First with the auction house nerfs with having to farm on a main to get the best items, then with the cloak, it's all obvious that they have explicitly targeted the destruction of the value of having many alts.

Now this has advantages since sometimes you felt it obligatory to have alts to compete with others, especially in making gold or competing in the most hard core guilds with the highest variety of personally controlled characters though it has a small disadvantage (albeit it is indeed probably lesser than the advantage) that sometimes it did make sense to have alts with fun without being forced.

6 chars all 90 with 1 508 ilvl 1 524 ilvl and 3 530+
oh and the one who went from 400 to 496 in 30 minutes because of timeless gear

yes, alts were destroyed this expac, and so devastatingly efficient too!!!

Without the decent trinkets (As DPS always)you are useless, without the legendary cloak and meta gem you are behind 20% by default, counting not having BiS trinkets there is no possible chance for a DPS alt to stand a chance doing anything.

Oh, you are 20%-30% behind with an alt! Looks like you're good for flex raiding which is 30-40% easier than normal... there you can even catch up with the meta and the cloak, and drop more than decent trinkets.
I agree that the grind of the first part of the expansion was a bit alt-unfriendly, and the xp deltas between levels way too high during the first 3-4 patches... but it's been adressed long ago: you have ilvl 496 on day one thanks to timeless isle, enough to get into LFR... I'd say this is very alt-frienldy.

'Monogamy'? Is that one of the ways people in Boringland bore each other?-Curvy

Oh, you are 20%-30% behind with an alt! Looks like you're good for flex raiding which is 30-40% easier than normal... there you can even catch up with the meta and the cloak, and drop more than decent trinkets.
I agree that the grind of the first part of the expansion was a bit alt-unfriendly, and the xp deltas between levels way too high during the first 3-4 patches... but it's been adressed long ago: you have ilvl 496 on day one thanks to timeless isle, enough to get into LFR... I'd say this is very alt-frienldy.

You are clueless.

The average dps of a SoO normal raider is 200-250K, and thats a bad DPSer.

The average dps of a Timeless Isle player because the gear is completely shit and worthless and there is no weapon and decent trinkets is 100K BARELY maybe a bit more the first minute cause of the burst, but it will balance at 100K and below because the gear is shit.

You are behind almost 150-200% to be considered "not being carried" in SoO normal.

Timeless isle should be about catching up the same way Cata/WOTLK heroics where, timeless isle is a worthless waste of time of an excuse of catching up compared to the 5mans of the 2 previous expansions.

The cloak is just even more difference, thats all.

Timeless isle gear should have been 522 ilevel along with a weapon at 522 for 50K coins and trinkets should have been changed already and the game balanced around the changes.

The trinkets from ToT as example during burst are exactly 300% DPS increase for their duration, averagely 20-30 seconds following the PPM's, they are completely unbalanced and broken compared to trinkets up to Cataclysm.

Example on Hunter: both trinkes 520-600K Kill command/160K-200K explosive shot compared to the usual ~150-200K/60-80K when they arent up.

Warlock: 350K Incinerate/600K-1mil Chaos Bolt compared to 150-170K incinerate/340K Chaos bolt, depending if both are up or not.

Trinkets are 200-300% increase in DPS depending on the ability scaling and are BROKEN.

Trinkets and Cloak broke the game completely and DPS alts are a completely waste of time cause you need at least 2 months for the cloak and ToT normal runs before you are considered to not be a waste of raid spot.

Then again, different quality of player..I dont accept being carried because the developers failed to adapt the game so instead of focusing on DPS alts , i just focus on Tanks/Healer that scale better and arent as useless.

You are bitching too much for a heroic raider, because if you think you need more than 1 cloak you are raiding Heroics. Keeping up with the leggendaries on 1-2 alts was not that hard btw

Originally Posted by potis

You are clueless.

I'm not clueless, because that's exactly what I'm doing: running normals (14/14) with my main with the cloak; flex with my 535 war, close to get the second cloak; LFR with my just 90 pally in awful timeless gear (500 ilvl).
Are we talking about an alt-friendly expansion or running heroics with all of your alts?

Last edited by noskillz; 2013-10-03 at 10:23 AM.

'Monogamy'? Is that one of the ways people in Boringland bore each other?-Curvy

And you just proved you are new to the game. I played the game since mid-TBC. I eventually ended up with a huge enterprise that has drained the whole realm of its gold, so trust me when I say they hit at alts with Mop's launch.

You make me laugh so just because you played since mid TBC you are right. please get of your high horse.
they did NOT specificly target alts as mentioned before it was a side effect.

I myself have a few alts to 90 and dont care about rep but still use them to farm mats and use professions. Just baceuse Soirits are soulbound does not mean you cant make a decent living.

The average dps of a SoO normal raider is 200-250K, and thats a bad DPSer.

The average dps of a Timeless Isle player because the gear is completely shit and worthless and there is no weapon and decent trinkets is 100K BARELY maybe a bit more the first minute cause of the burst, but it will balance at 100K and below because the gear is shit.

You are behind almost 150-200% to be considered "not being carried" in SoO normal.

Timeless isle should be about catching up the same way Cata/WOTLK heroics where, timeless isle is a worthless waste of time of an excuse of catching up compared to the 5mans of the 2 previous expansions.

The cloak is just even more difference, thats all.

Timeless isle gear should have been 522 ilevel along with a weapon at 522 for 50K coins and trinkets should have been changed already and the game balanced around the changes.

What an awful idea... 4.3 end time heroics were a horrible, horrible idea.

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Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage

And you just proved you are new to the game. I played the game since mid-TBC. I eventually ended up with a huge enterprise that has drained the whole realm of its gold, so trust me when I say they hit at alts with Mop's launch.

I would like some proof to this claim.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

You are bitching too much for a heroic raider, because if you think you need more than 1 cloak you are raiding Heroics. Keeping up with the leggendaries on 1-2 alts was not that hard btw

I'm not clueless, because that's exactly what I'm doing: running normals (14/14) with my main with the cloak; flex with my 535 war, close to get the second cloak; LFR with my just 90 pally in awful timeless gear (500 ilvl).
Are we talking about an alt-friendly expansion or running heroics with all of your alts?

Alt-friendly means you can at any time switch characters without needing half a year to be useful for your guild, it literally means you are gonna abandon your main 1 day before the patch hits and you will farm so much the first week you are gonna be ready the second week to follow your guild into raiding the new raid because you arent completely useless.

Yes you are behind 20% in DPS doing 15K instead of 20K single target, but right now the difference is over 150% and impossible to be of any use to your guild or someone returning to the game.

Timeless isle does -not- allow that the same way Cata/WOTLK did.

Just because the gear is free, doesnt mean your character is useful.

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Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

What an awful idea... 4.3 end time heroics were a horrible, horrible idea.

Because you have a clue also ;D

Its basic math, if you cant understand basic math and how scaling works, do not post with quotes.

4.3 heroics with some luck , and you were ready to go into normal DS in a few hours, maybe 10 hours of farming with bad luck , you were behind a bit but not completely useless, wear your timeless gear and let me know if you can kill the trash before Immerseus with your 80K dps.

Its basic math, if you cant understand basic math and how scaling works, do not post with quotes.

4.3 heroics with some luck , and you were ready to go into normal DS in a few hours, maybe 10 hours of farming with bad luck , you were behind a bit but not completely useless, wear your timeless gear and let me know if you can kill the trash before Immerseus with your 80K dps.

None of this makes the 4.3 heroics even remotely a good idea. Wrath wasn't even close to the same, at least those heroics were "difficult" and much harder to get into.(No cheap craftable pvp gear to help you cheat the queue system)

No, just because you want it that way doesn't mean its a good idea. Thsi expansion wasn't "mean to alts," it just wasn't as insanely friendly and over the top easy for alts. If you want a game like that, this isn't it.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

None of this makes the 4.3 heroics even remotely a good idea. Wrath wasn't even close to the same, at least those heroics were "difficult" and much harder to get into.(No cheap craftable pvp gear to help you cheat the queue system)

No, just because you want it that way doesn't mean its a good idea. Thsi expansion wasn't "mean to alts," it just wasn't as insanely friendly and over the top easy for alts. If you want a game like that, this isn't it.

I never said they were good, the system was better, at least those heroics were repeated farming of decent gear.

Timeless isle is repeated farming of stupid RNG of insanely worthless gear, if you cant understand that, then i am not sure if i can continue talking to you o.o

As i said above, timeless isle was done the wrong way with crap gear, i never said heroics were awesome, i said the gear scaling was correct.

5.1:
- Grand Commendations are now available for purchase from all Mists of Pandaria faction vendors at Revered reputation. Using a Grand Commendation will permanently increase the amount of reputation gained with that faction across all characters on a Battle.net account. makes it quicker to get required rep for gear

5.2:
- Heroes fortunate enough to acquire a “Key to the Palace of Lei Shen” can bring it to the Shado-Pan on the Isle of Thunder and use it to infiltrate the fabled treasure vaults of the first emperor. Heroes are tasked with grabbing as much loot as they can within five minutes. Larger chests will have the most loot, including special keys that can be used at the end of the run for a chance at epic gear and other major rewards. Keys are awarded from rare bosses, hidden chests around the island, and from award satchels obtained by completing daily quests. give masses of golden charms for bonus rolls in lfr

- Nalak, the Storm Lord
After the Isle of Thunder has been conquered, the gate guardian of the Thunder King's citadel will appear: Nalak, the Storm Lord. Players will frequently have the opportunity to test their mettle against him.
Oondasta
Found in a place that has been lost in time, the great devilsaur lord Oondasta has been outfitted for battle with weaponry and armor by the Zandalari, and awaits players brave enough (or foolhardy enough) to seek him out on the mysterious Isle of Giants found in the seas north of Kun-Lai Summit. free epics for hitting a big bad boss

- All world bosses (Sha of Anger, Galleon, Nalak the Storm Lord, and Oondasta) are now Tap to Faction. This new system offers every eligible player of the same faction that engages a boss the chance to earn loot. Under the new system, players will only be able to earn loot from each world boss once per week. removed group requirement, making it far easier to tap for loot

- Zandalari forces have begun scouting the shores of Pandaria, searching for the perfect invasion point. The Zandalari can be found in Krasarang Wilds, Dread Wastes, Townlong Steppes, Jade Forest, and Kun-Lai Summit. Zandalari Scouts can be handled by 1 or 2 players, while elite Zandalari Warbringers will likely require a full party of 5 heroes. Defeat Warbringers to gain special drops, including crafting materials, reputation gains, an achievement, and even the chance to get one of three new rare mounts! free rep for alts

- Level capped players will now have a chance to earn Lesser Charms of Good Fortune after winning a pet battle versus a pet within 5 levels of the highest level pet on their team. Higher-level pets will offer a better chance to earn a charm.
- Winning a pet battle versus a team within 5 levels of the player's highest-level pet will now award player experience. lesser charms and exp

- The maximum number of Elder Charms of Good Fortune a character can hold has been increased to 20 (was 10). more rolls

- The chance of getting personal loot in Raid Finder and the chance of a successful bonus roll in Raid Finder have been greatly increased for the following raids, Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Spring. more chance for epix

- Heroic Pandaria dungeons now award 100 Justice Points per boss. Gold drops for those bosses have also been changed from a static 50 gold to a 40-60 gold range. Less gold will drop in groups consisting of fewer than 5 players. quicker jp

the fact that everything is gated behind lockouts and dailies.
cata was better because with time and patience you had the chance to gear up an alt in a week and be ready to raid for your guild, in mop a few months are required, and no timeless isle doesn't change the fact that a whole xpac was an alt killing machine.
i hope they learned their lessons and 1) return to the cata way of gearing 2) no more legendary quest chains, long, grindy, boring and orange everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan

I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree. The 4.3 system was awful, and in no way, shape, or form better.

Its not "insanely worthless" as it gets you into LFR, a place where 80k would actually be decent. QUICK catch up mechanics are bad, sorry.

W R O N G L O L

in a game where the exp is a joke, and what only matters is the endgame slow catch up mechs are the worst idea ever because they feel pointless.
also is funny to see how many ppl here pretend to like "the hard way" in wow when wow was easy mode since day 1 in term of exp, mechanics and everything else lol

in a game where the exp is a joke, and what only matters is the endgame slow catch up mechs are the worst idea ever because they feel pointless.
also is funny to see how many ppl here pretend to like "the hard way" in wow when wow was easy mode since day 1 in term of exp, mechanics and everything else lol

Please use a real argument, kthxbye.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -Voltaire

Yes, Ofcourse Blizzard would try and kill off one of if not the biggest reason the majority of people play, I don't know anyone anymore that sticks to one character, You're talking crap I'm afraid, go get some sleep because you're jibbering

The *only* way in which I'd agree with the spirit of this thread is the asinine decision to make Spirits of Harmony soulbound. I'm *drowning* in Harmony on my main, but now that my baby Paladin is All Growed Up™, I have to scramble like mad to get Harmony for his Blacksmithing. It's stupid.

Aside from that, no, this expansion did not try to "kill" alts. I have more level 90 alts than ever I had 85, 80 or 70 alts. Current count is 7, with three more on the way; only one of those hit 90 after 5.4 came out. It's actually the first expansion where two new characters have hit max level compared to the previous expansion [I had three 70s in BC, four 80s in Wrath, five 85s in Cata]. As Gobra said, alts are a major device to keep people playing; Blizzard would be insane to kill off the ability to play alts effectively.

Are all of my alts super-geared? No. Do all of my alts have their cloak? No. Does this mean I can't play them effectively? NO! And let's talk about gearing alts a bit. Name one expansion that made it easy for alts to get gear throughout the entire expansion? Maybe Wrath? I mean, there was TOC5. Cata's midway dungeons, the re-written ZA and ZG, were not particularly alt-friendly; certainly not in comparison to TOC5. I'd argue that heroic Scenarios are probably *more* alt-friendly than ZA/ZG were.

And how about the Isle? Compare the Isle to: original Zul'gurub, Magister's Terrace, the Icecrown Trilogy [for lack of a better name] and the Dragon Soul Trilogy [ditto]. Hell man, you can get gear for your alts *while playing on your main*. We never used to have that ability, outside of heirlooms which were for leveling *only*. Granted, the gear that dropped in ICC5s and DS5s were better by comparison than your typical Timeless Isle gear... but once your main gears up your alts to ~500, they can go to the Isle themselves and start getting Burdens of Eternity [provided you have better reputation with the Random Number Gods than I do; and by all accounts most of you *do*] to produce *significantly* better gear, again by comparison with previous expansions' fast tracks.

Yes, in 5.0, the game sucked for alts in end-game, requiring reputations grinds that were frankly insane. Blizzard realized their mistake and backtracked. Relatively quickly, and made alt-friendly concessions much earlier in the expansion cycle than average. In short, no, this was not an alt-unfriendly expansion.