F-35 Development and News Thread:

"We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

"We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

"We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

I am so glad that yanks are spending ( have to spend ) enormous sums on fighter aircraft . How many soldiers did they loose in Iraq before running away and commiting mass suicide like lemmings ? A tiny 4000 ! How many pilots can they loose before loosing the psychological battle ? My guess . Forty or so . Why ? Because like Iraq , it is not their war . Alternatives for college graduate in America far better than G I. No need to risk life . Will not risk life . Hence greatest weakness in their air war . Have to build super survivable planes . Expensive . To convince a " pilot " to get in plane . Must be super plane . Like super man . How many pilot Russia or Iran can loose without loosing the psychological battle ? Hundreds or thousands . Why ? Because they are defending their children . So for us must be practical planes . Those that our pilots will kill and die in . At modest cost . Great in number . Theirs is superman cars and planes . Flying in orbit . Never seeing the enemy . Living forever .

"We cut approximately $600 million off the F-35 fighter," US President Donald Trump said Monday at the White House, adding that it “only amounts to 90 planes,” referring to the tenth and largest order of the costly jets.

They say they saved 600 mil with the current order of 90 aircraft... that does not mean they were buying 90 aircraft for a total of 600 million... that would make them just over 6.5 million each aircraft.

the likely penalties and reduced production numbers probably means each plane just got more expensive by about 20 million per aircraft... but by reducing this order they shaved 600 million off the order cost.

It is like promising to buy 100 bombers and so the price is set at 200 million per aircraft... but then the price starts increasing so the customer says they only want 50. The maker has to recover their costs in fewer airframes so the price jumps to 350 million per aircraft.

The original 100 bombers would be 20 billion at 200 million each, but by reducing the overall numbers to 50 but increasing the price to 350 million each results in the cost becoming 17.5 billion. Yeah... you save 2.5 billion dollars but you only get half as many aircraft...

You can spin that to mean operational costs will be half but they wont because maintaining half as many aircraft will cost more than trying to operate twice as many...

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

They say they saved 600 mil with the current order of 90 aircraft... that does not mean they were buying 90 aircraft for a total of 600 million... that would make them just over 6.5 million each aircraft.

the likely penalties and reduced production numbers probably means each plane just got more expensive by about 20 million per aircraft... but by reducing this order they shaved 600 million off the order cost.

It is like promising to buy 100 bombers and so the price is set at 200 million per aircraft... but then the price starts increasing so the customer says they only want 50. The maker has to recover their costs in fewer airframes so the price jumps to 350 million per aircraft.

The original 100 bombers would be 20 billion at 200 million each, but by reducing the overall numbers to 50 but increasing the price to 350 million each results in the cost becoming 17.5 billion. Yeah... you save 2.5 billion dollars but you only get half as many aircraft...

You can spin that to mean operational costs will be half but they wont because maintaining half as many aircraft will cost more than trying to operate twice as many...

I just said the save of 600mil was achieved on order of 90 borts... not sure where did you get something else from my post

F-35A at the exercise "Red Flag": through 15 to 1 in favor of them in aerial combat with the "aggressors"

According to David Cenciotti in his blog "The Aviationist ', the latest drill fifth generation fighter Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II US Air Force for the first time took part in the bilateral Air Force exercise" Red Flag 17-01 "in Nevada and as of February 3, 2017 year announced an impressive score of 15 to 1 in his favor in mock battles with fighters Lockheed Martin F-16 parts of "aggressors".

Combat units on fighter F-35A for the first time involved in the exercise series "Red Flag". In these exercises "Red Flag 17-01", launched on January 23 Nellis AFB in Nevada and its ranges, involving fighter F-35A from the 388 th and 419 th Fighter Wing airbase Hill (Utah). During the eight days of flight during the exercise involved 13 fighter F-35A made 110 sorties, and January 30 was carried out 18 missions - first group of ten aircraft, and after his return - again a group of eight aircraft. During the exercise, no one scheduled flight F-35A was canceled for technical reasons, and the overall level of technical readiness of these aircraft was 92%, compared to the willingness of 70 to 85% of the previous generation fighter in the US Air Force.

The greatest attention is attracted by the results of mock battles with F-35A denotes enemy fighters F-16 parts of "aggressors". It is stated that the ratio of "downed" in these battles was 15 to 1 in favor of the F-35A. At the same time it noted that the F-35A achieved this result, acting in cooperation with the fighter Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor, denotes a cover for F-35A in solving their problems. The contribution of F-22A to the success of F-35A aircraft in the last fights remains unclear. At the same time it is noted that the high situational awareness of pilots F-35A due to the presence in their airplanes variety of advanced lighting situation and the mutual exchange of data systems makes it possible to avoid interception by ground or air assets enemy air defenses and successfully resist these forces.

Just spent an hour and a half reading through this, the latest analysis of the F-35 based mainly on the 2016 report by Gilmore's team. The F-35 still has a long way to go before it will be ready for combat. That was the parting message of Dr. Michael Gilmore, the now-retired Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, in his last annual report.

This is the marketing and user self justification stripped away. To any potential operator of the aircraft it will make very very sobering reading. This is a unique project, no-one will ever do this again.

Wonder if there will be a Government to Government cross charge on this or is the US taking the hit on behalf of Lockheed?WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — Lockheed Martin has received a more than one third of a billion dollars order for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike aircraft, including provision to correct deficiencies in planes delivered to overseas allies, the US Department of Defense announced.

USAF Operationally Deploying F-35A To Europe This Weekend For The First TimeThe move is a big milestone for the program—and a message to Russia.

The USAF will send an F-35A contingent of unknown size to Europe this weekend. The Air Force says the deployment has been planned for some time, although the timing of it is thorny: It follows increased tensions with Russia over America's Tomahawk strikes in Syria, as well as Secretary of State Rex Tillerson's chilly visit to Moscow. The mission will be the first of its kind for the USAF's F-35A variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.

The jets will be from the 388th Fighter Squadron based at Hill Air Force Base, Utah. The unit recently completed exercise Red Flag where they performed well and garnered somewhat outlandish praise from the press.

The deployment will likely mirror that of the F-22's first deployment to Europe, with follow-on deployments growing drastically in both scope and complexity. In the F-35's case, the jets will likely hopscotch around to some of the Western European countries that are slated to purchase it, giving their Air Forces a bit of a hands-on look at the aircraft's capabilities on their own turf.

It is also possible that the jets could visit NATO allies in eastern Europe, such as Poland or Romania, a move that would be seen as more aggressive when it comes to US-Russian relations. The aircraft's ability to soak of electronic intelligence could be put to good use near the Russian border, but no matter where exactly they end up, it will be a highly publicized excursion to say the least.

......It is also possible that the jets could visit NATO allies in eastern Europe, such as Poland or Romania, a move that would be seen as more aggressive when it comes to US-Russian relations. The aircraft's ability to soak of electronic intelligence could be put to good use near the Russian border, but no matter where exactly they end up, it will be a highly publicized excursion to say the least......

As if Russia didn't have enough opportunities to get the data on F-35 but every little bit helps.

Although it will be some months before Israelis start flying theirs trough Russian radar coverage so it's nice get an early start.

And did they got around to fixing issues listed in that article that JohninMK posted the other week? It's a big list.

Also, I haven't clicked on the link but since this is the thedrive.com I will assume this feel-good stronkkk piece is written by certain clown called Tyler Rogaway?

PapaDragon wrote:Also, I haven't clicked on the link but since this is the thedrive.com I will assume this feel-good stronkkk piece is written by certain clown called Tyler Rogaway?

It's just some news. If you want to be educated on the F-35, don't waste your time there.F-35s in Europe are now a reality, one that those 10 Su-35 Flankers that RuAF plans to get through 2017 will hardly address.

PapaDragon wrote:Also, I haven't clicked on the link but since this is the thedrive.com I will assume this feel-good stronkkk piece is written by certain clown called Tyler Rogaway?

It's just some news. If you want to be educated on the F-35, don't waste your time there.F-35s in Europe are now a reality, one that those 10 Su-35 Flankers that RuAF plans to get through 2017 will hardly address.

That reality would be addressed by systems that have wheels not wings.

PapaDragon wrote:Also, I haven't clicked on the link but since this is the thedrive.com I will assume this feel-good stronkkk piece is written by certain clown called Tyler Rogaway?

It's just some news. If you want to be educated on the F-35, don't waste your time there.F-35s in Europe are now a reality, one that those 10 Su-35 Flankers that RuAF plans to get through 2017 will hardly address.

That reality would be addressed by systems that have wheels not wings.

Age of dogfigts ended with Vietnam.

I guess that's why the ABM shield bases in Romania and Poland have caused so much concern.

Actually the dogfight has become rather more critical than ever before.

In the modern age with sophisticated self defence suites telling the pilots when they are under attack and by what and also dealing with most threats on their own most AAMs are not going to get the job done... at the end of the day the ability of the aircraft to turn and fight with shells rather than missiles will determine who comes home and who does not.

Obviously very bad news for the F-35...

I guess that's why the ABM shield bases in Romania and Poland have caused so much concern.

The ABM shield in Romania and Poland is a concern because it directly violates the INF treaty... it is a ground based cruise missile launcher and the ABM component is directed against Russian missiles and not those of Iran or North Korea... or Syria.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

Six F-35A Lightning II belonging to the 34th FS from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, have arrived at RAF Lakenheath.

On Apr. 15, the F-35A 14-5094/HL, 14-5096/HL, 14-5096/HL, 14-5097/HL, 14-5102/HL, 14-5098/HL and 14-5072/HL arrived at Royal Air Force Lakenheath, England, for the first overseas training deployment to Europe of the U.S. Air Force’s Joint Strike Fighter.

The aircraft belong to the 34th Fighter Squadron, 388th Fighter Wing and the Air Force Reserve’s 466th Fighter Squadron, 419th Fighter Wing, Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and will conduct air training over the next several weeks with other Europe-based aircraft in support of the European Reassurance Initiative.

The transatlantic flight was supported by Air Mobility Command and the 100th Air Refueling Wing, from RAF Mildenhall, England. Multiple air refueling aircraft from four different bases offloaded more than 400,000 pounds of fuel during the “tanker bridge” from the United States to Europe, according to the U.S. Air Force. C-17 and C-5 aircraft moved airlift support, moving maintenance equipment and personnel.

“RAF Lakenheath will be the first overseas beddown location for the F-35A, this deployment allows our pilots and maintainers to learn more about the European operating environment and will improve our interoperability with partners in the region” said Gen. Tod D. Wolters, U.S. Air Forces in Europe, Air Forces Africa commander in a USAF release.

Interestingly, as done by USAF combat planes deployed to Europe as part of Theater Security Packages (TSPs), the F-35s will forward deploy to NATO nations to maximize training opportunities, build partnerships with allied air forces and gain a broad familiarity of Europe’s diverse operating conditions.

Actually the dogfight has become rather more critical than ever before.

In the modern age with sophisticated self defence suites telling the pilots when they are under attack and by what and also dealing with most threats on their own most AAMs are not going to get the job done... at the end of the day the ability of the aircraft to turn and fight with shells rather than missiles will determine who comes home and who does not.

Obviously very bad news for the F-35...

I guess that's why the ABM shield bases in Romania and Poland have caused so much concern.

The ABM shield in Romania and Poland is a concern because it directly violates the INF treaty... it is a ground based cruise missile launcher and the ABM component is directed against Russian missiles and not those of Iran or North Korea... or Syria.

Actually cannon is becoming more of a legacy in dogfight, dogfight with IR missiles is what we have been seeing last 3 decades in local conflicts. In visual range combat is a dogfight by definition, however it changed from what we imagine when someone says dogfight and we remember WW2 and WW1, that time is long gone.

However maneuvering in 20-25km a square is far from gone, majority of air to air kills actually were from less than 40km range though last 3 decades and if aware of your presence oponent can force you into IR dance which is dogfight of this era.

Actually cannon is becoming more of a legacy in dogfight, dogfight with IR missiles is what we have been seeing last 3 decades in local conflicts.

IR guided missiles are very capable but the next generation aircraft will have DIRCMS and even anti missile missiles... ie their own IIR guided missiles will be able to shoot down enemy missiles... and what happens then...

Local conflicts usually consist of one superpower vs third world country that might or might not even have an air force so to speak.

When talking about the future of air combat even poor countries can afford modern missiles and have modern self defence systems to a degree.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

Was going to say that active defense systems similar to what is on tanks, could be integrated in the future on fighter jets and would be actually a cheap alternative to than having the plane just get shot down. Might be crude but once those missiles run out, maneuverability and aircrafts gun will be a blessing.

miketheterrible wrote:Was going to say that active defense systems similar to what is on tanks, could be integrated in the future on fighter jets and would be actually a cheap alternative to than having the plane just get shot down. Might be crude but once those missiles run out, maneuverability and aircrafts gun will be a blessing.

Once an F-35 has fired its small load of AAM its a potential sitting duck for a proper gun armed dogfighter. It could try to outrun it

Morfei is a small IIR guided missile with a lock on after launch capability so it can be fired from a weapon pylon on an aircraft or from the closed launch bay of a stealth fighter... or bomber for that matter.

It will also be used in a vertical launch tube from a ship as a CIWS as the last line of defence for ships.

There will also be an Army version.

Imagine an Su-35 going up against several F-35s... the Su-35 will have an AESA radar to jam radar homing missiles with pure brute force... a 20kw peak power radar beam directly into the nose of an AMRAAM will blow its mind.

DIRCMs will defeat even the most sophisticated IIR seeker. Morfei missiles can deal with anything else the F-35 can deliver except cannon shells.

Once the F-35s have run out of missiles that leaves a turning fight with the Flankers... my money would be on the Flankers to be honest.

Either way both aircraft have the countermeasures to defeat each others missiles... the F-35 has neither the speed or manouver capability to escape the Flanker... and it carries... what... 6 AAMs?

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

I am not the one to jump on bandwagons or anything but for overrun costs alone they could have upgraded F-22, restart it's production, buy as many as they need and still have enough cash to purchase small naval fleet...