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Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Hello all. Now, I'm a great fan of the Disciple of ___ classes, but I noticed that there wasn't one for Bel, Belial/Fierna, Levistus, or the Hag Countess/Glasya. So I decided to either modify other PrCs and rebuild, or to create from whole cloth. This is one of the latter. I had a hard time designing this, so be extra rippy and shreddy. I decided after much thought, that a class that split the two rulers of Phlegethon would be suitable. You worship one you worship both for the most part. But the I got to thinking . . . the picture in BoVD of these two is . . . unsavoury. I leave it to the curious to look it up, I won't post it. But suffice it to say, Belial appears to be diggin his claws into Fierna in the picture, and she doesn't seem to mind. So, in response to that, I decided to dust off two little used qualities from the BoVD, sadism and masochism, and use them here.

Disciple of Belial/Fierna

Requirements
To qualify to become a disciple of Belial/Fierna, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful evil.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Brand of the Nine Hells (Belial/Fierna), Evil Brand, Sacrificial Mastery
Spells: Must be able to cast 3rd level spells
Special: Must have convinced a loved one to join the cult of Belial, and together the two must sacrifice a captive in boiling oil.

Path of Belial: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who chooses the path of Belial is a disciple of Belial. A disciple of Belial knows how to use his virility to cause enemies (or allies) to become more beastly and compliant. If a disciple of Belial can cause a humanoid target to engage in an act of passion (kissing, being intimate, etc.) the target must make a Will save (DC 10+discipleís class level+Cha modifier) or become subject to a touch of idiocy from the disciple of Belial. The disciple can accomplish this act of passion either through a Bluff or Diplomacy check (for Bluff, the check is resolved normally in regards to immediate danger to target, etc. For Diplomacy, the check must make the target helpful) or through pinning a grappled opponent. Ability damage heals at a rate of one point for each score each hour instead of as normal.

Path of Fierna: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who chooses the path of Fierna is a disciple of Fierna. A disciple of Fierna knows how to use his sensuality to manipulate both his enemies and allies, causing both to become so turned around they do things they normally wouldnít. If a disciple of Fierna can cause a humanoid target to engage in an act of passion (kissing, being intimate, etc.) the target must make a Will save (DC 10+discipleís class level+Cha modifier) or become subject to a suggestion from the disciple of Fierna. The disciple can accomplish this act of passion either through a Bluff or Diplomacy check (for Bluff, the check is resolved normally in regards to immediate danger to target, etc. For Diplomacy, the check must make the target helpful) or through pinning a grappled opponent. The target believes this suggestion was his own idea, and acts accordingly.

Mark of Phlegethos: Whenever a disciple of Belial/Fierna takes or deals damage, he gains one pleasure point. A single pleasure point can be spent to gain a +4 bonus on a single roll or check, and accumulated pleasure points disappear at the end of an encounter.

Dark Speech: At 3rd level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna gains the ability to speak the ancient language of the lower planes. The disciple gains the Dark Speech feat as a bonus feat.

Sudden Corrupt Spell: Once per day, a 4th level disciple of Belial/Fierna can modify a spell that he casts that deals hit point damage so that half of the damage results from unholy energy, and not from any resistible energy source. A corrupted fireball would deal half damage to a creature immune to fire, because half the damage is not fire.

Acolyte of Belial: When a 5th level disciple of Belial uses his Path of Belial ability and deal ability damage to a targetís mental scores, if he deals enough to reduce one or more of the targetís mental scores to 1, the target heals all damage to his mental ability scores, now all divination spells targeted at the disciple of Belial are redirected to the discipleís target (the target makes the saving throws, and their SR applies instead of the discipleís). For instance, if a disciple of Belial reduces a lawful good paladin to 1 Intelligence, that paladin regains all damaged intelligence but now the disciple of Belial detects as lawful good, and the disciple of Belialís thoughts appear to be the paladinís. This misdirection lasts for one day per disciple of Belial level and works over any distance as long as the disciple and his target are on the same plane. The disciple can only have one such target at a time.

Acolyte of Fierna: Whenever a 5th level disciple of Fierna is targeted by a pain-based spell (such as the symbol of pain, thousand needles, wrack) or is tortured, the effects are negated and the disciple instead heals an amount of damage equal to 5 x the spell level (or 5 points per round of torture). This healing doesnít occur when a spell simply deals damage, but only when pain causes penalties on rolls or status effects, though the healing might offset the damage done.

Dark Whispers: At 6th level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna can saturate the air with fell voices, warping and twisting reality with words so hateful and foul that mortal minds cannot comprehend them. As a use of Dark Speech, the disciple can take 1 point of constitution damage in order to force everyone within 30ft to make a Will save (DC 10+the disciple of Belial/Fiernaís class level+Cha modifier) or become confused for 1d4 rounds.

Priest of Phlegethos: A 7th level disciple of Belial/Fierna who prepares spells can convert any spell prepared into a [fire] spell of the same level when casting. A spontaneous caster gains a +2 to caster level when casting fire spells.

Sudden Violate Spell: Once per day, an 8th level disciple of Belial/Fierna can modify a spell that he casts that deals hit point damage so that half of the damage results from vile energy, and not from any resistible energy source. A violated fireball would deal half damage to a creature immune to fire, because half the damage is not fire. Also, vile damage cannot be healed unless the healing spell is cast within a consecrated or hallowed area.

Filthy Outburst: At 9th level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna knows words of Dark Speech so foul and wretched that they damage the body and weaken the fabric of the mind and soul. As a use of Dark Speech, the disciple can take 1d6 points of constitution damage in order to force everyone within 60ft to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+the disciple of Belial/Fiernaís class level+Cha modifier) or become deafened for 1 minute and take a -2 penalty to saves against evil spells and abilities for the same amount of time.

Ranseur of Belial: When a 10th level disciple of Belial succeeds on an Intimidate check, he can opt to forgo the usual effects in order to gain a ďdominanceĒ token to use against the target of the Intimidate check. Dominance tokens are tallied separately for each opponent intimidated by the disciple, and these tokens last for one hour. A disciple of Belial can spend at least one virility token to charm an opponent. The target must succeed on a Will save to resist (DC 10+disciple of Belialís class level+Cha modifier+2 per each token spent after the first) and the effect lasts for one hour. If he so wishes, the disciple can spend three at least three tokens to dominate the target instead, but extra tokens used to increase the DC of the save only count after the first three instead of the first one.

Flame of Fierna: When a disciple of Fierna succeeds on a saving throw to resist a fear effect or a level check to resist an Intimidate check, the disciple can still feign subservience to the caster/intimidator. With a successful Bluff or Diplomacy check (DC =targetís Sense Motive check or Will save, targetís choice), the disciple successfully convinces the target he is terrified of the target, and is now in the targetís power, though the opposite is true. The target is now dominated for one hour.

And that's part four of my four part project. Dig your claws into this!

Last edited by Sir_Chivalry; 2010-03-19 at 12:11 AM.

Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

"One of us is tender,
One of us is not,
One of us takes vengeance,
All four tied in a knot"

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Hello all. Now, I'm a great fan of the Disciple of ___ classes, but I noticed that there wasn't one for Bel, Belial/Fierna, Levistus, or the Hag Countess/Glasya. So I decided to either modify other PrCs and rebuild, or to create from whole cloth. This is one of the latter. I had a hard time designing this, so be extra rippy and shreddy. I decided after much thought, that a class that split the two rulers of Phlegethon would be suitable. You worship one you worship both for the most part. But the I got to thinking . . . the picture in BoVD of these two is . . . unsavoury. I leave it to the curious to look it up, I won't post it. But suffice it to say, Belial appears to be diggin his claws into Fierna in the picture, and she doesn't seem to mind. So, in response to that, I decided to dust off two little used qualities from the BoVD, sadism and masochism, and use them here.

Disciple of Belial/Fierna

Requirements
To qualify to become a disciple of Belial/Fierna, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Disciple of Darkness, Evil Brand, Sacrificial Mastery
Spells: Must be able to cast 3rd level spells
Special: Must have convinced a loved one to join the cult of Belial, and together the two must sacrifice a captive in boiling oil.

Path of Belial: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who chooses the path of Belial is a disciple of Belial. A disciple of Belial revels in causing pain and agony to others, and becomes more efficient at dealing pain the more pain he deals. For each round that a disciple of Belial deals his character level in damage, whether by weapon or spell, he gains a circumstance bonus on attack, damage, skill checks and saving throws for the next round equal half his class level rounded up.

Path of Fierna: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who chooses the path of Fierna is a disciple of Fierna. A disciple of Fierna delights in the sensations and pleasures of pain, seeking to always be under its enhancing and focusing influence. For each round that a disciple of Fierna takes his character level in damage, whether by weapon or spell, he gains a circumstance bonus on attack, damage, skill checks and saving throws for the next round equal half his class level rounded up. He also gains a +4 bonus on saves against pain effects (such as symbol of pain)

Dark Speech: At 3rd level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna gains the ability to speak the ancient language of the lower planes. The disciple gains the Dark Speech feat as a bonus feat.

Sudden Corrupt Spell: Once per day, a 4th level disciple of Belial/Fierna can modify a spell that he casts that deals hit point damage so that half of the damage results from unholy energy, and not from any resistible energy source. A corrupted fireball would deal half damage to a creature immune to fire, because half the damage is not fire.

Acolyte of Belial: A 5th level disciple of Belial is permanently under the effects of a sadism spell, meaning that in addition to the effects of Path of Belial, for every 10 points of damage a disciple of Belial deals in a round, he gains a +1 luck bonus to attacks, skill checks and saving throws in the next round. Also, the disciple of Belial gains the ability to cast spiritual weapon once per day as a caster of his class level. This weapon takes the shape of a two-pronged ranseur, and in place of using his wisdom, a disciple uses his primary casting ability score (Int for Wizards, Wis for Clerics and Druids, Cha for Sorcerers) to determine the bonus to attack.

Acolyte of Fierna: A 5th level disciple of Fierna is permanently under the effects of a masochism spell, meaning that in addition to the effects of Path of Fiernal, for every 10 points of damage a disciple of Belial takes in a round, he gains a +1 luck bonus to attacks, skill checks and saving throws in the next round. Also, the disciple of Fierna gains the ability to cast flame blade once per day as a caster of his class level.

Dark Whispers: At 6th level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna can saturate the air with fell voices, warping and twisting reality with words for hateful and foul that mortal minds cannot comprehend them. As a use of Dark Speech, the disciple can take 1 point of constitution damage in order to force everyone within 30ft to make a Will save (DC 10+half the disciple of Belial/Fiernaís class level+Cha modifier) or become confused for 1d4 rounds.

Priest of Phlegethos: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who prepares spells can convert any spell prepared into a [fire] spell of the same level when casting. A spontaneous caster gains a +2 to caster level when casting fire spells.

Sudden Violate Spell: Once per day, an 8th level disciple of Belial/Fierna can modify a spell that he casts that deals hit point damage so that half of the damage results from vile energy, and not from any resistible energy source. A violated fireball would deal half damage to a creature immune to fire, because half the damage is not fire. Also, vile damage cannot be healed unless the healing spell is cast within a consecrated or hallowed area.

Filthy Outburst: At 9th level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna knows words of Dark Speech so foul and wretched that they damage the body and weaken the fabric of the mind and soul. As a use of Dark Speech, the disciple can take 1d6 points of constitution damage in order to force everyone within 60ft to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+half the disciple of Belial/Fiernaís class level+Cha modifier) or become deafened for 1 minute and take a -2 penalty to saves against evil spells and abilities for the same amount of time.

Ranseur of Belial: As a swift action, a 10th level disciple of Belial can sacrifice a spell prepared (if he prepares spells) or a daily spell slot (if he spontaneously casts) in order to gain a +10 bonus to hit point damage on spells cast by the disciple for a number of rounds equal to the level of spell or spell slot sacrificed.

Flame of Fierna: As a swift action, a 10th level disciple of Fierna can sacrifice a spell prepared (if he prepares spells) or a daily spell slot (if he spontaneously casts) in order to gain fast healing 10 for a number of rounds equal to the level of spell or spell slot sacrificed.

And that's part four of my four part project. Dig your claws into this!

Well, if for no other reason than because it increases spells this is your only contribution so far that you haven't managed to underpower. Really the only problems I see so far:
1. You gain Class Ability at 2nd level.
2. In several places you have DC 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Charisma Modifier. This should really be DC 10 + Class Level + Charisma Modifier.
3. Belial seems more powerful than Fierna until 10th level, at which point the ability to sacrifice a spell slot to heal spell slot x 10 hit points becomes pretty awesome assuming arcane entry, but not really broken in any way.
4. The only abusable ability is the 5th level one. It's super easy to get ludicrous saves with it. I don't have my BoVD or Fiendish Codex or wherever the Sadism/Masochism spells come from, but do they have limits to the bonuses they can grant? I'm not sure it's broken, I'll have to think about it.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Priest of Phlegethos: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who prepares spells can convert any spell prepared into a [fire] spell of the same level when casting. A spontaneous caster gains a +2 to caster level when casting fire spells.

Wait, every spell you cast, you cast at +2 caster level? That's a nice ability, not exactly too powerful, but seems odd coming from a prestige class.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Wait, every spell you cast, you cast at +2 caster level? That's a nice ability, not exactly too powerful, but seems odd coming from a prestige class.

Prepared casters can convert spells into [Fire] spells like clerics do with cure/inflict. Spontaneous ones get +2 CL on [Fire] spells instead.

Pretty sure that's what this means.

Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild

Originally Posted by The Giant

Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.

Originally Posted by The Giant

No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Path of Belial/Fierna: I'm assuming you mean each round they deal/take at least their character level in damage, they gain the benefits you listed, not each round they deal or take exactly their character level in damage.

Giving them permanent Sadism/Masochism is really, really powerful. Those spells, especially when you combine them, get brokenly powerful fast. Perhaps simply give them the appropriate spell as a SLA once or twice a day instead, or make it so that they cannot benefit from the other spell (Fierna's acolytes can only benefit from Masochism, while Belial's can only benefit from Sadism) to tone down the power a bit. I love the flavor of this ability, though; it fits perfectly.

For the Sudden Metamagic abilities you give them, you want it to only be 1/day, like the other Sudden Metamagic feats, right?

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Well, if for no other reason than because it increases spells this is your only contribution so far that you haven't managed to underpower. Really the only problems I see so far:
1. You gain Class Ability at 2nd level.

FUDGEMONKEYS!!! That's what I get for staying up late I guess. Okay, so I need to insert an ability or two, perhaps one of those Path of . . . abilitys to make Fierna more attractive at low levels (like that's a challenge.)

3. Belial seems more powerful than Fierna until 10th level, at which point the ability to sacrifice a spell slot to heal spell slot x 10 hit points becomes pretty awesome assuming arcane entry, but not really broken in any way.

So keep it the way it is?

4. The only abusable ability is the 5th level one. It's super easy to get ludicrous saves with it. I don't have my BoVD or Fiendish Codex or wherever the Sadism/Masochism spells come from, but do they have limits to the bonuses they can grant? I'm not sure it's broken, I'll have to think about it.

I think I'm going to change it to three times per day the disciple can use that spell, as they don't have caps besides the fact that the boni fade after one round.

dawnsolara- fixed the wording in Path of Belial/Fierna. The Sudden Metamagics do stay once per day in their description. I'll tone down the sadism and masochism spells.

Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

"One of us is tender,
One of us is not,
One of us takes vengeance,
All four tied in a knot"

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Okay, it all pretty much looks good now. An ability at 2nd level would be nice, and there is this:

Originally Posted by Sir Chivalry

Three times per day, a 5th level disciple of Fierna is able to cast the masochism spell as a spell-like ability (caster level equal class level), meaning that in addition to the effects of Path of Fiernal, for every 10 points of damage a disciple of Belial takes in a round, he gains a +1 luck bonus to attacks, skill checks and saving throws in the next round. Also, the disciple of Fierna gains the ability to cast flame blade once per day as a caster of his class level.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Okay...you wanted harsh.

There is very little "cultist" either in the cult leader format of Beliel or the power behind the throne are of Fierna.

I consider it bad policy to include both spells per level and a feature at every level [i know 2 is blank but whatever]. No amount of skwarking will convince me that it is good design. I'd skip progression on levels that give powerful upgrades.

You've got a lot of powers that give you combat benefits. There's no manipulation going on here and this gives it a somewhat White Wolf view of sex [sex = leather + explosions], which is a shame in contrast to the actual horror of Vile feats and so forth.

Level one power is less potent than the existing feat Mark of PhleghetosFiendish Codex 2 and the feat is simple to use too. I'd simply use that in place of complication.

The acolyte power is similarly meh in its application, considering the level you'll be at. You're apparently a full blooded caster so the ability to gain a limited bonus for a brief time is somewhat pointless. Sad but true, not really a spell worth casting on yourself.

It becomes mostly needless if you use Mark of Phleghetos anyway. Maybe you could use Brand of Evil at first level and Mark of Phleghetos at 4th instead.

The fire magic boost makes little or no sense as a dual track. Fierna has fire based powers, it is true, though significantly less ability than Mephistophiles, while Beliel is entirely devoted to manipulation magics in his set of powers. I'd either split it up to the two paths or ignore it because it frankly doesn't fit the characters of either all that well.

The speaking Profanities...good a place for it as any i suppose. I would've assumed that one of the other dukes would be more deserving of it but the all seem to hold their tongues rather well. I suppose it's more to do with the Law aspect of hell holding insults in check on a direct level.

Focusing on damage with the secondary spellcasting things is...out of place. That's Mephistophile's, Bel or maybe Mammon's thing. Here, we're talking hidden spells, ones that are irrisistable when in an embrace, contagious ones that cause the cult to spread and lust for the Disciple to grow...

I have no strong opinion on the capstone. That should probably be offensive, simply because that's easier to write and harder to abuse.

Possible features:

For Fierna: The ability to make Suggestions that are remembered as the character's own during congress.

- Healing as a result of pain based effects

- The ability to riposte against Fear and Intimidate effects so that the opponent becomes Charmed as a result of feelings of sexual dominance.
For Belial: Deal Wisdom damage via congress as the submissive loses any will or desire to resist.

Conclusion: Overall, i think it's a well thought out and synergistic class that's too powerful and completely missed it's original design brief. No mystique, no corruption, no excess even, beyond turning your opponent a slightly darker shade of ash.

Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive

Okay...you wanted harsh.

There is very little "cultist" either in the cult leader format of Beliel or the power behind the throne are of Fierna.

I consider it bad policy to include both spells per level and a feature at every level [i know 2 is blank but whatever]. No amount of skwarking will convince me that it is good design. I'd skip progression on levels that give powerful upgrades.

You've got a lot of powers that give you combat benefits. There's no manipulation going on here and this gives it a somewhat White Wolf view of sex [sex = leather + explosions], which is a shame in contrast to the actual horror of Vile feats and so forth.

Level one power is less potent than the existing feat Mark of PhleghetosFiendish Codex 2 and the feat is simple to use too. I'd simply use that in place of complication.

The acolyte power is similarly meh in its application, considering the level you'll be at. You're apparently a full blooded caster so the ability to gain a limited bonus for a brief time is somewhat pointless. Sad but true, not really a spell worth casting on yourself.

It becomes mostly needless if you use Mark of Phleghetos anyway. Maybe you could use Brand of Evil at first level and Mark of Phleghetos at 4th instead.

The fire magic boost makes little or no sense as a dual track. Fierna has fire based powers, it is true, though significantly less ability than Mephistophiles, while Beliel is entirely devoted to manipulation magics in his set of powers. I'd either split it up to the two paths or ignore it because it frankly doesn't fit the characters of either all that well.

The speaking Profanities...good a place for it as any i suppose. I would've assumed that one of the other dukes would be more deserving of it but the all seem to hold their tongues rather well. I suppose it's more to do with the Law aspect of hell holding insults in check on a direct level.

Focusing on damage with the secondary spellcasting things is...out of place. That's Mephistophile's, Bel or maybe Mammon's thing. Here, we're talking hidden spells, ones that are irrisistable when in an embrace, contagious ones that cause the cult to spread and lust for the Disciple to grow...

I have no strong opinion on the capstone. That should probably be offensive, simply because that's easier to write and harder to abuse.

Possible features:

For Fierna: The ability to make Suggestions that are remembered as the character's own during congress.

- Healing as a result of pain based effects

- The ability to riposte against Fear and Intimidate effects so that the opponent becomes Charmed as a result of feelings of sexual dominance.
For Belial: Deal Wisdom damage via congress as the submissive loses any will or desire to resist.

Conclusion: Overall, i think it's a well thought out and synergistic class that's too powerful and completely missed it's original design brief. No mystique, no corruption, no excess even, beyond turning your opponent a slightly darker shade of ash.

Guy has a point with flavor, thing is I am better at checking for balance than flavor sot to me the flavor looks fine, but it's true the class doesn't really have that cultist feel. I completely disagree with him on balance, none of the abilities gained here can't be replicated with a spell or feat. Going into this class instead of straight wizard loses you two bonus feats and your familiar progression (oh no we don't want that) and also requires you to take some rather unoptimized feats, which balances out the abilities you gain. Really this class is balanced with a class like Loremaster.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive

Okay...you wanted harsh.

There is very little "cultist" either in the cult leader format of Beliel or the power behind the throne are of Fierna.

I consider it bad policy to include both spells per level and a feature at every level [i know 2 is blank but whatever]. No amount of skwarking will convince me that it is good design. I'd skip progression on levels that give powerful upgrades.

You've got a lot of powers that give you combat benefits. There's no manipulation going on here and this gives it a somewhat White Wolf view of sex [sex = leather + explosions], which is a shame in contrast to the actual horror of Vile feats and so forth.

Level one power is less potent than the existing feat Mark of PhleghetosFiendish Codex 2 and the feat is simple to use too. I'd simply use that in place of complication.

The acolyte power is similarly meh in its application, considering the level you'll be at. You're apparently a full blooded caster so the ability to gain a limited bonus for a brief time is somewhat pointless. Sad but true, not really a spell worth casting on yourself.

It becomes mostly needless if you use Mark of Phleghetos anyway. Maybe you could use Brand of Evil at first level and Mark of Phleghetos at 4th instead.

The fire magic boost makes little or no sense as a dual track. Fierna has fire based powers, it is true, though significantly less ability than Mephistophiles, while Beliel is entirely devoted to manipulation magics in his set of powers. I'd either split it up to the two paths or ignore it because it frankly doesn't fit the characters of either all that well.

The speaking Profanities...good a place for it as any i suppose. I would've assumed that one of the other dukes would be more deserving of it but the all seem to hold their tongues rather well. I suppose it's more to do with the Law aspect of hell holding insults in check on a direct level.

Focusing on damage with the secondary spellcasting things is...out of place. That's Mephistophile's, Bel or maybe Mammon's thing. Here, we're talking hidden spells, ones that are irrisistable when in an embrace, contagious ones that cause the cult to spread and lust for the Disciple to grow...

I have no strong opinion on the capstone. That should probably be offensive, simply because that's easier to write and harder to abuse.

Possible features:

For Fierna: The ability to make Suggestions that are remembered as the character's own during congress.

- Healing as a result of pain based effects

- The ability to riposte against Fear and Intimidate effects so that the opponent becomes Charmed as a result of feelings of sexual dominance.
For Belial: Deal Wisdom damage via congress as the submissive loses any will or desire to resist.

Conclusion: Overall, i think it's a well thought out and synergistic class that's too powerful and completely missed it's original design brief. No mystique, no corruption, no excess even, beyond turning your opponent a slightly darker shade of ash.

Indeed I did want harsh. Okay I'm going to start by saying that since I'll now be attempting to redux the other five, I'm going to make it a point to include the Mark of (layer) feat in each disciple's class. Might make for a better flavour. I'm lucky that I've got a flavour guy (mulletmanalive) and a crunch guy (drolyt). You always need those two guys whne making something.

Slight argument that leads to further modification

Spoiler

Show

I don't see ANYTHING cultisty about Disciple of Mammon, Dispater or Mephistopholes. All three of those classes just kill/steal from things. Probably if I'm reduxing, I'll rewrite them to be more cultisty.

At first I was a bit wary of having anything overtly sexual about the class, but your right. These are the two definitive sexual beings of Baator. Bring me my raunch dressing!

As for fire not making sense, their layer is the fire dominant layer, and Belial, at least in BoVD which is the more powerful of the two versions, has three fire themed SLAs (hellfire storm, produce flame, wall of fire) comparable to his daughter's six (Belials SLAs plus fireball, fire shield and flame blade). I see looking at the FCII that his aspect doesn't have fire based SLAs. So I'm going to keep the fire thing.

The Dark Speech thing was something I wanted to give this class to be more unique (though any other character can do it with three feats) from the other disciples. I see Belial and Fierna as perverse in most ways, not just sexually but that they might be the least restrained of the archdukes.

I disagree with the no spellcasting advancement plus class feature stance. Why would a spellcaster take this class if it didn't advance their casting?

Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

"One of us is tender,
One of us is not,
One of us takes vengeance,
All four tied in a knot"

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

I never said that spellcasting advancement is a bad thing, just a 10/10 of you're giving out class features at every level. I've played in all kinds of games and it's never been being weaker that's made me feel underpowered or useless so much as other players being self important. Thus, I honestly don't care if a class is powerful, so much as whether it has a really good angle to play from in the roleplaying sections.

I'm not planning on budging from the "'more is better' is bad design in a nutshell" stance but i'm happy enough to back down if there is a decent play reason other than "it would be underpowered otherwise" put on the table for each case.

7-8/10 spellcasting and i wouldn't blink, just not a 10/10, but i'm not really clear why it was a specifically spellcasting prestige class anyway. The musty self importance inherent in a lot of spellcasting class concepts doesn't lend itself well to depravity [shrug].

Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive

I never said that spellcasting advancement is a bad thing, just a 10/10 of you're giving out class features at every level. I've played in all kinds of games and it's never been being weaker that's made me feel underpowered or useless so much as other players being self important. Thus, I honestly don't care if a class is powerful, so much as whether it has a really good angle to play from in the roleplaying sections.

I'm not planning on budging from the "'more is better' is bad design in a nutshell" stance but i'm happy enough to back down if there is a decent play reason other than "it would be underpowered otherwise" put on the table for each case.

7-8/10 spellcasting and i wouldn't blink, just not a 10/10, but i'm not really clear why it was a specifically spellcasting prestige class anyway. The musty self importance inherent in a lot of spellcasting class concepts doesn't lend itself well to depravity [shrug].

Quite aside from whether a Belial/Fierna PRC should be spellcaster, I have to disagree with you on the balance issue of 10 spellcasting levels + class abilities. None of the classes abilities are very powerful except for a couple that duplicate spells the character could already cast by that level. Given three suboptimal feats for entry and the lack of bonus feats or familiar progression it's not a great trade off. Loremaster is about equal and Mage of the Arcane Order or Archmage are obviously superior. Then there's cheese like IotSV. I think this class is perfectly balanced against straight wizard or wizard/loremaster, weak against something like wizard/mage of the arcane order/archmage, pathetic against wizard/IotSV/Incantatrix.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive

I never said that spellcasting advancement is a bad thing, just a 10/10 of you're giving out class features at every level. I've played in all kinds of games and it's never been being weaker that's made me feel underpowered or useless so much as other players being self important. Thus, I honestly don't care if a class is powerful, so much as whether it has a really good angle to play from in the roleplaying sections.

I'm not planning on budging from the "'more is better' is bad design in a nutshell" stance but i'm happy enough to back down if there is a decent play reason other than "it would be underpowered otherwise" put on the table for each case.

7-8/10 spellcasting and i wouldn't blink, just not a 10/10, but i'm not really clear why it was a specifically spellcasting prestige class anyway. The musty self importance inherent in a lot of spellcasting class concepts doesn't lend itself well to depravity [shrug].

Mainly, I built the class based on the knowledge that none of the other disciples are full casting classes. Only two, IF you count this one, have any spellcasting advancement at all. Of the nine, the ones most associated with spellcasting are Asmodeus, Mephistopholes and Belial. I'll admit Glasya and Baalzebul hit that mark too, but I just thought, why can arcane and divine spellcasters get in on the fun without losing caster levels?

You could ask the same question about narrow focus about disciple of Dispater. Why is it a warrior class? Dispater, if taken purely as himself, seems more of a spellcaster, the sort to set up contingencies and wait things out. Then again, if we purely look at archfiends in general, you could make the argument for any class and have it stick. Most are better spellcasters, better warriors and better skill monkeys than any mortal.

For a note, I'm going to go with what Drolyt says about power and game balance, as those are aims of homebrewing, creating playable classes with balanced mechanics. On the other hand, your advice and ideas so far have been invaluable to me, and I definitely will be modifying the class as to some of your suggestions once I've time. And your suggestions are the other aim of homebrewing, creating interesting things that enrich the campaign world. To counter your "'more is better' is bad design" argument, I subscribe to the "dead levels are BORING" argument, which is to say even giving just a small flavourful ability at each level makes a class more interesting. It's not about power, it's about a balance of fluff and crunch.

On a side note, have you checked out Disciple of Glasya or Disciple of Levistus?

Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

"One of us is tender,
One of us is not,
One of us takes vengeance,
All four tied in a knot"

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Sorry Drolyt; if you reread the previous post, you'll notice that I don't consider "so-and-so is more powerful" a valid point of argument.

I'll discuss points individually but basing policy around "I can do this if my GM doesn't mind me dictating his game to him" is not something i'm willing to do. And yes, that's how i hear the crux of your previous post.

No, i'm not wrong, just different, old-school and stubborn as hell.

OP: I agree dead levels are boring. I just don't agree that any level with spellcasting on it can be called a Dead Level without me grinning at you.

Anyway, I duly await the next evil-tastic iteration of the class. Roll on Sir Chivalry!

Last edited by Mulletmanalive; 2010-02-25 at 02:50 PM.

Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive

Sorry Drolyt; if you reread the previous post, you'll notice that I don't consider "so-and-so is more powerful" a valid point of argument.

I'll discuss points individually but basing policy around "I can do this if my GM doesn't mind me dictating his game to him" is not something i'm willing to do. And yes, that's how i hear the crux of your previous post.

No, i'm not wrong, just different, old-school and stubborn as hell.

Anyway, I duly await the next evil-tastic iteration of the class. Roll on Sir Chivalry!

Fine, I'll take that arguments like PRC class x is stronger doesn't necessarily imply balance. But how is my argument that straight wizard is stronger not valid? I'm basically saying that I'm pretty sure I could make wizard 20 stronger than wizard 10/disciple of Belial/Fierna 10. I don't see how you could possibly call the class overpowered if that is the case.
Edit: For any class other than wizard the class is in fact clearly inferior. For sorcerers it sucks because you need Knowledge (religion). For clerics and druids it sucks because it gives you worse hit points, attack bonus, and fortitude saves and doesn't advance turn undead/wild shape.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Fine, I'll take that arguments like PRC class x is stronger doesn't necessarily imply balance. But how is my argument that straight wizard is stronger not valid? I'm basically saying that I'm pretty sure I could make wizard 20 stronger than wizard 10/disciple of Belial/Fierna 10. I don't see how you could possibly call the class overpowered if that is the case.

Before this turns ugly, he's calling it unflavourful, or more correctly, he's suggesting the class misses the point of Belial and Fierna. I've done my best to point out that really we're talking about tea-drinking cthulus here, but still.

I will work in his suggestions about sexual power and such, and remove the now defunct sadism and masochism because I will be adding Mark of Phlegethos, but that doens't mean I'm budging from my core design.

Things I'm not discussing anymore:
This is a full casting class. full stop
It is accessable to both arcane and divine.
I'm having a class feature at every level.
Since the layer and both the lords have fire as a theme, I'm keeping Priest of Phlegethos.

Not so hard is it. Work time now.

Last edited by Sir_Chivalry; 2010-02-25 at 02:57 PM.

Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

"One of us is tender,
One of us is not,
One of us takes vengeance,
All four tied in a knot"

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

I like the first two on both chains.

The capstones don't really seem...right somehow. I'd think those were great if you got them around 8th to 9th character level but there?

I'm going to suggest that Beliel gets a day of charm for one and a day of Dominate for 3-5. I'd also suggest changing the tokens to "Dominance". As it is, it's just not nearly fast enough to enslave anyone or make a nice little cult of folks.

I'd also suggest that he be able to enact these powers over almost any distance as a Free action, though can't communicate without other abilities.

The Fierna one...If her every word was a Suggestion for a day, yeah, sure. Somehow that feels odd, though it would at least make her "don't kill me..." more effective.

I can't make any better suggestions at the moment. I'm currently stuck with a strange idea about channelling the powers of the dead to make a somewhat less than altruistic healing class...

Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

I'm not fond of the capstones either. Other than that, it looks good. Hmm, I can't think of any really good suggestions though. I'll check back later though.
Edit: I think it is a bit weaker than before, but then it is a full casting class so I suppose that doesn't matter so much.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

I like the new changes. It's much more balanced without Sadism/Masochism, though I admit I love the flavor of those two spells. Add in some more fluff if you want to emphasize the disturbing aspects of the Cult of Belial (which is, indeed, seriously disturbing), and I think a table for Affiliation Specifics in the Cult of Belial (like in Complete Champion) would be an added enhancement to the prestige class.

Great job! If I get the opportunity to play this class soon (which I'm currently lobbying for in my gaming group) I'll let you know how it functions in play.

Edit: I agree that the capstones are underwhelming at first, but the idea of suddenly turning an enemy into a friend in combat (especially with a Diplomacy check, which is easily boosted) makes me giggle with delight. To boost power, you could change the effects to give the benefits of a Dominate spell, or boost the duration.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Have you guys noticed that between us [admittedly, mostly Chivalry], we've gotten about half way on "The Big Book of Bad, part 2"?

Throw in some plot seeds and Realms of Chaos' 66 Vile feats and you'd have a sourcebook. Not that i'm suggesting we should [lot o'work] but i'm definately saving all five and a half of those designed so far in one place...

Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Ranseur of Belial: When a 10th level disciple of Belial succeeds on an Intimidate check, he can opt to forgo the usual effects in order to gain a ďdominanceĒ token to use against the target of the Intimidate check. Dominance tokens are tallied separately for each opponent intimidated by the disciple, and these tokens last for one hour. A disciple of Belial can spend at least one virility token to charm an opponent. The target must succeed on a Will save to resist (DC 10+disciple of Belialís class level+Cha modifier+2 per each token spent after the first) and the effect lasts for one hour. If he so wishes, the disciple can spend three at least three tokens to dominate the target instead, but extra tokens used to increase the DC of the save only count after the first three instead of the first one.

Flame of Fierna: When a disciple of Fierna succeeds on a saving throw to resist a fear effect or a level check to resist an Intimidate check, the disciple can still feign subservience to the caster/intimidator. With a successful Bluff or Diplomacy check (DC =targetís Sense Motive check or Will save, targetís choice), the disciple successfully convinces the target he is terrified of the target, and is now in the targetís power, though the opposite is true. The target is now dominated for one hour.

There's the newly changed ones, turned the Fierna one into dominate and lowered the token cost and added a dominate option to the Belial one.

Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

"One of us is tender,
One of us is not,
One of us takes vengeance,
All four tied in a knot"

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Requirements
To qualify to become a disciple of Belial/Fierna, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful evil.
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Brand of the Nine Hells (Belial/Fierna), Evil Brand, Sacrificial Mastery
Spells: Must be able to cast 3rd level spells
Special: Must have convinced a loved one to join the cult of Belial, and together the two must sacrifice a captive in boiling oil.

Note that only devils can get Brand of the Nine Hecks (odd, I know...I don't swear or say that word at all). Evil Brand and Sacrificial Mastery are pretty tough requirements as well, as they're not exactly...good. Sacrificial Mastery is alright...but Skill Focus (Knowledge) is better.

Put a parenthesis at the end, right before the period. The skills look good. I especially like how Heal is a class skill. I'm not too versed on the Nine, but I'm guessing Heal is used to stabilize victims of torture so they don't die before you're done with them?

Skill Points
2 + Int modifier.

Nonstandard formatting, but okay.

Path of Belial: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who chooses the path of Belial is a disciple of Belial. A disciple of Belial knows how to use his virility to cause enemies (or allies) to become more beastly and compliant. If a disciple of Belial can cause a humanoid target to engage in an act of passion (kissing, being intimate, etc.) the target must make a Will save (DC 10+discipleís class level+Cha modifier) or become subject to a touch of idiocy from the disciple of Belial. The disciple can accomplish this act of passion either through a Bluff or Diplomacy check (for Bluff, the check is resolved normally in regards to immediate danger to target, etc. For Diplomacy, the check must make the target helpful) or through pinning a grappled opponent. Ability damage heals at a rate of one point for each score each hour instead of normal.

Add "as" before "normal" and after "instead," and get rid of "of."

Path of Fierna: A disciple of Belial/Fierna who chooses the path of Fierna is a disciple of Fierna. A disciple of Fierna knows how to use his sensuality to manipulate both his enemies and allies, causing both to become so turned around they do things they normally wouldnít. If a disciple of Fierna can cause a humanoid target to engage in an act of passion (kissing, being intimate, etc.) the target must make a Will save (DC 10+discipleís class level+Cha modifier) or become subject to a suggestion from the disciple of Fierna. The disciple can accomplish this act of passion either through a Bluff or Diplomacy check (for Bluff, the check is resolved normally in regards to immediate danger to target, etc. For Diplomacy, the check must make the target helpful) or through pinning a grappled opponent. The target believes this suggestion was his own idea, and acts accordingly.

Flavorful, just like the above ability. It's also somewhat proofed against Diplomancy, which is a plus.

Mark of Phlegethos: Whenever a disciple of Belial/Fierna takes or deals damage, he gains one pleasure point. A pleasure point can be spent to gain a +4 bonus on a single roll or check, and accumulated pleasure points disappear at the end of an encounter.

Can you spend more than one point on a single roll or check?

Dark Speech: At 3rd level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna gains the ability to speak the ancient language of the lower planes. The disciple gains the Dark Speech feat as a bonus feat.

I love that feat! It's not even particularly awesome, but it's so flavorful and fun, I don't care.

Sudden Corrupt Spell: Once per day, a 4th level disciple of Belial/Fierna can modify a spell that he casts that deals hit point damage so that half of the damage results from unholy energy, and not from any resistible energy source. A corrupted fireball would deal half damage to a creature immune to fire, because half the damage is not fire.

Alright then. Not a bad bonus feat-type thing.

Acolyte of Belial: When a 5th level disciple of Belial uses his Path of Belial ability and deal ability damage to a targetís mental scores, if he deals enough to reduce one or more of the targetís mental scores to 1, the target heals all damage to his mental ability scores, now all divination spells targeted at the disciple of Belial are redirected to the discipleís target (the target makes the saving throws, and their SR applies instead of the discipleís). For instance, if a disciple of Belial reduces a lawful good paladin to 1 Intelligence, that paladin regains all damaged intelligence but now the disciple of Belial detects as lawful good, and the disciple of Belialís thoughts appear to be the paladinís. This misdirection lasts for one day per disciple of Belial level and works over any distance as long as the disciple and his target are on the same plane. The disciple can only have one such target at a time.

Nice. You've come up with another unique and very flavorful ability that's fairly useful because of its long duration.

My only beef with this ability is that all divinations are redirected toward the paladin, including helpful ones. Perhaps you should specify that spells the disciple (acolyte now?) of Belial is willing to take work automatically against him/her.

Acolyte of Fierna: Whenever a 5th level disciple of Fierna is targeted by a pain-based spell (such as the symbol of pain, thousand needles, wrack) or is tortured, the effects are negated and the disciple instead heals an amount of damage equal to 5 x the spell level (or 5 points per round of torture). This healing doesnít occur when a spell simply deals damage, but only when pain causes penalties on rolls or status effects, though the healing might offset the damage done.

Nice. That's really cool. Perhaps situational, but so is the above ability. This one's slightly more situational and a bit weaker, however, since not as many spells are pain-based compared to the number of divining spells.

Dark Whispers: At 6th level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna can saturate the air with fell voices, warping and twisting reality with words for hateful and foul that mortal minds cannot comprehend them. As a use of Dark Speech, the disciple can take 1 point of constitution damage in order to force everyone within 30ft to make a Will save (DC 10+the disciple of Belial/Fiernaís class level+Cha modifier) or become confused for 1d4 rounds.

Awesome. Constitution damage is quite the price, but making everything save or suck is awesome.

Wording error fixing: "...with words so hateful and foul..."

Priest of Phlegethos: A 7th level disciple of Belial/Fierna who prepares spells can convert any spell prepared into a [fire] spell of the same level when casting. A spontaneous caster gains a +2 to caster level when casting fire spells.

Put a hyphen between 7th and level. Coolness. This is better for spontaneous casters, hands down. Not many casters will willingly change their spells into fire spells without additional benefits. Maybe another benefit for prepared casters is in order? Possibly a small bonus to damage, spell penetration (caster level checks against spell resistance), or something more flavorful.

Sudden Violate Spell: Once per day, an 8th level disciple of Belial/Fierna can modify a spell that he casts that deals hit point damage so that half of the damage results from vile energy, and not from any resistible energy source. A violated fireball would deal half damage to a creature immune to fire, because half the damage is not fire. Also, vile damage cannot be healed unless the healing spell is cast within a consecrated or hallowed area.

Hyphen between 8th and level. Can this be combined with the previous sudden metamagic to make a completely "immune" spell?

Anyway, nice addition.

Filthy Outburst: At 9th level, the disciple of Belial/Fierna knows words of Dark Speech so foul and wretched that they damage the body and weaken the fabric of the mind and soul. As a use of Dark Speech, the disciple can take 1d6 points of constitution damage in order to force everyone within 60ft to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+the disciple of Belial/Fiernaís class level+Cha modifier) or become deafened for 1 minute and take a -2 penalty to saves against evil spells and abilities for the same amount of time.

I'd make it blindness instead of deafness. 1d6 Constitution (capitalize that, by the way--it's an ability score) damage is quite a bit of a price. If deafening makes more sense in flavor, add something else to it in addition to the -2 penalty to saves against evil spells.

Ranseur of Belial: When a 10th level disciple of Belial succeeds on an Intimidate check, he can opt to forgo the usual effects in order to gain a ďdominanceĒ token to use against the target of the Intimidate check. Dominance tokens are tallied separately for each opponent intimidated by the disciple, and these tokens last for one hour. A disciple of Belial can spend at least one virility token to charm an opponent. The target must succeed on a Will save to resist (DC 10+disciple of Belialís class level+Cha modifier+2 per each token spent after the first) and the effect lasts for one hour. If he so wishes, the disciple can spend three at least three tokens to dominate the target instead, but extra tokens used to increase the DC of the save only count after the first three instead of the first one.

Virility? Three at least three?

Put "after" in between of and the at the end. Parallel structure is great, isn't it?

Anyway, it's nice, but perhaps a bit weak for a capstone.

Flame of Fierna: When a disciple of Fierna succeeds on a saving throw to resist a fear effect or a level check to resist an Intimidate check, the disciple can still feign subservience to the caster/intimidator. With a successful Bluff or Diplomacy check (DC =targetís Sense Motive check or Will save, targetís choice), the disciple successfully convinces the target he is terrified of the target, and is now in the targetís power, though the opposite is true. The target is now dominated for one hour.

"...convinces the target he is terrified of the target, and is now in the target's power..."

Again, seems weak for a capstone. You should probably beef it up a bit.

Very interesting class though. Tons of flavor, just like your other classes. I'm going to bed now. I'll try to get to your other classes I promised to look at.

Re: Disciple of Belial/Fierna (DnD 3.5, PEACH)

Originally Posted by Temotei221

Note that only devils can get Brand of the Nine Hecks (odd, I know...I don't swear or say that word at all). Evil Brand and Sacrificial Mastery are pretty tough requirements as well, as they're not exactly...good. Sacrificial Mastery is alright...but Skill Focus (Knowledge) is better.

Read it again. Mortals can, if they perform a deed that gains the attention of the Archduke.

Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!