I'd also end the Herrman experiment. He has scored 2 pts each in the last 2 games and hit three 3-pointers in the last 7 games..(a total of 21 points)..talking about a waist of time. I am sure that even if we would have gotten those same 21 points out of Afflolo, we could have prevented at least 3 hoops a game ...Didn't come into play tonight, but something that needs to be considered the next few games ......Just one mans opinion.

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Believe me, you aren't the only one that thinks along these lines. Herrmann is just horrible. If he can't make open shots, what purpose does he serve on the court?

Only one man's opinion actually counts though... hopefully we've seen the last of him for awhile.

Ok, here is my take probably closer to Micro. First, yes, to Lee, Dre and others, the Atlanta young bigs pushed our guys around and that was the difference plus a few turnovers. Hortford and Smith rebounded, followed up misses AND scored. On a back to back our old bigs, couldn't handle them.

But here is where I side more with Micro, I don't see evidence that our young bigs can compete at that level either. Maxiel made a nice play or two but he does not rebound or score with the Atlanta bigs. Kwame and Hermann have been almost without a purpose out there. Amir doesn't play and cannot score like the Atlanta young bigs anyway. The problem of our aging bigs and the inability of our young bigs (who were not drafted high anyway) to compensate is where the Piston team has fallen a level. It is not the fault of Joe but a consequence of finishing first for so many years.

I don't think that AI would be the answer here because the problem is on the front line. We still might beat this team in a playoff situation but it would be a tough call.

Pretty good playoff type practice for our squad tonight. The only difference I saw was that they made 4 more free throws than us, which was the case mainly because of the insanity in the early 4th quarter with the whistles as we hit our foul limit with 8:30 to go in the game.

We got more offensive rebounds, and played very tough. It was nice to see the team try to go through Sheed when we really needed to score in the 4th... even though it didn't work out very well. I still like that reflex with guys like Rip taking the 3's rather than the other way around.

ATL is a pretty nice team. They play big. You could see early on in the game how many of our shots weren't taken because of their shot blockers. 6-20 overall shooting from Dyess and Sheed was mainly a result of their toughness inside. Sheed throwing up some nasty hooks because of the pressure.

It was really surprising that Rip and Max got a combined 0 free throws too, for how hard they played and how many they've gotten in recent games.

For me, it's nice to see a loss where I just feel like we gave it a good effort and came up short to a team with some actual ability. Even the end game was handled by MC in a manner that actually made sense. We took 3's when we needed to, fouled at the correct times, and tried to get the quick 2 when all else failed.

Our two starting big men are 33-34 years old and we should have two old men playing out there together for long stretches as it hurts the D. the problem is our backups are not consistent, but we have to play them. Max has played well during the streak, (winning) but he could revert to Mr. inconsistent as early as...well tonight.

Sometimes you don't want to fix it, if it ain't broken, but Dice scoring is down the past couple of games and you have to wonder if he is wearing down. Seems that with your sixth man AI gone for another 10 days, maybe you start Amir and have Dice in there with the second unit until AI returns. That would at least put a youngster in there with Sheed instead of Dice and Sheed getting beaten in the middle like they did tonight.

I'd also end the Herrman experiment. He has scored 2 pts each in the last 2 games and hit three 3-pointers in the last 7 games..(a total of 21 points)..talking about a waist of time. I am sure that even if we would have gotten those same 21 points out of Afflolo, we could have prevented at least 3 hoops a game ...Didn't come into play tonight, but something that needs to be considered the next few games ......Just one mans opinion.

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Excellent post Dre. We are suffering from a serious lack of talent in the frontcourt. MC has few options other than play Sheed and Dyess. Dyess looks spent. Sheed looks okay, but he just cannot stay with those youngsters for 35 minutes per game. Joe has overrated his talent. Amir, Max, Kwame are not the answer. At this point, for the sake of Dyess, start Amir or Kwame. Dyess needs more rest. And no more Walter, please.

Rasheed and Antonio play nearly 20 less minutes than the Horford/Smith combo

The team gets just as many defensive rebounds as Atlanta

The team gets more offensive rebounds than Atlanta, thanks largely to Antonio, who was a beast on the offensive glass (Amir gets 6 offensive rebounds and the fanclub screams that he should have played 48 minutes...stupid Curry)

Stating that those old frontcourt men got pushed around by Atlanta sounds a little revisionist to me.

Excellent post by Ernie summing up why we really lost the game. I'll try to make it even simpler.

Our two starting big men are 33-34 years old and we should have two old men playing out there together for long stretches as it hurts the D. the problem is our backups are not consistent, but we have to play them. Max has played well during the streak, (winning) but he could revert to Mr. inconsistent as early as...well tonight.

Sometimes you don't want to fix it, if it ain't broken, but Dice scoring is down the past couple of games and you have to wonder if he is wearing down. Seems that with your sixth man AI gone for another 10 days, maybe you start Amir and have Dice in there with the second unit until AI returns. That would at least put a youngster in there with Sheed instead of Dice and Sheed getting beaten in the middle like they did tonight.

I'd also end the Herrman experiment. He has scored 2 pts each in the last 2 games and hit three 3-pointers in the last 7 games..(a total of 21 points)..talking about a waist of time. I am sure that even if we would have gotten those same 21 points out of Afflolo, we could have prevented at least 3 hoops a game ...Didn't come into play tonight, but something that needs to be considered the next few games ......Just one mans opinion.

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Well put Dre. I was thinking the same thing last night. Maybe I am misinterpreting what Lee is saying but I think the problem is not so much Sheed and Dice but the minutes they are playing.

We get diminishing returns when we play them too long and it is magnified when we play them too long together. It is not a matter of AJ, Max and Kwame having a huge impact on the game on their own (although I believe in certain situations and consistent playing time they could) but a matter of keeping Sheed and Dice fresh to finish.

Getting 10 minutes out of AJ and Max each game should help keep both Sheed and Dice fresh to finish strong. They start each game pretty good but it seems once we reach the halfway point of the first quarter they start to slow down. Maybe they feel the need to conserve energy when they know there is a lot more court time they are going to have to log or maybe it is truly their bodies responding.

If we could keep them apart until the final 5 or 6 minutes of the game I think we would finish better. That means we need to use the younger bigs to fill those minutes. If the youngs are having success; let them play. If they are not then hopefully they can at least keep the game close. Game time is what they need and rest throughout the game is what Dice and Sheed need in order to finish strong.

And I agree that we need to find time for AA. Would have loved to see him stay on the floor last night after hitting that three. We need to rebuild his confidence and I think an opportunity to da that might have been wasted last night.

Well put Dre. I was thinking the same thing last night. Maybe I am misinterpreting what Lee is saying but I think the problem is not so much Sheed and Dice but the minutes they are playing.

We get diminishing returns when we play them too long and it is magnified when we play them too long together. It is not a matter of AJ, Max and Kwame having a huge impact on the game on their own (although I believe in certain situations and consistent playing time they could) but a matter of keeping Sheed and Dice fresh to finish.

Getting 10 minutes out of AJ and Max each game should help keep both Sheed and Dice fresh to finish strong. They start each game pretty good but it seems once we reach the halfway point of the first quarter they start to slow down. Maybe they feel the need to conserve energy when they know there is a lot more court time they are going to have to log or maybe it is truly their bodies responding.

If we could keep them apart until the final 5 or 6 minutes of the game I think we would finish better. That means we need to use the younger bigs to fill those minutes. If the youngs are having success; let them play. If they are not then hopefully they can at least keep the game close. Game time is what they need and rest throughout the game is what Dice and Sheed need in order to finish strong.

And I agree that we need to find time for AA. Would have loved to see him stay on the floor last night after hitting that three. We need to rebuild his confidence and I think an opportunity to da that might have been wasted last night.

Just one mans opinion that agrees with another mans opinion.

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Its been tried, several times. And we lose, game after game. Yep, we were losing the games in the end with this combo even before Dyess began starting. Its a bad combination, fresh or otherwise.

PS, the exact details are in some thread somewhere about how bad we were doing with these two paired to end tight games. Anyone who can remember which thread, please do share.

Indeed, there's no home court adv. I went to this game last night and since there are so many people around this damn city who are from Detroit, it's basically a home game. Hell Atlanta "fans" don't even show up until halftime! Who the hell buys tickets to show up at halftime? unbelievable.

i don't know who's posted what--but Rodney Stuckey to me is the reason this is a loss. (And Hermann's wasted damn time out there. He should get ALL his time taken by Afflalo). Stuckey doesn't do the little things yet. Make consistent post passes; recognize when/when not to drive; Slow the hell down and set something up

He doesn't do that. He had about 5-8 WASTED possessions that ended up with missed layups (driving when he shouldn't be); blocked shots, turnovers, etc. Those 5-8 messups turned into points. My old coach called them 4 point turnarounds when you miss your two points and they get two points.

This happened too many times and it cost us the game. Also--Sheed goes TONS of possessions without even attempting to establish post position. I could see if he posted up and then we didn't throw the ball into him...but on SEVERAL plays--he goes INTO the post...but he isn't there for any REASON. Just there because the play calls for him to start there.

He doesn't do that. He had about 5-8 WASTED possessions that ended up with missed layups (driving when he shouldn't be); blocked shots, turnovers, etc. Those 5-8 messups turned into points. My old coach called them 4 point turnarounds when you miss your two points and they get two points.

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I agree. But this is the process of learning to lead an NBA team. This is the sort of thing Billups was going through in Minny before we got him.

Even without AI, we have the best roster in the League. When AI returns, we will have a great bench, but still lose games because we are starting two old men side by side who will continue to lose game after game for us. It is not the roster, its Curry pairing Dyess and Sheed, and not seeing what most fans see - two old men, both fine centers, but prety horrid power forwards at their age.

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Come on man I wouldn't even put our bench in the top 15. IMO the best roster in the league are the Lakers, hands down.

I would agree with you on the Dyess and Sheed pairing though. Curry has a tendency to overplay them, but let's be real we don't have too many options. Dyess and Sheed can both score. They are our only scoring bigs. Max can not score. The only thing Amir can do really well is foul. My grandma has better hands then Kwame. That's what he has to choose from. We are not going to win a championship with Amir, Max or Kwame playing big minutes (not to say we would with Dyess and Sheed playing, but its a way better chance).

We have no one coming off the bench that you know can score. We need an offense powerhouse off the bench (AI PLEASE!). We need AI to make this thing work this season (if it'll work at all).

The problem is, as others have stated, we have no real 6th man. Max is the closest to it and he's not exactly what I would call an offensively gifted player. Don't get me wrong I like Max and I pull for him, but he's not consistent enough. However, I do agree we have some decent role players. When Max is on he brings energy and offensive rebounding. Bynum has been pretty good lately too as the backup PG. Hermann, not so much. Affalo, dude can't even get off the bench lately. He's just stuck in the logjam at SG.

The starters have definitely played better lately, but we really need AI to come off the bench, accept this role and light it up because we need that scoring 6th man off the bench.

EDIT: I only read up to page 5 before I posted this, but after posting and reading the rest I see that I've reiterated alot of points already said. Basically what I'm trying to say is what do you want Curry to do? If Amir, Max, or Kwame aren't any good then why shouldn't he play Sheed and Dyess. That's our best chance right now. I really do not think Amir, Max, or Kwame are any better then Dyess or Sheed. Both Dyess and Sheed have well rounded skills sets. Good defensive players, well rounded offensive game, basketball IQ, and just a general feel for the game that Max, Amir, and Kwame seem to either lack or not have all four.

I would agree with you on the Dyess and Sheed pairing though. Curry has a tendency to overplay them, but let's be real we don't have too many options. Dyess and Sheed can both score. They are our only scoring bigs.

So, if we go with Max, we get more scoring than Dyess on less shot attempts and we get to the line much more.

The main reason Dyess scores more than these other bigs is that he gets more minutes and takes more shots.

The real question to me is how do the big man combinations work together. Do we want 2 jump shooting bigs who are both good defensive rebounders to be paired together? Do we want two lane clogging garbage men who crash the offensive boards paired together? Do we want two 34 year olds getting heavy minutes in the regular season? Or do we want to create pairings of players who compliment eachother?

Put me down for sitting Herman. His offensive bursts every 3rd or 4th game do not make up for the bad defense and ball handling. AA is actually a better shooter.

Kwame Brown is off to his worst year ever, Maxiel and Amir have been de-progressing. Lot of our frontcourt woes is due to the system itself. If the guys can get more established roles then they will play better.