BAGHDAD, Iraq - Saddam Hussein pleaded innocent to charges of murder and torture as his long-awaited trial began Wednesday with the one-time dictator arguing about the legitimacy of the court and scuffling with guards.

The first session of the trial lasted about three hours, and the judge ordered an adjournment until Nov. 28.

Saddam and his seven co-defendants could face the death penalty if convicted for the 1982 massacre of nearly 150 Shiites in the town of Dujail. They are being tried in the former headquarters of Saddam's Baath Party.

After presiding judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin, a Kurd, read the defendants their rights and the charges against them — which also include forced expulsions and illegal imprisonment — he asked each for their plea. He started with the 68-year-old ousted dictator, saying "Mr. Saddam, go ahead. Are you guilty or innocent?"

Saddam replied quietly, "I said what I said. I am not guilty," referring to his arguments earlier in the session.

Amin read out the plea, "Innocent."

The confrontation then became physical. When a break was called, Saddam stood, smiling, and asked to step of the room. When two guards tried to grab his arms to escort him out, he angrily shook them off.

They tried to grab him again, and Saddam struggled to free himself. Saddam and the guards shoved each other and yelled for about a minute.

It ended with Saddam getting his way, and he was allowed to walk independently, with the two guards behind him, out of the room for the break.

I'd like to know how he thinks he's going to get anywhere by pleading innocent. It seems as if his lawyers think he has a chance or else he wouldn't plead that way.

How does someone who ended up hiding in a hole to avoid capture think he's innocent. Something not right there.

I suppose his little fight at the end makes him believe he still has a little freedom left.

Personally i hope they throw the book at him.

tlr online

19-10-05, 14:20

Another puppet show, with the usual suspects pulling the strings.

Catapharact

19-10-05, 14:31

Hmmmmm....

"A single death is a tradgedy. A thousand deaths is a statistic."

Really, it's easier to convict a man for one murder, but it's really hard to convict one for mass genocide. Too many factors involved. I mean take Molosovic. Good example on how internation trials would last years.

tlr online

19-10-05, 14:34

Originally posted by Catapharact:
Really, it's easier to convict a man for one murder, but it's really hard to convict one for mass genocide. Don't be so sure Catapharact. The guilty verdict is prolly already in an envolope somewhere.

This 'trial' is just a farce.

bjthefish

19-10-05, 14:39

what the ****?! how can that ******* plead innocent when he killed all those people? he makes me sick.

Catapharact

19-10-05, 14:44

Originally posted by tlr online:
[QUOTE]Don't be so sure Catapharact. The guilty verdict is prolly already in an envolope somewhere.

This 'trial' is just a farce. Expecting it to be, but just for my own ideal situation, I am assuming he gets a fair trail (yeah I know... BIG assumption.)

"One standard will be judicial independence. Questions have been raised as to the independence of the Iraqi judges appointed to the tribunal. There are also concerns as to their capacity to conduct such important trials. In addition, it is clear the judges will come under pressure from some sectors of the Iraqi population to swiftly convict and issue the death penalty."

tlr online

19-10-05, 14:52

It's not just the Iraqi population that will be applying pressure on them. I can think of a few other parties that prolly need a guilty verdict more than the Iraqi's.

Catapharact

19-10-05, 14:58

Ok, this is gonna be open view to all:

Agree or disagree, I don't care. Logically, however, it's very plausable.

Reasons why having a base setup in Iraq is vital:

1) Iraq boarders many states that have been labled "Rouge;" Iran being one of them. Controlling Iraq gives you vital access to many of these countries.

2) For those who don't think it's about the oil... Ummm, think again. With China now firmaly in the market, U.S. may lose out in the long run. Iran already has signed a multi-million dollar contract with China.

3) Saddam's threat on the Iraqi people was never on the agenda. The reason why Iraq was such a hotspot for the U.S. is because it was in vital Scud Launch range to Isreal.

Think about it. Justice... There is no Justice.

[ 19. October 2005, 15:04: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

tlr online

19-10-05, 15:05

The problem, again, is the 'labelling' of countries with their own sovereign rights.

Who has the right to label countries as 'rogue states'?

We're right back to the argument on who polices the world. (or who thinks they police the world)

It's just full circle again. There has to be another solution.

tlr online

19-10-05, 15:08

... because if there is not another solution, in time the "terrorists" (sic) will obtain nuclear arms, and then the http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/censored.gif will hit the fan.

Catapharact

19-10-05, 15:09

Well, this is just my POV.

I say restructure the UN. Give it a BIG overhaul. Equak representation on ALL key councils as well as NO veto power.

Along with that, the UN needs to have a major ungrade in it's military. If we are to have a world police, it should be controled by the world.

tlr online

19-10-05, 15:17

A global political presence is what's needed where every country is represented EQUALLY, but WITHOUT the rudimentary threat of military pressure. Think long term. What is more effective at applying pressure than economic sanctions? Trade is a global currency.

What we need to eradicate are governments taking the law into their own hands to the detriment of the global community.

This isn't Middle-Earth. There is no 'One Ring' to bind them all.

[ 19. October 2005, 15:22: Message edited by: tlr online ]

Catapharact

19-10-05, 15:23

Hmmm, what you are thinking is Globilization ;) . Well, in some ways there is much sense in that; Economics wise anyway.

But people will never go for it. It's not that they don't think the laws are good. They would just think their laws are better.

And you can never have total sanction upon a country. When that happens, a black market emerges Justin, and that can lead to a whole new problem. We could be seeing secreat alliances forged between countries on the basis of that.

Gomes

19-10-05, 15:29

Who's going to judge Bush for the 20000+ innocent civilians he killed during the Iraq war?

tlr online

19-10-05, 15:34

You raise a fair point there, and you've definitely given me a lot of food for thought on the whole concept of globalisation. My immediate response would be to question whether globalisation isn't such a bad idea. In one fell swoop you could eradicate poverty, and create an equal planet when no one country is any better than another. I'm going to think long and hard before I rattle on some more about this tho. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Right now, I don't have all the answers. What I do know is that military action is not the way forward. Just look what that's done to our 'civilised' planet. Most folks are now afraid to go on holiday from fear of being caught up in some kind of retaliatory violence.

I mean, really, it's so tragic it's almost laughable.

tlr online

19-10-05, 15:41

And before Flipper or Eric suggest otherwise. Yes, I am well versed on the atrocities committed by Sadam, and also without any shadow of a doubt do I consider him guilty as hell.

But with the same sureness, I believe that this trial is all about qualifying an illegal war on Iraq. Keep blotting the copybook and the real picture will become unidentifiable.

Whitewash, anyone.

Catapharact

19-10-05, 15:44

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."

Food for thought to those who think war is the way. You want reason, well you got enough now not to go to war.

Capt. Murphy

19-10-05, 18:05

Originally posted by tlr online:
What I do know is that military action is not the way forward. So... Diplomacy? :confused: Yeah. Maybe the fundamental muslims and mullahs will be willing to make a deal. :D

We'll all hold hands and sing song by the camp fire with our terrori... Oh wait. I forgot. There are no such things as terrorists. Except Bush who personally killed millions of innocent civillians.

Mmmm. This Cool-Aid is delicious.

*chug-a-lug chug-a-lug*

edit: and it'll all be accomplished through 'Globalization'. Ah. The word just rolls off the tongue. Then all of the hard working Americans can have some percent of their paycheck go to corrupt governments in Africa to supposedly "help and feed" all those (yes - unfortunate :( ) poor and starving children. :rolleyes: It'll be a small small (welfare) world after all. Viva la Communista! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

[ 19. October 2005, 18:12: Message edited by: Capt. Murphy ]

Spitfire

19-10-05, 18:11

...This is just sad, the guy has done every possible thing wrong and should be held for the deaths of all those people.

He may get his way now but i doubt he will be let off the hook that easy.

And as for Politicians and leaders, they are always guilty.

Catapharact

19-10-05, 18:21

Originally posted by Capt. Murphy:
So... Diplomacy? :confused: Yeah. Maybe the fundamental muslims and mullahs will be willing to make a deal. :D Oh yeah and I am very sure we can expect full retreat from the US an coalition forces once a stable govenment is in place :rolleyes: ... Ummm, wonder who actually gave Saddam his backing in the first place....

Originally posted by Capt. Murphy:
We'll all hold hands and sing song by the camp fire with our terrori... Oh wait. I forgot. There are no such things as terrorists. Except Bush who personally killed millions of innocent civillians.Hmmm, the Columbian Crisis... Ring any bells? Perhaps the U.S. govenment was right to provide arms to the army. After all, they just used them to assert power over the civilian populaiton.

Originally posted by Capt. Murphy:
It'll all be accomplished through 'Globalization'. Ah. The word just rolls off the tongue. Then all of the hard working Americans can have some percent of their paycheck go to corrupt governments in Africa to supposedly "help and feed" all those (yes - unfortunate :( ) poor and starving children. :rolleyes: It'll be a small small (welfare) world after all. Viva la Communista! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif Oh for goodness sakes, what is the REAL driving power behind governemnts. Wars? Ha! You wouldn't survive on bit without a stable economy. Though TOTAL globilization isn't a possibility, there is always a chance the WTO can funtion properly (keeping in mind htough that SOME members Hint hint would follow the rules.) It's far from Comminisim.

Capt. Murphy

19-10-05, 18:22

Originally posted by SpitFire:
And as for Politicians and leaders, they are always guilty. I'm going to go ahead and say it. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

It might be about who is more guilty than the others -is who gets put on trail.

I'm not denying the war in Iraq was a bad thing (war is never a good thing - but sometimes a high price must be paid for the good of a people and the security of the world). But Saddam could have never simply been asked nicely to give up his power. We should all know how big of a skunk this guy was and everything he did (and got away with).

Capt. Murphy

19-10-05, 18:30

I see what you're getting at Catapharact. ...about the U.S. going to war with "permission" from the glorious U.N. Funny. Saddam gets away with sh** for 12 (some) years then America finally does something about it (keeping in mind there wasn't any such scandals like... oh say; "Oil for Food"... Nah http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif ) then suddenly it's the U.S. and Bush that is the world's villian.

:confused:

Maybe I need to get some 'Red spectacles' to see the world in a different light. :rolleyes:

edit: and before you even go there... ;)

Yes. The U.S. did help Saddam back in the late 80's. But he asked us for help (right?). So like any good global neighbor ('cause it's good to "Global" :rolleyes: ) we helped him.

Take for instance a 'neighbor' that comes to you and says "I have some people thar are bothering me and threatening me. Could I borrow your gun so I can defend myself?" and you say "Why sure. I know if I were in trouble I'd want help. So here ya go. ;) "

Later, that guy you helped starts to get a superiority complex. He begins to be the one who is causing trouble.

As a responsible citizen of the world you'd have an obligation to correct your mistake. -No?

:D

[ 19. October 2005, 18:37: Message edited by: Capt. Murphy ]

Thorn

19-10-05, 18:35

edit: X

[ 19. October 2005, 18:36: Message edited by: THORN ]

Catapharact

19-10-05, 18:37

Originally posted by Capt. Murphy:
I see what you're getting at Catapharact. ...about the U.S. going to war with "permission" from the glorious U.N.Funny as well on how the U.S is quick to quote U.N. laws when it comes to their benifit, and very quick to break them as well, when it doesn't. Hmmm, funny; Sounds like dictatorship to me.

Originally posted by Capt. Murphy:
Funny. Saddam gets away with sh** for 12 (some) years then America finally does something about it (keeping in mind there wasn't any such scandals like... oh say; "Oil for Food"... Nah http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif ) then suddenly it's the U.S. and Bush that is the world's villian.You and I both know well that that monster wouldn't have been in power for long. The thing is though, I don't see the U.S. apologizing for the fact that they backed this man all along before, and suddenly, when he becomes a threat to neighbouring Israel, he is suddenly on the U.S. radar map. Uh such hippocrits.

[ 19. October 2005, 18:41: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

Capt. Murphy

19-10-05, 18:42

You use the word "hippocrits" in such a manner as if no-one has ever made a mistake. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

Catapharact

19-10-05, 18:48

Mistake? It was a costly mistake.... 5000 Kurds! Poisoned gased, and countless others tortured. I guess the passing of their lives was just a "mistake."

Saddam needs to pay for his sins, no doubt about that, but the U.S. government seriously needs to reshape it's forigen policy. This "gung ho" attitude won't benifit anyone. In the long run it'll demolish the U.S. ecomony, and leave it peril.

Let's face it, things won't change until there's a fundamental change in Mankind. The Nation-state must give way to something else; something not built on ownership of land, resources and, ultimately, human beings! This Nationalistic mind-set is to blame; the super-powers change but the results remain the same: Virtual, and even very real, enslavement of men women and children; destruction of Nature and diminishment of resources...

The USA, Germany, Great Britain before them... and it goes back throughout history! All these peoples and Nations have lived by the same basic mind-set: progress through acquisition and control... when that changes everything will change. No sooner. Oh, and the necessary revolution accompanying that mindset will probably be global--for the first time in human history! (That's the real power of the internet--and those in power know it. We need to make sure it is NEVER censored or controlled in ANY way.)

I really hope I live to see a truly "new" world.

[ 19. October 2005, 20:05: Message edited by: interstellardave ]

Draco

19-10-05, 20:34

I still think the US should cease all military operations as well as all government funded aid programs.

Why i should be surprised?all dictators are brave when they are in lead and just pathetic cowards,after they loosing it! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/censored.gif

T.Onix

19-10-05, 21:41

My questionto this topic is:
If he had pleaded guilty? what would his sentence be?
As he pleaded innocent, and he's found guilty, what would his sentence be?

(off with his head!!!!)

nikos

20-10-05, 14:31

HALLO Capt. Murphy!

Just to remind you that the help us gave to saddam was a little after he attacked with chemical weapons against iran![a few millions people died by them!]
One of the us officials who met saddam,was james ramsfeld!
SO Then saddam,WAS OK to use chemicals against people,because he attacked to homeini's regime,us dont like at all!
This hypocritic politics usa govs use,make me feel that for some reason,theire motives to attack now iraq,was not the liberation of iraq,or to find chemicals in iraq,but only the reason that saddam gave oil contracts to others than usa-uk companies! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

For the same reason usa stop to support noriega in panama![he was "ok",for so many years, but suddenly he became a "bad dictator",when he refuse to sign the contract for panama's canal!] http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

Capt. Murphy

20-10-05, 15:12

Originally posted by nikos:
HALLO Capt. Murphy!

...This hypocritic politics usa govs use, make me feel that for some reason their motives to attack iraq now was not for the liberation of iraq or to find chemicals in iraq, but only the reason that saddam gave oil contracts to others than usa-uk companies! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif Nikos http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif . You forgot to mention the support and aiding of terrorists. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

And contracts to U.S. and U.K. countries... Now 'U.S. companies' I've heard before. But 'U.K. companies'. That's a new one. At least: to me.

Nothing againts you personally Nikos but every time I hear someone mention the war was for Oil I have to shake my head in disgust at such foolishness. But I guess you'll believe whatever you so desperately want.

I read a column in the USA Today newspaper a few weeks back that talked about how the American money in Iraq is drying up. Yet how can that be if we're there leeching off the Oil supply of Iraq? :confused:

"Somebody" is either confused, got lied to, or is a complete idiot. "Somebody" being the person or organization that perpetuates dumb-f http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/censored.gif lies and anti-american propaganda like "the war is for oil".

As for the other stuff I didn't address: you'll have to forgive me. I'm very tired right now. Maybe someone else can pick up on what I (elected to) skip. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

History class always did a good job of putting me to sleep anyway. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif

Jacob x5

20-10-05, 18:59

After all the things Saddam has done to the Iraqies, you can't blame them for tearing down his statue and all that...I know Saddam is..not to put a too finer point on it..."not a very nice bloke" shall we say, http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif and he's going to get what's coming to him, I mean I think that for killing and torturing so many people and just being basically an insane person who didn't know what he was doing...I think he deserves being killed himself. Sorry but think of it this way - he has killed thousands of innocent people so you would think he'd deservere it himself.

nikos

21-10-05, 22:58

Yes captain murphy http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif ,i forgot to mention a lot of things!
Like supporting bin laden and his taliban against soviets,or contras in nikaragua[do you remember contrasgate/irangate?],or now ucka in albania[strange your gov please them to stop now but they still kills people,another ooooppsss sory?we didnt knew them sorry again?,everybody knew that most of them was criminals!]

Yes your gov spend a lot of money there,but this money are paid by your taxes,but the prophets goes to the huge pocket of the companies[yes uk,and spain,and italy companies and not only oil companies, there are a lot of think they will sell to iraq to help them to rebuild theire country,after the disaster they did!,why do you think they support you? for ethical reasons? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif
Silvio berluskoni[italian prime minister] is a big crook,i dont think he will follow you for anything else!The hungry wolf just smells blood!] :mad:
Also the companies will rule the country for decades so the prophet will cover up the expences soon!well us-uk etc.. finance advisers are the best in the world!they can count better than us!and ofcource they dont count the cost in human lives,thats for free!who can ask them why they leave 2000 young americans to die?noone!the same way noone paid for the lost of so many thousands young americans in vietnam!

Also i got nothing in person with you,in the contrary i admire your courage to support your country so passionally,something i always do when it is necessary,but in that case you are confused,because noone here mixed up your country,your nation your people,with this bunch of criminals they drive you to another vietnam[at least in ethical part, us-uk already loose this war]!

Well i am quite sure you elected to skip,things that you dont know,because its a little difficult to be known inside usa,but unfortunately are very well known outside!and you know we knew that in greece,a country who always use usa mass media for infos,do you realise what is written from other origins? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Unfortunately captain the one who sleeps in history class lessons,will always sleep as well! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

crux2

21-10-05, 23:09

Damn straight, interstellardave!

Capt. Murphy

24-10-05, 16:11

Originally posted by nikos:
Unfortunately captain the one who sleeps in history class lessons,will always sleep as well! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif Aw, how sweet. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif My first death threat. :D