It would be nice to see some raw data from them instead of a press-release. For example:

What is the geographic distrubition of L1335 in Scotland?

If L1335+ makes up 10% of men in scotland what are the other major haplogroups?

Given that L1335 is a subclade of DF13 if it's really a SNP that arose in a pictish population then it shows at the least that the Picts were closely related to surronding "peoples" who we know spoke one form or another of a Celtic language (Brythonic of Goidelic -- given dominance of DF13 clades in said populations)

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+. In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection). The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

These clans are all descendants of the Belgic tribes which emigrated to southern Ireland and England c. 50 BC, being driven from their homeland by the Romans.

I would strongly question any Pictic ethnicity for these clans. Note the Campbells come into the picture here also as a Belgic clan possibly resettling originally in Wales?

It would be nice to see some raw data from them instead of a press-release. For example:

What is the geographic distrubition of L1335 in Scotland?

If L1335+ makes up 10% of men in scotland what are the other major haplogroups?

Given that L1335 is a subclade of DF13 if it's really a SNP that arose in a pictish population then it shows at the least that the Picts were closely related to surronding "peoples" who we know spoke one form or another of a Celtic language (Brythonic of Goidelic -- given dominance of DF13 clades in said populations)

-Paul(DF41+)

I agree, and I think your questions are excellent.

Is L1335 most frequent in the old homelands of the Picts? If not, then why should we believe it is a Pictish marker?

L21 is roughly 50-60% of Scots y-dna, at least according to Busby et al. If L1335 is about 10% of Scots y-dna, that means about 80% of the L21 in Scotland is something else. I know a pretty fair proportion of our DF41 guys have Scots ancestry, as do most of the other L21+ subclades.

ScotlandsDNA needs some ancient Pictish y-dna tested L1335+ to make its case. That's not likely to happen anytime soon, since we're lucky when we get ancient y-dna tested M269+ , or any ancient y-dna test results at all.

My own suspicion is that L1335 is old enough to have been present among a number of the old Celtic tribes, and not just the Picts.

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+. In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection). The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+. In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection). The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

But L1335+ is CTS4466- !

Kind regards,

Morten

The question is though how old is CTS4466 as a SNP, I could be wrong but I believe the TMRCA for South Irish cluster was on order of 1500 years. If that's the case it's quite possible that you could have one lineage in DF13 that spilt say 500BC and produced two lines. eg. one where CTS4466 would later arise in, and one where L1335 would later arise.

I'd be curious if someone would run a TMRCA calculation between the two clusters first.

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+. In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection). The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

But L1335+ is CTS4466- !

Kind regards,

Morten

The question is though how old is CTS4466 as a SNP, I could be wrong but I believe the TMRCA for South Irish cluster was on order of 1500 years. If that's the case it's quite possible that you could have one lineage in DF13 that spilt say 500BC and produced two lines. eg. one where CTS4466 would later arise in, and one where L1335 would later arise.

I'd be curious if someone would run a TMRCA calculation between the two clusters first.

-Paul(DF41+)

Don't forget that the Scots Modal is probably quite a bit younger than L1335.

Looking quickly Scots Modal and Southern Irish only seem to share two off modal values at 111 loci, personally I don't see a connection.

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+. In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection). The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

These clans are all descendants of the Belgic tribes which emigrated to southern Ireland and England c. 50 BC, being driven from their homeland by the Romans.

I would strongly question any Pictic ethnicity for these clans. Note the Campbells come into the picture here also as a Belgic clan possibly resettling originally in Wales?

Would you consider adding the Clan MacLaren Project to your analysis? There are a lot of L1065 types there.

My guess you are talking about something different than the scots modal. Clan Gregor dates to the Ian Cam c. 1350. The convergence of 1065+ is c. 1000 AD. How do you define the Scots Modal; what kind of Scots does it contain?

My guess you are talking about something different than the scots modal. Clan Gregor dates to the Ian Cam c. 1350. The convergence of 1065+ is c. 1000 AD. How do you define the Scots Modal; what kind of Scots does it contain?

As I said that was from memory however 1350 and 1500 aren't exactly far apart

(Edit I was talking 1500 yrs ago, 1000 AD is too recent in my view, Scot's Modal may be young but it's not a child :)

I define the Scots modal by the off modal values

391 = 10389-2 = 17YCAII = 19-24531 = 12

717 = 21635 = 24

There are other values as well and obviously it's a cluster so you can't be rigid but they tend to pop out of the screen at you mixed in with other folk.

That makes more sense, 1500 BP is c. 500 AD; which is the time (historically) oraccording to legend the Dal Riadic Scots migrated to Scotland from Ireland. There were three clans (tribes) and they are the origin of the Scottis in Scotland (again according to legend).

I believe they were descendants of the Belgic tribes who were driven out of Gaul by the romans and settled in southern England/Ireland c. 50 BC. Note over 37 dys loci the 1065 haplotype differs from the S Irish modal by only 6 mutations. Convergence suggests they merge c. 200BC to 0 AD?

The combined 37 dys loci modal of 1065 probably is close to the following: 13,24,14,10,11-14,12,12,12,13,13,30,18,9-10,11,11,25,15,19,30,15-15-17-17,11,12,19-24,15,15,18,17,37,-38,12,12.

That makes more sense, 1500 BP is c. 500 AD; which is the time (historically) oraccording to legend the Dal Riadic Scots migrated to Scotland from Ireland. There were three clans (tribes) and they are the origin of the Scottis in Scotland (again according to legend).

I believe they were descendants of the Belgic tribes who were driven out of Gaul by the romans and settled in southern England/Ireland c. 50 BC. Note over 37 dys loci the 1065 haplotype differs from the S Irish modal by only 6 mutations. Convergence suggests they merge c. 200BC to 0 AD?

I did an interclade calc @ 67 using L1335 all compared against the South Irish cluster that came out at about 1000 yrs BC

unless I've missed something, that is the STR Haplotype of L 1065? I use Ysearch XREMB for the S Irish 37 STR's haplotype: 13,24,14,10,11,15,12,12,11,13,13,29,17,9-10,11,11,24,15,19,29,15-15-17-17,11,11,19-23,15,16,18,17,36-38, 13,12.

we now have two haplotypes which differ by 9 single step mutations. How much time of separation do you compute between these two modals?

I did a quick estimate on the time myself and got about 1000 years, putting the S Irish/Dalriadic tie to about 0 AD. Note: I used 2 haplotypes, if you only use 1 it is 2000 years!

unless I've missed something, that is the STR Haplotype of L 1065? I use Ysearch XREMB for the S Irish 37 STR's haplotype: 13,24,14,10,11,15,12,12,11,13,13,29,17,9-10,11,11,24,15,19,29,15-15-17-17,11,11,19-23,15,16,18,17,36-38, 13,12.

we now have two haplotypes which differ by 9 single step mutations. How much time of separation do you compute between these two modals?

I did a quick estimate on the time myself and got about 1000 years, putting the S Irish/Dalriadic tie to about 0 AD. Note: I used 2 haplotypes, if you only use 1 it is 2000 years!

Out of curiosity how did you calculate TMRCA using only one haplotype ?