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No. There are reasons other than the fact that he appears he's actively hiding something not to vote for him. That would just knock-off one of the reasons.

If he would start working for a smaller government, actually implement a plan that would stimulate the economy and give investors less uncertainty instead of "walking around money" for Democrat interests, and actually try to act in a bi-partisan manner as he campaigned on, I wouldn't have much to complain about though.

No. There are reasons other than the fact that he appears he's actively hiding something not to vote for him. That would just knock-off one of the reasons.

Exactly. Therefore, what possible reason could there be for Obama to submit to your demands?

- Legally, he's satisfied the political bodies responsible for determining his qualification to hold the office of President.
- Any court cases attempting to force him to expose his long form (nod to CRASH) have been dismissed.
- Anybody who is willing to believe that he might not be natural born wouldn't vote for him even if he *was* natural born.

He's got nothing to gain by disclosing the documents you demand and potentially much to lose.

Exactly. Therefore, what possible reason could there be for Obama to submit to your demands?

So people only have to be transparent and honest if it will gain them votes?

He's got nothing to gain by disclosing the documents you demand and potentially much to lose.

One doesn't have to vote for someone to respect their honesty in a matter. But, you are correct. Being honest and transparent very well may hurt him greatly. Liars and cheats need every advantage they can get when they are trying to get one over on people.

So people only have to be transparent and honest if it will gain them votes?

So, here's the thing: only a handful of people believe he *hasn't* been transparent and honest in this matter, most of who are disinclined to believe anything he says simply because of the political party he represents. What possible reason would there be for him to go out of his way to try to appease them?

The man said he was "here" when Obama was born. WHAT ELSE would that mean, given that anyone speaking proper English who was claiming that they were with Obama's parents at the time of his birth would have said he was "there?"

Is English your first language?

What's your first language, WTF.
Seriously, WTF is the matter with you.
Here as in Hawaii.
He knew the parents.
His mother must have been showing before his birth.

So, here's the thing: only a handful of people believe he *hasn't* been transparent and honest in this matter

A handful is probably a pretty outrageous understatement.

While there are a lot of people who haven't followed the matter, and don't realize that he's hiding something, I'm pretty sure there's enough reasonable people who could be convinced by him acting transparently and some people who don't suspect there's anything he's hiding who still scratch their heads because they think it's a dumb move one his part to keep it hidden if there's nothing to hide.

...most of who are disinclined to believe anything he says simply because of the political party he represents. What possible reason would there be for him to go out of his way to try to appease them?

What possible reason would there be for him to be honest and transparent? I guess because that's what he promised. I don't remember him saying he would engage in that manner for just the stuff he thought was important for the people who voted for him. That would be pretty partisan, petty and not really something that would set a very good example.

What's your first language, WTF.
Seriously, WTF is the matter with you.
Here as in Hawaii.
He knew the parents.
His mother must have been showing before his birth.

But then he was probably lying, right?

All irrelevant to whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii. That's my point. The Governor never implied that he actually saw Mrs Obama within a time frame which would have made it impossible for her to have had Obama any place other than Hawaii.

I asked for any citations from anyone who has made a claim. I was criticized because I didn't include the quote from the Governor, when the quote from the Governor is irrelevant.

What possible reason would there be for him to be honest and transparent? I guess because that's what he promised. I don't remember him saying he would engage in that manner for just the stuff he thought was important for the people who voted for him. That would be pretty partisan, petty and not really something that would set a very good example.

In other words, you can't think of any reasons for Obama to appease the demands of the birthers either.

Let's assume he isn't natural born.
- Disclosing that would cost him his job.

Let's assume he *is* natural born.
- He's already proven to the necessary agencies that he qualifies to hold the office of President
- Those who might vote for him clearly didn't buy into the argument that he isn't being honest and transparent (hence his winning the election)
- Those who believe he isn't being honest and transparent in this matter wouldn't support him even if he *did* appease their demands
- Appeasing the demands of the radicals in this matter could be used against him politically ( "he appeased on this, what's he gonna do when some terrorists make demands of him?" )

Same as Bush. There's a ton of credibility hits you can take before it costs you the election. But of course, no one really understood how easy it would have been for Obama to have gotten a Hawaiian COLB had he been born outside the US, before the last year or so when someone dug up the rules and regulations that were in place at the time.

Myself, I figured he would have either had to have had something forged to get a COLB and not be born in the US, so I really didn't give it that much thought.

In other words, you can't think of any reasons for Obama to appease the demands of the birthers either.

Bill Clinton couldn't think of any reasons to appease the demands of a federal court either, and he kept his job too.

There is a huge chasm between doing what will keep you in office, and what's honest and transparent. Obama's not just the President of the voters that elected. He's everyone's President. Everyone's President really shouldn't be hiding things. In the past, the media had always put pressure on Presidents when they were hiding things. Oh...I should have said "Republican Presidents." Dan Rather went so far as to use forged documents to put pressure on Bush.

Let's assume he isn't natural born.
- Disclosing that would cost him his job.

Let's assume he's a serial killer. Disclosing that would probably cost him his job as well. What kind of fraud or criminal behavior would you tolerate the President hiding?

Given that he's clearly hiding something, I don't see an upside either way either. The down side is that he lied about all the "trasparency" and honest business.

is it really that surprising to you that a politician isn't being completely honest and transparent? They *all* have secrets; it's pretty much impossible to get to their level of politics without acquiring a few things you'd rather not be known by the public.

Or, he's acting on principle by not caving in to the demands of extremists.

Hawaii's health director said in 2008 and 2009 that she had seen and verified Obama's original vital records, and birth notices in two Honolulu newspapers were published within days of Obama's birth at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu.

It's a conspiracy I tell ya.

That information, called index data, shows a listing for "Obama II, Barack Hussein, Male," according to the department's website.

is it really that surprising to you that a politician isn't being completely honest and transparent? They *all* have secrets; it's pretty much impossible to get to their level of politics without acquiring a few things you'd rather not be known by the public.

Nixon would have never had to leave office if he was President in this day and age.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I wouldn't say it's a "given" that he's clearly hiding something. It's certainly one possibility, but it's clear that you're simply not capable of seeing any of the other possible explanations.

I've asked for explanations of rational possibilities and I'ver really not heard of any which would make it better to keep quiet if there was nothing to hide. From what I've heard, even a lot of his supporters who don't think there's a problem with his actual citizenship think that he's probably hiding something.

It's a conspiracy I tell ya.

Really, no "conspiracy" is needed. She could have seen all of that and he could still have easily not been born in the US. If you went in and showed proof that you lived in Hawaii for the past year, you'd get a COLB and they would pass the info onto the newspapers. Even if your child was born outside the US, despite the fact that the law regarding US citizenship were more stringent.

Before the new Hawaiian Gov went on this Birth Certificate hunt, I didn't have any doubts about Obama's birth certificate. Now that this has happened, I now believe that he was not born in the US. I believe that Obama's Presidency is a complete scam.

Before the new Hawaiian Gov went on this Birth Certificate hunt, I didn't have any doubts about Obama's birth certificate. Now that this has happened, I now believe that he was not born in the US. I believe that Obama's Presidency is a complete scam.

Just like Bush's two terms, right? Because apparently unsubstantiated here-say from fringe lunatics is enough evidence for you.

"It`s much easier for a president to move his agenda forward if the electorate perceives him as an honest individual worthy of respect. Only 58 percent of Americans believe that Obama was born in the US, the president has a very serious credibility problem with the American public."

So, are the 42% of people who think that Obama isn't telling the truth about his birth extremists? Seems like a pretty big number, if accurate. Seems like a big enough number that if you could erase half (likely) with $10 and a phone call, you'd do it. That is, unless being seen by a huge chunk of the population as a fraud is worse than acting and proving that it's true!

You mean the 42% of an unnamed amount of people who took the time to answer a question based on Obama's ineligibility? Yes, those people are fringe lunatics and you are looking more like one every day stupendous...

You mean the 42% of an unnamed amount of people who took the time to answer a question based on Obama's ineligibility? Yes, those people are fringe lunatics and you are looking more like one every day stupendous...

I'm guessing it was a random sample, done scientifically. No better or worse than any other poll. Even if there's a decent size margin of error, there's a pretty big segment of the populace who think Obama is lying about something, and he's really not done everything he can to set the record straight. You can't just chalk that up to the "fringe."

I'm guessing it was a random sample, done scientifically. No better or worse than any other poll. Even if there's a decent size margin of error, there's a pretty big segment of the populace who think Obama is lying about something, and he's really not done everything he can to set the record straight. You can't just chalk that up to the "fringe."

You're guessing??? I'm curious, did you just accept those numbers blindly, without any question as to their source? Personally, I was curious as to where the Hawaii Reporter came up with these numbers, so I did a little of your research for you.

The only place where I was able to find the number 42 in association with Obama's birth was in a Research 2000 poll conducted for the Daily Kos in 2009. In this poll they found that 42% of those identifying themselves as Republicans believed Obama was natural born. 28% believed he wasn't and 30% were unsure.Daily Kos: Birthers are mostly Republican and Southern

*MY* guess is that someone from the Hawaii Reporter found these numbers, completely misunderstood them and presented that misunderstanding as fact without reference. And, then, you in turn presented them as fact without question.

I'm guessing it was a random sample, done scientifically. No better or worse than any other poll. Even if there's a decent size margin of error, there's a pretty big segment of the populace who think Obama is lying about something, and he's really not done everything he can to set the record straight. You can't just chalk that up to the "fringe."

You take on faith that this probable poll "was a random sample, done scientifically," but cannot trust a large number of completely impartial individuals (and a number of individuals opposed to Mr. Obama's candidacy) to have followed well documented legal processes? The source article gives absolutely no information about the source of the "[o]nly 58% of Americans believe Obama was born in the US" statement. The articles tone and bluster demonstrate the writer's prejudice in the matter, which gives me reason to doubt the veracity of any figures presented in it. The writer gives me no reason to believe that his data are valid, and several reasons to doubt him.

On the other hand, the Constitutional process for qualifying a presidential candidate is itself transparent. And it does not include any requirement to make public anyone's birth certificate.

You're guessing??? I'm curious, did you just accept those numbers blindly, without any question as to their source? Personally, I was curious as to where the Hawaii Reporter came up with these numbers, so I did a little of your research for you.

I didn't accept them "blindly." I made it clear at the outset that the whole supposition was based on whether or not the numbers were accurate with the idea that it was possible that they weren't since they didn't directly list their source.

The only place where I was able to find the number 42 in association with Obama's birth was in a Research 2000 poll conducted for the Daily Kos in 2009. In this poll they found that 42% of those identifying themselves as Republicans believed Obama was natural born. 28% believed he wasn't and 30% were unsure.Daily Kos: Birthers are mostly Republican and Southern

*MY* guess is that someone from the Hawaii Reporter found these numbers, completely misunderstood them and presented that misunderstanding as fact without reference. And, then, you in turn presented them as fact without question.

This "guess" would of course make a lot assumptions as well, like the fact that 0% of Democrats think he's not a citizen which I'm guessing probably isn't the case.

I'll concede that neither their number and/or your number could possibly be WAY off.

Neither numbers provides a good explanation as to why Obama still insists on being non-transparent and wants to hide his birth certificate, or lack thereof. What is truly telling is that I can't seem to find (again...I guess it's possible it exists somewhere) anyone with any kind of authority who will even go on record as stating that there is a hospital produced "birth certificate" on file with the State of Hawaii - which should be the case if he were born there. That would seem to be something the state could verify without actually releasing the document, if it exists. All we get is slippery words that don't actually explain what original documentation there is.

I didn't accept them "blindly." I made it clear at the outset that the whole supposition was based on whether or not the numbers were accurate with the idea that it was possible that they weren't since they didn't directly list their source.

How, exactly, did you do that? At the outset. Because I know it's difficult for you, I've included a copy of your post so you can point out where you question the validity of your numbers by stating that they didn't directly list their source:

"It`s much easier for a president to move his agenda forward if the electorate perceives him as an honest individual worthy of respect. Only 58 percent of Americans believe that Obama was born in the US, the president has a very serious credibility problem with the American public."

So, are the 42% of people who think that Obama isn't telling the truth about his birth extremists? Seems like a pretty big number, if accurate. Seems like a big enough number that if you could erase half (likely) with $10 and a phone call, you'd do it. That is, unless being seen by a huge chunk of the population as a fraud is worse than acting and proving that it's true!

Originally Posted by stupendousman

This "guess" would of course make a lot assumptions as well, like the fact that 0% of Democrats think he's not a citizen which I'm guessing probably isn't the case.

Actually, if you bothered to take a look at the source I linked to, you might notice that it claims 4% of Democrats thinks he's not a citizen. But, I can see that I might be expecting too much of you there.

Originally Posted by stupendousman

I'll concede that neither their number and/or your number could possibly be WAY off.

Neither numbers provides a good explanation as to why Obama still insists on being non-transparent and wants to hide his birth certificate, or lack thereof. What is truly telling is that I can't seem to find (again...I guess it's possible it exists somewhere) anyone with any kind of authority who will even go on record as stating that there is a hospital produced "birth certificate" on file with the State of Hawaii - which should be the case if he were born there. That would seem to be something the state could verify without actually releasing the document, if it exists. All we get is slippery words that don't actually explain what original documentation there is.

I like how you're suddenly critical when numbers are presented that aren't as favourable to your position ... especially when the numbers I've offered might be the original source for your numbers, suggesting that you should vet your sources a little better. I agree with Glenn; it's interesting that you'll accept unreferenced numbers from a blog and yet question the integrity of the American electoral system.

I'm not presenting the Daily Kos numbers as anything closely representing fact ... I'm only trying to find a source for *your* numbers. Personally, I wouldn't even consider posting unreferenced numbers from an unknown blog. Many factors are important when considering the validity of a poll. It should not be assumed that "it was a random sample, done scientifically". You need to know how many people were surveyed (the less people, the less accurate), where they were surveyed and what questions were asked. Even better would be to have a demographic breakdown of those surveyed.

After all is said and done, I still maintain that people who believe Obama isn't natural born are extremists, based solely on the lack of massive public outcry and lack of coverage in the media ... *including* Fox, who would be all over something like this if more of their viewers believed it to be true.

One thing you can say about these "birthers" ... they are some persistent little buggers that's for sure!

OAW

Sometimes persistence is the only thing that will uncover the truth.

Apparently, there's now a former Hawaiian government election official who has sworn an affadavit that he was told by his superiors that "no long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate existed for Barack Obama Jr. in Hawaii and that neither Queens Medical Center nor Kapi'olani Medical Center in Honolulu had any record of Obama having been born in their medical facilities."

"Senior officers in the City and County of Honolulu Elections Division told me on multiple occasions that no Hawaii long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate existed for Senator Obama in the Hawaii Department of Health," Adams' affidavit reads, "and there was no record that any such document had ever been on file in the Hawaii Department of Health or any other branch or department of the Hawaii government."

We know that no Hawaiian official has ever gone on record claiming that such a document is known to exist (and instead have used "weasel words"), and if it doesn't exist it's highly unlikely that Obama was born at either of the hospitals in the city. I believe that It's pretty much a matter of the same degree of improbability for Obama to have been born in Hawaii without a "birth certificate" as it is for his COLB or any other document to be forged, IMO.

Obama could clear this all up. He chooses not to. That's nuttier behavior than any "birther" if you ask me, unless he's hiding something serious that he's lied about in the past.

Your "Hawaii Official" is a freaking clerk dude! You roll with that if you want to. I'll roll with what the director of the Hawaii Department of Health had to say ....

On Oct. 31, 2008, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii Department of Health, issued this statement: "There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

"Therefore I, as director of health for the state of Hawaii, along with the registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

"No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the state of Hawaii."

Even the governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle, a Republican who at the time was stumping for John McCain, said it was on the up-and-up.

It seems suspicious to me that WND isn't showing us the actual affidavit. What are they hiding? And, for that matter do we even know that this clerk was actually employed City and County of Honolulu Elections Division? Where are his employment records? Does he even exist? Where is his long form birth certificate?

I also love that WND is so considerate as to insert a link in the middle of the story selling a DVD for $17.99 telling all the details of Obamas secret.

Seems that most all of the information has been released for free already, that I can tell. Publications often times though do have links on their websites for products, services and even special publications and reports. I believe it's known by the term "advertising" by most of the publishing industry.

Originally Posted by OAW

Your "Hawaii Official" is a freaking clerk dude! You roll with that if you want to. I'll roll with what the director of the Hawaii Department of Health had to say ....

Thanks for the quote. I remember one of the health department officials making some kind of statement, but I thought it was more general. However, one has to wonder that if with all the more recent disclosures and comments, the director may have misspoke and generalized on the type of documentation found. Possibly a clerk checked, and told the directors that Obama's records where found (as the current governor has stated) and the assumption was that it was a hospital generated "birth certificate" instead of just a record of birth.

We can find out for sure and clear up the confusion by just asking Obama why he doesn't just request the release of the document. Has any mainstream journalist really made any effort to dig and find out why, when it would be so easy?

He might not have a choice in 2012. We'll see how this stands up in court, and if Obama fights this wouldn't that look really bad?

Or, WND is making the whole thing up to generate clicks and DVD sales ...

What facts have they made up? Is Obama really willing to have his birth certificate released and they've gotten it wrong?

I started this thread because I previously had figured that it would have been really difficult for Obama to have been born outside the United States and have the documentation he did (COLB, Newspaper clippings). I thought that it would have at the very least required forgery or some kind of conspiracy after the fact, and that was a little far fetched.

That viewpoint was based on not having all of the information in hand to make a proper decision. It wasn't until recently that sources like WND uncovered facts that show that the documentation Obama has could have EASILY been gotten by someone who was not born on American soil. ABC News didn't report this. NBC or CBS either. Not a peep on CNN.

I asked for people to post any additional evidence which would show that Obama was actually born in Hawaii, given that the documentation he has could have been gotten from a non-citizen. Someone said that there were people who claimed to have seen Obama's mother in Hawaii right before/during/after his birth. A credible eyewitness would go far to showing what Obama has claimed is true. I've yet to see a quote from anyone in this regard (though it could be out there.)

Also, I asked about a government official going on record as saying that his hospital generated "Long Form" was on record with the state. It was shown that at one point the head of the state health department said that his "birth certificate" was on file. However, many people use the term "birth certificate" and "certificate of live birth" interchangeably, and I don't know if the statement is definitive to the actual hospital generated birth certificate.

There SHOULD BE additional documentation that could be released which would answer some of the questions regarding exactly where Obama was born, but the President chooses not to request it's release. There doesn't seem to be any solid, verifiable evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, given the facts besides other than just taking his word for it. I was looking for something that would pretty much provide a reason OTHER than he wasn't born in Hawaii, as the reason he's stonewalling. I haven't really gotten that. The best we've gotten is a single official who claimed something, but it wasn't all that specific.

He claims that Ambercrombie's office told him that he had all relevant departments and hospital scoured and he could not come up with a copy of his hospital produced birth certificate. The Youtube audio above are the words coming out of Evans mouth. It could very well be that Evans isn't telling the truth, but given that Ambercrombie promised to release more info and hasn't even been able to publicly verify that there is a "long form" on record, it would appear that this is likely true.

Of course, Obama could clear all this up. He chooses not to. That speaks volumes. I'm guessing this will be an even bigger issue come election time, should Obama choose to run. Last election cycle, when it really wasn't known how easy it was to get a COLB, a lot of people gave the "benefit of the doubt." Now that it's known, and it's clear that Obama is stonewalling the release of any other documents, and several states are looking at legislation that would make it harder to run for President without an actual birth certificate - I'm thinking the smart PR move is the release the info UNLESS he really wasn't born in the U.S. and he's been engaging in fraud. It's always a better idea though to suffer from people thinking you are dishonest than opening your mouth and removing all doubt, AND ending up in prison.

"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts

It would have the official raised seal and be considered official by the state of Hawaii?

This.

There's nothing to stop the state from confirming it's an official document provided by them if it were. While there are some nuts who won't believe anything you give them (like the "truthers" on the other side), there's a pretty good number of people who don't think that any of the documents in question are forged, but that Obama is still hiding something. Releasing an official government copy - something he's been reluctant to do so far - would go far in convincing a lot of people that he's not engaging in some kind of fraud.

While we are talking conspiracy theories, maybe the "birthers" have some kind of high tech brainwashing equipment that sends thought patterns over the air and they transmit orders for Obama not to release his birth certificate so that they'll have something to do? They also broadcast to the people who claim they were told by government officials that no certificate exists, and even got to Obama's grandma years back and told her to say that his birth was in Mombassa.

I could make up a billboard too, if that would make things more convincing....

A celebrity journalist now claims he misspoke when he said last week that Hawaii’s governor told him he was unable to find President Barack Obama’s original birth certificate after a search of state and hospital archives.

Mike Evans told FoxNews.com on Wednesday he was remorseful and embarrassed that he appeared to have given the impression that he had discussed the search for Obama’s birth certificate with Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie.

Evans, who says he has been a close friend of Abercrombie since the 1980s, appeared on Minnesota’s KQRS radio last week and said he’d been told by the governor himself that Obama’s birth certificate was nowhere to be found. Evans told KQRS on Jan. 20:

"Yesterday, talking to Neil's office, Neil says that he searched everywhere using his powers as governor ..... there is no Barack Obama birth certificate in Hawaii. Absolutely no proof at all that he was born in Hawaii."

But that’s no longer Evans’ story.

“Only this I can you tell you is 100 percent fact: that Neil never told me there was no birth certificate,” Evans told Fox News. “I never talked to him.”

All of this because this reporter decides to talk about the story where the clerk who doesn't even work in the relevant department is making these claims about what he heard so and so say about President Obama's long-form, hospital issued birth certificate.

But, if Obama already has the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, the Registrar of Vital Statistics, and Governor of Hawaii in his pocket, what makes you think they couldn't just fabricate a "long form" birth certificate with the official raised seal?

All of this because this reporter decides to talk about the story where the clerk who doesn't even work in the relevant department is making these claims about what he heard so and so say about President Obama's long-form, hospital issued birth certificate.

OAW

So, Obama has gotten to Mike Evans and even Fox News?!?!

Originally Posted by Fox News

In 2008, the Obama campaign provided a certification of live birth -- a shorter form document that bears the same legal weight as the more detailed original certificate of live birth -- to prove his eligibility to be president.

Apparently not, because this was deemed insufficient by you with the certificate that was released, right?

You need to follow along. The certificate that was released could have easily have been gotten by someone who was born outside the United States. A hospital generated "birth certificate" couldn't have. Start at the beginning of the thread.