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Hello all. Just joined the forum. I have been training in Aiki-kai for about 30 years with vast periods missing (no teacher in area), last year our area got a resident teacher and opened a club - great!!! I have also trained in a few styles of karate, including Matsamura Sieto Shorin-Ryu - (quiet different from any karate I have done before and different from other Shorin styles I have observed) and some Kobudo (Bo, Jo, Kama, Sai, Eku). Our Aikido club practices Bokken, Jo and sometimes Tanto.

I have been slowly going through some very interesting posts here - mostly in weaponry section. Wow, so much to read and respond to, but a lot of was posted some time ago, so .... ?

I am looking for some info on Ichi, Ni and San no Ken, exercises with the Bokken (actually all of them, I think there are 5 in this series). I tried a search and a visual through weapons but cant seem to find any refs.

Hello all. Just joined the forum. I have been training in Aiki-kai for about 30 years with vast periods missing (no teacher in area), last year our area got a resident teacher and opened a club - great!!! I have also trained in a few styles of karate, including Matsamura Sieto Shorin-Ryu - (quiet different from any karate I have done before and different from other Shorin styles I have observed) and some Kobudo (Bo, Jo, Kama, Sai, Eku). Our Aikido club practices Bokken, Jo and sometimes Tanto.

I have been slowly going through some very interesting posts here - mostly in weaponry section. Wow, so much to read and respond to, but a lot of was posted some time ago, so .... ?

I am looking for some info on Ichi, Ni and San no Ken, exercises with the Bokken (actually all of them, I think there are 5 in this series). I tried a search and a visual through weapons but cant seem to find any refs.

Anyone familiar with these exercises?

Thanks.

Hi,
Sounds like you are looking for the 5 kumitachi exercises.These are usually found on the Web.

Thanks guys. problem is I have no internet (only when I at the library) and the amount of time it takes to get through one of these clips ... if it works. But thanks again, I'll check those sites out.

The problem is I thought I had them, 1-5, down pretty good. Then our instructor left, now we either have no teacher or a series of visiting teachers or 'advanced students' who dont know them or dont want to do them or has a v.unusual take on whats going on with them.

Its also quiet frustrating, I've invested a bit of time and energy in learning them. I'm pretty sure of a movement, then its bought into question and when I ask the questioner to show me they cant Now, I feel, unless I can practice these with someone sensibly I am going to loose what I learnt.

I'm sure there are a few variations. There certainly are a lot of variations in WHAT people think they are doing with it?

Okay, I checked those clips and they are nothing like it. Also I search 5 kumitachi exercises - they are also nothing like it.
I searched Ichi, ni, san, no ken, no direct result.

Hmmm. These were taught by Sensai Sugano.
Each exercise has a student and teacher, student makes the first move, teacher always 'dies' at the end,

1. S moves in to break mai, T moves back. S attacks the top of head and T holds his sword horizontal (this is mai and target exercise). T cuts down, S receives. T slips sword tip under S's sword to other side and lunges at chest. S steps back and deflects, then lunges back, T steps back and deflects. S offers arm, T moves in to cut arm, S steps off line and cuts to T's head.

2. As above but T does not hold sword horizontal over head but steps back and cuts down as well. Continues as in 1

3. The same but T follows his first thrust with a leg attack, S, deflects and continues to end as above.

4. Same as 2 but on other side.

5. Same as 2 but T slips straight in and S drops tip and folds back to an outside deflection (his arms end up crossed and tip points down). Ends the same as others.

Is this familiar to anyone here?

(Sorry, not down with the correct Japanese terminology for each movement)

I am not familiar with the weapons techniques taught by Sugano Sensei but I am familiar with the 5 Kumitachi as taught by Chiba Sensei as well as the classical Iwama stlye. From what I can tell, Chiba sensei's kumitachi are the Iwama kumitachi with minor alterations added to reflect Chiba sensei's weapons. It is possible that Sugano Sensei either made his own adjustments, or taught them as they were taught in Iwama, I don't know. If you want to see the Iwama style search for "Saito sensei kumi tachi".I couldn't find any clips of Sugano Sensei doing the Kumi tachi but there are a number of Sugano Sensei weapons clips on YouTube. It is also possible that Sugano Sensei's ichi no Ken has nothing to do with the five Kumi tachi since Ichi no Ken just means first sword or sword movement 1, (Ichi=1, no=possessive grammatical particle, ken=sword) and could be an exercise of Sugano sensei's design.

For Sugano Sensei, OP will need someone from USAF ER to address the issue....
You may want to go to http://www.aikidoonline.com/ and contact someone there.

But since the OP is in Australia I am sure that there are as many if not more people in the Australia Aikikai that can provide information on Sugano Sensei and his weapons. While Sugano Sensei was an instructor at NY Aikikai and a respected Shihan by everyone in the USAF, in my experience, most USAF Eastern region instructors consider themselves to be primarily students of Yamada Shihan or Kanai Shihan.

Cliff: I don't know anything about Kashima Shinto Ryu, but I believe that the kumitachi that Chiba sensei teaches come from O sensei. He learned them from Osensei and Saito sensei in Iwama. I thinks he later made some adjustments to accommodate the way his own Bukiwaza had developed, which included Iaido. Saito sensei, I believe, claimed that the way he presented them was exactly as O sensei taught them.

What's the story with aikiken kata number one being the same thing as Kashima Shinto Ryu's kata number one?

It seems that Ueshiba took it more or less as it was and incorporated it into his own training.

Quote:

I am aware that O Sensei and Kisshomaru both trained Kashima Shinto Ryu, and there seems to be a strong Kashima Shinryu influence, I guess via Inaba, in mainstream aikiken.

At least Kisshomaru trained, O Sensei observed classes.

Is there a strong Kashima Shinryu-influence in mainstream aikiken? I know that Yamaguchi-line aikido seems to practice Kashima Shinryu-influenced aikiken but outside of that lineage it really doesn´t seem that common.

It seems that Ueshiba took it more or less as it was and incorporated it into his own training.

At least Kisshomaru trained, O Sensei observed classes.

Is there a strong Kashima Shinryu-influence in mainstream aikiken? I know that Yamaguchi-line aikido seems to practice Kashima Shinryu-influenced aikiken but outside of that lineage it really doesn´t seem that common.

I guess it depends on where you stand, but from my perspective its a strong flavoring. The primary hombu guy to bring Kashima Shinryu in seems to be Inaba Sensei. I am not sure if Yamaguchi learned from him, or also trained officially, but Tissier Sensei picked a lot of it up, and Gleason Sensei as well. These teachers were quite upfront about how they had found all of this great Aikido-like movement in Kashima Shinryu and for awhile they practiced it without re-branding.

(Eventually the Kashima Shinryu people got irritated with all of this and insisted that Aikido teachers stop using the name of their art without permission.)

I am not sure what influence Kashima Shinryu has had on Saotome Sensei's aikiken but their heavy, straight bokken with the solid wood tsubas were quite popular around Shobukan in the 90s.

Please be aware: The mainline of KSR denies that the derivate taught by Inaba sensei has the right, to be named Kashima shin ryu. Please respect this issue.

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote:

... and there seems to be a strong Kashima Shinryu influence, I guess via Inaba, in mainstream aikiken.

No, there is no influence of the kashima shin ryu derivate as taught by Inaba sensei on aiki ken.
Where or when it ist taught, ken jutsu normally will be distinguished from aiki ken.

Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote:

I know that Yamaguchi-line aikido seems to practice Kashima Shinryu-influenced aikiken but outside of that lineage it really doesn´t seem that common.

Yes, the ken of Inaba Sensei is practiced in the Yamgauchi - line. But it is distinguished from aiki ken which is also practiced.

I would really like it, but I am sure those students like Tissier or Inaba (he isn't aikikai shihan?) or some other can be seen as represantetives of the mainstream within the aikikai /aikiken.

And as I said: At least Tissier teaches ken jutsu (> Inaba) and (!) also aiki ken. These are different kata, different forms, different ways to use the sword.
So the aikido we practice may be influenced by the kashima shin ryu derivate as taught by Inaba sensei to some degree. But the aiki ken is not.

Yamaguchi sensei himself didn't practice KSR at all. Neither as an official student nor learning systematically from Inaba (who was his student). He himself did some Yagyu ryu ken jutsu as a young man and "was able to pick up teh movements and integrate them".
The KSR main line says that Inaba sensei has only the permission to teach some basic kata ( and not KSR) and to do this only at Meiji jingu.

One should distinguish between Kashima Shin ryu and Kashima Shinto ryu and not confuse the two. The former a 500 year old school popularized by Kunii Zen'ya. Inaba Minoru (sword teacher of e.g. Tissier shihan) studied it for about a year, and NEITHER are formally connected with the ryu. Ueshiba Morehei was never a student in this school. The latter ryu has an unbroken succession line going back to Bokuden Tsukuhara (a student of Kashima Shinto Ryu). In the 1930's Ueshiba signed a Keppan, blood oat, together with his son, Kisshomaru, and a deshi Akazawa. An instructor from the school would then teach at the old Kobukan dojo, where Osensei would observe intently. The school's first ken vs. ken kata (Kumitachi no Ichi) bears the same name as the first kumitachi of Saito, and is virtually identical in form. Many of the following kata also bears resemblance to the aikiken kumitachi.

Is Kashima shin-ryu a valid koryu to train in? Absolutely! Like any of the other extant koryu out there.
Does it have any historical connections with aikido and aikiken of Ueshiba Morehei? NOPE!
And it should be said that Kashima Shinto ryu, although connected with aikiken through history, doesn't automatically teach you aikiken. There is a reason the forms differ, and to paraphrase 2nd doshu Kisshomaru :
- The founder would say (about a ken kata) 'This is how that is done WITH aiki!'

With that in mind it's good to remember that Inaba's (and Tissier's) Kashima Shinryu derived sword work has been heavily influenced by his long time practice in aikido and is probably consistent with aikido principles in a way that the actual Kashima Shinryu (or Kashima shinto ryu) is not!

I think a bit of the problem lies in the definition of aikiken. When I read aikiken, I think of the sets of solo and paired excercises put together by Saito sensei.

When I use the term aikiken, I mean "sword kata that are designed to express and teach Aikido principals." I'm an ASU guy so I am more familiar with Saotome Sensei's kumi tachi than Saito Sensei's. I think a lot of folks apply the term aikiken more generally than to just Saito Sensei's stuff.

Quote:

Jakob Blomquist wrote:

One should distinguish between Kashima Shin ryu and Kashima Shinto ryu and not confuse the two. The former a 500 year old school popularized by Kunii Zen'ya. Inaba Minoru (sword teacher of e.g. Tissier shihan) studied it for about a year, and NEITHER are formally connected with the ryu.

Inaba Minoru apparently had quite a close relationship with Kunii, and it seems it was a fairly intense year of training. Just saying.

Quote:

Jakob Blomquist wrote:

The latter ryu has an unbroken succession line going back to Bokuden Tsukuhara (a student of Kashima Shinto Ryu). In the 1930's Ueshiba signed a Keppan, blood oat, together with his son, Kisshomaru, and a deshi Akazawa. An instructor from the school would then teach at the old Kobukan dojo, where Osensei would observe intently. The school's first ken vs. ken kata (Kumitachi no Ichi) bears the same name as the first kumitachi of Saito, and is virtually identical in form. Many of the following kata also bears resemblance to the aikiken kumitachi.

Thanks for the validation of that thought.

Tsukahara Bokuden was a student of Katori Shinto ryu and the founder of Kashima Shinto ryu.

Quote:

Jakob Blomquist wrote:

With that in mind it's good to remember that Inaba's (and Tissier's) Kashima Shinryu derived sword work has been heavily influenced by his long time practice in aikido and is probably consistent with aikido principles in a way that the actual Kashima Shinryu (or Kashima shinto ryu) is not!

Right....so its aikiken now. Informed / flavored by some principals of the Kashima Shinryu.

(Similar to how Kashima Shinryu was informed by principals of Katori Shinto ryu and Shinkage ryu. )

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

Please be aware: The mainline of KSR denies that the derivate taught by Inaba sensei has the right, to be named Kashima shin ryu. Please respect this issue.

No. I am not beholden to the Kashima Shinryu and I will say anything I want to about their art, whether or not it is practiced under their auspices.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

No, there is no influence of the kashima shin ryu derivate as taught by Inaba sensei on aiki ken.
Where or when it ist taught, ken jutsu normally will be distinguished from aiki ken.

Yes, the ken of Inaba Sensei is practiced in the Yamgauchi - line. But it is distinguished from aiki ken which is also practiced.

I think we're having the branding issue again. Here's what I propose:

kenjutsu - kata and waza performed to study how to kill a man with a swordaikiken - kata and waza that are performed to study aikido principals

Therefore, if Inaba Sensei bows to the shomen and claps twice, then any practice of swordwork that he leads the class in until the next time he bows to the shomen and claps twice, is aikiken.

I think if you guys want to reserve the term "aikiken" to mean "Saito Sensei's aikiken," you should at least start capitalizing it.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

I would really like it, but I am sure those students like Tissier or Inaba (he isn't aikikai shihan?) or some other can be seen as represantetives of the mainstream within the aikikai /aikiken.

I think you mean "I am not sure what Tissier and Inaba are doing can be seen as mainstream aikiken" and I don't see why not. its at least as relevant to many of us as what Saito's folks are doing.

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

Yamaguchi sensei himself didn't practice KSR at all. Neither as an official student nor learning systematically from Inaba (who was his student). He himself did some Yagyu ryu ken jutsu as a young man and "was able to pick up teh movements and integrate them".

There's no such thing as "Yagyu ryu kenjutsu," FYI. Do you mean Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, or Yagyu Shingan Ryu?

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

The KSR main line says that Inaba sensei has only the permission to teach some basic kata ( and not KSR) and to do this only at Meiji jingu.

That's really neat when you think about it. Its kind of like how O Sensei broke from Takeda and only took the first set of Daito ryu kata with him.

When I read aikiken, I think of the sets of solo and paired excercises put together by Saito sensei.

Yes. That is how I understand it.

Quote:

Jakob Blomquist wrote:

... NEITHER are formally connected with the ryu. [

Inaba was official student of Kunii Zen'ya. He got a formally permission to teach Kashima shin ryu (and using the name of the ryu) at Meiji jingu from the widdow of Kunii.
This is not in question as far as I know.

Question is, what exactly he was allowed to teach.
Whether he was allowed to teach the art elsewhere.
Whether his students could call what they do and now teach KSR.

At last question is also whether the widdow of Kunii had the rigth to give this permission.

Quote:

Does it have any historical connections with aikido and aikiken of Ueshiba Morehei? NOPE!

Yes. Thats right.

Quote:

With that in mind it's good to remember that Inaba's (and Tissier's) Kashima Shinryu derived sword work has been heavily influenced by his long time practice in aikido and is probably consistent with aikido principles in a way that the actual Kashima Shinryu (or Kashima shinto ryu) is not!

This is how the KSR sees it.

We - on the other side - think that the swordwork derived from the Kashima shin ryu has influenced the aikido we do. And not the other way round.

Well, the Japanese ways of swordwork where always present around O Sensei and aiki budo / aikido: He himself had learned some, there was the Katori shinto ryo (Sugino), Kendo (Nakakura), Kashima shinto ryu, taught in the kobukan. Kashima shin ryu some years later, Yagyu ryu (Yamaguchi) and so on.

Endo sensei as far as I remember once said: When O sensei talked about the relations of aikido to the ken, which form of ken did he mean then? ...
(Isn't the aiki ken we know today (> Saito sensei) a follower of aikido, not a predessecor?)

Right....so its aikiken now. Informed / flavored by some principals of the Kashima Shinryu.

I'm not sure: Do you yourself practice this form swordwork in your line of aikido?
If so, I'm at a loss with your statement.

Because in our practice (following Endo shihan and Tissier shihan) the distinction between the ken jutsu coming from Inaba sensei and aiki ken is always made clear.
And this distinction is explicitly taught. It's just a different way to use the sword and to understand the swordwork. (It's just as different from aikiken as TSKSR is.)

In very very short words aikiken teaches ki musubi. The ken jutsu of Inaba sensei teaches kiri otoshi.

Quote:

No. I am not beholden to the Kashima Shinryu and I will say anything I want to about their art, whether or not it is practiced under their auspices.

Hm, but they claim that it isn't their art and that the name is used without permission.
So are you able to decide, who is right?

Quote:

I think we're having the branding issue again. Here's what I propose:kenjutsu - kata and waza performed to study how to kill a man with a swordaikiken - kata and waza that are performed to study aikido principals

Oh ...
Every kata I know ends with the killing of uchi dachi. Be it aiki ken or ken jutsu.
But the ken jutsu cuts just through the attakc of uchi dachi.
The aiki ken tries to blend with the attack.
The aiki ken I know uses go no sen. Ken jutsu tries to use sen no sen.
And more such difference.

Quote:

Therefore, if Inaba Sensei bows to the shomen and claps twice, then any practice of swordwork that he leads the class in until the next time he bows to the shomen and claps twice, is aikiken.

What about bowing and clapping???
This is part of how to behave in the dojo. And does say nothing about what is practiced???

Quote:

I think you mean "I am not sure what Tissier and Inaba are doing can be seen as mainstream aikiken" and I don't see why not. its at least as relevant to many of us as what Saito's folks are doing.

In Europe only few people follow Tissier. And he is the only shihan over here teaching the derivate of KSR stemming from Inaba sensei.
Where I live we have more then twenty dojo teaching aikido. We are the only ones who do this form of kenjutsu.
Even not everyone following Tissier does it. There are also a lot of people practicing TSKSR or just aikiken.

Quote:

There's no such thing as "Yagyu ryu kenjutsu," FYI. Do you mean Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, or Yagyu Shingan Ryu?

Yes, I 'm aware oft that, but I'm not sure which one he practiced.

Quote:

That's really neat when you think about it. Its kind of like how O Sensei broke from Takeda and only took the first set of Daito ryu kata with him.

Yes.
But iIt's not that the (aikido) kata changed. It's more about the "spirit". It's about "how does aikido feel".

Carsten, Inaba's relation to Kashima Shin ryu is not a simple as you put it.

Karl Friday wrote:

This is not really an issue that reduces to opinion; the facts could not be clearer. There are currently only two places in Europe (one group in Helsinki and one in Frankfurt) where KSR is taught under authorization by the current (or past) KSR headmasters.

The swordwork taught at various Aikido schools in England and France that Ulf refers to derives from Kashima-Shinryu, via Inaba Minoru, the head Aikido instructor at the Meiji Grand Shrine in Tokyo. It is NOT, however, Kashima-Shin ryu--in either a formal or a practical sense.

Inaba has worked a bit of Kashima-Shinryu kenjutsu and some other weapons training into his aikido curriculum at the Meiji Grand Shrine. Neither he nor his teacher, Tanaka Shigeo, however, has any formal connections with the current Kashima-Shinryu soke or shihanke, and neither has any Kashima-Shinryu license or credentials from either Kunii Zen'ya (the previous soke/shihanke) or Seki Humitake (the current shihanke).

The Inaba connection with KSR began when Tanaka wished to learn Kashima Shinryu from Kunii, because he was teaching Aikido at the University of Tokyo, and his students were becoming discouraged by their inability to hold their own in friendly matches with the karate club students, who practiced at the same time. Determining that what his students needed was some weapons training, he went to Kunii to learn kenjutsu. But, as he was already 40 at the time, he found he was not learning well, and so he brought one of his senior students, Inaba, at the time an undergraduate university student, to study with Kunii as well.

Inaba studied KSR for less than a year, and never received any diploma from Kunii Zen'ya, from Seki, or from the Kashima-Shinryu Federation of Martial Sciences. Sometime after Kunii's death in 1966, however, one of Inaba's supervisors asked Kunii Zen'ya's widow for permission for him to teach Kashima-Shinryu to the shrine attendants, arguing that Shinto authorities did not recognize Aikido as proper martial training for shrine attendants, because it lacks any form of *harai* (exorcism). Under the circumstances, it was determined that this request could not be refused.

Nevertheless, because his period of training was far too short to learn and understand the arcana of Kashima-Shinryu, the permission granted Inaba extends only to the teaching of fundamental kenjutsu techniques (but NOT other weapons; he had never actually trained at any KSR weapons other than the sword), at the dojo of the Meiji Grand Shrine. He has no authority to issue Kashima-Shinryu diplomas, nor does he have any right to use the name Kashima-Shinryu or to allow any of his students to use it.

Thus Inaba's formal status within Kashima-Shinryu is that of teaching basic sword techniques within the framework of Aikido instruction at the Meiji Grand Shrine dojo. His students and the students of his students have no formal relationship whatsoever to KSR.

Dr. Karl Friday is professor of history at the University of Georgia and is the author of Hired Swords: The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Early Japan (1992), Legacies of the Sword: The Kashima-Shinryu and Samurai Martial Culture (1997), and Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan (2003). He has spent a number of years living, training, and doing research in Japan; he presently holds the menkyo kaiden license and is a certified shihan in Kashima-Shinryu.

Carsten, Inaba's relation to Kashima Shin ryu is not a simple as you put it.

What part of my simple statements contradicts which part of your detailed version?

I just didn't want to become this special issue the main discussion of this thread. As it allways happen when mentioned ...

Quote:

Karl Friday wrote: This is not really an issue that reduces to opinion: ...

Sure.
But it is - as always when dealing with similar problems of tracing the lines of a koryu - an issue that relies on first knowing and second evaluating the facts.

Quote:

... Ulf refers to ...

Who do you mean?
Do I get something wrong?

Quote:

... derives from Kashima-Shinryu, via Inaba Minoru, the head Aikido instructor at the Meiji Grand Shrine in Tokyo.

That's just what I said.
And knowing all the facts and of all the problems you describe and outline, I hoped the posters to be aware, that "the mainline of KSR denies that the derivate taught by Inaba sensei has the right, to be named Kashima shin ryu." And aksed: "Please respect this issue."

I myself use this formulation "derivate of / ... derives from Kashima-Shinryu, via Inaba Minoru" and a member of the german dojo of KSR found it ok.

Quote:

It is NOT, however, Kashima-Shin ryu--in either a formal or a practical sense.

I learn from the history of other koryu that sometimes things it only seem to be clear ...
Have you ever heard Inaba sensei?

But to get back perhaps.
Important to me in the context of this thread:
This way of using the sword differs from aikiken. Be it the classical form taught by Saito sensei. Be it other forms of aiki ken. And it differs from the TSKSR which is popular here. (But which I don't practice.)

Carten, I am very interested in hearing more about why you won't allow Inaba's Kashima Shinryu to be defined as aikiken.

I am guessing Tissier and Inaba will teach it during Aikido class? Or is it a separate class that is held?

What I am saying is that, if the sword is used to study Aikido, it's aikiken. I trained for an evening with an Aikido group in Tokyo whose main instructor is a high-level exponent of Ono-ha Itto ryu. He would get his deshi up there and do straight Itto ryu kata to demonstrate principals he wanted to work on. He does this with permission of the Soke. In fact, the concept of kiri otoshi that you invoked to distinguish Inaba Sensei's KSR from aikiken, was one of the principals that I worked on that evening! It was related to irimi.

That was aikiken.

Do you feel like you'd lose something if you dropped the distinction between "aikiken" and the Kashima Shinryu that Inaba Sensei taught to Tissier? I could see that, perhaps you revere one set of kata over the other and don't want it brought down to the other's level. I would still call it aikiken, personally.

Oh! I keep forgetting to ask you this, since you sound somewhat familiar with these kata: what's the first kata like? Is it anything like Kashima Shinto Ryu's first kata?

It is also possible that Sugano Sensei's ichi no Ken has nothing to do with the five Kumi tachi since Ichi no Ken just means first sword or sword movement 1, (Ichi=1, no=possessive grammatical particle, ken=sword) and could be an exercise of Sugano sensei's design.