[Lore] Old Horde and Burning Legion!

Hello there.

Im curious as to what do you guys think on the following matter.
We know the Burning Legion manipulated the Old Horde, and that the Old was the single most destructive force Draenor or Azeroth has ever known (greater even than Scourge).
And we know why it didnt succed in completely shattering the Alliance, because they didnt act united as a fist. Noone was loyal to noone there.

But i ask you guys what do you think, if they would have succeded in destroying the alliance (i mean draeneis on Draenor and humans and dwarves on Eastern Kingdoms), do you think would the Old Horde turn against Burning Legion?
We saw what Grom Hellsream did to Manoroth a Legion General, immagine a 10fold strong Fel Grom Hellscream, we saw how devastating it can be when vastly outnumbered yet he brought Cenarius to his knees.

Was the Burning Legion playing with fire by enpowering the Old Horde, or they knew what they were doing?
They enpowered an already naturally strength race, probably in desperation to kill off the draeneis, or they thought of it well?

If Gul'dan would get his hands upon the eye of Sargeras, would he still listen to Kil'jaedan or would he try to crush him? Was he that loyal? or was he power hungering?

Fel orcs eventually fall under the sway of the demons. Before Grom was freed by Thrall and Jaina, he had become madly devoted to the Burning Legion, believing it was the destiny of the orcs. To say nothing of all the Horde forces on Outland that eventually came to serve Magtheridon.

As for Gul'dan, well we saw how going after the Eye worked out for him. He never stood a chance. If he'd somehow gotten ahold of the Eye, he might have challenged Kil'jaeden... but Illidan did succeed in getting the Eye and never tried to use it against the demon.

I imagine anyone who took down Kil'jaeden would simply replace him as Sargeras' top dog.

Judging from your other posts you're a major Horde fanboy and want it to be like this.

It's not true though and The Old Horde was not that strong.

But I'll play along and make an obvious horde fanboy happy and say. Yes, they would be super strong and powerful.

First of all, Gul'Dan was never loyal to the Horde not anyone else but himself and power. So him playing an intregral part in making the Old Horde strike down the Burning Legion... meeh not likely. He'd rather have both factions killed/slaugthered for his own amusement and enjoy.

I don't understand why people are fascinated by the Old Horde nor the New Horde really. I don't buy their "justificaton" for finding their peace and their home as that is obviously never what they seek after a few hours of sitting around. Nor do I understand why anyone would like the Old Horde. It's like liking and sympthasing with Mao and his cultural revolution or basically any ruthless autocratic state that wants to slaugther anything else. Yes, I know it's a game but those who actually like to do the bidding of the Old Horde/Garrosh wouldn't probably mind that either.

Inb4 shitstorm.

And wooah. We KNOW that the Old Horde was the single most destructive force Azeroth has ever seen? That's a funny statement.

But i ask you guys what do you think, if they would have succeded in destroying the alliance (i mean draeneis on Draenor and humans and dwarves on Eastern Kingdoms), do you think would the Old Horde turn against Burning Legion?
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Why would they turn against the hand that feeds them?

The Orcs were under the effect of Bloodlust, literally they were addicted to spilling blood and killing
Seeing how the Legion intended to scour all order and life from the universe, I think the Orcs would be pretty busy

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

The Horde's Bloodlust was both the Legion's asset and their insurance policy, a tool for decimating other civilizations but also to eventually destroy the horde itself, as you said... the old horde was far from united.

Originally Posted by Crym

Spoiler: The reason Garrosh is defeated is because, just when he's being attacked, Malchezaar pops out of a portal, yells "yoink!", and takes his weapon away.

But i ask you guys what do you think, if they would have succeded in destroying the alliance (i mean draeneis on Draenor and humans and dwarves on Eastern Kingdoms)

The Draenais on Draenor only survived because of one thing: Honor..
Draenais were considered, by the Orcs, "too weak to constitute an honorable kill" and was therefor mostly left alone, as killing weakligs are frowned upon..
Had the Draenai been stronger, they would have been annihilated centuries ago (on Draenor, atleast)...

However, due the demonic influence, Draenai could have been killed anyway, without anyone thinkig about honor, wo knows?

that the Old was the single most destructive force Draenor or Azeroth has ever known (greater even than Scourge).

Wrong. Old Horde's success was mainly due to the Alliance being unprepared for a massive war, not fully knowing what they were dealing with. The only kingdom fully ravaged was Stormwind. Rest held the line.

Scourge, on the other hand, fully decimated Lordaeron (a kingdom twice the size and strength of Stormwind), Quel'thalas and Dalaran, also fighting its way to Mt. Hyjal across Kalimdor (mainly as the Legion's cannon fodder, but still), and waging two successful Northrend campaigns.

I doubt Old Horde was any threat to the Legion, they were simply shock troops held on a leash. I do agree, however, that Ner'zhul did screw the Legion up pretty bad.

They weren't that destructive. Certainly not more than the scourge. Let's not forget that Jaina and her party of human soldiers and Thrall's small orc group managed to penetrate the fel orc defenses and use some spell to bring Grom back from his ragemode. The scourge singlehandedly destroyed most of human civilization and threatened to extinguish all life.

The Legion has always underestimated the tenacity, resilience and ingenuity of the mortal races and it has bitten them in the ass more than once.

I think the demons rushed their campaign of Azeroth without first understanding the power of the Ancients that dwell there and their relationship with the mortals (and the temporarily immortal night elves). They didn't see just how strong Orcish will was either or their ability for cunning. I think they viewed them as glorified barbaric cannon-fodder. A savage, mindless army they could use to destroy the draenei and then advance upon Azeroth with. But, the Orcs (with the likes of Doomhammer and Grom) proved to be much more than that.

Fel orcs eventually fall under the sway of the demons. Before Grom was freed by Thrall and Jaina, he had become madly devoted to the Burning Legion, believing it was the destiny of the orcs. To say nothing of all the Horde forces on Outland that eventually came to serve Magtheridon.

As for Gul'dan, well we saw how going after the Eye worked out for him. He never stood a chance. If he'd somehow gotten ahold of the Eye, he might have challenged Kil'jaeden... but Illidan did succeed in getting the Eye and never tried to use it against the demon.

I imagine anyone who took down Kil'jaeden would simply replace him as Sargeras' top dog.

Didnt realise she had a hand in that? Thought it was just Thrall and Grom?

They weren't that destructive. Certainly not more than the scourge. Let's not forget that Jaina and her party of human soldiers and Thrall's small orc group managed to penetrate the fel orc defenses and use some spell to bring Grom back from his ragemode. The scourge singlehandedly destroyed most of human civilization and threatened to extinguish all life.

um......

That scenario had nothing to do with the Old Horde.

Thrall did not have a small group with him, he had the entire Horde, plus all the allies he picked up.
The Fel Orcs only consisted of most of the Warsong Clan

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Wrong. Old Horde's success was mainly due to the Alliance being unprepared for a massive war, not fully knowing what they were dealing with. The only kingdom fully ravaged was Stormwind. Rest held the line.

Scourge, on the other hand, fully decimated Lordaeron (a kingdom twice the size and strength of Stormwind), Quel'thalas and Dalaran, also fighting its way to Mt. Hyjal across Kalimdor (mainly as the Legion's cannon fodder, but still), and waging two successful Northrend campaigns.

I doubt Old Horde was any threat to the Legion, they were simply shock troops held on a leash. I do agree, however, that Ner'zhul did screw the Legion up pretty bad.

Yeah mate but you are missing one point, Gul'dan betraying Doomhammer, as i said if Old Horde acted as a single first, If Gul'dan wouldve helped Doomhammer to completely shatter the alliance, and then IF Doomhammer would have helped Gul'dan in his quest for eye of Sargeras.

As i said their only problem was loyality. Then i say that Legion would play with fire since the potential of a fel orcs along with green orcs along with the might of Gul'dan would have eventually brought Burning Legion to its knees!

Also We know what apocalyptic acts Gul'dan did, imagine a fel Gul'dan a horror even to Sargeras himself, we saw what fel Grom could do, i can safely say that Legion was up to their heads in trouble.

However, two events occurred that would inevitably doom the orcs' invasion to failure. The first was the assassination of Medivh, which in turn caused the great spirit of the Dark Titan in him to be banished to the Abyss. The second, ironically, was caused by Gul'dan's lust for power, the same trait that had originally been used to corrupt the orcs. Gul'dan facilitated the Horde's fall in the Second War by seeking out the Tomb of Sargeras which, as told to him by Sargeras himself through Medivh, he believed would give him all the powers held by the Dark Titan before his demise eight hundred years before. As a result of his actions, Orgrim Doomhammer lost nearly half his standing forces and the orcs lost their one chance of wiping out the last bastion of human power for good. Given enough time to regather and reorganize, the humans followed with a fierce counter-attack that ultimately won them the war. The orcs had failed.

. Given enough time to regather and reorganize, the humans followed with a fierce counter-attack that ultimately won them the war. The orcs had failed.

thus the idea of the Scourge came about

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 03:53 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Rasula Elfbiter

Wrong. Old Horde's success was mainly due to the Alliance being unprepared for a massive war, not fully knowing what they were dealing with. The only kingdom fully ravaged was Stormwind. Rest held the line.
.

The rest of the human/elven/dwarven kingdoms were throughly ravaged by the war too.
They didnt escape the war un-scathed, the Orcish Horde were knocking on the gates of Lorderon city before Gul'dan's betryal

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

The old Horde were never super duper ultimate powerful army...in fact they were considered as a failure something like a fail test subject which is why the scourge got created and were much better than the old Horde a much better tool for the Burning Legion.

The old Horde were never super duper ultimate powerful army...in fact they were considered as a failure something like a fail test subject which is why the scourge got created and were much better than the old Horde a much better tool for the Burning Legion.

Was the Burning Legion playing with fire by enpowering the Old Horde, or they knew what they were doing?

I know it's Knaak, but Broxigar even made Sargeras feel a little pain. Nobody has ever achieved that.

Now imagine a gigantic army of Orcs vs the Legion. Yes, the Legion was kind of stupid to empower them that much. They were definitely an overlooked threat. If they didn't start to fight eachother, entire Azeroth would've been Horde after WCII. After that, the Legion could've been next.

However, the Legion was probably smarter than them and thus able to manipulate the Old Horde enough to defend themselves from a full scale war.
And that's pretty much what happened. Gul'dan was lured by powerful demonic artifacts and that's when they started fighting eachother, which gave the Alliance the deciding chance to retaliate.

Does this mean that we can say that the Alliance wouldn't exist without the Legion? Well, the Old Horde wouldn't have come to Azeroth either if it wasn't for the Legion. Still, from one perspective the Legion kinda saved/spared the Alliance.

Anyway, forgot to say: I voted the Legion was playing with fire, Old Horde was becoming too strong.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 05:27 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Laukkanen

And wooah. We KNOW that the Old Horde was the single most destructive force Azeroth has ever seen? That's a funny statement.

They almost wiped out all humans, dwarves and elves. (well, the elves that were known at that time)
Yes, they got very close to ultimate victory and thus they have been a bigger threat than the Scourge.

I voted 'the Legion was playing with fire...'
But not exactly because the Horde was growing too strong. I voted that one because, time and again, in both factual history as well as fiction, it is only a matter of time before the subjugators get dethroned by the one ones they subjugate. Every now and then, someone will stand up and create a following in opposing the masters. Usually, those are culled quickly, but sooner or later, someone will not be culled on time.

Didnt realise she had a hand in that? Thought it was just Thrall and Grom?

It was one of those old WC3 ingame cutscenes, I don't know how canon it is. It was her, Jaina, some shaman and some priests and sorceresses.

Now, old Horde vs. Scourge...

Old Horde destroyed Stormwind (eventually reclaimed), ravaged Quel'Thalas, and made various attacks against dwarven holdings and Lordaeron before being halted. Also the crap they pulled in Outland, destroying the draenei.

Scourge destroyed Lordaeron utterly, ravaged most of the northern human holdings, also ravaged Quel'Thalas (arguably worse than the Horde), destroyed Dalaran, and made attacks against night elf holdings and Mount Hyjal before being stopped. Plus they conquered all of Northrend, destroying Azjol-Nerub and Zul'Drak and subverting the majority of the vrykul race.

The old Horde had its moments and did some damage, but for sheer body count and number of cultures eradicated, the Scourge wins.