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Mostly it's due to good pilots and the prayers things have gone well, otherwise not much to talk about PIA. Just look where Emirates are now and where PIA is.

Definitely, Pakistan have the best and most courageous pilots in the world across commercial and military aircraft.

Aircraft performance depends on air density, which effects lift, engine power and propeller efficiency. And as density increases aircraft performance decreases, at low altitudes near the mountains the air density is really high and the air flow is a bit more turbulent. What am guessing is that the pilot had studied the high altitude characteristics of the plane and realised that he could only do so much in terms of pushing the aircraft performance limits because under certain density altitude conditions you need to be careful with take off and landing distances, that could be one of the reasons for the crash besides the general poor maintenance.

I'd never want to use PIA, how often to Emirates and BA from the UK go directly to Pakistan? I've not been in a while and family who do always be like we sought of had no choice to use PIA and it was more convenient.

A man with two different avatars and two different lives, loved and admired in both. First as a singer and then as a pious and restraint man.

I so well remember his hits from my childhood days. I used to love his song "Na tu aayegi na hee chayn aayega" back in those days, and who won´t love his "Dil dil Pakistan"? We recorded his last stage performance on a video cassette, which was shown on ARY Digital in 2003 or so I think. My brother too was a fan of his singing.

Prayers for him, his wife and the rest of the passengers who´ve lost their lives, and to those who´ve lost their beloved ones in this plane crash. What a tragedy!

Last edited by DHONI183; 7th December 2016 at 21:21.

"It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

Mostly it's due to good pilots and the prayers things have gone well, otherwise not much to talk about PIA. Just look where Emirates are now and where PIA is.

National airline reflects the Countries economy, Foreigners travelling into respected country, and good governance.

Even though PIA helped establishing Emirate, We can't compare both airline with each other. Better comparison would be with Ethiopian Airline.

'Mr. Silver compared near misses for each airline over the two periods, 1985-1999 and 2000-2014. And guess which airline stood out to be consistently high risk prone over the two periods: Pakistan International Airlines.

“There are also a few major outliers in the chart: two are Pakistan International Airlines and Ethiopian Airlines, which have had a persistently high rate of incidents,” wrote Mr. Silver.

Shocking news. The news of a plane crash is always very sad to hear as the chances for finding the survivors are virtually zero. But it is even more tragic when you know some on board.

Junaid was well known in the whole country across every segment of society. As a singer he was an icon and as an evangelist he was an example for many. Also operated a popular garments outlet across country. He also used to anchor religious proegrams during Ramzan.
Thus, he was a household name in Pakistan because of his work. He was a familiar name among youth and old, in religious and secular circles. And in showbiz he was a legend and an icon.
It feels as some one from close relatives has departed.

At this time I am remembering advice of my uncle who works in Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) in Karachi, Pakistan. Last time when I went to Pakistan via PIA (only direct flight to Pakistan from Toronto) and met him, he asked which airline I took. When I told him PIA then he was not happy and told me dont take PIA again. He said there is lot of corruption and air planes are wrongly certified fitted when they are not because of corruption. Pakistan has to be one of the worst corrupted country of the world

I remember EU or was it UK that banned PIA from flying due to unmaintained aircrafts.

Its shocking how in Pakistan they can put your life at risk and absolutely dont value a human life. Never trust anything in Pakistan, especially whats run by the gov. Railways, aeroplanes, bridges or any civil service, unless its run by the army, which is the only capable institution left in the country.

If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

I remember EU or was it UK that banned PIA from flying due to unmaintained aircrafts.

Its shocking how in Pakistan they can put your life at risk and absolutely dont value a human life. Never trust anything in Pakistan, especially whats run by the gov. Railways, aeroplanes, bridges or any civil service, unless its run by the army, which is the only capable institution left in the country.

I remember EU or was it UK that banned PIA from flying due to unmaintained aircrafts.

Its shocking how in Pakistan they can put your life at risk and absolutely dont value a human life. Never trust anything in Pakistan, especially whats run by the gov. Railways, aeroplanes, bridges or any civil service, unless its run by the army, which is the only capable institution left in the country.

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'oon, very shocked. What made it worse is that this was avoidable and that the goons at PIA won't even be held accountable. Going by the reports, whoever approved the flight despite being told the aircraft wasn't ready should take a long, hard look in the mirror. When so many people depend on your decision making, you can't be this reckless.

Was a legend.

Also Alhamdullilah Saeed Anwar didn't board that flight, it's crazy how life turns out for you sometimes for better or worse..

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'oon, very shocked. What made it worse is that this was avoidable and that the goons at PIA won't even be held accountable. Going by the reports, whoever approved the flight despite being told the aircraft wasn't ready should take a long, hard look in the mirror. When so many people depend on your decision making, you can't be this reckless.

Was a legend.

Also Alhamdullilah Saeed Anwar didn't board that flight, it's crazy how life turns out for you sometimes for better or worse..

Here's the thing, nothing will stem from this crash (borderline murder) unfortunately and those responsible will not be held accountable. PIA owns a fleet of ancient aircraft which are rarely maintained, their staff are paid peanuts and the pilots can't even get a damn sandwich! when you add up to the consequences of this incident they'd barely get hit in the pocket. Their business methodology revolves around exploitation and big returns for cheap investments; regardless of how much people hate PIA nothing beats convenience so unless the airline is boycotted completely they will continue to operate in dastardly fashion.

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'oon, very shocked. What made it worse is that this was avoidable and that the goons at PIA won't even be held accountable. Going by the reports, whoever approved the flight despite being told the aircraft wasn't ready should take a long, hard look in the mirror. When so many people depend on your decision making, you can't be this reckless.

Was a legend.

Also Alhamdullilah Saeed Anwar didn't board that flight, it's crazy how life turns out for you sometimes for better or worse..

Don't think so, if foreigners are also amongest the death then im pretty sure their embassies would get a full proper investigation done

I saw a tweet today that showed me me there is still hope for this country. Someone from Abbottabad tweeted anyone who is coming to Abbottabad for dead bodies of their beloved ones can contact me (his number) My house my full help will be with u #PK661

For all the people bashing PIA for using "ancient" aircraft, I would like to add to their knowledge that this aircraft was launched in 2007 and PIA started operating it the very same year.

Yes there might be some incompetent people in PIA but that does not mean that all of PIA is substandard. PIA pilots are some of the best in the business.

We shouldn't forget that Emirates was initially setup by PIA's help and Emirates staff was trained by PIA.

There were MANY issues with the ATR even before PIA bought it. And what made it worse was that PIA started repairing the plane parts itself even after being sent pleadings from the European company (where the ATR's propellers and other equipment and parts came from) that repairs need proper certification and a level of competence. The same plane has also reportedly had issues since 2011, issues which PIA insisted on repairing itself to save money and some of the equipment was so shoddy they finished the job with $40 worth of crap).

There are many scenarios that go wrong before an airplane is downed. Those who have studied in this field would know that the engine of the airplane does not generate lift, the engine provides forward thrust, it is the shape and geometry of the airplane wings that generates lift. However there is a direct relation between thrust and lift. Next time you board a flight see how the plane actually speeds up when coming in to land, however the pilot is altering the shape of the wing by deploying spoilers that reduce the lift and allow the plane to descend.

That being said when one engine blows this puts extra strain on the remaining engine, since now it has to produce twice the amount of forward thrust and has to carry the dead weight of the other engine. This causes the plane to veer towards the side of the dead engine. However, there are measures to counter this too, the pilot can bank the side of the functioning engine and this will cause the plane to have level flight.

As has been mentioned on this thread that the plane was in a collision course with the mountain a case of stall might have crept in as the pilot tried to ascend to avoid the mountain. Stall is when the lift generated by the wings instantaneously goes to zero thus causing the flying object to drop like a rock. Stall occurs when the angle of attack of the plane surpasses the stall angle (in layman terms the angle the plane's nose is making with the horizontal is greater than a pre-set maximum angle that the wings of that specific plane model can handle).

However, it is easy to make such assumptions or assertions while sitting in the comfort of one's lounge, it is a totally different scenario while you are in that actual scenario.

There was a NAT GEO documentary of a downed plane which had flipped over and stalled, the time it took from the point things went south to the crash was about 30 seconds. The investigators inorder to recreate the scenario ran the same situation in a simulator and allowed ten pilots (of similar experience to the downed plane's pilot) to try and save the plane within the same 30 seconds. Lo and behold, every single one of them managed to do it.

There was a NAT GEO documentary of a downed plane which had flipped over and stalled, the time it took from the point things went south to the crash was about 30 seconds. The investigators inorder to recreate the scenario ran the same situation in a simulator and allowed ten pilots (of similar experience to the downed plane's pilot) to try and save the plane within the same 30 seconds. Lo and behold, every single one of them managed to do it.

Obviously. It's because they knew exactly what was going to happen before they entered the simulator. The pilots in the incident didn't have any idea their aircraft was going to misbehave, they were less spontaneous and had a greater reaction time as a result in their actions.

I doubt he meant that they were hoping to fly the plane all the way from Chitral to Islamabad on one functioning engine. He probably meant once the first engine failed, they hoped the other engine would've sufficed for the rest of the flight. As bad as PIA is, the statement is probably being taken out of context.

Silver-tongued seraphim circling the spire...
Gather in the gallery in their best attire...

I doubt he meant that they were hoping to fly the plane all the way from Chitral to Islamabad on one functioning engine. He probably meant once the first engine failed, they hoped the other engine would've sufficed for the rest of the flight. As bad as PIA is, the statement is probably being taken out of context.

There were MANY issues with the ATR even before PIA bought it. And what made it worse was that PIA started repairing the plane parts itself even after being sent pleadings from the European company (where the ATR's propellers and other equipment and parts came from) that repairs need proper certification and a level of competence. The same plane has also reportedly had issues since 2011, issues which PIA insisted on repairing itself to save money and some of the equipment was so shoddy they finished the job with $40 worth of crap).

People hence are absolutely right to bash PIA.

They are capable of magnificent feats. A PIA ATR once got me from Peshawar to Lahore in the same amount of time it takes to fly from Islamabad to London and back(11 hour delay, technical issues in the air, emergency landing in ISB, another 5 hour delay), and this was when they were all less than a year old.

The Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (Pemra) on Thursday issued a show cause notice to a private TV channel, Channel 24, for airing a fake audio clip following the crash of the ill-fated Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flight PK-661.

The Pemra notification reads that the channel reportedly aired screams of the passengers, moments before the crash.

“Audiences expressed their displeasure on it, submitted complaints at the Pemra complaint centre and on the authority's twitter account," added the statement.

The notification went on to say that the audiences “protested over the insensitive display by the channel and demanded action against its irresponsible and unprofessional attitude".

Pemra directed the channel's administration to produce evidence that the alleged audiotape was of the passenger cabin of the ATR aircraft, and in the event it was, to reveal how it was recorded, transported to the channel and under which mechanism, the channel had the confirmation that the tape was authentic.

The notification added further that the act by the channel is in defiance of Pemra laws, particularly the Electronic Media Code of Conduct 2015, claws 3(1), 8(2) and 17.

The regulator ordered the channel to explain its position before the authority before December 15.

There are many scenarios that go wrong before an airplane is downed. Those who have studied in this field would know that the engine of the airplane does not generate lift, the engine provides forward thrust, it is the shape and geometry of the airplane wings that generates lift. However there is a direct relation between thrust and lift. Next time you board a flight see how the plane actually speeds up when coming in to land, however the pilot is altering the shape of the wing by deploying spoilers that reduce the lift and allow the plane to descend.

That being said when one engine blows this puts extra strain on the remaining engine, since now it has to produce twice the amount of forward thrust and has to carry the dead weight of the other engine. This causes the plane to veer towards the side of the dead engine. However, there are measures to counter this too, the pilot can bank the side of the functioning engine and this will cause the plane to have level flight.

As has been mentioned on this thread that the plane was in a collision course with the mountain a case of stall might have crept in as the pilot tried to ascend to avoid the mountain. Stall is when the lift generated by the wings instantaneously goes to zero thus causing the flying object to drop like a rock. Stall occurs when the angle of attack of the plane surpasses the stall angle (in layman terms the angle the plane's nose is making with the horizontal is greater than a pre-set maximum angle that the wings of that specific plane model can handle).

However, it is easy to make such assumptions or assertions while sitting in the comfort of one's lounge, it is a totally different scenario while you are in that actual scenario.

There was a NAT GEO documentary of a downed plane which had flipped over and stalled, the time it took from the point things went south to the crash was about 30 seconds. The investigators inorder to recreate the scenario ran the same situation in a simulator and allowed ten pilots (of similar experience to the downed plane's pilot) to try and save the plane within the same 30 seconds. Lo and behold, every single one of them managed to do it.

Another thing, the turbulence and air density near the mountain may have been beyond the altitude characteristics of the aircraft itself even with two engines; pilot found himself in a very unfortunate situation where the correct approximation of landing distance may not have been possible.

I've read posts where folk seem to think that you're a bad pilot if you can't fly with one engine, especially in those flight conditions right

It is still fresh, this incident, but with time it keeps growing on me. I feel as if in Junaid Jamshed I´ve lost someone very close to him, particularly since it is the month of Rabbi-ul-Awwal, and today is the 12th of it - a month and a day when he used to be a very familiar sight on the Pakistan channels.

I´ve not been too much into music the last 18 months or so, without any particular reasons mind you, but have been listening to "Dil dil Pakistan" and another one of his songs. Just feel it as a way to re-connect with him, and have of course been paying attention to any hamd-o-naat by him that they show on the channels.

"It sounds like you have a great strength of character and strong will" - Ellyse Perry about me.

The district administration and officials at the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences (Pims) said on Monday that they will conduct tests on samples already collected from the crew of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flight PK-661 to check whether they had been drugged.

The statement came after directives from the Aviation Division to exhume bodies of the flight crew to carry out the necessary tests came to light on Monday. On December 7, 2016, a French-built ATR-42, was flying from Chitral to Islamabad when it crashed into a hillside in Havelian, killing all 47 people on board. The victims included singer-turned-preacher Junaid Jamshed, his wife and the Chitral deputy commissioner.

In a letter written by District Health Officer on December 23 to officials at Pims, the officer had requested an autopsy of the two pilots, two flight attendants and one flight officer who were on board flight PK-661. The district health officer had asked for the procedure to ascertain whether the crew had been intoxicated, as required by the investigation board.

The Pims administration, however, denied receiving any written orders to carry out the tests so far. Hospital officials, though, said that they had retained samples from the bodies to carry out the necessary tests.

“It is routine that after every aircraft accident …we have retained samples of all the bodies as a reference and we can run whatsoever tests which the Civil Aviation Authority wishes and there is no need to exhume the bodies at all,” said Professor Dr Javed Akram, the vice chancellor of Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Medical University (SZABMU), on Monday. Pims is an attached hospital of SZABMU.

After the crash in Havelian, and an acute shortage of space in the mortuary at the Ayub Teaching Hospital in Abbottabad, officials had decided to move all 47 bodies to Pims in Islamabad. There, after completing the necessary formalities and taking samples to carry out DNA tests, the bodies had been moved to a cold-storage facility in Rawat.

Deputy Commissioner Mushtaq Ahmad, meanwhile, said on Monday that the letter to exhume bodies of the two pilots, one flight officer and two flight attendants had been withdrawn and that the hospital had been asked to conduct drug tests on samples which the hospital had already taken.

As locals and schoolchildren streamed towards the site where a plane had crashed in the hills of Havelian almost a year ago, the chilly air hung heavy with sadness.

Silence filled the December morning as they prayed for the 48 people who died in the crash — including 42 passengers, five crew and one ground engineer — in Batolni village.

“I was heading home when the plane crashed,” said an eyewitness Abdul Baseer, adding that since they are villagers, they usually head home before the sun sets.

“When I saw the plane pass low over the hills, I immediately became afraid and I thought for a moment what has happened to the plane that it is trying to land in our village,” he said, adding that a few moments later the plane disappeared from his sight soon followed by the news that a plane had crashed on the hills near Batolni.

“As soon as we heard the news, a friend and I rushed to the spot,” Baseer said, adding that they reached the spot after a half-hour hike.

“What we saw there was nothing short of scenes from hell,” he recounted, adding that the entire area was ablaze with plane parts strewn all over the hillside.

Soon after the crash, dozens of locals from villages around the crash site rushed to the spot. They said that a year after the incident, the sight of the plane plunging into the hillside was still fresh in their minds.

“It is our tradition to rush to the scene of any accident to offer aid,” said one villager while explaining the immediate response of locals.

Gul Khan, a resident of Langra village, near the crash site, said that the plane had crashed nose-first, which meant that most of the bodies were in the fore section of the aircraft.

“The flames emanating from the aircraft scared me,” said Feroze Khan, who lives in the nearby village of Philwari.

He added that before crashing, the plane had circled the hill at least once.

“It seems as if the pilot had spotted a barren field at the foot of the hill and wanted to land the plane there,” Feroze said, adding that as the plane came around for a second pass, it was already on fire.

Sher Afzal Khan, a wizened native, termed the crash as the worst incident in the area’s history, adding that locals have been unable to forget it.

“I still remember pulling out the bodies, it was an apocalyptic scene.”

Chacha Yousaf, an elder who lives in Batloni village, recalled how the plane had passed low over his house.

“There were screams coming from inside the plane,” he claimed.

However, some commended the pilot of the plane for avoiding any populated areas, lest the crash toll rose.

The pilot manoeuvred away from densely populated areas in Havelian and was successful in his attempt,” said social worker Imtiaz Khan.

He added that on the other side of the hill the plane crashed in, there is a dam with deep water, perhaps the pilot was aiming for that to avoid on-ground casualties.

One local was particularly upset over the death of singer Junaid Jamshed in the crash.

RAWALPINDI/KARACHI: The Safety Investigation Board (SIB) tasked with a probe into the 2016 crash of a domestic flight that killed all the 47 people on board, including singer-turned-evangelist Junaid Jamshed, has found a ‘lapse’ on the part of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) and a ‘lack of oversight’ by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) that may have led to the tragic incident.

On Dec 7, 2016, PIA aircraft ATR42-500 (PK-661) en route to Islamabad from Chitral had crashed into the mountains near Havelian tehsil of Abbottabad.

“The investigation is nearing a concluding stage, however, some important findings of technical nature require immediate attention/intervention,” said the one-page preliminary report of the SIB.

The SIB, an independent body that comes under the aviation division, has shared its report with the CAA and PIA.

PIA spokesman Mashood Tajwar told Dawn that the SIB’s findings were not a full report on the air crash but initial recommendations. He said: “The SIB’s suggestions will be followed and a reply will be submitted by the airlines.”

The SIB report said that the sequence of events began with dislodging of one blade of power turbine stage-1, inside engine-1 (left side engine), due to fatigue. This dislodging of one blade resulted in an in-flight engine shutdown and it contributed towards erratic/ abnormal behaviour of No 1 propeller.

According to the service bulletin, these turbine blades were to be changed after completion of 10,000 hours (of use) on next immediate maintenance opportunity. The said engine was under maintenance on Nov 11, 2016 and at that time these blades had completed 10,004.1 hours (of use) and were due for a change. This activity should have been undertaken at that time, but it was missed out by those concerned, the SIB report said.

According to it, the aircraft flew approximately 93 hours after the said maintenance activity before it crashed.

“Missing out of such an activity highlights a lapse on the part of PIAC (maintenance and quality assurance) and a possible inadequacy/lack of oversight by the CAA,” it said.

“The PIAC should ensure immediate implementation of the service bulletin in letter and spirit on the entire fleet of ATR aircraft, undertake an audit of the related areas of maintenance practices, ascertain root causes for the said lapse, and adopt appropriate corrective measures to avoid recurrence of such incidents,” the SIB recommended.

It suggested that the PIA should evaluate its oversight mechanism for its adequacy to discover lapses and intervene in a proactive manner, ascertain shortfall and undertake necessary improvements.

A senior official of the CAA said that the authority would give its view on the SIB report in a few days after reviewing it.