Listen I never wanted to get in a shouting match and argument over any of this. But when u believe in something and u have faith in it and someone comes along and critizes you for it and tries to make u feel like a idiot for it then yeah I take offense. I have my right to my religion and beliefs the same as u.

Now about the gay rights and what not. I honestly believe that people mis understood what and how I meant it. I used bad terms to explain my points when it came to getting my point across about being gay and my beliefs on that.

But yet I'm still here and have my beliefs. I know many with laugh and mock me and say my beliefs are idiotic. But you guys are nothing to me and it dosent bother me. The same as I am nothing to you.

I'm not a smart man(forest gump) and I don't proclaim to be and act as such. But I'm a god hearted caring person and would give each as every one of you the shirt off my back, stop if you were broke down and help any way I can. I believe that I deserve just a little bit of respect. And I will give u respect as well. I acknowledged your thoughts and beliefs. Although they aren't mine I accept that those are your feelings on the situation. So lets just move on Philly.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

It's because you never defined the attributes of your god. You guys keep talking past each other because you have yet to define if he is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, timeless, non material, etc. etc.

You can't communicate well without clear definitions of terms.

step one of any kind of discussion like this should consist of a theist defining his or her god's attributes from the outset. it's a common tactic that apologists like to use-making an atheist define and answer questions about god for them by opening up with a bunch of hypotheticals and open ended questions. then they can come back and ream them out for making positive claims about something they "don't believe exists".

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I am not a historical or religious scholar and I don't have strong enough views on this subject matter to put up much of a fight one way or another.

But in terms of Christianity more so than God itself, although it is not unanimous, most historians believe that Jesus did indeed walk the Earth and was enough of a threat to religious orthodoxy at the time that he was given a death reserved for the most heinous of criminals.

That in itself is not a proof of God but it is proof of a person who did exist and who made enormous waves during his time here. That gives some credence to Christianity even if it is short of proof of God or Jesus being a divine being.

And although I consider myself a Christian I am extremely liberal in my interpretation of the Bible, and do not take in particular the Old Testament as a literal interpretation of history.

In other words although I consider myself a Christian I do pick and choose what to believe and what personal path to follow.

I personally find it arrogant to belittle people of faith based on that faith. To use an earlier example, if someone wants to believe that there is a purple octopus in the sky, and that octopus gives them a sense of joy or security, if I can't prove that the octopus doesn't exist, even if I think it is absurd, who am I to take that from them?

I find it equally abhorrent for people to use religion as a shield to belittle, or ostracize others, or even kill others because they don't believe in your purple octopus. However, in my opinion that is about the people committing these acts and not about the God in which they do these acts in the name of.

Religion is just a convenient shield for those people. If religion didn't exist they would use another guise for their hatred, or someone would use another entity to brainwash people into committing these acts.

In other words religion is the vehicle that is used to commit these actions, not religion itself.

Again, I am not as well versed in history as some of you, but that is my two cents.

This, 1000x over.

I don't want to post anything lengthy, as I'm on my phone and it will be chock full of typos, lol. But, I will attempt to pontificate a little by piggybacking off of teeray's awesome post.

I also want to point out that I find it extremely interesting that no one from the other side of the argument has responded to his post. I guess it's much easier to pick on the one guy in the thread that most religious types would NOT want representing them as though he is in fact representative of all religious-types, lol. But that is what I'm finding is the usual in these type of threads... Find the one, archetypal, dated, milquetoast "Christian," and whittle down an entire religion based off of that individual's expressed views that were not shaped by God, but rather by man and passed on as truth.

Now some random thoughts and hopefully, a brief explanation of why I believe...

I'm not a historian or a religious scholar either, but I am certain that Jesus walked the Earth and he was of divine origin. Therefore, I am certain there is a God, and I believe in the God from whom Jesus Christ is attributed to. Everything else, I can't give you an answer... but of those things, I am certain.

I kniw these threads are ultimately pointless, as I've found throughout my lifetime that most people who are anti-religious ultimately became that way, in part because of their own personal experiences with religion and/or religious-types, which left them bitter, angry, and discouraged in general. Everyone travels their own unique journey, so I can't judge what anyone else has been through, or tell them how they should feel. But, I find it extremely narrow-minded to assume that because of one's personal experience that they could discount others' beliefs altogether, when you are not aware of what they have been through or experienced themselves. Although asking one to disprove God exists is not a sound argument, the question does acknowledge within itself, that there is a possibility of a God for those that don't believe.

Also, I don't believe science and faith/spirituality are mutually exclusive. I believe things we don't understand in faith are explained by science. And things that can't be explained by science are only explained by the supernatural/faith/spirituality.

I believe Jesus was a radical in his day. He would've been considered extremely liberal and even jn The Bible, he was considered aloof and awkward. Had he not had something powerfully magnetic to say, most would not have even noticed him. But, it was in his presence, his glowing compassiin and love for the lost and downtrodden, and his desire to passionately right wrongs, that he gained a following and thus, Christianity was born. Now, the example of Jesus I think of that is most relevant to today's world, is the one of him overturning the tables in the temple. Why? Because man has corrupted his teachings and used the church as a vehicle for doing so. This is where all of the uber-conservative, "the bible says blacks became blacks as a curse"-type thinking comes from. People have used Christianity to mislead and misuse people looking for hope and purpose, and so, all of these misguided, small-minded, and dangerous ideals are born. IMO, this is where the ideas that all believers believe because they fear reality, reason, and logic come from as well, because there is that demographic of people who claim to be believers spouting off what some guy taking their money told them to believe... that's not Christianity.

I don't believe out of fear or because I'm scared to seek out knowledge or truth. In fact, I do my best to seek out knowledge and truth in all that I do. I believe in God because I saw His works first-hand. I've shared it before, but my oldest daughter was born at 24 weeks gestation. She was 1lb 7oz, she almost lost her arm because it was trapped in the birth canal for the entire duration of labor, and initially, it was believed she suffered some hemorrhaging inside of her brain, which could've potentially meant anything from being physically disabled to being reduced permanently in a vegetative state. Every time we were told she was dying, all I could do is pray. Every time I was offered by a doctor to end her suffering and take her off life support, all I could do is pray. I had to have faith that there was a reason she was created. There was a reason she was born. There was reason she was given to my wife and I at the time and in the condition she was in, but I had no idea why. I have been through so much in my life that I would cinsider myself a mentally tough person. Yet, I found myself laying in a fold-out couch, hyperventilating, begging for my wife's nurse to admit me and give me something so I could sleep as I was crying uncontrollably. Every time the phone I rang I was literally scared I was going to die, as my worst fear was that they were calling to tell me to come down AGAIN, because my daughter was going...

After two weeks of not knowing whether she'd make it from minute to minute, we came in to visit as usual, and an alarming trend had finally come to a decision. My daughter was showing no signs of kidney function for days. I was told, at 20 years old, that this little part of me laying in that incubator, was slowly poisoning her own body. I was told that I now had to make a decision. There was nothing else they could do. I could either elect to leave everything as it was and allow her to suffer slowly as her body poisons itself and she eventually passes. Or I could elect to end her suffering and take her off life support - which had been suggested several times by one doctor in particular. My eyes welled up, I immediately walked outside of the hospital and cried. I asked God several times throughout this ordeal, "WHY?" Why me? Why us? Why my daughter? Why couldn't it be any other people who have children everyday and don't want them or mistreat them. All I ever wanted to be was a father. Why?

So, outside of that hospital, I prayed. I told God that I believed she was given to us for a reason and that if he wanted to take her, he would have to do it because I'm not making that decision. I had faith that he gave her to us for a reason, regardless of the circumstances. I went back in and told them to keep helping her and we'll see what happens.

The next day, after almost a week of little to no kidney activity, and this was the first actual prayer I prayed specifically about her kidneys, they began to work again. There was no other explanation. They were doing the same thing they had been doing, and yet, it happened. The same thing happened with her arm, her brain, and numerous other issues, and everytime, she pulled through perfectly... 9 years later, she is a healthy, normal, smart, beautiful girl.

Yet, I could've very well listened to that one or two doctors and pulled her off life-support and ended her life before it ever really began. But I didn't because of my faith in something greater. It was a microcosm of spirituality in general. Although we don't understand our circumstances, we shiuld try to understand them, but still believe that there is a great design behind it all and believe and hope for something for which we cannot yet see, or even fathom. That is why I believe.

And again, I don't have all of the answers and I don't pretend to. But, I will look for them. I am not perfect, and I don't pretend to be. But, I will keep pushing for it. I don't know why so many horrific things happen and I can't explain how or why they happen. But I also see a lot of things that counter those things, for which the only explanation can be GOD.

I don't know what I would believe if it wasn't for my experience, but I was raised a Christian and am a Christian because the God I was praying to responded to my prayers. Furthermore, as I have looked further into the foundations of Christianity, the existence and works of Jesus cannot be disproven, therefore, I have reason to believe in what has not been seen by my own eyes.

And yet, while having such a strong faith, I still search for answers and truth in my everyday life. I question everything except for the above stated because of the experiences I have personally had and I don't expect anyone else to understand it if you haven't experienced yourself. I am well aware some people have experienced things that have had the opposite effect on their spirituality or outlook in faith. I don't have an answer for that.

I don't allow my beliefs to put me in a box. I am a well-educated and extremely unique individual. I believe Jesus was a rebel in his time, and I would view my own relationship with the current state of "the church" and institutionalized forms of religion as parallel to his in his time. In fact, I don't want my understanding as a follower of Christ to be associated with the term "religion" because man has perverted it. But, I AM A BELIEVER OF GOD AND A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST - A CHRISTIAN.

Okay, so that was lengthy, but a lot of this has been caged up for awhile because I found it pointless to expound on my beliefs because so many have hunkered down in their opinions of each side of the argument that they feel they have it all figured out.

I would also like to point out that I respect and appreciate every one of the thoughtful and intelligent posters here on the huddle and in the tinderbox, but I generally want to avoid these threads because they bring out some pretty thoughtless and careless comments.