Trying for a More Competitive List--Comments welcome, desired

Hey all!

Back in the pleasant brightness of the near past, I was working on a fluffy list for the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion. I'm thinking I'll wait on that until the Legion 'dexes come out, assuming that happens.

In the meantime, I've been trying to think of a more competitive army list, albeit without going the "usual" path of lash princes, etc.

So, here goes:

HQ
Chaos Lord with Terminator package, MoT, a combi-weapon and a daemon weapon.

Elites
5x Chaos Terminators with the IoT, 3x combis, and a Reaper; all are Champions.

Troops
7x Plague Marines with a Personal Icon, two plasma guns, and a Plague Champion with a power fist.

Plus two identical squads of: 10x Chaos Marines with the IoS, two flamers, and an Aspiring Champion with a power weapon and melta bombs.

Each squad also has a possessed rhino with a 'dozer blade and a havoc launcher.

Heavy SupportChaos Vindicator with the same upgrades as the Rhinos.

My total comes to 1,496 out of the 1,500 I was shooting for.

The plan is to use the PMs to hold/contest a point while one CSM squad rushes the enemies and the other either rushes or holds (depending on the enemy force). The Vindicator is there to draw enemy fire (though if it gets a main cannon shot off, cool beans) away from my Troops. The Lord and Termie Champs will teleport in onto a squad (ideally the main rushing blob of CSMs) and begin hosing the enemy with their assorted dakka (I'm figuring that the lord and one other will have combi-meltas and the other two will be flamers--I want them to be good regardless of where they drop). I think they'll live to be useful with their 2/4 saves. As I see it, the CSMs with their flamers and I5 will wreck infantry and tarpits (assisted by constant missile spam from the vehicles--I'm picturing an episode of Robotech here), and the PMs and plasmas will grind down Termies and other heavies (if they venture that close). I do have a weakness against vehicles, but I'm hoping that the various melta gear and the PC's fist will help that.

Since I can never give up on fluff completely this would be painted as Black Legion, or similar.

A hate demon weapons, they have a tendency to roll ones when you really don't want it to happen. I would personally change the lord for a sorcerer if you want to stay away from demon prince, if you want to stay with tzeench give him bolt of change to help you against tanks. But if you just want to stay away from lash, a demon prince with wings and warptime is pretty good and cheap or a prince with wings, MoT and bolt of change is also good.

For the terminators, chaos has no way to manipulate their reserves so keeping a unit this costly in reserve is not really a good thing at your points level. Either get more bodies by loosing champion status on all your models and walk them on the board or cut the points so if they don't show up fast you haven't lost to many points on unused upgrades. The champion status that you give to terminators is usefull when you pay a chainfist to get an extra attack but usually you are better off with more bodies. IoT is costly also so by getting more models you spread the points or else jsut drop it on a unit of 5 it's not worh it, extra bodies would be better again. I would go for 2 units of 4 terminators with 3 combi-meltas, a heavy flamer and a powerfist = 150 points each so that by having 2 you're more reliable for the reserves and you can impact the game twice before dying.

For the troops, where are the meltaguns? 10 CSM on the charge can wipe out more then 2 flamer templates will so giving them meltaguns would give them 2 rolls on the battlefield, anti-tank and anti-infantry. 10 CSM with 2 flamers will not have anything to shoot because you don't have any anti-tank weapons in the army. Also even with ini5 you don't give an aspiring champion a power weapon, you give him a powerfist because the first dread you encounter will kill the whole squad over the course of a game without you ever doing anything against him. Don't think a meltabomb that hits on 6s will help you. Str 8 will scare a few IC away from the unit also.

3 scoring units is not very much, I would add at least one more. Also for the plague marines, if you want to stay far and shoot plasma a champ and 7 members is a waste of points, 5 and 2 plasma in a rhino is a nice bunker for cheap. Or give them meltaguns instead of plasmaguns and keep the champ with fist and throw them at the enemy. Add a unit of lesser demons to compensate for the unit of plagues that are moving foward.

Rhinos are cheap, you double-up their points cost just by adding unneccesary upgrades. You're army is already packed with anti-infantry and you add havoc launchers, giving them combi-meltas would help against tanks. Possesion is a waste of points on a rhino, buy an other rhino instead by adding chosen or havocs or more troops.

You need to add more ranged anti-tank firepower to the army or at least more meltaguns everywhere. I would use a squad of havocs with 4 missile launchers with a rhino instead of a vindicator. Or a predator or obliterators. Everything but a vindicator. Vindicators suffer from the 1 gun syndrom, once the gun blows up your tank is useless, if it gets immobilized its useless because of the short range on the gun, last but not least you have 2 units with flamers (hopefully meltas) that have to be really close to use their weapons and your only way to open a tank for them is a vidicator shell that can scatter on your boys.

Here is base list to work from that is not the usual setup that could be good.

You can always/should change one unit of terminators for more shooting in the heavy support slot, I only put 2 units of terminators because that was how many points you had allocated to terminators in the first place. The demon prince can walk on the board or deepstrike as your current lord, the terminators pack more punch then your unit. The troops can open tanks themselves and assault the contents, they don't have to wait for your only anti-tank gun to open the tank for them. You have one more scoring unit in the lesser demons (deepstrike them, move in cover and go to ground all game when they get shot so they can control an objective at the end of the game, in case of dire need they can also assault the turn they deepstrike). The missile launchers give you more shooting then a unit of obliterators and in case of need in Dawn of War missions they have a transport to move and get in position. The spare rhino from the plague marines and the havocs give cover to the 2 other rhinos full of troops moving in position and can both be used as a ride if the CSM get shot out of their transports. The obliterator is a jack of all trades in this army, deepstrike him to use his multi-melta at short range or keep him far to shoot tanks.

Rhinos need no more upgrades than dozer blades and MAYBE combi-melta or plasma. The Chaos Lord is not a competitive HQ choice. Take a nurgle DP with warptime. Also the Termies are not an all-comers choice. Take PMs with 2 Plasmaguns or 2 Flamers, CSM with 2 Meltaguns, IoCG, Champ with PF and/or 8-Zerker-squads with PF. Also, always carry your Troops in Rhinos with DBs.
Lastly, take lots of Heavy Support. Obliterators and/or Defilers are solid choices against any army. Vindicators and Autocannon/Lascannon Predators are fine.

A hate demon weapons, they have a tendency to roll ones when you really don't want it to happen. I would personally change the lord for a sorcerer if you want to stay away from demon prince, if you want to stay with tzeench give him bolt of change to help you against tanks. But if you just want to stay away from lash, a demon prince with wings and warptime is pretty good and cheap or a prince with wings, MoT and bolt of change is also good.

I was liking the Deathscreamer for its 2-6 shots at 4/3. I figure the CSMs are my choppy segment; I wanted my Lord and Termies to be more shooty. I'm less than fond of the Sorcerer's lack of Fearless, and the fat that there's so many anti-psyker options out there. I will reconsider the DP, though.

Originally Posted by Black_rose_00

For the terminators, chaos has no way to manipulate their reserves so keeping a unit this costly in reserve is not really a good thing at your points level. Either get more bodies by loosing champion status on all your models and walk them on the board or cut the points so if they don't show up fast you haven't lost to many points on unused upgrades. The champion status that you give to terminators is usefull when you pay a chainfist to get an extra attack but usually you are better off with more bodies. IoT is costly also so by getting more models you spread the points or else jsut drop it on a unit of 5 it's not worh it, extra bodies would be better again. I would go for 2 units of 4 terminators with 3 combi-meltas, a heavy flamer and a powerfist = 150 points each so that by having 2 you're more reliable for the reserves and you can impact the game twice before dying.

Dropping Champion is definitely a good point now that you mention it, especially since I'm making them a fire-point more than a melee squad. I hate the thought of walking them; all the anti-armour and plasma get to have free shots on them as they hike across the board. I'm liking the IoT for the 50% boost to their Invul save; again, I want them to live to do their harm.

Originally Posted by Black_rose_00

For the troops, where are the meltaguns? 10 CSM on the charge can wipe out more then 2 flamer templates will so giving them meltaguns would give them 2 rolls on the battlefield, anti-tank and anti-infantry. 10 CSM with 2 flamers will not have anything to shoot because you don't have any anti-tank weapons in the army. Also even with ini5 you don't give an aspiring champion a power weapon, you give him a powerfist because the first dread you encounter will kill the whole squad over the course of a game without you ever doing anything against him. Don't think a meltabomb that hits on 6s will help you. Str 8 will scare a few IC away from the unit also.

I do like the thought of making the troops more versatile. Giving the AC a Fist seems like such a waste; I really hate tot lose that I5 PW, especially when I'm going up against MEQ CQC units. You really don't think that two meltaguns (assuming I drop the flamers) and a meltabomb will stop a Dread?

Originally Posted by Black_rose_00

3 scoring units is not very much, I would add at least one more. Also for the plague marines, if you want to stay far and shoot plasma a champ and 7 members is a waste of points, 5 and 2 plasma in a rhino is a nice bunker for cheap. Or give them meltaguns instead of plasmaguns and keep the champ with fist and throw them at the enemy. Add a unit of lesser demons to compensate for the unit of plagues that are moving foward.

Interesting...

Originally Posted by Black_rose_00

Rhinos are cheap, you double-up their points cost just by adding unneccesary upgrades. You're army is already packed with anti-infantry and you add havoc launchers, giving them combi-meltas would help against tanks. Possesion is a waste of points on a rhino, buy an other rhino instead by adding chosen or havocs or more troops.

I was worried about tarpits; I figured that against 'Nids or Guard I'd need more bug repellant. Why is possession a waste? I figure it boosts the odds of getting my boys where they need to be. (Seriously, I would love more explanation on that! )

Originally Posted by Black_rose_00

You need to add more ranged anti-tank firepower to the army or at least more meltaguns everywhere. I would use a squad of havocs with 4 missile launchers with a rhino instead of a vindicator. Or a predator or obliterators. Everything but a vindicator. Vindicators suffer from the 1 gun syndrom, once the gun blows up your tank is useless, if it gets immobilized its useless because of the short range on the gun, last but not least you have 2 units with flamers (hopefully meltas) that have to be really close to use their weapons and your only way to open a tank for them is a vidicator shell that can scatter on your boys.

Honestly the Vin was more a distraction than anything else, pulling the anti-tank fire off of the Rhinos and (assuming they arrived early) the Termies. Las preds cost a hell of a lot for this bracket IMO. The Havocs, though, might be worth it.

Here's my take on your list, with aplogies that I don't have enough time to go into the same detail as the other posts.

HQ
Chaos Lord with Terminator package, MoT, a combi-weapon and a daemon weapon.

I also really don't like the Tzeentch DW. If you wan't a Tzeentch Terminator try this: Sorcerer, MoTz, Warp Time. In Assaults he is able to use his Force Wpn and Warptime.

Having said this, some armies are a nightmare in regards to Psy stuff.

Elites
5x Chaos Terminators with the IoT, 3x combis, and a Reaper; all are Champions.

This unit really needs a PF or CF. It is quite cool to make a model with a PF/CF a Champ, for obvious reasons. I like the Reaper. It's very useful if you get a poor scatter leaving your unit a long distance from the enemy. However, with the Icons, I think a HF might be a better choice.

Troops
7x Plague Marines with a Personal Icon, two plasma guns, and a Plague Champion with a power fist.

Fine. PGs work well with PMs.

Plus two identical squads of: 10x Chaos Marines with the IoS, two flamers, and an Aspiring Champion with a power weapon and melta bombs.

All wrong for me. I would use 10x CSM, 2MG, Fist, IoCG. You need the Anti-Tank potential.

Each squad also has a possessed rhino with a 'dozer blade and a havoc launcher.

No way for Possession - far too expensive. Dozers definately good. Havoc for the PMs, extra Bolter for the CSMs.

Heavy Support
Chaos Vindicator with the same upgrades as the Rhinos.

O.k. Personally I prefer Oblits, but a Vindi is a dangerous thing and should attract attention.