You don't have to use food, flasks or potions while raiding either but show me a serious guild that doesn't consider it mandatory.
If you're a serious raider, you HAVE to do it. It would be the same if lockouts weren't shared.

It's your choice to be in that guild with that kind of progression.

My guild is/was working on heroic ToT, having "re"-formed halfway through ToT. No one is forced to do anything but show up and perform in our group.

Keep kidding yourself. I know what every half-decent guild was like in Wrath and that was with only a few really good items to get by doing it. I wonder what will happen if the gear is equal in both places...

Keep kidding yourself. I know what every half-decent guild was like in Wrath and that was with only a few really good items to get by doing it. I wonder what will happen if the gear is equal in both places...

I'm kidding myself because I have never been in a guild that has never forced me to do anything? If anyone is kidding themselves its those that think they HAVE to do something. In the end it is your choice on what you want to do. If you want to be in a guild that forces you into content, YOU chose that.

Having a lockout system keeps the game more exciting. Running it a few times within the first week will mean it gets very dull, very fast. This would happen to all levels of the playerbase, not just those within the top 1%.

The counter-argument to this though is that we've now got Looking for Raid, Flexible Raiding & Normal / Heroic, which can all be done within the same week (Once all are unlocked). This does mean that we're able to do each raid (although, their difficulty is different) three times per week, and I do genuinely believe we'll see a little increase in burnout from it.

I'm kidding myself because I have never been in a guild that has never forced me to do anything? If anyone is kidding themselves its those that think they HAVE to do something. In the end it is your choice on what you want to do. If you want to be in a guild that forces you into content, YOU chose that.

Why can't you get that it's YOUR opinion and other don't share it ?

As a raider running for top FR I can assure you that I'm willing to do anything that can give me an edge in the race. But I also want to do meaningful content and LFR/Flex, hell even normal, aren't meaningful to me because they are not challenging enough. I have no problem playing 4h/day, 7days a week if it means doing heroic content but I sure as hell don't want to do NM over and over again.

With the addition of Flex you can now run the content 3 times each week, isn't that enough ? Because if it's not, are 4 times going to be enough ? Why not 20 times ?

I'm kidding myself because I have never been in a guild that has never forced me to do anything? If anyone is kidding themselves its those that think they HAVE to do something. In the end it is your choice on what you want to do. If you want to be in a guild that forces you into content, YOU chose that.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I've been in guilds which expected me to do all I could to squeeze as much out of my performance as possible. I've also been in guilds which didn't place these expectations and approached content on a more lackasadial pace. The existence of both kinds of guilds and all those which lie in between isn't a terribly compelling argument, in my opinion, for Blizzard just throw everything into the pot and tell players to pick and choose what content they want to experience; like it or not, the burdens placed on a minority of players by the game and their personal gaming ethos is and should be, at least in a minor capacity, a consideration for Blizzard in regards to shaping content.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I've been in guilds which expected me to do all I could to squeeze as much out of my performance as possible. I've also been in guilds which didn't place these expectations and approached content on a more lackasadial pace. The existence of both kinds of guilds and all those which lie in between isn't a terribly compelling argument, in my opinion, for Blizzard just throw everything into the pot and tell players to pick and choose what content they want to experience; like it or not, the burdens placed on a minority of players by the game and their personal gaming ethos is and should be, at least in a minor capacity, a consideration for Blizzard in regards to shaping content.

The point is you choose what guild you are going to be in. Pretty sure you have to accept the invite before you can join.

The point is you choose what guild you are going to be in. Pretty sure you have to accept the invite before you can join.

The individual experience isn't what is being discussed. We are discussing the wider parameter of instituted lockouts to content for all. As long as there a minority of people who will, whether you agree with their ethos or not, approach content in a very aggressive min/max way it has to a be,at least in some fashion, a consideration for Blizzard.
Like I say, the presence of alternative guilds with differing philosophies isn't a regard in the decision for lockouts.

The individual experience isn't what is being discussed. We are discussing the wider parameter of instituted lockouts to content for all. As long as there a minority of people who will, whether you agree with their ethos or not, approach content in a very aggressive min/max way it has to a be,at least in some fashion, a consideration for Blizzard.
Like I say, the presence of alternative guilds with differing philosophies isn't a regard in the decision for lockouts.

To add to your comment : I'm confident that we're not talking about a minority. IMO anyone who gives a sh*t about heroic progression, people who run NM and people with limited game time are all in the same bag, they'd want to do as much as possible and would feel forced to run the content numerous times a week. If Blizz made the switch in Cata it means that it's a majority of people.
I don't see a lot of people complaining about that so I guess people are happy with how it is today.

The individual experience isn't what is being discussed. We are discussing the wider parameter of instituted lockouts to content for all. As long as there a minority of people who will, whether you agree with their ethos or not, approach content in a very aggressive min/max way it has to a be,at least in some fashion, a consideration for Blizzard.
Like I say, the presence of alternative guilds with differing philosophies isn't a regard in the decision for lockouts.

People don't want shared lockouts because they will forced by their guilds to do all the lockouts.

It's that persons choice to be in that situation.

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Originally Posted by Recom

To add to your comment : I'm confident that we're not talking about a minority. IMO anyone who gives a sh*t about heroic progression, people who run NM and people with limited game time are all in the same bag, they'd want to do as much as possible and would feel forced to run the content numerous times a week. If Blizz made the switch in Cata it means that it's a majority of people.
I don't see a lot of people complaining about that so I guess people are happy with how it is today.

I'm kidding myself because I have never been in a guild that has never forced me to do anything? If anyone is kidding themselves its those that think they HAVE to do something. In the end it is your choice on what you want to do. If you want to be in a guild that forces you into content, YOU chose that.

Under the assumption that it is a decent guild, yes, you're kidding yourself. What the casual players feel they do or do not have to do is frankly the concern of no one because if they want to do more there is always an option to do more. The concern is piling on people who already do what can be done. Why? Because the drive is the result you're getting and if you're a result driven player what can be done has to be done. If you pile on "optional" things you're going to end up in a place where people who enjoy playing for results just don't have the time any more and that's when they'll quit. Yes, quit, not play in a worse guild.

The game isn't going back to the old model because Blizzard understands that what I'm saying is the reality. If you can't see it, you're blind and further arguments are useless. I'm out of this thread, aloha.

If there was no lock out could you imagine how the world first guild would run. They already are required to do 2-3 alt raids to gear toons, but with no lockout they would probably have to raid 5-6 times a day.

tbh i never understood the reason they made 10 and 25 share lockouts ? i enjoyed running 10 and 25 man , and the reason it was changed is because OTHER people thought they were forced to run both to get gear ? no one is forced to do anything , NO one is forced to do LFR , no one is forced to raid , yet they changed this because the minority didnt like something , either bring it back , or make servers with it.

People don't want shared lockouts because they will forced by their guilds to do all the lockouts.

It's that persons choice to be in that situation.

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Then you have a problem, not the game.

You persist to look at a macro problem from the micro angle. Square pegs don't fit into round holes. Approach the question of lockouts from the top down rather than the bottom up and you will see how Blizzard has to manage the differing modes of difficulty and their longevity in regards to retention.

So limit those that can control themselves because some people can't? How is that right?

WTH ? What does this have to do with control ? People do what they want, or has this changed overnight and I didn't get the memo ?

When you play a game, don't you want to get the best skills/gear ? Don't you want to feel as powerful as possible ? You know not everyone farms gear for their guild ? Some do it for themselves, some just enjoy being on top of the game and min/max.

Seriously though, aren't you tired of running the same content over and over again waiting for a patch ? I get bored after 2 months of doing the same instance ONCE every week, 2 or even 3 times would just be pure sadism...

WTH ? What does this have to do with control ? People do what they want, or has this changed overnight and I didn't get the memo ?

When you play a game, don't you want to get the best skills/gear ? Don't you want to feel as powerful as possible ? You know not everyone farms gear for their guild ? Some do it for themselves, some just enjoy being on top of the game and min/max.

Seriously though, aren't tired of running the same content over and over again waiting for a patch ? I get bored after 2 months of doing the same instance ONCE every week, 2 or even 3 times would just be pure sadism...

If I get tired or don't want to do something. I don't... it's really simple. If I want to run more raids I can't because people can't control themselves enough to limit how they play. So in turn blizzard has to limit everyone.