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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

as we all know evolutionist's love to cast doubt on the reality of god with lotsa math and science and the whole 9 yards. but to my joy plenty of doubt can be cast for their theory as well. this came to me the night before last and was as i see it, my final affirmation of god as creator. now this is not being presented as the truth, or the answer, just my way of showing doubt is universal. and there is more than one way to interpret things. it is by no means complete just a rough draft as it was written in 1 sitting after it came to me. really just an exercise to show how easy it is to bring doubt to known beliefs with speculation.

as evolution would have it the universe came into being in a big bang around 15 billion years ago. and as the bible puts it, creation happend just thousands of years ago. so which one is right?what if both are right? well first we have to ask who is god? the bible says that god is all knowing, all seeing, and eternal, but most of all omnipotent. so if god is eternal, and omnipotent, that implies that he can do anything he wants, and he lives forever.so if god lives forever, what was god doing before he created the heavens and the earth? how long has he been in existence? how does god view the passage of time if he is eternal? when the bible says god created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th, is that a human term used by god to create understanding for a primitive people? because such things as space and time would be impossible for them to grasp? from reading the bible, it's obvious that god can see the future, so would know that man would learn these things in time, and as per the norm in the bible, because no one see's any outward signs from god (at least none they can recognize) some will use it to claim god does not exist.

at this point lets theorize the beginning of man. evolution shows man evolved up the ladder from a single celled organism, in a primordial soup (gotta love history channel : ) if you read from the bible in genesis 1, it's reads out as an evolutonary timelime in a primitive fashion, where each day as seen by man as a 24 hr. day night cycle. might be billions of years for god. again meant for them to grasp. kinda like shorthand if you will. and as for adam and eve being the sole genepool for all of humanity, that again doesen't add up for us today, but for them it was easy to grasp. today we can recognize a few things they couldn't because of our modern intellect if you will. such as in genisis 1:26-28 it states, then god said, let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds in heaven, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that moves on the earth. so god made man; in the image of god he made him; MALE and FEMALE he made them. then god blessed them; and god said to them, "be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the heaven, and over every living thing that moves over the earth." and if you read on, you know that that was god's 6th day of creation the final day before he rested, yet it states that he created man, both male and female, and gave them dominion over all the earth. curious there is no mention of adam and eve in there right? but answers the problem of genepool yes? since humans were there already. some might say that is a prolouge to creation, a sort of condensed version, as genesis 2 get's into the detail of adams creation, and the need for him to have a companion. so who were adam and eve? my best guess would be they were either chosen or created as stated in the bible as gods first to receive his word. because as stated in the bible god wants to have a relationship with us and want us to have a relationship with him, but how can we if we do not know who god is? so you can read that to be the creation that happened thousands of years ago, gods creation of the word. so to summarize there would be two creations in this theory the creation of the universe and all matter within, and the creation of god's word in primitive man.

hope you liked it, and again it's just an exercise, but for me it was enlightening.

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Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by, just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Thank you for sharing with us your thoughts on this subject, and welcome to the forum. I'm not sure I agree with them on first reading, but I appreciate the serious attempt to reconcile science and faith that I see in your musings.

However, I think you're giving the theory of evolution more credit than is its due. To my knowledge--maybe Heorhij can correct me where I'm wrong--evolution speaks only to the speciation of life already begun. The theory of evolution does not speak of the origins of the universe--what you described is actually the Big Bang theory of cosmology, not the theory of evolution--nor does it speak of how life itself began.

Thank you for sharing with us your thoughts on this subject, and welcome to the forum. I'm not sure I agree with them on first reading, but I appreciate the serious attempt to reconcile science and faith that I see in your musings.

However, I think you're giving the theory of evolution more credit than is its due. To my knowledge--maybe Heorhij can correct me where I'm wrong--evolution speaks only to the speciation of life already begun. The theory of evolution does not speak of the origins of the universe--what you described is actually the Big Bang theory of cosmology, not the theory of evolution--nor does it speak of how life itself began.

i can see your point, and i suppose i tied them both together since thats what genisis covers, heaven and earth, and creation of life. while the big bang theory is the creation of heaven and earth in this, how it came about is speculation at best. scientifically anyway. evolution covers life. albeit the actual method that caused life on earth is speculation as well. what i think i was doing was affirming to myself that the ultimate question has not been answered by evolution or the big bang. and this gave me great faith that god is real.

it's the first personal thing i've ever wrote or even shared with anyone. i've never even attemted writing until this happened to me. and i just felt compelled to share it as it helped me reach a milestone as i saw it in finding my faith.

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Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by, just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Evolution is a biological theory pertaining to the change in genes over time (generations).

Yes, it is true that Evolution and the Big Bang remain theories, but to label them as pure speculation would be giving them far too little credit. Biology isn't a strong suit of mine, so I will defer it to others, but when you speak of the Big Bang, you are speaking of a theory that is consistently being refined and is rather vague in modern theoretical and particle physics. In the last 40 years, physics has made incredible leap forwards in explaining how we have come to be. Hawking, Penrose, Steinhardt, Turok, etc. have developed theorems and theoretical models that continue to help refine and sometimes even redefine our views of the Universe (cyclical models, multiverses, nearly a dozen dimensions, etc). Yes, many variables remain untested, and they are just theories, but they shouldn't be tossed aside so easily. We will slowly be able to answer such questions; just look at the LHC and what it will offer us. These theories may not be able to answer everything for us, but untested variables should not be a source of faith.

Also, welcome to the forum!

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Yes, it is true that Evolution and the Big Bang remain theories, but to label them as pure speculation would be giving them far too little credit.

If they were speculations or proposals, then they would be hypotheses, not theories. To attain the status of a theory in science is actually quite difficult from what I understand. That being said, I'm not sure where the "Big Bang" would fall in the realm of hypotheses and theorems. I don't know if it is the Theory of the Big Bang, or if it is still some kind of a hypothesis.

Yes, it is true that Evolution and the Big Bang remain theories, but to label them as pure speculation would be giving them far too little credit.

If they were speculations or proposals, then they would be hypotheses, not theories. To attain the status of a theory in science is actually quite difficult from what I understand. That being said, I'm not sure where the "Big Bang" would fall in the realm of hypotheses and theorems. I don't know if it is the Theory of the Big Bang, or if it is still some kind of a hypothesis.

The Big Bang is so all-encompassing that it is difficult to classify it as a whole. The parts about a singularity are viewed as theory, while other aspects remain hypotheses and incomplete models (pre-Big Bang, universal nature, etc).

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

as we all know evolutionist's love to cast doubt on the reality of god with lotsa math and science and the whole 9 yards.

No, this isn't something that we all know. Evolutionism isn't a philosophical worldview like perhaps some other isms. I acknowledge evolution, but I certainly don't try to "cast doubt on the reality of God." I think maybe you are confusing evolutionism with atheism. There's no reason to do that.

Welcome to the forum! And I'm happy to hear of your milestones in your journey of faith. But I would encourage you not to allow matters of science to interfere with your faith. Personally, my faith was quite strengthened as I began to understand the reality of evolution and other scientific principles.

Exactly! Whether or not humanity was instantaneously generated, or gradually came into being, I still think the fact that man exists in his present state of cognizance defines his place in the natural order. Our self-awareness and spiritual intuition make us bridges between the natural world and the divine realm. Whether or not getting to this point was a gradual craft, whereby we took billions of years to arrive at this place, or whether God willed it instantly, in either case our existence can be interpreted as deliberate and meaningful.

Relegating everything to being "accidental" is just a way of understanding the evolutionary process, but its not as if we must understand it that way. I choose to find such a natural system equally meaningful, although I do not "believe on" evolutionary theory, and neither do scientists. If scientific research reveals something drastically different in the future regarding the origins of man, then scientists will all change their minds in a heartbeat if the evidence is far more convincing. Since the theory itself is always subject to alteration or even complete refutation, I will never completely surrender myself to its worldview. I rather surrender myself to the spiritual truths of Jesus Christ, which will remain no matter how exactly humanity came into being.

Evolution is a biological theory pertaining to the change in genes over time (generations).

Yes, it is true that Evolution and the Big Bang remain theories, but to label them as pure speculation would be giving them far too little credit. Biology isn't a strong suit of mine, so I will defer it to others, but when you speak of the Big Bang, you are speaking of a theory that is consistently being refined and is rather vague in modern theoretical and particle physics. In the last 40 years, physics has made incredible leap forwards in explaining how we have come to be. Hawking, Penrose, Steinhardt, Turok, etc. have developed theorems and theoretical models that continue to help refine and sometimes even redefine our views of the Universe (cyclical models, multiverses, nearly a dozen dimensions, etc). Yes, many variables remain untested, and they are just theories, but they shouldn't be tossed aside so easily. We will slowly be able to answer such questions; just look at the LHC and what it will offer us. These theories may not be able to answer everything for us, but untested variables should not be a source of faith.

Also, welcome to the forum!

thank you for the welcome

as far as the speculation goes, i still stand firm on that, whether you call it hypotheses, or theory, or whatever you will, when many answers are possible but none certain, all you have is speculation over hypotheses and theory.

as we all know evolutionist's love to cast doubt on the reality of god with lotsa math and science and the whole 9 yards.

No, this isn't something that we all know. Evolutionism isn't a philosophical worldview like perhaps some other isms. I acknowledge evolution, but I certainly don't try to "cast doubt on the reality of God." I think maybe you are confusing evolutionism with atheism. There's no reason to do that.

Welcome to the forum! And I'm happy to hear of your milestones in your journey of faith. But I would encourage you not to allow matters of science to interfere with your faith. Personally, my faith was quite strengthened as I began to understand the reality of evolution and other scientific principles.

Evolution describes the means; Genesis provides the meaning.

thank you for your insight, i'll reflect on that. and thank for the welcome as well

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Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by, just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

hope you liked it, and again it's just an exercise, but for me it was enlightening.

It was interesting. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can appreciate your thoughts. One word of advice, though: your posts would be much easier to read if you would include capital letters, like at the beginnings of sentences and with proper nouns like God and Genesis.

Welcome to the forum.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Understood I think i mentioned it before but i'll reiterate. Communication in written form is almost foreign to me, as in as few lines as possible, keep it short and to the point.And never any of my deep thoughts. Maybe my post here http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20150.msg313987.html#msg313987will shed a little light, although it's lacking in alot of detail i hope you get the gist of my plight. I'm a 42 year old high school dropout, not because school was hard mind you, i was a straight A student until 8th grade, when i fell in with the wrong crowd if you know what i mean. So while i know what i want to say, and what it means to me, I have to learn to be patient and reread my writings and produce them for other people to understand, if that makes any sense

And again this was an excersise i unknowingly used to reconcile my past thinking about god and the universe. Not meant as fact, just a story shared. It helped me understand that just because science or what have you is capable of casting doubt on God, the reverse is also true. which enabled me to see there was no reason for me to doubt the existence of God, because the possibilities are boundless. In other words, the line of thought i took is just one possibility among many. I was really not looking for agreement to it, was just sharing my thoughts, albeit not very clearly. i'll do my best to be more concise in future musing's, and again my apoligies for not being clear

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Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by, just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

hope you liked it, and again it's just an exercise, but for me it was enlightening.

It was interesting. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can appreciate your thoughts. One word of advice, though: your posts would be much easier to read if you would include capital letters, like at the beginnings of sentences and with proper nouns like God and Genesis.

Thank you for sharing with us your thoughts on this subject, and welcome to the forum. I'm not sure I agree with them on first reading, but I appreciate the serious attempt to reconcile science and faith that I see in your musings.

However, I think you're giving the theory of evolution more credit than is its due. To my knowledge--maybe Heorhij can correct me where I'm wrong--evolution speaks only to the speciation of life already begun. The theory of evolution does not speak of the origins of the universe--what you described is actually the Big Bang theory of cosmology, not the theory of evolution--nor does it speak of how life itself began.

No, I won't correct you because that's what I have learned as well.

The theory of biological evolution is a scientific theory that explains the diversification of the already existing life, through mechanisms such as natural selection, gene flow, genetic drift, etc. All these mechanisms are absolutely real, we do observe them as they work, so of course the theory of evolution is not "mere speculation."

so who were adam and eve? my best guess would be they were either chosen or created as stated in the bible as gods first to receive his word. because as stated in the bible god wants to have a relationship with us and want us to have a relationship with him, but how can we if we do not know who god is? so you can read that to be the creation that happened thousands of years ago, gods creation of the word. so to summarize there would be two creations in this theory the creation of the universe and all matter within, and the creation of god's word in primitive man.

That's an interesting take on Genesis...

Personally, I am with Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, who wrote that "the opening chapters of Genesis are of course concerned with certain religious truths, and are not to be taken as literal history. Fifteen centuries before modern Biblical criticism, Greek Fathers were already interpreting the Creation and Paradise stories symbolically rather than literally" http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/__P13.HTM

As far as evolution goes, I, as a biologist and university biology teacher, fully understand that it does occur, and the biological species Homo sapiens is, of course, no exception - it has evolved and it continues to evolve. But a human being is still something more than a merely biological object. We are animals, but very special ones - animals with "nus," critical and creative mind.

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

To Heorhij. I have started reading the orthodox church by ware, and have the orthodox way as well next in line. any other book recommendations are most welcome.

And again i feel the need to apologize for my obvious mistakes (though unfortunately not to me) in lumping together many different theories under one label, or using the wrong one altogether. such as saying evolutionist's, when what i should have used is atheist's. Or just said those who deny the existence of god. And using evolution, when i should have used creation. since evolution of species is pretty obvious given the wealth of evidence. But as to how life came to be, is still an answer as yet uncertain. Rereading what i write, and rethinking my positions before sharing is a good start i guess.

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Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by, just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?