My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.

I bought a bottle of aspirin. Turns out the bottle functioned. It wasn't fun, but it worked. Then again, the bottle of aspirin wasn't advertised as a game. My point being; just because it works, that doesn't mean it's a fun way to spend my time.

And just because you don't find any fun in something doesn't mean others don't.

Weren't you deleting your account?

I must say to see your constant complaints about being rated down and "karma camped" it's pretty obvious you have people (friends, forum "buddies" and LS members) who rate up your posts regardless of their merit or validity.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 7:02pm by Sasorex

I have rated him up in the past because he has generally offered a positive contribution to the community, and I agree with a lot of his points at times even it it isn't shared by the majority of posters in a particular thread. Just for the record, i'm not his friend, an LS member, or a sock account if you're implying he has sock accounts rating himself up with >.>.

Don't get me wrong I don't think this thread is necessary, and I can best offer him the advice of stepping back, take a break from the forums, and just concentrate on playing the game. I appreciate what you've done doctor, and I look forward to any videos you may produce in the future, but I say take a break from here since you've obviously become a pretty big target for people.

No, if the forum community of a game could destroy it, WoW would've died the same month it launched.

If there are problems in the game, it is the right and DUTY of a player to openly discuss them so they get fixed. Find my thread in this forum about how the retainer wards are now working as intended. It started off bad, SE added improvements and now, surprise, they're working better than ever (most still feel we need an AH, and I can't entirely disagree with them, but I don't mind the wards as they are now).

What exactly do you think forums are FOR? To sit around and discuss how relentlessly wonderful the game is, even when there are huge flaws?

There's something you need to realize, because you seem to have a hard time grasping this: "New player" does not equal "total drooling idiot".

People are going to play this game on their own, figure things out on their own and come to their OWN conclusions, and no amount of saying "Yay! FFXIV is teh awesum!" is going to change the opinions they form on the game after playing it.

So why don't you do everyone a favor and put in your OWN 2¢ about what you think could be fixed about this game? I have EVERY reason to believe that SE reads these forums (they've said so in the past, though I can't find it now) and if you truly love this game, use the experience you have getting to level 50 to help SE understand how they can make it better.

This game has potential, but that potential can only ever be realized if we give SE the honest, direct feedback they need to whip it into the best game it can possibly be.

My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.

I bought a bottle of aspirin. Turns out the bottle functioned. It wasn't fun, but it worked. Then again, the bottle of aspirin wasn't advertised as a game. My point being; just because it works, that doesn't mean it's a fun way to spend my time.

And just because you don't find any fun in something doesn't mean others don't.

Weren't you deleting your account?

I must say to see your constant complaints about being rated down and "karma camped" it's pretty obvious you have people (friends, forum "buddies" and LS members) who rate up your posts regardless of their merit or validity.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 7:02pm by Sasorex

I have rated him up in the past because he has generally offered a positive contribution to the community, and I agree with a lot of his points at times even it it isn't shared by the majority of posters in a particular thread. Just for the record, i'm not his friend, an LS member, or a sock account if you're implying he has sock accounts rating himself up with >.>.

Don't get me wrong I don't think this thread is necessary, and I can best offer him the advice of stepping back, take a break from the forums, and just concentrate on playing the game. I appreciate what you've done doctor, and I look forward to any videos you may produce in the future, but I say take a break from here since you've obviously become a pretty big target for people.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:38pm by Ipwnrice

Although I tend to disagree with the majority of DoctorMog's posts and especially his attitude, I certainly do not think he was rating his own posts up with a sock account nor was I trying to imply that.

I simply meant that for as much complaining about the negative "karma camping" he has received there is quite clearly a lot of positive "karma camping" going on as well.

If you guys were allocating your stats correctly in the first place, when you switch jobs you wouldn't have the issues you are all complaining of.

I'm calling this thread out. The idea of removing the FLEXIBILITY of the system is a stupid, and very ill informed idea.

So, lets expand on this a bit instead of me just calling you all morons.

Imagine the game with no stat reallocation.

You now have FFXI.

Congrats.

FYI, that's the same as calling people morons.

And then you posted the video with your snarky comment of "Because SOME people just don't seem to get it!"

And THEN I said you were acting like a condescending jerk. I can't sugarcoat that, but I will say that it's possible to STOP being a jerk (which is a behavioral attribute) whereas if you're going to call us "morons" and "dense" (which you also did in that thread), it implies that we're simply too dumb to understand your opinion which is, again, acting like a condescending jerk.

Stop being rude to people and they'll stop rating your posts down. Simple as that.

If you stumble in to a thread where you think that you aren't going to change anyone's mind, sometimes it's best to not try. All you end up with in the end is 2-5 pages of arguing, frustration, and annoyance, and nothing to show for it but +1s and rate downs.

I thought it was...

"If you stumble on a thread where you don't think you'll have an impact, make your own thread with a poll"... ^.~

Shhh... That's -my- tactic. You cannot have it.

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

Although I tend to disagree with the majority of DoctorMog's posts and especially his attitude, I certainly do not think he was rating his own posts up with a sock account nor was I trying to imply that.

I simply meant that for as much complaining about the negative "karma camping" he has received there is quite clearly a lot of positive "karma camping" going on as well.

That's one of the funny things about karma...

If you complain about not getting rated up, you get rated down. If you complain about getting rated down, you get rated down more. If you complain that you're getting karma camped, you get rated up AND rated down. If you complain about multiple people getting karma camped, then everyone gets rated up.

Karma, she is a fickle beast.

Now the question is... am I going to get rated up for explaining karma, or am I going to get rated down because I mentioned it? Or am I going to get rated up in anticipation of ratedowns I will get? Or will I get rated down because people think I'm fishing for rate ups by subtly implying I might get rated down? Or will I get rated up because people will... oh **** it.

Rate sideways. It's the solution to everything.

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

Now the question is... am I going to get rated up for explaining karma, or am I going to get rated down because I mentioned it? Or am I going to get rated up in anticipation of ratedowns I will get? Or will I get rated down because people think I'm fishing for rate ups by subtly implying I might get rated down? Or will I get rated up because people will... oh @#%^ it.

Rate sideways. It's the solution to everything.

"What'll really bake your noodle later is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

There's something you need to realize, because you seem to have a hard time grasping this: "New player" does not equal "total drooling idiot".

People are going to play this game on their own, figure things out on their own and come to their OWN conclusions, and no amount of saying "Yay! FFXIV is teh awesum!" is going to change the opinions they form on the game after playing it.

Sorry, but this is the point that DoctorMog was making: there are people who assume (insist?) that new players will reach the conclusion that the game is not worth playing. Your quote surely assumes that players will reach that conclusion. It's DoctorMog's opinion that there are those on this forum who want to give SE the impression that few players enjoy the game and who also insist that enjoying the game sends SE the wrong message. I cannot fault him for this opinion.

Also, I wonder how much attention SE gives to these forums. Sure, a lot of opinions are thrown about, but it is impossible to determine how well they represent the population as a whole. If the game's detractors are a minority, it would be foolish for SE to satisfy their demands. My guess it that these forums are taken with a grain of salt.

Game forums are best experienced with a tub of popcorn and a calculator at hand. If you can't refute the math (or can't understand it), then it's just as entertaining to pretend it's a movie.

Be helpful. Helpful is always a good thing, wins admirers, makes enemies gnash their teeth. Those that need help will find you and love you, particularly if you're good at the aforementioned math. Still, never confuse opinion for fact. If it's not provable with a calculator, it's opinion, and everyone has one.

Nope, if only they added everything that is standard with every other forums out there. I find it silly people would pay for an avatar and the ability to post pics XD

I pay to support the site because I've been using it since 2004 and I think the Admins are generally cool people who deserve a paycheck.

I'll admit I used to use adblock, but I've taken to whitelisting some of my favorite sites that I don't want paid accounts on. I don't like ads, but I don't like hurting the sites I frequent either. My posts take up space on their servers, cost them bandwidth, the least I can do is slip em a few bucks for saying "Thanks for being cool and sh*t."

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

Game forums are best experienced with a tub of popcorn and a calculator at hand. If you can't refute the math (or can't understand it), then it's just as entertaining to pretend it's a movie.

Be helpful. Helpful is always a good thing, wins admirers, makes enemies gnash their teeth. Those that need help will find you and love you, particularly if you're good at the aforementioned math. Still, never confuse opinion for fact. If it's not provable with a calculator, it's opinion, and everyone has one.

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand what you're commenting on given that you quoted me? All I was saying is that it'd be hard for SE to take away what people like about the game at the moment, given that all there is to do is level to 50 then fight some mobs that are a shadow of endgame content.

Note: I had to Google ArenaNet. They made Guild Wars? I've honestly never played it. But even if there aren't "levels," there obviously is some progression system, no? I'm not saying there isn't. Genuinely asking to be educated here.

Sorry, but this is the point that DoctorMog was making: there are people who assume (insist?) that new players will reach the conclusion that the game is not worth playing. Your quote surely assumes that players will reach that conclusion. It's DoctorMog's opinion that there are those on this forum who want to give SE the impression that few players enjoy the game and who also insist that enjoying the game sends SE the wrong message. I cannot fault him for this opinion.

1. Where in that post did I say that new players are GOING to come to that conclusion? I said they're going to draw their own conclusions, so lying to them on these forums and saying "Everything is fine!" when SE itself is saying otherwise is more than a bit dishonest.

2. If Blizzard took their own forums as gospel, the entire staff of Blizzard Entertainment would've shut the company down, gone home and hung themselves before the game even released because the forums were already that bad in BETA. SE isn't some shy little girl who is going to run away crying at all of the mean people saying unkind things. They're a very large game developer and publisher who has admitted that they launched the game too soon and is now trying to fix it, and they've asked for our help in doing so.

Quote:

Also, I wonder how much attention SE gives to these forums. Sure, a lot of opinions are thrown about, but it is impossible to determine how well they represent the population as a whole. If the game's detractors are a minority, it would be foolish for SE to satisfy their demands. My guess it that these forums are taken with a grain of salt.

They listen because I've seen requested changes here show up in game and they wound up being changes for the better. Take that as you will.

I have EVERY reason to believe that SE reads these forums (they've said so in the past, though I can't find it now) and if you truly love this game, use the experience you have getting to level 50 to help SE understand how they can make it better.

People keep saying this but I sincerely doubt a majority of the people who do post their constructive ideas where they should be.

Use this forum for specific feedback and suggestions to the developer, not the players. This forum will be monitored by the game developers. To keep out general discussion and keep the true feedback from scrolling too quickly, it will be more heavily moderated than our other forums.

Quote:

They listen because I've seen requested changes here show up in game and they wound up being changes for the better. Take that as you will.

If it's not in the feedback forum and hasn't been sent in an official feedback form, I'd just call it a really lucky coincidence.

Not directed at anyone in particular, but I hear a lot of talk about "well I bought the game so I have the right to voice my opinion!!" and that's perfectly good. I agree, having spent money for the collector's edition, standard edition, etc. that we deserve to be heard if we are dissatisfied. There's also a lot more constructive criticism and discussion as of late. Having said that however, there's still an abundance of people on these forums who say they need to be heard but sound more like they're frothing at the mouth with pitchforks rather than being constructive about what they are dissatisfied with, let alone what would be a good alternative or suggestion to modify aspects of the game.

To simply address the original theme of this topic. This game failing because of the forum community? I highly doubt it. However, I believe the resources we have been given (official feedback forms and the feedback forum) are not being utilized as well as they should be, and if anything is making it harder for SE to know what the players want (assuming they do read the feedback forum and feedback forms).

I think OP's very right and very wrong all at the same time. The FFXIV community has been a pretty big letdown so far. Where a lot of people remember a great community in XI that helped make up for the game's downsides, in XIV the community pretty much makes dealing with a struggling game even worse.

Anyway, up to a point I like what you're doing DoctorMog. Because you're being a gamer. Fitting with my old-school opinion of gamers who, when faced with hurdles, found ways past them. Now we just **** & moan and ask for the hurdles to be lowered or moved altogether. While the majority is trolling, fighting & whining on here, you offer solutions to help play the game as it currently is. That's excellent & even with the best intentions will probably be met with occasional rate-downs and hate anyway. Gotta let those go...

But where I think you're getting it wrong is taking it beyond being helpful and into the realm of "You idiots are all doing it wrong!!" No one wants to hear that kinda stuff. Even though in some cases you may be right about stubborn players failing to give the game a chance, going about it this way(especially when the name-calling starts and things get childish) is just asking for more rate-downs.

this post alone will let everyone see it rate you down, your acting like a 10 year old kid.

why do you care that much about rating? every time i read one of your posts you talk about how people rate you down.

if you care that much about the rating system, then say your opinion and dont force it on others or haters will rate you down, what you are doing is saying your opinion and then try to force it on the ones that disagree with you.

1. Where in that post did I say that new players are GOING to come to that conclusion? I said they're going to draw their own conclusions, so lying to them on these forums and saying "Everything is fine!" when SE itself is saying otherwise is more than a bit dishonest.

I quoted the passage but you chose not to include it in your reply. What that says I cannot say for certain. But, to say that DoctorMog says that everything in the game is fine is dishonest on your part. It is his opinion that fun can be had in the game. Nothing wrong with that. Why misrepresent his opinion?

He's saying that all the negativity outside the feedback page is counter productive. He's saying that a person considering the game might be pushed away before they have a chance to decide for themselves.

Quote:

They listen because I've seen requested changes here show up in game and they wound up being changes for the better. Take that as you will.

Sorry, but just because things mentioned on the general forums happen to show up in game doesn't mean that SE reads the general forums rather than the feedback forum, but someone has already made this point.

I understand your point about the community being too negative. But at the end of the day it is the game that is making the community negative. If the game was good, even mediocre I think the majority of us would be happy as a clam.

Here's the thing, this game didn't get unanimous poor ratings, and reviews just because "ppl wanna be haterz". They didn't fire the old dev team and replace them for ***** and giggles. The game is not a good game, and since we're all big Final Fantasy fans, we get ****** about it.

Anyway, up to a point I like what you're doing DoctorMog. Because you're being a gamer. Fitting with my old-school opinion of gamers who, when faced with hurdles, found ways past them. Now we just **** & moan and ask for the hurdles to be lowered or moved altogether.

To this point: I still strongly feel that games -should- have hurdles to overcome. Removing the hurdles so that "everyone is a winner" just makes winning feel like less of an accomplishment. What's the point of a gold medal if they give everyone a gold medal? What's the purpose of a trophy if everyone gets a trophy? I remember an age when "I beat the game" was something that not everyone could do; something you could be proud of. People would talk to each other and ask for help on parts they couldn't get past; there was always a cameraderie of "Yeah, it took me like 5 tries to beat the Lizard King!" "Five? It took me like ten!". Nowadays, it seems like whenever someone can't beat the game, it's never "I'm not doing good enough; I have to try harder so I can beat it" and always "This game is too hard, it needs to be easier so that I can beat it." The gaming industry has gone from one where players push themselves to clear the hurdles to one where players expect the hurdles to be lowered to six inches high, and each hurdle should award them with an achievement.

Honestly, I can't respect a game until it ****** me off enough to the point that I'm literally screaming at it when I finally overcome an obstacle. My favorite games were nearly always the ones that turned me into the furious little cinnamon bun in flesh incarnate. Sure, they're frustratingly difficult, but when you finally beat them, it makes it so worth it.

I know this is going to queue someone arguing about how "Games that can't be beaten are poor design" or "Every game should be beatable by anyone" or "The mere act of buying a game entitles you to the right to accomplish everything it has to offer"... Perhaps that's debatable, but I've had this argument before; this is the way I feel and if someone wants to say they disagree then they can save themselves time by just saying "I respectfully disagree with you" and I'll say "Okay" and move on, because I really don't want to go into a point by point argument over this across five pages. I just don't.

Suggested playing: Battletoads, The Immortal, Ninja Gaiden, Contra, Silver Surfer. All NES (except for Immortal, which was also on Genesis as well). One directional pad. A, B, select, start. That's only four buttons. Go wild.

Bonus round: I wanna be the guy. (Granted, this game was intentionally designed to be unnecessarily hard for the same of being unnecessarily hard, but there you have it.

Honestly, I'd rather even have fake difficulty (Warning: If you click that link, you can kiss the next five hours of your life goodbye) in a game that has a good control system than a straightforward game that kills me because I can't make it do what I want it to.

No -good- player is going to object to a challenging game, provided the challenge is in the game's content, not in the game's design.

FFXIV is the QWOP of MMORPGs.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 10:37pm by Mikhalia

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.

I bought a bottle of aspirin. Turns out the bottle functioned. It wasn't fun, but it worked. Then again, the bottle of aspirin wasn't advertised as a game. My point being; just because it works, that doesn't mean it's a fun way to spend my time.

That may have been the worst attempt at an analogy that I have ever seen. :P

Here's the thing, this game didn't get unanimous poor ratings, and reviews just because "ppl wanna be haterz". They didn't fire the old dev team and replace them for sh*tz and giggles. The game is not a good game, and since we're all big Final Fantasy fans, we get ****** about it.

Yes, that is understandable, but some of the posters on this forum are taking the poor state of the game personally. I liken it to a buyer of a defective product who refuses to send the product in for repairs and then complains that it's not fixed.

Anyway, up to a point I like what you're doing DoctorMog. Because you're being a gamer. Fitting with my old-school opinion of gamers who, when faced with hurdles, found ways past them. Now we just **** & moan and ask for the hurdles to be lowered or moved altogether.

To this point: I still strongly feel that games -should- have hurdles to overcome. Removing the hurdles so that "everyone is a winner" just makes winning feel like less of an accomplishment. What's the point of a gold medal if they give everyone a gold medal? What's the purpose of a trophy if everyone gets a trophy? I remember an age when "I beat the game" was something that not everyone could do; something you could be proud of. People would talk to each other and ask for help on parts they couldn't get past; there was always a cameraderie of "Yeah, it took me like 5 tries to beat the Lizard King!" "Five? It took me like ten!". Nowadays, it seems like whenever someone can't beat the game, it's never "I'm not doing good enough; I have to try harder so I can beat it" and always "This game is too hard, it needs to be easier so that I can beat it." The gaming industry has gone from one where players push themselves to clear the hurdles to one where players expect the hurdles to be lowered to six inches high, and each hurdle should award them with an achievement.

Honestly, I can't respect a game until it ****** me off enough to the point that I'm literally screaming at it when I finally overcome an obstacle. My favorite games were nearly always the ones that turned me into the furious little cinnamon bun in flesh incarnate. Sure, they're frustratingly difficult, but when you finally beat them, it makes it so worth it.

I know this is going to queue someone arguing about how "Games that can't be beaten are poor design" or "Every game should be beatable by anyone" or "The mere act of buying a game entitles you to the right to accomplish everything it has to offer"... Perhaps that's debatable, but I've had this argument before; this is the way I feel and if someone wants to say they disagree then they can save themselves time by just saying "I respectfully disagree with you" and I'll say "Okay" and move on, because I really don't want to go into a point by point argument over this across five pages. I just don't.

Suggested playing: Battletoads, The Immortal, Ninja Gaiden, Contra, Silver Surfer. All NES (except for Immortal, which was also on Genesis as well). One directional pad. A, B, select, start. That's only four buttons. Go wild.

Bonus round: I wanna be the guy. (Granted, this game was intentionally designed to be unnecessarily hard for the same of being unnecessarily hard, but there you have it.

Honestly, I'd rather even have fake difficulty (Warning: If you click that link, you can kiss the next five hours of your life goodbye) in a game that has a good control system than a straightforward game that kills me because I can't make it do what I want it to.

No -good- player is going to object to a challenging game, provided the challenge is in the game's content, not in the game's design.

FFXIV is the QWOP of MMORPGs.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 10:37pm by Mikhalia

While writing that line I was wondering if someone would pick that out and then relate it back to FFXIV. Totally agree with ya there, but for the sake of clarification...

I was using that statement to kinda generalize how the majority of gamers act these days. Definitely not to say that a lot of the complaints about XIV aren't warranted. In the case of the OP, I commend him for taking what he's been given and making the most of it. But I don't agree with the "I'm making it work and having fun, therefore everything's fine and people are doing it wrong" position that, intended or not, comes across...

This game will not fail, in fact I think it's going to be the next big MMO. If the numbers are accurate and 600,000 people bought the game and now 60 to 100,000 are still playing it, I feel that is a strong indication that the game will be a massive success, contrary to what numbers like that may indicate on the surface.

The people who found fault with the game were very vocal about it, and they have stopped playing and moved on. The negative wave of press and message board hate has also reached its peak and faded out.

The people still playing the game are the ones who will continue to be vocal now and in the coming months leading up to the ps3 launch, which represents the console gaming market that absolutley dwarfs its PC counterpart in potential subscriptions(not many are willing to spend on upgrading, Ps3 owners have no such snag). Anyone who is still playing is most likely a White Knight for the game. I know I am, I love this game and I only see potential. The supporters of the game will outlast and have more of an effect on success than any remaining naysayers "Alternative Media" or otherwise. Ours is the voice that will be heard going forward, not the haters.

Consider the ease of getting the game installed and running on a Ps3 compared to the wide scale nightmare that so many unfortunate underpowered PC owners apparently endured. Buy the game, install, update, play.

This game was designed from the ground up for the Ps3, not PC, and PC paid the price of being the Final Beta testers.

To be an OG pimp-like character in the game upon Ps3 release is a small price to pay, I suppose.

Sorry Seph, I was more than normally unclear. And I certainly have had my garbled moments!

The first part was a quip against your comment, that maybe it doesn't have to be that way. The second part was actually directed to DocMog, the OP, but that may not have been apparent.

But to expand, if not to make clear: I quoted that snip of text because it said something to me, about this game and others I've played. Everyone gripes about "the grind" like it's an immutable fact of gaming existence, unchangeable and immovable like some big mountain you always have to climb over. It's particularly acute when people discuss MMO's. Sort of like getting married to the greatest gal in the world and bravely swallowing the fact that she comes with in-laws that are going to immediately move into the basement.

What IS grind? It's doing stuff over and over and over (and over and over and over) again that you really don't much care for, but you have to do anyways in order to get to something you would really prefer to be doing. Like getting attuned for a raid, or needing a particular set of gear in order to compete against a certain game mechanic (read: boss) or needing your crafting some arbitrary level in order to make that dye you need to get your belt the right color. Anything that is a time-sink without giving you a good experience while you do it is "a grind".

Now, I've never played FFXI. I barely touched Guild War The First, let alone any of the expansions. But ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2 gives me hope that this thing called "grind" might finally be acknowledged as a relic of that past. I've been disappointed before, of course, most recently by FFXIV so I'm not sure I can embrace or even fully believe half the things I read about the game. But since you called me on it, I'll say yeah, I'm going to put my chips on ArenaNet the next time and hopefully the roulette wheel lands on the black.

I encourage you to watch the introductory vid at the GW2 site and tell us what you think.

FFXIV has some really good ideas in its game mechanic, but they're so buried under the weight of existing convention that they're smothered. The intricacies of crafting (and its supporting gathering professions) are amazing, I'm sincerely and utterly impressed by the thought and execution of it. There's enough number crunching in that area alone to keep a mountain of happy monkeys with calculators busy for a year. The cross-use of combat abilities is really nicely done, if not exactly ground-breaking. But then Square gave us nothing needing it and really, no reason to do anything except to "get levels".

And this is where Mog's part comes in... because games are built by developers, but gamers make them alive. Sort of like them being Doc Frankenstein but us, baby, we're the switch. It might be designed to terrorise the known world but without that spark, it's just gonna lay on the table.

Gamers on a forum can be at knife point with each other, and that's exactly what's required. Because the game is alive and people are passionate about it and willing to stomp all contenders in the race for supremacy. Active, noisy, boisterous, pains in the asses, all of 'em and that's what makes a game interesting to somebody who bought it, logged in and only then went looking for information. FFXIV will or will not fail for a lot of reasons but the moment people stop arguing about it, it's dead, Jim.

I think the big issue is that people sometimes approach the issue of grinding the wrong way. So many people think that the problem is that grinding needs to be removed because they don't enjoy it, but this isn't a valid solution because unless there is a grind, the game will have a very short life. MMORPGs exist and thrive on the idea that they require people to keep playing for months, even years. If you can accomplish all a game has to offer in 2-4 months, the game won't last long.

No, the grind has to stay like a house needs walls or grass needs dirt.

The solution is to do something to make the grind fun. Grinds suck when they're doing the same boring repetitive task you don't want to do over and over. Make them not suck by making them a fun task that people -will- want to do over and over.

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

I quoted the passage but you chose not to include it in your reply. What that says I cannot say for certain. But, to say that DoctorMog says that everything in the game is fine is dishonest on your part. It is his opinion that fun can be had in the game. Nothing wrong with that. Why misrepresent his opinion?

There are some terribad quotes from the other thread, one like this:

DoctorMog wrote:

If anyone wants to come to a forum where people are enjoying this game, and are working to improve the knowledge of the game and community;

you are welcome to come to my LS site:

People who think they know how to make the game better can just sit out. Otherwise you would be working for a game company already, wouldn't you?

No, it's going FAR beyond simply not wanting for new players to see the negativity (which is STILL dishonest, IMO).

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He's saying that all the negativity outside the feedback page is counter productive. He's saying that a person considering the game might be pushed away before they have a chance to decide for themselves.

If you read the WoW forums, you would immediately draw the conclusion that NO ONE plays the game and everyone hates it, yet this is far from the case. New players coming to this forum will be turned away by negativity because SE launched an incomplete game that unfortunately WARRANTS negativity.

Again, SE ITSELF has said this. They have APOLOGIZED numerous times and even ripped the original director out of the driver's seat and replaced him because the job he did was so terrible. There is nothing a newer player is going to glean from this forum that they couldn't ALREADY glean from SE's own apologies.

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Sorry, but just because things mentioned on the general forums happen to show up in game doesn't mean that SE reads the general forums rather than the feedback forum, but someone has already made this point.

I will happily and continually slay the same kind of monster in the same area and have a great time doing it... because I'm enjoying the fact that I'm practicing a skill that will make me, well, maybe not amazing later but will give me a sense of undeniable satisfaction when I can whip it out (grin) and Save The Day.

It's not a grind. It's like shooting hoops so that when I really need it, I won't have to think about it. A game that can give me that is the game I want to be playing. I think Kachi posted in another thread about the types of goals that gamers set, whether they are competing for ranking against others (which requires an active community in order to be ranked among) or acquiring skill for the sake of it and the personal glow of accomplishment it brings.

FFXIV really doesn't have the first because there's no bragging rights (ie, no really difficult content) other than sheer perseverance and without a benchmark, it's hard to have a personal interest in character progression.

This game will not fail, in fact I think it's going to be the next big MMO. If the numbers are accurate and 600,000 people bought the game and now 60 to 100,000 are still playing it, I feel that is a strong indication that the game will be a massive success, contrary to what numbers like that may indicate on the surface.

The people who found fault with the game were very vocal about it, and they have stopped playing and moved on. The negative wave of press and message board hate has also reached its peak and faded out.

The people still playing the game are the ones who will continue to be vocal now and in the coming months leading up to the ps3 launch, which represents the console gaming market that absolutley dwarfs its PC counterpart in potential subscriptions(not many are willing to spend on upgrading, Ps3 owners have no such snag). Anyone who is still playing is most likely a White Knight for the game. I know I am, I love this game and I only see potential. The supporters of the game will outlast and have more of an effect on success than any remaining naysayers "Alternative Media" or otherwise. Ours is the voice that will be heard going forward, not the haters.

Consider the ease of getting the game installed and running on a Ps3 compared to the wide scale nightmare that so many unfortunate underpowered PC owners apparently endured. Buy the game, install, update, play.

This game was designed from the ground up for the Ps3, not PC, and PC paid the price of being the Final Beta testers.

To be an OG pimp-like character in the game upon Ps3 release is a small price to pay, I suppose.

Now cough it up, and love it.

Your optimism is charming. I disagree with you pretty much categorically and I kinda wonder what you're huffin, but I can't fault your faith. I hope I'm wrong.

Sorry, but just because things mentioned on the general forums happen to show up in game doesn't mean that SE reads the general forums rather than the feedback forum, but someone has already made this point.

I would think they'd read both, or a representative would read both.

Setting aside all "FFXI/XIV vs WoW" arguments for a second, this is one thing I wish SE would take from Blizzard:

Host your own forums for the game, moderate them however you want, and (most important part): Let SE employees post on the forum.

IMO, the fact that Blizzard has people posting on their own forum to communicate directly with players beyond patch notes and update details is a huge boon to the success of their game. Sure, you won't see every post heard, but it's nice to have a thread where someone from the company pops in and says "Hey, we're actually working on this feature right now guys; expect to see it in next month's update!" Or even a "We've taken these ideas into consideration, but we don't think they're feasible to implement in the game, and here's why..."

SE is taking a lot of steps towards opening up communication beyond what they had in XI. It's better than the one way communication of FFXI, but it's not quite a two way street yet. SE is showing us that they -are- listening, but I'd love to see them go just that one more step.

Do I think they will? No; I accept that this is probably an unreachable pipe dream. But a boy can dream, can't he?

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

If you must be a wuss and chicken out, I suggest this instead. The walkthrough is 4 1/4 hours long, but the game is really well done in terms of story, and the person playing the game is entertaining to listen to, if you don't mind a lot of swearing at some of the more scary parts.

If nothing else, it would make a great movie, if trimmed down.

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[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig] Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny. Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap. Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap... Mikhalia: Sounds about right.

Sorry, but just because things mentioned on the general forums happen to show up in game doesn't mean that SE reads the general forums rather than the feedback forum, but someone has already made this point.

I would think they'd read both, or a representative would read both.

Setting aside all "FFXI/XIV vs WoW" arguments for a second, this is one thing I wish SE would take from Blizzard:

Host your own forums for the game, moderate them however you want, and (most important part): Let SE employees post on the forum.

Well there was certainly an option for this on the poll (which I quickly checked since I'd love an official forum), but I have a gut feeling people were too busy looking for the "add an AH" option on the poll to notice.

Here's the thing, this game didn't get unanimous poor ratings, and reviews just because "ppl wanna be haterz". They didn't fire the old dev team and replace them for sh*tz and giggles. The game is not a good game, and since we're all big Final Fantasy fans, we get ****** about it.

Yes, that is understandable, but some of the posters on this forum are taking the poor state of the game personally. I liken it to a buyer of a defective product who refuses to send the product in for repairs and then complains that it's not fixed.

Well, normally when you buy a defective product you can send it in for repair, replace, or refund. But when it comes to software you are stuck with it. So that feeling of being screwed up the rear makes everything worse.

In the beginning I went a tad overboard with my negativity about the game. But the last month or so I have really eased off, and more willing to just wait, and hope they can pull it out.

If anyone wants to come to a forum where people are enjoying this game, and are working to improve the knowledge of the game and community;

you are welcome to come to my LS site:

People who think they know how to make the game better can just sit out. Otherwise you would be working for a game company already, wouldn't you?

No, it's going FAR beyond simply not wanting for new players to see the negativity (which is STILL dishonest, IMO).

I'll admit that the post is a bit curt, but he thinks these forums are all about negativity and little positive is allowed. He didn't have to reply in such a way, but I'm not DoctorMog and don't know his frustration.

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If you read the WoW forums, you would immediately draw the conclusion that NO ONE plays the game and everyone hates it, yet this is far from the case. New players coming to this forum will be turned away by negativity because SE launched an incomplete game that unfortunately WARRANTS negativity.

Actually, I found the WoW forums helpful. Players aren't discouraged from trying to help others with the game. DoctorMog is saying, and I, too, lean in the direction, that your negativity doesn't speak for all--that positive threads shouldn't be discouraged. If they are, are you and the other negative posters helping make prospective players' minds up for them?

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There is nothing a newer player is going to glean from this forum that they couldn't ALREADY glean from SE's own apologies.

SE is taking a lot of steps towards opening up communication beyond what they had in XI. It's better than the one way communication of FFXI, but it's not quite a two way street yet. SE is showing us that they -are- listening, but I'd love to see them go just that one more step.

Do I think they will? No; I accept that this is probably an unreachable pipe dream. But a boy can dream, can't he?

Sadly, SE got nothing short of abused when they tried to post here on ZAM a few years back on the XI =10 forum. The account was instantly sub-defaulted and trolled into oblivion. I do think it would be neat for them to at least have a small forum that was heavily moderated where folks could post their suggestions and feedback. Though, from a business stand point I can understand just lurking fansites instead. One less way for them to hurt someones feelings.

It would be nice if ZAM gave SE a few unratable accounts, but that still wouldn't control the trolling.

Not directed at anyone in particular, but I hear a lot of talk about "well I bought the game so I have the right to voice my opinion!!" and that's perfectly good. I agree, having spent money for the collector's edition, standard edition, etc. that we deserve to be heard if we are dissatisfied. There's also a lot more constructive criticism and discussion as of late. Having said that however, there's still an abundance of people on these forums who say they need to be heard but sound more like they're frothing at the mouth with pitchforks rather than being constructive about what they are dissatisfied with, let alone what would be a good alternative or suggestion to modify aspects of the game.

110% this. I am in no way opposed to criticism of a game that is struggling. Nor am I opposed to productive discussion about what direction things could head in order to realize a general improvement in the game. That being said, I think we as forum posters have a rather over-inflated opinion of ourselves and the credence which SE places in our postings. Somehow in our own minds we twisted the change of management at SE and their plans for a new direction for the game into vindication for all the ranting, raving, ********* moaning, and "frothing at the mouth" that was done in the months preceding the change. "See, SE is changing the we game!!! We did that!!! ***** moar guys!!! They're hearing us!!!" I'm sorry, but "This game sux. I quit" did not generate a management overhaul at Square Enix headquarters. What did generate it, however, was well thought out, properly-constructed feedback submitted through the proper channels. Let's not lie to ourselves. Complaining about this, that, or the other in the general forums will do nothing but frustrate us and each other. Proper feedback, however, will drive the game to a point where it is enjoyable by all for years to come. :)

I am in no way opposed to criticism of a game that is struggling. Nor am I opposed to productive discussion about what direction things could head in order to realize a general improvement in the game. That being said, I think we as forum posters have a rather over-inflated opinion of ourselves and the credence which SE places in our postings. Somehow in our own minds we twisted the change of management at SE and their plans for a new direction for the game into vindication for all the ranting, raving, ********* moaning, and "frothing at the mouth" that was done in the months preceding the change. "See, SE is changing the we game!!! We did that!!! ***** moar guys!!! They're hearing us!!!" I'm sorry, but "This game sux. I quit" did not generate a management overhaul at Square Enix headquarters. What did generate it, however, was well thought out, properly-constructed feedback submitted through the proper channels. Let's not lie to ourselves. Complaining about this, that, or the other in the general forums will do nothing but frustrate us and each other. Proper feedback, however, will drive the game to a point where it is enjoyable by all for years to come. :)

I understand Dr. Mog's points, and I can't help but agree, to a certain extent. The concept that the game's forum communities (not just ZAM) can drag the game down via short-sightedness and hostility is a real, legitimate threat to the game's well being. Granted, it's not the -only- reason the game could fail, but it certainly is a big one.

That's why I wrote that editorial awhile back, questioning whether Square Enix made the right move by allowing people to continue playing for free. My view on that topic has changed somewhat, now that SE is actually improving the game... but I have to wonder... how much better would we -feel- about the game if all the Negative Nancys weren't allowed to hang out and play for free? Certainly, more of these people who only have bad things to say would have moved onto other games by now... on the downside, that means fewer potential subs for FFXIV... on the bright side, that would mean the rest of us wouldn't have to put up with the constant flow of negativity, even when posters such as Dr. Mog go out of their way to try to be helpful.