For my Eisbock batch should I Krausen or Spiese? I am thinking that Krausening is the way to go, but its all new to me. How do I formulate the amount I need? Should I store 10-20% of my original wort in the fridge to use later for the Krausening? If I do, when freezing (for Eisbock) how should I figure out the amount of Ice to remove since my volume is now different? Do I just make a typical Starter batch and pitch it at high krausen to my flat beer? Do I bottle right away or allow the second fermentaion to occur in my carboy and then bottle? I remember Mesa telling me I should probably use Champagne yeast. I also noticed when people talk about Krausening the also talk about dry hopping... should I consider this also? Will this process leave a layer of sedement at the bottom of the bottle like happens now when I prime and bottle?
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I have heard that the only big difference in Krausening and using Spiese is the conditioning time and obviously the fact that one is actually pitching a quantity of actively fermenting yeast.
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If I sound confused... I am.
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John

This sounds like a hard question but here goes; From what I know about these options (very little), Spiese priming is the addition of sterile, unfermented wort to the fermented beer before bottling. The drawbacks are such "(1) Malt takes longer to be processed by the yeast than sugar, resulting in slower conditioning.(2)This new malt has not fermented and aged......mau contribute minor "new beer" characteristics that will require slightly more time to dissipate.(3) This method is less exact [than priming with sugar]because of the variable nature of malt extracts....." (taken for the "Brew-master's Bible" by Stephen Snyder). Otherwise, a good starting qty can be determined by the following (for 5gal batches); OG 1070 - 1-1.5qt, OG 1060- 1.5-1.75qt, OG1050 - 1.75-2qt.

Alternately, krausening is a method in which a portion of actively fermenting beer w/ high yeast cell count & unfermented sugar is added to the beer to produce carbonation. This may be the ticket for your Eisbock since the yeast may be dead or completley settled. Although I can't find quantity info regarding krausening, I believe it is the same as speise. My "gut feel" is that it would be difficult to screw up too bad, I'd save a couple qts in a sterile (sanitized) container, pitch a little extra yeast, wait for the krausen, dump it in, and bottle. The worst that can happen; cloudy beer, flat beer, or overcarbonated (bang!!) beer (of which you will naturally drink up and consider a pleasant learning experience.) To answer your questions; You would need to bottle immediately after speise/krausening. I wouldn't know about the champagne yeast, my favorite brewing book suggests Wyeast 2206,2279, or 2306 (for bocks).As far as dry hopping during krausening/speise(ing), i would think it a bad idea to add more hops trub at this point. I'd lean towards dry hopping after the boil or between primary/secondary fermentations to allow the hops trub to settle out. Last of all, I imagine the krausening will leave a pretty good yeast smudge in the bottom of the bottle, but what can you do?

Hopefully my take on this issue will ec=nscourage someone with some experience to respond and correct my assumptions.

The amount of gyle needed for a 5 gallon batch is equal to (12 X gallons of wort) divided by the last 2 digits of the specific gravity .ie. a wort with a specific grav of 1.040 would be
(12 X 5) / 40 or 60/40 or 1 1/2 quarts of gyle. Which is unfermented wort that was removed and sealed in a sterile container before the yeast was pitched.

You do know about the speise thing, you nailed the formula for speise gasse (adding unfermented wort to prime). Its a common misunderstanding to call this process "krausening", but krausening is the addition of "beer" at high krausen to the fermented batch to prime, i.e. when one batch is ready to bottle, the brewer would remove a portion of actively fermenting beer from another batch in progress and add it to provide both the sugars needed for CO2 production and fresh yeast, which may have settled out or died during long lagering periods.

All this sounds interesting, but I'm not a purist brewer, I'll stick with priming sugar and/or forced carbonation.

"Krausening entails adding a small portion of the sugary liquid which has very active yeast. The small quantity of very active yeast add carbon dioxide to the beer. This gives the beer natural carbonation." It "is a traditional method used in a small percentage of modern beer(s). Most breweries achieve carbonation using other methods such as bunging, adding pure carbon dioxide, and adding carbonated water."

"Since such a small supply of wort is being introduced, the new yeast has a limited food supply. It quickly exhausts the available sugars and is then forced to scavenge among a range of secondary compounds for more food. This eliminates strong and potentially offensive odors and flavors, producing an elegant and balanced flavor, and adding smoothness and body."

"This (procedure) involves letting the beer ferment itself out completely (in a primary fermenter) before transferring to a lagering tank. (For my purposes conditioning will take place in the bottle.) In the lager tank (bottling bucket) an addition of 10 to 20% new beer in high fermentation is introduced (and then bottled). As this additional beer ferments out the C02 generated is absorbed and carbonation is achieved. One of the main advantages of this method is that by blending between batches greater uniformity is assured. A major disadvantage is that the introduction of new beer into older beer can impart a "green beer" flavor which requires additional lagering time to be reduced."
"The home brewer can utilize kraeusening more readily than spunding (Adding sterile wort to fermented beer). Because the beer is fermented to completion, this method can also be used for ales. The only drawback is that one needs to brew an identical or very similar style of beer to act as the kraeusening agent."
"One way to avoid this problem is by putting some unfermented wort aside and reintroducing it into its - parent batch after primary fermentation."

"A traditional method of conditioning and carbonation that adds a small quantity of young fermenting wort (about 15 to 20%) to a fully fermented lagering one to create a secondary fermentation and natural carbonation."