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@Zero, jeeezzz, that was well researched and well written. The exact thing I didnt feel like doing. I'm with you, give me Obito's abilities over everyone elses. Time_Space ninjutsu in both eyes! Plus I'd have my own personal dimension, it doesnt get better than that.

Hey, guys, i never got a fulfilling answer to my previous question and the last couple posts here about sharingan BEG me ask it again.

Anyway, infinite tsukiyomi / tsukino me/ moon's eye plan. Tsukiyomi is one word that has three functions or meaning in the context of moons eye plan.

1. It means the goddess
2. It means the moon physically
3. It means also the mangekyo genjutsu.

Ok, first 2 meanings, ya, i get those but also the plan was said to cast the actual mangekyo ability tsukiyomi using the juubi's power to reveal it from the physical moon. My question is what does it mean if neither madara nor tobi can use the tsukiyomi technique?

Itachi is only known character to possess it and its strongly hinted sasuke can use it as well since he can also use amaterasu which itachi had as well.

The other sharingan genjutsu techniques we have seen, even mangekyo level ones like shisui's, are NOT tsukiyomi and each contained subtle differences and effects.

So, what does it mean if neither madara nor tobi possess nor have ability to CAST TSUKIYOMI?! It was a vital and necessary component in the plan seemingly for decades prior to itachi and sasuke yet only itachi so far can use it.

My answer is that there is an issue of foreknowledge at play here since only itachi and sasuke were the uchiha to survive after massacre and conveniently they have the tsukiyomi ability and conveniently tobi needs sasuke to synchronize with the tool which acts as part of the foundation for initiating the grand technique. Conveniently everything just happens to tie up and come together when sasuke obtains ems that should allow for inexhaustible mangekyo with no penalty of blindness.

Remember that tobi explained specifically that SHARINGAN would be used. Madara has rinnegan and im not certain that rinnegan just slips back in stages from rinnegan to ems to Ms to 3 tomoe sharingan when he's turning in for the night.

Tldr: it looks like neither madara nor tobi have the tsukiyomi genjutsu but it is specifically required for the moons eye plan to work and that plan was begun no later than when madara was actually still alive. What gives?

Edit ffs: yes, IM quite certain there is prophecy concerning another child of destiny, sasuke. The sage himself prophesied one to show the bijuu true power, the toads (seemingly tied to the lineage of younger brother loosely) had prophecy of naruto. The mere fact that the sage split the bloodline and we have a prophecy concerning one half then there should be another yet complimentary prophecy told within the older brothers line and its affiliates.

Evidence of foreknowledge and sasuke's half of the prophecy? Ok, the moons eye plan had been deteloped some time ago and was tobi's true aim all along. So if it was his intention to carry out such a plan for sooo long then why did he and akatsuki not begin capturing tailed beasts until after akatsuki had already rooted itself in the world for its fake,putting up a front reasons. Moons eye plan needs all the tailed beasts to revive the 10 tails AND MUST BE SEALED IN ORDER FROM 1 TO 9! Yet they did not begin capturing the first tailed beast UNTIL SASUKE WAS MATURE AND MANGEKYO AGE!! A plan enacted decades prior yet only really begins when sasuke is nearing readiness with his power. Its not a coincidence, and tobi went after the 9 tails before the other bijuu during naruto's birth f
I think mainly to destroy monogamy but also use its power to subjugate the other beasts but even so, moons eye plan had been around long before that even. Its also doubtful tobi was ignorant of the seal on naruto's belly being periodically and dangerously week, if he can know kakashi's morning grave visitation habits then sure as hell knows he could pluck kuybi, whom he has his eyes on, from a weak and deteriorating seal anytime he wants. What kept him was knowing that it was too soon at that point until sasuke grew and matured his destined power. Tobi always speaks of the 6 paths brothers, madara and hashirama, sasuke and naruto, as clear holes threaded through with powerful and crucial destiny.

I guess what seals the deal is that nagato had rinnegan for so long, could use rinnetensei when he wanted yet he sat for ages never reviving madara! Was it clear that reviving madara required the 10 tails to be revived first? U don't see how it could possibly require access to such insane godly power no matter how far in the past he died. Once again we have them waiting to revive madara during the time sasuke is finally mature even if edo tensei did it instead and did it only slightly sooner than expected.

Tobirama was credited with creating the edo tensei, or at least his reputation among other shinobi at that time was in part by use of the technique even if not it's author (like kakashi's reputation of sharingan without born uchiha).

How do you think orochimaru came to learn it? The third knew of the technique, seemingly, but not how to use it?

Also, how was naruto able to obtain the forbidden scroll of hashirama so easily? You think hashirama had a condition aligned with the toad prophecy and the so6p "someone will show you true power" which acted like Excalibur and the stone?

Hey, guys, i never got a fulfilling answer to my previous question and the last couple posts here about sharingan BEG me ask it again.

Anyway, infinite tsukiyomi / tsukino me/ moon's eye plan. Tsukiyomi is one word that has three functions or meaning in the context of moons eye plan.

1. It means the goddess
2. It means the moon physically
3. It means also the mangekyo genjutsu.

Ok, first 2 meanings, ya, i get those but also the plan was said to cast the actual mangekyo ability tsukiyomi using the juubi's power to reveal it from the physical moon. My question is what does it mean if neither madara nor tobi can use the tsukiyomi technique?

Itachi is only known character to possess it and its strongly hinted sasuke can use it as well since he can also use amaterasu which itachi had as well.

The other sharingan genjutsu techniques we have seen, even mangekyo level ones like shisui's, are NOT tsukiyomi and each contained subtle differences and effects.

So, what does it mean if neither madara nor tobi possess nor have ability to CAST TSUKIYOMI?! It was a vital and necessary component in the plan seemingly for decades prior to itachi and sasuke yet only itachi so far can use it.

My answer is that there is an issue of foreknowledge at play here since only itachi and sasuke were the uchiha to survive after massacre and conveniently they have the tsukiyomi ability and conveniently tobi needs sasuke to synchronize with the tool which acts as part of the foundation for initiating the grand technique. Conveniently everything just happens to tie up and come together when sasuke obtains ems that should allow for inexhaustible mangekyo with no penalty of blindness.

Remember that tobi explained specifically that SHARINGAN would be used. Madara has rinnegan and im not certain that rinnegan just slips back in stages from rinnegan to ems to Ms to 3 tomoe sharingan when he's turning in for the night.

Tldr: it looks like neither madara nor tobi have the tsukiyomi genjutsu but it is specifically required for the moons eye plan to work and that plan was begun no later than when madara was actually still alive. What gives?

Edit ffs: yes, IM quite certain there is prophecy concerning another child of destiny, sasuke. The sage himself prophesied one to show the bijuu true power, the toads (seemingly tied to the lineage of younger brother loosely) had prophecy of naruto. The mere fact that the sage split the bloodline and we have a prophecy concerning one half then there should be another yet complimentary prophecy told within the older brothers line and its affiliates.

Evidence of foreknowledge and sasuke's half of the prophecy? Ok, the moons eye plan had been deteloped some time ago and was tobi's true aim all along. So if it was his intention to carry out such a plan for sooo long then why did he and akatsuki not begin capturing tailed beasts until after akatsuki had already rooted itself in the world for its fake,putting up a front reasons. Moons eye plan needs all the tailed beasts to revive the 10 tails AND MUST BE SEALED IN ORDER FROM 1 TO 9! Yet they did not begin capturing the first tailed beast UNTIL SASUKE WAS MATURE AND MANGEKYO AGE!! A plan enacted decades prior yet only really begins when sasuke is nearing readiness with his power. Its not a coincidence, and tobi went after the 9 tails before the other bijuu during naruto's birth f
I think mainly to destroy monogamy but also use its power to subjugate the other beasts but even so, moons eye plan had been around long before that even. Its also doubtful tobi was ignorant of the seal on naruto's belly being periodically and dangerously week, if he can know kakashi's morning grave visitation habits then sure as hell knows he could pluck kuybi, whom he has his eyes on, from a weak and deteriorating seal anytime he wants. What kept him was knowing that it was too soon at that point until sasuke grew and matured his destined power. Tobi always speaks of the 6 paths brothers, madara and hashirama, sasuke and naruto, as clear holes threaded through with powerful and crucial destiny.

I guess what seals the deal is that nagato had rinnegan for so long, could use rinnetensei when he wanted yet he sat for ages never reviving madara! Was it clear that reviving madara required the 10 tails to be revived first? U don't see how it could possibly require access to such insane godly power no matter how far in the past he died. Once again we have them waiting to revive madara during the time sasuke is finally mature even if edo tensei did it instead and did it only slightly sooner than expected.

LOL sorry, changed my question into another winded ramble :p

Some very interesting theory there! I am also interested in learning of Sasuke's full involvement, and Tobi's plans for him. One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to is what happens when Madara learns about Sasuke; currently he hasn't even hinted at knowing of Sasuke's existence, and I feel that Madara may have died a few years before Sasuke was born. And recently it seems like Tobi is willing to move ahead with the Moon's Eye Plan, despite Sasuke (supposedly a major component) not being present.

Good point that only/Sasuke have demonstrated Tsukiyomi (although I think only Itachi was confirmed to have the actual Tsukiyomi, unless Sasuke inherited that with EMS). Due to Tsukiyomi being the only Genjutsu with "Tsuki" in its name, it's possible that it's more nominally similar than actually magnifying the exact Tsukiyomi. However, there are many similarities between the "Tsuki no me"/"Mugen Tsukiyomi" and Itachi's "Tsukiyomi"...

My view on the Mugen Tsukiyomi technique is that, while it originally does reflect the Sharingan off the Moon, and then back to Earth, it actually does more than just perform a Genjutsu. I believe it would actually convert the physical world into a dream-like state for eternity, on the borderline between dream and reality, similar to Danzou during Izanagi (he was physically there, but as a dream). Otherwise the plan makes no sense; humanity quickly die of thirst/starvation due to everyone laying around in their dreams instead of taking care of their physical needs, and reproduction would obviously have ceased. People could theoretically avoid the technique by not looking at the Moon. Tobi himself would eventually die, and no one would be around to perform the technique, so there would just be a rampaging Juubi. In short, the technique HAS to do something to the physical world to serve any purpose other than causing mass extinction.

With that established, Itachi's Tsukiyomi is very similar to this; it causes people to experience days worth of time in mere minutes within the dream reality. I believe it is the Uchiha technique most similar to the Tsuki no Me, aside from the imperfect Izanagi that blurs dream and reality instead of creating actual reality.

Some very interesting theory there! I am also interested in learning of Sasuke's full involvement, and Tobi's plans for him. One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to is what happens when Madara learns about Sasuke; currently he hasn't even hinted at knowing of Sasuke's existence, and I feel that Madara may have died a few years before Sasuke was born. And recently it seems like Tobi is willing to move ahead with the Moon's Eye Plan, despite Sasuke (supposedly a major component) not being present.

Not sure what to make of that. When Tobi made it clear that he was going to move forward with the MEP (heh heh, such a funny acronym, MEP) I didn't interpret him as x-ing Sasuke out of the picture at least not yet. According to Zetsu, Tobi left him in charge of "guarding" Sasuke but neither of them predicted that Sasuke would run-off and involve himself in the battle. I think Tobi is under the impression that Zetsu is still guarding his charge and is completely ignorant that Sasuke has escaped. More than likely Tobi's original plans were along the lines of: "Sasuke your eyes may have healed but its still too risky. Zetsu will 'protect' you while I'm away." Tobi goes off to seal the Hachibi and Kyuubi, places them in the statue, come back to beat Sasuke into submission, puts him into the Juubi and well shit just fell apart didn't it.

It seemed to me that they needed Sasuke and Gedo Mazo (the Juubi) to complete the MEP. But if Tobi isn't planning on becoming one with the Juubi himself why did he recruit Sasuke to begin with? It's inconsistencies like these that make these discussions more terse than need be.

Not sure what to make of that. When Tobi made it clear that he was going to move forward with the MEP (heh heh, such a funny acronym, MEP) I didn't interpret him as x-ing Sasuke out of the picture at least not yet. According to Zetsu, Tobi left him in charge of "guarding" Sasuke but neither of them predicted that Sasuke would run-off and involve himself in the battle. I think Tobi is under the impression that Zetsu is still guarding his charge and is completely ignorant that Sasuke has escaped. More than likely Tobi's original plans were along the lines of: "Sasuke your eyes may have healed but its still too risky. Zetsu will 'protect' you while I'm away." Tobi goes off to seal the Hachibi and Kyuubi, places them in the statue, come back to beat Sasuke into submission, puts him into the Juubi and well shit just fell apart didn't it.

It seemed to me that they needed Sasuke and Gedo Mazo (the Juubi) to complete the MEP. But if Tobi isn't planning on becoming one with the Juubi himself why did he recruit Sasuke to begin with? It's inconsistencies like these that make these discussions more terse than need be.

Exactly; while Tobi hasn't exactly written Sasuke out of the picture, he's implied that he can perform the Moon's Eye Plan right here, right now. That's what the real tension is in the Naruto & Co. vs Tobi fight. It's hard to believe that Tobi will revive the incomplete Juubi, then warp off to complete the plan at a later time once he's talked with Sasuke.

Also, it's surprising that only ONE Zetsu was guarding Sasuke; you'd think if anything occurred in Akatasuki's main base, particularly involving Sasuke, Zetsu's network of roots would inform Tobi immediately.

Also, it's surprising that only ONE Zetsu was guarding Sasuke; you'd think if anything occurred in Akatasuki's main base, particularly involving Sasuke, Zetsu's network of roots would inform Tobi immediately.

Tobi's a smart man. He's planned so far ahead for so much. So it's very hard to believe that, considering Tobi knows Sasuke's personality, he would leave only one Zetsu, the one he knows not to be a strong direct combatant, with Sasuke and not expect anything to happen. He had to have worked Sasuke getting involved in the war somewhere in his master plan somehow someway, or else that's a major oversight on his part.