Nathan, in your posts you held that Jesus is a spirit.When I countered that by quoting the Scripture; Jesus' own words, that He was flesh and bones and not a spirit, then you went balistic and went into character assassination mode against me. Then Brian joined in the bashing party with cp as the choir boy singing praises to whoever was bashing me.

And yet you still hold to your innocense in this matter. Next time, if you disagree with me just say you don't agree. You don't have to have a temper tantrum and character assassinate one who does not agree with you.

If you can't control your emotions then just don't post. It's that simple.

Tony

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 04:52:45 PM by Tony N »

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Tony, I really am curious as to your response to what I wrote below......

Tony, you wrote.......

Brian, you keep deflecting away from the real problem. It is not about me wanting people to hold me in highest esteem or that I believe I am beyond reproach. The point is what you and Nathan were doing in your attempts to character assassinate me because I held views different from you guys. You two got frustrated so you lashed out at the messenger. I am in Christ. I am a believer. Christ's spirit is in me. So when you abuse me, you abuse Christ. And what if I am a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who abuse such ones?

Tony, do you see yourself as in the wrong anywhere in this situation? I know you see yourself as the abused one who is wrongfully accused of so many things but do you view your behavior as Christlike in all of the the transactions in the threads you are involved in?

If you see yourself in the wrong somewhere could you please explain where you see yourself wrong?

Tony, one last thing, what if you are not a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who has been confronted and willed not to change but to defend himself, something Jesus did not do at the cross?

Molly it's all very constructive if one has the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

The Choir Boy

Great. So could we all sing together then? Because there is one Spirit, but his voice are the voices of many waters. If you've ever been in a choir, groups of people are singing different notes, but if everyone is on pitch, when it comes together--it's beautiful.

Revelation 4:5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 1:15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Call someone a hypocrite, snake, that they are of their father the devil?

But Paul, who was Jesus speaking to? It wasn't another brother. These people were trying to kill him. If everyone on here called each other by these names what do you think would happen? A big BAN.

CHB

Quote from: Brian

Well, I don't think He called the Pharisees hypocrites, snakes, and that they are of their father the devil because they were out to kill Him. He called them those things because they were:

(John 8:39-41) "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God; this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father".

Jesus goes on to say, "if God were your Father ye would love me", and tells them they are of their father the Devil. I know this wasn't the only reason Jesus called them snakes, vipers, and hyprocrites.

Anyway, Jesus could call anyone these things in love and mercy but not us, the human nature in all of us doesn't judge righteously like that of Jesus.

Quote from: Brian

Shutting the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. (Mat. 23:13-14)

Making converts twice as much a son of hell as the converters themselves are. (Mat. 23:15)

Claiming that swearing by the temple is nothing, but claiming that swearing by the temple's gold is everything. (Mat. 23:16-22)

Obeying the minutiae of the law (such as giving up a tithe) but neglecting the important facets (such as justice, and mercy) - metaphorically straining out a gnat but swallowing a camel. (Mat. 23:23-24)

Being shallow - metaphorically cleaning the outside of the cup and dish but leaving the inside full of greed and self-indulgence. (Mat. 23:25-26)

Hypocrisy - appearing righteous but actually being full of wickedness, metaphorically like whitewashed tombs, beautiful on the outside, but full of dead men's bones. (Mat. 23:23-27) Claiming that they would have behaved better than their forefathers - even though they build and respect the tombs of those who murdered the prophets. (Mat. 23:29-36)

Mind you this didn't apply to every Tom, Dick and Harry in Judea. But exclusively to the Priesthood.

I believe the main reason Jesus called them snakes, vipers, and hyprocrites, was because of their attitude, intentions, and self righteousness towards their own works. They put works before mercy, love, compassion, which is the fruits of the Spirit.

Quote from: Brian

The thing is. What's to keep a false, bad, misguided, delusional, wacky etc. teacher from comparing himself to Christ and those pointing out his error as Pharisees?

God. Only he knows the whole truth anyway. The pharisees and and a lot of the Jew's were mistaken in Jesus' day, so who's to say this isn't possible today. One has to be careful I think when calling someone a false teacher and so forth

Quote from: Brian

This is usually how it goes. I think the true divider is, if someone truly thinks someone to be a false, bad, misguided, delusional, whacky etc. teacher and points it out. Or if someone is purposefully maliciously attacking someone's character, reputation etc. Now the false, bad, misguided, delusional, wacky etc. teacher will of course accuse them of this.And this is where God comes in: If someone is purposefully maliciously attacking someone's character, reputation etc. then they are of course under His judgment. However, if someone truly thinks someone is a false, bad, misguided, delusional, wacky etc. teacher and points it out, then they are either correct or simply mistaken. I listen to pastors and teachers on the radio all the time who point out those who they consider to be false, bad, misguided, delusional, wacky etc. teachers. But it's not being done out of malice or hatred or false motives, it's being done because that person sincerely believes the person they are addressing on the airwaves is false, bad, misguided, delusional, wacky etc.

Does any of those teachers you are referring to repent and change their ways that you know of? Isn't it up to God to change a persons heart, pray tell how can any of us change it?

Tony, I really am curious as to your response to what I wrote below......

Tony, you wrote.......

Brian, you keep deflecting away from the real problem. It is not about me wanting people to hold me in highest esteem or that I believe I am beyond reproach. The point is what you and Nathan were doing in your attempts to character assassinate me because I held views different from you guys. You two got frustrated so you lashed out at the messenger. I am in Christ. I am a believer. Christ's spirit is in me. So when you abuse me, you abuse Christ. And what if I am a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who abuse such ones?

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Tony, do you see yourself as in the wrong anywhere in this situation? I know you see yourself as the abused one who is wrongfully accused of so many things but do you view your behavior as Christlike in all of the the transactions in the threads you are involved in?

cp, it's not about if I am wrong in this situation. The problem is I am allowed to post my scriptural based beliefs without the threat of being character assassinated by someone who can't control their emotions.

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If you see yourself in the wrong somewhere could you please explain where you see yourself wrong?

That is a deflection from the real issue of me being character assassinated for stating what I believe.

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Tony, one last thing, what if you are not a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who has been confronted and willed not to change but to defend himself, something Jesus did not do at the cross?

cp

Again, that is a deflection away from the real problem here which is I am allowed to post my beliefs on these boards as long as they are biblically oriented without threat of being character assassinated.

Logged

Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Tony, I really am curious as to your response to what I wrote below......

Tony, you wrote.......

Brian, you keep deflecting away from the real problem. It is not about me wanting people to hold me in highest esteem or that I believe I am beyond reproach. The point is what you and Nathan were doing in your attempts to character assassinate me because I held views different from you guys. You two got frustrated so you lashed out at the messenger. I am in Christ. I am a believer. Christ's spirit is in me. So when you abuse me, you abuse Christ. And what if I am a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who abuse such ones?

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Tony, do you see yourself as in the wrong anywhere in this situation? I know you see yourself as the abused one who is wrongfully accused of so many things but do you view your behavior as Christlike in all of the the transactions in the threads you are involved in?

cp, it's not about if I am wrong in this situation. The problem is I am allowed to post my scriptural based beliefs without the threat of being character assassinated by someone who can't control their emotions.

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If you see yourself in the wrong somewhere could you please explain where you see yourself wrong?

That is a deflection from the real issue of me being character assassinated for stating what I believe.

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Tony, one last thing, what if you are not a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who has been confronted and willed not to change but to defend himself, something Jesus did not do at the cross?

cp

Again, that is a deflection away from the real problem here which is I am allowed to post my beliefs on these boards as long as they are biblically oriented without threat of being character assassinated.

Major red flags to me Tony. You cannot admit you are wrong in any way yet you freely judge others as wrong. You have set yourself up as judge and executioner.

The real problem is when a lack of humility and grace appear within us and it moves to the outer court. Our real problem is not being able to admit we are sinners and very prone to error.

You love that term 'character assassination' and you call me a choir boy in a not very flattering manner.

Tony, I just can't believe you can't or won't answer my questions. That is beyond me.

Tony, I really am curious as to your response to what I wrote below......

Tony, you wrote.......

Brian, you keep deflecting away from the real problem. It is not about me wanting people to hold me in highest esteem or that I believe I am beyond reproach. The point is what you and Nathan were doing in your attempts to character assassinate me because I held views different from you guys. You two got frustrated so you lashed out at the messenger. I am in Christ. I am a believer. Christ's spirit is in me. So when you abuse me, you abuse Christ. And what if I am a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who abuse such ones?

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Tony, do you see yourself as in the wrong anywhere in this situation? I know you see yourself as the abused one who is wrongfully accused of so many things but do you view your behavior as Christlike in all of the the transactions in the threads you are involved in?

cp, it's not about if I am wrong in this situation. The problem is I am allowed to post my scriptural based beliefs without the threat of being character assassinated by someone who can't control their emotions.

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If you see yourself in the wrong somewhere could you please explain where you see yourself wrong?

That is a deflection from the real issue of me being character assassinated for stating what I believe.

Quote

Tony, one last thing, what if you are not a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who has been confronted and willed not to change but to defend himself, something Jesus did not do at the cross?

cp

Again, that is a deflection away from the real problem here which is I am allowed to post my beliefs on these boards as long as they are biblically oriented without threat of being character assassinated.

Major red flags to me Tony. You cannot admit you are wrong in any way yet you freely judge others as wrong. You have set yourself up as judge and executioner.

The real problem is when a lack of humility and grace appear within us and it moves to the outer court. Our real problem is not being able to admit we are sinners and very prone to error.

You love that term 'character assassination' and you call me a choir boy in a not very flattering manner.

Tony, I just can't believe you can't or won't answer my questions. That is beyond me.

cp

Nothing yet Tony???

I am here to learn and I am learning tons by your refusal or,most likely, your inability to answer my questions to you. I truely love human nature and what it can and can't do.

So rather than change, they change the focus from where their theology is wrong to focusing on the messenger, me.

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Oh, so we're all supposed to change/conform to someone's personal brand of theology? Even if the messenger is the inventor?

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No, that's not the point. No one, myself included is telling you that you have to change/conform to the biblical perspective of what I've said. But these are message boards and last I looked, we are allowed to give our opinion of what we believe the Bible says on a given issue without the threat of being character assassinated.[/size][/font]

I guess that "rather than change" statement threw me off. You know like change as in conform. Change their minds. I guess what you're really getting at are ad hominem attacks. Which is attacking the person rather than the subject matter. The problem in a situation like this is, what if I were to make blanket statements along the lines of "Jesus was really an android"? Now is someone supposed to address such a statement from a Scriptural theological standpoint? Let's say they do, but I persist in maintaining my position. Now of course I wouldn't have a Scriptural or theological leg to stand on to maintain my position, so I'd have to resort to strategy. Maybe I've read a few books with titles like "How to never lose an argument". I realize in this forum that people are supposed to be allowed to give their opinion of what we believe the Bible says. But I will say this. If it's an opinion, than it should be clearly stated as such, rather than being presented as if it were a fact. If a person has no direct Scriptural backing to support their belief, then they should be clear about that, instead of dodging that point and trying to intellectualize their way around it.

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So rather than them seeing anything wrong on their end, they go so low as to accuse me of all manner of evil in the hopes that this refocusing on me will deflect away from them and their defects.

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The pendulum has swung both ways in those regards.

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I have not accused you of all manner of evil in hopes of refocusing away from me.

Untrue. You have accused me of having ulterior motives which I did not have. (not to mention being in legue with Satan)

I had no hopes of refocusing away from you. Take a look at my activity record here. I'm barely here anymore. If you see a day where I haven't posted, it's most likely a day I haven't been here period, even to lurk. a few days ago, I started a post, this post. Where the focus (on my part) was a huge dichotomy in Catholicism regarding Salvation. When I came back to it, it had gone in different directions. Which is fine.But I did not try reading through all of the posts to try figuring out what different direction it had taken.

Where you and I got into it was post 163 & 165 - exclusively. Quite frankly I have no idea where the focus had gone or what you had been trying to establish overall. So it would be impossible to try deflecting, or whatever it is you're accusing me of. I have yet to read more than like 10% of my own thread, beyond our discourse. So you have falsely accused me in these regards. In other words, you were mistaken. Simple as that. Nothing involving Satan. Nothing involving the wrath of God. You simply came to an erroneous conclusion.

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Hey, they did it to Jesus when He brought to light all the bad theology of the Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees. And look what they did to Him. First, to deflect attention away from themselves they accuse Him of having a demon, being a drunkard and one who eats with sinners and born illegitimately. When that deflection didn't work they crucified Him.

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I know Jesus. Jesus is a friend of mine. You are not Jesus.

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But, Brian, you see, that is where you are wrong. Everyone who is a true, genuine believer is Jesus. We have the spirit of Christ in us. We are in fact in the body of Christ and one member can't say to another member "I have no need of you." We as a plurality of believers are also the temple of God. So if you mistreat me you in fact mistreat Jesus.When the nations will persecute Christ's brethren Christ will tell them" "When you do it to the least of these My brethren, you do it to Me." When Paul persecuted Christ's brethren Christ said: "I am Jesus Whom thou persecutest."

Good point. It sorta sounded like you were exalting yourself there. And you do realize in the process reducing me to the position of a Pharisee? In other words, perhaps not part of the body. Perhaps accusing me of not really being a Christian. Simply because I called your modus operandi into question, out of genuine worry. The thing is Tony, this occurs all the time within the body of Christ. Was Paul for instance attacking the character of, or persecuting the Corinthians? Not that I'm putting myself in the role of Paul or you in the role of the Corinthians.But I think it's a closer analogy than one of Christ and the Pharisees, in this instance.

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I see these people are not repenting of this abuse of me so I must *sigh* give them over to God and let Him deal with them.May He be merciful to them in that day

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Do you like consider yourself God's anointed one? His special messenger, bringing special truth?And that God will actually hold those accountable on that day who don't hold thee in the highest of esteem and that thou art beyond any reproach?

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Brian, you keep deflecting away from the real problem. It is not about me wanting people to hold me in highest esteem or that I believe I am beyond reproach. The point is what you and Nathan were doing in your attempts to character assassinate me because I held views different from you guys. You two got frustrated so you lashed out at the messenger. I am in Christ. I am a believer. Christ's spirit is in me. So when you abuse me, you abuse Christ. And what if I am a messenger of God? Where does that leave you who abuse such ones?

Well first of all, you need to stop lumping me and Nathan together. When I asked him what he had written that he was wondering if he would get banned for, I honestly didn't know, because I hadn't been following my thread. I certainly had no idea it was something he had said about you.

I don't know Nathan very well, I really have no real idea of what his theological stances are. I only sided with his appraisal of your modus operandi as stated in the beginning of post 168, which he had to direct me to. So you see, for me the focus was your modus operandi, rather than a deflection. Now here's where I made some bad mistakes. Not bad mistakes that put me in league with Satan or would invoke the Wrath of God. But bad mistakes nonetheless. First of all, I should have read the entire thread to see exactly what prompted Nathan to say what he had to say about you. In not doing so I of course read it out of context. Then coupled it with a lengthy PM session with you. My statements were based much more on my PM's with you, than anything being discussed in this thread, so again, I had no agenda to "deflect".

Now here's where I repent (no salivating now ). I most certainly have not been of sound mind and body the last couple of days, having been afflicted with the flu, which included running a fever. Not being of sound mind, I had no business posting anything about anything anywhere. I woke up this morning with all of this previous discourse swirling through my head, and felt the Holy Spirit convicting me for a lack of temperance. While I was not of sound enough mind to be making statements, I was aware that I wasn't of sound mind. It's like I had the presence of mind to know it was a bad idea for me go get in my car and get on the freeway in my condition, I should have known better than to post in my condition as well.

So, I, Brian, publicly apologize for anything I said about you, Tony N, in this thread.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 11:27:05 PM by Brian »

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For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

And Taffy, speaking of popcorn.......you're gonna love this......I once in prayer saw the sons of God that are going thru the fire right now, popping up like literal popcorn, ie. Christ which is internal is coming out, and raising up.

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

And Taffy, speaking of popcorn.......you're gonna love this......I once in prayer saw the sons of God that are going thru the fire right now, popping up like literal popcorn, ie. Christ which is internal is coming out, and raising up.

ya Right Card, I did...thats cool.

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Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

And Taffy, speaking of popcorn.......you're gonna love this......I once in prayer saw the sons of God that are going thru the fire right now, popping up like literal popcorn, ie. Christ which is internal is coming out, and raising up.