It's important to note that despite being 10 years older, Wilt outplayed Kareem in 7 of 11 post-season games. In the 1971 Western Conference Finals, Wilt averaged 22.0 points, 18.8 rebounds, and held Kareem to a FG % of .481. In the last 4 games of the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt blocked 33 shots, and held Kareem to a FG % of .414. Even in his mid-30's, Wilt could still be a dominant force.

I saw Wilt play as a laker when i was kid falling in love with basketball. Went to about 5-8 games a year. By that time 70-72 Wilt was a monster shot blocker and rebounder (think Mutumbo) but wasn't the offensive force he was earlier in his career. By design as i think he was asked by the coaching staff to think like a defensive anchor.

Kareem seemed at the time to me easily the best player on the court and those matchups w milwaukee were my favorite games. Those and the knicks...with Phil Jackson and all his awkwardness as a player. He was Rambis before Rambis was Rambis.

I swear for every shot Wilt blocked, he changed maybe 2-4. Dude was a beast. Shaq before Shaq was Shaq. Wilt also never fouled out of a game and was one of the original headband guys.

Loved Wilt. Can even remember reading a biography about him when i was in the hospital a few days as a kid

Praying for 1. Some Cohesion (Ill fitting parts with young bucks, new guys, and those playing for next contracts may muck things up all season) 2. Better Coaching, No More Tanking (Last season was more of the latter but not sure how much of the former we can count on. Walton with something to prove this season as much as any Laker player) 3. Rookie Watch (Hoping Lonzo outshines his daddy (ROTY??), and Kuzma finds minutes and makes a push for all rook 2nd team).

I'll take Kareem in his prime over 99.9% of everyone. That includes Wilt. But it's close.

And Kareem held Wilt to 45% when Wilt had shot 54% that year. The Bucks also beat us 4-1 that year...

So it really wasn't so one sided and Wilt didn't exactly out play Kareem.

In all of their h2h matches, Wilt held Kareem to 46% shooting and WIlt shot 52%. Although Kareem had a much higher ppg (31 to 16), Wilt averaged more rebounds than him. This is when Wilt is older and is towards the ending oh his Kareem, while Kareem was about to go into his prime/in his prime.

Stating that a prime Kareem was better than a prime Wilt is absurd. Wilt Chamberlain has the greatest T.O.P. (e.g., Total Offensive Production) in regular AND post-season history. T.O.P. is a combination of points, rebounds, and assists. Wilt's T.O.P. in the regular season is 57.4 and 51.2 in the post-season. Wilt is the only player in history with a T.O.P. of 50 or more in BOTH the regular and post-season.

Outside of free throw shooting, Kareem did NOTHING better than Wilt. Chamberlain was stronger, faster, jumped higher, a far better rebounder, better passer, better shot blocker, and a more prolific scorer. I hate to break it to Majesty, but according to every account of the 1971 Western Conference Finals, Wilt outplayed Kareem in 4 of the 5 games. In game 5 of that series, the BUCKS crowd gave Wilt a standing ovation when he came out of the game late in the 4th quarter. Kareem confirms that this occurred in his book GIANT STEPS.

In game 3 of the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt blocked 10 shots, and held Kareem scoreless in the last 11 minutes of the game. In Game 5, Wilt blocked 11 shots, grabbed 26 rebounds, and dished out 6 assists. In Game 6, Wilt scored 20 points on 8-12 from the floor, grabbed 24 rebounds, and blocked 9 shots.

Whether it be in their primes or head to head match-ups when it really mattered, Wilt was clearly the better player. Kareem has more rings, but that is a TEAM honor, and Wilt's two championship squads are considered all-time great teams. Why, exactly? Was it due to Jerry West? Hal Greer? Gail Goodrich? Chet Walker? Nope. It was due to the presence of the most dominant player in NBA history.

In addition to the fact that Wilt was a decade older than Kareem, it's important to note that the two giants only played ONE game against each other prior to Wilt tearing the patella tendon in his knee.

Wilt was one of the few athletes in pro sports history to suffer a significant knee injury and come back to play in the same season. In the 1970 NBA Finals, Wilt became the only player in NBA Finals history to average 20 points, 20 rebounds, and shoot 60 percent from the floor.

A year after suffering that knee injury, the 34 year old Chamberlain outplayed the 24 year old Abdul-Jabbar in 4 of the 5 games in the 1971 Western Conference Finals.

Wilt Chamberlain captured the battle of the seven-footers, but soaring "Captain Marvel" powered the Milwaukee Bucks to the Western Conference title yesterday in the National Basketball Association playoffs.

"Captain Marvel" is Greg Smith, the Buck's 6 foot 5 inch forward who is considered long on defense, but short on offense.

Chamberlain, the veteran Laker center, continued his dominance outscoring the Bucks center, 23-20, and blocked six shots while Alcindor slapped away three would-be baskets.

But it was Chamberlain, the visitor to Milwaukee with the foreboding visage, who captured the heart of the 10,746 Milwaukee fans who crammed the Milwaukee arena. When he left the floor with 1:54 left in the game, the entire arena stood and cheered the often maligned center of the Lakers. "That was nice of them--very nice." Chamberlain said.

Stating that a prime Kareem was better than a prime Wilt is absurd. Wilt Chamberlain has the greatest T.O.P. (e.g., Total Offensive Production) in regular AND post-season history. T.O.P. is a combination of points, rebounds, and assists. Wilt's T.O.P. in the regular season is 57.4 and 51.2 in the post-season. Wilt is the only player in history with a T.O.P. of 50 or more in BOTH the regular and post-season.

I hate to break it to Majesty, but according to every account of the 1971 Western Conference Finals, Wilt outplayed Kareem in 4 of the 5 games. In game 5 of that series, the BUCKS crowd gave Wilt a standing ovation when he came out of the game late in the 4th quarter. Kareem confirms that this occurred in his book GIANT STEPS.

Really?

Let's look shall we ? 4 of the 5 games? I think you're embellishing. First let's go over the 70-71 matchup

But lets go back further, lets go through their FIRST matchup in 69-70.

Wilts team emerged victorious. What should be very apparent to you is that they are pretty evenly matched, what should also be apparent is that Kareem's team relied on him for more shots along this period which is understandable considering the weapons Wilt had, not to mention the Bucks reliance on Kareem as a scorer, not all of these were stopped by Wilt primarily, but I wish I had the film for it, unfortunately youtube has failed me. But I'll torrent it later and make a video of each of their matchups for you when I can

Anyway, thje Lakers won this one, Wilt got the better here on the young rookie.

Wilt is one of the best rebounders of all time and this is no mistake, getting a triple double in this game and blocking Kareem 6 times. It was an amazing performance against Kareem. Yet his team was not victorious. Still amazing stats by two greats, Kareem gets the win, but Wilt has the better individual matchup. What is ALSO apparent is how many more shots Kareem had as compared to Wilt, considering that magical Lakers season and the weapons they had they could attack from everywhere, the Bucks relied primarily on Kareem, when was the last time you saw a center get 32 shots? Again, it was a good performance.

Yet Kareem held Wilt to 35% shooting and Wilt held Kareem to 41% shooting so it wasn't as "one sided" as you would have people to believe.

Kareem dominated Wilt again but the Lakers came away from the victory, unfortunately Kareems blocks aren't on record sadly. Mostly because stats wise blocks weren't kept track of till the 73-74 season so all you have to go on is newspaper articles. Let's keep going

Kareem dominated this matchup again. Unknown how many blocks were in this game, what was known was Kareem blocking WIlt twice and overall dominating this matchup again while having to take 10 more shots than Wilt did, in another victory.

Kareem won this matchup. Wilt was always a great shot blocker and rim protector even blocking Kareem 3 times, but ultimately couldn't stop him at the end of the day. Kareem won this matchup and the game

This one was more of a Chamberlain performance!!! Wilt blocked many shots, it isn't on record how many. But he bested Kareem on rebounding here as well, and shots taken too as they went to him more than they had been. The Bucks won, but I'll give an edge to Chamberlain in this matchup. Although kareem bested him in assists here and passing as Wilt had none this game which lead to that loss and shouldn't be discounted.

Again, great performance by both, Kareem shoots the higher percentage on less shots here as well but the Lakers take this one, Kareem beats Chamberlain in assists once more, but the Lakers take home this one as Wilt takes down 5 more rebounds and has more blocks. A close one, but Wilt gets this matchup.

And now you're exposed for embellishing a bit. Wilt had a great enough career he doesn't need you building him up any further. Obviously Kareem dominated the heck out of him in this matchup. 4 out of 5 eh? kareem bested him in points, rebound and assists. Too bad blocked shots weren't recorded this game as well. But yeah, Kareem obviously bested Wilt again.

The Bucks win the series here, but the matchup between Chamberlain and Kareem is in full effect, both beating the other in different categories, but what is most notorious is Wilt blocking Kareem 5 of his 6 blocks, which is the famous clip of the skyhook being stopped. I can give this matchup to Wilt. So 3-2 of these 5 games and EACH was a close matchup save 1 and the one sided one was Kareem over Wilt. let's not forget Kareem was only in his 2nd year in the league, his sophomore year. But he held his own against one of the greatest centers of all time and a lot of the matchups were close. But the way you make it sound was that Wilt was just dominating Kareem around every corner. A shame someone actually has to bring up what actually happened. I love Wilt but you don't need to come across as elitist and attempt to build him up cause he didn't need it and as shown, it wasn't at ALL as one sided as you tried to lead everyone to believe.

NOW let's break it down even further as I'm not finished with you yet.

In game 3 of the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt blocked 10 shots, and held Kareem scoreless in the last 11 minutes of the game. In Game 5, Wilt blocked 11 shots, grabbed 26 rebounds, and dished out 6 assists. In Game 6, Wilt scored 20 points on 8-12 from the floor, grabbed 24 rebounds, and blocked 9 shots.

Alright I'm gonna get to your Western Conference Finals in a bit.. BUT let's break down that season. Kareem's third year. The year he averaged 34/16 is the year a majority consider to be when he was hitting his peak and hitting his prime, and since that's the year Wilt got cheered in and you obviously only brought up ONE game between them. Why? I'll tell you why. Cause a majority of the time when in Kareem's 3rd year, he kicked Wilt's rear.

Wilt of course was the awesome rebounder, that is something that never went away throughout the course of his career, but Kareem outplayed him everywhere else in this matchup, Wilt didn't get much shots and there wasn't a thing that Wilt could do to stop him. Kareem was at his peak and the torch was to be passed. Lakers won though.

Again , there's nothing more that need be said, Kareem dominated him here, Chamberlain was an awesome rebounder but by this point it was obvious who the better player was. Lakers won this time though. But head to head, Kareem dominated.

One sided again in Kareems favor, however Wilt remained a prolific and awesome rebounder till the very end of his career. Kareem got more shots as was needed by his team but by the end of Kareem's second year, he who had been on more or less even terms with Wilt the year before, completely surpassed him by the 3rd and dominated him everywhere except rebounding and like I said, Wilt kept his prolific rebounding till the very end. But notice, the Lakers still win but like you said that's a TEAM thing right? So we're eliminating that I guess.

NOW let's tear apart that Western Conference Finals where you oh so slyly brought up ONE game trying to push a point.

Blocks weren't kept track of, but we see who dominated here. This was probably one of the most one sided they ever had in their playoffs head to head and AGAIN it was in Kareems favor. Holding Wilt to 3-12 shooting among other things, but Wilt kept the rebounding as that was all he had left on Kareem by this point. After his sophomore year, Kareem at his peak, his 3rd year and beyond was unstoppable, even by someone as great as Wilt.

Ah game three.. the one you made sound so one sided in Wilt's favor. When in actuality it wasn't anything of the sort. Kareems blocks were never on record for this game so we can't match those up, but he beat Wilt everywhere else while Wilt only went 1-3. Why didn't you talk about Kareem holding Wilt to only 3 shot attempts? Because it would have hurt your argument. Why didn't you mention Kareem beat him everywhere else? Cause you thought it would hurt your argument. It would have, and guess who is using it now?

Game 4, once again, Kareem dominates Wilt in every facet INCLUDING blocking, oh but Wilt had one more assist... Bucks win this game too but we're going by head to heads right? Kareem dominated this one too. No wonder you only mentioned one game, which I then above showed Kareem beat him head to head too. Moving on to game 5.

Same pattern, although Wilt got more rebounds and assists. Kareem bested him, this wasn't a close matchup, despite Wilts blocks, there was nothing close about it. Lakers won though and Wilt's defense shouldn't be discounted and won't be. But yeah, it was obvious who was better at this point.

Kareem bested him in this game too in the head to head. But I was surprised that you didn't just say "IN game 6 Wilt blocked Kareem 3 times and stole the ball twice as the Lakers won the championship from Kareem's Bucks!! He was the guy!!" and then neglect to mention that Kareem dropped 37/25 on Wilts head as well as 8 assists and nearly a triple double, and his blocks weren't recorded. But of course that would have hurt your argument then wouldn't it.

I should stop here... I REALLY REALLY should... but let's have some more fun I'm just gonna post the matchups

The final matchup. Kareem holding Wilt to 0 points, the most one sided of all their matchups in my opinion aside from the

It's pretty obvious by now that their matchups were NOT as one sided as you tried to make them out to be and you DELIBERATELY held back on vital information to further try to push your point and agenda. That doesn't work with me as I pointed it out in the numerous stats placed above.

Kareem 2nd season him and Wilt were more or less even, in the regular season matchups and the playoffs, 99.9% of the time after that Kareem wiped the floor with him. That is no disrespect to Wilt, but you wanted to build him up to be Superman that slayed Kareem every single time and just couldn't be stopped and then only brought up SELECTIVE stats to try to make it seem like Wilt just dominated him in the head to head. I could also break down how Oscar Robertson took some of those rebounds from Kareem but I think I've made my point.

So I decided to lay EVERYTHING out just so everyone can see just how you TRIED to win your argument and how I tore it apart piece by piece and stat by stat. There was no need to try to act elitist about my opinion when I SAID it was close. Nope.. you had to go act elitist and build up Wilt with your own embellishments and selective stat finding. Well I laid it out here for all to see. Hopefully the next time we debate you won't try that again

Now sit down son!!

Edited by Majesty, October 03, 2013 - 09:12 PM.

"Bryant had come to rage against the idea that Howard's clownish disposition could overtake the locker room, the Lakers' culture, and had warned Howard that he would never, ever let it happen."

Wilt was right there withKareem in his twilight years. Wilt in his prime would be too much for Kareem. Kareem would get his....at 46%. While, Wilt would be putting up the same or more ppg as Kareem on 50%+.

MAJESTY: I would ask that you read my posts in their entirety, stop concocting mythical arguments attributed to me, and stick to formulating rebuttals to my main talking points. On this thread, my points of emphasis are as follows.

1) A comparison of the skills and resume of a prime Wilt and Kareem.

2) A comparison of their lone match-up prior to Wilt suffering a severe knee injury in 1969.

3) A comparison of their head to head match-ups in the playoffs.

You didn't comment on the comparisons of the two giants in their primes, but stated that in their lone match-up in 1969, the two were "pretty evenly matched." I never stated that Wilt dominated Kareem in that match-up, but the stat line and outcome of the game clearly demonstrates that Wilt outplayed Kareem. Wilt scored more points, dished out more assists, grabbed more rebounds, blocked more shots, had a much higher FG %, and the Lakers won the game.

Prior to the 1969-1970 season, coach Joe Mullaney asked Wilt to become the focal point of the Laker offense, and Wilt responded by averaging 33 points a game before injuring his knee in the 9th game of the year. Rather than provide a salient rebuttal to my commentary regarding their playoff match-ups, you decided to conflate ALL of their match-ups from 1970-1973.

After reading page after page of regular season and playoff comparisons, my first thought was that you put a whole lotta time in for nothing. Your choices are your own, but once you began to sprinkle in pot shots and false statements, I knew that a response was in order.

CLAIM: I stated that the Wilt VS Kareem match-ups were "one-sided" in favor of Wilt.

FACT: That is false. I stated, "Whether it be in their primes or head to head match-ups when it really mattered, Wilt was clearly the better player." When did the head to head match-ups really matter? In the regular season? You seem to feel that is the case for when you attributed the mythical "one-sided" argument to me, you used the first match-up of the 1970-1971 regular season as an example of my logistical shortcomings. If you had actually read my post, you would know that I argued that the playoff match-ups were the games that "really mattered."

CLAIM: My argument that Wilt outplayed Kareem in 4 out of the 5 games of the 1971 Western Conference Finals is an embellishment.

FACT: Not according to those who covered the series.

April 9, 1971 AP Chamberlain and Alcindor continue to duel. Bucks beat Lakers in late rally.

The 7-foot-1 Chamberlain finished with 22 points and 20 rebounds. In addition, he was the defensive factor that his younger rival wasn't. Alcindor pumped in 32 points and grabbed 22 rebounds.

April 11, 1971 AP

Chamberlain, the last Laker to get dressed, was fuming in the dressing room following the loss. The 7-foot-1 veteran had played his best game ever against Milwaukee and its 7-foot-2 center, Lew Alcindor. Chamberlain scored 26 points and grabbed 22 rebounds to lead in both categories.

April 14, 1971 UPI Headline: Wilt outplays Alcindor

With 34-year-old Wilt Chamberlain outplaying Alcindor decisively, Milwaukee was never closer than nine points in the final period. Chamberlain outscored Alcindor 24-20 and had an edge in rebounds--24-19.

Wilt Chamberlain captured the battle of the seven-footers, but soaring "Captain Marvel" powered the Milwaukee Bucks to the Western Conference title yesterday in the National Basketball Association playoffs.

"Captain Marvel" is Greg Smith, the Buck's 6 foot 5 inch forward who is considered long on defense, but short on offense.

Chamberlain, the veteran Laker center, continued his dominance outscoring the Bucks center, 23-20, and blocked six shots while Alcindor slapped away three would-be baskets.

But it was Chamberlain, the visitor to Milwaukee with the foreboding visage, who captured the heart of the 10,746 Milwaukee fans who crammed the Milwaukee arena. When he left the floor with 1:54 left in the game, the entire arena stood and cheered the often maligned center of the Lakers. "That was nice of them--very nice." Chamberlain said.

Ironically, I'm far more kind to Kareem's performance in the 1972 Western Conference Finals than those who covered that series. You would be hard pressed to find a single reporter or magazine who didn't proclaim Wilt the "clear winner" in his match-up with Kareem. IMO, I thought that Kareem dominated Wilt in Games 1-2, and 4 whereas Wilt outplayed Kareem in Games 3, and 5-6.

Headline: Kareem's Image as Best Suffered in Buck Defeat

Bob Wolf The Milwaukee Journal April 24, 1972

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday.

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. As Chamberlain put it after the fifth game in Los Angeles, which the Lakers won, 115-90, "Tonight Kareem was taking jump shots. That's something he doesn't usually do, but I hope he keeps on doing it."

Abdul-Jabbar took more jump shots Saturday as the Lakers ended the series with a 104-100 victory. But Chamberlain's dominating presence obviously had much to do with Abdul-Jabbar's change in tactics, and Wilt's performance against the man who supposedly had usurped his title as king of the giants must have been one of the most satisfying of his long career.

Life Magazine

In the N.B.A.'s Western Division title series with Milwaukee, Chamberlain decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior.

Jerry West commenting on Wilt's Game 6 performance

The greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen.

Unlike the 1971 Western Conference Finals, one has to take into account the make-up of both teams and the role of each player in the 1972 Western Conference Finals. The Lakers went into the 1971 WCF without Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, so Wilt needed to be the focal point of the offense. Heading into the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt was the Laker's 4th option on offense, so his main goals were to rebound and play defense on Kareem.

In the last 4 games of the series, Wilt held Kareem to a FG % of .414. In game 3 of the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt blocked 10 shots, and held Kareem scoreless in the last 11 minutes of the game. In Game 5, Wilt blocked 11 shots, grabbed 26 rebounds, and dished out 6 assists. In Game 6, Wilt scored 20 points on 8-12 from the floor, grabbed 24 rebounds, and blocked 9 shots. You can harp all you want about the limited number of shots that Wilt took in Games 1-5, but the FACT is that Wilt did his job. He dominated the boards, he blocked 33 shots in the last 4 games, and he led the Lakers to a 4 games to 2 series win over the Bucks. In the 1972 NBA Finals, Wilt averaged 19.4 points, 23.3 rebounds, and he was voted the series MVP.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was an all-time great and one of the top 5 best players of all-time. Based on their production in their respective primes and their head to head match-ups in the post-season, I feel that Wilt Chamberlain was simply a better player. From 1970-1973, Kareem was the better player, but I believe that Wilt's performances against Kareem in that time period provides ample evidence that a prime Wilt would be too much for Kareem to handle.

MAJESTY: I would ask that you read my posts in their entirety, stop concocting mythical arguments attributed to me, and stick to formulating rebuttals to my main talking points. On this thread, my points of emphasis are as follows.

1) A comparison of the skills and resume of a prime Wilt and Kareem.

2) A comparison of their lone match-up prior to Wilt suffering a severe knee injury in 1969.

3) A comparison of their head to head match-ups in the playoffs.

You didn't comment on the comparisons of the two giants in their primes, but stated that in their lone match-up in 1969, the two were "pretty evenly matched." I never stated that Wilt dominated Kareem in that match-up, but the stat line and outcome of the game clearly demonstrates that Wilt outplayed Kareem. Wilt scored more points, dished out more assists, grabbed more rebounds, blocked more shots, had a much higher FG %, and the Lakers won the game.

So you want to go prime v prime now? Skills and resume of a prime Wilt vs a prime Kareem.

Let's do that then!

Alright first of all in their respective primes they had two distinctly different roles when it came to their teams.

Wilt DID benefit from being the only 7 footer in the league at the time, to act like this isn't true is a myth. He DID benefit from being the "athletic freak" of his time when the average center was 6'8 or 6'9 and the only exception aside from Wilt is Swede Halbrook. The reason Wilt was so successful was because he had skill along with that athletic freak nature of his and is something that won't be discounted. Wilt was dominant in his time and that isn't discredited, but people make much of his.

What isn't mentioned is that there is a reason why his teams never really advanced beyond the second round in those "dominant statistical seasons" and there is a reason Wilt scored so much, and also a reason why Wilt never scored over 30 again after the 1966 season. One it's because he finally got some teammates around him. Notice the first season he didn't HAVE to score 30-40 a game was the season they won the championship.

Up until that point Wilt took an average of 30 shots a game in his first 9 years in the league... 30 shots a game. There is a reason why his scoring numbers were so high. They absolutely had to be.

So if we're looking at a prime Wilt Chamberlain we're looking at a guy who had to shoot the ball 30 times just to keep his team in games, by the time he got to the Lakers that number dropped to about 15 a game, and the year his team actually had a championship squad(before going to LA) it dropped to 14.

So we shouldn't discredit just HOW reliant Wilt's teams were on him early on in his career, for 9 years(and no championships) he had to take 30 shots a game just to keep his team in games, and it wasn't till after that, that he started winning championships and no longer had to do everything. Those first 9 years are the REASON people hold him in such high regard.

But you cannot I repeat CANNOT use that as any way to try to compare to Kareem's first 9 years in the league. Kareem at no point in his career had to take 30 shots a game to keep his team in it, they relied on him yeah, but his team was a more complete one than the ones Wilt came into the league and for lack of a better word padded his stats with(thats not a knock on Wilt)

But let's look at the one season Kareem had something similar to what Wilt had

In the 1971-72 season Kareem had to take 24 shots a game and he averaged 34/16
Let's compare that to Wilt(when he was still carrying his team) in the 64-65 season.
In 64-65 Wilt had to take 28 shots per game he averahed 34/22
4 more shots, same amount of points as Kareem. The difference is Kareem shot 57% while Wilt shot 51%.

Kareem was EVERY BIT the prolific scorer that Wilt Chamberlain was, on LESS shots.

So let that marinate for a bit.

One thing that was always genuine about Wilt was his ability to rebound the ball and he trumps Jabbar in that category HOWEVER Kareem also had more dominant rebounders around him at that time. The second leading rebounder behind Kareem on his team had 8 rebounds per game. The closest anyone came on that team rebound wise to Wilt was 5. But that's just nitpicking ain't it?

My point is proven here that it's not that Kareem WASN'T as prolific a scorer as Wilt as you would lead some to believe, it's just the fact that Kareem didn't have to average 30 shots a game for the first 9 years of his career. In fact he matches Wilt scoring wise on 4 less shots in the one similar season they had shooting the ball. And the Wilt stat I used was BEFORE the knee injury. So you don't have THAT to lean on anymore do you So there I just compared a PRIME Wilt to a PRIME Kareem where they had to shoot the ball nearly the same amount of times, Kareem scored more, on less shots and a higher shooting percentage.

Kareem was as prolific a scorer as Wilt, he just didn't have to shoot 30 times a game, point made.

Kareem also averaged more assists than Wilt comparing their first 9 years in the league before Wilt got a "team" but I'm sure you don't wanna hear that.

But just for the heck of it

First 9 years
Kareem: 4.3 assists per game
Wilt: 3.3

Now on to the next one

Prior to the 1969-1970 season, coach Joe Mullaney asked Wilt to become the focal point of the Laker offense, and Wilt responded by averaging 33 points a game before injuring his knee in the 9th game of the year. Rather than provide a salient rebuttal to my commentary regarding their playoff match-ups, you decided to conflate ALL of their match-ups from 1970-1973.

After reading page after page of regular season and playoff comparisons, my first thought was that you put a whole lotta time in for nothing. Your choices are your own, but once you began to sprinkle in pot shots and false statements, I knew that a response was in order.

CLAIM: I stated that the Wilt VS Kareem match-ups were "one-sided" in favor of Wilt.

FACT: That is false. I stated, "Whether it be in their primes or head to head match-ups when it really mattered, Wilt was clearly the better player." When did the head to head match-ups really matter? In the regular season? You seem to feel that is the case for when you attributed the mythical "one-sided" argument to me, you used the first match-up of the 1970-1971 regular season as an example of my logistical shortcomings. If you had actually read my post, you would know that I argued that the playoff match-ups were the games that "really mattered."

Actually if we're going by the head to head matchups, they were pretty much even.

What you're trying to lean on is say that the knee injury prevented Kareem from dominating more often rather than giving Kareem his due as a proilific scorer on his own right nor do you even entertain the notion that even if Wilt had never gotten injured would Kareem have gotten the best of him the times he did.

You aren't saying it but you insinuate it as you use their ONLY matchup in 1969(which is prior to the injury) as evidence as to who is the better player.

It doesn't prove that Wilt is the better player. Many consider Kareems 3rd year his 34/16 year I pointed out above as when he was reaching his peak and being what he went on to become. THAT is a prime Kareem and unfortunately that's what Wilt had to deal with even if he was the "injured never was the same scorer again" Wilt that you'd like tp place on him. But as above I showed

CLAIM: My argument that Wilt outplayed Kareem in 4 out of the 5 games of the 1971 Western Conference Finals is an embellishment.

FACT: Not according to those who covered the series.

April 11, 1971 AP

Chamberlain, the last Laker to get dressed, was fuming in the dressing room following the loss. The 7-foot-1 veteran had played his best game ever against Milwaukee and its 7-foot-2 center, Lew Alcindor. Chamberlain scored 26 points and grabbed 22 rebounds to lead in both categories.

April 14, 1971 UPI Headline: Wilt outplays Alcindor

With 34-year-old Wilt Chamberlain outplaying Alcindor decisively, Milwaukee was never closer than nine points in the final period. Chamberlain outscored Alcindor 24-20 and had an edge in rebounds--24-19.

Wilt Chamberlain captured the battle of the seven-footers, but soaring "Captain Marvel" powered the Milwaukee Bucks to the Western Conference title yesterday in the National Basketball Association playoffs.

I'm not asking you what the media said, I put it in front of you.

Two games in that 4-5 claim of yours and then tried to deflect and go "but the media said it was" iIm putting it in front of you.

Where Kareem obviously outplayed Wilt. The credit they gave to Wilt was his effort on the defensive end, but Kareem outdueled him in every other statistic INCLUDING rebounds in BOTH of these games.

Look at what is in front of you and tell me Chamberlain outplayed Kareem in one of these? Honestly... tell me that right now.

And THEN you go and cite the two games I already admitted that Wilt outplayed Kareem in, but not the 31 point vs the 15 point outburst where Kareem went off dominating him everywhere else. And THEN you cite the 3rd game that I admitted that Wilt came back in against Kareem as evidence. I said it was 3 games to 2 that Wilt edged the sophomore Kareem. So your extra citations don't really add anything to the argument since the games you decided to cite were games I already said Wilt got the better of Kareem in, with the EXCEPTION of the first game, which obviously Kareem outdid him everywhere but blocked shots.

I know what game you're playing good sir, it is a marvelous debate tactic

Ironically, I'm far more kind to Kareem's performance in the 1972 Western Conference Finals than those who covered that series. You would be hard pressed to find a single reporter or magazine who didn't proclaim Wilt the "clear winner" in his match-up with Kareem. IMO, I thought that Kareem dominated Wilt in Games 1-2, and 4 whereas Wilt outplayed Kareem in Games 3, and 5-6.

You really.. REALLY think that games 3,5 and 6 should go to Wilt? Honestly.. because I'm really befuddled as to why.

Unlike the 1971 Western Conference Finals, one has to take into account the make-up of both teams and the roles that each player played

Which is precisely what you didn't do when comparing them prime for prime which I did up there in my first response to you when I compared the time they put up a similar amount of shots? Alright.

in the 1972 Western Conference Finals. The Lakers went into the 1971 WCF without Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, so Wilt needed to be the focal point of the offense. Wilt responded by averaging 22 points over 5 games. Heading into the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt was the Laker's 4th option on offense, so his main goals were to rebound and play defense on Kareem.

No problem with that. And Kareem had 25 during those 5 games compared to Wilts 22 but go on.

It's also funny how you talk about the 1971 matchup in that the Lakers didn't have Jerry West so it caused Wilt to be effected this way but didn't mention how in 1972 the Bucks had an injured Oscar Robertson hanging on by a thread... reason for that is what?

You make no mention of the fact that due to Robertsons injury the bucks had to change their offense on the fly and Kareem was forced to take many shots he usually didn't take and how his shots per game shot up from 24 to 33 in that series because of Robertsons injury as well as a few others on the team.

In the last 4 games of the series, Wilt held Kareem to a FG % of .414. In game 3 of the 1972 Western Conference Finals, Wilt blocked 10 shots, and held Kareem scoreless in the last 11 minutes of the game. In Game 5, Wilt blocked 11 shots, grabbed 26 rebounds, and dished out 6 assists. In Game 6, Wilt scored 20 points on 8-12 from the floor, grabbed 24 rebounds, and blocked 9 shots. You can harp all you want about the limited number of shots that Wilt took in Games 1-5, but the FACT is that Wilt did his job. He dominated the boards, he blocked 33 shots in the last 4 games, and he led the Lakers to a 4 games to 2 series win over the Bucks. In the 1972 NBA Finals, Wilt averaged 19.4 points, 23.3 rebounds, and he was voted the series MVP.

Yep Wilt was a good defensive but you also discredit Kareem who was playing defense as well on the interior, not so much against Wilt because he wasn't going to be looking to score each time, but against the likes of Jerry West(who was held to 9-23 shooting because of Robertson and Jabbar both, and Robertson put on a vintage performance although unhealthy, till of course the next game.

Here's something you also neglected to mention, the Lakers barely were able to defeat the Bucks in the games they won in that series, winning one game by 1 and another by 3. Wilt's defense had to do with it, but there's also something else that you neglect to mention.

OSCAR ROBERTSON WAS INJURED!!!!!!!

Game 1 the bucks won, Oscar was fighting through injury, and still held down Jerry West to 4-19 and the Bucks got to play in rhythm and Kareem didn't have to force shots.

Games 2 and 3 were barely wins by the Lakers where Oscar was still fighting through injury but didn't hold West, but it was Goodrich that won it for them late on, and yes Wilts marvelous performance holding Kareem that final quarter, the unfortunate thing is that Oscar Robertson wasn't able to be to the point guard or scorer that they needed and Kareem had to force shots out of rhythm, though credit to Wilt.

That game that the Bucks won(on Kareem's birthday) was the second blowout of that series and looked to be a turning point where the Bucks would take over. This was tied 2-2 at that point and Oscar Robertson dug DEEP with Kareem and that game was a blowout. Unfortunately after that point Oscar was done.

The Lakers blew them out the next game. And game 6 WAS close , in fact the REASON why Kareem had to force up 37 shots in that game was because Oscar Robertson couldn't go on and had to sit out the 2nd half.

That was the game that there is a question mark on in terms of if the Bucks had their co-captain as well as if Kareem didn't have to force up so many shots due to his absense.

You can go 12 days of Sunday about the marvelous defensive effort Wilt played on Kareem in the final game WITHOUT Oscar Robertson.

But "stopping" someone while they still drop 33 per game on you does say something about how prolific a scorer Kareem could be, it is unfortunate we will never see what it would have been if Kareem didn't have to force so many shots in the absence of Oscar but it's nothing dissimilar to what Wilt dealt with earlier in his career then isn't and yet and still AGAINST Wilt, he still dropped 33 on him.

That isn't something to discount. Even if you gave wilt the final head to head matchup on the defense he played against a Kareem where the offense that was coming without Oscar was something none of them were used to, you can.

Kareem outplayed him in 5 of those 6 games head to head while still dropping 33 per game on him and if you're going to make a big deal out of Wilt when he was asked to be the 'scorer' averaging 22 per game against Kareem when they entered the 71 without West, I can easily do the same about Kareem's 33 points on Wilt over the course of 6 games

And all the debate between us showed is that it's a close contest, but there's nothing that shows that Kareem couldn't be as prolific a scorer as Wilt if he was asked to be, the thing is he wasn't asked to be very often and when he was it wasn't because the entire team was built around him shooting 30 times it was a desperate call by the coach. They both got the better each other at given times under different circumstances.

Would Kareem have been more prolific than Wilt if he was shooting 30-40 shots a night? Probably.

The reality is in the playoff series they played against each other in terms of their head to heads in the playoffs.

Chamberlain in 71 won the matchup 3 games to 2.
Kareem in 72 won the matchup 4 games to 1.

That's 6-4 in favor of Kareem in their PLAYOFF matchups when it "mattered".

And in their regular season matchups Kareem outplayed Wilt 16 games to 4.

So Wilt never outplayed Kareem more in the PLAYOFFS or in the regular season. Wilt just had a few standout moments you like to cite.

Now as I said at the start it was a close matchup. And since you showed no shame when you decided to post up the stats Wilt had against Bill Russell with a jacked up knee I'm not going to do so for your WIlt Although I did agree with your opinion there, jacked up up knee for Bill or not.

Like I said it would be a close matchup, but I'm picking Kareem over 99.9% of most people including a prime Wilt.

It'd be close, but I'm sticking with Kareem.

All our debate has proven thus far is that they are both amazing players that can have their name in terms of GOAT status, but it was nowhere near as one sided as you made it seem, and I give the edge to Kareem.

You can edge Wilt if you want to on your own opinion, but at this point considering how even they were it's apples and oranges. You can make an EXTREME case for both. As evidenced here.

One thing is for sure, you can't go wrong with either, as Kareem had an immense respect for Wilt and said he knew if he wasn't as good as he was and didn't bring everything he had in EVERY matchup against Wilt he'd have been destroyed. Wilt criticized Kareem the way Kareem etc criticize centers nowadays. It's too bad that their relationship became strained the way it did, but Wilt could be a bit of a jerk when it came to competitiveness and Kareem was no slouch either when it came to being questioned. It's too bad that both great players had such animosity when Wilt was Kareem's idol before he got to the league and all throughout high school.

But oh well, it happens. Both are great. Best centers of all time no matter who you put first or second and it can be debated till the end of time which goes where.

Edited by Majesty, October 04, 2013 - 06:47 PM.

"Bryant had come to rage against the idea that Howard's clownish disposition could overtake the locker room, the Lakers' culture, and had warned Howard that he would never, ever let it happen."

Wilt has shown, in his mid 30s, was holding Kareem to 46% shooting. This wasn't even Wilt in his prime defending him. A mid 30s Wilt was averaging 17pts on 52% shooting.......now how is Kareem going to guard a PRIME Wilt. Wilt was much stronger, faster, and could jump higher and he was skilled. Kareem wouldn't be able to stop him.