letsgobobby wrote:On the other hand, I don't ask the motel's permission to recharge my phone, iPad, and laptop. And my wife uses her own jet powered hair dryer without permission, too.

We did all that too, and turned the refrigerator on so we'd have some ice in the morning since the rural motel didn't have an ice machine. And I prefer "proactive using" to "stealing" as I gave them $50 for a night's lodging and they didn't have a sign on the outlet saying "Don't use this outlet for RVs/PHEVs".

We did come up with a new travel rule after staying in that dump: Always drive to the end of small towns before choosing a motel as there may be one that's been remodeled since the 1950's.

Yes, Bigfoot, they should have had a sign that said please don't steal from us.

There's a difference between the incidental use of electricity on premises specifically meant for such activity. and fueling your vehicle with it.

In fairness to the EV drivers, they really don't have a choice if they get stranded. I understand there's not always someone around to ask for permission. It's easier for them just to ask for forgiveness, and admit they aren't smart enough to drive a vehicle that requires planning and forethought. This is a joke, kind of.

Let's not get the thread shut down for wandering off topic. But for EV owners, including the Tesla, charging is an important issue.

I do feel sorry for the EV owners in Denver that went to their charging stations in the parking garage, only to find the spaces taken by a fleet of Ford Fusions, which the dealer wanted charged for a product launch event. Apparently the dealer had appropriately reserved the spaces. EV owners don't appreciate PHEV owners that hog space. We have to learn proper charging protocols.

Offshore wrote:Does anyone have any information, either good or bad on the vehicle?

I read Broder's scathing review of his test drive in the New York Times, of which you are probably aware. Apparently it ticked off a vicious, accusatory response by Tesla's CEO and a long debate in the media, which I didn't follow since I am not very interested in the Tesla S, other than as a phenomenon. If you haven't followed any of this, you might want to google it...I did, and there are a huge number of hits.

Offshore wrote:Does anyone have any information, either good or bad on the vehicle?

I read Broder's scathing review of his test drive in the New York Times, of which you are probably aware. Apparently it ticked off a vicious, accusatory response by Tesla's CEO and a long debate in the media, which I didn't follow since I am not very interested in the Tesla S, other than as a phenomenon. If you haven't followed any of this, you might want to google it...I did, and there are a huge number of hits.

He got that response from Tesla because he blatantly lied on some parts of the review and engineered some parts of his test drive specifically so that the car would fail.

What he didn't take into account was that the car's systems recorded everything he did, so Tesla could tell, for example, that he drove around the parking lot in circles to make the car run out of battery.

Frugal Al wrote:Yes, Bigfoot, they should have had a sign that said please don't steal from us.

I've stayed in a motel recently, and am somewhat interested in a BMW i3, so I was curious to see the impact of stealing a "full tank" of electricity. The answer was £2/£77 = 2.6% of the daily room price. (However there weren't actually any sockets near the cars, so this is doubly hypothetical.)

I suspect that if they do cater for electric cars, they will need to charge, not so much for the electricity as to cover the capital cost of setting up some sockets.

cjking wrote:I've stayed in a motel recently, and am somewhat interested in a BMW i3, so I was curious to see the impact of stealing a "full tank" of electricity. The answer was £2/£77 = 2.6% of the daily room price. (However there weren't actually any sockets near the cars, so this is doubly hypothetical.)

I suspect that if they do cater for electric cars, they will need to charge, not so much for the electricity as to cover the capital cost of setting up some sockets.

Yes, 110v outlets in standards locations will be inadequate and a hazard in meeting any demand from EV travelers, so charging posts will be needed which will be a significant investment. It costs about $0.75 to recharge my Energi at $0.11kWh.

UPDATE: My wife saw this picture and we started talking about it and she informs me she did see the clerk when she made a late trip out to the car and asked about having plugged in and the clerk said something like "Sure, I couldn't care less.". She claims she told me but I can find the memory. BTW, one other motel we stayed at gave us permission but we couldn't find an outlet anywhere near our room.

To protect my charger from theft this lock was required which is another deterrent to use of 110v outlets.

Last edited by BigFoot48 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jdb wrote:You are correct. I do not drive the Model S much on weekends and am out of town several business days each month so do not average 75 miles per day more than 15 or so days each month. Cannot speak to California rates since am several thousand miles from there but best I can figure out do not pay more than around 11.5c/kwh at peak usage times. So think my admittedly seat of the pants monthly cost calculations in ballpark. Have not done exact calculations since not easy with electrical rates and meters but assuredly much cheaper than gasoline.

Assuming you are paying about 10 cents/kWh which is the national average, your 28.5 kWh for every 75 mile day costs $2.85 per day. This is a very low 3.8 cents/mile for fuel. The most fuel efficient gasoline car, the Prius, would cost at least twice that per mile.

jdb wrote:You are correct. I do not drive the Model S much on weekends and am out of town several business days each month so do not average 75 miles per day more than 15 or so days each month. Cannot speak to California rates since am several thousand miles from there but best I can figure out do not pay more than around 11.5c/kwh at peak usage times. So think my admittedly seat of the pants monthly cost calculations in ballpark. Have not done exact calculations since not easy with electrical rates and meters but assuredly much cheaper than gasoline.

Assuming you are paying about 10 cents/kWh which is the national average, your 28.5 kWh for every 75 mile day costs $2.85 per day. This is a very low 3.8 cents/mile for fuel. The most fuel efficient gasoline car, the Prius, would cost at least twice that per mile.

Very interesting question. Having driven a Tesla Model S for more than 9,000 miles in past 8 months I can honestly say that I am not sure exactly what it cost for electricity. Ever look at your monthly electrical bill and tried to figure out how they got to your invoice amount? I suspect they purposely obfuscate. Asking an owner of an all electric car to specify their monthly electric cost is like asking someone what their washer and dryer cost to operate each month. Since subsumed within household electrical bill very difficult. I think there are three solutions. Put a submeter at the outlet where the appliance (car) is plugged in. Get an electrical engineer to do the math computation based on Kwh used each day by appliance (car) and time of usage by utility Kwh cost. Or unplug the appliance (car) for a month and see the difference in monthly electrical cost. None of those really work for me. I guesstimate less than $40 per month for electricity compared to about $200 for gasoline for equivalent driving. But only a seat of the pants estimate. By the way, enjoying the discussions on this thread. As an early adopter (who though not a car guy loves driving the Model S and looking forward to delivery of Model X in 2015) interested to see diversity of opinions.

Last edited by jdb on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jdb wrote:You are correct. I do not drive the Model S much on weekends and am out of town several business days each month so do not average 75 miles per day more than 15 or so days each month. Cannot speak to California rates since am several thousand miles from there but best I can figure out do not pay more than around 11.5c/kwh at peak usage times. So think my admittedly seat of the pants monthly cost calculations in ballpark. Have not done exact calculations since not easy with electrical rates and meters but assuredly much cheaper than gasoline.

Assuming you are paying about 10 cents/kWh which is the national average, your 28.5 kWh for every 75 mile day costs $2.85 per day. This is a very low 3.8 cents/mile for fuel. The most fuel efficient gasoline car, the Prius, would cost at least twice that per mile.

But the Prius would cost 1/4-1/2 what a Tesla would cost to buy. That's a lot of gasoline. From an economic model the comparison is silly. Even for a guzzler that gets a pathetic 20 mpg at a whopping $4/gallon, the fuel costs are only $2000 per 10,000 miles or $20,000 per 100,000 miles. If you are comparing the much more efficient Prius, it would likely take well longer than the lifetime of the car- possible multiple lifetimes- to recoup the difference in purchase price via fuel efficiency- and that does not take into account cost of replacement batteries etc. One who spends $50-100K+ on a car may have environmental concerns, but is not concerned about trivial savings due to fuel prices.

protagonist wrote:But the Prius would cost 1/4-1/2 what a Tesla would cost to buy. That's a lot of gasoline. From an economic model the comparison is silly. Even for a guzzler that gets a pathetic 20 mpg at a whopping $4/gallon, the fuel costs are only $2000 per 10,000 miles or $20,000 per 100,000 miles. If you are comparing the much more efficient Prius, it would likely take well longer than the lifetime of the car- possible multiple lifetimes- to recoup the difference in purchase price via fuel efficiency- and that does not take into account cost of replacement batteries etc. One who spends $50-100K+ on a car may have environmental concerns, but is not concerned about trivial savings due to fuel prices.

I had specifically stated in my post that the cost I calculated was specifically for fuel only. I chose the Prius comparison because it's the most efficient ICE vehicle.

But a Prius is not "much more efficient" than a Tesla by any means.Electric engines are 90% efficient, whereas internal combustion engines are only about 35% efficient, and that includes Prius.http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

Gasoline is much more energy dense than batteries, however. Battery improvements are needed in terms of energy density and price.

Maybe you meant that a Prius has a lower total cost of ownership than the Tesla, which is certainly true. So does a Hyundai Accent.

But if you are going to compare TCO, then you should use a comparable ICE vehicle, ie. a luxury ICE sedan.I have no idea what those would be or cost as I have never been in the market for one.

jdb wrote:Very interesting question. Having driven a Tesla Model S for more than 9,000 miles in past 8 months I can honestly say that I am not sure exactly what it cost for electricity. Ever look at your monthly electrical bill and tried to figure out how they got to your invoice amount? I suspect they purposely obfuscate. Asking an owner of an all electric car to specify their monthly electric cost is like asking someone what their washer and dryer cost to operate each month. Since subsumed within household electrical bill very difficult. I think there are three solutions. Put a submeter at the outlet where the appliance (car) is plugged in. Get an electrical engineer to do the math computation based on Kwh used each day by appliance (car) and time of usage by utility Kwh cost. Or unplug the appliance (car) for a month and see the difference in monthly electrical cost. None of those really work for me. I guesstimate less than $40 per month for electricity compared to about $200 for gasoline for equivalent driving. But only a seat of the pants estimate. By the way, enjoying the discussions on this thread. As an early adopter (who though not a car guy loves driving the Model S and looking forward to delivery of Model X in 2015) interested to see diversity of opinions.

Doesn't Tesla have any kind of telematics ? My Nissan Leaf does. The Volt does too. This allows drivers to see exactly how much energy is consumed.It is reported for each trip and also per month and per year in Nissan's carwings web site.This shows the consumption. From there, you can estimate how much was recharged. On a Leaf with a level 2 charger, there is a 15% loss, so you would divide the monthly kWh by 0.85 to find your monthly consumption. If the vehicle sits for a while though, there will be additional discharge.Maybe Tesla tracks the charges too and not just the consumption ?

As for finding out the cost on your electric bill, it can sure be complicated with PG&E with a time-of-use plan using 3 time periods and 5 different pricing tiers.The easiest way is to simply divide your monthly electric bill by the kWh consumed. This gets you your average cost per kWh. It may underestimate the cost of charging if you are in high tiers, as marginal costs are higher. Or it may underestimate it too if you are charging during off-peak time periods with lower rates. But this is the simplest way.

From there, just multiply the monthly consumption kWh from your car by the average cost per kWh from your utility bill, and you will get the monthly cost.Both numbers can vary significantly from month to month.

Jfet wrote:This thread is kind of funny. People who are spending $80,000 on a car that uses a $20,000 battery are arguing over if it costs $1 a day for electricity or $1.20.

Most Tesla S owners are in California, where electricity is very expensive, and you can be sure that even people who spend that much on a car are calculating the charging costs. On a PG&E E-6 time of use plan, during peak hours in the summer time, you can pay over 50 cents/kWh, which could makes the fuel cost per mile as expensive as for a Hummer.I can tell you on our employee EV driver mailing list, there are several Tesla owners, and they all care about their electricity cost. Most Tesla owners in California are putting solar panels to offset the otherwise very painful electric bill increases. I don't own a Tesla but a Leaf, and I already had 28 solar panels for my mansion.I added 12 more solar panels when I got my Leaf.

jdb wrote:Very interesting question. Having driven a Tesla Model S for more than 9,000 miles in past 8 months I can honestly say that I am not sure exactly what it cost for electricity. Ever look at your monthly electrical bill and tried to figure out how they got to your invoice amount? I suspect they purposely obfuscate. Asking an owner of an all electric car to specify their monthly electric cost is like asking someone what their washer and dryer cost to operate each month. Since subsumed within household electrical bill very difficult. I think there are three solutions. Put a submeter at the outlet where the appliance (car) is plugged in. Get an electrical engineer to do the math computation based on Kwh used each day by appliance (car) and time of usage by utility Kwh cost. Or unplug the appliance (car) for a month and see the difference in monthly electrical cost. None of those really work for me. I guesstimate less than $40 per month for electricity compared to about $200 for gasoline for equivalent driving. But only a seat of the pants estimate. By the way, enjoying the discussions on this thread. As an early adopter (who though not a car guy loves driving the Model S and looking forward to delivery of Model X in 2015) interested to see diversity of opinions.

Doesn't Tesla have any kind of telematics ? My Nissan Leaf does. The Volt does too. This allows drivers to see exactly how much energy is consumed.It is reported for each trip and also per month and per year in Nissan's carwings web site.This shows the consumption. From there, you can estimate how much was recharged. On a Leaf with a level 2 charger, there is a 15% loss, so you would divide the monthly kWh by 0.85 to find your monthly consumption. If the vehicle sits for a while though, there will be additional discharge.Maybe Tesla tracks the charges too and not just the consumption ?

As for finding out the cost on your electric bill, it can sure be complicated with PG&E with a time-of-use plan using 3 time periods and 5 different pricing tiers.The easiest way is to simply divide your monthly electric bill by the kWh consumed. This gets you your average cost per kWh. It may underestimate the cost of charging if you are in high tiers, as marginal costs are higher. Or it may underestimate it too if you are charging during off-peak time periods with lower rates. But this is the simplest way.

From there, just multiply the monthly consumption kWh from your car by the average cost per kWh from your utility bill, and you will get the monthly cost.Both numbers can vary significantly from month to month.

You are undoubtedly correct. There would be a way to calculate with exactitude the Tesla electrical cost per month using Tesla energy consumption calculations and then applying to monthly electrical bill kwh costs. But with all due respect reminds me a little of Rhett Butler's last words to Scarlett O'Hara when she asked "Where will I go? What will I do?" I know it is much less expensive for me than gasoline but do not need to know exact amount. Maybe someday will do the calculations. [Edit: My electrical utility company, Florida Power & Light, now has website regarding electrical vehicles. It estimates a $35 monthly cost for driving 1,000 miles per month with all electric vehicle, which is consistent with my experience.]

Last edited by jdb on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

Jfet wrote:This thread is kind of funny. People who are spending $80,000 on a car that uses a $20,000 battery are arguing over if it costs $1 a day for electricity or $1.20.

I understand the people who are trying to defend their purchase of this vehicle at all costs. It is not that the Tesla is not the 'right' car it is just not the car for 'right now.'

After seeing and driving the car I have to say it is a fun $40,000 vehicle. Unfortunately it is $85-90,000. At that price it will not compete with a luxury sedan that can be pointed carelessly in any direction without concern about if there is a fueling station somewhere - I just don't want to worry about that. Also many of the luxury sedans in the $60K range are successful because of volume of the leases backed up by the volume of the second hand certified pre-owned sales. I cannot imagine the TeslaS being purchased used due to the looming battery replacement costs and rapid technology shifts rendering it obsolete much faster than a BMW 7 series. What will the used market be?

I am in the market for a luxury sedan at the moment. However it will not be the Tesla S. It is a nice toy, perhaps for diehard early adopters, but I will wait perhaps the next 2-3 models to see if it survives and becomes more mainstream.

Jfet wrote:This thread is kind of funny. People who are spending $80,000 on a car that uses a $20,000 battery are arguing over if it costs $1 a day for electricity or $1.20.

I understand the people who are trying to defend their purchase of this vehicle at all costs. It is not that the Tesla is not the 'right' car it is just not the car for 'right now.'

After seeing and driving the car I have to say it is a fun $40,000 vehicle. Unfortunately it is $85-90,000. At that price it will not compete with a luxury sedan that can be pointed carelessly in any direction without concern about if there is a fueling station somewhere - I just don't want to worry about that. Also many of the luxury sedans in the $60K range are successful because of volume of the leases backed up by the volume of the second hand certified pre-owned sales. I cannot imagine the TeslaS being purchased used due to the looming battery replacement costs and rapid technology shifts rendering it obsolete much faster than a BMW 7 series. What will the used market be?

I am in the market for a luxury sedan at the moment. However it will not be the Tesla S. It is a nice toy, perhaps for diehard early adopters, but I will wait perhaps the next 2-3 models to see if it survives and becomes more mainstream.

Just interestingly - those exact comments were made about the Prius when it was in its early phases, when it was still quite high priced relative to its peers.

Fast forward 7 years, and it's one of the top selling cars in the country, with extremely high resale value. Battery and all.

I know EVs are a different animal, but I thought the Prius might go the route you were describing, and clearly that hasn't happened. If anything, it's going to other way. (Prius was top seller in CA, already)

The big difference with the Prius is A) It is made by a company with a long history of quality and actually makes a profit. B) You can point the Prius in any direction and not worry about a charging station or 1 hour wait.

I think there eventually will be a nice resale market for a used Tesla, just like the market for used Tuckers is kind of hot.

cjking wrote:I've stayed in a motel recently, and am somewhat interested in a BMW i3, so I was curious to see the impact of stealing a "full tank" of electricity. The answer was £2/£77 = 2.6% of the daily room price. (However there weren't actually any sockets near the cars, so this is doubly hypothetical.)

I suspect that if they do cater for electric cars, they will need to charge, not so much for the electricity as to cover the capital cost of setting up some sockets.

Yes, 110v outlets in standards locations will be inadequate and a hazard in meeting any demand from EV travelers, so charging posts will be needed which will be a significant investment. It costs about $0.75 to recharge my Energi at $0.11kWh.

CJKing lives in Europe. Standard European voltage is 220v AC.

There is an argument here. The UK is adopting one phase charging stations, as domestic electric supply is one phase.

However as I understand it, on the Continent they are going for 3 phase, because domestic supply permits that. That's not possible here (one guy from Schneider told me the local authority wouldn't let you put in 3 phase).

There is a risk the UK is going to get stuck with a network of chargers on the wrong technology.

Frugal Al wrote:Yes, Bigfoot, they should have had a sign that said please don't steal from us.

I've stayed in a motel recently, and am somewhat interested in a BMW i3, so I was curious to see the impact of stealing a "full tank" of electricity. The answer was £2/£77 = 2.6% of the daily room price. (However there weren't actually any sockets near the cars, so this is doubly hypothetical.)

I suspect that if they do cater for electric cars, they will need to charge, not so much for the electricity as to cover the capital cost of setting up some sockets.

Note to readers, our electricity price (UK) is c. 15p/ kwhr (unless cjking was charging at a nighttime rate and has a meter that does that-- rare here).

jdb wrote:The Model X with AWD is reputed to have better accelleration than my performance Model S which will probably out accelerate in quarter mile from stop every 911 Porsche other than Turbo version. You need to experience the immediate torque of a Tesla to truly appreciate it.

There is an argument here. The UK is adopting one phase charging stations, as domestic electric supply is one phase.

However as I understand it, on the Continent they are going for 3 phase, because domestic supply permits that. That's not possible here (one guy from Schneider told me the local authority wouldn't let you put in 3 phase).

There is a risk the UK is going to get stuck with a network of chargers on the wrong technology.

For the most part, in the US you can also only get 3 phase for commercial environments.As a result, almost all residential EV chargers are single phase.You were probably talking about commercial public chargers though. In this case, the result is the UK will just have much less powerful/slower public EV chargers.

madbrain wrote:But a Prius is not "much more efficient" than a Tesla by any means.Electric engines are 90% efficient, whereas internal combustion engines are only about 35% efficient, and that includes Prius..

I think the received figure for Internal Combustion Engine efficiency is 28%?

Note that that number does not include the energy cost of getting the oil out of the ground (usually low), pumping it to the nearest port, carrying it around the world, and then refining it (say another 10-30% on top of the actual energy in a barrel of oil). So your actual 'well to wheel' efficiency is probably more like low 20s.

jdb wrote:The Model X with AWD is reputed to have better accelleration than my performance Model S which will probably out accelerate in quarter mile from stop every 911 Porsche other than Turbo version. You need to experience the immediate torque of a Tesla to truly appreciate it.

Seriously?

Remembering how light the Tesla could be, and the torque of electric motors, from 0-30mph and perhaps 0-60mph, that is quite credible.

There's a lot of metal in an ICE you have to get moving, before you can get the whole vehicle moving.

Jfet wrote:B) You can point the Prius in any direction and not worry about a charging station or 1 hour wait.

IMO, this argument is a little tired.The Tesla S has an EPA range of 265 miles. Just how many days a year do you actually drive more than that ? I can tell you that personally, it has been more than one year that I haven't driven that much in one day, and I am not a Tesla owner.Did you watch the Tesla video about the battery replacement that takes less time than filling at the pump ?

BMW is already offering some free rentals of a luxury ICE sedan to their EV owners/lessees for those few times when they are needed. Of course, the BMW EVs have much shorter range.

Tesla obviously can't provide their own cars as rentals, since they only produce EVs. It's not unthinkable that they could provide a similar benefit to their EV owners, but it would be more costly for them to provide it since they would have to rent somebody else's cars.However, I think Tesla is much more focused on improving the range of their EVs by adding more Superchargers and battery swapping stations.

jdb wrote:The Model X with AWD is reputed to have better accelleration than my performance Model S which will probably out accelerate in quarter mile from stop every 911 Porsche other than Turbo version. You need to experience the immediate torque of a Tesla to truly appreciate it.

Seriously?

Latest reports I have seen say 3.9 seconds O-60 for Model S Performance. http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2 ... lectr.aspx. And this is 4 door vehicle easily seating five weighing almost 5K pounds. Of course also has option of two extra rear facing seats for kids in rear hatch area. They would have an exciting ride. Need to drive it to understand. No delay in power or accellleration once depress accellerator. But best thing is not the instant torque it is the wonderful handling with such low center of gravity and tires which grip road. And of course probably safest car ever produced. Looking forward to delivery of Model X in couple years. But I am biased, have owned car since last year.

Last edited by jdb on Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Oh I don't doubt that an EV can accelerate like crazy. 4.1 s is pretty quick to 60.

This discussion makes me laugh. Every time I come home with a new sports car - and they are usually impulse purchases, my wife would think I'm crazy. To her, a car is all about getting from point A to point B safely. But I'm a car nut and for me to even point out the fine tuned suspension or the ferocious exhaust note of my latest ("waste of money") toy would be futile. A simple "I've always wanted this car" will get her to calm down pretty quickly.

To all the Tesla folks, that is a cool car. To all those who think otherwise, well, it's just a car. The owners all seem to love them and that says a lot about an expensive car.

There are always compromises with a vehicle, though. A Camry is great for the daily commute, but ever try to take a nice sharp turn? A Lotus Exige will allow you to take on that same corner like Mario Andretti. But if you try to commute in that car (and I have) you'd feel pretty stupid.

At the end of the day, EV will continue to be refined and developed and hopefully we get to a point where ICE will be a novelty ride that the horse buggy is today.

I'm not so sure about going from 0-60 in 4 seconds without the exhaust screaming. Is the Tesla quiet during hard acceleration? Is it fun not hearing the "engine"? The whole point of a sports car for me is the race to redline and it's unique exhaust note.

tphp99 wrote:Oh I don't doubt that an EV can accelerate like crazy. 4.1 s is pretty quick to 60.

This discussion makes me laugh. Every time I come home with a new sports car - and they are usually impulse purchases, my wife would think I'm crazy. To her, a car is all about getting from point A to point B safely. But I'm a car nut and for me to even point out the fine tuned suspension or the ferocious exhaust note of my latest ("waste of money") toy would be futile. A simple "I've always wanted this car" will get her to calm down pretty quickly.

To all the Tesla folks, that is a cool car. To all those who think otherwise, well, it's just a car. The owners all seem to love them and that says a lot about an expensive car.

There are always compromises with a vehicle, though. A Camry is great for the daily commute, but ever try to take a nice sharp turn? A Lotus Exige will allow you to take on that same corner like Mario Andretti. But if you try to commute in that car (and I have) you'd feel pretty stupid.

At the end of the day, EV will continue to be refined and developed and hopefully we get to a point where ICE will be a novelty ride that the horse buggy is today.

I'm not so sure about going from 0-60 in 4 seconds without the exhaust screaming. Is the Tesla quiet during hard acceleration? Is it fun not hearing the "engine"? The whole point of a sports car for me is the race to redline and it's unique exhaust note.

All good points tphp99. By the way, cannot verify 0-60 speed from personal experience, have enough traffic tickets. Yes, Model S is quiet at all times. No engine. Only time was noisy was time soon after got Model S when decided to pass group of cars on freeway and fully depressed pedal and went 60-90 in less than 3 seconds, my wife was screaming in my ear to slow down. No longer do that.

Last edited by jdb on Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Very curious how the battery swap might work since right now you own your battery right? If I have a 4 year old Tesla with a battery maybe at 80% max capacity compared to new, I would love to be able to go to a swap station and exchange it for a newer one and let some other sucker get stuck with my old one. OTOH, if I just bought a new Tesla, I would be upset to exchange my new battery for the 80% capacity one.

If you didn't know, all lithium based battery technologies lose capacity with age...even if you don't use them.

Jfet wrote:This thread is kind of funny. People who are spending $80,000 on a car that uses a $20,000 battery are arguing over if it costs $1 a day for electricity or $1.20.

I understand the people who are trying to defend their purchase of this vehicle at all costs. It is not that the Tesla is not the 'right' car it is just not the car for 'right now.'

After seeing and driving the car I have to say it is a fun $40,000 vehicle. Unfortunately it is $85-90,000. At that price it will not compete with a luxury sedan that can be pointed carelessly in any direction without concern about if there is a fueling station somewhere - I just don't want to worry about that. Also many of the luxury sedans in the $60K range are successful because of volume of the leases backed up by the volume of the second hand certified pre-owned sales. I cannot imagine the TeslaS being purchased used due to the looming battery replacement costs and rapid technology shifts rendering it obsolete much faster than a BMW 7 series. What will the used market be?

I am in the market for a luxury sedan at the moment. However it will not be the Tesla S. It is a nice toy, perhaps for diehard early adopters, but I will wait perhaps the next 2-3 models to see if it survives and becomes more mainstream.

Just interestingly - those exact comments were made about the Prius when it was in its early phases, when it was still quite high priced relative to its peers.

Fast forward 7 years, and it's one of the top selling cars in the country, with extremely high resale value. Battery and all.

I know EVs are a different animal, but I thought the Prius might go the route you were describing, and clearly that hasn't happened. If anything, it's going to other way. (Prius was top seller in CA, already)

Umm...was the Prius $100,000? Did the Prius depend on largely non-existent superchargers along the highway?

No. Lets see what happens two generations from now. Might be worth it then.

I think the BMW i3 with range extender engine might have the best balance between electric and ICE technology at the moment. With similar electric range to a Leaf, on 99 out of 100 days you will only use electric power, but with no range anxiety because of the petrol backup, and on the exceptional day you won't be stranded. Only downside compared to a conventional car is that on a cross-country journey (where you ignore any electric charging options and decide to just use petrol) you would have to refuel after every hour or so of driving.

I think with that version of the i3, one would only ever recharge at home, and just use petrol when one wanted to go further afield, so no additional electric infrastructure is needed.

Another thing that contemplating (the range-extended version of) the i3 has made me realise is that if/when battery capacity (per unit weight/cost) increases, the logical thing to do would be to reduce the batteries in the i3, reducing weight and cost, not to increase the electric range, which is already adequate.

Valuethinker wrote:I think the received figure for Internal Combustion Engine efficiency is 28%?

Note that that number does not include the energy cost of getting the oil out of the ground (usually low), pumping it to the nearest port, carrying it around the world, and then refining it (say another 10-30% on top of the actual energy in a barrel of oil). So your actual 'well to wheel' efficiency is probably more like low 20s.

And I supposed you're going to tell me that the energy coming out of your wall socket to charge your EV just comes from magic fairies that live in your garage wall that produce & delivery electricity from thin air with zero loss.

Jfet wrote:Very curious how the battery swap might work since right now you own your battery right? If I have a 4 year old Tesla with a battery maybe at 80% max capacity compared to new, I would love to be able to go to a swap station and exchange it for a newer one and let some other sucker get stuck with my old one. OTOH, if I just bought a new Tesla, I would be upset to exchange my new battery for the 80% capacity one.

If you didn't know, all lithium based battery technologies lose capacity with age...even if you don't use them.

Dude - you're not drinking enough of the Kool-Aid. Please drink some more and all of those minor details will work themselves out. No worries.

Jfet wrote:Very curious how the battery swap might work since right now you own your battery right? If I have a 4 year old Tesla with a battery maybe at 80% max capacity compared to new, I would love to be able to go to a swap station and exchange it for a newer one and let some other sucker get stuck with my old one. OTOH, if I just bought a new Tesla, I would be upset to exchange my new battery for the 80% capacity one.

If you didn't know, all lithium based battery technologies lose capacity with age...even if you don't use them.

Dude - you're not drinking enough of the Kool-Aid. Please drink some more and all of those minor details will work themselves out. No worries.

Not sure what your comment adds to the discussion. Obviously there are a ton of details to work out. It's a brand new technology.

Anyway, I will actually attempt to add to the discussion. At least in early stages, the battery swap was supposed to give you a fully charged, quality-controlled battery. Not sure what the maximum age or minimum quality would be in practice. At the station, you'd be charged the equivalent value of 15 gallons of gas, based on local market rates. You'd then have a period of time where you could fetch your old battery next time you're in the area, or they would bill you for the new battery. That charge would be based on the differential in age between the new and the old battery. No details on how they'll calculate that, but I'm imagining it will be based on the replacement cost ($10k?) prorated over a 10 year warranty period. It will be interesting to see how many people would take the $1000 or more/year cost of keeping a fresh battery installed, vs letting the battery die out over time. I think a lot of people would hesitate to do a permanent swap, knowing they could get a new battery under warranty if something happened within the 10 year warranty people.

An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. -- GK Chesterton

Ok, that answers some of the battery swap dilemma. I think the battery replacement cost is quite a bit more than 10K though? I read somewhere (maybe in this thread) that if you choose to buy a "battery policy" for $600 a year, then a replacement battery is discounted to $12,000. I may have those numbers totally wrong though.

All this doesn't really matter for relatively rich people, the initial Tesla S and X target audience. Maybe a few extra people who were not rich until they bought Tesla stock early

It just doesn't fit the Buffett description of a good investment for me. I don't understand it and I don't see the moat.

ryuns wrote:Not sure what your comment adds to the discussion. Obviously there are a ton of details to work out. It's a brand new technology.

Anyway, I will actually attempt to add to the discussion. At least in early stages, the battery swap was supposed to give you a fully charged, quality-controlled battery. Not sure what the maximum age or minimum quality would be in practice. At the station, you'd be charged the equivalent value of 15 gallons of gas, based on local market rates. You'd then have a period of time where you could fetch your old battery next time you're in the area, or they would bill you for the new battery. That charge would be based on the differential in age between the new and the old battery. No details on how they'll calculate that, but I'm imagining it will be based on the replacement cost ($10k?) prorated over a 10 year warranty period. It will be interesting to see how many people would take the $1000 or more/year cost of keeping a fresh battery installed, vs letting the battery die out over time. I think a lot of people would hesitate to do a permanent swap, knowing they could get a new battery under warranty if something happened within the 10 year warranty people.

Actually, my previous post cut right to the point. Most of the pro-Tesla fanatics are very eager to profess the wonders & magic of this Tesla EV, but then dismiss any questioning of the practicality, reality, or details of what's being said. Just from your post alone:

- Elon Musk posted a 7 minute commercial touting his Model S "fast battery swap" back in June. Yet, 2 months later, there's still no details available on exactly how, what the cost will be or when it'll be available. All of the questions Jfet asked are very valid, practical concerns for a potential buyer. Why publish a commercial promoting something without either having those details worked out beforehand, or at least, published shortly thereafter? (I could speculate why, but I won't.)

- "At the station" -- Where exactly are these stations you speak of again? By station, are you referring to the 18 supercharger sites located in only 8 states today? And what happens if, god forbid, you need to actually drive somewhere else than the NYC, Chicago, California, Orlando, Austin, and Seattle areas?

- And you refer to the tracking & handling of a $12k+ battery like I'd talk about the $20 propane tank under my barbeque. Maybe if you're a dot-com multimillionaire living a posh Malibu lifestyle, then fine, maybe that analogy still holds -- and $12k is chump change. But I don't think that's the case for most in the broad market. Or better stated:

Jfet wrote:This thread is kind of funny. People who are spending $80,000 on a car that uses a $20,000 battery are arguing over if it costs $1 a day for electricity or $1.20.

killjoy2012 wrote:- Elon Musk posted a 7 minute commercial touting his Model S "fast battery swap" back in June. Yet, 2 months later, there's still no details available on exactly how, what the cost will be or when it'll be available. All of the questions Jfet asked are very valid, practical concerns for a potential buyer. Why publish a commercial promoting something without either having those details worked out beforehand, or at least, published shortly thereafter? (I could speculate why, but I won't.)

Yes, this is not unusual for new technologies and happens in all industries. Everything does not happen overnight.

- "At the station" -- Where exactly are these stations you speak of again? By station, are you referring to the 18 supercharger sites located in only 8 states today? And what happens if, god forbid, you need to actually drive somewhere else than the NYC, Chicago, California, Orlando and Seattle areas?

How many years did it take for the current network of gas stations to get deployed ? This is a serious question.

Note that the Tesla S still has means of charging at many other places, just not as fast as Superchargers allow.Drivers can already use the slower level 2 charging infrastructure which is much larger. And of course, the much slower 120V outlets.It isn't like the Tesla S can't be charged in other areas, they just can't be charged as quickly.There are also many more Chademo DC fast chargers (hundreds nationwide, as opposed to dozens) used by the Nissan Leaf, for which Tesla is reportedly making an adapter.

- And you refer to the tracking & handling of a $12k+ battery like I'd talk about the $20 propane tank under my barbeque. Maybe if you're a dot-com multimillionaire living a posh Malibu lifestyle, then fine, maybe that analogy still holds -- and $12k is chump change. But I don't think that's the case for most in the broad market. Or better stated:

Clearly you are not the target market. It is usually costly to be an early adopter of new technology. Many who can't afford a Tesla S (or, like me, who can, but would never spend that much on a car) are watching these developments with a lot of interest. Battery technology will certainly need to improve and go down in price.Current estimates of EV battery prices are between $300 - $800 per kWh. For a base model S with 60 kWh battery, this would mean a brand new one costs between $18k - $48k.The Model S 60 kWh retails for $70k . I would guess the battery accounts for at least half of the car cost, currently. Obviously Tesla won't say.

Jfet wrote:This thread is kind of funny. People who are spending $80,000 on a car that uses a $20,000 battery are arguing over if it costs $1 a day for electricity or $1.20.

This has already been addressed, so why repeat it ? The highest concentration of Tesla S in the world is in the SF bay area, which has some of the most expensive electricity in the world. Electricity costs are a concern, even for many Tesla drivers. Tesla S costs far more than $1.2 a day in electricity to operate in the bay area.

Most of them fail, but we always learn something. I think the Tesla is in this category, although I wish it well. The infrastructure is just not there.

For now it is a trendy and expensive toy. Perhaps in two generations if it is still here and there are superchargers at every gas pump, and a viable resale market, but just not the case in the foreseeable future.

Most of them fail, but we always learn something. I think the Tesla is in this category, although I wish it well. The infrastructure is just not there.

I think you are wrong about the direction Tesla and EVs are going in general.The Leaf, another EV, with 1/4 of the battery capacity of the Tesla, is now in the top 10 best selling cars in the San Francisco Bay Area according to Nissan.

Yes, the public charging infrastructure needs improvements, but it is a chicken and egg problem. As the numbers of EVs on the road increases, the infrastructure will improve as well.

For now it is a trendy and expensive toy. Perhaps in two generations if it is still here and there are superchargers at every gas pump, and a viable resale market, but just not the case in the foreseeable future.

There is certainly no need to have "a super charger at every gas pump" when most homeowners already have their own "gas pump" in the form of a power outlet in the garage. Public charging is only needed when venturing too far from home, and is the exception, not the rule.

Most of them fail, but we always learn something. I think the Tesla is in this category, although I wish it well. The infrastructure is just not there.

I think you are wrong about the direction Tesla and EVs are going in general.The Leaf, another EV, with 1/4 of the battery capacity of the Tesla, is now in the top 10 best selling cars in the San Francisco Bay Area according to Nissan.

Yes, the public charging infrastructure needs improvements, but it is a chicken and egg problem. As the numbers of EVs on the road increases, the infrastructure will improve as well.

For now it is a trendy and expensive toy. Perhaps in two generations if it is still here and there are superchargers at every gas pump, and a viable resale market, but just not the case in the foreseeable future.

There is certainly no need to have "a super charger at every gas pump" when most homeowners already have their own "gas pump" in the form of a power outlet in the garage. Public charging is only needed when venturing too far from home, and is the exception, not the rule.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to killjoy, which saved some time out of my day. In any case, I think it's fair to say that most proponents of the new technology are not overly sanguine about, nor attached to, the future of a given company. But it does seem like people have a lot of unrealistic expectations about what they're supposed to accomplish in an extremely limited period of time. Time will tell, and, if they fail, the next one to try will have to try harder.

I do agree that we can look forward to gradually improving infrastructure. Progress is being made on the supercharger network, and there's a pretty wide availability of level 2 charging, which is too slow to be practical, but could reduce range anxiety. At the same time, I'm surprised at the emphasis that some people put on it as necessity. As you (or possibly someone else?) have mentioned a couple times in this thread, the number of times that most people exceed the range of the Tesla, or even the Leaf in a given month is pretty small, and most families own multiple cars. It's really not unrealistic that at a given price (for EV and for gasoline), it may make sense to make one of those cars an EV, regardless of the availability of infrastructure, or even renting a car for occasional long trips.

An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. -- GK Chesterton

ryuns wrote:As you (or possibly someone else?) have mentioned a couple times in this thread, the number of times that most people exceed the range of the Tesla, or even the Leaf in a given month is pretty small, and most families own multiple cars.

That's true for my family, and frankly for every family I know (I'm explicitly excluding single people, although they could always rent). When we have a long trip, we'll swap cars until the infrastructure is in place.

What I don't understand is why people are so negative about this, to the point of seeming angry. I understand that it's an expensive car that not everyone can afford; I understand that one might not approve of the subsidy (just as I don't care for a dozen or so subsidies which the forum rules don't allow me to mention). I don't understand getting exercised over the Tesla in a negative way.

TomatoTomahto wrote:What I don't understand is why people are so negative about this, to the point of seeming angry. I understand that it's an expensive car that not everyone can afford; I understand that one might not approve of the subsidy (just as I don't care for a dozen or so subsidies which the forum rules don't allow me to mention). I don't understand getting exercised over the Tesla in a negative way.

The only negative I have is that it qualifies for such a hefty tax subsidy, which means I have to pay for my car, my gas, part of your car, and both of our roads (via gas tax). It uses a oversized battery because it is a luxury sports sedan...the huge battery capacity qualifies it for a large taxpayer subsidy.

TomatoTomahto wrote:What I don't understand is why people are so negative about this, to the point of seeming angry. I understand that it's an expensive car that not everyone can afford; I understand that one might not approve of the subsidy (just as I don't care for a dozen or so subsidies which the forum rules don't allow me to mention). I don't understand getting exercised over the Tesla in a negative way.

The only negative I have is that it qualifies for such a hefty tax subsidy, which means I have to pay for my car, my gas, part of your car, and both of our roads (via gas tax). It uses a oversized battery because it is a luxury sports sedan...the huge battery capacity qualifies it for a large taxpayer subsidy.

Jfet, I'm not allowed to itemize them, but I wind up paying for all sorts of things that others think is a social good, but which I don't. That's life in a non-flat tax world. I am willing to bet that the home-ownership subsidy (I think that one's okay to mention) is at least one or two orders of magnitude greater than the Tesla subsidy.

TomatoTomahto wrote:Jfet, I'm not allowed to itemize them, but I wind up paying for all sorts of things that others think is a social good, but which I don't. That's life in a non-flat tax world. I am willing to bet that the home-ownership subsidy (I think that one's okay to mention) is at least one or two orders of magnitude greater than the Tesla subsidy.

Well I just answered with the main reason I am negative on Tesla. Having paid off my home with extreme saving, I am negative on the home-ownership subsidy too.

At least there was a recent article about the ultra efficient diesels finally coming to the USA. I would like to see a nice subsidy for those as I might actually consider buying one. Europe has been using them for ages....46mpg and fairly clean.

Jfet wrote:The only negative I have is that it qualifies for such a hefty tax subsidy, which means I have to pay for my car, my gas, part of your car, and both of our roads (via gas tax). It uses a oversized battery because it is a luxury sports sedan...the huge battery capacity qualifies it for a large taxpayer subsidy.

Actually, the federal tax credit is $2500 for 4 kWh battery vehicles, plus $417 per kWh, up to a maximum credit of $7500.The Chevy Volt, with its 16 kWh battery (for model years 2011/2012), qualifies for the full tax credit exactly. It is not really a coincidence that the credit was sized to benefit that vehicle the most, as the government was the main shareholder of GM at the time the credit was enacted.Vehicles with larger batteries, such as my Nissan Leaf - 24 kWh - or the Tesla S - 60 to 85 kWh - do not get any additional subsidy.The credit cap actually encourages manufacturers to build EVs with smaller batteries, not oversized batteries, such as the Volt.

As for subsidies, drivers of liquid fuel vehicles are not paying the full cost of their emissions on society either, so they are also subsidized by the taxpayers and those paying for their health coverage, who have to pay for those that get sick due to vehicle emissions.

As for subsidies, drivers of liquid fuel vehicles are not paying the full cost of their emissions on society either, so they are also subsidized by the taxpayers and those paying for their health coverage, who have to pay for those that get sick due to vehicle emissions.

Right.... And what type of chemicals and fossil fuels were used to mine and produce the finite life 85kwh of batteries used in those "solid" fuel vehicles like the Tesla? Don't say zero...don't want to be caught in a lie.

Look at what a efficient diesel can do:

"Mileage experts John and Helen Taylor recently did just that when they went almost halfway across the country on a single tank of diesel fuel. We gave the Taylors a 2012 Volkswagen Passat TDI SE for their trip and they drove it from Houston, TX, to Sterling, VA, on one tank of diesel fuel - that's 1,626.1 miles at a whopping 84.1 miles per gallon. And we thought 43 highway miles per gallon was impressive!"

It is a lot more than $7500. First, California tosses in another $2500 of taxpayer money. So that is $10,000. Then Tesla sells "clean credits" to other car manufacturers who want to sell in California but don't have a viable plug in car. That is another $13,600 per car. Part of that obviously comes from taxpayers, as they pay more for their car because the manufacturers are going to pass the cost along.

It is a lot more than $7500. First, California tosses in another $2500 of taxpayer money. So that is $10,000. Then Tesla sells "clean credits" to other car manufacturers who want to sell in California but don't have a viable plug in car. That is another $13,600 per car. Part of that obviously comes from taxpayers, as they pay more for their car because the manufacturers are going to pass the cost along.

Dont' even get me started on the amount of ridiculous tax subsidies we pay for gas in the US, which cripple any alternative energy technology investments. THAT is the real tax subsidy in auto transport you should be howling about, not the miniscule tax savings from a insignificant number of Teslas and other EVs on the market compared to the regular autos. (You should encourage those EVs as well, given the high percentage of US-produced parts with Tesla - 55% US/CA.)

Go to Europe to get a better sense of how much gas should really cost.

lightheir wrote:Dont' even get me started on the amount of ridiculous tax subsidies we pay for gas in the US, which cripple any alternative energy technology investments. THAT is the real tax subsidy in auto transport you should be howling about, not the miniscule tax savings from a insignificant number of Teslas and other EVs on the market compared to the regular autos. (You should encourage those EVs as well, given the high percentage of US-produced parts with Tesla - 55% US/CA.)

Go to Europe to get a better sense of how much gas should really cost.

As a %, the USA subsidizes gasoline a lot less than it subsidizes Tesla cars over the life of a car assuming 100,000 miles. For a 30mpg car gasoline would have to be subsidized by $7 a gallon for it to compare with the Tesla subsidy. I haven't seen many places selling negative $3 a gallon gas recently, have you?

PS, is all the electricity on the grid tapped by a Tesla produced by non-polluting, non-subsidized fairies?