Let's see....
I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
She didn't want any prayer in our schools.

And we said, OK.

------------------

Then, someone said:
You better not read the Bible in school,
The Bible that says
"Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
And love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK...

-----------------

Dr. Benjamin Spock said:
We shouldn't spank our children
When they misbehave
Because their little personalities
Would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem.

And we said:
An expert should know what he's talking about
So we won't spank them anymore..

------------------

Then someone said:
Teachers and principals better not
Discipline our children when they misbehave.

And the school administrators said:
No faculty member in this school
Better touch a student when they misbehave
Because we don't want any bad publicity,
And we surely don't want to be sued.

And we accepted their reasoning...

------------------

Then some wise school board member said:
Since boys will be boys
And they're going to do it anyway,
Let's give our sons all the condoms they want,
So they can have all the fun they desire,
And we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great idea...

------------------

Then some of our top elected officials said:
It doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.

And we said,
It doesn't matter what anybody, including the President,
Does in private as long as we have jobs and the economy is good....

------------------

And someone else took that appreciation a step further
And published pictures of nude children
And then stepped further still by
Making them available on the Internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free speech....

------------------

And the entertainment industry said:
Let's make TV shows and movies that promote
Profanity, violence and illicit sex.
And let's record music that encourages
Rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes...

And we said:
It's just entertainment
And it has no adverse effect
And nobody takes it seriously anyway,
So go right ahead.

------------------

Now we're asking ourselves:
Why our children have no conscience,
Why they don't know right from wrong,
And why it doesn't bother them to
Kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.

------------------

Undoubtedly,
If we thought about it long and hard enough,
We could figure it out.
I'm sure it has a great deal to do with...
"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW,"

Rick C

July 22nd, 2006, 06:55 PM

Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:

I am not allowed in schools.

Sincerely,

God

-----------------

How did this get started???

Let's see....
I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
She didn't want any prayer in our schools.

And we said, OK.

------------------

Then, someone said:
You better not read the Bible in school,
The Bible that says
"Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
And love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK...

Snork!!!

I would call that a classic example of the fear/punishment mechanism of an organized religion.

Right in line with Pat Robertson warning of doomsday for Dover, Pennsylvania.

Conservative Christian televangelist Pat Robertson told citizens of a Pennsylvania town that they had rejected God by voting their school board out of office for supporting “intelligent design” and warned them Thursday not to be surprised if disaster struck.

“I’d like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in your area, don’t turn to God, you just rejected him from your city,” Robertson said on his daily television show broadcast from Virginia, “The 700 Club.”

“And don’t wonder why he hasn’t helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I’m not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that’s the case, don’t ask for his help because he might not be there,” he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9995578/

And really, how different is that from a radical Islamic cleric warning of doom for non-believers.

Both are meant to invoke fear to impress upon you a certain way of thinking, to elicit a certain action through fear.

In Calgary two weeks ago, the reverend of the non-denominational church at the Calgary International Airport said the city would be subject to disaster from God because three village elders from Ghana had been on stage at the Stampede Grandstand show and engaged a ritualistic purging of evil spirits.

He interpreted this as "pagan worship" and warned of disaster for the city because of it.

Seriously. And ridiculously.

I think its a legitimate debate to wonder if the violence we see on TV or in movie theatres has an influence on the occasional disasters we see in schools . . . . . and there are a lot of other good points in the post originating this string.

But prayer in schools? C'mon . . . . just leave God out of it.

Strangely, I'm not even an atheist . . . . just no fan of organized religion which, as we well know, has plenty of violence to its credit and blood on its hands to no end.

Ah, don't mind me . . . . . just got back from a long, long, long multi-hour bike ride on the highway in 33 degree heat and had a beer before settling down here to nitpick. :sorry:

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

jiorji

July 22nd, 2006, 07:57 PM

i agree.
Religious causes much too much narrow minded thought. To bring it in public schools, a place of learning and exploration, would create boundaries for students who wish to express themselves and perhaps study scientifical issues that are banned by the church.

I think it's good that we learn of different faiths but in clear and open mind, not through one view only, which only pushes us to believe in one god. I think that only creates aggravation between religious groups and it teaches kids to not respect other faiths, which i think is wrong.

Secondly, if you wish your child to study in a school of god, there are facilities for that. To push god in a school of diverse nationalitites, where kids are of many faiths, would be unfair.

jiorji

July 22nd, 2006, 08:01 PM

-----------------

Now we're asking ourselves:
Why our children have no conscience,
Why they don't know right from wrong,
And why it doesn't bother them to
Kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.

I think it's the parents' duty to teach the kids right from wrong. Too many parents allow other figures to discipline their kids and then they wonder. seeing violence and sex on tv i find to be less offensive than a parent who has no time for their child to sit and explain how to process that sort of information. I think that the reason why so many student snap and kill classmates is because no one listens to them. It has nothing to do with TV.

my opinion anyways :)

Golden Girls

July 22nd, 2006, 08:48 PM

Interesting reading

marko

July 23rd, 2006, 07:44 AM

Religion and chat RARELY go well together in open forums and this thread has the potential to sour quickly. As long as it stays civil - it will stay open.

Thanks all,

phoenix

July 23rd, 2006, 07:59 AM

I think it's the parents' duty to teach the kids right from wrong. Too many parents allow other figures to discipline their kids and then they wonder. seeing violence and sex on tv i find to be less offensive than a parent who has no time for their child to sit and explain how to process that sort of information. I think that the reason why so many student snap and kill classmates is because no one listens to them. It has nothing to do with TV.

my opinion anyways :)

Interesting, and I think you're right.

However, we can't afford to leave this up to the parents. Often the parents are children themselves (often in age, but more often in mentality).

I liked it Rainbow. Not necessarily the religion part, but as a teacher it resounded with me. Too often schools are the first resort last resort and social safety net and we miss lots of kids... and boy is it hard to teach "entitled" kids.

mastifflover

July 23rd, 2006, 08:21 AM

Rick I agree with you totally keep religion out of schools. We live in a very diverse country and not all religions worship the same god. So what prayer do you use that is not going to insult some and appease others. If you want religion in schools then you should be going to a religious school. I personally believe religion is the cause of more violence and wars then TV is. As parents you are ultimately responsible for your own children what they watch or do. School is a place of learning and socialization and is not there to raise your kids. Teachers have a very hard job and are certainly not monetarly compensated for it and sadly to say it has become a dangerous job. But I still do not believe violence on TV or in movies is why it may, it may have desensitized us but, you also do not have to watch it you can turn the channel or not watch at all. That is a freedom to choose

glasslass

July 23rd, 2006, 08:41 AM

Forget the diversity of church doctrines. Would be nice if they would just emphasize the Golden Rule - and extend it to include animals.

LavenderRott

July 23rd, 2006, 09:21 AM

Ok. Here are my thoughts on the subject. I will post them and then run away, because, as Marko says chats on religion rarely stay civil.

First off, it is important that you know that I am not a member of an organized religion. I am not Wiccan or Pagan or anything like that. I am also not Athiest. I very strongly believe that there is a God, I just can't seem to find a religion that I fit into. :D

I think that religions should be taught in school. I think that children who want to say the Pledge of Allegiance including the "under God" part should be able to. I think that if a group of young girls (or boys) want to meet after school to discuss the Bible or the Koran, or whatever religious works they want, have just as much right to use an empty classroom as the football team has to the big field out back.

I think that a manger scene in front of Town Hall at Christmas time is a beautiful thing. I think that standing in a courtroom, with your right hand on a Bible, and swearing to tell the truth "So help you God" is a solemn oath. I think that a cross on the side of the road in rememberance of someone who died in an accident is touching tribute.

I believe that until the people's of this world can learn to be more tolerant of different religions or some people's lack of religion we are doomed. A quick look at the morning news will show you that things in the Middle East are not so great. And it is mostly over religion. The Muslim's want to destroy the Jews and the Jews want to keep their land. The Sunni's and the Shiites are fighting over Iraq.

Yes, these conflicts are ages old. But maybe, just maybe, if the rest of the world was more tolerant and excepting of different religions and differing beliefs things would't have escalated to the point that they have.

Maybe if we teach our children that the world is a big place, populated by more people then one could imagine then there would be hope for the world when our generation is gone. Because right now, I just don't see it.

Rick C

July 23rd, 2006, 09:31 AM

Religious tolerance can only come from the separation of church and state . . . . . religious intolerance comes when that barrier blurs.

Keeping religion out of schools, beyond the education of the basic elementals of organized religions, is a foundation of that principle.

Hey, I won a jackknife for best attendance in Pentecostal Sunday School, so I'm not unsympathetic . . . . . my point isn't a rant against organized religion . . . . . I'm just saying if you want a tolerant society just keep religion in churches and mosques and out of government and schools.

My thoughts.

Rick C
www.goldentales.ca

technodoll

July 23rd, 2006, 10:16 AM

rainbow i got the point of your original post... very interesting, and yes i support the fact that our society has gone to h3ll very quickly the past few decades. we are no longer as trusting of our neighbors, our children, and our leaders as we used to be. corruption, lack of decency and low morals seem to be rampant and i believe the media plays a big part of it (blowing things out of proportion, bringing "the world" into our homes, and let's not talk about censorship!). we have become a society of Fear. when was the last time you walked to the cornerstore and left your house unlocked (and felt safe about it), or gave a lift to a hitchhiker, etc? i'm not saying things were better "in the old days", but it seems to me there was a lot more trust going on. :(

CyberKitten

July 23rd, 2006, 11:31 AM

My own personal experience (which of course is NOT at all scientific or emperical and thus meaninful only to me) is my attendence at a Roman Catholic school - the elementary one French, the other more Irish and thus English being the first language - was actually quite progressive. I did have the benefit of a father whose background was different than mine (or my mother's) and thus would ponder from time to time "what kind of nonsense" my homework was, lol He loathes organized religion and has a healthy skepticism - I am a cultural "Irish Canadian" Catholic who values other cultures. My mother served as Principal of a Catholic school for a time yet she assured me that contrary to the admonitions from Soeur G., I would not be burning in hell for visiting either a Protestant Church or a Jewish Temple. I have always been fascinated by all kinds of religions and spiritual heritages though am not keen on the dark side which some use politically for war.

That said, I think God - whatever one conceives the ultimate reality to be - does not belong in a pulic school system. If parents choose to pay tuition to send their children to a faith based school, that is their choice and in a democratic society, they should have that right. But taxpayers should not be forced to pay for beliefs they themselves may not share. My nephew attended a secular private school but also attended Hebrew School. This was a personal choice.

I see many many many children and teenagers. Regardless of background (even with no organized religion), the vast majority of them are turning out absolutely fine and make us all proud!

Prin

July 23rd, 2006, 12:29 PM

Then, someone said:
You better not read the Bible in school,
The Bible that says
"Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
And love your neighbors as yourself,"

And we said, OK... I didn't have a bible in my school and I still know that killing and stealing are wrong. You don't need a bible to teach morality.

I think that standing in a courtroom, with your right hand on a Bible, and swearing to tell the truth "So help you God" is a solemn oath.It is if you believe it. But making people who don't believe in the Christian God or any other god swear the bible is meaningless. ;)

I do think that there should be a religion course in schools, but one that is more like a history class and teaches the fundamentals of each major religion along with its origin.

In my elementary school, most of the kids were Catholic, and while my parents may have been Catholic, from an early age I didn't believe any of it. No matter how hard my dad tried, none of us believed it. So my dad fought for us and got a new program put in place at that school that we took in lieu of the religion. By the second year, most of the parents had switched their kids into it because they thought what we were learning was of more value. We were learning about current events and how they affect us and how they are affected by culture, religion and nations. For example, we learned about the Berlin wall coming down and why that was significant (I was still in elementary school when it came down).

Religion is something you learn at home, IMO. And it's not the lack of religion that is causing this supposed deterioration of society, but a lack of parenting.

When the parents aren't home, who do the kids learn from? Between the last bell at 3 and the parents' arrival at home at 6, what do you think the kids are doing? Is it the teachers' fault?

erykah1310

July 25th, 2006, 05:30 PM

I dont think it has alot to do with religion, I was brought up baptist and carry my beliefs with me, and no one ever can take them from me.
However, I am coincidentally a "well adjusted" adult now too, I dont think it really has alot to do with religion but more or less my parents.
I have always said . "If i can raise my kids the way my parents raised me, things will be alright" I truely believe they did a wonderful job ( not the best parents but they were quite close ;) ) we had our "difference of opinions" as all of us do.
Growing up i always had a say in things.
For example: if i wanted to go to a party with my friends, my dad of course said no, but... there was always room to state why i think i should be able to go. If my arguement was valid, i could go ( until a certain time of course)

Example 2: I always wanted rides.... EVERYWHERE!! this drove my dad and mom insane, so... on top of my regular chores there was "bonus" chores that i didnt have to do but if i did i would get tokens. After so many tokens I could get a ride so far!

Back on topic more though, I think alot of it has to do with kids not being listened to anymore, there is minimal communication between parents and kids.

Also, I would like to point out Rainbow, I too thought this was a good eye openener. Really makes you think anyway, regardless of what YOUR morals and values are.