Also responding to people making excuses. I agree with him in every way. I hope National outlets keep ripping Indy citizens for not supporting Pacers. Deserve all the heat they are getting. Nothing else is working.

SMosley21

02-19-2013, 04:32 PM

I normally can't stand Cowherd but he's on point here.

Heisenberg

02-19-2013, 04:34 PM

Read some of the responses. They don't know anything about the team. It's not a fans are aware of them and don't go to games thing, it's Indiana citizens don't know a thing about these Pacers.

I really don't know how you fix that. Keep winning I suppose.

SMosley21

02-19-2013, 04:37 PM

Read some of the responses. They don't know anything about the team. It's not a fans are aware of them and don't go to games thing, it's Indiana citizens don't know a thing about these Pacers.

I really don't know how you fix that. Keep winning I suppose.

That's the only thing that will draw fans back in. You can't ignore continued success.

joew8302

02-19-2013, 05:12 PM

He is on point here. That said, was Indiana ever known as a big time NBA Market?

When I hear Indiana basketball I think college and high school (aka Hoosiers, Purdue, IU, Bob Knight, Keady, etc...)

CompACE

02-19-2013, 05:23 PM

I normally can't stand Cowherd but he's on point here.

Yep - I find Cowherd completely obnoxious, but he is right on this.

1984

02-19-2013, 05:32 PM

Wow, he nailed it. One point to Cowherd.

Shade

02-19-2013, 06:06 PM

He's not wrong.

Hicks

02-19-2013, 06:13 PM

Read some of the responses. They don't know anything about the team. It's not a fans are aware of them and don't go to games thing, it's Indiana citizens don't know a thing about these Pacers.

I really don't know how you fix that. Keep winning I suppose.

It wouldn't hurt if half of the games were still on channel 4. I know that is impossible now, but it would have helped because I believe a lot more of these folks would see for themselves that it ain't 2007 anymore.

Otherwise, I'm not sure. Maybe tackle the 'controversy' head on with media pieces on the local news with headlines like "Are the Pacers still thugs?" that then goes into the story explaining how that is anything but the case. Get Channel 13, 6, 8, FOX to do it. If they're game, of course. I would imagine they would be.

Hicks

02-19-2013, 06:15 PM

Ultimately, I believe if the locals (I won't call them fans) wanted to be there, they'd find excuses to go. Since they don't want to be there, they find excuses to stay away.

I don't know what will flick that switch, but if/when it does, things will change dramatically, I think.

I almost think it will take another 'Reggie moment' in the playoffs. A game winner 3ball against Miami might help.

Pacer Fan

02-19-2013, 06:18 PM

Well we do have 4 All-Stars...not many teams can say that!

Eddie Gill

02-19-2013, 06:18 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if Frank isn't using the empty seats as a motivational tool. The whole "us against the world" mentality is oft-discussed, but really couldn't be more appropriate for this Pacers teams. Our own city doesn't even show up for games.

Sollozzo

02-19-2013, 06:21 PM

Cowhered, like many here, doesn't understand that it's hard to undo SIX YEARS of ill will in just two seasons. I don't think people appreciate just how badly the Pacers ruined their image in the community from 2004-2010. You don't recover from that sort of devastation in just two seasons when you don't have a household name on the team. We are making process though, slowly but surely. We just have to keep winning.

People want to point the finger at the fans and not the organization which delivered an abysmal product over a six year period and completely tarnished their image. They have made amazing moves over the past few seasons, mostly because of Larry Legend, but the shadow of the ugly years still looms large.

Hicks

02-19-2013, 06:34 PM

Cowhered, like many here, doesn't understand that it's hard to undo SIX YEARS of ill will in just two seasons. I don't think people appreciate just how badly the Pacers ruined their image in the community from 2004-2010. You don't recover from that sort of devastation in just two seasons when you don't have a household name on the team. We are making process though, slowly but surely. We just have to keep winning.

People want to point the finger at the fans and not the organization which delivered an abysmal product over a six year period and completely tarnished their image. They have made amazing moves over the past few seasons, mostly because of Larry Legend, but the shadow of the ugly years still looms large.

That's all well and good if we want to blame PS&E for creating this mess.

But that doesn't help with the new problem: Those fame folks who stopped caring don't even seem to know what the hell is going on anymore! It would be perfectly fair IMO to excuse their absence if things hadn't changed, but they HAVE DRASTICALLY CHANGED! They're living on 6 year old information now, and it's well past time they be educated as to what the hell is ACTUALLY HAPPENING at the Fieldhouse now.

DangerGranger3pointranger

02-19-2013, 06:38 PM

This is sadly true, but I think Indy needs to wake up and realize that Cowherd has a point

Young

02-19-2013, 06:48 PM

I caught a little of JMV today and I think Cowhered also said people to go to Pacers games because Indianapolis is racist?

I use to think that people didn't go to Pacers games for a number of reasons including

- Lack of money
- No star player
- They weren't winning
- The brawl
- Off the court issues
- Style of play

In the end I think what it comes down to is Indiana just isn't an NBA state. The typical NBA fan is probably a bigger fan of the star player than they are the team. Since the Pacers don't have a star you won't see many Pacer fans fill the arena. People here enjoy high school and college more. At one time sure people would come out to see Pacer games but that era is over and this one is much different. This is more of an NBA problem than a Pacers problem. The national media didn't care before when nobody came to watch the Pacers at home but all of a sudden they are.

JOB was an awful coach for the Pacers BUT he did manage to cut ties with all of the thug imaginery that the Pacers had in the ensuing years of the brawl.

That coach (I still refuse to say his name) didn't do that. Larry Bird did. The coach did nothing more than take a band of misfit players who just happened to be pretty good citizens (thanks to Larry making sure of that) and teach them that spacing the floor was the most important method of winning basketball games.

Nuntius

02-19-2013, 07:14 PM

That coach (I still refuse to say his name) didn't do that. Larry Bird did. The coach did nothing more than take a band of misfit players who just happened to be pretty good citizens (thanks to Larry making sure of that) and teach them that spacing the floor was the most important method of winning basketball games.

I certainly agree with that. It was indeed Larry's doing but I have to include JOB as well since he was the coach.

My main point was that the JOB era sucked a lot basketball-wise but PR-wise there weren't any issues.

Dr. Goldfoot

02-19-2013, 07:27 PM

I'm pretty sure people dont go to high school games anymore either. I've gone to a few over the last few years and it appears they can't even get the students to these games.

Roaming Gnome

02-19-2013, 07:31 PM

I'm sure Pacers Play-offs will be the hottest & toughest ticket in town in a couple months... I'm not worried about casuals and the regular season. Heck, MSA sat 2,000 fewer and wasn't at capacity during regular season play when it seemed like the Pacers owned this town!

Pacersalltheway10

02-19-2013, 07:35 PM

When people call the current group of Pacers thugs, then it could come across as a racist comment.
Indiana the state is still very racist it will stay that way until the last generations of the KKK era die out.

PR07

02-19-2013, 07:35 PM

I wouldn't say the NBA is basketball purism. The people that market it know it's just as much about entertainment, as it is basketball.

BillS

02-19-2013, 09:41 PM

That coach (I still refuse to say his name) didn't do that. Larry Bird did. The coach did nothing more than take a band of misfit players who just happened to be pretty good citizens (thanks to Larry making sure of that) and teach them that spacing the floor was the most important method of winning basketball games.

I know it is much more fun to remember things so they make a good story, but, like it or not, one thing JOB did was to change the discipline in the locker room. If you are going to fawn all over Larry for doing the job, you have to accept HIS OWN WORD that JOB changing the culture was a big part of it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Sollozzo

02-19-2013, 09:52 PM

Just imagine what a conference semifinals series victory against the Knicks would do for fan support.

Sandman21

02-19-2013, 09:54 PM

Derek Schultz ‏@Schultz1260

Several callers today have complained that the Pacers' games are "too loud". Wow. Loudness, eh? That's something I hadn't considered.

:picardriker:

Bridge

02-19-2013, 10:20 PM

When people call the current group of Pacers thugs, then it could come across as a racist comment.
Indiana the state is still very racist it will stay that way until the last generations of the KKK era die out.

The KKK is the reason the Pacers have low attendance? Seriously?

I think the problem is with the entire league rather than just the Pacers. I don't enjoy NBA basketball like I used to. I think the NBA is more of a show and entertainment than an actual basketball game. I would rather watch college or high school basketball.

Mo Tibbs

02-19-2013, 10:58 PM

Derek Schultz ‏@Schultz1260

Several callers today have complained that the Pacers' games are "too loud". Wow. Loudness, eh? That's something I hadn't considered.

:picardriker:

I spit out my drink on that one.

And Bridge I liked your post because I like your post but also because I like your avatar pic.

Pacersalltheway10

02-19-2013, 11:47 PM

The KKK is the reason the Pacers have low attendance? Seriously?

I think the problem is with the entire league rather than just the Pacers. I don't enjoy NBA basketball like I used to. I think the NBA is more of a show and entertainment than an actual basketball game. I would rather watch college or high school basketball.

You got that from my post? Seriously? I guess I should have put "On another note".

I just thought that an adult would have the necessary comprehension skills to understand that.

Pacersalltheway10

02-19-2013, 11:50 PM

The KKK is the reason the Pacers have low attendance? Seriously?

I think the problem is with the entire league rather than just the Pacers. I don't enjoy NBA basketball like I used to. I think the NBA is more of a show and entertainment than an actual basketball game. I would rather watch college or high school basketball.

If you want me to give you a complete breakdown of my post for you, I can.

Trader Joe

02-19-2013, 11:51 PM

Just keep winning...just keep winning

Pace Maker

02-20-2013, 12:31 AM

I know it is much more fun to remember things so they make a good story, but, like it or not, one thing JOB did was to change the discipline in the locker room. If you are going to fawn all over Larry for doing the job, you have to accept HIS OWN WORD that JOB changing the culture was a big part of it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
Can't forget Paul George attributed his defensive mindset to JOB too.

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 12:33 AM

Can't forget Paul George attributed his defensive mindset to JOB too.

JOB did his job. Bird was just too loyal. I'd say give John Wall JOB his first 2 years in Washington and he'd be better for it with those rosters, but Wall's a point guard. Allegedly anyway.

Midcoasted

02-20-2013, 01:23 AM

JOB did his job. Bird was just too loyal. I'd say give John Wall JOB his first 2 years in Washington and he'd be better for it with those rosters, but Wall's a point guard. Allegedly anyway.

I made a long posting the other day and deleted it because I was praising JOB too much. haha. Anyways I really respect what JOB did here now that he is gone. He instilled discipline and defense in the young core. Also a tad of resentment but I think that drove players like Hibbert and George and Stephenson and Hansbrough to develop the way they have. I feel like Bird gave him the 4th year as a thank you for making a terrible starting 5 medicore while we were on the plan to acquire and develop young talent. Let's face it, without the extension and subsequent firing, Vogel never becomes coach and we might have missed out on the diamond in the rough for a polished turd. I mean you can't give Bird anything less than an A because we got Vogel, regardless of how it happened. The end result speaks for itself. He did initially see enough in the guy to hire him as an interim and give him his shot. And then signed him to his first head coaching gig on any level.

All this proves is Larry Bird really is truly a freaking legend! Even now in Pacers land for what he left us with for the future. I really hope he returns in a more limited, but powerful role. We owe it all to Larry!

Cactus Jax

02-20-2013, 01:27 AM

I wouldn't say Tyler has really developed anything that new in the NBA, maybe slightly better defense, but his offense is identical to what he did in college, he just got more foul calls in college. Lance and PG barely even played under JOB, Hibbert I can agree got on the path of being better even though there were a lot of hardships.

Midcoasted

02-20-2013, 01:34 AM

I wouldn't say Tyler has really developed anything that new in the NBA, maybe slightly better defense, but his offense is identical to what he did in college, he just got more foul calls in college. Lance and PG barely even played under JOB, Hibbert I can agree got on the path of being better even though there were a lot of hardships.

See I think you are mistaking a lack of playing time with a lack of skill and/or progress. He still gets those fouls called in the NBA. He is second on the team and he does not even get 15 minutes a game. If he got starter minutes he would easily lead the team in getting to the line, and it would not be close. The worst thing that ever happened to Tyler's game is the arrival of David West. If Tyler was still getting starter minutes he would be easily averaging 15 and 10. And I don't think we are any worse off record wise. Granger was supposedly our best player and our record is identical without him. And supposedly last year was the year our record could have been a fluke.

Have you seen how much his court vision and passing has improved since his rookie year? He makes some pretty excellent passes and reads compared to where he was two years ago. It's not his fault his man seems to always miss easy looks.

In my mind it would be a travesty to sign West for 12 million and let Tyler walk for 6. I would take Tyler every time in that deal, because he will give you similar numbers and a bit more defense and hustle with half the pay. I stand alone on that, but I will not alter my opinion because the vast majority says otherwise. If I went with what the vast majority said PG would never be an All Star and Lance would be in jail right now. It gets tiring defending your position against the masses when your opinions could be just as right, and are in many circumstances.

Coopdog23

02-20-2013, 08:42 AM

Hate Cowherd

Coopdog23

02-20-2013, 08:43 AM

Assuming he's still on his pout that his Patriots lost to the Ravens

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 08:55 AM

several of the responses to Cowheard caught my attention, but this one really did. He must be joking.

He thinks that no team in the East should bother beating the Heat because he said back in 2010 when Lebron signed that they were going to win 3 straight and he believes he's right with everything he says and he'll never be wrong. That's why he pretty much got kicked off SportsNation (also because they moved to LA)

FlavaDave

02-20-2013, 09:33 AM

The biggest problem is the national media. Major media outlets do not cover the Pacers enough in proportion to their achievements.

The casual fan isn't reading the Star, because no one is reading The Star. The casual fan doesn't read Pacers news on Twitter, because they don't follow Pacers-related Twitter feeds. Their friends aren't sharing Pacers news on Facebook, largely because no one is writing about the Pacers. The Pacer's ad campaigns don't do anything, because they a) largely air on FSN, a channel that you need to already be a Pacers fan to be watching, and b) of course the Pacers like the Pacers (if you follow me).

The casual fan gets sports news from ESPN, with a sprinkling of si.cnn.com or Yahoo! Sports thrown in (or the like). These outlets (especially ESPN) barely mention the Pacers. Did you see the recap of the All-Star Game that had several people in double digits but omitted Paul George's 17 points? If you only watched the ESPN highlights, you literally wouldn't even know that PG was in the game, let alone one of the top scorers for the East.

How does this tie in to the attendance problem? Look at the ignorance of the casual fans that has been exposed on The Star, Facebook, and this Cowherd thing. People have no idea how good the Pacers are, what their players are like, what the future holds. Because no one is reaching them to tell them.

It would be a different story if people said "Oh, I know the Pacers have an all-time great defense, a future superstar, a great young coach, extremely cheap ticket prices, and 4 All-Stars on their team. I'm just not interested." But they aren't. They are saying "They are thugs, they suck, they have no chance, the games are too expensive."

That is just frustrating. The national media could set them straight, but the national media doesn't want to cover the Pacers. And that is the most frustrating.

vapacersfan

02-20-2013, 09:47 AM

I wish I could find the post from yesterday (perhaps from Solozzo) on this topic.

IMO the problem is not the national media, though I could see where that could help.

Sorry to anyone like Rob or other PS&E employees who read this site, but lots of things locally could help IMO:

More TV time on all networks. Show how the team is diffrent. Show guys personalities more. And not commercials. Show 10 minutes with GG. with PG. With Hibbert

Do specials showing how the team has changed since the brawl. No player is left.

Blast twitter and facebook. Not with deals of the day. Not with deals of the week. With puff pieces about the Pacers. Maybe even ones where the players show up to local school and churches.

IMO part of the problem is the last time PS&E did a HUGe marketing campaign, **** hit the fan and to be blunt it failed miserable.

These are just my .02 from someone in VA. Maybe I am off base on what they have tried to do and maybe it is a lost cause. I sure as hell hope that is not the case, though

I've been saying this for a few months, and I repeat your sentiment, no offense to Rob or anyone. The team needs to go on a viral marketing campagn.

vapacersfan

02-20-2013, 09:50 AM

It wouldn't hurt if half of the games were still on channel 4. I know that is impossible now, but it would have helped because I believe a lot more of these folks would see for themselves that it ain't 2007 anymore.

Otherwise, I'm not sure. Maybe tackle the 'controversy' head on with media pieces on the local news with headlines like "Are the Pacers still thugs?" that then goes into the story explaining how that is anything but the case. Get Channel 13, 6, 8, FOX to do it. If they're game, of course. I would imagine they would be.

Sorry, this is part of what I was talking about.

I could not agree more,

BillS

02-20-2013, 09:50 AM

Derek Schultz ‏@Schultz1260

Several callers today have complained that the Pacers' games are "too loud". Wow. Loudness, eh? That's something I hadn't considered.

To be completely honest, since the new sound system went in the volume has gone up considerably. I have seriously considered bringing foam earplugs - last home game there were times when it actually hurt my ears. My wife's ears were ringing.

The problem is that they aren't adjusting the new sound capacity to the actual people in the arena. Before the game and in the first quarter (since most people on a weeknight seem not to get in until 2Q), it is almost deafening. They should gradually turn it up as the arena fills so it is appropriate.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 09:50 AM

Then again I do remember when WTHR had this huge vendetta (back during 2006-08) it seemed and no matter what happened they always tried to blow up any situation with the team.

vapacersfan

02-20-2013, 09:52 AM

Cowhered, like many here, doesn't understand that it's hard to undo SIX YEARS of ill will in just two seasons. I don't think people appreciate just how badly the Pacers ruined their image in the community from 2004-2010. You don't recover from that sort of devastation in just two seasons when you don't have a household name on the team. We are making process though, slowly but surely. We just have to keep winning.

People want to point the finger at the fans and not the organization which delivered an abysmal product over a six year period and completely tarnished their image. They have made amazing moves over the past few seasons, mostly because of Larry Legend, but the shadow of the ugly years still looms large.

This as well.

I use the weight loss comparison a lot, but it is true.

Things are not going to recover overnight. It takes time.

And IMO a deep playoff run will help....a lot.

At least I hope that is the case.

Perhaps I am just naive, but I remember the fieldhouse the finals year. I remember it being a packed house. I want that so bad I would sell my soul to get that back (if I had a soul)

RWB

02-20-2013, 09:55 AM

Before the game and in the first quarter (since most people on a weeknight seem not to get in until 2Q), .
As discussed before.... if folks can't make it in until the 2nd quarter there is a problem.

vapacersfan

02-20-2013, 09:58 AM

As discussed before.... if folks can't make it in until the 2nd quarter there is a problem.

I disagree.

That was normal when I lived in Florida, and I see it in DC.

I think that is just part of the animal of dealing with week day games.

Sure I cannot imagine missing one second of game time, but not everyone is a die hard

RWB

02-20-2013, 10:03 AM

I disagree.

That was normal when I lived in Florida, and I see it in DC.

I think that is just part of the animal of dealing with week day games.

Sure I cannot imagine missing one second of game time, but not everyone is a die hard

And VA I have to disagree with that point. :D If I'm a casual I'm not paying for a full ticket if I'm not getting the complete game. Casuals don't show up too often so if they are missing part of the game they feel like it's not worth going then. It's not like a concert where you don't really care about missing the opening band. Actually the die hards are more willing to miss the 1st quarter knowing the game doesn't really start/matter until the 4th quarter.

RWB

02-20-2013, 10:06 AM

Also I'll continue to harp on this until I'm blue in the face.... The Bucks 17 Saturday/Sunday home games. The Pacers 5!!! You want to sell a few more of those half season packages? Then give us a half season that features 17 Saturday/Sunday home games please.

vapacersfan

02-20-2013, 10:07 AM

And VA I have to disagree with that point. :D If I'm a casual I'm not paying for a full ticket if I'm not getting the complete game. Casuals don't show up too often so if they are missing part of the game they feel like it's not worth going then. It's not like a concert where you don't really care about missing the opening band. Actually the die hards are more willing to miss the 1st quarter knowing the game doesn't really start/matter until the 4th quarter.

I see your point, though I dont 100% agree with it, but then it gets into start times of games.

No clue who/what determines that, but it is weird to me how some places tip off at 6:45/7 and other wait until 7-7:30 - 8

I always assumed it was part TV deals, part a comprmise of filling the house and having people stay up to watch the games.

Mr_Smith

02-20-2013, 10:13 AM

Alot of people in this state/City know nothing about the pacers. WRTV facebook page brought up the discussion of Cowherds comments and the ignorant posts just baffled me. Most of these people in the backward state are still stuck between 2004-2006 thinking there are still "thugs" on the team.

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 10:23 AM

I see your point, though I dont 100% agree with it, but then it gets into start times of games.

No clue who/what determines that, but it is weird to me how some places tip off at 6:45/7 and other wait until 7-7:30 - 8

I always assumed it was part TV deals, part a comprmise of filling the house and having people stay up to watch the games.

TV would rather start games at 8:00 or 8:30. The 7:00 start time is based upon market research surveys the Pacers and other teams have taken over the years. Almost every team in the NBA except the largest markets have gone to 7:00 starts.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 10:27 AM

TV would rather start games at 8:00 or 8:30. The 7:00 start time is based upon market research surveys the Pacers and other teams have taken over the years. Almost every team in the NBA except the largest markets have gone to 7:00 starts.

I'd much rather have an 8 PM start.

graphic-er

02-20-2013, 10:33 AM

7:30 Works the best.

As fars marketing is concerned. They had those great commericals last year just before the playoffs. Talking about "The hometown hero" and various other commercials about individual players. They should probably rehash those and actually put them on the local stations.

I also thought the player billboards from last year were really successful.

But from general point they need to tell this market that the Pacers are the hottest team in the NBA this year.

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 10:43 AM

If the pacers thought for one second 7:30 or 8:00 or 8:30 would get more people to the games they would change the start times tomorrow. TV would love the later start time.

billbradley

02-20-2013, 10:47 AM

You start games at 8, you just lose folks that say the games end too late.

RWB

02-20-2013, 10:51 AM

Slow update on those Saturday/Sunday home games per team this season. Pacers still have the least amount so far.

I am the fan that they are talking about. Was a huge Pacers fan for the longest time. Then things just went south and interest declined. It started with the brawl. Then Reggie retired. Then the whole Artest saga and them trying to build the team around O'Neal who I hated. Then JOB and his awful coaching. On a scale of 1 to 10 the Pacers went from probably an 8/9 to around a 3 through all that. I still follow them from afar. I know what they're doing but catching a game isn't of great importance to me anymore. I cancelled the NBA package 2 years ago (I have to have it to get most Pacers games) after having it for 6 or 7 seasons straight and I don't miss it at all. I'm not a fan of the NBA to begin with. Never was. That brand of basketball doesn't appeal to me beyond whatever interest in the Pacers I have. I will probably watch the playoffs when they get here but I have my doubts they can beat the Heat come playoff times because the NBA is built for the stars and when it comes down to it, the Lebron James and Derek Roses (when he comes back) will get every call when it matters.

Bottom line is that they can blame whatever they want for a lack of local interest in the Pacers but it's not our job to be interested in them. It's their job to entertain us and watching the Pacers or going to a game is way down my list of things to do on an average night. Perhaps it's how the NBA has changed or perhaps it's how I have changed. Probably both. I just don't care nearly as much as I used to and the NBA as a whole isn't enjoyable to me. I can honestly say that I've watched more NHL this season, even with the lockout-shortened season, than NBA and it really isn't even close and I don't even have a favorite NHL team.

I do think it's an interesting topic though (which is why I came to this board after I saw it on twitter - to see what the die-hard fans were saying about it) and I'm inclined to agree with those saying that Indy isn't an NBA town. People will show up come playoff time but not enough people are going to devote the time and money it takes to go to 41 home games over a season that spans about half the year. The product just doesn't warrant that type of investment from me and apparently there's a significant number of fans that have their own reasons as well.

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 11:00 AM

RWB, I realize it doesn't help you any, but the Pacers do have 13 home games on Friday nights - that has to be one of the most by any team in the NBA.

And pacers only have 1 more home Sat/Sun game left the rest of the season.

Bucks only have 4 Friday night home games.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:01 AM

Read some of the responses. They don't know anything about the team. It's not a fans are aware of them and don't go to games thing, it's Indiana citizens don't know a thing about these Pacers.

I really don't know how you fix that. Keep winning I suppose.
It's beyond embarrassing. When NATIONAL audiences know the team more and are more interested than the local citizens...well the excuses just fall extremely false.

I don't need more ranting I suppose, I've spoken my peace on this tenfold already.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:06 AM

well, maybe just one...

People will show up come playoff time but not enough people are going to devote the time and money it takes to go to 41 home games over a season that spans about half the year.
Here's my only problem with this and why I call bulls*** on the "we don't like NBA in Indy".

They DO sell-out games for teams like LAL, MIA, CHI and NYK. So LOCALS WILL PAY to see STARS, the very thing they claim to hate and say the NBA is all about. Oh, if we had Kobe then we'd come, but also we respect team basketball not the star iso brand of the NBA.

People talk out of both sides of their mouth on this subject which is why it ticks me off so much. The Pacers brand of ball is DRAMATICALLY better than what IU, Butler or any local HS team plays. The guys play great team defense, the team wins with different guys stepping up each night, and the raw talent level isn't even close. Orlando Johnson was a great NCAA player and he struggles to find PT.

CreekShow

02-20-2013, 11:08 AM

Colin is about to have Vogel on The Herds next segment. Hes been on a Pacer kick the last 2 days. Hope he keeps it up

Since86

02-20-2013, 11:11 AM

well, maybe just one...

Here's my only problem with this and why I call bulls*** on the "we don't like NBA in Indy".

They DO sell-out games for teams like LAL, MIA, CHI and NYK. So LOCALS WILL PAY to see STARS, the very thing they claim to hate and say the NBA is all about. Oh, if we had Kobe then we'd come, but also we respect team basketball not the star iso brand of the NBA.

Do you REALLY expect anything different?

Other than diehard Pacer fans, who in the hell wants to watch the Pacers play the freaking Kings?

Sollozzo

02-20-2013, 11:20 AM

Do you REALLY expect anything different?

Other than diehard Pacer fans, who in the hell wants to watch the Pacers play the freaking Kings?

On a cold Wednesday night in January when they've been working all day, nonetheless.

People can whine about this being a lame excuse all they want, but if you live in Carmel and get off work downtown at 5 o'clock, then attending a weeknight game against some scrub team isn't a desirable scenario. Driving back home seems silly, because as soon as you get back home you are going to have to turn around and head back downtown. So your only option is to hang around downtown for two hours. So by the time the game is over and you get home, it's 10 o'clock and you've literally been gone since like 8 a.m. You haven't had any time to hang out with the wife or kids. Plus, you literally have to immediately go to bed because you have to get up for work the next morning. If you aren't a diehard Pacer fan, then forfeiting so much of your valuable time on a cold winter's night to see the Pacers play some joke team simply isn't worth it. You'll wait for Friday night when it's far more desirable. Call that a weak excuse if you want, but not everyone's lives revolve around the Pacers. The weekend games seem to get decent attendance, but it's those weeknight games that kill us. They simply aren't desirable for a lot of people.

Derek2k3

02-20-2013, 11:23 AM

Man. I just don't get it.

Every time I walk into the Fieldhouse it feels like Christmas. I drive 2 hours to get downtown, and I absolutely love going to games.

Ah, well, I suppose you can't force people to be fans.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:24 AM

Hell no. No way I'm letting this "JOB set the plate" myth get started. Not after 4 of the worst years in Pacers history in terms of poor coaching.

All of this is a rant on that, not really on topic.

JOB did his job. Bird was just too loyal. I'd say give John Wall JOB his first 2 years in Washington and he'd be better for it with those rosters, but Wall's a point guard. Allegedly anyway.
No he didn't. You can't take anything BillS or Buck say about JOB seriously because they defended every single thing he did.

Ask Peck about JOB "controlling" Tinsley. For all the benching of Tinsely by JOB, it came AFTER he let the guy run wild in the PHX loss and it came WAY WAY AFTER Carlisle benched Tinsley for a half a season in favor of Kenny Anderson.

JOB did NOT control Troy's poor defense or Mike's poor defense or Rasho's "I'm barely alive" efforts. Those guys all could have been taught a lesson about defense and benched in favor of guys who would try, but it was just the opposite.

If Bird had simply done his job and helped Rick the way BIRD HELPED JOB, which is TRADE THE GUYS, then Rick would have taught a much more dramatic level of defense than JOB did with his matador starting PF. Rick was told to make it work with JO and Tinsley, JOB was allowed to punt on Tinsley and then saw JO removed from the picture.

Bird re-signed JOB but traded away his star pupil (Troy), acknowledging that Troy wasn't the right guy for the role but giving JOB support for using him in excess anyway. Bird led JOB run tons of minutes to "I seriously will only take 3PAs all game" Posey, another guy well past his defensive prime.

To me Bill and Buck are doing more to change history with JOB than we are. We complained the entire time about this stuff and none of it was any good. Yes, JOB was tough in the locker room allegedly, but everything we saw in PUBLIC in terms of comments, playing time and interaction with players said that JOB had a knack for tearing down all the young guys, basically the guys becoming the new core (Hibbert, Paul).

I once sat at the bench just days before JOB was fired. What I saw was Paul George come into the game and within 2 trips JOB pulled him over and chewed him out. I didn't see PG do anything wrong, and we all know that PG even in year one was a motivated, interested defensive talent. Meanwhile not one peep while I watched other guys letting their man beat them with poor effort.

JOB did NOT FIX THE CLUBHOUSE. He didn't get JO under control anymore than Rick did (no one ever did - see PHX), he didn't get Tinsley under control, he didn't get Shawne Williams under control, he didn't get TJ Ford under control, and he didn't get "suspended for pot" David Harrison under control.

Those players were finally moved. Great coaching.

Oh, let's not forget that Jarret Jack, not JOB, had to chastise TJ Ford for his ball hogging poor team play and after JOB sent him out of the game he came back the next game as the starter (hmm, think the GM or FO said something). Unfortunately for us they couldn't trade TJ and didn't want to pay J Jack.

Roy, Danny, Hill and West were great locker room types prior to JOB. West and Hill weren't even part of the JOB era. Roy and Paul struggled to get PT. Oh, and Danny turned into a 3P chucker instead of a guy that looked more like PG24 when he first started than a 7 3PA per game guy. It was Vogel that brought back the old Danny.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:27 AM

then attending a weeknight game against some scrub team isn't a desirable scenario
But why stay if it's the Lakers or Heat?

See this is the exact issue - the PACERS ARE THE SHOW, they are the Lakers or Heat. They have that kind of talent. People in other cities are starting to "stay downtown for a few hours on a weeknight" to see their teams play the Pacers. But in Indy people see them as the host team on par with the arena itself - just the thing that brings in a good show or bad show (depending on the opponent).

Since86

02-20-2013, 11:27 AM

JOB did NOT FIX THE CLUBHOUSE. He didn't get JO under control anymore than Rick did (no one ever did - see PHX), he didn't get Tinsley under control, he didn't get Shawne Williams under control, he didn't get TJ Ford under control.

The example of that would be Jim coming in and saying "if you don't practice, you don't play." And then finding out a year later that JO wasn't practicing.

RWB

02-20-2013, 11:32 AM

RWB, I realize it doesn't help you any, but the Pacers do have 13 home games on Friday nights - that has to be one of the most by any team in the NBA.

And pacers only have 1 more home Sat/Sun game left the rest of the season.

Bucks only have 4 Friday night home games.

Thanks UB, but as you have pointed out a Friday 7pm start is no different to me than any other night when you work Monday - Friday. If the Pacers decide to continue the same Friday grab then I still have hope they could at least move back that start time to 8pm.

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 11:34 AM

.

No he didn't. You can't take anything BillS or Buck say about JOB seriously because they defended every single thing he did.

I stopped reading your post after I read your sentence I quoted.

I am only speaking for myself, WTF are you talking about. I disagreed with many things he did. I just didn't think he was the worst coach ever like many others did. I thought I was balanced, very balanced.

To me Bill and Buck are doing more to change history with JOB than we are. We complained the entire time about this stuff and none of it was any good.

Another WTF. You find for me my posts where I have even discussed JOB since he was fired. Especially after the 2011 season was over. I have not started 1 thread on him, my posts have vbeen very, very few. So I honestly have no idea what you are referring to

RWB

02-20-2013, 11:37 AM

Do you REALLY expect anything different?

Other than diehard Pacer fans, who in the hell wants to watch the Pacers play the freaking Kings?

As a kid did anyone collect basketball cards? I did and of course I grew up a Pacer fan so those player cards were the most important to me. However, the kids in the neighborhood were more concerned about getting the top players. That fact in many ways doesn't even change into adult hood. Kind of like Since86 point here.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:40 AM

Do you REALLY expect anything different?

Other than diehard Pacer fans, who in the hell wants to watch the Pacers play the freaking Kings?

See my previous post. The Kings fan wants to see the PACERS. Fans like Cowherd are starting to view the Pacers as a team to go see. Heat fans don't go to see the Kings, they go to see the Heat.

The very idea that you think it's about the other team and only "die hards" would waste their time watching the Pacers says that you view the Pacers as a poor product not worth watching. Cowherd disagrees (like many of us) and is saying that the PACERS PRODUCT is one of the best in the NBA.

If you think it's worth going to see LAL, MIA, NYK, SAS, NYK or LAC play then you should also want to see IND play...regardless of what city you live in. The fact that the Pacers also happen to be the local team you should root for even when they aren't that good should only bolster the fan interest level to a point above interest in seeing MIA or LAL.

But Indy metro citizens don't view the Pacers as that caliber of a product. That's the problem. It's not a lack of support for the pitiful home team, it's lack of interest in the best basketball you can see within 180+ miles.

The instant IU sniffs top status you have everyone in Indy decked out in red, especially the non-IU grad fan types (this has always been an issue). All the "I don't have an allegiance" fans support IU - because Bobby Knight had a perfect season and won a couple more titles. Their kids and grandkids got raised on that in the way that Notre Dame has tons of non-affiliated local fans too.

The Colts had to beat ND football to death with a rock, with the help of ND being subpar, in order to become the home town football team. But in 1994 if you have the Colts going for a title and ND playing for a title on the same day....ND wins the ratings. And this is still true for IU basketball.

Game 7 Pacers vs SAS for NBA title vs IU in title game...not even close. 80% would watch IU, maybe more.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 11:43 AM

well, maybe just one...

Here's my only problem with this and why I call bulls*** on the "we don't like NBA in Indy".

They DO sell-out games for teams like LAL, MIA, CHI and NYK. So LOCALS WILL PAY to see STARS, the very thing they claim to hate and say the NBA is all about. Oh, if we had Kobe then we'd come, but also we respect team basketball not the star iso brand of the NBA.

People talk out of both sides of their mouth on this subject which is why it ticks me off so much. The Pacers brand of ball is DRAMATICALLY better than what IU, Butler or any local HS team plays. The guys play great team defense, the team wins with different guys stepping up each night, and the raw talent level isn't even close. Orlando Johnson was a great NCAA player and he struggles to find PT.

Everyone is different. Some people like the NBA brand, come to see stars, but aren't really Pacers fans. I would call myself a Pacers fan but I wouldn't spend 5 minutes watching Lebron James play any team other than the Pacers.

Again, you can claim that the Pacers brand of ball is better than any given college team someone might watch instead but it is all in the eye of the beholder. Additionally, many have personal ties to their college teams that they may not have to a professional team. I'm a Purdue grad and they are awful this year. I still watch every game because I'm a Purdue grad and I feel connected to them. I don't feel any personal connection to the Pacers anymore. I used to with Reggie on the team probably because I grew up watching him but there is no player I currently feel any type of loyalty to.

To get past this problem, people need to stop worrying about why people like what they like and concentrate on the reasons they don't like the Pacers. Whether or not you agree with their reasons doesn't really change anything. Maybe it is as simple as Indy isn't a great NBA market. Maybe there are a few reasonable action items that would help some. Like I said, everyone is different and reasons will vary. You're not going to be able to convert everyone but 10 years ago there were alot more Pacers fans at games than there are now so we know there were more people in the recent past that were willing to invest their time/money in the Pacers that no longer are. That would be the place I concentrate on if I were in Pacers marketing.

Since86

02-20-2013, 11:46 AM

The instant IU sniffs top status you have everyone in Indy decked out in red, especially the non-IU grad fan types (this has always been an issue). All the "I don't have an allegiance" fans support IU - because Bobby Knight had a perfect season and won a couple more titles. Their kids and grandkids got raised on that in the way that Notre Dame has tons of non-affiliated local fans too.

That's exactly right. If IU has such wild swings on their fan base outside of alum, and they've been Indiana's team for the past 60 years, why would you expect anything different when it comes from the Pacers?

I'm not defending the attitude, but it is what it is. Criticizing people isn't going to change it. It might make you feel better, but it does absolutely nothing to address the problem.

Maybe I just see the point of the attendance discussions differently. It proceeds like one big whinefest (not meant to be insulting) as opposed to talking about solutions.

PS&E need to figure out a way to attract people, not guilt people, into going.

graphic-er

02-20-2013, 11:46 AM

I am the fan that they are talking about. Was a huge Pacers fan for the longest time. Then things just went south and interest declined. It started with the brawl. Then Reggie retired. Then the whole Artest saga and them trying to build the team around O'Neal who I hated. Then JOB and his awful coaching. On a scale of 1 to 10 the Pacers went from probably an 8/9 to around a 3 through all that. I still follow them from afar. I know what they're doing but catching a game isn't of great importance to me anymore. I cancelled the NBA package 2 years ago (I have to have it to get most Pacers games) after having it for 6 or 7 seasons straight and I don't miss it at all. I'm not a fan of the NBA to begin with. Never was. That brand of basketball doesn't appeal to me beyond whatever interest in the Pacers I have. I will probably watch the playoffs when they get here but I have my doubts they can beat the Heat come playoff times because the NBA is built for the stars and when it comes down to it, the Lebron James and Derek Roses (when he comes back) will get every call when it matters. Okay so this is the problem I have with your opinion. You say you haven't had in interest in this team or the league for over half a decade, yet you feel you can comment on their chances of beating the Heat or Bulls. Whats that all about? How about you watch the team and know the team before you can sit there and write them off.

Star players get calls, they have the ball in their hands more. Thats how basketball at every level of play works. Sure refs miss or blow calls, but they do that at every level too. There was alot of talk last year in the playoffs vs the Heat with all the blown calls, but that in general is how playoff basketball is played. The refs let guys be a bit more physical in general so just running over a guy in the open court isn't a flagrant 2.

Bottom line is that they can blame whatever they want for a lack of local interest in the Pacers but it's not our job to be interested in them. It's their job to entertain us and watching the Pacers or going to a game is way down my list of things to do on an average night. Perhaps it's how the NBA has changed or perhaps it's how I have changed. Probably both. I just don't care nearly as much as I used to and the NBA as a whole isn't enjoyable to me. I can honestly say that I've watched more NHL this season, even with the lockout-shortened season, than NBA and it really isn't even close and I don't even have a favorite NHL team.

Now this is hilarious. You chastise our team for getting into a fight, yet you like Hockey where players fight every night and the refs sit there and let it happen. Whats it going to be? A **** storm blows up in Detroit 10 years ago with fans throwing beer at our players, throwing trash on our players, coming after our players. That offends you, but fighting is okay in Hockey though.

I do think it's an interesting topic though (which is why I came to this board after I saw it on twitter - to see what the die-hard fans were saying about it) and I'm inclined to agree with those saying that Indy isn't an NBA town. People will show up come playoff time but not enough people are going to devote the time and money it takes to go to 41 home games over a season that spans about half the year. The product just doesn't warrant that type of investment from me and apparently there's a significant number of fans that have their own reasons as well.

I just can't stand people who admit that haven't even paid attention to the league or the team in 6-8 years and say they dont' like the NBA. You don't know the NBA!

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:49 AM

More off-topic JOB talk

I stopped reading your post after I read your sentence I quoted.

I am only speaking for myself, WTF are you talking about. I disagreed with many things he did. I just didn't think he was the worst coach ever like many others did. I thought I was balanced, very balanced.

Another WTF. You find for me my posts where I have even discussed JOB since he was fired. Especially after the 2011 season was over. I have not started 1 thread on him, my posts have vbeen very, very few. So I honestly have no idea what you are referring to
I feel that it has been discussed from time to time over the last few years, but I have no quotes I can think of so I should pull you off the list. So apart from BillS suggesting that PG was trained on defense by JOB and Heisenberg talking about locker room discipline within this thread, I rescind my comments directed at any of you.

I honestly think I recall occasional drop-ins by the two of you in other threads that followed the line of thinking I'm attacking here, but maybe it was other people or maybe I misread something or maybe I'm just nuts. I feel certain I've seen it brought up previously but it's very possible it wasn't you.

I'm sorry if you didn't suggest that JOB was a big part of making this current roster what it is, I really am.

graphic-er

02-20-2013, 11:50 AM

See my previous post. The Kings fan wants to see the PACERS. Fans like Cowherd are starting to view the Pacers as a team to go see. Heat fans don't go to see the Kings, they go to see the Heat.

The very idea that you think it's about the other team and only "die hards" would waste their time watching the Pacers says that you view the Pacers as a poor product not worth watching. Cowherd disagrees (like many of us) and is saying that the PACERS PRODUCT is one of the best in the NBA.

If you think it's worth going to see LAL, MIA, NYK, SAS, NYK or LAC play then you should also want to see IND play...regardless of what city you live in. The fact that the Pacers also happen to be the local team you should root for even when they aren't that good should only bolster the fan interest level to a point above interest in seeing MIA or LAL.

But Indy metro citizens don't view the Pacers as that caliber of a product. That's the problem. It's not a lack of support for the pitiful home team, it's lack of interest in the best basketball you can see within 180+ miles.

The instant IU sniffs top status you have everyone in Indy decked out in red, especially the non-IU grad fan types (this has always been an issue). All the "I don't have an allegiance" fans support IU - because Bobby Knight had a perfect season and won a couple more titles. Their kids and grandkids got raised on that in the way that Notre Dame has tons of non-affiliated local fans too.

The Colts had to beat ND football to death with a rock, with the help of ND being subpar, in order to become the home town football team. But in 1994 if you have the Colts going for a title and ND playing for a title on the same day....ND wins the ratings. And this is still true for IU basketball.

Game 7 Pacers vs SAS for NBA title vs IU in title game...not even close. 80% would watch IU, maybe more.

THanked one million times!

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 11:59 AM

That's exactly right. If IU has such wild swings on their fan base outside of alum, and they've been Indiana's team for the past 60 years, why would you expect anything different when it comes from the Pacers?

I'm not defending the attitude, but it is what it is. Criticizing people isn't going to change it. It might make you feel better, but it does absolutely nothing to address the problem.

Maybe I just see the point of the attendance discussions differently. It proceeds like one big whinefest (not meant to be insulting) as opposed to talking about solutions.

PS&E need to figure out a way to attract people, not guilt people, into going.
No, I'm saying IU does NOT have wild swings in allegiance. They struggled with stuff just as damaging as the Pacers IMO (cheating coach, alleged drug use by players - EJ suggested this as I recall) and had some losing years. For the most part this actually paralleled the Pacers run of "bad press" followed by sub-par play.

But all along IU fans still showed up. Not to the extent that they are now, but you certainly didn't have "OMG, Assembly is only 25% full" nights. Fans grumbled about the ups and downs, but they still followed the team.

And my point is that IU is the local team. The Pacers are Butler or Purdue, the "other" team that if they do really, really well (ie, title run) then they might go to a game.

I was walking around downtown the other day and passed a place on Market. It had the Pacers schedule in the window...and it SHOCKED me. My wife suggested that it was poor marketing by the Pacers to not have more places promoting the team as the big, local "thing". In other cities you see this, even for down teams. Bars and restaurants have schedules and banners, other stores have flyers or smaller signage up or on the counter or whatever.

In the 90's this was true of downtown. You'd see tons of Pacers stuff, at least by 98-2000. That thing suggests who the "home town" team is. Think of your workplace and who has a mini-poster or coffee cup, etc in their work area. For me I've been the only "Pacers fan" in that way for at least 5 years. But I see tons of IU and ND t-shirts, hear the water cooler discussion, etc.

And even through the Pacers heyday you still saw good representation of IU basketball in those same places.

The Pacers had a better season last year than the Colts did, but the amount of signage or things like shirts at Target, etc was dramatically in favor of the Colts. To me those "casual" interactions that remind people who the local team is says the most about their spot in the metro area. And right now it's shocking to see Pacers stuff of any form anywhere outside the BILF.

Sollozzo

02-20-2013, 12:02 PM

The Colts had to beat ND football to death with a rock, with the help of ND being subpar, in order to become the home town football team. But in 1994 if you have the Colts going for a title and ND playing for a title on the same day....ND wins the ratings. And this is still true for IU basketball.

Game 7 Pacers vs SAS for NBA title vs IU in title game...not even close. 80% would watch IU, maybe more.

Notre Dame being more popular than the Colts in 1994 probably has something to do with the fact that Colts had been here just ten years in 1994, whereas Notre Dame had decades upon decades of excellence, as well as a still-fresh 1988 championship.

The Colts moved here in 1984 with Baltimore's name and colors. Many here had loyalties to teams like the Packers, Bears, Benglas, or Cowboys. Building a fanbase takes time. You have to build some sort of identity with the city you play in. That's why teams like the Cowboys, Packers, Steelers, and Niners have such large fanbases. They have decades upon decades worth of success and excellence. Something like that isn't built in a day. But now the Colts have played here for almost 30 years and have made their own history in Indianapolis. We cut one of the greatest players ever, yet didn't blackout a single game. Before you say "yeah, that's because we went on a crazy 11-5 run", let me remind you that no one knew we would win 11 games at the beginning of the season. No one knew we would win 11 games when we played the Vikings in Sept, but the game sold out. No one knew we'd win 11 games when we played the Jags in Sept, but the game still sold out. No one knew that we'd win 11 games when we were 2-3 and played the pathetic Browns in October, but the game sold out.

Why does it matter if an IU championship game would get superior ratings if it were up against a Pacers game 7 on the Finals? They don't play that on the same day.

Since86

02-20-2013, 12:03 PM

No, I'm saying IU does NOT have wild swings in allegiance.

IU bandwagon fans are every where right now.

IU doesn't have attendance problems, beacuse of their massive alumni base. But when IU is down, support from non-IU alum drops off a cliff, and vice versa when they become good again.

We live in a state of frontrunners. Most of my friends are Bulls fans (those that watch the NBA anyways). :puke:

Since86

02-20-2013, 12:07 PM

And it's silly to compare the NBA to the NFL. Having 8 open dates to go to a game compared to 41 cannot be understated. Rarity always impacts value.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 12:09 PM

I don't feel any personal connection to the Pacers anymore. I used to with Reggie on the team probably because I grew up watching him but there is no player I currently feel any type of loyalty to.
And how did you acquire that personal connection to Reggie? Did he come to your house or save your dog?
;) (meant in non-snarky tone)

He made ESPN highlights and was shown on the news, that's how. If someone didn't tell you Reggie was worth watching you wouldn't know he existed. He didn't win you over by being a nice guy and you probably didn't know about him in 1990.

Following up on that - how can the current team make a personal connection to you? You don't follow the team, watch games or do anything that would create a connection to them. So it's self-fulfilling. You don't connect to them so you refuse to connect to them.

Or are you saying that you have tried and you just don't like their brand of basketball, you don't like West's post-game or PG's defense or Hill being a local hero or Roy's personality? I mean that sincerely. If you are saying you took time to take a "listen" to what they are all about and said "nah, not for me, I know everyone else thinks they are a great band but I just don't connect to the music" then that's fine.

But if you are saying "I never liked the Beatles....aren't they the ones that sang Ring My Bell" then that is on you, not the team.

I guess my question to casual fans is the simple one - "what DO you want from this team that they don't currently provide?". In terms of connection to them I mean. Skip the ticket prices or driving distance because Assembly Hall ain't free and it sure as F isn't easy to get to either, not from Indy metro let alone Fishers.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 12:18 PM

Okay so this is the problem I have with your opinion. You say you haven't had in interest in this team or the league for over half a decade, yet you feel you can comment on their chances of beating the Heat or Bulls. Whats that all about? How about you watch the team and know the team before you can sit there and write them off.

Star players get calls, they have the ball in their hands more. Thats how basketball at every level of play works. Sure refs miss or blow calls, but they do that at every level too. There was alot of talk last year in the playoffs vs the Heat with all the blown calls, but that in general is how playoff basketball is played. The refs let guys be a bit more physical in general so just running over a guy in the open court isn't a flagrant 2.

Now this is hilarious. You chastise our team for getting into a fight, yet you like Hockey where players fight every night and the refs sit there and let it happen. Whats it going to be? A **** storm blows up in Detroit 10 years ago with fans throwing beer at our players, throwing trash on our players, coming after our players. That offends you, but fighting is okay in Hockey though.

I just can't stand people who admit that haven't even paid attention to the league or the team in 6-8 years and say they dont' like the NBA. You don't know the NBA!

1. You having a problem with my opinion doesn't change anything. Obviously you are an NBA fan. I'm not. We're likely to disagree on the entertainment value of it. The fact that you disagree isn't going to get me in that seat or tuned in tonight.

2. I still see NBA highlights. I hear and read things. I know enough about the NBA to know that the Heat won last year and are favorites to win again this year. Just because I don't devote myself to the league doesn't mean I'm completely obllivious to what's going on. And yes, I still maintain the opinion that the stars will get more than their fair share of calls, particularly in the playoffs. Maybe I'm mistaken about that given that I don't watch every second of NBA basketball but you'll have to remind me of who won the title last year.

3. I'm not an NHL fan. I'm just picking it up more this year and I find it infinitely more watchable than 48 minutes of NBA basketball. Fighting really has nothing to do with my interest in hockey. To be honest, the biggest reasons my interest in the Pacers plummeted were Reggie's retirement, JO's existence, and JOB's coaching. As for the brawl, the main disappointment for me was how Stern handled the whole thing and it really made me less of an NBA fan in general moreso than just losing interest in the Pacers. I appreciate your attempt to take one of many reasons I gave and doing your best to make it look hypocritical but that's a huge reach to make.

4. Where do you expect to pick up new fans from if you don't listen to the people who don't currently watch the NBA product? Like I said before, I'm not completely oblivious to everything NBA. I will occasionally bet on a game on a Friday night when there really isn't any other sporting event going on. I follow the Pacers record, their position in the standings, and will watch a few games and probably the playoffs. If I were in marketing and trying to get more people to Pacers games, I'd be targeting people like me in the Indy area (I now live near the South Bend area). However, nothing is to be gained for telling me I'm wrong for liking what I like or not liking what I don't like.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 12:21 PM

And it's silly to compare the NBA to the NFL. Having 8 open dates to go to a game compared to 41 cannot be understated. Rarity always impacts value.
But it's 60000 seats you have to fill, so "rarity" isn't quite true. It's easier to get into a Colts game in terms of available seats per game.

However the upper level of BILF is going for 5-10 on the market and the team offers a lot of deals in that range too. You can't see the Colts for 10 and I'm not even sure you could last year.

See I'm not asking for someone to buy 40 tickets, just 10 tickets. If all 60000 Colts ticket holders wanted to go to the game at the same time they couldn't. So you break them into 4 groups of 15000 each, each buys the same ticket package price they buy for the Colts games and that gets you a solid 15000 per game right there.

And if Colts fans could go to a couple more games they'd sell those out too, so it's safe to say that there is money for more than 15K per night. And since the average price of a Colts ticket is more than a Pacers ticket a lot of fans could afford to buy a mini PLUS a couple of other games.

The city HAS FILLED BILF all season in the past. The money is there and the fanbase is there. The only thing is perhaps so many Sunday games, but to be fair the Colts typically played several MON, THR and SUN night national TV games during the season too, and if anything there is more interest in those game than the Sunday at 1pm....though in fairness those games carried a sense of prestige.

Yes the Bobcats and Raps come to town 4 times a year, but the Nets and Nuggets games don't do any better. It's not simply a "bad opponent" issue. The Bobcats and Raps are like the Colts preseason games - 4 of 40 vs 2 of 10. I get people skipping those as just "man, I can't get fired up for it". But 80% of the Pacers home schedule are pretty interesting matchups or division rivals. The Colts had home games vs JAX and TEN and people have no problem going to those and I didn't include them as part of the "bad" games.

Naptown_Seth

02-20-2013, 12:24 PM

Also let me just say that I appreciate the debate Since86. It feels like I'm getting after YOU, but it's simply the topic. You are bringing up valid counterpoints to be debated and I'm enjoying that.

By definition we always say that PD posters aren't the typical fans, and that's true for this debate as well.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 12:25 PM

IU remained one of the top 10 attended teams in the nation every year while they were down, but comparing IU to the Pacers is not a fair fight. Apples to oranges.

BillS

02-20-2013, 12:29 PM

Does it occur to anyone that this is a PERFECT example that it is easier to retain a customer than to get them back once they are disaffected or get a new one?

In reality, it almost doesn't matter WHY someone drifted away. Once they drifted away, they have lost the habit of being a part of the entire experience. To get them back into the habit you don't just have to overcome their reasons for leaving in the first place, you have to actually get them interested enough to try again. The first part may be easier than we think, because people answering why the second part isn't working often, out of self-justification, will use the same excuses they think they had for leaving rather than saying, "Yeah, you're right, I just really don't care any more" - mainly because that latter statement seems very hard to defend even in the case of a cognitive dissonance over whether the circumstances/costs/personalities/whatever are not what they once were.

BillS

02-20-2013, 12:31 PM

IU remained one of the top 10 attended teams in the nation every year while they were down, but comparing IU to the Pacers is not a fair fight. Apples to oranges.

This. One thing people downplay is that there is a built-in audience (student body) and a constantly replenishing source of new potential fans for any college team. Add that to the people who have tight associations to their college identity and you really have to screw the pooch to lose a fan base.

graphic-er

02-20-2013, 12:34 PM

2. I still see NBA highlights. I hear and read things. I know enough about the NBA to know that the Heat won last year and are favorites to win again this year. Just because I don't devote myself to the league doesn't mean I'm completely obllivious to what's going on. And yes, I still maintain the opinion that the stars will get more than their fair share of calls, particularly in the playoffs. Maybe I'm mistaken about that given that I don't watch every second of NBA basketball but you'll have to remind me of who won the title last year.

Who one the title 2 years ago? The Mavericks comprised of a bunch of aging veterans and an aging Dirk Nowitzky. That right there basically throws your stars comment out the window. If it were true, then there is no way the Heat would have lost to the Mavs. My gosh it should have been a free throw line parade to the title for the Heat, how could an old and slow Dallas team achieve such a feat.

3. I'm not an NHL fan. I'm just picking it up more this year and I find it infinitely more watchable than 48 minutes of NBA basketball. Fighting really has nothing to do with my interest in hockey. To be honest, the biggest reasons my interest in the Pacers plummeted were Reggie's retirement, JO's existence, and JOB's coaching. As for the brawl, the main disappointment for me was how Stern handled the whole thing and it really made me less of an NBA fan in general moreso than just losing interest in the Pacers. I appreciate your attempt to take one of many reasons I gave and doing your best to make it look hypocritical but that's a huge reach to make. Well guess what, Reggie Miller dont' give a **** out the Pacers today, JO hasn't been here for about 5 seasons now, JOB is gone, and David Stern is retiring! All we got is a bright young team with a great future, and superstar level player in the making. You outta feel really good about that.

4. Where do you expect to pick up new fans from if you don't listen to the people who don't currently watch the NBA product? Like I said before, I'm not completely oblivious to everything NBA. I will occasionally bet on a game on a Friday night when there really isn't any other sporting event going on. I follow the Pacers record, their position in the standings, and will watch a few games and probably the playoffs. If I were in marketing and trying to get more people to Pacers games, I'd be targeting people like me in the Indy area (I now live near the South Bend area). However, nothing is to be gained for telling me I'm wrong for liking what I like or not liking what I don't like.

Listening? You haven't even offered why you dont like them today and what it will take for you to like them. You haven't even given them chance by the sound of it.

BillS

02-20-2013, 12:34 PM

So apart from BillS suggesting that PG was trained on defense by JOB and Heisenberg talking about locker room discipline within this thread, I rescind my comments directed at any of you.

Well, no, you've got the referrals wrong.

I could just as easily say "ahh, there goes Seth, no need to pay any attention to what he says because he always blames everything on JOB".

My only point was that if Bird is the reason for the turnaround (which he was made so in the post I was responding to), and Bird credited JOB for many of the changes, at what point is Bird credible or not?

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 12:36 PM

Does it occur to anyone that this is a PERFECT example that it is easier to retain a customer than to get them back once they are disaffected or get a new one?

In reality, it almost doesn't matter WHY someone drifted away. Once they drifted away, they have lost the habit of being a part of the entire experience. To get them back into the habit you don't just have to overcome their reasons for leaving in the first place, you have to actually get them interested enough to try again. The first part may be easier than we think, because people answering why the second part isn't working often, out of self-justification, will use the same excuses they think they had for leaving rather than saying, "Yeah, you're right, I just really don't care any more" - mainly because that latter statement seems very hard to defend even in the case of a cognitive dissonance over whether the circumstances/costs/personalities/whatever are not what they once were.

This is pretty true. Sometimes we all don't realize the fans that lost interest aren't the weird ones, we are. I mean we watched year after year of "might get the 8 seed!" Pacers. And not even because we enjoyed it just....because?

RWB

02-20-2013, 12:36 PM

Well after looking a little further into my own Saturday/Sunday attendance debate I'm at a toss-up. Attendance still isn't great for the few games we've had on Saturday, but considering the team played could it have been worse? I don't know, it's all debatable.

It's not just the amount of seats to fill. It's the actual event. The demand for Colts tickets is huge. When people want to go to Colts games, and the games against NE/Pitt/etc, are going to get filled quickly and by people that can afford the majority of those on secondary markets.

So that pushes people down the line. They can't go to the big draws, so they settle for the Bengals/Browns/etc. It's pusing people into a tighter space, forcing them into a very limited number of opportunities to go.

BillS

02-20-2013, 12:39 PM

I am the fan that they are talking about. Was a huge Pacers fan for the longest time. Then things just went south and interest declined. It started with the brawl. Then Reggie retired. Then the whole Artest saga and them trying to build the team around O'Neal who I hated. Then JOB and his awful coaching. On a scale of 1 to 10 the Pacers went from probably an 8/9 to around a 3 through all that. I still follow them from afar. I know what they're doing but catching a game isn't of great importance to me anymore. I cancelled the NBA package 2 years ago (I have to have it to get most Pacers games) after having it for 6 or 7 seasons straight and I don't miss it at all. I'm not a fan of the NBA to begin with. Never was. That brand of basketball doesn't appeal to me beyond whatever interest in the Pacers I have. I will probably watch the playoffs when they get here but I have my doubts they can beat the Heat come playoff times because the NBA is built for the stars and when it comes down to it, the Lebron James and Derek Roses (when he comes back) will get every call when it matters.

I want to say thanks for this perspective in spite of the vitriol it is getting from other quarters.

I think your position is much more likely the majority situation - as I said above, it isn't that you think the circumstances are the same as they were in those years, you just lost interest and haven't seen a compelling reason to come back. The difference, I think, is that you are willing to at least explain that rather than just blame the old circumstances. Maybe that, in and of and for itself, is as far as marketing the team can go this season without some kind of breakout event that causes people to embrace the team.

RWB

02-20-2013, 12:43 PM

I want to say thanks for this perspective in spite of the vitriol it is getting from other quarters.

I would like to second Bill's thought. Hope Reggie4Three continues to visit and add his/her thoughts.

idioteque

02-20-2013, 12:49 PM

I know I should be nicer to Indy's frontrunner fans and convince the people I am still in contact with back home to come back, but I don't suffer fools and don't have the patience to convince people when there is overwhelming evidence that this Pacers team isn't the 2004 so-called "thug" squad that so many people hate. There is so much freaking evidence. People just choose to ignore it. I can't handle the backward mentality people have toward the Pacers.

When the Washington Nationals were the worst team in baseball in 2009 their attendance was under 23,000. They were a contender last year and their attendance rose over 30,000. Yeah, bigger, more lucrative market, but there are tons more games and MLB isn't what it once was. I wish people in my hometown would REACT TO THE EVIDENCE IN FRONT OF THEM and buy a $5 ticket to check the Pacers out. Because you won't get tickets that cheap anywhere else.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:04 PM

On a cold Wednesday night in January when they've been working all day, nonetheless.

People can whine about this being a lame excuse all they want, but if you live in Carmel and get off work downtown at 5 o'clock, then attending a weeknight game against some scrub team isn't a desirable scenario. Driving back home seems silly, because as soon as you get back home you are going to have to turn around and head back downtown. So your only option is to hang around downtown for two hours. So by the time the game is over and you get home, it's 10 o'clock and you've literally been gone since like 8 a.m. You haven't had any time to hang out with the wife or kids. Plus, you literally have to immediately go to bed because you have to get up for work the next morning. If you aren't a diehard Pacer fan, then forfeiting so much of your valuable time on a cold winter's night to see the Pacers play some joke team simply isn't worth it. You'll wait for Friday night when it's far more desirable. Call that a weak excuse if you want, but not everyone's lives revolve around the Pacers. The weekend games seem to get decent attendance, but it's those weeknight games that kill us. They simply aren't desirable for a lot of people.

Apparently no one met me.

Bedford/Bloomington to Indy is much worse than Carmel to Downtown. I do it. Others can.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 01:13 PM

And how did you acquire that personal connection to Reggie? Did he come to your house or save your dog?
;) (meant in non-snarky tone)

He made ESPN highlights and was shown on the news, that's how. If someone didn't tell you Reggie was worth watching you wouldn't know he existed. He didn't win you over by being a nice guy and you probably didn't know about him in 1990.

Following up on that - how can the current team make a personal connection to you? You don't follow the team, watch games or do anything that would create a connection to them. So it's self-fulfilling. You don't connect to them so you refuse to connect to them.

Or are you saying that you have tried and you just don't like their brand of basketball, you don't like West's post-game or PG's defense or Hill being a local hero or Roy's personality? I mean that sincerely. If you are saying you took time to take a "listen" to what they are all about and said "nah, not for me, I know everyone else thinks they are a great band but I just don't connect to the music" then that's fine.

But if you are saying "I never liked the Beatles....aren't they the ones that sang Ring My Bell" then that is on you, not the team.

I guess my question to casual fans is the simple one - "what DO you want from this team that they don't currently provide?". In terms of connection to them I mean. Skip the ticket prices or driving distance because Assembly Hall ain't free and it sure as F isn't easy to get to either, not from Indy metro let alone Fishers.

That's all fair. I acknowledge that I'm not as reachable at 35 as I was at 10 years old. Like I said, part of it has to do with how I've changed and part of it has to do with how the league and team has changed. I now have different responsibilities and and values at 35 than I did at 10 and I don't think that's a bad thing. At 10, all I knew or cared was that Reggie just stuck it to the Knicks (or whoever) and people were talking about the Pacers like a nationally prominent team like they never had before and that was really cool to me. The Pacers/Colts/Yankees/Purdue winning was alot higher in importance to me from 10-20 than it is at 35. I'm not even sure it's possible to develop that same type of connection as I did when I was just a kid.

I feel like I've given plenty of time to the Pacers over the years. While I can't sit through 48 min of regular season NBA basketball anymore, I probably watched large portions of 6-8 regular season games last year when they were playing the Bulls (the local tv team where I live) or I was at someone's house who might have had the NBA ticket or if they happened to be nationally televised. So they have that opportunity to connect to me. They also had all of the playoffs which I think I watched almost all of. It's not as if I completely avoid them but compared to 10 years ago when i probably averaged 75 games a season and playoffs it is a huge dropoff.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:14 PM

IU bandwagon fans are every where right now.

IU doesn't have attendance problems, beacuse of their massive alumni base. But when IU is down, support from non-IU alum drops off a cliff, and vice versa when they become good again.

We live in a state of frontrunners. Most of my friends are Bulls fans (those that watch the NBA anyways). :puke:

You would think that, but having been in the Bloomington area for the past 11 years that isn't true. IU left a bad taste in everyone's mouth after firing Knight, but they stood behind Davis then Sampson until they each wore out their welcome.

Armon Basset and Kelvin Sampson killed IU in 2008 from a competitive standpoint.

The spirit here in Bloomington for the basketball team hasn't changed, however.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:18 PM

3. I'm not an NHL fan. I'm just picking it up more this year and I find it infinitely more watchable than 48 minutes of NBA basketball. Fighting really has nothing to do with my interest in hockey. To be honest, the biggest reasons my interest in the Pacers plummeted were Reggie's retirement, JO's existence, and JOB's coaching. As for the brawl, the main disappointment for me was how Stern handled the whole thing and it really made me less of an NBA fan in general moreso than just losing interest in the Pacers. I appreciate your attempt to take one of many reasons I gave and doing your best to make it look hypocritical but that's a huge reach to make.

"Just take me to the next block, I can walk from here."

I don't get it. You knew he wouldn't play forever.

Kid Minneapolis

02-20-2013, 01:18 PM

Indiana didn't follow the Pacers very well until a big star (Reggie) took the reins. Indiana didn't follow the Colts very well until a big star (Manning) took the reins. Does Indiana appreciate hard-nosed, well-played basketball? Sure we do, and those two stars fit that description. But Indiana fans need to look in the mirror, get off our high horses, and come to grips with the reality that we like stars, too. Stars bring interest. People have to be interested.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 01:20 PM

Indiana didn't follow the Pacers very well until a big star (Reggie) took the reins. Indiana didn't follow the Colts very well until a big star (Manning) took the reins. Does Indiana appreciate hard-nosed, well-played basketball? Sure we do, and those two stars fit that description. But Indiana fans need to look in the mirror, get off our high horses, and come to grips with the reality that we like stars, too. Stars bring interest. People have to be interested.

In this same vein, those stars also brought winning. People like winning and they aren't just going to show up overnight. The Colts got lucky that Andrew ended up being all he was supposed to be and more. The Pacers unfortunately had a blip when they had to rebuild, the fans will come back.

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 01:20 PM

"Just take me to the next block, I can walk from here."

I don't get it. You knew he wouldn't play forever.

See. I told you we're the weird ones. The vast majority of people don't bleed sports like we do. If your favorite TV show killed off your favorite character and fired all the writers would you keep watching?

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:24 PM

See. I told you we're the weird ones. The vast majority of people don't bleed sports like we do. If your favorite TV show killed off your favorite character and fired all the writers would you keep watching?

Two and a Half Men still has a huge viewership. Haha.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 01:25 PM

Two and a Half Men still has a huge viewership. Haha.

Unfortunately.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:26 PM

Unfortunately.

Now now, you shouldn't air your opinions here. You'll become a martyr.

Since86

02-20-2013, 01:27 PM

You would think that, but having been in the Bloomington area for the past 11 years that isn't true.

It's completely different outside of Bloomington.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:28 PM

It's completely different outside of Bloomington.

IU really doesn't really need to reach that far, though.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 01:28 PM

"Just take me to the next block, I can walk from here."

I don't get it. You knew he wouldn't play forever.

My parents won't live forever either but I'll still miss them when they are gone.

Perhaps this is just how the life of a sports fan goes and you never really replace those favorite players you had as a kid.

naptownmenace

02-20-2013, 01:28 PM

No, I'm saying IU does NOT have wild swings in allegiance. They struggled with stuff just as damaging as the Pacers IMO (cheating coach, alleged drug use by players - EJ suggested this as I recall) and had some losing years. For the most part this actually paralleled the Pacers run of "bad press" followed by sub-par play.

But all along IU fans still showed up. Not to the extent that they are now, but you certainly didn't have "OMG, Assembly is only 25% full" nights. Fans grumbled about the ups and downs, but they still followed the team.

What percentage of those in attendance at Assembly Hall are a part of the current or past Alumni? My guess is 80%. Mid-Major College teams have the advantage of refreshing their fan base every year. Every year there are a large group of incoming freshmen from other parts of the US that suddenly become IU fans. Their family members tend to start following the team as well. A team like the Pacers will never have that luxury.

The Pacers, since they are still in this period of transition from disappointment to contender, have to go recruit fans.

I was walking around downtown the other day and passed a place on Market. It had the Pacers schedule in the window...and it SHOCKED me. My wife suggested that it was poor marketing by the Pacers to not have more places promoting the team as the big, local "thing". In other cities you see this, even for down teams. Bars and restaurants have schedules and banners, other stores have flyers or smaller signage up or on the counter or whatever.

In the 90's this was true of downtown. You'd see tons of Pacers stuff, at least by 98-2000. That thing suggests who the "home town" team is. Think of your workplace and who has a mini-poster or coffee cup, etc in their work area. For me I've been the only "Pacers fan" in that way for at least 5 years. But I see tons of IU and ND t-shirts, hear the water cooler discussion, etc.

And even through the Pacers heyday you still saw good representation of IU basketball in those same places.

The Pacers had a better season last year than the Colts did, but the amount of signage or things like shirts at Target, etc was dramatically in favor of the Colts. To me those "casual" interactions that remind people who the local team is says the most about their spot in the metro area. And right now it's shocking to see Pacers stuff of any form anywhere outside the BILF.

I've been shocked as well whenever I've come to town. Why is it that the only place you can purchase Pacers apparel is the Homecourt Gift Shop? I went to 3 stores last year before game 1 of the playoffs again Orlando and couldn't find 1 single Pacers t-shirt or hat. It's hard to even find a Pacers cap at one of the hat stores in the Malls. It reminds me of the 86-88 Pacers years when the team was becoming relevant but no one seemed to notice.

Fans, the local media, and merchants are to blame but it seems like the Pacers marketing has really missed the mark the past couple of years. They're making improvements but they really should try spending some more time on the ground.

I'm creating a thread to discuss ideas to get the Pacers Marketing team to come up with some new strategies.

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 01:29 PM

Two and a Half Men still has a huge viewership. Haha.

You see what I'm saying though? We're the people that see being a Pacers fan as a lifelong endeavor, regardless of what happens. I mean think about it, that's weird. Pretty much the only way I'd stop watching is if they moved. I might say there's others scenarios where I'd stop, but I wouldn't. I might hate watch them, but I'd watch.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 01:30 PM

It's completely different outside of Bloomington.

Indiana University has the third largest alumni base in the country. Bloomington is a small piece of a really big pie of fans.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:30 PM

My parents won't live forever either but I'll still miss them when they are gone.

Perhaps this is just how the life of a sports fan goes and you never really replace those favorite players you had as a kid.

I get it. Yes, we all miss Reggie. That is a given. But moving on is what everyone here has done.

Dude, its and endless cycle. It happens. We all like the Pacers (for partially the same reason that you did) but that carried on into newer players, coaches, etc. Life doesn't just stop because you think it should. It keeps going. We're on a roll (finally) and I respect the fact that you don't care for the NBA, I don't either. But if you don't care then maybe this isn't the place for you.

graphic-er

02-20-2013, 01:38 PM

I get it. Yes, we all miss Reggie. That is a given. But moving on is what everyone here has done.

Dude, its and endless cycle. It happens. We all like the Pacers (for partially the same reason that you did) but that carried on into newer players, coaches, etc. Life doesn't just stop because you think it should. It keeps going. We're on a roll (finally) and I respect the fact that you don't care for the NBA, I don't either. But if you don't care then maybe this isn't the place for you.

What I don't get is if he doesn't care for the NBA because all the superstar calls and what not, then this Pacers team is exactly the type of team he should get behind and root for. This team turns that idea on its head. We are the team that beats superstars. Just like we gonna beat Melo and Knicks tonight.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 01:40 PM

What I don't get is if he doesn't care for the NBA because all the superstar calls and what not, then this Pacers team is exactly the type of team he should get behind and root for. This team turns that idea on its head. We are the team that beats superstars. Just like we gonna beat Melo and Knicks tonight.

I agree. But he doesn't like the team anymore because Reggie is gone. That and JO was here.

Last time I checked Jermaine O'Neal was one of the greatest players to put on an Indiana uniform. But OK...

Since86

02-20-2013, 01:47 PM

Indiana University has the third largest alumni base in the country. Bloomington is a small piece of a really big pie of fans.

Right. But the pie still shrinks and expands based off how good IU is. It's the same concept with Pacers fans, or any bandwagon.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 01:55 PM

I get it. Yes, we all miss Reggie. That is a given. But moving on is what everyone here has done.

Dude, its and endless cycle. It happens. We all like the Pacers (for partially the same reason that you did) but that carried on into newer players, coaches, etc. Life doesn't just stop because you think it should. It keeps going. We're on a roll (finally) and I respect the fact that you don't care for the NBA, I don't either. But if you don't care then maybe this isn't the place for you.

But it didn't carry on to new players for me. The years the Pacers had the likes of Jim O'Brien, Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, and most of all Jermaine O'Neal as the core group I absolutely hated watching the team and major parts of it. They completely lost me so it's not like it just rolled over from then to now. There's a large gap there spanning a number of years where I was just completely soured on the team and league.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm convincing people here to agree with me or my reasoning. I'm just trying to offer my perspective on the problem because I think in the long term it could cost the city the team and even though I'm no longer a big fan like I was I think its positive for the city to have the team. Not everyone out there left the Pacers for the same reasons as me but I think there's probably a significant portion like me. How to re-engage that part of your fan base? I don't have a simple answer to that.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 02:01 PM

I agree. But he doesn't like the team anymore because Reggie is gone. That and JO was here.

Last time I checked Jermaine O'Neal was one of the greatest players to put on an Indiana uniform. But OK...

He was a "me" player that cared more about getting his 20 and 10 and running his stupid night club than how many wins the Pacers got. IMO the worst day in Pacers history was not the brawl but rather the day they signed him to a long-term max deal. I'm sure that won't be a popular opinion here either but now we're really digressing from the topic of this thread.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 02:16 PM

But it didn't carry on to new players for me. The years the Pacers had the likes of Jim O'Brien, Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, and most of all Jermaine O'Neal as the core group I absolutely hated watching the team and major parts of it. They completely lost me so it's not like it just rolled over from then to now. There's a large gap there spanning a number of years where I was just completely soured on the team and league.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm convincing people here to agree with me or my reasoning. I'm just trying to offer my perspective on the problem because I think in the long term it could cost the city the team and even though I'm no longer a big fan like I was I think its positive for the city to have the team. Not everyone out there left the Pacers for the same reasons as me but I think there's probably a significant portion like me. How to re-engage that part of your fan base? I don't have a simple answer to that.

But these players NOW don't? What are you even doing here then?

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 02:17 PM

Right. But the pie still shrinks and expands based off how good IU is. It's the same concept with Pacers fans, or any bandwagon.

The alumni pie is consistent though, and it is a much bigger pie than the Pacers have. Just the benefit of college sports vs. pro. I'm not saying colleges don't have bandwagon fans. I'm just saying that for most colleges bandwagon fans are a luxury. In pro sports, you can argue that band wagon fans are a necessity.

Since86

02-20-2013, 02:18 PM

Why are you trying to run off someone who's interest in the Pacers is returning?

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 02:18 PM

Why are you trying to run off someone who's interest in the Pacers is returning?

Me? He said he didn't care.

Since86

02-20-2013, 02:19 PM

The alumni pie is consistent though, and it is a much bigger pie than the Pacers have. Just the benefit of college sports vs. pro. I'm not saying colleges don't have bandwagon fans. I'm just saying that for most colleges bandwagon fans are a luxury. In pro sports, you can argue that band wagon fans are a necessity.

Agreed. Seth was saying that IU doesn't have that happen, I was saying yes they do. It might be on a different scale, and it might be less important, but it's there.

Since86

02-20-2013, 02:20 PM

Me? He said he didn't care.

I'm reading it as he didn't care then. Obviously he cares now, or he wouldn't be here.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 02:22 PM

I'm reading it as he didn't care then. Obviously he cares now, or he wouldn't be here.
You might be gathering that, but I am not. I went back and saw that he said he couldn't connect with this team. That those factors really killed it for him, period.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 02:23 PM

I will say one thing I've noticed about die hard Pacers fans, is that we are kind of holier than thou nowadays. We do look down on people who wavered or even left, and new fans, well may God help them. We need bandwagons fans folks. We had them.

Not to call out our European and international folks, because they are great fans, but for all intents and purposes a lot of them are here because we were GOOD and we had Reggie, same with out of state folks. This isn't bad, but a lot of people now just get branded bandwagon, well that is how it works a lot of the time. Not everyone can be a dyed in the wool, let me tell y'all about how bad the early 80s were fan. They jsut can't.

Instead of branding new fans as bandwagon or whatever, embrace the hell out of them, and then they become fans for life.

Since86

02-20-2013, 02:24 PM

You might be gathering that, but I am not. I went back and saw that he said he couldn't connect with this team. That those factors really killed it for him, period.

So even if that's true, telling him to leave isn't the way to fix the problem. We should be encouraging him to come back, not actively pushing him out the door.

BPump33

02-20-2013, 02:25 PM

I will say one thing I've noticed about die hard Pacers fans, is that we are kind of holier than thou nowadays. We do look down on people who wavered or even left, and new fans, well may God help them. We need bandwagons fans folks. We had them.

Not to call out our European and international folks, because they are great fans, but for all intents and purposes a lot of them are here because we were GOOD and we had Reggie, same with out of state folks. This isn't bad, but a lot of people now just get branded bandwagon, well that is how it works a lot of the time. Not everyone can be a dyed in the wool, let me tell y'all about how bad the early 80s were fan. They jsut can't.

Instead of branding new fans as bandwagon or whatever, embrace the hell out of them, and then they become fans for life.

I KNOW you are right, but it's hard for me to feel that way. I'm very protective over these guys and when people have been talking nothing but garbage about them for years, it's hard to accept those people as fans now. Like I said, I know you are right. It's just hard to accept.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 02:26 PM

So even if that's true, telling him to leave isn't the way to fix the problem. We should be encouraging him to come back, not actively pushing him out the door.

I'd like him to come back, but he keeps throwing out negatives and nothing positive about the team we currently have. What is the point?

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 02:27 PM

If you don't think there is some kid out there who wants a PG jersey now because of what he did in the AS game, then you won't get this, but when I see guys at the BLF with Kobe, Wade, Bron, Durant etc. unis all I think is man, one day I hope those are George jerseys, and I hope 5 years from now I can go to a Cavaliers message board and hear them complaining about all those damn bandwagon Pacer fans.

You don't get bandwagon fans unless you deserve it.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 02:29 PM

I KNOW you are right, but it's hard for me to feel that way. I'm very protective over these guys and when people have been talking nothing but garbage about them for years, it's hard to accept those people as fans now. Like I said, I know you are right. It's just hard to accept.

Look I totally get this, and I'm not trying to chastise us for feeling that way. I was there the first 50 games of Paul's rookie year when he was glued to the pine and JOB was slowly sucking out our souls one Roy benching at a time. I get it all, we've watched these kids grow up.

But when I see one of my buddies who used to rep Butler every day wearing IU gear now, I give him **** for a day or two and then I drop it. You want to know why? Because it feels damn good to know that IU is good again. And we should feel that way about the Pacers too. Paul, Roy, West....they've earned the right to some bandwagon fans.

I hope we get more.

BPump33

02-20-2013, 02:30 PM

Look I totally get this, and I'm not trying to chastise us for feeling that way. I was there the first 50 games of Paul's rookie year when he was glued to the pine and JOB was slowly sucking out our souls one Roy benching at a time. I get it all, we've watched these kids grow up.

But when I see one of my buddies who used to rep Butler every day wearing IU gear now, I give him **** for a day or two and then I drop it. You want to know why? Because it feels damn good to know that IU is good again. And we should feel that way about the Pacers too. Paul, Roy, West....they've earned the right to some bandwagon fans.

I hope we get more.

Like I said, you're right. I just have a hard time feeling that way. I'm not running people off or even saying anything to anyone, but part of me resents those people. I probably always will.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 02:32 PM

I have folks I went to college with that would ***** and moan whenever I would flip the P's on. Boring...thugs...I've heard it all.

Now I get text from those guys, "Man did you see what Paul did tonight?" I chuckle a bit to myself, but then I am just happy. Much as it may annoy us, these are the people we need. They are coming back.

BPump33

02-20-2013, 02:33 PM

And keeping the team here is priority #1. I get that.

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 02:34 PM

Guys, at some point we were all new fans. Call it new, bandwagon, whatever. I don't care. I'd LOVE if I could go to the bar and have more than one guy I could shoot the bull with about the Pacers. Mostly because that guy sort of smells bad, but still.

Reggie4Three

02-20-2013, 02:35 PM

So even if that's true, telling him to leave isn't the way to fix the problem. We should be encouraging him to come back, not actively pushing him out the door.

Thanks. I figured not everyone would be happy with me expressing my personal experience here but it's just my honest thoughts and feelings on the matter. The people, like you, that are willing to engage and have a real conversation are the ones I'm concerned with. An individual telling me to leave isn't going to change anything for me. I just assume they lack perspective.

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 02:36 PM

But these players NOW don't? What are you even doing here then?

Dude, why so hostile? Whether or not I agree with the guy it'd do this forum a helluva lot of good to actually engage in a discussion with a real life "casual fan."

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 02:39 PM

Dude, why so hostile? Whether or not I agree with the guy it'd do this forum a helluva lot of good to actually engage in a discussion with a real life "casual fan."

Not hostile. Confused.

BPump33

02-20-2013, 02:47 PM

Guys, at some point we were all new fans. Call it new, bandwagon, whatever. I don't care. I'd LOVE if I could go to the bar and have more than one guy I could shoot the bull with about the Pacers. Mostly because that guy sort of smells bad, but still.

I completely agree. I want the casual fan back because it means the team is staying. Everyone wins. Well, except for the fact that we won't have our entire section to ourselves anymore, but I suppose I can live with that. :D

BillS

02-20-2013, 02:49 PM

I'd like him to come back, but he keeps throwing out negatives and nothing positive about the team we currently have. What is the point?

I don't see any negatives about the team we currently have, just not a lot of things that we think of as positive are engaging him. That's really valuable to know, if you think about it.

No question the old negatives turned him (and a sh**load of others) off on the team. It's interesting to me that we have someone not claiming those things are still around, just saying that the mere fact of the changes isn't enough to get him excited anymore.

In other words, this isn't some idiot who isn't paying attention. It's someone aware of the situation but who isn't motivated. That's a whole different kettle of fish and deserves some respect.

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 02:50 PM

I think Pacers being on the FM dial again is valuable too.

presto123

02-20-2013, 03:14 PM

Alot of people in this state/City know nothing about the pacers. WRTV facebook page brought up the discussion of Cowherds comments and the ignorant posts just baffled me. Most of these people in the backward state are still stuck between 2004-2006 thinking there are still "thugs" on the team.

The brawl and all the other off the court incidents ended up doing WAY more damage to the Pacers organization than any of us realized at the time. I think attendance shows that in some ways the Pacers are STILL paying for it. Some casual fans have no desire to learn about today's Pacers. Just a shame that the team is still paying for it and not the "thugs" that put us in this position. Still amazes me that we had so many idiots on the team at the same time back then.

Heisenberg

02-20-2013, 03:36 PM

The people who still bring up the brawl weren't Pacers fans in the first place and wouldn't be today even if it never happened. It's just an excuse.

graphic-er

02-20-2013, 03:44 PM

He was a "me" player that cared more about getting his 20 and 10 and running his stupid night club than how many wins the Pacers got. IMO the worst day in Pacers history was not the brawl but rather the day they signed him to a long-term max deal. I'm sure that won't be a popular opinion here either but now we're really digressing from the topic of this thread.

THis is just completely off base, no wonder you aren't a fan anymore. JO in my opinion was the face of the franchise. He was an amazing player when they signed him to the extension. 3rd in MVP votes. How can you say he didnt' care about wins when the Pacers won 62 games with JO at the helm? They would have won just as many the next year if the crazy suspensions dont' happen. JO also embraced the community of Indianapolis. What in the world? DO you know why the signed him to the huge 7 year contract? Because the TPTB were quite concerned that with Reggie being gone soon that they would not have that transcendent star player they had for 18 years. They knew this market needed a huge star player, and they developed one. Why wouldn't they have signed him? They supposed to let him walk after developing him into on hell of a player? Of all the players to hate from that era, JO should not be on your list. You complain about him getting his stats, but look at the other side. He was the only player on that team that could score consistently! Is he supposed to defer to Dunleavy, Murphy, and Foster? Injuries happen and he tried to change his game to that of a jump shooting big man. Didn't work out so well.

Also I went to his night club a few times, it was different experience. I'm not sure why anyone would want to hang out on some nasty stinky beds and drink, but it looked neat the first couple of time I went. They had a nice Dance floor area though.

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 03:46 PM

I think Pacers being on the FM dial again is valuable too.

They were on FM last year, not this year. last year on 93.1 FM. This year back on AM 1070 the Fan.

Coverage at night is a lot less on the AM side. IU is on 93.1 this year, they were on 1070 last year..

Don't know the backstory

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 03:46 PM

They were on FM last year, not this year. last year on 93.1 FM. This year back on AM 1070 the Fan.

Coverage at night is a lot less on the AM side. IU is on 93.1 this year, they were on 1070 last year..

Don't know the backstory

No, 1070 just added an FM dial as well. So they are now on AM and FM. 107.5 FM

Mackey_Rose

02-20-2013, 03:47 PM

They were on FM last year, not this year. last year on 93.1 FM. This year back on AM 1070 the Fan.

Coverage at night is a lot less on the AM side. IU is on 93.1 this year, they were on 1070 last year..

Don't know the backstory

They probably got much, much better ratings for the IU games?

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 03:53 PM

One thing that no one else has brought up in this thread or the many others we've recently had on this topic.

I think this is a real factor. Lets say you are a sports fan, you like IU, you like the Pacers, you like the Colts. You don't have any strong history that is pushing you to one over the others. You like sports, you like attending sports, you like watching on TV. Or maybe you have moved into the area over the past two years. Stay with me. You decide to attend 1 Colts game, 1 IU game and 1 Pacers game to sort of get your feet wet, first time you have attended. Like I say you don't have a strong history with any of the three teams, you are open to becoming a die-hard of any of the three.

what do you think that newby comes away with. I think the takeaway is - wow the crowd at the Pacers game was dead, while the crowds at the Colts and IU were great. The Colts and IU seems like an event, and important event. Which event do you think that person would want to attend for a second time.

Not the Pacers game.

During the playoffs that built in advantage is neutralized, but in the regular season even though the crowds are much more into pacers games than they have been in a long time, it doesn't compare to Colts of IU. I think that is a huge factor.

But the Pacers regular season game atmosphere is not a huge draw to casual fans. Those who want to get into the game

Unclebuck

02-20-2013, 03:57 PM

No, 1070 just added an FM dial as well. So they are now on AM and FM. 107.5 FM

Thanks, I did not know that. I am usually on top of things like this, I wonder how many have no idea there is even a 107.5 FM

Drewtone

02-20-2013, 04:07 PM

Not hostile. Confused.

LOL! Duke, I think you're being branded as the Lil Wayne of PD!

BillS

02-20-2013, 04:08 PM

No, 1070 just added an FM dial as well. So they are now on AM and FM. 107.5 FM

Wow, I listen to 1070 every day when I go to work out and whenever I go to and from games and I never knew this. Were they planning on advertising it any time?

Trader Joe

02-20-2013, 04:14 PM

They've been pretty terrible at getting the word out about this.

Sandman21

02-20-2013, 04:27 PM

They just started like Monday officially.

doctor-h

02-20-2013, 04:35 PM

Well we do have 4 All-Stars...not many teams can say that!

God will you people stop with the 4 all stars. We had 1 all star. A true all star makes it multiple times not just once. Danny Granger was an all star 1 time. He won't be again. Hibbert has proven to be a fluke. David West has made it more than once and was probably deserving this year. Paul will make it several times IMO. The pacers have a good team and to me they are entertaining and fun to watch now. But alot of people could care less about them. Pacer management has got to figure that out and do something about it. This year they would be able to contend if added a couple of things. I think they need a shooter and a back up PG. It looks like they may stand pat. An early out in the playoffs will only contribute to fan apathy and set them back a little.

duke dynamite

02-20-2013, 04:43 PM

God will you people stop with the 4 all stars. We had 1 all star. A true all star makes it multiple times not just once. Danny Granger was an all star 1 time. He won't be again. Hibbert has proven to be a fluke. David West has made it more than once and was probably deserving this year. Paul will make it several times IMO. The pacers have a good team and to me they are entertaining and fun to watch now. But alot of people could care less about them. Pacer management has got to figure that out and do something about it. This year they would be able to contend if added a couple of things. I think they need a shooter and a back up PG. It looks like they may stand pat. An early out in the playoffs will only contribute to fan apathy and set them back a little.