To me, what's being said is that taking either the Impersonal or the Personal aspects as being the One True Truth Supreme is incorrect, though trying to say that the Personal aspect is the Supreme Absolute Only and no other could possibly be correct is worse. That's what's trying to be conveyed IMO.

If you read the 14th verse, it basically states that the best understanding is the one that realizes that both the Personal and Impersonal are True.

yajvan

14 August 2010, 08:30 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu

As you mention, asaṁbhūti is what is offered in the 12th śloka i.e. ' non-existence ' .
HDF had a substantial conversation on the īśāvāsya upaniṣad back in October of 2009.
For those curious on this subject here is the HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677)

praṇām

atanu

14 August 2010, 09:59 PM

--If you read the 14th verse, it basically states that the best understanding is the one that realizes that both the Personal and Impersonal are True.

Namaste Riverwolf

Neither the sambhutim (the world of creator bramA) nor the unmanifest (the ground of Pragnya-deep sleep) are true of their own.

I am impelled to repeat:

1. sambhutim=vaykta=manifest bhuta= equates to the dream and waking worlds

2. asambhutim=avaykta=unmanifest prakriti= equates to the deep sleep world

By worship of sambhutim alone -- the universe of Hiranygarbha (the world of creator BrahmA) one enters into darkness.

By worship of asambhutim alone -- the unmanifest moolaprakriti (the ground of deep sleep, Pragnya, the nature of Self) one enters into greater darkness.

But, He who knows both the Unmanifested (moola prakriti - nature of Self) and the destructible (Hiranyagarbha) together, transcends death by the (worship of) the destructible and attains IMMORTALITY by the (worship of ) the Unmanifested.

---------------------

The ultimate aim is to attain the akshara avyakta or avyayam or the Immortal Self -- which cannot be worshipped.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan

14 August 2010, 10:39 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;

I wrote the following,

As you mention, asaṁbhūti is what is offered in the 12th śloka i.e. ' non-existence '.

Please note that kumar_das wrote the śloka correctly in post 1 above.
Note in the line 'ye 'sambhūtim upāsate' the proper rules of saṃskṛt have been applied. Avagraha ( holding away) is applied in this verse i.e. the 'a' is held back ( as I look at the actual saṃskṛt script) , and not sounded.

It is shown in transliteration using the apostrophe , as shown - ye 'sambhūtim and the 'a' as mentioned is not sounded. The elision ( the omission of a vowel or consonent) is correct. We see this as a symbol in the acual śloka - yet I cannot show you this symbol on this screen.

Also note in the 12th passage of the īśāvāsya upaniṣad shown above , I added the symbols virāma and pūrṇavirāma. That is, the vertical bars. 1 vertical bar is virāma and 2 vertical bars is pūrṇavirāma. They inform the reader of the half-way point | and the end of the stanza || . We can consider them punctuation marks of saṃskṛt.

Please note that kumar_das wrote the śloka correctly in post 1 above.
Note in the line 'ye 'sambhūtim upāsate' the proper rules of saṃskṛt have been applied. Avagraha ( holding away) is applied in this verse i.e. the 'a' is held back ( as I look at the actual saṃskṛt script) , and not sounded.

It is shown in transliteration using the apostrophe , as shown - ye 'sambhūtim and the 'a' as mentioned is not sounded. The elision ( the omission of a vowel or consonent) is correct. We see this as a symbol in the acual śloka - yet I cannot show you this symbol on this screen.

Also note in the 12th passage of the īśāvāsya upaniṣad shown above , I added the symbols virāma and pūrṇavirāma. That is, the vertical bars. 1 vertical bar is virāma and 2 vertical bars is pūrṇavirāma. They inform the reader of the half-way point | and the end of the stanza || . We can consider them punctuation marks of saṃskṛt.

Thought that was worth mentioning.

praṇām

Namaste yajvanji

Thank you for your guidance. I expected Kumar to answer this. I had asked Kumar "Is your 'sambhūtim equal to asambhūtim?" Since I do not know that asat can be written as: ye 'sat.

As usual, I hold that the meaning must be known. The transliteration rules are impossible for me and many others, who actually know the words and their meanings. But Sarabhanga would show that on account of transliteration rule I was wrong. :) That does not mean that I imply that following a standard convention of transliteration and the actual rules of grammar can be ignored. I do not (did not) know that asat can be written as: ye 'sat.

Into a blind darkness they enter who follow after the Non-Birth,
they as if into a greater darkness who devote themselves to the
Birth alone.
Yes its write,who belive there is no birth after death they enter the darkness,and though who belived that there is only one birth or life enter more darkness.
Where is the misconcept?

He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution
of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth
enjoys Immortality.
That means who knows the cycle of death and birth and know how to free from it enjoy immortiality.In that connection I want to recite another sukta of Isha upanishad

But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all
existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.
Thanks.

kd gupta

15 August 2010, 06:38 AM

That is really an interesting discussion . My submission is….
It is Yesambhutimupaste . [ e +asambhutim ] , they are surrounded by darkness of ignorance who believe in destruction , divide and rule or have their power to finish others .
On the contrary they also are ignorant who are always in the will of reinstating their powers with the fear of others .

The spiritual way….Attain the Immortality [ with sambhuti ] , not avoiding but by overcoming [with asambhuti ] the fear of death …11/40 yaj.

atanu

15 August 2010, 07:53 AM

Namaste Yajvanji and Guptaji

I checked Sankara bhasya (Tr. M. Hiriyanna), which has the following note:

It should be noted that sambhuti in the first pada is mentioned without the (initial) a (and is to be taken as equivalent to asambhuti).

I reproduce Sankara's interpretation below:

Now with a view to inculcate their simultaneous practice, follows the condemnation of the separate meditation on the manifest and on the unmanifest.

12. Into blinding darkness
pass they who are devoted to the
unmanifest, and into still greater
darkness, as it were, they who
delight in the manifest

Sambhavanam means birth. That which is born and is an effect is sambhuti. asambhuti is what is other than sambhuti i.e., prakrti, the unditferentiated cause whose essence is nescience and which is the source of all activity and desire.

They who devote themselves to such Cause enter (as may be expected) darkness which is correspondingly blind in its nature. (Sambhitim i.e., in the phenomenal Brahman known as Hiranyagarbha). They who delight only in Him enter darkness which is, as it were, more blinding still. Now follows as an argument for their simultaneous practice, a statement of the distinction between the respective fruits of the two kinds of meditation.

13. Distinct, they say, is (what
results) from the manifest and
distinct again, they say, is (what
results) from the unmanifest.

Thus have we heard from the sages who taught us that altogether distinct from that which has birth from meditating on the phenomenal Brahman, supernatural power such as assuming, at will, extreme subtlety is said to result. Similarly, they say that there is a (distinctive) fruit from meditating on the unmanifest, viz, that, alluded to in pada 1 of verse 12 and which is known as "absorption into primal cause', we have heard the saying of the wise.

The last pada means "who explained to us the results of meditating on the manifest and the unmanifest". Since this is so, it is but right that meditation on both the effect and the cause should be practised together ; a further reason being the achievement (through such meditation) of the chief end-amrtm.

14. Whoever understands the
manifest and the unmanifest as
going together, (he), by overcoming
death through the manifest,
attains immortality through the
unmanifest

The first half of the verse means "He who understands that meditation on the manifest and the unmanifest should be practised together", "by meditating on such (Brahman)" all kinds of deficiency arising from limited power, demerit, covetousness and so on are overcome, for great supernatural power is attained by the contemplation of Hiranyagarbha.

Having thus overcome death or limitation of power by meditating on the unmanifest, amrtam i.e. absorption into the First Cause is attained.

It should be noted that sambhuti in the first pada is mentioned without the (initial) a (and is to be taken as equivalent to asambhuti) agreeably to the statement that the result is absorption into the First Cause.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu

15 August 2010, 08:00 AM

Friends

The reason for these posts is to dispel the doubts that many students of Vedanta initially hold that the Unmanifest (asambhutim-prakriti) is the final goal being taught by Shankaracharya.

And many dvaita oriented criticisms (including from christians) of advaita are equally ignorant of this fact and criticise advaita on this ground that it teaches merging with darkness. Shankara teaches merging with amrata-the immortal, which is akshara.

I thought that a clarification was in order.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan

15 August 2010, 10:34 AM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté atanu,

The transliteration rules are impossible for me and many others, who actually know the words and their meanings. But Sarabhanga would show that on account of transliteration rule I was wrong. Om Namah Shivaya

Yes, so many rules... both in transliteration and in saṃskṛt. One is easily tripped up often ( that would be me).

Would you mind elaborating on these? I.E., how you get vaykta (manifest bhuta; this world) from sambhutim, and avaykta (unmanifest prakriti; nature) from asambhutim? I do not speak any Sanskrit, so I don't understand the connections.

Also, were you trying to contradict me, or support what I had said?

yajvan

23 August 2010, 07:06 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233; riverwolf (et.al)

Would you mind elaborating on these? I.E., how you get vaykta (manifest bhuta; this world) from sambhutim, and avaykta (unmanifest prakriti; nature) from asambhutim? I do not speak any Sanskrit, so I don't understand the connections.

I think think your post was for atanu , yet let me , if I may, contribute the following:

Note in the line 'ye 'sambhūtim upāsate' the proper rules of saṃskṛt are applied. Avagraha ( holding away) is applied in this verse i.e. the 'a' is held back , and not sounded.
Hence this word is asaṃbhūtim or asaṃbhūti , defined as 'non-existence' , some say non-becoming.

The last line has saṃbhūtyām which is sambhūti + yā . This sambhūti is defined as birth , origin , production i.e. 'risen or produced'; ya is enter , approach , arrive at ( plus many other definitons)

We can assume from asaṃbhūti of non-becoming as the Universal that is yet to manifest. From sambhūti we get risen or produced and can equate this to 'becoming' and the indication of the manifest.

Perhaps if the ṛṣi ( rishi) used the word vināśa now ( instead of in the 14th śloka) defined as utter loss , annihilation , perdition , destruction , decay , death , removal , then the conversation would be different. Yet asaṃbhūtim was chosen presently .

So , we can also look at the hymn just a bit differntly then 'manifest and non-manifest' and consider existing and not existing. Then there is a different view on this 12th śloka . It suggests that of appearences - that a person is destroyed (asaṃbhūtim) by death and takes delight in re-birth (saṃbhūtyām) - these two opposites are appearences.

The notion of opposites starts in the 9th śloka and continues to the 14th. The teaching is done by offering opposites for the reader to consider.

Hence one must look to these 6 verses overall to extract the maximium understanding from them.

praṇām

purnapragya

24 August 2010, 02:29 AM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté riverwolf (et.al)

I think think your post was for atanu , yet let me , if I may, contribute the following:

Note in the line 'ye 'sambhūtim upāsate' the proper rules of saṃskṛt are applied. Avagraha ( holding away) is applied in this verse i.e. the 'a' is held back , and not sounded.
Hence this word is asaṃbhūtim or asaṃbhūti , defined as 'non-existence' , some say non-becoming.

The last line has saṃbhūtyām which is sambhūti + yā . This sambhūti is defined as birth , origin , production i.e. 'risen or produced'; ya is enter , approach , arrive at ( plus many other definitons)

We can assume from asaṃbhūti of non-becoming as the Universal that is yet to manifest. From sambhūti we get risen or produced and can equate this to 'becoming' and the indication of the manifest.

Perhaps if the ṛṣi ( rishi) used the word vināśa now ( instead of in the 14th śloka) defined as utter loss , annihilation , perdition , destruction , decay , death , removal , then the conversation would be different. Yet asaṃbhūtim was chosen presently .

So , we can also look at the hymn just a bit differntly then 'manifest and non-manifest' and consider existing and not existing. Then there is a different view on this 12th śloka . It suggests that of appearences - that a person is destroyed (asaṃbhūtim) by death and takes delight in re-birth (saṃbhūtyām) - these two opposites are appearences.

The notion of opposites starts in the 9th śloka and continues to the 14th. The teaching is done by offering opposites for the reader to consider.

Hence one must look to these 6 verses overall to extract the maximium understanding from them.

praṇām
I think U interprete the sloka in view of saraswat class of sanskrite not Nirghantu class of vedic sanskrite.The manifestion when occured when there is difference,that mean non manifestation occured when also exist this veda,From purnapragya darshan both brahma and jivatma treated as manifestion of brahma but due to ignorence maddhacharya totally forget that emptiness is not occuered by manifestation,thus the main error of this isha upanishad.So it need thorogh knowledge on yaksh class of sanskrite with panini vasya.
Thanks

purnapragya

24 August 2010, 08:24 AM

Friends

The reason for these posts is to dispel the doubts that many students of Vedanta initially hold that the Unmanifest (asambhutim-prakriti) is the final goal being taught by Shankaracharya.

And many dvaita oriented criticisms (including from christians) of advaita are equally ignorant of this fact and criticise advaita on this ground that it teaches merging with darkness. Shankara teaches merging with amrata-the immortal, which is akshara.

I thought that a clarification was in order.

Om Namah Shivaya
Advaita stated that "Propancha" is false,Question arise falsehood of that "Propancha" either true or false?

yajvan

24 August 2010, 01:04 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233; purnapragya,

I think U interprete the sloka in view of saraswat class of sanskrite not Nirghantu class of vedic sanskrite.The manifestion when occured when there is difference,that mean non manifestation occured when also exist this veda,From purnapragya darshan both brahma and jivatma treated as manifestion of brahma but due to ignorence maddhacharya totally forget that emptiness is not occuered by manifestation,thus the main error of this isha upanishad.So it need thorogh knowledge on yaksh class of sanskrite with panini vasya.
Thanks

Thank you for your note... if you have interest, you can take a look at this string http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4677) where we have discussed īśāvāsya upaniṣad from multiple views. My intent in the post above was to offer one additional view. Yet I do see your point. IMHO if one only looks at verse 12, then the wisdom to the total message is lost. That is , I find no blemish in the īśāvāsya upaniṣad.

praṇām

atanu

25 August 2010, 02:20 AM

Would you mind elaborating on these? I.E., how you get vaykta (manifest bhuta; this world) from sambhutim, and avaykta (unmanifest prakriti; nature) from asambhutim? I do not speak any Sanskrit, so I don't understand the connections.

Also, were you trying to contradict me, or support what I had said?

Namaste Riverwolf

My post was in response to your following observation.

If you read the 14th verse, it basically states that the best understanding is the one that realizes that both the Personal and Impersonal are True.

Although, what you said was not wrong, yet, i wanted to emphasize that both the sambhuti and asambhuti are the gati -- the path, which take one to the akshara amrtm (imperishable immortal), the Self.

The purport is that in absence of Self there will be no manifest or no unmanifest. The asambhuti of deep sleep becomes sambhuti of dream and waking states and again the reverse. But the Self is the fixed common consciousness existing through these two states of manifestation or the unmanifest. I hope this brings clarity.

Om Namah Shivaya

Riverwolf

25 August 2010, 09:23 AM

Namaste Riverwolf

My post was in response to your following observation.

Although, what you said was not wrong, yet, i wanted to emphasize that both the sambhuti and asambhuti are the gati -- the path, which take one to the akshara amrtm (imperishable immortal), the Self.

The purport is that in absence of Self there will be no manifest or no unmanifest. The asambhuti of deep sleep becomes sambhuti of dream and waking states and again the reverse. But the Self is the fixed common consciousness existing through these two states of manifestation or the unmanifest. I hope this brings clarity.

Om Namah Shivaya

Sort of. The nature of the Self has always been somewhat difficult for me, other than its omnipresence.

yajvan

26 August 2010, 08:58 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233; riverwolf.

Sort of. The nature of the Self has always been somewhat difficult for me, other than its omnipresence.

In the beginning it is like that, a little fuzzy. It is like rain in the distance that is a mist, a drizzle. It is faint to the eyes, yet as you move closer you feel the coolness, you get more of the impression of the lightness on the face, yet the rain is still not visible. It is a matter of proxsimity. Like that , this Self is so subtle, yet there. One needs to keep progressing forward. The 'progress' is both knowledge and experience. Both work hand-and-hand.

Or(vā) Iti (in this manner , thus) he who has (yasya or endeavored) the realization (saṃvittiḥ ~ understanding) i.e. identity of his SELF with the whole universe (jagat) being constantly united (yukto) with the Divine (venā), views the entire world as the play (kriḍā) of the SELF with Śva, and is liberated while alive (jīvanmukto), there is no doubt (na saṃśataḥ) about that.

This aligns nicely with Śrī Rāmāna Mahaṛṣi ( offered by atanu some time back)

The Self is that where there is absolutely no “I” thought. That is called “Silence”. The Self itself is the world; the Self itself is “I”; the Self itself is God; all is Siva, the Self.

The identity of the SELF with the Universe with Śiva... a continuum of silence.

praṇām

words and References

saṃvittiḥ संवित्ति - knowledge , intellect , understanding ; perception , feeling , sense
yasya यस्य - to be endeavoured ( a conscientious or concerted effort toward an end)
jagat जगत् - the world, universe; also that which moves or is alive
yukto or yukti युक्ति - union , junction , connection , combination ; sum total; also mixture or alloying of metals
jīvanmukto - jīvanmukta जीवन्मुक्त - mancipated while still alive (i.e.liberated before death from all liability to future births
saṃśataḥ संशय without doubt ;uncertainty , irresolution, hesitation
sa स procuring , bestowing
kriḍāvenākhilam - kriḍ क्रीड् to sport, play; venā as vena वेन a Divine Being; khilam is work in process - I do not understand the application of this word in the sentence structure - all help is welcomed.Spanda-kārikā-s the Divine Creative Pulsation translated by Jaideva Singh ; original author is Vasugupta . Then his cela, Kallaṭa took to publizing this knowledge. The Spanda-kārikā-s are a perfect adjunct to the Śiva-sūtras

purnapragya

28 August 2010, 10:24 PM

Namaste Riverwolf

My post was in response to your following observation.

Although, what you said was not wrong, yet, i wanted to emphasize that both the sambhuti and asambhuti are the gati -- the path, which take one to the akshara amrtm (imperishable immortal), the Self.

The purport is that in absence of Self there will be no manifest or no unmanifest. The asambhuti of deep sleep becomes sambhuti of dream and waking states and again the reverse. But the Self is the fixed common consciousness existing through these two states of manifestation or the unmanifest. I hope this brings clarity.

Om Namah Shivaya
U never answer my question?
Thanks

atanu

28 August 2010, 11:07 PM

U never answer my question?
Thanks

Sorry purnapragya

I saw that you had asked about प्रपञ्च that went unanswered. Though I feel that you may know more than me, following is what i understand.

प्रपञ्च should not make one forget the source. प्रपञ्च should not make one forget that the प्रपञ्च itself and the taste, smell, sight, touch, understanding, motivation, and actions all arise due to the source. Scripture says that प्रपञ्च dissolves in Him and we experience that in deep sleep.

You may now kindly add your understanding.

Om Namah Shivaya

Kumar_Das

30 August 2010, 02:41 PM

I think you have written the second line wrongly. Is your 'sambhūtim equal to asambhūtim?

Om Namah Shivaya

Yes.

And sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thanks to atanu-ji and yajvan-ji for all your posts.

I think this upanishad contains the most important insight into God-realization. It can be interpreted in several ways - I believe it has several meanings embedded within it.

I have some questions myself.

Hope to discuss further in due time.

purnapragya

02 September 2010, 08:18 AM

Sorry purnapragya

I saw that you had asked about प्रपञ्च that went unanswered. Though I feel that you may know more than me, following is what i understand.

प्रपञ्च should not make one forget the source. प्रपञ्च should not make one forget that the प्रपञ्च itself and the taste, smell, sight, touch, understanding, motivation, and actions all arise due to the source. Scripture says that प्रपञ्च dissolves in Him and we experience that in deep sleep.

You may now kindly add your understanding.

Om Namah Shivaya
I never asked wat is "Propancha",but Ask the falshood of "propancha" is true or false?

atanu

02 September 2010, 08:37 AM

I never asked wat is "Propancha",but Ask the falshood of "propancha" is true or false?

Namaste

i dunno wat is wat. But i think i answered

"Scripture says that प्रपञ्च dissolves in Him ---".

Om Namah Shivaya

purnapragya

02 September 2010, 08:56 AM

Namaste

i dunno wat is wat. But i think i answered

"Scripture says that प्रपञ्च dissolves in Him ---".

Om Namah Shivaya

from Advaita its clear "Propancha" is just the illusion and the brahman is ultimate truth.So
I never asked wat is "Propancha",but Ask the falshood of "propancha" is true or false?