Clarifying Shun's SE -> chouwan

While I was in New York, I had the opportunity to converse with Hiro on this subject and he wanted me to pass the following message.

In his opinion, SE -> chouwan IS guaranteed, and for the following reasons.

1. Llanfair had stated that the opponent's recovery time after Shun's SE is 13 frames after SE, and that the chouwan took 13 frames to hit, and henceforth there is time to escape the chouwan. However, Hiro maintains that this reasoning is inaccurate because even though the opponent recovers within 13 frames, the opponent does not begin to move until the 14th frame. Hence, timed correctly, the opponent does not have time to escape unless the chouwan was executed late (even 1 frame late).

2. The window in which you can buffer in commands has been lessened from 3 in TB. Basically, if you begin to input the CD command as soon as Shun does an SE, the computer would have discarded the command input by the time the opponent recovers from the SE and can begin moving, and a CD would not come out.

3. Hiro and Nelson, a Shun specialist, performed the following experiment. Nelson would SE, and Hiro would repeatedly mash K, a standing kick. Nelson goes for a chouwan after SE. If Shun's opponent can recover in time to CD away safely, that means there should be enough time for the K to register and Nelson should be able to get a chouwan MC (whose animation is very distinguishable). However, after many tries, an MC chouwan does not come out and the SE -> chouwan appears exactly as it always does. This means that the K never had time to come out or even register.

Based on these three points (and especially the third one), I am personally inclined to think that SE -> chouwan is indeed guaranteed. The only thing that I can think of is that during Llanfair's tests, the chouwan was executed slightly late and that was why a CD was possible. However, Llanfair's previous conclusions does point to one vital thing--if Shun is even a little late in getting the chouwan, it could be escaped. Meaning, there is always a chance to avoid a 50%++ combo from Shun. /images/icons/wink.gif

all that technical blah-blah..did you guys test at all to see if you could actually CD out of it? why the hell did you test to see if you could MC a TT kick when that has nothing to do with anything llanfair stated?

Don't ask me, ask Hiro (who should be in Japan by now) or Nelson. I am merely passing on what he asked to me to say. I created an account for him, but sadly, he declined to post himself. /images/icons/frown.gif

However, the standing K test seems quite convincing to me. A CD is much more difficult than a simple K, and it would be harder to implement. If you can't CD away in time, does that mean it's not possible or does that mean you're just not doing it right? By mashing on K and seeing if the chouwan MCs, it's much easier to minimize the chances of the latter happening.

A different but similar case is Kage's f+P+G, DP:
Only in Dreamcast, and only Akira, Lau, Jeffrey, Kage, Jacky can avoid fastest input DP but holding D/F after f+P+G. This is a some technical error that won't happen in Arcade version. Kage has only +11 adv (remember this can't be reduce by struggling), and his DP comes out in 15fr, 4 fr late yet DP is still guranteed in Arcade. And because it is 4 fr late, if you press K repeatly, TT K will come out and you will be MCed by the DP. In Shun's d/f+P+G case, Shun has 13 fr adv, and Chouwan comes out in 13 fr, no matter how you press the K as long as Shun do the Chouwan at fastest timing, your kick won't come out and therefore no MC. Anyone with American DC perhaps can try this out (i don't have it so i am not sure if you can do this), if you can, just set CPU to continously K.

Please people do not get too sensitive, everyone makes mistake, and I don't think Ice's response worth this sort of flame. Until recently this board has been helpful and friendly, let's keep it that way.

at 40 drink, Shun doesn't need to use his SE throw to get Chouwan backfist x2, Triple sweep, you can do it up front, normal hit.

Some other more useful tidbits for Shun:
At 6 drinks, Shun can get SE, Chouwan backfist, Chouwan, small pounce on Pai and Sarah (Poor girls...again). Other characters except Heavies are possible but require way more drinks.

Shun gets free butt throw if Akira miss his SPoD (2/3)

Shun can butt throw rival Shun player if oppt tries to SE, E-Backthrow.. (huh..the hardest part for this one is to find another Shun player ^^

...was that, basically, if K does not come out (which you can tell by no-MC example Ice stated), crouch-dash cannot come out either. Hiro must have picked K for the purely experimental purpose. Crouch-dash, depending on people, may be hard to do at the fastest timing on a consistent basis.

Thiking about it, I also came up with another homework for Shun's SE situation. Many people, including myself, believe that Shun's SE -> E -> back-throw is guaranteed. The fastest timing where you can cancel E with some move is at the 13th frame; thus, E -> back-throw practically has the same execution time of 13 frames, same as that of Chowan.

Only escape method found to this date is Shun vs. Shun matchup. If the victim-to-be Shun also has enough drink points, both Shun will be at 50-50 chance of throwing each other(For one reason, throw has no execution time once the command input is complete). I wonder if you can crouch-dash away from this one; my guess is that you cannot.

Lastly, I thank Sumeragi for informing us about Kage's f+PG situation. For the first time, I understand why Kage's f+PG -> hop-kick combo is much more consistent than DP counterpart. Since hop-kick is connecting during the guaranteed frame, the enemy float is always consistent. Aha, now I see the light....

OK...I'll also be off to Japan soon. So it may be a while till I appear on this board again. Enjoy your Christmas vacation.

considering that the designers have put in other highly specialized tweaks (such as recovering from Akira's f,b+P+G by inputing something in such and such a frame BUT ONLY THAT frame), i wouldn't be at all surprised if they did something similar with Shun's SE-Chouwan. ie, in ordinary circumstances you can't even begin to move before the chouwan comes out, but IF you hold d/f from frame x to y of Shun's SE execution, you're character will recover sooner and crouch dash away. or something like that.

Well, to put in an additional comment to the Akira analogy--recovering the f,b+P+G is actually visible. I.e. if you look carefully you can tell if the opponent recovered from the f,b+P+G. If the opponent is any good and recovered on purpose, he/she would realize it too and thus anticipate the bodycheck and hold guard.

This presents a guessing game for the Akira player. If the Akira player can anticipate the opponent recovering and holding guard, the Akira player can immediately go for a FBG combo that will take 50%. Or he can attempt to throw the opponent right away. Etc.

The point is that the developers put in this special recovery to the f,b+P+G on purpose to facilitate and reward the player with the better yomi, timing, and skill. If the opponent is not good, he probably won't be able to recover the bodycheck from the f,b+P+G. If the opponent is good, he would be able to recover and block. But if the Akira player is even better, the Akira player would be able to adjust and FBG combo instead, which is even more rewarding than a straightforward f,b+P+G -> bodycheck. And if the opponent tries anything else other than blocking, a bodycheck should still connect in most cases (except for a very well timed E, perhaps, I'm not sure). Considering how Akira is played (DBG, ST, d/b+P+G), the f,b+P+G recovery seems in step with his playing style.

Putting a special recovery/escape into Shun's SE -> chouwan, however, doesn't make as much sense. For one, Shun's throws are hopelessly underpowered without it. P+G, d/f+P+G, and b+P+G -- only three throw escapes an opponent should be concerned with, and if neither of them can get that much damage?

And let's say an opponent is able to escape the SE -> chouwan with a crouch dash--what then? What if Shun can anticipate the opponent escaping the chouwan with a crouch dash? What can he do to punish the opponent? Answer: nothing much. f,f+K perhaps. QD -> chouwan back fist -> D+P+K,K,K combo at best. End analysis, whatever Shun can do, it will not be as rewarding as the typical SE -> chouwan guaranteed combo. And that's the Shun player being smarter than the opponent who escaped the SE with a CD!

This sort of reasoning is why I was so hesitant to accept that the chouwan can be escaped out of the SE. It simply doesn't make sense in terms of character balance. Shun is widely acknowledged as being one of the weakest characters by "mainstream" VF players (rankings don't mean much to specialists); why would AM2 strip him of one of his major offensive weapons and make him even weaker? An escapable SE -> chouwan is significant enough that even Shun specialists will complain.

If such a special recovery exists, then it must be a programming bug and not one instituted by design (unlike Akira's f,b+P+G).

you had an opportunity to test llanfairs claim with some of the finest players in the country. but you didn't. all you do now is go off on tangents trying your hardest to explain why it likely won't work.

this is not a flame, just an observation...

and mike, flame or not before, i was only being sarcastic. i am not alone when i say that this vfdc board seems like one big shrine to hiro.

okay...i just wanted to comment that when i first read Llanfairs post about the escape, Hiro and i <font color=white>DID TRY IT OUT</font color=white> for a while...but when the command was inputted at the fastest possible time...I COULD NOT crouch dash away and ate the chouwan! We also tries to slightly delay the timings of the input and then and only then was i able to CD away!
So, ICE did not actually try it out with hiro, I did, but i couldnt understand the technical explanation of WHY it was guaranteed and that is why Hiro just explained it to ice....as he was able to understand what the hell hiro was trying to say...and thus ICE relayed it to everyone else on this message board. But i guess the people who have a sophisticated understanding about the game system seem to agree that it is in fact guaranteed (even though i didnt understand why at first...through actual trial and error i realized what hiro was trying to say).

I remember reading one of Shota's messages in the "Japanese vs Western" type of threads, and I remember him prefacing his post with a "I'm not being racist or reverse-racist..." and I wondered what he was talking about. I think I do now.

No offense Rich, but you are letting this "one big shrine to hiro" cloud your judgment. Hiro's explanation of his experiments sounded very logical to me--if it was someone else telling me the same thing, my reaction wouldn't change. After testing the standing K experiment in the Training Mode, I am now quite convinced myself.

I am sensing a lot of counter-reaction to Hiro's reputation as a player, and this disturbs me as it seems to be getting into people's minds. "Oh look, this is what Hiro says. Everyone thinks he's a God, but I don't think so, and that's why I'm going to disagree with what he says."

I've tried telling it the way I see it. I think Hiro is a great player, and he wins, but I hardly think he is God. (In fact, I think he's my bitch. /images/icons/smile.gif) At first, I didn't want to post his message because I knew I was going to get this sort of a reaction. I was afraid some of you were going to see me as his "lackey", and it appears that's what has happened. This is unfortunate, as some of you may be practicing the equivalent of reverse-racism without even realizing it.

jeff...i'm about as open, tolerant and as accepting a person you can find when it comes to race. i wouldn't care if you call me a white-dog-round-eye-polock bastard to my face; in fact i'd probably get a good chuckle out of it. and i agree with kbcat...the term "reverse racism" is bullshit.

btw some of us have been meaning to have a "RACE WAR!" team battle tournament for years (never got around to it at vancouver '97). white vs asian VF'ers! who's the best?! if we get enough of the best players at this upcoming toronto thing we might be able to prove this once and for all (at least within this continent. and guess where i'd put my betting money on it...).

anyway..the "hiro shrine" comment was not directed at this thread or your attitude towards llan. it comes from frustration with VFDC and the whole way the VF "community" has mutated within the last year or so. myself and many other old farts who have been around since the beginning (rgva) really find this place kind of a joke, especially when it comes to some of people who post on the board. no one accepts anything unless they see it for themselves anymore. no one understands or appreciates the contributions and thoughts of older players who have been around for years. no one gives a shit about another player unless they've played them before. SOMEONE doesn't upload good helpful info that's been around for years when it's sent to them.

we're content to babble about hiro, useless moves, doing stupid things, and listen to twits prattle on about how good they think they are. if anyone brought up people like mason wood, cody wood, superdoug, darren berry, sitson lee, lan bui, colin leong, akira yeh, joji suzuki, robertson, basil chan, brian mak, jim ross (yupasawa), jan bloxham, lars sorenson, most here would react with a veiled "huh? who the fuck are those idiots? i never heard of them. they probably sucked. and have you played hiro? he's DA BOMB!" it's very hiro/ny/midwest-centric here. no one cares for the past or players from the past. i read things like "repeated PK's work well. adam showed me". no fucking shit...myself and others have been doing that since VF3 came out.

it's a distrustful, disenchanted, fractionized and disgruntled "community" that we have here. sega is in shambles, VF4 is nowhere in sight, and VF3tb DC is shit. how long do you think we'll last before we all move on? how long before someone goes to vfdc and finds the page hasn't been updated in months? and the message board dead (or at least cluttered with posts like that freak jefflaw's).

KBCat, I'm no sociologist and I don't know what "reverse-racism" is either. But, I can definitely understand the concept of placing so much emphasis on being "unracist" to the degree that the other race becomes discriminated against.

But, that's not what I'm saying here. I'm not suggesting that there is racism on this board. What I'm really saying is that a form of prejudice exists. Prejudice against Hiro and prejudice against Japanese players. I suspect a lot of this prejudice stems from people who perceive others of being prejudiced against "American VF", if you will, and that is how the "racism vs reverse-racism" analogy came up (I apologize if it was inaccurate). To be honest though, I think some of this perceived prejudice is unfounded.

btw some of us have been meaning to have a "RACE WAR!" team battle tournament for years (never got around to it at vancouver '97). white vs asian VF'ers! who's the best?! if we get enough of the best players at this upcoming toronto thing we might be able to prove this once and for all (at least within this continent. and guess where i'd put my betting money on it...).

Forgive me if I choose not to participate.

myself and many other old farts who have been around since the beginning (rgva) really find this place kind of a joke, especially when it comes to some of people who post on the board.

I apologize, but who exactly do you consider part of the "old farts"?

no one accepts anything unless they see it for themselves anymore. no one understands or appreciates the contributions and thoughts of older players who have been around for years. no one gives a shit about another player unless they've played them before.

Whether this is regrettable or not, I choose not to comment, but, is it so surprising? Can you blame a person for choosing not to form a judgement about another player's skill unless he has played the person himself? I don't. It's very clear that there is a distinction between theory and ability; they don't always come hand in hand.

If there are people who "bash" on another player's ability without having actually met and played them, then that's not right. But as far as I know, most of the posters who refrain from praising those "old farts" at least do not criticize their playing ability either.

SOMEONE doesn't upload good helpful info that's been around for years when it's sent to them.

The Kage list of TFT combos that you sent me is still saved on my hard drive. The reason why I have not posted it up is because a lot of the damage pts that you listed do not match the Dreamcast's. Since most players now play the DC version of VF3, I thought it would be more appropriate if they corresponded. Further, as far as I'm aware, the damage pts you listed are estimations from the arcade. The Training Mode on the Dreamcast, on the other hand, yields exact numbers. I very much appreciate your list (didn't I send you an e-mail saying so?), but it's not complete yet and I want a little more time to make it perfect. Please, don't worry, the credit is still all yours.

I've been waiting for some sort of long weekend where there's nothing much for me to do so I can sit down and test all those combos one by one. However, no such weekend has really come up. And finally, we have a ton of Kage stuff on this site. The Kage section is really the most advanced on this site. I want a VF community with a wide variety of characters, so my emphasis is balanced coverage of all the characters. That is why your list has a somewhat lower priority than say, a Sarah Step 1 guide. I hope you can understand.

we're content to babble about hiro, useless moves, doing stupid things, and listen to twits prattle on about how good they think they are. if anyone brought up people like mason wood, cody wood, superdoug, darren berry, sitson lee, lan bui, colin leong, akira yeh, joji suzuki, robertson, basil chan, brian mak, jim ross (yupasawa), jan bloxham, lars sorenson, most here would react with a veiled "huh? who the fuck are those idiots? i never heard of them. they probably sucked. and have you played hiro? he's DA BOMB!"

You're right. Among all these players, I've only met and played Joji and Yupasawa, but I totally respect them. If they appeared at a gathering or two, I would also be more than happy to write about them and describe their playing style.

But what do you expect from people like me? Are we supposed to lavish praise on people we've never heard of or played with? I don't even recall reading an FAQ that was written by any of these people (although I don't read many FAQs in the first place, and I am not a VF2 player). A lot of players, on the other hand, have met and played with Hiro. Some people think he's pretty good. Maybe they don't have a basis for comparison, now that all these "old farts" no longer maintain a presence, but so what?

It's very hiro/ny/midwest-centric here. no one cares for the past or players from the past.

Should people care about the past? If those players from the past were still playing today I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

i read things like "repeated PK's work well. adam showed me". no fucking shit...myself and others have been doing that since VF3 came out.

It's no secret, but Adam takes advantage of it really well. It's no wonder too, considering how Akira (and Wolf) have the best advantage stats on a P,K (I don't remember exactly what the numbers were). Maybe my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, but I don't remember you giving me trouble with P,Ks. I do remember the kickflips though, and I wrote about that. And what's so special about kickflips? Well, none. It's usefulness is well documented. Take your own comment about Adam's P,K and substitute with your Kage and kickflips...same exact thing.

People mention the P,K when they think of Adam because it distinguishes Adam from everyone else, just the way the kickflip distinguishes you from everyone else.

it's a distrustful, disenchanted, fractionized and disgruntled "community" that we have here.

But is it? To me, this community seems fairly tight knit. Everyone knows everyone. Except for the Virtua Project skirmish between KBCat/Llanfair and Imashroom (which has hopefully been resolved), the "Japanese vs Western VF" between Llanfair and Shota, and now the "New community vs the old community" between you and...me?, things have been quite peaceful. In fact, this board has been praised a number of times for being helpful to newcomers beginning or just returning to the game.

No offense, but I think your perception of this board is the exception, not the rule, although if you insist, it could easily turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

sega is in shambles, VF4 is nowhere in sight, and VF3tb DC is shit. how long do you think we'll last before we all move on?

1 million units in America sold within 2.5 months, and that's in shambles? For comparison sake, the PSX needed a year and a half before it sold its first million units in the U.S. There has been a tidbit of VF4 news mentioned in Blast City. Basically, Yu Suzuki was quoted in Famitsu as stating that developing Shenmue has taught him a lot and that it would help him for creating VF4.

I think we've gone over the VF3tb DC issue before. It's not as good as the arcade, true, but it's still pretty decent and definitely playable even at our standard. Further I don't recall very many TB machines around in this country either. If you ask me, I prefer VF3tb DC over VF3 arcade any day.

how long before someone goes to vfdc and finds the page hasn't been updated in months?

Technically, it's barely over a month, and I was actually planning to update this weekend although a number of projects threaten to strike that possibility out. And since there's been so much stuff going on in Versus City, I didn't think I was really doing visitors a disservice.

and the message board dead (or at least cluttered with posts like that freak jefflaw's).

Well, I've learned a lot of things from this board the past few weeks, and I would confidently say this place is a lot more active than any previous VF board since VF Home. I'm not sure what format you're using, but try changing it back to threaded. I think you'll be surprised what a difference it makes visually; this place seems a lot busier that way. Just look at how many posts we've had, and divide that number by the days this board has existed. That's not a bad number.

A lot of the players playing VF today are posting on this board: ghetto-SHUN, Shota, adamYUKI, Mike Chuang, etc., and of course, yourself; and I better not forget to mention the guys from the UK and Myke from Australia. This is probably as much of a "standard" gathering place for VF fans on the 'Net as you can get.

The bottom line is that a lot of people have worked hard to make Versus City an amicable and worthwhile place to visit, read what others have to write, and post a few tidbits of info and opinion. I really don't appreciate the way you have blown off everyone's efforts by being so negative about the board and insisting on some nostalgic dream of an "old" VF community that not many of us can or care to understand. If you miss the "old farts", fine, I can understand. If they would resurface and rejoin the community, I'm sure this "joke of a place" would be more than happy to welcome them. But until then, perhaps it's not very conducive to insist on living in the past.

you found/made the time to write up this massive reply..html'ing and adding a link can't possibly take longer.

Your post, unfortunately, undermines the credibility of my message board, and I am personally inclined to respond. Further, as I've stated before, I've put a lot of effort into responding to people and writing articles in Versus City; I hardly think visitors who come to virtuafighter.com and don't find the front page updated think they have wasted their time had they browsed VC with some regularity.

>Since most players now play the DC version of VF3

why not put it up anyway? some people do play the arcade version.

But the stats may be incorrect.

>(didn't I send you an e-mail saying so?)

no.

Well, I did.

>But what do you expect from people like me? Are we supposed to lavish praise on people we've never heard of or played with

no. did i ask for that? i brought up those names to make a point.

Which is? You keep mentioning how many of us don't remember old timers...so?

>but I don't remember you giving me trouble with P,Ks

so? oh i understand. you didn't see it, so i'm probably talking out of my ass again.

Would it make you feel better if I acknowledged you as a master of the P,K?