From spike at rainier66.com Mon Jul 1 01:17:27 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 18:17:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
<51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
>...And conversely, TeliaSonera International Carrier is a Tier 1 internet
backbone with headquarters in Stockholm. By law the Swedish Defence Radio
Authority can warrantlessly wiretap all telephone and Internet traffic that
crosses Sweden's borders. But don't worry, they only act in the national
interest... -- Dr Anders Sandberg
_______________________________________________
It can safely be said that the framers of the US constitution did not
foresee the internet. If they put into place restrictions on the federal
government surveillance of its people, no such restriction forbids them from
trading for the data from the German government, and providing in exchange
US surveillance of the German people. In the internet age, there is no
hiding. The only thing that surprises me in all this is that we saw it
coming fifteen years ago and did nothing. We just walked right into it.
We now have a situation where the citizen cannot hide anything, but the
governments, all of them, can hide everything. The IRS gives the fed an
easy end-run around all our constitutional rights, for it can call any
citizen in for an audit for no reason, can deal out any punishment, fine or
sentence without having to provide evidence or justification to any
oversight commission, and if called upon to defend its actions, even by the
congress, it may invoke the fifth amendment rights and thus avoid testimony.
Orwell wrote about this in 1949, but we walked right into it. We learned
not one goddam thing from that man's astute foresights and insights.
Note that the IRS has been caught in all this, and nothing is happening;
there are no adverse consequences for the power abusers, none. The
offending director is on paid leave. Now a second IRS director has invoked
the fifth; as punishment he has been given an indefinite paid vacation. We
walked right into this. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
spike
From spike at rainier66.com Mon Jul 1 03:48:39 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of spike
>...Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 3:52 PM, spike wrote:
>>... It is clear to me now what I should have pondered a bit more to
>>start with: 23andMe empowers people and governments... spike
>...Thank you for sharing your buyer's remorse... Mike
_______________________________________________
Daaaaaaaam! It's happened again! And this time it was an accident.
23andMe gives you a list of DNA relatives sorted by how close they are
genetically. It also gives you a list sorted by what they call "enrichment"
which divides thru by how common is the name.
New people have been coming into 23 on a regular basis. Yesterday a new
person showed up way high up in my list: he is my second closest relative on
23andMe, probably a third cousin, possibly second. I went over to the
enrichment page and saw that right when he showed up, two names of which I
know are related and how they are related moved way up. They had been in
positions 27 and 41, but yesterday they moved into positions 2 and 3. OK,
that wasn't hard to figure out: he is related to those to names.
So last night I drop the guy a note along the lines of Hi cousin, I see you
are descended from William Yakity Yak and Mary Bla Bla. This morning I get
a note back saying he doesn't have either of those in his family history
database which goes back four generations.
OK so do I post back and say: Ooops sorry my mistake, or do I post back and
say: Cousin, you have a major error in your genealogy, or do I post back and
say: Pal, one of your fairly recent ancestors was apparently adopted?
My intuition says to just clam up.
At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your life
to get crazy, don't do 23andMe.
spike
From spike at rainier66.com Mon Jul 1 05:54:22 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:54:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <008b01ce761f$6fc72930$4f557b90$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of spike
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
_______________________________________________
>...Daaaaaaaam! It's happened again! And this time it was an accident.
...
>...At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your
life to get crazy, don't do 23andMe...spike
_______________________________________________
Alternately, you have the option of not responding to any 23-mail.
After what I have been thru, I make the following prediction: 23andMe will
eventually end up being shut down by a tsunami of lawsuits. I do not regret
that I did 23andMe, but in retrospect, I probably would have done it
completely anonymously and would never have responded to any 23-mail. Even
then, I don't know if anonymous non-response is the right thing to do. I am
open to suggestion.
Yet another belated realization: just as I am getting better at extracting
information from just what is currently public on 23andMe, it is easy to
extrapolate forward and realize that once the power of capitalism gets
behind it, the medical discoveries will come fast, and the discoveries will
be in the hands of medical insurance companies. They will figure out ways
to study the information publicly available and how to correlate it with
known diseases. This will lead them to offer discounts to those who agree
to submitting DNA. The result of that will be increased insurance costs for
those who do not submit the DNA, for the insurance company will need to
assume that you privately did your own testing and that you know something
the insurance company doesn't know. You will have no way of proving you
didn't do genetic testing. Eventually even those companies which offer
insurance to non-DNA submitters will realize that this is a fool's bet, and
will want out of the biz.
All these ethical dilemmas just make me too crazy. I decided against
medical school because I am no good at ethical dilemmas. Aerospace
engineering is blessedly free of that. With this 23 jazz, I accidently
signed up for a pile of them. Understatement: I paid 99 bucks for a deep
pile of ethical dilemmas. What a bargain, sheesh.
spike
From atymes at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 06:09:10 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:09:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID:
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 8:48 PM, spike wrote:
> At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your
> life
> to get crazy, don't do 23andMe.
>
For people like you and me, crazy lives are a given.
23andMe is just a specific vector.
As to this case - are you sure you have the right
person, and not just a name that could be used
by someone else (which someone else has the
genes and ancestry you're looking for)?
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From anders at aleph.se Mon Jul 1 08:56:31 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 09:56:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
<51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se> <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D1443F.5040500@aleph.se>
On 2013-07-01 02:17, spike wrote:
> The only thing that surprises me in all this is that we saw it coming
> fifteen years ago and did nothing. We just walked right into it.
I just came back from a workshop on governing slowly devloping risks at
the International Risk Governance Council, and I think this is generic:
it takes special conditions for enough of the right people to sit up and
take action.
In particular, it doesn't seem to work well if there are vested
interests on different sides. The Grand Banks cod fisheries and climate
change have turned into messes because of opposing interests, while Y2K
got fixed. Surveillance and constitutional erosion unfortunately also
had the multiple interests case.
--
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University
From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jul 1 10:59:37 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:59:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <20130701105937.GA24217@leitl.org>
On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 08:30:45AM -0700, spike wrote:
> Eugen, the good news is that the German government is not tapping your phone
> calls.
>
> The bad news is.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/u-taps-half-billion-german-phone-internet-links-093938
> 180.html
As a late first/second-gen cypherpunk and long-term student of
NSA history I continue to be amused by mainstream press reports
which take recent revelations as something a) new b) you can take
verbatim, without a giant grain of salt.
However, I welcome such opportunities to wean users from
the teat of TeH Great GooG, and cloud in general. E.g. over
at Zero State we've moved over everything to a virtual
server hosted in Iceland, and everything else to P2P
(Retroshare et al.).
The legislative has failed, cryptography so far hasn't.
From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jul 1 12:47:41 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 14:47:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
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<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
Il 01/07/2013 05:48, spike ha scritto:
> Daaaaaaaam! It's happened again! And this time it was an accident.
> 23andMe gives you a list of DNA relatives sorted by how close they are
> genetically. It also gives you a list sorted by what they call "enrichment"
> which divides thru by how common is the name.
> So last night I drop the guy a note along the lines of Hi cousin, I see you
> are descended from William Yakity Yak and Mary Bla Bla. This morning I get
> a note back saying he doesn't have either of those in his family history
> database which goes back four generations.
> OK so do I post back and say: Ooops sorry my mistake, or do I post back and
> say: Cousin, you have a major error in your genealogy, or do I post back and
> say: Pal, one of your fairly recent ancestors was apparently adopted?
I suggest the:
Maybe 23andMe is wrong or there is an error in my or your genealogy.
What could be?
Do you want try to exchange data?
> My intuition says to just clam up.
The truth will make you free(er).
As you didn't anything evil or wrong, what's the problem with the true?
> At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your life
> to get crazy, don't do 23andMe.
Crazy in this way appear good or, at least, interesting. Maybe a bit
overwhelming at first.
Just until a few weeks ago you talked about Neanderthal gathering to
look at similarity and to look at non-Neanderthal gatherings for
differences.
Think about a reunion of all Pocahontas descendants, or all descendants
of George Washington.
How funny would be all the hidden branches showed off?
Mirco
From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 13:23:43 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 14:23:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
<51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
Message-ID:
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> The truth will make you free(er).
> As you didn't anything evil or wrong, what's the problem with the true?
>
> Crazy in this way appear good or, at least, interesting. Maybe a bit
> overwhelming at first.
>
The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for survival.
We can't get through the day without lying.
'Does my bum look big in this?'.
'What speed were you going at?'.
'Do you think Sharon is the best person for this job?'.
etc. up to really serious lies about life and death.
This is especially true in families. All families have secrets that
are never mentioned in order to keep the peace. The theory being that
the family must stick together, even when some members are not of
particularly good character.
Broadcasting the truth could cause the breakup of families. Feuds
happen often enough anyway, without added disruption.
BillK
From alito at organicrobot.com Mon Jul 1 13:30:58 2013
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 23:30:58 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
Message-ID: <51D18492.1060002@organicrobot.com>
On 01/07/13 22:47, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> Il 01/07/2013 05:48, spike ha scritto:
>
>> Daaaaaaaam! It's happened again! And this time it was an accident.
>
>> 23andMe gives you a list of DNA relatives sorted by how close they are
>> genetically. It also gives you a list sorted by what they call "enrichment"
>> which divides thru by how common is the name.
>
>> So last night I drop the guy a note along the lines of Hi cousin, I see you
>> are descended from William Yakity Yak and Mary Bla Bla. This morning I get
>> a note back saying he doesn't have either of those in his family history
>> database which goes back four generations.
>
>> OK so do I post back and say: Ooops sorry my mistake, or do I post back and
>> say: Cousin, you have a major error in your genealogy, or do I post back and
>> say: Pal, one of your fairly recent ancestors was apparently adopted?
>
> I suggest the:
>
> Maybe 23andMe is wrong or there is an error in my or your genealogy.
> What could be?
> Do you want try to exchange data?
>
I think the possibility that 23andme is "in error" should be considered
seriously, not just as a method of releasing information on unsuspecting
relatives. I put the quotes around "in error" because I mean not just
lab-handling errors, but historical anomalies that make genetic tests
indicate closer kinship distance than there is in reality ***.
For example, it is well known (TM) that most of the relationships shown
on 23andme for Ashkenazis are rubbish due to the deep inbreeding in that
group. eg from their blog
http://blog.23andme.com/news/announcements/how-many-relatives-do-you-have/,
they say "we estimate that any two randomly chosen individuals who
identify as Ashkenazi are on average the genomic equivalent of 4th-5th
cousins, because they share many recent common ancestor". 23andme will
list scores of 2nd cousins which you are pretty sure are nowhere near
that close.
My guess is that there is likely to be other groups that are similarly
affected. Any geographically isolated community, or any small,
long-lasting religious group should show similar effects.
*** reality here is probably the wrong term, but I assume that, for most
people, someone that, due to historical reasons, shares the same amount
of genetic material as a second cousin doesn't have the same emotional
or gossip-al power as someone you share a great-grandmother with.
From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jul 1 13:51:28 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 15:51:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To:
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
Message-ID: <51D18960.3030503@libero.it>
Il 01/07/2013 15:23, BillK ha scritto:
> The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for survival.
Being an advocate for truth, I would choose truth over society.
If society is so dependent on lies to survive, maybe it should not
survive and will not survive anyway.
> We can't get through the day without lying.
> 'Does my bum look big in this?'.
> 'What speed were you going at?'.
> 'Do you think Sharon is the best person for this job?'.
> etc. up to really serious lies about life and death.
Maybe this is just cultural, maybe genetic.
But the level of frankness in public and private discourses in Italy is
a bit higher than in the US ( the Anglosphere in general).
Maybe is a reaction to the total hypocrisy in the political discourses.
> This is especially true in families. All families have secrets that
> are never mentioned in order to keep the peace. The theory being that
> the family must stick together, even when some members are not of
> particularly good character.
A frail family I should say, if its secrets can not be spoken in the
privacy of the house.
A strong family will speak them if needed and useful and will not spoke
them when not needed or not useful or harmful.
> Broadcasting the truth could cause the breakup of families. Feuds
> happen often enough anyway, without added disruption.
But, in the end, if broadcasting the truth do not happen, shit will
happen just because the truth was not told.
It is the short-term / long-term gains dilemma.
Mirco
From rolandodegilead at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 09:35:11 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:35:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
<51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se> <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID:
>
> Note that the IRS has been caught in all this, and nothing is happening;
> there are no adverse consequences for the power abusers, none. The
> offending director is on paid leave. Now a second IRS director has invoked
> the fifth; as punishment he has been given an indefinite paid vacation. We
> walked right into this. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
>
I suppose that you have seen this short comic:
http://nosolosoftware.com/huxley-vs-orwell/
The problem is exactly that: No adverse consequences. I see it in my
country and in every European country: No adverse consequences for the ones
who have created the crisis, no adverse consequences for the partys who
have stolen millions. In fact, sometimes is the opposite: In Spain, the
government, the Popular Party (Aznar?s party) has been proved to erase
millions and millions. And they are voted again and again and again. Not
only no adverse consequences but, even prized for them.
And I think that, at least in Europe, 15M is partially to blame for that:
They are seen as a romantic non-violent movement who were tired of the
abuse of the powerful ones, but they were born, in fact, because Ley Sinde
(The Spanish equivalent to Sopa). They do NOTHING but they say that they do
a lot of things. A lot of people saying that they are the change and the
future, so they are neutralizing all other real responses.
There are videos of policemen hitting and hitting again demonstrators whose
only defence is saying "Ey pal, Say no to violence". So policemen, at least
in Europe, Specially in Spain, they are doing whatever they want, because
they can, because there is not going to be a social reaction apart from
demostrators who are going to scream and who are against any kind of
violence of any kind of illegality. Not even civil disobedence.
Sorry for my english.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 3:17 AM, spike wrote:
>
> >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
> Subject: Re: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
>
> >...And conversely, TeliaSonera International Carrier is a Tier 1 internet
> backbone with headquarters in Stockholm. By law the Swedish Defence Radio
> Authority can warrantlessly wiretap all telephone and Internet traffic that
> crosses Sweden's borders. But don't worry, they only act in the national
> interest... -- Dr Anders Sandberg
> _______________________________________________
>
> It can safely be said that the framers of the US constitution did not
> foresee the internet. If they put into place restrictions on the federal
> government surveillance of its people, no such restriction forbids them
> from
> trading for the data from the German government, and providing in exchange
> US surveillance of the German people. In the internet age, there is no
> hiding. The only thing that surprises me in all this is that we saw it
> coming fifteen years ago and did nothing. We just walked right into it.
>
> We now have a situation where the citizen cannot hide anything, but the
> governments, all of them, can hide everything. The IRS gives the fed an
> easy end-run around all our constitutional rights, for it can call any
> citizen in for an audit for no reason, can deal out any punishment, fine or
> sentence without having to provide evidence or justification to any
> oversight commission, and if called upon to defend its actions, even by the
> congress, it may invoke the fifth amendment rights and thus avoid
> testimony.
>
> Orwell wrote about this in 1949, but we walked right into it. We learned
> not one goddam thing from that man's astute foresights and insights.
>
> Note that the IRS has been caught in all this, and nothing is happening;
> there are no adverse consequences for the power abusers, none. The
> offending director is on paid leave. Now a second IRS director has invoked
> the fifth; as punishment he has been given an indefinite paid vacation. We
> walked right into this. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
--
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From spike at rainier66.com Mon Jul 1 15:54:36 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:54:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To:
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
Message-ID: <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
>
>>... The truth will make you free(er). As you didn't anything evil or
wrong, what's the problem with the true? Mirco
>
>...The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for survival.
We can't get through the day without lying. ...This is especially true in
families. All families have secrets ...
Broadcasting the truth could cause the breakup of families. Feuds happen
often enough anyway, without added disruption...BillK
_______________________________________________
Of course there is always the possibility of a mistake, as pointed out by
other posters on this topic. But if a mistake, I don't know how 23andMe
would have known those two particular family names married in 1840 and
produced several children, some of whom cannot be accounted for in later
years. The fact that those two names moved together to positions 2 and 3 in
one day, the same day that a new person showed up as my second closest DNA
relative on 23 is compelling evidence that either an offspring of that union
produced a child who was adopted out and not told, or that an offspring of
that union fathered a child secretly.
In any case, I think BillK is right on. Nature is filled with examples of
wildlife using camouflage and deception, so it should come as no surprise
that human society is deeply dependent on it. 23andMe exposes lies and lays
bare secrets long cherished.
It is my prediction that by whatever mysterious or overt means, 23andMe will
be shut down. I don't know how, but possibilities include massive waves of
lawsuits from which it must defend even if frivolous, inexplicable IRS
audits, predator drones armed with hellfire missiles, etc. Society and
government is filled with people dependent on lies and secrecy; judges,
legislators, religious leaders, IRS directors all have the possibility of
illegitimate children too. It is easy to imagine them working together,
using whatever means available, legal or illegal, to stop 23. I hope that
23andMe can withstand all the pressures, but I fear it cannot.
Here's how you will know I am right. Watch for legislation making it
illegal to do health insurance pricing based on DNA. If that fails, look
for societal pressure in the form of bad PR for any company suspected of
offering health insurance discounts based on DNA sampling.
spike
From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Jul 1 16:52:39 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 18:52:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D1B3D7.7020606@libero.it>
Il 01/07/2013 17:54, spike ha scritto:
> Of course there is always the possibility of a mistake, as pointed out by
> other posters on this topic.
Usually, hinting the mistake could be your or someone else's is a good
way to lower their defenses and allow communication to happen.
> In any case, I think BillK is right on. Nature is filled with examples of
> wildlife using camouflage and deception, so it should come as no surprise
> that human society is deeply dependent on it. 23andMe exposes lies and lays
> bare secrets long cherished.
Good.
> It is my prediction that by whatever mysterious or overt means, 23andMe will
> be shut down.
To be substituted by one of many business doing the same from some
island of Caribbeans or from China.
> I don't know how, but possibilities include massive waves of
> lawsuits from which it must defend even if frivolous, inexplicable IRS
> audits, predator drones armed with hellfire missiles, etc.
The majority of the people is not able to pay a lawyer for this.
Not if the jurisdiction is in some remote part of the US (say, Alaska)
or abroad (say Cambodia)
> Society and
> government is filled with people dependent on lies and secrecy; judges,
> legislators, religious leaders, IRS directors all have the possibility of
> illegitimate children too. It is easy to imagine them working together,
> using whatever means available, legal or illegal, to stop 23. I hope that
> 23andMe can withstand all the pressures, but I fear it cannot.
The problems for these types to band together are multiple:
1) they should in some way know they have illegitimate children or relatives
2) they should, in some way, trust their allies to not exploit their
admitted weakness
3) they should think they have a reasonable risk/reward ratio acting
against 23andme
Problem is, with 23andMe, the R/R ration go from negligible to
overwhelming in just few weeks. Not fast enough to mount any legal or
illegal defense.
> Here's how you will know I am right. Watch for legislation making it
> illegal to do health insurance pricing based on DNA. If that fails, look
> for societal pressure in the form of bad PR for any company suspected of
> offering health insurance discounts based on DNA sampling.
I think the US obsession with health insurance is amusing.
I suppose it is based on the deep, probably unconscious, understanding
that the system is broken and it is falling apart at the seams.
But, if you understand and accept there is nothing you could do to
change this outcome, you will find the good side is a new better system
could be built in its place.
Mirco
p.s.
The Italian health service (SSN) is broken as much as the US system (and
I work for it). No way to fix it.
To many lies, not enough people willing to tell the bitter truth.
So it will go along until it will not. And when it fall apart no one
will be interested in rebuilt it again.
From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 17:48:15 2013
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 13:48:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
Message-ID:
http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366
Or, to put it concisely, libertarians are the calm, independent,
curious truth-seekers (non-neurotic, open to experience
systematizers), essentially the opposite of liberals (neurotic,
non-conscientious, extraverted, agreeable, envious non-systematizers =
hypocritical social strivers), and pretty far from conservatives
(agreeable, conscientious, not open to experience = socially
constrained followers).
Rafal
From gsantostasi at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 18:30:58 2013
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 13:30:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
Many transhumanist now are closer to liberal views than libertarian ones.
I will write more about this but I want to point out that your views on
liberals are narrow and biased.
Giovanni
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366
>
> Or, to put it concisely, libertarians are the calm, independent,
> curious truth-seekers (non-neurotic, open to experience
> systematizers), essentially the opposite of liberals (neurotic,
> non-conscientious, extraverted, agreeable, envious non-systematizers =
> hypocritical social strivers), and pretty far from conservatives
> (agreeable, conscientious, not open to experience = socially
> constrained followers).
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 19:15:45 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 21:15:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
What? What a definition...
The hermeneutics of this word is hard, because in Europe, usually, saying
liberal we mean "Neocon" or ultracapitalist while in USA you call liberal
to the leftwinged.
I think that liberal, in the european sense, is not compatible with
transhumanism, nor with any branch of humanism.
Sorry for my english
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
wrote:
> Many transhumanist now are closer to liberal views than libertarian ones.
> I will write more about this but I want to point out that your views on
> liberals are narrow and biased.
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality
>>
>> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366
>>
>> Or, to put it concisely, libertarians are the calm, independent,
>> curious truth-seekers (non-neurotic, open to experience
>> systematizers), essentially the opposite of liberals (neurotic,
>> non-conscientious, extraverted, agreeable, envious non-systematizers =
>> hypocritical social strivers), and pretty far from conservatives
>> (agreeable, conscientious, not open to experience = socially
>> constrained followers).
>>
>> Rafal
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
--
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 1 19:37:59 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
Message-ID: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
You might get a new head someday, but you won't know about it.
First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says neuroscientist
http://qz.com/99413/first-ever-human-head-transplant-is-now-possible-says-neuroscientist/
-gts
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From anders at aleph.se Mon Jul 1 22:06:37 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 23:06:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
On 2013-07-01 20:15, Eugenio Mart?nez wrote:
> What? What a definition...
>
> The hermeneutics of this word is hard, because in Europe, usually,
> saying liberal we mean "Neocon" or ultracapitalist while in USA you
> call liberal to the leftwinged.
>
> I think that liberal, in the european sense, is not compatible with
> transhumanism, nor with any branch of humanism.
Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and Hayek
were roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of their own
lives, collectives do not have any moral value in themselves, and that
governments are dangerous imperfect tools that should be used
(carefully) only for the purposes to which they are suited?
Sure, there are plenty of disagreements on these ideas, but it seems
hard to argue that they are counter to transhumanism or humanism.
--
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 22:16:04 2013
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:16:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How a total n00b mined $700 in bitcoins
Message-ID:
Thought this might interest a few of you who have been discussing Bitcoins.
Apologies for any discontinuity in the article, as I had to remove numerous
embedded photos. url:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/06/how-a-total-n00b-mined-700-in-bitcoins/
James
How a total n00b mined $700 in bitcoins
We take a Butterfly Labs Bitcoin miner, plug it in, and make it (virtually)
rain.
This is the second in a two-part series exploring Butterfly Labs and its
lineup of dedicated Bitcoin-mining hardware. In part one, we looked at the
company and
the experiences customers have had with it. In part two, we share our
experiences running a Bitcoin miner for a couple weeks.
There is a whirring, whining presence in my dining room. I notice it every
time I walk through. Every day, it sucks down about one full kilowatt-hour
of electricity. In a year, it will consume almost $100 worth of juice?and
that's on top of the $274 it costs to buy the box in the first place. Oh,
and it's hot, too. If I moved it into my office and could stand the noise,
I could keep a cup of coffee comfortably warm on top of the thing. Why on
earth would anyone want such a disagreeable little machine in their home?
The short answer: every day, that machine magically generates something
like $20 in bitcoins.
The BFL miner: A video intro
Allow me to introduce you to the Butterfly Labs 5GH/s "Jalape?o" Bitcoin
miner.
A newbie and his miner
Ars Senior Business Editor Cyrus Farivar tapped me on the shoulder a few
weeks back with a proposition. "I've got a Butterfly Labs Bitcoin mining
box," he explained. "There aren't that many in the wild right now. I'm
working on a story about the company, but I'm about to go on vacation. Do
you want to see if you can get the thing working while I'm out?"
I was intrigued. Bitcoin? That's the electronic currency that's quickly
rocketed from lame nerd project to ludicrously valuable hot topic, right? I
didn't know a lot about the world of Bitcoin other than the fact that
"mining" them involved people building custom PCs with tons of video cards
to handle the math. I certainly didn't know how to "mine" bitcoins myself
or what to *do* with the things once I had them. I just knew that people
eventually try to trade them in for cash somehow (but how to do *that* was
also a total mystery).
And yet here was the opportunity to take a piece of hardware I'd never
heard of and see if I could use it to magically create some money out of
nowhere. I told Cyrus to send me the Butterfly Labs miner. As he trekked
off to Peru for his vacation, I settled in with the little black box.
Butterfly Labs is a company that has drawn a fair amount of controversy for
what the Bitcoin community at large perceives as a string of broken promises
.The company sells ASIC-based Bitcoin miners?machines that are built around
customized chips that do nothing except compute SHA-256
hashes
very quickly.Its smallest miner (the one I had to get working) is codenamed
"Jalape?o" and computes a bit over five billion hashes per second (or 5GH/s)
. The problem is that Butterfly Labs started selling the machines long
before it actually had a product to sell. It began taking paid-in-full
preorders back in mid-2012, and thousands of customers opened their wallets
for Bitcoin miners ranging from the small 5GH/s miner at $274 all the way
up to the large 500Gh/s miner, which costs $22,484.
Butterfly Labs promised certain performance targets to customers?it
initially felt confident that its application-specific integrated circuit
(ASIC) designs would deliver one billion hashes per second for every 1.1
watt of power consumed. This proved extremely optimistic. Hardware delivery
slipped multiple times. Now, a full year later, the first few real live
Butterfly Labs boxes are finally being shipped, though no small number (as
many as 30) were sent to journalists to review rather than to paying
customers.
B ut when the little black box showed up on my doorstep, I had no idea
about the deep and extremely vocal Bitcoin community or the story behind
Butterfly Labs. I didn't really even fully understand what the miner did. I
simply knew that I wanted to get this thing working and make some money.
Out of the box
The 5GH/s Jalape?o miner is a black rounded cube with a brushed metal finish
.The only connectors on the exterior of the device are on the back: a
mini-USB port for data and a power plug. Near the power plug are a series
of small red LEDs that the device uses to tell you its status, though there
was no documentation in the box to explain what the LEDs meant. The front
of the cube contains another red LED to indicate power.
There are two sets of vents, one low on the front and the other high on the
rear.The device's internal 80 mm fan draws cooler air up from the front
through the fins of the large heat sink mounted on the ASIC chip. It expels
the now-warm air out through the top vents.
Front view of the Butterfly Labs 5GH/s Jalape?o miner. The understated
Butterfly Labs logo is on the top of the device; visible on its front are
the air intake vents.
After I unboxed the thing and took some photos, I was sort of stuck. I had
no idea what to *do* with the little rounded-off cube.
Before I consulted the Internet for documentation, I tried briefly?and in
vain?to see if I could make it work on my own. "I am a geek, and I work at
Ars Technica, which is a major technology website of some renown," I thought
. "I have built Web servers. I use, like, Linux and stuff. How hard can
this really be?"
Too hard, apparently. Connecting it via USB to any of the computers I had
handy didn't really cause anything to happen. The device showed up on the
USB bus and identified itself, but it didn't *do* anything. I naively
wondered if there was some kind of application I needed to download to "log
on" to the device to get it mining.
When connected via USB, the miner shows up as a "BitFORCE SHA256 SC," which
is the ASIC identifier.
Lee Hutchinson
I admitted defeat and consulted the Internet. Unfortunately, as I was to
quickly learn, I was coming at the miner with a certain set of false
assumptions. The BFL miner is a pretty simple device; it doesn't have an
"interface" or a console or anything like that at all. It talks via
serial-over-USB, and you do need an application running on your computer to
actually do anything with it.
In fact, you need several things: a mining application, a "wallet," and a
"pool," though the pool is optional.
The prerequisites
The first thing I needed to do was to set up a wallet, or a place to keep
my bitcoins. A wallet lets you engage in Bitcoin transactions?it lets you
create Bitcoin *addresses* you can share and that people can send money to. In
addition to being able to send and receive bitcoins to and from other
Bitcoin users, you need a wallet so that you've got somewhere to keep the
bitcoins you generate through mining. I wound up creating my wallet at
Blockchain.info , though there are many
alternatives.
Once you've got a wallet, you really ought to join a mining pool because
Bitcoin mining is best done with shared labor. Nothing at all forbids you
from striking out on your own, but the nature of the entire virtual
currency system is such that by sharing the work required for "discovering"
the currency, you share in the reward as well.
Understanding how bitcoins are brought into being requires understanding
the network behind the currency. Briefly, the entire record of every
Bitcoin transaction ever made stretching back to the currency's beginning
is public. This is called the *block chain*. Bitcoin mining involves
confirming those transactions by collecting several of them together into a
group called a *block* and running specific cryptographic functions on it.
The *chain* concept comes into play because every time a bitcoin is
"spent," the spender appends a hash to the bitcoin derived from his or her
own cryptographic private key, the previous transaction's hash, and the
recipient's cryptographic public key. As each bit of data added to
Bitcoin's history of transactions is cryptographically derived from
previous data, altering earlier data would invalidate the entire chain.
When a collected block of transactions is confirmed by a Bitcoin miner?that
is, when the SHA-256 hashing that the miners are doing on a transaction
results in a very specific value that starts with a number of zeros?the
block is said to have been "mined." The winning miner is allowed to reward
itself with some number of bitcoins. That number is currently 25, and it
decreases by 50 percent in intervals over time.
If you're mining in a pool, you split the reward with the other members of
your pool based on the pool's specific rules. If you're mining by yourself,
you keep the entire payout. The issue with mining by oneself is that it's
very likely to take you much, much longer to confirm a block than it would
with an entire pool's resources. Joining a pool is the way to faster
payouts of bitcoins.
Mining!
Because I can never do anything the easy way, I wasn't content with getting
the BFL box working under Windows, which is a well-documented and fairly
straightforward process. No, I wanted to make it work under OS X. That
required a bit of help.
I spent quite a bit of time talking with John O'Mara, creator of the
MacMiner application for mining
bitcoins on a Mac. MacMiner is a FOSS GUI wrapper
that
uses another FOSS application, bfgminer ,
to tell the mining hardware (be it video cards or separate ASIC-based
boxes) what to do. In the end, the solution involved a lot of work on
John's part and not really that much on mine, except for me running
commands and reporting back their results.
Because Butterfly Labs miners are still relatively scarce in the wild, John
didn't have one to test with. Still, using me as a (dumb) remote
manipulator, we eventually got the BFL box correctly hooked up and mining. The
release version of MacMiner supports the Butterfly Labs ASIC miners now,
but since I had gotten it working first on the command line, that's what I
stuck with.
In fact, once it worked, it was a little anticlimactic. I typed in the
command and the bash prompt to kick the miner off. Rather than spitting out
an error like it had been doing, the screen lit up in a deliciously cryptic
display.
We are now mining. There are numbers happening.
Lee Hutchinson
Numbers. Lots of numbers everywhere. I stared at it for long seconds,
watching the updates crawl upward from the bottom of the screen. *Am I
actually mining?* I wondered. *Is money happening?* I envisioned my little
MacBook Air lighting up like a slot machine if I found an actual block. Would
sirens go off? Would money shoot out?
I quickly shared a screenshot with the rest of the Ars team in IRC. "IS
THIS GOOD?!" I asked. No one really knew.
I kept staring at the numbers, not yet willing to glance at bfgminer's
documentation to
see what they meant. All I knew is that there were lots of counters and
things on my screen, and I wanted them to be *higher*. I had a sudden
flashback to my first job out of college in 2000, when I dragged 20 unused
Pentium II PCs into a corner and rigged them all up with the
SETI at Homeclient and briefly became an ET-searching superstar
.
Performance, noise, heat
The BFL miner does precisely one thing: compute SHA-256 hashes as fast as
it can. So from a benchmarking perspective, the main question to answer is
whether or not it hits its rated target of five billion hashes per second.
When hashing, the BFL miner actually hovers at between 5.4-5.6GH/sec,
delivering a bit more than its rated amount of hashes per second. The
device pulled about 30 watts of power when idle and 50 watts of power when
actively hashing. It reported internal temperatures as high as 80C.
Some back-of-the-napkin math based on my Kill-a-Watt meter's readings show
that the device would consume a bit under $100 per year in
electricity. However,
at current Bitcoin mining difficulty levels, it produces about 0.1 BTC
about every 12 hours. It's impossible to speculate on BTC-to-dollar rates
in the future since they're so volatile. But at the exchange rates that
were current as I was piecing this article together, the miner had repaid
its purchase price *within ten days*. If the value and difficulty of BTC
holds, an ASIC-based miner like this could generate thousands of dollars of
revenue per year.
Cashing out
After a couple of days tinkering with the box to actually get it mining, it
was kind of a letdown. The box made noise and consumed a bit of
electricity; every 12 hours or so I would get a notice in e-mail from
Blockchain.info, letting me know that another ~0.1BTC had been deposited
into my account thanks to the combined efforts of me and the rest of the
pool I'd joined . It definitely worked. It was
not a scam. It was a legitimate 5GH/s miner.
The Ars editorial team had resolved even before I plugged in the device
that we'd be donating any monies it generated to the EFF. So after I'd
gotten a representative sample of bitcoins, I was ready to stop and
donate. However,
there was still one major aspect of Bitcoin mining that wasn't terribly
clear to me. How, exactly, does one *cash out?*
Before I donated the fruits of the miner's labor, I resolved to actually
take the bitcoin generation through to the end I'd been wondering about. At
this point, which was the last week in May, the little BFL box had
generated precisely 2.90220929 BTC. I would take those bitcoins and turn
them into cold, hard cash.
I quickly learned that transforming BTC into USD wasn't a single-step
process.There's no "cash out" button; rather, you must either arrange a
transaction yourself with a private party or sell your BTC through an *
exchange*. I started withthe list of exchanges
on
the Bitcoin wiki to get a feel for my options.
The most famous exchange is MtGox , but looking at its
options for withdrawing funds quickly turned me away. Most exchanges allow
you to sell your BTC for US dollars, but few provide a way to retrieve your
dollars that I felt comfortable using. Many allow you to transfer dollars
to a PayPal account, but I don't use PayPal. Others let you pull money
directly into a personal checking account via ACH or wire transfer, but I
wasn't willing to share my bank account details or open a new throwaway
checking account. Some exchanges, including MtGox, allow you to withdraw
dollars using Dwolla (no thanks) or Liberty
Reserve (too
late).
Finally, a little way down the list, I noticed one exchange with the option
to withdraw funds in the form of USPS money orders: Camp BX
.
I popped over to its site and established an account, then I generated an
address to receive the bitcoins. Back over at my Blockchain.info wallet, I
clicked the "Send Money" option, entered the address I'd generated for my
Camp BX account, selected my entire store of 2.90220929 bitcoins, and hit
"Send Payment."
The transaction went through. I'd just created some work for the legions of
other Bitcoin miners to verify. Several minutes later, the balance showed
up in my Camp BX account. Somewhere else, a new block of 25 bitcoins was
awarded and spread around as incentive for helping validate my transaction. The
cycle continued.
I was far more concerned at this point with actually getting some money out
of the infernal machine. Without being too terribly sure what I was doing,
I clicked "TRADE NOW" and then initiated a "Quick Sell" order. The ticker
at the top of the screen informed me that the current bid price for
bitcoins was $129.52 per, and it recommended that I sell my BTC at that rate
. So I gamely typed in my maximum amount of BTC, entered the suggested rate
of $129.52, and previewed the order.
Enlarge /
Is money happening? I think money is about to be happening.
"You are about to execute a Quick Sell order," the site informed me,
showing me the details I'd entered on the previous screen. Feeling every
bit the Internet tycoon, I clicked "EXECUTE SELL."
The next screen informed me that my sell order had gone through
immediately.Camp
BX kept a bit over $2 in commission, and I suddenly had $374 in my Camp BX
account.
Enlarge /
Money has kind of happened! I think I just got paid... somehow!
Next, I clicked "TRANSFER" and initiated the withdrawal process. There's a
$20 fee for pulling out funds in the form of a USPS money order, as well as
a maximum daily withdrawal of $1,000. I didn't mind giving up $20 of what
was essentially free money anyway if it meant I didn't have to give out my
checking account information. I punched in my information and requested the
withdrawal.
Enlarge /
Wait. OK, money hasn't happened yet. I mean, it has?sort of. Now I just
need to get the money to me.
A few days later, I received a hand-addressed envelope via certified
mail. Inside,
sure enough, was a hand-written USPS money order for $354.00 from "BulBul
Investments LLC." I drove it down to my credit union, and they cashed it
without complaint.
Enlarge /
You guys. We are so close to having turned bitcoins into actual real money.
Lee Hutchinson
After a quick trip to the bank, you can call me THE RAINMAKER.
Lee Hutchinson
I had done it. I had legitimately mined bitcoins and transmuted raw
electricity into dollars, through the power of *mathematics*. Truly, my
skill knew no bounds!
But the story doesn't *quite* end there.
Catastrophe!
You might wonder, dear reader, why I stopped at 2.90220929 bitcoins. It's
rather an odd number. Why not three? Why not four or five?
After I filmed the video at the beginning of this piece, I resituated the
little BFL miner back into its corner of the dining room to resume its work
while I edited.As I walked away, I heard the whirring of the BFL miner take
on a decidedly*angry* tone. I approached it and knelt, thinking that the
fan bearing might have started to go bad, because that's certainly what it
sounded like. I tapped with one finger on the top of the device.
*"RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR?WHOCK,"* it said, before going totally silent.
I pulled the power cord and disassembled the machine to take a peek. One of
the fan blades had snapped off, catching itself in the aluminum fins of the
heat sink.
Enlarge /
Ruh-roh, Shaggy.
Lee Hutchinson
Clearly, the BFL 5GH/s miner's mining days were done?and at an odd number
of BTC mined, too.
A new challenger appears
I contacted Butterfly Labs and let them know that the fan had broken, and
they immediately offered to send a replacement miner. At first I demurred,
but on reflection I decided to take them up on their offer. The power
numbers mentioned in my initial quick post
didn't
jibe with the numbers of some other BFL miners in the wild. I was curious
to see if a replacement unit's stats would vary that much. Plus, with one
BFL miner down after only two weeks of mining, I wanted a second sample. Was
there a quality issue? Or did I just happen to get one with a bad fan?
Butterfly Labs quickly shipped the replacement, and the very next morning a
friendly FedEx driver dropped it off at my front door. Superficially, it
looked identical, but on plugging it in I was quite surprised at the
difference.
I noticed immediately that the noise was lower; I didn't measure the
decibel level of either box scientifically, but to my ear the new one was
markedly quieter than the old. Power consumption was also far lower. While
crunching numbers, the new box drew just 30 watts?roughly the same amount
of power that the first miner drew while idling.
The reduced amount of power consumed was reflected in the temperatures
too.After
being left to run all night, the thermal sensor reported about 37C?about*
half* of the first box's temperatures under load.
Half the noise, half the heat, and almost half the power draw? What was
going on in that little box?
I reached out to Jeff Ownby of Butterfly Labs and asked about the
variances."The
[ASIC] chips each have a potential of 4.2GH/s," he explained. "So the
theoretical max of a Jalape?o with two chips is 8.4GH/s. However, we use
the lower graded chips in the Jalape?o and the higher grade chips in our
other products, so the maximum performance in a Jalape?o is something less,
which is what you're seeing."
Butterfly Labs has its share of troubles with its ASIC suppliers?in fact,
most of the long delay between preorder taking and delivery appear to be
related directly or indirectly to the actual design and manufacturing of
the ASIC itself.These problems appear to have been somewhat solved and the
company is actually shipping miners . It seems that
all efforts are going to filling the 5GH/s Jalape?o orders first. The
second unit I got was apparently a higher-graded chip that might have been
fit for duty in a higher-spec miner (though in an e-mail sent after I'd
turned in my first draft of this piece, Jeff Ownby let me know that
Butterfly Labs is now shipping models other than the low-end Jalape?o).
Obvious question: if there's headroom, can I overclock the miner? I dashed
off another e-mail to the Butterfly Labs folks. "We'd prefer to leave the
question of overclocking officially unanswered, but we don't mind you
throwing that possibility out there for curious minds."
A*ha*. Unfortunately, I wouldn't even know where to begin. The miner
accepts commands via serial-over-USB, and I don't know if it's possible to
pass it any commands over that interface to alter its clock speed. I don't
have a command reference for Butterfly Labs' ASIC, so reverse-engineering
is a difficult prospect.It's entirely possible, if Butterfly Labs is doing
voltage regulation and clock speed multiplication in the software, that
there might be some magic commands you could issue to up the juice to a
cool-running miner.
Speaking of reverse-engineering, there's also this:
If you've got the tools and the talent, there's a JTAG here that you can go
crazy with.
Lee Hutchinson
There's a JTAG connector clearly
visible. I don't have the equipment to actually utilize the connector, but
in a group as technically minded as the Bitcoin mining community, I'm sure
there will be someone out there who will be poking at the miner through
this interface to see what they can learn (if it hasn't already been done).
Additionally, Butterfly Labs has published the source code for their board
firmware programming tools in a Github repo
. "This code has the mining logic and directs the nonces to the appropriate
engine and collects the results and sends them back out to the world,"
explained Ownby when I asked him what was contained in the files. Developers
with an interest in seeing what the Butterfly Labs miner can do and in
possibly extending its capabilities can use this code as a starting place.
The final tallies
In the end, the two miners together consumed a total of 28.30 kWh of
electricity. According to my latest utility bill, I'm paying $0.13 per kWh,
so my Bitcoin mining experiment cost me $3.68 in real electricity (without
accounting for taxes and fees and whatever else the power company pads my
bill with). The tally is obviously complicated by the two different miners
consuming different amounts of juice. Even at the higher electricity rate
of the first miner, it's clear that?at current exchange rates and
difficulty?Bitcoin mining with one of these boxes is a profitable endeavor.
In fact, if it's so profitable, why on earth is Butterfly Labs *selling* these
devices?Why not rent a warehouse, fill it with miners, and make infinity
bitcoins?
The answer is two-fold. First, BFL required a great deal of capital in
order to design and manufacture the ASICs that power its boxes and then to
assemble the miners themselves. This capital was provided in no small part
by pre-selling the miners; hanging onto them to do some BTC mining with
them is sketchy at best and at worst illegal. Plus, there are practical
considerations: a giant BTC warehouse adds overhead costs, and I can't even
begin to take a guess at the bookkeeping implications of warehousing
capital like that.
However, the second reason is far more practical: bitcoins, for all their
current value, are still speculative. A large amount of US dollars is a
large amount of US dollars no matter which way you cut it. It can be
readily exchanged for goods and services. Bitcoins themselves don't
necessarily hold value, and it's difficult to exchange them in large
quantities for an equivalent amount of dollars. So selling Bitcoin miners
for dollars guarantees a certain number of dollars; investing capital into
mining a truly large number of bitcoins might work well as a short-term
hedge, but the value of the trade is utterly impossible to predict.
This, I suppose, is part of the nature of high-risk investments. But in
this case, Butterfly Labs can simply charge whatever it wants for its gear
in order to make whatever margin it deems is sufficient. Why bet on the
future of a relatively new virtual currency that may go up or down when you
can simply get a bunch of real US dollars?
Obviously, the value of those US dollars may?will!?also go up and down, but
it's also extremely easy to extract value from a dollar. I can't?at least
yet?pay my mortgage in BTC, or buy a car in BTC, or really even buy
everyday necessities (I don't live anywhere near any random merchants who
have decided to begin accepting BTC). A dollar, at least today, has far
greater utility and far greater immediate value.
Bitcoin?s not for me?but it might be for you
I ran the replacement miner for an equal amount of time as the first one
ran before breaking; it held up without complaints and churned out an
additional three bitcoins. Both our cash from the first miner and our
bitcoins from the second have been turned over to the EFF, and our second
Butterfly Labs miner has been returned to its manufacturer. I am once again
a normal person who traffics in normal-person money. I'd actually gotten
used to walking past the dining room in the morning and hearing the *
whirrrrrr* of the miner in the corner, and now the house seems weirdly quiet
.
The biggest takeaway from my time working with the Butterfly Labs
"Jalape?o" miner is that you don't really have to know a damn thing about
how bitcoins work to mine them. As complex as the underlying cryptography
is to a layman like me, the only reason why I couldn't pull this thing out
of the box and start mining after reading a couple of wiki articles was
that I wanted to get it working on OS X. John O'Mara's help was priceless,
and once we had the application side figured out, it was smooth sailing.
So should you don your prospecting gear, buy a Butterfly Labs miner this
very instant, and start making money? You *could*, but there are a couple
of issues.The first is that Butterfly Labs has only recently started
shipping products, and its first priority is to its year-long backlog of
preorder customers. If you're buying a unit today, you're going to be way, *
way* down the list. There are tons of other high-speed ASIC-based miners,
though?sites like The Genesis Block
keep
tabs on what's available and what's worth buying.
The other issue is a bit stickier: the Bitcoin system adjusts its overall
difficulty as mining speed increases in an attempt to limit the speed of
Bitcoin production. A few years ago, a 5GH/s miner like the Jalape?o would
have produced a veritable torrent of bitcoins in a day; a few years *from* now,
specialized hardware will be required to mine even tiny fractions of BTC.
If you're going to buy an ASIC-based miner, it might be best to get one, as
they say, while the gettin' is still good.
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From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Jul 1 22:29:25 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:29:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] David Wood & Transhumanists Discuss Dan Brown's Book Inferno
Message-ID: <001b01ce76aa$717453d0$545cfb70$@natasha.cc>
This is a really good discussions on Dan Brown's Inferno book with David
Wood to asks David Orban, Giulio Prisco and Peter Rothman what they think.
I listened to it this morning, and enjoyed it. Only problem is it could
have been longer. Great job David Wood!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=801_8qzfx0M.
Natasha
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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 01:43:47 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 03:43:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
References:
<51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
Message-ID:
>
> Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and Hayek were
> roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of their own lives,
> collectives do not have any moral value in themselves, and that governments
> are dangerous imperfect tools that should be used (carefully) only for the
> purposes to which they are suited?
>
I think that a clarification is needed.
I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or
ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the same
that the neocons in USA. A paradigmatic example:
A journalist who writes for Libertad Digital, one of the many newspapers
owned by Popular Party supporters says "Child prostitutes don?t like their
jobs, but nobody likes it".
They supports things like hired murderers and fight for leave no rights to
the people without money if they are not able to pay: No health services at
all, not education at all. They don?t want to pay any tax, so roads,
police, tax, army etc are payed by each one.
No cooperation, no laws no society.
Is this liberalism? Is what selfstyled liberal in Europe/Spain call
liberalism.
Is this humanism? Not at all. Just radical anarchism where you have right
to live if you can defend yourself.
Sorry for my english
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 02:34:28 2013
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 21:34:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
<51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
Message-ID:
I think democratic transhumanism is much more likely to succeed by having a
more general appeal.
Transhumanism is already accused to be the brainchild of rich and powerful
elites and having at its core heartless policies and ideas like eugenic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_transhumanism
Giovanni
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Eugenio Mart?nez
wrote:
> Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and Hayek were
>> roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of their own lives,
>> collectives do not have any moral value in themselves, and that governments
>> are dangerous imperfect tools that should be used (carefully) only for the
>> purposes to which they are suited?
>>
>
> I think that a clarification is needed.
>
> I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or
> ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the same
> that the neocons in USA. A paradigmatic example:
>
> A journalist who writes for Libertad Digital, one of the many newspapers
> owned by Popular Party supporters says "Child prostitutes don?t like their
> jobs, but nobody likes it".
>
> They supports things like hired murderers and fight for leave no rights
> to the people without money if they are not able to pay: No health services
> at all, not education at all. They don?t want to pay any tax, so roads,
> police, tax, army etc are payed by each one.
> No cooperation, no laws no society.
>
> Is this liberalism? Is what selfstyled liberal in Europe/Spain call
> liberalism.
> Is this humanism? Not at all. Just radical anarchism where you have right
> to live if you can defend yourself.
>
> Sorry for my english
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From anders at aleph.se Tue Jul 2 07:56:53 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2013 08:56:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
<51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <51D287C5.3080201@aleph.se>
On 2013-07-02 02:43, Eugenio Mart?nez wrote:
>
> Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and
> Hayek were roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of
> their own lives, collectives do not have any moral value in
> themselves, and that governments are dangerous imperfect tools
> that should be used (carefully) only for the purposes to which
> they are suited?
>
>
> I think that a clarification is needed.
>
> I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or
> ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the
> same that the neocons in USA.
What is their ideological tenets? Because I suspect you are not
describing a real view, but rather your strawman view of something you
do not like. So you pick up examples of people saying outrageous things
and bundle them together into "this is what they think".
--
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University
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From giulio at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 08:09:12 2013
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 10:09:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
As I become older and wiser, I more and more agree with libertarian positions
From rolandodegilead at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 10:39:03 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 12:39:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID:
> What is their ideological tenets? Because I suspect you are not describing
> a real view, but rather your strawman view of something you do not like. So
> you pick up examples of people saying outrageous things and bundle them
> together into "this is what they think".
>
Well, I didn?t chose a Mr Nobody to show an example. If you can read
Spanish you can read here the
articlewhere I
found this quote. He writes in Libertad Digital. The owner of this
newspaper is Federico Jimenez Losantos, one of the most important
businessman in Spain. If you know somebody from Spain, ask him about
Federico Jimenez Losantos. If your friend is older than 18, he knows him.
Their only ideology is this radical anarchism where freedom is superior to
all the other human rights.
Still, we here have a public health system that cost 1500? per person every
year and that provides with FULL health asistance. Full means Full.
Everything is free. Or was.
It was perfectly sustainable and was universal, for everybody even if you
were not Spanish, because a human life is most important than the cost of
their treatment. But the Spanish liberals have dismantled it. So now, only
the rich people can pay their treatments. Is this humanism? In fact, even
from an economic point of view is not intelligent: Healthy people works
better and epidemics spreaded are more expensive than epidemics controlled.
Also, suing somebody is not free anymore. Only people who can pay can sue
someone. Poor people are helpless.
Is this liberal system where only rich people can have their health treated
or can be protected by the judiciary compatible with humanism? Don?t even
respect human life.
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From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jul 2 14:13:44 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 16:13:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Drag and LEO thinsat experiments
Message-ID: <20130702141344.GY24217@leitl.org>
----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom -----
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:57:01 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom
To: server-sky at server-sky.com
Subject: [Server-sky] Drag and LEO thinsat experiments
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com
Some thoughts about microgravity thinsat tests.
Take a look at http://server-sky.com/Drag . The air drag at ISS
altitudes (350-400km) and below is way too high to maneuver
thinsats - they are tissue paper in a hurricane. Once thinsats
drop below 1000km altitude, they will re-enter in weeks; below
400km, re-enter in hours, unless they are shielded from air drag.
Thinsats in light pressure accelerate away from the sun at
around 20 ?m/s?. At ISS altitudes, the orbital drag is 200
times higher, -4000 ?m/s?, rapidly slowing down and losing
altitude. That is 15 m/s per hour, dropping orbit altitude
by 30 kilometers, which doubles the drag in an hour, which
doubles the drag in half an hour, ...
A 1U cubesat has an area of 0.01m?and weighs 1kg, 200 times the
mass and 0.4 times the area of a thinsat, so the drag acceleration
is 500 times lower, about -8?m/s?.
ISS accelerates at -0.2?m/s? because of drag. Small, but it adds
to drop the orbit by 10s of kilometers over months - putting ISS
in denser atmosphere, decreasing the decay rate and requiring
frequent rocket reboost. ISS flexes, turns, outgasses - certainly
not perfect vacuum and zero gravity.
Imagine testing a thinsat inside of a transparent container to
protect it from air drag. If the container is in the portion of
its orbit moving towards the sun, and slowing at 20?m/s?, it will
track the light pressure acceleration of the thinsat and the
thinsat can maneuver inside the container. That is way more
acceleration than ISS, a bit more than a slowing cubesat.
But if the cubesat deploys a larger transparent plastic bag,
that could add enough drag to match the thinsat's 20?m/s?
light pressure acceleration for a small portion of a 92
minute ISS-altitude orbit. A full size 20cm thinsat won't
fit in a small bag, but for testing a 5cm thinsat will do
fine. A small thinsat turns four times faster, facilitating
short duration experiments.
A proposed experiment:
Make a cubesat with small TV cameras, an S-band transmitter,
a bluetooth transmitter, and a small deployable tent with a
5cm baby thinsat inside. The baby thinsat has InP solar
cells and electrochromic thrusters controlled by a single
chip bluetooth receiver/CPU. The cubesat commands the captive
baby thinsat to manuever, the behavior is captured by the
cameras and flash memory, to be slowly transmitted to the
software radios on ISS.
As the cubesat drags and slows down, the orbit will drop
and move forwards in orbit, eventually falling out of range
of ISS and re-enter. If the drag tent stays deployed,
the cubesat will come down in less than two weeks. That
will result in a few dozen experimental passes.
Also, developing a low-mass deployable drag tent from a
cubesat might be a useful technology for other cubesats.
If their orbit takes them near some other LEO asset, it
slowing down and missing a collision could save $$$$$ in
liability.
A lot of handwaving, but a concept for an experiment that might
refine into something practical. CHECK MY NUMBERS please!
Keith
--
Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky
----- End forwarded message -----
--
Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B 47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5
From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jul 3 04:01:39 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 21:01:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
>>... The truth will make you free(er). As you didn't anything evil or
wrong, what's the problem with the true? Mirco
>...The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for
survival...BillK
_______________________________________________
Hey another idea occurred to me after thinking about BillK's comment. Human
society, and definitely criminals are heavily dependent on deception and
stealth. Imagine that you are a victim of any crime in which the perp
leaves any DNA trace which can be recovered. You are a lot more motivated
to catch the bastard than the cops are. That isn't to say they are lazy or
unmotivated; they are busy and don't worry as much as you do about catching
that particular suspect.
But imagine the perp does leave some trace of DNA, but that's all. There
are no witnesses, no security camera evidence, and even the fingerprints
bring up no matches, so all you have is a DNA sample full stop. Looks to me
like you now have the power to send that sample to 23andMe, then you now
have at least a list of the perp's distant cousins. With a bit of detective
work that you are willing to put in, but not the police department, you
might be able to figure out whodunit, just by looking at the intersection of
all the cousins. If not, all you need to do is wait, because more and more
people sign up for this all the time.
That makes for a hell of a note: some sleazy bastard does some crime, gets
away, some arbitrary period of time later, you figure out who it is, and
even where he lives. The cops will not do anything about what you have
discovered, they don't act on that kind of information. But you know who it
is.
With all our sophistication and everything we know how to do, what happens
next?
spike
From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jul 3 05:03:54 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:03:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of spike
>Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
>...That makes for a hell of a note: some sleazy bastard does some crime,
gets away, some arbitrary period of time later, you figure out who it is,
and even where he lives. The cops will not do anything about what you have
discovered, they don't act on that kind of information. But you know who it
is...what happens next? spike
_______________________________________________
Do forgive me for obsessing about this, but it is at least vaguely
transhumanist in the sense that it is a vision of the future society in
which we will live and attempt to achieve our transhumanist vision.
We know that crime is already changing as a result of the proliferation of
security cameras and home security alarm systems. As technology advances,
citizens are empowered to solve crimes, more than the cops are in a way.
Reasoning: as ever more homes get sophisticated security systems that take
photos and store them on the internet, burglary becomes ever less profitable
and practical. Since fewer people carry currency now, I would think mugging
must be declining; less profitable. So the result is that we need fewer
cops. So the ones remaining aren't all that terribly motivated to capture
and haul away their declining pool of clients: the sleazebags. So we have
too many cops, and we need to lay off some of them.
At the same time, we are getting all these new tools for catching bad guys,
among them 23andMe. We also know that there are a hundred ways to do
amateur sleuthing with a DNA signature. Envision a crime victim who somehow
recovers the perp's DNA, sends it in, opens an account, then starts a
23-forum where the victim announce to everyone there: "Account Perp-66 is an
unknown bad guy. A crisp K-note to the first person who can identify him,
and provide some compelling evidence."
I might take a shot at that for a thousand bucks, and I might even work at
developing a collection of scripts which would do the tricks I have learned.
The point is that we enter an era when we might be able to catch way more
bad guys for a very reasonable price. We can easily imagine crime victims
putting up a hundred bucks to enter the perp's DNA into the database and a
thousand for identifying who it is. What I don't know is what the legal
system will do if a private citizen catches the bastard; probably nothing.
Enforcement doesn't want competition in the enforcement business.
spike
From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 06:49:18 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:49:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID:
I'll believe it's "now possible" when the first successful head
transplant in animals, with spinal cord reattachment, has
been accomplished. Until then, it lies solidly in the realm
of future technology. (Future tech that's likely to happen
some day, granted, but that day is not today.)
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Gordon wrote:
> You might get a new head someday, but you won't know about it.
>
> First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says neuroscientist
>
> http://qz.com/99413/first-ever-human-head-transplant-is-now-possible-says-neuroscientist/
>
> -gts
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 07:35:19 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:35:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
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<51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
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<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID:
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:03 PM, spike wrote:
> What I don't know is what the legal
> system will do if a private citizen catches the bastard; probably nothing.
> Enforcement doesn't want competition in the enforcement business.
>
Perhaps not, but if you go to a district attorney with court-admissible
evidence, including DNA evidence, that does solidly prove that person
X did the crime, said DA might well sign off on an arrest warrant and
proceed. It's not like he needs to share the credit for cracking the
case.
(Of course, the evidence does need to be court-admissible. But in
the scenario we're discussing, you've done the research to find what
is admissible and have followed strict guidelines in collecting the
evidence you present to him. This might not be all the evidence you
have, but it's enough to prove the case on its own.)
Not wanting competition is an organizational thing. Laziness and
greed are individual things, and as such tend to trump organizational
attitudes when brought into direct conflict like this.
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From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Jul 3 08:05:38 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:05:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D3DB52.1030208@libero.it>
Il 03/07/2013 06:01, spike ha scritto:
> But imagine the perp does leave some trace of DNA, but that's all. There
> are no witnesses, no security camera evidence, and even the fingerprints
> bring up no matches, so all you have is a DNA sample full stop. Looks to me
> like you now have the power to send that sample to 23andMe, then you now
> have at least a list of the perp's distant cousins. With a bit of detective
> work that you are willing to put in, but not the police department, you
> might be able to figure out whodunit, just by looking at the intersection of
> all the cousins. If not, all you need to do is wait, because more and more
> people sign up for this all the time.
We have a case, in Italy, where we have traces of DNA found on the
victim of an homicide, a 13 years old girl.
People around the place accepted to submit their DNA to help the police
exclude them from the suspect list. It was a lot of people.
Then some matches happened.
Not of the suspect, but of some half-brother.
The problem is the father is dead and the man have no clue about an
half-brother. So, there is no lead to him, for now.
Asking females to give DNA samples is so un-PC.
Mirco
From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Jul 3 09:32:59 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 11:32:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
Il 03/07/2013 07:03, spike ha scritto:
> We know that crime is already changing as a result of the proliferation of
> security cameras and home security alarm systems. As technology advances,
> citizens are empowered to solve crimes, more than the cops are in a way.
> Reasoning: as ever more homes get sophisticated security systems that take
> photos and store them on the internet, burglary becomes ever less profitable
> and practical. Since fewer people carry currency now, I would think mugging
> must be declining; less profitable. So the result is that we need fewer
> cops. So the ones remaining aren't all that terribly motivated to capture
> and haul away their declining pool of clients: the sleazebags. So we have
> too many cops, and we need to lay off some of them.
No.
They will just multiply the laws, so the cops will have something to
find about you anyway.
If you look at the recent decades the number of laws in the western
democracies have ballooned in a way or another.
You could be arrested and / or prosecuted for any reason or no reason.
With or without evidences supporting the charge.
And, at least in Italy, they can found you guilty of something with no
direct proof, witness or anything (just read about the last trial of
Berlusconi). And this is about someone able to defend himself; spending
something like 300 M ? in lawyers to defend himself from the prosecutors
for 20 years and was always found not guilty or the statute of
limitation kicked in.
A common guy like me and you would land in jail. End of story.
You could be innocent like Jesus and you would end on the Cross willing
or not.
> At the same time, we are getting all these new tools for catching bad guys,
> among them 23andMe. We also know that there are a hundred ways to do
> amateur sleuthing with a DNA signature. Envision a crime victim who somehow
> recovers the perp's DNA, sends it in, opens an account, then starts a
> 23-forum where the victim announce to everyone there: "Account Perp-66 is an
> unknown bad guy. A crisp K-note to the first person who can identify him,
> and provide some compelling evidence."
> I might take a shot at that for a thousand bucks, and I might even work at
> developing a collection of scripts which would do the tricks I have learned.
> The point is that we enter an era when we might be able to catch way more
> bad guys for a very reasonable price. We can easily imagine crime victims
> putting up a hundred bucks to enter the perp's DNA into the database and a
> thousand for identifying who it is. What I don't know is what the legal
> system will do if a private citizen catches the bastard; probably nothing.
> Enforcement doesn't want competition in the enforcement business.
This is because the government hate the Mafia.
They are in the same business: protection (for a fee) of the people
doing business in the territory the control, or else...
The problem, in my vision, is the bad guy you are thinking, people
leaving DNA traces around, is not the most brilliant dude. He could be
violent, but he will not be a great threat for a large number of people.
The problem is the large number of high level psychopathics in charge of
institutions. Their crimes do not leave DNA samples around, but wreck
the economy and the lives of people on a massive scale.
Mirco
From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 3 09:43:36 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:43:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
Message-ID: <20130703094336.GK24217@leitl.org>
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/516691/technology-not-law-limits-mass-surveillance/
Ashkan Soltani
July 1, 2013
Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
Improved technology enabled the NSA?s mass surveillance programs. Future
improvements will make collecting data on citizens easier and easier.
Recent revelations about the extent of surveillance by the U.S. National
Security Agency come as no surprise to those with a technical background in
the workings of digital communications. The leaked documents show how the NSA
has taken advantage of the increased use of digital communications and cloud
services, coupled with outdated privacy laws, to expand and streamline their
surveillance programs. This is a predictable response to the shrinking cost
and growing efficiency of surveillance brought about by new technology. The
extent to which technology has reduced the time and cost necessary to conduct
surveillance should play an important role in our national discussion of this
issue.
The American public previously, maybe unknowingly, relied on technical and
financial barriers to protect them from large-scale surveillance by the
government. These implicit protections have quickly eroded in recent years as
technology industry advances have reached intelligence agencies, and digital
communications technology has spread through society. As a result, we now
have to replace these ?naturally occurring? boundaries and refactor the law
to protect our privacy.
The ways in which we interact has drastically changed over the past decade.
The majority of our communications are now delivered and stored by
third-party services and cloud providers. E-mail, documents, phone calls, and
chats all go through Internet companies such as Google, Facebook, Skype, or
wireless carriers like Verizon, AT&T, or Sprint. And while distributed in
nature, the physical infrastructure underlying the World Wide Web relies on
key chokepoints which the government can, and is, monitoring. This makes
surveillance much easier because the NSA only needs to establish
relationships with a few critical companies to capture the majority of the
market they want to observe with few legal restrictions. The NSA has the
capability to observe hundreds of millions of people communicating using
these services with relatively little effort and cost.
Each of the NSA programs recently disclosed by the media is unique in the
type of data it accesses, but they all share a common thread: they have been
enabled by a massive increase in capacity and reduction in cost of
surveillance techniques.
NSA?s arrangement with just a few key telecom providers enables the
collection of phone records for over 300 million Americans without the need
to set up individual trap-and-tracer registers for each person. PRISM
provides programmatic access to the contents of all e-mails, voice
communications, and documents privately stored by a handful of cloud services
such as Gmail, Facebook, AOL, and Skype. A presidential directive, PPD20,
permits ?offensive? surveillance tools (i.e hacking) to be deployed anywhere
in the world, from the convenience of a desk at CIA headquarters in Langley.
Finally, Boundless Informant, the NSA?s system to track its own surveillance
activities, reveals that the agency collected over 97 billion pieces of
intelligence information worldwide in March 2013 alone. The collection,
storage, and processing of all this information would have been unimaginable
through analog surveillance.
Recent documents indicate that the cost of the programs described above
totaled roughly $140 million over the four years from 2002 to 2006, just a
miniscule portion of the NSA?s approximately $10 billion annual budget.
Spying no longer requires following people or planting bugs, but rather
filling out forms to demand access to an existing trove of information. The
NSA doesn?t bear the cost of collecting or storing data and they no longer
have to directly interact with their targets. The technology-enabled reach of
these programs is vast, especially when compared to the closest equivalent
possible just 10 years ago.
What we have learned about the NSA?s capabilities suggests a move toward
programmatic, automated surveillance previously unfathomable due to
limitations of computing speed, scale, and cost. Technical advances have both
reduced the barriers to surveillance and increased the NSA?s capacity for it.
We need to remember that this is a trend with a firm lower bound. Once the
cost of surveillance reaches zero we will be left with our outdated laws as
the only protection. Whatever policy actions are taken as a result of the
recent leaks should address the fact that technical barriers such as cost and
speed offer dwindling protection from unwarranted government surveillance
domestically and abroad.
Ashkan Soltani is an independent researcher and consultant focused on
privacy, security, and behavioral economics.
--
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From ALONZOTG at verizon.net Mon Jul 1 16:31:16 2013
From: ALONZOTG at verizon.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 12:31:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The problem of the time function.
Message-ID: <51D1AED4.5090008@verizon.net>
'ello. Here's a math problem for the uploaders.
The universal time function appears to be something like this: (grossly
simplified because I'm not very smart):
X' = f(X, k * X'')
Where k is on the order of 0.18/second.
Basically, the universe does permit limited signal propagation backwards
in time. So how are you going to simulate that on a computer???
--
NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE
Powers are not rights.
From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 3 12:59:47 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 14:59:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] S band versus phone
Message-ID: <20130703125947.GJ24217@leitl.org>
----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom -----
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 05:49:53 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom
To: Michael Turner
Cc: Keith Lofstrom , Server Sky - Internet and Computing in Orbit
Subject: [Server-sky] S band versus phone
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com
On Tue, Jul 02, 2013 at 03:22:30PM +0900, Michael Turner wrote:
> It's been proposed (sorry for the vagueness, there's some ITAR
> sensitivity here from my source) that PhoneSat become a kind of
> standard cubesat bus. It will lack S-band of course but will have a
> camera and bluetooth.
My interest in S band is that the space station software radio is
a ram-facing agile system that has the bandwidth to collect lots
of video data. I've been swapping emails with Jim Lux, the co-P.I.
at JPL, about this.
http://spaceflightsystems.grc.nasa.gov/SOPO/SCO/SCaNTestbed/
To do the experiment I have in mind, we need to release into a
near-circular orbit - an apogee below ISS will have way too much
ram drag. As it is, there will only be a few orbits (20? WAG)
before the orbit decays down into the high drag zone, and perhaps
50 more before reentry.
The way the orbital mechanics works is that when an object is
"slowed" by drag, it drops into a lower orbit and revolves faster.
Relative to the launch point, it drops and appears to accelerate
forwards in the "ram" direction. So the SCaN radio is pointed
the right way, and the data collection systems are available to
downlink our data (a lot of video).
> The "tent" could double as a de-orbiting mechanism later in flight.
> There's been some persuasive talk of a standard for deorbiting cubesat
> using this technique
>
> http://repository.tudelft.nl/view/ir/uuid%3A49d86db1-8909-4464-af1b-fe1655c9c376/
>
> If there could at least be an option in the standard for tent-fabric
> transparency, there might be other space-sci/tech uses for it, by
> other researchers who'd like long-duration nanogravity themselves,
> together with solar insolation. Well, OK, maybe only other solar-sail
> researchers. But still.
That is good thinking. There are many other research projects that can
use this; if the tent is "evacuation pumped" to the rear, it recreates
conditions at higher altitudes for many different experiments, as well
as the insolation and black body characteristics at the high altitudes
if transparent.
There is a business here. A lot of researchers will just want to run
their experiments without worrying about all the complications of
managing a cubesat.
There is already a precedent; the US Naval Academy offers an
experimental compartment in a 2U cubesat to outside experimenters.
Plug your "sub-cube" into theirs, and they will provide power and
communication and mission control. This is for cadet training;
these will soon be the officers who manage the Navy's space assets.
Keith
P.S. on the "Drag" web page, I show altitudes for the Virgin Galactic
spaceship 1 and 2 on the graph. As Michael points out, those aren't
orbital, they move far slower and the drag is much less. I should
redraw the graph with those points far below the line. Or better yet,
I should attach sources and let one of you redraw it.
--
Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky
----- End forwarded message -----
--
Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B 47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5
From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jul 3 13:14:30 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 06:14:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D3DB52.1030208@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com> <51D3DB52.1030208@libero.it>
Message-ID: <01c901ce77ef$40dce2f0$c296a8d0$@rainier66.com>
>... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
Il 03/07/2013 06:01, spike ha scritto:
>>... But imagine the perp does leave some trace of DNA, but that's all.
... all you need to do is wait, because more and more people sign up for
this all the time...spike
>...We have a case, in Italy, where we have traces of DNA found on the
victim of an homicide, a 13 years old girl.
>...People around the place accepted to submit their DNA ...
Not of the suspect, but of some half-brother.
The problem is the father is dead and the man have no clue about an
half-brother. So, there is no lead to him, for now.
>...Asking females to give DNA samples is so un-PC...Mirco
_____________________________________________
Disagree, there are important leads and highly informative evidence. From
the half-brother, they know the identity of the late father. We can
reconstruct his approximate place of residence throughout his life, then
look around for what women might have had contact with him, then later bore
an unexpected child. This is a great example of a case that might be
solvable using crowd-sourcing. You have plenty of people who might help for
free, because of the emotional pull of the slain child. Plenty of people
have a teenage daughter, and if not, a niece or young cousin, and we all
have a mother. Every parent's nightmare is the murderous child-stalker
still at large. The case has hit a roadblock, but not necessarily a dead
end.
The next step is a worldwide legal basis for DNA sampling every guest of the
constabulary. We currently use mugshots and fingerprints for every person
arrested, which stays on record even if the perp is released and found not
guilty. These could be placed in some kind of database which could do
23-ish level genome matching forever.
If such a system existed, we might even have people enter it voluntarily: I
would. Reasoning, if I have a cousin, even distant, raping children, hell
yes I want to contribute to catching the bastard. I would have no problem
informing my brother, my cousins, uncles, parents, my own son: Hey pal, if
you sire any illegitimate children, commit burglaries or pull off any major
bank heists in which you leave any DNA, you are BUSTED, as you damn should
be. I seriously doubt any of that crowd would object. Many of them would
want to be in that database too.
spike
From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jul 3 13:48:55 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 06:48:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com> <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
Message-ID: <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
>...
>...A common guy like me and you would land in jail. End of story...
Ja, that is why the IRS story is having such impact on the US. Before we
had a bill of rights which protects us to some degree from unlawful search
and seizure. Now it is clear the IRS can come knocking with no warrant, no
justification, no evidence required, no accountability. We have freedom of
speech, but it can still get you an IRS audit, which is worse than going
into the criminal court system.
>...You could be innocent like Jesus and you would end on the Cross willing
or not...
Innocent like Jesus? Like hell! Did you forget about this ugly little
incident:
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the
changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of
the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money,
and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
Father's house an house of merchandise... {John Chapter 2}
How do they figure this guy was sinless? Interfering with religious
merchandising in the first degree. Clearly premeditated, from that scourge
business. They could have skipped the whole trial, cat-o-nine-tails, crown
of thorns, execution, resurrection etc, sent him directly to the Roman IRS,
no one would have ever heard from him again; resulting in no Christianity,
no crusades, no Easter egg hunt at the White House with the IRS director.
How different history might have turned out. In modern times you can get in
trouble for interfering with even a phony religion; back then a guy could
commit actual scattering of sacred lucre, then just walk away across the
lake.
>...The problem, in my vision, is the bad guy you are thinking, people
leaving DNA traces around, is not the most brilliant dude. He could be
violent, but he will not be a great threat for a large number of people...
Mirco
Ja. I am thinking of the whole notion of volunteers working together,
creating databases to catch rapists and child-murderers. The nature of
those crimes means they nearly always leave traces of DNA. Even if rare,
the impact those few have had on society is enormous, for it deeply
influences the way children are allowed to move and play.
spike
_______________________________________________
From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jul 3 16:32:19 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 18:32:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Oil Drum is shuttering,
any help with setting up a successor site?
Message-ID: <20130703163219.GW24217@leitl.org>
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/10059
An End to Eight Years of The Oil Drum
Posted by Rembrandt on July 3, 2013 - 11:47am
Topic: Miscellaneous
Tags: the oil drum, tod [list all tags]
Dear Readers of The Oil Drum,
A few weeks ago the ISEOF board (The Institute for Energy and Our Future that
facilitates The Oil Drum), Euan, Super G, JoulesBurn, and Myself, met to
discuss the future of The Oil Drum. A discussion we have had several times in
the last year, due to scarcity of new content caused by a dwindling number of
contributors. Despite our best efforts to fill this gap we have not been able
to significantly improve the flow of high quality articles.
Because of this and the high expense of running the site, the board has
unanimously decided that the best course of action is to convert the site to
a static archive of previously published material as of 31st July 2013. We
will continue to post articles up to this date. Afterwards any articles will
be held as a public archive into the foreseeable future, so that others can
continue to learn from the breadth and depth of knowledge published by our
many authors, over the 8+ history of this remarkable volunteer effort.
We sincerely thank everyone who has been part of the TOD community - authors,
staff and especially commenter's and readers - for contributing to the
success of the site. It is unusual for a site which is based primarily on
volunteer effort to continue this long.
From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 16:40:19 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 09:40:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The problem of the time function.
In-Reply-To: <51D1AED4.5090008@verizon.net>
References: <51D1AED4.5090008@verizon.net>
Message-ID:
First step: what exactly do you mean by "universal time
function", and from what data do you conclude that this
is the case?
It helps to weed out the possibility that you have simply
misunderstood, before you spend much time trying to
model this. Doing so by breaking it into a complete but
simple* explanation will also (assuming you understood
correctly) assist with the process of modeling, because
breaking it down like this renders components more
directly useful in said activity.
* These two qualities may at first seem inherently
opposed, but they are not. The explanation needs to
handwave as little as possible, but at the same time,
all the steps are easily understood on their own.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Alan Grimes wrote:
> 'ello. Here's a math problem for the uploaders.
>
>
> The universal time function appears to be something like this: (grossly
> simplified because I'm not very smart):
>
> X' = f(X, k * X'')
>
> Where k is on the order of 0.18/second.
>
> Basically, the universe does permit limited signal propagation backwards
> in time. So how are you going to simulate that on a computer???
>
> --
> NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE
>
> Powers are not rights.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 17:13:19 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 18:13:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Oil Drum is shuttering,
any help with setting up a successor site?
In-Reply-To: <20130703163219.GW24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130703163219.GW24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID:
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/10059
>
> An End to Eight Years of The Oil Drum
>
The Automatic Earth site has a similar outlook, specifically the energy section:
BillK
From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 20:05:38 2013
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 13:05:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
Message-ID:
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> From: Eugen Leitl
>
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/516691/technology-not-law-limits-mass-surveillance/
>
> Ashkan Soltani
>
> July 1, 2013
>
> Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
>
> Improved technology enabled the NSA?s mass surveillance programs. Future
> improvements will make collecting data on citizens easier and easier.
> Recent revelations about the extent of surveillance by the U.S. National
> Security Agency come as no surprise to those with a technical background in
> the workings of digital communications. The leaked documents show how the NSA
> has taken advantage of the increased use of digital communications and cloud
> services, coupled with outdated privacy laws, to expand and streamline their
> surveillance programs. This is a predictable response to the shrinking cost
> and growing efficiency of surveillance brought about by new technology. The
> extent to which technology has reduced the time and cost necessary to conduct
> surveillance should play an important role in our national discussion of this
> issue.
Given the exposed facts and human nature, I can make a prediction as
to where this story will eventually go.
A subset of the information the NSA collects provides considerable
insight into predicting the movement of stock prices. This is
actually a reasonable thing to do in the context of terrorists
attacks.
Though it was either refuted or swept under the rug, there were a lot
of stories about the stocks of United and American Airlines being
shorted in the days leading up to 9/11.
Given the nature of NSA and the low chances of being caught, how
likely do you think it is that someone, maybe a lot of someones, has
been using the information to effectively play the stock market? It
might be noted that senators and representatives do quite a bit better
than average with the stocks they trade during the time they are in
office. For that, all they need is a general idea of how the
purchases of the government will impact the company's stock.
I don't know how hard it would be for reporters to find people in the
venn diagram who have done considerably better than average in the
stock market and have a connection to the NSA.
But it might lead them to a significant story.
I have no idea if it is related, but the high frequency trading
programs have recently been performing poorly. For data input to
those programs, I can imagine nothing better than the NSA's feed.
Keith
From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 21:36:30 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 17:36:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
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<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
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<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
<51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
<51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
<01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID:
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:48 AM, spike wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
>>...The problem, in my vision, is the bad guy you are thinking, people
> leaving DNA traces around, is not the most brilliant dude. He could be
> violent, but he will not be a great threat for a large number of people...
> Mirco
>
> Ja. I am thinking of the whole notion of volunteers working together,
> creating databases to catch rapists and child-murderers. The nature of
> those crimes means they nearly always leave traces of DNA. Even if rare,
> the impact those few have had on society is enormous, for it deeply
> influences the way children are allowed to move and play.
Is it bad that I'm thinking of foils to your plans?
Suppose I swipe a copy of spike's gene sequence directly from 23andMe
computers. Then I get a 3D printer, DIY bio hacking genetic materials
cooker, and now I have a patsy to take the blame for whatever crime I
want to place this material. Ok sure, I don't have an complete match
for spike - but i'm not trying to clone anyone, just provide a
conclusive enough match against the database to create a fraudulent
positive ID.
As clever as you think you will be catching the crooks, plan on the
crooks getting more clever too.
From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jul 3 22:40:51 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 15:40:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To:
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com> <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
<01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
...
>
>>... Ja. I am thinking of the whole notion of volunteers working together,
> creating databases to catch rapists and child-murderers. The nature
> of those crimes means they nearly always leave traces of DNA. Even if
> rare, the impact those few have had on society is enormous, for it
> deeply influences the way children are allowed to move and play.
>...Is it bad that I'm thinking of foils to your plans?
No, it is good. If there are new developments, everyone needs to know about
it. The new-ish development is that paternity can be indirectly determined
by comparing sufficient numbers of cousins and finding their intersection.
If there is any possible way to take genome files off of 23andMe, everyone
needs to know about that, forthwith.
>...Suppose I swipe a copy of spike's gene sequence directly from 23andMe
computers. Then I get a 3D printer, DIY bio hacking genetic materials
cooker, and now I have a patsy to take the blame for whatever crime I want
to place this material. Ok sure, I don't have an complete match for spike -
but i'm not trying to clone anyone, just provide a conclusive enough match
against the database to create a fraudulent positive ID...
Good that you mention that Michael. We need some kind of system to prevent
this kind of thing. If my anticipated development actually occurs, that
medical insurance groups will begin cherry-picking based on DNA profiles,
then we need some means of preventing the insurance companies from inserting
signals into the genome file to convince proles they are at risk, so they
should pay more. The insurance companies will take care of themselves to
prevent risk-markery people from borrowing the genome files of the
non-risk-markery people to get their insurance cheaper.
>...As clever as you think you will be catching the crooks, plan on the
crooks getting more clever too...
_______________________________________________
Ja. The term crooks vaguely implies those who wish to steal. I don't care
that much about catching them. The ones I want is to catch are the violent
criminals and rapists. I don't really perceive that set as getting any
smarter over time; if anything perhaps dumber. Those who would steal by
fraud, ja, definitely getting smarter.
spike
From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 23:05:45 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 00:05:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
<51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
<51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
<01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
<00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID:
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:40 PM, spike wrote:
> Ja. The term crooks vaguely implies those who wish to steal. I don't care
> that much about catching them. The ones I want is to catch are the violent
> criminals and rapists. I don't really perceive that set as getting any
> smarter over time; if anything perhaps dumber. Those who would steal by
> fraud, ja, definitely getting smarter.
>
Remember that female paedophilia is vastly under-reported.
Some estimates put females as about 20% of paedophiles.
It's not all about violent males.
BillK
From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 01:12:00 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 21:12:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
<51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
<51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
<01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
<00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID:
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 6:40 PM, spike wrote:
>>...Suppose I swipe a copy of spike's gene sequence directly from 23andMe
> computers. Then I get a 3D printer, DIY bio hacking genetic materials
> cooker, and now I have a patsy to take the blame for whatever crime I want
> to place this material. Ok sure, I don't have an complete match for spike -
> but i'm not trying to clone anyone, just provide a conclusive enough match
> against the database to create a fraudulent positive ID...
>
> Good that you mention that Michael. We need some kind of system to prevent
> this kind of thing. If my anticipated development actually occurs, that
> medical insurance groups will begin cherry-picking based on DNA profiles,
> then we need some means of preventing the insurance companies from inserting
> signals into the genome file to convince proles they are at risk, so they
> should pay more. The insurance companies will take care of themselves to
> prevent risk-markery people from borrowing the genome files of the
> non-risk-markery people to get their insurance cheaper.
As I continued to think about my first proposal for incriminating the
unsuspecting 23andSpike I realized that if I could hack the computer,
it would be far easier to simply swap a few records in the database.
Now my genetics point to your information and I've succeeded in a kind
of identity theft. In this case, there's probably not as much
monitoring for integrity on this data so I'm probably going to get
away with it for longer than stealing your credit card(s). I wonder
if it would be sufficiently confusing to swap my profile in several
databases so the cross-match from 23andMe to NSA's DB to Google/Apple
DB, etc. would be strangely inaccurate. Of course if only my own was
incorrect it could be discerned and fixed. I'll be sure to swap a few
thousand records in several disconnected sets/graphs. At least I
imagine this is easier than the actual biological parts of creating
DNA from computer files... but I'm no DIY geneticist. There may be a
point where hobby genome creation is no more expensive than 3D
printing. How this will impact laws should be interesting.
>>...As clever as you think you will be catching the crooks, plan on the
> crooks getting more clever too...
>
> Ja. The term crooks vaguely implies those who wish to steal. I don't care
> that much about catching them. The ones I want is to catch are the violent
> criminals and rapists. I don't really perceive that set as getting any
> smarter over time; if anything perhaps dumber. Those who would steal by
> fraud, ja, definitely getting smarter.
ok, crooks may not have implied the full scope of my intent. If I
wanted to destroy your public image, personal brand, career
opportunity, or political aspirations I need only subject your DNA to
a host of paternity claims (you untrustworthy philanderer) or place
your DNA at the scene of a horrendous crime (which I would have to
outsource to some thugs)
I appreciate that DNA is currently a highly accurate form of biometric
identification. The systems we use to track and match these
biological signatures are hardly foolproof. Whether this will ever be
explained to the proles remains to be discovered.
From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Thu Jul 4 02:41:27 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:41:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
<1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
Hi Gordon,
Interesting that you have such a different POV.
So then given your best guess, what would you say is the most likely
value of Bitcion one year from now. More or less than the predicted
100% increase? I figure we should be in very much agreement on this,
even if we do disagree on the "Moore's law"ness of such predictions?
Why is it that everyone misses and ignores the important things people
agree on, yet focus on much less important disagreements?
I also have troubles understanding how you can say that "currency and
commodity markets don't work that way".
It seems to me, the value of Gold is exactly the result of two "moores
laws" playing against each other. Number one, the deemand, which is
increasing exponentually, paralelling the growth of humanity and the
economy. And second, the growth of Gold supply has been more or less
growing exponentially, for all history, especially when the price gets
high like it has been. There is an old popular adage that an ounce of
Gold has always been equal to the value of a good Man's suit. The only
reason this has been true, for centuries, is because of these two mores
law like behaviors have been so closely matched. You'll probably point
out that an ounce of Gold can, today, pay for many men's suits. And
I"ll just fire back that the price is way ahead of itself, and precisely
why it is dramatically crashing in value, and will continue, likely tell
it get's back to the price of a man's suit. And of course, now, Gold
has a Big competitor, so my prediction is that it could even drop
further, because of this.
I will agree with you that fiat currency, controlled by any central
resurve, does not behave according to any Moore's law, precisely because
the central authority intervenes to keep a fairly constant inflation.
But I don't see how you can think that Bitcion, and it's restricted
supply nature, isn't any different than any such fiat currency!?
It seems to me, you're just focusing on the short term 'commodity'
prices and such. I completely agree with you that there is no "moore's
law" with any of that. But I don't care about any of that, and nobody
can predict any of that. What I like to get a hold of, are the long
term exponential trends and laws that will always, in the long run,
drastically overwhelm all such temporary roller coaster noise.
Brent
On 6/23/2013 11:04 PM, Gordon wrote:
> Brent Allsop wrote:
>
> > The new version of the "Canonized Law of the Crypto Coin" camp
> > predicting future values of Bitcion just went live.
>
> > http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2
>
> >It's predicting a continued Moore's Law like 100% / year growth...
>
> I have difficulty believing there is anything like a Moore's Law for
> Bitcoin. Currency and commodity markets don't work that way, and I
> don't see why Bitcoin should be different.
>
> Gordon
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From spike at rainier66.com Thu Jul 4 05:57:00 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 22:57:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] doug engelbart has died
Message-ID: <005901ce787b$4dd1aae0$e97500a0$@rainier66.com>
Damn.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jul/04/doug-engelbart-computer-mou
se-dies
Doug Engelbart, a visionary who invented the computer mouse and developed
other technology that has transformed the way people work, play and
communicate, has died. He was 88.
The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, where Engelbart
had been a fellow since 2005, said on Wednesday that it was notified of the
death in an email from his daughter and biographer, Christina.
spike
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 13:00:35 2013
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 09:00:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
In-Reply-To: <20130703094336.GK24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130703094336.GK24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID:
Scary. Encryption encryption encryption huh? Carrier pigeons?
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:43 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
>
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/516691/technology-not-law-limits-mass-surveillance/
>
> Ashkan Soltani
>
> July 1, 2013
>
> Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
>
> Improved technology enabled the NSA?s mass surveillance programs. Future
> improvements will make collecting data on citizens easier and easier.
>
> Recent revelations about the extent of surveillance by the U.S. National
> Security Agency come as no surprise to those with a technical background in
> the workings of digital communications. The leaked documents show how the
> NSA
> has taken advantage of the increased use of digital communications and
> cloud
> services, coupled with outdated privacy laws, to expand and streamline
> their
> surveillance programs. This is a predictable response to the shrinking cost
> and growing efficiency of surveillance brought about by new technology. The
> extent to which technology has reduced the time and cost necessary to
> conduct
> surveillance should play an important role in our national discussion of
> this
> issue.
>
> The American public previously, maybe unknowingly, relied on technical and
> financial barriers to protect them from large-scale surveillance by the
> government. These implicit protections have quickly eroded in recent years
> as
> technology industry advances have reached intelligence agencies, and
> digital
> communications technology has spread through society. As a result, we now
> have to replace these ?naturally occurring? boundaries and refactor the law
> to protect our privacy.
>
> The ways in which we interact has drastically changed over the past decade.
> The majority of our communications are now delivered and stored by
> third-party services and cloud providers. E-mail, documents, phone calls,
> and
> chats all go through Internet companies such as Google, Facebook, Skype, or
> wireless carriers like Verizon, AT&T, or Sprint. And while distributed in
> nature, the physical infrastructure underlying the World Wide Web relies on
> key chokepoints which the government can, and is, monitoring. This makes
> surveillance much easier because the NSA only needs to establish
> relationships with a few critical companies to capture the majority of the
> market they want to observe with few legal restrictions. The NSA has the
> capability to observe hundreds of millions of people communicating using
> these services with relatively little effort and cost.
>
> Each of the NSA programs recently disclosed by the media is unique in the
> type of data it accesses, but they all share a common thread: they have
> been
> enabled by a massive increase in capacity and reduction in cost of
> surveillance techniques.
>
> NSA?s arrangement with just a few key telecom providers enables the
> collection of phone records for over 300 million Americans without the need
> to set up individual trap-and-tracer registers for each person. PRISM
> provides programmatic access to the contents of all e-mails, voice
> communications, and documents privately stored by a handful of cloud
> services
> such as Gmail, Facebook, AOL, and Skype. A presidential directive, PPD20,
> permits ?offensive? surveillance tools (i.e hacking) to be deployed
> anywhere
> in the world, from the convenience of a desk at CIA headquarters in
> Langley.
> Finally, Boundless Informant, the NSA?s system to track its own
> surveillance
> activities, reveals that the agency collected over 97 billion pieces of
> intelligence information worldwide in March 2013 alone. The collection,
> storage, and processing of all this information would have been
> unimaginable
> through analog surveillance.
>
> Recent documents indicate that the cost of the programs described above
> totaled roughly $140 million over the four years from 2002 to 2006, just a
> miniscule portion of the NSA?s approximately $10 billion annual budget.
> Spying no longer requires following people or planting bugs, but rather
> filling out forms to demand access to an existing trove of information. The
> NSA doesn?t bear the cost of collecting or storing data and they no longer
> have to directly interact with their targets. The technology-enabled reach
> of
> these programs is vast, especially when compared to the closest equivalent
> possible just 10 years ago.
>
> What we have learned about the NSA?s capabilities suggests a move toward
> programmatic, automated surveillance previously unfathomable due to
> limitations of computing speed, scale, and cost. Technical advances have
> both
> reduced the barriers to surveillance and increased the NSA?s capacity for
> it.
> We need to remember that this is a trend with a firm lower bound. Once the
> cost of surveillance reaches zero we will be left with our outdated laws as
> the only protection. Whatever policy actions are taken as a result of the
> recent leaks should address the fact that technical barriers such as cost
> and
> speed offer dwindling protection from unwarranted government surveillance
> domestically and abroad.
>
> Ashkan Soltani is an independent researcher and consultant focused on
> privacy, security, and behavioral economics.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ZS-P2P" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to zs-p2p+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to zs-p2p at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/zs-p2p/20130703094336.GK24217%40leitl.org
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Thu Jul 4 16:01:48 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2013 10:01:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re: Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To:
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
<1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
<51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
Hi Carl and Gordon,
Hmm. I completely agree with all this - that "currencies are
representations of value", and that they "only grow in relation to the
underlying productivity of their economies". But that is the point. If
the underlying economy is growing exponentually, similare to Moore's
Law, then since Bitcions are limited in quantity, they must
comparatively grow in value to adequately handle the usage growth in
demand in any exponentially growing economy?
Gordon said he "has difficulty believing there is a Moore's Law for
Bitcoins". So where is the disconnect, if the underlying economy, and
demand, in the long term is growing exponentially?
As you can see in this historical graph of Bitcoin valuation growth:
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2. It has so far followed more of a
Moore's law than almost anything else. So how much more of this kind of
Moore's Law Growth will be required before you'll jump camps and admit
that there is a Moore's Law like growth in value of Bitcoins? In other
words, what kind of evidence will falsify your beliefs? Obviously, if
there is a deviation in this so far very linear (on a logarithmic graph)
growth pattern, this will falsify my predictions. So, again, if you
think there will be a deviation from this kind of very linear growth,
what do you think this deviation would most likely be? More growth?
Less growth? Any random growth that is just not Moore's Law like linear
growth which we've seen so far? What, exactly, are you
saying/predicting, and where do we disagree, if we indeed do disagree?
Brent Allsop
On 7/4/2013 2:18 AM, Carl Youngblood wrote:
> I agree with Gordon. Currencies are representations of value, not
> actual resources. Markets are ways of exchanging value, and they only
> grow in relation to the underlying productivity of their economies.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Brent Allsop
> > wrote:
>
>
> Hi Gordon,
>
> Interesting that you have such a different POV.
>
> So then given your best guess, what would you say is the most
> likely value of Bitcion one year from now. More or less than the
> predicted 100% increase? I figure we should be in very much
> agreement on this, even if we do disagree on the "Moore's law"ness
> of such predictions? Why is it that everyone misses and ignores
> the important things people agree on, yet focus on much less
> important disagreements?
>
> I also have troubles understanding how you can say that "currency
> and commodity markets don't work that way".
>
> It seems to me, the value of Gold is exactly the result of two
> "moores laws" playing against each other. Number one, the
> deemand, which is increasing exponentually, paralelling the growth
> of humanity and the economy. And second, the growth of Gold
> supply has been more or less growing exponentially, for all
> history, especially when the price gets high like it has been.
> There is an old popular adage that an ounce of Gold has always
> been equal to the value of a good Man's suit. The only reason
> this has been true, for centuries, is because of these two mores
> law like behaviors have been so closely matched. You'll probably
> point out that an ounce of Gold can, today, pay for many men's
> suits. And I"ll just fire back that the price is way ahead of
> itself, and precisely why it is dramatically crashing in value,
> and will continue, likely tell it get's back to the price of a
> man's suit. And of course, now, Gold has a Big competitor, so my
> prediction is that it could even drop further, because of this.
>
> I will agree with you that fiat currency, controlled by any
> central resurve, does not behave according to any Moore's law,
> precisely because the central authority intervenes to keep a
> fairly constant inflation. But I don't see how you can think that
> Bitcion, and it's restricted supply nature, isn't any different
> than any such fiat currency!?
>
> It seems to me, you're just focusing on the short term 'commodity'
> prices and such. I completely agree with you that there is no
> "moore's law" with any of that. But I don't care about any of
> that, and nobody can predict any of that. What I like to get a
> hold of, are the long term exponential trends and laws that will
> always, in the long run, drastically overwhelm all such temporary
> roller coaster noise.
>
> Brent
>
>
> On 6/23/2013 11:04 PM, Gordon wrote:
>> Brent Allsop
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The new version of the "Canonized Law of the Crypto Coin" camp
>> > predicting future values of Bitcion just went live.
>>
>> > http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2
>>
>> >It's predicting a continued Moore's Law like 100% / year growth...
>>
>> I have difficulty believing there is anything like a Moore's Law
>> for Bitcoin. Currency and commodity markets don't work that way,
>> and I don't see why Bitcoin should be different.
>>
>> Gordon
>
> --
> To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit
> http://transfigurism.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
> .
> To post to this group, send email to
> transfigurism at googlegroups.com
> .
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> --
> To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit
> http://transfigurism.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
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>
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From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 16:42:20 2013
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 12:42:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] patents was RE: simulation as an improvement over reality
In-Reply-To: <001d01cba396$c622ea70$5268bf50$@att.net>
References:
<001d01cba396$c622ea70$5268bf50$@att.net>
Message-ID:
I could have sworn I saw a message here about Doug Englebart's death, but
searching my gmail archives I only found this old message from Spike.
Anyway, wanted to share this article I got via Google+:
http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/
A few words on Doug Engelbart
Bret Victor / July 3, 2013
Doug Engelbart died today. His work has always been very difficult for
writers to interpret and explain.
Technology writers, in particular, tend to miss the point miserably,
because they see everything as a technology problem. Engelbart devoted his
life to a human problem, with technology falling out as part of a solution.
When I read tech writers' interviews with Engelbart, I imagine these
writers interviewing George Orwell, asking in-depth probing questions about
his typewriter.
Here's the most facile interpretation of Engelbart, splendidly exhibited by
this New York Times headline:
Douglas C. Engelbart, Inventor of the Computer Mouse, Dies at 88
This is as if you found the person who invented writing, and credited them
for inventing the pencil. (This analogy may be more apt than any of us are
comfortable with.)
Then there's the shopping list interpretation:
His system, called NLS, showed actual instances of, or precursors to,
hypertext, shared screen collaboration, multiple windows, on-screen video
teleconferencing, and the mouse as an input device.
These are not true statements.
* * *
Engelbart had an intent, a goal, a mission. He stated it clearly and in
depth. He intended to augment human intellect. He intended to boost
collective intelligence and enable knowledge workers to think in powerful
new ways, to collectively solve urgent global problems.
The problem with saying that Engelbart "invented hypertext", or "invented
video conferencing", is that you are attempting to make sense of the past
using references to the present. "Hypertext" is a word that has a
particular meaning for us today. By saying that Engelbart invented
hypertext, you ascribe that meaning to Engelbart's work.
Almost any time you interpret the past as "the present, but cruder", you
end up missing the point. But in the case of Engelbart, you miss the point
in spectacular fashion.
Our hypertext is not the same as Engelbart's hypertext, because it does not
serve the same purpose. Our video conferencing is not the same as
Engelbart's video conferencing, because it does not serve the same purpose.
They may look similar superficially, but they have different meanings. They
are homophones, if you will.
Here's an example.
* * *
Say you bring up his 1968 demo on YouTube and watch a bit. At one point,
the face of a remote collaborator, Bill Paxton, appears on screen, and
Engelbart and Paxton have a conversation.
"Ah!", you say. "That's like Skype!"
Then, Engelbart and Paxton start simultaneously working with the document
on the screen.
"Ah!", you say. "That's like screen sharing!"
No. It is not like screen sharing at all.
If you look closer, you'll notice that there are two individual mouse
cursors. Engelbart and Paxton are each controlling their own cursor.
"Okay," you say, "so they have separate cursors, and when we screen share
today, we have to fight over a single cursor. That's a trivial detail; it's
still basically the same thing."
No. It is not the same thing. At all. It misses the intent of the design,
and for a research system, the intent matters most.
Engelbart's vision, from the beginning, was collaborative. His vision was
people working together in a shared intellectual space. His entire system
was designed around that intent.
>From that perspective, separate cursors weren't a feature so much as a
symptom. It was the only design that could have made any sense. It just
fell out. The collaborators both have to point at information on the
screen, in the same way that they would both point at information on a
chalkboard. Obviously they need their own pointers.
Likewise, for every aspect of Engelbart's system. The entire system was
designed around a clear intent.
Our screen sharing, on the other hand, is a bolted-on hack that doesn't
alter the single-user design of our present computers. Our computers are
fundamentally designed with a single-user assumption through-and-through,
and simply mirroring a display remotely doesn't magically transform them
into collaborative environments.
If you attempt to make sense of Engelbart's design by drawing
correspondences to our present-day systems, you will miss the point,
because our present-day systems do not embody Engelbart's intent. Engelbart
hated our present-day systems.
* * *
If you truly want to understand NLS, you have to forget today. Forget
everything you think you know about computers. Forget that you think you
know what a computer is. Go back to 1962. And then read his intent.
The least important question you can ask about Engelbart is, "What did he
build?" By asking that question, you put yourself in a position to admire
him, to stand in awe of his achievements, to worship him as a hero. But
worship isn't useful to anyone. Not you, not him.
The most important question you can ask about Engelbart is, "What world was
he trying to create?" By asking that question, you put yourself in a
position to create that world yourself.
----
On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 1:17 PM, spike wrote:
>
> ... I will grant at the same time that the US Patent office seems to have
> severe Alzheimers...spike
>
> Good story for you guys that involves extropians and patents: a few years
> ago we got an invitation to a party at the home of Doug Englebart, the
> Xerox
> PARC guy who invented the mouse and a bunch of other computer stuff. So we
> went up there and there were about thirty or so extropian types, the
> cryonics crowd, sci-fi fans, the usual suspects that show up at these sorts
> of events, but no Doug. So I started asking around, who organized this and
> where's Doug etc, and no one knew so I was scouting around trying to figure
> out why we were having this big party at this guy's house and he isn't even
> home.
>
> I started to suspect it was all bogus. Perhaps someone knew he would be
> out
> for the evening, rigged a big gag by inviting a bunch of yahoos, then the
> cops show up and we all end up in jail for breaking and entering har har
> and
> so forth. We were there about a couple hours and still no host or home
> owner, and I was just feeling a bit uneasy about the whole thing and
> started
> to drift towards the door, when up shows Doug, assuring us it was all as
> planned but he had another engagement earlier that evening, couldn't be
> cancelled and yakkity yak and bla bla. Then he ended up chatting with my
> wife and me for about fifteen minutes right there in his own front entryway
> before even greeting the other guests, then took us on a tour through his
> house, showing us his computer inventions and so forth.
>
> Then he excused himself and went off to bed. Doug was about 80 at the
> time,
> so his being tired is certainly understandable, but to retire for the
> evening with about thirty geeks in his house was I thought extraordinary.
> To
> let us have a party in his house while he was gone, then leave us as long
> as
> we wanted to stay with no apparent person in charge. Trusting sort. {8-]
> And about the nicest guy you ever met.
>
> In any case: he was telling us about how much trouble he had in the late
> 60s
> in patenting the mouse. The Xerox PARC guys had an earlier version of the
> mouse which had two parallel wheels for which Doug did get a patent, but it
> wasn't a successful design. There was a better version which he made from
> inverting a trackball, writing the software to reverse the controls and
> arranging the ergonomics to fit the hand. Sound familiar? Are you using
> something like that right now? Or did back in the 80s and 90s? The
> trademark office refused to give him a patent for that! They argued that
> it
> was just an upside down trackball with clever software, but they didn't
> award trademarks or patents for software. {8^D
> Haaaahahahahahaaaaheeeheehehee. {8-] That is just too funny. They
> wouldn't give him a patent for an inverted track ball. Eventually he
> managed to get some rights to that, which he sold to another one of the
> locals (Steve Jobs) for a song, when the patent for the trackball was still
> active and expensive, which is why most PCs have a mouse instead of a
> trackball to this day.
>
> Doug commented that later someone was awarded a patent for painting
> eyeballs
> and whiskers on a computer mouse to make it look like a mouse. The patent
> office by that time not only awarded patents for software, but for painting
> a mouse to look like a mouse. Presumably if someone painted a mouse to
> look
> like a mole or a rat, they could get yet another fresh patent. Society's
> attitude toward intellectual property has experienced a remarkable
> revolution since Doug was a young inventor.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com Thu Jul 4 17:27:15 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 10:27:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] patents was RE: simulation as an improvement over reality
In-Reply-To:
References:
<001d01cba396$c622ea70$5268bf50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <00ee01ce78db$bac55ab0$30501010$@rainier66.com>
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 9:42 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] patents was RE: simulation as an improvement over reality
>.I could have sworn I saw a message here about Doug Englebart's death, but
searching my gmail archives I only found this old message from Spike.
Anyway, wanted to share this article I got via Google+:
http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/
A few words on Doug Engelbart
Bret Victor / July 3, 2013
>.Doug Engelbart died today. His work has always been very difficult for
writers to interpret and explain.
>.
----
On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 1:17 PM, spike wrote:
>>... I will grant at the same time that the US Patent office seems to have
severe Alzheimers...spike
>>.Good story for you guys that involves extropians and patents: a few
years
ago we got an invitation to a party at the home of Doug Englebart, the Xerox
PARC guy who invented the mouse and a bunch of other computer stuff.
Society's
attitude toward intellectual property has experienced a remarkable
revolution since Doug was a young inventor. spike
_______________________________________________
Dave, thanks for bringing back fond memories of that party at Doug's house.
I just checked my notes; it happened on 11 December 1999. There were about
a couple dozen geeks at Doug's house and he wasn't even there. Everybody
standing around talking technerdery, the guy had about a jillion dollars'
worth of paintings on the wall, and no one I could find even knew who was
hosting the party. It was BYOB. All these expensive bottles of wine on the
table and almost no one was drinking much of anything. Whoever opened the
door had evidently left already, and no one actually knew who had organized
the event. It was an early example of what would later be refined into the
concept of a flash mob.
When Doug finally did show up at about 10 pm, he talked for a while with my
wife and me, then went on off to bed, with a couple dozen geeks still in his
own home! No one in charge, no apparent host or center of attention, just a
bunch of technology fans. Now THAT is an example of spontaneous order from
chaos.
spike
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From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Jul 4 18:18:51 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2013 20:18:51 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
<001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
<002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
<006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
<20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
<00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
<003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
<008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
<00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
<018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
<018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com> <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
<01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
Il 03/07/2013 15:48, spike ha scritto:
>> ...You could be innocent like Jesus and you would end on the Cross willing
> or not...
> Innocent like Jesus? Like hell! Did you forget about this ugly little
> incident:
> 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the
> changers of money sitting:
>
> 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of
> the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money,
> and overthrew the tables;
>
> 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
> Father's house an house of merchandise... {John Chapter 2}
>
> How do they figure this guy was sinless?
What part of "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise..." is
obscure?
The merchants were a bunch of squatters squatting in his father's home.
He was dealing with a home invasion is the kindlest way possible.
In fact, the episode do not report any merchant being harmed or
resorting to call the local police (or the guards of the Sinedrium).
In fact, when he was put on trial, in chains, no one charged him with
assault or anything else.
Mirco
From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 18:48:12 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 19:48:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
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Message-ID:
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> The merchants were a bunch of squatters squatting in his father's home.
> He was dealing with a home invasion is the kindlest way possible.
> In fact, the episode do not report any merchant being harmed or
> resorting to call the local police (or the guards of the Sinedrium).
> In fact, when he was put on trial, in chains, no one charged him with
> assault or anything else.
>
>
Heh! :) Of course the reports don't say anything nasty. They were
written by Jesus' followers many years later to show him in a good
light. These aren't the police evidence documents, you know. :)
BillK
From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Jul 4 20:06:19 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 13:06:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Seoul Korea
Message-ID: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>
Hi Everyone!
A French writer who is living in Seoul wants to meet up with transhumanists
in Korea to interview for his new book. His first book is on the post-human
future.
Please let us know if you have any contacts for this hopeful writer.
Thank you,
Natasha
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From tech101 at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 22:13:43 2013
From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:13:43 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Seoul Korea
In-Reply-To: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>
References: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID:
I believe Sebastian Seung is Korean : http://hebb.mit.edu/people/seung/
Though I doubt he is in Korea at the moment. Sebastian may know of other
transhumanists in Korea.
It would be great if a chapter could be started in Korea.
Kind regards,
Adam A. Ford
Director - Humanity+ Global, Director - Humanity+ Australia, Chair - Humanity+
@ Melbourne Summit
Chair - Singularity Summit Australia
Director - Future Day
Mob: +61 421 979 977 | Email: tech101 at gmail.com
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