Because I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new email.Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverse engineering and the outcome is uncertain.

I agree on his arguments. I do not find them strong enough. Maybe lkcl assumed it was about a mali gpu on a pc card. It was not. My question was a general question about getting a broadly known mali gpu reverse engineered. In my email I referenced the https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl because according to lkcl it is as fast as a duo core intel mainboard and only the mali gpu software is not source code.

There is no new arm source code computer for sale. I think one should be provided. People must be able to get one. 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer.

I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one board.You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it?

30k is *not* a small number! 30k is a very large number. If I had 30kpennies in my bank account right now, instead of the 44 presently there,I'd be a happy man right now. I'd have three hundred dollars.

My entire town is 8k people. The county within which it sits is ~42k. Youare talking two thirds of the population of a slightly rural North Carolinacounty.

I hope you're a real good salesman... or that you can and do hire one. Youare talking what amounts to amassing a moderately-sized army in kickstarterterms (I use the word "kickstarter" generically here). That is a (pardonme) f*ckton of enthusiasm to drum up.

If you can get a crowdfund on a used/widely spread (and if lucky stillin production) mali gpu and put the code under gpl you'll have 5 bucksand my voice around the people I know.The problem is always media coverage.You need to take examples on (ugh I have to say it) hype campaigns.

I wish you luck.FreelyBERNARD

Post by r***@Safe-mail.netBecause I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new email.Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverse engineering and the outcome is uncertain.I agree on his arguments. I do not find them strong enough. Maybe lkcl assumed it was about a mali gpu on a pc card. It was not. My question was a general question about getting a broadly known mali gpu reverse engineered. In my email I referenced the https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl because according to lkcl it is as fast as a duo core intel mainboard and only the mali gpu software is not source code.There is no new arm source code computer for sale. I think one should be provided. People must be able to get one. 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer.I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one board.You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it?_______________________________________________http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook

Post by r***@Safe-mail.netBecause I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new email.Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu.Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverseengineering and the outcome is uncertain.I agree on his arguments.

Post by r***@Safe-mail.netBecause I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new email.Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu.Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverseengineering and the outcome is uncertain.I agree on his arguments.

I assume you don not agree.150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an

Th issue with revese engineering the MALI gpu's is not justs about money.ARM ltd. actively Seeks and destroys attempts on a OSS mail driver.So that money needed is not only going to coding but is probably alsoneeded for legel fees and marketing against the smear and laster campaign.http://libv.livejournal.com/

Ho yes I remember that now.The thing is, is that one wants to avoid to be persecuted you have to:-Avoid electronic money (or at least one that doesn't tie your real nametoo it).-Having your name tied to the project it (staying anonymous)-Having people who don't have a lot to loose (if they can stay anonymousthis isn't a big problem).-Having a server that won't reveal the ID of the people participating onthe project (Tor or GNUnet only)There are some projects that exist already on these mesh networks.

The problem will always be money and official crowdfunding systems thatneeds to have IDs (which is kinda normal).

Finding the right minds and right amount of them working on the same thingis a hard equation.You could add me to that team but my skills would be of limited use. Addingsomeone of the same skill set would probably be even less effective.So more money or more people is not the solutions. The right people and theright amount is needed.

Post by mdn-Avoid electronic money (or at least one that doesn't tie your real nametoo it).-Having your name tied to the project it (staying anonymous)-Having people who don't have a lot to loose (if they can stay anonymousthis isn't a big problem).-Having a server that won't reveal the ID of the people participating onthe project (Tor or GNUnet only)There are some projects that exist already on these mesh networks.

Crowdfunding and anonymity DO NOT go together.

I'm not backing a project from some random hacker via bitcoin or WesternUnion, nope not going to happen.

There are enough problems with crowdfunding campaigns that aren'tanonymous, the way I see it.

I'd crowdfund a legitimate (non-anonymous campaign) to (A) raise awarenessfor the need of FOSS graphics drivers, (B) help fund a legal group to makeit easier for hackers and hobbyists to reverse engineer what they havepurchased, or (C) raise funds to help individuals like Luc Verhaegen thathave gotten smeared but want to keep fighting. Or (D) if anyone in amatter of years/decades/whatever is crazy enough to attempt a completelyFOSS GPU core which won't come cheap or easy. Something like Project VGAbut scaled up in complexity and down in size.

But that's about it. Other people's mileage many vary. But being thatWikipedia and other sources aren't even really mentioning all of thelitigation and smearing going on, I'd suggest to start by maybe getting theword out, maybe edit a few wikipedia pages to make that a bit moreapparent. I don't even see it mentioned in the talk pages. This group wasliterally the first time that I've heard of it.

Post by r***@Safe-mail.netI do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one board.You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it?

Look at what happened to Luc Verhaegen. Arm has destroyed his life. Thecompany is hard at work killing any attempt at a libre driver. You willhave a hard time finding people willing to work for this. Also 30k is a lotof people for a kickstarter.

folks, it's very interesting to note this discussion as being very (visually)difficult to read, because normally i reply to pretty much every discussionand i take particular care to do inline posting and to cut unnecessarycontext (as is being done here)... but also, from experience,it would seem that i do quite a bit more than that.

what i *also* tend to do is to tidy up the sentences adding line-breaksas well as carriage-returns that separate out the paragraphs. thishelps the people who reply to be able to not only identify the differentpeople in the conversation but also it helps their mailers to add inthe correct level of additional indentation - the ">"s before eachline.

now, if you *don't* do that, then you end up with an absolute mess:one single ">" per paragraph... but you can't identify it visuallybecause there's *no paragraph breaks*.

ron, it is *almost impossible* to identify what you've written, thus makingit much harder to understand what you want to say, and thus leadingdirectly to the confusion and lack of clarity that you're experiencing.

if you would like your ideas to be easier to understand perhaps youmight consider switching to "plain text only" mode in your email clientand to re-read any online netiquette rules for email lists once again, payingparticular attention to layout and the use of whitespace in replies.

l.

-------- Original Message --------

If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right.

It is difficult to follow your argumentation. You write that you agreeand disagree in the next sentence.

If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right.

It is difficult to follow your argumentation. You write that you agreeand disagree in the next sentence.

Weighing them up against the importance of getting a libre software gpu, I reach the conclusion that the reverse engineering should be done.

Before you plan a difficult crowd funding campaign and involve the FSF, please tell us yourcounter arguments to Lukes reasoning on a technical and ethical level.For example to the following points I am quoting from Lukes email reply to you inthe thread about "firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?":- "take one of the "open gpus" or parts of them and use that."- "the sad fact of reverse-engineering: all that effort, with*no guarantee of success*.... just to get something that's yearsout-of-date."- "well, with the same money it would be possible to make ourown libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3Dgraphics *without* paying anyone a cent."

There have been some remarks about the probability of a successful crowd funding. I mentioned the numbers 50000 people, each paying 5euro. Notice on this email list, people want to pay 5eu, if they get the software in question.It is safe to say more than 10 million people have gnulinux on their computer? A major part of them know about the importance of libre software and a part of them would want to act on it.

I don't know if your numbers are correct but it seems important to me topoint out that only a fraction of all GNU/Linux Users own a device witha mali GPU. Only a part of that group would in principle support such acampaign. Only some of the willing will actually fund the campaign...

Post by r***@Safe-mail.netBecause I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a newemail.Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu.Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during thereverse engineering and the outcome is uncertain.I agree on his arguments.

I assume you do not agree.

Post by r***@Safe-mail.net150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay anextra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer.

The issue with revese engineering the MALI gpu's is not justs aboutmoney. ARM ltd. actively Seeks and destroys attempts on a OSS maildriver.So that money needed is not only going to coding but is probably alsoneeded for legel fees and marketing against the smear and lastercampaign.http://libv.livejournal.com/

I'd do it in a heart beat in spite of the evil people out there if I hadthe skills.

Incidentally, couldn't you do this in an mostly automated fashion?I mean:1. Have computer program send bits to GPU2. Have same program read bits from EDP (or whatever), to determineresult and time spend on task.4. Have another program create a spread sheet for the in-out-time infoand stats.3. Have developer look at these and code.

Finding the right minds and right amount of them working on the samething is a hard equation.You could add me to that team but my skills would be of limited use.Adding someone of the same skill set would probably be even lesseffective.So more money or more people is not the solutions. The right people andthe right amount is needed.

Well, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward.I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hackerboards out there that other people would also be very interested in this.What would I need to know to do this?Quick, point me to the books!No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose, thoughfor free I'd be taking my time...But still, I'd need an education.

Thanks,David

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Post by d***@mail.comWell, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward.I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hackerboards out there that other people would also be very interested in this.What would I need to know to do this?Quick, point me to the books!No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose, thoughfor free I'd be taking my time...But still, I'd need an education.

Post by d***@mail.comWell, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward.I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hackerboards out there that other people would also be very interested inthis. What would I need to know to do this?Quick, point me to the books!No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose,though for free I'd be taking my time...But still, I'd need an education.

Start from the existing code http://limadriver.org/

I understand that I understand very little about this process so pleaseread this with hearty laugh prepared.

Whereas other older people have gone from simple reverse engineeringprojects to more difficult ones I have come into the game late when allthe projects are the most difficult.Let me assume that the GPU is a RISC model and uses 8-bit instructions.Then it would have a total of 255 instructions (the 256th would be allzeros and be a no-op because the wires on the line need a way to tell ifthey have an instruction on them and that is the most power conservativeI can think of).Now let use assume that if the signed bit is set that the GPU receives aninstruction to set an internal option.All that I could probably learn from the lima driver and also some ideaof how the 2D rendering engine works and what it's instructions are.Now the questions come up:1. What are the options for the 3D engine?2. What are the instructions for the 3D engine?3. How do the 2D, 3D, and video (de|en)code engine fit together?

To sum it up, I don't think it's as simple as downloading the code,signing up for the mailing list, and coding. It might be, someone couldhave left full specs laying around waiting to be turned into mock-up codeand then real code; but I doubt it.That's not to say I will not try, but I just don't see this as a veryproductive path.

I suffer from the black box discouragement effect. Someone builds a blackbox, then a bigger black box, then an even larger black box; eventuallyno one knows how it works inside, even the people who designed itunderstand only a relatively small part.

Post by d***@mail.comWell, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward.I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hackerboards out there that other people would also be very interested inthis. What would I need to know to do this?Quick, point me to the books!No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose,though for free I'd be taking my time...But still, I'd need an education.

Start from the existing code http://limadriver.org/

I understand that I understand very little about this process so pleaseread this with hearty laugh prepared.Whereas other older people have gone from simple reverse engineeringprojects to more difficult ones I have come into the game late when allthe projects are the most difficult.Let me assume that the GPU is a RISC model and uses 8-bit instructions.Then it would have a total of 255 instructions (the 256th would be allzeros and be a no-op because the wires on the line need a way to tell ifthey have an instruction on them and that is the most power conservativeI can think of).Now let use assume that if the signed bit is set that the GPU receives aninstruction to set an internal option.All that I could probably learn from the lima driver and also some ideaof how the 2D rendering engine works and what it's instructions are.1. What are the options for the 3D engine?2. What are the instructions for the 3D engine?3. How do the 2D, 3D, and video (de|en)code engine fit together?To sum it up, I don't think it's as simple as downloading the code,signing up for the mailing list, and coding. It might be, someone couldhave left full specs laying around waiting to be turned into mock-up codeand then real code; but I doubt it.That's not to say I will not try, but I just don't see this as a veryproductive path.I suffer from the black box discouragement effect. Someone builds a blackbox, then a bigger black box, then an even larger black box; eventuallyno one knows how it works inside, even the people who designed itunderstand only a relatively small part.

IF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl wouldbe very happy I am sure. But I get the feeling from him that it isnearly impossible to do this.

Not sure why... but yeah... RK3288 with 3d engine would be cool I willadmit that. or an even later more compatible processor.

Still, I think you have an uphill battle for that.

ps, I don't have much reverse engineering experience at all, so what Iam suggesting, could be easier or harder.

I just don't know. xD

Post by David NiklasSincerely,David_______________________________________________http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook

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Post by zapIF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl wouldbe very happy I am sure.

that used to be the case but is no longer true. please read section2.5 of the bill of ethics before proceeding further with this thread:https://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/

ARM's illegal and unethical activity which destroyed luc verhaegen'scareer and reputation - including several counts of slander as well asblackmail of the company funding his reverse-engineering efforts - wasthe last straw.

if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results inpeople buying more ARM products.

if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money(resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions.

any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement ofunethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonif we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results inpeople buying more ARM products.if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money(resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions.any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement ofunethical actions is, logically, itself, unethicaltherefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changesthe reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act.

So someone buying an nvidia card and using nouveau with it is by yourlogic unethical ? Tell that to rms he recommends old nvidia cards :PBesides I fail to see what else apart form more sales could convincearm to open their drivers.

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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonif we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results inpeople buying more ARM products.if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money(resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions.any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement ofunethical actions is, logically, itself, unethicaltherefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changesthe reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act.

So someone buying an nvidia card and using nouveau with it is by yourlogic unethical ? Tell that to rms he recommends old nvidia cards :PBesides I fail to see what else apart form more sales could convincearm to open their drivers._______________________________________________http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonif we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results inpeople buying more ARM products.if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money(resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions.any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement ofunethical actions is, logically, itself, unethicaltherefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changesthe reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act.

So someone buying an nvidia card and using nouveau with it is by yourlogic unethical ?

how did you gain that impression from a logical chain of "ANDed"statements which began with some illegal and unethical behaviour byARM?

i note from the above context that you cut off the absolutelycritical part of the chain of ANDed statements. you specifically cutthe one *right* at the beginning, which was the illegal and unethicalbehaviour that ARM committed against luc verhaegen.

did you not read that part, or were you under the impression that itwas not part of the chain of logical reasoning?

has NVIDIA engaged in similar illegal or unethical practices to thatwhich ARM carried out against luc verhaegen, which we know were andare sanctioned by the CTO of ARM?

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonhas NVIDIA engaged in similar illegal or unethical practices to thatwhich ARM carried out against luc verhaegen, which we know were andare sanctioned by the CTO of ARM?

Sorry I chopped it off to keep the conclusion only. Nvidia switched torequiring signed binary firmware with a blown fuse for any maxwell ornewer card to run effectively blocking the work by the libre driverand delaying the release of the signed binaries to 2 years after thecards are actually released to the market. So they are activelyblocking reverse engineering.

Post by zapIF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl wouldbe very happy I am sure.

that used to be the case but is no longer true. please read sectionhttps://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/ARM's illegal and unethical activity which destroyed luc verhaegen'scareer and reputation - including several counts of slander as well asblackmail of the company funding his reverse-engineering efforts - wasthe last straw.if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results inpeople buying more ARM products.if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money(resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions.any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement ofunethical actions is, logically, itself, unethicaltherefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changesthe reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act.so it's a simple chain of logical reasoning based on ethical principles.l.

Hmm... just out of curiosity, what is your plan then? to make your ownprocessors from lowrisc?its not a bad idea, but I think until that is an option... we should usestill use some form of arm. Unless you know of other options.

Just curious but what other options are there? Also, I think that makesit more reasonable to reverse engineer their products just to piss Armoff. They don't like their products being reverse engineered anyways...so why not do that to annoy them for their unethical acts? Besides itcould make them realize that their evil actions need to be changed.

Also, the developer who was blackmailed may be pleased by this course ofaction.

Its not my favorite idea, but its better than letting mali rununchecked. In my opinion.

Post by zapHmm... just out of curiosity, what is your plan then? to make your ownprocessors from lowrisc?

replying in part to bill here as well: yes. and to use MIAOW forOpenCL and ORSOC GPU for actual rendering. it won't be perfect but itwill be a start.

bill: nvidia are in the difficult position of likely having beenpressurised by governments to lock down what is effectively viewed inmilitary terms as a a weapon (the rest of us just call it a "GPU").if you recall many years ago, iraq i believe it was purchasedthousands of sony PS1s to make a supercomputer.

as there is an ongoing arms race in that regard it is only the latestprocessors which are likely to fall under, for example, U.S. BXPAWeapons-Grade "Munitions" classification. given the fact that it isafter a couple of years that the source code is no longerDRM-restricted, we have a correlation that fits with the ongoingevidence.

now, as long as a replacement (libre) processor is well below the"state of the art" but is otherwise perfectly acceptable formass-volume electronics purposes, it will fall outside of thispotential trap.

Post by zapits not a bad idea, but I think until that is an option... we should usestill use some form of arm.

indeed. it may sound strange but when there is no other option (andby that i mean *exhaustive* analysis finds no other option) i do notmind "crossing the line" into what would traditionally be viewed bysoftware libre purists as "unacceptable territory" *IF* in doing so itis part of a long-term strategy to *REPLACE* the very thing beingleveraged [to make money etc. etc.]

for example: many software libre supporters flatly refuse to even*install* Windows NT... but if i had taken that attitude i would nothave broken the NT Domains protocol, over 20 years ago.

Post by zapJust curious but what other options are there? Also, I think that makesit more reasonable to reverse engineer their products just to piss Armoff. They don't like their products being reverse engineered anyways...so why not do that to annoy them for their unethical acts? Besides itcould make them realize that their evil actions need to be changed.

and remove the one thing which would otherwise teach them a lesson?

i see both perspectives: i just believe that they are sufficientlyarrogant in their power and beliefs that it is unlikely that they willchange their minds. they've been told by their engineers countlesstimes. they've been told by users countless times. they've been toldby businesses who would otherwise buy more of their products countlesstimes.

Post by zapIts not my favorite idea, but its better than letting mali rununchecked. In my opinion.

Post by zapHmm... just out of curiosity, what is your plan then? to make your ownprocessors from lowrisc?

replying in part to bill here as well: yes. and to use MIAOW forOpenCL and ORSOC GPU for actual rendering. it won't be perfect but itwill be a start.bill: nvidia are in the difficult position of likely having beenpressurised by governments to lock down what is effectively viewed inmilitary terms as a a weapon (the rest of us just call it a "GPU").if you recall many years ago, iraq i believe it was purchasedthousands of sony PS1s to make a supercomputer.as there is an ongoing arms race in that regard it is only the latestprocessors which are likely to fall under, for example, U.S. BXPAWeapons-Grade "Munitions" classification. given the fact that it isafter a couple of years that the source code is no longerDRM-restricted, we have a correlation that fits with the ongoingevidence.now, as long as a replacement (libre) processor is well below the"state of the art" but is otherwise perfectly acceptable formass-volume electronics purposes, it will fall outside of thispotential trap.

Please use lowrisc if you do this option, they already are libre. Theirstuff is licensed under gpl3. That should also mean its easier to,load/less risk of idiots trying to but proprietary crap into it and getaway with it like google does. bleh... google is so awful.

Post by zapits not a bad idea, but I think until that is an option... we should usestill use some form of arm.

indeed. it may sound strange but when there is no other option (andby that i mean *exhaustive* analysis finds no other option) i do notmind "crossing the line" into what would traditionally be viewed bysoftware libre purists as "unacceptable territory" *IF* in doing so itis part of a long-term strategy to *REPLACE* the very thing beingleveraged [to make money etc. etc.]for example: many software libre supporters flatly refuse to even*install* Windows NT... but if i had taken that attitude i would nothave broken the NT Domains protocol, over 20 years ago.

Post by zapJust curious but what other options are there? Also, I think that makesit more reasonable to reverse engineer their products just to piss Armoff. They don't like their products being reverse engineered anyways...so why not do that to annoy them for their unethical acts? Besides itcould make them realize that their evil actions need to be changed.

and remove the one thing which would otherwise teach them a lesson?i see both perspectives: i just believe that they are sufficientlyarrogant in their power and beliefs that it is unlikely that they willchange their minds. they've been told by their engineers countlesstimes. they've been told by users countless times. they've been toldby businesses who would otherwise buy more of their products countlesstimes.

Post by zapTell me what you think of lowrisc when you get a chance. I mean as abase for your processors. heh.

i feel that the lowrisc team fit better with the ethics of what iwould like to see be achieved (note deliberate use of third person,i.e. that i am not personally tying a personal egoistic agenda to orcorrelation with the desire to see success).

i noted in particular that the lowrisc team has set up as a CIC.that's a big plus.

technically i am particularly impressed with the concept of using a32-bit RISCV for GPIO, which they call "minion cores". bitbangingisn't really bitbanging any more if there's an entire CPU dedicated toit. the advantage of their approach is that you no longer requirecomplex multiplexing hardware on the GPIO (as is normally done, withdedicated hardware blocks for each I/O function). you simply... loada different program into the minioncore and the pins which e.g. werepreviously I2C are now UART. orsome-other-future-as-yet-unspecified-or-unforseen-I/O-interface.upgrading to the latest version of SDMMC is therefore dead easy: justwrite a new program for the minion core.

Post by zapTell me what you think of lowrisc when you get a chance. I mean as abase for your processors. heh.

i feel that the lowrisc team fit better with the ethics of what iwould like to see be achieved (note deliberate use of third person,i.e. that i am not personally tying a personal egoistic agenda to orcorrelation with the desire to see success).i noted in particular that the lowrisc team has set up as a CIC.that's a big plus.technically i am particularly impressed with the concept of using a32-bit RISCV for GPIO, which they call "minion cores". bitbangingisn't really bitbanging any more if there's an entire CPU dedicated toit. the advantage of their approach is that you no longer requirecomplex multiplexing hardware on the GPIO (as is normally done, withdedicated hardware blocks for each I/O function). you simply... loada different program into the minioncore and the pins which e.g. werepreviously I2C are now UART. orsome-other-future-as-yet-unspecified-or-unforseen-I/O-interface.upgrading to the latest version of SDMMC is therefore dead easy: justwrite a new program for the minion core.

According to the lowrisc website though, you can make a 64 bit processorif you so choose though.

http://www.lowrisc.org/about/

I am sure you know this, but I just hope you understand that betterpossibilities exist. ;)

Post by zapAccording to the lowrisc website though, you can make a 64 bit processorif you so choose though.

yes. the minioncores would be on the same bus, not requiring anykind of cache coherency with either each other or with the main 64-bitCPU(s), either doing DMA writes (on their own) or responding to busmemory reads/writes in order appear as memory-addressable peripherals.

Post by zapI am sure you know this, but I just hope you understand that betterpossibilities exist. ;)

you may be misunderstanding that the purpose of 32-bit minion coresis *in addition* to there being one or more main processor(s) whichare SMP or NUMA, which themselves have a bus width (32, 64, 128 bit)that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the minion-coresbeing 32-bit.

i get the general impression that they're quite happy to focus ondevelopment as opposed to raising funds to create an actual processor.each task requires different skills, time and effort. if the teamfocussed on crowdfunding that would be a serious distraction fromtheir development efforts.

this therefore is an opportunity to create a crowd-funded processorwhich utilises their expertise. the one main thing which i couldreally do with is a DDR or other high-speed memory interface that isproven... and compatible with the GPL.

Post by zapAccording to the lowrisc website though, you can make a 64 bit processorif you so choose though.

yes. the minioncores would be on the same bus, not requiring anykind of cache coherency with either each other or with the main 64-bitCPU(s), either doing DMA writes (on their own) or responding to busmemory reads/writes in order appear as memory-addressable peripherals.

Post by zapI am sure you know this, but I just hope you understand that betterpossibilities exist. ;)

you may be misunderstanding that the purpose of 32-bit minion coresis *in addition* to there being one or more main processor(s) whichare SMP or NUMA, which themselves have a bus width (32, 64, 128 bit)that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the minion-coresbeing 32-bit.

i get the general impression that they're quite happy to focus ondevelopment as opposed to raising funds to create an actual processor.each task requires different skills, time and effort. if the teamfocussed on crowdfunding that would be a serious distraction fromtheir development efforts.this therefore is an opportunity to create a crowd-funded processorwhich utilises their expertise. the one main thing which i couldreally do with is a DDR or other high-speed memory interface that isproven... and compatible with the GPL.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonindeed. it may sound strange but when there is no other option (andby that i mean *exhaustive* analysis finds no other option) i do notmind "crossing the line" into what would traditionally be viewed bysoftware libre purists as "unacceptable territory" *IF* in doing so itis part of a long-term strategy to *REPLACE* the very thing beingleveraged [to make money etc. etc.]

Richard Stallman (whose objection to non-free software should require noexplanation) concurs, he has long said that installing and running non-freesoftware is okay for the purpose of making a free replacement (seehttps://www.gnu.org/philosophy/is-ever-good-use-nonfree-program.html forhis essay on this which includes a description of the limits of thismethodology and rationale). Relatedly, he also has told Universityaudiences that they should have reverse engineering courses (seehttps://audio-video.gnu.org/ for recordings of his many speeches). I agreewith him on both points for the same reasons.

After all, once the reverse engineering is complete the free replacementshould suffice to do the practical jobs and then the non-free,user-subjugating components should be removed in favor of using the freereplacement.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonfor example: many software libre supporters flatly refuse to even*install* Windows NT... but if i had taken that attitude i would nothave broken the NT Domains protocol, over 20 years ago.

Post by zapIF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikclwould be very happy I am sure.

that used to be the case but is no longer true. please read sectionhttps://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/ARM's illegal and unethical activity which destroyed luc verhaegen'scareer and reputation - including several counts of slander as well asblackmail of the company funding his reverse-engineering efforts - wasthe last straw.

Well I am kinda stuck with two Mali-GPUs, both I bought under theimpression that the code is open-source if in FLOSS and I would imaginethat there are others in this situation.

Actually, I read on wikipedia what Linux's support for Mali is and whatthe firefly and CHIP webpages described their product as (e.g.proprietary vs. opensource), and thus I seem to have been fooled, twice.Surly others will come to the same conclusions unless they dig into thisML, or the Linux kernel archives, or stumble on Luc's page?

Which will happen anyways due to ignorance. I try to stay up on whatcompanies are nice and which are not plus the general goings on in theopensource community (I know about Nvidia and AMD/Radeon), and this entireproblem with Mali blindsided me.This is not a problem that is as well publicized as say, Linux givingNvidia the F word.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonany action which is taken that results in support or endorsement ofunethical actions is, logically, itself, unethicaltherefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changesthe reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act.so it's a simple chain of logical reasoning based on ethicalprinciples.l.

Unless you're trying to be merciful to those who are less fortunate.Look at those who buy prisoners from ISIS or any other violent group.Or, how about ransomware?Do we just tell people "Next time don't use windowz"?It's a tough choice, I agree Luke, but if I succeed you can be certainthat I, like Luc, will pay dearly for my good intentions. Then at leastLuc will gain a friend as I dwell in a state of solidarity with him, andhis actions will not go to waste.

The reason I would really be interested in the Mali GPU driver is notbecause of the need for a basic driver, nor for the sake of games(though they do have an appeal), but because of the Opencl support whichI'd really like to play with (My desktop card is an AMD and their Openclsupport is non-functional at this time in my system for whatever reasonin spite of my using the latest kernel and Mesa library).

Someone should suggest Luc to open a monthly patreon-styled donationpage for working on lima.

If ARM is still as openly hostile as they appear to be towards reverseengineering of their GPU designs, I don't think that pursuing limadevelopment is a very good option. I suspect that if development of thedriver resumes, they will probably continue their horrible crusade againstLuc and I don't want to see that happen to anybody.

I think that if we are really trying to play the long game here, then thatmoney would be better spent working towards the development of anopen GPU design that we can can use in future risc-v SOCs. Perhapsanother option that might be more amenable and rewarding for Luc.Would be to open a monthly patron-styled donation page not to developlima drivers, but instead to work together with people like Jeff Bush(the main guy developming the Nyuzi GPGPU:https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor ). To me (and I haven'tread into it much) it seems like, the focus thus far for the Nyuzi projectis only on developing the GPGPU and not so much looking at it fromthe point of view of, how would we write a Linux driver for this device.I think if we focused some money on Luc (driver developer) and theNyuzi (hardware developer) developers, then they might be more inspiredto focus their efforts on producing a quality GPGPU and supporting drivers.

Honestly, I think that working together with people who are openlydeveloping a GPU design and who would probably be quite welcomingof assistance from Luc would be a much better situation for him than ifhe went back to trying to working on the lima driver. Perhaps a companylike si-five ( https://www.sifive.com/ ) or the risc-v organization mighteven consider trying to sponsor a collaboration like this as having a goodopen GPU implementation would certainly be a boon to them in the future.

Post by Mike LeimonHonestly, I think that working together with people who are openlydeveloping a GPU design and who would probably be quite welcomingof assistance from Luc would be a much better situation for him than ifhe went back to trying to working on the lima driver. Perhaps a companylike si-five ( https://www.sifive.com/ ) or the risc-v organization mighteven consider trying to sponsor a collaboration like this as having a goodopen GPU implementation would certainly be a boon to them in the future.Anyhow, that is my two cents.

That is a really good idea and luke had mentioned it multiple times inthe past but keep in mind that gpus are an extreme patent minefieldthese days. Heck, intel can't solve some problems like memorycompression on their gpus. But maybe someone should propose this tosifive or the risc v foundation. Something like a Berkeley sponsoredprogram would be really interesting.

Post by Mike LeimonHonestly, I think that working together with people who are openlydeveloping a GPU design and who would probably be quite welcomingof assistance from Luc would be a much better situation for him than ifhe went back to trying to working on the lima driver. Perhaps a companylike si-five ( https://www.sifive.com/ ) or the risc-v organization mighteven consider trying to sponsor a collaboration like this as having a goodopen GPU implementation would certainly be a boon to them in the future.Anyhow, that is my two cents.

That is a really good idea and luke had mentioned it multiple times inthe past but keep in mind that gpus are an extreme patent minefieldthese days. Heck, intel can't solve some problems like memorycompression on their gpus. But maybe someone should propose this tosifive or the risc v foundation. Something like a Berkeley sponsoredprogram would be really interesting.

Please excuse my ignorance in such matters but would it be possible touse a RISC-V or FPGA chip as an interim eGPU until such time that a morespecialised chip can be developed and released?

I appreciate that RISC-V/FPGA chips are not likely to be well-suited to the taskof GPU processing but perhaps they would be better than no GPU at all.

Once a specialised libre GPU has been developed, the RISC-V / FPGA chipscould be repurposed as a CPU for other projects/computers/laptops/etc. and,hence, ensuring that they don't go to waste.

Post by BlueyPlease excuse my ignorance in such matters but would it be possible touse a RISC-V or FPGA chip as an interim eGPU until such time that a morespecialised chip can be developed and released?

on its own (as-is), no. however with certain very very specific andin some cases specialised SIMD instructions a reasonable approximationcan be had. these operations are:

this latter turns out to be "good enough" for the majority of 3Doperations, where the accuracy on screens which only *have* 1920pixels (11 bits being sufficient) division calculations beyond 12-14bits is completely and utterly redundant... *under certaincircumstances*.

the point being that a divide operation which only requires 12-14 bitsof accuracy may complete in half the time, thus dramatically saving onCPU cycles.

Post by BlueyI appreciate that RISC-V/FPGA chips are not likely to be well-suited to the taskof GPU processing but perhaps they would be better than no GPU at all.

not "and be power-efficient at the same time"

Post by BlueyOnce a specialised libre GPU has been developed, the RISC-V / FPGA chipscould be repurposed as a CPU for other projects/computers/laptops/etc. and,hence, ensuring that they don't go to waste.

this was the reasoning behind ICubeCorp's "UPU" - Unified ProcessingUnit - which unfortunately they kept proprietary. i tried to helpthem to understand the need to release the full boot initialisationsource code and to comply with the GPL but they did not follow up.

Post by Mike LeimonIf ARM is still as openly hostile as they appear to be towards reverseengineering of their GPU designs, I don't think that pursuing limadevelopment is a very good option. I suspect that if development of thedriver resumes, they will probably continue their horrible crusade againstLuc and I don't want to see that happen to anybody.

well forewarned is forearmed. and it's quite easy, whenreverse-engineering, to find security flaws. for every unethicalaction that ARM takes it would be really easy to release anotherzero-day exploit with full source code and a CVE report.

pretty soon they'd get the message.

Post by Mike LeimonI think that if we are really trying to play the long game here, then thatmoney would be better spent working towards the development of anopen GPU design that we can can use in future risc-v SOCs.