I thought the argument for spending your way out of debt was explained either here or somewhere else like this:

Joe Q Public loses his job, and can't pay taxes. The government doesn't give Joe Q Public welfare, so he can't afford groceries, which means the grocery store goes out of business because they can no longer afford to buy food to resell at a profit. That grocery store supplier is no longer receiving the income from that grocery store, which means that the supplier goes out of business because of a lack of income, and so on and so forth. So by spending money on social programs for Joe Q Public, the government is actually preventing an even bigger loss, and when Joe Q Public transitions back to the workforce and is once again a taxpaying member of society, the government eventually recoups the losses.

And inflation reduces debt because debt is an absolute. You owe Billy $10. Say inflation has raised the minimum wage up from $5/hr to $10/hr, it now only takes you one hour to pay Billy back the loan, as opposed to two hours (this is EXTREMELY simplified, because it's basically my take-away from the entire conversation that I'm not really grasping). However, Billy may be getting his $10 back, but that $10 won't buy nearly as much as it would have before the debt was "inflated away", so he's experienced a net loss in the deal.

Does that sound about right, or am I missing this whole thing entirely?

- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.

Its t he same thing that was in our math textbooks back when I was in 9th grade - an example of why it was better to borrow money in the bank to spend than save up, due to inflation being higher than the interest, so the 100 bucks you borrowed would be less when you payed them back a year later (even though it was still more than 100 bucks due to interest).

The sticky thing about inflation is that China owns vast quantities of US debt - in 2009 it was 63% of the US GDP. Should inflation rise at too high a rate, China may elect to cut their losses and sell off US debt at pennies on the dollar, devaluing the US dollar, causing other countries to dump the US dollar, and sending the US economy into free-fall Zimbabwe-style.

At least then US wages would allow for competitive manufacturing, and the US has enough natural resources that if it re-tooled the economy for manufacturing it could work its way out of the hole, but the country as a whole would probably not survive the exercise. Once the federal currency tanked, richer states would flee the failing Union. The Free State of California would have agricultural and other resources to trade itself into respectability within little time, although it would have to annex Nevada and Arizona in order to meet demands for water and electrical power.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/ ... D020130918With losses calculated at $2.4 billion, Preska said under the guidelines Collins faced life in prison. She instead sentenced him in July to a year in prison, citing his community service and the fact he didn't financially benefit from the scheme.

Koatanga wrote:The sticky thing about inflation is that China owns vast quantities of US debt - in 2009 it was 63% of the US GDP. Should inflation rise at too high a rate, China may elect to cut their losses and sell off US debt at pennies on the dollar, devaluing the US dollar, causing other countries to dump the US dollar, and sending the US economy into free-fall Zimbabwe-style.

At least then US wages would allow for competitive manufacturing, and the US has enough natural resources that if it re-tooled the economy for manufacturing it could work its way out of the hole, but the country as a whole would probably not survive the exercise. Once the federal currency tanked, richer states would flee the failing Union. The Free State of California would have agricultural and other resources to trade itself into respectability within little time, although it would have to annex Nevada and Arizona in order to meet demands for water and electrical power.

The very notion of the world's strongest economy going into free-fall zimbabwe style is EXTREMELY unlikely, without the added point that China's economy is very strongly tied to USA's - Why would China even THINK about crashing it's main export market? It'd crash itself.And China's ownership is 7.5% of USA's public debt, not 63%.

America saying all trade with China is suspended would be a far more critical threat than China selling off all the USA debt it owns, honestly.

I find that guy to be fucktarded. I don't have a clue how it's done, exactly, but the highest "earners" hardly pay any taxes at all. I remember an article I was reading in Forbes (it was at a doctor's office while I was waiting for my appointment) right around the time of the Facebook IPO where it talked about how Zuckerberg managed to pay nothing in taxes by dropping his salary to $1 or something like that.

He is getting hit with an initial huge tax though, for all the shares of Facebook that he "bought" during the IPO. But Facebook also doesn't pay taxes, and in fact took a tax refund to the tune of $429 million:

And these are the people that muppet wants to get CMH awards? Despite the CMH being not available to civilians; the equivalent is the Presidential Medal of Freedom, but that's neither here nor there. I wouldn't even give these assholes a copy of the game Medal of Honor.

- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.

Fivelives wrote:I find that guy to be fucktarded. I don't have a clue how it's done, exactly, but the highest "earners" hardly pay any taxes at all. I remember an article I was reading in Forbes (it was at a doctor's office while I was waiting for my appointment) right around the time of the Facebook IPO where it talked about how Zuckerberg managed to pay nothing in taxes by dropping his salary to $1 or something like that.

He is getting hit with an initial huge tax though, for all the shares of Facebook that he "bought" during the IPO. But Facebook also doesn't pay taxes, and in fact took a tax refund to the tune of $429 million:

And these are the people that muppet wants to get CMH awards? Despite the CMH being not available to civilians; the equivalent is the Presidential Medal of Freedom, but that's neither here nor there. I wouldn't even give these assholes a copy of the game Medal of Honor.

You know, I'd be willing to give a pass to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and the guys from detroit, given that their companies produce goods. But what kind of goods does a Hedge Fund manager produces? All they do is play with other people's moneys and in some cases they have ruined the economy with bad trades and its not their own money they lose, but other people's

Sorry Klaud, as Finance major, I'll have to stop you on that - what these guys are selling in theory is their expertise, their ability to fructify capital. When they do their job right, they are indeed an important part of a functioning society by making capital that would otherwise be "dormant" available to further projects and initiatives. That's what Funds should be about.

Not saying there's no problem with how cavalier they were and stil are, and not saying they don't deserve a serious commeupance for crashing the economy entire, but this has more to do with them being *BAD* managers, and not their profession per se.

Your line of reasoning can also be used against banks as well, and I don't think anyone would consider removing banks from our economies and still keep it above the Medieval Age level.

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Even in a perfect world where no one loses money to bad hedge fund managers, I'd still not give people that make 1 million a year a free pass at taxes, like he wants.... I mean, seriously, the 99% owes the 1%?

That's another can of worms I did not even approach.But that's a problem with big incomes getting stupid tax cuts, not with what kind of job the guy holds.

Actually I'd add another huge problem of the current system is that we're supposed to be in for number one only, while humans typically work in "cliques". Why is that a problem? The wealthy tend to know one another and back up one another, meaning that even when one of them fucks up big-time like, say, screwing the entire economy, they'll probably just ask one of their friends for a little help like getting a boost for a CFO post at some mid-to-big company and lay low until the dust settles, and then get right back to it as their name fall into anonymity again.

But this could also be linked right back to our filial logic that makes undeserving people inherit the money and clout of their family. Tax cuts for the rich is but the very tip of that fucked-up iceberg.

EDIT: I should stop watching let's play of GTA5, I can READ my writing style changing...

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Sagara wrote:That's another can of worms I did not even approach.But that's a problem with big incomes getting stupid tax cuts, not with what kind of job the guy holds.

True, true. The reason I brought that up tho was because he said anyone earning 1M should pay no taxes... my reasoning was that, as unlikely and facepunching inducing that statement is, some people earning 1M a year might be more deserving than others for their services rendered... Hedge Fund Managers obviously not qualifying imo.

Sagara wrote:That's another can of worms I did not even approach.But that's a problem with big incomes getting stupid tax cuts, not with what kind of job the guy holds.

True, true. The reason I brought that up tho was because he said anyone earning 1M should pay no taxes... my reasoning was that, as unlikely and facepunching inducing that statement is, some people earning 1M a year might be more deserving than others for their services rendered... Hedge Fund Managers obviously not qualifying imo.

Dem fightin' words dude, for reasons stated above. You might as well say "Bankers are undeserving bastards". Let's see ITers or Manufacturers build an economy without the bank system to lean on.

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Here’s a modest proposal. Anyone who earns a million dollars or more should be exempt from all income taxes. Yes, it’s too little. And the real issue is not financial, but moral. So to augment the tax-exemption, in an annual public ceremony, the year’s top earner should be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Here’s a modest proposal. Anyone who earns a million dollars or more should be exempt from all income taxes. Yes, it’s too little. And the real issue is not financial, but moral. So to augment the tax-exemption, in an annual public ceremony, the year’s top earner should be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Here’s a modest proposal. Anyone who earns a million dollars or more should be exempt from all income taxes. Yes, it’s too little. And the real issue is not financial, but moral. So to augment the tax-exemption, in an annual public ceremony, the year’s top earner should be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

I think he's trolling.

It took me a minute, but then I was like "holy shit that's brilliant".

The problem, I think, is that so many people out there are so willfully ignorant that satire can't be distinguished from actual belief. Which, granted, makes it good satire, but nonetheless I think right now would be the time for BAD satire. The waters are muddy enough as it stands what with extremist views cropping up on just about damn near everything, and the internet making it easier and easier for those extremists to gather a not insignificant number of followers.

- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.

My last job paid about 4 times the salary I'm getting now (between hazard pay, flex pay, on-call pay, etc, along with years of experience and merit raises), so financially speaking I'm running a hell of a lot closer to the wire than I'd like. I've trimmed my budget pretty close to the bone already thanks to that, and rediscovered the joys of a Top Ramen based diet - along with cafeteria food from work (which if you've ever been to a hospital cafeteria, you know is pretty close to disgusting).

So I've been relying a lot on the additional income from my veteran's pension. I know the VA has been defunded as part of the government shutdown (except for healthcare, that was already approved and won't be an issue), but I can't find anywhere that's saying whether or not the VA will still be able to pay out comp&pen pay. It's kind of important that I know in advance. By "close to the bone" I'm talking "that veteran's pay is the difference between having a roof over my head and, well... not". The closest that I've been able to find is that they're still going to be accepting applications from veterans, but nothing I've found says whether or not those applications will be processed, let alone payments. The whole VA system is about 90% red tape and 10% elmer's paste (and people who EAT elmer's paste).

- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.

My last job paid about 4 times the salary I'm getting now (between hazard pay, flex pay, on-call pay, etc, along with years of experience and merit raises), so financially speaking I'm running a hell of a lot closer to the wire than I'd like. I've trimmed my budget pretty close to the bone already thanks to that, and rediscovered the joys of a Top Ramen based diet - along with cafeteria food from work (which if you've ever been to a hospital cafeteria, you know is pretty close to disgusting).

So I've been relying a lot on the additional income from my veteran's pension. I know the VA has been defunded as part of the government shutdown (except for healthcare, that was already approved and won't be an issue), but I can't find anywhere that's saying whether or not the VA will still be able to pay out comp&pen pay. It's kind of important that I know in advance. By "close to the bone" I'm talking "that veteran's pay is the difference between having a roof over my head and, well... not". The closest that I've been able to find is that they're still going to be accepting applications from veterans, but nothing I've found says whether or not those applications will be processed, let alone payments. The whole VA system is about 90% red tape and 10% elmer's paste (and people who EAT elmer's paste).

AS it stands right now, according to the CNN Article (I believe it was titled Stalemate), no one is sure, and there is a high probability if this goes on long enough (say the end of October), that you wont have it.

Now, I know we have some conservatives here, and as long as you aren't attending the Tea Party and Drinking their Kool Aid, I have no problem with you. But seriously Republicans? Stop fighting a battle that you've already lost, and get on board with getting things moving. I put the blame solely on the Tea Party, and the GOP House Leadership, including whipped boehnerhead, who happens to be from Ohio.

This is just about the most ridiculous thing. "Hey! Let's not approve ANYTHING, unless we can try and win a legislative battle that we lost 2-3 FUCKING YEARS AGO"

My last job paid about 4 times the salary I'm getting now (between hazard pay, flex pay, on-call pay, etc, along with years of experience and merit raises), so financially speaking I'm running a hell of a lot closer to the wire than I'd like. I've trimmed my budget pretty close to the bone already thanks to that, and rediscovered the joys of a Top Ramen based diet - along with cafeteria food from work (which if you've ever been to a hospital cafeteria, you know is pretty close to disgusting).

So I've been relying a lot on the additional income from my veteran's pension. I know the VA has been defunded as part of the government shutdown (except for healthcare, that was already approved and won't be an issue), but I can't find anywhere that's saying whether or not the VA will still be able to pay out comp&pen pay. It's kind of important that I know in advance. By "close to the bone" I'm talking "that veteran's pay is the difference between having a roof over my head and, well... not". The closest that I've been able to find is that they're still going to be accepting applications from veterans, but nothing I've found says whether or not those applications will be processed, let alone payments. The whole VA system is about 90% red tape and 10% elmer's paste (and people who EAT elmer's paste).

Be pro-active. Go to the people you need to pay and let them know that you do rely on veteran's benefits to make ends meet, and that in the event of suspended payments, they will be paid in full when those payments do come through. Most creditors will be understanding of your situation. If not, you can always name-and-shame them through the press. With all the nationalism happening in the US, it's a bad time to mess with vets.