Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Originally Posted by mutantboy

Maths is for DPS classes. healing is reactionary - DPS is proactive.

Healers need timing, smarts, positioning and awareness. You cannot compare flash heal and wait for 10 secs before casting another spell to anything - because sometimes that is what is needed. If you are worrying about rotations then the guy hitting on the tank will probably kill him.

PvE is a team sport. You are not competeing. When you realise that then it becomes easier.

Kelesti:
"More casting of Flash means more crits, which in turn can trigger Improved Holy Concentration, Surge of Light, or if you're Discipline, more Divine Aegis. These are huge"

Totally with Mutantboy. Kalesti also has a valid point.

But as someone else said - healing is situational. So to anyone that can say that GH is better than FH or vice versa -I really can't agree.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

CoH shouldnt have a cd, as priests will learn spamming it over and over is bad, 6 seconds is to long, if this goes through I expect shamans to have a cd on cheal. coh compared to cheal is so much less mana efficient, and most fights, even when i was spamming coh, cheal would win, and theyd have more mana. although it was getting annoying with all the priests coh spamming.. Well it was fun procing many SoL's and my 505 haste trinket. I got about 20% crit raid buffed, and with 5 heals from coh at 20% crit, thats almost 100% chance to crit on a coh, so that leaves me with ~50% chance to proc sol after a coh, that was fun while it lasted

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Truth is ...CoH is just fine, and with the upcoming release of Wrath, I think we will find it works just fine, and will be needed
the way it is. For BC it is overpowered, but that tells me something, how about you all.
Personally, as for gh, I have to be careful with it, or I will pull aggro right off the tank, or off tank ..with it.
Dont really get how someone could use it all the time...lol..

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Flash Heal was vastly improved for LK, as it may have been used 1-5% in a night of BT or MH raiding earlier in the Spring when I last seriously raided. With the new Holy Conc., Imp. Holy Conc., and SoL improving upon Flash Heal, it will see a lot more action.

Even in 3.x I've used it a lot more and I don't even have the SoL talent yet. With the loss of down ranking, we will no longer be willing to throw out 2.5s GH that will vastly see over-healing effects. Even with the Serendipity talent to help refund mana with over-healing, it's still not something you want to just casually throw around and not care about. I have always looked at someones over-healing against effective healing to determine how well they're paying attention or how skilled they are at making the most out of their abilities.

There is no definite order in a rotation that you should try to use like a DPS class would setup in their rotation. We Priests have a large arsenal of abilities to get the job done and there's just no way to setup a rotation that would even be remotely effective. I know I like to keep Renew on Warlocks, Tanks, and SPriests. That allows them to tap, help fight against constant damage, and SW: Death respectively. I like to PoM every CD on either the MT or OT depending on the situation. The rest of the time I judge which is best for the raid. Do I PW: Shield, FH, GH, Renew, BH, etc.

A Priest that knows all their abilities, how to use them, and when to use them will have little difficulties performing well while keeping the over-healing low. In 3.x no Priest should be above 30% over-healing in a full clear of any instance, especially in 25 man instances. As for level 80, I am unable to say yet but I do not think it'll change very much.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Just thinking off the top of my head... if CoH is as powerful as everyone is making out, wouldn't putting a 6 sec CD on the spell give guilds the inclination to stack holy priests so at least 1 priest can CoH at all times?

I kinda feel that CoH is only as useful as the content makes it... for example CoH was the worst healing spell ever for Kara and became moderately ok during T5 content and a must have for T6 content.

Perhaps adjusting the content is the better fix here than obsessing about people spamming the raid with CoH.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

I do believe they mentioned they were also going to tone down the content to make raid wide damage not so demanding that would cause a Priest or Druid to sit around waiting for their CD to come up while the raid gets smashed.

I've heard that both CoH is over-used at 80 content and also it will drive you OOM if you spam it without reason. Conflicting reports make me unable to judge, however I would rather not see a CD put on the spell and other mechanics put in place. I would much rather see something put in place that makes you want to cast a different spell. FoL is a good step for getting a free instant cast, instant FH off on a target. We just didn't get much in the department of healing to make us change anything except adapt to lost down ranking and possibly more abilities with a CD.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

I mentioned this in the druid forms that CoH and WG seem massively OP in their current state, meaning in BC atm. Don't get me wrong here, I do not agree with a 6 sec CD, but meaning that with the changes to raid zones (meaning nerf) and the buffs to all classes, it is the most effective way to deal with BT and SWP in their current states.

Pretty much all the fights in those raid zones deal massive amounts of AE damage, some as in Najentus 9k to every player in the raid, thus, and regardless of cost, as a healer your job is to keep the raid alive and when everyone is taking damge, you heal them in the fastest way possible, and efficiency be damned. Which in a priests sense, does mean spamming CoH, and for a druid WG.

And that said, LK, though I haven't played beta, most likely because of the added heals etc and the focus on AE, I'd imagine that raids aren't going to be hugely different and lots of damage being thrown around. Putting a CD hurts massively, and will only cause raids to find ways around it (read this to mean stacking shaman for Chain Heal).

Well, either that or massively retuning each and every raid, every raid boss to deal with the nerf as they have already be tuned with CoH and WG in mind.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

The Sad thing about this post is the argument of whethere greater heal is more efficiant or flash that has become: they both spend mana (glad i could help). And now: Greater heal will only be efficiant if you use it when its nessecary, same with flash heal. if you use them incorrectly you'll find yourself oom just like spaming the CoH button.

Greater heal and Flash heal are both very different, i'm glad our wise comunity managed to notice this. they both atm can spend your mana, and both can be mana efficiant, it depends what you use them for and how.

For our first poster, and the rest who replied: i even once didn't see the use of prayer of mending, now that prayer of mending also crits, for the healer meter addicts - it is calculated as the priests heal, and for the mana veiw - costs a small amount of mana. Prayer of mending is a uniqe spell - it procs Surge of light, it also heals 5 ppl (6 with the new teir) - ofc you need to use it wisely, know the encounter to predict who to send it to, and how to make it fill all the jumps. i personally recomend to think less about greater heal and flash heal and more about combining this spell in the arsenal of healing - especially since it is good for MT healing and Raid healing.

The argument about whats better to use is just a matter of game style: i find myself healing tanks on beta with greater heal, and prayer of mending, while when i heal raid on the beta i find myself using prayer of mending, CoH and combining flash heals. i Tend to use greater heal on raid when the damage justifies it. The main thought that should lead and guide is: "when the damage justifies it".

Since all the instances are nerfed i have to base my theory on what i did on the beta while playing a holy priest, finding out on the beta as a level 80 what is better. I found myself using less greater heal and more flash heal. simpley because - with serendipity all i really want is to overheal - just by abit - if i can do that with flash heal, a glyphed one - it simpley spends less mana (regarding to casting time, if a tank health is deflicted with 4k health, and my flash heal healed for 5.5k hp, i used it over a almost 1k mana cost spell that will over heal for 10k hp). I generally casted on beta a flash or a greater acording to the amount heal needed. Trying to overheal, just by abit.

I can't say much about renew, using it alot drains mana, doesn't crit, its not that worth using "mana wise". though combining it in order to get into the 5sr is a really handy thing, though on beta when the "time to regen" came, i didn't feel like a renew really did something, the tics weren't effective, and it usualy wasn't needed. i think with renew - there was abit of a fail. using it atm is not worth the mana to my veiw. If i had a druid or 2 in raid i didn't even bother (thats just me though, thinking of my mana, while the druid can HoT).

About the CoH 6 sec CD, the only thing that i am concered about is that WG has the same CD. i think that CoH should definetly get a CD, i've had it with seeing a priest finish with 100% coh being appriciated over - doing nothing. i believe WG should have a longer CD then CoH simpley cause druids with WG and nourish by far pass the priest when it comes to vestility. After all as a priest my uniquness is my verstility, so why do i feel that druids are even more verstile healers then the priest? they can HoT, now they have 2,5sec HT, 2 flash heals - one that leaves a hot, and one that has huge potential in healing spike damage, they have a AE heal, a swiftmend, a NS, and tranq. i don't have as many "answers" as he has, and i'm not asking for that, since i feel like i have enough tools. But i do feel like to "split" the WG from the CoH with different CD will put the line.

on the beta i didn't need to spam CoH, though i also didn't need to spam CoH on live. on live during progress my average us of CoH was 30-40%, on beta it was just the same.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Renew is very useful, but only when used properly. If you cast it randomly it gets wasted ticks and then becomes useless.

Keeping it on tanks and those that are either taking steady damage from their own doing or the encounter/trash's doing can get you good use out of it. I've had Renew be my most used heal in MH and kept a higher HoT uptime than 2 Resto Druids, all while keeping the over-healing low.

Pre-3.x CoH was used about the same % as GH, Renew, and PoM for me. All in the 15-35% range, which is a nice range of use from all abilities and some others used but a much lower %.

Post-3.x CoH becomes more used, but only because I've started to do random PuG BT runs with undergeared, unknowledged players, and with fewer healers. This requires me to keep all of them healed equally and thus required me to use CoH more.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Originally Posted by Caladia

Renew is very useful, but only when used properly. If you cast it randomly it gets wasted ticks and then becomes useless.

Keeping it on tanks and those that are either taking steady damage from their own doing or the encounter/trash's doing can get you good use out of it. I've had Renew be my most used heal in MH and kept a higher HoT uptime than 2 Resto Druids, all while keeping the over-healing low.

Pre-3.x CoH was used about the same % as GH, Renew, and PoM for me. All in the 15-35% range, which is a nice range of use from all abilities and some others used but a much lower %.

Post-3.x CoH becomes more used, but only because I've started to do random PuG BT runs with undergeared, unknowledged players, and with fewer healers. This requires me to keep all of them healed equally and thus required me to use CoH more.

Use Penance moar, imo. ;D

Pre-3.x that was pretty much the same, except I'd follow through a Renew, Mending, and Shield as Holy. Inefficient, yes. But if the tank got a parry/dodge streak, I usually ended up better off with a couple seconds of real regen. We aren't Shaman or Paladins, we do have more than 3 buttons to push, and generally I think we'll make it through. Even with the Circle nerf, way too many tools at our disposal to not pull something good from them.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

We may have more than a few buttons, but a lot of our versatility also means that heals aren't able to be used in every situation.

Pre-3x it was Renew, PoM, GH, and CoH that had the most use in general situations. PoH, BH, and FH had far fewer instances that they the optimal choice.

It's nice that they have made Disc. a more available raid healer, though I won't be checking it out til dual specs are put in place. A lot of changes, talents and glyphs, are giving these less optimial heals more use to give us more options and variety in the way we heal.

We still have to be smart about which heals we use, but then again the smart Priests never had this issue to begin with.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

It's a bit silly to argue over what healing spell is the best as a priest. To be truly effective as a priest you're going to have to use your entire arsenal; anything less simply won't maximize your potential.

Priests quite literally have the right spell for every occasion: Greater Heal for the tanks, Flash Heal for the clothies, Prayer of Healing for your group, CoH and PoM for AoE , Renew and Penance on anything that moves, the list goes on and on.

Sure CoH is overpowered and it makes all the other healers look "bad" on the meters. (meters can DIAF) Ultimately, if that CoH spamming priest was assigned to raid, then he's doing just fine in my book. With any gear worth mentioning, he won't go oom *that* fast anyway and if his targets stay up, I don't care if he's oom by the end of the fight.

Either way, a change is coming. Priests will be able to adapt for any encounter because, that's the way we were made. The consummate healer.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

I instanced all of 70 -> 71 (gg mal'ganis horde:alliance ratio making questing hard as hell)

I must have ran Utgarde Keep or whatever the first one is 15 times, The Nexus once to check it out, and Azjol-nerub also to check it out.

PoH was used way more than CoH, I barely found a use for it except when zoning out and trying to survive the slaughter from horde while we reset.

True there's not a lot of AoE damage going on, but enough to make me want to use PoH now and then. Renew was my most used spell, sitting comfortably at 30-35%, Greater Heal right behind at 25-30%, and PoM at ~20%.

~10% overheal, never ran out of mana or even got close.

Flash Heal is getting a lot more use, which I'm glad to see. Binding Heal I could have used a lot more throughout the night, but I just kept Renew up on multiple targets and that solved any issues of healing myself and another.

Once we get more Int, Spirit, and Crit I do not forsee us having any mana issues at all.

Of course this is only my experience with a very nicely geared group. 1 t6 mage, 2 t6 warlocks, 1 t4+ prot gear arms warrior as the tank in 5 man situations. This could change in a raiding environment, but I also don't really forsee that having much of an issue either.

I look forward to leveling the rest of the way to 80 and then raiding.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Sry to say I did not got all the posts so could be I am saying things over again. First, I am a healer from day one so I have a good idea about healing. With my priest I have been in all the raidenvirements Blizzard gave us (3e boss sunwell TBC, pre TBC Naxx cleared a wing). As fro greater heals, in severall times I was as best geared priest on MT duty and then simple saw too many of times a boss hitting a nice damage streak and killing the MT. a tank should always be 75% or higher in HP and only 75% as short as possible. Sure renew needs to be up all the time and our smartheal on any couldown but G-heal spamming is not an option, flashheal sometimes is. As about CoH spamming, sure its bad but I did a raid as experiment as a disc priest wheer I normally am top of healing and no I am not a mindless CoH spammer I was now last in healing done (the bubble I gave with critting was not counted but even with that I would have been last).

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

I used to be a huge proponent of GHeal over Flash heal. I was always lowest in overhealing and highest in efficiency..... Then I did my first 25 man and was assigned to raid healing. You just don't have time to cast GHeal before someone else heals your target. Sure you can cancel the spell, but then you've wasted the time casting while you watched some other raid healer pick up your target. I don't deny that it probly still works on MT healing, but our Pally always got put on MT healing. While the druid and I were on raid.

Folks are right, the whole arsenal is amazing. Even lightwell can be nuts in the hands of smart groups now. But beyond math is the actual crazy dance that is raid healing and it goes alot further than "OMG this heal > that heal"

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Honestly, if the changes to CoH make people die in your group, you need to play a different class.

CoH is NEVER spammed by a properly played priest in my experience; even in the only instances where it may need to be spammed (Vortex in malygos) the right healers in the group can work around it. We downed malygos with druids rolling lifeblooms on everyone (I was off that night).

CoH is awesome in heroics with ret pallies, topping off their stupid tendency to pull a little aggro and have Martyr crits tick themselves down, its awesome on certain fights like Loatheb. Moving on to GH.

Greater heal is my number 3 button, meaning it has to be on hand really fast. Best tank heal critting for 15 solidly, haste proccs making it quicker. I have gotten into countless arguments over people who tell me to spam flash heal and I charge anyone to prove that thats a better strategy. On raid healing, GH is almost useless without coordination between healers. for instance, a shaman timing a CH right will almost cancel out any precasted GH, but a CoH will top off the group not topped off by CH, thus it has its place. in 5mans Ive found GH to by my main spell, keeping to tank up and picking up people who are basically offtanking. (We aoe chain pull everything and stress healers as opposed to taking time with silly things like CC and aggro). PoM is still the best spell we have imo, and yes, saying one spell is better is a waste of time, but PoM is just genius (especially when using SWD to bounce it off yourself).

I am excited to see how inexperienced priests deal with the CoH nerf, but I'm sure that it might give a little more interesting feel to healing as opposed to a "damage>coh>no more damage" mantra.

Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

Originally Posted by mutantboy

Maths is for DPS classes. healing is reactionary - DPS is proactive.

Healers need timing, smarts, positioning and awareness. You cannot compare flash heal and wait for 10 secs before casting another spell to anything - because sometimes that is what is needed. If you are worrying about rotations then the guy hitting on the tank will probably kill him.

PvE is a team sport. You are not competeing. When you realise that then it becomes easier.

Reason i never use g-heal in 25-mans... a pala always gets a flash in before me and mana wasted

In heroics/10 mans its a hell lot more efficient then flash heal, knowing that it IS going to heal for its full capability