Actually, if you look at it, the city of Cleveland is doing a lot to turn itself in the right direction.

I've met with the people in the city in charge of revitalizing the downtown area, and if you go up high enough in the Terminal Tower you can see signs of progress everywhere. The ghosttown that was the Flats is being revitalized into a commercial area. The Ernst & Young tower in the Flats will be a centerpiece for this revitalization, and will bring a ton of jobs and commerce downtown along with added (and needed) hotel space. There will be a grocery store in the flats and a number of new restaurants, hopefully permanent this time. The city is also being smart about providing tax advantages and other incentives to companies to relocate downtown.

Just look at the E4th St revitalization to see how far the city has come, and that's before the casino started drawing traffic downtown.

If you're not noticing downtown Cleveland is already on the uptick, you're not looking.

In my mind, the city of Cleveland has done a pretty good job developing downtown these last 7-8 years. I give Frank Jackson a lot of credit for that. There's more cool housing downtown, East 4th and West 6th have been built up to be definite date night or debauchery destinations ... and a lot more people are living downtown in general. It's relatively safe, they're building back up the Flats with cool businesses and restaurants, and the casino only helps everything. Going downtown has gotten progressively better and better in my 35 years on the planet. And its been built up in spite of the fact that (on average) 15k less people are at Indians games 81 nights a year and the Cavs are drawing 10k instead of 20k 41 times a year.

But the Lakefront ... my God. What a train wreck. What a waste. Burke Lakefront has to be one of the grossest misuses of space in all of America, and no one can figure out how to get rid of it and redevelop it.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

swerb wrote:But the Lakefront ... my God. What a train wreck. What a waste. Burke Lakefront has to be one of the grossest misuses of space in all of America, and no one can figure out how to get rid of it and redevelop it.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Triple-S wrote:Get Gilbert behind it. One of the best tracks EVER for Autoracing.

That's funny because just the other day I was reading an interview with Michael Schumacher where he was quoted as saying "Why would I want to race at Monza or in Monaco when I can run on an abandoned airstrip on Lake Erie?"

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

I know, but my indycar homerism is getting in the way. I think it should be used in a better way, not torn a part.

Burke was great for racing, and was one of the staples of my childhood along with the airshow. Both owned.

mattvan1 wrote:That's funny because just the other day I was reading an interview with Michael Schumacher where he was quoted as saying "Why would I want to race at Monza or in Monaco when I can run on an abandoned airstrip on Lake Erie?"

Yeah, we're not getting Formula 1.

Austin just got it though, and took bending to every whim of Bernie Ecclestone to get it.

Indy on the other hand? They have street races in Baltimore and Detroit. Providence Rhode Island is in talks with them for gods sake. And I believe James Hinchcliffe, and a few other drivers in the series would like it back.

Roger Penske, and Bobby Rahal have Cleveland roots as well.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

LarsHancock wrote:Actually, if you look at it, the city of Cleveland is doing a lot to turn itself in the right direction.

I've met with the people in the city in charge of revitalizing the downtown area, and if you go up high enough in the Terminal Tower you can see signs of progress everywhere. The ghosttown that was the Flats is being revitalized into a commercial area. The Ernst & Young tower in the Flats will be a centerpiece for this revitalization, and will bring a ton of jobs and commerce downtown along with added (and needed) hotel space. There will be a grocery store in the flats and a number of new restaurants, hopefully permanent this time. The city is also being smart about providing tax advantages and other incentives to companies to relocate downtown.

Just look at the E4th St revitalization to see how far the city has come, and that's before the casino started drawing traffic downtown.

If you're not noticing downtown Cleveland is already on the uptick, you're not looking.

Well, I don't live there but had tickets for 6-8 yrs and my wife and I spent many a weekend there including a few New Years

I just like Cleveland and want to see it thrive so I'm asking what the vibes may be

I know, but my indycar homerism is getting in the way. I think it should be used in a better way, not torn a part.

Burke was great for racing, and was one of the staples of my childhood along with the airshow. Both owned.

mattvan1 wrote:That's funny because just the other day I was reading an interview with Michael Schumacher where he was quoted as saying "Why would I want to race at Monza or in Monaco when I can run on an abandoned airstrip on Lake Erie?"

Yeah, we're not getting Formula 1.

Austin just got it though, and took bending to every whim of Bernie Ecclestone to get it.

Indy on the other hand? They have street races in Baltimore and Detroit. Providence Rhode Island is in talks with them for gods sake. And I believe James Hinchcliffe, and a few other drivers in the series would like it back.

Roger Penske, and Bobby Rahal have Cleveland roots as well.

Used in a better way?

How bout making it worth the billion dollars that acres of prime lakefront real estate should be worth, not holding on to it for a dopey car race and air show.

As Swerb alludes, seriously, that could very well be the worst use of property in the country. Gotta be right up there. Strange how the fact that there just isn't too much waterfront property in this here country seemed to elude the builders of this city.

Agree with Lars and Rich. It'll be slow and it'll extend past my kid's kids, but there is a turnaround. Cleveland already hit bottom and there are signs that there is a rebound. And while it's never going back to a 1910 level of prosperity and wealth it is positioned fairly well to recover and thrive.

This is not Vegas or NYC but what it can be is a city where people can work and live a decent life in decent homes for a very low cost of living comparatively.

Guy was a crook but Mike White and Gateway kept the city afloat (while he lined his pockets and many others) and, honestly, Frank Jackson's move with his teachers and the Issue 5 stuff gives me hope too.

Jackson killed Kasich's plan, stole it, then implemented it in Cleveland himself in many ways. And that shows me that instead of crying about business lining 271 corridor and going to the suburbs that maybe, just maybe these guys understand that if you want to spread it, you have to get it first. And to do that you can't cry but rather compete. Jackson closed some schools, trimmed some teachers and pretty much has charters and public schools competing.

You can't draw wealth here and then bleed them dry. You can't hand out the entire supply of corn to feed the homeless without selling some for other needs. The county seems to be on the right track and there's some hope the city is too.

There is a manufacturing base (that's also on the rise) and though it will be all automated and different than the auto hey days, there will be opportunities for hands-on people to run the machines and the CAD shit and all of that. I think the city is well-positioned and needs to continue building on the momentum they've established.

Peeker, in the 1980s, the Great Lakes region was considering allowing a pipeline to run fresh lake water south and west, to drought areas. Thankfully, that seemed to die. Instead of sending resources out, we should be attracting people and industry back to NEO. They take our population and then want our water too? Eff that.

What impact does water supply have on business growth in the modern age? Mostly just to support a population? Or does it still have a manufacturing role?

googleeph2 wrote:Peeker, in the 1980s, the Great Lakes region was considering allowing a pipeline to run fresh lake water south and west, to drought areas. Thankfully, that seemed to die. Instead of sending resources out, we should be attracting people and industry back to NEO. They take our population and then want our water too? Eff that.

What impact does water supply have on business growth in the modern age? Mostly just to support a population? Or does it still have a manufacturing role?

Not really sure. I mean, it's obviously critical but Cleveland is relatively blessed in terms of natural resources.

I think it's also fortunate that the people, unlike Detroit, had the good sense to leave after the city died. Having 5 million people in a dead city leads to worse issues than people fleeing to the suburbs in my opinion. Cleveland ain't millionaire's row any more but there's a ring around the city where there's a lot of wealth. Whether it be Shaker or Gates Mills/Pepper Pike and heading down 271, there are plenty of businesses and comfortable people.

The key is for the city to draw back business and residents by competing with the suburbs that drew them away.

I think, unlike 20 years ago, people are more content with a 50's style lifestyle where they have a decent job, a decent life, a decent house, etc. There's not as much searching to turn your 2,000 square foot home to a 5,000 sq foot McMansion at all costs.

Like I said, it's not close to good. But it appears to have bottomed out and started to rebound in many ways. You see Tremont and E4th and CBS/Jacobs Field/Gund/etc and those are flags planted. There are positive signs when before there were fewer. All IMO. I doubt the lakefront is ever much more than it is in my lifetime but I think in my lifetime people will see the city as a decent place to work, play and raise kids compared to many other places.

I still cannot believe how Dennis Kucinich campaigned against Gateway circa 1990.What an idiot. I don't remember why- maybe his union ties weren't as involved as he wanted?I have vivid memories of the crumbling asphalt and rust in that area, before the digging began. Talk about having died.

Are there elements today that fight against redevelopment and progress?

Also, one of the big forces a couple decades ago was the public/private cooperation that desperation brought together. Is that cooperation still alive? It seems like it, but I had heard that for a while anyway, it ceased to exist.

Change is needed. Winning has to become expected. The uniforms need more flash. (Keep the helmets, but jazz up the rest). The stadium needs an overhaul too. Give us a reason to respect, appreciate, and be proud of our team. Now is the time. Gone w/ the old.

Sure there are those still fighting against redevelopment. The same contingent that always has their hand out and line their pockets in the name of spreading the wealth. The same people who have waited in line behind other crooks and wonder when their turn is. But like I said, I think many are starting to understand that "To spread it ya got to get it" part of the equation and I think Jackson should actually be commended for starting down that road of focusing on redevelopment and not completely increasing the welfare state that it had become.

No one wants to see anyone homeless or suffering and no one is against helping in that regard. But you can't do only that and not grow anything or that money runs out fast.

I think it's big that a black mayor in a completely democratic town turned a big portion of the Kasich plan into his own and is seen as accountable for it sinking or swimming. That's the kind of thing that gives me hope that someone downtown has woken up and is figuring out that competing rather than crying is the only way to get business and money back down there.

Plenty of slips 'tween the cup and the lips but it's a start. And I think the county (again with a loooong way to go) is also healthier today than it was a couple years back.

They binged, they've purged. Had to. What happens next is the key IMO.

I used to be pretty pissed about Burke and eventually I found out a few facts that put things in perspective. Bottom line is it seems doubtful that it will ever be developed.

1.) It is built on a landfill which makes it unsuitable for most any kind of construction.

2.) The FAA uses it as an emergency airport for Hopkins. Post 9/11 the rules were rewritten about such things and it's my understanding that Burke is the only airport that fits the bill.

RE Cleveland:

There has been a ton of progress made and there is much more to be done. I live and work in the city so I see it every day. I also read about development in the city nearly every day. There is a ton to keep track of because there is a tremendous amount of activity that has happened, is happening, and is being planned.

The recession really slowed things down especially the banks not lending. That is easing somewhat and more projects are moving forward. We really need a large hotel built downtown and hopefully that happens sooner rather than later. The market will support it but I'm not sure if the powers that be at the city will let the zoning occur to let it happen.

At the end of the day a better Cleveland makes for a stronger region.

In any event, for further reading enter the phrases below into the google machine.

googleeph2 wrote:Peeker, in the 1980s, the Great Lakes region was considering allowing a pipeline to run fresh lake water south and west, to drought areas. Thankfully, that seemed to die. Instead of sending resources out, we should be attracting people and industry back to NEO. They take our population and then want our water too? Eff that.

What impact does water supply have on business growth in the modern age? Mostly just to support a population? Or does it still have a manufacturing role?

googleeph2 wrote:Peeker, in the 1980s, the Great Lakes region was considering allowing a pipeline to run fresh lake water south and west, to drought areas. Thankfully, that seemed to die. Instead of sending resources out, we should be attracting people and industry back to NEO. They take our population and then want our water too? Eff that.

What impact does water supply have on business growth in the modern age? Mostly just to support a population? Or does it still have a manufacturing role?

Clean fresh water is the "gold" of the future.

To the original point, Jimmy will develop the Browns into a winner.

No, Jimmy will not be developing Burke.

Couldn't agree more. Florida, Texas, and California combined use up a quarter of this country Fresh water, and their aquifers are almost tapped. For once midwest politicians did the right thing over the easy thing , and nixed that pipeline, I see a future where industry is forced to move back to the Great Lakes region to take advantage of our copious amounts of cheap fresh water. It is crucial that our politicians continue to protect are greatest natural resource. If they do that, and responsibly exploit the shale gas, this region could be in for prosperous times.

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman

Since it doesn't sound like a roof is a possibility (Haslam said on a radio interview that that got blown out of proportion and he didn't know if there was a 25% chance of it happening or a 1% chance), what refurbishments to the stadium would you like to see to "spice it up"?

Hikohadon wrote:Since it doesn't sound like a roof is a possibility (Haslam said on a radio interview that that got blown out of proportion and he didn't know if there was a 25% chance of it happening or a 1% chance), what refurbishments to the stadium would you like to see to "spice it up"?

Cheerleaders. Also, they should looking into getting some old broken down guitar player to form a band. You could put them on the sideline to play during timeouts. It would be awesome.

Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

Sure, but I'm not sure how you get around the FAA outside of an act of congress. My civics is very vague when it comes to that.

The Port ceded like 20 acres North of the stadium to the city and that will be developed in conjunction with the Browns. Initial plans look like it will also include a Cleveland Clinic sports medicine facility.

I met my Spergon Wynn's mom once in a bar in Houston. It was a little awkward.

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

I think we can all agree on that, but let's concentrate on the stadium for now, since that's what Haslam is actively looking to improve.

How about partial roofs over the north and south sections like they have in Seattle to give people their precious protection but more importantly reverberate the sound?

Protection from what rain, b/c those designs don't protect you from snow or the cold.

Personally I don't see why Haslem has a bug up his ass about upgrading this stadium itself, it is what it is (which is a pretty nice new age stadium) and it isn't the problem with Cleveland Browns football.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

I think we can all agree on that, but let's concentrate on the stadium for now, since that's what Haslam is actively looking to improve.

How about partial roofs over the north and south sections like they have in Seattle to give people their precious protection but more importantly reverberate the sound?

That would be cool, but it gets you no closer to using the facility for conventions and other indoor events. It's still just an 8 times a year plus a Chesney concert stadium. I don't see anyone dropping a few hundred mil to make the place louder.

Industry may well move back but industry is going to be far different than what it was in 50', 60's and 70's. Automated to the hilt with far fewer people needed. Again, techs and skilled trade folks will benefit. Don't graduate with marketing degree and expect to out-earn an electrican or CAD expert or a plumber. You'll have physical buildings that house all of this but people will be far fewer. You'll still need to people to turn on the lights and put out the fires when a machine goes down, but this won't be shoulder to shoulder, long term production jobs for people.

The US is already production-fuel positioned. Very, very cheap and that positions US well. That cost keeps dropping while transportation fuels climb. Not sending as many people to and from factories and production centers may help keep US dependence on those transportation fuels steady or decrease them.

Best and brightest will still be best and brightest. I see tech jobs going crazy over next 50 years too as so much data wil be available and process refinement required to fuel the innovation that that's where the jobs will be. That and the trades as noted above.

Crazy innovation and progress already sweeping through banking/financial industry (and Progressive is sickeningly behind here) to eliminate the paper pushing, the paper and the paper pushers). We have automated banking and such now but the 'automated' part of that is is in its infancy.

In a lot of ways the revolution has begun. But it's gonna pick up speed. And Cleveland should benefit from all of it if they play their hand right.

motherscratcher wrote:That would be cool, but it gets you no closer to using the facility for conventions and other indoor events. It's still just an 8 times a year plus a Chesney concert stadium. I don't see anyone dropping a few hundred mil to make the place louder.

As I said in another thread on this subject, the time to cap the place would have been during the initial build. A brand new convention center is already going up a few blocks south of CBS. To try and make it an indoor venue for conventions and such is far too late.

Unless you transport the big ferris wheel from the I-X Center and run the Indoor Amusement Park down off the lakefront then by all means dome it!

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

I think we can all agree on that, but let's concentrate on the stadium for now, since that's what Haslam is actively looking to improve.

How about partial roofs over the north and south sections like they have in Seattle to give people their precious protection but more importantly reverberate the sound?

That would be cool, but it gets you no closer to using the facility for conventions and other indoor events. It's still just an 8 times a year plus a Chesney concert stadium. I don't see anyone dropping a few hundred mil to make the place louder.

The place ain't gettin a roof.

Move on.

I simply asked what improvements THAT AREN'T A ROOF would you like to see them make, since he's already said he wants to refurbish the stadium FOR FOOTBALL GAMES.

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

I think we can all agree on that, but let's concentrate on the stadium for now, since that's what Haslam is actively looking to improve.

How about partial roofs over the north and south sections like they have in Seattle to give people their precious protection but more importantly reverberate the sound?

That would be cool, but it gets you no closer to using the facility for conventions and other indoor events. It's still just an 8 times a year plus a Chesney concert stadium. I don't see anyone dropping a few hundred mil to make the place louder.

The place ain't gettin a roof.

Move on.

I simply asked what improvements THAT AREN'T A ROOF would you like to see them make, since he's already said he wants to refurbish the stadium FOR FOOTBALL GAMES.

I agree. I wasn't srumping for a roof. My point was that I don't see what a roof gets you right now. And I sure as shit don't know what getting you half a roof gets you either.

As far as other improvements, fuck if I know. It's a stadiuim that has seats and a scoreboard and sells beer. What else is there?

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

Sure, but I'm not sure how you get around the FAA outside of an act of congress. My civics is very vague when it comes to that.

The Port ceded like 20 acres North of the stadium to the city and that will be developed in conjunction with the Browns. Initial plans look like it will also include a Cleveland Clinic sports medicine facility.

My geography is vague, but why does Burke need to be an emergency airport for Hopkins (20 mins away) when Akron's airport is about 35 minutes away?

EDIT: Woops, it's 55 minutes away. Question still stands, though.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

Sure, but I'm not sure how you get around the FAA outside of an act of congress. My civics is very vague when it comes to that.

The Port ceded like 20 acres North of the stadium to the city and that will be developed in conjunction with the Browns. Initial plans look like it will also include a Cleveland Clinic sports medicine facility.

My geography is vague, but why does Burke need to be an emergency airport for Hopkins (20 mins away) when Akron's airport is about 35 minutes away?

EDIT: Woops, it's 55 minutes away. Question still stands, though.

Not sure how difficult it would be to relocate an airport of Burke's minimal importance, but I bet the relative value of whatever development took its place would be worth it.

I do believe that they have auditioned and selected cheerleading and dance team squads. A couple guys I work with have seniors at Padua who told their parents that a couple 20-21yr old Padua alum made one of those squads.

No comment on that one way or the other, just passing along what I was told last week.

WiFi? Jesus, you can't get the 3g service with five bars to actually work in that place.

googleeph2 wrote:Seriously though, I don't know about the stadium itelf, but I've heard of the lakefront described as something Cleveland 'turns its shoulders' to. That needs to change. Open it up, and figure out a way to use Burke. So it's on a landfill- so is CBS. Plenty of models to emulate- someone mentioned Chicago. You don't need to build huge structures on the thing.

Sure, but I'm not sure how you get around the FAA outside of an act of congress. My civics is very vague when it comes to that.

The Port ceded like 20 acres North of the stadium to the city and that will be developed in conjunction with the Browns. Initial plans look like it will also include a Cleveland Clinic sports medicine facility.

My geography is vague, but why does Burke need to be an emergency airport for Hopkins (20 mins away) when Akron's airport is about 35 minutes away?

EDIT: Woops, it's 55 minutes away. Question still stands, though.

Not sure how difficult it would be to relocate an airport of Burke's minimal importance, but I bet the relative value of whatever development took its place would be worth it.

It would be difficult. because as mentioned above dealing with the FAA.....Good Christ if you got 20 or so years they'll work with you.

And, as also mentioned previously, there are going to be HUGE issues with the land itself. Hell, the freeway in front of Burke was built over water.

Anyways, I don't blame any current regimes for the disaster that is Burke, it's the dumdasses 100 years ago that didn't understand what they had.

This mirrors the Stadium situation - the imbeciles in charge shoulda used there f'ing heads BEFORE these places were built in the first place.

Wanna dome the stadium? It'll cost you millions more than if you did it initially. Wanna develop Burke? Shoulda done that at the turn of the GD century.

" In reality, closing the airport made the airspace less restrictive. When the airport was open, downtown Chicago was within Meigs Field's Class D airspace, requiring two-way radio communication with the tower.[10] The buildings in downtown Chicago are now in Class E/G airspace, which allows any airplane to legally fly as close as 1,000 feet (300 m) from these buildings with no radio communication at all.[11]"

I met my Spergon Wynn's mom once in a bar in Houston. It was a little awkward.

I used to be pretty pissed about Burke and eventually I found out a few facts that put things in perspective. Bottom line is it seems doubtful that it will ever be developed.

1.) It is built on a landfill which makes it unsuitable for most any kind of construction.

2.) The FAA uses it as an emergency airport for Hopkins. Post 9/11 the rules were rewritten about such things and it's my understanding that Burke is the only airport that fits the bill.

Burke is vrey important for another reason, if you want business you need a business airport nearby. Having a downtown airport is a big advantage. It averages almost 200 take-offs/landings a day, imagine adding those into Hopkin's air traffic. Businesses maintain aircraft because commrcial flying just doesn't get it.

It's also very important with medical flights into Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital. Cleveland Clinic has a fleet of jets that fly all over the world bringing patients ($$$$$$$$) here. It's also an important maintenance hub for the rotary wing air medical flight services.

Back to Triple's post, how much money does the airshow bring into Cleveland every year? How much did the IndyCar races bring in? Those were three day events, and attracted over a hundred thou$and people. Not many from this forum obviously, but IndyCar Fan money is just as good as anyone else's.

I used to be pretty pissed about Burke and eventually I found out a few facts that put things in perspective. Bottom line is it seems doubtful that it will ever be developed.

1.) It is built on a landfill which makes it unsuitable for most any kind of construction.

2.) The FAA uses it as an emergency airport for Hopkins. Post 9/11 the rules were rewritten about such things and it's my understanding that Burke is the only airport that fits the bill.

Burke is vrey important for another reason, if you want business you need a business airport nearby. Having a downtown airport is a big advantage. It averages almost 200 take-offs/landings a day, imagine adding those into Hopkin's air traffic. Businesses maintain aircraft because commrcial flying just doesn't get it.

It's also very important with medical flights into Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital. Cleveland Clinic has a fleet of jets that fly all over the world bringing patients ($$$$$$$$) here. It's also an important maintenance hub for the rotary wing air medical flight services.

Back to Triple's post, how much money does the airshow bring into Cleveland every year? How much did the IndyCar races bring in? Those were three day events, and attracted over a hundred thou$and people. Not many from this forum obviously, but IndyCar Fan money is just as good as anyone else's.

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman