Monday, October 26, 2009

Fahrenheit 451 68-91 Period 2

173 comments:

Faber says, “Remember, the firemen are rarely necessary. The public itself stopped reading of its own accord.” (F451, p. 87) Why did they? Do you think there is a danger of this is happening in our own society? If so, how can it be prevented?

Why do you think that Montag was so quick to decide that books weren't bad? It seems kind of strange that he had those books all that time and he chose right then to change his mind about everything he knew. I thought that he would take some time to look through them and think about it for awhile before going to Faber and and planning to burn down all the firehouses. Why did he do that?

Margot- I think that people stopped reading because it was not something normal that everyone did. For example if tank tops weren't in fashion then no one would wear them, even if you were allowed to. Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean that everyone will.

Margot-I think that the public stopped reading on its own accord because they didnt think it was interesting. In the book, Montag talks about how everyone was just having fun and how other countries hated them for that. I think that there is a danger of this happening in our own society because not enough people read books anymore, everyone just watches tv and movies.

I think that society stopped reading because there was there is not a need for the knowledge. When the firemen burn the books, eventually society will not want to read books because of the consequences. When society wants information spoon-fed to them, the need and desire for knowledge from books is no longer present. I think in our current society there is a danger of this happening, though it may not happen for a while. More and more people don't pick-up books and hate reading. These people would rather get their information from mass media, where they don't have to think. It can be prevented by encouraging reading, which we already do, but also to make reading make rational, fun, and personal.

Grace,I think Montag decides that books are not a bad thing because he realizes that difference is a good thing, not a bad thing. Clarisse helped him realise this and now book are continuing this idea of being an individual.

I think that Montag always had the thought that books were not bad in the back of his mind and after clarisse and all this has happened it just pushed this idea into the front of his mind. I think that clarisse's allegid death was what pushed montag to question the system and weather books were good.

I think that, like Beatty said, it started when there was photography, motion pictures, and new technology. For example, how often do you see people come home from school and just sit and read? More likely they'll go straight to the television or computer. Society (in the book) just trained itself not to read. They take the easy and lazy way out.

Emily-I think that it was an add on the radio because he was on a train most of the time when he was saying it. I also think that he said it so many times because he was trying to read and take in what the words were saying, but instead all that he could think of was the commercial.

Logan: They were going to plant books in firehouses and then set alarms. THat way, the firehouses would have to be burned and then there would be no way they could continue burning books because they had destroyed the body of the organization/job.

GarrettNI think that the animal references may refer to the de sensitizing of the world. We dont think of a coyote as a person we think of it as a thing which is basically what everyone in this world has become.

Bradbury uses repetition in a very interesting way. So far he's used it quite a bit and I've taken it in a way that he's showing insanity, or time. Day after day he's being driven more into emptiness, and that silly advertisement definitely shows that something so simple can make him feel a whole different way.

grace:I think that he was so quick because of Clarisse. She was the person that showed him what information can do and he liked it. he wanted to go out and be like Clarisse and that was the way that he saw. BOOKS

Logan:I think that they were using ear pieces to connect to each other and they were planning to put books in different fire houses so that they would be burned down. It would also turn their whole society upside down if people realized that even the firemen, who burned people and books, were suddenly hoarding these books. It was all a plan to challenge the system.

In the discussion, Kara was saying how the firemen aren't burning the books, they are burning what is in the books. Would this mean that they would burn something else that has the same information as the books?

Logan-Faber and Montag were planning to print copies of books and smuggle them into the houses of firemen, this way they could incriminate the people trying to incriminate the people who do have books, taking down the government from the inside.

Grace,I think Montag wasn't quick to decide that books weren't bad. I think that he was denying that books werent bad and didn't want to believe it. I think that he knew if he started to believe and actally do something to help hide and read the books, he could never get out of the mindset that books are important.

Montag and Faber plan to find people that may have books and want to make change. Then, with their help, they are going to make copies of books, then plant them in fire houses all over the country (at least, I think it's the whole country). When the Hounds find all the books, the alarm will go off, and the firemen will have to burn down their own homes. Personally, I think that the firemen would have more common sense than that, but maybe they have to burn down anywhere that there are books as a law.

Garrett:That's a great connection. I hadn't noticed that before, but now that you mention it, you're right. Why do you think he does that? They are such opposites, technology and animals - man made, and nature. Is that intentional?

Logan-There plan was, well this is how I took it, they were going to copy the bible. After they did this they would distribute it to all the fire mens' houses and then call them in for having a book. This way all of the fire men will be eliminated.

Meredith:I think that that is the whole reason for burning the books. THe information that is inside, not just the bookitself. I think that they would burn something that has that information not just the books

MelanieA:I think that the repetition represents more insanity than time. As the ad goes on he becomes more irate than before. And when Ray Bradbury says 12 123 12 123 i think of the rocking back and forth of a person who has just received terrible news.

Logan: I think making them look like hypocrites might be part of the plan, but the main objective is to destroy firehouses. I think that when society sees that the firemen were keeping books, they might get curious on why. They might wonder why firemen are burning books and why they only get to read them.

Melanie-The reason they burn the books is to remove the quality and substance and permanence of a book. They probably would not burn anything else, because the thing that made the books different and "unfavorable" was the quality and the ablility to set it down and combining these two factors to act on them. Very few other mediums would be able to model this well.

Taylor:I think that Montag didn't pick out different books. Think about it, if books are illegal and if you want one, you wouldn't stand around reading through the covers, you would just quickly snatch it and hide it. I don't think he really chose the books, they were just a random assortment.

Class-I have a question. Because there are no thoughts that are generated through peoples' minds on their own, are dreams still existent? You can't control your mind while you sleep so do you think that people just don't have them anymore?

I think that Montag was hiding all kinds of books. I think every time they went to start a fire, he just took one book. After the first time, he could've decided that it was pretty easy, so he could just take more. So I don't think there was a specific genre, or author, or anything that he was taking; I think he just grabbed the first book he could.

Taylor:I don't think there was anything specific. They were just any books that he had collected and stole. He doesn't know books, though. He doesn't know what books are good, or boring, he doesn't know what lies inside of the books, just that his job is to burn them.

Daniel makes a good point about not burning the books but the information inside them. But they can't burn all information...

I think that the types of books that Montag is hiding are what they call "radical" books. I don't think that he would be hiding books that don't have strong opinions, or radical ideas. These books most likely are mostly books that have strong opinions, but I don't think he was very choosy. I mean he is breaking law. It's like choosing to rob a store at 12:00 or 12:02. Is sometimes just doesn't matter.

ZACI think that Faber and Montag are going to face the oppisition of both society and the government. I think that the people in society who do not think the way montag and faber do are just as afraid of the books as the government. They are facing somthing biger and stronger than them. I think its interesting how Faber talks about how much of a coward he is when really he is being brave and taking on somthing so large. He is trying to change a society which is a very intimadating thing.

Logan:I think you are right because there will always be some people that will rebel against the government. Even in communist countries there are rebellions. I think that war might play a bigger part in the story.

Shannon-That's a really interesting question. Most people dream something like over 50 dreams a night and they all exist from your self-conscience. But sometimes, dreams come through stuff you have been through during your life. So since they don't have any imagination really I think that they would almost just relive their days like a constant cycle.

I think it is moral because this is a case where the end would justify the means. What the firefighters are doing is immoral because they are taking away freedoms. Therefore, giving the freedoms back would be moral.

In the inner circle, they're talking about how they should only burn the few books that really make you think. I believe that this is because books that make you think aren't the ones that they're trying to burn. Like Beatty said, they're just trying to keep everyone happy. This means that they have to burn books that offend different races, religions, ethnicities, etc. There are so many different books that could be considered offensive that it's easier just to burn them all.

Continuing off of what Eric said, on pages 83-85 Faber describes why books are so different then what the comkmunity has in thier technology. He says quality is something that people learn to understand. The community lacks the understanding of quality and that is why people only watch the parlor. Do you think that with Montag and Faber spreading and helping people with books, do you think people will realize what "Quality" is?

Meredith- I think that they would destroy something that has the same information as books. However, they might not burn these things. They might use a different tecnique to destroy the items so that the people would not "rebel". It is true that not everyone would rebel, but there might be a Clarisse or another Montag who might persuade the people.

Anna:I don't trust her. She seems way too unstable to keep something like that to herself. I'm actually confused as to why Montag told her about the books. When Beatty was over, she tried to take the book under his pillow and show it in the open. What made him think she would keep all those books to herself?

Andy:I think the families are there to help control the people and make them feel sociable and secure. The families won't talk about books or anything intellectual. They won't somehow talk about war, or talk about old times. THey limit conversation and exchange of knowledge. Farther back in the book Clairess mentioned how there used to be porches on houses where people would talk.

Grace:I think every book: with their themes and symbols all make you "think" every book has a meaning to make you thin and challenge the system. One book as simple as "the ugly duckling" can make you reconsider if you are related to your family members and rethink who you are. Books not just like the bible make you "think."

Andy:I think that since the parlor walls talk between themselves they don't challenge people to think. When you go to see family they talk to you. But if you think about it, they really don't have anything to think about. Go back and look at Mildred and Montag's conversations, they are so incredibly simple. People don't really want to think, and to have an engaging conversation would be hard for them. So if they can just sit at home and listen to the parlor walls talk about nothing, it's easier.

zack-I know that their books are burned but consider what actually happens to THEM. It's obviously something quite horrible if not even the firemen know. Is it really right for them to be seeking revenge on the firemen.

Class-In the inner circle they are talking about curiosity. Do you think "Curiosity killed the cat," will apply to Montag? I realize he is the protagonist in the story, but could he result in just making the community worse by trying to spread books?

Grant:I think it's to comfort her. She's obviously out of whack over the books, so he tells him that it'll all be over once he goes through them. As long as she thinks there's an end to the books she doesn't have much of a reason to be concerned.

on page 73 montag says, "How in the hell did the bombers get u there every single second og our lives! Why diesnt someone want to talk about it? ... Is it because we're having so much fun at home we've forgotten the world? Is it because we're so rich and the rest of the world is so poor and we just don't care if they are? Ive heard rumors the world is starving, but were well fed." This quote says alot about society and how people not only have no indevidual thought about their own community, but they are also so caught up in themselves that the world is falling to pieces. What are your thoughts about this quote?

Zacc: Yes, I think Montag's plan will eventually backfire and he will be caught. I have a question though. Is there a jail? If they are controlled there shouldn't be any crime, so do they have prisons?

Grant:I agree with Melanie and Logan. It's to keep her quite and make sure she haws something else to look forward to or focus on. If someone that simple goes through as much stress as she is, they eventually have a mental breakdown. To keep her from having that, and exposing Montag's secret he uses the promise as a distraction.

Garret:I don't think they have a jail. They have asylums though. The asylum is just as good as a jail though. It's just a place to stay the rest of your life and be re-brainwashed. I think if the people become too much trouble they bring the Hound in.

Zac:Based on the way Bradbury writes, he's not really a "happy ending" kind of guy. Has anyone read The Martian Chronicles by him? It's similar in a weird, out of this world (literally) way. I doubt that he would make Montag start some sort of revolution and change the world. I think if he went the "curiosity killed the cat" way it would bring a bigger message than if Montag had the power to change society. Sometimes no change is bigger and more powerful than change itself, because to us, that is more shocking and upsetting.

Class-It is interesting to trying and decipher where the line is drawn on what forms of literature are allowed and what isn't. I think that as far as burning things they draw the line at just books, because of their unique characteristics. However, I'm sure there is some degree to which things are socially unacceptable, I wonder where this line is drawn, do people go to plays or concerts or poetry readings? what is allowed, what is socially acceptable?

Sydenyi:I think he is challenging the system because he is beginning to think for himself. He realized that the government is controlling their freedom and that they are keeping knowledge from them that could benefit society. At first he thought books were bad but once he started to read them he saw what the government was really trying to do. Mildred also read some of the books but she hadn't quite accepted the option that the government is corrupt and hasn't started to think for herself.

Garrett-I think that there were people like Montag who have "Challenged the system," and the government hides these people in a prison away from the society. A "crime" in Montag's society would be having a book, and punishment is burning the books. Do you think those people go to a prison?

Sidney:I dont think that there is a specific reason that it is happening now. I think that it is because of the way the cards fell. After montag met clarisse he began to think. I think that he just happened to have the epphiny now that he did not want to be controled and that he was going to do sonmthing about it.

I just think that it is so sad that society, even today, we focus so much on ourselves and not on others. In the news, the news at home takes over most of the time, and just a little of it is spent on the world. No matter that people are in famine and are dieing from disease, but our little cute stories about people doing crazy things are more important. It is so sad.

Sydney:I think that you are over analyzing this a little too much. Montag, for the first time in this society, has experienced someone like Clarisse and inside it changed her. Clarisse planted the seed and NOW it has started to grow. The seed FINALLY struck the right soil causing it to start to bloom NOW. I think it was almost destiny for Montag to be the one who absorbed her information instead of rejecting it like all the others.

I think that is what's socially acceptable is the kind of things that Mildred does, like the parlor, and White Clowns. Speaking of the White Clown, what is that? I don't think that it was ever explained in the book.

Melanie-I agree with what you are saying about Bradbury's style of writing. I would also like to add the fact that he sides with Faber, a character we don't know much about. Is Faber going to be what helps Montag make the "Change" or lead to his downfall.

shannon-I don't know about that. i think that they don't really have crime or anything so they have no need for a jail. the people that are problems the government either just eliminates them or puts them in a mental institute to change them.

I think that the people who live currently do not know life before the burning of books, but I think that these people know stories of people who lived with books. I do not think that they have had personal experiences, but have heard stories.

Sydney:Recent events set him off to think and act now. Has anyone ever seen the show Criminal Minds? They always talk about "stressers" and go back into a person's history to find out what event caused them to suddenly change their actions. I think the same thing applies here. First Clarisse showed up, with a personality and mindset he has never seen before. Then he started to think. Then, he watched a woman burn in her house along with her books. Wouldn't that change your outlook on life, on books? I know it would change me. That, I think, is why.

But Montag did not see Clarisse die. He doesn't know she's dead, she could be locked up. He doesn't know. How come he has such a passion for this? What has driven him to this state, this love for something he has never thought twice of?

Sydney-Think about it, this guy has just seen a woman burn herself to death, he has just met a girl who had a startling affect on his life and was just killed in an instant, probably murdered! If you add this up, plus the fact that this has been brewing for years because he already had a lot of books then it is just shy of fate that he would be challenging the system now.

Eric:Beatty mentioned that comics and magazines weren't banned because if you think about it, they don't really make people think. Comics are for entertainment and magazines are a form of media, which is abother way for the government to control society.

Another thing I forgot to mention was:Maybe it's ust Montag's personality. He has that gene that hungers for information. That WANTS to know why and will try anything to get the answer. The stubborness he has to challenge the system is in HIM.

I think that as for the "Why", it could be the speech that Beatty gave him, and what it taught him about why books were burned. It could also be that Mildred felt the book under his pillow (this is in pages 41-68), and he decides that she'll find out soon enough, so he figures it better be from him.

Everyone is afraid of firemen, so it's not that nobody is wanting to revolt, it's that they're scared to. They don't believe it's right, it's just what they were told. If you don't believe in what the government was doing, but they were enforcing it, would you be brave enough to revolt?

Sydney- He thinks that it is a possibility that she is dead. If he knows that she is willing to die or get locked up for what she believes, he must wonder what is so great about what she believes because dying, or the possibility of dying, is a huge statement for what she believes.

Kristen: I think that he is portrayed like this to represent everybody else. Everyone else is playing it safe and afraid to stand up for themselves. I think it shows that there could be more people that want to revolt but just need someone like montag to encourage them and lead the charge.

What do you think that the symbolism of the Sieve and the Sand is? I think that it's the fact that everything he used to believe is leaving him because of his curiosity. Like sand leaking out of a sieve, his past beliefs about books are slowly leaking out of his mind.

Class-I know this is looking pretty far ahead into the book, but how do you think the book will end? think about the formula of a book that Bradbury has provided for you, and how irony could play into that.

Anna:I agree that is pointless. After all people CAN exist and be illiterate. I think that the government needs them to read in case they need to get information through to them. For example, how to work their daily jobs might be on a direction sheet or something.

I believe that people are taught to read so that they can get information. If you think about it, when there is a newscast on, if you don't know how to read, there is no way to understand. The government may put information in the news, but the people must know how to read. In order to function in any society, even one without books, a person must be able to read.

Zach C.-I do think that "Curiosity will kill the cat". As a result of trying to spread the books, the government will take total control and brutally put down any disbelief. Once the government takes total control, the people, who don't think on their own, will hate books even more. The people will also hate books even more if they learn that a fireman was the one who got in trouble. This could also result in the people not trusting fireman.

Class:I'm curious about what Mildred will do. Will she turn him in? If she does, it means burning down her house and destroying her life. But would she feel pressured to do so?So basically my question is, do you think Montag will be forced to burn his own house?

Grace:That passage about the sand and the sieve was very deep in my opinion. Nothing could have described it better. The faster you fill the sieve, the faster the sand falls through, the words fall through, you can't take in the story, the books and the sand fall through because the sieve cannot hold the sand. The minds cannot hold the words.

I agree with you about the whole "Sand and the Sieve" thing, but I also see it as the the sieve is his mind and the sand is knowledge. When you put sand in a sieve, most of it falls through and only a little is retained. I see it that were Montag is trying to gain knowledge but it is falling through.

Eberger:I believe that you can't truthfully answer that question. I think that is like asking a vegan if they were trapped on an island with only meat if they would eat it. They would say no, but in life survival kicks in and they would most likely end up eating the meat. You can't answer questions that face danger until danger is looking you in the face. People train for the Navy SEALS all their life even dream about it, but when they get there it is so much harder than they even imagined.

Grace- I think he is so set on the fact on learning what the books mean that he may be slightly delirious. He is at a point where he doesn't want to live like the rest of the society so he wants to change it right now.

Could it be that since he's gone so long without getting any knowledge, that when the time finally comes and he tries to gain some, he can't? It could almost be like his mind forgot how to hold on to knowledge.

Class-As Ms. Smith is saying, the society in 451 has not had the ability to think. As our society is progressing we think less and less. Do you think we could end up living in a 451-like society? Is that why Bradbury wrote this book?

Logan:I don't think he will. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like it would "fit" in this story. If Bradbury was trying to make a point, what point would be made if change WAS possible? It doesn't make sense.

Andy:By looking at the cover of the book it's a man on fire. I think that the fire could resemble not actual fire, but resemble how one little spark could end up setting the whole world on fire. The phrase "That spread faster than wild fire" might relate to what I was saying before. Also the man on the front is made of pages from books and he's covering his face like he's in pain or thinking really hard. In his hand it looks like he's holding a Dunce cap. It looks like once he took that Dunce cap--the blindfold the government put over the public--off he started thinking really hard and trying to change things.

Logan- I think that he will bring change because when he acts out in any way, he may inspire all of the people who read the books to join him. Which there may be a lot of people who still read books if they are always going to their houses to burn their books.

Class:If no one can gain knowledge, then how can the government continue to exist? Who decides if a person is worthy enough for information? After all, the government has to know what is going on and be smarter then society, otherwise the system falls apart.

Zack-I agree that the ending will be controversial, but what exactly will it be. Think about the time period, I wonder if there will be exposure and betrayal involved, it seems like this would be a huge part of it, a failure in plan, but Montag refusing to let go. This would create irony because one of the things about a book is that you can put it down , but I don't think Montag will be able to "put the book down". This could lead to his downfall, being his fatal flaw. Success might come with his death though, like you predicted.

Logan-I think it is to early in the book to determine what the outcome will be. In my opinion I doubt that he will have any success because no one in their society cares. Not only this but they aren't interested in change so they obviously won't want to do anything about it. But that's just my opinion.