Zan Perrion on the podcast this week talking about his natural game mindsets towards women. For over 10 years Zan has been talking about his natural approach with women, explaining how to connect with them, and offering gems of advice on relationships.

He's been in longer and more stable relationships than most of the ex-pickup artists (although Zan would definitely not call himself a pickup artist, he was part of that community in its early days), and is definitely a 'lover of women'.

[Angel Donovan]: Hey, this is Angel Donovan and we’re here with another episode of Dating Skills Podcast. Today we have Zan Perrion with us. Hi Zan.

[Zan Perrion]: Hello. How are you doing?

[Angel Donovan]: Great. It’s great to have you on the call. Today’s discussion, we’re going to be talking about the female psychology, how to understand women, and all around that subject.

[Zan Perrion]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: So, what would you say is the main thing, like say the main three things that men get wrong about the psychology of women? Where do they slip up? If there are three main things in your…

[Zan Perrion]: Well, I’ll tell you the first thing that comes to mind is that men think that they can fool women, and with any kind of like, I don’t know, trying to come across as being confident or acting a certain way. But what they fail to understand, what they fail to realize, is that women have been reading faces their whole lives whereas men have not. Everything that women do since they’re little girls is in relationship to others. Men head towards objects and goals in life. Women do too, but they do it in the context of, how is this affecting my relationship with everyone around me? So women are fantastic at reading faces and intent and hidden agendas and motives, and we think we can fool women but they’re quite perceptive.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. I mean, obviously, there’s the discussion of sixth sense, and often we hear that related to women like historically. But with a lot of the science of the brain that’s come out recently, they’re actually saying that the part of the brain which women have for understanding faces, as you say, and immersions is much bigger than the guy’s brain.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, basically they can see in a lot more detail, just in the way that I guess guys, we’re incapable of understanding because we don’t have that level of detail of analysis going on in our heads with a smaller brain.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, like I remember a woman telling me one time that she could tell, and I’ve heard this from women all the time, that she can see a man’s entire belief system on his face when he walks up to her, and if he’s congruent with what he's really saying and if he’s really that guy that he’s trying to portray. And the secret of it is that women can sense if we’re being aligned with who we really are or if we’re just trying to play a game or trying to be cool or trying to be interesting, and yet they’re so used to that that they kind of look past it and try and see who’s the real guy there, and so we tend to find ourselves getting some measure of success in spite of that, and we think it’s because of that.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And I heard you say before that basically women are going along with it, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, kind of. Kind of, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: They kind of see this stuff but for other reasons they’re like, “Well, he isn’t actually being himself but there are other things about him I like, so I’m going to go along with this,” which gives like, I guess what your brain is that… we’ve got this sense of control where maybe it doesn’t really exist.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, and it doesn’t mean that women have these radar, accurate, laser-pointed, knowledgeable beams about men. Women are just as confused about men as men are confused about women, but they understand motives and intent, and where it goes from there they’re confused. They’re not sure if the guy might like them, for instance, but we can’t fool them when we try and come across… when we’re acting in a way, I guess you could say. They’ve seen it all before.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And what kind of situations are we talking about here? When are guys acting?

[Zan Perrion]: Well, I think if the guy tries to get up his nerve and sees a girl in a bar or somewhere, a lounge or something, and he walks up to her, he’s internally nervous and he’s trying not to be nervous and he’s trying to remember things to say so he doesn’t run out of things to say or come across as awkward, and he walks up to her and he’s trying to be cool or aloof or indifferent, and women can tell. Women can tell that underneath that he’s kind of nervous.

And the great thing about it is women actually are… I’ve heard this over and over and over again, women kind of like it when a guy is nervous because they feel nervous too. We can’t imagine that as men. But they kind of feel nervous too and it makes them a bit more human, and they don’t mind that. It’s actually kind of endearing to women when a guy’s nervous but he's up there trying to be interesting, trying to be cool, and they can see that underneath that he’s a good guy and his intentions are he’d love to see her, and they see that. And there are a lot of women out there that turn men away for sport as we notice.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Zan Perrion]: But there are a lot of great women out there that are sincere and see that and say, “You know what, I like the guy.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. I think from a guy’s side, like you’re talking about nervousness, if a girl isn’t showing any nervousness at all, I guess in a way we perceive that she’s not being as genuine with us. I’ve had these situations kind of come up before. So, from our side too, we like to see a bit of nervousness.

[Zan Perrion]: But what’s interesting is we never ever… we think it’s only us. We think women are beautiful and they have all the options and they’re the ones in control of handing out the prizes or not, and so we get the sense that women are always confident because they’re pretty and they have all this kind of stuff. And we’ll talk to a girl and we walk up to her and we’re trying to be interesting, trying to tell stories, trying to say something funny, asking her the questions, and she’s giving us yes/no answers or being very quiet and we’re not really engaging the conversation, we’re holding up our whole side of the conversation. And we walk away from that interaction thinking, “Oh, I wasn’t interesting enough for her. I didn’t engage on an emotional level. I should have been more funny.” But we never ever as men think that she was nervous too and didn’t know what to say, and that’s why she’s going, “Yes, no, I don’t know, I think so.” And this happens all the time, and men never ever imagine that she’s being kind of like quiet and not really engaging in this because she’s completely embarrassed and thinks she has nothing to say, nothing interesting.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree with you; however, you’ve been in this for a long time and I’ve been in it for a fairly long time too, and I think what I notice is, I mean, to me these things that you’re saying here are right, they all make complete sense to me and I understand them, but I have to say that it took me kind of a long time to get there.

[Zan Perrion]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: And I think the way it came out for me was just through a lot of experience, just through having seen stuff a lot and spent a lot of time with women and so on, and eventually it kind of clicked.

[Zan Perrion]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: But because of everything else you hear which goes against it, I guess it took longer to actually click. So could you talk a bit about...because I wouldn’t want anyone to go through the long process it took me. I figure it maybe took me seven years or something like that, right? Because I started in 2001.

[Zan Perrion]: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So how did you learn or how would you recommend that someone kind of makes this difficult mindset shift? Because it’s good to talk about it, but how do you click in your brain, because making that click in the brain isn’t so easy?

[Zan Perrion]: Well, I tell you, nobody ever wakes up in the morning and ta-da, they’re that guy that understands women. As you know, it’s… I have been a complete student of women for 25 years, and I’m fascinated by women and I still know nothing about women, and yet I know more than most, and you never really quite understand it. It’s like there’s still a fantastic mystery to us, which is great.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Zan Perrion]: And I think there is no substitute for experience. You can say or I can say to people… we can tell our stories, our personal stories and our experiences, and guys can gain a volume of insight from our stories and our lessons that we learned, and they can shortcut a whole bunch of it, but to really get the sense of the rhythm of women and to understand the language that women speak to each other and they’re trying to speak to us, it takes a lot of listening and trying to understand it. So this is why the stuff I’m trying to teach is so difficult. Like I’m not really a teacher. I’m not an instructor, and I’ve never really been. The only thing I am is I’m a philosopher, I guess, if you could say anything. I’m fascinated by the philosophy of women and I just keep talking about it and trying to understand it for myself. So, that’s kind of the way it is.

[Angel Donovan]: You just have to put in the hours and the time and spend more time with women at the end of the day.

[Zan Perrion]: Exactly. If you’re not moving around in the land of women, you’ll never understand women. You can theorize, you can take art theory for four years, but until you pick up the brush and start slopping paint around and messing up and like making terrible paintings to start… Theory has to be mirrored with a practical application, which means going out there and making a fool of yourself, making your mistakes, correcting it, congratulating yourself, forgiving yourself for everything because you’re just out there trying to do something cool.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah. So would you say… I mean, some other things you should be thinking about is like you should be curious about women, because I know when some guys are reading this dating advice and this pickup advice or whatever, they can see it… I’m taking like some of the worse analogies I’ve heard, is kind of like a war, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And you know, battle, and these kind of things that appeal to the psyche of men, right, for obvious reasons, testosterone and whatever. We love these kind of movies. I don’t think that really helps because rather than taking an interest and understanding the woman and seeing her as her friend and wanting to get closer to her, you’re kind of like seeing her as an enemy at the other side that maybe you seen in the bar when you go out to the battlefield rather than someone who’s actually part of your life. I’m taking the worst analogy to make a point here. So would you say one of the ways is just to be generally more curious and interested in women, and also just in terms of friends, not just like girlfriends but friends and girlfriends in every way, and really immerse yourself in the female world a lot more than you have done in the past, because I guess a lot of the men who had these biggest challenges have basically like grown up and maybe it’s been a very man-focus environment, you know?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, they haven’t had that time to basically learn from experience, naturally.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, I think a lot of us are standing over here and we see the women over in the other side of the abyss and we think, “Okay, how do we storm that fortress?” And it’s a great analogy, actually. I don’t even think it’s the worst one. I think it’s really apt to how men are seeing it today, it’s like they’re under siege, they don’t know their role anymore, and women feel like men will ride up to the walls and they’re met with arrows and boiling oil. And it hurts, that hurts, and so we learn that you can’t just do ride up. And we learn, we get conditioned that we have to conquer, we have to fight a battle, we have to try and revive something in ourselves. And it’s a product, of course, of our society, of our modern era, the way we are a disconnected era, and it’s just the way it is.

But the great thing is that… I guess what I kind of say to men is a great way of looking at it is this: Instead of measuring your success with women by the way they respond to you, in other words, if I walk up to a girl and she gives me a phone number or goes on a date with me or marries me or smiles at me or goes home and sleeps with me that night, we say that that’s success. And anything less than, say, the phone number, we say, well it didn’t work out so well and I wasn’t interesting enough and I failed again. We blame ourselves.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Zan Perrion]: But instead of measuring our success by the way a woman responds to us, instead measure success by the way we show up in the land of women. In other words, did I go and speak my truth to that girl? Did I say, “You look great and I like it and I would love to see you again?” If we measure success by how we show up and how we present ourselves, then we can never fail because we did our job as a man. I spoke my truth to that girl over there and she either gave me a phone number or she turned me away or she turned her back on me, but at least I did my job. The ball is in her court. So I am successful as any man has ever been.

And instead we’re having a random girl that we’ve never met before affect our day, our week. She can turn her back on us and say, “Get lost, leave me alone,” and we let that girl live rent-free in our head, and she’s just a girl. We did our job as a man and we spoke our truth, and so we have 100% success in knowing that I did my job as a man. Now women have their own work to do.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, and you’re talking about I guess it’s living by our own standards, by our own measures rather than being, how would you say, socially, externally influenced. Because I think a lot of us focus on phone numbers and, of course, sleeping with women and so on and all the reports that people write up and post.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: It comes from talking to other guys about it, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: It’s kind of like the trophies to show off to the external world; however, I mean, if we dig deep… let’s try and be really truthful and honest here, right? For most of those guys when… they got the phone number, fair enough. I understand a lot of guys, like they, you know, it was done good. But I think, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of guys and after they’d slept with a woman, if it hasn’t been something that they’ve lived by their own standards and doing it the right way, then they actually feel hollow and bad afterwards, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And I guess they start questioning themselves, but often that they won’t talk to other guys about that. They’ll say, “Hell yeah… ”

[Zan Perrion]: That’s true. That’s right. Go ahead.

[Angel Donovan]: No, no, I was finished.

[Zan Perrion]: It’s like guys are not bad. Guys are sincere. Guys really want to have an interesting interaction and relationships with women. And there's a suspicion underlying all of the things about men.

And women are not bad either. Of course there are manipulative and bitchy and negative women just like there's the same in men, but women are not bad either. Women are actually cheering for men. Women want us to be successful. They’re on our side. And yet we have this notion that we do our war reports with each other. That’s essentially what it is, our battle plans and try and share each other the successes and failures.

And the reason is because in this modern age, there are no messages for men. We didn’t have fathers who say, “Son, that’s a woman over there and this is how you handle it. This is how you treat that woman. You can have it.” So we’re inventing it ourselves from our peers, from boys who grew up without knowledge, and we’re just trying to invent a theory about women out of nothing.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And obviously this stuff isn’t actually that old. It’s like 10 years old or what was it like, late nineties when this first started, so I think many, many people haven’t gone through the whole process of getting involved with it and then getting kind of like to the other side when they stop thinking more about, “Okay, so I went through a whole process and I started doing this stuff and I got some success and blah, blah, blah, and what impact did that actually have on my life satisfaction or how satisfied I was with it?” And I think the stuff we’re talking about generally starts to happen at the back end of the process. I don’t know what your thoughts are.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah. Well, I agree with that. I think, like I said, there’s no substitution for just getting out there and showing up in the land of women and taking… and that's the way it is. I think that the problem is that men have what I call a cloud of horniness obscuring their vision. They’re horny and they’re not getting the quality or the quantity of sex that they would like to have in their life, which is the way it is right now, and so they have this real kind of desperation around them. And so every woman that looks reasonably shaped and is kind of pleasant, they think that’s the one, and they launch themselves to order and hope and hope and hope, and wish and wish and wish, and contact her and contact her and contact her, and when it doesn’t work out or it disappears or she doesn’t respond or she responds and she flakes, then they just pick that up and that horny neediness and put it towards someone else. And if we could erase that cloud of horniness somehow, we would only be drawn to the ones that would really be drawn to us, is how I kind of feel, you know.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Zan Perrion]: So we wouldn’t be chasing and chasing and chasing and chasing and we’re constantly chasing.

[Angel Donovan]: So how do we erase this horny cloud? Because I know exactly what you’re talking about.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, I know you do. How do we… this horny cloud?

[Angel Donovan]: I think what happens is like… I think naturally where they kind of dissipate… I don’t know if you’ve read like Napoleon Hill stuff.

[Zan Perrion]: No.

[Angel Donovan]: He's a self-help guru from…

[Zan Perrion]: … Think and Grow Rich, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, Think and Grow Rich, very well-known. He's got a very good book out, Outwitting the Devil, which has only just been published for some strange reasons, but that’s also very good. And he actually talks about the sexual aspects of our energy, and I really think he’s talking about this subject because his idea is that we can’t do well in business until this cloud of horniness is gone.

[Zan Perrion]: That’s interesting. That is great. That I would like…

[Angel Donovan]: And that was written a 100 years ago. [Laughs]

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s true. I think it’s really true. We cannot really be dynamic and authentic and open and clear in our relationships unless we can kind of scrape that away from our eyes.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Zan Perrion]: And how? A combination of experience, time, and thinking and asking ourselves our own internal journey, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, I think we have to keep asking ourselves, as you say, like, I think it’s, if I’m not happy, why am I not happy, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: Because I think we kind of try to put it off, you know, as we do with most things. We try to avoid it or it’s just like, “Oh, it’s fine, maybe I didn’t enjoy that so much but it’ll be good next time,” but really kind of try and think about why we’re feeling bad if we’re feeling bad and we’re not feeling satisfied and so on. Basically, it’s hard to ask these questions to yourself, so it’s to be kind of fearless and delving into your psyche that way I guess.

[Zan Perrion]: … And there’s no substitution. I’m going to tell you this. This whole multibillion dollar self-help industry is out there. You read another book and you take another seminar and you tape another affirmation onto your mirror and it’s not enough. I tell you, like the real truth for men is that if they want to have big changes in their life, they have to take big measures. The way I say it is this: Every great life has had in it a great renunciation.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Zan Perrion]: There’s no way around it. No way around it. You have to go on a journey. You have to go and renounce the way it is. You’re working a job you hate, you’re hanging around people that don’t inspire you, you’re going to a church that beats you up every week, and then we wonder why. We read another book and think, yeah, we have the answer right there, but we don’t actually take the changes. And the only real answer for men, and most people will not heed this call, is to go and fight for your life and go and scare yourself and go into the world.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Zan Perrion]: You were in UK, now you’re in Thailand right now. That’s something that is… in itself that creates something in you that is strong.

[Angel Donovan]: Sure, sure. Like I’d recommend everyone travel. I’ve been doing this since I was 11 years old actually, so it was easy for me. My parents did it to me. But for other guys who… I just met a guy last week. He left when he was 28 years old, and I admire that because I know it’s difficult to jump out of your comfort zone like that.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, it is. Yeah, it really is.

[Angel Donovan]: And that really shows. Yeah, and I like this idea of renunciation. There was this guy I was listening to earlier, he’s called Eric Thompson. He really put it the way I think… very clearly. He said you should be able to sacrifice the person that you were for the person that you want to be.

[Zan Perrion]: That’s great. Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Basically, you just have to let go of everything because otherwise you can’t like move on and…

[Zan Perrion]: No. We try and we read another book and we memorize a few things and we say that that’s the answer, but it isn’t the answer. It’s not enough to just sit and to do another thing like that. It’s not enough. You must scare yourself and take big changes or you don’t get the sense of strength and passion and danger in your heart that is needed to make us stand on the earth. That’s the way it is.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Just action, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Action.

[Angel Donovan]: You just have to take that action.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah. We’re waiting to save up money or we’re waiting to get this done first or to… and all of that waiting, it just takes us right to our grave and there’s no point in any of it.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, totally. Fortunately, as we get older we start to sense the passage of time more and we get more stressed about it, and I think it pushes more of us to action. I don’t know.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, hopefully that helps. Okay, so one of the other things like I know you’ve talked about a bit is why women cheat or have affairs or they leave their boyfriend or husband. Because I know some people, like there are a few different examples. Of course, the fear, like guys always have a fear that their girlfriend is going to cheat on them and that makes them insecure and can sometimes actually drive her away. Obviously, that’s not cool and not good. And there are also guys on the other side who get jaded because they’ve been with a lot of girls who have cheated on their boyfriends or had affairs and stuff, and they don’t believe in women anymore, right? And they get back to seeing the enemy thing versus the friend, so that kind of sabotages you in a different way. So, what are your thoughts on it?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, I think, you know, of course you’ve got both men and women that just look at things in a very trite way in that they don’t really care, and so they’ll sleep around or they’ll do that kind of thing just because they don’t really care. But then we wonder about like, say, a housewife with two children who’s been married for 10 years and she has an affair, and we moralize and we hypothesize and say how is this possible, what is she thinking, she would give up all that for some random fling with a stranger? And we don’t understand it.

But the truth is it’s same for men as women. We need adventure and passion in our life, and if we don’t feel it… we need it as much as we need air and water. We need to feel that we’re living, that we’re alive and breathing and like… something exciting for our lives, and if we men don’t feel it or women don’t feel it, they almost have to reach out to find it, to get that sense back in their lives. We think, she doesn’t really want to sacrifice her wonderful husband and her children and she doesn’t want to leave them. She doesn’t want to ruin that home or what she has. She loves him, but there’s something almost innate in the nature of woman that without that kind of passion to kind of sweep off her feet she feels like dead, just like if we don’t have adventure we feel like our lives are completely dead. It’s almost… and I’ll get attacked for saying this, it’s almost inevitable that women cheat and inevitable that men cheat because of the way it’s constructed.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I guess it’s interesting because one of my ex-girlfriends has, like I’ve just been thinking about this lately, is she’s about to get married, but I think it’s pretty obvious that she’s settling on some level.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, okay.

[Angel Donovan]: She’s not happy about something, so I can see in three years or maybe in less it’s going to, you know, go downhill.

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Do you think it happens from the start or is it something that happens to some relationships that kind of erode over time? Have you got any ideas about…

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Because this could kind of help guys in their own relationships. If they’re thinking about this, “Okay, I don’t want to have a relationship with a girl that kind of ends up that way,” right?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah. You know, I think, Angel, it’s… I think when we enter in a relationship we’re very excited and optimistic. We’re hopeful that it’s going to be the real thing. And imagine if love was a business venture and it failed so miserably, how many of us would invest in that business? It feels so spectacular, and the next time we meet a girl or she meets a guy, we think, “Well, maybe this time, maybe this time,” even though we thought this last time and it failed so spectacularly.

So, I think there is hope for guys, like there is a measurement of both sides saying, “Okay, well, I just want to get a wife or a husband and get this going,” or even a girlfriend, retain a girlfriend for a long time because there’s nothing better come along for instance. And I think we have that sense of settling or the relationship could be very optimistic and very strong and we really believe we want this, but it does erode over time. The problem is that we make long-term promises on short-term feelings, and that’s what happens.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. [Laughs] Doesn’t sound really optimistic, but yeah, I see where you’re coming from. I believe if you work at it that you can create a good environment, but it does take work…

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah, it’s like it has to be this certain way and we have to construct it this way or it’s not right, and we build a box that contains our relationship and we throw all of our hopes and dreams and our baggage and our mistrust and our history with other people and throw it all into this box, we climb in with the other, and we close the lid. And it’s like after three years you feel like you just want to kick the end of the box and get out of there because it’s… society says create this box and put it in this construct as opposed to just living freely with each other and loving each other and saying, “I love you today and I’d love to see you again tomorrow.” And I think that the other person has to almost be free to leave before they can actually really authentically stay, and that’s hard for us to do.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, totally. And I think this is where the piece of hope is, is that it’s kind of like about selection, right?

[Zan Perrion]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: If you’ve worked on yourself to the point where you have these mindsets and you’re open and you’re willing to work on things and talk about them straight and not hide things, which obviously causes damage over time because these bad feelings are just frustrating, so if you’re willing to work on it and you find someone who has that openness and that self-awareness, they kind of get that too. That is the situation I think which things can work out.

[Zan Perrion]: You know, Angel, you hit exactly right. I’m convinced that the only way a relationship can last is if they are both… that both the man and the woman are on a spiritual journey. And by spiritual, I mean the whole grand aspect of that, like trying to understand themselves, maybe taking tango lessons or trying to be more excellent in their lives as opposed to just watching the TV and going through the routine. If they are both on their own personal spiritual journey, it can last forever, and that’s the only way.

So like you said, once you’ve embarked on that journey of trying to understand yourself and trying to come to terms with who you are and she is as well, that relationship can last forever because you’re moving toward your own individual sense of excellence, which brings the relationship… because we think two shall become one and we think that man and woman are now one in this relationship, but really there’s the man with his aspirations and there’s the woman with her aspirations, and then there’s the relationship which is a third entity completely. It’s its own living, breathing thing.

And so I think the only answer for any sense of longevity in a relationship is if they’re both on a journey of excellence for their lives, and that’s the only way it works. If one or the other is not, or both, and they’re just paying the bills and going through the routine, raising a couple of kids, the relationship is already dead, and even if they stay together for 60 years, it’s like a dead relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. Because, basically, if you lose your spark for life, then you can’t have a spark in a relationship.

[Zan Perrion]:Yeah. Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: It’s just those things don’t exist, like unless… it can’t exist, one without the other. Great. Well, Zan, this has been a great interview. Really enjoyed it. Great talking to you. Thanks for all the advice. So, for the listeners out there, on the page of the podcast you’ve got links to Zan’s website, you’ve got links to all of his products and everything he’s been up to. Zan, I just want to say thanks for putting this time out there. I know you’re having a lot of fun in Bucharest right now.

[Zan Perrion]: [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: I got that right. I said he was in Budapest earlier.

[Zan Perrion]: No, in Bucharest. I was in Budapest two weeks ago. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: That’s where the confusion is. I needed to hear that.

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