I chose writing because I feel like it's much easier to put together an adequate American history offering for grammar OR logic stage from Barnes & Noble or Borders if necessary, whereas I often wonder "where are we going? where should be we at what point?" and so forth with regards to writing.

I voted for Logic-stage American history course (5-8)! I'm currently doing exploring America after the Revolutionary War with my logic stage kid and would jump for joy to have a spine done in your style. I know it wouldn't be ready for him, but he has four younger siblings.

It's hard to say--writing instruction is my nemesis, so probably logic stage help would be best for me. I just don't get the "leap" into things like how to teach essay question writing for a test, or how to truly edit my child's work without destroying both the work and the child thru my criticism!

OTOH, I don't think you should EVER (lol) do an American History course for grammar stage. It would undermine your reasons for setting AH in the world context. We already have SOTW, and it needs no supplementation, imo. A logic stage AH might be interesting--but I would like to see it remain in the world context--can you do that? For sure, we need something more interesting than reading encyclopedia entries as the spine.

What do you feel more in need of--an American history course or a 5-8 grade writing program?

Definitely the writing program. I feel that if I can teach writing skills to my kids, I can cobble together almost anything, content-wise. And I like *your* way of teaching them - you make it simple, do-able, and thorough.

(Yes, I'm in Canada, but I'm a dual citizen, so of course would enjoy an American history course by you - just need the writing help first)

1. It could be a follow up to WWE
2. Writing is a hard subject to teach for most of us!
3. There are lots of grammar stage, and some logic stage, US history pgms out there already
4. You could do a writing course based on US history (sort of killing two birds at once, right?)

With as many american history products as there are on the market, I don't see how one more really helps. People seem to specialized or have found their niche in approach by that point anyway. My dd thinks history isn't being done if it doesn't involve crafts, dressing up, re-enacting, and reading biographies. Other people don't want those things at all. Some people are going to be adamant they want a certain religious spin to their american history (or at least the inclusion of the religious heritage) and others are going to want that O-U-T. So I don't see how you win there. Whatever you make is going to hit a niche market and not transcend the way SOTW was able to, unless you have time to think through that and create a product that transcends. Even then, I think you're looking at a 2-year program, not a one year course. The product that would meet the needs of the most people the most quickly, and transcend boundaries of style, is the sequel to WWE, by far. And while you're writing WWEjunior and WWE senior, your team could be researching and thinking through an approach to american. It just seems to me that to tackle something on the scale of a junior high level rewrite of american history, you'd be talking years of work.

What you really don't have is the ultimate follow-up to SOTW1-4. I think if you asked people what they wanted from you for history, that's what they would say. Then american would just be a supplement, a book you write on the side that expands SOTW3/4 and another to expand junior high 3/4. And those might even be in one book, two sections of one book, or something like that. Or it could be a syllabus that uses another book as a spine but pulls it together for people, like the SOTW AG's.

I voted for writing as it seems to be the largest need by far mentioned on the boards. I might also add, a logic stage follow up to FLL. The grammar duo of FLL and WWE compliment and cement concepts so well, I would love to have the same for logic, as well.

OTOH, I don't think you should EVER (lol) do an American History course for grammar stage. It would undermine your reasons for setting AH in the world context. We already have SOTW, and it needs no supplementation.

:iagree:Sort of... Our girls are currently too young for SOTW, but I have been reading through all four volumes. IMO, SOTW is just right for the grammar stage, perhaps even the early logic stage. However, we do have two concerns about the strictly chronological order of things.

1. If we study history chronologically, beginning when our oldest student is in first grade, then she will be in fourth grade before she learns about her own nation's story, symbols, songs, traditions, and celebrations. This seems rather late.

2. OTOH, if we study history chronologically, and carry our youngest students (twins) along with us as we go, then they will only be in second grade when we come to Volume 4. This seems rather early!

What we plan to do is begin our study of the world with Geography (1 year) and American History (probably 2 years), then work through the SOTW sequence together when our students are in 3rd and 1st (twins). That seems to be a good compromise.

Perhaps PHP could offer (or recommend) some optional products to fill in the "gap years" -- courses that a family would study before starting a 4-year sequence or in between the grammar and logic stages, if a younger student needed an extra year:

World Geography (1 year)

American History (1 or 2 years)

An AH course might give families who are waiting to begin the SOTW sequence the materials they need to begin studying some aspect of history, without getting into the egocentric "My Family, My Town, My Community Helpers" syndrome of so many K/1st curricula. :tongue_smilie:HTH.

If I could have a "do-over" I would spend grade 2 on world geography, grades 3 & 4 on American History, and thenI would do a four-year chronological history cycle during grades 5 - 8 folding in age-appropriate literature. We did SOTW 1, 2, & 3, but I felt like SOTW 4 was just not a good fit for the fourth grade. After completing the four-year (5 - 8) chronological cycle a choice could be made whether to repeat that four-year cycle for high school with a great books study OR to follow a more traditional history/social science journey through high school (Geography for grade 9, World History for 10, Amercan History for 11, and Gov't/Econ for grade 12).

With as many american history products as there are on the market, I don't see how one more really helps. People seem to specialized or have found their niche in approach by that point anyway. My dd thinks history isn't being done if it doesn't involve crafts, dressing up, re-enacting, and reading biographies. Other people don't want those things at all. Some people are going to be adamant they want a certain religious spin to their american history (or at least the inclusion of the religious heritage) and others are going to want that O-U-T. So I don't see how you win there. Whatever you make is going to hit a niche market and not transcend the way SOTW was able to, unless you have time to think through that and create a product that transcends. Even then, I think you're looking at a 2-year program, not a one year course. The product that would meet the needs of the most people the most quickly, and transcend boundaries of style, is the sequel to WWE, by far. And while you're writing WWEjunior and WWE senior, your team could be researching and thinking through an approach to american. It just seems to me that to tackle something on the scale of a junior high level rewrite of american history, you'd be talking years of work.

What you really don't have is the ultimate follow-up to SOTW1-4. I think if you asked people what they wanted from you for history, that's what they would say. Then american would just be a supplement, a book you write on the side that expands SOTW3/4 and another to expand junior high 3/4. And those might even be in one book, two sections of one book, or something like that. Or it could be a syllabus that uses another book as a spine but pulls it together for people, like the SOTW AG's.

What you really don't have is the ultimate follow-up to SOTW1-4. I think if you asked people what they wanted from you for history, that's what they would say. Then american would just be a supplement, a book you write on the side that expands SOTW3/4 and another to expand junior high 3/4. And those might even be in one book, two sections of one book, or something like that. Or it could be a syllabus that uses another book as a spine but pulls it together for people, like the SOTW AG's.

Exactly! We have found acceptable logic stage programs, but nothing nearly as good as SOTW. Something between SOTW and The History of the Ancient World would be wonderful.

With as many american history products as there are on the market, I don't see how one more really helps. People seem to specialized or have found their niche in approach by that point anyway. My dd thinks history isn't being done if it doesn't involve crafts, dressing up, re-enacting, and reading biographies. Other people don't want those things at all. Some people are going to be adamant they want a certain religious spin to their american history (or at least the inclusion of the religious heritage) and others are going to want that O-U-T. So I don't see how you win there. Whatever you make is going to hit a niche market and not transcend the way SOTW was able to, unless you have time to think through that and create a product that transcends. Even then, I think you're looking at a 2-year program, not a one year course. The product that would meet the needs of the most people the most quickly, and transcend boundaries of style, is the sequel to WWE, by far. And while you're writing WWEjunior and WWE senior, your team could be researching and thinking through an approach to american. It just seems to me that to tackle something on the scale of a junior high level rewrite of american history, you'd be talking years of work.

What you really don't have is the ultimate follow-up to SOTW1-4. I think if you asked people what they wanted from you for history, that's what they would say. Then american would just be a supplement, a book you write on the side that expands SOTW3/4 and another to expand junior high 3/4. And those might even be in one book, two sections of one book, or something like that. Or it could be a syllabus that uses another book as a spine but pulls it together for people, like the SOTW AG's.

:iagree:

I would LOVE a 4-year logic stage world history course, but of the choices listed, writing is by far the winner.

Just curious, and please don't consider this any sort of update on my work, let alone promise, but you could help me back with some feedback. We get lots of phone calls in the office about this...

What do you feel more in need of--an American history course or a 5-8 grade writing program?

Ok - yes, I agree with OhElizabeth above. I have found my niche, I guess, and I admit I don't like any of the pre-packaged curriculum well enough to blindly trust them with my children. (Tho' goodness, I wish I could - LOL!)

OTOH ~ I voted other because, after listening to you speak (briefly), and comparing notes with friends on the board, I sometimes get the feeling that there is a disconnect between what you envision as "homeschool ala WTM" and what happens in the daily lives of those of us who try so hard to follow WTM (especially at first). Specifically, I know Colleen in NS (sorry to call you out there, friend!) has posted about how WWE simplifies some of the writing/outlining/narration requirements found in WTM for grammar stage. So, what I would *really* like is an addendum to WTM which would show how to combine the various suggestions in WTM into a "total homeschooling game plan" - the big picture, so to speak, for each stage of learning. (I imagine this would be a weekly plan?)

I guess that can get sticky; I remember you mentioning you didn't want to get into telling people how to manage their children. But, that's not what I'm envisioning. I'd just like more insight into ~IDK~ simplifying (?) the suggestions in WTM? Or, what I think I'm really wanting, integrating them into a holistic approach, rather than a subject-by-subject check-off list? I'm sorry, I'm not really explaining very well.... How about a chapter on "how to throw out all the schedules in WTM, and still be sure that you're covering enough" or "what really happens when you can't do it all."

ETA: Just thought of a more concrete example this morning. After the Williamsburg conference, the news went out on the high school board to assign three one-page persuasive papers each week (hist, lit, sci). But I haven't seen that anywhere in WTM. Neither in those sections individually, nor in the rhetoric section. I am trying to work toward that goal, but it seems burdensome. And, I know you're not about "burdensome" - so there must be something somewhere I'm not getting. I am certain you wouldn't have thought, "Oh, there's just really not enough for the high school student to be doing, so I think I'll add in 3 essays a week." (LOL!)

Please, please, please, please the logic stage writing first! I'd really love to continue on with the series and not have to switch. However in my dreams I'd love a one volume American History similar to SOTW that could be used in K. Since I've got plenty of time before I need to do K again, the logic stage writing is definately a priority to me .

Please, please, please, please the logic stage writing first! I'd really love to continue on with the series and not have to switch. However in my dreams I'd love a one volume American History similar to SOTW that could be used in K. Since I've got plenty of time before I need to do K again, the logic stage writing is definately a priority to me .

But there already ARE so many products available to survey american for this age. Just off the top of my head: Rainbow book of American History, 100 Stories of American History, CSOA, Eggleston. CLP has a couple. TQ lets you survey american using books. (It's what turned my dd into a history lover.) And there are doubtless many more I don't know about. I get loving SWB. I get wanting something perfect. But there really already are a lot of options. There are options at the junior high level too, though less. 4th-5th is the stickiest age, and even then we squeak by.

SOTW was unique because at the time there was nothing like it. CHOW was one year and SOTW4, so it just blew apart the whole paradigm of how things had to be done. And yes, I'm with Cynthia in OK about flexing the lower levels. The more I progress, the more I look back and see it didn't have to be so discreet. We read about the Middle Ages and Egypt while we study american formally. We could have jumbled it all together, done a lot more, in any order we pleased, and straightened it all out come 5th grade. But again that's where materials need to transcend or be flexible and work in lots of ways for lots of users.

4th-6th is the age that has the biggest lack for american history (no really GREAT spines for that age), but it's also the age when the big spread shows up as far as ability, depth of interest, desire for detail, how people use the materials (student reading vs. mom read aloud), etc. Certainly it has huge potential as a foil for teaching the 5th and 6th grade writing skills, if you combined them. But again, that's a huge undertaking. You're talking a two-year course that some would chose to do in one. You're talking research to get depth and sequence. You're talking AG's to go with it.

Well enough of that. Anything SWB does will be fine and will sell well. I just think there's logic and merit to finishing the WWE materials before starting history. If you get them going concurrently, by all means pursue anything you like. That 4th - 6th gr level american is the biggest hole, but it's the hardest to fill. A SOTW5-8 would give you something people could bring down to that level for advanced kids or would at least satisfy them that more is coming later. Or you could make a supplement. Or you could be really wild and get REALLY out of the box. You know what I really think is missing for american history? Something that has about 3 levels of instruction, is patriotic, and includes all the facets of our culture (music, poetry, movies, etc.). It so irks me that it's hard to find stuff that is just downright patriotic, telling us to love our country, that America is great, and how we got this way. There are little bits and supplements, but not much by way of full curricula like that. But that just goes to show you'll never please everyone. I want an american history curriculum to gush about america, where the goal of most classical is to make you a student of the world.

But there already ARE so many products available to survey american for this age. Just off the top of my head: Rainbow book of American History, 100 Stories of American History, CSOA, Eggleston. CLP has a couple. TQ lets you survey american using books. (It's what turned my dd into a history lover.) And there are doubtless many more I don't know about. I get loving SWB. I get wanting something perfect. But there really already are a lot of options. There are options at the junior high level too, though less. 4th-5th is the stickiest age, and even then we squeak by.

Thanks OhElizabeth, I didn't realize that all those could be used with a K-er!

Depends on the level of student (whether he's reading or not) and how you use them, but absolutely those materials are good options! Look at WP AS 1/2 and MFW Adventures. The Eggleston books come in two or three different levels and survey american. Queen Homeschool publishes numerous compilations. The Rainbow book is very accessible as a read aloud. With TQ you can do the reading or a strong reader can read for himself. I didn't even include the COFA's (Childhood of Famous Americans series). Any dc who reads through those has a huge spread of knowledge to pull together with a formal curriculum. And there are more options out there. Michellemybell (sp?) from the boards here put together a nice list of things for a K5er. Maybe she'll do it again in a year and have 1st grade recs.

The trick with homeschooling is learning how to use materials, how to make them what you want.

I chose writing as well. I can stumble our way through history without doing any damage. Writing on the other hand is something they have a much greater need for, and as someone who struggles to write, it is very difficult to teach. Especially when you have a child that struggles too. I love WWE, but mine are in 7th and 5th and I need help! ( While you're at it, maybe a mom-stage writing course too? )

I definitely vote for logic stage writing. In my opinion, there are tons of good history programs out there for this age but the writing is really lacking and I have loved your writing program for grammar stage.

I would go for the logic stage writing. Writing instruction is the subject that haunts my mind while I'm supposed to be doing other things. It's a good thing that cooking supper is automatic right now. I'm a big picture person and I love knowing where I'm going, or trying to go to. Every once in a while I have an epiphany but then I forget what I figured out. I love having WTM and WWE to come back to and reread countless times. It helps to clarify what I'm trying to do and where my dd's are in the writing process.

Something that would be handy on the history angle is a history of North America. It would be interesting to see how the histories of Canada, USA, and Mexico overlap. I know that's not a real priority for most Americans but our histories are interconnected and we might just learn something about each other.Although I would hazard a guess that Canadians know way more history about the USA than Americans do about Canada. And I will freely admit that I know very little about Mexican history.

BTW I absolutely love the products you put out. I think I have a PHP bookshelf.

I voted for logic stage writing. The WWE method has transformed my view of writing in our homeschool, and put it much higher on the priority list. Having the WWE main text and workbooks helps me to see where we're going in the long run and give me what I need to work toward those goals day by day.

I agree that there are already plenty of American History materials available; though I'd love to see one in your narrative style. Since I struggle with teaching writing and not with history, I'd rather see the WWE series continued than American History since you can't clone yourself and do both.

I forgot about the whole idea of needing diagramming in order to write good sentences. I was counting on that being spelled out for me in WWE 5. So I changed my mind. Let my vote stand for logic stage writing.

I voted "something else" because I think it would be great to see you write a Science curriculum for elementary grades. Having said that, my next vote would be for the logic stage writing. I love IEW, but I can see us getting burned out with all that, and needing a different approach. American history is easy to put together on my own, and it seems to me there are already a lot of great resources for American history.

What do you feel more in need of--an American history course or a 5-8 grade writing program?

I'm using WWE and hope to continue with WWS for 5-8, but given that I could also transition to CW or IEW at that time, I have to say my poll choice would be American history at the same level of SOTW. As others have mentioned, it could be used to supplement SOTW 3-4 or as a stand alone for those who are doing some American history out of sequence. To keep my kids together without hitting SOTW 3/4 with a K/1 kiddo (and because I feel people should know the history of their own country best), I'm doing a two year rotation of American history followed by 4 years of SOTW. Then we'll do another 2 year American history rotation followed by 4 more years of world history (this time using your History of the Ancient World, Medieval, etc.).

The biggest reason I think you should produce an American history volume (or two or three...) is that I respectfully disagree with the idea that there are any reasonable alternatives for grammar stage out there. Anyone who watches the K-8 board long enough will see thread after thread asking about American history spines. The fact is that there is not one perfect spine (like SOTW!) that goes from earliest times (I personally began with the land bridge and did 8 weeks of Native Americans before explorers) to present. All that have been suggested are inherently flawed (and sadly I know, because I bought them all in an attempt to find the elusive perfect American history spine for grammar). The Rainbow Book of American History is old (and so has some offensive language) and doesn't really flow as a story. Plus, it only goes up to the space race (and that's if you get the newer version). Add to that the fact that it's out of print. The American Story is a lovely book of stories but the stories don't tell the American story as a whole. There is no flow whatsoever, except that the stories are in chronological order.There is zero cause and effect. A Child's Story of America is (how can I put this and not be political?) probably going to be offensive to anyone who is not a conservative Republican. Also, it's unattractive to the secular crowd, whereas people from all walks of life seem to find SOTW unbiased enough to use with success. They can read the story and add in their perspective. Eggleston and Pratt are well told but there is some offensive material in those volumes and, of course, they don't even come close to present day. Name some more and I'll go find them on my shelf and tell you why they don't hold a candle to Susan Wise Bauer's Story of America.

For me, a grammar stage American history spine is the holy grail. I personally feel there are more attractive choices for the logic stage. I've got Hakim's 11 volume set waiting on the shelf for our next American history rotation (and they're serving me well for self-education in the interim). I seem to remember there being other good options to choose from as well, but I have since forgotten them all since the whole selection process for logic didn't bring me as much angst as grammar.

Personally, I agree that I want WWS for 5-8 and an American history for grammar.

ETA: Another thought... I don't know if you have to decide between grammar and logic stage American history, given that so many people use SOTW in either stage. Interesting and accessible is interesting and accessible. If SOTW can be used in 1-4 or 5-8, why not the same for an American history?