lol, point taken. But he could have easily also said. "a powerful clone army, that was given the order from an even more powerful sith lord, was the reason the jedi are no more. They went into hiding, and this Sith lord, with his army at his call, hunted down the last of the jedi's and destroyed them. Oh ya, there was this punk Darth Vader with them too. He didn't really do anything that the army couldn't do themselves, but god damn was he mean looking"

yeah, but you're assuming things that nobody knows for sure. i'm sure vader could've gone on missions himself to hunt down some jedi. he had the army at the temple because there were so many of jedi all together. i'm sure he could do some hunting down himself. but that's all irrelevant because it doesn't happen in the movie. in the movie, yes, the clones did the most work.

just taking order 66, not any hunting that might occur later on...but, why would vader/anakin go to each and every world where a jedi was just to kill them? travel all the way to mygeeto just to stab kiadimundi? then go all the way to felucia to stab aayla?

ok, after order 66, sure, theres not many jedi left, so hunting the rest down would be worth it. but since theres thousands of jedi at the time of order 66, wtf is anakin gonna do?

wasn't it the first time you have experienced or perceived, that Jedi's are weak. thats what I thought. In OT, the mystery behind being a Jedi was totally cool and all, which made me love star wars in the first place. The explanation of this made it shitty.

Originally posted by mysterio69 yeah. you kinda get the impression that they're these mysterious wizard-like people who do good in the galaxy...or something like that. now, they're just a bunch of policeman who get ****ed up.

True, but you do still have the choice to see the Jedi's in any light you wish. I can certainly see peoples point that the Jedi's were revealed as something not quite "jedi like" in the end. Hints of arrogance, possibly even mistakes on their part.

But at the same time, you can choose like me to still assume the best of them, and just chalk it all up to a very powerful and manipulative Sith Lord that clouded their judgment and changed everything. He twisted everything against them. Half the stuff he says about them flat out isn't true, and the other half might be true, but from a certain clouded perspective.

I think at heart, most of the jedi's are still pure. At least the ones like Yoda and Obi wan and stuff. Not sure about Windu. I've always felt he is a little dark jedi"ish", but that's just me.

But they certainly did get fuked up in a hurry didn't they. I guess that's my point all along. They got fuked up fast by clones and palps, NOT by anakin. His role and influence in the grand scheme of things is actually quite small when you think about it.

I had a breif "anakin seems to be quite unnecessary" revelation, coupled with everyone saying anakin brought down the jedi's, which spawned this thread. I think anakins role is very minor actually, until the end of ROTJ when the profecy is fulfulled.

The point of the matter is that Ben Kenobi says that Vader "helped" the empire hunt down and kill the jedi. The key word is "helped," Vanquish acts like he was supposed to kill all the jedi. So it was true, he helped kill the jedi.

Well I suppose if your mom ties your shoes for you in the morning, you can say she "helped" you. But I would rather take the perspective that you can tie your own damn shoes, so regardless of who does it for you, they aren't helping you because it isn't needed.

Vader did help palps do those things yes, but the whole point is that the help is not needed because it could all have been done anyway. Get it yet? or do I have to rephrase it another way for ya

Vader is a pointless character until the last 5 minutes of ROTJ. There it is, plain and simple. Nothing he did was necessary for it to BE HIM. It could have been several other people also, or just the clones if need be.

Like I said, our perception has changed throughout the PT. I'm a huge Star wars fan and all, right from the OT, but I can never feel the way I did from before.

Off course the PT is all good and all, but, it makes you feel differently of what you used to think about SW.

I never noticed it until I started thinking about myself. I remember I couldn;t watch EP IV without seeing the next ones. You just had to watch the rest.

I feel that I cannot to the same, maybe cause I gotton old, although I'm not that old (23). when it comes to EU, I think its ok, but you cant take it for granted cause EU is like anyone of us writing a novel, we can come up with our own theories. Ha, even though theories come with just watching the movies. I could say more, but I leave it on that

When you all were watching the OT way back when, didn't you see Darth Vader basically as a god. He was so cool, and so powerful, that it seemed nothing could stop him. If you even looked at him wrong, he would force choke you to death. We didn't really see much of the emperor, so the OT's made it appear that vader was that leader of the empire, and it couldn't have been anyone else BUT him. It had to be him. The strongest, the coolest, the badest villian of all time.

But now after seeing the PT's, especially ROTS, it seems that is not at all the case. First off, he is a whinny little pussy in all the movies. Second, he is far from unbeatable. In fact, he gets his ass kicked on several occasions. Lastly, he isn't even the one in charge of the empire, palpy is. Vader actually seemed to have very little to do with any of it as it turns out.

This was my point. The OT made it appear that Vader was the best, and that it could not have been anyone else but him in that role. But the PT makes it clear that he is definitely not the strongest, definitely not the smartest, and definitely not the coolest. Also, he isn't in charge of anything, and he didn't influence the time line much at all. It could have been any one of like a dozen characters that filled his role.

He wasen't needed for controling the empire, because palps does that.

He wasen't needed for palps to gain any power at all, because palps manipulated that power all for himself.

He wasen't needed for killing the jedi's, because the clones did, and can do that. (the topic of my other thread)

He wasen't needed for much of anything actually. Vader in the OT was a god. Anakin in the PT ruins everything I ever thought about Vader. You could remove him from the movie entirely and not even notice now.