Alright, going to be blatant here. Truth's tiering and some of his haxes seem to be very unjustified to say the least.

First thing first, him even being Low 2-C in the first place. When under any circumstance have we ever accepted someone being tier 2 here just by being an entire universe? Because if I didn't know any better, any being that's identified as a universal omnipresent would be able to qualify for that, which obviously isn't the case. And because I feel someone will bring this up, no, Zamasu is not a counter-argument for this since he actually has evidence of becoming one with space-time to qualify for his Low 2-C (and eventual 2-C) rating. Truth on the other hand isn't given that same luxary. All he is known for is existing as the universe. That's it. Not only is he not a fighter, but he's never established as being one with an entire space-time continuum like the former example is from what I recall from the series. He's literally just a textbook example of what an Omnipresent is.

Next issue is his Conceptual Manipulation. Where does this come from exactly? His page gives absolutely no details into this or what his concept hax exactly entails. But more to the point, there isn't a single point where Truth demonstrates this. He doesnt create concepts, nor does he destroy them. If all the basis to this is him existing as the universe and everything inside it, we've already had this song and dance of how existing as concepts (if even wanting to push this that far since no such statement of him existing as any concept is listed) doesn't grant you conceptual hax. Not without considerable evidence anyway.

But the biggest issue here of all would probably have to be his Omniscience. Don't get me wrong. If this was Nigh-Omniscience, it would be much better approrpriate and easily far more acceptable. But a series with a single universal-sized cosmology granting you Omniscience? Yeah no. First of all, the FMA Universe is never stated to be infinite, so it literally having infinite knowledge already seems fishy. Second, we have many verses here that are FAR bigger than FMA's cosmology, scoping from a dozen universes to trillions.. None of the characters there have anything more than Nigh-Omniscience. Even those who are Knowledge as a concept incarnate aren't given full on Omniscience.

If there's anymore issues, anyone's welcome to point them out. But these 3 are the main bread and butter.

Omniscience is the state of having all knowledge, or in other words, knowing everything. A character that is omniscient knows everything that their opponent is going to do before they do it, and exactly what to do to win any fight. An omniscient character is still capable of being overpowered and losing, however. Also knowledge of other fictions is not a requirement for omniscience, so a character that knows everything about their own fictional franchise is considered to be omniscient.

So long as Truth knows everything in the FMA verse, he qualifies. There being a single universe cosmology or it not being infinite in size means nothing going by our page description. For your Uxie example, if it knows everything about the Pokemon verse then it should have full blown Omniscience.

I disagree with downgrading him since he literally is the universe itself. It isn't just abstract universal omnipresence. Zamasu merged with space and time but he is space and time. Though he migh be 3-A if the universe isn't treated as 4D.

I agree with removing Conceptual Manipulation if there's no supporting evidence.

I disagree with removing Omniscience because he's literally everything in verse.

I do think his Intelligence should be reworded if their is no statement that the FMA universe is infinite. He may know everything in the verse but he can't hold infinite knowledge if the universe isn't infinite in size.

EmperorRorepme wrote:
I disagree with downgrading him since he literally is the universe itself. It isn't just abstract universal omnipresence. Zamasu merged with space and time but he is space and time. Though he migh be 3-A if the universe isn't treated as 4D.

A single statement without any feat to prove it isn't really enough to that Tier.

He isn't some abstract entity like how we put it in the page, he is just an omnipresent being in his universe, since he is everything.

All I can see him getting is "unknown"

I find it funny that a lot of verses goes through hell to prove such tiers with this one being "he is everything so he is universal" and get it accepted.

As for the omniscience, a minor nitpick but he was surprised that Ed chose the right answer and decided to trade Al for his own Door, if he was truly omniscient he would have known from the very beginning that was going to happen so I agree with the nigh-omniscience but for different reasons

Also, Regeneration (Unknown), Immortality (Types 3, 4 and 8), Space-Time Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Death Manipulation need to go too, IIRC he never showed those abilities and while Inmortality type 8 has a somewhat standing ground it's just a big supposition

A statement of him being the universe isn't enough by your standards. It was deemed enough which is why he got that tier. Slight nitpick there's actually two statements of him being the universe and the entire world. Don't know how you interpret this as merely "he is everything so he is universal".

I'm not sure if we should take him "being surprised" as actual fact seeing as he is Ed as well.

So long as Truth knows everything in the FMA verse, he qualifies. There being a single universe cosmology or it not being infinite in size means nothing going by our page description. For your Uxie example, if it knows everything about the Pokemon verse then it should have full blown Omniscience.

With all due respect Lord, if Omniscience was as easily given out as that, Uxie or at least Arceus would have been granted Omniscience a long time ago for Uxie literally being the concept of knowledge incarnate.

Either that, or the description for Omniscience is misleading and needs to be changed. Having limitless knowledge is all apart of being an omniscient from what I see at least and if the verse in question isn't infinite, then there's only a finite number of knowledge that is accessible.

EmperorRorepme wrote:I disagree with downgrading him since he literally is the universe itself. It isn't just abstract universal omnipresence. Zamasu merged with space and time but he is space and time. Though he migh be 3-A if the universe isn't treated as 4D.

"Being the universe itself" isn't a reason to disagree since that reasoning is being disputed here. Like I said, Truth being the universe is simply him being an omnipresent. It's a state of being. He didnt create the universe, he doesnt stablize it or anything that actually requires power of that scope.

In fact, given that Truth holds no dominion over anything that doesn't have to do with Alchemy, it stands to reason that he doesn't even have dominion over everything in the FMA universe. Just authority over Alchemy via equivalant exchange.

I know that's what's being disputed. I disagree. Being the universe should warrant that tier. As it does for Zamasu and a slightly different case but the same principle, The Cosmic Imagination. Why are we assuming "being the universe" is some metaphoric and abstract meaning resulting in just omnipresence rather then, you know, actually being the universe.

Even in these cases, you don't need to create the universe to be it. Nor does need to hold dominion over everything to be the universe.

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand what your talking about. Clockwork is stated to know everything, sees every possible outcome and what has happened. This includes the Ghost Zone and it's infinite realms and the normal universe which is also infinite (in Danny Phantom). Yet he is only Nigh-Omniscient... Again, I understand what your saying for sure, I'm just going off the description.

Tony di bugalu wrote:
As for the omniscience, a minor nitpick but he was surprised that Ed chose the right answer and decided to trade Al for his own Door, if he was truly omniscient he would have known from the very beginning that was going to happen so I agree with the nigh-omniscience but for different reasons

I never got Truth being surprised. It was more like Truth was allowing Edward to answer what is true.

Throughout the series, Truth was pretty kind to Edward. In its own way. It knew the truth of what answer Ed would come to.

"Multiverse level+ (The Cosmic Imagination was said to be reality itself, which has been depicted as an endless sea of universes, and has additionally been cited as being infinite in scale, as well as a "Crazily Huge Infinity". It is said that any being who learns to tap into The Cosmic Imaginations power can create and destroy whatever they wish. "Sleepers", beings who tap into the power of the Cosmic Imagination can create and maintain entire universes, with the last human in existence keeping the multiverse in existence without even knowing it"

I dont know The Cosmic Imagination, but his justification for 2-A is already much much different than what is used for Low 2-C Truth. From what this reads, he's more than just a sentient Multiverse. His power not only allows others to be able to create/destroy "anything they wish", but Sleepers create and maintain entire universes and even keep the Multiverse in existence passively.

Sure I agree it has more justification and complexities but it was just another example of a sentient cosmic construct. I don't see why we shouldn't take what Truth said about itself at face value rather then just taking it as omnipresence. He doesn't say he exists everywhere he basically says he is physically everywhere, including the actual characters themselves.

From what i recall from the Manga, his conceptual manipulation is supposed to be listed as Law Manipulation, due to him creating the Rules of Equivalent Exchange. So that's actually fine if we switch it, as for the tier I'll make a comment about that later.

It's not that we shouldnt take what Truth says at face value. Him being the universe is obvious and just fine. It's more that it shouldn't be scaleable to his AP on that alone.

Like I said before, we have never made a character Tier 2 just by existing as a universal space-time continuum (which btw, this is being assumed for Truth and ignoring the possibility that he only exists across the universe physically). They usually have more backing to their tier 2 rather than existing as everything.

I mean the The Cosmic Imagination is 2-A for being a multiverse. It grants the Wizards abilities but nothing on a 2-A scale. The last human maintaining the multiverse is because to exist the multiverse must be perceived so it isn't an AP related thing.

I'm neutral on this if he's literally physically one with the Universe, then I personally believe he should be universal. He's not someone who's physically less than universal, but his conscious is one with the Universe. Neutral on whether that's 3-A or Low 2-C however.

I'm also fine if Conceptual Manipulation is simply Law Manipulation since he's the one who created the laws of equivalent exchange. Speaking of which, that also implies he created all energy in the Universe, so that seems easily Universal.

And as for Omnipresence. I know someone brought up Arceus, but I recall there are examples of him being not Omniscient. Like he didn't know Marcus was the one who plotted his downfall instead of Damos. And he did get surprised attacked. Truth on the other hand, I don't remember anything that contradicts his Omniscience and he basically just did the typical "Answering questions with questions" to test honest.

The Truth is also stated to be "space" along with the Universe, that seems pretty cut clear to me. His immortalities also come from being apart of everything in the verse, ideas, concepts, the universe itself. Also though i think Abstract Existence is much more fitting for him as opposed to the immortality.

Mind you Kama from Fate was orginally upgraded to low 2-C for the same reason. She's stated multiple times to be the universe itself, which apparently is a low 2-C feat.

The Prince of Counters wrote: His immortalities also come from being apart of everything in the verse, ideas, concepts, the universe itself. Also though i think Abstract Existence is much more fitting for him as opposed to the immortality.

Not directly stated, no. But it's heavily implied, The Truth's entire existence is that he's meant to be one with everything, that's the narrative of Full Metal Alchemist as a whole. At the very least he'd get them from being one with the universe and Equivalent Exchange, which is a concept / idea / law.

Like I said I am fine with Low 2-C as well, it is mostly the immortalities and conceptual manip that take me fore a loop without evidence. But the equivalent exchange thing seems fine but as Law manip.

Also the Truth needs a few abilities, such as mind manipulation ( can inject one's memory without a massive amount of information all at once. ) Information Manipulation and Information Analysis ( can forcibly show others a massive amount of information in a short span of time by pulling them through the Gate ) BFR ( Can pull people into The Gate of Truth, or send them to a hell-like Dimension ) Abstract Existence ( Type:1 Is the universe itself and one with everything, such as The Law of Equivalent Exchange. ) Law manipulation ( created the Laws of Equivalent Exchange and enforces it.) Non-Corporal ( Truth's true body exists beyond the Gate, with his Avatar being Metaphysical.) Immortality type: 9 ( Truths true self exists beyond the Gate of Truth. )

Both are the same entity so they'd both be low 2-C. Truth being the Metaphysical Reflection of who's inside the Gate's Realm, with Truth being what's actually inside the Gate. Think of it as the type of relationship between a gate and a gatekeeper.

>I'm also fine if Conceptual Manipulation is simply Law Manipulation since he's the one who created the laws of equivalent exchange. Speaking of which, that also implies he created all energy in the Universe, so that seems easily Universal.

I actually agree Law Manipulation sounds more appropriate given Truths role. However, no to the latter and for a few reasons.

First of which, the Law of Equivalent exchange is not some universal force or anything like that where the power of the Universe originates from it. At the absolute best, I recall it was stated that planets themselves have their own Gates of Truth, which would imply the power of planets falls under Equivalent Exchange, but nothing ever says the Universe itself falls under this.

Second, "all energy in the universe" is not Low 2-C. Not necessarily anyway. So this would still leave the possibility of it being 3-A on the table.

>And as for Omnipresence. I know someone brought up Arceus, but I recall there are examples of him being not Omniscient. Like he didn't know Marcus was the one who plotted his downfall instead of Damos. And he did get surprised attacked.

Arceus was incomplete at those times since he lost facets of his power via Jewel of Life. Even so, this is obvious PIS since Uxie, the literal concept of Knowledge in the multiverse incarnate, is only a part of Arceus and would heavily contradict this. Not once was he or Uxie ever granted Omniscience despite clearly being all the knowledge Pokemon has to offer. So either Truth's omniscience is being too easily handed to him, others need upgrades, or our standards for Omniscience in general are the issue.

>Mind you Kama from Fate was orginally upgraded to low 2-C for the same reason. She's stated multiple times to be the universe itself, which apparently is a low 2-C feat.

I can't really comment much on here since I dont know the Fate series or its context whatsoever. But from what her profile says, the universe is apparently "her own body and flesh", making her a sentient and walking space-time continuum. While I can understand the principle behind the rating, I still honestly dont think this by itself should be flat out Low 2-C. Being the universe is one thing, but if you are only one with the universe in a "state of being" kind of sense rather than the universe relying on your existence to not be destroed, there isn't anything implying actual power comes from that.

If im outvoted here, sure no prob. Im just expressing my doubts.

>I hope people aren't trying to use this as a legitimate anti-feat for Truth.

I dont know who you're referring to here, but im just gonna say im not apart of that. My issue with his Omniscience stems from the standards of Omniscience as a whole and the FMA cosmology, not what others call an anti-feat. So as far as im concerned, im not using this.

-BFR; I agree with the hax itself, but it has a caveat. And that its useless against anyone who doesnt have Alchemy (or something similar by our standards) since Truth doesn't have dominion over anything that's unrelated to Alchemy.

-Abstract Existence. Would a law be considered a concept? Genunine question because this is something i've never discussed before and it'd be good to know for future reference.

His Abstract Existence would be coming from him being one with the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, and the universe itself.

The Truth directly states he's one with the universe, space and everything. This is a clear cut reasoning for low 2-C, and no, stars, celestial bodies and galaxies all have their own Gate of Truth, with trurth also directly stating he is all, it's no different from Kama.

Father while absorbing just the Gate of Truth of the Earth had control over all known matter in the universe, even Father thinks the amount of enegry he could make with only tiny portion of the Truth's power, with Sun and Earth's gate. Which is what Father does by absorbing the Gates, he gains their energy. But he's incorrect in one regard, The Truth is one with The Universe, not just the world. I.E, he has the energy of the universe due to being one with the universe, similarly how Father gains the earth's and sun's energy by absorbing it's Gate.

BB had a High 3-A possibly low 2-C feat as well iirc, and Kama on top of this, was burned with flames said to be able to burn away the entire universe, and due to being burned by those became the universe and connected to the concept of it, gaining those same flames and also being able to burn the universe away

Although this is probably the last I'll say on this cause I don't wanna derail an FMA thread with Fate ovo

BB had a High 3-A possibly low 2-C feat as well iirc, and Kama on top of this, was burned with flames said to be able to burn away the entire universe, and due to being burned by those became the universe and connected to the concept of it, gaining those same flames and also being able to burn the universe away

As I suspected.
Once again, this is very different than just "being the universe". Kama's actually provided evidence of actually having it's power, and a plethora of scaling to the tier.

Gates produce a certain amount of energy, we see this with Father absorbing the energy of the Earth's and Sun's Portal of Truth gaining the energy from them both. Truth states that he isn't only the sun and earth, but the universe itself. Furthermore Father states the Earth and Sun have their own consciousness.

I've provided scans and arguments for this above, not sure why people are skimming over it.

Because Father orginally thought that's what Truth encompassed, Truth later corrects it by stating that he's one with the Universe. Not to mention The False Portal is endless in size, something based off of The Gate of Truth.

.... you obviously aren't aware of the points of the Gates or the point of Fathet absorbing them. He attempted to absorb God into him, by absorbing the Enegry of the Sun and Earth through their Gates of Truth, thus absorbing God. Thus gaining the energy as stated multiple times. And Father could barely handle that, once he's taken away Truth states that he's not only one with The Earth and Stars, but the universe itself. I.E, he has the energy of the universe, similarly to how Father had the energy of the Sun and Earth. This concept is stated multiple times by Father and literally the point of his plan.

>.... you obviously aren't aware of the points of the Gates or the point of Fathet absorbing them. He attempted to absorb God into him, by absorbing the Enegry of the Sun and Earth through their Gates of Truth, thus absorbing God. Thus gaining the energy as stated multiple times

But the issue is, this isn't a universe level feat.

>And Father could barely handle that, once he's taken away Truth states that he's not only one with The Earth and Stars, but the universe itself. I.E, he has the energy of the universe, similarly to how Father had the energy of the Sun and Earth.

See above. We just went over how encompassing the universe alone doesn't necessarily mean you have the power of the universe at your disposal. In addition, your making a confusing connection here. Father was gaining the energy of the Earth and Sun because he was absorbing them through their Gates of Truth. Truth being the universe doesn't mean there's a Gate of Truth that possesses the energy of the universe like there's one for the Earth and Sun.

According to you, according to several users including an admin agree it's indeed a universal feat.

See above. We just went over how encompassing the universe alone doesn't necessarily mean you have the power of the universe at your disposal. In addition, your making a confusing connection here. Father was gaining the energy of the Earth and Sun because he was absorbing them through their Gates of Truth. Truth being the universe doesn't mean there's a Gate of Truth that possesses the energy of the universe like there's one for the Earth and Sun.

No, you read above, the majority of users here agree with it being a clear cut universal feat. The Gate of the Truth is literally apart of the Truth, his true form lies within the Gate. If Truth is the Universe then the Universe has it's own Gate of Truth. Your leaving out context here, and ignoring how the verse is literally set up. So you'll either have to accept it as is, or make a thread in general about universal feats like these.

>No, you read above, the majority of users here agree with it being a clear cut universal feat.

If the Universe has it's own gate of truth, then you should have just led with that earlier.

However, Low 2-C is still being assumed instead of it being just 3-A. I can accept having "energy of the universe" via the gate, but depending on interpretation and context, Low 2-C can still be wrong. So if we take this interpretation, and treat it as having the energy of the universe, you would still need to prove this is the power of an entire space-time continuum and not just the 3-A energy of the physical universe.

I'm pretty sure containing the enegry of the entire universe is bare minimum High 3-A. And no, Gluttony's False Gate is a realm in between Truth and Reality, and Truth still has access to it as seem with Edward still being able to use alchemy while inside and summoning the Gate.

And nah, having the energy of the whole universe is just 3-A. High 3-A is this:

"Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D area or an infinite number of finite or infinite universes when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time, or more generally any area of comparable size. Large numbers of infinite universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier."

Mostly nothing but dark is selling it short, it's an endless realm with endless darkness as stated mutiple times. The only difference between it and the Gate of Truth is that The False Gate doesn't have nearly the same amount of energy as the Gate of Truth and instead of pure whiteness it's pure darkness.

A river of blood that's enough to flood the flooring, all the destruction over the course of hundreds of years, the fact that when Ed and Ling walked for hours they felt as if the Realm had no edge, which Envy later confirms several times. And the fact that The Truth's Realm is directly tied to him, which is big enough to fit endless pure white.

And that argument doesn't work, Word of Void isn't stated to be infinite.

Your escalating the scope of the feat now. Again, I don't deny its endless, im saying it just doesn't matter. Having an endless realm with very little matter inside of it while most of it is occupied by practically nothing isn't much of a feat.

I used World of Void as an argument because prior to the translations debunking it, this was exactly the same case. A void being infinite, but filled with nothing but nothingness, shouldnt be a feat because there's nothing there to effect.

The Prince of Counters wrote:A river of blood that's enough to flood the flooring, all the destruction over the course of hundreds of years, the fact that when Ed and Ling walked for hours they felt as if the Realm had no edge, which Envy later confirms several times. And the fact that The Truth's Realm is directly tied to him, which is big enough to fit endless pure white.

None of that is enough to prove it's infinite in size. Two humans walking for hours don't cover much of a distance. AFAIK Envy never used the word "infinite" or "endless", he just said there is no exit and no way to get out.

I don't recall Truth's realm being endless either. Plus, someone getting universal AP by saying that he is the universe in a vague manner that can be interpreted as being omnipresent, without any solid evidence is questionable at the very least.

I don't even recall the scope of the verse ever going beyond the sun / our solar system.

Ling states that there's endless Darkness, and it's heavily implied that the realm is bottomless as well, further supported by Envy's statement, it's a Realm that exists between Truth and Reality. It's a false Gate without all the energy the True Gate possesses, and instead of pure whiteness it's Darkness.

By The Gate of Truth being something universal in nature, which would require the energy of the universe to maintain. This is shown with Father only absorbing a small portion of The Truth, and took the energy from them, containing all of it. Truth is also The Universe, which Father wasn't aware of, so Truth would still contain said universe's energy.

This is meaningless. Why should we assume a "universe" isn't the conventional definition of universe? There's no evidence for or against their verse being a solar system and nothing more so we go by the conventional definition.

Ling and Ed aren't a least bit knowledgeable and are limited by their human comprehension. There is no way they travelled such a distance to reach that conclusion, and given their lack of knowledge, their word can't be taken literally.

"further supported by Envy's statement, it's a Realm that exists between Truth and Reality."

That doesn't suggest infinite or endless.

"By The Gate of Truth being something universal in nature, which would require the energy of the universe to maintain."

Citation needed.

"This is shown with Father only absorbing a small portion of The Truth, and took the energy from them, containing all of it."

I don't understand how Father gaining a small portion of truth prove anything regarding Truth having universal AP?

"Truth is also The Universe, which Father wasn't aware of, so Truth would still contain said universe's energy."

Truth being the universe, or the world, or god could just mean he is present everywhere in existence and is the highest form of being. Doesn't really give any idea about his AP.

I didn't say the universe in FMA is limited to the solar system. I meant the scope of the verse power-wise never goes beyond that.

Ling and Ed aren't a least bit knowledgeable and are limited by their human comprehension. There is no way they travelled such a distance to reach that conclusion, and given their lack of knowledge, their word can't be taken literally.

An asinine claim to make, Edward and Ling are indeed very knowledgeable, Edward is a genius Alchemist and has information directly from The Gate of Truth. At best you'd be able to claim Ling isn't knowledgable and considering how smart Ling is in his own right, and the fact that he has The Dragon's Pulse makes this point moot.

That doesn't suggest infinite or endless.

Is stated to be a void of endless Darkness, is stated to have no end or an exit. This seems pretty cut-clear to me.

Citation needed.

Read the previous scans, the enegry of the Gate's require the same amount of energy to maintain it. As seen with Father absorbing the energy of the Sun and Earth via The Gates.

I don't understand how Father gaining a small portion of truth prove anything regarding Truth having universal AP?

Because The Truth is The Gate, Father orginally thought by absorbing just the Sun and Earth he could absorb God, which God later corrects by stating he's the World, Everything, The Universe and it's space.

Truth being the universe, or the world, or god could just mean he is present everywhere in existence and is the highest form of being. Doesn't really give any idea about his AP.

The Truth is the Universe itself and needs a certain amount of energy to sustain it, I've explained this multiple times. The Truth's existence is similar to that of Akasha's from The Nasuverse, although he should get his profile deelted for being a dimension / universe / force rather than an actual person.