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I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:04:15 PM by Severian »

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

I meant from an Orthodox Christian perspective, not a Jewish perspective. That is why I put it in the "faith issues" board.

my apologies.

No problem.

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Judaism (from the Latin Iudaismus, derived from the Greek Ioudaïsmos, and ultimately from the Hebrew יהודה, Yehudah, "Judah"; in Hebrew: יַהֲדוּת, Yahadut, the distinctive characteristics of the Judean ethnos) is the religion, philosophy and way of life of the Jewish people. A monotheistic religion originating in the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Tanakh) and explored in later texts such as the Talmud, Judaism is considered by religious Jews to be the expression of the covenantal relationship God established with the Children of Israel. Rabbinic Judaism holds that God revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah. This assertion was historically challenged by the Karaites, a movement that flourished in the medieval period, which retains several thousand followers today and maintains that only the Written Torah was revealed. In modern times, liberal movements such as Humanistic Judaism may be nontheistic.

Judaism claims a historical continuity spanning more than 3,000 years. It is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, and the oldest to survive into the present day. The Hebrews / Israelites were already referred to as "Jews" in later books of the Tanakh such as the Book of Esther, with the term Jews replacing the title "Children of Israel". Judaism's texts, traditions and values strongly influenced later Abrahamic religions, including Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Many aspects of Judaism have also directly or indirectly influenced secular Western ethics and civil law.

Jews are an ethnoreligious group and include those born Jewish and converts to Judaism. In 2010, the world Jewish population was estimated at 13.4 million, or roughly 0.2% of the total world population. About 42% of all Jews reside in Israel and about 42% reside in the United States and Canada, with most of the remainder living in Europe. The largest Jewish religious movements are Orthodox Judaism (Haredi Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism), Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism. A major source of difference between these groups is their approach to Jewish law. Orthodox Judaism maintains that the Torah and Jewish law are divine in origin, eternal and unalterable, and that they should be strictly followed. Conservative and Reform Judaism are more liberal, with Conservative Judaism generally promoting a more "traditional" interpretation of Judaism's requirements than Reform Judaism. A typical Reform position is that Jewish law should be viewed as a set of general guidelines rather than as a set of restrictions and obligations whose observance is required of all Jews. Historically, special courts enforced Jewish law; today, these courts still exist but the practice of Judaism is mostly voluntary. Authority on theological and legal matters is not vested in any one person or organization, but in the sacred texts and rabbis and scholars who interpret them.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Sorry if I were too harsh. I just came from another forum where all the posters got into an argumentative tangent, ruining a perfectly good thread. I did not want that to happen here so I may have been unforgiving.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 08:58:55 PM by Severian »

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Severian, I have a sincere question for you. Why are you asking? This is your thread, so if you don't feel like answering I'll understand.

Just out of curiosity.

Because I have been thinking... The OT Jews obviously worshiped the true God without having explicit knowledge of the Trinity (though I think the OT and extra-Biblical Jewish literature do hint at the idea of a Triune God), but now that our Lord and God Jesus Christ has come, and they know full well about the Trinity, and knowingly reject him, does that mean they worship a different Deity?

EDIT: For me the answer is 'yes.' Their rejection of our Lord Jesus as God the Messiah by necessity means that they reject the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Because He *is* the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob manifested in a complete human form.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 10:21:41 PM by Severian »

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I would say yes, however worshiping God and having a proper, New covenant relationship with Him through Jesus Christ are entirely different things. A LOT of people worship God, and a lot of people before coming to the Church worship God, after all, it is God who brings them to His Church in the first place. However, only in the Church is the depth of Salvation, which is entirely different from worship in my opinion. Worship doesn't imply Salvation, just as knowing a person doesn't imply friendship or commitment.

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Thanks for your answer, Severian. I wish I could help you out, but I am not God. I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not. I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though. I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is. They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is. We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself. How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Thanks for your answer, Severian. I wish I could help you out, but I am not God. I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not. I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though. I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is. They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is. We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself. How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.

Thank you for the contribution, Ionnis.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 10:46:20 PM by Severian »

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Thanks for your answer, Severian. I wish I could help you out, but I am not God. I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not. I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though. I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is. They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is. We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself. How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.

If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

All that I know is that if the unbelieving Jews will be cast into darkness, how much worse it will be for us, those of us who are Orthodox, those of us who do believe, and yet continue to live in sin.

But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. Luke 12:45-48 (ESV).

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Again, I think a more realistic approach would be to differentiate the concept of worship and salvation. In this way we can follow the more Orthodox approach of apophatic theology in focusing on what we know God not to be rather than pretending we know what God is. In this instance its sort of reversed, we know from the Church that Salvation is only found through a covenant, Orthodox relationship with the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit. However again, we can't assert that we know exactly anything about where or who God is to folks outside the Church, rather we can only speak of the Church. We don't know if God is with the Jews, we only know that Salvation is in the Church, but again, it must be some kind of relationship with God which brings outsiders into the Church in the first place correct? Does a relationship or worship of God necessarily imply Salvation? I would think not, see would be better off not even speculating on this matter which is in every respect beyond anything but estimations.

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.

Thanks for your answer, Severian. I wish I could help you out, but I am not God. I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not. I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though. I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is. They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is. We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself. How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.

If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Thanks for your answer, Severian. I wish I could help you out, but I am not God. I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not. I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though. I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is. They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is. We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself. How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.

If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god idol Achronos and Celticfan.

Fixed

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?. It really baffles me a lot.

Pointless question, but no offense whatsoever! Orthodoxy needs to preach Orthodoxy because it is the correct and highest worship and knowledge of God. This is what a jew needs to hear, not something that appeals to them on a sentimental level. Christ never said that OT jews were not worshiping God, yet He came to do something different, and He was God The Son, too. Jews and gentiles are now on the same level. It doesn't matter what you are but what you believe, and nowadays there are almost as many beliefs as there are people. You can even find non-jews who convert to judaism. Problem is jews need to pay a bit more attention to what God is doing through history. By throwing this "Christ figure" into human history, God really caused the jews a serious "problem" (but it's a solution). And it's no wonder that the antichrist will be a jew, that some of the jews are so proud that they are willing to overturn history just so they can get to be "God's chosen" again. To the rest of the jews, really, accept Christ, why really hold on to judaism if you truly believe in a loving God? Just so you can be better than other people?

P.S. So, it seems that based on ethnicity, basically, the jews pride themselves and through rejecting Christ they think they are better than others.

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.

According to what He told the Samaritan woman, yes.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.

According to what He told the Samaritan woman, yes.

Who's this Jesus guy think He is, telling this heretic things like that?

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 05:07:44 PM by Severian »

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"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.