History hello German population's knowledge of Nazi death camps.

STW hive mind I need your help..... Does anyone know of a website where I can find I primary source who did or didn't know about the gassing of the Jews? I'm trying to answer a history question about wether the German population did or didn't know about what went on at the camps.

Read some of Ian Kershaws books. I seem to remember he discusses this and references primary sources...I think the book was called "The Hitler Myth: Image and Reality in the Third Reich". Could have been one of his other books though - the book is worth getting anyway so I suggest you go and try and hunt it down before your deadline as it will certainly give you some of interesting ideas to talk about in your essay.

Goldhagen's book was meant to be an anthropological "thick description" in the manner of Clifford Geertz.[14] Goldhagen argued that there the violent antisemitic "cultural axiom" held by Martin Luther in the 16th century and expressed in his 1543 book On the Jews and Their Lies were the same as those held by Adolf Hitler in the 20th century.[15] Goldhagen argued that such was the ferocity of German "eliminationist antisemitism" that long before 1933 that the situation in Germany had been "pregnant with murder", that as regarding the Jews things had been "pregnant with murder" since the mid-19th century and that all Hitler did was merely unleash the deeply rooted murderous "elminationist antisemtism" that had brooding within the German people since Luther's time, if not earlier.[16]

Hitler's Willing Executioners marked a revisionist challenge to the prevailing orthodoxy surrounding the question of German public opinion and the "Final Solution".[17] The British historian Sir Ian Kershaw, a leading expert in the social history of the Third Reich claimed:

The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference.[18][19]

By this, Kershaw meant the progress leading up to Auschwitz was motivated by antisemitism of the most vicious kind held by the Nazi elite, but it took place in a context where the majority of German public opinion was completely indifferent to what was happening.[20] In several articles and books, most notably his 1983 book Popular Opinion and Political Dissent in the Third Reich, Kershaw argued that most Germans were at a minimum at least vaguely aware of the Holocaust, but could have cared less about what their government was doing to the Jews.[21] Though differing in many details about German public opinion from Kershaw, arguing that the term "passive complicity" is a better one than "indifference", the Israeli historian Otto Dov Kulka, the American historian Aron Rodrigue, and the Israeli historian David Bankier have largely agreed with Kershaw that there was a difference in opinion about the Jews between the Nazi "true believers" and the wider German public, whose views towards Jews seemed to have expressed more of a dislike rather than hatred of Jews.[20] Goldhagen by contrast declared the term "indifference" to be unacceptable, and instead contended that the vast majority of Germans were active antisemitics who wanted to kill Jews in the most "pitiless" and "callous" manner possible.[22]

Just don't plagiarise, go and find the books - then find the sources and make up you're own mind.

@beaker, your question is worded quite specifically, ie knowledge of gassing. I am assuming you meant it more generally. There is a lot of evidence that the German population knew that the deported Jews where likely to perish for example from lack of food or inadequate warm clothing, there is less that they where aware of the deliberate extermination (which was most pronounced at Auschwitz). There are for example current campaigns to have the German railway acknowledge their part in knowingly transporting Jews to their deaths. Some countries, like Bulgaria refused to deport their Jewsih populations despite explixit demands from the Germans to do so, they knew what was going on. You can find a lot of information searching for research using the word "Shoah"

Having studied this in history, Jam is essentially correct in saying that those who were complicit in ratting out the Jews knew the consequence of their actions i.e. death, and yet continued. However, it is unlikely they knew the details of the extermination and the torture. I think it is safe to say that the actions of Mengele and his ilk were not uncovered until later and the method of mass extermination was probably not common knowledge.

In other words, as stated so eloquently above: "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference" albeit with a dose of malice and jealousy thrown in.

However, I have just found this:

“Hitler exterminated the Jews of Europe. But he did not do so alone. The task was so enormous, complex, time-consuming, and mentally and economically demanding that it took the best efforts of millions of Germans… All spheres of life in Germany actively participated: Businessmen, policemen, bankers, doctors, lawyers, soldiers, railroad and factory workers, chemists, pharmacists, foremen, production managers, economists, manufacturers, jewelers, diplomats, civil servants, propagandists, film makers and film stars, professors, teachers, politicians, mayors, party members, construction experts, art dealers, architects, landlords, janitors, truck drivers, clerks, industrialists, scientists, generals, and even shopkeepers—all were essential cogs in the machinery that accomplished the final solution.”[13] - Konnilyn G. Feig

It would appear that the allies knew about the death camps around 1942/43.

I seem to remember being swayed by the argument that the general population knew about the camps as well and that the German population whispered about them to each other in private. I guess they might not have know about the exact method in which they were killed.

A german exchange student stayed with us 3 years ago, and told my daughter that the extermination of jews by the germams was not true, ans was made up by the allies to discredit the germans.
Unbelievable

The task was so enormous, complex, time-consuming, and mentally and economically demanding that it took the best efforts of millions of Germans…

It wasn't just the Germans, nationalities from all across occupied Europe were involved. Anti-Semitism was rife across most European countries before (and during) WW2.

And IME, still going on (about 10 years ago I was asked in Vienna if the UK had a 'Jewish problem?'). I think it is hard for the British to understand as we differentiate more based upon skin-colour, rather than creed. Therefore we see Judism more as a religion.

Visited Bergen Belsen couple of years ago........Simply unbelievable that a whole nation, and more were lead along the path they took! If anyone gets a chance to go to one of these sites I thoroughly recommend it. No films or documentaries on the tv do it justice.

Tbh the Germans were lucky. The Russians were pissed off. It could have been much much worse for the scum.

Well actually it was unlucky for many German civilians. My German auntie was raped by Russian soldiers in Berlin.

But back to the original post. I think "indifference" is a reasonable summation. I just wrote out a great deal of blurb based on my meagre knowledge of the situation from a mother who lived close to Belsen at the time and a father who was part of the occupying forces in the area after the war. Then I deleted it. It's my personal knowledge based on what I have been told and things I was taken to see as a child. It isn't definitive.

I think it is safe to say that the actions of Mengele and his ilk were not uncovered until later and the method of mass extermination was probably not common knowledge.

Given tens or hundreds of thousands of soldiers were either directly involved in, witnessed or saw the aftermath of atrocities on the Eastern front, it's considered reasonable that although the full extent wasn't know, the treatment of jews and eastern Europeans was fairly well known.

To be totally honest, the German military had a history of killing civilians in that era; their excesses in WW1 are well documented. It's hard to believe that German civilians didn't have any idea what their troops were up to.

It would appear that the allies knew about the death camps around 1942/43.

More realistically, first hand evidence appeared 43/44 with the Auschwitz Protocols written by escaped prisoners. Before then there's reason to believe intelligence was that this was going on but there was little hard evidence.

More realistically, first hand evidence appeared 43/44 with the Auschwitz Protocols written by escaped prisoners. Before then there's reason to believe intelligence was that this was going on but there was little hard evidence.

Indeed. The "final solution" as a policy wasn't announced until late 43. Had the allies known earlier you can bet your life it would have been used as propaganda. If the German public had known, the allies would have known.

My grandmother is German and in her early 80's now. When I did history at school she described to me what it was like growing up in hamburg. Hitler had won the public over with social unity such as the Hitler youth which started off with only positives. Then the propaganda built up over the years effectively brainwashing the people into believing their friends and neighbours were the enemy. She recalls people being taken away but at the time didn't know exactly where they were going or their fate.

Very true. However, the Germans started it. The initial atrocities were performed by the Nazi's. Anything that followed could be seen as retaliation. Doesn't justify it but can certainly explain it.

I read something from a Soviet soldier, who described his anger and confusion when they saw all that Germany had as they headed west. He could not understand why such a rich industrial nation had invaded his poor land.

easygirl » A german exchange student stayed with us 3 years ago, and told my daughter that the extermination of jews by the germams was not true, ans was made up by the allies to discredit the germans.
Unbelievable

They started it is a bit simplistic...the Red Army would have plundered and raped their way across Europe even without German interference......the Finnish winter war highlights that.

Yes it is simplistic. All wars have a number of factors, not one single thing starts a war. However, it was the aggression of Nazi Germany that was the single most important factor.

The Red Army were in no fit state to "plundered and raped their way across Europe." The Finnish War certainly highlights that. Although totally outnumbered and with virtually no armour, the Finns killed thousands of the invaders

It was only being faced with absolute destruction that made the USSR get their act together and push the Germans out. This was also achieved at an unbelievable cost in their soldiers lives.

They started it is a bit simplistic...the Red Army would have plundered and raped their way across Europe even without German interference......the Finnish winter war highlights that.

As stated The Winter War was a soviet war of aggression in order to take territory, add in the Katyn Massacre and the fact that the soviets were doing things to their own people every bit as bad as the Nazis did when they invaded - both sides were pretty evenly matched in terms of their atrocious attitudes and behaviour to anyone, foreign or domestic who crossed them.

However, it was the aggression of Nazi Germany that was the single most important factor.

Have you forgotten the Ribbentropp Molotov Pact ? The Germans and Russians both agreed to invade Poland and share it amongst themselves.

@aracer, i did say sort of serious, Jews seem to have been persecuted by most countries going back thousands of years. I suppose it explains why the Israelis are so paranoid, if history tells you one thing it is, basically, that everyone hates the Jews!

As stated The Winter War was a soviet war of aggression in order to take territory

Actually no. It was a war of aggression to REtake territory. Finland had been Russian. The Soviets wanted it back. They didn't get all of it back in the end but they still hang onto the stuff they "won". If they hadn't invaded Russia, chances are the Germans would have won in Russia as the winter war was followed by purges of incompetent officers who were there because of politics.

I think anyone who thinks the Soviet's were not as bad as the Germans during WW2 hasn't read enough history. As for saying the Germans started it - which bit? The Russians are just as guilty for the 1939 invasion of Poland as the Germans - look up the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Perhaps to some Germans think that the real crimes were only committed by hard core Nazi SS units like the Einstatzgruppen? That way they can distance the crimes as something that average Germans and German military units had no part in? I'm not sure what they teach in German schools but I could imagine some people wanting to not believe that their grandparents could have been a party to such evil.

It's been a while since I studied this period of history but for a good overview the old World at War series has a good episode on it.

Yes I got that, and treated as such, but it's exactly the sort of thing some serious anti-semites come out with! Rather a strange issue to have given the point I made, and even more so when you consider it was actually the Romans who crucified him (assuming you believe the sources )