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hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

-Richard Reavies

When did this happen? I mean....I know it's possible and all...but...did it really happen?

Happened to me. I'm a ni-dan in aikido in good shape. I went to play with a small bjj club to expand my horizons. I got taken down almost every time by the beginners and choked out in a matter of seconds by the middle level guys.

At first this kind of upset me, but I've been thinking about it.

Why did this happen? Is it because I suck? No. It's because we were playing their game. They train their game every day. We train ours. Remember, there are rules, some explicit: no atemi; no single arm chokes... some obvious: no hidden weapons; no friends to double team... some implied: no long term damage; no sneaky stuff like talking your way out of the fight...

There's also the question of mindset. They train everyday to be aggressive and to choke out their opponents. I don't. I train everyday to stay relaxed and look for another way out. I don't really want to hurt the other guy. They train everyday NOT to tap out. Two guys will be rolling and one will get an arm bar and the other will shout, ‘I'm not tapping out! I'm not tapping out!' I tap out as soon as I feel pain in a joint. I've got nothing to prove there (I'm also older than these guys, except for the professor).

Does this mean bjj is a superior martial art? Not at all. It means it works well on the bjj mat. Bring them to an aikido dojo, where they have to actually try to hit you, where you can move around, where they have to be aware of other attackers, where they have to assume you may have a knife, where your goal is NOT to hurt the other guy and I suspect things'll be different.

It's a mistake to think that you can magically pull off aikido techniques on an experienced bjj guy in a free form situation. All the wrist locks/pins... they're very hard to apply to someone not attacking you. But it's also a mistake to think that this means bjj is somehow better in the real world.

Every training situation has rules. People in the sparing arts think that their situation somehow parallels the real world. But the truth is, the sparing situation, where both parties are on equal footing, calmly looking for an opening... how often does this situation arise outside the dojo? In my experience, never (we're not counting 4 o'clock in the alley behind school in the fourth grade). If some stranger and I are circling the room, rolling up our sleeves, getting ready for a ‘real' fight, I've seriously got to rethink what got me there. What could he have done that demands retribution? How bad a guy is he? He's so bad that I'm gong to risk getting disfigured over it? (even if I can kick his ass, there are so many other factors, I could slip and fall... way too much luck involved) If he did something so heinous, call the cops.

Terry Dobson used to say that when the s--t goes down you'll probably have a bag of groceries in one arm and a baby in the other. He would sometimes train holding a baby doll. Getting jumped on the way to your car, that seems a more likely scenario. If he's got a knife or a gun, give him the keys. If not, pop him and break out. If someone lunges at you out of the blue (the only real world physical conflict I've encountered) aikido is exactly what you want. Step aside and keep walking. I don't want to go to ground with a stranger on the street if I can help it. I don't even want to get close enough to throw a koshi.

Anyway, I learned a lot from these bjj guys and when I have some time, I'm going back. What will be interesting to see is if the aikido principals I've been training all these years, if they will speed my progress in bjj. Only one way to find out...

Boon,
I'm not sure about which pin you're talking about. Are you referring to locking uke's arm with his hand up on your shoulder? Or locking it on the ground with your hand behind their elbow, other hand on their wrist?
Either way, the key to the reversal is awareness, and continuing the momentum of the technique before it's fully completed. All techniques have a beginning, middle, and end. It's much harder to reverse the technique at the end of the end phase!
If the arm is being locked on the floor, I would attempt to roll out of the technique. The arm may be immobilized, so you must move the parts of your body that are free (i.e. hips, other arm, knees). If the arm is perpendicular to the ground and being locked, I would create space by getting up on my elbow and knees, then turn back into my opponent, switching my hips underneath me. I may be able to replace guard, but more likely I'll be side-mounted. Which is still an inferior position, but better than where I was before, and escaping from side-mount isn't that difficult once you know what to do.
I hope this helps answer your question.
Roy

Roy,

Thank you for answering. The immobilization I referred to is the one where you have uke on the floor, lying on his stomach and you cuddle his arm onto your body and apply a twist until he taps out. Your position will be at the side of the uke. Ude hideri is the Japanese name. This immobilization is the one which aikidoka typically end when he finishes nikyo or yonkyo.

I totally agree with awareness and sensitivity being the successful ingredient in reversal. I have seen my uke rolling out of it, when my lock is sloppy. Other times, he is unable to roll out if I have the lock correctly placed. Personally, I have to improvise the lock to prevent uke from escaping, and they work... through trial and error of course.

Another aspect I want to touch on is that many nage will just let go if uke decide to escape. Personally I try to go with the uke's flow and stick to him like magnet to metal on the ground and when the opportunity arises, reapply the lock. The lock can be the traditional aikido locks, or the judo shime-waza (choke hold) type. I am personally not very good in kesa-gatame (ground hold) so I avoid doing them.

I have also experienced brilliant reversal where-by I thought I have sucessfully apply on my senior (adjutant sensei actually) a choke hold on the ground and he was able to counter it with a painful arm-bar (waki-gatame).

Bear in mind, that I live in a place where BJJ is non-existent, and neither of us know any BJJ stuff. But these are all logical moves and seem rather natural actually. The key thing is awareness as Roy mentioned, sensitivity and the ability to go with the flow. The more relax you are, the less likely it hurts and the more success you have to counter your opponent.

I have been doing aikido for the past 10 years now, if I still keep on doing the traditional type (or kata type aikido) I would have quit much earlier. Each time I attend class, I am still amazed at the potential of applying aiki principle in non-kata circumstances, this is what makes me keep going back to class.

My sensei said, don't compartmentalize aikido as aikido, judo as judo or jujutsu as jujutsu. This tend to stifles your creativity. Aikido, judo, jujutsu are just a continuous line on a spectrum of martial application. Bear in mind, aikido was once aiki-jujutsu not too long ago (less than 100 years), i.e., it was just another school of jujutsu like Fusen-ryu, Kito-ryu or Kosen-ryu etc.

Considering that so many Aikido techniques are barred in the BJJ no holds barred tournaments, it is probably pretty effective.

Coming from judo, BJJ has nothing that is not found in any other martial art. people are just bamboozled by the marketing of it.

My experience with BJJr's is that they can not stand up and fight and they like to scream foul when they lose.

If you like Aikido and think it wil lfit your needs then take it. Just don't fall into the trap later on of letting some one with more BJJ training than you have in Aikido get you into a contest based on thier rules to "prove that Aikido doesn't work".

Could you elaborate on which techniques are barred in BJJ tournaments? In my experience, the only thing disallowed is finger manipulation and very high risk submissions that twist the knee, like the heelhook (however, these are often legal at no-gi competitions).. All wrist locks, shoulder locks, armbars, leglocks, and chokes are allowed. I have seen black belt matches ended by wristlocks, and I'm quite partial to them myself.

I also strongly disagree that the uniqueness of BJJ is nothing more than a clever marketing scheme. Yes, techniques are techniques, and many of the techniques in BJJ are also found in Judo, Sambo, etc. What makes it different is the details: it's how you enter into, for example, a triangle choke; it's the transitions between techniques; and it's the emphasis on positional dominance. Judo was my first art, and in some ways I'll always be a judoka, but the depth that BJJ has brought to the newaza game is astounding.

Boon,

Great post. I completely agree that the application of aiki-principles is almost limitless, whether standing or on the ground. Since I've trained in Judo, Aikido, and BJJ, I see little difference between them all in application. Certainly, teaching methodologies differ, as well as technical emphasis, but in a free flow situation, all these grappling arts boil down to the basics: Push and pull, get to an advantageous angle, use leverage, timing, and sensitivity. And a little momentum helps everything.

A pure Aikidoka having an upper hand against a BJJ expert or Judoka? Not likely.

Just thought I'd write my two cents out..... I'd have to disagree with the above comment, and hears why.. I can produce a similar argument "A pure BJJ expert or Judoka having an upper hand against and Aikidoka? Not Likely." You see the later is no more convincing than the former, simply bias. I'm studying both arts, neither is more effective then the other, they both have weaknesses and strengths. Personally I prefer to keep on my feet because I consider wrestling on the ground too dangerous, especially if your smaller. Also the ability to defend yourself against others who may chip in to help their friend is extremely limited. However, through studying BJJ I can work on more realistic defenses from an attacker shooting the guard, or if I get knocked over, I can find a way to get back to my feet. In what I have seen both arts are effective at turning the attacker into a human knot, Aikido just prefers to not become part of that knot.

When I started with BJJ one of the newer students approached me from the side while I was talking with another student, shot my guard... and took me down ( the problem was the Ma ai was to close, but I had no reason to keep a larger distance because fellow student shouldn't be considered a threat). Fine we played his game. Later I asked if I could use him to work on my defenses against this attack , he agreed and I got my proper Ma ai, in this situation, he shot the guard, I turned he did a face plant in the mat and found himself incapable of movement. You see two scenarios with two outcomes... Both work if you use them right. As it has been said time and time again, it's the artist not the art. Saying Aikido is better then BJJ or vice versa... is like saying a pen is better than a pencil, both write, both do the same thing. Aikido is a martial art so is BJJ they both do the same thing, keep you safe. Kind Regards.....
Derek Gaudet

Oh...I have a lot of experience, my good friend. 13 years in Muay Thai, Karate, Wrestling and Chinese martial arts. I've also dabbled in BJJ, Judo, and Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu. I Started taking Aikido almost a year ago...at least the way we train...it seems a lot more effective and realistic than BJJ...for the streets at least, you know? Also...I've been in a lot of street confrontations...I used to go to schools where pick-pocketing was a daily ritual for some and getting kicked in the face or thrown into something was their answer from me, lol. I only train for the streets...especially since I live in the inner city here and throwing/off balancing techniques and escape/counter techniques (which you learn in Aikido) are the things that work best in street self defense situations...not trying to get someone in a triangle choke hold for fifteen minutes.

Oh...I have a lot of experience, my good friend. 13 years in Muay Thai, Karate, Wrestling and Chinese martial arts. I've also dabbled in BJJ, Judo, and Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu. I Started taking Aikido almost a year ago...at least the way we train...it seems a lot more effective and realistic than BJJ...for the streets at least, you know? Also...I've been in a lot of street confrontations...I used to go to schools where pick-pocketing was a daily ritual for some and getting kicked in the face or thrown into something was their answer from me, lol. I only train for the streets...especially since I live in the inner city here and throwing/off balancing techniques and escape/counter techniques (which you learn in Aikido) are the things that work best in street self defense situations...not trying to get someone in a triangle choke hold for fifteen minutes.

This was in a reply to someone on the previous page...just so you guys know, lol.

I didn't say anything about picking fights or getting in fights; I am wondering how aikido does against BJJ. If I wanted to really kick his arse, I would join BJJ or some other, possibly more violent martial art. He is friendly-fighting, if that makes any sense...joke fighting, if that is any clearer.

Sorry for any confusion.
Richard

Hello fellow budo-ka,
Aikido is not this type of martial art in the first place. It is a lifstyle of cultivating peace, harmony and compassion and then incorperating them into every aspect of our existance for a peaceful harmonious lifestyle, that aids the world in becoming a better place. It is not the petty type of art that is so common today " my sensei could beat your sensei" "my kung fu can beat your kung fu" this type of attitude is wrong from the beggining. You should htink of Aikido as a life long journy of harmony, peace, compassion and self-discovery, not a way of fighting, but a way of not fighting.
That is the true way of
Sincerly,
--joshua paszkiewicz

You sound like someone who has very little experience in martial arts or being in physical confrontations. A pure Aikidoka having an upper hand against a BJJ expert or Judoka? Not likely.

I agree it sounds assumptive to say people on the streets aren't that great at ground-fighting (at the very least, planning on odds leaves you open to that rare but existing one-percent), but I think it's equally assumptive to suggest someone who has only trained in aikido will be at an automatic disadvantage against someone of similar experience in another art like judo or BJJ. It's more about your teacher than your art (or, how you train compared to what general stylistic approach you train in), in my opinion. I think it's also a bit assumptive to think BJJ is only about ground-fighting, but I would say that ground-fighting is best done on a mat and not the street. I'd rather not grapple with someone under a non-controlled situation and would much rather throw them if possible, considering I know my buddies would love to see a guy attacking me with his arms and legs preoccupied in some lock. All in all, train for everything you can think of and if you develop doubts about your given school, check out another method and compare.
Cheers!

Hello everyone,
thought I might as well add my "two cents"
In physical confrontation a truly dedicated Aikidoka would have the "upper hand" in my opinion. My teacher can stun you in your trackes without even touching you, it sounds far fetched but its true, this comes from his aikido training with Hikitsuchi Hanshi to my understanding. He teaches the use of the mind is very important, that when we have the right mind we can overcome any obstical, such things as "I Tai Ka", and "Zan Shin", "Wa Shin", "Fu Do Shin" and many all come together, and allow to two people to connect on a mental and spirtual level, in this way you can anticipate your opponets rash actions, and very quickly overcome him or her, with little effort, but strong mind.

There are always some here that get so defensive when their assumptions about Aikido are challenged. For the record I want to note that I am not starting an argument about Judo/BJJ being better than Aikido. I am responding to a previous post claiming that Aikido would have an upper hand against a Judoka or BJJ practicioner on the street.

First I want to point out that there is a big difference between Judo and BJJ, while BJJ focuses almost exclusively on groundfighting, Judoka are quite skilled at standup throwing and use groundfighting as a secondary skill. I have a little training in BJJ but since my focus has been in Judo I will only speak to my experience in it as it relates to Aikido. Due to the many hours the average Judoka dedicates to live sparring in standup and ground fighting, compared to the very little randori the average Aikidoka does, I find it would be very very unlikely for an Aikidoka to defeat a judoka of comparable experience.

We have had many Aikidoka train at our Judo dojo and they learn much faster than other students and pick up Judo fast, but their Aikido techniques are very limited against a trained Judoka. I have given them all permission to use Aikido against me in randori and have yet to have anyone apply anything effectively on me.

Let me clarify that I don't think Aikido is ineffective, I just don't think it is particularly useful against experienced grapplers.

I agree with many here that bringing a fight to the ground deliberately is probably not a good idea in most situations, but to assume that is all a Judoka has in their arsenal is pretty ignorant. A judoka is intent on ending an encounter with a debilitating throw and only following up with groundwork if neccesary.

It is dangerous for an Aikidoka to assume that they can absolutely prevent a fight from going to the ground. What will you do if you find yourself there and have no skills to get yourself out of that situation? I think the weakness of BJJ is their almost complete dedication to fighting on the ground but a big weakness of Aikido is a complete absence of that type of training.

A BJJ player will not automatically go to the ground in every fight. At least at my club, we take alot of time practising throws, doing takedown only sparring, ... etc. The BJJ player has a lot of stand-up options available to them, and since they practice throws against fully resistant opponents, they will have very good strong throws. Not only this, because we have to denfend against fully committed takedowns all the time in a non-cooperative format, we have good takedown defense as well. I know that if I got in a fight with more than one person, I would rely on the throws I learn in BJJ, and only fight from the ground if I get taken down.
Someone said that the reason they coudn't use their Aikido against the Bjj people was because they were not throwing strikes at them. I have 2 answers for this. #1 A huge portion of the Aikido training I received started from a grappling situation: someone pulling the lapels, pushing me, grabbing my wrist, trying to circle around for a choke,... etc. Aikido should work against these things when the Bjj player tries to do them to you. #2 A lot of people who do Bjj are interested in NHB, and will spar NHB if you are freindly with them (or if you really piss them off lol). If you want to test your ability against strikes, just ask one of your Bjj buddies to put on some MMA gloves, and go to it.
Also someone claiming to practise Bjj claimed that the defended against another Bjj player who was "shooting the gaurd", by doing a tenkan. I have never heard the phrase "shooting the guard" before. Their is "shooting" (attempting a leg takedown where you change levels and "shoot" in - the kind of takedown you see in high school wrestling alot), and their is "pulling guard", which means jumping up and wrapping your legs around your opponents hips. "shooting the gaurd" really doesn't make any sense. I suspect that you are either very new to BJJ, or do not do BJJ. Also a properly executed shot is extremely hard to defend against. Doing a tenkan would not result in the person shooting falling over, if they were doing it right, because you are supposed to be balanced the whole time.

"Jim, Could you elaborate on which techniques are barred in BJJ tournaments?"

I know at one time Kote Gaeshi and Nikkajop were barred. Here's how I know that.

I trained at an Aikido Dojo that also taught Jujutsu. The jujutsu club was interested in getting involved in the Gracie tournaments. That led to the son of the teacher being invited out to train at some of the Gracie schools in L.A. and Las Vegas. He was a brown belt preparing for Shodan. He reported back that they never fully explained thier rules to him and each time he submitted someone they told him that technqiue violated the rules. He came back rather unimpressed with them.

There was a local tournament coming up that the dojo was trying to prepare for. Knowing that there were barred techniques they wanted to know in advance what the rules would be so that they could eliminate the barred techniques from thier practice, which would allow them to develop a strategy and find a work around for techniques that they likes that may be banned. The gracies refused to provide the rules in advance, saying there will be a rules meeting before the tournament. That would have the Gracie team training according ot the rules that they wrote then springing a surpise on all the other competitors just moments before the competition. That would not guarantee that the Gracie team would win all matches, but it surely put the non-Gracie teams at a disadvantage. The dojo decided to not go to the tournament.

Kotegaeshi and NIkkajo are currently allowed, and to my knowledge have always been legal. I have seen wristlocks win matches at the highest levels.

If the son of your Jujutsu dojo instructor was unimpressed by training with the Gracies, then he must have standards higher than many. many world class martial artists. Hearsay is one thing- I'd invite you to actually feel it for yourself. I have many Aikido yudansha, from excellent lineages, in my grappling classes that are impressed with the Gracie style techniques, and are hungry to learn more.

I think it was a missed opportunity for the son of your jujutsu instructor to not go and clean house at the tournament. After all, he could have submitted them and shown how ineffectiveness of the world's premier groundfighting art! It all sound very likely...

I have to ask one burning question regarding BJJ ... why would you ever take a fight to the ground and roll around in the broken glass and spilt alcohol on the floor of a bar, whilst simultaneously having your opponents mates kick you in the head whilst you roll around?...

Because you're master there. Sure enough people may try to hit you but between you and the other guy on the ground with you - only one of you is getting up.

And just because those UFC and NHB guys seem to take ages groundfighting on TV - don't think you'll last 2 seconds down there if you're not trained. They'll snap your elbows off, crush your ribs or knock you out before you even know where they are. And if that is a problem then you shouldn't be rolling around on the ground trying to hurt them.

Groundwork is an art trained at a very high level these days and it shouldn't be taken lightly with arguments like 'ah but in a dirty bar someone would kick you' - it is extreme and it is probably insulting to a lot of groundfighters - the implication being they inhabit that kind of place.

I want to first make sure that I did not leave the impression that my friend (the Jujutsu teachers son) won every match. He did actually lose some.
But those he won using Kotegaeshi and Nikkajo, after the submission he was told they were barred technqiues.

They may now have the rules posted on a web site. If they were available back then, they should have directed others to the site so they would know the rules. For this tournament, the promoters were refusing to make the rules known prior to the event, despite numerous requests for the rules.

Maybe they cleaned up thier act now. But back then they left the impression that they were trying to fix the tournaments and cried foul every time they lost.

I don't think the Gracies try and fix the rules to their advantage but they do pick their fights carefully to minimize the possibility of losing.

But the rules lawyers are definately in play at various MMA events. In UFC for example, you can not knee someone in the face when they shoot for your legs, this puts wrestlers at an advantage against somone trained in Muay Thai or other striking art.

BJJ is no longer the dominate style of fighting for MMA but it is the best style for groundfighting, they have to crosstrain to round out their skills just like everyone else.

Every martial art has weaknesses that need to be balanced with other types of training. What gets me is the Aikidoka (or any other martial artist) that think their style is perfectly suitable for any type of situation. It simply is not true.

Originally jujitsu included all this type of training: groundfighting, joint locks, throws, strikes, etc. And I am not talking about the various modern Japanese influenced jujitsu schools that we see today that are pretty much just a weak mixture of karate, judo, and aikido. Jujitsu really does not exist anymore as it was originally practiced.

Jujitsu split up into a variety of martial arts specializing in one aspect of fighting. Aikido focuses on joint locks and multiple opponents, Judo on big throws and newaza, BJJ on groundfighting, karate on striking etc. None of these is a complete system, they all have weaknesses in particular situations.

I am particularly biased towards Judo because if you practice all it has to offer you will cover the most apects of fighting when compared to other arts. Throws & groundwork combined with frequent randori makes you a formidible and well rounded grappler at close range. The katas teach many of the same joint manipulation techniques as Aikido as well as defense against strikes and weapons.

I think Aikido, BJJ, and karate all have valuable martial applications and are quite good if the practioner gets some sort of crosstraining to round out the weaknesses, but on their own they can get you in trouble fast. BJJ is not very effective in multiple attacker situations or any circumstance where going to the ground is not a good idea, Aikido starts to break down when a situation turns to grappling or the opponent is very skilled at striking, and karate is pretty much hopeless after the striking range in breeched. Judo if practiced exclusively for sport does limit some of the applications of the art as well.

But in a style vs. style fight, I think most Aikido and Karate practioners would be at a disadvantage since they rely on some medium range distance to be successful, if that distance is breeched and they have no grappling training it is pretty much over for them if their opponents does have those skills.

Minimize the risk of losing...I like that idea. I know that sometimes it is difficult to imagine ground fighting as efficient or true combat, but ground fighting is important to rounded combat training and martial arts. BJJ has some advantages that we sacrifice in training, and vice versa. Aikido is rooted in a concept of warfare, where ground fighting is a disadvantage; that has nothing to do with the superiority of any style over another.

I don't know if a couple of bad experiences is enough to condemn an entire martial art. If so, I would no longer practice aikido...

Sorry, but I can't accept this. Visit www.e-budo.com and under koryu arts, the jujutsu forum. There you will find many extent arts classified as jujutsu that are quite old. Some arts are composite arts, which practise sword, grappling, other weapons, strategy, etc. Araki ryu would be one example of these. Takeuchi-ryu is an example of a classical school that still exists that trains jujutsu. Interestingly enough...I don't believe you will find any BJJ style 'ground grappling' in it. I wouldn't be surprised if much the same could be said about Kito ryu and the other traditional jujutsu styles that judo comes from. But I could be proven wrong. Just to be clear, something like kosen judo would NOT qualify as a 'classical' style of jujutsu.

Best,
Ron

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

kosen is just a term that refers to a style of Judo that was practiced at many Universities. it is actually based on Fusen-Ryu. Fusen-Ryu was developed in the 1800's from many different koryu jujitsu styles.

As far as classic jujitsu still being a viable option to train in, yes there are a few schools that can trace their lineage but the vast majority of jujitsu schools are really just cheap imitations. And the ones that do exist probably do not practice the same as they did in the past. The most effective styles and techniques tested by intense competition were pretty much merged into Judo, this included newaza, tachiwaza and many of the self defense and joint manipulations that are also found in Aikido.