Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Marty, I'm not saying you have to agree with it... just pointing out the reasons why someone might. I'm not too keen on the idea, myself, if for no other reason that these mods would most certainly void the warranty.

I don't really buy the "low-inertia" thing, since the hammer mass and action ratio are the biggest determinant of inertia in an action. However, having low friction capstans installed would make maintenance of the instrument easier, and they are not all that expensive. Same thing with the key pins, but installing WNG key pins is a pain in the butt, from what I hear.

Thanks for the extensive, objective treatment of my comments.

Regarding the capstans, after having installed a number of sets, I can say from experience that they do make a worthwhile difference. For their modest cost, they offer significant bang for the buck.

I missed the OP's location. Clearly he has been given good advice for his particular situation by some of the other posters.

You have clearly stated where the issue is. It's what you choose to believe.

I have not said that new S&S Ds are necessarily bad (although some of them are).

I have stated that they can be improved from good -- even quite good -- to world class instruments that will blow away the generic factory output.

I'm not offering opinion or something to "believe". I'm telling what I have accomplished with pianos from old to brand new. Neither am I alone in having done this kind of makeover on brand new instruments. For those who want "more" -- more is possible.

Some of my colleagues refer to what you have just gotten as a "piano kit". If you want a real, world-class instrument that will blow the lid off most other concert instruments, do the following:

Throw away the hammers, shanks and flanges. Replace with Carbon Fiber /Composite shanks and flanges tipped with ultra-premium Classical West hammers -- the world's best and most expensive.

Install the Wapin bridge modification for greater tonal focus and power, giving the ability of the piano to whisper to the back of any hall as well as filling it with a roar.

Since the strings need to be loosened to install Wapin, anyway, just throw away the bass strings and replace them with premium, custom hand wound bass strings that don't have the swaging deformation and have an underwrap of stainless spring steel.

Have a skilled technician finalize the work and make the whole into an amazing instrument that will be the envy of other halls and an amazement to every artist that plays it.

We all understand the difference between "stock" and "custom" with cars and golf clubs and even houses. The time has come to realize that the idea that the best piano comes from the factory is nothing more than factory propaganda. Those who are acting on this realization are enjoying some mind-blowingly amazing instruments.

The context has to do with instruments that are capable of improvement. The author knows that some pianos were never made to play, but only to sell, and, consequently, cannot be improved upon. Many will remember the typical ca.1980 Memphis-made Aeolian spinet. So cheaply constructed in both parts and labor, some 30+ years later the cost of a service call alone can easily exceed piano FMV.

No doubt, better piano manufacturers believe their instruments to be the best that can be achieved given what they have in mind from the outset, and predicated upon available dollars to invest in research, development, production and distribution.

However, the reality is that the factory doesn't always produce "the best" - namely, what its instruments are truly capable of. Plans may look good on paper. Prototype may even be outstanding. But in the implementation thereof, issues unforeseen can ensue that require cost cutting measures. Older technology may be employed even when newer has been demonstrated to be better. Often, due to patent issues, newer technology may be either unobtainable or too expensive to use in the manufacturing process. Ultimately, the final product falls short of expectations. It is, however, released for retail sale.

Many of these instruments will be purchased. Subsequently, some will be disappointed with this or that. Techs - both dealer and factory - will scramble to address the problems: sometimes, successfully; other times, not.

With no resolution in sight, enter the independent piano technician. If the warranty is expired, or it does not cover the problems in question, options are set forth to ameliorate the situation.

Such need fuels a growing piano after-market.

Having said this, pianists should exercise due caution. Extensive changes such as those proposed may void the warranty. Moreover, should there come a time for re-sale, potential buyers might view these changes as producing a hybrid of sorts: Not necessarily a good thing in the view of some who may be thinking of their own chances at re-sale down the road. The possibility also exists that the proposed improvements, when effected, may not meet expectations.

Limited improvements to world class grand pianos have been accepted practice for years. Hammer replacement with Renner or others, being perhaps most commonplace. The extensive changes proposed are something else entirely.

We are not saying: "Don't do it!" The technician suggesting these things is of sterling reputation and sound acumen. We only urge Cautious Pianist to test the depth of the water before jumping in.

Surprisingly often pianos with all the improvements hailed as the next breakthrough very quickly end up in a rehearsal studio somewhere and often the trusted old workhorse that it replaced is resurrected and brought back into service.

I've tuned some of them.

Established Manufacturers do make experimental design changes to pianos but keep them under observation in a rental fleet, for example and never publicise it or adopt it unless it proves itself over time and use.

Design changes are often merely different and not necessarily what real pianists are looking for.

Of course, anyone with the funds can purchase a designer piano. Many people do. Often more for bragging rights than anything else.

The wapin bridge modification adresses mostly the kind of unison tuning generally used, allowing the tone to be more open despite no energy dealing at time of unisoning (hence a non relaly tuned top of the spectra)

I heard a few excellent tunings but may be they represent 5% of the professionalm tuners.As nobody seem to be able to find theoretical explanations on how the tuner adresses tone while tuning I understand thios is left as a work in progress - ore a hidden secret of the trade (while that is a little surprizing , after 200 years of piano building)

My hypothesis is that you get a similar tone enlighting or almost, just with appropriate unison tuning (plus a tuning that put the accent on natural resonance of the instrumenht( generlaly speaking)

I would even believe that more variability in tone is obtained without Wapîn or bridge agrafes , even if indeed the energy use allow less losses with those systems (or seem to).

ALso there is always a tone coloration that goess together with those modifications. less with Wapin probably (less mass).

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

You have clearly stated where the issue is. It's what you choose to believe.

I have not said that new S&S Ds are necessarily bad (although some of them are).

I have stated that they can be improved from good -- even quite good -- to world class instruments that will blow away the generic factory output.

I'm not offering opinion or something to "believe". I'm telling what I have accomplished with pianos from old to brand new. Neither am I alone in having done this kind of makeover on brand new instruments. For those who want "more" -- more is possible.

What you have quoted from my post was not directed to you, it was in reference to another poster who came out in defense of your reply. I find any defense of your reply to the OP to be quite unbelievable.

Your technical suggestions/improvements were totally inappropriate answers to the question being asked by the OP. Basically, he was asking how to care for, and 'break-in,' a brand new, just out of the box, Hamburg-D. Your response was modification to a new instrument. Do you consider that to be an appropriate reply?

What if you wrote to a forum stating that you had just purchased a brand new Ferrari and asked for suggestions on how to treat the car during the break-in period? Would you believe someone who suggested that you should immediately change the wiring harness?

Instead of chiming in with your technical theories of potential alterations, it might serve the forum well if you would actually read, and comprehend, why the thread was authored and use your experience to actually answer the question being asked.

Marty,Do you really think flogging posters with your demand that they keep to your exact interpretation of the post title worth the aggravation? The atmosphere of the forum becomes odiferous with bile if more than one complaining response is posted.

Keith's recipe is not the same I cook with-but it gains in energy if you flog it too much-and that takes us off topic.

What part of "take care of" don't you understand? Read the original post. How does a Wapin bridge or choice of action parts relate to playing chromatic scales?

I await some truly convoluted replies in an attempt at a cogent response.

And allow me to quote from the actual original post:

"As a pianist, I have never been through the process of getting a brand new concert piano ready for performances.... What are the details for this "getting the piano ready" process?"

Taking the above quote at face falue, Keith's modifications are an appropriate response in that this is how he would ideally go about preparing a newly uncrated concert instrument for professional use. Further, you are not the forum police. You constantly attack, berate, and annoy others with whom you disagree. Actually... you aren't even a tech, either, and this is a forum for piano technicians and people who have questions for technicians. Therefore, you are not qualified to give technical advice. Zip it, already!

Wow! I am so happy to be in this forum, thank to each one of you who writes with great care, respect your helpful posts! ...

When I said set-up, I meant only the "putting it on its legs".

I understood that we should call the dealer or find a quality expert who has a knowledge, love and experience for concert grands like Steinway D. And make a contract for a planned maintainance.

Kpembrook, thank you for your post! What you suggest is too extreme for our conditions and I should make a compare first before making a radical modification. If I visit you one day, I will be happy to play both a factory and custom of the same model. But I love our Steinway just the way it is now and will be happy to keep this quality for decades. Making it better is not in the priority now. But some conservatoirs in the world have plenty of Steinways, maybe they will be interested to give it a try.

The OP is not a tech and that should have been apparent to all who read his question. He was not asking for rebuilding advice, he was asking the most simple and basic of questions.

I was not the first to point out the oddity of Akins' response. It was read as being sarcastic, by others. Please read my reply after the assertion was made.

When I am attacked, I will respond.

Qualified? One does not need to be a member of the PTG to answer that basic questions posed by the OP. One does not even need to purchase an Associate Membership. If you can fault the advice I gave, I would like to hear your counter.

#2105299 - 06/20/1311:16 AMRe: What should be done to take care of a new concert grand?
[Re: Ozgur]

James Carney
Full Member
Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 440
Loc: new york city

Originally Posted By: Ozgur

Hello everyone! We have just recieved our Steinway D for our new concert hall and very excited about it. For some reasons and conditions, we couldn't select our piano and they delivered us a brand new, unopened one. After the set-up, I played some intermezzi of Brahms, the piano sounds very beautiful and very easy to control despite of the light feel of the mechanism.

As a pianist, I have never been through the process of getting a brand new concert piano ready for performances. I heard that you should take it easy for two weeks or so, not play very loud and use the pedals carefully and so on...

What are the details for this "getting the piano ready" process? For example: Regularly playing chromatic scale including every key? and so on... It is essential for us to know.

Please post

Thanks!

Play away! The piano will benefit from being played, especially if it is receiving lots of attention from a skilled, qualified technician as it breaks in.

Be sure to get a thick padded cover for the D - and always cover the piano when it's not in use. I would also recommend that an expert measure the RH on the stage and the area where the piano will be stored. If it ever falls below 35% or goes above 55% I would install a dual-tank Dampp-Chaser humidity control system.

I would also install a fallboard lock, unless the security is extensive enough to obviate the need for it.

All pianos, especially new pianos, need extensive prep and touchup regulation as the parts break in. And with wooden parts, there will almost assuredly be a need to reregulate certain parameters over the first few years.

You need to find a technician that knows how to properly voice the strings to get the most energy into the soundboard. The strings also need to be leveled and hammers fitted properly for the best tone and sustain. The flanges need to be checked for consistent pinning - it's not unusual to have to repin an entire set of brand new hammer flanges, no matter who makes them.

We don't know how this piano was prepped or what kind of condition it was delivered in. But pro technicians that work on expensive instruments know that there is almost always something that can be improved or tricked out on any instrument, even without parts replacement.

Find a tech that understands the importance of this work, and make sure that it gets done. The sooner the piano is prepped the better it will be and the longer it will last.

And I agree about having it tuned regularly - especially if it's the same tech. Piano wire has a memory and it responds beautifully to consistency of tension. This also makes string voicing and string leveling more consistent.

Regarding Keith's suggestions, I can't recommend modifying a piano under a manufacturer's warranty, but I do agree that his proposed changes can often make a big difference with many pianos out there.

Surprisingly often pianos with all the improvements hailed as the next breakthrough very quickly end up in a rehearsal studio somewhere and often the trusted old workhorse that it replaced is resurrected and brought back into service.

I've tuned some of them.

Established Manufacturers do make experimental design changes to pianos but keep them under observation in a rental fleet, for example and never publicise it or adopt it unless it proves itself over time and use.

Design changes are often merely different and not necessarily what real pianists are looking for.

Of course, anyone with the funds can purchase a designer piano. Many people do. Often more for bragging rights than anything else.

Thanks, rxd.

Having said all of that, I am still sitting here wondering how one could possibly improve upon a Fazioli. These instruments are as close to perfection as one can get. But really, no one has to improve on these. The manufacturer does it for himself.

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?

Piano care isn't effected in a vacuum. It is two-fold: Care for a new piano must involve proper maintenance of the instrument itself, but always - always - with the pianist's desires in view. If he or she wishes to change Abel hammers with Renner or vise versa; if an MBA installation is requested, who are we to argue? Our responsibility is to listen, advise, and consent. If, for some reason, we cannot, then we can simply bid adieu.

What you have quoted from my post was not directed to you, it was in reference to another poster who came out in defense of your reply. I find any defense of your reply to the OP to be quite unbelievable.

My mistake. I should have read more carefully. I'm sorry.

Quote:

Your technical suggestions/improvements were totally inappropriate answers to the question being asked by the OP. Basically, he was asking how to care for, and 'break-in,' a brand new, just out of the box, Hamburg-D.

I didn't notice the OP's location. Obviously the technical resources available to him are not likely to be what are available elsewhere. I mentioned this oversight in a previous post.

Quote:

What if you wrote to a forum stating that you had just purchased a brand new Ferrari and asked for suggestions on how to treat the car during the break-in period? Would you believe someone who suggested that you should immediately change the wiring harness?

Two responses here . . .1) Actually upgrading new cars is something that is understood in the automobile world -- unlike the piano world. People really do enhance their cars by throwing away the "stock" equipment. More common on lesser cars but also done on others. Also, even high-end auto manufacturers actually offer options -- rather than woodenly maintaining that the way they do it is the only way that it can be done, or is best for a given performance situation.

2) Comparing a S&S D to a Ferrari may be a bit of a stretch. They can indeed be fine instruments. OTOH, as one example of S&S factory train-wrecks, I can take you to a "D" in a university where the treble end of the long bridge is over the belly rail. From note 40 on down the piano sounds great. The upper half of the compass not so much . . .

Quote:

Instead of chiming in with your technical theories of potential alterations

I have not at any point offered a theory. I have spoken from a very much reality-oriented, success-based extensive amount of experience from my 50 years as an active piano technician (I got a young start). I've actually seen stuff and done stuff and along the way made a good number of piano owners happy when others hadn't. I stay young by being open to new ideas and realizing there is yet more to be learned.

Neither am I alone. I have a university tech. colleague who says this about his visits to New York with a faculty member to select a new "D" . "I just look for a loud one -- the rest can be fixed." He is the one from whom I got the term "piano kit" to refer to a factory-new S&S.

Quote:

... it might serve the forum well if you would actually read, and comprehend, why the thread was authored and use your experience to actually answer the question being asked.

A very valid point has been made that people all too often do not properly read the original post carefully in order to really understand the context and the question asked. They simply jump in and tell people what they want to tell them, without taking the time to perhaps put themselves into the situation of the poster..

Given the original question, quoted above by Beethoven, and the context: it is a pianist asking, and the instrument in question is a brand new Hamburg D, and the piano is located in Turkey, then yes, suggestions about action parts replacement and bridge modification are completely and totally out of place.

Suggesting anything which would result in an immediate voiding of a warranty of a $150,000+ brand new piano is really not helpful. [where is that understatement emoticon when you really need it???]

Then other posters attacked each other for giving Ozgur conflicting advice - assuming that Ozgur would blindly do anything he was told.

Guys, just because Ozgur is in a country we don't hear from very often doesn't mean he's a simpleton. He graciously thanked everyone for their advice; let's move on.

When they banned YouTube, the statistics showed that there were no changes in numbers of visits made to YouTube in Turkey, thanks to the alternative DNS options. After that, they cancelled the ban... Hopefully bans don't stop people.

When they banned YouTube, the statistics showed that there were no changes in numbers of visits made to YouTube in Turkey, thanks to the alternative DNS options. After that, they cancelled the ban... Hopefully bans don't stop people.

Ozgur, post a YouTube video of you and the new piano if you can! I'd love to see and hear it, especially since you play Brahms.

When they banned YouTube, the statistics showed that there were no changes in numbers of visits made to YouTube in Turkey, thanks to the alternative DNS options. After that, they cancelled the ban... Hopefully bans don't stop people.

Ozgur, post a YouTube video of you and the new piano if you can! I'd love to see and hear it, especially since you play Brahms.

Thanks, I will when me and the s&s will be ready, will try to make it soon.

Most Steinway concert grand complaints are due to an action desparetley in need of regulation! If the action sucks, trust me the piano isn't going to perform and sound as it should

Really? - This is a very interesting and unusual concept.

Quote:

A very valid point has been made that people all too often do not properly read the original post carefully in order to really understand the context and the question asked. They simply jump in and tell people what they want to tell them, without taking the time to perhaps put themselves into the situation of the poster..

Ian, The OP is more than happy with the way the piano plays and is not complaining of badly fitted legs or regulation. This thread is about how to treat this piano during the "break in" period. It is American tooners who are suggesting it needs all this work.

I notice you are close to London England. Where are all these new Steinway D's that you have seen that need so much work and the legs don't fit???? Where do you guess this particular D in question was made???

I hope you are not perpetuating information that you have merely overheard and have no direct experience of?. Many toonerds perpetuate rumours that they have no direct experience of.

Yes, rxd, I know, I've read the posts and was only tickling Marty's ribs. Did you see I quoted Ozgur writing about "putting the piano on its legs" before his gracious suggestion that some conservatories with pianos to spare might like to take Keith up on his proposals.

I am not sure if the piano is in Istanbul, where my mother grew up. She told me about going to hear Rubenstein and Solomon playing by the Bosphorous in summer recitals. I am sure she would have been delighted to have heard, and played, the new Hamburg D.

The piano would have come from New York when I first went to Turkey. There was a lot of American money around and I recall my uncle had a Studebaker.