I think what that person was trying to say was: "If you graduate in the top 10% of your class from St. Johns, no one will care, and you still won't find a job", which is just nonsense, and completely false.

I think what that person was trying to say was: "If you graduate in the top 10% of your class from St. Johns, no one will care, and you still won't find a job", which is just nonsense, and completely false.

You really believe that? What are you basing that on? Top 10% at SJU just means that you're unemployed but have a degree that reads summa cum laude.

I think what that person was trying to say was: "If you graduate in the top 10% of your class from St. Johns, no one will care, and you still won't find a job", which is just nonsense, and completely false.

You really believe that? What are you basing that on? Top 10% at SJU just means that you're unemployed but have a degree that reads summa cum laude.

I'm basing it on the fact that I know many people who went to SJU and didn't graduate in the top 10% and still got really high paying jobs in NYC. On top of that, about 10% of the graduating class gets employed at Biglaw firms. In addition, St. Johns has a pretty good alumni network in NYC. Many partners at the big firms in NYC went to SJU. Bottom line is, if you graduate order of the coif from SJU, you have a pretty damn good shot at getting a job (especially if you have a few connections, or grew up in the city). To say that top 10% at SJU=unemployment is complete and utter idiocy.

My friend. I've been practicing law since before you ever thought SJU was a good idea. I'll assume for a minute that you're referring to the 21 kids that "got biglaw" based on the law school transparency chart, in that it claims that 17 students landed jobs of 501 and more and 4 students landed jobs at firms of 251 to 500. First and foremost, 21 students placed in high paying firms is pretty miserable. But much like your mistaken assumption that one can be "order of the coif" - which does not exist at SJU, you are similarly mistaken that these "stats" mean that 21 students actually landed jobs at biglaw. A sizable number of those 21 are "staff attorneys" which are not associates, they are discovery monkeys that earn half (and sometimes less than half of what associates earn) and are relegated to electronic document review. Further, a good number of those 21 "winners" landed jobs at firms like Wilson Elser; Lewis Brisbois; Goldberg Segalla; etc. (each of which have more than 500 attorneys but are in no way shape or form really biglaw - they pay less than half of a biglaw salary).

So please, do not worry about my "spewing shit" - I'm not. You just don't know what you're talking about and frankly you sound like a fucking moron defending SJU.

My friend. I've been practicing law since before you ever thought SJU was a good idea. I'll assume for a minute that you're referring to the 21 kids that "got biglaw" based on the law school transparency chart, in that it claims that 17 students landed jobs of 501 and more and 4 students landed jobs at firms of 251 to 500. First and foremost, 21 students placed in high paying firms is pretty miserable. But much like your mistaken assumption that one can be "order of the coif" - which does not exist at SJU, you are similarly mistaken that these "stats" mean that 21 students actually landed jobs at biglaw. A sizable number of those 21 are "staff attorneys" which are not associates, they are discovery monkeys that earn half (and sometimes less than half of what associates earn) and are relegated to electronic document review. Further, a good number of those 21 "winners" landed jobs at firms like Wilson Elser; Lewis Brisbois; Goldberg Segalla; etc. (each of which have more than 500 attorneys but are in no way shape or form really biglaw - they pay less than half of a biglaw salary).

So please, do not worry about my "spewing shit" - I'm not. You just don't know what you're talking about and frankly you sound like a fucking moron defending SJU.

Honestly I don't see what the whole argument and big deal is over St. John's. If you wouldn't attend the school fine that is on you. However, why would you be trying to put someone else down for trying to make a name for themselves by at least going to school. At least they are trying to establish a career and not on the corner committing crimes and what not. And since you're a practicing attorney I am sure you have better things to do then argue about a prospective student choices about where to attend school or for that matter defending the particular school. I honestly don't see where people get this condescending, elitist, and superiority attitude courage from online to down play someones life choices that you don't even know from adam. If that person wants to go to a school fine. It is their life they are living not yours. And if you disagree with their choices there are a lot healthier ways to say so instead of trying to make them feel like an idiot for choosing a particular school. It's like I mentioned before at least they are trying to do something positive with their life. Just my two cents.

Last edited by ThePiedPiper on Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

My friend. I've been practicing law since before you ever thought SJU was a good idea. I'll assume for a minute that you're referring to the 21 kids that "got biglaw" based on the law school transparency chart, in that it claims that 17 students landed jobs of 501 and more and 4 students landed jobs at firms of 251 to 500. First and foremost, 21 students placed in high paying firms is pretty miserable. But much like your mistaken assumption that one can be "order of the coif" - which does not exist at SJU, you are similarly mistaken that these "stats" mean that 21 students actually landed jobs at biglaw. A sizable number of those 21 are "staff attorneys" which are not associates, they are discovery monkeys that earn half (and sometimes less than half of what associates earn) and are relegated to electronic document review. Further, a good number of those 21 "winners" landed jobs at firms like Wilson Elser; Lewis Brisbois; Goldberg Segalla; etc. (each of which have more than 500 attorneys but are in no way shape or form really biglaw - they pay less than half of a biglaw salary).

So please, do not worry about my "spewing shit" - I'm not. You just don't know what you're talking about and frankly you sound like a fucking moron defending SJU.

You sound like a bitter person that has something personal against SJU. Did their undergrad basketball team clobber yours or something? Someone from SJU bang your gf/SO? You made your point -- you don't think SJU is a good idea, which was unrelated to the topic of this thread. If you'd like a thread devoted to bashing SJU, make your own.

SparkyZZZ wrote:Yeah, making people jump through hoops/interviewing for anything sub-top 25 is ridiculous/bordering on insulting to the applicant.

Just one man's opinion.

+1000000000

And yes I am so TLS obsessed i'm reading about SJ lol - I truly hope in my heart of hearts that these lower teir, basically no employment schools either A. Have to start being honest about their employment, B. have a federally mandated tuition set to a level DIRECTLY PEOPORTIONAL to their prospects and rank - and/or C. Just get shut the f**k down. They are BS diploma mills that are quite literally the biggest set of rip offs in academia.

kris4842 wrote:Can someone explain to me why someone who has been practicing law for so many years is trolling on these boards? I think it's pretty sad!

He's not trolling. Look at the numbers objectively. Let's pretend it isn't a school that you really, really want to attend.

Non-discounted cost: $261,120 - that's over a quarter of a million dollars. You're looking at a monthly payment of $3000 for 10 years. Ouch.Employment score: 49.1% - This means that less than half of ALL students that graduated in 2012 were practicing lawyers 9 months after graduation.Large firm score - 9.6% - Less than 1 out of every 10 students who attend end up in the type of job that pays enough to service a $3000/month payment. I'll ignore the fact that a good fraction of them are at firms that don't even pay the market rate of $160,000 (the best you can expect from ANY law school is $160,000).Non-employed: 22.1% - Almost 1 in 4 graduates are TOTALLY WITHOUT INCOME even 9 months after graduation.

So a non-discounted cost of over a quarter million dollars for less than a coin flip's chance at working as any kind of an attorney, a less than 1 in 10 chance of getting a job that can even cover the loans with money left over for food and rent, and almost a 1 in 4 chance of being totally unemployed when those $3000/month payments kick in.

Even at a significant discount, that is objectively bad. The odds are against you.

You may be thinking... "I can make top 10%," but again, the odds are against you. It goes without saying that only 1 in 10 people can actually achieve that. The problem is, you can't expect to be one of them, no matter how hard you work. Statistically, you are most likely to land right in the middle of the class, around median. And we can see from above that a solid median student can expect to have either no job at all or to have a job that won't cover loan payments.

If you came to me with a quarter million dollars to invest, and I told you that I can only give you a less than 1/2 chance to get any money back to you, with a less than 1/10 chance to get you your original money back, and a smaller chance to give you even more back, would you take it? If you would, then boy do I have some business to do with you.

If you wouldn't, then WHY OH WHY would you go to this school?

Reasonable man is being reasonable. You aren't.

(After all this, you may be thinking "Bedsole, we didn't ask for your opinion. I came here to learn about SJU interviews!" You're right, you didn't ask. But if you were on a bridge looking for advice on how best to jump, I would probably answer by telling you that jumping was a bad idea, rather than advising you on the best way to do it.)

My friend. I've been practicing law since before you ever thought SJU was a good idea. I'll assume for a minute that you're referring to the 21 kids that "got biglaw" based on the law school transparency chart, in that it claims that 17 students landed jobs of 501 and more and 4 students landed jobs at firms of 251 to 500. First and foremost, 21 students placed in high paying firms is pretty miserable. But much like your mistaken assumption that one can be "order of the coif" - which does not exist at SJU, you are similarly mistaken that these "stats" mean that 21 students actually landed jobs at biglaw. A sizable number of those 21 are "staff attorneys" which are not associates, they are discovery monkeys that earn half (and sometimes less than half of what associates earn) and are relegated to electronic document review. Further, a good number of those 21 "winners" landed jobs at firms like Wilson Elser; Lewis Brisbois; Goldberg Segalla; etc. (each of which have more than 500 attorneys but are in no way shape or form really biglaw - they pay less than half of a biglaw salary).

So please, do not worry about my "spewing shit" - I'm not. You just don't know what you're talking about and frankly you sound like a fucking moron defending SJU.

Honestly I don't see what the whole argument and big deal is over St. John's. If you wouldn't attend the school fine that is on you. However, why would you be trying to put someone else down for trying to make a name for themselves by at least going to school. At least they are trying to establish a career and not on the corner committing crimes and what not. And since you're a practicing attorney I am sure you have better things to do then argue about a prospective student choices about where to attend school or for that matter defending the particular school. I honestly don't see where people get this condescending, elitist, and superiority attitude courage from online to down play someones life choices that you don't even know from adam. If that person wants to go to a school fine. It is their life they are living not yours. And if you disagree with their choices there are a lot healthier ways to say so instead of trying to make them feel like an idiot for choosing a particular school. It's like I mentioned before at least they are trying to do something positive with their life. Just my two cents.

Just because someone is trying to go to a TTT/TTTT instead of slangin' dope doesn't mean they should be patted on the back and told "Good job trying to make a name for yourself!" Come on dude.

Anyway, I honestly don't remember the point of this thread now. Was it to ask about video interviews? OP, there are a number of schools that do video interviews (Harvard, WUSTL, and Northwestern come to mind). If you do a search you can probably find threads dedicated to those schools' interview process and extrapolate from there.

kris4842 wrote:Can someone explain to me why someone who has been practicing law for so many years is trolling on these boards? I think it's pretty sad!

He's not trolling. Look at the numbers objectively. Let's pretend it isn't a school that you really, really want to attend.

Non-discounted cost: $261,120 - that's over a quarter of a million dollars. You're looking at a monthly payment of $3000 for 10 years. Ouch.Employment score: 49.1% - This means that less than half of ALL students that graduated in 2012 were practicing lawyers 9 months after graduation.Large firm score - 9.6% - Less than 1 out of every 10 students who attend end up in the type of job that pays enough to service a $3000/month payment. I'll ignore the fact that a good fraction of them are at firms that don't even pay the market rate of $160,000 (the best you can expect from ANY law school is $160,000).Non-employed: 22.1% - Almost 1 in 4 graduates are TOTALLY WITHOUT INCOME even 9 months after graduation.

So a non-discounted cost of over a quarter million dollars for less than a coin flip's chance at working as any kind of an attorney, a less than 1 in 10 chance of getting a job that can even cover the loans with money left over for food and rent, and almost a 1 in 4 chance of being totally unemployed when those $3000/month payments kick in.

Even at a significant discount, that is objectively bad. The odds are against you.

You may be thinking... "I can make top 10%," but again, the odds are against you. It goes without saying that only 1 in 10 people can actually achieve that. The problem is, you can't expect to be one of them, no matter how hard you work. Statistically, you are most likely to land right in the middle of the class, around median. And we can see from above that a solid median student can expect to have either no job at all or to have a job that won't cover loan payments.

If you came to me with a quarter million dollars to invest, and I told you that I can only give you a less than 1/2 chance to get any money back to you, with a less than 1/10 chance to get you your original money back, and a smaller chance to give you even more back, would you take it? If you would, then boy do I have some business to do with you.

If you wouldn't, then WHY OH WHY would you go to this school?

Reasonable man is being reasonable. You aren't.

(After all this, you may be thinking "Bedsole, we didn't ask for your opinion. I came here to learn about SJU interviews!" You're right, you didn't ask. But if you were on a bridge looking for advice on how best to jump, I would probably answer by telling you that jumping was a bad idea, rather than advising you on the best way to do it.)

But at least you have the common decency to actually break down the risk without actually making someone feel like and idiot or resort to childish antics such as name calling. I mean are we not all grown men and women on this site. What you just did was properly give advice in a professional manner. Not downgrade someone by name calling. You listed the possible risk of taking on such a task.

Last edited by ThePiedPiper on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

They are "top 10" in the country for bankruptcy or some $hit. They said that their LLM in Bankruptcy is the top one in the country and feeds into big firms. lol

As a prospective bankruptcy lawyer (corporate hopefully, though not against consumer), I read this and checked it out. Then I said Hell no. I would rather go to my local regional with a 45% employment rate and duke it out there, rather than try and go into one of the most saturated legal markets in the country with a lower than average degree. I think even going to American may be better than SJU, because atleast you may get lucky and land in a federal job.

But if the person who wants to go to St. Johns believe it is the best option for them, so be it. Good luck, and I actually mean it

Can you explain to me why a practicing attorney is trolling on these boards? Why in the world do you care? Like come on. Second of all there are people like me who want to go to St Johns very badly so we do not need negativity from someone who doesn't like the school. obviously you are not successful or you would not have all this free time to put all of us and this school down. Go do something!

BigZuck that was not my argument. I actually wasn't arguing a point. All I was saying if you claim to be this working professional there are better ways to address people then to resort to childish antics as to name call and put someone down based off their own personal decision. Plus who cares where OP or anyone is applying. Its not like you know him personally. All I was saying was at least he/she was trying to do something positive as like going to school instead of ending up on the 10 o'clock news. Now with that being said I am done because I was not on here to argue with someone I don't know. I am here to support people regardless of their decision on where to pursue an education. The fact of the reality is not everyone has HYS or the rest of the T 14 numbers. But I will commend someone who is doing something positive with their life instead of committing crimes. Plus you don't know if this person has personal reasons for even considering St. John's. There is a method behind everyone's madness. So before people pre judge. They should know all the facts. With that being said OP do what you feel is best for you.

ThePiedPiper wrote:BigZuck that was not my argument. I actually wasn't arguing a point. All I was saying if you claim to be this working professional there are better ways to address people then to resort to childish antics as to name call and put someone down based off their own personal decision. Plus who cares where OP or anyone is applying. Its not like you know him personally. All I was saying was at least he/she was trying to do something positive as like going to school instead of ending up on the 10 o'clock news. Now with that being said I am done because I was not on here to argue with someone I don't know. I am here to support people regardless of their decision on where to pursue an education. The fact of the reality is not everyone has HYS or the rest of the T 14 numbers. But I will commend someone who is doing something positive with their life instead of committing crimes. Plus you don't know if this person has personal reasons for even considering St. John's. There is a method behind everyone's madness. So before people pre judge. They should know all the facts. With that being said OP do what you feel is best for you.

This plus avatar

As for the other poster saying we don't need negativity:

Look- TLS provides people with a healthy dose of reality. The fact that there are so many horrible schools that prey on unsuspecting victims and steals their federally granted student loan money and leaves them with nothing to show for it means that a lot of the time when people talk about those schools, they are going to say things that are pretty negative. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Get mad at the predators running these rackets, not the people pointing out that they are rackets.

Also, if all you want is sunshine and rainbows blown up your butt, go talk to your aunt about how you got in to law school. She'll be more than happy to tell you how cool and smart you are. Don't come here and ask for honest and objective advice regarding schools that are, honestly, objectively bad and expect people to hide the truth from you just to make you feel good.

Anyway, this is all way off track. If someone has a guaranteed job and the school is free and they basically just need that piece of paper then going to a school like Saint Johns is fine. It's just not a good choice when you take out a lot of debt and have to rely on the school's placement ability to get you a job that can pay off that debt.

ThePiedPiper wrote:BigZuck that was not my argument. I actually wasn't arguing a point. All I was saying if you claim to be this working professional there are better ways to address people then to resort to childish antics as to name call and put someone down based off their own personal decision. Plus who cares where OP or anyone is applying. Its not like you know him personally. All I was saying was at least he/she was trying to do something positive as like going to school instead of ending up on the 10 o'clock news. Now with that being said I am done because I was not on here to argue with someone I don't know. I am here to support people regardless of their decision on where to pursue an education. The fact of the reality is not everyone has HYS or the rest of the T 14 numbers. But I will commend someone who is doing something positive with their life instead of committing crimes. Plus you don't know if this person has personal reasons for even considering St. John's. There is a method behind everyone's madness. So before people pre judge. They should know all the facts. With that being said OP do what you feel is best for you.

This plus avatar

Yes but no one asked anyone advice on this school! The op topic was about the interview so leave your negative comments in a thread that is for your opinion of the school. Thank you.

As for the other poster saying we don't need negativity:

Look- TLS provides people with a healthy dose of reality. The fact that there are so many horrible schools that prey on unsuspecting victims and steals their federally granted student loan money and leaves them with nothing to show for it means that a lot of the time when people talk about those schools, they are going to say things that are pretty negative. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Get mad at the predators running these rackets, not the people pointing out that they are rackets.

Also, if all you want is sunshine and rainbows blown up your butt, go talk to your aunt about how you got in to law school. She'll be more than happy to tell you how cool and smart you are. Don't come here and ask for honest and objective advice regarding schools that are, honestly, objectively bad and expect people to hide the truth from you just to make you feel good.

Anyway, this is all way off track. If someone has a guaranteed job and the school is free and they basically just need that piece of paper then going to a school like Saint Johns is fine. It's just not a good choice when you take out a lot of debt and have to rely on the school's placement ability to get you a job that can pay off that debt.

Kris- what is wrong with you? I gave advice that was precisely to the point of the OP's question, called out a poster for their silliness, and broke down exactly what is wrong with the "please don't be mean and tell me something I don't want to hear" camp. And I did so in the span of like 2 posts! That was a pretty phenomonal job of posting if you ask me, forgive me if I don't take your recommendation to heart.

kris4842 wrote:Can you explain to me why a practicing attorney is trolling on these boards? Why in the world do you care? Like come on. Second of all there are people like me who want to go to St Johns very badly so we do not need negativity from someone who doesn't like the school. obviously you are not successful or you would not have all this free time to put all of us and this school down. Go do something!

If I recall correctly, reasonable man went to a NYC TTT (maybe St. John's) and he is one of the lucky few who got a good outcome. He saw most of his class fail at being an attorney. He is probably the most qualified dude on these boards to tell you not to go. Quit being a petulant child and listen to the merit of what he is saying.

This is a board that now actually has an area locked for attorney conversation so the idea that it's an embarrassment to be posting here after law school is sort of ridiculous. And I suppose that I could hide out in the attorney only section, but I don't really think that's necessary either. Non attorneys are worth talking to as well.

I graduated from an uber TTTT that makes SJU look like Fordham or even a BC by comparison. I graduated in 08' and watched as almost all of my graduating class floundered trying to find jobs. I know first hand what law schools like SJU promise and what they deliver. I have nothing against the school - I even gave an SJU kid her start a few years ago and she is now in a niche practice at a nice little firm. She was top 5%, St Thomas Moore scholar and had no offers from OCI like almost her entire class. So she came to work for me, learned and is doing really well. No one and I mean no one, save a few people who were connected beforehand got true big law from her class. None.

The best result from SJU is finding a good small to mid sized firm that will pay you 50 to 60k to start. That's the best result and not the experience of most grads from SJU and it's peer schools. The typical result is 45k to 55k working in a small firm doing personal injury and other small time practices. If that's your goal (or rather - you're fine with this result) then SJU is a good call. But if you think you're going to go there and have a real strong shot at a big law or even a mid law firm, you're mistaking. You may well get that, but you, like me, will me one of the few lucky ones.

At my current firm I do not believe there are any SJU associates and we have more than 100 lawyers. It's not a "bad" school, it's just a tremendous risk. And if you are interviewing, I'm guessing you are paying damn near sticker. That's a lot of money for a seriously questionable investment.

My friend. I've been practicing law since before you ever thought SJU was a good idea. I'll assume for a minute that you're referring to the 21 kids that "got biglaw" based on the law school transparency chart, in that it claims that 17 students landed jobs of 501 and more and 4 students landed jobs at firms of 251 to 500. First and foremost, 21 students placed in high paying firms is pretty miserable. But much like your mistaken assumption that one can be "order of the coif" - which does not exist at SJU, you are similarly mistaken that these "stats" mean that 21 students actually landed jobs at biglaw. A sizable number of those 21 are "staff attorneys" which are not associates, they are discovery monkeys that earn half (and sometimes less than half of what associates earn) and are relegated to electronic document review. Further, a good number of those 21 "winners" landed jobs at firms like Wilson Elser; Lewis Brisbois; Goldberg Segalla; etc. (each of which have more than 500 attorneys but are in no way shape or form really biglaw - they pay less than half of a biglaw salary).

So please, do not worry about my "spewing shit" - I'm not. You just don't know what you're talking about and frankly you sound like a fucking moron defending SJU.

Wow! You're a lawyer? Really? You're a lawyer who cannot defend his statements then. You said that SJU=unemployment. Now you're attacking the type of employment. You are way off here bro. WTF are you talking about!? All I said is that you have a good shot at getting a job if you're the top 10% at SJU. My cousin went there and is of counsel at DLA Piper, and I think he will be made partner soon, and he did not graduate in the top 10%, and every single one of his friends is employed. Listen, I never said the school was great, and I never said that I'm going to go there. I simply said your statement that SJU means you will be unemployed even if you graduate from the top 10% of your class is just wrong. It is a foolish blanket statement, and it is not true. If someone wants to go to SJU why do you have to put them down? Read the topic of the thread, and think about it for a while. Maybe it will sink in that you are way off topic. You're even off topic from your own topic. Just stop. You're making lawyers look bad.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG7LjVCj50Y

BigZuck wrote:Kris- what is wrong with you? I gave advice that was precisely to the point of the OP's question, called out a poster for their silliness, and broke down exactly what is wrong with the "please don't be mean and tell me something I don't want to hear" camp. And I did so in the span of like 2 posts! That was a pretty phenomonal job of posting if you ask me, forgive me if I don't take your recommendation to heart.