How is what I wrote pathetic? I do feel sorry for people that let their education level blind them to the real truth. The only truth they will ever let themselves see is the truth that they can find in some lab experiment. If that sentiment is pathetic, then, I guess I am pathetic.

I understand why you believe what you believe. I don't agree with that, but I understand and respect that.

Calling someone blind and prideful, just because they do not share your beliefs, is IMO pretty poor form. It is, IMO, the start of intolerance. That's the bit I had a problem with.

That's what you call "pot calling kettle", UK.

I have to laugh when people say I'm too informed to undertand the truth. That is so literally insane.... I'm "all-in" in this particular poker game.

August 18th, 2012, 12:55 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Pablo wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

Quote:

And in re: equal treatment of women -"More equal" doesn't mean more moral. Women are at an all-time low on the moral compass. They're cheating more on their spouses, having sex with their students, getting divorced for younger men (this use to be a staple of mid-life crisis men, but it's becoming a staple of mid-life crisis women too), seeking money over love, seeking superficial looks over long-term stability... IMO society is going down hill in a big, big way.

Im trying to stay out of the theology discussions for a while but i simply could not agree with this statment more!

You can agree with this statement, but it has nothing to do with the passage I was talking about. It was about how men would gain control over "gullible women" - it had nothing to do with the morals of women so the whole point is off base. Now if Timohty was saying that the morals of women would sink - then we would be onto something.

Women are less gullible than ever. In fact, they have equal rights and are more on equal grounds with men than ever. Now, this likely helps lead to the moral decay that you chipped in with but that isn't the circumstance Timothy claims would be a sign of the "end of days".

First of all, the passage never referred to ALL women as gullible. Secondly, the phrase immediately afterward ('who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires') describes what WJB was saying pretty much spot on.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 18th, 2012, 11:52 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

This seemed to tie in with what M2K was saying...

God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 18th, 2012, 1:19 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

You guys aren't getting something very important:

Me (and some others): "I don't believe what you do. It is unsupported, clearly draws many things from earlier mythology, and is third-party hearsay that has been translated many times. Please don't quote your belief to defend your belief - that is circular, and I don't look at the Bible as remotely being a source of truth."

Reponse: "But the Bible says, _____".

Me: "That's like me reading a book, watching a movie or playing some fantasy game that you don't play, and quoting from the rules of the game why you're doing or thinking things wrong. You might as well be quoting Yoda or something"

Response: "But the Bibile says, _____".

Me: "Sigh..."

August 20th, 2012, 8:48 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

I'm just curious about this circular theory...

Why is it perfectly acceptable to deny what is said in the Bible because you don't recognize the authority of the Bible, but yet, I'm a fool because I refuse to recognize the "authority" of man made, man discovered, man taught, man investigated science?

From what I can perceive, you have NOT done the original research on much of what you believe. By research I mean, actually participated in the research yourself, you may have done so but I'm not sure. Anyway, so the evidence you provide or quote is based off someone else's writings, and yet I'm supposed to believe that?

Would that be considered a double standard?

Just so you are aware, and others as well, your belief in the authenticity of the Bible is not required for it to be authentic. However, if you truly wish to be knowlegable, and if you truly wish to believe if there is a God, you'll find Him in His word. Here is the words of Peter, one who walked WITH JESUS, and is quoting 1st person experience.

2 Peter 1:16-21, "For WE WERE NOT MAKING UP CLEVER STORIES when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. WE SAW his majestic splendor WITH OUR OWN EYES when he received honor and glory from God the Father. (Matthew 17 the transfiguration of Jesus Christ) The voice from the jamestic glory of God said to him, "This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy." WE OURSELVES HEARD that voice from heaven when WE WERE WITH HIM ON THE HOLY MOUNTAIN. Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place - until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. Above all you must realize that NO PROPHECY in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy SPirit, and they spoke from God."

I appreciate your point of view, but it's just that a point of view. And with all of my heart, I have only tried to reveal what I HAVE researched through toil, struggle, experience, and faith, and that is that God is real, and He wishes to have a relationship with everyone. The probelm is that we are too deceived by all of the chatter, and can't see the truth because of the deception.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 20th, 2012, 10:00 am

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

Because anything I've cited (or others have, as far as I've seen) as being scientific would be tested & verified independently, and again & again. It isn't "someone said...".

Hearsay is hearsay. When someone says they've seen something with their own eyes, it is still hearsay. Proof-tested is proof tested (that means it is supported by data & anyone else can duplicate the results).

This is not a double-standard. Not remotely. It is not a point of view. It is "what has been proved", vs "what people have said a long time ago and cannot ever be proved". There have been a lot of people called "prophets" over time - and the vast majority of them you give no credit to. I share your opinion of those, plus add your prophet/story-tellers to my list of people who do not deserve to be believed.

The term "prophet" from way back then is very well translated as "poet" ... and for good reason.

Peter was a man, James, John, Jesus, they were men, but because they are from antiquity, they don't count eh? Tutenkahmen, Cleopatra, they were people too, in fact, from right around the same age in Biblical times, but they didn't exist either right?

Here's the rub, the evidence you seek (or maybe not) is SPIRITUAL evidence and it can not be discerned without the SPIRIT. So it goes back to my original post in that if you want to see how good the water is, you have to get in. You can call it whatever you wish, but it's still true. What you are doing in justifying your actions, and banking your whole future on the documents and studies of other men who are quite possibly short sighted as well.

You used your back ground with the Catholic faith to justify why you've run totally in the opposite direction, instead of using that same drive to chase after and seek God for yourself. This has long been a point of contention of mine with the Catholic faith, the do not teach the RELATIONSHIP, they teach the Ritual, and so disenfranchise their followers. I have much more I could say on this, but I really don't wish to pick a fight on religion, that's a family squabble.

Eric, if you REALLY wanted to know the truth, the truth would set you free, but you have to start from square one! But I believe you will not do that at this point, because that will cause your entire belief system to crumble and that can be devastating. So I'll continue with what I've done and that's to carry you before Christ, again, the results are up to him, but I sincerely hope and pray that some day, we will be able to discuss this on the right side of eternity.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 20th, 2012, 1:29 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WarEr - Not intended to sidetrack from the current discussion, but I do have what I hope to be a relatively quick question for you.

Quote:

According to your beliefs, humans are created in God's image, correct? Considering this, wouldn't humans also be gods? (This is perhaps more of a spiritual question...)

Thanks in advance.

Peace brother.

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

August 20th, 2012, 1:56 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

I.E. wrote:

Because anything I've cited (or others have, as far as I've seen) as being scientific would be tested & verified independently, and again & again. It isn't "someone said...".

You mean the same scientists that have postulated multiple things, have had their points of view backed by other scientists, only to be proven wrong...yet again by science?

And who sets up the tests to prove the information is true? Tests and their results can be set up for success just as easily as for failure.

And while you are quick to disregard eye witness testimony as "hearsay", it is often used successfully in court to prove or disprove someone's innocence, is it not? I'd say that is pretty powerful "hearsay".

Listen, I've posted multiple times on my feelings about the Bible, and what it represents to me. But I am not going to dismiss what others believe because I don't believe that way. At the same time, I am not going to accept everything laid out by science because they say "I've tested it and it's true, here's the data." Well, I can say something is true and set up a test to make it seem so, and provide that data as proof. But as long as I'm the one dictating the terms of the test, it's inputs and expected outputs, then of course it will seem I am correct.

Science is not an exact science all the time.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 20th, 2012, 2:03 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

TheRealWags wrote:

WarEr - Not intended to sidetrack from the current discussion, but I do have what I hope to be a relatively quick question for you.

Quote:

According to your beliefs, humans are created in God's image, correct? Considering this, wouldn't humans also be gods? (This is perhaps more of a spiritual question...)

Thanks in advance.

Peace brother.

When you look in a mirror, you see an image of yourself. Does that make that image you? Fraternal twins can often be portrayed in the same singular image, but it does not make them the same. An image is, by definition, a representation of a person or thing, NOT a duplicate.

Hope that helps.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 20th, 2012, 2:07 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

m2karateman wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

WarEr - Not intended to sidetrack from the current discussion, but I do have what I hope to be a relatively quick question for you.

Quote:

According to your beliefs, humans are created in God's image, correct? Considering this, wouldn't humans also be gods? (This is perhaps more of a spiritual question...)

Thanks in advance.

Peace brother.

When you look in a mirror, you see an image of yourself. Does that make that image you? Fraternal twins can often be portrayed in the same singular image, but it does not make them the same. An image is, by definition, a representation of a person or thing, NOT a duplicate.

Hope that helps.

When I look in the mirror, I see a god, then again I am considered a heathen in your belief-system....

Thx for the response.Peace, love and light

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

August 20th, 2012, 2:11 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

TheRealWags wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

WarEr - Not intended to sidetrack from the current discussion, but I do have what I hope to be a relatively quick question for you.

Quote:

According to your beliefs, humans are created in God's image, correct? Considering this, wouldn't humans also be gods? (This is perhaps more of a spiritual question...)

Thanks in advance.

Peace brother.

When you look in a mirror, you see an image of yourself. Does that make that image you? Fraternal twins can often be portrayed in the same singular image, but it does not make them the same. An image is, by definition, a representation of a person or thing, NOT a duplicate.

Hope that helps.

When I look in the mirror, I see a god, then again I am considered a heathen in your belief-system....

Thx for the response.Peace, love and light

If you think you're a god, then so be it.

And just for the record, my belief system isn't quite the same as W4C's or Billy's.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

August 20th, 2012, 2:28 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

m2karateman wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

WarEr - Not intended to sidetrack from the current discussion, but I do have what I hope to be a relatively quick question for you.

Quote:

According to your beliefs, humans are created in God's image, correct? Considering this, wouldn't humans also be gods? (This is perhaps more of a spiritual question...)

Thanks in advance.

Peace brother.

When you look in a mirror, you see an image of yourself. Does that make that image you? Fraternal twins can often be portrayed in the same singular image, but it does not make them the same. An image is, by definition, a representation of a person or thing, NOT a duplicate.

Hope that helps.

When I look in the mirror, I see a god, then again I am considered a heathen in your belief-system....

Thx for the response.Peace, love and light

If you think you're a god, then so be it.

And just for the record, my belief system isn't quite the same as W4C's or Billy's.

I realized after posting that it might have come across rather harsh, for this I apologize.

That said and please pardon my ignorance on this, but doesn't all of Christianity and Jewish based (read Old Testament) believe / teach 'No false gods before me (God)'? If so, then please explain where your belief system differs from theirs or any other Christian. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: For the record, I believe we are ALL gods.

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

August 20th, 2012, 2:34 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

WOW, powerful question and thanks for asking Wags.

In my belief system we are created in the image of God. Image being the key word. M2K was pretty close to it, but I think you have to look a little deeper.

Male: Our characteristics that make us male are sturdy, muscular, able to endure difficult tasks. Our emotional intellect is not equal to that of the female. Having said that...

Female: Also a sturdy creation the embodies the beauty of mankind, but also has the emotional strength to guide, love, teach, and so on.

I'm probably not doing a very good job of explaining this but I would like to point you to Scripture.

Genesis 1:26 - 27, "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, to be LIKE ourselves. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground." So God created man in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

In not trying to add to or take away from, God created humans, male and female he created them. To the male he gave those attributes, genetics if you will, of being male. For the female, he gave her all of the attributes of love, beauty, romance and so on. So that when the two become one flesh, they feel "complete." Two halves become a whole.

This can lead into the homosexuality discussion because in it you can see how the propensity for sin corrupted the original way. If you look above where I posted from Romans, you'll see where WE became inflamed with lust and corrupted thinking.

The only way we become "gods" is when we accept the relationship with Jesus, and we become his sons and daughters. That doesn't mean that I become a god in the hollywood sense, with magical powers, it means I become a part of the family, brother to Jesus and so on. It can get deep but I hope that helps a little.

As for having no other gods before him, a god is an idol or anything that takes precedence over him. What do we worship? Self, money, power, prestige, things, people, relationships (insert your own idol here). I personally have struggled with selfishness and have battled that god many times. Through the power of the Lord I have been able to see my actions, repent of them, and then choose to take a different course. That was why yours and Pablo's statements were so hurtful. Neither of you know my life, although Pablo has more access than others. I live to serve, I live to help others, I choose to sacrifice my time, efforts, blood, sweat, tears, and so on for the sake of others, because the Lord has freed me and I choose to use my freedom to help others. So to be called hypocritical really cut, because it wasn't a fair statement. Don't worry though, I've chosen to forgive you both regardless of whether or not it was offered, because I DEEPLY desire for you to know the Lord as I do. I can't explain why I've come to this position, I just have, and so I choose to be obedient to the mission laid before me, and that is why I carry y'all to the feet. Again, hope that helps.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 20th, 2012, 3:31 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Questions about the Bible, Jesus and Christianity.

TheRealWags wrote:

I realized after posting that it might have come across rather harsh, for this I apologize.

That said and please pardon my ignorance on this, but doesn't all of Christianity and Jewish based (read Old Testament) believe / teach 'No false gods before me (God)'? If so, then please explain where your belief system differs from theirs or any other Christian. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: For the record, I believe we are ALL gods.

No worries Wags. I didn't think your statement was harsh in any regard.

When I said that Billy and W4C and how they believe is different than me, allow me to explain:

I am Christian in the fact that I believe in the God of the Bible. I also believe Christ was his son, an Earthly representation of God's spirit, and love for all mankind.

However, I am not inclined to believe all aspects laid forth in the Bible as being "gospel", for lack of a better word. I believe the Bible to be a very good set of guidelines (New Testament) on how to live a life that the fathers of Christianity would like. I believe that the stories were written for that express purpose. I believe the stories within the Old Testament speak of various things that helped create Christianity, but don't literally believe every single word. However, I also have to question why some books were left out of the Bible, particularly it seems, the ones that saw things from a different perspective than the rest. I know that reasons have been given extensively as to why they were left out, but I am not so quick to accept that reasoning as completely with merit.

I also feel that those who use the Bible as a device of prayer are, at that moment, putting it in place of God, and therefore are committing idolatry. That is my belief, and I don't expect anyone else to share it if they don't wish to. I am also not fond of praying to the cross, saints, using a rosary, or many other things associated with various Christian religions. They are symbols of Christianity, but should not be used as tools of worship.

I also believe God has a bigger propensity for forgiveness than what some Christians believe. I think there is a big difference between questioning His existence, and outright rejecting His existence. God gave us freewill of thought for a reason. Was that part of His plan? I suspect so. I think He wants us to question, so that we do dig deeper for the truth in many different things, not just those regarding religion.

As for the God creating man in His own image, that is really a pretty vague statement, and as such can be taken a number of different ways. Was it in the physical form? Spiritual form? Reason of mind? While God has often been portrayed in various forms of art as an old man, I don't believe that He was ever portrayed that way in the Bible. He always took the form of light, fire or something of a more "natural" appearance.

I believe that the image intended is that mankind has the same traits as Him in the fact that we have a spirit everlasting, we have an advanced capacity for thought and reasoning, and that we have a near limitless capacity for love.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.