Fallible wrote:Of course you think it's her being unreasonable - you happen to believe the same bollocks the praying types do. It's not a part of her job to have to sit there while people talk to their imaginary friends - oddly you don't seem to have any problem at all with the fully of grown adults talking to something they can't see, or with Dawn being made to pander to the childish delusions of others, on her time.

No. That is not why I think she is being unreasonable. As I have already stated what is being said and what my beliefs are make no difference to me.

On her time? It's the organizations time, not hers, and she can quit if it bothers her so, or bring an ipod or something if they allow it. If they didn't allow her to listed to her ipod during the prayer, that would be cause for concern.

Dawn just explained that she would not be allowed to listen to an ipod, so are you now concerned as you said you would be in the part I bolded above?

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The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.

amkerman wrote:Yes. She should not be forced to pay attention to a prayer.

She not be forced to even be in the room when the prayer is taking place, never mind pay attention. She could off somewhere else getting caught up on her work, and getting paid for her time. Or she could even be surfing the net or talking to her friends on the phone. After all, if Christian workers are getting paid for doing non-work related activities, so should she.

"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde

Fallible wrote:Of course you think it's her being unreasonable - you happen to believe the same bollocks the praying types do. It's not a part of her job to have to sit there while people talk to their imaginary friends - oddly you don't seem to have any problem at all with the fully of grown adults talking to something they can't see, or with Dawn being made to pander to the childish delusions of others, on her time.

No. That is not why I think she is being unreasonable. As I have already stated what is being said and what my beliefs are make no difference to me.

On her time? It's the organizations time, not hers, and she can quit if it bothers her so, or bring an ipod or something if they allow it. If they didn't allow her to listed to her ipod during the prayer, that would be cause for concern.

Dawn just explained that she would not be allowed to listen to an ipod, so are you now concerned as you said you would be in the part I bolded above?

Yes. She should not be forced to pay attention to a prayer.

Looks like your free ipod plan wasn't a winner.

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose,And nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free.

Lion IRC wrote:A hospice - a place where people go to die - offering spiritual support, a place which has bereavement services and chaplains, clergy and employees who are Christians.....

Shocking! I can't imagine how hard that must be for you - a healthy person - to have to put up with.

I know!

Maybe you can find work at an atheists-only hospice.

FIFY

There is nothing "secular" about a hospice. It's not a place where you impose church/state separation, "political correctness" on sick and dying people and their carers. I'm astonished that a great big strong healthy atheist cant cope with something as culturally ORGANIC and central to our spirituality as human beings as prayer - also referred to in the bible as meditation.

Lion IRC wrote:I was talking about (healthy) atheists who object to the sound of people praying - in a hospice for the dying.

When exactly did hospices become places of worship? Oh, that's right: never.

Lion IRC wrote:There is nothing "secular"religious about a hospice. It's not a place where you impose church/state separationyour personal beliefs, "political correctness"2000 year old fairytales on sick and dying people and their carers.

FIFY.

~ Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance. - Will Durant ~

Fallible wrote:So...she shouldn't suck it up if she's being forced to pay attention, but otherwise she should.

She should suck it up anyways because failure to comply could mean her job, but I fail to see the point in mandating attention of non-believers (or anyone, for that matter) If the prayer is wholly irrelevant to the objectives of the staff meeting.

Edited for completeness of thought.

Last edited by amkerman on Feb 21, 2012 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lion IRC wrote:Ahh...the workplace.That lovely world where you NEVER have to put up with stuff you don't like.

I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to get me doing something which was against my religion.

Careful, dear, your privilege is showing.

I was talking about (healthy) atheists who object to the sound of people praying - in a hospice for the dying.

Are the staff dying, because it sounds like prayers for patients isn't the issue. Or does forcing the staff to engage in prayer meetings against their will improve the patient's chances of a peaceful death?

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose,And nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free.

I should also add that she tried to start a special prayer meeting that is not part of a mandatory meeting to meet weekly and the only person that showed up was a Buddhist who wanted to meditate so she stopped it.

Thanks, Shrunk. I have been thinking about this lately. I do not want to sue, but the principle of this issue is important to me. I have thought about getting information to send to HR in a positive way showing concern and suggesting that they deal with a problem that might bite them in the butt in the future. There are several frustrated people that I know of that feel the way I do. I don't talk to that many people about this issue because it is sensitive and because I am working in the field most of the time so there is no telling how many more are not happy. I may be in the majority and not know it. There are plenty of professional people who are Christians that probably don't want religion brought into the workplace.

I do need this job. I am a licensed professional and could probably find a job if I lost this one, but this is a state with very high unemployment so I don't know. I am handling my frustrations better when I limit my office interaction so I am trying to focus on my time with clients and not spend too much time in the office.

I did start in the office Valentine's Day and they had some chocolate covered strawberries out for employees. The chaplain inserted herself between the employees and the chocolate and insisted on doing a blessing before anyone served themselves. She does this for any office meals. The cumulative effect of all of it has become a huge irritant. I did simply walk out of the room that time. I may do more of this. The problem with doing that in the meeting is that her sermons vary in time and I don't know when to come back. I will still probably do this.

amkerman wrote:She should suck it up anyways because failure to comply could mean her job, (...)

I agree, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a point. It's an absurd situation. The preacher claims she's doing it to please the christian majority on the staff, but according to Dawn they are among the people working through the prayers. Seems to me like the actual majority are the people who just want to do their job instead of having their time wasted.

(...) but I fail to see the point in mandating the attention of non-believers If the prayer is wholly irrelevant to the objectives of the staff meeting.

We agree again. This is where I doubt it's even lawful, but IMHO it's not worth risking your job over, especially when you're the main provider for your family. I just think she should be allowed to leave the room, wear headphones or whatever.

~ Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance. - Will Durant ~

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The irony of this is that most of my clients assume I am a Christian. I don't share my personal beliefs with them. I am very glad to support them and their personal beliefs. I am there to help them and my needs are not important in dealing with clients.

I just want the respect as an employee to not have a belief system forced onto me. We are supposed to all be professionals who are sensitive to different belief systems. Hospice chaplains are supposed to offer spiritual support to patients and families at their request and in a way that is respectful to them no matter what religion they have. There have even been atheists that have allowed them to visit for support. (I wonder how that worked out for the patient) I find it disturbing that this chaplain is so insensitive to employee diversity and I do wonder how this insensitivity may be affecting patients.

Ultimately, I will probably suck it up as I have been doing for 5 years now to keep my job. This particularly pushy chaplain has only been here for a year and she has raised the irritation factor.

I mainly needed to vent here for support. I am a very pragmatic person. I am weighing whether I should say more to HR, but I suspect for my own survival as an employee that I should not do that. I do feel more and more of a need to say something, but I am going to sit with that feeling for awhile before deciding to act. My coworker that is a friend thinks I should not say anything. He plans to mock her to give me some stress relief.

Lion IRC wrote:Ahh...the workplace.That lovely world where you NEVER have to put up with stuff you don't like.

I wouldn't work somewhere that tried to get me doing something which was against my religion.

Careful, dear, your privilege is showing.

I was talking about (healthy) atheists who object to the sound of people praying - in a hospice for the dying.

It would be objectionable for an atheist to complain about that. Why do you bring it up here, though? If you've heard of any such cases, you could start a thread about them. Have you anything to say on the topic of this thread?

Last edited by Shrunk on Feb 22, 2012 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde

Lion IRC wrote:I was talking about (healthy) atheists who object to the sound of people praying - in a hospice for the dying.

When exactly did hospices become places of atheist fascism? Oh, that's right: never.

Lion IRC never wrote:There is nothing "secular" or COMMUNIST about a hospice. It's not a place where Big Brother imposes its dictatorial church/state separation on our personal beliefs, "political correctness gone mad" versus 50,000 year old and still going strong theism. These are sick and dying people and their carers - LEAVE THEM ALONE!.