Dow, you are certainly free to criticize this page or any other, I just don't like the scattershot nature of the things you say. I'll argue with you on the point of this Südpfalz page because you have a specific point and maybe we can talk without throwing in too many side issues. (I'm going to ignore all the "you people"/"you folks" talk).

This particular area page is not pretending to know anything about the climbing routes in the area. It shows maps, talks about the country side, and lists summits and their elevations. It's actually talking about the area from the point of view of a hiker, and in reading it I don't see any attempts to usurp the role of a knowledgeable rock climber in that context.

Now, as a climber myself, would I like to see an area page that focuses on the climbing routes? Sure! For example I'd like to know the "5 star" climbs in a given subarea. Gangolf isn't going to be able to provide that, and he doesn't even try. He did NOT create "climbing based content/beta for the areas I climb" nor did he contaminate "first person/first hand climbing contributions" with "observations from folks who have not climbed the objective."

It's an area page, not a summit or a route page. It's written by someone who hiked around the area a lot. Aside from mentioning that it's popular with climbers, nothing this hiker did is so risible as you intimate.

Finally, did he obscure content from real climbers, by virtue of his enlightened position on the elf staff? No, he didn't commit that crime either.

I can attest from personal experience, that when Gangolf made an Area page for the Wilder Kaiser mountains, known for the technical climbing (as well as their hiking), he asked some climbers, me included to share ownership of the page in the hope we would contribute some good technical stuff. I imagine this Südpfalz page will go the same way. Somebody knowledgeable about the technical routes will eventually come along and you'll eventually see more of the kind of information you want to see about rope lengths, protection, raptor restrictions, whatever.

You are a highly productive individual on the site. Your contributions serve the technical climber, and very well at that. The hiker? Not so much. And that's fine.

Dow Williams wrote:If the site was designed to be more dynamic and random=interesting, it would go a long way of eliminating the items you state above and maybe real sport enthusiast participation would at least rise to some previous level if not surpass it.

Last I checked this site was suppose to be something different than wikipedia. Obviously it is not.

The grasp of what wikipedia IS is not understood, obviously. The day this site goes wiki would be the day it dies a slow death, IMO.

This site is for ALL to use however they want to, and for ALL who wish to contribute to do so, in ALL categories. I thought the front page has pages, routes, images, trip reports, mountains, ranges, etc. ALL of the relevant topics. At least it looks like that to me. I was unaware that this site was so limited to only expert, professional level, sponsored climbers.

just $.02 from a random, lowly hiker

“Hitler did not have to destroy democracy; he merely took advantage of the decay of democracy and at the critical moment obtained the support of many to whom, though they detested Hitler, he yet seemed the only man strong enough to get things done.”

borutbk wrote:The rule (ethic!) is that one posts only Rock/Mountain pages and Route pages for stuff one has climbed. That's the rule, and everyone should stick to it. The exceptions like K2 were already discussed.

“Hitler did not have to destroy democracy; he merely took advantage of the decay of democracy and at the critical moment obtained the support of many to whom, though they detested Hitler, he yet seemed the only man strong enough to get things done.”

Who is responsible for posting the items on the front page anyway? Any particular elf? I think it was discussed here once, but can't remember.

I'm beginning to think this is really about the points and the REI discount associated with them

“Hitler did not have to destroy democracy; he merely took advantage of the decay of democracy and at the critical moment obtained the support of many to whom, though they detested Hitler, he yet seemed the only man strong enough to get things done.”

borutbk wrote:The rule (ethic!) is that one posts only Rock/Mountain pages and Route pages for stuff one has climbed. That's the rule, and everyone should stick to it. The exceptions like K2 were already discussed.

And as MVS quite patiently explained, Gangolf did not violate it.

Yes he did. He only clambed some of the rocks he posted many pages for.

Borut's rule: You may not post a regional page unless you have climbed every single bump in the region. Sihler, start deleting. Every single regional page on SP needs to come down.