Why Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.

And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's charactersAlso in this essay "Even if I did believe" :"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."

The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.

Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.

This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "

(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.

Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.

Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.

Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)

Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.

Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.

Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).

There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".

More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.

Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)

But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.

This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.

A general problem that makes Christians do the wrong things and fail to understand and do the right things: their essentialism, mistaking the moral qualification of an action with its nature or intention, disregarding the context; their inability or refusal to understand the consequences of their actions. They make this systematic, by the following childish reasoning and set of more or less hidden, unquestioned assumptions:There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.

So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?

For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Because it ended the ancient world with its evil and cruelty to restore decency, human rights....

Idiot....it never ended anything.In fact, religious wars, persecution and crimes are being committed by Christianity which when combined with the atrocity of a fucking pixie against human means your religion is evil to the core!!!!!!

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

______

It's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity, The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsies all the more stupid and gullible.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie. Jesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooos, uh, I mean "people." And you, like the idiot you are, can't use simple common sense to see how patently ridiculous the concept is. The God Jesus was SENT by another God to pretend to die on a Roman Cross. Did God the Father go along with the God Jesus to pretend to die as well? Did the Holy Ghost God get nailed to the cross too?

Take a gander at this, you weasel:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/trinity.html

All the Trinity is, is a made-up piece of Church baloney.

Going to buy any square-circles or square-triangles at Walmart on Black Friday? Hell, Walmart might even have Moe, Curly, and Larry dolls that are ONE doll on sale as well. But don't expect the three to each go their own way. They can't if they're only ONE doll.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie. Jesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooos, uh, I mean "people." And you, like the idiot you are, can't use simple common sense to see how patently ridiculous the concept is. The God Jesus was SENT by another God to pretend to die on a Roman Cross. Did God the Father go along with the God Jesus to pretend to die as well? Did the Holy Ghost God get nailed to the cross too?http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/trinity.htmlAll the Trinity is, is a made-up piece of Church baloney.Going to buy any square-circles or square-triangles at Walmart on Black Friday? Hell, Walmart might even have Moe, Curly, and Larry dolls that are ONE doll on sale as well. But don't expect the three to each go their own way. They can't if they're only ONE doll.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie. Jesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooos, uh, I mean "people." And you, like the idiot you are, can't use simple common sense to see how patently ridiculous the concept is. The God Jesus was SENT by another God to pretend to die on a Roman Cross. Did God the Father go along with the God Jesus to pretend to die as well? Did the Holy Ghost God get nailed to the cross too?http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/trinity.htmlAll the Trinity is, is a made-up piece of Church baloney.Going to buy any square-circles or square-triangles at Walmart on Black Friday? Hell, Walmart might even have Moe, Curly, and Larry dolls that are ONE doll on sale as well. But don't expect the three to each go their own way. They can't if they're only ONE doll.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

Post by GreywolfJesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooos, uh, I mean "people." And you, like the idiot you are, can't use simple common sense to see how patently ridiculous the concept is. The God Jesus was SENT by another God to pretend to die on a Roman Cross. Did God the Father go along with the God Jesus to pretend to die as well? Did the Holy Ghost God get nailed to the cross too?

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

Post by GreywolfJesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooos, uh, I mean "people." And you, like the idiot you are, can't use simple common sense to see how patently ridiculous the concept is. The God Jesus was SENT by another God to pretend to die on a Roman Cross. Did God the Father go along with the God Jesus to pretend to die as well? Did the Holy Ghost God get nailed to the cross too?

Wow, you are certifiably nuts.

I'm not the one who believes ONE God is made-up of THREE Gods. YOU do! You feakin' nut.

No. The "comedy show" is YOU claiming ONE God is made-up of THREE Gods.

Look at it this way: You've gone to Walmart and bought one of those magical Moe, Curly, and Larry Dolls. But Moe, Curly, and Larry, are just ONE doll. Can Moe send Curly to die on a Roman cross while He stays lying next to you in bed?

I don't think so.

That would only work if Curly were independent of Moe. But then you wouldn't have ONE doll any longer, you'd have TWO. Right?

But you'll respond with some more of your buffoonery and display what a retard you truly are. Doesn't that get old for you after a while?

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

Mat 28:19-20 -- AS I'VE POINTED OUT TO YOU SO MANY TIMES BEFORE.

That's you lying again. Show me when and where you did so "many times" before.

'm not the one who believes ONE God is made-up of THREE Gods. YOU do! You feakin' nut.

You can run but you can't hide.

Forever talking stupid. What do you think you gain for being such an obstinate terd?

Gonna buy those Moe, Curly, and Larry dolls Walmart is having on sale Cyber Monday? They're all ONE Moe, Curly, and Larry doll. But since they form only ONE doll, Curly can't leave to go get crucified on a Roman cross--unless Moe and Larry go with him and they all three get crucified at the same time and on the same cross.

You don't think ONE God can turn into THREE independent beings and still be ONE being, do you? That would be simply nuts of you. But since you ARE nuts . . . .

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

Mat 28:19-20 -- AS I'VE POINTED OUT TO YOU SO MANY TIMES BEFORE.

That's you lying again. Show me when and where you did so "many times" before.

Post by GreywolfJesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooosuh, I mean "people."

Heeheehee. No, 3 "persons".

per·son/?p?rs(?)n/nounnoun: person; plural noun: people; plural noun: persons; noun: first person; noun: second person; noun: third person1.a human being regarded as an individual.So, God is made up of THREE "individual" Gods who are "human beings. Right.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

Mat 28:19-20 -- AS I'VE POINTED OUT TO YOU SO MANY TIMES BEFORE.

That's you lying again. Show me when and where you did so "many times" before.

Constantly done so.

I didn't ask you to lie again. I asked you to SHOW me when and where.

What do you think you're perpetual lying achieves? Makes you a better "Christian" or something. You're just being a complete idiot, you know.

Post by GreywolfJesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooosuh, I mean "people."

Heeheehee. No, 3 "persons".

per新on/?p?rs(?)n/nounnoun: person; plural noun: people; plural noun: persons; noun: first person; noun: second person; noun: third person1.a human being regarded as an individual.So, God is made up of THREE "individual" Gods who are "human beings. Right.

Nope, you big dummy, 3 PERSONS

Didn't you see the definition? an "person" is a "human being," you imbecile.

Damn, are you ever pathetic. Your next of kin must be hiding under their beds out of shame as a result of your mockery of the Christian faith.

You haven't told them you're actually worshiping Satan with your diseased behavior, but just like to THINK it's God you're worshiping, have you?

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

Mat 28:19-20 -- AS I'VE POINTED OUT TO YOU SO MANY TIMES BEFORE.

That's you lying again. Show me when and where you did so "many times" before.

Constantly done so.

I didn't ask you to lie again. I asked you to SHOW me when and where.

You were the victim. You already know.

Post by GreywolfWhat do you think you're perpetual lying achieves? Makes you a better "Christian" or something. You're just being a complete idiot, you know.

Post by GreywolfJesus certainly didn't teach His disciples that God was made-up of 3 yahooosuh, I mean "people."

Heeheehee. No, 3 "persons".

per?on/?p?rs(?)n/nounnoun: person; plural noun: people; plural noun: persons; noun: first person; noun: second person; noun: third person1.a human being regarded as an individual.So, God is made up of THREE "individual" Gods who are "human beings. Right.

Nope, you big dummy, 3 PERSONS

Didn't you see the definition? an "person" is a "human being," you imbecile.Damn, are you ever pathetic. Your next of kin must be hiding under their beds out of shame as a result of your mockery of the Christian faith.

I can't believe you are this stupid.

Post by GreywolfYou haven't told them you're actually worshiping Satan with your diseased behavior, but just like to THINK it's God you're worshiping, have you?

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

They 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you. You really should try "atheistobserver.com". Itmight help you in you understanding.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

There's the idea that Yahooey suffers from dissociative identitydisorder(previously known as multiple personality disorder):one ghod with 3 alters.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

There's the idea that Yahooey suffers from dissociative identityone ghod with 3 alters.

Except that the point you miss is that as all 3 divine, they were of one thoughtonly.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

There's the idea that Yahooey suffers from dissociative identityone ghod with 3 alters.

Except that the point you miss is that as all 3 divine, they were of one thoughtonly.

One person can fill multiple roles. I was a naval officer, an accountant and a gun owner.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

There's the idea that Yahooey suffers from dissociative identityone ghod with 3 alters.

Except that the point you miss is that as all 3 divine, they were of one thoughtonly.

One person can fill multiple roles. I was a naval officer, an accountant and a gun owner.

Grey has a hard time grasping such things.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there. And if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there.

But Jesus became flesh, fully flesh, and thus as man did not know the date.

Clearly you can't wrap your head around Jesus was man for 33 years, and itwasn't until the end of his 3 years ministry that he likely learned of his truemission and that maybe, just maybe, he began to grasp who he really was.

Simply put, if you can't grok Jesus as flesh, you'll never understand.

Post by linuxgalAnd if one might beforgiven for blaspheming God the Son, but not for blaspheming God theHoly Spirit, that's three gods right there.

Of course, but the 2nd person if the triune Godhead spent 33 years living asonly flesh in the body. The entire idea is for flesh to teach flesh the ways ofGod to man. The first covenant of God teaching flesh did not do well.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by dukeThey 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you.

But if God the Father knows the timing of the Day of the Lord, but Godthe Son does not, then that's two gods right there.

But Jesus became flesh, fully flesh, and thus as man did not know the date.

He burned the cookies too, LOL!!! And his inbred dad didn't do a goddamned thing when the half Catholic half Jew Hitler burned 6,000,000 of his special ones. Fuck off you stupid twat.<remaining christer drek flushed>

Hitler's mother was not a Jew, so he was not a Jew. You're lying again.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

He didn't. Trinitarianism is a Church lie.

Jesus went to the cross over it.

No, that's just you lying once again. Point to a passage in Scripture where Jesus says God is made up of three "persons."

They 're not 3 God but one God in 3 persons. But you know that as many times asI've explained it to you. You really should try "atheistobserver.com". Itmight help you in you understanding.

How did the fucking writer knew that????????????????We know they are lying shits.........

Post by dukethe dukester, American-American*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

I think it is more like a 3-headed creature that is your pixie...

Post by dukethe dukester, American-American*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

I think it is more like a 3-headed creature that is your pixie...

There are no 3-headed creatures except in a freak show. Weren't you a worker atone?

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

If jebus is god, and people saw jebus, why do you keep saying that no man has ever seen god?

I know why. Because you're an idiot, a fat idiot with the mind of a retarded child.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

If jebus is god, and people saw jebus, why do you keep saying that no man has ever seen god?I know why. Because you're an idiot, a fat idiot with the mind of a retarded child.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

If jebus is god, and people saw jebus, why do you keep saying that no man has ever seen god?I know why. Because you're an idiot, a fat idiot with the mind of a retarded child.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

If jebus is god, and people saw jebus, why do you keep saying that no man has ever seen god?I know why. Because you're an idiot, a fat idiot with the mind of a retarded child.

Post by GreywolfIt's based on patently flagrant lies piled atop one another. And when it comes to Trinitarian Christianity,The Church claiming three Gods are only one God makes their incredibly stupid and gullible patsiesall the more stupid and gullible.

If the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

If jebus is god, and people saw jebus, why do you keep saying that no man has ever seen god?I know why. Because you're an idiot, a fat idiot with the mind of a retarded child.

Jesus, according to the Christians is the Son of God. dimwit.

Show us the evidence that there is a pixie!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stupid yap is too immature to grow up. And until he can show it, there is notpoint is doing anything but ignoring him.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by dukeIf the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

Jesus explicitly denied that he was God.Matthew 19:17 ...Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,that is, God...

You dummy. That's one of the reasons that supports Jesus as fully man whodidn't come to understand who he truly was until just before the cross.

Gods are omniscient, Duke. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

Post by dukeIf the "triune Godhead" is not true, why did Jesus Christ give it to us.

Jesus explicitly denied that he was God.Matthew 19:17 ...Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,that is, God...

You dummy. That's one of the reasons that supports Jesus as fully man whodidn't come to understand who he truly was until just before the cross.

Gods are omniscient, Duke. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did.

"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did."Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-jesus-diminish-his-divine-power-to-become-humanYou're not a very good theologian, although you pretend to be one.You're more like a cultist.

___________

And you like a brainwashed, religiously-diseased victim of Christianity's lies.

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did."Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-jesus-diminish-his-divine-power-to-become-humanYou're not a very good theologian, although you pretend to be one.You're more like a cultist.

___________And you like a brainwashed, religiously-diseased victim of Christianity's lies.

Yep, quoted it man times TO THIS VERY NG..

Philippians 2:6-7 New International Version (NIV)6Who, being in very nature[a] God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his ownadvantage;7rather, he made himself nothingby taking the very nature[b] of a servant,being made in human likeness.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did."Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-jesus-diminish-his-divine-power-to-become-humanYou're not a very good theologian, although you pretend to be one.You're more like a cultist.

___________And you like a brainwashed, religiously-diseased victim of Christianity's lies.

Yep, quoted it man times TO THIS VERY NG..

When and where?

Post by dukePhilippians 2:6-7 New International Version (NIV)6Who, being in very nature[a] God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his ownadvantage;7rather, he made himself nothingby taking the very nature[b] of a servant,being made in human likeness.

You didn't read the two-part article, did you?

Jesus was BORN a hybrid God-Man and was God *throughout* His time on earth. There is no way a God turns Himself into a non-God and, at the same time, perform miracles--like walking on water, raising dead people to life, and causing fig trees to wither and die through force of will.

Explain just how a God turns Himself into a non-God while remaining a God.

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did."Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-jesus-diminish-his-divine-power-to-become-humanYou're not a very good theologian, although you pretend to be one.You're more like a cultist.

___________And you like a brainwashed, religiously-diseased victim of Christianity's lies.

Post by dukePhilippians 2:6-7 New International Version (NIV)6Who, being in very nature[a] God,did not consider equality with God something to be used to his ownadvantage;7rather, he made himself nothingby taking the very nature[b] of a servant,being made in human likeness.

You didn't read the two-part article, did you?Jesus was BORN a hybrid God-Man and was God *throughout* His time on earth.

The issue is not what he was but what he showed to other men. The wereimpressed with the man Jesus who was seen only as a man.

Post by GreywolfThere is no way a God turns Himself into a non-God and, at the same time, perform miracles

That's just it. He didn't perform magic tricks.

Post by GreywolfExplain just how a God turns Himself into a non-God while remaining a God.

He hid it, just like you hide your intelligence.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did."Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-jesus-diminish-his-divine-power-to-become-humanYou're not a very good theologian, although you pretend to be one.You're more like a cultist.

God is omniscient. If Jesus didn't know something, then hewasn't God. If he became God just before the cross, then he stillwasn't God because Gods are also eternal. You don't turn God on and off.

We don't because we can't. But He can, and He did.

Believers are cheating themselves, so it is ok!!!

Post by Bob"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with Goda thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of aservant, being born in the likeness of men."[Philippians 2:6,7]https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/did-jesus-diminish-his-divine-power-to-become-humanYou're not a very good theologian, although you pretend to be one.You're more like a cultist.

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Meaningless.

See, for theists, an excellent piece of message is meaningless........Theists never like to reflect on their evil religious intention.

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Meaningless.________________

Yes, everything you say is meaningless. You don't know squat about evidence, lies, proof, or anything other than being an asshole.

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evilthat takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the

same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.

Post by Cloud HobbitSo, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Good message!!!!!!!

You just got a blow job from a pagan, didn't you.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil葉hat takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the

same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.

Post by Cloud HobbitSo, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Good message!!!!!!!

You just got a blow job from a pagan, didn't you.

You theists are so stupid that you can never agree to anything beautiful, let alone logical message!!!!!!!!

Post by dukethe dukester, American-American*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by Cloud HobbitFor example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Good message!!!!!!!

You just got a blow job from a pagan, didn't you.

You theists are so stupid that you can never agree to anything beautiful, let alone logical message!!!!!!!!

Stupid asses like you can never support your make up lies.

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil葉hat takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the

same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.

Post by Cloud HobbitSo, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

That fucker owes me money. What's the use of being in the pay of Satanwhen the bastard takes his own sweet time cutting the checks?

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

That fucker owes me money. What's the use of being in the pay of Satanwhen the bastard takes his own sweet time cutting the checks?

You should have know better just using my words as support..

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

That fucker owes me money. What's the use of being in the pay of Satanwhen the bastard takes his own sweet time cutting the checks?

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

That fucker owes me money. What's the use of being in the pay of Satanwhen the bastard takes his own sweet time cutting the checks?

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

That fucker owes me money. What's the use of being in the pay of Satanwhen the bastard takes his own sweet time cutting the checks?

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings(of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages,we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or moreefficient ways to do the good.

You actually had a secret meeting with satan to be suckered in with that, didn'tyou!!!

That fucker owes me money. What's the use of being in the pay of Satanwhen the bastard takes his own sweet time cutting the checks?

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Sounds like you don't understand Christianity.

Sounds like what he said made you emotional. MAybe you should stick to praying for lawn tools, fake christer tool.

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Sounds like you don't understand Christianity.

Sounds like what he said made you emotional. MAybe you should stick to praying for lawn tools, fake christer tool.

maybe that would be a waste of time. maybe your response was emotionally based.

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Sounds like you don't understand Christianity.

Sounds like what he said made you emotional. MAybe you should stick to praying for lawn tools, fake christer tool.

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.So, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Sounds like you don't understand Christianity.

None of the atheists do.

We understand that your Christianity is an evil con religion!!!!!!!!!!!

And no theist here is able to dispute the facts presented in Cloud's post...not a single one!!!!!!!

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.And also, because it defines holiness by conformity to their assumed characters of God which they describe as a stupid psychopath and bloody tyrant. Indeed, why do Christians claim to believe that God's characters include "justice" and "goodness", if by "justice" they mean cruelty (desire to send us all to hell for "our sins" that he let us no decent choice to avoid by the way He created us), and by "goodness" they mean injustice (punishing Somebody else instead of us and judging us on our faith rather than our deeds) ?See more about God's characters"The thesis of this essay is that even if a God as described in the Bible does exist, he is not fit for worship.If I had undeniable proof of the existence of Yahweh (...), I still would not worship the bastard. My primary reason for not being a Christian (...) is that the Bible is a disgusting book describing the behavior of a god without the morality of the average high school student."The Biblical God does everything to mean that he wants to be worshiped and wants people to remain sorts of sheep and children that cannot do anything on their own but remain under His close dependence and necessity to pray for anything, rather than to do any decently efficient good that would let us free and independent. And usually for terrible results.All this in direct contradiction with other claims of the same doctrine, that God is also such a devout worshiper of our absolute freedom, that he'll prefer to let "us" (or rather the natural course of things) destroy the Earth in the name of His kindness and absolute respect of our freedom, rather than bring any assistance to stop the plague.Here is Weinberg's view on Christianity."The prestige of religion seems today to derive from what people take to be its moral influence, rather than from what they may think has been its success in accounting for what we see in nature. Conversely, I have to admit that, although I really don't believe in a cosmic designer, the reason that I am taking the trouble to argue about it is that I think that on balance the moral influence of religion has been awful.This is much too big a question to be settled here. On one side, I could point out endless examples of the harm done by religious enthusiasm, through a long history of pogroms, crusades, and jihads. (...) On the other side, many admirers of religion would set countless examples of the good done by religion. For instance, in his recent book Imagined Worlds, the distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson has emphasized the role of religious belief in the suppression of slavery.(...)Where religion did make a difference, it was more in support of slavery than in opposition to it. Arguments from scripture were used in Parliament to defend the slave trade. Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery (...) she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evilthat takes religion. "(However I would not agree with him that religion is the only way for good people to do evil; I think this happens naturally in many ways, but only that religions, including Marxism, contribute to make these risks worse and more systematic)Of course, most Christians will strongly disagree with such a judgement, have no clue what it can be based on, and claim it must be unjustified. Without trying to be exhaustive, let's give a few clues and references on the issue.Christians are blind to the consequences of preaching the Gospel on people's lives. They claim that Jesus will change their life for the better, but this is a mere belief in the usefulness of their religion for people's lives or social sustainability through its morality standards, but this is just what they guess things should be if they were right, unsupported by any observational evidence. While some people have positive testimonies (genuine or just for being praised by other Christians ?), they will never want to understand or admit the devastating consequences it may produce as well, that is the Religious Trauma Syndrome.Then, instead of admitting their fault in the trauma they caused to the people whose trust they (sincerely) abused by telling (holy) lies in God's name, they systematically reject the fault on their victims. So, behind their childish belief in the idea that they have a religion of forgiveness, the truth is that they make the innocent victims of their own wrong actions feel terribly guilty. Here is a testimony about this.Earth: a gift fromGodMost of Christianity promotes homophobia (which in particular led to the death of one of the founders of computer science)Christianity deletes or at least direly underestimate the concern for the protection of the environment, that is our heritage from millions of years of evolution that is being irreversibly destroyed just now for the millions of years to come, with as an only justification (whenever they bother justifying themselves) their arbitrary belief that Jesus will soon come back and destroy the Earth with all its contents anyway.Religion generates despise and social exclusion against those who dare have the misfortune to think sanely and rationally, treated as the enemies of God, guilty of "pride" or whatever. In the same way it can also make a trouble to the chances for serious people to find love, either in the same way (through social exclusion) or by denying the difficulty and taking too seriously the call for trust in God.Christianity delayed the development of science in Europe for about a millennium (in the middle ages).There are a number of Christian terrorist organizations: IRA, KKK, anti-abortion terrorism; and in the past, of course, crusades and killings of heretics and "witches".More generally, here is a list of examples of wrong actions that Christianity generates.Christians usually dismiss cases of wrong things done in the name of Christianity, as not Christian, just because, for them, Christianity is just about doing right things (but then, why isn't the Bible reduced to the simple command "Act good" ? what is the proof that its teachings aren't leading to do the wrong things, if its contents had to be revealed by God rather than logically and provably deduced from this simple command ?)But, let us remember what was the motivation for what is currently seen as one of the most indefensible actions make by the Church long ago : crusades and burning "witches". Why did they do it ? Their argument was that they are burning people to save them from hell because, with their heresy or practices they would otherwise go to hell. So, Christians thought: if I were in their place, I would much prefer to be burnt this way for my salvation, rather than live and be doomed to hell.So, Christians of that time were strictly following the golden rule: do to others what you would like others to do for you. They had no bad intention at all. They were just sincerely trying to follow God's will. You can accuse those crusaders of anything, but not of being bad in themselves, nor of refusing to obey God's will. And they had no way to guess that God's will was anything else than this.This illustrates a very general point: that acting good is often not a matter of intention or of being good in oneself, but of having the right information on the world.Still, most Christians remain blind to this.There is no point to try to understand anything about the world because it is trivial: holiness is a matter of simple-mindedness, so that the only way to the truth is the one of childishness and oversimplificationFor everybody, the right thing to do is trivial, given by God's will and directly put by Him under their eyes; or, it would be impossible for man to have any reliable clue about right or wrong unless it is dictated to him by God.There is no other possible cause or influence to human suffering, than the direct will by men to do the wrong thing; nothing can stop bad people from doing wrong things, as long as they remain the same in their heartsGod is so generous that he will let bad people do their wrong actionsThe idea that any suffering could be caused by anything else than people's wrong intentions, or would be unnecessary with some given set of human bad intentions or imperfections, would be an intolerable blasphemy (suspicion that God did not create everything perfect with a perfect freedom for us to do and live exactly what we intend to), and must thus be rejectedIfever any well-intended people do something wrong, it does not matter and we should not think about it because these people and anybody they happened to hurt will go to heaven anyway. Or, if what they did was really wrong, then they were in fact bad peopleThus, human suffering testifies that the world is full of big bad wolves, and all the problem is hereThus, the only good thing to do for the world is to try to change big bad wolves into sheep. Or better (since the latter would be impossible), to change big bad wolves into forgiven big bad wolves, who will keep making this world a hell like now but will go to heaven anyway instead of the hell they deserve)The one, only and efficient way to change big bad wolves into sheep forgiven big bad wolves is to pray for them and preach them the gospelThe development of this exclusive obsession and crusade towards everybody becoming good in themselves forgiven for their badness, is the one and only way to be good in oneself;Any care outside the values of the heart and intentionality, would be evil (make people the enemies of moral values, or an intolerable insult to the people who focus on the heart and intentionality that would be accused of something else than their intentions, which is an inconceivable criticism); any claim to understand anything else about the world, any plan to help it in any other way, would mean hubris and a revolt against God's will;Such a pride is one of the main evils in the world.But their blindness to the difference between intentions and the consequences of actions, is leading them to actions focused on good intentions that ignore their real consequences worse and worse (because, for them, intentions are all what matters to please God and reach heaven while complex rational understanding of other cause-to-effect relationships has no spiritual value), which worsens the ignored problem. How the hell can then God judge people who were led by previous false teachings, to "sincerely" dedicate their good will to spread these false teachings and do the wrong things (by mistaking them with the right things) and to make the world's sufferings worse and worse out of blindness and unconsciousness by/for making the navel of their own hearts holier and holier (more selfless in their self) ? What a terrible conundrum they are giving Him to handle in this way ! Only God knows how to cope with it :-( And if there is no God but just karma or whatever, the problem is

the same: the question of right and wrong makes no more sense. Indeed what is a good action when good intentions produce bad consequences ? Maybe the bad consequences should be no more understood as coming from men, but from a natural disaster (the sociocultural force of memes) that controls humans actions like puppets.

Post by Cloud HobbitSo, religions save human responsibility with respect to suffering, by abandoning the world to a natural (cultural) disaster. Yeah right. Good or bad ? So, humans suffer more of the consequences of actions which are no more theirs (but those of the memes that control them) but will go to heaven anyway because their heart is purified. Wonderful.So, Christianity (as well as many other religions and non-religions), misinterprets morality as an intrinsic character: as a matter of being rather than having (to be good in oneself, rather than to have done actions that have useful consequences on the well-being of others). It insists on principles but cannot operate correctly the application of these principles in concrete situations. What's the point of insisting on morality principles if their application turns out to be selfish (to the improvement of one's virtue and intentions) and failing to fulfil the object of those very intention (the well-being of others) ?For example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

Sounds like you don't understand Christianity.

None of the atheists do.

We understand that your Christianity is an evil con religion!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, Joe. Can I laugh at him for you?

Post by Cloud HobbitAnd no theist here is able to dispute the facts presented in Cloud's post...not a single one!!!!!!!

the dukester, American-American

*****The Purpose of the NT Word of God is not to inform as it did inthe OT,but instead to form us in the very image of Jesus Christ.*****

Post by Cloud HobbitWhy Christianity is EvilChristianity is evil, because its beliefs and practices do produce much sufferings (of course while never intending to do any evil, but rather as collateral damages, we may say), and distract well-intended people from searching for better or more efficient ways to do the good.

Let's see the evidence.

Post by Cloud HobbitFor example, one of the intended lessons of Christianity is to value love and sacrifice, give to the poor and respect the miserable. However in practice (like many others), Christians usually don't share love but mock and despise the poor in love. Their principle of self-sacrifice turns out to be reduced to empty words, failing to meet its practical chances of applications.See also in links, in particular "Atheists and Anger"

So? Humans are not perfect. Christians have a moral code, which puts them way above you.

Post by Mitchell Holman"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks theideals of Christianty. Our movement is Christian"Adolf Hitler, Oct 27 1928

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I wantyou to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good. Ourgoal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called byGod, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't wantpluralism." - Randall Terry

When do they ever live up to their claimed "moral code"?They ignore it except to beat others over the head with it.

Post by Mitchell Holman"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks theideals of Christianty. Our movement is Christian"Adolf Hitler, Oct 27 1928

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I wantyou to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good. … Ourgoal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called byGod, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't wantpluralism." - Randall Terry

ROTFL! ...and you think that is according to Christianity?HAHAHAHAHA! You can't be that STUPID.

"In Hitler's early political statements, he attempted to express himselfto the German public as a Christian. In his book Mein Kampf and inpublic speeches prior to and in the early years of his rule, hedescribed himself as a Christian. Hitler and the Nazi party promoted"Positive Christianity", a movement which rejected most traditionalChristian doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus, as well as Jewishelements such as the Old Testament. In one widely quoted remark, hedescribed Jesus as an "Aryan fighter" who struggled against "the powerand pretensions of the corrupt Pharisees" and Jewish materialism.

While a small minority of historians accept these publicly stated viewsas genuine expressions of his spirituality, the vast majority believethat Hitler was skeptical of religion and anti-Christian, but recognizedthat he could only be elected and preserve his political power if hefeigned a commitment to and belief in Christianity, which theoverwhelming majority of Germans believed in."(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler)