I can't find where Trump used the term "Muslim ban" - where did he say that?

He didn't and it's not a ban. It's a temporary suspension of immigration from countries deemed to have a high risk of terrorist threat until a more formal recommendation can be made.

Now it does leave room for person's belonging to minority religions in the country (think Christians) to migrate due to persecution.

I may not agree with his policies but will admit its a well crafted, comprehensive document that covers a broad range of directives. I still think the majority of it is PR and that judgment on it's effectiveness should be reserved until we see the final recommendations and ultimately if, in the long run, we are safer or not as a result.

If you're quibbling about "shutdown" vs "ban" they are functionally the same. I was responding to more nonsense abouts leftist conspiracy when it is clear that the label is the direct result of what he said.

What he said was "We must suspend immigration from regions linked with terrorism until a proven vetting method is in place."

He did clarify his (at the time) recommendation several times, when the media pressed him on it.

He didn't and it's not a ban. It's a temporary suspension of immigration from countries deemed to have a high risk of terrorist threat until a more formal recommendation can be made.

Now it does leave room for person's belonging to minority religions in the country (think Christians) to migrate due to persecution.

I may not agree with his policies but will admit its a well crafted, comprehensive document that covers a broad range of directives. I still think the majority of it is PR and that judgment on it's effectiveness should be reserved until we see the final recommendations and ultimately if, in the long run, we are safer or not as a result.

Every country has the right to control its borders and decide who it will allow entry.

That is one of the reasons behind the visa system.

So while I have nothing as such against the ban, it just seems exceptionally badly thought through.

It does not include countries such as Afghanistan, Algeria, Morocco, Lebanon, Palestine (yes they have pass ports), Pakistan, Indonesia.

Those countries above are where a large number of terrorists are born (hold passport), additionally the majority are rife with corruption and places like Pakistan loads of fake passports.

Adding Iran seems strange, they are fighting against ISIS and there were a large number that fled Iran during their revolution, a large majority being highly educated and linked to U.K., French US companies since the revolution.

If it is down to needing a better way to vet people, then I guess more countries need to be added, as I imagine majority of Central African countries suck on controls.

If it is Muslim and / or terrorism, then say so and ban the correct full number of countries.

The current order just seems a very botched attempt by some clown that has not had an impact analysis carried out.

This should have been phased in over a number of weeks and not as it has been.

The restrictions stated in the executive order are not that extreme, the issue is it's being implemented differently.

There is nothing that says people with green cards can't return, it is crazy that they are blocking people with green cards. Those people were already vetted multiple times.

Families with green cards that went on vacation are now stuck. Again that isn't what the order states, but for some reason the administration isn't doing anything about it.

There are several issues, all make the trump administration look incompetent.

Green cards were supposed to not be an issue but bannon said no.
Giuliani said trump asked him to help make a "muslim ban that looks legal"
No lawyers had a chance to go through the EO
DHS didnt even have a heads up what was going to go down.

I think I've had it with this guy. I'm a moderate Conservative who didn't vote for either candidate, but did favor Trump only marginally. I wanted to give him a chance but this whole entire thing is ridiculous.

Bush did this after 9/11 which made perfect sense, but right now there hasn't been any recent terror attacks that call for such drastic action. The attacks that have been done here were from home-grown terrorists. Even if he were to just ban or reduce the number of refugees it would have made a little more sense, but now green card holders are screwed too. Absolutely short-sighted and unnecessary. This is a real shame.

I think I've had it with this guy. I'm a moderate Conservative who didn't vote for either candidate, but did favor Trump only marginally. I wanted to give him a chance but this whole entire thing is ridiculous.

Bush did this after 9/11 which made perfect sense, but right now there hasn't been any recent terror attacks that call for such drastic action. The attacks that have been done here were from home-grown terrorists. Even if he were to just ban or reduce the number of refugees it would have made a little more sense, but now green card holders are screwed too. Absolutely short-sighted and unnecessary. This is a real shame.

Right great approach there. Wait till they attack again then react. To be successful at war on must be proactive not just reactive. Last recent attack by foreign nationals was the Boston bombing, which was in 2013. Both of the attackers where born in chechnya.

I think I've had it with this guy. I'm a moderate Conservative who didn't vote for either candidate, but did favor Trump only marginally. I wanted to give him a chance but this whole entire thing is ridiculous.

Bush did this after 9/11 which made perfect sense, but right now there hasn't been any recent terror attacks that call for such drastic action. The attacks that have been done here were from home-grown terrorists. Even if he were to just ban or reduce the number of refugees it would have made a little more sense, but now green card holders are screwed too. Absolutely short-sighted and unnecessary. This is a real shame.

So, you'd rather wait until there is an attack before we put a clamp down on refugees?

I think I've had it with this guy. I'm a moderate Conservative who didn't vote for either candidate, but did favor Trump only marginally. I wanted to give him a chance but this whole entire thing is ridiculous.

Bush did this after 9/11 which made perfect sense, but right now there hasn't been any recent terror attacks that call for such drastic action. The attacks that have been done here were from home-grown terrorists. Even if he were to just ban or reduce the number of refugees it would have made a little more sense, but now green card holders are screwed too. Absolutely short-sighted and unnecessary. This is a real shame.

There were three attacks in September from "refugees" - MN, NY, and OH.

Take another look at the "home grown" terrorists - of the minority that were born here, most of them are the children of radicals that were allowed to immigrate to the US in the 80's and '90's.

There are 4 Migrant centers in the town where I live and can attest to this. The migrants have destroyed the places that they are living in (old American Army Housing areas) the bordering communities have seen crime rates increase 200% and people are scared to go out in the night because of regular events that the local governments cover up as the standard. The police ( I have a few friends in the German Polizei) have their hands tied by the government as well, Arrest, record the name (most of the time more of an alias) and then sent them on their way...

To put it into perspective, 3 years ago only the Police had pepper spray (more like pepper joke) now the stuff is being sold in the grocery stores. Oh, Forgot to mention, if you do actually use pepper spray to defend yourself you can almost expect to be prosecuted for bodily injury if the attacker chooses to push charges against you...

I think David's post is important. I was born in Pakistan. It's not on the list but it easily could be. I am not going to talk of the merits of this temporary ban of 90 days for visas or 120 days for refugees.

What I am going to say is that as a Canadian brown dude of Pakistani birth - I am no longer visiting Europe. I think it's unsafe as David points out and due to my skin colour I do not wish to be confused for an Immigrant or Refugee in Europe.

I am also probably going to curtail my US visits until this sorts itself out. I do not wish to put myself at the mercy of The Department of Homeland Security - even though I am an atheist and have nothing to hide.

There are 4 Migrant centers in the town where I live and can attest to this. The migrants have destroyed the places that they are living in (old American Army Housing areas) the bordering communities have seen crime rates increase 200% and people are scared to go out in the night because of regular events that the local governments cover up as the standard. The police ( I have a few friends in the German Polizei) have their hands tied by the government as well, Arrest, record the name (most of the time more of an alias) and then sent them on their way...

To put it into perspective, 3 years ago only the Police had pepper spray (more like pepper joke) now the stuff is being sold in the grocery stores. Oh, Forgot to mention, if you do actually use pepper spray to defend yourself you can almost expect to be prosecuted for bodily injury if the attacker chooses to push charges against you...

I think David's post is important. I was born in Pakistan. It's not on the list but it easily could be. I am not going to talk of the merits of this temporary ban of 90 days for visas or 120 days for refugees.

What I am going to say is that as a Canadian brown dude of Pakistani birth - I am no longer visiting Europe. I think it's unsafe as David points out and due to my skin colour I do not wish to be confused for an Immigrant or Refugee in Europe.

I am also probably going to curtail my US visits until this sorts itself out. I do not wish to put myself at the mercy of The Department of Homeland Security - even though I am an atheist and have nothing to hide.

Are you going to visit Pakistan? Would it be a problem there that you are an atheist?

I think I've had it with this guy. I'm a moderate Conservative who didn't vote for either candidate, but did favor Trump only marginally. I wanted to give him a chance but this whole entire thing is ridiculous.

Bush did this after 9/11 which made perfect sense, but right now there hasn't been any recent terror attacks that call for such drastic action. The attacks that have been done here were from home-grown terrorists. Even if he were to just ban or reduce the number of refugees it would have made a little more sense, but now green card holders are screwed too. Absolutely short-sighted and unnecessary. This is a real shame.

So, you'd rather wait until there is an attack before we put a clamp down on refugees?

Honestly yes. Because there hasn't been a major attack from one of those countries. On top of that look at the countries that are absent. We already have the most extensive screening process to get in the US. Want more vetting? Fine. Put that in place. But a shutdown is just giving into fear.

In the end it doesn't matter. It will be challenged in the courts and will be struck down. As well it should.