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njb902 wrote:lets see on the one hand you have a $600 dollar 3rd party, and on the other a $60 dollar hasbro/takara......which one again is a waste of plastic?

This argument does not make sense to me.

Is cost a component in objectively evaluating the quality of a figure?

I mean, of course it's something to consider but no one puts a BMW next to a Kia and calls the BMW a piece of garbage because they can't afford it.

Actually, njb902 didn't say anything about not being able to afford the $600 figure(at least not in the post you quoted). There's a huge difference in not being able to afford something expensive versus not thinking the toy is worth the expense. Maybe one would even rather have 5 Bruticuses(Brutici?) than one Hercules... who knows?

I know it's easy if you think that the expensive one is bar none the best the market has to offer to assume that everyone else thinks so too and just claims to dislike it because they merely can't afford it, but you must understand that people do have different opinions than you do, regardless of how seemingly unlikely it is.

Counterpunch wrote:Perhaps the price makes one figure a better suit for a particular buyer but there is zero, absolutely zero question that the recent 3rd party combiners are better combining robot figures than FoC Bruticus in any color scheme when considering engineering.

If it's going to be an honest discussion at least keep it in the realm of reasonable

But that also can be debated. There is more to consider than amount of articulation, size, transformation, or number of parts being used. We must also consider that Hasbro has many other aspects to their toy engineering that limit what they can and can't practically make. The main and IMO most obvious one is that Hasbro isn't aiming for adult collectors, they're aiming at kids. That does not necessarily include the detail they put on the figure, but the aesthetics of the figure, the pricing, and the safety of the toy.

Hasbro has to adhere to modern-day toy safety standards, which hinder the construction of a toy a lot.Sharp parts need to be dulled or configured for less risk to the young consumers. The toys have to survive drop tests so parts won't fly off and injure or kill a random bystander. The toy mustn't look like a weapon to a law enforcement officer so the wielder of the toy won't get shot in self-defense.

But there's more. The toys must be set at a price that appears affordable to the average parent. Most parents won't bother with a 6-inch robot toy if it costs too much, no matter how good an adult collector might think it looks. The toy also has to be easy to understand for the average consumer, which helps on designing costs.

And considering all those rules, let's take a look at Fall of Cybertron Bruticus again. Okay, modern day 5-bot combiner with at least deluxe-sized component bots, check. An average-level of modern-day articulation on both component bots and all combined formations, check. A "scramble city"-type gimmick that raises play value and chances of completing a full combined form, check. Zero combiner kibble so consumers won't lose a whole giant robot if they lose a piece while playing, check. Component weapons combine, check. Cheap enough for parents to buy(not to mention the components all looking different), check. Plenty of colors to choose from, check.

Considering all of the rules Hasbro engineers had to adhere to while making a modern-day combiner, yes, it could be debated whether or not it has better engineering than 3rd-party combiners. Consider if the 3rd-party engineers worked for Hasbro, limited by the same rules. What are the odds that they could come up with something better?

This does make a lot of sense but I think they could have done better. Because anything they bring over from takaras MP line has to go thru the same rules right and they are a lot nicer. I really think if they didn't do the scramble city thing he would be a lot nicer but by doing the scramble city they gave them selves options to repaint and rename the figures and put out another combiner to make more money off of the same molds. And yes they do this for individual figures but it just seems a little cheap on their part. Because in the end hasbro is about making as much money off of their products as they can. and I understand that it's why people start Buisnesses. But recycling a whole combiner and trying to sell him as a totally different combiner is just wrong. Big deal his head is different I'm still paying $100 or more if I want to complete my set. And what about some of the great designs of some of the prime figures they couldn't put more creativity in to bruticus. I remember listening to a hasbro panel when they first introduced bruticus. And I remember them talking about the new connection points that they said were gonna allow them to do amazing things with their combiners. What is so amazing please let me know and you said hasbro has to follow rules that won't let them make figures like 3rd party. What about rotf leader class prime the transformation is great on that figure and we are also getting jetwing prime these figure wernt hindered by rules. Hasbro just really bit the bullet on bruticus IMO they could have down a way better job but they seen a way were they could make more money and it cost the figure.

You wrote a lot of words but really did not address the simple point I made in my comment.

I really can't discuss the matter any further because all I said was that disregarding cost, the 3rd party combiners have been better figures.

I do not care about any rationalizations for why Hasbro has created the product they have.

In a vacuum, in a purely "which is better, side by side, pair-wise comparison", I am stating that the non-Hasbro combiner products are superior.

In a real world context, price, availability, etc all come in to play.

I really don't see what's so difficult to accept in all of this.

If you only collect "Hasbro/Takara Transformers" that's one thing but it's a different thing. However, under the context of what I've set forth here, if you think that FoC Bruticus is a better overall toy than MT Giant, Herc, or FP Colossus; then I would call into question your ability to evaluate quality toys.

Wait I'm lost who are u talking to because I love my 3rd party I think FOC bruticus is bad. Price has nothing to do with it just the quality of the figure

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Counterpunch wrote:If you only collect "Hasbro/Takara Transformers" that's one thing but it's a different thing. However, under the context of what I've set forth here, if you think that FoC Bruticus is a better overall toy than MT Giant, Herc, or FP Colossus; then I would call into question your ability to evaluate quality toys.

Bottom line is this ... it's not a fair comparison to compare a $500 to $600 toy that was made with far fewer restrictions than what Hasbro must adhere to. Percentage-wise it's like comparing 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt, which retailed around $20,000, to a $200,000 car. I mean, you can compare them, but cost is a HUGE factor when it comes to these things and you're obviously comparing things that are very far apart on this spectrum.

The other factor here is that people should be able to express their enjoyment of this figure without being attacked by people who support unofficial and unlicensed products. I'm tired of 3rd party fans constantly attacking official products and acting like those products are superior.

Counterpunch wrote:I really can't discuss the matter any further because all I said was that disregarding cost, the 3rd party combiners have been better figures.

I do not care about any rationalizations for why Hasbro has created the product they have.

You might not care, but it's certainly relevant to this topic. And disregarding facts relevant to the topic isn't gonna win you arguments.

Counterpunch wrote:In a vacuum, in a purely "which is better, side by side, pair-wise comparison", I am stating that the non-Hasbro combiner products are superior.

You can't judge a toy simply by standing them side-by-side, there is much more to it than that. Playability is far more important to a toy's worth. That's the reason why most toys exist in the first place, after all.

Counterpunch wrote:In a real world context, price, availability, etc all come in to play.

I really don't see what's so difficult to accept in all of this.

Your argument is "difficult to accept" because it's rooted in subjective claims. You're attempting to profess your opinions as if they are facts. I'm sorry, but it don't work like that.

Counterpunch wrote:If you only collect "Hasbro/Takara Transformers" that's one thing but it's a different thing. However, under the context of what I've set forth here, if you think that FoC Bruticus is a better overall toy than MT Giant, Herc, or FP Colossus; then I would call into question your ability to evaluate quality toys.

Who said anyone only collects Hasbro/TakaraTomy figures? And even if one did, personal collection habits are irrelevant. Arguments are supported by the merits of the claims, not by personal aspects of either party.

And it's also irrelevant that you wish to question the opposition's ability to evaluate quality toys. First because it's only your own personal opinion of what constitutes as good evaluation, and second of all, what you call "evaluating" seems to merely be personally judging aspects of a toy based on one's own bias.

Seibertron wrote:Bottom line is this ... it's not a fair comparison to compare a $500 to $600 toy that was made with far fewer restrictions than what Hasbro must adhere to. Percentage-wise it's like comparing 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt, which retailed around $20,000, to a $200,000 car. I mean, you can compare them, but cost is a HUGE factor when it comes to these things and you're obviously comparing things that are very far apart on this spectrum.

I would concede Hasbro having to adhere to more regulations and such, but I don't think the price difference is a very valid argument in the products. 3rd Party figs generally cost what they do because of the numbers they're produced in and the ripoff profit margins retailers have on them. And when TFCC and the like produce repaints in limited numbers they charge comparable prices...and those molds are already developed with those costs already recouped.

i pre-ordered this BEAUTIFUL G2 goodness a week ago and i looked at those SDCC pics of the figure, i'm probably wrong but is the G2 bruticus on display a hand-painted model like the generations FOC starscream was?

i pre-ordered this BEAUTIFUL G2 goodness a week ago and i looked at those SDCC pics of the figure, i'm probably wrong but is the G2 bruticus on display a hand-painted model like the generations FOC starscream was?

P.S im new here but im also on TFW, so hello everybody!

Welcome, friend! I too am looking forward to G2 deco Bruticus. The mold has issues, but I'm still saying that it can be made to look pretty great. And the thing is quite pleasantly tall.

i pre-ordered this BEAUTIFUL G2 goodness a week ago and i looked at those SDCC pics of the figure, i'm probably wrong but is the G2 bruticus on display a hand-painted model like the generations FOC starscream was?

P.S im new here but im also on TFW, so hello everybody!

Just wanted to give you an official welcome to Seibertron.com, SG hailstorm. Thanks for signing up. Hope to see you here some more.

I bought a sdcc brut from someone and while the box was amazing the figure was not. So I put him back in the box and got my money back and pre ordered this version. Because $60 isn't a bad price for 5 deluxe figure that combined even if the combined mode is a let down IMO. Even the retail version is gonna cost over $100 and you have to hunt them down. Also the g2 version comes in a nice box I'm surprised more people are not getting this version for the price alone.