* Apologise and people like Dom do not believe you and say that it is too late, insincere and by implication done by a bunch of racists (even though the Club has not in any way participated in or supported discriminatory practices in recent years)* Do not apologise and people say the Club is a bunch of racists from the apartheid era for not making one (even though the Club has not in any way participated in or supported discriminatory practices in recent years)

The MCSA membership is just a reflection of the pre 1994 SA legacy situation when it comes to most of South African outdoor recreational activities whether you talk hiking, climbing, 4x4, sports fishing, etc.

You completely missed my point.

Here's my point (in smaller words so you can understand):(1) You said "even though the Club has not in any way participated in or supported discriminatory practices in recent years" so I'll follow your implication that they did previously (we all know this). Ergo, there were people in the high echelons of the club who participated in/supported/were responsible for said discriminatory practices. Where are these people now? Are they still in the upper echelons of the club? If they are, then I'm inclined to take the supposed transformation a little less seriously. If they have been 'removed' from power, then that would be a good example of transformation, and could be taken seriously. Kick them out - there is no place for them in South Africa, especially when transformation is as stake.(2) If it's taken the MCSA 12 years to apologise, what does that say for the speed of the transformation effort? This country has made huge strides in the last 11 years, if it's so small an issue to the MCSA that it's taken 12 years, the why apologise at all?(3) I understand and appreciate all that the MCSA has done re: access etc etc. I don't even mind being reminded how I wouldn't be able to climb anywhere without the MCSA. I don't even mind being told what kind of worthless scum I am for not being a member. What bothers me is that every time someone criticises the MCSA, the MCSA Apologist Club, as headed by various people on this forum, jumps to it's defence, spouting the same tired old arguments.

Gadget wrote:

Lastly and more positively I can not describe to you how good it was to hear two climbers on a trad climb calling to each other in Zulu (I think it was Zulu). I sincerely hope that will become more commonplace in my lifetime and that someone will help educate me by producing a translation of “on belay climb when ready” and all the other calls in all official languages.

Are these arrogant personal insults really neccesary for someone of your intellect to get their point across? Yeah, I can take the inevitable flaming. Bring it on dude, I'll get my banjo...

In both cases, yes.

I would argue that, in the case of the first quote, it was a necessary response to someone putting words in my mouth. I *didn't* accuse the MCSA of being racist (as I honestly don't believe the MCSA to be racist). I consider their apology reactive and I believe that there is a hidden motive for said apology. I consider racism one of the more offensive isms, and am very wary of accusing someone or something of it. I'm sure you'd agree that it's annoying when someone accuses you of saying something that you didn't, clearly as a result of their sub-High School comprehension levels?

In the case of the second quote, I would argue that it is necessary because of the utterly stupid, bleeding-heart, hippie-bullshit comment.

So there you go, you put on your flame-retardant suit for nothing - I hope I didn't disappoint.

This argument is as old, redundant and currently as pointless as debating whether a Ford Granada is more luxurious than a Nissan Skyline, or vice versa.

12 years later, please can we move on already!!

Personally, I believe I'd accept an apololgy, just the same whether it was given actively and immediately or reactively fifty years later. In fact, the longer it takes to apologise, the more thought and heart has been put into the apology. One of the most difficult things to do in life is to admit fault and apologise .... let's all appreciate it for what it is.

Without apologising, forgiving and then immediately moving on, we cannot hope create anew. So..... let's move on together and create a place far more accepting and loving than the world has seen to date (and one which has beautifully tidy paths and shiny new bolts where-ever needed)!

I'm sad this topic died. I tell you no lie there is not much that beets a couple of whities pointing fingers.
about that always bringing ed feb into the race thing. next time use my name at least ed is famous (if that the right word to use) I'm Coloured, a climber and i don't get a seconed glace at the crag. Oh the thing to mention is i have taken lots of new comers out and some of those from time to time happen to be none white, black, coloured or what ever the corect term is.
i made it to where i am with the help of some people who i now concider true friends and they would probibly not concider what they did HELP.(they didn't climb any of the routes i'd put on a tick list for me but they were handy to have around).
I think dereks right take people climbing who want to go you can't push someone out there.

Hey Guest why not let Ed decide for himself how he feels about this topic.
I agree with Garvie!! I'm shure Ed did not employee you as his PA and to go throwing his name around like u feel.After all he has a mind of his own.If you have issues dont rub them off on other peoples names.
Guest if you are older then 10 years of age and not black then i'm shure in some way u benefitted from apartheid even if it wasnt your choice therefore u owe an apology.If not then u should still apologize cause your parents would also off been none black therefore u should apologize on there behalf for the apartheid era.And in onother 50 years time your kids would have to apologize for there ancestors that lived in apartheid time.For F..k sakes Guest give us a break and lets move on.Lots of none white climbers have moved on and are having the time of there lives out there but you will alway's hang on to any bit of negativity that you can.
Dont try and take all the other none whites down with you and rub your crappy attitude of on them.I have some very good none white friends of mine that have benefitted from the msca from the start and thats been members for some years now.The funny thing is we will all get together tonight over some beers and laugh off yout posts. Cheers to the MCSA.
And thanks to all you have done for me and my none white friends in the last 7 years of being a member.Its all uphill from here as long as we keep guest of the commitee.

JonoJ, of course everyone will forgive the MCSA, even after 12 years, however, I doubt they took so long because they were putting thought into it. Maybe for you, apologizing is the most difficult thing in life; however, this is a national club who preach sincerity and seriousness. 12 years is too long of course, and they were pressured to do it as you can make out from the full MCSA article. It's not up to us to piously run around inviting street kids to join up. This club did real, actual racial damage and directly benefited from apartheid. They received grabbed land and excluded brilliant climbers like Ed from being part of it all. Then they just expect him to join up and represent again.

"Have you hugged your democratic choice today?"...WTF? Jokes aside, this comment is pathetic. I expected more from a WITS graduate, obviously, while you were enjoying countless rafting trips, subsidized with white supremacy cash, you were ignoring the majority who were, and still are suffering. We have no democracy. We should all be aiming to do what is the right thing, regardless of politics.

Hahaha, dude... best you take that massive chip off your shoulder... perhaps you could give it to one of our sorry little street kids to scoff on(take both meanings of the word scoff, and apply here)!

Bare in mind bro', that not all of us pre-'94 "whities" are WITS graduates sponsored by white supremist cash..... some of us, were to poor to go to varsity and ended up in the defence force - in this particular case, stationed with a company of eastern cape "coloureds", who in fact helped us poor "whities" make it through our relative hardships in the establishment, thereby totally embodying the spirit of simunye and forgiveness (remember, this is just before the first democratic election). If they could do it, then anyone can.... as long as they try!

Moving on from the old, towards the new, requires time, a lot of letting go, a vast amount of forgiveness........ and a great deal of transparency - which reminds me guest: Just why are you hiding behind the mask of anonimity... who are you? Perhaps your ideal solution would be for the entire "non-black" population to up and leave the country? Yes, no?
Possible option, but in reality, far from easy and even further from being a solution.

In a very short time anyone still alive who was in any way a cause of this massive rift in our country will be dead...... let's kill this topic too, so that they can die in peace - it is our duty to at least grant them, and ourselves, that.

Guest try to stay focused here if possible!!I never once proposed that we should erase history.Yes i did say that we cant hold on to the past for ever and should move on to make a better future.There is a huge difference between the two and i find it really hard to believe you not grasping this.It seems like its gunna take a lot more then 12 years for u to realize your ignorance.
In the 7 years that i've been in the club they have sponsored bolts,hangers secured access(yes this includes for all my none white friends)and had lots of entertainment for all of us.Anyway the club should not only be about what u can get out but more of what u can putt in.
And lastely guest!!mo'schlork??What are u 5????
What do you know about apologizing anyway!!!

Never mind, guest. I think you're doing a wonderful job at promoting unity and reconciliation in SA, albeit completely unitentionally and inadvertently.

It's heart warming to see so many different people - black, white, male, female, graduates and not - united on the common (feel free to use this in both senses of the word too) topic of you and your fatuous opinions.

It would appear that you've done more for unity in SA in a couple of short posts than the mcsa (who don't give a rats ass about whether you join them or not) has in 12 years, hey? Impressive. Keep up the good work.

_________________All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.

Hmmm, guest I think you must mean restitution, not retribution. The two concepts are very, very different.
Maybe this is why everyone \"attacks every word you say\". Maybe you actually mean something quite different from the obnoxious vitriol you post. Maybe you're not really as confrontational and unpleasant as you appear to be.
Living In Hope In Africa!

_________________All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.

So guest angermanagement not working for u?
Haha!!!Exciting little club u say.Catch a wake up man the club is really not that little as you think and together they have done a sh.t load more then u can ever dream of doing on your own.
And dont be so touchie i was not attacking u MR AWNSER THE F..KING QUESTION.Just dont know what else to do to get u to understand what all the MCSA have done!Maybe i should try drawing u some pictures.
Guest what else do u want?maybe for the club to bring in a equity plan or give up there land they have funded for.The club is great today because off the work of the people in the club.I think an apology is just perfect and the MCSA doesnt have to kiss anybody's arse to join them.Everybody of all races have a chance of standing on the commitee and if an apology is not enough for u then do us all a favour and dont join.Guest i strongly suggest u keep your political cr.p to yourself and let the club grow.
And by the way our club is a lot more exciting then your ignorant little posts!!!

Ah people, guest is what is known as an a**hole. There is no debating, only his opinion that counts. Lets kill this thread and move on, but first everybody go into their broomcloset... take out the shoe polish...smear yourselfs dik and we should then be true South Africans.

I've been following this thread for a while now, and have felt the need to register and post a posting.

Here are my suggestions:
I would first like to congratulate the MSCA on their apology, it has meant a lot to many people of all colour and creed.
However, this is just not enough!

Not Enough, you ask?

Well since '94 there has been major reform in South Africa and it has been for the benefit of all ! Well done South Africa (we all need noddy badges).
I would suggest that the BMES (Black Mountaineering Empowerment Scheme) be set up and all the land that the MCSA owns and controls should be generously donated to this orginisation. Furthermore, all non-blacks should be band from climbing mountains, sitting on park benches and should be humiliated and called STUPID and other derogatory terms!

I also have to add that a good education does make one person far more superior than those with just plain intelligence. I mean, a person that can always spell correctly, use big words out of a thesaurus will most certainly have better problem solving capabilities and could with no doubt out wit, out play and out last those people who are intelligent. (tired of people using the same old resoning to shoot others down) Grow up and stop trying to be so god damned superior(you are not).

With that said, if you are happy with what the MCSA has been and is doing to make a difference, stop defending your orginisation. Only you know if it is enough to you.
If you are unhappy with what the MCSA has done or is doing or if you feel it is not happening quick enough, then do something about it - either in your own capacity or join and help make a difference.

The apartheid era was not ended by people sitting around posting B!tching sessions on threads like this, it was ended by people who stood up and did something about a situation they did not agree with. We could all learn from those 'Freedom Fighters'.

U cant go and round up some friends do a little dance with a couple off banners maybe sing some freedom songs in front of the MCSA and then demand yourself on the committee.Hey man catch a wake up here the MCSA is not government run but it is however a group of people with the love for mountains that got together to form an organisation where they can achieve more together.
True story everybody has an even chance off standing on the committee and you should be thanking the club for giving you this oppertunity.

The real question should be what did you do for the club to make you think they owe you an explanation?Once again the club is not gunna give you a job!but join them for your own personel reasons if you want.

The MCSA have built themselfs up to what they are today buy the hard work off the people in the club.Know they are saying hey come and join us on what we have created.They are saying dont worry about all the commitment, work and sweat that we all have putt in the past to create the club but just bring yourselfs and come join us and have fun.
Yet this is still not enough for some of you!!!!??

THEY DONT OWE YOU ANYTHING!!!!!!!!
AN APOLOGY WAS JUST PERFECT AND KNOW LETS ALL MOVE ON!!!!!!!

I'm not going to comment on your suggestions as to how to further make ammends to non-white climbers, because they are obviously tongue in cheek.
But I promise that I don't sit with a thesaurus next to me when I post, and look up big words to impress people. Nor a dictionary to check my spelling. Also, nowhere do I (or anyone else) claim to have a better education than anyone else on this site. Nor that my better education (should I have one) makes me superior in any way to anyone else. I use big words like I use small words - to get a point across. Surely you're not suggesting that I refrain from using big words because it might make others feel inferior? That would be a bit odd.
I don't agree with you when you say that if we're happy with what the mcsa is doing we should just keep quiet and not defend it. Why? To prevent arguments? This forum is here for people to discuss and debate things. People are always going to disagree and have every right to be heard, no matter what their opinions are. If no one debated anything we'd have a pretty inactive and probably rather boring forum. I have no issue with anyone holding any opinion whatsoever. Of course, that if that person posts that opinion they have made it public and any other person can respond to it in any manner they see fit. If that involves \"shooting someone down\" - well, this is the real world and it is going to happen. Also, people tend to get shot down when they are rude, confrontational and unreasonable. (Yeah, yeah, in my opinion.) If you look at guest's posts in the multi-pitch thread, you will notice that no one has shot him down or posted a nasty reply to anything he has said. That is because he posted (good grief, I find myself surprised to be writing this) constructive, helpful, pleasant comments. People have shot him down here because of things that he has said that they find offensive. And here we are right back to freedom of speech. Let guest say what he likes. Let anyone respond.
I do agree with you when you said that if people are unhappy about something then they should do something about it and not just whine about it on the internet. If people really want to see meaningful change they need to do something, no matter how small that something is. Then maybe post on the site what they've done and ask people to join in or help out. Who knows - maybe something constructive might even result.....

I might be white but I'm also an African.

_________________All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.

Does 'African Climber\" imply that I am a person of colour? I too am white.

The aim of my posting was to highlight the futility of this thread. It has turned into the 'kitten chasing its tail'(it is in no way constructive). I totally agree that things should be discussed and debated, but this only really works in a mature environment with mature people and mature suggestions and comments.

I would suggest that this thread be shut off and a new one be created to discuss any suggestions or ideas on how or what can be done to further climbing in South Africa for ALL!
After all we are a small enough community, we should try to stick together and grow as a whole! Sure many people have many differences, but if dealt with maturely and constructively, I am positive that progress would be made and betterment for the entire climbing community would ensue.

My take on this whole debate is that the MCSA is under no obligation to DO anything. Basically the MCSA is a collection of people who share the same interests - heading out into the mountains. The MCSA has never had a policy of active recruitment - basically if you enjoy the mountains then you'll seek out like-minded people and will sooner or later you're bound to have contact with the club. You then check it out to see if you'd like to join (and if they'll have you) and thats the end of it. Obviously for a long time the club wouldnt allow people in based on their colour or religion, but that all stopped ages ago. Personally I'm not in climbing to go around trying to recruit people, whatever their colour. I'm in it for what I can get out. People might say thats selfish etc. etc. but climbing is an inherently selfish activity. It adds no value to society, takes up alot of time (ie time away from family and friends) and has the potential to kill you. Generally if I'm friends with someone, no matter what their colour, I'll ask them to join me on a climbing trip or at least a day in a kloof. If they're keen to take it up, then I'll help, but I'm not in climbing to hold anyones hand. I've got my own goals that I want to achieve.

I play basketball, and pretty much my entire team is black. I took them all down Grootkloof one day and most of them were blown away. They hadnt seen anything like it before. I said that if anyone was keen to take up climbing then I'd be happy to take them out. One of the guys was keen, and he's starting slowly. The others have other interests and didnt think climbing was for them. Cool.
I took a bunch of my white friends down Castle Gorge. Exactly the same response. One of them dabbled for a while and then moved on to other things.
No-one can be forced to climb. The MCSA is not in the business of exposing non-climbing whites to climbing, so why should it have to expose non-climbing blacks to climbing? The MCSA should just carry on and do its thing, and if people wanna join then they will.

The majority of you people really are idiots (I agree with Guest on that). Do you realise how stupid you sound preaching your white liberal bleeding heart vomit and congratulating one another for being so new South African and having black friends. The unpleasant reality is that life in South Africa is not exactly pleasant for most, and the blame for that can be laid largely on the actions of the apartheid government, whose policies are still being felt - it’s called economic segregation now.

Look back at the injustices perpetrated on non-whites during the apartheid era - is that the kind of thing that an apology, 12 years late no less, can erase?

I'm going assume that the answer would be along the lines of \"No\".

Newsflash: the MCSA was complicit in enforcing apartheid, and a beneficiary of the apartheid government. How would you feel about this issue if you weren’t well-off and white? How do non-white climbers feel about reading the same old racist invective everyone spews out when they talk about crime at the crags? How about the timing of the apology, right around when the government starts getting antsy about repatriating land? I’ve said it before - this is a cynical, reactive move and it’s done nothing to change my view of the MCSA.

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