In last few months the Russian expansionism has reached its peak, Russian soldiers are besieging Mariupol, It's already obvious that they are planning on reaching Moldova to connect Transnistria and Crimea to Russia by land. God forbid this but, what if it does happen. no one can rely on desperate Ukraine. what can Romania and Moldova do against Russian aggression if they reach the borders ? honestly if I were those guys id be preparing for the worst, I know Romania is in NATO but that only means NATO will block Bucharest from sending military aid to Moldova, so basically if this were to happen right now, we will have another country falling victim to Russian imperialism.

fullbackace wrote:In last few months the Russian expansionism has reached its peak, Russian soldiers are besieging Mariupol, It's already obvious that they are planning on reaching Moldova to connect Transnistria and Crimea to Russia by land. God forbid this but, what if it does happen. no one can rely on desperate Ukraine. what can Romania and Moldova do against Russian aggression if they reach the borders ? honestly if I were those guys id be preparing for the worst, I know Romania is in NATO but that only means NATO will block Bucharest from sending military aid to Moldova, so basically if this were to happen right now, we will have another country falling victim to Russian imperialism.

Romania could do a haka on the border to scare them off. Failing that I'm not sure we have much else to offer other than grunts with AKs as our army doesn't really have much modern equipment.

I guess the most effective thing would be a preemptive Romanian invasion of Moldova (including Transnistria) closely followed by an expulsion of the local ethnic Russian population on some made up justification that would be supported and published in the western media.

I'd thought of raising this issue to see what the Eastern Europeans on board thought about it, but I wasn't sure if you guys would be up for another political debate after the 'blocking Israel' one (interesting discussion as it was, for the most part). My take on this is that the entire conflict is about NATO, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, moving right up to Russia's doorstep. The Ukraine really is the final buffer zone, and Petro Poroshenko, the latest in a series of corrupt presidents, wants the Ukraine in NATO. He has been working closely with the CIA, which has a long history of supporting brutal regimes around the globe. So Russia isn't going to allow NATO to move in next door, and Eastern Ukraine (like strategically vital Crimea) is ethnically mostly Russian. As Noam Chomsky is fond of pointing out, Americans wouldn't be too chuffed if the Russians were busily surrounding their borders with military bases and practising naval war games just off the coast of California. It's like the Cuban Missile Crisis in reverse, only a lot worse.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

This is very similar to the colonial situation in Africa, the Russians are settlers that have subjugated the indigenous population and are now trying to usurp the native populations by using the military power of the parent country. I wonder what the world would have done to the UK if they had used such military force to ensure the colonial powers stayed in office.

That's a very ironic comment, because the British did do that, all over Africa and as recently as their involvement in Libya, in fact, while the Russians have not done that at all. NATO is driven by the US, which has broken all its post-Cold War promises to Russia and now wants to revive the spectre of war to galvanise an increasingly skeptical population at home and provide justification for its huge military budget and arms trade. Russia is no saint and has undoubtedly been supporting the rebels. It has drawn its red line at the Ukraine, the final buffer zone between it and the most powerful and aggressive military organization on the planet. Anyway, good news today is that peace agreements have been signed between Kiev and pro-Russian rebels. Let's hope it holds.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

Rowan, with your argument you completely disregard the opinion of the countries who are victims of Russian violence. Russia can not and shouldn't be able to dictate what path Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova or any other independent country chooses. and don't say its the puppet governments who want NATO because We had a memorandum basically choosing the path Georgia should focus on after independence, it was simple Russian oriented or West oriented... West won with 80% of votes. Russian borders end where they end and that's where their political influence must end, not a millimeter past the red line. They have big enough land IMHO and don't need extra buffer zones around their border. Besides Baltic states are already in NATO.

Also the entire conflict is not about NATO violating anything, Russia occupied the Georgian autonomous regions back in 1991 which was way before NATO even realized the country of Georgia existed. from the moment that conflict froze Georgia has been seeking ways to take back its regions. if it was only dictated by North Atlantic Alliance than Georgian government would take their advice, which means giving up the occupied regions for good and joining NATO without them, but the answer from Georgia was and will always be negative.

And Sables made a good point, Russia has indeed subjugated the populations of those countries under the argument of "Protecting Russians" which is a ridiculous argument since no one was oppressing those Russians to begin with neither in Georgia nor in Ukraine. and now Both countries have plenty of people who were forcibly displaced from their homes.

The CIA, in collaboration with fascists and racists, helped orchestrate the coup against the elected government of Ukraine in February, selecting Barack Obama's assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland leader of the interim government. Since the end of the Cold War the US has been surrounding Russia with military bases and nuclear weapons, breaking post-Cold War agreements between Bush Sr & Gorbachev. NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe, including the Caucasus, is the biggest since WWII. Imagine this in reverse; a huge Russian military build-up on US borders. More than 90% of Crimeans voted to return to Russia, from which the peninsula was illegally annexed in 1954. Crimea is a vital Black Sea port and would have spelt the end of the Russian Navy had it fallen into NATO hands through Ukranian membership. While I believe Putin initially backed the rebels in predominantly Russian eastern Ukraine, we know that he publicly called for a diplomatic solution to the conflict, and that has come about. Yet we are supposed to feel threatened by Russia once again. About a third of Ukraine's population is Russian-speaking. Most of these are not rebels, of course, but want to live securely in their homeland independent of Moscow. The separist movement came about as a result of Kiev's attacks against them, leading to more than 100,000 (mostly women and children) fleeing to Russia. You may recall that 41 ethnic Russians were burned alive in the trade union HQs while Ukrainian police looked on. This was hailed as a "Bright day in our national history" by the Right Sector. There have been aerial attacks on residential areas, kidnapping and murders of journalists, and bombing of newspapers by Ukrainian forces. Nobody knows who shot down the Malaysian airliner but the Western media has already tried and convicted Putin (without a trace of evidence, nor any credible motive). Regardless, it was a direct result of the conflict NATO expansion has brought to this region. South East Asia, Latin America, South Africa, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, among others, are all too familiar with the story.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

The CIA, in collaboration with fascists and racists, helped orchestrate the coup against the elected government of Ukraine in February, selecting Barack Obama's assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland leader of the interim government.

Who told you this Russia Today or Western conspiracy theorists ?! There was no CIA involvement, there was no need for it Ukrainians just took the matters into their own hands and after the protests everyone found out that it was the better thing to do since the new government was left with a destroyed economy and structurally defective government system in desperate need for fast reforms, The country was crumbling!

Since the end of the Cold War the US has been surrounding Russia with military bases and nuclear weapons

Well good, Otherwise Russian tanks would stand In Poland by now

NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe, including the Caucasus, is the biggest since WWII.

again i can't see the downside, we invited NATO we invited them its not like they invaded us with tanks!

magine this in reverse; a huge Russian military build-up on US borders.

Its called Cuban missile crisis and guess what ? Cuba is still an independent country and Fidel Castro is still freaking alive..... forgotten by death that guy!

More than 90% of Crimeans voted to return to Russia, from which the peninsula was illegally annexed in 1954.

And how many Chechens voted for joining Russia ? or is it ok because the way you talk everything done by Russia is justified meanwhile NATO seems to be the spawn of Satan.

Also if you are Going back to history than Crimea deserves being a Tatar republic more than anything else since Russia commenced ethnic cleansing before annexing and then giving it to Ukraine SSR if one from this chain of actions are illegal than so are all of them, you can't pick and choose since it was done by same laws by the same country. what you say is exact copy of what Russian propagandists state again and again.

About a third of Ukraine's population is Russian-speaking

In the Ukrainian census, 8,334,100 identified themselves as ethnic Russians. 17.3% of the population of Ukraine, the Region with the most significant Russian population is Crimea with 58% Russian population. << this is from an official source its not some mumbo jumbo.

and after Crimean annexation the Russian population %wise would be about 10-13% which is about 1/10.

The separist movement came about as a result of Kiev's attacks against them, leading to more than 100,000 (mostly women and children) fleeing to Russia. You may recall that 41 ethnic Russians were burned alive in the trade union HQs while Ukrainian police looked on. This was hailed as a "Bright day in our national history" by the Right Sector. There have been aerial attacks on residential areas, kidnapping and murders of journalists, and bombing of newspapers by Ukrainian forces.

You are speaking of the people who were asking for independence! and insulting Ukraine while putting up Russian flags everywhere. In any western country they would've been taken out by special forces or arrested, the fact that police couldn't arrest them only shows the inadequacy of the force. But when you are asking to break away from your country don't expect pat on the back.

Nobody knows who shot down the Malaysian airliner but the Western media has already tried and convicted Putin (without a trace of evidence, nor any credible motive)

well the thing is, Ukrainian Forces haven't used Anti Aircraft missiles, not even once. simply because Disguised Russian army couldn't use any planes since Ukraine Guard was controlling every airport in the country. Thus Ukrainian battalions were not armed by Anti aircraft missiles or vehicles so it couldn't have been them, Meanwhile Russians shot down about a dozen planes owned by Ukraine Government.

South East Asia, Latin America, South Africa, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, among others, are all too familiar with the story.

Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Ukraine, Baltics and Belarus are not ? you can't tell me what I've seen based on what you've heard or thought.

Rowan wrote:The CIA, in collaboration with fascists and racists, helped orchestrate the coup against the elected government of Ukraine in February, selecting Barack Obama's assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland leader of the interim government. Since the end of the Cold War the US has been surrounding Russia with military bases and nuclear weapons, breaking post-Cold War agreements between Bush Sr & Gorbachev. NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe, including the Caucasus, is the biggest since WWII. Imagine this in reverse; a huge Russian military build-up on US borders. More than 90% of Crimeans voted to return to Russia, from which the peninsula was illegally annexed in 1954. Crimea is a vital Black Sea port and would have spelt the end of the Russian Navy had it fallen into NATO hands through Ukranian membership. While I believe Putin initially backed the rebels in predominantly Russian eastern Ukraine, we know that he publicly called for a diplomatic solution to the conflict, and that has come about. Yet we are supposed to feel threatened by Russia once again. About a third of Ukraine's population is Russian-speaking. Most of these are not rebels, of course, but want to live securely in their homeland independent of Moscow. The separist movement came about as a result of Kiev's attacks against them, leading to more than 100,000 (mostly women and children) fleeing to Russia. You may recall that 41 ethnic Russians were burned alive in the trade union HQs while Ukrainian police looked on. This was hailed as a "Bright day in our national history" by the Right Sector. There have been aerial attacks on residential areas, kidnapping and murders of journalists, and bombing of newspapers by Ukrainian forces. Nobody knows who shot down the Malaysian airliner but the Western media has already tried and convicted Putin (without a trace of evidence, nor any credible motive). Regardless, it was a direct result of the conflict NATO expansion has brought to this region. South East Asia, Latin America, South Africa, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, among others, are all too familiar with the story.

Sorry, but you really do come across as one of those irksome anti-US anarchists on these threads. Has Russia Today hacked your account?

'No shred of evidence' on the airliner (which was incontrovertibly pro-Russia militiamen btw) yet spout anti-US conspiracies about the CIA. What a joke this post is, heavily twisted towards an utterly incorrect agenda.

Nobody (apart from bellends like Eliota) is falling for this I'm afraid. The USA is a far better country than any of the likes of the Russian regime you are backing. Hence why millions go as far as risking their lives to get there, and are free to criticise all regimes.

That was a shoot-the-messenger style response, if ever I read one, Beeman. You make some excellent points on the rugby forum and obviously have a great deal of insight into the sport. But I'm beginning to wonder how much you do actually understand about international politics. You haven't really addressed any of the points that I made.

Simply put, the idea that Russia under Putin is busily going about trying to reconstruct the Soviet Union is ludicrous. There have actually been relatively few conflicts; just a handful of hotly disputed regions - as there would be after just about any break up of nation or empire - and invariably where ethnic Russians or pro-Russian minorities have been involved. You only need to look at a map to see that US-driven NATO has moved deep into Eastern Europe in violation of its post-WWI agreeements with Moscow, and that the presence of this highly active and aggressive military organization is the basis of the conflict in the region. They have virtually surrounded Russia with military bases (compare US reaction to the presence of missiles in Cuba). The CIA, as is its business, has helped bring a leader friendly to US interests to power amid violence and slaughter; never mind that he is a corrupt oligarch and is bitterly opposed by ethnic Russians in the east of that ethnically diverse nation. Former high-ranking CIA official John Stockwell estimates the CIA has brought about the deaths of 6 million people through covert and illegal operations around the world during a period of four decades. This does not include American bombing of sovereign nations such Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Central America, Grenada, Cambodia & Vietnam, etc, etc, by the way.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

So just to be clear, when over 2000 civilians are killed in Ukraine, it's a "hotly contested region", but when 2000 combined combatants and civilians are killed in Gaza, with an increasing number of those appearing to be combatants, it's a genocide. Just another day in Rowan's fantasy life.

Rowan wrote:That was a shoot-the-messenger style response, if ever I read one, Beeman. You make some excellent points on the rugby forum and obviously have a great deal of insight into the sport. But I'm beginning to wonder how much you do actually understand about international politics. You haven't really addressed any of the points that I made.

That's very cheeky of you to accuse me of ignorance when you have made up and twisted things to suit your laughable 'USA are evil' conspiracies. Ask Eliota Fuimoano-the thicko to give you your login back.

You're post (which was a joke) didn't get a detailed rebuttal as it would just be wasting my time, and I've only made about 2 posts on this section anyway for that reason. I know that whatever I post, you would just continue the conspiratorial lies and twist it to your agenda whatever. You appear to probably think Obama is a murdering fascist, no matter how deluded your conspiracies are though, there's no point as you are obviously very attached to them.

Rowan wrote:Simply put, the idea that Russia under Putin is busily going about trying to reconstruct the Soviet Union is ludicrous.

No but he still uses provocations diversion and propaganda to fire up non existent conflicts in order to create casus belli for his annexations.

There have actually been relatively few conflicts; just a handful of hotly disputed regions - as there would be after just about any break up of nation or empire - and invariably where ethnic Russians or pro-Russian minorities have been involved.

So we should praise oh so generous Russia the most noble and pure of countries for not causing more than 20 wars ?

You only need to look at a map to see that US-driven NATO has moved deep into Eastern Europe in violation of its post-WWI agreeements with Moscow, and that the presence of this highly active and aggressive military organization is the basis of the conflict in the region. They have virtually surrounded Russia with military bases (compare US reaction to the presence of missiles in Cuba)

Post WWI ? are we talking tsars now ?... Yes evil nato has encircled Russia, the cannibal Italians Vicious Frenchies and those blood sucking Belgians are out to destroy our peaceful Russian nationalists who are not Racist, ethnocentric low lives they tremble in fear at the mention of Norway

The CIA, as is its business, has helped bring a leader friendly to US interests to power amid violence and slaughter; never mind that he is a corrupt oligarch and is bitterly opposed by ethnic Russians in the east of that ethnically diverse nation. Former high-ranking CIA official John Stockwell estimates the CIA has brought about the deaths of 6 million people through covert and illegal operations around the world during a period of four decades. This does not include American bombing of sovereign nations such Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Central America, Grenada, Cambodia & Vietnam, etc, etc, by the way.

I hate when people turn every political discussion into HATE AMERICA THREAD!!

First of all this thread had nothing to do with america

Secondly everything I stated was a fact, and then you come back with opinions based on some conspiracy theories in Alex Jones style

Thirdly I don't understand why there is so much hate towards Americans... when in fact world is a far better place with those guys around.. America is a land where everyone is welcome, people value freedom and condemn oppression. those are the values that Eastern Europe strives for.

Lastly, please stop justifying Russian actions based on the actions of other countries. that's like saying the Boston Bombers should be released because they weren't nearly as scary as Jeffry dahmer...

Afganistan was attacked by Russians themselves if you mind remembering.

Central america was a total mess that needed to be cleaned up. and guess what it is far better now after US interventions than it was years ago.

Cambodia ? CAMBODIA?! how can you even mention the country that is responsible for the biggest massacre of its own people known to mankind and use that as a comparison to eastern Europe.

Vietnam was not entirely justified but guess what, US government faced enormous criticism from very adequate and objective citizens of their country, people didn't blindly line up behind their dictator neither were they brainwashed by propaganda or start hailing and cheering on the murderous cynical man that shamelessly boasts of his endeavors.

fullbackace wrote:I hate when people turn every political discussion into HATE AMERICA THREAD!!

I recently stopped to discuss with "Hate America" persons. Since the beginning of mankind nobody has never been able to make a "hate america" person changing his opinion. Not even slightly, not even very slightly. Same thing for the conspiracy lovers: never happened that one of them admitted that "yes, perhaps my opinion was a little exaggerated about that detail". They are and they will always be right. They just love too much their conspiracy theories and their hate against the diabolic Usa to renounce even a part of them. I know a guy, smart and skilled, leader of an important youth political movement in my town: talking with him I discovered that not only he is certain that the Twin Towers have been get down by Cia (more or less the 80% of italian people secretly think that Cia is involved) but also that "Osama Bin Laden never existed, he is a ghost character created by Cia [of course] to justify their stealing-petrol wars". I was astonished, I tried to explain him why it's sure that Obama existed but he negated all the evidences against his theory asking me if I was sure that those evidences were not created by Cia. How can you defeat in a discussion a guy which thinks that all the signs against his theories are falsified? You can't, you just have to stand on your point and he on his point. By the way, one of the points of my friend pro the Osama's inexistence theory was that the entire commando that according to Cia's story killed Osama died few weeks after that event in a air accident; this means, in my friend mind, that Cia created Osama, than decided to kill him with a non existing commando in a non existing home of the non existing family of the non existing Osama, so at the end they had to suppress that commando because they knew too much.

o just to be clear, when over 2000 civilians are killed in Ukraine, it's a "hotly contested region", but when 2000 combined combatants and civilians are killed in Gaza, with an increasing number of those appearing to be combatants, it's a genocide.

No, the genocide in Palestine has been going on for 7 decades and is widely regarded as ethnic cleansing. Of course, anybody can see that Israel, which did not exist when my grandparents were children, now occupies most of what was then Palestinian territory. How did that happen? Same way Europeans settled America and the British settled Australasia, of course. Only this one is ongoing, and the recent massacre of over 2100 Palestinians is just the very latest chapter. By the way, you failed to mention that less than a quarter of Palestinian casualties were 'combatants', while all but 3 of Israeli's comparatively few casualties were in fact 'combatants.' That's a fairly glaring omission (but let's confine any further debate on that issue to the appropriate thread). On this thread I will ask you to explain who has been killing all those civilians in the Ukraine. Are you talking about those burned alive in the trade union HQs, for instance, while Ukranian police looked on? Are you talking about those killed by the neo-Nazi Azov battalion, perhaps?

"Anti-American" is playing the same card as the Zionists play when they talk about anti-Semitism. There is no connection between opposing American military interventions around the world and not liking Americans, just as there is no connect between opposing Zionist colonization of Palestine and not liking Jews. Many Americans oppose their nation's military interventions, of course, while many prominent Jews have spoken out against Zionism. Besides, as mentioned earlier, a former high-ranking CIA official has publicly stated that organization has killed an estimated 6 million people through its covert actions - as part of imperial American expansionism - and most of these poor individuals were in the Third World. That's why he titled his book 'The 3rd World War.' So, what, are we supposed to love and admire America? Do African-Americans love and admire the US, I wonder? Do Native Americans? Do so-called Hispanics (many actually Native American themselves, but from south of the border drawn up by Europeans).

I think we need to stick to the topic here. We're talking about what's going on in the Ukraine now, and the good news is at present a ceasefire exists. But personally I regard the entire conflict to have been brought about by NATO expansion into Eastern Europe and Russia's unwillingness to allow a powerful military alliance hostile to them to move in next door. Incidentally, the majority of Ukrainians are also against NATO membership, but the new Poroshenko regime (brought to power by a coup supported by the CIA) wants in. Indeed, even as the ceasefire was being agreed upon, NATO was planning a 'rapid reaction' force to be deployed in Eastern Europe, and the eternal warmonger Britain is sending troops to the Ukraine. I have no doubt the Russians have been up to all sorts of nasty tricks as well, including backing the rebels in eastern Ukraine. Putin is probably the first Russian leader to have stood up to the West since the end of the Cold War, but he is certainly no angel, and the crisis in Ukraine amounts to yet another proxy war between the former Cold War foes.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

I would rather live under the freedom of an American democracy, or a European democracy than under any other government.

I am going to pull my Mr 'Lived through the period, There on the ground.' card here and say at present I am speaking from experience in living with a government that openly practices negative and harmful actions against its own people.

Fair point, Sables, but you might not think that way if you were African-American, Native American or Hispanic, to be fair. For what it's worth, I've lived in both the US and Russia - and certainly preferred America. But then again, I'd rather live in Spain or Turkey (or many other countries) than America. Anyway,I don't think we can really gauge the rights or wrongs of what is going on n the Ukraine by talking about which is the better society to live in, America or Russia.

The American objective, with its political and economic sanctions, is to weaken Russian influence within its own geographic region and turn it into a pariah state (This according to the NY Times). So, as Noam Chomsky has commented, the red lines have been drawn at Russia's own borders. But where are America's red lines? Where are NATO's? Not at Eastern Europe, certainly, and not at Latin America, the Middle East or Cuba either. Not only has the US driven NATO deep into Eastern Europe, it is making all sorts of provocative noises about using military force against Russia. If we go back to the post Cold War agreements, we see that Gorbachev accepted the reunification of Germany on the understanding NATO would not move "one inch eastward." But NATO proceeded to push right up to Russian borders, regardless, with Ukraine the last major buffer zone left. The previous government wanted nothing to do with NATO membership. The one the CIA helped replace it with, by way of a coup, is already talking about joining the alliance. Chomsky furthermore compares the annexation of Crimea to America's own annexation of Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. But the major difference is that the Crimea was historically Russian and maintains an ethnic Russian majority, who recently voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia. The Russian navy had remained based off the Crimea all along under mutual agreement. But the US has no claim whatsoever on Guantanamo.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

Millions of hispanics have risked their lives running across the desert to make it into that country

Obviously they have a better standard of life. But do they love and admire a country which discriminates them and incarcerates them far more than it does Caucasians? & do they enjoy the police brutality which has become so common with the militarization of law enforcement in predominantly non-white communities?

Crimea was historically Tatar. It was only annexed by Russia in the lat 18th century.

True, it's been a lot of different things, and was Greek and Persian before it was Tatar. But the point was Russia has at least some historical claim to the Crimea whereas America has none to Guantanamo.

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

Millions of hispanics have risked their lives running across the desert to make it into that country

Obviously they have a better standard of life. But do they love and admire a country which discriminates them and incarcerates them far more than it does Caucasians? & do they enjoy the police brutality which has become so common with the militarization of law enforcement in predominantly non-white communities?

Any of those problems are much less than they are in the countries they originate from.

Rowan wrote:

Crimea was historically Tatar. It was only annexed by Russia in the lat 18th century.

True, it's been a lot of different things, and was Greek and Persian before it was Tatar. But the point was Russia has at least some historical claim to the Crimea whereas America has none to Guantanamo.

Canalina wrote:I recently stopped to discuss with "Hate America" persons. Since the beginning of mankind nobody has never been able to make a "hate america" person changing his opinion. Not even slightly, not even very slightly. Same thing for the conspiracy lovers: never happened that one of them admitted that "yes, perhaps my opinion was a little exaggerated about that detail". They are and they will always be right. They just love too much their conspiracy theories and their hate against the diabolic Usa to renounce even a part of them. I know a guy, smart and skilled, leader of an important youth political movement in my town: talking with him I discovered that not only he is certain that the Twin Towers have been get down by Cia (more or less the 80% of italian people secretly think that Cia is involved) but also that "Osama Bin Laden never existed, he is a ghost character created by Cia [of course] to justify their stealing-petrol wars". I was astonished, I tried to explain him why it's sure that Obama existed but he negated all the evidences against his theory asking me if I was sure that those evidences were not created by Cia. How can you defeat in a discussion a guy which thinks that all the signs against his theories are falsified? You can't, you just have to stand on your point and he on his point. By the way, one of the points of my friend pro the Osama's inexistence theory was that the entire commando that according to Cia's story killed Osama died few weeks after that event in a air accident; this means, in my friend mind, that Cia created Osama, than decided to kill him with a non existing commando in a non existing home of the non existing family of the non existing Osama, so at the end they had to suppress that commando because they knew too much.

Mod's comment: removed some nastyness

Rowan has hammered out thousands of words on these threads bless him, what he doesn't realise he's spending hours wasting his time on an audience of about 5 posters of which he is fooling 0.

Rowan, above you say that Israel did not exist when your Grandparents were children, I dont know how old you or your grandparents are, but might I respectfully refer you to the following:

"After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, "get up take the child and his mother, and go back to the land of Israel, because those who tried to kill the child are dead" So, Joseph got up , took the child and his mother and went back to the land of Israel".... The Gospel according to Mathew.2:19-21.

To just say that it did not exist is a little naughty. the World did not begin in 1947-48. or are you saying that all the Bibles were rewritten when your grandparents were born?

Aww Come on Rowan, all I was doing was replying to a comment that you made, no one else. I have felt that you are a somewhat inclined on some subjects to dismiss opinions that are contrary to yours as incorrect or erroneous. sometimes a little too quickly.