Messages - joshie

to those who want me to get them coffee: You are witty people, and its a wonder that other people you know dont realize this and congratulate you for it more often. You laughed to yourself as you posted it beca8use it was so funny. thats a nice feeling.

i write on this board at work... dont you people have friends you can hang out with instead of typing stupid shite on an internet board all alone in your apartment? rub one out and make yourself feel a little better.

Here's the thing, whether it meant to come off this way or not, law students hate to hear claims by someone who hasn't attended law school that they can do something better than a law student. Personally I can't help getting a little offended. The reason is, if you haven't gone through your first year of law school you simply really don't know what you're talking about and and it's insulting and disresepctful for a any law student to listen to someone who hasn't gone through the rigors talk that way. Plus, you said yourself that you've only been a law clerk for a year...that's not very long. But then again it really doesn't take very long to learn about res ipsa either.

well, I agree that I shouldn't be saying *&^% about law school, because obviously I don't know anything about law school. But I haven't really said anything about law school, except that I feel that it is possible to prepare before you go. I then gave my personal experience as anecdotal evidence.

This was obviously very hard for many current students to take, and I apologize. But the fact is, for the last few years I have been doing the job of a first year associate as a pre-law student at a small boutique firm that has been in the national news. It is possible. What is impossible is not performing such a job without a law degree, but getting the job in the first place. My job (and some of the jobs you will have when you immediately graduate) involves a lot of common sense combined with westlaw searching saavy.

I was not trying to imply that I am going to be a wizard at law school, and that it's all going to be second nature for me. I actually think that I am going to suck in school because my memory is terrible and I don't think I'm going to be able to retain what I need. With that said, I think my pre-law experience has been invaluable, and that it will put me at an advantage, and I encourage all future students to do what I did before going to school. Maybe it won't help, but it sure as hell wont hurt.

The average lawyer (not partner, lawyer) made 1.1 million after bonuses last year. Of course, there are only 8 in my office, but...

see "GW2L", I shouldnt even have to tell you things like that. you are going to be a "lawyer", and "lawyers" don't make assumptions. You make assumptions, and eventually, you are going to make an assumption that will have greater consequences than losing some pointless argument on an internet message board.

"At my firm, secretaries start at 35 and paralegals start at 55. First year associates start at 120+ and bonuses throughout the year. "

good for you. My bosses secretary (she's also the office manager) makes 90k, and we started a first year associate last year at 85k. Why did you even mention starting salaries for secretaries?

"2) Secretaries do make coffee and answer phones. Paralegals do all the real work."

The secretary/paralegal distinction you talk about depends on where you work - we have a "paralegal" at our office, but the only thing she does is do med mal intakes (shes a nurse). The "secretaries" do the other "paralegal" work. We also have a "receptionist" who answers the phones and gets the coffee.

"3) Where do you get off trying to act like you have some great knowledge of the legal profession? When you are a partner at a law firm, I will listen. Until then, shouldn't you be getting us some coffee?"

Tell you what- get your first job, see what its like, and then get back to me if im wrong about how important your support staff is going to be for you.

My bosses secretary gets paid more than our first year associate. If you worked for us, the secretary who you think is below you would be banking more than you. something to think about.

I don't take criticism from a secretary. Do your job by getting me a coffee and answering my phones.

be careful here dog. i am assuming you are a first year, which means you probably havent seen the inside of a law office yet. Secretaries are often the only reason why the lawyers stay sane - they do everything except make the decisions. If you think that secretaries just get coffee and answer phones, wait till one of them messes up a dictation and your ass is on the line for it - or wait until she happens to remind you of a soon-closing statute of limitations that you forgot about. You will learn to love, respect, and defer to your secretary when she (he?) knows more about your practice than you do - and as you grow more dependent on her, she will.

Also, your argument that you know res judicata better than law students is meritless. I'm not claiming that you don't know it. It's fabulous that you know how it works in PA. However, that won't help you when you're taking the multi-state portion of your bar. Law school teaches you the principles so that you could sit for the bar of any state and then practice there.

you are right, i never thought of that.

Also, who goes to court these days? Even litigators don't go to court.

Well, litigators have to appear in front of a judge everytime there is a contested motion (at least from what ive seen). the partners at my firm have 85 years combined experience, and none of them have ever tried a case in front of a jury... yet they appear in front of one judge (or a special master) at least once a week.

Anyway, just enjoy the original post for the humor. I'm sure you'll be fine.

my fault. I did think it was funny, but i just have a feeling that the poster is a real jerkoff in person.

or5, like sometimes a partner will say "hey, go down to (x) firm and talk to john doe, i graduated from law school with him so just tell him who you work for, and ask him how he argued a motion to dismiss expert testimony in front of Judge Wapner. I don't have time to talk to him myself because I am buying a new 7 iron on Ebay and im getting outbid."

so, I'm thinking, what do you mean? there are statutes and case law in PA about the elements necessary to dismiss expert testimony. All we have to do is follow the black-letter law and there is no way Judge Wapner will go against us, right??

after an hour long discussion with this guy about Judge Wapner's feelings on such motions and how to present them in the best possible light, i realize that...

there is no way that law school teaches how to get on Judge Wapner's good side. Wapner sees things differently than judge judy. Yet, that is the kind of skill needed to win cases. hmmm. is there a class on schmoozing at your law school???

(side note- i am going to pitt next year, and they have a class on firm management- part of the class, apparently, is picking out office furniture given a limited budget. you cant make this stuff up.)

So dude, even if you know a concept as well as you think you do, it doesnt mean that you know how to use it in court. graduating law school will be the end of the beginning for learning how to actually practice law.

[As for Res Judicata, any student who has taken Civpro knows the doctrine quite well. I highly doubt that you know more about Res Judicata than a law student who has just completed Civpro.

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hehe, you'd be suprised. See, in school your teacher tells you what cases to read - I have to figure out which ones to analyze on my own. This means I ahve to skim a lot of cases before I get to the one that applies to our specific situation. And i do digest this extra, useless (for my specific purpose) information.

Do you know how it applies in the jurisdiction you will be practicing in? I do.

But by now you should also have real-life research experience outside of school, so you know what im talking about.

I am getting defensive. What I am trying to point out that it is really funny to me that those in law school who have little or no real-life experience in actually practicing the law make themselves sound like seasoned veterans. I work with an associate who graduated from a top 30 school, and my boss always thinks it is funny to point out to me all the things that I understand (through work i have done) that this guy is clueless about, even though he just graduated. A lot of the law can be figured out using common sense and westlaw, with or without a law degree.

From the perspective of many lawyers I have met with 20+ years of experience in winning cases, law school is not about learning the "details" of res judiciata or any other concept, because when it comes down to specific examples you are still going to have to figure out how it applies in your exact situation. Perhaps it will take you guys 20+ years as well to arrive at the same conclusion.