As much as I'd like to think V/M can still win, I think the writing is on the wall for this comp. Almost 2 points difference IS a large difference in dance, at least I have always been led to believe it so. However, that being said, I'm very pleased that they did get a level 4 on one of their YP -- first time this season for either V/M or D/W I believe? Also, what do they have to do to get the rest of their levels up in their SD.

As for tomorrow and Carmen, I am trying to convince myself that I won't care about their mark (but I probably still will) and just enjoy those moments. Oh yeah, can I just echo my at the comment made about the ice melting after Carmen is done. If that's the case, I guess D/W may have to swim their routine instead

As much as I'd like to think V/M can still win, I think the writing is on the wall for this comp. Almost 2 points difference IS a large difference in dance, at least I have always been led to believe it so. However, that being said, I'm very pleased that they did get a level 4 on one of their YP -- first time this season for either V/M or D/W I believe? Also, what do they have to do to get the rest of their levels up in their SD.

As for tomorrow and Carmen, I am trying to convince myself that I won't care about their mark (but I probably still will) and just enjoy those moments. Oh yeah, can I just echo my at the comment made about the ice melting after Carmen is done. If that's the case, I guess D/W may have to swim their routine instead

Not sure how much faster they need to skate. Scott did have a few bobbles, but they did not affect the flow of the dance, the character or the performance. I thought they looked rather fast out there today?

Every time I hear this music I have it in my head for days. Absolutely love it!!

I actually do think they can still win, although I don't think it'll actually happen. In the GPF SD thread there are some good points about how D&W's dance is more ballroom and in line with what the judges want, while V&M's SD looks more like an "intellectual mini-FD" which I think is cool. So if the judges honestly prefer Giselle here, they could prefer Carmen in the FD by much more than 2 points. Not holding my breath though.

I do have to disagree that this is "just like last year" though. I personally never worry about scores, just head to head competitions... and last year V&M won every competition* except GPF, where they fell.... so this isn't a good sign at all.

Eh, they got demolished on levels at the GPF last season, scoring one level four to D/W's five. It's not a good sign, of course, but it's a good sign that we're seeing improvement on levels, focus and skate cleanliness.

Not sure how much faster they need to skate. Scott did have a few bobbles, but they did not affect the flow of the dance, the character or the performance. I thought they looked rather fast out there today?

Every time I hear this music I have it in my head for days. Absolutely love it!!

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This bobbles is new element for dance. ISU need to remove spin and liftes from dance and add slow bubbles.

I actually do think they can still win, although I don't think it'll actually happen. In the GPF SD thread there are some good points about how D&W's dance is more ballroom and in line with what the judges want, while V&M's SD looks more like an "intellectual mini-FD" which I think is cool. So if the judges honestly prefer Giselle here, they could prefer Carmen in the FD by much more than 2 points. Not holding my breath though.

I do have to disagree that this is "just like last year" though. I personally never worry about scores, just head to head competitions... and last year V&M won every competition* except GPF, where they fell.... so this isn't a good sign at all.

*WTT is a cheesefest darnit.

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this so reminds me during the time when a/p and f-p/m went head to head with each other in 2000 to 2002. a/p tended to do ODs that looked more like FDs, which while they were technically strong, were frowned upon by the judges for not being ballroom enough. f-p/m were putting out strong, ballroom-y ODs (their 2000 latin and 2001 quickstep) which the judges rewarded. the italians were much stronger on the ODs, while the french trumped them on FDs. and while we're at it, the v/m-d/w rivalry seems to reflect those teams too, with one team being stronger on speed and lightness of feet, and the other on polish, lines and balletic presentation.

this so reminds me during the time when a/p and f-p/m went head to head with each other in 2000 to 2002. a/p tended to do ODs that looked more like FDs, which while they were technically strong, were frowned upon by the judges for not being ballroom enough. f-p/m were putting out strong, ballroom-y ODs (their 2000 latin and 2001 quickstep) which the judges rewarded. the italians were much stronger on the ODs, while the french trumped them on FDs. and while we're at it, the v/m-d/w rivalry seems to reflect those teams too, with one team being stronger on speed and lightness of feet, and the other on polish, lines and balletic presentation.

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I can see how your comparison could be an apt one.

That 'rivalry' really irked me and I couldn't understand why the judges couldn't seem to grasp the concept that it is easier to skate with speed when you don't have to worry about your lines and use less complex holds. It's almost as if they sometimes judge like the non-skating public who could perceive a program that is faster and more in-your-face (ie, more impressive) as the one that is more technically sound.

The question I have is that if you look at just the step sequences, is M/C really much faster than T/S? Also, if you compare the SS's of the 2, M/C go into theirs already moving while T/S's start from a standstill (which is much more difficult to gain speed -as I indicated in one of my posts last season as well). In my mind, this shows outstanding skating skills when you can gain speed from a standing position with just a couple of strokes. The question is why can't the judges recognize this or at least take this into consideration? Perhaps they need some lessons in physics, LOL.

I understand that Meryl and Charlie skated excellently, and I can also understand and accept them winning the SD. But not by two points, and not on the PCS. Much has been said about that already, so I won't repeat. I can say that I really liked Meryl and Charlie's skate/performance, but I couldn't fully appreciate it as I was so worried about Tessa and Scott - I really, really wanted them to win this for a moment there.

I am not loosing my hope about Tessa and Scott winning this whole event yet, but, at the same time, I am not hoping too much. I too think judges don't really care about the more interesting concept and better choreography of Tessa and Scott's 'Carmen'. This is not what matters to them. The only thing that will matter is how well they do their technical elements.

The positive thing for me personally - despite the not so great changes, I love Tessa and Scott's SD more and more, although in the beginning I was not quite ecstatic about it.

P.S.: The judging in the SD seems to show that judges do care about what they perceive as a better overall concept of the dance. I just think that they won't necessarily consider Tessa and Scott's 'Carmen' a better program. As with the general public and figure skating fans, surely there are judges who really like it, but just as surely there are also those who don't. I suspect that the attitude towards Meryl and Charlie's FD may be more even (although it is not among figure skating fans).

i wonder--if v/m do retire to become coaches and/or choreographers, will they work with marina? igor? or no one? if the latter, do you think we'd be able to see their students compete with marina/igor/camerlengo-krylova students? it would be a very interesting period in ice-dance, especially once v/m's students rise up the ranks.

the braid looks so natural yet sophisticated. actually, i'm shocked by Tessa's beauty in these pictures. it's like seeing a modern version of Grace Kelly or Vivien Leigh. i believe she's one of the most beautiful women ever.

..... the v/m-d/w rivalry seems to reflect those teams too, with one team being stronger on speed and lightness of feet, and the other on polish, lines and balletic presentation.

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Interesting points.

The only issue I have whenever someone points that out though is that this (IMHO) isn't a case of one team having one set of skills that the other does not. D&W might be faster than V&M but not by much. V&M have that balletic quality, posh lines but they also can compete with D&W on the overall difficulty of their footwork and lifts and the speed is comparable.

ITA with those who question what good is speed when the other factors that should be judged suffers to any degree because of it.

On paper and in a perfect world, Carmen really is capable of racking up the points. I think V&M could/should easily gain more than 1.93 points as long as they skate well tomorrow. However since we are all still being told how very close these two teams are (don't get me started on that one) even if V&M win the FD it will probably only be between something closer to .30 to .50 points. As usual Tessa and Scott get the FD but D&W get the overall competition. The judges have been doing this since this quadrennial started.

I don't even feel upset as I would have last season. My reaction to seeing the scores was more like "oh well, that's what I expected to happen."

I for one am getting tired of having to just enjoy what V&M are skating to because we know the marks won't be there. Or even if the marks do come up, it won't be enough to put them where they want to be.

Anyway, I am glad that they are skating better here (we knew they would). I hope they bring down the house with Carmen tomorrow.

ETA:
I also don't think that Giselle is better than V&M waltz. I do like Giselle but IMO while it's a different style it's not neccesarily better. I love V&M's waltz and I think it would be a shame if all of the things that V&M do so well are being cancelled out simply because Giselle might be more accessible to the crowds.

I'm not sure what there is to not get in the first place. V&M's Waltz does have a theme but even without that explanation, I can see and appreciate a top notch Waltz performance.