I will ONLY do ear tattoos, will not do body tats. I also will not microchip my dogs.

Why no body tattoo? It is my knowledge that they are actually alot less painful than the ears. Also, someone can cut your dogs ear off if they steal them, but they can't necessarily cut their entire leg off.

SisMorphine wrote: worried that someone will compete with a different dog and play it off as the one listed? That's a tad paranoid

That's the reason why in basically EVERY bite sport dogs either have to be tattooed or microchipped. Because people can't play nicey nicey.

I will ONLY do ear tattoos, will not do body tats. I also will not microchip my dogs.

Why no body tattoo? It is my knowledge that they are actually alot less painful than the ears. Also, someone can cut your dogs ear off if they steal them, but they can't necessarily cut their entire leg off.

SisMorphine wrote: worried that someone will compete with a different dog and play it off as the one listed? That's a tad paranoid

That's the reason why in basically EVERY bite sport dogs either have to be tattooed or microchipped. Because people can't play nicey nicey.

And Katrina, no, they can't be microchipped in FR.

Yeah, Dawn answered that for me...I knew there had been talk about it, which is why I wasn't sure.

I will ONLY do ear tattoos, will not do body tats. I also will not microchip my dogs.

Why no body tattoo? It is my knowledge that they are actually alot less painful than the ears. Also, someone can cut your dogs ear off if they steal them, but they can't necessarily cut their entire leg off.

I'm not particularly worried about my dog getting stolen, for me it's just for identification purposes since I won't microchip. I HATE the look of leg tattoos, I think they're tacky (yup I'm just as picky about my dog tattoos as I am about my human ones). I like Wally's ear tats. But that's also why I really would rather wait until my dog has to be put under for something else to have her tattooed.

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France

I remember we tried to get them before, yet someone in dog sports told us you can't get them anymore in the US...so I was going off of what I was told. I stand corrected

I don't know if we're going to make it up there anytime soon; we're gonna have puppies now through the end of the year...

And, Christine, I'm not entirely sure if this is what Dawn was referring to or not, but I know that when I say my dog was dirty, I am referring to the fact that she does bitework, and rather than giving a clean routine, she gets dirty and takes it upon herself to bite. For example, when Nisha guards, she seems to think she's waited long enough to get the reward bite, so she takes it upon herself to take it herself...

Christine, no I'm not talking about mud Katrina hit the nail on the head. We had an extremely difficult time teaching him to out. He loves biting and it was so hard to get him to understand that if he'd just let go when he was told to, there would be another opportunity to do it again. Sometimes he's very slow to out which costs us big points in a trial and other times he punches and takes cheap shots when he's guarding. This also costs you points and if your dog is bad enough they can add up to enough that you will not get a passing score.

pocketpit wrote:Christine, no I'm not talking about mud Katrina hit the nail on the head. We had an extremely difficult time teaching him to out. He loves biting and it was so hard to get him to understand that if he'd just let go when he was told to, there would be another opportunity to do it again. Sometimes he's very slow to out which costs us big points in a trial and other times he punches and takes cheap shots when he's guarding. This also costs you points and if your dog is bad enough they can add up to enough that you will not get a passing score.

Dawn, I know this is a bit off-topic...but how did you work on that with him?

pocketpit wrote:Christine, no I'm not talking about mud Katrina hit the nail on the head. We had an extremely difficult time teaching him to out. He loves biting and it was so hard to get him to understand that if he'd just let go when he was told to, there would be another opportunity to do it again. Sometimes he's very slow to out which costs us big points in a trial and other times he punches and takes cheap shots when he's guarding. This also costs you points and if your dog is bad enough they can add up to enough that you will not get a passing score.

Dawn, I know this is a bit off-topic...but how did you work on that with him?

Katrina, I tried a lot of different methods beginning with the easiest no correction method and worked my way up. Getting him to out for a tug was fairly easy and he learned out on the leg sleeve but all bets were off when we put him on the suit. I finally got a decoy that had excellent timing and was fast and fair to show him what I wanted while he was on a prong. Previously the prong only served to further his fight drive and a flat collar made me non existant. He finally got the basic concept down but has always been dirty. Being inexperienced with e-collar work I saved that for the last resort. However I wish now I'd used it sooner. It made everything black and white for him and once that happened he really understood that the out was merely a pause in the game not the end of it. He now happily outs (though he still pushe the boundaries occasionally or takes cheap shots) and guards.

pocketpit wrote:Katrina, I tried a lot of different methods beginning with the easiest no correction method and worked my way up. Getting him to out for a tug was fairly easy and he learned out on the leg sleeve but all bets were off when we put him on the suit. I finally got a decoy that had excellent timing and was fast and fair to show him what I wanted while he was on a prong. Previously the prong only served to further his fight drive and a flat collar made me non existant. He finally got the basic concept down but has always been dirty. Being inexperienced with e-collar work I saved that for the last resort. However I wish now I'd used it sooner. It made everything black and white for him and once that happened he really understood that the out was merely a pause in the game not the end of it. He now happily outs (though he still pushe the boundaries occasionally or takes cheap shots) and guards.

Nisha has always outed on a dime, but her problem always comes in the guard. We taught her the guard on a back-tie, and I would out her and tell her to sit...at first, as soon as she sat, she got the reward bite. Then, we added in the barking, so now she had to sit and bark to get the reward; one bark=reward bite. Well, when we started to extend it, she started to get dirty...she decided that she should've already gotten the reward, so she takes it upon herself to bite.

Her other problem is that even though I've always praised her in the bite, given her the reward with me right there (so I don't always take her away) is that as she sees me coming in, if she's in a guard, she gets dirty. So, we've been working her on backtie so that she's prohibited from getting dirty...but she doesn't seem to get it...

pocketpit wrote:What kind of equipment are you using on her and who handles corrections?

We started with a regular Schutzhund hard sleeve, but she wasn't dirty on that nor was she dirty on the shoulder sleeve. In fact, it wasn't until we put a fully-suited decoy in front of her that she was dirty.

So, we backtied her (backtie attached to her flat agitation collar), then I held the line attached to the prong. I was doing the correcting, but we were met with another challenge: she would start to look for me, and as soon as she saw me coming in, she'd get dirty (at first, she was just dirty whenever). So, Jerry said we were creating a conflict even worse than before, b/c now as I came in, she not only was expecting to be taken away, but she was going to get a correction for it.

So, what Jerry has us doing is he has a fully suited decoy who controls the line (so she learns to respect him), and the suited decoy really challenges her in the guard (when Rick does it, he literally bends over her and eye f*cks her). As she is guarding, they have me walk around, walk in to her, pet her once, walk behind the decoy - just all around, then they reward her at various times. At the end of the session, I take her off of backtie while she's in the grip, and the decoy slips the jacket for her. So, she never loses, and the corrections don't come from me...it's just a really slow process...

Jerry also said that we might want to consider teaching her to do a silent guard in a down position. He said this might cap her a bit, and help with the dirtiness...

My dogs guard in the down position for exactly that reason. When they are in the sit they are far more inclined to take cheap crotch shots. With my first Dobe it caused him to be slower to bite in during an escape because he was such a tall dog (29-30 inches at the shoulder) but it kept him clean since otherwise his head was in perfect alignment for cheap shots. Brody is not as gangly and tall so it doesn't slow him down as much and with the Mals of course it makes no difference at all. They're just so quick.I have a couple of thoughts on her outs. One of them was slipping the jacket and then I read that you were doing that. However, what would they think about slipping the jacket at random intervals for clean out/guards rather than just at the end? I'm glad to hear the decoy is now handling the prong line since that often helps clarify things and avoids the dog looking to the handler to judge just how much they can get away with. We always practice the handler moving in to and around the dog and giving escape bites for attention alternating with the decoy escaping and getting away with no bite if they leave the guard. Frustration tactics do nothing for the out of course but may help to fix the handler sensitivity. I usually do not try to teach two things at once so it's one or the other until they've got the idea. Food can also work well for correcting guards depending upon the dog. I used that for my first Dobe. He was very defensive and lower in prey drive. So while the decoy was fighting he loved it but when everything stopped he saw no reason to stay there and guard. He would rather return to me. So I would walk him back into the guard position and while giving him the "guard" command followed by a treat and praise. I think I had to do that for maybe two sessions before he got the idea. The other idea I would consider would be backing up just a bit in the training and remain standing next to her for the bite, out and guard until she's clean and then try to increase the distance and see what happens.There are a couple of other ideas that might work but those are a few that pop into my mind right away.

Thank you! I will definitely bring up your suggestions to Jerry, and see what he thinks. She had a rather nice session last night...she stayed in the guard, didn't get dirty...but she kept looking to me...so, the decoy just kept bringing more pressure...

I'm sure a big part of her problem is that Greg was her only decoy for a long time. I think that may have also created some conflict (i.e., why am I suddenly allowed to bite Daddy). So, there was a bunch of confusion there, and I think we made it worse in many ways...