tiltbillings wrote:Yes. Well, there are mountains of data that illustrate that the production of food in general involves the mass destruction of living beings.

From a purely utilitarian standpoint, it is hard to argue that a strict vegetarian diet is even close to as destructive as one based on meat; moreover, from a philosophical standpoint, it's far more reasonable to advocate a system that unintentionally results in collateral damage over one that is designed specifically to kill.

Naw. Once you know that what you eat entails death and a lot of it, you know. Trying to say that this death is of lesser importance than that death is self-serving.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

tiltbillings wrote:Naw. Once you know that what you eat entails death and a lot of it, you know. Trying to say that this death is of lesser importance than that death is self-serving.

You honestly don't see a difference between harvesting non-living things, incapable of suffering, in ways that result in the death of lesser beings, and killing living beings directly to eat their dead bodies? There isn't even the slightest bit of difference between those two?

It hardly matters anyway, considering that the meat industry is not an alternative but an addition to industrial agriculture; after all, what do you think we feed to cows to make them nice and fat?

Gain and loss, status and disgrace, censure and praise, pleasure and pain:these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.

tiltbillings wrote:Naw. Once you know that what you eat entails death and a lot of it, you know. Trying to say that this death is of lesser importance than that death is self-serving.

You honestly don't see a difference between harvesting non-living things, incapable of suffering, in ways that result in the death of lesser beings, and killing living beings directly to eat their dead bodies? There isn't even the slightest bit of difference between those two?

I am not talking about harvesting non-living things. The act of planting and maintaining and harvesting grains, for example, is highly destructive of "lesser beings" and has a detrimental, deadly, impact, on the environment. And you are going to distinguish between "lesser beings," such as insects, rodents, birds, and other such mammals and such that are directly impacted by farming and "higher beings" such as cattle and sheep? Life is predicated upon death.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Thanks Cittasanto, I knew what was being refered to but I do not see it's relevance to my comment. Is it meant as a rebuttal?

I can not speak for RobertK.But in my opinion section 13 does show we are not responsible for future actions, after the fact, for our intent to buy food. It is our intention that matters not another's possible actions.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Thanks Cittasanto, I knew what was being refered to but I do not see it's relevance to my comment. Is it meant as a rebuttal?

I can not speak for RobertK.But in my opinion section 13 does show we are not responsible for future actions, after the fact, for our intent to buy food. It is our intention that matters not another's possible actions.

So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

Mr Man wrote:Thanks Cittasanto, I knew what was being refered to but I do not see it's relevance to my comment. Is it meant as a rebuttal?

I can not speak for RobertK.But in my opinion section 13 does show we are not responsible for future actions, after the fact, for our intent to buy food. It is our intention that matters not another's possible actions.

So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

on a business plan level, but can you not see the difference in ones own and another's actions?but what I can or can not see has no relation on what the Buddha taught on the matter of responsibility for ones own actions.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

on a business plan level, but can you not see the difference in ones own and another's actions?but what I can or can not see has no relation on what the Buddha taught on the matter of responsibility for ones own actions.

Cittasanto, you don't seem to have answed my question.

To answer your question; of couse I can see the difference between my own actions and those of another but I also know there is relationship.

So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

on a business plan level, but can you not see the difference in ones own and another's actions?but what I can or can not see has no relation on what the Buddha taught on the matter of responsibility for ones own actions.

Cittasanto, you don't seem to have answed my question.

To answer your question; of couse I can see the difference between my own actions and those of another but I also know there is relationship.

from previous expressions of others this "relationship" is placed to close together by equating buying food with oneself directly killing when this is not happening.but to clarify my short response earlier (sorry for delay I had to run out)There is a connection on a Business plan level, i.e. the level in which we have no say or control. there are several factors that are accounted for here, from sales period to year on year analysis and projections based on current sales trends in previous weeks and months and current stock levels. this is wrong livelihood and it is here that the connection is.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Imagine that there is some theif, who come into your home and steal somethink that have a very big importance to you, some unic object, that only you have it, the vase that you made with your dead parents when you was little, the vase on wich we can see their prints... This wase were stolen by this theif, and he sell it to some one.It was a tragedy for you, horrible moment.And once, you go for a dinner for your new friend, who love rare and unic objects. So taking a meal with him at his home, he tell you that his beatifull and very expensive collection comes frome some one who can get it, but he dont care, because he pay fot it, he pay many money because he knows that this man make all very clear, and so he has never any problem with object from him.Your friend was very rich and very powerfull, he was proud of him self, and to show you his wealth, he said:- Watch at me, how i'am powerfull and ritch, now i will take my favorite vase, the last one what i bought for 5 billion dollars, and i will broke it ! blow it off ! So he take your vase and blow it off

Verse 129: All are afraid of the stick, all fear death. Putting oneself in another's place, one should not beat or kill others.Verse 130: All are afraid of the stick, all hold their lives dear. Putting oneself in another's place, one should not beat or kill others.

Verse 131: He who seeks his own happiness by oppressing others, who also desire to have happiness, will not find happiness in his next existence.Verse 132: He who seeks his own happiness by not oppressing others, who also desire to have happiness, will find happiness in his next existence.

Meat-eaters "easily cheat, lie, forget promises and commit sex crimes", according to a controversial school textbook available in India.

...

"The strongest argument that meat is not essential food is the fact that the Creator of this Universe did not include meat in the original diet for Adam and Eve. He gave them fruits, nuts and vegetables," reads a chapter entitled Do We Need Flesh Food?

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

One wonders why a textbook for Indian Schools is quoting as proof a jewish/christian story about Adam and Eve. I didn't think that couple were part of the Hindu culture?

with mettaChris

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

One wonders why a textbook for Indian Schools is quoting as proof a jewish/christian story about Adam and Eve. I didn't think that couple were part of the Hindu culture?

with mettaChris

Its not surprising.The propensity to warp scientific and historical facts to one's political, religious or other deeply-held view is something that is not unique to the militant-lunatics from the vegie-fringe on the sub-continent.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725