Pascal's wager is the stupidist thing I have ever heard. This is from update.uu.se

Missing possibilitiesThe main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation. It only calculates with two options when there are, in fact, at least four alternatives: The christian God and afterlife, some other god and afterlife, atheism with afterlife, and atheism without afterlife. Therefore Pascal's wager is invalid as an argument. Avoiding the wrong hell problemBecause of the multitude of possible religions, if any faith is as likely as the other, the probability of the christian being right is P=1/n where n is the number of possible faiths. If we assume that there is an infinite amount of possible gods (i.e. ideas of gods), the probability of you being right is infinitely small. Because Pascal's wager fails to tell us which god is likely to be the right one, you have a great probability that you picked the wrong religion and go to some other religion's version of hell. This is referred to as the "avoiding the wrong hell problem"

Worse hells and greater heavensPascal's wager is the product of the gain from a certain belief and the probability that it is the correct one (in Pascal's reasoning 50-50, but as mentioned above the probability is much less.) such as Win=Gain*P. This leads us to the conclusion that we should pick the religion with the worst hell and the greatest heaven. In that case we should chose to worship the Invisible Pink Unicorns (IPU) because they have an infinite bad hell and an infinitely wonderful heaven, unless, of course we can show that the probability of the existance of an IPU is exactly zero, i.e. you can prove for certainity that they don't exist. If it is only close to zero we still have infinite gain/loss since infinity times any positive value is still infinity. Atheist alternativesThe argument is based on the false assumption that atheists don't gain anything efter they die. Most atheists don't believe that they do, but there are other possibilities than just going to heaven vs ceasing to exist, such as progression to a better plane, or hanging around as ghosts. Neither of those require the existance of gods to be possibilities. Detesting life?An example of a widespread atheist view on life after death is the Buddist belief in reincarnation. Personally I would suggest that this is the bet that gets the most gain, since it lets you play again, and again, and again... for eternity. Theists may say that the gain from heaven is greater than the gain from life on earth, so their faith is a better bet than belief in reincarnation. But they miss the point that living for eternity will give you infinite gain as long as the gain is positive, because infinity times any positive number is still infinity. Even infinity times infinity is still infinity, so the only possibility that would give theists better gain than Buddists is if the gain from life on earth is negative or exactly zero. Therefore you have to detest life and the world for the argument to be valid.

Blasphemy worse than un-beliefBelieving in the wrong god has one additional problem. Most religions assure you that blasphemers will be more severely punished than un-believers. Once again, if we calculate with the rest of the possible gods, the chance of you being wrong is P=1-(1/n) so you both run a bigger risk than the atheist of being punished and risk the greater punishment. The loss from religionPascal also made the incorrect statement that you would lose nothing from believing if you are wrong. This is not true either. Assume that you are wrong in being a theist. You will waste a lot of time and energy on going to church, praying and religious rituals. Imagine if all the energy that,throughout human history, had been wasted on such activities had been used to improve the world instead. Then maybe we would have had heaven here on earth instead. Imagine if all that energy had been used for science, arts and music. OK, there have been many christians who have devoted their life to that, but imagine how wonderful things they would have been able to do if they hadn't wasted their time on prayers and rituals. Imagine what Pascal could have done for mathematics and physics if he hadn't left science for God.

Considering what religious belief has done to the world, it would be better if there was no religion. Religion is like a virus that changes people's minds into dogmatic thinking, rule following, and blind faith, qualities which do no good for the well-being of mankind. Consider how many people who have been burned, mutilated and tortured in the name of religion. Wouldn't it be better if we left the Dark Ages for once!?

Believing what is probableThe process of belief is not a bet, not based on hope for reward or fear of punishment. Normally you believe in something your sences tells you is likely to be true. No intelligent person would be convinced that god exists from Pascal's wager, and I question that this argument really was the reason why a genious like Pascal believed in god. I rather see it that he had lost the basis for his faith and that Pascal's wager was the last thread to keep him hanging on to christianity. Argument for theists onlyPascal thought that theism and atheism were equally likely - that is, we cannot know which of the philosophies is correct. This is non-information, and, according to information theory, it is impossible to get information from non-information without any cost. Therefore it is impossible to conclude, from the assumption, that theists will gain more than atheists and the statement that if god exists you gain from believing in him must also be an assumption - not a conclusion. So what Pascal's wager basically says that "If you believe in God, you will believe that you gain from worshipping him". Not a very convincing argument for atheists. God rewarding only true believersThe christian god is supposed to be omnipotent. If so, he will know who are the true believers and who worship him only to be on the safe side. Therefore it is not likely that a person who worships God because of Pascal's wager will go to heaven. This is sometimes called the Atheist version of Pasca'sl wager, since it says atheists will be better rewarded than theist hypocrites, and thus if you do not believe in god, you shouldn't lie and say you do. Is god just?Now if there is a god, and he is just, he would not send kind atheists to hell only because they can't believe in him. A just god judges people for who they are, not for what their minds tell them is likely to be true or not. Therefore a just god would still save atheists if they were good people. Like someone once said, "I would love to go to hell and meet people such as Einstein, Darwin, Russell and Voltaire." Is it really likely that these people were sent to hell, only because their great minds didn't find any evidence of the Christian god? In that case the word "just" is not applieable to god, and such a god is not even worth worshipping. To worship such a god would be like worshiping your worst enemy because you were afraid of his revenge if you didn't submit to his power.

Theists being punished for their sins.I don't think there is an agenda in christianity that you are being rewarded for mere worshipping god. I think it is far more common among theists to believe that god rewards you for what you really are. In other words, God won't reward you for helping people if you do it only to please God, but he will if you do it out of compassion. Therefore it is quite likely that false people, who only worship god because they fear hell, or because they think it is the bet that gives the most gain, will go to hell. So believing in god and being a bad person will be as bad as being an atheist, if not worse because God mightn't like being surrounded for eternity by cringing hypocrites. EconomicsThe original version of Pascal's wager fails to handle probabilities, since it states that both theism and atheism are equally reasonable. The problem with that approach is, as stated above, that it makes information out of no information, and hence is invalid as an argument. For the argument to be valid you will have to consider the probabilities of theism being right and the loss/gain from holding a religion. In order to convince an atheist, with Pascal's wager, theists need to convince him that there probably is some supernatural force, and that that supernatural force probably doesn't treat atheists the same as people of his religion, that that supernatural force probably doesn't treat people of his religion worse than atheists, and that either the probability of theism being right or theists reward is high enough to overcome the cost of following his religion in this life.

Pascal's wager alone just doesn't cut it, you need to provide evidence of the supernatural, and reasons to think that the supernatural significantly rewards people of your religion, if you really want to convince people with the Pascal's wager logic.

If I'm wrong, then I am wasting my time debating with you. If atheists are wrong, they will face the judgement of a perfect, omnipotent, and omniscient God with nobody to defend them.

The choice is yours, but the stakes are high. You had better be absolutely sure you are right!

Of course, the always popular fear tactic. It always comes to that. Most religions must threaten with fear of fire and brimstone to keep their beloved flocks in line. Sequester free thought and tow the dogmatic line in this life so one can be saved for eternity in the next. What a load of bunk.

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There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.-- Bernie Katz

If I'm wrong, then I am wasting my time debating with you. If atheists are wrong, they will face the judgement of a perfect, omnipotent, and omniscient God with nobody to defend them.

The choice is yours, but the stakes are high. You had better be absolutely sure you are right!

Of course, the always popular fear tactic. It always comes to that. Most religions must threaten with fear of fire and brimstone to keep their beloved flocks in line. Sequester free thought and tow the dogmatic line in this life so one can be saved for eternity in the next. What a load of bunk.

I'm not trying to scare you.

Belief in Jesus doesn't mean that you must "Sequester free thought and tow the dogmatic line in this life".

Belief in Jesus doesn't mean that you must "Sequester free thought and tow the dogmatic line in this life".

So I take it you reject Jesus?

Your choice. Your loss.

With out the fear of satan, hell, eternal damnation, etc., etc., etc., you wouldn't have a religion.

My choice, my gain. I live my life without the fear of some invisible evil force about to burn me asunder for something I may or may not have done during my life. I've lived my life ethically and by the golden rule, while I've watched religion rip the rest of my family apart. If that's god's love, I want no part of it. When I die, I die. Period. The end. I've no need to fear death. It's a biological certainty for all of us. Belief in a mythical afterlife is a time-wasting delusion of those who live in fear.

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There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.-- Bernie Katz

Belief in Jesus doesn't mean that you must "Sequester free thought and tow the dogmatic line in this life".

So I take it you reject Jesus?

Your choice. Your loss.

With out the fear of satan, hell, eternal damnation, etc., etc., etc., you wouldn't have a religion.

My choice, my gain. I live my life without the fear of some invisible evil force about to burn me asunder for something I may or may not have done during my life. I've lived my life ethically and by the golden rule, while I've watched religion rip the rest of my family apart. If that's god's love, I want no part of it. When I die, I die. Period. The end. I've no need to fear death. It's a biological certainty for all of us. Belief in a mythical afterlife is a time-wasting delusion of those who live in fear.

Well, I think i just found out that we have something in common.I live my life without fear also.

Why bother to live ethically at all? When you die, it won't matter anyway. (In your view, you die and that's it. In my view, you die and end up in hell no matter how many good things you've done because you rejected Jesus)

As for the whole 'love of God tearing families apart' bit...

That would be the hate of humans. Jesus still loves them, and He still loves you.

As for this whole conversation, we might as well consider it over. You obviously won't change, no matter what facts I point out to you.I will never change, because you have given me no reason too.

The end. (Unless, of course, you want to have the last word, which I suppose you do.)

Why bother to live ethically at all? When you die, it won't matter anyway.

Dying negates any effect your life has had? This is the logical conclusion of your statement.

As an Atheist it's true I needn't live ethically, yet I choose to. Since this is the only life I'll ever have, I'd like it to have a positive effect. It's true, there are no consequences waiting for me when I die, I do not see how that negates morality though.

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

And apparently you believe that every Christian in the world follows every command in the Bible without fault?

Just because religion was the reason your father tore your family apart does not mean religion tore your family apart, it means your father tore you family apart.

I could go out right now and break a window in the name of Christianity. Would Christianity have broken that window. NO. I would have. (Hypothetically speaking).

the what!!?? Would you mind explaining exactly what you meant by that? (with sources, naturally)

Maybe "goal" was the wrong word.

I found an article (sadly, with no references that I could find) that gives instances of St. Augustine stating coercion using "great violence" was justified , St. Thomas approving of burning people alive, and Justinian making laws against heretics, Jews and others. The article gives examples of people, even other Christians, being killed by church leaders.

The Corpus Juris is full of laws against paganism (apostasy was punished by death, 10 c., "De pag.", I, 11), Jews, Samaritans (who began a dangerous revolt in 529), Manichaeans, and other heretics. The decrees of the four general councils were incorporated in the civil law. There was no toleration of dissent. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Justinian_I

There are quite a few people who have the right idea about the existence of God, but got everything else wrong. The point I was trying to make was that Christianity actually grew during the first century after Jesus' death (and resurrection), despite the efforts of many to extinct it. Apparently death was not enough to make the early Christians recant their beliefs. Why would someone who had only heard of Jesus and acknowledged Him as Lord yesterday refuse to deny Him while facing being burned at the stake?

Why is Christianity so strongly persecuted? Even if Christians are wrong, belief in Jesus doesn't harm anything.

And you are one of the lucky ones who knows they have the "right" idea of god? The 9/11 bombers were certain enough to follow through with death. What does that say about Allah? When are Christians being strongly persecuted? Certainly not in the U.S. Having your beliefs questioned and giving answers that line up with reality isn't persecution.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 11:06:11 AM by Dkit »

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"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

And apparently you believe that every Christian in the world follows every command in the Bible without fault?

Just because religion was the reason your father tore your family apart does not mean religion tore your family apart, it means your father tore you family apart.

I could go out right now and break a window in the name of Christianity. Would Christianity have broken that window. NO. I would have. (Hypothetically speaking).

Why does God not correct those who claim he supports what they do? He used to in the magical days of the Bible.

Why do you try not to sin/beg for forgivness if you do not fear the repercussions?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

The unfortunate fact is, the worse Christians act, the more likely it is that someone will make the wrong choice based on these actions.

Which choice is that?

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Hmmm. You don't want to go on record as stating what the 'wrong' choice is. Interesting.

I don't want to put words into your mouth by suggesting that you think that any choice besides christianity is wrong. (Though you seem to want me to do so, perhaps to retain the 'I never said that!' argument) I think it's impolite to assume I know what you're thinking. Apparently, that's just me being 'stupid'.

I'll ask a different question, then.

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Why not? I could just become a serial killer...

Just to be clear:Your moral code is not based on the threat of not getting into heaven. Eternal hellfire would not be a punishment for you. Neither would being with God be a reward to you. You don't care either way.

You follow your moral code because you see no reason to not follow your own moral code. (the 'Why not?' argument)

Without your personal moral code, becoming a serial killer has no downside.

Is this what you are saying?

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

You obviously won't change, no matter what facts I point out to you.I will never change, because you have given me no reason too.

But if some human being does give you a reason to change, you will? You'll deny God because of what some human being said?

What would it take for you to deny God?

Or do you mean simply that you will never change, period?

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Hmmm. You don't want to go on record as stating what the 'wrong' choice is. Interesting.

I don't want to put words into your mouth by suggesting that you think that any choice besides christianity is wrong. (Though you seem to want me to do so, perhaps to retain the 'I never said that!' argument) I think it's impolite to assume I know what you're thinking. Apparently, that's just me being 'stupid'.

I'll ask a different question, then.

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Why not? I could just become a serial killer...

Just to be clear:Your moral code is not based on the threat of not getting into heaven. Eternal hellfire would not be a punishment for you. Neither would being with God be a reward to you. You don't care either way.

You follow your moral code because you see no reason to not follow your own moral code. (the 'Why not?' argument)

Without your personal moral code, becoming a serial killer has no downside.

Is this what you are saying?

Eternal hellfire would indeed be a punishement for me or any other human being who has ever been on existence who has reached the age where they understand that they need to accept Jesus and fail to do so.

My moral code is based on the promise of eternal life in heaven.

That is also why I follow my moral code.

Without Jesus forgiving sins, Mr. I have morals but reject Jesus and Mr. I like to kill people for fun are both unforgiven in their sins.

The unfortunate fact is, there are quite a few people who think they are getting to heaven based solely on their good deeds.

Needless to say, every human on this planet will sin in their lifetime.

Hellfire is the punishment for sin.

Only Jesus can forgive your sins. Will you accept Him?

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I don't want to put words into your mouth by suggesting that you think that any choice besides christianity is wrong.

Any choice that does not involve accepting Jesus as your savior is wrong. (Just for the record, I did not make that up.)

Why do you try not to sin/beg for forgivness if you do not fear the repercussions?

you do fear the repercussions, you've just put the positive spin on it.

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Only Jesus can forgive your sins. Will you accept Him?

Absolutely not, I will reject Him forever. Happily, joyfully, with all my heart.

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Any choice that does not involve accepting Jesus as your savior is wrong.

Thank you for being willing to go on record with this opinion.

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

And apparently you believe that every Christian in the world follows every command in the Bible without fault?

Just because religion was the reason your father tore your family apart does not mean religion tore your family apart, it means your father tore you family apart.

I could go out right now and break a window in the name of Christianity. Would Christianity have broken that window. NO. I would have. (Hypothetically speaking).

The religion approved of my father's actions. They approve of not having any relationships with unbelievers. This is a common practice, my family is not an exception.

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

And apparently you believe that every Christian in the world follows every command in the Bible without fault?

Just because religion was the reason your father tore your family apart does not mean religion tore your family apart, it means your father tore you family apart.

I could go out right now and break a window in the name of Christianity. Would Christianity have broken that window. NO. I would have. (Hypothetically speaking).

The religion approved of my father's actions. They approve of not having any relationships with unbelievers. This is a common practice, my family is not an exception.

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

And apparently you believe that every Christian in the world follows every command in the Bible without fault?

Just because religion was the reason your father tore your family apart does not mean religion tore your family apart, it means your father tore you family apart.

I could go out right now and break a window in the name of Christianity. Would Christianity have broken that window. NO. I would have. (Hypothetically speaking).

The religion approved of my father's actions. They approve of not having any relationships with unbelievers. This is a common practice, my family is not an exception.

My religion is apparently and exception.

Waitaminute. Your christianity is different than JehWit's father's christianity? What are the odds?

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"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

DNC I disagree with you. Religion did tear my family apart. Because memebers of my family did not want to follow such a strict logicless religion I was forbidden to talk to them. I didn't hear from sisters for years. to this day my father wont talk to me because his son "worships satan". This is a practice in the church, your not allowed to speak with unbelievers.

And apparently you believe that every Christian in the world follows every command in the Bible without fault?

Just because religion was the reason your father tore your family apart does not mean religion tore your family apart, it means your father tore you family apart.

I could go out right now and break a window in the name of Christianity. Would Christianity have broken that window. NO. I would have. (Hypothetically speaking).

The religion approved of my father's actions. They approve of not having any relationships with unbelievers. This is a common practice, my family is not an exception.

My religion is apparently and exception.

Waitaminute. Your christianity is different than JehWit's father's christianity? What are the odds?

I don't shun or encourage other believers to shun someone based on their beliefs.

^^^^^^isnt' it amazing on what you can do if you make up the context and make baseless assumptions!

Yep you got that right. I have had this conversation before and they are still convinced he's coming back. If you read in depth its clearly apparent that the Apostles or who ever expected a return in their life time.

The ones who are actually Christians are forgiven by Jesus for their atrocities. The atheists who deny Jesus' existence aren't. Apparently most atheists deny Christianity so fervently that they never stopped to think what would happen if they are wrong.

Well the Bible tells us that at Judgment Day Jesus is going to divide us up into sheep and goats, according to our deeds. The sheep go to Heaven and the goats go to Hell. If I'm wrong and the Bible is right then I'm not worried at all since I've done good deeds all my life (e.g. helping those in need). Those Christians atrocity doers are screwed.

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If I'm wrong, then I am wasting my time debating with you. If atheists are wrong, they will face the judgement of a perfect, omnipotent, and omniscient God with nobody to defend them.

We could both be wrong and face reincarnation. I've got good karma so I'm not worried. Can you say the same for yourself, or were you hoping that Jesus would wash away all your atrocities?

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The choice is yours, but the stakes are high. You had better be absolutely sure you are right!

Another possibility (out of many) is that God will punish those who relied on faith and reward those who relied on God-given reason.