Agreed but... so what? No one (relatively) listens to Blogtalkradio. Again, there is a huge barrier to create something worth listening to.

There is zero barrier for me to create a search engine. ZERO. Competing with Google and Bing is another story. Barrier to entry is a red herring. The real issue is cost to compete.

LOL Sure. Right. Google makes billions, Pandora makes NOTHING! Great analogy. Turntable.fm with its shoestring budget could conceivably beat Pandora in a year or 2. Really! So can Spotify and a thousand others internet music companies on the horizon. There is no barrier to entry and that is why nobody has made money at it 17 years. Believe me after Turntable and Spotify hit big there will be the next round to beat them. So far nobody has made a business out of it. Google is one of the biggest businesses in the world. Pandora hasn't made a dime. Silly analogy.

Really thus far in its 17 year history internet radio is a hobby, a game, a feature. It's a collection of ears. Until the public, in critical mass, is willing to pay for content on internet radio it will never become a business. If an internet radio company grabs supreme content like Howard or the NFL, then Sirius has something to worry about. There is no barrier to entry for music that people can get for free in thousands of places on the net. Music is not compelling exclusive content.

Really, radio is Mel's game to lose. Right now I believe he has the only radio model that has mass appeal to paying subscribers. There is a person who could have made internet radio a business for Pandora or Slacker or Last.fm. That person is Howard. He chose to stay with Sirius. I have serious doubts that these "big names" in internet radio even approached him for a deal last year.

You want to compare the search advertising business to the internet radio "business"? Go right ahead......... There isn't anybody in the media industry that would agree with you. No one.

The real problem here is you are obviously living in the 90s internet techie era. An era long over. Nobody gets judged in the new media industry by eyeballs or ears listening anymore. They get judged by cash flow. In 17 years nobody has been successful at internet radio. Pandora has registered 94 million people. 94 Million!!! And their cash flow stayed negative. With no projection on positive cash flow. What happens when thousands of other net radio companies hit smartphones and start fragmenting their audience? Not a tough equation at all.

You want to compare the search advertising business to the internet radio "business"? Go right ahead......... There isn't anybody in the media industry that would agree with you. No one.

I don't want to compare the models, I never said I did. I am simply stating that Google had no business model when it started. It had no ads. It made no money. Not only did Google figure it out, they have since turned themselves into much more than search and are a multi billion dollar company. All I am saying is, you don't need to have it all figured out to be profitable some day.

It seems pretty clear to me that Pandora and the likes are still in the phase where they are willing to burn money to attract a larger base. Someday they will flip the switch and then we will find out if people are really willing to pay.

I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not they will be successful, frankly, I don't care. I only chimed in on this because you were originally sticking to a point that there is no barrier to entry... it is my opinion that there is and even though there is... it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

The real problem here is you are obviously living in the 90s internet techie era. An era long over.

Obviously? I wasnt even old enough to be "living in the 90's techie era." I know what happened during the 90's and the tech crash but, to say that I am living in it makes zero sense. Not only am I not living in it, I never was.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

Nobody gets judged in the new media industry by eyeballs or ears listening anymore. They get judged by cash flow.

Really? Explain Facebook and their current valuation. It certainly has nothing to do with their cashflow.

I don't want to compare the models, I never said I did. I am simply stating that Google had no business model when it started. It had no ads. It made no money. Not only did Google figure it out, they have since turned themselves into much more than search and are a multi billion dollar company. All I am saying is, you don't need to have it all figured out to be profitable some day.

It seems pretty clear to me that Pandora and the likes are still in the phase where they are willing to burn money to attract a larger base. Someday they will flip the switch and then we will find out if people are really willing to pay.

I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not they will be successful, frankly, I don't care. I only chimed in on this because you were originally sticking to a point that there is no barrier to entry... it is my opinion that there is and even though there is... it doesn't matter.

Obviously? I wasnt even old enough to be "living in the 90's techie era." I know what happened during the 90's and the tech crash but, to say that I am living in it makes zero sense. Not only am I not living in it, I never was.

Really? Explain Facebook and their current valuation. It certainly has nothing to do with their cashflow.

Again, we have strayed far from the original point.

muscle = no barrier
charles = barrier but, who cares.

Do you know how many billions in internet advertising Facebook is selling? BILLIONS!

Internet radio has no barrier to entry. 17 years and nobody has made money. You guys push internet radio on Sirius like its a pot of gold. Its a pile of shit industry and the low margins would destroy Sirius stock if they went at the internet like Pandora does. There is only one way to make radio work - satellite, terrestrial, internet, and thats supreme content. Pandora has none. Thats why they have less than a million paying subs. The thousands of free internet radio stations that are coming to smartphones will fragment the audience. If they had exclusive content then maybe they could fight off the inevitable fragmentation.

There is absolutely no barrier to entry to broadcast a talk show to the world on BlogTalk radio. For free. You all know that. There is absolutely no barrier to entry to broadcast to the world any type of radio music genre you want on Live365 for free. Any infant can do it. These are 2 examples of thousands of internet radio ventures.

Here is an opinion on Pandora's great deal from someone with credible experience in the media industry

Your nephew did not create an Internet Radio company. Live 365 did that. Your nephew merely has created a channel on that platform which he can then share with others. As people listen royalties are paid, as with all Internet radio streaming services.

Your nephew did not negotiate with the record labels. He does not have to seek out and sign deal with advertisers. He does not need to track what songs play so that the appropriate royalties are paid. He did not write the code that makes the platform work. He does not update that code. He does not sign deals with Live356. He is simply a user.

Internet Radio companies have substantial barriers to entry:

1. They must negotiate streaming rights in the countries where they want to broadcast. Spotify has been negotiating for almost a year to get into the United States. You can't just up and say I want to stream music to Europe and do it. If I wanted to start an Internet radio company today, it would take millions of dollars, thousands of man-hours, and about a year to make it happen.

2. They need to develop a compelling website interface that can handle the traffic that they hope to bring.

3. They need to market their brand so that their business can be viable. Marketing is not cheap.

4. Someone starting tof=day needs to be at least as compelling as the likes of Pandora, Mog, Slacker, iHeartRadio, etc. to even have a chance. Many that have dollars, time, and have entered negotiations will still fail. The existence of these very companies is a barrier in and of itself.

Simply stated the barriers are substantial. I don't worry about the "hundreds" that want to try.....I worry about the 5 or 6 that become viable. Not anyone can create these things, and certainly not a child. The viable ones have venture capitalists that back the launch, and even raising the money is no easy feat.

You better worry about the thousands of other like my nephew who does internet radio for free. Because when you get a million internet radio stations with 100 listeners a piece thats 100 million listeners being fragmented. I know of 2 terrestrial radio stations that were sold and taken off the air and started back on Live365. One is WLIR a new wave Lomg Island station from the 80s that used to beat KRock in Arbitron ratings in that era.

Anybody including the hundreds of thousands of bloggers such as yourself can create internet radio for nothing. This creates fragmentation for the big boys.

As much as you love your internet music radio, it is available anywhere for free. There is nothing exclusive about music on the net. If there was something compelling about it that people would pay for it wouldn't be free. That is for certain.

You have no background in radio Spencer. None at all. People like Smulyan, Karmazin Pittman, a couple of which are in the Radio Hall of Fame and one who invented MTV have stated there is no barrier to entry. Pittman has questioned whether it is a business or a feature. They know more than you Spencer. Like it or not. Everybody knows that any and all of the radio industry is trying to make money on internet radio. Including all the aforementioned. Nobody is doing it. As much as you love it NOBODY has done it in 17 years. There is a reason for that. And that reason is not cars. There were tens of millions of people listening to net radio before smartphones got it into cars. The reason nobody has made money at it is no barrier to entry. They fragmented each other on pcs. They will fragment each other on smartphones. The only hope for internet radio is content and the net companies can't afford it.

Watch Pandora 2-3 years from now. Remember Atari and Odessey's Pong? You are seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Do you know how many billions in internet advertising Facebook is selling? BILLIONS!

They were estimated to hit $1 Billion this year.... it is not BILLIONS, with an S. Does that justify a $100 Billion valuation?

Prior to the last couple of years they made zero dollars from advertising. They didn't even have an ad platform.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

Internet radio has no barrier to entry.

No barrier? So, it takes nothing at all to create an internet radio company? Zero dollars?

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

17 years and nobody has made money.

Agreed. For the first 16 years no one got even close. Now, someone has. Times change, models change, and the value has certainly changed. What good was internet radio 15 years ago when people couldn't stream to all of their devices they have now? There were no iPads, iPhones, or 4G. Hell, their weren't even wi-fi networks. Now, all of a sudden, it's worth spending a few bucks on. Like I said, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

You guys push internet radio on Sirius like its a pot of gold.

I do? I want them to evolve in general and get their shit to market faster but, that doesnt mean I think they should move to an internet only platform... even though that is the only way I listen.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

Its a pile of shit industry and the low margins would destroy Sirius stock if they went at the internet like Pandora does.

They already have... haven't they? I mean, anyone can sign up to listen to Sirius XM via the web and they had Howard out there pounding the pavement pushing their iPad/iPhone app. Like I said, it's the only way I listen.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

There is only one way to make radio work - satellite, terrestrial, internet, and thats supreme content

Agreed. That said, to some, customizable neverending music at your fingertips is supreme content. For 1/3 the price of one CD I can listen to whatever I want on demand... as a music lover, that is awesome. If they doubled their price, it would still be awesome.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

Pandora has none.

Music is content. Not everyone listens to talk radio.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

Thats why they have less than a million paying subs.

They have less than a million subs because the paid version isn't compelling enough IMHO (it is with slacker).

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

The thousands of free internet radio stations that are coming to smartphones will fragment the audience.

I disagree. Whoever makes the simplest to use UI with the biggest brand recognition will win. It's going to be hard to cut in on Pandoras market because Pandora is a recognized name at the top of the top downloaded app list. It's very hard to move an app off that list. The higher you are, the more downloads you get, the more downloads you get, the higher you are. It's a vicious cycle... much like Google SERP's.

You better worry about the thousands of other like my nephew who does internet radio for free. Because when you get a million internet radio stations with 100 listeners a piece thats 100 million listeners being fragmented.

Those numbers seem sensationalized to me. Is that 100 million worldwide? If so, that leaves a huge untapped market.

No one wants to search all over the place for a bunch of hack niche stations. I want the 5 best front and center. There are tens of thousands of search engines in the world yet Google controls something crazy like 65% of all searches with Bing and Yahoo accounting for another 30%. Why didn't the fragmentation affect them? How is radio any different? People want the best possible product and there might be room for a few others. The market proves that with everything.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

As much as you love your internet music radio, it is available anywhere for free. There is nothing exclusive about music on the net. If there was something compelling about it that people would pay for it wouldn't be free.

It is getting compelling. I pay for it. I wouldnt have dreamed of that 2 years ago. I think the next generation might as well. Although, its hard to say if they will all resort to pirating. It's always a fine line for me, music has to be compelling enough to justify the price but, no so expensive that it would be worth my time to find a pirated version.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

You have no background in radio Spencer. None at all. People like Smulyan, Karmazin Pittman, a couple of which are in the Radio Hall of Fame and one who invented MTV have stated there is no barrier to entry. Pittman has questioned whether it is a business or a feature. They know more than you Spencer. Like it or not. Everybody knows that any and all of the radio industry is trying to make money on internet radio.

The smartest people in the world, the "radio hall of fame" caliber people of the world, at one point, thought the world was flat. More recently those same types of people thought the smallest particle was an electron, then they thought it was a quark, and now they realize there are sub atomic particles even smaller. Times change. To ignore the fact that people have throught history proven their ignorance time and time again is, in itself, the highest form of ignorance.

Stop and think for a minute about all of the things that were labeled impossible or impracticable to produce...

Doctors... DOCTORS... told people it was healthy to smoke and they believed it to be true. They were in commercials pushing the product and all the world believed the "people who were smarter than them."

The world we live in now is very different from 17 years ago. VERY different.

Originally Posted by MUSCLE13

Watch Pandora 2-3 years from now. Remember Atari and Odessey's Pong? You are seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Again, I don't care either way but, if for some reason they find a way to charge an appropriate price that people are willing to pay and because of that they become cash flow positive, I just hope you and I are around to see it. There is nothing more entertaining than new businessmen proving old, stubborn, narrow minded businessmen wrong.