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I am a peacemaker by nature, so I thought we'd all sit down together and try to understand the mind of our fair mods.

Here are some re-occurring questions:

What do the mods think of Outsider's recent actions?

Do the mods agree with banning people with dissenting opinions?

Do some mods disagree with the actions of other mods?

I am in agreement that we don't want atheist hate-speech around here, but how do we distinguish between what is vitriol and what is actual valid questions?

Do you think that by excluding some people, we're sending the wrong message?

How come people who repeatedly attack as fundamentalist Christians other Christians and/or Atheists aren't banned (or are they)?

EDIT: Here's my opinion....I like r/Christianity as a place where Christians can come and talk shop. We get to discuss theology, hermeneutics and social issues that matter to us. Now, we do have many atheist and people from other religions who lurk here. I would say that many of them come in with alternative opinions and are pretty civil. The few that raise hell are annoying, but I don't believe banning anyone is the answer. It tells these people and people who don't even come here that we're a bunch of jerks who don't want to listen to any other opinions.

Secondly, there are plenty of times I have become really angry at people like lajaw or a JW whose name escapes me, but instead of whining to a mod about them, I ignore them. (Novel idea huh?!) I sometimes hope a mod would see that these people are being completely unloving and unreasonable, but alas, they're never banned. Frankly, I don't really want them banned because I believe in free-speech, but I can tell you it's something I've wished would happen.

Jesus welcomed fellowship with the people on the fringes of society. If we start creating a culture of exclusion here, what's that say about us?

Anyway....that's my two cents.

EDIT: Dang....I didn't realize this thread would get so huge, or that it would draw so many atheists. Anyway....welcome everyone!

LAST EDIT: I think on some level, posting this thread was a mistake. I don't want people holding this as a banner of discrimination because that's not the point. My point was supposed to be that we have great mods for the most part and even though some have a very strict view of the policy, we have others who are pretty lenient. My concern was that r/Christianity was starting to lean towards exclusion of people who aren't Christian. I have compassion for both atheists and gays and it troubles me to see when people who come here to understand our mindset are either 1) labeled as a troll or 2) their comments are deleted. If there's anything we should do, it's show them love. I know some Christians might call me a "softy", but I've come to realize that Reddit is not the place anyone is going to be safe from such encounters, no matter how hard we try to protect ourselves. So, let's show that we are the most loving subreddit.

I want to personally thank GunnarMcGrath, lukemcr, silouan, smacfarl and even outsider for having this dialogue with us. I understand as a noob it's not easy trying to control roughly 8k users posting in here. I want you guys to know that I love you and I meant no ill will. I just hope we can use this opportunity to show that Christ, our Lord, is a loving, gracious God.

It seems that outsider is the worst offender. I've seen him frequently adorn himself with his mod badge and threaten people before then deleting all of the comments, including his own threats.

If you look at his user page and click on any posts with the green M next to them, you'll find many of them lead to deleted comments. Now why is this? Does he have something to hide? Why threaten somebody with a moderator badge then delete the comment?

If you're going to warn somebody, threaten them, ban them, scold them or anything else, at the very least, don't delete the comment with the warning, threat or ban in it! Here is an example, and a particularly bad one. That was just pure censorship.

What's worse is that I've seen some other users starting to copy him. I've been accused twice recently of "Pushing an anti-Christian agenda" simply for disagreeing with something. It's getting tiresome. It's becoming difficult to engage in any kind of discussion at all, and let's face it, outsider is just as guilty of many of the things he scolds other people for. I've seen him be condescending, rude, insulting and snarky plenty of times. That's not to mention his complete failure to understand basic logic and reasoning, his inability to comprehend a simple argument, his stubbornness to step back and reevaluate his understanding of something or his repeated uses of strawman arguments, special pleading, trotting out logical fallacies where it is not applicable etc. That is not the kind of example a moderator should be setting.

Non-Christians: You are more than welcome here, and we appreciate the opportunity to have your point of view represented in our discussions

And yet, if non-Christians do share their views, no matter how politely, they risk being threatened with being banned and having their posts deleted from view ... most of this activity is being carried out by outsider, but I have talked with smacfarl and he supports it, and says the other mods are aware of it

Taking replicasex's comments as an example, I'd say that he might have been towing the line of the community policy, but he wasn't attacking Christianity, nor was he trying to be derisive. He was mad because he has been hurt as a gay person by the Christian community. He is hurt by how dismissive we are. Now, instead of saying "You're trying to attack Christianity.", Outsider could have just ignored him and let others who wanted to take on such a topic keep discussing it. I was disappointed that I couldn't dialogue with replicasex anymore because his thread was deleted.

Being generally accepting of gay people does not mean I should be idle while gay people insult Christians. I'm not accepting of karmajacking campaigns and days worth of insults which replicasex/robertbayer did engage in.

It's not a bad quote, and in appropriate contexts "Are Christians living up to Christ's example?" is a completely appropriate topic for this subreddit. In this thread, though, the topic is whether the mods are acting appropriately and this quote comes across as a snarky way of saying that the mods are wrong, without actually adding anything to the discussion. Not every downvote is a kneejerk reaction to disagreement.

Isn't part of this discussion about how christian mods are kicking/threatening to ban people who show any sign of dissension? I believe so. This quote is appropriate for that. It's not aimed at the mods, but at the idea that christians don't act very christ-like.

Possibly, and the thought had crossed my mind that downvotes are for comments not necessarily the comment's context. But it's a good point that michaelshivers raises, that the best way to make your group better is to weed out the negatives within. At least that's how I saw it.

Wow, that discussion you had with outsider really shocked me, I've asked so many christians on this site if they believe God to be male, and every single one of them has told me that they believe God to be genderless... until just now reading what outsider responded to you. moon flower I love you, actually I'm in love with you... I'm assuming you're a girl but even if you're a guy you're my hero, I think the way you handled those conversations with outsider was perfect, obviously you're correct in pointing out that christianity comes in many many versions, but it seems he views this thread as r/evangelicalbornagainchristianity. I was really surprised at the way they treated you because I've never seen you make any comment that could be viewed as offensive or even rude, I mean seriously the comments I've posted on this subreddit have been just plain mean and nasty and I've even admitted to people on this site I have a character defect whereby I enjoy insulting christians on purpose(it's a personal problem that I've been working on with... moderate success so far), I've ranted and raved on this subreddit and actually cursed God numerous times, but I've never been warned once. Maybe people don't take me seriously or just laugh at my foolishness, but I'm just saying that if I were a christian moderator there are so many people I would ban(myself included) before ever bothering you. And I'll just say one more thing: since coming to r/christianity my view of most christians has changed despite the fact that this was not my intention, I've come to realize that there are way more liberal, progressive thinking christians than I thought who are working from within to make their religion much more tolerant and less offensive to the rest of us. I've posted comments to people on this site thinking I would start a fight, just for fun, and see how badly I could insult them before they stopped responding... only to have the opposite happen and all the sudden I'm having an productive discussion with an interesting person. Sometimes I feel like they "christian jedi mind tricked" me or something, but I've had far more positive conversations than I ever thought I would and I've learned alot. I think alot of us come here not because we're christians, but because maybe we really don't fit in perfectly in other threads, I'm an agnostic theist who's into new agey spirituality and meditation so I get laughed out of r/atheist and other subreddits as well, and it seems like your views don't firmly belong in one camp or the other as well, so where are weirdos like me supposed to go? That's why it made a little sad but mostly angry reading the way they treated you, they were obviously furious with you for disagreeing with them. They reminded me of God talking down to... see there I go again with that chip on my shoulder! Anyways keep up the good fight, those guys seemed like the worst kind of intolerant christians that we're fighting against. God is a man... please, God invented the damn universe including gender how could he be a dude...

I had a conversation with someone the other day about a certain mod's activity. I think a lot of the complaints about moderator power would be helped if the mods reacted to community response to a comment (the report button/PMs) rather than actively policing comments for hints of an 'anti-Christian agenda'.

We almost never ban users, partly because it's pointless when someone can just make another account and continue. The very few accounts that have been banned are ones that make it a habit of making repeated hateful comments and posts, incite /r/atheism with links to our discussions in the hopes that the downvote squad will come to the rescue if their opinions happen to be unpopular, and other such nonsense.

Also, there has never been a case of banning that I'm aware of that was not a unanimous choice among the mods.

Can I take it, then, that there is a more complex and full story about the replicasex banning? If so, it would probably set people more at ease if the admins would go ahead and share it, because right now the level of trust certainly seems to be low.

Maybe it's important to note the very distinct difference between banning a user and removing specific comments. Unless I'm way out of the loop, he has not been banned. I can see every one of his removed comments and while I personally would not have removed quite so many, some have definitely been in violation of the policy.

He seems to blame all Christians for his pain, rather than accepting (or hoping) that there may be Christians here who love him regardless of his sexual preference. He rails against the faith in general, insists that many of its tenants are stupid, etc. and not all of that is related to the topic of homosexuality where at least it could be understood. Comments like that aren't going to help us bridge the divide or come to a better mutual understanding, either.

I get being mad when you're persecuted. But directing that anger at strangers who have never done anything to you personally, that's pointless and I don't feel bad about removing such comments as rarely lead to a positive discussion.

If you think that homosexuality is a sin, that it is a defect -- well, that sure as shit ain't love.

The fact that you framed it as "regardless of his sexual preference" tells me you think homosexuality is an obstacle in respecting a human being.

If you think homosexuality is a sin you are saying that it is shameful, that it is not acceptable in society -- you are contributing to the net total of hate out there and it's completely disgraceful not to own up to it.

By the way, one of the more arbitrary deletions had to do with the Babylonian influence on the Genesis myth. Can you explain to me why that was deleted? Surely as Christians you would all strive to have a better understanding of the textual history of your book, right?

I would certainly categorize our sin nature as a defect, but not one that is exclusive to homosexuals, or any other group of people. I'm just as sinful as you are, just as undeserving of the love of God or anyone else. Heck, I don't know you, but I'd be willing to assert that I'm a lot less deserving of love than a lot of non-Christians around here based on the things I've done to other people when I knew better.

I have no problem respecting gay people. If you look back at some of my earliest posts today, you'll see that I defend them, and condemn those who hate them. I have gay friends that I like very much, just like I have friends who engage in premarital sex with women. Their sexual activity does not make it any harder to love or care about them as people. Heck, despite my comments above I was just defending you fairly spiritedly in a discussion among the mods because you are clearly a guy with a good heart who has been through some crappy treatment at the hands of Christians and not our typical antagonistic troll.

I also never said that you should be ashamed of your sexuality. You assumed that my statement that it's sin means a lot more than I believe it to mean. If you don't believe in God, or Jesus Christ, what reason could you possibly have for conforming to the moral code laid out in the Bible? For a Christian to expect a non-Christian to care what things the Bible says are sin is ridiculous, and even more ridiculous to expect such a person to change their behavior accordingly. I certainly didn't work hard to make myself Christ-like and THEN decide to have a relationship with him, that's not how it works.

I'm sorry that you have been treated poorly, by Christians here and elsewhere. But also recognize that you are making a lot of assertions and assumptions about what we say and think with no evidence to support them. You put a lot of words in my mouth that I did not personally say (whether you got them from your own head, or have heard them from others, I don't know, but you didn't get them from me).

As for comment deletions, I have already taken issue with some of them. Asserting that the creation account is a myth could be taken as anti-Christian by some, so I find that one to be less arbitrary than a couple of others. In any case, some of your activity has certainly been in violation of the policy, most notably your multiple posts in /r/atheism complaining about activities here and while I understand your motivation in doing so, that is clear karma jacking and something that is expressly forbidden. Getting the downvote squad in here is a sure fire way to make us mods very wary of all your activity and is probably the reason why more of your comments were deleted than you might have expected.

Believe it or not, if you had posted those same things in this subreddit you probably would have had support, and not just from atheists. Don't you think it's more important to call out the people making the offensive comments than to run to 100,000 people who already think Christians are stupid for a quick circlejerk? Like I said, doing so only puts the whole subreddit on the defensive against you, and that's hardly productive for any sort of rational discourse.

I hope you can consider these points and we can continue with a meaningful discussion.

Have you been systematically degraded by your culture? This is a common trope that comes up but it is nothing more than deflection. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Christians, here and elsewhere, do not treat all sins as equal. I don't know why, but Christians seem intent on singling out homosexuality above almost every other sin (you'd think greed would be rather more important).

So by saying "I'm just as sinful as you" you're really just giving lip-service to the fall -- the reality of the situation is different.

Surely you can understand how harmful an assertion like "I love homosexuals but I think they must change their ways to embrace Christ" are? The whole train of thought, as if gays are suffering from something they need to be saved from, truly enrages me.

If you don't believe in God, or Jesus Christ, what reason could you possibly have for conforming to the moral code laid out in the Bible?

The vast majority of people who live in my country (USA) believe, or at least say they believe, in your book's moral code. It matters a great deal how those words are interpreted.

In any case, some of your activity has certainly been in violation of the policy, most notably your multiple posts in /r/atheism

It's astonishingly invasive how one's post in other subreddits informs how you treat them in this one. I'm glad for the karma I gained, of course, but my goal is to bring to light the hypocrisy of your community policy, and to specifically bring on some heat to outsider, who I feel to be a rogue mod arbitrarily moderating the subreddit. Personally I'd love to see him disciplined.

You assumed that my statement that it's sin means a lot more than I believe it to mean.

Do you not believe that sin hardens the heart against god, or that it degrades his god-given dignity? My assumptions follow a bland interpretation of your religion. You're saying that something isn't shameful but still a sin? Bullshit. That's just getting around using the word, IMO.

Asserting that the creation account is a myth could be taken as anti-Christian by some

Do you believe Genesis to be literal? I say myth in the academic sense, in that it's a powerful society-building story with insight into the human experience. Like any number of other important myths.

Have you been systematically degraded by your culture? This is a common trope that comes up but it is nothing more than deflection. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Christians, here and elsewhere, do not treat all sins as equal. I don't know why, but Christians seem intent on singling out homosexuality above almost every other sin (you'd think greed would be rather more important).

You are absolutely right. As to the reason that homosexuality (and abortion) are hot button topics is because these are the two areas where society is not content to agree to disagree with Christians on subjects of morality. We are expected to ignore our Biblical teaching in favor of society's growing acceptance. Admittedly that's for good enough reason, because they are two issues that are being affected by laws and all that.. obviously they're complicated issues.

Surely you can understand how harmful an assertion like "I love homosexuals but I think they must change their ways to embrace Christ" are? The whole train of thought, as if gays are suffering from something they need to be saved from, truly enrages me.

I hope that wasn't meant as a quote of mine, because I don't remember typing it. =) But obviously I can understand the way you feel if people do say that. Personally it's a topic I have been spending a lot of time thinking about over the past year or so. When I chose to follow Christ, I had no problem admitting that my sins were sins. I was far from overcoming them (and still am regarding some of them), but I was at least willing to agree with the Bible about right and wrong. Can a man come to Christ for salvation while not completely agreeing about what is and is not sin? Can you repent of sins you agree are sins, and want to have a relationship with Jesus, while still participating in some things that you believe are not sinful, despite the opinions of many Christians to the contrary? I think it's possible. Paul wrote that some things are sin based on the conscience: if you believe it's sin to eat meat sacrificed to idols, then it's sin for you, even if it's not for someone else. I can't speak definitively for God's opinion on the matter, but the thing I am sure of is that God has never required a person to rid themselves of sin in order to enter into a relationship with him, because if that were possible we wouldn't need salvation at all.

You're saying that something isn't shameful but still a sin?

Like I said, if you don't believe it's sin, what reason do you have to be ashamed? Why are you using my moral code, one you consider to be flawed, to define how you feel about yourself? Again, I'm sorry that Christians have treated you in a decidedly un-Christian way. I've seen a lot of that in my life and the only thing I can do about it is try to be an example to others, and call it out when I see it. I'm far from perfect in many areas but this is one that I do try to make a difference in. It's too bad if I'm unable to convince you that I can love you despite your sin (even if you were straight you'd still have sin). Is there anything I could do to convince you of that?

Your mods should probably just relax and realize that the presence of disparate opinions in this subreddit is a good thing. Argument promotes critical thinking skills and will improve your ability to debate.

It does not offend me when a christian proclaims the existence of god.
It should not offend you when an atheist denies the existence of gods.

It does not offend me when a christian proclaims Christ as the redeemer of all mankind.
It should not offend you when an atheist claims that Christ is a myth.

Your mods should probably just relax and realize that the presence of disparate opinions in this subreddit is a good thing. Argument promotes critical thinking skills and will improve your ability to debate.

That's exactly what they are afraid of. All religion is ultimately a question of faith and thus not defendable in rational debate. If there was proof of any of this it would be fact and atheists like me would simply agree that god exists (I still wouldn't worship god, but that's a totally different discussion). As such, promotion of critical thinking skills is highly undesirable for Christians as it undermines the basic principles of religion: don't think, just believe.

Apparently they are so insecure in their beliefs that any rational argument against it must be silenced as it eats away at it's already shaky foundations.

Apparently they are so insecure in their beliefs that any rational argument against it must be silenced as it eats away at it's already shaky foundations.

Or, completely aware that this is a topic that cannot be proven or disproven, they would like to discuss interesting parts of Christianity without the constant interruption of "your beliefs are wrong".

Analogy time. As a mathematician, I like to read and discuss interesting results in that field without hearing again about a high school student who has proven that 1 = 0, rehashing whether or not 1 is the same as 0.(9), or reading about some junior professor who invented a way to describe division by 0. This has nothing to do with a fear that I can't defend my mathematical knowledge or that I don't want to develop critical thinking skills. It's that I'm not interested in hearing those conversations again, especially when I'm trying to discuss something that's actually interesting.

Likewise, as someone with an interest in Christianity, I would like to be able to discuss the more interesting ideas without constant interruptions. This has nothing to do with whatever my beliefs might be, I also like discussing other religions and fictional books.

The point is, accusing the mods of acting out of a fear of other ideas is disingenuous, particularly when it's done in the name of "rational debate".

they would like to discuss interesting parts of Christianity without the constant interruption of "your beliefs are wrong".

This. Plus I do not necessarily need an atheist opinion on however they view something or would do something because it generally comes with no spiritual reflection, but rather a humanistic centered one. If I wanted the latter I'd post in r/psychology or r/selfhelp or similar subreddits. It's not that it's wrong, it's that it's wrong here.

Or, completely aware that this is a topic that cannot be proven or disproven, they would like to discuss interesting parts of Christianity without the constant interruption of "your beliefs are wrong".

If it cannot be proven or disproven doesn't mean both options are equally likely to be true. In fact, it's so unlikely it can be proven there is simply no point in discussing other points of Christianity if this is not resolved.

To go with your math analogy: if all of mathematics was based on the idea that 1=0, then you might want to prove that first before you spend all your time discussing theorems that are founded on this incorrect assumption, you'd simply be wasting your time.

If it cannot be proven or disproven doesn't mean both options are equally likely to be true. In fact, it's so unlikely it can be proven there is simply no point in discussing other points of Christianity if this is not resolved.

Ah! You have just made the best argument for why we have the policy we do, and why atheists find it hard to participate here under the guidelines we have laid out.

We Christians have MUCH to discuss beyond "does God really exist?" and an atheist cannot reasonably take place in those conversations if he cannot get past that fundamental question. To you, the main point is flawed and therefore the rest of the discussions are pointless. So your only options are to a) point out the perceived flaw, or b) go away and leave us to our silly chats.

We have specifically, repeatedly, and continually asked that our conversations not be interrupted by asserting for the millionth time that our belief is wrong, and by your own admission you have nothing else of value to contribute to such conversations, nor should you want to.

My uncle is a schizophrenic, and it is absolutely useless to try and convince him that the Nazis aren't after him. I can either stipulate his delusions are fact, or I can leave him alone, because trying to get him to take his medicine simply doesn't work.

And yes, I'm aware that I just compared Christianity to schizophrenic delusions. =) I have no problem making such allusions if it helps you understand my point better.

To you, the main point is flawed and therefore the rest of the discussions are pointless.

No, the main point is not flawed, it just not resolved yet. It's an unanswered question that is so fundamental that there there is no point to continue with other discussions until it has been resolved either way. In fact, maybe it should be the only subject allowed in this subreddit.

In something like two and a half hours you went from criticizing /r/Christianity for not allowing open debate to saying the discussion should be limited to what you think is worth discussing. Which is it?

It is not resolved yet for you. That's my point. It's resolved for me and for [most of] the Christians here. If we believe it to be resolved enough for our own satisfaction then shouldn't we be allowed to discuss other things?

Now you're being awfully generous by saying that it's not flawed, just unresolved, more generous than most who argue the point here. They believe that because it is impossible to prove God's existence, we are delusional in ever stipulating the fact. But either way, r/DebateAChristian has been created for that particular topic. Most other discussions here stipulate that God exists, which doesn't necessarily mean that you have to believe that in order to join the topic, just that you have to be willing to get past that question.

But nobody is stopping you from resolving those other ideas. Nobody is preventing you from participating in the discussions you like and forcing you into the discussions you don't like. And if you wanted a forum in which the clear assumption is God and Jesus, then, once again, no one is stopping you from creating that forum. This is r/Christianity not r/Christianityiscorrect.

In fact, it's so unlikely it can be proven there is simply no point in discussing other points of Christianity if this is not resolved.

Provability is orthogonal to whether or not something is interesting or worth discussing. We'll probably never prove who shot Kennedy or what happened on the Mary Celeste, but we can still have worthwhile discussions about those subjects. Even if it's the most likely explanation, shouting "Oswald acted alone!" is out of place in a discussion about whether the CIA had the means to pull it off.

To go with your math analogy: if all of mathematics was based on the idea that 1=0, then you might want to prove that first

If someone tells me they have proven 1=0, I can almost guarantee that the proof takes a square root and drops the ± or contains an implicit division by zero. I'm confident of this because I have seen these proofs enough times to recognize the same problems. I'm not unaware of the idea, and I'm not avoiding it because hearing it again might shake my world view--I've evaluated it and don't think it's worth further consideration. I'm open to new ideas that require me to change my understanding of math, but I'm not willing to listen to the same argument repeatedly on the off chance that this time it will be different. It's a question of spending brainpower where it has the best chance of producing interesting results.

before you spend all your time discussing theorems that are founded on this incorrect assumption, you'd simply be wasting your time.

Entire branches of mathematics are based on asking "What would things be like if...?" and then working out the results. Sometimes this gives us a purely theoretical set of meaningless results, other times it leads to incredibly useful discoveries that show basic assumptions to be wrong.

Finally, I'd like to point out that in the name of rational argument you're suggesting that there shouldn't be a place on reddit for Christians to discuss their faith. I'm going to turn that around and ask, if you support open discussions, what's wrong with /r/Christianity existing for discussing Christianity under the assumption that Christianity is true? Nobody's saying you can't say bad things about Christianity, they're just saying not to rudely say it here because it disrupts more interesting conversations and in all likelihood is something we've heard before.

Most of the time when atheists come in here to make posts like that, they're 16 year olds who just read their first Christopher Hitchens book and think they have some kind of amazing new argument to attack us with. It gets a little tiring.

That said, we have many atheist/agnostic/non-Christian posters who are regular here and make great contributions to discussions without being trolls. The trolls who come for hit-and-run "haha christians are dumb" posts are rarer, but they give everyone else a bad name.

they're 16 year olds who just read their first Christopher Hitchens book and think they have some kind of amazing new argument to attack us with. It gets a little tiring.

First, the presentation of an argument does not constitute an "attack." Secondly, if the fact that such arguments are "tiring" is enough to ban them altogether, you need to decide that censorship is a good thing and be prepared to be censored yourself without any hypocritical complaints about it.

The problem is I personally avoid r/DebateAChristian for this reason. It's not that presenting counter arguments is a problem, but seriously, I don't come her to fight, I come here to discuss. It can be a fine line, but I definitely feel attacked on r/christianity on a regular basis. What's annoying is that these people get really smug, not even that they have offensive or relevant arguments. Again, if I wanted to deal with them, I would hang out in r/DebateAChristian.

I looked through your comment history, and you are calm and well reasoned.. but can you see that some of your comments cause an emotional response?

Things like "Hell is something humanity deserves", and the whole post where you explain where Christianity is the better religion because in Islam and the Sikh faith you have to be a good person to deserve heaven, but in Christianity simply praying to Jesus is enough. And "If you're dancing in a way that is not pleasing to God, it needs to stop". And the part where you say that, biblically, being a homosexual is just as bad as murder, and that homosexuality is a sin.

For atheists (well, me at least) these sorts of ideas are seriously worrying, and makes it really hard to understand each other.

I don't know about "sky wizards," but "space teapots" sounds an awful lot like Russell's Teapot, which is an important argument in philosophical debates about God and there have been lots of moon gods throughout history. If these are the standards you set for an attack, it is no surprise that you find yourself facing so many.

Russell's Teapot, which is an important argument in philosophical debates

No. you are not listening. This forum is not r/debateachristian. It's r/Christianity - by Christians for Christians. If any of us wants to debate we would be in another forum. The whole point that some of the mods/OP is making is that we would rather have threads and posts be generally on topic and that means many of us have moved on beyond debating. If a moderator feels the need to delete whole sections of posts and threads for this reason, I stand entirely behind him.

But if someone (atheist or otherwise) points out that this is a fallacy, that's inappropriate?

The thing is, at the end of nearly every debate, it really boils down to perspective, and whether one holds either a theistic or a naturalistic worldview. These kinds of debates pop up constantly and they go nowhere, with the same assertions being repeated over and over.

I'm not complaining about people attacking me personally. Personally, I'm pretty thick skinned about this sort of thing; it just makes me roll my eyes whenever I see a new post like that. But read my first post, I'm talking about why the mods (outsider specifically) are so proactive in their moderation policy. The point is that they're silly statements that amount to nothing more than poorly thought out anti-Christian diatribes.

Correction : Most atheists who come here are 16 years old with no experience BECAUSE the one with experience left your self imposed echo chamber a long time ago.

Debate has been stifled by the mods and pushed aside to obscure subreddit because it made /r/Christianity look bad (Christians took one side while the rest of Reddit took the other if any of those threads made the front page. being small subreddits, /r/DebateAChristian has less chance to be exposed to the public). Note that those subreddits were created by Christians, so some here don't find atheists to be as obtuse as you pretend.

The reason why most complaints are coming from non-Christians is because there is a glaring contradiction in the policy: it says non-Christians are welcome to share their views, but then if they do share their views, they are threatened with being banned for ''promoting a non-Christian agenda''

So something needs to change of you want to maintain the integrity of this forum: either the policy, to make it clear that non-Christians are not welcome, or to stop threatening and banning them

It's pretty clear what is expected of everyone here. A non-Christian discussing the Christian faith in a respectful manner is always welcome, and I see plenty of these sorts of posts. As smacfarl said, if you believe you are being unfairly treated by a mod in a particular discussion, use the "message the moderators" link and we'll all get the message and someone will address the issue. We regularly discuss specific posts amongst ourselves and decide how to handle things.

That term leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Whereas I might find it perfectly respectful to tell a Christian that I believe that they are suffering from some form of delusion, the recipient of that comment or a moderator would likely disagree.

This is always the problem with censorship: gate-keeping. Who watches? Who watches the watchers?

At present, you don't really have community standards for appropriate discussion. You have vague rules to be interpreted by moderators, at least one of which has shown that he\she is incapable of making those judgments fairly.

You can certainly claim that someone is delusional without personally attacking them.

A psychiatrist could do this, for instance. Anyone with a genuine desire to help another person who (he/she feels) holds a delusional belief could call attention to the perceived delusion without it automatically being a personal attack.

If I tell a friend I think he's become an alcoholic and is deluding himself into not seeing it, is that a personal attack?

Thank you for the link, actually I had already checked the policy before making my main post in this discussion, and copied the particular part which I am taking issue with:

Non-Christians: You are more than welcome here, and we appreciate the opportunity to have your point of view represented in our discussions

You say ''A non-Christian discussing the Christian faith in a respectful manner is always welcome'' but this is not the case, I have been constantly harrassed and threatened by outsider just for sharing my views politely

And I have already talked with smacfarl about it; he made it very clear that he fully supports what outsider is doing, and he said that all the mods are aware of it, so there is absolutely no point in messaging the mods since you all support his behaviour

I would complain, too, if I suggested that a faith based on peace, love and understanding should protect those who are discriminated against instead of initiating the discrimination, and in return the followers of that faith decided to delete my comments.

I think the tenants of Christianity are beautiful; that its followers could possibly believe that expressing common-sense views is somehow an attack on their faith is fascinating to me.

I would complain, too, if I suggested that a faith based on peace, love and understanding should protect those who are discriminated against instead of initiating the discrimination, and in return the followers of that faith decided to delete my comments.

I would not delete such comments, personally, unless the attitude in which they were posted were hateful themselves.

I think the tenants of Christianity are beautiful; that its followers could possibly believe that expressing common-sense views is somehow an attack on their faith is fascinating to me.

I don't think you'll find many Christians who don't agree that Christians as a group are flawed human beings, and many professing Christians live lives that are totally opposite of the commands Jesus gave us. This is no big secret, or new development, unfortunately.

this subreddit is meant for Christians to discuss issues regarding their faith

Perhaps you should consider renaming the subreddit. Because it is called "/r/christianity" most people would interpret this to mean "about the religion of Christianity" whereas a name like "/r/christians" or "/r/christianissues" may be interpreted to mean a forum reserved for Christians.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Not everyone who uses common arguments is a troll. Not everyone who criticizes an aspect of christianity is "pushing a non-christian agenda". If we're unable to talk about criticisms, then this subreddit is not really about discussing christianity, it's about whitewashing it.

It is not erring on the side of caution, it is censorship plain and simple.

Non-christian's are either welcome, or they are not. You can't have it both ways. Your policy says one thing, but your actions says another. Rectify one of the two.

this subreddit is meant for Christians to discuss issues regarding their faith, first and foremost

My opinion on this: You don't own this subreddit. You don't pay for it. Your view of what this subreddit should be is no more valuable or legitimate than anyone's. And considering the moderators' history of censorship, your ability to set the rules for dialog should be drastically curtailed in favor of people that won't inject their bias into moderation.

Reddit allows any user to create any subreddit he likes and appoint other moderators as he likes, and set rules as he likes. Reddit bestows "ownership" of its subreddits on the people who create them, and they can enforce their rules as they like. People who don't like those rules are welcome to unsubscribe.

This is not a subreddit for public debate, and the moderators are not required or expected to be impartial in regards to content.

This may come off more brusquely than I mean it, but what do you think subreddits are for?

For me, the whole beauty of the subreddit system is for sorted and refined kinds of discussion. I'm sure that people at r/astronomy wouldn't really appreciate me if I started posting there about how I think astronomy is overrated, or that redditors spend too much time staring at the sky. In fact, I expect the mods to manage that subreddit to their tastes -- and hopefully according to the rules. Considering that it's not explicitly for debate, I should expect that they'd ban people like me.

As someone not intimately familiar with the board but following this discussion along, I am struggling to see the point made by the non-theists here (not in an accusatory way, in a genuine 'I'm curious' way).

You walk into a bar, sit down for a few beers with your friends, start chatting about a story you read in the paper this morning, and you start talking about the implications of the story, debating the points, etc. As it happens, a group of people who have a disdain for that paper decide to join you in the discussion, pull up a chair, and say that the paper is regularly erroneous in its reporting, citing particular examples, noting that the editor has a previous history of such things, and so forth, the group being generally careful not to personally insult you and your friends but insisting that you are wrong in believing this story, and many others from the paper.

Occasionally some of the group will make more disparaging remarks about the subscribers to the paper, and how misguided they are, again not being specific in their insults, but generally giving the impression of believing that anyone who reads the paper is of sub-intellect.

Would you not consider this fairly aggressive behaviour? It's not so much that you have no reason to believe in the paper, perhaps you have a lot of reasons to the contrary, but really you were just wishing to discuss the merits of the story and not get into a lengthy debate about the reputation of its source. Sure, you might want to do that every so often, but when you're sitting down at a pub to a drink with your mates you're hardly in the mood for it, and it's the only decent pub in the area.

That's perhaps a strained analogy, but this is the impression I get from the non-theists on this board, and I don't mean to claim that you're excessively rude, or that the above drama of the moderators is right or wrong, but I can see why this is frustrating for the subreddit's following.

Jesus welcomed fellowship with the people on the fringes of society. If we start creating a culture of exclusion here, what's that say about us?

Imagine that you're a member of a small, 200 member church, and you're participating in a church Bible study with some of your members. Then, in the middle of a great discussion, a large group vastly outnumbering you walks in, listens for 30 seconds, and then they all start shouting at you about how you're wrong and stupid for believing in God. Sure, the church sign outside says "Bible study now! Come on in!" but you didn't mean for this to happen.

This is what used to happen on a daily basis in here. We would like /r/Christianity to be a forum for Christians to interact with each other in a way that is impossible anywhere else on reddit, much like an open Bible study is intended for Christians to meet together and talk. It's not a culture of exclusion to ask non-Christians to be respectful of our discussions (by either participating in a mature manner or, if that is impossible for them, to simply go find something else to do).

I continue to wonder why the atheists so badly want to be heard here. If you wouldn't be comfortable as the sole atheist in a group of Christians discussing their faith, or would find it impossible not to argue with them, why would you do so here? I'm happy to discuss these issues with my friends, but I don't understand the concept of crashing the conversation of strangers with an expressly unwanted dissenting opinion.

exposing myself to other points of view, so that I can change my mind if I find better or more justifiable explanations than the ones I currently hold

encouraging dialogue between the two communities, who can surely be expected to disagree but should at least be able to communicate without talking cross-purposes.

allowing Christians here to see an atheist operating in Christian territory who cares about ethical issues, destroying the bigoted 'atheists have no moral compass' stereotype.

for them to see one who is (I like to think) well-informed on Christian doctrine and issues, but who still rejects the Christian worldview. Not out of unfamiliarity with it, but because it doesn't (I contend) meet the appropriate burden-of-proof. This is to help combat the misunderstanding that atheists are unfamiliar with scripture or interpretation or personal experience or 'inviting Jesus into their heart'. Many people still think people are drawn to atheism out of a desire to 'be their own God'.

Shining a light on the morally dubious nature of aspects of Christianity, regarding its positions on murder, rape, genocide, slavery, and homosexuality - aspects which aside from the last are often swept under the rug. This helps Christians see where they are cherry-picking their morality from some aspects of scripture and ignoring others. This is because when I became an atheist and looked back on scripture, I was astounded at the atrocities that I had implicity defended (Joshua, Amelekites, Vicarious punishment) etc. I feel convicted and deeply ashamed for defending that moral interpretation for most of my life. If I could defend genocides, or just relegate them to some academic curiosity and pick some hallmark New Testament scripture to focus on, then what ethical atrocity couldn't I justify? I don't want anyone to be as complacent as I was about these deeply unethical instructions that were informing the core of my Christian worldview. In the same vein, when the topic arises I want to put up an informed defense of homosexuality and gay marriage in the place where we all know its biggest opponents are, in the Christian community. /r/Christianity is more liberal than many other christian communities, but there are still people here who are gravely mistaken about this issue.

For what it's worth, I think that few who come to /r/Christianity are under the delusions of the atheist stereotypes you mentioned in points 3 and 4. There are plenty of people out in the world who still are, I'm sure, but I don't think you have to worry about it too much here. The only atheist stereotype that is common here is that many of them like to interrupt our conversations, which is unfortunately based on lots and lots of repeated events we've all witnessed. =)

This! I expressly come to this subreddit (r/Christianity) to get Christian feedback and Christian perspective, but atheists think that is necessary that I conform to their ideas and think they need to put their input here or that their ideas are somehow valid with me. No. If I wanted that I would go over and hangout with r/atheism or maybe r/debateaChristian.

Not all of us non-christians are atheists, some of us are agnostic or what you might call "new agie type spiritualists" and not all of our beliefs are opposite yours, but some are and we like to come here to get a christians perspective on different issues. Sometimes I suppose we are just curious to understand why you believe the things you believe, or to find out the latest apologetics for fun. You guys complain about hearing the same questions that you've been hearing for years, but some of us wonder why since we're talking about the most important thing: the destiny of our immortal soul, you would have more patience with our questions and concerns and maybe get us to go to heaven with you. In fairness many christians on this site do just that, and it's caused me to have a more favorable view of religious people than I've ever felt in my entire life, but still the biggest critisizm that people have of christianity in general is intolerance and when we hear about people being censored for any reason at all... especially moonflower who is about the most non offensive person I've come across of this whole website, it just makes our opinion of christians take another hit. I mean reading comments by people like that outsider mod give me a rash...

I think that in general people are happy to answer questions about our faith, and that when such questions come up, there are plenty of people who take a lot of time and effort to discuss those topics.

There's a big difference between someone seeking to understand the views of others and someone who is trying to push their own view on others. I won't claim to have read every comment moonflower has ever made, but the ones I've seen are much more of the "i know the truth and I am here to educate you on your delusions" vein. I will never claim that she hasn't been kind and fairly respectful, and I probably wouldn't remove every comment that outsider has, but to say that the Bible is not the word of God is a pretty blatant opposition to the Christian faith. =) It's my opinion that someone who does not believe that does not have a whole lot to offer a Christian other than trying to steer them away from a belief system they believe to be false.

Maybe, but there are many versions of christianity that believe that the bible contains some truths inspired by God, but that not the entire bible is inspired by God. As a non christian this is where I find common ground with them, and it's a good starting point for an exchange of ideas. I agree that people whose viewpoints are diametrically apart probably won't be able to communicate in a productive way, but it can be fun to try and also to read through some of the more angry exchanges(to me anyways). The problem though is when we ask a fundamentalist christian what they believe and we're either shocked or offended by their response, this is a difficult situation to be congenial in. I also think it can be beneficial for us with more liberal spiritual values to share our viewpoints as long as it's done in a respectful way, many of us have beliefs that are evolving over time and we want to feel free to share things we'ver learned or come to understand, obviously moonflower has very different beliefs when it comes to religion than the majority of christians but I've never seen her say anything that would be interpreted as offensive. Like I said I've said blatantly insulting things to people in the past just to get a rise out of them but in general I stopped doing that because of the tolerant responses I've gotten from people here, which surprised me. I honestly think this site could be really great but I just beg the mods to not start banning people unless they have been truly and blatantly disrespectful, I admit that being on Reddit you will at times come under attack by the r/atheism crowd, I can't think of a solution to that problem... well, maybe because I'm part of the problem... but I will say that your response to that kind of hostility will have a direct effect on how this thread is viewed by everyone else. I mean look, christianity has gotten a bad rap in alot of ways even I'll acknowledge that, but given that fact the last thing a group who has been viewed as intolerant in the past, acts in ways that are viewed as intolerant. I understand you guys desire to have a place to come and hang out with others who share similar beliefs, I'm just not sure there's a way to totally accomplish that on a free website or the internet in general really... I guess we'll see.

Imagine that you're a member of a small, 200 member church, and you're participating in a church Bible study with some of your members. Then, in the middle of a great discussion, a large group vastly outnumbering you walks in, listens for 30 seconds, and then they all start shouting at you about how you're wrong and stupid for believing in God.

Now Imagine that you decide to hold that church service in the open, in the middle of the local Mall. Would you be surprised when all the people who are shopping start listening to what you say and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning?

THIS is what is happening here. /r/Christianity isn't comparable to a study group or a church service, as none of those are ever held in the middle of the public space.

Start a private forum and your analogy will be valid, but as long as it's on Reddit it isn't. You have to consider your group like if they were in the middle of a very busy public place, not like if they were in your living room.

Start a private forum and your analogy will be valid, but as long as it's on Reddit it isn't. You have to consider your group like if they were in the middle of a very busy public place, not like if they were in your living room.

Just because many subreddits are wide open doesn't mean that all of them are. The front page of reddit.com that I just reloaded says "Create your own community...for your WoW guild." Reloading a few times I also got "...for your office to better share information", "...for your LARPing community", and "...for your favorite sorority". The intention is clearly that you can make communities for something you want to discuss, in the way you want to discuss it. Would you also object when the WoW guild deletes "All WoW players are losers in their moms' basements" or when the /r/AlphaBetaGamma mods delete "Sorority girls are a bunch of sluts"?

You had to choose to subscribe to /r/christianity. If you hadn't, you would never know what was going on here. The only other way you'd know is if you came here via a link from /r/atheism (as I happen to know that at least one has been posted there today). In either case, this forum is publicly viewable but our topics do not encroach on your daily redditing unless you have specifically requested that they do so.

And now you have got smacfarl up till 4:00AM on a weekday, reading 400+ comments and writing very detailed responses. Could we next time, like plan to do this in advance, so smacfarl can meet the communities needs without robbing from his sleep schedule?

Imagine, if you will, that an atheist group has formed. Outside they hang a sign saying "Neo-Nihilist Coalition Board discussion, Welcome, please enter".

And within they begin aspousing how they have all agreed, sharing similar value preferences, that being religious is immoral, is wrong, and is to be discouraged in their social circles. Then they affix several other "implications" of being religious (none of these actually being grounded in fact).

And you walk in and hear them.

Keep in mind, these people are talking about YOU. They've formed a group, and are now describing how to treat or otherwise think/deal with another group to which you by definition belong.

Do you?

a) Object.
b) Object LOUDLY.
c) Walk away

not trying to force a false dichotomy. Just trying to show where I think people are coming from. Trying to demonstrate how trying to engage this group in conversation and offer convincing argumentation to why they should change their value system, is reasonable.

That said, I agree with you that Christians do play the persecution card at the drop of a hat. I'm in no danger of being eaten by lions or denied any service because of my faith. At least here in the USA any play of the persecution card seems silly to me.

At least here in the USA any play of the persecution card seems silly to me.

I've known people in the USA who have been harassed and discriminated against in employment and schooling due to their Christian beliefs. I'm not saying it's common, and I'd bet that there's probably many more Christians discriminating against non-Christians than vice versa. I'm just saying that it does happen and shouldn't be dismissed just because it goes against the norm, if that makes sense.

Oh come one. I know you Christians like to play the 'persecution' card, but Christianity being the largest religion on the planet with 2.2 billion members makes that argument a bit disingenuous.

I never claimed that. I'm talking about on reddit. Here, we are in the severe minority and every time /r/atheism decides to crash a conversation, 5 of us couldn't moderate comments fast enough to even make a dent.

I am perfectly comfortable discussing about faith. I find it a fascinating concept. However, there is no discussion if the other side refuses to even listen to what I have to say.

Many of us are more than willing to listen to what you have to say. But for me, I've listened to people tell me that my faith is stupid for decades and I'm not convinced. At what point do I get to ignore the same 2 or 3 arguments that I've already worked through multiple times without being called closeminded? =)

What surprises me is that with 100,000 members in /r/atheism, people still come in here and think that their arguments are fresh. We've moved on. I'm tired of discussions about physics and calculus being derailed by daily questions about addition.

Our 8000 readers could not crush the 100,000 users that downvote anything that even remotely mentions Christianity in a positive light. They crash our discussions and the only recourse we have on reddit is to remove their comments. We can't even stop them from downvoting without banning them.

200 downvotes is actually worse than deleting a comment, because it continues to invite spiteful responses.

Because an atheist has never done anything evil, right? Why is it always a subset of humanity is evil: religion, Jews, nazis, African Americans, gays, etc.

Wouldn't it be a better approach to say that PEOPLE are the root of evil in this world? There are plenty of nasty people in every single subsection of the world; just because more people are religious than not in this world doesn't mean that the world is evil because of religion.

People do evil things. That's the end of it. You can't blame religion for that. People twist religion to fit their own desires; is that an idea's fault? Ideas have no moral substance because they are IDEAS. It's what people DO to with those ideas that transforms it into good or evil.

Atheism is not a believe, it is a lack of a belief. Therefore atheism cannot be a reason for doing good or evil.

History shows us religions as being the reason for massive loads of evil, and they still are.

Wars, killings, rape, tollerated child-abuse, people dying of aids and being told they can't use condoms, minorities (e.g. gays) being surpressed or worse killed with the absolution of churches, all that in the name of religion.

I never said atheism is a reason for doing good or evil; people are evil. It doesn't matter where a person lives or what their background is, or their beliefs OR LACK OF BELIEFS. People do evil things.

Religion is an idea; ideas are not evil. It's what people do with those ideas that is evil. There are many atheists who do evil things. To think that just because someone is an atheist they don't do evil things is pretty naive. I'm a religious person, yet I have never started a war, I have never served in a war, and I have never supported a war. Am I still an evil person to you?

My point is, you are DOING what many Christians do: you are stereotyping an entire group of people based on their beliefs and calling them evil for it.

And hence we come to the very thing that parent poster pointed out. This is not a forum for debating Christians and their religion. It's a forum for fellow Christians to share their perspectives. Not fellow atheists.

I fully agree. People are the root of human evil. Religions tend to be enablers, though, as those religions which didn't contain memes for encouraging violent conquest of neighboring regions tended to get violently conquered. There are some exceptions, but Christianity certainly isn't one.

Atheism, because it isn't a belief system, cannot be considered in any way a similar enabler.

Also I'll tell you why atheists want to be heard here: We feel that religions are the root of evil in this world and we want you (christians) to see the light for the sake of all of us on this planet.

Funny, we think sin is the root of evil in this world and want you to be saved from yourselves and hopefully grow into a better person through a relationship with Christ. Admittedly, lots of people who profess Christianity fail severely in this latter category, and instead take on a position of self-righteousness, and if someone has a way of fixing that I will be the first one on board.

But in the end, we don't like being preached at in our house any more than you like it in yours. I don't go preaching in /r/atheism because I'm clearly not wanted there. Unfortunately the downvote system works there because of their large numbers, while it works against us here for the same reason. That's why we mods have taken on the responsibility of trying to balance the problem out. I would much rather not have to do any moderation of this subreddit at all.

But in the end, we don't like being preached at in our house any more than you like it in yours. I don't go preaching in /r/atheism because I'm clearly not wanted there.

See that's where you are wrong. You are wanted in r/atheism. We are not there to hunt and kill you, no we just like reasonable dialogue, and you seem to be very able at that.

In my house (I mean my real house here) everyone is welcome, even if they are religious, or even worse, political right wingers. ;) They can say what they want, I will discuss them though. But talking never killed anyone.

r/atheism is not my house or home, so I for one would never forbid anyone to post whatever they feel like there.

But in the end, we don't like being preached at in our house any more than you like it in yours.

Actually, I quite like that.

I don't go preaching in /r/atheism because I'm clearly not wanted there.

You're more than welcome to come over for a discussion, also in my real house. I love discussing things like this, see it as a mental exercise/sport, a battle of wits if you will.

I think that is the fundamental difference between Christians and atheists, and thus between /r/Christianity and /r/atheism. We like being challenged, we don't have any 'sacred' ideas, everything is open for discussion and we will change our minds if you have a compelling argument.

Personally, I think the reason that Christians have this attitude is that deep down inside, they know their religion doesn't make any rational sense (it's faith, not fact after all) and they are afraid someone will burst the bubble and they lose the comfort they get from their faith.

The sad part is, reality is so much more magnificent and beautiful than the Christian worldview. You're wrapped in your comfortable little blanked afraid to let go and step into the outside world, unaware that so much more awaits you on the 'outside'. Yes it's scary to be out there all alone in that enormous and hostile universe without someone watching over you, but it's also a wonderful place to be.

I was raised a Catholic, I know the stories and the belief system they teach people, I even believed most of it before I grew up (I returned to atheism when I was about 11-12 , don't remember exactly).

I have been challenged quite a lot here today and I don't have any problem with it. The thing is that a vast majority of the time, challenges here come from people who are just trying to argue the same topics we've heard over and over again. Heck, I've already explained that at least 3 times today in this thread alone. See how redundant it gets? =) You can only have the same argument so many times before you just don't want to have it anymore, especially when there is rarely, if ever, a change of heart on either side.

Personally, I think the reason that Christians have this attitude is that deep down inside, they know their religion doesn't make any rational sense (it's faith, not fact after all) and they are afraid someone will burst the bubble and they lose the comfort they get from their faith.

This is certainly the truth for some, I have no doubt. Ironically their faith is fragile because they never let it be tested. My faith is much stronger for having been tested. The problem is that many of us have moved past the tests you atheists can provide. You may think we're stupid, but we've answered your challenges to our satisfaction and would now like to discuss something else. But we can't because people keep interrupting and asserting the same old points, derailing the conversations. And then, of course, we have the less-than-well-meaning trolls who are just always a problem. It's much easier to err on the side of caution and potentially exclude some well-meaning atheists from this relatively tiny subreddit.

The sad part is, reality is so much more magnificent and beautiful than the Christian worldview.

All I can say is that different people have different experiences. I know that many people experience an insufferable, legalistic, closeminded form of Christianity that is forced on them by their families, and I'm not surprised that such people rebel against the faith as a result. Why that happens is one of the primary questions I have for God. But I have known life with God and without, and life with God is immensely better for me than it was without him.

You may think we're stupid, but we've answered your challenges to our satisfaction and would now like to discuss something else.

As far as I know, there never has been any (scientific) proof that god actually exists. So the actual difference of opinion here is not wether god exists or not, but what constitutes acceptable proof. You're satisfied with less than absolute proof, while 'we' are not.

I know that many people experience an insufferable, legalistic, closeminded form of Christianity that is forced on them by their families, and I'm not surprised that such people rebel against the faith as a result.

While I was raised a Catholic, my atheism is not 'rebellion' because that would imply a choice. I really don't believe god exists, it's not something I can decide to not-believe out of rebellion. Having studied all the evidence, I simply cannot draw the conclusion that there is a god, saying so would be dishonest.

But I have known life with God and without, and life with God is immensely better for me than it was without him.

Like I said, I was raised a catholic so I know both sides as well. Having read the Bible and knowing Christian dogma, it presents such a simplistic, childish and immature worldview that in contrast with the almost infinite complexity, beauty, depth and vastness of the universe it is simply inconceivable that it has any relation to reality. It feels so 'empty' compared to the real world.

You and I are on the same page. When I post here, I want input from other Christians. I'm not asking for atheist input. But yet I get modded down -20 and rebuked by a bunch of atheists for offending their sensibilities. If I wanted atheist input, I'd go post in r/atheism. But I don't. Why do they think that they need to come here and force their dross opinion on me?

That way, the Christians who foul the public square with their intolerance and thuggery can have their own board, and good Christians can have this board. That'll draw the anti-theists away and this board can exchange recipes and discuss theology in a peaceful and decorous manner.

I'm all for the peaceful resolution of this ongoing squabble but lets get real here: Atheists come in here and rabble-rouse all the time.

We try to be nice, and keep it to the basics but some won't even accept anything when we say it, even worded properly with absolutely no judgment thrown in.

There's debate and then there is arguing, name calling, and slandering. Think about your response before you engage in conversation, be respectful to your neighbors. Everyone gets in a tizzy and it just perpetuates the juvenile discussion.

r/christianity is an echo chamber, and i say let them have it. we all know that r/atheism is no better. (except for the fact that christian trolls just get brutally downvoted there, and not banned or censored.)

Personally, I don't have any problem with debate here, and I don't think the rules of the subreddit reflect that there is a problem with healthy discourse. The rules seem to be to undercut trolls from overrunning this subreddit, which makes sense because of the overwhelming number of atheists on this site, and anyone who has spent anytime in r/atheism is well aware that there a LOT of atheists out there who are not interested in debate of any kind at all, but simply rehashing old, tired memes in a constant game of psuedo-gotcha, without any effort put into understanding things from a Christian perspective.

I would welcome more debate here than there is - but I am not a mod, and I would want it to be moderated still so that it can stay constructive.

Frankly, I don't really want them banned because I believe in free-speech, but I can tell you it's something I've wished would happen.

I believe in free speech too, where it is appropriate. But it's kind of like defending wanting to talk about what Dawkins has to say in church. It interferes with the primary mission of that forum. Some bans may be appropriate if it increases the betterment of the forum in general.

Just to throw my two cents in, I've been harassed on this subreddit before by atheists. They linked a thread of mine to the r/atheism subreddit and my inbox was flooded with hatred. I have since changed my username and rarely post for fear of it happening again.

I really think that the mods are trying to prevent that sort of stuff from happening... just like you wouldn't go to r/lgbt making fun of them, atheists really shouldn't be coming here and making fun of us. I don't think ANYONE has a problem with CIVIL discussion.

I don't know what was precisely said in that thread, since it was deleted, but I don't think any mod has the intentions of deleting or banning people without good reason.

I do find it interesting, though, that you post about not wanting to ban atheists:

The few that raise hell are annoying, but I don't believe banning anyone is the answer

and yet in the same post, you say:

I sometimes hope a mod would see that these people are being completely unloving and unreasonable, but alas, they're never banned.

Just to throw my two cents in, I've been harassed on this subreddit before by atheists. They linked a thread of mine to the r/atheism subreddit and my inbox was flooded with hatred.

Same thing happened to me, one of my comments deep into a discussion on an aging thread was linked and received over 100 downvotes. Because it was an old thread it was me arguing with 20 atheists. Every comment I made in reply was downvoted, even though I was making my best effort to rationally discuss the issue. Granted, I was not always polite, as its hard to be in the face of anonymous ridicule, but downvoting something in a subreddit you never frequent because someone disagrees with you is childish.

Because of that I have vowed to never again argue about God's existence on the internet, especially when its off topic.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. HSMOM doesn't want to engage in the type of discussions which take place in r/DebateAChristian and thus people should spread those discussions into other subreddits, which exist for different purposes, so he is forced to see them?

My point is that many in here don't go there, but they want to shove all the atheists over there. I don't even go there, so I'm not trying to call her out on it. I'm just saying r/DebateAChristian is kind of a black hole.

Because the majority of us don't want to debate. And that's what most of the threads in this subreddit turn into. I'd love to come and just discuss theology, life stuff, and becoming more like Jesus, but feel like I have to defend everything I say to a secular viewpoint. I try not to respond to athiest/agnostic, because honestly, it's not fruitful to either.

I don't know what the solution is other than a personal rule for myself to not respond. I'm pretty bad at that though and everytime I respond I feel like I've wasted time when I could have been having a uplifting conversation.

I think the fact that /r/DebateAChristian is a wasteland speaks louder than anything else we can say on the subject. The overwhelming majority of Christians on reddit would rather NOT have debates of this nature here. Maybe some are afraid to, others are already tired of doing so. I know that the latter is true for me.

The answer is not to ignore that subreddit because it's empty, but rather to realize why it's empty and not come in here looking to bother people. I do wish more Christians were interested in debates with atheists so those of us who want to discuss our faith can do so, but since I'm one of the ones who prefers this subreddit to that one, I guess I'm just part of the "problem." =)

Atheists come here and say they are here to "learn" and "discuss" when in relaity most come here to make broad generalizations about Christianity and ultimately to promote an anti-christian agenda. There is /r/debateachristian for that. I come here to talk with other Christians, if you would like to learn, then learn! But don't come under the guise of learning when in reality you are trying to belittle our views as well as insult us.

What I see when I see atheists come in here must be different than what everyone else sees most of the time. I don't see people who come in here to belittle us. I see angry people who want to find one Christian who isn't a hypocritical representation of the religion.

I dunno...maybe I just feel more compassion towards atheists than most.

Some of our views of atheists may be a bit skewed as well. Back when I was one, I had a circle of friends who shared my irreligion, and everybody around me never went through any sort of rejection from their families or friends for their lack of beliefs. Many of us were only aggressively anti-religion because we needed something to nerd-rage against in order to feel good about ourselves.

For those of us who grew up in deeply liberal areas, this category of atheist might be a tad more common than those who have a real reason to hold a grudge against Christians. Greater perspective should be had on both sides.

The problem with the "just ignore them" thing is that we are radically outnumbered by atheists on this site.

Most of the atheists at r/Christianity are nice people and respectful.

However, there are definitely some trolls and a bury brigade that come over here and downvote informative posts just because they are Christian posts.

I've seriously seen some great posts that get -4 or even hidden simply because some non-posting bury brigade atheists come over here and downvote. This is a problem because we are largely a Christian community. I've definitely grown in a spiritual sense thanks to the knowledge laid down here, and it's a shame that it is often hidden due to the bury brigade

We can't stop the non-contributing ones, but we can identify the ones that blatantly post anti-Christian rhetoric, so we must use the banhammer for these ones.

I'm only speaking of the jerks that don't contribute anything - I'm not talking about the atheists that contribute and challenge in a thoughtful manner. They can post things that contradict Christian teachings all they want as long as it isn't intentionally anti-Christian or insulting in tone

Eh, I don't think that analogy holds, though. Discussing oddities of car construction, apparent flaws in cars, issues of the consequences of internal combustion engines - awesome, seems highly appropriate for a general "cars" subreddit, because it's still founded on an assumption of a shared interest in automobiles. A lot of the chatter in r/Christianity seems more like jumping into the middle of a discussion on whether or not someone should buy a Mazda to proclaim that no one should buy cars ever, because they clearly exist only to feed the military-industrial complex, and that (since Henry Ford was a well-documented anti-Semite) all car production is morally egregious. Then, when some people say "well, okay, I mean, I guess", and others say "look, we're discussing transmission issues, how about you head over to r/DebateAMechanic", then follow the enjoinders how this is just one more example of car-lover bigotry against those who see through the lies of the automobile-fascist-mindcontrol hegemony.

Do you occasionally get people making excellent points about the risks and costs inherent in all wheeled vehicles, that may render them fudamentally untenable? Sure, and if they want to directly debate the issue, r/DebateAMechanic exists.

Do you get non-car-lovers asking questions, or raising viewpoints from an outside perspective? That too, and it often greatly enriches discussion.

Do you get people telling you how everybody who's honest knows that driving a car makes you willfully responsible for every vehicular homicide and drunk driver ever, and that to deny that is simply illogical? Sure, and sometimes you really just want to talk about transmission overhauls with other gearheads without someone accusing you of serving the sinister interests of the car-cabals, especially when there is a massive subreddit called r/antiCars.

I should note I have no strong knowledge, and therefore opinion, on the mods issue, other than wishing that posts didn't get wholesale deleted (it makes it hard to follow discussions you come upon late.) I just was struck by your metaphor and wanted to express a different take on things.

The problem with this position is that things like the age of the earth and the treatment of homosexuals are reasons for division and ill-feelings, both between Christians and non-Christians and within Christianity.

Imagine you lived in a secular society where Muslims just became the majority, and they were starting to enact laws that persecute behavior common to non-Muslims (eating pork, for instance) and started to enforce behavior standards that non-Muslims don't agree with (like the wearing of abayas and niqabs). I find it hard to believe that you would consider "These things are a small part of what Islam is, so we don't want to talk about them." to be a valid argument for dismissal of your concerns.

I find it hard to believe that you would consider "These things are a small part of what Islam is, so we don't want to talk about them." to be a valid argument for dismissal of your concerns.

Agreed, but I think we could also agree that interrupting Friday prayers or an Arabic lesson to complain about the pork laws isn't the right way to deal with that. I don't think M15 was saying that those aren't discussion-worthy topics, he's saying that without strong moderation those would become the only topics.

What post here has been "bothering" people? I just disagreed with a position expressed by someone and explained why. If that meets your definition of "bothering" then I don't see how it would be possible to have any conversation with you.

I would have to disagree. Maybe some of them are hostile because they haven't been shown kindness by other CHristians before and this could be our opportunity to show them we're not all hypocritical a-holes.

I don't know why they're hostile, but being upset about their treatment in the world and then coming here to act like we were the ones that wronged them is simply ignorant. If I went up to a bunch of random black people and started berating them because I got mugged by a black guy the week before, how do you think that would go over? =)

I'm all for changing people's minds about Christ and Christians, but there is only so much that can be done when a person's only interest is causing trouble. Believe me, there are plenty of kindhearted Christian responses to non-believers on a regular basis. I know that I try to provide them myself when I see such opportunities.

For what's it's worth, it is the rampant censorship that keeps the more even-keeled atheists from participating here. When a reasonable response will still get your comment deleted, there is little reason to not run in throwing feces at the start.

That may be true, but if we're discussing a topic that stipulates Christ's diety and active participation in the lives of his followers, then an atheist's view is not really useful in that particular discussion. There are many topics which atheists are welcome in, and plenty of others where they really have nothing of value to contribute without trying to push people away from their faith.

Fair enough. But I think the point is valid either way. You shouldn't attack an individual based on the actions of other individuals just because you perceive them to be linked. Not an hour ago I had to explain that as a protestant, the pope does not speak for me. =)

Like I said before, I've come here with the express purpose of causing trouble and insulting christians, only to all the sudden be having an intelligent thoughtful discussion with someone that forces me to look at my own prejudices when dealing with christians. I still feel tricked or robbed of the fun I was going to have, but this is probably for the best...

A lot of "them" are hostile because they feel they've been deceived their entire lives by the people closest to them. Many of them are hostile towards the presented reality that others seem to have no issue accepting a fleeting life in. Most of them are very tired of this waiting for the end of days thing. Some of them are mad that they had their genitals mutilated in the name of something they now perceive as a stone-age fairy tail. They don't all believe the same thing like Christians claim to, and because of that it stands to reason that they would have more to object to compared to the more docile indoctrinated belief system.

And then there is the issue that "they" arent really any different from you or the guy in the next cubicle. We let thoughts and beliefs divide us when there is no reason for it, just cuing off of base social instincts. I think many of "them" long for a time when people stop acting like elder tribesman and start seeing themselves as an insignificant little speck on an insignificant blue dot, and that all the organized factions are tearing us apart rather than their stated goal of bringing people together/closer/etc. Through that insignificance is a significant message about what we are truly capable of when people stop noticing differences.

You and I are a lot more similar than we are different, and yet it is our differences that make us interesting to each-other and give us a basis of self. It is not hard to see that when a non-believer talks frankly about Christanity (even in their past), that it would be seen and felt first as a personal attack.

To sum up the hostility for you, It's like being given a wedding ring, wearing it for years, and only 20 years down the line when you look at it a little closer that you realize it's a total glaring fake. How would you feel?

Officially, it is for Christians. Maybe that wasn't always the case, but the man who created the subreddit and the people he chose to help run it are all in agreement that there are plenty of places on reddit for all kinds of discussions about religion, but because of the very large discrepancy between Christians and non-Christians here, there was a need for a place for Christians to be able to discuss issues about their faith without being immediately shouted/voted down.

/r/Christianity had become the exact opposite of this: it was a place where some atheists could easily direct their attacks and arguments. We decided to enact a policy that this place is meant for Christians first, and that anyone who wants to respect that community and have a respectful discussion about faith, regardless of their personal beliefs, is more than welcome. However, we chose to limit the topics of such discussions so as to avoid the inevitable trollfights. I'm much happier erring on the side of caution, considering this is a low-subscriber subreddit and that the entire rest of the site is open to that sort of debate, as well as specific subreddits such as religion and debateachristian.

I honestly don't understand why so many people are having a hard time understanding this. I peruse r/atheism from time to time out of curiosity, but when I see something I dislike or don't understand, I just keep my mouth shut. r/atheism is not the place to preach to atheists, and if I don't understand something it usually becomes clearer if I exercise some patience and keep reading.

Part of why I subscribed to this subreddit was because I was hoping for a relatively homogeneous belief set, where I wouldn't get criticized or challenged on every minute thing I said. I've gotten used to the fact that most members here have a variety of conflicting beliefs while still claiming the title of Christian, and I enjoy most of the spars that happen in a friendly tone. But my goodness, it would be nice to not have to flinch every time I see an orangered, wondering who's nitpicking my last post with inane questions that have no answer.

I'm not trying to brown-nose here, and I might just make a lot of people mad at me, but I am glad the mods are banning when they feel it necessary. All of reddit is open to people nitpicking on Christian beliefs; it would be nice if there was just ONE subreddit that refrained from doing do. If redditors won't respect that, it's fair to have them banned.

I peruse r/atheism from time to time out of curiosity, but when I see something I dislike or don't understand, I just keep my mouth shut. r/atheism is not the place to preach to atheists, and if I don't understand something it usually becomes clearer if I exercise some patience and keep reading.

For one, I would like to invite you to comment on anything you read in r/atheism. Many of us are perfectly willing to hear your comments even if we do not share your views. It's embarrassing that so many atheists feel the need to crash discussions on r/Christianity. I don't agree with everything posted here, and I don't think that bans are always the way to solve it but I respect your space.

"You are more than welcome here, and we appreciate the opportunity to have your point of view represented in our discussions"

from your rules, and I think many people will be more ok with everything.

It is obviously hypocritical to have that in your rules if people have their posts deleted and/or are told that they are pushing an anti-Christian agenda for respectfully presenting an opposing viewpoint.

I'm not the only one who has said this, but nobody has managed to answer this point.

You folks could settle a lot of this, I think, by just stating in your policy that while non-Christians are welcome, posts advocating non-Christian points of view are not. I personally don't have any problem with Christians having a subreddit in which they talk about their religion among themselves, or to interested non-believers. But the "welcome" to non-Christians as currently phrased is misleading, in my opinion.

I've said this already, but plenty of atheists post here and have no problems. It's a relative minority of people who are complaining and riling up the other atheists who do feel welcome here, and get them feeling personally attacked even though they haven't been. We did have verbage mentioning "pushing a non-Christian agenda" but apparently that has been removed (but still well-remembered).

I've been at this for hours and have only come across 3 users out of dozens I've talked to that have actually experienced their posts being deleted. The rest of you are just expressing general concern even though I don't think you really need to have any.

The simple fact is that atheists are welcome here. Proselytizing atheists are not.

If you find one that is half as good as the one we have here, let me know. =)

I have spent my entire life in church but I find it extremely hard to wade through the right wing ignorance that fully Christian message boards tend to welcome. I want to talk about issues of faith, not how Obama is the devil.