College, or Certifications?

Hey everyone,
I have a 2 yr in CIS/business and I have been pondering getting my four year in an IT field=2E However, I have had some people tell me that it would be a waste of time and I should concentrate on the IT certifications=2E I currently work as a HelpDesk/Support Technician, and will be working on the MCDST in May=2E I am a former Police officer and I would like to increase my proficiency and move toward the security side in the future=2E What do you guys think would be the best route?

Rex,
In any field, a four year degree is essential. It shows your future
employers that you can finish what you started and you have more of an
education(those nasty general requirements) than just your field of
study.
IT certifications are also very important. They show you have a mastery
of subjects, and proof of professional accomplishment. If you want to
go as far as you can in your career, a degree and certifications are
your ticket.

Depending on what your long-term career goals are, a
four year degree may help. I don't have a degree and
it has not stopped me from getting jobs (and a lot of
phone calls from recruiters). There is one place I
can't apply, the CIA because of their degree
requirements. Other than that, I have not seen any
problems. Only you can decide for yourself if you
want to pursue it. It can be helpful in some
situations and others it may not matter.

My background includes having been a police officer and I now work in IT
security. I was also at one point a Senior Manager in IT and did hiring,
etc.

I can tell you that if there are two candidates and one has a degree and one
does not, usually management leans to the degree holding candidate, who also
has tech skills (notice I did not specify certs only).

Reason being is that many companies can let you get your certs while you are
there. Plus keep in mind how many certs are becoming "paper" certs, where
online dumps basically give the answers, so the value of many certs have
gone down. In other words, be careful the certs you get.

As far as security certs go a combo of a SANS GIAC cert and a ISC2 cert with
a CIS college degree. This will really make you attractive to employers.

Remember that the CISSP will require college and employment experience in IT
for a few years or a few years in direct IT Security before you can get it,
which has to be signed off by another CISSP to verify your experience.

Also, most employers now either require a college degree or prefer it for
anything above a desktop technician. All IT security jobs I have seen that
are worth anything require a degree. If you just work off certs, at some
point your head will hit a cap on jobs and you will get stuck behind those
with a degree.

It took me a while (4 years part time) but I am almost done with my Masters
degree in CIS. On top of that I have a CISSP and two CISCO certs. I am
planning on my EnCE ( EnCase Certified Computer Examiner), which is for
computer forensics in the next year.

Good advice but some what biased. Keep in mind that some employers will
take a candidate who can provide results over a candidate with a degree or
certs.
It really depends on the culture and mindset of the potential employer.
Most look very favorable at prior IT experience in the Military as they
presume you are a disciplined, self started who requires little or no
supervision....

You have a lot of "head food" in these responses. There is really no
right/wrong response. Only what is best for you. Consider them all.
Consider your locale, your goals, your niche in the business. Not all
security positions are related to designing network architecture or running
VAT scans ...

Rather than write a book to this question I'll take the lazy way out and
suggest that if you think you can get by with just the certifications, make
sure you look at the right certification.

You probably want to look at something like the GIAC program from SANS. The
CISSP is more for folks who need a high-level working or conversational
knowledge of ten security domains. The GIAC gets more into the "weeds" of
the

Agree Fergie on military (I had not addressed that group), but don't think I
am too biased :-)

I have worked with 3 companies, all in IT management before specializing in
security (got tired of the management politics), so I have done alot of
hiring of everything from helpdesk to security.

The problem today is this: There have been alot of layoffs of IT folks
around the country and when we posted jobs, applications came in like
gangbusters so one of the easiest first sorting methods for HR departments
is the college degree. Not that that is right, but it does reduce the pile
of applications in their mind. Remember they sometimes have no idea what
the certs are and many HR departments are far removed from the actual hiring
departments in very large companies.

The department manager usually does not look at all the applications made to
a company, there are usually too many, so HR culls is according to corporate
standards and that can include a degree. So the app may never make it to
the hiring managers desk to see if the person is a results person.

I do agree that talent is important, in fact I worked with the HR department
in my last company to get them to change the word "required" to "optional"
for a college degree.

I also agree that there is no right or wrong answer, but covering your bases
never hurts until the pendulum swings to more positions than candidates.

A four year degree today is what a high school diploma was 25 years
ago. Get the four year degree and you will never regret it. Forgo it,
and you will always wish you had it. Having it can not harm you, not
having it will limit you. Suck it up and get the degree. It's the
right thing to do.

I concur with Bill completely; a 4-year degree is probably your best option so that you do not limit yourself in the future. You can always augment your skills with several certificates, but you do need that 4-year degree as a foundation. The IT field is very competitive and will continue to be so it is best to bite the bullet now than later.

I wan't using bias in the negative context that it has come to be known. It
simply means that the text slanted one way or another. I perceived a slant.
I Understand that the slant was not intentional. I Understood and agree
with the premise of layoffs causing a a paucity of IT personell who may or
may not be qualified as security analysts and engineers. I only meant to
suggest that based on my 27 years in the industry, the discriminating
factors for employment are not necessarily the classic set. I wanted the
person who submitted the query to know that there are other avenues from
which to approach a transition into security.

Far too often those who write the requirements for a security position, have
no concept of the duties and responsibilities for that position and look
only for the classice discriminators such as a degree or decades of
experience.

I think we are in violent agreement that having a degree and or
certifications places the candidate in a far better postion than not having
them.

"Far too often those who write the requirements for a security position,
have
no concept of the duties and responsibilities for that position and look
only for the classice discriminators such as a degree or decades of
experience."

Thanks everyone for all of your comments. I work very near a 4 year
college and I am eligible for an academic as well as minority
scholarship, so it would probably be unwise not to pursue that part at
this time. My work encourages training and I will try to pursue the
certifications as well.
One last question, to start with the very basic certification to stride
for towards the security field, what should you start with? I keep
seeing CISSP, and other stuff, but would something like a Network +
certification being the first step.

I have my 4yr degree and to many certs to list. I have worked as a
contractor for the military and also on the civilian side of the house for
the past 23 years.

A degree puts you ahead no matter how you look at it. Even now the military
is requiring not only your certs but also a 4yr degree. Yes they do say
experience can be substituted for your degree. But if you have a candidate
with his certs, degree and experience as you have the opportunities will be
endless.

Robert

Robert Newborg
Not as lean, Not as mean, But still a Marine.
Semper Fi!

I disagree, having it *can* harm if you don't get hired.
Many people get loans to go through college and have a huge debt by the
time it's all over.
A ran across an article called 'College is for idiots'. While I think
the author was very angry towards his investment, he does have a few
points.
I, personally, could barely be able to afford going through college
*and* having a full-time job to keep up with life, so I would only
wiling to attend college if I was pretty confident in the fact that I
got a job.

As mentioned eariler, the papers that sometimes get removed first are
the ones without a degree. It was also mentioned that there are many
layoffs and plenty of IT -- meaning I don't have a signifigant chance.
Investing 20k+ for college is *allot* of money for some people, and so
certs start looking awfully appealing. Cheap, fast, and quick -- this is
why so many people have them; not because they are just handed out like
candy (heck, you can find all kinds of college hand outs on the net).

There are companys that you can work for and will pay a portion of your
tuiton based on your grades. These companies can be difficult to find.

Perhaps the ideal situation is to go through military and go through
college after (they help pay for college!), and after that you are
pretty safe to have some job (if not military at least).

I hope I've casted a differen't opinoin as to get a unique debate here.

The higher the goal, the harder the path.
It took me 8 years to graduate from college. Many that do that are called "Doctors"
Yet now I have earned more than Doctors, I have to say

Do not judge a person on one merit, but all their merits. I am a college graduate, but not in
"15th Centuary Poets" major. I majored in Business, MIS track. That is what got me my first step into the IT world.
Then I took any job in the IT field I could find, step 2. Then I read every article I could get my hand on, step 3.
Then I took any challenge to learn, bugged the IBM field reps who came out, asked the Oracle Support I called where they recieved their information from..And most importantly I read user manuals (I know...arghh)

Start to learn, start to grow
Cease to learn, start to die.

I would hire a person with the most experiance, and a past shown they are not afraid to take long
hours of work (what college teaches us is to "stick it out for the most inane of reasons") and was technically acute.
A hard worker with common sense is alwawys your best bet. But as noted, life is biased, and College Degrees will almost always win over a High School Diploma in all aspects.

Educate your self everywhere, College, Certifications etc. If you want to achieve all you can be, "Start to learn !"

Point taken but, I managed to get an Associates then a Bachelors then a
Masters over the span of 20 years in the Army. All from night classes. The
Bachelors and Masters after getting married and having two kids. My wife
was also in the Army so I know about "life" getting in the way of an
education. But, as a professor once told me, "If you think getting an
education is expensive... try living with out one." Though that professor
did not mention a degree specifically, as many folks in the thread have
pointed out, a great many employers do not take the time to make the
distinction. The hiring process is just that, a process.

As with any process, it has parameters and metrics upon which decisions get
based. The metrics have associated discriminators (relax all you old timers
from the 60s, there is nothing racial about the work discriminator),
unfortunately one of those discriminators is a college degree. Despite the
growing feeling that colleges and universities are nothing more than diploma
mills collecting tuition and caring very little about the education they
mete out, a diploma is still a heavily weighted discriminator in the hiring
process.

Think of it as a path of least resistance for HR and the folks doing the
hiring. They can spend the time and money to research your background and
conduct extensive interviews and testing to assess your skill set and
determine you potential, or they can use the classic yardstick for that step
in the process and determine whether you have a degree. That isn't likely
to change until someone can identify and introduce a viable set of
replacement metrics for the process.

So, in the context of whether the investment is good or bad for the
individual, isn't that a call for the individual? It is speculation at its
best. One invests the time and effort and money to acquire a degree. It is
only after acquiring that degree and assessing a return on the investment
that one can really condemn or condone the effort/investment and then only
from a personal point of view.

If you have the opportunity (particulary if a company is paying for your
tuition, I personally feel that you would be foolish not to persue a degree
even if it is in night school. The certifications can come along as a
subsequence/consequence of your daily work.

Yes. Most certainly. Think of how many times you have been in the same
room with people where you can hear the intonation and inflection of the
voice, view their facial expressions, see their body language ... and still
misunderstand the message they are trying to convey!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is much more difficult, by orders of magnitude, to extract the intended
meaning from the written word particularly when one is trying to exercise
brevity to save time and space...

Guys,
Forget about college degrees. Try to learn how to lie
very efficiently in your resumes. I paid tution
through my nose, doing $3 per hour jobs, and earned my
BS and MS computer science. But this Tsunami of H1B
holders into US, completely changed my respect towards
the degrees. About 95% of H1Bs especially from India
do not have a formal degree in computer science. They
are getting trained for one month in Indian garages,
and fabricating their resumes like having 10 years of
experience, an eye catching to the employer, and
snatching the jobs. And every Dick and Hardy who can
touch a key board is a SOFTWARE ENGINNER now.

I also concur that in the long run the four year degree is best for you.
Someone else mentioned that you need to determine what is best for you, that you
should consider all the advice and weigh it all on what you value, this I also
concur with.

Another tidbit to consider. A four year degree will take you at least that much
time, depending on how many breaks you take along the way and/or how much you
can double up on the courses. But a Cert of some kind might take you only 3-6
months to study for and then take the test/pass. So my advice for your
consideration is to be actively going to school, getting that degree, while at
the same time studying for a cert (say take 4-8 months to prepare) and take that
test. Now your 'employablity' (because you HAVE the cert) might be considerably
up. You can demonstrate to a potential employer your educational values
(actively pursuing the 4 year degree) AND having gotten a Cert concurrently,
indicating you have depth, breadth and the will/determination to demonstrate you
are dedicated and skilled.

It will eventually clear itself out. When push comes to shove, they will
fail.
Some companies (like govt related) actually contact the universities and
make sure you didn't lie / fudge something.
Getting caught fudging some of those has some hefty consequences.
I'm not willing to get black-balled from any field for that, imagine how
much harder it is to clean up (assuming you do learn your lesson after
getting caught). Why would anyone want to trust you?

The facts are well documented, in study after study, that clearly
correlates the relationship between the number of years of college
education and income. Income is directly proportional to education. If
someone is not getting hired with a college degree then there may be
other issues, like personality, poor interviewing techniques, or lack of
experience that is impeding the individuals' success. Those factors will
be present regardless of whether the person gets a college degree or
certifications.

Yes, the college degree is more expensive, but you get what you pay for.
College degrees *never* expire! If you add up the cost of
re-certification, every two years or so, over a thirty year career, then
that track does not look that much less expensive then a college education.

Unfortunately, due to outsourcing and the 'global economy' that we live
in today a B.S. degree is somewhat equivalent to what a High School
Diploma was twenty years ago. What this means is that in order to have a
reasonably good chance of getting a job, given the current market
conditions, you will need at least a B.S. degree, more likely a Masters
degree.

Certifications will help, after you obtain a college degree. Currently
in the Philadelphia area, there are ten MCSE's for every one job opening.

Additionally, employers have come to realize that given all of the
choices in 'preparation materials' available to potential certification
candidates, there are a number of certified people with worthless
credentials. Certifications do not carry the same weight that they once
did. Yes there will always be the 'hot topic' which will fade away in a
year or two when everyone jumps on the bandwagon and floods the market
place. Again the college degree will never expire, what price can you
place on that peace of mind?

Irv Schlanger
Professor of IT Security
Goodwin College of Professional Studies
Drexel University
3001 Market St.
Phila. PA 19104

I spent 4 years in the military learning electronic communications and
high-frequency radio, eventually getting my 1st Class FCC license. I spent
years working on my degree at night - but with 3+ years of credits under my
belt (and a young and growing family), it just wasn't making a difference
career-wise in terms of $.

After working as a FTE for 10 years I went the consulting route and obtained
4 Cisco certifications. I have been a consultant now for 10 years and I am
studying for my CCIE and Security certs.

I don't think deceit or stretching the truth on your resume is the answer to
anything. Experience + networking yourself among industry professionals is
the answer. Anyone can say anything on a resume. But you must demonstrate
yourself professional throughout the interview process and then provide
value to the corporation once hired. After all, these are your potential
future references (as well as possible re-hires for consultant assignments).

In order to stay at the forefront of the industry you need to watch industry
trends. To that end I am studying VoIP, Wireless, and Storage Network
technologies. Additionally, I am using the experience I have had over the
years to leverage opportunities as a project manager.

Hourly rates have dropped significantly since 9/11 primarily because of the
economic downturn combined with the flood of foreign techs (all of whom seem
to have a Master's degree from Bombay University). During the early 90's it
was difficult in IT but things turned around. The industry and economics
tend to weed out those who can't continue and eventually there is an upturn.
That is the reality of the never-ending economic cycle. Employers always
appreciate engineers and project managers who not only understand
technology, but can communicate effectively both verbally and in writing.

While re-upping your certs may cost about the same (for a couple-many
certs) it also gives you something *now* and allows you to perhaps get
your foot in the door and thusly get you certs+2-3 years experience,
which last I checked (uggh, 2 years ago? I don't know if it's changed
all that much...), was pretty close to a college degree.
Now, this still may not get you in the door for those biz's that require
a degree no matter what (are they really that stubborn? Even if you have
15+ years experience?! I'm just cuirous.) however it still allows you to
get going in a better position.

Another note, why do you have to re-up every time? I can't imagine
re-upping *every* cert *everytime*, I probably would re-up on the latest
and greatest and place on my resume
(very basic example using certs everyone should know)

A+ 1999-2004
Network+ 2002-2005
Security+ 2003-2005

At some point you develop a huge list of certs and probably end up
keeping only a few up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying *don't* goto college, I'm just
offering an alternative (hopefully) that may suffice for some and may
not for others. To each his own.

Getting back onto the Security-Career field, I would probably college
would good thing. If you have a high GPA, it should show you are
thorough and in the security field, is a very big plus (requirement? How
can you require something you can't really prove?).

I agree with the "Honesty" part. You don't know how easy it is and how small of a world it is
when you get caught lying on your resume. Your name spreads around the IT recruiters quickly.
I even just a few months ago while at Verizon heard of a group so desperate for a DB2 Mainframe
guy that one recruiter hired a Sr.DB2 Mainframe guy to pose as the person being interviewed on the phone screen
She got her commission, and the guy that showed up crashed the system in 2 days with a mistaken deletion. Cost to Verizon, 2 days of restoration and 500 after the fact meetings. Oh, and one fired DB2 guy and recruiter that lost her integrity in a small area around her.

Toward my comment at the beginning of this thread... case in point. That
worked for you. It may not work for everyone.

As it happened, all of my degrees (also accomplished at night, with a
family) were ADP/IT Related. Only the Masters was specifically Security
related.

******* Check your reality. Know the work/job space. Know what your
potential employer expects. Know what skill set(s) you need to satisfy
those expectations. Investigate your options once you commit to gaining
those skill sets with regard to a down turn in the need for those skills.
If the employer will foot the bill for tuition, a degree is an excellent
goal. (Chances are they may pay for training towards a certification too.
Particularly if the company is bidding on government IT tasks. Do your home
work, set a goal, launch yourself toward that goal. From my personal
experiences, the first step is the most difficult *****

I worked at a university at my first/last IT job. I had free tuition,
so I took my time finishing my CIS degree. At first I figured I would
get certs to further my career and look for another job. When I started
looking, anything above Desktop Support (I had 7 years of experience at
this point, so help desk wasn't an option) needed that degree, and some
wanted a computer related degree. So I buckled down to make myself more
marketable. I now have a great job with A LOT of opportunity to succeed
and grow. Now I'm working on my CCNA and MCSwhatevers. It's such a
weight off the shoulders to finally finish the degree you paid so much
for and worked so hard at.

The claim of "study after study" has little value to a person trying to
accumulate emperical data on which to make a decision of this sort unless
you are prepared to provide all of these studies and they are prepared to
ingest and analyze the data presented in those studies.

One could question whether there ever were any "valid certifications" out
there. As far back as the original Novel certifications there were people
who simply "tested well" and acquired the certification(s). But when push
came to shove, they could not deliver. Performance from rote memory does
not always translate well to the tactile world.

Regardless, as is clear from the preponderance of opinions in this thread,
you can see that even in this small but hopefully representative sampling of
the community you should seriously consider persuing a degree. There are
even schools these days that offer degrees via on-line curriculum if that
best suites your needs. These are not fly-by-night diploma mills that
result in fictitious credentials but NSA approved Centers of Excellence for
Information Security.

Rex,
I can only tell you what I know for sure. Before 9/11 I was a
director over consulting practices in networking and security.
When I lost my job I tried to find another, but no one was
hiring a director without a college degree. With 20 years in the
business of IT, I saw the job market dwindle for those without
degrees. Big 6/5/4 Consulting companies went first, then major
corportations. I interviewed for a few good jobs in the past
couple of years, found through networking and posting, but was
told for everything from CTO to PM that I couldn't be hired
without a degree (company policy). I went back to school (after
20 years)and now, with a BA and 2 years spent struggling with
being un and underemployed, I have a job as a manager, making
half as much as I did when I was a director. Given 20/20
hindsight, I should have stayed in school that one more year
back in the 70's...

My advice, stay in school, get that degree, it's cheaper now than it will ever be.

In most companies you definitely need a degree if you
are to rise above anything other than supervisor. I
don't think just having a degree means all that much.
I've worked with plenty of incompetent degreed an
non-degreed people.

Here is just one example of how ridiculous one company
can be in the weeding out process. This was posted on
Monster.com about a month ago which I paraphrase.
Network engineer wanted. BS or BA in computer related
field, 10+ years experience. Must possess knowledge of
networking and database. Must be MCSE, MCDBA, Oracle
Database certification, CCNP or CCIE,A+, Net+, and a
few other certs I can no longer recall. Really, how
many people do you think hold 7 or more
certifications, and have a solid foundation in both
networks and database management or development. With
these kinds of requirements, I can envision only a
trickle of applicants with at least half the
parameters.

I know from an industry insider with IT tech recruiters that they post
these ridiculous postings just to get a resume pool. I agree with David
100%, who HAS all of these certs??? Who really is a CCIE, a developer,
and a DBA, with expert knowledge of each?

oh my my cretification certifications!! why our degree dont get us a good job on which we are spending soo much why dont we strainght away do a certification instead of doing a silly degree which is of no cost to you after a while , i think i am angry about this , as i am spending soo much on an IT degree where i knw i will not get a good job without doing certification

You need them both. The college degree is for the administrators and
managers who know nothing (or little) of what you (or your job) is about and
the certifications, for the techies who also have a vote in the decision of
"who shall be hired." It's the world we live in today (It's a small world
after-all).

Getting a few certs will probably get your foot in the door (neither
certs nor degree with guarantee a job). While the foot is in the door,
do some college in the mean time (or make some kind of arrangement) such
that you can advance in the company.

Then again, the age of the global economy is becoming more important and
it's (slowly) balancing out. Yes, it bites right now but such is life.
While I didn't live in the 80's, I remember my father complaining of
pretty much the same thing I see on the mailing list...

It's morning and I don't have fiene... *siiiiip* *longer sip*. Mmm.
Have a good day!

Ok, I think we have beaten the "College vs Certification" horse to death !
End result : Mileage may vary, consult your inner child and live life to it's fullest in all areas
Money is a means to an end, not a happy life in itself.

Ha Ha ! Who writes these things. In early years I was a DBA, because they were in demand, then Oracle Financials came in, and I finally was a DBA on that system, then SAP was hot, so I finally came around and got into BASIS. Then datawarehouse, so I get into BW. Then SAP hot again, so I go to apply and they say "Sorry we need someone who was current on that skill", geeze, I am out 6 months and I am no longer SAPPY. What these employers want can be mind boggling. Why don't they just quick making people contractors and start sending their employees to training. What ever happend to the good old days (Sigh)

The USA? Thats a big place? What was the population canvased? What were
the metrics and qualifiers? The results were skewed to so what? By whom?
For whom?

Whenever I see or hear about a survey I engage the 7 interrogatives(Yes I
know most people only speak/learn of 6 but my years in and among Military
Intelligence suggest there is a 7th) Who? What? Where? When? Why? How? and
Huh?

<dreaming>
It would be nice to have someone start an Techie aprenticeshipor
something; That which is a college and certs, and will do job
placement...
Imagine how many less emails will appear asking obvious questions (IE:
Where is the open port button?)
It just seems that many other fields have it, why not Security, IT,
SysAdmin, etc?
</dreaming>

It would also be nice if a group of subject matter experts could get
together a publish a series of books that would eliminate the need for such
questions. We can't be too hard on the folks who ask them. It doesn't mean
they are stupid, it only means they are ignorant. I don't view ignorance as
a bad thing. The word in it's base form just means that you don't know
something. If you don't know something you ask questions to learn unless
the Machismo is so thick and your spirit so weak that you are emabrassed or
afraid to ask.

Now stupidity, particluarly abject stupidity, there would be a thread to
investigate!!!!!!!!!

I agree to Kelly's statement ..... enjoy life while you are able. Hard earned efforts in the I.T industry constantly be superseded in the short run but life's adventures are a lasting thing ..... that's my 2 quid on that matter - back to work.

I would get a bachelors in something different because IT managers hire not only from a pool of computer science types but also business as well and then do a fast track to your masters. The bachelors as discussed above is becoming command place, certifications can help you concentrate and become a specialist or subject master expert (SMES). I would wait a while before pursuing the PHD because you can become way over qualified for most jobs.

ITtoolbox security-careerHaving been a hiring manager, first is to finish your education and get your degree. Though certifications are good to have, they are no longer proof of proficiency in a job and sorry to say they are becoming a dime a dozen in applicants, especially with all the paper certs out there.
As a result, your resume may get overlooked in deference to others with a higher educational level. A Bachelors degree is considered as a basic essential degree in many places. Your degree should benefit the area you want to work in. Business degrees are nice in that they do show a more rounded candidate. Ryan is correct in that in the end your Masters Degree needs to be the most focused degree you have and eventually a PhD after a few years if you are interested in teaching or research. Doctoral degrees right out of grad school are generally only needed in law, medicine etc. For the technical side give yourself some work years.
With all the certifications out there, unless it was a CCIE or something of that level where I have a nitch I need to hire very high expertise for, I am going to look for degrees. Too many candidates with certifications so I am going to shoot for an educated candidate with skills.
Just my opinion.

Depends where you live. In Italy, experience and a lot of luck. My 110/110
cum laude engineer friends work with ridicolous contract for 2 months, then
they're searching for a new job, and they're 30 years old. Same thing for
certified IT technicians.
You have to catch opportunities.

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