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Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

He's thrown a curve about 14% of the time as opposed to nearly 20-26% since being called up. A lot more fastballs (I'd guess some cutters were mixed in there) and it seems to have helped lower the walks.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

d rob is obviously a far superior pitcher to soriano. however, it doesn't really follow from this that he has to be the closer. especially until our pen is fortified by say phil and who knows who else, and with phelps now in the rotation, our middle pen is pretty shaky. it doesn't really make sense to let games slip away in the 6th or 7th or 8th, which renders the closer role in the 9th moot. hence like ajra and pins i favor a game-by-game approach with no fixed closer, with d rob perhaps providing more value in the fireman role. again, he'd obviously be a better closer than soriano, it's just a Q where he'd provide greater value, IE contribute to more Ws.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

Originally Posted by JSG

d rob is obviously a far superior pitcher to soriano. however, it doesn't really follow from this that he has to be the closer. especially until our pen is fortified by say phil and who knows who else, and with phelps now in the rotation, our middle pen is pretty shaky. it doesn't really make sense to let games slip away in the 6th or 7th or 8th, which renders the closer role in the 9th moot. hence like ajra and pins i favor a game-by-game approach with no fixed closer, with d rob perhaps providing more value in the fireman role. again, he'd obviously be a better closer than soriano, it's just a Q where he'd provide greater value, IE contribute to more Ws.

This is the slippery slope of the way the closer is used in today's game. I don't disagree with you, but would you have favored Mo being used in this role for the last 15 years?

"Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

This is the slippery slope of the way the closer is used in today's game. I don't disagree with you, but would you have favored Mo being used in this role for the last 15 years?

if we are going with ideal strategy then you gotta keep in mind the key is higher expected leverage (because you don't know 9th inning leverage). if it is a 1 run game with bad hitters coming up in the 8th and heart of the lineup in the 9th, then mo is going to pitch the 9th. otherwise he might be more useful keeping guys already on base from scoring.

also, relievers wear and tear is dependent on how often they are used. if you use mo 2 or even 3 innings at a time but limit the number of his appearances, more innings can be squeezed out of him without much more increased wear and tear. that might be a more efficient model of usage for these relievers.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

The only argument for closers that even passes the plausibility test is that routine improves a pitchers performance. It would have to be an effect great enough to outweigh the leverage issue.

The saves rule is indefensible and so is managing pitchers according to it. David Robertson wasn't even the fireman, he was the setup man. A true fireman would be called strictly based on leverage and not inning coming in with runners on base much of the time. His job would be harder, his numbers wouldn't be as sterling but he would provide more value to the team.

It just isn't going to happen though. The two people who benefit from the closer role are the closer and the manager.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

This is the slippery slope of the way the closer is used in today's game. I don't disagree with you, but would you have favored Mo being used in this role for the last 15 years?

No, but that's because Mariano isn't the same type of pitcher as D-rob. Runner on 3rd, no outs, tie game, I'd rather have 2011-Present in there than Drob. Of course, game 7 of the WS, 11th inning, 1 run lead, I want Mo in there.

Drob's unique "K or BB" results make him ideal for fireman, not just how good he is in raw numbers. He can basically avoid contact if he wants to (though it might end up in a BB). Only half the batters he faced put the ball in play. 75% of Mo's batters faced put the ball into play.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

The only argument for closers that even passes the plausibility test is that routine improves a pitchers performance. It would have to be an effect great enough to outweigh the leverage issue.

The saves rule is indefensible and so is managing pitchers according to it. David Robertson wasn't even the fireman, he was the setup man. A true fireman would be called strictly based on leverage and not inning coming in with runners on base much of the time. His job would be harder, his numbers wouldn't be as sterling but he would provide more value to the team.

It just isn't going to happen though. The two people who benefit from the closer role are the closer and the manager.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

Originally Posted by ThePinStripes

No, but that's because Mariano isn't the same type of pitcher as D-rob. Runner on 3rd, no outs, tie game, I'd rather have 2011-Present in there than Drob. Of course, game 7 of the WS, 11th inning, 1 run lead, I want Mo in there.

Drob's unique "K or BB" results make him ideal for fireman, not just how good he is in raw numbers. He can basically avoid contact if he wants to (though it might end up in a BB). Only half the batters he faced put the ball in play. 75% of Mo's batters faced put the ball into play.

Agreed -- but you could just as easily argue that pre-D-Rob, Mo might have been better used as a fireman in particularly high leverage situations, or that D-Rob might be more suitable than Mo in some 9th inning situations. The logical extension of not making D-Rob the closer is to rethink the way you use the bullpen and employ it more situationally, rather than having 7th, 8th and 9th inning guys.

"Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

This is the slippery slope of the way the closer is used in today's game. I don't disagree with you, but would you have favored Mo being used in this role for the last 15 years?

hmmmmmmmm, tough Q. as pins notes, one aspect is Mo and D Rob are very different pitchers -- D Rob with his K skills is probably more uniquely suited to stepping into a sheee-it show and coming out clean. Mo was also so brilliant in that role, and for so long, i'm tempted to say he's the exception to the rule, rather than proving the rule. And even with Mo, you'd see him in the 8th in critical situations. So it's maybe somewhat of a punt answer, but my feeling is you organize the pen based on the pitchers you have, rather than start with innings-slot name tags and then figure out who to annoint in reverse order. as K-W notes, there is likely some benefit in routine and defined roles, but i'd rather set it up in terms of leverage situations, figuring out who your best and most effective pitchers are, and go from there.

there's also probably a different analysis regular season vs postseason. I keep thinking of one of the ALCS games in Anaheim 09 where D Rob came in early, maybe the 4th inning, first and third no outs, to keep the game from spiralling away. Last few years tho, Girardi has shown very little urgency in the postseason for the most part, keeping starters in past their expiration (EG, AJ and phil vs texas), or keeping the "innings slot mentality" alive and going to the C team in game critical situations, "saving" your good pitchers for set ups and closing situations that never happened. playoffs for me, leverage situations has to be the primary factor, regular season maybe more of a mix between leverage and defined roles. but even there, there's gotta be some flex to wing it based on game feel to mix and match.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

Listening to Suzyn's postgame , so bittersweet. He was reeeealy nervous out there tonight; his first 'official' save.
Expected the strikeout to end the game. Wish I had been sitting next to a betting person when the bases got loaded...

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

I was trying to think of another high pressured situation hes been in and one that comes to mind is that playoff game in 09 against the Twins when he came in with 0 outs and the bases loaded in the 7th or 8th while we were clinging onto a 1 or 2 run lead and he got us through it.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

Robertson is awesome and you could see he felt pretty good about it last night. I agree with an above poster, however. In the future, Robinson needs to be able to have quicker innings. I know he's had some issues of getting into trouble and always getting out of it, but when you need him 2-3 days in a row, getting quicker outs helps.

Re: 2012 David Robertson Performance Thread

He did confirm his nervousness after the game. Joe G was also saying that it was the first game with a save situation that he remembered to not automatically write Mo's name in. Seemed by postgame comments per Suzyn's Postgame Report that it was a very emotionally charged 9th inning - and the end result was perfect (DRob getting the K).