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Topic: What Gives you Hope? (Read 3659 times)

Well, Hello. It's been a while since I've been on this but I feel like a philosophical discussion so I'll throw out some questions. First, I want to declare the position that I take: I'm a Bible believing protestant Christian.

What gives you hope? From my perspective atheism has a dismal tinge in that death is the ultimate consequence of every action. Your mother, father, children, friends, pets, and eventually you will all pass a way in what is a relatively short period of time. This to me sounds sad. When something catastrophic occurs in your life, where do you find peace and hope? I, as a Christian, can take solice in my belief that an all powerful being is well in control and that He's designed an eventual positive conclusion to the story that is my life.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

Well, Hello. It's been a while since I've been on this but I feel like a philosophical discussion so I'll throw out some questions. First, I want to declare the position that I take: I'm a Bible believing protestant Christian.

What gives you hope? From my perspective atheism has a dismal tinge in that death is the ultimate consequence of every action. Your mother, father, children, friends, pets, and eventually you will all pass a way in what is a relatively short period of time. This to me sounds sad. When something catastrophic occurs in your life, where do you find peace and hope? I, as a Christian, can take solice in my belief that an all powerful being is well in control and that He's designed an eventual positive conclusion to the story that is my life.

Dozo.

I don't think humans need hope unless something really bad is happening to them at the time. If you are relatively healthy, you get out of bed without thinking about it.

Humanity has survived OK prior to Christianity, without "hope". The Jews did not believe in afterlife, but did half believe that God was looking out for them. The Romans had a good life, fucking all and sundry, without any such gods to give them hope. Buddhism works OK without a god giving us order and afterlife. The Budhhist seeks a kind of death.

Your problem is that you and your kind have made a new poisonous bar for humanity to feel depressed and uncertain about. You bring hell, not hope.

First, I'd like to point out that Christianity incorporates the Jewish belief and is a result of it so the phrase "before Christianity" is something that stems from your philosophical outlook on life and differs from mine. I'd do not believe there was a time prior to Christianity.

However, that is not your ultimate point and I would address that. Perhaps, for non-religious people it becomes daily routine to avoid considering death for the express purpose of getting through life. I would say that Christianity, rather than bringing hell, brings heaven and hope and causes "you and your kind" to consider what is lacking from your beliefs.

Excuse the term, but it's just so you realize how terrified theists are.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

This deviates slightly from what I intended the topic to be, but I'll respond. First, I'd like to point out the countless martyrs for Christiandome who willingly died in hope of eternal life rather than mutter some words denying God's existence. However, I do not say that Christians aren't "scared shitless" of death but that Christianity provides means for a hope to see past death.

First, I'd like to point out the countless martyrs for Christiandome who willingly died in hope of eternal life rather than mutter some words denying God's existence.

Like who? And I don't mean those whose only choices were "Die in the name of your religion or just die", I mean those whose choices were "Die in the name of your religion or live".Also, everything after "rather than" sounds incredibly judgmental. I suggest you don't judge atheists without knowing them.

However, I do not say that Christians aren't "scared shitless" of death but that Christianity provides means for a hope to see past death.

If they had hope, they wouldn't be scared.Quod erat demonstrandum, I win.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

Clearly I've offended you in some manner from your bluntness.I find it rather incredible that you have not heard of the many people who were martyred based on their beliefs. It's historical, factual, even secular knowledge. Go look it up in a textbook.

Everything after "rather than" still pertains to Christians so I'm unsure what your on about.

I find it rather incredible that you have not heard of the many people who were martyred based on their beliefs.

People are killed all the time because of their beliefs or lack thereof; that is meaningless. What would be meaningful is someone dying for their beliefs willingly when also given the option of life.Obviously, even if they did, this wouldn't validate their beliefs, merely their claims that they believe.

Everything after "rather than" still pertains to Christians so I'm unsure what your on about.

It implies that atheists are just "angry at god" because it didn't do what they wanted. This is a very common claim by theists. And it is wrong.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

The Jewish belief is founded on the Old Testament which is the first half and essential component to the Christian faith so I would consider this a religion.

So you are then saying that you delude yourself by intionally neglecting to consider death?

I would call these terrible things Christianity brings by other names: perhaps, reason for morality, guidelines for healthy relationships, listening to a conscience that tells you when you have done wrong, fear of reprecussion for improper and lawless behaviour.

I agree, these cultures seem to at least be putting on the face of getting along ok without an afterlife and I do not understand how that could be. Perhaps, you are right and it is founded in delusions. I am trying to find out where hope is in these cultures.

The option for these martyrs were - renounce your religion and belief in God (the obvious implication being the offer of life) or die. These people chose to die. You are right this substantiates that people prefered death when accompanied with the hope of eternal life.

Perhaps you misunderstood the "rather than" section. The Christians chose death "rather than" saying some words that renounce their beliefs.

The option for these martyrs were - renounce your religion and belief in God (the obvious implication being the offer of life) or die. These people chose to die. You are right this substantiates that people prefered death when accompanied with the hope of eternal life.

My understanding was that these so-called "martyrs" could not choose life. They could only choose between death and claiming that they were dying for their god; they had already been "outed" as christians and nobody would believe otherwise, kinda like "witches". If you have evidence to the contrary, mind providing a link for it?

Perhaps you misunderstood the "rather than" section. The Christians chose death "rather than" saying some words that renounce their beliefs.

Apparently I did. My apologies.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

The Jewish belief is founded on the Old Testament which is the first half and essential component to the Christian faith so I would consider this a religion.

It's a primitive religion that was based around fear and sacrificing your firstborn, or redemption through goats. God was supposed to give you a long life, but never did. The Levites made it up to extract tithes. Seeing as how many modern clergy are atheists, it's more than likely that the people who made up Judaism also were just atheists feathering their nests, and making up laws. It's delusional to think that old Judaism was really anything other than a protection racket.

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I agree, these cultures seem to at least be putting on the face of getting along ok without an afterlife and I do not understand how that could be.

While on meth, people can conceive of no other reality. Atheists in this culture suffer a double whammy of having no afterlife, and having to brave theist threats. We have to be totally sure. So, yes, if you became an atheist, you would have to suffer the doubt of whether you will burn in hell, while being lectured and lied to by sanctimonious liars. It's harder to be atheist in this culture, than being born into a culture which knows no doubt, and only lives for the day.

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I am trying to find out where hope is in these cultures.

As above. Perhaps the lack of threats makes up for it.

BTW, how certain are you that you will not burn in hell? How much delusion do you need, to believe that you have the Christian message correct?

The facts that I'm telling you are from several history courses I have taken and a link to these would be unuseful to you. As it is late for me and I'm quite tired, I'm not in the mood to search the web for the appropriate link at the moment. In fact, I will likely head to bed. However, I do not believe it would be too difficult to find and if you have not found it yourself by tomorrow, I will try to come on and post it for you then.

As it is late for me and I'm quite tired, I'm not in the mood to search the web for the appropriate link at the moment. In fact, I will likely head to bed. However, I do not believe it would be too difficult to find and if you have not found it yourself by tomorrow, I will try to come on and post it for you then.

Once again, I must apologize. My day has already been scheduled (more or less), so I will not be searching for any links.

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The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?We choose our own gods.

This is my last post, I need to go to bed but I couldn't help responding.

You have really managed to condense 39 books into a vast oversimplification while also drawing out the single instance of first born sacrifice which was actually prevented by God. God in fact did provide long life for many people as is recorded in the Bible - two examples are of course Noah and Methuselah along with most pre-flood era people.

Yes, the Levites did gather tithes that most people provided willingly, which was to be used to bring aid to people less fortunate and in more dire circumstances. This, I think is quite a wonderful concept.

Calling a clergyman an atheist sounds rather oxymoronic to me. It is possible that many Judaist clergymen nowadays have renounced their beliefs and become atheists. I have not looked into this. However, this can have no bearing on the Judaic culture over 2000 years ago.

I would not dispute you on how difficult the life of an atheist is. I am not one, and all the atheists I know do not seem overtly troubled by theist threats and such things. But, you may well be. And, if you are, my person belief is that it could be a result of you juxtaposing your philosophy on life beside the Christian hope of eternal life which is, in a roundabout way, what I am attempting to find out.

As for the last statement, I am entirely convinced as to my "not burning in hell." This is for reasons though that differ from the delusions of culture and does not pertain to the discussion so I will not get into them.

From my perspective atheism has a dismal tinge in that death is the ultimate consequence of every action. Your mother, father, children, friends, pets, and eventually you will all pass a way in what is a relatively short period of time. This to me sounds sad.

Maybe it does. However, that does not mean it is untrue. I think it's sad that children are born with harlequin ichthyosis, too, but it still happens.

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When something catastrophic occurs in your life, where do you find peace and hope?

Probably the same place you do, although you would say otherwise: friends, family, community.

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I, as a Christian, can take solice in my belief that an all powerful being is well in control and that He's designed an eventual positive conclusion to the story that is my life.

More power to you. Personally, though, when I'm addressing the world around me, I prefer to accept and confront unpleasant truths than withdraw into comforting fictions.

"We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create." --Bertrand Russell

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

...What gives you hope? From my perspective atheism has a dismal tinge in that death is the ultimate consequence of every action. Your mother, father, children, friends, pets, and eventually you will all pass a way in what is a relatively short period of time. This to me sounds sad. When something catastrophic occurs in your life, where do you find peace and hope? I, as a Christian, can take solice in my belief that an all powerful being is well in control and that He's designed an eventual positive conclusion to the story that is my life.

Dozo.

I've never believed in god and I'm in my 50s. My friends and family will tell you that I tend toward optimism, and have for most (if not all) of my life. Hope? I'm not sure that hope is the issue for me. I know I'll live a life, I'll die, so will my friends and family. But that's beside the point. The point is now, right this very moment. There are philosophers (and spiritual practices) that tell us that all we have is this moment. And in some ways I feel that way. I expect that I'll still be breathing an hour from now, a year from now, a decade from now. But all I absolutely know for certain is that I'm alive right this moment. And so I try to take joy in life, learn things, be compassionate toward my fellow humans, and live my life as best I can. In this moment, and the next, and the next. And some day I'll run out of moments. So what? After I'm dead I won't know anything (If I'm right about death), so why worry about it? I've had multiple surgeries requiring anesthesia. That's what I expect death to be like. The lights are out and nobody is home. Nothing to be afraid of there.

Back to hope. When I was fighting breast cancer, I had hope that I'd get better. I had hope that I'd see my friends and family again. I had hope that tomorrow maybe I wouldn't feel so nauseated from chemo, or that my hair would grow back, or that I'd feel strong enough to paint again. I'm an artist. I hope that today I'll paint something beautiful. Or that my work will inspire someone, or touch their hearts, or help them through their own tough spots. I hope that my family will stay healthy and happy, that I'll see my good friends often, and that I'll learn something new today. I hope that my horizons will continue to expand, that my feet won't hurt too much to go for a hike, that the eagles will be out when I go to the shore. I hope that my little dog's tummy ache will go away, that my physical therapy will go well today, and that it doesn't snow when my brother's family drives down to visit for the holidays.

A few more thoughts, because I'm not sure I actually answered the question of what gives me hope, I just demonstrated that I have hope. I guess what gives me hope is experience. The sun has always risen in the morning. Illness has always passed. My dog's tummy has always gotten better. My hair grew back after chemo. Since cancer, I've had to climb an uphill battle for optimism and hope, because I have complications from my surgery that will be lifelong. But I see, both from my own experiences, and from examples of other people, that we can cope with our problems, whether physical or emotional. I look to other people's experiences if I haven't got any of my own, and I look for people who have overcome, or learned to deal with their problems. I then have hope that I can do whatever it is that they did.

This is interesting for me to think about, because I don't know that I've ever asked myself this question before. And I don't tend to look at life in terms of hope. I tend to look at it in terms of more present moment concepts like joy, beauty, love, compassion. Hope is about the future. I'm trying to enjoy my "now."

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If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

From my perspective atheism has a dismal tinge in that death is the ultimate consequence of every action.

I think you're getting us confused with Catholics.

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Your mother, father, children, friends, pets, and eventually you will all pass a way in what is a relatively short period of time.

Actually, based on my family history, and the fact that I used to be a drug addict, and alcoholic, and that I've been a nicotine user for 26 years of my life; I believe, based on such data, that I will live to be in my early to mid 70's, if I'm lucky. Nor, do I think about death at a constant as it seems you think I do, and I have never known a fellow non-believer or non-religious person to think in such things, as well. Actually, I hear religious people, especially Christians (protestants as well) talk about death all the time, that they can't wait to die and go up to heaven and be with their precious Jesus and Biblegod. So, could you stop speaking abou things that you either read in some biased book, or heard in a biased church, or what not. It really is getting quite silly at this point.

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When something catastrophic occurs in your life, where do you find peace and hope?

Friends and family are a factor but also my own will-power and strength to carry on. I do not need a crutch (i.e. deity/god) to give me such things. If you do, that's fine. Go with it.

Hope is derived in the future. I hope that my children are successful, I hope I live an exciting life followed by a quiet end. I have accepted death and thus don't need an antique book to instill hope for something after life for me. My hope boils down to meaning. I want my life to have meaning. I don't need a building named after me, but wouldn't argue against it, but my hope comes from my quest for meaning and feeling that what I did here mattered.

Well, Hello. It's been a while since I've been on this but I feel like a philosophical discussion so I'll throw out some questions. First, I want to declare the position that I take: I'm a Bible believing protestant Christian.What gives you hope? From my perspective atheism has a dismal tinge in that death is the ultimate consequence of every action. Your mother, father, children, friends, pets, and eventually you will all pass a way in what is a relatively short period of time. This to me sounds sad. When something catastrophic occurs in your life, where do you find peace and hope? I, as a Christian, can take solice in my belief that an all powerful being is well in control and that He's designed an eventual positive conclusion to the story that is my life.Dozo.

I’m sure that from your perspective anything that doesn’t agree with you has a “dismal tinge”. This is the usual nihilist nonsense that Christians try to foist on atheists. It shows their ignorance of those people they speak of and, to me, it shows how desperate you are to find some reason to keep beleiveing. Make up strawman and declare how great your religion is against them. I do feel sorry for you when you are shown that you don’t even have that.

Yep, everything dies, universe too it seems. So? That’s how life works. Yep, I miss those I can’t be with anymore. Again, so? I know that my life means something now and I don’t have to bow and scrape before a lunatic god to get something supposedly “better”. You say you take solace in your believe that something is in control. Does this mean you are okay with all of the wars, starvation, rape, etc, since your god causes it all being in “control”? It’s sad that so many people have to die for this magic “plan” of your god that you’ve convinced yourself can only have a “good” ending. What kind of a god needs starvation, murder, abuse, to make its final thing be “good”? I’d say incompetent one or a malign one. It’s the old claim of the ends justify the means, as long as your arrogance says that you will get those good means. You seem to be happy to sit back and go “tsk tsk, those poor people. oh well, must be for my benefit!”. I find that quite sadistic and sick.

I will say that using evil is pretty much consistent with your bible. We have god being in cahoots with satan constantly.

make baseless claims, be shown wrong and then pull the usual disappearing act like so many theists have before. I wonder if he though that if he prayed enough, all of the people on WWGHA would magically decide that he was right.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 01:49:46 PM by velkyn »

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB