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I like this, I think urgoz being the source of the corruption and likewise Kanaxi causing the currption of Jade sea makes sense. I would vote that you look more into Outcasts, They serve as guards of Kanaxi, and your average pirates dont go working with deamons.

I would vote that you look more into Outcasts, They serve as guards of Kanaxi, and your average pirates dont go working with deamons.

Well, in short, the Outcasts are Luxons who were driven mad by the Nightmare Demons (Kanaxai's Demons), eventually they turn into Oni, and possibly into Aspects of Kanaxai. The turning into Aspects part is speculation but the Outcasts being Luxons driven mad and then turning into Oni is proven by a few NPCs' dialogue. Not many "new" things to look into imo.

Ok did not know if outcasts where originally luxons gone corrupt or a completly different sect this makes sense.
If they become onis what are onis doing in Echovald/Shing Jea. Echovald might be currpted kurziks but the Jade wind never hit Shing Jea. Unless the reason teh onis in shing jea are low level is because they are newer, but I think that is just game mechanics

Well, in short, the Outcasts are Luxons who were driven mad by the Nightmare Demons (Kanaxai's Demons), eventually they turn into Oni, and possibly into Aspects of Kanaxai. The turning into Aspects part is speculation but the Outcasts being Luxons driven mad and then turning into Oni is proven by a few NPCs' dialogue. Not many "new" things to look into imo.

The Outcasts are Luxons driven made simply by close proximity to Kanaxai, actually. Also, the Oni are nightmares of Kanaxai's that just appear out in the world to cause havoc. However, it is possible that Outcasts could become Oni if they were to come even closer to Kanaxai.

The Oni being once Outcasts is actually just a theory presented by a Luxon NPC, Dauv Merishahl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dauv Merishahl

"Oni are curious creatures. We of the Turtle Clan believe they were once human but have become twisted by terrible nightmares from the deep within the Jade Sea. They are similar to the Luxons known as Outcasts, driven to the edge of insanity and irrationally violent. Oni may hold the key to discovering the true nature of the Outcasts. Bring me 2 Keen Oni Talons, and I'll give you this in return:"

I really can't explain the presence of Oni in Shing Jea or Echovald Forest, I think the Shing Jea Oni are there just to "introduce" the idea of assassins and their shadow step pop up, can't say for the ones in the Echovald though.

I really can't explain the presence of Oni in Shing Jea or Echovald Forest, I think the Shing Jea Oni are there just to "introduce" the idea of assassins and their shadow step pop up, can't say for the ones in the Echovald though.

Well, the Location is called "The Deep", so juding from that and the location of Cavalon, The Deep is most likely not in the area. In order to dig deep in the Jade, there had to have been a lot of depth in the area around the time of the Jade Wind. The area around Cavalon is close to land, so it's fairly undeep. We can thus assume the location of The Deep is elsewhere.
Going from what we have on the map and in terms of foes, there's 2 possibilities. Either to the South of The Aurios Mines (going from the large number of Oni and Outcast in the Quarry) or to the West of the Leviathan Pits.
That second one is because of a few reasons.
1) It's almost at the center of the Jade Sea, which is most likely where one of the deepest points lies.
2) This is going by the Luxon Quarries. We can see that there's a few quarries right next to the Echovald Border. The others are south-west of Gyala and just below Seafarer's Rest. We have a large Quarry in the East of the Jade Sea, namely Rhea's Crater. Digging another huge hole in the area seems unneccesary. Whereas quarries to the West would provide new large amounts of Jade that can be transported to the frontline faster. That's most likely the reason to place the Jade Quarry and another small one so close to the Echovald.

So, the centered location (if that is the location of The Deep) might explain the presence of Oni in the Echovald. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Oni don't appear in the deepest parts of the Forest, such as around Amatz Basin. The furthest I can remember Oni is just south of Vasburg Academy, around the Monk boss.
Oni on Shing Jea is...erm, I dunno. Maybe leftover magic from the time Kanaxai was still free and once roamed around Shing Jea?

Wait random thought, The deep was all jade as if underwater befor the wind all mined out, but the end part, with kanaxi is all rock, more like an underwater cavern. Assuming urgoz is a). a super druid that got currpted or a physical manifestation of the currption and a source. If a is true then what was kanaxi befor, did he always live in cavern or just move in. And another random thought. Victor and Archemourus where both killed killing shiro. Most likely be the death scream. A real off shoot but could they have been super corrupted and became urgoz/kanaxi, just a real random thought. But the origin of kanaxi is odd to me. Urgoz is semi explainable and feels organoc to his enviroment. A tree manthing makes semi sense in a forest. A demonic twin axe fighter? Not so much.

So, the centered location (if that is the location of The Deep) might explain the presence of Oni in the Echovald. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Oni don't appear in the deepest parts of the Forest, such as around Amatz Basin. The furthest I can remember Oni is just south of Vasburg Academy, around the Monk boss.
Oni on Shing Jea is...erm, I dunno. Maybe leftover magic from the time Kanaxai was still free and once roamed around Shing Jea?

What a about the Oni in Arborstone? Its not that far from the Jade Sea itself but is from the supposed locations of The Deep. Also, one thing to consider is where the outpost itself is, when you press M, it will be centered on the location of the outpost, even without an outpost symbol. Its been too long since I've gone to the deep, so I don't recall where it was, but I think it was to the south west of Cavalon. But I am probably wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

A real off shoot but could they have been super corrupted and became urgoz/kanaxi, just a real random thought.

Not possible. Both of those warrior's spirits are within their respective objects in the game. They were not corrupted and they (rather involuntarily) help the players fight Shiro, until the object's destruction in Sunjiang District. Also, Urgoz was around before Shiro was as well, I'm not sure if it is mentioned if Kanaxai was, but it is positive that Urgoz was as his Warren was home to Kurzicks until he became corrupted.

Not possible. Both of those warrior's spirits are within their respective objects in the game. They were not corrupted and they (rather involuntarily) help the players fight Shiro, until the object's destruction in Sunjiang District. Also, Urgoz was around before Shiro was as well, I'm not sure if it is mentioned if Kanaxai was, but it is positive that Urgoz was as his Warren was home to Kurzicks until he became corrupted.

Yeah I thought Urgoz was around before, but that leaves the origin of Kanaxxi unkown, seeing as he is also killed befor EotN you can assume he had something to do with the curroption. If he is the jade seas alter to Urgoz in the Echovald, what was he beforhand. a super sea fish?

I wouldn't say he was a fish, as he has a humanoid look. Just as the Kurzicks believe that the "Spirit of the Forest" either died or became corrupted (which caused the Wardens to go berserk), that could mean that Urgoz was a representation of the Spirit of the Forest, which could mean he is the embodiment of the corruption in the Echovald Forest. And if so, then Kanaxai would be a representation of the Spirit of the Jade Sea, which means he is the embodiment of the corruption of the Jade Sea.

In short, Kanaxai could be the embodiment of the Jade Sea's "spirit" which was corrupted.

Not possible. Both of those warrior's spirits are within their respective objects in the game. They were not corrupted and they (rather involuntarily) help the players fight Shiro, until the object's destruction in Sunjiang District.

And Ritualists and, perversely, Dervishes and Paragons can, with the help of Kuunavang, invoke the two for the final mission...

(I really think Dervishes should have got Storm of Swords instead, and Paragons probably could also have got something that fit better. Celestial Stance, possibly.)

Regarding Oni in Echovald - could that simply be that ex-Luxons transformed into Oni still hold onto their prejudices, and continue to raid Kurzick territories just as they did while human?

THat is a possibility for the Oni, although I don't think that is very probable. Just by becoming Outcasts, they seem to hate the other Luxons, and they ally with the Kurzicks as well, as evident in this quest to get to Gyala Hatchery.

Back before the Jade Wind, the Kurzicks lived in the Echovald Forest (back then a peaceful, green, wood forest) and the Luxons lived in the Jade Sea, traveling to trading outposts all through Cantha as they sailed across the ocean.

Obviously, the Kurzicks and Luxons were living in their respective environments before the Jade Wind. The Kurzicks would've had to carve their homes, cathedrals, and monuments into the WOOD. There's no way they could move in *after* the Jade Wind and carve all that stuff out of STONE. The Luxons sailed across the ocean and traded - looking up info for the Leviathans tells you that they had to be converted into land-mobile vehicles, proof that they were there long before. Hell, you can even look it up in the timeline of GW - first the Luxons became "vassal factions" of Cantha, then several years later the Kurzicks followed en suite, *then* many years later the Jade Wind happened. Way back then, the Kurzicks and Luxons were peaceful with each other.

So we have that cleared up? Good.

The Wardens were druids or holy men, as the Manuscripts say. The "Spirit of the Forest" that it mentions was Urgoz. Back then, the Wardens protected and helped the forest and Urgoz guided them. Obviously, the Luxon equivalent is Kanaxai, although I'm not sure as far as which group of foes would have been his "helpers". Anyways, when the Jade Wind happened, it turned Echovald to stone and the Jade Sea to jade - as you know. Whether it was from the Jade Wind itself or from their respective environments being ruined that corrupted Urgoz and Kanaxai we may never know, but either way, they were twisted mentally and physically, along with their servants. This is NOT like Kunnavang being corrupted - Kunnavang was directly possessed by Shiro to do his bidding, Urgoz and Kanaxai were corrupted for the two above reasons.

The Jade Wind was caused by a purely HUMAN affliction. There was no outside or supernatural force involved - only the power of Shiro being demonically released as the result of an unfortunate chain of events. As a result, Urgoz, Kanaxai, and their respective servants (the Wardens and the creatures of the sea) began to hate humans, for what they did to them, or for what they did to their environment, or both.

The Kurzicks and Luxons began warring only after the Jade Wind. They would have had no reason to beforehand. After the Jade Wind, resources would have OBVIOUSLY become scarce for both Factions - the forest was now stone, they couldn't grow crap, the sea was made of Jade, they couldn't sail places and trade with people. Not only that, but now both groups have lots of baddies to deal with. As a result, they would naturally try to best each other in a desperate struggle for resources.

As far as life sprouting up in the Echovald and puddles appearing in the Jade Sea, that's very likely. From the time the Jade Wind was released up until the time Shiro dies, the Jade Wind is still in the background, somewhere in the Mists, the very force that corrupted both environments in the first place. Not only that, but Urgoz and Kanaxai are still corrupted. Defeating Urgoz/Kanaxai is only slightly after defeating Shiro in the official Lore, and the comment about life in Echovald and water on the Jade Sea are in the Eye of the North Manuscripts. In the official Lore, the events in Eye of the North take place a few years after Nightfall, which is a few years after Factions. So at the time of the comment, it had been several years since both the Jade Wind had been permanently sealed and Urgoz/Kanaxai had been defeated - plenty of time for the environment to start changing back.

We probably won't know completely until GW2, though. HOWEVER, only just a FEW YEARS after the events in Eye of the North takes place, the successor to Emperor Kisu (who was killed in the second-last mission of Factions, if you remember) completely KILLS OFF both the Kurzicks and the Luxons. He shuns all non-humans from Cantha, barricades the borders and shuts off all trade to the outside world. At the beginning of the GW2 Lore, nobody has been to Cantha from the mainland for a full generation.

So my best guess, whether it's in the first installment of GW2 or in a future campaign where you're probably "the first people to Cantha in a generation", you'll visit Echovald and the Jade Sea, at which point both environments will be uninhabited by human life, due to the genocide of both vassal factions, and back to their original Arboreal/Oceanic states, since it's been 250 years since they started changing back.

If you have any questions or if I left anything out, quote me.

Last edited by Might Of The Archer; Jul 22, 2008 at 04:34 AM // 04:34..

Obviously, the Kurzicks and Luxons were living in their respective environments before the Jade Wind. The Kurzicks would've had to carve their homes, cathedrals, and monuments into the WOOD. There's no way they could move in *after* the Jade Wind and carve all that stuff out of STONE. The Luxons sailed across the ocean and traded - looking up info for the Leviathans tells you that they had to be converted into land-mobile vehicles, proof that they were there long before. Hell, you can even look it up in the timeline of GW - first the Luxons became "vassal factions" of Cantha, then several years later the Kurzicks followed en suite, *then* many years later the Jade Wind happened. Way back then, the Kurzicks and Luxons were peaceful with each other.

Seeing how this thread wasn't about the Luxons, no need to mention them really. As for the Kurzicks, it is not only easily possible to carve things out of stone, but it also states in game that there are stone buildings from before the Jade Wind. I'll even quote for you my source for there being pre-Jade Wind stone buildings:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fort Aspenwood description

This fortress was designed by the famed Kurzick architect Lord Stein zu Heltzer more than five hundred years ago. One of the few remaining structures of true stone (which therefore dates from the time before the Jade Wind), Fort Aspenwood has long stood at a key strategic location along the Kurzick/Luxon border. The Kurzicks have managed to hold the fort against Luxon encroachment for centuries...but this arrangement may not last forever.

The bolded part is what I'm talking about.

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The Wardens were druids or holy men, as the Manuscripts say. The "Spirit of the Forest" that it mentions was Urgoz. Back then, the Wardens protected and helped the forest and Urgoz guided them. Obviously, the Luxon equivalent is Kanaxai, although I'm not sure as far as which group of foes would have been his "helpers". Anyways, when the Jade Wind happened, it turned Echovald to stone and the Jade Sea to jade - as you know. Whether it was from the Jade Wind itself or from their respective environments being ruined that corrupted Urgoz and Kanaxai we may never know, but either way, they were twisted mentally and physically, along with their servants. This is NOT like Kunnavang being corrupted - Kunnavang was directly possessed by Shiro to do his bidding, Urgoz and Kanaxai were corrupted for the two above reasons.

Where is your source for the "Spirit of the Forest" being Urgoz? I have stated somewhere in the thread how he was not the Spirit of the Forest, please try to prove me wrong as the other person tried. Also, there is no mention of Kanaxai being Urgoz's equivalent (which in turn means Kanaxai is the "Spirit of the Sea"). Urgoz and Kanaxai, for all we know, were not twisted physically. It's not even known if Kanaxai was twisted. Also, Kuunavang was not "possessed" but also corrupted. Whether by Shiro during the Factions timeline or from the Jade Wind is unknown.

Quote:

The Jade Wind was caused by a purely HUMAN affliction. There was no outside or supernatural force involved - only the power of Shiro being demonically released as the result of an unfortunate chain of events. As a result, Urgoz, Kanaxai, and their respective servants (the Wardens and the creatures of the sea) began to hate humans, for what they did to them, or for what they did to their environment, or both.

The Jade Wind was not purely human affliction. As stated in the Prima Guide for Factions (so I'm told, as I don't have it myself), Shiro absorbed magical essence from the emperor (as seen in the opening cinematic) which was a gift from Dwayna, according to what I've been told from what the Prima Guide says. In other words, the Warden's anger (not truly the creatures of the sea) is focused in the wrong direction.

Quote:

The Kurzicks and Luxons began warring only after the Jade Wind. They would have had no reason to beforehand. After the Jade Wind, resources would have OBVIOUSLY become scarce for both Factions - the forest was now stone, they couldn't grow crap, the sea was made of Jade, they couldn't sail places and trade with people. Not only that, but now both groups have lots of baddies to deal with. As a result, they would naturally try to best each other in a desperate struggle for resources.

The Kurzicks and Luxons have fought long before the Jade Wind. This I am sure of, but sadly I cannot find my source. I will try to find them later. And they would have reason before hand, the biggest reason would be territory, just like now. Resources are only wanted in the form of Amber and Jade, new resources that were made during the Jade Wind, in other words, the Jade Wind just increased hostilities. Also, I don't believe the Kurzicks grew anything in the first place, not much can be grown in a forest, and we have no evidence of farms. As for the Luxons, they still trade with people, they just changed their method of doing so.

Quote:

As far as life sprouting up in the Echovald and puddles appearing in the Jade Sea, that's very likely. From the time the Jade Wind was released up until the time Shiro dies, the Jade Wind is still in the background, somewhere in the Mists, the very force that corrupted both environments in the first place. Not only that, but Urgoz and Kanaxai are still corrupted. Defeating Urgoz/Kanaxai is only slightly after defeating Shiro in the official Lore, and the comment about life in Echovald and water on the Jade Sea are in the Eye of the North Manuscripts. In the official Lore, the events in Eye of the North take place a few years after Nightfall, which is a few years after Factions. So at the time of the comment, it had been several years since both the Jade Wind had been permanently sealed and Urgoz/Kanaxai had been defeated - plenty of time for the environment to start changing back.

this is the first whole paragraph I mostly agree with, the only thing I have problems with would be what I bolded. First, where is your source for the Jade Wind being in the Mists? The Wind stopped at the edge of the Echovald Forest/Jade Sea. If it didn't all of Tyria would have been wrecked by the Jade Wind, not just the two areas. For the two years, its Pre (2 years later) Prophecies/Factions (3 years later) Nightfall (1 year later) Eye of the North. Just a little reference for you. So the manuscripts are dated 4 years after Shiro's death. Just to be more specific.

Quote:

We probably won't know completely until GW2, though. HOWEVER, only just a FEW YEARS after the events in Eye of the North takes place, the successor to Emperor Kisu (who was killed in the second-last mission of Factions, if you remember) completely KILLS OFF both the Kurzicks and the Luxons. He shuns all non-humans from Cantha, barricades the borders and shuts off all trade to the outside world. At the beginning of the GW2 Lore, nobody has been to Cantha from the mainland for a full generation.

The time between Eye of the North and Usoku's reign is unknown. All we know is that Usoku is Kisu's son, and during the time of Factions, Kisu is 50 years old *looks younger then that though...* Also, he does not kill off the Kurzicks and Luxons, he merges them into the empire. Changed them from Vassals to an actual part of the empire.

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I'm a huge Lore freak, I know how it all went down...

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If you have any questions or if I left anything out, quote me.

What you really left out, is your sources for all of this. Half of the stuff I know to be wrong. You may be a lore fanatic like me and a few others, but please don't sound so sure of yourself. I'm sure I made some mistakes myself, but at least I don't say that what I said is 100% accurate. Also, if your such a lore fan, you should look into The Archivists Sanctum [Lore] .

First, Kanaxai isn't Urgoz's counterpart from the Jade Sea. His background is unclear, but he's basically a demon that got trapped in the Jade Sea. It's possible that there was some other form of binding that was disrupted by the Jade Wind that kept him bound while the sea was still liquid, or maybe he was just unlucky. Either way, he wasn't a previously benign spirit that was corrupted - he was a demon all along.

I dispute your claim that the Jade Wind was a purely human-caused event: we know Abaddon at least was stirring the pot. We'll probably never know if the power of the Jade Wind came purely from human sources, purely from Abaddon's power, or something in between, but while plenty of other races blame humanity alone (naga and the wardens, for instance), it's not clear that that is actually the case.

Finally, [SPOILER] Kisu wasn't killed in Factions - if you succeed in the mission you successfully rescue him only to have Shiro kill Togo to fuel his resurrection instead. All evidence indicates that Kisu lived out his normal span until his son came into power. Furthermore, he doesn't kill the Kurzicks and Luxons - he conquers them, which is an important difference - it's the nonhumans that he's trying to wipe out (and I'm guessing he isn't going to be successful). The Echovald and the Jade Sea will still be inhabited, it's just that they'll be back under the united Canthan flag... unless they're not. Two centuries is a long time, after all.