If the D was just middle of the pack in terms of yardage and turnovers I think we'd easily have another 3-4 wins at least.

Or if we had 3-4 more touchdowns instead of field goals the right places, we'd also have 3-4 more wins.

Just for the hell of it I'll sat 58% offense, 42% defense but I really think this is missing the point. I know my opinion is in the minority, and I'll likely get flamed for saying this, but I think the idea that this team is just some defensive tinkering away from being a legit contender is flat out laughable. However, I do agree that the team should and will spend most of its off season addressing defensive personnel issues. My concern is that they will likely go about this in the same ham-handede manner as they have approached other issues the last decade or so no matter who the coach has been- by throwing gobs of money at overpriced free agents who are either past their prime or were never actually that good to begin with. This is the same approach that brought such spectacles as the spectacular failure of the 2000 Redskins, not to mention this year's woefully disappointing offense.

I guess I'm pretty far off topic now, but one of the things about we Redskins fans is that we have been perpetually guilty of deluding ourselves as to how close our team is to actually returning to the top of the NFL heap. I think the Redskins are structurally flawed as an organization, and until significant changes are made in the way this team is assembled (GM or some significant counterweight to Gibbs) then Gibbs II will continue to sputter in the "one step foward, one step back" manner we'vce seen so far. There's nothing especially impressive about one playoff appearance in three years (come on- was last year's team really that good?), much less a 21-27 record, or suddenly being forced to start a neophyte at quarterback halfway through year three of what presumably was a five year plan, or expensive wideouts who put up pedestrian numbers, or exalted offensive "gurus" whose unit can't manage a paltry 20 points per game.

I think there is a lot more wrong with the Redskins than needing a few new faces on defense.

Or if we had 3-4 more touchdowns instead of field goals the right places, we'd also have 3-4 more wins.

Just for the hell of it I'll sat 58% offense, 42% defense but I really think this is missing the point. I know my opinion is in the minority, and I'll likely get flamed for saying this, but I think the idea that this team is just some defensive tinkering away from being a legit contender is flat out laughable. However, I do agree that the team should and will spend most of its off season addressing defensive personnel issues. My concern is that they will likely go about this in the same ham-handede manner as they have approached other issues the last decade or so no matter who the coach has been- by throwing gobs of money at overpriced free agents who are either past their prime or were never actually that good to begin with. This is the same approach that brought such spectacles as the spectacular failure of the 2000 Redskins, not to mention this year's woefully disappointing offense.

I guess I'm pretty far off topic now, but one of the things about we Redskins fans is that we have been perpetually guilty of deluding ourselves as to how close our team is to actually returning to the top of the NFL heap. I think the Redskins are structurally flawed as an organization, and until significant changes are made in the way this team is assembled (GM or some significant counterweight to Gibbs) then Gibbs II will continue to sputter in the "one step foward, one step back" manner we'vce seen so far. There's nothing especially impressive about one playoff appearance in three years (come on- was last year's team really that good?), much less a 21-27 record, or suddenly being forced to start a neophyte at quarterback halfway through year three of what presumably was a five year plan, or expensive wideouts who put up pedestrian numbers, or exalted offensive "gurus" whose unit can't manage a paltry 20 points per game.

I think there is a lot more wrong with the Redskins than needing a few new faces on defense.

I can't argue w/the general summary of this post, but I think the intent of this thread is not that we're a "few new faces on defense" away from being a "contender," rather the D is our biggest issue & given limited resources, i.e. cap space, that's what the offseason will focus on.
I also agree that many seem to overestimate the Skins' potential every year, even Jurgensen & Huff do. But on this site I think the majority understand that the O is a work in progress, could make great strides next year, and we DEFINITElY need some new blood on D. That said, I'll think of this offseason as just improving to the best of the team's ability, not making those aquisitions that will get us to the super bowl, as we thought last offseason. This team can be a playoff team next year w/some tweaking of the D, IMO. Not talking super bowl (yet!). If I'm one of those fans w/unrealistic expectations, so be it, I have to have something to look forward to & be positive about this offseason.

I can't argue w/the general summary of this post, but I think the intent of this thread is not that we're a "few new faces on defense" away from being a "contender," rather the D is our biggest issue & given limited resources, i.e. cap space, that's what the offseason will focus on.
I also agree that many seem to overestimate the Skins' potential every year, even Jurgensen & Huff do. But on this site I think the majority understand that the O is a work in progress, could make great strides next year, and we DEFINITElY need some new blood on D. That said, I'll think of this offseason as just improving to the best of the team's ability, not making those aquisitions that will get us to the super bowl, as we thought last offseason. This team can be a playoff team next year w/some tweaking of the D, IMO. Not talking super bowl (yet!). If I'm one of those fans w/unrealistic expectations, so be it, I have to have something to look forward to & be positive about this offseason.

Yeah, I know- I wandered pretty far off topic there, but I guess the whole "it's the defense's fault we're 5-10" thing just led me into going off a bit about where I think the real problems with the Redskins lie. This is not a solid football team on either side of the ball, nor is it well structured in the front office. Pinning the dismal state of this team solely on the defense doesn't make much sense to me. I would like to be optimistic but I'm tired of getting my hopes up. I will of course continue to support the team but I find it hard to be optimistic at the moment. My respect for Gibbs' past accomplishments and my admiration for what I know of him as a person are all that are keeping me from being even harsher in my assessment.

Yeah, I know- I wandered pretty far off topic there, but I guess the whole "it's the defense's fault we're 5-10" thing just led me into going off a bit about where I think the real problems with the Redskins lie. This is not a solid football team on either side of the ball, nor is it well structured in the front office. Pinning the dismal state of this team solely on the defense doesn't make much sense to me. I would like to be optimistic but I'm tired of getting my hopes up. I will of course continue to support the team but I find it hard to be optimistic at the moment. My respect for Gibbs' past accomplishments and my admiration for what I know of him as a person are all that are keeping me from being even harsher in my assessment.

yeah, sorry - you even said in that post that you were off topic!
Understood about the FO, let's just hope that we've seen the worst of Gibbs' learning curve as Team Prez, and he'll adjust some things accordingly. I don't like the way he spends draft picks like pocket change, but I'll continue to have faith in him. This will be an interesting offseason, but as a Skins fan you have to always expect such!

I'd rank the defense with a bigger portion...but our biggest failure is our coaching. We have an all-star cast, we should have all star results and we don't.
Do I blame Saunders for the offense, and Williams for the defense? You bet I do...and I blame Gibbs for the overall performance.
Only Joe Bugel has done his job well. The rest have failed.
I am OK with giving them another shot because of their track records. Saunders warned us that it would take a full year to learn the offense. We didn't agree at the time, but now we agree. Williams had the Skins defense being a strong standard to the point that teams knew when they came to fed ex they had to face a good d. He's had injuries and poor play from areas, so he gets a mulligan on this season. Gibbs has yet to prove he can coach in the salary cap era, but he gave us a sniff last year, and he's worth giving another shot for the point that he's a hall of fame coach and he's done wonders for the Skins.
So let's put the blame where it needs to be...the coaches.

Because nobody figured out that Springs needed surgery after last season he got surgery during preseason. So the D stank while he was out. Then he was rushed back; not that his original injury didn't have time to heal, but he wasn't able to build up a good strength base for the rest of his body. So after he came back he had hamstring problems. And I wouldn't be surprised if muscle weakness impacted his ability to adjust on the play when he broke his shoulder. In the NO game they finally had the rhythm of having Springs in the lineup.

For the person who thinks the offense is the problem, I remember a case (maybe the most extreme) where the opposing team didn't have to punt until the 4th quarter. If that happens and your defense gets less than one turnover a game, please explain to me
(1) how to win the game, and
(2) how many points you expect your offense to get given the length of time the opposing team has the ball and the implied start positions of your drives.

I think if we can get a good (healthy) corner we can go places. All the rest is "gravy".

I also feel there was some poor playcalling. If Gibbs told Saunders what he wanted I think it's OK. I imagine Saunders has seen how its worked and will find a way to use it to improve playcalling for next year. Then there's the red zone...

If CP and Moss are both healthy next year...

PS (to avoid starting a new thread): Did anyone notice Fox's stat line last week? (Don't forget to include special teams tackles.)

We're 5 or potentially 6 games worse than last year, and yet, with 1 game to go, are only 500 yards below last season's offensive output. We have put up ~40 yards less than the 13-2 Chicago Bears.

I just don't buy your argument. Of course we don't have a juggernaut offense this year. Didn't have one last year, either. Neither does Chicago have one. The big difference is that this year we don't have a defense that can make plays to help the offense. That IS a legitimate way to win in the NFL. I think you'll find a nearby team proved that strategy successful in 2000, with an offense just as average as this one.

You do NOT get pionts in the NFL for yardage . We are terrible at getting the ball in the endzone , and unless you have a very stout defence , you will lose most of your games . I do agree the Defence is a bigger a problem , as they have no strength at all . poor vs the run , very little pass rush , poor coverage , poor tackling and very little quality depth . You are correct saying you can win with a Ravens 2000 offence , but only if you have a DOMINATING DEf. Most teams winning it all have great defences , but also score TD's .

Because nobody figured out that Springs needed surgery after last season he got surgery during preseason. So the D stank while he was out. Then he was rushed back; not that his original injury didn't have time to heal, but he wasn't able to build up a good strength base for the rest of his body. So after he came back he had hamstring problems. And I wouldn't be surprised if muscle weakness impacted his ability to adjust on the play when he broke his shoulder. In the NO game they finally had the rhythm of having Springs in the lineup.

For the person who thinks the offense is the problem, I remember a case (maybe the most extreme) where the opposing team didn't have to punt until the 4th quarter. If that happens and your defense gets less than one turnover a game, please explain to me
(1) how to win the game, and
(2) how many points you expect your offense to get given the length of time the opposing team has the ball and the implied start positions of your drives.

I think if we can get a good (healthy) corner we can go places. All the rest is "gravy".

I also feel there was some poor playcalling. If Gibbs told Saunders what he wanted I think it's OK. I imagine Saunders has seen how its worked and will find a way to use it to improve playcalling for next year. Then there's the red zone...

If CP and Moss are both healthy next year...

PS (to avoid starting a new thread): Did anyone notice Fox's stat line last week? (Don't forget to include special teams tackles.)

PPS: Taylor Jacobs sighting: 1 catch for 9 yards.

The defence is the " bigger " problem , but it works both ways . It really is simple , when you have the ball score , when you are on defence , stop them . Not that I think that any team can score all day or stop the other team all night .

On the other hand, I find that if I score all night I am stopped all the NEXT day. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by budw38

The defence is the " bigger " problem , but it works both ways . It really is simple , when you have the ball score , when you are on defence , stop them . Not that I think that any team can score all day or stop the other team all night .

I think if we can get a good (healthy) corner we can go places. All the rest is "gravy".

Your assessment of Springs was spot on, but this defense needs help at other places too. Apart from Carter and Golston, the D-line is officially old -- they aren't getting sufficient penetration, and we're going to break the record for lowest number of sacks in a season.

It's amazing how everyone jumps on, then off bandwagons. When the cowboys were winning, everyone said how great the team was, they are the most solid team in the NFC. Now they lose one game and get exposed, and they are horrendous.
If this was the Skins, I'd say, "we have some top notch coaches, and they will figure out a way to win". WHy? Because I have faith in my team...maybe you should too.

That being said, I'd be surprised too!

I for one am not (like those sport commentator dummies) never thought the defense was solid. Dallas is not horrendous when you look at the level of play in the NFC by other teams.

I have faith that they will beat the Lions but the postseason looks grime with the defense level of play. If Dallas doesnt get to the big one this year there is even more hope to look to next season as a promising one. I can not say the same for Washington.

How much worse would the D have to be for you to place the majority of the blame on them for this miserable season??

The D has hit rock bottom. They have been gashed by just about every back they've faced, and they've given up a ton of big plays in the passing game. Outside of about 2-3 solid performances they've been downright awful, the worst overall D we've seen here in years.

I have no problem saying they are the main reason we are 5-10. No problem at all.

me neither matty...the offense has come together and the special teams has been solid but the defense ,why bother right.....
and they certainly have stunk up the joint this season.
so this whole offseason should be spent on the defense and resigning our own players and please use the draft get some picks and actually pick up some people. we don,t need another free agency fenzy offseason.

__________________ with the sixth pick dan synder selects......daniel synder ...to find someone that will be a better fit for the front office..

me neither matty...the offense has come together and the special teams has been solid but the defense ,why bother right.....
and they certainly have stunk up the joint this season.
so this whole offseason should be spent on the defense and resigning our own players and please use the draft get some picks and actually pick up some people. we don,t need another free agency fenzy offseason.

I agree with your ideas about the approach to the off-season- for once let's not pull a glitzy free agent shopping spree.

Can't see where the offense has "come together". St. Louis was the first time in eight games they've managed to break 20 points.