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Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

instead of NOOB on your screen a really big "Hows that no stance treating ya?" would pop up.

A few of us think that would be great fun and have some actual practical usage.

I think that's a great idea, and definitely do-able. My minstrel would like the champs in my group have "Thats what ya get for staying in Fervour stance!!! lololol"

Since it's a corollary to other plugins currently in existence, I will defer to those authors to create it.

Originally Posted by Grothaal2

Sorry if thats already posted, but is already available the API specification for LUA use?

I am not in the betta, but would like to study it to play with it once released.

Sorry, the API is not currently available outside of beta. IIRC, the Lua plugins might not even be released with F2P+V3B2. It could, theoretically, be a long while before they post the API for all players to see.
.

Westhalian-Firefoot, Vyspark-Crickhollow, I'm not quite 1337 but I'm close...1336
[URL="http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info385-PredictInGameTime.html"]Predict In-Game Time[/URL] plugin
"Community is all of us together. As the current community, we have a huge opportunity to <transform teh nuubs into our awesomeness>" - Clover (paraphrased)

"Hey that's great DPS, I think the boss is hungry for some Lazer Chicken now"

for a moonkin druid, etc.

You could go in and edit the whispers too, great fun!

[CENTER][img]http://www.djelle.dk/sig-lotro.jpg?&f=gp&id=7697947&lo=0e0c0e111pp10&t1=Gedachtnis&u=ironyandspite.guildportal.com&k=Irony%20and%20Spite&i=www.axiomfiles.com/Files/375005/Copy%2520of%2520Irony-and-Spite_LOGO1.jpg[/img]
It's all to clear we are on our own.[/CENTER]

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

I used to have an addon in WoW that when I was tanking and someone pulled aggro it would send them a class specific whisper;
.
.
.
You could go in and edit the whispers too, great fun!

This is not possible with the current APIs:

We do not have access to information about a player's target, or target's target, or when those change. (That information may be available as part of the initial release of Lua scripting, but has not yet been implemented.)

We do not have any information about threat. In the event that a creature switches targets for scripted reasons, the plugin could quickly become annoying. (Information regarding threat is not expected to be made available for the first release of Lua scripting.)

Plugins cannot send chat messages. (While they can output text to a player's default chat window, the ability to send messages is not expected to be added for the initial release of Lua scripting.)

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Fredelas

This is not possible with the current APIs:

We do not have access to information about a player's target, or target's target, or when those change. (That information may be available as part of the initial release of Lua scripting, but has not yet been implemented.)

We do not have any information about threat. In the event that a creature switches targets for scripted reasons, the plugin could quickly become annoying. (Information regarding threat is not expected to be made available for the first release of Lua scripting.)

Plugins cannot send chat messages. (While they can output text to a player's default chat window, the ability to send messages is not expected to be added for the initial release of Lua scripting.)

Yes I know. Hence I didn't ask for it. Was just mentioning a fun little addon I had at one time in a similar vein as the couple of previous posts.

I am curious though, since I haven't tried NoobDetector. How do you put a message up w/o being able to write to chat?

Last edited by Gedachtnis; Aug 14 2010 at 08:48 AM.

[CENTER][img]http://www.djelle.dk/sig-lotro.jpg?&f=gp&id=7697947&lo=0e0c0e111pp10&t1=Gedachtnis&u=ironyandspite.guildportal.com&k=Irony%20and%20Spite&i=www.axiomfiles.com/Files/375005/Copy%2520of%2520Irony-and-Spite_LOGO1.jpg[/img]
It's all to clear we are on our own.[/CENTER]

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Gedachtnis

I am curious though, since I haven't tried NoobDetector. How do you put a message up w/o being able to write to chat?

Plugins can output text to the default chat window using a built-in API method (Turbine.Shell.WriteLine). All this does is print text in the player's window. It does not actually send or receive chat messages.

The NoobDetector plugin doesn't do anything except print a reminder in your own window when you do something noobish.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

There is a 'new' plugin made by someone that wrote it specifically for Hunters. It scans the Hunters active buffs (Strength stance, find the path, ect) and if they aren't active they get a reminder notification.

I've sent a PM to the author to see if he had time to make a champ one. I'll cross my fingers

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Grampsaz

There is a 'new' plugin made by someone that wrote it specifically for Hunters. It scans the Hunters active buffs (Strength stance, find the path, ect) and if they aren't active they get a reminder notification.

I've sent a PM to the author to see if he had time to make a champ one. I'll cross my fingers

How would you want that to work? I'm just curious what you're looking for in functionality and why. I'm leveling a champ (at 35) and find it fun.

Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

How would you want that to work? I'm just curious what you're looking for in functionality and why. I'm leveling a champ (at 35) and find it fun.

Pretty basic really. Does a check to see if you've got ANY stance active, if you dont, then you get a notification pop up on screen.

In terms of why? Well, two parts. One its funny, just a running joke in kin, when you see a Champ with zero power we're always like <Name> How's that no stance treating ya? Always good for a few laughs.
Two, obviously Champs need a stance on, so even though there is a new notification when Controlled Burn wears off (F2P) Its a subtle horn animation, specifically when CB runs off, I'd like to know when its time to toggle on a stance again.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Grampsaz

Pretty basic really. Does a check to see if you've got ANY stance active, if you dont, then you get a notification pop up on screen.

In terms of why? Well, two parts. One its funny, just a running joke in kin, when you see a Champ with zero power we're always like <Name> How's that no stance treating ya? Always good for a few laughs.
Two, obviously Champs need a stance on, so even though there is a new notification when Controlled Burn wears off (F2P) Its a subtle horn animation, specifically when CB runs off, I'd like to know when its time to toggle on a stance again.

I see, thanks.

Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

I read today that the same author recently released one that tracks stances, food buffs, etc. I am excited to download it tonight and play around with it. Looks pretty cool and helpful
.

Westhalian-Firefoot, Vyspark-Crickhollow, I'm not quite 1337 but I'm close...1336
[URL="http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/info385-PredictInGameTime.html"]Predict In-Game Time[/URL] plugin
"Community is all of us together. As the current community, we have a huge opportunity to <transform teh nuubs into our awesomeness>" - Clover (paraphrased)

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Can we have some kind of official word as to whether this will be in for F2P (even in it's current form). I have a number of mates hanging out for an answer ... oh, and me too.

While Turbine has been replying to other threads in the Beta Lua Scripting forum, they have specifically avoided answering this question so far. It probably won't be announced until the final beta build has been tested in the next 2 weeks.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Please be careful what you allow. Addons like dps meters, threat meters, boss mods, raid mods, etc. have the potential to cause a lot of problems.

I, like most other people, used a lot of addons when playing WoW. People couldn't even raid on patch days if all the addons weren't updated. I had so many addons, I had an addon to scan to see when they were updated and then download them (Ace Updater).

Once these type addons become available, any raid member who uses them will have their overall raid performance enhanced. As people see the benefits, more and more people will use the addons, and raids will start requiring it. When that happens, the Devs will tune encounters based on the assumption that raids will use the addons. People/raids, who don't use the addons, will be at a huge disadvantage.

That is why I adding WoW type addons/mods would be a problem in LOTRO. It becomes a slippery slope. When an addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. I do not think that is a good thing. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Bradd

Please be careful what you allow. Addons like dps meters, threat meters, boss mods, raid mods, etc. have the potential to cause a lot of problems.

I, like most other people, used a lot of addons when playing WoW. People couldn't even raid on patch days if all the addons weren't updated. I had so many addons, I had an addon to scan to see when they were updated and then download them (Ace Updater).

Once these type addons become available, any raid member who uses them will have their overall raid performance enhanced. As people see the benefits, more and more people will use the addons, and raids will start requiring it. When that happens, the Devs will tune encounters based on the assumption that raids will use the addons. People/raids, who don't use the addons, will be at a huge disadvantage.

That is why I adding WoW type addons/mods would be a problem in LOTRO. It becomes a slippery slope. When an addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. I do not think that is a good thing. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.

As someone who has authored and collaborated on some WoW addons, I have some sympathy for your situation.

However, many of the absolute best and most innovative ideas for UI changes have come from third party authors and their addons. Blizzard (the developer) has not been shy about begging, borrowing, or (according to rumor) buying some of these ideas to incorporate into their own stock UI.

In fact, for the entire duration of the Cataclysm alpha and beta, addons have all been disabled (since the UI is undergoing constant and radical changes). When it launches, players should find themselves "needing" fewer of their favorite old addons, because the UI has become so much more intuitive and incorporated many of those ideas.

Without this type of innovation, it's possible WoW could still be stuck with its clunky and deficient UI from 6.5 years ago. I think the same can be said of LOTRO.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Fredelas

As someone who has authored and collaborated on some WoW addons, I have some sympathy for your situation.

However, many of the absolute best and most innovative ideas for UI changes have come from third party authors and their addons. Blizzard (the developer) has not been shy about begging, borrowing, or (according to rumor) buying some of these ideas to incorporate into their own stock UI.

In fact, for the entire duration of the Cataclysm alpha and beta, addons have all been disabled (since the UI is undergoing constant and radical changes). When it launches, players should find themselves "needing" fewer of their favorite old addons, because the UI has become so much more intuitive and incorporated many of those ideas.

Without this type of innovation, it's possible WoW could still be stuck with its clunky and deficient UI from 6.5 years ago. I think the same can be said of LOTRO.

UI changes I support. Addons like grid that help clean up and/or organize the UI are not the problem.

Addons like DPS meters, Threat meters, Boss mods, etc. do more harm than good. Thay make raiding easier, forcing the Devs to make the content harder, which in turn forces players to use the mods or fall behind.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Bradd

UI changes I support. Addons like grid that help clean up and/or organize the UI are not the problem.

Addons like DPS meters, Threat meters, Boss mods, etc. do more harm than good. Thay make raiding easier, forcing the Devs to make the content harder, which in turn forces players to use the mods or fall behind.

If trends continue the same way they have been during the F2P beta testing, you may very well see Turbine employees creating plugins in their spare time.

That is to say, if Turbine provides APIs for accessing combat events, you can bet that they will also provide some of the first examples of DPS meters, threat meters, and boss event parsing plugins. (All of these things can be calculated, estimated, or implied from combat events.)

Also, I think LOTRO would receive a huge boost from anything that makes raiding (or group content in general) more accessible. The alternative to this is dumbing encounters down and removing challenging elements for everyone.

PLEASE NOTE THAT NO FRAMEWORK IS IN PLACE (YET) TO IMPLEMENT ANY OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF PLUGINS:

DPS/HPS/Skill Usage meters: Many players appreciate straightforward, intuitive ways to evaluate their own individual performance in a given scenario. Some group leaders may appreciate similar functionality. Due to combat logging being near instantaneous, there are already tools to do some of this analysis outside the game.

The availability of this kind of analysis in game cannot lead to content becoming easier or being made harder. The only deflation or inflation that could result is that of certain players' egos. It might lead to an emphasis on personal accomplishment rather than group accomplishment. This is a social problem that already exists, not a game systems problem.

Threat meters: Threat/hate/aggro is a cloudy topic, currently ruled by intuition, speculation, and trepidation. However, even in the absence of APIs to determine exact threat levels, it's likely that with enough testing, they could be estimated from combat events. This type of plugin would take some of the mystery and risk out of group encounters.

Unless you consistently group with the same players with the same classes, same builds, same equipment, and same playstyle, knowing your limits as DPS or healer, or maintaining situational control as a tank can be extremely stressful. For players who level to 65 with limited exposure to groups (an easier task now than ever before), this can be a serious impediment to experiencing the "end-game" content. These are the types of players (and group leaders) who would benefit the most from threat meters. Other players who enjoy the added risk can continue without them.

Boss mods/Scripted encounter guides: Turbine will not intentionally create an encounter that cannot be completed using the stock UI. (I say intentionally because they seem to have designed quite a few buggy encounters in the past that could not be completed at all.) If you consistently group with players who are willing to learn encounters for weeks on end before meeting any measure of success, then you and your friends will not enjoy or benefit from these types of plugins.

-----------

To sum up, most of the fears, apprehensions, and doomsday foretelling about these types of plugins are a really a result of the inherent social inadequacies they expose in a lot of us. We all share these same shortcomings. For some players, these types of plugins will be the social lubricant that facilitates their experience of content that would otherwise be unavailable to them. For others like yourself and the people you group with, you'll simply gain an additional challenge and mark of pride for choosing not to use these plugins.

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Fredelas

To sum up, most of the fears, apprehensions, and doomsday foretelling about these types of plugins are a really a result of the inherent social inadequacies they expose in a lot of us. We all share these same shortcomings. For some players, these types of plugins will be the social lubricant that facilitates their experience of content that would otherwise be unavailable to them. For others like yourself and the people you group with, you'll simply gain an additional challenge and mark of pride for choosing not to use these plugins.

The apprehension many of us have is based in our experience using similiar addons in other games. We have seen first hand what they will do. People will play to the meters instead of playing smart, raids will force people to use certain addons, and the Devs will make encounters harder and harder based on the assunption that people are using the addons. It will pit player against player, and overall diminish the play experience for many of us.

If Turbine goes down that slippery slope, I am not one of the people who will refuse to use the addons. I do not enjoy beating my head against the wall. I do not want to face encounters I have no chance of completing because I don't have the addons the Devs assume I have.

So, if Turbine makes the mistake of allowing those type addons:
I will download them ...
wait to play after patches until the mods are updated...
let the mod tell me what to do and when to do it so I don't have to think ...
and play to the meters (refusing to use any skill that is not measured)...

Re: Lua UI Plugins in LOTRO

Originally Posted by Bradd

The apprehension many of us have are based in our experience using similiar addons in other games. We have seen first hand what they will do. People will play to the meters instead of playing smart, raids will force people to use certain addons, and the Devs will make encounters harder and harder based on the assunption that people are using the addons.

Truth

Maybe Blizzard has changed in the year or so since I left WoW, but when I was there the encounters were getting more and more difficult as the mods became more sophisticated and refined. It had simply become nearly impossible to complete raid content without mods.

If raiding mods were available in LOTRO...

(big) IF Turbine kept encounter difficulty at a level that didn't require those mods...

(big) IF raiders didn't complain the content was easy because the mods made it easy thus forcing Turbine to increase encounter difficulty...

Then I'd be fine with them. However, those are a lot of If's.

I frankly don't trust Turbine to keep encounter difficulty at a level where us normal humans can complete it. All I have to do is look at current content (and how that content is tested/tweaked) to see that isn't going to happen. It'll just get worse with the availability of raid-focused mods.