I am visiting melbourne on business and scored a couple of days at the end of the trip to check out the grampians (I'm from San Francisco). Looking for a partner for those days. I will be borrowing or renting a car and leaving from Ballarat and hoping to spend 1 or 2 nights there (flight is 6:30 pm on the 14th). I can bring gear from the US but would perfer to leave a rope and tent at home. Happy to give a ride and would love to go with someone who has been there before. "Comfortable" leading up to 5.8 (16) and trying to get into 5.9's (17). Comfortable following up to 5.11 a/b (22). Hopefully those grades translate the right way :) First time climbing in australia and I heard the grampians are not to be missed! Anyone interested?

Of course if anyone wants to hit up Yosemite climbing I'm happy to host!

If you're solid on valley 5.9, you're probably good to at least Ewbank grade 25!

Seriously though, those grade comparisons are pretty close - "normal" 5.9s are more like 18 and 5.11a more like 23. Arapiles is definitely a better bet at those grades than the Grampians - so many gobsmackingly awesome routes all in one place.

I've always thought of 23 being more like 11c. A simple way to convert Australian grades into US is to simply halve the Australian grade ie. 24 is 5.12, 22 is 5.11, 20 is 5.10.... 12 is 5.6. It doesn't work so well on the higher grades however as 28 (not 26) is usually 5.13.

These grade comparisons worked between Yosemite and Arapiles. I can't comment on sport climbing areas and their softer grading.

But I agree with the comment regarding Arapiles over the Grampians. The Grampians have plenty of great cliffs, but if you only have limited time then go to Mt Arapiles. There is no better single crag in the world for climbing at the grades you want. It is also the best place to find climbing partners as there is a regular climbing scene at this time of year. I live nearby but probably won't be available to climb. I can lend you a tent, rope and guidebook if you need.

On 30/04/2013 eleddy wrote:
"Comfortable" leading up to 5.8>(16) and trying to get into 5.9's (17).

I'm struggling to get my head around being "comfortable" on one grade whilst trying to break into the next .... normally i'd say something like I'm comfortable on 20, working hard on 22-3 and trying my damnedest to be able to onsight 24. Trying to break into doesn't really start to 27.

Which is leading me to think, you should err on the easier side at Araps. Many climbers find araps to be a bit stiff at first as well, the rock being quite intricate and technical. Fortunately, it has loads of fantastic easy routes and you won't be disappointed by jumping on anything from Arachnus at 8 to Resignation at 15.

On 30/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>On 30/04/2013 eleddy wrote:>"Comfortable" leading up to 5.8>>(16) and trying to get into 5.9's (17). >>I'm struggling to get my head around being "comfortable" on one grade>whilst trying to break into the next .... normally i'd say something like>I'm comfortable on 20, working hard on 22-3 and trying my damnedest to>be able to onsight 24. Trying to break into doesn't really start to 27.>>Which is leading me to think, you should err on the easier side at Araps.>Many climbers find araps to be a bit stiff at first as well, the rock being>quite intricate and technical. Fortunately, it has loads of fantastic easy>routes and you won't be disappointed by jumping on anything from Arachnus>at 8 to Resignation at 15.

Gee Wendy, talk about being pedantic. I don't think that saying you are comfortable leading up to grade 16 but that you are wanting to break into grade 18 is unrealistic at all (which is pretty much what the original poster is saying) particularly when she also mentions that she seconds up to grade 22!

Making comparisons with yourself breaking into 27s is laughable given you have climbed one route at grade 27 after sieging the shit out of it for days. As for trying your damnedest to onsight 24 - well have you ever onsighted 24 at your home crag of Arapiles? You rarely even launch up 24s at Arapiles ground-up - they are usually top-roped and/or rap inspected with pre-placed gear. And I am guessing you wouldn't have even onsighted half the 22s you have climbed at Arapiles, yet alone the 23s.

On 30/04/2013 Cliff wrote:> eleddy it may well be wet and quite cold. Obviously a different experience,>but you may want to consider hiring a local guide and stay in Natimuk which>is nearby (no need for tent or any gear, warmer, good food, etc).> bw
Cliff,
what are you talking about? May 12-13 is much more likely to be ideal climbing weather in Grampians and Arapiles than wet. Yes, it may be wet, if you've only got 2 days that is always a chance but at this time of year it is more likely to be fine.

eleddy, as to weather, The 7 day forecasts here are fairly good so you should have a good idea 4-5 days in advance as to what the weather will be doing on 12-13th May. Google "bom forecast Horsham vic" to get a good idea of Arapiles weather and "bom forecast Stawell vic" for Grampians.
Allow a few days for responses before going down the guide route. Anyone responding is probably going to PM you rather than post openly so log into the site rather than staying anonymous. If nothing comes up, just turn up at Arapiles, you'll be able to find someone to climb with.

On 30/04/2013 simey wrote:>On 30/04/2013 pmonks wrote:>>...and 5.11a more like 23.>>I've always thought of 23 being more like 11c. A simple way to convert>Australian grades into US is to simply halve the Australian grade ie. 24>is 5.12, 22 is 5.11, 20 is 5.10.... 12 is 5.6. It doesn't work so well>on the higher grades however as 28 (not 26) is usually 5.13.

Yeah that's the rule of thumb I used after first moving here, but having now climbed here quite a bit I can say with some certainty that it's not perfectly accurate. I'd say that generally speaking 10c is about 21, 10d 22, and 11a 23, at least in California (which tends to have stiffer grades than some other states).

If anyone's in town and wants to double check my results I'd be happy to show them around some of the local crags!

[edit] Oh and of course 5.9 is all over the shop. I seem to recall a detailed post from Olbert on the topic a year or so ago.

On 30/04/2013 pmonks wrote:>On 30/04/2013 Cliff wrote:>> pmonks "5.9 as good to at least 25". In what universe? >>I take it you've never climbed in Yosemite? You should try it sometime>- it's a blast... ...particularly if you limit yourself to 5.9s only.

Thanks for all the responses. Interesting cultural diff popping up. "Comfortable " means I'm pretty confident in leading a 5.8 on trad on site with no falls. Aka if you can follow 5.8 I'm 99% sure I can set a TR for you to follow or equiv. Obviously on sport I would climb hardr. Breaking into 5.9 means I can lead them onsite but often with scared shirtless moments where an experienced belayer would be welcome, especially to talk through... moments. And yeah I climb mostly granite crack so there is always adjustments ans I start nice and easy.
Hopefully that clears things up!

Thanks for all the advice! I'm don't know much about the area at all and the trip is last minute.

On 30/04/2013 eleddy wrote:>Thanks for all the responses. Interesting cultural diff popping up. "Comfortable>" means I'm pretty confident in leading a 5.8 on trad on site with no falls.>Aka if you can follow 5.8 I'm 99% sure I can set a TR for you to follow>or equiv. Obviously on sport I would climb hardr. Breaking into 5.9 means>I can lead them onsite but often with scared shirtless moments where an>experienced belayer would be welcome, especially to talk through... moments.> And yeah I climb mostly granite crack so there is always adjustments ans>I start nice and easy. >Hopefully that clears things up!

Sounds like you should go climbing with Wendy. That is exactly the grade she is currently wanting to climb. You could lead her up a few pitches. (And she lives locally too).

I reckon this thread has become a textbook demonstration of OGCS (Optimistic Grade Conversion Syndrome).
OGCS manifests in a myriad of different ways, but is easily recognisable as sufferers will always use grade conversions to suggest that they're climbing better than they really are.

OGCS can develop even without travelling. Davidn is a good example. He's never really climbed anywhere other than around canberra, but often converts between bouldering and climbing grades, always skewing in the direction which raises the grade of the thing he just climbed (sometimes he even performs a stacked conversion, where he gets a double grade boost).

When climbers travel, things get interesting. On short trips (where no reasonable climber would suspect that they've improved), the OGCS response is to suggest that the grades at the holiday destination are soft. Therefore the grades at the climber's home crag must be stiff (this gets complicated by the fact that many holiday crags were developed by chronic OGCS sufferers, and actually are soft!).

On the other hand, when someone moves to a new destination, they start inflating the grade of their adopted home. Finding 5.11a hard? Can't be that you just suck at the local style, must be that 5.11a = 23 or 24.

On 30/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On the other hand, when someone moves to a new destination, they start>inflating the grade of their adopted home. Finding 5.11a hard? Can't be>that you just suck at the local style, must be that 5.11a = 23 or 24.

Spot on. I think PMonks needs to return and climb a few 23s and 24s at Arapiles and he certainly won't be throwing around 5.11a when discussing them. While OGCS is common, I suspect PMonks is more likely suffering from GOOT (Getting Old and Outta Touch).

And don't forget about ACOUD (Arapiles is the Centre Of the Universe Delusion), whereby some guidebook authors (who's name we won't mention) think that one's onsight grade at Araps is a complete and objective measure of climbing ability :)

On 30/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>And don't forget about ACOUD (Arapiles is the Centre Of the Universe Delusion),>whereby some guidebook authors (who's name we won't mention) think that>one's onsight grade at Araps is a complete and objective measure of climbing>ability :)

On 30/04/2013 eleddy wrote:>Thanks for all the responses. Interesting cultural diff popping up. "Comfortable>" means I'm pretty confident in leading a 5.8 on trad on site with no falls.>Aka if you can follow 5.8 I'm 99% sure I can set a TR for you to follow>or equiv. Obviously on sport I would climb hardr. Breaking into 5.9 means>I can lead them onsite but often with scared shirtless moments where an>experienced belayer would be welcome, especially to talk through... moments.> And yeah I climb mostly granite crack so there is always adjustments ans>I start nice and easy. >Hopefully that clears things up!>

That's much clearer! I was a bit worried with your first post, cause I understood just breaking into as being quite a long way away from comfortable! Hence I could imagine getting into trouble jumping onto Araps 18-9s. I regularly get scared and work hard on grades that I wouldn't describe myself as "breaking into" - I think that's just normal for climbing near your onsite limit!. Araps has great routes in the 5.8-9 range (I never find US grades translate to exactly to Australian, so that could be anything from 15 to 20! With only 2 days though .... maybe do an easy but amazing route like agamemnon, muldoon, d minor, eskimo nell, dribble, syrinx or arachnus and/or try out some uncommitting single pitches at your limit. organ pipes and left side of central gully is pretty good for that. Then if you are feeling really confident about it, try Resignation/scorpion direct/scorpion for a mindblowing day out. Make sure you have a big cam or 2. An easier amazing day up the same cliff would be resignation/ivan/blockbuster. Or try skink or oceaniod for other awesome longer (and this is only by arapiles standards!) routes that probably aren't quite as hard as scorpian (although they are the same grade!).

I actually might be able to climb on the 12th - and because I'm recovering from injury and illness, doing great moderate stuff is exactly what I'm up for. Not Scorpian though sadly - i can't do fat cracks on my shoulder yet. Get in touch closer to the date.

I reckon that Araps is a good measure of overall climbing ability when talking about 1st time visitors. But like anything else, it is specific and trainable. Locals will look better than they really are, visitors will usually find it harder than it actually is. Also, the grade gap between onsight and having prior knowledge is wider than most other crags I've been to.

>Yeah that's the rule of thumb I used after first moving here, but having>now climbed here quite a bit I can say with some certainty that it's not>perfectly accurate. I'd say that generally speaking 10c is about 21, 10d>22, and 11a 23, at least in California (which tends to have stiffer grades>than some other states).

Hey, I like this grading - running with this scale that means I was onsighting 22 in the valley, 24 in utah and squamish and 26 in the Red. Sadly, I'm not sure that reflects reality, but nevertheless, i like it!