CJS wrote:As had been said again and again, there's plenty of unobstructed crowdline to be had.

Not if you like to take take off/ landing shots there isn't - the red sector crowdline is packed out about 30 mins after the gates open. Blue sector is taken up with all the chalets and corporate 'stools' and if you were to attempt it from the Green sector you would need a 600mm lens with a 1.4x AND a 2.0x converter on it! Modern fighters can turn so tightly if you are in Red or Green you won't see much of a fast jet display.

Anyway, I tend to find that the flying is mostly above the height of the corporate tents

True - but the tent is right in front of you and the aircraft is half a mile away so if you were to be behind the tents/ chalets a good % of the display WILL be blocked by the obstruction in front of you (I had exactly that problem when I was directed to park behind the Cosford Club at Cosford this year where I would've preferred to have been able to stay close to the car due to the poor weather). And all the space behind the chalets etc is fenced off for the storage of their 'support equipment' which stays there untouched all weekend.

Not.....going.......to.......happen.......

Yes - I know I'm basically "tilting at windmills" with all of this as DBH are in conspiracy with the 'blue blazer'/ LinkedIn crowd. But it won't stop me from feeling frustrated that RIAT has gone so far out of their way in an attempt to ruin what was previously a great experience. It won't be long before the best chance of an unobstructed view will to be had from Kempsford camping rather than on the showground - you can see why the likes of Totterdown are so popular.

CJS wrote:As had been said again and again, there's plenty of unobstructed crowdline to be had.

Not if you like to take take off/ landing shots there isn't - the red sector crowdline is packed out about 30 mins after the gates open. Blue sector is taken up with all the chalets and corporate 'stools' and if you were to attempt it from the Green sector you would need a 600mm lens with a 1.4x AND a 2.0x converter on it! Modern fighters can turn so tightly if you are in Red or Green you won't see much of a fast jet display.

Let's not blow things out of proportion. I went to RIAT on Friday and Saturday this year, and on both days I managed to take pictures of take-offs and landings from the blue zone. Yes, there is not much space in the blue zone for normal admission tickets, and I can see why a lot of people are unhappy with the corporate stuff. But still there is some space between FRIAT and viewing village, and I'm not going to let a couple of tents get in the way of my enjoyment of the show.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.

Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom

Tom,Could you at least ask the question to your peers at DBH as to why the programme costs are so high?

Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.

Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom

Sure thing Tom. A Premier League programme is £3.50-£4 at most clubs. So not quite £15.

The comparison with Germany was that theirs are similar to the DBH book of adverts in terms of size and number of pages. Premier League programmes tend to be A5 and thinner.

Agreed - move the corporate tents and the chalets etc* South of the static and leave crowdline free of clutter.

(*) I'm prepared to make an exception for the FRIAT grandstand but even that should be moved back from the front of the crowdline so the rear of the grandstand is on the Northern edge of the taxiway where the static is parked and the area in front of the grandstand opened up to the general public.

Regarding the retail outlets well that is just DBH proving they will take £ from anyone as long as the cheque clears. Not sure why people buy non aviation specific tat at air shows when these days you will almost certainly get a better selection and more competitive price online - just wait til you get home!

Second this in spades!!!! It needs a massive overhaul, but like everything these days its all down to how much money can we rinse out of folk. All the corporate clots could visit on pre- show days like Farnborough, with the chalet for said people at one end of the crowdline, or better still behind the static.

jalfrezi wrote:I was in the green zone this year and it wasn't a great experience, everything seemed so far away. But as they say, if you can't beat them, join them - so I've gone Mach2 next year....

I see why you are doing this , but in essence your forced to pay a lot more money just to get a better view.It isn't right, the admission ticket alone is not a cheap deal, and if you buy a programme (I'm not jumping on to that thread) by the time you enter the showground proper, your almost £60 in the red.

Again, the phrase "better view" is entirely subjective. I've little interest in the aircraft on the ground, whether taxiing taking off or landing, so for me the view is perfect as long as I don't choose to stand right behind a grandstand (or one of the machine gun photographers with the 3 foot lenses ). Which would obviously be stupid so I don't do it.

You have a choice to by a FRIAT package. Quite clearly no-one is making anyone do it, and there is - there just is - plenty of crowdline to be had as long as you are prepared to get there early.

You may not like the chalets and the grandstands, but move them, lessen the view from them or remove them altogether and it's not difficult to see what will end up happening.

jalfrezi wrote:I was in the green zone this year and it wasn't a great experience, everything seemed so far away. But as they say, if you can't beat them, join them - so I've gone Mach2 next year....

I see why you are doing this , but in essence your forced to pay a lot more money just to get a better view.It isn't right, the admission ticket alone is not a cheap deal, and if you buy a programme (I'm not jumping on to that thread) by the time you enter the showground proper, your almost £60 in the red.

You're forced to pay more money for a better view...and this for some reason seems unfair to you? What about concerts...unfair that the better tickets cost more? Football? Flights? Is it unfair that business class costs more than economy?

No matter where you go, or what it is you're doing, better seats cost more. FRIAT is actually a bargain when you consider all the little perks that come with it (including the much maligned 15 pound program). I know that people think that it should all be the same regardless of one's ability to pay, but that just doesn't translate in to reality anywhere.

FRIAT are the best seats. They're also among the most expensive. If you don't like it you can pay less and get a subjectively "worse" view. Once again, that's just reality.

CJS wrote:Again, the phrase "better view" is entirely subjective. I've little interest in the aircraft on the ground, whether taxiing taking off or landing, so for me the view is perfect as long as I don't choose to stand right behind a grandstand (or one of the machine gun photographers with the 3 foot lenses ). Which would obviously be stupid so I don't do it.

You have a choice to by a FRIAT package. Quite clearly no-one is making anyone do it, and there is - there just is - plenty of crowdline to be had as long as you are prepared to get there early.

You may not like the chalets and the grandstands, but move them, lessen the view from them or remove them altogether and it's not difficult to see what will end up happening.

‘Theres plenty of crowdline to be had’ yes, to the left and right of the chalets and grandstand not directly central. This is where the issue commences. Why can it not be like Biggin Hill? Clear space throughout the whole crowdline which you are able to choose where you want to position yourself. When i’m standing in the east i get an eyeful to the west of chalets and flags. If i’m in blue in the west looking to my east and i’m not right af the front i can’t see whats taking off and i remember thats because the some of the grandstand is in the way and some of the enclosures. Its becoming more and more like Farnborough.

davidjones533 wrote:And how many home games per season are there? I.e. how many opportunities to make money from programmes compared to an annual event. Let’s not forget that RIAT are trying to raise funds for charity, whereas football clubs are under pressure to keep costs low for fans given their other, quite disgusting, levels of income from other sources.

Let's not forget that we don't know what kind of deals we're talking about when bringing in the Bundesliga. As Dan told us, Bayern, BVB und Schalke are about the same price. Makes me wonder if there isn't a deal between the DFB (German equivalent of the FA) and a printing company, bringing programs for ALL Bundesliga games under one contract. You might get more of a discount if you put those all under one deal. If that is a wrong assumption, maybe the clubs have contracts covering more than their football-programs, but also the programs for the other sports they participate in?

Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.

Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom

Sure thing Tom. A Premier League programme is £3.50-£4 at most clubs. So not quite £15.

The comparison with Germany was that theirs are similar to the DBH book of adverts in terms of size and number of pages. Premier League programmes tend to be A5 and thinner.

Thank you. As I don't frequent football matches I have no idea of costs for their programmes.

Yesterday I was taken to Anfield where, thankfully, Liverpool beat Leicester ( I follow Liverpool, my wife is a Foxes fan).

It was my 60th birthday present from my wife and as we,re not members of either club the only way to get tickets was to have a hospitality package.

For £180 per ticket we had a decent seat, access to the lounge at a nearby pub, a 2 course roast lunch and sandwiches and soup after wards and a programme. I also got to chat to Chris Lawler - one of the great players under Shankley and an England international.

A good day out but I get 4 days in a stand at Fairford for much the same money.