Wednesday, October 26

Sylvia

Forty years on.

The word looks odd there, impossible, trivial. Too large. Nearly as long ago as my dad was old then, forty-five to an eleven year old kid looks like an archeological dig. Forty years from then was the Roaring Twenties, the Jazz Age, Paris between the Wars, Buster Keaton and biplanes. And too short just the same; forty years now is like blowing apart a dandelion. Does forty years ago look to my neighbor's twelve-year-old daughter like it looked to me then, a silly ghost world that adults for some reason think of as real?

Wednesday, October 27, 1965.

I was in the sixth grade. A couple of months from turning twelve. A hormonal internee, trying to learn the new language the girls had started speaking the previous year. I had a red Gibson Melody Maker with black pickups that would shortly slip off the strap and break its neck. Gibson replaced it a couple months later with a red SG, a better guitar; I learned only recently that the Melody Maker had a bad neck design--for forty years I thought it was my fault. I played rock and roll with a guy from the white trash part of town, across the street from Stand J at the track. I took lessons, but they were jazz-oriented and boring. I played the grooves off of Beatles 65 and Bringing It All Back Home. I'd heard "Subterranean Homesick Blues" on my transistor radio that spring and bought the album. Highway 61 I got about the time school started. I was the only Dylan fanatic in grade 6. My buddy and I played "Tombstone Blues" and "Maggie's Farm" along with "Louie Louie" and "Walk Don't Run".

After a year of fighting my parents were separated. My dad lived in an apartment a half-mile up the street. We saw him on Sundays. The divorce would be final before school was out.

My dad ate shredded wheat for breakfast every morning, and he'd read the entire paper, holding it in this weird stainless steel contraption he still has. He started me in reading the comics, what he called "The Funnies", when I was in kindergarten, listening while I spelled out words I didn't know. By fourth grade I was reading the whole thing myself every morning. By sixth grade he wasn't there anymore, and neither was that contraption, and my sister wasn't talking to anybody. I read on in a silence like the silence that follows a car wreck.

It was the blackest headline I ever saw. They'd used blacker ink, somehow, blacker than the day Kennedy was killed.

October 27, 1965. Wednesday.

A 16-year-old girl named Sylvia Marie Likens had been found dead in a house on the east side of town. Over a period of three months she'd been starved, beaten, burned with cigarettes, scalded in a tub of hot water. The words "I Am A Prostitute And Proud Of It!" were carved on her abdomen. Above that a numeral '3' was branded onto her chest because her tormentors had reversed the C-shaped hook heated on the gas stove while attempting to make an 'S'. She'd been thrown, finally, into the basement to live, and finally, die, with the dogs.

It wasn't the work of a madman. It was the work of a family. And their neighborhood.

The cause of death, a subdural hematoma and traumatic shock, is almost beside the point. The young medical examiner who performed the autopsy testified:

...over the forehead there were multiple abrasions and yellow brown discolorations of the face...each lesion would range from a day or so [old] up to one or two weeks...Both eyes demonstrated ecchymosis, essentially what is known as a black eye, and edema surrounding the eyelids....multiple scratches over the entire face...a large area of scraping over the left cheek and down to the jaw.....the lips were markedly torn and essentially in shreds...Over the neck there were more areas of loss of superficial skin....this was either done with a sharp or a hot object....[The many small burns] did not appear to have been caused with hot water because water would have burned the surrounding area....Over the right shoulder there is an area with linear shape where again there is loss of superficial skin....along the border of the collar bone are two more areas where there is a patchy loss of superficial skin. Over the left shoulder there is another area, from the top of the shoulder extending down the anterior aspect of the arm. Going to the chest, over the right breast are more areas of loss of skin. The nipple itself is not involved....A similar pattern on the left also did not involve the nipple itself. Present in the midline of the abdomen, between it...essentially the level of the umbilicus...between it and the sternum...was [a numeral] three....Present over the abdomen...were the words "I am a prostitute and proud of it" with an exclamation point. *

There is similar damage up and down her arms and legs. The cigarette burns number about one hundred and fifty. Her nails are all broken, backwards, probably self-inflicted from scratching the basement floor in her agony, self-inflicted like those chewed-through lips. Her liver and body weight indicate malnutrition. There is edema and a severe hematoma of the external genitalia, but no evidence of vaginal laceration. She died a virgin.

Sylvia and her younger sister Jenny, a small, frail polio victim, had been living in that house under the charge of a woman named Gertrude Baniszewski while their parents toured the country with a carnival that season. They were beaten--"paddled"--at the end of the first week when the $20 for their care did not arrive. It came the following Monday.

Gertie, as the neighbors knew her, was thirty-seven. She had seven children living with her and not enough beds for them. She'd had six miscarriages. The house had a total of three spoons. What income there was came from child support payments (sporatic, not surprisingly) and taking in laundry and babysitting. Lester Likens consigned his daughters to her care after knowing her for twenty-four hours.

No one knows why the beatings escalated. The first few weeks were reasonably normal. Sylvia and Jenny went to Tech High School with Paula and Stephanie Baniszewski. They went to church together, saw friends. But the physical punishments began to quicken in August. It was alleged that in retaliation Sylvia had told fellow students at Tech that Paula and Stephanie were prostitutes. Stephanie's fifteen-year-old boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, beat Sylvia up when he heard.

By the end of August, Gertie and Paula were supervising some of her other children, and some neighborhood children, in continual beatings ("judo flips" were Hubbard's speciality; various household objects also were employed, and after Paula broke her hand hitting Sylvia she beat her with the cast), burnings, and sexual humiliation as "punishment" for various sins. By early October it had escalated, if that word can even be employed, into the branding and scalding episodes, into Sylvia being thrown into the cellar, fed nothing more than crackers, until she died there. Neighbors heard her pounding a shovel on the concrete floor that night until it finally stopped and they could get to sleep. No one ever called the police.

No motive was ever presented at trial, nothing beyond a pure mean poverty of a woman who'd had seven kids and six miscarriages, a poverty beyond their having to take turns using a single spoon in that sordid clapboard house after the other two disappeared, and jealousy over a pretty young girl on the verge of womanhood, the promise of something bright neither Gertrude nor the pregnant Paula would ever know. A few days before she died they'd made her write a letter to her parents--stupidly addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. Likens"--telling them she'd gone with a "gang of boys" who had done those things to her. When she finally rebelled in the only way left, by dying on them, they lugged her up to the third floor, gave her a bath, tried to pull some pedal pushers on her, and dumped her on the filthy mattress where the police found her. Her hands were folded across her chest.

Dozens of local children had taken part in the game. Only two--Hubbard and the fourteen-year-old Richard Hobbes, the boy from two houses down who'd done the branding and helped drag her corpse upstairs--were charged. Stephanie got a separate trial; eventually the charges against her were dropped. Gertie, Paula, her thirteen-year-old son John, and the two neighbors were charged with first-degree murder.

Gertrude's defense was that she had been too sick and too doped up to know what was going on. She had only punished Sylvia a couple of times, but was too weak to make much of an effort or to rein in her children. Jenny Likens disputed her testimony, of course, but the sensation of the trial was when the prosecutor broke eleven-year-old Marie Baniszewski, who had been backing her mother's story. Yes, she finally sobbed, it was her mother who had started carving the words on Sylvia's stomach, who only managed the "I" before the stench of burning flesh made her sick and Ricky took over.

Only Gertrude was convicted of first-degree murder, and the jury refused the prosecution's demand for the death penalty. Paula, convicted of second-degree murder, would eventually receive a new trial, plead to manslaughter, and be released in 1973. The three boys were convicted of manslaughter; each served eighteen months in juvenile. Charges against four other neighbor children were dropped.

Gertrude, suffering from terminal cancer, was paroled in 1985 and died in 1990. Paula is said to be married, living on a small farm in Iowa. John Baniszewski drove a truck and became a lay minister. Richard Hobbes died of cancer at 21. Coy Hubbard was later charged and acquitted of the murder of two men. Names changed, whereabouts unknown. So many escaped justice, and those who didn't did not really pay, as if they ever could. If I waste a thought on any of them these days it's just to wonder if they really did escape.

I've walked those ugly streets two or three times, looking for ghosts. A few years ago the house was fixed up and turned into a woman's shelter, but I understand it's empty again. I've been up to Boone County and found her small headstone, and cried for someone I never knew. I'll go back later today. But I know I'll never say goodbye to her.

*testimony taken from The Basement: Meditations on a Human Sacrifice, by Kate Millett, who's carried Sylvia around with her as I have.

It doesn't help much, but sometimes the kids don't die. They manage to survive, and some of them, more than seems at all possible, even eventually get to a point where what they carry inside doesn't infect everything they touch.

There are too many kids like this. And so damned many tears. But there are always more kids than there are tears for them. So if you cried because of what Mr. Riley wrote here, don't be ashamed of that. In some small way, maybe it buys a little humanity for a species that too often doesn't have any.

I don't have your way with words, Riley. All I can say is, it's not always like this. Sometimes, it's okay. Maybe that helps. I know it doesn't help much, but it's all there is.

I realize this is coming several months late, but thank you for repeating this story to people that have never heard it. I read it for the first time about two years ago, and I don't think that Sylvia should be forgotten nor blamed for what happened to her. I will always remember Sylvia, and keep believing that one day the rest of them will pay for this.

I too am late writing my comments. I am the juvenile staff officer that cared for John, Coy, and the rest of the boys. I talked to the boys about the case, and they were actually bragging about their part, especially John. I asked John why, and he said it was fun and he would do it again. Their stories have burned in my mind for years. To this day, I still have tears over that sweet little girl. The good Lord will see that justice is done.

I was a few years younger then Sylvia and never knew her but my Brother Rick went to school with her at IPS #3 and to Tech.When I got in the 7th grade my Gym and Home Ec Teacher Mrs. Price said she had had Sylvia as a student and she was very much liked by Students as well as the Teachers. Also that she was very smart and popular!I have read most of the books written about her and have told my Children and Grandchildren about Sylvia Likens.Every time I think about her it brings tears to my eyes, how could a Mother do this to another child!I think she should of got the dealth penalty and the others should of had life sentences!I live not far from the house that Sylvia died in, and to this day when I go by I think of her.I have also seen the Monument that was put up in her memory at Williard Park.I WILL NEVER FORGET YOU SYLVIA!

I literally stumbled onto this story last weekend from a link on a website I was perusing- and in the past week, I have tried to read everything that I could about Sylvia Likens- I am 52 years old and since my teens, I have been interested in crime stories, forensics, etc. The damage inflicted on this poor young woman, was (is) I believe unprecedented! I don't know what troubles me the most - the extent of her injuries- or perhaps the timeframe in which it occurred - To be sure, other crime victims have certainly suffered terrible fates over the years- but my God, hopefully not for that prolonged a period of time- I simply cannot fathom what Sylvia's thoughts must have been- and her younger sister having to bear witness to the ordeal of her sister - how could you even walk around with all that in your head and still live? What vile poison does someone have in their heads(Paula, Gertrude, and all the rest)_ to systematically inflict that kind of torture on a helpless, innocent victim? What did their lives consist of on a day to day basis? How do you have any sense of what a normal person would do - the things we do every day? I saw a picture of the oldest daughter Paula- and she looks utterly evil, with that cruel smirk on her face- and I understand she is a mother now? That thought sends a chill down my spine- I don't think she should have freedom- or even, her life! I understand they are doing a film on Sylvia with Katherine Keener- I cannot imagine how they will portray this - but I hope they are thoughtful and careful with regards to the subject matter - afterall, this is a true story. I think everyone who finds out about Sylvia would give just about anything to have helped her - for surely to God, she must not have recognized the evil in her midst, realized her fate until it was much too late. I will never be able to get this out of my head - none of us will... Maybe when this movie comes out, and all this horror is brought to light- some bright enterprising reporter will go hunting for Paula, Stephanie, Shirley, Marie, Coy, and all the rest and humiliate the absolute S#1T out of them on national television- then everyone living around THEM in their long forgotten little out of the way hiding places will know WHAT is lurking next door! I will pray for that every single day, along with a prayer for Sylvia and Jenny. I understand that piece of garbage John (Gertrude's son) ( last name now Blake) is a "lay minister" Can you even believe it?

I wrote one of the Anonymous comments before, and I'm back to say that I'm glad that there will be a movie about Sylvia Likens' horrific death. Justice was not rightly served forty years ago; these people should NEVER be allowed to forget what they did. My mother read 'The Indiana Torture Slaying' after I read it, and she says the courts rightly decided that the children shouldn't have been held responsible because 'they were too young to know they were doing anything wrong'. That is complete and utter nonsense; even 12 year olds have some notion of right and wrong, and most of the kids involved WERE 12 or older! Gertrude Baniszewski was most definitely evil and I DO put most of the blame on her, but I strongly disagree with anyone that says the children were NOT responsible for their part in Sylvia's death. (The beasts knew enough NOT to tell any adults about the goings-on at that house, even after Gertrude announced plans to 'dump' Sylvia before she died, didn't they?)Okay, I'm aware now that I'm rambling. What I am getting at is that the world needs to be reminded of this tragedy and make sure that this kind of atrocity never happens again. Sylvia may be permanently dead and long gone, but if she can't have justice, the least she should be allowed to have is REVENGE against her killers! Sorry if it sounds harsh and unforgiving, but that's how I feel about it.

I hate to burst your bubble on this but some of the adults were told. They shrugged it off as Sylvia being disiplined. It was normal back than to disipline with a belt. Thus the "American Crime" title.

One child told her mother,"they're kicking and beating Sylvia something awful"....and she did nothing...I hope that woman suffered...along with the next door neighbors who did nothing when hearing blood curdling screams from a little girl for days...

Let me specify what I meant in my last Blog: None of the children told their parents how serious the abuse had become in the last two months of the torture period: The gang beatings in September, (minus Judy Duke's confession to her mother) and the burning and scalding episodes in October. (in which the children participated) Surely most of them knew that what they were doing was wrong. Also, I was upset about how every child seemed to care more about being arrested and thrown in jail than feeling genuine remorse about having a hand in Sylvia's horrible death. It seems to me that they wanted her to 'die'. (I put that in quotation because I'm sure that's not what they really felt; young children tend to have a limited notion of death) Since I am a believer in the intrinsic good of all people, I believe that they could have felt remorse much later in life. But I also continue to believe that most of them got off much too easily, and should never be allowed to forget what they got away with: MURDER. Sorry if nobody agrees with it, but this is my 'tough but fair' outlook on a horrific American Crime.

I read Natty Bumppo's book way back in the late 80's. I lived in NJ at that time. I thought it was the most tragic story I had ever heard of.

The story of Sylvias murder torture drifted into my mind from time to time as the years passed. I asked friends and family if they had heard of this case, the answer was always no. I thought I read an obscure case that only a true crime reader would know about, until I moved to Indiana. I was beside myself! Sylvias life was not a dusty old book from a NJ library....it was real and it was here!

I thank the people of Indiana for not letting this poor child's death slip into oblivion.

I do not think justice was served. I feel that those involved with Sylvias torture/death got off rather lightly [thats obvious by todays standards]

I shake my head in anger and disgust when I think of the whole sorry lot including the neighbor who knew what was going on and did nothing at all.

really, strange...a couple of months ago i wrote about this case on my film blog, mainly addressing my conflict with it being turned into a film...tonight i received an angry comment from someone claiming to be the child of coy hubbard...i dont know if it's real, but keep an eye out just in caseJ. Cutler

i first heard about this tragic bit of history last year when a man named coy was fired from the company i was working for. His last name was and probably still is Hubbard. I talked to the guy everyday before knowing the story, he was always nice and cheerful. I believe he was fired because his history caught up with him due to the movie being made about the crime. God bless sylvia and may he have some sort of mercy on the souls of those who committed these atrocities.

I started reading up on this after reading an article in The NY Times about the movie referred to. It's just horrific and awful. One of the more disturbing things is that Stephanie (one of the daughters) went on to become a teacher. She has no business being around children. I don't know her married name, but the school district she teaches in should be notified of her past.

I saw the film today at the Sundance festival, An American Crime starring Catherine Keener as Gertrude, and it was tough to sit through. The writer/director was there for a Q&A afterwards. He kept "mostly" to the truth, tho Sylvia only had the one sister (Jennie) and for some reason it appeared that Stephanie was older than Paula. He also made less of the abuse than there was, if such a thing is possible; let's just say that he didn't tell everything that was done to this poor girl. The film also leaves out the circumstances of her death, with the forced letter to her parents and the false story of the gang of boys. We saw the second showing of the movie, and at a later film sat next to someone who had been at the premier. The writer/director added an interesting twist and inserted a sequence at the end, having Sylvia succeed in escaping to her parents with the assistance of Paula and Ricky. When this sequence was revealed to be a dream, and everyone realizes that she is dead, someone at the premier apparently fainted and they had to halt the screening momentarily. There was a lot of shouting during the screening and rounds of applause when Gertie was convicted. An angry audience, and a lot of horrified Q&A at the session that we attended.

Can children who are so badly damaged that they take pleasure in such acts ever learn to feel compassion or sorrow or guilt? I don't know - failure to attach is a real problem in infants and toddlers who don't receive proper emotional care from birth. Children who are emotionally neglected and raised in such conditions - can they ever "learn" such emotions? I pray for all of the damaged ones, and the ones that they in turn damage.

I too was at the premier of the movie last night.So affected by the movie I started to look up sylvia and the trial,I did not know anything about this untill I saw the movie,Also sitting 2 rows in front of some one who fainted during the scence of sylvia finding herself dead in the dream sequence,and people shouting dial 911 as people in the movie were dialing 911,was to real.I'm so glad this movie has been made as I and I'm sure a lot of other people did not know this story,I hope the movie gets picked up and will be shown nationwide,I know I will be going to bed every night for a while thinking of sylvia and I'm stilll in horror of the participation of the local children,Some one actually asked the question why was the movie called An American crime,after seeing it why would you ask why.Sylvia I hope you somehow rest in peace.

Thanks so much for making this story available. I grew up in a small community north of Indy. I remember my mother reading a book on this murder, and have thought of it from time to time as an adult. After happening upon your article, I can now fully comprehend the horror that took place. I was only 4 yrs old when it happened. It just goes to show that people were just as sick then as they are now. I pray for those that knew and did nothing. There's no excuse.

I first heard about the Sylvia Likens case when I was 15... My sister had to do a report on it in high school and I remember her having that paper back book, The Indiana Torture Slaying...I'm 46 years old now and I still remember Sylvia.. Who could forget ! Since I started using the internet I have read many web sites on the subject and find that much of the information is questionable...I've lived in Beech Grove all my life and I know that very few people know about what happened to Sylvia, from my observation only one out of ten ppl...I hope this new movie coming out will change that... I feel like once we know about Sylvia we will never forget..

Can anyone tell me if Lester Likens worked at the Crown Point Indiana county fair in 1978...? And if so did he run several rigs including, a rig with small cranks that moved a toy crane that picked up small prises.. Also a rig called a rope ladder, the object being to try and climb a ladder made of rope hovering over a inflated bag on a 20-30 degree angle till you reach the top and honk a horn to win a prise... ? I may have worked for him both at Crown point and Marion county fair grounds on the rope ladder rig...

Funny how the state of Indiana thought Gertrude was ok when they gave her custody of her children when she divorced their father.... Then only to discribe her after 10-26-65 as a haggerdy, skinny,unemployed, hooked on cough syrup and only having 3 spoons and 3 beds in a rundown house.... I know from my own personal experiance that the state of IN would rather let a 6 year old girl live with her crack head mother that just married a convicted child molester then let the father have custody.. Things gotta change man...!

My father prosecuted that case. Then Jenny Likens came to live with us. I can't BELIEVE you didn't even give me a phone call for the REAL STORY!! Ii GOT THE TRUE CONFESSIONS FROM jENNY AS WE WORKED ON CERAMICS AS "KIDS"!! WHAT KIND OF DRAP DID YOU MAKE UO FRO THIS ONE???

The house at 3850 New York St. is the most preserved crime scene you will ever see..! The basement steps are still there complete with the nail that held the police belt... There is also a hand print at the top of the bottom of the stairwell which may very well be Sylvia's.... I have over 30 photographs of the interior of the home and am interested in selling them for one time print rights...Contact me at HSmh2006@aol.com

I have read the script for "An American Crime" and in my opinion a more fictitious account of Sylvia's heart-wrenching story could not be told.There are truths in it ,but over all it barely touches on anything and is sloppy. There is a "dream" sequence that is especially atrocious. I really wish that somebody who was actually there might one day tell the truth of the real story. There is so much that nobody knows. Rest in Peace ,Sylvia

It is not known that Jenny and Sylvia ever wrote a letter to their older sister Dianna. That is a myth among many. They did try,however,to tell some of what was going on to her and that Sylvia,in particular, had it pretty rough,but Dianna thought that they were exaggerating since all the Likens children had,allegedly,suffered abuse at the hands of their father,Lester at one time or another and it was not considered unusual.

Sylvia Likens died in the basement and was carried upstairs to the bathroom, placed into a tub,fully clothed ,then taken out and placed on a mattress. When the police arrived ,they made no attempts to revive her.

John Dean states in his book that Sylvia died in the bathtub from courtroom testimony... They noticed her stop breathing once they lowered her into the tub then carried her to the bedroom where they themselves tried to give her CPR with no luck...Why would you put a lifeless body in the bathtub then to the bedroom?Doesn't make sense

John Deans book states no such thing.:"But when Stephanie began to undress Sylvia for the bath,Gertrude ordered them to dump Sylvia in the tub with her clothes on...After the bath Ricky and Stephanie dried Sylvia and dressed her in warmer clothes,a sweater and pedal pushers. They laid her on the mattress in the bedroom'. John Dean based this on Ricky Hobbs' testimony,but it was verified by several people in the actual court transcripts that Sylvia did indeed die in the basement before she was brought upstairs. The resuscitation attempts occurred in the basement according to said transcripts,minus Richard Hobbs and Gertrude's.

i know this is way way late, but after reading this i am so... angry at these people and even if she was crazy, how can you stand doing that much crap to someone? this is ridiculous, and the fact that this goes on everyday is disgusting.thanks for posting this and bringing it to people's attention.

What truly saddens me is that despite the growth of civilization as we know it, humans are still extremely primitive. Lord of the Flies seems to be a good metaphor for this situation in the sense that children are no longer children once their innocence is lost. I agree this was a travesty of american justice, the perpetrators were not punished to the extent of their crimes and most certainly should children never be let off so easily upon committing such a heinous crime, according to Skinner, this would condition them to think they can always commit atrocities and get away with it. But notice that nothing has really changed, children are still considered extremely cruel and somehow, we as a race have to get to the bottom of that issue. It is in our hands to make our children loving and compassionate people who stand against injustice. It's our example that they live by. Does that excuse them from their actions though?Never.As cliche as it sounds, if someone told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? Seems in this case, they all did, and they all thoroughly enjoyed being the twisted people they are.

I believe that the court room testemony was sensationalized by each of the accused ....

I see this as a twisted way to keep the drama in their eyes going.. To many contraditions even in John Dean's book to believe any one scenerio...One being the fact that it states Stephenie was asleep on the couch when the branding accured only to state later that she was asleep in an up-stairs bedroom....How do we know what to believe when all we have to go on are these sick perverted people that done the dirty deeds...

I read the book THE BASEMENT when I was a teenager and it changed me.I believed for the first time that evil existed in the world .All I can pray for is that the mother, Gertrude, and the hypocrite minister John, and Paula the sadist (horrifically a child bearing one) and Coy, Shirley, and the rest have some kind of atrocious afterlife.Though they were children how do you look in the eyes of an innocent and inflict this kind of pain. They were evil. They knew better. I hope this movie destroys them. I don't hate many but I hate them. If you read these comments, and I hope you do and suffer, all of you that took part- know that you are as reviled as Hitler himself.

I left one of the Anonymous comments before. I own both "The Indiana Torture Slaying" and "The Basement", and I have thought of Sylvia Likens a lot since reading them both. I can't believe her killers got off so easily for committing such disgusting acts on a basically innocent girl. (Even Gertrude got to breathe 'free air' again!) I don't plan on seeing "An American Crime" when it comes out, but I too hope that this movie destroys those who are still living on this earth. I, like many people, do not believe that justice was rightly served forty years ago, and her tormentors should be reminded again and again of what they got away with.I knew about John B. Jr. passing away, but you say Coy Hubbard is gone, too? The last I heard is that he recently had to leave a job because his past caught up to him (due to the movie coming out). I have to admit that I'm a little surprised at this news, but since I never did hear him express any genuine remorse about his role in Sylvia's death, I can't say I'm sorry.

Coy died on June 23rd.Same date that Jenny Likens died in 2004. Heart attack for the both of 'em. One in Heaven one in Hell. And yeah what are you talking about Stacy New? Are you saying that what people think that they know about this case is not true? What gives?

Hey Anonymous who said Coy Hubbard died on June 23rd - where did you get that information? When I read the first post about him dying - I searched the internet and could find nothing current about him. Where was he living when he died? Is this for real? I wonder if any of the talk shows will have any segments about this story and the upcoming movie (An American Crime) and if so, will they be able to locate any of the individuals who were involved - Specifically Paula and Stephanie! I don't think that "Stacy New" is legit!!!!!!!!

I went to Indianapolis Star News obituaries and found Coy Hubbard's name. He died on June 23 in Shelbyville IN. he had a wife and 5 kids one being named Jenifer.Apparently one of his sons was married to a Kim which might explain the memorial at Yew York & Emerson Ave. Might be donated land not sure...Oh by the way there is a Coy Hubbard Jr. as well....

Regarding Kin Hubbard, he's got nothing to do with Coy. Kin Hubbard was the pen name of a Hoosier humorist (who died in 1930) who created the comic character Abe Martin, carried by the Indianapolis Star, the Indianapolis News, and numerous other papers.

Be that as it may, it's still a name not well liked by people that live here and remember the Likens murder...Maybe the republican's downtown should not be so tacky as to erect such a sign right down the street from where a 16 year old girl was tortured to death by a person with the same name....P.S. Up-date: It appears this sign has been taken down..Steve

I hope this movie chases the cockroaches (Stephanie & Paula) out of their holes. I can't believe that they are mother's. There just doesn't seem to be any justice in that. I hope this movie makes them remember Sylvia and their horrific treatment of her. Especially Paula. I agree with the poster who said they hope some enterprising journalist finds her and exposes her to all those around her.

I can only hope anyone involved in the brutal slaying of Sylvia is rotting in Hell. And to anyone still alive, how does it feel to be the absolute scum of the earth?May your past burn you from inside for as long as you live.

If any of those childern of that stupid bitch Gurthtrued are still alive I pray to God that you get the SHIT kicked the fuck out of you. Your all sick pieces of fucking rat shit and I hope you burn in fucking hell!

I have a question, from all the reading I have done about the case of Sylvia, I can only find six names of GB's children. Paula, John, Stephanie, Marie, Shirley and Dennis Jr.. Who is the seventh child?

I am from Indianapolis and I have followed the story of Sylvia since I was 13 yrs old. In 1972, I read the book 'The Indiana Torture Slaying' and since then Sylvia has been forever imprinted on my mind. After I read the book I talked to everyone about this story and everyone had something to tell me. I just couldnt believe something like this could happen. As time went on people didnt talk about Sylvia much but I always wondered what happened to some of the people involved. In 1980, I was married and had a son and I was pregnant with my second child. A friend of mine needed aplace to stay and we let her come to stay with us for awhile. Not that it matters but my friend was a lesbian. She had a lover named Annie Alexander, Annie was a very nice person and she seemed to care about my friend alot. I liked her. Well as time went by Annie seem to be at our house alot and she used my phone alot. I didnt mined. Annie had a sad story about life. She was rasied in foster care and was treated very badly. Before she met my friend she was married but not for long. She married a wealthy man from Carmel, Indiana. He owed car lots in Carmel. Afew days after they were married they were in a car accident. She was a sleep in the car and he was driving, he fell asleep while driving and drove up under a semi and he was decapitated. Like I said a sad life. One day Annie started getting phone calls from the woman prison here in Indianapolis, after a few calls I ask my friend about them and she wouldnt tell me. She told me to ask Annie, so I did. After all she was in my home. I wasnt trying to be mean about it I just wanted to know. Well Annie started crying, Annie ask me if I ever heard of Sylvia Likens and I said yes. I still didnt put two and two together. I ask her what does Sylvia have to do with the womans prison. She told me that where Gertrude Baniszewski is and she is my mom. Annie was Shirley Baniszewski. Annie left my home that day, never to be heard from again.

To Amy Rose... I read your blog and I agree with you that justice was not rigthly served. Gertrude Baniszewski should have been put to death for what she did. But I have to agree with your mom about the kids. They shouldnt have been held responsible, they were a product of their environment. If one of my kids was to go out and do something like these kids did, I would feel responsible because I am the one who rasied them. I am the one who taught them right from wrong. The Baniszewski children didnt have anyone to teach them right from wrong. Kids just dont know, they are taught. Im betting that none of the the kids involved in the Likens case have ever forgot what their part was in Sylvia death.

For someone who knows where she went to school you would know that North Central is Not in Carmel. North Central is also NOT anywhere close to where they lived! I'm from indy and went to North Central.

First off let me just say that gertrude is a pice of s**t,so are her children.No one will ever convince me that the older children did not enjoy the torture they were inflecting on this poor girl.No child deserves this,and in some sense i do hold the parents respounsible because they should have been checking on her and making sure the sylvia and her sister jenny were ok.The neighbors,why did they not call the police when they heard her banging on the basement floor with a shovel,the teachers could they not see any tall tell sings like bruses,blackeyes,constant hunger more so then the other children?What about that neighbor who seen the abuse first hand?Why could she have not made an attempt to get sylvia and jenny out of that house by saying she needed their help and paying $20.00 dollars to the foster mother,and they when she had them at her house were they were safe called the police,believe me jenny and/or sylvia would have talked if they were give a safe opertunity to talk.So yes,the whole noeighborhood and even the school is respounsible for her death.Thank god we take child abuse more seriously these days.

I think we are doing ourselves a bad service if we are so hard on some of them, as John B. and Stephanie. Things are less frightening if we can understand them. So trying to make them transparent instead of letting anger just fly would help. If John, e. g., really regretted what he did to Sylvia and turned religious and attempted to righten some of the wrong he did by helping others, then, that's good, isn't it? So why not assume his repenting and regretting was genuine? As to Stephanie - she did bear witness against her family and that cannot have been easy for her. When she so that awful tattoo on Sylvias stomach, she protested. She was, I believe, all in all less involved but after all, G. was her mother - I thing, she decided she wanted out and cut clean. And she seems to have made it. Is that so bad? Greetings, Kathleen.

Nobody has to agree with me about this and please try to understand this scathing opinion I'm about to express, but NONE of the participants of this horrible murder get any sympathy from me, mainly because they got a hell of a lot more out of life than their victim Sylvia Likens did.

All right, so Gertrude was the demon-mother from Hell (and I hope there is a Hell and that she burns there). So Gertrude 'told them to do it'. So what? They may not have 'known better', as one person commented here earlier, but they also didn't give a damn about the anguish and eventual death they inflicted on Sylvia either. From what I read in "The Indiana Torture Slaying", all they cared about was not going to jail for what they did, so they testified against one another.As far as Stephanie and John Jr. are concerned: Truth be told, Stephanie probably wasn't as involved in Sylvia's murder as some of the others, but it also didn't escape my attention that she wanted to be a lawyer (It was mentioned quite a few times in John Dean's book, even though I'm not sure why). The chances were slim and none of that happening if she had served time in jail. So to answer that question: YES, she showed courage in testifying against her family, but NO, I don't think it was to make amends for her role in it; I think it was to save her own hide. As for John Jr., I find it amazing how much people garner sympathy when they have 'found religion' such as the late John B. did. (Funny how he managed to find said religion AFTER Sylvia's death when he and his family attended Baptist church BEFORE and DURING Sylvia's torture period...) I wasn't born when all of this happened in 1965, but it's obvious what my rationale is on the whole ugly story: I will never forget Sylvia, and I will NEVER forgive her tormentors for what they did all those years ago.

I’m not sure it was sympathy for John or Stephanie that I wanted to express. Rather I like to think that at least John genuinely changed his opinion over the years: During his jail time he seems to have bragged about what he did and said he’d do it again (Well, what do you expect in a youth jail where visible regret is seen as weakness and visible weakness will make your life hell?), the man who at least tried to explain and had revealed his iden-tity without necessity - and, I imagine, at some risk - was very different. Compare that to his mother, who gave interviews even from behind bars and - all while maintaining she hadn’t known what was going on - still repeated, mantra–like: “I had to teach her a lesson.” Also, one has to see that Gertrude’s children lived in a time and place where physical pun-ishment of children was a matter of everyday life: Sylvia’s exposure to violence increased only gradually so that they may not have understood what was happening until they had lost all ability to stop themselves. As Gertrude couldn’t stop. Because they had become addicted to it. Don’t get me wrong: It has been more than fifteen years now that I first heard of the case and I think rarely has a week passed since then without me thinking about Sylvia and being sad and frightened and confused.

This crime has cursed the entire Eastside of town. Its still run down, full of poor, violent, ill-educated trash of every discription and crimes of the most vile nature. A recent mass murder ocurred less than a mile from this crime scene.

Its ironic that the prison Gertrude spend such a too short amount of time in is within walking distance of where she killed Sylvia.

I could barely read The Basement, nothing on Earth will get me to watch the movie.

This case is a great example to those who want to understand what really is going on the planet earth. Like most of you, am also sure this is not the worst thing happened, even may be happening right now.

How could one become a monster, even a ten year old child? Well, reading some of your comments you got no idea what you are talking about.

It is the community, the people, the law, that makes >anyone< monster. Judging Gertrude and neighbourhood is the easiest thing, and like all the law-system in other countries you did the easiest one, judge them then prison, it is done, wooo you just saved the world! Erm.. not. What would have been happened if this thing heppened in Iran or Syria (Using these countries as an example since these already reffered alongiside in these comments somewhere)? I guess, they would just judge then kill most of them instead of prison, and that would make some of you feel better. So... what is the difference between you and these countries? I hardly see a big difference on the law-system, they both judge what happened, not the reasons, guess why? Because "the reason" is mostly if not all, themselves. It is too easy to say "Iran like this...", "Syria like that..." for you bunnies, because you can easily see they are doing it wrong, Are you really sure what you are doing is right? Let me tell you, if just one of your decisions make you suffer someone, even maybe someone you got no idea about, you did it wrong, but there is no green-man around telling you that you did it wrong. Before Gertrude and others, judge your LAW, that you born into, which is the evil himself.

A non-english speaker,non-american, who actually like the idea of america before corruption.

this story makes you, as a person, feel bad about how people can do something like that and not feel guilt or remorse. you think your life is bad or somewhat bad and then learn something like that happened and could possibly still be happening and feel so much pain cause you complain about your life. she did not deserve something like that. no human should be put through something like that. i've read the stories and watched the movie "an american crime" and cried. Sylvia Likens lives on in the memory of people that knew her and didn't know her.

I saw this movie last night. I can't believe that Gertrude and Paula did not get death. John and Coy, and Stephanie life. This kind of behavior is passed on. Paula should be found. I bet she tortured her children, that is why she picked a farm. Stephanie a teacher? John a lay person and truck driver. No telling what he did on the road? Any missing persons? That is why you should not be allowed to legally change your birth name. Jenny lied, I don't care how scared you are. You would run out of that house and get help. What about the teachers at the school? Why did they not report her missing? The church? This movie will haunt me forever.

Just saw the movie a few days ago. I didn't know anything about this case before then. I have been sitting, stunned, for two days now, in disbelief that this really could have happened to any person, let alone a young girl who had her whole life ahead of her. Horrifying that the older children didn't know better, that the neighbors decided to mind their own business, that the parents who knew even a glint of anything didn't say or do anything, that the sister didn't beg the parents to rescue them, that the pastor or teachers or any other adult didn't notice or say something. How can so many people be involved and yet so few are held responsible? Everyone bore some responsibility - each and every one of those kids who participated should have been held responsible. The neighbors who heard screams for days and didn't call the police should have been brought to justice too. All it takes is one person to care enough, to have the moral fiber, to know what to do. How sad that of the dozens of people who knew and/or participated, not one had the moral fiber to do the right thing. They could have saved her. Any one of them.

"The neighbors who heard screams for days and didn't call the police should have been brought to justice too."

Under which American law? In parts of the EU there is enacted varations on what is called a 'Good Samaritan' law. You can be at least fined for not 'giving aid to person or persons in need'. In France, the locals would have been in trouble... but this it the US. Land of the free... and part of that freedom is the _right_ to ignore a child being tortured and starved on their doorstep.

I doubt many would care for their 'civil liberties' to do that sort thing would care to have them removed.

BTW, is it just me, or is the recent case in Austria very recolent of this case? Less overtly Sadean, but still some interesting parallels...

to anonymous:HSmh2006@aol.comi think everyone involved in the murder of sylvia likens should burn in hell! how are they letting paula keep any children? you trying to sell pic's of where it happened?! you are just as bad! that's just sick! you just made me nautious! thank you for showing me how bad the real world can be!

My heart goes out to Sylvia. Back in those days, getting a whoopin was how parents dealt with their kids, but what I don't understand is how Gertrude never beat her own kids, just Sylvia? If I was Sylvia, I would haunt who ever was responsible for my death. Justice was not served and it's sad! No child should ever have to endure torture like this. I hope those killers will endure more pain and suffering in Hell. Paula and the others that are still living probably have to live with themselves until they meet their maker. That isn't justice enough, I know, but they will get theirs sooner or later. Every single child in that house knew right from wrong, and they still did what they did. I knew as a child what was right and wrong and if my mother was doing something like that, I would have ran away and told someone what was going on. I can't believe they said Gertrude was mentally ill and that was why she did what she did! This witch knew what she was doing! Oh, and another thing comes to mind... if they were so damn poor, how the hell could she afford to buy smokes? Feeding your kids comes before a bad habit! If the house still stands and can't keep a owner, then it's time for that house to be burned or demolished. I'm surprised it hasn't been already! The movie could have been better by the way. I will be reading the books here soon.

Just saw the film, then Googled around and discovered that the truth was even more horrible. (I guess Ellen Page wasn't about to eat her own feces for the part…can't blame her. However, I'm not as happy to find that Gertrude, Paula, and Ricky Hobbes were all portrayed more sympathetically than I feel they deserved; I understand that you want characters to have some depth so that their actions seem believable [and so you can attract actors to the roles], but compared to the record of the crime, the movie still feels like a whitewash to me.)

The thought that Paula (by all accounts a total sadist) and Stephanie are out there living their lives today sickens me. I am virulently anti-death penalty, but Paula (and John Jr., and Coy Hubbard and Ricky Hobbes) should have served far more time; and that Stephanie (and Randy Tepper) got off scot-free is a disgrace.

To the poster who wants the house razed…hell, NO! It should stand as Auschwitz does, as a memorial to the dead and a reprimand to the living, that we not allow ourselves to sink to such depravity again. (Yes, way different in scale, but same basic principle, IMO.)

Hubbard, CoyJune 25, 2007Coy Hubbard 56, Shelbyville, died on Saturday morning, June 23, 2007. He was born in Appalachia, VA on July 7, 1950, the son of Ralph and Virginia Hubbard. He was preceded in death by his father, and son Coy Hubbard, Jr. He will be deeply missed by his wife of 17 years, Patricia (Gorman) Hubbard; mother, Virginia; his children, Tracy (David) Reynolds, Missy (Jeff) Fausnaugh, Jennifer Stephens, Ronald (Natasha) Conley, and Bradley (Kim) Conley; brother, Jerry (Vickie) Hubbard of Springdale, OH; sisters, Freda (Arthur) Hildreth of Houston, TX and Wanda Foster; 17 grandchildren; and one great-grandchild. Funeral services will be held at 7 p.m. on Wednesday, June 27, at Flanner & Buchanan Funeral Center – Washington Park East, 10722 E. Washington St., with calling there from 4 p.m. until service. Burial will take place at a later date in Big Stone Gap, VA. www.flannerbuchanan.com

It is Randy Lepper not Randy Tepper as far as I know the Lepper family still live right there in the same house on New York St. Randy is about 53 now,I guess he is still living. I grew up and ran around that neighborhood for yearsRandy went too Howe High School.judy Duke is still alive also and Living in Indpls Randy was always a kind of strange guy after this act of lunitics.I used too see Jenny Likens in 67 or 68.I delivered the Indpls News to her house.She was really a nice girl,

That was extremely well written. I have been researching severe child abuse cases for a book I am working on. I found this tonight while I was researching Sylvia's case. There is a good movie with Ellen Page called An American Crime I just watched earlier. After a couple of years research I have discovered that not only is this story not the worst it has happens regularly. One thing that made this unique is how publically the documentation of this case is. Also what made this unique was that so many people outside the family participated or witnessed the horrorfying crimes. All the other cases were kept in a close family unit and were hidden from guests. Usually the only nonfamily memebers were boyfriends. Our society needs to realize this happens and will happen again. We need to quit excusing the evil behavior of women who torture and kill children as being the result of mental defect. They should be punished just a man would. And all child torture.killers should automatically be up for the death penalty. Or they may one day get out of jail.

I am a license school social worker, I currently work in schools and have also worked investigating abuse and neglect. If there is anything that I can say to all of you reading is, WE (citizens) also have responsibility. It amazes me still that neighbors, distant relatives, church members, landlords and others still wont get involve even in 2008. If those neighbors would of have informed authorities, maybe Sylvia would be alive. Yes when we choose to say its not our business and do nothing when we suspect abuse and neglect of a chid, its equally irresponsible as the abusers. WE have to change our mentality, its okay to discipline children, but abuse is abuse. Its not gray situation. When is using a cigarette butt or locking a child in a basement to only be fed crackers okay ever as a form of discipline. Its never okay and there is nothing that Sylvia did that warranted this type of treatment. Discipline is time out, taking away a priviledge, or even smacking on the hand. Its not beating a child just because you are miserable as a person and unable to cope with life stress. Those people in Syliva life that turned their heads away while she was being tortured should be ashame of themselves. The excuse that the neighbors and others gave for not getting involved was just that an excuse. They didnt care and was easier to pretend and lie to themselves about she was being discipline for being bad and not their place to get involve. Its clear and if a person is too angry and upset or mentally or emotionally immature and unstable to tell the difference when they are crossing the line from discipline to abuse. They should refrain from using corporal punishment until they can see the difference. Its our attitude in the America, see a child get hit even leaving visible bruises, we still turn our head and dont get involve. We care more about our animals than we do our children. Look at the outrage of PETA when they feel an animal has been harmed, when was the last time you saw anyone rather on tv or in your personal lives that showed the same outrage and intense emotions as PETA members when we see the negelect, physical, emotional, or sexual abuse of children rather in the media or in our personal lives. It doesnt happen!Abuse and neglect starts with us too. We have to start showing in our culture that its is not to be tolerated period! Doesnt matter how nice the family appears to be or how bad a child appears to be, we have to do more if we want to make sure that children are no longer abused and neglected. It really makes me sad too that still in our society the things that happen to sylvia continues to happen to innocent children today.

Holy Cow. I just saw the film American Crime..... Ive often exclaimed its hard for me to be affected in any way by a film nowadays because i am a huge movie buff and have seen so much that i have become desensatized to what others might find horrific or what have you. Half way thru the film, when that little bastard john first brought other kids down into the basement to show off what he was allowed [and encouraged] to do to Sylvia, and encouraged the other kids to do, i got to tell you, i was actually shocked! and at this point, *i* was getting pissed off and more and more angry throughout the rest of the movie. Mostly i believe becuz MY father told me when i was around the age of 12, to never ever hit a girl/woman, and to more or less be more of a 'protector' of those that are smaller or weaker than me. [im a pretty big guy, larger than average]. Anyways, i only WISH, i had none about this back in the 70's or even the 80's, there is nothing i would have enjoyed MORE, than catching up with any of the 'boys' that had participated in any way with the torture of Sylvia, for i would have beat any of them to within an inch of their death. Especially reading that that little puke john jr. BRAGGED about it while he was locked up? are you kidding me? and NOBODY beat the piss out of him every chance they had for the rest of his pathetic life?I will end with this, if i have the misfortune of going to hell, im looking for john jr., coy and ricky, and i will be their own personal Satan, delivering pain, torture and humiliation down on them for as long as the Gods will allow me.if my post has offended anyone, sorry, but after all the researching ive done, and to find out the TRUTH is MUCH worse then what the movie portrayed, the injustice and lack of convicting those that did wrong adequetly, has made me so mad i want to throw up. what the HELL were the people in those juries thinking? Gertrudes dumbass should have DIED in prison. So should have paula imo, she should have NEVER had the right or happiness of ever being married and creating her own family....i could go on for hours, so ill stop here.

I just saw this movie a few days ago...I was flipping through the channels and became hooked. I could not turn it off. I didn't know a thing about it. After further research, I was both shocked and horrified to find out it was true. I am still sick and still disturbed by what I saw. I had no idea who Syliva was nor did I know a thing about this case - but like most of the posts above, I now have a spot in my heart for her. How sad! I feel anger and rage as well at the thought of those people living and walking freely...I hope we don't ever cross paths. I want revenge for Sylvia. I wish we could all do the same to Gerdy - to see how she liked it. I hope the movie continues to bring awareness to this case so that the living (Paula especially) will continue to be haunted by their actions. Paula, your day will come.

I stumbled across this blog while looking for information about the savage murder of that poor girl, Sylvia Marie Likens, which occurred almost 43 years ago already. I only found out about this young girl’s plight last week while perusing through the New York Post and reading a news article written by movie/TV critic Linda Stasi. The critique was about the new Showtime movie “An American Crime” which she did not rate and which she said was “so brutally realistic, so horrifyingly accurate that it becomes too tough to sit through.” I was so shocked by her short description of the sad events that occurred that I decided to surf the Internet for more information on this murder, of which I had never previously been aware. The weight of the torture endured by this beautiful young girl at the hands of her neighbors has taken a toll on my heart that is only rivaled in my lifetime by the Beslan (Russia) school massacre. There are many deranged and sick murders that unfortunately occur in this God Forsaken world of ours, too numerous to even mention here. This particular one, however, inflicted upon a happy, innocent teenage girl, is particularly disturbing for many reasons. The unbearable length of the pain and suffering, the fact that her frail younger polio affected sister was in attendance, the demented relish that the perpetrators delighted in, the indifference shown by several people that could have stopped it, the tragic set of circumstances that allowed this scene to be set in the first place, and the ultimate injustice of the woefully inappropriate sentences, and I use that term quite loosely here, meted out by the Indiana State Justice system are all factors that put this crime, and the rage and sadness provoked by it, on a uniquely despicable level. It’s absolutely skin crawling. A sickening pall has invaded my body and I have not been able to stop thinking about Sylvia since I read that article.

I realize that I am being quite lengthy here but I feel a need to get this off of my chest. I thought I could share my ideas with you folks and maybe ask a few questions. There are several aspects to this grisly crime that I would like to discuss:

1. Satan’s Table is Set

Can anyone believe the incredible and tragic sequence of events that led Sylvia and Jenny Likens to the House of Horrors in the first place? Sylvia and her sister are walking around the neighborhood with a friend of theirs, Darlene McGuire. By happenstance they bump into Paula Baniszewski, a person so revolting that I apologize to God for even mentioning her, and she invites the girls to her infamous house. The Likens’ sisters stay there overnight only because their mother happens to be in jail that day for shoplifting. Their father, Lester Likens, comes home the next day only to find his two daughters not at home. He finds them, pointed in that direction by Darlene, at the House of Horrors. For whatever reason, whether it was his haste to start in his newly found job, his anxiety about his wife being in jail, or perhaps his indifference he allows his two precious gifts to stay in the household of Gertrude Baniszewski, an individual so reprehensible that Shit itself is preferable by comparison. This despite the fact that the house was filthy beyond reason, had insufficient and seedy bedding, did not have a stove and contained only 3 spoons.

2. Heartless Beasts

I cannot, and never will, fathom how someone could get joy in causing another person’s misery. I am not naïve and do realize that people like this do indeed exist. I also believe that the vast majority of these people are able to restrain their dark side. The animals that performed this crime upon Sylvia obviously had no such restraint. They looked forward to beating and torturing this poor girl who did NOTHING, and I repeat, NOTHING to them. The ringleader, of course, was the witch Gertrude who encouraged, demonstrated, sanctioned, and dictated the atrocities carried out on this helpless young girl. The reason for this, I believe, was mostly jealousy – Sylvia was everything that these pigs were not: attractive, innocent, playful, and full of dreams. Coy Hubbard, a six foot tall strapping piece of refuse, demonstrated both his deft Judo ability and tremendous personal character by beating up on a small 16 year old girl on a routine basis. Where I come from, this clown would have been beaten senseless for even touching a girl but in this twisted crowd, he was a hero. John Baniszewski, another disposable piece of trash, took delight in making Sylvia cry and burned her incessantly. Richard Hobbs, another prize, gleefully participated in mutilating and branding the poor soul. Stephanie Baniszewski assisted with the scalding baths. Paula’s brutality knew no bounds. Heck, even 11 year old Marie Baniszewski heated the needles used to mutilate her. Neighborhood residue such as Anna Siscoe, Judy Duke, Randy Lepper, and Mike Monroe also participated in injuring Sylvia. All of their actions played a major role in her death and misery. If ever Evil dominated a household, this was it. And all this in the presence of Sylvia’s handicapped sister, Jenny.

3. We Are Responsible For Our Actions

Mr. Riley mentioned how stunned and upset he was when he saw the newspaper headline about this murder. It has stuck with him for the rest of his life. Yet, at the time, he was only the same age as the youngest perpetrators of this hideous crime. Despite that, he was reviled, disgusted, and saddened by what he had read. Apparently, he knew the difference between right and wrong, even at such a young age. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that so did every other person in his 6th grade class at the time! Probably without exception. Yet there are people out there, some of which who have commented on this blog, that say that the children should be exonerated for their crimes because, well, they are children. Huh??? Have these people forgotten even there own youth??? Is anyone out there going to say that at the age of 12 they had no idea what the difference was between right and wrong? Anyone? All of the animals (children is a word reserved for humans) involved in this murder went to school, did they not? So if they were deprived of upbringing at their homes, then they surely knew by the way that other children/teachers behaved at school what was the correct way to conduct yourself and what was not. I’m sorry but ALL of the young wolves that participated in this outrage knew full well that what they were doing was wrong and evil. They are ALL culpable.

4. Consenting Adults

Judy Duke confided in her mother that Sylvia was being beaten and mistreated. Yet her mother dismissed it as “she was probably getting punished for what she deserved”. Instead of taking the attitude that her daughter was letting on that inappropriate beatings were being administered upon a helpless girl, she brushed it off. Phyllis Vermillion is another case all together. She actually saw the state that Sylvia was in ON MORE THAN ONE occasion yet didn’t see the situation as befitting to tell the authorities. Sylvia had black eyes both times that she saw her and each time Paula proudly took full credit for it. She actually SAW Paula whack Sylvia with a belt and toss hot water at her with no admonition from her mother who was sitting right there. This is normal behavior??? I notice that she didn’t allow her own children to frequent the Baniszewski’s but she had no problem with what she observed happening to Sylvia. That’s insane. Jenny saw her sister, Diana, on the street more than once and Diana eventually tried to visit the house but was denied access. A public health agency nurse came by but dropped the investigation when Gertrude said that Sylvia had run away. I also find it hard to believe that the school teachers didn’t notice the worsening of Sylvia’s condition and her subsequently not attending school anymore at all. Did they not have truancy officers back then?

5. No Justice At All

You have to be kidding me with the penalties meted out by the Indiana Justice Department. The total sum of jail time served by EVERYBODY involved in this abomination was less than 25 years. What an insult to our community, to the victims of crimes everywhere, and to the Likens family in particular. This sentencing was, and still is today, revolting. Was the case presented by prosecuting attorney Leroy New that poor? [And by the way, that insane comment on this blog allegedly put there by his daughter stating that we don’t know the details about the case is pathetic. I can’t believe that it was truly her but if it was, then enlighten us Miss New, we’re all ears like Ross Perot would say.] Was the jury that oblivious? This is the worst crime perpetrated upon one person that I have ever heard of. Less than 25 years combined? There are folks serving time for Grand Theft Auto and Tax Evasion that get more than that!!! How were John, Richard Hobbs and Coy Hubbard paroled after just 18 months??? A gentleman on this blog claiming to be in charge of the “boys” during their detention mentioned that they actually bragged about their participation in the crime. And yet they were paroled!! Did not this man have serious say as to whether these vermin were paroled or not? Shame on him if he did nothing to prevent that. Many of these animals actual procreated when they got out. Can you imagine being the offspring of one of these people? That should never have been allowed to happen. The encased souls that have the bodies produced by these animals deserve better. Gertrude, the ringleader, was actually paroled!!!! The main perpetrator of the "worst crime ever committed in the State of Indiana" was actually let back on the streets. The names of the three stooges that voted to parole her should be made common knowledge. We deserve to know the names of imbeciles empowered with responsible civil duties that are in our midst. The sentences should have been death (or life in prison – no parole if you don’t subscribe to the death penalty) for Gertrude, Paula, John, Richard Hobbs, and Coy Hubbard; 25 years for Stephanie; juvenile detention until the age of 18 for Marie, Anna Siscoe, Judy Duke, Randy Lepper, and Mike Monroe. ALL of these perpetrators, ALL OF THEM, got to see the light of day again after their crime!!! Additionally, Mrs. Duke should have gotten 2 years community service and Phyllis Vermillion should have gotten 6 months in one of those cozy non-serious criminal houses of detention followed by 5 years community service for depraved indifference. The schools and the health agency should also have been thoroughly investigated. I do not portend to be ultimately judging any of these animals, God knows I have my own sins to be concerned with. But if Gertrude, John, Hobbs, and Hubbard have indeed been damned to the eternal inferno then I’m afraid that they are finding out now that Satan also enjoys befouling, branding, burning, and practicing Judo upon his helpless victims until they cry.

6. The House

With all due respect to the woman that left a comment on this blog that the house should stand as a permanent reminder, I respectfully disagree. I do agree with what she said that Auschwitz should stand as a reminder to all, but this house causes so much pain and anxiety to the good people of the community that I feel it should be torn down. But only if it is replaced with a memorial in tribute to Sylvia. I think that a good idea would be a statue of Sylvia assisting her beloved sister Jenny as they skate happily in the street. There should be a place to pray there as well as a water fountain and a place for donations, the proceeds of which would go to assist abused children and secure justice for their abusers. There should be a plaque, maybe off to the side, that details the fact that this was the site of an egregious murder and then it should list BY NAME all of those who had a hand in this poor child’s murder. Maybe that would send a message to the community that even when the courts do not produce justice your name still will be Mudd when you commit crimes in the State of Indiana. The focus of the memorial, however, should be about how wonderful life should be and how sad it is when it is prematurely taken from our grasp.

7. My Queries

I have a few disturbing queries that I have concerning this sad sequence of events.

Q1: Whatever happened to Darlene McGuire? Did she ever pursue her friendship with Sylvia and Jenny? She was the girl that Sylvia and Jenny were with when they stumbled across Paula. She seems to have disappeared from sight since that day, strange for a friend at that age to do, especially back in 1965 when friends were more sociable than they are today.

Q2: Didn’t the arresting officers or the court (?) ask Betty Likens if she had any children in her care? Wouldn’t it then be the state’s (city’s) responsibility to care for her children while she was incarcerated?

Q3: Jenny went to school, church, and saw her sister on occasion but never once detailed to any of them the magnitude of the torture that was being inflicted on her sister. Let me state right now that I am in no way implicating or making any accusations about Jenny. I’m just having a hard time swallowing that fact. How unfortunate it is that this poor soul was so scared that she did not communicate to someone what was happening inside the House of Horrors. Also the Likens parents came from time to time to visit but I’m guessing that they hadn’t been there at all in the last two months or else they would have noticed something amiss with poor Sylvia, no? What a tragedy.

Q4: If Diana crossed Jenny a few times in the street then I’m guessing that she must have lived pretty close by, correct? Why didn’t Sylvia and Jenny just stay with Diana then if that is indeed true? You would rather have your kids stay with complete strangers than with your older sister? That defies logic.

Q5: When Diana was denied access to see her sisters, she never came back??? This after witnessing Jenny’s strange behavior in the street toward her. Wouldn’t you be a little more insistent at that point and even call the police if not allowed to see them? Or at least come back again afterward on your own or with friends and reinforcement? What an unfortunate lapse of judgment by this poor woman.

Q6: This nurse from the Health Agency that came to the House of Horrors on an anonymous tip was actually told by Gertrude that Sylvia did indeed match that description but that Sylvia had run away. After seeing the condition of the living quarters, I find it difficult to conceive that the nurse then just casually went back to the office and left a note to NOT do any further investigation on this matter. It was readily admitted to her that Sylvia did have open sores. If she had indeed run away then shouldn’t she have reported that to the police who then would have come over to the house to get information on how these sores were obtained and on some leads to go find her? This indifference on her part is unforgivable given the responsibilities of her duties.

If you have gotten to this point of my commentary then I would like to thank you very much for your patience and understanding. I am so touched by Sylvia and her life, which was prematurely and brutally extinguished, that I felt a need to vent. When I think of how she should have enjoyed her school dances, had someone tell her how beautiful her hair looked as the sun’s light pierced through it at sunset, sat on a swing on a house porch on a soft summer night discussing the stars and listening to crickets, been told to not be ashamed to smile freely because her cracked tooth (acquired in playful rough housing with her brother) only added to her charm, experienced the deeply moving end of Act 1 of “La Boheme” while holding the hand of someone who loved her, it makes me weep. I take comfort in my belief that she is now experiencing these joys and many, many others in Heaven now with God. For my family vacations, we like to visit cities and attend ballgames (Pittsburgh is my favorite) and amusement parks. We live in the NYC area and I am planning to go to Chicago sometime soon. I will make it a point when I do so to make a stop in Indianapolis on the way so that I can visit the grave where this poor soul’s body is laid to rest so that I can pay proper respects to one of God’s wonderful gifts that I never had the privilege of even knowing. It’s something that I feel I must do.

I stumbled across this movie last night and all I knew about it was that it was a true story. I didn't know the details or that this poor girl would soon die. I was shocked! I found myself lieterally sobbing as i watched and I honestly can't recall a movie ever actually making me cry. My little girl in the next room kept coming in to ask if I was ok. After reading about the actual incident, I realize the film did not do justice to the actual horor this child went through. At the end of Sylvia's plight in the film she was malnourished, bruised and afraid but where were the two black eyes, the shredded lips, the mangled hands from clawing the basement floor in agony??? The real Sylvia Likens experienced such pain and misery that we cannot possibly imagine and the film didn't portray but a piddly amount. Also, I think Paula was very much a sympathetic character in the film when in real life she was heartless and cruel. I wonder why anyone would have written her character in such a positive light. I too, will never forget poor Sylvia. She is a martyr for the sake of all the little ones whose cries go unheard everyday.God Bless.-Diane

I stumbled upon this story the other night when looking up Ellen Page on IMDB. I have barely slept since and really the only thing I feel like doing is tracking down whoever is still alive that murdered that girl and killing them. I can't say I've ever felt that way towards anyone before and I'm 50 years old. I also just watched the movie tonight on the internet and it is way understated and paints those monsters far too sympathetically. The fact that she survived as long as she did with what was done to her is suprising. I have to say that I'm really happy to read about Coy Hubbard's death as he would be number one on my list of someone I'd like to kill. That most of these people had short, miserable lives is heartwarming to hear. That some of them are still alive and free, is not. A concerted effort needs to be made to ferret out these cretins and do everything within the law to make their lives miserable every single day. I don't care how many years later it is, they should suffer until they die, which hopefully will be soon. For those posters who believe in god and heaven and hell and all of these other supernatural myths, I guess it's some comfort. For those of us who believe the time we are alive is all there is, justice was not served and those MFs got off light.

Please, please, help find any of these bastards that are still alive. And for the ones who are dead, I would settle for their devil offspring being tormented. Coy Hubbard is dead, which is reason to celebrate. Let his family experience hell on earth for being related to him. I'm sorry to rant but the hatred and anger this story has brought out of me knows no bounds. They make KKK murders and Nazi war criminals pay for their crimes decades later. What about these fuckers?

I was 6 at the time Sylvia was murdered and lived on Hamilton Street just off of New York St. Even though I was very young, I remember the murder. I had not thought about Sylvia until last week when my brother, who works for a moving company, told me that his crew had moved items out of this tortured house to get it ready for demolition. That is when I started searching for information on the history. I believe that the house was torn down in the past month or so. I still feel sad for what happened to Sylvia Likens.

i just found out about Sylvia this week , it sadened my heart to watch the novie and it was worse when i read the stories. i have watched the movie 4 days ago and since then havent been able to get her off my mind. the movie kinda upset me with how they made Paula look so innocent. that evil peice of trash never felt remorse for her. her mother was jealous of Sylvia as well as paula being jealous becuse she wasnt a whore like her daughter or herself. why didn't she beat paula for being a home wreckin whore? she was jealous of Sylvia i think. also after reading all the stories it said that jenny also hit Sylvia . in the movie i was wondering why jenny kept apologizing to Sylvia and now we know why. i dont understand y jenny didnt try to get help for her sister. even though she was scared she couldve told someone and found someone to help get her mom and dad. i think if she'd told the teachers they coulve had the law there checking the basement. theres so many things that so many people coulve done to help save her before gotten too badly beat and branded and scolded and made to eat shit. whose sick idea was that ? i think all of those involved shouldve gotten death or life i prison. whore paula and whore girdie and bastard whore shagging coy shouldve all gotten the death penalty. the kids shoulve gotten life. they all went to church and i believe u find out that u shouldnt kill and they all knew what they were doing.when i was 10 i knew not to kill anyone . i learned from church. they all knew what they were doing. i dont understand why no one tried to help her... no one not even her sister. how awfully she must to of felt to know the only way out was to die. may coy and the reast of them burn in hell . i wish all that is still living a horrible rest of there life. they r all a waste of our air. too bad paula had to be like her whore mother and let jealousy of the pure overcome her. all of those evil people should have been shot in the head for what they had done to Sylvia. they shouldve been taught a lesson and PUNISHED as they so called punished Sylvia. they all shouldve been torured to death. do unto others as u would have done unto u. they all shoulve gotten the crap beat out of them . they shouldnt of been able to go on with there lives. they shouldve all been desposed of.i say desposed because everyone that was there wasd trash. coy shoulve had a man beat the crap out of him and thrown around like he did Sylvia. what type of parents did he have to even think of hitting a girl or should i say beating a girl. may they burn in hell for not getting the punishment they all needed on this earth may they recieve in the after life. paula ur a whore and the world hates u .john u little piece of dog shit. and marie and stephanie how could u. all u i hope u die a long painful death . never have i read something so horrible and to know that everyone got a second chance to live except Sylvia . and i aint forgetting about the neighbors either... come on now since when is it none of our buisness to help a child. to hear the horrified screams and to see her with the burns and bruises since when exactlly should we get involved? morons ..... then the kids from the neighborhood that seen this stuff happen couldve explained to their parents that they were killing Sylvia . she wasnt getting a beating she was being tortured and all of the kids knew this. they couldnt of been this stupid. instead they go to the basement and halp...sick freaks all of them are SICK FREAKS!!! i would be embarrassed to be a part of there offsprings even for the neighborhood kids .they are all evil and may the burn in hell but i wish there hell was here so they could want to die... they just all really pissed me off....MAY U REST IN PEACE SWEET SYLVIA....

I just watched the film called "An American Crime", and have now read your whole post, i loved it it was very interesting to read, and ... yeah.. i just lvoed it thanks for this :) i needn't say how bad i feel about the whole incident, as its self explanitory, as well as many other commenters probably saying what i would say anyway!:) Thanks! :) (Oh and, why aren't there any DATES on these comments:( bleh)

i pray that wherever those hateful bastards and bitches are, that they suffer every...EVERY...second of every day. i recently just saw the movie "An American Crime", about two weeks ago, and it has haunted my thoughts every day. i find myself thinking about slyvia, and how could anyone hurt a child...an innocent child, who was just being a kid, and enjoying life. what really bothers me, other than the case itself, is that the children who took part in this tragedy, are living free!!!!....slyvia wasn't able to move on and change her name...why???...because of all of those evil people. i pray that they all die the most horrible death, with immense suffering for days, months, years....i pray that in thier dying days that they see slyvia...and i pray that when the devil takes them, that they get tortured, burned, marked with hot objects, thrown down steps, have to emit foreign objects into themselves, get crumbs,beat up, punched, kicked, have judo done on them....but even more important than my hate for them is my sympathy for slyvia.

God help me but I agree with everything that you just said. Unfortunately the State of Indiana doesn't see things this way. I cynically wonder if it was because these animals' father was a deputy. But it probably was due to the overall ineptness of the judicial system. Think about it, why would Paula be offered a plea bargain? Are you kidding me? These sc^mbags spent less than 30 years incarcerated COMBINED? That's pitiful. The fact that some of them actually procreated is nauseating. I, too, have not been able to stop thinking about poor Sylvia. May her soul rest in peace and enjoy all of the happiness and bliss of Heaven.

The Count

P.S. I left some open questions in my previous commentary. If there's anybody out there that can answer them then please do. Peace.

To The Count: I can only answer one question. It said in 'The Indiana Torture Slaying' that Diana lived on Tuxedo Drive with her husband, but Sylvia and Jenny didn't know exactly where she lived. I suppose she could have looked after them, but the Likens' decided not to burden newlywed Diana with that responsibility and chose wicked Gertrude instead. Not that I'm defending Mr. and Mrs. Likens, mind you; it was certainly poor judgment on their part to leave their daughters with a virtual stranger in a filthy house. I just thought it would give you a better idea of why it didn't happen.

P.S.: I no longer own this book. If anyone else knows otherwise, by all means correct me.

this is my first blog and i would like to start off with sylvia likens i was deeply beyond words impacted by her story i saw an american crime just last week but will never forget the terrible tragedy done to her ever since seeing this movie me and my best friend have begun researching everything we can so far about her and i am appalled by what these ugh i don't know what to call them cuz they are not ppl i guess demons did to her and i have read one post about a woman saying that she actually had shirley b in her home i would have kicked that demon out of my house too and the fact that john b jr was braggin in jail about what he did to her and how he would do it again is atrocious and the fact that from what ive heard paula and stephanie were allowed to live in peace and have families is the worst of all how do paulas kids even stand to look at her now i have heard that gerties grandkids deserve to be punished too but they werent born yet and have nothin to do with what happened but they should have never been allowed to be born at all i believe every DEMON involved including the neighborhood kids who helped should have ALL been thrown in jail for life without parole for taking away this beautiful girl's life because she was full of hope and promise i will continue to research and explore this heinous crime but i hope all of you remaining BASTARDS read this and know that you are not HUMAN and are pieces of NOTHING especially you PAULA for starting it all you WHORE and for all of those other stupid demons who did nothing to help this poor innocent girl within the next few months my best friend and i are going to save money and go up to that house just to see it and to go to her gravesite and memorial to honor her i hope all of you who claim to have had one of those DEMONS in your home or went to school with you and who you were watching in jail are telling the truth because adding more lies to this already tragic case is just maddening i would like to ask however i have heard the house was being torn down did that happen? and also where are paula and stephanie now? do they have any remorse what so ever? i hope an american crime brings back their pasts to haunt them for the rest of their days for taking away a girl full of promise from this world because they were TRASH and had NOTHING especially you WHORE PAULA i hope that your kids hate YOU 4 everything you've done and leave you all of you criminals to ROT like you deserve ive said my piece hope someone can answer my questions

The shock and horror of this sort of crime is devasting to hear; I can't even imagine what this poor girl had to live through. As far as justice being served, I do not think it was. Gertrude, and all the rest were able to see their freedom eventually, even though they committed an evil and despicable crime. Sylvia did not get to see that freedom, and according to the coroner's report she was innocent of the crimes they accused her of. The aspect that bothers me the most is that John jr., Gertrude's son is not only free, but a minister. If the same God who guides over him, guides over me, I am tempted to stop believing. Why should he get redemption? Where is Sylvia's redemption? To see one tormentor live to a ripe, old age (Gertrude)? To see one guide others in their salvation (John)? One get to marry and have children (Paula); something that Sylvia could never make? I can not believe in this God who would not protect Sylvia, but protect her tortuers and tormentors.

Only in Indiana could the perpetrater of such a monsterous, horrific crime be released back into society to breath fresh air and pursue her dreams while enjoying her freedom. Why? you ask...Because Gertie told that Bible thumping, psycho-billie Indiana parole board all that there Indiana minds needed to hear, "I love baby jesus". Well, for the record, Gertie was a self proclaimed church-goin, jesus freak when she committed this torture/murder. This mixing of church and state is very disturbing and very much an 'Indiana' thing. Indiana puts much more stock in there 'imaginary super-hero' than they do in pursuing justice, there lisence plates even read 'in god we trust'. Well, it's to bad that little Sylvia trusted God, because he let her down like a crackhead with a bad attitude. The Indiana parole board that freed Gertie should be tortured just like Sylvia. Even a liberal state like Washington would heve fried Gertie.I'm glad to hear of Coy Hubbard's passing!! I hope that his wife is miserable, just for being with him for 17 years. And, the last I heard, Stephanie Baniszewski is currently living in the small town of Floral City Florida where she reaches at The New Testament Christian Academy, she chooses to forget all the time she was entertained by the beating and burning Sylvia by her boyfriend Coy, or the final bath she gave Sylvia's dead body before the police were called, or lying through her teeth on the stand to protect her sick mother and siblings/friends. She now hides behind her 'love for baby jesus' and lives a free, happy life. (with no regrets, because God forgave her).

It's ashame how everytime something bad happens we point our fingers to God. jenny had the chance to tell her teachers . the neighbors had the chance to call the police the preacher man went by the house and did no thing the teachers called getie and a girl told one of her parents about the beatings so if u want someone to point fingers at take ur pick but please don't blame God. most importantly why was she there in the first place? it was her parents so u have a long list to choose from on who was the blame. i just hate when people blame God for everything bad that happens when we the people are suppose to be the ones that take the stand for what we do. God isnt the root of evil. the evil is and those people were evil!!!!!!!!`

You missed my point entirely. My point is that God should have NOTHING to do with justice! And the ONLY reason Gertie was let out of prison aftersuch a pitifuly short sentence was beacause she 'Found Jesus' (again, I guess she misplaced him for a while).

I share the rage of the people that have responded to this blog. However, I must disagree with anyone that said that God, or those who believe in Him, had anything to do with this heinous crime or the injustice afterward. The God that I know is about love and sharing and peace.

What does upset me, and what I think what many of you may be trying to convey as well, is that many people who claim to believe in God really have no idea at all what they're saying. To think that Gertrude, and I apologize to God here for even mentioning that piece of trash's name, believed in God is appalling. No one that believes in God could act the way she did or the way that the rest of her demented family and neighbors did. We are responsible and accountable for our actions, not just our words which many times are lies anyway. Unfortunately, many non-denominational "Christians", who believe that just because we say that we believe in Jesus we are saved in spite of our actions, don't agree with that and THAT is SCARY. Whether or not any of these creeps actually had a change of heart is something that can only be judged by God. Unfortunately the Indiana parole board, and many other "pious" people put themselves at such a high standard that they feel a need to act ON BEHALF OF GOD. And that, often times is tragic and misguided. We, as mere mortals, can only judge people based on their actions. And the actions of all those that partook in this crime speaks volumes and lends us in no way to believe that they could ever again be trusted to act in a civil manner. This crime, incidentally, is so heinous and wicked that they should be punished for it anyway DESPITE the fact that they may have been rehabilitated and/or reformed. I'm sorry, but by the way that they lied under oath, enjoyed their depravity and tried (and did, thanks Indiana) to get away with their crimes, they can NO LONGER BE trusted by those in charge of keeping our society civil.

May poor Sylvia rest in peace and enjoy all of the wonders and comfort of Heaven.

I repeat, anybody on that parole board who voted to release Gertie back into a free society deserves to now be tied to a chair while forced to watch their grandchild be tortured exactly as Sylvia was. Amen

"I repeat, anybody on that parole board who voted to release Gertie back into a free society deserves to now be tied to a chair while forced to watch their grandchild be tortured exactly as Sylvia was. Amen"

So what you're saying is that you're as sociopathic as the perpetrators of the aboherent crimes against Miss Likens? Well done, you imbecile. Nobody, regardless of their crimes, deserves to endure sexual humiliation and torture and that you seem to validate otherwise within your small and perverse mind is frightening to say the least.

You are an amazing writer and your writing has brought honor to Silvia. I wish I knew what goes threw people like Gertrude Baniszewskis mind when these crimes take place. The movie (An American Crime) is an amazing movie that caught this crime so well and I could not stop crying, even an hour afterwards I still have a sopping wet pillow and my pile of Kleenex is growing. What I want to say I guess is thank you to you for writing about this tragedy and thank you to Ellen Page for play as poor Silvia.

You are absolutely correct! I regretted that post the second I hit the 'enter' button. How about we change it to the parole board member that voted Sylvia free being tortured instead of another innocent victim, then yes, I am the sociopathic man to carry out the deed! soda pop bottle and all, Hell, I even took judo for a couple of years!

So you are saying that regardless of Gertie and Coy, John, Paula, and Ricky's crimes, and I urge you to review the case files before answering this, you feel that these monsters "regardless of there crimes" would NOT have deserved to have been subject to the same torturus treatment had circumstanses provided the opportunity? and for that matter do not feel that somebody who was very informed of the case that decided to free Gertie should ever be allowed the priveledge of being able to forget the disrespect that he/she showed to the Likens family, and the pain that Sylvia endured? All I can say is that your lack of conscience as a human being, along with your ability show any compassion to people like this "regardless of their crimes" is very frightening to say the very least.I suggest you go put a cigarette out on your stomach, then slam your head against the wall a few times and re-think this one.

I am 23 yrs old male. i saw this movie the other night on showtime. i missed the first half-hour of the movie. Most people who know me would say that at times i don’t have a heart, i can do a lot of things without remorse. but when i saw this movie, i wanted to jump in and help the poor girl, just because i am heartless doesn’t mean that i am bad. i just don’t care when it comes to bad people, i can’t even imagine branding that message into sylvia. i’m sure it didn’t take 5 minutes to do, not saying that time is some factor here, but in a way it is. how in the hell could that retard take the time to burn into her flesh that horrible message while she is most likely begging and screaming for him to stop. i couldn’t do that let alone watch it. if i saw that i would brand something horrible into his flesh without remorse. john finding God, somehow i just don’t buy it. most people in my opinion play the God card too often, if i were to find this sick fuck and his family, i would give them a taste of their own medicine. i would love to force john to eat his own feces and drink his own urine, brand into his flesh that he is a sadistic fuck and proud of it, then make him shove a wine bottle up his ass to make him feel ashamed and in pain like he did to sylvia. the sad thing is, if i were to do this to him, i would bet my life and win that he would beg for me to stop, but being a heartless bastard i wouldn’t comply with his request simply because he took enjoyment from doing the same thing to sylvia. funny how the doctor can’t take his own medicine is what i would say. but that treatment is just for john, i would have something in store for the others, especially coy hubbard. i would like to turn him into my own personal punching bag. i was brought up to be a guardian, but i never seem to find anything to protect, maybe i should be a guardian avenger. to those of you that say that the children are innocent, i bet if the shoe was on your child's foot you'd be screaming bloody murder and that they knew what they were doing is wrong, then most likely you would probably end up feeding on the darkness in your heart. i know i have, it all started when i watched someone close to me die, and i never stayed the same since then. too bad though that some of these pieces of shit have died, but at least there is a few of them left which is a good thing.

Grim

p.s.

to the count, i am sorry for how you feel, in a way, you remind me of my former self

I am sorry to you for the unfortunate life experiences that you have had. I actually would not have minded it at all if those dirtbags were tortured the way that they tortured poor Sylvia. I actually would be happy to hear about it, God help me. May Sylvia's soul rest in peace and enjoy all of the beauty and bliss of Heaven.

i don't agree with letting the parole boards grandchildren go thru this but i do think that all the people who had done this had the punishment of having to torture each other and having the same things done to them . everyone that was a part of this should have been tortured just like they tortured Sylvia. it wasn't that Sylvia was a bad person they just all really enjoyed doing this. if they actually didn't think it was a bad thing then why wouldn't they tell the teachers and preacher man whatthey were doing and why... they knew exactly what they were doing and all of them should have been sentenced to death. i don't understand why no one got punished. to gertie prison didn't seem that bad for her. it was like a free vacation. she didn't have to worry about bills or her kids. everyone called her '"mom" in prison. she shoul have been senteced to the death chair but she shouldve been the last to go. she shouldv ehad to watch everyone else pay for the crime that they had done and she maybe just MAYBE she wouldve felt bad for what she had let happen. they all got off too easy... if i was the one to choose they wouldve all gotten the death sentence . i would have FRIED EVERY ONE OF EM!!!! but that's just me.... i wish no harm on the children or grandchildren who gave such a easy sentence or to the parole board who let whore gertie out. no innocent person should have to go thru what poor Sylvia did.

Anyone who thinks the perpetrators should endure sexual humiliation and torture are misogynist sociopaths and no better than the perpetrators of the crimes against Sylvia Likens. If you honestly believe Sylvia Likens would appreciate you raping those scumbags to punish them then you're imbeciles. Anyone who thinks it is acceptable to rape a girl with a bottle is a f---ing inhumane piece of shit whether or not that girl is responsible for similar abuse. All you imbeciles saying you would rape the culprits to punish them are not doing Sylvia Likens any justice and are in fact insulting ALL victims of sexual violence with your inane, immature comments. Well done. If you think raping a rapist is appropriate punishment you need to have your head fixed. If you think ANYONE, regardless of their cimes, should be raped, you should be locked up with the evil filth that committed this crime. You're a danger to girls and women and society in general. F---ing sick idiots.

And demonstrating that you're a misogynist and poorly-educated twit is meant to do justice to the legacy of victims of sexual crimes in general and that of this tragedy how exactly?If you think anyone deserves to be raped, even if that someone has raped, you share the askew "mindest" of rapists. Period.Your own internalised misogyny makes you as abominable as convicted sex criminals for even thinking it is acceptable to rape a girl with a bottle for whatever the damn reason!I hope you're all really really proud of yourselves. You all need to engage with proper analyses of this crime which address Gender in this context: The Basement by Kate Millett. The least you could do is grow up. Imbeciles.

There is nothing intelligent or logical or ethical in the suggestion that the evil culprits of this crime should have endured the same sexual humiliation and torture Sylvia endured. Any imbecile who thinks otherwise is as inhumane as they are particularly if they think themselves personally capable of being the administrator of such a rape. Rape is rape regardless of the subject of the rape. If you're able to "rationalise" rape whatever the context you're no better than a rapist and are yourself a danger to society. You would do well to develop a brain and a conscience and get a grasp on the politics of sexual violence.

I think they shouldve gotten back what they gave out and i don't think that there wouldve been any rapes gertie and paula wouldve been proud to get something in them. i think most people are upset about the torture. the bottle was just a sexually perversion that gertie had that turned into a family show which is sick on all of their halves but that isn't what killed Sylvia. WE ARE PISSED BECAUSE OF THE BEATINGS AND TORTURE... i think they shouldve died for what they had done . Do unto others as u would have done unto u. they liked torturing her so much so maybe if they wouldve gotten just half of what they gave they wouldve felt a little remorse. None of them got to learn their lesson. thaey all had gotten away with murder. what kind of sick F--KS would let that happen? rape is something u can overcome but kicking her privates (crushing her woman parts )and branding her and making her eat shit com'mon those people were sick and deserved to be punished... buit if u think they all got what they deseved u are the insane one... what if that was ur little girl would u then feel that justice was served? they shouldnt be here and i think if that happened to me i would want all those fuckers to die....

although I empathise with your hatred of these scumbags as a victim of sexual violence myself I also understand that all it would achieve to subject the culprits to similar treatment is to trivialise the violence against Sylvia herself. Also, don't forget that even her own sister Jenny laughed as she witnessed the first bottle incident so her participation is as malicious as any of the other girls who were present except for Baniszewski obviously. Are you honestly suggesting that even she should have been violated in this manner? The problem with all you people suggesting this course of action is that not one of you would be capable of providing an intelligent and logical framework to determine the perimeters for where to draw the line at who is or is not responsible. I think the neighbours, whose apathy definately played a role, and even the state, which at the time would have sanctioned the "moderate" beatings, are practically as guilty as anyone. This is what makes this crime so horrific. The sheer lack of civil courage in those people who had opportunities to put an end to it. I don't believe all these morons saying they would subject the culprits to similar abuse are even capable of civil courage because it's obvious their hatred of the criminals far outweighs any compassion they may or may not have for the victim. Those who believe themselves capable of being the administrator of similar violence are in NO POSITION whatsoever to claim any moral authority here either. Where do you draw the line on who "deserves" to be raped? Do you think the American soldiers who sexually humiliated and tortured those Iraqis should be raped as well? And what about those soldiers who raped an Iraqi girl and then murdered her and her entire family by burning them to all death? What about misogynist legislators in the state of Maryland where women have no right to withdraw consent once intercourse commences? That abhorent law once allowed a man to go free as the victim "consented" out of fear for her life. Go take a look online at message boards frequented by teenage boys and you will encounter misogynist language wherein said boys frequently joke about raping girls. Should all these people be subjected to rape to punish them, tolergirl? Or is your anger so remote and removed that you have no problem with these other crimes at all? Have a think about that because the assertion that I don't have sympathy with the victim because I wouldn't rape the criminals is ridiculous and fallacious because at least I extend my hatred beyond the confines of a single crime to encompass all crimes that are sexual, and inherently misognist, in nature. I think the males on this site saying the girls involved should have been violated for punishment are arguably capable of sexual violence in general because they lack the capacity to understand the politics of sexual violence or gender in its social context at all for that matter. I don't believe they have a right to freedom any more than the people who committed this atrocity. Their misogynist mindset makes them a potential danger to girls in general. I find it astounding that a girl like yourself can fail to see this. Tell me, would you be involved intimately with a man if he told you he was capable of raping a rapist to punish them? All you people are doing really is eclipsing any social, historical or cultural context of this crime with your own askew "ethics" about rape and it's not only unintelligent and illogical it insults ALL victims of sexual violence.

PS: I didn't say they got what they deserved, tolergirl, so please don't put words in my mouth to attempt to advance your idiotic argument. They all should have spent the remainder of their rotten little lives in cells. I am a victim of sexual violence but I wouldn't wish that on the perpetrator because it would only serve to trivialise my ordeal. Your comments serve to trivialise all victims of sexual humiliation and torture. It's you who are "insane" as you so elegantly put it.

PSS: I suspect your own altruism is not as artificial as that of others here suggesting such punishment is somehow appropriate. But unless you do me the courtesy of giving me answers to my questions about other incidents of sexual violence to provide a framework for your position your position on this matter remains about as idiotic as there's. You can make inane assumptions about me and resort to rhetoric and unacademic drivel to dismiss my position but the fact of the matter is that the perimeters I draw are broader and therefore more respectful of victims of sexual violence than your own. For example, as far as the legislation I referred to goes the perimeters of my understanding stretch to the constituents that elected the f----- misogynist pigs who enacted the law in the first place. Where do you draw the line? Answer the questions in my above posts or keep your immature and inaccurate assumptions to yourself. If you want to do something do voluntary work in shelters for victims of sexual violence. All you're doing here is encouraging misogynist boys who think it might be fun to violate a girl with a bottle for "punishment." I seriously suggest you engage with gender theory in regard to this crime and crimes like it instead of misappropriating misogynist discourse yourself.

maybe u are misunderstanding me or putting word into my mouth. i never said that anyone should get raped . they shouldve been sentenced to life i prison or death. when i write i am not even talking about the bottle. the Torture AND KILLING of sylvia is what i am writing about. the past several comments have been about the raped when that isnt what took sylvias life. the comment i made on gertie and paula was basically u cant rape the willing.... so read all of my comments before writing some bullshit. what does the soilders have to do with Sylvia? two different situations here. i never meant that everyone should get raped i think all those people were evil people and shouldve been gotten rid of .they shouldnt of been able to go on with their life as nothing has happened.

i am going to have to agree with tolergirl, they should recieve the same punishment that they did to Sylvia. WHERE DID YOU READ THAT JENNY LAUGHED AT THE FIRST BOTTLE INCIDENT? i have read alot of stuff but i never read anything about jenny laughing at that shit. these people are living their lives and having kids and all that jazz, but what about Sylvia? they took her future away because they felt that was their right. well, if i ever come across them, i will make them feel the same way Sylvia felt. i wouldn't dream of killing them, just making them look like their victim, make it impossible to wear a bikini or be afraid and embarrassed about how their body looks. after the physical treatment, then i work my way into the mental treatment, making them feel even worse. after all, if they can dish it out, technically they should be able to handle it when it comes back to them. even if they did "reform" and you knew them, would you marry them and have kids with them or even allow them to babysit your child? i highly doubt that you would, and your defending their right to live in peace is a joke. could you sing the same tune if that was your child or someone close to you?i couldn't, i watched someone that was close to me die. unfortuately, i am not the same person i was anymore, i don't have much remorse for evil now since the person i was close to was taken away by evil. why in the hell should i show compassion to someone like paula or stephanie when 43 years ago Sylvia was begging for them to stop and they didn't even think about stopping. why show compassion for them, show them the hatred in your heart. vanquish the evil from this land, people like them don't deserve to have a future when they deliberately take someone else's future.

You are an imbecile. I never said the culprits should be allowed to live in peace. That you feel the need to reduce this debate to such a simplistic dichotomy only serves to demonstrate that you're incapable of intelligent and logical discussion.

If they spent the remainder of the rotten little lives in cells where they experienced untold violence at the hands of other inmates I couldn't care less. What I am saying is that the desire to subject them to the same sexual torture and humiliation as Sylvia undermines her ordeal and death and insults all victims of sexual violence and if you can't fathom that fact you're a misogynist and a poorly-educated twit. The comparisons to other incidents of sexual violence is for a framework for your apparent "ethics". If none of you are capable of answering those questions then you're either being intellectually dishonest here and your sympathy for the victim is little more than rhetorical and fake or you're a hypocrite. You're allowing your personal feelings to eclipse the truth to attempt to advance your argument which is about as pathetic as it is unacademic. The transcripts of the trial reveal the fact Jenny Likens also laughed. She said this herself. Perhaps you should read The Basement by Kate Millet and trial transcripts instead of allowing your personal feelings to be informed by blogs authored by nobodies. In future, keep your inaccurate and immature assumptions about how I feel to yourself, please. I articulated how my hatred of the criminals and criminals like them extends to social constructs which cultivate this sort of bevahiour so you can spare me your inane comments about how I apparently think they should live in peace. I personally believe everyone in the neighbourhood who participated should have gotten life imprisonment. The comment by Tolergirl suggesting the subjecting of two culprits to the bottle incident would not be rape because she suspects they might enjoy it is disgusting and offensive to ALL victims of sexual violence and she is an unconcionable idiot for saying it. If Tolergirl honestly believes what she said than she is no better than a rapist who thinks his victims enjoy their ordeal. And this is why I don't really give a shit what you idiots think about me because your own comments reveal that none of you even remotely possess the maturity or intelligence or ethics to make an informed judgement about this whole abhorent crime. Your trivialisation of crimes that are sexual in nature suggests you're either ignorant and of highschool age or just plain f------ stupid. The fact is that anyone capable of administering the same violence against the culprits would have to be as misogynist and as sociopathic as the culprits themselves. If you, Grim, believe yourself capable of being the administrator of your version of justice you should NEVER EVER be permitted to be within 100 miles of females in general. If you can humiliate and mock and violate and torture any girl to death you're a misogynist and a sociopath. Period.

Actually, Jenny DID laugh during the first 'Coke-bottle incident', according to Kate Millett's "The Basement". It wasn't mentioned in "The Indiana Torture Slaying" to my recollection, but I know it's in the other book for sure. Of course I don't know whether she laughed because she thought it was funny or because she was nervous that she'd be next if she didn't laugh or even if she was stupified at what she was seeing. I guess that part will always be a mystery...The facts (or my 'opinion of the facts'): Jenny laughed, Sylvia died partly because of her negligence, and those scumbags (I try so hard not to judge people, but here I'll make an exception) should have gotten LIFE for what they did because a.) I don't subscribe to the death penalty and b.) death would have made martyrs out of all of them. Also (even though the argument at hand is none of my business), I strongly disagree with having the perpetrators suffer the same indignities that Sylvia did, only because if we the public did that, we'd be no better than they were 40 years ago. All I hope for now for Sylvia's killers is slow, painful death. If that happens to even ONE of her murderers (as it did with Gertrude) I won't exactly be glad but I certainly won't be sorry.

this is to Anonymous that has her own personal life past she needs to get over....u need thearopy..it helps realease the anger on what has happened and anger management also helps... i myself a victim at a very very young age can go on with my life . and like u think of us u can keep ur Bitchy little comments to urself...it sounds as if u have issues and ur not ready or havent dealt with what has happened to u. i seen a shrink for years from age 5-15 and also on Prozac from age 7-15 i also took anger management . so all the little comments ur leaving about the rape and only the rape disturbs me. What i am trying to say is we survived that ...we are still here. Sylvia didnt die from having to put the bottle insids her. that is something that from experience heals with time. She prolly wouldnt of trusted anyone beings it was both sexes that was making her do this but she wouldve lived... LIVING PROOF !!! The man who did that to me i have forgiven not forgotten but forgiven. i believe that was the hardest thing in my life to do. but the story isnt about us. about the soldiers... i dont know what happened beings i try not to keep up with the news but i did look it up...i think the soliers should get punished for the rape and for the murder. the problem we are having is that a family got set free from the murder of sylvia . the rape they wouldve gotten a couple months for and that wouldve been it. is it fair? no !! but they shouldve not had the chance to go on about their lives and i dont care what bitchy little comments u leave . if that was my sister or daughter i wouldve kilt em dead and thats just what type of person i am . not for the rape but for the torture and killing of Sylvia . if Sylvia was just raped she'd still be here. i am sorry that u cant overcome ur past but seriously we wouldnt be writing all this if it was just the rape and she wasn't torured to death. if u dont want us stupid people to keep commenting on u then try to keep ur pathedic comments about our opinion to urself because ur stuck on one thing that has happened to u when everyone else is looking at the whole picture and not just rape. and just because Grim and i would like for all of them to get what they deserve then seriously who are u to tell us that we are wrong and psyco for it. it would only be psyco if we hunt them down and kill them but as u can see we are not doing that and i am sorry that u think that anyone who doesnt agree with u is stupid. ur words bore me and the more u write the more stupid u sound . i said in one of my comments that i wouldnt wish the rape on anyone and in the other comment if u had any kind of personality and sense of humor and really wasnt stuck on the rape topic then u wouldve understood what i was saying. i think gertie was a whore as well as paula and im sorry if u misunderstood what i was trying to say . i wasnt saying it was ok for someone to stick the bottle in them i was just saying that they were whores and that isnt my opinion that was a fact ...u need to unerstand that the rape isnt the thing that killed sylvia and that people can go on about their lives after this has happened. i dont go about telling my story so im going to leave my name off this just in case my huband reads this . that is part of getting over it.trying not let people know because i seriously hate thinking about it. so i understand where u are coming from but we have with our problems and try to get over it. and if it happened at this age i would kill the peron doing it with no doubt in my mind i would kill them before they had a chance to ruin the rest of my life and making me go thru the shame and embarrassment that i had to go thru when i was little . i have been married for several months and i know i shouldve prolly said something but u know y should i worry someone else with my personal problems and put hate in his heart for this person when its taken me so long to forgive him. i am . but i guess what my point is once u have faced what has happened u wont be angry at everyones comments. we may sound stupid but we are not stuck on the rape...i dont unerstand y u get so mad at how someone else feels when u have no idea what they have went thru. u arent the only one who has the bad happen to them . Sylvia had the worst happen to her so overlook ur past and look into Sylvias. SHE DIED WE DIDNT... BE GRATEFUL. i hate self pitying people because there is always someone who had it worse. i look for no sympathy because it only makes it worse. how can u feel better about urself when u feel so bad for what happened. u have a chance to live ur life and they took sylvias life so my opinion on they shouldve been torture and sent to death is my opinion and i guess i am also psyco... but very proud of it!!!

to the woman above me, thanks for mentioning me and also sharing the same ideals as me. as for the other one, i am currently enrolled in a university, so i guess that means i am uneducated. gee, i must also be a psycho because i believe that the guilty should be punished, if we punish people like that, instead of just sending them to prison i would bet that those types of crimes will drop. but i guess in your perfect society a person can just get a slap on the wrist and be allowed to live their life in peace. after all, according to you we are bad if we say that they should be treated the same way. and you still never answered my question, would you marry a person with this kind of past or let them babysit one of your children? even if they say that they are a "reformed" person. like i said earlier, i highly doubt that you would. just because you feel the need to defend these pieces of shit doesn't mean that you have to act like such a fucking bitch about it.the comment about me needing to stay 100 feet away from women, get your fucking head out of your ass, i wouldn't hurt a woman. but if i were to be acquainted with one of these bitches, or any of the douchebags involved, i would make an acception on kicking their ass. i never said that they deserved to die, but i want them to be living proof of their crime, when someone sees one of these bitches with their shirt off it would say on their belly that they killed Sylvia Likens and are proud of it. after all, if i can find out where a pedo lives and everyone else knows and exposes him and makes his life shit, these people should be no exception, because in my mind they are worse. at least to the person above me she is still living and having a life of her own with a husband. did Sylvia ever get that? hell no she didn't, no young man ever got to hold her hand while laying on a hill staring at the stars telling her that she is beautiful and the only one for him. she never got that, these pieces of trash got to move on with no strings attached and have families of their own and live their own dream. Sylvia's life ended in a fucking nightmare you dumb piece of shit, and for to say that i am a psycho, you don't know a fucking thing about me. i don't hurt women, the only time i crossed that line is when i slapped one for crossing the line after i gave her the last word, you can say that i am an ass all you want, but most people agreed with me about that incident. you weren't there, if she hadn't said that one thing to me and she knew that it would piss me off, it never would of happened, to tell the truth, i think she wanted it so she could look like a victim but it didn't work for her. anyways, those people deserve what they have coming to them, whether it be in this life or in the next, they deserve to be punished, and if i am a psycho for that, then oh fucking well, kiss my ass bitch! and keep your own fucking immature comments to yourself you retarded ass immature bitch! i wonder how immature you are going to say i am after reading what i purposely wrote down for you dumbass to read?

Grim, i read what u wrote several times over and over again and it brought tears to my eyes and even made me laugh on some parts.i also have been slapped by man and i purtty much think that a time or two i deserved it. theres a differance between slapping a woman and torturing her. i have also been beaten to where i didnt deserve it for example not taking a bite of some scrambled eggs or i moved my plate too fast when my ex was putting food on my plate and the spoon full went on the floor instead of my plate or because the water meter guy came out to check the meter and my ex was in the bathroom and i didnt tell him someone was outside .but i did pop off that "i guess i was fucking him thru the window...lol..maybe i deserved that one but the few times i have just been slapped and not beat up i think i couldve avoided that whole situation if i wouldve learned when to keep my mouth shut. the ex that liked hitting women had threatened to kill me and promised no one would find me. do i wish this person dead No!!! i got away without him knowing i was leaving which thanks to his family which purchased me the bus ticket to get back home . i think he has gotten what he deserves . i hear he is always in jail therefore away from the world so good for the world.... i did threaten to kill him if he touched me one more time and when he left for work i knew that i wouldnt have a chance when he came home. this incident happened over a tree frog and a waterbug that was in the apartment. when i stuck my head out of the door i knew that i did something wrong and he was going to get me when he got back. but i got away and for someone not to have that chance is sad. gertie was always there and the kids were always torturing her when they were home so she had no chance to get away. if he wouldve killed me and(if i stayed he wouldve )i would have so much wanted him to die. so a slap is not abuse but to me but an eye opener .some people say things just to get a rise outta someone else and the first reaction to some things is to smack them across the face. been there done that !!!! i guess i shouldnt be able to be around men. if all those murders and tortures and wife beaters and also husband beaters got the same treatment it would be less crime in this world. believe me i have dished out a few licks and i deserved what i got but as far as just beating someone for the pure fun of it is insane and they should have the right to know how it feels... they shouldnt be set free and pretend like nothing had happened. so Grim i don't think of u as a bad person. i think its sweet that a man would share his feelings about a little girl not getting to experiance love and happiness and i dont think that is a mind of a pyshco... u have a heart and just think justice should be served....ME TOO!!!!!!

Perhaps you two are incapable of reading. I said I didn't care about what you have to say about me because your discourse alone reveals that neither of you are particularly intelligent and unable to engage in tenable debate the pair of you have had to resort to rhetoric and inaccurate and immature assumptions about me because I don't share your unacademic and immature views. If you're at university as you assert, Grim, you would know as much as anyone that without an academic framework for your opinion it amounts to s--- and that you have conveniently neglected to provide answers to shape that framework shows you're either lying about your academic career or you're doomed to fail miserably. You're a moron and your discourse itself exhibits this fact so you can spare me your pathetic and desperate attempt to convince me otherwise. I note that the female of you two misappropriates misogynist language as well which only serves to demonstrate that she is a moron and that it is she who seriously needs to have her head fixed. Her inane comments insult victims of sexual violence and if she cannot fathom the fact that this crime is a sexual crime - the branding of the girl, the nakedness of the victim while beaten, the condemnation of women as "unclean" as well as the bottle incidents - than she is a dimwit and I suspect her assertion that she is a victim of sexual violence is invented. Grim, get a grasp on context you idiot. You say you're at university and yet you decontextualise my comment with snide sarcasm about how you must be psycho simply because you want them punished. As if I don't. Can't you read, moron. How many times do I have to repeat that I think everyone in the neighbourhood who participated should have gotten life imprisonment. Just because I don't think sexual humiliation and violation and torture are ethical forms of punishment you have to resort to rhetoric like this. You are either lying about university or just plain stupid. Grim, you expect me to answer your inane question which I have done because I said they should never have seen the light of day again and yet you fail to respond to my questions to framework your idiotic arguments so you're a hypocrite. You even use misogynist language in your above post to attempt to threaten or undermine what I have to say which is about as pathetic as it is revealing that you're a lying piece of shit with the intellectual capacity of the average fifteen year old boy. Your internalised misogyny gives you away. You're a misogynist and so you're about as worthwhile as the evil filth that committed this crime and you have as little to offer the world. If you think scum like that ought to get a bullet between the eyes then shoot yourself and do us all a favour, shit for brains. The more and more you type the more and more you reveal just how misogynist and poorly-educated you are. There is not one ounce of academic discourse in your inane argument so you can spare me your inane hearsay about your apparent university degree, Grim. You're an imbecile and that you have worked yourself into enough of a misogynist frenzy that you feel the need to call me a bitch, for no other reason that that you believe me to be female, gives you away as the misogynist that you are. That in itself shows that you're a cretin, Grim. If you're not prepared to provide an academic framework to your argument with comparative comments answering my questions above and if your inane comments continue to be void of academic discourse, then I am ignoring you and any further comments you have to make because you're not even worth the time to debate, imbecile. You're the piece of shit, you f------ misogynist asshole.

PS: That the "women" above says she has often "deserved" to be hit and that other women "deserve" to be struck at times only suggests that "she" is a fraud. She says she has overcome her ordeal and yet believing some women "deserve" what they get completely goes against recovery therapy theory. If she was a victim of sexual violence she would also know better not to misappropriate misogynist language when addressing other women. Her comments are dubious. She is either in dire need of therapy or "she" is a fake masquerading as a victim of violence to attempt to bolster the immature arguments of imbeciles like Grim. If she is the latter she has my sympathy but she should refrain from misappropriating misogynist language but if "she" is the former "her" role here insults all victims of sexual violence and trivialises the ordeal and death of Sylvia. Period.

PSS: Grim, that that "woman" has defined your remarks as "sweet" when you haven't even said anything even remotely compassionate about Sylvia Likens because you completely eclipse any sympathy for her in your posts with little more than comments about torturing and violating the culprits sort of suggests that that "woman" is a fraud. It's rather curious that that "woman" and yourself share a common discourse. How coincidental.Have you said anything even remotely empathetic when speaking of Sylvia outside the context of punishing the culprits? No. Have you said anything even remotely suggesting you're understanding about victims of sexual crimes? No.Because you're a misogynist I suspect you're incapable of comprehending the full extent of such trauma. Because you're a misogynist I suspect you're incapable of comprehending the sexual politics evidently at play.You're a piece of shit and that you would resort to such immature measures to attempt to undermine the arguments of others speaks volumes, you f------- creep. What you have done here insults all victims of sexual violence and so you're as entitled to a life about as much as the filth behind this abhorent crime. Well done, asshole.

PPPS: Grim, if you honestly believe that the minors like Shirley or Marie or Stephanie, or that misogynist prick John Jr, should have been subject to exactly the same abuse at the time for punishment then you're not only a misogynist you're a paedophile. If Shirley or Marie or Stephanie or anyone underage at the time were to have been stripped and beaten and similarly violated and tortured that would constitute child sexual abuse and this only further cements the fact that you're a f------ unconscionable imbecile incapable of empathy in general. No matter how many times you repeat your pathetic arguments, if they can be called that, what you're condoning here is unethical and it seriously defies logic. This crime and crimes like it are the subject of countless sociological and criminological analyses which are notably beyond your capacity for academic thought or else you wouldn't need to resort to rhetoric, invention and misogynist language yourself. Let's hear your "brilliant" attempt to rationalise the abuse of children for punishment, "genius".

welp i have to say that i am a woman and everything i have said was true . i am sorry if u find my story so "make believe" annd find me as a fraud but if i did lie and i wantged to write something to amuse u i think i couldve done better than what i have shared. i am not well educated. i dropped outta school when i was 15. tthat would be the day i ran away from the Childrens Home and been trying to make my place in this world. so book smart i am not but street smart is what i needed to survive. i live a very comfortable life and thank God that i have had the chance to not dwell on what has happened to me in the past. u are a very close minded person and there was nothing wrong with the way other people share their anger about with what happened to sylvia. i apologize for trying to make u see another persons point of view that has been thru a little abuse but apparently ur the type of person who thinks how u feel is the only way to feel or think about the situation. u are a heartless person and i feel sorry for u. i may need my head fixed maybe the stay in the hospital for depression done wore off since it was about 17 years ago. i dont think i could be any more happier and in love if i was "normal". and if being a fucking moron and fucking idiot makes me not like u then i gladly take pride in being that... u dont trust anything i have said so what exactly does that say about the bullshit u write? i think for someone to write something like i shared and it wasnt true is a sick freak and deserves to be put away with the others but for someone that has shared their story and then called a fraud when nothing but the truth was written shouldnt try to explain hersef to the ass that makes her feel even more stupid for sharing her story... so to all the people that has this type of thing happen to them take my advice and keep it to urself...i still think that all those people should be punished for the rape ,torture and killing of SYLVIA LIKENS...i am thru talking to u and ur wasting my time so please fuck off with ur stupid comments u have for me!!! go on and be in ur fucked up world and i want everyone to know that u people like this its sad...really sad.... to bad for u

PPPPS: If Grim can rationalise the abuse of minors as "justice" within that shit-filled head of his then he is no better than those who murdered Sylvia Likens. His "woman" friend, who I suspect shares his IP address as well as his immature and unacademic views, should be ashamed of "herself" for "her" support. If "she" believes an underage girl should be stripped and beaten and violated and tortured because of her role in similar crimes then "she" condones child abuse. Seems odd for an apparently grown "woman" who claims to be a victim of sexual violence and suggests "she" has gone through recovery. Nice try, liar.Grim, you are without a doubt one of the most pathetic and poorly-educated twits I have ever had to encounter online and that says a lot when you consider some of the drivel that comes out of the mouths of adolescent boys on the net. You're a complete dickhead to put it lightly. If your studies were anything but fantasy you wouldn't resort to rhetoric and simplistic adolescent-level dichotomies and misgynist language as "argument". You're a misogynist idiot and paedophile filth if you honestly believe all the culprits should have been subject to exactly the same treatment and that's a fact.

i dont understand where u are gettin where i said anyone should be stripped down and raped as i have said earlier i dont thhink anyone should have to go thru that... u are kinda freakin me out with the whole rape thing. u are raelly coming off as a freak... so whatever

You're STILL falling back on the false assumption that I don't believe they should have been punished. I do and you know I do because I have said so so you're a f------ intellectual coward for repeating the same f------ bullshit over and over. That's trolling and it doesn't belong on blogs as sensitive as this and, in fact, insults the memory of Sylvia Likens and her legacy. Either read what I have said and respond to that instead of drawing your idiotic conclusions despite what I have said or shut up and stop engaging me. If you're a "woman" you should be ashamed of yourself for encouraging a misogynist idiot who thinks it is acceptable to strip and violate and torture UNDERAGE GIRLS to punish them for their role in the ordeal and death of Sylvia Likens. If you are a "woman" why I wonder is your discourse here becoming more and more hypermaculine with every pathetic desperate attempt to defend the indefensible. I believe everyone in the neighbourhood that participated should have gotten life imprisonment with no chance for parole. Grim is saying the EXACT treatment should have been brought against the culprits and that constitutes child sexual abuse and you're honestly saying that is acceptable punishment. You're either as sociopathic as he is or you're him. NO WOMAN and sure as hell no one who is a victim of sexual violence would endorse the abuse of a child even if they played a role in such a horrific crime. If you're a guy masquerading as a woman to attempt to bolster your argument you're a f------ lowlife scumbag - period. You might like to develop a brain and realise that it will only be a matter of time before your male discourse gives you away if that is indeed your game here. Either way, grow up. It's simple really, you either endore the abuse of children or you don't and if you're here to lend your support to that complete dickhead Grim you obviously do and that makes you as bad as the culprits of this crime and crimes like it and demonstrates that you're a lying piece of shit because no victim of sexual violence would wish it upon anyone, least of all a child. Liar.

U STUPID FUCK... I SAID THAT NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO GO THRU WHAT THEY DID TO SYLVIA. WHAT FUCKEN PART ARE U NOT UNDERSTANDING. SO FUCK U AND UR PSYCHO COMMENTS. FREAK and i hear what ur saying but u fucken aint reading what i am saying .

Gee. Before you said you agreed WHOLEHEARTEDLY with Grim who said the culprits should have been subject to EXACTLY the same experience as Sylvia Likens. Your contradictions only reinforce my suspicions that you are, in fact, that imbecile Grim. If you don't believe they should have endured the same treatment and just life imprisonment or even the death penalty why exactly have who ridiculously and fallaciously asserted that I was somehow incapable of empathy with the victim simply because I wouldn't subject the culprits to that and yet a misogynist idiot who says he would strip and violate and torture the culprits is somehow "sweet". i wonder. Well done. You're lying and your inane comments gave you away, you f------ idiot. The hostility you expressed toward me from the start in contrast to your WHOLEHEARTED support for that dickhead is irrational if you are now saying you don't believe they should have endured the same treatment because that was the foundation of your first argument against me. If you're not Grim your actions make no sense unless you're on drugs or sociopathic or intellectually-handicapped. Why would you start attacking em when the entire basis of my argument is that it is unethical to subject the culprits to the same treatment if you're now saying you wouldn't do that. You're Grim. Pathetic.

I'm fake? Grim, you're the one inventing people. You said you would subject the culprits to the same treatment and even mention the bottle in above posts so you're actually condoning child sexual abuse if you think subjecting the culprits to that at the time was somehow appropriate. Your immature and unacademmic comments only make you sound like a total dickhead but keep it up if you will, you imbecile. It's quite hilarious just how stupid you are. That you have evidently invented someone to attempt to bolster your argument shows how f------ pathetic you are when it comes to online debate or discussion. If you're at university and studying how to make yourself sound like a redneck idiot you will pass with flying colours because that is all you have achieved here as well as insulting the memory of Sylvia Likens and her legacy and victims of sexual crimes in general. If you can't retract your comments about subjecting the culprits to the same treatment then you're a misogynist and worse still you're condoning acts of paedophilia against the minors involved. You have said you believe they should have punished them by making them suffer EXACTLY the same treatment. If that's the case you're a misogynist piece of shit who condones child abuse. I'm sorry you're an immature idiot who needs to respond to such criticisms with CAPITALISED SCREAMING like you're a child with learning difficulties but that seems to be the extent of your capacity to try to validate your unacademic views. That you feeel the need to do this would suggest you're the f------ psycho, not I. All I had done was outline the ethical framework for why it was erroneous to subject the culprits to the same treatment and you starting being a prick by suggesting I sympathised with those scumbags and somehow didn't empathise with the victim. Such simplistic dichotomies do not become a uni student. You're a liar and a cretin. That you are now resorting to repulsive accusations of relation show that you have absolutely no sympathy for Sylvia Likens. What a f------ disgusting thing to say here. I believe I said EVERYONE involved could have been jailed for life or gotten the chair and I wouldn't f------ care less. How f------ dare you imply that I was one of them, you f------ piece of shit misogynist c---. People like you who trivialise crimes like this with this sort of f------ bullshit deserve about as much respect as culprits themselves. You c---. How f------ dare you. I am done arguing with you. How f------ dare you. You f------ piece of shit!

To the moron that is arguing with tolergirl and is making an arrogant, politically motivated a$$ of herself. You are turning the horrendous ordeal that happened to Sylvia into your own pathetic, and quite BORING I might add, political agenda. That is a crime in and of itself. Please use a different word that "misogynist" as your next word of the day should you continue to rant your rubbish on this blog. But I'm sure that others, like myself, would prefer that you shut the f^c# up and take your feminist horse$#!+ to a more appropriate forum. Sylvia deserves better than this, God rest her soul. Show some respect, you complete idiot.

And furthermore, because I just read more of this blog and feel the need to again comment, please come off of your self-imposed pedestal Mizz Anonymous. With all due apologies to all of the other "Anonymous" blogsters that have commented on this blog, you are the most arrogant, self righteous imbecile that I have had the displeasure of reading in quite some time. You revert to name calling when you attempt to berate tolergirl and grim and use the same five catchwords over and over again to convince yourself that you are actually intelligent. This blog is for those that want to discuss and maybe show some compassion for the soul of Sylvia Likens. Get off of it with your repetitive, dull and tedious politically correct rhetoric. YOU are missing the point.

First of all, some of you people need to lay off of 'Grim'. You are taking his 'eye for an eye' outlook and trying to make him seem like some freak who's motivation is to violate children....WRONG!!! understand that due to the tramatic nature of the crimes against Sylvia coupled with the fact that nobody involved was ever close to being sufficiently punished, not even with the media attention that tends to linger for decades after other horrendous crimes, Sylvia seemed to be a bit of a forgotten cause(until the recent film release). All of these elements combined can provoke anger and confusion (why wasn't anybody punished?). So give 'Grim' a break, he IS compassionate about Sylvia you liberal idiots, or else he would not be here, he's not just some random angry guy with a desire to hurt people, so, again...get off of his case, and also, shut up about sexual abuse!! that bottle was about humiliation, shame, embarassment.....not sexual gratification, so find another forum to work out your personal problems.

thanks cut the pc crap. and to the anonymous piece of shit. you do sympathize with the culprits. otherwise you wouldn't be saying the things you do, because they aren't in prison you would say that they have the right to live. as i said in my earlier posts, they got to live, i bet those whores paula and stephanie had some dude tell them that they were that someone special, did Sylvia get that? NO SHE DIDN'T!!!!! didn't know that going to med school implies that i am a redneck, better hope i don't get you for an office visit. if being a liberal ass bitch was a class, you'd be the one passing with flying colors you hypocritical no good troublestarting bitch. i don't need to fucking invent people to help me, the people on this board agree with me because i am a person with better morals than yourself. you never did answer my fucking question you dumbass. would you marry one of these people if you knew they were involved and or would you have them watch over your children with the fact that they said they have been "reformed" for their past crimes. i know the answer, you wouldn't and don't give me know shit about dishonoring Sylvia's memory, your the fucking disgrace, if i did half of that horrible shit to one of your kids presuming you fucking have any, would you want me to live? let me guess, i serve my time and then it's all good, isn't it? the answer is fucking no, it would be one thing if it was an accident but this shit that happened to Sylvia was in no way a motherfucking accident.grow the fuck up you redneck swine,for anyone reading this, if people are punished for the crime they did and are punished in the way they did it to someone like Sylvia, do you think that these types of crimes will lower? i believe they will because assholes like the baniszewski's will think twice before torturing an innocent person to death for no fucking reason at all. but according to dipshit, i am an asshole and shouldn't be allowed near children, hey dumbass, for your information, the people that did this are older than my fucking parents, so today's news flash colonel obvious is that these people are no longer fucking minors. you are the one who condones child abuse, probably because your uncle touched you or some bullshit like that, your the one that needs to stay away from kids, get some FUCKING HELP!!!!!

Anonymous said... First of all, some of you people need to lay off of 'Grim'. You are taking his 'eye for an eye' outlook and trying to make him seem like some freak who's motivation is to violate children....WRONG!!! understand that due to the tramatic nature of the crimes against Sylvia coupled with the fact that nobody involved was ever close to being sufficiently punished, not even with the media attention that tends to linger for decades after other horrendous crimes, Sylvia seemed to be a bit of a forgotten cause(until the recent film release). All of these elements combined can provoke anger and confusion (why wasn't anybody punished?). So give 'Grim' a break, he IS compassionate about Sylvia you liberal idiots, or else he would not be here, he's not just some random angry guy with a desire to hurt people, so, again...get off of his case, and also, shut up about sexual abuse!! that bottle was about humiliation, shame, embarassment.....not sexual gratification, so find another forum to work out your personal problems.

thank you for the support, i know i sound like an asshole, and sometimes i can be one, but i never go around hurting the innocent, i don't cry much, but when i found out about what happened to this poor girl, i did cry some, mostly for what happened and the justice that was never served, these people derserve every bit of hell they get. unlike that bitch, i have compassion for Sylvia, if i could go back in time, i would have saved her instead of the person that died that i was closed too, because that person lived to be an old age and got to live life unlike Sylvia. so how's that for compassion bitch, i bet you wouldn't do that at all, why? because your a selfish bitch. you are the reason why misery needs company, you want everyone to feel bad like you do, well it won't work with me bitch!

Grim, you are one seriously pathetic and poorly-educated moron. Masquerading as others won't strengthen your immature and unacademic arguments. Either that f---head above is you or they're damnwell incapable of reading. I have expressed compassion for Sylvia Likens and articulated how f---heads like Grim have insulted her memory with disgusting assumptions and proposals that amount to misogyny (violating and torturing girls) and even paedophilia (raping a 12 year old old boy with a bottle). Your anti-feminist drivel would be laughed all the way out of any lecture theatre, shit for brains. The definitive book on the crime is by a feminist, you idiot. As for your inane comment about misogyny if you don't think the words of Grim constitute misogyny then you seriously need to go back to school. The least you could do is buy a dictionary, idiot. Grim masqueraded as a woman who was a victim of sexual violence to attempt to bolster his argument, you p----. That act alone insults ALL victims of sexual violence, Sylvia Likens included, so your defence of his idiotic behaviour only suggets you're either him or as stupid as he is. PC crap - hahahahahahahaha. Dude, you are a f------ dumbass because if conservative f------s didn't cultivate misogyny crimes like this wouldn't even occur, shit for brains. The CULPRITS were CHRISTIANS and their acts where misogynist or have you conveniently forgotten that little fact you dumb piece of s---. Grow up. Your immature and unacademic desperation in your defence of that f------ imbecile Grim is f------- laughable to say the least. That piece of s--- tried to bolster his argument by masquerading as a victim of sexual violence. If you can't fathom how that is offensive to ALL GENUINE victims of sexual violence then you are a hopeless as he is. F------ loser.

PS: F------- Jesus, you are a RETARD! The mother often said women were all "filthy" and "whores" and yet you still don't see the sexual politics at play in this crime! The coerced insertion of the bottle is an act of sexual violence and if you can't fathom that fact you're a f------ creep who needs their head fixed! JACKASS, EVERY single damn sociologist and criminologist who has EVER written about the crime identifies it as sexual in nature! Why's that I wonder? Well, f------? What's your "wise" answer? You DON'T HAVE ONE! Because you're an idiot! Just because adolescent boys like yourself lack the intellectual capacity to understand why evil s--- like this occurs and instead make untenable and unacademic assertions doesn't make you even remotely clever, shit for brains! If you expect ANYONE to to believe your immature take on this crime can magically eclipse ACADEMIC works about the crime and their analyses of the gender issues at its core then you are beyond help, you stupid p----! F--- off and stop addressing me because I am done arguing with f------ idiots who can't or won't even framework their pathetic arguments with sustainable points. F--- off, you idiot!

i dont understand why some people so so stupid...first off Grim wasnt pretending to be a victim. for a person that is a victim u sure do like take talking about messing around with little girls and boys... whats that about? u act like that was the only thing that happen to Sylvia and as a person who has went thru it myself its quite discusting for u to keep bringing it up. i am wondering which one u are. john jr. ,stephanie, paula or could u be one of their children? hmmmm... no one in their right mind would sit and defend murders and rapist has u have. they were whores and proud of it. the best thing that could happen is for all of them to die like that whore gertie did. u are a heartless asshole who is trying to defend the GUILTY. why would u try so hard to make them look as if they are the victims? eiyher u were there or one of ur parents were there!!!!

Er... retard...I haven't ONCE defended the guilty.In fact, I have said they should have been f------ jailed for life or gotten the chair so your comments are idiotic to say the least! Just because I don't think the minors involved should have been molested in the same way means I sympathise with them how exactly, s--- for brains?If you think yourself capable of violating and torturing a 10 year old girl for her role in this crime you're a paedophile. Period.

Gee, Grim.

For a "university student" it's astounding that you feel the need to resort to rhetoric and speculative drivel. I believe in civil courage and have stated time and time again that everyone who got an opportunity to put an end to the crime but were apathetic were almost as guilty as the culprits themselves. But, alas, poor small-minded and small-dicked Grim is incapable of intelligent and logical debate so he has to ignore what I said and imply that I lack the courage to intervene myself. Grim, your pathetic "toughguy" misogynist inanity only gives you away. Your discourse couldn't give you away any more than it already has. Guys like you are essentially cowards who thrive on the anonymity of the internet which is why you don't hesitate to use language which could see you in court if this argument where face to face. You continue to show that you're a misogynist creep by calling me a bitch at every available opportunity. I'm sure the word escaped the mouths of the assholes who violated and tortured Slyvia Likens as well. There is a fine f------ line between evil scum like them and misogynist p----s like yourself. Just because you don't violate or torture girls you still share their mindset which is really nothing to be f------ proud of. With all your desperate lies and pathetic untenable arguments you have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding this crime in a social or historical context or anything at all. You're an idiot and a piece of s--- and you made that perfectly clear yourself with your repulsive comments and lies which served to insult all victims of sexual violence so it stands to reason that you're the f------ coward, both intellectually and socially speaking so you can keep your speculative drivel to yourself as well as any other inane comments and lies you have up your sleeve because I am done here because I am sickened by how you turned on me at the start purely because I opposed your immature eye for an eye approach and then you worked yourself up into a frenzy because I dissected and discreditted your idiotic arguments. Look what you wrote when I said that Jenny had laughed - you practically screamed at me that that didn't happen and yet it's in the transcripts. Did you ever mention it again? Of course not because every time I have rendered your arguments worthless you have resorted to rhetoric and masquerades and misgynist language to attempt to undermine me because you cannot concede that you were wrong ever because you're an immature intellectual COWARD. You say you feel for Sylvia Likens but if that were true you would engage with proper research into her ordeal and refrain from reflecting the language and behaviour of the very sort of people who mistreated her. I have studied her and her life and death for some time and wept considerably and yet it never ceases to amaze me how often boys like yourself display a superficial empathy by wanting to violate or torture the culprits as if Sylvia would have wanted this to occur herself. Justice would have been served were they all jailed until their deaths or perhaps even executed. So unless you would have preferred were they all violated and tortured to death we are essentially arguing the same f------ thing. Your earlier comments suggest you support the former punishment but now you're contradicting yourself. You're a troll because you have attacked me JUST FOR SAYING THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN VIOLATED AND TORTURED and now you're saying you're not saying that but that they simply got off too easy. No f------ s---, s--- for brains. NOONE is saying otherwise so what the f--- are you trying to prove here? Well, F------? As soon as I articulated the misogynsy and even paedophile implications of subjecting the culprits to the same treatment at the time you got hostile accusing me of "sympathy" with that filth and for being "stupid" and even "obsessed" with sex crimes. Dude, you are one seriously f------ gay idiot! I believe you were the f------ who said earlier that they should have endured EXACTLY the same treatement. You're the one apparently capable of administering child abuse so you can spare me your f--------- arguments about apparent obsessions. I never would have even spoken of sexual violence if f------- like yourself didn't start by saying they should have been treated the same. YOU triggered that, what was it, "obsession" - hahaha. You are one of the dumbest f------ a------ I have ever encountered online. I suppose all women who work with victims of sexual violence are "obsessed" with the subject, are they, you idiotic f------ loser? That you have had to resort to inaccurate assumptions about me and dichotomies and calling me a bitch shows that it is you who is stupid. I addressed the points you made but you have not answered a single damn question I put to you to try to understand the framework of your "ethics", or lack of rather so there is no f------ point arguing with you because you're either incapable of reading or comprehending my questions or just being a troll. Either way, what you have said and done here has insulted not only the work of every damn expert to appraoch the case and victims of sexual violence with your disgustingly flawed attitudes about what does and does not constitute sexual violence - try telling women who endure this sort of ordeal and people who work in recovery that the coerced insertion of foreign objects isn't rape, you a------ ! - but Sylvia Likens herself. Further, the retarded claim that I am somehow related to the culprits WHEN I HAVE SAID THEY COULD HAVE FRIED FOR WHAT THEY DONE AND I COULDN'T CARE F------ LESS is DISGUSTING! HOW F------- DARE YOU, YOU PIECE OF S---! As soon as you f------ immature a------- resort to such repulsive comments accusing anyone who doesn't share your idiotic view as being related to the culprits you show that you DON'T GIVE A S--- about Sylvia AT ALL. Comments like that INSULT HER MEMORY because it reduces any debate or analyses of the crime to a simplistic adolescent-level dichotomy of boo-f-------hoo-agree-with-Grim-or-else-you-sympathise-with-those-s----f----! Tell me, s--- for brains, is every f------ expert who has written about the crime related to those s--- f----s as well? Well, RETARD? It's their analyses which inform my position so, gee, they must be. Well, RETARD? You won't or can't provide a reply because you're a f------ unconscionable piece of s--- who is no better than the culprits for even considering such a f------ repulsive route for your "argument"! Grow the f--- up, you retarded immature c---suker! All I have said is that the culprits shouldn't have been violated and tortured because that would have amounted to child abuse! F------ Jesus! YOU EITHER CAN'T READ OR YOU'RE JUST A TROLL PIECE OF S--- for OVERLOOKING THAT FACT FOR SAKE OF ARGUMENT! If you want to resort to speculative drivel because you're so f------ incabable of intelligence and maturity go ahead, s--- for brains! All it does when you make immature and inaccurate comments about people being people involved WHEN I HAVE F------- SAID I HATE THEM A HUNDRED TIMES ALREADY is trivialise the horror of this crime, you f------ stupid a------! Get the f--- back to school, you f------- immature piece of s---! You're not worth another f------ word, you piece of s---! Good f------ riddance, creep.

what the fuck ever bitch! your just jealous that i got accepted in a university and your sorry ass didn't. as for the small cock comment, well, you told me size doesn't matter, you can't keep it out of your mouth either. bitch, you never answered any of my fucking questions, would you marry them, let them watch your kids? you never answered me bitch, and i don't have to pretend to be someone else to get support, you want these fuckers to live in peace because you support them. listen to your own logic, they're not in jail and not dead, so leave them alone, that is your fucking fucked up piece of shit logic. last time i checked, if they were to be found and exposed and had their asses kicked and all that jazz, how in the blue fuck does that constitute as child abuse, these fuckheads are like almost 60 or older, get your fucking numbers right you dumb illiterate bitch. as for the jenny laughing thing, i never denied you, i just fucking asked where in the hell you heard or found that, because i have never heard of it dumbass. i never said that i didn't believe you, learn to fucking read, or did your parents forget to teach you that as well. your the fucking troll, you attack me because i want justice and you stand in favor of them, you just act like your here in Sylvia's interest, well, newsflash, your fucking not. your the fucking faggot pedo, your the one that keeps mentioning little children, not me, maybe you should look in the mirror once in a while to see what piece of lying shit you really are. nobody on this board likes you, i don't even know anybody on this board and the people here like me better than you, why einstein? because unlike you i actually care, i believe in being the right hand of God, your the fucking coward, you would be like the neighbors, you wouldn't do a damn thing to help her in real life if you saw her, i on the other hand would take her from that hellhole and if push comes to shove, i would hurt her captors, but since she is dead, all rules are thrown out. if we were having this conversation in real life, i would kick your fucking ass and go to jail with a smile on my face! do us a fucking favor, stay off of this board and quit looking up child porn, get some fucking help because this shit is getting old with your dumb retarded inbred redneck ass swine bitch loser degenerate wannabe victim.

Well well well, Tolergirl. So you're defending a f------ creep who has alluded to the oral rape of another girl:"...you can't keep it out of your mouth either. bitch...":and yet you foolishly expect me to believe that you're even remotely intelligent and capable of comprehending the extent of this crime as is ARTICULATED BY DEAN AND NOE AND MILLET AND EVERY OTHER EXPERT WHOSE VIEWS REINFORCE MY OWN. Well, idiot? If Grim and yourself are such f------ experts why is it that your idiotic comments are irreconcilable with the research of the experts whenever you dismiss the gender politics at play EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM ACKNOWLEDGES AND IDENTIFIES AND ANALYSES? Well, S--- FOR BRAINS? The experts reinforce my arguments about the misogyny at the core of the crime and your arguemnst are about as unacademic as it gets. You're a f------ disgrace to your gender for defending a guy who has obvious f------ issues with girls! Well done, you idiot. You're an imbecile who has shaped your pathetic view based on little more than hearsay and the superficial cries of hypocrites like Grim and that you defend that retarded loser and his earlier assertions that subjecting the culprits to what would constitute child abuse only shows that you're a dimwit as well. Funny how you attempt to undermine my intelligence because I haven't addressed you when you haven't even identified yourself as Tolergirl for some time. F------ loser. You're clutching at straws when you have to base an "argument" if you can call it that on such ridiculous and fallacious logic, s--- for brains. With the anonymity of the internet it's just as likely that that f------ misogynst c---sucker has appropriated the name Tolergirl to attempt to undermine me again with such a dumb excuse for an "argument". He calls me a degenerate and yet he has allowed his "arguments" to degenerate into disgusting and false accusations of child pornography. He is a f-------. As a feminist and a humanist I am against ALL FORMS of a pornography and his dumbass comment only gives him away that it is in fact he who suffers from severe sociopathy. HE is the misogynist so it stands to reason that if anyone here uses commodities that cultivate the abuse of underage girls it is probably him. What sort of repulsive and sociopathic f---tard is this clown to accuse a woman of such abuse and to drop such misogynist comments about having his member in her mouth? YOU'RE AS BAD AS HE IS IF IT'S EVEN YOU. Here's a lesson, s--- for brains:you're evidently an adolescent because your discourse reveals that much AT LEAST. If you're going to go and engage in debate with grown ups with real tertiary qualifications and not the imaginary qualifications of someone as obviously poorly educated and socialised as Grim, you will look like a complete f------- idiot. Any adult who read the s--- that f------ jackass has written would be beside themselves with laughter if not disgust. He is a f------ liar and a cretin and he knows it. Frankly I don't give a f------ s--- anymore. That the administrator of the blog has allowed this f------ sociopathic creep to make disgusting and false allegations about child abuse and child pornography without censor suggests there is very little f------ point in being here at all. I am not wasting another f------ word on such a ridiculous and disgusting individual. Were the anonymity of the internet lifted I would report him for his comments as many have constituted the defamation of character as well as vilification. If you're not Grim you can f--- off as well as he because you're as bad as he is for defending such f------ disgusting false assumptions. I am not wasting another f------ moment of time on this blog to encourage this troll piece of s--- with his disgusting comments so you can f--- off for all I care. Good riddance to s---!

Clear evidence of sociopathy will emerge as soon as that f------ clown addresses me when I won't even be returning or reading his idiotic posts. He will type away at nobody because he is a f------ loser. Having read every work about the crime by the experts I think I know just a little bit more than that idiot. Practically all of the evil filth who participated are now dead so unless he is going to go and beat the s--- out of old women all he will have to beat the s--- out of is the air. That he says he would beat the s--- out of me if this were face to face shows how f------ sociopathic he really is. He is saying he would beat the s--- out of a woman purely because she contests his intelligence and maturity. Haha. What a f------- crybaby. I suspect this evidently pathetic and craven loser would be in a fit of tears before he was even able to land a hit. Anyone who has supported this repulsive piece of s--- who has not only invented a victim of sexual violence to congratrulate himself and his idiotic comments but has used f----- up misogynst language including a repulsive allusion to raping the mouth of his opponent is as worthless as he is. I should log a formal complaint and request the IP address of this a------ so he can be identified and have him charged for defamation and vilification. But I have bigger fish to fry then to argue with a f------- joke whose discourse gives it away that his qualifications are imaginary because he has not once worded a remark with academic discourse, whose misogyny alone serves to demonstrate that he is f------ immature and about as "intelligent" as plankton. How f------ sad that this piece of s--- believes what he has said here makes him look "clever" or "tough" or whatever. His discourse gives him away and it couldn't be more f------ obvious that he is a douchebag with the intellectual capacity of the average teenage boy and a coward and if he honestly thinks any grown up who reads the s--- he has written will conclude otherwise then he is a f------ bigger idiot than expected. I couldn't care less if those who murdered the innocent victim of this crime died horrible deaths, but neither could I care less if a piece of filth like Grim was torn asunder under a car or something. He and his moronic and misogynst and f----- up repulsive comments about child porn and abuse are a complete waste of space. Good f------ Riddance!

my goodness...that woman is PSYCHO!!!! she does have problems and u are right no one likes her and feel she is a waste of space and really a disturbed individual. she has made no point what-so-ever and just keeps calling Grim names. maybe she really will stop wasting the space on this post because i really don't think anyone cares to hear the bullcrap that she is writing. she doesnt have a point with all that she has written and just keeps repeating herself. she is a fraud and no one likes her . is so funny that she thinks anyone really likes reading her meaningless words. people like that should not be able to have any kind of communication to the outside world. she is most certainly a freak of nature and i feel sorry for whom ever knows her

to the bitch....i am cock sucker and my man likes how i do it . lol... u are a disgrace to the human race.....no one here has agreed with anything u have said and u still want to keep going on and whats with u putting words in everyones mouth. i hate people like u !!! u are annoying and it sounds to me ur only on her to piss people off and the only thing i have to say about sticking up for Grim is ....U GO GRIM.... i wish no one had to experience this type of ignorance or insanity that this woman has found amusing. there are sick people on the net and she has proven it.

thanks tolergirl and all others who wish to remain anonymous. dumbass bitch, to anyone that is reading this, when did i ever say that i was going to orally rape a victim? i clearly said that you like sucking my dick, since you type with it in your mouth talking all that dumb shit. your the fucking bullshitting ass bitch! you clearly state that you are a feminist, which means that you think just because you have a vagina you think that you are automatically better than me or other women who defend men. how in the fuck is it child abuse if i kick an adult's ass, because i sure as hell don't remember talking about doing shit like that to kids, only the assholes that did this horrible crime and there all either old or dead. i don't need to make up victims to have support, and i damn sure wouldn't cry while kicking your ass in real life, your the type of bitch that merits an asswhopping, you never know when to stop. i hope someone sean connery's the shit out of your ass. if someone did that to you and i knew it was you, i would defend them and buy them a steak dinner for doing me a fucking favor. your the one that keeps on bringing up childporn, so how in the hell am i the pedo? i never bring that shit to the table, you do and never stop, i bet your going to be on later just to read my post attacking your dumbass and then your going to resort to childporn and false allegations as usual to make your claim. your shit is worthless, and it doesn't take a fucking expert to realize that sex is also used to humilate people as well, which is what the fucking bottle was used for you fucking retarded ass piece of damn trailor park trash!!!!!!!

Please Mizz Anonymous, go away. Keep your sociopathic feminist drivel for your weekly NOW or Planned Parenthood meetings. This particular blog should be dedicated to honor and speak about the soul of Sylvia Likens and perhaps to help heal all of us who are so wounded, even to this day, about what has occurred to her. It is not for your sophomoric viewpoints and the ensuing idiotic arguments that you are bringing to this forum. For the sake of poor Sylvia, please do not write anymore on this blog. You are disgracing her memory and fomenting outrage among people who are truly touched about the hideous things that happened to her and how her young, innocent life was so tragically extinguished. All you are doing is boring us with your political nonsense and trying to pass yourself off as an educated superior elitist by using the same 6 phrases (misogyny, academic, university, sociology, paedophilia, neighbourhood) over and over again. When your not using these six phrases you are displaying your actual academic credentials by using language that would make sailors blush. The fact that you occasionally spell words, but not all, in the English style as opposed to the American spelling provides further testimony to your ludicrous attempt to pass yourself off as a member of the Intelligentsia. I apologize to poor Sylvia, the Likens family, and to all of you out there that are so touched and hurt by the events that happened in Indianapolis in 1965 for addressing this idiot on this blog. But I feel that Mizz Anonymous really needs, as she would say so articulately herself, to shut the f^ck up and go away and let us who mourn and feel for Sylvia and her family do so in peace.

Sylvia, may your soul rest in peace and my sincerest and deepest sympathy goes out to the Likens family and anyone out there that may have been close to Sylvia. Without say the same sentiments go out to anyone else out there that may have experienced or loved someone that has experienced abuse themselves. God bless you all.

Just one more thing. On behalf of bringing this blog back to what is its intended purpose, lets please, all of us, ignore the inane rantings of Mizz Anonymous from now on. I know that it is difficult especially if one is called out and berated as Mizz Anonymous has done to tolergirl and grim, but please let's get this blog to return to its intended purpose. If we ignore her then maybe she will go away. These feminist blowhards strive for an ear that will pay attention to them so let's not give her the satisfaction. Let's civilly discuss and honor the memory of Sylvia Likens who endured more than anyone ever should that has a Living Soul. Let's let her beauty shine through.

God bless you Sylvia, and your friends and family and all others out there harmed in any way by abuse, neglect or violence.

cut the pc crap defends grim who accuses a woman of downloading child porn and says he wants to bash her up and says his cock is in her mouth...youre as homo as he is...anyone can play that stupid game...you boys are so ugly and stupid that you have resigned yourselves to the cold harsh fact that no girl will eva want anything to with you so you molest your baby brothers as soon as your parents are outta the house with your poofter boyfriends

cut the pc crap...yr a closet fag...anyone who can read can see that g. r. i. m. (gay rider of males) has used his entire fuckin time here to talk about hitting people who are dead and to act like a psycho just cos someone made him look like the fag moron he is so when you insinuate that he has been paying his respects you kinda let it outta the closet that yr the same homo loser or just another lamebrained faggot.

g.r.i.m (gay rider of males) says he would hit that woman.how about this loser leaves his # and i smack his small gay skull around a lil in her place. tough guy over the net but a chicken shit homo no doubt.

cut the pc crap...yr hatred of "feminists" n "liberals" or "libertarians" or howeva else you stupid fuckin americans wanna label that woman even outranks yr ability to feel the slightest hint of contempt for what that homo loser grim has said when anyone who can read can decipher he doesnt really give a shit about sylvia or anyone or anything except himself and his online image as a total mr tough guy fag who thinks hes smarter than he obviously is...u can stop pretendin you give a shit because if yr not in the slightest bit able to defend one female from even the verbal abuse she got from some fuckin douchebag online you obviously lack the fuckin courage to have done a damn thing to try and save this poor girl from what harmed and killed her...is it any wonder the rest of the world thinks you americans are as thick as shit?

Listen to yourselves! For a site where people on the victim’s side discuss with each other, you sure lash out. Might as well be a transcript from the inside of 3850 East New York Street, Indianapolis, in – let’s say, early September 1965. (Paula and Gertrude giving out to Sylvia, for instance. Or Coy, in a chatting mood.) Could we get back to the case, please? Someone asked why Gertrude never beat her own children. Quite apart from the fact that at least two of them (Paula and John) were sturdy enough to strike back, one of the psychiatrists giving evidence in court seems to have an answer to that. He said she was continually afraid to loose the affection of people she was emotionally linked to. This man was not taken all that seriously at the time because he got a lot of things wrong, but there he may have had a point. All the anger she felt about her children seems to have been transferred to Sylvia. In Paula’s case the transfer is even quite obvious because as soon as Gertrude realised or suspect that her oldest daughter was pregnant she started to accuse Sylvia of “not having had a period for three months” (to Phyllis Vermillion, I believe). What do you think? Love, Kathleen.

On a blog that is dedicated to discussing the sad and egregious occurrences that happened to a vivacious happy young girl, there are unfortunately ambulance chasers out there that have used this opportunity to turn this forum into their own personal political soapbox. dredd, it was nice of you to finally mention Sylvia (even though you didn't mention anything good, bad, remorseful about her) in your FIFTH submissive to this blog. The rest was filled with inane accusations, pathetic assumptions, and four letter words. Women around the world must be very proud of you. Can you and all of the other women's rights fanatics out there please stop littering this blog with your passe garbage? At its utmost it is damaging to those people emotional distraught about this sad part of our history and at the very least it is boring as h^ll. This case and the horrific brutality inflicted upon Sylvia have NOTHING to do with the nonsense that you are purporting. Sylvia, the Likens family, and all of us that are SINCERELY upset by this tragedy deserve much better. Getting back to the proper intentions of this discussion, the last writer mentioned Phyllis Vermillion. Here's a woman that actually SAW poor Sylvia in her poor condition, saw Paula abuse Sylvia right in front of her, and didn't allow her own kids to frequent that sickening household. Yet she didn't see warranted to do anything about it? She is guilty of indifference to the point of it being criminal and should have been punished as well.

God bless you poor Sylvia. In life you certainly deserved much better and I dare say that in a forum dedicated to your memory, you certainly deserve better than this. May your soul rest in peace.

Cut The PC Cr@p, you are right, of course, in implying that Sylvia might still be alive if Ms. Vermillion had called the police that night (you cannot be sure that the phone call about a child with sores did not come from her, though) instead of just thinking about it. But can you honestly say that each time you heard a child crying more than you deem normal next door you did call the police or go over to see what’s happening? And a phrase like “I haven’t been in the situation but I would, if I were” just is too easy. As long as we do not understand the situation - of them all - in all it's aspect we cannot prevent it happening again and there will be many Sylvias yet. Greetings, Kathleen

Thank you Kathleen and might I add that it is pleasant to finally have some civil discourse on this blog. I do respectfully disagree with you however because Mrs. Vermillion actually SAW the condition that Sylvia was in, KNEW that she wasn't even one of Gertrude's daughters, and SAW Paula blatantly abuse her. While I agree with you that it is easy to say "I would have done this "or "I would have done that", I cannot help but believe that Mrs. Vermillion saw too much to just keep quiet. Have a very pleasant day. As always my heartfelt sympathy goes out to anyone adversely affected by this sickening occurrence and may God bless Sylvia and her friends and family.

haha dredd, i like how you try to change my name into an acronym, but guess what dumbass, there is no fucking o in grim retard. so here is a nice one for you Degenerate Riding Every Donkey Dickfucking fag, so what if i slapped a girl, i gave her the last word and was on my leaving when she crossed the line, for a while we didn't talk but we talk now and have gotten over that incident. i find it funny that you say i fuck my little brother, fyi i have an older sister and i don't want to hear about your life's tragedy of your older bro and his poofter boyfriend fucking you in the ass until you bleeed! i don't want to hear that shit and i'm pretty damn sure no one else does either. bash my gay skull in, yeah right, keep dreaming bitch, i bet that you and that anonymous bitch are related or some dumbshit like that. go fuck yourself along with the baniszewski's you two-faced faggot.stay in school, you might learn something bitch!

Please let me add as one who just read this entire blog. I have tons of time on my hand at the moment.I too am deeply touched by the accounts of what happened to Sylvia. Human beings have been doing horrible things to each other since the begining of mankind.My heart hurts for those who have been harmed, damaged, and neglected.As for how the case turned out. Who got what sentence and for how much...had to do with our judicial system. People of ignorance back then. All who were involved...what they get is up what choices they choose. I personaly believe in Kharma. You reap what you sow.As for the Grimm, Tolergirl, all others that ran off track and began to character assanate each other is deploreable. You attack each other and others attak back and what did it help? Nothing really. Except maybe raise some bloodpressures. Revenge is not for us to dispence. Much less argue over. When intelligence fails....people attack your character. Now THAT is a sign of weakness of character and lack of intelligence. What would poor Sylvia have thought has she read this entire blog?? I think she might cry. I found it sad that you all got so far away from the story of Sylvia and her memory.

cut the pc crap...yr as hopeless as that homo douchebag grim...u adequately label that feminist a feminist but then u label her a "liberal" or "libertarian"...u doubt her integrity because she uses expletives which anyone who can read can see she didnt do until that gay moron grim started to attack her n yet if u knew wtf u were talkin about u would know that "liberal" n "libertarian" fags support the free market whereas feminists criticise it because it distributes n sells certain products whose production is practically as abusive as anything sylvia likens eva experienced...she cant be both...u dont even know the basic fuckin principles of these "isms" beyond yr stupid fuckin gay american feminists-n-libs-is-the-same shit which shows yr probably as young n dumb as grim...u cant even wrap the mud that replaces what should be brain matter in that small fag skull of yrs around what r pretty basic sociopolitical concepts really...n yr equally gay misuse o pc in yr name n remarks is just as strikin as these errors o judgement...just cos morons like yrself who sound like rednecks if ever there were have hijacked the term to apply to anything that remotely resembles censorship doesnt mean yr own behaviour isnt politically correct cos yr stupid fuckin faggot defence o a fellow male in spite of his atrocious behaviour just because u hate feminists n "liberals" n "liberarians" IS political correctness by the very fuckin true definition of the word cos u chose to take the safe route that any fuckin politicised coward would take instead o showin u had the courage to stand up to that homo to defend that woman...n if u hate censorship so fuckin much yr a liberal or libertarian yrself to some extent u fuckin moron...i am not a feminist or "liberal" or libertarian" fag so good fuckin luck stretchin the limits of yr "brain" to work that one out u homo...the perimeters o yr knowledge of "isms" n other social constructs makes u sound like some fuckin school drop out or thickheaded suburban douchebag...i will repeat the obvious that u lack the courage n conviction to have done a damn thing to try to rescue sylvia because u dont even possess the decency to defend a female being attacked by some total fuckin lunatic online...i would have marched in their to try to rescue the poor girl n god help anyone who stood in my way...u would have been too busy cryin about the feminist implications o rescuin a female from such torment cos god forbid should u do anything even remotely feminist in yr miserable life...if yr anything like yr gay lunatic friend grim u would have played a part in her torment if anything...yr too fuckin dogmatic with yr gay ass american "liberal" n "libertarian" whingin to have the courage to do a damn thing for anyone...yr just a fuckin selfish as grim (even in his first remarks he said he is not the type of guy who is typically touched or moved or bothered by anything) or any other stupid fuckin american neo con moron who lacks the decency to empathise with anyone who is suffering from abuse or exploitation n ultimately its neo con morons like yrself that cause that fuckin abuse...u pair o homos r the sort o ppl that make the rest of the world conclude that u americans r all as stupid as one another.

my apologies to sarah n others who have tried to keep this blog to the point. i n i suspect the woman who was scared away wouldnt have even played a part in character assassination if it wasnt for grims revolting posts.

grim...dredd is not an acronym u gay moron...i see yr grasp on popular culture is as poor as yr grasp on politics n that u dont know who cop judge n executioner dredd is sorta helps me determine yr age thats for sure...i believe yr the gay moron who shares much in common with that fuckin conservative family...not least of all yr misogyny...n i would kill u all if u had my way

cut the pc crap n grims attitudes toward the fairer sex means they would be perfect role models for any future john jrs or rickys or randys or coys...that feminist wasnt the only person foolish enough to politicise this thread...their gayass anti feminist mantras n grade 1 understanding of "liberal" or "libertarian" has no place here either...is the pc crap of pc crap meant to be ironic or is he just fuckin stupid n as gay as the homo loser he defended...the mind also boggles when we have neoliberalism at the helm of the market the right defends so fuckin proudly at the expense of those who r abused n exploited for profits only to have some stupid rightwing faggot say he hates the liberalism or libertarianism that informs this ammoral capitalist ideology...this system at its most unconcionable even sexualises underage girls to market g strings to girls as young as six n yet one of its defenders expects me to believe he gives a shit and has the conviction to try to rescue someone like sylvia likens...total bull fuckin shit...u ppl accommodate this sort of sick abuse every fuckin day just as long as there is capital to be made...pc is a homo douchebag who doesnt even know wtf he is talkin bout when talkin bout his own political allegiances...liberalism and libertarianism are not antonyms for "feminism" or "leftism" or wtf eva cos despite his gayass remarks lib ideologies coexist with n support the objectives of the market...u deserve to die like yr bf.

that is...theyre not synonyms rather theyre actually antonymous with lib ideologies.

i notice there is a picture o mccain at the peak of the page...that ammoral douchebag knows all about neo liberalism...good luck allowin yr country to go to hell even more by electin that fuckin clown...the usa deserves him n his gay party.

as long as u elect republican homos who enact laws like those in maryland which let rapists go free yr whole constituency is as caring as the baniszewski clan.

wow dredd, i am glad that they teach you stupid ass non-americans how to properly read. i said i like the way you tried to turn my name into an acronym and then i turned your faggot name into one. learn to fucking read you dumbass piece of shit, did your parents forget to teach you that as well as boys are supposed to be chasing after each other as well. because you seem to act like you like the man meat as well, always going off about some dude and their bf, whats the matter, yours dump you for someone better. and if by your stupid name you mean judge dredd, you really are a retard because that movie sucked ass, stallone wasn't at his best in that crappy ass movie. what country are you in that is ssssoooo mmmmmuuuuuuucccchhhhhh better than the fucking usa, huh? why don't you go off and hang out with your friend that i finally fucking ran off and don't forget to write to your favorite baniszewski's as well. because if i want an eye for an eye, i can damn well think that and your dumbass won't change my fucking mind, like i said earlier, go back to fucking school retard, you might fucking learn something damn douchebad loser.

I am appalled! I am appalled at what happened to Sylvia Marie Likens. I am also appalled at the way Grim, Tolegirl and a few others have turned this entire blog that should be focused on Sylvia Marie Likens...into a moronic battlefield. If you want to continue your back and forth banter please take it somewhere else. Or shut your word holes! You are both showing just how truly intelligent you are and that you both live productive lives...

Hi, everybody, today I’ve got a question about the trial (I’m not a US-citizen and I find legal procedure sometimes quite confusing): Dean states that prosecution and defence each got granted 20 peremptory challenges. In the case of the defence, would that be 20 per lawyer or 20 in total? The latter, since there were 5 defendants, would have meant 4 each. Thanks, Kathleen

Kathleen, I can see where you are heading but it must have been 20 in total. And it actu-ally is a lot less unbalanced than it sounds, because prosecution, too, needed to divide their strategy between 5 defendants. Meaning whatever went for John would have applied for Coy and Ricky but not to Paula, and Paula was different from Gertrude, and Gertrudes own children were different from Coy and Ricky. See? Another thing is, defence wasn’ t restricted to peremptory challenges. If they gave reasons for refusing a potential juror they could, if they liked, exhaust the whole panel and the next one and the one after that. All it would have cost was time (and the taxpayers’s money) but the worst that could have hap-pened was the judge yelling. (Which Saul Rabb did anyway, right?) Hope that helps, Lizzie

People, Please stop trying to make sense of the State of Indiana's approach to justice. Although Indiana heighbors progressive states like Ohio, they are still very 'jesusbilly' in their ways of thinking, even at the State and municipal levels. Please understand that Gertie told the parole board that she had no remorse and even stated at the time of her her release in 1985that "Sylvia needed to be punished", BUT, she also said the magic Indiana tag phrase, "I love jesus". The people of the State of Indiana put way to much stock in their imaginary super hero (you know, the one who brought Gramma Betty to a better place, and will reunite you with her someday in a happy place), while completely disregarding justice, fairness and common sense in the proccess. Welcome to the Heartland!! In God we trust!!

One more thing, jumping back a few posts to the guy who was upset that whenever something bad happens, people blame God.Well Sir, If I was not an athiest you can bet the ass of sweet baby jesus that I would be blaming God!! If you had a chance to stop the torture of Sylvia, would you have stopped it? well, God (the ever-powerful guy who looks over everyone and has a plan, yeah, that asshole)did have the power (according to Christians) and chose to sit on his dead ass and do nothing. Sorry bout' your god but I tend to think that a temp from Express Personel would have done a better job.

Hello again,This is Sarah. I posted here because of my sincere desire to help bring peace to such a tragic tale. And hopefully her story will enlighten people to the fact that child abuse is very much a part of human lives. A man in austria was just found guilty of keeping his children in a basement for 17yrs. Very disturbing.

Even more disturbing is the back and forth attacks from some of your blogers. Are they from some middle school? They curse and call names like children. Have they no pride? No shame? No feeling of empathy for what has happened to this young child?

Is it really so important that you be 'right'? Right fighters seem to be so insecure. They HAVE to be right. Their way is the right way. And such language! I'm no prude, but when we are speaking of such a serrious topic. How can all of you who participate in this childishness, keep going on? I truly think that you do not care about what happened to Sylvia (if you do it is mild) because you have invested WAY too much time arguing back and forth to the point that everyone is bored of it.

Let just say (for argument sake)...all of you are right!

Now....can you all go on from there? Have a heart? Put your anger down and lift up your spirit. Lift it out of the gutter?Everyone....a little more humanity please?My heart goes out to all those children who have been abused, tortured, neglected, harmed, ignored, starved, etc.

I send you all here love and light in hopes we can unite, instead of fight. And maybe, just maybe we can reach out and help prevent, detect...child abuse.

Kaptain Kebo ... Gertrud said she felt no remorse AND that Sylvia needed to punished ??? And STILL she was released??? Am I mad or was the parole board or is there something I miss about the USA? Or parts of it? Or certain aspects? I don't doubt your word, but are you sure, sure, sure about your source? Greetings, Kathleen

Hi Kathleen, Yes, my sources are acurate. Up until Gerties death she never once showed any remourse for what she did to that girl. She did tell the parole board that she was to sick and drugged up to know what was happening in her home, she could not control her kids, and for that "I take responsability". But she always denied any involvment in the actual crime and continued to state that Sylvia "needed to be punished", even after her release. Now, those of us who have read the cout transcripts know this to be rubbish, But Kathleen, in Indiana only God can judge, and Gertie told the parole board that she loved God, end of story.FUN FACT: Smoking a joint in Indiana is illeagal, smoke a joint in Indiana within 500 feet of a church and it automatically becomes a felony. Welcome to the Heartland Kathleen, home of the Indy 500 and home of the single digit I.Q.Thanks for caring about Syvia!! and by the way FUCK GOD IN THE ASS!! Kaptain Kebo

By the way, the Christians out their who never want to BLAME their God for watching this happen, are always the first to THANK their God when something great happens. So God is responsible for all good things (because of his unlimited power), but never responsible for bad things (hey, he's only God)Fuck Off, KK

A few posts back, someone asked about postings by Banishewski or Hubbard offspring and Paula’s whereabouts. There is one blog, but I forgot the details, where someone claimed to be a relation of Coy’s gave out to people for dirtying Coy’s name. They referred to him as “a loving dad and granddad”. On a memory blog dedicated to Sylvia someone who knew Jenny as a grown-up woman – that was posted shortly after her death - de-scribes Jenny’s second marriage as having been “exceptionally happy” which, of course, was the best news one could hope for but made it all the more sad for her widower. The one about Coy is most certainly a fake. If you google using these expressions, you should come upon them eventually. And on this very blog here there are two posts, one by some-one who claimed to be one of Leroy New’s daughters and gave strange hints as to things Jenny allegedly admitted, and one by a woman who met Shirley B. once. This last one strikes me as both genuine and in a way well-meaning, but a bit thoughtless: The writer reveals the first name Shirley took for herself AND a lot of details about her life after the trial which is a bit unfair – after all, Shirley at the time was only 10 at the time, and it ‘s up to her to decide how much she wants to tell about herself. (I will admit, though, that I WAS fascinated. We all have a bit of voyeurism in us.) As to Paula – what do you want to know that for? Kindly remember that she has children and by now possibly grandchildren who have not done a thing to anyone and any exposure of Paula would expose them as well. And if Paula changed her name – I’m sure she did – and if her physical appearance has changed even half as much as Gertrudes did, It’s possible that her family, or some of them, never even knew who she is. To find out because the public rounded in on her, would be a terrible way to find out. Greetings, Kathleen

Thank you for the wonderful information Kathleen! I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I must say that I do disagree with the fact that Paula should not be exposed. Due to her part in thie crimes against Sylvia, coupled with her age at the time of the crime (she was a pregnant young woman, who killed somebody for kicks) their is no doubt that Paula, along with John Jr. and Coy, were never properly held accountable for their crimes, due to the fact that they occured 'God's country' You must understand that by Indiana law 'God had a plan for Sylvia', and Gertie and the boys had no control over it. Anyway, to expose Paula to her communitie would at least serve as some form of punishment for her part. I feel that all of her grandkids should know of such a severe mental illness and potentially dangerous monster 'hiding' within the community. You see, when as a young adult you make desicion to torture and watch be tortured another innocent human being, at that moment you deserve at the very least to be branded as 'a person who tortured somebody to death in a horrible, painful way', not only to her grandkids but to her entire community. In my book that does not even begin to satisfy the justice that was never properly served in this completely unacceptable case of misjustice.

I must say I agree in part with what kaptain kebo said.Paula tortured Sylvia. I fear she may visit this evil on her own children and/or grandchildren. Someone should check and make sure.Exposing her to public ridicule would serve no purpose. But a good mental evaluation may put her where she belongs, or prove that she is no longer a torturer. Either way....someone needs to find out. If anyone truly knows...let me know. Thanks

I have to say something, I don't know how old these post are, today is June 21, 2008. I recently saw the movie-- broke my heart. I wanted all of those involved to feel real pain. It is hard to say that. I try to not be so cruel myself, but I feel that way. MAY ONLY CONCERN IS that while Gertrude and her children did unthinkable things. I am so sad about the violence I feel, and the fact that one writer wanted CHILDREN of the guilty party to be tortured. That would be like it all happening again to Sylvie. That statement I read scared me. Sylvie was innocent, the children of the quilty ones will suffer enough in their lifetime. I don't think harm should come to those innocents, but I do wish I could get a hold of one of the actual monsters that did that.

There is so much hate generated because of the horrible crime. Lets try not to hate the innocents.

Thank you for listening, reading, whatever. Please be happy now Sylvie. To all others, hear now, please god let us change, so this never happens again.

As far as the Baniszewski's current whereabouts, Paula was last known to be living in Iowa where she spends her time drinking and cillecting welfare. Stephanie is in the small town of Floral City, Florida and has no immediate plans of torturing any children as she has found God again, she likes to talk about how she is the only one who 'thought' about helping Sylvia while she was being burned, tortured, carved on and forced to eat poop. Coy Hubbard has white trash offspring in the Beech Grove, Indy area who are sure to be tying up the court and welfare system for years to come. Thank God that Gertie, John, Coy, and Gerties young love Richard Hobbs have all passed. We can only hope that the other ones die soon and that it is a slow and painful proccess for them and their families. I would love to locate and expose the parole board members who voted to free Gertie.

Some of you have read the trial transcripts, right? (What do I have to do to get access to these?)Here's the question: Dean in his book states that Sylvia not only was still alive when they brought her up the stairs to the second floor and spoke "I wish my daddy were here", but that, after she had been brought upstairs (even after the bath?), responded once more to Stephanie's efforts to revive her. Most people including Kate Millett seem to think she died long before, in the basement. Where does that confusion come from? Thanks and Greetings, as always, Kathleen

There's something I forgot last time: I have to correct my opinion that Paula should not be exposed. Because what Sarah and Kaptain Kebo said is right, she could well be violent towards her own children / grandchildren OR other people of her community and therefore should be closely watched. Especially if she has a drinking problem. But I just know what everybody does: Iowa, farm, two children (By the way, does that include baby Gertrude who was born during the trial? Or was she adopted?) Greetings!