The shoe is good but no longer produced for Mad Rock. Fits a wide to medium foot and has allot of heel tension. Better read this fast before Scott Miller ask them to remove the posting. Its produced by Climb X and currently sold under that brand name unless some stores have older stock. The price has also gone down on this product. The Dual density sole has been removed on the new production and other upgrades made. One of the managers here on the site is deleting any comments made that are not favourable to Mad Rock so good luck getting inforamtion from this site.

Cool off a bit and wait for a reply from the site managers. It's been a long weekend in South Africa (with the emphasis on Africa). Not incompetent, just chill

You'll find that throwing accusations around on the forum might steam up some of the members; cause we like the site managers and I for one have never had a query gone unattended too. Bitching around like this will not do you, or the brand you're trying to promote, any good.

I also don't see it as ethical for manufacturers to give opinions regarding products on an open forum, be it their's or others (products). Conflict of interest. I second Hanns sentiments regarding the boycott.

I'm with Hann and Pierre on this one.I seriously disliked his "tone" and have in the space of a short morning, developed a mental block against this copy cat brand. Joe, get your facts straight man, dont underestimate us Saffas!

I personally know and really like Justin and Riki, (climbza) and Tristan(competition to brands I work for) so I find your comments even more offensive.

I will be supprised if climb x succeeds to a point where the opinions will change. It's not that I hope they fail, but if mad rock moved its production facility to Vietnam purely to keep production costs low, how will the guy producing the same goods in China, where mad rock was, be able to compete on price without a reduction in quality and its not that Mad Rock has the best rep when it comes to quality to start with. Also there seems to be a lot of untruths muttered from the mouth of Joe Garland. Can you trust the products with your life if the president of the company can't tell you the truth about them. Anyway just my 2c.

Could be. I think it's relatively safe to assume they had a bitch-fight of note and both sides are now feeding the public half baked cabbage. Obviously both are likely to suffer losses, but as long as the other one suffers more it's OK (that's where "cut your face comes in", amongst other). I don't know much about their quality issues, I only have (much improved) shoes and I don't trust in shoes in any case. I'm just saying that a boycott isn't needed or necessary. We also can't agree to judge that what we don't know and we won't know, because the only guy who might know has already chosen sides. Besides, who's going to buy from someone they don't like in any case? Buy what you can trust, like and afford.

What I meant about the opinions that change is (amongst other less obvious reasons) that stuff like this has happened before, but when everything cooled down, people bought it.

While I'm "in the mood", I find it interesting that the "origin" and "owner" of the song is also in question. The name Miller also seems to pop up everywhere. Coincidence? I think so.

Hey Hann, yes, I've read a thing or two about this particular Joe Garland too, but it wasn't in particular enlightening, since I see hardcore business people in similar light as politicians and the light is pretty dim.

Wayne73 wrote:Hey Shortiits not that Mad Rock has the best rep when it comes to quality to start with

What quality issues? I certainly had none, and no-one else I know who climbs in them has had any. The shoes I've had the biggest quality issues with have been Five Ten and Evolv (based on approx. 5 pairs of Five Tens and 1 pair of Evolvs).

I have not climbed with the shoes. Did some research a while ago about the shoe on the market and a lot of opinion on international forum were that the Mad Rock shoes were of inferiour quality (hey it was on the internet so it must be true ) To be fair their was also a number of responses stating that the quality was fine. So in my opinion mad rock shoes had a reputation for not being up to quality. As all my posts are just opinionated rants it is proberbly better not to read anything I post.

Apologise to all involved at Mad Rock and to any users out there who I may have offended.

I haven't climbed in the concept/flicts personally but I have heard very good things about them. I own demons which I love to bits, they edge incredibly well, heal hooker like velcro and smear on glass. They are slightly different to the con series as they have a slightly stiffer sole.

If you are planning on a lot of very steep bouldering or climbing or gym climbing, the cons are good. If you are planning on longer vertical routes that involve small holds for feet or technical footwork then I'd recommend the demons. Just take into account that they do stretch a little so consider buying them a half size small...

I hate this real world place... I'd be more than happy to live out there rather...

I am a retailer as well as a wholesaler. I have had a fair number of my posts deleted. It would be interesting to see guide lines to see what's acceptable for industry people to say and what isn't. There's a definitive grey area between useful information and advertising IMHO.Robert Breyer, CityROCKretailer of all things climbing relatedimporters of FiveTen, Evolv, Metolius, prAna, Aliens, Trango.

@JonI don't reply to product queries on this forum (but I'm not sure your initial question was answered) as I feel that it unfairly scews the sample audience - after all this is a public forum and you are after user-feedback not manufacturer / brand sugar-coated-sweet-talk. If you were after this you'd no doubt have visited madrock.co.za and asked for your question to be answered there?

[Despite your join-date, I assume that you are a legit SA climber and not a pseudonym for Joe to start a thread?]

Judging by forum norms you are likely to get wildly varying answers and opinions - some of merit, others taking the piss. But such is the nature of your audience. For my (advertorial-slanted) opinion / recommendation, feel free to PM me or visit the local site.

As for Joe's assertion that they are no longer available from Mad Rock USA, I've just cleared a shipment last month of them, and due to demand there is another on it's way early May. If any ClimbX-branded Con-flicts miraculously appear in my box, I'll charge less for more...as apparently that's what they are.

@Hann, as I point out in another thread, competition is not the devil incarnate. When the legalities are sorted out in the states (remember this is a penal system that let OJ off, and found a camper-van manufacturer guilty of misinformation when a lady put her camper-van on 'cruise-control' and expected it to drive itself around corners, so ANYTHING is possible) the world will hear. I know that you and the millions of climbers out here are on tenter-hooks...but IMO its status quo until I see a Con-flict in a store I never sold 'em to and realize that they are not Mad Rocks :-)

Just glad enough people popsted on here to keep it from being deleted again. I'll try to get to as many things as I can.

1) No one will find a conflict that was made in vietnam (check the label) because there have not been any made there. Any stock Tristan has or gets was produced at the Climb X factory before we stopped production for Mad Rock. Easy enough for anybody to look a the shoes and see this is true. Tristan is a straight shooter I doubt he will lie to anyone about his. We are the original producer and dont need to make a copy of a product we designed and have the tooling and paterns for. Mad Rock may or may not have a copy of this made at a new factory in the future but as of yet no one has seen one.

2) I was clear to post under my own name and identify myself. I also contacted the website and ask them about advertizing, and the rules/guidlines on posts.

3) Yes it has been frustrating and apears bias to have all my origina post deleted, even those not related to any of our products. It seems others business people in SA are aware of this and have had the same issues. Bring the issue up here on the site and naming names at leasts seems to have stopped it from continuing.

4) Hann????? OK its a cool photos and user name so I'm not gonna reply to any of your comments. Hann, you rule.

5) Yes if you google me you will find my friends have posted some untrue things to make me look really good and some non friends have posted some untrue things to make me look really bad. Wow hard to believe this sort of thing can happen on the internet. Some of the bad things are true and maybe one or two of the good things.

6) Scott Miller, hope married life is treating you ok. We are all still shocked somebody marrried you. Tell your friends here to quit picking on me and deleting my posts. I respect their loyalty but fair is fair.

Keep in mind:You arrived at this forum with bad attitude. A forum were most of us are friends of the forum owners, moderators and Mad Rock importers and dealers. These all have been accused of some wrong doing by you, and all have denied.

So I stand by my opinion of you.I will change this opinion once you have proven otherwise.

After following the two threads on ClimbX, I think I will avoid said products should they ever be stocked here; not because of quality, but because Mr Garland has managed to irritate the living daylights out of me. Joe, it does not make a good impression on people when you consistantly whinge about posts being deleted (which the moderators considered to be blatant advertising. Although I never got to read them due to them being deleted, the moderators in my experience do not go out of their way to sensor the forum without good reason). Secondly, if you have an issue with Scott Miller, this forum is not really the place to air your dirty laundry and be slanderous - especially since it has been rather clearly stated that he is not responsible for deleting your posts.

Sometimes products speak for themselves (and that is normally after enough people have bought, tested, and given good reviews of the item). In this case, however, the image you are presenting of ClimbX is a rather unprofessional one, in my humble opinion.

Well, that is my 2c worth. Has anyone else got the same overall impression as me, or am I just suffering from "Pre-weekend Blues"?

A sure way to win market share:- insult a guy whose name you'll see a lot in route guides for the Western Cape - what's with the personal insult on Scott? - accuse/whine at Justin for being 'unfair' (cry my a river biatch)- photoshop your logo onto an existing product

pfffffttt, seeing the ways people have cut into each other's person & character (go read some posts on issues like bolting @ yellowood etc) i think joe whatsisface is getting a pretty bad deal on being singled out for his rather wounded&accusational posts. fact is that all the "facts" here are based on opinion (right or wrong) and conflicting messages from people with obvious vested interests.

"boycott" - if climbX brings quality shoes at a competitive price into SA they'll sell, end of story. if anybody wants moral arguments to come into the picture you better not buy anything manufactured in china, india, vietnam etc (child labour; paltry wages; complete disregard for IP etc etc.) for instance, go compare the design of the k-way annapurna tent with the mountain hardwear trango (i think) and it will be pretty obvious who copied & pasted - yet us saffas happily buy k-way at half the price of the mountain hardwear tents yadda yadda yadda

That said, in terms of Yellowwood, that is slightly different in the sense that that discussion and the associated character assassination came down to climbing ethics (or possibly lack of them? Lets not go down that route now, though). This comes down to giving a company a bad name before even managing to get their products on the market. It comes down to first impressions. Also, most of the people swinging their handbags on the Yellowwood saga are prominant climbers in S.A. and for the most part know each other personally; maybe it's just that I take umbrage to some unknown person coming in with accusations and personal attacks?

For me it's nothing to do with morals (I'm probably wearing at least one item of clothing right now that was made in a Chinese sweatshop ). And maybe you are right; if they do end up stocking their products here and they are excellent and cheap, I may be a hypocrite and end up buying them.

yebo guys, i just wanted to bring a bit of balance into all of this - maybe the courts will shut down climbX or maybe there's a not-so-new-kid on the block or maybe it will just all blow-out and fall over. time will tell.

i think there's a distinct possibility that warren sent an anonymous mail to joe saying that this scott miller guys has been deleting his posts; knowing that joe will complain bitterly with much anger & wrath & frothing-around-the-mouth about it and the rest of us will be up in arms to protect our beloved scottie's good name.... or maybe joe's industrial espionage network is completely de-funct and shorti's been double dealing under the table with crooked information. another possibility is........