magicbutterfly said: One of the more dramatic episodes for me happened four years ago when I was rejected by my lover. I was at home and doubled over in deep emotional pain when suddenly there was a split and there was I and there was the little me in pain. As I watched the little me and accepted the pain, the pain was no more.

Isn't it amazing the freedom and love that then has room to rush in?It made me think of the notion 'what doesn't kill us makes us stronger', for me, the strength is not in pushing against (reality), it's in letting it in.

I wonder if there is a limit to this enlightenment because we all have bodies and bodies need food, sex, safety, etc. Is that not why the ego arose? To compete for food, to improve our appearance in order to attract a mate, to warn us of danger? We do need our life situation if we are to remain on this earth. Or is there such a thing as a healthy ego that is not motivated by fear?

"As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease." Ekhart Tolle, The Power of Now

magicbutterfly said: One of the more dramatic episodes for me happened four years ago when I was rejected by my lover. I was at home and doubled over in deep emotional pain when suddenly there was a split and there was I and there was the little me in pain. As I watched the little me and accepted the pain, the pain was no more.

Isn't it amazing the freedom and love that then has room to rush in?It made me think of the notion 'what doesn't kill us makes us stronger', for me, the strength is not in pushing against (reality), it's in letting it in.

Ultimately that is what worries me, Jen - that one day it will kill me rather than make me stronger. During my nervous break down I went through something like ET did with incredible anxiety and rapid heart beat that I had to pull back because I though I would die of self induced heart attack. Or perhaps I would have had a break through like ET, but my fear won out and I didn't want to take the chance of dying. That's why I am still here learning it the slow way.

"As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease." Ekhart Tolle, The Power of Now

Or is there such a thing as a healthy ego that is not motivated by fear?

That's a great question butterfly.

You've already noticed the little you shaking in its boots that it won't survive etc etc and realised that is a 'part' of you, not all of you.You've likely noticed Fear = false emotions appearing real - rather than 'fright' which is immediate and real until it gets filtered one way or the other in real terms of survival.I would say a healthy ego is one that stays within its own boundaries, like our lungs doing their job and not trying to do the job of our left foot, or heart or brain. We seem to get into unnecessary angst when it becomes the driver, taking over not only our brains and life decisions, but even jumps out all over others.

Imagine animating the ego and pain body rising, but don't make an enemy out of the ego - Everybody's Got One - in a difficult situation imagine a radiating darker glowing, growing mass around the body, the mass getting bigger as their heart beat and voices raise. This is what happens when one makes an enemy of another, in physical proximity or even if it is one person 'getting themselves all worked up' either with an absent 'enemy' or making an enemy out of themself or the reality of what is.

In those situations the heart and blood flow reacts in a fight or flight situation and it's even hard to hear another (or even reason) because of the blood thumping in our ears.

Now imagine one stepping back slightly, taking a breath and with that the mass shrinking, blood pressure settling enough for them to hear the other, or their own reasoning. Now not being 'threatened' the other can also take a breath and settle somewhat. It also works the same within us if we first breathe out, allowing the 'mass' to deflate and then consciously 'take a breath' with reason.

what worries me, Jen - that one day it will kill me rather than make me stronger.

I understand that as a plaintif cry butterfly, but as you said you're still here.Sometimes that can be even more scary because as you said already - you now can't go back.

The moment I really realised this and decided not to fight it but instead to be loving and kind to me, I will never forget. No matter how hard the reality, the truth of our reality, it is what it is - and there is much peace to be found in accepting it

smiileyjen101 wrote:I did a search to see if anyone had furthered the notions towards the end of ANE about living consciously in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm and saw how many times I'd dropped it into topics I refound this topic in the process - conscious living - beyond noticing egoic thoughts of separation and suffering there is a beautiful life to be lived. It's in this moment and it is in the bliss as ET describes of being at peace with what is, or putting joy into what is or being the arrow flying towards the target and enjoying (putting joy into) the ride.

I watched someone who had 'suffered' ( or more like resisted reality) for a lot of years be in absolute oneness bliss today in a pursuit today; and it spread out, and up and around and touched the hearts of everything and everyone around them. It was like watching a symphony of notes floating into the sky, twinkling with gold dust as they almost literally were an arrow flying.

I can't get the grin of joy off my face nor am I in a hurry to have it fade in my heart.

I saw 'baggage' fall away, fears melt in an atmosphere of 'no need' of no 'gain' to leave only the translucent beauty of being.

I asked how it felt for them, they said - like a privilege.

Do others feel privileged when they are in these states?

To be - is a privilege.To observe someone being is a privilege.To share the privilege of being is a conscious and beautiful way to live a life.

Hi Jen,I am guessing this happened without you doing anything except being there as an example? You were concerned about this other person's suffering and wondering if you should stay or leave (unless I'm misunderstanding) in one of your earlier posts and magic - they came out on the other side of the pain. I would feel privileged just to watch this happening in another person. Thank you for posting.

"As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease." Ekhart Tolle, The Power of Now

"I would say a healthy ego is one that stays within its own boundaries, like our lungs doing their job and not trying to do the job of our left foot, or heart or brain. "

Thanks, Jen, I'm glad to hear that the purpose of enlightenment is not to kill or obliterate the ego but only to face and transmute our fear/pain body. I often ask myself when making a decision what is my fear and this clarifies the "better/shorter/easier" path (I know no path is really better).

"As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease." Ekhart Tolle, The Power of Now

I am guessing this happened without you doing anything except being there as an example?

Hmm, well that stopped me in my tracks butterfly - interesting observing there! You're right to a degree, and it blends with your next post about the ego and recognising boundaries.

When that blood is pumping in the ears and we can't hear reason it's really quite amazing the things we can believe, and then do in response to reinforce that belief.

'Cutting your nose off to spite your face' comes to mind.

In absence of clarity and reason, by attaching to the 'stories' and feeding the false emotions we can build a web of deception around ourselves, create roles and accessories to reinforce the story. Funnily (or maybe not) others who are of the same vibration congregate and cheer on the misadventure (yaknow the water cooler biatch sessions, or the 'poor you' brigade that feel better reinforcing another's misery and are invested in keeping them in it).

With the absence of fear and with clarity cutting through the 'story' the (real) reality is so obvious as to elicit the response akin to the child in the Emperor's New Clothes story 'The Emperor's got no clothes on!!' (the story is based on falsities)

- it's very hard to not 'notice' not only that the fears are false, but that the 'clothes' he's parading in are not real and those that are cheering the Emperor on... what's that all about if not collective fear?

I guess I did also, with the love and innocence and fearlessness of the child, ask the very obvious question pointing to the falsenesses that held the baggage that stopped this person from being all that they already are and being the bliss. I've learned along the way that stating the 'obvious' elicits more resistance than asking the relevant question. eg: the child might have asked the Emperor discreetly 'Why don't you have any clothes on?' and allowed the Emperor to maintain whatever dignity he had left in his own search for the truth. the child might also have admitted that they just may be unable to see the clothes that everyone else appeared to see.

The thing with this (- is this just being an example?) is that you can plant seeds without attachment to what anyone else might do with them. You take no credit and accept no blame and leave the response ability where it belongs.

If this is done in love, not fear then it can be absorbed in safety and as a receiver it's an awareness from which you cannot go back. The water cooler and poor you brigade will still try to remind you of the story to hook you back in, but the 'calmness' of the truth will usually not be thwarted - and then the 'hard' reality stuff usually kicks in.

As an aside living the bliss is not without risks and hardships and pain - real risks and hardships and pain - the person mentioned above through the very same pursuit is now in a state of acceptance of consequences that the water cooler/ poor you brigade are trotting out as a negative and this person is just accepting as a reality. Pain in life is all but guaranteed, suffering is optional.

When the negative cries were getting pretty loud I quietly asked 'Was it worth it?'

Their response - 'Sh*t yeah!' (as they lay recovering from a major operation from a serious injury).

When I asked 'Will you still do it?''Of course, as soon as I'm fit enough. If I think I still have the capacity'.

That would be my honest observation too, but it's not my call to make. I can only smile (absolutely with compassion and love) at the acceptance of the real reality.

Hi Jen,You have a way of hitting the nail on the head for me - thank you.

smiileyjen101 wrote:I've learned along the way that stating the 'obvious' elicits more resistance than asking the relevant question. eg: the child might have asked the Emperor discreetly 'Why don't you have any clothes on?' and allowed the Emperor to maintain whatever dignity he had left in his own search for the truth. the child might also have admitted that they just may be unable to see the clothes that everyone else appeared to see.

smiileyjen101 wrote:The thing with this (- is this just being an example?) is that you can plant seeds without attachment to what anyone else might do with them. You take no credit and accept no blame and leave the response ability where it belongs.

Unconditional love accepts and respects the other person where they are with regards to their ego. If an adult cried, "the emperor got no clothes on," they would likely be doing it from a need to bolster their ego (resentment of the emperor, anger, need for attention).

It's great to hear that we can sometimes facilitate other's growth by planting seeds.

"As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease." Ekhart Tolle, The Power of Now

It's great to hear that we can sometimes facilitate other's growth by planting seeds.

Hmm... again interesting - I didn't intend for it to sound like my questions are in order to facilitate another's growth, any step in that direction is none of my business.

I learned to reframe any 'this is so freaking obvious to me statement' into a question in recognition that while it might be obviously 'this' to me, it might be something totally different from the other side of the view. I guess it stopped me ass-u-me-ing anything and understandably folks (usually) respond with less fear or resistance in the sense of anyone making an enemy out of it.

I have an empathy level known in Scotland as the sight - much is 'so freaking obvious to me' and I have been known to stand in a crowd and state the bleeding obvious quite loudly but I've learned over the years its maybe really not so obvious to others and that's okay too.

I've learned to ask - for my own knowledge because I used to assume folks did know and I'm curious how they don't. We do tend to think our own 'normal' is everyone's 'normal' and that has created unintended consequences, on my part, in the past.

I'm curious about the decision-making influences in key decisions in courses of action that influence folks lives and how aware they are in making those decisions and if they are aware of the likely natural consequences in its unfolding, and how that's working for them.

The possible by-product - not of my response-ability but yes absolutely as a consequence of my asking a relevant question when they are in a state of calm and acceptance - in love not fear - is that yes sometimes in the asking it plants a seed but as I said above if it plants any seeds or not, or what anyone does with those seeds is not within my area of response ability.

When I said 'that you can plant seeds' I meant it as a natural consequence of the asking, not as a planned reason for the asking.

The thing with this (- is this just being an example?) is that you can plant seeds without attachment to what anyone else might do with them. You take no credit and accept no blame and leave the response ability where it belongs.

Which is why at the outset the thing that 'stopped me in my tracks' was

I am guessing this happened without you doing anything except being there as an example?

I was rechecking that I hadn't overstepped the boundary in this case (as in like my tagline) and that I was being honest with myself on this.

Maybe me being an example was a 'new information' that this person added to their decision making process, and maybe my asking the questions did plant a seed. But, I was asking the relevant questions to unmuddy my own understanding of choices that were made in (seemingly - to me) egoic responses that were as a natural consequence creating suffering.

What happened for the person after that was 'none of my business' (no credit, no blame), but it was an immense privilege to watch what they did with it unfolding. The event that I witnessed was an incredible joy in itself, not as a means to an end, but yes, it was also the result of more conscious decision-making on that person's part (nothing to do with me really).

I'm not so sure, Jen. I can accept that everyone has a personality, a style, but not everyone has an ego (false self created by unconscious identification with the mind.) Egos recede to the point of not influencing behavior. But it's absolutely true that "fighting" the ego is silly and impossible.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin HeideggerThere is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Interesting perspective Andy and the possibility that we have different notions or interpretations of what an ego is kind of defines the separateness and individualism that for me denotes that we all do.

I subscribe to the notion of ego meaning 'the self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves'.

By my interpretation of ego none of us would survive or grow in form without it. For me, an ego is the energy that powers survival in human or other 'form', an awareness of our individual needs,

I'll digress here for a moment to share my understanding of human/form needs - beyond Maslow and probably more akin to Tony Robbins' six basic and evolving & requiring balance in order to be fully healthy in mind body and spirit needs - Safety/security/comfort/certainty balanced with uncertainty/variety/stimulation/surpriseSignificance/uniqueness/special purpose & meaning as an individual balanced with Connection/love/alignment with the all & othersGrowth - mental, physical & spiritual balanced with Contribution, in service to the needs of self and others.

For me a healthy ego/sense of individuality/survival recognises the line between self and others across these needs and survives in harmony with others. For the most part it seems to me ET speaks of an unhealthy ego, either unaware or unwilling to work in harmony with self and others in balancing these needs.

I was trying to think of anyone I had seen, noticed or known who does not have an ego as I understand it - even selfless acts are a recognition on some level and an expression of those needs. Inspiring leadership stems from successful balancing of those needs in self and other, but they do not transmute the needs nor the expression of them.

It was cute to watch the Dalai Lama's ego as he bridged the illusionary divide between him and his adoring audience, but he absolutely made it clear that he was aware of the line between him and others, differences in experiences and opinions etc. I guess some could attribute that to personalty - which is the vehicle used for the expression of the need - but it is the ego (individuality recognition) that selects the need and the depth of power that is fed into the expression.

Absolutely egoically (individuality) understood and expressed on my part (with the hope that I am balancing my and your needs consciously in this interaction.

So I will again say Everybody's got one. I would be happy to discuss perceptions of it in those you may think do not have one, so far I haven't come up with anyone that I would consider qualifies.

I was using ET's definition, since this is a forum devoted to him (PON, p.22.) And yes, there are many definitions.

I guess some could attribute that to personalty - which is the vehicle used for the expression of the need - but it is the ego (individuality recognition) that selects the need and the depth of power that is fed into the expression.

If you are referring to style, yes, each has an individual style, and preferences, too. But a sense of being a separate self, with clear motivations based on concrete goals, holding firm beliefs about right and wrong, continually re-asserting "oneself" in opposition to others is absent.

On p. 247 of his fine book "Becoming Enlightened," the Dalai Lama says: "First the mind-body complex is misunderstood as existing inherently, and this leads to the misconception of 'I' as being inherently existent." ... He goes on to discuss the "emptiness of inherent existence," and "if the 'I' appears to be self-instituting, ... that this sense of 'I' is unfounded."

The gameboard and players exist in a self-contained space known fondly and falsely as "the real world." Egos are built from social norms, parents, genetics, life experiences and so forth. They may be all different, but have many similarities in their behavior. After awakening, Scott Kiloby's word for all of this is "hilarious." But that is Scott's style -- I think it's a bit cruel, because there is a great deal of suffering. But that's "my" style. 'Scott' and 'Andy' are handy little names for the body-mind-personalities bumping around on this planet. Psychologists take all this ego-based suffering very seriously and come up with wonderful techniques (like Gestalt Therapy and Transactional Analysis) to relieve some of it and help identify the sources of stress in egoic engines. Nondualists discover that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater...and that everything is just fine.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin HeideggerThere is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce