no, I have no experience in rejecting "real deities" seeing how I'm an atheist. But I like how you twisted the subject to be more in-line with your objections to the whole thing, to make me look like an idiot and you the smart(cough) one. As if I'm just an idiot going about his day...I mean this something you added along the way: not even mentioned in your OP.

True, but Nam's stating he wouldn't even try. He says he'd choose - actually choose - eternal torture first. My speculation is that that is a ridiculous claim to make. Why? Because it is ludicrous to claim you could stand up to the agony. You wouldn't actually choose it, is my speculation. When it comes to the actual reality of this whole scenario (that's what we're considering here) he wouldn't be such a badass as he's making himself out to be. Just typing bold claims of rejecting an actual real god is pretty easy on the internets.

Here watch -

"I would choose eternal torture over worshiping Bible god it it was shown to actually exist!"

See how easy that was? Nothin' to it.

Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

But it still comes to sucking Superman's dick. If tortured long enough, anyone would suck Superman's dick. Which still dosen't mean you are going to automatically going to like it, save for Stockholm syndrome. Or also is a moot point because Superman is a fictional character.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

worship because I am too transfixed by fear to do anything else is not worship.

Why not? Why can't those be worship?

I believe worship must be volunteered, otherwise it is coerced .......and there goes any freewill.Adoration and reverence aren't expressed by abject terror.Acting from fear isn't a form of worship, it is just a fear response, unless you want to change the meaning of worship.

I am not arguing Nam's corner at all, but one thought occurred, what about all the true believers that have grievously sinned believing they'd burn.Are they not evidence of people who have done what Nam says he'd do?

I don't know. That's not the point of the thread though.

It is in that if we can see evidence of true believers acting in such a way as to condemn themselves to an eternity of hellfire, then Nam is not claiming anything unheard of.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 09:49:15 AM by kin hell »

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

Thank you for recognizing this Hatter. Bold claims of standing up to powerful deities are easy to make on the internets, but there is simply no basis for any person to claim what they would or wouldn't do in such a situation. It's arrogance of the highest order.

If the Biblegod was to be proven true (that's the assumption we're basing this whole scenario on) I would speculate we'd all at least attempt to worship it in the face of eternal torture.

Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

Thank you for recognizing this Hatter. Bold claims of standing up to powerful deities are easy to make on the internets, but there is simply no basis for any person to claim what they would or wouldn't do in such a situation. It's arrogance of the highest order.

If the Biblegod was to be proven true (that's the assumption we're basing this whole scenario on) I would speculate we'd all at least attempt to worship it in the face of eternal torture.

...and this goes straight back to my first reply where I asked you do you think you can deny your morality and actually worship the god, or are you talking about lip service abject fear quake in boots lie and hope you dont get found out?

......because I just cannot see that as worship for the reasons I gave last post.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

True, but Nam's stating he wouldn't even try. He says he'd choose - actually choose - eternal torture first. My speculation is that that is a ridiculous claim to make. Why? Because it is ludicrous to claim you could stand up to the agony. You wouldn't actually choose it, is my speculation. When it comes to the actual reality of this whole scenario (that's what we're considering here) he wouldn't be such a badass as he's making himself out to be. Just typing bold claims of rejecting an actual real god is pretty easy on the internets.

Here watch -

"I would choose eternal torture over worshiping Bible god it it was shown to actually exist!"

See how easy that was? Nothin' to it.

Thank you for having the honesty to say this. I don't think you are projecting in the slightest. It is awfully easy to be an internet tough guy, but when you have a gun pressed up against your temple most will crumble. When faced with torture, EVERYONE will eventually crumble. Every government knows that, and takes that into account when doing intelligence missions.

But it still comes to sucking Superman's dick. If tortured long enough, anyone would suck Superman's dick. Which still dosen't mean you are going to automatically going to like it, save for Stockholm syndrome. Or also is a moot point because Superman is a fictional character.

I've had a gun pointed at my face once. You know what my thought was: well, it was going to happen sooner or later. I've also been stabbed, almost got my lung but the dude used his pocket knife. One of those little ones. Still have the scar.

I didn't piss my pants either time. And I know tougher guys than me, and they didn't tremble at a gun being pointed at them or when they actually got shot.

So, you seem to be just like Hal, thinking you know the minds of everyone.

Yes, people get tortured but they'd say anything to get it to stop. Now, one can assume I just proved Hal's point but no: there's a difference in saying what someone wants to hear and fucking them over later 'cause they obviously didn't mean it. See, if they actually wanted it to stop for good, they'd mean it; and since they don't mean it: it'll never stop and they will always be in defiance.

I believe worship must be volunteered, otherwise it is coerced .......and there goes any freewill.Adoration and reverence aren't expressed by abject terror.Acting from fear isn't a form of worship, it is just a fear response, unless you want to change the meaning of worship.

But again back to the point - we're taking about what we'd do in the face of an experience no human has ever had. So along those lines, how do you know you wouldn't really end up worshiping it? You've never faced a real god of any kind. You seem to be so sure you wouldn't, but you have no human experience to base it on.

...and this goes straight back to my first reply where I asked you do you think you can deny your morality and actually worship the god, or are you talking about lip service abject fear quake in boots lie and hope you dont get found out?

Well, I'd god damn sure try to fake it - I'd do anything to try to get out of Hell. You're god damn right. Anyone who says otherwise, IMHO, is trying to comprehend infinity.

Quote

......because I just cannot see that as worship for the reasons I gave last post.

I do not know what Biblegod would accept as "worship". Maybe trying is all that counts, but I have no idea.

I believe worship must be volunteered, otherwise it is coerced .......and there goes any freewill.Adoration and reverence aren't expressed by abject terror.Acting from fear isn't a form of worship, it is just a fear response, unless you want to change the meaning of worship.

But again back to the point - we're taking about what we'd do in the face of an experience no human has ever had. So along those lines, how do you know you wouldn't really end up worshiping it? You've never faced a real god of any kind. You seem to be so sure you wouldn't, but you have no human experience to base it on.

Hold on mate

are you saying that no one has ever gone against biblegod?

So Eve never ate the apple?

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

...and this goes straight back to my first reply where I asked you do you think you can deny your morality and actually worship the god, or are you talking about lip service abject fear quake in boots lie and hope you dont get found out?

Well, I'd god damn sure try to fake it - I'd do anything to try to get out of Hell. You're god damn right. Anyone who says otherwise, IMHO, is trying to comprehend infinity.

Quote

......because I just cannot see that as worship for the reasons I gave last post.

I do not know what Biblegod would accept as "worship". Maybe trying is all that counts, but I have no idea.

OK that does change things somewhat.

..........personally, .....threatened by eternal torment, I'd be lying my head off and attempting "worshipping"

It wouldn't really be worship, because (unless I was not me any more), my internal dialogue would be watching me sell myself out to this celestial bully.

But I'd be seen to be actively butt kissing with the best of them.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

I think it's actually difficult to know what you'd do unless you've been put in a similar situation. I know what I would like to do. But torture is very good at cracking a man, even those who are toughest to crack and we're only talking about the finite methods of human torture. Add that it's never ending. The pain will never stop. Ever. No moment of peace. For all your principles for all that you believe in and stand up for, could well be broken through torture just so that you bend to God's will. One might become vigilant and strong through human torture and have the will power to resist it to the very end (and it's a lot of willpower and no doubt some level of training). With hell, there is no end, no death, no heroes to save you, no mercy. It's a horrible and sick think once you start trying to think about it, trying to understand what it's like, but to be honest, that's very difficult.

Even though we cannot know a person's mind, I think it's a pretty bold claim to say you'd rather the torture, I think it's easier to make when you're not being faced with the situation.

This is why I often claim that God doesn't offer free will. In essence God only offers 2 choices because all your actions are only a means to your end and there's two possible ends. Eternal bliss or eternal torture. I would VERY much hate to worship such a God, I would have to lie to myself and delude myself into a state of mind where I am able to worship this God and live by this God's laws. I would feel dirty but would have to learn to deal with it and it might not make heaven blissful for me, but I'd have time to try and come to terms with that.. Although I have my principles, I suspect that in the end it will come to self preservation.

However, I have thought of something. Would one be able to meditate themselves into a state of self-hypnosis where you are detached from all pain? Would God try to break that barrier down to ensure your suffering.

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

While I don't think that particular example has bearing on this situation(remember Eve was, not knowing the difference between right and wrong, and not knowing pain, the term niave isn't remotely strong enough.)

However I think to things like this when theists go "if God revealed himself, people just wouldn't do wrong out of fear, there would be no faith" Um haven't you read your own Bible? There are plenty of people in it that have met and talked with God, and still disobey him.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Quite true. But you made note of all the differing reactions. You are aware of many types of reactions to all kinds of experiences humans endure. Follow this through and you'll figure out the point.

HAL, your assumption that a human being is not capable of determining how he or she would react in any given situation unless they had already been there before and/or had heard about how others reacted is highly flawed. I don't know how astronauts felt when they went into space. Quite frankly, I just don't give a shit. However, I know how I'd react because I know more about myself than everyone else, and that includes you. You are underestimating the knowledge one has of oneself, or perhaps projecting your own lack of knowledge on us. Just because you don't know something about someone doesn't mean they don't know it either.

If BibleGod were shown to exist as the nearly omnimax deity described in the Bible texts, then I have my doubts about whether there will be a need for worship. From the overwhelming majority of Biblical texts, it appears that the concept of worshiping God was more on man than on the God man's worship was directed at. God's deal with man seemed to be mostly centered around man being obedient to Him as opposed to worshiping Him.

It always comes back to the question of why an all powerful self sustaining being would need to be worshipped. The idea of worship to me in many ways comes across as being quite silly. Worship in the Bible looks a lot like hype as all it appears to do is "pump up" the proclaimed greatness of the people of the Bible's God.

That said, if Biblegod was shown to exist, I doubt that there would be a need or compulsion from Him to make people worship Him. I would give Him praise and thanks where it was due and ask Him a ton of "why the hell did you"........ type questions before my mind would allow me to go into worship mode, if that were even possible as I'm not big on idols.

HAL, your assumption that a human being is not capable of determining how he or she would react in any given situation unless they had already been there before and/or had heard about how others reacted is highly flawed.

Oh you can find lot's of situations where you could probably determine how you would react - such as eating a flavor of ice cream you hate just because your grandmother made it, or even an extreme example - choosing to have your tooth drilled on without numbing it to show your toughness. Good for you.

Stating you can enduring eternal torture, in front of adults on the internets, is not an impressive move. Uttering such a thing is laughable and shows that you have no comprehension of what were really talking about. Like I said - we're all tough guys on the internets - Nam being the toughest of the tough. You and he would buckle so fast it wouldn't even be funny - but go ahead and tell us again how you know yourself so well you could take eternal torture. It's entertaining.

Your preferences are not my preferences. That's why they're called "your preferences" and "my preferences" rather than "our preferences".

As I've already explained, you're basically just being an internet tough guy when it comes to this topic, as is Nam. It's very easy to type out tough stances like this on forums. "Oh I've withstood staple guns, bee stings, or weapons being pointed at me - so bring it on Biblegod!" That's so far from the reality of this scenario if it were to become real that your puny mind cannot even begin to comprehend the ramifications.

The claim that you would prefer real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture is laughable. Your claim of this "preference" is not a believable stance, because you couldn't even take a few minutes of torture such as water boarding or any number of other very, very nasty things I can think up. You would buckle immediately. You'd be on your knees begging to do anything to stop it - and we're only talking minutes at a time, not to mention combining several at once. You are no tough guy who is able to withstand even human torture methods. Give me a f*cking break and stop making these grandiose statements of toughness.

I will make one caveat - if you are insane then I would understand your thinking that you would have a preference of real eternal torture to {not} real eternal torture. Are you insane?