I still believe that Ner'zhul's soul is still in the crown. It works like Kel'Thuzad's phylactery, or any lich for that matter. Ner'zhul dies when the crown is destroyed, but cannot be because the remaining scourge will go bonkers. After Bolvar is crowned, it sounds like an orc is telling Tirion to get lost.

As far as Arthas, Frostmourne, and Ner'zhul goes, it was Ner'zhul and Frostmourne/Arthas that merged together. Frostmourne had taken most of Arthas' soul and Arthas used whatever he had left to hold back the scourge. My friends always tell me that Arthas was bad. I will never agree with them in a million years. It's unfortunate that the story is mixed up between WC, WoW, and Rise of the Lich King, but I think it makes the most sense that Arthas was good.

I still believe that Ner'zhul's soul is still in the crown. It works like Kel'Thuzad's phylactery, or any lich for that matter. Ner'zhul dies when the crown is destroyed, but cannot be because the remaining scourge will go bonkers. After Bolvar is crowned, it sounds like an orc is telling Tirion to get lost.

As far as Arthas, Frostmourne, and Ner'zhul goes, it was Ner'zhul and Frostmourne/Arthas that merged together. Frostmourne had taken most of Arthas' soul and Arthas used whatever he had left to hold back the scourge. My friends always tell me that Arthas was bad. I will never agree with them in a million years. It's unfortunate that the story is mixed up between WC, WoW, and Rise of the Lich King, but I think it makes the most sense that Arthas was good.

This might be a topic for another thread, but I'll post it here anyway.

Considering that, as you say, Arthas was "good" in the end because he held back the Scourge as the Lich King, what was he thinking when he had Frostmourne and slaughtered half of Lordaeron? I remember him saying in the WC3: RoC campaign "I've damned everything I know and everyone I love, yet I feel no pity, no remorse." Is this the runeblade speaking (some kind of mind control?), or is he actually not caring about anyone and doing it because he doesn't feel any remorse? The book doesn't explain this well either.

As far as I understand from the book, he sometimes gets second thoughts before doing his things as a DK, but doesn't really do much more than that, in fact carrying on the slaughter. Is this because he's mind controlled by Frostmourne and the will of the Lich King? Or is it because he feels nothing is holding him back (his feelings are gone)? Confused on this part now!

Really sucks if they start to limit their vision for an expansion just to get the next one out faster.

What would Metzen say to this now? I had forgotten he actually held back to lure us, the players, to him. So I think the whole "Arthas held the Scourge back" point is weightless now. My mind is about to explode. I need answers.

Really sucks if they start to limit their vision for an expansion just to get the next one out faster.

This might be a topic for another thread, but I'll post it here anyway.

Considering that, as you say, Arthas was "good" in the end because he held back the Scourge as the Lich King, what was he thinking when he had Frostmourne and slaughtered half of Lordaeron? I remember him saying in the WC3: RoC campaign "I've damned everything I know and everyone I love, yet I feel no pity, no remorse." Is this the runeblade speaking (some kind of mind control?), or is he actually not caring about anyone and doing it because he doesn't feel any remorse? The book doesn't explain this well either.

As far as I understand from the book, he sometimes gets second thoughts before doing his things as a DK, but doesn't really do much more than that, in fact carrying on the slaughter. Is this because he's mind controlled by Frostmourne and the will of the Lich King? Or is it because he feels nothing is holding him back (his feelings are gone)? Confused on this part now!

My explanation for him appearing to be bad is Frostmourne. The sword was cursed. I don't know what the curse was, I don't know if anyone does. My theory is that it stole his soul, which would make sense considering it takes the souls of its victims. Arthas just had a special bond with it since he was the first victim. Ner'zhul lead Arthas to Frostmourne, and Ner'zhul knew how much Arthas wanted the scourge to be destroyed. I think Ner'zhul knew what Frostmourne would do to Arthas, otherwise he wouldn't lead him to such a powerful weapon. Arthas' mistake was that he became so blind with vengeance that he fell for Ner'zhul's trap.

You might say, "Well Arthas killed all of those people in Stratholme and he didn't have Frostmourne then!" My response would be that the civilians were going to die anyways and Arthas knew it. He didn't want his people that he LOVED to become undead. Arthas actually put himself through a lot purging the city. Sure, at this point he was going crazy, but it was because of the love for his people. Numerous times it is explained how much he loves his kingdom. He loved his dad, he had the woman, the people loved him, he loved his freaking horse like it was his best friend, and he was the next in line to rule the most powerful human kingdom. (Although I guess the other ones got destroyed by the orcs.) While he did hate his training sessions, he was going to be not only a king, but a major figure of the light. My point is, this guy had EVERYTHING. Why would he throw it away?

He thought what he was doing was right, that it was for his people. But in reality he was walking down a dark road to damnation. As the (bit cheesy) saying goes: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain". People tend to think that when Arthas touched Frostmourne BAM he became evil/corrupted, but actually it was just the finishing touch of a long process. The whispers in the TFT final cinematic sum it all up pretty well.

the lich king was holding back from destroying the world because his human side was holding him back. uther says that, jaina says that after she sees that he had kept her locket with her, and there's a questline about arthas' human side (matthias lehner) showing you the lich king's story and his weakness.

he was also holding back from destroying YOU because he wanted to test you and turn you into his champion.

I always found it stupid that Ner'zhul was just thrown out of the window. He was the one who made Arthas go nuts, and all the way up until Arthas became the Lich King Arthas was never anything but a henchman lead by Ner'zhul. But yeah, because he was the more popular character, being the center of Warcraft 3 and all, Blizz made him the dominant personality. That was just one step in making The Lich King go from being one of my favorite Warcraft characters to making him one of the characters I dislike the most, and not for the right reason.

I always found it stupid that Ner'zhul was just thrown out of the window. He was the one who made Arthas go nuts, and all the way up until Arthas became the Lich King Arthas was never anything but a henchman lead by Ner'zhul. But yeah, because he was the more popular character, being the center of Warcraft 3 and all, Blizz made him the dominant personality. That was just one step in making The Lich King go from being one of my favorite Warcraft characters to making him one of the characters I dislike the most, and not for the right reason.

I always thought they should have kept the Lich King as a Ner'zhul/Arthas entity, instead of Arthas being the dominant one. Would have made for a far more interesting character.

Really sucks if they start to limit their vision for an expansion just to get the next one out faster.

This might be a topic for another thread, but I'll post it here anyway.

Considering that, as you say, Arthas was "good" in the end because he held back the Scourge as the Lich King, what was he thinking when he had Frostmourne and slaughtered half of Lordaeron? I remember him saying in the WC3: RoC campaign "I've damned everything I know and everyone I love, yet I feel no pity, no remorse." Is this the runeblade speaking (some kind of mind control?), or is he actually not caring about anyone and doing it because he doesn't feel any remorse? The book doesn't explain this well either.

As far as I understand from the book, he sometimes gets second thoughts before doing his things as a DK, but doesn't really do much more than that, in fact carrying on the slaughter. Is this because he's mind controlled by Frostmourne and the will of the Lich King? Or is it because he feels nothing is holding him back (his feelings are gone)? Confused on this part now!

His soul was stolen by Frostmourne. The inscription on the pedestal said something like, "as this blade tends flesh, so must it rend the soul," or something like that (too lazy to look it up, it's got the general gist of it anyways). Arthas said he'd pay any price to save his people and thus took up the sword.

So as he killed with it, his soul was stolen bit by bit, until he was fully in the thrall of the sword (and by extension, the Lich King). He isn't exactly mind controlled, not like other undead; he still has some semblance of will and choices, but is still under the Lich King's control.

This is pretty much it. Uther and Jaina thought it was Arthas's humanity holding him back. However, Icecrown's quest chains show evidence against that (as well as the final fight).

The Lich King had pretty much 3 entities when Arthas and Ner'zhul fused: Arthas, Ner'zhul, and what was left as Arthas' humanity. When the Lich King lay dormant, he was pretty much getting used to his power and strengthening his hold. During this time, Arthas "consumed" Ner'zhul, making himself the sole Lich King effectively, and then cut out his heart to rid himself of his humanity. Bu this point, there wasn't anything of Arthas left; he was just the Lich King.

The whole "Arthas' humanity is holding him back" reasoning was a farce, something that Jaina and Uther wanted to see because, no matter what, they still loved Arthas. They couldn't bear to think of him as truly evil and gone. It's a basic human psychological way to deal with things; we see what we want to see. Uther still saw Arthas as his young (if misguided) pupil; Jaina still loved him (it's possible he still loved her too - he did keep the locket, even if he did seal it away), so they saw what they wanted to.

Meanwhile, Arthas plan was to lure the greatest heroes Azeroth had to offer to his stronghold and make them his champions. After that, nothing would have stopped him. And he would've succeeded too, had he not been foiled at the last minute by the bullshit deus ex machina Tirion pulled.

Originally Posted by checking facts

nah, it's not quite like that.

the lich king was holding back from destroying the world because his human side was holding him back. uther says that, jaina says that after she sees that he had kept her locket with her, and there's a questline about arthas' human side (matthias lehner) showing you the lich king's story and his weakness.

he was also holding back from destroying YOU because he wanted to test you and turn you into his champion.

Like I said above, it's a basic human psychological tactic to make ourselves right. Jaina still loved him, and so she saw Arthas as still good. Uther did the same. Matthias was personified as the image of innocence: a child. It makes sense that he'd believe Arthas truly still good.

Originally Posted by Steppinrazor

He thought what he was doing was right, that it was for his people. But in reality he was walking down a dark road to damnation. As the (bit cheesy) saying goes: "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain". People tend to think that when Arthas touched Frostmourne BAM he became evil/corrupted, but actually it was just the finishing touch of a long process. The whispers in the TFT final cinematic sum it all up pretty well.

This is also quite correct. Arthas didn't truly become evil until he had donned the crown, consumed Ner'zhul, and then cut out his own humanity.

The main goal of the scourge is to fight against the Burnning Legion. The LK could have whiped Azeroth easyly but he needed some great champions to be his biggest force, and actually have an oportunity facing Sargeras, thats what Woltk is all about, is about the LK fooling everyone and putting obstacles to some heroes, they could become the best of the best so when the hour has come he would turn them into his servants.

"it appears that the voice of the Lich King when you approached Kel'thuzad sounded "double"
• Most likely due to different voice actors. Kinda of how KT voice went up quite a few pitches

My take and from what I remember with the whole deal is as following

First Arthas had a mental battle with Ner'zhul for control. Arthas was still in there and knew what Ner'zhul would do if he gained control (Most likely went full on evasion across Azeroth)
Arthas wins this metal battle but doesn't totally destroy Ner'zhul. Just kinda of puts him in the corner and he can't come out to play anymore. In the process Arthas got rid of himself. His humanity I guess you could say. He became an emotionless shell (Or Helmet if you'd like) He became a new person all together or thing rather. That's why he didn't become Arthas again after Ner'zhul was put on timeout.

But I think the "Arthas" part was still effecting the lich king. In Wotlk he doesn't really go all out on the evasion. I guess there's the whole Pre-Wotlk event, but other than that he just kind of sat in ICC and had Deathknights made. His soul was still intact, but couldn't fully gain control, but it was holding the Lich King back enough to not go to full blown acts of genocide.

After we kill him in ICC we awaken Arthas at the end as we can obviously tell. So he dies as Arthas. Ner'zhul on the other hand is still most likely tied to the helm. Without Arthas being there to keep him in check I'm sure he's out playing with Bolvar and Bolvar is going at it just like Arthas did.

That's what I think anyways. It may or may not be what actually happened, but that's what I came up with.