This kind of like a 50-50 agreement on this...ooohhh 40-60 agreement. So maybe ahhh...."Aikido-Plus"

1) There is no question that evasion is the key principle in surviving a multiple attackers. Stay and fight just one? For just a few seconds? And you are probably smothered. And if simple evasion at times looks like Aikido. Then so be it. But It can also look like football practice drills. If given my druthers, I would rather rely on football practice drills than an Aikido practice drills. (I have said for many years that a there is a lot of Aikido in a Sunday afternoon football game when real power and drive is delivered- but they are not striking or punching - which leads me to number 2.

2) I would say that I have little regard for the quality of attacker that most aikido practitioners commonly deliver. He will "attack" like an aikido person. Just brainwashed to do so. By quality, I mean non-system viciousness. Better to test it by being attacked by four UFC practitioners. These could be rookie practioners. I feel certain their attack would be quite different in purpose and intensity.

3) Too many systems do have distorted solutions for multiple opponents. And they do highlight the wrong options like stopping and fighting each person as a priority. The doctrine must follow probablity factors. And evasion and orderly retreat do have the highest success rates.

4) So, the evasion factor is in Aikido. One of my aiki-jitsu intructors loved aikido and I am not unfamilair with it. I personnaly wouldn't waste a single second doing Aikido. People have to love the art and the fad and the feel of it. And thats fine. It is not for me. But if I was worried about fighting multiple opponents? Or fighting in general? I wouldn't be doing Aikido. I would be looking for "Aikido-Plus" and the "Plus" words which starts to become other systems.

I shudder to think I would have to do all that AIkido stuff and rituals just to have a system that best evades four attackers. High price to pay, especially when I could run some football drills, or just buy and work on....

Movement is the key in all multiple attacker situations.As said by Hock,stop and fight one,or spend too long with one and you end up being swarmed,and then downed.

I did Aikido for almost 5 years,I like Aikido and Hvae Respect for those who do it.I have done Hapkido as my base art now for over 12 years.The core of both being very similar though the intent of contact is different,depending on the style of aikido,whether they include use of Strikes or not,while Gross motor skill striking is a part of Hapkido as is Joint manipulations.

Randori is a pressure test,similar to swarming in Krav Maga and other arts.If one can learn to respond and move against an overwhelming group,with out going down,when in an altercation against a smaller group to singular opponent the fight sequence should come easier.

When one is engaged with multiple attackers one cannot soften an attacker and spend time trying to lock them up,trying to get them in pain compliance or to throw them.

One must act with Gross motor skills ,grab,push,pull,punch,palm heel,chop,elbow,knee or low kick.In traditional Aikido of Ueshiba's later years many of these skills are not as trained for combat as are REACTIONARY techniques in regard to grabs,or dealing with punches or strikes from a singular opponent.

Nothing against Aikido or any other art,if one does not train realistic attacks with realistic responses then when confronted in a Real situation one will FAIL to produce a desired outcome ,due to faulty input and faulty expectations of an expected,yet unrealistic, outcome.

I like the Football analogy by Hock for the Physical Intensity of Immediate Action as well as the mindset to flip the switch when the time comes to ACT.

In a Multiple Attack one must GO AFTER and HUNT Down the attackers and Hurt them with Immediate consequence,one cannot react only and wait for them to come to us.

I would like to hear Nick's thought on this, I've "heard/seen" him mention something about a dark Aikido seminar before.In my brief experience with Aikido much of the atemi(sp?) was thought more as a distracting hit in order to get the grab, take the balance etc. But I did enjoy and appreciate its focus on being centred and evasion (looking forward to one day return to training).

« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 12:45:16 PM by rasdj »

Logged

I exhort you also to take part in the great combat, which is the combat of life, and greater than every other earthly combat.--Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

I think randori is a good starting point for multiple opponent trainingthe challenge with any drill or training method is like a calculus equationas you approach realism you also approach the limits of safety, but you don't want to go beyondthat limit, as the skill level of the participants increases you can get closer and closer to that limityou cant practice the lethal variations of aikido techniques to their full extentbut it is important to make the psychological connection during practiceand train to see the opportunities for those techniques...

the Iriminage that crushes a windpipe...

the Ganseki Otoshi that lands the guy on his head...

keep it moving , keep it simple , rob them of function (sight,breath,mobility,etc)

I agree with Hock that it's important for those who are only interested in self defense / combat to be ableto remove systems from their cultural context and examine the techniques , tactics andtraining methods from a purely practical and scientific standpointAikido is a great art, but if combat/self-defenseis top priority then the learning curvefor aikido is too steep, not to mentionit's difficult to find teachers who teach a combative form of aikido

Haven't seen the multiple opponents DVD yetmore than likely will be my next purchase

Combative styled Aikido uses the SAME techniques as Ueshiba's Later years compliant applications,one just needs to find seriuos practicioners and or Serious people to make the techniques usable.

In Multiples an Iriminage is doable if trained right.The throat crush is a little extreme and most likely not truely doable in a multiple attack as one would have to strike the upper chest first to get the chin up enough for contact.In a street scenario ,with multiples,I would deliver the Iriminage to the chin,face or forehead and get the same result,of driving the opponent back,up and hopefully hitting their head on the sidewalk.

The Ganseki Otoshi is not a move I would make in a multiple attack,nor would I ever use it at all on the street.

Most Randori is TOO Compliant ,again depending on the school,as most attackers do not want to be hurt so they throw themselves or fall as soon as touched.

If one deals with a multiple attack ,and say they are punched at by an attacker,if they attempt a simple wrist lock take down throw,where do the Ukis go,they flip themselves,but in Reality where does the attacker Go,down to their knee/s in front of you,so the problem is still there facing you,at groin level with a still free functioning arm to grab a leg or smash you into the groin,not down and away as in the Dojo so you can deal with another.

You take Sight,Breath and Mobility through the Atemi/the Strikes.

Example of my application to a charging right hand punch in a multiple attack:

Step to the outside,my left hand passing the opponents punch to his center line downward angle,my right arm performs the Iriminage/clothsline type move,catching the face,nose to forehead,rotate to downward angle and drive head to ground while sweeping oppents right leg.orStep to the outside,my left hand passing the opponents punch to the inside,my right hand Palm heels to the chin,sliding up into the nose ,fingers driving into the eyes while simultaneously crushing the nearest knee to the ground,driving the opponent straight down and head backward,simultaneously,hopefully head will hit the ground ,if not ,the knee crush will keep him/her out of the rest of the fight.

You make some excellent pointsGanseki Otoshi is a "show off" techniqueI think it's doable but honestly not worth the riskThe wind pipe may make itself availableduring iriminage, if not you can create an oportunity to get to it

Aikido, which was originally called Aiki-Budowas very combative in the eraly days of it'sdevelopment. I think as Ueshiba maturedand became more spiritual , his applicationsreflected his change in mindset. The problem is people dont realize thatthis man spent his entire life as a martial artistin the truest sense , he was not a hobbyistas most of us are. he lived and breathed it.it would be foolish to think that someone could get on themat and do the things he could do withoutputing in the decades of work that he put into get to the level of skill he was at

there is a book called the hidden roots of aikidothat gives an interesting breakdownof the 3 levels of application of Aiki techniquesO - Sensei was always at the highest level

Yes Ueshiba went through many stages of development of his art and enlightenment,the more enlightened the more compliant the art became.

Ueshiba first taught aiki Jujjutsu as learned from his past Jujitsu training and from Takeda.Ueshiba's style then was ALOT of Attacks/Atemi/Strikes and the art though circular was also Very Linear in its straight forward attacks,seen in Tomiki styled Aikido,which represents Ueshiba and Tomiki's thoughts on combat.

Then in the 1930's Ueshiba fought a naval Officer armed with a wooden sword,Ueshiba defeated him and left him un harmed.Ueshiba was then said to have had a vision ,his first period of enlightenment,he said he was touched by God and then started to change his art.(it became Ueshiba Ryu then Aiki Budo)This change was commented on By Kano founder of Judo,who when he saw Ueshiba's art said,"That Is Judo".

ueshiba then had another period of enlightenment just before the start of WWII,he made further changes to a more peaceful art then.

After the War he created Aikido the ultimate complimentary/Friendly Art,in which all practioners agreed to train in Harmony.

Depending on when an Instructor or Instructors Instructor learned,that is the period of attack or lack of attack shown in the art.

Again though,the core of the Art is there and all one needs is to train it without compliance,but still with a degree of safety and respect for the Partners to get a street usable art.(once this is done the art when then look more like traditional Jujitsu or Hapkido as Taught by Choi)

Good Luck with your Aikido and your future training and self enlightenment of direction of need of the art for you.

Or maybe put another way "What is the differnce between Aikido & Aikijujuitsu?

A lot. If I had to pick a martial art as a favorite, it would be aiki-jitsu. All the punching, striking, then when the bad guy was stunned and wounded, jointlocks and takedowns.

I often get asked what of any was my favorite art, and they all think I will answer some Filipino system? But oh no. Aiki-jitsu is it. To me it had "karate" in it. Jujitsu in it.

Kajukenbo is versitle and great, but it has a different international flavor than Aiki-jitsu. Kaju is kind of ..."island-ey." If you have a penchant for the Japanese approach, as I do, I have to select Aiki-jitsu, but just by a skinny few hairs. Its a flavor thing.

Aikido is a lifestyle, a way to live with peace and understanding.

Aiki-Jutsu used Zen Buddism, largely, to:

a) balance their livesb) focus, focus, focus on everything at hand, that includes the steps in whooping and killing folks.

Another reason is the zen thing. I appreciate the Zen approach and it fascinates me. In the end? We don't know the truth of religion and the universe. So lets just sit down and enjoy some tea. Thus the tea ritual. (which coffee is fine for me, or maybe some Seagrams VO? ANybody?)

I'll throw in my 2 euros worth (but a lot of what I'd say has been said).

To begin with, asking about the efficacy of Aikido is a bit like talking about "karate." Who's karate, who's Aikido. I've seen karate styles that were complete jokes...little six year olds wearing black belts, nap times for adult students etc and I've seen the other end such as Kyokushin and the Zen Do Kai that I studied.

Aikido fits the same bill. At one end of the spectrum you have some tree hugging, birkenstock wearing, tofu slurping, granola munching, friends of the whales apt to be lying aroun on Norwegian Pine habitat scatter cushions soaking in Yoga infusions while admiring the candles who fall over for each other. At the other end there's the "Angry White Pyjamas" of the Yoshinkan group who have the distinction of training the Imperial Palace Body guards and the Tokyo Met Riot Police. I've done elements of both and Yoshinkan is good stuff.

To touch on it a bit that's because, as Jim mentioned, Shioda left Ueshiba after he began claiming communication with God. To look at Shioda's Aikido then is to see it as it was done back then, before the lunacy set in. There isn't a single technique in Shioda's book on Aikido that doesn't begin without a strike to the head.

I spoke with one of his black belts once who told us about Shioda's trip to a Hong Kong brothel with another Japanese businessman. They got into it with some Triad types in a dispute over the bill and Shioda said "I kicked the first one in the nuts, headbutted the 2nd one and hit the third one with an elbow before kicking him down the stairs."

In another interview, one of his top black belts had just come out of a 3 day coma after taking a fall for Shioda at a demo. He was asked what throw Shioda had used to cause him to hit his head so hard as to ko him and the black belts said "A footsweep." The interviewer said "I didn't know there were any footsweeps in Aikido" and the black belt replied "Until that moment, neither did I."

So, which Aikido are we talking about?

Here's what I like about it...

Pros. It's the only art that doesn't train to beat it's own practitioners. (In other words boxers train to beat boxers, Judoka train to beat Judoka, and MMA guys train to beat MMA guys. Aikido does no training - until 3rd dan at least - against it's own techniques.)The big 3 attacks, the overhead Shomen-Uchi, the haymaking Yokomen and the tsuki are all fairly representative of street attacks.

Its' the only art designed to control and restrain someone as opposed to fuck them up.

You can practice it way into your eighties if you're so inclined.

It does teach good evasive footwork.

Cons: It doesn't do any groundwork

It doesn't teach you to get out of holds

Its knife defenses are unrealistic because they're counting on the japanese 100% commited style attack and 95% of the world don't fight that way.

Can it be made to work? Oh yes. I've got a mate, smallish guy called Richard who's a cop in Wilmington and he's been into practical Aikido for years (used to be the 2IC for the guy who ran the "Dark Side" seminars) and he uses it just about every weekend on drunks and yahoos. It's never failed him yet. That man made a beleiver out of me as to its efficacy providing you find the right school and the right teacher.

Nick

Logged

Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking. --Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

I have a friend from New Zealand who is quite an impressive athlete. Tall. Muscular. Black belt in Taw Kwon Do. And BB in ARnis is which is how I first met him, in the Phillipines. He was quite impressive.

He worked as a waiter and at the British embassy in Tokoyo, Japan for 5 years and obsessively attended nightly AIkido classes. He attained his 1st Dan BB, then moved to Manila to conquer Arnis. He has worked with me there and in the USA a few times.

Anyway he always comeserated about Aikido. He couldn't seem to make it really work, especially against the various styles he had trained in. That solutions he found in other martial arts were smarter and more effective solutions than his Aikido training. He would often say, that he would have to return to Japan for a few years to get his second degree in hopes that he could somehow...and I quote, "make Aikido really work."

I found this curious because the guy could fight like hell. We all routinely sparred. (he also worked almost twice as hard, committed to returning to and using very classical movements and positions. He would literally wear himself out because of the extra effort he took to look traditional and classical. He wouldn't just kick box, he would look and move like a classical, old-school martial artist. I would tell him, "Man, you are killing yourself with all these extra movements." Gasping, he had no idea what I was talking about. But they came for ALL of his martials arts.

Anyway, now we can always ask...was that particular school deficient? Not according to my friend but who really knows?

And you have to think, Nick's bouncer firiend who used Aikido every week. Did it really evolve for him? Was he eventually really doing a ...a..."Bouncer Aikido?" that he modified, based on on the better parts of Aikido? Are those better parts, the universal essence of combat anyway? That is the better parts of all arts? Do all these things that really work, evolve and weave into the essence of combat, the better parts of all arts?

Officer Price would be very miffed at being referred to as a bouncer. He's a police officer and very proud of it having begun the career after age 45.

2nd point: Again, what style of Aikido did the kiwi do in Japan? They have their share of the wishy washy stuff too.

3rd point: Ueshiba didn't teach the atemi because he originally was teaching black belts from Judo and Karate styles who already knew how to punch and kick (remember old Judo had atemi after shodan)...he considered time spent on striking redundant. Later on, when the art got hijacked by the "earth-biscuits" they continued on not striking, the difference being they didn't know how anyway. hence the demise of the art.

According to a story I read by Shioda (who was incensed at the tofu crowd) "they go on about harmony as if it means love. A rock, standing in the ocean being battered by waves, is in harmony with the ocean. Love has nothing to do with it."

He also believed ki was nothing more than the moment when everything just gelled i.e. the timing, the power, the balance and the attacker.

N

Logged

Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking. --Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Nick and Hock=Good thougts from both-please go into some more detail as this is very interesting-gives one a lot to think about-actually i pesonnaly feel that in all martial art systems you got the right and the left and the ones who really shine are the students who adopt (as Hock says) to their position/job/circumstances they find them selves in.The little guy who is 6 years old and his folks start him out in traditional karate is on the path if carried along during the growth period-one day he finds himself in a situation where all the past assists him in survival (even if he does not reolize it)-hope i am not rambling-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)..

According to a story I read by Shioda (who was incensed at the tofu crowd) "they go on about harmony as if it means love. A rock, standing in the ocean being battered by waves, is in harmony with the ocean. Love has nothing to do with it."

He also believed ki was nothing more than the moment when everything just gelled i.e. the timing, the power, the balance and the attacker.

N

If looking for effectiveness is the key, lets say we take Shioda version of O-Sensei art & the original aikijujitsu. 1st - it does not sound like they were to far from each other.....True?2nd - How long do you guys think on a realistic bases would it take Joe average to apply what he learns in either art?3rd - How would we need to change the training to speed up that time frame?

From what I have seen of Aikijujitsu, it is not very different from the Bujinknan Budo Taijutsu I studied. I have a friend who is an Aiki teacher (godan, I believe), and from what I have seen from him, the joint locks, throws, and strikes are very, very similar. I'm sure there are differences, but they appear to be more alike than different. With all of the faults in Budo Taijutsu, I used it with great success as a cop for many years, and found the joint locking techniques very practical.

Logged

**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

The Core principals are the same whether from the straight line atemi mixed with circular movements and locks after MAKING the Opponent comply orIf it is straight up compliant,Harmonious ,Friendly Aikido.

I know a guy near me who sells and teaches Aikido as a NON CONTACT Martial Art and he has a good sized group of Business men who want to SAY they are martial artists but do not want to BE Martial Artists.

It would be Great if One Knew what they were looking for and could go to and find Hardcore stylists ,of what ever art,but the Reality is if you end up at a Compliant or sport based school the skill sets and techniques are the same ,to perfect them for what you need them for requires work on your part to make it fill that need.

A person can say "I can play basketball".Now we would all assume that person means Full Court ,Full Team Games with pressure when moving or shooting,What if that person means they have a net in the driveway and go out there and shoot from different sections of the drive way?They still play basketball.

Tae Kwon Do,Aikido,Tai Chi,what ever the Art ,they can all be made street usable if one is willing to work on testing it and making it work for that need.

Example:At my school my Instructor is a retired Police Officer ,so he teaches the art within the confines of the Law.

I on the other hand teach with a different tact,do what ever needs to be done to go home.If you can pull or push them off balance or Hurt them right away and get out do it.

I teach the students the same techniques as my Instructor,I just give them a variation that they can take and use or not depending on them.

I enter in to use my body to cause pain,I strick to hurt,I kick to break or crush (not to distract) I try to find ways to injure and cause pain on entries,(Like entry into a center lock,Kick into the knee,crush it,elbows to the ribs as I pass between the opponents body and arm,do not hold the pain compliance move use it to inflict more pain and then Break the arm)

Same materials,same school,two slightly different variations of the same applications of the same techniques.

Yeah, whoops, I don't know why I said a bouncer, it read "cop." I walked away for a few hours and came back and got it confused with another friend of Nick's that I remembered him talking about.

I saw one of these cop fights the other day on one of the police-only video websites and a cop fought two guys in a traffic stop. The driver started the fight, the passenger joined in. At one on point the passsenger got a shovel from the back of the truck.

The cop did quite well, actually. You might say he did some "Aikido." He was a bit bigger than both of them, but actually seemed to toss the guys off, but (as a problem with much aikido) they got tosed off and returned again and again and again. Meanwhile, the cop was punched several times, one real slammer right in the face.

He actually won with his expandable baton and then his pistol, and his radio. He actually won when another back-up responded and got there.

The thought occured to me...jeez...don't cops punch anymore? Well, the answer is no, not much. Like AIkido. If we look at the dashboards cop cams these days, and the other location films of the baliff being grounded n' pounded in the February Dispatches, we see cops rolling around, clinching without mission, not punching, trying to toss off the attacker. In fact, minus some token punching and kicking at the police academy, the martial training is like an Aikido. All methods inherently save and preserve the suspect (until the gun comes out).

The point I was trying to make in that last post and failed is that my Kiwi friend (New Zealander) was the kind of perfectionist that would not meld or blend systems and would fight that way. In his "Aikido reponses" he was able to resort to pure AIkido. Same with the Tae Kwon Do he did and Arnis. He had an internal view of it all. Compared to the other systems, he could not make the Aikido work as well. It perplexed him. He refuses "AIkido-plus."

While the Bouncer, I mean police officers are doing Aikido, and actually using its better Rugby, Footie, Football aspects and they are also winning at times with batons, scary threats, guns, tazers, radios and back up as finishers. Melting it into a practical world. Applying it. Something my kiwi friend, the purist I know, could not do.

Aikido... Plus! What else worked! AIkido..plus! When is the Plus SO MUCH? That is is not Aikido anymore?

I remember a Aikido lesson lesson inside an AIki-Jitsu class where we were taught that we needed to "toss the opponent" off of you so he could "re-consider" his violence. Some folks in class nodded in wonderment. I saw myself tossing , grappling, tossing, grappling, tossing for at least 18 risky minutes. But there were kneeling to downed ground captures and armbars that are common to many systems.

Many will say, and I have found myself saying so too, that when AIkido looks extra vicious and really successful? "Oh...thats Aiki Jitsu." I would have to admit, that yes, while there is some secret chamber where people must be doing Ultimate vicious, pure AIkido, most of the Aikido I have seen worldwide comes up quite short in the big picture and "earth biscuits" may have ruined it? Well, then they have successfully ruined most of it. if someone came to me looking for self defense, Aikido would be very low on my list of suggestions. Even just brand name jujitsu would be better.

But you all have to understand. I am prejudiced against MA systems in general. As soon as you put on a class uniform, any class uniform, you are putting on a doctrine that is usually innocently or overtly closed-minded and blinded with dogma and politics. Run by humans with human faults and egos. You begin to fight against the tactics in the system. A trap. Then a West Virginia coal miner or an Aussie Footballer comes along and kicks all our asses. When we wake up, we scratch our heads. (one of the big plusses of old school Japanese training was the Navy SEAL-esque conditioning and pain tolerance, like coal miners and "Footies.")

These are all esoteric questions I have wondered about for years.

When and how does Aikido cross the line and become AIki-Jitsu? When and how does AIki-Jitsu become jujitsu?When and how does karate become kick boxing?When and how does combat hapkido look different than Japanese Jujitsu? How?When and how does police tactics look different jititsu? When and why does judo start punching training?When and how does Okinawon Karate start doing fliud king fu moves? Why?AIkido..plus! When is the "Plus" SO MUCH? That is is not really Aikido anymore?When...and how and so on and on....

There are absolutely, inevitable conclusions here. They are ugly for some. We like teams... and flavors and things. Many of the answers are in the shell (uniform) games, flavors and origin mythology. The answers have always led me to shuck off all of it, and discern the essence of combat of all them. So remember, all my answers about martial arts (and well, religion and politics) are highly uncomfortable and prejudiced. We are tribal in nature. Ethnocentric. Victims of our our geography and demographics. We pick and stick to things, argue and fight for things for many reasons other than inevitable logic. We systematically fail to see the big picture. Life should be a continual hunt for the big picture. THAT is the true purpose of education. The guidepost for humanity.

In martial arts, the structure of training and its availablility in most countries is so limited. You get shuttled into a brand name and a logo school, handed a uniform, handed DVDs and pushed into class to "do as I say!"

Like art, science, college, religion and politics. When I get a simple question like "AIkido or Jujitsu?" Best punching art? Monk Quan said... Colonel Applegate suggests... My God is thee God! Tootie-Fruities over M&Ms?....ALL this shit flies through my head and I have to just shut up, write a book-length response, or have a calming shot of good whiskey and watch the creek outside my balcony. As I get older, I am more and more drawn to the creek.

Many police DT programs do have a heavy dose of Aikido, and very few of them do include punching anymore. Very liability averse, and they are afraid to teach something that officers might use to actually hurt someone! Granted, LE needs many arrest and control techniques and tactics, but they also need some hard-core knees/elbows/strikes/kicks for when the poo-poo hits the osciallating cylinder. I use far more joint locks and pressure points in my day to day patrol duties as a Deputy, but I also have the background to escalate and pound them into the dirt if need be. Unfortunately, many cops do not, especially the new breed, many of which never played contact sports nor have been in a fight.

As Mike Tyson's famous quote goes, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth". That is a rude awakening for many.

Logged

**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda