This thread is going round in circles and achieving absolutely nothing.
It's nothing but playing the 'blame game'.

Whilst it's important to have an understanding of why and how things happened surely people's time would be better spent trying to actually sort out
the mess and help construct positive policies that will enable Native Americans to take control of their own lives and develop as they see fit.

This thread is 25+ pages of finger pointing and passing the buck.

What needs to be done in the here and now?

Yes, before anything can be done in the here and now there has to be an understanding of the past. Too many people can't see that connection but I'm
glad that you do.

Willful denial of what happened in the past seems to be where we're stuck, which is why the conversation goes round in circles. Actually, the human
tendency to deny anything that might be uncomfortable to think about explains why the whole country is circling the drain. You'd think we lived by a
river in Egypt.

ETA: Sorry, I didn't answer your question. What can be done in the here and now. There are many people all over the country doing things, volunteering
time, sending donations and gifts, etc. to people in need. But the one that gripes me most is the fund set up to pay heating bills to the power
companies in SD. It just doesn't seem to be helping anyone and there is NO way to track whether or not donations paid directly to the electric
companies actually provide power to anyone since the company's books are not open to public scrutiny. They could pocket all those donations and no one
would be the wiser.

Same with the big charities. Send money for aid to Haiti or wherever and the money never reaches the people in need. Who pockets all that money?

You'd think, in this age of instant connections with others all over the world, that we'd be able to do some direct aid for things that matter to us
personally. Find a family or a local charity and donate. All anyone needs is some interest and a few key strokes on a search engine to find that
information.

Willful denial of what happened in the past seems to be where we're stuck, which is why the conversation goes round in circles.

Did I miss a post? I see no one denying what happened. We seem to be stuck more on what can be done.

Not denying that "something" happened, only that it was NOT the "worst", or the "numbers are wrong", or the title of the thread is wrong. But
there are repetitive claims that "It wasn't that many, they all died of disease before we got here and we weren't there to kill anybody." Well,
all that's true enough, we weren't there, but there are any number of posts denying it was "all that bad" or that it was "intentional" despite
government admissions that it was, in fact, intentional.

I added a little something to an earlier post about something that can be done although it will never be enough because we are ruled and robbed by the
same crooked politicians and corporations that continually thieve from the Indians.

They have to make themselves look relevant, that's all it is and their investigation will drag on for years with no resolution. The UN has never
brought justice or peace to anyone and it never will. All it ever did was usurp the member nation's sovereignty, including our own.

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Okay, look...

The United states has only existed since 1776, a little over 200 years. Europeans had been coming here since the early 1500's bringing with them
disease and war. If I had to venture an educated guess, I would have to say that the Spanish are responsible for more Native American deaths then any
one else. The Aztecs (Native Central Americans) were decimated by the Spaniards through the Spanish Conquest as well as the diseases brought from
Europe. This was almost 300 years BEFORE the United States even existed.

You also had France, England, Portugal, and the Netherlands (also Sweden and Russia to a lessor extent) all responsible to some degree for the
decimation of the Native American population.

This theory is flawed at its core as facts were obviously bent to fit an agenda.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Well, all that's true enough, we weren't there, but there are any number of posts denying it was "all that bad" or that it was "intentional"
despite government admissions that it was, in fact, intentional.

Again, did I miss some posts? I saw no one denying it was "all that bad". Only that the OP possibly overstated the numbers, which tends to be off
putting. Anytime something is exaggerated, it leaves room for people to deny (and rightfully so because the numbers are just wrong). No one denies
these action were atrocious, hence the atrocity. Atrocious behavior is atrocious behavior, no matter the numbers so there is no need to exaggerate. I
will refer to what I said in my first post. We detract from these atrocities by trying to compare them. It has become a contest. Who is the most
atrocious? Who can we assign the most blame?

This holiday coped after massacre implemented by white Puritans (Puritans - Hidden Jews is English, celebrating Saturday) in the village near
present-day town of Groton, in the state of Masachussets. On this day in 1637, the English Puritans - the first time they were able to cut out all the
700 Indians Peko, and their wives and children burnt in a barn. White surrounded at dawn and took all sleeping. Governor "Bay Colony" on the next
day declared this day as a holiday - "Happy Thanksgiving"

Well, all that's true enough, we weren't there, but there are any number of posts denying it was "all that bad" or that it was "intentional"
despite government admissions that it was, in fact, intentional.

Again, did I miss some posts? I saw no one denying it was "all that bad". Only that the OP possibly overstated the numbers, which tends to be off
putting. Anytime something is exaggerated, it leaves room for people to deny (and rightfully so because the numbers are just wrong). No one denies
these action were atrocious, hence the atrocity. Atrocious behavior is atrocious behavior, no matter the numbers so there is no need to exaggerate. I
will refer to what I said in my first post. We detract from these atrocities by trying to compare them. It has become a contest. Who is the most
atrocious? Who can we assign the most blame?

I agree with you up to a point. Wiki is not my preferred source for anything as its easily used to exploit and distort ideas and facts, especially
when the facts (numbers of dead, for instance) cannot be 100% qualified as fact.

As far as the Indian wars are concerned, it was what it was and downplaying what it was by comparing it with other atrocities is a problem, you're
right about that, I think its called a distraction and misdirection.

The words "not all that bad" were mine, granted, but that intent seems clear in many of the words written in this thread. That's just my reading of
the words and I could be wrong about the intentions. If so, mea culpa.

My concerns are born out of knowing how history is used to poison people's minds and justify many future abuses. You act as if American's have
never discussed the past wrongs. In this very thread people have stated how sorry they were those things happened, but who exactly in America is
responsible for it? Is it those whose decedents all came over with Columbus? Is it the English, French, and Spanish? Is it those who had the
majority of power hundreds of years ago? I cannot understand what it is we are supposed to do. This to me is nothing more than trying to make people
feel badly about a history they did not commit and to walk around saying mea culpa all the time. What exactly is your remedy since apologies and
admission of what happened is not good enough apparently? Is anyone asking the "natives" to apologize for their genocidal wars or is that only for
the British and such?

Past wrongs? How about current wrongs. For the Lakota ~ who are every bit as much American as you, and who are living on land that was "given" to
them by the federal government to "make up for" past atrocities, all the while being held under strict government control.

(3) Poverty

Annual median income is $2,600 – $3,500. Poverty affects 97% of Lakotans. Many families can’t afford essentials most people take for granted. In
winter, many use ovens for heat. Simple luxuries are unheard of. Life is hard, merciless, punishing, and unrelenting.

(4) Unemployment

It’s 80% or higher. Government corruption, cronyism, and indifference destroy normal living opportunities.

(5) Housing

In winter, elderly people die from hypothermia. They freeze to death for lack of heat. One-third of homes lack clean water and sewage. About 40% have
no electricity. About 60% of families have no telephone.

Another 60% of homes are infected with potentially fatal black molds. On average, 17 people reside in each household. Many have two to three rooms.
Some homes built for six to eight people have up to 30 in them.

Do you agree that any American citizen should live in these conditions TODAY? Read the whole article for pete's sake, this isn't about feeling a
little bit sorry for past atrocities, its about right now.

And if you're thinking about suggesting that they should just leave home for greener pastures like the ones you're living on, that's just another
one of those "indian giver" stories that aren't gifts to anyone but the takers. Who would reap the benefits if they just left their homes?

Well I guess there is at least one thing we CAN agree on, frazzle. I think what's currently being done is... well put plainly what's currently being
done isn't enough. The Federal government has a responsibility to these people. I don't think anyone in this thread denied what was done in the past
was bad, people are just denying personal responsibility for it, and rightfully so. But the federal government absolutely has a responsibility to look
after the welfare of this country's natives. But, once again, the american people have no power over the government. The system is broken and all
Americans are getting screwed over.

This whole debacle could have been avoided by not trying to paint American's as being the worst criminals of genocide in world history. But, I think
that the OP does think that of Americans. Wiki is shunned a lot, but you can read through it and do your own checks on the facts. Here is one set of
data:

Now, count me an uniformed and gullible if you want, but it looks like acts of genocide cover the globe and some might argue other accounts in other
countries trump what happened in America or by Americans and by extension colonists. So, is one more terrible than another? I am sure those killed
would beg to differ.

I will also add not as an excuse but the better weapons we build the more we can kill. I am positive more people have been killed by automobiles than
were ever killed by horse and buggy. If there was some madman riding about mowing people down, I bet they don't say, "Wow, thank god he didn't use a
wheel barrow!"

Nice one,
but....you avoided EVERY question I asked and refuse to be held accountable for your wild assumptions.
I don't blame you. You really put yourself out there and said a lot of things which made no sense.
No one TOLD you to do anything.
Care to address those points?

Well I guess there is at least one thing we CAN agree on, frazzle. I think what's currently being done is... well put plainly what's
currently being done isn't enough. The Federal government has a responsibility to these people. I don't think anyone in this thread denied what was
done in the past was bad, people are just denying personal responsibility for it, and rightfully so. But the federal government absolutely has a
responsibility to look after the welfare of this country's natives. But, once again, the american people have no power over the government. The
system is broken and all Americans are getting screwed over.

Whew, progress!!!

The reason people can justifiably feel no responsibility for what happened back in the day is because they/we were never informed of the truth of what
was being done or had been done, either to the American Indians or even to ourselves. That's exactly how we ended up with this broken system. NO ONE
TOLD US. And that didn't happen by accident, the powers that be all through history have deliberately lied to the people through our government
approved schooling and by everything media has been allowed/ordered/coerced to tell us. And that goes for our parents and grandparents no matter how
many greats you wish to add.

We have access to truth, many choose not to know it. We have plenty of power, we have no will to exert it.

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
I've already replied and made my peace, but I'd also like to add that these America is evil! threads are based on ignorance, hate, and to
finally put a term I created to use, a classic case of the Secular Blame Reaction Effect.

A psychological disposition, very basic and almost primal, in which someone blames most or all problems on a particular sect of group of people
(religions, races, genders, cultures, countries, etc).

Something many ATSers seem to be suffering from nowadays.

And many people in general.

Basically, its a fashion statement, and unfortunately, its fashionable to hate Americans nowadays. So, people like the OP jump on the bandwagon,
spread hateful disinformation, and sit back as people argue and debate over it almost as though its something worth talking about. Its a plea for
attention.

See my original post, and the video breaking down the statistics of international democide throughout recent history. ALL governments have slaughtered
millions of innocent people at some point or another.

I really don't want to derail this thread, or help contribute to it going round in circles......but in an effort for me to understand people's
reasoning I'm going to repeat a question I asked earlier in the thread which no-one has attempted to answer.
At what point did the colonists stop being colonists and become Americans because it's largely those self-same colonists who are being labelled
'European' who fought against Britain for American independence?

Sure many nations and people's were guilty parties to the mistreatment of Native Americans.
No one nation or people.
And disease was probably the single biggest cause of death, but there was no concerted effort to conduct some sort of biological warfare against
them.

And it's important to understand and acknowledge their mistreatment, but at least people are beginning to realise that the really important issue is
what can be done now?

No one person can do anything by themselves, but it's acts and deeds that count.

I know it's a cliché and a bit of a throw away statement, but people must strive to be the change they want to see.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
There were 50 million Natives living in what is now US territory. We decimated them. Ruthlessly. Without concern for their families, their cultures,
their human rights. Now there are less than 3 million. Lets do the math, 50 minus 3 equals 47. Millions that is. en.wikipedia.org...

We didn't even respect them enough to call them what they are, Americans. We called them "Indians" when the slaugther was going on, maybe because
"Indians" means that this is like from another planet, rather than human. We had known for centuries that they were not from India. In the same way
as NAZI Germany de-humanized the Jews, Americans de-humanized the Natives.

The NAZI's, Stalin and Mao each killed "only" about 20 million (excluding those who died from starvation caused by Mao's polcies). However, in
each of the three cases, it was only one tyrannical regime, essentially one person.

Here in the US, whole-sale slaughter of Native people went on for more than a century, incuding about 20 Presidents' administrations. And we, today,
celebrate those Presidents!

Once we had killed most of them, we shoved the rest into prisons, that we call "reservations".

As an American I am not happy to write this. But I do because it is the truth.

Yet, despite the staggering number, America gets a pass. It is glossed over, it had to be done. It wasn't out of hatred. Settlers were forced, they
had no choice but to "defend" themselves. Did the Natives need to be killed for the betterment of the world?

Americans committed the worst genocide in world history and to this day, not only are we not accepting the blame for it, we are not even accused of it
commonly. For some reason, everybody else in the world feels the same way, it is okay for 20 of our Presidents to collectively committ the worst
genocide in human history. It is okay that we cut off their scalp and be rewarded for it.

Astounding how stupid the whole world is collectively. We are smart individually but like a Zombie collectively. Can anybody explain this?

I'm glad to see that you've renounced your citizenship, donated all of your ill-gotten gains to the native Americans and made arrangements to move
back to Europe! Because if you hadn't - well, that would make you just a belly-aching hypocrite!

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
I've already replied and made my peace, but I'd also like to add that these America is evil! threads are based on ignorance, hate, and to
finally put a term I created to use, a classic case of the Secular Blame Reaction Effect.

A psychological disposition, very basic and almost primal, in which someone blames most or all problems on a particular sect of group of people
(religions, races, genders, cultures, countries, etc).

Something many ATSers seem to be suffering from nowadays.

And many people in general.

Basically, its a fashion statement, and unfortunately, its fashionable to hate Americans nowadays. So, people like the OP jump on the bandwagon,
spread hateful disinformation, and sit back as people argue and debate over it almost as though its something worth talking about. Its a plea for
attention.

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