A Noble Existence? - Atheist Nexus2016-12-09T16:13:32Zhttp://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/a-noble-existence?xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYou'll get no argument from m…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21411492013-01-10T19:07:44.355ZJedi Wandererhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/AaronFeldman
<p>You'll get no argument from me there. It goes without saying that a "system" of morality derived from wishful thinking is illusory and transparently egotistical.</p>
<p>You'll get no argument from me there. It goes without saying that a "system" of morality derived from wishful thinking is illusory and transparently egotistical.</p> Mine is not an argument for m…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21410432013-01-10T18:06:28.708ZFuturehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Future
<p>Mine is not an argument for moral nihilism. Actually, my opinion is that the only way to legitimize the word "morality" is to precede it by the word "secular". Take away influences motivated by religious mysiticism, and you have a much less slippery concept. Generally, theists will still argue that there will still be instances unrelated to religion that are interpretted differently - but those are far more manageable.</p>
<p>For instance, outliers may argue that their idea of morality…</p>
<p>Mine is not an argument for moral nihilism. Actually, my opinion is that the only way to legitimize the word "morality" is to precede it by the word "secular". Take away influences motivated by religious mysiticism, and you have a much less slippery concept. Generally, theists will still argue that there will still be instances unrelated to religion that are interpretted differently - but those are far more manageable.</p>
<p>For instance, outliers may argue that their idea of morality is a death penalty sentence for people who involuntarily cause the death of others - but a reasonable debate can occur over that issue that does not rely on some obscure religious doctrine, that by its own definition cannot be questioned. There is such a thing as morality, and it is generally the basis of how secular laws are formed. Not all laws are just, but at least they have the ability to evolve with time and with their changing environment, unlike religious doctrine.</p> Valerie, I very much like thi…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21410392013-01-10T17:32:38.137ZJedi Wandererhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/AaronFeldman
<p>Valerie, I very much like this idea of yours that nobility is raising one's level of consciousness. I have certainly felt that this has a great deal to do with living a noble life. As Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth living". But is it necessarily the case? Let's examine what it means to have a higher level of consciousness and see whether that leads to a more noble existence. Certainly it's all a matter of degree, one person's elevated consciousness is another's depravity.…</p>
<p>Valerie, I very much like this idea of yours that nobility is raising one's level of consciousness. I have certainly felt that this has a great deal to do with living a noble life. As Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth living". But is it necessarily the case? Let's examine what it means to have a higher level of consciousness and see whether that leads to a more noble existence. Certainly it's all a matter of degree, one person's elevated consciousness is another's depravity. Are we talking about being able to see the world more objectively? If so, then maybe this leads to nihilism and despair. It ic certainly what has led me to question whether any of our motives can truly be considered noble. My thinking has led me to ask whether all of human endeavor isn't just an immense exercise of ego. We live as if our lives were inherently valuable, we simply take it for granted that our existence is good and see the world from an inside-out perspective, constructing our world's around the idea that we are "good", that what we ought to do above all else is exist, survive, and thrive. But of course the existence of a great many people is evidence to the contrary that human life is inherently valuable. What is it that separates the noble one's from the ignoble? I'm rambling I know, but an elevated consciousness, one that makes us aware that our value is not to be taken for granted, could in theory lead us to behave in ways which are more sustainable and more inclusive of other species and modes of existence, and this is certainly as far as I can see in the direction of what our species would need to do if it could rightly consider itself noble (and on this criteria alone, will likely fail miserably and reveal humanity to be, on the whole, a largely detestable creature). And then you could push it even further, asking whether existence itself is at all valuable. But then, I am forced to conclude that it is all that could be valuable, and of all possible experiences, the ones had with an elevated consciousness are assuredly the most noble. So, thanks Valerie! :-P</p> What do I consider to be nobl…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21406982013-01-10T15:46:04.468Ztxcricketthttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/ValerieHiggins
<p>What do I consider to be noble? The first thing that comes to mind are acts of heroism which actually put the rescuer at risk, and in which he has no thoughts of his own safety. Such as running into a burning building and rescuing children from a burning home. But is this noble or just an act of mindlessness or unconsciousness of what the loss would be to his own family were he to die in that attempt? I think nobility is stepping above the average consciousness of the masses. Stepping out…</p>
<p>What do I consider to be noble? The first thing that comes to mind are acts of heroism which actually put the rescuer at risk, and in which he has no thoughts of his own safety. Such as running into a burning building and rescuing children from a burning home. But is this noble or just an act of mindlessness or unconsciousness of what the loss would be to his own family were he to die in that attempt? I think nobility is stepping above the average consciousness of the masses. Stepping out of the crowd mentality. Still, the concept of being of service to others for me is definitely entwined with the concept of nobility. Living a noble life is about always reaching for the highest level of clear consciousness that I can be in and acting from that point of clarity in any given moment in my life. Leaving all the bs, history, chaos out of it. It is owning completely who I am and my talents and moving through life with that internal ownership. To me that is living a noble life. </p> Indeed, the two words are vir…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21410252013-01-10T14:55:13.030ZJedi Wandererhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/AaronFeldman
<p>Indeed, the two words are virtually interchangeable. Are you arguing for a moral nihilism? Are you saying that there really is no such thing as morality, that all our behavior is "one and the same"?</p>
<p>Indeed, the two words are virtually interchangeable. Are you arguing for a moral nihilism? Are you saying that there really is no such thing as morality, that all our behavior is "one and the same"?</p> You could replace "noble" wit…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21406942013-01-10T14:46:33.844ZFuturehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Future
<p>You could replace "noble" with the word "moral" and have a very similar dilema. I've had that argument with theists more often than I can count. One person's definition of morality is another person's definition of immorality. In Uganda, murdering gays is widely considered moral behavior. In Islamic extremist societies, killing infidels is considered not only moral, but neccessary. In Ireland, allowing a pregnant mother to die while her dying fetus kills her was a decision based…</p>
<p>You could replace "noble" with the word "moral" and have a very similar dilema. I've had that argument with theists more often than I can count. One person's definition of morality is another person's definition of immorality. In Uganda, murdering gays is widely considered moral behavior. In Islamic extremist societies, killing infidels is considered not only moral, but neccessary. In Ireland, allowing a pregnant mother to die while her dying fetus kills her was a decision based exclusively on a twisted perception of morality. The one thing these all have in common is that religion is the foundation for all of them.</p> I was just joking about Charl…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21409102013-01-10T14:25:50.842ZJedi Wandererhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/AaronFeldman
<p>I was just joking about Charlie Sheen, but you make my point for me; if nobility is open to such subjective interpretation and is hard to define, maybe it is an illusion. However, while there are some things which are highly subjective (vegetarianism, abortion, etc.), what seems crucial is an understanding that we should be "good", specifically to other people besides just ourselves. I'm not really completely down on the idea of living a noble life, but I am surprised at how little people…</p>
<p>I was just joking about Charlie Sheen, but you make my point for me; if nobility is open to such subjective interpretation and is hard to define, maybe it is an illusion. However, while there are some things which are highly subjective (vegetarianism, abortion, etc.), what seems crucial is an understanding that we should be "good", specifically to other people besides just ourselves. I'm not really completely down on the idea of living a noble life, but I am surprised at how little people seem to care about actually doing so, judging in no small measure by how little they even understand the concept.</p> I'm not the least bit competa…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21406922013-01-10T13:49:44.436ZFuturehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Future
<p>I'm not the least bit competative, and Charlie Sheen makes my skin crawl. I concede that my initial comment doesn't really address your question. However, what one person considers noble, another may consider to be ignoble. Some consider veganism to be noble, others think it is pointless and unhealthy. Some consider Homeland Security to be a noble defense against terrorism, others consider it an attack on our personal freedoms. Some consider the murderer of an abortion doctor to be…</p>
<p>I'm not the least bit competative, and Charlie Sheen makes my skin crawl. I concede that my initial comment doesn't really address your question. However, what one person considers noble, another may consider to be ignoble. Some consider veganism to be noble, others think it is pointless and unhealthy. Some consider Homeland Security to be a noble defense against terrorism, others consider it an attack on our personal freedoms. Some consider the murderer of an abortion doctor to be noble, most others would disagree. Noble, in the terms you are exploring, has a very slippery definition.</p> You're thinking of the "noble…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21408722013-01-10T04:23:38.603ZDr. Allan H. Clarkhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DrAllanHClark
<p>You're thinking of the "noble gases" which are inert and impervious to the attractions of passing ions anxious to bond.</p>
<p>You're thinking of the "noble gases" which are inert and impervious to the attractions of passing ions anxious to bond.</p> I thought a noble existence i…tag:atheistnexus.org,2013-01-10:2182797:Comment:21406672013-01-10T04:18:41.048ZMichael Blackhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/MichaelBlack
<p>I thought a noble existence is one that is nonreactive. Generally, "noble" is a term for those that don't compromise on their values or are not troubled by the more common concerns of the base population. Unfortunately, those values aren't valued equally across the spectrum of humanity. I'll pass on nobility.</p>
<p>I thought a noble existence is one that is nonreactive. Generally, "noble" is a term for those that don't compromise on their values or are not troubled by the more common concerns of the base population. Unfortunately, those values aren't valued equally across the spectrum of humanity. I'll pass on nobility.</p>