Honestly some of the posts here are just hilarious. Anyway is Drow tankier than Invoker? Sure. Similar health pool but Drow has retarded amounts of agi aka armor. Is Invoker harder to gank than Drow? Obviously. Main reason Drow is in vogue at the moment is because of the global push aura which is pretty retardedly good. People just hasn't been QQing about it because there is an ridiculously broken hero named Centaur.

Plus it's a weird place to build. You can have armlet, midas, and phase boots out at like 15-17 mins... and by then it feels like you need to get Doomy some more mana. Using Doom, LvlDeath and Scorched Earth constantly really sucks up his mana pretty fast.

I don't skill lvl?death at all. And if you pop SE and Armlet at the same time before you go invis you don't really lose HP. You lose some uptime with SE but hey, the whole plan is that you don't need more than a few seconds.

Honestly some of the posts here are just hilarious. Anyway is Drow tankier than Invoker? Sure. Similar health pool but Drow has retarded amounts of agi aka armor. Is Invoker harder to gank than Drow? Obviously. Main reason Drow is in vogue at the moment is because of the global push aura which is pretty retardedly good. People just hasn't been QQing about it because there is an ridiculously broken hero named Centaur.

Your post is hilarious...
pro tip: the burst that makes Trax a easy target is magical

Only thing I see out of you and Hermanni is whining about people complaining about something without ever actually providing anything concrete for rebuttal besides a "lol stfu noob."

The funny thing is that both sides make good points when they can stop with the fucking stupid personal attacks.

I'm not "whining" about "people complaining about something." The only person I have beef with is you, and it's only when you write absurdly stupid complaints about whatever you decided is broken about the game in a tone that implies superiority. You write walls of texts as arguments against the OP hero of the week, but those walls contain nothing but description of their abilities, strengths and basic strategy. You build utopian comparisons that are way far from the context of an actual game to actually matter and the basis of your rants appear to stem from a very recent mid-level pub games or short-term observation of the pro scene. You repeat yourself endlessly so everyone can be blessed with your opinions and get mad at people who disagree that AP is only for joke games or that PA is stupid. Not to mention you're not exactly above personal attacks yourself.

And above everything else, not only you forget to actually build some basis for your arguments but instead you exaggerate heavily and try to imply your arguments or "facts" are too obvious, too clearly perceptible to be even subject to any dispute and therefore they do not require proof or explanation.

And what's the point in seriously disputing you when you forget about it and come back next week claiming the exact same thing? When you're proven wrong, you brush it off and rush to make another complaint without stopping to think if you might be wrong again, that your point of view might yet again be too narrow? You now declare you agree with Lysah that heroes and items pro players don't use might actually be really good, but earlier you were utterly convinced that the heroes that are picked often in the pro circuit must be so because they are indisputably better than the other options.

Or you can look at the stuff Adriana quoted page or two ago. Can you actually read that yourself and think it's a good argument? That you're doing a fair evaluation and proving a point? To me when the amount of, let's just say, "easily disputable points" exceeds one per sentence I just don't think there's any point in spending more time in writing a serious reply, because it appears that either you really are too self-absorbed or flat-out stupid to see how ridiculous that text is or you're just piling BS on BS to try to keep your feeble argument look like it's alive and well. In either case, I don't think even the most intelligent response I could draft would help, especially since you'd probably forget about it anyway and post it again later or come up with more stuff like that until I have to either give up or go on 2 pages engaging in a very pointless discussion.

Just stop exaggerating, making irrelevant speculations and implying things that aren't and stop to think before you post and it might be possible to take you seriously. About half of my posts never see the light of day because I always re-read what I wrote and often decide what I was about to say isn't worth reading.

And above everything else, not only you forget to actually build some basis for your arguments but instead you exaggerate heavily and try to imply your arguments or "facts" are too obvious, too clearly perceptible to be even subject to any dispute and therefore they do not require proof or explanation.

Literally every single time I've said something is overpowered, I have explained exactly why it's overpowered. I don't know what you're reading but it apparently isn't what I'm writing.

And what's the point in seriously disputing you when you forget about it and come back next week claiming the exact same thing? When you're proven wrong, you brush it off and rush to make another complaint without stopping to think if you might be wrong again, that your point of view might yet again be too narrow? You now declare you agree with Lysah that heroes and items pro players don't use might actually be really good, but earlier you were utterly convinced that the heroes that are picked often in the pro circuit must be so because they are indisputably better than the other options.

You're making a lot of generalizations here. Some heroes are picked in pro circuits because they're fundamentally gamebreaking. Some heroes are picked because they're trending, and some heroes are always going to be picked because they're good in almost every situation.

In general there aren't many items or heroes I'd consider underpowered to the point of not being worth getting. In fact, I can't think of any, and I'd say that's good game design there. But I do think there are some heroes or items that are overpowered and need to be adjusted, and there are some mechanics in the game I'd really like to see changed. But that's just me. Everyone has their own opinion.

Just stop exaggerating, making irrelevant speculations and implying things that aren't and stop to think before you post and it might be possible to take you seriously. About half of my posts never see the light of day because I always re-read what I wrote and often decide what I was about to say isn't worth reading.

The vast majority of the time, I don't say anything. I don't make posts on impulse, I make them after watching several games and testing things for myself.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

Centaur is definitely being picked because he is game breaking at the moment. I don't know about the pro scene, but he and Drow are in every single game I play now. Just yesterday I played a game that was pudge/DS/cent/troll bat(MoM build)/axe, yes, four melee tanks and a batrider. Of course, it doesn't matter if they're all melee, because with stampede they can be anywhere at once. Such a troll lineup completely designed around one hero and one ability.

Personally, I'm starting to develop a huge social stigma for Centaur pickers. I have to wonder how many of them are picking him because they know he's stupid as hell right now. Anyone who knowingly picks a broken hero just so they can win deserves all the disdain the world has to offer.

Literally every single time I've said something is overpowered, I have explained exactly why it's overpowered. I don't know what you're reading but it apparently isn't what I'm writing.

No, you've always gone off and written a long list about the abilities, what they do and how you use them, always in a manner I described. No fair evaluation, no basis for arguments, no anything. You've still to properly explain why anything is overpowered, even once.

You're making a lot of generalizations here. Some heroes are picked in pro circuits because they're fundamentally gamebreaking. Some heroes are picked because they're trending, and some heroes are always going to be picked because they're good in almost every situation.

Ignoring "gamebreaking", you're only again telling me what I already know. That was not the point, the point I was making was that n pages ago you were trying to convince everyone that heroes that are being picked in tournament games are "OP" in contrast to other heroes that fill a similar role.

You can nitpick all you want, but if you keep ignoring what I said you will continue to not be taken seriously by me or pretty much any critical reader, I expect.

No, you've always gone off and written a long list about the abilities, what they do and how you use them, always in a manner I described. No fair evaluation, no basis for arguments, no anything. You've still to properly explain why anything is overpowered, even once.

So define "fair evaluation," and all the rest. I'm describing the skills in detail, including why I feel they're out of whack, which usually boils down to simple numbers. I'm really not sure what else needs to be said, especially since there aren't "official," sources to be cited, unlike things dealing with real life.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

So define "fair evaluation," and all the rest. I'm describing the skills in detail, including why I feel they're out of whack, which usually boils down to simple numbers. I'm really not sure what else needs to be said, especially since there aren't "official," sources to be cited, unlike things dealing with real life.

You don't need to describe the skills in detail, you can save 5 paragraphs with a playdota or dota2wiki link if you want to provide background information for your readers. How you feel about anything is irrelevant if you're actually claiming that something is broken, you will need to build an actual argument. If you're just parroting your own opinions then don't claim them to be something else.

I'll have easier time explaining to you what a fair evaluation isn't and what a bad or incomplete evaluation is, because you've provided plenty of examples. Claiming that PA is OP because with Stifling Dagger she can get farm under her tower is far from being a complete argument. Claiming that Lion can't effectively gank Drow because Drow has Silence is nothing but theorycrafting a situation that only sometimes (if not rarely) works as expected in the context of actual gameplay. Claiming that Puck is weak partially because Dream Coil is weaker than Ravage barely makes any sense when the reader remembers that barely anything beats Ravage.

Simply put, placing heroes in ideal situations, using a lot of adjectives and neglecting to review the weaknesses or relative power of discussed heroes (or even observe the situation from another point of view) doesn't make a very good argument. Refusing to accept dispute or building messy defensive arguments that defy common sense (Is Drow easier to gank than Invoker? Yes. Is Drow with a SB easier to gank than Invoker? Most skilled players will answer "Yes.") will only make you seem desperate or ignorant. I've disagreed with almost every claim of imbalance you've made yet I'm certain I could have made better arguments for them.

All of this, however, is only tangentially related to the thread so I'll leave you to maybe figure out the rest.

Personally, I'm starting to develop a huge social stigma for Centaur pickers. I have to wonder how many of them are picking him because they know he's stupid as hell right now. Anyone who knowingly picks a broken hero just so they can win deserves all the disdain the world has to offer.

Meh...I find the mast majority of games are boring for one reason or another. Either your team loses so bad you spend 20 minutes running circles around your final tier towers because they have control over both jungles and you have no outside towers left to defend or you win so hard the game is over in 20 minutes and the enemy team is running circles around their final tier towers while you kill an undefended base, basically playing the game by yourself.

The alternatives are close games, the ones you win in which you had to try way too damn hard and go 13-2-26 as Tiny and still barely manage to pull off a win which just leaves you pissed off that your teammates were so bad they almost cost you what should've been an easy game, or the ones you lose in which you're doing everything you can do, maybe you kill 4 of them in a team fight but 3 of them buy back and push down your rax while your team doesn't have the gold to buyback to defend so you lose the game because you won the team fight (I actually had a game where we had lost a lane but had wiped their team and had 2 people left pushing a different lane to even the score and maybe even throne it, until all 5 of them bought back, sold their items for BoT and teleport to our base and destroyed the tree - talk about rage).

Very rarely is a game legitimately fair without feeders/horribly outmatched players on one team or the other and therefore fun to win or lose. I don't enjoy stomps at all and will quit after two of them in a row just like I will quit after being stomped twice in a row. If I wanted 20-0 wins I would just go play bots.

The first time, sure. But when you're in the third game in a row where your team is up 20-4 with all outer towers down and it's not even 20 minutes in... it gets a little boring. There's no challenge, you know? Happens a lot when we stack up, I think because as bad as me and my buddy's MMR is, my buddy's buddies' MMR is even worse, so it pairs us with people at their level more often than not.

---------- Post added 2012-10-30 at 04:52 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Lysah

Very rarely is a game legitimately fair without feeders/horribly outmatched players on one team or the other and therefore fun to win or lose. I don't enjoy stomps at all and will quit after two of them in a row just like I will quit after being stomped twice in a row. If I wanted 20-0 wins I would just go play bots.

Those games are as rare as diamonds, but they're worth it. Had an almost 70 minute game we lost today... I think we lost mostly because our entire team played poorly, but it was a pretty close game for the most part, we did smoke ganks and everything. But most games tend to be fairly lopsided one way or the other. I'm sad to hear that's the case even at high MMR... I was hoping that as my MMR gets higher I'd have more even games than uneven games.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

Stomping isn't really fun to me when you're just clearly outmatching your opponents. However it's not always black and white that because you stomp a team it's only because you outskill them heavily - evenly matched games can turn into a stomps when you start snowballing and instead of pulling it together and attempting some kind of recovery you enemy lapse into a state where they spend their time raging at each other and neglect to play as a team. When queuing with friends I've sometimes ended up getting stomped by another group and then proceeded to stomp them just as hard in the next game.

I made an alt account to play with some friends who are almost or completely new to the genre to avoid pulling them too high up the matchmaking - let's just say I feel rather bad for doing it, but at least they learn better than they would if they got killed 15 times in first 10 minutes and constantly raged at by random teammates. But hey, "matchmaking doesn't work" so maybe the games would have been the same on my main account, right?

Your post is hilarious...
pro tip: the burst that makes Trax a easy target is magical

No one is arguing late game potential of those two heroes btw.

Please think before you post. Invoker and Drow has identical base strength and strength gain. Drow has more armor. So at worst nuked from 100 to 0 they are the same. Realistically you would have auto attack damage which is mitigated by armor. Now back to the hilarious part

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

l2micro...
there is huge potential in familiars you just need to know how to use them
global ganks
rune control
chasing

And they're terrible at all of that relative to any other hero that uses summons extensively. They aren't useless, but they're pretty awful compared to literally every other summon except maybe warlock's golem.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.