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Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

The problem is, unlike someone like Dunleavy, whose job it is to shoot,

If that is his job then we are in a world of trouble - because he isn't a shooter. Granger and Murphy are much better shooters - Dunleavy is a multi-diminsional player - as evidence by his 13 rebounds and 7 assists. When was the last time we have a shooting guard/small forward get 13 rebounds. - never

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

I did stop to enjoy Jeff's flagrant foul on Jackson (is that the first time he's ever put a body on someone? Still, I liked it) and Armstrong's block.

Gotta find something positive, and I certainly enjoyed both of those plays.

Every six to eight games, Jackson can shoot with the best of them. The problem is that he keeps trying the other five to seven games.

For the portion of the game that I watched at regular speed, Quinn made me laugh. It was funny to me how every time Jackson got the ball Quinn was encouraging the team to make him put the ball on the floor. However, for as turnover prone as he is, we didn't force him into mistakes that he normally makes.

Oh well, glad to see those guy put up big "individual" performances. The Pacers were flat as a pancake last night but are playing better team ball than they were before the trade. Good riddance.

PS - Not having Baron Davis in *that* particular game was a big boost for the Warriors. Not only did Jackson and Harrington get the ball early and often, but Tinsley - with Granger, Murphy, and Dunleavy MIA in the first quarter, got suckered into selfish play.

PPS - The revamped Pacers are really missing Marquis Daniels.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

If that is his job then we are in a world of trouble - because he isn't a shooter. Granger and Murphy are much better shooters - Dunleavy is a multi-diminsional player - as evidence by his 13 rebounds and 7 assists. When was the last time we have a shooting guard/small forward get 13 rebounds. - never

Well, I won't belabor this too much, but I'm a bit reluctant to pre-judge his shooting ability given that he still seems to lack confidence and mojo, but I'm personally expecting his shooting to improve. He's got a lot of work to do to sort through all the bad experiences he had at GSW, methinks. I remember him back @ Duke though, and this kid can definitely play.

He's picking up 13 boards last night though b/c Murphy was scared poop-less that someone was going to jack his nose again. Not the attitude we'd want a board-hound to have.. heh.

The point I was trying to make though, was that if the Pacers are going to run their offense through the PG, the PG needs to understand that they can't end up taking a quarter of the shots. That's the primary job of the other four players on the court. He should be taking no more than 15-20% of the shots.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think that is a solvable problem. When Tinsley keeps around 15-20% total team shot percentage, .500+ night games for him will be gravy, and we can give kids like Granger and Diogu a chance to develop their offensive game.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

Just getting rid of Jackson and Saras made our team better, long-term. But we do need Murphy and Dunleavy to show up in the first half if we want our team to be improved *this season*.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

I know I read somewhere that Al Harrington had a super bowl party here in Indiana and you have to believe that JO at least was their if not other Pacers players and were just dragging because of late night celebrating the Colts win. It just seems too coincidental that the night after the Super Bowl JO misses a practice cause of a "bruised knee" and misses the morning shootaround only to start the game and not look hampered one bit during the game? You watch we'll come out and look fantastic this next game to tell ya the truth I don't even know who we're playing next although I believe it's a western team my memory is failing me at the moment.

As far as whether or not i'm a Colts fan or a Pacer fan I've enjoyed both teams pretty equally I would imagine, I have always watched the pacers games during the week and the Colts on sundays and pretty much have kept that up since about 95'ish even flipping back and forth on some occasions where the Pacers and Colts games were on at the same time.

I'm only 22 but It kills me that the city won't support the Pacers like they do the Colts, I know they have done some things recently that really have made it hard for them to be as big of a fan as they were when Reggie was around.
It was pretty pathetic I went to the rally at the Dome in Indianapolis for the Colts had a great time and said out loud "well that was fun now I'm going over to Conseco to watch our pacers play, any of you guys around here going to the game? " and some of the response I got just made me shake my head the ones I recall were "who are the pacers?" "why would you wanna go watch those bums" "who cares about the pacers? go colts!!" and that's about all I could stand and quickly made my way out of the dome and just felt dejected and in disbelief that they could say those kinds of things about the Pacers.

The one thing I always liked about the Pacers was every year it seems like people count them out but they always find a way to pull through. It wasn't until the 61 win season that we were actually favored to win the championship but even then I still recall most of the "experts" saying the pistons were going to beat us to win the championship. The Colts on the other hand who have been favored most every year (besides this one) and always lost the games they "should have won" while pacers were beating people when they "should have lost". I don't know, but if Pacers fans are being degraded and treated as second class citizens I don't mind it I've always cheered harder for the underdog.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

AB-SO-LUTELY. We've missed him badly. I think he's the guy you want to go to during those offensive lulls we enevitably run into. He's really our only creator on offense. He's good at getting into the paint, and that's great because he also happens to be good at hitting shots in the paint, as awkward or weird as they may look.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

I didn't see much of the game last night so I'm not commenting on that, but Tinsley has played at an all star level the past 5 games or so.
Relax

You mean he's been putting up All-Star numbers? He has not been playing at an All-Star level, at all.

This is a warning; I've really been nit-picking at Tinsley lately.

The only difference between the past three games and the rest of the season is that Tinsley has been hitting shots. Other than that, the way he's affected his teammates negates his hot shooting streak. We have very uneven ball distribution and allow too much dribble penetration, both of which are Tinsley's fault and one lowers our 1st quarter points while the other raises our opponents 1st quarter points. Jermaine O'Neal shouldn't be in the position to be the leading shot-blocker.

Oh, and for the season, Tinsley is still ranked #317th in FG%, though he ranks in the top 50 in FGA. And I'm not sure why his poor play and refusal to pass to certain teammates isn't obvious to everyone.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

I started noticing this about three games ago. You remember when the trade first occured? Dunleavy & Murphy were in constan motion moving from one side to the other? (mostly Dun) Remember how we had great ball movement leading to good shots?

That all has pretty much gone away because now the new guys have learned the one page play book that we have. Oh it may be complicated & maybe we don't hit the right spots on the floor but I assure the play book still says one thing.

Get the ball in the post & everybody else go stand on the opposite side for a clear out, assuming the p.g. does not have a shot he does not like (tonight there was no such thing).

The motion has slowed way down & we've gone back to the worlds most boring & predictable offense.

I only was able to catch this game...but I saw that too. Reading the Post-Game threads before this game..........I have noticed the increase in scoring and attempts by Tinsley....but haven't noticed if anyone has mentioned the lack of ball-movement compared to our initial start after the trade.

Although most of you will have to comment ( since you have actually watched the game ), I wouldn't be surprised if there is a connection between the increase in FGA by Tinsley and what appears to be a lack of ball movement by the team ( as a whole ).

On a related note.....I don't know what was the real cause for this.....but there were several plays where all I saw was 1 player anywhere near the paint ( usually JONeal or maybe Foster ) and the rest of the team was hovering and literally standing outside the perimeter. Either the Warriors were effectively shutting us out of the paint or there was simply no effort on our part....but its like we just reverted to the old team where we stood around waiting for JONeal to do something.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

Although most of you will have to comment ( since you have actually watched the game ), I wouldn't be surprised if there is a connection between the increase in FGA by Tinsley and what appears to be a lack of ball movement by the team ( as a whole ).

Even when he isn't shooting he's only passing to Jermaine and Troy. Other than the Memphis game, Dunleavy is averaging under 2 passes from Tinsley per 1st quarter and Granger is barely over 2. I didn't take stats for the Memphis game, but he certainly passed it around more.

When Tinsley is in the game there is an average of 1.5 passes per possession and when he isn't the average is over 2.5 passes per possession. I think this is the most telling stat.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

I agree completely with the assessment of Tinsley and the offense in general. It's sickening. And it's on Rick's head for either implementing it or not dealing with it if it's Tinsley's fault. The only thing worse than being a bad team is being a boring bad team. That's what we were last night. Bad and very boring.

It's funny how all the blame falls on Rick's shoulders, to me atleast. You didn't say that both need to be gone, just that it's on Rick's head.

AGAIN I ask, where the ****** is player responsiblity? Tinsley gets this pass like he's a freaking 8y/o little kid and his hand needs to be held and told who to pass to, and when to pass it. He's almost 30 years old, and he needs a coach to remind him that he needs to pass to the other 3 members of the team on the floor?

Sorry, but that's just laughable. I'm firmly in the camp, that it doesn't matter what Rick tells Jamaal, he'll do his own thing no matter what. I also firmly believe, if Rick takes Jamaal out than we won't see Jamaal play for a ten game stretch because he'll have "sinuspoutis" and sit there until DA looses his legs and the Ps start to tank, only to come back and act like he's the savior.

Yes, Rick does need to nip it, but Jamaal is 65% of the problem to Rick's 35%.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

Just wanted to throw a couple thoughts out there.

First, I have a hard time believing Tinsley is calling his own number all the time. I think Carlisle is encouraging it, or at least condoning it. Which drives me crazy. Also, Armstrong has said he's encouraging Tinsley to shoot more often. Argh.

Second, we certainly call plays for guys not named Jermaine O'Neal or Jamaal Tinsley. Carlisle keeps calling plays for Dunleavy. I don't know what possesses him to do this, but he does.

Our team is better than it was. But I still want to see another move before I believe we can do anything this year.

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Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

Who is supposed to shoot? I mean, obviously, the answer is Danny Granger, but the Pacers management is way too conservative with him. They need to tell him to shoot more, to take over games. They don't, he doesn't, so who else would you rather see take shots last night?

After the middle of the second quarter, Tinsley shot well, whether you choose to believe it or not. The rest of the game he went 8 for 17.

Would you rather see Dunleavy continue to shoot airballs? Or JO continue to brick? Again, other than Granger, Tinsley was pretty much the only option. He did what he had to do. He's had some terrible games this season (talking about shot selection), but this wasn't one of them, in my opinion.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

This is my biggest damper on the new look Pacers. If Jamaal is only going to pass the ball to his homiez, then we are in big trouble. We ARE in big trouble. I am so hopeful again for this team, but as long as it's led by Jamaal Iverson, I can't bring myself TOTALLY back into the sunshine.

Ever since the loss in Detroit...Tinsley has averaged 16 FGA a game ( 14 FGA if we don't count his 24 FGA yesterday ) where we ended up winning 3 out of 5 games.

Don't misread this as a "Tinsley took alot of shots in the previous games and no one complained about him then...why complain now" question...and I guess this question is more to the rest of the group that posted concerns about Tinsley becoming Jamaal Iverson....but what has been the difference with this loss...where he dominated the ball, took 24 FGA and dished out 10 Assists....and the previous 4 games where he averaged 8 Assists ( other then the additional 8 FGA he took )?

Was Tinsley simply not looking for someone else other then JONeal to pass the ball to ( or was no one else simply open )?

Did he lose confidence in Murphy and Dunleavy who have been shooting poorly lately?

or

Is the lack of ball-movement a result of Tinsley dominating the ball and simply going with option A ( look for JONeal ) and option B ( if JONeal isn't open...take a shot )?

One more coincidence.....and I think this is something important to note.....but Tinsley's increased role in the offense ( basically taking 3 to 5 more FGA a game above his average 11 FGA and becoming a 1st/2nd scoring option ) not only corresponds with Murphy's recent nose injury ( and therefore his decreased role on offense where he is averaging about 4 FGA over the last 5 games )...but with Marquis being out of the lineup.

I really wonder hope that Marquis comes back soon.....cuz I liked what we saw from the team when we weren't forced to play BOTH Tinsley and Armstrong on the floor at the same time.

Are those really his stats? Thats incredible. I knew he had played well, but I don't think there is anyway we can justify ripping on Tins especially for one game. The Warriors played what might be their best game of the season. Don't read too much into it.

Who is supposed to shoot? I mean, obviously, the answer is Danny Granger, but the Pacers management is way too conservative with him. They need to tell him to shoot more, to take over games. They don't, he doesn't, so who else would you rather see take shots last night?

After the middle of the second quarter, Tinsley shot well, whether you choose to believe it or not. The rest of the game he went 8 for 17.

Would you rather see Dunleavy continue to shoot airballs? Or JO continue to brick? Again, other than Granger, Tinsley was pretty much the only option. He did what he had to do. He's had some terrible games this season (talking about shot selection), but this wasn't one of them, in my opinion.

Our backup PG who is supposed to be the mature leader goes 3/10 and the fact that you are the first one to mention it sickens me. The fact some of you will crucify Tins for his shooting last night and let a 3/10 night from DA slip is atrocius. I don't care if he is getting effort. DA should only shoot more than 5 times in a game if he has made the previous 4. Don't even get me started on Dun, the dude couldn't hit the broadside of the barn if he wanted to. I would much rather have Quis start when he returns.

Regardless though it was one game. We have still won 6 of our past 8 games. There is hardly any reason to be freaking about this. Its still the eastern conference and this is maybe the worst the east has been in the past 5 years. We are still competitive.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

Our backup PG who is supposed to be the mature leader goes 3/10 and the fact that you are the first one to mention it sickens me. The fact some of you will crucify Tins for his shooting last night and let a 3/10 night from DA slip is atrocius. I don't care if he is getting effort. DA should only shoot more than 5 times in a game if he has made the previous 4. Don't even get me started on Dun, the dude couldn't hit the broadside of the barn if he wanted to. I would much rather have Quis start when he returns.

Regardless though it was one game. We have still won 6 of our past 8 games. There is hardly any reason to be freaking about this. Its still the eastern conference and this is maybe the worst the east has been in the past 5 years. We are still competitive.

we were also down by around 15-17 the entire game. so taking ten shots doesn't bother me a bit. its not like because he took those shots we lost the game. no one was hitting shots and everyone was unenergetic. backup or not, he's also moving the ball, playing solid defense ... so if a guy is doing other things when not hitting shots, I'll live with it. thats why im not going to complain like i did about SJax or Al... because they both would shoot and not much else, regardless of accuracy.

i think the pacers are definitely missing quis. i'm not sure ultimately where he should go in the lineup (starting or 6th). i think when he gets back, we need to play around with a DANIELS, DUNLEAVY, GRANGER, O'NEAL, MURPHY/FOSTER lineup to see how well it functions as a unit. if we see some positive development from that combo and hopefully mcleod, i think we need to trade tinsley asap. the reason is that with his contract and injury history, i think this is the highest his value will be.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

AB-SO-LUTELY. We've missed him badly. I think he's the guy you want to go to during those offensive lulls we enevitably run into. He's really our only creator on offense. He's good at getting into the paint, and that's great because he also happens to be good at hitting shots in the paint, as awkward or weird as they may look.

Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

Even when he isn't shooting he's only passing to Jermaine and Troy. Other than the Memphis game, Dunleavy is averaging under 2 passes from Tinsley per 1st quarter and Granger is barely over 2. I didn't take stats for the Memphis game, but he certainly passed it around more.

Dunleavy made 4 shots last night and Jamaal assisted 3 of them. He missed 11 shots. How many of those came from Jamaal?