Playing devil's advocate, seems to me having a story based on lore in the Appendices is the safest bet as far as adaptation goes. You have the outline for framework but within that lots of room to maneuver. Unlike adapting a fully fleshed story such as LoTR or TH I think it'll have a much better chance at being good, since there's less screen to book comparisons.

Playing devil's advocate, seems to me having a story based on lore in the Appendices is the safest bet as far as adaptation goes. You have the outline for framework but within that lots of room to maneuver. Unlike adapting a fully fleshed story such as LoTR or TH I think it'll have a much better chance at being good, since there's less screen to book comparisons.

Possibly. I wonder though, how much they'll feel bound to stick with known characters in the interest of capturing the attention of the movie-goers.

Amazon isn’t planning a conventional adaptation of “Lord of the Rings” along the lines of Jackson’s movies. Instead Amazon has declared it will make a “Lord of the Rings” prequel with new plot material.

Sounds pretty good to me in the fact it will not be a clone of the PJ fanfic crap.

... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The media is littered with sequels and 'adaptations' which are original works by people who enjoyed the source. The current crop of Star Wars films; the MCU; the various 'modern Sherlock Holmes' series; every Star Trek since DS9.

None of them represent what the creator would have written: rather, they take us on a visit to that world as visualised by a new writer. The same thing applies here: it won't be Tolkien - but nothing except the books ever will be (unless Christopher reveals that his father penned a secret movie script before he died).

I think I would rather have a good 'new tale of Middle-earth' series than a bad or even mediocre direct adaptation. No, it won't give us the scenes we love - we won't get to see a proper rendition of Frodo's stand at the Fords of Bruinen, or Gandalf's confrontation with the Witch-King (side-note: apparently my favourite scenes all involve defiant people on horseback, that's kinda weird) - but, to paraphrase Sam: they can take us to see Elves, Mr. Frodo. Elves!

I will gladly let them have the Adventures of Young Strider Meeting Everyone With a Name, if they will let me spend an hour in Lothlorien.

... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The media is littered with sequels and 'adaptations' which are original works by people who enjoyed the source. The current crop of Star Wars films; the MCU; the various 'modern Sherlock Holmes' series; every Star Trek since DS9.

Weel... not all of us consider your examples to be necessarily good things either, Huey.

Quote:

None of them represent what the creator would have written: rather, they take us on a visit to that world as visualised by a new writer. The same thing applies here: it won't be Tolkien - but nothing except the books ever will be (unless Christopher reveals that his father penned a secret movie script before he died).

I think I would rather have a good 'new tale of Middle-earth' series than a bad or even mediocre direct adaptation. No, it won't give us the scenes we love - we won't get to see a proper rendition of Frodo's stand at the Fords of Bruinen, or Gandalf's confrontation with the Witch-King (side-note: apparently my favourite scenes all involve defiant people on horseback, that's kinda weird) - but, to paraphrase Sam: they can take us to see Elves, Mr. Frodo. Elves!

I will gladly let them have the Adventures of Young Strider Meeting Everyone With a Name, if they will let me spend an hour in Lothlorien.

hS

But how *likely* is The Adventures of Young Strider Meeting Everyone With A Name to be actually good? As opposed to an orgy of (possibly enjoyable) fan-service?

The deal Amazon landed with the estate gives it access to nearly all of the material in the Middle Earth saga (although not 100% of it).

??? I'm going to assume this is just plain wrong, as Hobbit+LotR is nothing like 'nearly all', and I still don't believe the Estate would hand over the Silm+UT. I suppose it's possible CoH, B&L, and FoG could be included, as they're 'standalone' books... but I still don't think so.

The rumours I've seen are that they've approved 5 seasons (risky!), with the first probably being Young Aragorn. I think it's likely that the other seasons will follow the first, chronologically, which means... well, what are the options?

-Adventures of the Old Took. Obviously a bit out of its timeline, but viable, and a hilarious notion.
-Adventures of Tom Bombadil. ^_^
-Adventures of Balin in Moria. A bit of a downer.
-Adventures of Not-So-Young Legolas (And Tauriel). Time to reuse those Hobbit movie sets!
-Adventures of Evil Saruman. C'mon, we could definitely have a season of Saruman's fall into darkness. (Again, serious timeline issues, but this is Movie-earth.)
-Adventures of Young Imrahil. If Young Aragorn doesn't cover the Corsairs, then this Dol Amroth-centric series will.
-Adventures of Young(??) Galadriel. Who wants to stay in the woods when you can go be shiny at people?
-Adventures of Young Theoden. Horses! ... more horses!
-Adventures of Young Talion. Because what we really need is Mordor the Green and Pleasant Land, right? ... right?!
-Adventures of The War In The North. I suppose we should pay lip service to the whole plot of the books, yeah? In which case...
-Adventures in Scouring the Shire. Hey, PJ left it out, so we get to put it in.

And, finally...

-Adventures in Gardening. Just a whole season of Master Samwise peacefully tending his garden, looking after his kids, and being the best dang mayor the Shire has ever had.

Regarding the young Aragorn point-the appendices do give some material to work with.

My attitude towards this is cautious neutrality-if it turns out to be good and faithful both the lore and spirit of the work then I will be pleased. If its mediocre then well at least it wasn't terrible, if its terrible well then I will be unhappy but unsurprised.

I was thinking about this thread the other day. Assuming that this series doesn't become a cesspool of intersectional politics, I'd genuinely like to see all original characters and storylines, with the known Tolkien characters in the background or in cameo appearances.

The reason for this is because we already know the fates of the existing characters, which takes some of the adventure out of the story.

Example: Aragorn is in a cliffhanger ending. Well, it's not really a cliffhanger because we know that, no matter what, Aragorn will survive to appear later in Rivendell and save Middle Earth afterward.

__________________Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness.

Example: Aragorn is in a cliffhanger ending. Well, it's not really a cliffhanger because we know that, no matter what, Aragorn will survive to appear later in Rivendell and save Middle Earth afterward.

How about Aragorn's younger, and decidedly not as smart, missing brother Bewilderon? Lost in the woods as a youth (because he's unable to get his ranger badge as an Elf Scout), he gets raised by an irascible but loveable family of Orcs who, try as they may, just can't get Bewilderon to assimilate into Orkish society. Much humor and confusion ensues as Bewilderon and Aragorn's paths keep crossing throughout Middle-earth.

How about Aragorn's younger, and decidedly not as smart, missing brother Bewilderon? Lost in the woods as a youth (because he's unable to get his ranger badge as an Elf Scout), he gets raised by an irascible but loveable family of Orcs who, try as they may, just can't get Bewilderon to assimilate into Orkish society. Much humor and confusion ensues as Bewilderon and Aragorn's paths keep crossing throughout Middle-earth.

Who eventually turns to evil out of jealousy of the "perfect" Aragorn, and ends up becoming the Mouth of Sauron! They ought to hire me as a writer.

Nah, the real twist will come (at the end of season three or four) when Aragorn is killed and Evilagorn takes his place as part of some long con to infiltrate Lórien--but it turns out that Arwen is there and he falls as head-over-heels as his twin did and he commits to BEING Aragorn thenceforth and was actually the Strider that we come to know in The Lord of the Rings all along--the pipeweed (such an unelvish habit) is the only indicator left.

Nah, the real twist will come (at the end of season three or four) when Aragorn is killed and Evilagorn takes his place as part of some long con to infiltrate Lórien--but it turns out that Arwen is there and he falls as head-over-heels as his twin did and he commits to BEING Aragorn thenceforth and was actually the Strider that we come to know in The Lord of the Rings all along--the pipeweed (such an unelvish habit) is the only indicator left.

However, I then asked myself this question: 'Should you be giving certain people bad ideas?'

It is a difficult balance, but can be done. Sounds like they're trying to go with a "faithful fan-fiction" approach. Not too dissimilar from our RPG structure on the 'Downs. I was never very involved in the role-playing forums here, but I always appreciated the structure to keep it grounded in Tolkien and Middle-earth, and not stray into the Star Wars realm of fan-fiction.

We could only guess at this point...but maybe "completely original" in terms of characters and plot, but a "faithful adaptation" in terms of setting, background and overall vision (in what leads up to Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings").

It can be successful and funny that essentially the Lord of the Rings isn't so much a black and white battle between good vs. evil. It's more about the battle between Hope and Despair. "Hope" in the even the very wise can not predict all ends, there's always a "Fool's Hope." Despair in "there is no hope, I know and can predict what the end is going to be." For me, when I think of the Hollywood business, despair has won. I know we're going to get the same recycled, uninspiring, dumbed down attempts to be "original" and appeal to the masses.

__________________
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

To be pedantic, I don't think the orocarni were that close. They should be further in the east.

I agree, but then again they're not necessarily meant to be the Orocarni. They could just be an Eastern mountain chain someone made up to add something to the map. For all we know, whoever added them to the map has no idea what an "Orocarni" even is.

Someone on Reddit (who amusingly refers to it as "That stupid mountain range") claims that this non-Tolkien addition to the map predates this Amazon series and possibly appears in the films too. I'm curious as to where it originated.

UPDATE: Maybe it originates from the "official" (ie film-official) maps made for the Hobbit films, e.g. this. I wonder why on earth anyone felt the need to add a non-canonical element to the maps for that. Maybe at some point in the film script "Eastern Dwarves" were going to be mentioned or something, along with the kitchen sink presumably. However, the Reddit person claims (in a rather vehement discourse in another thread) that they pre-date even the Lord of the Rings films, although they don't give any evidence for that.

If it is meant to be the Orocarni, presumably the coast wouldn't be far away and Rhûn as a whole would be tiny. In my opinion, Rhûn should be huge: far, far larger than the Middle-earth we see, like comparing Europe and Asia.

__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.

UPDATE: Maybe it originates from the "official" (ie film-official) maps made for the Hobbit films, e.g. this. I wonder why on earth anyone felt the need to add a non-canonical element to the maps for that. Maybe at some point in the film script "Eastern Dwarves" were going to be mentioned or something, along with the kitchen sink presumably. However, the Reddit person claims (in a rather vehement discourse in another thread) that they pre-date even the Lord of the Rings films, although they don't give any evidence for that.

Someone else on the Reddit thread links to the map from the Fellowship movie, which also features them. Neither movie map shows the weirdly quartered forest, though; that seems original to Amazon (and to my mind confirms that they're intending to go there).

Those rivers coming east off the Sea of Rhun aren't on the Tolkien maps either; they seem to originate from the old Middle-earth Role-Playing game (MERP). This map (1997) shows them, for instance, though I can't find any maps around that date that extend further east. (This version from 1982 doesn't show the rivers or the mountains.)

Interestingly, overlaying either Ambarkanta map IV or V onto my map matching Beleriand to Himling-Fuin-Morwen (you can line up the Blue Mountains and the shore of Beleriand easily, and the endpoint of the March lines up with the Bay of Balar nicely) puts the Orocarni anywhere between the eastern edge of Mirkwood, and the Misty Mountains themselves. It's pretty clear that Tolkien originally thought of his world as a lot smaller, and that the Misty Mountains and the lands around them were a much later addition.

Someone on the Reddit thread has pointed out that the compass is labelled really weirdly: instead of N-E-S-W, it reads D-Th-Nd/Ng-Z/Nj (depending on which version of the Cirth you look at; it can't be Hobbit-style runes or Norse runes, because it uses characters those don't have). That doesn't match any of the known Middle-earth languages (and no, it's not a copy of the Thorin's Map compass either), and the Hobbit/FotR maps from the films were labelled in English.

My best guess is that they used a font set up in a strange order - the Shadow of War game did that with their Tengwar, and people are generally pretty bad about checking. But you never know, there might be something to it.

EDIT: Could it be the War of the Elves and Sauron? We've got the Ring poem, and the presence of old names like Calenardhon (assumed Gondorian but could be earlier) and Lindon (almost always Second Age). We've got a big obvious space to the right of 'Eriador', and no similar space to fit 'Arthedain' (if they were doing the Fall of Arnor). And it would make a good story, in the Game of Thrones way: Celebrimbor delving into Forbidden Arts with Satanic help, Numenor, if not going full slaver yet, at least utterly disregarding the rights of the local peoples, Lindon forting up and refusing to let anyone in, and Annatar the Bright wandering around stirring up trouble...

(This was suggested to me by someone on another forum, but most of the detail is mine.)

They've said Young Aragorn, second age would require either the Silmarillion, or the writers are delving ever deeper into outright fanfic.

Do we know what they have the rights to? The rumours at the time of the announcement were that Amazon had been negotiating with the Estate, which they shouldn't have to do if they were just using the same rights as New Line did. And with Christopher retired (and retired at a very pointed time), it's not impossible that they've acquired the right to use Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, at least.

As for Young Aragorn: yes, they did indeed. So why are they posting maps featuring Calenardhon and Lindon? The latter could be a mistake; the former would require them to have forgotten about Rohan, which Aragorn will probably actually visit.

As for Young Aragorn: yes, they did indeed. So why are they posting maps featuring Calenardhon and Lindon? The latter could be a mistake; the former would require them to have forgotten about Rohan, which Aragorn will probably actually visit.

I have a possibly-too-cynical-possibly-not suspicion that they might compress the history so drastically that Aragorn is present at the founding of Rohan, which will be presented as having existed for only about sixty years by the time of the War of the Ring, rather than five hundred.

__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.

I have a possibly-too-cynical-possibly-not suspicion that they might compress the history so drastically that Aragorn is present at the founding of Rohan, which will be presented as having existed for only about sixty years by the time of the War of the Ring, rather than five hundred.

... oh stars.

I would love to say this is utterly ridiculous and inconceivable, were it not for the fact that Shadow of Mordor did precisely that with, well, Mordor.

...

Well, we should at least know soon enough what they're playing at with the map.

hS

("Eorl? Nay, Eorl was my father, young Aragorn; he fought alongside your father Isildur in the Last Alliance. I am Theoden, and I will gladly serve at your side, even should an evil wizard o'erthrow my will and make me his puppet...")

Do we know what they have the rights to? The rumours at the time of the announcement were that Amazon had been negotiating with the Estate, which they shouldn't have to do if they were just using the same rights as New Line did. And with Christopher retired (and retired at a very pointed time), it's not impossible that they've acquired the right to use Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, at least.

As for Young Aragorn: yes, they did indeed. So why are they posting maps featuring Calenardhon and Lindon? The latter could be a mistake; the former would require them to have forgotten about Rohan, which Aragorn will probably actually visit.

hS

They have the rights to the Hobbit and LOTR and the appendices. They don't have the right to the Silmarillion or the unfinished tales or the HoME.

As for compressing the history, they must know that's going to enrage the Tolkien fanbase. Shadows of Mordor was popular because of its innovative and dynamic game mechanics, not its story, Amazon won't be able to use that to get away with it here.

As for compressing the history, they must know that's going to enrage the Tolkien fanbase. Shadows of Mordor was popular because of its innovative and dynamic game mechanics, not its story, Amazon won't be able to use that to get away with it here.

I doubt the opinions of "traditional" fans have been much of a factor in the project. They're after the movie fans who only want more of the same.

They have the rights to the Hobbit and LOTR and the appendices. They don't have the right to the Silmarillion or the unfinished tales or the HoME.

Thanks; I didn't realise we'd had confirmation that the bizarre assertion from the news article back when, that '[t]he deal Amazon landed with the estate gives it access to nearly all of the material in the Middle Earth saga (although not 100% of it)', was incorrect. Good to know!

For anyone still thinking about the map, I've just posted a thread over in Books that includes evidence that those eastern mountains are actually Tolkien's own creation, though not necessarily the fabled Orocarni.

I doubt the opinions of "traditional" fans have been much of a factor in the project. They're after the movie fans who only want more of the same.

My question would then be how exactly are they planning on marketing that? The PR speak is going to be glorious in how inane it is, "we respect Tolkien's lore and detail, for creativity sake, we are making creative adaptations of the background material" or something equally PRy and corporate faced.

"Enedhwaith" is interesting; Tolkien Gateway says that the published book used "Enedwaith", without the h, but Tolkien adopted the h in later writings. Christopher used "Enedwaith" in Unfinished Tales.

"Ras Morthil" is notable only because the Druedain lingered there for a long time.

"Belfalas" is very potentially interesting, because of its status as a Numenorean Faithful stronghold.

In a nice touch, the compass on the Twitter version (but not on the browsable map) has been updated with the correct Tengwar labels - Formen, Romen, Hyarmen, Numen.

hS

EDIT: Someone has pointed out that there were 3 days between the first and second maps, and 7 between the second and third. So... expect another one on the 6th March? ~hS

If the show isn't about Aragorn, I wonder what it could possibly be about.

The most obvious possibility, given the Ring Poem, remains the forging of the rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron. So the question is, how much of that is in the appendices? It turns out, quite a bit!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Appendices, cobbled together

The Second Age
These were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth. but the years of the glory of Númenor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain. In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward. and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir.

Later (750) some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and near to the West-gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria. The Noldor were great craftsmen and less unfriendly to the Dwarves than the Sindar; but the friendship that grew up between the people of Durin and the Elven-smiths of Eregion was the closest that there has ever been between the two races. Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor.

1200
Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but
the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent
havens.
c. 1500
The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They
begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

Of [Thrain's] Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven.

c. 1590
The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad, Galadriel and Círdan.

c. 1600
Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor
perceives the designs of Sauron.
1693
War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
1695
Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697
Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond
retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699
Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700
Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701
Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.

The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.

The main things missing seem to be:
-The name of Ost-in-Edhil.
-The details of how exactly the Three were hidden, including Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel.
-Celebrimbor being used as a banner by Sauron.
-The Siege of Imladris, though this is pretty well implied.

Obviously there's a lot of detail around Galadriel which isn't found in the LotR license, but if you stay away from her, you can tell virtually the entire story.

The second possibility, to my mind, remains the Fall of Arnor. The presence of Calenardhon on the map points at this, though Laurelindorenan argues against it. So far as I can recall, the final fall of Arthedain and the breaking of the Line of Kings comes entirely from the Appendices, so no licensing issues there!

It's also possible that the series is about Young Aragorn, but starts with a historical episode, a prologue writ large, showing how all this came about: the fall of Eregion provoked the first involvement of Numenor in the affairs of Middle-earth, while the fall of Arthedain obviously gave us Aragorn's line. Seems like an odd thing to tease, though.

The most obvious possibility, given the Ring Poem, remains the forging of the rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron. So the question is, how much of that is in the appendices? It turns out, quite a bit!

The main things missing seem to be:
-The name of Ost-in-Edhil.
-The details of how exactly the Three were hidden, including Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel.
-Celebrimbor being used as a banner by Sauron.
-The Siege of Imladris, though this is pretty well implied.

Obviously there's a lot of detail around Galadriel which isn't found in the LotR license, but if you stay away from her, you can tell virtually the entire story.

The second possibility, to my mind, remains the Fall of Arnor. The presence of Calenardhon on the map points at this, though Laurelindorenan argues against it. So far as I can recall, the final fall of Arthedain and the breaking of the Line of Kings comes entirely from the Appendices, so no licensing issues there!

It's also possible that the series is about Young Aragorn, but starts with a historical episode, a prologue writ large, showing how all this came about: the fall of Eregion provoked the first involvement of Numenor in the affairs of Middle-earth, while the fall of Arthedain obviously gave us Aragorn's line. Seems like an odd thing to tease, though.

hS

I guess you could do that and tie it into the LOTR movie prologue. Maybe get Cate Blanchett to narrate again.

The main things missing seem to be:
-The name of Ost-in-Edhil.
-The details of how exactly the Three were hidden, including Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel.-Celebrimbor being used as a banner by Sauron.
-The Siege of Imladris, though this is pretty well implied.