And I love people who are ignorant about dog breeds and support breed bans.

My parents own English Mastiffs. Their neighboring county has banned pit bulls, staffordshires, bulldogs, and yes, mastiffs, among others. But did they ban Rhodesian Ridgebacks, or Cane Corsos, or Chow Chows? Nope.

The reason why "pit bull" bite cases are so sensationalized is because of their bite strength. They are NOT an easy to own dog. These animals are STRONG ALPHA and STUBBORN. You have to be a very, VERY good dog owner and VERY on your game to train such an animal correctly. By itself this isn't a bad thing, a lot of dogs are like this. Old English Bulldogs, for example, and dalmatians also suffer from being bullheaded. But what this means is, absolute idiots who aren't hardass enough get a dog that they can't control and then shock happens when the dog goes out of control.

Do not get a dog unless you know how to own a dog. Do not get a stubborn dog unless you are very, very good at dogs. Do your research. Any dog can be a potential hazard, any dog can carry rabies. But any dog can be a great pet to if you know how to handle them.

Know what dogs have always gone after me? Shelties, and chihuahuas.

/but seriously who in their right mind bans a mastiff?//my parents mastiffs have all been afraid of my guinea pigs, for crying out loud

I simply can't quote all the bad information posted, so I'm just going to post some facts.

Pit bulls are not inherently vicious, aggressive or stubborn. Pit bull do better in temperament testing than 121 other breeds. Pit bulls pass at ~90%, the breeds they beat have an average passing rate of ~70%. American Temperament Test Society, Inc

Pits are good natured and particularly eager to please. They are excellent family dogs and excellent dogs to have around young children. They are extremely tolerant of kids pulling their tails, "petting" that's actually hitting, etc.

Pit bulls do not have super-strong bite strength. Bite strength is a function of the size and shape of the jaw. Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic recently tested the bite strength of three breeds. The rottweiler and the German Shepard had stronger bites than the pit. Also, pits do not have "locking" jaws. They have the exact same jaw structure as every other dog.

A dog that lives in the back yard and has not been properly socialized and trained is not a pet dog or a family dog. It's a resident dog.

blueviking:Sweet looking pup, right there. And so much of THIS...we suspect one of ours is part Pit or some similar looking breed, mixed with GSD but, in that manner his is VERY willful and needs a firm hand, plus he's in his teenage years. But he's a sweetheart, in the end, and we've also got a black lab that's very zen and tempers him.

[i91.photobucket.com image 478x799]

Sgt Stubby was a decorated war dog from World War 1. The most decorated dog of his era, and the first dog awarded such, I believe.

NotARocketScientist:lol, yup.My sister had a room mate bring a stray dog home he found in a nearby park. It was a pit that had been badly mistreated. They figured that whoever had her before was trying to make her into a fighting dog, but she was so good natured that it couldn't be done. That dog was afraid of everyone but my sister.

People who do that to dogs should get the same treatment.

CSS time. This is Starr, when she was still healthy. She has since passed away. She was an English Mastiff. The guinea pig is Mustard Plug.

Starr was given to my parents by a breeder for free. She went straight from the breeder to the vet for several hundred dollars in work. She had a dislocated hip, broken eye socket, detached retina, twice broken jaw, and broken ribs. She was less a dog and more a maintenance project. She never regained sight in that damaged eye. She spent years suffering what appeared to be canine post traumatic stress disorder. Scared of men. Scared of large men in black coats, in particular. She'd charge through doorways in a panic, but with her crippled vision this turned into repeat hilarity because with her 165 pounds she could plow through sliding screen doors and would if she had to pee.

She adopted my brother. He was her puppy. Devoted, loving, panic stricken dog. In her last year of life she adopted a six week old kitten that had straggled into the yard after a bad storm. My parents still have the cat. She was eventually taken down by a series of strokes, but even as her mobility failed and it took a two person assist to take her outside in the dead of winter, she never stopped being happy to see you, or the faded shadows of you she could make out around her blindness and cataracts. It was the second series of strokes that ended it.

After her death, at nearly 13 (mind blowing for the breed), the breeder fessed up. Apparently she'd originally been one of their puppies and she'd been sold across state lines. It eventually got back to them that the son of a biatch who bought her was beating the ever loving fark out of her. They were so enraged they drove to his house, broke in, committed felony dog napping and stashed the "evidence" (her) with us for safe keeping. That was why she was in such a state when we got her. It was only after her death that they felt comfortable enough to explain to us why she'd been like that.

Mom's told me several times that if she was ever in the area of the asshole that did that to Starr, I was getting a phonecall for bail because she'd be paying the treatment back with a baseball bat. Frankly, I wasn't even upset at the idea.

Wow... Awesome. I almost forwarded that to my wife before thinking, and then realized that she wouldn't handle it very well... We had to put our dog down last weekend, he'd been with us over 12 years, and he would have done the same, no doubt about it. Dogs are often better than people.

Phins:Only a tiny percentage of dogs cannot be rehabilitated, and it's because of the way they were treated. It has nothing to do with genetics or breed.

I'll disagree here, at least on the 'way they were treated' part. Consider human mental disorders. You can get similar disorders with dogs, and some lead to increased violence. Consider the dog equivalent of a autistic child, or just one with some equivalent of Down's.

Breeding is still important to help prevent this sort of stuff, we're much more free to be ruthless when it comes to eliminating problems.

If the bad behavior is solely because of treatment, I'll argue those are the ones you CAN rehabilitate. It's the ones you can't that have the inherited or congenital mental disorders.

I used to work at a pet store. Of all of those little shiats to come in, only TWO were ever nice dogs. The first one was a chihuahua that was actually retarded--as in it had whatever the dog-version of Downs Syndrome was. She'd been born with no teeth at all, and greeted everyone with the enthusiasm of a lab who thinks you're going to toss a ball. Very sweet but very stupid. The other chihuahua was heavily socialized and trained by a Korean family who took their dog-raising duties very, very seriously. At 12 weeks this chi had perfect form while heeling, and it passed its CGC at six months. Probably the only actually well-behaved chihuahua I've ever met. From what I could see it got a TON of training, a couple training sessions a day from the kids and at least one a day from the parents.

The problem with chihuahuas is that people mistake small size for training for some reason, so they don't socialize them and let them get away with all kinds of shiat. Chihuahuas are probably the most aggressive breed of dog, but because they are so small people don't take them seriously and breeders don't bother to breed out viciousness. The end result is a breed that for the most part consists of spoiled little shiats who would love more than anything to rip your face off. Fortunately they are too small to actually do that.

spidermilk: HOWEVER. I do believe that simply do to their genetics (or certain health problems) some dogs are dangerously aggressive and cannot be rehabilitated. Some people can care for these dogs and keep them and others safe (mostly by keeping the dog away from any strangers). The dog didn't chose to be bad, but due to genetic misfortune (or bad breeders) it has a temperament so fearful and aggressive that the dog is dangerous. It isn't always someone's fault, not all aggressive dogs are that way because a person made them that way, and not all dogs can be fixed even by dog training/behavior experts or even with meds.

Only a tiny percentage of dogs cannot be rehabilitated, and it's because of the way they were treated. It has nothing to do with genetics or breed.

I volunteer for a rescue group and I'm on the behavior team. That means I work with the dogs that have behavior problems, including aggression.We have 50-60 dogs in our behavior program at any given time. I work with all kinds of dogs, including plenty that look like pits (I say "look like pits" because it's nearly impossible to identify breeds by sight). So I know what I'm talking about when I say dogs can be rehabilitated and it has nothing to do with breed. The pit-type dogs are actually easier to work with, they learn and respond to training very quickly.

* This is my pet Land Shark, Cuddles, who gives me kisses every morning and makes me scrambled eggs just the way i like them* Punish the deed, not the psychotic breed* Other dogs kill people, too. Like that Pomeranian and the baby the one time* Bad owner, not bad dog* BSL doesn't work* Again, a picture of Cuddles, who i rescued from an animal shelter and who just loves children and kittens and plays the cello* If cats were bigger they'd be illegal* If you ban one breed the next worst breed will be next until no dogs will exist anywhere, ever, you monsters* CSB - one time my Land Shark ate my neighbour's cat and we laughed and laughed and laughed* Here's Cuddles doing trigonometry and serving soup to the homeless

And you don't think that's pertinent? So even if you forgo the "aggressive by nature" argument, then ability to do harm is the next line item in what makes something dangerous.

That's roughly akin to "Just as many people get shot by nerf guns, they just don't die like with automatic weapons."

I think airplane crashes are perfectly deadly. But that doesn't make me scared to ride in one. The chances of the actual crash happening is very low. There are so many things out there that CAN KILL YOU, but would to be so afraid of these things that you refuse to live your life?

Do you drive? Don't you know how dangerous that is?! What kind of loving parent would do something so reckless as to put an innocent child in a car, even knowing the danger? Do you know how many people DIE each year due to food poisoning? My grandma did last year(true story). Why would you bring your innocent, defenseless children to a restaurant? Do you go to the bank or to the store? Those get robbed you know...

Believe it or not, most pit owners are NOT getting mauled. I won't live in fear of things that have VERY LITTLE chance to kill me, thank you.

In L.A. I was one of the few foster that would work with Pit Bulls and after taking in and working with 10 pits and pit mixes, the ONLY one I had a problem with came out of a fighting ring.

Last September, someone dumped this little girl in the woods near my apartment complex.

She was so scared of people no one could get near her for four months. I fed her, but she would not let me get near her either. She finally got so lonely, she began to follow me and my first dog though our hour-long morning walk. Then they began to play together. There was one brief tussle where my boxer mix established her dominance and that was it. (The entire time she has shown no aggression and has been incredibly patient my excitable boxer.) After a couple weeks of this at the end of January, I was finally able to get a leash around her and get her inside. Just in time too as she was unspayed and going into heat.

She was so timid that unless we were going out, she stayed in one spot at the foot of my bed for hours at a time. I mean all day. For months!. She is *just* starting to come out into the front room to join my dog or come into the study to join me. And to this day, she has never even tried to bark. Beyond a few happy grunts when she is being petted, she is completely silent

Someone farked this dog up, so don't farking tell me it's the breed.

Yes, Pit Bulls are a dominant breed (not "aggressive," any dog can be aggressive, Pits, Rotties, Akitas, Chows, Ridgebacks, etc. are dominant) and not for inexperienced dog owner, but I have encountered shiat-Zu's *far* more aggressive than any Pit Bull I have ever worked with, including the one that came out of the fighting ring.

The problem is when the AKC dropped the APBT as a registered breed, the breed suddenly became affordable to people who should never have dogs in the first place. Someone drops $1000 - 1800$ on a Rottweiler puppy, they are going to take care of their investment. Someone throws fifty bucks at a backyard breeder for a Pit, they probably don't know shiat and they are not going have the same investment in the dog.

If you ban pits today, the same farkwitz who farked up these dogs now will just pick or create a new breed to fark up in order to extend their penises.

danfrank:Degenz: But the story reminds me of a new law out of Virginia (I think) designating pit bulls and rotweillors as dangerous after some kids got mauled.

If there is such a law, it's new. I used to live next to pit bulls in VA. Idiot owners, dogs escaped constantly and barked/snarled at me and my young sons.

The law at the time was that a dog, of any breed, cannot be deemed "dangerous" until after it bites someone. So despite threatening behavior and negligent owners, it basically had to maul someone before anything could be done. There wouldn't have been a "bite", it would have been a mauling. Thank god they moved.

/dog lover//considered rat poison in hamburger meat for those monsters

I just caught a little bit of the story on CNN last week and honestly wasn't paying that much attention. It could have been in Maryland, I don't know. It's sad people will do such things to what are mostly beautiful creatures.

Nick the What:Salt Lick Steady: Salt Lick Steady: Nick the What: So we are all in agreement that it's not pit bulls that kill people, it's people that kill people by pit bull killing? Good!

Now, what to do about people being killed by pit bulls.

Hmmm? I know! Let's post more anecdotes about pit bulls that did not kill anyone.

Lemme guess, you're from a cold state?

*checks profile*

Aaand blammo.

The reason you see what you want to see is because nigh 70% of the dogs down here are pit or pit mixes.

meh. They're all domesticated wolves (Canis lupus familiaris) to me. Pet ownership is juvenile. When I grew up I stopped wanting to possess cute and cuddly things. In this case it appears peoples desire to own a pet has resulted in babys being mauled to death. Fark it. Ban them all. If it saves a human life and eases the suffering of a dogs life, then I say it's worth it.

I'd rather live with a bunch of dogs than you, and I think most other people would too.

/Caring about stuff is so juvenile, I only contemplate and dismiss things since I am so grown up.

Gecko Gingrich:If that dog would be included in a list of "pit bull attacks" it's only fair that it be included in "pit bull does good".

It's simple: pit bulls don't exist as a breed, unless you have one and it's awesome, or a pit bull does something good and it disproves the breed's reputation. But if a pit bull does something bad, you have to punish the deed and not the breed, and anyway, the breed doesn't really exist anyway.

Nick the What:Salt Lick Steady: Salt Lick Steady: Nick the What: So we are all in agreement that it's not pit bulls that kill people, it's people that kill people by pit bull killing? Good!

Now, what to do about people being killed by pit bulls.

Hmmm? I know! Let's post more anecdotes about pit bulls that did not kill anyone.

Lemme guess, you're from a cold state?

*checks profile*

Aaand blammo.

The reason you see what you want to see is because nigh 70% of the dogs down here are pit or pit mixes.

meh. They're all domesticated wolves (Canis lupus familiaris) to me. Pet ownership is juvenile. When I grew up I stopped wanting to possess cute and cuddly things. In this case it appears peoples desire to own a pet has resulted in babys being mauled to death. Fark it. Ban them all. If it saves a human life and eases the suffering of a dogs life, then I say it's worth it.

The world isn't black and white kid, not everyone goes shopping at the mall for a pet.

9beers:Pit bulls are at the top of the most instinctively violent breed of dog, that's why people train them to be violent. The problem is, even without that training, they're still prone to becoming that vicious killing machine. There are countless incidents of pit bulls mauling people when they were never trained to fight and their owners had never had any problems with them in the past. People shouldn't be allowed to own them no more than they should be allowed to own a wolf or a bear. Round them up and kill them all.

Every time I see someone use the term "countless" I just assume that they can't count very high.

namegoeshere:I would be fine with some sort of licensing class requirement. You would need to attend a class and learn about the needs of the breed you wish to own. You would have to demonstate a knowledge of that breed's special needs. I would even be okay if the cost of this class was a bit steep. If you're not willing to pay, you don't need to own that dog.

/was in social work doing home visits for years//saw infinite scrawny, mean pits in tiny apartments with small children///often leashed to door knobs 24/7////not one of them needed to be there

I'm fine with this being a requirement for owning ANY dog.

Actually I'm fine with it being a requirement for owning children for that matter.

Ringshadow:Starr was given to my parents by a breeder for free. She went straight from the breeder to the vet for several hundred dollars in work. She had a dislocated hip, broken eye socket, detached retina, twice broken jaw, and broken ribs. She was less a dog and more a maintenance project. She never regained sight in that damaged eye. She spent years suffering what appeared to be canine post traumatic stress disorder. Scared of men. Scared of large men in black coats, in particular. She'd charge through doorways in a panic, but with her crippled vision this turned into repeat hilarity because with her 165 pounds she could plow through sliding screen doors and would if she had to pee.

She adopted my brother. He was her puppy. Devoted, loving, panic stricken dog. In her last year of life she adopted a six week old kitten that had straggled into the yard after a bad storm. My parents still have the cat. She was eventually taken down by a series of strokes, but even as her mobility failed and it took a two person assist to take her outside in the dead of winter, she never stopped being happy to see you, or the faded shadows of you she could make out around her blindness and cataracts. It was the second series of strokes that ended it.

After her death, at nearly 13 (mind blowing for the breed), the breeder fessed up. Apparently she'd originally been one of their puppies and she'd been sold across state lines. It eventually got back to them that the son of a biatch who bought her was beating the ever loving fark out of her. They were so enraged they drove to his house, broke in, committed felony dog napping and stashed the "evidence" (her) with us for safe keeping. That was why she was in such a state when we got her. It was only after her death that they felt comfortable enough to explain to us why she'd been like that.

Mom's told me several times that if she was ever in the area of the asshole that did that to Starr, I was getting a phonecall for bail because she'd be ...

i love how everyone jumps on the "well boo, she is an alcoholic wagon so this story loses all relevance". it's depressing that her issue makes others see her as less of a person.

i saw this story on the local news last night and they went into more detail (masshole here). the dog was adopted by her son to help the mother. he got the dog from a shelter and gave it to her because she needed some kind of companionship. they interviewed the son and he mentioned that she had been recovering for years but an unexpected family event caused her to relapse. and if any of you have ever relapsed i'm sure you understand that you start hitting the bottle just as hard as you did before you quit, but your body has forgotten how to handle that amount of booze so you just become uber shiatfaced.

the fact that she was drunk/is an alcoholic shouldn't make the fact that the dog saved someone from certain death any less awesome. but i'm sure if she passed out from diabetes or something you'd be just as opinionated and assume she was irresponsible about monitoring her levels.

stevarooni:Degenz: Fell asleep on train tracks? Just proves the point that it's not pit bulls who are the problem, it's their dumb ass human companions.

Kind of what I was thinking. Great story of a brave and loyal dog and all, but (FTFA):

David Lanteigne has adored this pit bull since recuing Lilly from a shelter to be a companion for his mom who suffers from alcoholism.

Lilly is a service dog for alcoholism. :D Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are.

Yea it is. But the story reminds me of a new law out of Virginia (I think) designating pit bulls and rotweillors as dangerous after some kids got mauled.

Down the road from my house there are a bunch of used car lots all protected by big ass German Shepherds. They're just a bunch of big sweet hearts but the kids and stupid people agitate the hell out of them because the dogs are behind a chain link fence and they can do it with impunity. But I can stick my hand through the gate and pet them because they know I'm not a threat and I show them a little respect. I walk down that road daily and talk to them like they are my buddies.

So no one else noticed this was a policewoman passed out drunk on the train tracks?

It was the mother of a cop, she wan't a cop herself.

But it is true. All pit bulls are face rippers, no matter how they're raised.Just ask the internet, it'll tell ya.

lol, yup.My sister had a room mate bring a stray dog home he found in a nearby park. It was a pit that had been badly mistreated. They figured that whoever had her before was trying to make her into a fighting dog, but she was so good natured that it couldn't be done. That dog was afraid of everyone but my sister.

My Dad flipped when he heard we had adopted a dog that was half German Shepherd, telling me I had bad judgment, etc. We went to the rescue (Home at Last) and visited with many dogs. We weighed each one carefully for multiple factors and Pong had the best personality out of all of them. He's 7 months old now and is super intelligent, thanks to the German Shepherd in him, extremely loyal to his family and our friends, and although cautious about strangers, quickly learns to hang with them once he takes his cue from me that they're guests and not intruders. I love him to pieces.

The coonhound side of him needed companionship, so we adopted Dig Dug, a Lab/Beagle mix, just a few months afterwards. Pong took to him immediately and the two are like peas in a pod. You'd think they were from the same litter because they're so close. :) "Awwwww-inspiring" pic of the two below.

Dog ownership is rewarding, but like with raising children, you have to put some frickin' effort into it!

They should post a picture of the owner, with name and address underneath, under anything listed as a "pit bull attack". The blame for such things falls squarely on the owner. Any powerful/mid-sized/large animal that is not properly socialized can be exceptionally dangerous. Any such dog that has a douchebag owner who has trained that dog to be aggressive for kicks and giggles or misguided machismo is definitely dangerous. I consider the owners who do that kind of thing even more dangerous than the dog in some ways. I've owned pits and pit crosses in the past and they are loyal, loving dogs when properly trained and socialized in the same way you should train and socialize any other dog.

/has been bit by "lap dogs" a couple times in the past, but never by a pit or pit cross

iheartscotch:Good dog! I see the OMG it's a pitbull crowd is here. There's no such thing as a bad dog; there are only poorly trained and poorly socialized dogs. Both of which are the owner's responsibility to rectify when the dog is small. Also, certain breeds get a bad rap because of irresponsible owners. Any dog can rip your face off if it isn't properly trained and socialized.

While I believe that the owner has far, far more to do with a dog's behavior than the breed, (I'm thinking 90/10) I refuse to believe that the breed has NOTHING to do with the temperament of any canine.

/all jack russell terriers are assholes//every. single. one.

I would agree with your first statement to a degree. It is still people that are breeding out the good things of pitbulls and breeding in the bad traits. Back in the 1940s people did the exact same thing with Dobermans. It wasn't until the mid 70s where a group of Doberman lovers decided they were getting too bad of a rap and started breeding the bad traits back out of the Doberman. Until some group does that to pitbulls and until we get this thug image of pitbulls out of our society we will still continue to see people being hurt by these dogs. It is a shame, pitbulls are wonderful dogs who are very loyal. My 65 pound pitbull thinks she is a lap dog and the only attack you will get is her sloberingly licking you!

While I believe that the owner has far, far more to do with a dog's behavior than the breed, (I'm thinking 90/10) I refuse to believe that the breed has NOTHING to do with the temperament of any canine.

To reiterate, since I know someone will holler about good/bad breeds: The owner/trainer/raiser has overwhelmingly the greatest effect on a dog's disposition- but to imply or say that the breed has NOTHING to do with it suggests that you've never owned or raised dogs.

/all jack russell terriers are assholes//every. single. one.

You haven't met Rosie. When my brother-in-laws rescued her she didn't even know how to play. Spent the first 7 yrs. in a cage for breeding. Sweetest pup in the world. Their other Jack, Freddie? He's an asshole.

Good dog! I see the OMG it's a pitbull crowd is here. There's no such thing as a bad dog; there are only poorly trained and poorly socialized dogs. Both of which are the owner's responsibility to rectify when the dog is small. Also, certain breeds get a bad rap because of irresponsible owners. Any dog can rip your face off if it isn't properly trained and socialized.

grinding_journalist:While I believe that the owner has far, far more to do with a dog's behavior than the breed, (I'm thinking 90/10) I refuse to believe that the breed has NOTHING to do with the temperament of any canine.

I'm not sure why anyone would ever argue that with a straight face. Humans have been breeding dogs for many years to select for various desired traits, a lot of which are behavioral. To think pits aren't predisposed towards violence is delusional. Kind of the same reason I won't get a german shepherd right now, as much as I'd like one -- just not a great choice with toddler age children running around. When the kids get a little older, definitely.

While I believe that the owner has far, far more to do with a dog's behavior than the breed, (I'm thinking 90/10) I refuse to believe that the breed has NOTHING to do with the temperament of any canine.

To reiterate, since I know someone will holler about good/bad breeds: The owner/trainer/raiser has overwhelmingly the greatest effect on a dog's disposition- but to imply or say that the breed has NOTHING to do with it suggests that you've never owned or raised dogs.