Hi Alex,It is nice to meet you.These are very good looking birds.Probably some of the best I have seen so far of the breed.They are not Takla.However, I am sure in the history the two breeds' routes crossed a few times.Any way, they are known as Armenian Tumblers (at least one of the breeds known as Armenian Tumblers) and the closest relative would be the Azeri Tumbler in my opinion.Loud knock or crack is really a sign of a pretty large family of Tumbler breeds, not necessarily an identification sign of a single breed.Since you are digging into the history of the breed I think the best source of information for this breed can be found in Leninakan.Around 1829 there were 8 to 10 thousand Armenian people migrated to that city from Turkey.I am not sure what breeds were taken there during that migration and if Takla was part of it.If Takla was taken there then it certainly went through a big change and is no longer the same breed.As I mentioned before the physically the closest breed is the Azeri Tumbler and as far as the performance Uzbek is very similar.However, Uzbek (as I am sure you are well aware) has distinct physical differences then the birds shown here.As far as performance these birds are very different then the Takla.Let me know if that makes sense.

Thank you for the videos.We don't run into these type of breeds' videos every day.

Hello Kurt,I live in St.-Petersburg, Russia. It's over 400 miles between those Cities.My breed exactly Azeri tumblers. We call this breed as Baku. But I'm very interested about Armenian tumblers and history of that breed.Kurt, please let me know, if You explore something new about Armenian.

Ok. Now about Baku Tumblers.Azeri tumblers have different type of performance unlike of Leninakan tumblers. First of all they have not a loud knock (crack) of wings. Tumbling style of Azeri - is butterfly. Rule #1 for Azeri - is time of fly from 4 to 6 hours. As example my best result - 4:26 in last summer. Rule #2 for Azeri - is very hight flying (in point, as we say). And rule #3 - is performance. But as you already wrote "..I can tell you if that 11 number is true then the great performance is not."That is why in interesting armenian tumblers.Here is some photos of baku tumblers of my friend Grigory, he is livin' in Moscow:

Kurt, what can You say about this type of Azeri tumblers? I think they have a lot of Turkish roots. But some people think that this pigeons have Iranian roots. It's very interesting. I think that truth somewhere in the middle.Thanks and best regards. PS: sorry for my English.

There is nothing wrong with your English Alex.I sometimes write in a funny way myself.At least when I read it later on it sounds weird to me.

Alex_St wrote:I live in St.-Petersburg, Russia. It's over 400 miles between those Cities.

I have a friend named Nicholay Chehlatov who lives in Rostoc-on-Don.We have been communicating for quiet a while now over email but the language barrier has been a challenge.Any way, he is also very interested in similar pigeons you are interested in and had mentioned some people keeping them in Moskova region.I thought, I would ask.Needle in a hay stack but you don't know if you don't ask.We started communicating when he was looking for the origin of the Blogadar breed:

Looking at the photos, I have a question:The birds of Grigory you have on the photos are what we call Azeri tumblers but you guys also call them Baku?It is a bit confusing to me.Can you tell me little bit about this naming please?While we call those birds Azeri Tumblers the birds we call Baku are these:

These as Baku Grivun

Alex_St wrote:Here is some photos of baku tumblers of my friend Grigory, he is livin' in Moscow:

I really like the colored face bird in the first photo. Very sharp bird!Here are some Azeri photos Nicholay sent me a while ago:

Alex_St wrote:Kurt, what can You say about this type of Azeri tumblers? I think they have a lot of Turkish roots. But some people think that this pigeons have Iranian roots. It's very interesting. I think that truth somewhere in the middle.

They do have a lot of Turkish roots and more then one way. The comments you hear about the Iranian roots are also true but with a twist. Part of the Azeri tumbler is what we call Turkman Tumbler, which is from Northern Iran. So, it is from Iran but really from a Turk descent (more precisely Azeri Turk descent) not the Iranian birds most people would imagine as in the highfliers of Iran. It would be very difficult to hide the long body shape of those birds in any mix any way.Here are some different color Turkman tumblers:

Hello Kurt. The pictures You post are not opening. I don't know why.Now about Baku and Azeri. Baku city is a capital of Azerbaijan. And here in Russia we know only one and only breed from Azerbaijan. This is old breed named Baku tumblers. That is why we called Baku tumblers is Azeri - they from Azerbaijan.I tired to ask citizens of Azerbaijan about other breeds. They all says that they have only single breed. It is Baku breed.So there is a question: if Azeri breed is only one and only, why I see different types of than breed? I've never heard about other Azeri breeds.Here is some pictures of baku tumblers: http://golubibaku.narod.ru/galer/leo/leo.htmhttp://golubibaku.narod.ru/galer/leonid/leonid.htmAs You'll see they all different but all called Baku Tumblers. It is strange for me. A they all have Turkish roots?I mean this type: and this type

Last edited by Alex_St on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

Kurt Gürsu wrote:They do have a lot of Turkish roots and more then one way. The comments you hear about the Iranian roots area also true but with a twist. Part of the Azeri tumbler is what we call Turkman Tumbler, which is from Northern Iran. So, it is from Iran but really from a Turk descent (more precisely Azeri Turk descent) not the Iranian birds most people would imagine as in the highfliers of Iran. It would be very difficult to hide the long body shape of those birds in any mix any way.

In Russia we know about two breeds from Turkmenia (i.e. Soviet Union Republic named Turkmenistan).First famous breed is Agaran or Aga Airan. This is part of big middle-asian (Uzbek) group of tumblers. Here is a photo:

Second breed from Turkmenia is a tumblers from Krasovodsk City. Actually this breed is Baku. As far as Krasnovodsk is near Baku.Unfortunately the photo You post is not opening. Kurt. It is very important for me to know about affinity of Turkish Takla and Azery breeds. As example Grigiry's breed. I hope my understanding of this point is correct.Alex.PS: Nikolai told me about You. That is why I'm here. Best regards.

Hello again.Kurt, sorry for another question. I Just found out about old breed named Corum clean-legged. I think this is a root for baku. Maybe I've wrong? Do You saw Corum pigeons?Here is very interesting article, but I don know a Turkish. But a photo. Especially white pigeons.

Alex_St wrote:Ok. Now about Baku Tumblers.Azeri tumblers have different type of performance unlike of Leninakan tumblers. First of all they have not a loud knock (crack) of wings. Tumbling style of Azeri - is butterfly.

Alex, That is not quite correct info. I left Ashkhabad around 20 years ago and remember other style of performance Baku Tumblers from the remoted sixtieth. They are extremely fast acting birds. That is why some of them landing with bleeding area around wrist or first digit. I know for high quality Takla that bleeding is unacceptable. The butterfly style you describing is more suitable fore Iranian Tumblers I've seen a lot here in New York area. But time fly much faster than our birds....... so butterfly style of baku is selected by someone or it is just other line of Bakinskih.

Alex_St wrote:Hello Kurt. The pictures You post are not opening. I don't know why.

Can you refresh after the page loads completely?Maybe because of the connection speed it is happening.I tried a few different PCs and I am not running into a problem.

Alex_St wrote:Now about Baku and Azeri. Baku city is a capital of Azerbaijan. And here in Russia we know only one and only breed from Azerbaijan. This is old breed named Baku tumblers. That is why we called Baku tumblers is Azeri - they from Azerbaijan.I tired to ask citizens of Azerbaijan about other breeds. They all says that they have only single breed. It is Baku breed.So there is a question: if Azeri breed is only one and only, why I see different types of than breed? I've never heard about other Azeri breeds.Here is some pictures of baku tumblers: http://golubibaku.narod.ru/galer/leo/leo.htmhttp://golubibaku.narod.ru/galer/leonid/leonid.htmAs You'll see they all different but all called Baku Tumblers. It is strange for me. A they all have Turkish roots?

You know, it would be disrespectfull of me to say much about what the Azeri breeders are saying.After all it's their breed.What I can say is how we see the breed in Turkey and what we think.For us there are 2 distinct breeds in that area.One is Baku and its clean legged breed (which also has sub varieties with in it self like the Grivun).The other is the Azeri Tumbler and that is not only muffed but also physically a bit different then the Baku.I know, when you look at a loft full of birds it gets confusing since these 2 breeds are being kept as one breed and there are also many mixed birds.To me both breeds are close to Takla but Azeri is much closer. Baku's relationship is over a thousand years while the Azeri has had Takla introduced to it with in last 200 years multiple times.This is very similar to the Dönek deal takes place in Easter Europe.Any way, what is important is why and how the fanciers of these (or this) breeds are keeping them.That is more important then the history of the breed to be honest.The performance of both Baku and Azeri are very different then Takla since we want our birds to only perform right infront of us, not up in the air.

Alex_St wrote:In Russia we know about two breeds from Turkmenia (i.e. Soviet Union Republic named Turkmenistan).First famous breed is Agaran or Aga Airan. This is part of big middle-asian (Uzbek) group of tumblers.

We call this breed Agarani. It is related to Takla and more specificly the Antalya variety (which is extinct right now) and because of that it is also related to Syrian Tumbler.However, this relationship is very old, even older then the one with Baku and the two breeds are very different now.Agarani

The breed we call Turkmen or Turkman has nothing to do with Agarani and I am not even sure if it exists in Turkmenistan.TurkmanThis is a breed that is kept by people who have Turk ancestory in Middle East.Northern Iran and used to be in much smaller quantities in Northern Iraq but got mixed with multiple breeds there and I am not sure if can be found in it's pure form any more.

Alex_St wrote:Second breed from Turkmenia is a tumblers from Krasovodsk City. Actually this breed is Baku. As far as Krasnovodsk is near Baku.Unfortunately the photo You post is not opening. Kurt. It is very important for me to know about affinity of Turkish Takla and Azery breeds. As example Grigiry's breed.

I am not familiar with the Krasovodsk breed, unless it is the Baku.

I think, if you are trying to figure out the relationships of all these tumbler breeds it would be a good idea to also look into these ones:

Alex_St wrote:Hello again.Kurt, sorry for another question. I Just found out about old breed named Corum clean-legged. I think this is a root for baku. Maybe I've wrong? Do You saw Corum pigeons?Here is very interesting article, but I don know a Turkish. But a photo. Especially white pigeons.

I don't think there is any relationship between the two breeds Alex.They are simply two different clean-legged tumbler breeds.Then again this is just my thought, nothing based on written documents.