Yesterday, the GOP-controlled Congress passed the tax cut that they had desired so much. President Trump will most assuredly sign it. '

It appears on it's surface to be a pretty blatant attempt to move massive amounts of wealth back into the hands of the rich and super-rich while
offering the middle class and poor virtually nothing by comparison. Independent groups have said that this loss of tax revenue could blow a 1 to 2
TRILLION dollar hole in the deficit which Paul Ryan says will have to be made up by cuts in Medicare, Medicaid and other "entitlements".

It's also very unpopular with various polls putting the support for the bill at just around 35%.

This is all being done because of a lingering belief in the now debunked economic philosophy of supply-side or "trickle down" economics.

Now, clearly my opinion is that this tax bill is bad at best and immoral at worst. But, I'm curious to see what you guys think.

"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the
table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

bopol

Showstopper

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posted on 12-21-2017 at 04:58 PM

I can't figure out how it will only raise the deficit $1-$2T given the extent of the cuts.

Honestly, it isn't playing well because most of the cuts are going to the rich and I think most people now believe that trickle down is BS and
all these cuts do is make the rich richer and does not help the economy or generate larger tax revenues. It also pokes holes in the Republicans are
fiscally conservative and finally, most people don't believe that anymore.

So, I think this will continue to energize the Democratic base while not exciting the Republican base. The only benefit for the Republicans is that
they will get the nice donations to say Democrats are evil, which may not be enough to get Republicans to show up at the mid-terms.

Frankly, it just is more evidence that the Republicans on a national level can't govern.

Pretty accurate sum-up. The wealthiest Americans get enormous handouts (don’t have the numbers handy, but remember reading an analysis that estimated
that something like 80% of the total benefits would go to the top 1%, with 60% going to the top 0.1%), while the rest of us get very small cuts that
for many will become increases after a couple of years.

Meanwhile they can’t (won’t) fund CHIP, eliminated the mechanism that makes the ACA work, and have already come right out and said that their next
targets will be Medicare/Medicaid/social security if/when (spoiler alert: when) this blows up the deficit.

But hey, maybe this’ll be the time trickle-down actually works. /sarcasm

Also, it’s fun how they’ve timed it so that the lower-end will see their increases after the midterms, and much like the Bush tax cuts, the whole
package is set to expire at a point where they’re probably presuming Democrats will be back in power. So look forward to the GOP crying “class
warfare” again in the not-too-distant future.

I'm Cherokee Jack!

bopol

Showstopper

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posted on 12-21-2017 at 07:59 PM

But Jack, I think the whole 'expires when Dems are in charge' is a story that has worn thin. Republicans haven't been fiscally
conservative for the last 40 years and now people are getting it. I think the whole class warfare thing is also getting out of people's minds.

I figure most people are pretty slow in getting things, but millennials are deciding right now that Republicans are full of shit. In ten years,
they'll be in their thirties. In the meantime, older fucks like me (I'm 47) and my elders are the ones raised on that shit will start
hitting SS and Medicare age and start bellyaching that we paid into it our whole lives. Now, I've already given up on Republicans, but most of
my old fuck whitey friends haven't. Fuck with their retirement and they will though.

It's a bomb and I fear that the Republicans will have to blow this up to regain power in the future (talking like in the late 20s), which may
make them a reasonable party again (or alternatively and even possible now, something steps up in their place).

I only signed up so I can read the forum.

Paddlefoot

Rocco Rock of Jabroni

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posted on 12-22-2017 at 06:08 AM

It would be a massive error to assume that they care at all in the slightest as to whether or not the math works out. These are creatures that happily
took away the usual deductions for teachers who pay out of pocket for school supplies because the state is too busy playing Austerity Hero to fund
education properly. Do you really think that anyone who would do something like gives a shit about a trillion-dollar "rounding error" when these
cuts result in the collapse of the federal system of government?

They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. They don't deserve to start again, and I won't allow them.
- David-8

anglefan85

Man of a Thousand Holds

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posted on 12-22-2017 at 05:28 PM

Not to mention the fact that this entire idea is based upon the idea that those corporations will will use that money and invest it back into the
economy, thus creating more jobs and higher wages.

However, there are no incentives in the bill to make them want to hire or retrain workers. There are instead incentives that favor investing in
automated workers, which will obviously result in a loss of American jobs.

On the negative side, this is gonna absolutely devastate the economy. On the positive side, my prediction of a coal miner assassinating Trump might
come true.

The WWE: Where no one wins, unless you like Cena, in which case you are a sad little fanboy who will never get laid, but we are happy to take your
money away-Moosehead Jack

"She is an estrogen molotov cocktail. It'd be in your best interest not to piss her off."- My thoughts on Firewoman

"Kurt Angle is like a living vortex of the surreal. On the off chance he's not doing, saying or thinking crazy things, people connected to him
act crazy by association, caught in the gravitational pull of his insanity."- Ringout from FAN Forums

CCharger

The Immortal One

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posted on 12-22-2017 at 06:22 PM

quote:Originally posted by anglefan85

On the negative side, this is gonna absolutely devastate the economy. On the positive side, my prediction of a coal miner assassinating Trump might
come true.

Yes. But Trump and the GOPer's will find some way to blame Obama. And of course the only way to fix that broken economy? More corporate tax
cuts!

FDR is spinning in his grave.

"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the
table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

BBMN

HAVES A CROOKED DICK!! !

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posted on 12-22-2017 at 07:19 PM

But AT&T is giving out extra bonuses! Clearly trickle-down is just too far advanced of a concept for you guys to get.

All I want for Christmas is for Trump, Pence, Ryan, and McConnell to all have heart attacks. That and an Xbox One S.

CCharger

The Immortal One

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posted on 12-22-2017 at 07:40 PM

GOP: "Look, don't worry about the rich getting most of the benefits, you guys. Remember what's important...baking cakes for the gays and
black guys kneeling for the national anthem."

"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the
table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

bopol

Showstopper

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posted on 12-23-2017 at 12:55 AM

quote:Originally posted by CCharger
GOP: "Look, don't worry about the rich getting most of the benefits, you guys. Remember what's important...baking cakes for the gays and
black guys kneeling for the national anthem."

You know, I bet there is an opportunity for someone to make a professional football league for conservatives right now.

said one crazy old nut from the Connecticut.

I only signed up so I can read the forum.

Paddlefoot

Rocco Rock of Jabroni

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posted on 12-23-2017 at 01:00 AM

quote:Originally posted by bopol

quote:Originally posted by CCharger
GOP: "Look, don't worry about the rich getting most of the benefits, you guys. Remember what's important...baking cakes for the gays and
black guys kneeling for the national anthem."

You know, I bet there is an opportunity for someone to make a professional football league for conservatives right now.

said one crazy old nut from the Connecticut.

Hopefully FOX Sports gets to televise the games. Ought to fit into the wheelhouse of an all-around piece of shit like Joe Buck quite well.

Think of the meta of it all when it comes to the NFL versus Trump. To a man the NFL owners are among the greediest and evilest of misanthropes anyone
could ever find. Yet even they for the most part can't get along with someone as horrid as Donald Trump. Like, fuck, man.

They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. They don't deserve to start again, and I won't allow them.
- David-8

Katie Vick killer

The Rowdy One

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posted on 12-25-2017 at 01:26 AM

So what time do you think the ghosts starting visiting Trump last night?

BBMN

HAVES A CROOKED DICK!! !

Posts 2507
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Mood: SJW

posted on 1-10-2018 at 01:11 AM

Quick Questions Go!

When does the tax plan take effect?

What would be the benefits, and negatives, for a married man with two kids, and a wife that does not work, that earns roughly $55k?

One of my good good friends from forever ago voted for Trump and pretty much did so based purely on economic/tax reasoning. I haven't kept too
close to this story because ultimately I just expect to become angry. My friend brought up "We'll see how much Trump's plan helps me
starting with this pay period..." Wasn't sure if it would help him at all, and if it has any impact, when said impact would happen.

He seems to be thinking he will get more money on his check starting right now. He also mentioned that under Obama care he was due to have a massive
increase in health plan rates and was pretty happy that it wasn't going to happen due to signing up with his employer's plan...

Without knowing all the details of his income and various deductions, my best guess this guy is going to get back around $2,000.

quote:One of my good good friends from forever ago voted for Trump and pretty much did so based purely on economic/tax reasoning. I haven't
kept too close to this story because ultimately I just expect to become angry. My friend brought up "We'll see how much Trump's plan
helps me starting with this pay period..." Wasn't sure if it would help him at all, and if it has any impact, when said impact would
happen.

It's also important to remember and remind him that it isn't Trump's tax plan at all. Tax policy is set by Congress, not the
president. So while Trump may have supported it and signed it into law, it was the GOP-led Congress who did the dirty work.

[/quote

"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the
table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

DKBroiler

SpeciASSl CUMedian

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posted on 1-10-2018 at 10:58 PM

I’m one of the few middle class people it stands to benefit (I should get a few extra grand out of it each year) but it’s still an awful plan. In
roughly 4 to 6 years we’re gonna have a massive recession. And it will happen just in time for the conservatives to blame liberals who had nothing to
do with it.

Best advice I can give, find a good job and keep it as long as you can. Save every penny.

Reigning, Defending, Undisputed, 0 Time Award Winner

CCharger

The Immortal One

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posted on 1-10-2018 at 11:59 PM

The deceit in this plan is poor and middle class people WILL see money back. $500 to $4000 in some cases. That seems like a good deal, right?

But then you see folks (and corporations) who are already filthy, stinking rich could see returns in the millions of dollars. The Waltons (of Walmart
fame) could see a savings of $46 BILLION.

Essentially, they are giving MASSIVE tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires while tossing relative crumbs to the poor and working class and
expecting us to be OK with it.

It is a reverse redistribution of money.

"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the
table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

"the new tax plan will take effect on January 1, 2018. Americans won't see the change to their tax returns until spring 2019 — when they file
taxes for 2018."

I believe that you should start seeing the difference in your pay check in February.

I know a guy that works in clinical psychology who got his first paycheck in direct deposit today. He found out that he's set to make $200 less
per paycheck.

The WWE: Where no one wins, unless you like Cena, in which case you are a sad little fanboy who will never get laid, but we are happy to take your
money away-Moosehead Jack

"She is an estrogen molotov cocktail. It'd be in your best interest not to piss her off."- My thoughts on Firewoman

"Kurt Angle is like a living vortex of the surreal. On the off chance he's not doing, saying or thinking crazy things, people connected to him
act crazy by association, caught in the gravitational pull of his insanity."- Ringout from FAN Forums

williamssl

Steers and Queers

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posted on 1-11-2018 at 08:28 PM

I don't disbelieve that people will begin seeing the impacts of tax reform in their paychecks as early as February.

I don't disbelieve that a large chunk of people are going to be surprised by what they see - negative instead of positive, smaller positive
instead of bigger positive, etc.

I don't disbelieve that your friend's first net paycheck is different from what he saw at the end of the year.

I do disbelieve, however, that the net difference he is seeing is directly attributable to tax reform impacts coming into play so quickly.

My first paycheck is different from what I saw in Q4 for several reasons:

1) I had maxed out on paying social security tax sometime in late 2017 such that that withholding wasn't happening for the last few months.
With the new year, its' back.

2) The cost of my health benefits went up. No surprise there. That's been a "bank on it" event for the past 10 years.

3) The max annual contribution to 401k went up $500 from $18k to $18.5k, and I adjusted my % contribution to hit the new max so a little more is
coming out of my paycheck each time.

etc.

I think your friend's reaction is false attribution to the personal impacts of tax reform and, frankly, a chicken little reaction that
prematurely fuels the worries people have.

Don't Mess With Texas

Count Zero

The Great One

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posted on 1-12-2018 at 03:56 AM

Even though it may be a "sky is falling" over-reaction, those kind of reactions are seemingly exactly what drives the Voting Public?

People (writ large) tend to vote "emotionally" instead of "logically".

BBMN

HAVES A CROOKED DICK!! !

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posted on 1-14-2018 at 03:44 PM

So basically even if my friend gets a little more in take-home pay, it's just table scraps, and the big winners are the 1% as expected?

Basically, yeah. In terms of income, we’re a pretty middle class household with two kids, and I expect to see our tax bill decrease a bit (at least
temporarily). That said, I’d gladly give back the meager savings we see if it meant that children could have healthcare, Medicare/Medicaid/SocSec
could be kept intact and we weren’t happily risking the economy falling off a cliff again in the next year or two so that the richest of the rich can
get billions more back.

I'm Cherokee Jack!

OOMike

The Great One

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posted on 1-15-2018 at 02:08 PM

quote:Originally posted by Cherokee Jack
Basically, yeah. In terms of income, we’re a pretty middle class household with two kids, and I expect to see our tax bill decrease a bit (at least
temporarily). That said, I’d gladly give back the meager savings we see if it meant that children could have healthcare, Medicare/Medicaid/SocSec
could be kept intact and we weren’t happily risking the economy falling off a cliff again in the next year or two so that the richest of the rich can
get billions more back.

^This

2017 where Nazis are defended and being against Fascism is a bad thing.

Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic – Tryon Edwards

Never let the facts interfere with a good rant.

The only OO columnist that has never written a column.

CCharger

The Immortal One

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posted on 1-15-2018 at 03:42 PM

Yup. Jack nailed it.

Essentially, the tax plan is based on the philosophy of supply-side economics. That is, give massive tax and regulation breaks to billionaires and
corporations ("job creators") so that they will have more money for capital investments. With million dollars of extra money, the thinking goes,
that money will spur innovation and production resulting in brand new jobs along with raises for the existing employees.

The last 35 year of American history have essentially been an experiment in supply-side economics and neoliberalism. Both political parties adhere to
this philosophy with minor deviations.

This experiment has been an abject failure. Supply-side economics simply doesn't work. Billionaires and corporations don't take this extra
money and reinvest it in their employees. They pocket it. They get richer and their employees stay the same. Over time, this results in massive
income and wealth inequality. You have the super-rich ("the 1%") and everyone else. Real wages (that is adjusted for inflation) have remained
essentially flat for 30 years. Supply-side works in the macro (stock market, GDP), but fails in the micro (workers laid off, pensions abandoned,
unions busted).

This tax plan is a massive redistribution of wealth from the poor and middle class to the super-rich, and in order to pay for it, the GOP will have to
gut welfare programs like Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and other programs - what is called "austerity". Again, it will be the most vulnerable in our
society who suffer most while the elites live like the French aristocracy circa 1780.

"I don't watch the show, Paul. Why would I watch the show?"

"I hate it when I'm watching along at home and I'm envisioning certain common sense things, and WWE just leaves all that money on the
table to do something that will have no result other than send viewers looking for something else."

-- The Rick

Paddlefoot

Rocco Rock of Jabroni

Posts 10512
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Mood: criminal record soon

posted on 1-15-2018 at 04:14 PM

Just as a matter of interest what are you guys usually paying on average for your yearly health insurance? Did Obamacare cause you to have an increase
in price or a decrease? I'm guessing that whatever tax decrease you now see gets wiped out by your health care costs for anyone who
doesn't have employer-provided coverage.

They are a dying species, grasping for resurrection. They don't deserve to start again, and I won't allow them.
- David-8