Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I am so upset guys. I don't know how many of you are following the current events, but I got so shocked to read what those stupid Danish people have done lately. Let me recap everything here. First they start publishing idiotic strips insulting Mohammed and Islam (this was in September I think, and it was then followed by other countries such as Norway and France), then they repropose the strips just a few days ago, and the mess begins.

Of course this created lots of problems down in Muslimland, and they started burning Danish flags, being totally offended about how those people insulted their prophet (and they are even right in being upset!) I agree with saying that this is a little extremist, but definitely Danish journalists should have never published those strips. So lately they have been debating on what to do next. Their prime minister (another asshole) decided to defend the journalist, saying that they had the right to publish what they wanted (calling it right of free speech), and he refused to apologize for the misfact.

But today in the newspapers the worst possible thing: the Danish people started burning the Islam's sacred book, and said to all the Muslims that live there that if they don't like how things are done, they can just leave. I mean, how can you be more stupid?! That's really looking for trouble. And at a few days from the Olympic Games even, so that if possible Italy will be prey of terrorists because of Denmark.

What I am really praying for now is:a) Denmark will be forbidden to participate to the Olympic Games (I think that our national security is at stake, and it is more important to defend our citizens than let those assholes participate to the games.)b) Denmark will be obliged to apologize, or it will be kicked out of EUc) Denmark will be obliged to apologize, or the rest of Europe will place an embargo on them, basically saying to fuck off and kicking it out of Euro.

I know that probably none of them will happen, even though I still pray for the point A. But I do think that Europe should dissociate totally from Denmark. It must be clear that they did that, not us, that they did not apologize, and that we do have nothing to do with them.

Here I will give you some link from CNN so that you can read this news for yourself. Really, I am totally pissed and disgusted. I have never thought that some European State could have done what they did, and I think that they should definitely apologize, because they are not worthy to be part of the European Union if they do not.

PS. I don't know if from there you'll also find a link to the most recent facts (the burning of the Koran), because it was on the Italian newspapers today, so I think it happened yesterday, and I don't know if CNN has already posted it.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I do see both perspectives here, but i must say it does seem a bit of an over-reaction when you consider simpsons episodes with homer pretending to be Ganesh and so many cartoons depicting Jesus and God in many different ways...

people have the right to express themselves, but likewise people have a right to complain about disliking this expression. but abusing an entire nation or religion for the beliefs of a few just seems stupid to me.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I certainly agree with you, Mel, but I think that this is not really free speech. I mean, free speech would be giving your opinion (even an impopular one) about something, and not just merely producing stupid strips that offend a religion. I have certainly seen several strips on the Pope, and he's the first one to laugh about them, but I have never heard of strips being insulting towards Jesus or God. Let's say that their "free speech" thing could cover their butts, but that shouldn't really be the the correct way to exercitate their right in free speech.

Secondly, another good point was that it was totally stupid and irresponsible to bring up something like that with all the problems Europe already has with the Middle East. It was an irresponsible act, and they should apologize and make up for what they have done. They should know by now what the Muslims are like. They should know well enough that they are ready to go there and blow themselves up in the name of Allah. Their act was irresponsible towards their nation to begin with, and towards the whole Europe too. I am afraid we'll have to pay the expenses now, all of us, for something that only one or two states have done.

And doing so at a few days from the Olympic Games was even more stupid, because it just means to give a reason to the terrorists to come here and blow themselves up. And I am afraid they will, unless Denmark apologizes, or unless Italy manages to refuse the Danish athletes to the Olympic Games.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Europe as a whole is extremely secular. Reserach has shown that roughly 50% of its population is atheist, that many more are practical atheists, and that the number of theistic Europeans is declining steadily. I honestly don't believe the hostility towards Islam, or religion in general, is characteristically Danish. I believe it was in France (correct me if I'm wrong) that a cartoon was published of Jesus with an erect member wearing a condom. Other such instances are easy to find throughout the continent.

What makes the actions of the Danish media so utterly mindless is that their work inflames not just the radicals and extremists--the ones who will respond violently--but also the moderate Muslims, the more peacful; coincidentally, the one's living in and immigrating into Europe. This insults all of them, and not just in the deep Middle-East--it is considered blasphemy and idolatry by nearly any muslim to depict their prophet in physical form. Much less a physical charicature.

The Danish media is inflaming the muslims that are slowly and steadily moving into their continent. What is so backwards about that is that these musilms should be the ones from which they ought to be seeking the most help. It is from the non-extremists living in Europe that Europeans should seek the strongest activism against Islamic fundamentalism. Depicting sarcastically an important religious figure of the culture that most hates them is a form of political suicide, and only damages the western effort in the war on terror. Muslims hate us precisely because our cultures (I include America) profess values that are utterly opposite of their own. And, as we see here, our opposition accretes itself into forms of open hostility as well.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

While I agree with you that the Danish papers made a less than intelligent decision in printing the cartoon, that does not mean that the leader of the country has any right/obligation to apologize on behalf of private citizens of his country. If the press were run by the state, that would be a different situation, though it would also nullify the free speech argument.

What I am really praying for now is:a) Denmark will be forbidden to participate to the Olympic Games (I think that our national security is at stake, and it is more important to defend our citizens than let those assholes participate to the games.)b) Denmark will be obliged to apologize, or it will be kicked out of EUc) Denmark will be obliged to apologize, or the rest of Europe will place an embargo on them, basically saying to fuck off and kicking it out of Euro.

As for this, it would be punishing the Danish government as well as the majority of its people for the mistake of a small contingent. Much like people have done to followers of Islam, applying the feelings they should have toward fundamentalists to all of them, resulting in more turmoil between the cultures and breeding more fundamentalists by giving credence to the claims that the west is the enemy of Islam.

First they start publishing idiotic strips insulting Mohammed and Islam (this was in September I think, and it was then followed by other countries such as Norway and France)

It was probably not intentional to forego mentioning this, but I felt it prudent to add that Italian and German newspapers also reprinted the strip.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

First they start publishing idiotic strips insulting Mohammed and Islam (this was in September I think, and it was then followed by other countries such as Norway and France)

It was probably not intentional to forego mentioning this, but I felt it prudent to add that Italian and German newspapers also reprinted the strip.

This is partially wrong actually. All the newspapers I have seen (Italian ones of course) with the strips were condemning them, and their authors. Italy has also expressed itself in favor of the Muslims through our President, our Prime Minister, our Internship (ahem spelling here?) Minister, and our Defense Minister. Everybody was condemning those who stood for the strips. (And in fact the Muslims want a fatva against the Danish and the Norwish journalists, surely not against the Italians who simply reported the strips as information against the two incriminated nations).

Right yesterday on La Stampa there were a few long articles describing the worse and worse situation in Denmark. Now it seems that their products are boicotted (and I can certainly understand that), and the workers say that they are not worried, because if the companies will have to fire somebody, it will be the "dirty Muslims".

On the TV, in the news, they reported an interview with some "normal" ladies drinking tea in one of those bars around there, and they were saying that the Muslims have to go if they don't like freedom of speech. So, I don't think that the Danish are so innocent as you are depicting them.

Also, I know that the press is not run by the state of course, but I do believe that if they make a mistake that can offend other nations, then they should be obliged to apologize by the government, or the government itself should apologize for them. Failing to do so just means blowing this even more out of proportion. Like I said, we all know the Muslims; it is blasphemy to do what the Danish have done, and it is just a reason more to aggravate the situation both in the Middle East, and in the European States with the highest numbers of Muslims (and in Denmark, on a population of 5 millions of inhabitants, 200.000 are Muslims).

Also, to reply to Echelion:

Muslims hate us precisely because our cultures (I include America) profess values that are utterly opposite of their own. And, as we see here, our opposition accretes itself into forms of open hostility as well.

I disagree with you on that. They do not hate us because of our culture. They hate us because of what we have done to them. Not only back then when we went to colonize and bring our religion in their territories. But now. America has had (like UK) an imperialistic and expansionistic policy towards the Middle East. Instead of leaving them alone, we (because Europe is partially responsible for this, for not having managed to keep America and United Kingdom to do so) have gone to their home, and we took away their lands.

For what? For Israel. The winners of WW2 had the brilliant idea of creating a strip of land for all the Jews who had been prosecuted by Hitler, and look where they choose it? Right there, where the Muslims had been living for centuries. Now, do you think they appreciated this? I think not. I think that if someone came to Italy and said "now this part of Italy is not Italy anymore, because there is the need of having some land for these people here", do you think I wouldn't fight for my country? Why didn't they cut off a piece of America or United Kingdom for the Jews to live, and make their own nation? You could tell me that it's because Jerusalem is in the Middle East, but I think that's an easy and naive answer.

The Americans helped Israel, they helped Sharon, the nazi. And the Jews raised a nice wall to divide them from the Muslims. Not only, they keep saying that the space they have is not enough, and they threaten the Muslims with their nukes. And where did they get the nukes from? America of course, Bush. Now, a Muslim living side to side with a Jew has about 10 dollars a day to live, a Jew has about 100 (if not more).

You know, I would too hate America if they started to do such a thing here in Italy. If for example they started giving money to France, so that France decided to enlarge its territory (it's utopic, because we are all part of a whole single nation now, but I hope you get my point). So, Echelion, they do not hate us because of our culture, but because of us going to war with them, and helping their enemies to fight and win the battles. And precisely, they do not hate Europe, but they do hate America, and Bush in particular. I can't say I disagree with them. Then of course, they do have a bad way to demonstrate their rage towards us, but this is what their culture dictates to them.

I cannot say I am not scared. I can't say I am not the least worried, but I know that as long as we respect them, they won't harm us. America did not respect them to begin with, and therefore they got what they "deserved" (not that they deserved that in my opinion, but to the eyes of a Muslim that was the right punishment).

So while I don't like them very much, and while I do think that those people are scary, and while I think that they do not treat their women well, and they don't grant the liberty that our constitutions grant, I cannot say I don't understand why they act like this. And Denmark is now digging up its hole.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

This is partially wrong actually. All the newspapers I have seen (Italian ones of course) with the strips were condemning them, and their authors. Italy has also expressed itself in favor of the Muslims through our President, our Prime Minister,

Libero and La Padania re-printed the cartoons last Friday. Funny enough, La Padania is the mouthpiece of the right-wing Lega Nord which is part of prime minister Berlusconi's government.

Some Italian minor facts :P

This is partially wrong actually. All the newspapers I have seen (Italian ones of course) with the strips were condemning them, and their authors. Italy has also expressed itself in favor of the Muslims through our President, our Prime Minister,

Libero and La Padania re-printed the cartoons last Friday. Funny enough, La Padania is the mouthpiece of the right-wing Lega Nord which is part of prime minister Berlusconi's government.

Well, first of all, I want to point out how those two "newspapers" are not real newspapers. I mean, not newspapers which have the right to be called that. In other words, take a few pot heads who don't even know exactly how to write in their mothertongue, put them in front of a computer (provided they can understand where to switch it on), and you'll have that kind of journalists.

Secondly, La Padania is not really the mouthpiece of Berlusconi. Actually, Lega is against several things made by Forza Italia and viceversa. I know you all are not very much into Italian politics, and me either for that matter. The only thing I know is that if the left wing of the Parliament (so Prodi, Rutelli and all those shit heads) it is a real tragedy :P

Also, Berlusconi didn't really need the votes of Lega Nord to win the past elections. But Lega alone wouldn't have had enough votes to have representatives in the Parliament. So they teamed together. It's true: this way Berlusconi had more votes and had a higher number of representatives on his side. However, Berlusconi and Bossi (and other "important" members of the Lega party) had their good fair share of dissense.

To those who think I am pro Berlusconi, I say: actually I am pro Fini :P He is less moderate than Berlusconi, yet his party is allied to Berlusconi's. Mainly I am happy with anybody who is not belonging to the left party. The communists (or those who like to call themselves that, but are not real communists) have already destroyed Italy more than once, and as long as my vote can help keeping them out from power, it will always be addressed to the right wing of the Parliament.

Turin is red unfortunately. The past elections we couldn't prevent it, and now we're paying the consequences of it, because our Mayor is someone who doesn't even know where he is turned. He made several mistakes with the Olympic Games, and we are likely to be laughed at by the other nations. I certainly hope that the next elections we'll be able to change things around.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Also, I know that the press is not run by the state of course, but I do believe that if they make a mistake that can offend other nations, then they should be obliged to apologize by the government, or the government itself should apologize for them.

If the government were to force them to apologize or apologize on the behalf of them, it would be result in a form of government press control. I do not feel this is the responsibility or place of the government in a free society. Individuals/Organizations should be held responsible for their own actions, and the government should not have to tell the world that the entity apologizes for an action as it is quite likely not accurate. As for the government try to oblige them to apologize, this seems to me that you are saying the government should treaten with some sort of punishment if they do not act in a way that the government sees as acceptable. And that is a slippery slope to follow.

They do not hate us because of our culture. They hate us because of what we have done to them.

While the latter half of this statement is partially true, the former IMO is not. To my understanding, their have been many references over the years by Islamic clerics saying that westerners are trying to pollute Islamic culture with their ideologies which are in contradiction with the teachings of the Koran.

For what? For Israel. Why didn't they cut off a piece of America or United Kingdom for the Jews to live, and make their own nation? ... You could tell me that it's because Jerusalem is in the Middle East, but I think that's an easy and naive answer.

The reason that Palestine was chosen for the site of the Jewish state had a multitude of reasons behind it. One of those reasons was that Jerusalem happened to be in Palestine, and according to Jewish beliefs, Jerusalem is a city given to them by God himself. Another reason is the Palestine was a British Colony in the area, not an independent arab nation, so it was not taking away land that the Arab nations had any right to.

So while I don't like them very much, and while I do think that those people are scary, and while I think that they do not treat their women well, and they don't grant the liberty that our constitutions grant, I cannot say I don't understand why they act like this. America did not respect them to begin with, and therefore they got what they "deserved" (not that they deserved that in my opinion, but to the eyes of a Muslim that was the right punishment).

This paragraph as well as other statements you have made throughout your posts do not sit well with me. The reason for this is that when I read them. it seems like you are referring to Muslims as a whole, and not just the extremists/fundamentalists who hold views that are dangerous. This could be a misunderstanding on my part, but that is how it sounds.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Well, I disagree. Let me just say, I didnt read any of the other replies, because well, frankly I dont have the time.

If you are musilm or easily offended I suggest stopping here!

It's about time that something is said about this radical religion of Islam which is turning the world upside down. I myself have not seem the cartoons, yet, I can only imagine the thruth which rings from within their humorosity.

Honestly, how can you defend a perverted/demented radical who saw hullicinations, drank camels piss and married a 9 year old?

Only this a religion such as this exepects to be tolerated by the whole world, all the while it is the most filthy, intolerant and destructive of them all. No other religion demands that everyone abides by its strictures and avoid words and deeds that one might find upsetting or offensive. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormons: They don't lash out in violence when their religious sensibilities are offended. They certainly don't expect their beliefs to be immune from criticism, mockery, or dissent.

Every relgion except Islam, and frankly, I'm tired of its bullcrap.

Only with Islam could anything so mild trigger a reaction so isane (riots, death threats, kidnappings, flag-burnings). To me this just speaks volumes about the gap that separates the values of the civilized world from those in much of the Islamic world.

Freedom of the press, the marketplace of ideas, free trade, womens rights, animal rights, the ability to disagree with what you say while firmly defending your right to say it: Islam knows none of this. And if the jihadis get their way, such freedoms we take for granted will be discarded and replaced with the hate and intolerant propaganda of the Koran and Hadith.

Even if the cartoons were slander, which they werent, they still have the right to be said.

Muslims have suffered no wrong; Muslims have inflicted the wrong.

I'm sure everyone will disagree with me, especially my European counterparts, but dammit, I just had to say it. Having a already terrible day just made it that much easier.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Honestly, how can you defend a perverted/demented radical who saw hullicinations, drank camels piss and married a 9 year old?

Well, i dont think you defend the radicals. You defend the innocent, rational people who happen to be of the same race/religion.

I believe that statement was not about current followers of the faith, but about a person of historical significance, perhaps the Prophet Mohammed himself, though I cannot verify this since I know little about his life.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I've been a part of Netalive for quite some time now and this is what I love about Netalive. I enjoy these types of discussions, I believe they represent the unique views we all share on this board. Some of us share different views, yet we as a whole still respect the opinions of others.

(GASP) Talking about religion. I remember being taught during years of continuous sales training that the three things to stay away from during conversation is religion, marriage, and politics. Those were three issues most people were sensitive about and could easily be insulted over. Well, since this post is lively, I am going to join this party, so let’s get the shin-dig started!!

For the past few years I've had a bone stuck in my throat for any extremist group, let alone Islamic/Muslims. I understand I may receive flak for my statements, oh well that is life. I cannot understand why peace eludes the human race. Wait, yes I can. Religious extremist groups ladies and gentlemen, religious extremist groups.

I will say this right now. I feel no pity for the Muslim/Islamic practice. Why? Simple, where are they when the Islamic or Muslim extremist groups hit? In my opinion and my opinion may very well be wrong, yet it is my opinion; the Muslim/Islamic groups are like soap opera stars or high school drama queens. They wait for something small(cartoon) and yes this is ridiculously small, and then all of a sudden the Muslim/Islamic extremist group come out of the woodwork with another excuse to blow themselves up and kill innocent human beings. Where are the average wholesome Muslims when these extremists use the Muslim or Islamic name to practice their terror? Where are the quality practicing Muslim LEADERS at when these extremists tarnish their religion with terror? Are they "terror-ified" to stand up and denounce these idiots?

Let me say this. If Christians, Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Quakers, etc, etc, threw temper tantrums every time a journalist, cartoon, or comedian poked fun at their religion, we as a whole would have been annihilated a thousand times over already. This is non sense at its finest right here, ignorance at its bliss. "Oh someone poked fun at my religion so I am going to KILL someone else"! Well that is what they are doing right now. Ladies and gentlemen, that is what these Muslim extremist groups have been doing for quite some time. I'll ask this again. Why can’t we see any of these wholesome regular like you and I Muslims stand up and say anything? Well, I'll take that back, some of the Muslims in Denmark believe this isn’t something to get worked up about. Thank you, thank you for those few who see it that way. Shame on every other practicing Muslim/Islamic human being who will cry a river over a cartoon yet won't say a SINGLE WORD when Muslim/Islamic extremists kill hundreds or thousands of individuals around the world on a weekly basis. Shame on those who are silenced then.

This is what I hate about the public as a whole. We get "Pat Robertson" on someone. This is why we will fail. We fail because we form gangs, I mean RELIGIONS and as a result, those members push away anyone else who is not involved with their religion or who practices another religion. Having a belief joins people, having a religion pushes people away. Most religions share the same type of simple steps in being a better person, yet we still ignore those steps and proceed to ridicule, prosecute, mane, or even kill someone because they have a different religion. The word I’m looking for here is hum hum……over righteousness. These extremist groups walk around like mini gods judging who should live and who should die.

In the end, it’s funny how a cartoon involving Muhammad and a bomb can destroy everything and bring these individuals back to ignorant simpletons, running around on a path of destruction. Funny how the cartoonists were asked to draw Muhammad as they saw him and someone created what they felt Muhammad and the Muslims were all about. Instead of acting stupid like they are now, these Muslims should stand up and say we need to educate. Amazing how we as a whole have grown more and more sensitive about anything and everything. GROW UP. What's with some people and their damn religion thinking that if someone pokes fun at it, they as a result can justify killing people, let alone those who aren't even involved. GROW UP.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I only have a moment...which is good, or you guys could once again be subjected to some of the longest posts in the history of the NAO. *wipes brow*

I haven't seen the cartoon...I should still go back and read this thread in it's entirety...and I am fast falling asleep. But I do think it worth briefly mentioning that from what little knowledge I have of the religion of Islam, it's prophet Mohammed, was actually a fairly open-minded sort of fellow. He, to my knowledge, was a proponent of women's rights, among other things. Although, I could be wrong.

So, if that knowledge of mine is correct, then I have two statements to follow this with:

1) Like my Dad, the minister, says about most Christians: "I like Christ, I just don't like his fan club." (This coming from a minister--> one of the few, IMHO who has his head in the right place...) You know how rumors get started, and if you go back to the source, the person will say: "That isn't what I said at all!?" "Lost in Translation"....and all that.

2) You know the Islamic faith has persecuted one of its own sects, the mystical branch of Islam: Sufism...for centuries upon centuries. Something about just not liking it when people find out they can go directly to the "Source" without all the mumbo-jumbo in the church pew, or on the prayer mat, with a supposedly all-knowing human source in the front of the room. Those poor Sufis. They are Muslim as well, but, to my knowledge, they are so lost in ecstasy that they don't have time to be running around having jihads. Just spinning and spinning and spinning...A good place to be, if you ask me...

And you know, as null pointed out, it's way more likely that the average Muslim could care less. The radical ones are always going to be more vocal. I'm not sure what that says about me.............*falls asleep*

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?

was actually a fairly open-minded sort of fellow. He, to my knowledge, was a proponent of women's rights, among other things. Although, I could be wrong.

From my brief understanding of the man, that is contrary to what I know and to what their holy books blatantly state.

Muhammad, quite frankly, was an bad guy.

According to Muhammad- Hell is mostly inhabited by women.

Want to know some interesting facts:Satan lives in the upper nostril at nightPlaying chess is evilnon-muslims have seven intestinesYou will loose your eyes if you pray looking upwardThe sun sets in mucky waterSatan urinates in the ears of those who fall asleep during prayerYawning comes from HellDogs are evil and should be slaughtered

>>>Courtousy of your local Islamic scriptures<<<

Here some facts from the 'holy' Koran:

Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. (2:191)

Fight and slay the pagans (translation: that's us) seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem. (9:5)

Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers...(5:34)

...strike off the heads of the disbelievers...[make a] wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives [for ransom] (947:4)

[treatment of disbelievers]...garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19).

The Koran also instructs Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and the feet of the unbelievers (5:34), fight unbelievers until no other religion except Islam remains. (3:85)

Given these basic teachings of Islam there is little reason to be surprised at what the Muslim world does.

Ohh yea...But its a religion of Peace!!!

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Religion of Peace??

Hmmm. I don't know where it was that I read that Mohammed was open-minded about women...but I remember thinking, well there are a lot of 'Christians' who seem to be very confused about what Jesus really wanted them do, so I figured the same could have happened to Mohammed. Misunderstanding is rampant. Not that I am refuting what you put up here, because I'm not. I can't.........You see, I haven't read the Koran. Something tells me that I should, just so I can know for myself.

So, I am taking your words to heart, and will try to procure myself a copy of the Koran for my perusal.

As far as what I said about some Christians misunderstanding what Jesus wanted them to do....let me explain, so that I don't inadvertently get "crucified".

I am in a hurry, so all I could find was the passage in Luke. I know it exists as well in Matthew, and probably Mark and John. Since I am not a biblical scholar (my Pop is...and he has studied comparitive religions, so might be of assistance on the Koran...), and I don't personally profess to be a Christian (leaning more toward Hinduism or Buddhism), I am ONLY quoting. But here is what it says after Jesus tells the crowd the parable about sowing seeds that ends in: "If you have ears to hear, then hear." The rest of the passage is thus: "His disciples asked him what this parable meant, and he said,

'It has been granted to you to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but the others have only parables, so that they may look but see nothing, hear but understand nothing.' - Luke 8: 9,10

*aside* I cannot believe that I just quoted a Bible passage. O_O.

Wow, there is a first for everything. :D Just don't plan on it happening again, because I'm really more drawn to Hinduism and Buddhism. ;p

At any rate, my point being that there are so many people who distort the Christian faith. They don't really follow what Jesus taught. They see what they 'think' they see in the Bible, and they hear, but they aren't hearing the 'seed'. They aren't hearing the word of God, which is the 'seed', which is 'Amen', or also 'Aum' and 'Om'. It is the "All", the thing that connects us to one another. If they aren't hearing that, it is much more likely that they are not hearing the true word, and are only hearing a "parable". And parables are fine, but they tend to do a little obscuration of the truth, simply because people don't always "get" the parable the way that it might truly have been intended. Which is pretty much what Jesus says in that passage.

And conversely, the core of what some people in the Islamic faith believe may have more to do with their own personal faith, than what the Koran tells them. I know quite a few Muslims who don't behave as if they have taken to heart what you quoted, and who likely would not be offended by the cartoons about Mohammed. They just don't think it is that important. But who knows. So many things get distorted and twisted "in the name of God".

I mean, I am guessing, so don't hold me to it, but I suspect that as far as Hinduism, there isn't anything in the Rig Veda, or any other text that specifically says that a woman should lie down and commit suttee (hope I am spelling that right) after her husband dies. I could be wrong.

It sounds to me as if your wonderfully worded diatribe, because you did make me laugh with the whole 'camel piss' thing, and just the general way you worded your post, has inadvertently become a motivating force for me to read not only the Koran, but the Rig Veda, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible, and anything else that I have neither read at all (in the case of the Koran), nor read in its entirety (in the case of the latter three). Plus there is so much about Hinduism and Buddhism, which greatly interest me that I have not read. I just finished reading the article that Linda Johnsen, a student of the now deceased Swami Rama, wrote about the inherent ecumenical nature of Hinduism.

Wouldn't it be nice, Hardballkid (and darn it, I can't remember your name, I'm sorry, you did tell me...), if all of the major world religions were ecumenical? I just keep thinking of the acronym that ravers use: PLUR. Peace, love, understanding, respect. (And just because I don't want to use 'X', doesn't mean I can't hang out with ravers, but that is beside the point, and another digression on my part...*sighs*)

Thanks for the heads up, as well as for the quotes. And of course, your exasperated humor. It is refreshing to see someone blend just enough humor into their diatribes to make it palatable. Kind of like making bitter melon taste sweet. I found what you wrote quite interesting, and am inclined to do more research. And now I must absolutely go do my laundry. Wish me well, my head is a little stuffy.

P.S. I did find the T-shirts funny. "Mohammed Ali"....hahhahha!!! Everyone should be able to laugh at themselves, even Mohammed. Don't you think? Although I expect that my friend Joe's feelings would be deeply hurt if I were to wear that shirt. I don't think he'd shoot me though....he's not that kinda guy.

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?

Re: Religion of Peace??

Wouldn't it be nice, Hardballkid (and darn it, I can't remember your name, I'm sorry, you did tell me...), if all of the major world religions were ecumenical? I just keep thinking of the acronym that ravers use: PLUR. Peace, love, understanding, respect.

In other words, we may not all be Catholics or Methodists, Muslim or Lutherans, etc., but we all worship the same God; but we do it in 'our own way'; so naturally, because we are sincere about our love & worship, we can be sure God DOES hear us because God is love & if we love each other, then certainly God must love us.

Sorry Rosy but thats an idealogy I cant go along with.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." - Eph. 5:11

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” I Jn. 4:1

Unity is used throughout the Bible, though too. Two becoming one flesh (Matthew19:5), intimacy with God (John 17), in faith (Ephesians 4:13), in knowledge (Ephesians 4:13), of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3), in mind andthought about Christ (1 Corinthians 1:10-12), one body (Ephesians4:3-6) and the list goes on. God values unity for a Godly cause. He wants His people to be on the same page. This does not mean God does not want differing opinions or viewpoints (Acts 15:39), but He does want us to agree on the core of a relationship with him. The scriptures point toward an agreement (from the Bible) of who God is and how to bein a relationship with Him.

Ecumenicalism, however, is less about finding the core of agreement as it is about compromising the core. Everything becomes negotiable. Opinions and convictions become interchangeable. The Bible becomes a nuisance. Unity at any price is not unity at all.

Throughout the Old Testament, the Israelites greatest threat was not necessarily converting to a new religion, but fusing another local belief system with Yahweh worship(Exodus 20:3). Jewish theology and conversion was muddled bysynthesized ideologies.

You see, to ride the ecumenical band wagon, one must throw Truth overboard. To agree with ecumenism is to agree to confusion. God is not the author of confusion. He is Truth. There is no error in Him, and He calls no one to preach a mixture, or to join with it.

The ecumenical movement wants nothing to do with the Christ of the Bible.

As a Christian...its not about being accepted by people...it is about being acceptable with God.

I understand the desire for peace on Earth, however, religious pluralism is not an option.

And now I must absolutely go do my laundry.

As well as I. I woke up with a stomach flu this morning (which caused me to miss my Jujitsu practice :-( so I must wash my bed-spread and sheets now.

A Reflection on Christianity

%u201CBeloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.%u201D I Jn. 4:1

Only one reflection about this. Let me state to begin with that I am a Catholic Christian, so in theory I should be the most conservative about Christianity and all the other things that people think about the Catholics (most things are sort of wrong however).

Well, while I might/might not believe in every sort of thing written in the Bible - so I am not saying that what you state is absolutely untrue, not proved or whatever else, at the same time I always wonder "Well how can we be so sure that there is only 1 God?". Wait, before accusing me of blasphemy, let me explain what I mean by that :P The Christians, and even moreso the Catholics, believe of course in only one God, who is one and three (sorry, I don't know how to call that "property" in English, but what I mean is that in the figure of God there are three figures: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost).

Anyway, so far so good, right? All the Christians believe in only one single God, and they believe that He will save them, and all the other things we all know. But there are different religions; there are different Gods according to the different religions, and I do not necessarily think that those who are not Christians will go to hell, or whatever else you might replace it with. Why? Because they definitely have other Gods - the Muslim have Allah - who preach basically the same thing: believe in me, and you'll be saved.

For this reason, I don't necessarily think that there is only one single God. I mean, there is only one God for the Christians, but this doesn't necessarily mean that other people will be condemned because they are not Christians. I understand that for some this could be at the verge of blasphemy, but it is definitely very rational: I mean, how can we just say that our God is the only God for every single human being? And what if we were wrong? What if the only God was Allah? No, I believe that whoever is Christian will be saved by the God he believes in, and whoever belongs to other religions will be saved by their own God.

With this said, while I might go to church every now and then, and while I'd like to believe that there is something else after life, at the same time I think that religions were born only to give answers to people. But once Darwin started to explain his evolution theory (accepted everywhere), religion started to lose its meaning. I don't necessarily believe that at the beginning it was Adam and Eve. I believe that we come from primates! The Church doesn't have a position about it, also because they have no way to explain the evolution theories taking into account God. Unless of course they said that God created the world, and that's about it... or maybe that he put some bacteria in the water or whatnot.

Also, religion was good to give a moral guidance to man. Christianity says to not have sex before marriage: how many people do you think respect that? I am the first one who admits to have not respected that. Why? Well, because morality values are changing, and we cannot accept something that could have been valid centuries ago. In 1800 girls had to be virgin until marriage, or nobody would have taken them; men did not necessarily have to wait until marriage.

Religion also says to never wish to have the woman/man of another person: how many people we know are or have always respected that? I have never cheated on Neil and never will, not only because I love him, but because it is immoral. If you don't love a person anymore, you break up with him/her before fucking someone else.

"Do not kill". Come on, do you really think that a religion has to impose that on you? Killing would be bad, wrong and immoral. People wouldn't do it even if religion didn't exist. Why? Because of course there are laws, and there would be consequences. And besides, those who kill are often the same people who go to church. An example? Take some states of the USA, or take some states of Africa (eg Ghana). They have death penalty over there. And they have killed several people. Now, in the Old Testament, there is that kind of law, but didn't the Lord say not to kill? This means that all those who kill other people are hypocrites. They go to church, but then if the law is to kill someone who has killed another person, they would do it.

Anyway, I am ranting here. But Hardball, I hope I have explained you why I believe that your position, so strong towards religion is wrong. Oh and on a side note, I wouldn't say that the Muslims (even the integralist) are so scarier than the Catholic/Christian integralist. Does everybody remember what they did during the Crusades? Or maybe should I refresh your memory explaining how they impaled and killed in horrid ways those who did not believe in Christ? Was that the famous love that Christ himself had preached? I think not.

Rationalizing Religious Pluralism?

who is one and three (sorry, I don't know how to call that "property" in English, but what I mean is that in the figure of God there are three figures: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost).

That would be the equivalent to our Trinity (three-in-one Godhead).

I mean, how can we just say that our God is the only God for every single human being? And what if we were wrong? What if the only God was Allah? No, I believe that whoever is Christian will be saved by the God he believes in, and whoever belongs to other religions will be saved by their own God.

There is a popular analogy used to show that all religions are valid ways to describe God, which is what you seem to believe. Religion professors especially love this philosophic analogy, because it equalizes all religions, making all religions equally "true" in their description of God.

If your not familiar with the Elephant analogy (John Hick)- The analogy is this: there are four blind men who discover an elephant. Since the men have never encountered an elephant, they grope about, seeking to understand and describe this new phenomenon. One grasps the trunk and concludes it is a snake. Another explores one of the elephant's legs and describes it as a tree. A third finds the elephant's tail and announces that it is a rope. And the fourth blind man, after discovering the elephant's side, concludes that it is, after all, a wall.

Each in his blindness is describing the same thing: an elephant. Yet each describes the same thing in a radically different way.

According to many, this is analogous to the different religions of the world- they are describing the same thing in radically different ways. Thus one should conclude that no individual religion has a corner on truth, but that all should be viewed as essentially equally valid.

Ironically, while the elephant analogy attempts to validate the truth of all religions, if taken to its logical conclusion the story really shows that all religions fail to identify God adequately.

According to laws of logic and the historical realities of Scripture, religious pluralism cannot be true.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: A Reflection on Christianity

For this reason, I don't necessarily think that there is only one single God.

Let me state to begin with that I am a Catholic Christian, so in theory I should be the most conservative about Christianity and all the other things that people think about the Catholics (most things are sort of wrong however).

They just dont go. I suggest you question your religious beliefs if you dont believe in one of the most crucial creeds of the faith.

Looking at all the other religions and what they have to "offer" just doesnt attract me:

•Hindus believe in 300,000 gods. •Buddhists say there is no deity. •Muslims believe in a powerful but unknowable & unmerciful God.

•Christians believe in a God who is loving and approachable.

In Hinduism a person is on his or her own trying to gain release from karma. In Buddhism it is an individual quest at being free from desire. And in Islam, the individual follows religious laws for the sake of paradise after death. In Jesus' teaching, you see a personal relationship with a personal God - a relationship that carries over into the next life.

Why Christianity? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and whoever else all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at Him. Though He talked about His Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in Him, believed in the Father.

He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."

Continuing with the Islam thread- Comparing the Bible & the Qu'ran, one can easily see the difference:

3)Bible- Miracles, numerous are witnessed & recorded. Qu'ran- No Miracles recorded, except they claim the Qur'an is a miracle.

4)Bible- Makes numerous prophecies. Qu'ran- Makes none.

Not to mention that Jesus has performed the greatest act of loveIn John 15:13 Jesus said, “Greater love has no man than this, that he lay his life down for his friend.”

What did Allah ever do?

We can easily see the huge difference between the God of Islam and the God of the Bible. In Islam, God does not love all people. In the Bible, God does love all people. In Islam, Allah did not die for the sins of those who were not his. In the Bible, God did do that. In Islam, Allah has not performed the greatest act of love. In the Bible, God did exactly that.

My question to any Muslim is, "What makes you think that I want to give up my Lord who loves me so much that He would die for me, and did, for a god who has not and cannot perform the greatest act of love?"

Just a thought.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: A Reflection on Christianity

Re: A Reflection on Christianity

Well, I know you didn't mean it as a joke. In fact, the correct way to describe it would be a sarcastic comment. And I just so happen to like your sarcastic comments a lot. But of course I can't deny the fact that it put a smile on my face, because it got me thinking that sometimes we really think alike. I would have written the same thing myself, if you hadn't beat me on time :)

Re: A Reflection on Christianity

If your not familiar with the Elephant analogy (John Hick)- The analogy is this: there are four blind men who discover an elephant. Since the men have never encountered an elephant, they grope about, seeking to understand and describe this new phenomenon. One grasps the trunk and concludes it is a snake. Another explores one of the elephant's legs and describes it as a tree. A third finds the elephant's tail and announces that it is a rope. And the fourth blind man, after discovering the elephant's side, concludes that it is, after all, a wall.

Of course, then we could all be blind men groping an elephant in the dark while the real god is wondering what the hell we're doing.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Re: Religion of Peace??

Sorry Rosy but that is an ideology I can't go along with.

Your choice. :)

Ecumenicalism, however, is less about finding the core of agreement as it is about compromising the core. Everything becomes negotiable. Opinions and convictions become interchangable. The Bible becomes a nuisance. Unity at any price is not unity at all.

Again, your opinion, and possibly that of many others, but there are also those who differ, myself included.

You see to ride the ecumenical bandwagon, one must throw Truth overboard. To agree to ecumenism is to agree to confusion. God is not the author of confusion. He is Truth, there is no error in Him, and He calls no one to preach a mixture, or to join with it.

... also your opinion; mine is different...that's pretty clear. Oh well, such is life. To hear him tell it though, God did "call" my Dad; but it could have been a miscommunication between him and God. ;p

The ecumenical movement wants nothing to do with the Christ of the Bible.

Again...your opinion, and probably that of everyone in your congregation. Everyone is different.

As a Christian...it is not about being accepted by people...it is about being acceptable with God.

Mm.

I understand the desire for peace on Earth, however, religious pluralism is not an option.

mmmmmm.

I have no desire to argue. You've stated your case, I've stated mine. I simply made a suggestion that maybe we could all learn to get along. I pretty much go along with Ecumenicalism and PLUR, but then...that is redundant. And saying that it is redundant is redundant. Which is even more redundant. :DDDD

Religion of Peace?? You Decide...

I found what you wrote quite interesting, and am inclined to do more research.

I was asked what translation of the Koran I would suggest to be read. I myself have not read all of the book(most of it though); however, I plan to finish it when I get more time to do so.

It has once been stated that "... The Qur'an cannot be translated. ...The book is here rendered almost literally and every effort has been made to choose befitting language… It can never take the place of the Qur'an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so..."

With all that aside, here are two translations which I have heard to be the most accurate:

+An authentic and faithful translation of the Qur'an in readable, fluent English. Contains a historically based 'Introduction' discussing Islam, the Qur'an and Sirah, and brief yet insightful notes on the circumstantial setting and the meaning of certain Qura'nic allusions and expressions. =Suffers from a few inaccuracies in translation.

(& which I have)"The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an," Text, Translation and Commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, 1934.

(*Both by Muslims)

It is necessary that one reads the Hadith (the actual spoken words of Muhammad). They go hand in hand in revealing the religions hypocrisy and contradictive nature of the religion.

Here are some facts one should know before picking up a copy of the Koran (thus understanding the nature of its interpretations):

*90% of the Muslim world does not know Arabic(That is because most who have accepted the faith are of the European, African and American nationality) *70% of the remaining 10% do not comprehend the classic Arabic of the Qu’ran.(That is because Arabic is a living language- it has evolved and changed over the centuries) *The Arabic of the original Koran might as well be a dead language because of the languages evolution.

Well, they you are. Mind you I am no Islamic scholar or Arabic professor, however, from my modest knowledge of the religion, above is my suggestions.

So, I do encourage you to pck up a copy- to read it & weep (either because of its dogmatic words or because you fear for your life).

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Religion of Peace??

Given these basic teachings of Islam there is little reason to be surprised at what the Muslim world does.

You can find exactly the same kind of stuff in the Christian bible.

(I'm taking the King James version here, just because I dig the old-fashioned language)

Kill people who don't listen to priests:"And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Kill the gays:"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill fortune tellers:"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:27)

Kill more nonbelievers:"That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)

If you find a priest of another religion, slaughter his whole town:"If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, [...] are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods [...] Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city" (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill people who work on Sundays:"Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 31:15)

Coexist

Thanks null, for finding Bible passages that point out how contradictory the Bible can be...I have to confess, I rewrote a few of my sentences in that one post responding to the quotes from the Koran that Hardballkid drew up, because I went back and read them, and thought that I didn't want to come under fire from people for saying that the Bible contradicts itself. But it does, and alas *sighs*, it's just my fear of not being able to respond correctly to people's ire that made me carefully reword my writing.

So, the point is: Almost every religion likely has a lot of contradictory tenets and wording in their sacred texts. Yet you meet people from so many different religions who CAN 'coexist' and tolerate each other...it must mean that they "go behind the scenes" of their respective religions, so to speak, and try to get at the root of their faith, which generally speaking teaches them to care about other people.

Funny, that word COEXIST. There is a story behind it.

On the 4th of this month, around 6-7 p.m., I went to have dinner at a Thai restaurant with one of my friends who is Muslim, as well as Palestinian. We ended up talking about how it seems sometimes that the Universe has a method to it's madness when you get certain illnesses. He called the Universe: God, and then apologized. He said, "it's just a term." I said, "I know," and referred him to a book I was reading about Georg Cantor, who propounded "continuum theory", and was instrumental in delineating the set of Infinite numbers. (You're supposed to laugh here...;p) I pointed out how, by the time Cantor was in the nuthouse, he was meditating for hours on the Infinite, the same way those who studied the Kaballah do. Btw, Georg Cantor is Jewish.

My friend always gets a little strained when talking about anything that has to do with the Jewish faith, because he's watched his family have their vineland that they owned for 100 years taken from them to be given to Jewish settlers, with no compensation. His family, now here, has had to start from scratch. They had money, i.e., land, and now it is gone. He has supported them off and on, financially, since they have been living in the U.S. For him to only get a "pained look" when thinking about Israel, is really something. He doesn't hate Jewish people.

In fact, when I told him about Palestinian director Elia Suleiman's movie: "Divine Intervention", he wanted very much to see it. I told him about one of the last scenes in Suleiman's movie, where he is sitting at a stoplight in a car next to a car driven by a Jewish man wearing a yamuka, who has covered his car with bumper-stickers stating things like: "Free Israel". Sulieman, who acts in his own movie, puts a set of Blues Brothers shades on, pops a tape in the deck, rolls down his driver's-side window, and peers down the end of his nose from behind his shades at the Jewish guy in the car, while the stereo plays Screamin' Jay Hawkins version of : I Put a Spell on You. If you know the lyrics, it will make sense. It's about a woman telling her man to stop cheating on her.

This is funny. And the movie was meant to be funny, but in a painful sort of way...because the whole Middle East situation is funny in a painful sort of way. By the end of the film, Sulieman has watched his father die, in the midst of chaos, and sits in the kitchen with his mother, watching a pressure-cooker begin to whistle. The implication being: When is she gonna blow? When is Islam gonna blow? When is Judaism gonna blow? When is Christianity gonna blow? Or will "God" intervene? And will anyone listen?

On a certain level, if you look at the news all of the time, you just get numb. It may be Ramadan, but that doesn't mean that my rather consistent news-fasting has anything to do with the Muslim faith. I just don't want to either be numb, or be irrate.

I find that, personally, the way events have conspired to make me have to shy away from the NAO has been good for me. Now that I find myself with an unexpected month of time left on my DSL account, and also find myself sick and down for the count, unable to keep the hasty pace that I was keeping...it has made me sit up and take notice of this situation.

Anyway, by the time I left dinner on the 4th with my friend, and was driving home thinking about our conversation about different faiths, and how it is all "One", I looked up and saw a bumper-sticker on a car. And it reminded me, oddly, of the bumper-stickered car in Suleiman's movie. Only, it took my muddled and tired brain a bit to get what the letters on the bumper-sticker were spelling out:

C-O-E-X-I-S-T

The "C" was the moon-and-star symbol of Islam.The "O" was a peace sign.The "E" was, I believe, for 'ecumenical'?The "X" was the Star of David.The "i" looked almost like a pole with a waning moon on it, no idea....The "S" was like a snake (assume the Goddess religions...)And the "T", you guessed it: was a Christian cross.

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?

About those Scriptures...

As some of you who are familiar with me have come to anticipate, I am swooping in yet again to defend my beliefs. Personally I find the old testament law fascinating. I don't see a problem with the verses you mentioned (in a moment you will see why), and I think it is worth pointing out that the same arguments of interpretation and development of doctrine I make may also be made to the benefit of Islam and the Koran as well.

(Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

I would like to point out here that you conveniently leave out what is written in verse 13, that “wicked men have risen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go worship other gods...(gods you have not known)” (this you omitted as well). In a city that is set aside by the Lord, for the Lord and the people of Israel, it is demanding that the worship of any other god not be tolerated. And if there are people in that town who are spreading what the Jews perceived to be a false faith, they may be driven away or killed.

You need to remember as well that these are laws governing the lands inhabited by the people of Israel. The citizens of these towns are Jews, and those who are preaching the worship of other gods, for the Jewish standpoint, are heretics. If through inquiry it is found that the town in its entirety filled with this teaching, that it has been concealed by everyone and not fought against or driven out by the people faithful to Judaism, then that town will be destroyed.

You need to remember that this is the Old Testament law, founded on precepts regarding sin and transgression that are slightly different from those of the New Testament. As always, by the biblical viewpoint, “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23a). But from the biblical standpoint, this is prior to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and therefore the sole vestige of God's justice on earth is the law, and the law only.

Specifically in this passage (read the whole thing, actually), we are talking about laws governing Jews who have turned away and have also led others astray as well. As Paul later writes, “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...” (in the OT, this would be unbelieving Gentiles) “...and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.” (Romans 2:12). This law recorded by Moses governs the people of Israel, and therefore if they transgress under that law, they are then judged by it. It does not govern the gentile until the gentile accepts the law by becoming a Jew (and thus ceasing to be a gentile). It punishes the unbelievers who once did believe.

The reason you don't see things like this being preached nowadays is because Christians profess that, in the death of Jesus, they are set free from the law. “If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 2:1-2) And as the verse I mentioned earlier states, “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law.” Christians do not put heretics to death anymore because those heretics only have one criteria regarding their own salvation and that of those they lead: their faith in Christ. They are being judged apart from the law, and therefore because of this sacrifice, the law of the Old Testament regarding such a violent reprisal against false teaching does not apply. With the law removed, we are judged only by our faith in Jesus Christ. The word I highlighted, propitiation describes this act perfectly—all of our sin, by biblical teaching—is lain on his shoulders. This includes sin against the law. We do not need to fear the law, and therefore need only focus on our faith in Jesus, by which righteous living will naturally result. “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and Profits testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (Romans 3:20-22)

What you are citing from the Old Testament is intended to govern those who transgress against God within the nation of Israel. The Law itself, we believe, was given to single out, to designate the chosen people of God in a world of unbelief. Your citations come wholly from the law books of the Pentateuch, of the Torah. Your Second Chronicles citation, the only one outside of it, describes still the interior history of Israel, with the unbelieving among them, who were under the jurisdiction of the law. They are in a situation, incidentally, exactly like that of the city you cited from Deuteronomy. In these days, after the death of Jesus, we Christians teach that such a departure from God is no longer judged by the law, but by God himself apart from the law.

It was my hope with this to give you a satisfactory explanation of our beliefs about the law and scriptures. Even in disagreeing, I hope you can see that our beliefs are reasoned and discerned, though they may be disagreeable to you on an ideological basis. Here it is, then, in summary: Under the law, the people of Israel (and they alone) were judged by God. The Gentiles, outside, apart from it, were judged apart from it, and were outside of salvation. The bible does not preach the wholesale slaughter of Gentiles wherever they are found. And now, in the latter days after Christ's death, Jews and Gentiles alike are set free from the law, because the judgment of the law has been executed in the death of Christ. Our sole basis for righteous living, for salvation and sanctification, is now simple and sincere faith in his death. That is what we believe.

As to the Koran passages, I personally would not consider Islam a religion of peace. I do not believe terrorists or extremists are anywhere near its fundamental message, though I do not know the message in great detail. I would like to point out, however, that without a scripturally-oriented Muslim here as a part of our discussion we will have very little way of knowing exactly what is is they say about those passages we cited in the Koran. I think it is worth noting, however, that with our general ignorance to the fullness of their scriptures' message, it is a very heavy statement to make that their tradition is one of contradiction and hypocrisy. This ignorance is a cornerstone of our tattered relationship with the east, and the catalyst behind the sort of anti-Islamic accretions of our western world.

Re: Religion of Peace??

You can find exactly the same kind of stuff in the Christian bible.

I woulnt go as far as to say 'exactly' null.

Ever Scripture passage you mentioned in in the Old Testament, which were times of kill or be killed. Old Testament Israel was strictly law. Many of the verses drawn up all need to be looked at in context and not diced and chopped, as well.

Biblical law is of various sorts. Moral laws command the personal and community behavior that is always our duty. The political laws of the Old Testament applied principles of the moral law to Israel's national situation when Israel was a theocracy. God's people on earth. The Old Testament laws about ceremony purity, diet, and sacrifice were temporary encactments for purposes of insruction. They were canceled by the New Testament because their symbolic meaning had been fulfilled (Matt. 15:20, Acts 10:9-16, Heb. 10:1-14)

Muhammed was a thief, murderer, slaver, rapist, misogynist and sexual pervert. That was on a good day. We need look no further than the Koran and Hadith to find a record of his countless crimes.

Can anyone cite a passage in which Jesus raised a band of raiders that (stealthily or openly) split an old woman in two? Can anyone cite a passage about Jesus torturing a treasurer (or anyone else) to discover where money was hidden?What about a passage concerning the early church in the Book of Acts or the next generation of Christian documents?

No one can, because such passages do not exist.

Jesus never waged war or raided people, even though he had twelve legions of angels at his disposal (Matthew 26:53). This shows divine restraint, even at his most desperate hour, just before his crucifixion.

This is far different from Sura 5:33 and the life of Muhammad. This verse is not a parable; it is law. It legitimizes and commands crucifixion and mutilation. Also, Muhammad and his close followers actually inflicted torture in real life, so he was consistent with the Quranic law dreamed up by the god of the Arabian Peninsula. Moreover, Muhammad believed Muslim angels helped him kill his enemies at the Battle of Badr (Sura 8:12).

Thus, the difference between Gospel parables and Jesus’ real life on the one hand and a Quranic legal passage and Muhammad’s real life on the other is too wide to be compared. The contrast could not be clearer.

The bottom line: Jesus Christ came with good news and the love of God. As the eternal Son of God, he came to save people and to transform them from the inside out. If people do not want this, then they are free to go their own way. This is religious freedom. On the other hand, being only a human messenger(Suras 3:144; 39:30; 41:6) who needed to control his religion and Muslims, Muhammad came with crucifixion and mutilation—torture. This is religious slavery:

Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13

Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. 5:14

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

Fight against Christians and Jews who disbelieve in Allah, until they pay the tax noting your religion is superior. 9:29

If they aren't hearing that, it is much more likely that they are not hearing the true word, and are only hearing a "parable". And parables are fine, but they tend to do a little obscuration of the truth, simply because people don't always "get" the parable the way that it might truly have been intended. Which is pretty much what Jesus says in that passage.

Every freshman Bible student is taught to determine the genre or kind of Scripture passage that he is analyzing. If it is a parable, then the students must not take the details literally.

In this case, the parable relates the events at the end time, during God’s judgment. Islam and Christianity agree that disobedient unbelievers will be punished for their actions, in the Last Day. The details of a parable must not be overinterpreted, but the essentials are what matter. And the essential message is this: The severity of the punishments in the literary world of the parable indicates the severity of the punishments at Judgment. But the punishments in the parables about the Last Day are not to be carried out down here on earth, here and now. They are left in God’s hands in heaven when he calls for the ending of the world.

(I'm taking the King James version here, just because I dig the old-fashioned language)

What do you know...Me too! Definetly my Bible translation of preference.

BTW- Did anyone buy a shirt yet?? Lol.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Religion of Peace??

The Old Testament laws about ceremony purity, diet, and sacrifice were temporary encactments for purposes of insruction. They were canceled by the New Testament because their symbolic meaning had been fulfilled

Heh, but isn't the Holy Bible God's timeless word which is not subject to any change or interpretation? Oh I forgot, the Holy Bible is never self-contradictory. It's just that God's ways are insondable and His words beyond the mental capacity of our humble minds.Still, considering that the Old Testament is supposed to be more or less replaced by the New Testament (if that's what you say), there sure are a lot of so-called Christians who still use it as their guide.

Calling all Muslims murderous extremists, on the other hand, (not that I mean to imply you did that) just because their holy book contains extremist passages, seems to be a little too far-reaching to me. I've met quite a few Muslims in my life, and so far nobody tried to kill me because I'm an infidel. The one time I've been to Egypt I've actually met some of the most hospitable people in the world. Believe it or not, not all Muslims are religious extremists.

Re: Religion of Peace??

Heh, but isn't the Holy Bible God's timeless word which is not subject to any change or interpretation? Oh I forgot, the Holy Bible is never self-contradictory. It's just that God's ways are insondable and His words beyond the mental capacity of our humble minds.

You are entirely correct in pointing out that we do teach that God is unchanging and eternal. In your sense, however, a Christian should never give up so easily as to say "well, I just can't fathom what he's doing so I won't even try...it might give my brain too much of a workout." This is a self-destructive view for a member of any religion to hold. While God is ultimately incomprehensible, he nevertheless gives us reason and understanding, and references to his impartment of knowledge are found throughout the bible. As Christians, we must have reasons for believing what we do, beyond the easy way out of saying that God is simply unknowable. By this we may fall unknowling into a sort of pseudo-agnosticism while still professing the faith.

As to your question about his changing or not, revelation to the world, (in scripture) has grown over time. Because of new ways in which we perceive him--through his son Jesus--our understanding of him increases. And it must increase without our throwing out anything that was before, if we are to continue to believe what you state; and we certainly do.

Specifically with the law, nothing has been overturned, ruled out, or corrected as false teaching by Christ. Instead it has been fulfilled. "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18). Jesus himself says that the law cannot be destroyed--it is God's tool by which we are made aware of sin (Romans 3:20).

Now new revelation has been added, which we believe is Jesus. And at this point the law assumes a different role. It simply is no longer God's most direct revelation on earth. It is still the law, still his precepts of righteousness, but in Christ they are fulfilled and in him a new revelation of righteousness is made manifest (Romans 3:21)-- the law once was the only manifestation. The reason that we do not adhere to the ritual purity laws of the Old Testament is that as Gentiles, we are judged outside those laws, and in Christ the punishment for any disobedience to such laws was carried out (when he was crucified).

The law is fulfilled in Jesus, not revised, removed, or discredited, because he was murdered for it. The wages of sin, we teach, is death. The law is perfectly just because God is, and God carried out the execution of the law--but on Jesus instead of us. Jesus collected the wages of our sin, which includes sin against the law. Therefore we do not need to adhere to the ritual laws of the Old Testament, because in Jesus their purpose has been fulfilled. As Hardballkid pointed out, however, we are still told to adhere to the moral precepts of the law. This is merely because our two-fold dictum of Christ (love God, love neighbor) encompasses all of the moral laws of the Old Testament.

Let me give you a fictitious example, and let me credit C.S. Lewis for giving me a wonderful story to use. In The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, the lion Aslan is killed on the stone table, and rises from the dead the next day. This is the death of Jesus in its most basic essence. He is killed for the sin of another (Edmund) and because of his sacrifice, the law (the stone table) is cracked in half, and no longer governs our destiny (that "All Narnia shall perish in fire, and water" if sin go unpunished).

That is an excellent metaphor of the law from the Christian standpoint, and of the completion it draws to in Christ. God is not changing, through his revelation is increasing (I say this to highlight that it is added to what has been made known before). His old commands do not pass away, but are fulfilled in the death of Jesus. I hope this makes sense.

Re: Religion of Peace??

The one time I've been to Egypt I've actually met some of the most hospitable people in the world. Believe it or not, not all Muslims are religious extremists.

More hospitable than us?! :PI agree with you 101% Bernie. And remember that there are integralists also between Christians/Catholics/Protestants... And they are no less scary than the integralist Muslims.

Re: Religion of Peace??

And remember that there are integralists also between Christians/Catholics/Protestants... And they are no less scary than the integralist Muslims.

Heh, I suppose every religion has its share of weirdos. That's what makes religion so dangerous, you can take the kindest prophet/messiah in the world and twist his words to support any number of sinister plans.

Re: Religion of Peace??

Heh, I suppose every religion has its share of weirdos. That's what makes religion so dangerous, you can take the kindest prophet/messiah in the world and twist his words to support any number of sinister plans.

*cough*Hitler*cough*

I hate to be the one to overgeneralize, but it must be said. You know if there is one thing which has always been true, it is that for every race/creed/color/gender, there have always been those who would sooner die than let them invade their lives. And by "invade their lives," it could be as stupid as seeing news reports on a television set though they have never even met one in person.

Take a bunch of men who like to grow beards, praise Allah, wear strange garments, downsize women, and have absolutely NO sense of humor about themselves whatsoever, you are GOING to have people making fun of them.

But in all fairness, if we americans started making cartoons depicting Danish people as stupid for making cartoons depicting the Muslim people, I have no doubts that the Danish people would not be too thrilled either.

It's all idiotic if you ask me. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd like to think that if we saw a cartoon of a shirtless fat couch potato American with a beer hat on chomping on chips watching a football game, I'd take it in moderation. I'd like to think I'd even laugh about it, even if years later. ;)

Moral of the story: Everyone should get *OVER* it.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I'm not really going to read the entire thread - sorry :-) - but just so I can someday tell my grandchildren I've been part of this...

I understand that some muslims might feel offended by the cartoons, but there are several details that strike me as funny, if not interesting:

The cartoons were published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten last September, and nobody seemed to care about them. Then they were re-printed in various European countries (France, Germany, ...) and all of a sudden everybody starts pointing fingers at Denmark. I've heard a theory that the Danish comics were shown around at a Muslim meeting only last week, but come on, not all Muslims are automatically underdeveloped. These people have phones and internet just like the rest of us!

The paper's culture editor, Fleming Rose, said he never intended to offend Muslims. He just asked the cartoonists to draw Muhammad as they saw him. Now if some of those cartoons were less than flattering, it would have been a good idea to use them and start a discussion on xenophobia, instead of blowing the whole thing so much out of proportion...

Most of the cartoons aren't even very offensive (just those that relate Muhammad to terrorism may testify to the respective author's religious ignorance). Every day I see cartoons that treat various politicians way less respectful. Are all those politicians and their supporters to get back to the cartoonists now?

It's funny that also those parts of the Arab world are in an uproar where Israelis and Americans are demonised on a daily basis using Jewish and Christian imagery.

I've both read in the papers and heard from somebody in Damascus that most Muslims don't even care and it's pretty much business as usual on the streets.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

INDIANAPOLIS, IN. Wait....Wait, there's more. Today Muslims are calling out "Death to America and Israel". What the hell is going on here? Since when did these cartoons start with America and Israel...? (Scratches head) If I remember correctly, this started with Denmark. Why does everything get flipped around on America and Israel with these Muslims? For once I thought; whew, Denmark can take some heat off of us; the stupid Americans. Thank you Denmark, but nooooooo how could I be so silly. Everything is somehow flipped back onto America. The death of Jesus, yup that was Americas fault. The Tsunami that hit in 2004, you guessed it that was Americas fault. Oh and most recently, the artist that depicted Muhammad with a bomb....DING DING DING you are the next contestant on Blame That On America (crowd of Muslims cheer).

(Cracking knuckles) Alright Muslims, what is going on here? Why is it that something small happens with a stupid cartoon and now death is being called out. I'm telling you this, the Muslim group is losing more popularity with me quicker than those snap on bracelets we all had when we were kids....Some of you readers might not even remember those metal bracelets with the cloth covering; they were out of fashion that quick! I'm tired of the Muslims playing this stupid religion card, EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

I keep encountering this urge to just call out the Muslim/Islamic group with expletives yet that wouldn't show my intelligence at all. Plus, it would be too easy. I'm just going to breath and count to ten..........Man that didn't help at all. So I'm just going to let the Muslims know how I feel in my letter:

Dear Muslims,Please fall off the face of the earth. There are many countries including America that would love to send you off. I love how these current events unfolding before us, are once again being blamed on the stupid Americans like me. Thank you. I love how a cartoon, yes a cartoon can...get this, make a religious group call out for death. Doesn't that sound hypocritical? IT'S A CARTOON LADIES AND GENTLEMAN, NOT REALITY. Although the creator of this cartoon obviously thought this is how the Muslim world acts. Think with me for a second. I wonder what group is most responsible for mass killings around the world, I'm gonna say the Muslim practice has got to be up there. The good old nation of islam, whoops I forgot to capitalize that, oh man I better watch my back now, you sensitive muslims, darn I did it again. Seriously, I am tired of you majority Muslims who love to practice extremism, hold your women down, practice non-freedom of speech, brain wash, and all the other nonsense you idiots do. The price is wrong with you bitches, now please pack your bags and LEAVE.

Re:

Friends,I was intending to read the thread fully but most of those long paragraphs lack the knowledge about the islamic belief(s). I am not gonna lecture you about islam but I have been a member of the moslems' club long enough to know that islam sucks, just like any of the other archaic religions does. But basically we must agree on the fact that Q'oran assumes that Allah can not be pictured. However the islamic belief(s) extend this assumption and asserts that mohammad can not be pictured either.

I promise you that those radical islamists would not react so fiercely to an ordinary cartoon which simply pictures mohammad. However one of those cartoons had a bomb on mohammad's head. That is nothing but an offence.

And let's think it over. The cartoons were published last year, but noone gave a damn about it. And one day, all of a sudden, all media organs start to tell the moslems that their prophet is being insulted all over the world by the western people. The moslems, who by all means lack the simplest intellectual background to evaluate the case, start to burn down the consulates. Something here does not fit the picture, but I don't want to speculate on conspiracy theories.

PS: the presence of USA in Iraq has really popularized the anti-western feelings in the islamic societies. I put some of the blame on the US president and his managers.

PPS: Actually most moslems here don't really care about the cartoons, except for those who expect some more political gain.

Re:

Considered, insightful and relatively unbiased. I think this has to be one of the better posts on this thread. Care to enlighten us where you're from, and what the people in your country think of the whole cartoon story? :-)

On a completely unrelated side note...

I can't help but notice that no matter what somebody thinks of the whole cartoon story, it's always "the Muslims this" and "the Muslims that". Maybe I'm missing a point, but doesn't this look a bit too over-generalised to you, too? I mean, even people who share the same religion are so different in so many aspects. There are plenty of morons who kill themselves & innocents in the name of Allah, and they're definitely bad. But not every Muslim walks around all the time with 6 pounds of C4 around his belly and a broadsword to behead infidels. Not every Muslim beats his wife. And maybe I'm wrong here, but didn't Muhammad (peace be upon him) preach a religion of peace?In the last 2000 years, countless people have been murdered in the name of God. That doesn't make all Christians bad. Maybe a form of government based on Islam is backward or underdeveloped in our Western eyes. That doesn't mean all people who live there are backward and ignorant.Likewise, I think it's kinda stupid to bash a whole country just because a few cartoonists from there insult your religious leader. Some of those cartoons were insulting, so what? You'll find ignorant cartoonists and xenophobes in every country! I think all parties involved have blown the story out of proportion to a point where it's beyond ridiculous. In the end, a few smart people on both sides will have exploited it for political gain, and the manipulated masses are left out in the cold.

...Oh, and sorry for abusing this comment by attaching a rant to it :-)

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Well it certainly helps radical Muslims around the world to rally people to violence against a group of people when there are those like you with a mentality of "Go fuck yourself, Islam." I don't feel that the violent fundamentalists you see on the news are responding in the right way to the cartoons, which I view were a social litmus test. If you look at them (all depictions of how the various artists view Muhammed), there is a whole lot more to the cartoons than just pissing off Muslims. It was a chance for cartoonists to come out and get to touch on a subject that's been relatively taboo for a long time. I think there are a lot of people rallying around the extreme response against Denmark solely for political gain; this whole ordeal should have become a chance for people to become more interested in WHY they believe what they believe, but instead there are people who are choosing to lash out defensively. And not just in the Middle East, there are Westerners who are jumping on this as a chance to start screaming about Islam, too, when all they know of is the corrupt, self-aggrandizing powermongers who call themselves religious leaders.

Should the papers in Denmark have published the cartoons? I think so, because even though one of the images was clearly meant to offend, the item as a whole may still have a positive effect on the world. Should the Danish government apologize? Not if they wish to consider themselves a democracy, and not unless they are willing to save face by saying sorry for what isn't their fault. If the New York Times, Le Figaro, or Der Spiegel printed these, I wouldn't expect George Bush, Jacques Chirac, or Angela Merkel apologize for something that free citizens of their nation did. For that matter, I haven't read anything about the same Muslim leaders calling for blood over the fact that a newspaper in CAIRO printed the cartoons (during Ramadan, no less).

From what I can tell, this shouldn't be as much of an issue as it is. Muslims, especially the more orthodox ones, have every right to be upset about the depiction of their Prophet. But there has been too much violence on their end. On the other side, there has been far too much name-calling and downright stupidity (I want to call it ignorance, but some people, even here, seem to be more interested in maintaining their biases than coming to understand what they're arguing against). As I said before, though, I think that we can still, especially those who have peace and understanding in their hearts, learn something from this instead of coming away from the incident even more hateful and bigoted.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I agree with null's post about the overgeneralization about "the moslems". I can assure you that you can find at least 100 different understandings of islam. That is why i prefer to use " islamic belief(s)" rather than "the islamic belief"

Although i agree with Magnifica regarding the fact that the last events can be a chance for a settle down, i have to add a point.

The islamic societies today are commonly underdeveloped and uneducated. And they have a very low self-esteem. Put those oil-rich sheikhs of OPEC aside, the remainder of the islamic world is prone to over-react because they are over-crowded and poor.

Forget about the islamic enlightenment, it won't take any less than 100 years. Until then, western societies should be more careful about "testing the boundaries of free speech" simply because those low-monitor people can easily be manipulated by some lunatic politicians.

and null, I live in Turkey, people here have given up the fundemantalist approach to islam long years ago. They believe that the cartoons were published simply for irritating some fanaticss. A vast majority of people here don't take those cartoons very seriously because they believe that a few pictures cannot give any harm to the beloved memory of mohammad. That is why i like the people here. Their diversity of cultures has already taught them to cope with such offences.

Is there any 'comedy' in the Muslim word?

I have to agree with null. You are the most reasoned voice in this discussion. And considering that you live in Turkey, much closer to where all the political turmoil has been going on...that is definitely speaking toward the level of tolerance that exists there, as opposed to elsewhere in the world, such as the U.S., from which I hail.

It's nice to know that what I thought was true, i.e., that a large majority of Muslims somewhere didn't feel that the cartoons could mar the memory of Mohammad, is true. When I finally read about the fact that some Danish citizens actually burned a copy of the Koran, I thought, wow, this stuff starts small and goes global. If ever there were a reason to stop, sit back, and think hard about lashing out at someone on a personal level, and realize that it can have a ripple effect that affects millions, maybe even billions, it is something like this situation.

On a personal note, after having been gone from this site due to feeling misunderstood, and having 'hated back on people that hated on me', to come back and read this post, and finally feel that I can trust myself to post something in "Current Events", and not be afraid I'd freak out and snap at somebody for being a bit harsh in their opinions...is progress. Tolerance is what I hope to build slowly. I haven't had trouble with tolerance of religions perse, but tolerance of specific behaviors that personally could affect me, and yet that kind of thing, in the right context (or wrong, as it may be) can easily go global.

I find it immensely interesting that as the events which are being discussed in this forum occured, I was simultaneously dealing yet again with my anger toward one individual who actually was a very reactionary member of the Islamic faith, whom I can't name; as well as having dinner with a very non-reactionary Muslim young man who just so happens to be Palestinian. I read that a number of Palestinians were also burning Danish flags. And guess what? I'm Danish. Third-generation. And I love my Danish heritage. I love the Lutherans and Garrison Keillor. And my friend, who is Palestinian, loves his family, hates what has happened to his homeland, but also loves the Lutherans and Garrison Keillor. Keillor is quintessentially Swedish, and therefore brings a smile to a Danes' face who loves everything Scandinavian. He apparently, as well, brings a smile to the face of someone who may not like the Ayatollah Khomeini very much, but who feels very close to his brothers in Palestine.

He and I can 'coexist' with no problem. It's funny cause just last week I went to see the film: "Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World". After watching that and seeing Brooks inadvertantly start a war between Pakistan and India by accident, when he was supposed to be finding out what makes Muslims and Hindus laugh (fictionally, of course) I had to laugh at the current events.

It is my sincere hope that more people will see their way to finding humor in this situation, rather than anger and resentment. I personally know that anger and resentment suck ass. *looks sheepish*

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?

I feel like a caterpillar sitting on a mushroom...

...this whole ordeal should have become a chance for people to become more interested in WHY they believe what they believe,...

Yes. For me as well, it has become an opportunity to see even further that on a smaller scale, I myself am not sure what I truly believe, and also that I need to work on the occasions when I DON'T respond well to negative events in my own life. What's happened should be cause for reflection on more than a global level. Individual as well. I agree.

What you and other people in this thread have said about the fact that a democratic government cannot reasonably be expected to apologize for the statements which it's press makes, I agree with as well.

From what I can tell this shouldn't be as much of an issue as it is.

Bingo! When you have MSN News put up an article asking where the flag-burners get their Danish flags, it begins to seem a little tabloidish, if thats a word. I thought I had fallen down the rabbit hole, and the Queen of Hearts was yelling: "Off with her head, off with her head!" When I read that article, I just laughed out loud at the way they were explaining how there were so many ways for reactionary Muslims to procure Danish flags. For instance: purchase on the internet, do-it-yourself handmade....When they started describing the hand-made flags as having "discontinuous puckering along the seams" and that a "professionally produced flag" would have "grommet holes sewn into the fabric" instead of being wrapped primitively on a pole, I thought: "Oh Please."

When I read further to hear them explain how some so-called homemade Danish flags were actually flags of Savoy, because the crosses were centered, and others were actually flags of Switzerland becauses the crosses were smaller and fatter, and the ease with which a national flag that is predominantly red with a white cross on it can be made I just fell off my chair. They aren't even burning the Danish flag half the time... O_o.

When they started talking about how many flags you could purchase at the "PLO flag shop", and how much they cost, I just about died. And I love how they mentioned that someone from Damascus spent $163 for five Danish flags shipped from the US to be burnt upon arrival???? I guess, if you are reactionary and impulsive (which of course, I can be myself at times...), then you can have a momentary lapse of reasoning, and decide that just this instant it is temporarily okay to support the U.S. economy, when we've been such imperialist pigs recently. I don't know, man....

What do you think? I personally think we should light a big fat doobie and pass it around...HOokahs for everyone!!!!!

If mountain goats like living at high elevations, why do none live in high rise apartment buildings?

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I've seen the cartoons and as far as I am concerned they are spot on. But one has to realize that we humans have an innate ability to tell it like we see it, if others cannot see the reasons behind the things we do then they are living under a rock. There is nothing wrong with creating waves in a community that takes itself so seriously that they are willing to kill every living creature to further their cause.

Let's all convert to Islam, strap bombs to our chests and blow up a bus and kill innocent women and children all in the name of JIHAD.... Die Westerners, you are Zionist Pigs!

Denmark should be applauded for their balls in publishing these cartoons, the sooner people realize that the middle east is a harbor for death and destruction the better.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Denmark should be applauded for their balls in publishing these cartoons, the sooner people realize that the middle east is a harbor for death and destruction the better.

Suppression of any kind sucks, say what you want, speak your mind.

If all the Americans were like you, then the Third World War would be engaged pretty soon. I think that on the contrary we should favor dialogue between religions, and try not to hurt other relion's feelings if we can avoid that.

Suppression sucks, but at the same time you have to be careful about what you say, and be ready to accept the consequences. If you write on a newspaper how Bush sucks and how you wish he died or that he was killed, I am quite sure you might have some kind of trouble afterwards.

Speak your mind freely, but you know how the integralists are like. If you offend them, they don't forget. Instead they will come to your country and blow themselves up, just like they have already done. And by the way, the Americans are Zionist; certainly not the Europeans. You are those who helped Israel, and that mo***ing Sharon. Remember Rabin? He was the good guy, trying to set things straight, and bring peace in the middle east. By whom was he killed? By a Zionist Jew for God's sake!

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

If all the Americans were like you, then the Third World War would be engaged pretty soon.

Not really, I simply voiced my opinion on the matter just as you did, but only difference is I am among the opposite view point. Voicing an opinion and out right killing on it is two totally different things. Just because I feel the cartoons are a good thing does not mean I will strap a bomb to my chest and run into an innocent crowd of muslims. I don't hate muslims, I think they have a bad image in the west and the fact is they have created that bad image for themselves, America or the west is not responsible for it.

Today rioting Pakastani muslims burned American flags in defiance of the cartoons. Yeah right, like we had anything to do with it. But that shows the ignorance in the muslim world. Why don't they try to fix their image? When I think of Muslims/Islam I think of fanatics that strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in crowded markets, on buses or in well populated establishments or by flying airplanes into buildings. It's not that they kill aimlessly, they kill in the name of Islam and JIHAD and the total lack of consideration for anyone but themselves and their ideology.

What we need is more cartoons like this. We need people in small countries like Denmark to stand up and speak their mind. Stop being so damn cowardly and grab a set. I have nothing against Islam or Muslims in general but I'll be damned if you will strap bombs to yourself and blow up innocent women and children professing your love for JIHAD and Allah. That is just not going to happen.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

When I think of Muslims/Islam I think of fanatics that strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in crowded markets, on buses or in well populated establishments or by flying airplanes into buildings. It's not that they kill aimlessly, they kill in the name of Islam and JIHAD and the total lack of consideration for anyone but themselves and their ideology.

What we need is more cartoons like this. We need people in small countries like Denmark to stand up and speak their mind. Stop being so damn cowardly and grab a set. I have nothing against Islam or Muslims in general but I'll be damned if you will strap bombs to yourself and blow up innocent women and children professing your love for JIHAD and Allah. That is just not going to happen.

Not all Muslims are fanatic like you say. I personally know some who are nice, very educated and offer a great exchange of opinions. And, they are against what the fanatics have done. They are against these people blowing themselves up in fact. Even in Egypt there are Muslims, but they are very moderate, and Islam and Christianity can coexist.

Also, I wish I could believe that America never did anything that could move these people to commit terrorist acts, but unfortunately I don't. America has done several things to istigate the most integralist Muslims to hate the West. Actually, this boils down to very long ago, when America wasn't even there (I mean, it was there, but it hadn't been discovered by Columbus yet). The Europeans were responsible at first: not only with the Crusades, but it is also documented how around the 18th century they were still colonizing places in which Muslims lived, and brought Christianity among them. This happened in fact even in Africa: at first it was colonized by the Arabs, and later on the British expanded their egemony even in those territories.

But getting back to America... Like I said, America has given weapons and money exactly to those you are so afraid of now. Bin Laden was given money and weapons by the Americans when they were so afraid of the Russian influence in Afghanistan. And Bin Laden took control of the region mainly with violence. Americans have helped and still help Israel, and I think you can imagine by yourself that the Arabs are not so happy of your hegemony down there. Americans have gone to Iraq AGAINST THE VETO imposed by some European nations, and you have blown up many more civilians with your bombs; many more than those died in the WTC. In all of this, I am sometimes ashamed of having to be in a country that supports Bush. I hate war, and I think that the war in Iraq was totally not necessary.

If you had to kill Saddam, there were other ways. Surely better ways than blowing up everything, killing children and women, and using non conventional weapons. Remember that this is the image that the Muslims they have of us. Americans have used non conventional weapons, which were forbidden because of their toxicity. In 1991 during the first Gulf War something I never understood happened: the Americans or the British (I don't remember which) were given the chance to kill Saddam. Instead, they only shot his arm. I remember that here in Italy we were kind of shocked, because they had this opportunity, and they didn't take it. I still believe that even now there could have been other ways than a war to kill him, but of course a war was better? How many Americans and British soldiers have already died? And how many more will die? But most of all how many Iraqi women and children have died or are without husbands, or sons, or a house to live?

And have you see the British beating up like that those three young guys? Americans have done even worse, if you remember. Now, this is what the Muslims will remember. And while the most moderate ones will hopefully forgive and forget, those who are integralist will not. So, yes, America has done things that could lead them to want revenge. The bad part is that those people will not remember the good acts, but only the bad ones. It's true that now they have a "democracy", but they had to pay a high price for it, and that's precisely what they will remember. They will remember the Americans abusing them, they will remember the British abusing them, they will remember all the bombs dropped on innocent people, who certainly could not defend themselves.

Americans have never had a real war in their territory. True, you could say that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, but that was about it. But I assure you that my grandmother still remembers how an American bomb was dropped on their house during WW2, and how they were homeless after that. And we are Italy. We don't hate Americans, because we realize that they helped us even though our territory was partially destroyed by the Allies bombs (and of course it was partially our fault because we were on the other side :P). But we are Western people, we have different beliefs than the Arabs. The integralist Muslims are those who don't want any kind of ingerence, and they will not forgive or forget America.

Right now, I only pray that those asshead of President you have the bad luck to have voted will not go to war against Iran. While that would be a good way to get rid of some old bombs you have stored, it would definitely be quite bad as far as the whole world is concerned. I hope that Europe will have the balls to prevent this at least this time, or we'll all be screwed.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Right now, I only pray that those asshead of President you have the bad luck to have voted will not go to war against Iran.

I have never voted for president so don't blame the current president on me...

Why did you turn this into a discussion about all the supposed bad things America has done? Americans don't strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowed markets or board buses and blow themselves up. Americans don't board airplanes and purposely fly them into buildings in order to kill thousands of innocent unsuspecting people. America doesn't fight for a religion and the glory of a GOD. We are not a radical fundamentalist nation of crazed individuals with an agenda to knock the world off it's axis.

While you would surely like to paint America as the bad guy it would have been really nice if 9/11/01 would have happened in your country, then we could see your true colors shine through.

Remember this, nobody cares until it effects them.

I am speaking of those that would willingly, knowingly and methodically kill westerners (ie. anyone not directly part of the radical muslim view) without a shadow of a doubt. Defend them if you will, support them but the cartoons that Denmark published is a slap in the face to the very people that allow this stuff to happen and as far as I am concerned we need to start slapping more faces. If the bulk of the islamic community are basically good people then they need to stand up to the people within their ranks that are willing to carry out the atrocities and they need to condemn them. When that happens we will have a better world.

If you want to continue to think America is the problem then sobeit.

If terrorists hit your country tomorrow I'll be laughing my ass off.

The terrorists don't care if you are American and the sooner people realize that the better. If you don't believe me then dig through the news maybe ask the survivors of the Bali bombing a few years ago. America is not the only enemy of radical muslims.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

A radical muslim's definition of zionist: anyone not actively and militantly opposed to the Israli state.

Europe isn't making any moves to get rid of Israel, infact Europe (well frankly the EU) actively trade and maintain good relations with the Isralis.

Therefore, you Europeans are just as heathen.

Logic, sympathy, none of this flies with the radical muslims. Like it was said earlier, they started burning an American flag in protest to the Dutch cartoons. How exactly would the two be related logically?

They aren't, thats the key. Dialogues won't work, they never have. In all the years since Israel has been a nation there have been talks. Has anything happened? No. Nothing happed during Clinton, Reagan, and further on back.

The only talks that will work (as said by our friends the radical muslims) is the abolishment of Israel (and in many cases the death of all Jews, but lets ignore that for the moment). Are you ready to take away the sovreignty of the people living in Israel and forcing them to pickup and move elsewhere (cause they won't still be welcome where they are living for damned sure)?

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

The only talks that will work (as said by our friends the radical muslims) is the abolishment of Israel (and in many cases the death of all Jews, but lets ignore that for the moment). Are you ready to take away the sovreignty of the people living in Israel and forcing them to pickup and move elsewhere (cause they won't still be welcome where they are living for damned sure)?

The abolishment of Israel! Finally someone got it! Israel is not even a state, or it shouldn't be. It was created by the British only to give some kind of "indennity" to the Jews who were exterminated (well those who didn't die of course) by Hitler.

You see, the fact is that those people at first settled in that territory, and immediately they started to complain that they didn't have enough space, and they started to enlarge it on their own. Or at least this is the version that arrived to the Europeans, because maybe the Americans have a different version of the story? The fact is that they weren't satisfied with the little that they had... they wanted MORE.

I am not saying that they would have to leave, but I would oblige them to accept the limes of their territory, and stay within it. If they don't want to do that, and if they don't want to do whatever they can to maintain peace, then screw them. America should get out of it. If the objective is to have peace, either you oblige them to sign a truce (Rabin was going to do that if he hadn't been killed BY AN INTEGRALIST JEW), and put an end to their ideas of having a bigger territory, or you should stop supporting them. Stop giving them money and weapons. Are you aware that Israel has the atom bomb? And do you know who has given those people the resources to build it?

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

It was created by the British only to give some kind of "indennity" to the Jews who were exterminated (well those who didn't die of course) by Hitler.

Britain didn't create the Jewish state. There was an article in their Palestine Mandate however Britain abandoned the mandate in 1947. The UN general assembly created the state we know as Israel in the same year.

You see, the fact is that those people at first settled in that territory, and immediately they started to complain that they didn't have enough space, and they started to enlarge it on their own.

What little they had. You know exactly what the Jews had back then? Nothing. Hitler kicked them out of Europe, most were too poor to immigrate to the US (plus if I think correctly we limited immigration during the war), and noone else was going to take them. We all take for granted we have at least one country that is full of ...'us' for lack of a better term.

Most of the settlers were refuges (however the origionals were Zionists).

but I would oblige them to accept the limes of their territory, and stay within it.

So long as they have any amount of territory that is owned by them, the Arab world is unhappy. Really, thats paramount to saying the Jews would have been fine in Germany at the height of the holocaust if they had just been nice.

Stop giving them money and weapons.

We've given every country money and weapons, including Afganistan. But you don't see the Isralis burning our flag and threatening to tear down our entire country with strapon bombs and radical sects.

You preach religious tolerance but I smell hypocricy. And a hint of anti-semitism...

[EDIT]

So as I was taking my compsci test, and I realized I needed to point out that alot of the land aquired by the origional zionists was purchased. As in the Jews paied hard currency for the land on which they were staying. It covers that in the first wikipedia article, but I think its more towards the top (above the anchor I linked to).

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

We all take for granted we have at least one country that is full of ...'us' for lack of a better term.

Much is the same as it was in 1938, when the Jews recieved their homeland.

From the Jews' perspective, the world can be divided into three groups - those that hate the Jews and want them dead, those that ignore this hatred and aid the haters, and Americans.

The first group consists mostly of Muslim and Arab societies. If ever Arab hatred of Israel was purely political, that time has long passed. Arab, Iranian and other Muslim literature today is as anti-Semitic as Nazi literature was. Hitler's "Mein Kampf" was, as of a few years ago, a best seller in the Middle East. Articles regularly appear there describing how Jews kill non-Jewish children to use their blood in holiday foods. Jews have been expelled from nearly every Arab country. And the deliberate killing of Jews, including Jewish children, is celebrated throughout the Muslim Middle East.

Because Europe fears its immense Muslim population, because of its own anti-Semitism, because it is leftist, because it is dependent on Arab oil (as is the world), and because America supports Israel, Europe is the primary support of those who wish another Jewish Holocaust.

Contrary to what Arab media constantly tell their people, American support of Jews and Israel is not due to "Jewish/Zionist influence." It is due to America's values and to its identification with Jews and Israel. Though religious men founded the United States, the Old Testament played as great a role in America's identity as did the New. Such was the identification with Israel That Ben Franklin saw the parallel between the exodus and early american history. According to Milt Machlin, author of Joshua’s Altar, Franklin “described the independent colony on america’s shores as ‘God’s new Israel,’ and proposed that the Great Seal of the United States should depict Moses with his rod uplifted and the egyptian armies drowning in the sea.” According to Machlin, thomas Jefferson recommended a similiar design.

It seems Franklin never got his way considering the Turkey isnt our national symbol, either.

So here we are, just a few generations after nearly every Jew in Europe was murdered, and the remnant that remains in the New Jersey-sized Jewish state is threatened with extinction from either hatred, apathy, or neglect.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Because Europe fears its immense Muslim population, because of its own anti-Semitism, because it is leftist,

Wow, Prejudices'R'Us!

American support of Jews and Israel is not due to "Jewish/Zionist influence." It is due to America's values

I personally don't have a problem with that. The problem I have with Israel in its current state is that their former leader was a war criminal, Israel has a long history of ignoring international laws and UN resolutions (at least those not vetoed by the USA), and they're illegally occupying Palestinian land and killing Palestinian civilians.

And while we're at it, I'm also not too fond of the Central Consistory of Jews for extorting billions from Swiss banks on the pretext that some abandoned accounts contain money stolen from Jews in WW2, and then 'forgetting' to spread most of that money among actual Holocaust survivors. Also, this extortion was mainly possible thanks to pressure from the US, who conveniently forgot that Nazi Germany's best trading partners were US companies (which of course were never asked for 'compensation' by Mr. D'Amato, as among the profiteers there are people such as Prescott Bush, #41's father and #43's grampa).

So while I don't judge anybody - including Jews - by their religion, the Jews' 'government' appears just as arrogant and self-righteous as that of the USA (and that's saying something). I know many people who feel the same, and maybe that's mistaken for anti-semitism by some.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Because Europe fears its immense Muslim population, because of its own anti-Semitism, because it is leftist,

Excuse me if I laugh! Europe first of all is not leftist at all, at least I don't think that the majority of the states making up the EU are. An example? Italy is "ruled" by a "rightist" Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, who has as ally the party that occupies the spot in the parliament that was once belonging to Mussolini's party. Now, this doesn't mean that they are new fascists, but definitely they're not communists. I personally dislike leftist parties, because of all the damages they have done to Italy, and I don't regret to having voted for Alleanza Nazionale the past election (go Fini!).

Secondly, I think that Spain has a quite rightist government as well (even though it is a monarchy, so I am not very much into how they handle situations with parliament and such). France has a rightist government as well... do I have to go on? Probably Germany could be the only one that doesn't really have a rightist government, but I should ask the Germans since I am not very informed about who is with who over there.

Your assumptions about Europe being leftist are wrong, and they are quite hilarious, if you ask me. We are not anti-Semitic either (aside from some Naziskin guys, who are present in America as well anyway). We don't hate Jews. In Italy we still have several of them, who are totally integrated and respect our constitution just like anybody else.

Also, I don't think that America supports Israel because of American values. While I would like to think that, I don't think it is feasible. America as well as UK have always had a shitty imperialistic expansionistic policy towards other states. America would have never gotten involved in WW2 if it didn't have anything to gain. But of course, this is totally understandable. However, its policy has always been aggressive and imperialistic: do I have to remind you how the Pilgrim Fathers and the first immigrants exterminated the Indians? Or how the minorities (eg. African Americans) have been treated, and in some cases are still being treated? So, no, I don't think that America stands for Israel unless it had something to gain.

All of this however has nothing to do with the Americans. I believe that you are deceived and biased by that ass president you have, who has managed to manipulate people and not only (*cough* also elections *cough*) until now. I am afraid that you'll open your eyes when it's too late, and by then you'll be counting your deads and cuss at the president.

Also, I am in total agreement with null when he says that

So while I don't judge anybody - including Jews - by their religion, the Jews' 'government' appears just as arrogant and self-righteous as that of the USA (and that's saying something). I know many people who feel the same, and maybe that's mistaken for anti-semitism by some.

Guys, I agree with the fact that whatever happened to the Jews was horrid, and that Hitler was a bastard and everything else you want to say about this. But don't you realize that this is now exactly what THEY are doing to the Palestinians? Instead of being happy with the territory they got, they got greedy and went back for more. This is not being anti-semitic. This is just seeing things from an objective point of view. And by the way, nobody is worried about Israel having the Atom Bomb?

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible: over 700 Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran: 0 Number of Arab leaders who visited Jerusalem when it was under Arab rule (1948 to 1967): 1 Number of Arab refugees who fled the land that became Israel: approximately 600,000 Number of Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries: approximately 600,000 Number of U.N. agencies that deal only with Palestinian refugees: 1 Number of U.N. agencies that deal with all the other refugees in the world: 1 Number of Jewish states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 3 Number of Arab or Muslim states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 0

In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700yrs.The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. *No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine.

Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1 Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands Number of Jewish countries: 1 Number of Jewish democracies: 1 Number of Arab countries: 19 Number of Arab democracies: 0

Number of Christian or Jewish prayer services allowed in Saudi Arabia: 0 Number of Muslim prayer services allowed in Israel: unlimited Number of Arabs Israel allows to live in Arab settlements in Israel: 1,250,000 Number of Jews Palestinian Authority allows to live in Jewish settlements in Palestinian Authority: 0

Percentage of people who argue that the Jewish state has no right to exist who also believe some other country has no right to exist: 0 Percentage of people who argue that of all the countries in the world, only the Jewish state has no right to exist and yet deny they are anti-Jewish: approximately 100

Israel is not perfect. Even friends/allies of Israel acknowledge that the government sometimes makes mistakes, and that it has not solved all the problems in its society. Supporters of Israel, such as I, may not emphasize these faults, however, because there is no shortage of groups and individuals who are willing to do nothing but focus on Israel’s imperfections. The public usually has much less access to Israel’s side of the story of its conflict with the Arabs, or the positive aspects of its society.

Israelis themselves are their own harshest critics. If you want to read criticism of Israeli behavior, you do not need to seek out anti-Israel sources, you can pick up any Israeli newspaper and find no shortage of news and commentary critical of government policy. The rest of the world’s media provides constant attention to Israel and the coverage is far more likely to be unfavorable than complimentary.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

That's heartwarming, but let me add another statistic:

Amount of Palestinian terrorists who only turned into terrorists because Israel illegally destroyed the basis of their existence: countlessAmount of extremists on both sides: manyNumber of Israeli governments who were willing to give the Palestinians what they ask for - their own state: 0Percentage of Palestinians who give a sh*t about statistics after they lost their homes and/or families due to illegal Israeli activity: make a guess.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

So long as they have any amount of territory that is owned by them, the Arab world is unhappy.

Well, tough luck for them. Confucius says, you can't always get what you want. The Jews are people too, and they have to live somewhere.

But it would be nice of the Israeli government, and the ultra-right settlers, to be a bit nicer to the Palestinians and give back the land they stole from them. Maybe some of the Palestinians who have lost everything will then change their minds about blowing themselves up in Tel Aviv in the name of resistance.Peaceful coexistence is a nice buzzword to throw around, but it's only possible if both parties play nice.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Maybe some of the Palestinians who have lost everything will then change their minds about blowing themselves up in Tel Aviv in the name of resistance.

I doubt it. This issue goes far beyond political conflicts- reaches deeply into their marred religious and emotional ideologies.

Most Palestinians who adopt terror in the hope of either “ending the occupation” or destroying Israel do so because they freely choose murder over any other option. Palestinian terrorists also use children, however, to do their dirty work.

you can't always get what you want. The Jews are people too, and they have to live somewhere.

With that in mind:

The government of Israel has agreed to a two-state solution to the conflict with the Palestinians. Once Israel agreed to give the Palestinians the independence they say they want, they shifted their complaint to the size of the state they were being offered. Many "moderates" who say they can coexist with Israel, have adopted the refrain that Israel is doing the Palestinians no favors by offering them a state in the disputed territories because it is asking them to accept a state in only 22% of Palestine while Israel keeps 78%.

This is a very convincing point to show the unfairness of the Palestinians plight and to suggest Israel's peace propositions are ungenerous; that is, unless you know the history of Palestine and recognize that the truth is exactly the reverse.

Historic Palestine included not only Israel and the West Bank, but also all of modern Jordan. It is Israel, including the disputed territories, that is only 22% of Palestine. If Israel were to withdraw completely from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it would possess only about 18%. And from Israel's perspective, it is the Zionists who have made the real sacrifice by giving up 82% of the Land of Israel. In fact, by accepting the UN's partition resolution, they were prepared to accept only about 12% of historic Israel before the Arab states attacked and tried to destroy the nascent state of Israel.

Meanwhile, of the approximately 9 million Palestinians worldwide, three-fourths live in historic Palestine.

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

All Palestinians are too evil to change their mind and decide against violence?

No. Not all Palestinians need to change their minds to begin with. Some recognize Israel as a legitament government in a legitament state. However, you dont see or hear those types because of the fear from their own government.

One of the principal deterrents to speaking out against Palestinian irredentism and terror in the Palestinian Authority is the threat of being murdered. By the end of the first intifada in the early 1990s, more Palestinians were killed by their fellow Palestinians than died in clashes with Israeli security forces. Usually those seeking peace or an end to terror are labeled "collaborators" and, if they are lucky, arrested by the Palestinian Authority. The unlucky ones are murdered...aimed at sending the message that a similar fate awaits anyone who dares cross those seeking Israel's destruction.

However, some Palestinian Arabs (including their leaders)sometimes let down their guard and acknowledge how they prefer Israel to the Palestinian Authority. Some Palestinians just appreciate the benefits of elections, rule of law, minority rights, freedom of speech, and a higher standard of living which Israel embodies.

But as long as statements, such as the following, are broadcast on Palestinian television, violence will continue: "God willing, this unjust state [of] Israel, will be erased; this unjust state the United States will be erased; this unjust state Britain will be erased."

Now are ye undeceived! Welcome, again, my children, to the communion of your race!

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

But as long as statements, such as the following, are broadcast on Palestinian television, violence will continue: "God willing, this unjust state Israel, will be erased; this unjust state the United States will be erased; this unjust state Britain will be erased."

Wow, these guys seriously need to get a hobby or something. Maybe they should take up bowling.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I was generalising. It's just that the muslims upbringing seems to be aimed at making them into religious zealots. It's hard to make a logical conversation with one, since he won't accept your opinion one bit, don't express any logical opinion and won't give up until you go away.

The problem is that it's that their religion has too great influence in their culture. It's going too far into their politics, and what's even worse people don't even wonder why. They just listen to their leaders without thinking for themselves.

It's so easier to go talk to a wall. In general. Or it might just be my (unlucky) personal experience, as i met a few of them.

In my country certain person with communist party roots has a controversial weekly newspaper. When john paul ii, the previous pope, was seriously dropping on health in 2004, he wrote something like that "that old fool should not shame himself (and us) any longer. It's quit or die" (not really an accurate translation, as it was originally an awfully malicious phrase).

Nobody tried to beat him up or attack post-commies, but people really did hate him for this. He was just given a court trial for insulting the pope.

Our culture allows a certain degree of freedom about religion, whilst the muslim does not.

"Life is a queue. You come in, hang around for a bit, get some service, then depart."

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

If I read the article correctly, the issue here was not entirely because of what she said, but also because of the fact that she identified herself as a government employee. If she had written the letter as a private citizen, I don't think there would have been such an outcry since I read letters as bad or worse everytime I read my paper's editorial section. While some will say this shouldn't make a difference, I have to disagree. Working for the government is like working for any other organization. When you do so, you have a responsibility when acting as an agent of that organization to act in a way which is not detrimental to the organization or the reputation thereof. Because she identified herself as a VA nurse (a government agent), the action taken by her employer is not surprising, though possibly slightly an overreaction.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

The offending cartoon has been around for several months, only now recieving notariaty as extremist muslims begin to riot violently (about 10 deaths since 10th of February) and commit acts of arson. These cartoons have been reprinted numerious times, so based on your logic we need to kick Scandanavia, Belgium, France, Germany, the UK, and the USA, and just about every other country in Europe out of the Olympics.Wikipedia

The modern, secular society is rejected by some Muslims. They demand a special position, insisting on special consideration of their own religious feelings. It is incompatible with contemporary democracy and freedom of speech, where you must be ready to put up with insults, mockery and ridicule. It is certainly not always attractive and nice to look at, and it does not mean that religious feelings should be made fun of at any price, but that is of minor importance in the present context. [...] we are on our way to a slippery slope where no-one can tell how the self-censorship will end. That is why Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten has invited members of the Danish editorial cartoonists union to draw Muhammad as they see him. [...]

I particularly like this quote by Cox and Forkum (granted they are conservative political cartoonists, but)

In other words, let's not go "too far" and openly criticize those who would kill us for exercising our freedom to criticize Islam -- we'll only make it worse! Yeah, right. And let's make western woman wear burqas so they won't provoke rapists.

How far are you willing to allow free speech to errode? Free speech is free speech, there's no inbetweens for an inbetween becomes limited speech.

It is in the Danish constitution that "Anyone is entitled to in print, writing and speech to publish his or hers thoughts, but yet under responsibility provided by the courts. Censorship and other preventive measures can never again be introduced.". So why are we attacking the Country as a whole for not taking actions it cannot legally take? Lets make them apoligize for something they can't control and then ask them to set a new system of repressions and controls to prevent future occurrances. That'd be great, cause now the Danish are stuck outside the olympics and the EU (which would actually excite me, but its not me). If they do censor, they have to throw out their constitution and bam, Orwell's bad dream gets another foothold.

Criticism and satire are legitimate forms of thinking. One should take in all sides (offensive or not) when discussing a topic, but you know what, screw that. Who wants to end up like Theo van Gough? Obviously we are allowed to bash christianity and its bad sides (see inquisition, anti-gay), but not Islam, oh no. Lets just ignore the unpleasantries of Islam and treat them with the respect they don't even considder giving us.

As if the radicals need these cartoons as an excuse to attack the Olympics. It's the fucking Olympics, it's been bombed for less (somethign it or any participatory country didn't do or say, see 1996 bombings).

And by the way turns out that the burned (not burning, the burning had finished) Quoran was a copy caught in a house fire and was left outside a mosque by a muslim so it could recieve a proper 'burial' so to speak. There was a note that flew away in the wind. Naturally noone hears about this. I'll need to find my link however, so I won't be offended if you take this fact with a grain of salt.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I understand some individuals on this board do not find a few of my let it all out, balls to the wall, Gonzo type writing as excellent post material. I on the other hand am my biggest fan.... (Patting self on back, lol) Believe me, there are posters on here who may find my posts biased in nature. Bias is a cloudy word, and writers from all walks of life received that label time and again. Opinions are like assho1es, everyone has one. In my opinion my style is like the Forrest Gump box of chocolates quote.....you never know what you're gonna get.

With this board, we all may stomp our feet down and profess what we feel about whatever it is we feel passionately for, I love creativity and various opinions. I am grateful for not being told what I can or cannot say, do, eat, feel, etc.

Recently, well I'll take that back----->for quite some time now the Muslim world has encountered their fair share of flak. I'll admit, and you the reader will see through my writings that I am not a fan of the Muslim nation as a whole. Do I hate Muslims? By all means NO. Hate is a strong word many people throw around mercilessly. Hate creates violence and untruths. I may dislike many of their views or followers, however I do not hate. Every religious group has their share of "step children".

This brings me to my point, and I'll make it brief. When Muslim cleric's call for a million dollar reward/bounty on the Danish cartoonists, this has gone too far. These Muslims who are escalating the situation have fallen and bumped their heads with this one. As time passes, I am left with a feeling of pity. Why? I pity this religious group because they seem to have the most ignorant people who love to weave the word into their own extreme interpretation. The Muslim group has suppressed their people for so long with these twisted beliefs, a monster has been created as a result.

I may receive flak for previous posts, and as a result my rating may go down on certain writings where I just let it all hang. Yet, I'm not calling for death. I don't find cartoons poking fun at Christians or Jesus funny. At the same time I understand that every person on this earth will be judged one by one in some final way, and I in return do not need to kill the cartoonist who poked fun of Jesus. This isn't even an eye for an eye.

The Muslim world should be looking more at themselves and their "step child" extremists and be ashamed at what they currently see. Wrong is wrong.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Andromacha is upset at Danish cartoons lampooning Islam, blames all Danes for that, calls the prime minister an 'asshole' and wishes Denmark dead.

I pay tribute here to the cartoons for they _ and Andromacha's strident reaction to them _ show how we in the west can get things very, very right!

We can buy media whose content is so offensive, so crude it gets Andromacha upset enough to commit a wild, angry rant to the blogosphere triggering a good discussiuon.

If Andromacha lived in, say, Syria would she be 'upset' at regular tv broadcasts there demonizing Jews? Would she vote Syria out of the Olympics? Call the president an 'asshole'?

Perhaps, yes, for she writes under an assumed name.

Would Syria let her rant stand on the Internet? Unlikely.

Would Andromacha march with 75,000 angry Syrians through Damascus demanding those anti-Jewish TV shows be pulled off the air immediately? Not, if she wants to live a little longer!

The Danish cartoons are in a narrow sense about Islam. More broadly, they and the protests they have triggered are about how unfree many people are in the world today.

May Day parades in Moscow and across Eastern Europe used to feature tens of thousands 'spontaneously' praising the working class, communism and international solidarity every May 1.

Where are they now? Well, the moment they could they voted with their feet fleeing from the Organized Religion that was the Soviet Union.

Iraq is a mess because Shiites and Sunnis are locked into Organized Religion, killing each other in astounding numbers. (Have you noticed how low the US casualty toll is?) Iraqis don't care about Americans. They carry huge guns but will leave some day. It's 'the other' _ shiite or sunni _ who is the problem.

This is uniquely cruel manifestation of Organized Religion: your country is invaded so you irgnore the invader, but kill your neighbor for that bastard is the wrong kind of Muslim.

Before we wish Denmark off the map, let's celebrate diversity _ a fragile, upsetting asset.

In reply to Lookeast

Before we wish Denmark off the map, let's celebrate diversity _ a fragile, upsetting asset.

Thanks for your contribution, Andromacha!

Lookeast

There are several ways to celebrate diversity, and being insulting or offensive to some other people or cultures is NOT, and I repeat IS NOT something acceptable.

I stand by what I said, even though I can partially understand that the Danish did not mean to create the mess that they created with those t-shirts. I also think though that in a period of international crisis - and I don't think that people could argue the fact that this is a moment of crisis, at least generally speaking - it is not exactly a smart move to act in such an irresponsible way.

Since I am European, I do understand the position of Denmark and those t-shirts, but I cannot accept that when the Muslims living in Denmark felt offended by them, the Christian Danish said that that was Denmark, and if they didn't like it they could as well go. And, unless several European newspapers are biased, they did say something along those lines. Now, you cannot just say that. I mean, those Muslims are Danish themselves. They believe in a different God, their women don't have the same rights that we have, but I do think that we should respect them for what they are.

I am a woman. I can imagine, only imagine, what it might be like to be constantly beaten up by your husband, and not having freedom. I would not tolerate living like that, but for the way I was raised. I mean, we Europeans, or anybody living in the West world, have been raised with freedom of any kind (aside from the African Americans, who had to fight to gain what they have), so I cannot conceive living in different conditions.But that's their culture, and we cannot just force them to change. It would not be fair. Do you think you would like to have someone coming to your house telling you that it is mandatory for you to wear pink briefs/boxers? I think you wouldn't be so enthusiastic to accept that.

While I cannot imagine nor understand why a woman would deliberately choose to live in such conditions, or people to be without rights, at the same time I think that we can't just go in there and offend them or impose the western way by force.

Lately I have read some books for my thesis. They are about colonization in Africa, and in particular in Ghana. Well, Ghana was at first colonized by the Arabs. They were called by the Ghanaian "predators", because they went in there, and they obliged the Africans to take their religion, and accept all the rules imposed by them. But sadly enough this wasn't even the worst thing. Europeans came after them. "Destroyers", that's how they called them. They perpetrated horrendous crimes: they raped women, they did horrid things to them, and not lastly they imposed Christianity on them. These books I have read tell about this horrific reality, and I can't say that I did not feel ashamed of what the Whites have done, the crimes we have committed. If you want to know exactly what I am talking about, please refer to Ayi Kwei Armah's "Two Thousand Seasons". It's a wonderful book. And yes, that talks about different realities, and how a people can simply destroy another without thinking twice.

I think that after reflecting on what that books tells you, you might agree with me that offending people because of their culture and/or religion is just one of the many ways we have to subdue the others.

Re: In reply to Lookeast

Andromacha, I see nothing wrong in insulting and being offensive. The point is NOT to take offense.

I find rap music offensive. And people who don't use deodorant. And excessive cellphone yacking. And packed subways. (Sometimes, when I am really unlucky, I get all of the above together!)So what to do? Ban bad music? Packed subways? Cellphones? Ask smelly people to apologize?

We only have an 'international crisis' because some people take offense at a cartoon. More correctly: far too many people give far too much meaning to a few drawings that appeared many months ago in a conservative Danish rag that is read by 0.0005% of the world population.

(Frankly, I liked the one showing a suicide bomber arriving in heaven where he is told: 'No! No, more! We are out of virgins!' What a bummer for that guy! Memo to me: what happens if a Muslim woman blows herself up and some random innocent people. Do she get to go to heaven and have a good time virgin males?)

Yes, in Denmark (by the way, I am NOT Danish) Danish Muslims were basically told 'this is Denmark' and if you don't like it, you can go. In other words, you have a choice: If you stay I'll put up with your intolerant, undemocratic religion and you'll put up with my offensive sense of humor, my bad music, my refusal to buy a 1.70 euro stick of deodorant and my packed subways.

Or you leave! Which raises an important question: How many Danish Muslims actually left over the cartoons? Has there been one Muslim guy who came home one day said to his wife: 'Honey, we are outta here! I will not stay one day longer in this godforsaken country! We are off to Saudi Arabia! Or Pakistan. Or Libya. Or North Korea! I'll go to any country where they draw cartoons I like.

Yes, we need to respect Muslim and they need to respect us. We can both leave, yet neither does. You touched on the reason for that when you said you would not stand being beaten by your husband and having no freedom. 'Why would a woman deliberately choose to live in such conditions?' Easy: they don't choose, especially not in Mulsim societies. Women don't have a choice!

I loved the 'predators' and 'destroyers' analogy you told, but be careful not to take responsibility for what 'whites' did centuries ago in Africa. You were not there. And you would not misbehave the way they did. (By the way, I'll read Ayi Kwei Armah's "Two Thousand Seasons").

So is offending people because of their culture and/or religion a form of subjugating them?

Yes, in a benign sort of way, it is. No eyes are being ripped out. No hands are cut off, but being 'offended' can be scary, I think. And what a good thing that is! I'd hate to live in a society where we cannot offend. That would be an odd, unnatural, imbalanced and _ ultimately - intolerant society. I think Danish Muslims are coming to that realization very fast.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Well, I read about half of all the posts, can't go on any more today, maybe tomorrow(nasty feaver).

Free speech it WAS! I have also seen cartoons and jokes printed for Christians, Jews, Budhists and Satansits in various papers.

Relegion should have no baring what so ever in state politics. No one should have a legal right to force someone to only publish positive or negative articles on any religion.

If someone said or wrote or drew something insulting(not lies, just personal views) to a religion, that CAN NOT be reason to burn a nations flag or dress up like a sucide bomber and encurage violence(incident in UK), cause harm and death to the people of different religion(North Africa, Middle East), or to do anything malicius other than respond maybe in the same way(eye for an eye, not the smartest thing) or BE CIVILISED and expess your disaprovement in a non violent way(both verbal and physical)!

And frankly, if they don't like (mostly)accepted standards of behaviour, they have notting off interest in Europe, US, or any other country that enforces simililar standards!

NOTE: CONTRAVERSIAL! (I wont blame you for flaming me)

So, yes if Islam gets in the way of a civilised society, IT AIN'T WELCOME!

SAME GOES FOR ALL OTHER RELIGIONS!

Sure protest that your religion is under attack, I don't mind.Burn my country's flag(even if I'm not the greatest patriot in the world), and I want you arested! Encourage violence, or make a threat of violence, and I want you arested, locked up, and key thrown away!

Europan societies developed their rules, imiggrants as all good guests should respect the rules of the house of their host.

I'm not really up to writing any more, so I'll continue tommorow.I have a lot more to write here...

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Burn my country's flag(even if I'm not the greatest patriot in the world), and I want you arested!

Ahem, what about the Danish who burned the Koran in Kopenhavn? Do you think your criteria apply there too, or maybe they are somehow immune to it?

And you know I am Italian, and Catholic. Just so you know that I am not saying things because I am a Muslim, and I feel offended. But I do think that your statements:

Burn my country's flag(even if I'm not the greatest patriot in the world), and I want you arested! Encourage violence, or make a threat of violence, and I want you arested, locked up, and key thrown away!

seem a little violent, don't you think? Especially for someone who seems to profess to be against violence. They burned Danish flag, the Danish burned their Korans. I think it is equally bad, as the flag and the sacred book are both an important symbol. If anything, the Danish are even more to be blamed. Why? Well, because in Europe we are "civilized", and in theory we should respect other people's beliefs. That doesn't happen in Muslimland. Therefore, they might be more used to such incivil acts, but we definitely have no excuse. Those Danish who burned the Korans have no excuse.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I personaly don't like violence, but does it mean that I should be pacifist all my life and let men with questionable motives run a mock in my home(I'm not Danish, don't live in Denmark)?

Ahem, what about the Danish who burned the Koran in Kopenhavn? Do you think your criteria apply there too, or maybe they are somehow immune to it?

They should have been arested and charged with spreding hate aganst a religion.

seem a little violent, don't you think? Especially for someone who seems to profess to be against violence. They burned Danish flag, the Danish burned their Korans. I think it is equally bad, as the flag and the sacred book are both an important symbol.

Do you consider violence is when police is used to write tickets to drunk drivers or arest a white collar criminal? I don't think so. They conduct the letter of the law that's decided by the majority in a democratic process. They may not always do their job to the letter(though they should), but I don't consider it to be violent. As for that eye for an eye approach, I said it wasn't the smartest thing, witch you as a Christian proubaubly know.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

Yeah, there were only a few million people back in 1938 that started an anti-jew and racial 'curing' movement that started an entire world war.

Ahem, and what are the Jews doing right now? Exactly the same thing. And quite frankly I am fed up with hearing of the shoah and how we should pity the Jews and how it was bad and everything.

Don't get me wrong, yes it was BAD!! But now they are unfortunately doing exactly the same thing to Palestinians. Bombing, raising up walls, and generally speaking invading their territories.

Sometimes I am ashamed to say that I would wonder what could have happened if Hitler had actually managed to kill them all :( I mean, it is horrid of course, and I don't even want to really consider the possibility. I hate the nazists or the fascists (even though I gotta admit that Mussolini did good things to Italy before he started acting crazy), but right now there is a people who is doing the same thing to another people, only in a different way.

And then we get upset that the Palestinian terrorists go to the Jewish territory and blow themselves up. Do you read how many palestinians die everyday because of Jewish bombs, missles or other things?

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Jew. I believe in respect; at all cost. I respect the Jews who live here, and quite frankly I don't care what religion you are as long as you're a good person (I don't care if you're an atheist either). However, what I cannot stand is the fact that the Jews received part of the Palestinian territory from GB, because it was a British protectorate. I mean, so far so good you know... people probably expected them to stay in the territory given to them, and be happy. But NO! They want MORE. They want more of that Palestinian territory! They expand. They start building camps outside their territory. America started helping them out in this, by providing nukes, weapons and money. A Jew there can afford to live with 100 dollars a day; a Palestinian has 10 times less.

Now, maybe my opinion is the not very popular one, however if I were the president ass of the United States, I would start removing the support to the Jews. If they want to go on with this situation, they should do it alone. I am quite sure that if they stopped receiving money and weapons, they wouldn't be able to keep it up.

Quite frankly I am really fed up to hear that the Islamic religion is the bad one, that they want to kill all the Christians, and that they are going to invade the rest of the world. This is just crap that our presidents, prime ministers, or people in power have been telling us to justify a war against Iraq, Afghanistan, and more generally the middle east. I only pray that Bush won't keep this up, or it won't be long and America will declare war to Iran. And at that point, let's only hope that Europe didn't sign any treaty that says that we have to help America, because otherwise the III world war would be start right there.

So please please stop saying such idiotic things about the Muslims and the Jews too. Right now the enemy are not the Muslims, but ourselves. It is us who is breaking their balls, and it is obvious that they will react. What did you expect? Did you really think that America could have invaded Iraq and everybody, really everybody, would have been all cheery and happy? Right now, my problem are not the Muslims, but the Jews. They keep killing Muslims, in particular civilians, kids, babies... heck if a people were to do this to Italians, I am sure that we would react. And that's precisely what the Palestinians are doing to a people who want to subtract the territories where they have been living since the diaspora. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Re: Denmark should get its shitty ass out of EU!!

I wholeheartedly agree with what you've written, and I salute you for standing up and not taking the easy way out. I'm sick of the Israelis playing the victim card, too: Oh, we slaughtered a couple thousand Palestinian civilians and illegally took their land? But we're the victims! Yes, we are! Just yesterday two Palestinians whose families we killed and whose land we took blew themselves up in Tel Aviv and killed three Israeli civilians. What, that's not enough? All right - Holocaust! Holocaust! Holocaust!

The problem is, as long as the USA keep blocking UN resolutions to do something about this, I don't think a lot will change for the better. And it's not just Bush, they've always done this.

(By the way, every country and every continent has its skeletons in the closet. Hitler may have been a German, but that didn't stop non-European war profiteers from doing business with the Nazis - ask George W. Bush how his grandfather got so wealthy. Also, WWII and the Holocaust were more than 60 years ago; events such as ethnic cleansing in Africa and the Balkans, the Vietnam war or overturning democratically elected governments and installing guys with names like Pinochet or Hussein are much closer to the present, yet most of those who are quick to scream 'Hitler' are less than enthusiastic about mentioning them.)

Siding?

Well I don't think it helps anything to side with one side or the other. This is precisely what is causing the problem to begin with. One family gets blown to pieces by an extremist israeli, and that inspires a generation of young future kamikazis to return the favor in a few years. This in turn causes more israeli extremist kamikazis, etc.

I'm not saying Israelis are right no more than I'm saying the Palestinians are right. I'm just saying it should stop, and as history has shown time and time again, sometimes the only way for a conflict to 'stop' is through war, because people can't stop any other way.

Most israelis and palestinians are completely innocent, but have a strong hatred towards the other side. Hatred is a learned trait, and I for one would like to encourage these 'lessons' to stop.

"If I die of a heart attack eating bacon, I'll be a happy man." -My father