angola wrote:So, seven of the top eight seeds reached the quarterfinals.

I guess the rankings were pretty spot on then.

Nope, not yet at least. We're still 20-19 over BOFM with 2 games still very undecided.

The rankings were okay, but I wouldn't go near spot on. #24 beat #9 for starters. No way that should happen in a 40 game challenge, and that's on the rankings, TFFS showed before this they're at least a top 20 clan.

Ahh, you are very right. I was thinking of the top eight only.

And TFFS is very good. If they had more depth, they'd be a top 10 clan in my opinion.

Last edited by angola on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

You know, if this really is CC's thinking, then any of these larger matches need to start being rank discriminatory. Maybe next year's cup should be limited only to the top 8 seed perceptions.

Really pisses me off to have a medal denied or delayed because my clan is considered to have FARMED for a medal just because we joined a larger skirmish series.

stahrgazer wrote:

chemefreak wrote:

Dako wrote:It was not #4 vs #34 because our rankings are not official and are based on perceptions. So they do not mean the strength of the clan, they mean only the seeding position. Yes, they are reflection the strength, but it is not a precise reflection at all.

These #s are actually based on the unofficial ladder, not perception. With a few hundred challenges on it now, it is actually looking pretty accurate. Now, even if perception were built in, who here seriously thinks that OSA vs LoW was an evenly weighted war or "fair fight" (besides LoW and OSA)?

Or is this still you TOFU guys sore about not getting medals for the T4C challenge? Btw, I probably wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I don't care how much any formula is tweaked for that one, I don't see that ever happening.

No, it's about ridiculous arbitrary changes in rules based on, "because I said so."

It's about being penalized because Chuuuuck welcomed more teams in his matches than the other cup welcomed in theirs.

It's about, just because a clan is new, does not mean the PLAYERS in the clan are new to CC or to clans or clan wars (the Pack, in the Newcomer's cup, is an example of a "new clan" led by experienced clanners.)

It's about the fact that the initial annoucement about clan war medals saying NOTHING about any possible 'farming' problem; just a requirement for number of games.

It's about the fact that Chuuuck didn't make those 'seedings' based on a ladder, he took votes from all the participating clans, which is PERCEPTION not "unofficial ladder."

It's about the fact that ALL, not just SOME of these Cup skirmishes meet the requirements for medals.

It's also about the fact that Legends of War didn't join a Conqueror's Cup skirmish so we could "farm" and by denying our rightful awards for winning against first OSA and then Legion, you are implying that that's what we did. And you're implying that everyone else who had to play in a play-in round (that LoW didn't want to have to play, by the way) and 16-games round joined because they got a chance to "farm."

stahrgazer wrote:From Clan Medals thread.You know, if this really is CC's thinking, then any of these larger matches need to start being rank discriminatory. Maybe next year's cup should be limited only to the top 8 seed perceptions.

Really pisses me off to have a medal denied or delayed because my clan is considered to have FARMED for a medal just because we joined a larger skirmish series.

What?You guys did not get a medal, did anybody else in the same round? i am a bit confused here. care to clarify?

stahrgazer wrote:From Clan Medals thread.You know, if this really is CC's thinking, then any of these larger matches need to start being rank discriminatory. Maybe next year's cup should be limited only to the top 8 seed perceptions.

Really pisses me off to have a medal denied or delayed because my clan is considered to have FARMED for a medal just because we joined a larger skirmish series.

What?You guys did not get a medal, did anybody else in the same round? i am a bit confused here. care to clarify?

Other Cup series seed top v bottom and got medals.

Answer given for that is because none of the players in the other cup series is elite enough to "be considered farming" and yet, according to Conquer Club rules, farming is the systematic attempt to take advantage, and one or two games isn't supposed to be evidence; taking that to clan wars, one or two wars shouldn't be considered evidence of farming either.

Only in someone's arbitrary delusions would participation in a series be considered farming that was open only to experienced clans, experience being defined as having completed two wars.

By denying or delaying these medals, you imply that LoW and the other top clans joined a larger series in order to farm.

Thus, you imply that the Conqueror's Cup should be renamed, "Farmer's Cup."

To prevent that, Chuuuck should change the 3rd annual to allow only the top 16 clans.

Then again, since whatever roster is being used to determine 'farming' is, by mod words, "unofficial" it shouldn't be used at all.

"Farming" is not legal on the site. Any clan who farms shouldn't just not get a medal, they should be given disciplinary action.

If it's not "farming" enough to warrant disciplinary action, then it's not farming, is it?

But if it is farming, then Chuuuck needs to change the cup to prevent this illegal action from taking place.

And while we're at it, no experienced clan should ever accept a newer clan's challenge anymore; Farming is illegal on the site so if they're farming to accept, then they should refuse the challenge.

You are mixing up the site rule of farming noobs with clanfarming. 2 completely different things, I would have thought you knew that.No clanmedals will be given if a clanwar is deemed unfair in the eyes of the TD. It is assumed that any game but the finals or the final 4 is not going to recieve a clanwar medal. Try to compare it with a multi event tournament. You can only get a medal for actually winning the damm thing. If you won an underlying tournament that awards you the finals spot, you do not also get another medal for winning the finals

Well I don't give a monkey's wank about medals myself, but does anyone think any of the last 16 matchups was a clan farming job?Any of the last 8? Please explain which clans and why. BOTFM if they beat TOFU? 'tis farming?

nippersean wrote:Well I don't give a monkey's wank about medals myself, but does anyone think any of the last 16 matchups was a clan farming job?Any of the last 8? Please explain which clans and why. BOTFM if they beat TOFU? 'tis farming?

I can't hear you over the sound of my combine harvester. Can you speak up?

nippersean wrote:Well I don't give a monkey's wank about medals myself, but does anyone think any of the last 16 matchups was a clan farming job?Any of the last 8? Please explain which clans and why. BOTFM if they beat TOFU? 'tis farming?

I can't hear you over the sound of my combine harvester. Can you speak up?

lol, we should get 1 for LOTZ tho, i'm sure this will be sorted shortly, hopefully before Stahr posts again, but LOW vs TSM in a 61 game clan cup challenge - it doesn't count as a clan challenge? Please explain.

SirSebstar wrote:You are mixing up the site rule of farming noobs with clanfarming. 2 completely different things, I would have thought you knew that.No clanmedals will be given if a clanwar is deemed unfair in the eyes of the TD. It is assumed that any game but the finals or the final 4 is not going to recieve a clanwar medal. Try to compare it with a multi event tournament. You can only get a medal for actually winning the damm thing. If you won an underlying tournament that awards you the finals spot, you do not also get another medal for winning the finals

Then the final 8 and final 4 aren't getting clan war medals, but a tournament medal for the conqueror's cup?

That's the only thing that makes sense if you're pulling this horse patooey

and since I never EVER saw an official definition of "clanfarming" it's horse patooey anyway. but if there is one? it should be in accordance with site rules for other types of farming

otherwise, why the f* should any top clan want to be bothered with 41- plus skirmishes against peons since it's not recognized?

Oh, and if that's the case? then any of those "wins" those top clans make should not count in any win percentage for any ranking purposes whatsoever.

But which ranking system is being used? A not-too-long-ago news thread discussed not one, not two, not three, but four EXISTING rank systems and an additional one being evaluated/created because none of those other four were deemed worthy enough.

Perspective again.

It's my perspective that this whole thing is a crock.

Especially on a site that CLAIMS they don't want "rank bias"

"Clan farming" should be defined similarly to "noob farming" - inappropriate if done repeatedly; innocent if just giving some new clans a swing at the experienced fellas.

and should never have been applied to serial skirmishes.

And, your assessment of only giving top 4 or winner a medal is in the garbage when at the same time, you look, and a different "clan tournament" series is being given medals for ALL rounds.

Existing interpretations are full of reverse-Rank bias. Newcomers can earn clan war medals for clan tournaments, ALL rounds (they have, go look!), but participants in a series that's less discriminatory (but still requires EXPERIENCED clans) cannot.

(THOTA, did you forget to bags on your horses during the last parade? I'm seeing a lot of horsesh*t all over the place and wonder where it came from )

p.s. OSA had a chance to beat us. Slim perhaps, but at least three of the games they lost (probably more, but I was personally in 3 so know what happened in those) was primarily due to one of their members deadbeating (which overcame drop and early dice effects and resulted in Legends taking the games after all). So what if they'd won, would they have gotten a medal? They would've deserved it, wouldn't they?

p.p.s. nippersean, I hear that things "might" be sorted by the end of June.

Meanwhile, there's still this existing inconsistency in determining what occurs re: clan war medals with "serial clan tournaments" and that shouldn't be.

nippersean wrote:Well I don't give a monkey's wank about medals myself, but does anyone think any of the last 16 matchups was a clan farming job?Any of the last 8? Please explain which clans and why. BOTFM if they beat TOFU? 'tis farming?

I can't hear you over the sound of my combine harvester. Can you speak up?

lol, we should get 1 for LOTZ tho, i'm sure this will be sorted shortly, hopefully before Stahr posts again, but LOW vs TSM in a 61 game clan cup challenge - it doesn't count as a clan challenge? Please explain.

It does doesn't it?I think it was only the first couple of rounds that weren't applicable for medals.

stahrgazer wrote:And, your assessment of only giving top 4 or winner a medal is in the garbage when at the same time, you look, and a different "clan tournament" series is being given medals for ALL rounds.

Existing interpretations are full of reverse-Rank bias. Newcomers can earn clan war medals for clan tournaments, ALL rounds (they have, go look!), but participants in a series that's less discriminatory (but still requires EXPERIENCED clans) cannot.

Totally different scenario. The Newcomers tournament is designed for new clans to flex their muscles a bit. Giving them medals for victories there makes sense, not least of which because since they are all new clans, rank should most likely be pretty close to even, while the same is not true at all in this tournament.

No slight intended towards Newcomers, but that is kinda like comparing trophy systems between Little League and the Majors. Different setup, different scenario, plausible different rule set.

Not necessarily siding with either group here, I personally am still neutral on this topic, but just wanted to throw that thought out there for your consideration stahrgazer.

stahrgazer wrote:And, your assessment of only giving top 4 or winner a medal is in the garbage when at the same time, you look, and a different "clan tournament" series is being given medals for ALL rounds.

Existing interpretations are full of reverse-Rank bias. Newcomers can earn clan war medals for clan tournaments, ALL rounds (they have, go look!), but participants in a series that's less discriminatory (but still requires EXPERIENCED clans) cannot.

Totally different scenario. The Newcomers tournament is designed for new clans to flex their muscles a bit. Giving them medals for victories there makes sense, not least of which because since they are all new clans, rank should most likely be pretty close to even, while the same is not true at all in this tournament.

No slight intended towards Newcomers, but that is kinda like comparing trophy systems between Little League and the Majors. Different setup, different scenario, plausible different rule set.

Not necessarily siding with either group here, I personally am still neutral on this topic, but just wanted to throw that thought out there for your consideration stahrgazer.

And the Conqueror's Cup is intended for experienced clans to flex their muscles a bit. NOT a totally different scenario.

So again.. you're saying that because Ccup chose to not be quite as discriminatory as the other cup series, it should be treated as worse.

"MInor leagues" deserve a medal for wins, but "Major leagues" don't.

But last I knew, anyone "good enough" to play in a Major League ball game got the same rewards for wins no matter how far down on the scale some of their opponents were.

LoW didn't beg to have to play in play-in rounds, you know. We weren't chomping at the bit to wipe some lesser-ranked-but-experienced-enough-for-Major-leagues clans out of the competition. We grudgingly agreed to do so when it worked out as it did (when a few extra clans were deemed experienced enough, "Major League" enough to enter) which meant we were required to do play-ins as well as rounds of 16.

So on CC, clans who agree to participate in the (first 2, anyway) rounds of "Major Leagues" are farmers if we win.

yup, the fertilizer is getting real deep, no wonder they want to label so many farmers to spread it

Edit: and, nippersean? and Leehar? No. Unless the rules change, you'll be FARMERS to beat us in the quarter-finals, and as FARMERS you won't deserve a medal for beating clan 4 when you're clan 3... only the semi and finals are currently targeted for medals in the CCup (despite ALL rounds being given medals in Newcomer cup).. likewise, if we beat you, we'll be FARMERS to have beaten the clan ranked over us. (Because it's the "anti farming" rule that got applied behind sealed doors to prevent awarding all rounds of the CCup skirmishes any clan war medals.)

Last edited by stahrgazer on Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

AoC faced VDLL in the play-in round, they have been around longer than we have, so I don't think that can be called farming.

TFFS gave us a good battle, that they could have won, yet they would have had nothing to show for it (unless they went on to beat THOTA).

AoC haven't bothered with any challenges lately, because of our interests in the league and cup. So if we are playing all of these 41 game match ups for nothing, I'm wondering if it's going to be worth participating next year.

Yeah, I don't buy the excuse that we are given. We don't get to choose our opponents in the cup so therefore none of the games can be called competitive? These challenges are more competitive and interesting than most of the other wars that are being played. If you really want to say that a few challenges in the first round are too loopsided, so be it. But disqualifying all challenges up to the final 8 or finalist or whatever you are doing now... that's just nonsense.

For those that are perhaps a bit late to the party and maybe missed the discussion from 10 pages ago, all these points and more seemed to have been raised already and seemingly there is an effort on the CD's part to adapt their medal requirements so that events such as this one can get medals for those deserving of them. I assume the cla reps would be more in the loop with regards to why it was previously decided that the first 2 rounds were not medal-worthy, but I personally feel there is good hope that we can receive such medals from what has been told to us.

Therefore, hopefully we can all wait for the new guidelines that the cd's will seemingly unveil shortly before tearing it to shreds, and that while some here will obviously continue ranting and raving as they have seemingly made a hobby off, others will be more willing to show the virtue of patience which seems to be a rare commodity of late.

Leehar wrote:For those that are perhaps a bit late to the party and maybe missed the discussion from 10 pages ago, all these points and more seemed to have been raised already and seemingly there is an effort on the CD's part to adapt their medal requirements so that events such as this one can get medals for those deserving of them. I assume the cla reps would be more in the loop with regards to why it was previously decided that the first 2 rounds were not medal-worthy, but I personally feel there is good hope that we can receive such medals from what has been told to us.

Therefore, hopefully we can all wait for the new guidelines that the cd's will seemingly unveil shortly before tearing it to shreds, and that while some here will obviously continue ranting and raving as they have seemingly made a hobby off, others will be more willing to show the virtue of patience which seems to be a rare commodity of late.

I might agree with you, Leehar, except for this:

These cd's have known for months that they had made this decision, and apparently very few others did.

Why, one of those very cd's is OFFENDED that their past ruling implies we've farmed them for beating them, so offended he made a reportable remark in our thread.

and that's one point.. while they've made this arbitrary ruling AND LET IT STAND - it's OFFENSIVE to those on either side.and another point is, their ruling isn't being consistently applied when you look at two cup challenges side by side.

You see, while you're busy "showing patience" for events such as this to get medals, there's ALREADY an event such as this GETTING medals without delays.

Inconsistency and offensiveness deserve a bit of rant.. especially since apparently NOT everyone knew.

stahrgazer wrote:These cd's have known for months that they had made this decision, and apparently very few others did.

Why, one of those very cd's is OFFENDED that their past ruling implies we've farmed them for beating them, so offended he made a reportable remark in our thread.

Again, your report was ridiculous in the context of a clan challenge thread and my reaction had nothing to do with being a CD.

Again, the agreement with the tournament organizer was Top 8. Updating the CCup2 thread to reflect this change from the first cup was not the CDs job. The danger of farming in the play-in round was just one aspect of an overall decision to wait on medals for this particular event. There was never a determination that all challenges were farming.

I personally don't care what you all decide to do. If you ask my opinion, I think every war here deserves a medal because it encourages clans to play everyone and ultimately comes up with some very competitive matchups.

But, like I said, I don't care.

What amazes me, is that you all don't get what is causing all of the problems. You are better off saying nothing than saying, "we are talking about it, changes are coming soon." If you haven't learned anything from this site, then let me give you a lesson in Conquer Club public opinion 101. Anything going on behind closed doors is a no-no. Just be straight forward about your intentions and what you are thinking and let the public weigh in on it. Then make a reasonable executive decision and you get much less complaints because it is transparent.

When you appear mischievous and authoritative, then everyone assumes you are doing what isn't in their best interest and I see no real reason to go against popular opinion. This site is here for the customers, when you aren't doing what the majority of the customers want, then you shouldn't be serving this site.