We need support from the rank & file to win 2A battles and I for one doubt that the public at large is ready to embrace their neighbor owning a 240 Bravo...

Well said, most people don't care and while that is a shame, there are plenty of issues that I don't care about that others might currently be working their butts off to change. But many small steps are the most effective way to create change in this country. Big leaps are few and far between, that is true for both sides of most issues.

I agree, Tango. The CC issue has become a fight that IS winning, nationwide. There have even been attempts to make CA a "Shall Issue" instead of a "May Issue".

But I also see SnoMans POV too. In 1994 if more trap and skeet shooters, and hunters, had stepped up and defended the right to own Semi Autos, the ban would not have happened most likely. But "we" were factionalized and weak.

When we have our own people (Jim Zumbo, NRA Boardmember Jaoquin Jackson, etc) saying that Americans should not own AR15's, we should see that as a call to action.

Not that my opinion matters around here, but I think we should support each other.

If they suddenly declared that blackpowder "guns" would be treated like smokeless/cartridge guns, I would support the blackpowder guys in any way possible, even though I'm not into blackpowder.

There has only been a single crime committed with a legal Class 3 that I'm aware of, and that was a dirty cop. Seems to me this gives a pretty good defense to the ownership (without onerous expense) of Class 3.

Never once did I say I didn't really support him in his fight. I simply said I think we should focus on fights that we can win becuase no matter how small a win is still a win.

Look at MMA fighting a win because the guy tapped out is a win, the same as if he got blasted in the grape and KOed and the same if the guy goes all three rounds and get the decision.

OK we just made a win in VA on CC rights.

Like I have said before I wish I could have a safe full of 240B m-60 and other really cool and fun FA weapons. But I would currently have to save for 15 or 20 years. To think that the price is going to magically drop to that of a regular firearm if we open the registry is crazy. They are going to stay the same price no matter what happens.

Dam I missed this discussion was gone all weekend. But as far as CCW goes, the supporters here are right. You need to have goals that can be won and I'm proud to announce that the great State of Arizona now has a Concealed Carry provision. The Governor of Arizona this past weekend signed the bill and it will be effective in 90 days.

Now we have and will still have a CCW permit process where you attend classes and pay the state $$$ and you can CCW in most places. The state also has had Open Carry via the State Constitution. But now we will also be able to CCW without having to pay the state.

How did we do it. Got right people elected to the state legislature, a 2A governor ( that is also trying to get elected). and there you have it.

Push hard and elect the right people.

As far as the Class III discussion earlier, If the registry was to disappear, I really don't think most of the MG's would come down in price. I have 3 of them, Ruger AC556, S&W76 subgun and a Browning ANM2 Aircraft Beltfed Machinegun. Nobody makes these and my Browning hasn't been MFG since 1943. So you maybe able to buy a M16 for a couple grand, but you can also get one today for the same price if you really want one.

IMHO - Snoman wants to buy a 80 year old Thompson for $300, just like you can buy a 1966 Pontiac GTO for less than $40,000. Oh Yeah.

The irony here seems to be that we actually all DO agree on fighting for all gun rights.

When I was a kid I never thought any part of GCA '68 would be repealed. Then Pres. Reagan did away with the signature/ID part of buying ammo. That one act gave me hope. Too bad it also led to the end of new Class 3's.

And 80 years old Thompsons were not $300 in 1985. But a registered M16 was pretty affordable. Or an MP5 or Uzi. Or many others.

If we let up on our fight(s) for gun rights, the anti's will keep chipping away at them until owning guns is too big of a pain to deal with.

The media keeps referring to guns being "Not suitable for hunting..." and then we notice that more and more "Gov't" land is restricted or removed from public hunting. Does anyone else think that maybe they are trying to make hunting such a pain that nobody does it anymore? Then, the next step would be to attack gun ownership because nobody hunts any more, anyway?

CA has already seen a huge drop in the numbers of hunting licenses because we need to use lead free ammo just about everywhere and the law is so confusing to non-gun folk.

The irony here seems to be that we actually all DO agree on fighting for all gun rights.

When I was a kid I never thought any part of GCA '68 would be repealed. Then Pres. Reagan did away with the signature/ID part of buying ammo. That one act gave me hope. Too bad it also led to the end of new Class 3's.

And 80 years old Thompsons were not $300 in 1985. But a registered M16 was pretty affordable. Or an MP5 or Uzi. Or many others.

If we let up on our fight(s) for gun rights, the anti's will keep chipping away at them until owning guns is too big of a pain to deal with.

The media keeps referring to guns being "Not suitable for hunting..." and then we notice that more and more "Gov't" land is restricted or removed from public hunting. Does anyone else think that maybe they are trying to make hunting such a pain that nobody does it anymore? Then, the next step would be to attack gun ownership because nobody hunts any more, anyway?

CA has already seen a huge drop in the numbers of hunting licenses because we need to use lead free ammo just about everywhere and the law is so confusing to non-gun folk.

Anyway, giving up on one fight may doom us all in the long run.

OMG Really.

This is so not the day to be doing this.

WE ARE NOT GIVING UP ON THE DAMN FIGHT. WE ARE FIGHTING THE BATTLES THAT NEED TO BE WON NOW.

Ok, you're in front of a group at say the local PTA and you have to explain to these non-gun types why you "need" a full-auto gun. You cannot use the vague terms "it's my right", "2nd amendment", or "zombie apocalypse". What do you say to these folks to convince them you're just a normal person - that wants a full-auto weapon.

Remember, the anti's can spin you needing a full-auto and come up with terrible what-if scenarios. While you may not feel the need to justify your actions or desires, we NEED the support or at least the tacit approval of non-gun types to achieve the freedoms we desire. We must focus on battles that we can fight and win now. We've made good strides in the past few years but if we grab for to much to fast we can easily turn folks against us. IMHO, the vast majority of non-gun folks still fear guns and nothing is more scary to them than the full-auto assault rifes that are always mentioned (in error) on the evening news...

Ok, you're in front of a group at say the local PTA and you have to explain to these non-gun types why you "need" a full-auto gun. You cannot use the vague terms "it's my right", "2nd amendment", or "zombie apocalypse". What do you say to these folks to convince them you're just a normal person - that wants a full-auto weapon.

Remember, the anti's can spin you needing a full-auto and come up with terrible what-if scenarios. While you may not feel the need to justify your actions or desires, we NEED the support or at least the tacit approval of non-gun types to achieve the freedoms we desire. We must focus on battles that we can fight and win now. We've made good strides in the past few years but if we grab for to much to fast we can easily turn folks against us. IMHO, the vast majority of non-gun folks still fear guns and nothing is more scary to them than the full-auto assault rifes that are always mentioned (in error) on the evening news...

Jesus - Don't go off on this deep end. Owning Full autos are not different than owning a cellar of Old Wine. Yes the Anti's can go off, but for 20+ years, they haven't figured out what those laws are. It takes a majority to change Post laws. Remember to vote this Nov. and make it count ! - talk to your neighbors, and make sure they vote right. Thats what we have to do.

I have no issues at all discussing gun control or machine guns at PTA meetings or anywhere else. Most people have been misled about guns and don't have a strong opinion against them.

If I explained that legally owned FA's are highly regulated and the owners thoroughly checked out by uncle sugar for months, they would probably be surprised. And that there has only ever been one crime committed with one.

If I explain that the reason FA are not completely illegal is because the court was afraid that, as military style arms they were protected by the 2A, they could be taxed but not banned, people start paying attention.

A calm, rational discussion that points out the facts of gun ownership is hard for an Anti to counter effectively. I've never had a conversation with an Anti, and had them come out on top. Never. All they have is emotion. I've had them storm away pissed, but never win.

My office is on the west side of L.A. Most people assume that the hoity toity westside folk are all anti gun. Wrong. Last month I sent an email to everyone in my company to see if any of them wanted to go to the range. Not a single person responded with anger or negativity. Many were shocked, but very curious. Several politely declined. But 32 of them ended up accompanying me to the range.

We were there from 08:25 to 18:45. I had a rabidly anti gun girl come and bring her dad. He is English and thinks (thought!) all guns should be destroyed. They had a blast, and want to take some classes. He could not wait to tell all his lefty friends that he went shooting and loved it. Hmm...Another guy had his 9yo son hammering away with a rented SigSauer P229 in .40SW. They are both hooked. A woman brought her husband and now they want private lessons and 2 guns. Another wants a gun and lessons. The list goes on....

And now everyone is asking me to do it again next month, and saying they will bring more people.

I still have about 20 guns left to clean, just in time to dirty them up again, but do not care. Converting people is awesome.

So, I have no problem calmly discussing any form of gun control with people.

I take exception to your exception. If you have the funds - you can buy a machine gun right now. The folks in Chicago, NYC, and (many in) California (among others) CANNOT carry regardless of how much money they have.

You just don't have the $$$, these folks are blocked by the law - now which is more important?

We can To in Cali... as long as our CLEO approves it. there's one county that i'm aware of, that acts as a Shall Issue... the rest well... Orange County was getting sued, because the CLEO refused to recognize cause to issue it....
And for open carry, well, it only takes me a half second extra to load it.... sorta.
and that half second MIGHT be my life....
Okay so that was sorta a satirical stance.

I am moving to AZ or WA right after the 2012 elections. I wanna evict Fienstein(lol, it wants me to correct her name to Frankenstein... how awesome) and Boxer first.
How about we set our sights on repealing the GCA of 1968, and knock everything out piece by piece on the ascension. We take the same "stance" as the Liberals have since the way early 1900s, and don't stop until we succeed.
Remember, it's really not Obamacare, because this medical care overhaul isn't even HALF of what Roosevelt ever dreamed of.