afrigeek wrote:Actually I would disagree with the view held here. I think that most innovation actually occurs during times of war! most of the most useful technologies we have are actually by products of war technologies turned to peaceful use.
GPS was meant for military use. We would have taken far longer to have nuclear power if it hadn't been for World War II, gyroscopes and other imrpoved devices for planes were all invented during times of war.

So i would suggest that the reason the Faey probably developed even mroe than humans is that they are more prone to conflict than humans.

That's pretty accurate. The most astounding technological advances are due to a war.

But even so, you'd have to be at war constantly for thousands of years to be as far advanced as the Faey are if that was the only reason. And humans have in one way or another been at war since the beginning of civilization. And we're so much further away than the Faey that there isn't even really a comparison. I still think that there was outside influence somewhere....either that, or the ones that moved the Faey stayed behind (hence the beginning of the Trinity) and taught the Faey about some of their technology and left bits of it for them. That might also explain the difference in technological advancement.

afrigeek wrote:Actually I would disagree with the view held here. I think that most innovation actually occurs during times of war! most of the most useful technologies we have are actually by products of war technologies turned to peaceful use.
GPS was meant for military use. We would have taken far longer to have nuclear power if it hadn't been for World War II, gyroscopes and other imrpoved devices for planes were all invented during times of war.

So i would suggest that the reason the Faey probably developed even mroe than humans is that they are more prone to conflict than humans.

Quindo Ma wrote:By the way, did you know that war, or conflict prior or after a war is actually the most potent drive for technological development?
What better way than to find out how to kill the other side faster while not becoming victim first? Plus, during these times a lot of laws, regulations, and morality get tossed out of the window.

As I said, war, or the conflict brought by it is the biggest motivator for developing new stuff. But it's not, and never was, the only such thing.

Or do you truly believe that we are currently advancing with the computer tech or genetic research as much as we are because we are at war with someone? What about astronomy or quantum physics?
Yes, some of the stuff remains top secret, and may be ahead of what the average citizens get, but a lot of it comes straight out from the research labs to the market. And some just comes from various professors or researchers doing what is fun for them: finding out new things.

afrigeek wrote:Actually I would disagree with the view held here. I think that most innovation actually occurs during times of war! most of the most useful technologies we have are actually by products of war technologies turned to peaceful use.
GPS was meant for military use. We would have taken far longer to have nuclear power if it hadn't been for World War II, gyroscopes and other imrpoved devices for planes were all invented during times of war.

So i would suggest that the reason the Faey probably developed even mroe than humans is that they are more prone to conflict than humans.

That's pretty accurate. The most astounding technological advances are due to a war.

But even so, you'd have to be at war constantly for thousands of years to be as far advanced as the Faey are if that was the only reason. And humans have in one way or another been at war since the beginning of civilization. And we're so much further away than the Faey that there isn't even really a comparison. I still think that there was outside influence somewhere....either that, or the ones that moved the Faey stayed behind (hence the beginning of the Trinity) and taught the Faey about some of their technology and left bits of it for them. That might also explain the difference in technological advancement.

I don't think they really need outside interferance. Their telepathy is the outside interference. They meet a species, and then they rob their minds of any information they need. Take a bit from this species, take a bit from that species, and you start making leaps and bounds in technological progress. Then have a house who does nothing but science, and you get the advantage.

~Michael

Tin Foil... Still putting down money that its the key for the defeat of the baddies...

Fel, Is it done yet? Probably not, but I don't have anything better to do! Is it done yet? Probably not, but I don't have anything better to do! Ahhh, its done... dang, now what am I going to read???
New books! Yay! let the nagging begin! Is it done yet? Probably not, but I don't have anything better to do! Is it done yet? Probably not, but I don't have anything better to do!...

True, I really have nothing better to do in my free time, I mean, what could be better than reading Fel's stories or being messed with by Spec? Thanks for the fun spec!

Quindo Ma wrote:Or do you truly believe that we are currently advancing with the computer tech or genetic research as much as we are because we are at war with someone?

Today, no. But the roots of such research is in military applications. The space race was not so much about getting to the moon, but in protecting America from the Soviets. Computers, just a way of managing information for new combat systems. I'm not too sure about genetic research, but it isn't too far fetched.

And most major developments in technology have been either made specifically for military applications or very quickly used in the military. One of the first people that Wilbur Wright approached with the airplane was the military. Shipping, horses, the wheel, etc. All either invented to further a war, because of war, or used in war.

MichaelSuave wrote:I don't think they really need outside interferance. Their telepathy is the outside interference. They meet a species, and then they rob their minds of any information they need. Take a bit from this species, take a bit from that species, and you start making leaps and bounds in technological progress. Then have a house who does nothing but science, and you get the advantage.

I have to agree with Michael, that telepathy is probably the factor that helped the Faey to develop further than humans did. But I believe, that it's not only because the faey are stealing technology from other races. Telepathy enables faey to share certain memories and knowledge. New ideas are spreading much faster , misunderstandings and mistakes shouldn't be very common. Scientists can work much closer together, if they are able to pick each others mind literally.

Telepathy is certainly the most important thing, which boosted their advancement.

Fiferguy wrote:Today, no. But the roots of such research is in military applications.

Not always. The true roots of GPS are Marconi's attempts to communicate via wireless, and the mathematics of Newton and the ancient Greeks. The true roots of the space race were Von Braun's dreams of getting into space. Both were civilian ventures long before the military stepped in.

It's a well known fallacy that war fuels discovery. It doesn't. What it does is expand R&D, which explores ideas often thought of long before war began. Even then, it must be remembered that the military is also famous for preventing development. The Jet engine and the Tank are good examples of this. Outside germany at least.

Given the choice between the tried and tested (and which by coincidence currently pays the fees of the top generals) and the new (which would invalidate their skills and hence reasons for employment) they inevitably make the choice which gives them the highest paycheck. This is why R&D often disagree about the feasibility of ideas like Star Wars. Their financial incentives work the other way round. </cynic>

Fiferguy wrote:And most major developments in technology have been either made specifically for military applications or very quickly used in the military. One of the first people that Wilbur Wright approached with the airplane was the military. Shipping, horses, the wheel, etc. All either invented to further a war, because of war, or used in war.

ANTIcarrot wrote:It's a well known fallacy that war fuels discovery. It doesn't. What it does is expand R&D, which explores ideas often thought of long before war began. Even then, it must be remembered that the military is also famous for preventing development. The Jet engine and the Tank are good examples of this. Outside germany at least.

Both are correct, in their own way. Conflict, much more than war itself, is what often leads to certain advances simply because of the need to be better than the other. These advances can come from old ideas newly invented (eg. airplane), or from totally new ideas to kill the other faster (eg. a-bomb).

But at the same time, during peace there are usually a lot more freedoms that allow for a much broader view of things, and of many more ideas that are completely "out of the box", as the saying goes.

Both conflict (and I'm gonna avoid stating war per se for this), and the absence of such allow for technological advancement. But that was never really the point of my earlier post.

I was talking about the other three basic needs for any advancement to occur.
You have to be free of the need for action to survive: you cannot start thinking about the next big step in quantum physics if you have to hunt for food during your waking hours.
You need to have enough people around to make use of whatever you come up with. To share and further develop. It does no good to the world if you invent cold-fusion if the idea dies with you. It also doesn't help if you have this grand idea, but no one else can understand it, you need people to work with you.
And lastly, you need to have someone who will listen to your ideas, and accept them. If you were to go to your local mayor/president/pope and show them this grand new idea of traveling to the next star, and he then executes you on the spot, then things won't really get further.

Quindo Ma wrote:These advances can come from old ideas newly invented (eg. airplane), or from totally new ideas to kill the other faster (eg. a-bomb).

Actually one of the reasons Einstein left Germany before the war started was because he realised that nuclear weapons could be built without too much difficulty.

In fact the only war-invented technology I can think of is the super-sonic research carried out by the Miles Aircraft Company in the UK during WWII, and the reheat engine the M.52 was designed around. (Those familiar with the history of the 'Bell X-1' might wish to look the M.52 up on wikipedia for a few surprises.) Though I am sure there are other examples.

ANTIcarrot wrote:Actually one of the reasons Einstein left Germany before the war started was because he realised that nuclear weapons could be built without too much difficulty.

Err. Not quite. He left before the war, because he was invited to be a guest Lecturer at Princeton University.

His parents were non-observing Jews. That alone was enough to have him done in, let alone being a pacifist, humanitarian. Having a campaign by other German scientists to have his work dismissed probably wouldn't have helped any either.

It's pretty interesting stuff actually. The sonar wasn't originally developed for military use, but the advent of submarines brought about more development in sonar technology. Radars, however, seem to be purely developed for military use, but were later used by civilians.