Triptykon: 'Heavy Metal Is Much More Classful Than Pop Or Hip-Hop'

Irrespective of whether a group works on a musical level, that group also needs to work on a personal level. Should personalities clash, then more often or not tensions reach crescendo levels, resulting in an untimely split. This was the case for Celtic Frost during the noughties, whose sole full-length during that decade was 2006's "Monotheist". Sadly, this is their last for the foreseeable future. Time marches on though, and so mainman Tom G. Warrior formed a new group in Triptykon, a group which seems to work at a quicker pace than latter day Celtic Frost.
Courtesy of a licensing agreement with Century Media Records, Triptykon's debut full-length "Eparistera Daimones" was issued on March 22nd, 2010 through Prowling Death Records Ltd., its Japanese release arriving on April 21st through Victor Entertainment Japan. Produced by Triptykon mainman Thomas Gabriel "Warrior" Fischer and guitarist V. Santura, the album was recorded in V. Santura's own Woodshed Studio in southern Germany during the latter half of 2009. Mastering, meanwhile, was handled by Walter Schmid at Oakland Recording in Winterthur, Switzerland. H. R. Giger's "Vlad Tepes" is the record's cover illustration, with Vincent Castiglia providing group illustrations elsewhere.
Featuring three unreleased studio cuts from the album's sessions as well as two live tracks recorded during Triptykon's headline performance at the Roadburn Festival in Tilburg, The Netherlands on April 16th, the EP 'Shatter' saw the light of day on October 25th in Europe, and then a day later in North America. Directed and filmed by Philipp Hirsch of Film-M in Leipzig, Germany in late September, the music video for "Shatter" was based on a concept devised by Tom G. Warrior. Triptykon's current lineup consists of: Thomas Gabriel Fischer (vocals, guitars and programming), V. Santura (guitar and vocals), Norman Lonhard (drums and percussion), and Vanja Slajh (bass).
On November 19th at 20:00 GMT following line issues weeks earlier, Triptykon mainman Tom G. Warrior telephoned Hit The Lights' Robert Gray to discuss the group's career thus far.
UG: Hello?Tom G. Warrior: Hello - this is Tom.
How are you Tom?
Good evening Robert. Yes, I'm very good. How are you?
I'm doing well.
I hope we can finally conduct this interview.
(Laughs) Me too. The connection was really bad last time, wasn't it?
Yeah. It's been a very long time coming, and I'm very, very happy that we can finally talk. I hope this time it's gonna work out.
Me too - the connection seems better. Would it be alright if we began the interview?
Absolutely.
Could you talk me through how Triptykon originally came together, and how you approached assembling its lineup?
As you might know, Celtic Frost was much more than just a band to me; Celtic Frost was synonymous with my life, and my life was synonymous with Celtic Frost. I was the main songwriter for a quarter of a century in Celtic Frost, and the band was extremely important to me. Accordingly, it was extremely difficult to see the band being destroyed from inside. There were a lot of personal problems and a lot of ego problems within the band for the last two years of Celtic Frost's existence, and I tried whatever I could to solve these problems. There were numerous discussions and numerous meetings which unfortunately did not result in a band that was rejuvenated. We ended up talking in circles and the situation was never really resolved, so eventually, I got so frustrated because we spent all our energy on that instead of writing music like we should. I became so frustrated that the only solution I saw was to leave my own band and form a new one, and in doing so, hopefully avoid these problems. When I left Celtic Frost in April of 2008, I was of course extremely careful in assembling a new band. To me, the human level was much more important than anything else, than the technical proficiency of my new musicians or anything like that. I first and foremost wanted to make sure I was playing with friends and not with backstabbers and liars, so I did approach friends; I approached V. Santura, who had been the live guitarist and had become a close friend of mine during Celtic Frost's existence - I wanted him to be the lead guitarist. I approached Vanja Slajh, who's basically my best friend here in Zurich, Switzerland where I live, to be the bassist of Triptykon. Vanja and I wanted to play in a project together for quite a long time, and this was finally the opportunity. The only person who hadn't been a friend to begin with was Norman the drummer, who was a recommendation by my management. Of course my manager, she's known me for twenty-nine years or so and knew exactly what I was looking for - her suggestion was spot on. It turned out that Norman wasn't only a fantastic drummer, but also an extremely pleasant personality. In the meantime, during Triptykon's three years of existence almost, he has become a very close friend of mine as well.

"There were a lot of personal problems and a lot of ego problems within the band for the last two years of Celtic Frost's existence."

What were the problems within Celtic Frost? You mentioned "backstabbers and liars" as well as problems within, though why did you feel the need to leave Celtic Frost?
As I said earlier, I always looked at Celtic Frost as being far more than a band. There was an attempt to go towards artistic paths that had not been used by others; we always tried to do something really special, something different. Maybe we didn't always accomplish that, but we tried very hard to be original and to do something different, and not just repeat what has been done a million times before. When it came to the human side however, it was very sobering to discover that we were just as human as everybody else. All the idealism seemed to vanish when it came down to the human level, and as is often the case, the newest and most inexperienced member proved to be the most difficult member. When we had reformed Celtic Frost in the early noughties, we needed a new drummer, and we found a completely unknown drummer in Switzerland. He was a friend of Celtic Frost's bassist Martin Ain, and Martin lobbied very hard to have him in the band.
I had a very bad gut feeling right from the beginning because of some of the things that took place during the first few weeks of his membership in Celtic Frost, but Martin would not have any of that. Martin insisted that this guy would be our drummer, and as it turned out, he toured the world on the strength of my music and on the strength of twenty-five years worth of previous work with Celtic Frost, and yet he acted as if he was the reason why we could do this. He acted like he had created all of that, like he had done all of this work for the past quarter of a century. He was the newest and most inexperienced member, and yet he had the biggest ego trip of anybody in the band. Franco ran amok, and there's really no other way of describing it. It's very difficult to describe to begin with; I'm describing something here in a few sentences that took place over five and a half years, and that was a very complex mechanism. In short, his ego destroyed everything; it served to destroy the human relations in the band, it served to create intrigue, and it served to create lies. To me personally at least, that's not an environment in which I can be creative.
Is Triptykon's March 2010 full-length debut 'Eparistera Daimones' what the next Celtic Frost album would've sounded like if things hadn't come to an end?
Of course, Triptykon is its own band. It's not a dictatorship of mine, and I'm very keen to involve the other people because they're very talented and very unique people. I would like to combine their ideas with mine, which is one side of things. The other side is that I was the main songwriter for all of Celtic Frost's existence, and am now the main songwriter in Triptykon, so there are of course huge parallels - many parallels - between the bands as far as creativity and sound are concerned. The problems in Celtic Frost were not of a musical or creative nature, but were entirely of a human nature. I felt very happy musically and creatively in Celtic Frost, and so of course I want to continue this path in Triptykon. As I said in the beginning though, Triptykon isn't a band that only consists of me, and it isn't a dictatorship of mine. I'm extremely happy to have very competent musicians with me in Triptykon, so one could say it is probably a new project that is built very strongly on Celtic Frost's musical foundations.
Would you say that 'Eparistera Daimones' is "darker, heavier and more experimental" than 2006's 'Monotheist'?
The last Celtic Frost album was probably the heaviest and darkest Celtic Frost had ever done, but having said that, I do think we are even a notch darker and heavier in Triptykon and I actually like that very much. All of my life there've been periods where I've been looking for even heavier music. For example, when I formed Hellhammer - that was such a moment. Now I've formed Triptykon, and maybe that's because of what happened in Celtic Frost. I find myself drawn immensely towards even greater darkness than we created in Celtic Frost, and I feel very at home in that kind of music. I'm very happy that Triptykon is pursuing that path; it feels very natural, and doesn't feel contrived at all. It feels very much like me, and for the foreseeable future, I would very much like to explore that path further with Triptykon on our next few albums.
Is that "darker" path also reflected in Triptykon's lyrical content?
Very much so, of course. To me, the lyrics have always been a very personal issue. The lyrics are not contrived either, and I don't like to write abstract lyrics. I have lived a life; I'm forty-seven years old, so I no longer have to resort towards fantasy or things like that like I did when I was a teenager. I have now lived enough of a life to be able to draw on my personal experiences, the content of my own life. In writing my lyrics, there are plenty of radical emotions in my life which I can harvest because there is sometimes a lot of darkness or a lot of many radical events taking place. It is almost easy to write lyrics that fit this darkness, the music's darkness.
What are some of these "personal experiences" you lyrically speak about on 'Eparistera Daimones'?
There are a number of things that have haunted my life over the last few years. In a way, it's probably necessary to disclose those for people who are curious about why my music sounds the way it does and why the lyrics are the way they are. On the other hand though, I feel it's kind of inappropriate. I'm in the hard rock and heavy metal scene, but in the commercial scene, in the pop music scene, it is a daily occurrence that artists promote their albums with tabloid material. If you look at Lady Gaga or Britney Spears and all these people, that's the way they promote their albums. The more scandalous, the more personal and the more tabloid, the better the album is promoted. I'm hesitant to do this; I'm a heavy metal musician, and I do have my issues in my life and there's plenty of darkness in my life, and not invited. It just so happens though that there's a certain line I'd like to draw. I'm already very open in my books, and I don't think if you're in heavy metal it's appropriate to divulge everything. I regard heavy metal as much more classful music than pop music or hip-hop music. I'm very content to stay away from tabloid material, so let's leave it at that.

"It is almost easy to write lyrics that fit this darkness, the music's darkness."

You prefer your music to speak for itself?
The music is very open. It's perfectly legitimate to simply listen to Triptykon and headbang, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's a lot of moments in my life where I listen to music just to enjoy it, but if somebody's drawn to the deeper meaning or to the background then I think you will find plenty of pointers both in the music itself, and of course in the lyrics. If you're really interested, there's also the liner notes; every Triptykon release, the album and the EP, have very detailed liner notes about the songs which are not mandatory to read, but if you're interested in some of the background stories at least - at least hints of the background stories - you'll find them. It's basically up to each individual listener how they want to approach music, and what the music does for them. There's so many levels of how you can consume such music. I think they're all legitimate.
H. R. Giger handled the artwork design for 'Eparistera Daimones'. Why did you approach him almost twenty-five years after he handled the artwork design for Celtic Frost's second album 'To Mega Therion' (October 1985), and what was it like to work with him again?
To me, he's a genius. He's simply a genius, and it's as prophetic and simple as that. There's not much more to it. I've been deeply drawn to his work ever since I was a child in the late seventies, and my appreciation for his work has only grown in the past decades. I actually looked at his newest book that's gonna be published in December - I looked at the proof of print today at his house. I've seen his artwork a million times in my life, but every time I look at it like today, I find myself sitting there in awe like I'm looking at it for the first time. Every time I look at it, it is apparent to me that he really is a genius whereas I'm just a worker. I don't consider myself an artist; I simply work, but he is a true artist. He's a true genius, and how can you not be drawn to his work? Especially if you play dark music. I think his artwork and the music we play in the heavy metal scene are perfect matches.
How would you describe the H.R. Giger artwork 'Vlad Tepes', which features on the front cover of 'Eparistera Daimones'?
To me personally, the main hallmark of his artwork is that it's evil and dark and yet at the same time, it's always aesthetic and beautiful. In heavy metal, there are a million efforts to make evil and drastic album sleeves. Most of the time, they end up kind of ham-fisted, sometimes even embarrassing, because evil and shock effect has been done to death. Not everybody's talented in doing this, and some bands resort to just really cheap measures to achieve shock effect. You then have somebody like H.R. Giger who represents darkness and nightmarish visions as well with such beauty, with such aesthetics and with such an eye for art that it's astonishing. He's head and shoulders above everybody else, and that's what has fascinated me. That's also why I selected 'Vlad Tepes' to be the painting we used for this cover. Using the word "nightmare", Giger's paintings have all resulted from his nightmares. All his famous paintings are basically images that he has seen in dreams, and that to me makes them very authentic.
How would you compare the three studio tracks present on the 'Shatter' EP to the material on 'Eparistera Daimones'?
To me, they're one and the same. We recorded all of these tracks during the same sessions. It was extremely difficult to select what was gonna be on the album and what was gonna be on the EP because these tracks were all created for the same body of work for the same band during the same time period. To me, they're very organic amongst each other. We simply had to draw a line because the playing time of the album was already very long, and we couldn't go any further. We made the very difficult selection of what to put on 'Eparistera Daimones', and the record company also had some input in terms of what to put on the album. To me personally though, the EP and the album are very much products that go together. They're very much a part of one session, and all of these tracks represent Triptykon. If anything, they represent the complete picture of the band at this moment in time.
Would you say there are any differences between the version of "Crucifixus" which features on the 'Shatter' EP to the one which Triptykon uploaded online to MySpace in 2008?
The upload to MySpace, which was the first track to be heard of Triptykon's, was a demo. We took the track to the studio, and mixed it professionally. Since "Crucifixus" is an electronic track though, the differences are minimal. "Crucifixus"' album version is just done in a slightly better sound quality, and it was mastered on a very professional level by a Swiss mastering engineer named Walter Schmid, who had already worked with Celtic Frost in the past. By and large though, it's the same song in a way.
Triptykon filmed a music video for "Shatter", directed by Philipp Hirsch.
Yeah. We had been working for months on the ideas for the "Shatter" video, and it was a very drawn out process that drove me insane because I had a very particular vision. Again, I didn't want to follow paths that had been done already. I wanted to do a video that is slightly different, and didn't want to just have a video where we stand in an empty factory all headbanging like ninety-nine percent of all bands out there. I wanted to do something that has high visual impact which displays the band's heaviness and darkness, but in a different manner. Once we had the concept developed, it was very difficult to find a director who shared that vision who didn't just want to go for the cliches. Some of the proposals I received from directors when I sent them my script proposals were just ludicrous. It was difficult to find somebody with an open mind, but we were extremely fortunate to get in contact with Philipp Hirsch who resides in Leipzig, Germany. He is a person with great talent and with an amazing vision, and I'm extremely happy with the result. The video was supposed to emulate the expressionism of 1920s Germany, the Germany right after the First World War when the artistic scene was blossoming in Berlin for example, and all kinds of artistic works were created. I've been deeply drawn to that period of history and I wanted to touch upon that with the video, and Phillip did the perfect job in making this a reality.
Is the visual element a very important part of your work?
It's an extremely important part. One of the reasons why I've always been drawn to rock music was because it supplies you with this additional platform to express yourself. On the one hand, you have the music which is an amazing tool to express your feelings and emotions with. In rock music, you're given the visual side which is also limitless if you actually choose to embrace it. I know it's not important to many bands, but to me it's extremely important. To me, the music and the visual side compliment each other and without one of these two elements, Triptykon would not be complete. I think it's extremely important.
Were there any specific aspects of 1920s Germany which influenced Triptykon?
My interest in that period of time has been prevalent for many, many years, so I didn't focus on any one aspect in particular. I think it's an extremely fascinating time period as whole, and I didn't try to emulate one particular person. For example, I'm deeply drawn towards the graphic design created during the 1920s in Germany. I'm drawn towards the way they applied light and shadow in the silent movies of that time, and I'm drawn to the expressionist painting that was done in that scene. There's so many levels to that, and my interest has been drawn to that for so many years that it's difficult to pinpoint any individual influence. It's simply a time period that unfortunately got lost when a few years later the National Socialists came into power, and then that's when the entire attention of the world focused on Germany. During the years before that, when Germany tried to find democracy after the terrible First World War and when all the doors were opened for the artists, to me that's even a far more interesting period of time.
Are there plans in the works for a second Triptykon full-length?
I've been working on the second album for months now. I basically started working on it once we left the studio after our debut album. I'm inundated with ideas; I have a million ideas, and I'm working on quite a number of lyrics and musical pieces. I have no idea what's gonna end up on the album. As I see it right now, the album's gonna be following mainly two avenues; one of them is a very epic kind of music, a very atmospheric, epic kind of direction, and the other avenue is very primitive, very heavy, almost Hellhammer-like short and primitive songs. It remains to be seen how well these two avenues will mix, and what kind of balance will be on the album.
At what stage of development is Triptykon's second album?
It's at a stage where everybody writes music at their individual homes. We have not practised new songs as a band yet, but I'm actually quite far in determining the concepts and my contributions to the album. I have a very, very clear picture of what the album will sound like, and I have a very clear picture of my contributions to it. We know where we're gonna record it, and we know how we're gonna produce it and so on. We have not taken the songs to the rehearsal room though. I think that'll still take a few months. I'd like to have enough material to start rehearsals in earnest, so that will still probably take until next year.

"Triptykon is not a dictatorship of mine, and I'm very keen to involve the other people because they're very talented and very unique people."

Can we expect a new Triptykon album to be released in late 2011?
I would like that, but realistically, we're probably gonna talk about releasing the album in early 2012 exactly two years after our debut album. We're gonna play a lot of concerts in 2011 and we are planning to go into the studio in the summer or the fall, so I don't think the album will be released before the end of 2011 unfortunately, even though that's basically what I would like. I don't want to spend endless time in the studio; I would like to work very quickly and have another album out very soon, but it's probably simply not gonna be possible. We're trying to play as many concerts as possible in 2011 as well.
What was the experience of writing 'Only Death Is Real' like?
It was a very personal experience, a very important experience. It was an experience that was overdue in my life, to come to terms with certain parts of my youth, mostly the personal aspects of Hellhammer. Not the musical aspects, but mostly the personal aspects, and things that the fans were able to look at in a much more neutral manner but to me were very personal. It was high time that I addressed these issues for myself. The book process was a very personal, very philosophical affair for me. I'm very happy I created this book. Everybody actually who was in Hellhammer felt pretty much the same way for their own individual reasons; we all had our own issues with Hellhammer on one level or another, and the booked helped us all to re-evaluate and come to terms with our past. We took the book very seriously. I worked on the book for five years - I didn't want it to just be a thrown-together project for money. The book was much more personal to me, and that's why I worked on it for such a long time. I wanted it to be just right, and I'm very happy with the result. I'm very proud of it.
Looking back, what are your thoughts on Hellhammer?
At this point in my life, I can say I'm very happy I was a part of Hellhammer. I'm very proud. I'm able to separate the circumstances of my childhood and my youth; of course I'm closely connected to the existence of Hellhammer, but I'm able now to separate that and look at the music and the accomplishments of Hellhammer, and feel very proud of them. I know that certain parts of my youth are still very difficult for me to address, but I know that abstractly the music of Hellhammer is one thing and my personal life is another. I can look at Hellhammer in a much more relaxed manner now, and actually enjoy the music we created. As primitive as the music was and as limited as it was, it expresses a certain heaviness and darkness that actually existed in our lives. I'm very happy that we found each other at the time, and we created that music. It was, after all, a very special time, and I would have never gone the path in my life that I did without Hellhammer. Everything I did later in Celtic Frost and now in Triptykon is of course based on Hellhammer, and it's very good to have come to terms with all of that.
Finally, what do you feel the future will hold for Triptykon?
Triptykon to me is basically almost like a bonus track. I've been blessed with a lot of quite amazing occurrences in my life, having been a part of Hellhammer and having been a part of Celtic Frost. I did not think that I would ever have the chance to be in yet another tremendous band, and yet that is exactly what has happened. I'm just humbled and I'm very grateful. I'm not a greedy person; I am very modest, so I'm looking forward to the future with modesty. I'm gonna try to record more albums. I'm gonna do my very best to make very high quality albums, but my expectations? I don't have expectations, and I don't have any ambitions. I've done so much in my life already that has made me very happy, and has gone much further than anything I would have ever expected that it would be preposterous to have expectations now. Triptykon should simply exist to create good music for as long as we all are alive, and that's basically what we're doing.
Do you have a message for the fans of your work?
Based on what I just said, yes, I would like to thank them very, very much for making this path possible. As I've said many times before, I'm very aware of who has made this possible. I'm very aware of why I'm here, and that's because fans have given me a chance. My fans have been loyal and have travelled this path with me, and they have listened to my music and come to my concerts. I don't take this for granted at all, so if I have any last words then it's simply thank you to the people who have followed me.
Thanks for the interview Tom.
Thank you very much Robert, and thank you for your patience. I'm very glad that we finally got to talk properly.
And me as well. Hopefully we can talk again when Triptykon has its second album released.
Very much so. I very much hope we'll see Triptykon in the United Kingdom in 2011 more than once, and it would be an honour to meet you in person. We've been there many times with Celtic Frost, and I'd very much like to come back there.
Have a good evening anyway Tom.
Alright. Thanks a lot.
Bye.
Bye Robert.
Interview by Robert GrayUltimate-Guitar.Com 2011

It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.

This is why heavy metal and rock n roll for that matter will never be on the top of the charts again. Everyone has this attitude where they feel they're owed something or they're more "classful" than other types of music. Why don't you stop jacking off in the mirror and try to make something relevant to what is actually happening in the world of popular music instead of whining about Lady Gaga. Not until Rock n' Roll came around do people think that popular = bad.
But hey, congrats on being more "classful." Whatever you need to put yourself to sleep at night...

MoFly has somewhat of point. He didn't have to be so elitist about it but still. Hip-Hop and Pop are good in their own way and like any other genre, it has it's greats and it's laughing stocks.
Overall though, I give way more credit to full bands than I do to single stage performers. I feel like it takes way more "magic" to have an amazing 4 piece band than it does for one person to sit there with a synth keyboard and write everything straight to Pro-Tools and then layer their vocals, or someone elses.
Music is meant to be "organic" like bands are, not "mechanical" like Pop and Hip-Hop are today.

Taken out of context or not, that headline is what got me to read the article in the first place. Way better than "Some guy who's been in the metal scene for decades claims metal isn't dead" or some dumb headline like that

this was a really disrespectful comment from his side, disregarding thousands of great music. Also, on a more personal note, I dont believe that this makeup this artist wears is what my common sense would class as "classful".

Sanarius73 wrote:
It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.

Ahahaha. Metalheads must get a kick out of being elitist. Personally, I see Beethoven being a freelance rap producer and Mozart exploring avant-garde body percussion.

Sanarius73 wrote:
It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.

arrell wrote:
Sanarius73 wrote:
It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.
Ahahaha. Metalheads must get a kick out of being elitist. Personally, I see Beethoven being a freelance rap producer and Mozart exploring avant-garde body percussion.

It doesn't seem like he was being an elitist ***** with that comment or trying to bash pop or anything, he was just saying that's how it is... people love controversy.. why do you think Alice Cooper was big back in the day. but pop artists have their personal shit all over the tabloids and therefore sell records.

Ahahaha. Metalheads must get a kick out of being elitist. Personally, I see Beethoven being a freelance rap producer and Mozart exploring avant-garde body percussion.

dude if you listen to alot of metal bands you'll hear alot classical and even renaissance influence.. i can honestly see vivaldi in a metal band.. listen to Summer i can honestly hear it with distorted guitars and basses.. wagner with his heavy bass could honestly run with korn or slipknot.. bach could honestly be compaired to eddie van halen and yngwie malmsteen... it's not just elitist man... alot of metalheads (myself included) i know learn and listen to classical for inspiration

Kear Bear wrote:
dude if you listen to alot of metal bands you'll hear alot classical and even renaissance influence.. i can honestly see vivaldi in a metal band.. listen to Summer i can honestly hear it with distorted guitars and basses.. wagner with his heavy bass could honestly run with korn or slipknot.. bach could honestly be compaired to eddie van halen and yngwie malmsteen... it's not just elitist man... alot of metalheads (myself included) i know learn and listen to classical for inspiration

The Renaissance? What metal bands are influence from the Renaissance? I'm sure they are few and far between.
Some metal does have an overt classical influence, but metal as a genre has it's roots in rock, rock n roll and the blues.

Kear Bear wrote:
dude if you listen to alot of metal bands you'll hear alot classical and even renaissance influence.. i can honestly see vivaldi in a metal band.. listen to Summer i can honestly hear it with distorted guitars and basses.. wagner with his heavy bass could honestly run with korn or slipknot.. bach could honestly be compaired to eddie van halen and yngwie malmsteen... it's not just elitist man... alot of metalheads (myself included) i know learn and listen to classical for inspiration

I personally can't agree with the comments regarding heavy metal as having close ties with classical music. How much metal uses classical conventions of orchestration, arrangement and roles of instrumentation?
How much metal breaks from triadic structure, and uses secundal, quartal or quintal harmony? How much uses counterpoint or contrapunctual arrangement? How much uses a wide array of dynamic structures and orchestration? How much modulates effectively between keys, without just shifting up or down a tone or chromatically? Those are some common factors of classical-era music that aren't really featured at all in contemporary metal, bar a few bands who have members with authentic classical training or studies under their belts.
Call me an elitist for saying that, but like a few other posters have said, playing harmonic minor does not instantly make a piece of music classically influenced, nor does it have any direct or instant correlation to music of those periods.
Classical or orchestral music is largely based on a set of very strict rules of composition, and is relatively independent in that regard. If any form of contemporary music has a similarity to classical music of the era, it's contemporary classical, fairly enough. Behind that, theater music is probably the most notable runner for using so many of those set conventions and ideals of composition (albeit, in a different context).
I'm sure this rant is going to receive a lot of back-lashing, but I suppose that's my own fault for being somewhat aggressive with the tone of my response, which I'll take full responsibility for =P

arrell wrote:
Sanarius73 wrote:
It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.
Ahahaha. Metalheads must get a kick out of being elitist. Personally, I see Beethoven being a freelance rap producer and Mozart exploring avant-garde body percussion.

This comment made my day.
And I have to agree, horrible quote to pull out from the interview. Tom deserves a much better quote than that.

Sanarius73 wrote:
It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.

all western music uses the same scales. if classical composers were alive today they might be playing metal, but they might also be playing hip-hop, pop, or not even playing music at all. it's completely irrelevant

Vacuity wrote:
Sanarius73 wrote:
It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.
all western music uses the same scales. if classical composers were alive today they might be playing metal, but they might also be playing hip-hop, pop, or not even playing music at all. it's completely irrelevant

I totally agree with Vacuity. It is completely irrelevant. Something I think we forget is that classical composers were also very interested in making money and being popular. They werent these hermits who made music purely for the sake of the mental journey without regard to actual life. They were confident musicians who looked at what was in the past and what was currently popular and were motivated to make the most impact on peoples lives while making themselves famous. So from that stance (which isn't gospel of course) they might actually be making pop and hip-hop.

juckfush wrote:
I personally can't agree with the comments regarding heavy metal as having close ties with classical music. How much metal uses classical conventions of orchestration, arrangement and roles of instrumentation?
How much metal breaks from triadic structure, and uses secundal, quartal or quintal harmony? How much uses counterpoint or contrapunctual arrangement? How much uses a wide array of dynamic structures and orchestration? How much modulates effectively between keys, without just shifting up or down a tone or chromatically? Those are some common factors of classical-era music that aren't really featured at all in contemporary metal, bar a few bands who have members with authentic classical training or studies under their belts.
Call me an elitist for saying that, but like a few other posters have said, playing harmonic minor does not instantly make a piece of music classically influenced, nor does it have any direct or instant correlation to music of those periods.
Classical or orchestral music is largely based on a set of very strict rules of composition, and is relatively independent in that regard. If any form of contemporary music has a similarity to classical music of the era, it's contemporary classical, fairly enough. Behind that, theater music is probably the most notable runner for using so many of those set conventions and ideals of composition (albeit, in a different context).
I'm sure this rant is going to receive a lot of back-lashing, but I suppose that's my own fault for being somewhat aggressive with the tone of my response, which I'll take full responsibility for =P

The Renaissance? What metal bands are influence from the Renaissance? I'm sure they are few and far between.

i get a bit of my influence from vivaldi... my friend and i wanna do a cover of Summer =D and children of bodom has a cover of Summer on youtube.

I personally can't agree with the comments regarding heavy metal as having close ties with classical music. How much metal uses classical conventions of orchestration, arrangement and roles of instrumentation?

I never said the relationship was close, i mean that alot of them get their influence from classical music.. i agree a 5 peace band is way different than a huge orchestra... but if you take a les paul (detuned) and a cranked marshall fullstack that's about equal to lets say a 3 cellos or maybe an organ (in volume of course, the organ has a killer tonal range)... wagner loved to arrange with alot of tubas and basses... much like alot of metal bands love to load with alot of bass... but i wouldn't group metal with classical or classical with metal... i'm just saying a lot of metal likes to take influence from classical.. much like you hear a song that's a lil "twangy" but it ain't quite a country song or a song that's "bluesy" but aint a blues song

Kear Bear wrote:
sorry for the double post but on another note metal also loves that wall-o-sound that classical music perfected...

Replying to both of your posts here.
Sorry for probably coming off as condescending in my reply to the topic, but from a compositional standpoint, it's hard to see any real correlation between approaches of classical music and contemporary metal.
Given, the wall-of-sound is hugely popular! I can absolutely agree with you there, since a lot of composers of the era vouched for those ideas. A large part of it was for sonic effect, but more-so that individual instrumental parts could be distinguished; a tuba right at the back of an ensemble would be difficult to interpret without support from other brass instruments doubling it (especially considering their register and how frequencies of different ranges affect one-another), which is why marching bands and the like also use this approach. Again, I'm probably coming off as a bit of a pretentious idiot at the moment, but I do agree that the wall-of-sound approach is well-regarded in orchestras, and in contemporary music it's a very popular recording approach to say the least.
I think in senses like that, all contemporary (at least Western) music draws from old conventions of rhose production sort of purposes. But as for compositional techniques, like modulations, counterpoint and harmonic interplay, there's not much that really resembles the classical compositions of the era, today, bar pieces specifically composed to have that quality.
Again, apologies for being somewhat cynical, and I meant no direct attack to anybody - more just stating my view of the argument.
It happens to me all too often though that a metal-head will declare that metal is classical music's offspring, and use that as validation that their preferred style of music is the best. =P Of course, it's all preference, but those comments do get a little grating when no real evidence is given. If anything, thank you for having a good response and an understanding of the topic; I really do appreciate and respect that!

Sanarius73 wrote:
MoFly has somewhat of point. He didn't have to be so elitist about it but still. Hip-Hop and Pop are good in their own way and like any other genre, it has it's greats and it's laughing stocks.
Overall though, I give way more credit to full bands than I do to single stage performers. I feel like it takes way more "magic" to have an amazing 4 piece band than it does for one person to sit there with a synth keyboard and write everything straight to Pro-Tools and then layer their vocals, or someone elses.
Music is meant to be "organic" like bands are, not "mechanical" like Pop and Hip-Hop are today.

What was elitist about what he said? Honestly, you people throw around that word too much.

It's strange that I was thinking the same thing about "popular" music earlier tonight, and then I saw the headline to this article...
For those throwing around the big E-word; Metal does seem to have more class than pop and rap in several ways. Scales, music theory, and care for the fans rather than money (for most) are three big examples that most pop/rap "musicians" seem to have. At least the lyrical content has a little more imagination than talking about how much money or ass you get or how awesome you are in da club! At least metal musicians know their instruments, compose/write their own songs, and perform them with more passion than I've seen from most of your Kanyes, Gagas and Biebers.
And I have not completely cornered myself into the metal genre, I love Vivaldi, Koh Otani, Clint Marsell, etc.

Let me get something straight with everyone here: all these "rappers" that you see on MTV and hear on the radio are NOT real rappers.
today's rappers are all posers, motivated by their greed to make money and become famous. back in the 90s, rap wasn't like this..... it used to be real art, real music made by real rappers.
if you have the time, please try listening to some immortal technique, nas(older material), or 2pac songs and tell me whether you think they are shit or not

juckfush wrote:
I personally can't agree with the comments regarding heavy metal as having close ties with classical music. How much metal uses classical conventions of orchestration, arrangement and roles of instrumentation?
How much metal breaks from triadic structure, and uses secundal, quartal or quintal harmony? How much uses counterpoint or contrapunctual arrangement? How much uses a wide array of dynamic structures and orchestration? How much modulates effectively between keys, without just shifting up or down a tone or chromatically? Those are some common factors of classical-era music that aren't really featured at all in contemporary metal, bar a few bands who have members with authentic classical training or studies under their belts.
Call me an elitist for saying that, but like a few other posters have said, playing harmonic minor does not instantly make a piece of music classically influenced, nor does it have any direct or instant correlation to music of those periods.
Classical or orchestral music is largely based on a set of very strict rules of composition, and is relatively independent in that regard. If any form of contemporary music has a similarity to classical music of the era, it's contemporary classical, fairly enough. Behind that, theater music is probably the most notable runner for using so many of those set conventions and ideals of composition (albeit, in a different context).
I'm sure this rant is going to receive a lot of back-lashing, but I suppose that's my own fault for being somewhat aggressive with the tone of my response, which I'll take full responsibility for =P

this is stupid, i'm too lazy to write down why, but if you want to know why this is stupid, the internet is great source of information...ok maybe a i'll explain a little, quartal and quintal harmonies are used mostly in Romantic and Impressioninst music, not Classical

and playing in harmonic minor scale doesn't make it classically influenced I will agree with that, I think the style most shred guitarists is more reminiscient of Baroque music anyway, it seems to have similar vibe to the harpsichord, which pretty much defined the Baroque period

juckfush wrote:
I personally can't agree with the comments regarding heavy metal as having close ties with classical music. How much metal uses classical conventions of orchestration, arrangement and roles of instrumentation?
How much metal breaks from triadic structure, and uses secundal, quartal or quintal harmony? How much uses counterpoint or contrapunctual arrangement? How much uses a wide array of dynamic structures and orchestration? How much modulates effectively between keys, without just shifting up or down a tone or chromatically? Those are some common factors of classical-era music that aren't really featured at all in contemporary metal, bar a few bands who have members with authentic classical training or studies under their belts.
Call me an elitist for saying that, but like a few other posters have said, playing harmonic minor does not instantly make a piece of music classically influenced, nor does it have any direct or instant correlation to music of those periods.
Classical or orchestral music is largely based on a set of very strict rules of composition, and is relatively independent in that regard. If any form of contemporary music has a similarity to classical music of the era, it's contemporary classical, fairly enough. Behind that, theater music is probably the most notable runner for using so many of those set conventions and ideals of composition (albeit, in a different context).
I'm sure this rant is going to receive a lot of back-lashing, but I suppose that's my own fault for being somewhat aggressive with the tone of my response, which I'll take full responsibility for =P

Metal can use all of the harmonies you mentioned, but its just not as common mainly due to the number of instruments. If there 16 guitars in a song then you would have to use harmonic exploration constantly, but due to there being around 2 or 3, harmonies are generally confined to consonant intervals such as thirds and sixths.
Counterpoint I concede is a rare occurrence, but it is out there - All That Remains "Not Alone" -
I will agree with you on the points of modulation and dynamics. Unless, as Rob mentioned, you listen to a symphonic metal band, you won't find a very strong dynamic focus, and if it is there it doesn't change and flow as much as a classical piece. And it won't generally help a song build up to a climax like a good classical piece will.

mtllica wrote:
It's strange that I was thinking the same thing about "popular" music earlier tonight, and then I saw the headline to this article...
For those throwing around the big E-word; Metal does seem to have more class than pop and rap in several ways. Scales, music theory, and care for the fans rather than money (for most) are three big examples that most pop/rap "musicians" seem to have. At least the lyrical content has a little more imagination than talking about how much money or ass you get or how awesome you are in da club! At least metal musicians know their instruments, compose/write their own songs, and perform them with more passion than I've seen from most of your Kanyes, Gagas and Biebers.
And I have not completely cornered myself into the metal genre, I love Vivaldi, Koh Otani, Clint Marsell, etc.

wtf? people like Kanye are to rap what the Jonas Brothers are to rock.
Lady Gaga probably has more of a classical influence than most metal bands.
oh and btw, rap isnt about "talking about how much money or ass you get or how awesome you are in da club!"
If you actually knew what you were talking about you would know that most rappers are more about politics than bitchez.

umm you sound ignorant, like the high school kids that say rap sucks lol
music fans for the most part are so ignorant, and at the top of the genres are metal fans, from creating sub categories to hating everything else, its really hard to take you seriously, all music serves purpose, i dont wanna go to a night club in LA, miami, or ny and listen to metal, put on some rap and techno! passion is subjective as well. what makes metal musicians passionate? is it the small clubs? van instead of tourbus? head banging? lyrical content that all though creative is silly in alot of instances.
you seem rather uneducated, this is why i never say i like metal cause i dont wanna be seen are a retard

Alarm flawed logic:
Metal is not music.
Yes, but seriously metal is most classful music. If you ask the entire world out of five songs and you put even the best generic heavy metal song in there I think about 95% of the entire world population would say it sounds like complete sh** and noize. Liberty to all but saying heavy metal is most classy when it contains just as much posers as hip hop only wearing everything in black, long hair and makeup does not make you classy. The only real elitist, classy music is imo jazz. And please bach and mozart would be playing metal, no way, as someone said they wanted to make popular music, not music they use as an alternative to waterboarding.
Let the flamy gates of this overbiased website please be opened.

why does everybody think metal/classical and instantly go on about scales? yes there is bands out there that play classically inspired stuff, but the influence is not in the scales, its its the song structuring.
most popular music has a set formula for its songs, pop/rock/hip-hop even early metal bands had a intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/solo/chorus/outro, but you listen to say for example beneath the remains era sepultura (maybe not the best example but it'll do) and the songs are complex arrangements which is a ode to classical music, even through the songs sound far from it. find me a classical piece thats got a simple structure like what i mentioned and i'll eat my words
great interview btw !!

Classical music was never about how many different scales you can fit into a song.
And lord_abyssium: I'd like to find any classical piece that has a verse/chorus etc in the modern sense. Oh, and simple structures? You ever heard of Binary Form? Rondo Form?

juckfush wrote:
I personally can't agree with the comments regarding heavy metal as having close ties with classical music. How much metal uses classical conventions of orchestration, arrangement and roles of instrumentation?
How much metal breaks from triadic structure, and uses secundal, quartal or quintal harmony? How much uses counterpoint or contrapunctual arrangement? How much uses a wide array of dynamic structures and orchestration? How much modulates effectively between keys, without just shifting up or down a tone or chromatically? Those are some common factors of classical-era music that aren't really featured at all in contemporary metal, bar a few bands who have members with authentic classical training or studies under their belts.
Call me an elitist for saying that, but like a few other posters have said, playing harmonic minor does not instantly make a piece of music classically influenced, nor does it have any direct or instant correlation to music of those periods.
Classical or orchestral music is largely based on a set of very strict rules of composition, and is relatively independent in that regard. If any form of contemporary music has a similarity to classical music of the era, it's contemporary classical, fairly enough. Behind that, theater music is probably the most notable runner for using so many of those set conventions and ideals of composition (albeit, in a different context).
I'm sure this rant is going to receive a lot of back-lashing, but I suppose that's my own fault for being somewhat aggressive with the tone of my response, which I'll take full responsibility for =P

Honestly, metal uses a lot more of this than pop or hip hop, which use next to none. But a lot of known metal doesn't use half of the stuff you listed, but some of it does. I believe classical is the most classful and overall best music ever in terms of both emotion and techicality. (is that a word?)
But I like your comment, it was very smart =P

rob904 - Thanks for clarifying the quartal and quintal part of what I wrote; to be absolutely honest, I've only studied application recently, so it probably wasn't he wisest decision on my part to include it in an argument =P Honestly though, thanks for catching that out and passing on the right information, because I do appreciate it. I'll get back to studying!
DJ2109 - Any genre of music can use any set of harmonic rules or sequences, and considering what some notable metal players know about harmony nowadays (Kiko Loureiro, Oli Herbert, Ron Jarzombek and Per Nilsson come to mind), I absolutely acknowledge that there are examples of counterpoint and non linear harmonies out there in metal music.
It would be interesting though to see more non-linear approaches in metal harmony, rather than strict thirds or fifths. I'll be sure to check out the All That Remains song though - cheers!
As for dynamics and the tension and release aspect, I really do think that was a large part of music of those eras; glad you agree there!
thePOTD - I can agree with that, but then regions come into play, which makes things a little more perplexing. A fair bit of non-Western pop artists do use some clever ideas in their writing. Unfortunately, only Nehl Aelin and particulars of Andre Popp's catalogue come to mind, and if I'm prepared to be flamed, Pomplamoose tends to borrow traits of bitonality in their harmonies (more in some songs than others, of course).
Cheers for the compliment, but there were a lot of things wrong in my post, which has already been noted!
Again, pardon for coming off as brash and condescending in my original post, because I know for sure that I did (and if I have in this reply, I'm very sorry for that, too). It's been great to receive some mature and insightful replies though, which will help next time I attempt to argue online =P (But really, I know what I have to revise and read up on - thanks for the replies!)
Cheers.

by will alone :
lol im pretty sure less than 5% of the people arguing about metal here have actually listened to anything like triptykon or celtic frost

Well I just did honestly, the first title that popped up was: A Dying God Coming Into Human Flesh. First thing that popped into my mind was, how clichd can you heavy metal fans be. How can you stand seeing a title like that. It's the same in your face stuff as calling a song hit me baby one more time.
The next thing I saw was the comment in the song and that guy said. And I quote:

i am putting my daughter to﻿ sleep to this tonight

I mean honestly, on the level of weirdo and sick, most metal fans manage to win the gold medal with platinum chips in it with a landslide.
After the obligatory quiet ending (whoo the shocking suspense is building just like bach lol) all hell breaks loose, they start screaming etc etc noise is building. Sounds like someone threw a plugged in amp in a bathtub with someone in it.
Oh and they wore masks and makeup.
Metal more classfull, only if a hemroid is too.

lord_abyssium wrote:
why does everybody think metal/classical and instantly go on about scales? yes there is bands out there that play classically inspired stuff, but the influence is not in the scales, its its the song structuring.
most popular music has a set formula for its songs, pop/rock/hip-hop even early metal bands had a intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/solo/chorus/outro, but you listen to say for example beneath the remains era sepultura (maybe not the best example but it'll do) and the songs are complex arrangements which is a ode to classical music, even through the songs sound far from it. find me a classical piece thats got a simple structure like what i mentioned and i'll eat my words
great interview btw !!

If you listen to many classical compositions from the different periods, many of them will generally revert back to a general theme, while it may change in terms of modulation or dynamics, there is always that same theme, this could be thought of as a chorus in a modern sense. The "verses" and "bridge" may not be as obvious as modern music. As cam said, a common form was rondo form, which was divided into the sections ABACA, or, as interpreted in a modern sense - Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Chorus

juckfus h wrote:
DJ2109 - Any genre of music can use any set of harmonic rules or sequences, and considering what some notable metal players know about harmony nowadays (Kiko Loureiro, Oli Herbert, Ron Jarzombek and Per Nilsson come to mind), I absolutely acknowledge that there are examples of counterpoint and non linear harmonies out there in metal music.
It would be interesting though to see more non-linear approaches in metal harmony, rather than strict thirds or fifths. I'll be sure to check out the All That Remains song though - cheers!
As for dynamics and the tension and release aspect, I really do think that was a large part of music of those eras; glad you agree there!

Yeah I always use the intro to that song as a good example of a contrapuntal melody.
The main reason why people only stay around thirds and fifths for harmonies I believe is because it is quite hard to work a dissonant harmony into a song and still make it aurally pleasing, which is what 99 percent of musicians aim for.
Its a real shame most modern metal musicians don't utilize dynamics to the extent that they used to in the classical period. It really does take a lot out of the expression of a piece if there aren't strong dynamics to back it up

DJ2109 wrote:
Yeah I always use the intro to that song as a good example of a contrapuntal melody.
The main reason why people only stay around thirds and fifths for harmonies I believe is because it is quite hard to work a dissonant harmony into a song and still make it aurally pleasing, which is what 99 percent of musicians aim for.
Its a real shame most modern metal musicians don't utilize dynamics to the extent that they used to in the classical period. It really does take a lot out of the expression of a piece if there aren't strong dynamics to back it up

Thanks again for the reply.
It's absolutely difficult to use harmonies other than thirds and fifths, particularly in Western music. I personally think the use of more complex (even just other than thirds and fifths) voicings though comes from getting an ear for how to use them through listening, exploration and experimentation - it's absolutely feasible, but difficult. I mean, If somebody played me a minor chord with a major seventh even a year back, I'd have dismissed it as garbage and non-musical in every way! But now I have a bit of an ear for how to use them in even my poppiest sounding progressions - the more you listen to and the more you're aware of, the more ideas you can get. I absolutely understand that a lot of metal musicians cite classical music as an influence, but it's so difficult to find one who really uses classical ideas effectively in their own music, which is what my original argument was about.
I'm not advocating that everybody should use big chords or inversions or alternate voicings, because then all music would sound too similar. But it could be cool to hear an artist or two who do use those sorts of techniques in their own genre. =]
As for dynamics in music, it's something I've only recently really begun to notice, and that's largely through listening to musicals, or studying soundtracks to Tom and Jerry or Pixar films. It started when I had exams in high school, because a large factor of the marking criteria was dynamic contrast, which is something I never considered.
I listened to Johann Strauss II just the other day, after finding his work through Tom and Jerry, and the dynamics and contrasts were amazing, but there was this perfect unity. Easily one of the more expressive pieces I've heard, and something I'd love to be able to imitate.
Anyway, that's the end of this ranting from me =P

Kear Bear wrote:
dude if you listen to alot of metal bands you'll hear alot classical and even renaissance influence.. i can honestly see vivaldi in a metal band.. listen to Summer i can honestly hear it with distorted guitars and basses.. wagner with his heavy bass could honestly run with korn or slipknot.. bach could honestly be compaired to eddie van halen and yngwie malmsteen... it's not just elitist man... alot of metalheads (myself included) i know learn and listen to classical for inspiration

eSdaze wrote:
by will alone :
lol im pretty sure less than 5% of the people arguing about metal here have actually listened to anything like triptykon or celtic frost
Well I just did honestly, the first title that popped up was: A Dying God Coming Into Human Flesh. First thing that popped into my mind was, how clichd can you heavy metal fans be. How can you stand seeing a title like that. It's the same in your face stuff as calling a song hit me baby one more time.
The next thing I saw was the comment in the song and that guy said. And I quote:i am putting my daughter to﻿ sleep to this tonight
I mean honestly, on the level of weirdo and sick, most metal fans manage to win the gold medal with platinum chips in it with a landslide.
After the obligatory quiet ending (whoo the shocking suspense is building just like bach lol) all hell breaks loose, they start screaming etc etc noise is building. Sounds like someone threw a plugged in amp in a bathtub with someone in it.
Oh and they wore masks and makeup.
Metal more classfull, only if a hemroid is too.

If you hate metal so much, then why are you reading an interview with a metal musician? Or did you not even read the rest of the interview and comment on the one sentence? Also, listening with closed ears doesn't really count, seeing as you clearly only heard what you expected to hear, which was "screaming etc etc." You can choose to miss out on an extremely diverse interesting genre if you want, but what's really the purpose of coming on here and commenting against it? Just makes you look ignorant.

Why does UG always insist on picking the most embarrassingly ignorant parts of interviews to use as the headline, when the person being interviewed always has a lot more interesting things to say? It's sort of insulting to the artist to pick the most inane thing to come out of their mouth over the course of the interview to draw attention.

And besides, there's not even a comparison there. If you thrust the average metal band into the spotlight the way a huge pop star is thrust into the spotlight, they'd probably spend a lot of time embarrassing themselves, too. The difference is, the average yahoo doesn't listen to metal. That doesn't make pop music or hip-hop bad, or anything. It just means the people who make that kind of music are judged by the standards of the average dipshit on the street, whereas metal bands are judged by the standards of metalheads. There's a pretty big difference there.

thrashmonkey wrote:
eSdaze wrote:
by will alone :
lol im pretty sure less than 5% of the people arguing about metal here have actually listened to anything like triptykon or celtic frost
Well I just did honestly, the first title that popped up was: A Dying God Coming Into Human Flesh. First thing that popped into my mind was, how clichd can you heavy metal fans be. How can you stand seeing a title like that. It's the same in your face stuff as calling a song hit me baby one more time.
The next thing I saw was the comment in the song and that guy said. And I quote:i am putting my daughter to﻿ sleep to this tonight
I mean honestly, on the level of weirdo and sick, most metal fans manage to win the gold medal with platinum chips in it with a landslide.
After the obligatory quiet ending (whoo the shocking suspense is building just like bach lol) all hell breaks loose, they start screaming etc etc noise is building. Sounds like someone threw a plugged in amp in a bathtub with someone in it.
Oh and they wore masks and makeup.
Metal more classfull, only if a hemroid is too.
If you hate metal so much, then why are you reading an interview with a metal musician? Or did you not even read the rest of the interview and comment on the one sentence? Also, listening with closed ears doesn't really count, seeing as you clearly only heard what you expected to hear, which was "screaming etc etc." You can choose to miss out on an extremely diverse interesting genre if you want, but what's really the purpose of coming on here and commenting against it? Just makes you look ignorant.

It's not a matter of hating metal, it's a matter of metal as a music genre is a joke. I read it because a headline claimed it was more classful then x and y. And I did read the entire interview, although looking back on it there was not really a point in doing so. Also fyi, you can't close your ears. Unless maybe you listen to metal, like you. Because that would be a prerequisite to enjoy the music being played. And I'm not ignorant, I can actually enjoy Iron Maiden, it's listenable and you can understand the lyrics as they are not singing/speaking/barfing like they got a guestrole in The Exorcist 2. Also their amps do not sound like they got a pedalboard that exists of 15 distortion pedals. Also you do not need to have listened to every existing metal song to have an opinion about it, nor do you need to have dated every women in the world to have an opinion about them. I have an extremely wide and broad taste but it simply has to sound good. And I simply do not buy the idea that people really like to listen to it, most of the time they listen to it to annoy other people, to revolt be different or to be disliked or fitted into a certain peergroup. Why else would you dress up like Eric Draven. So honestly don't call me ignorant for seeing through the entire farce. On a sidenote it's not because you use tons of scales and play guitar faster then your own shadow does not make it good. It's just as impressive as... knitting really really fast.

Hmm...quite a controversy growing here.
The great thing about metal is that you can apply virtually any type of music with it. Classical, Renaissance, Blues, Rock, Grunge, Punk even rap and hip hop, and probably more than that.
Now I'm a metalhead. But I like other genres, such as rock, grunge, blues, goth, and some rap (if it's good). I am by no means an elitist. (Why is that word tossed around so much anyways?)
The matter of how good music is depends on your taste and opinion. If you look for complexity and raw musicianship in music, then by that standard, Rap and Hip Hop are horrible. Metal wins in that case. But if you listen for how it sounds, rap/hiphop can be good. The unfortunate thing is, that subject matter used in lyrics for rap/hip hop are usually tasteless and shallow. (Da Club, I-got-sum-ass-last-night, Shawty got drunk, Money Makin, etc.)In the 80s and 90s, rap was good. But in this day and age, I have to take the side that Pop and Hip Hop, are for the most part horrible.

Pathetic that the one thing everyone always says about metal is its complexity. As if the complexity on its own is worth a dime... even worse if it takes a lot of technique and knowledge to make something that (sorry) by the standard of practically the entire population sounds like noise it is even more sad. And like I said before jazz is complex and it sounds good, fusion jazz on the other hand is once again just a way to show how many scales you can possibly fit in a song. Scales and modes should be a WAY to make music sound nice, not a GOAL on its own. Some people confuse expressing yourself freely with making music that is hard to stand.

eSdaze wrote:
And I simply do not buy the idea that people really like to listen to it

I like to listen to it. I know, it's shocking when you realize people may have different tastes. And I don't like it for its technicality (though as a lifelong musician I appreciate that) or its brutalness (which can get ****ing silly). It just sounds good. It makes my days better. You seem very upset that something you don't understand makes other people happy.

I don't get the people calling others eltists, because they acctualy seem to be eltists themselves their opinions may be the opposite to the metalheads but have the same level of "my opinion is fact about them," if you get what I mean.
Anyway just listen to music for how it sounds guys I mean come on ffs, it's entertainment thats all it is.

MoFly41 wrote:
This is why heavy metal and rock n roll for that matter will never be on the top of the charts again. Everyone has this attitude where they feel they're owed something or they're more "classful" than other types of music. Why don't you stop jacking off in the mirror and try to make something relevant to what is actually happening in the world of popular music instead of whining about Lady Gaga. Not until Rock n' Roll came around do people think that popular = bad.
But hey, congrats on being more "classful." Whatever you need to put yourself to sleep at night...

I like metalz. I like classical. Sometimes I find some classical or more specifically baroque to be very shred-tastic. Occasionally find orchestral stuff headbang worthy too. either way this argument has gotten out of hand, and everyone needs to put in their favorite album and shut up.

People like eSdaze make sweeping generalizations and back up their arguments against metal with ignorance and expect to be viewed as objective and open minded? Why? When you're reaching just as low, you're no better than any metal head claiming superiority over pop/hip hop. In fact, your views are actually less inclusive. Metal has a lot of shades, and it's possible to simultaneously enjoy accessible music and extremely brutal and dissonant music, whereas you seem to be some kind of authority on what's music and what is noise.
For the rest of us with brains, we're not masturbating to music we can't comprehend to stroke our ego beef up our credibility. As a music listener, I feel sorry for people like eSdaze. You take a position of superiority, when you're no better or open minded for it at all.

eSdaze wrote:
thrashmonkey wrote:
eSdaze wrote:
by will alone :
lol im pretty sure less than 5% of the people arguing about metal here have actually listened to anything like triptykon or celtic frost
Well I just did honestly, the first title that popped up was: A Dying God Coming Into Human Flesh. First thing that popped into my mind was, how clichd can you heavy metal fans be. How can you stand seeing a title like that. It's the same in your face stuff as calling a song hit me baby one more time.
The next thing I saw was the comment in the song and that guy said. And I quote:i am putting my daughter to﻿ sleep to this tonight
I mean honestly, on the level of weirdo and sick, most metal fans manage to win the gold medal with platinum chips in it with a landslide.
After the obligatory quiet ending (whoo the shocking suspense is building just like bach lol) all hell breaks loose, they start screaming etc etc noise is building. Sounds like someone threw a plugged in amp in a bathtub with someone in it.
Oh and they wore masks and makeup.
Metal more classfull, only if a hemroid is too.
If you hate metal so much, then why are you reading an interview with a metal musician? Or did you not even read the rest of the interview and comment on the one sentence? Also, listening with closed ears doesn't really count, seeing as you clearly only heard what you expected to hear, which was "screaming etc etc." You can choose to miss out on an extremely diverse interesting genre if you want, but what's really the purpose of coming on here and commenting against it? Just makes you look ignorant.
It's not a matter of hating metal, it's a matter of metal as a music genre is a joke. I read it because a headline claimed it was more classful then x and y. And I did read the entire interview, although looking back on it there was not really a point in doing so. Also fyi, you can't close your ears. Unless maybe you listen to metal, like you. Because that would be a prerequisite to enjoy the music being played. And I'm not ignorant, I can actually enjoy Iron Maiden, it's listenable and you can understand the lyrics as they are not singing/speaking/barfing like they got a guestrole in The Exorcist 2. Also their amps do not sound like they got a pedalboard that exists of 15 distortion pedals. Also you do not need to have listened to every existing metal song to have an opinion about it, nor do you need to have dated every women in the world to have an opinion about them. I have an extremely wide and broad taste but it simply has to sound good. And I simply do not buy the idea that people really like to listen to it, most of the time they listen to it to annoy other people, to revolt be different or to be disliked or fitted into a certain peergroup. Why else would you dress up like Eric Draven. So honestly don't call me ignorant for seeing through the entire farce. On a sidenote it's not because you use tons of scales and play guitar faster then your own shadow does not make it good. It's just as impressive as... knitting really really fast.

just keep on bleating like a sheep and believing your stupid stereotypes. what you say won't change anyone's opinion on metal.

MoFly41 wrote:
This is why heavy metal and rock n roll for that matter will never be on the top of the charts again. Everyone has this attitude where they feel they're owed something or they're more "classful" than other types of music. Why don't you stop jacking off in the mirror and try to make something relevant to what is actually happening in the world of popular music instead of whining about Lady Gaga. Not until Rock n' Roll came around do people think that popular = bad.
But hey, congrats on being more "classful." Whatever you need to put yourself to sleep at night...

This is one of the most intelligent things I've ever heard someone say on this site...people ought to accept that hip-hop and pop can still be brilliant art forms, and metal can still suck, just as much as the reverse can be true. Grow up and write some original music instead of acting like patriots to an expired nation.

It's true though. I've always been one to say that if Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or any other Classical Musician were alive today, then they would be playing metal. Metal mainly used all the musical scales they used.

...and this, my friend, is bull. If classical period composers were still alive today, they would consider metal an abominated distortion of the music they loved (not that I agree with that, that's just a more realistic representation of their reaction).

That's true. The worst argument for a metal band I've heard is "at least it's not pop crap". Metal crap is just as bad. But metal's commercial impact or lack thereof, whether or not some of it is accessible is irrelevant. By today's commercial standards, would albums like Kind of Blue have a place for the average listener? No, jazz is dead as a commercial genre. But no one questions it just because they don't like fusion or free jazz.

Kear Bear wrote:
It doesn't seem like he was being an elitist ***** with that comment or trying to bash pop or anything, he was just saying that's how it is... people love controversy.. why do you think Alice Cooper was big back in the day. but pop artists have their personal shit all over the tabloids and therefore sell records.
Ahahaha. Metalheads must get a kick out of being elitist. Personally, I see Beethoven being a freelance rap producer and Mozart exploring avant-garde body percussion.
dude if you listen to alot of metal bands you'll hear alot classical and even renaissance influence.. i can honestly see vivaldi in a metal band.. listen to Summer i can honestly hear it with distorted guitars and basses.. wagner with his heavy bass could honestly run with korn or slipknot.. bach could honestly be compaired to eddie van halen and yngwie malmsteen... it's not just elitist man... alot of metalheads (myself included) i know learn and listen to classical for inspiration

With how many times this guy said honestly i kinda feel like he's lying to me

Robert Gray wrote:
Axeaman wrote:
Grimpond wrote:
Great interview from Tom, sucks that they chose that commet to headline it, there were quotes in this chat were much better
Quoted for truth.
Yeah, you all say that, but how many of you would have read the article otherwise? Not as many.
CobainReborn wrote:
Snoop has a better vocabulary than this guy. Classful? Really?
Snoop Dogg has a better vocabulary than Tom G. Warrior? Really? No he doesn't, not in the slightest.

I would have, I highly respect Tom G. Warrior and his music.
And as far as everyone's going with the whole elitist thing, he's right for the most part, Pop and rap are a dying genre, except for a few artists, as I personally enjoy Lady Gaga and a few others.
For who ever said he has shitty vocabulary, well...English isn't his native language.
Auf Wiedersehen everybody.

Pop's music style will shift, many artists will come and go, but the term "pop" will be applied to whatever happens to be popular at the time. It's been around for decades and will never die. It'll just keep getting plastic surgery and implants.
Mainstream rap has cancer, though. It goes by the name of Lil Wayne.

Here is my take on all of this. Tom G. Warrior has a bad history with the music industry and isn't too happy with how it works. For the reasons of what happened to him back in the 1980's he is extremely jaded about the industry and how it functions. This is the reason why he is the man whose music we enjoy today.
Sadly in the 30ish years since Hellhammer started he has seen a lot and the music industry shifted quite a bit in regards to pop music. There was a point in time when generic Death Metal bands were being pumped out left and right by various Record Labels and caused the birth of Black Metal's second wave.
In the US we have seen the large growth and shift from the hair metal days to the gangster rap and pop music shift. The shift from that to modern pop/rap has not been so kind on either genre. Even though at any point in time they are working on pumping out clones of whatever is big right now. As much as the internet has been a boon to the music industry it's also been a hindrance. It has created people with minimal talent can create a fan base big enough for someone to give them a deal. They then put out a garbage album and it sells and they make money.
As sad as that is I think that Rap has lost a lot of its punch that it had back in the 1990's. There was a lot of talent back there and it has become even more largely irrelevant. There are so many generics now it is worse then ever. I don't know what a lot of people see in most modern Rap artists. Lil Wayne isn't that good and doesn't sound any different then any of his current peers.
I think we need a shift that moves pop away from the center and develops unique talents that can stand on their own.
As for one man's opinion, I do agree with him that a lot of these modern pop artists are just getting a bunch of tabloid fodder just for sales. He has been around for a very long time and knows what he is talking about.
Also as stated his first language isn't English (I'm guessing its German). If this had been done in his native tongue it would be even better, but if you read his blog, he is very well spoken and knows what hes talking about.

Underground hip-hop is the most classful music around these days. Anything from the Jazzmatazz series buy Guru (RIP) to Metaphorical Music by Nujabes (shoot.. RIP again) you will find the most tasteful sounds ever created

I think it depends how you defie classful. Metal in my opinion has much more feeling than hip hop. I have only recently been converted to metalism from being a pop nugget, so I really noticed the massive difference between the meaning in the lyrics.

stargazer5000 wrote:
Metal is a FAR more creative musical outlet than both pop and hip hop combined, can we just leave it at that?

but its not thats the thing and most metal fans end up creating their own 'pop' culture of metal bands (by pop i mean popular music with a group of people)
of course there are different types of metal but most metal fans seem to take pride in that they listen to metal and not pop and hip hop.
while i dont like pop and hip hop that much i listen to beatles, to gnarls barkley and to all other artists who might be considered 'pop' music
while im not against music as a genre its ideaologies dont really appeal to me, to be some alpha-male type character, with the long hair and shit like that
and you knwo whats really funny?
punk and grunge considered metal to be untasteful because it wastent just being yourself. it was fitting in. not with a pop crowd but with a metal one

why do people take pride in what type of music they listen too? i dont get it...
i like everything from bach to the faceless, from bill evans to animals as leaders and i dont take pride in it. i just enjoy it.

Actual pop is getting crappier in the way that as more technology appears you need less talent to put out music, today you can arrange your voice almost with a click and a few plugins. Also I'm tired of all those stereotypical bs on metalheads, as I love metal but I like a lot of music too like jazz, blues, country, classical, baroque, some alt.rock and many more. To all of you metal haters, watch Anvil: The story of Anvil and tell me how "dumb and stupid" they are for being metalheads. Read and analyze the background of the music, the composition process and what the musician tried to express that way you will really enjoy more music instead of whining of everything.

MoFly41 wrote:
This is why heavy metal and rock n roll for that matter will never be on the top of the charts again. Everyone has this attitude where they feel they're owed something or they're more "classful" than other types of music. Why don't you stop jacking off in the mirror and try to make something relevant to what is actually happening in the world of popular music instead of whining about Lady Gaga. Not until Rock n' Roll came around do people think that popular = bad.
But hey, congrats on being more "classful." Whatever you need to put yourself to sleep at night...

sounds like someone likes lagy gaga.
the title says it all. Metal is the shit.

kennydabomb wrote:
why do people take pride in what type of music they listen too? i dont get it...
i like everything from bach to the faceless, from bill evans to animals as leaders and i dont take pride in it. i just enjoy it.

What a bunch of crap in the comments. Just listen to whatever you like and you will be fine. I listen and play a lot of metal, I like blues and jazz, I listen to Greek rebetika, I listen to bach, beethoven and other classical stuff, I even listen to some (mainly oldschool) hiphop and I listen to breakcore, tekno and I even listen to some pop music and whatever makes me tik.
Who besides a bunch of pretentious teenagers argue about what is the highest form of music?
Some kids still need to learn that listening to complex music doesn't automatically make you smart, you didn't actually compose that piece so shut it. Obn the other hand, there's nothing wrong with listening to simple music from time to time, it doesn't make you any dumber then you already are.

You gotta love these metalhead elitists. They're like 911 "Truthers", like they're some oppressed and minority. Either way, it comes across as pissy and butt-hurt. :-/
Just play your goddamn music and stop whining and trying to prove that your lifestyle is legitimate.

Sanarius73 :
MoFly has somewhat of point. He didn't have to be so elitist about it but still. Hip-Hop and Pop are good in their own way and like any other genre, it has it's greats and it's laughing stocks.
Overall though, I give way more credit to full bands than I do to single stage performers. I feel like it takes way more "magic" to have an amazing 4 piece band than it does for one person to sit there with a synth keyboard and write everything straight to Pro-Tools and then layer their vocals, or someone elses.
Music is meant to be "organic" like bands are, not "mechanical" like Pop and Hip-Hop are today.

the only real problem with your comment is the assumption that pop/hip hop artists actually write the music (or even sometimes the lyrics) that go over with their singing. fact is 99% of hip hop is made by selecting already written/recorded material (samples usually), splicing it together and rapping over that. not to say its bad, there are SOME great rap/hip hop artists that do it this way.

eSdaze wrote:
thrashmonkey wrote:
eSdaze wrote:
by will alone :
lol im pretty sure less than 5% of the people arguing about metal here have actually listened to anything like triptykon or celtic frost
Well I just did honestly, the first title that popped up was: A Dying God Coming Into Human Flesh. First thing that popped into my mind was, how clichd can you heavy metal fans be. How can you stand seeing a title like that. It's the same in your face stuff as calling a song hit me baby one more time.
The next thing I saw was the comment in the song and that guy said. And I quote:i am putting my daughter to﻿ sleep to this tonight
I mean honestly, on the level of weirdo and sick, most metal fans manage to win the gold medal with platinum chips in it with a landslide.
After the obligatory quiet ending (whoo the shocking suspense is building just like bach lol) all hell breaks loose, they start screaming etc etc noise is building. Sounds like someone threw a plugged in amp in a bathtub with someone in it.
Oh and they wore masks and makeup.
Metal more classfull, only if a hemroid is too.
If you hate metal so much, then why are you reading an interview with a metal musician? Or did you not even read the rest of the interview and comment on the one sentence? Also, listening with closed ears doesn't really count, seeing as you clearly only heard what you expected to hear, which was "screaming etc etc." You can choose to miss out on an extremely diverse interesting genre if you want, but what's really the purpose of coming on here and commenting against it? Just makes you look ignorant.
It's not a matter of hating metal, it's a matter of metal as a music genre is a joke. I read it because a headline claimed it was more classful then x and y. And I did read the entire interview, although looking back on it there was not really a point in doing so. Also fyi, you can't close your ears. Unless maybe you listen to metal, like you. Because that would be a prerequisite to enjoy the music being played. And I'm not ignorant, I can actually enjoy Iron Maiden, it's listenable and you can understand the lyrics as they are not singing/speaking/barfing like they got a guestrole in The Exorcist 2. Also their amps do not sound like they got a pedalboard that exists of 15 distortion pedals. Also you do not need to have listened to every existing metal song to have an opinion about it, nor do you need to have dated every women in the world to have an opinion about them. I have an extremely wide and broad taste but it simply has to sound good. And I simply do not buy the idea that people really like to listen to it, most of the time they listen to it to annoy other people, to revolt be different or to be disliked or fitted into a certain peergroup. Why else would you dress up like Eric Draven. So honestly don't call me ignorant for seeing through the entire farce. On a sidenote it's not because you use tons of scales and play guitar faster then your own shadow does not make it good. It's just as impressive as... knitting really really fast.

So basically what you're saying is you like metal, but you don't like some subgenres of metal or some interpretations of it...
Alright, welcome to the same boat everyone is in. Now what was your point again?

Probably the worst headline for this interview. Honestly, I wasn't coming much onto the news and whatever sections of UG in a long time, but god damn, does the UG team enjoy readings walls of comments, sparked by titles, rather than the actual content of the article?
Piss poor. Honestly. Even 'Triptykon to me is basically almost like a bonus track.' would have been a better title.

Thunderr777 wrote:
Hmm...quite a controversy growing here.
The great thing about metal is that you can apply virtually any type of music with it. Classical, Renaissance, Blues, Rock, Grunge, Punk even rap and hip hop, and probably more than that.
Now I'm a metalhead. But I like other genres, such as rock, grunge, blues, goth, and some rap (if it's good). I am by no means an elitist. (Why is that word tossed around so much anyways?)
The matter of how good music is depends on your taste and opinion. If you look for complexity and raw musicianship in music, then by that standard, Rap and Hip Hop are horrible. Metal wins in that case. But if you listen for how it sounds, rap/hiphop can be good. The unfortunate thing is, that subject matter used in lyrics for rap/hip hop are usually tasteless and shallow. (Da Club, I-got-sum-ass-last-night, Shawty got drunk, Money Makin, etc.)In the 80s and 90s, rap was good. But in this day and age, I have to take the side that Pop and Hip Hop, are for the most part horrible.

Antics94 wrote:
Ultimate Guitar needs to apply to a bigger fan base, i hate metal and thats all the news they have on this stupid site. Believe or not some of us have ears that work and don't like that garbage.

Then perhaps you should check out the story about the chili peppers on the front page. Or click on the "More" link next to news and check out some of the other trite, formulaic mainstream rock garbage that they post about regularly on this site. Sounds like a good idea, doesn't it? Much better than clicking on a story about a band in a genre you don't like just so you can go on the comments section and be a prick, right?

hiphop is just as musically inclined as metal. Just because they don't mindless jerk off their guitar doesn't mean they aren't as good. Hiphop is all about the groove, the overall sound...which is music that cant have mistakes in it, whereas metal can be filled with mistakes and get away with. Many hiphop songs are harder to make than metal songs. PS do not mistaken gangsta rap as hiphop. Hiphop is Outkast, The Roots, Gnarls Barkley, Mos Def... Gangsta rap is Lil Wayne. There are some good gangsta rappers though (Wu Tang). AND a genre started by a man who drank his own piss (Ozzy) is not as classful as one started by a man who played to distract black people from violence by giving them an alternative means to fill their time (DJ Kool Herc)

Second Rate wrote:
Antics94 wrote:
Ultimate Guitar needs to apply to a bigger fan base, i hate metal and thats all the news they have on this stupid site. Believe or not some of us have ears that work and don't like that garbage.
Then perhaps you should check out the story about the chili peppers on the front page. Or click on the "More" link next to news and check out some of the other trite, formulaic mainstream rock garbage that they post about regularly on this site. Sounds like a good idea, doesn't it? Much better than clicking on a story about a band in a genre you don't like just so you can go on the comments section and be a prick, right?

nincompoop wrote:
You gotta love these metalhead elitists. They're like 911 "Truthers", like they're some oppressed and minority. Either way, it comes across as pissy and butt-hurt. :-/
Just play your goddamn music and stop whining and trying to prove that your lifestyle is legitimate.

people really need to read the context of the quote. Tomm G Warrior is not saying that metal is more classful as in posh or sophisticated, he's simply saying that they don't sell albums by creating controversy in the media, by being seen getting drunk and flashing themselves everywhere, or being known for their sexual antics or whatever. He's basically saying that people know who the pop stars are because every move they make is followed by the media.
On the other hand, metal doesn't need that, and the musicians therefore have more class than Lady Gaga flashing on stage. He's not saying that its better, just that the musicians themselves have more integrity.

rockingamer2 wrote:
Kear Bear wrote:
dude if you listen to alot of metal bands you'll hear alot classical and even renaissance influence.. i can honestly see vivaldi in a metal band.. listen to Summer i can honestly hear it with distorted guitars and basses.. wagner with his heavy bass could honestly run with korn or slipknot.. bach could honestly be compaired to eddie van halen and yngwie malmsteen... it's not just elitist man... alot of metalheads (myself included) i know learn and listen to classical for inspiration
The Renaissance? What metal bands are influence from the Renaissance? I'm sure they are few and far between.
Some metal does have an overt classical influence, but metal as a genre has it's roots in rock, rock n roll and the blues.

OXL wrote:
nincompoop wrote:
You gotta love these metalhead elitists. They're like 911 "Truthers", like they're some oppressed and minority. Either way, it comes across as pissy and butt-hurt. :-/
Just play your goddamn music and stop whining and trying to prove that your lifestyle is legitimate.
Exactly!!!

http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=owMdc5oWQWk
"As a metalhead you're automatically sidelined by society and that forges you together with others." ))