This is fantastic. Rather than directly giving Starfleet knowledge of events to come --- Spock Prime, while during the day he's helping to manage colonization of the Vulcan diaspora, by night he forms an elite team consisting of Guinan, Data, and Emony Dax, to deal with threats such as the Doomsday Machine, the Whale Probe, Khan, etc.

This is fantastic. Rather than directly giving Starfleet knowledge of events to come --- Spock Prime, while during the day he's helping to manage colonization of the Vulcan diaspora, by night he forms an elite team consisting of Guinan, Data, and Emony Dax, to deal with threats such as the Doomsday Machine, the Whale Probe, Khan, etc.

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Throw in a young Morgan Bates and you've got yourself what I consider a quality plan, there.

They believe that certain things are fated to happen, regardless of if it makes sense. They even said that time tries to repair itself, which is basically mumbo jumbo for fate, not determinism.

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Orci: "For all those decrying fate, there is actually a quantum mechanical basis for the “fate function” in this film that we have discussed previously. In a multiverse where, as Data once said “anything that can happen, does happen, in a parallel universe…” there is a probability (a number) associated with each possible configuration. Those events that are most probable are theorized to occur more often in more similar universes. Thus, the idea that Kirk and Spock and Bones come together is merely an indication that the probability assigned to such an event is very high in the multiverse. Some may mistake this for blind fate."

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If he's referring to the Many Worlds theory, the probability should be 100% and therfore fair game for a movie. Abrams can point the camera anyplace he chooses, and with infinite parallel realities from which to choose, any sequence of events a screenwriter can think of will be happening somewhere, for him to film.

Of course this is not how time travel has worked in Star Trek to date, but since when has logical consistency stopped the writers? They havent been particularly consistent before now.

They believe that certain things are fated to happen, regardless of if it makes sense. They even said that time tries to repair itself, which is basically mumbo jumbo for fate, not determinism.

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Orci: "For all those decrying fate, there is actually a quantum mechanical basis for the “fate function” in this film that we have discussed previously. In a multiverse where, as Data once said “anything that can happen, does happen, in a parallel universe…” there is a probability (a number) associated with each possible configuration. Those events that are most probable are theorized to occur more often in more similar universes. Thus, the idea that Kirk and Spock and Bones come together is merely an indication that the probability assigned to such an event is very high in the multiverse. Some may mistake this for blind fate."

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If he's referring to the Many Worlds theory, the probability should be 100% and therfore fair game for a movie. Abrams can point the camera anyplace he chooses, and with infinite parallel realities from which to choose, any sequence of events a screenwriter can think of will be happening somewhere, for him to film.

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I'm afraid not. The problem with Orci's "explanation" is that the JJverse was not a universe chosen form a near infinite number specifically because it matched what the writers intended.

It’s a universe that was, of course, based directly on the prime reality, but was then significantly disrupted. The normal result of that is to almost certainly make the events that happened in the prime universe less likely, not hasten their occurrence (in the most implausible ways possible)!

That means there is therefore nothing about the JJverse that implies a 100% probability that Kirk and Co will get together. In fact the opposite is obviously true. You would need to believe in fate or some form of Pantheism perhaps, for what we saw to actually occur.

Or as Ryan8bit responded, rather more succinctly, to Orci's excuse: "That is, of course, total hogwash.". I could have sworn he said "BS".

Doesn't Spock say something (in City on the Edge…) to the effect that time flows like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash? Couldn't such a perspective influence the "JJ-universe" in such a way as to cause these people to come together, despite the odds against it, as it caused Spock and Kirk to come together with McCoy?

(I think the whole idea is errant nonsense if applied to the real world, but as it is a precedent in Trek, why not?)

I don't think there's a precedent. Spock's line in CotEoF referred more to where time travelers end up, not that events are fated to happen as a result of time travel (it's quite clear that the opposite happens in that episode). It would be more analogous to Spock Prime and Nero arriving relatively near to each other position-wise.

Worth consideration is that Spock Prime was already back at Starfleet Command when the decision to leave Kirk in command of the Enterprise was made. Imagine a (obviously actually longer) conversation that goes something like this:

Spock Prime, speaking to the Federation President and the Admiralty: "So, in conclusion, gentlebeings, we can go ahead and act to preempt all of the threats (V'Ger, Khan, the Whalesong Probe, the parasites planning to take over Starfleet, the Borg, etc, etc) that I have just outlined for you. Oh, and I'm sure you'll agree that the Enterprise command crew as I knew them needs to be kept together with Kirk in command, to sharpshoot any other problems that may arise or that can't be preempted."

And if you think about it, this actually provides a REASON that the Enterprise may be "the only ship available", at least in this continuity: Starfleet is sending them on purpose.

You would need to believe in fate or some form of Pantheism perhaps, for what we saw to actually occur.

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You would need nothing of the sort. What we saw was possible and thus required no divine intervention to occur.

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"Possible" only in the sense that technically absolutely anything "might" happen (from our limited point of view), but is never-the-less so unlikely that we would normally attribute it to a deity etc, if it actually "did" happen. Indeed your use of italics seems to imply agreement thus rather undermining your: "nothing of the sort". Actually by saying something like the universe is trying to "repair itself" the writers are effectively endorsing Pantheism.

"Possible" only in the sense that technically absolutely anything "might" happen (from our limited point of view), but is never-the-less so unlikely that we would normally attribute it to a deity etc, if it actually "did" happen.

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No, we would normally attribute it to something called "coincidence". No deity required.

If you have been following the thread you will know I was actually responding to Temis the Friendly Ghost and she did say that.

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The point is, this was not something claimed by the film or the writers.

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A "point" that doesn't need making because nothing I said indicated otherwise. But if you are so concerned, why did you not point that out to Temis the Friendly Ghost yourself?

I will say that your "point" is however misleading because Orci is obviously trying belatedly and unsuccessfully to make it appear the multiverse somehow makes it almost inevitable that the events of the movie would come about. To quote you quoting him: "Thus, the idea that Kirk and Spock and Bones come together is merely an indication that the probability assigned to such an event is very high in the multiverse." (We are not of course concerned with the multiverse, only with how likely it is in the JJverse).

So from a pedantic point of view he is not saying 100% probability, just very likely. By all means make whatever technical point you can out of that distinction. To me Orci still looks to be mistaken.

No, we would normally attribute it to something called "coincidence". No deity required.

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Only up to a certain point. Once things get too ridiculous many resort to superstitious explanations. The film, as I explained, appears to be no exception, whatever the writers may have intended.

Actually by saying something like the universe is trying to "repair itself" the writers are effectively endorsing Pantheism.

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The quote I posted by Orci contains no endorsement of Pantheism. It speaks of probabilities. It's cast as science rather than religion.

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But that's not how it came across in the film and I believe his quote fails as science anyway. The phrase I referred to comes from the movie (if I remember it correctly) and implies a fantasy explanation of some sort, especially in the absence of anything else.

A "point" that doesn't need making because nothing I said indicated otherwise.

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Well, that's a relief.

UFO said:

I will say that your "point" is however misleading because Orci is obviously trying belatedly and unsuccessfully to make it appear the multiverse somehow makes it almost inevitable that the events of the movie would come about.

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That didn't last long.

UFO said:

So from a pedantic point of view he is not saying 100% probability, just very likely. By all means make whatever technical point you can out of that distinction.

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It's possible you may be misinterpreting what is meant by "very high"; after all, he doesn't give a number.

UFO said:

Once things get too ridiculous many resort to superstitious explanations.

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Good for them.

UFO said:

The film, as I explained, appears to be no exception, whatever the writers may have intended.

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As I explained, if the film depicts something that is possible, there is no need for superstitious explanation. You may see the film as "ridiculous", but you don't speak for everyone. Also, dodging writer intent isn't really going to do anything for your argument.

UFO said:

But that's not how it came across in the film

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Hardly. The film said nothing about "Pantheism". You seem to be projecting an interpretation onto it. What I saw in the film was Spock Prime trying to make something happen because he thought it was a good idea. No magic, fantasy, or superstition required.

Actually it's still in effect because I haven't said Orci stated the probability to be 100%.

It's possible you may be misinterpreting what is meant by "very high"; after all, he doesn't give a number.

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and

As I explained, if the film depicts something that is possible, there is no need for superstitious explanation. You may see the film as "ridiculous", but you don't speak for everyone.

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The funny thing (apart from your redefinition of "very high" to mean "low") is that your quote of Oric is his attempt to make parts of the film look less "ridiculous" (I am not saying the whole thing is implausible of course). So, while there may be a few fans who are willing to overlook almost anything, it appears I speak for the writers! After all, there wouldn't be any point in him saying anything if he thought his alternative "scientific" explanation had so low a probability that he had to resort to fate or mysticism etc. It seems he does, but he appears to believe otherwise.

Hardly. The film said nothing about "Pantheism". You seem to be projecting an interpretation onto it. What I saw in the film was Spock Prime trying to make something happen because he thought it was a good idea. No magic, fantasy, or superstition required.

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We are not talking about Spock Prime's actions. We are talking about the likelihood of all the original crew getting together almost a decade before they did in the prime timeline (and in particular event like the chances of Spock Prime meeting Krik and Scotty on DV) despite significant disruption.

UFO said:

The phrase I referred to comes from the movie

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No, it doesn't.

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Thanks for quoting me out of context. I said "(if I remember it correctly)". It seems I didn't. And that's weird because I must have read it somewhere.

There is a thread here that describes a deleted scene that contains that idea and Memory Alpha states it is still in the novelisation but neither explains why I thought it was in the movie, so perhaps somewhere there is a suggestion that it was?

Anyway, in the above thread there is a quote from the screen play where Spock Prime refers to the crew of the Enterprise:

Perhaps the time stream's way of attempting to mend itself. In both our histories, the same crew found its way onto the same ship in a time of ultimate crisis -- therein lies our advantage.

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Now this isn't canon but it does indicate the writer's intentions at that time (which you seem to value). Ie. It looks for all the world like some form of mysticism, fate, pantheism or whatever. Spock Prime also talks of destiny though that could be part of his smokescreen so he didn't have to go with Kirk and thus prevent Kirk from getting into the captain's chair.

And of course the only way to avoid the relentless feeling that things are only happening because the writers need it to, is to suppose some form of destiny. Unfortunately that just makes the film look like a fantasy. So we know how things look. The only question is did the writers change their minds and try to later paint things in scientific terms?

Having seen the Terminator films and TV series, where those damn machines keep eventually being built even when the company behind them changes (Cyberdyne in T1 and 2, Cyber Systems in T3), when the origin of Skynet changes (a big mainframe, then a internet software program from the US Air Force, then a chess computer merging with something-or-other in the TV series) and the date of the nuclear apocalypse keeps changing but remains a constant event.... yeah, I can see the Enterprise crew uniting in a ton of different timelines.