......but i remember what it felt like to believe that. it felt fantastic. man, look at me - i know god's will! i am unstoppable! woohoo! but i've never seen anyone claim that who could demonstrate anything very spectacular or supernatural in their lives, and the believers i've met who did seem to have some real wisdom never made these kinds of claims.

It is fantastic. I, like you, believed with childlike faith and became disheartened and took off to live in the world. But I came back to Him and now I know that HE IS FANTASTIC...FOR REAL!!! It is not about grandstanding for me. I don't feel great about being so good and that type of thing. It's about finding life in Him...real companionship and joy with Him in the depth of my soul. I relate well to the lady at the well who was so thirsty for a drink of God Himself. I know what it means that He is my bread from heaven.

Sure, you can find pride in every walk of life. Man knows a little something. Man starts getting the idea that he can take personal credit for the little he does know. This is true in every walk of life - if you get my drift.

Actually, the christians I know who really know God aren't afraid to speak up and share wonderful things that God has revealed to them. Closet Christians who won't talk ?? How do you know what they know. The Lord thought speaking and revealing God's secrets was a good idea during His tenure on earth and surely He would know. Scriptures teach to "proclaim" the Word and that Word is a living Word. I think it goes way beyond bible verses.

From this it seems that we cannot understand what God understands, or for that matter, even come close to understanding what he thinks or understands.........

The Word never says we will not be taught by God. It specifically states that He will teach us. Mysteries are revealed by revelation. I'm so sorry for those who have never received revelation from God. That doesn't mean there isn't any. That just means that some are still in the dark.

All light and understanding of the things of God and of His workings is from God. There is no intelligence apart from God. But the Wisdom and Knowledge that God reveals is of a spiritual nature and is "spiritually discerned." The natural (non-spiritual) cannot know His secrets according to scripture. "If that light that is in you be darkened, how great is that darkness."

This is the darkness of an Apostate. (not speaking of you Joe.) One who has known God and turns to become his enemy and ridicules other believers because of their faith...this is an Apostate, for any who are confused on this matter.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.."(2 Pet. 1:20). It goes on to state that holy men were moved by the Holy Spirit and spoke. The Holy Bible is a completed book due to these "revelations" given to holy men of God.

Frank--you state you feel sorry for men who have never had a "revelation". I believe I understand what you are saying, but must also state there is a danger when we believe we have received some special revelation that gives us greater wisdom or understanding than others have. This will lead to an elitist attitude where you feel that somehow you are on a higher plane than your "average" Christians are. George suffered from this delusion. George believed he understood what God understood, and thought like God thought. Thus he felt he was somehow enlightened, while others were drowning in darkness, and he led his followers to believe the same thing. That is very dangerous, and is what ultimately gives birth to a cult.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.."(2 Pet. 1:20). It goes on to state that holy men were moved by the Holy Spirit and spoke. The Holy Bible is a completed book due to these "revelations" given to holy men of God.

Frank--you state you feel sorry for men who have never had a "revelation". I believe I understand what you are saying, but must also state there is a danger when we believe we have received some special revelation that gives us greater wisdom or understanding than others have. This will lead to an elitist attitude where you feel that somehow you are on a higher plane than your "average" Christians are. George suffered from this delusion. George believed he understood what God understood, and thought like God thought. Thus he felt he was somehow enlightened, while others were drowning in darkness, and he led his followers to believe the same thing. That is very dangerous, and is what ultimately gives birth to a cult.

--Joe

Joe,

Actually, Frank/Ruth/Sondra's ideas on revelation are almost identical to another poster's beliefs on obtaining understanding of the scriptures by mysticism. If you will recall I kept asking him to share something that he had received in this way on the board.

It never happened.

So Frank/Ruth/Sondra's claim to have received revelation directly from God is easily put to the test.

Actually, Frank/Ruth/Sondra's ideas on revelation are almost identical to another poster's beliefs on obtaining understanding of the scriptures by mysticism. If you will recall I kept asking him to share something that he had received in this way on the board.

It never happened.

So Frank/Ruth/Sondra's claim to have received revelation directly from God is easily put to the test.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.."(2 Pet. 1:20). It goes on to state that holy men were moved by the Holy Spirit and spoke. The Holy Bible is a completed book due to these "revelations" given to holy men of God.

Frank--you state you feel sorry for men who have never had a "revelation". I believe I understand what you are saying, but must also state there is a danger when we believe we have received some special revelation that gives us greater wisdom or understanding than others have. This will lead to an elitist attitude where you feel that somehow you are on a higher plane than your "average" Christians are. George suffered from this delusion. George believed he understood what God understood, and thought like God thought. Thus he felt he was somehow enlightened, while others were drowning in darkness, and he led his followers to believe the same thing. That is very dangerous, and is what ultimately gives birth to a cult.

--Joe

Joe,

I can appreciate the concern regarding private interpretation of prophesy, but revelation is not interpretation of prophesy that I know. Revelation is a revealing of Christ to the heart. It is also a revealing of Truths and Doctrine that gives new understanding to the individual. It is what happens every time you read something from the scripture and find new peace and joy because you have understood the Lord just a little bit better.

The first time I saw the Lord while studying the scriptures (a revelation) I saw Him with my spirit. I knew that it was the Lord that I was seeing and He became more real to me personally. We cannot know the Lord corporately, to my knowledge. He saves and communes with souls as individuals, right? There are less mature believers who have had less revelation than myself and there are many older with more.

What people call revelations where they see things with their physical eyes, I know nothing about.

God is Spirit and so the natural man must see through his spiritual eyes. The Lord said to Peter, flesh and blood has not revealed this (that He was the Son of God). When we see Him as exalted, Son of God....when we believe He is the Son...it is spiritual revelation. Wouldn't you agree?

Having said this, I think that you would agree that as Christians grow in understanding, as they go through years of various trials, etc. they grow in revelation of the scriptures. God means an awful lot more to me today than 10 years ago. Suffering opens deep things that were not perceivable before.

God reveals or gives understanding of His will, His ways, His heart, His love, His character, etc. I study and seek such revelation. It is not something mystical. It is as common for true believers as walking by faith.

Actually, Frank/Ruth/Sondra's ideas on revelation are almost identical to another poster's beliefs on obtaining understanding of the scriptures by mysticism. If you will recall I kept asking him to share something that he had received in this way on the board.

It never happened.

Thomas Maddux

What a remarkable thing. To see a supposedly mature Christian take the position that there is nothing that the Spirit of God can reveal to a child of God from the Scriptures. Tom my friend, I truly feel sorry for you. George's perversion of truth and unfatihful example has done more damage to you than you realise. Still on break so will talk about this later.

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If you will recall I kept asking him to share something that he had received in this way on the board.

It never happened.

Remember the time you pooh-poohed the person on the board who stated that Satan can affect our thinking and challenged anyone to show a verse of Scripture that teaches this?I was quite taken back by your apparent ignorance of the record concerning Judas and pointed out that verse of Scripture to you.Remember the time you challenged my notion that all death is caused by sin by claimaing that predation existed prior to the fall and animals killed for food and I pointed out the passage in Isaiah 11?You never responded to any of these points. I get the impression you never admit to being in error so far as your cosmology is concerned Tom. Why would I want to talk to you about anything the Lord has revealed to me, when you clearly do not accept what is plainly written in Scripture?Verne

I can appreciate the concern regarding private interpretation of prophesy, but revelation is not interpretation of prophesy that I know. Revelation is a revealing of Christ to the heart. It is also a revealing of Truths and Doctrine that gives new understanding to the individual. It is what happens every time you read something from the scripture and find new peace and joy because you have understood the Lord just a little bit better.

The first time I saw the Lord while studying the scriptures (a revelation) I saw Him with my spirit. I knew that it was the Lord that I was seeing and He became more real to me personally. We cannot know the Lord corporately, to my knowledge. He saves and communes with souls as individuals, right? There are less mature believers who have had less revelation than myself and there are many older with more.

What people call revelations where they see things with their physical eyes, I know nothing about.

God is Spirit and so the natural man must see through his spiritual eyes. The Lord said to Peter, flesh and blood has not revealed this (that He was the Son of God). When we see Him as exalted, Son of God....when we believe He is the Son...it is spiritual revelation. Wouldn't you agree?

Having said this, I think that you would agree that as Christians grow in understanding, as they go through years of various trials, etc. they grow in revelation of the scriptures. God means an awful lot more to me today than 10 years ago. Suffering opens deep things that were not perceivable before.

God reveals or gives understanding of His will, His ways, His heart, His love, His character, etc. I study and seek such revelation. It is not something mystical. It is as common for true believers as walking by faith.

frank

What does "I saw him in the spirit" mean?

Are you saying that revelation (God's revealing) is a result of understanding the meaning of a particular Scripture that you are studying (kind of an ah-ha moment when we suddenly figure something out)? Or are you using the word "revelation" in the sense of God speaking to you directly above and beyond the meaning that anyone could understand by simply reading the text? Or does God reveal impressions to you by bypassing the intellect completly and revealing impressions directly to your spirit? Wouldn't the latter two be considered mystical?

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that revelation (God's revealing) is a result of understanding the meaning of a particular Scripture that you are studying (kind of an ah-ha moment when we suddenly figure something out)?

Yes. When we gain an understanding spiritually of a spiritual concept that helps us to know God or His character, etc. better, we have had something revealed to us....revelation.

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Or are you using the word "revelation" in the sense of God speaking to you directly above and beyond the meaning that anyone could understand by simply reading the text?

No.

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Or does God reveal impressions to you by bypassing the intellect completely and revealing impressions directly to your spirit?

No. But there is a mind of the spirit that is separate from the natural mind, as I see it. But no, there can be no revelation apart from the intellect as in some sort of experience I suppose you are suggesting.

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Wouldn't the latter two be considered mystical ?

I think the second and third types are mystical, although revelation of mysteries sometimes don't seem to have much to do with reasoning - rather more of an enlightenment or a dawning. Still, how can we process understanding without our intellect.

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I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

There would be no reason to think you were.

I have been studying something related to this. What happens to our understanding when we no longer have a physical brain....after this life? Any idea, Dave?

p.s. A friend just reminded me of another important aspect of revelation is the revelation of our human depravity. He spoke on Is 6:1 last Sunday and spoke on "And I saw the Lord..." In addition, he (Isaih) saw his depravity. These were things he (Isaiah) didn't see before as he did then. Very good point.

I realized I missed this point. The spirit of man is as a window, the scriptures teach. God is Spirit and we see Him through that window of our spirit, but it is through understanding of Truth by faith.

Example: I hear that God is faithful. I have a lot of bills and rough financial trials right now, lets say. I am burdened and speak with God regarding my problem. He brings to mind that He is trustworthy and that even though I may not know how He will meet my needs - I receive revelation by faith that He will meet it through seeing His faithfulness and hearing His reassurance. I might even hear Him say, "Peace, be still" or something like that. Just an example and probably not a very good one just off the top of my head.

I saw Him in the spirit, because my natural man wouldn't come up with a solution like this. My natural man only knows how to fret and scheme.

I have been studying something related to this. What happens to our understanding when we no longer have a physical brain....after this life? Any idea, Dave?

I am sure there will still be an "us" when we leave this body and are given our new bodies. I don't really know how this all works. The whole area of what constitutes consciousness is one area that scientists have not been able to figure out. It is something that can still be held in mystery and wonder.

Actually, Frank/Ruth/Sondra's ideas on revelation are almost identical to another poster's beliefs on obtaining understanding of the scriptures by mysticism. If you will recall I kept asking him to share something that he had received in this way on the board.

It never happened.

So Frank/Ruth/Sondra's claim to have received revelation directly from God is easily put to the test.

Frank/Ruth/Sondra....

Enlighten us. What has been revealed to to you?

Couldn't you at least let a few crumbs fall from the table?

Thomas Maddux

Sure, Tom. One thing that God has revealed to me just through your post is that you cannot teach someone something who is always the teacher. There is no learning capacity. I receive revelation every day almost. Some of the best revelation I receive is what I have revealed to me through the proud and arrogant who don't believe they have anything new to have revealed to them by the Lord. It never ceases to amaze me and always makes me fear mySELF. It's all been said and done in their minds. The lack of expectation to hear from God, the living God is BORING, BORING, BORING. Please, if I knew I would have to live like that, just take me now, Lord.

No need? People who don't know their great need and depravity, as my friend shared, aren't desperate to see the Lord and therefore, they are cold and shut up in their own intellects....they keep learning, but never arriving at the truth.

Are you going to say that I have judged you? I have. Based upon your own words in this post (and others) I have a couple things revealed to me. No revelation of one's need. No revelation of one's Savior is possible. No revelation of the Savior "for MY SOUL" - no salvation. Painful but true.

There are a lot of people who know a lot more than I do and you are one of them, but I am concerned that you might not know the Lord. Could that be possible? It is for you to search your heart. I read your post where you said you wanted to serve the Lord for the rest of your days...that that would be a joy for you. But is that service about what you can do through your intellect and education or is the thought of serving the Lord about seeing Him and learning through fresh revelation so that you can have a freshly revealed, living Word to share, Tom? Will you have fresh revelation so that you may be a part of the great orchestration of God in the lives of the hurting and give them a word in season.

What a remarkable thing. To see a supposedly mature Christian take the position that there is nothing that the Spirit of God can reveal to a child of God from the Scriptures. Tom my friend, I truly feel sorry for you. George's perversion of truth and unfatihful example has done more damage to you than you realise. Still on break so will talk about this later.Verne

Verne,

In our former discussion I maintained that truth was communicated through the scriptures by word meaning, grammatical construction, and sound principles of interpretation. The natural man, (which means the unregenerate man, not the spiritually immature man) does not receive God's truth. It doesn't mean he cannot understand it. he rejects it.

You kept saying that truth is revealed directly. I challenged you to give an example of such truth...and you failed to do so.

I am sure there will still be an "us" when we leave this body and are given our new bodies. I don't really know how this all works. The whole area of what constitutes consciousness is one area that scientists have not been able to figure out. It is something that can still be held in mystery and wonder.

From what I have read, the brain cannot account for the mind. They interact, but are not merely two aspects of the same entity.

Sure, Tom. One thing that God has revealed to me just through your post is that you cannot teach someone something who is always the teacher.

So you do not only get revelation through the word of God, but even through my posts. Interesting. I was not aware that my words were inspired. But if Sondra says so.....

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There is no learning capacity. I receive revelation every day almost. Some of the best revelation I receive is what I have revealed to me through the proud and arrogant who don't believe they have anything new to have revealed to them by the Lord.

You have reached such a state of advanced spirituality that merely disagreeing with you renders us "proud and arrogant". Must be nice.

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It never ceases to amaze me and always makes me fear mySELF. It's all been said and done in their minds. The lack of expectation to hear from God, the living God is BORING, BORING, BORING. Please, if I knew I would have to live like that, just take me now, Lord.

So mere Christianity isn't good enough for you? Believing and obeying God is boring? I think most folks would disagree with you.