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Re: Who are the true Israelites

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His covenant with loving devotion for a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commandments.

Did Abraham love God? Yes. Did he keep God's commandments? Yes. Are we within a thousand generations of him? Yes.

Great answer! Not to mention, God *never* breaks His word! I do understand how men give up, when it seems God has abandoned His people. I've felt that way myself, and basically "gave up." However, God is faithful even when we give up. His love is boundless.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Originally Posted by Walls

My esteemed brother Keraz, why won't you address Fenris? And, the grammar does not require the LINEAGE. It requires ONE generation to love Him and His Covenant with devotion for the next thousand generations to be blessed - IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR SENTIMENTS. AND, furthermore, it is a PROMISE - as you so APTLY point out in your verse Ephesians 3:6.

C'mon bro. Address Fenris and his verse. It says something and you are trying to duck it. It won't go away.

The issue of who are the true Israelites has been well worked over.
Some think they are the citizens of the State of Israel, with about the same number of people who call themselves Jews still in diaspora.
Others, like myself, think they are every faithful Christian believer.

If they are just the Jewish people, then there are several questions to be resolved;
1/ Has the 10 Northern tribes rejoined with Judah already? From scriptures like Ezekiel 37, John 7:35 and the 160 times that the Prophets maintain the separation, plus the fulfilment of the blessings of Jacob and Moses, they have not.
Therefore, there is a multitude of people in the world who have lost their ancestral identity, but God knows who they are. Amos 9:9

2/ Have every generation of Jews been blessed? They have in fact, been cursed, Jeremiah 24:8-10 The Holocaust is the prime example. The relatively recent establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, is the fulfilment of the 'fig tree budding' prophecy. God has helped them; for His own purposes, they are the visible entity of Israel, while He prepares His true flock for their destiny.

3/ Jesus said; Those who call themselves Jews, but are not are of the synagogue of Satan..... Revelation 2:9 Who is it that calls himself a Jew?
Romans 2:9 states the plain facts of who are the real Jews. Every individual who is circumcised in his heart, are the true Israelites of God.

What is lacking here and in the Church in general, is a correct understanding of what God plans for our future. What is our destiny?
Some like to think going to heaven, is the ultimate, but scripture does not say that anyone other than the 2 Witnesses will do so and for them, it is only after they have been killed. As it is now and will be for the souls of all the martyrs, murdered for their faith. Revelation 6:9-11

The Prophetic Word does tell us what God wants of his people. He originally chose the Israelite people, but they apostatized and were exiled from the holy Land. Now; it is we born again, faithful Christians who are His chosen ones. John 15:16-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10 Individuals from every tribe [of Israel] race, nation and language.
God has moved on, so should we!

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Originally Posted by Keraz

The issue of who are the true Israelites has been well worked over.
Some think they are the citizens of the State of Israel, with about the same number of people who call themselves Jews still in diaspora.
Others, like myself, think they are every faithful Christian believer.

If they are just the Jewish people, then there are several questions to be resolved;
1/ Has the 10 Northern tribes rejoined with Judah already? From scriptures like Ezekiel 37, John 7:35 and the 160 times that the Prophets maintain the separation, plus the fulfilment of the blessings of Jacob and Moses, they have not.
Therefore, there is a multitude of people in the world who have lost their ancestral identity, but God knows who they are. Amos 9:9

2/ Have every generation of Jews been blessed? They have in fact, been cursed, Jeremiah 24:8-10 The Holocaust is the prime example. The relatively recent establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, is the fulfilment of the 'fig tree budding' prophecy. God has helped them; for His own purposes, they are the visible entity of Israel, while He prepares His true flock for their destiny.

3/ Jesus said; Those who call themselves Jews, but are not are of the synagogue of Satan..... Revelation 2:9 Who is it that calls himself a Jew?
Romans 2:9 states the plain facts of who are the real Jews. Every individual who is circumcised in his heart, are the true Israelites of God.

What is lacking here and in the Church in general, is a correct understanding of what God plans for our future. What is our destiny?
Some like to think going to heaven, is the ultimate, but scripture does not say that anyone other than the 2 Witnesses will do so and for them, it is only after they have been killed. As it is now and will be for the souls of all the martyrs, murdered for their faith. Revelation 6:9-11

The Prophetic Word does tell us what God wants of his people. He originally chose the Israelite people, but they apostatized and were exiled from the holy Land. Now; it is we born again, faithful Christians who are His chosen ones. John 15:16-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10 Individuals from every tribe [of Israel] race, nation and language.
God has moved on, so should we!

Much writing, and not a single comment on Fenris' verse. You HAD to duck it. It is the very death knell of your thesis. So let me ask you about Exodus 6:5. The setting is four hundred and thirty years after God made a Covenant of Promise to Abraham. Since then, not one Israelite had been given the Good Land Promised to them as seed of Abraham and Isaac. Since then the twelve sons of Jacob, except for Joseph had involved themselves in shenanigans and conspiracies. Since then Israel has worshiped Egyptian idol-demons (Josh.24:14). Since then, Israel had built treasure cities for the Egyptians, but no House for God. If Israel had such an abominable record, why then does God say;

"And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant."

The Covenant in question here is NOT LAW, not that of Sinai, for it had not yet been given. It was the Covenant of PROMISE to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And now, God, faced with a totally fallen, faithless, enslaved and idol-worshiping nation, sets out to bring them into their Land. But according to you, God would not keep His Promise and destroy them. So what actually happened? God kept His Promised and they entered the good Land.

So too, after ALL ISRAEL'S DISASTROUS FAILINGS FROM ABRAHAM LYING TO THE THE KINGS OF EGYPT AND PHILISTIA, THROUGH THE REJECTION AND MURDER OF THEIR MESSIAH, TO THE EMBRACING OF THE BEAST WHO IS STILL TO COME, GOD WILL NOT BREAK HIS PROMISE! Chastise? Yes! Brutal Chastisement? Yes! The pogroms? Yes! Dispersion, persecutions, hated by all nations, killed by the thousands - and the millions? YES! But the question is, WILL GOD DO WHAT HE PROMISED? WILL HE DO WHAT HE PROMISED THROUGH THE PROPHETS? YES! YES! YES! Israel's recovery is not based on their WORKS. Their final works are to embrace and worship the beast, a Gentile Caesar - IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES OF THEIR TEMPLE! What work more than this could disqualify Israel from blessed recovery? Is this not the lowest point of their history? Yet, because He PROMISED, God will do that which He said with an OATH.

ALL Israel will be resurrected, gathered back to their Land, given a New Covenant of the same Law, made the leading nation, and dwell in bliss with Emmanuel in their midst - for ever. Christ's death is more than enough for all their heinous sins (Matt.1:21; Lk.1:77), and God's PROMISE stands IMMUTABLE!

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Originally Posted by Keraz

The Prophetic Word does tell us what God wants of his people. He originally chose the Israelite people, but they apostatized and were exiled from the holy Land. Now; it is we born again, faithful Christians who are His chosen ones. John 15:16-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10 Individuals from every tribe [of Israel] race, nation and language.
God has moved on, so should we!

Since you believe the church is Israel...then you must think the church will be judged by the apostles right?
Here is a Prophetic Word for you...

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus didn't know the difference between Israel and the church when He said this? Maybe Jesus didn't know there would be a church to you? Personally I think Jesus knew He said He came to save the world and He knows the difference between the two, it is you that can't seem to grasp it.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Much writing, and not a single comment on Fenris' verse. You HAD to duck it. It is the very death knell of your thesis.

I did comment on Deuteronomy 7:9 in #58
I repeat the conditions, stated in the next verse, for that Promise: But those who defy and reject Him, He repays with destruction.....

Who are the nation that defies and rejects Jesus? Who have Laws that prohibit Christianity?
God's Promises to the Jewish nation are voided by their intransigent and continued, over nearly 2000 years, rejection of Jesus. Their fate is destruction as many prophesies so graphically tell us.

Your last sentence is a sheer fanciful dream, a fiction made up to suit your main belief, that you will be raptured to heaven, while the Jews get tribulation on earth.
Isaiah 22:14 says it best: Assuredly your [Judah's] wickedness will never be wiped out. You will die for it. This is the Word of the Lord.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

I did comment on Deuteronomy 7:9 in #58
I repeat the conditions, stated in the next verse, for that Promise: But those who defy and reject Him, He repays with destruction.....

Jews don't defy or reject God. We actually pray to Him three times a day....

And as I've said, you interpretation trivializes 7:9. As if God was saying He only applies the verse to people who deserve it. But then what's the point? People who are good deserve God's blessings anyway. No, the point is that God loves the Jews, not because we are good, but because He loves the patriarchs and keeps His promises. Which it actually says elsewhere in the chapter.

The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

Who are the nation that defies and rejects Jesus?

Such strong language. Jews don't "defy" Jesus. We simply don't believe that he was the messiah.

Who have Laws that prohibit Christianity?

Wrong country, bub. Israel is the only middle eastern country with a growing Christian population. As opposed to all the others, where Christians are persecuted and murdered. But you don't really care when other countries do that, because no Jews are involved.

God's Promises to the Jewish nation are voided by their intransigent and continued, over nearly 2000 years, rejection of Jesus.

God's promises are unconditional, in case you haven't noticed.

Their fate is destruction as many prophesies so graphically tell us.

Your last sentence is a sheer fanciful dream, a fiction made up to suit your main belief, that you will be raptured to heaven, while the Jews get tribulation on earth.
Isaiah 22:14 says it best: Assuredly your [Judah's] wickedness will never be wiped out. You will die for it. This is the Word of the Lord.

Again with this nonsense? Isaiah 22 already happened, long ago. Why does the thought of Jews being murdered en masse excite you so? You should hook up with Hamas, Hezbullah, and the Iranian Mullahs. You can can have a big "God is gonna smite the Jews" party. You can hold it on April 20, I understand that's a good day for such things.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Originally Posted by randyk

Great answer! Not to mention, God *never* breaks His word! I do understand how men give up, when it seems God has abandoned His people. I've felt that way myself, and basically "gave up." However, God is faithful even when we give up. His love is boundless.

Amen. God loves us, not because we deserve it, but because He is God.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

don't think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father' Mt.3:9

Jesus's words are ignored. It's very sad.

You really have to pay proper attention to context. Let's quote the whole passage, and not half of a verse like you are doing.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

What's he saying here? That God expects repentance. That God expects us to live a life as He deems fit. And if that is ignored, surely the destruction will come. And nobody should think, well, we are descended from Abraham and therefore God won't punish us. In fact, quite the opposite is true. See Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins." God is saying, because you are descended from Abraham, I expect more from you.

But what he isn't saying here is that "You're no longer Abraham's descendants".

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

I did comment on Deuteronomy 7:9 in #58
I repeat the conditions, stated in the next verse, for that Promise: But those who defy and reject Him, He repays with destruction.....

Who are the nation that defies and rejects Jesus? Who have Laws that prohibit Christianity?
God's Promises to the Jewish nation are voided by their intransigent and continued, over nearly 2000 years, rejection of Jesus. Their fate is destruction as many prophesies so graphically tell us.

Your last sentence is a sheer fanciful dream, a fiction made up to suit your main belief, that you will be raptured to heaven, while the Jews get tribulation on earth.
Isaiah 22:14 says it best: Assuredly your [Judah's] wickedness will never be wiped out. You will die for it. This is the Word of the Lord.

I will answer you, not in the hope of any acceptance, but for the other interested reader.

When Israel sinned for the first time and built the Golden Calf, God wanted to wipe them out and build a new nation from Moses. Moses intercedes, and God repents. But He also warns that he holds Israel guilty and will visit them at length for this offense. The history that follows tells of first chastisement by other nations in Judges. As time went on the wayward antics of Israel provoked God to more and more anger. The prophets, starting with Moses, divide their prophecies into THREE STAGES. They are:

Warning Israel of their perfidy and the consequences that will follow

Telling Israel what will befall them

Giving Israel hope for a future reconciliation between them and their God

In all your answers, you divide the prophecies concerning Israel into ONLY TWO STAGES

Warning Israel of the perfidy and the following consequences

The Destruction of Israel as a nation and their dispersion among all nations

You patently ignore direct and unambiguous prophecy that tells of a national restoration of Israel to their Land, with a New Covenant of Law, with Emmanuel living in their midst and in favor with Jehovah. You have put a full stop in the middle of prophecy. You, as a student of the Bible, KNOW that there are dozen and even hundreds of prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled concerning Israel. But you willingly ignore them. Those which you are pressed to accept, you insert the Church into them. But it has been pointed out to you several times that the Church is NOT revealed to the prophets of old. There are NO prophecies concerning the Church found in the Old Testament. Besides Ephesians 3:5 & 9, Matthew 13:17 and Romans 16:25 - all direct statements, Colossians 1:24-26 says;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints"

That is, any attempt to INSERT the Church into any Old Testament prophecy is to fly in the face of the Holy Spirit Who has pointedly told us more than once that the Church is ABSENT from Old Testament prophecy. The prophecies in the Old Testament that the Gentiles would be sought by God and would respond does not constitute prophecy concerning the Church. Rather, it is prophecy to fulfill the Promise to Abraham that IN him "all families of the earth would be blessed" and refers to the Millennial Kingdom. The Church is a "mystery" which is made up of Israelites and Gentiles, but in the which their ethnicity ceases to be. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new ... Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all" (2nd Corinthians 5:17; Colossians 3:11).

You may have lived with your present belief for decades, and you may be spurred on every Sunday by men of the same belief. But here on this Forum, your tactics of denying the unfulfilled prophecies where Israel is recovered, is blatant for all to see. Moses misrepresents Jehovah. He is forbidden to enter the Land he was prepared for for 80 years, and served Jehovah for for 40 years. ONE SLIP - and he is forbidden his reward! But God is not like that. He does not forget Moses' service, and anon, He sends an angel to recover Moses' body (Jude 1:9) and Moses is seen ALIVE AND EXALTED ON THE MOUNT OF TRANSFIGURATION - THAT IS, IN THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM. Your theology is that Moses is buried by the Lord for his foolishness and is never recovered?

Let the reader decide, but let the reader also know one thing. Our Lord Jesus dies for the sin and sins OF THE WORLD. THAT INCLUDES ISRAEL. Any man who says that the efficacy of Jesus is not good enough for Israel is close to blasphemy.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

In all your answers, you divide the prophecies concerning Israel into ONLY TWO STAGES

Warning Israel of the perfidy and the following consequences

The Destruction of Israel as a nation and their dispersion among all nations

Keraz is very into the prophecies of God punishing people. Especially Jews. He quotes them with an almost disturbing glee.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Originally Posted by Keraz

The issue of who are the true Israelites has been well worked over.
Some think they are the citizens of the State of Israel, with about the same number of people who call themselves Jews still in diaspora.
Others, like myself, think they are every faithful Christian believer.

No, every believer is part of spiritual Israel, but there is still a physical Israel.

Originally Posted by Keraz

If they are just the Jewish people, then there are several questions to be resolved;
1/ Has the 10 Northern tribes rejoined with Judah already? From scriptures like Ezekiel 37, John 7:35 and the 160 times that the Prophets maintain the separation, plus the fulfilment of the blessings of Jacob and Moses, they have not.
Therefore, there is a multitude of people in the world who have lost their ancestral identity, but God knows who they are. Amos 9:9

2/ Have every generation of Jews been blessed? They have in fact, been cursed, Jeremiah 24:8-10 The Holocaust is the prime example. The relatively recent establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, is the fulfilment of the 'fig tree budding' prophecy. God has helped them; for His own purposes, they are the visible entity of Israel, while He prepares His true flock for their destiny.

Yes, they stole the name of Israel, but it still belongs to the sons of Joseph (Gen. 48:16). Like you said in Amos 9:9, God knows where physical Israel is.

Originally Posted by Keraz

3/ Jesus said; Those who call themselves Jews, but are not are of the synagogue of Satan..... Revelation 2:9 Who is it that calls himself a Jew?
Romans 2:9 states the plain facts of who are the real Jews. Every individual who is circumcised in his heart, are the true Israelites of God.

What is lacking here and in the Church in general, is a correct understanding of what God plans for our future. What is our destiny?
Some like to think going to heaven, is the ultimate, but scripture does not say that anyone other than the 2 Witnesses will do so and for them, it is only after they have been killed. As it is now and will be for the souls of all the martyrs, murdered for their faith. Revelation 6:9-11

The Prophetic Word does tell us what God wants of his people. He originally chose the Israelite people, but they apostatized and were exiled from the holy Land. Now; it is we born again, faithful Christians who are His chosen ones. John 15:16-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10 Individuals from every tribe [of Israel] race, nation and language.
God has moved on, so should we!

Well hold on, John 3:13 says "And no man hath ascended up to heaven" and that will remain true. Even believers will not go to heaven but will stay on earth and reign with Christ:

Rev. 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Let's not worry about the two witnesses. The martyrs in Rev. 6 are speaking to God from the future if John 3:13 is true. Nobody is going to heaven until after the 1000 years.

Re: Who are the true Israelites

Originally Posted by Deade

Yes, they stole the name of Israel

"Stole"? Who did they steal it from?

Yes, there was the political entity knows as "Israel" which consisted of the ten northern tribes. But all of the descendants of Jacob/Israel are also called the "Children of Israel". If you read the book of Exodus, the term appears dozens of times in that book alone. (Sometimes translated as "Israelites" although the Hebrew reads as בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל "Children of Israel".) It's obviously not referring to the ten tribes but the entire people.

More specifically, and especially because this is "end times chat", Ezekiel 37 refers to the entirety of the people as the "children of Israel". Verse 21: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;

So God is clearly and explicitly saying that "Israel" and "Judah" are all the "children of Israel" and will also become "one nation", as we see today.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.