This is a discussion on Determining 3bet range Value Range using PFR within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; So in determining a 3bet value range should you base that range on the midpoint of villain's assumed pre-flop raising range?
For example; a Nitty

Determining 3bet range Value Range using PFR

So in determining a 3bet value range should you base that range on the midpoint of villain's assumed pre-flop raising range?

For example; a Nitty player has a PFR from MP of 6%. A 6% range is probably something like 88+ AJs+ AQo+ KJs+. So to determine whether you should make a 3bet for value would you take the midpoint of villain's assumed range and use that as your range for 3betting? If so, in the example above a value range would 3% which is JJ+, AK and if villain was a LAG with an 18% PFR your value 3bet range might be something like 88+ ATs+ AJo+ KTs+ KQo QJs

Is this line of thinking valid?

Also, not that it is really applicable at the stakes I play but for extra credit, if you wanted to 3bet for value AND add some 3bet bluffs, what ratio of value bets to bluffs would be optimal? And if you did establish a 3bet bluff range would it be hands just below your value range? or would it be better to polarize your range so that the bluffing range might include small pocket pairs, suited connectors and small suited Aces which had some chance of flopping some equity and perhaps a well concealed Monster??

Finally it has been my gut instinct that a 3bet range OOP should be a litte higher than when IP as it is harder to control the pot when OOP, so if your 3bet range in position was JJ+, AK when IP, then OOP (in the blinds) you may wish to 3bet hands like TT & AQs which you would hate to fold but also hate to play out of position?

#2

4th February 2011, 7:47 PM

rileyl [477]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Holdem

Originally Posted by fx20736

Is this line of thinking valid?

Short Answer.....No.

When determining your 3Bet Value range all you really need to consider is the range villain CALLS your 3Bet with. If villain is never calling with worse theree is no point 3Betting.

Hands like AJ, AQ, etc are usually better to flat with. By flatting you keep in the hands that you dominate where as if you 3Bet you only really get called by hands that beat you..(In most situations)

If someone really doesn't like folding to 3Bets then you widen your value range.

I talked alot about 3Betting in my Micros Stakes Guide which is in the Golden Archive. Check it out! It talks about how to determine how many bluffs you should have in your range and the factors to look for when 3Betting.

#3

4th February 2011, 8:14 PM

fx20736 [2,728]

Originally Posted by rileyl

Short Answer.....No.

When determining your 3Bet Value range all you really need to consider is the range villain CALLS your 3Bet with. If villain is never calling with worse theree is no point 3Betting.

Hands like AJ, AQ, etc are usually better to flat with. By flatting you keep in the hands that you dominate where as if you 3Bet you only really get called by hands that beat you..(In most situations)

If someone really doesn't like folding to 3Bets then you widen your value range.

I talked alot about 3Betting in my Micros Stakes Guide which is in the Golden Archive. Check it out! It talks about how to determine how many bluffs you should have in your range and the factors to look for when 3Betting.

ok, but...

getting a reasonable sample of Call 3bets when opponent is OOP might be almost impossible. If your opponent only gets 2 or 3% of the time and you only have a few hundred hands in your HUD then how reliable would that sample be??

When villain is unknown then how you determine a value range?

If you are 3betting based on their Call 3bet range and they are folding 90% of their hands to a 3bet then it seems that in effect a HUGE part of your 3betting will be bluffs (whether they can be considered value bets also). It would also seem that if villain had a PFR of 12% but folded to almost any 3bet then you would get much better value from hands like AA, QQ, JJ & AK by flatting an open raise so you have a chance to get more chips when they flop TP2K and you have TPTK, an Overpair or a set. Seems to me that KK would be the exception as folding out weak Aces have the best EV, espeically if you think they call 3bets with QQ JJ AK.

I will review your guide and let you know what I think..

#4

4th February 2011, 9:31 PM

LuckyChippy [4,987]

re: Poker & Determining 3bet range Value Range using PFR

If you don't have enough hands on a villain to determine things like this then just play straightforward and standard. 3 bet AK/QQ+ for value. When you have 500 hands on a player and see that he folds to 90% of 3-bets then make adjustments, don't worry about it until then.

The only exception is when you've seen showdowns. For example a 70/40 calling 3-bets with trash and calling down.

#5

4th February 2011, 10:01 PM

fx20736 [2,728]

Originally Posted by LuckyChippy

If you don't have enough hands on a villain to determine things like this then just play straightforward and standard. 3 bet AK/QQ+ for value. When you have 500 hands on a player and see that he folds to 90% of 3-bets then make adjustments, don't worry about it until then.

The only exception is when you've seen showdowns. For example a 70/40 calling 3-bets with trash and calling down.

I agree, in fact my default 3bet is QQ+/AK but at what point do we fear the squeeze play? Say your in MP and you flat call unknown villain's EP open raise with TT. At what levels (Full Ring) does this move run into re-raises fairly often. If you're not sure if you will have absolute positon on every opponent after the flop does isolating the preflop raiser factor strongly in our 3betting range? What happens if we flat in MP with TT and the button re-raises? (For this example let's just say everyone has 100bb, EP raises to 4bb, we flat and button re-raises to 18bb, original raiser folds.) then what? We can't profitably call because then we're esentially playing for set value and we won't get odds to do so.

#6

4th February 2011, 10:43 PM

LuckyChippy [4,987]

Originally Posted by fx20736

I agree, in fact my default 3bet is QQ+/AK but at what point do we fear the squeeze play? Say your in MP and you flat call unknown villain's EP open raise with TT. At what levels (Full Ring) does this move run into re-raises fairly often. If you're not sure if you will have absolute positon on every opponent after the flop does isolating the preflop raiser factor strongly in our 3betting range? What happens if we flat in MP with TT and the button re-raises? (For this example let's just say everyone has 100bb, EP raises to 4bb, we flat and button re-raises to 18bb, original raiser folds.) then what? We can't profitably call because then we're esentially playing for set value and we won't get odds to do so.

Then we fold until we get enough information to know that villain will squeeze us wide enough that TT becomes a profitable 4-bet.

What you need to get past is that when you make a decision (to flat TT) it is the correct decision at the time. When an unknown then squeezes us, it doesn't make it the wrong decision. At the time of the decision, taking into consideration all information, we make our play.

To be honest, you won't be getting squeezed all that wide until levels well beyond both of our knowledge.

#7

4th February 2011, 11:39 PM

fx20736 [2,728]

Originally Posted by LuckyChippy

Then we fold until we get enough information to know that villain will squeeze us wide enough that TT becomes a profitable 4-bet.

What you need to get past is that when you make a decision (to flat TT) it is the correct decision at the time. When an unknown then squeezes us, it doesn't make it the wrong decision. At the time of the decision, taking into consideration all information, we make our play.

To be honest, you won't be getting squeezed all that wide until levels well beyond both of our knowledge.

That what I was looking for. A lot of poker books advise against flatting when there are players yet to act but most of those books were not written for online microstakes. if I don't have to worry about it then I will do a little more flatting.

So against an unknown (full ring micros) you might have a default 3bet range of QQ+/AK which means maybe you are flatting hands like AQ, AJs KQs JJ TT 99 because you may either have the best hand preflop or improve to it which means I'm likely to test villain by either re-raising their c-bet regardless of how I connected to the flop or floating, and bet/raising the turn ESPECIALLY if I pick up any equity or could barrell a scare card. Whereas preflop I might flat with 88/77 primarily for set value and if flop is low maybe call one street and if villain checks the turn, check behind and possibly get to a cheap showdown if they miss completely (read whiffed AK/AQ)?? I'm not likely to flat hands like AJo ATs KJs QJs because I think you need way too much help from the flop to have the best hand by the river.

#8

5th February 2011, 1:00 PM

LuckyChippy [4,987]

re: Poker & Determining 3bet range Value Range using PFR

Originally Posted by fx20736

That what I was looking for. A lot of poker books advise against flatting when there are players yet to act but most of those books were not written for online microstakes. if I don't have to worry about it then I will do a little more flatting.

So against an unknown (full ring micros) you might have a default 3bet range of QQ+/AK which means maybe you are flatting hands like AQ, AJs KQs JJ TT 99 because you may either have the best hand preflop or improve to it which means I'm likely to test villain by either re-raising their c-bet regardless of how I connected to the flop or floating, and bet/raising the turn ESPECIALLY if I pick up any equity or could barrell a scare card. Whereas preflop I might flat with 88/77 primarily for set value and if flop is low maybe call one street and if villain checks the turn, check behind and possibly get to a cheap showdown if they miss completely (read whiffed AK/AQ)?? I'm not likely to flat hands like AJo ATs KJs QJs because I think you need way too much help from the flop to have the best hand by the river.

You need to start thinking of ranges but generally you're right. The reason we flat the hands above is because when we 3-bet nothing worse will call and that defeats the point when we have such a strong hand. Generally they will have a weak range (CO vs BTN) and we want to keep in lots of that range so we make value bets later on when we hit, and make them fold on the right flops where their range doesn't connect well with the flop. Yes that means making them fold when we don't have it.

At the moment it seems like you're talking just in terms of making moves like raising c-bets without any reason why. You are mentioning barrelling scare cards though so there's some thought to how we're going to steal the pot.

I think the first step is to look at flops, both as the c-bettor and facing c-bets and try to figure out ranges on different flop textures. Learn to play pre, learn to play the flop, learn to play the turn, learn to play the river.

For example, what flops do you want to c-bet (REGARDLESS OF YOUR HAND) where you think you have a lot of fold equity. Which ones shouldn't you c-bet. Which ones will he c-bet that don't actually fit his range that well (making his range weak and figuring if it's possible to win the hand either by calling him down or making him fold).

It's complex and it takes work.

#9

5th February 2011, 4:07 PM

fx20736 [2,728]

Originally Posted by LuckyChippy

You need to start thinking of ranges but generally you're right. The reason we flat the hands above is because when we 3-bet nothing worse will call and that defeats the point when we have such a strong hand. Generally they will have a weak range (CO vs BTN) and we want to keep in lots of that range so we make value bets later on when we hit, and make them fold on the right flops where their range doesn't connect well with the flop. Yes that means making them fold when we don't have it.

At the moment it seems like you're talking just in terms of making moves like raising c-bets without any reason why. You are mentioning barrelling scare cards though so there's some thought to how we're going to steal the pot.

I think the first step is to look at flops, both as the c-bettor and facing c-bets and try to figure out ranges on different flop textures. Learn to play pre, learn to play the flop, learn to play the turn, learn to play the river.

For example, what flops do you want to c-bet (REGARDLESS OF YOUR HAND) where you think you have a lot of fold equity. Which ones shouldn't you c-bet. Which ones will he c-bet that don't actually fit his range that well (making his range weak and figuring if it's possible to win the hand either by calling him down or making him fold).

It's complex and it takes work.

Vs. loose players who are somewhat aggressive I tend to c-bet any flop with no more than one Broadway card. These players love to play Ax, Kx and if they call and there is an A or K on the board I'm usually check/folding the turn without a hand. I hate releasing KK here but after losing my Kings to Ace rag a few dozen times, I now know better.

Vs. nits I actually play it the same as vs LAGs as AK makes up a huge part of their range (for a 7/6 nit AK makes up about 1/5 of their preflop raising range) and they fold easily. If a Nit open raises and then checks the flop I often check behind if I don't have any real equity and if they check the turn it almost means AK and I'll raise regardless of what I have.

vs. calling stations who don't do much c-betting or re-raising I will bet dry boards. Unless I have a strong hand I need to protect I often check wet flops especially monotone boards, paired boards and middle straight boards full of 9's,8's & 7's as they are more likely to have hit that flop. If a CS calls two streets I'm usually checking the river unless I have a very poweful hand (Set or better).

Vs. weak tight I pretty much c-bet any flop as they tend to do a lot of set/flush mining and play fit/fold.

Here's an example of a hand where I c-bet two streets vs villain who was 73/32/ 3 for the session. The fact that he didn't bet or raise on the flop with an Af of 3 told me he had nothing: