Friday, April 08, 2005

Noreen Gosch: "If this is it, we're in the final days"

"A fellow in New York City went to his door and asked him about his mother in Iowa and he slammed the door on him," he says. "He wouldn't talk about it at all."

Those of you who entered the looking glass on the Gannon/Gosch story may have seen the bizarre, facile, uninformed and predictable piece in the Des Moines Register a few days ago: "Is he Johnny Gosch?" Bizarre because it strikes a debunking tone of bloggers say the kwayziest things, without actually debunking anything; facile because it's not only cribbed from websites, but omits the substance of their arguments; uninformed because it describes Operation MOCKINGBIRD as merely the "theory" of Net paranoiacs; and predictable because the Register has a lot of its own ass to cover regarding its treatment of the story over the years.

So thank you, Tim Schmitt and Pointblank Des Moines, for sparing us the attitude, and doing some actual journalism with this cover story, "Death of a Conspiracy: Johnny Gosch, Jeff Gannon, Hunter Thompson and the unraveling of a troubling tale." (Note: I suggest you grab this while you can, it doesn't appear to be a permanent link. It's attributed to the "cover," and the cover story will likely change with the next issue.)

This is a terrific job of laying out a complicated and credulity-bending case in context. (Paul Bishop, Rusty Nelson, and even Craig Spence get name-checked.) I don't know how tempted Schmitt was to poke the ribs of his readers, and prejudice their judgement with grandstanding eye rolls. It certainly was too much to resist for the Register's Erin Crawford. But Schmitt clearly sees the difficult wisdom in Noreen Gosch's advice, and indeed repeats it twice: "Just because you don't want to believe something is true, that doesn't mean it's not true."

From the start, it's evident Schmitt is heading for deeper waters:

Anyone who has heard the theories surrounding Johnny Gosch's disappearance on Sept. 5, 1982 (and who in Iowa has not?), knows they are difficult to accept. If there are Satanic pedophiles working in the top levels of government and law enforcement selling kids on the black market and forcing them into prostitution, pornography, extortion and things far worse, it's easier as a human being to simply believe that such things could not be true.

But they could be.

"But they could be" may not look like much, but when considering the treatment of such material in the mainstream - even the alternative mainstream - this is, in fact, a radical concession. And it may be all the concession required to create a crack in the consensus reality.

You know what Leonard Cohen says about cracks? "That's how the light gets in."

The alternative weekly paper that published the Gannon/Gosch piece closed its doors the day the story came out and will not print another issue. The paper will apparently be printing under the name of another alt-type weekly paper in town (cityview) but the writer of the Pointblank piece - the managing editor - was fired. Apparently, the company that owns the new paper is owned by Michael Gartner, a high-powered individual in Des Moines who owns the Minor league baseball team in that town, oversees a state board that disburses funds to big business, and was a former writer for the Des Moines Register and Tribune who once won a Pulitzer. He was also once president of NBC news, but was forced to leave after the debacle when they blew up trucks with rockets to make them look like they exploded on impact.Are you thinking yet that some people are very afraid of this story?

1080 Comments:

HST was just about 30 years or so ahead of the curve - "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

The ever-increasing amount of sheer weirdness that's visible to even the most not-paying-attention Americans these days IS starting to bubble over; more and more people are (too slowly, but that's what it is) able to come to terms with the seriously bizarre stuff that's going on.

And while the MSM is becoming less and less responsible in reporting the (weird and not) actual realities of American life today - people are continuing to become more and more skeptical of what the MSM says. To the point that a heckuva lot of people don't bother watching the "news" - they figure out what's going on, but it ain't Brian Williams telling them.

There's a vacuum growing, and truth can thrive there. For a lot of people, the DSM Register saying something isn't true is a big clue that it might be so.

So the paper closed its doors and the guy who wrote the story, the managing editor, was fired, at the behest of the former president of the NBC. All because of a silly conspiracy theory concocted by those silly bloggers. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

This story has apparently become too hot for Democratic Underground as well. No use in trying to post anything about it there, it will be deleted.

Corporations have multimillion-dollar budgets to dissect and attack news reports they dislike. But with each passing year they have yet another power: They are not only hostile to independent journalists. They are their employers.— Ben H. Bagdikian, The Media Monopoly, Sixth Edition, (Beacon Press, 2000), p. 65

It is useful to remind ourselves that free expression is threatened not just blatantly by authoritarian governments and all those in the private sector who fear public exposure, but also more subtly by the handful of global media conglomerates that have reduced meaningful diversity of expression in much of the globe.

— Gerald Caplan, Advancing Free Media, Open Markets, Open Media

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/002626.php

Media executives speak in the language of war - of bombarding audiences, targeting markets, capturing grosses, killing the competition, and winning, by which they mean making more money than the other guy. Some news organisations even refer to their employees as “the troops”. It is hard for media workers, including journalists, to operate outside the ethos of hyper-competitition and ratings mania. As willing or unwilling conscripts in the media war, journalists imbibe its values and become warriors themselves.

— Danny Schechter, Chapter 2, Peace Journalism and Media War: the Fight to Reform Journalism, What Are Journalists For?, presented on the Conflict and Peace Forums, September 1998.

Disney

We have no obligation to make history. We have no obligation to make art. We have no obligation to make a statement. To make money is our only objective.

— Michael Eisner, CEO, The Walt Disney Co., (Internal Memo).

Quoted from Mickey Mouse Monopoly-Disney, Childhood & Corporate Power (see also p.29 of the transcript which is provided as a link from this previous link.)

Now at midnight all the agentsAnd the superhuman crewCome out and round up everyoneThat knows more than they doThen they bring them to the factoryWhere the heart-attack machineIs strapped across their shouldersAnd then the keroseneIs brought down from the castlesBy insurance men who goCheck to see that nobody is escapingTo Desolation Row.

I read the des moines peice a few days ago. I came to the same conclusion. What a joke. She basically just hung out on the DU for a week or two and read all the "gannon wrinkles" threads. (all 300 of them)

that article makes me think of the entry you wrote regarding popular mechanics pitiful "debunking" of the 9-11 conspiracy theories, and the counter article written in response.

Also, what's with the age issue? I like how people are actually using Guckert's age, as given by him, as some kind of method of disproving the gosch theories.

I'm sorry, but you're going to take a known FRAUD's word on his age?

(Not to mention, all of that crap regarding his age was debated ENDLESSLY on the DU for about 2 months before it showed up in that article.)

I guess you can't be surpirsed though. after all, Gannon's "reporting" was "convincing enough" to be voted into the congressional record.

Gartner is a former Des Moines Register editor and Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial writer. He and Gerlach owned the Ames Tribune and other small central Iowa newspapers until selling them in 1999, when they bought the Iowa Cubs. Gartner is now majority owner of the I-Cubs.

The two men still own several small papers across the nation.

Wimer said the sale "will ensure that Des Moines continues to have a strong, independent, locally owned alternative newspaper."

ABSTRACT - Reps John Conyers Jr and Louise M Slaughter are pressing for investigation into how reporter James D Guckert, who used name Jeff Gannon, gained access to classified documents that named Valerie Plame as CIA operative; Guckert, who retired recently from TalonNews.com, Web site operated by Texas Republican Robert Eberle, was granted press credentials by White House but denied credentials to cover Capitol Hill because of 'dubious qualifications'; Slaughter spokesman Karl Frisch suggests Guckert has connection to White House; photo (M)

However, let's make sure that we have the facts on the closing/firing.Seems like Cityview was bought out and Schmitt was fired, only to be hired by Pointblank, back in 2002. Let's make sure this isn't what we're talking about:

Maybe i'm dim but what is up with the title of the piece - it's a cover story with art and all - "Death of a Conspiracy" I was expecting it to lay the timeline out then include rock solid evidence that he is not Gosch, but that does not happen in the well written piece.

I think he knew the paper was closing so he took it as a window of opprotunity and wrote a very interesting artical. Maybe it was something more sinister.

about Guckert on NPC/C-Span...just as we thought - no real questions and they did not burn his a** like some less doomy types have claimed they would.

On the "is Gannon Gosch" question, what I've seen so far is a huge amount of speculation generated from a minimum of evidence.

No, make that suggestions of evidence...a few photos, the ones generally available on the Internet being typically low-resolution, purporting to support a resemblance between Johnny Gosch and Jeff Gannon- actually, a facsimile digitally "age-progressed" image of Johnny Gosch and Jeff Gannon; the pronouncements of the bereaved mother of kidnap victim Gosch- pointedly, she stops short of declaring a positive identification, more sensibly calling for DNA testing; a "jailhouse allegation" by a convicted pedophile undoubtedly seeking to do an information trade in return for leniency on his case; and a videotaped but evidently unsworn statement by an as yet-unidentified fellow alleged victim of high-level protected pedophilia traffickers, declaring that Gannon is Johnny Gosch.

That isn't enough to make a case.

Ted Gunderson sounds like a blunderer, if not an outright disinformationist. He's "99 per cent sure" that Gosch is Gannon, and "he's known it for months"?

Rather than divulging his suspicions all over the Internet, perhaps Mr. Gunderson ( a former FBI agent and a registered private detective) could have resorted to the more low-key approach of discreetly obtaining a DNA sample from the suspect in question.

Get your minds out of the gutter, all anyone would have to do is nick a sweaty T-shirt from Gannon to obtain a preliminary finding...or find an envelope that Gannon had licked, or a coffee cup that he drank from...

Instead, we have Ted Gunderson, and now Bo Dietl, gallumphing through the Media Circus. They're apparently competing with Sherman Skolnick, another "investigator of reknown", for an award for how to construct the most elaborate speculative narrative from the smallest array of facts (and "factoids".)

Or perhaps they're collabrating, who knows...it's important to always ask the next question, isn't it?

I want a serious investigation of these serious subjects, not a lot of grandstanding and insinuations.

I'm far from convinced that Ted Gunderson is the person to do that http://www.newsmakingnews.com/gunderson.htm .

I'm not reassured about John DeKamp, either, if for no other reason than the fact that he apparently has invested his full confidence in Ted Gunderson.

Make no mistake, I want a full airing of anything to do with these horrific allegations of pedophilia and high-level government corruption. Are these really the guys to do it? John DeKamp, former CIA covert ops, Phoenix Program, Vietnam...Bo Dietl, New York detective and bosom buddy of George W. Bush's recently withdrawn nominee for Director of "Homeland Security", Bernie Kerik...Ted Gunderson, former Senior Special Agent in Charge of the Los Angeles office of the FBI 1977-79, overlapping the tenure of of LAPD Chiefs Ed Davis and Darryl Gates.

I've always wondered how it is that Gunderson has spent years describing his investigations of shadowy conspiratorial high-level pedophile networks, with so little to show for it in terms of results.

And what's with the "one-man crusade" aspect of Gunderson's career- which includes his repeated campaigns as the Presidential nominee of the American Independent Party? ( I don't think that Gunderson's John Birchesque political opinions disqualify him from being a good investigator. I just haven't found him to offer much so far, beyond a snipe hunt.)

You would think that Gunderson could have sought out allies in investigating high-level corruption- former LAPD Organized Crime Division officer Mike Rothmiller, for instance. Rothmiller wrote a book in 1992 entitled Inside the LA Secret Police, where he claimed, among other things, that actual function of the the LAPD OCD was surveillance of the private lives of Los Angeles public figures, media stars, and celebrities, including a great many who had no ties whatsoever to organized crime syndicates. Rothmiller also claimed that his function as a police officer was apparently largely secretarial- he collected information, yet somehow the OCD rarely if ever made a case. http://www.namebase.org/sources/YN.html

Interesting book, I've read it.

You would think that Ted Gunderson would have tried to contact Rothmiller, as a comrade-in-arms. On the other hand, maybe Rothmiller doesn't trust him.

( Of course, Rothmiller doesn't appear to trust much of anyone, having apparently survived a very close call of an assassination attempt already, in retaliation for his whistleblowing. He's apparently gone underground, in fear for his life. )

To sum up- rather than indulging in further unsupported speculations about whether Johnny Gosch is Jeff Gannon, or unsworn allegations/insinuations that Hunter S. Thompson moonlighted as a snuff film photographer- perhaps- just maybe- a more productive place to begin researching high-level pedophile connections would be to scrutinize the circumstances surrounding the case of Lloyd Jeffrey Wiatt:

LA County Judge Kills Self After Molestation AllegationVALENCIA, CALIF. — A Los Angeles County Superior Court judge shot and killed himself after becoming distraught when detectives contacted him about an allegation that he had molested a child, authorities said. Lloyd Jeffrey Wiatt, a former prosecutor, was the subject of a preliminary child sex abuse investigation before killing himself Thursday, according to sheriff's Lt. Dan Rosenberg. No additional details about the case were released.

Authorities contacted Wiatt, 61, at his home Wednesday. Worried that he was suicidal, detectives monitored his movements using a commercial anti-theft device on his car.

They followed him to Towsley Canyon Park on Thursday and urged him over cell phone not to harm himself. He pulled out a gun and shot himself before they could reach him, Rosenberg said... http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/021205_nwAP_judge_suicide.html

Is anyone else out there curious about the possibility of Judge Wiatt having perhaps become entangled in "conflicts of interests" in the course of his official career as a prosecutor and judge, prior to his demise?

Where's Ted Gunderson on THAT case? How about the LAPD? For that matter, where's the media attention?

[ Coincidental postscript: in doing the search for the Wiatt suicide, I found that he was the second LA Superior Court Judge to commit suicide by a self-inflicted gunshot in less than three months... http://www.metnews.com/articles/2004/buck121404.htm ]

I really don't take a lot of relish in dumping so much data on an already overloaded desk, Jeff, but as long as we're both looking into this ghastly business-

Yet another set of allegations related to high-level pedophile allegations has recently emerged, here in California.

This particular case has the added weight of being an actual, ongoing court case. It involves a dispute between a former Sacramento County District Attorney, Richard William Hamlin, and his wife. She is alleging spousal abuse and battery; his defense is that the charge is a frame-up, connected with his allegation that his wife is a victim of a mind control cult, and that her injuries were actually the result of a recent assault by members of the cult.

It gets more complicated...much, much more complicated. Here are some of the reported details:

The Sacramento Bee has been covering the case- registration (free) is required http://www.sacbee.com/user_registration/login/?goto=http%3A//www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/12345228p-13213025c.html

Also, Virginia McCullough's New Making News:

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/vm,hamlin,trial,2,9,05.htm

All I can say is that if Richard Hamlin is lying, he's gone to an awful lot of trouble to concoct a fabrication so elaborate, simply to convince a jury of his innocence in a spouse abuse case.

(Parenthetically, in my opinion, the letter reprinted within the context of the NewMakingNews article linked above- making/repeating the unsubstantiated claim that Gary Webb was murdered- lacks credibility, for this reason: along with an array of meticulous preparations in advance of his suicide, Webb wrote a detailed three and one half page letter to his family and mailed it on the eve of taking his life. Thus, to give credence to the notion that Gary Webb was murdered, one has to believe one of two things: 1) that some super-spook psyops agency has the ability to forge a letter to one's most intimate companions, containing personal details and emotional content, mimicking the personal style of a skilled writer with such versimilitude that it's accepted as authentic without reservation by the recipients, the wife and children; or 2) that the widow is actually in on the plot. Personally, I reject both of those scenarios. It's going to take overwhelming incontrovertible evidence to the contrary to convince me that Webb was murdered. And thus far, people like the author of that letter have yet to produce a shred of evidence to support their contentions.)

Back to you, Jeff...stay strong, keep your head up.

Incidentally, since I've been doing so much linking to

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/

I should note that I don't know Virginia McCullough of New Making News personally, although I do live in the same general region of the country. My knowledge of her comes exclusively from encountering her site, and reading the stories she's authored. In my estimation, she's a competent, credible reporter, and comes across in print to be as thorough an investigator as anyone can accomplish without having the resources of the police and the courts supporting her. Journalists, reporters, and historians don't have the power to depose witnesses under oath, search houses, or make criminal indictments. Given those limitations, all an authentic journalist of integrity can do is their very best, and to judge from reading, Virginia McCullough is the real thing. She's been doing the most credible investigative journalism into organized pedophilia cases longer than anyone else of whom I'm aware. Perhaps you should consider contacting or interviewing her on the subject.

I second your skepticism of "leading conspiracy investigators" such as Gunderson, Skolnick, Ruppert, EVEN DECAMP.

I have been studying this conspiracy stuff for 14 years and it is nothing if not a house of mirrors. There are very few people in whom one can place full trust.

I have wondered the same about Gunderson: high-powered guy, veteran FBI, years and years investigating--and what has he accomplished? He tried to insert himself as an "expert" in the OKC bombing--his information was pretty well debunked.

Skolnick I have personally met, yet still don't know how much of his stuff to believe.

Even DeCamp? Well, think about the fact that the conspirators always create their own fake opposition *before* the real opposition can even get started up. Retain a healthy skepticism.

About LA celebrities. I think it was last week that I wrote this in my journal:

Seeing the world though the mind-control/conspiracy lens can shed possible new light on lots of things. For instance, the failed"'plot" to kidnap [David] Letterman's kid. Now I don't know about this person but it has occurred to me that Hollywood celebs are potential loose cannons: rich, powerful, some of them creatively and financially independent. THey must be tightly monitored and controlled. How do you do this? You built a culture of relentless 24/7 celebrity surveillance. Never let them be alone. Surround them at all times with security (perhaps spying on them), crazed "stalkers" (some perhaps mind-controlled), and constant surveillance by "paparazzi" who work for the tabloid press--which, we should remember, was practically founded by a CIA agent by the name of Generoso Pope, and which uses spook-world tactics such as doling out large sums of cash in return for "scoops."

And anybody remember the strange case of former IL Congressman Mel Reynolds (a Rhodes Scholar) who was put away for having sex with teenage girls? Part of his defense was that his young female accuser was a "Satanist."--Freddy

I am directing this post to myself for consideration as well as to any of you who believe in the power of positive thought / prayer.

I woke up this morning early and was thinking about this site and how many powerful people read the material. You guys (meaning woman too) are spread all over the world and are the ones who "get it" about the seriousness of the dark energies at work destroying our world.

This site is a powerful tool in itself but I just wondered if us readers could do more and take our power further together.

I am not part of the "God Squad" but I do believe in God and the powers of everything good kind of like all of the good guys getting together in Lord of the Rings or Star Wars to fight the Dark Forces.

Here is my rambling point:

Bush plus mean thoughts like I have been doing does not help anything. My thoughts have kind of been like, Please God, let Bush die and kill his entire cabinet etc etc. This type of prayer is stupid and powerless.

So, I wondered this morning if all of us directed positive thought or prayer which ever words you choose at Bush and all the others, maybe that collective energy will bring about positive changes that we all want.

For example: I picture Bush in my mind, (both of them) and then surround them with divine light and pray for light to enter their darkness. That is a powerful prayer for healing and us. Prayer and Good Energy headed their way is not a good thing for them. Light headed their way will most likely destroy all of them.

I am going to start doing this but I feel that I am only a drop of water in this and maybe all of us doing this will act like a Tsunami and wash away all of the darkness with all of our good vibrations and light headed to all of the dark places.

HEY! That MSNBC clip is awesome. Could it be that the MSM is finally going to "get it"? I would think this would be irresistible. It's got it all, sex, violence, corruption in high places. Truth truly is stranger than fiction.

the msnbc piece is very interesting, and brave for taking a non-mocking decision. Now we'll see how quick a death it dies, and what kind of phonecalls are being made. I don't know this msnbc show...who are they, and can they be shaken?

Wells will probably remember when I was working on Promis etc for the magazine we both did time at; everytime Lou Dobbs and a few others would do a piece on it, the principals thought they had the rascals on the run.

Of course nothing of the sort. It died.

Hate to see this happen. Keep us Canucks who don't get msnbc here up to date on developments.

Someone on DU has posted these photos from Guckert's 73 and 74 yearbooks:

http://members.cox.net/~cbeecher3/MVC-003S.jpg

http://members.cox.net/~cbeecher3/MVC-013S_edited.jpg

http://members.cox.net/~cbeecher3/mvc-009s.jpg

http://members.cox.net/~cbeecher3/MVC-018S.jpg

http://members.cox.net/~cbeecher3/MVC-021S_edited.jpg

http://members.cox.net/~cbeecher3/MVC-023S_edited.jpg

I suggest that you account for these before continuing further with the Gosch/Gannon angle.1) Is the person from those photos Gannon?2) If yes, could the yearbooks have been recently manufactured?If they were not manufactured, then Gannon is not Gosch.

Of course, that does not preclude Gannon from being a former kidnapped sex slave.He may be linked to the world of Gosch, even if he is not Gosch himself.

But still, beware of a set up.The crow would taste awful on this one.Please account for those photos.Thank you.

"is Gannon = Gosch?" is too simplistic a question to ask since we have not even answered "is Gannon = Guckert?".

dailyKOS has the best timeline for Guckert(s) at:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/28/82111/6781

Reading this timeline i get a very strong intuitionthat a Guckert was under cover during the 90's (and possibly the 80's also). A reasonable supposition based on his working for liqour distributors, is that he was local FBI out of Philadelphia covering something like trafficking of contraband (not necessarily drugs). It is also reasonable to speculate he was working at the 2000 RNC in Philadelphia where he met Nick Berg who was also doing security (installing equipment).

It is not obvious to me that the gay escort guy and Gannon are the same people. Thus i fnd myself juggling at least eight people in my head:1. kidnapped Gosch2. visitor to mom Gosch3. highschool Guckert4. undercover Guckert5. security Nick Berg6. Iraq heheaded Nick Berg8. reporter Gannon

I do not know how many real people there are/were, but all these guys are interconnected, that im sure of --- the murkiness is intentional.

I don't think the host of this webite, Jeff Wells, has put himself in a position to "get burned" on the Gannon enigma. To my reading, he's simply entertaining speculations, not coming to conclusions.

If the Gannon/Gosch "identification" turns out to be (yet another) false alarm, the person who comes off as the most incompetent/phony as a result is Ted "99 per cent sure" Gunderson, a former FBI agent, private detective, etc.

John DeCamp's credibility suffers as well, in that case. He's touted Gunderson as a competent and trustworthy investigator for years.

If/when it fizzles, I wonder what Gunderson's climb-down will be...will he bluff, stonewall, lay low? All of the above?

Because if Gunderson's wrong on this, he has NO EXCUSE.

And all the shadowy informants feeding DeCamp and Gunderson (if they aren't being fed BY them), with their unsworn statments...still no press conference appearances, I note.

Yeah, count me as a skeptic on the Gannon/Gosch allegations. I've run into acts like these before.

..."A reasonable supposition based on his working for liqour distributors, is that he was local FBI out of Philadelphia covering something like trafficking of contraband (not necessarily drugs). It is also reasonable to speculate he was working at the 2000 RNC in Philadelphia where he met Nick Berg who was also doing security (installing equipment)."...

No, it isn't.

There's nothing there but your fantasy, schoolboy.

You might get a kick out of having yourself on like that, but count me out.

If she saw her son in the late nineties she should be able to identify him. THe talk of grainy pics rings false. There are a gazillion clear pics and video of him. Plenty for her to tell if it is him by pic and voice.Also strange is his toying with her and everyone else. "Ask me", then "No, I can't talk about it".Something just is not right about any of it. I can see him doing it for attention maybe...but I cannot figure her out. She has to know one way or another. It is just strange.

Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 11:01 PM by Minstrel Boy She may not be as unsure as she publically states.

If he is Gosch, then a positive identification from his mother, or an admission from him, could endanger his life.

Both Noreen Gosch and Guckert seem be dancing around this, reluctant to be definitive, yet giving signals.

cat_girl25 (1000+ posts) Sat Apr-09-05 11:15 PMResponse to Reply #269

275. The thing is that when he came to visit her in the middle of the night

Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 11:16 PM by cat_girl25 in 95 (or whatever year it was), you need to remember she hasn't seen him since he was 12. That's a pretty big gap and we all change from being 12 and then the next time someone sees us, we're 25. And Mrs. Gosch was told by Johnny that he changes his looks a lot.

SO - my question is this:

Is it possible that the person who met with Mrs. Gosch in 1997 was NOT her son but someone else?

I have to say at this point that DNA is the only way to establish anything.

But how would one get that to happen?

One would have to have law enforcement authority to subpoena or get court ordered DNA tests.

Congressional investigators could presumably seek these if there was a Congressional investigation.

(I worked briefly on the Hill but have doubts as to whether such tests could be ordered by a Congressional investigative committee)

BUT - I think that such an investigation should be encouraged and sought.

Whether Guckert is Gosch (which seems like an easily ascertainable thing via DNA testing) - could be resolved by such a test.

We should be clamoring for it and Guckert should take the damn thing to put the issue to rest one way or the other.

If he IS Gosch - then his info and testimony could be very damaging to the BFEE.

Maybe not, I suppose.

But we should continue to push for it as loudly as possible and maybe the mainstream media will get their thumbs out of their asses.

Why is a DNA test necessary now that we have seen the yearbook photos? I'm hard-pressed to find ANY discrepancy whatsoever between the faces of Gannon and the yearbook Guckert.

To continue EVEN MERELY THEORIZING about Gannon=Gosch, one has to assume at least one or more of the following (please add to this if need be)...

The DUer who supposedly located the yearbook is an agent or...

The yearbook is a manufactured plant, edited to include retro-fit Gannon pics or...

There was no actual yearbook located, and the pics above are fabrications specifically created for the web or...

Gannon/Gosch has had plastic surgery (but not enough to disguise identifiable birthmarks/scars) expertly performed (by who?) to match the real Guckert, whose identity he has adopted (and then, where is the real Guckert and what is his role?) or...

Time travel weirdness wherein Gannon is BOTH the 70's teenage Guckert and the 80's 12-year-old Gosch or...

Or...I'm running out of ideas.

Anyway, like I said:Even is Gannon is not Gosch, Gannon could still be involved, hell he could have been the guy who visited Noreen Gosch in '97. Even if Gannon is not Gosch, there is no reason to temper the pursuit of a connection between the two.

But if you still want to resume speculating about Gannon=Gosch, keep in mind that you will be forced to assume one of the above propositions, and the bizarre quotient will have risen an order of magnitude.

I hope no one regards me as - I know, this sounds absurd given the subject - a party pooper or a chill pill. Please know that I am convinced of just about everything this blog has ever published. I treasure the rigor of Jeff's intuition.

It is really great to see you posting here. Nice of Jeff to give us a place to chat without the filters. I've missed you. Take care"

Thanks whoever you are. The anon posts are a little hard to get used to. At first I thought they were all the same person until I tried to post and saw the option.

This blog stuff is new to me.

As for the yearbook photo it seems like this could have easily been faked OR that, like in the case of Oswald,there are multiple "look-a-likes" who function in a variety of circumstances.

Between plastic surgery AND the extent of the depth and heinousness of these asserted crimes and conspiracies (and their asserted ties to intel ops for off the shelf deviants) it seems plausible that Guckert was set up to appear to be Gosch and really is not --- to try to discredit all the bloggers and to do what Karl Rove is the master of: Innoculation.

Take a true story and feed it to the media through agents like Jim Hatfield or Gannon/Guckert (whether willing agents or disposable dupes) and then discredit the message and the messenger. This happened to Hatfield and it happened to Dan Rather with the "fed" national guard letters whose content was accurate but the typeset and origin of the documents was questionable (but I have never trusted Dan since Zapruder and think he got a golden paracute for this performance of "shock, shock" at being "careless" instead of identifying that it was a Rove set up).

Hatfield paid imho the ultimate price for his efforts (as did possibly HT ) and is why I urge all of you investigative journalists, as Andy Stephenson has done - to publicly take the "no suicides" pledge.

I personally think that Gosch's mother's position is the ONLY position on this. Even if Gannon/Guckert were to SAY he was Gosch we would STILL want a dna test.

I think the blogosphere and this site in particular can be VERY valuable in asceretaining the truth by asking the right questions and demanding the right answers.

We have no investment in Guckert being Gosch. What we want is the truth about Guckert's past. Is he tied into the dirty sex rings with the repubs (was that lobbyist who died in Hollywood too, for example, who od'd last month)

These questions need to be asked and only, it seems, we will ask them.

"Case closed" due to scepticism or manipulation of the facts or theories is not an option.

Anyone, post the complete set of FACTS currently supporting the notion that the person presently calling himself Jeff Gannon is actually Johnny Gosch, the grown-up victim of a still-unsolved kidnapping.

Is the information thus far presented in support of that possibility any more concrete, germane, and verifiable than that of any other rumor that could be conjured regarding an assumed identity- the allegation that Gannon is actually, say, David Eisenhower's illegitimate son, or the love child of Telly Savalas and Arianna Huffington?

Who first made the Gannon-Gosch connection? a) someone who knew for a fact that Gannon=Gosch leaked the news b) genius blogger susses it out c) stupid blogger concocts a wild fantasy or d) spurious but "sexy" (in the sense of stimulating the imagination) connections are planted to derail the momentum of the Gannon-Guckert investigation.

Somewhere in this site last night I found a link to an interview with John Judge. After reading the details of Reagan's attempted assasination, I was surprised that the general public would not question the investigation.

With shows like CSI being so popular, even a child would know the crime scene and ballistics do not match the official story.

The NIBIN program is used all over the country now with great success. Just like with the D.C. Sniper case, law enforcement knew the "fingerprints" of the bullets coming from that particular gun.

The NIBIN system would easily blow the doors off of both Kennedy and MLK assasination official stories.

I watched many of the memorial shows for Reagan the week of his death and I wondered why Bush was not even mentioned or interviewed. Now I can see why he wasn't "invited."

I always thought many of the politicians were corrupt but I am surprised, shocked and disappointed with the realization that our Federal Law Enforcement Agencies have such widespread corruption. I thought the street agents were still "good guys." If they won't protect the president, they sure as heck are not going to protect me.

I'm guessing it took a lot of FBI agents to pick up all of Gary Caradori's photos that showered down when his plane was blown up. That's an image that continues to stay with me.

I take ethics training every year as do all of my coworkers. I am well versed in not using government computers to run personal queries and not sending personal emails. I know all about not accepting gifts in excess of $20.00. I think the federal government ethics training should be updated to include at a very minimum, not assasinating presidents and other citizens of the United States. Also maybe something about not assisting in the rape, murder or terrorizing of child United States citizens. I don't think they should hurt anyone regardless of their citizenship but it's a good start to at least focus on their fellow Americans.

I've been reading about all this stuff for awhile and I've been suspicious for some time that Ted Gunderson is spreading disinformation to discredit real, legitimate claims. I'm not real sure about DeCamp (or Bill Colby for that matter), and Skolnick strikes me as simply credulous. I guess I don't need to remind most readers here, but for those who need it: beware who you believe, ESPECIALLY when it's something you WANT to believe.

"Journalists, reporters, and historians don't have the power to depose witnesses under oath, search houses, or make criminal indictments. Given those limitations, all an authentic journalist of integrity can do is their very best…"

well said

"DNA, DNA, DNA.

It's all blather until then."

We would hasten to add,it's all blather,period.Whether Guckert = Gannon &/or Guckert = Gosch will not make one whit of difference. The queries, the time spent, the arguments, the deliberations, are little more than the ozone cloud from shorting-out neurons of frustrated wanna-be P.I.s, investigative journalists, or vicarious wankers, or all of the above.A tabloid mentality.

I was hoping to contribute my "dot" to the others. I didn't expect much when I contacted the Secret Service a few weeks back and asked their duty agent what would happen if a high ranking politician like Bush Sr. was sexually abusing children in the company of the Secret Service, would they intervine? The guy told me that no one is above the laws in the United States. He said they would refer it to the FBI to deal with as that is not their area.

So I then called the FBI duty agent and asked the same general question. I told her I thought I was abused by Bush Sr. in the Omaha sex ring over thirty years ago. She said I had no proof, so it was a non issue. She said the FBI would look into it if I had proof. I asked if anyone else had come forward that I could add my personal experiences to collaborate. She said no, no one else had come forward and I had no proof. I left my name and phone number with her for the log in case anyone else ever did come forward who had proof. So much for my dot.

"prrof" is a relative legal term. Proof is anything provable. You have proof: your own testimony. In a legal case there are different standards of proof. Beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal). Clear and convincing evidence (less proof than beyond a reasonable doubt but more than preponderance of the evidence. A preponderance of the evidence (more than 50% likely one way or the other- civil cases like car accidnets as in whose fault is it), prima facie evidence (first blush, really), and probable cause.

These are the fundamental ones.

Crimes or evidence is never required to BEGIN an invewstigation provided there is a compaint filed and namesd named. It may be that the po9lice or feds or prosecutors or whoever will exercise theri discretion to wither disbelieve the complaint or feel it is too tenuous. But leaving a name and number is NOT the same as filing a formal complaint which requires at least a pro forma investigation . They will try to dissuade you and discourage you if the case sounds too off the wall.

Anyway - getting an investigation of a corrupt conmtrolled government figure is unlikely. Such investigations should be done through recorded testimony. with lawyers potetnailly who are sympathetic or journalists.

They should be done by affidiavit.

I have hesitated to spur investigations of threats against me for a number of reasons. Mostly because it draws attention and I prefer, in this instance, anonymity.

But if you are sincere in this find a sympathetic lawyer or organization and do an affidavot under oath. Get it to a lawyer and to some journalists. Bring it to law enforcemtn formally via a complaint. In the blogosphere utlimaly there can be publicity for a story or allegation like this - but it never gets to the level of proof.

The feds were bullshitting you to put you off. They do not want to hear these things because they are too much for them to spend energy on if it is speculative. Getting them in gear requires a formal complaint and you need backup.

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