from what I gather the church in the Americas will be one that is autonomous under the EP. Don't kill the messenger. I'm just saying what I've been told. I wouldn't want to be a bishop let alone be a metropolitan. Anyone that takes the job has more brass in them than I have.

That was the Phanar's plan, but things have not gone according to plan.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Sad news. Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history? I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)

Quite common, unfortunately. During the Turkokratia, for instance, the chair of St. Andrew at Constantinople was a musical chair.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do. After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA. It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops. His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult. But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in. They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice. He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews. I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job. This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office. It just did not work out. The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church. Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.

For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?

From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.

LOL. You should see all the "maturity" in the Mother Churches.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Sad news. Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history? I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)

Quite common, unfortunately. During the Turkokratia, for instance, the chair of St. Andrew at Constantinople was a musical chair.

Oh, right. To say nothing of the Patriarchates under the EP at the time.......

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O Lord although I desired to blot outwith my tears the handwriting of my many sinsAnd for the rest of my life to please Thee through sincere repentanceYet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth against my sould with his cunning

In my parish I know of no one who does not hold His (former?) Beatitude in the highest regard. We rejoiced when he was consecrated in Dallas, and though saddened by the loss we rejoiced when he was chosen as Metropolitan. We supported him in his course corrections within the OCA and his stance against ecclesial bullying from some quarters of the Orthodox world. We knew he had a steep learning curve and we knew he might make the occasional impolitic stumble or gaff…it goes with the territory of what he was called to do. In this situation I am reminded of St. Athanasius driven from his patriarch throne by detractors who were later proven enemies of the Church.

Had things not gone as they have these past few days, just speaking for myself, I had high hopes that Fr. Gerasim might be consecrated and sent to the Diocese of the South (I still hope he is consecrated and given a diocese in the OCA), but things being as they are…I and so far as I know…the rest of those in the OCA in MS…certainly the vast majority here would rejoice to see Met. Jonah given back to us in the Diocese of the South. I suspect that is the general feeling throughout the Diocese.

They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice.

I don't doubt this, Father, but it had been a running joke in non-OCA circles that the autocephalous (usually said derisively) Orthodox Church of America was managed out of a P.O. Box in NY. I can't blame the man for trying to improve the image and legitimacy of the organization.

That said, I get your broader point.

I hope it all sorts itself.

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North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

In my parish I know of no one who does not hold His (former?) Beatitude in the highest regard. We rejoiced when he was consecrated in Dallas, and though saddened by the loss we rejoiced when he was chosen as Metropolitan. We supported him in his course corrections within the OCA and his stance against ecclesial bullying from some quarters of the Orthodox world. We knew he had a steep learning curve and we knew he might make the occasional impolitic stumble or gaff…it goes with the territory of what he was called to do. In this situation I am reminded of St. Athanasius driven from his patriarch throne by detractors who were later proven enemies of the Church.

Had things not gone as they have these past few days, just speaking for myself, I had high hopes that Fr. Gerasim might be consecrated and sent to the Diocese of the South (I still hope he is consecrated and given a diocese in the OCA), but things being as they are…I and so far as I know…the rest of those in the OCA in MS…certainly the vast majority here would rejoice to see Met. Jonah given back to us in the Diocese of the South. I suspect that is the general feeling throughout the Diocese.

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"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

I think Met. Jonah was a massive failure for the OCA, and I definitely share Fr. Giyrus' sentiments.

TBH he was actually a reason why I did not consider being baptized in the OCA.

Bit much and a bit misguided [edit: misguided as a reason not to be baptized into the OCA, not your opinion] don't you think? He's not our pope.

I have my own opinions about most of the bigshots (Met. Philip, for certain), but the effectiveness shouldn't strongly affect my decision to join a particular jurisdiction.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 01:26:09 AM by Cognomen »

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North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Sad news. Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history? I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)

Forgive me, yes it was a bit much, but honestly the state that the OCA is in I think represents the stewardship from Met. Jonah.

I disagree. Metropolitan Jonah may not have had the administrative skills needed to turn the OCA around administratively, (nor the talents even to serve effectively in the primacial see), but the problems of today are not attributable to him. Don't forget the SIC Report which summarizes the decline in the Orthodox Church in America attributable to the "misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance" of the administrations of the Former Metropolitans, Theodosios and Herman, and even more so to their Chancellor, Robert Kondratick, who was a Protopresbyter, but was unfrocked due to the malfeasance attributable to his "stewardship" as Chancellor. As I recall, the SIC Report determined that there were 19 years of financial abuse, mismanagement--to use a polite term.

Never-the-less, by and large, the failings of the OCA's Central Administration in that period did not detract from the holiness of most of the priests and the parishes. And let's not ignore the administrative integrity and spirituality of the Ever-Memorable, Archbishop Job of Chicago, or of Archbishop Seraphim of Dallas, of Blessed Memory.

I don't know the answer, but it's going to take a very special hierarch, in collaboration with the Holy Synod, the national church officers, and the Metropolitan Council, to reinvigorate church wide respect for the work of the national church. Unfortunately, I could be wrong, but I don't see any of the current members of the OCA's Holy Synod, as being up to the extraordinary challenges of which the primate will be confronted. I think back to the work and tenure of Archbishop Athenagoras of America, who was the primate and only ruling bishop of the GOAA, from 1931 to 1948, before his election to the Throne of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; his sacrificial tenure was characterized by a healing of divisions in most communities across North America, and development of national Archdiocesan institutions, like establishing a seminary during the Great Depression, the Holy Cross School of Theology. (Although, the GOAA was in a far worse situation when +Athenagoras ascended the Throne of America, than is the OCA today.)

Yep, St. Athanasius…not because I think Metropolitan Jonah is at present of the same depth of theological accomplishment/spiritual life…though…who knows what things may come between this present breath and his last, God willing, many years hence. I made the comparison because HB has faced hinky opposition almost from day one…the politics of the synod…or at least some substantial quarters of it do not strike me as altogether consistent with Orthodoxy. It has made his job much tougher than it need have been. Granted he is weary, and probably as he said not temperamentally (there's some code in that word) suited to be the Metropolitan….one wonders just what type of temperament it takes…but that doesn't mean that he should not have been our hierarch, or that he was doing the job badly…just perhaps out of step with ecclesial interests which he questioned…in short for all his learning, wisdom, pastoral insight, and vision he was alas insufficiently byzantine in his political machinations to get what he wanted…while others more cunning at that art arranged for the synod's unanimous request for his resignation…at least that how it seems from here. May it please God not to have been so cynical and political…In any event HB was forced to resign and I think not justly (time will tell on that point) and this is not dissimilar to when St. Athanasius was driven from his throne. At least it's not quite as bad as what happened to St. John Chrysostom. So, yep…St. Athanasius.

Sad news. Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history? I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)

"What we are witnessing now in my opinion is the result of the disconnectedness of the Orthodox Church in America from the rest of the Orthodox world," Arey said. "Its internal politics have almost become cannibalistic in my opinion."

Fr. Arey evidently hasn't been to the rest of the Orthodox world. He also doesn't seem to realize he is in the USA.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 08:21:05 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do. After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA. It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops. His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult. But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in. They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice. He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews. I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job. This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office. It just did not work out. The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church. Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.

For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?

From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.

LOL. You should see all the "maturity" in the Mother Churches.

Mommy being a cutter has no impact on whether or not Junior is ready for anything other than safety scissors.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

If you carefully comb through the controversies surrounding Met. Jonah, you will see the 'culture war' was by far a small bump in His Beatitude's road as First Hierarch.

The main problems he encountered came from speeches in which he offended the Church of Constantinople in an unpolitical way, then later called the Tomos of Autocephaly of the OCA into question by essentially implying it could be given up in favor of an arrangement with the Episcopal Assembly. In both cases, the Holy Synod was caught off-guard, since these were major issues (inter-Orthodox relations and autocephaly itself) that the HS has a role in.

His Beatitude had a habit of musing in public, which is never something that someone of such consequence should do. After all, when he speaks, he speaks not for himself but the entire OCA. It appears that he never entirely grasped the idea that the OCA is a large ship and that you can't jerk the wheel this way or that before you end up breaking the rudder.

This was all the more magnified when he agreed to take a leave of absence, then 'un-agreed' after the meeting with his bishops. His pattern of quick decisions that led him to even quicker changes of mind really made working with him difficult. But, it was his ignoring of the other bishops that ultimately did him in. They tried to explain to him why he could not simply move the whole operation of the OCA to Washington, DC, during a true financial crisis, and he never seemed to accept the advice. He tried to jerk the wheel, and ended up in conflict with his own administration.

Then, there was his unfortunate involvement with Fr. Joseph Fester that was uncovered by the leaked emails posted on OCANews. I'm sure you don't want to wade into that controversy here.

In the end, Met. Jonah is a good man, but very clearly not cut out for the job. This is not an insult, not every monk is material for such an office. It just did not work out. The difficulty of the OCA is that it has had a string of bad choices, which is really painful when you are a young church. Let's hope the next metropolitan is a better fit.

For those here who are members of OCA parishes: What do the faithful in your parish think about this issue? Is this all just something going on in the Synod, or were the laypeople and parish clergy also discontent with Met. Jonah's leadership? Would they prefer to keep him?

From my limited experience: there are those thatmourn him as if it's a presage of the world's ending, and there are those that are glad; he was really naive though thinking that he can just dive head in into the whole "culture-war" the way he did, when his church wasn't on the same page as him by and large. But with friends like Dreher, a metropolitan hardly needs enemies.

And now the Synod has shown why Metropolitan Jonah was right and that the Tomos is worth a roll of used toilet paper in the face of possible American unity. We really don't have a mature enough church in this nation for autocephaly, and won't until after a century or so of actually having a united American Church.

LOL. You should see all the "maturity" in the Mother Churches.

Mommy being a cutter has no impact on whether or not Junior is ready for anything other than safety scissors.

LOL. Touché

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Tell St. Basil the Great and St. John Chrysostom that. They had a lot to say about how we are to treat others, especially the poor. What is going on in the culture often affects a persons soul. There are many aspects to the salvation of souls. Cultural values affect all of us as we often adopt them, even many that are totally against the teachings of Christ. If the Church cares about the salvation of souls, then it has to take a stand against these things. Jesus took on the Jewish culture of His time and it didn't make Him very popular with the the religious rulers of His day, did it? In other words, Jesus didn't hesitate to say something about the values of the society.

Yep, St. Athanasius…not because I think Metropolitan Jonah is at present of the same depth of theological accomplishment/spiritual life…though…who knows what things may come between this present breath and his last, God willing, many years hence. I made the comparison because HB has faced hinky opposition almost from day one…the politics of the synod…or at least some substantial quarters of it do not strike me as altogether consistent with Orthodoxy. It has made his job much tougher than it need have been. Granted he is weary, and probably as he said not temperamentally (there's some code in that word) suited to be the Metropolitan….one wonders just what type of temperament it takes…but that doesn't mean that he should not have been our hierarch, or that he was doing the job badly…just perhaps out of step with ecclesial interests which he questioned…in short for all his learning, wisdom, pastoral insight, and vision he was alas insufficiently byzantine in his political machinations to get what he wanted…while others more cunning at that art arranged for the synod's unanimous request for his resignation…at least that how it seems from here. May it please God not to have been so cynical and political…In any event HB was forced to resign and I think not justly (time will tell on that point) and this is not dissimilar to when St. Athanasius was driven from his throne. At least it's not quite as bad as what happened to St. John Chrysostom. So, yep…St. Athanasius.

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"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~

Sad news. Just out of curiousity, how common is the deposition of a primate in history? I've read a reasonalbe amount, and the impression I get is that it's extraordinary and often either the result of misconduct or (more often) political factors, e.g. the case of EP Arsenios and Emperor Michael Palaeologos.

(I'm not accusing Metropolitan Jonah or the Synod of anything, just making a statement)

Metropolitan Jonah was not deposed.

Correct. He has not been asked to give up his episcopate. He has resigned as Primate of the Synod, not as a Bishop, and specifically requests another episcopal assignment within the OCA.

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Have you seen the Hungarian Constitution?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Maybe. But how to relate to those who face contemporary issues certainly is the Church's business. We don't save the souls of people facing serious temptations by telling them that they should sin.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I think that many of us have a problem with the term 'culture wars' in that the moral issues with which we strongly adhere to are wrapped into a package of political and economic theories to which many of us do not subscribe. Also, the 'culture warriors' are for the large part Evangelical Protestants - representatives of many of the same groups who insist on proselytizing in our ancestral homelands as if we were never Christian. This rankles many of us - particularly when you read nonsense like this: http://www.euroteamoutreach.org/index.php?p=cmo. Part of the war they are fighting is to co-opt us - the believers in the Apostolic Faith - the Orthodox.

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Have you seen the Hungarian Constitution?

LMAO!!

That's fantastic. Really hoping we're on the same page on this one. Care to elaborate? PM me

Orthodoxy should concentrate on saving souls. The Culture Wars are struggles between the fundamentalist and the liberal currents that both came out of the Protestant Reformation. They are none of our business.

Have you seen the Hungarian Constitution?

I think Ialmisry's point is that some of these culture wars are taken up in the Hungarian Constitution, like describing Hungary in the 20th century as leading to moral "decay"- even though who was leading the country in the 1990's, which was the period that the century led to?

Quote

Background [from before the 2011 Constitution]Statute I of 1920 confirmed the monarchical form of government (albeit with a vacant throne, the king's powers being exercised by [fascist] regent Miklós Horthy and his ministers)... Statute XLVII dethroned the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary

PreambleWe are proud that our people has over the centuries defended Europe in a series of struggles

Like the Huns and Magyars that invaded from Asia in the Middle Ages?

Quote

We honour the achievements of our historical constitution and we honour the Holy Crown, which embodies the constitutional continuity of Hungary’s statehood and the unity of the nation... We do not recognise the suspension of our historical constitution due to foreign occupations... We do not recognise the communist constitution of 1949, since it was the basis for tyrannical rule; therefore we proclaim it to be invalid.

Hungary's first constitution was the 1949 Stalinist one. What is the Holy Crown of Hungary? The one dethroned in the 1920's?

Quote

We date the restoration of our country’s self-determination, ...from the second day of May 1990...We hold that after the decades of the twentieth century which led to a state of moral decay, we have an abiding need for spiritual and intellectual renewal.

Would the Constitution's authors happen to have met the people in power from 1990-2000?

I wanted to ask what was the real deal with the problems about Metropolitan Jonah. You see, it's very unfortunate he wasn't getting along with the Synod, and the move to an expensive Washington place sounds pretty counterproductive. But the part about having an inner circle around him trying to help his image with internet PR or telling him to be stronger sounds like a petty issue.

Plus, things like signing a document against abortion and gay stuff, or taking a position on the relations of the OCA with other American Churches sound like neutral if not positive steps.

So it seems they should try to work things out more, unless there is something I am missing. Personally I would have liked to see Bishop Job as metropolitan, but it was good to try to have a new person to deal with the older problems. And why get rid of someone as important as a Metropolitan because of simple personal disagreements. So I admit perhaps there could well be some other very bad problem, but I don't feel ready to make some judgment about the situation. Maybe it's better that way? Generally I think it's better for people to be informed and know about problems so they can be dealt with.

I wanted to ask what was the real deal with the problems about Metropolitan Jonah. You see, it's very unfortunate he wasn't getting along with the Synod, and the move to an expensive Washington place sounds pretty counterproductive. But the part about having an inner circle around him trying to help his image with internet PR or telling him to be stronger sounds like a petty issue.

Plus, things like signing a document against abortion and gay stuff, or taking a position on the relations of the OCA with other American Churches sound like neutral if not positive steps.

So it seems they should try to work things out more, unless there is something I am missing. Personally I would have liked to see Bishop Job as metropolitan, but it was good to try to have a new person to deal with the older problems. And why get rid of someone as important as a Metropolitan because of simple personal disagreements. So I admit perhaps there could well be some other very bad problem, but I don't feel ready to make some judgment about the situation. Maybe it's better that way? Generally I think it's better for people to be informed and know about problems so they can be dealt with.

I'm not sure I know what the reasons were, but I'm pretty sure we'll find out more as news trickles out over the next few weeks. Until then, I wouldn't speculate that much. It's probably best we not know until we get the truth from the more official sources.

From what little I have gathered from OCA.org over the last couple of years, though, I get the picture that Metropolitan Jonah often didn't collaborate with his Synod and frequently worked against them on issues of importance to the whole of the OCA. I'm learning from my role as president of a non-profit organization that the role of president--in His Beatitude's case, president of the Synod--requires much more the ability to build a consensus within his team than the ability to make decisions on his own. In fact, I would say that Apostolic Canon 34 kinda requires this team-building ability of a national primate. It's not just about doing the right things, it's about doing the right things the right way.

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess. Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement. Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly. Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure. Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources. It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life. Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives. Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively. Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery. Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic. I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement. "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess.

That's only your guess. You don't know. Besides, I don't think it quite fair to compare the EP's synod with the synod of the OCA. Each synod has its own personality.

Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

Yes, the unanimity says a lot of things that just a majority vote does not say.

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement.

I'm not aware that Metr. Jonah is retiring. It's quite likely that he'll accept another episcopal assignment. Regardless of what you say in speculation about how he may act as a former primate, I have more faith in his maturity than that.

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess. Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement. Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly. Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure. Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources. It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life. Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives. Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively. Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery. Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic. I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement. "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

There is so many accusations flying around the internet it is so hard for the regular guy to figure out what is what. I often wonder if part of the problem is the OCA's style of gov't. Do the other jurisdictions choose their Primate in the same manner? I don't think ROCOR does, but I'm unsure how the Antiochians or Greeks do it. Do they give the people a voice? It seems to me that since many people have a say in how the church is run (local and national level) that everyone has an opinion and then it become very difficult to wade through all the voices in the conversation.

There is so many accusations flying around the internet it is so hard for the regular guy to figure out what is what. I often wonder if part of the problem is the OCA's style of gov't. Do the other jurisdictions choose their Primate in the same manner? I don't think ROCOR does, but I'm unsure how the Antiochians or Greeks do it. Do they give the people a voice? It seems to me that since many people have a say in how the church is run (local and national level) that everyone has an opinion and then it become very difficult to wade through all the voices in the conversation.

It differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. For example, tomorrow ACROD is having a Sobor of priests only to elect a new Bishop. There is no lay participation in this process. Can't speak for others though...

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess. Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement. Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly. Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure. Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources. It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life. Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives. Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively. Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery. Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic. I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement. "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted. Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension. However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him. That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess. Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement. Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly. Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure. Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources. It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life. Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives. Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively. Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery. Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic. I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement. "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted. Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension. However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him. That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.

Metropolitan Herman should have been deposed. Since we don't really have a concept of retirement in the church, couldn't he still be deposed?

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess. Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement. Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly. Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure. Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources. It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life. Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives. Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively. Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery. Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic. I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement. "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

It would be interesting to compare how Met. HERMAN is being treated with what they want to do with Met. JONAH.

I would be inclined to agree with this suggested analogy, but the issue, as noted elsewhere above, is that Metropolitan Jonah resigned and his resignation was accepted. Metropolitan Herman served as a priest, bishop and primate for so long that he earned a pension, whether the church desired for him to be able to secure his pension or not, they had no choice because there is no mechanism to preclude his receipt of his pension. However, Metropolitan Jonah, having served as a monastery's abbot, while a Hieromonk, probably did not earn a salary or participate in the pension system--though I don't know for sure, given his age and lack of significant tenure in the pension system, is not eligible for a pension; even if he qualified for disability, his lack of time in the pension system would preclude his receipt of a disability payment, in an amount that could support him. That's why I recommended that a salary be granted to him.

Metropolitan Herman should have been deposed. Since we don't really have a concept of retirement in the church, couldn't he still be deposed?

Matters of retirement (or not) are strictly within the purview of each local church. In this case, the OCA Statute is definitive and yes, there is such a thing as retirement in the OCA.

I've never understood what the OCA's Holy Synod's problem was with Metropolitan Jonah; there are plenty of Synods across the world and through history that were led by a primate who isn't prone to collaborate with his fellow hierarchs. How much collaborating does any one think Patriarch Bartholomew does with the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople, unlike his predecessor who exhibited a humble and submissive persona? Not too much is my guess. Was His Eminence forced to resign because he is a political conservative and all the members of the Synod are liberals? Hard to believe, if that is the case. Yet, how could each member of the Synod be so opposed to his primatial leadership, that they would unanimously vote to force his resignation?

No one has even alleged that that His Eminence violated canons in his primatial leadership, or that he lacks spirituality. Thus, I would beg all of you with influence in the OCA, and all common members of the OCA, to lobby in support of fair treatment of His Eminence in retirement. Suggest a life long salary equivalent to the pension he would have earned if he served in the primatial see for a long term; no less than $70,000.00, but no more than $100,000.00 annually, plus the OCA should provide him with health care plan permanently--requiring him to participate somewhat in payment of its premiums, and a small housing subsidy, possibly. Yes, this would be an administrative burden, but he never sought the primacy and he isn't guilty of canonical infractions, or abuse of his office (unlike his two predecessors) during his tenure. Grant him these benefits with a well worded contract, appropriately executed, approved by the OCA's legal counsel, the Holy Synod of Bishops, and the Metropolitan Council, so that future church leadership cannot dispose of the contract, if they feel it is a waste of the OCA's resources. It is not uncommon for a church to provide for a retired hierarch with life long benefits, in the GOAA we had a few line items in our National Ministries budget related to Archbishop Iakovos' Office, former Archbishop of America, until His Eminence's passing from this life. Of course, the contract should require him to maintain a priestly behavior, to not speak or act in opposition to OCA policies and initiatives. Metropolitan Jonah probably should not be elected to another diocesan see because a disgruntled bishop, one who perceives he was forced to resign without cause, is prone to not being a team player, and if he didn't have the proficiency to effectively serve the primatial see, he probably doesn't have the appropriate skills to serve and administer a diocese effectively. Perhaps he could be encouraged to write and publish, to do things that benefit the church, using he talents that he does possess, talents that made him a successful Abbot of a monastery. Hopefully he can afford to purchase a small retirement home that would be near a monastery, so that he could join in the life of a monastery, as he is a monastic. I would also suggest he be permitted a place of honor at church-wide banquets, as the retired primate of the OCA, and that he be invited to celebrate the Divine Services of the church at national and diocesan related activities.

May the OCA have the maturity to permanently treat their former primate with the respect he deserves; and may His Eminence find peace of mind in his retirement. "Eis polla eti, Despota!"

Sounds like enjoying the benefits of the welfare state after having lectured against it at Acton and The American Enterprise.