Why do we hear so many reports about women in Islamic countries being punished, even executed, for adultery, while the man involved gets off with a slap on the wrist?

And why do some Islamic cultures punish women who are victims of rape or incest? Shouldn't the perpetrators of these crimes be punished, not the victims?

I discussed this topic in the earlier posts in this thread. Victims should not be punished... if they are then the whole community will suffer for it. That's why much of these cultures are struggling with poverty and destitution. The Creator will only bless those who follows His way.

In regards to adultery, just remember, it is against the religion to execute someone for adultery. If a man and women commit adultery in a public setting in an islamic community where 4 people witness the act, it is required that the community leaders punished these two individuals publicly - but not execute them.

Thanks. Sorry to make you repeat yourself; I confess I didn't have the energy to read the whole thread.

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

2. This second question I hate to even ask as it makes me sad. If a Muslim even seemed to be a genuine friend to a non-Muslim, or perhaps even if they considered themselves friends to a non-Muslim despite the apparent wording of the passages above, considering the following do you think it would be fully rational for a non-Muslim to regard a Muslim as trustworthy as a friend?

"Know this, that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

Of course such does not prevent a Christian from being a friend to a Muslim even if their friendship is reciprocated by duplicity or even persecution/hatred/subjugation etc. as such is our duty before God:

Matthew 5:43-48: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

1 Jn 4:7-8: "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Matthew 7:12: "So in everything do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

3. Finally, since the teaching of the above three verses from the Bible seems to contradict what the Qur'an teaches about how believers should treat other people whether friend or enemy at the most basic level, would you say that these teachings are corruptions of the original teaching of Christ? Would you say this even though there is not a single early manuscript of the New Testament, or early lectionary, or teaching from the earliest fathers, or early version of the New Testament (translations of the New Testament into other languages) that has the slightest hint of any contrary teaching by Jesus Christ?

Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

Thanks again for your time.

Also, while it is well-known that the Shii'ites do not consider the Sahaba in general to be Muslim, especially the famous Sahaba (e.g. Abu Bakr, Omar, and Othman), I have heard some Shia say that some of the Sahaba were true believers that remained Muslims after Muhammad's death. Who were these Sahaba who remained loyal to Islam (from the Shi'ite POV)? What were their names?

Thanks again.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 09:04:33 AM by Severian »

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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

If you don't mind me asking, but did you study science, math, engineering, ...etc?If you did, do you remember studying complex numbers.... like i = sqrt(-1) . You know, most people just accept that sqrt(-1) is ok and just use it. But for a professional mathematicians who're doing research at the front line, will need to rationalize the meaning of sqrt(-1)..... and so they'll have to study the history of the subject, to see where the idea came from and how it was widely accepted. Btw, complex numbers means that the number is 2-dimentional, where the real part is a vector on the x-axis, and the imagenary part is a vector on the y-axis, and the resultant vector is the complex number.

Well, I am a professional mathematician, according to the Regents of the University of Maryland College Park, and I can tell you we didn't study this, nor did we need to. Mathematical concepts are, after all, utterly abstract, so it is not necessary to explore the history of the field's development to understand them. Indeed, often it is confusing to study them that way, because frequently the early versions of an idea are not well-formed. That tends to be even more true of natural science, as there is a lot of bad understanding in the history of most fields (which is, after all, why they progress in the first place).

Well, one question is: Is it the function of the book to refer to everyone who may have been historically involved in a subject or is it focused on a narrower field? Why should any book on optics have a few sentences on Al-Hazen? What about references to the ancient Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans who did things with Optics? From my point should I expect that the English Bishop Robert Grosseteste or Roger Bacon be mentioned in optics texts because they did work in that area? If the purpose of a text is to instruct on a particular subject technically, the writer(s) may not think that historical background is necessary.

Those who truly want to develop an intuition for a scientific subject, like optical physics....... it's very important to study the history of the subject. To understand where these formulas originated. You don't really learn by just memorizing a few equations and not making the effort to find out where they come from.

Al-Hazen is widely believed to be the father of optics.. because he most likely made the most non-trivial contributions to the field. Sure, scientist from ancient civilizations made theories on the subject... but Al-Hazen discredit most of those ideas with simple arguments and revolutionaries the subject with different way of thinking.

"most likely made"? According to whom? By whom is Al-Hazen "believed to be the father of optics"? Can you give names please? As I wrote there were many before him who worked in this area. What do you mean by "non-trivial contributions" please? In science any advance or bit of knowledge is useful. Can you state in your own words what Al-Hazen "discredited" or revolutionized?

Quote from: fibonacci

Again, historical background is very necessary to develop an intuition for the subject.

I would say that knowing the historical background of a subject is very necessary to have an understanding and not just "intuition". Real history is based on facts of time and place and persons and sources, it is not independent of reasoning or data. And, no offense in meant, but you have not presented support for some of your ideas or have changed them when presented with countering information such as that about the copy of the Quran in Uzbekistan.

Quote from: fibonacci

But for a professional mathematicians who're doing research at the front line, will need to rationalize the meaning of sqrt(-1)..... and so they'll have to study the history of the subject, to see where the idea came from and how it was widely accepted. Btw, complex numbers means that the number is 2-dimentional, where the real part is a vector on the x-axis, and the imagenary part is a vector on the y-axis, and the resultant vector is the complex number.

I know something about complex numbers and the square root of -1, but there is a professional mathematician or two here on OC.net, so I'll leave your idea of what they do to them.

Quote from: fibonacci

Quote from: Ebor

I would not give Al-Jazari the title of "father of Robotics" when there were automata of various kinds in many places and times that pre-date him. There are accounts of them from ancient China, Egypt, Greece and Rome. Technology is more of a continuum with people building on what came before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata

A lot of experts disagree... because he invented the first programmable humanoid robot.

Sure other individuals outside of Europe needs to be credited as well. The overall point that I'm making, is as a whole, the Muslim scholars are not getting the recognition they deserve in western textbooks-- it would help today's scientist a lot when they're trying to develop an intuition for the subject.

What "experts"? Can you give some names and citations to where they write/say this please?

If materials on these subjects have not been translated into other languages, or have not been available to European/American etc. scholars or in such grievous cases have been destroyed by other Muslims who considered science texts and other works heretical. Here is a link to a paper that gives information on some of the instances where libraries were broken up or destroyed by Muslims for various reasons including sectarian disagreements or because "An interest in polite literature, science and especially philosophy was looked upon as unnecessary and even detrimental to the truly religious life" (page 26 of the file):

Jihad like I said it means 'stuggle' or detox. Sacrificing short-term pain for long-term benefit (like going through rehab and getting out of a drug addiction).

That's all I know about this concept.

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Why wouldn't they? Mecca is certaintly a religious attraction, through its tradition,its light architecture and all the pious people visiting there as in the most holiest of places.

Pilgrimage is a very very busy time, there won't be any hotels you could stay. Even if you managed to find a room, you may not even be allowed to stay if they find out your not muslim -- as you're potentially taking the place of another muslim.

here are also a lot of strict rules (by the law enforcement), and if you don't have a guide you may get into problems. Even shias have problems going there for hajj -- some were even severally abused for now reason.

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Thanks. Is a muslim obligated to do all this pillars? What risks are there if he doesn't?

Well these are the pillars of the shia school. But in general, when you become a muslim, you want to work hard to follow the moral code contained in the quran. The pillars are like a 'summary' of this moral code.

The more you work hard to be pious, the higher your chances of going to heaven. You are free to do what you want, but the Lord will judge your deeds on judgment day.

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Nice. I use persian rugs in my home also. Tell me more about those prayer mats please.

The prayer mats can be anything that is made out of natural/organic fabric. In fact you can pray on grass if you want. It's not a big deal, and when your praying, your focus should be on the lord not on the material objects around you. In fact even the motions in the ritual should not be thought about. The focus should only be on the lord and the prayer you're requesting.

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I was talking in terms of architecture(mosaics,etc).. What architecture and art do you use in your worship and at you mosques? What does Islam say of Icons?

Just like the prayer mat, architecture art is something that we're not really suppose to focus about. In fact I would argue that the Lord may not answer the prayers made in the mosques with the most exotic architecture!

Why? Because it's a huge waste of raw resources and capital, when building these exotic domes and pillars. The money should've been given to charity instead. A mosque should be simple, have a flat roof with some open space inside -- it could also be a tent. If you look at kaabba-- it has a very simple cubic shape, nothing exotic.

Today, unfortunately many of the rich Islamic nations (those in the oil-rich gulf regions) build these very shiny and exotic mosques-- with domes made out of precious metals like gold and silver. At the same time you have Muslims in poverty and destitution and they're starving. The prophet prophesied that this would happen during the time of the antichrist. It's all the work of the devil. In the end, the Lord will judge the financiers and architects of these mosques.

On the other hand however, using creativity and art in products that would contribute to society is encouraged. For example building a piece of technology that is beautiful and easy to understand intuitively. That is the type of art that is always encouraged.

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Do you have any religious rules about shaving the hair body, probably even in intimate parts? Do you actually believe in chakras? Where is that coming from? Can you tell us more about that?

Hair on the top- If you are a male, it is encourage you always keep the length of your hair uniform. If you want to have a hair cut, either trim it all, or have the barber cut it out evenly.

Body hair on men, I believe the rule is that they can be trimmed, but not shaved off completely. They have a reason to be on our body, by shaving them you may be affecting your health negatively.

I don't know about females, but I think they can do whatever they like in terms of body hair. Waxing is okay for them. For the hair on head, anything is acceptable just as long as it's uniform-- keeping it long is encouraged.

Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

Thanks again for your time.

Just remember, I am only a Muslim and don't consider myself subscribing 100% to the main-line shia sect. However I will admit, that significant amount of my beliefs are in line with the mainline Shias, but I have some disagreements.

There are some Shias that don't recognize some of the companions of the prophets, but there are other that do indeed recognize them and respect them very much.

I don't know who Yasser al-Habib is, and in general I try not to pay too much attention to the bickering and infighting that's going on between shias and sunnis. I think the islamic community has bigger problems to worry about like the antichrist. While these sectarian conflicts are going on, the region is becoming weaker and more unstable which creates the perfect conditions for the armies of the antichrist to invade.

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):

Thank you very much Romaios for these insightful links! It amazes me just how much knowledge is in the Abrahamic religions that is hidden and waiting to be rediscovered. Most of what these links say I agree in regards to the truth it discusses-- although I don't think the lives of the jinns depends solely on the lust we let out. I believe that jinns can live off of other things-- but our sins is like a 'drug' to them, and that's why they constantly come at us and whisper negative thoughts. This is why so many people have addictions and don't understand why.

I don't know if you ever heard story like this.. but there are many females here in the west, who are miserable and lost their self-esteem because when they were young -- in highschool years, they got into relationships very early. Their male partner put so much 'peer-pressure' and deception to have them fornicate. The male partner even goes as far as lying to her that they will marry in the future. But once they fornicated, the male friend never contacts her every again. They keep asking themselves why this male friend of their left them after they fornicated and she lost her virginity to him. She becomes so miserable, has so much pain in her heart, and keeps having negative thoughts with future relationships. What these misguided females don't understand is that the jinns have been running their relationship from the onset-- most likely controlling their male partner (through lust) to push them to commit this sin. When this sin occurs, the jinns enjoy a very powerful negative energy....while the antichrist benifits--who wants to push misery, disorder and poverty into our society.

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What might make Shi'a Islam more appealing to James is the possibility of contracting a temporary marriage. Maybe fibonacci could tell us more about this.

Not all shia's accept this type of marriage. Personally I don't accept this type of marriage if it is for lustful/sexual purposes. If it is only to financially take care of a husbandless female for a temproary amount of time... like at times of war or economic suffering then yes it's okay. Remember an unmarried female and unmarried male who are not from the same family, can not live together. This temp marriage can be a contract to allow such an arrangement.

We have here a very recent rape case where the judge did not send the young to prison because he had been taught at the madrasah that women were worth less than a lollipop that fallen on the ground!

As I write this I am conscious of the history of attacks in Tahrir Square, Cairo, on women by groups of men over the two years since their Arab Spring.

Where is this case happening? In Egypt?

If you read my earlier posts, you know I'm not a fan of the salafi leaders in Egypt and I strongly believe they are agents of the antichrist out to weaken Egyptians and allow the Zionists to conquer them.

"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I don't think you can lie if it results in prosperity. Only the Lord can help you (via intuition) when making such difficult decisions. That's why it's important to follow the religion the right way to have strong intuition delivered to you.

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I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

Again, ever since Jesus was crucified, the Christian community was never allies with the Jewish community. Only in the modern day where you have military partnership between these two groups (NATO and the Zionist army).

So this verse in our day is referring to the Zionists and the partners of zionists. Members of masonry and the orange order.

During the prophets time and the centuries that followed, it was referring to some of the wealthy Christians who work with non-religious Jewish financiers.

You see there was a time where the wealthy 'Christians' didn't want to give out charity... instead they wanted to lend money on usury/interest. But because they're members of strong christian community, they go through the backdoor and made friends with some of the jewish bankers. They made deals to have these jewish bankers to lend out their money on interest (usury), but never reveal their identity. A lot of Kings of christian empires/nations made such shady deals.

This verse is referring to these people, Christians and Jews who are allies of one another (when in fact their communities are not allies of one another).

It's not referring to your friendly Christian, Jewish neighbors living next door.

Well, I am a professional mathematician, according to the Regents of the University of Maryland College Park, and I can tell you we didn't study this, nor did we need to. Mathematical concepts are, after all, utterly abstract, so it is not necessary to explore the history of the field's development to understand them. Indeed, often it is confusing to study them that way, because frequently the early versions of an idea are not well-formed. That tends to be even more true of natural science, as there is a lot of bad understanding in the history of most fields (which is, after all, why they progress in the first place).

Are you a pure mathematician or applied? When you are trying to prove a conjecture, do you ever consult published articles on the problem to help you get a good understanding? How many of these articles doesn't talk about where the problem originated from?

For a period of time, complex numbers was considered as pseudo-mathematics. But once they've been realized intuitively (2-D numbers like vectors) that's when it was accepted and respected in the mainstream. Even though the early versions are not well-formed, it is necessary to examine the history of these concept when they were formed, to appreciate the struggle the previous mathematicians went through to bring about the subject.

Fractal and chaos math went through the same struggles.

I disagree about natural science, especially in Physics and Chemistry. Understanding how certain discoveries were made is vital to find new discoveries.

History is very important, why go through all the struggles that previous scientists/mathematicians already went through? You know by doing so you're really wasting resources--especially if you're being supported by taxpayers. Just because modern academia doesn't do it like that, don't mean they're right. They may be getting away with this approach today, because of the flawed monetary system that supports them to publish insignificant journal articles at the expense of hard working citizens in the private sector. But one day all this false prosperity will come down, and academia will return to a state where researchers can only publish papers that have a purpose and make significant contribution to their field ... ie. no such thing as the 'publish or perish' mentality.

NO it is not allowed in the religion. Some of the prophet's companion wanted to live like that, but they were forbidden to do so.

Marriage and creating a family is an important part of the religion.

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And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?

This is a complex question I unfortunately an unable to give you a proper answer.

I will say this though,

Sunni and shia started right after the prophet died, but neither groups really recognized that they belong to different sects. They saw each other as fellow muslims, except some would follow one of the prophet's companions and other groups would follow other companions.

The shia's followed Imam Ali, and his followers suffered tremendously in the early years. Ali's family and friends were kicked out because they didn't pledge alligence to a tyrant king, and so ever since then shias went in their own path struggling throw battles (karbala) and persecution.

That gave me a big laugh this morning lol! To answer your question, from what I've learned, it should be avoided and is considered haram by most scholars but in a few cases (soldiers away from their wives, those who are unable to marry, etc.), if it will "help" you to avoid falling into the sin of fornication then it is okay as long as you perform ghusl (a ritual bathing ablution) afterwards.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." (24:30)

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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!

"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I don't think you can lie if it results in prosperity. Only the Lord can help you (via intuition) when making such difficult decisions. That's why it's important to follow the religion the right way to have strong intuition delivered to you.

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I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

Again, ever since Jesus was crucified, the Christian community was never allies with the Jewish community. Only in the modern day where you have military partnership between these two groups (NATO and the Zionist army).

So this verse in our day is referring to the Zionists and the partners of zionists. Members of masonry and the orange order.

During the prophets time and the centuries that followed, it was referring to some of the wealthy Christians who work with non-religious Jewish financiers.

You see there was a time where the wealthy 'Christians' didn't want to give out charity... instead they wanted to lend money on usury/interest. But because they're members of strong christian community, they go through the backdoor and made friends with some of the jewish bankers. They made deals to have these jewish bankers to lend out their money on interest (usury), but never reveal their identity. A lot of Kings of christian empires/nations made such shady deals.

This verse is referring to these people, Christians and Jews who are allies of one another (when in fact their communities are not allies of one another).

It's not referring to your friendly Christian, Jewish neighbors living next door.

Thanks for your reply. Though I have other questions about it, for now I must insist your apparent belief that NATO and the Masons are "Christian" is quite ludicrous. Neither does the Orange Order represent Christianity per se any more than you indicate radical Muslims represent you. Orthodox Christians are not allowed to be Masons, and many mainline Protestant groups will not allow Masons to be members of their groups.

So my first question is what justification you have for identifying NATO and the Masons as "Christian."

Also if you are telling us this verse[1] is not about Jews and Christians but Jews and Christians that are Masons, what Masons existed at the time the verse was written to warrant such -at first blush- a strained accounting of the verse forbidding any befriending of Jews and Christians? (or if not Masons, what entity like Masons are you saying the verse is about?

Would you say that most Muslims would agree you can be friends with Christians and Jews who are neighbors without disobeying the Quran? How many percentage-wide worldwide do you think would probably agree?

More questions later; thanks again._____________[1] Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

Are you a pure mathematician or applied? When you are trying to prove a conjecture, do you ever consult published articles on the problem to help you get a good understanding? How many of these articles doesn't talk about where the problem originated from?

That's not the way we talk about things in the math department. The only "problem" solved by imaginary numbers is the fact that there is no real number which is the square root of -1.

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For a period of time, complex numbers was considered as pseudo-mathematics. But once they've been realized intuitively (2-D numbers like vectors) that's when it was accepted and respected in the mainstream.

No, that's not true. Complex numbers were first worked on in the late 1500s in Italy, but the planar visualization of them wasn't spelled out until 1799. The notion was worked on steadily in between. I haven't seen anything that connects the Islamic world to complex arithmetic.

How are homosexuals treated in Islam, are they given respects i.e: the individual loves being a muslim loves going to the mosque but is a homosexual how is he treated by the Muslim Clergy ?.

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

In most, and probably all, Islamic schools both Shia and Sunni, Homosexuality is considered seriously haram. In most Islamic governments, according to the Shari'ah law code, this is punishable by death.

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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!

NO it is not allowed in the religion. Some of the prophet's companion wanted to live like that, but they were forbidden to do so.

Marriage and creating a family is an important part of the religion.

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And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?

This is a complex question I unfortunately an unable to give you a proper answer.

I will say this though,

Sunni and shia started right after the prophet died, but neither groups really recognized that they belong to different sects. They saw each other as fellow muslims, except some would follow one of the prophet's companions and other groups would follow other companions.

The shia's followed Imam Ali, and his followers suffered tremendously in the early years. Ali's family and friends were kicked out because they didn't pledge alligence to a tyrant king, and so ever since then shias went in their own path struggling throw battles (karbala) and persecution.

If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day

If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day

But its the same in Christianity, Marriage, family life, and procreation are also a very important part of Orthodox Christianity unless you become a monastic (Monk or Nun). I wouldn't say miserable, but of course family life is time-consuming and difficult that's just life, we cant run away from our obligations or be lazy . I'm willing to bet that the monastic life is probably way harder than the worldly family life.

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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!

The difference is that I take some bit of joy in being alone and handling the toils of the solitary life, whereas, the problems of family life seem utterly miserable to me. I'm an emotionally detached person, so the thought of having to deal with emotions and feelings from a wife, kids and having to raise them and be a good dad is frightening and miserable to me. Plus, I feel like I never got my independence from kids because I've been raising my siblings as if they were my children for quite a while now.

That gave me a big laugh this morning lol! To answer your question, from what I've learned, it should be avoided and is considered haram by most scholars but in a few cases (soldiers away from their wives, those who are unable to marry, etc.), if it will "help" you to avoid falling into the sin of fornication then it is okay as long as you perform ghusl (a ritual bathing ablution) afterwards.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." (24:30)

How are homosexuals treated in Islam, are they given respects i.e: the individual loves being a muslim loves going to the mosque but is a homosexual how is he treated by the Muslim Clergy ?.

All forms of lust is a sin...

For male homosexuals if they take their lust to the limit (releasing semen) it is a major sin...

and just like what I said about 'playing with yourself' ... you are 'feeding' the evil jinns, extremely powerful negative energy

Finally without getting too much into details....and may the lord forgive me if I misguide anyonehomosexual behaviors get you closer to the devil -- I'll just leave it at that

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If they are caught in such behavior in an Islamic community, they'll be examined to improve their mental condition and will be encouraged to marry a women asap (just like what prophet Lot proposed).

If they don't however go with the advice, and they commit extreme acts of lust in an islamic community where there is strong emphasis on family, they'll be requested to leave the community asap.

Now some will argue that they're born that way... and this may be true to a degree because of the chemicals the mother was exposed to during pregancy (BPA).

In this case, long periods of fasting is recommended, to detoxify the whole body from such chemicals. The community will need to provide resources to the individual to improve the mental condition.

A true Islamic community is suppose to be family oriented, everyone works hard to help one another to grow the community. No one is suppose to feel isolated and abandoned unless they choose to live like that.

If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day

you have to understand James, that you've been living in United states for the last few decades, at a time where dajjal (antichrist) and satan have taken full control of your economy

the quran says ' evil threatens you with poverty'

by taking control of the economy

satan can then destroy families

60 years ago, a man could support a wife and 8 kids

today he can barely support himself, and his wife has to work full time ... and they both pay taxes

"...you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity" -Gazoli Saibin, Ehia Al-owlom Al-Den/A Revival of the Religious Books (Cairo: Maktabet al-Turas, 1971), pp. 3, 137.

I don't think you can lie if it results in prosperity. Only the Lord can help you (via intuition) when making such difficult decisions. That's why it's important to follow the religion the right way to have strong intuition delivered to you.

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I didn't notice an answer to this one; forgive me if there was one and I missed it.

Three quick questions about the impossibility of faithful Muslim + non-Muslim friendship.

1. Can faithful Muslims genuinely befriend Christians?

Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

Again, ever since Jesus was crucified, the Christian community was never allies with the Jewish community. Only in the modern day where you have military partnership between these two groups (NATO and the Zionist army).

So this verse in our day is referring to the Zionists and the partners of zionists. Members of masonry and the orange order.

During the prophets time and the centuries that followed, it was referring to some of the wealthy Christians who work with non-religious Jewish financiers.

You see there was a time where the wealthy 'Christians' didn't want to give out charity... instead they wanted to lend money on usury/interest. But because they're members of strong christian community, they go through the backdoor and made friends with some of the jewish bankers. They made deals to have these jewish bankers to lend out their money on interest (usury), but never reveal their identity. A lot of Kings of christian empires/nations made such shady deals.

This verse is referring to these people, Christians and Jews who are allies of one another (when in fact their communities are not allies of one another).

It's not referring to your friendly Christian, Jewish neighbors living next door.

Thanks for your reply. Though I have other questions about it, for now I must insist your apparent belief that NATO and the Masons are "Christian" is quite ludicrous. Neither does the Orange Order represent Christianity per se any more than you indicate radical Muslims represent you. Orthodox Christians are not allowed to be Masons, and many mainline Protestant groups will not allow Masons to be members of their groups.

So my first question is what justification you have for identifying NATO and the Masons as "Christian."

Also if you are telling us this verse[1] is not about Jews and Christians but Jews and Christians that are Masons, what Masons existed at the time the verse was written to warrant such -at first blush- a strained accounting of the verse forbidding any befriending of Jews and Christians? (or if not Masons, what entity like Masons are you saying the verse is about?

Would you say that most Muslims would agree you can be friends with Christians and Jews who are neighbors without disobeying the Quran? How many percentage-wide worldwide do you think would probably agree?

More questions later; thanks again._____________[1] Qur'an 5.51: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."(please also compare many similar verses from Qur'an and Hadith here: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm )

I know they're not the true Christians...

but these groups were formed by western Christians (not orthodox) who became allies with edomite jews (who are converted jews)

remember it was the edomites that rejected christ, and crucified him

but strangly a group of western christians who claim to be true followers of christ became military allies with them

Why do you think this is the case?

It's these two finanically/military-aligned groups that we're asked to avoid. Do you understand?

Being friends with a true good-mannered christian and a true good-mannered jew in your neighborhood is not a problem at all. It is encouraged in the quran.

There are many true orthodox jews who accept Jesus as the messiah, they don't belong to the aggressive edomite/Zionist group. At the same time there are many Christians who won't lend money on interest and certaintly wouldn't make deals with other groups to do it for him on his behalf.

Edit:

xariskai , because this is a topic I studied a long time ago, I can't really remember names of kings, noble Christians who made alliances with jewsall I can say there are many facts on this subject..... here's one link I found disscusing these financially and politically motivated relationships:

"The Alliance with the Christian kings

It is to be said that this time the Christians, facing the rise of a superior Muslim force, received the Jews with some kind of compassion, because considered them useful allies. As a result, the Jews switched the side, giving their support to the Christian kingdoms. There -->they formed a special social group<--, depending and protected by the kings who used them as tax collectors, financial ministers (almoxarifes), treasurers, state bankers, personal physicians, astronomers... In the cities the Jews acquired predominant positions in trade and crafts. It became usual practice for the nobles to marry to Jewish women in order to receive the financial support of the rich Jewish families. Even the kings had Jewish favorites. In this manner the Sephardim exerciced great influence on the policy and economy of the Christian kingdoms."

If that's the case, then I'd NEVER become a Muslim. Perhaps influenced by my experience with my own family, but the thought of having a family of my own actually sounds miserable, time-consuming and difficult--opposed to good. I'd take solitude over family life any day

you have to understand James, that you've been living in United states for the last few decades, at a time where dajjal (antichrist) and satan have taken full control of your economy

the quran says ' evil threatens you with poverty'

by taking control of the economy

satan can then destroy families

60 years ago, a man could support a wife and 8 kids

today he can barely support himself, and his wife has to work full time ... and they both pay taxes

If that's all really true, then why even live in society? Why not move out to the wilderness, build and/or purchase my own modest house and become self sufficient like yeshuasiam, living my own life with a possible family? Then again, I don't know if a city-boy like me could make it out there.

What's the Hadith? How important of a part does it play in Islamic salvation? Is there a such thing as "Sola Scriptura" Muslims who only follow the Quran?

The Hadith is a collection of sayings and rules that were either directly from the Prophet Mohammad or his early followers. So it plays a major role in Islamic teachings as it is a main scripture for muslims second only to the Qur'an. Muslims, in most ways, are "sola scriptura" especially the Sunnis. There are a few small sects who aren't though.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:33:13 PM by Cantor Krishnich »

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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!

It's important to note that the two main Hadith volumes believed by the Sunni to be completely (or almost completely) authentic or "Sahih" are Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, which the Shia do not recognize.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:30:16 PM by Severian »

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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

but strangely a group of western christians who claim to be true followers of christ became military allies with them

Why do you think this is the case?

It's these two finanically/military-aligned groups that we're asked to avoid. Do you understand?

Why should we avoid such alliances? The writer of the Qur'an has no authority over Christians. We do not need Muhammad's advice or commandments for our political or financial affairs. Besides, we have more things in common with Jews than with Muslims. "Salvation is from the Judeans" said the Messiah.

Being friends with a true good-mannered christian and a true good-mannered jew in your neighborhood is not a problem at all. It is encouraged in the quran.

Verse please? Actually, the Qur'an verse asking Muslims not to befriend Christians and Jews does not contain any adjectival clauses to make a distinction between different representatives of these two groups. It simply says "Jews and Christians", not "only Christians that aid Jews". The Qur'an teaching on this issue is not specific as you claim it to be.

There are many true orthodox jews who accept Jesus as the messiah, they don't belong to the aggressive edomite/Zionist group. At the same time there are many Christians who won't lend money on interest and certaintly wouldn't make deals with other groups to do it for him on his behalf.

In the early years of Islam, the quran was referring to these jews and christians who are allies of one another.

you have to understand James, that you've been living in United states for the last few decades, at a time where dajjal (antichrist) and satan have taken full control of your economy

the quran says ' evil threatens you with poverty'

by taking control of the economy

satan can then destroy families

Now I can perfectly understand why the Qur'an has the following verse:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (Surah 9:29 Pickthall)

Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

Some Christians didn't even believe Jesus was God. That He was human. Etc.

Of course Isa and company will chime that they were not Christians, well here we are at begging the question.

But whether or not Jesus was killed by crucifixion is a purely historical question, accepted as a fact even by non-Christian scholars.

Further, we can easily reformulate the "weak sauce" argument against the Qur'an's perfection that you ascribe to Isa and Dzheremi as follows. The text responds only to one view of the trinity and Christ's person held by self-described Christians, and a truly minority opinion to be found within an obscure community in Arabia which couldn't trace itself back to first- or second-century Palestine. Imagine if a man who claimed to be a prophet published a scripture blasting Muslims for regarding Moses, the Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, and Krishna as manifestations of God (which the Bahá'í believe).

Does Islam have monasticism, or its own equivelant? And what is the OLDEST school of Islam?

Per the words of the Prophet himself, there is no monasticism in Islam, at least officially. However, there have been various ascetics in the history of Islam, some of whom did lead celibate lives and divorced themselves entirely from the world to dedicate themselves to worship.

The idea in Islam is to establish an ideal balance between this world and the Hereafter; we are expected to be in the world, but not of it. Of course, finding that balance is very difficult, and I think that has been the problem with many Muslims since the very beginning.

As for the OLDEST school of Islam, what exactly do you mean? The oldest legal school?

How come all the Hadiths seem to promote and tolerate violence and immoral practices, whereas, when I read the Quran, it seems to be peaceful for the most part?

It depends on which hadiths you're reading. Taking a hadith book and reading it without a qualified teacher can be very dangerous, especially if one is not aware of the social/historical context of the hadiths themselves. And the hadiths are also divided into different categories: there are authentic hadiths, sound hadiths, weak hadiths, fabricated hadiths, etc.

The biggest problem facing Islam today, I think, is that there are too many unqualified people delving into these pre-modern texts without the necessary training and causing all sorts of havoc. It is somewhat similar to mainstream Christianity nowadays, where people speak on religious matters without the requisite knowledge and understanding. Only in the case of Islam, the problem is much worse, to say the least.

Does your sect of Shi'ism curse the Sahaba? What do you think of the controversial Kuwaiti Shi'ite Cleric Yasser al-Habib?

Thanks again for your time.

Yasser al-Habib is a sectarian Shiite fanatic and does no good for the cause of Islam or Muslims. At least one thing I can credit Christians with is that they do not waste their time and energy fighting over such trivial matters, about this sahaba or that sahaba. Islam was nearly divided into soon after the Prophet's death - the early Christian community, at least to my knowledge, did not have that problem.

Yasser al-Habib is a sectarian Shiite fanatic and does no good for the cause of Islam or Muslims. At least one thing I can credit Christians with is that they do not waste their time and energy fighting over such trivial matters, about this sahaba or that sahaba. Islam was nearly divided into soon after the Prophet's death - the early Christian community, at least to my knowledge, did not have that problem.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's so old it was dealt with in the New Testament itself. From the first letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians:

For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?