Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes mention that the Buddha didn't hand down a mechanism in which to revive the Sangha if it ever died, such as the Bhikkhuni Sangha. What structural constraints described in the Vinaya prevents its revival?

The Theravadin Bhikkhuni Sangha, the nuns' order founded by the Buddha, died out because of war and famine almost a millennium ago, and the Buddha provided no mechanism for its revival. (The same holds true for the Bhikkhu Sangha, or monks' order. If it ever dies out, there is no way it can be revived.) Thus the only ordination opportunities open to women in Theravadin countries are as lay nuns, observing eight or ten precepts.

Since the OP has asked the question within the context of the ancient texts, this thread has been moved to the Classical Theravada forum.

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Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

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dhammabum wrote:Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes mention that the Buddha didn't hand down a mechanism in which to revive the Sangha if it ever died, such as the Bhikkhuni Sangha. What structural constraints described in the Vinaya prevents its revival?

According to the Tipitaka, there must be a quorum of nuns and monks to ordain a new nun (bhikkhuni). If there are no nuns around, there can be no new ordinations.

However, Maha Pajapati Gotami was ordained by the Buddha with no other nun at the "ceremony". Current bhikkhunis use a line traced back to Dharmagupta which is believed to be traced back to the original, others disagree. Here are a few relevant quotes from the Suttas:

The Buddha was asked in so many words, "is there even one woman nun who is fully enlightened?" The Buddha responded, "There are not only one hundred . . . or five hundred, but far more bhikkhunis, my disciples, who by realizing for themselves with direct knowledge here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom . . ." Sutta 73 Majjhima Nikaya and also in other suttas too.

“I will not take final Nibbana till I have nuns and female disciples who are accomplished, till I have laymen and laywomen followers who are accomplished.” Digha Nikaya 16.3.8

“After I am gone, the Sangha, if it wants, may abolish the lesser and minor training rules.” Digha Nikaya 16

Although, Ananda did not remember or know what the "minor" rules were and it was decided at the First Council to keep them all. It is not known if the requirement for a quorum of nuns is considered a minor rule or not.

Forgive me if I'm slightly off topic, but I was witness, here in Southern California, to ordained nuns over 20 years ago. WATBUDDHAGODOM was an interfaith south east Asian Buddhist Temple founded by a Lunpo from Vietnam, came as a refugee to Thailand, and settled In Highland California and built two small temples on a large block of land, now unfortuanetly a housing tract. He may have been Mahayana coming form Vietnam, but he was interfaith serving Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, and Thai Buddhist, the majority of which were Therevada. The small Vietnamese temple had a huge 15' tall statue of "Mother" a woman with white skin, possibly related to Quan Yin, the Thai temple was traditional Therevada Thai buddhas. I lived there for several months around 1990.

Ok well now to my point, this Lunpo believed in the ordination of women, and had invited two or three Buddhist nuns to live at the temple, not in white, but full orange brown robes, they lived in a mobile home seperate from the monks quarters, the thing I don't know for sure is whether they were ordained in Mahayana or Therevada tradition, and where their ordination occured, unfortunately I knew so little about the absolute rarity of this situation, I never thought to question them about the circumstances of their ordination.

But yes, I believe the order of nuns has already been re-established, its just a matter of not everyone recognizing them, I haven't heard stories of them being ridiculed or disrespected for being nuns, just not everyone accepts that they actually are nuns, as many of them don't believe in nuns. Very much like women Christian or Catholic priests or ministers, they exist but are not universally accepted.

18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

David N. Snyder wrote:“After I am gone, the Sangha, if it wants, may abolish the lesser and minor training rules.” Digha Nikaya 16

This has nothing to do with the legal procedures required to make an ordination valid. It is about the training rules to be followed by monastics once they have been ordained. The 500 Arahants decided not to abolish any because there was no consensus as to which they were. The topic is discussed in the Milindapañha.

lyndon taylor wrote:I don't know for sure is whether they were ordained in Mahayana or Therevada tradition....

Just to clarify: The Mahāyāna isn't an ordination lineage. There are three extant ordination lineages: the Theravāda, the Dharmaguptaka, and the Mūlasarvāstivāda, all of which have descended from the ancient Sthaviras of the second council, and are therefore Sthaviravāda. Of these three, the Dharmaguptaka still has an intact bhikkhunī ordination lineage, and the Theravāda bhikkhunī ordination lineage has been reinstated.

dhammabum wrote:Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes mention that the Buddha didn't hand down a mechanism in which to revive the Sangha if it ever died, such as the Bhikkhuni Sangha. What structural constraints described in the Vinaya prevents its revival?

According to Ven. Bodhi here, there isn't any clear prohibition preventing it:

Further, if we pay close attention to the wording of the Vinaya passage concerned with bhikkhunī ordination, we would notice that the text does not lock this rite into a fixed and immutable form sealed with inviolable imperatives: "You must do it in this way and never in any other way." In fact, grammatically, the Pāli passage uses, not the imperious imperative, but the gentler gerundive or optative participle, "it should be done thus." But grammar aside, the text is simply describing the normal and most natural way to conduct the ordination when all the normal requisite conditions are at hand. There is nothing in the text itself, or elsewhere in the Pāli Vinaya, that lays down a rule stating categorically that, should the Bhikkhunī Sangha become extinct, the bhikkhus are prohibited from falling back on the original allowance the Buddha gave them to ordain bhikkhunīs and confer upasampadā on their own to resuscitate the Bhikkhunī Sangha.

To me this seems to be the crucial point: Only if there were such a clear prohibition would we be entitled to say that the bhikkhus are overstepping the bounds of legitimacy by conducting such an ordination. In the absence of such a decree in the text of the Vinaya Piṭaka and its commentaries, the judgment that an ordination by bhikkhus is in violation of the Vinaya is only an interpretation.

lyndon taylor wrote:I don't know for sure is whether they were ordained in Mahayana or Therevada tradition....

Just to clarify: The Mahāyāna isn't an ordination lineage. There are three extant ordination lineages: the Theravāda, the Dharmaguptaka, and the Mūlasarvāstivāda, all of which have descended from the ancient Sthaviras of the second council, and are therefore Sthaviravāda. Of these three, the Dharmaguptaka still has an intact bhikkhunī ordination lineage, and the Theravāda bhikkhunī ordination lineage has been reinstated.

My mistake, what I meant to say is I don't know if the nuns were trained in a Mahayana or Therevada tradition, and I know that the lunpo of the monastery, while primarily catering to Therevada members, accepted people from all Buddhist faiths, not just Therevada, I have a vague recollection that one of the nuns was refered to as anila, which would imply Tibetan?? background. The point is even if the nuns started out in a Mahayana tradition, they were being allowed to live at a primarily Therevada temple in 1990, which is kind of ground breaking. I do remember being told that the Lunpo(leader) was being quite liberal to allow nuns at the temple.

18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

It is not an easy Either/Or reply that you get from P.A. Payutto. He is very carefully reviewing all the reasons for establishing the various Vinaya rules and the historical developments during the Buddha's lifetime, but he says that it is not up to him to make some final decision on this point now.

I also have no issue too with bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravada lineage that was established by the Buddha if there's solid & valid legitimate grounds. However, the original lineage is no more in existence according to the history in Theravada Buddhism. I also find that the dharmagupta is more of a Mahayana or other lineages than Theravada. Also, was it the Buddha's intention to establish a Bhikkhuni Order? If so, why did he object to his aunt's request three times resoundingly? He would have told Ven. Ananda that it was his intention & there was no need for garudhamma to be imposed in the order. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can revive an extinct lineage. An example is dinosaurs are extinct after many thousands of years in existence. Can then dinosours be revived? Buddha said everything exists, become & die out. Pls ignore, if what I said here is wrong due to my own interpretation or view & my lack of knowledge on this issue. Be calm..

now realm wrote:An example is dinosaurs are extinct after many thousands of years in existence. Can then dinosours be revived?

well that analogy shows that you are confusing a lineage with a living being. As far as I know women didn't die out a millenia ago. Plus there is no such thing like a mahayana lineage as been posted above. So there is nothing that died out, it apparently is still there.

I'm pro ordination of nuns, absolutely. But I see difficulties in the acceptance and that is an even more important topic than certain regulations. But to make acceptance happen, especially in the "classical" buddhist countries the procedures should not lack a percent of legitimacy. It is obvious that many scholars that are respected and knowledgeable still have disagreements about this.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

now realm wrote:I also have no issue too with bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravada lineage that was established by the Buddha if there's solid & valid legitimate grounds. However, the original lineage is no more in existence according to the history in Theravada Buddhism. I also find that the dharmagupta is more of a Mahayana or other lineages than Theravada. Also, was it the Buddha's intention to establish a Bhikkhuni Order? If so, why did he object to his aunt's request three times resoundingly? He would have told Ven. Ananda that it was his intention & there was no need for garudhamma to be imposed in the order. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can revive an extinct lineage. An example is dinosaurs are extinct after many thousands of years in existence. Can then dinosours be revived? Buddha said everything exists, become & die out. Pls ignore, if what I said here is wrong due to my own interpretation or view & my lack of knowledge on this issue. Be calm..

There is something perverse in the logic of using the rules of the order to cause its own extinction. Yes the Buddha established the bhikkhuni order. We do not know for certain why the Buddha declined initially. Only he knows that. But we know that the Buddha cannot be persuaded to do something against his own judgement. This has not happened anywhere in the suttas. Elsewhere in the Mahaparinibbana sutta, the Buddha proclaimed his intention to establish the four fold sangha and to see it flourish. The anology of the dinosaur makes no sense. A light that has been switched off can be switched on again. Impermanence works both ways, Things that exist may cease. Things that do not exist may come to be.