I think victimization of males, by men or women, is widely overlooked, and that perpetration by females, towards either gender, is a taboo subject.

Statistics are there, as well as reports, as well as convictions.

And yet, people still act like it doesn't happen.

I've seen some well-intentioned women get very defensive in workshhops or presentations if abuse of men and/or by women was brought up.

They are so worried about the numerous crimes committed by men, for so long not taken seriously enough, and so worried about women, who still are under-reported, that they see issues like ours as a threat to their focus or as some insignificant anomoly.

They look at me as if I'm bringing our issues up just for the sake of argement, and that is frustrating.

Sexual victimization of ANYONE by ANYONE is wrong.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

I'd actually be interestedto know if your research ever uncovers any experiences similar to mine, which happened at secondary school in the context of repeated and extreme bullying that got steadily worse and resulted in as I said above, what I now would considder gang rape and s/xual humiliation by a bunch of girls (never less than 4 and usually around 6). While I experienced physical violence and insults from boys, this never bothered me as much as the female, more sepcifically s/xual abuse.

One issue I think was a major factor in my case, is this belief that females cannot be perpetrators. for a bunch of girls to force a boy against a wall, pull his trousers down and fondle his genitals was a joke, but what if a bunch of boys had done that to a girl?

As I said, I even got a severe yelling at for "touching girls inappropriately" when I punched a girl in the chest (given her position it was the most reacheable targit), despite what was happening to me at the time.

I'm not convinced on the social trends changing though, not when (at least in britain), it's still far more frowned upon for a man to show any feminine traits at all. indeed, i'd argue myself that sexism against men is a more wide ranging social problem that is not the least addressed, ---- after all, "all men are pigs" would be a quite acceptable public comment, where as "all women are pigs" would get someone into severe trouble. As I said, i'd love to write on this myself, but given that the so called overview of s/xual ethics I had during my degree in philosophy began with the words "seventy percent of men would abuse a woman if they could" i worry about how angry and generally hurt the reading material would make me feel doing the research for such.

A while ago in Sweden a ring of child pornography was discovered and it generated huge headlines when it became public that most of the people involved were women. And then, interestingly, newspapers were full of articles about how this could be, publishing facts about the one man being behind all of this, having manipulated the women to participate.

Maybe this was the case, I don't know, maybe these women had been talked into sharing child pornography by this man, but seriously, when these rings are discovered and the people involved by men there is never any headlines about one of them having manipulated the others into it even if that might be the case also with men involved.

I find it interesting that when women are perpetrators it becomes so important to the public to find explanations to how this could happen. To me it seems like the patriarchal view of masculinity -strength - perpetration versus femininity - weekness - victimisation is so strong people just can't handle that women are people too, capable of evil things just like men. It just bugs me.

That is absolutely true, indeed my brother as a straight forward anime (japanese animation) fan with significant knolidge of other fans says it really irritates him when men are cryticized for watching hentai, aka, japanese pornographic animation, where as female fans often do exactly the same thing, write articals about it and even argue it's it's own "feminine subculture" whatever the hell that means, despite the fact men who attempt to watch or be interested in hentai are seen as just as culpable as men who watch pornography of any sort.

i don't even think it's quite as simple as automatically assigning anything strong the value of "masculine" and anything weak the value of "feminine"

Look at characters like ripley in the alien films or zoe in firefly. A woman who exhibits masculine traits is held up as "independent" where as however if a woman wants! to fulfill a traditional female roll at home with the children "well that's her choice"

It is as if the female sterriotype is held up as an ideal which women are free to choose or not, and either choice is held as right.

men however are forced! into the masculine sterriotype. This is not just a view of strength and protection, but also these days brutishness, clownishness, idiocy, a "one track mind", unemotionality and even more increasingly in modern portrayals, the idea that a single man is in some way weak or lacking, where a single woman is once again independent.

The best example I can think of of this view as the time I was at the bar at university, ordering my usual coctail (I believe it was tia maria and orange at the time), when a large man beside me said "that's a girly drink why not have a pint!"

I explained that I've tried beer and larga before, including some apparently high standard real ales, but none particularly appealed to me. This idiot said "well drink 20 pints, then! you'd like beer" I asked why I should down 20 pints of something I didn't like, to which this fellow replied "because your a man!"

And yet, beside me at the bar girls were drinking everyting from straight up lemonade to larga or licures without any harrassment at all.

As I said, it's my personal belief that all! sexist sterriotypes are wrong, however it seems that where there is huge recognition of the female sterriotype, there is no recognition of the male, indeed in many ways views of men in society are actually being made worse by those ultra nazi feminists who catagorize all men as evil.

Well, we had this discussion before so you know I don't really agree with your analyzis. I feel the need to answer since you made a completely different point from what I wrote before than I do.

You wrote:

"it is as if the female sterriotype is held up as an ideal which women are free to choose or not, and either choice is held as right."

I think this sentence is quite illustrative to where we differ in opinion. What I see around me is not that the female steriotype is a free choise, rather that girls are taught from birth how to be in a way that gets really into their identity (just like boys are), and then when the girls rebel against this they meet all kinds of bad reactions but they do anyway and they organize because the female stereotype is just so restricting may of them can't live with it. I could give you facts and figures as to how the structural opression of women still happens but I don't have the time right now.

One point I want to make is, that obviously you don't recognize the ways that women are put down when chosing not to live by their female stereotype. This could be because they're not put down, but it could also be because you just don't have the personal experience and therefore do not se it when it happens. Just like so many women don't understand why it is a big difficult thing for a guy to have a "girly" drink in public. They don't see the problem because it doesn't happen to them.

This link is to an article about comparing identities that I just read. Maybe it would be interesting to you. Personally I think that male survivors would benefit from greater understanding from other groups, but I don't think we reach that by comparing with the struggles of women and minimizing the womens movement. Instead I think we should respect the womens movement and find the common grounds were we have the same interests.

...like to chime in on the debate tho I'm wholly unqualified to do so...

Yes, Steve the victims are seen as less legitimate and I think it's because in society and in the world of criminal justice we focus on the act not the outcome. In a "tradiional" rape scenario the woman is penetrated, often with violence, and the immediate outcome may be pregnancy or disease. We know this storyline from prehistory. The inverse act involves a male becoming engulfed by a female. This concept does not carry the valence or history of the former act.

What we utterly ignore is the outcomeof the act. All of those same feelings of violation, of vulnerability, of personal loss. I must admit that I've been as callouse as the next when it comes to misunderstanding the ramifications. I had a drinking buddy that chased a lot of tail and banged a lot of chicks. He mentioned waking up drunk one night finding himself getting raped by a female and I made light of his situation. It takes a much deeper understanding than we currently possess, even with so many childhood sexual abuse survivors coming to light, to give the experiences you men speak of its propper gravity and respect.

As far as gender roles go, they're also as old as rape itself. The answer is accepting they exists but refusing to let them define our being. No person fits completely within their gender stereotype. If they do, they're a neurotic robot in need of serious therapy. There will always be macho assholes. There will always be smothering mothers. I just try to be happy being me: a stay-at-home dad who cooks and cleans and washes the laundry AND drinks a larga at the pub. Tia Maria is more of a nightcap methinks.

DE I think a bit of humor could go along way to diffuse these situations with cromagnons. Perhaps you could say, well I could drink that but a larga makes me rather gassy and the ladies don't like that at all.

@Scottyg, I didn't particularly care what this idiot thought. i know myself and know what I like well enough not to, I was just using it as an illustrative example.

@blessedcurse, i'm sorry if I gave the impression that I do not recognize that there are still in western society those who are harmed by female sterriotypes, it's only necessary to look at beauty products or the fashion industry to see as much, and indeeed of course in the past this was significantly worse.

I am often in fact the first to react when someone says something sexist about women or! men in given situations.

My issue however, is that at least in the Uk, and especially among interlectuals and politicians, the initial drive for "Equality" often turns into something else, especially i might add due to the prominant beliefs of certain feminists.

It might be different in other cultures, indeed perhaps the Uk is slightly different from the Us in this respect, (particularly given that ultra conservative religious views are less common over here especially among politicans).

But I do for instance frequently here sexist comments from women about men repeatedly "all men are after one thing", or "all men are pigs" or similar, that were they made about women would cause far more of an outcry.

As one fundimental example, look at the pantomime tradition. Even 50 years ago, a woman wearing man's clothing would be seen just as strange and commical as the other way around, which is why the principle boy in panto's was always played by a girl, just as the dame was played by a man.

now however, could a man wear something feminine? ---- indeed, I myself sometimes have trouble buying simple products such as cologne?

Likewise, boys are still! told not to hit girls, are girls ever told not to hit or insult boys? methinks not.

it isn't that I am in favour of any sort of oppression of women, indeed quite the reverse, it's just that I believe the male aspect of sexism is not recognized, and indeed given the efforts of certain feminist writers, is almost going the other way in some areas, ---- for example, these days men are almost banned from working with young children!

I call myself a gender equalitarian, which is precisely what I am, and is the position I'd advocate for anyone who would like to see a world with no gender sterriotypes where it was acceptable for a man or! a woman to safely look after kids, be a plumber, learn to sew, fix cars, and wear whatever style of clothing they dam well wanted!

I myself attempt to give the fact that I am male as much significance as the fact that I am five foot nine. it has some biological baring on what I do in a few areas, but othrwise, I'm me, end of story. I just wish more people were the same.

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