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Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

The Tier list and rules that will be used on Serebii (to be used on Wi-Fi as well). Based off Smogon's tier list.

General Rules
Ubers are banned from OU downwards.
Dream World Pokemon currently unavailable are banned.
All moves that increase Evasion only (e.g. Minimize) are banned.
All instant OHKO moves (e.g. Horn Drill) are banned.
You may not use a Pokémon team carrying both Pokémon with the ability Swift Swim and the ability Drizzle.

I posted my opinions on Wob in the other thread. I guess I can give my two cents on the other 5.

Deoxys (both Normal and A) - I'm going to count this as one because they are very similar. Both have extremely high offensive stats and speed. They also have a tremendous movepool and would most likely centralize the metagame around priority attacks which would be required to take them down without taking significant damage. Based off of experience in 4th gen Ubers it would also make a very powerful lead which can kill just about any other lead while also getting down Rocks. Due to how effective it would be as a lead and sweeper (assuming priority attacks are absent) I say these forms are likely Uber.

Deoxys-D - I don't think this is as broken as the other forms. Its pretty similar to Cresselia only with a better movepool, which is something Cresselia would kill for. It could be an useful support pokemon and might benefit stall, and quite frankly stall needs all the help it can get this gen. While it does have the same support movepool which got its Speed counterpart banned in the previous gen it lacks the Speed to prevent itself from being Taunted so I think this will be manageable in OU.

Deoxys-S - This was easily the most broken pokemon that was ever allowed in 4th gen OU. In 5th gen there are many changes which could help balance it out though. The fact you can see it before battle and choose a lead accordingly can prevent it from being as broken as it previously was. The absence of Rotom-A to keep its hazards around might also hinder it, though there are many more Ghosts this time around so its an even trade off in that regard. The only thing which worries me at this point is if it will be too powerful as a late game cleaner or revenge killer. Its worth testing in OU, though I'm still on the fence and think it is probably Uber.

Mew - There is simply too much that Mew can do. Baton Passing is the only role it ever uses in Ubers, though in OU it would probably be much harder to predict since it wouldn't be outclassed by everything else in the tier in one way or another. It can run just about any kind of offensive set, and it can support its team in a number of ways. I think its unpredictablility, as well as the stats to do just about anything with its bottomless movepool, is enough for it to be Uber, though if enough people think it should be tested in OU I wouldn't be opposed.

Deoxys-S: I'm afraid that D-S will just play the same role that it did back when it was previosly allowed in OU. Even without a solid lead metagame, D-S will still be the fastest Taunter, Spiker, Dual Screener, and attacker in OU...worse, the entire game. This means that he will still likely be broken under the support category. I say keep him Uber.

Deoxys-D: D-D is much less broken. Actually, I think that its bulk and access to Recover could prove useful in such a powerful metagame and still not be broken. Psychic is still a pretty bad defensive type, and without the right moves D-D makes perfect set-up fodder for Shanderaa. I say he's good for OU.

Other Deoxys: Deoxys's other two forms are too powerful and broken for OU. Yes, they are killed by priority with their frail defenses, but they also have very fast and powerful priority of their own. Uber.

Wobbufett: I think this guy is worth trying in OU again. Encore is a lot weaker now, and that was one thing that really helped Wobbufett to shine. I say he's worth testing in OU for now.

Mew: There's just too much versatility with Mew. It can use Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to sweep, it makes an amazing Baton Passer, it has an amazing movepool...is there anything that Mew can't do? On the other hand, Psychic isn't the best of types, and it could be balanced out by all of the new powerful attackers and NFE stallers with their Pre-Evo Stones. I guess testing is worth it, but I'm leaning towards Uber.

They are active now. The games have been imported to America already and Wifi battles have been posted on Youtube. No reason to wait for Smogon to start.

Deoxys-Normal - 150/150/150 stats are incredibly high, but might be deceiving. Its defenses are obviously terrible so if it can't OHKO the opponent it dies. It must run a speed boosting nature to outrun anything more than the base 130s, and even with Hasty its going to be beaten by Scarf Garchomp, Flygon and Jirachi. Its defenses are retarded enough that it will not escape a 2HKO from even Blissey. Its probably Uber, but maybe not as bad as some people say..

- It must run a Hasty or Naive nature to outrun Scarf Rotom and Jolly Gyarados. If it does this it will have less attack than Metagross, and much worse STAB.
- It can not 2HKO Prevo Stone Porygon 2 with Superpower. Porygon 2 can be as low as 75&#37; and still avoid being 2HKOed.
- It can not 2HKO Deoxys Defense with Shadow Ball if it is Specially Defensive. If it runs Shadow Ball it will likely not run STAB, cutting the number of things it can OHKO in half.
- Calm Prevo Stone Dusclops needs only 60 Special Defense EVs to guarantee survival against 2 Shadow Balls. It easily strikes back with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. I assume Dusclops will be primarily Specially Defensive anyway, so it can shrug off hits from Specs Latios.
- It can not 2HKO Calm Cresselia even if it runs no Special Defense EVs.
- Lucario and Scizor both survive some hits decently and can KO back.
- Metagross can hammer it with Bullet Punch and take any of its moves.
- Rotom can easily survive two of its hits with only about 60 Special Defense EVs. Only Psychic harms him.
- Spiritomb beats it, but Spiritomb sucks.
- Bronzong destroys it.
- Defensive Jirachi laughs at all of his moves.
- If Genosekuto or Melotta allowed into OU they can take any hit decently. Without priority they could drop to a second hit though.
- Shuckle lol.
- Nattorei (Grass / Steel Landmine thing) beats it assuming it doesn't have HP Fire. HP Fire has terrible coverage and like Deoxys S when it was OU, would probably never use it.
- Zuruzukin (Dark / Fighting) takes the hits ok, only disliking Superpower which it can survive two of if it runs HP EVs and intimidate (unless Deoxys runs a LOT of Attack EVs).
- Iwaparesu (Bug/Rock hermit crab) takes almost nothing from his attacks in a sandstorm assuming some defensive EVs.
- Prevo Stone Munchlax can just barely avoid a 2HKO from Superpower.
- Forretress is 3HKOed by any non-HP Fire hit.
- Dragonite can take SOME abuse from Superpower or Shadow Ball and clip it with Extremespeed.
- It will never switch in safely, but Dugtrio permanently removes it with Sucker Punch.
-Flygon, Jirachi, Latias, Latios, Garchomp and Shaymin all beat it while holding a Scarf, and can switch in moderately safely on some on its moves.

Its probably broken. I'm just supportive because its my favorite legend. ^_^ Uber.

Deoxys-A - It hits so ridiculously hard and so fast that even if you have priority you must predict perfectly. Scizor is easily 2HKOed by LO Thunderbolt forcing you to predict it switching, or take a huge risk by Bullet Punching. Unlike Deoxys regular is will easily 2HKO virtually everything Deoxys N 3HKOs. The defense loss is negligible compared to the added slaughter. I would call this Uber without much worry.

Deoxys-D - Defense similar to Nattorei but with Recovery. Its typing sucks and its defenses aren't all that amazing compared to Porygon 2 and Dusclops. It has an endless movepool but few worthwhile moves. Its worthy of a team slot, but doesn't wall everything and can be easily worn down by boosted hits and Scizor's douchings. I think OU.

Deoxys-S - He was pretty bad in OU last time. Dual Screens alone didn't do it, he was capable of doing anything and due to his speed could pull it off at any time. Cosmic Power / Taunt set could instantly destroy any team that couldn't quickly hit it with boosted Super Effective hits. A mixed revenge killer set could easily find itself sweeping (though Scizor might help regulate that). I'm on the fence here. I'll say Uber mostly because we don't seem to have any better answers this gen compared to last gen, which pretty much just turned out to be use Scizor or Paralyze it. Deoxys S was devastating against all team types. Uber.

Wobbuffet - When Wobbuffet was OU for that short period I stopped playing Pokemon along with several others due to how frustrating Wobbuffet is to play against. Yeah Encore is weaker, but it still guarantees a free setup. Its not like you're going to just sit there for 4+ turns. Wobb also eliminates Scarfers from doing much of anything. He can Encore-Tickle walls until they struggle or are wiped out by TTar Pursuit. Broken or not it changed the meta game in a bad way last time, and I don't see much in its favor this gen. Uber.

Mew - I could write 20 pages of viable sets Mew can run off 4th gen moves alone. Every single one of which capable of causing untold havok. There are very few things that can switch in on Mew and win. Even Tyranitar his #1 counter loses against Nasty Plotted Aura Sphere, or Colbur Baton Pass, or Hypnosis, or Scarfed Transform, or Trick, or U-turn, or Will-O-Wisp, or Dual Screens or...

Are these effective now? or when b/w are relased in the states, also is smogon testing now or are they waiting for the release?

I don't see any reason why these shouldn't be effective now considering Smogon doesn't have an official tier list to follow yet. Smogon isn't testing yet as they are waiting for PL to add 5th gen so that testing can happen in the first place. Right now these tiers really only apply to WiFi'ers since they are the only ones which can play to begin with. These tiers will probably be effective for quite some time considering Smogon still has yet to begin testing, and even when they do it will likely take 6 months or more for things to settle down.

I heard they had a server up for a short period of time though it was removed due to lack of incorporating mechanic changes. I doubt they will have it before PL though since they are backed by Smogon who is likely to figure out all the mechanics before anyone else.

Yes and no. They are testing the new mons and mechanics on a private server. They still have a ton of bugs, but they're working on it. Coyote frequents the smogon "new mechanics" thread like every day, so I'm pretty confident he's gonna have it up and running properly asap.

Yes it will, right now it still lacks an UU ladder (unless its updated since I last checked) and has various small bugs, though in the long run it will replace Shoddy and get 5th gen updates. They stopped updating the first Shoddy for the purpose of creating this to begin with.

As stated in the OP, all unreleased event pokes are banned. They will be unbanned whenever they are released in some kind of event. This includes the Water horse, Meloetta, and possibly Genosekuto if he isn't Uber for other reasons.

Deoxys (all forms) - Normal form however should be noted that it has less Attack than Metagross

Metagross - 135
Deoxys - 150

???

I'm all for the banning of all Deoxys forms except Deoxys-D, since with Prevo Stone it'll probably sit on the same level as Porygon2 or Dusclops (except it can Spike).

Note that this comes from someone who has played one match of 5th gen competitive, but I really don't think Deoxys (except -D) will have changed in brokenness much at all. All 3 offensive Deoxys forms can sweep easily late game and lead fantastically, so they're broken imo.

I think all 6 of the Pokemon should be banned. Allowing them will just create a lot of drama and complaints. Banning them won't hurt anyone as you would just choose different Pokemon. I think it's a lot easier to not allow them and have everyone satisfied.

I'm all for fairness, and if people have mixed opinions on certain Pokemon, I think it's safe to ban them right off the bat.

I remember when Smogon unbanned Deoxys-s for a bit. Although it didn't quite revolutionize the way people built teams as Garchomp (who should be on this Ubers list, shouldn't it?), a LOT of people used it, and quite successfully I might add. I remember it to be one of the most annoying leads and pokemon to deal with in general, and while being annoying probably doesn't grant something uber status, it sparked a number of special defense oriented pokemon such as Drapion (or even Bulky Ttar) to become semi-staples.
In theory, I think OU in general may be able to handle Deoxys-S, however referencing an old Smogon defenition of uber status: "a pokemon that very heavily influences the OU metagame and the creation process of every team" or blah, something like that.
I guess what I'm saying is that if it becomes TOO MUCH of a hassle to deal with that people will have to come up with two or three pokemon combinations to effectively get rid of it, it may have to be Uber.
Of course, this means that it's up to the testers to verify whether or not this is true.

With all the hard-hitting pokemon, I guess Deoxys-D would be reasonable for OU, but again, I'm leaving this up to testers as I've had no experience with it.

Deoxys and Deoxys-A though are a different story. Not even the pseudo-legendaries of OU have the brutal combination of attacking and speed stats, with excellent moves to boot. I may be missing something right now, but at the top of my head I can't think of any way these two will not be able to absolutely dominate OU.

Wobb is another one that was tested in the past and remained in Uber, and even with this pretty much new metagame, no one can deny the sheer usefulness/destructiveness of Shadow Tag, which, with correct prediction, essentially nets a free kill (at least one a game.)

Priority Taunt/Encore and a non-support phazing move (Dragon Tail) are enough to guarantee Deoxys-S a spot in OU. Especially with your opponent's team being visible before the start of the battle, Deoxys-S isn't nearly as effective doing the things that made him Uber previous generation. Obviously OU.

Deoxys-S and Deoxys-N suffer from pretty severe 4 moveslot syndrome. Without HP Fire they are taken out by Steels. Without Superpower by Tyranitar and Normals. Without Thunderbolt by bulky Waters. Without Ice Beam by Dragons. They also enjoy having Extreme Speed and a reliable STAB. And even then they are reliable countered by Spiritomb and Dusclops. Under the Rain or if you mispredict the switch they are also hard countered by Metagross, Jirachi and various other Steels. Then there is also the problem they can't switch into any attack at all. Probably OU.

Deoxys-D already wasn't the defensive titan anymore last gen. It was mainly banned for as a bulky mid-game set-upper. It's defenses are even less precious than previous gen and its Speed isn't too good either this gen. Probably OU.

Mew has the same problem as Deoxys-S: priority Taunt/Encore and a phazing move that can't be Taunted. For Mew these problems are even greater. It could still try a sweeping set on its own with its various +2 set-up moves, but its STAB isn't that great and its offensive stats are pretty poor unboosted. Probably OU.

I would also like to bring up Manaphy. Tail Glow now boosts Sp. Attack by 3 levels, instead of 2. There is also Politoed to provide eternal rain. A bulky Tail Glow set could wreak havoc.

Literally the only one who gets that ability and doesn't totally suck is Borutorosu (Electric / Flying Genie). He looks like a solid OU though. Nasty Plot / Thunderbolt / Taunt / filler. Sucks when you Taunt a LO sweeper Deoxys.

and a non-support phazing move (Dragon Tail) are enough to guarantee Deoxys-S a spot in OU.

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/dragontail.shtml
Nidoqueen, Prevo Stone Lickitung, Stall Gyarados and Milotic are probably the only good users of this move. I would cross Nidoqueen and Milotic off the list since neither were very good last gen for most teams barring some rare examples.

Especially with your opponent's team being visible before the start of the battle,

Ah that doesn't help much. If your opponent has a Metagross / Heatran / Gyarados / Deoxys S / Garchomp / Latios can you immediately say for sure Deoxys is a lead? Also with the above example how do you know they're not bluffing, and lead with offensive Deoxys? What do you do when your genie thing gets 2HKOed by LO Ice Beam? Yes its true you may be less likely to lead with Heatran if you think they run Dual Screens but its not like seeing Deoxys immediately means hes going to lead.

Deoxys-S isn't nearly as effective doing the things that made him Uber previous generation. Obviously OU.

I wouldn't say obviously OU but I will admit stall teams have a much easier time with him now.

Deoxys-S and Deoxys-N suffer from pretty severe 4 moveslot syndrome.

Do you mean Deoxys A?

Without HP Fire they are taken out by Steels. Without Superpower by Tyranitar and Normals. Without Thunderbolt by bulky Waters. Without Ice Beam by Dragons. They also enjoy having Extreme Speed and a reliable STAB.

I agree, though its not as easy as you make it sound (unless you do mean Deoxys S, hes not too hard to wall).

And even then they are reliable countered by Spiritomb and Dusclops.

Spiritomb sucks lol. But I do agree.

Under the Rain or if you mispredict the switch they are also hard countered by Metagross, Jirachi and various other Steels.

Only if they run Special Defense EVs (Jirachi doesn't need to).

Then there is also the problem they can't switch into any attack at all. Probably OU.

Kind of goes both ways here.

I'm biased to support Deoxys N because I like it.. But there are some strong arguments to support it in OU.

Deoxys-D already wasn't the defensive titan anymore last gen. It was mainly banned for as a bulky mid-game set-upper. It's defenses are even less precious than previous gen and its Speed isn't too good either this gen. Probably OU.

I agree, except for the reason it was banned. I thought it was due to Cresselia level defenses + a move pool. Smogon never tested it did they?

Mew has the same problem as Deoxys-S: priority Taunt/Encore and a phazing move that can't be Taunted.

For the same reasons above I think this only helps stall. But its a fair point.

For Mew these problems are even greater. It could still try a sweeping set on its own with its various +2 set-up moves, but its STAB isn't that great and its offensive stats are pretty poor unboosted. Probably OU.

Who says Mew can only run two sets? Whats wrong with an offensively minder Baton passer? Skarmory and Swampert won't like taking a +2 Thunderbolt or Psychic. Tyranitar can't bring it down if it runs Colbur Berry. Don't forget Transform Mew who can run a ton of status moves. But it could be OU, who knows? Maybe we need a vote..

I would also like to bring up Manaphy. Tail Glow now boosts Sp. Attack by 3 levels, instead of 2. There is also Politoed to provide eternal rain. A bulky Tail Glow set could wreak havoc.

I don't think walling Manaphy was ever part of beating him. I'm just going to hope he doesn't run over 200 HP EVs and OHKO with Specs Latios or something. Tons of things are just too strong and fast for him to sweep.. Err.. I assume.

I would hazard to say Manaphy is Ubers (especially if the Tail Glow rumour is true. Mew is likely somewhere in-between; let's say Suspect for now.

Deoxys-S competes with other leads, so likely OU. Deoxys-A is Uber I'd say, but the others OU.

Garchomp, Latias, Latios and Sazando are all OU for now, but subject to change (especially based on soul dew). They may go to Ubers, as might some of the Genies (especially Randorosu with Encourage). Doubtful for the other trio of this generation, and probably even Meloia or Genosect to reach Ubers. Genosect might be Suspect though.