One of the reason I don't play the games posted on these forums is that I just feel like it's such a daunting task to run some of those Java games. Most often they are still in development, they crash, they are incomplete, no gameplay (under construction), or the links don't work, and sometimes I even have to download a zip file. Most often these games take 5-10 minutes to download, and I only find out afterward that it was a waste of time.

IMO the "Games Showcase" forum seems to be a "help me debug this game" forum, although it shouldn't.

I've been lurking on this forum for a couple years. I verymuch like java gaming as a hobby (few years), been a professionalsoftware engineer for... hmm... 20 years? And also have some experienceteaching college students how to code in labs back some time ago.

I am also kind of a noob. So I hope I can help diffuse someof the issues here, as I've certainly spent a lot of time inthe past thinking about this even before this thread. (BecauseI've been the noob thinking "gee, why isn't anyone replyingto me in a helpful manner.")

The complaint about the community not providing feedback topeople posting is understandable. Yet I agree with everythingChrisM says about the community not being required to answer.

I believe the root of the problem is that not all beginners knowfunctionally what to expect or ask. (Asking to review a gameis obviously ideal from the beginners point of view, but it doesn'twork from the other side all the time.)

There's reasons why people don't run other people's games, orspend a lot of time trying to debug them. First, I don't runrandom programs on my computer. Second, I have a day job, afamily, and probably 30 minutes a day to work on my hobby, soI have greatly limited time just to get anything done for myself.Third, java gaming is a wide subject area, and not everyone knowsthe answers to all the variety of questions.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a different way to address the originalreason why people are ending up with these kinds of questions.

Tutorials, papers, notes, and other forms of ducumentation canbe gathered that will save other people literally weeks of time,and also provide a feeling of community as they are updated.

For example, I used to keep a list of gotcha's I ran into whiletrying to program in jogl. They are probably dated by now.

Another useful example for the community is tutorials. Write goodbeginners and intermediate tutorials and you can not only helppeople coming into the community, but also attract university classesand even High School classes into using them.

As for the community, I think a lot of arguing can be lessenedif everyone realizes this is exactly a community, and prettymuch the primary goal is contacts and relationships, not product.

Contacts and communication are a great resource, but not a replacementfor each person doing their own grunt work, spending days confused,working throught the code.

So arguing is simply counter to those contacts, and participatingin arguing doesn't help, and is simply cutting into your time gettingyour own thing done.

You don't walk into your local pub and tell Joe he needs tohelp you fix your car. You might tell Joe about your car, andif he offers you some advice or help, then great. If not, certainlyyou understand Joe has a life and other things going on. But youdon't stop being friends with Joe either, because he provides supportif for nothing else, just listening.

Since I'm a noob, I volunteer to help with any noob effort todocument beginners java game programming. (As much as I can,for what I know anyhow. I'm trying to learn jMonkeyEngine atthis point...)

I also often go to SF and Austin GDC, and would be happy tomeet folks, just to talk about gaming techniques. I've learnedmore just wandering around GDC talking to people. People getstuck on technologies, it's nice to talk about it.

I've been lurking on this forum for a couple years. I verymuch like java gaming as a hobby (few years), been a professionalsoftware engineer for... hmm... 20 years? And also have some experienceteaching college students how to code in labs back some time ago.

I am also kind of a noob. So I hope I can help diffuse someof the issues here, as I've certainly spent a lot of time inthe past thinking about this even before this thread. (BecauseI've been the noob thinking "gee, why isn't anyone replyingto me in a helpful manner.")

The complaint about the community not providing feedback topeople posting is understandable. Yet I agree with everythingChrisM says about the community not being required to answer.

I believe the root of the problem is that not all beginners knowfunctionally what to expect or ask. (Asking to review a gameis obviously ideal from the beginners point of view, but it doesn'twork from the other side all the time.)

There's reasons why people don't run other people's games, orspend a lot of time trying to debug them. First, I don't runrandom programs on my computer. Second, I have a day job, afamily, and probably 30 minutes a day to work on my hobby, soI have greatly limited time just to get anything done for myself.Third, java gaming is a wide subject area, and not everyone knowsthe answers to all the variety of questions.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a different way to address the originalreason why people are ending up with these kinds of questions.

Tutorials, papers, notes, and other forms of ducumentation canbe gathered that will save other people literally weeks of time,and also provide a feeling of community as they are updated.

For example, I used to keep a list of gotcha's I ran into whiletrying to program in jogl. They are probably dated by now.

Another useful example for the community is tutorials. Write goodbeginners and intermediate tutorials and you can not only helppeople coming into the community, but also attract university classesand even High School classes into using them.

As for the community, I think a lot of arguing can be lessenedif everyone realizes this is exactly a community, and prettymuch the primary goal is contacts and relationships, not product.

Contacts and communication are a great resource, but not a replacementfor each person doing their own grunt work, spending days confused,working throught the code.

So arguing is simply counter to those contacts, and participatingin arguing doesn't help, and is simply cutting into your time gettingyour own thing done.

You don't walk into your local pub and tell Joe he needs tohelp you fix your car. You might tell Joe about your car, andif he offers you some advice or help, then great. If not, certainlyyou understand Joe has a life and other things going on. But youdon't stop being friends with Joe either, because he provides supportif for nothing else, just listening.

Since I'm a noob, I volunteer to help with any noob effort todocument beginners java game programming. (As much as I can,for what I know anyhow. I'm trying to learn jMonkeyEngine atthis point...)

I also often go to SF and Austin GDC, and would be happy tomeet folks, just to talk about gaming techniques. I've learnedmore just wandering around GDC talking to people. People getstuck on technologies, it's nice to talk about it.

Thanks for the great community,

devsajr-------

well said. Thats actually not a bad idea on making like a wiki on java game development, that could keep the n88b questions down...we could all help contribute, im sure someone has have to of made a wiki add on for smf forums.

ChrisM: I was mildly disappointed in the luke-warm apologetic tone of your first few posts. It appears you've since had the time to have a think and realise that the original complaint is largely poppycock. Huzzah!JGO is one of the best technical -certainly the best for java- resources around, and you should be proud of it.

As to the wiki, it seems attractive: there's a few regular topics (game loops, what is and isn't accelerated in Java2D, the differences between JOGL, LWJGL, JME, etc, etc) that would be better answered in one article than scattered across multiple posts as the information currently is. However, it's been tried before - I'm sure there used to be a link to it at the top of every page, in an uncomfortably-wide blue image. Do we know why it didn't gain traction? Not prominent enough? Too much friction to editing (separate login from the forum)?

Also, devsajr: I think that may be the most cogent first post ever. Welcome!

I found this mod for smf, if its something that we are interested in and vote on it, maybe i could make a simple smf and try the mod out. But then again are we going to use the wiki and make updates to it?

Not to belabor this, but, yes you did. Run on all major desktop platforms or not be accepted as a "complete" game until this requirement was met. People disagreed with this, you would not bend, and so they left and started a new site.

Having said that, we are glad that you are a member here gouesse

I still disagree with you as nobody forced them to use the previous JGT and when you said "they left and started a new site", I would have said "they left and only a few of them started a new site", it is closer to the reality.

Having said that, I am glad to be here and it is a pleasure to see quite "new" members arriving, I think about h3ckboy.

Aye, glad indeed, the forum wouldn't the same without gouessej, however he does rather bring home very starkly some of what I feel is missing from JGO, which is an understanding of the entirety of games development, which is mostly and possibly deliberately ignored.

We're a great community here but really if people are going to ask for feedback it's got to be honest. If we pretend that something's good just so as to not hurt someone's feeling then we are being dishonest and nobody gets any wiser or better.

In fact I just took a look at TUER again. It's been in development for two years now. And it's still the most unutterably, completely, fantastically rubbish pile of shit I have ever seen, and you have that statement on record now finally so you've got someone to whinge about if you like. Why has no-one else told you this, instead of letting you talk almost to yourself for 15 pages and 2 years? If TUER were to be used as any kind of advert for Java in games development we'd just be laughed out of the building and go back to using C++, Flash, or C#. It is an embarrassment.

Now don't get me wrong here - this is not a personal attack on Julien, depending on how he takes that criticism of course. On certain other forums I inhabit, presenting something as chronically bad as TUER to them you would barely even elicit a word of feedback from anyone, so unbelievably bad is the entire experience, and even the extremely professional and polite people I do know there who occasionally give feedback on products of this standard would be hard pressed not to just ask you to go away for wasting their time. But I went through the mill with those very same people, pages and pages of scathing criticism, and I did fight back against some of it (if you listen to everyone then you end up with a mess). But wow! What an amazing experience it was getting all that criticism and learning to deal with it, learning to filter it, and most specifically realising, in the most brutal, public fashion possible on the internet, just how little Java and programming has actually got to do with "games development".

You've just got to open your eyes and really think: why has Cas just said that? Does it make him look like an asshole? Or is he being honest? Why is he being honest? Is he trying to hurt me and my feelings or is he trying to help? Is he trying to help by pointing something out? What's he pointing out? Why does he think my game is so utterly shit when I've put two years' work into it? Perhaps I could compare it, methodically, completely to any number of other titles and see where the differences lie?

Before you go thinking I'm being mean to gouessej alone, mostly everyone else here is responsible too, in various ways. Firstly, none of you has really said what you really think for fear of upsetting someone. Secondly, you might be one of the people making games here, but you're almost certainly as guilty of Julien of ignoring the other 90% of gamedev and never getting any further because you're not turning a critical eye on yourself and what you're doing.

What the forum needs is some serious emphasis on that missing 90%. We need people who can actually draw graphics to come here. We need people who can make sound effects. We need programmers who aren't afraid to realise that programming and game design are entirely different things and it is just possible we might not be very good at one of them. Interesting that the various Flash sites attract an awful lot of artists and game designers who are crappy programmers: this is because Flash is not a great programming tool but rather good at the other 90% which we're missing here. Can we not somehow start to get artists more involved in this community?

Now I'm not beyond criticism: those who know what I've been up to for the last, erm, 8 years or so will know that my first foray into Java games development was an abysmal failure. So was my second in fact. And I was teamed up with a shit-hot artist. But finally the lessons started sinking in and our games are a little teeny bit better and they actually are good enough to sell to people and people actually buy them. Whether they're for sale or not is really just icing on the cake but it's the fact that we've tried constantly to get beyond that 10% that is just programming Java and into the 90% which is about graphics, sounds, music, polish, presentation, deployment, gameplay -- because that's where all the action is.

If we don't figure out something pretty radical then Java gaming is still where it was at, roughly, in 1998.

Cas

ps. apologies for long rant and giving gouessej a new hole from which to splutter apoplectically at me

Im all for constructive criticism. Aspecially with my games, Id love people rip it raw during the development stage.

But Iv noticed on other public development sites, you get a bunch of noobs pretending to be experienced at game dev. They just put down other new programmers with honest questions. I think there is people for different jobs, and princec I think you do have the expierence and proof to show that you are qualified to judge, but again i say by setting a negative tone across the board, you will get a forum full of interenet tools, who just need to put others down to make themselves feel good.

Would be awsome to get some artists and such. like a sister site for artistic developmenmt (i mentioned that idea before). There are definately alot of aspiring game artists. It would require a very effective method to immigrate the two sides of gaming.

Not negative - critical! Criticism is only negative when it's taken badly by the recipient. We've got to just grow up here and move beyond being a bunch of autistic geeks and get better at understanding criticism, and get better at being more self-critical.

oh - and me, qualified to judge? LOL! In the industry at large I'm reknowned as a complete failure.

dude, i really dont want to come across as stroking your ego. cuz i already said those words about you having experience. But you make effective games, and they have made sales. Therefore there is alot to be learned from you.

I still hold to my position that by letting people go free for all, you gonna get a ALOT of noobs being NEGATIVE, not just critical and the forum will become another rotten game dev site on the net.

People dont really need social advise, not for making effective games anyway. Just because people dont gracefully except criticism, doesnt mean they havnt taken it in. Usually when they fire up, its because a nerve has been touched.

Ok, first off, i'm really sorry i haven't read all the interesting posts in this thread. I wanted to, but didn't find time to do it.

Now, one thing that strikes me when looking at "Games Showcase": There are no threads with recommendations and rules for posting games.I see a lot of games posted there with no futher information than: "Here, i made a game, please try it: [link]"I need screenshots, system specs a teaser text and such before i consider trying out the game. If i don't try out a game, i cannot provide feedback.I should ofcourse leave a comment about this, but it feels rather offtopic, so i don't.More "sticky threads" with general information would be a good thing in my opinion.

Most of the time i've been happy about the amount of feedback i get here, but i can see why other people are disappointed.One thing that seems to motivate people to comment on boards like this is a points system, where you can award points to people for giving helpfull advice, answers and feedback. It may seem like a silly feature, but it usually has a huge impact, much like the post count does.

Anyways, this thread pretty much proves that JavaGaming.org isn't dead, and people want to improve it. Despite it looking like a very negative thread at first. :-)

On some level it doesn't really matter what other ppl think. At some point it becomes a waste of (good)energy to dwell on it. - it's even worse if it focuses on little details of who said what and where.

I remember everyone and his mom complaining about how the next version of Tactical-ops was going to suck and every time after a month everyone was playing it and the number of people grew.

But even that doesn't matter on some level.. if you take satisfaction from creating your own game then nothing else matters.

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rules for posting games.

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One thing that seems to motivate people to comment on boards like this is a points system, where you can award points to people for giving helpfull advice, answers and feedback. It may seem like a silly feature, but it usually has a huge impact, much like the post count does.

If anything I like JGO for it not being anal about little things, Sometimes very early raw material is more pleasant to see as a developer

.....Anyway, DzzD, the problem is that my game was made sure to not crash the browser, looked good, had a screenshot, and ran normally 90% of the time. Still people didn't comment on it except rarely. People are commenting on it more now, and I'm going to implement what they suggested. I'm just working on a Object Editor for my Map Editor right now, so I can't respond right away. I know that makes me a little hypocrite, and I am very sorry and hope that these fine people won't lose interest by the time I update.....

Aye, glad indeed, the forum wouldn't the same without gouessej, however he does rather bring home very starkly some of what I feel is missing from JGO, which is an understanding of the entirety of games development, which is mostly and possibly deliberately ignored.

We're a great community here but really if people are going to ask for feedback it's got to be honest. If we pretend that something's good just so as to not hurt someone's feeling then we are being dishonest and nobody gets any wiser or better.

In fact I just took a look at TUER again. It's been in development for two years now. And it's still the most unutterably, completely, fantastically rubbish pile of shit I have ever seen, and you have that statement on record now finally so you've got someone to whinge about if you like. Why has no-one else told you this, instead of letting you talk almost to yourself for 15 pages and 2 years? If TUER were to be used as any kind of advert for Java in games development we'd just be laughed out of the building and go back to using C++, Flash, or C#. It is an embarrassment.

Some people asked me some months ago not to deploy any new build too quickly without testing it a bit more seriously than I did. Therefore, the latest deployed version of TUER does not reflect the small changes made from January until now (lots of bug fixes, a more realistic way of drawing the weapon, ..., some regressions unfortunately ). As I started the port of my "game" to JME 2.0 some months ago too, no new feature has been added since this time. You could at least mind your language, you could be polite, it is the only thing that I consider as a problem. In France, TUER has given the envy of creating their own FPS in Java to some programmers (watch JWolfenstein 3D for example) even though it is only a modest FPS with quite ugly graphics. A young guy (only 15 years old) drew a new rocket launcher ( a really pretty one) for my game but I don't have enough time to put it into my FPS.

Before you go thinking I'm being mean to gouessej alone, mostly everyone else here is responsible too, in various ways. Firstly, none of you has really said what you really think for fear of upsetting someone. Secondly, you might be one of the people making games here, but you're almost certainly as guilty of Julien of ignoring the other 90% of gamedev and never getting any further because you're not turning a critical eye on yourself and what you're doing.

What the forum needs is some serious emphasis on that missing 90%. We need people who can actually draw graphics to come here. We need people who can make sound effects. We need programmers who aren't afraid to realise that programming and game design are entirely different things and it is just possible we might not be very good at one of them. Interesting that the various Flash sites attract an awful lot of artists and game designers who are crappy programmers: this is because Flash is not a great programming tool but rather good at the other 90% which we're missing here. Can we not somehow start to get artists more involved in this community?

I don't feel guilty. As I said at least twice, I have asked for help for the graphics and I will put the new ones into my game step by step when the next version based on JME 2.0 is ready and reliable (I thank cylab, erikd, egonolsen, Riven, bienator, OrangyTang ...). A guy who works in the music has allowed me to reuse one of his samples. However, it is not new, it is often really hard to go on developing my game whereas I have a full-time job and lots of things to do. I know that I'm not an artist.

ps. apologies for long rant and giving gouessej a new hole from which to splutter apoplectically at me

It does not make me laugh, I'm tired, I do what I can in my spare time whereas I'm very busy. Nobody will stop me. We should stop speaking about my game here, it is not the subject on this thread, ok? Sorry for the disturbance and for my approximative English.

However the only thing I want in a gaming community like this is feedback for feedback, and I think that since I'm trying to promote java just like everyone else that they should want to help, and if they don't than there's something wrong.

I think the first thing that's wrong is your assumption that everyone else wants the same as you. JGO is more than the Showcase, and I for one scarcely ever look in there. I'm also not trying to promote Java. I like Java as a language, although sometimes its quirks annoy me, and I've been writing games in it for a while, but if I move to a company which uses XNA or Flash then I'll learn a new language and transfer my other skills across.

I almost never look in Showcase because usually it's just full of crap half-finished rubbish and I've gotten numb to the disappointment so I don't bother any more. Sorry, just got my honest blunt hat on again today. But if anything's going to move forward then someone's got to start telling it like it is. We've been at this for years now and nothing seems to have changed much.

Talked to Kev earlier on, he had a couple more observations:

1. Showcase should really be for finished, properly finished stuff.2. There might otherwise more usefully be a "Feedback" topic for those that want to give feedback on works in progress.3. It's worth noting that the people that have succeeded with Java in games, Oddlabs, Three Rings, Chrome, Agency9, don't get involved on JGO at all.

3. It's worth noting that the people that have succeeded with Java in games, Oddlabs, Three Rings, Chrome, Agency9, don't get involved on JGO at all.

What do you mean exactly? Agency9 made the FPS called Megacorps Online and they stopped it because this:

Quote

The project was canceled due to a shift in our business focus. The source code was never released. The game is based on our 3D-engine, AgentFX, and the idea was to have a game demo to serve as a proof-of-concept for AgentFX.

We shifted our business from 3D-engine licensing to developing and licesning ready-to-go applications. Currently we offer two products: 3DMaps EX, an on-line 3D map visualization product and Madlix 3DGreetings, a 3D application for mobile phones to send personalized and animated 3D messages. Consequently we no loger offer AgentFX for licensing but it is the foundation of our products and projects.

I think we as with many others who had game projects in Java discovered that the drive from the console companies (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc) are so strong that it is difficult to see a great market success for "on-line gaming", that is on-line as played from the web browser.

I think we as with many others who had game projects in Java discovered that the drive from the console companies (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc) are so strong that it is difficult to see a great market success for "on-line gaming", that is on-line as played from the web browser.

I cant stay saying nothing when I read such...., so I want to disagree with that point, inded if you have to install anything there is no more interrest than a .exe, but the good thing is that Java is on most plateforms, IMHO online game is a very good target for Java game as for flash. but I think there is two points that should not be missed : 1 - dont try to make the lastest AAA game, cause there are no interrest to run such game "online" in a browser, 2 - dont use all lastest JVM fancy features because the game will run about nowhere except on your own and friends computers.

web game must be the most compatible as possible, cause that the main interrest of a web game is to be played from different location easily and in opposition of others games is not to be installed everywhere.

NB: I really like the work of Ben Librojo who match exacly how a Java web game should be made, you just know that you can play those games from everywhere you are : at home/at work/at family/at friends etc... lot of demo/game dont run anymore when I start them from another computer than mine... as the previews I mentionned above (towerdefence) and wich I just tried from one of my family computer which is not java developpers computer.

I have seen some really fun games here on jgo. I have seen some crappy ones as well. but the good ones out weigh the bad ones by far. There are a few java games that I play in my free time. You are targeting the minority. when the majority of games are fun.

Don't expect polished games from programmers. That is why there are arists. Most games you will see here, are not artisticaly pleasing. Most get their merit for A, Not needing to much graphics, or B, Having amazing features.

I think JGO should have this, may weed out the two and then the visitor wanted to see the showcase he can and not get incomplete games.

I disagree with you. I met this problem when I wanted to create an incubator in the previous JGT. Which precise and objective criteria can be used to determine whether a game is incomplete or complete?

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