The One Who’s Turned into a Girl Again

Editor's Note: This article was written by a former Advanced Training Institute (ATI) student as the Gothard Files articles were being published on Recovering Grace. We have received an outpouring of responses to the articles. Many of these have been from former ATI students who desire for their voices to be heard in hopes that others, as they identify with the words written, will realize they are not alone in their journey.

I’ve been struggling the past month. Events on Recovering Grace have unfolded to a place where I have finally been able to feel vindicated that the niggling little feelings that had long rested deep within my soul were justified. Oh, I would never have been able to actually express those feelings, not because I “couldn’t” or it was “forbidden,” but because I myself did not even realize quite what they were or why they were there.

Some form of IBLP has been a part of my life since before I was born. My parents attended the seminars and will say to this day that the principles they learned there, along with the hard work they did themselves, saved their marriage during the mid ‘70s. I cannot and will not argue with that—I might not have been born. To that end, IBLP and its known associates were household names to me.

When ATI came along, it seemed the perfect opportunity to continue along with the IBLP “godly teaching” that had been espoused to us throughout the years. If truth be told, our family may not have broached the homeschooling realm had it not been for my younger brother, who was born with cerebral palsy. In the early ‘80’s there was little to nothing for kids with special needs, especially in the area where we lived, so my parents decided to use me as a homeschool guinea pig. It was rather exciting for me. I loved the idea, especially because I loved to read and learn, and the idea of accelerating through certain subjects was a thrill for me. By the time I reached my junior high school years, I was so used to homeschooling—and finally old enough for ATI trips—that going back to a “regular” school was actually terrifying to me.

I have often wondered whether I would have been as shy, and such a wallflower, had I attended even a private or Christian school. People look at me askance these days when I tell them I was a shy teenager who had no idea how to relate to her peers. But as hard as I’ve tried to forget my awkward and painfully shy teenage years, I’ve realized that here in my thirties I cannot “just forget.” I must go back, dig up the feelings, the teachings, the attitudes—everything that I was as a part of ATI—and throw it all out on the table to examine.

I learned a lot as a homeschooler, but I credit that to my parents and to my own desire to learn, not to ATI. Because of my parents, I accelerated in reading and history, to the point where my yearly test scores constantly put me at college level in certain areas. My parents also made sure to include additional curriculum beyond the Wisdom Booklets, so that I would be on par with my learning. We took numerous field trips to all kinds of historical and learning places; and rest assured, a paper was due at the end of each of them, to find out what I had really learned. We joined a homeschool group so that I could attempt to have friendships with peers my own age, which was awesome—except for the guilt I often felt due to the vows ATI had pressured us “apprenticeship students” to make.

So what exactly did I get from ATI? Outside of some solid friendships that have lasted to this day (which I am very grateful for) and a trip to Australia, I would have to say my answer would be threefold: guilt, arrogance, and confusion.

1. Guilt. Almost every time students were away from our parents during sessions at the Knoxville conference or any of the other ATI training opportunities, we were encouraged to make vows or commitments—everything from not marrying a divorced person, to not ever listening to rock music, to not watching TV, to remaining single for X number of years, to goodness knows what else, there were so many. I’m not sure what kind of teenager you were, but regardless of “how mature” or “how godly” a teenager is, a teenager is still just a teenager! We had no business making such huge commitments or vows alone. Our brain functions were just not ready for such permanent things, and the stress alone is reason to shield young people from these types of high-pressure atmospheres. Because then what happens when your teenager hears a rock song in a store? Or your daughter sees a cute guy? They feel guilt, then they feel the need to confess, and if they don’t, then the guilt just consumes them. My diaries from those years were riddled with so much guilt that they are painful to read.

2. Arrogance. I literally cringe when I recall some of the attitudes I had towards other people. I looked down upon them because they weren’t as spiritual as me. They hadn’t been to the Basic Seminar! They didn’t know the principles like I did! I was a real Christian and they probably weren’t. It created in me a ridiculous sense that I must “stand alone” for X, Y and Z. Is being able to stand alone important? Of course! Are there times when it is appropriate? Of course! Should it be over every thing we see or hear that’s different from what we learned in the seminars? Absolutely not. I look at Jesus and note the times He “stood alone,” and then I look at the times when he was amongst the sinners and the godless. The dissonance is astounding.

3. Confusion. My view of God was regimented and structured. It was one of someone who would smite me if I stepped a toe out of line from under my parent’s authority, and not just while I was a teenager, but also in my twenties. Legally I was an adult, but the mindset ingrained in me from the ATI teachings was that doing anything against my parent’s wishes (even at 25 years old) would guarantee that something bad would happen to me. That is not the best picture of God to have. How confusing it was to be told that God would smite me just because I made a wrong choice, not necessarily even a bad choice! Jesus did not come to hand out umbrellas. He came to show love, and to be love, and to show us his wonderful grace (John 1:17).

And so here I am, in my thirties, rehashing everything. Again. I’ve struggled to figure out why. Why again? My twenties were spent desperately trying to catch up on how to be a real adult in a real world. My early thirties were spent reeling from the fact that you can follow all the principles and vows and your family’s brand of courtship, and still wind up divorced. And then it hit me: This time, I’m not trying to justify, or excuse, or adapt. This time I’m reaching into my very core, stripping it all away, and looking at one person. I’m looking at Jesus and clinging to the only “commands” that He gave, the ones that He said far surpassed anything that had been written before or since. And that is LOVE. Fierce, incredible love for the One who cares for me so deeply, and fierce, incredible love for those He created.

No other story illustrates my feelings so well as the story of Eustace and the dragon in C.S. Lewis’s Voyage of the Dawn Treader (emphases mine):

“The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt. The only thing that made me able to bear it was just the pleasure of feeling the stuff peel off. You know—if you’ve ever picked the scab of a sore place. It hurts like billy-oh but it is such fun to see it coming away.”

“I know exactly what you mean,” said Edmund.

“Well, he peeled the beastly stuff right off —.just as I thought I’d done it myself the other three times, only they hadn’t hurt—and there it was lying on the grass, only ever so much thicker, and darker, and more knobbly-looking than the others had been. And there was I smooth and soft as a peeled switch and smaller than I had been. Then he caught hold of me—I didn’t like that much for I was very tender underneath now that I’d no skin on—and threw me into the water. It smarted like anything but only for a moment. After that it became perfectly delicious and as soon as I started swimming and splashing I found that all the pain had gone from my arm. And then I saw why. I’d turned into a boy again…”

–Voyage of the Dawn Treader, pp 104-106

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

About the author

Anne was a second year ATI family and part of the program for thirteen years. She considers her family one of the "lucky" ones that didn't buy into everything the institute promised. However, the legalistic teachings from conferences and training centers took their toll on her as a teenager. Her twenties were spent going through the process of understanding what a REAL relationship with Jesus and others looks like. Anne now lives with her little dog in a cozy studio apartment in the south.

88 Comments

I identify with your three conclusions - guilt, arrogance, and confusion. The chronic heaviness of guilt throughout my adolescence and early adulthood due to unkept vows haunted me for a while. Like you, I'm appalled at some of the attitudes and words that I spoke to others, advising or judging them. I feel so embarrassed and to use an elementary term - bad, about it. Thankfully, as terrible as this sounds, I only genuinely used BG snake oil for about 6 months of the time that I was in ATI for 10 years. The rest of the time it was outward appearance only. It was traumatic and psychologically very difficult to maintain a different person on the inside than my outside. Very, very hard, taxing, grueling, exhausting, Confusing.

Thank you for sharing! This resonates with my experience in a number of ways. So grateful that God is meeting you in the midst of this time of evaluation and examination and bringing healing in the deepest places. May you sense His smile today!

Thanks Anne for sharing your story, and I pray you know that love more deeply and continue to share it with those around you.

"Almost every time students were away from our parents during sessions at the Knoxville conference or any of the other ATI training opportunities, we were encouraged to make vows or commitments—everything from not marrying a divorced person, to not ever listening to rock music, to not watching TV, to remaining single for X number of years, to goodness knows what else, there were so many."

Ummm, I'm going to say that this is a clear example of legalism. It is soul-killing stuff. For example, I've mentioned how unkindly I treated my wife because she was from a divorced family (which I either extrapolated from BG or was taught explicitly), because as we all know grace stops at generational sin and divorce. Again, it's an example of making something off limits that JESUS actually makes allowances for, God actually does-so must at times be righteous (Jer.3.8), and that grace certainly extends to, all because we're afraid that to allow what Jesus allows people will abuse that freedom in order to sin. We're afraid that if we declare boldy the love and grace of Jesus people will take advantage.

I know too many situations where women remain in abusive marriages because of Christian leaders requiring more than what Jesus himself requires on divorce. Anne, I'm not speculating about your situation, but I'm confident that the fierce love of Jesus does in fact extend to you!

After reading these articles and seeing new ones everyday I do grieve for these young people. Not so much for what they say happened to them but for how they are holding on to all these feelings. Rehashing the past never helped anyone but only adds fuel to the fire of one who is suffering. Forgiveness takes courage to go on and pray for those who have hurt you. Whether it was your parents or others. As a parent myself we only did what we thought was best at that time for our children. There will always be mistakes in our past lives. Try to go on and focus on the good and leave the rest to God. What would He think of this website?

@carolynI think it is safe to say that EVERY parent was doing what they thought was best for their children. Most of us "kids" ended up with scars and ironically they follow a pattern where we all (kids) can identify with the other kids because we lived it. Stuffing your feelings and glossing over the hurts like they never happened isn't a trade mark of our generation, maybe prior generations but not X'ers on. Your view of God probably defines what you think he thinks of this web site. These stories and comments are actually a way of letting go of the feelings, not holding on to them. I don't think any therapist would say "let's forget about the past, not talk about it and only talk about the future". Respectfully submitted

@Ryan Sapp: While difficult, and seeming like a big stretch, I can accept that my parents thought they were doing their best for me and my siblings. After reading your comment, I can isolate that my biggest hang up is that I just can't wrap my head around how they didn't see any inconsistencies in the teachings or the teachings as compared to the Bible. Without revealing "too much" about myself, one of my parents was very educated in pastoral/doctrinal type topics... I just don't get it! THIS drives me nuts. The fact that I still, as an adult and as his daughter and as having been out of ATI for 8 years, can't open up my mouth and speak adversely of BG in their presence is very frustrating to me. I feel hopeless: I believe they won't ever change their beliefs, and I believe that I won't ever have a decent conversation with them about it. Props to ATI for creating so much distance in the relationships in my family. [sarcasm]

Ryan SappApril 9, 2014

@anneThank you for your article. It's amazing how we all came away with the same harmful affects from the institute no matter where we lived.

@BrumbyOff topic but I think worth noting. If you think about our parents generation, teenagers in the 60's young adults in the 70's and starting families thereafter which we are products of it is interesting to note the number of cults that were prevalent in the 60's, 70's and 80's. From personal experience you had David Koresh, Jim Jones Jamestown, Hare Krishna, Heavens gate, Moonies, IBLP, etc etc. We could go on about generational differences but I truly think it was something our parents were susceptible to. It was the culture. I stand by my comment that our parents were trying their best. Hindsight is always 20/20. I think many parents can now see the fallacies of IBLP but at the time it was a breathe of fresh air that ended up having carbon monoxide mixed in. For those whose parents can't or won't admit, I'm sorry.

The above was actually a very interesting point that my Mom pointed out to me this morning (very self aware I might add). I think it would make for an interesting article on RG coming from a parent and what the culture looked like in the 70's & 80's and what about that drew them to IBLP/IBYC

Our parents glossed over everything like Carolyn is suggesting ( I only recently have seen my parents wedding pictures because they were hippies and heaven forbid their kids turn out to be hippies)

All that to say it has helped my with my anger/bitterness/regret to see that they were trying their best. It can be hard to come to that conclusion if your parents don't see the harm Gothard's teachings caused in your life and countless thousands.

"Emee"April 9, 2014

Agreed, so much for ATI's promise over a decade ago to 'turn the hearts of the fathers to the children' and vice versa :(

@ Brumby, I understand that feeling of extreme frustration, almost depression--my parents will probably also never admit that ATI was/is wrong. This leads to boring, innocuous conversations with them such as 'How's the weather in your area?' I'm glad that in the past year they've listened to my objections and supposedly read "A Call for Discernment", even if it seemed to do them no good. I'm praying that God would pull the scales from their eyes so they can see the actual truth as well as the harm done.

@ Anne, Thank you SO much for writing this article! You elucidated feelings that I couldn't really articulate, and it's nice to know I'm not the only shy wallflower produced by ATI/A. Your perspective was so freeing, not just in relation to the vows I made as an apprenticeship student, but also as a child in Children's Institutes: "We had no business making such huge commitments or vows alone. Our brain functions were just not ready for such permanent things..."

But the icing on the cake was your conclusion, especially, "Fierce, incredible love for the One who cares for me so deeply, and fierce, incredible love for those He created." May we all experience God's amazing unconditional love and then be able to extend that love to others, especially those still trapped in ATI.

BrumbyApril 9, 2014

@Ryan Sapp: I do concur regarding the fact that many cults and extreme views were present and popularized to some during the 70s. That's about as deep as my knowledge goes about that fact, so I an article about this topic would be very interesting. I have wondered about this.

Nancy2April 10, 2014

@Ryan, just as today's society is very divided, so it was in the 60's and 70's. I graduated HS in 1973, married in 1977.

Not everyone rebelled against the establishment. Not everyone was looking for a 'New Way'. But then not everyone was expected to live the empty 'Niceness' of the 50's and early 60's.

I found that many of those who were heavily influenced by the cultural revolution were moving through life conforming to a Christian Consensus without a foundational conviction for doing so. On TV they would see June and Ward Clever always perfect, yet in their own homes fathers were disconnected and mothers were often frustrated. There was a huge disconnect between what was to be seen by the world and what was being lived. The questioning of the establishment was born out of wanting to smash the lie.

This is why I personally never needed to rebel. My parents never insisted on 'Nice'. Instead they insisted on truth. We grew up being allowed to say those things that others felt was too irreverent to utter. During those expressive Tim's Mom would always look at us and ask, "Feel better now? So what's your solution? Need to brain storm?" She felt if King David could express his angst why couldn't we express ours. How does one rebel against an open ended question with no judgement attached?

What I find interesting is it seems like the children that grew up in ATI/IBLP are in the same place as those who rightly rebelled against the lies of the 50's.

In my opinion, it wasn't the rebellion against the culture that was wrong, but the form in which the rebellion took. In some circles it became rebelling against bondage by embracing bondage.

Huge subject that is impossible to tackle in a short space. I do hope your mother joins in this discussion writes about her experience during those years.

Nancy2April 10, 2014

times not Tim's

Auto correct is my nemesis.

greg rApril 10, 2014

@Nancy2: your comment is amazingly like muchof what Francis Schaeffer (sr) said again and again: what the kids of the 60's and 70's rebelled against NEEDED revolultion, but these kids had nothing better to replace it with. It's those who wanted (still want ?) to keep the 50's that could not, would not, see that.

Nancy2 said about 50's tv shows---"There was a huge disconnect between what was to be seen by the world and what was being lived."

I was born in the 50's and grew up seeing tv and movies degrade into something that used to be sold from inside a stranger's trench coat. TV and movies began to show plots featuring so-called "real life" i.e. divorce, shacking up, mindless sex, curse words galore, graphic and detailed violence ---They took what should be a model of a good life and substituted programs that show the gruesome gutter of life and guess what--- we now have several generations growing up and influenced thinking THOSE THINGS ARE NORMAL LIFE----My students were stunned when I told them that if these modern day tv shows were shown in the 50's, those people would have been arrested!!!! Talk about ironic swing of the pendulum!!!Is it any wonder Christian parents of the times, seeing the degredation of their society were attracted to BG and others promising that their families could be Ward and June Cleaver.

Nancy2April 10, 2014

greg r, you are right it is very much what Francis Schaeffer wrote about. But it is also what I lived and witnessed from my limited scope.

While one segment of the Christian community was following Gothard's teachings, another segment was also addressing the needs of those disillusioned with the world they found themselves in and addressing the problem from a different direction. The choice as I saw it in the 70's was run from the world or offer a real understanding of man's dilemma and God's answer in Jesus, and Jesus alone.

My parents opened our home for Bible studies lead by my friends and I when I was 16. We invited teens from every segment of our school's population. We were not afraid of the unsaved or differently churched. My parents would sit back and listen to our conversations. The only time they would make comments is if they thought their life experience could help those asking questions. They would give their real life examples for others to ponder. We talked about anger and righteous indignation in a fallen world. We talked about how to move against romantic notions within Christianity to the real grit of loving those others deem as unloveable. It was an exciting time.

Many of my own convictions concerning boundaries within Christian ministry fall in line with Francis Schaeffer's and Os Guinness's writings. Honest dialog is what I try to encourage as I interact with others. I'm not always successful, but I do try to live approachable and open.

This is why I put a lot of myself into my posts. A person's walk with God is seen in their moment by moments as they move through life. It isn't what we say we believe, it's how we live. This is how Gothard deeply hurt those who trusted him, he lacked in the living as he broke his own principles.

Bottom line is I do believe in the necessity of rebellion against those things that hinder man from developing a meaningful relationship with God as they freely walk with the Holy Spirit. I have lived 58 years as a rebel.

greg rApril 10, 2014

Another way of packaging this conversation would be: what Bill saw as "successful living" and what GOD sees as HIS KIngdom come, HIS will be done... are far , far , apart. The Kingdom values/ethics will ALWAYS go 'bump' with the existing culture, hence the need for some kind of 'holy rebellion'. the rebellion is against the current kingdoms and order, and is a spiritual, ethical, revolt. This is why Jesus is so threatening to the status quo, and those who champion the status quo.

Paul was NOT an anarchist, but neither did he blithely say "well, if GOD sovereignly allowed Rome to do x, y, and z.... so be it. " The obedience of Romans 13 must be seen against this backdrop, or it is thoroughly misunderstood and misused.

Nancy2April 10, 2014

Amen!

Nancy2April 10, 2014

esbee, exactly what you are talking about is what I was referring to as "rebelling against bondage by embracing bondage."

LuanneApril 11, 2014

It is interesting to note that BG looks like he stepped out of the 1950's and he made everyone who followed him look like that too. As if dragging everyone back to Bill's childhood would change the world.

Ryan, well said. My Dad shared a similar sentiment with me recently (referring to your comment about cultural/societal eagerness for IBLP in 70s). I've shared it here if you're interested:http://emuf.blogspot.com/2014/04/encouraging-words-for-hoodwinked.html?m=1

KevinApril 10, 2014

I enjoyed your dad's blog post Emily. Thanks for the link. I'm glad to read he is recovering grace and has a wise perspective on his past involvement with IBLP and is looking to the future with positive changes from lessons learned.

Ryan SappApril 10, 2014

Exactly what I mean Emily. Well done Dad. Bill was nothing more than a very good salesman with a slick presentation.

greg rApril 11, 2014

@Luanne: I wanted to post that Bill was like a short Ward Cleaver with a bible in his hand....and then I thought about poor June... can't do that to her....

It is only through re-hashing the past that I have been able to come to terms with how I was raised, and move forward.

You are basically saying I should pretend that what happened in my past has had no effect on who I am today. Unfortunately, my parents also believed they were doing what was best for me and my siblings, however, that doesn't excuse their decision to follow and implement the teachings of Bill Gothard. Teachings that have negatively effected my life and faith. ATI/IBLP was not a "mistake" that I made in my past life. It was a way of life that was imposed on me during my most formative years.

Are your children expected to just forgive and forget the mistakes that you have made in raising them, so that you can avoid responsibility for any negative emotions and hurts they may have toward you?

Deanna, Certainly not. I know that the time will come very soon when I will need to beg my children for forgiveness. I am still very much in shock, having just learned of all of this within the last month. I am numb one minute and crying the next, grieving for the family life we could have had, had it not been for TRYING always to look and be perfect. then the enormous grief and guilt as we FAILED miserably. many years of Knoxville and all the stress to be perfect and then the financial stress to stay in the ATI program on one income....an never any money to send the kids to the programs at the centers. I grieved missing those opportunities, only now do I see it was a mercy that we had no money for the training centers. I will apologize to my children as soon as I can find my way through this pain. Grace to you dear Deanna. Most parents try to do the best they know how.

@ CarolynJust as there is not a fingerprint identical to another, there is not one correct way to deal with past hurt and pain.

Your comment suggests that you have the corner on how humans are to deal with past hurts. I am suggesting that just because a method worked for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone else. Just because a method worked in raising your children does not mean it will work in raising someone else's children.

How can I nicely say that your dismissiveness of these young peoples stories is mean, coldhearted and unChristlike.

What would God think of this website? I think his comment would be: "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Carolyn, I can only hope you're joking, but it seemed like a serious post. "Rehashing the past never helped anyone" might go down as one of the top 5 most ludicrous statements on this site, and this site includes Alfred. So...

As a parent, you must feel incredibly guilty for being duped by a con artist like Bill. I can understand that as a parent of two toddlers myself. When I look at them, and how incredibly innocent and beautiful they are, it would kill me to think I failed them by leading them down a road of extreme guilt and false beliefs. I can see why you would want to deflect the blame and pass it off as, "We were just doing our best." But that statements belongs at the end of a long book of apologies for screwing up in the first place. My parents were just doing their best and I don't hold a grudge against them for THAT. I do hold a grudge against anyone who NOW continues to hold onto the ideas and thoughts that "Bill was well-intentioned" and "it's just SOME of the stuff he's wrong about..." Nope. He's wrong about it all, beginning to end, and it's ruined a lot of lives. We all are "Doing our best" but that doesn't mean it's not a big deal to ruin lives.

Honestly, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on why people shouldn't share on this site how they feel. It seems to me that you're not being honest with yourself about 1) how big of a mistake you made and 2) not wanting to hear about how universal the feelings are.

Carolyn, I'm going to be blunt. You just gave some terrible advice. By that I mean it's really, really bad. You didn't say anything that was wrong in a "technical" sense, but what you are failing to grasp is the depth of the damage that has been done and the length of time that healing can take. If you cut your finger, it will heal in a few days. If you get third degree burns over 30% of your body, the healing will take a lot longer and it will involve painful treatments and leave long term damage. That pain isn't imaginary; it's real and you can't simply wish it or will it to go away. When I'm in pain, I'd like nothing better than to "let it go" but pain has a way of holding onto you sometimes in the course of injury and healing.

Let me put it another way. In our area a man is about to be charged for the murder of two young women whose bodies were found many years ago. The cases have been unsolved until now. Shall we just say, "Oh, what's the use of rehashing the past? It only adds fuel to the fire. Let's just pray for the perp and move on with our lives?" Imagine that it was your child that was murdered. I'll give you a minute to form the image in your mind. Not a pleasant thought, is it? You wouldn't want anyone to treat your grief and loss as something insignificant and unworthy of being requited but see that's what you are doing to the people whose lives have been so impacted by the hypocrisy, abuse and religious bondage perpetrated by this man and this ministry.

You are minimizing their pain, treating it as irrelevant, just as they have been treated for so many years. And it's got to stop. The advice you are giving is flippant and only serves to short-circuit the path that leads to healing and forgiveness. It's like telling an anorexic that all she needs to do is eat, or telling an alcoholic that all they need to do is stop drinking, or telling a drowning person that they just need to swim, or telling a bereaved and grieving family to just remember the good times. In every case, you're talking about someone who is overwhelmed and struggling on a journey, a pathway that may take considerable time to travel.

In the case of people who are posting in RG, they have been ignored, marginalized, sidelined and/or waiting in the hopes that at some level, what the went through will be at least acknowledged. Some things lost can never be regained, but lives can be rebuilt. It - is - a - process. It is not something that a coat of paint or any advice beginning with "all you have to do is" will fix.

One other thing: "We only did what we thought was best" can pretty easily be interpreted to mean "I would prefer not to face or take any responsibility for the fact that I might have really hurt my children". Parenting is an inexact science and we will make mistakes, but we owe it to our children to take responsibility for them. Forgiveness is a choice you can make, a one way street as it were, but reconciliation goes both directions and involves repentance on the part of the offender and forgiveness on the part of the offended. If you as a parent know that you hurt your kids, you sit them down. You look them in the eye - you say, "I was wrong by.... " - after you give them complete freedom to say whatever they need to say. That takes courage and it is not easy. I've been there more than once, and my kids aren't even grown yet.

Try another approach - rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. And believe me, there's been plenty of occasion to weep where IBLP is concerned.

"One other thing: 'We only did what we thought was best' can pretty easily be interpreted to mean 'I would prefer not to face or take any responsibility for the fact that I might have really hurt my children'. "

You nailed it on the head. We all are doing the best we can to raise our kids and we all make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes can have devastating consequences and we have to be humble enough to apologize to our children if needed. It can be essential to their healing, if they were hurt by our decisions.

I have just resigned myself to the fact that I will need to have a therapist fund for my children much like their college fund. "I tried my best but maybe professional help will heal the damage I unknowingly caused" :)

"Emee"April 10, 2014

a therapist fund is a brilliant idea, Ryan, maybe you should patent the idea in order to fund it! :)

LoriApril 10, 2014

Before going the therapist route, you might want to check out the book "Why Christians Can't Trust Psychology" (by a pastor who used to routinely send people to pychologists for counseling) - very humbly and compassionately written - and to keep eyes and ears open for a pastor who is sold out to the gospel of grace to counsel your kids (or, better yet, prevent the need for it). I started out meeting with therapists but it didn't really help - sometimes made things worse. It was mega-doses of the gospel of God's grace in Christ and grace-filled Christian friends which finally gave me peace, joy, and freedom. Sounds like you're already on the right track!

horseApril 11, 2014

Lori,

While I don't doubt that there are situations where a pastor is a more appropriate counselor than a trained therapist, I cringe at the idea that people trained in the use of psychology are to be avoided in all situations. Perhaps that's not what you meant. Perhaps what you meant was that people should seek the right kind of person for the given problem. Someone who has experienced spiritual abuse is best served by a pastor - is what you meant? Surely you're not suggesting that people with mental illness should avoid therapists trained in psychology.

Ryan SappApril 11, 2014

@Horse

I was going to let Lori's comment ride but since you weighed in...I totally agree with you. My personal belief is that Christians rely too much on Pastors for therapy when they are not always equipped to do so. Science, studies, research and the likes have progress way past what a Pastor may have knowledge of. In my life I have seen a secular Therapist and honestly I would not go to a religious Therapist/Pastor. Others may, I can not:) My therapist was immensely helpful and though I don't see him now I consider him a dear soul.

I'm first to admit that my go-to method of moving on from any past negative experience is to ignore it, "let it go," etc. A recurring thought that I have ever since leaving ATI is, "How am I ever going to kick my past???" I want/ed to just "drop it", move on, live life! I feel now that what I actually was doing was kicking my past/issues further down my path in life, and I kept catching up to them, and just kept pushing them on down the road for a rainy day. I have reluctantly realized that the key to kicking my past must be facing it and appropriately processing it, because ignoring it and avoiding it hasn't improved anything! Also, because of my fear and weariness of addressing my past, I don't think I have been really ready until this past year. My past does involve other issues than ATI, but I do not minimize the role of ATI in my negative past experiences. I have obtained some closure on my past, merely reading the article on RG disproving the biblicality (is that a word?? :) ) of ATI/IBLP teachings alone. Knowing I'm not alone has helped a lot! No offense, but finding out that BG is a total creep is just the icing on the cake.

I love how you put that: "kicking my past/issues further down my path in life, and I kept catching up to them...I have reluctantly realized that the key to kicking my past must be facing it and appropriately processing it". Best wishes for all of us, as we work through the lies we were taught so that we can give them a proper burial (and not see them zombie-like ahead of us in the future)!

Actually, talking through terrible things that happened to you in the past is extremely helpful. It's a common therapy for dealing with abuse or traumatic experiences. So saying that "rehasing the past never helped anybody" is totally inaccurate.

Carolyn, do your children still support your decision to be a part of ATI? If not, I urge you to really listen to them and extend some grace. It may be true that you just did what you thought was best, but that doesn't mean it wasn't damaging. Simply listening to them can go a long way towards healing.

"Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep." (Romans 12:15)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God." (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)

In order to forgive you have to identify the offense you're forgiving. I didn't know how to process it all for a long time, how to forgive, because legalism was the only picture of God I'd ever experienced. I had always been told it was me when I didn't measure up. It's unreal how hard it is to go back and dig up all of it but I had to in order to rebuild my picture of God, I couldn't just go on and build another picture of Him without first clearing the wrong one. I know my parents sincerely only wanted the best for us but that doesn't change what happened.

I forgive and I'm a happy free person and I do know RG helped and I've moved on but I'm so happy that RG is there for the other ppl who are going through what I've made it through. Forgiveness is not forgetting or ignoring, ever. It takes courage to not only forgive but to put yourself out there to help others, I would suggest more courage than forgiving takes.

He would likely by glad to see the IBYC/IBLP/ATI false teaching and the destructive results out in the open. Just leaving the bad to God is not a biblical concept. If it is only a rehash of the past, then it is not that helpful for the authors personally, however being honest about the past and an evaluation according to scripture with others who had similar experiences may well be a step to healing and moving on with Jesus and His grace. As a father and grandfather, I understand your heart to do what you thought best. For many the IBLP/ATI experience was hurtful and just destructive to their spiritual and emotional growth and relationship before God. Working through that is not a lack of forgiveness, but a healthy walk forward. It is wise to let them do so or even facilitate it without shame.

Carolyn, Anne has shared a beautiful story of rediscovering who she is, who God created her to be. I believe He calls us to "bear one another's burdens" and to "grieve with those who grieve" and so I think that this web site allows us to do that. Beth is correct in saying " in order to forgive you have to identify the offense." It appears from reading these stories that many young people just buried their past, and moved on without actually understanding the damage. Now they are coming to terms with their past, examining their lives and I am so thankful that they have this website to connect with each other.

These articles also serve to help those who may currently be caught in these false teachings, either through ATI or other systems. I myself was never in ATI, but similar teachings invaded my church a few years ago and caused a split. Reading these stories helped me to work through what had happened, and to examine what I truly believed instead of what had been pushed onto me.

Carolyn, I too am a parent that made mistakes and my children were greatly wounded under a community alot like ATI. I don't think that there is any way to really understand the degree of confusion and wounding that each person has gone though. When "truth" has really not been true and all you have ever seen or done, whether it was really godly or not, has been under the banner of "God" , it is difficult to know the true character of our living, loving Christ. It really messes with your thoughts. It was woven into our hearts over years and it may take years for our minds to be renewed. To process, and bring thoughts into the light, and test them and understand others battle is not rehashing for the purpose to not forgive but to consider if the processing is true and correct. Everyone needs time to take each thought and scenario and reinterpret it through a different lense; to look for what was trully happening. Articles like this are beautiful because these are the truths that set us free. A young child, or a teen that has been shamed and pushed to perform in order to recieve acceptance or love, and has learned to dole out their love in the same manner, has a whole life, heart, mind to be rewired. Please do not underestimate the degree of the wounding. Maybe to you it is like they have had a surface wound that needs a bandaid, but in reality it is like some have been hit by a semi truck and their spiritual lives are in the balance, in need of tremendous healing. Forgiveness will come that is genuine and life giving, but to push them to forgive and forget before there is understanding is like telling them to stand on a broken leg that has not been set. I am just asking for grace as they process and heal. I think the Lord loves this website and all who come here that are bravely stepping into the light.

Anne, May God continue to bless you as you walk in the light of His love and freedom.

Thank you for sharing with us that stressful time of living under an unnecessary vow. I can't imagine that kind of burden. I love that you are pulling off the layers of another man's unhealthy teachings.

@Nancy2, Anne: I recall gradually signing off on a booklet of 17 basic commitments over the course of about 5 years. I dreaded every single signature... I thought if I spaced out my vows, I could gradually incorporate them into my life and become slightly more godly with each autograph. Ha! :) Finally, at about age 17, I signed the remaining 5 or 6 commitments out of necessity to keep my parents from questioning my inward beliefs. I knew that down the road, I would hear about how I breaking these commitments, but in the moment, it kept the peace.

Brumby, when my husband accepted The Lord as his Savior when he was 11 he said the church leadership sat him down and made him sign a list of things he would never do. If any of their rules were broken he would be brought up before the church disciplinary committee. I had never heard of such a practice. I couldn't believe anyone would expect such a horrible thing out of a person that only longed to know their Savior.

Anyway years later he was introduced to me on a blind business date and that list was tossed out the window. Starting with going on a picnic, taking our shoes off to wiggle our toes in the grass. I couldn't imagine a rule about being barefooted. For the first time since he was 11 he allowed himself to play. I was his rebellion against man made rules, and I did nothing to cause him to compromise his God given convictions.

My Grandmother always said, "Play little children, play. Just be careful as you play. But by all means play."

Like I said I cannot imagine having my freedom stolen like you had yours stolen. It breaks my heart.

BrumbyApril 9, 2014

@Nancy2: Thanks for sharing back with me. I hold everyday liberty that much dearer to my heart. My appreciation of nature, peoples' personalities, diverse foods, and above all - animals, is heightened based on my past. I think I'm able to live each day a little more mindfully now, having left a cult. I say so without justifying the past, but appreciating the present and future. :) Thanks, Nancy2.

Nancy2April 9, 2014

@Brumby, your love for life is something I recognized right away and appreciated.

Years ago I nick named my father "King Parks and Recreation". He loved life abundantly. He said man could make a counterfeit of just about everything, but they would never be able to counterfeit Creation. Coming from a family of all girls, I was his adventurous daughter. He wanted his daughters to be strong in every way. He said strong women require secure men. I believe ATI/IBLP was established by an insecure man.

To do less than to love and enjoy life abundantly is to embrace insecurity.

Thank you, Anne. This is a lovely, helpful post, especially since it points us all to the person of Jesus. Here in my 30's, I'm still getting to know who He really is. And, wow, is that revolutionary!

I was not an ATI/IBLP kid, but only just barely, because mom was divorced after my pastor-dad left her. Otherwise, we were exactly in line with most of the same legalistic ways...if not much worse. (I'm sorta jealous of your chance to join a homeschool group. Lucky!)

With 4 kids of my own, we nearly always have a Narnia audiobook playing somewhere. One of these days, perhaps I'll no longer be overcome with emotion when I hear one of C.S. Lewis' many descriptions of God's great love and plan for redemption...irregardless of silly, puny "vows"/works/loveliness on our part. But for now, it gets me every time. Fierce, incredible love indeed.

I am a parent that immersed my children in IBLP/ATI for many years. I knew Bill's theology was not always sound, but I always used to say that we went for the practical information and materials that were useful in our home education program, not for his theology. We did that a lot in the early days of home education (especially before it was even legal in our state). We took a little from this program and that program to try and construct the best program we could. It was hard work. The ATI offered what appeared to be a comprehensive approach to home education, one of the first we had ever seen, so we embraced the materials, but still felt no obligation to Bill's theology. It wasn't until about 8 years ago that one of our daughters had the courage to approach us, cautiously, and try to communicate what we had really done. As my wife and I went through the "buffet line" of ATI materials and teachings, we felt we were able to sort out the good from the not-so-good, to select what we wanted and leave the rest behind. What could be the problem with that? Plenty. I was naive to the principle that our theology impacts every aspect of our lives. (This is a good spot to say "Duh!") I assumed that if we could go to the occasional conferences and embrace selective teachings and materials, that our children would also be able to go and live among these teachings for months and years at a time, and do the same. The polite word is naive. the real word was stupid! They were literally immersed over long periods of time in life issues and activities that were steeped with questionable theology, and often, even worse application of both the good and bad theology. I could go on about the many things they would relate to us through the years, and somehow I would kind of attribute it to being "part of the process", but RG has captured most of it from the postings of those who lived it. So before my daughter and her family were moving from our hometown to a new job up north, my son-in-law called me and said that my daughter really needed to talk to me before they leave. I was deeply curious, wondering what I could have done "this time." We were long removed from ATI by now, but it soon proved clear that ATI was not removed from my daughter. It was hard to hear her deep pain as she tried to share with us what had been on her heart for so long. I started to see what my daughter was trying to say to us, as hard as it was for her. I asked her with tears to forgive me. She did. I have asked her sisters and her brother for forgiveness for our failure to protect them when they needed it the most. And this process has been ongoing because the emotional trauma runs deep and reveals itself layers at a time. I am grateful that they have forgiven us. They have extended grace to us, and it has helped to affirm our relationships with each other. There are other lessons that have made themselves known to me since then, but the one that stands out to me, the tip of the proverbial iceberg, is that I released the care and welfare of my children into the hands of another, and I pray that I will never forget that painful lesson, nor the grace my children gave back to my wife and me!

Larry, I love how you have made yourself so approachable to your children since you discovered the problems with this organization. I know God will use your deep love for your children to bring further healing. We all do our best, we all fall short, we all need His mercy and grace. My prayer for you and your family is that you continue to feel His Mighty Hand lifting you up.

This sounds exactly like us! I agreed with about 90% of the Basic Seminar and through away the 10% I didn't agree with.. But when we watched the Advanced Seminar, I started really disagreeing with a lot of it. Still, we had our eyes fixed on those "precious Wisdom Booklets"! We wanted to know what was so special about them and why we needed to go through all this teaching to get them.

We are still at the point where we are thinking as you. We do still using the Wisdom Booklets and we like a lot of there resources, but we have decided not to ever go back to an ATI conference or participate in any other IBLP ministries (Mission Trips, etc).

My question is: Was it the Wisdom Booklets that affected your daughter? Or was it more the ATI programs? We try to treat the Wisdom Booklets as any other book.. We tell our kids that any time someone is teaching you something about the Lord, you need to know the Scriptures yourself and check the sources or verses they are using. I feel like this true for ANY kind of teaching, not only ATI. If the Pastor on Sunday is preaching from a section of Scripture, you need to study it yourself and see if what he is teaching is right.

So, I guess I'm wondering what specifically affected your daughter because I don't want to make the same mistake.

Larry,Thank you for sharing your story. As parents, we all make mistakes. You and your wife were sincerely trying to do what was best for your kids. I really admire your humbleness and your willingness to ask your children for forgiveness. Your comment is a very powerful one, and I expect that it may be helpful to many people.

You know, we only went to one ATI conference as a family and we thought that it was so strange that they wanted to separate the kids into different programs, especially for ATI families, since everything is so focused on keeping the family together and doing unit studies. We expected a bit more family involvement.

I didn't know much about Bill Gothard at the time, but it seemed that every workshop or lesson he taught, he would get everyone to make a vow of some kind. I remember thinking of the following verses:

"When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow. It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay. Let not your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake. Why should God be angry at your voice and destroy the work of your hands?" (Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 ESV)

"But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation." (James 5:12 ESV)

There are others, but the basic thought I remember having was, "Why is everyone so quick to make this vow? Are they thinking about what they are saying?" I remember intentionally NOT making the vow that Bill was spoon feeding and deciding to pray about it because after all, in my mind, making a vow to God is not something to take lightly.

I also remember thinking, "I wonder if they get the kids to make vows like this?" I didn't really dig any deeper, but THANK YOU for writing this article, because it confirmed what I was afraid of. Our kids are not in a place to make these huge vows at the age of 10 or 12. I'm all for conviction, but you need to let the Spirit do the work in the heart of the person. You cannot force everyone through a vow as if that's going to "protect" them from evil.

Excellent thoughts and post, esp. the words about vows. General hermenuetic rule that Bill never got a grasp on: let the NT, especially the words of Jesus Himself when possible, interpret the OT. NOT , repeat NOT the other way around. Great vexation and discomfort of a wicked sort will happen when this is not applied.

Excellent post, Larry. In your case you used the ATI materials in the way recommended by those who advise us to "eat the meat and spit out the bones", but your children were choking on unnoticed bones and you couldn't know the damage until they were mature enough to recognize it and acknowledge it and courageous enough to let you know. Your story is very grace-filled.

We cannot say too much, too often about the destructive guilt which was created by those vows we were urged to make. Someday, I might write more about how the long list of "commitments" drove me to the brink of a mental breakdown; but the memories are still too tender. Sadly, the idea of making commitments to guarantee good behaviour has taken root outside of IBLP. I was deeply disturbed several weeks ago when I attended a very mainstream church with no known ties to Gothardism and heard the pastor at the end of the sermon, urge the congregation to commit to witnessing once a month. I felt like I was back in the Basic Seminar, with the enormous peer pressure to make that emotional vow and stand with the congregation; but the memory of the painful guilt which followed those vows was stronger, and I remained sitting.

I could have written this. I am not an ATI kid (although I did go to the BG seminar twice in college), but this mirrors my experience of growing up in an over-the-top Christian setting. I am almost 62 years old, and I still can't get it that God loves me. Every day I'm waiting for God to strike me down for some obscure mistake I make or something I do wrong. I don't know how to change this.

Alison, I can relate to your struggle--I feel like I've only just started to experience God's love, even though I've been a Christian for several decades. I found "A Tale of 2 Pigs: Sydney & Norman" (written by Phil Vischer) to be an extremely powerful reminder of how much God loves me--I cried tears of joy the first time I heard it a little over a year ago, and it's quickly become my favorite children's story.

May God help us to believe His words of love and surround us with friendly reminders and friends who will show us in practical ways how unconditionally loved we are!

Since I first heard about the recent Gothard accusations, I've been reading through the posts and responses on this site, and can relate to a lot of what's been shared.

I grew up in a Christian-conservative-turned-Gothard family, and I turned into conservative Christian "zealot" myself -- with a strong passion for evangelism.

I'm a 40-year-old husband and father, and years ago, I met Bill Gothard on several occasions -- at a few of his seminars and once at the IBLP headquarters. I too believed he was the equivalent of a modern-day Paul.

Now I believe he was just a sincere man who fell victim to the kinds of temptations any man could fall to, if he made the MISTAKE of putting himself in the kinds of situations Bill put himself into (running the lives of teenagers and basically living with them, without much accountability). So personally, I feel sorry for him a lot more than I see him as some kind of monster -- while I also certainly feel for those he violated.

But having said all that, I personally ended up in a very different place...

Many of the people on this site have described feeling the bondage of legalism or Gothardism, which of course, is very real.

But after living life into my 30s as a dedicated Christian and then doing some investigation of my own over a couple of years -- after being challenged by a few atheists -- I can tell you that casting off the bondage of Gothardism isn't the half of it.

If you really want to free yourself of bondage, research Christianity "to the Nth degree" as I did over a few years. Study creationism and try to reconcile it with science any way you possibly can, that's intellectually honest, and see how far you get.

Check out sites like evilbible.com (as blasphemous as that sounds) and analyze the God you worship from the viewpoint of someone without bias.

Take off your blinders and see the world as it really is.

If you do that, you'll go through an excruciatingly painful "death-like" experience -- realizing that what you believed all your life is actually a LIE.

If you are 100% honest and objective in your investigation of Christianity, you will discover this to be true.

There is no other conclusion an objective person could possibly come to.

You can continue having faith in a lie, but if the God of the Bible was truly "GOD" would he expect you to?

@Mark: welcome to RG, I hope this is a life giving experience for you. One of my brothers was an ardent young earther...and an electrical engineer, very logical at times, so I know what you are talking about. Much of religious experience and sometimes doctrine is exactly as you say...but christianity is built upon the life, the death, the resurrection of Jesus the true messiah. Nothing I have seen or experienced in my 30 plus yrs as a christian shows otherwise. There is Jesus.... and then there is all that other crap....I've been able to sort out the two ... hope you can as well

@Mark- "from the viewpoint of someone without bias" is a myth. While you may be sincere in your admonition you've simply traded biases, and the essential question is whether your newfound ones are better. So, I in turn would encourage you to be 100% honest about your biases and affirm them openly rather than assume the privileged position of the clear thinking evaluator of naked facts.

My goal wasn't to hijack this thread and turn it into a discussion on the validity of Christianity. But after reading so may miserable testimonies, I decided to chime in.

To Shane and Greg, I just want to say that if you think that believing Christianity is a LIE has anything to do with "trading biases," consider the fact that if there was a "Book of Zeus" that hordes of people had somehow been duped into believing -- that contained a story of creation that could be easily and utterly disproved, and contained horrible stories of Zeus's own irrational, insane behavior (as the Old Testament does -- see evilbible.com), and contained stories of magical, miracle powers, of which none have ever been documented in history -- then would it be RATIONAL for me to say non-believers in Zeusology were biased against it?

No, that would NOT be rational.

Zeusology would simply be as bogus as Christianity is, and would eventually be rejected because it would be seen as utter nonsense.

Consider Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and all the other isms out there. Do Christians have biases against those religions?

Yes, they do, because their Bible tells them there is one God. His name is Jehovah, his son is Jesus, and all other gods and goddesses are lies of the devil that must be rejected.

You are an ATHEIST regarding every other deity -- real or imagined -- in the history of humankind.

Modern-day atheists simply add the most recent deities to the list of gods they know are false BECAUSE THEY DISPROVE THEMSELVES.

---

WHY I ABANDONED CHRISTIANITY

SCIENCE REFUTES THE BIBLE ENTIRELY

• Multiple fields of science have proven the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old. Multiple fields of science have proven the earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old.

• Genetics research has proven shared ancestry exists between primates and humans, making evolution practically irrefutable.

• Biblical genealogies leading to Creation and the so-called first man, Adam, date back less than 10,000 years. And despite arguments to the contrary, the details contained in the biblical genealogies make it impossible to ‘add tens of thousands of years’ in between the generations.

• Pre-human / hominid bones date back over 3 million years. Modern human bones date back 200,000 years.

• The first single-celled organisms on earth date back over 3.5 billion years. Multicellular life dates back a billion years. Simple animals date back 600 million years, and complex animals date back 550 million years.

• Geology has proven that no event even remotely like the biblical Flood ever occurred.

MUCH OF THE BIBLE IS BASED ON PRE-EXISTING MYTHOLOGIES

• A majority of scholars believe many Old Testament stories and supernatural Christ stories evolved from similar pre-existing mythologies, and there is ample evidence to substantiate these claims.

CHRIST ‘DIDN’T EXIST’ OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE

• There is virtually no ancient historical record of Christ’s existence, apart from Scripture, and no historical record whatsoever of any miracles. (Not that he didn’t exist, but he didn’t exactly stand out as the miracle-worker the Bible proclaims him to be.)

THE BIBLE IS FILLED WITH CONTRADICTIONS AND RIDICULOUS TEACHINGS

• Over 1,500 years, 66 books were written and compiled into what we call the Bible. The compiled book is filled with hundreds of inconsistencies and contradictions, many of them serious. Even the selection of included/excluded books was debated for centuries.

• Because of its contradictory content, Christians have been fighting over biblical doctrine for 2,000 years, with widely varying interpretations and teachings being derived from its content, even regarding crucial issues of doctrine.

• The Bible contains records of prophecies that have been proven false, including the words of Christ himself, claiming that his return would take place and his kingdom would be established during the lifetime of his audience. (Christians twist these and other verses to mean something other than what is stated, as they do whenever the clear and obvious meaning isn’t what they want it to be.)

THE MORALITY OF GOD IS ABHORRENT TO ANY OBJECTIVE PERSON

• The morality of God as recorded in Scripture is hardly a standard for all times and all places. In fact, it could easily be considered worse than that of history’s cruelest dictators. (See EvilBible.com for information on this and other references below.)

• The Bible contains records of God performing and ordering the mass extermination of men, women, children and infants.

• The Bible contains a record of God ordering his people to (personally) kill even their closest relatives and friends as punishment for attempting to lead them to follow other gods.

• The Bible contains records of God decreeing death as punishment for dozens of other supposed crimes, including cursing one’s parents, childhood/teenage rebellion, female pre-marital sex, adultery, blasphemy, working on the Sabbath, various dietary and temple laws, and a host of other offenses.

• The Bible contains records of God ordering soldiers to capture and keep women as sex slaves, as well as allowing men to sell their daughters as sex slaves.

• The Bible contains records of God acting as a puppet master, intentionally hardening the hearts of certain individuals – against his purposes – and then punishing them with a vengeance for what he admittedly caused them to do.

• The Bible teaches that God intends to punish all unbelievers in Hell and/or the Lake of Fire for eternity.

SUPERNATURAL EVENTS DO NOT HAPPEN

• The Bible contains records of hundreds of supernatural events – human, natural, and astronomical – none of which can be proven. There is no evidence of any supernatural events (suspension or violation of natural laws) in recorded, verifiable history.

For a more enlightening view of the Bible upon which Christianity is based, visit skepticsannotatedbible.com and www.evilbible.com.

--

I copied the above from my site AtheistInfo.com, which I haven't updated since 2010. The sites I setup while I was still a Christian, detailing my research into creationism are still online at CreationCrisis.com and OriginScience.com. I put ads on those sites a few years ago, but other than that, haven't updated them since 2007, when I was still a Christian.

------------

Lastly, when it comes to scientists having biases, those biases do them no good. Their peers eventually disprove their theories.

And it would be take a vast worldwide conspiracy of the devil to convince the 90+% of scientists who are atheists to see the world as having no "revealed creator."

You are atheist regarding every other so-called deity. People who call themselves atheists simply add Jehovah to the list.

No one on earth knows what caused the Big Bang, or what (if anything) existed before the Big Bang.

But it wasn't the God of the Bible. That God had a chance to tell his story, and his story doesn't even remotely line up with science or reality.

Therefore the God of the Bible is not God and cannot be God.

If any GOD caused the Big Bang or created this universe, that GOD has not been revealed.

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews (8) were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Flavius Josephus was a Hebrew scholar and historian from 37-100AD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .

Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8} Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Babylonian Talmud

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200. The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus. So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!

Historical Jesus outside Bible isn't a problem. There are also historical references of other Biblical persons like John the Baptist and James brother of Jesus.

@Mark- my point was not to argue you out of your atheism nor to defend the rationality of the historical Jesus, but to invite you to be honest about you biases as you invite Christians to do so. There is no "viewpoint of someone without bias". The idea of the neutral observer of the facts is an enlightenment myths. This is not some Christian jujitsu I'm trying to pull. Everyone has biases through we interpret facts. So the issue is how well those biases map onto reality. You're welcome to argue that yours do so better than the Christian's. I would obviously disagree. But I think it irrational to argue that one is without bias.

One example: your statement that supernatural events do not happen. You cannot possibly make this assertion without bias. You have not nor has anyone observed all events and have determined their causes were only natural forces. You have to load a lot of assumptions into to such a sweeping statement. I do think it's an honest statement of what a naturalist presupposes to be true about the world, but it is a presupposition through which facts are interpreted.

I would probably agree with much of your rejection of creationism; that is, the cottage industry of "creation scientists" who I believe force the Bible through a modernist enlightenment grid to answer questions it is not trying to answer. Age of the earth, for one. I don't think it irrational to believe in God as Creator. You obviously disagree. Reading your list of assertions, what I would challenge you to consider is there are Christians out there who are not fundamentalists, who hold to the Scriptures, and who engage science honestly. Maybe you could come to respect them even if disagreeing.

@Mark: on the off chance that your stay at RG is brief, at the risk of rabbit trailing... let me commend the work of Peter Enns over at Biologos for a better (imo) take on how christians can relate to science. If I remember rightly (at my age, very iffy) Enns is a scientist, but don't quote me .. also , the writings of Chaplain Mike over at Internetmonk, where the archives are full of good stuff on religion/science. This is NOT young earth, 'my science is better than your godless science' type stuff. If you've traveled in fundamentalist circles , you'll know of which I speak. Ken Ham, ahem.MOST of the christian world, btw, is very much 'well, if the science tells us the world is billions of yrs. old...it very probably is. ' Another way of saying this: the bible is actually mute on the age of the earth.... yes, this is blasphemy in some circles, but multiple millions, indeed the majority of the christian world , sees it this way (that doesn't prove it, I know). It is a VERY SMALL , but vocal, minority in the christian world that makes this a hill to die on. I could ramble more, but I'll call that it, for sat. morning. I'm painting, and on a 'paint break'.

God cannot be proven to exist any more than I can be proven to exist. You are left, in the end, to reliance on what you see, and hear, and touch. That is the beautiful thing . . . you see Him, touch Him, taste Him. You know because you see. When a person's heart turns from what he sees to embrace other things, he falls into darkness. He is left with the musings of his mind in a vacuum. Spiritual things are perceived by the spirit . . . and when the spirit goes dark, Oh, how great is that darkness.

To bring this back to Bill Gothard, Bill postulated that atheists are a product of moral decisions that they have made, turning from the light that shone on them and their conscience from before they were born. First they reject God's standards . . . then God disappears. How did that work for you, Mark?

@alfred, Bill doesn't have the first clue as to what causes someone to be an atheist.

@MarkYou may not know my short history on RG but I reasoned myself into your camp years ago for the most part. That being said I have found healing through RG and the "friends" I have made on this site. I know we don't all believe the same and I'm ok with that as we are all on our own journey. Even though my current beliefs may be different than many here I have a connection with each one who was involved in the destructive teachings of Gothard. There are probably 30 people who I have come to recognize their posts, smart people, whom I would sit down with and enjoy meaningful, thought provoking conversation.

I appreciate you putting the web sites out there and I will check them out as I constantly am willing to push myself. Much like Bill hit us over the head with the Bible I think many people will feel you hit them over the head with your belief. If you were in ATIA/IBLP you can join the healing here on this site and for a discussion on your posts above I would be intrigued and love to participate but another thread or site may be more appropriate (let me know). As humans we change our beliefs slowly and it takes years to move the needle.

I am perfectly fine with my parents beliefs and quite honestly I wouldn't want them to change. I respect them and the rainbow of beliefs represented here. If anything I want to heal first and cause myself as well as others to think and challenge mindsets that knowingly or unknowingly exist.

@Ryan and Alfred (if you care): Gothards style on just about anything does not work because 1)it does not involve listening more than talking and 2)he does not know what he thinks he knows about his audience I think these two points come up often, don't they.

Atheists are not some monolithic tribe. There expereinces and beliefs are varied... what a shock.. There is no one right way to approach anyone, unless you want to say 'love them as yourself' but then you have to figure out what love means TO THEM. As ususal, Bills' approach is formulaic, and rigid, again no suprise. Do not get your evangelistic plan from him , unless you like non sequiters, and ad hominum attitudes.

The comments on this thread are getting too far off-topic from the original article. Further off-topic comments will be deleted. Meaningful dialog happens best when comments are concise, respectful and on-topic. Thanks for understanding.

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