Mike Underhill wrote:Paul, perhaps too late on this first job, but maybe a future outhouse could have the user squatting on a surface level or near level with the hole over the can. This "squatty potty" design honors the way humans are built and leads to much improved evacuation for users - there are health benefits to that. It's different, but I'll bet those who try it will never go back to the 90-degree stance. Perfect for get-in-get-out types.

I purchased a squatty potty years ago and love it. Makes the complete elimination of waste much easier. My daughter used to have problems eliminated but the squatting position helped alot. I have coworkers from India who actually climb up on the toilet at work with their feet on the seat so they can squat.

Another bathroom item I love is my Bidet Toilet Seat Attachment. Amazon has them for $30-$40 dollars. This can work in an outhouse by conecting it to a basic pump garden sprayer. All you need to do is to splice the tube leaving the spayer to the tube entering the Bidet. Pump the sprayer to build pressure and it works fine. I curently have my bidet inside on citywater now though. It really does not use much water and used with a little toilet paper makes you feel much cleaner. If your brave and willing to add more water to your poop compost you could spray yourself totally clean but then have a dry rag "with your name on it" to pat yourself dry. In theory everyone would have there own "dry your bum" towel hanging up. This could eliminate the need for toilet paper...maybe?

paul wheaton wrote:We have not yet fired up the sawmill. Come on out and you can be the first. My only concern is that the wood needs to dry before use. Unless, of course, you have awesome green woodworking skills. Plus, while we now have the generator for the sawmill - I would really prefer to have Caleb's battery cart ready for action.

You have the door at the end .... you like that better than the door going in at the side like Jesse did?

I have some green woodworking skills, I wouldn't call them awesome though. When wood dries almost of the shrinkage is radial. The tangential shrinkage is very minute. This is specie dependent of course but I'm guessing your working with doug fir or pine. This means a board width will decrease a little, but it's length will not change at all. Timber framing is a way to make a frame with green wood, then let it dry together so that it moves and tightens as it moves. This may be too involved for pooper number 1 though. You could still make the frame with green lumber though, because the tangential shrinkage is minimal the building will be sound.

As for siding, board and baton siding is a great way to work with green lumber. You fasten two boards next to each other (there will still be gaps if it's rough sawn) and then a baton covering the seam. This way as the boards shrink the baton is still covering the whole gap. The batons can even be the cutoff's from taking your slabs down to dimensional lumber.

When the battery cart/solar array is ready to go let me know and I'll come up and show people how to safely fell trees and saw lumber. Solar panels are really cheap right now, around $250 to $280 a panel. It's a good time to buy. How many watts does the mill draw? Is it 2 pull? I've never seen an electric sawmill before. It may be better to even just get a mobile solar array, like a solar generator, so you could run the saw mill when it's sunny.

I put the door at the end for two reasons. The overhang will help limit snow in the winter, and the skids that extend out the side for moving also would make a nice step to enter.

You would have to estimate for shrinkage looking for a tighter fit, saw guy who was making a frame with greener wood, part of his process was caulking the gaps, just used hand tools for the whole process was part of a teaching class in building, very interesting and lots of work.

For venting. Paint some large VC pipe black and have it extend well above the roof. Could also be exposed on the outside on the south side. The pipe will heat up in the sun. This as we know causes a stack rise. This stink will be sucked up out of the pit of poop. Also, the venturi effect from wind with a simple cap to prevent a downdraft. Simple, low tech and doable.

Michael Cox wrote:Paul Wheaton - If you haven't already I strongly suggest reading the "Humanure Handbook". You should be able to do a search and get a pdf version. We have been using his system for years for both indoor and outdoor toilets. Absolutely no odour issues, rapid hot composting of waste, no flies etc...

I suspect that it will end up influencing your design choices a fair bit!

Michael, please check out my extensive writings and podcasts about the humanure book. There are a lot of things in the book that I don't agree with.

I'm having trouble finding these writings...are threads deleted after two years?

Jesse Biggs wrote:It seems there are a few items Paul really wants to include in this first pooper attempt. After spending a fair bit of time kicking it around with him, I'd say the reasons are many and based on years and years of experience, research, and legal stuff among other things.

1) Absolutely no poop touches anything but the inside of a trash can and other poop for a solid 2 years.

2) The pooper can be dragged around.

3) Pee diversion.

4) Smelly stuff is siphoned out as quickly and efficiently as possible in all seasons and during the day and night.

5) Big broad roof so no paint has to be used.

6) Spacious.

7) For more of the inside scoop on poop, there's probably no substitute for showing up in person and enjoying some face time with the Duke himself. Turns out talking poopers can be enjoyable.

I think, as much as there might be good reasons for number one, I think that not only could it be done better, I think it could be done MUCH better, and cycled much more completely using biological means, as has been mentioned elsewhere, cycling through many different macrobiotic detrivores (BSFL, red worms, mealworms). Also, I don't think this type of two-year biological exile will do anything to break down pharmaceutical contaminants, as mycoculture would.

I would also like clarification on number four. Why is siphoning necessary in a properly ventilated chamber, with the stack causing smells to bypass the interior of the outhouse entirely? How do you reconcile the removal of "smelly stuff" with the fact that removing it constitutes a breach of pathogen containment?

I am of the firm opinion that if the pooper is mobile or involves containers that get switched out, that it would be better to have no-contact transfer ports and hoses with valves that enable the pumping of wastes to somewhere it could be handled centrally, however that is managed, from sequestration for two years (which I think is insufficient and an inefficient use of time and resources) to pyrolysis or slightly slower biological cycling. All of these can keep wastes from contacting humans or the food system directly.

The ultimate in containment, in my opinion, is still an outhouse, dry or wet, surrounded by poop beasts and, if necessary, a cedar-swamp analog (an open cesspit surrounded by trees, usually poop beasts and fragrant woods like cedar, where woodchips are added as a carbon to offset the excess nitrogen).

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

There will be many experiments. This design represents one set of experiments.

I think a lot of people will have different goals and different things they would like to try. I encourage those discussions to happen in the composting toilet forum. This thread is for clarity on this design.

How, though, do you siphon off the smelly stuff and keep the pathogens contained (as per item number 4)? And why is this preferable to simply topping up with the carbon additive in the hopper?

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

I am interested in the hopper for sawdust/carbon...how does it function in the design? I can't visualize where the outlet enters the poop barrel and then, maybe I have misunderstood and the hopper is just for outdoor storage and isn't directed at the deposit. This is a refinement I would like on our own sawdust toilet

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"In the garden of gentle sanity, May you be bombarded by coconuts of wakefulness.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa

The can is to be plastic. Vise grips will eventually break the plastic as it ages and is exposed to freeze/thaw cycles and the elements. Integrated handles are better than visegrips, in my opinion.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

In Africa on guy came up with the idea of putting a mesh box on top of the vent. The pathogen spreading flies would be caught when flying towards the light from the vent and die there after some time. You could feed them to the chickens as per Paul's idea about yellowjackets...

Right on. My only concern would be the upcycling of residual chemicals back into the food web. I have been thinking about it, and I think that the first step for complete treatment of poop in a way that breaks down these residues to prevent their transmission is mycoremediation. Perhaps a carbon medium could be innoculated with some aggressive mycelia, oyster mushrooms, or whatever grows on cow pats, such that when the full buckets are set aside, the mushroom colony would busily colonise (sorry for the pun) the whole mess. To be sure, the results of the process would need to be tested after the mushroom stage, but you might find that poop buckets make fungal food for pigs, no residues, no pathogens, and no extensive reworking of existing plans.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

In Africa on guy came up with the idea of putting a mesh box on top of the vent. The pathogen spreading flies would be caught when flying towards the light from the vent and die there after some time. You could feed them to the chickens as per Paul's idea about yellowjackets...

A plank or planks with a hole in it that the container below is easily able to be aligned with. Perhaps a loaction template where the container is situated will help with this alignment. I would not personally enclose the container - this is a) more costly with materials and b) better for ventilation.

The enclosed space of the toilet should have a door that is suitable for all seasons and the internal space should have a ventilation hole that can be opend and closed as weather permits. The idea of a vent stack is a good one, but it would have to be at least 4 metres high in order to work effectively. Alternatively I would go for a better ventilated space around the container and a hinged lid to help disuade air circulation up through the seating area.

The main consideration would be the removal of the waste and the treatment of it between clean-outs. I have a concern that the containers will accelerate the smell issue as the humidity and more poo and urine than 'other stuff' mix will create a sludge rather than a more healthy moist solids type 'melange'. You need to get a supply of dry and ideally absorbative matter that is used to cover up the users deposit so that it can be more easily handled and composted.

When not consider just a 'drop zone' that can be easily emptied by a shovel? Build the shed on a slope with the entrance uphill and teh seat downhill and this will buy you room underneath. Most examples on You-tube do not rely on containers to capture waste, usually the person with responsibility for compositng has the duty of visiting often with a wheelbarrow - bringing organic matter with them as they collect....

Hey Glyn. Just a few things. I get the impression that you have as yet to listen to many of Paul's podcasts on the subject of dry outhouses. Doing that, and reading any articles he has on the subject, and browsing the forums will put you in the same ballpark as what Paul is attempting with his first pooper.

Whatever I think of Paul's approach of sealed buckets on a two-year sequestration, I much prefer the idea of switching out sealed buckets to a clear-out area under the shitter that someone has to clean regularly with a shovel.

Lastly, your suggestion has managed to ignore Paul's need for the whole thing to be mobile.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Glyn Tutt

Posts: 14

posted 4 years ago

1

Hello Chris,

I accept your points entirely, my offering is just consistent with my personal experience of shitters (I prefer that name!) I just have never seen a mobile one - except for the type I have in my garden which is a simple bench and hole...... left in a secluded place that has lots of leaves around!

I also understand fully the unpleasant nature of the stuff that is deposited during the process, but again, a well ventilated and managed arrangement is not at all smelly - the main issue is flies and such. Surely that is the point of permaculture? We live in a wonderfully smelly and messy world, getting back to basics is what it is all about and if our solutions constantly need oil based polmer products (i.e. plastic containers) when there are solutions that do without, then how perma is the culture?

I know Paul wants a mobile 'pooper' - so he will have one. I'm only questioning the basis of that need - I run a lot of projects and always approach a new project with the following questions of guidance....

Why are you doing it?
What else could be done instead?
What are the consequences of not doing it?
How have your timescale/resource constraints been determined?
How does it contribute to your strategy/goals?
What is its priority/importance?
Who is the user and how will it be maintained?

I think one of the main considerations here is the containment of pathogens in an anaerobic environment (when the bucket is full and gets swapped out and sealed) where they can all die over two years in biological exile.

I have a thread, in the composting toilets forum, I think, that Paul originally moved from this one, where I proposed alternatives to the two-year exile that you might find interesting.

Though this isn't the goal for Paul's Pooper, I think my take on a mobile shitter would involve digging a pit and planting appropriate trees and shrubbery to uptake the nutrients. When I feel the need to move the shitter, I would dig a new hole, and plant an appropriate tree atop the covered-over old hole.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Need to chamfer the bottoms of those runner log ends so it will skid easier. Otherwise it looks sturdier than a brick ____house

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." --Francis of Assisi.
"Family farms work when the whole family works the farm." -- Adam Klaus

Kelly Kitchens

Posts: 37

Location: Tulsa, OK (zone 7a)

posted 4 years ago

Scott, Tim plans to bevel the log ends with a chainsaw prior to pulling it, which will take virtually no time at all. There were multiple problems at first getting the base trued enough to provide a square and level base for the platform and uprights, so I think it was better to not dislodge them until the upper structure was more complete. Also, leaving as much material on early gives the most flexibility in potentially modifing the design on the fly.

Paul, thanks for posting the current pic. I was wondering how the logs Charley and Morgan peeled were going to be attached to the rafters. I see Tim added some purlins between rafters, and the diagonal bracing we were going to put in on the Fourth are installed now... with those slots cut into the roof logs for the rafters I bet the lateral bracing we were worried about isn't nearly as much of an issue.

The poopdeck seems to be coming along well. Will you be posting some closeups of the shake nail-down process? I'm pretty curious about that, as well as how the trombe chimney assembly will develop.

Over the last few days the saw mill was put together by many people and we were sure that a critical part was missing. Fortunately, Paul Redmond and RJ found the part and after a few more trouble we were firing the saw mill and cutting some boards until the belt broke and now we have to wait for a part.

Here is a picture of Paul using the saw mill.

I must say this is a really smooth, quiet sawmill. Oh! and did I say that it is both portable and electric!

Adrien Lapointe wrote:Over the last few days the saw mill was put together by many people and we were sure that a critical part was missing. Fortunately, Paul Redmond and RJ found the part and after a few more trouble we were firing the saw mill and cutting some boards until the belt broke and now we have to wait for a part.

Here is a picture of Paul using the saw mill.

I must say this is a really smooth, quiet sawmill. Oh! and did I say that it is both portable and electric!