An Interview with Ma Ying-jeou

In an exclusive interview, Taiwan's new president Ma Ying-jeou talks to Dorinda Elliott about the island's transition from authoritarian rule to freedomand how it might serve as a model for mainland China

Ma Ying-jeou: Democracy has three major elements. As President Lincoln said, "of the people," "by the people," and "for the people." In Chinese history and culture, there are "of the people" and "for the people," but not "by the people."

But just because we didn't have something in Chinese history, that doesn't mean we can't have it today. In human society, we learn from each other. Taiwan's ceaseless promotion of democracy is an example for Chinese societies all around the world. If this experiment succeeds, it will give all Chinese people a very important precedent. It doesn't matter what Chinese society it is, it will have a huge impact. This is why when we voted, there were so many Chinese people watching. Hong Kong, Macau, Chinese mainland, Southeast Asia, they all watched the vote counting.

On the People's Daily website, three years ago, a reader wrote, "Why can Taiwan people go next door to the primary school to vote, and we can't? Are we second-class citizens?" You can see how they view us.

CNT: Is democracy a universal value?

Ma: Yes. If Taiwan people can accept it, then in other Chinese regions, this is just a question of time.

In Taiwan we are lucky. We've had several decades of peace, no war affecting our life, we've been able to develop economy and universalize education. Those are democracy's most important foundations. Without economic development, if a country is still too poor, it's not too possible to push it. If there is still not enough education, it's also impossible. In Taiwan, these two factors pushed the development of a middle class. And then the development of democracy just became a matter of course. It developed naturally.

CNT: Does that mean there can't be democracy in China until it develops its economy?

Ma: I think this is gradual. Taiwan's democracy wasn't born in one night. We have had several decades. We have had an authoritarian era. We had our white terror. We had press censorship. We've had all that. But the important thing is that we established a democratic constitution 60 years ago. Even though its articles were frozen during the martial law period, we had a hope. Many people even then said our constitution this or that, this is very important.

CNT: Recently you have extended olive branches to the mainland, allowing mainland tourists to come to Taiwan for the first time and sending the head of your Nationalist Party to Beijing. Why do you think this is good for Taiwan?

Ma: I want to deal with the question of the two sides of the straits from the perspective of history and world development. The two parties have been fighting since they were founded. There's been a heavy price for both sides. I believe we have reached a new era, a time when we can call a halt to these historical hatreds. Why? Young people aren't interested in this. There's no need to continue an animosity that they don't understand. From a global perspective, using peaceful methods to end confrontation, using negotiations to end conflict -- this is a world trend. This is why, when we called for reconciliation and negotiation, the other side gradually has shown us good will.

This is not good for one side but for both sides. But you need time for these ideas to ripen. Sometimes you have to persuade your own friends -- why should we do that? They are used to the old confrontations. So you have to persuade them. Both sides of the Strait have people like that.

We can't afford not to do this. Think about it. The mainland has been developing for thirty years, it's soon going to be the third biggest economy. When it first began developing, mainland China's GDP wasn't even 1/20th of Taiwan's. Now it's closer to 1/7th. It's growing very fast. If its economy grows and education grows, then they will gradually develop a middle class. They will want to participate in decisions about public works, not necessarily voting. It might come in the form of discussion, communication. This will gradually become civil society. This is the foundation for democracy. I don't doubt for a minute that this will emerge in mainland China. The recent earthquake in Sichuan is a good example. I've never seen such free press reporting in China before. Whether this is by design or an exception, we don't know. But we got a very deep impression. Regular people started giving blood, giving money, even though nobody asked them to. This shows that the society already has the ability to do what would never happen in an authoritarian society.

We have no reason to believe they will turn back. It would be very difficult. It would mean going back to poverty, or no freedom. Nobody wants that. It will take time to make a big-scale change. But thirty years ago, nobody predicted that they would have today's situation. Nobody. In 1978, during the 13th Party Congress, Four Modernizations, they said they would double the GDP. We thought it was bragging, rhetoric. But it's very impressive they did it. Recently their leaders have said publicly that the Internet and people on the Internet have given them a lot of pressure. That shows how much things have changed. They're not an electorate, but there is a certain accountability these days. The Internet has had a real influence. They have to listen. They can't control it. Over here in Taiwan, we're used to being cursed at. But they're not. This is something really new.

These democratic phenomena, they are like some small blades of grass pushing through cement. This is a very rare opportunity.

CNT: Do you want to play a role in promoting democracy in the mainland?

Ma: We don't need to encourage them. They are getting their own momentum. The best way to move forward is to increase exchanges between the two sides. We have economic exchanges, and in the future we should expand to include cultural and educational exchanges. We must recognize mainland China's academic achievements. We already have 4000 to 5000 students studying in the mainland, and several hundred are studying here. We'd like to increase that a bit. The most important purpose is for young people on both sides of the strait to make friends.

CNT: Is this part of a so-called peaceful evolution strategy?

Ma: It's not necessary to stress that idea. If young people on both sides make friends, the chances of a war would be much smaller. The other thing is that mainland Chinese students, wherever they are, are very hardworking. Nowadays Taiwan students have many opportunities to go overseas. They're not as hardworking as we were thirty years ago when we went to the US to study. And others just want to stay in Taiwan and make money. We're thinking that maybe the mainland students coming in can give our own students a bit of competitive pressure.

Ma: On whether or not Taiwan can play a role in the World Health OrganizationWang Yi has said the reports saying Beijing wouldn't allow it weren't accurate. That happened before I took office. My policies are different. We don't have to use "Taiwan" as a name. We can find a different name, be more flexible.

CNT: Like what name?

Ma: Whatever. A name that both sides can accept.

And we're not applying for membership to the World Health Organization. We're applying to be observers. We need to have access. Our medical profession is very sophisticated. But we could gain even more knowledge and assistance by having access to the WHO.

What's more, we could help other countries. We could be very constructive observers. Once we have that kind of recordmaybe we can't become members immediately, but this would certainly allow us to raise our international visibility. It would be a very positive thing. When SARS erupted, we weren't members but the WHO sent many people here. It was small-scale and informal. In the future we can have an even better cooperation.

In the World Trade Organization, we have used "Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matzu, Separate Customs Territory." This is WTO jargon. It's not on the basis of sovereignty or a state, but instead a customs territory. So Hong Kong, Macau, these are customs territories. We could use something like this. We applied to the WTO in 1990, and in 1992, we became observers. Eventually, they shortened our name and use "Chinese Taipei."

CNT: You have said in the past that you cannot discuss reunification with mainland China unless Beijing reverses the verdict on the massacre on June 4, 1989 -- which Beijing still considers a "counter-revolutionary rebellion." Do you still have the same position?

Ma: Our basic position is: no reunification, no independence, no war. What I mean is in my term I will not discuss reunification with the mainland. No independence means I will not support a de jure independence position. No war means we oppose use of weapons to resolve cross-straits issues.

We certainly don't have the necessary conditions to discuss any of these issues. Every year on the June 4 anniversary, I speak about it, and I did again this year. I'm concerned, not just about whether they reverse the verdict or not. Even more important is that people in the mainland can't have the freedom and democracy that they long for. Now if I change my point of view to analyze, when the earthquake happened, I saw some things I had never seen before, and it gave me a deep impression. I hope that mainland people can continue, on this foundation, to keep moving toward a democratic, free society. Maybe our methods on each side of the Strait are different, but basically we are all hoping to move in the same direction.

CNT: Taiwan has more than $100 billion in investment in mainland China. Are you afraid that your economy will be totally controlled by China, making you politically vulnerable?

Ma: No. In the 15 years I've been working on mainland affairs, I've never seen an instance where the mainland has used political strength to interfere with trade or investment.

We do have a lot of investment there. Some people say there is so much investment that the business leaders have created another Taiwan! Of course this is good for the mainland. It's money and technology, plus it helps resolve unemployment problems. Taiwan managers employ more than 10 million workers. From another point of view, trade is growing, and we have a surplus with the mainland. Last year's trade surplus with the mainland was US$70.5 billion. Our surplus with the whole world is only US$25. If we didn't have this trade with the mainland, we would have a global trade deficit.

You may think this is strange. The mainland has such a huge trade deficit with us, aren't they losing out? But no, they haven't lost out. Because they are actually making money off of the Americans. (Laughter.)

CNT: But that happened in Hong Kong. They decided we don't want democracyour business in the mainland is more important.

Ma: No, this can't happen in Taiwan. The most important reason is that Taiwan isn't Hong Kong. We have a democratic society. We choose our president, and manage our own affairs. We have our own sense of self-reliance. The mainland worries that this sense of self-reliance could become a call for independence. The truth is, every person in Taiwan has a strong sense of Taiwan identity, but that is not the same as being pro-independence.

Most people want to maintain the status quo in Taiwan. Most people still want to support Republic of China as the name of our country and think we shouldn't change our national flag. But nobody has changed this into the Nation of Taiwan. I think this is enough. The mainland can't expect us to adopt the 5-star flag [of China] or to change to the People's Republic of China. That's impossible, and they know it.

So it's in everyone's interest to maintain the status quo. This is best for the US, for Japan, and for Southeast Asia. That's why all these countries heaved a sigh of relief when we came into office. They feel relieved. The opportunity for conflict in the region has been greatly reduced.

I want to be a peacemaker, and for people to realize that Taiwan's existence is good for everyone.

CNT: Do you want to go to the mainland? Wouldn't it be helpful to go and better understand people's and the government's attitudes toward Taiwan?

Ma: Yes, I've been working on mainland affairs for 15 years and haven't gone -- of course that's a shame . . . Now I can't go. But the people surrounding me have all gone. I can't because of my title.

CNT: What about Falungong, the religious sect that is outlawed in mainland China? You have supported the rights of Falungong believers in the past. Do you still maintain this position?

Ma: I think the best way to deal with them is to let them freely develop. My feeling is that letting religion exist freely will get a better result.

We had a similar experience here: the New Testament Church. It looked a lot like the Mormons. They were preaching the Gospel from God. At first, we thought they were running a Communist guerrilla base. Forty years (ago). Then we discovered they were not. They looked like an Israeli kibbutz. They grew vegetables, etc, and taught children there. We thought, "Well, let them live their lives." But then, "No," we thought, "this is no good," we went in and there was a conflict. We broke it up. Then later Taiwan became democratic and we thought, "No, you don't need to do this. Just let them live their lives freely."

But religion is like thatleave it alone. If you don't believe in it, just let others believe. So what? It's a free society. There's no need to go repressing it. In Taiwan. Falungong isn't registered as a religious group. It's a sports group. They do exercises.

CNT: There seems to be a renewed sense of mission in Taiwan, an idea that Taiwan can be a model for China. Do you think so?

Ma: In many things we are not totally mature. Not perfect. But we have some experiences that are worth learning from. Eight years ago, the Nationalist Party, which had controlled Taiwan for 50 years, lost even though Democratic Progressive Party only got 39 percent of the vote. The Nationalist Party was split. People thought we were over. But look, eight years later, we have come back. If we were still an authoritarian country, it wouldn't be possible. If we used violence to overturn the government, we would still use violence to maintain control. But no, and now I'm back. And we've returned to power peacefully. That shows that democracy is zhong-xing de, and has a great use. Nobody can be in power forever. Everybody has an opportunity. I think this experience has value for many Chinese societies to analyze and learn from.

Democracy may not be the most ideal political model, but it's hard to find another political system that is better suited to human nature.

CNT: And Taiwan as a model?

Ma: I don't dare say that Taiwan can become a model for other regions, but at the very least our experience can provide material for other Chinese societies to consider. Taiwan is a beacon of democracy for the whole world. It's clear that democracy is a global trend. It's a matter of speedeither faster or slower but the trend is clear.

CNT: Twenty years later, what will China look like?

Ma: I don't dare predict. I didn't take the communist rhetoric seriously 30 years ago. But look at what they have accomplished!

Look at Russia and China. Russia has a longer history of communist control70 plus years. So today's Russians have no memory of what Russia was like before communism. China is different. Thirty years ago, when the Shanghai stock market began, there were some business people who before 1949 had been in the stock market. It's not such a long time. I also believe that Chinese people by nature are capitalists. They are very enterprising.

Many authoritarian decision making processes, they just can't continue that way. Mainland China must become more democratic and transparent. It's a question of time. No other communist country leaders take public opinion so seriously as the leaders in mainland China. This is progress.

CNT: So you are you an optimist?

Ma: Yes, I am very optimistic. I've seen the incredible progress.

CNT: You were President Chiang Ching-kuo's (the son of Chiang Kai-shek) translator and secretary. But it was a totalitarian government. Why did you want to work in that government, and what kind of man was Chiang?

Ma: Why? When I went overseas, I decided to come back because I loved Taiwan. But when I came back, I carried with me many American points of view and ideas. I discovered that Mr. Chiang Ching-kuo was already starting to rethink some of our policies, including martial law. His great American friend, who was a US Army Advisory Group chief, wrote to him and said, "Brother Ching-kuo, why do you still want to have martial law? Your trade is so large, but you have a bad name; what's the use?" I translated it for him. They were together as youths. His wife taught English to Chiang Ching-kuo.

So Chiang Ching-kuo said, "Ying-jeou, what does martial law mean, how is it defined in English?" I looked it up everywhere. I told him martial law means no law at all. It means military control. But he said, "We don't have military control and barbed wire." "But that's the definition," I said.

After a year or two, he decided to lift martial law. It was a revolutionary decision. I was part of that whole process. At the time, people asked how free should the press be. He said, "Of course, wider and wider. If it's like it was in the past, isn't that like switching soup but not switching the medicine?" I was quite impressed and moved. He really meant business.

CNT: Was Chiang Ching-kuo a democrat?

Ma: In the first half of his life, I couldn't say was a democrat, but in the second half, he started to be more democratic. He was educated in Soviet Union, studied communist ideology. He was very simple, wore very simple clothes. By the time he died, he had lifted martial law and then ended limits for the newspapers.

CNT: Was Chiang Kai-shek a dictator or a hero?

Ma: I'm afraid both descriptions apply. He liberated Taiwan [from Japanese occupation.] He was the key person to restore Taiwan back to the Republic of China. And he built and developed Taiwan. He introduced land reform, changed the whole agricultural economic system, raised the production of farmers and allowed landlords to become factory bosses. That led to Taiwan's economic development. He also introduced free education up to nine years. This was very important. He also stressed the idea that men should have only one wife. In traditional society, many men had concubines, but he strictly prohibited it. And he also wiped out the slave girl system.

He also was a dictator because Taiwan had martial law. You have to look at both sides of a leader, his successes, strengths, and his weaknesses. You have to be fair.

CNT: Why should one go to Taiwan?

Ma: Because of the friendliness and hospitality of the people. Maybe Taiwan's spots aren't so great as but national palace museum is unparalleledmainland can't compare with it. Plus, this society is totally free; you don't feel any pressures here. We've invested too little in tourism in the past. As president, I plan to really develop tourism. I want mainland Chinese tourists to be a starting point, to help develop our tourism as our flagship service industry. I think we can do this.

CNT: Will the mainland travelers take democracy and freedom back home with them?

Ma: They'll probably take back lots of things, including pineapple cake! Plus Taiwan people's friendliness and hospitality. The middle class in the mainland is growing fast. In terms of buying power, there are some 100 million, and we understand that as many as 50 million are interested in traveling to Taiwan. If can raise the quality of our tourism and avoid any conflict, I believe we can develop like Hong Kong as a great tourism destination.