<p>Well in the books about metru Nui, the mask forgersMake it so carefully a hairline crack shouldn't show!Because otherwise the power can't flow through it,But doesn't that mean if you get a crack or a scratch from battle wouldn't it be the same bad?hmmm I vaugly remember the book saying something along the lines of "the slightest flaw would render the mask powerless" which makes me think if it only applies to the mask making Process or just in general.I just got another idea thanks to Makuta matatawhen the vahi had a crack in it on the seafloor the power was flowing out changing the time around it,but not only did the vahi do it but also the ignika!that got me thinking is that what happens when making a mask and you accidentally create a dimple?would a miru with a gouge just suddenly float up to space?but even more so are the masks in the protodermis reclamation yards, do they leak power before they hit the furnace?

There was a lot of wear-n-tear on both masks, armor and tools in the original comics. They started smoothing things out later on, but judging from appearances I don't think a few battle scratches would do much. A full-on crack that breaks of pieces, however, would likely cause the mask to not work right.

A Volitak sounds like a half-mix of invisibility and silence powers. Making it malfunction would likely just make it even less effective at either or both, not suddenly able to "overcharge" into full invisibility.

A Volitak sounds like a half-mix of invisibility and silence powers. Making it malfunction would likely just make it even less effective at either or both, not suddenly able to "overcharge" into full invisibility.

Yeah, if your opponent hits hard enough. Especially in Brutaka's case, he fought the Toa Inika, the Barraki (for a bit, I remember), Teridax, and giant squids (I know there's only one, just saying), and his mask ended up in a lot of tiny cracks, preventing it from functioning properly and sending Takanuva to alternate dimensions.

Vakama specifically stated in Time Trap (when he saw the time energy leaking out of a crack in the Vahi) that it wouldn't work like that for a normal mask. This only happened because it was a Legendary Mask, and when you destroy those, the energy of their power (whether Time, Life, or Creation) is released catastrophically. This is not true for other masks; they just stop working, even if it's just a hairline fracture.

Yes, even just a tiny crack gotten from battle will do that. But masks aren't so easy to crack like that. Usually either it will bounce off the magnetic attachment to your face and remain intact, or it will shatter completely. They're tougher than, say, your typical china dishes.

Vakama specifically stated in Time Trap (when he saw the time energy leaking out of a crack in the Vahi) that it wouldn't work like that for a normal mask. This only happened because it was a Legendary Mask, and when you destroy those, the energy of their power (whether Time, Life, or Creation) is released catastrophically. This is not true for other masks; they just stop working, even if it's just a hairline fracture.

Yes, even just a tiny crack gotten from battle will do that. But masks aren't so easy to crack like that. Usually either it will bounce off the magnetic attachment to your face and remain intact, or it will shatter completely. They're tougher than, say, your typical china dishes.

I think only Legendary masks are powerful enough for power to leak and affect their surroundings. Great or Noble masks just become powerless if severely damaged. Although, some like Brutaka's Olmak could still function even when damaged, although not as well.

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Although, some like Brutaka's Olmak could still function even when damaged, although not as well.

That's a good point, there is that case, isn't there? Then again, do we know what sort of damage it had? Wasn't it something like being fused to Vezon's face? Or am I confusing that with the Ignika which previously was fused to his face... *doesn't have time to check*

I'm guessing masks with a little damage would be more likely to malfunction than just stop working altogether. Like, a cracked Hau could only create a partial barrier, or the barrier may dissipate for a split second.

Edited by Makuta_of_Oz, Feb 27 2013 - 09:01 PM.

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I'm guessing masks with a little damage would be more likely to malfunction than just stop working altogether. Like, a cracked Hau could only create a partial barrier, or the barrier may dissipate for a split second.

That's what happened wih the Vahi and Brutaka. In the Vahi's case, a small crack made small time changes around its area. In the Olmak's case, it had a lot of tiny cracks in it and it ended up sending Takanuva to alternate dimensions instead of directly to Karda Nui.

The Olmak was a special case, so to speak. Like Bonesii said, regular mask word stop working if they received the tiniest of cracks. Brutaka's Olmak was being corroded away at by the mutagen in the pit, which was harmfull to anything from the MU. While Brutaka was in the pit, portals to other places didn't open up all around him, his mask just no longer functioned properly.

Although, some like Brutaka's Olmak could still function even when damaged, although not as well.

That's a good point, there is that case, isn't there? Then again, do we know what sort of damage it had? Wasn't it something like being fused to Vezon's face? Or am I confusing that with the Ignika which previously was fused to his face... *doesn't have time to check*

Brutaka's Olmak was damaged from prolonged fighting on Voya Nui and later by his minor mutation and the somewhat corrosive waters in the Pit. I seem to recall it being described as having tiny cracks and a worn appearance, but I haven't looked for a quote. The mask was later shattered by Terdiax in the core processor, though that would of course have happened even if the mask had been in pristine condition.Vezon's Olmak was a different one, the one he looted after Makuta Tridax was killed. He managed to get himself portaled to the chamber where Helryx and Keetongu were confronting the Energized Protodermis Entity, which allowed them to escape and him to get the mask absorbed into himself.In any case, the damaged Olmak didn't function quite right. This would likely hold true for any other mask as well.

It's like an iPhone's screen being cracked. One smal scratch is nothing important. A crack is unfortunate, and you wouldn't buy it if it was already cracked, but it still works fine. But if the screen was smashed up like Brutaka's mask, chances are it doesn't work so well anymore. Same with masks. Mask makers try to make pristine masks because if it broke before reaching its recipient it would not meet some kind of quality standard. Meaning the slightest flaw causes the mask maker to trash the whole thing.

What makes masks and their powers so fragile? Like a crack will make it malfunction and even in making a small mistake will result in the mask getting trashed. Yet the Great Masks worn by Toa survive after a lot of battles.

well, in the case of great masks and noble (not powerless, I think), you have this energy built up inside of it that, if you get your mask cracked, it's energy leaks out. not like the Ignika, but like a cracked waer pipe. water doesn't really do much, power wise, so it doesn't affect much.

What makes masks and their powers so fragile? Like a crack will make it malfunction and even in making a small mistake will result in the mask getting trashed. Yet the Great Masks worn by Toa survive after a lot of battles.

As I pointed out, they're actually not all that fragile. Less fragile than say a china dish or a clay pot. More fragile than typical metal. Somewhere in between.

I don't see Kanohi as any more fragile than normal metal, actually. It's just that the increased natural strength of a biomechanical being, plus all the special powers that gets thrown around, can more easily dent and scratch metal. In terms of set, masks could be damaged by the Nui-Jaga's stinger, a relatively thick stinger with a fierce spring mechanism. This was plastic meeting plastic. Metal meeting metal is not quite the same, but the relative level of damage would likely be the same.Masks have been destroyed by such things as buffed-up Makuta powers, melting... and on one occasion by Mazeka stepping on one. With the exception of the last one, masks have been destroyed by decisive force. I am not sure how a Matoran's footstep measures up to a Bohrok headbutting you, but I'd dare say that the Bohrok's impact is stronger overall. Physics likely come into play, though, so that a Toa getting hit in the face is knocked backwards with the Kanohi flying elsewhere, while a Kanohi that is stepped on has nowhere to go and gets its thin shape crushed.The masks we have seen damaged but not destroyed are Brutaka's Olmak and the Vahi, off the top of my head. The former got mutated, and the latter was shot by a disk launcher then dropped a few hundred feet into seawater. I don't know what sort of Kanoka Vakama loaded his launcher with, but if he used a Weaken disk or similar that might have done the trick.Meanwhile, on Mata Nui, masks got knocked off by Rahi and other things relatively often, with no damage to them. How much a Kanohi can actually withstand before it breaks is hard to say; but I don't think they are any weaker than steel, is what I'm saying. Maaaybe iron, but not lower.I wonder if any Toa or Matoran well-versed in mask making has ever tried to crack masks just to see how they operate when damaged? Unless it was always as easy to get replacements as it seemed on Metru Nui, I for one would be interested in knowing if my Pakari could withstand some scratch damage without failing completely.

In my opinion, the material strength should be comparable to the typical plastic frisbee. We throw frisbees at things and they bounce off intact all the time, but if you stomp on one, it can shatter. And when they crack, it's different from a little surface scratch and will tend to get worse easily. Likewise, Matoran throw Kanoka at things as projectiles (therefore the material cannot be as weak as clay), and they way they bounce just seems more likely to be like plastic than metal to me. And this is the exact same substance poured into molds to be masks (although it's more comparable to a frisbee in thickness only when in mask form, not disk form).

My reasoning for this goes beyond mere canon logic, in that this is a toyline based on plastic toys, so it makes sense from our real-world perspective that "pure protodermis" is somewhat symbolic of plastic. And plastic meets all the material requirements. We've all had the occasional piece snap, yet usually they are quite durable.

True, it probably is technically a "metal" (meaning it may have characteristics of metal, possibly mixed with other traits such as plastoid traits), but then what I meant by that is what we normally think of as metal. In the real world there are many types of metals, some of them very soft and one liquid at room temperature, so yeah. I mean like iron or aluminum -- it's probably not like those. The main difference being that metal tends to bend, not break, so stepping on a purely metallic mask should just warp it out of shape, not crack it. Therefore it is likely not purely metallic in the normal sense.

And that is possible since it is only mimicking the physics (somehow) of matter, and this is the purified version which might not be mimicking any particular normal-matter material but doing something in-between of a variety of substances, which seems to me to fit plastic the best.

Eh, I find "plastic" unlikely since they have never been shown to bend easily in canon. Taking meta-knowledge into account in this case wouldn't be all that useful. I'm not sure what kind of Frisbees you have; maybe they are super-hard epic plastic like the "steel plastic" researches have made in recent years, but the ones I have are not at all similar to how even the bamboo disks in BIONICLE have been shown to act.Kanohi clang and clatter like regular metal objects, and I'd describe the metal more like "brittle" than "soft". It is not particularly bendable unless heated, and we don't need to look any further than to the Kanoka used by Vakama to confirm this. They are very much metal plates, and behave as such. The problem is the special flight powers of the disks, imbued in each Metru, which cause them to behave very differently from both plastic Frisbees and metal disks.Disks on Mata Nui were canonically forged out of bamboo (or its equivalent), meaning that their behavior (though still very much a "clang 'n' clatter" type of behavior) is not indicative of Kanohi at all.Forged iron can take some scratch damage, while still being able to crack rather than bend when exposed to force. Depending on how well they are forged, the metal may even become more brittle and fragile if you're not careful. Take a look at many medieval armors and tools, they show these traits (breaking rather than bending) after extended wear and tear and impacts from enemy weapons. I see no reason to pull in plastic behavior to explain metallic Protodermis when regular metal behavior plus bio-mech weight/attack strength will do.

Just a quick theory I just thought up: What if the power in a Great Mask protects it from damage, which would explain how Mazeka could easily shatter a Matoran's powerless mask, while Tahu's Great Hau can take a Bohrok to the face and just go skittering off somewhere. Maybe the shock results in some of the mask's stored energy being shifted from holding magnetically to his face to maintaining the shape and protecting it from breaking. Seems like it could explain a lot. It could actually be developed further to explain a lot of strange canon, but I don't have time to go into that.

No but in all seriousness, this is one of the hundreds of things of the Bionicle Storyline that gets me. Maybe we should write Greg Farshtey... If I'm not mistaken, isn't he a member of BZP or something?

No but in all seriousness, this is one of the hundreds of things of the Bionicle Storyline that gets me. Maybe we should write Greg Farshtey... If I'm not mistaken, isn't he a member of BZP or something?

I actually think that there's only one thing that can crack a mask

but in all sillyness lets keep these pics going

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 04 2013 - 12:34 AM.That last one was a bit inappropriate for a kid's forum, sorry. And can we please stay on topic? This is not the comedy or art forum. -bones

I think masks are made of protodermis, and when a mask is cooled, the protodermis "seals up" at the surface of the mask, containing the power of the mask within. If you crack it, the power leaks out.

If we're comparing mask consistency to real-life materials, I think that the masks have the consistency of brittle mineral rock, like talc or shale. This rock, however, would have to be magnetic. Plastic seems a little too flimsy and non-magnetic, and metal doesn't crack or break that easily.

Again, what I'm saying is in terms of the toughness and brittleness versus metallic bending tendency, it's probably comparable to LEGO-style plastic. Which also does not bend much, and if it does, doesn't bend like what we normally think of with metal (like an aluminum can for example).

I'm not saying purified protodermis would be literally plastic, but it clearly seems to have some traits that seem more like plastic than normal metals.

It would still have metallic traits as well. You could probably best call it metal in summary, but it's also possible (being the purified state of a highly complex molecules, rather than some atomic element like iron, which is an important point since plastics are also molecules, not atoms, as far as I recall) that it wouldn't be exactly like any normal-matter material but would share traits of many. Keep in mind it's the purified state of something that in its other forms can imitate the physics of metals, rocks, water, ice, wood, and flesh. So there's every reason to think that state could be "something in between all of them" (though clearly not organic).

Clarifying because it seems that point did not get across to some of you in my previous post. I'm not saying "plastic versus metal", I'm saying metal that has some traits more in common with plastic than normal-matter metals. Make sense?

As far as why a crack would mess up the power, my theory is that the molecule's design (whether my cyberclay theory is literally true or not) is such that when a batch of purified protodermis is melted, then solidified, that heat realigned all the molecules with each other so they form an internet-style connection between each molecule. So these connections are not only holding it physically together but actually act like wires between the parts of a computer, and the processing for the power is generated along those connections.

So, if you crack it bad enough, you break too many of these connections. Without heat to tell it to realign the connections in a different way (like how our brains will do this to work around some brain injuries), it's stuck like a computer with key wires detached and cannot process the power.

This also fits with the less pure molecules having less power; less connections. Perhaps due to some extra molecules or atoms being connected to external "ports", to cause the generation of matter-imitation physics presumably, similar to recent discoveries about epigenetic "methyl group" molecules that will bind to DNA, often for the whole span of a person's life, switching off those parts of DNA, and some may even stick around on the DNA of descendants. So there'd be less processing power internally, and likely less ports for the power to actually be generated from the surface of the mask.

And it fits with the three Legendary powers not working in the same way, because IMO all three Legendary powers are programmed into all protodermis molecules (since they're "basic functions" by definition) and in the cases of those masks I think there's simply a switch turned on to make those powers run constantly (or perhaps a basic protection part of the molecule has been irreversibly removed). I think that when you forge a Legendary Mask, constant power operation runs along all the connection lines between molecules, and normally not along the extra ports on the surface.

Cracking a connection in that kind of mask would thus make active power generation point out of exposed ports, causing a "leak" effect. And Vakama's welding trick would re-fuse those connections, sealing the "leak". (They would also have no blocked ports at all, being of the highest purity, so could generate the most powerful effects from the surface when mentally commanded to do so.)

This, again, works regardless of whether my cyberclay theory about the design of the molecule is true. (The programming could be stored physically in moving parts of the molecule, or only electronically as data within charged or uncharged parts of the molecule. Lately I'm leaning towards something that uses both, because our own cells use both physical design and electric charge to function.)

I think that crack in MoL was more of a sign of the poison existing inside the mask. It healed when Gali cured the poison.

How come I didn't notice this before? It wasn't just a sign of poison, it was where the Lehrak scratched it with its staff, and poison leaked in there from the staff, and with Gali's healing thing the mask repaired.

Again, what I'm saying is in terms of the toughness and brittleness versus metallic bending tendency, it's probably comparable to LEGO-style plastic. Which also does not bend much, and if it does, doesn't bend like what we normally think of with metal (like an aluminum can for example).

I'm not saying purified protodermis would be literally plastic, but it clearly seems to have some traits that seem more like plastic than normal metals.

It would still have metallic traits as well. You could probably best call it metal in summary, but it's also possible (being the purified state of a highly complex molecules, rather than some atomic element like iron, which is an important point since plastics are also molecules, not atoms, as far as I recall) that it wouldn't be exactly like any normal-matter material but would share traits of many. Keep in mind it's the purified state of something that in its other forms can imitate the physics of metals, rocks, water, ice, wood, and flesh. So there's every reason to think that state could be "something in between all of them" (though clearly not organic).

Clarifying because it seems that point did not get across to some of you in my previous post. I'm not saying "plastic versus metal", I'm saying metal that has some traits more in common with plastic than normal-matter metals. Make sense?

As far as why a crack would mess up the power, my theory is that the molecule's design (whether my cyberclay theory is literally true or not) is such that when a batch of purified protodermis is melted, then solidified, that heat realigned all the molecules with each other so they form an internet-style connection between each molecule. So these connections are not only holding it physically together but actually act like wires between the parts of a computer, and the processing for the power is generated along those connections.

So, if you crack it bad enough, you break too many of these connections. Without heat to tell it to realign the connections in a different way (like how our brains will do this to work around some brain injuries), it's stuck like a computer with key wires detached and cannot process the power.

This also fits with the less pure molecules having less power; less connections. Perhaps due to some extra molecules or atoms being connected to external "ports", to cause the generation of matter-imitation physics presumably, similar to recent discoveries about epigenetic "methyl group" molecules that will bind to DNA, often for the whole span of a person's life, switching off those parts of DNA, and some may even stick around on the DNA of descendants. So there'd be less processing power internally, and likely less ports for the power to actually be generated from the surface of the mask.

And it fits with the three Legendary powers not working in the same way, because IMO all three Legendary powers are programmed into all protodermis molecules (since they're "basic functions" by definition) and in the cases of those masks I think there's simply a switch turned on to make those powers run constantly (or perhaps a basic protection part of the molecule has been irreversibly removed). I think that when you forge a Legendary Mask, constant power operation runs along all the connection lines between molecules, and normally not along the extra ports on the surface.

Cracking a connection in that kind of mask would thus make active power generation point out of exposed ports, causing a "leak" effect. And Vakama's welding trick would re-fuse those connections, sealing the "leak". (They would also have no blocked ports at all, being of the highest purity, so could generate the most powerful effects from the surface when mentally commanded to do so.)

This, again, works regardless of whether my cyberclay theory about the design of the molecule is true. (The programming could be stored physically in moving parts of the molecule, or only electronically as data within charged or uncharged parts of the molecule. Lately I'm leaning towards something that uses both, because our own cells use both physical design and electric charge to function.)

i like you're idea how on great and noble masks the power flows through the outside of the mask similar to how if lighnting strikes it will follow along the surface,

where as legendary masks are so powerfull the energy is contained throughout the whole entirety of it

so if there is a scratch deep enough or a crack on any noble or great it will disrupt the flow

whereas the legendary's would just flow out like a water balloon with a leak

Again, what I'm saying is in terms of the toughness and brittleness versus metallic bending tendency, it's probably comparable to LEGO-style plastic. Which also does not bend much, and if it does, doesn't bend like what we normally think of with metal (like an aluminum can for example).

I'm not saying purified protodermis would be literally plastic, but it clearly seems to have some traits that seem more like plastic than normal metals.

It would still have metallic traits as well. You could probably best call it metal in summary, but it's also possible (being the purified state of a highly complex molecules, rather than some atomic element like iron, which is an important point since plastics are also molecules, not atoms, as far as I recall) that it wouldn't be exactly like any normal-matter material but would share traits of many. Keep in mind it's the purified state of something that in its other forms can imitate the physics of metals, rocks, water, ice, wood, and flesh. So there's every reason to think that state could be "something in between all of them" (though clearly not organic).

Clarifying because it seems that point did not get across to some of you in my previous post. I'm not saying "plastic versus metal", I'm saying metal that has some traits more in common with plastic than normal-matter metals. Make sense?

As far as why a crack would mess up the power, my theory is that the molecule's design (whether my cyberclay theory is literally true or not) is such that when a batch of purified protodermis is melted, then solidified, that heat realigned all the molecules with each other so they form an internet-style connection between each molecule. So these connections are not only holding it physically together but actually act like wires between the parts of a computer, and the processing for the power is generated along those connections.

So, if you crack it bad enough, you break too many of these connections. Without heat to tell it to realign the connections in a different way (like how our brains will do this to work around some brain injuries), it's stuck like a computer with key wires detached and cannot process the power.

This also fits with the less pure molecules having less power; less connections. Perhaps due to some extra molecules or atoms being connected to external "ports", to cause the generation of matter-imitation physics presumably, similar to recent discoveries about epigenetic "methyl group" molecules that will bind to DNA, often for the whole span of a person's life, switching off those parts of DNA, and some may even stick around on the DNA of descendants. So there'd be less processing power internally, and likely less ports for the power to actually be generated from the surface of the mask.

And it fits with the three Legendary powers not working in the same way, because IMO all three Legendary powers are programmed into all protodermis molecules (since they're "basic functions" by definition) and in the cases of those masks I think there's simply a switch turned on to make those powers run constantly (or perhaps a basic protection part of the molecule has been irreversibly removed). I think that when you forge a Legendary Mask, constant power operation runs along all the connection lines between molecules, and normally not along the extra ports on the surface.

Cracking a connection in that kind of mask would thus make active power generation point out of exposed ports, causing a "leak" effect. And Vakama's welding trick would re-fuse those connections, sealing the "leak". (They would also have no blocked ports at all, being of the highest purity, so could generate the most powerful effects from the surface when mentally commanded to do so.)

This, again, works regardless of whether my cyberclay theory about the design of the molecule is true. (The programming could be stored physically in moving parts of the molecule, or only electronically as data within charged or uncharged parts of the molecule. Lately I'm leaning towards something that uses both, because our own cells use both physical design and electric charge to function.)

That really does make sense. It might also add a bit more proof to my theory, with that connection forming a stronger bond between the molecules, which could then be strengthened by transferring power along that grid to protect the form of the mask. Just a thought.