If you have a complaint about how some one is being treated here, use the "report" function and/or leave a PM with a mod or admin. Both these actions get quick and appropriate responses. Your characterization here of this forum is not quite accurate, but simply become the change you want to see, which could start in this very thread.

How wholesome is it that someone who themselves is not fully convinced of the Buddha's teachings nor is thoroughly educated and attained in them (which refers to many people who consider themselves "Buddhists" or "aspiring Buddhists"), encourages others to be convinced of the Buddha's teachings and to practice accordingly?

And secondly, there is the danger of unilaterally setting oneself up as another's teacher, and even as the one and only means that another person may have to reach enlightenment. How wholesome is that?

I'm not against niceness; I do think though that there is a real danger of developing a kind of codependent or otherwise unhealthy relationship with others, be they newcomers or oldheads.

I don't think it is wholesome to consider oneself responsible for another person's faith in Buddhism, at least not as long as one isn't significantly advanced yet.

binocular wrote:I think that people who are really interested will stick around, even if this means enduring some harsh treatment.

maybebut/i/still/dont/see/why/they/should/be/made/to/endure/that

Nobody suggested that they should be made to endure harsh treatment.

It's just that if one sets out on a path of effort - whether it is worldly effort or spiritual effort - one is likely to encounter obstacles and setbacks. It probably won't be plain sailing. In that sense, one ought to get ready for some trouble.That's just how life is, for most people.

Again, I'm not condoning or justifying harsh treatment. It's just that one can operate out of only that much faith and attainment as one actually has, not out of as much as one wishes one would have, or out of as much as one deludes oneself into believing one has. One needs to be realistic about these things, in regards to oneself and in regards to others, whether one is a newbie or an oldhead.

Last edited by binocular on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

It's not actually that hard to not be an asshole, especially if you meditate as many here claim to do.

If there's one place on the internet that should eschew harsh speech, it should be a Buddhist forum. The sentiment expressed here by many seems to be something along the lines of: "Toughen up, it's the way of the world." - Sure, we should be used to putting up with this from those who do not practice the Dhamma, but those who practice Dhamma should strive to be nice people, not to be caustic or snappy to those who ask questions they've heard a millions times, or to those who express a view point that one disagrees with. There's nothing more detrimental to the overall health and longevity of a discussion forum than an unwelcoming atmosphere, caused by a bunch of people that see it as their duty to shoot down and destroy any view that doesn't accord with their own. I've seen it happen to more than one place, and I'd hate to see it happen here. We should endeavour to cultivate harmony here on the board. It's one thing to wish for someone's happiness, it's another thing altogether to take action to try and make it so.

mettaJack

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

You might be able to copy-paste a space.On a PC, you can move with the cursors to an space in the post you're replying to, mark it with the mouse or Shift+cursor key, click Ctrl+c, and then click Ctrl+v wherever you need a space.

BlackBird wrote:It's not actually that hard to not be an asshole, especially if you meditate as many here claim to do.

If there's one place on the internet that should eschew harsh speech, it should be a Buddhist forum. The sentiment expressed here by many seems to be something along the lines of: "Toughen up, it's the way of the world." - Sure, we should be used to putting up with this from those who do not practice the Dhamma, but those who practice Dhamma should strive to be nice people, not to be caustic or snappy to those who ask questions they've heard a millions times, or to those who express a view point that one disagrees with. There's nothing more detrimental to the overall health and longevity of a discussion forum than an unwelcoming atmosphere, caused by a bunch of people that see it as their duty to shoot down and destroy any view that doesn't accord with their own. I've seen it happen to more than one place, and I'd hate to see it happen here. We should endeavour to cultivate harmony here on the board. It's one thing to wish for someone's happiness, it's another thing altogether to take action to try and make it so.

mettaJack

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

I think it's more fun to figure out how to skillfully respond to rudeness than it is to tell others to stop being rude. Or, to figure out how to not be rude myself. Or, figure out how to respond when someone perceives what I said as rude, when I didn't mean to be rude. Anyway, the only gains I can see happening are by "being the change you wish to see."

But really, I don't see that much of a problem on DhammaWheel that needs all that much fixing really. I guess others have a different perception of the atmosphere here. The moderators do a great job of taking care of the stuff that crosses the line, and the rest I chalk up to the imperfections of human behavior. Which leaves the bulk of it, which I think is just fine - welcoming, accepting of different viewpoints and levels of familiarity with the Dhamma and so forth.

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

kirk5a wrote:I think it's more fun to figure out how to skillfully respond to rudeness than it is to tell others to stop being rude. Or, to figure out how to not be rude myself. Or, figure out how to respond when someone perceives what I said as rude, when I didn't mean to be rude. Anyway, the only gains I can see happening are by "being the change you wish to see."

But really, I don't see that much of a problem on DhammaWheel that needs all that much fixing really. I guess others have a different perception of the atmosphere here. The moderators do a great job of taking care of the stuff that crosses the line, and the rest I chalk up to the imperfections of human behavior. Which leaves the bulk of it, which I think is just fine - welcoming, accepting of different viewpoints and levels of familiarity with the Dhamma and so forth.

The best way to be nice is to speak directly to the point. Niceness is good, but understanding is better. If everyone cloaked themselves in a veil of niceness, we'd be like an Asian society, where you just can't figure out what people really mean, because they are always smiling.

This isn't a monastery or a meditation retreat, its a forum. In forums, we exchange ideas, thoughts and opinions.

BlackBird wrote:There's nothing more detrimental to the overall health and longevity of a discussion forum than an unwelcoming atmosphere, caused by a bunch of people that see it as their duty to shoot down and destroy any view that doesn't accord with their own. I've seen it happen to more than one place, and I'd hate to see it happen here. We should endeavour to cultivate harmony here on the board. It's one thing to wish for someone's happiness, it's another thing altogether to take action to try and make it so.

mettaJack

---------------Dear BlackBirdOnce I wrote the truthAbout certain kind of peopleI was punished so bad I did loseThe right to post pictures for two daysMy post was removed..they didn't approveI learned my hard lessons... that even the truthIf unkind..if hurting people..not make things smooth Then I better forget the truth....I must learn only to be good!!!

People will read into things what they will, no-one can please everyone, and treating newcomers with kids gloves or with some special niceness is fake and only infantilizes newcomers.

Some people are pointed, and others will interpret this in various ways. This perception of rudeness is at times for no other reason than how people communicate. Yet I would say fallacious arguments are far ruder, and these can be put in the nicest possible way.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

BlackBird wrote:There's nothing more detrimental to the overall health and longevity of a discussion forum than an unwelcoming atmosphere, caused by a bunch of people that see it as their duty to shoot down and destroy any view that doesn't accord with their own. We should endeavour to cultivate harmony here on the board. It's one thing to wish for someone's happiness, it's another thing altogether to take action to try and make it so.

For the most part, I agree with your post, to a large extent, but there is also this point by alan I agree with:

alan wrote:This isn't a monastery or a meditation retreat, its a forum. In forums, we exchange ideas, thoughts and opinions.

This is a forum and there are bound to be some debates and disagreements. It is not an encyclopedia where people come and get info and move along. It is interactive and includes discussion on an almost infinite amount of topics (from cittānupassanā to circumcision) However, debating can be done with courtesy and politeness, but it cannot always be done harmoniously and with everyone agreeing with each other all the time. An example might be someone who comes and is sure that the Buddha was a God or that he worshiped a Creator-God and that he taught Atman. This is a Buddhist board, so there are bound to be those (and there should be) who will set the record straight.

On other less obvious doctrinal issues, where there are many diverging views within Buddhism, then of course I agree people should not cling too much and exercise more caution and gentleness, which for the most part people have been doing.

[quote="Cittasanto"]People will read into things what they will, no-one can please everyone, and treating newcomers with kids gloves or with some special niceness is fake and only infantilizes newcomers.quote]-----------Dear Cittasanto

Cittasanto wrote:People will read into things what they will, no-one can please everyone, and treating newcomers with kids gloves or with some special niceness is fake and only infantilizes newcomers.quote]-----------Dear Cittasanto

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

As a satsang, it is more aligned with what the Buddha exampled in bringing Buddhahood Marga to others.

Isn't it true that the Buddha did not sit out in a park under trees and with birds and deer and human souls, He did not then slap down a book on the grass and say "read". He gave satsang, and those assembled heard, asked, asked others wbat they heard, and the Buddha exampled the behaviour of satsang and showed the example.

Isn't a forum an amazing assemble of satsang and a chance to example the satsang of Lord Buddha?

That is why it is better than a book for aspirants. Those who Know can be leaders of satsang, and those who do not know such as myself will want to sit with you and the assemblage. The forum is like a park or a garden where even deer are not afraid to gather. Or it can be like a zoo, and perhaps the deer do not want to stay for very long.

I do not understand rudeness ever from those who are leaders in satsang. Where and who was rude makes a huge difference to "newbies" such as myself.

In an ideal forum, perhaps, but for a Dhamma talk or discussion the disciples pay full attention to the teacher's discourse. They do not interrupt the teacher while he/she is speaking, and they will wait for a suitable opportunity to ask a question, raising their hands in añjali before speaking. While the disciple is speaking, the other disciples and the teacher listen, until he/she has finished.

On a forum, discussions inevitably get interrupted. Both teachers and disciples come and go as they please while the conversation continues in their absence. Perhaps some are listening to music, or doing other tasks at the same time too.

Now, what would happen during a Dhamma talk (Satsang) if someone drifts by playing his MP3 player, stands at the back listening a bit, and then blurts out a question while the teacher is speaking? Perhaps the disciples or the teacher might be annoyed by this rude interruption, and tell the interloper to switch off his MP3 player, sit down, and listen a bit before asking a question later when its more appropriate.

No it's not. Speaking directly to the point might help in many circumstances, but in others it just hurts people's feelings and leaves them dejected.The Buddha could do it with compassion, because he knew the mind of the interloper, and he knew that it was the most effective method of teaching him.

None of us have the Buddha's knowledge.

If you can honestly tell me that every time you've been curt and snappy to someone you've done so with a mind full of compassion then the only thing I can say is that I disagree with the method, but I highly doubt it. More likely is that often when these kind of responses come up, it's because we have an unwholesome frame of mind.

Niceness is good, but understanding is better. If everyone cloaked themselves in a veil of niceness, we'd be like an Asian society, where you just can't figure out what people really mean, because they are always smiling.

This isn't a monastery or a meditation retreat, its a forum. In forums, we exchange ideas, thoughts and opinions.

I find it amusing that you and others somehow assume that if we're going to be nice and pay attention to the feelings of others, that that will somehow mean the end of debate and discussion. That not being irate and snappy at people all will somehow result in the extreme of an East Asian society. There's a difference between speaking frankly and doing so in a way that blatantly disregards the feelings of others. Alan, I like you as a person, we agree on a lot of things, but not this. Here I think you're dead wrong, and this is a case in point of me completely disagreeing with you without being a dick about it.

This isn't a monastery or a meditation retreat, I am quite aware of this fact. I am also aware that this is a forum, and in case you haven't noticed - We are exchanging ideas, thoughts and opinions. And whats more, there's disagreement. But it doesn't have to turn septic. It can and should be amicable. Because if it's anything other than that - Then according to the Buddha in the simile of the saw, we're not practicing his teachings.

Hope you have a good day

Jack

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

In an ideal forum, perhaps, but for a Dhamma talk or discussion the disciples pay full attention to the teacher's discourse. They do not interrupt the teacher while he/she is speaking, and they will wait for a suitable opportunity to ask a question, raising their hands in añjali before speaking. While the disciple is speaking, the other disciples and the teacher listen, until he/she has finished.

On a forum, discussions inevitably get interrupted. Both teachers and disciples come and go as they please while the conversation continues in their absence. Perhaps some are listening to music, or doing other tasks at the same time too.

Now, what would happen during a Dhamma talk (Satsang) if someone drifts by playing his MP3 player, stands at the back listening a bit, and then blurts out a question while the teacher is speaking? Perhaps the disciples or the teacher might be annoyed by this rude interruption, and tell the interloper to switch off his MP3 player, sit down, and listen a bit before asking a question later when its more appropriate.

Yes. An online discussion forum is a unique kind of venue altogether.I think that in many ways, an online approach to the Dhamma can easily mislead and distort, possibly making one assume that one has more familiarity and expertise with the Dhamma than one actually has.

For example, before visiting a temple, or just a meeting with other practitioners in a private setting, one would make sure to bath, dress properly etc. But one can read and post at a forum in pretty much whatever unclean state one is currently in. I think this can have some serious negative consequences for the state of one's mind, for one's practice, due to tolerating disrespectful behavior in oneself (and in others).

Or one can eat and drink while reading and posting at a forum. Something one definitely wouldn't do when talking to a teacher IRL.

Given that one can read and post from pretty much anywhere - whether it is one's bed, one's room, the subway, the library, or wherever, one may develop a conviction that the Dhamma and the sangha are always readily available - thus possibly leading one to fail to realize how scarce and worthy they actually are.

BlackBird wrote:This isn't a monastery or a meditation retreat, I am quite aware of this fact. I am also aware that this is a forum, and in case you haven't noticed - We are exchanging ideas, thoughts and opinions. And whats more, there's disagreement. But it doesn't have to turn septic. It can and should be amicable. Because if it's anything other than that - Then according to the Buddha in the simile of the saw, we're not practicing his teachings.

There's a point from where on being amicable about disagreement becomes blatant heedlessness.