The Chinese are becoming more capitalistic and the U.S is charging towards socialism.

Not just China, but SE Asia and India in general. Three billion people are rushing towards more economic - and political - freedom, and we're heading right back to where they came from. Insanity, like we'll do socialism "right".

11
posted on 10/11/2008 12:26:39 PM PDT
by PugetSoundSoldier
(Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)

I travel to China on a regular basis. Believe me, if they are passing us by, it is certainly not in the area of self determination, standard of living, a clean environment, freedom of religion, or even basic conveniences.

Don’t be fooled by their bullet train imagery. All of the shiney locamotives and urban skyscrapers will never be a substitute for the freedoms we currently are blessed with in America. All of the infrastructure that you see in China is substantially financed by western capitalism, but that is where any similarity to our freedoms ends.

I will agree that unless this country awakes from its ignorant stupor, that we will certainly be racing towards socialism if the current polls are accurate.

I seriously doubt the claim by Obiwan that China is building 1 coal plant a week. Even in an unregulated environment I would have to assume that it would still take at least 1-2 years from start to finish. I also doubt they have the steel production facilities to keep up with that demand.

"Dont be fooled by their bullet train imagery. All of the shiney locamotives and urban skyscrapers will never be a substitute for the freedoms we currently are blessed with in America. All of the infrastructure that you see in China is substantially financed by western capitalism,..."

The rush to build and upgrade infrastructure is for building China's consumer base up while adding efficiency, flexibility and more variety to production. Even those of us who are morally blind will see the effective differences between Russia's pride and China's humility before long.

Financial advisors have been telling clients to move their investment banking in China, which project funds are, of course, going into China's infrastructure and cheap housing instead of mansions.

Brick, mortar, and transportation in China adds up to a tundra of oppression when the central government imposes caps on wages, salaries, family size, and a complete ban on religious freedom. If you are a westerner living or traveling throughout China on business, life is a luxurious endeavor. The vast majority of Chinese nationals, on the other hand, are slaves to this communist system of government, whose aspirations too often involve what next small appliance they will be able to purchase.

What I love most about China is its people. They are no different than us regarding their aspirations for freedom and self determination. All of the infrastructure projects in China will never be a substitute for what is truely important to the Chinese people - freedom.

Bejing and Shanghai are impressive examples of infrastructure, but I never fail to leave there with a disturbed feeling because of the obvious void that any American easliy senses when visiting there.

In America, the “consumer base” built the infrastructure and received great personal rewards and benefits as a result of their hard work.

Infrastructure built by a communist goverment with western capital still equals a captive, and oppressed consumer base.

Not just China, but SE Asia and India in general. Three billion people are rushing towards more economic - and political - freedom, and we’re heading right back to where they came from. Insanity, like we’ll do socialism “right”.

yes, many are returning HOME to India, SE Asia and China.

Yes, it is insane that the FLEEING the U.S. for what we USED TO STAND FOR.

The stubborn and ignorant don’t want to admit that or put their pointed heads where the sun refuses to shine. I suppose pride gets in the way as well.

Im not a betting man, if I was Ild bet you play left field. Just how do you make the leap to state that unions would impact high speed trains? I believe his implication was that union reg's and union attitudes would hamper the necessary efficiencies to the construction of a project such as this - as well as dramatically increase the costs...

About 2/3rds of my posts come from China. I have a nice little apartment in the Minhang district of Shanghai, and spend about 60% of my life over there.

It's not quite as restrictive as you paint it to be. Is it as open as the US? Not a chance. But it's not really much more restrictive than Europe. And if Obama and the Democrats take over, I'll bet we end up MUCH more restrictive than China.

31
posted on 10/11/2008 3:22:01 PM PDT
by PugetSoundSoldier
(Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)

"The vast majority of Chinese nationals, on the other hand, are slaves to this communist system of government,..."

That system has been moving more toward fascism, as it is in most other nations, including our own. In such a system, one can only earn a fair living by getting educated in (at high cost), licensed in and agreeing with the social desires of one's rulers. ...no men at work.

Communism, fascism, monarchy...all very centralized forms of government. And as for Chinese government, it's on the way to us, unless we get truly busy at something more than counting money from administrations of imports.

I seriously doubt the claim by Obiwan that China is building 1 coal plant a week. Even in an unregulated environment I would have to assume that it would still take at least 1-2 years from start to finish. I also doubt they have the steel production facilities to keep up with that demand.

Not from start to finish of course, but about one to three a week comes on line. So there maybe a couple of hundred currently under construction.

It's not unrealistic really. China currently has 822,000 MegaWatts (MW) of capacity (as a caparison, the US has about 980,000 MW of capacity). China wants to add another million MW. A typical coal fired plant is about 500 MW. If they put one on line every week, it would take close to 40 years to add another one million mega watts of generating capacity. They will want to do it well before then. So, it is likely that the capacity they are adding is closer to an average of about two coal fired plants a week. Along with other power generating capacities from Hydro power, nuclear, and some natural gas. From my extrapolations, they will add another million megawatts by 2020-2025. As far as steel, they produce enough. I don't know how much steel it takes to produce a coal fired plant, but as a comparison, it took 40,000 tons of steel to build the Birds Nest Stadium in Beijing. China produces over 500 million tons of steel a year. That's an equivalent to 10,000 Birds Nest Stadium. So, I don't believe steel capacity is a problem......well, it will be as they will assuredly need close to a billion tons a year within a decade.

What I love most about China is its people. They are no different than us regarding their aspirations for freedom and self determination. All of the infrastructure projects in China will never be a substitute for what is truely important to the Chinese people - freedom.

The average Chinese want freedom of course, but they also want the infrastructure. Isn't it better to enjoy freedom when there is sufficient resources to make the nation of 1.32 billion people completely mobile. Here in the US, there is sufficient transportation and housing for people to move about whenever and however they want. Even if China became a complete democracy today, there isn't enough infrastructure for ALL the people to easily and conveniently move about. So, I disagree with you, all the infrastructure that is going on over there is an ever increasing vehicle to enjoy freedom.

I thank God on a regular basis for all the infrastructure work that is going on over there.

I used to work on nuke plants back in the day as a steamfitter, which were typicaly twice the generating cappacity of a coal plant. But I am unaware of the amount of steel, ie: rebar, pipe, structural support, etc. Then you need to factor in the volume of copper for wiring and portland cement for concrete and that is a load of raw materials.

This will be the USA’s downfall when and if the country ever decides to start building this plants again, or for that matter building off shore drilling rigs and pipelines

This will be the USAs downfall when and if the country ever decides to start building this plants again, or for that matter building off shore drilling rigs and pipelines

Certain infrastructure projects in America, such as nuclear reactors, get tied up in the political wranglings of the times. But projects that don't, can be built rather quickly. Of the 980,000 MW of capacity I mentioned, about 270,000 MW is from natural gas. Almost all of them built since 1992...so in the last 16 years. That's the equivalent to 270 nuclear reactors of generating capacity or the equivalent to 540 coal fired plants, all built in less than 20 years. So, while America's nuclear program may be slowing going, other sources of energy will be used instead. It is unfortunate though, with such a head start in nuclear energy, that the US will be constructing significantly less nuclear reactors than China in the coming decades.

I also agree that all of the infrastructure development is nothing less than a good thing for the Chinese people. And for the vast majority of the 1.3 billion people, it’s still a miserable existence for a human being. Nothing more than a man made attempt at utopia.

I also agree that all of the infrastructure development is nothing less than a good thing for the Chinese people. And for the vast majority of the 1.3 billion people, its still a miserable existence for a human being. Nothing more than a man made attempt at utopia.

One of the misgivings about China's infrastructure construction is this idea that China is trying to build a utopia. That couldn't be further from the truth. We take for granted the level of conveniences we have here and China is merely trying to do the same.

What if America went through a war in which 3/4 of here airports were destroyed. And instead of flying across the continent for $500 it costs $10,000. Wouldn't you want your country to rebuild the airports as quickly as possible until the capacity of the airports were such that flights can be $500 again?

It's the same concept in China. Despite the airports built in China so far, it isn't enough to provide everyone a chance to travel by air. And it would cost several months wages. But with more airports, it could come down to a reasonable price. Same with trains, freeways, housing etc. As more are built, a greater percentage of the population will have access to them.

So, no utopia, just addressing a pragmatic need of any country that wants to develop.

Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.