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Topic: Cox PT 19 History? (Read 24853 times)

I'm new to the board and to CL. Had a PT 19 when I was 8 years old in 1970. Flew it once, crashed it after half a lap. Never flew again... until now.

Saw the Hangar 9 PT 19 in the local hobby shop, which brought back memories of the old Cox PTs. One thing led to another. Got on Ebay, bought two PTs, one to fly, another to display.

Flew them late last week and got through consecutive flights --- takeoffs and landings --- without a crash -- redemption nearly 40 years later. It was a blast. Can't wait to fly again and get good enough to fly the H9 PT.

Question: Who at Cox designed the PT 19? What year did it come out? Any other assorted trivia would be helpful to know. Guess you could say the PTs have a special place in my heart.

I'd kill to have the blue wings/yellow body; or the red and white version.

I did the same thing. Flew the Cox PT-19 back in the late 60's. I went in a hobby shop several months ago and saw the Hanger 9 PT-19 and I have been flying it ever since. It has a different engine on it now and it is on it's 3rd gas tank. It has had a couple of repairs but it still flies great. One of my fellow fliers put it through the paces a couple of times and it is capable of doing nearly anything.

Mike: I bought the Hanger 9 PT-19 with the Evo 36 engine. It was almost ready to fly and was very easy to get ready. So far the only thing I have done is hit the ground at about a 25-30 degree angle coming out of a wing over. When it hit the ground, it broke the propeller off and the plane bounced back in the air and made another almost full lap before hitting again. It broke one of the landing gear mounts completely loose and bent the other landing gear back. I was able to repair it by cutting away part of the covering and epoxing the mount back in and doing some other repair work. It seems to be very sturdy.

I just started flying again since the 60's and I have the good fortune to fly with some world class fliers. One of them has flown the PT-19 a couple of times and is able to do pretty much anything he wants with it. We had trouble keeping the Evo engine from leaning out during flight and ended up putting a Magnum 36 on it. It is perfect with the Magnum engine. We ended up replacing the gas tank a couple of times too. The only other things I have had to do was pin the horizontal stab after it came apart while the other person was flying and we had to add nose weight.

I think the PT 19 was available at different times with at least three styles of the 049. The first without doubt is the Babe Bee. Next (unless there are others) was the 190 series "postage stamp" product engine and in its final form used the Sure Start product engine.

The 1st version of the PT19 used the #350 Babe Bee engine and was released in 1960. Later variants used the #191-5 product engine and then even later the Sure Start engine. The PT19 was designed by Ralph Ray, who performed demonstration flights in the Disneyland Flight Circle.

I am glad to hear who it was originally designed the PT-19! I had a hand in updating it to the "Product Engine" and the integrated windshields and pilots to reduce weight and improve crash resistance (The old cockpit unit was beautiful, but heavy and fragile). At the same time, I improved the stability and did some strengthening here and there. The last version was brought back by Mike Pratt who oversaw re-tooling the design and added tipweight.

I loved my PT-19. Yellow and blue and at one time I think I had four or five of them. I learned to fly better after learning on one of the testors rocks on a string, and taught others how to fly using this model.

I found if you really leaned the engine out, and got a good amount of height and dived the model so it went very fast, you could actually get it to do a sort of loop. Kind of eliptical, but it would do it. Wouldn't fly inverted though. Learned that later flying something with a black widow.

Always popular at parties; I usually had one plane or another in the car, and after a few adult beverages, was persuaded to get it out and fly it for everybody. Them beverages made my center of the circle get bigger and bigger and I flew my loop and the down leg went right into a neighbor's okra patch. The okra and plane both survived the incident. I then put the model away as to not hurt it. Stupid me I wasn't worried about hitting anyone, or anything, just the model.

I learned more better after that.

Enjoy the plane and after a while, perhaps you'll move to a larger plane. They are easier to fly, and do more than get you dizzy.Best to you in the future with all your modeling adventures.

I got the bug for PT-19 trainers during Christmas in 1970. My Father and Uncle received a PT-19 each as a gift from my grandparents that year. I was 5 and was more than a little unhappy that I didn’t get an Airplane. Dad flew his twice if you can call it that. He made it off the ground straight up and back into the ground. The 2nd event was after much urging from me and a trip by my mother to purchase a new fuselage and I think.. Wing. I visited by the baseball diamond where this 2nd crash happened last week. 36 or so years later. I think I need to go fly mine there just settle the score if you will.

I bought a PT-19 in the late 70’s and surprisingly enough flew it successfully and often. I had a blast. Dad was always surprised that it came home intact. Somewhere along the lines this all faded and it was sold at a garage sale or something. I think Dads went the same way.

Last year I got the control line bug. I bought a PT-19 at the flea market for 12.50 in the original box. This was a 1962 plane and one I had not seen before. I started working to find these and now have a “sort of” collection with a 5th version as I call it that I am flying currently. I am going to put together an early version from all the spare parts to fly something with the Baby Bee.

I bought Dad an unflown (4th version) 1974 plane last year and gave it to him for Christmas last year. My son who I plan on teaching to fly this weekend received a 6th version although its really not the same plane anymore.

Below is what I know so far excluding anything like Red/White or muffled versions. It is interesting when you are making sure a particular plane has all the correct period parts how much they changed. Some of the information below may be incorrect but I have joined this blog as it looks like the correct group of folks are here to further clarify the details. I can shoot photos of anything I have to make comparisons. Perhaps we can also do some trading of sought after items back and forth to complete these little gems.

Here is what I have compiled so far. Mark1st version - 1960-1965Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble Drome etched into the aluminum tank.Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light. Note: The earliest version of Fuse in 1960-61 has far less panel line detail present. The initial lines are there but that is it.Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. They were not painted and were injected in the color opposite the fuselage.Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded. Color: The yellow was a more Canary Yellow and the blue has a grayness.

2nd version – 1966-1970Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble Drome etched into the aluminum tank for early portion of the run. Toward the end this etching was not on the tank.Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced. Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light. Panel and rivet detail continued from the 62 and on version. Toward the end of the run for this model the area around the motor may be trimmed away more to alleviate warping from exhaust.Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. Painted but with with the color of the plastic that they were molded from left exposed as the color of the shirt they were wearing. One guy in a Blue shirt and the other in Yellow per plane.Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded. Color: The yellow changed and was a more standard and darker or School Bus yellow and the blue changed to a lighter Blue.

3rd version – 1970-1973Motor –Baby Bee with integral tank as on earlier versions. Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced. Fuselage – Same but with a cross bar added to join the left and right sides in front of the motor. Also the opening for the motor is smaller if looking at it from the top. Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. Painted with the color of the plastic that they were molded from left exposed as the color of the shirt they were wearing. One guy in a Blue shirt and the other in Yellow per plane.Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded. Wing- Rubber band posts are reinforced somewhere during this run.Color: Same as version 2

4th version – 1974-Motor –Initial version had Baby Bee but changed to a motor with a plastic back plate. Primarily In Red plasticFirewall – Tank mounted motor became unit with a plastic back plate and required a different and deeper firewall to make up the difference in length. Yellow in color. May be a blue. Not sure but all eventually became black.Fuselage – Initial units had no integrated tank for Baby Bee but changed to integral tank. Initial filler and overflow nipples were the same size in front of the windshield and later changed to 1 nipple with a larger overflow and floating valve out of black plastic. Side lugs were added for to strap rubber bands under the wing from front to back. Tank: Molded in plastic matching the fuselage with an offset triangular shape to drain fuel on the right side and keep motor fed using centrifugal force. Pilots /Windshields – Assembled a complete and separate interior that included the windshields. Mounted from inside on two posts that were mushroomed with heat to keep this in place. Heads were larger and shirts on the pilots were orange. This was a more complete pilot with full torso. Instruments are a sticker on the dash. Elevator – 2nd position and slower adjustment for pushrod added. This may have been added during the end of the 3rd version.Color: Blue became darker.

5th version – Early 80’sMotor – Motor with a plastic back plate.Firewall – Deeper firewall continues to make up the difference in length from the Baby Bee. Black in color. Tank: Molded in clear/white plastic much like a film canister and now round in shape with an offset single nipple drain. No longer triangular in shape and motor can starve during nose up situations. Fuselage – Completely different fuselage. Rivit detail and lines have changed although it looks traditional. Windshields are only a very vertical frame and Pilots shoulders are formed into the back of the cockpit. Big Dudley Do-right heads that are heat welded in place from below. The heads nearly always break off. Overall a thicker and more durable fuselage. Color: Same Darker Blue and the yellow is Schoolbus or Safety yellow. Personal note: Controls – Had to modify up down controls by changing the length of the pushrod and trimming the bellcrank (clearance) to get the same movement as in earlier PT-19s. Had “no” down initially.

6th version – Early 90’sMotor –Cox Sure Start. Firewall – Deeper firewall but this version is different to clear the snorkel on the Sure Start motor and the wire on the landing gear is formed differently. Tank: Round tank continues. Does not stay attached to the fuselage. Pops off easily. Fuselage – Again different with increasingly cruder detailing. Opening for the Bellcrank changed with rounded windows for strength. Pilots are molded in as well on this version but even a step cruder on the detail Wing- Much thinner and very flexible with a Tip weight. Rudder: Will not transfer to older PTs and does not locate the same. Color: A little darker blue and schoolbus yellow continues

The PT19 was designed by Ralph Ray, who performed demonstration flights in the Disneyland Flight Circle.

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Is this THE Ralph Ray, of S. California free flight fame? If so, he's alive and well in Boulevard, CA (no, I had never heard of it either!).

Ralph and I went to the same high school in Indianapolis in the early 50's, then lost touch and moved to California at slightly different times and places, in the late 50's/early 60's. We reconnected at the swap meet at the AMA Convention in Ontario a few years ago!.........50 years later!

Dave...you're thinking of Ralph Prey...the FF Ace. I think he was an FAA guy.

BEFORE the PT-19, Cox had a profile 1/2a trainer that had an undercambered wing and was rubber banded together. A friend got one for Christmas ('61 I think), and I know we flew that in the "Field House" in Pullman. I don't recall any parental units being present. I flew it and it flew pretty well, and I think I got it in the air and had him flying it alright. It seems like it was blue & yellow, but don't recall if it tried to look like a PT-19 or not.

Later, another friend got a Cox P-40, and I flew that someplace...seems like it was their front yard. It was a handful, but it did fly, on quite short lines. Not very well, and with longer lines, it wouldn't have. Of the two, the profile was the one that coulda helped a lot of kids fly CL. The P-40 did us no favors! Steve

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I seem to remember seeing a profile Cox plane in of all places, the Encyclopedia Brittannica at my elementary school library in Lake Charles, La. I think it was under "Model airplanes". The encyclopedias were probably ten years old at the time. This would have been around 1970. I was 11 at the time. I think it resembled a PT-19, but I could be mistaken.

I vaguely remember the Profile Cox and it did resemble the PT-19. The hobby shop had one and before I could get enough coins together it sold. Never seen another one. DOC Holliday

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I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.John E. "DOC" Holliday10421 West 56th TerraceShawnee, KANSAS 66203AMA 23530

If memory serves me, the Profile Trainer had an adjustable motor mount. For training, you would crank in down thrust. This would cause the plane to have to fly with a higher angle of attach thus slowing the flight and making the plane more docile and forgiving. After getting the hang of things, you would take out the down thrust and the plane would fly more like a controliner than a free flight model.Ahhh! Those were the days...... Orv.

Wow Orv! You have a good memory! I never knew this but by enlarging the picture some I could see the pivot screw (left inside circle), adjustment screw, the indicating arrow (these on the Mount) and three adjustable positions marked on the fuse.

I would have had no idea if you had not mentioned it. Thanks for some good info.

Ty, I was just getting ready for my Senior year in high school. Just had our homecoming last month with the 50 year group as homecoing is on the odd years. DOC Holliday

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I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.John E. "DOC" Holliday10421 West 56th TerraceShawnee, KANSAS 66203AMA 23530

I think the profile model was the TD-4, and the most gawdawful model I ever flew! I got about half a lap, and happened to give some down control; the wings flexed down and smashed the model to bits. Mind you, I could fly the whole pattern at this point, and it wasn't my model. Talk about red face?

Ty and George, graduating class of 1960 of 27 students at Humansville High School about halfway between Osceola and Bolivar Missouri. By then I was flying a T-Square with the K&B Green head .35. DOC Holliday

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I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.John E. "DOC" Holliday10421 West 56th TerraceShawnee, KANSAS 66203AMA 23530

Glad you found the information helpful. I will be working to fill in the gaps and or make corrections as I know more. I am sure there are folks here that could help with that as well on this board.

You will have to post some pics of your QZ PT when you get it!

I have been flying a recent production version as late as last week. I had some issues with the fuse melting around the motor area and a cold flow joint during the injection molding on the left side of the nose. I have put a patch on the inside out of a junk fuse I was saving back for the Blue plastic. It works great and the plastic welding was done in a way that it looks like a factory deal. I will be working to add some different wheels and a tail wheel as well. At some point I would like to come up with some vintage pilots to put in this one as the heads wont stay on the Dudley Do-Rights. An exhaust deflector is planned as well to kick the exhaust out and up over the cowl out of spun aluminum. This newer motor has never ran as well as the older ones that I have so there may be a motor swap. In Colorado as the Air is thinner.... it really has to run well to keep the lines tight during a flight.

While working on the plane above I put together a group of parts from what started out as a 1962 plane. I have shelf queens already so this one will be a flyer. These were lighter planes so it should fly much better. I will be reinforcing some areas so that it lasts but this will all be hidden so that it doesnt show. I will also be updating the gear on this plane but with vintage Perfect or Veco wheels. This particular plane will fly with the Original Baby Bee that has almost no time on it.

Take Care and looking forward to hearing from others that may have this PT 19 Fetish. Or. those that have some parts they may want to get rid of ..

I had one in 1967. So second generation from what has been posted. I know it had a Baby Bee because I still have the engine. The engine later went on a Goldberg Trainer, the one with the two piece firewall that rubber banded together, as the engine is still mounted on a firewall piece. I think it also served on a Goldberg Lil' Satan for a while.

But I think I "flew" the PT-19 a couple of times. It was retired when one of the tabs broke off the wing that held the end of the rubber band. Damage from one of my "landings" with it. We tried to glue it back on, but wasn't able to get it to hold well enough to take the rubber band pressure.

Not to hijack but a quick Lil' Satan story: Newly married (1967), wife worked days, I worked nights, so I built a Lil' Satan for something to do during the days. Powered by Babe Bee, just got it finished and decided to make sure the engine still ran. Fired it up and very quickly became surrounded by a couple of neighborhood kids.

One boy was VERY interested in the plane. After he promised me that he would fly it, I gave it to him. We moved shortly after that so I never saw him fly it.

My favorite Cox PT-19 story is when the dreaded "invisible fuel fire" melted a plane before our very eyes! Man, those little fire episodes were sneaky! I also remember that you could take a straight pin in a pair of pliers and melt another hole in the elevator control horn for more throw, and by opening the crossover hole in the rudder, you could get a PT to do a decent loop - as long as the engine was screaming its heart out.

I do love the history and stories of these dear planes. Maybe there could be threads of others like the Miss America, Stuka, P-40 and even other brands like the Firebaby or Wen Mac planes. Just an idea.

The only plastic RTF I ever had was one of the old Wen Mac Chromed P-39 plane. A used one at that.

George: Thanks for the photo. Can't wait until I get the plane. Should be next week.

Hey, anyone with a reverse blue/yellow PT, please let me know: Mhodge7021@aol.com. That's the plane I'm currently gunning for. Lost out on one on ebay this past weekend. Tied for the high bid, but got beat out because I bid later than the winner.

... Thought I was being cute by pulling the trigger at the last second (literally). I promised myself I would not take this sport competitively and all it took was a little time on ebay for that goal to be ruined:)

The PT19 was designed by Ralph Ray, who performed demonstration flights in the Disneyland Flight Circle.

Is this THE Ralph Ray, of S. California free flight fame? If so, he's alive and well in Boulevard, CA (no, I had never heard of it either!).

Ralph and I went to the same high school in Indianapolis in the early 50's, then lost touch and moved to California at slightly different times and places, in the late 50's/early 60's. We reconnected at the swap meet at the AMA Convention in Ontario a few years ago!.........50 years later!

Dave Gardner

It could well be I guess. It would be great if we could contact him eh. I have been conversing with Lee Heinly who flew Cox's at the Cox Disney Flight Circle between June 1960 and Sept 1965. Lee does not dispute that Ralph Ray designed the PT-19 and says that when he was there, Ralph worked in in the model shop at the plant (on Poinsettia Street in Santa Ana, Calif). Lee said that he learned to fly on the PT-19.

It could well be I guess. It would be great if we could contact him eh. I have been conversing with Lee Heinly who flew Cox's at the Cox Disney Flight Circle between June 1960 and Sept 1965. Lee does not dispute that Ralph Ray designed the PT-19 and says that when he was there, Ralph worked in in the model shop at the plant (on Poinsettia Street in Santa Ana, Calif). Lee said that he learned to fly on the PT-19.

I love this nostalgia stuff.

What would really be cool would be pictures of the Disney Flight circle. Those would be great fun to see!

You take two Cox PT19 wings and glue them together to form a symetrical airfoil. Now you've got something! Then take it out to the flying field to impress your flying pals. That's what a big tall fella did. It would fly inverted with ease if it was launched inverted. Not all ideas are great ones, almost all of this big tall fella's are, but this one went in the trash can. dg (not a big tall fella)