I find it alarming that threads are being locked relating especially to gender issues. Can we not have these in the hot topics section and keep them open? I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.

I feel the 'tone' of Dhammawheel lately has become very unfriendly / unsafe especially for females. Lots of 'tone' / 'behavioral' policing of female members etc. Really sad to see Dhammawheel coming to this. Can we discuss please?

Metta
Dhammafriend

Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varamFor me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasaneBy the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

dhammafriend wrote: I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.

Could turn into a moderation nightmare? They do turn into a moderation nightmare, without fail.

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

dhammafriend wrote: I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.

Could turn into a moderation nightmare? They do turn into a moderation nightmare, without fail.

What about issues like Isreal / Palestine etc? Those are allowed to continue and I've seen some confrontational comments on threads like that. We'll never change the climate for women here if we shut down the discussions that affect them. Abortion in Buddhist view, sexual harassment, rape etc. And yes, we've had discussions specific to men, remember those masturbation threads?

I suggest moving it to hot topics with the proviso that people understand that right speech might be breached (within reason) and they should be prepared for that.

Metta
Dhammafriend

Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varamFor me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasaneBy the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

Just delete the posts that violate the TOS instead of locking the thread. Most users manage to post without being racist, sexist, or otherwise disruptive. If some members repeatedly violate the TOS, then apply sanctions such as withdrawing posting rights for a day or two.

dhammafriend wrote: I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.

Could turn into a moderation nightmare? They do turn into a moderation nightmare, without fail.

What about issues like Isreal / Palestine etc? Those are allowed to continue and I've seen some confrontational comments on threads like that.

If it were up to me the Isreali/Palestinian business would be totally banned from discussions here, given the unwholsome heat it generates.

We'll never change the climate for women here if we shut down the discussions that affect them.

I have not seen in those discussions reasonable exchanges. I see a lot of male digging in of heals.

And yes, we've had discussions specific to men, remember those masturbation threads?

Women do not self pleasure? Sex is another topic that generates a lot of heat and little actual understanding.

I suggest moving it to hot topics with the proviso that people understand that right speech might be breached (within reason) and they should be prepared for that.

We could try such discussions in the moderated "Open Dhamma Hot Topics" if that is what you mean. That would not be a bad idea -- maybe.

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

If the objective of post is not clearly related to Dhamma the person who post the OP should clearly demonstrate the objective of the final out come of the post.
What is the objective of the OP in regard to Isreali/Palestinian business ?

One of my posts "Handling of money by monks" was deleted.
I am sure moderators must have frustrated with the similar thread "Broken Buddha'
But my objective was:
a)If I become a monk should I handle the money?
b)If I handle the money as a monk how I justify it to a lay person?
c)If monks break the precept what is the use of having a precept?

We could try such discussions in the moderated "Open Dhamma Hot Topics" if that is what you mean. That would not be a bad idea -- maybe.

Thank you. Please think about it. If there are any female forum members who have any suggestions, ideas would be welcome.

Metta
Dhammfriend

Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varamFor me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasaneBy the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

In my experience some of these "hot" threads degenerate to an endless exchange of fixed views and positions - and yes I know I'm playing or have played this game too. For two days now or so I contemplated: it might be best to post just once, explain my position or view or ideas to a certain topic and then leave it like that. Why do I, why do we need to repeat ourselves all the time? Is it about winning in a discussion?

In a way a "Buddhist Discussion Forum" is a weired thing in itself. I guess we all know that views are impermanent, unsatisfactory and therefore not self. And still myself and others bang each others heads against virtual walls. It is sad, but it's just the way it is. It's a crazy world, we are all more or less crazy.

I have mixed feelings about threads being closed: In a way it is relaxing since a moderator figured that the outcome won't be particularly helpful or wholesome or the thread is not developing anymore to some sort of consensus or at least mutual respect. So everybody then can relax and contemplate: what was my role here or there for the decline of this thread? Sometimes I go over my own posts and quite often I think: wow, I really wrote that? Am I such a deluded cynical and confrontative person? So a "Buddhist Discussion Forum" is helpful in this way - a trainining ground for "Right Communication" since "Right Speech" nowadays is quite often written. I have a lot of respect for all the users I have discussed with. I might sound often as being "sure" about my position that I'm defending, but in reality I'm not. I'm working of old Khamma and seeing my discussion patterns and manerisms is helpful to hopefully develop to something more open, more spacious and more kind.

So if a thread has been shut down it is sad since it shows where are the "frontlines" here. Most often Gender, Race, Politics and such. Closed threads are symptoms to see where this community that is dedicated to compassion, loving kindness, generosity and all those different buddhist values is still lacking sometimes "perfect" communication skills. But I don't worry, it's a crazy world, a super-crazy internet, we are "living in". I suppose we are all trying our best here and within this assumption I find peace and understanding. This forum can't be perfect and it will never be. Myself and most users here won't be perfect in this lifetime either.

I'm fine with threads being closed or if they are left open, it doesn't matter to me much. But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.

Sometimes it is the best to practice "letting go" of threads as I suggested in the beginning of this post. If in doubt relax and stop contributing when you realize the heat is boiling up, the thicket of views is growing. Step back a bit and contemplate if you view a certain thread or topic after a few days in the same way. This gives an opportunity of coming out of a possible rut of endless fighting.

Slightly off topic:
I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future. We are all in this boat together of suffering and death, it doesn't matter what gender we are, we shouldn't be this gender blocking of this gender, or this group of people talking about the "others". It'd be best if we talk together then just "about" each other.

And please all accept my apology for being sometimes very stubborn. Be sure I'm working on it but quite often I slip.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

Sokehi wrote:But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.

Not to let us users off the hook, but some topics are virtually guaranteed to get ugly. Like the Israel/Palestine thing. I haven't seen one of those threads stay cool. Maybe that kind of discussion should banned, I dunno.

I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future.

How are they supposed to feel comfortable when threads are locked because men are getting defensive?

...it doesn't matter what gender we are...

That attitude is exactly what allows all the BS that women, gays etc have to face. You are denying the validity of someone's experience.
You can teach a starving person anatta, 4noble truths etc, but they will still drop dead from hunger. When you acknowledge that they are starving, you can then feed them and teach the 4noble truths etc.

Metta
Dhammafriend

Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varamFor me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasaneBy the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future.

How are they supposed to feel comfortable when threads are locked because men are getting defensive?

...it doesn't matter what gender we are...

That attitude is exactly what allows all the BS that women, gays etc have to face. You are denying the validity of someone's experience.
You can teach a starving person anatta, 4noble truths etc, but they will still drop dead from hunger. When you acknowledge that they are starving, you can then feed them and teach the 4noble truths etc.

Metta
Dhammafriend

You might misunderstand me here - I guess badly. I don't want to turn this thread around into discussion gender issues or whatever, this thread I guess is not about discussions that have been raised in numerous other topics. At least I did understand the OP that way.

Most who know me here know that I strongly oppose inequality, revisionism, fascism, racism and in particular have received for my pro-bhikkuni approach quite some heat. So again, I guess you misunderstand me here totally.

And "BS" is not very much right speech btw.

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

Sokehi wrote:But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.

Not to let us users off the hook, but some topics are virtually guaranteed to get ugly. Like the Israel/Palestine thing. I haven't seen one of those threads stay cool. Maybe that kind of discussion should banned, I dunno.

Gender issues aren't quite as contentious as all that.

I agree ... and probably that would be a good idea but could give raise to "censorship" arguments. Still buddhism is not about having taboos or taboo topics. (New) users could misunderstand the intention of preventing these discussions

Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

To talk for myself alone - for me there is no problem if both sides get censored or both allowed - the problem is when the censorship is leaning towards one side : one side gets censored faster one side gets a post removed while another gets the whole thread removed ect

Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

dhammafriend wrote:I find it alarming that threads are being locked relating especially to gender issues. Can we not have these in the hot topics section and keep them open? I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.

I feel the 'tone' of Dhammawheel lately has become very unfriendly / unsafe especially for females. Lots of 'tone' / 'behavioral' policing of female members etc. Really sad to see Dhammawheel coming to this. Can we discuss please?

Metta
Dhammafriend

Dear Dhammafriend

I share your perception that some Dhamma Wheel members act as if this would be a forum for White Male Buddhists only. Did you try to "foe" the worst perpetrators? It makes life on Dhamma Wheel more interesting (because they contribute less than nothing) and more pleasant.

Women / GLBT / colored people / Asians... I agree with you. I think the best what we can do is to report abusive posts and "foe" the above WMBs.

I have been on the receiving end of getting a thread closed because I dared to ask unpopular questions about monks and money. It doesn't feel good.

Most what you feel I see contained in the "nuns" discussion. Hair-splitting arguments, male chauvinism, lack of empathy...

I believe "we" (women/LBGT/coloreds) gain more respect if we introduce our arguments in clearly Buddhist topics rather than starting women/LBGT/coloreds issues threads, because either there will be no discussion because we all agree or there will be a group of grumpy old men who keep the discussion going enjoying to get on people's nerves. (You can't seriously "discuss" nuns' right to ordain.)

I understand how you feel. The abusive posts can disturb our calm. Never try to reason with fools! There are more than 7 billion people on Earth, they can't all be sweet, intelligent, considerate...

A lot of the topics about women rights turn bitter because most men, here or anywhere else, resent women. The same is true with women towards men. In any other forum it's an even bigger burning topic. I've been guilty of flame throwing here before. Now I just prefer not to say anything because I know I will say things coming out of resentment, instead of something constructive.

I agree with the suggestion that these are to dealt with in the "Hot Topics" section. This way, people will self-moderate even more, under the risk of not seeing their message published in the thread. That way, the resentment can be directed towards a constructive and "dhammic" goal.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Sokehi wrote:But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.

Not to let us users off the hook, but some topics are virtually guaranteed to get ugly. Like the Israel/Palestine thing. I haven't seen one of those threads stay cool. Maybe that kind of discussion should banned, I dunno.

Gender issues aren't quite as contentious as all that.

Israel vs Palestine is not of much relevance to this foreum, but I'm still reluctant to say that it should be "outlawed". If anything it provides us moments where we learn from our own wrong speech and its effects on us and others.

Gender discussions are of relevance, in my opinion. Personaly, I find discussion of gender very important. But since this is a topic that can be derrailed by a single post, it can only be discussed smoothly in the Hot Topics section.

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Modus.Ponens wrote:A lot of the topics about women rights turn bitter because most men, here or anywhere else, resent women. The same is true with women towards men.

Wow, really? I only find there's a problem when an individual takes it upon themselves to tar half the human population with a very broad brush.

Still, if it is true, this being a "Buddhist discussion forum", I would have thought that cultivating wholesome states (e.g. kindness, compassion), and reducing unwholesome states (e.g. aversion, fear) would be an apt mode of discussion, no matter what the topic. I also believe that if that's what happened, there would be no need for moderators to delete posts, let alone lock these topics.