Since a lot of the preview threads here and on the WOTC boards tend to go toward the "power creep" discussion, and Grambo brought up a good question in the preview thread:

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My basic beef remains this... this set, on the surface, appears on a track to invalidate a pretty significant percentage of the figures I own. To me, this is a grave problem. This is the same formula Magic used... and it made the game, at least for me, not worth trying to keep up with... quite quickly, in fact.

Look, I'm not against new things... I'm not against variety... I'm not even against change. What I AM against is rampant power creep, which feels more like poor design and intentional attempts to take advantage of the player base and less like some 'grand scheme to fix imbalance'.

I'm not a WotC hater, by any stretch... but I feel like I'm hearing from a few fanboi's here. Can anyone legitimately explain why continually increasing power on new things, thus invalidating the old, is a good thing? I'm open to listen to cogent arguments... and saying "WotC Rob said it was good" is not one.

I think that some amount of "power creep" is a good thing.

First, the power creep we are about to experience should be limited to the melee figures. This is a good thing because "melee" itself was unbalanced, and therefore every new usable ranged shooter further obsoleted even new melee figures until the JWM mistake.

Second, new abilities will create power creep as they are sometimes undercosted, especially when used with a synergistic old ability (i.e. twin attack and mobile, and to a lesser degree, twin attack and disintegration). However, new abilities are good for the game. I'd almost say critical as they push the limits and are also what sells packs.

Third, some amount of power creep sells packs. Getting the hot new Vader or Luke or (hopefully) Revan is motivation for the consumers to drop cash on packs. The alternative is that the product does not sell enough to warrant the license and then we're left with no more expansions .

A personal note on the third - I dont own a whole lot of minis - just a few singles to get the squads I want. However, if a new set is exciting enough, I could see myself spending more than I should on a case or two. Thus, a good, new set with enough figures to let me be competitive against the sum of the previous sets would potentially bring in new players. I believe that more new players are brought in by pushing the limits than old players pushed away.

Power creep, however, must be limited. If only a few select pieces are creepy, then it should be enough to sell packs, spice up the metagame, but keep the game as a whole roughly in the same power level. Also, the power "rebalancing" that we are experiencing is for the greater good of the game. Yes, it'll push older melee units into the obsolete bin, but as a lot of wiser and more experienced posters have said "they should've been there to begin with"

Also, power creep by its nature only can go so far. It must be small and incremental so that the trust of the gamer/consumer is not lost. The game must have some sort of continuity of balance that can be seen over long periods of time. Balanced games are fun, but I believe that they need not be perfectly balanced. Thus, a small, deliberate amount of power creep is fine by me. I say, bring it on! Show me the cool Revan![/quote]

Extremely well said, Solodan. And actually, I agree entirely... for me, if the powercreep were small and incremental, I'd be 100% behind it. I just fear that what has been shown is the tip of the iceberg... I really truly hope I'm wrong.

First, the power creep we are about to experience should be limited to the melee figures. This is a good thing because "melee" itself was unbalanced, and therefore every new usable ranged shooter further obsoleted even new melee figures until the JWM mistake.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the large point cost melee figures are completely disruptive to the game and have -- and will continue to -- largely destroyed the game.

The last few sets have contained far too many melee/Jedi "gatekeepers" that make any strategy other than "GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support figures" impossible to play.

A big part of the problem is that these new high-cost melee figures are completely unbalanced point wise. Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter at 75 points should be be a fair fight against 75 points of other premium costed figures, like Stormtroopers. But he's not, he's completely unbalanced against an equal number of points in Stormtroopers. This is because he never misses them, they can barely hit him, he's take almost no damage from them, they can't survive being hit by him. But the real kicker is this: Everytime Vader does damage to the horde of Stormtroopers, their effectiveness drops considerably. Every time the Stormies hurt Vader is does nothing to his effectiveness.

For example, 15 stormies have 150 hit points and could combine fire to lay out 5 attacks a round at +12 to hit for 50 damage total. That's close to Vader's 3 attacks at +16 for 60 damage total. Given odds, they'll miss half of those attacks, and half of the ones that hit will be nerfed by Dark Armor. This means that the Stormie squad will hit Vader for an average of 10 points a round. At that rate, it'll take 14 rounds to kill Vader.

But every time Vader hits and kills a Stormie (and he could just Sith Grip every round and kill them all in 15 rounds), the overall effectiveness of the Stormies drops. The first one dies and suddenly it's 4 attacks at +12, one attack at +8. When the Stormie horde has taken 60 points of damage, it's down to 3 attacks at +12 for 30 total damage. When Vader has taken 60 points of damage, he's STILL 3 attacks at +16 for 60 damage.

That gives the big melee fighters a HUGE advantage over everything else.

This dynamic has made it impossible to run swarm squads. Impossible to run anything but a GIANT BEATSTICK. Which ultimately ruins the flexibility of the game, the exact OPPOSITE of the result that imporiving the melee fighters were supposed to create. Ever since I started doing tournment play, my interest in the game has been dwindling. I've tried several different tactics, and the only thing that ever works is GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support. It gets boring really, really fast.

So I'm seriously against power creep. It doesn't balance the game, it doesn't make the game more flexibile, it doesn't create new options. it does one thing and one thing only: it makes all of the money I invested in my Rebel Storm set money flushed down the toilet. That's why I quit playing Magic, and it's eventually what will cause me to quit playing SWM.

I voted for a little. As I said in my previous posts on the subject; Marketing = Power Creep.

LFL, WOTC, etc. all want the latest set to be the best, so they make the newer minis a bit better. Result, hardcore gamers scream, "Power Creep!"

Given the choice would you;
watch a film on VHS or DVD?
play a game on a ZX-81 or an X-Box/PS2?
drive a 1960's Mustang or a 2007 Mustang?

Okay, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

If the game was collected like planned, players buying the odd booster, then not everyone is likely to have all the newer pieces anyway, so some would sill be playing those older pieces. But the gaming market is dominated by uber-geeks, myself included, who probably spend more money than they should to get those power pieces and/or complete sets by buying minis by the case. So instead of everyones squad gradually building, gradually getting stronger, then another set coming out and the Power Creep seeming gentle, gamers instead get the whole set and Wham! Power Creep in one hit.

The internet doesn't help either. When I was young collecting movie cards each new packet was a surprise, I didn't know what I was going to get. Nowadays collectors know what's in the set before it's even released.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the large point cost melee figures are completely disruptive to the game and have -- and will continue to -- largely destroyed the game.

The last few sets have contained far too many melee/Jedi "gatekeepers" that make any strategy other than "GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support figures" impossible to play.

A big part of the problem is that these new high-cost melee figures are completely unbalanced point wise. Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter at 75 points should be be a fair fight against 75 points of other premium costed figures, like Stormtroopers. But he's not, he's completely unbalanced against an equal number of points in Stormtroopers. This is because he never misses them, they can barely hit him, he's take almost no damage from them, they can't survive being hit by him. But the real kicker is this: Everytime Vader does damage to the horde of Stormtroopers, their effectiveness drops considerably. Every time the Stormies hurt Vader is does nothing to his effectiveness.

For example, 15 stormies have 150 hit points and could combine fire to lay out 5 attacks a round at +12 to hit for 50 damage total. That's close to Vader's 3 attacks at +16 for 60 damage total. Given odds, they'll miss half of those attacks, and half of the ones that hit will be nerfed by Dark Armor. This means that the Stormie squad will hit Vader for an average of 10 points a round. At that rate, it'll take 14 rounds to kill Vader.

But every time Vader hits and kills a Stormie (and he could just Sith Grip every round and kill them all in 15 rounds), the overall effectiveness of the Stormies drops. The first one dies and suddenly it's 4 attacks at +12, one attack at +8. When the Stormie horde has taken 60 points of damage, it's down to 3 attacks at +12 for 30 total damage. When Vader has taken 60 points of damage, he's STILL 3 attacks at +16 for 60 damage.

That gives the big melee fighters a HUGE advantage over everything else.

This dynamic has made it impossible to run swarm squads. Impossible to run anything but a GIANT BEATSTICK. Which ultimately ruins the flexibility of the game, the exact OPPOSITE of the result that imporiving the melee fighters were supposed to create. Ever since I started doing tournment play, my interest in the game has been dwindling. I've tried several different tactics, and the only thing that ever works is GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support. It gets boring really, really fast.

So I'm seriously against power creep. It doesn't balance the game, it doesn't make the game more flexibile, it doesn't create new options. it does one thing and one thing only: it makes all of the money I invested in my Rebel Storm set money flushed down the toilet. That's why I quit playing Magic, and it's eventually what will cause me to quit playing SWM.

Much as I'm concerned about powercreep, I must disagree with you here Krayt. A 75 point power figure is going to dominate little guys, regardless. However, if you take that same 75 points, put 20 of it into a good CE, things change fast. Take your example... Darth at 75 against 15 Stormies. Darth wins... period. Now, try it against Piett + 11 Stormies. It is a MUCH closer proposition. Now, compare Darth at 75 against 75 points worth of premier shooters... Han Scoundrel with some scrubs, for example.

This dynamic has made it impossible to run swarm squads. Impossible to run anything but a GIANT BEATSTICK. Which ultimately ruins the flexibility of the game, the exact OPPOSITE of the result that imporiving the melee fighters were supposed to create. Ever since I started doing tournment play, my interest in the game has been dwindling. I've tried several different tactics, and the only thing that ever works is GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support. It gets boring really, really fast.

So I'm seriously against power creep. It doesn't balance the game, it doesn't make the game more flexibile, it doesn't create new options. it does one thing and one thing only: it makes all of the money I invested in my Rebel Storm set money flushed down the toilet. That's why I quit playing Magic, and it's eventually what will cause me to quit playing SWM.

Have you played the game at all since A&E came out? There are SEVERAL swarm squads that do quite well. Heck, I placed 3rd at the GenCon Championships, but I almost lost to a huge swarm of Ewoks in the very first game of the day. One or two more rounds and he would've won (time was called...and we were playing fast, I think we played 7 or 8 rounds, even though he had 30+ characters).

The Ithorian Commander alone made a huge number of swarm squads playable. The JWM swarm is extremely effective still. Stormtrooper squads got a GIGANTIC boost with Admiral Piett. Heck even swarms of generic Rebel troops are a lot better now with the Rebel Captain and Rebel Leader.

Your example of Vader JH against a bunch of Stormies is flawed in one thing. The movie iconic Uniques are designed to be better than the scrubs. I mean honestly, do you think Vader (in the movies) would be taken down by 15 Stormtroopers? A 'entire Legion' (which would be 5,000 soldiers in Roman Empire times) of the Empire's finest were bested by a handful of rebels and a bunch of sticks and stones. The SWM game will not necessarily play out the way you think it will, just because the points add up the same.

What's more important to me though, is that a battle of a Vader against an Obi-Wan, or a Vader against Luke is somewhat balanced. And it's part of why the game is specifically centered around certain point formats.

Heck, you put Vader JH up against Admiral Piett, and 11 Stormtroopers, and Vader will actually go down pretty fast. Especially since he's going to be taking 20 dmg a hit almost every time now.

Just because your swarm of 40 Rebel soldiers can't take out any other 200 point team doesn't mean the game has had too much power creep. Just means you need to be more creative in your squad builds.

I personally like 'power shifts'. I'm against power creep in general, because I too would like to see old pieces remain playable competitively. However, I think it is great that every set shifts things a little bit here and there. It keeps the game interesting, and makes the players re-learn their strategies each time new pieces are introduced. It's what keeps the game alive. If nothing changed, nobody would buy the new stuff, and the game would die.

_________________-AaronMand'alor"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."

[quote="krayt_dragon"]
I couldn't disagree more. I think the large point cost melee figures are completely disruptive to the game and have -- and will continue to -- largely destroyed the game.
[quote]

I would disagree here, for the simple reason that any melee figure who is costed 62 or more is a HUGE risk to the obviously unbalanced Boba Fett. If force push is "Push in a pit, die" or anything like that, big figures are going to be less and less powerhouses unless they can somehow avoid instant death attacks.

This is where power creep can get "interesting" as counters are published. For example, I think that Wookie Freedom Fighters are pretty good against Boba Fett, BH, and good in general. If some smaller, generic jedi with Force Push are printed, AND force push allows for instant death into a pit, it is possible that a swarm of pushers could move Bane or the new Revan into the reactor shaft were they belong.

Which makes me think - point costs are not absolute. A figure that is powerful at one time becomes less so as effective counters become popular. A figure that is overcosted becomes useful with the addition of a new CE, or a synergistic special ability.

First, the power creep we are about to experience should be limited to the melee figures. This is a good thing because "melee" itself was unbalanced, and therefore every new usable ranged shooter further obsoleted even new melee figures until the JWM mistake.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the large point cost melee figures are completely disruptive to the game and have -- and will continue to -- largely destroyed the game.

The last few sets have contained far too many melee/Jedi "gatekeepers" that make any strategy other than "GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support figures" impossible to play.

A big part of the problem is that these new high-cost melee figures are completely unbalanced point wise. Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter at 75 points should be be a fair fight against 75 points of other premium costed figures, like Stormtroopers. But he's not, he's completely unbalanced against an equal number of points in Stormtroopers. This is because he never misses them, they can barely hit him, he's take almost no damage from them, they can't survive being hit by him. But the real kicker is this: Everytime Vader does damage to the horde of Stormtroopers, their effectiveness drops considerably. Every time the Stormies hurt Vader is does nothing to his effectiveness.

For example, 15 stormies have 150 hit points and could combine fire to lay out 5 attacks a round at +12 to hit for 50 damage total. That's close to Vader's 3 attacks at +16 for 60 damage total. Given odds, they'll miss half of those attacks, and half of the ones that hit will be nerfed by Dark Armor. This means that the Stormie squad will hit Vader for an average of 10 points a round. At that rate, it'll take 14 rounds to kill Vader.

But every time Vader hits and kills a Stormie (and he could just Sith Grip every round and kill them all in 15 rounds), the overall effectiveness of the Stormies drops. The first one dies and suddenly it's 4 attacks at +12, one attack at +8. When the Stormie horde has taken 60 points of damage, it's down to 3 attacks at +12 for 30 total damage. When Vader has taken 60 points of damage, he's STILL 3 attacks at +16 for 60 damage.

That gives the big melee fighters a HUGE advantage over everything else.

This dynamic has made it impossible to run swarm squads. Impossible to run anything but a GIANT BEATSTICK. Which ultimately ruins the flexibility of the game, the exact OPPOSITE of the result that imporiving the melee fighters were supposed to create. Ever since I started doing tournment play, my interest in the game has been dwindling. I've tried several different tactics, and the only thing that ever works is GIANT BEATSTICK + cheese support. It gets boring really, really fast.

So I'm seriously against power creep. It doesn't balance the game, it doesn't make the game more flexibile, it doesn't create new options. it does one thing and one thing only: it makes all of the money I invested in my Rebel Storm set money flushed down the toilet. That's why I quit playing Magic, and it's eventually what will cause me to quit playing SWM.

Vader JH should be able to kill a bunch of stormtroopers that equals 75, since Vader is just more powerful, besides a scrub without any support from ce's usually aren't that powerful(with a few exceptions like the aqualish assassin), and think about it, in the Star Wars Universe, Vader could easily kill 15 stormtoopers since he has so many force powers and is really good with his lightsaber.

I hate power creep, I think we're at a good enough level right now. If WotC continues to up the power levels of pieces it's going to be Magic all over again, except backwards. Instead of the old pieces getting banned it will be the new pieces getting banned.

I hate power creep, I think we're at a good enough level right now. If WotC continues to up the power levels of pieces it's going to be Magic all over again, except backwards. Instead of the old pieces getting banned it will be the new pieces getting banned.

Why would the new pieces get banned? WOTC Rob intended for the melee pieces to get better, and a lot of the older melee pieces were already horrible pieces for competitve play, so there really is nothing wrong with melee pieces getting better. The power creep in this is really just seems to be balancing out the power between melee pieces and
non-melee pieces, I don't think there's wrong with that.

The only power creep so far in this set i have seen is reserves on a roll of 5, 10, 15 or 20. but even this mite not count if there is a new CE that say your opponent can not get reveres as long as this character remains in play. Reverses 30 i am not so against. as long as these new abilities have counter abilities its exceptable.
As for force powers such as force push it far to early to say. As we do not yet know the full extent or limits of these new powers.

_________________Forgive the hero, thous who would have died

Last edited by dreadtech on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Kazdan Paratus does not cost enough to clam that. 55 point for that chance of reserves is cheep when you take into account he's hit points and other abilities. Even if you take into account that melee character are supposed to be cheaper in contrast to older sets.

_________________Forgive the hero, thous who would have died

Last edited by dreadtech on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Years ago I worked on a game called Star Fleet Battles. One of the things we had to do was come up with the "point value" of units... and we had a LOT more units to balance against than SWM has. We did so through hard math, careful calculation, and the most commonplace of all systems... something we referred to as the TLAR system.

You're right, we have no idea what system Rob uses. However, from the outside, it certainly FEELS like they use the TLAR system exclusively. When you do, you end up with good balance most of the time if your designer is really good... and the occasional balance problem, sometimes serious ones. Magic is famous for this, for example... with such brilliant cards as Skullclamp.

As a veteran game designer who has spent a LOT of time with math and statistics, I will say that the best mechanism of all is the blending of systems, including "gut". My hope is that TLAR isn't the only one Rob uses.

Years ago I worked on a game called Star Fleet Battles. One of the things we had to do was come up with the "point value" of units... and we had a LOT more units to balance against than SWM has. We did so through hard math, careful calculation, and the most commonplace of all systems... something we referred to as the TLAR system.

You're right, we have no idea what system Rob uses. However, from the outside, it certainly FEELS like they use the TLAR system exclusively. When you do, you end up with good balance most of the time if your designer is really good... and the occasional balance problem, sometimes serious ones. Magic is famous for this, for example... with such brilliant cards as Skullclamp.

As a veteran game designer who has spent a LOT of time with math and statistics, I will say that the best mechanism of all is the blending of systems, including "gut". My hope is that TLAR isn't the only one Rob uses.

Oh... TLAR = "That Looks About Right".

Well on that we are just going to have to Absolutely disagree. My opinion is just as valid as yours. and it is just that an opinion.
This is going on what we have seen so far. i mite change my mind when we have see the stats for the rest of the set but then again you mite change your mind.

I know this was not directed at me but Xanthan is just as entitled to he's opinion. OK i am more inclined to agree with you on most of it but not in the case of Kazdan Paratus

Yeah, and I can't even begin to tell you how incredibly sick I am of the complete brokeness that is Mara Jade. That piece is the worst cheese I've ever seen. I pretty much hate everything about Alliance and Empire, from the utterly garbage sculpts to the square bases to the ridiculous units.

I had a 150 pt Grevious/Tambor droid swarm squad completely wiped out by a New Republic squad that had Mara, Luke, Talon Karde and some fringe scrubs. In the course of the fight, I managed to do 20 points of damage to Luke before my entire force was wiped out. I couldn't even shoot at Mara Jade until she was amongst my squad, and once she and Luke were close enough to attack everything I had died in two rounds. it was pathetic, those figures aren't even remotely close to being balanced. The other guy didn't even need his other two pieces. And thansk to Karrde's reinforcements, he ended the game with twice as many units as he started with.

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Your example of Vader JH against a bunch of Stormies is flawed in one thing. The movie iconic Uniques are designed to be better than the scrubs.

Not really, because the Stormtroopers are the iconic low point piece. There the best 5 points you can spend. I'll take 30 points of Stormtroopers over just about any 30 point piece

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I mean honestly, do you think Vader (in the movies) would be taken down by 15 Stormtroopers? A 'entire Legion' (which would be 5,000 soldiers in Roman Empire times) of the Empire's finest were bested by a handful of rebels and a bunch of sticks and stones. The SWM game will not necessarily play out the way you think it will, just because the points add up the same.

Yes, that's called "being broken." And the point you've made is kind of spurious. Do you think 300 Stormtroopers could kill Han Solo? Of course not, Han Solo is a major hero and will inevitably survive no matter how crazy the odds. But the game would be pretty lame if Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight had the special ability plot protection (This character always wins at the end of the skirmish), now wouldn't it?

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Heck, you put Vader JH up against Admiral Piett, and 11 Stormtroopers, and Vader will actually go down pretty fast. Especially since he's going to be taking 20 dmg a hit almost every time now.

Only if the Vader player is a complete drooling idiot and doesn't spend his first two rounds Sith gripping Piett. Piett only survives if

Quote:

I personally like 'power shifts'. I'm against power creep in general, because I too would like to see old pieces remain playable competitively. However, I think it is great that every set shifts things a little bit here and there. It keeps the game interesting, and makes the players re-learn their strategies each time new pieces are introduced. It's what keeps the game alive. If nothing changed, nobody would buy the new stuff, and the game would die.

If it changes too much, nobody will buy the new stuff and the game will die. That's what has happened to every single other collectible game out there, Star Wars won't be any different. Let me stress that: Every single CCG/CMG on the market has lost market dominance because of power creep obsoleting old sets. If the new sets make the old sets obsolete, then you're stuck in a really idiotic chase to always have the latest set, and you can never catch up...meanwhile everything you're buying is becoming more and more worthless.[/b]

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