Beliefnet News

Christian Conservatives Decry Health Care Plan, Cheer GOP

WASHINGTON (RNS) More than 1,800 religious conservatives cheered Republican politicians, criticized President Obama’s health care plan, and rallied enthusiasm for the 2010 mid-term elections at the annual Values Voters Summit on Friday (Sept. 18).
“When the president said — (with) seemingly airtight rhetoric the other night — that under our plan no federal dollars will be used to fund abortion, those words were demonstrably false and extraordinarily misleading,” said Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., prompting cheers from many summit attendees. Obama and other Democrats insist that their health care reform plans will not expand federal funding of abortion beyond current limits.
Gil Mertz, of the Family Research Council, asked attendees to sign yellow cards declaring their opposition to any government subsidies for insurance plans that cover abortion or euthanasia, and to send them to Capitol Hill.
House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Va., said it is already time for conservatives to start organizing for the 2010 election.
“Our calling is to dedicate ourselves to the writing of a new future for America, starting with the battles in the halls of Congress and those that will rage in the 435 congressional districts just over a year from right now,” he said, drawing applause. “We shall not be deterred. For if we win, we win for the cause of faith, family and freedom.”
As conservatives decried what they view as an increasing role of government in Americans’ lives under Obama, speakers urged participants to depend on divine rather than political leadership.
“Our trust remains in God,” said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and FRC Action, its legislative action arm that sponsored the summit. “It is not in government.”By Adelle M. Banks
Copyright 2009 Religion News Service. All rights reserved. No part of this transmission may be distributed or reproduced without written permission.

“When the president said — (with) seemingly airtight rhetoric the other night — that under our plan no federal dollars will be used to fund abortion, those words were demonstrably false and extraordinarily misleading,” said Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., prompting cheers from many summit attendees.
This is why the right is so fanatic. They are constantly told that liberals or anyone not as unhinged as they are must be lying about issues that conservatives foam out of the mouth over. If it’s so demonstrably false then why don’t they “read the bill”, as people love to chant, and actually point that out for us.

pagansister

I suppose all those Chrsitian conservatives are going to offer health care to the uninsured AND pay for it…out of the goodness of their little Christian hearts and their very own wallets…just write one of them and all your hospital/doctor bills will disappear though the magic of “belief”. Sure ….wouldn’t count on that.
As to the abortion issue…they need to get over it!

pagansister

Oh and depending on Divine leadership, not political…sure…that is most helpful. God is going to pay the bills and cure the sick. Not happening. I expect those Christian conservatives HAVE health insurance…so they aren’t worrying about paying their medical bills…or maybe god does it for them. Wonder what currency she/he uses?

nnmns

I’m sure the Christian conservative leaders have health care whenever they need it. I’m afraid a lot of their followers are so addled they militantly work against their own interests in various ways.

Pat

Christian conservatives decry everything the GOP tells them to. Mostly because they are mindless automatons but that is to be expected. The church, led by political conservatives, has been programming them that way since birth. Apparently God has given us free will just so the church can take it away. God forbid we think critically for ourselves. Just push a button the church has programmed them with and watch the automated response. I’ll give you an example, I say homosexuals are just like the rest of us, good people for the most part trying to lead good, happy, love-filled lives and they deserve equal rights and protections under the law. Their interpersonal relationships are no business of mine and their relationship with God is between them and God. I pushed a button now watch what the automated replies to that will be. (I bet you all can guess)

Gwyddion9

Quote,
“Our trust remains in God,” said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and FRC Action, its legislative action arm that sponsored the summit. “It is not in government.”
One would never have believed this statement when Bush was in office. He was their “salvation and the defender of the right”. I guess with the way the presidential election came out this year, they’re feeling a lot of pressure, as apparently the American people do not want any part of their ideology in government.
Quote,
“Our trust remains in God,” said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and FRC Action, its legislative action arm that sponsored the summit. “It is not in government.”
Their trust does not lie in their god. If this were true they wouldn’t be fighting so much, seeking to control everything themselves. It sounds good to their members but it’s a lie. They really only trust in what power they can acquire for themselves, at, mind you, everyone else’s expense.
Quote,
“Our calling is to dedicate ourselves to the writing of a new future for America, starting with the battles in the halls of Congress and those that will rage in the 435 congressional districts just over a year from right now,” he said, drawing applause. “We shall not be deterred. For if we win, we win for the cause of faith, family and freedom.”
Writing a new future according to their beliefs at the expense of everyone else and at the expense of everyone else’s beliefs. The simple fact that they use the word ‘battle’ tells their mindset, that they are battling for power and control.
Winning for the cause of faith, family and freedom is, the strictest sense, their beliefs and no one else.
They complain about “socialism” under President Obama but I say it is far more desirable than living in a Fascist country controlled by neo-cons, the Religious Reich and conservative Christians like Mr. Perkins and his ilk.

WindsorsChild

The comments here are just too ludicrous to respond to. Talk about automatic, knee-jerk responses, the words “conservative Christians” brings out those responses in the non-thinking liberal section of our country.

Heretic_for_Christ

Well, WindsorsChild, it would be more instructive if you spelled out, specifically, what factual errors or logical inconsistencies have been posted here, rather than simply denounce “non-thinking liberals.”

cknuck

I know someone got into a lot of trouble for saying this, but I think I will take the chance, “LIAR!!!”

Gwyddion9

WindsorsChild,
Either you are unaware or simply accept what Dobson teaches, meaning that Democracy is contrary to god and his will, as is the U.S. Constitution. Dobson wants to have a theocracy established based on how “he” sees Christianity.
As far as I’m concerned, Dobson, Focus on the Family and groups like this and the Neo-Conservatives all fit in this same box and CANNOT, under any circumstances, be trusted. They, as far as I’m concerned are anti-Democracy and against the U.S. as it currently exists.

cknuck

Dobson is like anyone else who teaches some of what they teach is right and some is wrong take the best and leave the rest. I like Dobson’s family values while I am not in agreement with his political policies

GodsCountry

“”…rather than simply denounce “non-thinking liberals…””
…but the target is just so B I G !
Besides, pointing out what has already been written would require rewriting all those posts. That would be pointless.
Just go back and read all the factual errors and inconsistencies first hand.
Liberal “thought” exists only to hound after established truth. Otherwise it would be conservative thought. Trouble is, when a liberal catches it, they don’t know what to do with it.
Can’t chew it up. Can’t deny it away. Can’t kill it.
Truth is immutable, eternal and nothing a “liberal thinker” can say can possibly change that.
Christian conservatives decry the un-truth BHO espouses, not the man himself, not anything about race or class or whatever. BHO is simply a big fat liar (it pains me, but I borrowed this phrase from a true “liberal thinker”, now senator), and deserves to be exposed.

nnmns

Well GC since you brought it up in your pointless screed, I don’t blame racial bigotry for what the Republican party and conservative leaders are doing; they’d be doing it no matter what Democrat was in. Perhaps you noticed how they pilloried President Clinton.
But part of the response is undoubtedly racial bigotry, by little people who felt at least they were better than ni***rs, then one becomes President! The only thing they can see to do is try to help make him look bad. Call him a big fat liar and such. So, here you are.

Heretic_for_Christ

Racism doesn’t explain the hysterical hatred of people like GodsCountry. I have no reason to think that GC is a racist. Demonstrably, he (she?) is proudly ignorant and given to fascistic scapegoating on social-political matters; and smug, arrogant, delusional, and divorced from the spiritual teachings of Jesus on religious matters–but probably not a racist.
GC, you cannot escape the truth. No matter how desperately you keep railing against it, the truth prevails.
The insolence of bibliolatry and pseudo-faith.
(Hey, GC–these concluding little epigrams are fun!)

Your Name

If all churches paid taxes then this Country might be able to pay for all the services that its people need. The American poor are treated with less respect than the criminals in this Country. Criminals in prison get complete medical and dental care along with other benefits.
As one of the retired poor I live on $700.00 a month from Social Security, I get Medicare and Medicaid and I have to pay for my prescription plan and co-pay. I don’t live in a city so there is no bus or taxi service. So all my income goes to rent and bills, since the social programs like Foodstamps don’t take into account the money it takes to pay for upkeep and insurance on a car that is paramount when living in the country.
The United States is supposed to be a wealthy Country, but we are so far behind other Countries that treat their poor with free healthcare and programs meant to help. Isn’t it time that our Country learned how to share the wealth?

pagansister

GC, Like as asked above…..is you god going to take care of everyone, and pay for it out of her/his pocket? If he/she is so almighty, there wouldn’t be a need for health care…no one would be ill or need it, huh?
I find it hard to believe that “loving Christians” refuse to help the 45 million or so folks in this country…men, women and children, who need help paying for their medical bills. And incase you don’t realize it…you’re already paying for those who aren’t covered with medical insurance…so why not help those who need it, get it….then you and they will be better off?
I know, too much to ask. The bible doesn’t cover health care!

Chicago11

I get it now.
If this (5% chance)… and if this (0.05% chance)….and if this ().005% chance)… and if this (0.0005% chance)and if the moon is ascendant and the planets line up like….blah, blah, THEN healthcare reform will mandate abortions and require death panels to put some folks out of their misery.
Meanwhile, 45 million humans of which maybe 33 million are citizens are uninsured…and 45,000 premature deaths annually because of lack of comprehensive healthcare… None of this matters?
Is this what it means to be smug? Absolutely no compromise or good faith to work out a bill that is truly Christian in caring?

Your Name

“”…you cannot escape the truth. No matter how desperately you keep railing against it, the truth prevails…””
A point for me when you adopt my style, tone and content (see above).
This is a clash of worldviews, which are absolutely mutually exclusive. If one is true, the other must be false. if one leads to hope, the other to despair. One leads to eternal life, the other to damnation. I tell the truth, plainly. You obfuscate, using what I call “pathological rhetoric”, the negative gambits, the obfuscating side of rhetoric. In short, you have no more than words to engage, in vain, in a debate against God and God’s truth.
God is. All truth is God’s truth, there is no other.
This is why the empty promises of politicians are empty, especially in the case of BHO and his health care travesty. Can’t keep a promise based on a lie.

GodsCountry

…I claim the above comment…GodsCountry

nnmns

“I claim the above comment”
Clearly you have no shame.

Your Name

To Pagen Sister and all of those others out there who support this proposed health system. First let me say that I have no health insurance. They say I make too much money to qualify for medicaid (1,000) a month in SS. I am not old enough for Medidcare. So I am on my own. I do not want this to pass because it takes away the medical care of senior citizens so you can be covered. Is this fair? We have paid into the system all our lives. People think SS and Medicare are freebees for seniors. They ar en’t. The reason SS and Medicare is bankrupt is because Congress has stolen the money over the years to pay our National Debt. In other words, they are stealling from us. And they will be stealing from us again. Would you want an elderly relative to be denied medical care because they are considered “not essential to society”? I am 64 years old. Congress wants to cut our healthcare so you can enjoy free health care. Under this bill, they also want to take away electric wheelchairsl and scooters from the elderly. These things are essential to some people in order to get around. If you have arthritis it is hard to push yourself around in a wheelchair. Well, if this plan passes, I hope that you enjoy your free health care at the expense of my own and maybe even my life.

Henrietta22

No Name please run don’t walk and get some information from AARP about the medical needs and what we will have and stop listening to the political talk of the Republicans, and the far right extremists. You will be helped if you listen to sensible explanations by AARP if you find it so easy to mistrust our President Obama. Follow AARP and what they are saying and forget about the fairy tales of doom and distruction the Republicans are putting out. Quit worrying or you may have a heart attack or stroke, o.k.?

pagansister

YN, do as Henrietta says, and get some reliable information. The GOP is lying to you. I am a few months older than you and will start with Medicare in December. Get reliable information….please.
GC, You really do belive what you write…very scary. BTW, what’s god got to do with it? He isn’t paying for my SS or my coming medicare. I have paid my dues…and I’m getting that back. Others need the opportunity to have health care before they reach my age…some won’t reach my age without it…but I expect you really aren’t worried about that. God will take care of it!!

Heretic_for_Christ

GC,
You may think you get “points” when I ridicule your style, but you don’t. This isn’t a game. You are an immensely dangerous individual because you spread lies while posing as God’s chosen spokesperson, and call those lies truth. If I believed in Satan, I’d say you were his minion.
You may think you are God’s chosen spokesperson, but that is self-evidently absurd, because his chosen spokesperson would be able to articulate something more than incoherent ravings. Jesus, for example, spoke some powerful spiritual truths, while all you do is claim to speak the truth while saying precisely nothing.
You may think you are in good company because the Lord, too, was mocked, but that is wrong. You are nothing like Jesus. You are being mocked because you are an insufferably smug and pompous ass who richly deserves to be mocked.

pagansister

H4C: :o) Well done.

cknuck

H4C as a counselor I know that the things in others that upset us the most usually are things we do also. I know why GC bothers you so much. pagan where can one get truthful facts from Obama? If someone had yelled liar to Bush we might not be in the trouble we are in and so when someone calls Obama on his lies it is a good thing.

Heretic_for_Christ

cknuck,
I wouldn’t make a generalization about being upset by things we see in others that we do ourselves. Does abortion upset you? Yet you don’t promote or perform abortions. Does political demagogy upset you? Yet you are not a demagogue. Do my heretical view offend you? Yet you are not a heretic.
My anger at GC is actually not about his denunciations of President Obama. I voted for Obama and am not sorry I did (as the alternative, with Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency, was unthinkable to me), but I have been sorely disappointed in his performance to date. Rather, my anger at GC is that he (she? I really don’t know) is insufferably smug, including an explicit claim to being God’s chosen spokesperson–in response to my sarcastic question, “When exactly did God appoint you to be his spokesperson?” GC thanked me for asking and replied “Forty years ago.”

cknuck

H4C you have never stopped speaking for God, and you are certainly both insufferable and smug GC is just bold enough to admit it, that is the only difference I can see.

nnmns

cknuck let me add to your comments about berating what we see in ourselves and H4C’s comments: Think about your continual derision of homosexuality.

cknuck

let you nnmns, that’s a laugh; you already know my position so do want to try to change my mind or do you want to try to shame me, is there someone new you want to familiarize with my position on the topic, please do tell me to what end? Not that deep nnmns

Heretic_for_Christ

No, cknuck, I do NOT speak for God. If you thought seriously–without prejudice–about what I believe, you would see that this charge is self-contradictory. I experience God within me. I suspect that God is within all of us, because it is absurd to think God would be within me alone. The presence of God within is a source of strength and guidance, urging me toward living in a manner befitting God’s presence and reflective of certain spiritual characteristics that become the fruits by which I would wish to be known.
You do know that, because you have repeatedly sneered at that belief.
So if I do not experience God as an external superbeing with a personality who likes this and hates that, how could I “speak for” God? I write what I experience. If your experience of God is different, by all means, express that. If your experience of God is limited to “The Bible says…” then I am unimpressed
I believe you when you say that YOU find me insufferable and smug–I’m sure that you, personally, do consider me such, and I imagine that most Bible-based Christians would agree, for my beliefs are outright heresy and I am not at all ashamed of my heresy. Heresy is just rejection of man-made religious doctrine; that doesn’t bother me in the least.
But I’ll ask you again–what about Christian smugness and judgment? Is it me or is it Bible-based Christians (NOT referring specifically to you, cknuck) who ceaselessly declare that God likes this and hates that? Who is it who declares that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, atheists, and all others who are not trinitarian Christians are unredeemed sinners, cut off from God? And now, specifically referring to you, which one of us has gone beyond disagreeing with the other’s beliefs and denounced the other personally?

Henrietta22

I’m not disappointed in President Obama. If he isn’t moving fast enough for some people it’s because the office of the President of the U.S. was left with so many problems to fix. Actually he’s doing remarkably well. First things first. Obama doesn’t lie, the accusers have this trait though. He doesn’t divide he trys to reconcile. Dividers reject peace, always.

GodsCountry

“”…Heresy is just rejection of man-made religious doctrine…””
Wrong. Find your Funk & Wagnalls.
While your at it, look up “projection”. You “project” onto me.
If there is a “god” inside you, and this “god” might be also in someone else, but manifests itself differently, this is the religion of chaos, despair and in no way even resembles Christianity.
Except it would appear these “gods” are false and will lead only to damnation.
Your “Dear Leader” has created havoc, travesty upon travesty. Liberals will not recognize this because they see the Constitution as some amenable, living thing that means different things to different people – somewhat like those “gods” we discussed. Much more the uninformed and ignorant will not see the real problem, either.
But, their reason for this is excusable and can be corrected through education.
The propensity of pagans, heretics and atheists to pervert any truth they disagree with is astounding.

nnmns

Definitions of heresy on the Web:
unorthodoxy: any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position
a belief that rejects the orthodox tenets of a religion
That sounds exactly like what H4C said. Consult your F&W before claiming it supports you.
GC: “Except it would appear these “gods” are false and will lead only to damnation.”
They are all false GC so happily there is no damnation. Rejoice.

cknuck

H4C how in the world can you say God is inside of you and not speak for Him, remember He’s inside of you. Maybe it’s me but I don’t get it. I am Christ’s ambassador here on earth His Holy Spirit is inside of me so yeah when I am in good relationship with Him (that’s not always so even though I am a Christian) then I speak for Him just as prophets always have and will. Of course their are some obnoxious Christians in the world like all other people so we are not perfect that is why we believe in the bible because to us it is perfect.

pagansister

If the Bible is perfect, cknuck…as you said above, then why when it is quoted, and backs up a statement, you claim it doesn’t really back up the statement, because there is more to the passage etc. Thinking of the prayer in the closet in Matthew, referring to public prayer? The Bible is perfect when it backs up what you want it to.

Heretic_for_Christ

cknuck,
Sorry if I was not clear. Let me try again. You see God as a kind of judge as well as savior–a “person” who sets down laws that define good vs bad, provided the Bible to us as a means of knowing about him, and decides our fate based on our worship of him, our obedience to his laws, or both. You might use different words, but that is how most people see their relationship to God–as subjects of an all-powerful monarch. So when you look to the Bible for guidance, you see it as obeying the word of this monarch.
For me, it is entirely different, and NOT merely that I sense God within rather than outside myself. God as I experience God is NOT a monarch setting down laws about things that he approves or disapproves, and judging me on my obedience. God is not a “person” to me, not a “he” or “she” or “it.” God is a wellspring of spiritual strength, in several forms, as I have previously listed (rationality, courage, compassion, creativity, love). The promptings I sense from God’s presence are not about laws and rules; they are about my moment-to-moment willingness to allow those characteristics to be expressed in my life. Sometimes, I am not willing; for example,, on these boards, I struggle but usually fail to show compassion for a disturbed individual like GC, and instead allow anger to erupt, even though I know it is wrong and pointless and even cruel in the same sense as making fun of disabled person would be cruel.
So the only way I could “speak” for God would come out as something like this: “Yesterday, God within me urged me to skip that dessert, which I don’t need… Today, God reminded me that I have the creative resources I needed to solve a tough problem…”
God, to me, is not a monarch, not a superbeing with likes and dislikes, not an issuer of laws or of judgment. God is an all-pervasive spirit of goodness and intelligence and creativity in the universe. I, as a living being in the universe, experience an infinitesimal sliver of that pervasive spiritual force.
You can dismiss my beliefs as “home-grown” “do-it-yourself” “make-believe” religion–I have heard all the put-down phrases. But if I described my sense of God in some other way, I’d be a liar and a hypocrite.

cknuck

Oh boy H4C are we full of ourselves today. HA! The god in you that reminds you not to do that dessert is a pretty small god, he can fit inside of you. You are so grandiose you think you can define my relationship with God even when I cannot encompass it myself. God is not limited to the bible and He gives me free will so you might as well put your little monarch theory back in your immense head. Try this you are wrong in your synopsis of my faith my God is too big for you to wrap your head around him and use him for a magic eight ball like your god.

cknuck

H4C a couple of thousand years ago Jesus ran into a rich young knucklehead quite like yourself. And the dude said much of the same things you have said. I know the word, I do good deeds …. Jesus said something to the guy that made him walk away sad. But at least he had the good sense to see himself and walk away sad. Why did Jesus say what He said to this guy?

Heretic_for_Christ

Well, cknuck, it’s reassuring to know that I can always count on you to ridicule my beliefs. I also note that you apparently did not bother reading or failed to understand what I clearly stated–that my experience of God is an “infinitesimal sliver” of the totality of God as pervasive spirit in the universe. But you go on and accuse me of imagining the totality of God as being within me. What is the point of trying to have a dialogue if you so are so hair-trigger ready to heap scorn on me that you don’t even bother thinking about what I post?
As for your question about the rich young man who questioned Jesus: I assume you are referring to Matthew 19:16-22. The young man did not say anything close to what I have said. He asked Jesus about how to be saved; I do not accept the doctrine of salvation and damnation at all, remember? I am a heretic, not a Christian, for this very reason; soteriological doctrine seems blasphemous to me. (And I am far from rich.)

cknuck

H4C learning your beliefs as we go is indeed laborious I must remember you don’t believe in Christ so it is not by Him you gain access to you god and the bible is just another group of poems and sayings of which you, well I’m not at all sure of your approach to the bible. Of course you are beyond all doctrine there is no group worship of God or prayer assembly of the saints means nothing to you. I normally would not waste so much time on a religion which I don’t practice but you seem to have so many derogatory remarks to say about my faith that I got drawn in and for that I ask God to forgive me. Not that I will bee able to resist if I see you attack the bible or Christianity again but for now I ask for God’s forgiveness for my weakness.

Heretic_for_Christ

cknuck,
I never attack the Bible. I attack what I consider gross misinterpretation of what it means. And you know what? I have as much right to do so as you have to disagree with me.

nnmns

So cknuck you doubt your all-powerful god could squeeze itself down to fit into one person’s head if it chose to. Is that not blasphemy?
Just asking.

cknuck

typical nnmns although you have the ability to make sense your limited focus does not allow you

nnmns

I take it that means “Yes it’s blasphemy but I won’t admit it and I doubt God will notice.”

cknuck

nnmns quote “I take it that means “Yes it’s blasphemy but I won’t admit it and I doubt God will notice.”
I take it that means you are still a idiot.

GodsCountry

No need to worry, fellow pilgrim. God has shown us a better way.
The best the WORLD has to offer is right here in these pages. Just ask these guys and read what they write.
Empty, hopeless ranting.
This is what should motivate Christians to more boldly witness, putting away their fears.
There is no need to fear. It’s all sound and fury.
There is no way but God’s perfect way.
Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.
Simple.

GodsCountry

…politics. Now that’s another story.
BHO has set us up for his agenda that will leave the Constitution a meaningless relic and America in economic ruin. BHO is busy fulfilling the hallucinogen-addled visions of mid-twentieth-century, bomb-throwing, radicals.
There is no other explanation for the travesty he is visiting upon our country. Christians, conservatives and any who can see, are correct to “decry” any policy originating from “Dear Leader”.
This, my friends, is POLITICS.
And, in this case, true.

Heretic_for_Christ

cknuck,
I sincerely suggest you think about the phrase you yourself used–that you are an “ambassador for Christ.” Are you acting as an ambassador? Yeah, I know–you are also a warrior who must defend the faith. Defend it against what? What do I care what other people believe? I care how other people act, and if they act in a manner that would have me welcome them as friends and neighbors, it is not my concern if they worship God, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zontar the thing from Venus, or nothing at all. Yet you think I am constantly attacking Christianity and the Bible.
Christians tell me that I am cut off from God because I am not a Christian. So I explain why I am not a Christian–because the doctrines of sin and salvation and damnation are blasphemous, in my view. Does an explanation of why I reject Christianity (after going to churches for years) constitute an attack on Christianity? If so, does that mean that everyone who refuses to convert is an enemy? Is that the attitude of an ambassador?
Christians tell me that the world would be better if everyone followed Christian values. I point out that there are no such things as Christian values–that the values held by Christians are in part Jewish values and in part the civilized values held by all cultures, that there is nothing uniquely Christian in those values, therefore no basis for claiming credit for them by attaching the name Christian to them. Does pointing out this rather self-evident fact constitute an attack on Christianity?
Christians tell me that the truth of the gospel is demonstrated by the fact that it has endured triumphantly for 2000 years. I reply by recalling some of the history of these past 2 millennia, as Christianity was enforced at gunpoint, on pain of torture and death for non-Christians, and that the church has relied heavily on indoctrinating children–so the continued existence of Christian doctrine is hardly evidence of its truth. Does recalling history constitute an attack on Christianity?
Christians unceasingly quote the Bible at me; I know my way around the Bible reasonably well, even if I can’t instantly quote chapter and verse as well as some, and I have a different attitude toward it and different interpretations of various verses. Does not regarding the Bible as the inerrant word of God constitute an attack on Christianity? Does it even constitute an attack on the Bible?
SOME Christians want to have creationism taught as if it were science, as if it were an alternate “theory” to explain the proliferation and diversity of life on Earth. I point out that this is absurd, for creationism is not even a hypothesis much less a theory. Does accepting scientific evidence constitute an attack on Christianity?
cknuck, it really does seem to me that you see enemies attacking all around, and that does not sound like the mind-set of an ambassador. But hey, why should you care what I think?

Heretic_for_Christ

GC,
How nice that you quoted a very basic Jewish teaching, which Jesus, as a Jew, reiterated.
Had you stopped right there, it would have been the first posting of yours that had any respectability. But no! You had to go on and improve on Jesus’ words by topping it off with a generous scoop of your usual vomit.

cknuck

H4C I don’t see you as an enemy and I can be an ambassador and speak really frankly at the same time. Sorry you sensibilities are offended and that you think Christians should just be sickly sweet. My enemies are not of flesh and blood and as much as I love humanity I don’t have to like all the knuckleheads of the world and I don’t. I don’t try to talk badly about other faiths and I have very little use for those who like to put Christianity down. I don’t hang out with Christians that hammer folk with scripture but mostly the pagans and atheist, and whatever you are seem to what to club Christians with scriptures and even more scripture out of context.

Heretic_for_Christ

cknuck,
I don’t want Christians or anyone else to be “sickly sweet.” I like it when people are honest and outspoken about what they believe. But honesty also entails acknowledgment of error. I listed a bunch of things that I have said about Christians at different times, none of which are complimentary–but please note that only one was about the faith itself (my reason for not being a Christian) while all the others are about bad things that adherents to the faith have said and done in the past and present, and those things should just be acknowledged without defensiveness.
And lest I be accused of anti-Christian prejudice:
1. I reject all religious doctrine, not just Christian doctrine.
2. Adherents to all faiths have been guilty of hideous acts, some on larger scales than others.
3. As critical as I am of the misdeeds of some Christians, I am equally awed by acts of courage and compassion of other Christians; and similarly, for other faiths.
4. I am swept away by the magnificence and beauty of some of the Christian liturgical music written by the great composers.
And finally, I am genuinely glad that you don’t see me as an enemy, cknuck, because I have never seen you that way. Our beliefs differ wildly, but my impression has always been that you are a very decent human being–the sort of person I’d welcome as a friend and neighbor, as long as the differences in our beliefs could be approached as, “Huh! You believe this and I believe that. Far out. Let’s have a beer.”

nnmns

cknuck I don’t try to “club” you with scripture, I just point out what it says. The fact it feels like a clubbing to you must be because it says what you don’t want your Bible to say, at least in that particular circumstance.
Now think about a god that wrote an instruction manual for the world that could be used as a club against those who believe in it. Wouldn’t that be a sign of gross incompetence? Think about it.

cknuck

nnmns make sense will ya.

GodsCountry

Far Out? Anyone had a beer lately with someone who actually says this?
Sorry, that was mean. Let’s move on to more serious observations.
It looks suspicious when a comment describing other people, their beliefs, contains such a vast usage of the personal pronouns.
With your “god” inside you, that’s understandable. Self-referential theology just may describe all of your comments. Who really speaks to this, you or your “god”?
If the answer is “we are the same”, then you are this “god”.
If the answer is “we are separate”, then you are possessed, ala that infamous film.
No matter what you answer, you are going to become needful of a savior, someday, and you should know that His name is Jesus and He will cleanse you, accept you and love you.
All you need to do is ask.

nnmns

All our gods are inside us, GC. It’s just that H4C realizes it. Your god is a figment of your fevered imagination as stoked by some priests and probably your mother. Nobody else has a god just like yours though it might take some careful inspections to reveal that, inspections probably no one does.

Heretic_for_Christ

GC,
I HAVE asked. I have asked repeatedly for you to go away, get some help, become a human being. Yet here you are, still acting like a robot programmed to talk drivel. Well, I’m patient. Let’s look at your “analysis” of me.
To you, the only possibilities are that I think of myself as God or that I am possessed by the Devil. Someday, if you learn to listen, I’ll explain why the Devil is a self-contradictory notion, but let that pass for now. Meanwhile, ask yourself about the Holy Spirit. You know that individual, don’t you? Third entity in the trinity? Are you the Holy Spirit? No? Okay. Are you “possessed” by the Holy Spirit? Don’t even think about proudly proclaiming the answer Yes! because then I will ask if you are a perfect person, free from all potential for error and sin. You see how it works, GC? If you were truly possessed by the perfection of God, then you would be perfect. And you are one of the least perfect people I have encountered in years on Beliefnet. Unless you are prepared to declare yourself perfect, you are not “possessed” by the Holy Spirit. So wait a second! If you aren’t the Holy Spirit and you aren’t possessed by the Holy Spirit, does that mean that the Holy Spirit is NOT within you? According to you, those are the only choices.
Oh. Well, yeah, maybe there is a third possibility. What you call the Holy Spirit and what I call God dwell within us not as puppet-master but as guide. Here endeth the lesson. Go in peace.

cknuck

H4C you have very little understanding of the Holy Spirit and how He interacts with people. The Holy Spirit does not make us perfect but partitions for us and whispers to our decision making process.
H4C when you speak of giving people lessons about God you contradict your previous claims about your not proselytizing. The fact that nnmns a card carrying God hating Christian persecutor agrees with you should send up some alarms concerning your faith. But even so, even if GC offends your sensibilities so much GC still has every right to GC’s opinions and statements. I often wonder how in the world could people like you and nnmns think that you can continue to insult and make statements about people’s faith without causing a reaction, it’s mystery to me. I applaud GC for hanging in there.

Heretic_for_Christ

Uh, cknuck, I KNOW that Christians aren’t perfect and don’t claim to be. My question to GC about being perfect was sarcastic, because he/she accused me of either megalomania or demonic possession, and I was pointing out that if those are the only bases for having a spiritual presence, then either GC was the Holy Spirit or was possessed by the Holy Spirit or did not have the Holy Spirit. The sarcastic question about being perfect was to show that no Christian is “possessed” by the Holy Spirit, and that is self-evident BECAUSE no one is perfect. So GC’s premise was wrong–a spiritual presence can represent GUIDANCE rather than possession.
Now you come along and chastise me for not knowing anything–and you repeat exactly what I said about guidance. And even better–you say that the Holy Spirit whispers to your decision-making process, yet you roared with laughter when I described exactly that experience within myself, didn’t you?
cknuck, I am genuinely sorry that you are so consumed with hostility and antagonism that you reject and condemn everything I say–even as you go on to say exactly the same thing yourself.

Heretic_for_Christ

PS to previous:
You find it mysterious that people can insult your faith and not expect a reaction? What do you think proselytizing is, cknuck, if not an insult to non-Christians’ faith? The proselytizing message is, “Your faith is worthless. Come and be a Christian because that is the only truth.” Maybe you personally don’t say those words, but your pal GC does. And yes, he does have the right to say those words–but how do you manage to criticize me for insulting your faith while praising GC for insulting the faith of everyone whose beliefs differ from his? If the answer is that his and your faith is the Right Faith, then you have simply joined him in insulting other people’s faith.

GodsCountry

“”…I was pointing out that if those are the only bases for having a spiritual presence…””
Nope. There are two I left out – delusions or the real deal.
The more you write, the more I’m convinced it is one of these. Heresy has enough truth along as baggage that it can deceive. Delusions are much more obvious, accompanied by some symptoms that send shivers up the spine of the casual observer.
I do not need to tell anyone, because the truth is obvious. Delusion is not faith.
Faith can be centered on anything and anybody, but it is fruitless, hopeless faith unless it is faith in the One True God and His Son Jesus Christ.

Heretic_for_Christ

GC,
Now that you’ve explained my “problem,” I’ll explain yours: You impose limits on God, demanding that God’s presence must look and sound just the way you have convinced yourself it is supposed to be, and if it is different, it is not real.

pagansister

There are those that have the delusion that they know all there is to know, H4C. It’s like talking to a brick wall in some cases. :o)

GodsCountry

“”…the delusion that they know all there is to know…””
Quite right, some do know all that is ESSENTIAL to know and nothing more. And that is ALL there is to know…
Pointing out the correct way to live means sometimes having to point out wrong ways.
Denying God is wrong and has blinded you.
Accept God and you can be made whole.

pagansister

“Quite right, some do know all that is ESSENTIAL to know and nothing more. And that is ALL there is to know..” GC
Large EGO involved in that statement, huh?

pagansister

BTW, GC, you know the CORRECT way to live and it’s your job to point that out? You are arrogant.

GodsCountry

“”…you know the CORRECT way to live and it’s your job to point that out?…””
Yes.
Here is a cute saying some of my fellow believers thought up;
No God, no life.
Know God, Know life.
…go ahead, tear it up.
But there is hope in those words that cannot be replaced by anything you say.

pagansister

Like I said, arrogant, GC. Isn’t there something about being “proud” as a sin?

pagansister

Yes, GC, from your favorite book….Proverbs 16:18:
Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Are YOU guilty of that? IMO…yep!

GodsCountry

Assurance is not easily confused with pride unless one who is prideful happens to project that old sin upon the innocent but assured.
I am certain that what I write here is true.
Most other comments are, essentially, personal opinion and these are usually arbitrary, limited to the individual’s experiences or borne of cliche’ and anecdote.
Truth is good.
The audacity of duplicity.

pagansister

“I am certain that what I write here is true.” GC
Again your basing it on a 2000 year old book written by and changed,copied and translated by human being over centuries. How accurate can that be, GC? It floats your boat. It doesn’t happen to float mine.
IMO, Proverbs 16:18 still applies to your postings. You’re not only certain, you are arrogant with it. You are right…no way you’re wrong…that’s a little more than “certain”.

GodsCountry

How much the light of truth hurts your eyes is proportional to how tightly closed they have been or how long you’ve been in the dark.

pagansister

GC, you must have a little book that has all those cute little saying in them. It must have an index so you can look up sayings for any situtation. Of course it is approved by the “power” . No way you’re making them all up!
They’re useless on an extremely happy person, but there are some who feel unless they have the “power” running things, she can’t possibly be happy. You are sooo wrong is it pathetic.

GodsCountry

…you are the Devil’s advocate.
You know better than that and are a fool for leaving God behind.

GodsCountry

“…It must have an index so you can look up sayings for any situtation (sic)…”
…I looked under “false witness”, “blind guide”, “reprobate”.
You are in real danger and I can’t allow you to mislead others to the same fate.

Heretic_for_Christ

GC, if you ever had the courage to lift your nose out of your Bible, you might see that people like pagansister are far closer to God than self-righteous, self-important prigs like you will ever hope to be.

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