I thought it would be great to have a thread for our "gentle discipline" ideas.

We were at a playdate and the 2 year old son of the host kept running up behind Leela and pushing her over, as she was just walking around the room. And then he'd laugh and yell "SILLY!!!" His mom grabbed Leela and made a huge fuss about how she was okay and poor baby and tried to make him say sorry (which he wouldn't do). I asked her about it (in part, because I'm not thrilled about making a huge fuss about how Leela was hurt when she isn't crying and not upset) and she said that the thing to do when your kid hurts another kid is to ignore your kid and give attention to the kid who was hurt, but that doesn't seem intuitive to me. I understand that all kids go through this, so I'm not making the mom wrong, but I was wondering what you thought was the right thing to do.

Also, a 3 year old tried to kick Leela in the head at our BBW meeting, right in front of me and his mom, and his mom basically told him "We don't hit," had him say sorry and then go play in another part of the room.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Both of those seem like reasonable alternatives to me. The first idea doesn't give attention to the bad behavior, which is often what encourages the bad behavior to continue, like saying bad words. The second idea is straight and to the point without making too much fuss about the bad behavior and avoids any further potential kicking.

I think this depends on the kid and their personality. Both methods seem reasonable and may work.

I'm an explainer and that works well with my kids. I'd ask them how it would feel if someone pushed them/etc and when they said bad, I'd have them check on her and ask if she's okay and say sorry. Neither of my kids are/were rough but Silas does hug with too much excitement sometimes and this is how I handle it. It has stopped it (in the situation) so far, but he's still working on realizing that smaller kids can't catch huge hugs like adults and big kids can.

I just don't think it makes sense for another mom to run over and comfort my child while making a lot of noise about how hurt she is when she isn't even crying or upset. It seems confusing to Leela and almost like our two styles are conflicting, because what I do when she falls etc, is not make a huge fuss about it. If she cries, I ask her if she has an "ouch" and then give her a cuddle and move on. If she bites someone then I remove her, I say "we don't bite" and then redirect her. I wouldn't grab someone else's kid and make a huge fuss about comforting them. Does that seem unreasonable of me?

I think it makes sense to focus on your child, explain what is going on and have your child make amends.

I would love hearing how other parents handle gentle discipline, because obvs we're never going to spank her, but there are so many conflicting things out there. For example, on one of my parenting boards, people agreed that you shouldn't pull your baby off when s/he bites and walk away, because you're abandoning them and that isn't right. But I've done that, mostly to show that biting isn't going to be tolerated. And because sometimes I just need her to ramp down and could benefit from a breather myself.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

making a lot of noise about how hurt she is when she isn't even crying or upset.

would bother me (though probably not enough to ask her not to do it).i guess what it comes down to is that you are each trying to do something for your own kids. i wouldn't make a big deal about it, Leela comes into contact with this one person rarely, right?

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 amPosts: 8120Location: United States of New England

Tofulish wrote:

I just don't think it makes sense for another mom to run over and comfort my child while making a lot of noise about how hurt she is when she isn't even crying or upset. It seems confusing to Leela and almost like our two styles are conflicting, because what I do when she falls etc, is not make a huge fuss about it. If she cries, I ask her if she has an "ouch" and then give her a cuddle and move on. If she bites someone then I remove her, I say "we don't bite" and then redirect her. I wouldn't grab someone else's kid and make a huge fuss about comforting them. Does that seem unreasonable of me?

.

i will preface this by saying i dont have any children yet but i would too be not happy with someone making a huge fuss over my kid when my kid was totally fine. to me it might actually at some point teach Leela that she SHOULD be making a fuss even though she is fine.oh wait that kid just did something to me i need to freakout cause then i get lots of attention.

i do see where the other parent is coming from in terms of what to do with HER kid. her kid does something unacceptable and the act gets no attention and instead the other child gets LOTS of attention. i see how that could work for her kid but for your kid i think like you said it can be confusing.

i think the telling the child that is wrong and we dont behave that way and redirecting sounds like the best way to go about it......but again i have no experience with this yet so this is just what i think i would do.

I have no idea how this translates to parenting, but I can say that in the classroom, ignoring bad behavior DOES NOT WORK as a general rule, especially if that behavior is recurrent (there are a few occasions where it works, but it would not ever be a general principle for me). Kids want limits and they want authority figures to set those limits. When you ignore their behavior, they feel like they got away with it, and that feels BAD to them, not good. They will try harder and harder to find the limits by acting out in bigger ways. To me, gentle discipline doesn't mean no discipline.

I hope the classroom setting is a useful guide to me, because I know it well! The only thing that has consistently worked for me in that setting is providing clear rules/guidelines and the consequences of following/not following them, having lots of structure so kids always know what to expect next (and have less down time for getting into idle trouble), heaping praise on good behavior, and responding to bad behavior swiftly and decisively, without letting it become a distraction from an otherwise good situation (sometimes that means silently writing a kid's name on the board or changing the card under her name from green to yellow - no conversation required). It would obviously take more energy than I have to run my life the way I run a classroom (as evidenced by the fact that my daughter has no schedule at all), but if I can bring a little bit of that to bear in my life, I bet it would be useful.

I don't know if there's really any disciplining you can do with a 1-year-old. The only "wrong" thing Malka does is occasionally bite, and she does seem to have some control over it (she does test nips on our clothing usually, but occasionally really bites us hard). It's obviously unfair to discipline over a behavior that a child clearly can't control. When she bites the only thing I do is put her down away from me, often saying nothing at all, sometimes saying "no biting." That's enough to make her hysterical. I'm obviously not abandoning her, but she gets that whatever just happened wasn't good. I think it's a little silly to be worried the kid thinks you're abandoning her if you put her down and walk a little ways away. *That's* the punishment. You're showing disappointment and disapproval, not abandonment.

I think "we don't bite" is kind of funny language. I'm just imagining the toddler's thoughts, "Clearly we DO bite, lady, what are you on?"

Sven is only nine months, so all my reading about gentle discipline with my *own* child is all theory at this point and I would never be so bold as to offer this advice as gospel. :) However, I'm actually observing and using this kind of stuff a lot with *other* people's toddlers and older kids now that we're going to attachment parenting meetings and meetups with lots of kids of different ages. The conflict resolution scripts usually go something like this:

Mom of "aggressor" after making sure other child is okay: "Oh! Look at Leela's face; she's so sad. Hitting hurts! It's okay to be mad, but it's not okay to hit. Is there something we can do to help her feel better?"

If the kid isn't old enough or emotionally ready to offer an apology, people model one: "Leela, I'm so sorry that Sven hit you. He was upset and forgot to use his words. We hope you are feeling better now."

Then attention is refocused on their child, and the parents empathize with him try to get to the bottom of his emotional state and what led to his outburst: "You were so mad. You really wanted Leela's toy. Maybe next time you can use your words or ask me for help."

I'm not fan of forcing apologies, and I get really uncomfortable when other people force their child to apologize to me. I would rather model empathy and apologize for my kid until they truly understand how to empathize with the other child, rather than learning that you can apologize and not mean it and that will smooth everything over. I know this is a thing that parents tend to disagree on, though!

I also wanted to offer up this resource on gentle discipline and parenting if you haven't seen it: Aha! Parenting

Mom of "aggressor" after making sure other child is okay: "Oh! Look at Leela's face; she's so sad. Hitting hurts! It's okay to be mad, but it's not okay to hit. Is there something we can do to help her feel better?"

If the kid isn't old enough or emotionally ready to offer an apology, people model one: "Leela, I'm so sorry that Sven hit you. He was upset and forgot to use his words. We hope you are feeling better now."

Then attention is refocused on their child, and the parents empathize with him try to get to the bottom of his emotional state and what led to his outburst: "You were so mad. You really wanted Leela's toy. Maybe next time you can use your words or ask me for help."

This script makes me feel like "Gentle Discipline" is not for me. Toddlers don't have a bunch of words readily available and they don't just develop them by being told to use them. It's frustrating and kind of cruel to ask them to "use their words." The appropriate response is, "What words?" It would make more sense if you modeled the script for them and gave them the words they're supposed to use. This script also doesn't work for me because it's consequence based - i.e. your behavior is only bad because it hurt someone else. It's not okay to hit *even if the other kid is totally fine, even if the other kid didn't even notice it was happening.*

And what about the kid who's just being a jerk (i.e. pushing poor Leela down over and over again for no reason!)? Maybe there's no reason. Maybe he's just seeing if he can get away with it. Maybe he's just testing out his power in the situation.

Thanks for the feedback! It sounds like the mom is using the "script," but yeah, it doesn't really work for me to have someone grab my kid and make a huge fuss over her, to teach her kid a lesson. Not enough to say anything of course, but I don't foresee doing that on someone else's kid if Leela bites, or pushes or does any of the other things she is almost certain to do as she gets bigger.

In the GD books, they talk about the difference between punishment and consequences. A consequence is the natural result of your behavior, while the punishment is an adult using force or deprivation to artificially manipulate behavior. The idea is that it is ok to let your child feel the consequence - if you bite, then people move away from you, but not to punish.

I don't think kids are deliberately (they can't really deliberate) jerks at this age, but they clearly do develop problematic behaviors at some point, so I guess the idea is to teach and model healthy, constructive, appropriate aka non-jerk responses to and for them.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

I'd be irked at another mom making a big fuss over my kid when she wasn't upset.

I've not read much on Gentle Discipline, so I'm not sure how this fits in, but I agree with Ariann that totally ignoring bad behavior is just not a good option most of the time. Sure, you ignore a tantruming toddler, but if your kid is terrorizing another child, they most likely aren't going to stop just because you are ignoring them. One great tip another mom gave me is that when your kid is doing something they aren't supposed to do, it's pretty automatic to just yell "no", but instead it's better to tell them first what they should be doing instead, and then tell them what they aren't supposed to do. Toddlers will probably start to tune you out the moment you say no, so it's better to tell them something positive before you give the negative. For instance, we have a kid (about 20 months old) in our playgroup who is a hair-puller-- he gets so excited to see other kids that he grabs their hair, pulls, and won't let go. His mom immediately physically intervenes so he releases the other kid's hair, while telling him to be gentle to the other kids, that he should hug his friend instead, and that we don't pull hair. The positives first-- "Be gentle" and "Can you give Timmy a big hug?", then the negative-- "we don't pull hair". I like how she handles that.

I don't think giving attention to a kid that's hurt instead of a kid that did the hurting is ignoring the bad behavior and I think that it probably can be an effective method. I work with lots of kids (and adults) with behavioral issues and some clearly do better when certain bad behaviors are ignored. (Though that's not what happened in this case since Leela wasn't hurt...)

tofu, i can't stand it when parents do that. i feel like it is often done without any consideration as to why the child is actually showing the behavior. making a big fuss over an infant because a toddler pushed her? that is so pointless! the 2 year old isn't shoving to be mean or a bully. he's 2!! he's just experimenting. in my opinion, you apologize to the parent, check that the other kid is fine, and get your toddler out of shoving range for a bit. your kid is shoving because he's bored, or tired, or you're not paying attention to him, or he thinks it's a funny game. so just find something else for him to do for a bit, you know?

a good friend of mine has gotten really over the top with it lately. i mean her kid is a little older (almost 3) and so, now there is an ability to understand that hitting or hurting is bad, but there's still no real ability to control how he reacts when tired or out of sorts. his mom was doing that over the top apologizing and explaining and fussing when he was hitting people at playgroup. i wish she'd just apologized quickly and redirected him to something else, she totally made a younger baby cry after fussing over her after he'd shoved her.

i will say that from 2 and up, they do really quickly gain the language to express this sort of stuff. i do think it's a good idea to get into the habit of talking about your feelings and "using your words" (haha, so cliche). but you have to work first on giving them the words...

The more I think of it, the more it seems like making a huge fuss about the kid that got hurt is still creating a reaction and giving the behavior energy, even if in the moment you're not paying attention to the kid. I like the idea of a short apology and redirection. Leela has bitten other kids before (sorry Malka!), and I just apologize and give her something else to bite. At a year, that seems like the best bet, but its good to know that it works even as they get older.

I think as parents, we are terrified of "spoiling" our kid and not disciplining them so that they become horrible jerky brats whom no one likes. But there are also behaviors that they just can't help, and they're not doing it because they are bad or spoiled or naughty.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Mom of "aggressor" after making sure other child is okay: "Oh! Look at Leela's face; she's so sad. Hitting hurts! It's okay to be mad, but it's not okay to hit. Is there something we can do to help her feel better?"

If the kid isn't old enough or emotionally ready to offer an apology, people model one: "Leela, I'm so sorry that Sven hit you. He was upset and forgot to use his words. We hope you are feeling better now."

Then attention is refocused on their child, and the parents empathize with him try to get to the bottom of his emotional state and what led to his outburst: "You were so mad. You really wanted Leela's toy. Maybe next time you can use your words or ask me for help."

This script makes me feel like "Gentle Discipline" is not for me. Toddlers don't have a bunch of words readily available and they don't just develop them by being told to use them. It's frustrating and kind of cruel to ask them to "use their words." The appropriate response is, "What words?" It would make more sense if you modeled the script for them and gave them the words they're supposed to use. This script also doesn't work for me because it's consequence based - i.e. your behavior is only bad because it hurt someone else. It's not okay to hit *even if the other kid is totally fine, even if the other kid didn't even notice it was happening.*

And what about the kid who's just being a jerk (i.e. pushing poor Leela down over and over again for no reason!)? Maybe there's no reason. Maybe he's just seeing if he can get away with it. Maybe he's just testing out his power in the situation.

I would certainly never try to claim that the example I gave is the only way to gently discipline a child! I think the idea of "gentle discipline" encompasses a whole wide range of ways to express compassion for children's feelings. This was simply one interaction that I witnessed recently, and I was impressed that it addressed the behavior with empathy and understanding rather than shaming or punishment. And I may very well be doing the other parents a great disservice when I try to describe their parenting due to my own inexperience. I do agree that perhaps this example is geared toward older children and not the best when dealing with younger toddlers, however, I do think there is some value in giving names to their emotions, modeling how to recognize them, and encouraging children to attempt to find the language to express them in appropriate ways.

However, please feel free to laugh at me when Sven really gets into the thick of toddlerhood! :)

I am skeptical about all these theories, even the ones that make perfect sense. I think we overestimate our kids' degree of consistency and our own effect on our kids' behavior. An approach that works today for this kid might not work tomorrow (or even an hour from now). And I think except for genuine problems, kids will sort a lot of this stuff out for themselves. None of which is to say that I don't discipline my kid. Of course I do, but it's hard, and the rules (what works) seem to change all the time. And there are so many things you're trying to balance at all times. Knowing the right course of action is kind of a pipe dream. You end up taking your best shot and hoping it works out.

I also think that the distinction between "natural consequence" and "punishment" is way more arbitrary than a particular theory might make it seem. And I'm not convinced that really young kids can make any sense of the distinction, anyway. I hit someone and dad carried me away from there. Is that a "punishment" (parent doing something to me, imposing his will) or a "natural consequence" (when I hit people, we get separated so I can't do it anymore)? Expecting kids to interpret these things the same way we might is unrealistic

Sometimes the "natural consequence" is that Mom and Dad do this as a result. So don't do it, already!

I thought this post on the NYTimes' parenting blog was pretty timely. First few paragraphs:

Quote:

It was 2006. Winter, and I was picking up my oldest son, Sam, at preschool. My friend Laura and I were going to take our boys and our bundled up baby girls ice skating. The gear was packed, and the plans were made, and Sam was running wildly around the cloakroom, disregarding. again and again and again, my pleas that he put on his coat and his boots. I asked him. I asked him again. And again. And then—

“Sam, if you don’t put your boots on right now, we’re not going ice skating.” Sam blew past me, giggling infuriatingly, with no sign of slowing down. I was taking a deep breath to ask again when his preschool teacher, Karen, tapped me gently on the shoulder.

“You know you can’t go ice skating now, right?”

I looked at Sam, who was nowhere near his boots and coat. I looked at Laura, who shrugged. Sam laughed. I seem to recall squaring my shoulders.

“You’re right,” I said. “We’re not going.”

_________________Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bisque in space.

I thought this post on the NYTimes' parenting blog was pretty timely. First few paragraphs:

Quote:

It was 2006. Winter, and I was picking up my oldest son, Sam, at preschool. My friend Laura and I were going to take our boys and our bundled up baby girls ice skating. The gear was packed, and the plans were made, and Sam was running wildly around the cloakroom, disregarding. again and again and again, my pleas that he put on his coat and his boots. I asked him. I asked him again. And again. And then—

“Sam, if you don’t put your boots on right now, we’re not going ice skating.” Sam blew past me, giggling infuriatingly, with no sign of slowing down. I was taking a deep breath to ask again when his preschool teacher, Karen, tapped me gently on the shoulder.

“You know you can’t go ice skating now, right?”

I looked at Sam, who was nowhere near his boots and coat. I looked at Laura, who shrugged. Sam laughed. I seem to recall squaring my shoulders.

“You’re right,” I said. “We’re not going.”

Yup! I do this all of the time -- it feels like that anyway.

More like footie, I have used all of these techniques whenever they have worked. I also use a little frustrated murmuring once in awhile but I doubt that is technically discipline.

Nothing has helped me more than the book Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child, though. Mainly, it has helped me learn to breathe and remember that everybody makes mistakes; what my child does now probably won't make her a certain way too much later. If she's putting wood chips (I hate wood chips) in other people's hair, she probably won't be a jerk in the future. If I don't give her lots of love and voice -- on the other hand -- she won't do so hot. I just keep that at the top of my brain. And murmur and grumble a lot.

Sven is only nine months, so all my reading about gentle discipline with my *own* child is all theory at this point and I would never be so bold as to offer this advice as gospel. :) However, I'm actually observing and using this kind of stuff a lot with *other* people's toddlers and older kids now that we're going to attachment parenting meetings and meetups with lots of kids of different ages. The conflict resolution scripts usually go something like this:

Mom of "aggressor" after making sure other child is okay: "Oh! Look at Leela's face; she's so sad. Hitting hurts! It's okay to be mad, but it's not okay to hit. Is there something we can do to help her feel better?"

If the kid isn't old enough or emotionally ready to offer an apology, people model one: "Leela, I'm so sorry that Sven hit you. He was upset and forgot to use his words. We hope you are feeling better now."

Then attention is refocused on their child, and the parents empathize with him try to get to the bottom of his emotional state and what led to his outburst: "You were so mad. You really wanted Leela's toy. Maybe next time you can use your words or ask me for help."

I'm not fan of forcing apologies, and I get really uncomfortable when other people force their child to apologize to me. I would rather model empathy and apologize for my kid until they truly understand how to empathize with the other child, rather than learning that you can apologize and not mean it and that will smooth everything over. I know this is a thing that parents tend to disagree on, though!

I also wanted to offer up this resource on gentle discipline and parenting if you haven't seen it: Aha! Parenting

this is basically the kind of parenting i am trying to use with my four year old. it seems pretty effective. my boy is very understanding **usually** so i don't know if it's the rightness of the parenting style, or whether it's just right for him, but it feels really nice to do. if in doubt, a kid acting badly usually needs a hug.

I'm kind of struggling with this a little bit myself - I read "Love and Logic" on someone's (Jewbacca's?) suggestion, and a lot of it made sense but I don't think it would work on a really stubborn and intelligent kid. Because at some point the kid's going to realize that it's a lopsided equation: she can make your life more miserable than you can make hers.

But anyway, right now we're at the stage where the main difficulty is in playground/gym situations. I wouldn't classify Violet as a bad kid at all, but she's extremely active, and can physically hold her own with most of the kids at the upper end of the age spectrum in her class (22 months-ish, she's 14 now and looks older than she is because she's tall and skinny). She'll occasionally do something like grab a big ball or toy that another kid is going towards or playing with, or try to join them on a big piece of equipment capable of holding more than one kid, but some of the kids hate to be on things with someone else, even if this leads to absurdities like sitting on a seesaw alone. Anyway, she's not really trying to be a jerk, and doesn't really understand that this is in any way wrong, but it seems a lot of the time like parents expect me to do something about it/stop it. And so I trail after her giving speeches about not barging in and sharing, but it seems sort of silly. When I really feel like she's in the wrong (like on car ramp day - she'll refuse to get off the car after her turn or will cry until she gets another turn and attempt to run past the kids waiting in line, at which point I usually take her to a quiet corner of the room and don't let her have any more car ramp time until she calms her butt down or it's put away for the day)

I'm not sure if I'm in the wrong here or they are. I'd really love a baby gym "no blood no foul" class where we basically intervene minimally unless someone's at risk of ending up in an emergency room, but that doesn't seem to exist. I get the distinct impression that parents are a lot more INVOLVED in sorting out interpersonal issues among kids than they were with my generation. On the one hand, I get that we may have been a little too Lard of the flies about bullying and whatnot, on the other hand, I have no desire to spend the next 17 years preventing my kid from being a crasshole every minute of the day.

I'm kind of struggling with this a little bit myself - I read "Love and Logic" on someone's (Jewbacca's?) suggestion, and a lot of it made sense but I don't think it would work on a really stubborn and intelligent kid. Because at some point the kid's going to realize that it's a lopsided equation: she can make your life more miserable than you can make hers.

The idea behind love and logic is that if you treat your child with respect, she won't want to make your life miserable. Don't Lard your power over your child, and your child won't be as motivated to make a power grab. Give your child plenty of appropriate times and places where she gets to make decisions, and she won't be as likely to try to force her way into being the decision maker. It doesn't work 100% of the time, but nothing works 100% of the time.

I don't use L&L or any other approach exactly by the book, but I use the general philosophy. My kids are 2.5 and almost 5 and so far they are pretty polite, well behaved little monkeys. My DD has autism, and the associated language delays can make some of the L&L methods inappropriate for her, so I have found my own way.

Oh, and a note on ignoring behaviors. I have found ignoring to be extremely effective at curbing some behaviors and not others. Basically, if the behavior is attention seeking, ignoring works perfectly. If the behavior produces a different reward, then not so much. Also, you have to ignore the child, not the behavior. When my DD engages in an inappropriate attention seeking behavior, I act as though she is not in the room, and the second the behavior stops, I can see her again. However the proper way to ignore behavior would never work in a classroom setting. So I think what does and does not work in a classroom does not have a one to one correlation to what works for a parent at home.

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 amPosts: 8120Location: United States of New England

im bumping this thread up because although i wouldn't say we are having a "problem" BP is definitely testing her limits and the kid is too damn smart for me and im at a loss.

we've been really lucky in that for the most part BP is generally a well behaved kid. if you tell her not to do something typically she will stop. she's not a whirling dervish of a toddler and doesnt get into stuff. so i cant say we've "disciplined" her much because she hasnt pushed us. when she has temper tantrums it's more about trying to calm her down and understand what's going on and then finding something worthy of distracting her away from being upset.

my biggest issue with her is when she doesnt want to do something she will.not.do.it.period.end.of.story. there is nothing on the face of the planet that will get her to do it. i get to the point where i would even gladly bribe her even though i dont really like the idea of bribing your kid. i feel like in theory i really like the idea of gentle discipline but in practice for a 2 year old it's crepe. i dont think 2 year olds are old enough to understand having a lengthy conversation about your feelings and decision making processes. they do stuff because they are 2.

for example as probably everyone knows her teeth are not great so afer she eats she needs to drink some water and we need to wipe her teeth down with a spiffies (a nifty little xylitol wipe for those who havent been following the dental thread). USUALLY she is good about the spiffies, its grape flavored and sweet. she's not 100% great about the water but if i can get her to do the spiffies i dont care much. this week her teeth have really been bothering her. tooth brushing has been a nightmare. this morning she wouldnt drink water and then she wouldnt let me do a spiffies. she's 800x more horrible for me than anyone else and usually it's just me and her alone in the house. she ran down the hall and was like hiding in the corner of a room and refused to let me do it. i told her it wasnt an option and we have to keep the teeth clean, etc etc etc we've had this conversation 1000x. i just needed to do it quick so we could keep the teeth healthy and i was sorry her mouth hurt but i would be gentle. blah blah blah. she opened up a crack and i went to do it and she bit me. she has bitten me a few various times in the past several weeks when she gets really worked up and upset. i told her no and that biting me was totally unacceptable and it hurt mama when she bit me and it wasnt nice. i told her she had 2 more times to let me try to do the spiffies and if not we would have to use the tooth brush (at least then she couldnt bite me). she wouldnt let me do it so i repeated myself that this was her last chance before i got the toothbrush out. she finally let me do it (i couldnt believe it!). i thanked her for making a good decision and letting me wipe her teeth and i gave her a hug and a kiss.

fast forward a bit later and i needed to change her diaper. nope. not gonna happen. she ran down the hallway again so i was like whatever im not getting into this fight. a little while later i tried again and picked her up and brought her to the couch as she screamed at me. she rolled off the couch (she's too strong now to hold her down and with the cloth diapers i cant really physically hold her down and change her diapers i need both my hands) and ran back down the hallway. so basically for an hour she refused to let me change her diaper and i went off and left her to amuse herself while i did other things. a couple times she came to me and wanted to do somethign like she wanted me to turn the songs on on one of her toys and i told her after we changed her diaper we could turn the songs on and if she wanted me to play dinos with her i would we just needed to change the diaper. nope.she knows there is no real reprecussion to not changing her diaper other than sitting in a wet diaper which obviously doesnt bother her. she went off and amused herself so i feel like i was just teaching her she doesnt need to listen to me but i wasnt going to get into a screaming match about changing her diaper. i can almost see the allure of the whole time out thing but i honestly dont think time out really teaches them anything. i mean you cant tell a 2 year old to sit there and think about what they did. they dont understand.i told her multiple times Sue (our OT) was coming over and Sue always has fun toys and she couldnt play with any of Sue's toys until she let me change her diaper. i offered her a million different things she could hold and look at while i changed her diaper but nope. not gonna happen. Sue shows up and comes inside and i tell BP she needs her diaper changed before anything happens and she walks over to the couch (where we change diapers) and let's me change her diaper without a peep of protest like she is some little perfect angel of well behavedness. (ARGH!!!!)of course she had pooped at some point and had been sitting on the poop for so long it was basically a pancake and i had to basically peel it off the diaper so i could flush it. good times.

when she gets really upset or has a temper tantrum i try to get her to tell me why she is so upset but she almost never will. even though she is very verbal i dont think she can yet articulate what she's feeling. i havent actually read any gentle discipline books or anything but i feel like the main thing about it is talking about feelings with your kids and showing empathy which is great and everything but if your kid is too young to understand it's not helpful. i can ask her questions about how she's feeling but sometimes i get the idea that im just planting ideas in her head (do your teeth hurt? YEAH does your foot hurt? YEAH does your fingernail hurt? YEAH)

i dunno. how do people get 2 year olds to do what you want? (HAHAHA)

right now i think we are in a stage where consistancy is super key so i guess maybe that it is just to suffer through it and be consistant. ive cut way back on nursing and only let her nurse when she wakes up, before nap, after nap, and before bed (and during the night too i havent gotten that far yet) and it's been a struggle but we've made it almost a full week and ive stuck to it. there's certain times of the day (11ish in the morning and dinnertime) that get really dicey and she get super whiny and clingy and sounds like a broken record (WANT BOO WANT BOO WANT BOO) and pulls out all her tricks (WANT BOO GONNA GET IT JUST TWO MINUTES NEED BOO) but eventually she gives up.

the teeth cleaning thing just sucks because she has so much negative stuff associated with her mouth and because her teeth are poor quality i think they take extra long to break through and she wont chew anything to relieve the pain so she is just miserable FOREVER when teeth are coming in.

ive also been trying to check my own behavior to try to model good behavior. i know my whole damn day is one big giant ball of frustration and i SIGH constantly and sometimes get snappy BECAUSE I CANT HANDLE IT ANYMORE so ive been trying to keep that in check so im not teaching her that's how you deal with frustration.

So first thing, I think you need to adjust your definition of a success. Both of those stories, the teeth wipes and the diaper, count as success for me. You laid out clear expectations, clear consequences, stuck with them, and eventually did what you needed to do. No one had a meltdown or lost their shiitake. Victory! The thing is, when you say, "You can't play with toys until you have a new diaper," she legitimately gets to choose no toys. Which she did for a while. Now if her little bum is sore from poop being on it too long, I might let her know that's why. Something like, "I'm sorry your tushy hurts. That's what happens when you sit in poop too long. I hope you let me change your diaper faster tomorrow." You need to help her connect those dots.

As for the talking through stuff, it is totally unreasonable to expect her to verbalize her feelings, and it is super duper unreasonable to expect her to do it when she is upset. When people get upset, frontal lobe functioning decreases as does language processing. Since two year olds aren't great at that anyway, they go from fine to banshee with few stops in between. I always saved talking for later as much as possible. In the moment it was as few words as could possibly convey what I needed to say. And even after, it was mostly me talking to model the words rather than them being able to tell me. Like, "You were really sad when I needed to wipe your teeth. I know your teeth hurt, and you felt scared that the wipes would hurt. I'm sorry it's so scary." That's a good time to talk about solutions too. Not when she is upset, but later, when she is calm. Maybe she could hold your hand while you wipe so if it hurts she can pull your hand out of her mouth. The feeling like she has some control might help her be more willing. And she might be receptive to a suggestion like that when she is calm and not facing getting her teeth wiped.

BTW, my kids are now 5.5 and 8, and I still don't talk to them much when they are mad. Upset gets as few words as possible, and the longer talk and processing comes later when things are calm. It is a strategy that has worked well for us, so I don't plan to change. :)

^^very well said on all of it. We used to have a big stop sign in our house when our kids were about that age that said HALT: am I Hungry Angry Lonely Tired, and we applied it to all of us, and didn't do anything if those needed to be addressed. No attempts at talking or reason or anything. Even today, we find ourselves using it, and we are all (mostly) adults!

It sounds to me like the kid is (nonvegan alert) getting your goat. With good reason, you're worried about her teeth, etc.But if you can keep yourself calm and just pretend to shrug and say "you want to sit in pee? well, when you are tired of sitting in pee you can come and I'll change your diaper." and walk away.

Our circumstances made us rely on natural consequences. Kid doesn't want to eat or to get changed- they will eventually have a natural consequence, sore butt or hunger. I will let time and nature do the disciplining, and leave the tiny remaining sanity I have for other uses, like having fun with the kid. And the kid gets to see that not everything is a big power struggle.

And LisaP- you have had a tough row to hoe so far. I found that from this age it just got more and more fun. Sure it has its bumps and such but there are some wonderful moments too. Hang in there!