Yeah, beings that live for thousands of years can learn a lot. You know what else they can do? Forget. Become jaded. Lose patience. Experience doesn't just pile up and stay forever even if your body stays the same. Tyrande has always been a rash person. She's had endure a lot of shit too. A boyfriend that waited 10,000 years to propose after falling asleep for hundreds or even thousands of years at a time. The whole war of the shifting sands. Velen has led the draenei for 25,000 years, always on the run til they found draenor. Then what happens? The orcs become the servants of their demonic pursuers and expelled them from the home they'd finally found. The night elves and draenei have had far too long to stagnate. The humans are a relatively fresh race still going for their potential reminding the older races of lessons they'd forgotten.

Also, you don't consider Vol'Jin a hero? Not nice man. He's a shadow hunter. Not exactly a guy to bask in the limelight. Doesn't mean he isn't a hero because he doesn't seem to demand fan wank.

Yeah, beings that live for thousands of years can learn a lot. You know what else they can do? Forget. Become jaded. Lose patience. Experience doesn't just pile up and stay forever even if your body stays the same. Tyrande has always been a rash person. She's had endure a lot of shit too. A boyfriend that waited 10,000 years to propose after falling asleep for hundreds or even thousands of years at a time. The whole war of the shifting sands. Velen has led the draenei for 25,000 years, always on the run til they found draenor. Then what happens? The orcs become the servants of their demonic pursuers and expelled them from the home they'd finally found. The night elves and draenei have had far too long to stagnate. The humans are a relatively fresh race still going for their potential reminding the older races of lessons they'd forgotten.

Evolution and history are pointless then. Because humans win. Never trolls, never undead, never dwarves.

Also, you don't consider Vol'Jin a hero? Not nice man. He's a shadow hunter. Not exactly a guy to bask in the limelight. Doesn't mean he isn't a hero because he doesn't seem to demand fan wank.

What did he do aside from speaking two lines during liberation of his isles (from just one witch doctor) and being stabbed in a new scenario? A troll will never lead an assault on an army of demons, because it's a human job to be the hero race. Tauren, trolls, naga, dwarves, they are all props for the human magnificence and orc honor/bloodlust shenanigans. It's Warcraft.

Last edited by Haven; 2013-01-15 at 07:18 AM.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

It's pretty much the entirety of Varians story in MoP. In other words, pretty much the entire alliance faction story, since he's involved in that in one way or another, either directly or through his son.

So the 5.2 part will obviously deal with Jaina. Since, you know, Kirin Tor and stuff.

Evolution and history are pointless then. Because humans win. Never trolls, never undead, never dwarves.

What did he do aside from speaking two lines during liberation of his isles (from just one witch doctor) and being stabbed in a new scenario? A troll will never lead an assault on an army of demons, because it's a human job to be the hero race. Tauren, trolls, naga, dwarves, they are all props for the human magnificence and orc honor/bloodlust shenanigans. It's Warcraft.

Wow, you're a pretty pessimistic person huh? "Why bother living life if I need to be reminded things along the way. We should all just die if we can't be perfect after a while." Is the vibe I get from that.

Trolls practically ruled the world in their ancient empire. Tauren don't want anything big, you know because they're tauren a nomadic people made of tribes. Naga? Naga are mutated evil night elves. Undead? They're undead. They aren't a 'race'. They're a people. How do you want the undead to 'win' exactly? Wipe out all life and make them forsaken?

Vol'Jin helped Thrall establish the horde in the first place, he got Chen and Rexxar into Theramore to stop their attacks back in W3, he got all the factions he could to combat the initial assaults of the Zandalari and wasn't a little bitch about getting the alliance to help too.

First part of trial of the High King is the little patient scenerio. It's also kinda funny that people are surprised that Varian could teach Tyrande about patient. Tyrande has always been pretty reckless since WotA. She is the kind of person who act before think. It has been showed many times in the novel and WC3. I can't count how many times Mal had to slow her down. This is coming from nightelf fanboy.

First part of trial of the High King is the little patient scenerio. It's also kinda funny that people are surprised that Varian could teach Tyrande about patient. Tyrande has always been pretty reckless since WotA. She is the kind of person who act before think. It has been showed many times in the novel and WC3. I can't count how many times Mal had to slow her down. This is coming from nightelf fanboy.

The problem is that Blizzard tore her down and made her look completely incompetent to advance Varians character. That is unacceptable. Tyrande may be reckless, but she was never stupid.

The problem is that Blizzard tore her down and made her look completely incompetent to advance Varians character. That is unacceptable. Tyrande may be reckless, but she was never stupid.

Why she has to be incompetent just because she made 1 wrong decision? The decision she made was not even wrong but it was just not the most efficient. She would have won the battle anyway but would have lost a lot of people. I think it's more about showing Varian's growth as a king rather than making Tyrande incompetent like you said. I hate a character that is flawless and always do the right thing. People make mistake all the time even someone like Malfurion,Cenarius.

Wow, you're a pretty pessimistic person huh? "Why bother living life if I need to be reminded things along the way. We should all just die if we can't be perfect after a while." Is the vibe I get from that.

It's the matter of cause and consequence, a matter of price and reward. I can deal with the idea that some assholes live in luxury and easily cheat their way to the top, but I can't comprehend how a character suddenly becomes a saint and gets for free all the experience and feats that others have given thousands of lifetimes and shed rivers of blood and tears for. Everything should have a price, and effect has to be adequate to the cause.

Trolls practically ruled the world in their ancient empire. Tauren don't want anything big, you know because they're tauren a nomadic people made of tribes. Naga? Naga are mutated evil night elves. Undead? They're undead. They aren't a 'race'. They're a people. How do you want the undead to 'win' exactly? Wipe out all life and make them forsaken?

Trolls got completely obliterated by first humans (after defeating the Aqir empire). Undead are characters, too. I mean not winning on a small factional level, I mean something big and central to the storyline.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Because as a military leader you can't make stupid decisions that end with your entire force decimated and then say "oops mah bad, I'll try better next time! lol"

It shows she lacks the competence to command a military force. You aren't allowed to make mistakes when lives rely on your ability to strategize and neutralize targets.

it's not really about you can't effort to make a mistake but it's fact that people make mistake all the time. Tyrande has made many mistakes before and she will make more in the future. That's just life.

it's not really about you can't effort to make a mistake but it's fact that people make mistake all the time. Tyrande has made many mistakes before and she will make more in the future. That's just life.

But when she makes a mistake in a military position that causes the death of almost all her soldiers it is time she gets replaced.

It's the matter of cause and consequence, a matter of price and reward. I can deal with the idea that some assholes live in luxury and easily cheat their way to the top, but I can't comprehend how a character suddenly becomes a saint and gets for free all the experience and feats that others have given thousands of lifetimes and shed rivers of blood and tears for. Everything should have a price, and effect has to be adequate to the cause.

Trolls got completely obliterated by first humans (after defeating the Aqir empire). Undead are characters, too. I mean not winning on a small factional level, I mean something big and central to the storyline.

Name one thing Varian has that he hasn't had to fight tooth and nail to keep. Saw his father assassinated by his friend, saw his kingdom destroyed, Lothar the man who was like a second father to him killed in battle with the horde, then once his kingdom was won back all the men and women that had fought to liberate it disappeared through the dark portal so so long friends and heroes that returned his homeland, took a wife who was promptly killed after they had a child, then the events of the comics where he was a slave fighting in the arenas and even took the slightest bit of respect away from it for at least one orc, then once he finally gets back and takes command, he finds out Arthas who had been like a little brother to him while he and his people were in Lordaeron has become the lich king and then when the fight against said lich king begins his best friend who had taken care of his son while he was away is killed(at least to his knowledge), in his short story he was pretty much killed defending Anduin from the twilight's hammer, now his son the one thing he's barely managed to hold onto was just about killed.

Now for the human race as a whole in Warcraft. A race of children all abandoned by their parents with nothing but scrolls with legends of Tyr and the titanic watchers of Northrend. They fended for themselves and learned from Tyr's valor and wrecked the asses of the troll empire helping the elves who were overwhelmed. How have Varian or the Warcraft humans not given thousands of lifetimes or rivers of blood to get where they are? They didn't even have the luxury of living for thousands of years. They learned what they could with their short lives and pushed limits.

But when she makes a mistake in a military position that causes the death of almost all her soldiers it is time she gets replaced.

No, not all of her soldiers would have died. Some people will have just died like every battle out there. She would have won anyway as stated by her. People lost their lifes in war is a normal thing to happen but Varian's plan is just the most efficient way. Not a single drop of blood was shed because of Varian's plan. All credits go to Varian here and it's not Tyrande's fault. You could read their conversation as a source of what I said.

No, not all of her soldiers would have died. Some people will have just died like every battle out there. She would have won anyway as stated by her. People lost their lifes in war is a normal thing to happen but Varian's plan is just the most efficient way. Not a single drop of blood was shed because of Varian's plan. All credits go to Varian here and it's not Tyrande's fault. You could read their conversation as a source of what I said.

And as a military leader she should always strive to use the most efficient wau that limits the loss of life on her side. Instead she was too incompetent to even notice such an option.

I'm under the impression now that Trials of the High King will essentially be the scenarios with other leaders. I don't have a problem with it, aslong as they aren't as bad as Tyrande's which didn't exactly get things off to a good start.