The Flyers rolled four lines at the Penguins all series long, and it was too much for the Penguins defense to handle. The Flyers were THE ONLY team that could match the Pens scoring, and they did that more than adequately. Fleury's numbers were among the worst of any starting goaltender ever in a playoff series. The Flyers are very good, but the 1980 Oilers they are not.

Letang, Orpik, Martin, Michalek all underachieved once again in the playoffs, and the latter 3 did so during the regular season.

The problem is/was Bylsma's system, which has been flawed all along. The Pens have a couple of defenders who can hit, but they are not a physical bunch of guys overall. What they need is a system that plays to their stregths. Martin and Michalek are both professional, positionally sound defensemen. The further they went into Bylsma's system, the more they slid backwards.

THe three center model also must be ditched. This team needs to roll 4 consistently, with two stacked scoring lines and two trapping lines. Adams, Asham, and Cooke have been great, but they are getting older and are not fast skaters. This team needs to get younger and faster. And it also needs a backup goaltender who is reliable....and who can move the friggin puck.

The major pieces are there. Any team would improve their top 6 if they upgraded to Sid/Geno/Staal/Neal/Kunitz/Dupuis. Kennedy is fine. Sully I have no problem with. But beyond that, changes must be made. Someone must be willing to move to wing. A new system will have to be learned. But I believe that the current group of defenders can do well in a better system. All of them have done so before. This team needs an influx of character, both behind the bench and on their 3rd and 4th lines.

mikey287 wrote:What is it about this system that you don't like? What is your idea for a new system?

1) Ditch the three center model, put Staal in the top 6 and leave him there.2) Roll 4 lines.3) Trap more often, especially with lines 3 and 4.4) Replace Adams, Asham, Cooke, and one of the veteran defensemen (not named Letang) with younger, faster players.5) Sign a dependable backup goaltender and cut Fleury's workload by at least 10 games.6) Go with an umbrella power play that shoots the puck frequently.7) Abandon the obsession with the forecheck and focus instead on creating turnovers in the neutral zone.8) Leave the rest of the players intact.

They way I see it, their system worked well during the season. It should stay. The core let us down, aside from Staal. Crosby and Malkin needed to be far more dominant in this series then they were. Going into the offseason, the big questions for me are:

1. How to fit Crosby, Malkin, and Staal on this team, and still get the players you want/need to fill out the team. If Crosby gets a new contract for more money, not sure that is possible anymore. Staal will definitely get a higher contract, again, making that even more difficult.

2. A major change needs to come on defense. Will anyone take Paul Martin in the offseason? Is Michalek good enough defensively to make up for his lack of physical play? It's good to have your Orpiks and your Engellands, but the Pens need to find some cheaper, less skilled versions of Letang...can skate, can pass, and not afraid to hit. There is a need on being able to move the puck in Bylsma's system, but I think we have shifted too far from having solid defensive defensmen to do that.

3. The lack of depth in WBS. Defensemen, great, we seem to be set there. We had guys like Strait and Despres come up and have an impact, and would like to see more of what Sneep and Bortuzzo can offer. But, with all the injuries we went through, there was not a single forward in the system who could help out. Tangradi is done in this organization. He's had more than enough chances and continues to underwhelm. Jeffery might be in the same boat, but probably deserves more of a shot in training camp to see if he can get back to where he was before the knee injury. I really hope Shero starts stocking up on some quality forwards in the draft who can make an impact. If the Pens are going to keep the same core, they are going to need some cheaper, in-house talent to come in and step up on the roster.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate/actually answer these for the sake of a thread I can maybe tolerate with discussion that doesn't involve stupidity.

1. Why? What's wrong with it really? Two elite centers, a shutdown 3rd line center. I like it. Who's our shutdown 3rd line center now? Staal is a winger now?2. Ok, no problem.3. Trap? "Trap" is used as a catch-all for something but I'm not sure what it is. I'm not sure what people think trap means, but it's hard to just tell 6 players to do this and 6 players play this way...it won't work. What happens when Kennedy has to jump into the top six...now he has basically learn a new system. A free agent, same deal..."ok, our bottom two lines play passive like this...but when you play in the top six, it's forward like this..." Basically, it just reverses what Shero has done by getting hard working players that can cycle well. Vitale is out, Kennedy is out, Tangradi is out, Payerl was a waste of signing, Cooke isn't as good of a fit, Dupuis would be lost as he plays all over the lineup.

Your idea is to put the less skilled players on their heels the whole time, instead of going forward? You can't really do this...you can have a somewhat different strategy, but you can't "trap" (whatever we think that means here) and have a straightforward style for the other lines. Wilkes-Barre, ideally, should run a similar system as Pittsburgh for transition...now they have to change their deal? This is an organizational decision really - you want to be a defensive team, fine do it. You want to be a cycling team, do it. You want to a free-wheeling offensive juggernaut, go nuts. But you're gonna have guys confused, alienated, etc. So Pascal Dupuis falls off the first line to the fourth...how is he gonna get back up there again? I really don't like that idea.

4. Younger, faster but we want them to play a passive style? De-emphasizing their best trait?

5. Good.

6. Fine, I'm not really a power play guy...I usually just consult with my players when talking about power plays, I let my players craft it out, I make pointers. I like a lot of movement on my power plays...and I don't like a player like Sullivan on the point when the chips are down.

7. Interesting. I'm a forecheck guy, but I can respect this certainly. But that's a major change of philosophy, and it really doesn't emphasize our strengths that well.

Part of the problem with Staal being on the third line is the fact that he no longer is okay with being on the third line. According to pretty much every reliable media source in Pittsburgh, Staal is very unhappy with his role.

As far as the forecheck debate goes, the Pens will need faster players to execute it. Sending in too many players deep into the offensive zone is just begging for a younger, faster team (like the Isles and Flyers) to exploit that strategy. Against teams with slow forwards, like the Rangers, it works well. But too many guys are getting trapped up ice because they are too slow or too tired after the crashing and banging along the boards to get back into the play, and it is hanging the defense and Fleury out to dry. THe current system also leads to way more penalties being taken. As the veterans get older and slow down even more, that will continue to happen more frequently.

The Pens have faded late in the season the past three years because of fatigue. Fatigue that stems from a system asking them to constantly play an uptempo, physical style, getting 40 shots per game while the opponent gets only 20, but 10 of them are glorious chances. Fleury has stated that he has struggled in the system at times because he likes to see a lot of shots. He excelled in MT's system.

For those who like the system the way it is, I respect your opinion, but Marc Andre Fleury, a Stanley Cup winning goale, just got torched for one of the worst save % and GAA in playoff series history. Laviolette and his Flyers took Bylsma's system apart, and the result were not pretty. FOr those who claim the players are responsible, that is true, but the coach needs to put his players into situations in which they can succeed. You mold your system to the makeup of the team, like Hitchcock did with the Blues. Aside from Dupuis, Kennedy, Letang, and a few others, this Penguin team is a slow team, let's just admit that and move on. Slower teams need to play a more defensive system. A coach who is great with matchups, like Babcock or even Wilson, would be a good fit here. Throw the regular season completely out, and it is apparent that this team is dead in the water with Bylsma behind the bench.

FLPensFan wrote:2. A major change needs to come on defense. Will anyone take Paul Martin in the offseason? Is Michalek good enough defensively to make up for his lack of physical play? It's good to have your Orpiks and your Engellands, but the Pens need to find some cheaper, less skilled versions of Letang...can skate, can pass, and not afraid to hit. There is a need on being able to move the puck in Bylsma's system, but I think we have shifted too far from having solid defensive defensmen to do that.

He ended up +2, but at one point was the best +/- defenseman at +3. Say what you will about +/- statistics...

RxBandit66 wrote:Part of the problem with Staal being on the third line is the fact that he no longer is okay with being on the third line. According to pretty much every reliable media source in Pittsburgh, Staal is very unhappy with his role.

As far as the forecheck debate goes, the Pens will need faster players to execute it. Sending in too many players deep into the offensive zone is just begging for a younger, faster team (like the Isles and Flyers) to exploit that strategy. Against teams with slow forwards, like the Rangers, it works well. But too many guys are getting trapped up ice because they are too slow or too tired after the crashing and banging along the boards to get back into the play, and it is hanging the defense and Fleury out to dry. THe current system also leads to way more penalties being taken. As the veterans get older and slow down even more, that will continue to happen more frequently.

The Pens have faded late in the season the past three years because of fatigue. Fatigue that stems from a system asking them to constantly play an uptempo, physical style, getting 40 shots per game while the opponent gets only 20, but 10 of them are glorious chances. Fleury has stated that he has struggled in the system at times because he likes to see a lot of shots. He excelled in MT's system.

For those who like the system the way it is, I respect your opinion, but Marc Andre Fleury, a Stanley Cup winning goale, just got torched for one of the worst save % and GAA in playoff series history. Laviolette and his Flyers took Bylsma's system apart, and the result were not pretty. FOr those who claim the players are responsible, that is true, but the coach needs to put his players into situations in which they can succeed. You mold your system to the makeup of the team, like Hitchcock did with the Blues. Aside from Dupuis, Kennedy, Letang, and a few others, this Penguin team is a slow team, let's just admit that and move on. Slower teams need to play a more defensive system. A coach who is great with matchups, like Babcock or even Wilson, would be a good fit here. Throw the regular season completely out, and it is apparent that this team is dead in the water with Bylsma behind the bench.

This is certainly a good post and a lot of good points are made. So let's ditch it then...it is does draw a lot of energy from the players, it really makes them skate the whole rink on almost every shift. I wouldn't call us "slow" per se, but we're not the fastest team in the league by any stretch...

So we're looking for more defense, without using that dreaded "trap" word (even though we do "trap" too sometimes, every team does to an extent) while still being an up-tempo team. Though it's been around for quite a while, it's being (re-)popularized now is the strong side attack defense...if you watch a Blues game or some Stars games, for instance, that is what they use. In layman's terms, it has players migrate to the puck carrier and basically surround him, forcing him to dump it in or throw a cross-ice pass...it has some weaknesses (as would any system): getting caught in transition, it leaves many open players on the rink, cross-ice passes, cross-corner dump-ins, etc. But it's up-tempo and you can adapt it to include a little more physicality and you can kind of "zone off" the back end which would allow Paul Martin and Zbynek Michalek to feel a little more at home, although they shouldn't be paired together.

One kind of a draw back for this offensively is that a lot of your players are on one side of the ice, which can make even the juiciest of neutral zone turnovers very hard to breakout with...because players on the same side of the rink are so much easier to contain...and if we dump it in, we can't really afford to send more than one forward in to get it (unlike now, where 2 can retrieve + 1 can support low) without getting back to the same thing we're doing now. Plus side though, we have two of the best players in the world that can create in limited space - so we might be able to get away with it.

Scoring goes down for them - ideally. But it also goes down for us because there would be less attack zone time, and we would draw fewer penalties than we do now (less power plays).

I just wouldn't want to see a team with two different strategies at the same time...that's very confusing. Lines can have different "objectives" on the rink, but the team shouldn't be playing two different games.

Just for food for thought if you're looking for an idea. It can be up-tempo, but fairly low maintenance vs. the current system. Now the tricky part, does HCDB know how to or want to implement it?

In response to Mikey's post, I agree that changing the system would lead to less power plays for the Pens. It would also create more odd man rushes for the Pens. The Pens used to be a very high percentage shooting team. Now, they get a ton of shots but too many are low quality. They outshot Philly yesterday in a game that the Flyers dominated. And the most frustrating thing about Bylsma is that his power play does not shoot enough, but at even strength the forwards are encouraged to throw everything at the goaltender.

I have no doubt Bylsma is smart enough to implement a different system. But I think he is too stubborn to make the necessary changes, and he is too much of a players' coach. The 8-4 implosion last week in Philly had all the makings of a team that lacks any kind of structure off the ice. It looked like the Flyers under Stevens a few seasons ago. Eventually under Stevens, the players got out of control, and some of the best players were known more for partying and sleeping around than actually playing hockey. Laviolette brought in structure, and removed the players who lacked it. And the Flyers are moving on, with a core of young players to boot. The Pens need a similar shift, before this thing slides any further in the wrong direction.

Malkamaniac wrote:The Penguins couldn't execute their system because Philly was so good at smashing that system.

And Bylsma and his staff could not adjust. They have never been able to adjust. And the special teams laid another massive egg in the postseason. That's why changes need to be made with the coaching staff and the system.

Malkamaniac wrote:The Penguins couldn't execute their system because Philly was so good at smashing that system.

And Bylsma and his staff could not adjust. They have never been able to adjust. And the special teams laid another massive egg in the postseason. That's why changes need to be made with the coaching staff and the system.

RxBandit66 wrote:The Pens have faded late in the season the past three years because of fatigue. Fatigue that stems from a system asking them to constantly play an uptempo, physical style, getting 40 shots per game while the opponent gets only 20, but 10 of them are glorious chances. Fleury has stated that he has struggled in the system at times because he likes to see a lot of shots. He excelled in MT's system.

I have to agree with this idea. The past few years they have seemed worn out just as they are reaching the playoffs.

I also think the lack of a backup for Fleury is a real issue. Johnson's had a horrible year.

RxBandit66 wrote:Part of the problem with Staal being on the third line is the fact that he no longer is okay with being on the third line. According to pretty much every reliable media source in Pittsburgh, Staal is very unhappy with his role.

As far as the forecheck debate goes, the Pens will need faster players to execute it. Sending in too many players deep into the offensive zone is just begging for a younger, faster team (like the Isles and Flyers) to exploit that strategy. Against teams with slow forwards, like the Rangers, it works well. But too many guys are getting trapped up ice because they are too slow or too tired after the crashing and banging along the boards to get back into the play, and it is hanging the defense and Fleury out to dry. THe current system also leads to way more penalties being taken. As the veterans get older and slow down even more, that will continue to happen more frequently.

The Pens have faded late in the season the past three years because of fatigue. Fatigue that stems from a system asking them to constantly play an uptempo, physical style, getting 40 shots per game while the opponent gets only 20, but 10 of them are glorious chances. Fleury has stated that he has struggled in the system at times because he likes to see a lot of shots. He excelled in MT's system.

For those who like the system the way it is, I respect your opinion, but Marc Andre Fleury, a Stanley Cup winning goale, just got torched for one of the worst save % and GAA in playoff series history. Laviolette and his Flyers took Bylsma's system apart, and the result were not pretty. FOr those who claim the players are responsible, that is true, but the coach needs to put his players into situations in which they can succeed. You mold your system to the makeup of the team, like Hitchcock did with the Blues. Aside from Dupuis, Kennedy, Letang, and a few others, this Penguin team is a slow team, let's just admit that and move on. Slower teams need to play a more defensive system. A coach who is great with matchups, like Babcock or even Wilson, would be a good fit here. Throw the regular season completely out, and it is apparent that this team is dead in the water with Bylsma behind the bench.

This is certainly a good post and a lot of good points are made. So let's ditch it then...it is does draw a lot of energy from the players, it really makes them skate the whole rink on almost every shift. I wouldn't call us "slow" per se, but we're not the fastest team in the league by any stretch...

So we're looking for more defense, without using that dreaded "trap" word (even though we do "trap" too sometimes, every team does to an extent) while still being an up-tempo team. Though it's been around for quite a while, it's being (re-)popularized now is the strong side attack defense...if you watch a Blues game or some Stars games, for instance, that is what they use. In layman's terms, it has players migrate to the puck carrier and basically surround him, forcing him to dump it in or throw a cross-ice pass...it has some weaknesses (as would any system): getting caught in transition, it leaves many open players on the rink, cross-ice passes, cross-corner dump-ins, etc. But it's up-tempo and you can adapt it to include a little more physicality and you can kind of "zone off" the back end which would allow Paul Martin and Zbynek Michalek to feel a little more at home, although they shouldn't be paired together.

One kind of a draw back for this offensively is that a lot of your players are on one side of the ice, which can make even the juiciest of neutral zone turnovers very hard to breakout with...because players on the same side of the rink are so much easier to contain...and if we dump it in, we can't really afford to send more than one forward in to get it (unlike now, where 2 can retrieve + 1 can support low) without getting back to the same thing we're doing now. Plus side though, we have two of the best players in the world that can create in limited space - so we might be able to get away with it.

Scoring goes down for them - ideally. But it also goes down for us because there would be less attack zone time, and we would draw fewer penalties than we do now (less power plays).

I just wouldn't want to see a team with two different strategies at the same time...that's very confusing. Lines can have different "objectives" on the rink, but the team shouldn't be playing two different games.

Just for food for thought if you're looking for an idea. It can be up-tempo, but fairly low maintenance vs. the current system. Now the tricky part, does HCDB know how to or want to implement it?