News Roundup: Valor Points, Professions in MoP, Player Feedback

In today's news roundup, Bashiok has been busy on the forums these past few days, covering professions, player feedback, and gearing up with Очки доблести:

In Patch 5.3, item upgrades are returning at a reduced cost (0 Очки доблести instead of 0 Очки доблести) and several Shado-Pan Assault rewards are being moved down from Revered to a lower reputation requirement.

In response to players asking about in-game surveys to provide feedback, Bashiok explained that Blizzard already amasses an exhaustive amount of player data, from talents players pick to what dailies are the most popular. Of course, forum feedback is also useful as it provides insights into player choices.

There were also a few interesting content tidbits: Black Temple was mean to be in the game at Burning Crusade's launch.

While most of Patch 5.3 was planned out a while ago, Battlefield: Barrens was only planned in 5.2.

Players gave lots of feedback on missing Heroic Dungeons at one point, so Heroic Scenarios are a nod to those players.

He also addressed some concerns about professions, alts, and the limitation in having Дух гармонии BoP. He did hint that towards the end of the expansion, Дух гармонии may become BoE, as past crafting items like Сфера хаоса have followed suit.

Finally, if you purchased BlizzCon tickets for friends or family, you have until Tuesday, May 14 to enter or edit attendee information, such as character and real names.

Click the cut to read the blue posts!

BlizzCon

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Player Feedback and Evaluating Data

Bashiok

I've taken some cold medicine, and I anticipate some meandering thoughts ahead, so please forgive me. And go easy.

1. They are accessible to everyone with an active account. Due to a myriad of reasons, not all players can or choose to post on the official forums to voice their opinions (ahem, players with "forum bans" or players who simply do not utilize the forums).

Totally agree with you there, the forums, fansites, front page, and even gaming-websites as a whole is just one slice of the playerbase. Most players don't learn about new patches until they log in when it's released. Which probably seems crazy to everyone here, but that's because you're the type of person that would come to a gaming forum, read the posts, and even less likely actually log in and post(!). Most or all of your friends are probably like you as well, because (unsurprisingly) we tend to make friends with people that are like us. It's that projection bias that makes it difficult to understand that there are people out there that are not like us. We love you for being who you are, passionate people coming and giving us feedback is a big reason for why we exist, but we all have to understand (and account for the fact that) most people just don't do that.

Still, I don't think surveys would be as useful as you may think.

3. Surveys tied to accounts allows developers a way to analyze a lot of player opinion data very quickly (who does and doesn't like x feature, their pve/pvp participation, subscription history, etc). This way, Blizzard can see what type of player likes which particular features, and can adjust accordingly.

We do have a lot of data already. We know what PvE/PvP participation is, we know how often people are using their farms, we know often often people take talents or glyphs, we know how often people are using specific abilities, we know subscription history, we know how often groups are clearing content, we know queue times, etc. We can anticipate what the majority of players are looking to do, and develop that content. Not too long ago Heroic dungeons were a big thing and a lot of people were upset and wanted more in this expansion, which isn't possible to pull off before the end of this expansion, but we did hurry to put together some challenging small-group content with decent rewards to see if we could scratch that itch with Heroic Scenarios. It will be interesting to see... well first what people think of them, and second how close it gets for people to filling that role, but also just how many people actually try them, considering how loud of an issue that was.

Ultimately though there is no right single way to gather feedback. We use a variety of methods and venues to see and experience how people are playing the game, what they think, and what they want. We're always looking for more, and certainly surveys could be a part of that, but we get so much feedback and data already I'm not sure the pros for surveys outweigh the cons.

I was hoping the last couple sentences would kind of cover that. We don't just look at game data. And, in fact, while it's super helpful, a static list of numbers and percentages isn't nearly as useful as hearing how people feel about something. How something feels is far more important that statistical balance.

Плато Солнечного Колодца was absolutely in development from the start. Черный храм was supposed to be in the game when BC launched. To keep from delaying it any further quite a few things didn't make the launch game that were supposed to, and were then added in major content patches. Плато Солнечного Колодца was always on the feature list from before the expansion was released, and was always an intended raid.

We've gotten a lot tighter with our dev cycles, obviously, but that doesn't change that the vast majority of content you see throughout the life of an expansion is in some stage of development before an expansion ships - or in some cases just couldn't make the initial release. This go around I'd say the one big exception is the Battlefield Barrens event coming in 5.3, which wasn't something that was concepted until around 5.2 when we thought we really needed a bigger story lead up and tie-in to 5.4 as we didn't have one planned.

Professions in MoP

Bashiok

We like that people enjoy having alts. It's been a personal hobby of mine to continually level characters, and it's of course something a lot of people do. However, in some ways it works against some game systems that are intended to be a part of the MMO experience. Professions are one such system.

The intent with professions is that you can only have two, and for all the other professions you don't have you have to work with others within the game to get what you need. Say you're a blacksmith, and you can make an item another player or even that player's profession needs, and that interplay creates interpersonal interactions and even those small interactions feed into the larger social experience. Over the years a number of things have changed and lessened those interactions based around professions, but probably none more impactful than alts. With good intentions to help people catch up to the end-game, it of course allows for people to have more alts with more professions, which in turn reduces reliance on others and shrinks the reasons you have to interact with others.

Most people don't keep tons of alts geared up for end-game, but quite a few do have alts that are there to help 'feed' their one or two main characters. Which is where the binding comes in. You're playing on one character, getting motes/spirits, and wanting to transfer those to alts to make stuff, which then feeds back to your main in either the items made, or the gold from selling them. That's totally understandable, but really fundamentally goes against the intent of profession limits. It can also lessen the personal value of playing and connecting with a character. When you have everything, your personal connection to any one of those things is diluted, and you naturally care a little less about each.

I understand that may be a hard sell because it's a limitation and not letting people do whatever they want, but it's at least logical. I think it is, anyway. :) Maybe one solution is we could say you can only have two professions per Battle.net account! And really strong arm people into it, but of course that'd be a pretty negative change in taking so much away. Instead saying here's an item that we really want you to earn and use on the character you're playing and obtained it with to reinforce the value in playing that character (and not just shipping items off to crafting alts). People still have crafting alts, of course, and some choose to play them a little just to seek out the motes/spirits, and that's ok. What we don't want is to encourage the notion that you can just play one character and keep a cadre of alts that ensure you have everything you'll ever need. Working with others to achieve great things is by and large the overarching point of these kinds of games.

All that said we have tended to remove the soulbinding of these types of crafting materials as the expansion that introduced them draws to an end.

Valor Points and Gearing Up

Bashiok

I'm not sure. Do you feel like that was the best way to get Valor? It may be the slowest. Good for filling small gaps though. Get a few friends together, chain-run Challenge Modes = VP win.

(+Heroic Scenarios will also be a good source in 5.3, only need 2 friends, and no spec requirements)

I'll pass on the Zerg mode aka Challenge mode I don't want to play beat the clock for no reason.

... it's not for no reason, you get rewards based on your time.

Also, no one has ever called it Zerg mode before. And never should again.

Well it's just not really the right way to use the word, but anyway, even if you get Bronze (which is all you need to shoot for) that's 55 Очки доблести, which, for the time investment, is probably the fastest way to get Очки доблести. This thread is about the OP not wanting to do dailies to get Очки доблести, not your personal take on if you like Challenge Modes or not. But now that we're on the subject, cosmetic rewards are actually fairly highly sought after, and considering from tier to tier people may or more not like how their set looks, allowing people to get fairly rare pieces to transmog into has been a pretty popular and appreciated reward. If you don't like them that's cool, there's a lot of content and not everyone is going to like all of it.

You shouldn't be grinding any reps to get Очки доблести gear. Those items aren't really worth going after any more. There's the Натиск Шадо-Пан, but you get rep by downing each Престол Гроз boss each week, and there's no way to 'grind' that.

If you're working on Армия Кирин-Тора or Войска Похитителей Солнца, hitting Honored is pretty quick, buy the belt for 300g and then only continue with it if you want to hit Exalted or want some of those other rewards. If you're just looking to gear up I'd probably stop there.

Yes by all means don't grind rep to get gear, BUT do the rep with Kirin tor to get gear??? Do you hear yourself?? Once again Blizz don't get it, the double gate for valor gear SUCKS! It does not matter if it takes a week, 3 weeks or 3 months to get to valor gear, it is the grind that is bad. I ran dungeons and scenarios and LFR to get valor points, now I gotta grind rep to get the gear.

No you don't. If you want to get that belt it's a pretty small time investment to hit Honored, but it's not necessary to hit ilvls to get into ToT LFR by any stretch.

We've spoken to that a few times, but essentially it was just an oversight in making Очки доблести too much of the gearing process at the start, and there's really no point now in trying to force JP into the mix. The current progression works well, it's quick, it helps people get alts into the latest content, and we're not really looking to force a change just so Очки справедливости can feel better about themselves. (poor Очки доблести, so lonely)

Очки доблести rewards are balanced against the difficulty of the content, and the time and organization it requires. If everything gave the same amount of valor it wouldn't be a choice, there would be 1 fastest and easiest way to get Очки доблести because it would literally be the fastest and easiest way.

Натиск Шадо-Пан rep is gained by killing bosses, not doing dailies. But whatever, item upgrades are coming back in 5.3 (and they're cheaper) so that'll be a nice way to dump some Очки доблести.

You can't discount the entire idea of running 5.0 LFR to gear up because drops are random. Sure you could still get some bad rolls and it may take you a bit longer, but there are many who (with a bunch of Elder Charms, aka bonus rolls) are able to completely gear up for ToT within two weeks.

If you want an absolutely reliable way to see an item, do something, and get that item no questions asked, you can do dailies to gain rep and get them for VP, but it's not going to be the quickest way.

This isn't a question of what you can and can't do, the only question is how you want to do it. The Catching Up to 5.3 blog assumes you want to gear up as quickly as possible.

Valor gear should not be gated by rep.

And what I want to do in many cases is gain rep... but you've left me with no options other than dailies to get rep reliably in virtually every case.Yeah I think that's something we learned from and agree with to a point. The Натиск Шадо-Пан is technically a rep, but the limit is determined by boss kills. VP items are intended to fill gaps when your boss kills don't give you the items you need. Instead of implementing yet another currency and 'boss kill tracking system' to allow you to fill in the gaps, your access to items is determined purely by killing bosses. Plus tying it to a faction helps make it feel like it's a part of the world and not just a static tracking system.

Most of the good SPA rep rewards are frontloaded at Neutral to Honored at least. You hit Friendly week 1, and Honored shortly after that. Getting to Exalted is almost purely vanity, since it's just a tabard and some shoulders that don't even have a socket. You also don't have to do dailies to unlock those 522s, just a week or two of LFR.

We tend to not want everything to be super formulaic. It gets tiresome when every tier of every expansion the same items are available in the same ways. Mix it up, etc. etc.

Комментарии

Комментарий от IcyFrozen

on 2013-05-13T12:16:09-05:00

So we want Heroic Dungeons and they give use Heroic Scenarios.. maybe Blizz missed the point that we dont want Scenarios. Scenarios are a waste of time as they dont generate the resources (in the form of Valor or Loot) in the way that a Heroic Dungeon does. So basically you lose another million subscribers and your STILL telling us what we want and not giving us what we ask for..

Комментарий от stym

on 2013-05-13T12:28:02-05:00

So we want Heroic Dungeons and they give use Heroic Scenarios.. maybe Blizz missed the point that we dont want Scenarios.

you mean you don't want scenarios.Blizzard is accumulating statistics on what the players do, and your hunch might be false. Maybe players do like scenarios.Also, they are typically way shorter than dungeons and often reward you with an ilvl 450 or 463 item, plus 50 VP for the first run. That is not a waste of time. I managed to gear up an alt for LFR mostly by doing scenarios.Other advantages: You can queue for those at times when the queue for a Heroic Dungeon will last for an hour (yes, even if you play tank or healer.)Other other advantage: the first heroic scenario will reward you with 120 VP. You can't beat that with a heroic dungeon or LFR segment, especially if you take the time spent into consideration. Oh, and an LFR grade epic too!

There could be multiple reasons why WoW is bleeding subscribers, but i wouldn't bet on the scenarios being the cause (veteran player fatigue, dailies and CRZ anyone?)

Комментарий от jaq1010

on 2013-05-13T12:31:04-05:00

Normally I sympathetically defend Blizzard to the point that I get called a fan boy a lot, but reading this I just have to say a couple of things:

They went into MoP knowing it was going to climax with overthrowing Garrosh...and they realized around 5.2 that they didn't have a lead in concepted? Good lord, what was 5.3 going to be, then?

Also, I love the idea that challenge modes are the most efficient way to collect VP. Sure, if you put together a group, go out to the dungeon, and actually complete it. But I can collect 80 VP for a dungeon and 50 VP for a scenario in that time, and then half that in the same time. We get it, Blizzard, you liked your challenge modes (and that's probably the REAL reason why there's no more five mans: tuning them for Challenge Mode would be a headache) but c'mon, stop trying to sell them as efficient VP generators.

Комментарий от pilek01

on 2013-05-13T12:55:08-05:00

So we want Heroic Dungeons and they give use Heroic Scenarios.. maybe Blizz missed the point that we dont want Scenarios. Scenarios are a waste of time as they dont generate the resources (in the form of Valor or Loot) in the way that a Heroic Dungeon does. So basically you lose another million subscribers and your STILL telling us what we want and not giving us what we ask for..

You only want new 5 mans to get free epics. But dont if blizzard ever made new 5 mans in MoP they would still drop only 463 ilvl and you would come back to the forums and cry even more. 5 mans are there only to get gear for MV LFR and for VP. Not to get you geared in 1 day so you can skip all the other content from the expansion.

Комментарий от lankybrit

on 2013-05-13T13:10:18-05:00

We want Heroic Dungeons because:

1. They should provide better gear later in the expansion

2. You can queue for them in LFD

3. You are playing your role (DPS, Tank, Healer)

Heroic Scenarios have none of these.

Cheers.

Комментарий от riotxjess

on 2013-05-13T13:19:12-05:00

The problem I have with challenge modes is that as a resto druid I feel as if I'm useless. I've talked to other resto druids about this as well and they feel the same way so I know I'm not in the minority about this. And while scenarios are nice, once again hello resto druid. I guess technically I could go in with my 2nd spec but that defeats the purpose of playing a class and spec that I actually like.

Комментарий от Tush

on 2013-05-13T13:19:57-05:00

We want Heroic Dungeons because:

1. They should provide better gear later in the expansion

2. You can queue for them in LFD

3. You are playing your role (DPS, Tank, Healer)

Heroic Scenarios have none of these.

Cheers.

4. Cooler bosses (really have you seen scenarion bosses?)

Комментарий от popinfresh96

on 2013-05-13T13:34:14-05:00

i think a small portion of your concerns with professions might be alleviated with better profession rewards that you have to be of that profession to get, my best example for tailoring if tailors could make a bag lets say 4-6 slots larger then the biggest bag in the game but only tailors can use it and its for all items.

a second idea i have is crafting items that require mats from another profession you make a "joint crafting" projects so lets say a engineer is making project X and needs mat A from a blacksmith the engineer starts crafting and the blacksmith clicks in too. with that you could either have they both get one of whats being made or only the engineer.

Комментарий от stym

on 2013-05-13T13:53:39-05:00

We want Heroic Dungeons because:1. They should provide better gear later in the expansion2. You can queue for them in LFD3. You are playing your role (DPS, Tank, Healer)Heroic Scenarios have none of these.Cheers.

I think Blizzard's rationale in answer to these points is that LFR is supposed to take over after you geared up in heroic dungeons.They provide better gear, you can queue for them and you are playing your role. The problem is, queue times for LFR can be pretty bad and they take typically twice as long as a heroic dungeon to complete... even without a wipe.My experience right now is that I need 1 hour for the Last Stand of the Zandalari (including queue time), 1 hour to an hour and a half for The Forgotten Depths and Halls of Flesh-Shaping and a solid two hours total for The Pinnacle of Storms.

In 4.3, you queued for 5 minutes for a Heroic Hour of Twilight dungeon and got a decent shot at an ilvl 378 epic in 15 to 20 minutes flat. I think that's where the frustration is coming from.Don't count on Blizzard to change that too soon, they REALLY want people to queue for LFR, because if people dropped out of LFR, it would soon become impossible to queue for one.

Комментарий от Mikerhinos

on 2013-05-13T13:57:32-05:00

I want heroic challenge mode scenarios, to get enough VP to equip my characters in shiny raid stuff in 2 days, so i can show it to everyone in front of the Stormwind AH.I want a big truck mount too, and the possibility to add more boobs to my female alts.There's not enough bacon stuff to eat, come on, nothing is better than bacon, so give me all the bacon and eggs you have.

Комментарий от BulletproofMoon

on 2013-05-13T13:59:31-05:00

Not too sure where Blizz gets their data from but everytime I queue up for a scenario I usually either end up with folks who are either queuing just to see what a scenario is or is doing their best to hit the weekly valor cap...no one really seems to be doing them purely out of interest of the scenarios themselves.

I can't really agree with the option of heroic scenarios either, it seems to kind of break their original plan for folks who hit 90 to have to progress through the other tiers and raids before they reach the final tier. The heroic scenarios are playing the same role as the catch-up heroics of previous expans, they're just under the ruse of a different name but they lack the depth of a dungeon due to the group makeup and the change of scenery new dungeons offer. I do hope this changes in the next expansion.

As for cooler bosses, that's a very opinionated statement, I can rightly argue that Heroics have unique and cool boss fights as well. Commander Vo'jak and his Tower Defense style fight, and Wing Leader Ner'onok and flying to the other side to blow you off are fights I often look forward to name a couple.

Комментарий от apathyosis

on 2013-05-13T14:04:08-05:00

Every time I queue for a scenario it feels like I'm grouped with two people who have never played WoW before. It's grueling. Terrible. Every now and then I suck it up when I don't have enough time for a dungeon, but then I invariably get the Brewmoon Festival. Then I drop group, log out, and presented WoW doesn't exist until the next day. I don't see that changing with a heroic option.

Комментарий от Punisher069

on 2013-05-13T14:22:20-05:00

If they had better gear they would trivialize older LFRs and that is what they were trying to avoid. Especially since many people complained in cata and wrath about how the newer dungeons made older content useless.

Комментарий от Excelion

on 2013-05-13T14:24:02-05:00

Ryg just posted that the patch isn't the 14th, looks to be the 21st.

Комментарий от dreamwvr

on 2013-05-13T14:50:02-05:00

I love this game and I play well. I work and I practice and I learn all the classes, not just one. I and a great many of the best players in this game are solo players. I think you will find that the majority of your clientele would rather be solo players than deal with the nonsense you find in most pug groups and even guild groups. The solo scenarios on isle of thunder have been wonderful and thank you so much for them. I want the best gear too, but I want solo options to get there. Please give some of the best players of the game a little love. Thank you. Have a great day!

Комментарий от Rainemard

At the start of the expansion, Justice is the starter currency, helping players get into Heroic dungeons (of which there are plenty). Justice is earned from normal dungeons, scenarios, and daily quests. Valor is earned from Heroic dungeons/scenarios and raid(s), and is used to buy raid-equivalent gear from an npc NOT tied to rep.

For every non-raid patch, at least one new Heroic dungeon should be released as well as a couple scenarios (because they're so much easier to create, recourse-wise). Item upgrade NPCs become available, and any new daily quests will reward Valor - as well as the first random normal dungeon/scenario per day (though I really prefer the 7-per-week model of Cata...). This is to help players gear faster in preparation of the next raid patch.

For every raid patch, Valor is reset. No exceptions. Players should not feel the need to horde (lol) their Valor. Gear that was previously purchased with Valor will be available for Justice. Old Valor dailies will award Justice, while any new dailies will award Valor.

This model clearly gives use for Justice as well as Valor in every patch. Raid patches focus progression on the higher-end content (raids & heroics) which will likely pose a problem to extremely - I hate using this word - casual players who don't even do Heroic dungeons. However, in non-raid patches, Valor is earned much more easily, making catch up a non-issue.

I guarantee this model doesn't make everyone happy. But it does seem the most fair to me, and really, what's cheesing me off so much about WoW lately is the lack of consistency. Valor gets reset every raid patch - but then it doesn't. Old gear is bought with Justice - except now Valor (so what exactly do we use Justice for... ?). Valor & Justice gear haven't been tied to reputations since, ever... so naturally it's a good idea to start? The list goes on, even without talking about the mess of changes they've been doing with PvP...

Комментарий от Voranil

on 2013-05-13T17:24:52-05:00

of course in-game surveys would not be effective, but surveys overall would be. they should be emailed to players instead. problem is that the devs are just too set in their ways to change. the wow forums are probably worst place to garner information considering the vast majority of the playerbase probably doesn't even post there in the first place. and given how many subs left in the past 3 months alone, this method is shown to be even more ineffective.

before creative assembly made empire: total war, they sent out a survey where you had a list of options and you could click which genre you would like. I remember taking that survey and I guess many people clicked on a Napoleonic period total war game. yes, not everyone will take the survey, but it is better than gauging opinion based on the even less people who post on wow forums, which tend to contain too many people who try to suck up to blizzard.

as bashiok said they collect all the data on progression and so forth, but it still does not give any indication of what the playerbase wants. they think they know what we want but as current events show, they fall well short of that. no wonder it is said that wow is being managed by blizz's B team. the best devs must have gone to work on Titan.

Комментарий от NoirStar

on 2013-05-13T17:33:56-05:00

I have to agree. I personally do not enjoy scenarios. at all. I'm just one person though. There's no way to really have your specific class shine, and I miss the group dynamic. Every time I do a scenario, it's people just trying to rush as fast as they can for vp cap. no one seems to enjoy it, and the challenge feels missing. At least in dungeons if your group was sub-par, there was an element of challenge in trying to over come that liability anyways. (that is when people didn't rage quit after one miss step) If their goal is really to force more people into LFR, then make more of an incentive to go into them. You can only loot once a week, and once your elder charms or runes are used up, then there's really no point in doing them. Also, anyone else incredibly BORED with the current dungeons? doing the same 4 over and over again before 90 completely drives me insane! And it doesn't get much better after 90. I can't speak for everyone, but I do feel Blizz is failing the community by not introducing more dungeons. Period. I'll give heroic scenarios a shot, but given my hatred of normal scenarios, I don't have high hopes. But I'm sure their statistics will tell them people love heroic scenarios, when really it's just more people trying to vp cap. Of course everything I've said will most likely be picked apart, lol, that's the way of forums, but I just wanted to express my two cents. Enjoy playing everyone! :)

Комментарий от snipervictim

on 2013-05-13T17:34:48-05:00

I don't understand either it seems to me that the makers don't play the game or at least not on servers that don't have a ton of people on them this game is dying and to be honest it should at this point it seems there is only one force driving Blizz and that is stock price.

I see things keeping on the same path as a waste of my time and money to be honest to the makers I will give examples I am sure you already know and care little about .

1.Last night I walked into the AH and there was no-one there but the npcs and 6 people in SW this is on Trollbane a server you call Med full .

2.I never get to kill a world boss because there are not enough people on my server to kill him more then say once a week and most of the time I am not on at that time .

3.I have logged on 4 times in the last week to queue times said time in queue no time to group I waited once over a hour and when it did put me in I had to start at then END of the raid. Who wants to re-queue after that well I did the next day and it took way over a hour and to sit in front of a screen for that long not even able to go to the restroom for to long is a JOB not a game .

4.I get into a raid and guess what someone paid a tank of a healer to queue and as soon as they are in they drop and then I have to wait no kidding 45 mins for a new tank this is nutz because if I leave I have to take the deserter tag and wait 30min to start waiting a hour to get a raid that might not work out .

5.I must lfr otherwise no gear= no progression in game you made it about the lfr so there really is no other way to get rep.

6.Everything else is empty busy work even if I ran around the whole game and killed all the rares you have I cant get epic gear so they really server no real purpose do they they are just there to keep me busy so lack of story or reason to want to waste my time killing a rare that doesn't help me progress.

7. I will not pay you for failure you made it so my server is empty and now I either have to live with it or leave......

Комментарий от Voranil

on 2013-05-13T20:04:53-05:00

I have done 5.3 on ptr and I can say that it wont keep you occupied for more than a week, unless you are that stage in the legendary quest already. unlikely though, given most people still haven't done the forge quest yet, let alone the second grind quest.