Helmut Marko wont be too happy as usual as they are nowhere near the win required to join RBR! This is obviously relative about the car, but results alone they are doing far worse than Alguersuari last year, who was treated like rubbish because they thought he was "average" according to Marko.Both drivers are quite matched in results but none of them excelled so far.What do you think? It is likely that one of them (or both) may get good results next year? Do you think both will be sacked or will someone survive?

Ricciardo is outperforming Vergne by a mile, and anyone how actually watches them closely can see it. Too bad the results don't show the whole picture but I believe RBR are aware of Ricciardo's impressive (in my view) drives.

Ricciardo is outperforming Vergne by a mile, and anyone how actually watches them closely can see it. Too bad the results don't show the whole picture but I believe RBR are aware of Ricciardo's impressive (in my view) drives.

Really?Well, Alguersuari also had impressive races and drives, look what they did to him.

Laura23 wrote:

Ricciardo will replace Webber in the big team in 2014. Vernge will lose his drive because I can see STR being on the grid come 2014, they'll be looking for a buyer next year.

I dont know why Ricciardo is so highly rated. What has he done so far?

Last edited by nixxxon on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

To me, it looks like Ricciardo is the better qualifier by a good margin, but Vergne is the better racer. Both will be there for 2013, and what happens then is likely to decide what happens to their F1 careers in 2014. I'd bet on TR getting two new drivers for 2014, so we'll have to see if they end up like Vettel or like Speed (or anything in between).

To me, it looks like Ricciardo is the better qualifier by a good margin, but Vergne is the better racer. Both will be there for 2013, and what happens then is likely to decide what happens to their F1 careers in 2014. I'd bet on TR getting two new drivers for 2014, so we'll have to see if they end up like Vettel or like Speed (or anything in between).

Yet Ricciardo has actually finished higher than Vergne in 12 of the last 13 races, and scored points in the last 5 of 7 races, whereas JEV has only scored points in the last 2 of 7 races.

[I do not count Korea as Daniel was 10 seconds up the road in their final stint when his brakes failed and he ceded the positon to JEV - so Spa is the only race of the last 13 that Vergne has outperformed Ricciardo].

The won't be sacked there contract won't be renewed past the end of 2013 probably. There is no surprise in that. Thats the Toro Rosso runs. It exists to bring new drivers into the sport. Its not doing that if they keep hold of people for 3/4 years. Its almost irrelevant how good they are.

To me, it looks like Ricciardo is the better qualifier by a good margin, but Vergne is the better racer. Both will be there for 2013, and what happens then is likely to decide what happens to their F1 careers in 2014. I'd bet on TR getting two new drivers for 2014, so we'll have to see if they end up like Vettel or like Speed (or anything in between).

Yet Ricciardo has actually finished higher than Vergne in 12 of the last 13 races.

[I do not count Korea as Daniel was 10 seconds up the road in their final stint when his brakes failed and he ceded the positon to JEV - so Spa is the only race of the last 13 that Vergne has outperformed Ricciardo].

So you do count Italy, where JEV had a rollbar failure?So you do count Singapore, where JEV was running for points when Schumacher crashed into the back of him?So you do count USA, where JEV had a suspension failure?

In Abu Dhabi, JEV was on a worse strategy than Ricciardo and had bad timing for SC, consistently having been faster on mediums (Ricciardo was faster on hards though).

The list could go on and on, and yes, there probably are similar points for Ricciardo as well (Korea is just one example), but looking at the grand scheme of things, it's like this:If you look at stats alone, that can be misguiding, over the course of the entire season, only when both have finished, regardless of circumstances (that's why stats aren't always good), my quick calculations show these average finishes:

Ricciardo 12.2857143Vergne 12.5714286

NOTE: This is only one side of things. Things can be discussed from many sides, all sides welcome.My point still stands - both should drive in 2013, and then we'll see what happens.

To me, it looks like Ricciardo is the better qualifier by a good margin, but Vergne is the better racer. Both will be there for 2013, and what happens then is likely to decide what happens to their F1 careers in 2014. I'd bet on TR getting two new drivers for 2014, so we'll have to see if they end up like Vettel or like Speed (or anything in between).

Yet Ricciardo has actually finished higher than Vergne in 12 of the last 13 races, and scored points in the last 5 of 7 races, whereas JEV has only scored points in the last 2 of 7 races.

[I do not count Korea as Daniel was 10 seconds up the road in their final stint when his brakes failed and he ceded the positon to JEV - so Spa is the only race of the last 13 that Vergne has outperformed Ricciardo].

If you watch the live timing screens during the race Vergne is usually the quicker. he does need to improve quali though if he wants to have a career in the sport.

Unfortunate for them to be measured against each other, they may both be crap or brilliant and we won't know it.

Just between them i would say Ricciardo is by far the better qualifier, he has put that car in place it just can't see with Vergne.

But both usually end up in the same place in the races which can mean that either that is the car's potential (it is closer usually to where Vergne has qualified) or Vergne is a better races. I suspect it is the former.

Interesting to see Vergne has a 2 point lead to Ricciardo in the standings, but i guess for them a freak result does account for a lot given that the car is right next to Caterham in the pecking order.

I would wish for Ricciardo to continue, but F1 is not known for its fairity now is it?

Vergne is not quicker during the races lately - and I have spent a lot of time in recent races watching the two on live timing, so can't agree with that Mikey.

Earlier Vergne often was a bit quicker, but usually because he needed to do an extra stop than Daniel (who was given the conservative strategy because he was softer on the tyres) so JEV had to drive more aggressively to make that strategy work. Now that the team has worked the tyres out a bit more they are doing the same number of stops and Vergne is consistently finishing behind Ricciardo.

IMO what happens to Ricciardo and Vergne towards the end of next year depends on their performance and what is happening with Red Bull. TBH I think that unless Red Bull decides that one of them has excellent potential and is showing the progress they're looking for, they'd rather stick with their current combination of Vettel and Webber, particularly given the uncertainty associated with the regulation changes for 2014, but that equally depends on whether Vettel does indeed have an option with Ferrari that circumstances result in him taking that up and whether Webber wants to/is still good enough to continue for another year. Red Bull do need to start considering a succession plan for the current combination, though, because even if they don't leave next year it won't be much longer before one or both of them does.

Best guess IMO is that Vettel stays for 2014 because Red Bull performs well enough next year that they can hang onto him even with a potential Ferrari option and Red Bull promote Ricciardo. I think of the two Toro Rosso drivers at the moment he's the best bet because he has the distinct advantage of qualifying better regardless of their comparative racing and although that's not seeing results in the Toro Rosso because he is going backwards during races due to car performance, it is something that will be beneficial in a car further up the grid, particularly one like the Red Bull.

If Kimi sticks around for 2014. There are already rumblings he is thinking of leaving F1 again, it's not like he has to prove anything now after this year. I can't see him being keen on the new engines either.

Vergne is not quicker during the races lately - and I have spent a lot of time in recent races watching the two on live timing, so can't agree with that Mikey.

Earlier Vergne often was a bit quicker, but usually because he needed to do an extra stop than Daniel (who was given the conservative strategy because he was softer on the tyres) so JEV had to drive more aggressively to make that strategy work. Now that the team has worked the tyres out a bit more they are doing the same number of stops and Vergne is consistently finishing behind Ricciardo.

Yes, I watch live timing closely too and I have to agree that Dan has been comfortably better than JEV during races in the 2nd half of this season.

On Ricciardo/Vergne pairing in terms of outright speed: this is what teams look for first and foremost when looking to the future and one would have to draw a long bow to say that Vergne is Ricciardo's equal in this aspect (e.g. Maldonado v Senna). Unlike Maldonado though Ricciardo has shown he can race wheel to wheel and keep his nose clean, including a successful defence of position with a multiple WDC hot on his tail who had fresher tyres (Japan)...and he's shown great consistency in pace.

Vergne's apparent race pace advantage has been more to do with his aggressive strategies and also him starting with more tyres to use as he is usually gone in Q1.

I don't understand the whole Vergne is a better racer stuff. Did people miss all of Ricciardo's passes at the US GP? He was actually past his team mate within a few laps. There is no chance Jean-Eric would have gotten ahead. I'll admit there pace advantage during the races is no were near what it is during qualifying, but Ricciardo is well ahead in qualifying and still ahead during the races.

Vergne is a great driver no doubt, but Ricciardo is on the next level. I think Ricciardo has shown all the traits that Vettel showed in his early career, if not more.

Also don't be so sure Webber will retire anytime soon. He knows that Schumacher is still fast in his mid 40's. He knows that he isn't losing any pace and seems more competitive this year against Seb compared to any other year of their partnership (as in 2010 he was really only winning due to sebs poor mechanical luck) it wouldn't surprise me at all if Webber isn't ready to retire for another 3 years atleast. Its everyone else talking of retirement because of his age, which to him is a meaningless number if his performances are still strong.

Personally if I was Ricciardo id be looking around for another non Red Bull drive.

Vergne's apparent race pace advantage has been more to do with his aggressive strategies and also him starting with more tyres to use as he is usually gone in Q1.

I don't understand the whole Vergne is a better racer stuff. Did people miss all of Ricciardo's passes at the US GP? He was actually past his team mate within a few laps. There is no chance Jean-Eric would have gotten ahead. I'll admit there pace advantage during the races is no were near what it is during qualifying, but Ricciardo is well ahead in qualifying and still ahead during the races.

Vergne is a great driver no doubt, but Ricciardo is on the next level. I think Ricciardo has shown all the traits that Vettel showed in his early career, if not more.

I tend to agree. If you put things in context and look beyond where Dan has consistently finished in races (4 x 9 places) I think we are watching the rise of a new talent in F1. As an example, all people see is a 12th place and no points in the US GP, yet if you look closer you find that Dan, on the same strategy as Button, was within 8 seconds of the vastly superior McLaren at over half race distance. That's pretty amazing I think.

I was really surprised by the lack of recognition for Daniel in the last race. So okay he finished 12th, but there was no mid-field attrition and that's a car that on pace should be finishing 17th or 18th, and but for a silly strategy of leaving him out too long he could have got 10th.

But most of all he pulled off some really, really nice passes in places outside the DRS zone. Yet Autosport gave him a 6/10 for the weekend and JEV 7/10. What's a guy got to do to get some love?

I was really surprised by the lack of recognition for Daniel in the last race. So okay he finished 12th, but there was no mid-field attrition and that's a car that on pace should be finishing 17th or 18th, and but for a silly strategy of leaving him out too long he could have got 10th.

But most of all he pulled off some really, really nice passes in places outside the DRS zone. Yet Autosport gave him a 6/10 for the weekend and JEV 7/10. What's a guy got to do to get some love?

p.s. how the hell did Vergne get 7/10 rating after starting 4 places ahead of his teammate and being 4 places behind him by the time of his retirement?? Baffling...just goes to show that some only watch the front runners I guess...