Elohim is a term applied to gods, meaning be strong, plural of elohah (god). It is used in reference to Jehovah, angels, idol gods and men. Angels at Psalm 8:5, Dagon at 1 Samuel 5:7, the goddess Ashtoreth at Daniel 1:2, the human judges at Psalm 82:1, 6, quoted by Jesus at John 10:34, 35.

And it is also a term that means "inhabitant of the spirit world". There is no ther way to define it after evidencing the multiple ways inwhich the term is used.

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Earlier I said your OP was wrong because you said "Let me put it to you that demons are not fallen angels, as a matter of fact they aren't angels of any sort and never were." An angel is a spirit being serving as a messenger for God. When the Hebrew malakh or the Greek aggelos are applied to spirit beings the word angel is used, when they are applied to men the word messenger is used.

So you think these terms are not species specific fpr lack of a better way of putting it?

The term angel and malakh are exactly the same in concept because they refer to exactly the same type of being, what one cannot do is call a demon an angel or an angel a demon, these terms are NOT synonynous. Each term is specific and means a specific thing and a specific type of being. Just because we have a number of four legged animals out there, doesn't mean we can call them all cats.

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That the angels are fallen angels? I suppose that would depend upon what you mean by angels, and like I pointed out, you said angels of any kind.

Because you are using the term angels as a blanket term and demons as another blanket term, not recognizing that blanket terms lead to error as it has done for centuries in the christian church.

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But that is what a demon is. The Bible doesn't need to refer to them in every instance as such, but that is what they are. I don't see any reason you should conclude otherwise.

It actually never refers to them as anything else because they are not anything else. The bible is specific here, when it says angel it means angel, when it says demon it means demon, NOT ONCE do you find the terms being mixed up as if they mean the same thing, not once do you find angels, even those that have fallen as being referred to in any other way. You will NEVER find a verse that states or even implies that a fallen angel is a demon. Not even Satan is called a demon, not once, He is called the Prince of Demons, in other words, he rules them, it doesn't mean he is one of them. That is the assumption, it is the assumption you are making it is the assumption most people make and tradition lends its wheight to it because nobody has bothered to see it in any other way until its pointed out.

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Ah! Now I get what you are saying! Okay. First, Tartarus and The Abyss and Gehenna are not the same. Gehenna is Greek, not Hebrew. Actually it is a transliteration of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, the Valley of Hinnom. Here is a picture of it.

I suppose I should make this clearer...

Sheol is the same as Hades - It is the abode of the dead, the place of all departed spirits saved and unsaved.

Tartarus is a specific location within Hades (Sheol), it is most often referred to as a pit or an abyss, the deepest place within Hades another reference calls it "a bottomless pit".
Gehenna is also a specific place within Hades (Sheol), it where the lost suffer as can be seen in Luke 16:19-31.
Paradise (also known as the bosom of Abraham, although some don't accept this) is also a place within Hades (Sheol), it is also once again referenced in the same scripture above.

The link actually explains all this as well, so in a way it is corroboration of what I wrote here.

In my earlier post I quite clearly linked the fallen angels who were imprisoned in Tartarus with the ancient Titans who were likewise imprisoned in this place, the two concepts are actually linked purposefully by the author in the bible.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:40 PM

David Henson, on 09 February 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Tartarus is a Greek word that means "the lowest place." In some pre-Christian mythologies, such as Homer's Iliad tartarus is a literal place that is 'as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' Lesser gods like Cronus and Titan spirits were imprisoned there. But in the Bible it refers to a condition rather than a literal place. The angels who forsook their place as spirit creatures and became human to mate with human women are kept in a condition of debasement in heaven. The scriptures I gave you indicate this. (Jude 1:6 / 1 Peter 3:18-20 / 2 Peter 2:4 / Ephesians 6:10-12) The word tartarus is only found in scripture at 2 Peter 2:4, and is sometimes mistranslated as hell.

I agree wit all you said except for the highlighted section in red. None and I mean none of the verses you quote say anything of these angels being anywhere in heaven can you explain your reasoning and where you get that particular view from. 2 Peter 2:4 actually conrtradicts it placing them in Tartarus.

I'll quote the YLT here...

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

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It shouldn't be confused with the abyss, because those disobedient angels later asked Jesus not to send them to the abyss. (Luke 8:26-31) At Revelation 20:1-3 it is made clear that these angels are not to be put into the abyss until Christ begins his rule, in fact during that thousand years.

Revelation 20:1-3 says no such thing. It says that Satan was bound and imprisoned there for a 1000 years. It cannot be used as a defence for claiming that the abyss is a different place to Tartarus since conceptually both Tartarus and "The Abyss" mean the same thing. In other words they are synonomous and are used as such within the bible.

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Gehenna is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Geh Hinnom, which is the modern day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom) a valley S and SW of ancient Jerusalem. (Joshua 15:8; 18:16 / Jeremiah 19:2, 6) It was a place where the unfaithful Israelites sacrificed children to fire to Baal. This during Ahaz and Manasseh's rule. Prophetically, faithful King Josiah defiled the place by turning it into a refuse dump. Sulfur, which was abundant in the area was used to keep the refuse, including the corpses of animals and criminals who were not thought to be worthy of resurrection were thrown. (2 Chronicles 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6 / Jeremiah 7:31, 32; 32:35 / 2 Kings 23:10) In Jesus' day it was known as such, and so was a representation of spiritual death, with no resurrection. That's how Jesus used it in illustration. Gehenna is also often mistranslated as hell.

And that is the origin of the word, but it is used as the place of punishment in Judaism.

That is why it is so often erronously translated as hell.

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I agree that bene elohim are the sons of God, but that isn't saying anything. All spirit creatures were.

But that is not what the term means. The term refers to literal "sons of God", the ancient gods of the world. Israel did not believe in what it did in isolation, it is part of a much larger belief system and shares it cosmological model with the entire Near Middle East. As such we find references within the bible to this cosmological system and its beliefs. This one is quite apparant in other places as well such as Ugarit.

The Ugaritic texts demonstrate that El, had 70 sons, the "sons of El", were also the "sons of God". It is interesting that there are 70 Principalites on Earth, and that the Gods of the nations numbered 70 as well.

Edited by Jor-el, 09 February 2013 - 11:09 PM.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:42 PM

David Henson, on 09 February 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

[/i]

There is some confusion regarding Isaiah 14:12-15 due to the Latin word Lucifer being translated from the Hebrew hehlel (shinning one) (Greek ho heosphoros which means "the bringer of the dawn [or morning]") The Latin lucifer means "light bearer." Though often thought so, it isn't in reference to any spirit beings, it is in reference to Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon. Look back a few verses to Isaiah 14:4. The reason for this is that Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and ended the Kingdom. Prophecy said the next King would be Christ. This meant that in a figurative sense Nebuchadnezzar was like Venus, or the "morning star" that is the last and brightest star just before a new day. It was figuratively a new day because of all the changes. This period of time was known as the "age of the gentile." Likewise, Jesus was referred to as a "morning star" or "daystar." (2 Peter 1:19 / Revelation 2:26-28; 22:16)

Ezekiel 28:12-15 is an interesting passage. It compares the king of Tyre with the angel, or spirit being who was given the responsibility to protect the newly created couple in the garden of Eden, who was the most beautiful of angels, and who sinned and became known as Satan the Devil. (The word satan means resistor or adversary and the word devil means deceiver.

[i]

First you say the demons were not fallen angels, not angels at all and here you say they are. Which is it? I pretty much agree with all of the quote directly above but can't understand the contradiction.

No . . . there are spirit creatures, often called angels, some of whom sinned by being disobedient. Those are sometimes called fallen angels because they are cast out of heaven eventually. See my response to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible Revelation chapters 1-22.

Hmmm, David, this was not my post, It was posted by RavenHawk..

Edited by Jor-el, 09 February 2013 - 11:04 PM.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:50 PM

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 09 February 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Well, I do not go in for long and convoluted posts with lots of quotes from this holy book or that, and I am not so pedantic to qualify everything I write. I think the general point of my post is that the Abrahamic religions have twisted the the old beliefs and have deliberately demonised anything that was pagan. This is simply a matter of "spin" for propaganda purposes. There is nothing that modern politicians do that was not done in the past. Unfortunately, because this topic is in the religious realm, then irrational thinking warps reality. Nobody likes to think their religion is based on myths and that the founders of that religion acted like worst kind of agitprop liers back in the days. There is a tendency to see these old relgious texts and ancient myths as some sort of reality, and as such people argue about this or that meaning or whatever, or quote chapter this or verse that, yet all is a heap of nonsense from our imagination.

As a general point, after reading Gulliver's Travels, and watching Life of Brian and Meaning of Life, I can never take any organised religion seriously again. One man's demon is anothers angel, there is no meeting point between the two positions, only counting angels, or demons, dancing on head of pin for eternity

The Abrahamic religion par excellence is Judaism and Judaism shared much of its beliefs with the greater Near Middle East. Much of what is today known as the ancient Greek Myths are part of that culture and form an intricate web of belief that the bible is part of. Christianity did change alot of the concepts in its interpretations of many aspects of this cosmological model, but did not change it as much as many think.

While you may call all this "imagination", it is not so in my case and for many others. That is simply the division between belief and disbelief, none holds greater authority than the other but must be a careful and considered decision based on what we see as truth. You have yours, I have mine.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

braveone2u, on 09 February 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

I agree that Paradise was within Hades at one time, but Jesus Christ changed all that.

II Cor. 12:3,4

Peace.

Yes he did, Paradise as referred to in Hades is now empty. Since his ascension, Paradise means Heaven the abode of God. But that again is only temporary, because ultimately, Paradise will be Earth itself.

Revelation 21

Edited by Jor-el, 09 February 2013 - 11:04 PM.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

Interesting, it pretty much sums up alot of what I've been saying here.

Thank you for the link! Am I getting this right: Is the division between the Jewish faith and Christianity is far greater than I've imagined it to be? Jewish people worship Yahweh, and Jesus Christ is Elohim or El?

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:29 PM

braveone2u, on 09 February 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

Thank you for the link! Am I getting this right: Is the division between the Jewish faith and Christianity is far greater than I've imagined it to be? Jewish people worship Yahweh, and Jesus Christ is Elohim or El?

Peace.

No, the opposite is true, Christianity after it seperated from Judaism at the end of the 1st century, incorporated much that was not biblical, and that included many of its approaches to the Word of God and its interpretation. Judaism did much the same thing after the 1st century. The divide today is great, but that was not the case of christianity and Judaism as is found in the bible.

My approach is to drop much of what christianity teaches and assumes to be true and go back to the word of God as found in the bible. This means that one has to study Judaism as well and when we do this a new path opens up to us with truths that have remained lost for centuries.

Much of Jesus words only become clear when we do this, we begin to see that there is something that binds us that is closer to what Gods teaches us in the bible than what is taught to us in church. Not that the church is irrelevant,but that we begin to learn things that churches do not even know to teach us.

Yahweh is El, they are one and the same. They are names that God uses for himself, and we find this to be the case throughout the bible, but there are other names that God used before these. Enlil and Anu are both facets of the one who is called Yahweh or El. Anu and Enlil were the Gods of ancient Mesopotamia, just as Satan, was once known as Enki and Ea (the earth is named after him). Through a process called generational layering, much of what we have concerning these two "gods" are distortions of one being, the God of the bible. If you want to know more I can give you an excellent link that will explain this in painstaking detail.

Here is a topic that adresses the Yahweh and El issue, that I took part in... if you have any questions on that I can answer those questions there.

While you may call all this "imagination", it is not so in my case and for many others. That is simply the division between belief and disbelief, none holds greater authority than the other but must be a careful and considered decision based on what we see as truth. You have yours, I have mine.

Yet there can only be one truth, so surely the real truth holds authority over all. I do not know the real truth, though I know it is not contained in any "holy" book written by men. There is a bigger division between belief and disbelief, it is the division between believers in the false Abrahamic god, and those whose beliefs were subverted, twisted and destroyed. Is belief in Ra-Horakhty, or Thor or Perun, a belief in evil? do believers in those Gods have equal "authority" with people of "the book"? I wonder who the real demons are, the old gods, or the angels of the Abrahamists.

If music is the most universal language just think of me as one whole note. Nikki Giovanni

Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:18 AM

dougeaton, on 09 February 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

The modern mind is arrogant to the extreme, I am an example of it. Demons could exist, life forms different than us, non material as far as we can see and perhaps evil. Why not? It is kind of crazy that anything exist at all. We are not that intelligent and our limitation imposed on us by our sense are extreme and they limit us. Religion could be another way to acess that reality. In the end, I find it doubtful, but again I am an arrogant SOB

doug

I like your thinking on this. Maybe demons do exist, if so, can we explain them only in a religious context? I don't think that's the case, it does seem to me that if we view them only through one particular context we may be blinding ourselves to other realities.

Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:40 AM

David Henson, on 09 February 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Interesting, Beany. What I think is that the more things change the more they stay the same. That expression never made sense to me, but what I mean is that, God's angels are not supposed to interfere with human affairs unless directed by God himself. However, the disobedient ones do and have since before the flood. The apostle Paul used the Greek word pharmakia, which means druggery and is where our word pharmacy comes from. It is translated at Galatians 5:20 as "spiritism."

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 4, pp. 51, 52) says of the word: “(Eng., pharmacy etc.) primarily signified the use of medicine, drugs, spells; then, poisoning; then, sorcery, Gal. 5:20, R.V., ‘sorcery’ (A.V., ‘witchcraft’), mentioned as one of ‘the works of the flesh.’ See also Rev. 9:21; 18:23. In the Sept[uagint], Ex. 7:11, 22; 8:7, 18; Isa. 47:9, 12. In sorcery, the use of drugs, whether simple or potent, was generally accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers, with the provision of various charms, amulets, etc., professedly designed to keep the applicant or patient from the attention and power of demons, but actually to impress the applicant with the mysterious resources and powers of the sorcerer.”

Primitive people use drugs to gain access to the "spirit world." Demons take advantage of this by interfering with human affairs. These are often thought of as good, for example, the fortune telling girl in Acts who predicted things for local businessmen who wanted to kill the apostle Paul for casting the demon out of the girl.

David... Not all primitive people used entheogens to gain acces to the spirit world. Some are taught and some are called. The same thing happens to this day. Your prophets and saints are some of these very same people only under a different cultural context. Spirituality did not originate in the middle east. Long before Abraham, there were others.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light. Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-