Karma Dorje wrote:Saying something sounds like something else doesn't refute it. Regardless, zero sum is irrelevant. Those that are human now are quite obviously not accounted for by the number of humans that existed on the earth prior to 1900. Unless you are saying that there are 5.3 billion tulkus that account for the difference, there is a 1:1 correlation that needs to be explained. Where are these sentient beings coming from? An actual argument for your position would be welcomed.

You don't think that beings from other worlds / world systems would incarnate in this one?

Also, hell beings, pretas, gods and demi gods could all be ascending or falling into human births, it is not just animal realm----> human realm.

Adamantine: You may not have caught what I said in earlier posts addressing these two issues. Of course beings from other world systems can incarnate here and of course all of these other beings can and are born here. However, it is much less likely. Beings tend to stick with other beings they have connections with, particularly with those that have murdered them or harmed them (which explains a lot of marriages).

"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that"—Bill Shankly

I was in Catholic seminary for a time back in the day, celibate for several years. It was wonderful, but also as a young man, caused me great psychological confusion. I left, and found Trungpa. Hung around his circle in the day where for the first time I discovered that one could have serious religion AND a normal sex life [in fact, in those days with Trungpa, sometimes things around Trungpa got pretty wild too. It was the 70s]. Anyway, when I did start having sex, my asthma disappeared, as did a bit of a stutter. I can't prove it, but I always connected that since the stutter left the day after I first slept with a woman.

uan wrote:The teachings also talk about an infinite number of beings in the 10 directions of the universe etc. You're painting a picture that there is some sort of bull pen and as more people get born that there is a dearth of beings who've been previously in the human realm to come back and take rebirth. You're effectively saying "do the math" there's no way the beings taking rebirth could have come from anywhere but the animal realms. And those that are slaughtered at that.

I have not heard even so much as a shred of an argument to the contrary. Just the claim that "that's a projection", and endless misstatements of my position. I didn't say there's no way the beings could come from anywhere else. I said the most likely explanation is this. The one thing that is for certain is they aren't coming from the human realm. That's just simple arithmetic.

Why don't you explain why this makes no sense, based on buddhist teachings and scriptures?

NUMBER WHO HAVE EVER BEEN BORN: 107,602,707,791World population in mid-2011: 6,987,000,000Percent of those ever born who are living in 2011: 6.5

So 108 Billon people have been more on this planet. 7 Billion currently alive. It would seem that there are, oh, 101 Billion previous human beings waiting to be reborn into the human realm.

Yes, not all coming from the human realm, though they could. Or those that have previously been in the human realm.

While were are on the way off topic subject, from Yahoo Answer to the question of how many animals/living creatures there might be alive on the planet:

There are an estimated 10^18 (that's 1 with 18 zeroes) Arthropods on earth (insects, arachnids, myriapods, and crustaceans) and an estimated 4 trillion fish (4*10^12)

but those are the only estimates I know of, the amounts of reptiles, birds, and mammals are small in comparison to those numbers, and there are animals like worms and Cnidarians that are incredibly plentiful as well. You'd have to imagine there are probably 10^25 animals on earth at LEAST

And in fact, zooplankton alone may outnumber all other animals combinedSource(s):zoology student

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 living creatures on this planet. That is a number to make one pause. We are so incredibly fortunate to have a human birth, and to be talking about the dharma, whether we agree or disagree.

Regardless of where they come, may each and every one take the most advantage that they possibly can while they have a precious human life. And what the numbers do show is that a human birth is very precious.

uan, do you really think that "all of the people who have ever been born" are waiting around in some sort of limbo waiting for decades and generations? Or rather do you see your current life as just at the summit of an immense pile of discarded corpses? I know how it looks to me. There are very short periods between lives if the various bardo guidebooks are to be believed.

"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that"—Bill Shankly

Karma D, you said it's simple arithmetic that the only place were the majority of beings taking human rebirth right now can come from are the animal realms. You also indicate that it's because they are being "murdered" that they want to come back ("particularly with those that have murdered them or harmed them (which explains a lot of marriages").

Where are all the beings coming from taking rebirth? I don't know. There are advanced practitioners who can look back and see how their cycles of rebirth have happened and brought them to their current state. I can't. And I'm okay with that. I'm sure there are some who can see where all the human beings being born today are coming from.

I imagine beings are coming from all 6 realms. You are the one that keeps putting forth the idea that the only rational explanation is that the current rebirths are coming from the animals we have slaughtered (or "murdered"), and that is the only realm which could provide the sheer number of human beings living today (from your idea that there were only 1.7B people in 1900). Of course beings will cycle through the different realms, but we can't know where the "majority" comes from or that slaughtered animals get immediately reborn as humans. Or at least I cannot. You seem to have special insight into this I just don't have.

Since this thread is about Celibacy, the polar opposite of rebirth, we should probably let the thread get

dzogchungpa, Celibacy is important but what Nisargadatta said is more important "If you stand aloof as observer only, you will not suffer. You will see the world as a show, a most entertaining show indeed. When you begin to question your dream, awakening will not be far away"

uan wrote:So 108 Billon people have been more on this planet. 7 Billion currently alive. It would seem that there are, oh, 101 Billion previous human beings waiting to be reborn into the human realm.

This would only be true if you asserted that these 108 billion were/are completely distinct individual entities. I think this is highly unlikely, probably each of us here, and most people in general, have lived several human lives on this planet. In which case it would be possible that 7 billion people reincarnated again and again to make up to 108 billion. But since the formation of this planet our current numbers are highest and growing, it indicates there there are beings from other realms being born as humans. I suppose most of these could be from the animal realm because of strongest karmic connections. On the other hand karma is a funny thing and there's no way to really tell how it is for ordinary folks like us.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

uan wrote:So 108 Billon people have been more on this planet. 7 Billion currently alive. It would seem that there are, oh, 101 Billion previous human beings waiting to be reborn into the human realm.

This would only be true if you asserted that these 108 billion were/are completely distinct individual entities. I think this is highly unlikely, probably each of us here, and most people in general, have lived several human lives on this planet. In which case it would be possible that 7 billion people reincarnated again and again to make up to 108 billion. But since the formation of this planet our current numbers are highest and growing, it indicates there there are beings from other realms being born as humans. I suppose most of these could be from the animal realm because of strongest karmic connections. On the other hand karma is a funny thing and there's no way to really tell how it is for ordinary folks like us.

The truth is that it's absurd to put an actual number to the number of beings in existence in the 6 realms. Has there been some Buddhist census? But that's what we try to do when we say there are "x" number of people alive today, so the majority of beings must be taking rebirth from the animal realms (as an example). I'd love to hear if any realized lama or monk from any of the traditions has actually weighed in on this. I believe in the scriptures that the numbers (including world systems, etc.) are considered so vast as to be infinite.

Recently I watched Yogis of Tibet and posted an excerpt with Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche (on the Paul Williams thread) who could recount his past lives. He said he'd been in the hell realms, the animal realms, he's been a hungry ghost etc. I'm sure that's true of us all. While we are still in Samsara that's the way it will continue to go. I'm sure we'll move in an out of the different realms based on our unique causes and conditions. Don't the scriptures talk about it taking 3 incalculable eons to reach enlightenment? How many lifetimes is that? I don't know, more than a couple I'd imagine and it would be a number that dwarfs what we can really imagine or contemplate.

Let's not forget too, that there are trillions of beings needing to take rebirth for all the animals and insects and fish and other beings dying. I think whatever we can do to keep from accumulating negative karma and generating merit is incredibly important. I think the numbers are helpful for showing how precious and rare a chance human rebirth is and we would do well to weigh that against any mundane activities we participate in, including, just to stay on topic, engaging in sex ... er, not engaging in sex

uan wrote:So 108 Billon people have been more on this planet. 7 Billion currently alive. It would seem that there are, oh, 101 Billion previous human beings waiting to be reborn into the human realm.

This would only be true if you asserted that these 108 billion were/are completely distinct individual entities. I think this is highly unlikely, probably each of us here, and most people in general, have lived several human lives on this planet. In which case it would be possible that 7 billion people reincarnated again and again to make up to 108 billion. But since the formation of this planet our current numbers are highest and growing, it indicates there there are beings from other realms being born as humans. I suppose most of these could be from the animal realm because of strongest karmic connections. On the other hand karma is a funny thing and there's no way to really tell how it is for ordinary folks like us.

The truth is that it's absurd to put an actual number to the number of beings in existence in the 6 realms. Has there been some Buddhist census?

Yes, the last one was in 2009. Haven't you heard?

But that's what we try to do when we say there are "x" number of people alive today, so the majority of beings must be taking rebirth from the animal realms (as an example). I'd love to hear if any realized lama or monk from any of the traditions has actually weighed in on this. I believe in the scriptures that the numbers (including world systems, etc.) are considered so vast as to be infinite.

Eh, I don't think it's really that important, it's just something to pass the time.

Recently I watched Yogis of Tibet and posted an excerpt with Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche (on the Paul Williams thread) who could recount his past lives. He said he'd been in the hell realms, the animal realms, he's been a hungry ghost etc. I'm sure that's true of us all. While we are still in Samsara that's the way it will continue to go.'m sure we'll move in an out of the different realms based on our unique causes and conditions.

Of course.

Let's not forget too, that there are trillions of beings needing to take rebirth for all the animals and insects and fish and other beings dying.

But they don't necessarily have any cause to be born as human.

I think the numbers are helpful for showing how precious and rare a chance human rebirth is and we would do well to weigh that against any mundane activities we participate in, including, just to stay on topic, engaging in sex ... er, not engaging in sex

I suppose. But I think that is shown no matter which way you view the numbers.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

I just ran across this interesting site about the (short) history of celibacy in the Catholic church. Since the Catholic Church is the largest example of celibate order we see around us in the Western World, I think it may shape our image of how clerics conduct themselves. I was not raised Christian, but I certainly have some kind of celibate Catholic priest archetype in the back of my mind.

I agree with what Tara said about celibacy occuring naturally - or as part of this self-liberation of desires etc. Obviously there would be negative impacts on health if forced celibacy is followed and if one has a lot of anxiety related to ones sexual feelings. If one identifies with these feelings and follows them, then celibacy is pretty much impossible and the resultant anxiety is unhealthy. This anxiety can create problems and I would suggest the path of a celibate monastic is not for everyone. That being said, if one is able to be naturally celibate and can let go or transform the strong sexual energies that engulf us from time to time, then I can see that this would have a very positive impact on health. So surely some monastics following a celebate path are doing very well.There is a really well written piece on our psychosexual makeup over on Keith Dowmans website. I would recommend a read of that. It's very interesting.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Going back to the discussion of numbers of beings in the realms... even if you think of things within our perceptual limitations as humans, there were most like worlds with life before and after Earth in the Universe, as well as sentient life elsewhere in this universe. Also, universes come and go. In other words, samsara is endless, and we are not in a closed system of incarnations confined to this planet.

Yudron wrote:Going back to the discussion of numbers of beings in the realms... even if you think of things within our perceptual limitations as humans, there were most like worlds with life before and after Earth in the Universe, as well as sentient life elsewhere in this universe. Also, universes come and go. In other words, samsara is endless, and we are not in a closed system of incarnations confined to this planet.

That is not disputed. However, beings tend to cluster around those that they share connections with. Amongst those realized beings that can remember their past lives, there is generally a thread of connections to a particular place and group of fellow travelers and almost always on this planet. The prior discussion here centered around whether many of those born on earth now are coming from the lower realms, and in particular from the animal realm.

Given the obscenely cruel industrial slaughter of animals on a scale never before seen, there are certainly many animals who have strong karma with humans. It stands to reason that many born as humans now were animals most recently. I don't think you will find many lamas that argue against this.

"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that"—Bill Shankly

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

AlanI wrote:I was in Catholic seminary for a time back in the day, celibate for several years. It was wonderful, but also as a young man, caused me great psychological confusion. I left, and found Trungpa. Hung around his circle in the day where for the first time I discovered that one could have serious religion AND a normal sex life [in fact, in those days with Trungpa, sometimes things around Trungpa got pretty wild too. It was the 70s]. Anyway, when I did start having sex, my asthma disappeared, as did a bit of a stutter. I can't prove it, but I always connected that since the stutter left the day after I first slept with a woman.

Al

I don't find that hard to believe at all. Celibacy is one of the hardest things for me to accept as part of spiritual training. No, I don't practise it (married with 4 kids) & I've never in the past considered it & can't see myself considering it in the future. Buddhism often asks us to look into the true nature of ourselves, well the true nature of people is the same as the true nature of the animals, that is too have sex & breed young before you die. Many religions/sects are split on the celibacy or marriage issue. Things are different for a monk or a nun but as a lay follower we have the 3rd precept to guide us & for me that's enough.

shaunc, I get your point but if the yearning for liberation is strong where is all the talk of renunciation?A disciple may ask how am I to practice desirelessness?Nisargadatta answers " No need to practice. No needs of any acts of renunciation. Just turn your mind away, that is all. Desire is merely the fixation of the mind on an idea. Get it out of its groove by denying it attention."

My dog wants to poop on the living room floor but that doesn't mean I have to let her.

I suspect sooner or later I'll realize that the bliss of certain techniques associated with celibacy is greater than the bliss of orgasm.

I fled Him, down the nights and down the days; I fled Him, down the arches of the years; I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways, Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears, I hid from Him, and under running laughter. Up vistaed hopes I sped; And shot, precipitated, Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears, From those strong Feet that followed, followed after. But with unhurrying chase, And unperturbèd pace, Deliberate speed, majestic instancy, They beat - and a Voice beat - More instant than the Feet - ‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’

shaunc wrote:Buddhism often asks us to look into the true nature of ourselves, well the true nature of people is the same as the true nature of the animals, that is too have sex & breed young before you die.

Lust, along with hatred and delusion, is what keeps beings wandering in saṃsāra -- humans and animals included.

shaunc wrote:Buddhism often asks us to look into the true nature of ourselves, well the true nature of people is the same as the true nature of the animals, that is too have sex & breed young before you die.

Lust, along with hatred and delusion, is what keeps beings wandering in saṃsāra -- humans and animals included.

Yeah but one can be more lustful while celibate potentially than if one were actually getting some action. It's a moot point.

It's all about capacity and karmic proclivity. Some people would be aggravated more by lust if they were celibate. Some people would thrive as a celibate. Some people are sexually active but not really engaged, they feel like it's an alien activity. They have no real need or desire for it, other than pleasing a partner. Everything is relative.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha