I wasn't aware good route running only applied to double moves and comeback routes. There is a ton that goes into even short routes, and the ability to create space to be open 5 yards off the ball with good footwork, good route selling, and understanding coverage technique to create space on the field cannot be undersold.

According to whom, you?

A lot of the times, teams give receivers the underneath receptions...especially in this era with all the concern over penalties.

You're making a generalization that is hardly accurate when it comes to Welker catching underneath passes.

Take for instance this game against the Dolphins when Matt Cassel was under center.

Right off the bat we have Welker running a drag route, Cassel doesn't attempt the throw and begins to scramble in the pocket. The late developing play has allowed the linebacker to ride Welker down off of his route.

Linebacker. LINEBACKER. What receiver can't beat a linebacker? Find me that receiver, and I'll show you a wide receiver who has become a stock broker and never played a down in the NFL.

And this is especially easy when the quarterback has all day and gives him time (something else that's never mentioned in how Welker benefits - Brady's pocket presence gives him all day to throw the ball on most plays).

If you're asking a linebacker to cover a receiver for 7 seconds, even one as painfully slow as Welker, you're kidding yourself.

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When the play breaks down Cassel begins to scramble towards the LOS. Welker has the presence of mind to slip upfield where the area had been vacated to get open.

That's Wide Receiver 101. That's like saying the offensive tackle had the "presence of mind" to pick up a blitzing linebacker when the defensive end bull rushed the guard. Receivers are supposed to keep moving to try to get open if they've finished their break and the quarterback is still holding the ball. Every receiver in football does this consistently. The receivers on the 9-year-old flag football team I helped coach a couple years ago did this. No joke.

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Not an amazing play by any stretch of the imagination

You got that right.

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, but a heady play that led to a positive result.

More like a routine play that led to a positive result.

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On the next play Welker runs a whip route which is one of the more difficult routes to run in the route tree.

No it isn't. In fact, that's one of the routes taller receivers can run well. Terrell Owens used to run that one quite a bit, and he wasn't a great route runner, as I've said before.

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When run right this is almost impossible to cover because the receiver virtually stops his route, and has all the space from the area he was previously to get open. He sells hard to the inside where the linebacker is in zone coverage.

Once again, a linebacker. Do you not see the problem with using this as an example of why I shouldn't be calling him unbelievably overrated?

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The linebacker has the right positioning considering the coverage type he's in, but the route itself is executed well and there is too much space for Welker who quickly gets up to speed and is able to take the play for a first down. Welker cleanly beats his man who never really had a shot at the play to begin with.

His man was a linebacker.

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At 0:21 Welker is aligned in the slot with a player in man coverage right over him. The Pats call for a little slip screen to Welker on this play. His initial sell is key to this play, he goes forward just enough to draw the CB into his backpedal, he then slips back towards the line of scrimmage. This forces the CB to immediately change his momentum to try and break up the screen, however by now it's too late and he's picked up by the blocker designed to block him. Welker essentially beat him right off the snap and won his matchup. He then works back to the ball. He turns upfield immediately to avoid the guys bearing down on him, and is aware of where his blocking is and follows it to pick up a first down. You completely sell off the ability to follow blocking assignments as well which is a crucial part of playing with the ball in your hands. If this was some trivial attribute Knowshon Moreno might be a functional player.

This is football 101. You're basically giving him credit for putting on his helmet and pads correctly. It's utterly ridiculous.

Knowshon Moreno is not a functional player?

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On the next play Welker runs a little jerk route against the corner playing man coverage on him. He sells his route hard to the inside which forces the corner to open his hips completely since he's expecting a drag route. Welker then breaks out and up which is impossible for the corner to do considering the positioning he has, and he falls to the ground. Welker now has space to run, he does enough of a juke to create space from Sean Smith, and follows a good block from Sam Aiken to pick up a big chunk of yards.

None of these plays are the sexy big plays where the receiver completely tricks the cornerback to give himself 10 yards of seperation down the field, but that doesn't mean that Welker's routes are any easier.

Yes, it does. It absolutely, positively does. My God...you're going to equate these little underneath patterns that every receiver in football has shown they can catch to patterns where a receiver gets major separation one-on-one down the field?

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He knows the space he has to work with,

That's like saying a poster knows the text box he has to work with. Just listen to this gibberish..."knows the space he has to work with?" Well, he should - he's the one on the football field and it's his space.

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he understands the coverage of the players he's facing,

As opposed to what? Not understanding the coverage of the players he's facing?

Receiver K: "I don't understand it. What kind of coverage is this corner playing on me, Goddamn it?"

These guys are coached several days a week and watch hours upon hours of film.

He's wildly effective in what he does which allows the Patriots offense to produce even on days when the rest of it isn't there.

What about on the days when he isn't there and they produce anyway? The Patriots lit up the #2 defense in football while Rogers was shutting him down.

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These routes are not unique to the Patriots or Welker, however it takes a lot of subtlety and ability to make these routes happen.

Except it doesn't. When you're talking about "subtlety" in football, you're basically playing the intangibles card again. Football isn't a subtle sport.

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Teams have thoroughly scouted Welker and are aware of the kinds of routes he's going to run, but with the proper execution it doesn't matter. Screens, drags, and out routes aren't magical routes that only BB and Tom Brady have figured out. The players just use the right technique and timing which makes them very difficult to cover.

You're crediting the "players" (Welker), I'm crediting the play caller. You say Welker is special. I say Belichick is special. That's the core disagreement here.

People here are slighting Belichick by insisting that, in this copycat league, if Welker weren't super-amazing-awesome, every team would have a Wes Welker. Why? Because it's a copycat league, and teams would just be copycatting Belichick...because it's just so easy to do.

Belichick? Mehhh. Welker? WOW, all-time great.

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While I like a guy like Julian Edelman I've seen enough of him as a receiver to know that he doesn't have this kind of awareness in the passing game. His connection with Brady has never been there, and the 2 have struggled to get on the same page since the Houston games despite ample opportunities out of the slot. One game isn't a representative sample, or else why not just assume that Hakeem Nicks is replaceable with Ramses Barden?

3 games, not 1 game. NY Jets, Houston, Baltimore.

Plus, though it was a throwaway finale, their offense was just fine in 2010 without Welker vs. the Dolphins (38-7 win, Edelman 3 catches, 72 yards, Taylor Price, 3 catches 41 yards).

You want to know why they "can't get on the same page?" Because they're not trying to. Right now, they're going with Welker, and Edelman is the backup. That's not "ample opportunities in the slot." Welker has been playing the slot. Edelman saw the field as a receiver only occasionally before his injury.

And here's the problem with your overall attempt to praise Welker for all these little receptions - you could do this with every single pass ever caught in the NFL. Essentially, you're saying that if a pass is caught, it means the receiver must have done something well, even something subtle, and therefore one must praise the receiver for making that play that seems routine.

Not every reception deserves to be praised. Not every 3 yard rush deserves to be praised. Not every complete pass deserved to be praised. All these things are going to happen. It's a matter of how many impressive things a player can do that determines the quality of the player.

The plays Welker makes, everyone makes. The difference is, Welker makes them more often. But when you watch the Patriots play, you see exactly why he makes them more often...and it's not because other players lack the stamina/consistency to run a slip screen, or beat linebackers on drag routes, or find holes in the zone, or keep working to find space when their all-time legend at quarterback buys another 3 seconds by stepping up in the pocket.

There is no need for a refute to that distance from the LOS stat. I've shown in video clips that you didn't bother to address that the distance from the LOS is irrelevant when Welker uses good route running to get open in those short short areas. I've also provided clips of him doing damage down the field with good route running. He catches an above average amount of slip screens, and on a 3rd and 2 type play they'll run a play that gets enough for the first down that will hurt that number. Randomly throwing out a stat shows nothing about a guy's skill level.

I didn't respond to them because you're posting clear aberrations and trying to make the exception the rule. Even you won't try to argue against the fact that Welker is one of the least likely starting receivers in football to make a big play. Yet all the plays you posted in that video analysis were 20+ yard plays, including a 59 yarder against the Ravens. Then you said he's done "all those things dozens of times," which is flat-out false and easy to disprove, given the fact that he only has 13 career 40+ yard receptions in 9 years. That's one dozen plus one, not dozens.

Patrick Crayton, just for comparison's sake, has 12 in 8 years. Would it be wrong of me to say Crayton lacks big play ability?

Welker didn't get that kind of an average by accident. Over the course of all the balls he's caught in his career, the average distance from the line of scrimmage in which he caught them is 5.4 yards. That's one of the lowest figures in NFL history for a wide receiver. You don't get an average like that without running a ton of screens and not catching a lot of balls on routes that require much running.

People on here are raving about his "route running," but the most difficult patterns to run are those where a receiver has to make his break at full speed. Running routes that tend to be within 10 yards isn't high enough on the difficulty scale to justify such tongue-bathing.

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I've demonstrated actual skill that Welker has displayed on the field. All you've done is spew nonsense from looking at a stat sheet and making up the kinds of routes the Patriots offense consists of.

Yeah, I just made them up. That's what happened.

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Julian Edelman has failed to develop as a WR. My fellow Patriots fans and I have seen this. He is a good talent, and I think he can still be a good slot receiver in the NFL.

How has he failed? Because he hasn't caught 120+ passes per season out of the slot when he's backing up Welker?

The guy was a 7th round pick. He's not a good talent...he's a journeyman caliber player who can step in and about equal Welker's production.

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However he doesn't have as good of a grasp on choice routes and doesn't catch the ball as well as Welker.

He catches the ball better than Welker...and that's not saying a whole lot.

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I've actually seen the Houston, Baltimore, and Jets game that you so often refer to, and I've also seen every other game he's played in. Every single knowledgeable Patriots poster agrees with me, but somehow your level of football acumen is so high that you see something that we don't, despite the high likelihood that you didn't even see any of those games.

It's called, "homerism." You're biased in favor of your team and its players. It's understandable, but you just can't see it.

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I guess if we follow your logic and dismiss all the attributes that Welker possesses as being irrelevant to being a good receiver, then yes Welker isn't a good receiver. However, the rest of us live in reality.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue at this point? A "good receiver?" What does that even mean? A good high school receiver? College? CFL? Semi-pro? Flag football?

A good #3? A good #2? A good #1? Good in general? Is, say, Antonio Brown a good receiver? How about Jeremy Maclin? How about Patrick Crayton? How about Johnny Knox? How about Sidney Rice? How about Titus Young? How about Donald Jones?

Isn't every receiver in the NFL a good receiver? If that's the case, then that's not even what I'm arguing. It's all relative.

You know, that would be awfully hard seeing as I respond directly to quotes, as opposed to just putting words in people's mouths. That's more your style.

Ironically, there have been nonstop straw man arguments in this thread aimed at me ("you said Welker SUCKS," "you said Welker is completely useless," etc.). But of course, you accuse me of being the one who "makes up what I think people are saying in retaliation to me." Priceless.

That list of players includes guys who range from above average starters, to pro bowlers, to all pros, to future hall of famers, to hall of famers. But hey, they were drafted late so obviously they had little talent.

Oh and by the way, two of the guys on that list were also drafted from the same school as Edelman.

So...you have a 5'10 former option QB who is changing position to WR and played at a small school. Did you ******* expect him to be drafted in the first round? Edelman does not have journeyman talent. He likely doesn't have pro bowl talent but he is more than just an afterthought but yet...still not equalling or surpassing Welker's production.

Bill Belichick must just be trolling the league by saying "we can take the smallest, slowest white guy who can't run anything but drags and screens and turn him into a WR who has broken all time NFL records. Why do I do it you ask? Because I'm Bill ******* Belichick and I do what I want".

I mean I think it goes without saying he benefits from the team and system he in, but he's a smart receiver with great hands who runs excellent routes with a high level of agility and quickness. He found a niche in the NFL and he's one of the best slot receivers. I think there are some fans and writers that have him rated too highly, and I certainly would take a lot of other receivers over him, but he has a valuable skill set that makes him at least a good player.

There are sometimes surprise exceptions that slip through the cracks, but the vast majority of 7th round picks are throwaway guys.

The reason quality players fall that far is often related to special circumstances. Shannon Sharpe, for instance, was a big, slow, small school wide receiver who was converted to an undersized tight end who never was able to block very well.

Priest Holmes backed up Ricky Williams at Texas.

Antonio Gates didn't play college football - he was a basketball player.

Adam Vinatieri...was a kicker.

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Oh and by the way, two of the guys on that list were also drafted from the same school as Edelman.

There have been guys from Kent State drafted earlier...as recently as Jack Williams in the 4th round in 2008 and Usama Young in the 3rd round in 2007.

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So...you have a 5'10 former option QB who is changing position to WR and played at a small school. Did you ******* expect him to be drafted in the first round? Edelman does not have journeyman talent. He likely doesn't have pro bowl talent but he is more than just an afterthought but yet...still not equalling or surpassing Welker's production.

Armanti Edwards.

If Edelman had real speed and athleticism for an NFL receiver, he would've gone higher.

And with those players you listed, they already did it. Edelman has yet to do it, aside from the 3 games in which he filled in for Welker. You're working backwards, insisting he is clearly a talent just in case he does exactly what I'm saying he could in replacing Welker.

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Bill Belichick must just be trolling the league by saying "we can take the smallest, slowest white guy who can't run anything but drags and screens and turn him into a WR who has broken all time NFL records. Why do I do it you ask? Because I'm Bill ******* Belichick and I do what I want".

So you haven't noticed how many late round/UDFA white guys are on the Patriots' offense at the skill positions? You don't find that strange?

Belichick clearly has a "type" for his offense. If Mike Martz can get away with naming J.T. O'Sullivan the 49ers' starting QB in 2008, Belichick can get away with manufacturing production with 7th round picks/UDFA at the offensive skill positions...who just "happen to be white."

He moves the chains, he makes plays. Just because you like to FAP to Calvin Johnson doesn't mean Wes Welker sucks. You just have some sort of weird thing against Welker.

What are you not getting? Do you think any WR could catch 100+ balls a season in that offense? Do you have any appreciation for the hand eye coordination/concentration and discipline Welker has? Just go away.

Do I think any WR could catch 100 balls in that offense? Yes. Belichick could line up Danny Woodhead in the slot and he'd get the same receiving production. Woodhead is actually a better athlete than Welker.

Hand/eye coordination? Have you actually analyzed a welker catch before? He's actually somewhat unnatural catching the football. He bobbles a good portion of his catches and he was near the league lead for drops this year if I recall correctly. His hands aren't like a Michael Crabtree, who has some serious oven mitts.

At one point, I think it was true. I think the skill positions were clearly mediocre. Probably in the 01-03 seasons. They had won a superbowl, in a time when you needed to be able to run the ball effectively, especially in the playoffs, with the worst ground attack ever, If I remeber correctly. That was the 03 season. They got Corey Dillan the following year, and seemed to have started putting better offensive talent around Brady since than. Although in 05-06 his receiving core was laughable. Litterally some castoffs from worst teams in the league. Like Jabbar Gaffney.

Since 07, he has had some of the best talent in the league around him. I think production is somewhat inflated playing with a guy like Brady, but to say his skill players suck, is crazy. I am not a fan of the running game. But I love their TE's, the WR are good. I like Welker, although, I think he would see a overall production drop if he went to some place outside of NE. I think he would be virtually the same guy with Green Bay though. He would still be productive elsewhere just would need teams to cater to his skillset a bit. But thats why he is so fantastic in NE. Because that system is setup, to cater to what he does best. He is a top top 10 wr in football imo.

New england, especially since the 07 season has had top tier talent on the offensive side of the ball, no question. I like Brady a lot, and think he is the best QB in football since he got on the map. But the Brady plays with no good talent, or infurior offensive talent hasn't been relevent in 6-7 years.

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bill belichick quote:
stats are for losers. the final score is for winners.

At one point, I think it was true. I think the skill positions were clearly mediocre. Probably in the 01-03. They had won a superbowl, in a time when you needed to be able to run the ball effectively, especially in the playoffs, with the worst ground attack ever. If I remeber correctly. That was the 03 season. They got Corey Dillan the following year, and seemed to have started putting better offensive talent around Brady since than. Although in 05-06 his receiving core was laughable. Litterally some castoffs from worst teams in the league. Like Jabbar Gaffney.

Since 07, he has had some of the best talent in the league around him. I think production is somewhat inflated playinv with a guy like Brady, but to say his skill players suck is crazy. I am not a fan of the running game. But I love their TE's, the WR are good. I like Welker, although, I think he would see a overall production drop if he went to some place outside of NE. I think he would be virtually the same guy with Green Bay though. He would still be productive elsewhere just would need teams to cater to hid skillset a bit. But thats why he is so fantastic in NE. Because that system is setup, to cater to what he does best. He is a top top 10 wr in football imo.

New england, especially since the 07 season has had top tier talent on the offensive side of the ball, no question. I like Brady a lot, and think he is the best QB in football since he got on the map. But the Brady plays with no good talent, or infurior offensive talent hasn't been relegent in 6-7 years.

Gronkowski and Moss are the only "true" all pro talents Brady has thrown to in his career.

Troy Brown is like the most clutch player we have ever had, and saying otherwise is really all the proof needed that you have no idea what youre talking about. The dude played WR, DB, and on STs for us and played all three at an exceptional level. Saying he is nothing special makes me want to punt kittens, the guy did SOOOO much for us and made huge plays when it mattered.

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Originally Posted by WMD

Jesse realizing Walt was Santa Claus could really shake things up.

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Originally Posted by gpngc

I don't know how old you are, but if you can get to 24/25 without getting arrested or killed, you've done well for yourself lol.

Troy Brown is like the most clutch player we have ever had, and saying otherwise is really all the proof needed that you have no idea what youre talking about. The dude played WR, DB, and on STs for us and played all three at an exceptional level. Saying he is nothing special makes me want to punt kittens, the guy did SOOOO much for us and made huge plays when it mattered.

Keep up Jvig,

Was Troy Brown 6'6? Could he run a 4.3 40? Could he break 7 tackles on a single play? Could he burn Champ Bailey over the top at will? The answer is no. So what if he could return kicks, create turnovers, be the only worthwhile receiving threat on a SB winning offense, and make plays in multiple big moments over the course of his career. Those are all "intangibles" made up by the mediots out there who are looking to reward bad players for system accomplishments. This is all obvious because Julian Edelman once had a good game in week 16 against a bad Texans team.

Was Troy Brown 6'6? Could he run a 4.3 40? Could he break 7 tackles on a single play? Could he burn Champ Bailey over the top at will? The answer is no. So what if he could return kicks, create turnovers, be the only worthwhile receiving threat on a SB winning offense, and make plays in multiple big moments over the course of his career. Those are all "intangibles" made up by the mediots out there who are looking to reward bad players for system accomplishments. This is all obvious because Julian Edelman once had a good game in week 16 against a bad Texans team.

Sure everyone can do that...I mean he was traded for a crappy RB so he must be crappy too

Was Troy Brown 6'6? Could he run a 4.3 40? Could he break 7 tackles on a single play? Could he burn Champ Bailey over the top at will? The answer is no. So what if he could return kicks, create turnovers, be the only worthwhile receiving threat on a SB winning offense, and make plays in multiple big moments over the course of his career. Those are all "intangibles" made up by the mediots out there who are looking to reward bad players for system accomplishments. This is all obvious because Julian Edelman once had a good game in week 16 against a bad Texans team.

I am DYING right now. I love you guys.

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Sig by BoneKrusher

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Originally Posted by killxswitch

Bill Polian is cancer wrapped in AIDS delivered in an XXL enema so please don't expect me to disagree with you.

Troy Brown is like the most clutch player we have ever had, and saying otherwise is really all the proof needed that you have no idea what youre talking about. The dude played WR, DB, and on STs for us and played all three at an exceptional level. Saying he is nothing special makes me want to punt kittens, the guy did SOOOO much for us and made huge plays when it mattered.

Yeah, none of that had ANYTHING to do with Belichick's coaching prowess. What did good ole' Troy do before Bill got there? Let's take a look.

Troy Brown is like the most clutch player we have ever had, and saying otherwise is really all the proof needed that you have no idea what youre talking about. The dude played WR, DB, and on STs for us and played all three at an exceptional level. Saying he is nothing special makes me want to punt kittens, the guy did SOOOO much for us and made huge plays when it mattered.

Yeesh.

Yeah, just like Edelman. What a coincidence that it's the exact same team with the exact same coach that puts a receiver in at corner. The same team/coach that loved putting Vrabel at tight end in goal line packages.

This has nothing at all to do with their head coach's ego, showing off that he can do whatever he wants with anybody. Belichick most certainly did not mutter "suck my dick" after running up the score on Rex Ryan's Jets.

It's just that the Patriots are always loaded with these versatile 7th/8th round pick studs who can do all these things at a high level...things that nobody else can do.

After all, we know that coaches never do things like this for personal reasons...