men, IMO.

When I watch straight porn I start laughing halfway through because of the sheer ridiculousness, and then I get bored and find something new. I haven’t seen oral sex gay porn yet, but I confess that I kind of like masturbation videos. One time when I was in high school, I came across a video of two women who were wrestling while covered with oil. There was no sex involved, it was just two women wrestling and slipping everywhere, but I was so aroused it hurt. Fascinating to think that these play into straight female sexual appetites more so than straight porn.

(I also read a lot of Harry Potter porn fan-fiction, hahaha.)

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

I can’t handle watching that much penetration (I guess that applies to straight porn too).
Wow it seems like that I’m only female fan of penetration in the board. I don’t know for me oral sex is akin to touch a warm up, never being satisfied just by it and I actually don’t mind skipping it to the penetration part. Is because I’m new? Maybe when I have the children I’ll change…

it was something along those lines. I remember some femiknut claiming it* was a defence mechanism for a woman being raped; the ability to be easily turned on (and thus lubricated to prevent injury) even when they hated what was happening – menz fault, who’d a guessed? (she wrote a comment IIRC not the item). Having trouble finding a link though…

My guess is also a way to keep the woman alive in the times when an invader would get your tribe and kill your men an uncooperative woman might be easier to get kill a woman that even if showing resistance cooperates might had been taken back as spoil of war and live enough to pass of their genes. A bit like cuckold fantasy for men were they impulse to compete with another man’s sperm make him hot and bothered even if he hates seeing her woman get it on with another man. We really had a very fucked up origin as species no wonder is so easy for us to get neurotic and crazy we are fighting a lot of vestigial crap with rationality and civilization, YMMV.

*’it’ was being turned on by watching dogs go at it – I shit you not (assuming that my memory isn’t having a senior moment). it’s that damn “frontal cortex over mammalian brain over reptilian brain ” hardware stack. What a shonky processing platform ‘we’ run on.

Heh that reminds me a movie I saw about Adam and Eve in which after she ates the forbidden fruit she looks at the lions doing it and it kind of gets her an idea and she goes to seduce Adam I saw this movie twice before puberty and after it and the first time I considered the scene weird after it…well I got it.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

(I also read a lot of Harry Potter porn fan-fiction, hahaha.)

Ewwww. I barely can read fan fiction I stumble a description of one of those and I think that is why I stopped caring for the HP fan community is like reading about your parents doing it….ewwwww. :p

Just1X

@susan #various

no probs on the drugs.

I guess the discovery thing was right for me, I need to feel that it could be me, or some such. But generally speaking, if it’s consensual then whatever floats your boat. I don’t judge it, it just doesn’t do it for me. Don’t want to see man on man (don’t care what they do, just don’t care to see it), woman on woman maaaaybeeee if they’re both good looking girly girls (might just be because I’d like a ‘walk-In’ part. Video girl on girl seems like a tease perhaps? Flirting is irritating to me as well; “don’t mess me around? Are we on, or not?” kind of attitude

Iggles

Susan – When I’m watching something it’s definitely more of a voyuer point of view. I don’t/can’t subsitute myself into the scene, though with tv and movies I do sympathize with the characters.

If I’m reading erotica then in my mind’s eye I can insert myself into a more active role. However, even though I might have a first person point of view but I’m still not experiencing it as myself. This distinction is still there, so in a sense I have both an active role in the story AND a voyuer’s point of view all at once!

SayWhaat – I think it makes sense you would enjoy watching the video of two women wrestling. It’s more representative of “foreplay”. Most women (70%) don’t climax solely from penetration alone. For women foreplay (kissing, rubbing, touching, fingering, oral) plays a big role in getting off, so it makes sense you would be more aroused viewing that than watching a dude pump away in straight porn. Ironic as it may sound, I agree that it does play more into straight females’ sexual appetite!

Iggles

Anacaona – That’s a good thing IMO! I’d love to be part of the 30%, but I also needed direct stimulation to get off (oy, this is definitely venturing toward TMI territory!).

It’s so interesting to hear everyone’s differences on this thread. Like purplesneakers, I love fan fiction! Have written a bunch too, but not for the Harry Potter fandom.

Barb J

Oh, I like this! I have a body ratio of .76, trying to get down to .75
And I really have to get that trait sarcasm off my list though.

http://www.watchitonline.tv/olympics James Martin

Hi Susan!

I think, in loving a person what goals you set is not actually what’s gonna happen or maybe its the opposite of that. What I mean if you set standard of the person you like, you always end up having someone who actually the exact opposite or maybe not all correlated with your standard. I always remember the saying ” The person you love is always the exemptions of your standard.” I sometimes realize that this saying is infact true. If you truly love that person, you have full hope to change her and vice versa. What matters most is that you enjoy your company and you both respect each others and the rest will follow.

Dogsquat

Byron said:

“Men reaching out when vulnerable much -perhaps most- of the time only makes them more vulnerable, & they run a very great & real risk of losing status in the eyes of the world & attractiveness in the eyes of their partner in a way women really just don’t ever experience to anything like the same degree.”
______________________

Gentlemen, read this and know it – hear it and believe. Some of you ladies are not going to like this – but I….AM….CORRECT. BYRON….IS….ALSO….CORRECT. Before immediately dismissing what I’m saying, ask yourself this:

“Who’s dated more women? Me or Dogsquat?”

I’ll need (at least R, preferably X rated) pictures of you with each girl for proof if you wanna play the numbers game.

There are some subtleties though:

It’s okay to get help executing a plan. “Hey, my house burned down. Please bring me 27 cubic yards of concrete and some window treatments. I’ll be at Home Depot buying 2 x 4’s.”

You might actually gain status with this one, particularly if you’re demolishing an obstacle in your (collective, meaning you and her) future. It’s also possibly beneficial if you’re exhibiting a manly skill – “Honey, please bring me the carbonic defibrillator. I’m almost done fixing this flux capacitor, and I need a hand with the reactor.”

You can also explain about emotional baggage (everybody’s got some) and how it affects you – but be brief, clinical, and use the conversation to set boundaries. Do this one time, and one time only. You DO NOT want to be whining about past girlfriends or the current one will take a giant metaphoric dump on your forehead.

Now, you absolutely can ask for (and sometimes receive) help with intractable emotional issues from a woman who loves your goofy ass. Hell, sometimes it’s necessary. A Weapons-Grade PTSD-having-guy-who-is-typing-this-now has done it, and benefited greatly from the love of a (very) few amazing women.

You’d better be paying close attention to how much you’re doing it, though. That help/reassurance/hand-holding/whatever is not without cost.

You come blubbering up to her with tears and snot running down her face because mommy and daddy didn’t love you enough – that shit’s like maxing out your Visa card. Enjoy it, make use of it, feel better – but start paying the balance down with man-currency. Post haste.

Men are not Women. Your girlfriend is not your therapist.

purplesneakers

Ana-

Wow it seems like that I’m only female fan of penetration in the board. I don’t know for me oral sex is akin to touch a warm up, never being satisfied just by it and I actually don’t mind skipping it to the penetration part. Is because I’m new? Maybe when I have the children I’ll change…

Well, I’m “newer” than you are, still holding my v-card, lol. Not that I don’t like watching penetration in itself; it’s just that most of the videos of it are either just pumping in and out (which can be sexy provided the right context) or have the girl screaming ridiculously and faking orgasms (or the guys are just too unattractive to even take seriously, or even the women are incredibly fake-looking). They also pretty much all pander to the camera, which only exaggerates the fakeness of it. imo there’s not much real passion involved… just fake fake FAKE. It’s like it’s just a huge erect penis that exists in a void and then along comes some screaming silicone-breasted blonde-extensioned woman who just can’t help herself while making ridiculous faces at the camera. For example I would love to find some bdsm-themed videos that actually have some sort of psychological element to them.. but they’re all just anal torture. *shudder*

purplesneakers

Byron-

Thinking about it, this might be a reason why that odd notion of gender/sexuality being a societal construct originated with feminism – which is, after all the only female political & philosophical movement in history. Perhaps it appears to make more sense from a female point of view.

The irony is, feminists seem to *want* female sexuality to work the same way male sexuality does. They want it to be the case that women care about good looks as much as men do, and this idea has become mainstream, with girls thinking that good looks mean anything. Men have also internalized this and think that women care about looks as much as they do. Because of the larger societal refusal to acknowledge that men and women work differently and think differently, we get “world’s sexiest man alive” propaganda and awkward bacholerette parties.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Well, I’m “newer” than you are, still holding my v-card, lol. Not that I don’t like watching penetration in itself; it’s just that most of the videos of it are either just pumping in and out (which can be sexy provided the right context) or have the girl screaming ridiculously and faking orgasms (or the guys are just too unattractive to even take seriously, or even the women are incredibly fake-looking). They also pretty much all pander to the camera, which only exaggerates the fakeness of it. imo there’s not much real passion involved… just fake fake FAKE. It’s like it’s just a huge erect penis that exists in a void and then along comes some screaming silicone-breasted blonde-extensioned woman who just can’t help herself while making ridiculous faces at the camera.

I don’t disagree with any of that logically I know is fake and I know the yelling is just “acting” and the “acting” is cringe worth it, the scenarios are implausible… it still turns me on more than the alternative I’m weird like that it looks like *shrugs*

OffTheCuff

Ana: “Wow it seems like that I’m only female fan of penetration in the board. I don’t know for me oral sex is akin to touch a warm up, never being satisfied just by it and I actually don’t mind skipping it to the penetration part. Is because I’m new? Maybe when I have the children I’ll change…”

No, not just you. That’s a sign of a very high-functioning relationship IMO. Mrs. Cuff is the same (I post this, because I know she has already done so on MMSL). Three children later and things are no different, other than her sex drive is… higher.

Stargate Girl

I’ll take penetration over oral action any day. Nice prelude to the “get down make love” part of things, but just a prelude….

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Woohooo! I’m not alone. 😀
I do wonder if men think blowjob is sex or if they do think of it as prelude of sex too? Guys? Not with a lot of details please.

OffTheCuff

Heh, like I said!

I suspect the women who strongly prefer oral, are really missing out on the whole-body orgasm thing. Which is low sexual function, just as a man who only lasts a few minutes, instead of as long as he wants.

OffTheCuff

Plain Jane trolling again.

I know more than a couple bisexual/lesbian women, who know how to give oral better than any man can. If they have experienced both, they prefer the g-spot vaginal orgasm over oral, and think of oral as an appetizer. If they haven’t, then they think oral is better.

We’ve even coached each other a bit on techniques. Bi women are great!

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

I suspect the women who strongly prefer oral, are really missing out on the whole-body orgasm thing. Which is low sexual function, just as a man who only lasts a few minutes, instead of as long as he wants.

Interesting do you know any links about this high and low sexual function? First time I hear this terms.

Ted D

Once upon a time I used to like to receive oral all the way to finish. I still like it, but generally I don’t make it too far along before I want to “get on” and drill away. It isn’t lack of skill on my SO’s part so much as I get too riled up and can’t resist having my way with her.

The sessions where oral is part of the festivities for either or both of us also tend to be the really physical/passionate ones as well. For me it really adds a bit of urgency of sorts. Those end with heavy breathing, sweating, and either a deep sleep or a shower. 😉

Just1X

@Lip person

“The USA starting practicing circumcision back in the mid/late-ish 1800s as a method of punishing boys for masturbating.”

The USA seems to be different from the rest of the anglosphere when it comes to religion in general and circumcision in particular. Don’t know why but circumcision really seems a lot more common ‘over there’. I watched one of the episodes of the cosmetic surgery drama series (can’t remember the name), the one where his son attempts to circumsize himself because girls think that an uncut one is ‘ugly’. un-fucking-believable. The thing wasn’t designed for its aesthetics (clearly), that’s why it’s known as looking like the last turkey in the shop (the one nobody wanted to buy). Circumcision for improved looks? You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. It is what it is. For similar reasons women should not bother with labiaplasty (IMHO) (unless it’s really odd looking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labiaplasty)

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Lip Person, Just,

“The USA starting practicing circumcision back in the mid/late-ish 1800s as a method of punishing boys for masturbating. ”

but you can do your own research on it – look up Harvey Kellogg (the cornflake guy!), a complete quack whose vicious ideas took root in American childrearing because of Victorian prudery & fear of sexuality.

Circumcision of either sex is genital mutilation, carried out for the same reason, & America is by far the greatest proponent of it in the world. It’s a quite astonishing double-standard that I guess just keeps on rolling on without criticism because the U.S is still top dog & no-one cares about little boys.

The ‘best’ bit was some of the african guys looking forward to not having to use a condom because once circumcised they were ‘immune’ to aids. how many men AND women have to die over this little atrocity? the surgery is misandric, but the fallout will cover both sexes…about six feet deep.

Just1X

@Byron

didn’t know that you were English too. Howdy pardner as we English tend to say…

“Intact guys have more sexual sensation and sensitivity. The foreskin contains 67% of the total amount of nerve endings in the penis. The glans of the penis was designed to be an internal organ, covered and protected by the foreskin when flaccid. If it’s permanently exposed (as in a circumcised penis) it develops layers of keratin, dries-out, and loses a significant amount of sensitivity.

Also the foreskin has a unique gliding action and acts as a natural lubricant. During sex or masturbation, the foreskin glides up and down, placing additional stimulation on other parts of the penis. Circumcised men don’t have this.”

Again, this is very true. I keep on trying to find a way to explain to circumcised men – & women, of course – a way for them to understand & imagine how an intact penis is actually supposed to feel like & work. The best I’ve come up with so far is this: The Eyelid.

If you feel the way the eyelid effortlessly slides over, moistens & protects the eyeball – & also how sensitive that eyeball itself is, not able to be exposed to the air for long without drying out & toughening up, or even be directly touched without at least feeling uncomfortable – well, that’s exactly how an intact penis feels & what the foreskin is for. The foreskin isn’t some extraneous piece of skin, it has a purpose, & that purpose is directly analogous to, as I’ve already said, that other intrinsic part of an intact body, the eyelid.

‘The ‘best’ bit was some of the african guys looking forward to not having to use a condom because once circumcised they were ‘immune’ to aids. how many men AND women have to die over this little atrocity? the surgery is misandric, but the fallout will cover both sexes…about six feet deep.’

Yep, as I said in that piece, the idea that circumcision prevents HIV infection (??!!!??!!) is immediately disproved just by looking at America itself: It has both by far the highest rate of circumcision in the developed world, & also, by some margin, the highest rates of HIV infection of the developed world. It’s where AIDS began, for God’s sake! Utter insanity.

Just1X

Surfing in Grimsby, wow, living the dream!

Then perhaps hang gliding the crags around Cambridge?

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Dawg,

“Men are not Women. Your girlfriend is not your therapist.”

It’s a hard pill to swallow but so true. Men should have that on a business card in their wallets, just to pull out & remind themselves periodically.

Because women have a hardwired to splurge & share when they are faced with a problem or feeling emotional (see Brizendine’s ‘The Female Brain’), & feel better after doing so, most of them project that onto men, which on one level is quite beautiful, as it comes out of empathy, & the wanting to help. But on another level it can feel selfish & manipulative, trying to get men to behave more like women just so that the terrain will feel more comfortable & familiar for them.

I’ve been meaning to write something recently about that old late-80’s Madonna song ‘Express Yourself”, where she tells all the girls they must ‘make’ their boyfriends ‘express how he feels’ because ‘only then you’ll know his love is real’. Something about that always stuck in my craw, somehow – just the insisting on applying female needs & behaviours somewhere they didn’t belong, & the lack of any moral thought going into ‘making’ a person behave in ways they clearly didn’t feel comfortable with, all on the whims of a woman who would probably dump the poor schmoe six months later for going on about his feeelings so much… “I don’t know what happened to him – I liked him much better when he was the strong, silent type…”

As JM demonstrated, you can share & bond & open up your heart & grow without dragging the one you love along to couples therapy. You can show your love without appearing on Oprah. Quietly learning the ins & outs of your partner by simply living & working alongside them over the years is a far deeper & more real bond than that created by demanding they hold the talking stick. If you look at most old couples that are still together at 80, that’s precisely how & why they got there.

Just1X

I semi caught the results of some (perhaps dubious) research on tv (that beacon of truth) where they found some slight reduction in infection amoung the circumcised. Now what that research was worth? I don’t know. not my field, NO interest in getting chopped.

The theory given was interesting (NOT necessarily the same thing as being true). The inside of the foreskin took in small doses of infections during sex. This small dose caused the immunity system to start up on the infection early, before a serious infection level was reached. So men (and their subsequent partners) were better protected against developing serious infections. Kind of makes sense in an evolutionary way (still doesn’t make it true). The trouble with AIDS, according to the theory, was that the small dose wasn’t small enough to aid fighting it off – you just get infected.

If you’re looking for pseudo-science to ‘justify’ mutilating men, you’ll take any old cobbler’s. So, the UN and WHO did. Hey cheap foreskins to make women’s beauty products – oh yes they do!

Once again, this is NOT my area of expertise, I’m just passing on something interesting that I heard. Perhaps as reliable as ‘bloke down the pub told me’, if you’re lucky.

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

“The inside of the foreskin took in small doses of infections during sex… The trouble with AIDS, according to the theory, was that the small dose wasn’t small enough to aid fighting it off – you just get infected. ”

Yes, even if there happens to be a tiny grain of truth to this, & this is the case, you still have to wear a condom to prevent HIV transmission, so you’ve genitally mutilated 28 million African men for nothing but colonial arrogance & the continued imposition of twisted victorian sexual values.

The marginal difference shown in the small number of controversial – & ideologically biased – studies done in Africa probably has much more to do with the religious lifestyle lived by circumcised muslims, rather than any magical protection spell bestowed through the cutting off of body parts: a guy who’s bowing down to mecca 5 times a day is, statistically speaking, probably less likely than the average joe to be hitting the whorehouses every night.

Also, adult men who get circumcised are obviously going to be out of action a little bit so have simply less opportunity for sex than uncircumcised men during the course of that year. This probably shows up as a marginal difference when played out in large numbers.

I think women who only can get off on oral/vibrators, prefer it over of vaginal, or never have vaginal orgasms, are low-functioning in the sense of a male PE. They are technically orgasming, but really not experiencing the whole thing. My 2 cents.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I took Easter off, so am late responding here, but there is one comment I feel I must address, in the interest of providing accurate information to women, especially young women, who may be reading.

I think women who only can get off on oral/vibrators, prefer it over of vaginal, or never have vaginal orgasms, are low-functioning in the sense of a male PE. They are technically orgasming, but really not experiencing the whole thing.

I find statements like this extremely problematic, as they tend to focus on specific kinds of female sexual response as an achievement. This views arousal and orgasm as comprising a hierarchy of sexual experiences, a progressive quest to reach new levels of accomplishment, with points awarded for new heights attained. In my experience, men tend to make statements like this more frequently than women do. I suspect it is because they view certain sexual responses as indicative of their own virility and sexual skill.

Female physiology varies widely, and in determining the quality of a woman’s sexual experiences, I believe there is only one relevant question:

1. Is the woman satisfied with the nature of her own sexual response?

I find any notion that the man should be satisfied with the woman’s sexual response deeply troubling. If a man is not aroused by his partner’s responses, then that couple is not sexually compatible. Of course, men want women to participate in an uninhibited way – for many women that letting go requires emotional intimacy. But what I’m addressing here is physiology, not psychology.

The Female Sexual Function Index, referenced here, is an instrument designed for research by AGBayer in search of a drug to alleviate pain or discomfort during intercourse. There are two aspects of the questionnaire that are worth highlighting, IMO. The first is that it is heavily focused on ascertaining the frequency of sex, with less frequent sex presumed to indicate avoidance of sex due to discomfort. That is not a valid metric for the general female population. Obviously, for the HUS audience, sexual functioning is not indicated by sexual frequency, as many women are not in committed relationships, and casual sex yields a very low rate of female orgasm (19%).

The second is that the questionnaire focuses on satisfaction. The more satisfied a woman is with her sex life, the higher the functioning score. Therefore, a woman with a low sex drive who has occasional orgasms that thrill her will get as high a score as a woman with a high sex drive who has whole body orgasms daily. And both would get a much higher functioning score than Bella, who has Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome, orgasming 100 times per day.

Re different kinds of female orgasms:

Orgasms may occur from a variety of stimuli. Bella, above, comes when she smells cologne or finds herself in darkness. Women may have orgasms by having their breasts touched, anus penetrated, vaginal penetration of various kinds, and of course clitoral stimulation. These orgasms are named according to the site of stimulation: vaginal orgasm, anal orgasm, clitoral orgasm, etc. However, the climax itself occurs in the clitoris. There is no such thing as breasts having an orgasm. Just as there is no such thing as a “testicle orgasm.” The clitoris is similar to the penis in function.

It should be noted that the likelihood of achieving orgasm via penile penetration alone relies on physiology. The ideal distance between the vagina and clitoris is said to be the width of a woman’s thumb. That’s close enough that every thrust tugs on the clitoris. Conversely, a distance of greater than 1 and 1/8 in. is said to make orgasm impossible via thrusting alone. Estimates of women in this latter group range from 70-80%. Not surprisingly, short women are more likely to enjoy a short distance between vagina and clitoris. Many women find that they can orgasm during penetrative sex by pressing their clitoris against the public bone of the male, by employing different positions and angle of entry.

Re whole body orgasms:

There is a tradition of expanded orgasm in writings of sacred and tantric sex. The term was popularized by Dr. Patricia Taylor in her 2000 doctoral thesis. After earning her MBA, Taylor was working as a money manager on Wall St.

“Her life changed dramatically after a spiritual encounter that awakened her Kundalini in 1985, and initiated her into the lineage of Kashmiri Shaivism. Three years later Patricia had her first expanded orgasm and began a journey to study how to create these experiences, and share with others the potential they hold and power they unleash. She received her PhD in Transpersonal Psychology in 2000. Her university, the International University of Professional Studies, is an unaccredited distance education school.” Wikipedia

“Distinguishing features of expanded orgasm are energetic sensations and contractions all over the body, especially in the abdomen, inner thighs, hands, feet, and genitals. Dr. Taylor describes reports of practitioners going into various altered states of consciousness, bringing about deep emotional release and rejuvenation, profound spiritual experiences, having awarenesses not normally perceived in regular orgasm, and perceiving energy expanding beyond the limits of their bodies.

Participants in Dr. Taylor’s study entered into expanded orgasmic states using various sexual practices or modalities. The top four modalities were; manual self-stimulation (60%), manual stimulation from a partner (35%), intercourse (30%) and oral stimulation (15%).”

Clearly, masturbation is the most frequent means of experiencing expanded orgasm, either alone or with a partner.

Finally, I feel compelled to offer some information about female ejaculation, as it is common to witness high fiving among males re this practice. In her new book What’s Up Down There?, gynecologist Lissa Rankin explains the most current findings:

￼”Studies of female ejaculate find that the fluid released contains glucose, fructose, prostatic acid phosphatase, and PSA, substances not normally present in urine. What confuses matters is that some women are indeed, incontinent, but this is distinctly different from female ejaculation. The fluid resembles fat-free milk, tastes sweet, and rarely exceeds a teaspoon in volume. If you’re soaking the bed during orgasm, it’s probably urine.”

I highlight this because videos that show women gushing large amounts of liquid, especially instructional videos, are entirely misleading. I suspect that many of the females are pumped full of water before filming. If there’s any kind of product recommended or linked by the video, you can assume it’s 100% fake. A woman may be ejaculating a teaspoon of ejaculate and never know it, and her partner may believe he “failed” her. Or if she did soak the sheets, he probably just succeeded in getting the woman to empty her bladder. There is nothing wrong with this, of course, and parties may find it enjoyable.

I hope this clears up any myths about female sexuality. I encourage women to resist any pressure to “achieve” or “perform” certain kinds of orgasms to please or gratify a lover. If a man is able to rock a woman’s world, however she defines that, I don’t believe it is appropriate for him to ask for, expect, or demand more with regard to her pleasure response. Obviously, his own orgasms are a different matter.

Sassy6519

I suspect the women who strongly prefer oral, are really missing out on the whole-body orgasm thing. Which is low sexual function, just as a man who only lasts a few minutes, instead of as long as he wants.

I think women who only can get off on oral/vibrators, prefer it over of vaginal, or never have vaginal orgasms, are low-functioning in the sense of a male PE. They are technically orgasming, but really not experiencing the whole thing. My 2 cents.

Oh boy.

How did the conversation turn from what women prefer to watch in porn to what they prefer in real life? When did the switch occur?

Anyway, to the women who prefer to watch penetrative sex porn, kudos to you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

To the women who prefer to watch non penetrative sex porn, kudos to you as well. There is also nothing wrong with it.

I’m a part of the latter group. I have experienced both types of orgasms (clitoral and vaginal). I still prefer to watch lesbian porn or non penetrative sex porn. Why? It’s more believable than penetrative porn. The orgasms seem less fake, and the acting is less cringe worthy.

I think it’s funny how the conversation has switched over to a man telling women that they are low functioning sexually if they have only ever experienced clitoral orgasms or prefer them. Seriously, wtf? I’m not even a part of that group, yet the presumptuousness about it still irks me.

I see this conversation going down faster than a lead weight in water.

OffTheCuff

Simple, sassy. Ana said she prefers penetration, my wife agreed, and then Troll Bait came in as usual to derail it.

Sassy6519

@ OffTheCuff

There was a bit of derailment. I’ll agree to that.

What I’m curious about is why you claim that women who only have clitoral orgasms or prefer them are low functioning sexually. That seems like a mighty big claim for a man to make.

OffTheCuff

I think it’s lower functioning, not low. And it’s my opinion about what happens in my bed, what I’ve seen with my own eyes, and what I accept. Nothing to do with you.

Lots of women are low-function since they cannot orgasm at at all, or cannot experience the various types (clitoral, vaginal, and breast). Those that can experience all three regularly are higher functioning than those who can’t.

After all, if some man said he could last up to 5 minutes in bed and had awesome orgasms, women would have no problem thinking HE is low functioning.

Sassy6519

Lots of women are low-function since they cannot orgasm at at all, or cannot experience the various types (clitoral, vaginal, and breast). Those that can experience all three regularly are higher functioning than those who can’t.

After all, if some man said he could last up to 5 minutes in bed and had awesome orgasms, women would have no problem thinking HE is low functioning.

It’s this idea of functionality that I’m a bit confused with. I just don’t see how it can be related to the types of orgasms women have.

Also, I dated a guy for some time who couldn’t stay erect for more than 3 minutes. I considered he and I to be sexually incompatible. He wasn’t low functioning. He is just better suited for a woman with different preferences than mine.

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

“Lots of women are low-function since they cannot orgasm at at all, or cannot experience the various types (clitoral, vaginal, and breast). Those that can experience all three regularly are higher functioning than those who can’t.”

That’s actually not a bad description – I would never say a woman who prefers her clit being stimulated rather than penetration is of a lower order than someone else, but there’s definitely a greater spectrum of female desire & responsiveness in women than in men, & it probably is correct to say a woman who finds it extremely hard to come, either alone or with a partner, or isn’t even bothered about coming at all, is low-functioning, they’re certainly burning at a lower flame.

Stargate Girl

Please do not mistake my preference for penetration as meaning I do not derive pleasure from oral. I most certainly do. Hubby can send me skyrocketing, and once upon a time my gf did as well. but as great as that felt, I still NEED/WANT the penetration. I don’t really feel my most satisfied sans p-v action. My best whole body orgasms actually occur during p-v. That’s not the case for everyone. Some people get it from g-spot stim, others from oral or Bobbs. hey! Whatever works!

Lip-Person said:”Or their partners are low functioning for not being able to get them off”

Ehhhh……. disagree. Ultimately whether we cum or not is our own responsibility. It’s your orgasm, own it! If for some reason the one on one didn’t get me there you can be damn sure my fingers or toys are going to do the walking if needed. It’s a disservice to oneself to assume and expect your partner is gonna get you there. It’s beyond delightful when they do, but if your brain isn’t into it and your body isn’t feeling responsive, well, that’s not the partners fault.

OffTheCuff

Sass: “He wasn’t low functioning. He is just better suited for a woman with different preferences than mine.”

You can call it whatever you want, but I disagree completely. That’s low-function if not outright dysfunction. Something’s either messed up in his plumbing, or in his brain. If a person cannot walk a mile before his heart gives out, we don’t call it a “different preference”, we should call it for what it is.

Stargate Girl

“A partner might assume that a person is “low functioning” sexually if he or she doesn’t orgasm with them. Meanwhile he or she may orgasm just fine on their own or with someone else. At the point the skills or lack thereof need to be examined and some techniques taught.”

Maybe it’s just themselves. Skills do not make the man/woman. they are but a fraction. Doesn’t matter how skilled a lover one has, if one isn’t into the lover or the action.

“This is something entirely different than taking responsiblity for your own orgasm through masturbation, which is a given for most humans being that we twiddle with our twaddles from infancy onward.”

Being responsible for ones own orgasm doesn’t mean masturbation. The biggest sexual organ wwe have is our brain. If it’s not in on the action, highly doubtful orgasm will happen.

Kurt

I do agree that men prefer younger women, although the 2.5 year difference is probably preferred by men in their early 20s. As men age, they tend to prefer women who are more than 2.5 years younger than them. For example, a man close to 40 would likely prefer a woman who is at least 5 years younger, especially if he wants to start a family.

I personally fail to understand why anyone would want a woman who argues and complains a lot – that is very unattractive to me. A woman with an attitude and who craves drama is a woman I don’t want.

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Is lip person/Service plain jane?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Is lip person/Service plain jane?

I think so. I’ve deleted her comments, albeit belatedly. Unfortunately, I have no better method. At times when I’m absent for a while, I encourage everyone to just ignore her. She’s been on HUS about four times in the last week under different names, with different IPs. The best we can do is withhold positive reinforcement.

Stargate Girl

“Is lip person/Service plain jane?”

Don’t know for sure, but that would be what OTC has told me.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Plain Jane alert! I remember she having this very same stupid argument a couple of times. So ignore her and let’s wait till Susan can ban her…again.

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Aw, Jesus Christ, can’t we at least make her wear a bell or something?

Watch the pattern: Brand new handle, always entering at end of a long tangential thread with a strong contrarian stance, a solid understanding of all topics and jargon despite being “new”, sex-poz boilerplate feminist, always no introduction or hesitation.

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

Well-caught.

Just1X

@Kurt

“I personally fail to understand why anyone would want a woman who argues and complains a lot – that is very unattractive to me. A woman with an attitude and who craves drama is a woman I don’t want.”

Well, the problem is that they can change *shudder* after you marry them, in fact that’s the horror of my ex-marriage; I woke up one morning married to my mother-in-law’s younger clone…the horror, the horror

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Brand new handle,/i>

I will say that the new handle is usually related to a new discussion we have had. She had womb choice when were talking about female cheating for example, I think Plain Jane was something she picked when Susan was talking about female betas. So she is always stalking us and picks her handles accordingly.

Stargate Girl

well, ya know…. perhaps lipservice is an apt descriptor……. 😀

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

perhaps lipservice is an apt descriptor

heh true but I’m also sure she picked up because we were talking about oral sex.

Kurt

@Just1X

“Well, the problem is that they can change *shudder* after you marry them, in fact that’s the horror of my ex-marriage; I woke up one morning married to my mother-in-law’s younger clone…the horror, the horror”

That is a good point. Some women are good at hiding their true intentions and feelings – hopefully I don’t get stuck with a psycho like that.

Ramble

…he probably just succeeded in getting the woman to empty her bladder. There is nothing wrong with this, of course

Come on, Susan. Would we really have put a noose around your neck had you said, “Urinating in bed, and on your partner, is kind of disgusting.”

Just because something is natural, or normal, does not mean that it is not disgusting.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

Come on, Susan. Would we really have put a noose around your neck had you said, “Urinating in bed, and on your partner, is kind of disgusting.”

Just because something is natural, or normal, does not mean that it is not disgusting.

Eh, disgusting is in the eye of the beholder – again, this is a compatibility issue. I certainly don’t think it’s disgusting if an orgasm causes a woman to release her bladder. It appears to be very common. I’ll agree that it’s generally not the objective. My point is that it’s not something people should be crowing about as an achievement. Let’s stop awarding Female Ejaculation Badges. Especially by men!

Herb

@Byron

Aw, Jesus Christ, can’t we at least make her wear a bell or something?

I got a new slave bells anklet this weekend, but if it would help I’ll see if I can transfer it to her on her next sighting

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Susan, thanks for that post. I just want to say that sometimes, I’m so grateful to be married to my husband, who doesn’t judge me based on porn metrics.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Hope

I just want to say that sometimes, I’m so grateful to be married to my husband, who doesn’t judge me based on porn metrics.

Men have always been invested in the female sexual response – it was obviously a centerpiece of Freud’s theories. Much of it has centered on criticism, e.g. frigidity. Many angry accusations of frigidity have been leveled at women who are very capable of orgasms. It is not a woman’s duty to produce an orgasm of her own to please her partner. The female orgasm is less reliable than the male’s, and male expectations around a woman’s ability to “perform an orgasm” are not only unfair, they probably significantly reduce the chances of an orgasm occurring! This is why women fake orgasm.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

“I certainly don’t think it’s disgusting if an orgasm causes a woman to release her bladder. It appears to be very common. ”

Wait, so is this saying that any woman that appears to be squirting is actually urinating?!

That means I’ve been pissed on, over the course of a four year relationship God knows how many times. And here I always thought I was just really knocking it out of the park with her…

I wonder how her next BF took it? I always promoted it when it happened. I certainly didn’t want her to hold back of she was having a big O. I just always kept a few towels in the bedroom to prevent a wet mattress.

So, can I check “yellow shower” off on my weird sex stuff I’ve done list, or do I actually need to shower in it to count? 😛

Herb

@Ted D

Female ejaculation is not necessarily urine.

Nor would I count it as a golden shower, as that is an intentional process. It’s not where you do it but the intent and atomicity of the act.

Ramble

Eh, disgusting is in the eye of the beholder – again, this is a compatibility issue.

Eh, there is probably at least one person, out of the 7+ Billion of us, that does not find a Cleveland Steamer to be disgusting, but, he would be wrong. Of course, that is just my opinion.

I knew a neighbor that was, apparently, into Golden Showers. She was weird, and it is disgusting. Again, just this man’s opinion.

J

Wait, so is this saying that any woman that appears to be squirting is actually urinating?!

Smell it. If it smells like pee, it is.

Herb

@J

Smell it. If it smells like pee, it is.

And if it doesn’t, it isn’t.

Also, the feel is often thicker and “creamier” than urine.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Smell it. If it smells like pee, it is.

And if it doesn’t, it isn’t.

Also, the feel is often thicker and “creamier” than urine.

No, this is incorrect. The female ejaculate is one teaspoon of liquid, thin like skim milk. On a cotton sheet, it will create a wet spot about 3-4 inches in diameter.

Any liquid in addition to that is urine. The liquid is expelled through the urethra. The two possibilities are urine from the bladder and a different liquid ejaculate from the paraurethral glands, further down the urethra.

Any gushing or squirting cannot be ejaculate. Of course, the liquid may be a combination of the two, which might explain a different taste. In any case, urine can range from clear to yellow, and can vary in smell and taste quite a bit. (Asparagus, anyone?) The urine of a hydrated fruit eater is going to bear little resemblance to the urine of a dehydrated carnivore.

The only reliable indicator is the volume one. I believe that will bum a lot of guys out, because they feel gratified by the expulsion of liquid – the more the better. I’ve seen guys here at HUS revel in having soaked the sheets with cups of liquid, lol.

J

SW #605

That’s what’s so nice about a long term marriage. People think that both parties would/should be bored, but there’s nothing like being with a man who knows you, knows what you need and understands how you respond. No pressure to assuage his ego by having an orgasm when you’re tired or in a foul mood because he already knows he can do it when conditions are right. No pressure to “knock it out of the park” all the time because there’s always tomorrow. No sense of desperation.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Susan – “The female orgasm is less reliable than the male’s, and male expectations around a woman’s ability to “perform an orgasm” are not only unfair, they probably significantly reduce the chances of an orgasm occurring! This is why women fake orgasm.”

I think it would help a great deal if men would understand that a woman doesn’t have to have an orgasm to enjoy sex. The issue is every guy wants to be his GF/Wifes/mates personal stud, and the only way WE enjoy sex is to get off. So, to me, any time my SO didn’t have an orgasm, it wasn’t good sex. She set me straight on that pretty early on. she is the most responsive of my intimate partners, so the first time we has sex and she didn’t have one I offered to “help her out” afterwards and she declined. I said something about not finishing the job and she told me she enjoyed herself very much, but she was tired and simply didn’t want to put in the effort. It started a conversation that lasted a few hours, during which I learned for the first time that at least some women seem to simply enjoy watching and participating in getting their partner off more than doing so themselves because for them an orgasm seems to take a considerable amount of personal energy.

The good news is, I’m now completely cool with “quickies” that don’t end in dual fireworks. I always avoided them when possible, because I didn’t think it was fair being that I could climax quickly, but my partner generally could not. Now when the time permits, I’m happy to “jump in”. It certainly helped with getting more sessions in as having children around means you have to take 20 minutes where you can get it…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I think it would help a great deal if men would understand that a woman doesn’t have to have an orgasm to enjoy sex.

Yes, this is important. What J said is so true – it’s great to know your partner so well that one’s responses are understood and accepted. I know it takes my nerve endings a while to wake up in the morning, for example. It’s just not going to happen if my husband wakes me up for sex. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t still feel really great, and that I don’t enjoy sex in the morning. Much better than skipping it altogether

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Herb – “And if it doesn’t, it isn’t.

Also, the feel is often thicker and “creamier” than urine.”

In that case, I can’t check off yellow shower anyway. It was slippery as all hell, and those towels never got to smelling like a men’s bathroom floor.

And, that means she was a genuine squirter. Not every time mind you, only on occasion. But man, when she went, she went big. I pretty much just tossed a beach towel down every session, just to be safe.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

And, that means she was a genuine squirter.

Haha, I’m not surprised there is genuine male resistance to the medical community’s attempt to correct misinformation.

ONE TEASPOON = female ejaculate

EVERYTHING > ONE TEASPOON = urine

There is no magical or secret organ within the bladder producing cups of clear liquid that is not urine.

This is not a value judgment on anyone’s sex life. It’s scientific fact. Your mileage will not vary.

Sassy6519

@ Susan Walsh

Thanks for clearing some things up Susan. I’m glad to know that I wasn’t the only person to have a qualm with the idea of low functioning women based on their sexual responses.

J

Ted,

There are also big and little orgasms.

Herb

@Ted D

I think it would help a great deal if men would understand that a woman doesn’t have to have an orgasm to enjoy sex. The issue is every guy wants to be his GF/Wifes/mates personal stud, and the only way WE enjoy sex is to get off.

+1, plus I think this is related to (and may be in the feedback loop for) things like “she misses her 5 minutes of alpha” (because every guy “knows” the alpha in her past made her cum like crazy) and so on.

I realized over the weekend if women want to understand the mental functioning going on in “alpha envy” to watch the movie High Fidelity especially up to and around the quote,

You are as abandoned and noisy as any character in a porn film, Laura. You are Ian’s plaything, responding to his touch with shrieks of orgasmic delight. No woman in the history of the world is having better sex than sex you are having with Ian… in my head.

I totally got how ridiculous Rob’s reaction was in an object sense at that point and I completely, 100% understood it.

J

I didn’t find it sexy at all, mostly because the woman’s needs are such a low priority, I guess, and there was no emotion.

My husband says that if he had a job producing porn for women our age, it would consisit of nothing but cunnilingus and apologies.

Herb

@J

My husband says that if he had a job producing porn for women our age, it would consisit of nothing but cunnilingus and apologies.

ROFLMPO…

I’ve had a couple of relationships that looked a lot like that…wish I’d know they could have been profitable if I’d used the camcorder

J

LOL. Yep, Herb, you should have recorded that. I know that I’d enjoy watching it.

J

Herb–A tagline for the film–“Love means always having to say your sorry.”

Extra points to thise old enough to get the reference.

Herb

@J

Making me blush at work isn’t fair…plus, I don’t feel comfortable with posting the rest of my response which just makes me blush more 😉

My DH is not big on apologies, but I think that every once in a while you gotta. If you really love someone and you screw up, you SHOULD apologize. I apologize when I’m wrong, however I notice the male strategy is just to sidle up to his righteously angry mate and pretend that nothing has happened. My husband is an expert at this.

Stargate Girl

Late to the party here, but I personally don’t agree with:”There is no such thing as breasts having an orgasm.”

Perhaps orgasm isn’t the correct word, but I definitely experience some serious pleasure from the gals. With the stimulation I like they definitely have something going on. I know there is a link between breast stimulation and uterine contractions, but I have definitely had what we call “boobgasms”.
there is definite feeling of uncontrollable contracting in the breast, there is frequently a trickle to gush of fluid. before said release my breast feel extremely heavy and in need of “release” and after they are back to feeling their normal selves. I do not have the sensation of uterine/clitoral orgasm when this happens. But it is none the less a very exciting, pleasurable and satisfying experience. Just call me a freak of nature, but I like it!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stargate Girl

Interesting – I did some research on response to breast stimulation:

“In some women, stimulation of the breast area during sexual intercourse and foreplay, or just the simple act of having their breasts fondled, creates mild to intense orgasms. Research has suggested that the sensations are genital orgasms caused by nipple stimulation, and may also be directly linked to “the genital area of the brain,” though at least one account has suggested that the orgasms radiate from the breasts.

A study published in the July 2011 Journal of Sexual Medicine was the first to map the female genitals onto the sensory portion of the brain, and concluded that sensation from the nipples travels to the same part of the brain as sensations from the vagina, clitoris and cervix. Komisaruk cited one reason for this possibility to be oxytocin, which is also released during labor and triggers uterus contractions. Nipple stimulation triggers uterine contractions, which then produce a sensation in the genital area of the brain. Komisaruk also relayed, however, that preliminary data suggests that nipple nerves may directly link up with the brain, skipping the uterine middleman, acknowledging the men in his study who showed the same pattern of nipple stimulation activating genital brain regions.”

I find it fascinating that this may be true for both sexes.

J

Herb, it’s a not a problem.

SW–It’s just not going to happen if my husband wakes me up for sex.

I’m not a morning person, but my DH has learned to move very slowly and patiently. It’s a nice way to wake up.

BTW, I’m having trouble posting today. It looks like ny posts don’t take but then, after a long pause, there they are. I’m going to quit for a while. Be back later.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

SgGirl, that sounds lovely.

But can you get your hubby to stop calling women who don’t experience such responses “low function”? My husband likes my boobs and my reaction to his boob fondling just fine. 😛

Ramble

I think it would help a great deal if men would understand that a woman doesn’t have to have an orgasm to enjoy sex.

Which is basically the opposite of what the Equalists tried to teach them.

I mean, we wouldn’t want to have a “Double” Standard.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

I learned for the first time that at least some women seem to simply enjoy watching and participating in getting their partner off more than doing so themselves because for them an orgasm seems to take a considerable amount of personal energy.

Yes given that the discussion is sort of my fault (Why I keep doing that? I should keep my opinions to myself…) I actually enjoy the…thrusting and the kissing and penetration more than the orgasm and I don’t only don’t need it I particularly don’t like it that often, I mean once in a while is nice every time I get horny not so much. It does leaves me spent like I just climbed a mountain so the after glow is more me drooling and being out of combat for solid hours and is not pleasant imagine if you have to climb a mountain every other day. Which is nice if I know I can sleep the rest of the day and just lazy around but in weekdays is not pleasant to wake up and have to coffee up myself to be able to remove myself from bed, also my muscles inside hurt if I had been having too much fun in a short period of time and I lose my appetite is really breaks havoc on my body since all of it is part of the orgasmic experience, the poet that called them “little deaths” was totally thinking of something like it. So yeah being “high functioning” is not as fun as you might think. And I’m also glad that my husband is not forcing the orgasm just to feel “like a stud” thankful indeed I’m sure I will not enjoy myself if I had to go there every time we have sex, YMMV.

Herb

@J

It did not work…in fact, I think there is a picture of the moment in dictionaries from that year next to the word fail

One issue now adays, that I think I discussed upthread or on another post, is the meme that has spread since the early 90s that it always the man’s place to apologize even if both fights know it’s the woman in the wrong. This is, to my experience, both the oldest and the most insidious element of the princess personality most men come to assume American women as a whole have. The fact that it at least was (and from what little I see anymore more) a default in popular media, especially sitcoms, does not help things.

Although I can laugh with you and your husband about your porn description, the truth that makes the humor will set off a lot of men’s hackles about that very meme.

As for the other half of 40+ women’s porn per your description, as a single man I’d rather more men did not get that message…I like holding on to the few advantages I have

Stargate Girl

Hope: will do what I can to change his mindset. He’s used to a borderline nymph 😀 so I think to him everyone else seems to be kinda “low functioning”.

Herb

@Ramble

Which is basically the opposite of what the Equalists tried to teach them.

To quote Christine Lavine’s very funny song, Sensative New Age Guys (a chorus of men reply in the parenthesis):

Whose last names are hypenated?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who like “Three Men and a Baby” a movie I hated?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Whose consciousness is constantly raising?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Whose tax free income is amazing?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who thinks that red meat is disgusting?
Who’s into UFO’s channeling, and usting?
Who believes us when we say we’ve got premenstrual syndrome?
Who doesn’t know who plays in the Seattle Kingdome?

Who likes music that repetitious?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who likes music that’s repetitious?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who’s concerned about your orgasm? (silence)
Well, I guess it’s more important that they have ’em.
(Sensitive new age guys.)

Humor aside, it is true that the ideal of the 80s that impressed on me was the simultaneous orgasm. While for a variety of reasons I don’t have to worry about that in my current relationship it’s still a hard one to shake.

A girl I was hanging out with once asked me, “What is ‘Tune In Tokyo’?” (after hearing someone reference it in a joke she did not get).

Well, instead of being completely rude, I pretended to be the girl and put my hands on my head and had her play with my “boobs” as if she were attempting to Tune in Tokyo.

She was smiling and giggling like crazy. It was an easy pick up

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

I say “I’m sorry” all the time to my husband. I own up to it when it’s my fault, or when I’m wrong, and I don’t make scenes or drama. So we don’t ever fight because there’s no need.

Alas, I was too immature to do this when I was younger. Sometimes hindsight is 20/20. I bought into the “the girl is always right” mentality for a while, but that attitude is rather toxic in relationships.

It’s not just American women buying into it either, thanks to movies and TV shows being exported all over the world. My Chinese cousin loves American shows.

Herb

@Stargate Girl

Perhaps orgasm isn’t the correct word, but I definitely experience some serious pleasure from the gals. With the stimulation I like they definitely have something going on. I know there is a link between breast stimulation and uterine contractions, but I have definitely had what we call “boobgasms”.

I think I get what you’re talking about at least on some level if not the specific uterine contractions.

Certainly, I know that strong sensation of types that aren’t even necessarily sexual but are done in a sexual context give me some of the physical and, to an even larger degree, mental sensations of orgasm. At one point my GF asked if I was having “mental orgasms” from the fact I was repeated shuttering which is as good a phrase as any I know.

As for physical effects, men can, under extreme stimulation, even mental, have a flow of fluid that isn’t really orgasm but is very pleasurable and, more importantly, doesn’t hit the reset button.

Ramble

Herb, those lyrics are great.

Herb

@Ramble:

A girl I was hanging out with once asked me, “What is ‘Tune In Tokyo’?” (after hearing someone reference it in a joke she did not get).

I used to do that to my Janets in my RHPS stage (I did most of my time playing Rocky) while simulating fondling her doing “Touch Me”. Then, one of my last ones just grabbed my hands and had me fondle her for real.

Ah, nostalgia.

And those lyrics are hysterical, I agree…it’s even funnier if you listen to it (if you have Rhapsody, they have the whole album…she’s got some great ones).

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

And I’m back to being pee’d on. LOL

Oh well, it was fun either way. 😛

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

And I’m back to being pee’d on. LOL

FWIW, getting your partner so turned on she loses control of her bladder strikes me as impressive as getting a paraurethral gland (whatever that is) to secrete. Personally, I’m wondering how women even know they’ve ejaculated a teaspoon of liquid – especially since it’s bound to mix in with the general wet spot

Alias

Susan:
““In some women, stimulation of the breast area during sexual intercourse and foreplay, or just the simple act of having their breasts fondled, creates mild to intense orgasms. Research has suggested that the sensations are genital orgasms caused by nipple stimulation, and may also be directly linked to “the genital area of the brain,” though at least one account has suggested that the orgasms radiate from the breasts.”
———–
Somewhat related;
That’s why some OBgyns have (at least in the past) advised against breastfeeding during pregnancy for high risk women.
Nipple stimulation can cause uterine contractions.

Ramble

That’s why some OBgyns have (at least in the past) advised against breastfeeding during pregnancy for high risk women.
Nipple stimulation can cause uterine contractions.

I had to read that sentence 3 times before I understood that the women were being advised against breastfeeding baby #1 while pregnant baby #2.

All I could think was, “Forget advising against it. How is it even possible?”.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

All I could think was, “Forget advising against it. How is it even possible?”.

Haha I had the same response!

Alias

@ Ramble:
“All I could think was, “Forget advising against it. How is it even possible?”.”
—–
What exactly would make it impossible, can you be more specific?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Alias

What exactly would make it impossible, can you be more specific?

That a woman might breastfeed her child before it was even born.

I do recall breastfeeding being arousing, just like having my breasts touched during sex. I recall having a response that they were now meant for the baby and I really didn’t want my husband touching them during that period. I’ve read this is common.

In my experience, there is a straight line, like a string that can be tugged, between breast stimulation and genital arousal. I haven’t experienced what Stargate Girl describes, but it’s clearly been observed by one researcher, who says that 29% of women reported having these feelings in a study.

Herb

@Susan

I find it fascinating that this may be true for both sexes.

At the risk of oversharing, it is VERY true for at least one man. I’ve had a gf call them “Easy buttons” like the Staples ads, which she happy passed on to the current one (by demonstration at a munch no less and through two layers). Apparently my responses are quite entertaining.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Herb

It’s pretty hard to overshare here, haha. I have read that some men really love having their nipples touched. Which may explain why evolution hasn’t rid men of them

Yeah, reason chicks who don’t have orgasms are “frigid” is because they are going to cheat on you.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Yeah, reason chicks who don’t have orgasms are “frigid” is because they are going to cheat on you.

That makes total sense, I never thought of that!

Hmmmm, I wonder why some women have difficulty having an orgasm. Maybe it’s meant as a deterrent from having sex with someone other than a favored male, which is historically a very risky thing to do.

Lokland

Ohh and the nipple thing is awesome.
Leads to stimulatory overload for me if it goes on too long. My nervous system actually decides its nap time.

Alias

Oh, now I see. lol
That’s what I get for posting and running.

The scenario is- Mom’s pregnant and high-risk for preterm labor with #2 while breastfeeding #1.

Herb

@Lokland

Yeah, reason chicks who don’t have orgasms are “frigid” is because they are going to cheat on you.

That’s a bit too cynical even for me.

The ex-wife wasn’t frigid in that sense and cheated on me.

The poly women I’ve dated have “cheated” on me (at least, they’ve had other partners while with me) and they had orgasms with me.

I get the bonding issues and how they can be screwed up by casual sex, but the “no orgasm = doesn’t want to bond = plans to cheat” is a bit too much credit to the average person in controlling their actions.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

A good nipple pinch just before the moment of truth can set me off like an atom bomb. Usually reserved for the more physically aggressive sessions. And my SO knows beyond all doubt that its ALL over at that point. 😛

Alias

I should add that women at high risk for preterm labor may be advised against any nipple stimulation, including sexual.
Hormonal release during nipple stim can cause uterine contractions.

I really wish there was an edit button.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Herb – “I get the bonding issues and how they can be screwed up by casual sex, but the “no orgasm = doesn’t want to bond = plans to cheat” is a bit too much credit to the average person in controlling their actions.”

I don’t think no orgasm means no bond, but I would bet that her having orgasms will go a LONG way toward talking her hamster into telling her you are “the one”. And, I would also wager that continuing orgasms also goes a long way towards talking her hamster into staying, even when things might not be so great. It isn’t a deciding factor, but I suspect it carries some weight if/when she starts looking at other options.

A decent guy that can bring orgasms is always going to be better than a decent guy that doesn’t. The fun part is that there are so many ways to get her there, that it may really come down to a matter of biological compatibility in some cases.

also intj

We apologize freely in our family too, as well as respond to those apologies with saying, “I forgive you,” followed by a hug. “I love you” and “Thank you” are daily staples. I think it’s a real strength in life together. My kids went to a parochial elementary school that used the Peacemaker Ministries curriculum, which is outstanding. Just to give a sample, here are their four promises of forgiveness:
1. I will not dwell on this incident.
2. I will not bring up this incident again and use it against you.
3. I will not talk to others about this incident.
4. I will not let this incident stand between us or hinder our personal relationship.

Good stuff.

Stargate Girl

Susan-
The info you posted regarding the link of nipple breast stimulation and it’s connection to uterine contractions I am quite aware of. However, im my case at least, the sensations I get are completely in the breast area. Like I said, freak of nature. and since this is purely anectdotal, I can’t give ya any info to back it up, can only state what I myself have experienced.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stargate Girl

I posted that because the research actually shows that there is a direct pathway between the breasts and the arousal center of the brain, at least according to one study. And it’s not gender specific, so men may have the same experience you do. I wasn’t trying to argue your reality – it may be unusual, but has clearly been observed in research.

Lokland

@Susan, Herb

“Hmmmm, I wonder why some women have difficulty having an orgasm. Maybe it’s meant as a deterrent from having sex with someone other than a favored male, which is historically a very risky thing to do.”

A woman having more than one alpha lover makes sense. ALL of them could make her orgasm if they were hot enough.

Not to mention the sperm competition occuring. It’d be like throwing the Saints Vs. Patriots Vs. Steelers Vs. Lions (the provider). Whichever sperm wins is the AMOSperm of all time.

——————————————————-

I don’t think an orgasm is essential or any such nonsense every time but their absense completely or a majority of the time is most likely going to end badly.

Not to mention I get an uber dopamine rush when she scratches bloody rivulets down my back.

Herb

@Ted D

Usually reserved for the more physically aggressive sessions.

Are there any other kind?

Her Beloved

“It should be noted that the likelihood of achieving orgasm via penile penetration alone relies on physiology. The ideal distance between the vagina and clitoris is said to be the width of a woman’s thumb. That’s close enough that every thrust tugs on the clitoris. Conversely, a distance of greater than 1 and 1/8 in. is said to make orgasm impossible via thrusting alone. Estimates of women in this latter group range from 70-80%. Not surprisingly, short women are more likely to enjoy a short distance between vagina and clitoris. Many women find that they can orgasm during penetrative sex by pressing their clitoris against the public bone of the male, by employing different positions and angle of entry.”

We uncut men stay closer to our lover’s clitorus because our members move within the foreskin. We do not need to pull out to the same extent that cut men do in order to feel sensation. When cut men pull out they also scrape out lubricating fluids, another reason why women have reported sex with cut men to be painful.

http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

Lokland, I’m skeptical about the “alpha” thing. Love trumps alpha, and women fall in love with men who aren’t top of the dominance scale all the time.

Susan has quoted stats that most casual sex encounter don’t end in orgasm for the woman, so I don’t believe that merely alpha is sufficient.

Ramble

I recall having a response that they were now meant for the baby and I really didn’t want my husband touching them during that period. I’ve read this is common.

How long was it until your mindset changed back (i.e. how old was the infant)?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

How long was it until your mindset changed back (i.e. how old was the infant)?

IIRC, I felt that way as long as I breastfed, which was about a year in each case. So yeah, hubby had to look but don’t touch during that time. Of course, touching often led to major milk leakage anyway, so they were less tempting than usual, haha.

Lokland

@Hope

Ya I figured that was gonna cause a kerfuffle.

Let me re-explain my whole idea now that I am sitting down.

The female orgasm devolped in response to something. I don’t know what but it definetly increases pair bonding due to oxcytocin release.

Men underwent a counter evolutionary adaption (a classical arms race) that caused us to try for the female orgasm to increase her pair bondedness. This then reduced the likliehood of cuckolding.

The lack of female orgasm means that whatever it developed in response to is lacking in that individual. It could be alpha, beta, sunny golden locks or the ability to make epic paper airplanes. (Or genetic incompatibility, happens all the time.)

From a guys perspective this is bad, really really bad.

Not only is he lacking but it might be an inherent biological trait that cannot be changed. Means that that pair bond is doomed for failure.
Or its something that is plastic such as slpha like behaviour.

Theres this feeling amongst guys that the past alpha gave her epic orgasms. Fact. This leads me to believe that it alpha acted as the orgasm trigger (all facets, size, gene quality, intelligence, social dominance).

So finally, if this orgasm trigger could be mimic’d men would then evolve an adaptation that allowed them to mimic this behaviour.

As for love conquers all. Can I have some of what you had?

Alias

Hope:
” I’m skeptical about the “alpha” thing.

Susan has quoted stats that most casual sex encounter don’t end in orgasm for the woman, so I don’t believe that merely alpha is sufficient.”
————-
If women can only O with alphas, then some alphas have DD batteries.

purplesneakers

Lokland, I’m skeptical about the “alpha” thing. Love trumps alpha, and women fall in love with men who aren’t top of the dominance scale all the time.

Susan has quoted stats that most casual sex encounter don’t end in orgasm for the woman, so I don’t believe that merely alpha is sufficient.

+1

I’m going to make a tmi confession here… once in college I almost hooked up with some ‘alpha’ player. I was aroused while we were making out against a tree, but once we got back to his room, my buzz had worn off, he made it clear he was only interested in sex, I had all sorts of doubts, and I just could not get physically aroused enough to go through with anything.

Her Beloved

*Usually reserved for the more physically aggressive sessions.
*Are there any other kind?

Curious Herb, if you are cut or uncut. Cuts require more aggressive thrusting in order to feel sensation.

Ramble

1. I will not dwell on this incident.
2. I will not bring up this incident again and use it against you.
3. I will not talk to others about this incident.
4. I will not let this incident stand between us or hinder our personal relationship.

Once, upon hearing someone say, “Forgive and forget”, my mother said, “To forgive is to forget. If you keep thinking about it or bringing it up, you have not forgotten.”

So, if someone, by accident, stepped on your foot, really hard, and it really hurt. But, you could see that they were terribly sorry for what had happened, there is a good chance that you will definitely and genuinely forgive them. And, forget about it.

But, if they fucked your sister, there is a good chance, that, regardless of what words you may have said, that you did not genuinely forgive them…or, ever will.

There are exceptions to this, of course. If a forgivable thing was also funny, and you keep remembering the funny part (the person that stepped on your foot, farted while apologizing), that does not mean that you did not actually forgive them.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Lokland – “Not to mention I get an uber dopamine rush when she scratches bloody rivulets down my back.”

Really pointy high heels can do similar things to ass cheeks. And it certainly does get the blood rushing. 😉 Be careful though. I was almost impaled once during a reverse girl-on-top because her heels were digging into my ribs. I didn’t stop her, but I was hoping not to bleed all over the sheets. No punctures, but I had bruises that made me grin every time they ached. LOL

Herb – “Usually reserved for the more physically aggressive sessions.
Are there any other kind? ”

Well up until my current SO and finding the red pill, most of my sessions were far from “physically aggressive”. Back in my blue pill days, I mostly didn’t believe a woman would want to be “ridden hard” and that doing so would be degrading. Sure, I’ve had some moments previously, but they all involved alcohol.

Now that I know they like it (or at least my current SO likes a good pounding pretty regularly) the majority of our sessions are at least going to cause some heavy breathing and a bit of sweat. A few times I month I put on some slow music and go the making love route. To be honest, I think I need those more than she does. I hate that at my core I am rather sappy.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Now that I know they like it (or at least my current SO likes a good pounding pretty regularly) the majority of our sessions are at least going to cause some heavy breathing and a bit of sweat. A few times I month I put on some slow music and go the making love route.

Sounds like you’ve found the magic formula. That alone is worth the price of the red pill, IMO.

Herb

@Her Beloved

Curious Herb, if you are cut or uncut. Cuts require more aggressive thrusting in order to feel sensation.

For the record, cut, but who said physically aggressive had anything to do with the amount of thrusting or any penetration.

The clues to what else it might be are in plenty of my posts.

Then again, who said I was the physically aggressive party for that matter.

Alias

Ramble:
“But, if they fucked your sister, there is a good chance, that, regardless of what words you may have said, that you did not genuinely forgive them…or, ever will.”
——–
Yikes, I feel sorry for your brother-in-law! lol

Lokland

@Ted D

“Really pointy high heels can do similar things to ass cheeks. And it certainly does get the blood rushing. Be careful though. I was almost impaled once during a reverse girl-on-top because her heels were digging into my ribs. I didn’t stop her, but I was hoping not to bleed all over the sheets. No punctures, but I had bruises that made me grin every time they ached.”

LOL tried that too. First time when she was swinging her leg on top she stabbed me in the calf. That hurt…. so good.

Ramble

I’m going to make a tmi confession here… once in college I almost hooked up with some ‘alpha’ player. I was aroused while we were making out against a tree, but once we got back to his room, my buzz had worn off, he made it clear he was only interested in sex, I had all sorts of doubts, and I just could not get physically aroused enough to go through with anything.

Purple, you will need to get much, MUCH more graphic to be considered TMI.

Her Beloved

*But, if they fucked your sister, there is a good chance, that, regardless of what words you may have said, that you did not genuinely forgive them…or, ever will.

Whoa. Dude, if you’re getting jealous of dudes who have sex with your sister, you might want to see someone about that.

*I hate that at my core I am rather sappy.

Why?

Ramble

If you keep thinking about it or bringing it up, you have not forgotten.

Should have read

If you keep thinking about it or bringing it up, you have not forgiven.

Herb

@Ted D

Back in my blue pill days, I mostly didn’t believe a woman would want to be “ridden hard” and that doing so would be degrading. Sure, I’ve had some moments previously, but they all involved alcohol.

Now that I know they like it (or at least my current SO likes a good pounding pretty regularly) the majority of our sessions are at least going to cause some heavy breathing and a bit of sweat.

See my response to Her Beloved.

Really pointy high heels can do similar things to ass cheeks. And it certainly does get the blood rushing. 😉 Be careful though. I was almost impaled once during a reverse girl-on-top because her heels were digging into my ribs. I didn’t stop her, but I was hoping not to bleed all over the sheets. No punctures, but I had bruises that made me grin every time they ached. LOL

Interesting…it’s very rare I have marks or I’m even very sore…the lack of marks is sometimes a disappointment for me.

Herb

Purple, you will need to get much, MUCH more graphic to be considered TMI.

Very, very true…this place is halfway to being as bad as old Boston netgoth used to be.

But only halfway.

purplesneakers

Purple, you will need to get much, MUCH more graphic to be considered TMI.</blockquote.

I only disagree that women always have some alpha in her past that rocked her world, because 1) stats from Susan about low female orgasms in casual sex and 2) only 20% of men are supposedly “alpha” but definitely more than 20% of men can give women orgasms (unless you disagree?).

A funny aside about Herb’s lyrics… my husband is totally the “Sensitive New Age guy.” He likes aliens, too. 😛

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Her Beloved – “*I hate that at my core I am rather sappy.

Why?”

Well for one, as an INTJ, I tend to get pissy when emotions cloud my judgment.

Second having an “emotional gooey center” makes it rather difficult for me to maintain a level of aloofness and detachment. I can do it most of the time, but on occasion it gets the best of me, but at least it only happens when I’m by myself or perhaps with my mate or a close friends/family. I don’t watch “serious” movies for this reason. Nothing makes me feel more ridiculous than crying because of something sad in a film.

Third I have to sometimes fight my emotional responses to situations and that can be distracting and a waste of energy. (this goes along with point one actually)

For the most part, I’m pretty good at shutting all the emotional stuff down, but when it comes to my SO and children it can be very difficult to keep in check. With them, I obviously don’t shut down all emotion, but I dislike that I go through periods where I really need to feel deep emotional connections with my SO, although that is one of the primary purposes of the relationship. It makes me feel a bit “needy”, and certainly doesn’t make me feel like I’m being the captain. I can usually tell when it’s coming, and I’ll give her a heads up that I’m going into stage 5 clinger mode. :p The good part is they usually pass within a couple days.

When you read the newest post, I think you’ll see that you’re the ultimate female fantasy.

Herb

@Hope

To give you an idea how old those lyrics, in the intro she invites guys to sing along wherever they are, including listening to their Walkman on the beach.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Hope – “I only disagree that women always have some alpha in her past that rocked her world, ”

I’m not disagreeing with Lokland on this, but I am on the fence. I don’t think it is “Alpha” to give a woman an orgasm so much as just really good physical compatibility. And by “give” I mean some variation of P in V, since any guy with a working tongue should be able to succeed using oral provided the woman is awake and interested in having one.

I’m certainly not alpha now, and that being true I was farther from it before, yet I managed to tease out my fair share of PinV orgasms from my former partners. My sample size is small, but I’m fairly certain that I simply found women with whom I was physically compatible.

Now that being said, I bet that there is a greater chance of success for an alpha that puts in a bit of time and effort. The reason casual sex is so unsatisfying for women is in most cases the guy (whether alpha or not) isn’t very invested in the woman’s pleasure, and it shows in lack of orgasms. I would venture that all things being equal in terms of love and feelings, a woman with a more “alpha” man is more likely to have orgasms than if the man were more “beta”. Unless of course the particular women tends to get off on “slow, tender, loving” sex instead of the more “carnal, aggressive, physical” type.

Now take a guy that came from the ‘beta’ camp and show him how to spank you, and you have a very versatile lover.

also intj

Ramble, I think reconciliation is a process that can take time.

Herb

@Ted D

Now take a guy that came from the ‘beta’ camp and show him how to spank you, and you have a very versatile lover.

Should every beta just buy a copy of Jay Wiseman’s SM101 and be done with it, then?

Stargate Girl

Ted -d: you asked a while back why women read romance novels. I was trying to come up with some deep, intellectual reason. I failed. I tend to read “historical romance” usually things with some burly scottish guy and some hapless winsome creature. It’s porn for women. Men are visual, women get aroused from various means. Most of the books I’ve read have some young maiden who this burly, devilish, yet honorable man falls for and deflowers and then can’t get enough of to save his life. There is usually much description of the deed, and somewhat flowery language that I guess appeals to many of us ladies. I would surmise, based on my own experiences, that things we see in mainstream porn can actually be done by a couple, not so much the things we read about in romance novels. Women’s version of variety? I highly doubt I will ever have on a gown that has a bodice so daringly revealing, and covering ever so little in an enticing manner that my husband will be overcome with lust and have to rip it off, and then toss me to the bed and ravish me without thought of consequences(not that I’d protest). I think romance novels are a fun way to feed the varietal needs women have. Porn I think can do that for a guy(i am assuming no addiction issues). Spice baby! Spice!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stargate Girl

I tend to read “historical romance” usually things with some burly scottish guy and some hapless winsome creature

Sounds like you liked Outlander too!

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Herb – I don’t know about all that, but if it works. 😉

I’m just saying that it’s probably easier for a more “beta” guy to step it up in the bedroom than for an alpha to tone it down. But as far as it goes, alpha/beta doesn’t really matter sexually in a LTR. All a guy has to do is learn what his SO likes, and run with it. It just helps a great deal when she TELLS him what that is. Of course, I’ve heard “if I have to tell you then it doesn’t work”, which to this day strikes me as completely stupid. Some women seem to expect men to read their minds I think.

Although it just occurred to me that most women are pretty good at projecting their satisfaction during a good romp. A guy can learn a lot about what a woman likes on his own by trying lots of stuff and watching her reaction. For me in beta mode though, I wouldn’t have tried fearing the wrath of a woman scorned during sex. I still don’t go “off the reservation” too often, but sometimes I just go for broke and switch it up. It strikes me a little bit like calling football plays. Start in position A, she gets into the groove, starts cooling down a little so bring on special teams and position 2, that goes good but my leg is getting tired, so switch to defense and let her drive for a bit… You get the idea. I don’t go there often though, because it takes a lot of time and energy, and as good as those sessions are they are just too much effort for regular use.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

Stargate Girl – “I highly doubt I will ever have on a gown that has a bodice so daringly revealing, and covering ever so little in an enticing manner that my husband will be overcome with lust and have to rip it off, and then toss me to the bed and ravish me without thought of consequences(not that I’d protest)”

Why not? See, this is why I get miffed about romance novels. If you want to have a man rip your bodice off and take you passionately, get a damned bodice and have your hubby do it! Shit, just go get one yourself and surprise him with it. I can tell you if I walked in and my SO was wearing a revealing bodice, she’d soon have more than her fill of ripping and ravishing.

My SO doesn’t have a bodice (although I wouldn’t mind seeing her in one) but she has some “versatile” clothing that has been put to use in the bedroom. (Her high heels being part of that collection) I LOVE going out in public when she is wearing any of it too. I make sure to comment on how much I enjoyed that piece of attire last time she had it on, and it turns into a really great way to prime the pump for action later. I also make it a point to “break in” every new pair of heels she buys. 😉

And, if its been awhile since I took her somewhere nice, she will come home with a new pair and “hold them hostage” until I take her somewhere she can wear them. LOL

To me, if there is something my SO wants, I’d MUCH rather she tell me so we can do it, than have her reading some silly book describing it in too much detail. After all, that is part of meeting her needs. Of course I expect the same in return, but it so happens that she can satisfy some of mine while I satisfy hers. Win/Win!

Ramble

Yikes, I feel sorry for your brother-in-law! lol

That’s interesting, especially since I don’t have a brother-in-law. I think something got lost in translation.

Herb

@Ted D

All a guy has to do is learn what his SO likes, and run with it. It just helps a great deal when she TELLS him what that is. Of course, I’ve heard “if I have to tell you then it doesn’t work”, which to this day strikes me as completely stupid. Some women seem to expect men to read their minds I think.

It’s called negotiation in the S&M world. A popular form is to print out a checklist, fill it out (usually something like: yes/no on I’ve done it and a No-10 scale on how much it turns you on with No being a hard limit, 1 being ‘not interesting’ to 10 being ‘please, immediately’), and then exchange them. I don’t see why a more limited version wouldn’t work for a couple in a LTR or people just starting to have sex, albeit with a shorter list.

I’m not usually so formal a negotiator (I like to negotiate with my toy bag) but YMMV.

Ramble

Whoa. Dude, if you’re getting jealous of dudes who have sex with your sister, you might want to see someone about that.

Something definitely got lost in translation. Hypothetically, I was speaking to a girl. A girl who had her boyfriend fuck her sister.

Herb

@Stargate Girl

Why not? See, this is why I get miffed about romance novels. If you want to have a man rip your bodice off and take you passionately, get a damned bodice and have your hubby do it! Shit, just go get one yourself and surprise him with it.

Ted D speaks much truth…if you need help finding one, contacting your local SCA is a good start (or I could dig up some links).

Making a simple and easily ripped off one wouldn’t be too hard, either.

Alias

Ramble,
No loss, I simply thought you’d use the example of not forgiving someone who slept with your wife not your sister. Anyway I was kidding, but I wasn’t the only one who read it as a bit too much ..
Her beloved in # 676 said:
“Whoa. Dude, if you’re getting jealous of dudes who have sex with your sister, you might want to see someone about that.”

Alias

Ramble:
“Something definitely got lost in translation. Hypothetically, I was speaking to a girl. A girl who had her boyfriend fuck her sister.”

OK, yeah, there was a loss in the translation.
Coming from a man, we both read it as you never forgiving your BIL, when you were referring to the above. lol
Yeah, that situation would be hard to forgive.

Stargate Girl

here’s another reason to read the romance novels: Gives me ideas. If i haven’t read/experienced/seen something, how do I know it exists? We’ve discovered quite a few tantalizing activities via internet/reading/talking amongst friends. Our experiences together are ever expanding.

Her Beloved

*I’ve heard “if I have to tell you then it doesn’t work”, which to this day strikes me as completely stupid. Some women seem to expect men to read their minds I think.

*It’s called negotiation in the S&M world. A popular form is to print out a checklist, fill it out (usually something like: yes/no on I’ve done it and a No-10 scale on how much it turns you on with No being a hard limit, 1 being ‘not interesting’ to 10 being ‘please, immediately’), and then exchange them. I don’t see why a more limited version wouldn’t work for a couple in a LTR or people just starting to have sex, albeit with a shorter list.

Negogiations and check lists take away much of the thrill for many folk. In our fantasy life we never have to “tell” the other what we like, they do it spontaneously. Although yeah, communication is of extreme importance in a sexual relationship. How to balance this? Some people never communicate to their partners their likes, dislikes, needs and wants and 20 years down the line feel bitter and resentful. The stage before you ever have sex is probably the best time to communicate what you like. Then when the sex finally does happen, the other can do what you like and it will feel spontaneous because its not like you just told them to do it 60 seconds previously.

Lokland

@Hope

The more I think about it the more likely it isn’t alpha that men fear.

“I only disagree that women always have some alpha in her past that rocked her world, because 1) stats from Susan about low female orgasms in casual sex and 2) only 20% of men are supposedly “alpha” but definitely more than 20% of men can give women orgasms (unless you disagree?).”

It might have something more to do with genetic compatibility. AKA I want my genes to be the healthiest and to her most different/diverse set possible. If there was another guy in her past who was more complementary then it could be assumed that she would be more attracted to him.
I’m beginning to suspect that the female orgasm may have something to do with genetic compatibility. Not so much alpha vs. beta which is only part of the entire gene set.

Herb

@Her Beloved

Negogiations and check lists take away much of the thrill for many folk. In our fantasy life we never have to “tell” the other what we like, they do it spontaneously.

There are other ways. As I said, in terms of S&M play I like to negotiate with my toy bag. If I have a play date with someone, at least early on, one of my limits will be “only what is in my toy bag” and I can pack it only with items I’m willing to have that person use on me (certainly, types of play that do involve toys has to be discussed separately). That way I have not idea what they are going to do but they both have some indication of what I like (because with new partners, and to be honest partners I’m not romantically attached to in general, I’m not likely to pack things they might enjoy but I don’t so I accept out of a desire to please) as well as my limits.

How do you convert that to vanilla sex between new people? Perhaps slipping ideas into the flirt as well as the occasional story you read somewhere (blame HUS 😉 ) and how you’d never do that in the lead up.

The stage before you ever have sex is probably the best time to communicate what you like. Then when the sex finally does happen, the other can do what you like and it will feel spontaneous because its not like you just told them to do it 60 seconds previously.

Another way is flagging which started, at least according to the stories, in the gay men’s leather scene and is now quite common. That would be harder to adapt as they’d need to know how to read it but perhaps wearing the hankies on a non sex date to invite questions could work.

My last ex, who was very alpha, definitely left his mark on me, as sad as it is for me to admit it. We had amazing chemistry and sex between us was pretty much porn worthy. I’d like to think that I won’t compare future men to him, in that regard, but I’m afraid that I will end up doing it anyway.

Like Hope said, however, only 20% of men are considered alpha. I don’t think they can leave an impression on all women. I also don’t think the casual sex encounters will leave much of a dent either, since the men in those situations don’t focus on the female’s pleasure.

I think the women who would be the most affected by alphas would be the ones who were in serious relationships with them. Not that many women can secure relationships with alpha men. The women that do are probably the ones who would be the most affected.

I’d assume only high SMV women could snag an alpha for a boyfriend or husband, so that still leaves a significant portion of the female population unscathed.

Lokland, yes, I also think it’s multi-factored. I always thought the “alpha” thing was too simplistic.

Slight tangent: nowadays genetic compatibility is seen in terms of different and diverse mating pairs to minimize deleterious recessives. Some years ago it would have been seen as “animalistic” to have children with someone of a different race/ethnicity.

There are lots of people who are attracted to people who are more genetically similar to them than vastly different (most mating pairs are same-race/ethnicity). I have also read that there is a “sweet spot” of somewhat similar but not too similar in regard to “genetic” attraction.

Also interesting is how the more similar in personality, the more attraction (in a linear function). Opposites actually tend to repel each other according to the research.

This would have implications for genes/environment, or nature/nurture, as well.

Her Beloved

With all this alpha beta talk don’t you fear women who are perfectly satisfied with their beta mates will read all this and start to wonder if they’re missing out on something? Quit while you’re ahead or it’ll be on you.

Lokland

@Hope

“nowadays genetic compatibility is seen in terms of different and diverse mating pairs to minimize deleterious recessives. Some years ago it would have been seen as “animalistic” to have children with someone of a different race/ethnicity.”

I disagree. Today and yesterday genetic compatibility happens when two people are capable of making children heterozygous at the most loci (assuming no dominant disease phenotypes, rare). This usually is easiest between races but the same could be said 500 years ago of two small villages 10miles apart.

As for personaility.

I concur its a like with like I notice works best. I don’t know my fiances MB type but I’m gonna guess its the same as JM (INFJ?) while I’m an INTJ (scientist if thats not right). We get along very well, however I worked on my emotional side for years so I’d say I’m a 50-50 splits of T-F. She’s quite similar as well.
What I disagree with and I’m starting to suspect of the alpha-beta dichotomy is that the genes involved are under epigentic controls, at least the behavioural ones.

Think about it, take a kid from two uber achievers that tell the kid their shit everyday. The kid will be shit despite their good genes.

I think alpha-beta behaviours are way more nurture (epigenetic) dependent than direct gene to phenotype relationships.

If this is messy and looks like I’m on crack its cause I am. I’ll retype it later.

Ted D

Susan – I hadn’t decided if I was even going to read that post. But I’m feeling a little better since the initial discussion, so why not.

And good grief I highly doubt I’m the ultimate fantasy of anyone. My SO loves me despite my mental quirks, but I wouldn’t wish myself or my quirks on anyone!

Lokland

@Susan

Did you leave a comment for me and then delete it?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Did you leave a comment for me and then delete it?

Yeah, I was questioning the alpha/orgasm correlation, but then I saw you’d rethought it so my comment was not relevant.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

I’m beginning to suspect that the female orgasm may have something to do with genetic compatibility.

I think that is only half the answer. I think women need to get themselves in a special mental space to get off. I wouldn’t be surprise if Alpha addicts have to have a man of high status compared to her peers out of some validation and a lesser man is not lesser wouldn’t get her off because she cannot trick herself into that “I’m special because this hottie is fucking me” mental space. I mean why else the same man that looks the same can go from “creepy” to “hot” with just changing some behaviors? His genes didn’t changed did it?
Hope, for example needed to be in a mental space of love and spiritual connection, to achieve her fulfilling relationship with her husband. I’m sure that if we had an “what makes me get off” talk with a deep sense of how and why we could find out that indeed the brain is the most important organ, YMMV of course.

Stargate Girl

Susan-
loved the Outlander series. But I could have to say, that while winsome, Claire was far from hapless.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Stargate Girl

But I could have to say, that while winsome, Claire was far from hapless.

Agreed, she was a feisty one.

OffTheCuff

Ted: “If you want to have a man rip your bodice off and take you passionately, get a damned bodice and have your hubby do it!”

Heh, she’s exaggerating a bit for effect here. Nothing is going to make us near-strangers again, and I never would force her when I was. That’s what she was getting at.

A bodice isn’t a corset — which we do have, a real one with steel boning. It is is exceedingly difficult to rip off! You’ll take about 10 minutes unlacing that thing!

Jackie

@OTC (#714)

I’m obviously way late to the discussion– not sure how we got on to corsets? But I have one for vintage outfits that have the super-tiny waists and there is no way in Hades you could rip that thing off! Maybe you could cut it off, but you would need steel sheers. Those things aren’t going anywhere!

PS: This has given me about a million times more (fictional) respect for Scarlett O’Hara– her corset was laced in to a 17″ waist!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

PS: This has given me about a million times more (fictional) respect for Scarlett O’Hara– her corset was laced in to a 17″ waist!

That is so tiny, I can’t understand it. It must have been excruciatingly painful. Even very slim women have much larger waists than that today.

http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/ Anacaona

Heh I do have a corset and I must say that keeping them on has a similar…effect.

http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

OTC – “A bodice isn’t a corset — which we do have, a real one with steel boning. It is is exceedingly difficult to rip off! You’ll take about 10 minutes unlacing that thing!”

LOL I guess I learned something new today. 😛

And I know she was just making an example, which was my attempt as well. I’m just saying, why do women feel like they need to read a book to “live out a fantasy” if they haven’t asked their guy if he would be willing to do a little role play first?

I don’t watch porn, mostly because I don’t need it when I’m getting sex on the regular and am satisfied with my sex life in general. Perhaps I’m projecting, but I don’t see why any woman happy with her sex life would want/need to read romance novels. Unless she is missing the actual romance, which she should bring up to her mate instead of retreating to fantasy land.

It just seems to me anytime someone has to go outside a relationship to meet a basic relationship need, it is an indication of a problem. Now it may be that the problem is simply that the need cannot be met within the relationship, and then the choices are find a compromise or break it off. If my SO needed to read romance novels because I wasn’t “romantic” enough, I would either step it up or call it quits, because for me there is very little room for compromise on the sexual aspects of my relationships.

I’m willing to adjust all kinds of things to make my relationship work, but I just don’t have the faith to play around with sexual intimacy much. Perhaps that makes me too difficult to deal with, but that is my SO’s decision to make, not mine. The emotional reactions triggered by this discussion are completely knee-jerk and irrational, and as much as I logically know that, I haven’t found a way to stop it from happening. I don’t know that any amount of reassurance from my mate would help, and she certainly hasn’t given me any reason to doubt her, so I know this is my issue. It may be baggage I simply can’t get rid of.

drunicus veritas

Most of my single friends, from the tall handsome ones with degrees and good jobs to less appealling, less alpha ones, have an easy set of criteria they use to evaluate a potential girlfriend.

“Does she have a lot more ‘problems ‘ than me? Does she see me – strong, employed, basically kind – as a potential solution to her problems with student loans/credit card debt/disorganization //daddy issues?”

If the answer is yes,then at best she’ll get a pump and dump, assuming she’s slender or fit and is attractive.
If the answer is no, then a relationship (I believe this is girlspeak for “commitment”) is a possibility.
Nobody wants to board a sinking ship. Miserable, troubled, or irresponsible women – and there are many – are terrible choices for wives or girlfriends.

Abbot

Here is one way to increase your chances of getting an appropriate boyfriend – “creep shame” men into behavioral acceptability.
.
Unfortunately, “they can hide behind this fear of the stigma of being “creep shamed” as a refusal to change his not-OK behaviors.”
.http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-04-11/the-soapbox-why-creep-shaming-is-total-bs/
.
Despite the fact that men go about it more quietly, there is an implied shame felt by women.
.
Unfortunately, they can hide behind this fear of the stigma of being “slut shamed” as a refusal to change her not-OK behaviors.”