In my opinion, God is just an idea, just as atheism is too.
We have no proof that there is a God yet.
We have no proof that there is no God yet.
We do not have the power or technology to find out if a God exists or not, yet.

Atheism is as wrong or right as Deism.

In an Atheist's case, it's like saying for example "There is a crime and we have no evidence whether or not the defendant is guilty or not, so based on our value of innocent before proven guilty the defendant is innocent." Even though in reality, the defendant is guilty. In relation, this is because there is no evidence of a deity so you come to a conclusion that there is no God.

Atheism is like saying at this very moment of October 2010, we have the technology to disprove the existence of a God even though we haven't even step foot on Mars therefore God does not exist because there is no evidence.

Science is a blindfolded search for a black cat in a dark room.
Philosophy is a blindfolded search for a non-existent black cat in a dark room.
And religion is a blindfolded search for a non-existent black cat in a dark room, with people suddenly rejoicing and claiming "I've found it!"

I suppose if enough people believe in something it makes no difference (for them) if that thing really exists or not. Those people have each other and their rules and that's all they need in order to live a fulfilled life. Even if their principles are all based on fantasy and delusion - it works for them - it's a functional universe in itself. This applies to any religion really.

The only question is how far you as an individual are willing to go with this, meaning that if you can justify it towards yourself and your foreknowledge that you're living your whole life based on unprovable fiction and stories and dedicate your thoughts and actions (you whole existence) to things that are unlikely to exist in the way they are presented to you - or not.

I can't.

2000 years ago natural science was next to non-existent - people didn't know what to think of their environement because they had no comparisons - thatÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s where religion offered a helping hand - because by the time it rose to prominence people didn't know any better - but today we do and still so many of us believe in talking snakes and people walking on water - interesting isn't it?

but the bottom line is: reality is just as real as you want it to be - you're the last instance in judging that ;)

I suppose if enough people believe in something it makes no difference (for them) if that thing really exists or not. Those people have each other and their rules and that's all they need in order to live a fulfilled life. Even if their principles are all based on fantasy and delusion - it works for them - it's a functional universe in itself. This applies to any religion really.

The only question is how far you as an individual are willing to go with this, meaning that if you can justify it towards yourself and your foreknowledge that you're living your whole life based on unprovable fiction and stories and dedicate your thoughts and actions (you whole existence) to things that are unlikely to exist in the way they are presented to you - or not.

I can't.

2000 years ago natural science was next to non-existent - people didn't know what to think of their environement because they had no comparisons - thatÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s where religion offered a helping hand - because by the time it rose to prominence people didn't know any better - but today we do and still so many of us believe in talking snakes and people walking on water - interesting isn't it?

but the bottom line is: reality is just as real as you want it to be - you're the last instance in judging that ;)

except it is your belief... or your religion, that these things are false, which you have no proof of. You believe they are delusions, that doesn't mean they are. Very many people, including myself have had the existence of God undeniably proven to them. What is proof to one person often has no meaning to another.

Do you think its something that you can logically make sense of?

You believe in your own intelligence enough that you can't comprehend that there might be something way far beyond any comprehension you can ever even hope to have?

Do you have to settle every little thing you do not fully understand in a way you can understand before you believe something?

Do people get married after they work out every little fact and the +'s and -'s and understand their spouse perfectly and logically decide to marry with full understanding of every aspect? When something becomes personal, doubts or anything else thats difficult to understand or explain become less important.... you realize you do not know everything.

Are there many totally screwed up religions in the world that are totally false? yes...

Are there people who misuses religion or use the name even though they are totally wrong in their beliefs? of course...

people aren't perfect, and all types of things get misused. The truth is out there, you just have to listen and pay attention... and realize you will never be able to fully understand some things.

Some people have the religion of science and man... thinking that we are the most powerful intelligences, and we can eventually figure everything out... but they do not have any more answers than most religions... and they do not want to classify themselves as a religion even though they are. The most basic one that cannot answer... is where does existence come from? why does anything exist? They try to explain how things are, and how they change over time... but cannot explain something as simple as why time exists.

every person has their own religion, because every person's interpretation of religion is different. "organized religion" is composed of groups of people who's interpretations of religion are fairly similar.

you're own personal interpretation can be changed, and you should fight that as hard as you can. just do what you think is best.

whether or not god exists doesn't matter. The message that god sends is what really matters. I believe that the religious message is to try and be happy, productive, and help others do the same. So that's what I am going to try and do.

Sorry doh, I didn't want to trigger a discussion since it won't lead anywhere. I was just presenting my PoV.

You should know that I don't think that science has all the answers to our existence and that there are of course things that are so complex the human mind will never be able to understand them.

All I wanted to say is that the difference between religion and rational science is the fact that science doesn't promote unprovable explanations - science has it's theories - and clearly marks them as such - what science doesn't understand it won't claim to know. Science is based on doubt.

Many religions however do claim to know things which they can never prove.

I think Religion is one of the most ingenious inventions mankind has ever made.

Religion was meant to fill a gaping hole in the Human mind.
Every Human wants / does believe in something, may be it a God, Aliens, the saneness of their own Mind, a fellow Human or Star Trek.
Take out this giant piece of Emotions and Intellect and you would have an empty husk of a man, that has no real purpose in Life anymore.

Religion is a driving force behind the (current) Human Mind, and it was invented out of necessity to build up a stable Civilization.
Religion got corrupted by some of the following factors that built up over time, and got way out of control:
- only MY God is the real one, your God is a fake.
- the fear of burning in Hell if you are doing something wrong.
- the Power that a Cult or Religion gives an individual.
and so on.

While my main thoughts about Religions is that they were invented to stabilize Human Culture and give the greedy Human Mind something he wished for most (fear of death created the 'Heaven', a place where you will continue to exist forever, what could be better?), and to enslave and exploit Humanity; Religion should be something that you discover for yourself and it shouldn't be shoved down children's throats in a way you yourself see it.

Maybe 'Religion' wasn't the right for it from the beginning, it should be called 'Purpose of Being' or 'Condition of individual Minds'
(something like that :wink: )

Hello. Sadly, I am not active here on the Porting Team anymore, and therefore I cannot give support or answer questions to any of my posted Ports or posted topics.

In my opinion, God is just an idea, just as atheism is too.
We have no proof that there is a God yet.
We have no proof that there is no God yet.
We do not have the power or technology to find out if a God exists or not, yet.

Atheism is as wrong or right as Deism.

In an Atheist's case, it's like saying for example "There is a crime and we have no evidence whether or not the defendant is guilty or not, so based on our value of innocent before proven guilty the defendant is innocent." Even though in reality, the defendant is guilty. In relation, this is because there is no evidence of a deity so you come to a conclusion that there is no God.

Atheism is like saying at this very moment of October 2010, we have the technology to disprove the existence of a God even though we haven't even step foot on Mars therefore God does not exist because there is no evidence.

What I want to know is what cause the Big Bang and the only known solution is a being outside of time and space

devilhunter said:

I think Religion is one of the most ingenious inventions mankind has ever made.

Religion was meant to fill a gaping hole in the Human mind.
Every Human wants / does believe in something, may be it a God, Aliens, the saneness of their own Mind, a fellow Human or Star Trek.
Take out this giant piece of Emotions and Intellect and you would have an empty husk of a man, that has no real purpose in Life anymore.

Religion is a driving force behind the (current) Human Mind, and it was invented out of necessity to build up a stable Civilization.
Religion got corrupted by some of the following factors that built up over time, and got way out of control:
- only MY God is the real one, your God is a fake.
- the fear of burning in Hell if you are doing something wrong.
- the Power that a Cult or Religion gives an individual.
and so on.

While my main thoughts about Religions is that they were invented to stabilize Human Culture and give the greedy Human Mind something he wished for most (fear of death created the 'Heaven', a place where you will continue to exist forever, what could be better?), and to enslave and exploit Humanity; Religion should be something that you discover for yourself and it shouldn't be shoved down children's throats in a way you yourself see it.

Maybe 'Religion' wasn't the right for it from the beginning, it should be called 'Purpose of Being' or 'Condition of individual Minds'
(something like that :wink: )

Religion is an effective glue that holds society together (like how it worked for those Chilean miners)

theShadow said:

I imagine the corruption started during the middle ages with the catholic church as the ruling power.

Contrary to popular belief there was much learning in the Middle Ages and things like the scientific method were invented then (1256 IIRC).

PS there is always corruption in human organizations, it's called life

What I want to know is what cause the Big Bang and the only known solution is a being outside of time and space

That's not much of a solution, as that creates the problem of how that being came into existence.
Often this is solved by saying that that being 'just always existed'. However, this doesn't seem anymore likely than saying that the big bang 'just happened'.

For me all that god jesus and blah blah blah is fake, we will never know that god is real or fake. Some people are saying that we will have technology to find out is god fake or real but thats same thing if we will look for monsters under someones bed. Some people will look for reason that god is real and it will never finish and other people already know that it's fake. Billions of people is looking for something that tells that god is real, it will never finish, like 8, it will never finish, you could draw it and draw it and draw it and draw it. It will not finish. Why should we look at void if we have answer? Because people are obstinate.

Hrachya D.

Some people just don't listen. Just because you have no proof, doesn't mean that no one else has proof. What would prove it to you, isn't something that could be proof to everyone else. A relationship with God is very personal, its not something thats cut and dry and the same for every person. People who believe in God are not looking for proof that he is real, they already know he is.

Ok If you know that god is real just tell me how. Why you believe in god? How do you know that he exist?
And don't get mad at me, please.

I have a personal relationship with Jesus, I talk to him, and he talks to me. Does he "talk" like you and I in a voice like another person... no, but if you learn enough about him, and try to get to know him, you'll start to understand. Its not something you can explain to others that haven't ever experienced it... its much more complicated than words can describe, and overall is more complicated than the human brain could ever hope to fully understand.

Jesus loves everyone... God is available to everyone. God is not a human... people trying to personify him are just belittling him. To help us, to teach us, to interact with us, He sent His Son, which is himself really, to become a human, to interact with us, and tell about his love. Why do it in such a minor way... why not make himself known by just appearing in the sky and telling everyone directly and proving he is God? No one knows for sure, but I think its about love, and free choice. He want you to choose to love and follow him, not just have everyone so scared they have no choice in the matter they just do what he says. We weren't made to be His slaves... He gave us lives and total free will to do anything we want, even if its not what He wants.

He is waiting for you... he has done what he can to come to you, the rest has to be you coming to him. Most people do not listen enough to even hear him... but most hear, and don't understand, which is why they wonder about "gods" in the first place. He came to show you the way... and to show you he is willing to forgive your sins. He suffered at the hand of man, and was brutally killed... for you... and was that bad? yes... but nothing to the 3 days he was dead and in hell, being tortured so bad that even the word torture doesn't explain it... so bad that even if we experienced it we wouldn't even understand or be able to describe it.... worse than anything you can imagine... Those that accept his gift, will never have to experience that, he did it for you, because he loves you.... and I do mean you. Yes he did it for everyone, but he also did it for you... even if it was just you and you alone he needed to do it for, he still would have done it.

Is this, or why many things are the way they are fully understandable? no, not really... there are tons of "why" questions that even if we had the answers to them, we couldn't understand. We live most of our lives without ever fully understanding many things that we accept as true... but with so much today thats taken as fact, and mankind believing they are so intelligent, it makes people learn to be blind to many things, and easier to believe others that tell them there is no God.

well it's kinda difficult to answer your question!
cause if we knew for sure, there won't be all this fuss about it!
if i say he does exist
you will answer how do you know?
i can give you answers or examples but i'll just say i believe, and that's it! you have the right to believe he exists, and if it suits you that he doesn't you just say he don't.
that's the point here, it's unknown, so you still have the choice to pursue the knowledge of his existence.
just like knowing the future, if you knew the future there won't be any need to live to see it!
PS. if he made games playable on all platforms there won't be any need for the porting team, and we won't learn all these nice things ;)

I like to play:Strategy (Europa Universalis III, EU:Rome, Rome Total War) and some RPG (NWN, TES)

Posted 10 January 2011 - 12:08 PM

Sorry, but I feel the need to put some facts back into this conversation, as there seems to be many misconceptions about many things.

thedoctor45 said:

2000 years ago natural science was next to non-existent - people didn't know what to think of their environement because they had no comparisons - thatÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s where religion offered a helping hand - because by the time it rose to prominence people didn't know any better - but today we do and still so many of us believe in talking snakes and people walking on water - interesting isn't it?

Well, for a start, 2000 years ago, Greeks knew the earth was round and even calculated its circumference (they missed by a few thousand kilometers, but considering their technology level, it is still awesome). Medecine was being developped by the Egyptians and by the Greeks for a few centuries and they could save many more lives than during middle age and even renaissance. They developped theories about atoms and magnetics, they knew mathematics concepts that would take more than a thousand and a half years to rediscover. Do you know Greeks and Romans knew the steam engine by 1st century AD? (it was not used like it would be during the industrial revolution, but they did know it) They had a (arguably) low level of technology, but science and knowledge were better than what they would be for the 1000 years of the middle age. Of course, they weren't as "developped" as we are today, but they were certainly not retarded.

devilhunter said:

While my main thoughts about Religions is that they were invented to stabilize Human Culture and give the greedy Human Mind something he wished for most (fear of death created the 'Heaven', a place where you will continue to exist forever, what could be better?), and to enslave and exploit Humanity; Religion should be something that you discover for yourself and it shouldn't be shoved down children's throats in a way you yourself see it.

Maybe 'Religion' wasn't the right for it from the beginning, it should be called 'Purpose of Being' or 'Condition of individual Minds'

Religion comes from the latin "religere" which means "to link". Before the roman catholic church, religion was all about dealing with gods (I sacrifice you a cow, therefore I expect from you such and such), nothing more ; if you wanted ethics, morals and meanings to life, you had philosophy (stoic, neo-platonic, epicurian, etc). Christians came with that crazy idea to tie up jewish religion with stoician philosophy (and, as time went by, with a few other rituals from a few other "popular" religions or philosophies). Therefore, before roman catholics, religion was meant to link Romans to the other Romans (by following the same rituals) and to the gods.

Hrachya said:

For me all that god jesus and blah blah blah is fake, we will never know that god is real or fake.

Well, Jesus DID exist. The first texts that mention him are from pagans (Tacitus and Suetonius), they simply say something like "Christians were followers of Christos who died under the governorship of Pontius Pilatus", meaning they did some research (they probably looked into the imperial records to find that information). Now does that mean Jesus performed miracles? It's up to you, but the guy existed, without a doubt.

Since I talk about the early writings concerning Jesus, did you know the Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â gospels were written a the end of the first century AD? And of course, you probably heard about the discovery of the gospel according to Judas a few years ago, but did you know there were so many gospels in circulation that the Roman catholic church had to chose which gospel were to be made official, rejecting, among others, gospel according to Mary and gospel according to Pontius Pilatus. They still exist nowadays, but they're not part of the Bible.

Sithis said:

What I want to know is what cause the Big Bang and the only known solution is a being outside of time and space.

Of course, one of the arguments of the non-believers is : if God can appear out of nowhere, other things can appear out of nowhere too, so even if God exists, it doesn't mean he's the creator of everything.

theShadow said:

I imagine the corruption started during the middle ages with the catholic church as the ruling power.

Well, corruption started looong before the middle ages! By the end of the Roman empire, the message had changed a lot. Three centuries of persecution left many christians bitter and the message was a lot less "We forgive you" than "God will avenge us!" And I'm not even speaking about internal divisions that started as early as the fourth century AD (arianism, iconoclasm)!

Now, let's move on towards known proofs of the existence and non-existence of God (it needs to be mentionned that the "God" I'll talk about is a perfect being, like Christians', Muslims' and Jews' God(s), and not an "interconnected" group of objects, like in the stoic philosophy).

First, proofs (rather arguments) of the existence of God :

(shamelessly ripped from this site but there are many more here)
1) The argument from Design : If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed. Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.

2) The ontological argument : God is the perfect being. As He is most perfect, He must have all perfections. If God lacked existence He would not be perfect, as He is perfect he must exist.

3) The cosmological argument (God as "First cause") : Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.

4) Pascal's Wager : The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.) His argument goes something like this: God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures.If we do not believe in God and he does exist we may enjoy a few sinful pleasures, but we may face eternal damnation. If we do not believe in God and he does not exist then our sins will not be punished. Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?

Second, proofs (arguments) of the non-existence of God :

(shamelessly ripped and modified from this site and only selected my favorites)Empirical arguments
1) If God can prevent evil, but doesn't, then He isn't all-loving. If God intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then He isn't omnipotent. If God both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?

Deductive arguments
2) The argument from design claims that a complex or ordered structure must be designed. However, a god that is responsible for the creation of a universe would be at least as complicated as the universe that it creates. Therefore, it too must require a designer. And its designer would require a designer also, ad infinitum. The argument for the existence of god is then a logical fallacy with or without the use of special pleading. The argument points out that God does not provide an origin of complexity, it simply assumes that complexity always existed. It also states that design fails to account for complexity, which natural selection can explain.

3) The omnipotence paradox suggests that the concept of an omnipotent entity is logically contradictory, from considering a question like: "Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?" or "If God is all powerful, could God create a being more powerful than itself?".

4) (And my personal favorite) The argument from free will contests the existence of an omniscient god who has free will ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â or has allotted the same freedom to his creations ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â by arguing that the two properties are contradictory. According to the argument, if God already knows the future, then humanity is destined to corroborate with his knowledge of the future and not have true free will to deviate from it. Therefore our free will contradicts an omniscient god. Another argument attacks the existence of an omniscient god who has free will directly in arguing that the will of God himself would be bound to follow whatever God foreknows himself doing in eternity future.

Inductive arguments
5) The atheist-existentialist argument for the non-existence of a perfect sentient being states that if existence precedes essence, it follows from the meaning of the term sentient that a sentient being cannot be complete or perfect.

6) The "no reason" argument tries to show that an omnipotent and omniscient being would not have any reason to act in any way, specifically by creating the universe, because it would have no needs, wants, or desires since these very concepts are subjectively human. Since the universe exists, there is a contradiction, and therefore, an omnipotent god cannot exist.

7) The "historical induction" argument concludes that since most theistic religions throughout history (e.g. ancient Egyptian religion, ancient Greek religion) and their gods ultimately come to be regarded as untrue or incorrect, all theistic religions, including contemporary ones, are therefore most likely untrue/incorrect by induction. It is implied as part of Stephen F. Roberts' popular quotation: ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œI contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â

Well, now that I've exposed facts and arguments (and that you must begin to be bored to tears), what do *I* think?

Well, I don't believe in a perfect being creator of all things that knows all, sees all and is everywhere. I don't believe God is in everything, but, like the stoicians, I believe everything is in God, meaning I'm a part of God just like you, my chair, Uranus and everything else in the Universe ; in the same way my nails are part of me, along with each individual hair, skin cells, muscles, nerves, bones, etc.

This God is not perfect on the individual scale of its components, but it is, in its own way, when you consider the totality of it.

I'll stop here before I start my speech about stoician morals and values!

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4) (And my personal favorite) The argument from free will contests the existence of an omniscient god who has free will ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â or has allotted the same freedom to his creations ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â by arguing that the two properties are contradictory. According to the argument, if God already knows the future, then humanity is destined to corroborate with his knowledge of the future and not have true free will to deviate from it. Therefore our free will contradicts an omniscient god. Another argument attacks the existence of an omniscient god who has free will directly in arguing that the will of God himself would be bound to follow whatever God foreknows himself doing in eternity future.

A lot of info there... but most useless. Its people trying to understand God... God is so infinitely complicated compared to our thought processes, its beyond human ability to understand, thats why he tried to keep it simple with us probably.

but to the quote above, i hear that all the time and it makes absolutely no sense. Knowledge of something doesn't mean causation of something. If you went into the future 200 years, and saw everything that happens.... memorized it all, then went back 200 years and watched it all happen, does that mean you caused it to happen? No you just knew what would happen.

I like to play:Strategy (Europa Universalis III, EU:Rome, Rome Total War) and some RPG (NWN, TES)

Posted 10 January 2011 - 05:25 PM

doh123 said:

Its people trying to understand God... God is so infinitely complicated compared to our thought processes, its beyond human ability to understand, thats why he tried to keep it simple with us probably.

but to the quote above, i hear that all the time and it makes absolutely no sense. Knowledge of something doesn't mean causation of something. If you went into the future 200 years, and saw everything that happens.... memorized it all, then went back 200 years and watched it all happen, does that mean you caused it to happen? No you just knew what would happen.

The first part is a very logical and understandable answer : how can we comprehend something which is beyond our capacity of observation? It is, to me, the weakest spot of the argumentation of non-believers (a.k.a. : me).

As for the quotation, maybe I can explain it better. Let's start with two premises : God knows everything and God is above (or beyond) time. Therefore, God knows everything, even things that have not existed yet. He knows every single action and reaction from every single living being. Therefore, He already knows how I'll live my life, even before I'm born ; He knows how he'll judge me, even before I've acted : my life is already "written", so to speak. If this is so, where is my free will? Even if I decide to do good or evil to "take Him by surprise", He already knows, hence I have no free will of my own and He shouldn't judge me, because everything is already decided for me.

The second part of the quotation works pretty much the same way : if God knows everything and is above (beyond) time, He knows each and every of His own actions forever, making His life already written, so to speak, therefore removing Him His free will.

Still, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion and proving/disproving something with arguments doesn't make it so in real life.

If there is a problem with one of my wrappers, please let me know by posting on the game thread AND by sending me a pm.
If there are no problems, then a little "Thank you!" is always heart-warming!

I like to play:Mainly IOS games and stuff in STEAM but I will still dabble in any game that catches my fancy.

Posted 10 January 2011 - 05:41 PM

Anyone interested in learning more about Jesus based on real historic records and information, try watching the documentary 'A Case for Christ' on Netflix if you have it or read the book. Just keep an open mind while watching and see if it leads you to a true decision either way. That's what the author did himself and I commend him for it.

my life is already "written", so to speak. If this is so, where is my free will?

your life my already be written to how God sees it... but He isn't the one that wrote it.. you wrote it. From your perspective you're still writing it, but from Gods, its like He's in the future and already knows what you wrote. Its still your choices and free will no matter if He knows the ending of your book or not.

I like to play:Strategy (Europa Universalis III, EU:Rome, Rome Total War) and some RPG (NWN, TES)

Posted 12 January 2011 - 10:13 AM

doh123 said:

your life my already be written to how God sees it... but He isn't the one that wrote it.. you wrote it. From your perspective you're still writing it, but from Gods, its like He's in the future and already knows what you wrote. Its still your choices and free will no matter if He knows the ending of your book or not.

Alright, I can understand that point of view, but I can't adhere to it. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree! ;)

If there is a problem with one of my wrappers, please let me know by posting on the game thread AND by sending me a pm.
If there are no problems, then a little "Thank you!" is always heart-warming!