Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:04 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:28 amPosts: 296

Had a similar experience in 2007 with my first outing on a Vegas, crashed lines wrapped round bar end and then aggressive down looping.

Like Mr Moon got dragged backwards on the leash, water bow waving over my back and head struggling to breath, thought I was going to drown too, but luckily for me the kite hit a groyne on the beach long enough for me to quick release.

Mr moon is right you need it clipped on your side of your dominant hand, I think having it clipped on the front risks the bow wave going down your throat quicker.

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:11 pm

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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pmPosts: 2985Location: The Naki

wow. thats my worst nightmare. Great to see you survived.

i kite in high winds, solo in remote locations. i'm more an more worried about the worst case scenario.

I have not hooked in the donkey dick on a couple of occassions and had the bar ripped out of my hands and the kite fall on the safety. on one of those occasions it kept looping for what ever reason. but it wasn't a powered loop and i was able to release easily and swim in.

I have my chicken loop qr on my right hand side and my leash qr on my left side d loop on the harness. .

what about having 2 QR's on the leash line? one above the other. if one doesn't work then the other might.

I also wonder about a sacrificial part on a leash line? ie something designed to fail if more than X kg's of force is applied to it?. It would work in normal qr safety line situations but if you saw full power on the leash it would snap and release the kite?

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:41 pm

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Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:05 amPosts: 341

ronnie wrote:

I'm all for people reading reports like yours as it does remind us that we need to avoid getting into situations we cant get out of.

Yours began with equipment failure and didn't end right due to a bad choice of safety setup.

You are quite right Ronnie.. that's why I've spent some time publishing my experience, I feel the need of helping as many people I can. Today I've seen one of my buddies on the beach who after knowing in detail my story, still clips his leash to the back of the harness.. I was shocked!

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:18 pm

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Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:05 amPosts: 341

Hi guys thank you so much for reading my post and for your support, glad you all interested in safety.

I think the safest set up would be:

1. Kite leash with double release (one on each end), it would be too expensive for the brands to make them so let's go custom.2. Clip the leash on the front or side. Mike I agree with you, I guess the drag would be better sideways as opposed to front. I was dragged sideways as the leash came off from the side of the harness somehow and I was holding myself onto it to avoid being dragged backwards. I wanted to try and see where I was heading too, although with so much splashing was too hard. When I then try to turn backwards to drink less water it was too late.. it's the last thing I remember before drowning.3. A custom knife like the one RobertoVillate showed and a couple of hook knifes in different locations.4. The choice of safety system of course... and kite! Some kites like the RRD Obsessions don't really depower when released, some of them flag powerless like the North 5 lines for example, others loose power and drop in the water...

By the way, today I made my return to kiting, on my local beach! It was psychologically hard, but I did very well. I've worn my helmet (and this time not for a GoPro video!), and went out to test a Cabrinha 9m Nomad with the IDS safety system, which due to the fact of not having a leash (there is instead a double release on the chicken loop) made me feel fairly safer. I feel alive and happy again, although for some reason doesn't feel the same as before, is that my second life or the Nomad???

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:24 am

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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pmPosts: 2985Location: The Naki

mr moon wrote:

I feel alive and happy again, although for some reason doesn't feel the same as before, is that my second life or the Nomad???

I have felt like that before. Though i have never died and been bought back to life. I can only try and imagine what that is like.

Any way to feel the greatest joy i feel you have to surrender to the "now" and ride/fly with no thought to circumstance. To enter that zen like meditation state were its just see and do with thinking about kids, mortgages, death,,, etc,

That state creates the most joy. I also find you need to be pushing or near a limit to progress in some manner to get that extra sense of achievement.

So when you have a scare. You can ride with the constant fear and step back to ride well within your limits. Its simply not as much fun!

2. Clip the leash on the front or side. Mike I agree with you, I guess the drag would be better sideways as opposed to front. I was dragged sideways as the leash came off from the side of the harness somehow and I was holding myself onto it to avoid being dragged backwards. I wanted to try and see where I was heading too, although with so much splashing was too hard. When I then try to turn backwards to drink less water it was too late.. it's the last thing I remember before drowning.

By the way, today I made my return to kiting, on my local beach! It was psychologically hard, but I did very well. I've worn my helmet (and this time not for a GoPro video!), and went out to test a Cabrinha 9m Nomad with the IDS safety system, which due to the fact of not having a leash (there is instead a double release on the chicken loop) made me feel fairly safer. I feel alive and happy again, although for some reason doesn't feel the same as before, is that my second life or the Nomad???

Hooking the leash to the side might be better than the rear, but I have seen the leash pull waist harnesses around (rotated around the body) too. I suppose this could happen with attaching to the front as well...but I think it would be less likely. The bottom line...be prepared for the worst.

The other thing that I try to teach students is IF they ever experience an out of control kite dragging them thru the water it is better to "go with the flow" and try to body surf a little on your stomach if possible. This will take a little tension off the lines and will also be less likely to pull you under water compared to trying to resist the pull. Doing this will also conserve some energy and might give you a little time to think and get your plan in order to cut lines/release the kite. Whenever something goes wrong with most beginners, and even with experienced riders, there is a tendency to "fight" the pull of the kite which can just make it worse. I know this is a hard thing to condition yourself to, but it's something to think about.

Mr. Moon, I'm glad to hear you got "back on the horse" quickly, although I can understand the trepidation. But in most situations like this it is better to face your anxiety and get back into it...and in any case I think that kitesurfing (for most of us) is a very healing activity because it makes us focus our energy, pumps us with adrenaline and endorphins...and speaking from my own personal experience being able to kite again after a life threatening illness has been almost miraculously invigorating for me. If I could bottle this "effect" and market it to the world I'd be hanging with guys like Bill Gates and Richard Branson...lol.

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:03 am

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Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:05 amPosts: 341

robertovillate wrote:

mr moon wrote:

2. Clip the leash on the front or side. Mike I agree with you, I guess the drag would be better sideways as opposed to front. I was dragged sideways as the leash came off from the side of the harness somehow and I was holding myself onto it to avoid being dragged backwards. I wanted to try and see where I was heading too, although with so much splashing was too hard. When I then try to turn backwards to drink less water it was too late.. it's the last thing I remember before drowning.

By the way, today I made my return to kiting, on my local beach! It was psychologically hard, but I did very well. I've worn my helmet (and this time not for a GoPro video!), and went out to test a Cabrinha 9m Nomad with the IDS safety system, which due to the fact of not having a leash (there is instead a double release on the chicken loop) made me feel fairly safer. I feel alive and happy again, although for some reason doesn't feel the same as before, is that my second life or the Nomad???

Hooking the leash to the side might be better than the rear, but I have seen the leash pull waist harnesses around (rotated around the body) too. I suppose this could happen with attaching to the front as well...but I think it would be less likely. The bottom line...be prepared for the worst.

The other thing that I try to teach students is IF they ever experience an out of control kite dragging them thru the water it is better to "go with the flow" and try to body surf a little on your stomach if possible. This will take a little tension off the lines and will also be less likely to pull you under water compared to trying to resist the pull. Doing this will also conserve some energy and might give you a little time to think and get your plan in order to cut lines/release the kite. Whenever something goes wrong with most beginners, and even with experienced riders, there is a tendency to "fight" the pull of the kite which can just make it worse. I know this is a hard thing to condition yourself to, but it's something to think about.

Mr. Moon, I'm glad to hear you got "back on the horse" quickly, although I can understand the trepidation. But in most situations like this it is better to face your anxiety and get back into it...and in any case I think that kitesurfing (for most of us) is a very healing activity because it makes us focus our energy, pumps us with adrenaline and endorphins...and speaking from my own personal experience being able to kite again after a life threatening illness has been almost miraculously invigorating for me. If I could bottle this "effect" and market it to the world I'd be hanging with guys like Bill Gates and Richard Branson...lol.

Stay safe out there and keep charging.

Thanks mate, that's the way I feel.. But there is too much thinking right now: which gear, which safety systems etc.. Luckily I don't have flashbacks of the accident, and that is a biG advantage for me.

RE: DraggingTo be honest I was dragged from the back / side and to bodysurf I had to pull hard with my left harm on the safety leash. I felt that was the best position to be going, but I was drinking... and lots. The splashes were crazy due to the speed and surf. I am a free diver too with an apnea of 4min indoors and nearly 3 in the sea, and I don't panic. I just can't believe that despite all this and my friendliness with big conditions and big surf I've ended up like that. That's what plays on my head, I had an amazing confidence in the sea and I now have to try to get it back again.

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:23 am

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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:39 pmPosts: 3089

mr moon wrote:

Hi guys thank you so much for reading my post and for your support, glad you all interested in safety.

I think the safest set up would be:

1. Kite leash with double release (one on each end), it would be too expensive for the brands to make them so let's go custom.2. Clip the leash on the front or side. Mike I agree with you, I guess the drag would be better sideways as opposed to front. I was dragged sideways as the leash came off from the side of the harness somehow and I was holding myself onto it to avoid being dragged backwards. I wanted to try and see where I was heading too, although with so much splashing was too hard. When I then try to turn backwards to drink less water it was too late.. it's the last thing I remember before drowning.3. A custom knife like the one RobertoVillate showed and a couple of hook knifes in different locations.4. The choice of safety system of course... and kite! Some kites like the RRD Obsessions don't really depower when released, some of them flag powerless like the North 5 lines for example, others loose power and drop in the water...

By the way, today I made my return to kiting, on my local beach! It was psychologically hard, but I did very well. I've worn my helmet (and this time not for a GoPro video!), and went out to test a Cabrinha 9m Nomad with the IDS safety system, which due to the fact of not having a leash (there is instead a double release on the chicken loop) made me feel fairly safer. I feel alive and happy again, although for some reason doesn't feel the same as before, is that my second life or the Nomad???

Its not possible to eliminate all risk, but you can take away a lot of the risk. If you ever have a serious problem kiting in future, its probably going to be something different. There are many ways for things to go wrong, but you seem to have a good brain for staying calm and thinking of the best way out.

My way would be to ensure I had a good reliable quick release and used the same one for both the primary and secondary. ie. the release to kiteleash and the kiteleash release. Make sure you can operate them and that they work and you wont need a release on the other end of the kiteleash. (it could be very difficult to get to anyway).

Safety systems have a lot of pluses and minuses.

I chose the IDS and like it. Things that can go wrong are little bits of seaweed or algae jamming a pulley or the bridle is long enough that it can get wrapped round a wingtip. The Q/R is good though, so if there is a problem I can go to the leash or lose the kite easily.

To me, that is the key - making the right decision quickly and popping whatever Q/R you need - fast. Things like how many times can a kite loop before it renders the safety system inoperable and things like that can all be part of the decision making process.

Then you need to consider the other risks.The biggest next one for me is line tangles, so reducing the likelyhood (eg. Ocean Rodeo and other companies are trying to reduce things on harnesses that lines can tangle around) and being able to cut free quickly.The ankle tangle is rare, but if you are being pulled hard through the water, its very hard to reach. A looping kite hitting the water, or the kite being left behind by a wave that was pulling it would maybe give the opportunity to get a hook knife with a handle onto the line.

Thing to remember is that we are all going to die sometime and we have a life to live. Dont let the thought of dying stop you living.

There's only so much you can do to reduce risk. Some idiot in a car is more likely to kill any of us perhaps.Once you have done everything within reason to reduce the risk, then make sure you enjoy life.

Post subject: Re: kite looping on deathride: I drowned, died and come back

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:54 am

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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:34 amPosts: 738Location: Netherlands

Mr. Moon thanks for sharing! Great to read that you're back on the water.

Safety issues enough with current gear, it is very difficult to invent a safety system which will work in all possible thinkable situations.The standard usage and instruction vids have nothing to do with reallity, I've found out that several times.I prefer to have the Leash attached at my dominated site a bit frontal (2/3). quick release on both sides is also a nice idea but can be a pain aswel.

A friend of mine had an freaking accident and went back on the water with OR Rise's with below the bar depower system and with stopper way far out, so letting the bar go will drop the kite in safety modus. (in normal conditions.)An important issue with QR's is that when you're going mach1 on your belly on shore you can't reach the QR..

I also found out that when you're in "trouble" you think you can manage... it's difficult to say goodbye to your gear so after a few deathloops (in my case) with full throttle airtime an crashes you're exhausted, and to act and do anything (even releasing) with a truck pulling you forward is very difficult..

Automatic breakline on the Leash is something to think about, it has to be weight depended.

We should learn from your experience. Put this topic sticky at the top.

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