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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

Custom? It's a template that can be added to any predator/scavenger/omnivore. The chordevoc or however you spell the bloody thing and halfling seems to meet the prerequisites. Why dock points for that? It looks perfectly legit.

Because unlike other templates, it is significantly closer to custom work than, say, Saint is. The Lycanthropic templates require that you apply them to a critter, then to your character, causing all manner of possibilities for jackups. Further, Lycanthropic was surely not designed with all the myraid options that now exist in mind, causing lots of room for brokenness. It's a template that really is better off avoided, IMO.

Also, because I don't specific precisely what costs what, it's quite possible I just gave a minor deduction for it (which is exactly what I did) and didn't tank the score cause of it.

All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Byerek Runeweaver
Power: 4. power attack and a gish is a proven strategy. no exception here.
Originality: 3. I'd give you a 2 normally because everybody has made a guy like this, but the Suel arcanamach was not what I expected in the first gish build.
Elegance: 2. you used more than 10 books I believe. one so you could trade ride for tumble, which seemed hugely unneccessary, unlike something like bardic knack or riparte. your backstory wasn't very thrilling to me either, though I like to think that I have high standards in that department.
Use of Green Star Adept: 1. this build would have been way better without it. other than an unnatural love of really hard rocks, this character had little flavorwise to do with it.

Starry-Eyes
Power: 3.5- 2 normal, 5 abberation campaign. if you're a beholder and you have this crazy little halfling chasing you down, you might have to overcome your paranoia and hire a dragon or two to take her out. luckily, you wont need a huge one.
Originality: 4.5. this was the most unique I think. the templates really made the flavor work, and the character was just such a unique hero. I love the story it had also. add 3 more pages and I'll buy the novel.
Elegance: 2. custom template is pretty bad. I have to nerf you here. you also used 7 sources. I love the story, but there was enough wrong in the elegance spot for me that I can't let this go with more than a 2, especially after giving Byrek a 1 for far less. EDIT: you're right, it's not a flaw. a trait is fine by me.
Use of Green Star Adept: 4. you did well here. it fit in every way.

Dr. Julius Mordenstein
Power: 3.5. he's good, but if he loses the initiative to Team Cleric...
Originality: 4. I was not expecting a zombie construct with a running inflict combo.
Elegance: 5. 3 classes, a cool story, and no rules blowing. no book list, but you definitely used 3 out of core, probably like 5. if someone can get a list on the books this guy used I'd appreciate. EDIT: upon hearing I pushed him to first with this, can you maybe PM the book list to a nonjudge (any) and have him post it?
Use of Green Star Adept: 2. 8 levels. you used them relatively well I think. he did flavorally seem more dead than construct.

Kaurrek the Eternal
Power: 3.75. power attack. duskblade. looks a little weaker than Byrek to me.
Originality: 2. nothing that really stuck out to me.
Elegance: 2. you dipped fighter.
Use of Green Star Adept: 3. good fit. little was really used to full potential though.

Kao Lei
Power: 3.5. same idea as the duskblade guys, the bard is a nice change.
Originality: 3. you put a lot of time into this one, and it shows, especially with the 2 variants.
Elegance: 2. more dipping. I like the story though. it's really I AM THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!!!!
Use of Green Star Adept: 3.75. I liked how you put it in.

Glorgen
Power: 3.75. a combat warlock focused on Eldritch Glaive. very popular, GSA did well with it.
Originality: 3. really original with the bearded fey, otherwise standard ideas- well built just standard.
Elegance: 4.5. 3 classes. story had potential, needed some more words I think.
Use of Green Star Adept: 3. you toughened up your glaive dwarf a tad and turned him into a flying fortress. I can dig it.

Wu
Power: 5. a wizard will solve you. hopefully.
Originality: 4. wu jen is always a new pathway. really interesting story.
Elegance: 2.5. through a quick scan, at least 6 non core books. only 3 classes, which makes me happier.
Use of Green Star Adept: 2.5. seemed more of a limited summoner, with a little less squish. could have done better with some more spell levels.

Nicolo
Power: 1.5. so many better poisoners available, I'm a fan of playing a straight assassin myself.
Originality: 5. though he isn't really powerful, a hexblade poisoner who poisons you with a body slam is totally awesome and gets my props.
Elegance: 2. 8-9 books. 4 classes is fine... more than my preference, but if that's how you make it work, that's how you make it work. I just wish you pulled it down to 5 books. Nico does make total sense with everything though. always a plus.
Use of Green Star Adept: 5. your main focus was on a class ability. even if it's not totally optimal, you bit the bullet, went for it, and included my favorite Eagles song. so I think you're the only one to get 2 5's from me.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

Thing is... isn't wizard and archivist the same pretty much? Unless you start at 1st level in the game it's likely you'll have to have the DM's permission to add most of your spell/prayer book. Doesn't seem quite right to dock it.

Wizards only get spells on their list, Archivists have it listed on their class features that they can mess stuff up. To get stuff out of Wu Jen's spell list via spell research seems cheesy for me and I wouldn't allow it as a DM, even though DMG has a paragraph saying 'it could be done'.

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

There really should be more than there are. I mean, plenty of mountain fey out there.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

*shrugs*

Looks like they could have applied the template to the Eagle instead and it'd have worked out about the same, and its in the MM 3.5.

It's more a matter of personal distaste and general principle. I'm firmly of the opinion that lycanthropy should not be a template, but a class, of which there are several I've seen that work very well for representing a "beastman" or some such concept.

Still, like I said, I didn't really do much more than a minor nick (under .5 of a point), so I feel fine about disliking it.

All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

Rough panel, looks like 3.75 is the highest total award so far, and the next judge gave the same entry one of the lowest.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

It's more a matter of personal distaste and general principle. I'm firmly of the opinion that lycanthropy should not be a template, but a class, of which there are several I've seen that work very well for representing a "beastman" or some such concept.

I can understand that, it was the 'custom' bit that made me blink *growls at the humanity to*. Every use of that template by this definition would be custom, which means it's meant to be so.

I use it all the time in my Monster Advancement thread and it's always been one of my favorite templates, so ragging on it will get me going

he's good, but if he loses the initiative to Team Cleric...

Then what they gonna do, he's a construct by the end...
Oh, wait, 8th level. Yeah, think he would have done best to keep going with it.

and a flaw.

Looks like its a Trait actually, which is very different than a Flaw.

you used more than 10 books I believe.

Do you judges tend to rate low on multiple sources? I can understand if they were essential to the build, but I know I myself always scour a dozen or three books to pick out the perfect stuff to fit the fluff. Most of the time it has nothing to do with the power.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

Do you judges tend to rate low on multiple sources? I can understand if they were essential to the build, but I know I myself always scour a dozen or three books to pick out the perfect stuff to fit the fluff. Most of the time it has nothing to do with the power.

I was wondering about this. If I knew I was gonna get hit SO freakin hard for this, I could have dialed it back to like, 4 books, but one of the main points of optimization is to creatively combine a bunch of little things from multiple sources in a way that is stronger than the sum of the parts.

I'm wondering if elegance was mistaken for simplicity. Duskblade20 is a simple gish. Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8 is an elegant gish. Its classes flow together in a streamlined fasion and it achieves strength that the simple the Duskblade can't compete with. Doesn't mean that the Duskblade is bad, just simple. This is an OPTIMIZATION exercise right?

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Concerning books, no, I don't take that into account. I don't care, as long as you don't use 2nd/3rd party material, such as Dragon Magazine, Dragonlance, AEG, Green Ronin, etc. Hell, you can use Dragon Compendium if you'd like (and I'd be SO HAPPY if someone did).

To use the Iron Chef analogy, sometimes, an ingredient with a very distinctive taste comes from some backwater no one's ever heard of. Doesn't make it taste worse.

Last edited by arguskos; 2010-07-10 at 09:12 PM.

All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by Keld Denar

I was wondering about this. If I knew I was gonna get hit SO freakin hard for this, I could have dialed it back to like, 4 books, but one of the main points of optimization is to creatively combine a bunch of little things from multiple sources in a way that is stronger than the sum of the parts.

I'm wondering if elegance was mistaken for simplicity. Duskblade20 is a simple gish. Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8 is an elegant gish. Its classes flow together in a streamlined fasion and it achieves strength that the simple the Duskblade can't compete with. Doesn't mean that the Duskblade is bad, just simple. This is an OPTIMIZATION exercise right?

Elegance is the most nebulous and changing category, as my questions in the last contest might indicate. Elegance can appear to be directly at odds with Originality, depending on which contest and which judges one observes. This is in NO WAY meant as a disparagement against any of those who have volunteered to judge, past or present.

DISCLAIMER: HYPERBOLE FOR EMPHASIS
It can sometimes seem as if Stalwart Sorcerer 10/GSA 10 might be a particular judge's idea of a 5 for Elegance, while getting a 1 for Originality from one or more judge - possibly even the one(s) who would rate it a 5 on Elegance. Conversely, Evoker 3/Master Specialist 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Mindbender 1/Sandshaper 1/GSA 9 would, possibly, get a 1 on Elegance even if it managed a 4 or 5 on Power and a 3 or 4 on originality.

It's a very difficult balancing act, and something of a guessing game on the part of the contestants.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

I for one have no problem with the comments and scores that judges make. They are entitled to their opinion, just as I am. Constructive criticism can be a great form of feedback. I am not a special snowflake.

Elegance is subjective, as are many of the categories. The point of having so many judges is to gain an 'average' value from the opinions of many. It may not be perfect, but it prevents one judgement from determining the competion. It presents a better picture of the functionality of a build as a whole IMHO.

I for one, appreciate their time and effort. This is not a suck-up, I doubt you know my entry. Keep up the good work.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Oh, it's very interesting. And if you ever played Planescape: Torment, you'll love it even more!

Huh, that is a fascinating PrC. It'd be especially good for this contest as it's so utterly open to varying builds. Its capstone kind of sucks, but very flavorful.

I very much encourage it for a future contest.

I for one have no problem with the comments and scores that judges make. They are entitled to their opinion, just as I am. Constructive criticism can be a great form of feedback. I am not a special snowflake.

Me neither, just a very pointy one. I'll debate criticism, but don't take offense at it. 99% of the time anyways. There are a few things I've made where individuals can see nothing good about it and border on trolling.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

I haven't gotten a chance to give a good look at the builds yet, but skimming looks impressive so far. I should be able to sit down in score Monday and/or Tuesday, and thus should my scores posted Wednesday at the latest.

Thanks you to all the contestants for completing.

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Yea, it was really hard to fit GSA in in a way that wouldn't be better filled by...ANYTHING else, and the 10th level actually makes your character WORSE rather than better. If you take the 10th level, you lose on power, if you don't, most of the judges so far have been brutal on use-of.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

I like the flavor of Green Star Adept. It just is horrible from a mechanical viewpoint. Use of the Secret Ingrediant is difficult. I must have run through three different builds, including one that I calculated to 15th level and thought it was a really good build before I realized I forgot to add any levels of GSA. Yeah. Secret Ingrediant is Useless. Or at the very least, use-impaired.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Well, in a 1 to 5 scale, 2 or 3 should be the average score anyway.

Fair enough viewpoint, but a counterpoint could be that, when none of the builds get even a 4 on 'Use of Secret Ingredient', it reads as if a better use was perceived and/or expected by the judges. Even if a given PrC sucks, it should be possible to get maximal use from it, relative to its merits. If it's not actually possible to get a 5 in a given category, that could be seen as indicating a problem with the scale.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Fair enough viewpoint, but a counterpoint could be that, when none of the builds get even a 4 on 'Use of Secret Ingredient', it reads as if a better use was perceived and/or expected by the judges. Even if a given PrC sucks, it should be possible to get maximal use from it, relative to its merits. If it's not actually possible to get a 5 in a given category, that could be seen as indicating a problem with the scale.

Agreed. I expected more use of GSA's abilities, specially since I was working with a build of my own for this earlier.

Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII

In case you're curious, my idea was to skip the obvious Duskblade etc. and go with a straight caster. I was thinking of a human Conjurer 6/Ruathar 1/Green Star Adept 10/Conjurer +2.

The character's schtick was supposed to be: "I cast Cloudkill centered on myself!!!1!"

The character was supposed to live in the Underdark with the sufferance of the Drow (Ruathar isn't picky about the subtype of elf, right?) where her darkvision would give her a potential advantage and specialize in various cloud spells she herself and her potential undead/construct minions were immune to on the idea that indiscriminate effects tend to be stronger. She would also use Listening Lorecall when needed and invest in the Listen skill so she wouldn't get blinded by her own Solid Fogs and the like.

When she was going to have reached level 10 of Green Star Adept she would have largely lied down for a while and done spell research in new cloud spells, which is why I docked her one level of XP. Meanwhile she would have aged into Venerable or past that and gained a free +3 to all mental stats.

I was going to call her punnily Stargyria. (Google argyria if you don't get it.)

Since new spells are heavily DM-dependant, I was only going to suggest general ideas for spells, like
- Stargyria's Greater Cloudkill
- Stargyria's Obedient Poison Cloud (moves as directed, hits a stat like Int)
- Stargyria's Energy Drain Cloud
- Stargyria's Zone of Calm (counter to those pesky winds that disperse clouds)

Those clouds could be layered upon each other, forcing people trying to melee her save against several things per round while her Green Star Adept defenses enable her to survive melee better than the typical wizard. Her save DCs should be level-appropriate too.

Her weakness would have been that she could only cast up to seventh level spells due to the lost caster levels and the hit to dexterity would have made her avoid rays. On the other hand, she would have been likely to hit with melee touch attacks for what's that worth. But well, at least she would have taken good use of Green Star Adept and perhaps been elegant too.