No matter how you cut the cake, the .300 Blackout is a low velocity, short range, .30 caliber cartridge. One only has to look at it's case capacity in relationship to bullet weight. It's next to nothing.

Your argument breaks down because you are not considering the extreme efficiency of 300 BLK. It has 5 grains less powder than 5.56mm, and yet it has more energy from a 16 inch barrel than 5.56mm has from a 24 inch barrel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

With heavy bullets it has the trajectory of a rainbow

Most loads are 110-125 grain bullets. You can shoot out to 230 yards or so with no sight adjustment at all. If the M4 with M855 has a 550 meter range, than a 9 inch 300 BLK is 440 meters with the same drift and drop. That is not much less - especially since the Army only trains to shoot out to 300 meters to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

The .300 Blackout is nothing more than an attempt to make an AK-47 out of an AR-15. If you want a .30 caliber AR rifle, you can have it in the AR-10 in .308.

The AK47 has very poor ergonomics, modularity, and optics options. An AR15 will always be a nicer platform - but now can shoot 30 caliber bullets like an AK47. The bullets being used for 300 BLK are much better than anything loaded in 7.62x39. No one wants to make custom 0.311 bullets as the bullet companies think of 7.62x39 buyers are not willing to pay for higher-end ammunition. 300 BLK uses standard 308 diameter bullets.

Your argument breaks down because you are not considering the extreme efficiency of 300 BLK. It has 5 grains less powder than 5.56mm, and yet it has more energy from a 16 inch barrel than 5.56mm has from a 24 inch barrel.

What "efficiency"? That's only because you're comparing it to a .22. Compare it to other .30 caliber cartridges and it's ballistically pathetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

Most loads are 110-125 grain bullets. You can shoot out to 230 yards or so with no sight adjustment at all.

A 110 grain bullet in .30 caliber is the lightest you can shoot. It sheds velocity like a snake sheds skin, because it has no sectional density. Look at the long range .30 caliber shooters. All of their bullets are close to, if not over double that in weight. The .300 Blackout has no case capacity. To make up for that in order to get any descent velocity you have to shoot very light bullets. No matter how you want to look at that, it is a poor performing .30 caliber cartridge. Especially at long range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

The AK47 has very poor ergonomics, modularity, and optics options. An AR15 will always be a nicer platform. - but now can shoot 30 caliber bullets like an AK47. The bullets being used for 300 BLK are much better than anything loaded in 7.62x39. No one wants to make custom 0.311 bullets as the bullet companies think of 7.62x39 buyers are not willing to pay for higher-end ammunition. 300 BLK uses standard 308 diameter bullets.

Then simply buy the Rock River in 7.62 X 39 MM AR-15. You can use standard AK-47 magazines in an AR platform rifle. You have a cartridge that isn't some bastardized, expensive abortion, and is avaliable cheaply on the world wide market. It also performs better ballistically because it has a greater case capacity. No matter how much you try to sell this thing, you're in fact selling a cartridge based on a cut down .22 case, necked up to shoot a .30 caliber bullet. What makes this thing so wonderful in suppressed weapons is the same thing that makes it pitiful at long range. It's slow.

What "efficiency"? That's only because you're comparing it to a .22. Compare it to other .30 caliber cartridges and it's ballistically pathetic.

A 110 grain bullet in .30 caliber is the lightest you can shoot. It sheds velocity like a snake sheds skin, because it has no sectional density. Look at the long range .30 caliber shooters. All of their bullets are close to, if not over double that in weight. The .300 Blackout has no case capacity. To make up for that in order to get any descent velocity you have to shoot very light bullets. No matter how you want to look at that, it is a poor performing .30 caliber cartridge. Especially at long range.

Then simply buy the Rock River in 7.62 X 39 MM AR-15. You can use standard AK-47 magazines in an AR platform rifle. You have a cartridge that isn't some bastardized, expensive abortion, and is avaliable cheaply on the world wide market. It also performs better ballistically because it has a greater case capacity. No matter how much you try to sell this thing, you're in fact selling a cartridge based on a cut down .22 case, necked up to shoot a .30 caliber bullet. What makes this thing so wonderful in suppressed weapons is the same thing that makes it pitiful at long range. It's slow.

My father in law sure did rip the belongings out of a hog at 245 yds. Just saying. It works for him and he loves it.

What "efficiency"? That's only because you're comparing it to a .22. Compare it to other .30 caliber cartridges and it's ballistically pathetic.

It makes no sense to call it pathetic compared to full power cartridges. This is not for 15 lb rifles so there is no reason to compare it to 308 or 300 WM. In an AR15 - at 6 lbs - it is a significant bump in power over 5.56mm - yet still has 30 round capacity. 300 BLK is not a full power cartridge. It is an intermediate cartridge - an assault rifle cartridge.

There are no 5.56mm bullets which expand to more than 0.400 inches at 300 yards, yet 300 BLK expands to 0.600 at that range - all while still penetrating 20 or more inches. And 300 BLK has ammunition which has better performance through intermediate barriers than anything in 5.56mm - including the best FBI-spec ammunition.

When you get a 45 Auto pistol you may gain over 9mm in terminal performance, but lose magazine capacity. 300 BLK has no such issue.

300 BLK is closest to 7.62x39mm in power. Though due to the high BC bullets, it has 16.7% more energy at 300 meters than the Lapua 762x39mm ammunition.

But I was talking about efficiency, not power. It makes more power than 5.56mm even though it has smaller case capacity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

A 110 grain bullet in .30 caliber is the lightest you can shoot. It sheds velocity like a snake sheds skin, because it has no sectional density.

The BC of the Barnes 100 grain bullet is 0.289. The BC of the Sierra 125 MK is 0.338. They are not low BC bullets by any means. Again, if the M4 with M855 has a 550 meter range, than 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel is 440 meters - same drift and drop. In return, you get better performance at the ranges that you will actually shoot stuff at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

Look at the long range .30 caliber shooters. All of their bullets are close to, if not over double that in weight.

I don't see the relevance of talking about long-range 30 caliber shooters or long range in general. 308 and 300 WM do not work from AR15s. If you want long range in an AR15, there is 6.5 Grendal for that. 300 BLK is an intermediate cartridge designed to fit into an AR15 magazine and optimal for the ranges at which nearly all shots take place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

Then simply buy the Rock River in 7.62 X 39 MM AR-15. You can use standard AK-47 magazines in an AR platform rifle. You have a cartridge that isn't some bastardized, expensive abortion, and is avaliable cheaply on the world wide market. It also performs better ballistically because it has a greater case capacity.

300 BLK ammunition is cheaper than 30-30. Don't believe me - go to CheaperThanDirt and do a search for all 300 BLK they have, and all 30-30 they have. 300 BLK is as low as $8.50 a box, and once the steel cased ammunition comes out, it will be even less.

I could argue against the Rock River comment, but that is pointless. No one wants that, and 300 BLK is on fire with popularity. US LE and military are not going to buy 7.62x39mm.

Then simply buy the Rock River in 7.62 X 39 MM AR-15. You can use standard AK-47 magazines in an AR platform rifle. You have a cartridge that isn't some bastardized, expensive abortion, and is avaliable cheaply on the world wide market.

You are seriously using the term bastardized while suggesting someone get an AR lower that has a 7.62x39mm magwell?

Reloading for 300 BLK is super inexpensive. You can get 223 brass for free. If you don't want to form it, there are people who will sell you ready to load brass for 10 cents a case.

It makes no sense to call it pathetic compared to full power cartridges.

It makes even lesser sense to compare it to .22's in order to make it look good from a ballistic standpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

This is not for 15 lb rifles so there is no reason to compare it to 308 or 300 WM. In an AR15 - at 6 lbs..........

You can buy 6 pound .308's all day long. A .308 AR weighs around 8 pounds. No one is talking about 15 pound guns here except you. Christ, my .300 Win. Mag. rifles don't even come close to that. You're reaching. Really reaching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

When you get a 45 Auto pistol you may gain over 9mm in terminal performance, but lose magazine capacity.

No you don't. There are plenty of Hi-Cap .45's. Besides what does a .300 Blackout have to do with pistol cartridges? Except for the fact it's not much more powerful than one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

300 BLK is closest to 7.62x39mm in power. Though due to the high BC bullets, it has 16.7% more energy at 300 meters than the Lapua 762x39mm ammunition.

Who the hell buys Lapua ammo in 7.62 X 39MM?? You're picking fly $h!t out of pepper. The AK round is a well established cartridge, the .300 BO isn't. It is also far more costly and hard to find. You can't shoot what you can't buy. The AK round has been around world wide since 1947. How long will this thing last?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

But I was talking about efficiency, not power. It makes more power than 5.56mm even though it has smaller case capacity.

Again, you're comparing it to a .22 in order to make it look good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

300 BLK ammunition is cheaper than 30-30.

So what? Why are you comparing a Hi-Cap semi auto round to a lever action? It's plain silly. It performs close to a the 7.62 X 39MM. There is no cost comparision to be made. The AK round is literally cheaper than dirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

300 BLK is on fire with popularity.

Yes, it's the flavor of the week in AR calibers. Just like the 6.5 Grendel was last week, and something else will be next week. Come back after the novelty wears off. You won't have to wait long, because someone is always trying to make the AR-15 into something it never was intended to be, in order to "improve" it.

I picked Lapua for the example because it has reliable BC and velocity data available for it. I could give similar examples with Hornady or Winchester ammunition, but the results are about the same - there is no 7.62x39mm ammunition which has mor energy than 300 BLK past about 120 yards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

The AK round is a well established cartridge, the .300 BO isn't. It is also far more costly and hard to find. You can't shoot what you can't buy. The AK round has been around world wide since 1947. How long will this thing last?

7.62x39mm is a great round. I love it in my AKs. It is just not good for ARs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

Again, you're comparing it to a .22 in order to make it look good.

I am comparing it to 5.56mm because that is the most popular choice for AR15s. I don't expect 300 BLK to be more popular than 5.56mm. I do expect it to be the number one alternative cartridge for people who want a larger bullet. 223 is not even legal to hunt deer with in many states. 300 BLK is the most practical alternative due to a much lower cost than other options and it works in normal magazines and with normal bolts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

So what? Why are you comparing a Hi-Cap semi auto round to a lever action? It's plain silly. It performs close to a the 7.62 X 39MM. There is no cost comparision to be made. The AK round is literally cheaper than dirt.

30-30 is hugely popular, and the lever action was the # rifle for many decades - even a century. Now the AR15 has replaced it as the most popular rifle, and 300 BLK is the cartridge that will make the most sense to the most people who want a larger bullet than 223/5.56mm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billt

Yes, it's the flavor of the week in AR calibers. Just like the 6.5 Grendel was last week, and something else will be next week.

It is more like 40 S&W than 65 Grendal in terms of how popular it is becoming. There are now 120 companies involved with 300 BLK.

30-30 is hugely popular, and the lever action was the # rifle for many decades - even a century.

On that basis you should compare it to the .22 long rifle. It been hugely popular, and has been around even longer. And not only that, it would make the .300 BO look even better! I hope you can see the silliness of where you're going with all of this. And please do tell me where I can get .223 brass free for the taking!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsilvers

It is more like 40 S&W than 65 Grendal in terms of how popular it is becoming. There are now 120 companies involved with 300 BLK.

rsilvers is in the industry...very much involved. Not everyone has to like this round...it has its place. Those who realize its usefulness will make good use of it. Those who have no need for it will skip it all together. I have several customers that have placed special orders with me for Noveske 8.2" 300BLK uppers for suppressed SBR use. I will say this, for HD, I'd rather have an 8.2" suppressed 300BLK, than an 18" .308 that will blow a hole through the whole house and hit the neighbor's dog. However, I live in Commiefornia and owning a suppressed SBR is not going to happen.

With regards to 7.62x39, I believe bolt head failure is or was a problem with regards to using the round in an AR platform.

Will this round live to be a mainstream caliber? I don't know, but it is looking pretty promising with all the backing it is getting.