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It's decompressed, there's no character development or characterization at all. Bendis' revised timeline is a poorly thought out joke that's masked with just enough fanboy catnip to keep the hardcore Marvelites at bay.

It's utter and complete shit, and is a sterling example of why people think the comic book industry is dying despite record sales.

I guess I'm in one of those moods where I don't understand just what in the hell people who read comic books want. We complain about damn near everything.

DC resets? We hate it.

We hate Uncanny Avengers, despite the fact that it continues to push characters forward while, at the same time, allows for things that have been written in the past like Sunfire being altered by Apocalypse and Archangel getting Pestilence pregnant, while making it clear that not everyone knew that Wolverine was running a murder squad.

I guess we don't want those stories told.

We don't like Avengers or New Avengers because of...what, again? I can't keep track of it all.

At some point, as readers, we can't hate EVERYTHING. Being able to rationally discuss what we like, or don't like, isn't the worst thing in the world. It's frustrating at times to just hear the same complaints over and over, by rote.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

This book on Amazons Attack level of terrible. It's telling that Marvel's only half-heartedly promoting the event. They'd much rather have fans focused on Infinity than realizing that they've pissed away $40 on a crappy, dialed in alternative history story in which the main villain has yet to make an appearance after 8 issues.

BlueStreak wrote:This book on Amazons Attack level of terrible. It's telling that Marvel's only half-heartedly promoting the event. They'd much rather have fans focused on Infinity than realizing that they've pissed away $40 on a crappy, dialed in alternative history story in which the main villain has yet to make an appearance after 8 issues.

Sorry, BlueStreak - you're wrong. Amazons Attack was the best crossover event DC's published in the last 25 years. It was an example of everything that's good about comics. It spoke truth to power during the Bush years. It pushed the characters forward into places you'd never expect they'd go. Will Pfeiffer and Pete Woods produced a diamond out of a lump of coal.

How it failed to win an Eisner baffles me to this day.

My big thing is this: we have often criticized DC and Marvel's policies and behavior, including big events, foil covers, creator's rights, and decompression. But we believe too many of the critics cross the line that separates legitimate, productive criticism from polemical, inaccurate and unfair attacks. Some of what these critics say is true, some of their accusations are justified. The truth is rarely black or white; it resides in a gray area where advocates on either side typically don’t like to venture. That is where we must go with comics criticism.

BlueStreak wrote:This book on Amazons Attack level of terrible. It's telling that Marvel's only half-heartedly promoting the event. They'd much rather have fans focused on Infinity than realizing that they've pissed away $40 on a crappy, dialed in alternative history story in which the main villain has yet to make an appearance after 8 issues.

What? That's simply not true. Brevort and Bendis have been conducting "what happened" intervews for the 'Rama, just like they did for AvsX, and we've been hit over the head with Angela's migration to the Marvel Universe repeatedly.

Again, just because you're using hyperbole doesn't make it true.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Johnny Smith wrote:Sorry, BlueStreak - you're wrong. Amazons Attack was the best crossover event DC's published in the last 25 years. It was an example of everything that's good about comics. It spoke truth to power during the Bush years. It pushed the characters forward into places you'd never expect they'd go. Will Pfeiffer and Pete Woods produced a diamond out of a lump of coal.

How it failed to win an Eisner baffles me to this day.

My big thing is this: we have often criticized DC and Marvel's policies and behavior, including big events, foil covers, creator's rights, and decompression. But we believe too many of the critics cross the line that separates legitimate, productive criticism from polemical, inaccurate and unfair attacks. Some of what these critics say is true, some of their accusations are justified. The truth is rarely black or white; it resides in a gray area where advocates on either side typically don’t like to venture. That is where we must go with comics criticism.

This series continues it’s surprising swerve into alternate reality, and it’s a lot of fun. As I said about last issue, your enjoyment of this issue will depend largely on how much of a fanboy you get when it comes to alternate universes. I like ‘em, so I liked this issue. Bendis drops a lot more information about ‘the new now’ on us, and I found a lot of it very interesting. The antipathy between Tony Stark and The Defenders is intriguing, as is the fact that Morgan Le Fey is the biggest bad in this universe and the conflict between magic and science is a big, big deal. Who knew Hank Pym was so important? I wonder if Marvel are planning on any mini-series that explore this reality in greater depth like they did with House Of M, that universe lived on for a lot longer than I expected, and really, Bendis has only scratched the surface here.

Brandon Peterson’s artwork is again very good, one of his strong-points is his depiction of technology and he gets to do a lot of that here. The climax of this issue involves Le Fey attacking at the same time as The Defenders attempt to break ‘our’ Wolverine and Sue Storm out of prison,and all hell breaks loose, with an amazing visual of two Helicarriers smashing into each other. It also looks like we’ll be getting Wolverine Vs Wolverine round two, which should be exciting. There’s a lot to wrap up in the remaining two issues of this title, people have complained about this event being too slow, but now I fear things may move too past!

It's decompressed, there's no character development or characterization at all. Bendis' revised timeline is a poorly thought out joke that's masked with just enough fanboy catnip to keep the hardcore Marvelites at bay.

It's utter and complete shit, and is a sterling example of why people think the comic book industry is dying despite record sales.

That's the funny thing about this series: I can explain exactly where I feel it's written well. You, on the other hand, use generalities and hyperbole to say...what, exactly?

What isn't written well, Blue? What segment of the book, which issues, do you have problems with? How would you have resolved them?

You're not offering that up...why? If the book is so bad, it seems to me that it'd be pretty damn easy to explain how you would have done it better.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Punchy wrote:This series continues it’s surprising swerve into alternate reality, and it’s a lot of fun. As I said about last issue, your enjoyment of this issue will depend largely on how much of a fanboy you get when it comes to alternate universes. I like ‘em, so I liked this issue. Bendis drops a lot more information about ‘the new now’ on us, and I found a lot of it very interesting. The antipathy between Tony Stark and The Defenders is intriguing, as is the fact that Morgan Le Fey is the biggest bad in this universe and the conflict between magic and science is a big, big deal. Who knew Hank Pym was so important? I wonder if Marvel are planning on any mini-series that explore this reality in greater depth like they did with House Of M, that universe lived on for a lot longer than I expected, and really, Bendis has only scratched the surface here.

Brandon Peterson’s artwork is again very good, one of his strong-points is his depiction of technology and he gets to do a lot of that here. The climax of this issue involves Le Fey attacking at the same time as The Defenders attempt to break ‘our’ Wolverine and Sue Storm out of prison,and all hell breaks loose, with an amazing visual of two Helicarriers smashing into each other. It also looks like we’ll be getting Wolverine Vs Wolverine round two, which should be exciting. There’s a lot to wrap up in the remaining two issues of this title, people have complained about this event being too slow, but now I fear things may move too past!

Punchy, haven't you been reading this thread? You're an idiot if you don't think that everything about this books sucks, despite the fact that you read as many books as I do every single month, have for years, and have no problems offering opinions about WHAT THE STORY IS ACTUALLY TELLING.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

ElijahSnowFan wrote:Punchy, haven't you been reading this thread? You're an idiot if you don't think that everything about this books sucks, despite the fact that you read as many books as I do every single month, have for years, and have no problems offering opinions about WHAT THE STORY IS ACTUALLY TELLING.

I've been getting crap for liking this series from the start.

I actually like that this title has not been what everyone expected, I like that Ultron has been a more peripheral figure. I like that the the very idea of Ultron is more of a terrifying villain than most actual villains.

Susan Richards allowing Wolverine to kill Hank Pym was significant on any number of levels. The Fantastic Four has always been a concept, a unit, that has been "above the fray." Reed Richards has always been a bit of a douche, but Ben, Johnny and Sue have always had this wholesome air about them.

But you know what? When push comes to shove, when faced with the thought of losing her kids, her reality, everything that she ever knew, it was interesting to see that Susan Richards would still, initially, choose to not let Hank Pym be killed. She didn't want to allow that to happen, she wanted there to be another option, but there wasn't, and she wanted to save her family.

That makes her more human than she's been in years. She's always been the paragon of motherhood and wholesomeness. It's great for her character to actually have to struggle with a moral question. When was the last time that happened?

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

Punchy wrote:I've been getting crap for liking this series from the start.

I actually like that this title has not been what everyone expected, I like that Ultron has been a more peripheral figure. I like that the the very idea of Ultron is more of a terrifying villain than most actual villains.

It's not a classic, by any means, but it's pretty good.

Peripheral would indicate present, and he hasn't been present the entire series.

I took a 25 dollar tour to see the basements of the Marvel Universe and I was hoping to see Ultron, one of the best Avenger's villains of all time, at least at some point in this event.

BlueStreak wrote:This book on Amazons Attack level of terrible. It's telling that Marvel's only half-heartedly promoting the event. They'd much rather have fans focused on Infinity than realizing that they've pissed away $40 on a crappy, dialed in alternative history story in which the main villain has yet to make an appearance after 8 issues.

I will admit I do not stand with Blue on the overall quality of this event. it certainly has its weaknesses...i feel the first few issues were TOO decompressed, i do lament the fact that the titular villain has not shown up through 8 issues in a 10-issue mini, i feel that after dragging the first 4-5 issues along so slowly Bendis is now throwing too much too fast and it's really affecting the narrative for me, i don't like Peterson's art, and other assorted complaints, but it is not the worst thing ever written, and it's damn sure not Amazons Attack-level, which is somehow even worse than the worst thing ever written.

that said, he does obliquely touch on the one thing this issue which really did finally lose me, or at least sway me into being in line with his earlier point about just enough fanboy-nip to appease old-timers...why Morgana? I saw Bendis's post about all the stuff that wouldn't have happened or would have happened differently if hank had been killed. I've followed Bendis's narrative thread here so far. I get the "butterfly effect". and I think it actually probably would've been neat in this story to draw sort of a straight line from Hank's murder through to a logical cataclysmic event that wouldn't have happened had he still been around. but a magic vs. science war with le Fey that the heroes lose? where in holy fuck does that come from in relation to BIOCHEMIST Henry Pym? instead of going with something logical that could've proven his big long list of altered continuity relevant and worthwhile, Bendis pulls this completely out of his hat, I guess because he has a hard-on for the character because he really REALLY liked Avengers 240-241 (which might also explain his Jess Drew love too, come to think of it...) or the first 3 issues of the Busiek/Perez run or something. it feels totally unrelated to everything else he's shown so far, and THAT's where the narrative loses me.

Last edited by chap22 on Thu May 16, 2013 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.