Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

Hello everybody,
I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and
Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their
participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO
of Microsoft.

They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively
ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some
nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be
interested to participate in this project.

The steps for getting into the project are:

* Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
trademark holders for this step)
* modifying our docker container a little bit
* pushing it into the microsoft appstore

So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?

Here are some pros and contras:

pro:
- CentOS and Ubuntu are there too
- Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux
- might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in
general)
- Nice way to test our docker image in production
- People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch
Linux at work as well
- More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?

contras:
- Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain)
- More Newbies?
- Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it)
- If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?

I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :)
I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week.
I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

> Hello everybody,
> I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and
> Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their
> participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO
> of Microsoft.
>
> They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively
> ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some
> nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be
> interested to participate in this project.
>
> The steps for getting into the project are:
>
> * Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
> want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
> trademark holders for this step)
> * modifying our docker container a little bit
> * pushing it into the microsoft appstore
>
> So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
>
> Here are some pros and contras:
>
> pro:
> - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too
> - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux
> - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in
> general)
> - Nice way to test our docker image in production
> - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch
> Linux at work as well
> - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
>
> contras:
> - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain)
> - More Newbies?
> - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it)
> - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
>
>
> I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :)
> I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week.
> I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
>
> So deadline is 2018-02-7
>
>
> -- Chris

This has come up before, my personal preference is that if you want Arch is
WSL, go ahead and install Arch in WSL. It's not difficult by just using the
bootstrap image. IMO, this would be similar to us supporting Manjaro, Antergos,
or any other automatic, pre-configured and setup system.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 03:09:16PM -0600, Public mailing list for Arch Linux development wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:00:28 +0100
> Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hello everybody,
> > I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and
> > Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their
> > participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO
> > of Microsoft.
> >
> > They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively
> > ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some
> > nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be
> > interested to participate in this project.
> >
> > The steps for getting into the project are:
> >
> > * Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
> > want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
> > trademark holders for this step)
> > * modifying our docker container a little bit
> > * pushing it into the microsoft appstore
> >
> > So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
> >
> > Here are some pros and contras:
> >
> > pro:
> > - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too
> > - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux
> > - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in
> > general)
> > - Nice way to test our docker image in production
> > - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch
> > Linux at work as well
> > - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
> >
> > contras:
> > - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain)
> > - More Newbies?
> > - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it)
> > - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
> >
> >
> > I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :)
> > I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week.
> > I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
> >
> > So deadline is 2018-02-7
> >
> >
> > -- Chris
>
> This has come up before, my personal preference is that if you want Arch is
> WSL, go ahead and install Arch in WSL. It's not difficult by just using the
> bootstrap image. IMO, this would be similar to us supporting Manjaro, Antergos,
> or any other automatic, pre-configured and setup system.

The difference would be "it's official". There are Arch Linux WSL
containers at the moment btw:

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 03:09:16PM -0600, Public mailing list for Arch Linux development wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:00:28 +0100
> > Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everybody,
> > > I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and
> > > Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their
> > > participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO
> > > of Microsoft.
> > >
> > > They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively
> > > ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some
> > > nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be
> > > interested to participate in this project.
> > >
> > > The steps for getting into the project are:
> > >
> > > * Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
> > > want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
> > > trademark holders for this step)
> > > * modifying our docker container a little bit
> > > * pushing it into the microsoft appstore
> > >
> > > So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
> > >
> > > Here are some pros and contras:
> > >
> > > pro:
> > > - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too
> > > - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux
> > > - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in
> > > general)
> > > - Nice way to test our docker image in production
> > > - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch
> > > Linux at work as well
> > > - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
> > >
> > > contras:
> > > - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain)
> > > - More Newbies?
> > > - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it)
> > > - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
> > >
> > >
> > > I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :)
> > > I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week.
> > > I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
> > >
> > > So deadline is 2018-02-7
> > >
> > >
> > > -- Chris
> >
> > This has come up before, my personal preference is that if you want Arch is
> > WSL, go ahead and install Arch in WSL. It's not difficult by just using the
> > bootstrap image. IMO, this would be similar to us supporting Manjaro, Antergos,
> > or any other automatic, pre-configured and setup system.
>
> The difference would be "it's official". There are Arch Linux WSL
> containers at the moment btw:
>
> https://github.com/alwsl/alwsl>
> But it's nothing official.
>

And that's my point, it would be official; and I don't think the
pre-configured, ready-to-to setup is where Arch is in the marketplace, and
shouldn't be. Arch is a niche distro catering to a specific segment, Windows
converts and people that want things easy is not that segment.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

Microsoft started noticing Linux (or rather stopped to fight it so
valiantly) when they realized where the money is. On this ground alone I
don't see a reason to help some corporation in putting our logo on their
website so they can brag how they love Linux now, especially when there
are no real gains for us in all of this.

If you want more technical angle, at least few months ago installing
Arch on WSL required patched glibc. I won't maintain such patches
because of something I completely don't care about. Even if it was
solved since, good luck with debugging all possible heisenbugs that can
be encountered due to sloppy implementation of Linux syscalls on
Windows. If the proposal gets through, I'm not going to spend time on
any of such reports at all, making heavy use of EWONTFIX.

I don't use Windows and I don't care about WSL. Having Docker image
makes sense as it can bring some value for people using different
distributions for development or testing purposes alone. That can't be
said about WSL.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

> They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively
> ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some
> nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be
> interested to participate in this project.
>
> The steps for getting into the project are:
>
> * Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
> want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
> trademark holders for this step)
> * modifying our docker container a little bit
> * pushing it into the microsoft appstore

Setups like this make me uncomfortable for one reason: we would not be
in control of this docker image or its distribution. This officially
endorsed Arch Linux image could be modified in any way Microsoft wants.
I'd be really surprised if we did not grant them this right as part of
agreeing to their appstore terms. Sure, we could notice the changes
eventually and pull back our official endorsement, but would they have
to stop using our trademark the moment we told them to? (That's not
abstract paranoia either: things like this happened with sourceforge
and, well, is Microsoft more trustworthy than Dice? Tough question.)

On the other hand, my profound lack of interest for WSL means I truly
have no idea whether this can be useful for others, so I'll vote blank.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 10:00:28PM +0100, Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public wrote:
> * Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
> want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
> trademark holders for this step)

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

On 01/29/2018 04:00 PM, Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public wrote:
> I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :)
> I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week.
> I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.

I'd like to reiterate what everyone else seems to be saying: WSL is too
fragile to offer real guarantees from our end, and AFAICT you're the
only person who even wants to offer it in the first place. So I'm not
sure what Arch Linux gets out of this.

It seems like the only thing that would actually happen is that
Microsoft gets to advertise that *we* support *them*, and then point
people who complain at you.

Having you "maintain" this, would seem to be a lot more complicated than
maintaining docker or VM images, since both of the latter are at least
compatible with basic things like glibc so only the packaging actually
needs to be maintained. We cannot really say this about WSL, so you
would have to be maintaining [core] as well.

If people really want Arch Linux in WSL, they can do that today. It
works, sort of, but it also pops up odd issues like the aforementioned
glibc stuff. Do you have a plan for how you would work with Microsoft to
get that fixed, without ultimately asking other Devs/TUs to aid in the
process? Because this is the absolute minimum threshold for being able
to actually say that we as a distro support WSL.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

> Hello everybody,
> I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and
> Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their
> participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO
> of Microsoft.
>
> They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively
> ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some
> nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be
> interested to participate in this project.
>
> The steps for getting into the project are:
>
> * Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we
> want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our
> trademark holders for this step)
> * modifying our docker container a little bit
> * pushing it into the microsoft appstore
>
> So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
>
> Here are some pros and contras:
>
> pro:
> - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too
> - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux
> - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in
> general)
> - Nice way to test our docker image in production
> - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch
> Linux at work as well
> - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
>
> contras:
> - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain)
> - More Newbies?
> - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it)
> - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
>

I'd like to give some feedback too. Personally, I love WSL, since I am
stuck with Windows 10 at work and it gives me certain applications I
otherwise don't have.

AFAIK, with the "Fall Creators Update" Version, they updated WSL to only
be available via the appstore and as far as I can see, this makes
installing Arch via other means significantly more difficult.

Right now, I only have experience with the version before the fall
creators update, and that has issues:

* As others mentioned, some glibc functionality relies on certain
clone() flags that WSL did/does not support.
* pacman needs an LD_PRELOAD hack since it insists on using chroot even
without a --root option, but WSL does/did not have chroot.

I would hope they fixed these problems by now, but I did not check yet.

I personally would love to see an official WSL Arch image, since it's
very useful to me. That said, I don't like the way they promote WSL,
because it is Linux the way that wine is Windows (read: it isn't).

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

> Right now, I only have experience with the version before the fall
> creators update, and that has issues:
>
> * As others mentioned, some glibc functionality relies on certain
> clone() flags that WSL did/does not support.
> * pacman needs an LD_PRELOAD hack since it insists on using chroot even
> without a --root option, but WSL does/did not have chroot.

Both are fixed, chroot is supported in the Fall Creators update and the glibc
issues have been fixed since.

The addition of chroot makes it simple to install Arch. Just let it setup
Ubuntu, then use the bootstrap image to install Arch. Copy a couple of dirs in
Windows and you're done.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

Hello everybody,
sorry for the delay. I thought about this a little bit longer and I came
to the conclusion that this project will not work without the full
support of all developers. So I guess, I will inform Microsoft that we
won't participate in their programm. Thanks for the nice and open
discussion.

Re: Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?

On 7 March 2018 at 14:58, Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> sorry for the delay. I thought about this a little bit longer and I came
> to the conclusion that this project will not work without the full
> support of all developers. So I guess, I will inform Microsoft that we
> won't participate in their programm. Thanks for the nice and open
> discussion.

Ahh, too bad I noticed this late. I am one of those forced on to
Windows and it has really taken a toll on my packaging duties.

I would have liked to see this materialize, but I guess the other
suggestion about building off of another image is OK too.