On 14/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>Look, here's the thing Nick. I don't really care which way people approach>their routes. As long as routes are left as they were found, does it really>matter how anyone else climbs? My feeling is more and more that there are>only two styles of ascent, onsight and dogging. People love to debate how>their particular method of dogging is morally superior to someone else's,>but I can't really be fuched splitting hairs.

Well even onsighting can come down to splitting hairs given that you can still claim an onsight with the gear and/or draws having been put in by someone else.

>The one thing I really find ridiculous is people saving good routes for>the onsight.......which of course they never feel ready for. In my opinion,>rap inspecting, pre placing, ticking footers, then dogging on toprope,>and finally redpointing is still a far better style than sitting in the>campground, talking shit about how you're "saving that one for the onsight"

Well I would have to disagree with you Damo. There are plenty of routes which I am happy not to have done as opposed to claiming the tick after top-rope and/or abseil inspection and thus completely destroying a huge element of the route. At Arapiles I always thought climbs like Delerium Tremens (24), Lois Lane (24), Terminal Drive (24), Tjuringa (25), Ride Like the Wind (25) were all about the ground-up experience. I am surprised when good climbers take the soft option on these routes as they are not death routes and therefore top-rope rehearsal and/or pre-placed gear seems rather lame especially if you have five grades up your sleeve. Some of these routes I have climbed and some of them (such as Tjuringa and Ride Like the Wind) I haven't, but I bet I won't be lying on my death bed wishing I had top-roped the shit of Tjuringa followed up with a psuedo lead on pre-placed gear.

>Here's a couple of grey areas to test your highly developed moral compass.>>1) A bunch of excellent crack routes which don't get much traffic, despite>how good the climbing is (all the 23's and 24's on Windjammer Wall). The>cracks go months without ascents, and are generally coated with sand transported>by runoff.>>Assuming your onsight limit was about 23/24, would it be smartest to;>a) rap the routes and brush them out so that the climbing is easier and>actually pleasant?>b) go ground up, knowing that the climbing will be unnecessarily difficult>and grotty, and an onsight is highly unlikely?>c) climb the routes ground up, hanging on gear as needed to clean the>holds, then do another lap of leading to tick the route?

Why wouldn't you get on the route ground-up and give it a red hot go? What have you got to lose? How do you even know it is too dirty to climb? The thought of rapping down and cleaning a route leaves me stone cold, so cleaning would be a last resort as far as I am concerned.

>>2) Down in the grampians, you stumble upon the most beautiful routes you've>ever seen, with the coolest climbing on the planet. Unfortunately, these>trad and mixed routes are beyond your capabilities via good style (and>you ain't getting any younger). Do you;>>a) accept that you aren't good enough and never will be, then go back>to climbing chossy shit in the Blueys?>b) delude yourself that if you can just commit another 2 hours per week>on the campus board, you'll be able to attempt the routes in good style>at some undetermined point in the distant future?>c) decide to abandon your morals and attempt the routes right now, in>a style which offers the best chances of success (full jiggery-pokery)?

This scenario doesn't even make any sense given that you have said these routes are trad and mixed. Given that bolts are accepted in the Gramps and these routes look like they need bolts, then you would simply rap-inspect the routes and place the bolts with due thought to repeat ascentionists. You would then dog the crap out of the route until you fell up it, just like all top climbers do on routes at their limit.

Totally agree with you Nick about ground-up trouncing any rehearsal from above. In fact I am surprised to read Macciza's little indiscretions about rehearsal from above. My feeling is that once you jump on a rap rope (or top rope) then you have fundamentally changed your approach to the climb as you haven't chosen to the meet the challenges of the climb head-on. If that is the case then I reckon you should be smart about it and take full advantage of the opportunity it affords rather than opting for the half-arsed rap inspection.

To be totally honest, I think a lot of climbers don't fully understand the concept of ground-up and how it can vary from onsighting. I recall only recently having a discussion with Wendy whom when I questioned why she didn't tackle a particular route ground-up said she might tackle it ground-up next time (I had to explain to her that her top-down approach had already nullified her opportunity to attempt the route ground-up).

>Well I would have to disagree with you Damo. There are plenty of routes>which I am happy not to have done as opposed to claiming the tick after>top-rope and/or abseil inspection and thus completely destroying a huge>element of the route. At Arapiles I always thought climbs like Delerium>Tremens (24), Lois Lane (24), Terminal Drive (24), Tjuringa (25), Ride>Like the Wind (25) were all about the ground-up experience. I am surprised>when good climbers take the soft option on these routes as they are not>death routes and therefore top-rope rehearsal and/or pre-placed gear seems>rather lame especially if you have five grades up your sleeve. Some of>these routes I have climbed and some of them (such as Tjuringa and Ride>Like the Wind) I haven't, but I bet I won't be lying on my death bed wishing>I had top-roped the shit of Tjuringa followed up with a psuedo lead on>pre-placed gear.>
If you actually ever get on those routes, then sure, you've done well. But boldly not ever trying them because of your superior ethics is wang.........you're not getting any younger either, last time I checked!

I'm not so sure that Lois Lane is 'spicy but safe' now that 2 people have stripped all the gear and decked. Do you know anyone who's fallen off it and not decked?

>>Why wouldn't you get on the route ground-up and give it a red hot go?>What have you got to lose? How do you even know it is too dirty to climb?

Because you can see the sand and spiders in the crack. Also, from experience of trying to onsight a couple of those unfashionable routes down there.

>The thought of rapping down and cleaning a route leaves me stone cold,>so cleaning would be a last resort as far as I am concerned.

You're a Natimuk princess! Most of the routes down your way are on incredibly clean stone, there's no need to rap clean them at all. At many other crags, either a constant flow of traffic or a periodic dedicated cleaning run are required to keep the route in a climbable condition. I didn't here you whining when Singer spent days cleaning out some of those Buffalo routes last year.........should he have tackled those vertical gardens ground up too?

>This scenario doesn't even make any sense given that you have said these>routes are trad and mixed. Given that bolts are accepted in the Gramps>and these routes look like they need bolts

Not new routes you goose! What if I want to go and repeat something on Taipan which is a couple of grades over my onsight limit. Is it better style to spend 2hrs dogging the gear on from the bottom? Or, given the certainty of not onsighting the thing and the inevitable multi day siege, wouldn't it make sense to just rap the gear in and inspect on the way down?>>Totally agree with you Nick about ground-up trouncing any rehearsal from>above.

Half arsed ground up attempts which result in slumping onto the gear at the first hard move (what Nick said he did on Hungry Eyes) aren't really that impressive either.

>. . . In fact I am surprised to read Macciza's little indiscretions about>rehearsal from above. My feeling is that once you jump on a rap rope (or>top rope) then you have fundamentally changed your approach to the climb>as you haven't chosen to the meet the challenges of the climb head-on.>If that is the case then I reckon you should be smart about it and take>full advantage of the opportunity it affords.

Well I have also said that I think is important to be honest to yourself and others about how and what you do - And yeah, I am not perfect, though I am often a harsh personal critic.
Mostly it is for reasons that I feel are justified after thinking it through and sometimes I make the wrong decisions for me - for better or worse. But I am still here . . .
You rap inspected Titan, from memory, I don't hold that against you, you get points for the honesty - . Anyway don't know that would help much, sometimes it's best not to know . . .
Similarly for me with Gigantor - but I was living there, rapping it, had aided it etc yes i had 'inspected/looked at ' it and we figured it would 'go' but we went from the bottom when we finally tried it . ..
I guess what I am getting at is sometimes rather than take 'full advantage' - it is better to simply allow 'enough' advantage that you survive - and sometimes for sanity's sake . . .

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>If you ever actually ever get on those routes, then sure, you've done well.>But boldly not ever trying them because of your superior ethics is wang.........you're>not getting any younger either, last time I checked!>>(snip) >(simey wrote;)>>Why wouldn't you get on the route ground-up and give it a red hot go?>>What have you got to lose? How do you even know it is too dirty to climb?>>Because you can see the sand and spiders in the crack. Also, from experience>of trying to onsight a couple of those unfashionable routes down there.>>>(simey wrote) The thought of rapping down and cleaning a route leaves me stone cold,>>so cleaning would be a last resort as far as I am concerned.>>You're a Natimuk princess! Most of the routes down your way are on incredibly>clean stone, there's no need to rap clean them at all. At many other crags,>either a constant flow of traffic or a periodic dedicated cleaning run>are required to keep the route in a climbable condition. I didn't here>you whining when Singer spent days cleaning out some of those Buffalo routes>last year.........should he have tackled those vertical gardens ground>up too?>>>(simey wrote;) This scenario doesn't even make any sense given that you have said these>>routes are trad and mixed. Given that bolts are accepted in the Gramps>>and these routes look like they need bolts>>Not new routes you goose! What if I want to go and repeat something on>Taipan which is a couple of grades over my onsight limit. Is it better>style to spend 2hrs dogging the gear on from the bottom? Or, given the>certainty of not onsighting the thing and the inevitable multi day siege,>wouldn't it make sense to just rap the gear in and inspect on the way down?>>>>(simey wrote;) Totally agree with you Nick about ground-up trouncing any rehearsal from>>above.>>Half arsed ground up attempts which result in slumping onto the gear at>the first hard move (what Nick said he did on Hungry Eyes) aren't really>that impressive either.

What is with this 'impressive' thingy?
What ever happened to climbing for climbings sake?
~> It seems to me that climbing a route in whatever 'condition' it presents as, is the nature of the game/fun to be had.

I have been gardening routes, or climbing over same, for years(!), ... it is part and parcel of adventure climbing, but I don't impose that ethic on others, ... ~> paradoxically, this exact same ethic is what shits me most about those who retro routes that I might aspire too.
;-)

On 15/08/2012 shortman wrote:>Cleanin a new line is definetly a no no in my eyes. Even though doin it>on the run is a pain in the arse.

?
~> Contradiction of terms here??>>But cleanin somethin that has been done b4....who gives a shit? If someone>is trying tick it, or chase a grade, or whatever it is some people do,>then each to their own I say.>
Hmm. I wonder if the 'bold climber ethic' extends to not cleaning loose blocks left by the first ascentionist for repeat ascentionists ?

On 15/08/2012 shortman wrote:>Cleanin a new line is definetly a no no in my eyes. Even though doin it>on the run is a pain in the arse.>
There's lots of crack pitches which have taken days of cleaning prior to the first ascents! I think you guys are deluded about how a lot of good popular climbs came to be in the clean and pleasant state you take for granted.

I'm going to send Shortman and Nick Clow up the totally overgrown crack route next to Colditz. You can't actually access the crack, cause it's now just 30m of ferns and mud...........but these guys have such pure ethics that I'm sure they'll float up it.

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>On 15/08/2012 shortman wrote:>>Cleanin a new line is definetly a no no in my eyes. Even though doin>it>>on the run is a pain in the arse.>>>There's lots of crack pitches which have taken days of cleaning prior>to the first ascents! I think you guys are deluded about how a lot of good>popular climbs came to be in the clean and pleasant state you take for>granted.

I just don't agree with it. But probably if I could climb as well as the ODH 'NEW ROUTER' I'd do the same. But I don't, so from my experience, hurling chunks off and having a dig is all part of the fun. I could imagine climbing grade 21+ that this would not be fun at all.

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>I'm going to send Shortman and Nick Clow up the totally overgrown crack>route next to Colditz. You can't actually access the crack, cause it's>now just 30m of ferns and mud...........but these guys have such pure ethics>that I'm sure they'll float up it.

Now there is nothin wrong with pulling on a bit of shrubbery during a balancy moment. It's like routes with trees real close to 'em. Ooooh.....should I have a little dab?

You don't get it. Used to be a good gr17 crack after the f.a. rap gardened it. Now there's no crack, it's just ferns for 30m. No gear, no jamming, it isn't a route anymore.......until someone raps in and does the work required to rebirth the thing

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>You don't get it. Used to be a good gr17 crack after the f.a. rap gardened>it. Now there's no crack, it's just ferns for 30m. No gear, no jamming,>it isn't a route anymore.......until someone raps in and does the work>required to rebirth the thing

Blasphemy!
What is the difference between cleaning and retro-bolting from an ethics perspective?

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>You don't get it. Used to be a good gr17 crack after the f.a. rap gardened>it. Now there's no crack, it's just ferns for 30m. No gear, no jamming,>it isn't a route anymore.......until someone raps in and does the work>required to rebirth the thing

I see what u are saying.

But your using an extreme example.

Out of all the FA's ever done in the entire world, what percentage do you reckon would have been like this?

On 15/08/2012 shortman wrote:>On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>>You don't get it. Used to be a good gr17 crack after the f.a. rap gardened>>it. Now there's no crack, it's just ferns for 30m. No gear, no jamming,>>it isn't a route anymore.......until someone raps in and does the work>>required to rebirth the thing>>I see what u are saying. >>But your using an extreme example.>>Out of all the FA's ever done in the entire world, what percentage do>you reckon would have been like this? >>Fuk. That so sounds like davidn.

On 15/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:>You don't get it. Used to be a good gr17 crack after the f.a. rap gardened>it. Now there's no crack, it's just ferns for 30m. No gear, no jamming,>it isn't a route anymore.......until someone raps in and does the work>required to rebirth the thing

And when I think about a climber doin it for the first time I think it is fine thing indeed in this situation.

On 15/08/2012 shortman wrote:>>I see what u are saying. >>But your using an extreme example.>>Out of all the FA's ever done in the entire world, what percentage do>you reckon would have been like this? >
Almost all the routes at Squamish, for starters. Some of the best rock in the world, but the natural state is for all the cracks to be completely choked with vegetation. It isn't uncommon for f.a.'s to spend 2-3 whole days gardening each pitch!

I'm using extreme examples to point out that often good climbing needs to be prepared and maintained..........it doesn't fit with Nick and Simey's fantasy view of walking up to the base and onsighting a clean and pleasant route. But the fact is that every time that you do get to do that, it's probably facilitated by the traffic which has been through and done the work for you.

On 16/08/2012 wallwombat wrote:>Firebug, at Mt Boyce, was named after Ewebank's method of cleaning - he>pored petrol down the crack line and set it alight.

Wasn't that Fantini?

Regardless, you're spot on. Ray Lassman once described to me the cleaning efforts he and Keith Bell went to on Clockwork Orange - and it was relatively clean to begin with! Turns out the "easy" crack above the steep bit on P2 was the crux on the FA - they took turns going up and scraping mud and veg out of the crack before sending it.