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Honestly i find we are only powerless depending on who we are lineing up behind. Lets take TSW for example the everything that the player base has complained about, they have said "ok Lets see if we can make it better"

Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.

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Man........You just wrote some article saying TOR was not hyped...Now you say the developers hype games....I mean which is it....Can we get a little bit of consistancy?

I disagree, I think people were heard loud and clear, especially with TOR, never has so much money been spent, and something gone free to play at that level, due to lack of quality. People argue it is payment method, and even so, that would also mean people are dictating the developers terms of payment...Which I agree with to a certain extent....Not 100% though, as if you put out a quality product (hasn't happend much in ther last 7 years or so), people will pay.

I hate to keep kicking TOR, but it is the latest/biggest example, do you think anyone is going to use TOR as their blueprint for future development? People have spoken with their wallets, and that green is what people listen to...They listen kinda slow, people tried to make the next WoW for 6-7 years, and the development cycle for MMOs is very long 5+ years for some projects, so once something is set into motion, the market/reality can change an aweful lot, from conception, to release.

Saying people have ZERO to do with what is developed/released, and they are POWERLESS, is like saying it doesn't matter how many people attend movies, and those ticket sales do not determine if other big budget movies (as MMOS usually have big budgets) get made.

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I would have to say that Consumers are having a much greater effect on the market than they ever have. Just look at the changes by the largest gaming companies, EA for example. They are totally changing their business models, in an effort to chase the Consumer demand (yes, they know that they are behind). They are moving from physical sales, to digitial distribution. They are moving from P2P to F2P. They are moving from one time sales, to service based offerings.

In the past few years Consumers have kicked the legs out from underneath the MMO Industry leaders, and have taken their money elsewhere. The indudstry as a whole is playing catch up, and is falling all over itself to try to give the customer what they want. It is a great time to be a customer.

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Originally posted by Xthos

They listen kinda slow, people tried to make the next WoW for 6-7 years, and the development cycle for MMOs is very long 5+ years for some projects, so once something is set into motion, the market/reality can change an aweful lot, from conception, to release.

Ok, you mmorpg.com guys are 100% right, we'll go ahead and give you exactly the game you ask for.

Some time in 2018, plus or minus a couple of years.

And only if you can all get together and decide exactly what you all want, in the next 48 hours.

Go!

What? Ya'll still can get any two people to agree what that is? All right, take another (how long his this site been open? eight years?) to make up your minds. After that, give us some lead time for construction. Let's call it 2020, 2025 to be on the safe side.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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you'd think it would take a rocket scientist to figure out that there are millions of people that play "failed" games because not everyone is looking for a lot of the features we talk about around here.

the MMO consumers have plenty of power. The subset of us who want more out of an mmo don't have as much power, because there are less of us.

Sim City 4 was an amazing game. EA bought Maxis and now we have a bunch of over simplified facebook games that have a full box price.

Why? Because the number of people sitting around modelling buildings, or coding mods for sim city 4 is infinitely less than the number of people that are just simply playing the game.

Capitalism ruins the quality of non-essential things. And even some essential things.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

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No, the consumers are not powerless, *YOU* are powerless. The majority of MMO consumers want a particular thing and they get it because the developers are trying to make the most money they can by catering to the majority. *YOU*, who want something entirely different than the majority, represent a tiny niche audience. You represent essentially ZERO money for the developers so they can safely ignore you.

It's like the Green Party in American politics. They're meaningless. They will never win a major election. You can't say that American voters are powerless though, just because Green candidates don't get voted in. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of American voters just don't like the Greens.

The overwhelming majority of MMO players do want casual WoW-style themeparks. You don't. Why do you think your vote matters when your numbers are so insignificant?

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Originally posted by Cephus404

No, the consumers are not powerless, *YOU* are powerless. The majority of MMO consumers want a particular thing and they get it because the developers are trying to make the most money they can by catering to the majority. *YOU*, who want something entirely different than the majority, represent a tiny niche audience. You represent essentially ZERO money for the developers so they can safely ignore you.

It's like the Green Party in American politics. They're meaningless. They will never win a major election. You can't say that American voters are powerless though, just because Green candidates don't get voted in. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of American voters just don't like the Greens.

The overwhelming majority of MMO players do want casual WoW-style themeparks. You don't. Why do you think your vote matters when your numbers are so insignificant?

I don't feel powerless. I haven't bought any of the MMOs released in the last 3-4 years. So far, most are closed or converting to F2P format in an attempt to make back some money since they were poorly received games.

If anything, I feel powerful since I haven't given into the hype of a re-skinned WoW clone. ArcheAge and World of Darkness are well on their way creating well funded sandbox games. I'm not just powerful, I'm doing freaking great!!!

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I vote with my wallet.

Sadly not enough people agree with my taste. In some cases we are on the same page like with SWTOR in others we are far apart like WOW. I would not buy Cata and I will never return to the game.It is not out of spite or hatred. I just do not like that the game has turned into The World of 4Chan with an MMO skin and lobby skeleton. I play games to get away from stress. I deal with ass hats all day long at work, I don't need to find them in my MMO's as well. I know they are in every game but WOW seems to have a very large percentage of them.

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Can we all just finally admit that the MMO Consumers are POWERLESS in the market?

I dont know the proper business term for it, but

just look over the past and present.

Developers get tons of money monthly, and even daily in some cases, from the MMO consumers,

Yet the MMO Consumer's voice is meaningless and powerless.

Developers hype up games, and sell boxes like nothing. no matter how much consumers try to speak out against it, they are silenced. what kind of Consumer Power is that?

With all the money, the Developers cant even add features that the Consumers ask for. Come on...

And why is it the consumers get charged a standard 15$ a month sub fee for all forms of quality?

its like Comcast/Verizon,,, their prices seem to keep going up and up and up, yet the quality stay the same,,,, but nothing the Consumer can do about it, no matter how much they cry about it.

Look at Darkfall for example. Why is this 15$ a month, aka the same Sub fee of MMO like World of Warcraft and Rift, which acutally gets content updates and full of quality.... ridiculous...

charging the MMO consumers the same price for less quality... come on... You- the MMO Consumer- are so powerless!!!

You ask for MMO that arent so WoW Like, yet what they keep giving you? lol You voice is powerless and meaningless!!!

Just accept this reality!! nothing you do/say will change the mindset of Developers that only see things their way and no other way. Developer's Ego has more power than you... You money doesnt say a damn thing, because look at the current genre!!!

lol Powerless!!!

"MMO Consumers" have ALL the power. It starts with your wallet. No one is forcing ANYONE to play these games.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

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Originally posted by chefdiablo

I vote with my wallet.

Sadly not enough people agree with my taste. In some cases we are on the same page like with SWTOR in others we are far apart like WOW. I would not buy Cata and I will never return to the game. It is not out of spite or hatred. I just do not like that the game has turned into The World of 4Chan with an MMO skin and lobby skeleton. I play games to get away from stress. I deal with ass hats all day long at work, I don't need to find them in my MMO's as well. I know they are in every game but WOW seems to have a very large percentage of them.

I vote with my wallet.

Luckily enough people agree with my taste. I would buy MOP and i will return to WOW till my annual pass is up.

I like the game has turn into a lobby game, and that i can quit the group any time if i don't like the people.

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Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Xthos

They listen kinda slow, people tried to make the next WoW for 6-7 years, and the development cycle for MMOs is very long 5+ years for some projects, so once something is set into motion, the market/reality can change an aweful lot, from conception, to release.

Ok, you mmorpg.com guys are 100% right, we'll go ahead and give you exactly the game you ask for.

Some time in 2018, plus or minus a couple of years.

And only if you can all get together and decide exactly what you all want, in the next 48 hours.

Go!

What? Ya'll still can get any two people to agree what that is? All right, take another (how long his this site been open? eight years?) to make up your minds. After that, give us some lead time for construction. Let's call it 2020, 2025 to be on the safe side.

I am right...Was it ever in question? I doubt it!

Making something that isn't WoW with a small twist isn't too much to ask imo. WoW took the LDoN expansion and later direction of EQ and put it on steriods, they didn't just put a small twist into it, and they struck gold...I am not a fan, but enough were... Most mmos in the last 6-7 years were WoW with a small twist, not enough for those tired of WoW to say, "Hey, I love this!"

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Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can we all just finally admit that the MMO Consumers are POWERLESS in the market?

lol Powerless!!!

Uhm actually no we're not. Whenever a game that's sub only loses customers we see a sudden concern for the game and it's quality. It happens all the time. It's happened to WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, AoC etc etc the list goes on.

The problem isn't just the companies the problem is the misinformed or confused masses that jump on anything if it looks shiny enough without doing enough research to see if it has longevity or stability. When people keep paying for crap that's all we'll ever get is crap in the future unless someone takes a stand.

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Originally posted by Jakdstripperthe market only exists because of the consumers....you vote with your money not with your forums posts. remember that every time you buy and subscribe to any game.

Yup.

Somehow, I don't think the makers of TOR believe MMO customers are powerless, since it was unimpressed customers, who became former customers, that sank the most expensive computer game (MMO or otherwise) of all time.

And it might be sinking EA as well, if the rumors of EA looking to get sold are true.