Now...these the multi-quoting TDKR debates...rising from where we tried to bury them...

You're right actually. This feels like old road with you, too. Not that that's a bad thing. Just somewhat redundant.

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I blame milost, lol.

Lol true, but I like his style, so that's a compliment to us both.

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Yes, I agree the parallel is absolutely there with Talia as well, but it doesn't negate the emotional complexity of Bane being being the outcast of that "family", but remaining loyal to Talia and serving her father's ideals. I don't think that makes him weak, I think that's precisely what makes him interesting. Anyway, I think it's best to view Bane/Talia almost as a single entity for the purposes of exploring the thematic elements of TDKR.

But it's not an emotional complexity. It's a straight forward case of doing it for someone he loves. Where is the complexity? Just like how he put his life on the line to protect her in the pit when he had nothing to gain from that other than he loved her. He was doing it for her. Just like he was doing it for her again 9 years later in Gotham.

How that is a more complex or interesting version of Bane than the comics is beyond me. It's a watered down version who is robbed of nearly everything that makes him a great villain. Not a self made man, never discovered Batman's identity himself, never escaped the hell hole prison he grew up in himself etc.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardy's Bane, but for me it's easily a weaker version of the comics. The look of the character is leaps and bounds above the comics Bane though.

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I don't care about what they had done prior to coming to Gotham/New York, I'm just talking about the general idea behind the characters. Both Bane and Kraven want to be the "champion" and take down the hero for the sport of it, without having any existing personal vendetta with the hero.

It's not semantics, it's apples and oranges. Kraven had already got a reputation as the greatest hunter. He was famous for it. Who was Bane prior to coming to Gotham? A nobody who spent his life rotting in a prison for his father's crimes.

Bane was out to prove he was more than that. Kraven was just out to prove he was the best at what he already does. The only similarity is they both wanted to beat the hero.

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My point is if he was exiled from the LOS prior to Batman Begins, that means he had to have spent the past 9 or so years doing something. The guy has to eat, and his skill-set is pretty limited to various acts of violence, lol. They don't call him a mercenary for nothin'.

They called him a mercenary because of the aforementioned antics Alfred mentioned. You might as well ask what was Talia doing for the last 9 years, too.

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True. I'll give you that, he probably tried and failed- like everyone else who used the rope. But Bruce had his failed attempts to. I'm just saying, after he was attacked (and saw that it might be more possible to escape without using the rope) I think he was too messed up to ever be able to try again.

Again that's conjecture. You could say that of any one of the prisoners in that pit. The point is Bane didn't escape the pit. Nobody did except Bruce and Talia. Bane never demonstrated he was any kind of equal to Bruce, or capable of anything extraordinary like escaping that pit.

Talia did.

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Also true. But still, Bane had an important role to play in the way things unfolded, which I thought was a nice touch.

Of course. I'm not denying his vital role in the story.

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I know. That's just my way of saying that things like bank robberies are kind of small potatoes compared to scale that the LOS operates on. And that's no knock to The Joker at all. I just think it's apples and oranges.

I know, that wasn't my point though. You had mentioned Bruce came from wealth. That shouldn't have been an obstacle for Bane. It sure wasn't in the comics. I was saying Bane could have been rolling in millions, too, if he wanted to.

If the Joker can afford to burn a giant pyramid of money and still take over Gotham, then Bane can, too.

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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"