"When I read the piece before I saw her, I was expecting a glossy-and-pouty lipped, bronzed and perfectly coiffed Adriana Lima-lookalike- I really was. (...) the greatest irony is that the woman who wrote it is very, very painfully average. And I am being incredibly charitable there."

i'd say that about sums it up...

Originally Posted by rouquinne

You know, I'm kind of tired of the articles using various celebrities and supermodels as reference points. People keep saying she's not "really" beautiful because she doesn't look like Adriana Lima.... or Angelina Jolie... I think she herself said she's "no Elle MacPherson." I don't like the implication that if she ACTUALLY looked like one of those women, she might have a point (I think one of the articles I posted says something along those lines.) Basically, what they're saying is, this woman isn't beautiful, but Angelina Jolie and Adriana Lima ARE (even though most of the time we see them, they are styled/airbrushed/what have you - and that looking a certain way is their full-time job) so if you don't look like them, as few women in the real world do, you're not really beautiful. They're knocking all women down a peg just to put this one woman with issues in her place. We have to stop making comparisons when it comes to female beauty and just accept women as they are.

Originally Posted by Amneris

lol...she's really dating herself here. Elle MacPherson was big in the 80s. Even Elle MacPherson is no Elle MacPherson anymore.

Originally Posted by The New Black

I thought the same thing - why'd she pick Elle MacPherson and not Heidi Klum or Giselle or somebody?

Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali

This woman's ridiculous, but I had experienced girls turning on me because of looks. I was close with three friends in college and after. I hate to say it like this, but physically, all three were very unattractive...one really looked like a man. None of them put any effort into their appearances (just giving details, women can do whatever they want.)

One of them was over 300 lbs. I remember consoling her once when she was frustrated about where she was in life and I told her I understood because all of us were feeling confused post-college. She said,"But YOU'RE skinny and pretty."

She also told mutual friends that she loved me, but was so jealous of me she couldn't stand it.

At the time, I had no job, no boyfriend, no success in writing yet...but I was skinny and pretty, so I obviously had the world!

I ended-up having a falling-out with one of the others over a project we were working on together. The other two had nothing to do with it but took her side.

All three of them were really nasty, unpleasant people that used "I'm so clever and sarcastic!" as an excuse to be mean. Nobody understand why I was friends with them.

I DO think part of what broke-up the friendships was the fact that they didn't want a pretty, pleasant girl in their clique anymore.

I have a theory. I think there's real-life pretty and celebrity pretty, and celebrities who are considered average-to-girl-next-door types would probably make you walk into a wall if you saw them in real life. And many girls that are girl-next-door, real-life pretty get the most attention in real life because they are attractive, but approachable. This woman probably gets attention because she's tall and blonde (so people get the "model" suggestion), but she has an average but pleasant-ish face, and guys respond to the accessibility. Those who are model or celebrity pretty rarely get hit on because men think they don't stand a chance.

I agree there's IRL pretty and celebrity pretty. And I would agree some celebs might make me walk into a wall if I saw them IRL. But I don't think most of them look IRL like they do on TV, in mags, etc. P'Shop, various retouching techniques, the right angle/lighting can work miracles.

I would guess she is very flirty. I have friends who are about the same attractiveness and get huge amounts of male attention for that reason. I avoid being around men with them because they're the types to throw a tantrum if someone else gets attention. I figure their insecurity is not my problem and manage circumstances since I like them otherwise but they don't have many female friends.

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Originally Posted by NetG

Yeah, that sounds like my cousin...she has lots of female friends but she needs to be the center of attention at all times.

She wants the male attention on her, needs to be the hottest girl in the room in every situation, and is a conceited person in general.

Don't let another woman be prettier or thinner or have nicer boobs or wear sexier clothes! The world will end.

Sometimes it can be a real pain in the ass to be around her because of that.

I would say, even though I call people ugly all day long, only if I know of their personality (unless it's beyonce and rhianna they're just ug cause they're annoying as hell) to me, I think she's pretty because I can see where the pretty is, I wouldn't date her, but I don't find women attractive so.... but lots of guys go crazy over some "average and beastly" looking women. Who knows why? It's a mystery. Of course women are gonna hate, saying she's not pretty, because we're women, that's what we do, hate on other women. Isn't there like some proof that men, look at certain parts of women and women look at the whole picture, or reverse, whatever, so maybe they just see the good stuff, or what they want. Maybe she radiates confidence so that her so called ugly looks are overshadowed, and that's why they like her. Maybe she has game, and her friends don't. I don't know.

Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive, but I find it insulting that everyone here is straight up saying she's average, and if you're average, that means you're not pretty, which means you're ugly. Cause I mean what's the point of being in-between? People don't throw up when they look at you? Might as well be ugly if ya ain't pretty.

*steps off of sensitive box*

Originally Posted by murrrcat

I'm with you, turtles...I agree with all this except that I believe a person can be "average" and STILL be pretty.

I think there can be different levels of attractiveness. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But I don't think that being "average" means you're not pretty. I've seen lots of women who can be considered average but they were still very pretty...it's just that they were pretty in a "girl next door" way. They had the type of beauty that could be found anywhere, while somebody with exceptionally gorgeous or unique looks is a bit more rare.

I don't care for the looks of most models and actresses today, with a few exceptions. I prefer the wholesome beauty of average women with smooth clear skin, nice hair, pretty smiles, and simple clothes that flatter their figures.

Being average isn't necessarily bad. But I do believe that society makes women feel that if you don't look a certain way, you're automatically plain or ugly or inferior, especially compared to women who fit the standard (and this varies from culture to culture).

It seems like guys are allowed to be average more than women.

I would say that this lady who wrote the article is "average". She is pretty in a cookie-cutter sense...tall, blonde, white, and relatively slim. This is what some Americans would consider the "girl next door". I don't know how it is in the UK, though.

She is pretty to me, but she doesn't possess anything physical that makes her stand out. I see women like her all the time. She reminds me of my husband's best friend's wife. They could be twins.

"When I read the piece before I saw her, I was expecting a glossy-and-pouty lipped, bronzed and perfectly coiffed Adriana Lima-lookalike- I really was. (...) the greatest irony is that the woman who wrote it is very, very painfully average. And I am being incredibly charitable there."

i'd say that about sums it up...

Originally Posted by rouquinne

You know, I'm kind of tired of the articles using various celebrities and supermodels as reference points. People keep saying she's not "really" beautiful because she doesn't look like Adriana Lima.... or Angelina Jolie... I think she herself said she's "no Elle MacPherson." I don't like the implication that if she ACTUALLY looked like one of those women, she might have a point (I think one of the articles I posted says something along those lines.) Basically, what they're saying is, this woman isn't beautiful, but Angelina Jolie and Adriana Lima ARE (even though most of the time we see them, they are styled/airbrushed/what have you - and that looking a certain way is their full-time job) so if you don't look like them, as few women in the real world do, you're not really beautiful. They're knocking all women down a peg just to put this one woman with issues in her place. We have to stop making comparisons when it comes to female beauty and just accept women as they are.

I get the impression that some women are kind of gleeful that she doesn't look like an airbrushed supermodel and just looks regular, because it makes them feel better. One's self-esteem shouldn't depend on others.

eta: I also hate the assumption that OBVIOUSLY we all think Angelina Jolie / Adriana Lima / fill in the blank is soooo beautiful... because we all have the same subjective beauty standard, and if we don't accept HER as the ideal to aspire to (and fail miserably), we must be a jealous hater. I have personally never found Angelina Jolie any more beautiful than many other women, famous or non, and don't get the hype over her - she's not any beauty standard for me. I wish the media would stop trying to convince me otherwise.

Originally Posted by Amneris

I love this comment! The way I see it is this...we can't all be models, but every woman has something beautiful or sexy about her.

Whether it is one woman's curves, or another woman's curly hair, or another woman's whatever...we all have something special. I'm a heterosexual married woman and I am constantly taking mental notes of other women around me. There is just so much beauty.

Women are just freaking terrific! But it would be more terrific if we could all be more supportive and kinder to one another.

And while I do think that Angelina and Adriana are beautiful, I don't aspire to be like them. I love Adriana's green eyes (they look almost teal sometimes) but I don't want to look like her. The same with Angelina. She is definitely sexy, but there are other women who can match her in that department as well. I'm not sure why certain people are deemed the most attractive in comparison to others, because there will always be somebody prettier or sexier.

People are being very harsh on this Samantha Brick person, which is partly her own fault for making pompous statements, but it is kind of sad too. I don't think a woman needs to look like a model in order to feel beautiful or be confident. If every woman could boldly declare that she is beautiful (no matter how much we weigh or what we look like) without fear of judgment, we would probably have less females with low self-esteem and that would probably cut down on some of the cattiness too.

never in a million years would i dare to call myself pretty - average is fine because it's what i am.

I apologize if it seems like I'm trying to single you out, but this caught my attention.

Why would you not dare to call yourself pretty? Is it because your features aren't perfectly symmetrical? Or is it because most women are taught to be self-deprecating so we don't seem overly confident about the way we look? We're often told to be modest and not say anything positive about ourselves because it seems like bragging. But I wish that we ALL could think of ourselves as pretty, no matter what we look like.

Please don't be offended...this just really stood out to me.

It also reminds me of a quote by Marilyn Monroe: "No one ever told me I was pretty when I was a little girl. All little girls should be told they're pretty, even if they aren't".

I agree with her. I know that some hardcore feminists might say that women should aspire to be more than pretty, that it's all tools of the patriarchy to keep us down, etc...but we can't deny that people are judged heavily by appearances.

I think every woman should feel beautiful and comfortable in her own skin, whether she looks like a model or not.

Us "average" women can still be pretty, so don't ever think that you're not!

not a problem.... but, to be perfectly honest, i'm not even average being fat and middle aged with a big nose, bad teeth and a weak chin. the only thing that sets me apart from other people is the red hair. that's not being self-deprecating, it happens to be the truth.

not a problem.... but, to be perfectly honest, i'm not even average being fat and middle aged with a big nose, bad teeth and a weak chin. the only thing that sets me apart from other people is the red hair. that's not being self-deprecating, it happens to be the truth.

Originally Posted by rouquinne

I hear you...but I still bet you're way more attractive than you think!

This woman is claiming to conventionally beautiful by UK standards or whatever. I think Angelina Jolie looks very unnatural and odd, but it's clear that she's considered a conventional beauty.

Originally Posted by Eilonwy

Is she ? I didn't think she was considered a "conventional" beauty.. because to me she has "different" sort of look.. hard to describe...she looks evil almost to me and I think she's stunning. To me her features are a tad too..I don't know what you said.. "odd" to be considered conventional. I never thought about her looking "unnatural" but yep..now that you posted that..it's exactly what it is.. she looks like a vampire or witch or something. I love it.

I have a theory. I think there's real-life pretty and celebrity pretty, and celebrities who are considered average-to-girl-next-door types would probably make you walk into a wall if you saw them in real life. And many girls that are girl-next-door, real-life pretty get the most attention in real life because they are attractive, but approachable. This woman probably gets attention because she's tall and blonde (so people get the "model" suggestion), but she has an average but pleasant-ish face, and guys respond to the accessibility. Those who are model or celebrity pretty rarely get hit on because men think they don't stand a chance.

This woman has just interpreted her experiences incorrectly.

Originally Posted by wavyblonde

Eh, I pretty much feel as Amneris.
I don't think celebrities are any more beautiful than anyone else. They're just in a position to make the best of what they've got.
I feel if you saw most celebs in real life, you'd hardly give them a second look. Even the ones that would be especially beautiful would be just normal people. There are beautiful people everywhere. They just don't have the glamour and celebrity attached to them — the media telling you to look at them because they're so beautiful.

When I see a gorgeous man I can't help but have a few glances, because I just don't see that many men who make me want to look. I see a lot more beautiful women than I do men.

Eh, I pretty much feel as Amneris.
I don't think celebrities are any more beautiful than anyone else. They're just in a position to make the best of what they've got.
I feel if you saw most celebs in real life, you'd hardly give them a second look. Even the ones that would be especially beautiful would be just normal people. There are beautiful people everywhere. They just don't have the glamour and celebrity attached to them — the media telling you to look at them because they're so beautiful.

When I see a gorgeous man I can't help but have a few glances, because I just don't see that many men who make me want to look. I see a lot more beautiful women than I do men.

Originally Posted by Saria

I agree, too. Perhaps that's partially formed by having lived with a current celebrity when we were roommates in college. Living with her, she was pretty, yes, but normal-pretty. Living as an actress, it's part of her job to glam up. I tend to think *most* women who are seen as extremely beautiful are "normal-pretty" but we notice them for their presentation. I think there are beautiful women everywhere, and it's either a difference in presentation or self-carriage which garners attention even more than actual looks. I would consider average to actually be quite beautiful, but a beauty we don't necessarily notice.

The pews never miss a sermon but that doesn't get them one step closer to Heaven.
-Speckla