You are right, I can. I should have just left this thread alone earlier but Abigail went with the in-laws on date night (why on earth take her on date night...but I am nt complaining LOL) and I was done with school work.

Yes, I like them and *I* think I am doing great by her. I just don't like being told I am intentiall harming my child (I know you get that all the time, I don't know how you brush it off so gracefully.)

You are right, I can. I should have just left this thread alone earlier but Abigail went with the in-laws on date night (why on earth take her on date night...but I am nt complaining LOL) and I was done with school work.

Yes, I like them and *I* think I am doing great by her. I just don't like being told I am intentiall harming my child (I know you get that all the time, I don't know how you brush it off so gracefully.)

"William Pinsof, a clinical psychologist and president of the Family Institute at Northwestern University said, " Being a little Barbie doll says your body has to be a certain way and your hair has to be a certain way. In girls particularly, this can unleash a whole complex of destructive self-experiences that can lead to eating disorders and all kinds of body distortions in terms of body image." Traveling, stress and competition are everyday aspects of an adult's life, an average day of an adult requires at least these three aspects to make it to lunch hour, but at the age of eight, stress about body ideals, modeling, and trophies should not come into existence. Since there are no set rules concerning promoters, organizers and participants, pageants are neglected by laws governing them. Organizers want to earn money and are not concerned with the need to protect their participants, and they don't. According to Phyllis Coleman, a professor of law at Nova Southeastern University, 3,000 pageants attract 250,000 children per year. According to the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment and Adoption Reform Act, child abuse is defined as, "the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse or exploitation of a child under circumstances which indicate the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened." Most stage mothers claim that their child wanted to enter the pageant on her own. Does an eight-year-old girl know what is best for her? In 1996 seven-year-old Jessica Duboff died when her parents allowed her to fly a plane across the country because she liked it. Should parents rely on their children to know what is best for them?

Child abuse is defined as exploitation of a child, are these parents exploiting their child beauties? On a study done by Levey who researched child beauty pageants of the two to six age group for the Harvard University Gazette, she interviewed forty-one pageant mothers who participate in an average of five pageants per year. Levey concluded that mothers of lower-income and education, enter their children in pageants because they want their children to learn the proper skills necessary to move up the social scale. One stage mother said, "I want my child to be aware that there's going to be somebody better than her. It's a hard thing to learn, it was for me, and I want her to start early." Parents with higher incomes and education beyond high school often justify pageants by explaining that competition is essential for their children to become successful. According to Levey, the upper class mothers want their daughters to become lawyers, doctors or to have professional careers.

"Pageants are hard and you try to remember all those steps, sometimes they give me crowns that are hard to balance", says Gabrielle, a child participant since eleven months of age. At five years old, Gabrielle wants to quit the pageant experience and her mother respects her decision. This stage mother is an opposing example of the aggressive behavior that is confronted throughout the pageants; Gabrielle's mom accepts her decision and honors it. Gabrielle now hopes to start a modeling career, once again no mention of further education. "It's a little girl dream, dreams have to start somewhere", says Dorothy, a sixteen year old, competing for twelve years. That's true, dreams do start from somewhere, maybe a movie, book or even a person, but at the age of four and younger, is it always right to start acting out the dream? Dreams are not always meant to be fulfilled, sometimes they are not in our power to accomplish, but do we need to know the harsh realities of unfulfilled dreams and disappointment at such a tender age. Laws and regulations are needed for this arena; organizers, and worst of all, parents are manipulating innocent kids. Mothers take their kids and live vicariously through them. In order to improve the inadequacy of pageant regulation, every state should pass the bonding law, which states that a deposit is required for new promoters to assert the security of the participants. This only exists in a few states, none of which researched here. There should be guidelines for the hours of work on stage, practice and travel. Organizers should be required to attain a certificate allowing them to work with children. Make-up and hair should be limited as to not enforce sexuality in such a young age. All the participants should receive some kind of an award for participating, reducing the disappointment. Although education is not necessarily effected at the present moment, the participating children do not plan ahead based on their mind but on their appearances, most talked about modeling as the next step. On the A&E Network interview, all the experienced girls, while talking, looked at their stage mothers for reassurance of the last utterance spoken. If the girls were asked a question, the mother sitting very close to her daughter corrected any forgotten words, as if rehearsed."

Fine, back up your point! I'm sure it would be something along the lines of how pageants boost cofidence and build personality. Typical, according to the link I posted.

"William Pinsof, a clinical psychologist and president of the Family Institute at Northwestern University said, " Being a little Barbie doll says your body has to be a certain way and your hair has to be a certain way. In girls particularly, this can unleash a whole complex of destructive self-experiences that can lead to eating disorders and all kinds of body distortions in terms of body image." Traveling, stress and competition are everyday aspects of an adult's life, an average day of an adult requires at least these three aspects to make it to lunch hour, but at the age of eight, stress about body ideals, modeling, and trophies should not come into existence. Since there are no set rules concerning promoters, organizers and participants, pageants are neglected by laws governing them. Organizers want to earn money and are not concerned with the need to protect their participants, and they don't. According to Phyllis Coleman, a professor of law at Nova Southeastern University, 3,000 pageants attract 250,000 children per year. According to the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment and Adoption Reform Act, child abuse is defined as, "the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse or exploitation of a child under circumstances which indicate the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened." Most stage mothers claim that their child wanted to enter the pageant on her own. Does an eight-year-old girl know what is best for her? In 1996 seven-year-old Jessica Duboff died when her parents allowed her to fly a plane across the country because she liked it. Should parents rely on their children to know what is best for them?

Child abuse is defined as exploitation of a child, are these parents exploiting their child beauties? On a study done by Levey who researched child beauty pageants of the two to six age group for the Harvard University Gazette, she interviewed forty-one pageant mothers who participate in an average of five pageants per year. Levey concluded that mothers of lower-income and education, enter their children in pageants because they want their children to learn the proper skills necessary to move up the social scale. One stage mother said, "I want my child to be aware that there's going to be somebody better than her. It's a hard thing to learn, it was for me, and I want her to start early." Parents with higher incomes and education beyond high school often justify pageants by explaining that competition is essential for their children to become successful. According to Levey, the upper class mothers want their daughters to become lawyers, doctors or to have professional careers.

"Pageants are hard and you try to remember all those steps, sometimes they give me crowns that are hard to balance", says Gabrielle, a child participant since eleven months of age. At five years old, Gabrielle wants to quit the pageant experience and her mother respects her decision. This stage mother is an opposing example of the aggressive behavior that is confronted throughout the pageants; Gabrielle's mom accepts her decision and honors it. Gabrielle now hopes to start a modeling career, once again no mention of further education. "It's a little girl dream, dreams have to start somewhere", says Dorothy, a sixteen year old, competing for twelve years. That's true, dreams do start from somewhere, maybe a movie, book or even a person, but at the age of four and younger, is it always right to start acting out the dream? Dreams are not always meant to be fulfilled, sometimes they are not in our power to accomplish, but do we need to know the harsh realities of unfulfilled dreams and disappointment at such a tender age. Laws and regulations are needed for this arena; organizers, and worst of all, parents are manipulating innocent kids. Mothers take their kids and live vicariously through them. In order to improve the inadequacy of pageant regulation, every state should pass the bonding law, which states that a deposit is required for new promoters to assert the security of the participants. This only exists in a few states, none of which researched here. There should be guidelines for the hours of work on stage, practice and travel. Organizers should be required to attain a certificate allowing them to work with children. Make-up and hair should be limited as to not enforce sexuality in such a young age. All the participants should receive some kind of an award for participating, reducing the disappointment. Although education is not necessarily effected at the present moment, the participating children do not plan ahead based on their mind but on their appearances, most talked about modeling as the next step. On the A&E Network interview, all the experienced girls, while talking, looked at their stage mothers for reassurance of the last utterance spoken. If the girls were asked a question, the mother sitting very close to her daughter corrected any forgotten words, as if rehearsed."

First of all, how exactly does one judge a toddler on anything? Personality and poise specifically? Who WOULD do that. That's just sad.

Secondly forcing your child to stand up in front of strangers to be judged on anything would seem traumatic, would it not? Would YOU want to be forced to stand up in front of strangers and be judged on your poise and personality?

I personally wouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure I have a good chance of messing up my kids in other ways, I'd rather not do it purposely.

First of all, how exactly does one judge a toddler on anything? Personality and poise specifically? Who WOULD do that. That's just sad.

Secondly forcing your child to stand up in front of strangers to be judged on anything would seem traumatic, would it not? Would YOU want to be forced to stand up in front of strangers and be judged on your poise and personality?

I personally wouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure I have a good chance of messing up my kids in other ways, I'd rather not do it purposely.

I have to agree with you. A kid wanting to do something is totally different than a parent wanting them to do something. I'm planning on introducing Hunter to a variety of sports and musical instruments to see if he likes doing any of them. But I certainly am not going to force him to do them if he doesn't want to or demand that he be the best at it.

I don't agree with pageants for younger children in the least. They are far, far, far too young for anyone to be judging such trivial things like appearance and "poise". Spend your time teaching your kid useful things like numbers and colors so they can go to kindergarten, not how to walk gracefully with a book balanced on their heads and charm the pants off of people.

I have to agree with you. A kid wanting to do something is totally different than a parent wanting them to do something. I'm planning on introducing Hunter to a variety of sports and musical instruments to see if he likes doing any of them. But I certainly am not going to force him to do them if he doesn't want to or demand that he be the best at it.

I don't agree with pageants for younger children in the least. They are far, far, far too young for anyone to be judging such trivial things like appearance and "poise". Spend your time teaching your kid useful things like numbers and colors so they can go to kindergarten, not how to walk gracefully with a book balanced on their heads and charm the pants off of people.

Yeah man! That was nuts! lol (I love how off topic this got lol). I think both families were a bit of a trainwreck, but hey, to each their own, but if DB ever told me that (I know this wasn't an actual quote but I am summerizing) not wearing makeup was grounds for divorce (he said somthing to the effect of I've seen her without makeup once and refused to again) I'd show him exactly where the door was...lol.

Yeah man! That was nuts! lol (I love how off topic this got lol). I think both families were a bit of a trainwreck, but hey, to each their own, but if DB ever told me that (I know this wasn't an actual quote but I am summerizing) not wearing makeup was grounds for divorce (he said somthing to the effect of I've seen her without makeup once and refused to again) I'd show him exactly where the door was...lol.

My 10 month old has plenty of personality. She'll wave, blow kissses, dance around and smile pretty for the judges. That is what they judge on. Why is it sad?

I do not FORCE my child to stand in front of strangers. We have had one pageant where she cried when I went to stand her up. She didn't want to do it, so I picked her back up and we walked off stage. I didn't FORCE her to do anything. Forcing is wrong.

I am not purposely messing my child up and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insinuate that. If I am not forcing her to do anything and following her cues, explain to me how exactly I am purposely messing my child up.

My 10 month old has plenty of personality. She'll wave, blow kissses, dance around and smile pretty for the judges. That is what they judge on. Why is it sad?

I do not FORCE my child to stand in front of strangers. We have had one pageant where she cried when I went to stand her up. She didn't want to do it, so I picked her back up and we walked off stage. I didn't FORCE her to do anything. Forcing is wrong.

I am not purposely messing my child up and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insinuate that. If I am not forcing her to do anything and following her cues, explain to me how exactly I am purposely messing my child up.

Yes, some child pageants are a little extreme. Yes, some pageant moms are psycho. However, some soccer moms, horse show moms, chess club moms are psycho. You aren't going to stop your child from participating in sports or chess club because it can plausibly cause self esteem problems. In horseback riding, we're told that if we want to get to the higher levels we need to be in good shape, not overweight. You don't see very many hefty soccer players either. So are you going to ban your kid from playing those sports because heavier kids won't do as well, and then those kids might develop self esteem issues? Are you going to keep your kid home from school because there might be smarter kids there that will make your child feel dumb? NO! There is always someone out there who is prettier, smarter, stronger.. learning that is part of life and we all have to deal with it.

Wow, this thread has gone off the deep end.

Yes, some child pageants are a little extreme. Yes, some pageant moms are psycho. However, some soccer moms, horse show moms, chess club moms are psycho. You aren't going to stop your child from participating in sports or chess club because it can plausibly cause self esteem problems. In horseback riding, we're told that if we want to get to the higher levels we need to be in good shape, not overweight. You don't see very many hefty soccer players either. So are you going to ban your kid from playing those sports because heavier kids won't do as well, and then those kids might develop self esteem issues? Are you going to keep your kid home from school because there might be smarter kids there that will make your child feel dumb? NO! There is always someone out there who is prettier, smarter, stronger.. learning that is part of life and we all have to deal with it.

The whole concept makes me sad for the children. My husband's neice has just started on pagents - she's 12, so a little better able to make the decision on her own. But I worry about what it might do to her self-esteem, not to mention her grades and other things. Her grades are dropping (and she's such a smart girl) and she's dropped most of her other activities - violin and gymnastics - to be entrenched in the pagent life. She won some pre-teen thing, which is nice, but I just see it causing more harm than good. Yes, she's pretty and she looks good in an evening gown (TOO good, she looked 30!) but it's all superficial. Looks fade. . . perkiness droops. . . cellulite appears out of nowhere. . . will she have a strong enough sense of who she is outside of her looks to be happy when that happens?

The whole concept makes me sad for the children. My husband's neice has just started on pagents - she's 12, so a little better able to make the decision on her own. But I worry about what it might do to her self-esteem, not to mention her grades and other things. Her grades are dropping (and she's such a smart girl) and she's dropped most of her other activities - violin and gymnastics - to be entrenched in the pagent life. She won some pre-teen thing, which is nice, but I just see it causing more harm than good. Yes, she's pretty and she looks good in an evening gown (TOO good, she looked 30!) but it's all superficial. Looks fade. . . perkiness droops. . . cellulite appears out of nowhere. . . will she have a strong enough sense of who she is outside of her looks to be happy when that happens?

lol aimee... TO ME, it is. I have been very clear that I did not give my child up. The agency usually says "placed your child(ren)" or "made an adoption plan"

And what's even worse... is telling me that I didn't lose anything. I lost my son, I lost my dream of parenting and being mommy, I lost what my life would have been. (Kendra, don't even bother replying, I know how you feel.)

I've explained it before but I will again.-A child is not something you can give up, like a car or a shirt. I did not give my child to an infertile couple to complete their family, nor did I give my child away so that I could live the life I wanted. What I did give is a huge gift to my child. He has wonderful parents who can devote themselves 100% to him - more than I felt I could being a single parent, will be raised with strong morals, resources for learning and development.

lol aimee... TO ME, it is. I have been very clear that I did not give my child up. The agency usually says "placed your child(ren)" or "made an adoption plan"

And what's even worse... is telling me that I didn't lose anything. I lost my son, I lost my dream of parenting and being mommy, I lost what my life would have been. (Kendra, don't even bother replying, I know how you feel.)

I've explained it before but I will again.-A child is not something you can give up, like a car or a shirt. I did not give my child to an infertile couple to complete their family, nor did I give my child away so that I could live the life I wanted. What I did give is a huge gift to my child. He has wonderful parents who can devote themselves 100% to him - more than I felt I could being a single parent, will be raised with strong morals, resources for learning and development.

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