Metsfanmax wrote:This is an issue with implementation and enforcement, not necessarily the idea itself, of course.

While true, it logically places the onus on supporters of gun safes to ideate and present a program that is significantly different from every other program previously attempted before further advocacy on the concept as well as to describe the legal mechanism by which it could be accomplished (that is, some method that would not be a violation of the 4th Amendment).

One problem with this, probably the biggest, is that the NRA has actively opposed any and all collection of data on basically all such issues. Whether it is research tracking how many guns are used on household members versus intruders, safety in households with safely stored guns versus more accessible guns, etc .. the NRA has put pressure on various entities, most particularly the CDC to limit collection of the data.

The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

Metsfanmax wrote:This is an issue with implementation and enforcement, not necessarily the idea itself, of course.

While true, it logically places the onus on supporters of gun safes to ideate and present a program that is significantly different from every other program previously attempted before further advocacy on the concept as well as to describe the legal mechanism by which it could be accomplished (that is, some method that would not be a violation of the 4th Amendment).

One problem with this, probably the biggest, is that the NRA has actively opposed any and all collection of data on basically all such issues. Whether it is research tracking how many guns are used on household members versus intruders, safety in households with safely stored guns versus more accessible guns, etc .. the NRA has put pressure on various entities, most particularly the CDC to limit collection of the data.

It's not even the NRA, per say, they're some kind of shell for the Gun Manufacturers. The NRA has only 4 million members, but American gun manufacturers donate millions of dollars to the NRA every year to keep it highly influential.

Night Strike wrote:I support banning automatic weapons and heavy weapons (like RPGs) as well as making sure violent felons are kept from owning guns.

I think this is an area that needs much more investigation. Even when it comes to background checks, there is sort of the assumption that we actually know who IS a "violent criminal" who ought not to own a gun. Of course, there are plenty of obvious folks. Even the NRA leadership is happy to keep serial killers and most pschopaths away from guns. However, once you get past that, the definitions get tricky.

"Felon", for example tends to make one think of murders and such, but can include someone who, say, was arrested for blocking a nuclear power plant when they were in college or who was growing more than x amount of marihuana during times when enforcement was strict. While I am not suggesting these people ought to be nominated for "upstanding citizen" awards, is giving them a gun really going to endanger the rest of us?

On the other hand, as I already mentioned, people who abuse animals may only get a minor penalty... but might well be giving us a pretty good indication that they are truly dangerous individuals.

What we need is more data on these types of links. Who really does commit crimes? We will never eliminate all criminal gun use.. or rather, I should say making that our goal is unreasonable simply because it would be too oppressive for the rest of us. It would be like banning alchohol or cars because drunk drivers are dangerous.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

Why does "responsible" in your book and "common sense" in Obama's book ALWAYS equal more governmental regulations, control, and power?

PLAYER57832 wrote:"Felon", for example tends to make one think of murders and such, but can include someone who, say, was arrested for blocking a nuclear power plant when they were in college or who was growing more than x amount of marihuana during times when enforcement was strict. While I am not suggesting these people ought to be nominated for "upstanding citizen" awards, is giving them a gun really going to endanger the rest of us?

Which is why I said "violent felons" as it provides a little better clarity to which felons should actually be kept from having a gun.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

Why does "responsible" in your book and "common sense" in Obama's book ALWAYS equal more governmental regulations, control, and power?

Meh, Liberals disagree with Conservatives about what "freedom" means. I guess to simplify what I mean; there's another kind of Freedom that you get when there are no mass shootings anymore.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

Why does "responsible" in your book and "common sense" in Obama's book ALWAYS equal more governmental regulations, control, and power?

Meh, Liberals disagree with Conservatives about what "freedom" means. I guess to simplify what I mean; there's another kind of Freedom that you get when there are no mass shootings anymore.

You have about the same chance of being killed in a mass shooting as you do of being struck by lightning. Sounds like we will be losing MANY more freedoms for such a small perceived improvement in the human condition.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

Why does "responsible" in your book and "common sense" in Obama's book ALWAYS equal more governmental regulations, control, and power?

Meh, Liberals disagree with Conservatives about what "freedom" means. I guess to simplify what I mean; there's another kind of Freedom that you get when there are no mass shootings anymore.

You have about the same chance of being killed in a mass shooting as you do of being struck by lightning. Sounds like we will be losing MANY more freedoms for such a small perceived improvement in the human condition.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

Why does "responsible" in your book and "common sense" in Obama's book ALWAYS equal more governmental regulations, control, and power?

Meh, Liberals disagree with Conservatives about what "freedom" means. I guess to simplify what I mean; there's another kind of Freedom that you get when there are no mass shootings anymore.

You have about the same chance of being killed in a mass shooting as you do of being struck by lightning. Sounds like we will be losing MANY more freedoms for such a small perceived improvement in the human condition.

Yet the Lighting Rod exists.

Primarily to keep buildings and the electronics within them from being harmed by the lightning.

PLAYER57832 wrote:"Felon", for example tends to make one think of murders and such, but can include someone who, say, was arrested for blocking a nuclear power plant when they were in college or who was growing more than x amount of marihuana during times when enforcement was strict. While I am not suggesting these people ought to be nominated for "upstanding citizen" awards, is giving them a gun really going to endanger the rest of us?

Which is why I said "violent felons" as it provides a little better clarity to which felons should actually be kept from having a gun.

KoolBak wrote:The bad guys would definitely follow those laws. Every gun owner I know is a hunter as well and all hunters are required to pass an authorized Hunters Safety Program prior to acquiring hunting licenses....just sayin.

The intent of the training and safety courses is not to diminish the number of gun owners but to increase the effectiveness in self-defense of those who do own firearms. Isn't this something we can all get behind?

If someone really requires such training, then let them and/or their friends convince them to voluntarily take such classes.

A new survey from Gallup has discovered that Old White Men, a Withering and Dying Segment of Society (WDSS), support increasing gun restrictions by vast numbers while Dynamic Youth Culture oppose it. Dynamic Youth Culture, buoyed by their OWS-inspired activism against the torture of Bradley Manning, drone wars against the people of Libya and Pakistan, and warrantless government surveillance and phone-tapping, are continuing to stand-up against what they perceive as a burgeoning oligarchy, Gallup finds.

Meanwhile, Old White Men, desperately trying to cling to the fading embers of their control, are screaming for more government as they load-up on half-off Mom Jeans at Costco while annoying the samples ladies with stories about their great-grandchildren ...

... or complaining that Medicare didn't give them the "good drugs" after their hip replacement surgery ...

... or comforting people they meet on the street that they are just another 90-somethinger from the Senate, not a character from The Walking Dead ...

Juan_Bottom wrote:The list leaves out several responsible options that Biden is reviewing. This list should include Gun Owners Insurance, Mandatory Training with Instructors, Smart Gun Technology, and closing the Gun Show Loophole.

A - #2 is licensing and is included on the list

B - the Duke of Lancaster, the Grand Master of the Shriners, the Vice-President of the US, and holders of other ceremonial offices, don't set the popular discussion agenda - this list includes items that are topics of discussion in the popular narrative

Juan_Bottom wrote:It's not even the NRA, per say, they're some kind of shell for the Gun Manufacturers. The NRA has only 4 million members, but American gun manufacturers donate millions of dollars to the NRA every year to keep it highly influential.

a silly and dreary, cookie-cutter bogeyman argument

Kidney Care Partners - the advocacy group for people with renal failure - is funded by AMGEN which gets rich off manufacturing SENSIPAR, a drug given to kidney patients. IIRC, Duramed, makers of the Plan B pill, funds NARAL. The head of Autism Speaks (celebrated group that organized the Michael Savage boycott in '07) is the former Marketing Manager for the division of J&J that sells anti-autism drug Risperdal (known - as of 2 months ago - as the drug that gives people who take it diabetes ... a fact he knew and helped cover-up even while he was being toasted by Hillary Clinton and Hollywood's A-list).

The only things that are part of the popular narrative in U.S. are things placed on the agenda by issues management firms paid by competing Wall Street interests. If you suddenly want to dismiss any opinion reinforced by a corporate front group, the rabbit hole is going to take you a whole lot deeper than the NRA. Every position you've ever supported here in the Club, no matter how righteous it seems to you, is suddenly untenable.

The Democrats have their base convinced that everyone except them is being fooled by special interests, and they are part of some aristocracy of intellect. The Republicans have their base convinced that everyone except them is trying to introduce a regime of elites. Both are carefully crafted appeals to prey on the human individual's constant, instinctual, fear of rape ingrained in their psyche from 10,000 years living as feudal serfs.

Did you know, some docs suspect that the Sandy Hook maniac was suffering from Lyme Disease complications? Apparently Lyme disease can attack the nervous system in such a manner to cause "Lyme Rage" - at least four death row inmates are diagnosed as having committed their acts under Lyme Rage.

So, I guess I'd also support a measure that puts those known to suffer Lyme Disease on the 'no buy guns' roster.

Robert C. Bransfield, MD wrote:What can we do now to prevent a possible future epidemic of violence? Suggestions include high index suspicion for Lyme disease in rageful people, adequate testing for Lyme disease in those who are enraged, adequate treatment of LD, continued LD advocacy efforts, research into the link between aggression and LD, evaluation of violent offenders who demonstrate some of the aggressive patterns seen with LD prior to their release into the community, and vaccinations. When regional epidemics of violence occur, LD and other causes of encephalopathy should be considered. We should exercise every option to prevent crime with medical treatment.

Juan_Bottom wrote:It's not even the NRA, per say, they're some kind of shell for the Gun Manufacturers. The NRA has only 4 million members, but American gun manufacturers donate millions of dollars to the NRA every year to keep it highly influential.

a silly and dreary, cookie-cutter bogeyman argument

Kidney Care Partners - the advocacy group for people with renal failure - is funded by AMGEN which gets rich off manufacturing SENSIPAR, a drug given to kidney patients. IIRC, Duramed, makers of the Plan B pill, funds NARAL. The head of Autism Speaks (celebrated group that organized the Michael Savage boycott in '07) is the former Marketing Manager for the division of J&J that sells anti-autism drug Risperdal (known - as of 2 months ago - as the drug that gives people who take it diabetes ... a fact he knew and helped cover-up even while he was being toasted by Hillary Clinton and Hollywood's A-list).

The only things that are part of the popular narrative in U.S. are things placed on the agenda by issues management firms paid by competing Wall Street interests. If you suddenly want to dismiss any opinion reinforced by a corporate front group, the rabbit hole is going to take you a whole lot deeper than the NRA. Every position you've ever supported here in the Club, no matter how righteous it seems to you, is suddenly untenable.

The Democrats have their base convinced that everyone except them is being fooled by special interests, and they are part of some aristocracy of intellect. The Republicans have their base convinced that everyone except them is trying to introduce a regime of elites. Both are carefully crafted appeals to prey on the human individual's constant, instinctual, fear of rape ingrained in their psyche from 10,000 years living as feudal serfs.

So when AT&T gives money to the Obama campaign, Obama is an evil puppet for the corporations, but when corporations do that with gun clubs that is just normal business.

10-4

Neoteny wrote:Free... wicked?

Gulp. Sometimes you gotta wonder if the banned are the only ones who truly are free.