Stop asking me ‘what about men?’

Everyone who follows my blog knows that my best work is written in rage, or port. But Christmas has gone now so no more port.
Well, at least I still have rage. So back to that.

Recently I have been getting increasingly frustrated with ‘whataboutery’ every single time I write or speak about women or girls.
For those of you who don’t know what that word means, ‘whataboutery’ is when someone responds to a difficult issue or question with a counter issue or question that completely derails the conversation.

Example:
Mai: My research focussed on the murder of women in Yemen
Randomer: uh, this is a bit sexist. What about the murder of men in Yemen? Don’t you care about men?

Example 2:
Pam: I’m really upset with you for stealing from my purse
Mel: What about that time you stole from the local shop? You’re not innocent either, you know!
Pam: I was 9.
(Haha)

Familiar with that? Yep? Thought you might be. Sometimes reminds me of gaslighting.
Okay, so back to the rage. Rage that I need to put in context for this blog to make a jot of sense.

Almost 5 years ago, my father in law died after we had tried everything to help him and begged every agency and service for help. We got the dreaded phone call from police to say they had found a body. It was his. We had to go and identify him. He was a very vulnerable adult struggling with addiction, homelessness and a very complicated trauma history.

At his wake, my Husband and I decided to set up a charity for male mental health and well-being and we named it ‘The Eaton Foundation’ (TEF).

(Someone once laughed at me, ‘Bit narcissistic of you isn’t it, naming a foundation after yourself?’ and then went every shade of red whilst I told them it was my late Father in Law’s name.)

So in 2013 we founded the charity, of which I am still the Chairperson. The charity only supports adult men. We grew exponentially. I mean – from like 10 men to 150 men in one year. In the second year of operation I managed to secure over £270k of funding and funded the renovation of a huge old derelict building which we turned into the first male mental health and well-being centre in the UK.

My husband runs it on the day-to-day, along with his staff and volunteers. We now employ 6 people and have a further 9 volunteers. We see hundreds of men a year who benefit from completely free, lifelong support including counselling, benefits advice, food parcels, housing advocacy, legal advice, IT suite, music and band practice, employment clubs and training courses, fitness clubs, art therapy and so on. Some guys have been coming every day for years. Our clientele is between 18 and 85 years old from every walk of life you can imagine.

Why am I telling you this?

Because in those 5 years, I have NEVER received the amount of abuse and ‘whataboutery’ that I get for my work and research with women and girls.
Most of you know me for my work with women and girls and my controversial tumble into CSE. My PhD focusses on the victim blaming of women and girls in society which includes one of the largest ever literature reviews of every factor in society that supports victim blaming of women and girls (I do mean every factor I could find evidence for – from porn to Hinduism).

I have a career history in rape centre management and criminal justice management of vulnerable and intimidated witness programmes, which is where I built my experience and knowledge of sexual violence, homicides, trafficking and other serious crimes across my courts.

I launched a study last year, exploring the many different forms of victim blaming women and girls can experience. Over 700 people responded. My other recent studies have included interviewing women who have been blamed for rape and abuse, interviewing therapists and support workers who work with women who blame themselves for being abused or attacked and a complex study in which I developed and validated a new psychometric measure of victim blaming of women.
I honestly cannot express how much whataboutery I get.

Here are some real examples:

‘Don’t you think you’re being sexist by only writing about women in this article?’

‘This article is good but where are your studies on men?’

‘I don’t condone murder but don’t you think you are gender biased, only caring about the murders of women?’

‘You can tell the psychologist who wrote this study is a sexist bitch who hates men’

‘This study was ridiculous. All you care about is women! What about men?’

‘You should have your PhD removed. This is so sexist. None of your research is about men.’

‘By only caring about women, you basically say that all men are rapists.’

‘This is great Jessica! But I wonder if you can now build one of these for boys and men and why they aren’t included in the first place?’

‘Why do you only focus on women? Men can get abused as well, you know!’

‘What about men, cunt?’

Honestly, I could go on forever and ever.

In fact, I did one study where there was a free text question at the end and a whopping 9% of respondents chose to use that box to criticise me for not researching men. I say whopping because the free text box didn’t even ask them a question about that and 63 people still managed to use the box to whack in some ‘whataboutery’.
Not only that but a further 14% (over 90 people) left comments that were just plain nasty or abusive. One guy told me that my work was shit and he hopes I fail my PhD. And then left his full name and job title. He was an academic at a university. In my field. He even put some kisses on.
And what perplexes me about all of this, is that I have no such experiences of running TEF.

I can’t tell you about the hundreds of messages or tweets we get asking ‘what about women?’ – because it’s never happened.

I don’t have any stories about the times we got sent a tonne of abuse when we conducted research with general public in the community about male mental health stigma – because it’s never happened.
I can switch over to the TEF twitter account right now and write literally anything about men and nothing bad will ever happen. Our Facebook page has thousands of followers and we never get threats, abuse or whataboutery.

Fair enough, my Twitter is currently at about 4.5k followers but my teeny tiny Facebook page is only on a few hundred followers and I get between 10-20 abusive messages and comments a week – almost exclusively comments about me focusing on women and girls – which usually results in me being called a ‘fat, ugly feminist cunt’ or something along those eloquent lines.

Recently this has all caused me to reflect.

Why don’t I get any abuse when I speak and write about men and boys?
Why am I hailed?

Why did we win 6 charity awards and over £300k in the first 18 months of operation?

Why did I end up on every TV channel and radio in the UK? Why can I launch studies and campaigns and videos and appeals for TEF about male mental health and receive ZERO whataboutery comments?

And why do I get shouted down if I even dare post one tweet about violence against women or rape statistics or murders of women by partners?

Why do I get hundreds of messages and tweets every week asking me:
‘But what about men?’

And actually, this isn’t rocket science. This is uncomfortable but it’s real talk:

Women are socialised into their gender roles (gender roles are harmful, narrow, stereotypical characteristics and expectations assigned to males and females to conform to a societal norm) to not even possess a shred of the sense of entitlement that men have. Women do not read a campaign about male mental health or male abuse or male cancers and furiously tweet back ‘what about women, you cunt?!’ because they didn’t think about themselves when they read it. They didn’t see the campaign as two fingers up to women.

Perfect example: Movember.

Have you EVER in your life seen women kicking off that Movember is sexist? Or that the campaign should include women? Or that focusing on testicular cancer is exclusionary? No. Have you fuck.

Second perfect example: Male suicide rates.

We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma.
In all my years I have never seen women jump on those campaigns yelling ‘women commit suicide too, you know!!’ Or ‘what about women?’

There is ALWAYS someone saying ‘what about men though?’ under all of those issues. It’s as sure as taxes and death.

Like a depressing new catchphrase nobody wants:

‘There’s only three things you can be certain of in life: taxes, death and some randomer yelling ‘what about men?’ every time you talk about women’s issues.’

‘Whataboutery’ comes from a place of misogyny. An arrogant, derailing technique used to respond to a campaign, video, research study, intervention, organisation or communication that screams ‘I don’t care about women, talk about men!!’
And the proof is in the pudding for me. Because when I do all those things with a focus on boys and men, I’m a fucking hero. But when I do all of those things and focus on girls and women, I’m a fat, ugly feminist cunt.

So I need to explain something else. This is not about equality. ‘Whataboutery’ has nothing to do with equality. It’s not about reminding us that men suffer too. Social issues aren’t equal.

When I write a tweet about women being murdered or raped, I didn’t forget men. I didn’t forget they could be murdered or raped. I didn’t accidentally miss them off my tweet. I simply CHOSE to talk about the experiences of females. It is not helpful, or clever, or promoting ‘equality’ to write to a researcher specialising in women’s studies and tell her in three paragraphs why she should focus on men.

It is not useful to ‘send a gentle reminder than men can get raped too, you know’.
If you’re reading this and you know you have done this to someone, please think twice before doing it again. It’s not helpful. It’s derailing.
We do not need to centre men in every conversation we have. Women and girls are valid entities, independent from men.
We need to get to a point where we can talk about women’s issues and get the same level of respect we get when we talk about men’s issues.
Until then, your ‘Whataboutery’ is unwelcome here.

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Published by jessicapsych

Psychologist specialising in victim blaming and self blame following sexual violence. International independent specialist researcher and writer for www.victimfocus.org.uk - Founder of VictimFocus, The VictimFocus Charter and VictimFocus Academy. Founder and Chair of The Eaton Foundation, the first male mental health centre in the UK.
Known to some as 'that woman with the fringe who talks about victim blaming and feminism all the damn time'.
View all posts by jessicapsych

832 thoughts on “Stop asking me ‘what about men?’ ”

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Can’t imagine there’s anything I can say that you don’t already know but –

Perpetrators invariably accuse their victims of abuse. Victim blaming is the same thing on a bigger scale. As with abusers, the only way to deal with them is to not respond. Eventually they get bored and find a new victim.

If you publicly state a view, Jessica, people will challenge you. You’ve created a forum. Expect debate.

I don’t say “what about” to undermine your cause, I say it because we are both of equal value as people. I will help you and respect you to the same extent as any man. No more, though.

Feminists tell men they struggle to cope with emotion and talking about how they feel because they don’t express it. Well here they are, and you tell them basically to shut up. “Open up guys. Express it. You might kill yourselves less if you emote like us ”
“Ok I don’t like being judged for being born male. Nor do I like being treated as suspect because I happen to share a gender with some predatory psychopaths”
“Oh man up and grow up, we have our own problems. We’re not here to listen to you whiners. Now let’s try to understand why Aileen Wournos killed and how she’s a victim too…”

We ARE putting in as much work, and you are calling us woman haters for it. We are trying to get attention to these problems. Feminists and women are telling us to shut up and using gaslighting and shaming.
How do you get this stuff looked at? By making noise. And now you slam us.
We’ll stop coming to these sites when you stop abusing MRA’s and lying about them, on their forums.

If I wasn’t clear, this entire blog is for women to discuss issues to do with being victims of male wrongdoing and wider social issues. Your comment would suggest that a good number of these women are projecting, and are actually abusers. Care to restate your position? It actually makes these people look bad.

I can understand where you are coming from with getting frustrated with trying to focus on female problems, and having men interject to include themselves into conversation….. however.

Feminism is a movement bent on helping BOTH sexes, and their issues. And many issues overlap between the sexes. Domestic violence, rape, abuse, etc.

So if Feminism is on the table as an ideology trying to help BOTH sexes, as they say it’s all about— then you shouldn’t be getting mad when men try to include themselves into conversation— you should be celebrating it.

Also: Feminists always say: “men, open up— give a good cry— tell us how you feel— we’re here to listen and to help you too”.

And when men do— by including this “whataboutery” you write about—- you go on a rant and tell everyone how much that pisses you off.

So um….. which is it? You care about both sexes, or you don’t?
You want men to talk about their problems, or you don’t?
You want to make a focus on the issues (rape, domestic violence, victim shaming) that BOTH sexes experiences, or you don’t?

You know— for someone who claims she is an expert in dealing with the trauma of victim shaming of others— you sure do a lot of victim shaming onto others.

Then can you tell this to all the feminists who try to trap men into becoming feminists by saying that feminism just means equality and is for everyone?
Also, John and I have been studying feminism and its lies for YEARS.

Jessica, you’re doing a good thing. There are a few of us males (sadly, too few) who stand behind feminism and are glad to see women empowering each other. The only people who think feminism is solely about hate are intimidated by it. Personally, I can see why women have hate, fear, disgust, and rage towards men. All you have to do is look at history and see that men have consistently hurt, oppressed, and defiled women across most (if not all) cultures. Naturally, you know this to be true much better than I ever will because you are a woman. I am not trying to explain it to you, just letting you know I understand. I’ll never know the feeling because I’m a male and have been privileged in terms of gender issues because of it. For this, I could never call myself a feminist because I’m not female, but I am certainly 100% a feminist ally. I despise the patriarchy for many reasons. Mostly because it oppresses every shred of decency in humanity. Like you said, it oppresses males too, but nowhere near as much as it oppresses females. I understand this and I absolutely hate seeing women treated the way they are. I enjoy feminist articles and POV. I hate to see how badly women are treated. They are treated as second class citizens, objects, and less-than-human. They are pitted against each other to keep them divided because if they were united, the patriarchy would die. But it seems that we draw nearer to the time for women to stand up and take their place at the top of societies, and a better time that would be. I’m glad there are women out there who don’t bow their heads and walk away from men who challenge feminism. Keep up the good fight. Some of us on the side of feminism.

Did you read the part about her opening up a men’s mental health centre?
So she clearly does care about both sexes.
Why does it push your buttons so damn much to see or hear of anyone advocating for Women? Even this article has triggered you.
GET.A.GRIP!!
Please examine your (probably white or white passing) male privilege and entitlement!!
That’s what the whole article is about ffs.

My grandmother was a very wise woman and lived in times when there was no feminism as such. She would often say about her much beloved husband (my lovely grandad) “if I have a pimple on my fanny you’ve got to have one too” she was right. Thank you for this interesting and thought provoking message.

Reblogged this on silverapplequeen and commented:
I stopped seeing a man (we were just friends) a month ago because of JUST THIS. His constant “What about men” … & that women who talk about #MeToo are largely making it up or “looking for attention”. & we should focus on the “good guys” out there. OK! WHATEVER YOU SAY.

I love the comments from all the men who are proving your points so perfectly. Mansplaining, flooding the comment section, narcissism, whataboutism, gaslighting reversals, accusations of racism (aka white feminism) because someone’s grandfather was allegedly hurt by a woman (and who acts like women of color don’t exist)…. It doesn’t get any better than this for demonstrating your claims. Thank you for this article and for leaving the comments open to the rude boys.

You can talk about it all you like, just stop trying to guilt trip an entire gender.

I’m with you 100% until you say things like”why are MEN like this?” “Men treat us so badly”
And yes we know many of you are directing it at all of us. Like we are all somehow responsible for the man that hurt you, because we are also male. Would you act the same way if race was the common factor? That would be despicable.

If I was abused by my mother, would you accept me asking why women abuse kids? No, it’s an unfair question, so you shouldn’t.

I love this article Jessica. It’s been a talking point on the topics of whataboutery and feminism for me and my husband. Very kind of the MRAs to turn up in your comments for an hilarious masterclass in misunderstanding feminism and unironic whataboutery. Budgies at mirrors comes to mind.

Anthony, men like you end up hating women more than I ever will, because you put them on a pedestal they could never stay on. You are one divorce away from mysogyny, because you don’t see women as flawed people capable of being assholes, just like men. I never put them up there, so when they screw up, I shrug.

You use shaming language because you can’t argue a point. Your opinion is based on your male mother need, to virtue signal to your other half, and all these other women. ” Look I’m a good guy. Please like me” Sad…

White knights always have a motive. Female approval, because it increases your sexual success in the back of your mind.

Newsflash: women can see through it, hence “nice guys” finish last, because these men are just slightly devious leches deep down.

There is no war, only a lack of balance that needs to be addressed.
Not all men are rapists, not all women are victims. Not all women are abusers, not all men are victims.
Not all women are liars, not all men tell the truth. Not all men are liars, not all women tell the truth.

March for paternity rights, then you can talk to me. We need to work together.
If you think everyone deserves rights, then act like it.