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I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

any chemical can be dangerous

I am going to quote myself here because I stand behind what I say. Some of you can now say that you have not tried to "force" your beliefs on people but, that is not true. I am in fact one of those people who you continued to browbeat about deworming. I posted in several different thread about my filly having allergies and asking people for their experiences and the same group of people would reply with the answer of "deworm" everytime despite me saying that my vet was positive it was not worm related....and sure enough with diet changes and the information from her allergy testing she is doing much better

I am not against deworming but, if horses are dying and people are skeptical and you are not a vet I would not tell everyone that all skin, lameness, hoof, hair loss, tail rubbing, and weight problems are from worms because they sometimes not. Some people are followers and will believe a group on here and try to self help their horses when they should call the vet. That is my point.

I am going to quote myself here because I stand behind what I say. Some of you can now say that you have not tried to "force" your beliefs on people but, that is not true. I am in fact one of those people who you continued to browbeat about deworming. I posted in several different thread about my filly having allergies and asking people for their experiences and the same group of people would reply with the answer of "deworm" everytime despite me saying that my vet was positive it was not worm related....and sure enough with diet changes and the information from her allergy testing she is doing much better

What you forgot to mention, in your personal situation, was that when asked WHY your vets didn't agree with it, you had no answer, because apparently they didn't give you one and you hadn't had the time to ask more specifics.

You have also missed, or chosen to ignore, the many different posters who have had success with this program have surprised their vets with the success, because guess what - the vets had no idea that a DD Equimax could be useful! The point being - just because a vet feels something isn't necessary - which is really a non-answer - does not mean it's not helpful, nor does it mean it's necessarily harmful, and can very well mean that they have no idea that protocol is out there and don't want to admit they don't know. Very big, important differences there.

I am not against deworming but, if horses are dying and people are skeptical and you are not a vet I would not tell everyone that all skin, lameness, hoof, hair loss, tail rubbing, and weight problems are from worms because they sometimes not.

Again, ONE horse on this thread died, coincidental to the use of the DD protocol, and that horse was already having some really weird shit going on, with quite a few folks feeling there was a whole 'nother ballgame going on with that horse. Guess what, horses die all the time because dewormers were NOT used.

Also, no one here is saying that all the things you mentioned are even nearly always caused by parasite loads. but I DO think that people are only now starting to fully realize the problems that even moderate loads CAN cause. MODERN scientific research is commenting that tapeworm infestation is likely the cause of more problems than have been suspected in the past.

Some people are followers and will believe a group on here and try to self help their horses when they should call the vet. That is my point.

Again, you missed, or have chosen to ignore, the MANY posters on this, and other similar threads, who say TALK TO YOUR VET. Nobody here has pointed a gun to anyone's cyber head and said do it. MOST people have gone out of their way, many times, to say "talk to your vet about this."

Hopefully you are going out of your way to say these same similar things on the myriad of training and other health care topics where advice, unsoliticed or not, is offered, for fear that the poster will blindly take the word of a bunch of anyonymous bb'ers

Please

It should also be considered that if/when a horses immune system is not working well, that they may have a harder time resisting parasite infestations. Then, a higher parasite load is going to perpetuate the issue. So perhaps when we deworm the snot out of an animal who has a skin issue, we are just enabling its immune system to work better by eliminating the parasites. In other words, something has to break the cycle!

Some of you can now say that you have not tried to "force" your beliefs on people but, that is not true. I<snip>

the same group of people would reply with the answer of "deworm" everytime despite me saying that my vet was positive it was not worm related....and sure enough with diet changes and the information from her allergy testing she is doing much better

I am not against deworming but, if horses are dying and people are skeptical and you are not a vet I would not tell everyone that all skin, lameness, hoof, hair loss, tail rubbing, and weight problems are from worms because they sometimes not. Some people are followers and will believe a group on here and try to self help their horses when they should call the vet. That is my point.

dont worry SSFlandon - i am seeing the same thing you are seeing re: posts...... i too had a thread about allergies/skin issues and i too got the posts about it couldnt be allergies and that i should double dose with wormer.... (and no mention of seeking vet advice - just several people telling me that to DD and what could it hurt?)

dont worry SSFlandon - i am seeing the same thing you are seeing re: posts...... i too had a thread about allergies/skin issues and i too got the posts about it couldnt be allergies and that i should double dose with wormer.... (and no mention of seeking vet advice - just several people telling me that to DD and what could it hurt?)

Thanks, I'm glad someone sees my point and does not take experimentation of chemicals and animals into their own hands based on some radom people

FYI, I had a horse in my barn die (put down) after Equimax. The vets can't rule out that the chemical did not cross her blood barrier in her mouth somehow. It's one of the new unknown issues that science has yet to totally uncover. She was a founder horse who was suffering from a foot abcess at the time of deworking. Shortly after she showed VERY odd neuro signs and had to be put down in short...could me epm, tumor, DEWORMER, stroke....who knows

I'm not going to tell you all everything I have seen in life I am however not going to just do something because you think I should. You can badger all you want and you will get followers...I am not one of them.

and you fail to reread all your posts all over this board where you do tell everyone to DEWORM

I admit I had not seen the reference to "skin crud" on the Equimax box! Excellent to know - I know some people HAD "wormed the snot" out of a horse as an effort to help dermatitis issues.

I went and looked at a box I have and was not able to find the reference to skin conditions. But I did see that the box lists onchocerca as one of the parasites it targets.

I DD'd two horses without incident; probably, however, after the O. cycle had run its course, if that was the cause of the skin condition they had.

I plan to keep a very close eye on this in the upcoming season, and to be very methodical about my record keeping. I suggest that others do the same, and perhaps some clear answers will emerge. There is also every reason to keep all vets in the loop--they are the ones whose reports will be heeded at professional seminars.

FYI, I had a horse in my barn die (put down) after Equimax. The vets can't rule out that the chemical did not cross her blood barrier in her mouth somehow. It's one of the new unknown issues that science has yet to totally uncover. She was a founder horse who was suffering from a foot abcess at the time of deworking. Shortly after she showed VERY odd neuro signs and had to be put down in short...could me epm, tumor, DEWORMER, stroke....who knows

FYI, I had a horse in my barn die (put down) after Equimax. The vets can't rule out that the chemical did not cross her blood barrier in her mouth somehow.

And? Horses have died from moxidectin, used properly, proper dose, proper horse (ie not old or sick or too thin or too young). And yes, horses have died from the VERY occasional crossing of the *ivermectin* over the blood-brain barrier. Has nothing to do with Equimax, has nothing to do with DD'ing, it's something that can and has happened, though rarely, with ivermectin.

dont worry SSFlandon - i am seeing the same thing you are seeing re: posts...... i too had a thread about allergies/skin issues and i too got the posts about it couldnt be allergies and that i should double dose with wormer.... (and no mention of seeking vet advice - just several people telling me that to DD and what could it hurt?)

Gee, 3 whole people suggested a possible solution to your issue, along with personal experiences. I never saw anyone say it couldn't be allergies.

BTW - it's not uncommon for a horse to test "allergic" to everything on the planet (how is the horse still alive??) when the immune system is compromised to some degree. Fix the issue, and "magically" the horse doesn't test allergic to nearly as many things.

so, not to start a debate.... but from what i have read, the microfilea of neck thread worms are what can cause issues for some horses - but what is actually causing the issues is the microfilia *dying* and since adult NTW live in the horse and can't be killed with wormer, the minute you start worming and kill off the micofilea that are infesting new ones come and take their place..... it is an ongoing cycle.

i would also be curious to see if anyone has actually had their horse biopsied.... to see if what is going on actually *is* NTW..... anyone?

Merck reports that horses infested with NTW may not show any clinical signs and many that do shows clinical signs dont have NTW .....

i just think that people really like to be "doing" what everyone else is doing... and clearly is it is now cool to "DD" you horse

i hope people do some research and base their treatments on real scientific data....

and finally, as in many things... horses with "skin crud" can and do heal themselves... and whatever treatment was being used at that time will undoubtedly be attributed to the horse being "healed"

and one final note: while heavy worm loads are not a good thing - this idea of horses are needing to be 100% worm free is just -unnatural. most horses are capable of self healing/self cleaning etc the normal worms that live within them..... it is only when that system gets out of whack that things get bad.
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so, not to start a debate.... but from what i have read, the microfilea of neck thread worms are what can cause issues for some horses - but what is actually causing the issues is the microfilia *dying* and since adult NTW live in the horse and can't be killed with wormer, the minute you start worming and kill off the micofilea that are infesting new ones come and take their place..... it is an ongoing cycle.

Given that the adults can live 10+ years, you're right, it can be a long ongoing cycle.

But live worms have been associated (more than anecdotally) with things like contracted tendons, suspensory desmitis, nuchal ligament issues, and fistulous withers.

Merck reports that horses infested with NTW may not show any clinical signs and many that do shows clinical signs dont have NTW .....

Not surprising at all. It doesn't mean you should assume they are not a problem, nor does it mean you should assume they are

ei hope people do some research and base their treatments on real scientific data....

sometimes the field IS the research.

and finally, as in many things... horses with "skin crud" can and do heal themselves... and whatever treatment was being used at that time will undoubtedly be attributed to the horse being "healed"

Sure, it happens all the time - the result may be coincidental. That doesn't mean there isn't a valid point in looking to see if there was indeed a direct correlation between the 2.

and one final note: while heavy worm loads are not a good thing - this idea of horses are needing to be 100% worm free is just -unnatural. most horses are capable of self healing/self cleaning etc the normal worms that live within them..... it is only when that system gets out of whack that things get bad.
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I don't think any one has advocated a 100% worm-free horse. I know I haven't, and in several parasite threads have mentioned 100% free is not the ldeal goal.

do you have that research? the Merck site seems to be implying its anecdotal

There are multiple onchocerca types that can affect equines.

Onchocerca Cervicalis is the one that typically invades the neck. Onchocerca reticulata - adult forms are known to be found in the tendons and suspensory ligaments of equines.
I don't think it would take much to project that adult forms could create damage.

Effects of parasite if left untreated: Adult worms in the ligaments and tendons cause swelling and pain. There can also be bumps under the skin on ligaments and tendons caused by the hardening of dead worms. If these bumps disable the horse, surgery may be necessary. The presence of the adult worms may also cause lameness and swelling of the ligaments.

From what I could find - skin biopsies are the most researched for the cervicalis. Reticulata is found through disection. Since contracted tendons occur primarily in foals and is usually treated through a variety of not always successful treatments - it would be difficult to study without euthanizing all foals with contracted tendons just to see what is causing it. JMO.

There are plenty of studies, dating back to the 70's, of the results of necropsies and Onchocerca. Anyone curious can do a search and pull them up. I think it has been done repeatedly on this thread. When I did it I was actually surprised at how much information there was on them - and how there was no recognition of them otherwise. However.. I think this thread is actually impacting the "world of worms" because this study I have (the 8 page one, that I may end up just having to type out, the copy is so bad) refers to them. Smartpak has added verbage about them too. My vet still has no idea what they are but that's ok, I don't expect her to know everything.. I would prefer her to educate herself about other things, I can do this myself!

what i was specifically asking about is studies that rain rot etc are the result of neck thread worms. not that they actually exist in the ligaments etc.

has anyone had their horse biopsied?

as for smart pak and others adding language - sure because they know it is the new big fad and that if they want to make $$$ they better get with the times and keep their customers happy. (ie support their ideas of what is "wrong" with their horses)