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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

ummm jazz wee! remember too! things we apply force to often break! which is why bird is such a great model! because you can hear. as ive been saying, that he sounds great REGARDLESS of who's playing with.

ahhhh!!!! one more way forward ... and completely different (and of course not always possible!).... find another gig! and then hire a bass player who does really listen and support his or her bandmates.

printer1, thank you for being here. Your words of advice are deep and well understood (I think). Since you are new to this forum, just look up at the top. I have left you a PM (private message).

Anyway, rather than talk in theory, I've tried to analyze what's happening. Here's a recording. Please feel free to criticize deeply because I'm never afraid of it, regardless of how harsh. I always end up being better because of it.

The swing seemed fine initially. Then during my solo, the rhythm section reverted to an "open" style. This may be my fault as I encourage less stiffness there. But I think the groove faltered there and it obviously affects me.

I'm also not pleased with my usual microtiming issues.

The rhythm section also affects my articulation.

I hate my articulation and tone. I don't know where to start. I don't have that "rounded" legato sound for sure that you mention. Things falter in a live situation.

And it's not like my solo was working too. I've taken a break from gigs for a few weeks this holiday season so I can woodshed for a bit.

So please everyone, critique away so I can have a focused woodshed session. I'm building a faults list.

Anyone play Inner Urge? I started to learn the head yesterday and man, that is some tough head. Looks like it requires quite a bit of practice to play at the tempos I've heard.

Also with all those Lydian chords and non-functional progressions, it really looks interesting to work on.

Scep -- right down your alley?

I'll check it out soon, but in the meantime I'm making my xmas tunes sound good. I find that challenging enough these days. Nothing like playing for sing alongs in F# Major and accidentally sticking in a b7 or #11 where they ought not to be.It's this kind of thing that makes me more honest with myself as to whether I really can hear intervals in tempo, and whether I really do know how chords work within any key.

I'd encourage all other jazz pianists to try the same. It ain't jazz, but it's close enough.;)

Scep, I'm headed to a trio gig where the request is 100% Christmas Jazz. Now I didn't grow up here, so I don't even know how the Rudolf tune goes ... That promises to be entertaining, in more ways than one!

Hi buddy, listen you're being way to heard on yourself. You're playing nice, man! Nothing at all wrong with your tone, etc.

Here are 2 improv concepts that can make a(sorry)Huge difference if interested:

1) "Feeling in fours" -when creating your line, intentionally try to create a longer line, grouping the 1/8 notes in groups of four with a slight accent on the first of the four. A pnuematic device you can use in your cabeza is to say the words "Slice of pizza" to yourself as you improvise, and group the notes along with the words..Slice of pizza, Slice of pizza, etc. The 3 types of lines you can create, lenghtwise, are :

1) a short line 1-2 meas.2) A medium line- 3-4 meas. (of continuous 1/8ths, no rest)3) A long line - anything over 4 bars.

At the moment you're creating mostly shorter lines, if you try to play a longer line made up of continuous 1/8ths, and group them in 4 with a slight natural accent on the first of the four, it will be very hip..

Also, it's nice to incorporate both scales and arpeggios into your line, naturally mixed together freely. Now you're using mostly scale notes. The arpeggios to incorporate into your line would be the basic 1357, and the extensions- 3579.. The line can be like a yin-yang sign with scale-ish then arpeggio-ish movements blending into each other..

Funny you say my lines are short. Some are actually too long I thought later on. I also thought I wasn't breaking out melodic ideas well (a very common problem with me). Seems too like I'm shying away from arpeggiating when playing live. I'll add more of that.

BTW - Knotty mentioned "Slice of Pizza" to me before but I didn't understand the context back then. I understand now.

find ANY WK transcriptions on the web. there are a whole bunch out there (just google "wynton kelly transcription". you could just choose one or two phrases w/triplets from any of the solos you find. then practice those few phrases until you really like the feel you've developed. you'll know when you have it! if you can find a freddie the freeloader transcription, that's one one gem among many ....

actually, you could do the same w/passages from the omnibook. charlie parker has unbelievable ways of playing triplets. so, again, just find a passage or two that you like or and practice the phrases until you like the way it feels. much more important to master something small than to play something much longer without mastery!

it's also good to transpose whatever phrases you choose into all 12 keys. but if that's difficult to start, don't worry about it. maybe just transpose PART of the phrase ... the important part, again, is gain mastery over something, no matter how small! over time, that expertise with something small with lead to expertise with something just a little larger. and if it seems like it's taking a long time, well, that's just the way it is!

these little tiny gains, one at a time, slow at first but faster and faster as you keep at it all add up.

one more thing about speed ... hal galper has a great book called "forward motion." in that book he talks about dizzy gillespie who said something like the faster you play the slower you should think. which is to say, all the slow work you're doing now does translate to faster tempos late ....

hope this helps!

Hey PrintsThanks very much for your help. I didn't know Freddie the Freeloader before but will start singing it today. You are right - Wynton's solo is amazingly awesome.I also like your idea of transposing just one phrase, as I do take quite a while to transcribe in the original key, and then to transpose. I will start transposing into C and F.

The Joe Henderson tune, "Inner Urge" is one my favorites. I used to play it a lot 15-20 years ago. I just started playing it again after many years away from it...I have a new found love for it.

Kenny Barron told me he practiced it in 2 different sections.

The F#m7 b5 to Fmaj 7 b5 to the Eb & Db maj 7 b5. Then the one bar per chord sequence with--EMaj7b5 to Db maj7b5...D to B etc.He said he would often isolate that latter sequence and practice/play has a warmup. Start slow, keep looping it and build it up to faster tempo.

The Joe Henderson tune, "Inner Urge" is one my favorites. I used to play it a lot 15-20 years ago. I just started playing it again after many years away from it...I have a new found love for it.

Kenny Barron told me he practiced it in 2 different sections.

The F#m7 b5 to Fmaj 7 b5 to the Eb & Db maj 7 b5. Then the one bar per chord sequence with--EMaj7b5 to Db maj7b5...D to B etc.He said he would often isolate that latter sequence and practice/play has a warmup. Start slow, keep looping it and build it up to faster tempo.

A challenging song for sure.

Yes. It looks like a good challenge. The initial problem is getting that head under the fingers. The 16th arpeggios at the end appear to be a pain.

4. getting things under the fingers ... hand and arm should move first .... so fingers are over the notes they'll play. that's better than moving fingers first the notes and then letting hand and arm catch up)

5. transcribing JH's solo on IU ... even if only just a phrase or two ... may unlock the keys the kingdom (possibly .... ... possibly not ....

Hi buddy, listen you're being way to heard on yourself. You're playing nice, man! Nothing at all wrong with your tone, etc . . . . . . The line can be like a yin-yang sign with scale-ish then arpeggio-ish movements blending into each other..

you're right of course. using the scale you mention changes relationship among common tones in the modes.

BUT ... from an 'as simple/basic as possible' point of view the simpler analysis (1common note instead of 2) is, well, simpler, more basic. add to that the mystery ... which is G# isn't in the melody over the F# chord (neither is G natural).

well, some questions could be: which of the 2 scales did joe henderson use when soloing? or mccoy tyner? the answer could be many things, including NEITHER of those scales!

musically, what does more, rather than less, common tones let us do? ... smoother voiceleading between chords and scales. is that smoother voice leading desirable? well, it's simpler and more basic so in that sense more foundational.

BUT none of what i'm saying above obviates the simple fact that if you HEAR the G# in that scale you cite as the note of choice, well then you should use it!

it may also be that JH didn't put that G# in the beginning of the head because he preferred the ambiguity .... which is to say the possibility of both!

anyway, chris, you're quite right to point out a different approach - the more ways we have the better -and i'd be very surprised if someone somewhere hasn't applied the G# in exactly the way you suggest! (and then let that one note propogate in the transpositions of the other modes ....

in fact, i'm off to the piano (and spotify) now to play & listen and try those differences!

Originally Posted By: chrisbell

Originally Posted By: printer1

1. the difference betwwen f#mb5 and fMb5 (the scale) is one note!

I beg to differ. Approaching those two chords on a chord/scale relationship level it's two notes.

The changes to Inner Urge doesn't seem ultra difficult by itself. It's just confusing to keep thinking of the scales involved because of all the Lydian. But if I have it written down it's not that weird. It's just hard thinking of the parent major scale while it's moving so fast.

But to play those arpeggios at the normal tempo is going to be tough. Hands have to be used to those shapes, particularly the jump into and out of the arpeggio.

Scep, I'm headed to a trio gig where the request is 100% Christmas Jazz. Now I didn't grow up here, so I don't even know how the Rudolf tune goes ... That promises to be entertaining, in more ways than one!

But there's a story to this. As you can hear, the singer is AWESOME. The guy is 75 years old. He came up to me at the gig a month ago and asked if he could sit in on percussion. He was with the Ramsey Lewis Band as percussionist and composer. Anyway, he sat in with us before and was a really good percussionist. I told him not to expect too much since we're not at the Ramsey Lewis level But he was kind and friendly and seemed really happy to play.

This past week, he comes back again. And this time he says, "I can sing too". So we quickly choose some Christmas songs and just play it (he even brings his own mic). I had no idea what was going to happen. I thought it would be like Karaoke night with an out of tune singer.

My goodness, the guy's voice was incredible! So he's retired and is willing to work for our kind of bucks so I will use him as my singer next time. It's incredible to be mixing around with musicians that are at such a high level. I'm amazed he was willing to hang out with us. I did check out the guy, and true enough, he was in Ramsey Lewis records....He wasn't kidding.

Forgive the hesitations on the instruments. I haven't played these Christmas songs outside of solo piano arrangements years and years ago. So we just opened up our Ipads and picked the tunes and played. Had no idea how it was going to go. So there's a little warmup period to each.

Yup, iRealB app has chords only. But on my Ipad I also have a PDF reader so I actually have all the Real Books loaded. So I have all the above. But other band members don't have that. All have iRealB. Great app. It's really a killer app on the iPad. I would say a lot of jazz musicians bought Ipads specifically because of this app.

The guy has an incredible voice. A voice you would hear on a popular record (not in my gig).

Scep, I'm headed to a trio gig where the request is 100% Christmas Jazz. Now I didn't grow up here, so I don't even know how the Rudolf tune goes ... That promises to be entertaining, in more ways than one!

so, how did it go?

we had a lot of fun. Someone throwing a party at his house. nothing to bring, someone drove me, it can't get better. We played a few xmas tunes but then moved on to easy standard. We really had a great time. Thanks for asking!

Scep, I'm headed to a trio gig where the request is 100% Christmas Jazz. Now I didn't grow up here, so I don't even know how the Rudolf tune goes ... That promises to be entertaining, in more ways than one!

so, how did it go?

we had a lot of fun. Someone throwing a party at his house. nothing to bring, someone drove me, it can't get better. We played a few xmas tunes but then moved on to easy standard. We really had a great time. Thanks for asking!

Hi everybody.My first post in this thread, but I try to follow it as time permits. I still far away from you guys in here and hope one day will be able to touch these topics.

JW.I think you well deserved to meet this person. I wish you learn from him and be overall better musician!I am really happy for you! Keep it up!

With respect, qwert.

Thanks qwert and hello! Drop by and chat. You're always welcome here.

I do appreciate the fact that the singer/percussionist can hang out with local musicians like us and not be critical that we're not at his level. In fact he was scheduled to play with us some more but he had a gig that came up (good $ he said).

But the good news is that (a) he made us look good, (b) we must sound ok enough that it doesn't embarrass him.

What it does show though is that excellent musicians like him abound but they can't make enough money so they've got to hook up with bands like ours. He should be making more money in more serious gigs because he deserves it.

To those who know Inner Urge (printer1?), I have two versions of the head in the Real Books and they have different ways of playing the arpeggio section (last 8 bars).

On one, the Bb7 arpeggio is all white notes, and then on the other it includes the b7 of Bb7. Different timing too. So which one should I be using? The second one is easier.

I've listened to Piano versions of the head and I can't actually even hear the upward arpeggio. Only the initial downward line. It's very hard to play the upward arpeggio and then have fingers ready for the next one. Particularly at the original tempo of 218.

Also the last 8 bars -- really hard to "hear" it flow melodically, even just sticking to important chord tones. Will take a while to absorb and not play mechanically.

Back to back last night. Really fun playing with this tenor player i just met. Plays all by ear. Key is irrelevant to him. What makes it really fun is that if I ever screw up a chord, then bam, he follows right along and crashes with me. Then gives me a look like "That didn't sound right".

jazzwee ... couple of things going on w/those different versions of the head. first, fake books and, in particular, real books can't be trusted to be 100% accurate.they are a lot of reasons for this and i'll just leave it at that. maybe best to say about them that we're lucky we have' at all!

the best way to figure out what the head actually is to transcribe it. software like "Transcribe" will let you slow the recording WAY WAY down to the point where you can pretty easily isolate individual notes. or if that's still too hard, slowing the head down in something like Transcription will at least let you choose between one or the other of the realbook versions.

those last 8 bars ... one way to approach then is, again, slow down recordings and transcribe. from listening to chick corea's "now he sings now he sobs" i learned that chick plays (or played in those days as it were) over those types of chord changes with pentatonic scales - which vastly simplifies them. so just a question of which tool to use for which task.

one last observation ... when we were discussing II last week the question of G natural or G# in the scale for the f#m7b5 came up. so ..... i went to spotify, pulled up some recordings and:

jerry bergonzi (fabulous tenor player) begins his solo a line that has the G, not the G#. on the original inner urge recording, bob cranshaw (the bassist) takes the first solo. to my ears, he doesn't sound particularly comfortable soloing on those changes. having said that, he uses G#s over the f#m7b5 (and not G naturals). very interesting .....

joe henderson: he plays his first three choruses without using EITHER a g natural or a g# over the the f#m7b5. very interesting .......

in his 4th chorus, BANG, there it is: g# as an approach note to a natural.

i didn't check to see how mccoy tyner handles it ... but that would be interesting too.

so ..... a lot of ways to interpret how/why JH does what he does. one strategy i took away from what he's doing is DON"T USE EITHER G# or G NATURAL over the F#m7b5. if you DON'T use either of those notes you'll end up, by default, focusing on other notes! ... which is exactly what the II head demonstrates over the first 8 bars.