What do you expect from a muslim? He was raised as a muslim, and part of their core beliefs is to despise non-muslims if they do not give themselves to Allah. I know, he's stated that he is a Christian,but read the below text from the Koran and you'll see how by him saying he's a Christian, he has become a "traitor" in the minds of muslims. Here's an exerpt from citizensoldier.com;

[QUOTE]Here's the logic of Koran:

1. Unbelievers are those who do not accept Islam, especially Jews and Christians:

To those who have received the Scriptures [Jews & Christians] and to the Gentiles say: 'Will you surrender yourselves to Allah?' If they become Muslims they shall be rightly guided; if they pay no heed, then your only duty is to warn them. God is watching all His servants.
Sura 3:20

2. Because unbelievers do not accept Islam, Allah hates them and does not guide them:

Say: 'Obey Allah and the Apostle.' If they pay no heed, then, surely, God does not love the unbelievers."
Sura 3:32

You have a good example in Abraham and those who followed him. They said to their people: 'We disown you and the idols which you worship besides Allah. We renounce you: enmity and hate shall reign between us until you believe in Allah only."
Sura 60:4

Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.
Sura 5:51

You see many among them vie with one another in sin and wickedness and practise what is unlawful. Evil is what they do.

Why do their rabbis and divines not forbid them to blaspheme or to practise what is unlawful? Evil indeed are their doings.

Sura 5:62-63

4. Muslims will see the sins of unbelievers plainly, both in non-Muslim society and in dealings with non-Muslims:

They listen to falsehoods and practise what is unlawful. If they come to you [Muhammad], give them your judgment or avoid them. If you avoid them, they can in no way harm you; but if you do act as their judge, judge them with fairness. Allah loves those that deal justly.

But how will they come to you for judgment when they already have the Torah which enshrines God's own judgment? Soon after they will turn their backs: they are no true believers.

Sura 5:42-43

5. Therefore, Muslims must fight unbelievers both to limit sin and give unbelievers a chance to go to heaven by becoming Muslims. (Only Muslims can go to heaven, but Muslims are not assured of going to heaven unless they die in Jihad. Muslims who do not fight Jihad will have their good deeds weighed against their bad deeds. Refusing to fight Jihad is a very bad deed.)

Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them. For you must know that Allah is forgiving and merciful.
5:33-34

Let not the unbelievers think that We (Allah) prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them.
Sura 3:178

Those that fled their homes or were expelled from them, and those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a recompense from Allah; Allah dispenses the richest recompense.
3:195

6. Now here's the rub - the Koran does share many of the moral rules of the Bible. Although the Koran says moral rules like don't kill and don't steal only apply between Muslims - Muslims can kill non-Muslims, take the property of non-Muslims as tribute (called Jizya, this was the cause of the Barbary Pirate War in the early 19th century), take their wives, or make non-Muslims slaves - there are enough similarities that the modern, post-Christian West looks as evil to Muslims as Koran tells them it will look.

For example:

7. Koran and the Bible say God forms babies in their mothers' wombs, but the U.S. has legalized abortion.

It is he who shapes your bodies in your mothers' wombs as He pleases. There is no god but Him, the Mighty, the Wise One.

Sura 3:6

8. Koran and the Bible teach that God is the Creator, but the West embraces evolution.

Such is God, your Lord. There is no god but Him, the Creator of all things. Therefore serve Him. Of all things He is the Guardian.

Sura 6:102

9. Koran and the Bible both teach chastity, but we in the West practice free love, and display this to the world in our movies and TV programs.

Let those who cannot afford to marry live in continence until God shall enrich them from His own bounty. As for those of your slaves who wish to buy their liberty, free them if you find in them any promise and bestow on them a part of the riches which God has given you. You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you may enrich yourselves, if they wish to preserve their chastity. If anyone compels them, God will be forgiving and merciful to them."

Sura 24:033

10. Koran and the Bible both forbid homosexuality, but we in the West are legitimizing this and many other perversions, and again it shows up in our media.

And Lot, who said to his people: 'Will you persist in these lewd acts which no other nation has committed before you? You lust after men instead of women. Truly, you are a degenerate people.'

Sura 7:80-81

11. Koran is full of contradictions. One of the strangest is Koran says it confirms the Bible, and tells Muslims to read Torah and the Gospels. Koran tells Muslims that Jews and Christians - the People of the Book - don't keep their own scriptures and don't teach them to others.

When God made a covenant with those to whom the Scriptures were given He said: 'Proclaim these to mankind and do not suppress them.' But they cast the Scriptures over their backs and sold them for a paltry price. Evil was their bargain.
Sura 3:187

He (Allah) has revealed to you the Book with the Truth (Koran) confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction between right and wrong. Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge.
Sura 3:3-4

12. Koran and the Bible also condemn gambling, drunkenness, and the occult (horoscopes, witches, etc.) but in the U.S., our own state governments now run numbers, we are legalizing drugs, and there is an explosion of interest in the occult, including pagan religions like wicca.

Believers, wine and games of chance, idols and divining arrows, are abominations devised by Satan. Avoid them, so that you may prosper.

Sura 5:90

13. CS readers know that God's moral rules like don't steal and don't lie are essential to free markets and prosperity. While Islam says Muslims should not lie or steal from each other, corruption is rampant in Muslim countries, because they don't have the Holy Spirit to help them keep the Commandments. The Koran perversely tells Muslims that the riches of Christians and Jews come from our sinfulness while the poverty of Muslims is a test from Allah to see who loves prosperity more than Islam,

You shall be sorely tried in the matter of your possessions and your persons, and will hear much that is hurtful from those who were given the Scriptures before you, and from the pagans. But if you endure with fortitude and guard yourselves against evil, you will surely triumph.
Sura 3:186

Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is grief. Hell shall be their home, an evil resting place.
Sura 3:196-197

14. Last, Koran adds a rule that can't be found in the Bible. Where the Bible says that there are neither male nor female in Christ, and that God is no respecter of persons, Koran tells Muslims that men are superior to women. The West's Feminist movement thus looks evil and sinful to Muslims.

Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain the. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they disobey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.
Sura 4:34

The bottom line is that Muslims hate the West because the Koran tells Muslims that the West rejects Islam, and consequently is evil.

The Koran is confirmed to be true in the minds of Muslims by our own desire to throw out God's rules.[QUOTE]

thefifthspeed

01-31-2008, 5:58 AM

What do you expect from a muslim? He was raised as a muslim, and part of their core beliefs is to despise non-muslims if they do not give themselves to Allah.

And you also know that muslims core belief is that every human being is a muslim.

bwiese

01-31-2008, 6:21 AM

I have no worries that a prospective President Obama would have any guidance/coordination from Islamic sources, etc. Nonissue.

I would worry about his conduct in a fight against Muslims far more because he's a Democrat, than due to the fact he had a Muslim father (the latter who sounds like he apparently conducted his life in less-than-full Islamic piety).

Aside from being 180 degrees outta phase w/his politics, I think he's probably a personally pretty nice individual. His campaign against Hilldog has generally taken a higher road (compared to other side's snippiness and having to bring out veiled comments from Bill Clinton himself).

I'd take Obama for a neighbor over the Hilldog or Edwards any day. I just get the feeling he wouldn't call the HOA if I painted my garage door the wrong shade, while the other two would go nuts.

SemiAutoSam

01-31-2008, 7:23 AM

I equate having Obama as a president to having a person of Japanese lineage as president in 1942-1947 time frame.

IE as I see it If his father is Muslim there is a good chance he is Muslim even if he hides it or its somewhat dormant in the back of his mind.

The way I see it as well he has two strikes against him already #1 the possibility of his having muslim beliefs and his being partly black.

I'm of the opinion that it would be a miracle if he gets elected.

I wouldnt vote for Obama or Hillary and To me this means that the best person to get into office is what ever Republican is Nominated.

troyus

01-31-2008, 7:57 AM

This reasoning is just pure FUD. The parents of my father were Muslim and he came from a Muslim country. He hates Muslims and the Muslim religion so much it is to the point of being irrational. He dislikes them more than probably anybody on this board.

Anyway this entire thread is a political hit post. And religious. The Koran has just as many unusual religious rules as Hindu, Hebrew, and Christian religious documents. FUD FUD FUD.

And I'm no Obama supporter, btw. But this is very narrow minded thinking...

And I am re-reading this little overview of the Koran it is disgusting. All this crap about muslims taking slaves, muslims killing non muslims, muslim religion doesn't have a 'Holy Spirit' so it's not a holy.... Holy **** are you serious. ow do you explain our civil war here.... where non muslims took slaves. As for muslims conquering non muslims... Last I checked the US invaded Iraq, Europe invaded the middle east and split it into pieces a century ago after defeating the Ottoman empire, and centuries before then waged a religious war upon it called the crusades. By the same token, Muslims nearly conquered all of Europe in 732 AD via France but lost at the battle of Tours. Brush up on your history, and reel in your religious programming.

bwiese

01-31-2008, 7:59 AM

There are enough legitimate reasons to dislike Obama that we don't need to even concern ourselves about matters of his lineage - why go back to his ancestors when the individual in question is directly unsuitable?

SemiAutoSam

01-31-2008, 8:05 AM

If nothing else to show those that would vote for him that there are many reasons not to vote for him not just one or two.

And I should have been a bit more clear I meant just his parentage not go back to his GGGG Grandfather.

Even having the son of a muslim in the white house no matter if he actually leans that way is way to scary to me and not worth the chance.

There are enough legitimate reasons to dislike Obama that we don't need to even concern ourselves about matters of his lineage - why go back to his ancestors when the individual in question is directly unsuitable?

DedEye

01-31-2008, 8:13 AM

This reasoning is just pure FUD. The parents of my father were Muslim and he came from a Muslim country. He hates Muslims and the Muslim religion so much it is to the point of being irrational. He dislikes them more than probably anybody on this board.

Anyway this entire thread is a political hit post. And religious. The Koran has just as many unusual religious rules as Hindu, Hebrew, and Christian religious documents. FUD FUD FUD.

And I'm no Obama supporter, btw. But this is very narrow minded thinking...

And I am re-reading this little overview of the Koran it is disgusting. All this crap about muslims taking slaves, muslims king non muslims, muslim religion doesn't have a 'Holy Spirit' so it's not a holy.... Holy **** are you serious. Last I checked the US invaded Iraq, Europe invaded the middle east and split it into pieces a century ago after defeating the Ottoman empire, and centuries before then waged a religious war upon it called the crusades. By the same token, Muslims almost invaded all of Europe in 732 AD via France but lost at the battle of Tours. Brush up on your history, and reel in your religious programming.

:iagree: So very true.

I may vote for McCain (or Ron Paul :rolleyes: ;)) over Obama, but in the primary he's definitely getting my vote over Hilldog.

bountyhunter

01-31-2008, 8:17 AM

And you also know that muslims core belief is that every human being is a muslim.
Then I wonder why so many of them are busy happily killing all the ones who are NOT?

bountyhunter

01-31-2008, 8:19 AM

If nothing else to show those that would vote for him that there are many reasons not to vote for him not just one or two. But there are a couple of huge reasons why people will be voting for him:

I do not support Obama for president, I don't support him for dog catcher, but put your prejudices away for awhile. His parents divorced when he was two and he saw his Muslim father once when he was 11.

Read:http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

InvictusManeo

01-31-2008, 8:46 AM

I agree that it's terrifying that we may (god help us) have a president that refuses to salute our flag or pledge allegiance. If someone is unhappy with the way the country is being run, that's a fine non-violent way to show disgust, but it has no place in a nation's so-called "leaders".

Quite frankly, I could care less whether he is a muslim or not. Yes, the Koran has all these bloodthirsty passages, but it has just as many ideas of peace and tolerance. As for the modern muslims killing off non-muslims, they are largely illiterate and basing their faith on what corrupt officials have TOLD them the Koran says. Otherwise suicide bombings would be nonexistent in their tactics, as suicide is one of the few things in the faith that the book is not at all ambiguous on: if you kill yourself for ANY reason, go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect 200 virgins.

Even so, for purely political reasons, I would write in Steven Colbert before voting for Obama.

JohnJW

01-31-2008, 9:54 AM

I equate having Obama as a president to having a person of Japanese lineage as president in 1942-1947 time frame.

IE as I see it If his father is Muslim there is a good chance he is Muslim even if he hides it or its somewhat dormant in the back of his mind.

What??? Look up the 442nd Regiment during WWII. While their parents are imprisoned in concentration camps back in western US, these people of "Japanese lineage" fought gallantly as Americans for Americans.

Luckily for you we don't judge your parents base on your statements.

Fjold

01-31-2008, 9:58 AM

What??? Look up the 442nd Regiment during WWII. While their parents are imprisoned in concentration camps back in western US, these people of "Japanese lineage" fought gallantly as Americans for Americans.

Luckily for you we don't judge your parents base on your statements.

Them Japanese couldn't be trusted during WWII!

The 442nd Regimental Combat Team of the United States Army, fought in Europe during the Second World War. The families of many of its soldiers were subject to internment. The 442nd was a self-sufficient fighting force, and fought with uncommon distinction in Italy, southern France, and Germany.

The unit became the most highly decorated military unit in the history of the United States Armed Forces, including 21 Medal of Honor recipients.

I didn't hear anyone having any objection to a person of mixed heritage such as a second, third or fourth generation German American or Italian American being in political office during WWII.

Is it only because you can see a difference?

DVSmith

01-31-2008, 10:05 AM

But there are a couple of huge reasons why people will be voting for him:

1) He ain't Hillary

2) He ain't McCain

3) He ain't Republican

EZ G

01-31-2008, 10:20 AM

IMO The main reason to be concerned about his lineage is that ALL MUSLIMS will view him as an APOSTATE. His father was a Muslim and as such he is considered by the Tenets of Islam to be a Muslim. One who has subsequently converted to Christianity and rejected Islam.

THEY run riot over teddy bears and cartoons. What do you think will happen if an Apostate is the leader of the Great Satan?

P.S. TROYUS no disrespect but you have seriously juxtaposed your history. The Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression and conquest. Moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam is historically fraudulent. Since it's inception, Islam has been at war with everyone else. The only reason this has become noticable to us now is that oil/world energy needs has enabled THEM to re-appear out of the "dark ages hole" their religion kept them in all this time.

bulgron

01-31-2008, 10:37 AM

It's a little disappointing to see a political hit piece like this on CalGuns. Usually the information bandied about around here is a little more grounded in reality.

For those who care, here's an article (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/obama_nabbed_by_the_patriotic.html) from the Washington Post that talks about Obama's failure to salute the flag. Among other things, it points out that all the candidates were technically in violation of the law since they all stood with their back to the flag. :D

What's more, the law in question requires civilians to salute the flag "during patriotic observations." The article then wonders if a steak fry qualifies as a patriotic observation. I have to wonder the same thing myself.

The article then goes on to provide two pictures of Obama saluting the flag. So this talk that Obama "refuses to salute the flag" is just so much hooey. Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Take away what you want from that, but if you're basing your decision on who to support for President based on a superficial thing like that, you really aren't paying attention to the many very real and very serious issues facing this nation today.

As for Obama not being presidential material because he's black (!) or because evil, dangerous, muslim ideas might be lurking deep in his mind (!), that's just plain old racist tinfoil-hat territory, and I can't believe that sort of thing has any room on a website like this which deals with serious issues of the law and the constitution. At best, tolerating that kind of thinking paints us all as lunatics. At worse, it strengthens the stereotype of the American gun owner as a fat, rich, white guy with a Klansman's robe in his closet.

BTW, lest someone mistake me for an Obama supporter, I want to say that I am NOT. In fact, I don't support any of the presidential front-runners. My intention is to vote for Ron Paul in the primaries, and after that I'll decide what to do about the general election. I don't like any of the front runners, Democrat or Republican, since I think they would all be an unmitigated disaster for this country.

This is not a happy election year. Let's, please, try not to make it worse by digging down through the mud into the toxic sludge that lies underneath. A little decorum people, please.

Rob P.

01-31-2008, 10:38 AM

IBTL

:popcorn:

bulgron

01-31-2008, 10:40 AM

IMO The main reason to be concerned about his lineage is that ALL MUSLIMS will view him as an APOSTATE. His father was a Muslim and as such he is considered by the Tenets of Islam to be a Muslim. One who has subsequently converted to Christianity and rejected Islam.

Yeah, because it's possible for fundamentalist militant Islam to hate us more. :rolleyes:

Again, this is a non-issue.

They hate us. We get that. Who we have for President isn't going to change things one little bit.

troyus

01-31-2008, 11:00 AM

IMO The main reason to be concerned about his lineage is that ALL MUSLIMS will view him as an APOSTATE. His father was a Muslim and as such he is considered by the Tenets of Islam to be a Muslim. One who has subsequently converted to Christianity and rejected Islam.

THEY run riot over teddy bears and cartoons. What do you think will happen if an Apostate is the leader of the Great Satan?

P.S. TROYUS no disrespect but you have seriously juxtaposed your history. The Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression and conquest. Moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam is historically fraudulent. Since it's inception, Islam has been at war with everyone else. The only reason this has become noticable to us now is that oil/world energy needs has enabled THEM to re-appear out of the "dark ages hole" their religion kept them in all this time.

"The First Crusade was launched in 1095 by Pope Urban II with the dual goals of liberating the sacred city of Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslims and freeing the Eastern Christians from Muslim rule. What started as an appeal by Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos for western mercenaries to fight the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia quickly turned into a wholesale Western migration and conquest of territory outside of Europe. Both knights and peasants from many nations of Western Europe travelled over land and by sea towards Jerusalem and captured the city in July 1099, establishing the Kingdom of Jerusalem and other Crusader states. Although these gains lasted for less than two hundred years, the First Crusade was a major turning point in the expansion of Western power, as well as the first major step towards reopening international trade in the West since the fall of the Western Roman Empire."

All this talk about the evil scary muslims sounds EXACTLY like the kind of stuff I heard in the 80's about the soviets. I remember growing up and hearing Reagan talking about nuking the evil empire... remember thinking back then... this is crazy. Different song, same dance.

I think some people here spend more time in church than in history books. How do you folks explain the PEACEFUL co-existence of muslims and christians in SPAIN for hundreds of years.