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THey never discuss it, but I remember from Jay's first interview (I think) that he mentions the "Silver Spring" call while he is with Adnan in the car.

Are you referring to the police interview they played on the podcast, or something you read on reddit (or somewhere else). That seems like a pretty significant detail and might change my opinion about his innocence. I'll go back and listen if it was in one of the episodes.

Podcast Central

I listened to all 12 episodes of Serial on my drive up and back to Utah.

I'm in Cardiac's camp: Adnan did it, but there's not enough evidence to convict.

While it's difficult to understand why his attorney didn't have the girl in the library testify at either trial, it's unbelievable that his attorney didn't do more to combat the cell phone timeline at trial. As I understand it, that was the key demonstrative used by the prosecution at trial. They put up a blow up of the call log with adjacent blanks and then filled the blanks in with the testimony of Jay. But as discussed, ad nauseum, the cell tower pings don't match up with Jay's testimony until about 6 pm. That is a huge sword with which to lay waste to the prosecution's demonstrative (and entire theory of the case). As a trial attorney, I always make damn sure any demonstrative I use is rock solid, because the other side has every right to use my demonstrative. I can't understand why defense counsel wasn't shredding that demonstrative to bits with the cell tower info.

That said, I felt the podcast was a bit disappointing as a whole. Koenig was quick to dismiss things she found unimportant or unhelpful and quick to embrace things she liked. She spent at least half an episode debunking the Best Buy location by "proving" the absence of any pay phone, only to later admit that the building plans show a pay phone in the Best Buy vestibule. Her conclusion is that "maybe there was a pay phone there." Maybe? Really? And why wasn't that noticed on the plans the first time they viewed them? Confirmation bias?

Notably, Koenig does not then go back and admit that the Best Buy parking lot could not be ruled out as a place where the murder happened and is possibly a strength and not a weakness of Jay's testimony. There were a handful of similar issues throughout the podcast, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

There were a handful of similar issues throughout the podcast, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

how about assuming that driving to best buy from the school in 2014 was in any way illustrative of what making the same drive was like in 1999? and i love that the obvious, easiest answer that adnan is in fact a sociopath is dismissed by a random law professor who says she herself has never seen a sociopath in the wild, so koenig couldn't have been lucky enough to get one on her first try. that's dumb.

Podcast Central

Originally Posted by old_gregg

how about assuming that driving to best buy from the school in 2014 was in any way illustrative of what making the same drive was like in 1999?

Yep, that was another one. So many variables in that equation, but they do it on their first try 15 years later, so it must be possible, right? The whole thing turns on a couple minutes, but during the entire reenactment I kept thinking "they have absolutely no idea how long Hae talked to the concession stand lady, so what good does this even do?"

I thought this mashup critique was kinda funny:

Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

I'm only 3 or 4 episodes in so maybe she hits this later, but my biggest question right now is why Adnan never tried to contact Hae after the police called him looking for her. It seems like he and Hae were still in pretty close contact up to that point, at least close enough that he would send a "where are you? The cops are looking for you" message.

My running theory: Adnan hired Jay to do it and then backed out of whatever payment he had promised him.

At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

That said, I felt the podcast was a bit disappointing as a whole. Koenig was quick to dismiss things she found unimportant or unhelpful and quick to embrace things she liked. She spent at least half an episode debunking the Best Buy location by "proving" the absence of any pay phone, only to later admit that the building plans show a pay phone in the Best Buy vestibule. Her conclusion is that "maybe there was a pay phone there." Maybe? Really? And why wasn't that noticed on the plans the first time they viewed them? Confirmation bias?

Notably, Koenig does not then go back and admit that the Best Buy parking lot could not be ruled out as a place where the murder happened and is possibly a strength and not a weakness of Jay's testimony. There were a handful of similar issues throughout the podcast, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

I thought she didn't find the architectural plans for best buy until the end of the podcast, no? From what I recall, she didn't have them when she first talked about the pay phone problem, but she was able to find them later.

I thought she didn't find the architectural plans for best buy until the end of the podcast, no? From what I recall, she didn't have them when she first talked about the pay phone problem, but she was able to find them later.

So she spent a year researching the case before they started recording the podcast, but she didn't find the building plans until 11 weeks into the podcast? That seems convenient. Building plans are all kept on file with the city/county. Wouldn't that be the first place you'd look to see if there was ever a pay phone? Why wasn't that somewhere they looked when they spent hours and hours looking online for evidence of a pay phone? Even if she didn't come across them until later, that causes me to question the thoroughness of their research. Also, I suppose part of the problem with serial storytelling/journalism is that the writer gets to pick and choose the order in which she shares the information. The listener, therefore, doesn't know if the information is being intentionally withheld or if it really wasn't available previously.

Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

I thought she didn't find the architectural plans for best buy until the end of the podcast, no? From what I recall, she didn't have them when she first talked about the pay phone problem, but she was able to find them later.

the payphone thing illustrates the entire problem with the story. people do not accurately remember the small details on which this case turns, and the stuff we do know is not probative. i am interested to see what happens with the post conviction motion though.

So she spent a year researching the case before they started recording the podcast, but she didn't find the building plans until 11 weeks into the podcast? That seems convenient. Building plans are all kept on file with the city/county. Wouldn't that be the first place you'd look to see if there was ever a pay phone? Why wasn't that somewhere they looked when they spent hours and hours looking online for evidence of a pay phone? Even if she didn't come across them until later, that causes me to question the thoroughness of their research. Also, I suppose part of the problem with serial storytelling/journalism is that the writer gets to pick and choose the order in which she shares the information. The listener, therefore, doesn't know if the information is being intentionally withheld or if it really wasn't available previously.

I'm not arguing for the thoroughness of her research. The podcast is, after all, entertainment. She doesn't have the resources or the aim to prove new ground that would get Adnan out of jail. So I'm not going to criticize her too much for telling a good story.

That said (and again this is me remembering from weeks ago), I thought she had try to get both the telephone company and best buy plans before, but those weren't available. Then later she was able to get the architectural plans. I didn't see it as withholding information to tell a good story. It's certainly possible that she isn't telling the story straight, but I hope not. I mean, listen to her voice! She wouldn't do that to me!

Here's a question from someone who knows nothing about obtaining warrants for cell phone records (me!):

If I recall correctly, the prosecutor could track all of Adnan's outgoing calls (thus, they knew about the Neisha call, etc). But for incoming calls they only had time information (the Best Buy call is a short call, but without identifying information). So was there really no way to correlate the incoming calls with a phone number/caller? Is that still the case?

Here's a question from someone who knows nothing about obtaining warrants for cell phone records (me!):

If I recall correctly, the prosecutor could track all of Adnan's outgoing calls (thus, they knew about the Neisha call, etc). But for incoming calls they only had time information (the Best Buy call is a short call, but without identifying information). So was there really no way to correlate the incoming calls with a phone number/caller? Is that still the case?

Unless you get the records for the phone from which the incoming call was placed. Why didn't his attorney and/or the prosecution subpoena the phone company for the pay phone records, and also subpoena the records from all of the other phones involved that day (Jen's home phone, any other number called by Adnan's phone that day, the officer's phones, etc.)? Maybe they did, but it sure seemed like there was a lot of "was this 4:15 call the one from the officer or was it the 4:22 call?" going on.

Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

Unless you get the records for the phone from which the incoming call was placed. Why didn't his attorney and/or the prosecution subpoena the phone company for the pay phone records, and also subpoena the records from all of the other phones involved that day (Jen's home phone, any other number called by Adnan's phone that day, the officer's phones, etc.)? Maybe they did, but it sure seemed like there was a lot of "was this 4:15 call the one from the officer or was it the 4:22 call?" going on.

Right, that was my question. Why not get the information from all of the relevant phones you can find? It seemed like the prosecution's entire incoming call record consisted of "this is probably when Adnan called from Best Buy."

I'm only 3 or 4 episodes in so maybe she hits this later, but my biggest question right now is why Adnan never tried to contact Hae after the police called him looking for her. It seems like he and Hae were still in pretty close contact up to that point, at least close enough that he would send a "where are you? The cops are looking for you" message.

My running theory: Adnan hired Jay to do it and then backed out of whatever payment he had promised him.

I don't put a lot of weight on that. She didn't have a cell phone, and he had only had his for a day. They had to sneak behind their parents' backs to talk to each other. I'm not sure that paging her would have done much good. If she was alive and wanted to talk, she would have called him. Communication in 1999 was much different than it is today where everyone is connected to a cell phone 24/7.

Well damn. Now my pendulum is swinging to the 'believe Jay' side. Before I still thought Adnan was guilty, but Jay was more involved than what he was claiming.

With so many details I can't remember which are inconsistent with his police testimony. But I'm inclined to believe his story, that he was trying to deflect as much attention as possible.

The first thing that I notice about his testimony is that he tries really hard to portray himself as altruistic. Oh, I told the cops this because of my g-ma and I did that to protect my friends. Uh, dude if you cared about your G-ma that much, you probably wouldn't sling dope out of her house.

The first thing that I notice about his testimony is that he tries really hard to portray himself as altruistic. Oh, I told the cops this because of my g-ma and I did that to protect my friends. Uh, dude if you cared about your G-ma that much, you probably wouldn't sling dope out of her house.

He was a black teenager from Baltimore. Didn't you watch the Wire?

Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

"The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

No, I didn't watch the Wire. I guess that is why I don't understand why being a black teenager from Baltimore would make it more likely that his altruism is real.

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but I guess my point is that I don't think its inconsistent for a teenager (whatever the race) to act stupidly (i.e. sell weed from his grandma's house) yet still not want his grandma to get in trouble.

Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

"The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but I guess my point is that I don't think its inconsistent for a teenager (whatever the race) to act stupidly (i.e. sell weed from his grandma's house) yet still not want his grandma to get in trouble.

Perhaps you are right, but I guess I would be much more inclined to believe him if he just said that he was scared of the consequences to his own person. When you are slinging dope out of your g-ma's house, it just doesn't resonate with me that you are all that concerned with her well being. I would be concerned more with the type of people coming around to buy the stuff than I would be about getting her in trouble for something she didn't know was happening.

The first 6-7 episodes were really fun and interesting, if we didn't have 6-7 more hours of driving ahead of us we wouldn't have finished. I feel like Adnan and Jay were involved together, I wknder why none of the cops involved would speak with her for the podcast? From Jay's interview I would guess the cops and others didn't talk because her reporting was clearly bent towards proving innocence.

I'll check out season 2, but I don't think this will become a long term success without some drastically better journalism. She kept holding up her newspaper reporter credentials as her bonafides during the podcast and I kept thinking how it is shocking that newspapers are almost all bankrupt.

Adnan remembers the morning, type of gift he gives a girl, mall trip with Jay, but doesn't remember anything else during the day except a phone call from a cop about his missing ex. Yeah, ok.

I think Adnan killed her, coerced Jay into helping bury the body. I can't see a scenario where Jay killed her simply because I can't see Jay running into Hae after school and pre 4:00 and somehow getting into her car.

Adnan remembers the morning, type of gift he gives a girl, mall trip with Jay, but doesn't remember anything else during the day except a phone call from a cop about his missing ex. Yeah, ok.

I think Adnan killed her, coerced Jay into helping bury the body. I can't see a scenario where Jay killed her simply because I can't see Jay running into Hae after school and pre 4:00 and somehow getting into her car.

What makes this case interesting is that there are some real compelling arguments that he is innocent. At the same time, a lot of the discrepancies could simply be everyday randomness and the messiness of your average human memory. In the end, while it is shocking to think that Adnan could do such a thing, it is almost more shocking to imagine that Jay did it and concocted the entire story.

"There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

What makes this case interesting is that there are some real compelling arguments that he is innocent. At the same time, a lot of the discrepancies could simply be everyday randomness and the messiness of your average human memory. In the end, while it is shocking to think that Adnan could do such a thing, it is almost more shocking to imagine that Jay did it and concocted the entire story.

I never saw the compelling evidence he was innocent.

No alibi, check.
No legitimate witness providing him am alibi, check.
Fingerprints at crime scene, check.
Adnan admittance that he was with his cell when it pinged a tower close to burial site, check.

My wife thought he was less involved and Jay more involved in the murder. That never rang true to me simply because nobody could place, nor any real reasonable explanation places, Jay with Hae that afternoon.

No alibi, check.
No legitimate witness providing him am alibi, check.
Fingerprints at crime scene, check.
Adnan admittance that he was with his cell when it pinged a tower close to burial site, check.

My wife thought he was less involved and Jay more involved in the murder. That never rang true to me simply because nobody could place, nor any real reasonable explanation places, Jay with Hae that afternoon.

I thought it was extremely entertaining.

I thought there several things brought up that were quite damaging to the police's timeline. But it could simply mean that they had some errors in the timeline but Adnan still did it.

"There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

So just because this was bumped, and I'm bored, I'll chime in again...
I read all the parts of jays interview and while I guess I can see his reasons for the shifting stories, he still doesn't come across as particularly believable--or sympathetic. I feel bad for the guy in the sense that he likely didn't kill anyone and he'd probably rather this case not have been reopened. However, he did help bury a dead body and lied repeatedly to police, so forgive me if my sympathy doesn't run terribly deep for his lost construction job. Oh yeah, and there is a guy in jail for the rest of his life who may be innocent. If Sarah really wanted to "demonize" him, she might have honed in a little more on his drug dealing history or his domestic violence charge. C'mon, Jay....

In the end, I just don't think Adnan talks like someone who is guilty of murder, although I don't think he's wholly innocent either. My latest theory...maybe someone from his family or mosque? Maybe someone couldn't handle the idea of this western girl "corrupting" him and then disrespecting him by moving on so quickly.

In any case, as many have already stated, guilty or not, the case sure doesn't seem to merit a conviction.

At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10