i am not familiar enough with all the protection/ring sport/sch. disciplines to say what i think of them all.

one thing has been bothering me about all this lately tho: there seems to be a growing interest on the part of amateur dog handlers in taking their pit bulls to become involved these various sports. that, to me, is alarming.

partly because i wonder how many of their dogs actually have the right temperament to be involved in protection work without causing potential problems out in public.

the other thing that worries me is the thought of enough people involving pit bulls in these sports and having this become something people see pit bulls doing often--often enough that it adds fuel to the fire when people see pit bulls, they further equate them with biting and aggression.

the general public does NOT know that your pit bulls view these things as "just a game." the general public does NOT understand that a trained PP or what have you dog is very likely a safe dog out in the world.

a lot of this for me is about perception. and it scares the crap out of me to think about PP or bitework as becoming popular enough that people out there in the world--my neighbors, your neighbors--will see pit bulls doing it and think of them as dangerous dogs.

pit bulls face a huge prejudice out there. it's as bad, if not worse, than the prejudices faced by GSDs and dobes and other breeds that have traditionally been involved in these sports.

i don't think that making the breed popular for PP work is going to help that.

i agree with babyreba,i couldnt have said it better then her.. and, another scary part, what if the losers see these dogs doing this type of work, and decide to try to train their pit bulls to do it?? they saw how the dogs used to fight in a pit, and started having their own ideas of pit fighting.... while i understand that it takes a special dog to to this type of work, i truly feel that the pit bull shouldnt be doing it ... any other breed, fine. no problem. but a pit bull? no. i dont like the idea of them doing it, and especially i dont like the idea of average owners now wanting to get into it with their pit bull..

I'd love to train Yaeger in it, he is our youngest GSD, at 4yrs old now. He seems to be "built" for it, mostly built for working and it's a shame to see it go to waste, with him being always "just a pet".

In the begining I was totally against it. Then I started to read about it and asked quetions.

Now I don't see anything wrong with it as long as the trainer is being responible and the dog is having fun. I tend to believe that most Pit bulls are not cut out for it drive wise. I don't think mine are but I will have them evaluated to see. If they have the drive and truly love it I might consider doing it.

If I did I would basically keep it a secret from the general public because of the image problem. The general public does not understand nor will they ever understand the work.

We are much better off with agility, therapy. S&R etc. But even WP will draw fire from the uneducated.

Maryellen wrote:i agree with babyreba,i couldnt have said it better then her.. and, another scary part, what if the losers see these dogs doing this type of work, and decide to try to train their pit bulls to do it?? they saw how the dogs used to fight in a pit, and started having their own ideas of pit fighting.... while i understand that it takes a special dog to to this type of work, i truly feel that the pit bull shouldnt be doing it ... any other breed, fine. no problem. but a pit bull? no. i dont like the idea of them doing it, and especially i dont like the idea of average owners now wanting to get into it with their pit bull..

and it scares the crap out of me to think about PP or bitework as becoming popular enough that people out there in the world--my neighbors, your neighbors--will see pit bulls doing it and think of them as dangerous dogs.

AMEN. What's the point of having a pit bull protection trained anyway? Does it make someone feel "cool", in control..what?Is it so cool to have a dog of this breed who won't hesitate to bite human beings?
There are breeds that are made for this sport, leave it at them.They don't suffer what this breed is suffering.Nobody asks for a ban on Malinois or GSDs and they do bite people.
A pit bull doing agility, obedience, search and rescue , even the silly parade in a local town, and a protection trained pit bull in a trial...which one leave the more positive impression? To the general public anyway. I was at a pet store last saturday and a lady asked to pet one of my fosters because she felt comfortable around this breed, her kids were only allowed to pet Jack while they knew not to touch other dogs in the store.It was almost a miracle to hear that but this is what I like people to think.If I had told her that the dog was trained to bite people I am quite sure she would have stayed away.No matter how well behaved the dog was, nobody likes to be near a dog who can cripple them for life and has no problem doing it.

What scares me also, actually disappoint me, is to see folks who are in the position to guide others into seeing what this breed is about and spit on this opportunity.

Red wrote:AMEN. What's the point of having a pit bull protection trained anyway? Does it make someone feel "cool", in control..what?Is it so cool to have a dog of this breed who won't hesitate to bite human beings?

I know you feel passionately about this topic but I can tell you haven't looked into it very much. I would urge you to learn more about it. I don't think it will change your mind but it will probably change your opinion of most of the people that do these sports responsibly with there pit bulls.

There are breeds that are made for this sport, leave it at them.They don't suffer what this breed is suffering.Nobody asks for a ban on Malinois or GSDs and they do bite people.

I totally agree that there are other breeds that are a much better choice then pit bulls. I also beleive that most pit bulls aren't cut out for out.

A pit bull doing agility, obedience, search and rescue , even the silly parade in a local town, and a protection trained pit bull in a trial...which one leave the more positive impression? To the general public anyway.

Right again imo.

I was at a pet store last saturday and a lady asked to pet one of my fosters because she felt comfortable around this breed, her kids were only allowed to pet Jack while they knew not to touch other dogs in the store.It was almost a miracle to hear that but this is what I like people to think.If I had told her that the dog was trained to bite people I am quite sure she would have stayed away.

I'm sure he would have if you said it that way. If you were involved in bite sport or schutzhund you wouldn't say it that way or at all.

What scares me also, actually disappoint me, is to see folks who are in the position to guide others into seeing what this breed is about and spit on this opportunity.

Personally the people who are involved in these activities on this board do a lot to promote this breed and educate. I don't see anyone "spitting" on the opportunity.

It just sounds like you need to inform yourself a little more about these activities. I really don't think it will change your opinion and I don't think your opinion needs changing. I just think you need to know more about that which you are critisizing. That' all.

mnp13 wrote:Unfortunately the losers will abuse ANY breed of dog in the name of making it a 'protection' dog. It only takes a few minutes of searching the web to see that.

I was at a chowder festival with Wally about a year ago. I was talking to a guy for about 15 minutes about Greyhound stuff. Then the state police K9 unit came out to do a demo. The guy goes "I have a white shepherd and I'm training him to do this stuff." So I said "Oh really? Where are you training?" He says "I'm training him at home. I put on boxing gloves and punch him in the face to make him mean."

I had to excuse myself after that. Otherwise I would have beat the crap out of HIM.

Red wrote:There are breeds that are made for this sport, leave it at them.They don't suffer what this breed is suffering.Nobody asks for a ban on Malinois or GSDs and they do bite people.

Actually there is BSL and descrimination against those breeds. Though not as much as a pit bull, it is still there. Most home owners insurance companies in MA won't cover them, and I know they have breed restrictions in towns all over the country regarding them.

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France

Red wrote:If I had told her that the dog was trained to bite people I am quite sure she would have stayed away.No matter how well behaved the dog was, nobody likes to be near a dog who can cripple them for life and has no problem doing it.

Yeah! Because that is the FIRST thing we say when people meet Connor and Riggs. "Sure, you can pet my dog. He's trained to bite people, but don't worry, he'll only maul you if I tell him to."

Give me a break. It's becoming more and more obvious that you know very very little about bitesport / personal protection.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

RED WRITES: What's the point of having a pit bull protection trained anyway?

FRAIZE WRITES: I could give you a number of reasons. However it sounds (reads) like a rhetorical question. It sounds like you have a strong opinion on the subject and very little understanding or practical experience. I don’t say this to be mean. It just sound like fear doing the talking for you.

I do however understand that this can be a subject of concern if you watch videos or see pictures of fools doing bite work with their dogs (of any breed). It is important to understand that THAT is bad training! What I (we) do is different.

RED WRITES: Does it make someone feel "cool", in control..what?

FRAIZE WRITES: It doesn’t make me feel “cool” in the sense that I believe you mean. However it is “cool” to attain what I believe for me is the highest level of communication possible between dog and handler. It enhances my canine relationship to a point that few could ever understand.

RED WRITES: Is it so cool to have a dog of this breed who won't hesitate to bite human beings?

FRAIZE WRITES: Don’t hesitate to bit humans? Whose personal protection dog does this? My personal protection dog(s) are under more control that any APBT most would encounter. In fact if you met any of them you would never know they were trained for personal protection if I didn’t tell you. Take a look. They can’t bite until they are told. It can be hard to believe but take a look.

RED WRITES: There are breeds that are made for this sport, leave it at them.

FRAIZE WRITES: The only breed “made” for personal protection was the Doberman. The rest are converted herders. There are “guardian” breeds that were bred for “Guard” work. But that is the Junkyard dog stuff again.

Should we take them back to the pit and let them fight? So, what then? The truth is they can do the job better than the breeds that are doing it right now. So why not?

RED WRITES: They don't suffer what this breed is suffering.Nobody asks for a ban on Malinois or GSDs and they do bite people.

FRAIZE WRITES: They will be next. Every breed suffers from BSL. If you can’t see this than you aren’t looking into the future far enough. You should also look into the past. I don’t know if you are old enough to remember but back in the mid 70’s the GSD was getting the press that the APBT is getting now. HOW DI THEY STOP IT? Police K-9 work and Schutzhund played a large part is changing minds and ending the BSL against the GSD.

RED WRITES: A pit bull doing agility, obedience, search and rescue , even the silly parade in a local town, and a protection trained pit bull in a trial...which one leave the more positive impression?

FRAITE WRITES: Pit Bulls were not bred to do agility. Let the other breeds do it. Pit Bulls were not bred to do obedience, let the other breeds do it. Pit Bulls were not bred for SAR, let the other breeds do it. This is your argument from above is it not?

RED WRITES: To the general public anyway. I was at a pet store last saturday and a lady asked to pet one of my fosters because she felt comfortable around this breed, her kids were only allowed to pet Jack while they knew not to touch other dogs in the store.It was almost a miracle to hear that but this is what I like people to think.

FRAIZE WRITES: There are more of these people out there than you think. Glad to hear though!

RED WRITES: If I had told her that the dog was trained to bite people I am quite sure she would have stayed away.No matter how well behaved the dog was, nobody likes to be near a dog who can cripple them for life and has no problem doing it.

FRAIZE WRITES: YIKES! DOGS THAT ARE TRAINED TO CRIPPLE PEOPLE AND HAVE NO PROBLEM DOING IT!?!?! WHERE, WHERE,!!!!! (Kidding!)

Seriously, if that is what you think personal protection training is, you are dead wrong. Knowledge replaces fear. The more knowledge you get, the less you will be afraid.

RED WRITES: What scares me also, actually disappoint me, is to see folks who are in the position to guide others into seeing what this breed is about and spit on this opportunity.

FRAIZE WRITES: Spit on this opportunity? WOW! Harsh words for a person that has changed more minds about the APBT in a single day than most do in a lifetime! Take a look at this. http://www.k9sts.com/news/ that link is a link to a personal protection trained dog in a newspaper doing a BITE PREVENTION SEMINAR.

The press was OUTSTANDING and the U.S. Postal workers there that day LEARNED that the American Pit Bull Terrier ISN’T the MOSNTER they once BELIEVED it was! We changed many minds that day! If my dog(s) wasn’t stable and trained to and EXTREMLY high level, we would have never gotten that positive press for the breed and PREVENTED dog bites that day.

If you think that personal protection work is just a dog that can’t be around people that has no control and can bite when ever it likes, then I understand your fear. There are folks that call that personal protection training. I assure you, IT IS NOT PERSONAL PROTECTION TRAINING.

Folks that understand personal protection training like Demodick, mnp13, and some that didn’t have an understanding about it like sismorphine, mydawgs, and others have been here and walked away with a better understanding of personal protection. Some had an idea of personal protection and others were DEAD SET AGAINST IT! They ALL left feeling better about personal protection work because of the knowledge they gained. None of them has gone away from here thinking OH MY GOD! THAT GUYS DOGS WERE NUTS! Why? Knowledge replaces fear. They know something that you have missed. Personal protection work is just high-level obedience. Really!

You let me know when you would like to and I will fly you out here to one of our competitions at my expense. I will pay for airfare, hotel and meals for you and a friend. I hope to give you the opportunity to see for your self that, the sky is not falling! No one will judge you or harass you. I will see to that. It is simply an offer to let you get more information and achieve a better understanding of personal protection work.

OK, I do not think pit bulls should be used for bitework. These are my reasons.

1) Image. The average non-dog sport person ie over 95% of people out there, do not understand bitework and have no interest in understanding it. You cannot convince them, because they do not care to change their opinions. However, they do have an opinion on dogs trained in it, and that is that they are man stoppers. Every average person who sees a pit bull doing bitework is likely a person who has just been reinforced that pit bulls are man stoppers.

This has nothing to do with training or personal talent, or responsibility to good training, or solidness of temperment; it has to do with the average Joe Head-up-his-a$$ and how that voting citizen will view these dogs.

2) This breed has been trained and bred from day one to NEVER bite people. There is just something I dislike about seeing that one extremely positive trait weeded out of bloodlines. It may not happen right away, but you are going to be selecting for dogs who do not see that as a line never to cross. I realize that the bite suit is what they are going after, and that it is the equivilant of a giant tug toy, but I have a hard time believing that there is not some line crossed for the dog. Especially since part of the play acting for the decoys is yelling, and swatting the dog defensively. There is a desensitization process going on there, however subtle.

3)*My main reason!* I think as reba said, the inclination of inexperienced dog owners to try new trends is a real danger. There are people out there who will train their dogs to do bitework without having the solid obedience or checking for temperment.

Now if those dogs are GSDs, or Mals, quite frankly that is not my problem, as I do not own them nor plan on it. I will leave it for those afficinados to handle. However, when those dogs are pits or other bull breeds, it IS my problem. I could lose my dogs. As it is we officially have a lab/boxer cross because our insurance would not cover a pit bull.

Second, the pits (and other bull/terrier breeds) do have a switch in them that they do not stop for pain, or noise, or anything. A pit could do a huge amount of damage to someone, and then to anyone trying to break up the attack if it has no human bite inhibition. I realize any dog could be like this, but bull and terrier breeds are different than working breeds. The combination of traits that makes us love them so is what also can make them so dangerous. We in fact DO love them BECAUSE despite their ability, stubborness, gameness and drive, that they are such lovemonkeys and so solid with people.
Add in that these same people will breed dogs for 'temperment', which at that point will mean no bite inhibition.

The average Joe Head- up -his -a$$ will not understand or care that the pit who mauls the local child or old lady was bred by an idiot who has no knowledge nor acceptance into serious breeding programs. Joe Head up his a$$ will only care that it was a pit, and in keeping his missus Judy Head -up -his -a$$ and the little Heads -up -his- a$$ safe from harm.

Before I get lynched, let me say that the last paragraph is talking about inexpirienced people training and breeding, NOT ones like Chris who are obviously very responsible. The problem is that not everyone IS like Chris, and those are the ones who will screw the breed over. Anyhoo, that is my 2 cents worth.

Let me just say that not everyone out there training for personal protection, or what have you, has access to Chris Fraize. There are several people that I can think of who train dogs in PP and do NOT do it safely or ethically.

For example, a kennel that breeds and trains PP dogs and sells them to the public: They told a woman I was friends with several years ago that in order to convince her dog that she was dominant and alpha, she had to make the dog believe she was stronger than it. And he told her that included occasional beatings into submission when the dog misbehaved.

The dog was a rottweiler, and he was young and I was always PETRIFIED that one day I'd hear that he had enough of her beatings and retaliated against her.

Not friends with her anymore--can't stand people who will beat their dogs because a trainer tells them to--so I have no clue how her "training" with her dog went in the long term.

But my point is, there ARE IDIOTS out there doing this stuff. Trainers and amateur dog owners alike.

And the more that people who don't know what they are doing get involved in this stuff, the more I worry that we will see:

1. Pit bulls bred for protection work being sold to people who are clueless. Or unscrupulous. Or both.

2. People who have no business handling a PP dog buying them from clueless, unscrupulous (or both) trainers or breeders.

3. Even more unstable pit bull dogs (imagine that!) making headlines for a breed that's already halfway down the drain. I mean, not every dog is cut out for protection work, but that doesn't stop people from trying, does it?

I just don't think this is the right time or the right place to make PP work something that is considered a "popular" sport or job for pit bulls. These dogs are hated enough already. And despite the fact that people worried about unstable dobes and scary shepherds in the past, those dogs in my memory were never as hated as pit bulls. In fact, I remember being a kid and finding a protection-trained doberman running loose near my parents' house. The animal control guy (in those days known as a dog catcher) came and picked the dog up and knew the dog as belonging to some local guy who trained them. My mom was calm and collected and we had the dog gated in the downstairs of the house while we waited for the AC guy to come pick him up.

If that happened with a pit bull, my mom would freak the F out to this day. No way she'd want anything to do with a stray pit bull because too many pit bulls are (in her mind and the minds of many others) trained by thugs to be vicious and bite people. She likes pit bulls, too--at least the ones I bring home and she knows to be safe. But she is one of thousands and thousands of people who think that people are trying to create human-aggressive dogs.

I don't see how making PP popular for pit bulls is going to help clear up that perception.

I think I'm done on this for a while. I have to get to work. Plus, I know there is no way I'm changing anyone's mind on this here anyway.

But I guess everyone knows where I stand now, and that's all I gots to say.

haha, sorry Jen. I see that while I was typing/posting you said some of the things for me already. Sorry to be repetitious!

Last edited by babyreba on April 3rd, 2006, 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

dogcrazyjen wrote:OK, I do not think pit bulls should be used for bitework. These are my reasons.

1) Image. The average non-dog sport person ie over 95% of people out there, do not understand bitework and have no interest in understanding it. You cannot convince them, because they do not care to change their opinions. However, they do have an opinion on dogs trained in it, and that is that they are man stoppers. Every average person who sees a pit bull doing bitework is likely a person who has just been reinforced that pit bulls are man stoppers.

This has nothing to do with training or personal talent, or responsibility to good training, or solidness of temperment; it has to do with the average Joe Head-up-his-a$$ and how that voting citizen will view these dogs.

2) This breed has been trained and bred from day one to NEVER bite people. There is just something I dislike about seeing that one extremely positive trait weeded out of bloodlines. It may not happen right away, but you are going to be selecting for dogs who do not see that as a line never to cross. I realize that the bite suit is what they are going after, and that it is the equivilant of a giant tug toy, but I have a hard time believing that there is not some line crossed for the dog. Especially since part of the play acting for the decoys is yelling, and swatting the dog defensively. There is a desensitization process going on there, however subtle.

3)*My main reason!* I think as reba said, the inclination of inexperienced dog owners to try new trends is a real danger. There are people out there who will train their dogs to do bitework without having the solid obedience or checking for temperment.

Now if those dogs are GSDs, or Mals, quite frankly that is not my problem, as I do not own them nor plan on it. I will leave it for those afficinados to handle. However, when those dogs are pits or other bull breeds, it IS my problem. I could lose my dogs. As it is we officially have a lab/boxer cross because our insurance would not cover a pit bull.

Second, the pits (and other bull/terrier breeds) do have a switch in them that they do not stop for pain, or noise, or anything. A pit could do a huge amount of damage to someone, and then to anyone trying to break up the attack if it has no human bite inhibition. I realize any dog could be like this, but bull and terrier breeds are different than working breeds. The combination of traits that makes us love them so is what also can make them so dangerous. We in fact DO love them BECAUSE despite their ability, stubborness, gameness and drive, that they are such lovemonkeys and so solid with people. Add in that these same people will breed dogs for 'temperment', which at that point will mean no bite inhibition.

The average Joe Head- up -his -a$$ will not understand or care that the pit who mauls the local child or old lady was bred by an idiot who has no knowledge nor acceptance into serious breeding programs. Joe Head up his a$$ will only care that it was a pit, and in keeping his missus Judy Head -up -his -a$$ and the little Heads -up -his- a$$ safe from harm.

Before I get lynched, let me say that the last paragraph is talking about inexpirienced people training and breeding, NOT ones like Chris who are obviously very responsible. The problem is that not everyone IS like Chris, and those are the ones who will screw the breed over. Anyhoo, that is my 2 cents worth.

Jen

I agree with all what you said Jenn, and I'd like to add that only a few people would really be able to select a good dog for that purpose. It may make me seem stupid but I equate this with trying to make a hunting dog out of a Shih Tzu. I am by no means an expert with Pits, far from it, but from what I know, a pit bull that shows human aggression should be PTS. I know enough to know also that aggression and PP work or bite work are two different things but still, it seems wrong to encourage a trait in a dog that shouldn't have that trait. Maybe it works with a few of your dogs, but you know the breed and know which ones will be "safe". Who else will have those skills or, like Mr. Boxing gloves, just think they do?