I recently stumbled upon information on Ketogenic diets, they are used to treat epilepsy and also as clean-bulk diets for body builders.

The basis for the diet is you eat a lot of meats and fat and virtually nothing that contains carbs and sugars, in a few weeks your body learns to metabolize fat as an energy source instead of sugars.

Currently this sounds very promising for me as my food intolerances basically limit me to eating white meats and dairy products as I am gluten intolerant, can't tolerate most fruits and vegetables or oils, legumes etc.

The only real issue left is that carbs and sugars make it much easier for me to make my daily calorie quota (I'd like to reasonably be as close to 2k as possible) and without them I'd have to eat a lot more meats and fats to make up for it.

this isn't really the right place to ask,
-maybe check out a bodybuilders forum or a weight loss forum.

there are some risks involved, mainly if you do it wrong so

you can just cut carbs severely but keep them above 30grams a day and it won't technically be ketogenic but you will still have weight loss (and bad breath) and become adapted to burning fat and not experiencing the four hourly sugar lows that are associated with high carb diets.

as far as safety, yes it is safe IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!Ketogenic enteral nutrition as a treatment for obesity: short term and long term results from 19,000 patients
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/9/1/96/abstract"
"Conclusion
Ketogenic Enteral Nutrition treatment of over 19,000 patients induced a rapid 10% weight loss, 57% of which was Fat Mass. No significant adverse effects were found. The treatment is safe, fast, inexpensive and has good one-year results for weight maintenance."

If you eat sweet potato and (if tolerated) potatoes and other tubers you will get heaps of carbs

For crohn's i'd recommend Paleo, which is usually low carb but doesn't have to be, and you can mix it up to be ketogenic if you want to or high carb if that's what you need

__________________'Liberation can only be gained by practice, never by discussion'
SN Goenka

Thanks for the input.
Whenever I ask about things on bodybuilding.com forum and mention crohns they tell me to find a crohns forum or ask my doctor, who would refer me to the nutritionist whom I stopped seeing because his only advice was to eat foods I can't tolerate and get some expensive GI studies done that always leave me incredibly ill afterwards, since I'm doing fine on my own I'd rather leave that can of worms unopened.

I guess I'll further investigate proper ketogenic nutrition and risks before deciding to go further.

I'm interested in why you want to go ketogenic?
I haven't heard of anyone recommending it for crohn's (it would probably be good if you can tolerate meat and fat well) but it is probably WAY more restrictive than you need.

My diet is meat and fat and vegetables (lots of vegetable juice)
Stay away from grains, sugar, vegetable oil, and processed foods for a start

Start with Paleo/SCD/GAPS and mix in a bit of FODMAPS,
I'm a firm believer in starting at the beginning and with Crohn's it's leaky gut and intestinal bacteria.

If you go paleo then you are halfway to a ketogenic diet and can keep moving that way if you wish but it may not be necessary.

I can't eat most vegetables or juices to begin with.
When I say most, I mean everything thus far except bananas that I've tried is off-limits, and bananas are digested very slowly, motility issues or something.

Some fruit juices I can tolerate, but I can't say specifically, I have Nopalea, it's an overpriced gimmick fruit juice that's supposed to help inflammatory conditions, and I can tolerate it.

I don't know what you can handle so I don't know what you should do BUT if you are thinking ketogenic the think of Paleo as an introduction to ketogenic, and do more homework

I'd say your sugar/carb intake is high (compared to mine)
I eat carbs most evenings in the form of sweet potato, and what I get from veggies during the day (carrots mainly)

My suggestions......

Food intolerances can be a result of leaky gut, molecules that would normally be excluded are allowed through the intestinal lining, so it may change and more foods will be tolerated as healing happens,
Gluten is your worst enemy so avoid anything with it in.
Vegetable (seed) oils are bad for you, use animal fats or coconut oil for cooking and good olive oil for salads
If the turkey burgers are processed you want to check the ingredients (and on everything else)
Use honey if you need sweetener but use less
avoid SOY

I'd still say that you want to work on gut bacteria and intestinal permeability,
-eat all the veggies you can tolerate,
-leave ALL the grains out, dump the processed meats, the ice cream and frozen yogurt (hard cheese is ok – no lactose)
-Make your own SCD yogurt (I had problems with this but many tolerate it)
-buy a juicer (or go to a juice bar a few times to try it out) and have a few VEGETABLE juices (carrot and spinach with a touch of ginger?). Not fruit juice -high in fructose.

ONCE AGAIN _ PALEO is the first step to Ketogenic, so start there and stop eating all that processed shit,

crashes could be blood sugar but might not be, don't make assumptions.
Do they improve after carbs?

The turkey burgers have pretty limited ingredients, they're the most pure ones I could find and the only ones that don't make me sick, most have 'all natural seasoning' which always makes me ill.

I get that about coffee all the time, I've given it up in the past with no beneficial effect and I recovered from an ulcer while still on it so I don't really think it's an issue with me but I could be wrong. I mostly just keep at it because it's the only way I get enough fluids in. Contrary to popular belief you don't really dehydrate from coffee unless you drink very little and no other fluids, it will generally replace what it causes you to shed.

Keto isn't for bulking? I mean you're going to be on 30g carbs max if you want to hit ketosis, so how are you going to get any calories?

I mean I know it's used for cutting, since ketosis is using fat for energy instead of carbs, but how are you bulking on it? Be careful of what you read on sites like those since a lot of the users are juicing and unless you do that yourself your results are going to be different.

Anyway to list any of the risks, low bodyfat isn't the best thing to have when you get ill. I think you should definitely have a real read about the risks and effects of ketosis before you decide to go on this diet. Think about the water you'll be losing if you do get ill too. Granted I've seen crazier ways to lose weight, but the fact you'll need to drink more water while in ketosis and the fact if you get unwell you could lose loads of water I definitely would not recommend it.

"low bodyfat isn't the best thing to have when you get ill."
I agree with Price,
unless you're overweight or want to get ripped there is NO POINT,
even if you are overweight or wanting to get ripped you would be better off doing it in a slower way (low carb for example)
eat healthy paleo carbs

Keto isn't for bulking? I mean you're going to be on 30g carbs max if you want to hit ketosis, so how are you going to get any calories?

I mean I know it's used for cutting, since ketosis is using fat for energy instead of carbs, but how are you bulking on it? Be careful of what you read on sites like those since a lot of the users are juicing and unless you do that yourself your results are going to be different.

Anyway to list any of the risks, low bodyfat isn't the best thing to have when you get ill. I think you should definitely have a real read about the risks and effects of ketosis before you decide to go on this diet. Think about the water you'll be losing if you do get ill too. Granted I've seen crazier ways to lose weight, but the fact you'll need to drink more water while in ketosis and the fact if you get unwell you could lose loads of water I definitely would not recommend it.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=132598293
Though I don't deny there are a lot of steroid users I think the nutrition forum here is probably not going to contain many as a lot of the users are fairly health conscious and well informed about general wellness.

The other fact is most of my calories already come from fat and proteins, when I found the diet the most intriguing thing to me is it's so close to what I'm already limited to eating it doesn't seem like much of a leap.

The other fact is most of my calories already come from fat and proteins, when I found the diet the most intriguing thing to me is it's so close to what I'm already limited to eating it doesn't seem like much of a leap.

I hear what you are saying "it's so close to what I'm already limited to eating",
but cutting out veg that you tolerate doesn't make sense.

Most of the benefits of Ketogenic diets are from the no grain/no sugar side of it (to quote from his first paragraph - " that keto (or at least a diet low in grains/sugars and high in fats) is a very healthy diet with numerous benefits"

From an evolutionary standpoint we have been eating vegetables (and insects probably) forever and larger amounts of meat for 250,000,000 years.
Grains 10,000,
sugar not so long,
HFCS pretty recent,
canola oil - same
ice cream? well - not long at all

Not all ketogenic foods are paleo too,
seed oils are inflammatory and not paleo for example

I'm not saying ketogenic isbad, i'm just saying that it is more restrictive than you need and if it were me i'd be keto with veg juice (which is close to what i am eating)

I agree with Hugh in many of his points. I would definitely begin with SCD or Paleo first, being very careful with the fruit and veggies. We have used the SCD but with a slow introduction of foods and it is really helping us to find our son's trigger foods.

Also, when you say juice do you mean commercially bottled juice? Have you tried fresh juice ~ I think that fresh juice, made from your own juicer is the best way to get vitamins and minerals without having the fiber, which can cause so many troubles.

If I were you, I would cut all grains and dairy. Limit yourself to white meat if that is what you can tolerate. Add in the fruits and veggies you can tolerate and slowly add in (one at a time with a few days in between) other veggies and fruits to see how you react. What about smooth nut butters? Eggs? And definitely try fresh juice ~ completely different than commercial juices.

Ketogenic diets? Is that what they're calling the Atkins diet these days? You know, that's from like the 70s, lol!

Risks? You mean like from cholesterol, high blood pressure, constipation and potential intestinal damage from lack of sufficient fiber, along with the potential for liver damage stemming from the build up of toxic levels of ammonium as a byproduct of your body having to convert proteins to whatever sugar it is required for energy? Let's not forget really bad breath.

With the exception of really bad breath though, the rest of those potential risks are highly debatable.

Not quite, they explain that it's not the same as atkins but I don't know enough about atkins to say how they differ.

Overall it looks like the benefits aren't strong enough to make it worth it for me.

Don't give up yet,
You are on the right track.

Aitkins is similar to Ketogenic but PALEO is where you want to start
(Not low fat paleo though)

With a ketogenic diet you can eat things that may not be beneficial (peanuts, cream, artificial sweeteners etc)
With a paleolithic diet you avoid many potentially harmful foods and you eat a reduced amount of carbs because many high carb foods (sugar,grain etc) are excluded
-
It has worked for many different conditions and the benefits can be HUGE

Start by reading this.....http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...diet-solution/"Lectins such as WGA bind to a receptor in the microvilli, allowing WGA to be transported into the body. This is the mechanism of the autoimmune cascade I described above. If the gut wall (microvilli) becomes damaged, the entire contents of the intestines can now make its way into your system. Yes, that’s as bad as it sounds. You are not only in a position to create antibodies against WGA, which leads to autoimmunity, but you now have the potential to develop multiple allergies due to a permeable gut lining and inadequately digested food. This is how you can develop allergies to chicken, beef, apples, or other normally benign foods.

Additionally, if your gut is damaged, you expose yourself to a host of chemicals that would normally remain in the intestines. This can lead to conditions such as multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome, which is regarded more as a psychiatric problem than legitimate medical condition.

Let me be crystal clear about this: Anything that damages the gut lining (including bacterial, viral, and parasitic infections, as well as alcohol, grains, legumes, and dairy) can predispose one to autoimmunity, multiple chemical sensitivities, and allergies to otherwise benign foods. "

Thanks for the information, I'd really like to try it but I'm not sure I can tolerate any of the fruits and vegetables given by their diet.

Last I checked I BELIEVE green beans are okay, lettuce is, the purple cabbage they put in standard salad mixes is but the carrots (often shaved) included may not be. If they were whole it would be easy to pick them out but shaved is not realistic.

I can tolerate cranberry sauce but get gassy and pass soft (but not loose) BMs afterwards, should this be avoided due to side effects? Also I can't be 100% on how natural it is, but it comes in a can, so probably not.

I see it recommends almonds. I know I cannot tolerate peanuts or peanut butter are almonds chemically different?

Apple does terrible things to me.

I don't know about tomato I can't remember the last time I had it.

So it comes down to that maybe I could get myself to tolerate these things on a Paleo diet, but how can I, in the mean time, fill the need for sugars when I can't?

Thanks for the information, I'd really like to try it but I'm not sure I can tolerate any of the fruits and vegetables given by their diet.

Last I checked I BELIEVE green beans are okay, lettuce is, the purple cabbage they put in standard salad mixes is but the carrots (often shaved) included may not be. If they were whole it would be easy to pick them out but shaved is not realistic.

I can tolerate cranberry sauce but get gassy and pass soft (but not loose) BMs afterwards, should this be avoided due to side effects? Also I can't be 100% on how natural it is, but it comes in a can, so probably not.

I see it recommends almonds. I know I cannot tolerate peanuts or peanut butter are almonds chemically different?

Apple does terrible things to me.

I don't know about tomato I can't remember the last time I had it.

So it comes down to that maybe I could get myself to tolerate these things on a Paleo diet, but how can I, in the mean time, fill the need for sugars when I can't?

There is an introduction diet for SCD,
Get yourself the book (Breaking the vicious cycle) or search the web http://pecanbread.com/f/how/introdiet.html
the idea is that you go on a very restricted diet for a while and as healing occurs you can add more foods to your diet

peanuts are not nuts, they are legumes, but be wary of nuts until you are on the mend (after the intro diet)

as for your last question " but how can I, in the mean time, fill the need for sugars"........
Seriously dude? you were all gungho for a ketogenic diet, now you don't know if you can do a way milder diet?

Firstly, honey is SCD legal (but use sparingly), secondly, FAT is good for you

GET THE BOOK OR DO SOME SERIOUS RESEARCH ONLINE

I found SCD helpful but it led me to paleo which is working well for me.
The thing about SCD that kept me from improving was the yogurt (not shop bought - homemade to the instruction!!!!!!!!) but you say you are OK with dairy

Ketogenic is an all-or-nothing diet. If I'm on it I don't need to worry about sugars because I'm not supposed to have them because if you start them too soon your body won't convert to ketosis, you need the full 10-30 days to change your metabolism, then you can have sugars in small amounts on a given day to restore your glycogen but too much and you'll go back to glycolisis.

If I'm not on a ketogenic diet however, and on SCD or paleo instead, I do need sugars since my body isn't using fats as energy, but can't get them through grains or processed foods, which are some of the only sugars I can tolerate.

I suppose I could do honey.

It's easy enough for me to not have sugars at all, but to have to find safe sugars is quite difficult. I guess I also need to look into what kind of quantity I need.

Not really an issue, paleo can be ketogenic or not, as you wish, so I guess you will go into partial ketosis or slip in or out of ketosis depending on how many carbs you take. Wether you are in ketosis doesn not matter for your intestines,

You will burn fat and carbs , might be an adjustment period (low-carb flu)

Not a isue as you are not trying for ketosis, but are going low carb so you o not need to replace the sugars with other sugars.
You ddo want to balance the diet for nutrition so fresh vegetable juice would add vitamins, enymes, and carbs
(sorry,this is from my phone)

It's easy enough for me to not have sugars at all, but to have to find safe sugars is quite difficult. I guess I also need to look into what kind of quantity I need.

I have the same problem. Right now I'm trying to combine Autoimmune paleo diet restrictions with ketogenic diet. It's been good for Crohn's; but I'm losing weight. I'm in a Mediterranean country and coconut oil isn't available for eating here (too expensive), so I use extra virgin olive oil instead.

My questions:
1) InstantCoffee, did you follow ketogenic diet? Some info on your diet would be appreciated.
2) How to prevent weight loss on keto diet?

Ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial for some people with Neurological problems, not gut issues.

There is little benefit and a possible huge downside. All the mucosal lining of your gut is made from and fed on glucose (and glucogenic amino acids). You can severely increase gut problems by not feeding the mucosal layer (Leaky gut, anyone?)

Ketogenic is NOT where you want to be, maybe occasionally slipping in and out of ketosis as your carb intake is low, but NOT in a continual ketogenic state

Auto Immune paleo on its own is sensible, trying to be keto at the same time is stupid,
Eat 75g of carbs a day (sweet potato, yam etc) and let the Paleo A/I diet work.

You're right, I was doing wrong. I'm going back to low (not too low) carb AIP for two reasons:
1. For the effects of keto on mucus layer, as you mentioned (thanks).
2. It's impossible not to lose weight on keto diet and losing weight is one of the last things I want to experience.

Well, unfortunately of all the carb sources (mono-di-polysaccharides...) there are only two carb source I can eat without any gut/heart/neuro problems. These are cauliflowers and carrots.
Well well, this is at least better than nothing, and I'm used to eating the same things every meal.
************************************************** ************************************
EDIT:
On second thoughts, I decided I'll retry eating bananas. If the problem with fruits are caused by fructose for me, then bananas should be the least harmful of all, since their fructose:glucose ratio is the lowest (as far as I know). Moreover, because of their texture (and carb ratio) I guess, they don't increase intestinal peristalsis like the other fruits. I tend to eat 2 big meals in a day: roasted lamb, a lot of extra virgin olive oil [to keep me full] and from now on, I will add half kilograms of bananas in a meal -- How about that? In regards to carbs, this means 100 grams of carbs X 2 every day. I think this would be very balanced now.

Ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial for some people with Neurological problems, not gut issues.

There is little benefit and a possible huge downside. All the mucosal lining of your gut is made from and fed on glucose (and glucogenic amino acids). You can severely increase gut problems by not feeding the mucosal layer (Leaky gut, anyone?)

Ketogenic is NOT where you want to be, maybe occasionally slipping in and out of ketosis as your carb intake is low, but NOT in a continual ketogenic state

Auto Immune paleo on its own is sensible, trying to be keto at the same time is stupid,
Eat 75g of carbs a day (sweet potato, yam etc) and let the Paleo A/I diet work.

IIRC the bacteroidetes bacteria in the gut can create butyric acid without external carbohydrates to restore the intestinal mucosa. There's a post about it somewhere in my logs, refers more to fasting but it works under the same premise.

You're right, I was doing wrong. I'm going back to low (not too low) carb AIP for two reasons:
1. For the effects of keto on mucus layer, as you mentioned (thanks).
2. It's impossible not to lose weight on keto diet and losing weight is one of the last things I want to experience.

Well, unfortunately of all the carb sources (mono-di-polysaccharides...) there are only two carb source I can eat without any gut/heart/neuro problems. These are cauliflowers and carrots.
Well well, this is at least better than nothing, and I'm used to eating the same things every meal.
************************************************** ************************************
EDIT:
On second thoughts, I decided I'll retry eating bananas. If the problem with fruits are caused by fructose for me, then bananas should be the least harmful of all, since their fructose:glucose ratio is the lowest (as far as I know). Moreover, because of their texture (and carb ratio) I guess, they don't increase intestinal peristalsis like the other fruits. I tend to eat 2 big meals in a day: roasted lamb, a lot of extra virgin olive oil [to keep me full] and from now on, I will add half kilograms of bananas in a meal -- How about that? In regards to carbs, this means 100 grams of carbs X 2 every day. I think this would be very balanced now.

You might want to read up on FODMAPS,[1]
There are probably other Carbs that you can tolerate, you just haven't found them.....
I'm a great believer in short term carb restriction to bring bad bugs under control, just not extreme (keto) and not long term.
Don't know you or your health so any advice should be treated with healthy scepticism. If banana ok then how bout plantain? Yams? Sweet potato?

Listen to this Podcast, might be useful
[1]Dr. Siebecker Explains the Art and Science of the FODMAP Diet (Podcast 45)
http://scdlifestyle.com/2012/09/dr-siebecker-explains-the-art-and-science-of-the-fodmap-diet-podcast-45/

9 months ago I had a resection surgery. The surgeon resected some parts of the colon and I have been living with a colostomy stoma since then. The surgeon did not resect my rectum in order to attach my rectum and the remaining part of my colon (anastomosis) in a few months. Well, my rectum has always been in a very bad shape, and because it still is in a very bad shape, my doctors, surgeons said they'll leave the rectum and not attach it to my remaining colon; because it would make me symptomatic again, meaning it would aggravate Crohn's.

Apart from my rectum, the other parts of my digestive organs (from stomach to small intestine and the remaining part of my colon...) are in a very good shape. I don't have any pain, there are no significant inflammation in these parts. So since my surgery I've been very healthy; gaining weight, no pain, I have energy, no diarrhea, no blood in the stool in my colostomy bag etc...

But as I said, my rectum has always been in a very bad shape and I still have rectal bleeding going on.

Now comes the problem: If I eat fruits (any kind, doesn't matter) my rectal bleeding would increase rapidly and massively.

I don't know if I'm explaining my situation articulately here. What I eat doesn't pass to my rectum because my surgeon closed my rectum. My rectum is not in contact with anything I eat. So, here is the question: Why does what I eat affect my rectum so intensely that it causes severely increased rectal bleeding? Does the general theory of "carbs increase intestinal bacteria by feeding them" apply here? How?

As I said, fruits aggravate this reaction in my rectum. If I don't eat fruits, my rectal bleeding is much much better, it's incredible.

If we take "carbs increase intestinal (in this case rectal) bacteria and this, in turn increases immune response" to be true, then what explanation can we give on this specific situation of mine?

My hypothesis: I eat fruits, large amounts of sugar is absorbed quickly, the sugar in my blood gets transported to my rectum via blood vessels, and capillary vessels, and after that, the sugar in the rectal tissue causes increased bacterial burden, this leads to increased transmural and mucosal inflammation and finally, as a result of this I get the rectal bleeding.

I don't know, it is hard to know. This is all speculation.
*************************************************

I ate bananas today, and yes... It made my rectal bleeding much much worse. It's unbelievable.

You asked "how bout plantain? Yams? Sweet potato?" They all make me sick. They cause bloating and cause me to vomit.
The Wiki article says that: "The banana is an edible fruit, botanically a berry" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana

So I guess bananas are of different kind, and even bananas make me worse.
*************************************************

Apart from that, I can't eat fermented foods, I can't eat any nightshade family foods... These trigger a flare. I've tried very different veggies and foods in very different times with no success.

I can't eat eggs and nuts too. Well, since I can't eat a lot of things, maybe I should list what can I eat instead.

You're right, I was doing wrong. I'm going back to low (not too low) carb AIP for two reasons:
1. For the effects of keto on mucus layer, as you mentioned (thanks).
2. It's impossible not to lose weight on keto diet and losing weight is one of the last things I want to experience.

Well, unfortunately of all the carb sources (mono-di-polysaccharides...) there are only two carb source I can eat without any gut/heart/neuro problems. These are cauliflowers and carrots.
Well well, this is at least better than nothing, and I'm used to eating the same things every meal.
************************************************** ************************************
EDIT:
On second thoughts, I decided I'll retry eating bananas. If the problem with fruits are caused by fructose for me, then bananas should be the least harmful of all, since their fructose:glucose ratio is the lowest (as far as I know). Moreover, because of their texture (and carb ratio) I guess, they don't increase intestinal peristalsis like the other fruits. I tend to eat 2 big meals in a day: roasted lamb, a lot of extra virgin olive oil [to keep me full] and from now on, I will add half kilograms of bananas in a meal -- How about that? In regards to carbs, this means 100 grams of carbs X 2 every day. I think this would be very balanced now.