So Frustrated!

H's car is old. Over 2 weeks ago, we learned that it would require a major repair, so H announced that he needed a new car. Fine. I had NO OBJECTION to that. Days go by and H makes ZERO effort to look for another car. When I ask, H says that he'll look "later". Later never came. A friend of one of our kids LOVES to look for cars, so he stays current with what's out there. After a week went by, I asked this friend to recommend some cars. The friend happily suggested some cars, even sending some links to look at.

I look at the links, talk to H about them, and all H can say is: those are too expensive. Oh, and H threatens to just have his very old car fixed (OMG...no one would spend that much money on an old old car).

In the meantime, H makes me run circles because now I had the only car. Finally, on Wednesday, I tell him he has to find a car. Nothing happens. On Friday I show his more cars online. He seems only mildly interested. Won't make any effort.

Finally on Friday, I grab my checkbook and say, "let's go, we're going to buy a car." H dawdles and finally we go. He starts looking at older used cars and ones that are just too small. We need a good-sized SUV to replace the one that just died.. I don't mind a used car, but I don't want more problems. If it's going to be "used" then I don't want an old one...at most, it can be a couple of years old. (H can't work on cars). We go to one dealership and he finds a newish used car, but it's stripped (no good options). I insist that we look at a bigger dealership. Upon arrival, I see "the car" that we should buy...right size big & reliable (Honda Pilot), all the bells and whistles!. It's awesome. H tests it and loves it. He declares that it's the best car he's ever driven. Then he gets all anxious and wants me to make the decision because of the cost. I use my iPad to look up what should be a fair price, and then I pull out my checkbook, write out a check for the amount that I'm willing to pay, hand it to the sales manager and say, "this is what I'll pay in cash, including tax and license, or I'm leaving." the salesman disappears for a couple of minutes and then comes back and wants a bit more. I say no, and begin to leave, and then the sales manager accepts. (I knew that since it was the end of the month, dealerships are desperate for sales to meet their target numbers.)

H was happy happy, and saying that he's glad he's on my team. (Ha ha). We meet one of our kids for dinner, and H is still excited about the car and tells our child about the car, in detail.

However, by about midnight, his mood switches completely. He starts yelling about stupid stuff and yelling about the fact that he tripped over the dog's leash (well, whose fault is that? Not mine!!). Then this morning, he sends me a terrible email about what a mistake it was to buy that car. Ugh.

Actually, I don't really care what he thinks about the car. He had plenty of time to look himself but he didn't. He was making himself a nuisance with my car, constantly needing to be dropped off or taken somewhere. I told him I'll keep the car and he can have mine (he loves my car). He agreed to that. OMG. That's fine with me, but how ridiculous.

I'm really disgusted with the fact that he won't make decisions, wouldn't even TRY to look for a car, and then acts like he had no choice!

Comments

Overwhelmed - Oh man.... I sure know how this feels. I hate that I have to be the one to make all of the decisions. And when I ask him to participate I get the eye rolls and the annoyed "I dont know" or what irritates me even more "If thats what you want"... as if everything is supposed to be geared toward me. He makes me feel like I treat him as a servant.

Anyway - I totally just wanted to tell you that you are NOT alone in this!!!!! That constant, I will do it later, then later never seems to come so you ask again - and then its met with anger and irritation. Or, you just do what ever it is yourself, and its STILL met with irritation since you then stole their thunder for accomplishing something. Literally - you cannot win.

Like with my husband, he puts me in a place where I have no other options other than to make all the decisions- and then after gets irritated or frustrated by those decisions because he had no "voice" or control in them. I suspect your husband acted out with the leash and the email because he probably felt forced to make a decision. Even though he should have taken care of it, and been responsible to not negativly affect your life with something that should be a good experience - he chose to be lazy and depend on you to "take care of things". I suspect its about control - I know it is for my husband. He cannot make decisions, and he cannot seem to figure out how to get things done, so when I end up having to DO the thing, he feels like he has no control of his own life (not realizing he is controlling everything around him with his actions). So he acts out.

years ago, we decided we were going to Disney World with my brother and his family. My sister-in-law and I started planning the trip. We'd be there for 8 days, so lots to plan for. We wanted to go to all the parks, including the water parks. We made up a sample itinerary and I showed it to H and asked his opinion. He set it aside and said he'd look at it "later".

Over the next few weeks, my SIL and I made some changes and each time I'd print out a copy and show H, but he'd just set it aside (not look at it AT ALL). Just kept saying that he'd look at it "later".

SIL and I used a WDW travel book that gave excellent advice about visiting WDW with children. It gave great tips about how to avoid lines, especially at popular rides....and how to time your day to get the most out of each day.

H never looked at any of the plans...ever. Not even for a minute.

We arrived in Florida and began our stay. By about the 3rd day, H had a big meltdown about how I didn't schedule any time for him to go to the gym! (Omg!). Not once had he requested that! I had no idea he'd want "gym time" when we were already walking a gazillion miles each day in the parks!!!

My brother, SIL and I were stunned at his temper tantrum. If someone expects to go to a fitness center during a busy vacation, then they should say so upfront. And they should certainly look over the itinerary, ahead of time, to ensure that! My brother said to H, "who needs to go to a gym when we're getting a work-out with all of this walking."

No, instead he said nothing ahead of time, and then threw the biggest tantrum. We said, "fine, you go to the gym" and we're staying on schedule and going to a comedy show. We had a blast and he missed out. Oh well.

For at least 10 years, H complained about that schedule and how crazy it was not to include his gym time (which again, he made NO MENTION of needing/wanting and we'd NEVER included gym time during any other vacation prior to that!).

I would hear rants about how he told coworkers about my "control freak" itinerary and how the schedule was insane. My SIL and I simply followed the book's guide for each theme park ...which rides to visit first, best places to eat, restrooms that are "less busy", etc.

My brother and sister-in-law were very happy with the trip. Since they live far away, they knew that this would be their only trip to WDW. So, they were very glad to "see it all" in an efficient matter.

Seriously, to this day, I'll still hear complaints about what a control freak I was. Omg

Now, of course, I know that H has ADHD, anxiety, depression, and many other issues. At that time, I didn't know about any of that. In hindsight, I now realize that his "gym time" was really just an excuse to "get away," and relax away from all the stimulus of WDW. I just wish he had expressed his desire/need before the trip.

You know what I am seeing here? That refusal to express what he wants/needs..... and then anger that you cannot predict it. Funny how all the books instruct us as spouses to be specific in telling our ADHD spouses exactly what we want etc, and yet one of the BIGGEST problems I have seen is the fact that as the non ADHD spouse - it seems we are expected to become psychic and KNOW what our ADHD spouses need and plan accordingly. And when it isnt exactly right - we are then the controlling, nagging spouse preventing them from what they really want. UGH

No win situation.

By the way - that disny trip sounds AMAZING! I have read that planning like you did is the only way to really get alot out of the visit these days. GOOD ON YOU for sticking to it and making an amazing memory!

Anyway - I totally just wanted to tell you that you are NOT alone in this!!!!! That constant, I will do it later, then later never seems to come so you ask again - and then its met with anger and irritation. Or, you just do what ever it is yourself, and its STILL met with irritation since you then stole their thunder for accomplishing something. Literally - you cannot win.

Like with my husband, he puts me in a place where I have no other options........

Stacey and OW, the operant word here is "impossible". It literally, is being put into a position with no way out and backed into a corner with no solutions or remedies available to you which ends up right where you are. I hear you....and I can relate to this well. It's what I experience myself almost daily sometimes with my wife and this is what I have found to be so true.

When a person has no ability to problem solve ( like almost non existent ) it leaves them with nothing but their emotions surrounding their own inability to "think of an alternative" in their mind. Period....end of story. Every single situation they find themselves in where they are confronted with a problem no matter how small......with no ability to "think their own way out of trouble"...or "think their way out of their own situation"......they run into a dead end up stairs with no alternative route to take. No detours...no alternatives...no finding another way. When confronted with a problem like taking a test in school...that they have no answer for or no ability to "figure it out for themselves" right then and there when in the process of taking a test ( in the moment )...they've got "nothing". zippo...."0"......nichts......zilch.....nadda. Period. End of story.

You could also say....."they have no idea"......"don't know what they are talking about"........"haven't a clue"....."clueless"......and these would all be valid arguments to make because I really believe this is true. But in terms of my wife....the "ONE THING".....she refuses to say ever is........"I don't know?"....which in actuality...is the one true statement she could actually say that would be valid on her part. That would be Okay and just fine in every single situation I can think of on my part her she would just say....."I don't know". Trying to get her to admit or say that....is impossible which is why there is no use fighting or arguing about it even if you have a legitimate right to do this as I have come to find myself.

This is infuriatingly frustrating...when what you do get is: "accusations"...."blame"....and ....."fault"....thrown in your face as if the problem is you.

I know it is for my husband. He cannot make decisions, and he cannot seem to figure out how to get things done, so when I end up having to DO the thing, he feels like he has no control of his own life (not realizing he is controlling everything around him with his actions). So he acts out.

So true.....especially the "acting out" part ie: Acting out is a psychological term from the parlance of defense mechanisms and self-control, meaning to perform an action in contrast to bearing and managing the impulse to perform it. Or in other words...a particular way or pattern of dealing with this inability....each and every time they reach that dead end missed connection. Period. End of story.

I've thought about this a lot lately because this is so infuriating to me. There is no end to this as far as I see it...and it will always be this way with my wife. This is not poor skills or not knowing any other way...;.this is a complete "absence of ability" and a complete disconnection of sorts....to the point that every time it happens...it will always be the same thing. There is NO....connection...and with no connection up stairs....there is NO ABILITY for rational thought or problem solving abilities what so ever. Period. End of story.

You'd think...a person would be aware of this and on some level....and I do feel my wife is. What she knows...is also her only justification for her acting out as well seems to come in terms of being "without the ability" to "act out" which controls others even done in this way......she would be left "defenseless" , "powerless" and "helpless" to have any control of her life otherwise?

"Helpless"....."incompetent"......"and without any ability"...."no power".....is exactly what you got. Period. End of story.

And in response to this by nature..or naturally speaking....something within their ability to do....takes up in it's place. There are skills here that have been developing over a lifetime in how to compensate and everyone is different but there seems to be a common thread here? As I remember saying something along these lines to my T about...."incompetent" ...or ..."lack of skills"...he said .."Oh....I wouldn't be so sure of that....(they in a generalized way without pointing fingers).....have skills alright, and somewhere along the way, they found something a long time ago that worked......and what works is what they have become very adept at..in.. using those skills"

In my mind they are "highly skilled " in one sense.....in using these skill sets.....to compensate for a complete inability to problem solve. In my mind...if a "test" were taken to "test for this ability in this specific way? They would flunk and get an "F"...and possibly get a "0" score on that test.

But because nature abhors a "vacuum"...(literally)....then something else will always take up the space that is empty to compensate. What are these skills then in lue of the ability to use logic and reason to "figure things out" and "problem solve"....in order to "make a decision"...or come to any "real conclusions".....in an accurate way?

MANIPULATION....getting others to do it for you. Period....end of story.

I will include the link to my source here..... on people who manipulate others and in turn....the "victims" of these skilled manipulators...and the qualities of both in order for it to work. On a certain level....I think OW ...you will find this interesting? There are diagnosis mentioned here that you have brought up yourself? For no other reason....I think it's good for everyone to see this listed out on both sides and just know...that on some level.....we all fit into this at times in some ways.....but not as a "chronic way of being" and not relying solely on these skill sets for survival in lue or the ability to "think"...and "problem solve"...and "figure things out". In other words.....if you took away these skills from someone who relied on them to get anything in their lives....they would be left with nothing..and therefore....have no reason or motivation what so ever...to lose the only skills they've got in that were the case?

At this point....I am working very hard myself...at the skills I need to counter this with my wife and for the most part....it keeps me from being a victim myself which is what is most important here for me ( or you ). As I see it...it is what is in your own power to do and the only thing you can do in the face of a skilled manipulator. To the degree in all of this...is what remains still the question for me? I firmly believe at this point....that it doesn't have to be to the degree mentioned in the diagnosis...to remain a problem ( a real big problem for anyone ) on the receiving end of it.

side note: I also wanted to point out that being on the receiving end of this...is categorized as being "a victim". In a technical sense....you are but that doesn't mean you are a "victim" in terms of "victim mentality" or suffering from the same "victim stance" or "victim position"....which is coming from the very person who refuses to take responsibility as in ...the manipulator themselves....but not as a "result" of being "PUT INTO" this position? I think it's really easy to play the part...but not be that way yourself only in terms of the "position this puts you into". A very important distinction that you may find valuable to you to explore yourself? Taking inventory of where you are....is always a good place to start I think? If you've a "victim"...to a "victim"....then it's good to know that's where you are....so you won't be "subject" to them? Know what I mean? They'll gas light you into thinking "you're the one"...when in actuality...."they're the ones doing it." Projection is mentioned as one of the skills listed.

There is a time and a place to point fingers at the source with a reasonable amount of assurance for yourself by doing this. It serves no purpose other than to give you the skills to do something about it...and not a victim yourself? If you take this as a means to use against "them" or as "ammo" to be used other than for your own sake and well being...you will be taking the bait...and falling into the trap...that is laid out before you by the very person doing this and doing it "back at them"...;which is now you.....doing what they're doing in return which is "exactly what they expect".

What I 've found is...the only way to fight fire with fire is to do exactly....what they do not expect which will leave them dead in the water...with no power what so ever.!!!

Ride the Dragon!!!! And meet the Dragon head on and do it better than they can do it. There are counter measures and skills to learn in order to do this and that's what you need to learn!!!

Like I've said in the past......"Nice shoot'in soldier....but two can play at that game." Doing it better than they can...will full control or awareness of yourself and being in complete control...is riding the Dragon in my mind? Become a Ninja Warrior and ride the Dragon!!! This can work for yourself if you doing this for yourself..but it can also work against someone who refuses to to do this for themselves and is a "true victim" in this case...which is a win /win...no matter which way you look at it?

Currently...this is what I am calling Bullshit on....and calling "a spade".. "a spade". In mind at least....this is totally unacceptable behavior and is not to be tolerated what so ever!!! For myself as much as with anyone else. This is where..I want to make a definitive statement about myself and how I see this relating to ADHD? I have ADHD...but I am a poor manipulator. My skills in these areas are poor in that....being raised by someone who relied upon these same skills heavily top use on others for their own benefit means...T

The better YOU are at manipulation in terms as "a counter measure"...the harder it is for them to make it work and the less effective it will work for them on their behave. So the very skills they have in order to accomplish their goals...are the very ones that threaten them in others since this is their "Achilles Heal." In my mind...if you want to be effective yourself in countering a manipulator....you need to know what they're Achilles Heal is...and set your sites on those skills specifically for yourself for your own benefit as protection and immunity from the effects this can have on you...not to become a manipulator yourself. When I say...with full awareness of yourself and what you are doing....this is what I am talking about. GET STRONG and BUCKLE UP!! It may not be...a game you want to play...but in respect them someone who's a "player"....what other choice do you have? Period. End of story.

One last side note here. Some of these skills are more commonly associated with men...but many are associated to woman too. I see no distinction here....by the way? A manipulator, is a manipulator.......is a manipulator. End of story.

Negative reinforcement: involves removing one from a negative situation as a reward, e.g. "You won't have to do your homework if you allow me to do this to you."

Intermittent or partial reinforcement: Partial or intermittent negative reinforcement can create an effective climate of fear and doubt. Partial or intermittent positive reinforcement can encourage the victim to persist - for example in most forms of gambling, the gambler is likely to win now and again but still lose money overall.

Traumatic one-trial learning: using verbal abuse, explosive anger, or other intimidating behavior to establish dominance or superiority; even one incident of such behavior can condition or train victims to avoid upsetting, confronting or contradicting the manipulator.

According to Simon

Simon identified the following manipulative techniques:[2]

Lying: It is hard to tell if somebody is lying at the time they do it, although often the truth may be apparent later when it is too late. One way to minimize the chances of being lied to is to understand that some personality types (particularly psychopaths) are experts at the art of lying and cheating, doing it frequently, and often in subtle ways.

Lying by omission: This is a very subtle form of lying by withholding a significant amount of the truth. This technique is also used in propaganda.

Denial: Manipulator refuses to admit that he or she has done something wrong.

Rationalization: An excuse made by the manipulator for inappropriate behavior. Rationalization is closely related to spin.

Minimization: This is a type of denial coupled with rationalization. The manipulator asserts that his or her behavior is not as harmful or irresponsible as someone else was suggesting, for example, saying that a taunt or insult was only a joke.

Selective inattention or selective attention: Manipulator refuses to pay attention to anything that may distract from his or her agenda, saying things like "I don't want to hear it".

( I'm still trying to get over my anger here......."I don't want to talk about it"....my wifes favorite form of manipulation and it is infuriating every time she manipulates me this way and I have no other choice because if I try anything against this...it will erupt in conflict. It's abusive...that's all I can say ) As my T called it.....Muzzling. errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! Dismissive...I am beginning to really Hate that word.

Diversion: Manipulator not giving a straight answer to a straight question and instead being diversionary, steering the conversation onto another topic.

Guilt trip: A special kind of intimidation tactic. A manipulator suggests to the conscientious victim that he or she does not care enough, is too selfish or has it easy. This usually results in the victim feeling bad, keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious and submissive position.

Shaming: Manipulator uses sarcasm and put-downs to increase fear and self-doubt in the victim. Manipulators use this tactic to make others feel unworthy and therefore defer to them. Shaming tactics can be very subtle such as a fierce look or glance, unpleasant tone of voice, rhetorical comments, subtle sarcasm. Manipulators can make one feel ashamed for even daring to challenge them. It is an effective way to foster a sense of inadequacy in the victim.

Playing the victim role: Manipulator portrays him- or herself as a victim of circumstance or of someone else's behavior in order to gain pity, sympathy or evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. Caring and conscientious people cannot stand to see anyone suffering and the manipulator often finds it easy to play on sympathy to get cooperation.

Vilifying the victim: More than any other, this tactic is a powerful means of putting the victim on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent of the manipulator, while the manipulator falsely accuses the victim as being an abuser in response when the victim stands up for or defends themselves or their position.

Playing the servant role: Cloaking a self-serving agenda in guise of a service to a more noble cause, for example saying he is acting in a certain way to be "obedient" to or in "service" to an authority figure or "just doing their job".

Seduction: Manipulator uses charm, praise, flattery or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and give their trust and loyalty to him or her. They will also offer help with the intent to gain trust and access to an unsuspecting victim they have charmed.

Projecting the blame (blaming others): Manipulator scapegoats in often subtle, hard-to-detect ways. Often, the manipulator will project his/her own psychotic thinking onto the victim, making the victim look like he/she has done something wrong. Manipulators will also claim that the victim is the one who is at fault for believing lies that they were conned into believing, as if the victim forced the manipulator to be deceitful. All blame, except for the part that is used by the manipulator to accept false guilt, is done in order to make the victim feel guilty about making healthy choices, correct thinking and good behaviors. It is frequently used as a means of psychological and emotional manipulation and control. Manipulators lie about lying, only to re-manipulate the original, less believable story into a "more acceptable" truth that the victim will believe. Projecting lies as being the truth is another common method of control and manipulation. Manipulators love to falsely accuse the victim as "deserving to be treated that way." They often claim that the victim is crazy and/or abusive, especially when there is evidence against the manipulator. (See Feigning, below.)

Feigning innocence: Manipulator tries to suggest that any harm done was unintentional or that they did not do something that they were accused of. Manipulator may put on a look of surprise or indignation. This tactic makes the victim question his or her own judgment and possibly his own sanity.

Feigning confusion: Manipulator tries to play dumb by pretending he or she does not know what the victim is talking about or is confused about an important issue brought to his or her attention. The manipulator intentionally confuses the victim in order for the victim to doubt his/her own accuracy of perception, often pointing out key elements that the manipulator intentionally included in case there is room for doubt. Sometimes manipulators will have used cohorts in advance to help back up their story.

Brandishing anger: Manipulator uses anger to brandish sufficient emotional intensity and rage to shock the victim into submission. The manipulator is not actually angry, he or she just puts on an act. He just wants what he wants and gets "angry" when denied. Controlled anger is often used as a manipulation tactic to avoid confrontation, avoid telling the truth or to further hide intent. There are often threats used by the manipulator of going to police, or falsely reporting abuses that the manipulator intentionally contrived to scare or intimidate the victim into submission. Blackmail and other threats of exposure are other forms of controlled anger and manipulation, especially when the victim refuses initial requests or suggestions by the manipulator. Anger is also used as a defense so the manipulator can avoid telling truths at inconvenient times or circumstances. Anger is often used as a tool or defense to ward off inquiries or suspicion. The victim becomes more focused on the anger instead of the manipulation tactic.

Bandwagon Effect: Manipulator comforts the victim into submission by claiming (whether true or false) that many people already have done something, and the victim should as well. These include phrases such as "Many people like you..." or "Everyone does this anyways." Such manipulation can be seen in peer pressure situations, often occurring in scenarios where the manipulator attempts to influence the victim into trying drugs or other substances.

Vulnerabilities exploited by manipulators

According to Braiker's self-help book,[1] manipulators exploit the following vulnerabilities (buttons) that may exist in victims:

naïve - cannot believe there are dishonest people in the world, taking for granted that if there were they would not be allowed to operate.

impressionable - overly seduced by charmers. For example, they might vote for the seemingly charming politician who kisses babies.

trusting - people who are honest often assume that everyone else is honest. They are more likely to commit themselves to people they hardly know without checking credentials, etc., and less likely to question so-called experts.

lonely - lonely people may accept any offer of human contact. A psychopathic stranger may offer human companionship for a price.

narcissistic - narcissists are prone to falling for unmerited flattery.

impulsive - make snap decisions about, for example, what to buy or whom to marry without consulting others.

frugal - cannot say no to a bargain even if they know the reason it is so cheap.

materialistic - easy prey for loan sharks or get-rich-quick schemes.

greedy - the greedy and dishonest may fall prey to a psychopath who can easily entice them to act in an immoral way.

masochistic - lack self-respect and so unconsciously let psychopaths take advantage of them. They think they deserve it out of a sense of guilt.

the elderly - the elderly can become fatigued and less capable of multi-tasking. When hearing a sales pitch they are less likely to consider that it could be a con. They are prone to giving money to someone with a hard-luck story. See elder abuse.

Motivations of manipulators

Manipulators can have various possible motivations, including but not limited to:[1]

the need to advance their own purposes and personal gain at virtually any cost to others

a strong need to attain feelings of power and superiority in relationships with others

a want and need to feel in control (aka. control freak)

a desire to gain a feeling of power over others in order to raise their perception of self-esteem

boredom, or growing tired of his/her surroundings, seeing it as a game more than hurting others

covert agenda, criminal or otherwise, including financial manipulation (often seen when the elderly or unsuspecting, unprotected wealthy are intentionally targeted for the sole purpose of obtaining a victim's financial assets)

Emotophobia.....is a new definition for me but not in terms of what I have known for myself. This use to be my most vulnerable place and to a certain degree...it still is? I've learned to manage this to the point of it not being a problem for the most part...until someone uses this "button" or "trigger" against me....which is now making complete sense to me? My wife hammers this button so hard and with such intensity....I finally cave to it and become furious as a result. This is where learning to do this when I should have better ie" expressing anger and frustration ( being stoic ) was a direct result of my upbringing which did cripple me in a sense. This is the either "ON"...or "OFF" button...with no middle so to speak but this is what I am focusing on...in the face of someone doing it on purpose just to get a reaction out of me. When I can do this well.....I find the fear of being vulnerable goes away. And when there is no fear.....I'm riding the Dragon instead of the Dragon riding me.

The vacuum of assumption speaking in these terms...is the Homo Phobe who hates gays...yet has homo sexual tendencies themselves at the source. The assumption that others are just like them...and then misinterprets others motivation to be of their own which shows their hand...every time they do it? I am now understanding this much better and can now see how my wife interprets things....through her own misguided motivations and thinks that's what others are doing too? It's very paranoid and accusatory....and she shows me her hand every time she does it?

I also wanted to say not to sound completely judgmental and negative myself. My wife has many admirable qualities that do show themselves and I always appreciate them. What I don't appreciate...and in those terms...do not respect. Is underhanded cowardly play....in any endeavor whether it be on the playing field in sports...or in personal relationships.

Underhanded, cowardly and weakness in terms of deceptive and manipulative behavior...is my focus since this is what will be the end of us...if this is not remedied in the long run. I can feel great compassion for those who are weaker than I am and I have no problem with this in my wife. What I find reprehensible behavior and I cannot respect what so ever....is underhanded play.....on the field or off and I admittedly...am not likely to change my position of that? Can I Love my enemy and have that degree of Love here? The jury is still out on that one...but the one mistake that my wife is making with me...is by underestimating your opponent in this particular game. If she assumes that I am like her...and assumes based on herself that I cannot conquer and over come my Dragon and in terms.....her Dragon.....she's got another thing coming and she will soon find out that I play to win and play for keeps when playing the game of life. The one thing I'm not....... in the face of my own fears...is a coward and she can take that to the bank if she needs to find out the hard way? What I need from her...is what I already have and so within that....I don't need her for that to overcome my own vulnerabilities and weakness's and I just need to know which specific things to work on..and then hyper focus on those which is my source of power in order to do it.

Becoming immune to these things myself....will take my wife's power to manipulate completely away and I will be riding the Dragon and she will unfortunately be left with nothing? I suspect as a prediction...she will leave when that day comes and that day is coming sooner than she thinks? My wife's underestimation of me...comes from her own underestimation of herself and this will be her fatal mistake and undoing...and why she says "I've never been with anyone like you before." Read it and weep as they say. Her day of reckoning is coming as soon as I get there myself.

Sadly - my husband used to brag about how he could get people to do what they want him to do. Silly silly me for thinking he wasnt doing exactly that TO me at the same time. He is the manipulation king, all while accusing others of trying to manipulate him - by simply holding him acountible for his decisions and actions. he truly seems to believe he should be allowed to say and do anything he wants and face NO consiquences from the people he hurts.

My husband rarely has an answer outside of "I dont know". I ask him pretty much anything - and he tells me "I dont know". I am sick of "I dont know"... and I am not referring to when I ask what he wants for dinner. Its literally everything. He says he has no way to express his feelings with words (I believe him now that I understand about Alexithymia) but he also wont put in the effort to consider things and at least maybe write them down. I am stuck with "I dont know" to live off of. Completely unsustainable.

Top that off with my new belief on why he has stayed with me...and I am just done with it all. He has finally managed to convince me that no - he really DOESNT love me. I believe him at his word this time. And I will watch him leave my life and I will not fight it. Oh I will mourn the man I thought I had in my life - but I wont mourn the man who used me and manipulated me to get what he wanted - all while toying with my emotions as if my life was nothing but a game to entertain him with.

At least that's one strategy isn't it? I am sorry it has to come to this with you....especially the part of believing in somebody he wasn't? In so many ways....I'm still the naive immature person I use to be...but with a hint of knowledge....that has changed everything. You can't un-ring the bell once you know? And once you know....it's just as difficult ....not seeing it, as it was when you couldn't see it before? This is where I struggle in the most. My attitude and feelings about so many things have changed..but with that....I really don't know how I feel about this completely as of yet? What I'm not feeling is hurt or even all that broken hearted but I do remember...boy do I remember? More than anything...I am feeling very frustrated and disheartened and quite disappointed only in that I believed if I was honest and up front and completely forth coming with full disclosure.....that would make the difference but it doesn't...at all!!!! I could have lied through my teeth...and it would have ended up exactly where it is between the two of us....nothing has changed. This is what I am so disappointed in that I really had my hopes up but none the less. I'm the one with ADHD and all that goes with it and the effect this has on others is neither surprising or anything new and I am not about to cast any blame or fault on my wife for that much which I don't. Knowing why that is...makes all the difference in the world it really is a shame in all regards?

What has changed however...is that by not lying, not defending and not casting blame....what that leaves me feeling for the most part is clean...AND THAT...is why I feel so much better about myself than ever before. The reason not to lie...is not for anyone else's benefit....it's for mine and I take that with me and I can feel good about that much in it and by itself. It's not my wife's problem that I have ADHD and do things to upset her......what IS my wife's problem and not mine what so ever......is being an emotionally dishonest, emotionally out of control.... control freak who is a manipulator in response.;

Symptom = Me / ADHD

Response= her / Controlling Manipulator with no means to control herself and her responses ie: "Reactions"

Response ????? Not sure yet? We'll find out when I get completely in control of all my symptoms which now is even more imperative than before. When I get a handle on ME to that level...it will leave US with what's left? And what is left...is what I can't respect as I see it? I know what it took for me to get here. If my wife can't do the same for me...then what's the point? Her value goes down...as mine goes up? Take it or leave it...that's the way it feels to me? If she's not willing to "feel the burn" and do the work....then I can barely imagine feeling much in the way of respect for her by the time I'm done which like I said.....she probably leave before that will happen and find someone who will put up with someone who refuses to take responsibility for themselves and find a way? It takes hard work and effort let me tell you....but I believe enough in myself...to think I'm worth it even if she doesn't? That's no reflection on me and why....I am not hurt or heartbroken about it? I'm not going to be weak and worthless...so she won't feel like such a failure? Sorry....that's not how I operate and it's never been that way for me...despite having ADHD and all that goes with it.

But that's not you and not where you are? I say...let him feel the "burn" and let him "feel the pain" and see what he's made of? You won't have to do anything more...than sit back and watch the show but with the same caveat I'm making for myself.;....don't let him pull you down or make anything you do...contingent on what he does? Get strong, work it out .....and keep on working on yourself and going in a forward direction....you can never go wrong in that direction....no matter what your H does. That's my philosophy at least...and it seems to working?

For quite some time now, I have been not reacting, not suggesting, not getting pulled into arguments. I am somewhat afraid of H. There has not been physical attacks. And I'm trying to figure out what it is about him that I am afraid of. So I have been letting him "feel the pain" of his own actions/inactions. If he does not get included in an activity, then he should have been communicating with me and "in the loop" while the activity was being talked about and planned. If he does not eat dinner, then he should have talked to me and been in communication with me as to our plans, what is going on tonight, etc. For decades, I would call him, remind him, call him again and become frustrated when I would make dinner every night and he didn't bother to come in the house because he was smoking, drinking beer and doing crossword puzzles. Now I eat when I want and put the dinner in the refrigerator after I am done. Sometimes he slams things when he comes in....and I can "feel" that he thinks I should (there is that word "should") warm the dinner and serve him.....or am I projecting? Maybe he just wants to be left alone ALL the time. But I believe that us human beings need each other and get crazy being ignored and rejected on a regular basis. But, I can't keep chasing someone who doesn't want to participate.

Jenna....I kind of had the same question put in different words...that I proposed to my T yesterday. He echoed your words here " But I believe that us human beings need each other......."without the second part you mentioned. Okay....I'm down with that but what's up with this behavior? This lashing out in anger and instantly blowing a gasket over?????? I don't want to minimize this as globally saying nothing is important BUT.....my wife will seemingly blow a gasket over nothing sometimes....literally!! I reminded him of what he had said about avoidant / dismissive attachment and he confirmed..."attachment is where it's at. But hr was now throwing in the word disorganized into the mix. yikes!! Knowing what little I do on that one...I know it's not good in respect to a persons insecure type of attachment style But I went back to the fundamental scenario where it all starts....

"Mother doesn't bond correctly with child and then mother leaves the child alone. While the mother is away...the infant gets upset and then gets angry. Mother comes home and child is angry but instead of being consoled and comforted by the mothers return....the child remains angry and cannot be consoled no matter what the mother does? " That sets the stage for that infant when it grows older and remains the pattern in every and all close relationships until???????? Until...the grown adult goes into therapy and gets help....that's what!!! That initial pattern going all the way back to the mothers failure with the infant...is now getting re-enacted and transferred onto that person partner.....each time an adult is disappointed, feels abandoned ( or perceives rejection / abandonment ) or feels neglected in in some way and doesn't feel like their needs are getting met?

But I went on to remind him of a few times when we were first dating that startled me ( scared me ..yes, it actually made me afraid? ) by my wife's reaction...seemingly, overblown over nothing and would not get over it. I actually walked out of a restaurant during the worst of of these episodes and never came back ( leaving her there alone to pay the bill and my meal uneaten ). This was before she even knew me and I certainly didn't know her all that well and we were both apparently??...on our best behaviors which I was. I had never seen anyone do such a thing especially right at first over literally...a misinterpretation of what I had said? And when I explained it to her to clear the air....THERE WAS NO CLEARING THE AIR!!! That's the point? She remained angry, inconsolable, and seemingly like a total freak who had lost their mind or something? Over what? Saying the wrong thing? I had no idea what I had said and it made no sense to me? It wasn't offensive or even a highly charged topic...she had just asked me a question and I answered her.....HONESTLY!! And she flipped out...as if....."what should be.....wasn't? " That's the point?

"what should be.....wasn't? " Like when her derelict mother chose to go to a bar in search of her new husband instead of coming home and taking care of the kids? Passing them off on relatives or the nearest convenient baby sitter so she could go drink and carouse? I know her mother was only 18 years old when she had my wife....but that's a poor excuse. Imaturity is one thing...a complete lack of fundamental caring is a whole different ball game. 18 year old woman (and younger) have been able to accomplish that without doing that? This was a self serving...purely selfish and despicable person her mother...who only cared about herself at all times. Me , me , me....all the way home and when she got home...it was still about Me even then. Drunk...no less. This was a travesty in every sense of the word and the respect I have /had for her mother...was less than "0" because she appeared no different to me....even at age 75. A contemptuous, demanding, impossible to please, bitter and purely self serving person who had a chip on her shoulder when it came to ALL THE MEN in her life that failed her and you wonder why? She was a morally bankrupt individual with seemingly no redeeming qualities what so ever...that's why? None of them measured up because they were all out to get her and were lazy good for nothing scum bags....blah, blah, blah.... Look who's talking sister...you got exactly what you put out there as a representation of...."ALL MEN". Let me see...not all men are alcoholics first off? And not all men lazy good for nothing bums who spend all their free time down at the tavern either? Right where you met them darling....doing the same thing as they were....getting drunk. Talk about calling the kettle "black", throwing rocks in glass houses and reaping what you sow?? Jeeese!!!

And that's the point again. My wife...still can't face the fact that her mother....DID NOT LOVE HER!!! And she was a horrible person as a human being even if she did the bare minimum to keep my wife and her brother alive while complaining how bad she had it;...the entire time!!! PERIOD!!! End of story!! That's the truth. I know it....my T confirms it....but my wife is in total denial because the truth.....hurts!!!! Because she still wants to believe that she did because she can't face the truth since that would require her to look at her self in the mirror ...and face the fact that everything she thought, believes and was taught was wrong and pack of lies. All those things that her mother taught her to believe from the mind of a derelict for a teacher ...in what relationships, men and Love is all about is wrong....dead wrong. Just like her mother on both accounts.

This is what I am so frustrated over? I had to go through that myself but I did it on my own and wanted to. I was tired of not knowing why I felt the way I did about so many things and wanted to know the truth. In fact....I've wanted to know the truth going back to when I was a child and felt like I was being deceived back then...which really pissed me off!! LOL And my intuition...was right on the money on that one. It was both hard to hear...and validating both...at the same time!!!

So yes Jenna....when I left my wife sitting in the restraint that night...I was afraid of something and what I am still afraid of...is having "THAT"....in my living space with me and all that hatred and FUCKED UP thinking sitting next to me in my living room when she goes back in time and I become???? One of those horrible drunkards who her mother drug home half in the bag to screw into marrying her? The one's in her mother's eyes represented ALL MEN? You mean those miscreants she knew of as her "instant Dad"...until her mother left them because they were the problems? You mean those MEN? To go back to the bar again to find another one? THOSE MEN???

In my wife's delusion ( or fantasy of I'm suppose to be ? )...she believes that I'm just one of "THOSE" but has no basis for her thoughts because she can't remember very much because she's blocked that from her mind. "I don't want to talk about it!!!!". Wrong....."I don't want to HEAR about it...more like. Say what you MEAN....instead of Bullshitting me!!! Don't try and "Bullshit...a Bullshittter" darling.....even a reformed one...makes no difference?

This is where I am really having a hard time understanding? My feelings whether they are valid or not....have very little sympathy for someone who's just afraid of the truth and can't hear it without blowing a gasket? I don't know what else too think or feel? I did it....and it didn't kill me and I so much better off from the short amount of pain compared to the relief and happiness and fulfillment you get on the other side once you go though it. What I can't respect..is person who won't get up off their ass and at least try? That's just lazy and afraid of work in my mind...and pretty worthless as far as I see it?

"Inconsolable" ...that's just sounds like a waste of time to me? No matter what you do...it will NEVER be good enough. I'm having a pretty hard time right now...doing what my T told me once again to do. Give her what she wants no matter what she asks and see what she does? I've done it...and done it again...but I haven't done it long enough before I get berated and Chastised ( again ) for doing it "wrong"...yet...she can't tell me the "right way " either since the right way in her FUCKED UP mind....doesn't exist!!!! errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

I regret....not leaving my wife in that restaurant and never returning her calls!!!! There was a reason I was afraid....I was just too stupid to realize it at the time!!! I'm more angry at myself...than anything else right now. Sorry....this did end up being a vent but at least for you...it gives you a different scenario to ponder at least? I amy feel differently later which I'm sure I will...but right now....I'm still really fighting what my T told me to do because as he said it.....what you want right now....doesn't count if you are going to break the cycle and I already know...that there are no guarantees there either? My own faith is what is being challenged but I do have a valid reason to feel the way I do?

All I want AT ALL.!!!...is to be treated with respect and that's the last thing that entire family operates under...and is completely missing as I see it? And that gets no respect from me because they haven't earned it.....period. End of story there....like less than "0"....and I just don't know what to do with that? I just don't know?

Get over it!!!! How long is appropriate...to grieve over a loss or death? One year...two years....three years? When it comes to my wife.....60 years is too long to grieve the childhood she didn't have? Life isn't fair!!! ADHD isn't fair!!!! Taxes aren't fair???? ( what ever lol )

60 years of being miserable and unhappy is no excuse now...for what happened to you when you were a child. Time to grow up and join the club.....like everyone else in the world!!!!! Your problems are no less or more....than anyone else who experiences a loss and then has to grieve. Staying inconsolable for your entire life...is a victim and a poor excuse. Actually...it's no excuse what so ever!!! Get over it and join the club.

The club of every human being that has ever been on this planet....and worse than you for God sake? She should be thanking her lucky stars she wasn't born a Jew in Nazi Germany for crying out loud!!! I'm not feeling the sympathy here...and I just don't get it!!! Her mother might have had a thing or two to say if that had been the case with her? I don't recall that they had bars in the concentration camps...at least the kind that sold booze, Football on TV and Buffalo Wings for appetizers? Ha! lol

I am sorry that it has come to this too. It certainly wasnt what I thought I was getting into, and it certainly wasnt the ending I envisioned even through all we have been through. All the while I have been punished by him because he thought I would end up leaving anyway - and he is the one doing the leaving. Never even attempting to really work at it. I guess it makes sense though. He stayed until he truly was going to have to "shit or get off the pot" so to speak. And when someone really doesnt love you, and really only cares about the life style you provide - putting in work is the LAST thing they are willing to do. I am sure he will find someone else to be with. I am sure they will stick around for a little while at least. Maybe one day he will find someone who he can really love.

None of it matters to me anymore. I am just waiting for the end of it. I will be giving him his notice when the time comes, and moving on with my life. He had every opportunity to convince me that he wanted this marriage, and he didnt. Couldnt even be bothered to put on his ring (even after he said he would). Its ok though. Its his loss. Not that he cares about loosing ME at all, but when it hits him how much his lifestyle will change, he will care. He is a handsome man, so I am sure he will find someone else to carry him quickly.

Nope - its me that will be left with the hurt, and the pain, and the betrayal of just being a lifestyle choice versus a partner to love and cherish. And that is A-OK with me, because I will get over it, and I will move on. My offense is exactly that - moving my life forward regardless of what he does, because what he does has no bearing on me anymore. We are spouses in name only. Even though he is still manipulating me by acting kind ... I know its only so that I will let him stay. I know that now. I didnt want to face up to that, as I am sure you can tell by my other posts. But I have to face the truth. Its the only way to become a better person and live an authentic life. I have zero desire to be with ANYONE who doesnt want to be with me.

There was a time when I would have been happy living homeless in a box on the street if that what our life became as long as he loved me and I loved him. It would have been enough.

What you are doing based on this post, is Mothering and Enabling...Which has lead to control....

I feel your frustration with the lack of action, and the intrusion that follows..( based on this post, it's probably a learned behavior of dependence, based on your personality, or the one you've adopted living w/ him) but, you cannot keep pressuring yourself to think you have no alterative but to think for him, and take control of situations, you feel he isn't handling to the standard you think he should....It's also obvious based on your post, that you feel trapped into it, or you have developed a fear of not intervening...(coming to the rescue!....But, you do have healthier options....More painful in the short term, but, much better in the long run....

He has a right to drive and old vehicle if he so desires, but, along with that, like every thing else in this life, comes responsibilities....You have the right to not be drug into his stuff....You can tell him, NO, I'm not your taxi...deal with it...Then quit thinking about it and walk away, and allow him to do it, no matter how different you would have handled it....I don't have to tell you what happen's to our marriages when we mother our spouse...When we feel we have to engage them in unhealthy ways like they were children....The first things that start going is respect, and the desire for intimacy.

Please don't think I'm being insensitive, or uncaring for your plight. Because nothing is further from the truth....Recognition of the Dysfunction is always easier for a neutral party, who doesn't have an emotional attachment....

<<You have the right to not be drug into his stuff....You can tell him, NO, I'm not your taxi..<<

Oh I wish I could say things like that without repercussions. My H doesn't just have ADHD, he has Borderline Personality Disorder. When I tell him things like your example, he breaks my things or throws them into some unknown dumpster. (I've lost 2 closets full of clothes ). Last week when I made him feel the consequences of his choices, he purposely broke 2 piece of my favorite china (the pieces cannot be replaced). He texted me after he did it to taunt me and "punish" me for holding him accountable.

I can't tell you how many things I've had destroyed because H get angry, particularly when he's being held accountable.

It is really horrible. Sometimes I pray that he dies. Sad that it has come to that.

I'm going to a family event next week so I will be out of state for 2 weeks. To make it easier on H, I'm trying to get as much done as possible with my business and at home, including making sure that pet food/supplies are stocked up. Today, H insisted that he come with me while I did my errands. We had to take two cars since my car needed a new battery. I told H that he didn't have to stay with me, he could leave any time to do what he wanted. H declined.

About 15 minutes ago he began yelling that he had to do too much today! And, he said that he wants his retirement back.

Tomorrow I will leave without him to finish some chores. He'll be mad at that, too. Can't win.

One thing that "turned" H's mood tonight was the 8th inning of the WS. The Cubs are H's team, and after the Indians tied the game up, H began to get more and more angry.

I know that many guys get in mad moods when their teams are losing or lose, but H takes things to a much worse level. He begins lashing out at me. When I try to respond, he shuts me down. Then later he'll say I was evil for not responding.

Based on this post it seems that you are jumping through his hoops out fear of reprisal...You are allowing his actions and moods to determine your next move...You've made yourself his puppet, and your fear is controlling you...This all boarders on abuse...How long do you think this Psychological game can continue?

You deserve more respect than that....

Your's is a case of he would either go to counseling w/ me or he would just have to make it on his own....Just my view; I feel for you, you have me empathy.