I was at the park today walking my dog. It was more crowded than usual, ten dogs or more; puppies, males, females (all intact), runnning and playing in a swarm. As I've been advised in this forum (and much to the dismay of some owners at the park), I kept my dog leashed all the time and let him play with only 1-2 dogs at a time (and only those I deemed it safe to play with).

Anyway, while me and my dog were away from the swarm, I watched a very scary fight brake out: A huge pit/boxer mix had a dispute over a stick with a pug. The boxer grabbed the pug by the nape, raised him to the air and started shaking him very violently! All the owners circled around them, shouting and screaming to let go. To no avail! The boxer was shaking and shaking the poor pug, it looked like he was going to kill him! Finaly he let go and fortunately, although shocked, the pug wasn't hurt.

We approached the scene after things cooled down and both dogs were back on leash. The know-it-all lady that I've mentioned in another thread (she is a person who won't quit pressuring me to let my dog get bitten) came up to us. She bent over my dog and said to him: "See? This is what is going to happen to you as well". She then turned to me and said I should have been closer, so that my dog could watch and take a "lesson".

I said "ok..." trying to avoid further conversation, but she started talking about how the boxer wasn't really trying to hurt the pug, but to correct him like mothers do to their pups (well he didn't seem very motherly to me...)

Anyhow, besides sharing the shocking experience with you, I wanted to ask: Is there a chance the boxer wasn't trying to hurt the pug, but just to discipline him?

happycats

May 31st, 2005, 08:27 PM

Our dog used to kill groundhogs that way :eek: Trust me there was nothing motherly about it!

melanie

May 31st, 2005, 08:40 PM

nup. but then i didnt see it, i dont mind most dog fights, jsut noisy and annoying. yeah charlie has put her jaw around anothes neck and growled, that was to put in place, she would not hurt.

a growl, nip, raised hackles and a tussle that is noisy is normal, another dog doing that isnt too normal. look my dogs been insome nasty fights, with staffies and the like, but never have i seen something like that, ewven when she has fights with bigger dogs than her, nah i would not let my dog near the rough one.

if it is a put in place incedent it will be swift and your pup will not get hurt, you will see him roll over onto back or tail btw legs, if it goes further than that then i have serious issues. theres nothing wrong with dogs teaching each other its great and natural and helps them, BUT, some dogs owners allow their dogs to be bullies and dont control or train their dogs properly. and if your pup is hurt orinjured by another dog it is in no way put in place stuff, just bullies. a pup being put in place by another dog should not be hurt, just shocked :eek:

although i love parks and such, you are always going to run into dogs in life that are not socialised or have good manners. i jsut try and avoid these dogs, and i wear boots out all the time when im walking baby girl.

but then i would not let my dog anywhere near a pitXboxer or any other muscle breed that i did not know personally. but then i apply that rule to greyhounds, dobies, rotties and all those that have big teeth and strong bodies i dont know.

but then the dog was not injured so it may be regular dominance behavour in that group or for that dog, if itwanted to it could have hurt the other dog, but it didnt so you must consider that also.

oh and as for watching with your dog, i would hightail it at first sign of fight, you dont want to become involved and it can be very stressful to deal with.

and as far as that woman saying 'see you will get that too' to your pup, i would have socked her in the mouth and told her if she has an uncontrolable dog i will contact the authorities.

also mention that your dog is insured (even if not) and that if any dog injures your dog your insurace company will have no option but to sue, i find that most affective. i otfen yell ' if your dog is agressive i tell you now mine is insured, if you hurt her i will have to sue your ass for it'. i generally find they then leash the dog and leave us alone.

perhaps you can find a nicer park in your area, those ppl sound just stupid and a bit mean......

coppperbelle

May 31st, 2005, 08:46 PM

I would have socked that lady in the mouth too. She is an idiot. Any dog that picks up another and shakes it by the neck is trying to hurt it. A mother will not shake, it will lift the pups front legs off the ground but there will be no shaking.
Tell that lady that she needs to educate herself about animal behavior.
People like that make me so angry.

twodogsandacat

May 31st, 2005, 08:49 PM

Gotta go with HappyCats here. My rescue English Pointer who was pretty feral when we got him once pulled a musk rat out of a hole in the river bank and shook it violently. Total time to stick his head in the hole, pull his head out of the hole shake it and kill it - less than two seconds. He now remains leashed and isn't allowed to poke along the riverbank anymore. The shaking is not a discipline thing like a nip or a shove....it is a move used to kill with.

With the size difference involved between a boxer mix and a pug that so called lesson is something the pug may not of survived.

Also when our toy obsessive dog is at the dog park…no sticks, no balls – EVER.

happycats

May 31st, 2005, 08:54 PM

Gotta go with HappyCats here. My rescue English Pointer who was pretty feral when we got him once pulled a musk rat out of a hole in the river bank and shook it violently. Total time to stick his head in the hole, pull his head out of the hole shake it and kill it - less than two seconds. .

It was that quick with our dog too :eek: You turned your back for 1 minute and the groundhog was dead :sad: And when I buried the dead groundhog, he looked like it was sleeping, not a mark on him. My Dad said she broke his neck and back :sad: .

That Pug may very well have internal damage!

ILoveMutts!

May 31st, 2005, 09:24 PM

if it wanted to it could have hurt the other dog, but it didnt so you must consider that also.

You have a point there Melanie, but considering the sheer violence of the scene I'd guess the boxer only grabbed the skin because it didn't know how to bite better...

and when I buried the dead groundhog, he looked like it was sleeping, not a mark on him. My Dad said she broke his neck and back .

That Pug may very well have internal damage!

Oh God I hope not! I doubt the pug's owner got him to a vet. She asked the aforementioned woman to have a look, and that woman concluded that the doggy was alright. I'm beginning to think that she is the biggest danger in the park. :mad:

edit:
and as far as that woman saying 'see you will get that too' to your pup, i would have socked her in the mouth and told her if she has an uncontrolable dog i will contact the authorities.

That woman isn't the owner of the boxer. She has a female dog. And the authorities don't care unless a dog bites a human. :(

Prin

May 31st, 2005, 10:22 PM

All I can say is if that had happened at our park, that lady and the boxer mix's owner would have been put outside. "Sorry, your dog is too violent and possessive for this park" and "Sorry, members of the park don't appreciate your attitude."

I have never seen a dog shake another and I have seen some bad fights. I say he's trying to kill the pug by snapping his neck. If that ***** is the ruler of the park, I'd take my business elsewhere. Priority in a dog park should be SAFETY, not lessons, or sticks, etc.

Nobody should ever tell anybody else what the limits of play or aggression are or that a behavior that someone is not comfortable with is ok. If you find it scary then it is. If you don't want the dogs to do something to your dog, then stop the behavior and speak up. We so encourage our park people to speak up. Maybe our park is different, but we really try to keep the dogs safe and if there is one dog out of line, generally we have a consensus in the park and ask that person to leave.

My park is full of nice people, we do get some despicable people sometimes but not enough to ruin the experience. In another park that I went to while mine was closed, I was so stressed, and you can BET that my emotional state rubbed off on my dogs.

All this to say, if those are the "regulars", that park is not being managed properly and I wouldn't go anymore.

glasslass

June 1st, 2005, 12:22 AM

I don't buy that the pug was unhurt. That is exactly the way many small dogs are killed by larger dogs. I've heard of the skin literally being torn apart from the shaking. When the two large dogs broke through our fence and grabbed Den-Den, you could only see small puncture marks on the outside where he was grabbed. However, the skin was torn loose in the area and he had to have a drainage tube put under the skin. The major damage couldn't be seen. Knowing this is what happens, I rushed him to the vet worrying about shock. Shock can kill also.

Cinnabear

June 1st, 2005, 01:41 AM

Personally it sounds like that woman is off her rocker. :( It sounds like a bad park to be at. Too many hormones loose, don't those people realize untact dogs are more aggresive. Personally I would avoid that park especially with that many dogs and that lady too.

twodogsandacat

June 1st, 2005, 07:54 AM

Personally I would avoid that park especially with that many dogs and that lady too.

I don’t think numbers are a problem really. For Dalton’s first birthday Alison made little doggy gift bags to take to the dog park (this is when I knew we had a problem). By 9:30 the bags were all gone, all fifty of them. People come and go all the way until 11:30. The most we have ever counted all at the same time was about seventy ( a heck of a sight).

The dogs come in all sizes from 9 pounds (nobody messes with Wanda) to 150 pounds and there is seldom a problem. We no longer go regularly as Dalton started ignoring the dogs and hanging out with the people more and more. He also started finding the jerks a lot easier too and often it was dogs whose owners ignored the obvious signs that things were getting out of hand like the dog we continually pulled off of Dalton only to have it wander back over to us again and again and climb back on. Still when he stopped playing with other dogs in order to sit with the humans we knew he had outgrown the dog park.

Yes there were confrontations but I have never heard of anybody ever needing to pay a vet bill. We never saw a dog shake another dog or ‘lock on’ and the only blood we have ever seen with the exception of the dogs that bit their own tongues was a couple of ear nips that stopped after squeezing it with wipes for a bit.

Lise

June 1st, 2005, 08:22 AM

That's horrible.Dogs do not correct they kill this way.I've seen Molly our cairn kill a rat like that in a second and not leave a mark on it.This woman knows absolutely nothing about dogs and is giving dangerous advice.

Schwinn

June 1st, 2005, 11:54 AM

There's a reason it's called a "death shake". It's the snap of the attacker's head that breaks the victims neck. I can't imagine a dog doing that "gently". This woman is an idiot.

kandy

June 1st, 2005, 12:14 PM

I agree that this dog was not trying to "correct" the pug, he was trying to kill it. I hope that the pugs owner took him to the vet, he was lucky to survive the fight and he'll be even luckier if it didn't do any damage that wasn't visible. Sometimes I wish that we had dog parks, and then I hear these horror stories and am glad that we don't. Of course, dog fights can happen anywhere, anytime - not just in dog parks. I bet if this woman's dog was the one getting its butt kicked, she wouldn't be so quick to say that the other dog was just teaching it a lesson!

Copper'sMom

June 1st, 2005, 12:15 PM

That lady is NUTS!!!! :mad:

ILoveMutts!

June 2nd, 2005, 11:08 AM

All I can say is if that had happened at our park, that lady and the boxer mix's owner would have been put outside. "Sorry, your dog is too violent and possessive for this park" and "Sorry, members of the park don't appreciate your attitude."

Well, to be honest, that boxer is in general a very benign dog. He never tries to exert his dominance over other males and there has been only one other incident where I've seen him become aggressive (it was over a female). On the other hand he is untrained and toy obsessive; he even steals balls form kids (it's a people park) or other small items and runs off to chew them alone.

In another park that I went to while mine was closed, I was so stressed, and you can BET that my emotional state rubbed off on my dogs.

Yeah, stress has been a real issue for me since I got little Leon. Only in my case, living in a chaotic city, I get stressed just taking him out the door. It's dangerous enough for people, let alone for small dogs.

Prin

June 2nd, 2005, 12:00 PM

That's the thing though, dogs who are very toy possessive tend to find a toy in a dog park-- whether it's a ball or a stick or a cigarette butt. But just the thrashing incident would have been enough to ban the dog from our park. We're out to make our park safer this year for every dog, not just big dogs.

doggy lover

June 2nd, 2005, 01:22 PM

Lucky it wasn't me I have a habit of losing my temper and my mouth gets away with me. I think that the other people and you should ban her from the park, or not go in there when she is, I wouldn't take the chance with my dog getting hurt.

Loraxp

June 2nd, 2005, 01:59 PM

Lucky it wasn't me I have a habit of losing my temper and my mouth gets away with me. I think that the other people and you should ban her from the park, or not go in there when she is, I wouldn't take the chance with my dog getting hurt.

LOL! Ya me too!! My mouth gets a life of it's own and the insults fly as the rage is released! I can think of a few things at the moment that would have been awesome... no cursing, but I don't think I should post as someone may be offended - slightly.

I used to be a huge believer in not stooping to the level of others, and indeed that proves true in some instances. In cases where people are attempting to prove THEIR "domanince" by sheer creulty I think you need to knock them down (at least verbally!) :yuck: !

Stand your ground and give it back 10-fold!!

Power to ya girl!!!! :queen:

Angeleyes1437

June 9th, 2005, 02:16 PM

It's sick- that woman is sick... I wouldn't go to a dog park like that either. I am very skeptical of any dog, any breed until I get close enough to see how they interact. My dog has been snapped at by little rat terriers and I've even had to pull him away from sketchy big dogs.

Yesterday I was at the park with my sister, my brother-in-law, their dogs Milo (Jack Russell), Chelsea (Pharroh Hound) and my 10 month old Maximus (American Pit Bull Terrier). A man came with his Golden Retriever, Nina and was skeptical because of Maximus. I explained (the same thing I always explain) that Maximus is nice, sweet, great with everyone and it's how you raise the dog. So he came over and saw Maximus... got greeted with some kisses, Nina too and then he was fine. Minutes later I heard growling and snarling only to find Nina with Milo (my sisters Jack Russell) in her mouth shaking him viciously. My sister and her husband were further away than I and all I heard were my sisters screams. I just started running toward them and even tried throwing my bag and jacket at them to try and startle Nina into dropping Milo. As I got closer...which I was fearing would be too late I just slid underneath (in white sweatpants, lol) Nina grabbing her in a bear hug expecting to get bit but I'd rather it be me than my little "nephew"...after all I won't die from it. She got so scared she dropped Milo and went into a submissive pose.

Surprisingly Milo was fine... then Nina's dad decided to tell us she was resource agressive and probably just wanted Milo's ball. People don't think! However, they were all okay- we just started getting our stuff together to call it a day. Nina...barking at her dad telling him to throw a ball caught Max's attention. So he ran over to her and put his face to her's like "Why are you barking?" and she snarled... I was like "time to go". She was so sweet... but had an animal agressive side.

So back to the point, "corrections" are usually quick... most dogs will not attack another dog for no reason. Additionally, they most certainly give warnings for the most part and will not attack unless provoked. That grabbing and shaking you saw is what dogs do to kill small prey... they do it to their little stuffed animals playing (yes...Maximus has stuffed animals- lol)... it's instinct... but definitely not normal dog behavior to do to another dog.

SnowDancer

June 9th, 2005, 04:32 PM

This once happened to my first Dachshund - grabbed by a German Shepherd/Collie Mix - my dog weighed 10 lbs. It was not easy getting him to let my dog go - I was seriously consider dire action. Took my guy to vet for treatment of canine puncture wounds in his neck which save his life. No way was that dog playing or disciplining the pug. The Shepherd actually was ours - we had rescued her. The second time he tried it - our Dachshund forgave him once, although we never left them alone together for 1 minute after that - I was sitting right there on the bed with them and she made her move - I saw it - and put my arm by my Dachshund's neck - she pulled back -it was deliberate. Of course she then moved on to people on the street etc. A sight I will never forget.

ILoveMutts!

June 9th, 2005, 08:17 PM

It was not easy getting him to let my dog go - I was seriously consider dire action.

So how did you get him to let your dog go? I've heard various suggestions for a situation like that: throwing water, kicking the dog that is shaking the other, choking it, pulling its tail, even using pepper spray... What is most effective?

glasslass

June 9th, 2005, 09:01 PM

When Den-Den was being held by two dogs, one by the throat and the other the rear leg, I just ran straight at them screaming like a banshee! The neighbors on the other side later said they never heard anything like it. I don't know what I would have done if they hadn't dropped him!

Angeleyes1437

June 9th, 2005, 09:19 PM

So how did you get him to let your dog go? I've heard various suggestions for a situation like that: throwing water, kicking the dog that is shaking the other, choking it, pulling its tail, even using pepper spray... What is most effective?

There is never a perfect way to handle this situation in the heat of the moment. First off, remember in a situation like this that sometimes dogs will have a fight- it doesn't always mean the dog is vicious... so don't go and end up pepper spraying or killing a dog someone may love just as much as you love your pup. However, I love my dog SO much and would risk my own life to make sure he wasn't hurt. So I relate very much!

In my opinion I have seen and heard (::knock on wood:: thankfully I've pretty much gotten the aggressive dog away from mine before a problem arises) of water working best... but it has to be enough for them to notice it. A gallon works best but if all you have is a bottle, give it a shot. To get your dog out of another dogs mouth you need to break their concentration on the dog... pulling your dog or prying the attacking dogs mouth may only hurt your dog more.

Kicking very rarely works and only injures the dog who is biting (again, my opinion varies on whether or not this is some immorally or poorly trained vicious dog with an idiot owner or just a dog mishap). Try to make a loud noise to startle the dogs or like in my case I was willing to risk getting bit and actually tackle the dog- surprisingly I didn't get bit... don't take this advice unless you are prepared to really get in the middle. You can get hurt breaking up a dog fight. Pulling its tail or pulling the dog away usually only helps during a scuffle... like the beggining of a fight or a doggy warning bite.

The BEST thing to do is prevent it from happening. Like I said dogs RARELY attack without warning, especially to another dog. Pay attention to all of the dogs around you and their body language with your dog. Sometimes dogs are breedist, or even just don't like one specific dog. For instance, my sisters Jack Russell HATES Boxer's... not because they ever did anything to him, but just because they are usually full of energy and he hates that! So as soon as he sees them come near him he barks and growls... although he will (or at least has) never bitten. So when we see a boxer we know to watch Milo. Don't let your dog run run run while you talk talk talk. When I'm at the dog park I may be talking but I'm never making eye contact, my eyes are on my dog. Do I feel rude? Maybe sometimes but anyone with common sense would understand why I'm watching my dog...I'm an overprotective mommy!

I hate to write SOOO much but there is more...lots more and I won't get into it all. However, for instance when you know your own dogs personality you will know what may annoy other dogs... like Maximus doesn't like when other dogs rough play too rough, and when other dogs fight. So whenever this happens he runs over to be mediator and barks and jumps and tries to get them to stop. All this has ever caused were some already mad dogs going at him with a snarling snout- and they are right, he should mind his own business. So once I see other dogs fighting or getting too rough... I grab Maximus by the collar before he can even get into the crossfire.

Angeleyes1437

June 9th, 2005, 09:21 PM

When Den-Den was being held by two dogs, one by the throat and the other the rear leg, I just ran straight at them screaming like a banshee! The neighbors on the other side later said they never heard anything like it. I don't know what I would have done if they hadn't dropped him!

See... you probably startled them and broke their concentration on your dog. Thats what happened when I slid into the dog attacking my sister's Jack Russel, Milo. You have to do whatever works- but most importantly break their attention

melanie

June 9th, 2005, 09:53 PM

depends who the dogs fighting with, if its just another dog like her say a lab or smaller, i just yell and tell her 'get out of it' it generally distracts her which distracts the other dgo...

but recently my girlfriends staffie and charlie (GSDX) were having a real good go at it and i had to put a gentle boot into the staffies butt as she justwould not break her focus on my dog, but it wasnt to hard and she hardly noticed, but it sure worked....

but in a really vicious fight i take my dogs side and we pair up and i will kick the backside of any dog that goes her too hard and if their owner is around i will then kick their backside too, i dont want her to get hurt under any cirumstances and she is getting older now. we have met a few very nasty dogs in our time and we make a formidable little team....

happycats

June 9th, 2005, 10:12 PM

I heard that you are supposed to grab the dog by the back legs ( like your wheel barrow racing) It supposed to stop them right away!
something to do with throwing off their centre of balance.

Don't know if it works or not, I have never tried it.

Angeleyes1437

June 10th, 2005, 01:05 AM

As for kicking them, it can definitely break their concentration... and if neccesary I would definitely fight off another dog for mine like you were saying. I only say to be wise because I feel that if another dog and my dog were to get into a fight I would know chances are my dog was provoked... because I know my dog. (However, there are always exceptions) I would flip out if someone took it upon themselves to kick my dog. Last thing I want is my dog getting hurt or him hurting any other living creature- because I'm a responsible dog owner, you know? However, if the owner was one of these idiots who bring their dog to the park specifically to watch them fight other dogs (which yes, does happen) then I would start kickboxing! lol.

As for the picking up the legs thing... again I've heard of that working and heard of people trying it and getting no response. It depends on the situation... so unfortunately you have to think fast. Truthfully I don't think there is any set way- you need to try whatever you can to save your dog.

twodogsandacat

June 10th, 2005, 06:39 AM

I heard that you are supposed to grab the dog by the back legs ( like your wheel barrow racing) It supposed to stop them right away!
something to do with throwing off their centre of balance.

Don't know if it works or not, I have never tried it.

Yes it works but has one drawback....if the other dog isn’t done yet you may of just turned the table so obviously better if two people take one dog each.

I've done it twice and both times it worked like a charm :) . Of course these weren't viscous dogs intent on continuing the fight and once they were separated it just ended and the dogs went off with their owners to settle down.

It certainly beats the common dog park method of breaking fights…. sticking your hands in trying to grab a collar among two sets of snarling teeth.

Schwinn

June 10th, 2005, 10:14 AM

Grabbing the back legs and pulling will work if the other dog isn't attacking, because it is easier to overcome the dog that way. But if they have a good grip, they may not let go. The other thing you have to be careful of is the dog may think you are "ganging up" with the other one, and may turn on you. Every since Daisy thought my parents dog was attacking my sister, Daisy had a problem with him. I've broken up two fights. The first one was by grabbing the back legs and pulling. She snapped her head around and put her mouth on my hand, then realized it was me. If I wasn't so ticked at her, it would have been funny, the way she looked in my face and went "oh-oh!". She went completely submissive when she realized it was me. The other time I was across the yard when my dumb sister decided she wanted to open Taz's pen with Daisy standing behind her. All hell broke loose, Taz started yelping and Daisy was pulling on his ears growling. I ran from across the yard and wound up doing a flying tackle on Daisy. That seemed to work, but I think more because Taz was trying to get away, and because I was strong enough to lift Daisy in the air and pull her back as I was sliding on the ground. I don't recommend that technique.