Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/stein.0796

From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 1 09:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47362 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More keen powers of observation
Date: 30 Jun 1996 23:34:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4r7h0m$fsu@access1.digex.net>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qkhnj$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4qtcfe$h5u@access1.digex.net> <4qvdga$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4qvdga$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>[Note: this article supersedes one with an error caused by one of my
>>occasional memory lapses.]
>
>>In article <4qkhnj$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>Mike Stein wrote:
>>>> Do you deny making those statements [that the "Vergasungskeller"
>>>>line was written by someone with a morbid sense of humor]?
>>>
>>> Do I deny making anything more than a guess? Yes. It is one document
>>>compared to thousands that make no such reference. The unique is what
>>>needs to be explained with other then PNE. I suggested a morbid sense
>>>of humor. And as you know, there has been absolutely no other
>>>possibility considered by the holohuggers.
>
>> And maybe some SS man had a pet monkey that got at a typewriter one
>>day and hit the jackpot. Why didn't you list that possibility as well?
>
> One can invent all kinds of silly possibilities. It remains that there
>are thousands of documents silent on the subject and a couple a three
>that use wording that can be inferred to imply gassing.
>
>>> And you have missed that upon more careful reading I have suggested that
>>>it is more likely a reference to two different rooms.
>
>> Only a 163 IQ type could catch on so quickly to what most everyone
>>else here knew before you even appeared at the beginning of the year.
>
>> Yes, it is a reference to two different rooms. There were two large
>>underground rooms, called on the plans Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller
>>2. The one whose construction supports could not be removed due to
>>weather was Leichenkeller 2, sometimes known as the undressing room.
>
> This is the one you folks are identifying as the gas chamber in today's
>truth.
No. Kremas II and III (in the numbering system where Krema I was in
Auschwitz, and II-V in Birkenau) were built to the same basic plan. Each
one had two underground rooms, referred to on that plan as Leichenkeller 1
and 2. Leichenkeller 1 is the gas chamber. Leichenkeller 2 was the
undressing room. Please keep in mind that these are different from Kremas
IV and V.
>It is not labeled or referred to as an undressing room in
>anything I have seen here or on Nizkor.
If you have not read the right file, or cannot understand or remember
what you have read, that is not my problem.
Are you sure you have your
>story correct? And the reference is to the wooden forms, not supports,
>making it the one with the poured concrete roof.
Forms, supports, we're talking about the same thing.
>That
>>was the one whose ventilation system was never installed, and which had no
>>airtight door, thus missing two key features you said were suitable for a
>>bomb shelter. Yet they kept the more expensive roof and they never put
>>the corpse chutes back into the design, either. How very strange.
>
> Now the story has been changed one more time. I find this intriguing.
The story has not changed at all. You are simply unable to keep it
straight in your own mind. There are multiple buildings and multiple
rooms under discussion, and you keep mixing them up and fail to understand
which building and which room is under discussion. Just as you are unable
to remember who posted what, and who is a pharmacist and who is not, you
are apparently unable to remember which building had which name and which
features.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 1 11:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What "DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY?"
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:33:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4qre7s$h4@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qjugd$el5@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4ql7pv$p43@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qnb6n$9bs@access4.digex.net> <4qo0ev$32n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4qo0ev$32n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ql7pv$p43@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4qjugd$el5@news-e2b.gnn.com>,
>>>>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Revisionists - I thought I would share this recent article by Mr.
>>>>>Grieb with the book. He has some fascinating insights.
>>>
>>>>>Pat Buchanan and the Diesel Exhaust Controversy
>>>>>By Conrad Grieb
>>>
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>>>
>>>
>>> And upon going there you find Stein, a man of not credentials in the
>>>subject whatsoever.
>
>> Appeal to authority, which Mr. Giwer has elsewhere identified as a
>>fallacy. Note that Mr. Giwer has identified nothing wrong with the
>>article. (Nor, come to think of it, has he identified his credentials in
>>this area.)
>
> Well taken. He posted an idiot response that had nothing to do with the
>substance.
>
> Feel better? Or are you the same Stein.
>
> The message ends "continued" but that is not a link to the rest. What
>ever that idiot Stein posted is forever lost.
After I agreed with Mr. Giwer that the link was missing, Ken told me
to check again. The 'continued' is not clickable, but there is a
clickable 'next' a few lines below it. (I was looking at it on a small
screen and guess I didn't notice the first time that I wasn't _quite_ all
the way to the bottom on the scrollbar.) I did put in a suggestion that
the 'continued' be clickable as well.
Meanwhile, let's see if Mr. Giwer can address the substance of the
entire article, which I posted as an earlier followup.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 1 11:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47417 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:27:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4qrdrp$92@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qko3f$da8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qni6g$bno@access4.digex.net> <4qo5dn$pvn@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4qo5dn$pvn@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qko3f$da8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>[...]
>
>
>>>>>>Then, of course, the Nazis used incineration pits, and of course, there
>>>>>>was the proposed Krema VI....
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever
>>>>>admit you made it up. There were common trash incinerators around
>>>
>>>> Around Auschwitz? Large enough to accommodate a corpse? Of course
>>>>you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever admit you made
>>>>it up.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to read your ideas of just how small the
>>>incinerators would be in the equivalent of a city of 80,000.
>
>> That's right - I guess you don't have landfill in Florida.
>
> You have just bracketed your age. There were NO trash landfills before
>the EPA got into banning incineration.
>
>> I don't know if they had any incinerators at all, as opposed to
>>landfill or pit burning. If you can document the existence of any
>>incinerators at Auschwitz at all, of any size, please do so.
>
> What a juvenile. When you learn something get back to me.
Of course Mr. Giwer is unable to document the existence of any
incinerators, so he has to resort to namecalling.
Mark Van Alstine has done Mr. Giwer's homework for him, however.
There was at least one incinerator (of unspecified size).
> What people have to realize is that we are faced with posts like this.
>They seem to believe that there was no history before they were born and
>that landfills were always the way things were done.
Mr. Giwer distorts what I said. Nothing I said implies that landfills
were always the way things were done. I also mentioned the possibility of
heap burning. I am quite aware that landfill is not the only method.
But Mr. Giwer provides no documentation about what was _actually_
present at Auschwitz. He must fall back on handwaving and calling names
because he cannot back up his empty assertion with documentation. Mark
Van Alstine had to do his homework for him.
> No matter how stupid that is, incineration was the preferred method up
>until the EPA got the power to ban it. There were no landfills prior to
>then. Incineration is cheaper. (speaking of bodies ...)
No documentation, just assertion. This may be true, but it proves
nothing about what the actual situation was at Auschwitz. Mr. Giwer is
handwaving here because he has no idea what the situation was at
Auschwitz, or didn't until Mark Van Alstine did his homework for him.
This despite the fact that Mr. Giwer has repeatedly told others to do
their own homework.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 1 11:59:36 PDT 1996
Article: 47419 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: why would anyone care?
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:40:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4qrek6$qa@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qletb$2jo@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4qletb$2jo@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
> May I suggest that Hitler was a victim of early onset Altheimer's and
>was a secret drooler since 1932. The only talent he had was making
>speeches.
>
> Therefore he was completely innocent of anything he is charged with.
>
> Now tell me, what would be the difference were this true?
>
> Not a damn thing.
Let's turn the question around. Let's assume you are correct, and
every death was the result of mistreatment rather than active murder.
Hitler and the rest of the Third Reich are dead. You can't do them any
good by providing evidence for an appeal. So tell me: why would you care
if they were innocent or not? By the argument you seem to be suggesting
here, you too are spending a lot of time on this for no constructive
purpose.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 1 11:59:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47424 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is seeing things
Date: 26 Jun 1996 13:42:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4qrsqp$bda@access5.digex.net>
References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4qce9h$jng@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4qnbg9$7hd@shiva.usa.net> <4qo2fb$76u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4qo2fb$76u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qce9h$jng@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com whines:
>
>> You have a real shit search routine.
>
>>Yes, and its name is "Matt Giwer."
>
>> In fact it is there in two places that I know of.
>> Why can't you find it?
>
>>Because it is not there at all! If it were, Mr. Giwer could provide
>>a pointer, instead of demanding that everyone else go on a wild goose
>>chase to "find it!"
>
> What wild goose? Someone claimed to have done a content based search
>and could not find it.
>
> He either lied about the search or Nizkor files are censored.
Since I did not lie about the search - I did a search which should
have found any file containing "Rudenko" even if broken across two lines,
as long as standard hyphenation rules were obeyed - I can only presume
that Mr. Giwer is playing fast and loose with the word "censored." Nizkor
contains excerpts from books, testimonies, etc. However, that is not the
same thing as deliberately omitting material with the conscious intent to
deceive or conceal relevant material. I'm sure Ken McVay would like to
have every word of every book ever written about the Holocaust online, but
there are certain logistical problems with that even if nobody objected on
copyright grounds.
If Mr. Giwer actually read a file about Rudenko prosecuting Hoess and
Hoess being acquitted, it either misspelled Rudenko's name or was on a
website to which Nizkor was linked, and Mr. Giwer did not notice that he
had linked over to another website. I could not find such a file through
an Altavista search on "Rudenko" either, however.
It is of course true that Hoess appeared at the IMT and was not found
guilty - for the same reason that Rudenko appeared at the IMT but was not
found guilty. A court can only pronounce a verdict on a defendant, not on
an unindicted witness, prosecutor, or attorney.
> How do I know?
>
> That is a riddle which is obvious to anyone paying attention to this
>conference.
>
> I have told several people the answer but no Nizkorite has figured it
>out yet. I would think it would be obvious by now.
That there be trolling here? That has been obvious for a long time.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 1 13:52:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Two trolls dissected
Date: 26 Jun 1996 13:20:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4qrrgp$agu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4pl6aj$cj5@news.usaor.net> <4qd258$hcb@dfw-ixnews <4qkke5$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:34722 alt.revisionism:47456
In article <4qkke5$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>> Try Dejanews if you missed it.
>
>>Giwer chooses not to present actual references. As has been pointed out in
>>the past, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to
>>document it.
>
> And since holohuggers have used DejaNews in place of presenting actual
>references. Is that not accepted practice here? When did the rules
>change?
The rules never changed. DejaNews is an acceptable reference - but
_only_ if the URL is provided, as I have usually done when citing DejaNews
and will do if challenged on any citation. Saying "DejaNews" with no URL
is about like saying "in some book in some library."
Nonetheless, I will attest that there has been adequate documentation
presented here that some unarmed SS guards were shot at Dachau. I have
never seen Mr. Ferree claim that he _participated_ in that shooting.
However, Mr. Giwer never _really_ said he had. You see, Mr. Giwer
frequently uses language in deceptive ways. He trolled by replying that
Mr. Ferree "told a great story about it" in response to a two-part
question - but that answer is vague and can refer to just the first part
of the question.
Similarly, it would not surprise me if Mr. Giwer's accusations that I
had deleted his calculations was a deliberate deception based on the fact
that I deleted some computations of fat percentages. But since the
immediate subject of discussion was calorie requirements, the deleted
computations were not directly relevant. The phrasing was misleading and
therefore dishonest.
You will notice that I was very careful in my reply to state _which_
computations I had never deleted. So far Mr. Giwer has had no answer to
that. This strengthens my belief that the claim was a troll based on
ambiguous wording. I was very precise in my reply, and it left no room to
wiggle around with ambiguities.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 1 17:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47510 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No surprise
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:33:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4r995e$87q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qdqfe$i3f@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4qt1vd$eli@access1.digex.net> <4qtd49$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31D31C10.2EAA@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31D31C10.2EAA@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>> mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> > Did you ever find those computations of the number of calories needed
>> >to deal with the water in order to ignite a corpse? Remember, show all
>> >assumptions and formulas used.
>>
>> Sure did and posted them many times. They were not your idiot Pure
>> Jewish fat from Hebrew Union. You should try another provider.
>
>No you didn't. Are you suggesting that my provider, which has never
>missed any previous articles, should start specifically missing yours
>on one particular topic?
Of course, if he never did any computations, then it could be argued that
he made a true statement in saying that they were posted many times. They
would simply be unrecognizable as computations due to their nonexistence.
Here are all my computations on the fuel needed to lift a Saturn V:
And blank lines have appeared many times in my posts.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 2 06:55:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:41:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4r99kd$8ks@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4r5snv$180@news1.io.org>, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>In <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>> Mt. Grynspan, sir.
>>
>> You have read a 10 to 1 ratio saying that I have gotten control of
>>alt.revisionism and you have read their declaration of defeat.
>
>You fool yourself. Several people here could demonstrate their ability to take you
>on, Matt - with little difficulty. Their problem is not that they lack the ability -
>merely the experience.
>
>>
>> Now you are the only person I would consider one on one who is here.
>>
>> You have also stated you know how to deal with me.
>>
>> The following is a challenge.
>>
>> DO SO.
>>
>
>When I've completed other tasks. This area is *NOT* one of high priority for me
>now and, I'm sorry to tell you, such a battle is not worth the time - unless you're
>willing to pay what my clients pay me.
Well, while Mr. Giwer is waiting for Alec to get unbusy, perhaps he would
like to occupy himself with a computation of the number of calories required
to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse. Or perhaps he will point
out the many errors in the rebuttal I wrote to Friedrich Berg's work. (Maybe
he'll surprise us and actually cite references other than the usual "Because!
I! Say! So!") These are both very much on topic and he has told us how much
he wants to stick to the topic of revisionism. I'm just sitting here
waiting....
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 2 06:55:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47654 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:51:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4r9a7d$93r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>
> Do you folks really want to continue this?
I don't attack anyone for questioning the holocaust dogma. I attack
people for lies and intellectual dishonesty. Occasionally that includes my
supposed allies.
Why don't you attack the many errors in my response to Friedrich Berg now
that I have posted the whole thing? It's on topic. What are you waiting for?
Don't you want to continue this on-topic discussion of a particular
revisionist theory?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Jul 2 13:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47739 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 2 Jul 1996 03:28:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4raj2e$ae6@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
> From their own website...
>
>[snip]
>
>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>are Jewish sources.
>
> Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>from their own site. We all know that it what it is.
Yes. Off-topic. I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
track?
>
> It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.
[Poem snipped]
Mr. Giwer, the posting of Vogon poetry is a violation of the Geneva
Convention.
> It also appears they want this man dead.
>
>JDL in America
>
> David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
>
>
>By Robert J. Newman
>
>He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
>deception. Just like a
>low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
>his venom to
>innocent victims.
>
>This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
>denier of
>the Six Million Jews.
Of course, the revisionists haven't liked him too much since he
announced that he is satisfied that there was a homicidal gas chamber
built and used at Natzweiler.
I wonder if he has any friends left at all.
[remainder deleted]
Aside from the part about Cole, how is this on-topic for this
newsgroup? I thought you wanted to stick to the topic?
Any cremation computations yet? Or any reaction to my article in
rebuttal to Berg's paper?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 3 07:37:17 PDT 1996
Article: 47857 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Funding for the Holocaust Museum
Date: 2 Jul 1996 13:46:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rbna9$dv@access5.digex.net>
References: <4piskm$5ep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qfv3q$2uc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article ,
wrote:
>In article <4qfv3q$2uc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ruthsommer@aol.com
>(RuthSommer) wrote:
>> And it also bothers me a great deal that although the Holocaust occurred
>> in Europe
>> over a half-century ago, and happened to and by non-Americans, it is now
>> funded by
>> American taxpayers and it takes up a big amount of real estate in our
>> nation's capital.
>>
>
>BZZZZT! Wrong, but thanks for playing. The Holocaust Museum is NOT funded
>by taxpayers, except in the sense that I'm a taxpayer and I DONATE to the
>Museum.
I regret to inform you that this is incorrect. According to fundraising
literature I have received from the museum itself, there is an annual
appropriation for the museum's operations. It does not cover all the costs, but
it is there.
Posted/emailed to both.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 3 07:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47922 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Looking for serious debate
Date: 2 Jul 1996 11:48:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4rbgbl$me2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qq5f0$f2v@news.enter.net> <4qspg4$8br@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qv97j$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4qv97j$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote (to Yale Edeiken):
>
>>> This is not only good analysis, but the kind of response I was looking
>>> for. Further comments on Rudenko's skill are forthcoming.
>
>>It's good to see that Ehrlich606 still thinks that there is worthwhile
>>discussion taking place on alt.revisionism, despite Giwer's best efforts.
>
> You folks did the usual "post the messages" game when I pointed out it
>was the holohuggers who did not wish to engage in serious debate.
Still waiting for Mr. Giwer to produce his computations of energy
requirements needed to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse cor
cremation, showing all formulae and assumptions used, with proper
references. So far all I have seen is the "I posted it/I never said that"
game. I've asked if anyone else has seen those computations, and nobody
has pointed them out to me, not even the other revisionists.
Now that I have made things simple by posting my article in one piece,
maybe he'd like to take on the diesel issue instead, again with proper
references and arguments rather than "Because! I! Say! So!"
Or does Mr. Giwer not wish to engage in serious debate himself?
>Rather than that I have been pointing out the messages where it is still
>demonstrated they do not want serious debate but rather engage in
>insult.
>
> You can tell them by either a specific notice of same being appended or
>a true fact about step cleaning or steaming being appended.
I cannot have a _serious_ debate without a serious opponent willing to
hold one according to the well-established rules, which include proper
documentation of sources and no lying, deceptive editing, distorted
paraphrase, intentional misrepresentation of data or of the opponent's
position, or other dishonest games. Literacy is also required, as is the
ability to keep straight what has been said.
I would say Mr. Beaulieu is the most qualified person but he is harder
to deal with because of the language barrier. (I know I still owe him a
response on the issue of "Breaking the Silence;" lately I have had zero
time for library research.)
I have seen no evidence that Mr. Giwer is qualified.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 3 15:06:15 PDT 1996
Article: 48019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: 3 Jul 1996 12:05:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <4re5ou$och@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qv45n$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48019 alt.censorship:87370 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:109 alt.usenet.kooks:26336
In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>Nizkor. Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>and says he found no such mention. Therefore the material is censored.
That is a very bizarre definition of censored. Nizkor does not contain
all material related to the Holocaust and makes no claim that it does. There
are financial, logistical and legal problems with doing that.
Material cannot be put on Nizkor until someone has read it.
Except in the psychological definition, censorship carries the
connotation of a conscious intent to conceal information. And even on the
psychological definition, there has to be some opportunity for awareness
before the censorship can truly be said to exist.
Hilberg is unfamiliar with many books about the Holocaust just as I am
confident that Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with books about physics - _nobody_
has the time to read everything that is published on a topic. Ken McVay is
certainly no exception, nor am I.
If a library is unaware of a book, it is not censoring the book by not
carrying it. If it would like to buy it but ran out of funds before it could
be purchased, that is not censorship either by any reasonable use of the
word.
Why is Altavista unable to find the information on a revisionist site?
Would Mr. Giwer agree that Zundel's site and Bradley Smith's site and Greg
Raven's site are also censored, then? One would certainly think they would
play the information up for all it's worth - yet they don't seem to have it
either, not if "Rudenko" should yield a match.
> Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>this? All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>time you folks are unable to find those mentions.
This is what Mr. Giwer wrote originally:
You really should search off of the "guess the filename"
possibilities to discover that General Rudenko lost the case
against the infamous Rudolph Hoess on charges of gassing for lack
of evidence of gassing from the people who were there at the
time.
You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
investigator of war crimes.
(Source:
http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1879190&server=dnserver.dbapr)
The original wording of the claim certainly conveyed the impression he
had read the original information on Nizkor. If he means that there is a
book cited by Nizkor which contains the information, but the material quoted
>from the book which appears on Nizkor does not include that information, that
is not the meaning of "you will find the supporting evidence ... on the
Nizkor site." He should have said, "You will find a reference to the
supporting evidence...." Mr. Giwer has previously reminded us that the name
of the song is different from what the name of the song is called.
But even in that case he has presented no evidence that the information
was seen and consciously omitted. "Nizkor is incomplete" is a statement for
which there is ample evidence, starting with the "under construction -
permanently!" part of Ken McVay's .sig. Censored is another matter.
I can make a much better case that the revisionists have provided
censored material - e.g., citations of Arno Mayer, Gitta Sereny, Pressac, and
Himmler in ways that seriously distort the meaning of their words and might
deceive a naive reader into thinking that these people advocated a position
which they did not in fact advocate by any honest reading of their full
words.
In any event, all we have from Mr. Giwer is still unsupported assertion -
he has given no reference. In serious debate, unsupported assertion is
worthless. The reader will note that per my usual habit, I gave a DejaNews
URL to allow verification of the accuracy of my quote of Mr. Giwer's words.
Mr. Giwer is not in the habit of providing references to allow someone to
verify his assertions without exhaustive search. Is Mr. Giwer interested in
serious debate or isn't he? This "I'm right but I'm not going to tell you
how I know" game doesn't look like it to me.
It should be noted that Mr. Giwer appears to have misread text on
multiple occasions. For that reason alone it would be irresponsible to
accept what he says here as true without independent confirmation.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 3 18:48:42 PDT 1996
Article: 48052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 3 Jul 1996 12:55:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4re8m7$qn0@access5.digex.net>
References: <31d31a33.1226300@news.eden.com> <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606 wrote:
>Matt Giwer deserves a lot of respect. He is not trained in history,
Neither is Ken McVay, Jamie McCarthy, nor myself. So what?
>he does not have a large historical library, a scanner, or access to primary
>materials.
Also true of many others posting here. So what?
I believe Ken McVay has a scanner (I may be wrong even now), but at best
it is a fairly recent acquisition. And how do you know what Mr. Giwer does
and does not have?
>And yet he still scores points, gives as good as he gets,
He gets detailed references. He does not give as good as he gets.
>and takes the heat, mostly alone.
Substituting "science" for "history" in your text so far, I could make a
similar statement about Brian Zeiler, who is critical of the orthodox
scientists with regard to UFOs. Wonder what Mr. Giwer would say about that
one?
>His lack of accuracy
Er, um, I think that writing in one post that one will need on the order
of 30,000 kcal to boil off the water in a body, and writing in a later post
that he never made such a claim is a bit more serious problem than would be
normally envisioned by the mild phrase "lack of accuracy."
> is more than compensated by his refusal to accept
>counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>authority.
But he has advanced arguments that are exactly appeals to authority.
Haven't you noticed? What was really funny was the time where he quoted text
>from a website when he was arguing against those who said Israel had no
written constitution - but dismissed the same site when it was pointed out
that his own source explicitly said that Israel had no written constitution.
(You weren't posting here then, so you probably had no chance to see that
one.)
Let's review the bidding (to use one of his phrases). What I see you
saying is that the truth is less important than the attitude. I respectfully
disagree.
>I don't always agree with the language he uses, but his
>general dynamism, and skepticism, are eminently praiseworthy. If I had to
>endorse an approach to life, I would much rather endorse an approach that
>was skeptical and questioning, than one which was defensive and
>harrassing.
Excuse me? I have been nothing but skeptical and questioning of
revisionist claims. And that skepticism has been well-founded. Do you want
a list of times when a check of the sources cited by a revisionist turned out
to say something _very_ different from what was claimed?
So I'm being skeptical, and I think I've been pretty dynamic now and then
in researching matters and presenting a case. Gee, does that mean I have an
excuse to lie when doing so?
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 3 22:42:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48094 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a new approach
Supersedes: <4rer93$d5r@access5.digex.net>
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:24:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <4rervq$doo@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>>> Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated
>>> Keren spams would it not?
They do come much less frequently.
>>Mr. Giwer, you have sent almost half a megabyte worth of articles to
>>the net in less than two weeks, none of which contain a single byte
>>of text which has not been posted previously.
>
>>Almost 500,000 bytes, and not a single one of them is new:
>
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty
>
>>In two weeks.
>
>>The figures speak for themselves.
>>--
>> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> jamie@voyager.net Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.
>
> But as you know they were all in response to mindless attacks on me.
This is not true.
> So why do you complain about my response rather than the attacks?
As you yourself have sometimes said, a mere statement of fact is not a
mindless insult. You have made arguments which fit the description of "ad
hominem." You have responded with canned text when someone pointed that
out.
You have made false and/or misleading statements which any normal
person should have known were false and/or misleading at the time they
were made. E.g, denying having posted something that to any ordinary
reader looked like a claim of 30,000 kcal for boiling off the water in a
corpse of unspecified weight and water percentage. A normal person is
expected to remember what he himself wrote within the past couple of
weeks. Either your original wording was grossly misleading, or your
denial was false or grossly deceptive with the presumption that it was
deliberate, or your denial was grossly deceptive because you are secretly
allowing multiple people to post from your account. Which is it?
Conflicting statements such as yours about the 30,000 kcal figure are
generally described as lies, and people who make them are generally
described as liars. That is not an attack. That is a statement of fact.
I have twice posted the DejaNews URL and relevant text in response to your
denial of making a 30,000 kcal claim. Perhaps you would like to explain
the discrepancy someday.
I am very scrupulous about distinguishing between a lie and a possible
legitimate error. When I point out that someone is a liar in direct
response to a proven lie I am only making a statement of fact. When I
call someone a liar in response to an unsupported assertion, I do not
intend it as a personal attack. It is intended as a warning that this is
a person whose previous behavior shows that unsupported assertions are
even less trustworthy than normal. But I don't expect others to swallow
my unsupported assertions without question either. I make mistakes on
occasion. I have previously said that I will respond (within reason) to
challenges to document anything I say which is unsupported. I am saying
it again.
(Email copies are requested to make sure I see them. Just indicate in
the email that it is a copy of a public post.)
> Could it be you are biased in some manner?
Jeff Roberts posts "repeats" much as Daniel Keren does, maybe a little
less. I _have_ seen it referred to as spam by a couple of people, but I
take it as hyperbole. I am not aware of anyone complaining to his ISP or
making a _serious_ charge of net abuse. Are you? Perhaps there is a
lesson to be drawn here.
I'm just marking time until I find someone who is interested in
holding a serious debate about some aspects of revisionism. I rather like
cremation energies and diesel exhaust myself; I've done some small
research into those topics, but am always interested in learning more.
But I cannot have that discussion until someone comes along to pick up the
other side of it. If you hear of anyone please let me know.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48121 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS FORGERY
Date: 3 Jul 1996 15:51:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4reiv7$6n2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
someone pretending to be Matt Giwer wrote:
>I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights. My usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters
>of obscenity or indecency, or both. It is obvious that rational discourse
>with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.
Sorry, it would take at least four pounds of rugelach to break down my
moral fiber.
It would probably do a number on the fiber of my pants waists, too....
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48122 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forging Ahead
Date: 3 Jul 1996 16:36:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4reljv$8rv@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra3ub$aat@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4ra3ub$aat@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606 wrote:
>
>
>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)
>
>I moved on to the last major subject of his testimony: the forgery
>of the Travniki document. Tolstoy remarked that document forgery of all
>kinds had been an important element of KGB activity from the moment it was
>founded. He gave as an example the forgery of reports to show that the
>Germans and not the Soviets had murdered 15,000 Polish officers in the
>forest near Katyn in 1941. [....] An entire division of the KGB, known as
>*Division 14,* dealt solely with the forgery of documents. Tolstoy
>related that in his book, *Stalin’s Secret War* he had dwelt on document
>forgery by the KGB, and had therefore studied the subject in depth.
>Towards the end of this session, an authentic report was submitted that
>demonstrated the sophistication of the KGB’s forgers. According to
>Tolstoy, no document should be ruled authentic simply because certain
>details, such as seals and words, are correct. This assumption is
>especially invalid because the historical details were well known to the
>KGB forgers. p. 171
>
>Why am I not surprised to read this?
I am surprised. I keep seeing claims that the Trawniki cards were
incredibly clumsy pieces of work, with anachronisms, upside-down rubber
stamps, reversed photos, etc. This is inconsistent with the claim that
the KGB forgers were knowledgeable and sophisticated.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48129 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 3 Jul 1996 16:27:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <4rel2t$88n@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4raj2e$ae6@access1.digex.net> <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>> From their own website...
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>>are Jewish sources.
>>>
>>> Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>>from their own site. We all know that it what it is.
>
>> Yes. Off-topic. I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>>track?
>
> It has been clearly pointed out that Nizkor is clearly a subject here.
>I have even used their files to deal with the current form of the myth.
Would you like to explain the connection between the JDL and Nizkor
other than both having some sort of interest in David Cole? I seem to
have missed it.
>>> It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.
>
>>[Poem snipped]
>
>> Mr. Giwer, the posting of Vogon poetry is a violation of the Geneva
>>Convention.
>
> A death threat however disguised is still a death threat.
Now, how do you know they are not just saying what would turn on a
paranoid?
I wouldn't go so far as to call any threat to repost the poem a death
threat, but it certainly seems capable of causing severe nausea in anyone
who knows anything about poetry.
>>> It also appears they want this man dead.
>>>
>>>JDL in America
>>>
>>> David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
>>>
>>>
>>>By Robert J. Newman
>>>
>>>He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
>>>deception. Just like a
>>>low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
>>>his venom to
>>>innocent victims.
>>>
>>>This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
>>>denier of
>>>the Six Million Jews.
>
>> Of course, the revisionists haven't liked him too much since he
>>announced that he is satisfied that there was a homicidal gas chamber
>>built and used at Natzweiler.
>
>> I wonder if he has any friends left at all.
>
> I could care less. They clearly appear to want him dead.
*shrug* If I were in charge of the JDL things would be different. If
you were in charge of the IHR, would things be any different?
>>[remainder deleted]
>
>> Aside from the part about Cole, how is this on-topic for this
>>newsgroup? I thought you wanted to stick to the topic?
>
> The Gang of Six is clearly on topic here until the coordinated effort
>stops.
It can't stop until it starts. If I am supposed to be part of the
Gang of Six it can't start until I agree to go along with it. I deal with
people on my own terms, as you know.
>> Any cremation computations yet? Or any reaction to my article in
>>rebuttal to Berg's paper?
>
> What is your problem here? Still can't reconcile that pure jewish fat
>in the Hebrew Union sausage?
The pure fat and I get along quite well, as long as I don't make it
part of my daily diet. Still approximately 9 dietary calories (i.e.,
kilocalories) per waterlogged gram of fat cells. I cannot change that
until I learn enough about genetic engineering to produce a cow whose body
synthesizes Olestra.
As I never made a claim that I could compute the number of calories
needed to boil off the water in a 70kg corpse, nor did I ever make a claim
that the witness must have been lying on scientific grounds, I am not the
one who has a problem here with backing up my claims.
Is there some other personality posting from your account making
claims you don't know about? Maybe you should change your password.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 17:39:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 913
Message-ID: <4rep9t$boe@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r9a7d$93r@access5.digex.net> <4ra4ga$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4ra4ga$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.
>>>
>>> Do you folks really want to continue this?
>
>> I don't attack anyone for questioning the holocaust dogma. I attack
>>people for lies and intellectual dishonesty. Occasionally that includes my
>>supposed allies.
>
>> Why don't you attack the many errors in my response to Friedrich Berg now
>>that I have posted the whole thing? It's on topic. What are you waiting for?
>>Don't you want to continue this on-topic discussion of a particular
>>revisionist theory?
>
> Berg who? Do you have a thread name?
Do you now ask to be exempt from the Giwer Rule? The one that states
that you are responsible for reading everything that is posted and
remembering it? The one that says if you cannot take the time to follow
the discussion then you are not qualified to participate here? That is
the rule you yourself established for this newsgroup.
But this time I will not enforce it. Here is the whole enchilada.
Again. Would you like me to email it to you as well? (Actually by
another rule you once announced I have the right to do that whether you
ask for it or not.)
This article discusses the errors and deceptions contained in
Friedrich Berg's "proof"[1] that it would be nearly impossible to use
diesel exhaust to kill people as described by the witnesses to the
Reinhard death camp gassings. The case is given in nontechnical
terms, though for those who want to wade through the detailed
technical arguments, they are given in an appendix which reproduces
the case with full details and references.
Still, people are encouraged to read all the details. One thing
"scientific" Holocaust deniers like Berg and Fred Leuchter count on
is the fact that many non-scientists can't follow scientific debates,
and assume that if it is dressed up in scientific terms, it must be
right. But there are many other scientific debates we see today -
pollution, cancer, global warming, etc. - which enter into the
political arena. Some of these arguments are made to support a
hidden ideological agenda, and the science is dishonest. We hope that
following the full argument will help people realize that just
because something comes dressed up as "science" doesn't mean you
should stop thinking critically about what you're being told.
Berg's arguments boil down to the following:
1) Diesel engines, unlike gasoline engines, do not produce
large amounts of carbon monoxide (CO) under normal operation,
and it is extremely difficult to get them to produce levels
of CO sufficient to cause death within the time reported by
the witnesses.
2) Eyewitnesses described the corpses from a diesel gassing
as blue in color - but acute carbon monoxide poisoning victims
are red.
3) Furthermore, the Germans had much better ways to produce
carbon monoxide than diesel engines (the "producer gas"
trucks and busses), so using diesels makes no sense.
Therefore (reasons Berg) contrary to the assertion of historians, the
victims were _not_ killed by carbon monoxide.
4) Diesel engines normally produce a fairly high proportion
of oxygen in the exhaust, so people would not die of
asphyxiation in the amount of time claimed by the witnesses.
5) Even if the above were not true, if execution were to be
by asphyxiation, there was no sense in running the engine -
it would have been sufficient to seal the victims in an
airtight chamber, so pumping in exhaust for asphyxiation
made no sense.
Therefore (reasons Berg) they were not killed by asphyxiation
either; the whole affair is a hoax.
There is a core of truth to all of the five points. Point (2) above
is often true, though not always. However, as Berg failed to mention
in his paper the witness, SS hygienist Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel,
explicitly mentioned asphyxiation as the cause of death[2]. Point
(1) is not so true as Berg believes, but given point (2), it is
quite possibly irrelevant.
Berg relies heavily on "psychological" arguments such as points (3)
and (5), the idea that the SS personnel in charge of the death camps
would have done things in better ways if they had really wanted to
kill people. For example, in Usenet alt.revisionism article
<2vt3du$t0b@mary.iia.org>, Friedrich Berg wrote: "[Scott] Mullins
should try to run a heavily-loaded 150 HP engine, that is still
small, with a propeller or fan in a closed loop without making lots
and lots of noise."
Is Berg trying to argue that the Nazis wouldn't have committed mass
murder with diesels because they would have been too afraid of
getting a ticket for violating noise ordinances?
In the same article, Berg also wrote, "Since the load of any fan or
propeller varies non-linearly with RPM, it is still quite a
trick to choose the right sized fan or propeller. Ivan with the big
wrench won't know how."
Here Berg is actually arguing two contradictory things at once.
If this had been done, "Ivan," of course, wouldn't have done it. It
was the Nazis who created the system, not the Russians or Ukranians.
The Russians just built the original engine. The Nazis would have
modified it. Is Berg saying the Nazis wouldn't have known how to do
this? Is Berg saying the Germans had no competent engineers? On the
other hand, arguing that an unsophisticated "Ivan" was responsible
for the idea and the modification damages points (3) and (5), that it
wouldn't have been done because it wasn't a good idea technically.
An unsophisticated person would probably not realize that there's
anything wrong with using a diesel engine to generate carbon
monoxide. This sort of self-contradictory argument is one advanced
by a defense lawyer, not a scientist.
Although Berg says it's very difficult to tinker with the engine to
produce high CO levels, the same technical papers he quotes in his
own paper show that the authors were able to produce CO levels up to
6% by adjusting the fuel system. It may also have been possible to
block the air intake to alter the fuel/air mixture. Berg cannot
escape the fact that if the authors of his own references were able
to produce lethal exhaust from a diesel, so would an SS technician.
Still, due to the testimony about the blue color of the bodies, the
one crucial point on which Berg may very well be correct is that
contrary to popular belief, the people who died in chambers fed by
diesel engines didn't die of acute CO poisoning. From this he would
like people to believe that if they didn't die from that cause, as
commonly believed, the whole story must be a hoax.
However, there are many separate pieces of evidence all pointing
to the conclusion that hundreds of thousands of people entered the
camps of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec and never emerged alive.
There are records of rail shipments of people going in, and large
quantities of clothing - but not people - going out. There are
reports from the Polish resistance corroborating this. There are
large quantities of bones. There are testimonies from the few
survivors as well as many guards in the camp. To this day only two
of the approximately 600,000 people sent to the camp of Belzec have
ever been found alive.
So if Berg is correct that the victims did not die of carbon monoxide
if gassed with diesels, how did they die? Unfortunately, since the
camps were destroyed before the end of the war, and the gas chambers
and engines with them, it is not possible to reconstruct precisely
what happened. Nevertheless, it is possible to work out the
possibilities and determine the _general_ cause of death, if not the
precise combination of causes. Actually, Berg had the answer all
along, but refused to see it - or pretended not to. They probably
did die of some form of asphyxiation, with other contributing
factors.
How can this be, if Berg "proved" that there is too much oxygen in
diesel exhaust for this to be possible? There are a number of
significant items Berg overlooks. First, diesels also produce fairly
high levels of nitrogen oxide (NOx) compounds, which are also toxic.
Berg only discussed the long-term carcinogenic potential of these
chemicals, but in sufficient concentration they have short-term toxic
effects as well - 250 to 500 ppm of NO2 or N2O4 is "rapidly fatal"
all by itself[3]. While there is no way of telling if the levels
were this high in the diesel gas chambers, as there are many
variables involved, Berg's own principal source on diesel exhaust
composition gives NOx emissions as high as 690 ppm in one test -
depending on the precise distribution of compounds, possibly a lethal
dose within the allotted time even without the additional
considerations given below.[4] Many test run results from the paper
are in the 267-448 ppm range - a significant contributing factor,
even if not the sole cause of death. Interestingly, the highest
concentrations were achieved at a fuel-air ratio of just under 0.03
and an engine speed of 600 RPM - a significant fact given Berg's
insistence that only at higher fuel-air ratios does diesel exhaust
become sufficiently toxic to kill in the half hour reported by
witnesses.
Second, the people in the chambers would have an elevated respiratory
rate due to panic, the exertion of being run into the chambers, and
high levels of carbon dioxide (CO2), and thus would have consumed the
available oxygen more quickly. This aspect cannot be ignored.
Third, and most importantly, the chambers were described by the
witnesses as having a low ceiling, and the people were packed into
the chambers as tightly as possible. This means that there was not
much air per person to start with. As the diesel pumped in exhaust
gas relatively poor in oxygen, high in CO2, soot, NOx (and if, unlike
the fuel in the Holtz-Elliot paper, the Nazis used high-sulphur
diesel fuel, there would also be sulphur dioxide, another toxin), the
people would both take in the toxins and use up the available air
(and load the chamber with even more carbon dioxide, causing more
rapid breathing, a vicious cycle).
This can be done without any tampering with the engine. However, by
adjusting the fuel flow, or partially blocking the air intake, an
even less oxygenated exhaust can be produced. (Again, it is not
certain that this was done, but it was entirely possible.)
Thus it is possible to generate lethal conditions using diesel
engines, although there is not much margin for error. And indeed,
testimony indicates that sometimes it was discovered that the process
did not produce death in everyone, and bullets to the back of the
head had to be administered from time to time. Rudolf Hoess,
commandant of Auschwitz, testified that on a trip to Chelmno, where
there were gassing vans, sometimes the exhaust buildup was not
sufficient for killing.
What about the argument that this was not efficient? This argument
first of all assumes that the people choosing the diesel engines were
as technically sophisticated as Berg himself. Few people know that
diesels don't produce just as much carbon monoxide as gasoline
engines. If they hooked it up and it worked, that was all that
mattered.
The producer gas vehicles certainly would have worked better, but
there were two problems with them. First, the level of CO was so
high that it was potentially explosive (a point Berg made in one of
his own Usenet articles cited in the appendix, yet failed to see the
significance of). Second, the vehicles had a more important use - as
vehicles. The diesel engine came from a captured Soviet tank. There
were thousands of them littering the countryside, most of them
completely unusable because the Germans didn't have the facilities to
repair them. Thus when the economic considerations are examined, not
just the technical, the use of the diesels makes more sense.
What about the argument that the people would have died of
asphyxiation if just put into an airtight chamber? This argument
trades on the myth that all Nazis were sadistic monsters. They were
killers, yes, but they did _not_ have a policy of causing maximum
suffering. The attempt to use carbon monoxide was in order to have a
relatively humane execution. This was important for the morale of
the SS men, as their experience with mass shooting in occupied Russia
proved.
The use of diesels to run gas chambers was not the best technical
means, but it could (and, as the eyewitnesses testified, did) work.
Eventually, at Auschwitz, a better method was found, and the diesels
were abandoned.
[1] Berg, Friedrich Paul: "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth Within a
Myth," Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 5 No. 1, Spring 1984.
[2] Friedlander, Saul: "Counterfeit Nazi: The Ambiguity of Good"
(Knopf, New York, 1969) pp. 116-120.
[3] Thienes, Clinton and Haley, Thomas: "Clinical Toxicology,"
(Lea & Febiger, Philadelphia, 1972), p. 189.
[4] Holtz, John and Elliot, M. A.: "The Significance of Diesel-
Exhaust-Gas-Analysis," Transactions of the American Society of
Mechanical Engineers, Vol. 63, Feb. 1941, pp. 97-105.
APPENDIX
Below is the relevant section of Berg's own paper in the Journal of
Historical Review, plus extracts from one of his Usenet articles,
interspersed with comments.
Oxygen in Diesel Exhaust
If the Jews were not murdered with carbon monoxide from Diesel
exhaust, could they have died instead from the effects of reduced
oxygen in Diesel exhaust? Such a theory would at least be
consistent with the claim that the corpses were "blue."
[Berg cites SS hygienist Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel as one witness.
However, he did not include in his paper Pfannenstiel's explicit
diagnosis of asphyxiation. While Berg pretends to explore this
possibility, he rushes through it while ignoring significant
factors - most notably Pfannenstiel's testimony - which point
strongly to a conclusion of death by asphyxiation. Omission of
both Pfannenstiel's explicit diagnosis and these other factors is
deceptive.]
A bluish coloring to certain parts of a corpse is indeed a symptom
of death from lack of oxygen. This theory, however, does not hold
up very well because of the fact that Diesels always operate with
excess air.
[That is how they are _normally_ operated, if one wishes to
run them to run a truck or a pump. This says nothing about how
they could be operated if one wishes to kill people.]
[Graph captioned, "Figure 6: Exhaust gas constituents of internal
combustion engines.^22 The heavy vertical line at a fuel:air ratio
of 0.055 has been added by the author."
[This graph can be retrieved from Ken McVay's archives as a GIF.]
Normal air contains 21% oxygen. In Figure 6 we see that the
oxygen concentration corresponding to idle in the exhaust of any
Diesel (divided or undivided chamber), shown near the top of the
chart at a fuel/air ratio of 0.01, is 18%, which is just a few per
cent less than one finds in normal air. At full load, which
corresponds to a fuel/air ratio of 0.055, the oxygen concentration
in the exhaust of any Diesel is 4%.
[The graph only covers two diesels, not "any Diesel." And, as
will be seen below, the graph was generated from diesels "in
proper mechanical condition." Although he argues elsewhere
that these are the worst numbers one finds in the Society of
Automotive Engineers transactions, it should be noted that's
the worst one finds for any _American_ diesel. The Nazis used
Soviet diesels. (Technologies can converge within one nation
and diverge between nations, as people are trained in the same
schools.) And he should go to the primary source - the raw
numbers which generate the graph. As will be shown below, the
numbers tell a very different story.]
Probably the best discussion of the effects of reduced oxygen
levels or asphyxia is provided by Henderson and Haggard:
SECOND STAGE. When the oxygen is diminished to values between
14 and 10 per cent the higher values of the brain are affected.
Consciousness continues, but judgement becomes faulty. Severe
injuries, such as burns, bruises and even broken bones, may
cause no pain. Emotions, particularly ill temper and
pugnacity, and less often hilarity, or an alteration of moods,
are aroused with abnormal readiness....
THIRD STAGE. When the oxygen is diminished to values between
10 and 6 per cent, nausea and vomiting may appear. The subject
loses the ability to perform any vigorous muscular movements,
or even to move at all. Bewilderment and loss of consciousness
follow, either with fainting or a rigid, glassy-eyed coma. If
revived, the subject may have no recollection of this state, or
an entirely erroneous belief as to what has happened. Up to
this stage, or even in it, he may be wholly unaware that
anything is wrong....
FOURTH STAGE. When the oxygen is diminished below 6 per cent,
respiration consists of gasps separated by apneas of increasing
duration. Convulsive movements may occur. Then the breathing
stops, but the heart may continue to beat for a few minutes and
then develop ventricular fibrillation, or stand still in
extreme dilation.^23
According to Haldane and Priestley, "air containing less than
9.5 per cent of oxygen would ordinarily cause disablement within
half an hour."^24 Disablement is still not death.
[This makes it sound as if there's no difference between 9.5%
and 0%. With 0% oxygen, death - not disablement - comes in a
few minutes. Berg is trying to confuse matters here.]
It is clear that there is no magic number below which death
would occur, or above which life would continue. However, for any
gas chamber relying upon reduced oxygen as the killing method, one
would have to reduce the oxygen to below 9.5%--perhaps even below
6%.
[There is no magic number, true, but Berg's argument is again
misleading. What is really clear is that the lower the oxygen
goes, the faster death comes. And O2 below 6% is feasible within
Berg's constraints. See below.]
From Figure 6 we see that to reduce the oxygen concentration
in the exhaust to just 9%, any Diesel would have to operate at a
fuel/air ratio of about 0.040, which corresponds to about 3/4 of
full load. To reduce the oxygen concentration to as low as 6%,
which would be the fourth stage according to Henderson and Haggard
and would almost certainly be the condition needed to kill "all"
members of any intended group of victims, any Diesel would have to
operate at a fuel/air ratio of about 0.048, which is close to full
load. In other words, any Diesel gas chamber relying on the
reduction of oxygen as a killing method would have to operate at
more than 3/4 of full load, but probably closer to full load.
[This depends on exactly how Berg is defining "full load".
See below.]
From the above it should be obvious that over most of their
operating ranges, Diesels discharge sufficient oxygen so that one
can literally inhale pure Diesel exhaust and survive on the oxygen
in the exhaust. From idle to at least 3/4 of full load, Diesel
exhaust contains sufficient oxygen to sustain human life for at
least half an hour.
[notes]
22. Edward F. Obert, _Internal Combustion Engines and Air
Pollution_ (New York and London: Intext Educational Publishers,
1973), p. 361.
23. Y. Henderson & H.W. Haggard, _Noxious Gases_ (New York:
Reinhold Publishing, 1943), pp. 144-45.
24. J.S. Haldane & J.G. Priestly, _Respiration_ (New Haven: Yale
University Press, 1935), pp. 223-24.
Berg pays lip service to the idea of dealing with the possibility
of looking at combined effects:
An analysis of the combined effects of carbon monoxide,
carbon dioxide and reduced oxygen might be possible on the
basis of the research of Haldane and Henderson, but it would
not give any significantly different results than what has
already been concluded on the basis of reduced oxygen acting
alone. The reason is that the carbon monoxide and carbon
dioxide levels are just too low to make any difference.
First, one can never make blithe assumptions about the combined
effects of substances. If two different chemicals both have a lethal
dose of one gram, that does _not_ necessarily mean that half a gram of
each will be equally lethal. The two substances may work together such
that a quarter gram of each is lethal - or one may be an antidote for
the other! And indeed, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are
synergistic in effect.
Second, there are additional effects that Berg did not look at.
The eyewitness reports (as well as some reports, dismissed as forgeries
by the Holocaust deniers) point out the fact that people were packed as
tightly in the chambers as possible. Thus once the chambers were
sealed, the people's own consumption of oxygen would be a significant
factor. Berg also completely failed to look at other toxic effects,
such as nitrogen oxides, soot, and heat.
The most significant is nitrogen oxides. According to p. 189 of
"Clinical Toxicology" by Clinton Thienes and Thomas Haley, NO2 or
N2O4 concentrations of 250-500 ppm are "rapidly fatal." And the
Holtz-Elliot paper shows NOx concentrations as high as 690 ppm -
interestingly, at a fuel-air ratio of less than 0.03 and an engine
speed of 600 RPM. Unfortunately, the paper does not break down the
NOx emissions by specific compound.
In his Usenet article, Berg continues:
In the Holtz paper I cited from 1960, there are two extremely
relevant sections which your challenge has prodded me to notice.
I urge you to read them also. The first section is: 'Engine
tests' on pages 68 and 69.
Let's turn to that other reference that has given Mr. Berg a bit
of confusion, the paper by Holtz and Elliot in the 1941 Transactions
of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, Vol. 63, Feb. 1941,
pp. 97-105. On page 98, we find exactly the same graph referred to
in Berg's note 22. But on page 99, we find some very interesting
numbers - some of the raw data used to generate the graph.
Engines A and B in the paper are four-cylinder four-stroke
engines. Engine B is rated at a maximum 70 brake horsepower; it has a
displacement of 226 cubic inches and maximum RPM of 2600.
Remember these crucial words from Berg's paper: "At full load,
which corresponds to a fuel/air ratio of 0.055, the oxygen
concentration in the exhaust of any Diesel is 4%." It has already
been noted he is on very shaky ground in claiming this was true for
"any" diesel, when it's clear that this graph was generated from these
two _specific_ engines. But is he right about the rest?
Experiment B-12 ran the engine at 1400 RPM at a fuel/air ratio of
0.056 (one thousandth more than Berg's 0.55, but one hopes he won't
argue that the extra thousandth makes a difference). Oxygen was
3.44%. The difference between 3.44 and 4 doesn't look like much, but
in percentage terms, it's a difference of 14%.
Is he right about full load? Well, it depends on what he means
by "full load." If he is talking about maximum rated torque at the
given RPM, yes. But if he's talking about full power output, no.
Experiment B-12 was run with a net output of 37.8 HP.
Is he right about "any diesel?" Turn to the discusson by H. E.
Degler, University of Texas professor of mechanical engineering, on
p. 104:
"Engine manufacturers and operators have been increasing
jacket-water temperatures in recent years, some as high as 212 F at
atmospheric pressure, thus taking advantage of the latent-heat
cooling effect in addition to the sensible-heat removal. These
higher temperatures will reduce the "chilling effect of direct
oxidation reactions," as mentioned by the authors, and assure
^^^^^^
lower CO, decrease aldehydes, and reduce the free carbon in the
^^^^^^^^
engine exhaust.
So it seems there are some other considerations which affect exhaust
gas composition. Without more information on exactly what kind of
engine was used, there's no way of knowing if Soviet diesels used
those higher water temperatures. Yet from two engines Berg thinks he
knows what's true for "any diesel."
Let's look at some text of the Holtz-Elliot paper on p. 99:
Although Fig. 2 [the same graph Berg uses as Fig. 6 of his own
paper] presents data on exhaust-gas composition at fuel-
air ratios on the rich side, such conditions of operation are not
normal and were obtained in these tests by changing the adjustment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of the stop limiting the travel of the rack on the fuel pump of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
engine B. After this change the fuel injected at full throttle was
increased by approximately 60 per cent.
Now, these are out of normal range. But the technique used was not
overloading. It was adjustment of the fuel system. And they said
nothing about restricting the air intake as was done in experiments
performed by Pattle et al. One must wonder what would happen if they
tried doing _both_?
[Berg:]
In 1984 I wrote the following in my article on page 38:
"For all their efforts they would have had an average
concentration of less than 0.4% carbon monoxide and more than 4%
oxygen."
[Scott Mullins:]
I'm sorry, but this is simply false. The Elliot-Davis paper that
you cite _clearly_ demonstrates that diesel engines can generate
CO concentrations of approximately 1.0% and O2 concentrations less
than 2.0% at fuel/air ratios _less_than_stoichiometric_. For proof
please see figure 4 on page 333 of the Elliot-Davis paper.
[Note: "stoichiometric" means the ratio at which there is just
enough oxygen to burn all the fuel completely. That ratio is
approximately 0.068 for the Holtz-Elliot paper. It is also
referred to as the "chemically correct ratio."]
[Berg:]
What I wrote is not false at all. Figure 4 shows some data taken
beyond the normal operating range of the engine. From the upper
limit of the normal operating range to stoichiometric, there is
still quite a stretch. Read Elliott and Davis again. You can only
get to stoichiometric by operating at GREATER than FULL LOAD.
Read pages 334 and 335.
Our old friend, Fig. 6 from Berg's paper, shows up in this reference
(Elliot-Davis) as well (they call it Fig. 2). But Elliot-Davis doesn't
have the raw data found in the older Holtz-Elliot paper.
Let's look at that raw data, specifically experiment B-70 at the top
of p. 99 in the Holtz-Elliot paper. The fuel/air ratio is 0.07 (greater
than the chemically correct ratio). The speed is 1400 RPM. What is the
load? Is it indeed "GREATER than FULL LOAD?"
Well, again it depends on what Berg means by this. The power
output is only 40.20HP (70 maximum).
What is the exhaust composition? CO 0.7% - very bad. CO2 13.8%
(Getting worse - CO and CO2 are synergistic, something Berg completely
failed to mention in his paper.)
What is the oxygen content? Oxygen content is down to 0.8%.
Forget the carbon monoxide. An atmosphere with less than 1% oxygen
kills all by itself.
Mr. Berg has volunteered to breathe diesel exhaust to show how
safe it is. One wonders if he would still willing to do that if the
exhaust composition were set to less than one percent oxygen and he
were stuck in a fairly small chamber so he starts using up the
existing oxygen relatively quickly. (This was the situation at
Treblinka, where people were crammed like sardines into the
chambers).
For all of Berg's claims of how difficult it is to obtain such
fuel-air ratios, Holtz and Elliot seemed to have no trouble doing it.
Berg cannot get around that fact.
[Berg:]
If you operate above the Normal Operating Range of fuel/air
ratios, you produce excessive quantities of smoke rapidly. That is
why I referred to the discussion by E.W. Landen at the end of the
Elliott and Davis paper and why I included his diagram as well.
At fuel/air ratios beyond about 0.055, the smoke "solid" line
becomes almost vertical and that means, according to Landen on
page 346: "short engine life."
Berg still can't understand that there were literally thousands
of surplus Soviet engines available. Wear and damage were not a
source of worry. This engine's dead? Oh well, hook up the next one
and start killing Jews again.
And HOW short? Ten minutes? A week? A month? A year? Berg
doesn't say. Why not?
But is he even right in the first place about the amount of
smoke? Again, let's turn to Holtz and Elliot, page 101:
TABLE 4 FREE CARBON IN THE EXHAUST GASES FROM ENGINE B
Free carbon in dry exhaust gases
Fuel-air ratio Lb per lb Lb per 1000
lb per lb of fuel cu ft
0.01 0.060 0.047
0.02 0.034 0.053
0.03 0.019 0.046
0.04 0.021 0.068
0.05 0.029 0.117
0.06 0.044 0.213
0.07 0.066 0.361
0.08 0.091 0.576
Let's look at that graph on solid components of smoke Berg talks
about. At a fuel/air ratio of 0.05, the graph shows 4 grams
exhausted solid material per hour. At about 0.57, the graph shows
above 16 grams - more than a factor of four.
Is that true? Look at the numbers above. At 0.05, the middle
column shows 0.029. At 0.06 fuel-air ratio, the middle column shows
0.044. That's only 1.5 times the 0.05 output, not four times! Even at
0.07, the output is only 2.3 times as much as the 0.05 output.
So something appears to be wrong with the graph Berg uses.
Either it was done wrong, or done from different engines than in the
Holtz-Elliot paper.
Scott Mullins pointed out why it was done wrong. The graph Berg
cites had its units in grams per hour - that is, the total output by
weight. But Berg has cackled gleefully about how it's the percentage
of CO in exhaust that determines lethality, not total volume. (An
oversimplification, by the way - there are other factors such as
pressure.) Thus he should know very well that it is the percentage
of soot in the exhaust which gives short engine life, not the gross
amount - especially since his _own reference_ makes this point.
Berg is _definitely_ distorting Landen by quoting out of context
- another technique of Holocaust denial. Let's turn to page 346 of
the Elliot-Davis paper, and see the _entire_ context of the words
"short engine life."
"[T]he quantities of material sticking in an engine in the form of
deposits amounts to possibly 0.0001% or 0.01% of the fuel burned.
The 0.0001% figure corresponds to an engine with a normal life while
the 0.01% figure means short engine life due to heavy deposits."
Now, this is the percentage _sticking_ in the engine, not the percent
exhausted, and again it is a percentage of fuel burned, not total
volume per hour. So Berg's graph is another red herring. Note that
even if the amount of soot as a percentage of fuel burned were
_constant_, when measured in grams per hour, doubling the fuel/air
ratio will double the _weight_ of output.
There are other solid components besides carbon, but on page 100
of the Holtz-Elliot paper it is shown that even at a high fuel/air
ratio, carbon makes up 99.1% of the soot.
[Berg:]
There is some technical complexity to this subject matter,
True. Berg hopes people will be dazzled by his science and take his
word for everything he says, not checking up on him thinking it's too
complicated to understand.
[Berg:]
Exterminationists who have enormous resources available to them
have been too lazy--to put it as mildly as one imagine.
Here is the work. Berg was right about one thing - everyone just
assumed that since it was an engine, it must have been carbon
monoxide. It's one of those things that "everone knows." The
problem was, the Nazi killers disposed of the evidence.
The courts and the historians believed the witnesses that gassing
happened. They were lawyers and historians, not diesel engineers.
No, things weren't up to the standard of forensics used in modern
American courts. But that doesn't prove that the gassing didn't
happen. All it proves is that the exact cause of death may have
been a little different than what people thought.
[Berg:]
Before you accuse someone of murder, make sure you have a murder
weapon that makes sense.
Sophistry. Murder doesn't make sense period. But it happened.
It happened at Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec. It happened at
Auschwitz. It happened to the Armenians. It happened to millions of
kulaks starved to death during Stalin's forced collectivizations. It
happened in Cambodia, in Rwanda.
The Nazis tried diesels because they were available. They
probably never realized how stupid they were. It made sense to the
people who did it. It worked. That's all they needed or cared to
know. They were killers, not diesel engineers.
[Berg:]
Surely, you must agree that to make a lethal Diesel gas chamber, a
lot more is involved than simply connecting the exhaust pipe of a
Diesel-driven tank or truck to a closed room. Otherwise, just
headaches.
Surely you must agree that to make a lethal Diesel gas chamber, a
lot more is involved than simply turning an adjustment screw
somewhere on the Diesel engine. Otherwise, just headaches.
Or asphyxiation, or death by pulmonary edema due to NOx
poisoning, or some combination of toxic effects. Berg should have
read the Holtz and Elliot paper, and should have done more research
on toxicology as well. To make a scientific case, a lot more is
involved than simply reading one graph based on two engines and
handwaving through the toxicology.
[Berg:]
Surely, you must also agree that to make a lethal Diesel gas
chamber, a lot more is involved than simply restricting the air
intake to the engine. Otherwise, a barely noticeable effect. (See
my tabulation from Henderson and Haggard.)
Holtz and Elliot show it's quite possible. Pfannenstiel noticed
an effect. He called it asphyxiation. Gerstein noticed an effect.
He called it death. The Jews - well, they noticed too, but that was
the last thing they ever noticed.
[Berg:]
The fact, which you may indeed never concede (and that is entirely
up to you), is that any Diesel gaschamber method is absurd.
Mass murder is absurd by any method. But it happens. After
reading Holtz and Elliot, and looking more deeply into the toxicology,
it becomes clear that it may not be the best method available, but it
is feasible.
[Berg:]
Can anyone really believe the Germans would have used Diesel
exhaust as a source of CO, when they had 18% to 35% CO? These
were essentially the same people who built the first jet and
rocket-propelled fighter airplanes, the first ballistic missiles,
who also invented the gasoline engine, Diesel engine and even the
automobile.
Yes, but they weren't the ones building the gas chambers. Berg is
dishonestly trying to slip past the idea that every German knew as much
as every other German about all these technical issues. The rocket
scientists were off at Peenemunde building, well, rockets. What did
Wirth and Globocnik do before the war? Were they diesel engineers?
Berg's argument only carries weight if the people who were trying
to use diesels _knew_ that they were a bad choice.
In fact, Berg argues out of both sides of his mouth. On the one
hand, he tells us how terribly, terribly complicated it is to change
the composition of the exhaust gas of a diesel, proving the murderers
couldn't possibly have done it. On the other hand, he tells us how
brilliant German scientists and engineers were, proving - they
couldn't possibly have done it!?
Well, no. Not quite. Berg argues they _wouldn't_ have done it,
because there were better methods. His reason tells him that his way
is the best, and the Nazis would have done things only in the best
way, so any other story is a "dirty Jewish hoax." However, as the
eminent revisionist historian Greg Raven, associate editor of the
Journal for Historical Review (which Berg tells people to buy all the
time) says:
"It is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your 'reason' demands it."
With Berg's "better method" (the producer gas-powered vehicles
which put out 18% to 35% CO), not only was there so high a
concentration of CO that explosion was a danger (as he himself
admitted with no recognition of its significance in an unquoted part
of his Usenet article), but also that the vehicles in question had
an alternative use, as vehicles. The diesel engines from captured
Soviet tanks had no productive use - while the German army did use
some captured tanks, they were hardly able even to keep up with the
repair demand for their own tanks, and thousands of Soviet tanks sat
in place for the duration of the war. Furthermore, diesel fuel is
cheaper to make than gasoline - it's not so highly refined. So when
Berg argues that there were better methods, he's only talking from a
technical standpoint. When looked at from the viewpoint of an
economist, suddenly it makes a _lot_ more sense.
*******************************
So for all his intellectual arrogance, Berg does not analyze
things completely - he doesn't look at _all_ aspects of the question.
That's the scientific end and analytical end. But there's
another, more important aspect. There were witnesses. Berg ignores
the testimonies of Gerstein, of Pfannenstiel, of Suchomel, of Fuchs.
He says they must be liars or lunatics or victims of torture or
coercion.
Suchomel appeared on camera for Lanzmann's documentary "Shoah"
and didn't deny anything. He could have simply refused to appear.
Did the filmmaker torture him?
Gerstein tried to get the story out _during the war_. He told
the Swedish that Jews were being killed at Belzec, Sobibor, and
Treblinka. He told trusted friends that killing was going on. So
how did the Soviets torture him into doing that?
Pfannenstiel testified many times, and as Berg's own paper notes,
his testimony always supported the Gerstein statement. Berg actually
oversimplified - Pfannenstiel contradicted Gerstein on some details,
but not about gassing.
Because Berg has a scientific "theory" that "proves" that diesel
gas chambers are "stupid," all eyewitness testimony is dismissed.
Well, someone once "proved" that bumblebees cannot possibly fly.
Do you see bumblebees walking everywhere?
When facts contradict his theory, Berg revises the facts. He is
no honest scientist.
Has this paper proved that gassing did occur at Treblinka with
diesel engines? No. It has only proved that contrary to Berg's
claims, there is sufficient reason to believe that it is technically
possible. To try to claim any more would be to engage in the
same violation of scientific principles that Berg commits.
Referenced works:
Berg, Friedrich Paul: "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth Within a Myth,"
Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 5 No. 1.
-- Usenet alt.revisionism article <2vt3du$t0b@mary.iia.org>, "Diesel
A, B, C's and Scott Mullins," 12 July 1994.
Elliot, Martin and Davis, Rogers: "Composition of Diesel Exhaust
Gas," SAE Quarterly Transactions, July 1950.
Elliot, Martin and Holtz, John: "The Significance of Diesel-Exhaust-Gas
Analysis," Transactions of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers,
Vol. 63, Feb. 1941.
Friedlander, Saul: "Counterfeit Nazi: The Ambiguity of Good"
(Knopf, New York, 1969).
Pattle et al, "The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four
Different Running Conditions," British Journal of Industrial
Medicine, Vol. 14, 1957.
Thienes, Clinton and Haley, Thomas: "Clinical Toxicology," (Lea &
Febiger, Philadelphia, 1972).
>But then are you not the person who discovered a kind of fat with more
>than 900 calories per gram?
I am certainly not the person who discovered this fact. It has been
known for a long time. Why do you not know about it?
Check the nutrition labels in the lunch meat section. Check the
bottle of olive oil a few aisles over. You will find that every kind of
fat has approximately 9 calories per gram, rounded up to the nearest
calorie.
But next you should check the dictionary definition of "calorie."
There are two kinds: the small calorie, also known as a gram calorie, and
the large calorie, equal to 1,000 gram calories (i.e., 1 kilocalorie). The
kind of calorie used on a nutrition label is a large calorie, a
kilocalorie. Do not take my word for it, please. Check your Webster's.
I'll wait.
I have always tried to make this point when discussing the topic so
that it is clear that I am talking about gram calories. If you have not
been playing some sort of deceptive game here, and have not been
illiterately misreading my words, then you have been ignorant of a
scientific fact that even I knew.
I did the math and found that from the nutrition label I looked at,
which gives grams of fat in a serving and calories derived from fat, that
one gram of fat contains about 8.6 dietary calories which is to say 8.6
kcal which is to say 8,600 gram calories (small calories). Yes, Virginia,
8,600 gram calories is more than 900 gram calories, but I cannot claim
credit for this amazing discovery.
I admit to having trusted the nutrition labels without performing an
experiment in a calorimeter myself. If that makes me a holohugger for
trusting dubious Soviet nutrition sources so be it. But if you have
evidence that this is wrong you should certainly alert the Food and Drug
Administration.
Now do you want to have a serious discussion about energy required for
cremation or are you going to play games?
I am not emailing them, but I do hope that Ehrlich606 and DavidThomas
are taking notes here.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48158 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: 3 Jul 1996 19:14:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Posted and emailed.
In article <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, while Mr. Giwer is waiting for Alec to get unbusy, perhaps he would
>> like to occupy himself with a computation of the number of calories required
>> to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse. Or perhaps he will point
>
>Inconsequential. You challenge Matt on something that he will ignore.
What? But we've been hearing so much about how Matt wants to get the
discussion back on track - and I'm not talking about Matt's own comments.
I'm talking about people like DavidThomas and Ehrlich606 who have defended
Mr. Giwer. Are you trying to tell me these fine upstanding gentlemen are
wrong?
>I wonder why this is taking so long to settle when anybody who barbecues
>reularly can tell you that even lean meat that's been marinaded will
>produce enough fat and self-heating to cook itself into a complete char.
>That meat is far leaner than even a starved human (humans die when their
>fat level drops that low).
Oh, geez. You're talking _experiments_. Don't you know that when
theory conflicts with observation, the observations must be revised to fit
the theory? That's (revisionist) SCIENCE!!!!!
>I often did batch barbecuing by bringing the lava rock (gas BBQ) to
>heat, starting on the 1st batch and continuing thru several batches,
>turning down the flames to minimal halfway thru the first batch. The fat
>cooked the rest and I had to control the amount of heat by using a
>squirt bottle with water.
>
>Then we simply froze the extra and had ready-to-heat meat beautifully
>BBQ'd.
>
>Empirical and easy-to-verify experimental evidence.
We only have your unsupported assertion. I demand physical evidence.
Email me some of that meat. I will personally verify your claim of how
beautifully BBQ'd it is. Better send some of the sauce as well.
Experiments must be reproducible, AS YOU KNOW.
>BTW - the water chimera is just that. The water in our tissues is
>measured by including the bound Hydrogen monoxide in the fat, which
>contains a large component of the water in our tissue.
SHHHHH! No help from the studio audience!
Yes, he wanted to factor the water out and claim that only ~20% of a
fat cell counted as burnable fat, so that he could reduce the energy
released by burning a corpse. And our superscientist even seems confused
about the difference between a gram calorie and a dietary calorie (kcal).
But he said he could do the computations, so I have invited him to do
just that. He said I deleted them, yet nobody seems to be able to find
them. Of course, what he doesn't know is ... oh, but it's too soon for
that. All things ripen in their own time.
>> out the many errors in the rebuttal I wrote to Friedrich Berg's work.
>
>Keep it simple with Matt. It makes bluffing harder for him.
Well, I just keep repeating it. The way he keeps ignoring it should
clue most people in to the fact that he's bluffing. I am not really that
interested in nuking Matt, you see. He makes excellent bait. Until some
revisionist shows up to have that serious discussion, free of lies and
intellectual dishonesty, what is there to do here but fish?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48161 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:41:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4rbmcr$qa1@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4rcdhb$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ree8s$611@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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In article <4ree8s$611@bell.maths.tcd.ie>,
Derek Bell wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>> How's about calling Ken by his proper name?
>> What do you think his name is?
>
> I'd imagine ``McVay'', as it is his surname. (I assume you meant his
>surname and yes, I have seen _Back to the Future_, so I do know the reference
>you made.)
No, Gordon is the first name of the person Mr. Giwer calls McFly.
When he isn't calling him Marduk, that is. Mr. Giwer sometimes has
difficulties telling people apart and keeping them straight. It's a damn
good thing Mr. Giwer wasn't here when revisionist Tim McCarthy was
posting.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48176 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:36:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
> Just stop it all and get this back to a discussion of revisionism
>without all the crap you exterminationists have introduced over the
>years. This is not your conference. It is for revisionist discussion.
>
>
> You do not have to leave. You can contribute by critiquing the
>revisionist proposals. You folks will be doing a service in that
>regard.
>
> The choice is yours. When it all stops there will be nothing for me
>to respond to. Therefore it stops. It is all that simple.
When revisionists stop doctoring evidence and using other
intellectually dishonest methods, I cannot promise that all the
namecalling will stop, but I can guarantee that it will drop dramatically.
> And you better get that word to everyone here and to all the
>newcomers as quickly as possible.
>
> I accept no excuses.
If you can get the word to the revisionists about intellectual honesty
you will be doing a great service to revisionism. This is not the first
time I have made this point. For every example you can cite of where some
orthodox historian has omitted something you may think relevant and
contrary to his or her thesis, I am sure I can come up with half a dozen
examples from revisionists, and far more blatant. One of them had some of
your text on his website last time I looked - see if Greg Raven is willing
to discuss with you the way he paraphrased the comments of Pressac about
the testimony of SS Pvt. Bo"ck.
What kind of debunking is it that needs to doctor evidence?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Jul 4 07:43:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48184 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, again
Date: 4 Jul 1996 07:49:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>> >Matt Giwer has consistently repeated the lie that Nizkor censors things.
>> >What things we censor, he has been pretty vague about.
>
>Case in point is Giwer's catch-me-if-you-can reply:
>
>> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>> mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>> Nizkor. Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>> and says he found no such mention. Therefore the material is censored.
>>
>> Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>> this? All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>> time you folks are unable to find those mentions.
>
>Mr. Giwer, please post the names and email address of, say, three of
>these "at least a dozen people." I will contact them and have them
>explain to me where they think they saw these mentions of Hoess' trials.
>I think that no one knows the layout of Nizkor better than Ken McVay and
>myself; if I cannot clear this up, I will ask Mr. McVay and we will
>figure out what is going on.
>
>My prediction of what is going on: Giwer is flat-out lying, as he has
>done many times in the past
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
>
>and as he will continue to do in the future. Giwer is claiming that
>Nizkor "censors" by editing its own files (!)
No, he is trying to insinuate it.
He claims the material is censored, but I do not remember seeing a
direct claim that you or Ken is editing the files, only an insinuation
that you might delete inconvenient files.
Remember his claim that saving a post without the entire thread makes
it dishonestly out of context and lacking in integrity. I think he is
simply claiming that if you don't have the entire book on Nizkor it is
censored.
He's trolling. Remember that always. His purpose is not to
communicate, but to deceive. He gets his jollies using words in deceptive
ways and making people bite. However, as Alec noted, he gets sloppy.
Apparently he was better in the past.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Jul 4 17:22:21 PDT 1996
Article: 48303 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, for the last time
Date: 4 Jul 1996 17:28:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 175
Message-ID: <4rhd1u$esp@access1.digex.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48303 alt.censorship:87510 alt.usenet.kooks:26405
Oh, hell with it, let's end the game.
In article <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>>>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>>>Nizkor. Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>>>and says he found no such mention. Therefore the material is censored.
Now I will point out the fact that Matt lied here.
I never said that I found no _mention_. My precise words (and my
words are almost always _precise_) were:
Date: 1996/06/12
Not even Altavista can find what does not exist. But you know that.
I searched for all files mentioning "Rudenko" to look for verification of
the story that Rudenko lost the first case against Hoess, which you said
you found on Nizkor. No such file.
Date: 1996/06/20
However, I have an account on Nizkor, and I _can_ search the files by
content. When Giwer claimed that there was a file on Nizkor saying that
Rudenko lost one case against Hoess for lack of evidence, I did a
case-insensitive search on "Ruden" and "enko" (to catch any line breaks in
the middle of the word). No file which turned up in that search matched
Giwer's description of what he had read.
Please keep the precise words I used in mind. They are important,
because (as Mr. Giwer has told us) words have meanings.
>> That is a very bizarre definition of censored. Nizkor does not contain
>>all material related to the Holocaust and makes no claim that it does. There
>>are financial, logistical and legal problems with doing that.
>>Material cannot be put on Nizkor until someone has read it.
>
>> Except in the psychological definition, censorship carries the
>>connotation of a conscious intent to conceal information. And even on the
>>psychological definition, there has to be some opportunity for awareness
>>before the censorship can truly be said to exist.
>
>> Hilberg is unfamiliar with many books about the Holocaust just as I am
>>confident that Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with books about physics - _nobody_
>>has the time to read everything that is published on a topic. Ken McVay is
>>certainly no exception, nor am I.
>
>> If a library is unaware of a book, it is not censoring the book by not
>>carrying it. If it would like to buy it but ran out of funds before it could
>>be purchased, that is not censorship either by any reasonable use of the
>>word.
>
>> Why is Altavista unable to find the information on a revisionist site?
>>Would Mr. Giwer agree that Zundel's site and Bradley Smith's site and Greg
>>Raven's site are also censored, then? One would certainly think they would
>>play the information up for all it's worth - yet they don't seem to have it
>>either, not if "Rudenko" should yield a match.
>
>
>>> Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>>>this? All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>>>time you folks are unable to find those mentions.
>
>>This is what Mr. Giwer wrote originally:
>
>>
>
>> You really should search off of the "guess the filename"
>>possibilities to discover that General Rudenko lost the case
>>against the infamous Rudolph Hoess on charges of gassing for lack
>>of evidence of gassing from the people who were there at the
>>time.
>>
>> You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
>>Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
>>investigator of war crimes.
>
>>
>
>>(Source:
>> http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1879190&server=dnserver.dbapr)
>>
>> The original wording of the claim certainly conveyed the impression he
>>had read the original information on Nizkor.
>
> That is your assumption.
>
> The following is a riddle.
>
> I did not originally read it there but I know it is there. How do I
>know?
Because it is in your own reposts of Al Gentile's articles, of course,
and it was archived. I knew that before I wrote my previous article.
But I know something else you don't know.
You screwed up the troll, Matt. Twice. You said the supporting
_evidence_ was on Nizkor. First, by your own definition, what you and Al
Gentile say is not "evidence." In fact, because it is unsworn, it is not
even evidence in the legal sense. So either you lied or you now accept
that testimony is evidence after all.
The second and worse screwup is that you said that the evidence was in
the _eyewitness testimony_ by a war crimes investigator. Read Al
Gentile's statement again, carefully. I'll wait.
Did you catch where you blew it? Nowhere did Gentile say he witnessed
this trial by Rudenko. Therefore not even unsworn eyewitness testimony to
this first Hoess trial exists on Nizkor. Nothing was censored, but the
_evidence_ you claim should be there is not there. At best there is some
hearsay - but you know that is not the same thing. (And notice that
Gentile went on to make the false statement that Hoess never wrote
anything.)
You lied, Matt. Twice - once on the evidence being in the eyewitness
testimony of a war crimes investigator, and once on the censorship. It's
that simple. Your alleged dozen people can't know what you claim is true,
because it isn't true. You trolled, but you screwed up.
You lied a third time when you said I found no _mention_. I did not
say that. I very precisely said the first time that I looked for
_verification_. No such file. Of course I found the _story_. But
Gentile's story, which did not claim to be eyewitness testimony and gave
no references, cannot verify itself. You know that.
The second time I very precisely said that it did not match your
_description_, which was:
>> You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
>>Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
>>investigator of war crimes.
Again, I found the Gentile story. But it was not eyewitness testimony
to the "first" Hoess trial, nor a reference to proper documentation, and
therefore not _supporting evidence_. Therefore, just as I said, the file
did not match your _description_. If you are claiming the Gentile story
as support for your assertion, then you are supported only by another
assertion - which is to say, no support at all.
But not once did I say that I found no _mention_. When you wrote,
"Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site and says he
found no such mention," you openly lied about what I had said.
Therefore you are a lying troll exactly as many people have been
saying for some time now. This is not an attack. This is a simple
statement of fact. I cannot change that. Only you can change that.
[snip]
As I said last time:
>> It should be noted that Mr. Giwer appears to have misread text on
>>multiple occasions. For that reason alone it would be irresponsible to
>>accept what he says here as true without independent confirmation.
You are an _incompetent_ and _illiterate_ lying troll. I cannot
change that, either. Neither can you, I suspect.
Oh, and since you fell for _my_ troll hook, line, and sinker, you are
also a brainless fish. Sorry, Charlie.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Jul 5 06:39:10 PDT 1996
Article: 48414 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: 4 Jul 1996 18:16:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4rhfre$fvo@access1.digex.net>
References: <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org> <4rc2hm$quk@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31DA7D47.9A@gryn.org>
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In article <31DA7D47.9A@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>>
>>
>> Precisely Mr. Stein's point, I would think. The longer troll
>> ignores the issue, the more obvious it will become - with
>> regard to the public record - that the troll is either
>> unwilling or unable to address issues of substance -
>> particularly issues of substance that he, himself has
>> previously raised and then avoided, when things got too sticky
>> for him.
>
>You play the wrong game here. What Matt is after has little to do with
>the issues raised, even if he doesn't realize it himself.
I am not about to change my objectives just to frustrate Matt. If he
and I are seeking different payoffs, what matters to me is getting my
payoff. My payoff does not consist of frustrating his payoff, though that
may well happen as a byproduct.
>> This will, in the long run, prove damaging to whatever shred
>> of credibility remains to the fellow. It matters not one whit
>> whether or not he answers - it matters only that he was asked.
>> It is the public record which counts, and only the public record.
>> It is, after all, the public who will determine the merit, or
>> lack of same, of any participant here.
>
>You play to the local public - the silent lurkers. Matt drives them away
>and plays to another audience - elsewhere.
I hope they enjoyed the show today.
>You think that his credibility (or loss of same), here, is significant
>to Matt.
>
>That is your error.
I knew it was not long ago. Anyone concerned with their credibility
would have been long gone by now. But as I told you before, Matt makes
good bait for a particular species of fish. He serves a purpose he does
not realize, at least until the pond is fished out. And he did catch two
legitimate errors, one by the Tusas and one by Conot. A minuscule
contribution, given his posting volume, but a contribution nonetheless.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Jul 5 10:03:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48435 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No surprise
Date: 4 Jul 1996 18:42:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4rhhcc$gel@access1.digex.net>
References: <4qdqfe$i3f@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31D31C10.2EAA@unb.ca> <4r995e$87q@access5.digex.net> <31DAC7FC.7504@alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <31DAC7FC.7504@alaska.net>, Henry Ayre wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>> And blank lines have appeared many times in my posts.
>>
>
>
>Indeed, the most profound statements emanating from Michael are to be
>found in the blank lines. Ignore the lines with typing in them, they are
>hopelessly garbled. H. Ayre.
I've had better mindless insults from my Rice Krispies. And that was
_before_ I poured on the milk.
If our professional thinker would like to discuss anything with me he
has only to come to the table with evidence and logic. He has for some
reason never gotten around to doing that.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 5 10:03:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 5 Jul 1996 10:33:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4rj936$me9@access5.digex.net>
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In article ,
Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>Matt Stein has also pointed out that it's a forgery,
^^^^
Stein != Giwer.
My attorneys will be in touch about your clearly tortable libel.
- MIKE Stein
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Jul 5 17:49:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48485 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 19:10:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4rk7dp$fdm@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net> <4JUL199612343251@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dd2517.262925@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31dd2517.262925@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>Message-ID: <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:
>>
>> Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
>> "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
>> Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.
>>
>> OK, here is another example:
>>
>
> Mr.Mittleman's simple inclusion of the identified post deleted.
>
>>In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>
> To which he simply says:
>
>> "Fish in a barrel, Zeyde."
>
> Evidentally Mr.Mittleman has a problem with the empirical
>approach to determining something.
Evidently Mr. Moran doesn't really understand the word "empirical."
In order to determine Mr. Moran's views, we must read what he writes.
That is the empirical approach, and that is what Mr. Mittleman is doing
and inviting everyone else to do.
>What he sees it as is, all he has
>to do is say something, and it is so. Mr.Mittleman has offered nothing
>to show whatever he uses as examples is proof of his accusations. He's
>so curt.
It is an argumentum ad res ipsa loquitur, Tommy.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Jul 5 17:49:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 19:04:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4rk713$fbj@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>Paragraphs 11, 12 and 13.
>
>>The Holocaust: A Guide for Pennsylvania Teachers
>>
>>This guide, written in 1990 at the University of Pennsylvania aims to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>bring to educators basic texts on the Holocaust and related subjects
>>along with ideas on how to bring them to the understanding of their
>>students. All educators should look into this guide, as should anyone
>>who is interested in getting a basic knowledge in Holocaust studies.
>
> Who do these people think they are getting involved with the
>American education system?
You're right, Tommy! Those foreigners should go back to Pennslyvania
where they belong!
>These are the same people who committ
>themselves to closing down Palestinian schools and universities.
Don't you mean "Philadelphian schools and universities?"
>Their
>only motive is to introduce Zionist propaganda into our education
>systems. And here we have this element being accomodated by this goofy
>Nizkor and it's evident idiotic staff of McVay, McCarthy and Hilary,
>and the phantom directors that finance the site.
Nice to see that Tom Moran doesn't engage in that nasty
holocausterclonism practice of labeling and namecalling.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 5 17:49:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48494 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:42:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4rjd51$phn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rcvl0$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net> <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> "Off topic". Thats the new thing Stein is trying. Green is on to
>>this "off topic" topic also. It so rediculous. Typical. The usual.
>> The facts are Nizkor and all the rest of their amen corner, or
>>vice versa are obsessed with "hate" groups.
>> These persons would like to play a game.
>
> There is clearly no consistency in their position.
No, there is no consistency in your position. If you want to get the
newsgroup back on track as you define the track, I will point out that you
are being inconsistent and hypocritical when you post articles off what
you have declared is the track.
"Hypocrisy is not a nice thing to see." - Matt Giwer
>They feel they can introduce Stormfront yet not let the JDL be
>introduced. This is truly a Jewish thing.
Mr. Giwer feels he can call for the newsgroup to get back on track yet
not stay on track himself. This is truly a trollish thing. Though as I
showed yesterday, Mr. Giwer is a very incompetent troll - he thought he
was showing how much smarter he was than the rest of us with the Rudenko
thing, but he botched his wording so as to make it false, and lied about
my statements, which were true. All he managed to show was what a truly
brainless fish he is.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 6 08:00:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48522 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 5 Jul 1996 12:00:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rje6r$qdm@access5.digex.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48522 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:131
In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>how to stop it all?
If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
lying and stop trolling. That is _my_ description of how to stop it all.
It is that simple.
Especially since you are not even competent at trolling. Words have
meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess. And you misread and lied about my
statements. Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
seriously think it will help.
Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well.
Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
what features. You obviously haven't got it right yet. Were you in the
"slow readers" group as a child? When you get your facts straight, even
as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
subject.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 6 08:00:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:00:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4rjan9$nji@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rg669$p7h@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rg669$p7h@news.ios.com>,
Mary Kravits wrote:
>
> You started two world wars and still you claim to be human. Your people
>are barbaric and should be caged like the animals you are. Because of
>your evil you should be made to serve man as slaves for a thousand
>years,Jews should get first crack.
I think we have enough trolls on this newsgroup already, thank you.
Take a number and we'll call you when it's time for your turn.
Posted and emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 6 08:00:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:26:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4rjc7v$oqo@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rcvl0$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>> mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> From their own website...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>[snip]
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>>> >>are Jewish sources.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>>> >>from their own site. We all know that it what it is.
>>>>
>>>> > Yes. Off-topic. I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>>>> >track?
>
>
> "Off topic". Thats the new thing Stein is trying. Green is on to
>this "off topic" topic also. It so rediculous. Typical. The usual.
Tommy, could you please explain to me how, if I am trying a new thing,
it can also be "typical" and "the usual?" I really, really, really would
like an explanation of that one.
My response was based on what Mr. Giwer claimed his purpose was. I
was pointing out that his post was not consistent with what he said his
purpose was. I was responding to Mr. Giwer, Tommy, not you. Didn't you
complain before about people butting in on your conversations? Don't you
think Mr. Giwer is capable of speaking for himself?
> The facts are Nizkor and all the rest of their amen corner, or
>vice versa are obsessed with "hate" groups.
"Vice versa?"
Nizkor _does_ have a folder for the JDL under the "Organizations"
section, but there's only one thing in it. I do consider them extremists,
and I think they should be tracked more carefully. Thank you for the
suggestion. I will pass it on to Ken McVay.
> These persons would like to play a game.
Quite right, Tommy. But I don't think you know how to play Go.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sat Jul 6 08:00:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:54:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rk6eb$f74@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
> Nizkor also has a link to "N.J. Commission on Holocaust
>Education" which is not available at the moment. We will just have to
>wait for this one. I recall there being some resistance to this
>reported, with one of the resistance movement citing some new figures
>of 5,000,000 Jewish victims being put forth, and a Jew bluster
>demanding that they should leave it at 6,000,000 anyway.
Yes, Tommy, but you also recalled some Jewish group trying to get the
menorah declared a secular symbol. I recall a Tommy bluster about how
we were all going to be sorry when you found your documentation. But
you never did, did you? Instead we found out that what you thought was
a Jewish group was the KKK, and the argument that the menorah could be
secular _lost_.
You also recalled Hilary Ostrov having some article published in some
newspaper. And that recollection was false. So you will excuse me if I
don't trust your memory very much.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, for the last time
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:12:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <4rno1o$g0p@access4.digex.net>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4rhd1u$esp@access1.digex.net> <4rkrqa$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48806 alt.censorship:87860 alt.usenet.kooks:26580
In article <4rkrqa$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>
>> Oh, hell with it, let's end the game.
>
>>In article <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>>>>>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>>>>>Nizkor. Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>>>>>and says he found no such mention. Therefore the material is censored.
>
>> Now I will point out the fact that Matt lied here.
>
>> I never said that I found no _mention_. My precise words (and my
>>words are almost always _precise_) were:
>
>
>>Date: 1996/06/12
>
>> Not even Altavista can find what does not exist. But you know that.
>>I searched for all files mentioning "Rudenko" to look for verification of
>>the story that Rudenko lost the first case against Hoess, which you said
>>you found on Nizkor. No such file.
>
>
>>Date: 1996/06/20
>
>> However, I have an account on Nizkor, and I _can_ search the files by
>>content. When Giwer claimed that there was a file on Nizkor saying that
>>Rudenko lost one case against Hoess for lack of evidence, I did a
>>case-insensitive search on "Ruden" and "enko" (to catch any line breaks in
>>the middle of the word). No file which turned up in that search matched
>>Giwer's description of what he had read.
>
>> Please keep the precise words I used in mind. They are important,
>>because (as Mr. Giwer has told us) words have meanings.
>
> There are several regular participants here who know exactly where those
>reports have to be on Nizkor if Nizkor is not censored. There are
>irregular participants here who know the exact same thing.
>
> How many more riddles do you folks need?
>
> How about this one.
>
> When I first posted on the claim, I said it was there once. The second
>time I posted the claim, I said it was there twice. How do I know?
>
> Think about it.
>
>>> That is your assumption.
>>>
>>> The following is a riddle.
>>>
>>> I did not originally read it there but I know it is there. How do I
>>>know?
>
>> Because it is in your own reposts of Al Gentile's articles, of course,
>>and it was archived. I knew that before I wrote my previous article.
>>But I know something else you don't know.
>
> But it was not found there in a content based search--as you said. So
>where is it really?
I will type this very slowly as obviously our poor Mr. Giwer is a
functional illiterate who did not understand a single word of my previous
post, where I carefully explained how I _never_ said that.
I _never_ said Gentile's words were not found, Matt. I just got done
explaining that you stupidly misread every word I previously wrote.
I always found every _word_ where you thought it should be. First
time, every time.
Maybe I'd better repeat that. I found every _word_, and I _never_
said differently. I quoted my previous statements to show you exactly
what I said. But you didn't pay attention.
I _always_ found Gentile's words; they were never censored.
But. You did not understand the words. Not Gentile's, not mine.
You said the words were "eyewitness testimony." The words are not
eyewitness testimony. I found no _eyewitness testimony_ in the words.
You said the words were "evidence." The words are not evidence. I
found no _evidence_ in the words.
I said I looked for "verification." The words have no verification.
I found no _verification_ for the words.
I found only assertion. Only words. Worthless words.
Now do you think you can summon up your alleged 163 IQ points and
understand the words I have written this time?
It is no wonder poor Mr. Giwer does not understand the evidence about
the holocaust. He could not even understand what I wrote in the previous
post. And what he does understand he forgets in a few days. He often
cannot even remember what he himself wrote a week earlier.
You would think someone with a 163 IQ would not have these problems.
I can certainly understand how, given the clear evidence posted in this
newsgroup of Mr. Giwer's illiteracy and memory loss at age 51, people
might develop suspicions about Mr. Giwer's truthfulness, mental health, or
possible substance abuse. But maybe poor Mr. Giwer just suffers from
dyslexia, attention deficit disorder, or something a simple trip to the
optometrist might cure. I do hope he seeks the help he needs.
But until then, obviously discussing the Holocaust with him is a lost
cause. It is too complicated for someone of his clearly limited abilities
to understand.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:29:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4rnp00$g9b@access4.digex.net>
References: <4raotm$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rhbc7$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4rkrf4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rkrf4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>># There appears to have been no orders against taking
>># the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are
>># excludable as being nonspecific to the gassing issue.
>
>>There were orders against taking photographs in the "Operation
>>Reinhard" camps. There were also orders against taking
>>photographs during the mass shootings by the "Einsatzgruppen".
>
>>Now, the 163-IQ'ed Giwer will claim to a contradiction, because
>>there are actually some such photographs. That's true. At least
>>a few were taken in secrecy or in violation of the order, and
>>at least one SS-man (Max Taubner) stood trial for taking such
>>photographs.
>
> Nice try but It is quite clear that I am talking about your mass
>extermination by gassing facilities within the camps.
What part of "orders against taking photographs in the 'Operation
Reinhard' camps does our 163 IQ type not understand?
He could not even understand and/or remember the text from one
paragraph earlier.
Obviously he is simply not mentally capable of understanding or
following a discussion of these matters.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acronym or paupacy? You decide. (Or: how to beat Giwer)
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:43:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4rnpqc$gg2@access4.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4ra3sm$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rdmlp$ld2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4rhbdb$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rhbdb$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
> If YOU wish to make the NG useless for everyone, go right ahead.
He is not the one posting followups which contain no comment _at all_
directly addressing the previous article. You and you alone are
responsible for what you post. You are talking just like the convict who
said, "I never murdered anyone! The liquor store owner was going for his
gun - I shot him in self-defense!"
If you wish people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
lying and trolling. It is that simple.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:38:39 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4ro0iv$ign@access4.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>Equinox wrote:
[nerve gas question of unclear intent deleted]
> It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing. I
>had no idea what gas was used. I had only heard about gassing.
>
> But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>likely agent.
Mr. Giwer has demonstrably misunderstood the descriptions.
> When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>collapsed.
Mr. Giwer has misread so many things that it is not clear how he can
be capable of forming any valid opinion about any of this. He neither
understands nor remembers what he reads.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:20:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4rnvgp$iee@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net> <4rk6eb$f74@access4.digex.net> <31de6fe9.659100@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <31de6fe9.659100@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> Yes, Tommy, but you also recalled some Jewish group trying to get the
>>menorah declared a secular symbol. I recall a Tommy bluster about how
>>we were all going to be sorry when you found your documentation. But
>>you never did, did you? Instead we found out that what you thought was
>>a Jewish group was the KKK, and the argument that the menorah could be
>>secular _lost_.
>>
>> You also recalled Hilary Ostrov having some article published in some
>>newspaper. And that recollection was false. So you will excuse me if I
>>don't trust your memory very much.
>
> As to how much of your post is true to facts or cited wording, I
>don't know at this time. I do thank you for endorsing my other 100+
>posts by not having to say and always concentrating on these two.
>Thanks - again.
I don't endorse your 100+ other posts. You endorsed my one post were
I said that you were the most stupid person posting here, though. Thanks
- again.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:52:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4rnqcc$glk@access4.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4raqek$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbmos$r62@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>> A possible position. However as you have seen the game played here
>>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.
>>> That is unacceptable.
>
>> The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>>side demolishes your arguments.
>
>The point is that similar methods are used by both sides
False.
>and there is in
>fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.
False.
> What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
>their sources are unimpeachable.
False.
>>> Mothers are not fathers.
>
>> No shit, Sherlock????!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>>posting to me and about me?
>
>> Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>>"simpering bitch". Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?
>
>HRO's posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
>insults. What makes you think she should be immune from response?
It is not a personal attack to call Mr. Giwer a liar. He lies. That
is a statement of fact which can be proved to courtroom standards. I have
offered a wager that I can prove this to a neutral arbiter from the
American Arbitration Association. Mr. Giwer has not responded to this
wager.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:36:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rhbbi$oe4@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>># Anyone want to explain this one?
>
>>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]
>
>>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing?
>>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange"
>>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?
>
> Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
>evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.
Gosh, there is physical evidence of a burned Chicago. Guess it was
firebombed.
[snip]
> There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
There may be bomb craters. There may be evidence of a fire. But
establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)? Or the intentionality
of the fire? What physical evidence do you have for that? None, of
course.
>There is no physical evidence of mass extermination by any means at
>Belsen.
>
>You know the difference. It is simply inconvenient for you to admit to
>the difference.
Please tell us what physical evidence you have that the Dresden fire
was not really caused by Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow, and that the bombing was
just coincidence. None, of course.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 04:41:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4rnt7s$i3j@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article ,
Mark Van Alstine wrote [wrt "co-web mistress"]:
>Quite sure. Despite your protesations of "innocence" _you_ fully intended
>your petty remarks to be insulting. You made your bed, Ehrlich606, now lie
>in it.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Yes, Ehrlich's words _might_ have
been sly innuendo designed to give "plausible deniability." The content
of _other_ posts may increase your suspicion of this. But they also may
be just as innocent as he says. To a neutral observer, seeing only the
post in question, there would be reasonable doubt. There is in my own
mind, even though I should be inclined to bias against Ehrlich based on
his rather astounding defense of Matt Giwer. (He has not responded to my
reply to that defense, and I think he owes a response.)
As you cannot read Ehrlich's mind, I think you ought to keep your
suspicions to yourself on this one and save your efforts for charges you
really can make stick. You do no good and much harm by pressing a dubious
case here.
Posted and emailed to Ehrlich, Mark Van Alstine, and Hilary Ostrov.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul 7 09:53:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48836 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: 7 Jul 1996 07:04:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4ro5j8$j75@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <31de6ffe.679587@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:
>
>>You people do HATE. You hate Jews, Blacks, immigrants and hispanics.
>>
>>What I can't fathom is why the hell you deny it. Hitler never denied that
>>he hated Jews to the core. Hitler believed that all of society's ills lay
>>at the feet of the Jews. Hitler transformed himself from a "weak-kneed
>>cosmopolitan" to an anti-semite.
>>
>>You act like there is something wrong with hating Jews. Are you too
>>ashamed to hate Jews?
>
> No wonder this 'person' uses a goofy alias.
Instead of just giving your snippy little blurtings, why not show
what's wrong with what this person wrote instead of using an argumentum ad
hominem about the poster's name? Where is your empirical approach, Tommy?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 48862 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The true revisionist theme
Date: 7 Jul 1996 12:54:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4roq3u$nf3@access4.digex.net>
References: <4r21k7$c5a@panix2.panix.com> <4ra194$8tj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4ra194$8tj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606 wrote:
>The bottom line I
>am too suspicious of the Stalinist regime and the manner in which evidence
>was presented at Nuremberg.
Let's say for the sake of argument that every piece of evidence and
testimony used at the IMT and all Polish and Russian trials is tainted and
not admissible as evidence. Let's just look at the trials conducted by the
United States, or even better by the West German government. Many years
after the war, SS men were convicted of participation in the gassing in
German courts.
I have never seen any challenge to those trials that the evidence was
falsified or produced by torture. The only excuse I have seen is the
"Staeglich excuse" - that all of the defendants who confessed to gassing
were, without exception, lying because they were sure they'd be convicted
no matter what, and went along to escape more severe punishment if they
showed their lack of remorse by telling the truth (what the "revisionists"
claim is the truth, that is) and denying that there was any gassing. The
excuse then goes that they could not deny the gassings afterwards because
of laws against Holocaust denial.
I'm not sure that even this washes - does anyone know when the
anti-denial laws (which should be repealed, BTW) were passed in each
country? It seems to me they are of reasonably recent origin.
Leaving that aside, I've raised the following issues before, and
nobody has even _tried_ to address the following points:
- Why couldn't they simply say _they personally_ were not involved -
they knew about the gassing, sure, but never took part?
- Why did the witnesses all lie, even fellow SS men? Why didn't they
say they didn't remember whether so-and-so was involved, rather than help
send innocent men to jail? Surely the perjury-proof "I can't recall"
answer was not invented by American politicians?
- Why did some SS men, such as Franz Suchomel, repeat their
confessions in places where there was no fear at all? Suchomel demanded
anonymity to talk to Lanzmann for _Shoah_ (Lanzmann broke the promise) and
then admitted to the Reinhard gassings with no possible personal benefit.
- Why didn't the convicted men recant their false confessions after
serving their sentences? Again, no denial of gassing, just a denial of
personal involvement? At the very least, one would think that we'd see a
lot of letters enclosed with wills by people anxious to restore their good
names.
No "revisionist" has ever even tried to answer these points that I
have seen. Yet the "Staeglich excuse" keeps appearing, with no admission
of these flaws.
Would you like to address the later trials, and not focus exclusively
on the IMT, which is really rather a red herring? Any "revisionist" want
to take a crack at the points I've raised about SS testimony at West
German trials?
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What in the world are Jews doing bowing to white christian trash ?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:55:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4ro52l$j4u@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rkr5l$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>>P.S. Hey, Giwer & Moran! Here are two jews DISAGREEING!!!
>
> About time
You have not been paying attention, then. Until you start reading
everything, understand what you read, and correctly remember what you
read, you are not qualified to participate in the discussions here.
Actually, this is not two Jews disagreeing. MKravits is a forgery;
email to the address bounces. The origin of the posts suggests one of the
Hubers.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48871 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:36:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4rp03m$p1f@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606 wrote:
>Time out! *Holohugger* isn't degrading. It's teasing. Although I would
>tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
>_sensitive_.
Well, I really don't care how touchy-feely Matt is. I've got a rhino
hide. Once again, since I have yet to see your reply to my previous
remarks, what Matt really needs to be more of is _honest_. Saying lamely
that he has a problem with accuracy is rather like saying that Ted Bundy
was a nice boy who had a few problems maintaining a healthy relationship
with women.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 7 Jul 1996 16:19:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4rp658$qlo@access4.digex.net>
References: <2b4_9607062322@tor250.org> <4ro3c8$7hf@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4ro3c8$7hf@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 06 Jul 96 23:05:52, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>> mnc> What an asshole. We know that one "whiff" causes immediate
>> mnc> unconsciousness.
>
>>Only if the cyanide release was fast enough - which you've been
>>arguing against.
>
>>Good lord, Matt - have you really burned yourself out already?!? The
>>others, Moran the moron and Huber the hopeless ect, aren't worth
>>trying to match wits with. I thought thta *YOU* might give me a
>>little bit of a fight, but not with this kind of nonsense!
>
>>You did a much more creditable job, albeit still failing, in Debate,
>>Politics, Controv, Soapbox and even the Ilink conferences!
>
>>This is pathetic!
>
> You are trying a fool's game and not answering the mail.
>
> We KNOW that "one whiff" does not cause recoverable unconsciousness
Not what he said previously about descriptions of US executions,
unless he was writing very poorly (which, I admit, is a possibility).
Mr. Giwer can't keep his trolls consistent.
>and
>we know that the completion of the story requires the flesh and clothing
>to fuse into gelatinous masses.
Matt can't read well enough to understand that nobody said that Zyklon
did that, nor is he relating it accurately. No wonder he can't handle any
of the material.
>If you believe one you believe them both.
Completely invalid logic.
>You are showing yourself no better than a holohugger, yet you pretending
>rationality in your phone calls.
Phone calls? Is Giwer saying Alec is Marduk now?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48921 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:05:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4rnuks$i9q@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rkhjq$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>And you should apologize to Ms. Ostrov for being a sexist cad.
>
> Cad? Fascinating that you should use a word that goes back to a time
>when the terms master and mistress (as in of the house) were in everyday
>use.
Quite aside from the fact that you are completely unqualified to
discuss English usage, as demonstrated by your misusages, neologisms, and
inability to understand perfectly good English words, this is off-topic. I
have posted discussions of cremation and of diesel exhaust several times,
issues about which you have made claims. You have not addressed any of
them. Clearly you cannot.
Instead you post this irrelevant drivel, after telling us how you are
trying desperately to get this newsgroup back on track. It is no wonder
you are identified as a troll. When you stop lying and start dealing with
the material seriously, then the references to you as a lying troll will
stop. It is that simple.
But before you can deal with the material seriously, you will have to
learn reading comprehension. That is not a personal attack. That is a
statement of fact which can be documented from many posts in which you
have clearly demonstrated reading errors the average ten-year-old would
not make. And then you will have to remember what you have read. In some
cases you cannot remember what you posted a week earlier.
You simply aren't intellectually capable of dealing with the material.
Sorry about that.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:26 PDT 1996
Article: 48922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster - Faustian Follies?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:16:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4rnv8l$ich@access4.digex.net>
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In article <4rkh8o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> I made that inference from neither of you and particularly her knowing
>next to nothing about the HTML. It was reinforced when Stein was the
>one who had to do the content based file search when neither of the
>Webrats were able to do so.
I was simply the one who did the search - and Mr. Giwer has repeatedly
misread what I wrote about the results of that search, proving he is an
illiterate. Mr. Giwer has no valid logical basis for making this
statement about the abilities of the others. Simply more evidence that
his intellect is not up to the level needed for dealing with the material
presented here.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:55:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4ro1iq$ilj@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rkqhc$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
[snip]
> It is unclear what a schwarte is doing pointing here.
It is quite clear that Mr. Giwer is illiterate ("schwarte" for
"schwartze" might be a typo, but "pointing?"). It is also clear that
after calling for this newsgroup to get back on track, he is
intellectually incapable of participating in the discussions of cremation
and diesel exhaust which he started but then ran away from. Of course,
given that he neither understands nor remembers what he reads (or writes,
sometimes), it is hard to see what he is intellectually capable of
discussing.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 7 Jul 1996 16:10:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4rp5kj$qig@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rl14t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>>Krema I in Auschwitz
>>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>
> What an asshole. We know that one "whiff" causes immediate
>unconsciousness.
Mr. Giwer once realized that concentration had something to do with
concentration, and that concentration had to do with speed of release from
the carrier, and that speed of release depended on temperature, but he's
forgotten all that again.
> Why are you introducing this nonsense?
Why are you trying to participate in this discussion when you can't
remember from one week to the next what's going on?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:24:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4ro38g$is5@access4.digex.net>
References: <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rje6r$qdm@access5.digex.net> <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48938 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:144 alt.usenet.kooks:26612
In article <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>>>how to stop it all?
>
>> If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
>>lying and stop trolling. That is _my_ description of how to stop it all.
>>It is that simple.
>
>> Especially since you are not even competent at trolling. Words have
>>meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
>>Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess. And you misread and lied about my
>>statements. Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
>>seriously think it will help.
>
> Care do name his book that I am referring to?
If you cannot remember the name of the book, which was given here
within the past few weeks, it is only more evidence that your mind is not
capable of dealing with the material presented here.
>> Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well.
>>Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
>>what features. You obviously haven't got it right yet. Were you in the
>>"slow readers" group as a child? When you get your facts straight, even
>>as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
>>buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
>>subject.
>
> I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
>hear as part of my posts on the subject. If you disagree with those on
>Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.
>
> It would be a first.
The problem is not with the layouts described on Nizkor. The problem
is that you cannot read them correctly, nor remember what you have read.
My posting them here will not improve your reading comprehension.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 8 Jul 1996 02:14:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4rq90r$aqm@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article ,
Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
># Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden
>
>We are still waiting to see it. You have yet to provide such
>"physical evidence" which would pass the "revisionist" standards
>applied when evidence to the Holocaust is given.
>
>Provide it, or shut up.
>
>As long as you don't provide it, you are also "proving" (by
>an extension of your "revisionist arguments") that Dresden was
>not bombed.
>
># of mass extermination at Belsen.
>
>I think you're confusing Belsen and Belzec. Please check this
>before you're making further claims about Belsen (which are, of
>course, irrelevant to Belzec).
Mr. Giwer's original post did say Belsen. Either you misread it, or
he misread his source, or his source erroneously substituted Belsen for
Belzec.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48955 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: 8 Jul 1996 03:24:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4rqd32$bsn@access1.digex.net>
References: <8C3A3FE.0811012A38.uuout@almac.co.uk> <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
>angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:
>
>>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>
>>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>wrong.
>>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.
>>> I would say it is good company to be wrong with.
Last time I looked appeal to authority was still a fallacy.
>>I fail to see why.
>
>>I have asked before and I'll ask again (please note, these are not
>>rhetorical questions and I would welcome the views of any readers) :-
>
>>A.
>>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute
>>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?
>
> They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
>civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.
Although it is not permitted in the US, ex post facto establishment of
penalties for acts which were criminal before the act is a more debatable
matter. Perhaps Mr. Giwer would care to cite the code which defines
"civilized" other than his "Because! I! Say! So!"
>>B.
>>Would it matter if the Nuremberg defendants were tried on the basis of
>>ex post facto laws ? If so, why ?
>
> It would have the same effect if next year it were made a capitol
>offense to post under the name Angus McClellan and you were executed for
>doing so in 1996.
At the very least, the charge of violation of the rules of war at the
IMT was _not_ ex post facto even by US standards. I leave it to Mr. Giwer
to figure out why.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48958 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: 8 Jul 1996 04:00:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4rqf7a$cd7@access1.digex.net>
References: <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rahpi$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rhol0$h7s@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>>>As I have some difficulties with your slang, I didn't first understood
>>>>what you told with "mess of psyrinks". All the psychiatrists that I
>>>>can poll are among the firsts classified in the contests for the
>>>>hospitals (for example, 5, 8 or 11 among 260). The most part of the
>>>>French psychiatrists pass this examination. These that I know are
>>>>always classified in the first quarter.
>
>>>>But this pedigree has nothing to do with your claim: that men can't
>>>>scream only in fear of death. It is ridiculous, and it remains
>>>>ridiculous. I don't find you very likeable, but since I had my own
>>>>experience, I hope that you will never try it yourself.
>
>>> I have serious problems with your restatement also. I did not say can
>>>not anything. I said do not. I have no idea what you are trying to say
>>>with "only in fear of".
>
>>Try "only when afraid of dying" instead of "only in fear of death". Is
>>it clearer?
>
>>>But primarily, I was questioning that you "polled" anyone and implying
>>>that you made it up.
>
>>>Is that clear enough?
>
>>Yes. I had my own experience of a such situation, but I'm lying. I
>>told you to read the book from the French headsman in 1792, and
>>another books from this time, but you wan't. I told you to see the TV
>>reports 1/4h after the Manchester's bombing, but you didn't see what I
>>saw. The testimonies from the WWII are more recent, but faked. I can
>>ask a dozen of psychiatrists if it is likely (that a man will scream
>>when afraid of dying), but what I will report will be made up.
>
>>It's very clear. You don't have even the beginning of an argument. You
>>have only an opinion and use it to tell that all the testimonies of
>>the gassings (of men) are faked. On the top, you don't know if a
>>gassing was painful after some seconds for the victims.
>
> And all of this simply because I noted the ready accessability of a
>dozen psychologists to poll?
>
> You don't even realize that little girls practice screaming.
Nothing in Dr. Bilik's post allows this as a valid logical conclusion.
>You don't even realize that most men know as much about how to scream as
>how to yodel.
I was able to yodel the first time I tried it though I admit that I
might be unusual. Screaming is much easier.
Mr. Giwer is clearly projecting his own handicaps upon other people.
Unless he thinks the pitch is significant, and that what men do ought to
be called "yelling?" Well, Mr. Giwer has already amply demonstrated the
"paupacy" of his skills in the English language. What's one more example?
>Conduct an experiment. Scream. Do you think you are suddenly going to
>learn the technique? Or perhaps you has several sisters and learned
>young.
Mr. Giwer is being extremely silly. Obviously the best he can do,
since he has yet to engage in serious debate over cremation or diesel
exhaust despite my many offers.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48962 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Supersedes: <4rqh3m$ds2@access1.digex.net>
Date: 8 Jul 1996 04:41:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4rqhju$e00@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net> <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> How many from Nizkor have protested the shutdown?
>
> You may all raise your hands.
I have a query in to psnw asking for an explanation, with a note that
I object to the cutoff unless it is for a terms-of-service violation.
Of course Mr. Giwer's pious pretentions to support of free speech ring
rather hollow, as according his own words he conspired to censor Rack
Jite's web page. He later claimed it was Combase's doing, due to libel,
but of course Mr. Giwer's words prior to the cutoff were that one way or
another the page would come down. Note he did not say the (allegedly)
false information, but the _page_ (i.e., everything on it), and after the
page was removed said that it only took _him_ four days to get it shut
down (taking personal credit, not saying it was Combase's doing). Seems
to be something of a contradiction here. And of course Mr. Giwer freely
libels other people in this newsgroup.
Mr. Giwer is clearly a hypocritical liar who has no objection to
censorship or libel when he is the author of it - not a personal attack,
just an observation of well-documented fact.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 08:50:33 PDT 1996
Article: 49010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Followup-To: alt.discrimination,alt.conspiracy,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 8 Jul 1996 01:19:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4rq5pf$a8m@access1.digex.net>
References: <31dd2d95.2437571@news.pacificnet.net> <5JUL199610570486@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31de700a.691725@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <31de700a.691725@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
> The two little books mentioned are the "O.T." including the Torah
>and the wicked Talmud.
Oh, oh, Tommy is pulling out the big guns now. The "wicked Talmud."
I've never heard it called a "little book" before, though. Tommy, do you
have any idea at all how many pages the Talmud has? Could you even tell a
Talmud from a Tel Aviv telephone directory?
Well, Tommy, maybe you'd better tell us what's so wicked about the
Talmud. Whatever happened to the empirical approach? Here you are with
an argumentum ad ignorantiam. Where are your "explicits," Tommy?
You wouldn't be so dishonest as to quote the wicked words without also
quoting any other words that say the wicked words are wrong, would
you?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 19:56:50 PDT 1996
Article: 49023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Supersedes: <4rq7vr$alp@access1.digex.net>
Date: 8 Jul 1996 04:34:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4rqh7c$dtg@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>
>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>
>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>
>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>____________________________________________________________________
>
>> As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley
>>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust)
>>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web. The Bradley R. Smith
>>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially
>>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.
>
> It was an appropriate time for the site to be censored. It demonstrates
>the intentions of the owners are contrary to the founding principles of
>the United States.
>
> Of course individuals have a right to do what they want. It is their
>choice. It is simply an example of the degradation of constitutional
>principles upon which the country was founded.
>
> May they rot in hell.
If Mr. Giwer would like to explain the contradiction between his
statement that the disappearance of Rack Jite's pages from Volant Turnpike
were due to Combase's complaint (initiated after Mr. Giwer told them there
was something allegedly libelous to complain about), and his earlier boast
that it only took _him_ (Mr. Giwer, not Combase) four days to make the
pages disappear, now would be a good time to do it. Not that Mr. Giwer
seems to have any special objection to libel, as he commits it so often
here - not a personal attack, just a statement of provable fact.
Mr. Giwer's commitment to the principles of free speech seem to be
subject to change according to his whims of the moment, and whether it's
his ox that's being gored.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 8 19:56:51 PDT 1996
Article: 49065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 8 Jul 1996 01:48:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4rq7f9$aiq@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net> <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> How many from Nizkor have protested the shutdown?
>
> You may all raise your hands.
I have a query in to psnw asking for an explanation, with a note that
I object to the cutoff unless it is for a terms-of-service violation.
Of course Mr. Giwer's pious pretentions to support of free speech ring
rather hollow, as according his own words he conspired to censor Rack
Jite's web page. He later claimed it was Combase's doing, due to libel,
but of course Mr. Giwer's words prior to the cutoff were that one way or
another the page would come down. Note he did not say the (allegedly)
false information, but the _page_ (i.e., everything on it), and after the
page was removed said that it only took _him_ two days to shut it down
(taking personal credit, not saying it was Combase's doing). Seems to be
something of a contradiction here. And of course Mr. Giwer freely libels
other people in this newsgroup.
Mr. Giwer is clearly a hypocritical liar who has no objection to
censorship or libel when he is the author of it - not a personal attack,
just an observation of well-documented fact.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul 8 20:17:33 PDT 1996
Article: 144 of alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:24:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4ro38g$is5@access4.digex.net>
References: <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rje6r$qdm@access5.digex.net> <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48938 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:144 alt.usenet.kooks:26612
In article <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>>>how to stop it all?
>
>> If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
>>lying and stop trolling. That is _my_ description of how to stop it all.
>>It is that simple.
>
>> Especially since you are not even competent at trolling. Words have
>>meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
>>Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess. And you misread and lied about my
>>statements. Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
>>seriously think it will help.
>
> Care do name his book that I am referring to?
If you cannot remember the name of the book, which was given here
within the past few weeks, it is only more evidence that your mind is not
capable of dealing with the material presented here.
>> Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well.
>>Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
>>what features. You obviously haven't got it right yet. Were you in the
>>"slow readers" group as a child? When you get your facts straight, even
>>as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
>>buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
>>subject.
>
> I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
>hear as part of my posts on the subject. If you disagree with those on
>Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.
>
> It would be a first.
The problem is not with the layouts described on Nizkor. The problem
is that you cannot read them correctly, nor remember what you have read.
My posting them here will not improve your reading comprehension.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Jul 9 07:36:52 PDT 1996
Article: 49112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:25:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 151
Message-ID: <4roveh$os4@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
wrote:
> The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
>guilt to explain. All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
>on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.
The failure of "revisionists" to shake this "myth" does not need any
repression to explain. All you have to do is to read the lies,
distortions, false logic, and other intellectual shortcomings in the works
of revisionists - including Mr. Giwer himself - and it becomes quite clear
that the "real world" is something they are hardly qualified to talk
about.
> It is not permitted to publically express any questions about the
>current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media. In some
>countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.
This was not always the case even in Germany (and I do wish they would
repeal the laws, as it gives people like Mr. Giwer a wonderful red herring
to wave about). It is certainly not the case in this country.
Mr. Giwer has complained of conspiracies to censor him and harrass him
and his family due to his posts here. He can, of course, supply no
evidence other than his own word, which has been proved false on many
occasions - and he can, of course, provide no evidence that any genuine
harrassment has come as a result of his questioning of the Holocaust,
rather than his provable lies and libel. But he pretends to be unaware
that one can avoid that in this forum through the use of anonymous
remailers such as anon.penet.fi.
Revisionists have come into this forum and left after they were unable
to reply to rebuttals of their logic and falsification of their evidence.
Mr. Giwer's lies to the contrary, Greg Raven was presented with cogent
critiques of his methodology and of the distortions and dishonest
omissions contained in the sources he cited for his own arguments. Like
Mr. Giwer, he now refers to reminders of his own proven dishonesty as
"personal attacks."
Friedrich Berg was presented with technical references on toxicology
and gaping holes in his own reasoning, plus evidence that he distorted
material he cited in his own work. Mr. Giwer has been presented with my
material addressing Berg on more than one occasion. Despite Mr. Giwer's
professed scientific and engineering background, Mr. Giwer has not been
able to offer any substantive response to it.
Michael Hoffman got similar treatment; his references were checked
(the affidavits of Morgen and Mittelstadt) and it was shown how he was
reading them in a completely invalid manner. He too provably lied - not
about the Holocaust, but about his justification for denigrating my
knowledge of Hebrew. (His claimed justification was a comment I made
nearly three weeks _after_ his insult was delivered. I don't _think_ he
owns a time machine.)
> I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
>inspection.
Mr. Giwer has shown some deficiencies in the thinking department
before. Not to mention the reading comprehension and memory departments.
> The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
>would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
>vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be. The
>"explanations" the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
>happening again, are obviously transparent and false.
BECAUSE! I! SAY! SO!
I wonder if Mr. Giwer would like to turn a similar skeptical eye on
the explanations of the IHR "revisionists" as to the motives for their
vigorous efforts to disprove any Nazi policy of mass murder, using
doctored "evidence" if need be.
> What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done. Blood
>money for Israel is another suggestion. However at this point the
>reasons suggested are speculation.
>
> Consider the difference in Russia. They trot out their war heroes in
>November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
>year. But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
>war.
>
> However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
>and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war. It
>is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
>As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
>the loss of Texas and California.
>
> This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature.
So too is the complete lack of recantation of those supposedly coerced
false confessions. One or two might be explainable as the kind of
brainwashing of the witchcraft trial kind, as some "revisionists" feebly
try to pretend, but the number of testimonies contrary to self-interest
is, in my view, too large - and too unbalanced by later retraction - to be
convincing. Mr. Giwer is welcome to address this point, which I have
raised before and which no "revisionist" has dared to touch.
>As I
>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>day he died.
>
>There is something very, very wrong with this behavior. It needs help,
>not encouragement.
The same can be said of Mr. Giwer's behavior. He claims that he is
just trying to get this newsgroup back on track, without personal attacks.
However, he has run away from discussions of cremation and of diesel
exhaust gassing which he initiated. Clearly he doesn't have the capacity
to debate the material with someone who has some familiarity with it.
And he has also said he is here to debunk. (But what kind of
debunking is it that needs to lie, as Mr. Giwer has provably done, time
and again?) Earlier said that his purpose here was to amuse himself
dealing with the type of people he found here - in other words, to troll.
It is hard to see how all of Mr. Giwer's statements here can be true.
Many are provably false. This is not a personal attack; it is a statement
of fact which I have backed up with self-contradictory quotes from Mr.
Giwer's own posts as well as comparison of the words of others (including
my own) with Mr. Giwer's blatant misrepresentations of those words, and
his dishonest editing.
Anytime Mr. Giwer wishes to engage in serious debate about the
Holocaust he is free to do so and I am here for him. But he cannot read
with comprehension, cannot remember what he has read (or, sometimes,
written!) and has run away from substantive discussion of issues where he
claims to have a solid grounding, technical and scientific issues. It is
clear that he cannot cope with the material, so he must lie and spam and
troll and hope to distract people from the intellectual failures which are
well-documented in his own posts.
I have given him every opportunity to respond with serious debate, but
he has run away time and again, one time lying that I have deleted his
work (which I have not done, and he of course never offers documentation
of his own claims). It is clear that he is just a lying troll who has no
real interest or ability to discuss these issues (or even understand them,
as he demonstrates repeated failures of reading comprehension).
If he wants people to stop referring to him as a lying troll, all he
has to do is stop lying and stop trolling. It is that simple. But so far
he has shown no mental capacity to do anything better. Too bad.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 07:36:53 PDT 1996
Article: 49132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:34:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4rsk0r$our@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4ro2mq$1v9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31DFFE86.492F@unb.ca> <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:14:30 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:30:54 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>
>>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> >> It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing. I
>>> >> had no idea what gas was used. I had only heard about gassing.
>>> >>
>>> >> But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>>> >> likely agent.
>>> >>
>>> >> When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>>> >> collapsed.
>>>
>>> >Tabun was the first dedicated nerve agent, the second, Sarin, only
>>> >having been produced in test quantities and the third, Soman, was in
>>> >developement when the material was seized by the Soviets who were the first
>>> >to actually produce it. Tabun, Sarin and Soman have the NATO codenames
>>> >GA, GB and GD. Sarin was NATO's standard nerve agent until the developement
>>> >of the V series nerve gasses.
>>>
>>> >They were developed from insecticides and work by blocking
>>> >neurotransmitters, essentially causing the nervous system to simply shut
>>> >down and the body to die. Field antidote is usually atropine which causes
>>> >neurotransmitter release to increase, hopefully more than the nerve agent
>>> >can block.
>>>
>>> You fail to make any points here.
>
>>I am providing background information so that the reader may render
>>a somewhat informed judgement on the topic. I'm well aware that putting
>>things in context and providing information is a foreign concept to
>>you, but I have no hope of ever making you acknowledge anything.
>
>
>>> >Sarin has a very low natural detoxification level, thus can build up in the
>>> >body to fatal levels. It is persistant in enclosed structures and the
>>> >recommended method of decontamination is by chemical treatment or live steam
>>> >to accelerate the natural breakdown. Left by itself it may last in
>>> >significant concentrations for several days and also is denser than air,
>>> >thus may tend to concentrate in low places (like cellars).
>>>
>>> >Field use requires full protective gear (gas mask and enclosed sealed suit).
>>>
>>> >Reasons Sarin might be used in a gas chamber:
>>>
>>> > Deadly as all hell (faster than Zyklon B, less concentration required)
>>>
>>> > Exposure to skin and inhalation both possibly fatal (Zyklon B usually
>>> > only fatal after inhalation)
>>>
>>> >Reasons Sarin would be impractical in a gas chamber:
>>>
>>> > Full protective gear required by operators of chamber
>>>
>>> > -Zyklon B requires gas mask and gloves
>>>
>>> Save that the reported times to death are on the same order as those
>>> reported for HCN. I have read reports of everything from instantaneous
>>> to two days. They accumulate around 10-20 minutes. That is nerve gas.
>>>
>>> I can not change that.
>
>>Nor can I change the fact that you so blatently omitted the subsequent reasons
>>I posted as to why Zyklon B would be a technically and operationally better
>>agent than a nerve agent such as Sarin. Why don't you puzzle those reasons
>>out for a while and then get back to me when you actually have something
>>interesting to say other than insipid comments and non-sequitors?
>
> I made one point, that the time frame for HCN deaths were on the same
>order as nerve gas. You went on to repeat a canned answer to something
>I did not address. At no time did I state that nerve gas would have
>been a better choice.
>
> So how much did you want left in? The point is very simple. The time
>frame for death from breathing cyanide and from nerve gas (and from
>carbon monoxide for that matter) are all reported to be approximately
>the same by the eyewitnesses.
>
> The point I was making, which has NOTHING whatever to do with "why
>didn't they use nerve gas?," is that finding HCN in the same time frame
>as nerve gas was my first serious indication that there was something
>wrong with the stories based upon my assumption that that it had been
>nerve gas.
>
> To go further, it was later finding CO deaths on the same order as HCN
>and nerve gas that indicated there was something seriously wrong with
>the stories.
>
> Now if you would like to address the point I am making, please do so.
The only thing I see wrong here is with your ability to read,
understand, and evaluate what you read. Zyklon will vary depending on
room size, concentration, and temperature. Witnesses will vary in their
estimates of times. Only a very stupid person would not take into
consideration these very simple points. You are not taking these very
simple points into consideration. The conclusion is left as exercise to
the reader.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Jul 9 07:36:53 PDT 1996
Article: 49146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 06:37:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4rtcom$no9@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rqh7c$dtg@access1.digex.net> <4rt414$avn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rt414$avn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 04:34:52 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>>>
>>>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>>>
>>>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>>>
>>>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>>>____________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>> As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley
>>>>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust)
>>>>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web. The Bradley R. Smith
>>>>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially
>>>>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.
>>>
>>> It was an appropriate time for the site to be censored. It demonstrates
>>>the intentions of the owners are contrary to the founding principles of
>>>the United States.
>>>
>>> Of course individuals have a right to do what they want. It is their
>>>choice. It is simply an example of the degradation of constitutional
>>>principles upon which the country was founded.
>>>
>>> May they rot in hell.
>
>> If Mr. Giwer would like to explain the contradiction between his
>>statement that the disappearance of Rack Jite's pages from Volant Turnpike
>>were due to Combase's complaint (initiated after Mr. Giwer told them there
>>was something allegedly libelous to complain about),
>
> Criminal copyright violation, lying asshole.
Make up your mind which true truth is true today. You said both
copyright and libel at first, but you contradicted yourself later, saying
it was Combase's doing due to the libel. Even then you were part of the
conspiracy. And of course we are still left with the problem that you did
not restrict yourself to saying the violations would come down; you said
it would be the _page_. I cannot change that, censor.
You'd think a 163 IQ type would be able to keep track of his lies
better, and avoid making self-incriminating statements. But he can't even
read simple text right a significant percent of the time.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Jul 9 12:46:24 PDT 1996
Article: 49206 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:57:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4rp1af$pb6@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4reifm$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4reifm$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, wrote:
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Normal people do not mourn even their own deceased parents for years.
>
>>I am *so* glad we have Mr. Giwer to tell us what "normal" people do.
>>
>>>
>>> You appear to have succomb to some kind of cultural admonishmion to do
>>> so.
>>
>>Giwerese. I don't know what "to have succomb" means, nor do i know what
>>the word "admonishmion" is. I suspect (Ken, help?) it's some
>>bastardization of the Yiddish word "mish-mosh," meaning a conglomeration.
>>
>>If, in fact, he means the word "admonision," what is this "cultural
>>admonision" forcing me to mourn deceased relatives?
>
> When all else fails, attack the typos.
This from the man who, when all else fails, attacks killfile and HTML
knowledge. You'd think such a person would be able to master a
spell-checker. But I'd prefer mastery of honesty, both intellectual and
factual. Reading comprehension should be next on the list.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Jul 9 12:46:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but mi
Date: 8 Jul 1996 02:25:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4rq9kd$au2@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rl1bu$mpk@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rln6i$ok5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rq026$jts@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <4rq026$jts@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee wrote:
>In article <4rln6i$ok5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>said:
>
>>The Orange--When access was interupted at midnight July 3/4 it was at
>>first presumed that it might be some sort of innocent "glitch" that they
>>had predicted. But prompt checks the next morning got confirmation from
>>PSNW people that CODOH's site had been purposely disconnected, without
>>warning, for reasons they refused to specify.
>
>Apart from the fact that what you say is bullshit, please tell us how and
>where you get such intimate knowledge of Mr. Smith's travails.
I thought that everyone here knew that DvdThomas _maintained_ Mr.
Smith's website. I think that would give him intimiate knowledge of what
goes on there.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 12:46:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49230 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:04:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 192
Message-ID: <4rtvtq$gdh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rknub$m1q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rr9ub$dbr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rt2ue$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:49230 alt.censorship:88150
In article <4rt2ue$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 13:21:05 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>wrote:
>
>>mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein) wrote:
>
>>> Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>>> lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>>> the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.
>
>>And, as you indicated in another thread, Mr. Stein, Matt Giwer's
>>intention was to get the complete site taken down, not just the libel in
>>question.
>
>>Matt Giwer also posted messages indicating that he was going to try to
>>get another site taken down for violation of copyright. [...]
> But as with all holohuggers are you are liar.
>
> My complaint was legally with copyright violation.
The only error I see in Jamie's post is that it was not another site,
it was the same site - Rack Jite's. Perhaps our 163 IQ type will
entertain us with an explanation of how "copyright violation" is different
>from "violation of copyright." (I suspect he will remain silent on this
latest demonstration of his complete lack of reading comprehension.)
But Mr. Giwer should try to keep his true truths straight. Here are a
few choice excerpts from his previous posts - along with DejaNews URLs to
allow anyone to read the full history, should they choose, and determine
for themselves the truth of what I say here.
He says now that his complaint was with copyright violation? But
back in March, he said he wasn't going to pursue the copyright violation,
it was the libel, ...
1996/03/09
What could be recovered is not worth the cost of recovery. I am
simply pointing it out. I make money on such work. He has
appropriated something of value of mine for his own use.
Beyond that of course it the libel. The page will go away, one way
or another.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8650598&server=dnserver.db96q1
1996/03/17
You folks have a rather juvenile idea of what fun is. Or are you now
pretending I was talking about pursuing the copyright rather than the
libel?
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10363769&server=dnserver.db96q1
... unless this next excerpt is a forgery. But Mr. Giwer did not deny
sending this email which he quoted from Rack Jite's post:
1996/03/19
>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:27:08 -0500
>From: Matt Giwer
>To: root@turnpike.net
>Subject: your complicity in libel
>You are carrying this page.
>http://emporium.turnpike.net/H/HR/giwer.htm
>If you check my page with contact.html you will find the page you are
>carrying clearly refers to me.
>I request this false and malicious libel be removed immediately.
>--------
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?
recnum=%3c4il7fa$90c@wi.combase.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1
Note that the subject of the message was the libel, no mention of a
copyright violation. And now he takes credit - no mention of Combase
being responsible:
1996/03/21
As I said the libelous and and copyright violating page of David
Dahlman has gone done. If anyone feels harmed by any of his pages
simply contact the webmaster at his service provider. And it only
took me four days from discovering the libelous and thieving page
existed.
If anyone else has a problem with this hate site simply contact the
webmaster who is very agreeable to eliminate such tortable violations
fo the law.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=9954589&server=dnserver.db96q1
I also forgot to mention Mr. Giwer's harrassment or conspiracy to
harrass c2.org:
1996/03/22
We are now in the process of seeing if c2.org will continue to host
your libel now that they have been informed.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10095578&server=dnserver.db96q1
I note that the page http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/giwer.htm is still on
c2.org. I guess Mr. Giwer can bluster and threaten and bully, but that's
all he's capable of doing.
But he changed his tune when I pointed out his censorship. Too bad
about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike, which he did not deny
sending at the time Rack Jite posted it.
1996/06/09
Anything that happened to Dahlman's page had only peripherally to do
with me in that I pointed it out to Combase.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8905677&server=dnserver.dbapr
Oh? But what about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike?
Now the latest true truth from Mr. Giwer is that it was due to the
copyright. Come back tomorrow to see if Mr. Giwer can come up with
another story which doesn't match any of the previous ones.
You would think a 163 IQ type could keep his lies straight.
Note that I take no position on whether the page is libelous or
copyright violating or not. It is certainly uncomplimentary and abusive
to Mr. Giwer. I merely point out the following facts:
- Mr. Giwer has told contradictory stories about who complained
and why.
- We have seen no judicial determination of libel, nor of copyright
violation, criminal or otherwise. Therefore Rack Jite is currently
legally innocent. Rather than pursuing remedies through proper
legal channels, Mr. Giwer has, by his own definition, harrassed
and engaged in conspiracy to harrass Rack Jite's service providers
in order to suppress the page in question as a shortcut. If he
is not able to convince a court that his complaint has legal merit,
then he was indeed engaging in the same kind of harrassment and
censorship campaign that he alleges was used against him.
Not a personal attack, just stating documented fact. Do please check out
the URLs cited above; wouldn't want Mr. Giwer to claim I am taking things
out of context to fool people. Not that he has any scruples about doing that
when it suits his purposes. He's edited posts of mine so that he can reply
to a very distorted version of what I said rather than trying to address
the whole argument, which he was clearly incapable of rebutting.
Mr. Giwer has said he's here to engage in debunking. (True to form,
he's given a couple of other explanations as well.) But what kind of
debunking is it that has to lie and distort?
> As to the libel, Alec Grynspan has "testified" to that and Davey-girl
>has been too busy selling machine tools to participated lately.
Hard to see how Alec can know whether there was any libel against
Combase. But again, the point here is simply that Mr. Giwer has told
contradictory stories about what happened, and that Mr. Giwer has
attempted to suppress speech without securing a judicial determination
that the speech is indeed in violation of the law.
Why does he keep lying like this? Even an idiot should know by now
that my memory is good enough to enable me to pull proof of his lies from
DejaNews with a minimum of effort. But maybe the reason is contained in a
quote from one of Mr. Giwer's own recent posts:
"When one is riding the tiger, one knows that it is impossible to get
off."
I'm sorry to have to point out that the tiger of his own lies will
devour him no matter how hard he tries to stay on its back.
Posted and emailed to Ehrlich606, who recently expressed the thought
that Mr. Giwer is deserving of respect. Also the thought that the
"Friends of Nizkor" (whoever they are) would stop at nothing to destroy
those with whom they disagree. As I said before, Mr. Giwer is destroying
himself with his own lies and stupidity. What have I done here but
document Mr. Giwer's own record? All he has to do to stop the destruction
is to stop his self-destructive behavior. It is that simple.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 14:22:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49253 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:33:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <4ru1kr$i2c@access5.digex.net>
References: <8C3A3FE.0811012A38.uuout@almac.co.uk> <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rqd32$bsn@access1.digex.net> <4rt5k3$dtk@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rt5k3$dtk@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 03:24:18 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>>
>>>>> When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>>>wrong.
>>>>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
>>>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190.
>>>>> I would say it is good company to be wrong with.
>
>> Last time I looked appeal to authority was still a fallacy.
>
> This is not an appeal, it it clearly a reference to good company to be
>in as is stated.
It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck. Remember your alleged
Israeli constitution?
>Douglas may or may not be (have been) correct. Your
>lack fo substantive refutation is another volume in the ongoing
>discussion.
You should not have edited it out of my post. But given your lack of
reading comprehension, maybe you just missed it. Let's try again.
Seeing as you like them so much, here is a riddle. The charge of
violation of the rules and customs of war was ex post facto - but not at
Nuremberg.
>>>>A.
>>>>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute
>>>>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?
>>>
>>> They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
>>>civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.
>
>> Although it is not permitted in the US, ex post facto establishment of
>>penalties for acts which were criminal before the act is a more debatable
>>matter. Perhaps Mr. Giwer would care to cite the code which defines
>>"civilized" other than his "Because! I! Say! So!"
>
> Civilized means, among other things, countries that do not permit ex
>post facto laws to be enacted.
Last time I looked, begging the question was also a fallacy.
To what objective standard of "civilized" do you appeal? Where does
it say that there is no distinction between making an act criminal ex post
facto, and adding a penalty for an act clearly illegal before the act was
committed?
US law prohibits both, but if you are holding up US law as an
objective standard of civilization then you must explain why those who
call US law uncivilized due to its permission of the death penalty are
wrong.
>Of course you, being neutral on the
>matter, would agree with any US law retroactively making brain sucking
>abortions equal to murder and mandating execution of the doctors who
>performed it and the women who paid for these murders.
I have said nothing of the sort. I am merely pointing out that you
are making statements which consist of empty assertion with no reasoning
behind them. Clearly you are unable to support your assertions with
reasoned argument. Fine by me.
> But of course you would support such a law because you have no problem
>with brain-sucking and the like.
>
> You would also have no problem wtih executing those who let blacks die
>of syphillis without treatment because they wanted to study the progress
>of the disease. We have a Surgeon General nominee in need of execution
>under that law.
>
> These are clearly two different examples and politically opposed. I can
>give you more if you would like. (How about using the FBI against
>political enemies as a capital offense?) But then you will go to any
>effort you can to exonorate the idiots you pretend to support in public
>but will question in private.
Nice paranoid rant but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I
said. All I have done is ask you to justify your own unsupported
definition of what is and isn't civilized. If you cannot, as seems pretty
clear by now, just say so and we can move on to other matters.
I'd like nothing better than to discuss the topic of this newsgroup,
matters such as cremation and the technical aspects of diesel exhaust
gassing, but so far you've shown no inclination (ability?) to address
them. I can't keep this newsgroup on track alone, you know.
And remember the riddle. See if you can figure out the answer.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 15:36:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49267 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Well, actually...
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:25:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4rsjfp$ol3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rij7u$7fb@atlas.uniserve.com> <4rj8ke$rdi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rj8ke$rdi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606 wrote:
>What usually transpires is that someone will be decent -- if memory
>serves, it is usually Mike Stein -- who will step forward and be nice.
>But such interjections are few and far between.
Interesting that you perceive it that way. I think of it as fairness.
If I believe you deserve a heapin' helpin' of chastisement for something
you've done, rest assured I will deliver what's due you. But by the same
token, as you have seen, I will speak up if I see you getting it for
something you're _not_ guilty of - even if I'm in the middle of dishing it
out for a different infraction.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 17:13:21 PDT 1996
Article: 49281 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:12:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <4ru3t8$jir@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net> <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 06:36:15 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>
>>>># Anyone want to explain this one?
>>>
>>>>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]
>>>
>>>>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing?
>>>>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>>>>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>>>>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange"
>>>>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?
>>>
>>> Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
>>>evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.
>
>> Gosh, there is physical evidence of a burned Chicago. Guess it was
>>firebombed.
>
> I have been over this territory before. You have not been paying
>attention. There are records of the mission planning, the mission
>briefings,
Writing down testimony does not make it a document, remember? That
was your response about the letter to Rauff.
Perhaps you would like to quote from them where they say that the city
would be firebombed, not just bombed? Got a reference? I thought not.
But even then, we would have to ask if this could not have been just a
morbid sense of humor? Got a chain of custody for those mission records?
It is only one bombing mission out of many. It is an anomaly just as you
say the Vergasungskeller memo was an anomaly. Are we not required to look
for alternative explanations of anomalies like this? Have you done so?
number reels of bomb site films associated with the mission,
>before and after reconnaisance pictures with associated reel numbers
>related to the mission. There are inventory records of the bombs
>assigned to the mission.
>
> All of it points to the smoking gun, physical evidence of aerial
>bombardment.
>
> Now where were you when I recited the above last time? Bad news feed?
Whee, there was aerial bombardment of many cities. If mission records
of bombings are sufficient evidence of firebombing, then every city in
Europe had a Dresden-style barbecue, obviously.
Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow is looking guiltier all the time.
>
>>[snip]
>
>>> There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>
>> There may be bomb craters. There may be evidence of a fire. But
>>establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)? Or the intentionality
>>of the fire? What physical evidence do you have for that? None, of
>>course.
>
> All of the above.
Simply asserting it does not make it so.
>>>There is no physical evidence of mass extermination by any means at
>>>Belsen.
>>>
>>>You know the difference. It is simply inconvenient for you to admit to
>>>the difference.
>
>> Please tell us what physical evidence you have that the Dresden fire
>>was not really caused by Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow, and that the bombing was
>>just coincidence. None, of course.
>
>As you have now read for the third time a minimal recitation of the type
>of physical evidence that exists, exists such that not one person need
>ever testify to it or admit complicity, you have the answer for the
>third time.
Still no evidence of a causal link between the bombs and fire other
than post hoc ergo propter hoc, which is a fallacy.
> Or is this to be an exercise it hoping I get tired of repeating myself
>or happen to miss making one repetition so you can again claim that I
>have refused to discuss a subject?
You can repeat claims of physical evidence all you like, but it will
not make it true.
I have done nothing but hold you to the same strict standards of
evidence you have applied elsewhere. You have yet to meet them. Sorry
about that.
Or do you now consider it acceptable for me to recite as _physical
evidence_ a list of the documents such as the Vergasungskeller letter, the
references to a "Sonderkeller," the inventory sheet for showerheads in a
room showing no plans for shower plumbing, the morgue whose convenient
corpse chute was replaced by inconvenient trips down the stairs, the
letter from Topf talking about cyanide detectors for the Kremas, traces of
cyanide in the Kremas, the memo with plans to heat a supposed morgue with
waste heat from the crematory ovens (heat a morgue?! but then, the
Germans like Limburger also), the letter to Rauff about gassing vans
_confirmed_ by Rauff in his deposition in Chile, ...
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 20:35:30 PDT 1996
Article: 49305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 9 Jul 1996 18:16:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <4rulnr$437@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rnqcc$glk@access4.digex.net> <4rnsbl$s63@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rnsbl$s63@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 03:52:44 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>> A possible position. However as you have seen the game played here
>>>>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>>>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.
>>>>> That is unacceptable.
>>>
>>>> The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>>>>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>>>>side demolishes your arguments.
>>>
>>>The point is that similar methods are used by both sides
>
>> False.
>
>
>>>and there is in
>>>fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.
>
>> False.
>
>
>
>>> What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
>>>their sources are unimpeachable.
>
>> False.
>
> Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point.
I am merely following Mr. Giwer's shining example here. If mere
assertion is good enough for his claim that there is some pretense of
unimpeachability, who am I to buck his obvious winning formula?
Of course, he and I also both know that neither I nor anyone else can
prove the nonexistence of a post where someone makes some sort of claim.
And we also both know that _he_ made the claim of pretense of
unimpeachability, therefore _he_ bears the burden of proof.
His evidence? None, of course. After all, mere assertion _is_ always
the best way to make a point.
[...]
>>>>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>>>>posting to me and about me?
>>>
>>>> Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>>>>"simpering bitch". Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>>>>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>>>>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?
>>>
>>>HRO's posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
>>>insults. What makes you think she should be immune from response?
>
>> It is not a personal attack to call Mr. Giwer a liar. He lies. That
>>is a statement of fact which can be proved to courtroom standards. I have
>>offered a wager that I can prove this to a neutral arbiter from the
>>American Arbitration Association. Mr. Giwer has not responded to this
>>wager.
>
> Mere assertion is always the best resopnse.
The volume of Mr. Giwer's posts which consist of nothing but assertion
clearly demonstrate his sincere belief in this principle.
For those morons who think that silly things like evidence matter, I
suppose there is always
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
But it is obviously censored, as I know he has told many more lies than
are documented there.
> I have seen the "wager game" played out for 19 years in the public
>forums and I am not interested in it in the least.
He is not interested in losing $1,000? Heavens, he's not completely
around the bend after all.
>It is only newbies who still engage in it.
Wanna bet?
Yes, mere assertion _is_ always the best response. For lying trolls
who don't have any evidence, that is. That's the best they can do. Not a
personal attack, just a statement of fact.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 9 20:35:34 PDT 1996
Article: 49310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.intersurf.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH shut down
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:53:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4rsl44$pih@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rl3fk$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rl3fk$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> No organization can both claim to desire common carrier status as an ISP
>and censor what they carry.
Guess we both know what Volant Turnpike can't claim to desire.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: 9 Jul 1996 17:01:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4ruhc4$tm@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ragsd$ink@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rn51t$7rh@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4rqa5u$59l@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt783$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rt783$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 96 12:31:32 GMT, @stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
> IF you had a measurable IQ, son of Jew hating murders, you would not be
>posting this nonsense.
One might also think that if Matt Giwer had the ability to come up
with an intelligent response, he would not be posting this mindless
insult.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49396 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 05:17:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4rvsg1$2ls@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rknub$m1q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rmu49$qa9@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rr9ub$dbr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rt2r3$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rt2r3$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 08:36:43 -0700, mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4rmu49$qa9@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
>>Rich Graves wrote:
>>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>>>As always, your organization is welcome on the web, and encouraged to
>>>participate in substantive discussions rather than spamming a la Giwer. I
>>>challenge you to point out a single message in this forum supporting the
>>>censorship of liars on the basis of content.
>
>> Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>>lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>>the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.
>
> That, as expected, is false.
>
> I supported ONLY stopping a website from violating copyright.
>
> But then of course, holohuggers always lie.
*yawn*. Check out the quotes below. But please don't take my word
for it. Verify them with the DejaNews URLs. I really, really, really
want to see if Mr. Giwer is crazy enough to try to claim that I have
somehow broken into DejaNews and altered his words which are archived
there, which prove he is (once again) lying above.
Why does he lie so often? Clearly our 163 IQ type is admitting he
doesn't have the intellectual horsepower to beat a mere holohugger in
debate without resorting to lies and deception. Poor boy, it's really the
best he can do. And it would appear he's self-deluded enough to believe
he's winning with his antics. This is so sad.
When he started this charade, he mentioned both copyright and libel.
But then he dropped the copyright, and concentrated on the alleged libel.
1996/03/09
What could be recovered is not worth the cost of recovery. I am
simply pointing it out. I make money on such work. He has
appropriated something of value of mine for his own use.
Beyond that of course it the libel. The page will go away, one way or
another.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8650598&server=dnserver.db96q1
1996/03/17
You folks have a rather juvenile idea of what fun is. Or are you now
pretending I was talking about pursuing the copyright rather than the
libel?
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10363769&server=dnserver.db96q1
Unless the following is a forgery. But Mr. Giwer did not deny sending
this email which he quoted from Rack Jite's post:
1996/03/19
>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:27:08 -0500
>From: Matt Giwer
>To: root@turnpike.net
>Subject: your complicity in libel
>You are carrying this page.
>http://emporium.turnpike.net/H/HR/giwer.htm
>If you check my page with contact.html you will find the page you are
>carrying clearly refers to me.
>I request this false and malicious libel be removed immediately.
>--------
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4il7fa$90c@wi.combase.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1
Note that the subject of the message was the libel, no mention of a
copyright violation. And now he takes credit - no mention of Combase being
responsible:
1996/03/21
As I said the libelous and and copyright violating page of David
Dahlman has gone done. If anyone feels harmed by any of his pages
simply contact the webmaster at his service provider. And it only
took me four days from discovering the libelous and thieving page
existed.
If anyone else has a problem with this hate site simply contact the
webmaster who is very agreeable to eliminate such tortable violations
fo the law.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=9954589&server=dnserver.db96q1
I also forgot to mention Mr. Giwer's harrassment or conspiracy to harrass
c2.org:
1996/03/22
We are now in the process of seeing if c2.org will continue to host
your libel now that they have been informed.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10095578&server=dnserver.db96q1
(By the way, I note that the page http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/giwer.htm
is still on c2.org. I guess Mr. Giwer can bluster and threaten and bully,
but that's all he's capable of doing.)
But he changed his tune when I pointed out his censorship. Too bad
about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike, which he did not deny
sending at the time Rack Jite posted it.
1996/06/09
Anything that happened to Dahlman's page had only peripherally to do with
me in that I pointed it out to Combase.
http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8905677&server=dnserver.dbapr
Now the latest true truth from Mr. Giwer is that it was due to the
copyright. Come back tomorrow to see if Mr. Giwer can come up with
another story which doesn't match any of the previous ones.
You would think a 163 IQ type could keep his lies straight.
Note that I take no position on whether the page is libelous or
copyright violating or not. I merely point out the following facts:
- Mr. Giwer has told contradictory stories about who complained
and why.
- There has been no judicial determination of libel, nor of copyright
violation, criminal or otherwise. Therefore Rack Jite is currently
legally innocent. Rather than pursuing remedies through proper
legal channels, Mr. Giwer has, by his own definition, harrassed
and engaged in conspiracy to harrass Rack Jite's service providers
in order to suppress the page in question as a shortcut. If he
is not able to convince a court that his complaint has legal merit,
then he was indeed engaging in the same kind of harrassment and
censorship campaign that he alleges was used against him.
Not a personal attack, just stating documented fact. Again, do please
check out the URLs cited above; wouldn't want Mr. Giwer to claim I am
taking things out of context to fool people. Not that he has any scruples
about doing that when it suits his purposes. He's edited posts of mine so
that he can reply to a very distorted version of what I said rather than
trying to address the whole argument, which he was clearly incapable of
rebutting.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:13 PDT 1996
Article: 49401 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Unscientific opinion poll - responses wanted
Date: 10 Jul 1996 05:47:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4rvu80$5pn@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4roveh$os4@access4.digex.net> <4rp7e3$s01@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rp7e3$s01@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
wrote a lot of outright lies, half-truths,
evasions, distortions, confessions and displays of abysmal ignorance, and
other assorted nonsense, wherein he asked one cogent question:
> Do you really think the lurkers are swallowing this?
Well, here's another one of those scientifically invalid opinion
polls. Hey, lurkers, speak up! Anyone out there swallowing Mr. Giwer's
lies? Has anyone missed my repeated documentation of them, or the 'lies'
folder on http://www.nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (or www.nizkor.eye.net) in Mr.
Giwer's directory under 'people'?
Twice in the last 24 hours, I posted a collection of Mr. Giwer's
self-contradictory statements about the censorship of Rack Jite's web
pages from Volant Turnpike, fully documented with DejaNews URLs. If you
missed it, I can email a copy to you. (Wouldn't want to spam.) Just ask.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:14 PDT 1996
Article: 49405 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:13:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4rvvp7$8i4@access4.digex.net>
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In article <4rvr4r$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 23:34:51 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>> The only thing I see wrong here is with your ability to read,
>>understand, and evaluate what you read. Zyklon will vary depending on
>>room size, concentration, and temperature. Witnesses will vary in their
>>estimates of times. Only a very stupid person would not take into
>>consideration these very simple points. You are not taking these very
>>simple points into consideration. The conclusion is left as exercise to
>>the reader.
>
>
> Sorry but the variations are from instantanious to two days with a
>second application and you know that. You have read all the crap about
>the kill times here.
I have read all your crap, yes. I don't recall _two_ days, perhaps
you'd care to post it? I recall one claim of the next day, from the
initial experiment, with most of the people dead. Obviously you are
ignorant of the concept of LDxx, where xx is the percentage of test
subjects killed by a given dose. And as usual you are taking outliers
>from the data points and giving them equal weight with the main cluster.
Completely dishonest, as you know.
>You also know that the time to death in the majority of the "eyewitness"
>testimonies vary from 10 to 20 minutes for both HCN and CO period, no
>questions asked.
>
> That makes them both equally lethal and you know that.
Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point.
Care to supply a quote where a witness - even one - said that death
occurred in ten minutes from CO in any of the Reinhard camps? Care to
supply a quote which said that it took 20 minutes to _die_ (not reopen the
doors, but _die_) from HCN in any of the Krema gassings? The majority of
the testimonies _I_ have seen give a time which is from Zyklon drop to
opening of the doors for removal of bodies. But for Kremas II and III,
the majority of that time is for the powered ventilation system to remove
the gas. And even for IV and V, this does not tell you if they left a
bunch of dead bodies sitting in the chamber for ten minutes or so to err
on the side of caution. And then in the Reinhard camps there were
testimonies that even after 30 minutes, which is the majority of what _I_
have seen, there were frequently people who were not quite dead and had to
be shot.
When you are ready to deal with the subject honestly do please let me
know.
Why do you lie so much? Are you admitting your intellect is too tiny
to beat a mere holohugger in debate without lying, deceptive editing,
half-truths, and deceptive word games? Or is this merely early-onset
Alzheimer's?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 12:39:47 PDT 1996
Article: 49448 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4ru2e1$ilk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net> <31E000D9.6947@unb.ca> <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>
>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>> > There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>>
>>> There may be bomb craters. There may be evidence of a fire. But
>>> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)? Or the intentionality
>>> of the fire? What physical evidence do you have for that? None, of
>>> course.
>
>>On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>
> Did god provide the bomb sight films?
Who put the caption on the films? How do you know what town is down
there? Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood, saying
"Dresden?"
And of course we would also have to ask if the films show the
firestorm allegedly caused by that bombing, or whether even if they do it
indicates a true causal connection rather than a coincidence involving
Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow.
Then of course we must ask if there is a documented chain of custody
on those films.
And what _were_ Steven Spielberg and the KGB doing on the day those
films were made, hmn?
So when are you going to get around to providing physical evidence of
this alleged allied firebombing of Dresden? I see none.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 12:39:48 PDT 1996
Article: 49466 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:49:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4rsksp$pe6@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ro0iv$ign@access4.digex.net> <4rs72d$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rs72d$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 05:38:39 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>Equinox wrote:
>
>>[nerve gas question of unclear intent deleted]
>
> There was no nerve gas question.
>
>>> It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing. I
>>>had no idea what gas was used. I had only heard about gassing.
>>>
>>> But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>>>likely agent.
>
>> Mr. Giwer has demonstrably misunderstood the descriptions.
>
> What is there about death in any time frame from instantaneous to 20
>minutes have I not understood?
The difference between "after a few minutes there was silence" and
"after some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the
gas chamber was opened." You said from this description that the
screaming went on for tens of minutes!
http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=7174330&server=dnserver.db96q1
How many times have I pointed this one out to you? You forgot it
_again_, didn't you?
Alec says you were better once. All I can say is, I certainly hope
so.
>>> When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>>>collapsed.
>
>> Mr. Giwer has misread so many things that it is not clear how he can
>>be capable of forming any valid opinion about any of this. He neither
>>understands nor remembers what he reads.
>
> When lacking in substance ...
Your illiteracy causes you to see problems where there are none. It
is you that has a problem with substance here.
Then there is your on-again, off-again understanding of the
relationships between temperature, concentration, room size, and time to
death when using Zyklon. Hell, I'd be damn suspicious if there _weren't_
variation in times. Then there's your complete lack of understanding of
how to recognize and deal with ambiguities in wording, and your cockamamie
idea that not mentioning something is the same as explicitly saying it
didn't happen.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 12:39:48 PDT 1996
Article: 49471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.mci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:27:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4s00ij$9vr@access4.digex.net>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com> <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net> <4rvtsr$p25@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4rvtsr$p25@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:35:22 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>># It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
>># professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever
>># the case may be,
>
>>Ah, that old inferiority complex kicks in. Perhaps you'll
>>clarify your statement about me being an "impersonating professor"?
>
> Of course, attack the messenger, not the message.
>
> It is so much easier.
>
Yes, that's exactly what Dr. Keren was pointing out in Tom Moran's
post. Neither Tom Moran nor Matt Giwer is capable of dealing with the
material, so they make unsubstantiated charges of lying - all the while
filling their posts with lies. But please do not believe me. A directory
on http://www.almanac.bc.ca (or www.nizkor.eye.net) is devoted to Mr.
Giwer's lies; you can see discussion many _messages_ he has posted which
are false.
All Mr. Giwer can do is _assert_ that his opponents are lying. He
can't _document_ it.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 17:15:03 PDT 1996
Article: 49496 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 10 Jul 1996 16:19:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <4s1383$k5r@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rvfvq$fla@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>
>>>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>>> > There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>>>>
>>>>> There may be bomb craters. There may be evidence of a fire. But
>>>>> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)? Or the intentionality
>>>>> of the fire? What physical evidence do you have for that? None, of
>>>>> course.
>>>
>>>>On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>>>by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>>>
>>> Did god provide the bomb sight films?
>
>> Who put the caption on the films? How do you know what town is down
>>there? Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood, saying
>>"Dresden?"
>
> You are playing games. Official records of reel nunbers assigned to
>particular operations exist.
And official records of the Auschwitz Bauleitung exist. File numbers,
etc. Sorry, there is no difference save in what you choose to question
and what you choose to accept. You know that.
You have seen the Dresden evidence yourself? When and where?
>> And of course we would also have to ask if the films show the
>>firestorm allegedly caused by that bombing, or whether even if they do it
>>indicates a true causal connection rather than a coincidence involving
>>Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow.
>
>> Then of course we must ask if there is a documented chain of custody
>>on those films.
>
>> And what _were_ Steven Spielberg and the KGB doing on the day those
>>films were made, hmn?
>
>> So when are you going to get around to providing physical evidence of
>>this alleged allied firebombing of Dresden? I see none.
>
> Sorry, Stone, you have made a terrible case.
"Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point."
Not one word you have written here establishes any link between the
bombing and the fire. And you know it. Lots of cities were bombed in
WWII. Why was Dresden so special?
> Were there the slightest
>fraction of the documentation of mass extermination gassing as there is
>for Dresden, you folks would trot it out and make it squeal.
And had Seelo"we come off, with the prospect of Bomber Harris standing
in the dock at the London War Crimes Tribunals, how much of this alleged
physical evidence of Allied war crimes - a film of a bombing run, which in
any event from your description sounds indistinguishable from thousands of
films of bombing runs of unbarbecued cities - would you have? None, of
course.
> But you folks have no such trail of physical evidence.
Assuming you have actually seen this film, which I doubt, at best you
have evidence of an ordinary bombing of a city you cannot identify, but
merely accept is Dresden with no personal verification of the captioning.
And you know it.
> I have outlined exactly what is equivalent but you folks can not find
>even one picture of anyone on a roof much less pouring anything into a
>hole. You folks can not find a single picture of the results of
>gassing while people are inside the "chamber" much less anything more
>seriously incriminating. And despite all of this the best you can
>provide is what you consider "equally damning" pictures of people in
>separate lines.
I never said they were equally damning. Why are you lying about what
I said?
All I am saying is that you have not yet presented sufficient physical
evidence of this alleged criminal firebombing of Dresden. And the
responses I have given you so far are exactly parallel to responses you
have given to evidence for a conclusion you do not choose to believe. You
know that.
> Give it up.
Handwaving to cover over the fact that you have only presented here
documentary (not physical) evidence of bombing of an unknown city, and
evidence of a burned city, but have presented no physical evidence to link
that bombing to the firestorm. Any honest and objective person reading
your post will admit that for all anyone can tell from what you have
written here, the film you describe here as evidence could have been an
ordinary bombing, not a firebombing.
You have been presented documentary evidence of planning for and tests
revealing the use of cyanide in the Kremas. You have been presented with
evidence of large numbers of deaths. You have told us that you have been
presented with no physical evidence linking the two, and that what is
described could have been for ordinary pesticidal delousing of a morgue,
not homicidal gassing.
The parallel is obvious to anyone but a Dresdenhugger like you.
There is no difference save in what evidence you choose to believe (or
what quantity of evidence you choose to believe, but the threshhold
quantity is entirely your arbitrary subjective decision) and what evidence
you choose to reject with unsupported assertions of forgery, false
captioning, morbid jokes in official documents, etc. I cannot change
that.
> You don't have jack.
Excuse me, I don't have to have jack. You are the one attempting to
show me physical evidence of the war crime firebombing of Dresden. You
have yet to do so. Indeed, from your surprisingly feeble responses so
far, it would appear that I hold all the aces.
> You are trying to play a game without a full deck.
As anyone can see, all I have done is call your Dresdenhugger bluff.
Not one word in your post describes anything different about this film
>from that of an ordinary bombing run that would enable the viewer to
distinguish between the two. And you know it.
So where is your physical evidence of a criminal firebombing of
Dresden? I still don't see it from your most recent post. You will have
to do better than this.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:10 PDT 1996
Article: 49501 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:36:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4s1epd$sqq@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qng0m$mqi@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4r7ihe$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article ,
wrote:
>In article <4r7ihe$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
>> I see, a 14 year old was considering publication and knew how to make
>> publication worthy changes.
Do you have a problem with that? I was ten years old when I helped my
father edit a small booklet on fishing with nightcrawlers, suggesting
wording changes for clarity and eliminating some clumsy phrasings. (To
clarify, the booklet was not by my father; he was editing and I helped.)
Of course the fact that you are fifty-one and still cannot correctly
interpret "after a few minutes there was silence" may have something to do
with your apparent skepticism here. But your egocentric view of what is
possible is your problem, not mine or Anne Frank's.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:11 PDT 1996
Article: 49520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 10 Jul 1996 17:48:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <4s18f5$olc@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ru3t8$jir@access5.digex.net> <4rvgij$eon@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rvgij$eon@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1996 13:12:08 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> I have been over this territory before. You have not been paying
>>>attention. There are records of the mission planning, the mission
>>>briefings,
>
>> Writing down testimony does not make it a document, remember? That
>>was your response about the letter to Rauff.
>
>> Perhaps you would like to quote from them where they say that the city
>>would be firebombed, not just bombed? Got a reference? I thought not.
>
>Sorry about that but it was announced in all the newspapers at the time
>that the intention was to cause a firestorm and the announcement was
>that it was successful. Made all the headlines. What have you missed?
Rather it is a question of what you have obviously missed. After a
number of terrorist bombings there have been multiple claims of credit.
Obviously they cannot all be correct, and in some cases the investigating
agencies have disbelieved all of the claims, which were only made for
propaganda purposes. Your ignorance of such matters is glaring. There
is nothing in what you have presented so far to rule out the possibility
that the Allies merely took advantage of a coincidence to undermine
German morale.
Oops. Excuse me. The celestial buzzer just sounded. Your newspaper
headlies (sic) are not physical evidence. They are testimony, and unsworn
at that. Therefore by your standards they are not evidence at all. But
you know that.
>> But even then, we would have to ask if this could not have been just a
>>morbid sense of humor? Got a chain of custody for those mission records?
>
> Yes.
Obviously making it up as you go. Please describe this chain of
custody. Where did you go to view those mission records? You _have_ seen
them personally, have you not? Remember, secondary sources are not
acceptable.
>>It is only one bombing mission out of many. It is an anomaly just as you
>>say the Vergasungskeller memo was an anomaly. Are we not required to look
>>for alternative explanations of anomalies like this? Have you done so?
>
>You would attempt to compare literally thousands of mission records and
>many press releases to one anomaly. You are playing a fools game.
Press releases?! Obviously you must believe everything that dribbles
out of whitehouse.gov. It is only one step from there to swallowing
stories of satanic child molestation.
As for thousands of mission records, it is not clear what you are
getting at here. You seem to be seriously confused. Allow me to correct
your ignorance. Your fellow Dresdenhuggers agree that there were only two
missions involved in the alleged criminal firebombing of Dresden, the
first of which did the majority of the damage. That is one mission
record, not thousands, and you have yet to describe what it is about that
mission record which distinguishes it from every other mission where no
barbecue was reported. And if your chain of custody for that one mission
record is damaged, you have nothing.
>>number reels of bomb site films associated with the mission,
>>>before and after reconnaisance pictures with associated reel numbers
>>>related to the mission.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc was still a fallacy last time I looked.
When were the "after" pictures taken? Two days after the mission? What
in those pictures rules out the possibility that Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow
didn't kick over a lantern to ignite a broken gas main ten minutes after
the last plane turned back for home? The bombing would have been a
contributing factor in that case, but that is not the same thing as a war
crime firebombing, as you know.
>>>There are inventory records of the bombs
>>>assigned to the mission.
Do you seriously expect anyone to believe those records prove anything
about where those bombs ended up? As you know, pilots returning to base
after an aborted mission had to drop their bombs in the Channel for safety
reasons.
You might as well say that inventory records of Zyklon in a camp with
lots of dead Jews and Gypsies are physical evidence that Jews and Gypsies
were gassed with that Zyklon. Only a holohugger would believe that one.
>>> All of it points to the smoking gun, physical evidence of aerial
>>>bombardment.
>>>
>>> Now where were you when I recited the above last time? Bad news feed?
>
>> Whee, there was aerial bombardment of many cities. If mission records
>>of bombings are sufficient evidence of firebombing, then every city in
>>Europe had a Dresden-style barbecue, obviously.
>
>> Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow is looking guiltier all the time.
>
> You are playing a fool's game which you should not have started.
Excuse me, good sir, but you are the brainless fish who just tried to
offer me press releases in response to my request for physical evidence.
No scientist would ever make such a stupid mistake. Sorry for pointing
that out.
> You have cider in your eye.
You are mistaking my cup for my eye. And the yellow liquid with which
you are filling it is not cider. See your eye doctor - perhaps that is
the cause of your significant reading disabilities.
Press releases. Hmph. Do please get back to me when you have some
physical evidence of the criminal firebombing of Dresden. Post hoc ergo
propter hoc fallacies and mission records indistinguishable from those of
bombing runs that did not start a serious barbecue do not qualify, as you
know.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIGGER COWARDS
Date: 9 Jul 1996 16:35:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4rufr7$smd@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DF89E4.1F72@hkabc.net> <31e248a6.3892754@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31e248a6.3892754@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>Doctor JJ wrote:
>
>>NIGGER COWARDS
>>
>>by
>>Doctor J.J.
>
> This guy could be a 'plant'.
Quite a few people seem to think you're close to being in a persistent
vegetative state yourself, Tommy. "Couch potato," judging by the research
skills you've demonstrated so far in matters such as the menorah case.
>In the event he isn't, I would point
>out he uses the word "coward" and signs with a alias.
A lot of your friends sign with aliases. Haven't you noticed?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Back by popular request
Date: 11 Jul 1996 03:09:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4s29c4$mac@access4.digex.net>
References: <4s1l9f$idi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4s1l9f$idi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> The testimony of Moshe Lundelthal
.... alias Matt Giwer, who earlier teased us that he had made this
one up out of whole cloth ...
>[...] I wished myself dead for being alive and
>found solace in knowing my wish could not be granted. I loathed
>myself every minute of the day and tormented myself by night.
>
> I learned that hell is being alive when I should be dead.
Interesting. (With no apologies whatsoever to Tom Moran.)
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:13 PDT 1996
Article: 49601 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Antisemitic in the USA
Date: 11 Jul 1996 03:16:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4s29ns$me4@access4.digex.net>
References: <4s1phi$2jm@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4s1phi$2jm@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> It is interesting to note what antisemitic things the rest of the world
>can say.
>
> For instance the 7/10/96 ITN Network News attributes Net'n'Yahoo's warm
>reception at the White House and standing ovations in Congress despite
>his announcement of intentions to violate all previous peace agreements
>to the power ot the Jewish lobby in the US, noting it is an election
>year.
>
> It is also noted that no major US media noted the reason for this lack
>of condemnation of the change of policy.
>
> It is to be noted that some time in the next four years Israel will
>"begin to reduce" its dependence on the $1500 per person economic
>subsidy provided by the US.
And the relevance of this to a discussion of revisionism, the purpose
of this group which you wanted to get back on track is ... ?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:14 PDT 1996
Article: 49607 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 11 Jul 1996 03:55:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4s2c0s$mu6@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E2E11D.3AAB@unb.ca> <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 19:45:49 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote:
>>>
>>> >Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> >> > There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>> >>
>>> >> There may be bomb craters. There may be evidence of a fire. But
>>> >> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)? Or the intentionality
>>> >> of the fire? What physical evidence do you have for that? None, of
>>> >> course.
>>>
>>> >On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>> >by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>>>
>>> Did god provide the bomb sight films?
>
>>Obviously faked. Why would anyone take pictures or make any kind
>>of notes about a crime they were in the progress of committing?
>>Did at any time those films show a big sign saying "Welcome to
>>Dresden"? Can you produce one of these alledged bombers?
>
>>(See, it's easy to use the Revisionist Method!)
>
> However that is not the "revisionist method" in the least.
>
> The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>pictures of gassing being presented. No pictures at all. NOTHING in
>the way of physical evidence.
No, the revisionist method is to reject all such pictures and evidence
as being faked or improperly/questionably captioned or not showing the
cause of death of the dead bodies in the picture or not proving that live
people were in the room at the same time as the cyanide whose traces still
linger in the walls. Point to the cyanide traces, they don't show people
in the room. Show pictures of dead people, they don't indicate that
cyanide was the cause of death. Round and round and round we go....
Show a document naming a "Vergasungskeller," and it is rejected as a
forgery without any forensic testing being offered. (Burden of proof is
on the one claiming forgery.) Show a letter talking about gassing vans,
_confirmed by the recipient of the letter in a deposition given in Chile
where the recipient was apparently safe from prosecution_, and the
response is to raise a specious complaint about translation accuracy and
then develop amnesia about it.
Then the revisionist method is to _pretend_ that because they have
raised a bunch of objections of this nature, that NO physical evidence
(which they have seen but rejected as being insufficiently probative) has
been presented.
But as we have seen, many of these objections could also be raised
about physical evidence of such things as the alleged criminal firebombing
of Dresden. Mr. Giwer's answers to a number of such criticisms (other
than mere assertion and handwaving) have not yet appeared on my server as
of this writing.
> You should start paying more attention.
You should stop lying. Who do you think you are fooling besides
yourself? Care to stop weaseling about the letter about gassing vans or
gas vans, take your pick, which Rauff confirmed receiving in his 1971
deposition in Chile? Physical evidence corroborated by testimony. You
asked for it and you have been presented with it. You ran away from it
and now you dishonestly pretend you have never heard of it. Deal with it
honestly for a change.
But you will never do that.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 11 Jul 1996 04:30:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79360 alt.revisionism:49615 talk.politics.european-union:4760
In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:03:11 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger
>Skok) wrote:
>
>>In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>> THE AMERICAN WAY
>>
>>> In the USA, hydrogen cyanide gas has been used for the executions. The
>>> procedure, as laid down by law (to effect the death of the convict without
>>> endangering the prison staff!) is as follows:
>>> Firstly, the convict is strapped down in a chair in a small chamber.
>>> Secondly, the chamber is sealed.
>>> Thirdly, sodium cyanid crystals are poured into a container of
>>> sulphuric acid. This quickly releases large quantities of hydrogen cyanide
>>> gas which kills the convict within a matter of seconds.
>>> Fourthly, the chamber is then flushed with ammonia gas which reacts with
>>> the hydrogen cyanid gas to form harmless crystals.
>>> Fifthly, indicators are used to check that the chamber is no longer lethal.
>>> Sixthly, attendants (wearing gas masks and protective clothing) enter the
>>> chamber through an air-lock and brush the convict's hair and clothing to
>>> dislodge any gas which may still adhering to them.
>
>
>>Fine, you did it, Ole. That is exactly the argument presented by
>>Leuchter, who certainly knows how Americans murder their
>>convicts, since he designs gas-chambers and other killing
>>machines for a living.
>
>>The descriptions of the "American Way" are probably correct. At
>>least I don't see anything that I can contradict. I have not heard
>>of the use of Ammonia gas - I suppose you're talking of NH3 - being
>>used to flush the chamber and I don't know whether the implied
>>chemical reaction between it and HCN is possible but that's not
>>so very important actually. For the basic flaw of your reasoning
>>is that it assumes that current American standards for safety at
>>the workplace had been applied to the prisoners who had to drag
>>the corpses of their unfortunate brothers and sisters in suffering
>>out of the gas chambers.
>
>>Of course the American State governments having gas chambers
>>operated in their prisons go to very great lengths to protect the
>>guards operating the chambers. They don't want to get sued by
>>some disgruntled guard over having suffered cyanide poisoning
>>and now not being able to smoke without coughing, or something
>>like that.
>
> On the flip side of the news, according to absolutely reliable and
>unquestionable eyewitnesses, there was no concern whatsoever about
>anyone dying and no reports of any of them doing so.
>
> Further we have clear claims by the holohuggers that this gas was
>exhausted from an uncertain number of "little chimneys" approximately at
>ground level without regard to who might have been down wind of it.
>
> The problem with your explanation is that it is totally your creation
>and not supported in any manner by the eyewitnesses.
The problem with your response is that the revisionist writer
Friedrich Berg has admitted that the delousing chambers at Auschwitz did
not have any high chimneys either. Apparently you believe that everyone
in the neighborhood was in danger of dropping dead after a delousing. Yet
there seems to have been no concern about anyone dying from delousing of
clothing and no reports of anyone doing so. Zyklon was also used to
delouse barracks which had no chimneys; did you think they had to evacuate
the whole camp? Just how close do you think the Kremas were to anything
else? You have no idea, do you? Why do you not correct your terminal
ignorance before discussing these matters?
Then there is also your idiotic belief that you have seen all the
testimonies and your even more idiotic notion that you have accurately
understood and remembered them, which anyone here can see you have not and
can not. Care to try "after a few minutes there was silence" again? Now,
did the witness say the screaming went on for "tens of minutes" as you
earlier offered that testimony to support?
Give it up. Alec is right. You are not intellectually capable of
dealing with what is presented to you. If you had half the mind you
delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
deceive and evade the way you do.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 16:14:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4s12vc$ju4@access5.digex.net>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com> <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>As I said, I prefer to wait and see *exactly* why the site was
>>closed. Ok, big guy? As I said, if it's *only* because of the
>>so-called "revisionist" views, I strongly protest this action.
>>
> It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
>professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever the case
>may be, to come out and downright endorse the censorship. Any
>statement he says in support of free speech I see as just a tacit
>approval to give the illusion he is for free speech.
> My personal opinion based on my long time experience of
>witnessing the factions constant barrage against open debate about the
>Holocaust or Zionism.
It would be a tactical error for the likes of Tom Moran, or the serial
rape-murderer, child molester, and flagrant jaywalker hiding out under the
pseudonym Tom Moran, whichever the case may be, to come out and downright
endorse mass murder of all Jews. Any statement he says in support of
allowing Jews to live one could see as just a tacit approval to give the
illusion he is against genocide.
My personal opinion based on my long time experience of witnessing
Tommy's constant barrage about all the terrible things done by Jews.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:16 PDT 1996
Article: 49638 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The PSNW "contract"
Date: 11 Jul 1996 02:57:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4s28l6$m1v@access4.digex.net>
References: <4s1iq3$ftq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4s1iq3$ftq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>Terms and Conditions of
> Protosource Network usage.
>
> Following are the terms of usage for all customers of The
>Protosource Network.
> By using The Protosource Network, you agree that you
>accept these terms and
> conditions. We recommend that all users read this.
>
>Use of any information obtained via
>The Protosource Network is at your own risk. The
>Protosource Network
>specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy or quality of
>information obtained through its services.
Well, there you have it. They are not responsible for the accuracy of
the information contained in their terms of service. :-/
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 10:18:23 PDT 1996
Article: 49665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 11 Jul 1996 10:48:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4s348h$p5r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <4s2lih$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s2lih$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 11 Jul 1996 04:30:26 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:03:11 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger
>>>Skok) wrote:
[discussion of safety measures in American gas chambers deleted for space]
>>>>Of course the American State governments having gas chambers
>>>>operated in their prisons go to very great lengths to protect the
>>>>guards operating the chambers. They don't want to get sued by
>>>>some disgruntled guard over having suffered cyanide poisoning
>>>>and now not being able to smoke without coughing, or something
>>>>like that.
>>>
>>> On the flip side of the news, according to absolutely reliable and
>>>unquestionable eyewitnesses, there was no concern whatsoever about
>>>anyone dying and no reports of any of them doing so.
>>>
>>> Further we have clear claims by the holohuggers that this gas was
>>>exhausted from an uncertain number of "little chimneys" approximately at
>>>ground level without regard to who might have been down wind of it.
>>>
>>> The problem with your explanation is that it is totally your creation
>>>and not supported in any manner by the eyewitnesses.
>
>
>> The problem with your response is that the revisionist writer
>>Friedrich Berg has admitted that the delousing chambers at Auschwitz did
>>not have any high chimneys either.
>
> I speak for myself.
>
> Tell it to him.
Your physical evidence of chimneys on the delousing chambers? None,
of course.
And of course there is the rest of my post which you edited out
without warning and without answering. Clearly your are unable to deal
with it.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 10:18:24 PDT 1996
Article: 49674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:07:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4s1d2r$rn7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rqf7a$cd7@access1.digex.net> <4rt1ud$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rt1ud$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 04:00:42 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>>You don't even realize that most men know as much about how to scream as
>>>how to yodel.
>
>> I was able to yodel the first time I tried it though I admit that I
>>might be unusual. Screaming is much easier.
>
>> Mr. Giwer is clearly projecting his own handicaps upon other people.
>>Unless he thinks the pitch is significant, and that what men do ought to
>>be called "yelling?" Well, Mr. Giwer has already amply demonstrated the
>>"paupacy" of his skills in the English language. What's one more example?
>
> You are still playing the fool on this one in your pretension that you
>actually know women whose speaking voice is in the frequency range of a
>scream.
1. scream \'skre-m\ vb [ME scremen; akin to OHG scri-an to scream] 1a1: to
voice a sudden sharp loud cry 1a2: to produce harsh high tones 1b: to
make or move with a noise resembling a scream 2: to speak or write with
intense hysterical expressions 3: to produce a vivid startling effect :
to utter with or as if with a scream
2. scream n 1: a loud sharp penetrating cry or noise 2: one that provokes
mirth
Only one of the above definitions says anything about pitch, and even
that only does so with the vague term "high" which is relative. Definition
2 of the verb can easily be performed by men or women. Your continued
illiteracy is noted, or is it just that you are playing a fool's game by
pretending that the witness must be using the definition of "scream" that
you choose? Is this juvenile nonsense the best a 163 IQ type can do?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 10:18:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49680 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's FTP Archive
Date: 10 Jul 1996 18:49:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4s1c1m$r19@access5.digex.net>
References: <01bb6db8.2e18ae00$afded3c6@default> <01bb6e66.c4ccdb60$83cfd3c6@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <01bb6e66.c4ccdb60$83cfd3c6@default>,
Duncan Coons <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
>...
>> "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> If you feel you've been erroneously labelled as pseudonymous, I'll talk
>> it over with Ken McVay. The first question that comes to mind is, why
>> are you posting from Netcom's Toronto site but giving a Compuserve email
>> address?
>
>Keep me pseudonymous; I really don't care. The explanation, though, is
>incredibly simple. Suspicion must be an occupational hazard in the
>anti-hate business. If I post in future, perhaps I'll appear as John
>Smith, just to make things easy.
Sad to say, there is a lot of forgery going on, and it is not limited
to one side or even to those of an ideological bent - commercial spammers
sometimes do it to avoid taking the heat. There is a poster, most likely
marduk@ix.netcom.com, who is forging articles through Netcom's Toronto
site which appear to the careless reader as if they came from
mgiwer@ix.netcom.com. (The Toronto posting host is one of the signs that
flags the forgery.) I have documented reams of lies by Mr. Giwer, but
still I "flag" the forgeries by following up to them with a warning
whenever I see them.
I further note that your article ID does not match either of the two
sources. To anyone familiar with the 'net, a discrepancy this blatant is
prima facie evidence of something highly irregular; the headers indicate
that the article cannot be authenticated as coming from the ostensible
poster without sending an email to that address asking for confirmation.
What _is_ your incredibly simple explanation of a CompuServe address, a
Netcom Toronto posting host, and an article ID that simply ends in
"@default?" If you were someone travelling who uses a Netcom account as a
backup to a CIS primary, and set your sender ID to your preferred mail
address, I'd still expect a Netcom article ID.
Posted and emailed with Cc: to Jamie McCarthy.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 11:55:31 PDT 1996
Article: 49689 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.radio.org!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 11 Jul 1996 01:46:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4s24fc$leb@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rvgac$eon@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31E4248E.28E5@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <31E4248E.28E5@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:40:16 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>> ># Did god provide the bomb sight films?
>>
>> >But "revisionists" always say "photographs can be faked".
>> >Surely, so can films.
>>
>> I am aware of no pictures that any holohugger has presented that
>> have ever been subjected to the claim that they are faked.
Mr. Giwer's ignorance is nobody's problem but his own.
>> Perhaps you can
>> provide a source for this groundless claim of yours?
Interesting how Mr. Giwer repeatedly projects his own lack of
knowledge onto other people.
>> I thought not.
At least he gives an honest explanation of the reason for this
juvenile behavior.
>Try looking up the name "Butz, Arthur R" sometime. I understand he is
>mentioned on the web site that also has that "Tale of Two Gassings"
>page you so kindly posted the HTML code for.
See also Walendy, Udo.
Actually, see also Buchanan, Pat. This is one that Mr. Giwer should
be aware of if his memory were not like that of the protagonist in Gene
Wolfe's "Soldier of the Mist."
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 15:38:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49728 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!tomato.dussco.com!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:18:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4s001g$90n@access4.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rt1ug$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4rvr9m$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rvr9m$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:31:36 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>># Evidence of that was posted here in the "greater part of"
>># technical report on it, noting that "greater part of" is a
>># technical term for "half of" in english
>
>>Excuse me? "Greater part" means "half"? Does the greater
>>part of English speakers agree to this?
>
>># indicating an exponentially decaying release. That
>># post lead to 6-12 hours as the 99% release time.
>
>>No, the article specifically noted that, even at below zero
>>temperatures, there was no residue of HCN after "an hour, or
>>at most two".
>
> Not only was it your post, but you are lying about it.
>
> SOP for a holohugger.
"Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point." - Matt Giwer
No documentation to support Mr. Giwer's charge, as usual.
I guess this is the best a 163 IQ type can do. How very sad.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 18:47:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:40:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4s3sda$f5p@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvs3f$ksu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s1721$p99@news.enter.net> <4s2j54$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s2j54$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
[stuff about Gerstein, which I concede is not physical evidence, snipped]
>On 10 Jul 1996 21:24:17 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> On 9 Jul 1996 12:12:34 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
>>
>>> >We should start at the beginning: what precisely do you mean by "physical
>>> >evidence"? That is, can you either provide a definition, or provide
>>> >an example of "phsyical evidence" for another historical event that we
>>> >all agree took place (say, the Battle of Gettysburg)?
>
>>> If you have a bad news feed complain.
>>
>>> I have stated this many times.
>
>> You most certainly have not. You have told us that you know what it
>>is and theat everybody else should realize what you are talking about.
>
> Just how do you miss posts directed to you? You mus really have a
>shitty news feed. Do you want to keep denying this forever?
[selections from repost edited for brevity follow:]
>>> What can be more clear than that?
>
>> A definition of what you consider "physical evidence" for starters.
[snip]
>> Please note that I am not requesting an argument that convinces
>>anyone of the accuracy of you opinion but merely a clear statement of what
>>it is.
>
> A smoking gun is usually considered physical evidence.
>
> How about one picture of bodies inside a gas chamber after gassing as
>soon as the doors are opened? How about about a long line of people
>carrying bodies out of a building? How about a picture of someone
>pouring a can of something into a building from a hole in the roof?
>
> How about any photographs of the actual gassing process that corresponds
>to the "testimony" but excluding people in lines upon arrival and bodies
>that do not indicate a cause of death? How a significant fraction of
>those 2000-3000 tons of bone fragments around A-B?
>
> And if one wishes to invoke secrecy as a reason for no pictures then one
>needs to produce specific orders against taking the kinds of pictures
>that I describe. There appears to have been no orders against taking
>the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are excludable as
>being nonspecific to the gassing issue.
>
> Now you could go one step further and produce first the design
>specifications for a large scale gas chamber, that means technical
>specs, not simple drawings for inference, and then show the building you
>folks have found in fact matches those specifications.
>
> At one point I suggested physical descriptions that matched the layout
>and construction of the building complexes that match the designated
>buildings. The best that were posted in response produced more
>mismatches than they produced matches.
>
> I have no idea what more to tell you folks about what constitutes
>physical evidence. It appears quite obvious to me.
The problem, of course, is that Mr. Giwer was asked for a
_definition_, but he played bait-and-switch and gave _examples_ which are
not the same thing. This allows him to make it up as he goes, rejecting
anything inconvenient as long as it does not _exactly_ correspond to one
of his examples.
For example, I have mentioned a letter from Becker to Rauff, which
talked about gassing vans or gas vans. If Mr. Giwer's responses in the
Dresden thread are any indication, he accepts in principle that documents
can be physical evidence. The relevant question here is authenticity.
This letter escapes the "forgeries, all Soviet forgeries" brush because
the recipient Rauff, in a 1972 deposition in Chile, confirmed receiving
such a letter from Becker. This is testimony supporting physical
evidence, which is the procedure Mr. Giwer had demanded.
Mr. Giwer's first response was to sidetrack the discussion into the
irrelevant area of whether "Gaswagen" could legitimately be
translated as "gassing van" rather than "gas van." (I was trying to get
around the ambiguity between gasoline and poison gas which is not present
in German.)
Now he has amnesia about that document, which as far as I can tell
_ought_ to be up to Mr. Giwer's standards. So why is not quite obvioius
to him? It is not a lot of physical evidence but one authenticated piece
is all it takes. He has not and will not address it honestly. Instead he
keeps repeating "Zero physical evidence of gassing" like a mantra.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 18:47:05 PDT 1996
Article: 49752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 11 Jul 1996 02:17:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4s26af$lnq@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rt1tg$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4rvhm6$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
In article <4rvhm6$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:15:02 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>># I have pointed to the available physical evidence that
>># does not need one word of testimony to support the event.
>
>>Such physical evidence exists for the Holocaust as well.
>>But you must know that.
>
> You know it does not.
>
> There is not one picture of anyone on the roof of any building much
>less pouring in anything. But you know that.
And if there were, you would point out that it does not prove that
there is anyone inside the room into which the person is pouring
something, nor that the thing being poured is Zyklon. But you know that.
> There is not one picture of any result from any "gas chamber" when
>opened but you know that.
There is indeed a picture of a bunch of dead bodies being burned in
the open air outside one of the Kremas, taken from inside the Krema, but
you would merely point out that a picture of a bunch of dead bodies does
not tell you how they died, and that nothing in the picture allows a
confident identification of the site as being Birkenau. Even if they were
recognizably inside one of the underground rooms labeled "Leichenkeller"
in the construction drawings you would object that the picture cannot be
distinguished from one of typhus victims in an ordinary morgue. But you
know that.
> There is sworn testimony of flesh and clothing forming gelatinous
>masses after exposure to HCN but you know that.
There is no sworn testimony that the latter was the cause of the
former, and you have also dishonestly and deceptively exaggerated the
testimony in paraphrase, but you know that. Why do you have to deceive
and distort? It would seem you know your intellect is too feeble to
allow you to win if you debated honestly.
> Your fucking mass gassing is a sham and you DO know that.
Still waiting for physical evidence of the criminal Dresden
firebombing that cannot be answered with one of the objections you have
raised to physical evidence offered for gassing and you DO know that.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 07:00:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:56:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4s3tak$fr1@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rkrf4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rvjfg$dva@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31E3D49C.3F8F@gryn.org> <4s1u1a$l2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s1u1a$l2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:04:44 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9 Jul 1996 02:12:32 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>
>>> This is amazing.
>>>
>>> An attorney admitting that the fundamental standards of evidence
>>> required in a capital crime can not be produced because it never
>>> existed.
>
>>This is the level that you've sunk to?!?! This is not the Matt Giwer who
>>took weeks to get nuked in Soapbox!
>
> Your memories are quite different than mine.
Mr. Giwer's memories of discussions are quite different from
DejaNews's memories of discussions. Mr. Giwer's memories of what he said
sometimes conflict with Mr. Giwer's earlier memories of what he said. We
have THREE conflicting true truths from him about who did what about Rack
Jite's web pages on Volant Turnpike and why.
If I thought all eyewitness memories were as unreliable as Mr. Giwer's
- 75% probability of significant distortion in under a week, from what
I've seen - I might change my mind about how much weight to give
eyewitness testimony. (I do accept it, but not unquestioningly, and I
give different classes of observations different weights. This concept
has apparently never occurred to Mr. Giwer - he seems to think that one
must either accept every word or dismiss every word as unreliable.)
[remainder deleted as I'm sure Mr. Giwer will tell me that Alec can speak
for himself]
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 07:00:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49852 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kigam.re.kr!gape.elim.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rampant Irony Deficiency Alert
Date: 10 Jul 1996 18:08:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4s19kv$pfj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qlkul$e8c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4rt7us$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ru24d$8t0@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4rvuqd$gcj@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rvuqd$gcj@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1996 16:41:49 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
>
>>Mr. Giwer continues to demonstrate his devotion to rational, invective-
>>free argument.
>
> That is the way it goes.
>
> You have a bitch hiding behind female immunity and men like you trying
>to earn points to screw her should you be in her part of the world.
>
> This is really very transparent.
>
> We live in a sex neutral world.
I don't know what world you live in, but most people I know are not
neutral to sex. Sour grapes because you aren't getting any?
> Sorry about that.
>
> Grow up and learn what is going on.
Trolling, of course.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 11:10:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news2.interlog.com!news.neca.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:45:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4s3smj$fdj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvs3f$ksu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s1721$p99@news.enter.net> <31e504e3.58973325@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31e504e3.58973325@news.zilker.net>,
Mike Curtis wrote:
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> On 9 Jul 1996 12:12:34 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
>>
>>> >We should start at the beginning: what precisely do you mean by "physical
>>> >evidence"? That is, can you either provide a definition, or provide
>>> >an example of "phsyical evidence" for another historical event that we
>>> >all agree took place (say, the Battle of Gettysburg)?
>>
>>> If you have a bad news feed complain.
>>
>>> I have stated this many times.
>>
>
>This is his answer in a thread called "Discussion with Giwer begins?"
>
>Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Boy are you guys suckers.
>
>
>> You most certainly have not. You have told us that you know what it
>>is and theat everybody else should realize what you are talking about.
>>
>> --YFE
It is true that he has made his statement many times, but it still
does not answer the mail. He was asked for a definition, but all he gave
were examples. Not giving a clear definition enables him to make it up as
he goes. Once he gives a definition, he sets a standard he can be held
to, or at least it can be seen as unreasonable.
We went through the same thing with Greg Raven. He did not want to
set a well-defined standard of proof so that he could continue to move the
goalposts - in effect, what he was trying to do was surreptitiously play
both defense attorney and judge.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 11:10:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 12:52:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4s5vrk$1jg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s4f9n$8c@news1.io.org> <4s50lm$g8d@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s50lm$g8d@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 12 Jul 1996 03:03:19 GMT, alec@gryn.org@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>>In <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>> The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>>>pictures of gassing being presented. No pictures at all. NOTHING in
>>>the way of physical evidence.
>
>>"There are no fakes, therefore it didn't happen".
>
>>This is logic?!?!
>
> Obviously it is not but that is not what I said, so why beat a straw
>man?
Why should you be the only one allowed to do that? And your writing
is significantly poorer than the writing you misread.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 14:02:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49899 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:09:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4s3qis$dpi@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> Some holohugging idiot gave me the reverse of the "cider in your eye"
>challenge.
>
> Were I looking for suckers, I should have said "I can prove the fire
>bombing of Dresden to standards that do not exist for massive gassings."
>But I did not.
>
> Rather first some fool challenged me to prove WW II occurred and I
>ignored the foolish challenge. Next another (or the same) fool
>challenged me to prove the fire bombing of Dresden occurred.
>
> First I changed the ground rules from proof to the evidence. Proof is
>for mathematics, not for the human condition.
>
> Then came the asshole holohuggers playing their ancient games.
Here comes Matt Giwer, playing the ancient game of posting away from
the thread in which he is getting shellacked in the hope that I won't
notice.
The thread is "AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT" and there is quite a
bit of unanswered mail piling up there for Mr. Giwer. Why doesn't he go
answer it rather than huffing and puffing over here (and not showing any
evidence to back up his claims)?
> First they claimed with transparent falsity that Dresden was solely
>based upon testimony as is their holocaust.
Multiple falsehoods in one sentence, not bad. I certainly never said
that, and Mr. Giwer has been shown physical evidence time and time again.
The issue is not whether it is physical evidence, but whether it is
_sufficient_ evidence.
>Next they claimed that one document of questionable origin was equal to
>thousands of documents and press releases regarding the raid.
_Thousands_ of documents about that _one_ raid? Making it up as he
goes. And there he goes again, mentioning press releases when the subject
is physical evidence and its sufficiency. No self-respecting scientist
would ever make that mistake.
> Finally they muddled down into mush of addressing nothing of any
>particular interest but still maintaining their garbage is equivalent to
>thousands of bureaucratic records documenting a never denied event.
>
> Holohuggers are very foolish.
The only fool I see here is Mr. Giwer, thinking he can do some spin
doctoring without my noticing. Check out "AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS
GUILT" and see how well you think the status of that thread matches Mr.
Giwer's description of it.
And the really ironic thing is that within the same day he told Jamie
McCarthy not to change the thread name. But Jamie left the References:
line intact; Mr. Giwer's professed inability to follow the thread
indicates either a brain-dead newsreader or a brain-dead user of the
newsreader.
Not only did Mr. Giwer talk about the thread with a different thread
name here, he removed the References: line to guarantee it was
disconnected. A sure sign that he's running scared, hoping to get in his
licks without my noticing. I guess that's the best a 163 IQ type can do.
And it's so feeble that he couldn't even get a job in the Clinton
administration.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 14:02:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49900 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 15:52:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4s6ae4$9eb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79532 alt.revisionism:49900 talk.politics.european-union:4830
In article <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>,
Stefan Schneider wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net says...
>lotsaspam deleted
>> Give it up. Alec is right. You are not intellectually capable of
>>dealing with what is presented to you. If you had half the mind you
>>delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
>>deceive and evade the way you do.
>Learn a little about chemistry. Then retry. See Article (s.c.g) 80416 for
>further information.
>NO regards
I made no claims about chemistry whatsoever, so it is very difficult
to see what you think I need to learn about it. I am merely pointing out
that the delousing chambers at Birkenau did not, even according to a
revisionist, have the extensive safety measure of the American gas
chambers. And the rest of my observation was that Matt Giwer, the person
I was addressing cannot read well - something I have ample evidence for.
Again, nothing to do with chemistry. So I don't know what problem you
could possibly have with anything I wrote.
If you wish to refer me to an article you will have to give me a
proper reference. The article number 80416 is valid for your news server
only. Proper reference to an article is by author, subject, date, and
message ID - yours, for example, is <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, not
98258 which also appeared at the top of my screen when I started reading
your article.
Please retry.
Posted and emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access4.digex.net Sat Jul 13 11:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 49950 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 11 Jul 1996 04:46:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4s2f0n$ogc@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rfc3a$ie8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
One word with regard to the "suffocating cough:" remember that until
late in the war, Zyklon contained not only cyanide but a lachrymogen as a
warning indicator to let people know in the event of a leak - cyanide is
not as clearly noticeable. The cough may have been caused by residual
lachrymogen, which to be effective would have to be detectable before the
cyanide developed lethal levels, and persist as long as the cyanide was in
the area.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Jul 13 11:00:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Back by popular request
Date: 12 Jul 1996 01:16:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4s4n3p$arq@access1.digex.net>
References: <4s1l9f$idi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article ,
Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>> The testimony of Moshe Lundelthal
[Discussion of the last time Mr. Giwer posted his fabrication deleted]
>So...what WAS your purpose in re-posting this, Mr. Giwer? Most of us
>who've followed the group for any length of time recognize it for what it
>is.
He judges everything by his own standards - and it seems he can
scarcely remember anything for more than a week. I think he really
expects that everyone else forgot about it by now.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 13 13:27:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 12:49:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <4s5vm5$1e0@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s200r$2ag@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E5281C.27A5@gryn.org> <4s466v$m9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s466v$m9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:13:16 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>>NO! NO! NO! Where are the actual films of the bombs falling? The fire
>>itself? The people burning alive?
>
> Are you saying there were no bomb camera films? No reconnaisance
>photos? How strange that they would conduct a bomb raid without such
>standard practices.
In other words you have _not_ seen those films and do not know what
was in them.
>Burning people may not have been filmed but with
>pictures of the fire storm and with burnt bodies found where the
>firestorm was, one can possibly rule out suicide.
>
>>People don't "Glow Orange and Vanish", Matt - so it never happened?
>
> But as you see, the physical evidence that exists around Dresden does
>not require a single eyewitness statement to reconstruct what happened.
According to what you have presented so far, you are wrong. I will
try to write this very slowly and simply. See if you can clean your
glasses and follow the discussion this time.
You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of
cyanide use in the Kremas. There are traces still detectable in the
walls. There is a letter from Topf (signatures of both Prufer and Sander
plus enough stamps to send an elephant by airmail quite visible) about
cyanide detectors for the Kremas. Physical evidence.
You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of dead
bodies at Auschwitz during the same time frame that there was cyanide in
use there. Crematoria. Ashes and bone chips - not as many documented
tons as you asked to see, but lots of 'em.
Yet you _do_ dispute the existence of physical evidence for cyanide
gassing. You do not need to explain why; I know.
Now. Pay attention.
You have presented physical evidence for the bombing of Dresden. I do
not dispute that. I will even accept that the planes referred to in those
mission records did the bombing rather than turn back from cowardice with
an agreement to hush it up, with the Soviets really carrying out the
bombing.
You have presented physical evidence that about the same time, there
was a major fire in Dresden. I do not dispute that.
However, London and Chicago tell us that one can have a major fire
without bombing. So bombing was not a necessary condition for the Dresden
fire.
And your thousands of mission records tell you that sortie after
sortie was flown without giving a whole new meaning to the phrase "toast
of the town." So bombing is not a sufficient condition for the Dresden
fire.
The bombing would almost certainly have knocked out the water system
and a lot of firefighting equipment and firefighters, making it impossible
to fight any fires that may have started in the town (from _any_ cause)
and leaving them to spread uncontrolled as they would not have under
ordinary circumstances. But ....
Now, Mr. Scientist, do you finally realize what physical evidence you
have consistently failed to present? Remember, post hoc ergo propter hoc
is a logical fallacy.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:21:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4s6c4r$alr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s2c0s$mu6@access4.digex.net> <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 11 Jul 1996 03:55:08 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
[snip]
>>> The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>>>pictures of gassing being presented. No pictures at all. NOTHING in
>>>the way of physical evidence.
>
>> No, the revisionist method is to reject all such pictures and evidence
>>as being faked or improperly/questionably captioned
>
> Only the latter and then not improperly but creatively captioned.
Your gross ignorance is not my fault. Get off your lazy butt and into
a library. See Walendy, Udo: "Forged War Crimes Malign the German
Nation." He called the resistance photo of pit burning at Birkenau a
painting, apparently because of the atrocious printing in the book in
which he viewed it. But Pressac has a much better printing of the same
photo.
> We already have agreement that damning pictures were not permitted so
>there can be no such pictures.
What brilliant logic. Drug dealing is not permitted so there can be
no drug dealers. Quite pathetic.
No, there are such pictures taken in violation of orders - but of
course a photograph cannot conclusively show the cause of death.
>or not showing the
>>cause of death of the dead bodies in the picture or not proving that live
>>people were in the room at the same time as the cyanide whose traces still
>>linger in the walls. Point to the cyanide traces, they don't show people
>>in the room. Show pictures of dead people, they don't indicate that
>>cyanide was the cause of death. Round and round and round we go....
>
> But then we have agree that pictures of the "gassed dead" were
>prohibited so they do not exist.
If you believe that everyone always obeys orders you have a lot of
growing up to do. Get serious.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50114 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:26:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4s6cde$atu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org> alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) writes:
>In <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> Some holohugging idiot gave me the reverse of the "cider in your eye"
>>challenge.
>>
>Matt, you lost that one. This is your way of trying to make a loss look like
>a victory.
>
>Pity.
>
>>
>> Rather first some fool challenged me to prove WW II occurred and I
>>ignored the foolish challenge. Next another (or the same) fool
>>challenged me to prove the fire bombing of Dresden occurred.
>
>Why? If you wanted to show him up, why did you refuse to argue on his rules?
MY rules?! Cute, Alec. You shouldn't tease Matt like that. He
doesn't even realize that he was arguing on his _own_ rules.
>> First they claimed with transparent falsity that Dresden was solely
>>based upon testimony as is their holocaust.
>
>You have presented no physical evidence.
I am confident that he has never seen the physical evidence he has
cited and is only _assuming_ it was there. But even after accepting his
"gentleman's agreement" that what he claims does exist and he is
describing it accurately, there is one thing he needs to present to seal
the case. And he has not presented it, nor do I think he can. I can
afford to give away many points he has dragged his feet on. He will still
fail to make his case.
>You have made those rules the basis for evidence as to the Holocaust.
>
>Now live with them.
I am even playing it much more straight with him than he has with me.
I know where the goalposts are and will not move them, even if it does
look as if he is about to put the ball through the uprights. I can afford
to relax the chain-of-custody rules and the secondary-sources rule as
well. I know the one thing he needs to produce to back up his claim - no
game playing, this is fully serious - but am confident he cannot. I
_will_ insist on proper documentation for it if he tries to assert that it
exists; I do not trust him not to make it up out of whole cloth if he
needs it to win an argument.
>I await your proof.
>
>>
>> Holohuggers are very foolish.
>
>No, Matt. You've lost - AGAIN - and try to bluster out of it.
>
>I wish you'd stop doing that. It really makes you look stupid.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50118 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:59:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4s9urd$64q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s53ri$hhe@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article ,
Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>> Bullshit. Can't go from ignorant to knowledgable over night.
>
>That's true, so thanks again for the compliment.
>
>> But, should you wish to maintain this claim, HOW did you create
>> a five pointed star?
>
>Zapf Dingbats, capital H.
Jamie, you shouldn't give Matt lessons for free. Make him pay for it.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:17 PDT 1996
Article: 50131 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Supersedes: <4s6ae4$9eb@access5.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:05:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4s6b6q$9tf@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79633 alt.revisionism:50131 talk.politics.european-union:4869
In article <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>,
Stefan Schneider wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net says...
>lotsaspam deleted
>> Give it up. Alec is right. You are not intellectually capable of
>>dealing with what is presented to you. If you had half the mind you
>>delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
>>deceive and evade the way you do.
>Learn a little about chemistry. Then retry. See Article (s.c.g) 80416 for
>further information.
>NO regards
I made no claims about chemistry whatsoever. In another article by
this poster in this thread he criticizes Ole Kreiberg by name. So I
suspect he was talking to Ole Kreiberg or perhaps Matt Giwer but
accidentally attached his reply to my post and only included my name. (I
have sent him an email about this, I hope he will clarify.)
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: 12 Jul 1996 18:51:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4s6kt9$i05@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ragsd$ink@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt783$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4s1v21$vkq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31E50FDD.41BF@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31E50FDD.41BF@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>I once nuked Al Gentile by posting his own *PRIOR* posts back at him.
>Matt, I'm sorry to say, has reached the point where I can show the
>contradictions to his claims by simply quoting his own message back to
>him!
Hey, been there, done that. I've _twice_ posted the _three_
contradictory stories he's told about who did what in getting Rack Jite
booted from Volant Turnpike, references to DejaNews URLs and all. Most
people, even some recognized netkooks, would at least be slowed up by that
kind of a kick, but on him it seems to have no effect. I don't know if
Matt _can_ be nuked such that he notices it anymore - he may have turned
into a cockroach. Pity.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50183 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 17:54:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4s6hje$fcr@access5.digex.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:50183 talk.politics.european-union:4875 soc.culture.german:79651
In article <0$ZvnOev10TF065yn@login.dknet.dk>,
Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>In article <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net>, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>
>>
>> Then there is also your idiotic belief that you have seen all the
>>testimonies and your even more idiotic notion that you have accurately
>>understood and remembered them, which anyone here can see you have not and
>>can not. Care to try "after a few minutes there was silence" again? Now,
>>did the witness say the screaming went on for "tens of minutes" as you
>>earlier offered that testimony to support?
>
> I have never said anything about the screaming went on for "tens of
>minutes". Try to stick to the truth.
I know you didn't - I was responding to Matt Giwer, not you. Go back
and look again. Right under my name in your own post you will see
>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
You do not post from Netcom. Matt Giwer posts from Netcom. And it is the
truth that Matt Giwer offered the quote containing "after a few minutes
there was silence" to support his claim that there were stories where the
screaming went on for "tens of minutes." I can even give you the DejaNews
URL to prove it.
>> Give it up. Alec is right. You are not intellectually capable of
>>dealing with what is presented to you.
>
>But what about yourself? What makes you an expert in this field?
I do not have to be an expert to refer to the work of experts. I am
pointing out an example from the real world as admitted by a revisionist
which indicate that the extensive safety procedures were not used for the
delousing chambers, that at least they were far enough away from other
things that tall chimneys were not necessary. The people who built them
were experts and they did not use the tall chimneys.
>>If you had half the mind you
>>delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
>>deceive and evade the way you do.
>>
>>--
>Your response to the revisionist challenge: If you cannot make it any other
>way, try character assasination and mudslinging.
Ole, I do not do this. Again, you misunderstood who I was talking to.
I am not calling _you_ a liar, and I don't believe I ever have. Matt
Giwer _is_ a liar and I can prove this to courtroom standards by comparing
his words in one post with his words in another post. When he says, "I
did not say that" in the same week that I can prove he did say that, and
does this again and again, he is a liar.
He has cut words out of my posts to make it seem as if I said
something very different from what I said. That is deceiving.
He fails to answer important points when he is losing an argument, and
often tries to change the subject. That is evading.
If you require proof for all this I can and will give it. I would
_never_ publicly accuse someone of lying unless I could prove it in court.
You just misunderstood who I was talking to. I will publicly acknowledge
that I cannot recall ever suspecting _you_ of writing anything that you
knew or suspected was false.
Just please try to read the attributions more carefully in the future,
OK?
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50186 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: 14 Jul 1996 08:38:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4sapns$c0s@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s2fqq$agu@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s3i74$jk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s7llo$m0v@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s7llo$m0v@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> It is quite difficult to conceive of people who would call themselves
>researchers who would not call for collaboration by other researchers in
>fields that are not their specialty. Aercheologists and anthropologists
>and even historians invite in geologists and radiologic dating and other
>specialists all the time.
>
> On the presumption I have missed it, I would be interested in which
>historian(s) has (have) invited in even one cyanide gas chamber
>specialist into a review of the mass gassing claims. Do you have a name
>and where on Nizkor I can find the paper?
>
> Lets make it easier as those folks are rather rare.
Indeed, there is just Fred Leuchter, who _calls_ himself one, but who
has never actually designed one.
>How about experts
>on crematoria? Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
>crematoria rates that had to have existed? Can you even name a paper by
>an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
>(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
>including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)
There are references to the Topf patent filed in the '50s; it has been
mentioned in posts here. You have not seen them? Or simply did not
remember what you read?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 13:43:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 14 Jul 1996 15:14:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4sbgvg$n8k@access5.digex.net>
References: <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sb2nq$kun@news.enter.net> <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran wrote:
> I wonder how many frivolous lawsuits this YFE idiot has filed in
>his goofy career?
I wonder how many childish and mindless insults (like this one) this
Tom Moran idiot has posted in this newsgroup in his goofy career?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:50 PDT 1996
Article: 50307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: total lack of perspective exemplified
Date: 14 Jul 1996 08:51:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <4saqgj$c8j@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s1hdo$j4d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <10JUL199622321239@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4s2m9u$lir@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s2m9u$lir@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 10 Jul 1996 22:32 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s1hdo$j4d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>On 10 Jul 1996 06:42 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think there is any data available to support this assertion of
>>>> yours, and your assertion runs counter to what is intuitive to me.
>>>
>>>> Young people in general have little knowledge of historical events 50
>>>> years ago. If you ask them who was president 50 years ago, I suspect
>>>> less than 20% of the college students in the country would get it
>>>> correct. (Marty or someone, could you take a small poll in your class
>>>> and see what happens?)
>>>
>>>> Surely those youths who happened to see Schindler's List have a visual
>>>> image of the Holocaust, but that is just a snapshot. I'd be very
>>>> surprised if you could show me that more than 5% of today's college
>>>> students could name more than one concentration camp, or could
>>>> breakdown death totals into Jewish and non-Jewish correctly, or could
>>>> breakdown camp and non-camp deaths correctly. Whatever picture exists,
>>>> I suggest, is a very shallow picture.
>>>
>>> At a time when 5% of college students would be hard pressed to name the
>>>major countries involved in WW II, this nerfbrain thinks that a bit of
>>>historical trivia like his holocaust is of some particular significance.
>
>> Go away, troll.
>
>> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
>> is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he
>> has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
>> of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
>> contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>> emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
>> himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
>> that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond.
>> For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>
[Giwer spam deleted]
Of course Mr. Giwer launched the personal attack in this case, calling
Danny Mittleman a "nerfbrain" and completely mischaracterizing what he had
written.
When Danny Mittleman responded to this personal attack by pointing out
that it was mere trollery, Mr. Giwer pretended _he_ was the one who had
been personally attacked, and launched his spam.
He has made some serious comments in this thread and they have been
responded to seriously. But here he reverted to namecalling and
mischaracterization of remarks, and was treated with all the respect he
deserved for it (i.e., none).
I have told him many times that if he wants people to stop referring
to him as a lying troll all he needs to do is stop lying and stop
trolling. It is that simple. Apparently Mr. Giwer is a very slow
learner.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:50 PDT 1996
Article: 50308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 14 Jul 1996 08:57:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4saqrp$cbg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rk1ov$74m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article ,
Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) writes:
>
>[A whole lot of empty rhetoric deleted]
[and a little more snipped by me]
># There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints
>
>There you go. This is an outright lie; there are orders, there
>are blueprints, there are documents. Some are routinely
>posted here.
>
[...]
>
>[Regarding testimonies of SS-men about gassings]
>
># Most are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull
># some more of your fingernails out. Or we'll turn your wife and
># children over to the Russians."
>
>Another outright lie. There is no proof that *one* such testimony
>was obtained by such means. Moreover, a great many such testimonies
>were given to German courts, and I haven't yet seen one "revisionist"
>who claimed the Germans tortured these German SS-men into confessing.
>
>It seems you're a pathological liar; if not, why are you lying
>so much? Please explain.
Perhaps he has just swallowed and regurgitated the lies of others?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:25:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4sca5t$6kg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4s6c4r$alr@access5.digex.net> <4s6uel$dtf@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s6uel$dtf@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 12 Jul 1996 16:21:47 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>On 11 Jul 1996 03:55:08 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>>> The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>>>>>pictures of gassing being presented. No pictures at all. NOTHING in
>>>>>the way of physical evidence.
>>>
>>>> No, the revisionist method is to reject all such pictures and evidence
>>>>as being faked or improperly/questionably captioned
>>>
>>> Only the latter and then not improperly but creatively captioned.
>
>> Your gross ignorance is not my fault. Get off your lazy butt and into
>>a library. See Walendy, Udo: "Forged War Crimes Malign the German
>>Nation." He called the resistance photo of pit burning at Birkenau a
>>painting, apparently because of the atrocious printing in the book in
>>which he viewed it. But Pressac has a much better printing of the same
>>photo.
>
> I speak for myself. If you want him to explain, get him to join the
>conference.
When you write "The revisionist method is..." then you are speaking
for more than yourself.
> Why is it you think I should be responsible for explaining what others
>have written?
When you wrote "The revisionist method is ...." you already took on
that responsibility. Had you not wanted it, you should have written, "My
method is ...."
Either you lied when you described the revisionist method or you lied
when you said you speak for yourself. Take your pick.
>>> We already have agreement that damning pictures were not permitted so
>>>there can be no such pictures.
>
>> What brilliant logic. Drug dealing is not permitted so there can be
>>no drug dealers. Quite pathetic.
>
>> No, there are such pictures taken in violation of orders - but of
>>course a photograph cannot conclusively show the cause of death.
>
>Then you are saying there was no way to connect the pictures that exist
>with anything in the captions. One often does have ask the supposed
>origin of these pictures. If they are official pictures, numbered and
>cataloged then there is something to say for them.
Your faith in the veracity of governments is touching.
But why does that not apply to Nazi archives? If you are not
rejecting documents as possibly forged due to passing through Soviet
hands, then there are far more than one or two documents.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:52 PDT 1996
Article: 50338 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:56:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4s9ume$627@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> When you log on to Nizkor next time, you will note they have mastered
>the statement and have stolen an animated GIF from
>some place.
>
> It is all quite impressive what they have mastered in a year.
Fifty-one years and Matt Giwer has not mastered the English language.
Somehow he once read "after a few minutes there was silence" as "the
screaming went on for tens of minutes."
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:53 PDT 1996
Article: 50361 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:34:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <4s9tbo$5if@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s466v$m9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s5vm5$1e0@access5.digex.net> <4s6s6f$4ej@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s6s6f$4ej@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 12 Jul 1996 12:49:09 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
Let's cut to the chase and see if the man with 163 alleged IQ points
(of which I have seen neither physical nor documentary evidence) can
finally figure out what physical evidence he has consistently failed to
present.
>>> But as you see, the physical evidence that exists around Dresden does
>>>not require a single eyewitness statement to reconstruct what happened.
>
>> According to what you have presented so far, you are wrong. I will
>>try to write this very slowly and simply. See if you can clean your
>>glasses and follow the discussion this time.
>
>> You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of
>>cyanide use in the Kremas. There are traces still detectable in the
>>walls. There is a letter from Topf (signatures of both Prufer and Sander
>>plus enough stamps to send an elephant by airmail quite visible) about
>>cyanide detectors for the Kremas. Physical evidence.
>
>> You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of dead
>>bodies at Auschwitz during the same time frame that there was cyanide in
>>use there. Crematoria. Ashes and bone chips - not as many documented
>>tons as you asked to see, but lots of 'em.
>
>> Yet you _do_ dispute the existence of physical evidence for cyanide
>>gassing. You do not need to explain why; I know.
>
>As least someone has gotten it essentially correct. But you do not know
>why or you would spell out why.
This is a terminally stupid statement which can and will be thrown
back in your face below.
> Dead bodies are from disease. Cyanide is for fumigation.
Those convicts in San Quentin are just being fumigated.
>And we have also been over the inabilty of anyone to establish an excess
>number of people going in that are unaccounted for in known records.
That is not true. There are railroad records going in. There are
official death records. There are registration records. There are
survivors. The numbers don't add.
>> Now. Pay attention.
>
>> You have presented physical evidence for the bombing of Dresden. I do
>>not dispute that. I will even accept that the planes referred to in those
>>mission records did the bombing rather than turn back from cowardice with
>>an agreement to hush it up, with the Soviets really carrying out the
>>bombing.
>
>> You have presented physical evidence that about the same time, there
>>was a major fire in Dresden. I do not dispute that.
>
>> However, London and Chicago tell us that one can have a major fire
>>without bombing. So bombing was not a necessary condition for the Dresden
>>fire.
>
>It was, however, coincident with the bombing
And Zyklon use was coincident with large numbers of deaths and
unbalanced and unexplained personnel movement into but apparently not out
of Auschwitz. Your point?
>who identified purpose
In post-raid press releases which, as I have said, may have been
designed after the fact to take advangage of a coincidence. Not physical
evidence, sorry.
What physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?
>was to start a fire storm and a firestorm is what occurred.
It was? Why, yes, I remember reading many hysterical supposed
eyewitness acccounts of this alleged firestorm. Stone ornamental trees
catching fire and all that.
What physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?
>The London and
>Chicago fires were wind driven and not firestorms. A firestorm
>establishes its own air circulation patterns that drive the fire a bit
>like what happens in a hurricane.
Yes, I remember reading many hysterical supposed eyewitness accounts
of this alleged air circulation pattern - high vortex winds, roaring, all
that. Along with the bodies glowing orange and melting.
What physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?
>> And your thousands of mission records tell you that sortie after
>>sortie was flown without giving a whole new meaning to the phrase "toast
>>of the town." So bombing is not a sufficient condition for the Dresden
>>fire.
>
>> The bombing would almost certainly have knocked out the water system
>>and a lot of firefighting equipment and firefighters, making it impossible
>>to fight any fires that may have started in the town (from _any_ cause)
>>and leaving them to spread uncontrolled as they would not have under
>>ordinary circumstances. But ....
>
> But you describe a type of fire that did not occur.
I do? How do you know? What physical evidence have you consistently
failed to present?
>> Now, Mr. Scientist, do you finally realize what physical evidence you
>>have consistently failed to present? Remember, post hoc ergo propter hoc
>>is a logical fallacy.
>
> I hope you now realize just what is wrong with the hypothesis you have
>constructed.
I hope you now realize what physical evidence you have consistently
failed to present.
And keeping a promise above: it is clear you do not have this physical
evidence or else you would have spelled it out.
Matt is _so_ cute when he's being stubborn, isn't he?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 13:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4sbjqq$os2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s76p6$90u@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s76p6$90u@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>,
Richard J. Green wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>
>What is the equilibrium vapor pressure of HCN at say 0 C? What is the
>lethal concentration of HCN?
>
>
>T (C) Torr
>
>-20 100
>0 260
>10 410
>20 610
>30 900
>
>From DuPont's "Hydrogen Cyanide: Uses, Storage, and Handling"
>
>260 Torr = 340,000 ppm. 300 ppm is rapidly fatal.
>
>So the vapor pressure of the absorbed liquid is well above lethal
>concentrations even at very cold temperature. As far as the _rate_ of
>evaporation goes, see Peters.
And that is without even discussing the silly notion that a colder
body must be in direct contact with a warmer body in order to be warmed by
it.
Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense? Hmn ....
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 13:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: total lack of perspective exemplified
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:25:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4se2e4$d7q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s2m9u$lir@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4saqgj$c8j@access5.digex.net> <4scoa8$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scoa8$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 08:51:31 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
[snip again]
>>[Giwer spam deleted]
>
> Would you prefer this?
>
>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Sado-masochistic fantasies
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:39:19 GMT
>
>
>3/20/88:
> An article in the Baltimore Sun calls attention to the rising
>incidence of impostors who tell
> grisly stories of wartime derring-do in Vietnam, but who never
>served there, let alone saw
> combat. Psychologists and counselors working with Vietnam veterans
>have identified one
> telltale sign of these liars; a propensity to claim involvement in
>some atrocity, such as
> massacring women and children.
[...]
Actually, I'm glad you posted this one; it saves me the trouble of
looking it up on DejaNews. Its relevance to the title of this thread and
your precious Dresdenhugger myth should be obvious. Need I remind you
that you have yet to answer the mail in the thread "An admission of
perfidious guilt" regarding the physical evidence you have consistently
failed to present?
Whether you have the honesty to admit that you have never seen this
physical evidence is of course entirely up to you. Would you like a towel
to wipe the cider from your eye?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 19:32:03 PDT 1996
Article: 50511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 15 Jul 1996 09:42:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4sdhso$li8@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606 wrote:
>In article <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan writes:
>
>>
>>Where is there proof that it was Dresden? Where is there proof of
>>firebombing?
>>
>>Your rules - back at you!
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, this just doesn't work. Where are the three million who were
>gassed? Completely disappeared. Not so Dresden. Photographs and foreign
>journalists visited the scene, the destruction, and the corpses within
>days. Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka. Thousands of individuals, and even
>national governments whose archives were not compromised by their enemies
>admitted to the bombing of Dresden. Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka. Less
>than 200 people claim to be eyewitnesses to the gassings that consumed 3
>million, including many on trial for their lives and who denied personal
>responsibility or involvement. Not so Dresden. And so forth.
You aren't following the discussion very well. The dispute is not
really about whether Dresden was bombed, no more than anyone disputes
whether Zyklon was used in the camps, although the reductio argument can
be used on Dresden documents - they are _not_ immune to forgery. The
dispute is not about whether there was a major fire and loss of life, no
more than anyone disputes that a large number of people - well over
100,000 even by SS records of registered prisoner deaths undisputed by
revisionists - died at Auschwitz.
The completely serious question I am asking is whether the bombing and
the massive fire can be linked to each other by physical evidence alone
(as Mr. Giwer has asserted he can do) rather than coincidence, eyewitness
testimony, and after-the-fact press releases. I can honestly say that the
only basis I have heard for the firestorm is eyewitness testimony
describing it. But by Mr. Giwer's method we must disregard the people who
reported stone trees burning and people glowing orange and melting, and
only go by physical evidence.
As with Mr. Giwer's thread "well-designed mass gassing chambers," it
is very hard to believe that they could deliberately start a large-scale
firestorm the first time they tried, since it had never been done before.
Add in the many bombing raids which did _not_ create crispy cities, and on
the physical evidence alone, we must conclude that the fire was a number
of ordinary fires allowed to spread unchecked due to the destruction of
firefighting capability, blown out of proportion by hysterical
eyewitnesses.
Surely you must agree that we are obliged throw out all those
eyewitness testimonies of vortex winds (and burning stone trees, and
people glowing orange and melting), which is all I have seen to establish
the firestorm. Furthermore, I have never seen a forensic investigation
report that conclusively confirms that the ignition points of the Dresden
fires coincided with the bomb impact points. I seriously doubt any such
was done - just as with the piles of bodies at the concentration camps,
where "everybody knew" gas did it, "everybody knew" the bombs started the
fires which destroyed Dresden. As far as I know, we only have worthless
eyewitness testimony and assumption based on coincidence to link the bombs
to the fires, and by Mr. Giwer's rules we may only go by physical
evidence. But post hoc ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy.
Yet neither you nor Mr. Giwer is skeptical of the Dresden myth, which
as far as I can see cannot be supported by physical evidence alone. He
has already appealed to press releases (!). From this it is clear that he
cannot make his case on the physical evidence despite the fact that
there has never been a claim of attempt to destroy the physical evidence
to cover up the crime.
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 19:32:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 15:03:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4se4mu$eso@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4sbkb4$p4q@access5.digex.net> <4sco4o$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4sco4o$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 16:12:20 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>Holger Skok wrote:
[...]
>>>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>>>
>>>This figure therefore, has got very little to do with the time it takes
>>>the HCN to evaporate. It has much more to do with the metabolic rate
>>>of the insects and their susceptibility to cyanide poisoning.
>
>> And to seep into the nooks and crannies of a house, into bedding, etc.
>>In a specially-designed delousing chamber with heaters and powered
>>circulation, far less time was required.
>
> It is interesting that neither heaters nor powered circulation are
>apparent in the "gas chambers" when the utility of these features was
>very well known.
Perhaps you'd like to point out the air circulation system which
operates in the San Quentin gas chamber during the gassing operation (as
opposed to the gas extraction phase)? I thought not.
With regard to heating, the relevant question is the difference in
time, not whether it would work at all. But of course you pretend not to
see that.
> But, gee, self styled "experts" have found such obvious gas chamber
>design features on the LK that "even they" can see them. Yet they lack
>these obvious ones.
The San Quentin gas chamber is obviously a hoax.
> What is missing is much more interesting than what exists, as always.
Has anyone found physical evidence of Mr. Giwer's brain, or honesty?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 20:08:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50526 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 15 Jul 1996 12:02:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4sdq24$t8s@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sa62t$gro@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sb3n7$kun@news.enter.net> <4scqtd$567@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scqtd$567@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 15:28:39 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> > The netcom abuse group finally caught up with you? Say hello to
>>> >Ishmael Estrada.
>>>
>>> Not in the least, fool. There has been exactly one claim filed with
>>> that addr that copied me and it was started by another person who
>>> cancelled the message after it was responded to. That left it looking
>>> like I was the originator.
>
>> That is a lie and you know it. Just ask Ismael Estrada.
>
> You have him, her or it logon to this NG and talk about it. Your
>assertions ain't shit.
The latter sentence is one of Mr. Giwer's relatively rare true
statements. On the other hand, it is quite clear to all that Mr. Giwer's
assertions _are_.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 21:10:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50528 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 15 Jul 1996 12:10:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4sdqgo$e9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <13JUL199608192997@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sa1as$e9d@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4sa1as$e9d@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 13 Jul 1996 08:19 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>> Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>>that is about it) content.
>>>
>>> Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.
>
>> What a great place ofor us to house all of our evidence of Giwer's
>> trolling, spamming, lying, and incompetence! We will quickly find out
>> to what extent this ISP really supports free speech!
>
> It looks like I can offer a gig for $500 a month but nothing a firm
> yet.
I guess Matt isn't committed to _free_ speech after all.
> I will be laughing all the way to the bank.
>
> Interested?
Well, if that is the rate for all, whether you agree with them or not,
then I doubt you will get many customers. However, if you are engaging in
discriminatory pricing, then of course all one need do to show how stupid
you Dresdenhuggers are is to come in under an alias or via an agent. Then
there will be a juicy breach of contract suit should you try to take down
the pages or change the terms retroactively.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 21:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50542 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 15 Jul 1996 17:46:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4see6r$mh7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvit2$hcv@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s184u$p99@news.enter.net> <4s2ips$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4s2ips$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 10 Jul 1996 21:42:54 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>>
>>> Minor question, which of the signers of the DOI was Jewish?
>
>> None. There were no Jewish delegates to the Constitutional
>>Convention so none could sign it. There were, however, a number of Jews who
>>signed the Non-importation Agreements.
>
> Very good, no contribution there.
Sounds like a troll. Looks like a troll. Smells like a troll.
(Based on the smell I do not plan to touch or taste it.)
>>> Another minor question, what are the names of the "jews" who were
>>> against the revolution and what did they do?
>
>> There were a number of Jewish Loyalists. Among the most notable were
>>Isaac Touro of Newport and Abraham Wagg of New York who, though disabled
>>and in his 50's served in a tory regiment. The most prominent Jewish
>>loyalist family was the Franks family in New York. David Franks of New
>>York served as commisary of British prisoners until 1778. His son
>>served as an officer in a British regiment and his sister was the wife
>>of Oliver DeLancey. (Oddly enough another member of the family -- also
>>named David Franks served on Washington's personal staff). I could find
>>no others who fought for the crown. There were a few others of
>>questionable loyality to independence, but it was fairly rare. In
>>contrast there were 283 Jews who served in American units.
> Very good also. There was indeed no particular Jewish contribution
>any more than there was a red haired people contribution.
This of course was not the issue, but then Mr. Giwer does seem to have
a problem keeping on track.
>>> Excuse me but that second question must have been too hard a
>>question.
>>> Would you like to try to rephrase it and answer in your own clever way?
>
>> Now would you like to point out its relevanace. The fact is that a
>>great majority of the 2500 or so Jews in America supported the
>>Revolution. In my area there were three adult Jewish males. Two served
>>in the Continental line, the third served in a volunteer capacity
>>managing a hospital in Bethlehem. The fact is that L'il Tommy did not
>>know or care about this. What he wanted to do was lie about Jews. This
>>he did.
> Quite impressive but not outstanding nor of more than statistical
>interest.
Some people keep track of batting averages and ERAs; some people keep
track of lies per post. Mr. Giwer and Tom Moran are in close contention
for the crown this season.
> Nothing beyond normal demographic distribution.
Well, let's see. 283 out of 2500 is 11% of the _total_ population
(not able-bodied male population). In order to make the assertion above
it would be necessary to show that 11% of the non-Jewish total population
fought for independence. But Mr. Giwer has never displayed an
understanding of statistics, or of supporting assertions with evidence,
that I have been able to see.
I keep telling him what he has to do to get people to stop calling him
a lying troll. But does he listen? Obviously not.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 22:32:46 PDT 1996
Article: 50564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: 15 Jul 1996 16:11:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4se8l4$hfd@access5.digex.net>
References: <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>
> Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
>the Nizkor site. Two of them are "co-webmasters" but certainly it is
>possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
>conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.
Matt Giwer has contributed megabytes of defamatory material. Perhaps
he should retain legal counsel.
> They should all be named.
My parents did that years ago. Mr. Giwer should pay attention.
> The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
>of interest to most any "contributor."
At most I am responsible for bass damages. If Mr. Giwer is having
problems with his treble he is out of luck.
>Of course if they can prove they did not contribute to the defamation ...
Any defamation posted by Matt Giwer in response to my postings is
entirely Matt Giwer's responsibility.
> But then, they were only following orders.
>
> But then, the only reason I am leaving Nizkor on line is to accumulate
>evidence.
I think if he thought matters through, he would find at least one more
reason, but whatever trips his trigger. I can think of several reasons
for allowing Mr. Giwer to continue to post. As evidenced by his recent
series of extremely silly posts about lawsuits, however, serious debate on
Holocaust revisionism is clearly not among them.
I have told him what he needs to do to stop being called a lying
troll, but he just doesn't listen.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 23:48:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: 15 Jul 1996 19:27:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sek4h$qs4@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e6497a.1895296@news.pacificnet.net> <31e90b3e.8533257@news.pacificnet.net> <4scq5r$k49@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scq5r$k49@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
> They are a bunch of amateurs involved in libel
Are you referring to your own, preserved for all to see on Nizkor? I
suppose it would not be your greatest abuse of language to call the object
of libel "involved" in it.
>and as a group have
>organized to the point they are liable under the RICO statutes. Treble
>punative damages there as I recall. Against each individual as I
>recall.
I suppose you would have to find some activity actionable under the
RICO statutes to find out if this is true. Please do not hesitate to file
your suit if and when you find something you believe fits the bill. Until
then, do you suppose you could stop wasting bandwidth with these extremely
silly trolls and juvenile pseudothreats and get back on track with the
purpose of the newsgroup?
As I recall you have some unanswered mail regarding Dresden in the
thread, "An admission of perfidious guilt." Perhaps you would like to
rejoin the discussion of the demolition of the Dresdenhugger myth, an act
of real historical revisionism? Nobody appears to be able to present
physical evidence for that firestorm, only hysterical eyewitness accounts.
Any day now, Matt.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 02:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 50588 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:47:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4se3o3$e5k@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s7m5o$erk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4sbjl6$oov@access5.digex.net> <4scn8r$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scn8r$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 16:00:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s7m5o$erk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:45:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>>If the stuff only released 10% in 5 minutes, it would be enough to do
>>>>the job - therefore it was sufficiently efficient, since the cost of
>>>>transport, etcetera, made it cheaper than tanks of gas.
>>>
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>
>>>>Now - want to try again?
>>>
>>> Try again? You have supported my position admirably, more than I could
>>>have imagined or expected. It is exactly what I have been saying.
>>>Thank you.
>
>> You now admit that the Zyklon could have outgassed fast enough to do
>>the job, even in cold weather. Thank you. If you have been saying this
>>all along, the paupacy of your English skills has certainly prevented
>>anyone seeing it until now.
>
> You are apparently suffering from a reading comprehension problem.
How would you know, Mr. "after a few minutes there was silence = the
screaming went on for tens of minutes?"
> Outgassing is not linear. In the second 5 minutes another 10% of the
>remaining 90% is released. It is not linear such that it is all gone in
>50 minutes.
I never said otherwise. But you know that.
> You should know basic things like that. It is unclear why you do not
>without blaming the public education system.
I do know things like that. It is unclear why you do not know how to
read.
There have been claims that the Zyklon will not produce enough gas
fast enough to kill people in the reported time, and claims that the
Zyklon would remain too dangerous for too long a period to allow the
reported times. There are separate arguments offered in rebuttal for each
claim. When you develop the reading and critical thinking skills
necessary to recognize which claim is under discussion, and what rebuttal
is being made, do please be so good as to give some physical evidence of
it.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 02:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 50596 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay being sued
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:37:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4se35b$dpk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sa7a6$et8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4sb23j$kun@news.enter.net> <4scvka$gjq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scvka$gjq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 15:01:07 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> This is an interesting discovery, that he is being sued along with his
>>> Canadian and US donation acceptors and the two co-webmasters.
You have discovered this how? The email from Ms. Thompson? Since
when did email become a legal means of process service? Your ignorance
shows through once again.
The legal service of process has yet to arrive, according to Ken
McVay. Somehow I have a hunch he will be waiting a long time. Call it a
psychic prediction.
>>> After all, what is defamation of character all about?
>
>> Why ask? I'm sure the lawyer you consulted told you that when he
>>threw you out of his office.
>
>> --YFE
>
> If there was ever any message that confirmed my suspicion that you are
>willing to lie about the law to promote Israelites this was it. Not to
>say there were not many previous messages that did so but this is the
>defining lie.
>
> There is no way this can comfort the RICO liable contributors to
>McVay's actionable site. It is clearly racketeering under US law.
>
> But you know that.
I tried tennis once or twice, ping-pong as a child. That is the
extent of my racketeering activity. If you think it gives you grounds for
a suit, be my guest.
Would you like to stop lying and stop trolling and answer the mail
about Dresden in the thread "An admission of perfidious guilt?" It is
clear to all that you cannot but it would be refreshing to see you have
the honesty to admit it. It would also help get the newsgroup back on
track. You do want to keep on track, don't you?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 08:46:47 PDT 1996
Article: 50634 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:51:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4se3vp$ed7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s76p6$90u@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4sbjqq$os2@access5.digex.net> <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
[snip]
>> Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense? Hmn ....
>
> What was there to correct. It is not Zyklon B. It has no direct
>relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
>effect upon evaporation.
Once again your eagle eye and astounding reading comprehension display
themselves. Let me cut it down to something small enough for your
attention span to deal with. This is the silly notion which needs
correction:
>>>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>
>>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>>> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 12:49:46 PDT 1996
Article: 50746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4sgcik$sgn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4se3vp$ed7@access5.digex.net> <4sfmms$21p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4sfmms$21p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>On 15 Jul 1996 14:51:37 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>> Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense? Hmn ....
>>>
>>> What was there to correct. It is not Zyklon B. It has no direct
>>>relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
>>>effect upon evaporation.
>
>> Once again your eagle eye and astounding reading comprehension display
>>themselves. Let me cut it down to something small enough for your
>>attention span to deal with. This is the silly notion which needs
>>correction:
>
>>>>>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>>>>> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>>>>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>>>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>
>> Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>
> Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?
They were present only in Kremas II and III. As I said, you have
never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
because you neither understand nor remember what you read. How can you
possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?
> Which particular conflicting story are you supporting?
Rather the question here is whether you accept Mr. Kreiberg's
ridiculous idea that something must be in direct physical contact with a
human body in order to be warmed by that body's heat.
I thought you had a degree in physics. You should know the answer to
this. Yet you do not correct your fellow revisionist when he makes a
gross scientific error that a bright English major should be able to spot.
The conclusion that you are a fraud is a very attractive one.
>You folks jump around so much it is very difficult to keep track of what
>you are addressing.
Do not blame me for your early-onset Alzheimer's.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 13:26:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:12:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sbkb4$p4q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article ,
Holger Skok wrote:
>In article <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>...
>> Hydrocyanic acid vapors are not released immediately after the cans
>> are opened. The evaporation of Zyklon B requires as many as 32 hours
>> or as few as six hours, depending on whether the ambient temperature
>> ranges from five to 30 degrees Celsius. The evaporation rate is not
>> exactly proportional to time.
>
>And this is obviously complete bunk. The manual Lueftl cites here to
>get his 32 hour figure is one concerned with fumigation. The manual
>clearly states that the time it takes for the HCN to reach the desired
>effect - i.e. kill all insects in the treated house - can be up to 32 hours
>at low temperatures.
>
>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>
>This figure therefore, has got very little to do with the time it takes
>the HCN to evaporate. It has much more to do with the metabolic rate
>of the insects and their susceptibility to cyanide poisoning.
And to seep into the nooks and crannies of a house, into bedding, etc.
In a specially-designed delousing chamber with heaters and powered
circulation, far less time was required.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 14:01:35 PDT 1996
Article: 50763 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hub*rs and antisemitism
Date: 16 Jul 1996 11:11:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4sgbf6$rnc@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sb3m4$i8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sck1l$kc0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
In article <4sck1l$kc0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>,
A Huber wrote:
>You've made the mis-assumption that following j*daism makes one religious.
> and therefore not interested in Communism. By no stretch of the
>imagination is j*daism a "religion", unless we are to use it in the same
>context in which the Very Reverend Louis Farrakhan used it, eg, "gutter
>religion."
>
>If you have ever read from the Talm*d, you would understand.
I have read from the Talmud. It's just amazing what you find when you
look at everything in context. It's a shame the rabbis organized the
criminal penalty discussions in a strange way - rather than organizing by
act, it is organized by penalty. Tractate Sanhedrin deals with death
penalty law, while Makkoth deals with offenses punishable by whipping.
Antisemites like Hub*er quote selectively from Sanhedrin to make it seem
as if certain acts are excused, when one finds that over in Makkoth there
are no exceptions to punishment. (The rules on applying the death penalty
were quite stringent; any doubt whatsoever as to full satisfaction of
every legal requirement was cause to reduce the penalty to whipping.)
>Which gives me an idea!!!!
>
>We had so much fun with the Khazar series, we'll do the next series on
>"Quotes from the Talm*d".
Oh, goody. I'll dust off my file of "what the liars left out of their
quotes, and how they mistranslated."
>People can see for themselves what trash, then, the j*ws are.
And people can see for themselves what liars, then, the Hub*rs are.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 14:01:36 PDT 1996
Article: 50764 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 16 Jul 1996 09:52:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4sg6q5$n88@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sdhso$li8@access5.digex.net> <4sfg86$o2l@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4sfg86$o2l@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer