‘Game Of Thrones’ Discussion: ‘Breaker Of Chains’

(Note: to help clear up the discussion thread congestion, we’re publishing two Game of Thrones recaps this season, one for book readers and one for non-book readers. Doing it this way means those who have read A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows don’t have to begin every conversation with “SPOILER,” or those who haven’t won’t need to worry about learning something they shouldn’t.)

In a busy episode of Game of Thrones, full of Stannis yelling and Davos reading and Jon Snow scheming and Gilly hiding and the Hound and Arya playing daddy/daughter, there are three scenes I keep coming back to, all involving death. In the first, Littlefinger makes his grand season debut aboard a misty boat, looking less like Mayor Carcetti and more flamboyant pirate who speaks in a snake-like hiss. He reveals to Sansa that he was the mastermind behind Joffrey’s death, though not before killing Ser Dontos. Why? “Money buys a man silence for a time. A bolt in the heart buys it forever.”

Later on, the action heads back to King’s Landing, where Tywin is taking Tommen on a tour of the sept and, oh look, there’s Joffrey’s corpse. The world’s most intense grandfather is speaking to the new king, but with the way the scene is filmed, with the camera lingering on Cersei, it’s clear he’s ACTUALLY talking to his daughter, taunting her with all of Joffrey’s plentiful f*ck-ups. After playing “Let’s Make a King,” Tywin explains the difference between a good ruler and a great one: “A wise man knows what he knows and what he doesn’t. You’re young. A wise, young man listens to his council. He heeds their advice until he comes of age. And the wisest kings continue to listen to them long after.”

Finally, at the end of the episode, because it’s apparently in the Game of Thrones bylaws that she shows up last, Daenerys arrives outside Meereen. Thing is, she wants to be inside Meereen, but those mean old slavers won’t let her in. So she does what she does best, beside wear blue dresses: convince the slaves to revolt against their masters, using the time-honored tradition of symbolically hurling chains at rocks. Her plan works, though if I were Dany, I’d just say, “Join me, you can ride a DRAGON for free.”

Littlefinger, Tywin, and Daenerys accomplished a lot in “Breaker of Chains” by using three different tried and true methods of obtaining power. One got all sneaky and, to coin a phrase, poisoned the petulant puke; another used his influence on his family to make sure the new king is his puppet; and the last threatened physical force but instead played the “you deserve better” card, and now her army is that much stronger for it. They’re all power plays, with a Joffrey’s googly-eye toward the long-term (Lord Baelish didn’t save Sansa because he’s a good guy; he’s doing it because he’s a master manipulator). Tywin preaches wisdom as the breakfast of attributes a king must possess. That’s true, but paying attention to what’s coming, and not just what’s already here, also ensures you won’t end up a concrete slab at the age of 19. You need to be three moves ahead to win the Game of Thrones.

-TWIST: Sansa grows up to be Melisandre.

-Margaery is the Spinal Tap drummer/Boyd’s bartenders of queens.

-Jack Gleeson’s finest performance yet.

-OK, fine, one last time:

-Arya and the Hound at dinner: more or less awkward than Sally and Don in the car?

-Never trust a man who slurps his stew.

-I like to think the Hound hit the nice father on the head with an acoustic guitar.

-“Dead men don’t need silver.” But they should listen to “Silver” before they die.

-Giiilllllyyyyyy…

-It’s actually impressive that Stannis HASN’T killed Davos yet.

-“Breaker of Chains” was a good episode for close-ups of butts.

-Oberyn Martell must constantly reek of sex sweat with a hint of potpourri.

-This isn’t a spoiler, but in the books, Daenerys’ champion isn’t Daario, but an amazing character named Strong Belwas. Just how amazing is he? Here’s how:

When Daenerys besieges Meereen, Oznak zo Pahl rides out of the city on a white charger with a fourteen foot lance, challenging the besiegers to send forth a champion. Daenerys decides that Belwas is perfect since she can easily spare him, his death as an ex-slave would not give Oznak prestige, and a defeat to an ex-slave would be an insult. Belwas wounds Oznak’s horse in the duel, leading to a sword fight. Belwas allows himself to be wounded in the stomach before he kills Oznak, severs his head, and holds it up high for those in Meereen to see. The defenders of the city fire arrows, but Belwas is too far away. He squats to defecate towards the city, wipes himself on Oznak’s cloak, loots the corpse and kills the horse. (Via)

The lack of Strong Belwas is the worst thing about the TV show.

-I could listen to Dany give grand proclamations all day.

Five Other Items for Tyrion Podrick Hid From the Guards

1. Piece of pie that Tyrion never got around to eating at the wedding.

I can’t believe that I overlooked Littlefinger’s potential involvement in Joffrey’s assassination. I immediately assumed that Olenna Tyrell, Tywin (and possibly Varys) were involved. But the Lannisters were involved in the grisly murder of his beloved Catelyn – so of course he’d want revenge. I would assume that he has Tywin, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey in his sights as well.

By the way, what was killing Gendry supposed to have achieved for Stannis & Melisandre? A few drops of his blood already killed Joffrey and Robb (and Balon will get his soon enough, I imagine), so what else is there? Would the Iron Throne have just instantly vanished from King’s Landing and appeared under Stannis’s ass at Dragonstone? Would everybody in the seven kingdoms just suddenly decide to rebel against the crown until Stannis was crowned? Would Dany’s dragons abandon her and flock to Stannis?

I also found it odd that she was surprised by Thoros’s thing, although I wrote that off as being something similar to what happened with the warlocks of Qarth, that the Lord of Light’s magic was just stronger now that the dragons were back. I wish we’d gotten more than just that single bit of evidence that she doesn’t know everything. Anyway, I like your perspective on this. Maybe I’ll try it on for myself and see how it feels.

This is why I actually like this Stannis and Melisandre plot. It’s a mix of obviously legit magic (smoke baby) but still a load of cold reading and wafty bollocks (“look into this flame and see the thing I’m suggesting you see!”). So no, I don’t think they have a clue what outright killing Gendry would do, I think overall Melisandre has far far less of a clue about what she’s doing and what her god actually wants than she implys. Which is why she was so confused and pissed off last season with the fact that Thoros of Mir (sp? You know who I mean) was able to raise the dead with just prayer.

Well that’s been their argument ever since Davos freed Gendry; I just wish they would get into some specifics. They know the drops of blood were supposed to kill the people he named, so did they have any particular expectations for what torching Gendry would do, or just a vague “win the war” thing?

(Also I didn’t mean to say that I actually believe the leeches did anything. It’s possible, since the Red God does seem to be at least somewhat legit, but I don’t think he was actually responsible for either of those deaths.)

I guess that’s going to be Stannis’ argument now, if that little amount had killed two of his three rivals so far then by letting Gendry go Davos has completely pissed away the chance of an easy victory.
But however, seeing as both rivals so far have been killed in conspiracy a likely in place before the blood magic was even cast, there’s still the chance it’s just a fluke, it’s not like Robb and Joffrey both died in convoluted Final Destination accidents.

Are we sure Littlefinger is responsible for the assassination, and it wasn’t just a case of right-place-right-time for Dontos? I mean, he could’ve been ordered to just stand by and wait for an opportune moment to spirit her away, and this was probably a pretty good option. I don’t think it was necessary or the best possible means of sneaking Sansa out of the city; and if it wasn’t necessary, then I really don’t see any other reason for Littlefinger to have wanted to kill Joffrey. Maybe for the sake of framing Tyrion, as payback for that cool trick he played in season 2 with the three different stories; but that also seems kind of like a stretch.

I don’t think we’ve got the full picture yet, regarding the assassination.

Littlefinger was definitely in on it, just the fact that he knew about Joffrey’s murder already when he was sitting out in the middle of the fog gives that away. I don’t think he can have done it alone though, he’s a man who doesn’t like to get his hands dirty but he doesn’t quite have the power to convince other people to commit regicide for him, yet.
The cohorts would be Tywin or Tyrell although of thus week I’m thinking although Tywin has every reason to kill and replace Joffrey the framing of Tyrion is either an indication he’s not involved, or that framing Tyrion was never part of the plan (no one knew Joffrey’s was going to make him cup barer).

As for you continued pie denial, it’s not that risky an option, if it was a fast acting poison and convention meant Joffrey was going to eat it first there’s no reason the pie would kill anyone else. The pie did it! Stop being blind to the truth sheeple!

I missed it last week, aside from here in the comments, and I didn’t get around to watching a re-airing after I’d read about that. Of course I saw it this week, but I wasn’t sure that Littlefinger’s simply having bought the necklace meant that it was full of poison. It could’ve just been a token for Dontos to earn Sansa’s trust.

OHH, framing Tyrion because his execution would make Sansa eligible for re-marriage! So Joffrey would be nothing more than a game piece for Baelish to knock over. That makes more sense. But it can’t have been only Baelish & Dontos enacting the plot. Dontos never got anywhere near Joffrey’s glass, and while the pie may have been what killed him, that seems significantly less likely because of how much less precise it would’ve been. Granted, Baelish probably wouldn’t have had much compunction about just killing everyone at that reception, but since that didn’t happen, I don’t think it was the pie. SO, while I guess Baelish probably was involved, there had to be someone else, too. And he’s conspired in the past with so many of the people up there…

My main take-away from this episode is Dolorous Ed is alive and well and that I am very happy about this, Ser Dontos on the other hand is dead, and…meh. This is where comical anecdotes about your dead mum shitting herself will get you, not much more screen time, but he made his way much deeper into my heart. Go Ed!

Well he’s also going to set-up a context for Oberyn to get his revenge on Ser Gregor. It does still seem like kind of a small enticement, though. But then, I guess a seat on the small council may be more valuable than it seems. Stannis also offered one to Renly at their little summit in the Stormlands.

Also also this week: I’m going to assume Tywin has a better plan than it seems with regards to getting the Martels on board. Because at the moment all he’s offered is a seat on the council in exchange for siding with him against Dany…who the Martels are technically related to, and is the aunt of the murdered children Oberyn is trying to avenge, and is a victim of the rebellion which the Martels also were and is thus highly unlikely to ever attack Dorne.

(I posted this earlier, but it looks like it got deleted, so apologies if it suddenly appears twice.)

Help me out here. When Stannis informs Davos of Joffrey “the Usurper’s” demise, did he say, (paraphrased), “You know, the one you let get away?” Is he referring to the naval attack on King’s Landing where Davos lost his son?

Draft order chosen randomly, snake draft, all that good stuff. Then we can award points on various things like if your player has killed someone that episode, if your player had sex (incestuous or otherwise), if your player has a successful plot/scheme, etc. and then you get deducted points if one of your players gets killed, imprisoned, loses an appendage, etc..

I wonder which players would go as the top three draft picks? …Tywin, Dany, and The Hound?

***Book Nerds Not Allowed – go back to your own boring comment forum***

Can somebody help me out here? In season 1 didn’t Cersei have another, older blonde son that she also slept with, who was dumb as a doornail? Or was that just a servant? He went out on that hunt where Robert Baratheon gets killed.

Lancel. He’s the one that gets Robert really drunk on the hunt, presumably under the instruction of Cersie… forgive me if this is a spoiler of some kind for non-book readers. I’m reading the books as I watch the show, which is really stupid b/c I can’t keep the two straight anymore.

@Miguel Sanchez I realize there is a separate post, but the fact that there isn’t even a word about the scene (or separate post) here isn’t really fitting in a recap/discussion. One line, even, saying “there’s a separate post discussing THAT scene here” with the link would help.

Thank you. It really is unbelievable that in 2014 we still find it s hard to be clear cut in showing rape vs consensual sex. The director is on record in saying it’s ‘not rape’, in which, dude, when you are having sex with a woman and she says no and is crying?… what kind of private life do YOU have?

That was the rapiest rape to have ever been a rape. The fact that it is apparently more consensual in the books doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t portrayed that way in the show. I am very frustrated to see the actor who plays Jamie (Nicolai something-something) and the director of the episode try and defend this as anything but clear cut rape.

Question i’m not sure us non-book readers can answer: have people also always assumed that, just like Goffrey, Tommen was born from both Jamie and Cersei, which is why Stannis still feels like he has the rightful claim to the throne? is the open-secret that Cersei and Robert had zero legitimate echildren?

The clincher of this is in season one. When ned looks through the baratheon family history all of the children have dark hair no matter the color of the hair of who they married. This was the secret that killed jon arryn and why he said “the seed is strong” before he died.

Because of the revelation that Robert’s heir Joffrey (including the other children) is not actually Robert’s son, but a bastard born out of incest between Cersei and Jaime, Stannis has claimed the Iron Throne and proclaimed himself the rightful King. As Robert had no trueborn children, only bastards, Stannis is indeed his lawful heir.

Too bad he’s such a boring dick and nobody wants to follow him. And apparently he’s a cheap ass too! Not wanting to buy an army.

@Wizardeyes: I didn’t read the books, so I’m guessing at alot at the correct spelling of the character names. Go ahead and correct away. Next time I refer to the character – as part of some crazy theory – at least I’ll have the name right.

He did a good job of getting Gilly away from rapetown but he didnt have to be such an awkward pile of shit whilst he went about it. They also could have made her peril a little more tangible with some minor edits.

I agree. If they are going to delay her arrival in Westeros, then scale back her story so we only see her when we need to see her…maybe every third episode or something. Or maybe give her something to do besides boss people around and not ever have anything truly on the line. I’m tired of the same ol’ same ol’. There are about a billion other story lines that are more interesting.

I said the same exact thing yesterday @The AggroCraig. It’s boring as all hell. It’s kind of hard to buy into the scenes that are supposed to frame her as a badass if there is nothing from which she has to struggle to be that badass. The days of being raped by Khal Drogo are long gone. She needs someone to knock her down a peg. Someone to kill one of her closest confidants (not Ser Friendzone). Something.

It’s been one long rut from the start. Maybe when things come together some day I’ll be thankful that they’ve spent so much time on her story. But for three-plus seasons now, it’s all very disconnected and I just wish they’d get back to Westeros 90% of the time.

this whole no dragons , imma take this city by hurling broken neck collars thing is getting way old, not nearly as inspiring the fourth time around, simply lazy storytelling and cheap production, as if they thought we wouldn’t notice

There’s no way to answer that without spoiling something for someone. All I’m saying is Yara’s story on TV is different from the books, (and I think better), and I’m very interested in how it will work out.

Except for letting her brother finger-bang her back in Season 2 as a “welcome home” joke, because she pretty much did that in the book too.

@BurnsyFan66 Guess what buddy? That whole “Yara Goes To Rescue Theon” story line doesn’t even happen in the books, so I’m as clueless as anyone else about how they’re going to work it. Nice chatting with you though.

My guess is there will be a collision at Moat Callin. The Ironborn are there now and Bolton just sent Ramsay and Theon there to get rid of them. It would make sense for Yara to head there on her way to The Dreadfort.

Good point. I had completely forgotten about his sister Yara (?). Theon betrayed Robb, raided Winterfell, killed Rodrick (sp?), and those two farm boys. He then spent months being continually tortured both psychologically and physically – and was castrated. Do you think he ‘got off easy’? Or does his punishment fit his crimes?

Daenerys just seems destined for greatness.her actions seem to be pure I have to say Emilia Clark is not only gourgeous but extremely talented.the way she commands with such presense.it’s a real treat to watch

I feel Alpha House and Betas to be so far superior to Veep and Silicon Valley, so much so that i protest in not watching either of the latter. Sunday nights are jam fucking packed man, now with Orphan Black on Saturdays, if we can only get Enlisted running again on Fridays (not kidding), i will officially be pleased as punch

yeah that doesn’t make any sense, does it? sorry, after GoT, Mad Men, Turn, Hannibal and Orphan Black all in a row to get them in before the Monday spoiler rush, everything is a little jumbled in my head this morning.

@jon_k (commercial? where you watching it bub) , I thought precisely the same thing, I thought it was gonna turn into the ultimate Lannister menage a trois right there and then. Felt a bit cheated that it didn’t go down like that in fact.

I’m going to start a White House petition to cut Sam and Gilly from the show. I get about 53 minutes of potential dragons and king murdering per week for three months out of the year. Spare me the filler.

Speaking of which…remember that scene between Olenna and Tywin last season where they talked about sex? Olenna asked if Tywin had ever had an experience with a man and he got very hostile and defensive? I think Tywin’s got some issues regarding his sexuality. I have a feeling he’s into something seriously kinky – maybe even for Oberyn.

Note to book nerds: if you really want to punk TV fans, mislead them with false spoilers. My book friend had me believing Ser Dontos was going to be a HUGE character this season. Asshole.

Also, this is the TV comment thread – STOP LURKING.

Go back to your boring, humorless, lame book nerd comment board. We’re segregated for a reason and it’s not to avoid spoilers, it’s because nobody likes you guys and how cool you think you are because you have no life and read a fucking book.

TV fans will ALWAYS be better than book fans because we are more fun, more insightful, and way better looking!

…Now be gone before I, Lord Fan of the House Burnsy, have you executed fortnight!

Last season I knew from a spoiler on a forum that Robb was going to be killed, and just from the build up I knew people were going to die at that wedding. Although obviously Robb wasn’t amongst them, because that spoiler had already and he was going to be killed at huge battle later on so…wait why is he being filled with crossbow bolts?

Each time I think Tywin can’t possibly humiliate his children anymore – he tells Tommen that his older brother was basically an as$hole, in front of Cersei. In fact he insults Robert and Joffrey – right in front of her – doesn’t give it a second thought. He also wasted no time taking Tommen under his wing. Joffrey’s body is barely cold. Tywin is despicable but fascinating to watch.

@Verbal Kunt: I think that’s part of what makes him so interesting. He’s utterly ruthless, completely amoral – but at various times – I find myself agreeing with him. I would loved to have heard more of his conversation with Tommen about politics and power. In fact the only Lannisters I had a real problem with were Jamie and Cersei.

I was thinking Sansa’s running off might be something that prevents Tyrion’s execution. She’s the last (presumed) living Stark and Tywin isn’t going to want to make her a free to marry again whist she’s MIA.

I think that was just you, and Littlefinger is definitely going to at least attempt to put his little fingers (among other body parts) on and in Sansa.

What’s his endgame with her? Marry Liza, become Lord of The Vale, kill her off (and Robin), then marry Sansa – thereby becoming Lord of Harrenhall, The Vale and Winterfell? At that point he’d rival the Lannisters and Tyrells in terms of influence.

I’m not surprised Cersei would assume he worst about Tyrion. I am however surprised that Tywin would just go along with the theory. This leads me to believe that Tywin knows who did the deed and is possibly responsible.

I’ve been thinking about all the major suspects…

Margery: As the Tyrell’s pointed out, they gain more if she’d consummated the marriage first. So not them.

Tyrion: Of course not, but he’d be my hero forever if he had done it. Likewise Podrick, Bronn, etc. But these would all implicate Tyrion, which is bad for them all.

Tywin: gains a king who will actually go along with everything he says.

Littlefinger: This helps drive Sansa out of the city and to him, but she’s still married to Tyrion. Of course Tyrion will likely be executed. But over all, a small gain for a major treason.

The Fool: I actually thought he might have done it for himself and for Sansa. But nope.

The Martels: Too obvious and too interested in their own hedonism.

As a side note, I sincerely hope that Oberyn is not the type to forego his vengeance in favor of political position. He doesn’t seem the type, so I think Tywin has misread him, which makes a trial very interesting.

I don’t think there was any “framing” involved, simply opportunity. See, nobody could predict that Joffrey would do his power trip on his uncle at that exact time and make him his cup bearer. The person who poisoned him just needed access to the pie (or the wine, though probably the pie) and to know that Joffrey would eat it.

I don’t think it’s Olenna because she knows it was premature to do it then. Wait until they consummate, then do it.

No, I think since the Fool was standing by and ready to take her out of there for Baelish, that those are your killers. Not sure why Sansa means so much to him; she’s not Catelyn, and rescuing her FOR Catelyn is no longer a thing. So she’s either a bargaining chip or she’s a new obsession.

Even though Tywin shits on him all the time, he knows that Tyrion is too smart to kill Joffrey in that manner. To be honest, Tyrion is also too loyal to his family to do that as well. I’m assuming it’s Olenna and Littlefinger.

I was watching the replay of last week’s episode prior to this one on one of the other HBO channels, and you can clearly see Lady Olenna pluck a gem from Sansa’s necklace when she fusses with Sansa’s hair. Now, how it got from there to the wine is anyone’s guess, but Olenna was in on it all the way.

If you watch this scene again, you can see how he takes a sip of wine from the cup, he’s fine, then he eats the pie, still fine, then drinks some more wine, starts coughing. It’s not unintentional (i mean, we’re not watching it happen live so everything on screen is a clue)… what they’re saying is it was the wine, but more importantly, the second sip. It happens between him handing Margaery the goblet and cutting the pie, she fed him, then gave the goblet back. This cuts Tyrion out of the list of who-dun-its

@expansivemango: Was it the wine? Eventhough there was ALOT of cup/goblet imagery before his poisoning – isn’t it possible it was in the cake? Joffrey was the only one that ate it and Margaery did seem awfully eager to feed it to him.

Regardless that would mean Olenna came up with the plan, got Tywin to sign off on it, enlisted Margaery, Littlefinger and Ser Dontos – and I’m sure Varys knew about it.

They were clearly eager to see Joffrey go. I think the only person that was genuinely sad to see him dead was Cersei.

My theory is that in exchange for their continued financial support to the Lannisters, Olenna said that Joffrey had to go (for the good of the kingdom). Tywin gave the plot his blessing, then Olenna enlisted Littlefinger – who in turn involved Ser Dontos. When I originally came up with this theory last week, I thought that Varys was her co-conspirator. He seemed like a natural ally – but apparently it was Littlefinger. In retrospect it makes perfect sense, because Littlefinger wants Sansa.

Does Littlefinger just want Sansa because she’s ‘the key to the North’, because he genuinely desires her, or is she a Catelyn substitute?

Definitely looked like rape, which made me uncomfortable even as a dude, and I knew the scene was coming as a book reader, Cersei is much more willing than that in the book chapter. Don’t like this change, which kind of ruins the redemption arc Jaime went through for two seasons…

@Verbal Kunt: Goldfingered? I do not feel good about myself for laughing so much at that.

@Rhgy: By the end of the scene – she seemed to be taking his clothes off as well. I thought it was borderline. Regardless, doing it next to your son’s corpse…It was wrong in a number of different ways.

Glad to see I’m not the only demented person out there. I was thinking the same thing. I think Jamie also lost me last night. The character had become very rich and complex, but borderline raping your sister – NEXT TO YOUR SON’S CORPSE. I can’t look past that. Not to mention crippling Bran. Actually being in love in Cersei in the first place seems like a major character flaw.

As much as I want to despise Tywin – he’s endlessly fascinating to me. I could’ve listened to his conversation (indoctrination) of Tommen for a half hour – the same with the conversation with Oberyn.

Although Tyrion, as usual, had my favorite line of the night – saying Joffrey’s death was one of the rare murders in King’s Landing that Cersei wasn’t involved in.

I think Oleanna was the one that actually delivered the poison. After she talks to Sansa and walks across the “stage” area, there is a moment where her arm goes out right in front of Joffrey and I think there is even a little “plunk” sound effect.