Normally I would include this in the aven thread, we do as a whole, try to keep aven stuff in that thread. On this occasion though and as it keeps coming up I felt it might help some to see a clearer picture rather than the usual way aven deals with it where a member/members asking why not and the admods taking it off track deliberatly so they can then lock it till the next time.

I''m breaking it down into 2 parts..the first part will deal with some of the myths and excuses so far, some of the counter arguments (as you would expect from admods only ) and some of the lies members have been told

The second part will be as I always try and do...not just show you what is wrong but how to make it work...tradittionally anything I suggest to the team ends up not being done because it is me that said it or they stall it for 6 months then one of the team will claim it as one of their ideas , you'd be surprised how much of me is woven into aven that way

so in this first post..some of the truths and lies as to why this needs to happen and the claims why it will not.

Firstly an apology...as we have seen recently..when members post links to aven in external places..mods then try and shut that facility down claiming "member safety"...that is bullshit of course as a visibility site treating non members as "Muggles" is not what aven was created for......visibility is what aven was created for and not protection for ther few...and they call ME elitist

My point for saying that is after using the following thread as an example...I fully expect the usual candidates to try and now shut site comments down to the outside world...I have predicted it, it will be so but you at least will know the true reason for it

So...this thread is a good example and covers most of the pro's and no's

Multiple polls have been created and not just one and within them one question keeps coming back with the same answer and by a substantive majority..do you think the admods roles should be a fixed term ? the answer is always a majority yes

Bear in mind here, part of avens own backroom already does and has been working on the 2 year term limits. This works incredibly well, retains skills when elections come and brings in new blood should a pt wish to step down..so it already exists...it's just the admods do NOT want equality of service or accountability for themselves...but lets go through that thread in site comments and highlight a few parts and then answer them if I may

Kisa used to be called tea and pook used to be known as arch so it's on those names I use but you can see who I mean

When asked why the admods have ignored the majority vote on wishing 2 year terms to be brought in for admods tea said this

The way I see it is that we have to do what is best for the site before what the members want. Fixed terms means that some admods with experience are at risk for leaving. People like Ams, Kelly and SGM bring great things to the team and I really don't want to lose them because of a term limit.

When you are in the admods and in their long enough, you forget the members are aven...and not the admods, so when you have a majority and a large one at that asking for change and you ignore it then you have not put aven first...you have put the admods first

I did find it funny that tea offered up 3 of her own colleagues but not only left herself out but was willing to throw her own colleagues onto the sword ...the risk of leaving comment? that was some of the admods have said if they ever introduce accountability through a 2 year term limit, they would immediately resign...now be honest..do those people sound like they want the best for aven...or themselves?

Bipolar said this

One issue with term limits is implementation. To suddenly start a new process, without considering how long a team member has been in position would be inviting chaos and disorganization. It's not as easy as saying "from here on out, we're instating term limits" because of experience, training, projects and various tasks in play

As with all new implementations in life there will be a transition phase but that should never be the reason to do nothing at all but let a bad system continue...but if planned right (something the team themselves are not known for)..then the transistion will be minimal in fuss or issues ( I will explain this further in part 2)...but it is all achievable..with all inputs for avens best future in mind...those who have a self interest in the backroom will try and scuttle it but I do feel some back there are genuinely chomping at the bit to bring accountability to their role....most claiming to be asexual and using aven are college people so I ask you..would you allow a body claiming to represent you to have no accountability for those people you elected?

bi polar again

Another issue is that members don't know the ins and outs of every position. It is far easier to see what a Mod is or isn't doing within their forum(s), than it would be to measure an Admin's role, or perhaps even the workload balanced between Declass Team members. There's a lot that goes on in the background that members just don't see, which keeps the site running smoothly on a day to day basis

Annnnd this is why we have bios...if a mod or admin feels they are "community invisible" due to their role then at re-election time they can give bios ..as would any candidate..and give the best opportunity to explain why they would be good for the role and what skills they have that would benefit that role...they would not be denied this opportunity by the 2 year term in fact on a regular basis it would allow them to higlight what they bring to the table

Swankypants said this

if this were the case and a "good mod" wasn't re-elected, there's nothing preventing them from running in the next "term end election" even if that were for a different role.

additionally, if a mod were dropped, it would create opportunities for less-driven members of the team to take a step down if they so choose, opening a position for the more-driven mod to stay a part of the team

About sums it up really..not one single admod who is still in place when their role is advertised will be stopped from running from that vacancy again, should they not win that then again, as long as they reach the election criteria then they are treated as equally as any member wishing to run

Not Cavy x said this

I get that implenmentation would be difficult, and it would be a pain to run the elections for positions that are already filled but it wouldn't have to be an immediate thing is this did happen. Could go 6 months and then slowly phase in re-elections. I'm not even really sure how long terms should be, moderator burn out is quite high because mod's tend to have a lot more they do than just their forums. And with Admin elections although they are elected by mod's in a private vote, again it doesn't mean we would loose Ams, Kelly or anyone else, it would just be as simple as putting your name into the pot again. No one is denying the level the admins contribute to the forums and as an ex moderator I know that a lot more goes on then people realise

Actually it would be incredibly easy and the only discomfort, again minimal would be at the transition phase but again I will explain on part 2.

What about the admins? is a question often thrown up to hide or block the discussion

How many mods or admins are still in the role they were elcted to be in? most are not. this has been raised a few times and for good reason....someone I think would be a brilliant mod for just for fun so would get my vote, might be a terrible choice say for the hotbox and would never have gotten my vote for that so when that has been challenged the reply from the team has mostly been......YOU JOIN THE TEAM AND NOT THE ROLE...so that is why the admins are no different.....under the two year terms it doesn matter if you are admin or mod..what you do in there during those two years as far as positions go is upto you..that flexibility is not being removed..but you go in..at the end of two years , you have to run again...after all aren't we always being told..admods are members too?

Again if a mod or admin feels their role needs to be clarified at election time..then they can through bios

Lia said this

Admods being "at risk" for leaving is BS. There are several Admods who have been an Admod for a long time who have outright said they would quit immediately should term limits be implemented. Basically, it's because Admods don't want it and they're going to hide behind the "it's best for the site" curtain because that's what's most convenient.

It's true..some have said in a blunt way if I may project it for you..."F*ck you members, this is my ball and if we don't play it my way then I'm taking the ball home and leaving"......honestly, does that sound like the people you voted in, does that sound like the people who want the best for aven or themselves, does that sound like the people who should be making decisions about you, members, aven and even how people see asexuality?

so Tea admitted she was one of these but put her explanation of why

Ummm hi I'm outing myself as one of the admods who said that and here's why.

It is NOT because of my own self interests but because elections are a pain in the ass and when I said it I wasn't sure I would have had the time to run. It was basically my hand being forced.

Kthanx.

PS Not resigning. I do my job well but I do a LOT. The fact that I can't keep up with an election if it were to come up is not a reason I will resign.

The elections exscuse still gets used but is a red herring..we have many elections every year for posts under the current system so the 2 year term limit I suspect, will actually decrease these as people have a target to aim for..sometimes people leave after 18 months in the role but could stay longer is they see hey it's onlyy a few months left, lets see it out..so I feel a system that lets people know where they stand will reduce the amount of elections not increase it..certianly that has been the proof from how the pt work under the 2 year scheme

No one was forcing your hand...no one, either you want to do the role for the benefit of aven and it's members or you don't..it really is that simple..but if you do do it, then do it for the forum, and not for a small group who wish to remain unaccountable and who are blocking a system of equality and fairness.

No one has asked you to resign or asked anyone to resign?...another strawman argument...what is being asked is that the mods/admods have the same system as the project team, a parity in fairness and roles to be put in place..every single admin or mod who steps down under the 2 year rule..is allowed (as long as they meet the election requirements for all)..every single admin and mod are treated equally as any other member wanting to run for an elected role...isn't that what equality is all about?

Threats of resignations are the tools of spoilt children and not of those who want the best for the people that voted them in

LG said this

It doesn't seem fair to say that an admin or mod who thinks the current system is better for the site is hiding behind the easy answer or that there is no risk of losing experienced team members.

So, I do believe that there is the chance that we could lose some experienced people if we had terms and I think it's a very valid point against it. If we had term limits would I run again? I don't know...it would definitely give me an opportunity that until then I don't give myself. And in that regard, I do consider myself driven.

Every team loses experienced members, it happens in real life too but..and as we were lead to believe..aven admods have a mentoring system so they are supposed to share with each other, experiences, skills, support and pass things on...not hold things back from your team mates to the detriment of them, aven and it's members

The promised way of doing things was that as newer members came along, the longer serving would help, promote and instruct but also pass on skills allowing then a constant stream of better informed, better supported and more able to cope admods

the system at the momment is half a dozen not mentoring, not supporting, not passing skills on and behaving like golam saying "my precious"...this needs to change and the two year tenure... the two year tenure is the best way to keep enthusiasm, skills sharing and a more cohesive team working for the better of all of aven and not just the select few

Again you would not lose skills and experience as the newer ones would be learning all the time and when their 2 year role comes to it's end...they also can run again if they wish..not one admin or mod will be refused to run again if they wish..at the end of the 2 years..not one

The way they sometimes portray this is as those these grand old masters are an irreplacable skill that will be lost with the darkness of time..like we are proposing some old antique be chopped up for firewood....I think we can all see that is not the case at all and is very much a poor and untruthfull argument

Currently avens backroom is run like that and that is wrong...allowing new blood in but also sharing ,so that one day when they step down the forum will still run and run well...should always be the system that is in place..the 2 year tenure would make this happen..you should never have a system that see's dead mans shoes with no accountability as an icon to be proud of

Lg said this

Well, I think there would have to be some Q&A...for admins in particular. They aren't always as visible to the members and might want to answer some questions or even say what kind of time they spend contributing to AVEN

I agree and so if a admod felt "site invisible", When the 2 year role comes to an end..that admin or mod can run again if they wish and exactly like any other member candidate..they simply put in their bios or Q &A why they feel they are the best candidate for the role...if anything this ability through bios and Q & A will give that ex mod/admin the ability to say with examples and history why they should be considered for the role they would now like. So far from being a negative, it could actually be a positive for the admod stepping down but may wish to run again

Admod apathy or sheer elitism?

i'm going to use my own situation as an example why aven would be a better place, better run and more supportive as I do not think on this one mention I should use another person...I got banned for saying poo poo pants..yup really..but the point I want to make is..when it went to a vote after a discussion that lasted 6weeks..the vote was should I be permanently banned..now between admins and mods, who are the only ones allowed to vote, there was 5 admins and 14 mods so a total of 19 votes ...now you would like to think that when a situation arises that every single admin or mod should vote...out of 19 who should have voted..only 12 did..12.

over a third of admods did not even bother to vote on a banning ..when you have over a third of the admods not even bothering to take part or even vote..just what are those people bringing to aven and it's members they claim to represent?...shouldn't we have people back there more engaged?..shouldn't we have some even turn up?..I don't meant voted to abstain here..I mean over a third did not even vote..and this is how aven is currently run..large parts of the backroom do not feel they have to be accountable, have to put any effort in or even be challenged as to why the they can't give an arse...and still feel they should they should block the role from people who genuinely want to be there...this isn't what they said they would do at election time, this isn't "giving back to aven" as most claimed when they asked you for that vote..it just isn't.

this type of admod is responsible for the ever deteriorating relationship of them and us within aven between the members and the backroom...two year tenatures would resolve this and in very quick time..those who see it as their own domain will take their ball and leave and I say good riddance to those...but those who want change..those are the people we want..not change for change's sake but positive change were everyone has a positive to give to the team and not just a few old antiques running the show making themselves irreplacable because they are not...the forum is bigger than any one person and equality and accountability should be the bedrock of avens backroom

What it comes down to is this, the members through a large majority and on multiple occasions have asked for term limits on admods roles...these are already in place with the pt and the pt works brilliantly..no brain drain loss, no skills loss, those who come to the 2 year term end are still able to run if they wish, but everyone gets a chance to offer aven something and the members get a chance to elect the person for that role

The only people against this are the admods..just them

A point worth making I feel...when every single admod ran through an election..they all said ..I think I have something to offer aven..please vote for me...then when they get in there and see mention of a 2 year tenure...some now say..elections are rubbish they are just a popularist vote...they maybe, but you were happy to use that system to get in yourself in but now want to block others using it now your inside the backroom..looking after aven, or yourself?

So you see..most of the regular arguments about refusing 2 year equality within the backroom..are lies based on personal wishes to remain for themselves and NOT for the benefit of aven or its members

Now..Avens admins and mods can either be leading that drive for a better way forward and equal accountability within the team..or they can be dragged through it by the members with causualities running off with their ball...personally I would rather the team lead the change from the front with the assitance of avens members.....their choice

My fingers hurt now so I will do part 2 ..how do we change the admins..mods to a 2 year tenure...later..thanks for your patience

I think what the discussion will bring, some are already starting to show thier true colours, oooooo it will mean extra elections

erm nope..as they all joined on mostly different dates and not all on the same day, then they would be staggered throughout the year and not one big hit as some are trying to make out..not too different in the spacing it out as it happens now, but simply better and more honest with accountability built in

oooooo it will mean extra elections ...funny, the pt runs this exact proposed 2 year method and you do not see them having more elections...so could you provide proof it will mean more?...nope?

and if some existing mods admins chose not to run again then I hope they will announce it so members can thank them before they leave for their contributions...I hope there are enough of the good ones who would run again, if they choose not to then we have to respect their choice but there will always be people willing to give something back and so will step forward

No one is removing skills or removing ability..the same high standard will simply be held by different people at different times if they are new and if the same older ones choose to run again and are successful, we will always have a positive input of youth, experience. drive and no longer a few dominating the whole forum...as asexuality evolves the constant ability to update and clarify surely must be seen as important?

To those why say they do not like extra work...why are you there then?...but also..the 2 year system is self running..you use this thread listed below, list the join date and then everyone knows exactly where they stand for the 2 years...in many many ways this will help planning the future of aven as you can plan topics, projects and community....I believe targets with dates works quite well in the real world and none have offered a reason why it will not work other than they don't like it themselves....they can't say 2 year tenures does not work because aven itself has shown it does

The thing is ..what they are clearly saying is 2 things..elections to get me in are good but for everything else they are bad..the other thing they are saying is.....whilst we operate the tos to make members accountable to how they perform, we do not want a method as admods to hold us accountable for how we perform...that can't be right in 2016 can it?

The good thing here is...the same people are now identifying themselves and use will smoke and mirrors for the reasons why and almost all are about their own self preservation rather than what is best for aven..the two years works..new people deserve a chance and the better mods will almost always be re-elected..there is nothing other than a win win here for aven, it's members and asexuality.

At some point when I wasn't looking, did Apositive become the "Gripe about AVEN" website?

In the spirit of free speech I allow it, and I'll continue to, but I know how I would feel about it if I were still an admod over there. (Not happy.)

I definitely DON'T agree with some of the ways that they do things, and I think the way that I run Apos is a lot more evenhanded overall since no one is safe from being poked by my pointy stick and I allow anybody to poke back, but when you get down to it, it's up to AVEN to decide how they want to run their site. If you aren't a citizen of a country then you shouldn't be trying to govern it.

Just out of curiosity, does the phrase "armchair quarterback" mean anything in the UK?

PiF was banned for the most ridiculous reason and if he could post there I guess he would. As for me - I sail as close to the wind as I dare. And if they don't like what we post, the solution is simple don't come. Most of them only joined to harass one of the members here anyway.

You lose nothing when fighting for a cause ... In my mind the losers are those who don't have a cause they care about. - Muhammad Ali

Arcmchair quarterback no..we don't play those silly sports, even the ball is the wrong shape for football but backseat driver is is a term we use

I will be later on today doing the part 2 about how we achieve accountability through elections in aven but your post Nancy warranted a reply

At some point when I wasn't looking, did Apositive become the "Gripe about AVEN" website?

I feel we do a lot on apos That has no aven mention at all,,,but....when your asexual..the largest "asexual" forum..i use that term loosely, does impact on the outside world on how people see asexuality..i do not use twitter, facebook, reddit, tumblr and what ever sites there are for people with too much time on their hands...and even I know, we are not the only asexual site that has issues with aven and how it portrays asexuality and how it silences those within it's walls that do not speak the scripted script

In the spirit of free speech I allow it, and I'll continue to, but I know how I would feel about it if I were still an admod over there. (Not happy.)

I would agree but also disagree...how often have we seen in aven and even in here..admins, mods, pt say..it is not something I agree with but I have to go with the majority vote...so whilst some are seeking to protect themselves rather than aven, may feel uncomfortable...others within that team are desperate to bring about positive and accountable change for the community and themselves...in many ways..Apositive provides a voice in here..that they are refused in their own forum..and in many other ways, the comments we have in Apositive, often provides that voice, that is stifled by their role in there

it's up to AVEN to decide how they want to run their site. If you aren't a citizen of a country then you shouldn't be trying to govern it

I'm not so sure, if that was the case the U.S troups, companies and governments would never leave the U.S.'s shores

In regards to asexuality and aven.....I think you under estimate the importance of Apositive Nancy...how often have we seen team members..throughout the team...come here, have an opinion and openly say..in here I can be me, in aven I cannot..how often have we seen aven members come in here in their aven names and sometimes hiding their aven names for personal safety...come in and be able to say a problem with aven that they could not in aven...and let's be honest, honesty does come with sever consequences in aven depending on who you are

This ability to be honest about aven and it's faults given it is the first forum most asexuals go to and the largest forum for "asexuals" ..is absolutely imperitive

Let me give you some reasons why

If you try and show as a non member just how bad aven has become, they will close aven down to non members..who would have thought say even a year ago that aven's moderators would have the mentallity of Russia and the Berlin wall or Trump and the Mexican wall?

Who would have thought that previous safeguards written in stone that said OFF aven comments cannot be acted upon..would now be able to be acted on so limiting peoples ability to be open through fear of consequences IN aven...we know that happens

Who would have thought ..that when you see admins/mods say I didn't agree with the admod vote but we have to go with the majority vote...that they would be able to at the same time....ignore the majority vote of members?

It would seem bizzare if it were not so true..but in many ways ..avens safe places..are not on aven

So anti aven ? no, very much the opposite...look at not only in here but other places that mention avens problems..most will say their piece but also offer ways to make it better..but they have to do that off aven as we know,,,the same admods fighting to not be accountable and walk away if accountability through mod terms is brought in...are the same people that will also go after people on and off aven and carry out personal vendetta and hate campaigns..we know this to be true also

I did in my opening comment say this was an unusal case and as such things aven, normally we try to keep it within the aven thread..we don't always succeed but in general that is where aven things are discussed because in here we discuss other things too

Later on today I will be completing this thread and bringing it too its conclusion with the part 2 part about implementation of the 2 year term..that does not happen because I or anyone else hates aven...it happens because we want it to be better, fairer, reduce the them and us, promote the better more community orientated admods and want to help