why do you whiners even fucking care about 5-mans dungeons?
its known that almost everyone runs HC with the LFD tool and its proven that random groups collapse when facing hard content.
thats just how shit goes random group of strangers + hard content = NOT OK
Heroics are PERFECT like they are,want some hard content?go challenge modes

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?
are we not allowed challenging content and character progression for those of use who can't commit to a raid schedule?

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?

Because that would either make raids be too easy, or it would place raids out of reach of too many people.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

This whole system where progression dungeons are easy , and dungeons where you can't get upgrades and which cannot be outgeared are challenging. It makes me wonder : Don't people actually like upgrading their characters anymore?
I don't feel like it's any fun to upgrade my character if I don't have any need of doing that. There is no "Hey you remember when it took forever for us to kill these mobs? " or.. "you remember when these mobs used to 2shot the tank , haha? " .. It feels like you are simply raising the stat numbers. Has the need of having really powerful character gone over the true feeling of getting improvements that you actually need ?

And also this Challenge mode system. I don't really get it at all. Is the epeen raising so fun? To show others: "Look at my gear noobs, I have done some challenging content " . I don't care how others see my gear. I just want to feel myself how my character is getting upgraded. WoW had always been game like this. But to get that I have to be in a part of raiding guild these days.

When I was last time arguing with someone about challenge mode system someone just answered " So it's just about gear! I knew it" .. I mean, he was right. But what is the bad thing in it? Why shouldn't I want to get better gear?

wow what an absolute hypocrite,stop mirroring your terrible morals onto other people,its not because you think gear is important so you can act like ''oh look at my big numbers noobs'' that everyone only thinks of the rewards like you.
It's not because challenge modes reward transmog gear that everyone only runs them for that sole purpose.
Do you even have any idea why Blizz bothered to put up leaderboards?It's so players can show off their times,not their shiny gear.
Anyway good job for not understanding a thing about competitive content and acting like a hypocritical fuck,its ok for you to attach importance to your characters dps numbers but not for someone else to attach importance to their gear?well learn how to respect others and maybe then one day you'll look for challenging content somewhere else then a fucking 5-man heroic dungeon

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 11:22 PM ----------

Originally Posted by gingersenshi

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?
are we not allowed challenging content and character progression for those of use who can't commit to a raid schedule?

Cosmetic rewards mean nothing, they do not help my character improve in any way.

Why?Why?Why?...Because.
Why can't questing be super hard for people who only do leveling and no max level content,so they can do challenging content and at the same progress their character?
Why doesn't level 10-14 PvP reward PvP gear for those who do not have time for high level PvP?
Because,you want gear and hard content?go raid or too bad.
It's not like you can progress your characters' times and actually take a chance at making world rank 1 times but oh no if its not gear its nothing.....

Why not yes or no? You're limiting our choices with something too specific. Of course it's not perfect, but it was a lot better than the previous expansion. Doing something hard with complete strangers that tend to derp around wasn't really fun.

wow what an absolute hypocrite,stop mirroring your terrible morals onto other people,its not because you think gear is important so you can act like ''oh look at my big numbers noobs'' that everyone only thinks of the rewards like you.
It's not because challenge modes reward transmog gear that everyone only runs them for that sole purpose.
Do you even have any idea why Blizz bothered to put up leaderboards?It's so players can show off their times,not their shiny gear.
Anyway good job for not understanding a thing about competitive content and acting like a hypocritical fuck,its ok for you to attach importance to your characters dps numbers but not for someone else to attach importance to their gear?well learn how to respect others and maybe then one day you'll look for challenging content somewhere else then a fucking 5-man heroic dungeon

Wow. I really didn't mean to make anyone THIS angry :O Sorry bout that. But yeah. While I don't get this sentence: " so you can act like ''oh look at my big numbers noobs'' that everyone only thinks of the rewards like you." I do admit gearing is important for me. I find it much funnier to gear up my tank when the mobs actually deal damage. What's the point of improving your character when the character is already overpowered against the mobs? I was just wondering if anyone else feels the same.

I like the idea of challenge modes as an extra content because of the leaderboards But I just don't like the idea of them being solution for 5 man dungeons being too easy overall.
About the challenge mode gear drops. I remember Blizzard saying: "Challenge modes reward you with transmog gear so other players can see you having succesfully completed them. " or something. This made me think that it's so important for players nowadays to raise their epeen with gear that others can't get.

I do respect other players and I do understand it's frustrating for some players to have situations that they find as a roadblock that they cannot overcome. But I honestly don't believe I am the only player who finds it frustrating that all the cool new zones, whole leveling and all the new dungeons have their atmosphere ruined by the same second you step into them because you notice how things feel bugged easy. The feeling is something you cannot erase from your memory. If I want to have something that has difficulty in it as a casual player, my WHOLE content is challenge modes. This feels pretty god damn wrong.

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?
are we not allowed challenging content and character progression for those of use who can't commit to a raid schedule?

Cosmetic rewards mean nothing, they do not help my character improve in any way.

Because it's probably a false fantasy that ultimately won't happen. And the relatively select few people who would utilize would be few and far between. It is a wonderful fantasy, but it just isn't worth it. While they could just throw the loot tables on to challenge modes as they are now (I think it'd be an interesting experiement though Blizzard might've tried this out already internally during beta) I think the design is to not clutter the experience where the stopwatch is the real enemy.

People usually lean towards getting X the quickest, most efficient route. When all you get are some blues to help you get in to raiding, most people will just do random heroics. Between doing dailies, profession grinding and all the other stuff the expansion has, I think less people are interested in spending 3 hours in a dungeon where they might not even get anything but repair bills.
Again, it is a wonderful fantasy. But after a couple of days of doing dungeons, fond memories aside, you will want to just get your shit done and at that point gearing through challenge modes will become extremely unappealing.

And then you'll have the people who realize this and then demand a special Challenge Mode ilvl of blues.

wow what an absolute hypocrite,stop mirroring your terrible morals onto other people,its not because you think gear is important so you can act like ''oh look at my big numbers noobs'' that everyone only thinks of the rewards like you.
It's not because challenge modes reward transmog gear that everyone only runs them for that sole purpose.
Do you even have any idea why Blizz bothered to put up leaderboards?It's so players can show off their times,not their shiny gear.
Anyway good job for not understanding a thing about competitive content and acting like a hypocritical fuck,its ok for you to attach importance to your characters dps numbers but not for someone else to attach importance to their gear?well learn how to respect others and maybe then one day you'll look for challenging content somewhere else then a fucking 5-man heroic dungeon

---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 11:22 PM ----------

Why?Why?Why?...Because.
Why can't questing be super hard for people who only do leveling and no max level content,so they can do challenging content and at the same progress their character?
Why doesn't level 10-14 PvP reward PvP gear for those who do not have time for high level PvP?
Because,you want gear and hard content?go raid or too bad.
It's not like you can progress your characters' times and actually take a chance at making world rank 1 times but oh no if its not gear its nothing.....

How does being number 1 on a leaderboard I've never looked at help my character in anyway?
Does it allow me to kill stuff quicker? no
Does it allow me to survive longer? no

Some of us don't play the game for the epeen waving around the mailbox in ironforge.
Challenge modes are going to come down to cookie cutter classes and setups once they're all figured out anyway, and since gear doesn't play a part in it,
if you're not a lvl 90 *insert class here* go home.

I really wonder if there should be a ilvl cap on heroics as there is on challenge modes. If the whole group is around min ilvl for heroics the runs are not that easy really. Ppl with 30 ilvl over the cap with full gemmed and enchanted gear .. of course the dungs will be snooze fest.

Originally Posted by gingersenshi

Some of us don't play the game for the epeen waving around the mailbox in ironforge.
Challenge modes are going to come down to cookie cutter classes and setups once they're all figured out anyway, and since gear doesn't play a part in it,
if you're not a lvl 90 *insert class here* go home.

Saying in the same paragraph I don't play for epeen and I want better gear from it or I won't do it is surprising. And talking about cookie cutter classes ... it's exactly the same situation as arenas. There are a few cookie cutter setups and ppl play other setups no problem.

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?
are we not allowed challenging content and character progression for those of use who can't commit to a raid schedule?

Daily quest mobs shouldn't require epic gear to kill, you can kill them quickly enough with heroic gear, they're designed to be balanced around people in freshly dinged green gear. If you insist on being ludicrously over geared, LFR will be out shortly - why you need more than raid gear, designed to kill raid bosses, to kill a quest mob, is beyond me.

Originally Posted by gingersenshi

Cosmetic rewards mean nothing, they do not help my character improve in any way.

They improve how your character looks and your own ability to play said character if you're working on hard content and clearing it.

Your character won't increase at a similar pace to people clearing raid content if you're not willing to raid, because you flat out don't need that gear. If you want meaningless gear upgrades for the sake of prancing around in purple gear, you can grind out rep gear or faceroll through LFR, but there's challenging 5man content out there - if you want a challenge, do that. If you want gear advancement, do LFR or grind out your VP gear. If that gear isn't enough for you to speed through your dailies, then you'll have to put in the effort and raid or admit that you've hit a self-produced gear-wall for your self-imposed gearing ambitions.

Heroics are the new normals, because there ARE no normal mode max level dungeons - blizzard really should have named them LFD difficulty to parallel LFR, would have saved a lot of confusion and complaints.

If you want a challenging 5man experience, surprisingly, challenge modes are where it's from and trust me, it's challenging.

Want gear advancement? VP and LFR -> Normals -> Heroics. You'll get as good a degree of gear as you're willing to put effort in, you'll also get a degree of gear suitable to the content you're playing, you don't need heroic gear to run LFR and do daily quests.

Blizzard is providing plenty of options here - if you've not got the time and / or skill and / or motivation to clear one of them, then that's your choice and a perfectly okay one to make, you can enjoy the game without wearing the biggest numbers.

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?
are we not allowed challenging content and character progression for those of use who can't commit to a raid schedule?

Why you can't get upgrades from challenge modes? Because fighting over loot doesn't work in a timed dungeon maybe? Because when you make challenge modes into a way to gear up it will cause people to swarm there, fail hideously, cry for nerfs, get the nerfs implemented and then you'll be here complaining about that.

Challenge modes can be very hard purely because they're outside the gearing-sequence, stuff in the gearing-path needs to be accessible, so you can choose: gear upgrades or challenge, can't have it both in this game,

Just didn't bother reading the last page did you.
Yes challenge modes are fine, but why can we not get upgrades from it?

Because as soon as upgrades are available from it they become part of gear progression and as such necessary for anyone and everyone to run. This makes them subject to tuning, nerfs, complaints, and possible outgearing. Currently these dungeons are tuned to be hard now as well as in patch 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 6.0, 7.0, etc. You'll essentially never outgear the challenge and basically can play "beat the clock" against yourself if you hold the best time.

Originally Posted by gingersenshi

are we not allowed challenging content and character progression for those of use who can't commit to a raid schedule?

They added LFR for people outside a raid schedule and you can still find a few PUGs here and there to try the real thing. Someone else already said it, but they are desperately doing everything in their power to not repeat 4.0-4.2 where they started hemorrhaging accounts and money. You cannot have Hardcore pre-raid content as part of the progression system without dire consequences that will affect you (and they will affect you.)

If you honestly think the only difference between LFR, Normal, and Heroic gear is the color you really don't know what you're talking about. And I can guarantee you someone transmogged into the Challenge sets has absolutely no issues dealing with daily quest mobs.

Originally Posted by gingersenshi

Cosmetic rewards mean nothing, they do not help my character improve in any way.

The cosmetic transmog gear is to counterbalance a lot of complaints about stuff people miss from Vanilla and TBC. With gated content and gearing at the time, players were able to recognize, say, Tier 3 armor and be like "Wow, that guy is clearing Naxxramas! Holy crap!" and there was a visual sense of accomplishment. Challenge-mode transmog sets are going to be the equivalent to that now, because there will be very, very few people with the gear. The cosmetic part is meant to denote elitism and accomplishment way more than heroic raiding since it can never be outgeared. Also, who's to say they won't start removing it over time as levels increase to insure that you can't outlevel the content as well. Then fewer of these items will exist and the prestige of them goes up. Honestly I think the system is aligned perfectly unless you're one of those people who are either just never happy or have absolutely no chance of acquiring desired challenge mode gear and just want to bitch that it's pointless.

Anyone else think Jaime Lannister only has the Kingslayer title because he was just too lazy to kill the king on heroic mode?

I seriously hope there are no reasons at all to run these heroics next tier and the tiers after that. I'm in ilvl 455 or something and they already feel like wotlk and 4.3 heroics while you are overgeared. The only thing that matters is how fast you can finish them now.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 02:27 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Axethor

I still get groups who cant successfully clear Shado-pan Monastery. Clicking the corpses too hard.

Honestly, I feel that they are in a good place. Difficult enough so you can't afk clear (yet), but easy enough a group of 5 random people can eventually complete it.

Took me a few runs to figure that out, with the corpses. No one says anything about tactics or whatever because it is just not needed. First few runs I had through these new dungeons I didn't know anything what was going to happen and cleared everything without anyone saying a word.
I died once because of that whirlwind thing that boss in scarlet monestary (or halls) does. I don't even bother anymore to ask something or say it's my first time in that dungeon because everytime I did no one said a word and everything went just fine.

I'm not the kind of player that slacks but when Blizzard makes content like this (content you have to do to progress) I seriously can't be bothered anymore just like a lot of other players. Before we always discussed at least something at a boss in heroics. Maybe one mechanic that was important or maybe more.

fine the way they are. ive played since 2006 and i like that i can get in a dungeon, get what i need and get out quickly. i am by no means a top tier player but im also not some random noob who doesnt know that im doing. i dont think its fun to do a dungeon over and over that i know is going to take me an hour at least to complete. i seem to remember VERY clearly back in BC people only wanting to run mechanar and slave pens because you could get 3 badges (or however many it was) in about 15 mins with very little effort.

people look back and say that the harder heroics of BC were amazing and everyone loved them. that couldnt be further from the truth. i remember people hating shattered halls and shadow labs because they were long and took forever. i find it funny now that people ask for heroics of that difficulty again and when blizzard tries to bring something like that back (beginning of cataclysm) people complain. then when they take thing back to the easier dungeons of wrath....people STILL complain.

mists heroics are fine the way they are. quick and easy. the BC style heroics are fun the first couple times then they just become a chore to work through. ill take the quick 15 min runs over that any day.

If there was a good reward at the end of longer dungeons like an epic piece that would help. Most ppl have mindset of grinding points versus having fun and challenging yourself. I wish we can have both but for now it looks like one or the other. Seems that now the rewards for heroics aren't worth doing it very often.