I still don't understand what the question is, or what he thinks he's proven.

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINATION! A triumph of clarity and perception.

+1 glad to see that I am not the only one confused by this whole thread. Also, I wonder if our dear Alfred realizes that the site he linked to said that Romans 8:28 was used by the Protestants to prove their view. I would hate for this whole thread to have been started over a minute misunderstanding

And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God's punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance thorn the death of a sinner;76 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.

Clement of Alexandria, Book VI, Chapter V

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Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter L

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Let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged. after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.

And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God's punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance thorn the death of a sinner;76 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.

Clement of Alexandria, Book VI, Chapter V

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Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, "Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves." Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile." This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter L

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Let any one imagine that souls are immediately judged. after death. For all are detained in one and a common place of confinement, until the arrival of the time in which the great Judge shall make an investigation of their deserts. Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment.

Lactantius, Book VII, Chapter XXI

Quoting the Fathers isn't enough to prove your point.

You know me, just trying to please you...

But point taken...this proves my point:

Rev 20:13-15 where its implied some raised up from HADES were written in the book of life:

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death– the lake of fire. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NET)

If anyone's name was not found = Some were found.

This conditional (ei tis) clearly has a relation to reality as in its parallel Rev 14:9:

9 A third angel followed the first two, declaring in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and takes the mark on his forehead or his hand, 10 that person will also drink of the wine of God's anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:9-11 NET)

The conditional “if anyone” has a relationship with reality, its marking off those who accept the mark for specially severe punishment. Those who refuse the mark are not treated this way, they have obeyed the warning.

Again:

10 If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed by the sword, then by the sword he must be killed. This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the saints. (Rev 13:10 NET)

It could not be written “if anyone” if there weren’t some not meant for captivity, or to be killed by the sword. The implication has real connection to reality.

5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord (1Co 5:5 NET)

Paul isn’t sure if an Elect can be so wicked, hence “may be saved.” Clearly Paul saw he could be saved after physical death, albeit not in hell, in the “day of the Lord” which puts it in Rev 20:13-15 time frame.

Again:

do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

These rejected Peter’s preaching, and so are spiritually dead. But FOR THIS REASON the gospel was preached to them, that in hell they recall the preaching, and live according to God in the spirit.

Another text, deliverance is the theme:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:18-21 NKJ)

The connections are the water and answer of a good conscience to God that saved both groups.

The context begins with deliverance, ends with deliverance, so why should Christ’s reason for traveling change:

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luk 19:10 NET)

Its out of sync with the general theme of deliverance Christ preached doom to those “formerly disobedient.”

These spirits in prison are not fallen angels, they are the hybrid children of improper angel-human relations, hence “spirits” and not “souls.” This is implied by their segregation, being neither fallen angels or men. Christ extended salvation to include them hence the special mention.

It is written:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:25-29 KJV)

To say Jesus didn’t believe the dead can hear and repent, is absurd.

If the concept were a lie, it wouldn't become a metaphor either.

Catholics bollixed this up, and Protestants follow in their train, its time to reform all the way back to the apostles.

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

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If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

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If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house. Attend community college. Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.

This from one who is 7500 posts and counting!

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

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If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

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If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

I bet Alfred earned an A in Modern Physics. He can tell us where Schrodinger's Cat is or will he dare ask us if God knows where Schrodinger's Cat is.

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If you are confused by this you are not alone. I do not think anyone has a good understanding of what is going on here although many physicists are firmly convinced of the correctness of the interpretation they favor. My own inclination is to think that Einstein was correct, and we need a deeper theory to explain events, like the decay of a particle, that will dispatch Schrödinger's poor cat.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:17 NKJ)

He existed before all things, and he holds everything together. (Col 1:17 CJB)

Its all a matrix. That would explain why electrons change their behaviour when observed, in the double slit experiment, in holographic reality all is in all.

I have no degrees, I’m a high school dropout, self taught in scripture, not physics... but I can speculate with the best...

Maybe you need to get out of the house. Attend community college. Meet some people and stop fueling 1,000+ post threads.

I have lived a life of isolation; it's not fun and it's not meant for everyone.

This from one who is 7500 posts and counting!

I had a 12 post per day average at one point. Now it's under 6.5 with a goal to reduce it to 6 and even less ... trying to enlighten folks like you have delayed that goal.

I have been on this forum 38+ months and I usually have an idea when I've lost a thread. Doesn't make me any less of an Orthodox Christian or less of a person. Learning how to graciously disagree is an important life lesson one can learn.

God chose who to admit and not admit to the eternal kingdom from eternity, regardless of how we live, and these are called the elect.

Election is not based on foreknowledge.

All circumcised Jews are elect, and there are some but not all gentiles that are elect.

Among the elect, there are those whose sins for which Christ died as punishment, and those who must personally receive punishment for their sins.

Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The elect for whom Christ was punished will be raised up and live in this kingdom. The elect who must be punished will receive their punishment as disembodied spirits during this thousand year time. The non-elect will be punished as disembodied spirits during this time.

After a thousand years, Christ will raise everyone from the dead and begin His eternal kingdom. All the elect that are chosen by God will be in the eternal kingdom. All the non-elect will be cast into the lake of fire.

Please forgive and correct me if I am misrepresenting your beliefs here. As has been pointed out, I am discussing individual points, and I don't think I fully understand the bigger picture in the context of which those points need to be understood.

God chose who to admit and not admit to the eternal kingdom from eternity, regardless of how we live, and these are called the elect.

Election is not based on foreknowledge.

All circumcised Jews are elect, and there are some but not all gentiles that are elect.

Among the elect, there are those whose sins for which Christ died as punishment, and those who must personally receive punishment for their sins.

Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The elect for whom Christ was punished will be raised up and live in this kingdom. The elect who must be punished will receive their punishment as disembodied spirits during this thousand year time. The non-elect will be punished as disembodied spirits during this time.

After a thousand years, Christ will raise everyone from the dead and begin His eternal kingdom. All the elect that are chosen by God will be in the eternal kingdom. All the non-elect will be cast into the lake of fire.

Please forgive and correct me if I am misrepresenting your beliefs here. As has been pointed out, I am discussing individual points, and I don't think I fully understand the bigger picture in the context of which those points need to be understood.

1)Why God chose isn’t stated, save its according to His good purpose and will:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

2)God had His own reasons for choosing that He doesn’t divulge to us, and those He chose, He predestined they would be saved, that Christ would have brothers.

Rom 8:28 has Election as an accomplished fact, foreknowing and predestining are two things done to them that prove “all things work together for their good”:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:28-29 NKJ)

Verse 29 “FOR” is Paul’s proof the statement in verse 28 is correct.

3)You must believe IN THIS LIFE to receive forgiveness for sins. If an Elect of God dies an unbeliever, which would include those who say they can live like the Devil, and still be saved, to hell they go upon death, for there is no other name whereby men can be saved:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

Its impossible to have faith in Christ once He arrives, or once you are in hell, then faith isn’t required…then Christ, God, Hell, are very real and faith in the saving sense isn’t possible.

BUT the Elect aren’t forever lost, Dives still sees the light of God in hell, that means he hasn’t passed through the gates of Death, where there is no light of God:

17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death? (Job 38:17 NKJ)

4)Never said all Jews are elect, that contradicts scripture:

6 For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Rom 9:6-8 NKJ)

That the Israel of God will be saved, even if they must go through Hades first, is clear:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom 11:25-29 NKJ)

5)You got parts right. There is a thousand year kingdom to judge those still alive after the plagues and wars preceding Christ’s return. Not all mankind dies, there are billions left alive and they must be judged:

So Christ binds Satan, and believers are raised up from the dead, and become Christ’s kings and priests in His Kingdom.

2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev 20:2-5 NKJ)

During this kingdom, if a person begins sinning, he dies and goes to Hades to await final judgment:

20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa 65:20-25 NKJ)

After the thousand years, Satan is released to tempt the world one final time, then Armageddon occurs, and then the final judgment in the Day of the Lord Jesus:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:7-15 NKJ)

Verse 15 identifies the non elect as those who are cast into the fire:

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NET)

Only the Elect enter God’s Eternal Kingdom:

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)

Anyone who dies an unbeliever goes to Hades, but the Elect go to an upper region where there is still God’s light, they did not pass into eternal separation from God. But all must wait for the Day of the Lord Jesus when Hades is emptied out, and cast into the Lake of fire, which is the second death---The death from which there is no resurrection, no return.

For example, this sinner would have been killed by the Devil, but saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, if he didn’t repent while alive:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Also those Peter preached to, who didn’t repent. In Hades they recall his preaching, and live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

Suppose this happened 1 minute before Christ’s return, then they have a thousand year wait in Hades suffering for their sins, just like Dives, until Christ’s millennial kingdom is completed:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison…

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:t, 11-13 NKJ)

6) Correct.

Hope that clarifies it.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 10:03:12 AM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

I wanna try this again just to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. I apologize if I do this another couple of times after you explain yourself over again, just want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience. I numbered my points this time to make it easier for you to confirm, clarify, or correct.

1. God chooses the elect according to His purpose and will.

2. God predestines and foreknows, but does not predestine according to his foreknowledge.

3. Among the elect there are both believers and unbelievers.

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believeing elect.

7. He will judge everyone alive, and send the non-elect and unbelieving elect to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

8. Any one of the believing elect who sins during this time is sent to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

9. After the thousand year reign over His kingdom, Christ will raise up all those in hades.

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

11. Everyone found in the book of life (all the elect) will enter into the eternal kingdom and the non-elect (those not found) will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

I wanna try this again just to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. I apologize if I do this another couple of times after you explain yourself over again, just want to make sure I get this right. Thank you for your patience. I numbered my points this time to make it easier for you to confirm, clarify, or correct.

1. God chooses the elect according to His purpose and will.

So it is plainly stated by apostle Paul, predestined unto adoption, God made us accepted, not we ourselves:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:4-6 KJV)

Hence it is written:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10 KJV)

We are CREATED in Christ, we didn’t climb up and enter Him, nor did we create ourselves, its all a work of God, and “not of yourselves” vs.8

Created onto good works, hence those who sin like the unsaved, and think a profession of faith in Christ saved them, are wrong…all saved by God, do the Works God foreordained they do.

2. God predestines and foreknows, but does not predestine according to his foreknowledge.

God foreknew all before He created-then the elect were chosen, but that wasn’t the only time God foreknew.

God foreknew the Elect afterward, in a special way, in a way that proves all things work together for their good, this is separate from foreknowing the reprobate, because foreknowing them is not proof all things work together for the Elect’s good:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (Rom 8:28-31 KJV)

Its easy to see how predestining unto salvation proves all things work together for their good, but how does foreknowing them prove this? Because those God foreknows in this special way, He cannot cast off:

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom 11:2 KJV)

No doubt there are other benefits to this, I mention one already… this will serve to correct any “survivor’s guilt” among the elect…they will know God wasn’t partial, all were justly treated, none were saved against their will, and all who willed to be saved, are.

3. Among the elect there are both believers and unbelievers.

If any thought God would trust the church to evangelize the world, they don’t God. And how about all born before Christ? And there is the unpleasant fact few of us would make it if God left our salvation up to us. So God knew all who would have been His had the Devil and Fall never existed, and all of them are predestined unto salvation…because that is what they would have chose, if their free will wasn’t diminished by the fall.

But you cannot say “so God saved me because I’m a good person,” because THAT is not why God chose. We don’t know why God chose, save its according to His good purpose and will.

But if anyone claims God saved people wrongly, then God can prove those He chose would have chosen Him, if they were given a fair chance. Sin got in their way, do God sent His son, to destroy the effects of the Devil:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 KJV)

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

Yes. We all, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God, and none of us will be lost because of the Devil’s work:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Rom 11:25-29 KJV)

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believing elect.

Yes, so it is written:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 KJV)

The righteous dead are in paradise (Lu 23:43; 2 Cor 12:2-4) which is why Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body when he went to Third heaven.

Third Heaven is where Christ’s 2nd advent will begin:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:14-1 KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:51-52 KJV)

7. He will judge everyone alive, and send the non-elect and unbelieving elect to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

Billions will be alive then. Those who accepted the Mark ect will be judged. Any unbelieving elect alive at His coming will become believers…

When I talk about unbelieving elect, I refer to the billions of people who never heard of Christ, or died before they were of age, and who aren’t of the remnant who believe now in this life. The fall really screwed us up, that’s why God saves us, and doesn’t leave it up to us.

No elect will be among those judged sinners during Christ’s millennial kingdom, it just won’t happen. All who do sin are “accursed”, waiting in the intermediate state (hades) to be cast into Eternal fire that can’t be quenched. They will be thrown head long, bound hand and foot, weeping and gnashing their teeth in pain and anger, trapped forever in contemptible resurrection bodies that repay them for using the vessel in God’s image for sin…now that body communicates the Holy Wrath of the living God. Hence Christ said:

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mar 9:43-48 KJV)

That all who die for their sin during the Millennial kingdom are the non elect accursed, is expressly stated:

but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. (Isa 65:20 KJV)

8. Any one of the believing elect who sins during this time is sent to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

No elect ALIVE at the return of Christ will remain unbelieving, they will repent.

9. After the thousand year reign over His kingdom, Christ will raise up all those in hades. Yes.

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

11. Everyone found in the book of life (all the elect) will enter into the eternal kingdom and the non-elect (those not found) will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

All of God’s children will be saved, all of the Devils children are lost.

Not one of God’s children will be lost, not one of the Devil’s children wanted to be saved, so they aren’t.

Their blood is on their own head.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 12:18:45 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Thank you. Right now I just want confirmation and clarification, not proof. I think there will be plenty of opportunity for that later. Breaking this down into points will make it easier to discuss as this progresses.

2. God predestines and foreknows, but does not predestine according to his foreknowledge.

God foreknew all before He created-then the elect were chosen, but that wasn’t the only time God foreknew.

God foreknew the Elect afterward, in a special way, in a way that proves all things work together for their good, this is separate from foreknowing the reprobate, because foreknowing them is not proof all things work together for the Elect’s good:

Its easy to see how predestining unto salvation proves all things work together for their good, but how does foreknowing them prove this? Because those God foreknows in this special way, He cannot cast off:

This will provide for some interesting conversation on how foreknowledge and predestination "work together".

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No doubt there are other benefits to this, I mention one already… this will serve to correct any “survivor’s guilt” among the elect…they will know God wasn’t partial, all were justly treated, none were saved against their will, and all who willed to be saved, are.

If any thought God would trust the church to evangelize the world, they don’t God.

This will provide for some very interesting conversation later on.

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And there is the unpleasant fact few of us would make it if God left our salvation up to us. So God knew all who would have been His had the Devil and Fall never existed, and all of them are predestined unto salvation…because that is what they would have chose, if their free will wasn’t diminished by the fall.

These are some real big "if"s that might provide some interesting discussion later.

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But you cannot say “so God saved me because I’m a good person,” because THAT is not why God chose. We don’t know why God chose, save its according to His good purpose and will.

But if anyone claims God saved people wrongly, then God can prove those He chose would have chosen Him, if they were given a fair chance. Sin got in their way, do God sent His son, to destroy the effects of the Devil:

So while I agree separate threads would allow focus, you must do it, not me.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 09:34:15 AM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

6. Before the thousand year kingdom, Christ will raise up the believing elect.

Yes, so it is written:

The righteous dead are in paradise (Lu 23:43; 2 Cor 12:2-4) which is why Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body when he went to Third heaven.

Third Heaven is where Christ’s 2nd advent will begin:

I'm gonna be honest. I don't know how this will go in duscussion because this becomes a non-issue when we disagree on whether or not there will be a thousand year reign.

I disagree, the intermediate state (an Orthodox concept) is separate from Millenialism or "chiliasm".

And lots of interesting subjects there, Christ's descent into hell, who He preached to, whether it was to save them, or preach doom.

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

7. He will judge everyone alive, and send the non-elect and unbelieving elect to hades for the duration of the thousand year kingdom.

Billions will be alive then. Those who accepted the Mark ect will be judged. Any unbelieving elect alive at His coming will become believers…

There will be no unbelieveing elect at this point. All the elect alive will believe.

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When I talk about unbelieving elect, I refer to the billions of people who never heard of Christ, or died before they were of age, and who aren’t of the remnant who believe now in this life. The fall really screwed us up, that’s why God saves us, and doesn’t leave it up to us.

How you define the "unbelieveing elect" might provide an interesting discussion.

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No elect will be among those judged sinners during Christ’s millennial kingdom, it just won’t happen. All who do sin are “accursed”, waiting in the intermediate state (hades) to be cast into Eternal fire that can’t be quenched. They will be thrown head long, bound hand and foot, weeping and gnashing their teeth in pain and anger, trapped forever in contemptible resurrection bodies that repay them for using the vessel in God’s image for sin…now that body communicates the Holy Wrath of the living God. Hence Christ said:

That all who die for their sin during the Millennial kingdom are the non elect accursed, is expressly stated:

4. Everyone who is of the seed of Abraham through Isaac and a child of God's covenant is elect.

Yes. We all, Jew and Gentile, are the Israel of God, and none of us will be lost because of the Devil’s work:

Is inclusion in either covnenant a sign of election?

We can infer from Paul's words that its impossible WE know beyond doubt whether one is Elect. If they live Christian lives we can assume it, but if they don't, we really don't know:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved (σωθῇ) in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Subjunctive, "may be saved", Paul isn't certain, he thinks it possible. No doubt the terrible sin this one did caused Paul to doubt he was an elect, but its in Hades one knows for sure.

Along this vein Peter says:

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2Pe 1:10-11 KJV)

Abraham's faith completed the good works God foreordained it do (Eph 2:10) and so "completed" the reason God implanted it into Abraham's heart, in a sense "perfecting its manifestation in our sphere."

Both Abraham and Rahab were "declared righteous" by their works, in an analogy to the implanted faith from God that can save which radiates acts of charity James was discussing;

A living faith does the good works God foreordained it do, while a dead faith has none and therefore the latter is not the faith from God that saves:

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jam 2:26-1 KJV)

« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 10:01:59 AM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

5. Christ will return and reign over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years.

Yes, I cited many texts proving that already, Rev c. 20.

There is disagreement on this. I'm startiong to think that all of these points, once clarified, are each worthy of their own thread.

I agree, but you must do it, not me. I'd be accused of spamming, or "flooding" (that was a new one:)

Good discernment on your part. This would be a good place for a mod to jump in and tell me not to do so. I just don't want 20 different conversations on one thread, could be a bit confusing.

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 10:18:45 AM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

Alfred,

If you want to make a specific complaint about the moderator team's decision to consolidate your threads, please do so via private message to Fr. Chris and the moderator team. Public criticism of moderatorial actions is not permitted on this forum and will be met with formal warnings and post moderation if it continues.

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

Alfred,

If you want to make a specific complaint about the moderator team's decision to consolidate your threads, please do so via private message to Fr. Chris and the moderator team. Public criticism of moderatorial actions is not permitted on this forum and will be met with formal warnings and post moderation if it continues.

-PeterTheAleutModerator, Orthodox-Protestant Discussion

What, me complain? I don't even complain about second hand smoke from dcommini, so why start now?

I always feel like coughing when I read his posts, but I ain't complaining!

« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 02:19:29 AM by Alfred Persson »

Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Dumping it all into one thread might be ok for us, but eventually others will be left out, the topics buried by other concerns.

Not just for you and me, but also for anyone else who might have a hard time understanding exactly what it is that is being discussed but would have something to add.

Its garbage to dump everything into one thread. On one board they did this calling it "Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread" which I found impossible, everyone's response gets buried and hence not replied to. They claim they wanted to consolidate, I was tempted to reccomend they consolidate their entire board, put every subject in that thread...and call it "One Stop for Everything Thread", which to them should be wonderful, following their logic. Especially they should dump all the stuff they want to say, in that same thread...makes it easier for me to ignore.

Alfred,

If you want to make a specific complaint about the moderator team's decision to consolidate your threads, please do so via private message to Fr. Chris and the moderator team. Public criticism of moderatorial actions is not permitted on this forum and will be met with formal warnings and post moderation if it continues.

-PeterTheAleutModerator, Orthodox-Protestant Discussion

What, me complain? I don't even complain about second hand smoke from dcommini, so why start now?

I always feel like coughing when I read his posts, but I ain't complaining!

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.

Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

The "rich man" was one of God's elect who died unsaved and so was not "gathered to his people" when he died:

23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'(Luk 16:23-29 NKJ)

Context identifies “the rich man” (aka “Dives”) as a Pharisee, convinced he is an elect of God whose Father Abraham would save from suffering in hell, or rescue after the price for impurity is paid:

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"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."- Genesis Rabbah XLVIII. 8

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"'Passing through the valley of weeping' (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them..."-Erubin 19a -Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382

Compare:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)

Jesus did not dispute Dives was elect of God, He has Abraham responding tenderly, identifying Dives as his offspring (teknon, "son"). To conclude otherwise is inconsistent with Christ's actions elswhere (cp John 8:39 Luke 3:8; cp Luke 19:9)

Also proving Dives is a child of God, is his Christian like concern for others when denied help----A child of the Devil would have responded with curses when denied help:

27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'(Luk 16:27-28 NKJ)

More infallible proof Dives was NOT in the lower part of Hades where those not written in the lamb’s book of life are---he still sees the light of God, Abraham and the redeemed in paradise. The accursed in the lower hells are in total darkness, God’s light cannot be seen (2 Pet 2:4; Job 10:21f; Ps 88:6).

Therefore Jesus puts Dives in an intermediate state between Paradise (Luk 23:43; Third heaven 2 Cor. 12:2, 4; “God will bring with Him” 1 Th 4:14) and the lower hells of the dammed.[/i]

Torment in Hades is temporary because Hades itself will be emptied of all inhabitants, and cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing it will never return:

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)

[For the wicked, far worse torment will resume in the Lake of Fire, also known as a furnace of fire (Mat 13:42), via their contemptible resurrection bodies (Dan 12:2) which communicate such intense physical pain, they weep and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:44ff; ]

Rev 20:13-15 clearly implies Elect were raised up from HADES:

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death– the lake of fire.15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person[/u] was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NET)

If anyone's name was not found = Some were found.[/i]

The conditional (ei tis) implies what is true in reality as seen in this parallel Rev 14:9:

9 A third angel followed the first two, declaring in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and takes the mark on his forehead or his hand,10 that person will also drink of the wine of God's anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb.11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:9-11 NET)

The conditional “if anyone” has relationship with reality, if anyone worships and takes the mark” implies the existence of those who don’t worship and take the mark. Indeed, if these didn’t exist, then how would the conditional “if anyone” be possible?

Again:

10 If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed by the sword, then by the sword he must be killed. This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the saints. (Rev 13:10 NET)

The conditional “if anyone” could not be stated if all are meant for captivity, therefore there is relationship with reality, without the existence of those not meant for captivity, the conditional cannot be expressed.

Jesus promised the Dead would hear His voice and repent:

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:25-29 KJV)

To say Jesus didn’t believe the dead can hear and repent, is absurd.

The apostles clearly believed the dead could repent in Hades:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

Evidently Paul isn’t certain this sinner was an Elect of God, hence the subjunctive “may be saved”.

Also Peter believes in repentance after death:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

“For this reason” the Gospel was preached even to those who rejected it, that after dying for their sin, these recall the preaching and live according to God in the spirit.”[/b]

Those elect caught up in this world, who fail to make friends in eternal places for themselves by means of their unrighteous riches, who fail to realize the law and the prophets were until John, since then its Christ...go to hell upon physical death, because it is written:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

The Elect must repent and believe in Jesus in this life, if they want to avoid Hades. Otherwise, these must endure the penalty for their sin till the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no salvation in Hades as Jesus made clear (Luke 16:26).

In Hades there is only a chance to repent, and live according to God in the Spirit, God will judge who complied in the Day of the Lord Jesus when all in Hades are raised up. Coincidentally, only those found written in the lamb’s book of life, repented and so are raised up into life, all the rest are cast into the Lake which burns with fire and sulphur, their way back to God (2 Thess 1:9) destroyed forever:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.(Rev 21:27-1 NKJ)

[The non elect can repent and believe in Jesus and be saved (Mat 13:15 "their eyes they have closed"; Gen 4:7), but being the children of the Devil, they don't want to...their sin is on their own head. It does not follow from God’s hardening that He overpowered their free will---that they didn’t want it just so Exodus 7:11-14.]

Therefore the gospel is good news---All God elected to salvation will be saved, not one of them lost----even if they must go through Hades first, not one of them will be lost. Their number can’t be counted, even when we count only those who come out of the Great tribulation (Rev 7:14):[/color]

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)

While only a remnant believe now, by God's grace, it does not follow God would not destroy the works of the Devil, and predestine unto salvation, all He foreknew:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

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35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?(Rom 8:35 NKJ)

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Joh 10:29 NKJ)

Therefore Dives was one of God’s elect who failed to live according to the true profession, and had to endure Hades before he could be raised up and be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.(Rom 11:25-36 NKJ)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/b] (Rev 3:20-22 KJV)

« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 07:28:42 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.

Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the standard according to which we will be judged. In this instance it would be foolish to use the rich man as an example of how one can refuse Lazarus and still be saved, even though the parable ends with him in torment and being told that he is stuck there.

I was thinking more along the lines of the sheep and the goats, the receiving in the flesh the things done in the flesh, and the context of reaping what you sow in relation to the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, not to mention those who were without the law having a law unto themsleves.

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren't saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.

Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the standard according to which we will be judged. In this instance it would be foolish to use the rich man as an example of how one can refuse Lazarus and still be saved, even though the parable ends with him in torment and being told that he is stuck there.

I was thinking more along the lines of the sheep and the goats, the receiving in the flesh the things done in the flesh, and the context of reaping what you sow in relation to the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, not to mention those who were without the law having a law unto themsleves.

Those aren't as relevant as this:

It is written:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice29 "and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)Compare

Christ's audience was dead unless they believed, and He goes on to say those "in the graves" will hear, and all who obey will come out to a resurrection of life.

That squares perfectly with this:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 NKJ)Only those not found in the book of life, rise from Hades "to the resurrection of condemnation"

So these finally "hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live", and as Christ said, responded by doing good, i.e., they then "lived according to God in the spirit."

That is why Peter, when speaking of dead who refused to repent and believe his preaching, says it wasn't in vain he preached, because after they die, they will recall the preaching, and repent---live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

Repentance in Hades does happen, that is clear:[/I]

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:18-21 NKJ)

Peter denies baptism itself is the antitype, he identifies the "answer of a good conscience toward God" that is the "like-figure," and as our good conscience answer to believe Jesus resulted in our having eternal life, it follows these who "formerly were disobedient" would be saved by their answer to Jesus’ preaching, albeit after they rose from Hades, "in the Day of the Lord Jesus."

Otherwise there is no "antitype."[/I]

Compare the sinner who would die "that" (hina) his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" = Judgement Day, at the last resurrection:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

all who are in the graves will hear His voice29 "and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

There is no salvation in Hades itself, Christ was very clear, there is a gulf fixed between paradise (the saved) and Hades (the unsaved):26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)

They are saved when God Judges them “in the Day of the LORD Jesus.”

« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 04:35:00 PM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

10. He will judge everyone according to who is found in the book of life (the elect) and who is not found therein (the non-elect).

He will judge them all according to their works, and coincidentally the non elect did not live according to God in the Spirit, and so they aren’t saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus.

But the elect, finding themselves in hell, like Dives, repent, finally show Christian concern for others etc…and so rise up from hades into life.

How we view the final judgement might be an interesting discussion.

Why don't you cherry pick from the following, what you want to discuss, make it a separate thread that would be acceptable to the moderators...as it appears we may have to wait for more reponses on predestination, but perhaps lots more want to comment on the rich man and Lazarus in Hades:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the standard according to which we will be judged. In this instance it would be foolish to use the rich man as an example of how one can refuse Lazarus and still be saved, even though the parable ends with him in torment and being told that he is stuck there.

I was thinking more along the lines of the sheep and the goats, the receiving in the flesh the things done in the flesh, and the context of reaping what you sow in relation to the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit, not to mention those who were without the law having a law unto themsleves.

The situation reported in both Peter, Jude and Revelation must be part of your overall doctrine of salvation:

2 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12 NKJ)

There are three books, one recording the deeds of the wicked, second recording the deeds of Elect who died without Christ, and third has the names of the Elect.

Had the non Elect repented in Hades, the ransom sacrifice of Christ would have covered their sins on Judgment Day, but being children of the Devil, they are like their father, they hate God without cause and simply could not bring themselves to “live according to God in the Spirit.” Evidently they spent their time in Hades cursing God and all with Him.

The Elect like Dives repented in Hades, lived according to God in the spirit, therefore having been put to death in the flesh, their spirit will be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus, on Judgment Day. Their misdeeds, as well as their repentance and “answer of a good conscience” in Hades, allow God apply the Ransom sacrifice of Christ and forgive their sins, on Judgment Day. They are saved by His grace, not their works, that is the meaning of “anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” Rev (20:15; 21:7)

The Book of Life written before the foundation of the world, lists the names of all those God foreknew and predestined would be conformed to the image of His Son and therefore, be saved:

whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. (Rev 13:8-9 NKJ)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom 8:29-33 NKJ)

We don’t know why God selected the Elect (Rom 9:11), and not the non Elect, evidently its none of our business. We do know God didn’t show partiality (Rom 2:11), nor was His selection based upon what they did in this life (Rom 9:11; Eph 2:4-11), it was according to His good pleasure of His will (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:4-7). So the book of life lists those saved by God’s undeserved kindness, whom God chose would not be lost because of the Devil’s work, or the seductive power of sin:

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

Hades documented God’s choices were just. All had equal opportunity to repent and live according to God in the spirit, but only the Elect did so and therefore have Christ as the propitiation for their sins.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

Like Cain, when given a choice, the children of the Devil are like their father, these choose evil willingly, their THEY have closed:

7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

It does not follow from God’s hardening, that these weren’t willing participants, that without hardening, they would choose good:

13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said. 14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exo 7:13-14 NKJ)

God’s hardening made their doing what God wanted done, for His own purpose and will, certain. But it does not follow these objected, rather they rejoiced in doing the evil they did, their free will was never overridden by God.

##

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison-(1 Pet 3:18-19 KJV)

These spirits in prison are not the angels God sent to counter the Nephilim (Satan's angels), these “sons of God” or angels were seduced by wicked mankind via their beautiful daughters:

NKJ Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:1-3 NKJ)

While these “sons of God” didn’t rebel like Satan and his angels, they left their proper habitation and corrupted the image of God in man, with the DNA of angels---therefore they are being reserved for special judgment and are forever lost, their chains everlasting:

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

Its likely their torment will end at some point, but their separation from God will be forever.

These hybrid souls are “spirits” and not “souls” because they are part ELOHIYM (Gen 6:2), analogous to regenerated human souls that have partaken Divine nature (2 Pet 1:4) and so are a “new creature” (2 Cor 5:17), aka “spirits” (Heb 12:23).

They are in prison segregated from both angels and man, being hybrid. No doubt they wondered what was to become of them. That’s why Christ made the special trip to them. These evidently accepted as they are said to be “formerly disobedient” and its implied the “answer of a good conscience” was how they responded to Jesus’ preaching, as it is a like figure to the answer of a good conscience Noah and those with him gave, and us the remnant who chose Christ in this life, and so guaranteed to be among those of the first resurrection.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:20-21 NKJ)

This is why “sea” is mentioned separately from “death and Hades” in Rev 20:13, because the entrance to this prison is in the sea:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works (Rev 20:13 NKJ)

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 08:23:25 AM by Alfred Persson »

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

We don’t know why God selected the Elect (Rom 9:11), and not the non Elect, evidently its none of our business. We do know God didn’t show partiality (Rom 2:11), nor was His selection based upon what they did in this life (Rom 9:11; Eph 2:4-11), it was according to His good pleasure of His will (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:4-7). So the book of life lists those saved by God’s undeserved kindness, whom God chose would not be lost because of the Devil’s work, or the seductive power of sin:

Your strange little god is so random isn't it? Why on earth would you worship such a loser?

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 08:32:36 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

It is in Romanian and you can translate it in English. The English title can be: "The Life of Saint Basil The New"

If you want to excerpt the relevant text, I'll read it. But I'll reaffirm, Christ satisfies all my needs:

28 I tell you the truth, people will be forgiven for all sins, even all the blasphemies they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mar 3:28-29 NET)

“Eternal sin” = some sins not eternal

31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NET)

“people will be forgiven for every sin” = forgiveness of sins possible after death“forgiven…in the age to come” = “forgiveness possible in age to come”

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)