And that is the question of the day. I know kids die everyday all over the world and most people don't give it a 2nd thought. Remember the pic of the kid in Africa and the vulture waiting to pick him off? This is in our face today. Saw where there is a church service tonigh there. What could a preacher say? Nothing that would not make me want to punch him in the mouth.

You got to remember one thing,Christians believe that until end time that Satan has charge over the world until God chooses to imprison him in hell.

God has no interest in what Satan does with his time in charge. This is why God wont help the 3000 kids who starve to death every hour of every day,the busload of crashed nuns,the people at the Batman movie,drought stricken areas.....the list is endless for the people God won't help.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 08:25:45 PM by 12 Monkeys »

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

And you are right,we have failed because we blame two "characters" for things that happen.We blame these "characters" because we are selfish and have the need for self preservation,it matters not to us if others die. Blame Satan,it's much easier.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

You got to remember one thing,Christians believe that until end time that Satan has charge over the world until God chooses to imprison him in hell.

God has no interest in what Satan does with his time in charge. This is why God wont help the 3000 kids who starve to death every hour of every day,the busload of crashed nuns,the people at the Batman movie,drought stricken areas.....the list is endless for the people God won't help.

Yet all the time Christians will petition their god to intervene on their behalf to save them from natural disasters or to thwart what they perceive to be Satan's plans. They stand on their god's promise that he will answer their prayers, but then when nothing happens or changes they assume that the answer was "no" and that "father knows best".

You got to remember one thing,Christians believe that until end time that Satan has charge over the world until God chooses to imprison him in hell.

God has no interest in what Satan does with his time in charge. This is why God wont help the 3000 kids who starve to death every hour of every day,the busload of crashed nuns,the people at the Batman movie,drought stricken areas.....the list is endless for the people God won't help.

And yet these same people, when things go badly, invoke the platitude of "God's Plan"....which we, as mere mortals cannot understand. So which is it? Does God sit by and let Satan inspire evil at every turn, or does he have some ineffable plan wherein all sorts of seeming tragedy has a reason?

Oh, but the most powerful, wise, magically endowed dude in the universe can't be expected to actually do anything. Nothing that matters at any rate. I mean seriously, people pray for things like "Please God, let my son make it onto the varsity team". If I were that son, I would personally be offended that my parents did not believe it was possible for me to make the team without the supreme ruler of the cosmos suspending the natural order.

But more with the original subject, where was God when those 20 children were murdered? Well, according to Christians, God was powerless to stop this heinous crime because he is not allowed in schools. This is utterly SICKENING. Nevermind that 7 people were shot to death at a Christian University in April. The suggestion that the magnificent superman in the sky can have his will negated by his unworthy creation is beyond pathetic. What kind of impotent God do they believe in? Oh wait, they believe in the God that had FORTY TWO children murdered by bears for making fun of some loser priest. Give me an effing break.

Honestly, I am so goddamn fed up with religion. A Christian friend invited me to a "discussion" group on Facebook run by Christians to try to engage with non-believers. IT. IS. PATHETIC. One minute they are Bible believing Christians, the next they are giving all of the reason that they don't believe in the more awful stuff in the Bible. Oh, it's just a metaphor, you have to understand the culture at the time, this was just some guys vision, this is just poetry, God only intended that stuff for Jewish people, slavery wasn't really slavery, God was just going along with the existing morality (that is to say, none) present among his chosen people, etc etc etc until you literally just want to throw up. And then the inevitable accusation that the atheist is the one cherry picking! It's important to note also that NO CHRISTIAN EVER brings up any of the aforementioned objections to John 3:16, or the account of Jesus' resurrection, or the possibility of eternal reward or punishment. No man, that shit is TOTALLY REAL, and they take it entirely literally. There was literally a formerly dead guy wandering Jerusalem, along with the accompanying zombie apocalypse where all of the graves opened up and their occupants went about the city. This same Christian who invited me to the group, when asked how NO ONE ELSE noticed the army of darkness wandering around, said that it was because the undead only visited those who were believers, and were secretive and stealthy so as not to arouse any suspicion from the Pharisees or Roman authorities. It is it this point that I begin to weep, not for the loss of someones soul, but for their loss of sentient function. Let's just make the story up as we go along, and then say that we are a Bible believing Christian. Have your cake, and eat it too. Hell, why not just go all of the way and crucify the fucking cake at this point? It would be just as rational.

Then, after one members posts a video from a sorry excuse for a philosophy professor about how absolute morality MUST come from God and CANNOT come from any of the natural explanations that rational people offer. Then when I make a point about how absolute morality can't come from God, because the morality suggested in the Bible changes with time, and indeed modern religious morality changes precisely because secularism has taught it how to behave, it is asserted that there is not an absolute morality, that while the OT is considered BY THEM to be obsolete, the Ten Commandments, which are said to be mere suggestions for good behavior, but are still cool, but the rest of that law stuff, well that was just the civil/governmental law, and God just went along with it because it was the best they could do. WHAT. THE. FUCK! Is there no end to their ability to hold mutually exclusive positions without shame?

Suppose two physicists are having a discussion. Physicist 1: It's amazing how the natural order organizes itself in such an intricate way. Yay physics!Physicist 2: Indeed, but there's something I just don't get.Physicist 1: What's that?Physicist 2: I just don't get why we aren't all falling off of the earth right now. Physicist 1: Is that supposed to be a bad joke?Physicist 2: I'm serious! How do we stay stuck to the ground?Physicist 1: You knew, Isaac Newton figured that out a few centuries ago. It's called gravity. Physicist 2: Well, that was a few centuries ago, and times have changed. I don't believe in gravity , because it was largely influenced by Newton's culture, and anyways it's just a metaphor, we're not to take it literally that an objects ability to physically attract another object is related to its mass.

Now, at this point, Physicist 1 would rightfully question the reasoning faculties of his colleague, and at the very least, assert that he can't call himself a physicist if he doesn't believe in the most fundamental principles of physics. Any clear thinking person who is NOT a physicist or scientist of any sort would be within their rights to question whether Physicist 2 is really a physicist. The scientific method indeed encourages this type of criticism, and scientists are quick to call BS on one another. . However, if the same rationale is applied to Christianity,it's a totally valid argument! How can people not see that this really IS poisoning everything, most particularly the fertile minds of children who have to hear self righteous pricks saying that other children like them would still be alive if only for prayer in schools.

But, most pertinent of all I think, is that when God's OWN SON was condemned, tortured, and murdered, what did God do? Nothing. He just watched the spectacle unfold. Why should we expect more from God when it's other peoples children? In the case of God's son, it was His plan for Jesus to die anyways. God clearly has no problem with killing children. His best possible solution to the problem of human evil was to kill his own. Don't say it was a lack of prayer that led to the shooting. Given every possible opportunity, God demonstrates that he WANTS children to suffer and die.

And yet these same people, when things go badly, invoke the platitude of "God's Plan"....which we, as mere mortals cannot understand. So which is it? Does God sit by and let Satan inspire evil at every turn, or does he have some ineffable plan wherein all sorts of seeming tragedy has a reason?

All I can think of to make any kind of sense is the "Butterfly Effect" of this tragedy. The decsions made by people who are affected by it that may change the future. Career choices, inventions, legislation (hopefully not some stupid commie gun control), etc

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long. But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

What happened in that school and killed so many children doesn´t have anything with an existing or not existing god. It´s the fact that you have guns everywhere and if someone doesn´t like your look you might be killed. As long as you believe in the myth of the right of selfdefence by guns you will have to live with these desasters. And as nothing is going to change like it hasn´t before , it seems to us europeans that you are willing to pay this price for your "freedom".

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If 50 million people say a foolish thing it´s still a foolish thing (Bertrand Russel)

My biggest problem with the Christian response to this is that they seem to want to pray for peace for the families. That's a nice thought, and I hope that the parents can find enough peace to just cope through the holidays. But why pray for peace when their god is perfectly capable of resurrection? It doesn't make sense. I'm starting to think that even Christians don't believe in God, and that they're just finding ways to explain away their disbelief.

What happened in that school and killed so many children doesn´t have anything with an existing or not existing god. It´s the fact that you have guns everywhere and if someone doesn´t like your look you might be killed. As long as you believe in the myth of the right of selfdefence by guns you will have to live with these desasters. And as nothing is going to change like it hasn´t before , it seems to us europeans that you are willing to pay this price for your "freedom".

I don't own a gun, and I'm against hunting for sport. So I have no attachment to guns, and no reason to think that we should have a right to bear them. But restrictions on guns will not cure sick minds. With this mentality, we should have restrictions on duct tape because a year or so ago, a parent duct taped a pacifier to their kid's mouth, and the kid died.

You can't cure mental illness with litigation, unless we make it a law that the mentally ill are to be confined to a secure location. But even then, nothing is being solved. More problems are being created.

There is no easy solution, because this is a part of life at this point in human existence. This sounds callused. It sounds cold. But it's true. There may come a day where we master genetics and can disable violence in humans so that we only respond to specific physical threats. But is even that a solution?

As we near the Christmas holiday (yes, we celebrate Christmas Day...just not the birth of Christ), I'm thankful to pure luck that I still have my family; and I hope I remain lucky for many years to come.

And yet these same people, when things go badly, invoke the platitude of "God's Plan"....which we, as mere mortals cannot understand. So which is it? Does God sit by and let Satan inspire evil at every turn, or does he have some ineffable plan wherein all sorts of seeming tragedy has a reason?

All I can think of to make any kind of sense is the "Butterfly Effect" of this tragedy. The decsions made by people who are affected by it that may change the future. Career choices, inventions, legislation (hopefully not some stupid commie gun control), etc

You are far less batshit crazy than many, Lori

Yes, I can almost understand that sort of wide-ranging view in theory, but one would think an omnipotent god could manage to effect his ultimate scheme without such random cruelty. Aside from the fact that it hardly jibes with the biblical concept that god watches over and loves the least of his children. You just can't have it both ways... Either god has a far-flung, ultimate plan to bring this game he created to some conclusion which pleases him no matter how much human suffering is involved. Of which, by the way, there is no measurable difference in how it affects those who worship him vs those who don't. Or he has an individual love for every last one of us, knowing our every breath and hair on our heads.

Shandi (and welcome, by the way), you have a point, and it is easy to see why Europeans view us that way. And I agree totally. However, people dying for our convenience (European and American) happens every day on our highways. People die in the factories that make the products we buy. This is not excusing any of it. I just wanted to point out that we humans tend to be bothered the most by the things that are the least convenient rather than what is actually right or wrong. The horrific death of so many children (and adults), be it here or in Norway, is an extreme we notice. Most deaths we don't.

We Americans clearly need to make some adjustments to our society. We have to redefine normal to exclude shooting up malls and schools, we have to redefine news as a source of information, not entertainment. And speaking of entertainment, we have become and entertainment-based society, and have little to offer ourselves other than laugh tracks. To think that this does not disassociate many from reality is naïve, or at best only poorly explained on a "science" channel.

We Americans would be our own worst enemy if we didn't also happen to make some that are even worse foes. Like batshit crazy gun nuts who can't think of any solution but to cause others pain as well. And while I have never owned a gun and wish nobody else did either, the skanky reality is that there are too many of those weapons in the hands of too many of us to ever hope to make them disappear.

(I want to point out that up until the mid-80's, this country had a large network of state-government run mental asylums (very dependent on federal monies) for people with serious psychological problems. They had many shortcomings, but it was a place for people to go who needed help. For some reason, the Reagan administration decided that making most of those folks into street people was the answer. So not only do we now have fewer places for potential shooters to get help, we also have to hand strangers money every time we walk through town. I don't think that qualifies as a win-win situation. But by golly the mental hospitals that are left are mostly expensive and for profit, and that's the important thing, right? Profit.)

And while I have no quarrel with what you said, inveni0, I do want to point out that duct tape seldom kills accidentally, and in fact it seldom kills on purpose. The comparison between the two, simply because both guns and tape have been used to kill, is of little use.

An average of five people a year die in the US because the dishwasher door is open and the basket with silverware and utensils is exposed. And the knives and forks get fallen on. Every frickin' year. We are real good at killing ourselves in ways our cavemen ancestors never thought of. However, I can't help but notice that not one person was eaten by a saber toothed tiger this year. So we have made some progress.

Whether there is a god or not, the dude obviously isn't too involved in our day to day lives. Which means we sort of have to take some responsibility here. We have to recognize that those that shoot up pubic places do so for more than one reason. It wasn't simply that guns are legal, nor simply that he was depressed, nor simply that he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. We need to stop simplifying gun ownership, learn to recognize and offer help to the depressed, and stop glorifying violence. Among other things. Otherwise, just like the frickin' reporters who shove mics into townspeople's faces and ask how they are feeling after they have just lost so many neighbors, we all continue to be a part of the problem.

Now excuse me while I thumb through my video collection and go watch some movie for the 38th time.

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Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

What happened in that school and killed so many children doesn´t have anything with an existing or not existing god. It´s the fact that you have guns everywhere and if someone doesn´t like your look you might be killed. As long as you believe in the myth of the right of selfdefence by guns you will have to live with these desasters. And as nothing is going to change like it hasn´t before , it seems to us europeans that you are willing to pay this price for your "freedom".

what is next after guns?the right to speak?

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Fuck the Bible, you can't even eat in it.

First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.

invenio - you make a good point, but don't forget that we can slow down the rate of gun killings with some regulation.

There is SOME regulation. But even background checks do very little. If a father or mother can buy a gun, then the children can access it. And that's how it works. If someone decent can own a gun, then someone indecent can get their hands on one, too. For instance, the kid who shot up Connecticut had tried to buy a gun before the shooting. Couldn't. Got one anyway.

Restrictions on guns might not cure mental illness but it would prevent that every psycho has the possibility of getting one and then use them. It´s always the same the killer was a silent young man, nobody really noticed him and in this silence he gets out killing. Why do people who are not police, not military have to have armed guns in their homes? Here in Europe it is Switzerland where everybody who served in the army can take his gun home. And they have the highest suicide and gun-killing rates! I think that says a lot. The freedom of speech is a human right, the chance of getting killed watching a movie not.

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If 50 million people say a foolish thing it´s still a foolish thing (Bertrand Russel)

Restrictions on guns might not cure mental illness but it would prevent that every psycho has the possibility of getting one and then use them. It´s always the same the killer was a silent young man, nobody really noticed him and in this silence he gets out killing. Why do people who are not police, not military have to have armed guns in their homes? Here in Europe it is Switzerland where everybody who served in the army can take his gun home. And they have the highest suicide and gun-killing rates! I think that says a lot. The freedom of speech is a human right, the chance of getting killed watching a movie not.

nice that you slip that little opinion about speech being a human right in there after your diatribe...well... maybe to resolve the issue completely we should outlaw bodies...people can't have bodies any more.there nobody gets hurt.all it takes is some regulation.....err restrictions I mean...

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Fuck the Bible, you can't even eat in it.

First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.

whatever... when I am put into a position to defend myself I use any and all means possible.I am pretty systematic about it too...hopefully you don't have any trouble in the future.but the question wasn't for you and since you answered it...why shouldn't I be able to use any and all means possible to defend myself?

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Fuck the Bible, you can't even eat in it.

First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.

I don´t have to defend myself all day long, I don´t live in a war zone. And as all my neighbours feel the same we all walk unarmed and fearless around. You think we´re naiv?

bullshit.the universe is a hostile place and you know it.time is ticking away and you react to it.that reaction is a defense to stay alive.just like clothing is a tool to protect you from the environment so is any other tool.

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Fuck the Bible, you can't even eat in it.

First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.