Why can't you guys just throw Pat Robertson under the bus? Concede a point or two and maybe the other side won't be so frustrated all the time. What he said was absolutely despicable.

And this branches out to a larger issue. When I hear a liberal talking out of his ass and deliberately distorting the truth or flat out lying, I'll call him on it. It makes me sick when people who agree with me do stupid things that might make people ignore the message because they don't like the messenger. Yet, I see so few conservatives out there who will do the same. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, and Mark Levin are manipulative, divisive jerkbags who do nothing but harm America by escalating the conflict between the parties to make a quick buck. Conservatives need to divorce themselves from these nutjobs. And if they would, publicly mind you, you'd probably get a lot more cooperation and sympathy.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

For the record, Haiti has had a serious problem with witchcraft for a long time, and it's folly to dismiss the social problems that accompany that, any more than one would dismiss the impact on India's poverty problem by the designation of an "untouchable" class within Hinduism.

That said, Christian mission groups have been working on both the spiritual and humanitarian needs in Haiti for a long time, and it was unfortunate to ascribe this earthquake solely to one element of Haiti's history. Particularly at a time when the dead are still lying in the streets.

I haven't studied Haiti's history indepth and don't know whether the episode Robertson described is historical truth.

What I do know is that I have personally received emails from no less than 15 Christian organizations that are dispatching aid and relief supplies within hours, and it seemed like my FaceBook page just exploded with people and organizations ready to go, or acting on behalf of others. This Sunday morning will likely see a humanitarian armada raised that dwarfs anything in the non-Christian realm. (Many people aren't aware that a lot of the government pledges to disasters like these are channelled through Christian NGOs.)

For the record, Haiti has had a serious problem with witchcraft for a long time, and it's folly to dismiss the social problems that accompany that, any more than one would dismiss the impact on India's poverty problem by the designation of an "untouchable" class within Hinduism.

That said, Christian mission groups have been working on both the spiritual and humanitarian needs in Haiti for a long time, and it was unfortunate to ascribe this earthquake solely to one element of Haiti's history. Particularly at a time when the dead are still lying in the streets.

I haven't studied Haiti's history indepth and don't know whether the episode Robertson described is historical truth.

What I do know is that I have personally received emails from no less than 15 Christian organizations that are dispatching aid and relief supplies within hours, and it seemed like my FaceBook page just exploded with people and organizations ready to go, or acting on behalf of others. This Sunday morning will likely see a humanitarian armada raised that dwarfs anything in the non-Christian realm. (Many people aren't aware that a lot of the government pledges to disasters like these are channelled through Christian NGOs.)

For the record, Haiti has had a serious problem with witchcraft for a long time, and it's folly to dismiss the social problems that accompany that, any more than one would dismiss the impact on India's poverty problem by the designation of an "untouchable" class within Hinduism.

That said, Christian mission groups have been working on both the spiritual and humanitarian needs in Haiti for a long time, and it was unfortunate to ascribe this earthquake solely to one element of Haiti's history. Particularly at a time when the dead are still lying in the streets.

I haven't studied Haiti's history indepth and don't know whether the episode Robertson described is historical truth.

What I do know is that I have personally received emails from no less than 15 Christian organizations that are dispatching aid and relief supplies within hours, and it seemed like my FaceBook page just exploded with people and organizations ready to go, or acting on behalf of others. This Sunday morning will likely see a humanitarian armada raised that dwarfs anything in the non-Christian realm. (Many people aren't aware that a lot of the government pledges to disasters like these are channelled through Christian NGOs.)

Problem is, people like Sammi never see that side.

To be fair, the Christian realm (unfortunately, in my eyes, sorry) dwarfs the non-Christian one in the United States. And I never said that Christians could never do good things. There are plenty that do. There are just those others that do terrible things and try to legislate their religious way of life for the whole country to follow. Lately, I hear a lot from Christians, among others, that moderate Muslims need to do more to separate themselves from the radical ones. Well, that should also apply to the Christians, too.

You want to know how to make Sammi and others see that side? Here's your response:

"Ya, Pat Robertson is a real twat. Fuck that guy, he doesn't represent me. Anyway, folks, if you want to help out the disaster relief, you can make a donation to <blah blah Christian charity dispatching help>."

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Is it aid freely given if it comes with a sermon? Or does that count as strings attached? Is it really altruistic? Of course Frank et al won't like this line of discussion, but I actually think these are fair questions to consider.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

To be fair, the Christian realm (unfortunately, in my eyes, sorry) dwarfs the non-Christian one in the United States. And I never said that Christians could never do good things. There are plenty that do. There are just those others that do terrible things and try to legislate their religious way of life for the whole country to follow. Lately, I hear a lot from Christians, among others, that moderate Muslims need to do more to separate themselves from the radical ones. Well, that should also apply to the Christians, too.

You want to know how to make Sammi and others see that side? Here's your response:

"Ya, Pat Robertson is a real twat. Fuck that guy, he doesn't represent me. Anyway, folks, if you want to help out the disaster relief, you can make a donation to <blah blah Christian charity dispatching help>."

One other thing they could do re not just Roberston but ALL Xianity: separate the religion from right-wing ideology. They are synonymous in the US.

This is not the case with any other religion - religion should be apolitical imo.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Everyone understands that any number of non-Christian religions in the world are denied as truth but not labelled Witchcraft.

Regarding aid, Christians do not offer disaster and poverty relief to entice conversion. Those that convert to Christianity for economic reasons cause more problems for local churches abroad than any other group.

Everyone understands that any number of non-Christian religions in the world are denied as truth but not labelled Witchcraft.

Regarding aid, Christians do not offer disaster and poverty relief to entice conversion. Those that convert to Christianity for economic reasons cause more problems for local churches abroad than any other group.

If he told you to jump off a bridge, would you? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Also, seems like he commanded this:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and
persecute you;

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is
in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil
and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on
the unjust."

(Matthew 5:43-45 KJV)

Oooops, seems like most of the vocal right wing christian nuts forgot to obey jesus here. I could find plenty of other commandments that are disregarded. Pick and choose, pick and choose. Christianity should be renamed Convenientanity.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Everyone understands that any number of non-Christian religions in the world are denied as truth but not labelled Witchcraft.

Do they? Maybe they don't know so much about Fundamentalist Xianity then if so.

Fundies may not label other religions witchcraft but I can guarantee you two things - and I know this for a fact about Robertson seeing as we're talking about him;

1. No other religion whatsoever is regarded as valid (with the exception of Judaism which is regarded as valid but having 'gone wrong' in not accepting Christ).

2. All of these are held to be inspired by Satan in exactly the same way Witchcraft is. In many cases - more esoteric religions or movements - then they are held to be 'of the Occult'.

Quote:

Regarding aid, Christians do not offer disaster and poverty relief to entice conversion. Those that convert to Christianity for economic reasons cause more problems for local churches abroad than any other group.

And, since we are on the topic of natural disasters, I think it's time that I quote from my own holy scripture:

God's Love by Bad Religion

Striking at mental apparitions
Like a drunk on a vacant street,
Silently beset by the hands of time,
Indelicate in its fury.
An aberrant "crack" as skeletons yield
To unrelenting gravity
While viruses prowl for helpless victims
Who succumb rapidly.

Tell me! Tell me where is the love
In a careless creation?
When there’s no above
There’s no justice,
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of suffering
It seems we all endure.
And what I’m frightened of
Is that they call it God’s love.

Twisted torment, make believe
There’s a truth and we all submit
Believe my eyes my brain replies
To all that they interpret.

Tell me! Tell me where is the love
In a careless creation?
When there’s no above
There’s no justice,
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of suffering
It seems we all endure.
And what I’m frightened of
Is that they call it God’s love.

I know there’s no reason for alarm,
But who needs perspective
When it comes to pain and harm?
We can change our minds,
There’s a better prize,
But first you’ve got to...

Tell me! Tell me where is the love
In a careless creation?
When there’s no above
There’s no justice,
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of suffering
It seems we all endure.And what I’m frightened of
Is that they call it God’s love.
My pain is God's love.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

To be fair, the Christian realm (unfortunately, in my eyes, sorry) dwarfs the non-Christian one in the United States.

I don't live in the United States. And I would bet dollars to donuts that Evangelical Christians in Canada (only 14% of the population in Canada) will punch way above their weight when the final numbers are counted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

You want to know how to make Sammi and others see that side? Here's your response:

"Ya, Pat Robertson is a real twat. F--k that guy, he doesn't represent me. Anyway, folks, if you want to help out the disaster relief, you can make a donation to <blah blah Christian charity dispatching help>."

Well for one thing, I don't use profanity. It's nothing but pollution of the mind.

I also don't fault Pat Robertson for looking at the spiritual implications behind a significant news event (it's what he's paid for) I simply didn't think he expressed it properly or completely or in a thoughtful enough way. Robertson, love him or hate him, does work in the missions world. Everyone in the missions world is acquainted with the problems in Haiti. Many are extremely frustrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

Is it aid freely given if it comes with a sermon? Or does that count as strings attached? Is it really altruistic? Of course Frank et al won't like this line of discussion, but I actually think these are fair questions to consider.

As I mentioned above, this line of thinking is only floated by Liberals because their worldview can't fathom doing such painful work without an ulterior motive. Liberals hijack school systems for their union friends and to promote their pet social causes. If they spent their time opening soup kitchens, they'd require attendees to listen to speeches on universal health care.

Read that Globe and Mail story I linked to and tell me that woman was motivated by building numbers at some church to which she belonged.

If anyone does want to help, I'm sure most major papers will have links to World Vision, The Salvation Army, Samaritan's Purse, World Relief, CRWRC and others.

Ok, I gotta raise a middle finger to you here for a moment because you just said "liberals can't fathom doing painful work without an ulterior motive." I am in Eagle Scout. I give my time to the community and in service to others freely, and with no dumbass god breathing down my neck telling me to. So do plenty of others. Your accusations are just absurd.

Quote:

As I mentioned above, this line of thinking is only floated by Liberals because their worldview can't fathom doing such painful work without an ulterior motive. Liberals hijack school systems for their union friends and to promote their pet social causes. If they spent their time opening soup kitchens, they'd require attendees to listen to speeches on universal health care.

Ya, you're just showing your amazing depths of bigotry in this statement. Now it's preserved for everyone to see what a raging hypocrite you are.

And universal healthcare is one of the most Jesusy social policies you can think of. *facepalm*

JESUS WAS A LIBERAL!

Quote:

Well for one thing, I don't use profanity. It's nothing but pollution of the mind.

You may not use profanity, but what you just said was quite profane. More sad, sad irony.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Ok, I gotta raise a middle finger to you here for a moment because you just said "liberals can't fathom don't painful work without an ulteriour motive." I am in Eagle Scout. I give my time to the community and in service to others freely, and with no dumbass god breathing down my neck telling me to. So do plenty of others. Your accusations are just absurd.

Ya, you're just showing your amazing depths of bigotry in this statement. Now it's preserved for everyone to see what a raging hypocrite you are.

And universal healthcare is one of the most Jesusy social policies you can think of. *facepalm*

JESUS WAS A LIBERAL!

So let me understand this. Since you are a good citizen and a liberal that Invalidates his entire statement and makes him a bigot. But the reverse is not true for you or your arguments?

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

So let me understand this. Since you are a good citizen and a liberal that Invalidates his entire statement and makes him a bigot. But the reverse is not true for you or your arguments?

I wasn't making blanket statements about all Christians. I conceded there were many good Christians out there. Also, Jesus was a liberal and Frank's words were more profane than any profanity he refuses to utter.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Well yeah. Except for the fact that he never found occasion to disagree with the prohibitions against sex outside Biblical Marriage, told a Samaritan woman her whole religion didn't even know the right God, said that poverty could never be ended under human government, said that His was the only way to Heaven and commanded His followers to convert everyone they could on the planet.

Of course, Sego will respond with the pathetic, predictable attempt to undermine the reliability of the Biblical record, but your quote above seems to accept the Bible as a historical record of Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

If he told you to jump off a bridge, would you? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yes. [Sorry, couldn't resist answering.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

Also, seems like he commanded this:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and
persecute you;

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is
in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil
and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on
the unjust."

(Matthew 5:43-45 KJV)

Oooops, seems like most of the vocal right wing christian nuts forgot to obey jesus here. I could find plenty of other commandments that are disregarded. Pick and choose, pick and choose. Christianity should be renamed Convenientanity.

I admit all of us have been hypocritical within Christianity at some time or another. It is impossible to find Christian hypocrites outside Christianity. That said, please let me know precisely what aspects of this scripture you think have been breached. Christians go outside their comfort zone all the time. Just this week, Joel Osteen [whose theology is not my cup of tea] prayed for Houston's new lesbian mayor because of the biblical mandate to pray for our leaders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segovius

The alleged injunction to 'spread the Gospel to all corners of the world' is held to be a prerequisite for Christ's return and to hasten it by many Fundies.

Lame. That scripture, as far as I can tell, has been fulfilled. Turn on the TV in any country on the planet.
The scripture does not say that every single person was to be reached with the Gospel (and we all know that's not the case.)

The same idiots who claim the "fundies" want this to bring Christ's return also claim we align with Israel solely to convert the Jews [to hasten the Return.]
You guys need to update your talking points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by segovius

Which is why you do not see equal effort and aid put into home disasters or ones in Western Xian countries. That would make a good side by side analysis actually - the breakdown of those two figures.

Abject nonsense.

Actually, more of a blatant lie. I personally know people who are going to do missions work in Galveston, Texas next week, long after it's faded from the news. Plenty of Christian groups are currently active in New Orleans, including Canadian ones. It goes without saying that poverty-stricken countries get more humanitarian assistance but going to any of the groups I listed earlier will dispel the idea they only work abroad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

Ok, I gotta raise a middle finger to you here for a moment because you just said "liberals can't fathom don't painful work without an ulteriour motive." I am in Eagle Scout. I give my time to the community and in service to others freely, and with no dumbass god breathing down my neck telling me to. So do plenty of others. Your accusations are just absurd.

Okay, I went inflammatory with my terminology for fun, but it's good to see sometimes what yours (and Sammi's) rhetoric sounds like across the aisle.

Obviously there are non-Christian groups that do good work (Doctors without Borders etc.) But I stand by the assertion that Christian groups do far more per capita than the vocal atheists and agnostics that continually criticize them.

I don't see how that can be denied. A famous (and non-Christian) reporter here for the CBC remarked recently that he'd never been to a trouble spot in the world where there wasn't already a Christian group on the ground at work.

You can't dismiss the sheer volume of humanitarian assistance rendered by Christians simply by saying America is mostly devoutly Christian (it isn't) and Christians do it for the recruits (we don't) or that others do it just as much (doesn't happen.)

I am thankful that you and others give of your time and talent to help the less fortunate. But there is a marked difference between the number of Christians and non-Christians who will rent their house, take a leave of absence and head to Africa or India for two years.

Re profanity: Interestingly there is a passage in the Gospels where Jesus insults the Pharisees and is generally translated in English as 'bunch of hypocrites' or some such.

Actually the real translation in the vernacular would be 'pile of shit' or 'crap' if you prefer.

regardless of whether one thinks the Bible has been adjusted or not it is nevertheless a fact that any believer who accepts that the Bible is literally the world of God and derives their belief-system from it is not really doing so at all - they are really believing the translation is the authoratative 'Holy' benchmark.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

but your quote above seems to accept the Bible as a historical record of Jesus.

Nope. I'm just making it easy to converse by momentarily saying "ok fine, even if your fairy tales were true, your conservative savior in american flag underoos really isn't the heartless twat that you all pretend he is."

Quote:

I admit all of us have been hypocritical within Christianity at some time or another. It is impossible to find Christian hypocrites outside Christianity. That said, please let me know precisely what aspects of this scripture you think have been breached. Christians go outside their comfort zone all the time. Just this week, Joel Osteen (whose theology is not my cup of tea] prayed for Houston's new lesbian mayor because of the biblical mandate to pray for our leaders.

God Hates Fags, for one. Yay for Joel Osteen. And double yay if she didn't include in that prayer something about hoping the mayor is saved despite her being an abomination.

You flip on conservative talk radio or TV and you'll see a bunch of self-proclaimed Christians spouting the most venomous hate toward Liberals. Hell, it happens on these boards every day. That's what I'm talking about.

Quote:

Okay, I went inflammatory with my terminology for fun but it's good to see sometimes what yours (and Sammi's) rhetoric sounds like across the aisle.

Except that isn't my rhetoric. You want it to be? I hope every Christian loses his faith tomorrow. I think the world will be a better place for it. I hope that mankind drops the shackles of religion and actually progresses into the 21st century and out toward the stars as one people, no longer divided by tribal supernatural bigotry. No matter how much good you do, if you perpetuate the abominable machinations of tyranny that is organized religion, that evil you have done can never be outweighed in your lifetime. You and your kind are a plague upon this world and I so long for the days we can all discuss Jesus and Yahweh in the same breath as Zeus, Mithras, Odin, Oester, and all the other gods we have shed in our past.

Choke on that.

See, I don't think you want me mimicking your rhetoric. You won't like what you hear. Of course, I really do believe pretty much all that I said, but it really isn't all that nice to say so I usually keep much of it to myself.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Re profanity: Interestingly there is a passage in the Gospels where Jesus insults the Pharisees and is generally translated in English as 'bunch of hypocrites' or some such.

Actually the real translation in the vernacular would be 'pile of shit' or 'crap' if you prefer.

regardless of whether one thinks the Bible has been adjusted or not it is nevertheless a fact that any believer who accepts that the Bible is literally the world of God and derives their belief-system from it is not really doing so at all - they are really believing the translation is the authoratative 'Holy' benchmark.

Actually I believe the translation you are looking for is "whitewashed tombs".

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Actually I believe the translation you are looking for is "whitewashed tombs".

Whited sepulchres yes...there are other instances where he insults Herod too.

So, why is it wrong to use profanity? Surely the injunction is against blasphemy anyway?

This may seem slightly ot but actually it is not; Xianity has grown a lot of accretions that are nothing to do with the original idea and worse, are held to be HOLY WRIT...this is approaching blasphemy imo if there is a God.

I think Xians need saving from this. They should repent before it's too late.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

your conservative savior in american flag underoos really isn't the heartless twat that you all pretend he is."

We're not the ones doing the pretending. Jesus' teaching defies classification as left or right, but on moral issues it's far closer to modern conservative than liberal ideology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

God Hates Fags, for one. Yay for Joel Osteen. And double yay if she didn't include in that prayer something about hoping the mayor is saved despite her being an abomination.

You flip on conservative talk radio or TV and you'll see a bunch of self-proclaimed Christians spouting the most venomous hate toward Liberals. Hell, it happens on these boards every day. That's what I'm talking about.

Calling those crazies Christian is like calling NAMBLA a Democratic Party adjunct.

Politics has become bitterly contested lately, but I'd counter that far more of the venom is parroted by New Atheist disciples and others on the left.

Slowly but surely, the prime advocates of abortion are losing the demographic war and your side knows it. It's obvious that this was going to happen (math is neither left nor right) but the reason talk radio and Christians (which liberals claim not to listen to) offend you so much is that lefties feel they are slowly losing a grip on power that they've have for a long time.

And for advocating the murder of millions of children out of sheer convenience, it serves them right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

Choke on that.

I see little surprising in that quote. It's pretty standard discourse now when conversing with an atheist.

Yeah, I'm the one advocating we share our resources so no one goes hungry, without shelter, without medical care, and without general police and fire protection and somehow I end up being the bad guy in all of this. And I don't have a god compelling me to feel this way.

Every Christian who doesn't believe the same is a selfish, hypocritical prick.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Nope. I'm just making it easy to converse by momentarily saying "ok fine, even if your fairy tales were true, your conservative savior in american flag underoos really isn't the heartless twat that you all pretend he is."

Heartless how?

Quote:

Except that isn't my rhetoric. You want it to be? I hope every Christian loses his faith tomorrow. I think the world will be a better place for it. I hope that mankind drops the shackles of religion and actually progresses into the 21st century and out toward the stars as one people, no longer divided by tribal supernatural bigotry. No matter how much good you do, if you perpetuate the abominable machinations of tyranny that is organized religion, that evil you have done can never be outweighed in your lifetime. You and your kind are a plague upon this world and I so long for the days we can all discuss Jesus and Yahweh in the same breath as Zeus, Mithras, Odin, Oester, and all the other gods we have shed in our past.

Choke on that.

See, I don't think you want me mimicking your rhetoric. You won't like what you hear. Of course, I really do believe pretty much all that I said, but it really isn't all that nice to say so I usually keep much of it to myself.

Honesty of your position makes it easier to know where you are coming from. I don't mind your opinions regarding religion. Or even regarding Jesus, Yaweh or any other name for God you wish to bring up. My inner child will not cry, much. But I will take time to correct anything I disagree with or take issue with a point if I think it is unfairly presented. Your view here is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

And about the previous post, I think I was partially crossing your posts with Segovius. My apologies, you did make the effort to say there were good Christians.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

We're not the ones doing the pretending. Jesus' teaching defies classification as left or right, but on moral issues it's far closer to modern conservative than liberal ideology.

How? You'll need to back that up...it seems a delusional statement put perhaps you can provide some coherent argument and examples so let's hold off judgement for now...

Quote:

Calling those crazies Christian is like calling NAMBLA a Democratic Party adjunct.

And yet, the extremists in other religions are taken as representative proof of that religion's falseness.

The rule seems to be:

In Xianity extremists are crazies who don't get it.

In other religions extremists are true believers who do get it.

Quote:

Politics has become bitterly contested lately, but I'd counter that far more of the venom is parroted by New Atheist disciples and others on the left.

What has politics got to do with religion?

As I said above - you need to junk it. Where did Christ ever say his mission was political?

Quote:

Slowly but surely, the prime advocates of abortion are losing the demographic war and your side knows it. It's obvious that this was going to happen (math is neither left nor right) but the reason talk radio and Christians (which liberals claim not to listen to) offend you so much is that lefties feel they are slowly losing a grip on power that they've have for a long time.

What's abortion got to do with it? This seems a fundie obsession but not sure exactly why....

Quote:

And for advocating the murder of millions of children out of sheer convenience, it serves them right.

Question: would it be ok if not done 'out of convenience' ?

Is it the killing that is wrong? Or the killing children? I think any position other than 'all killing is wrong' would be irrational with in a Xian framework.

Quote:

I see little surprising in that quote. It's pretty standard discourse now when conversing with an atheist.

Seems mild compared to some things I've heard. I can recall being called 'sinner' and 'evil' and various other things in my time.

It wasn't always in anger...sometimes the implication and tone is compassionate, like I have a disease and need to be helped - but that is all the more insulting isn't it really?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Re profanity: Interestingly there is a passage in the Gospels where Jesus insults the Pharisees and is generally translated in English as 'bunch of hypocrites' or some such.

Actually the real translation in the vernacular would be 'pile of shit' or 'crap' if you prefer.

regardless of whether one thinks the Bible has been adjusted or not it is nevertheless a fact that any believer who accepts that the Bible is literally the world of God and derives their belief-system from it is not really doing so at all - they are really believing the translation is the authoratative 'Holy' benchmark.

And wasn't much of what is included in the Bible actually supposedly spoken long before writing systems existed, so it was all passed down by word of mouth, then repeatedly transcribed by hand and possibly not perfectly or accurately done?

Anybody hear a family story passed down through the generations? It evolves; even within the same generation, it is influenced by the person telling it and upon who they heard it from.

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

And wasn't much of what is included in the Bible actually supposedly spoken long before writing systems existed, so it was all passed down by word of mouth, then repeatedly transcribed by hand and possibly not perfectly or accurately done?

Anybody hear a family story passed down through the generations? It evolves; even within the same generation, it is influenced by the person telling it and upon who they heard it from.

Yes, some Old Testament stories were an oral tradition which was later transcribed...the flood for example.

In other cases there is clear textual evidence that two different authors' works were combined into one. The two differing (and contradictory) creation stories in Genesis are a classic example as are the two different versions of the Ten Commandments.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Yes, there is a very wide ranging effort by Fundie Xians to target believers of other religions - it has even be called Christian Jihad

Quote:

When the Taliban captured humanitarian relief workers Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer in August, religious and political leaders in the United States were aghast. The Taliban accused the aid workers of being on a secret campaign to convert Muslims. It seemed yet another sign of the Taliban's dishonesty, extremism and paranoia.
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But now that Curry and Mercer and the six other Shelter Now relief workers are safe, a different story can be told. The Taliban was partly right. Curry and Mercer did spend time in Afghanistan evangelizing--in violation of Afghani law. More significantly, they are part of a widespread and rapidly growing effort among American Christians to convert Muslims around the world.
They are warriors, in other words, in what can fairly be described as a Christian jihad against Islam.

Although the two women say that most of their time was spent providing practical humanitarian care, Curry has conceded that about 20% of the Taliban's charges against them were valid. She admits, for instance, that she gave a boy a book about Jesus, and that she and Mercer showed at least one Afghani family a movie known as "the Jesus" film. The Jesus film is a popular tool of missionaries seeking converts. Translated into 685 languages, the 1979 film was made for $2 million by Campus Crusade for Christ founder Bill Bright with the financial backing of conservative oilman Nelson "Bunker" Hunt.

It is not particularly surprising that Curry and Mercer did a bit of proselytizing while there. The church where they are members regularly sponsors misisonaries in foreign countries to "introduce people to God and see them 'discipled' as followers of Christ," says Jeff Abshire, pastor of Antioch Community Church in Waco, Texas.

The group that sponsored the women, Shelter Now, is part of a larger network of evangelical Christians that has sprung up in the last decade to target Muslims for conversion to Christianity. Since 1990, the number of missionaries in Islamic countries has quadrupled. Mission experts estimate they have spoken to or given Christian material to about 334 million people in that time. Franklin Graham's assertion last week that Islam is "wicked, violent, and not of the same God" also flows from this movement.

Groups such as Youth With a Mission and the Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board, sponsor two-week jaunts to places like Kyrgyzstan to convert Muslims to Christianity.

For Christians who can't travel, there are guides to help them pray specifically for converts in these areas.

The Xian obsession with 'converting' people seems to violate freedom of speech and all basic moral laws.

In a free society then I choose my belief and you choose yours. For one of us to try to change the other's belief because they believe it to be wrong is actually immoral. And to prey on others in third world or underdeveloped countries who belong to a different culture is bordering on a crime imo.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Some of the posters in this thread have no shame, hence they vote repub.

"One of the world's most influential scientists has warned that climate change could devastate Africa, predicting an increase in catastrophic food shortages. Conway predicts hunger on the continent could increase dramatically in the short term as droughts and desertification increase, and climate change affects water supplies. "Projected reductions in crop yields could be as much as 50% by 2020 and 90% by 2100," the paper says."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...-gordon-conway

The list of crimes that both dems and repubs have committed is too long to list. To attribute their actions in any way as being influenced by Jesus is evil itself personified.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.