Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

"筋长力大" - "The longer the tendons, the greater the force" and “筋长一寸，力大十分”，"When the tendons grow one inch longer, the force will increase ten times." (Yianni Solos translations)

One way to extend the "tendons" (the term is used as a collective for "connective tissue") is through the postures of Aikido and the breathing exercises (few of O-Sensei's actual exercises are usually shown).

Fascinating, but *why* is it so? I remember reading an explanation for the 'unbendable arm' that explained the strength. Apparently the primary muscles change with extension, allowing those on the surface to absorb tension and bend easier. Mightn't this aspect come into this category too?

Fascinating, but *why* is it so? I remember reading an explanation for the 'unbendable arm' that explained the strength. Apparently the primary muscles change with extension, allowing those on the surface to absorb tension and bend easier. Mightn't this aspect come into this category too?

Why is it so and how is it used in conjunction with the correct basic skills.... that might be a more complete question. The question is just one of several examples I thought of to illustrate my discussion with Rob Liberti yesterday in re: "a person often doesn't know what he doesn't know".

In Aikido, that seems to be the question yes? Elsewhere there may be certain reasons but in Aikido?

Well in Yoshinkan they may have one reason and in another style they may have another reason.

When studying Ki then it's for set reasons and quite opposite to the view given abt. tendons.

When doing exercises with Ki then the fingers or even one finger is used to extend Ki in a very specific direction, so it's all to do with directing Ki.

As a result the tendons bit by bit gain strength and subtleness and indeed free more and more of blocked Ki. (as in Kiatsu or acupuncture etc)

In this way of Aikido training the body does build up a 'facia' but as a result not an aim.

Regards.G.

Well, in my opinion that sort of explanation is where "internal strength" goes wrong. A 'teacher' hears a fact or buzzword and decides they can intuit what the buzzword, demonstration, etc., does and so they teach that reasoning to their students. Unfortunately, the guess is often wrong and we're back down the road to where an art forgets the I.S. stuff (or they never really get much of it to start with).

Not that I discourage people from teaching their students their "take" on things, though. It's fascinating to watch.

I thought the fingers example was a good analogue to the postural examples that Ellis was pointing to in the HIPS Indeed thread.

Well, in my opinion that sort of explanation is where "internal strength" goes wrong. A 'teacher' hears a fact or buzzword and decides they can intuit what the buzzword, demonstration, etc., does and so they teach that reasoning to their students. Unfortunately, the guess is often wrong and we're back down the road to where an art forgets the I.S. stuff (or they never really get much of it to start with).

Not that I discourage people from teaching their students their "take" on things, though. It's fascinating to watch.

I thought the fingers example was a good analogue to the postural examples that Ellis was pointing to in the HIPS Indeed thread.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike. Funny thing is the reverse goes for me. The guess from non'Aikido folk thinking they understand. As with you I don't discourage it either. It's fascinating for me to watch too.

The reason is they are not taught the whys, that's all. Ip may have it's reasons so that fits that. To assume that equals Aikido? mmmm.

the extended fingers seems to be universal in many arts. chinese arts call it something like 'tile pam/hand'; you can see it in taiji, as well as bagua palm positions. ive seen daito ryu practitioners emphasize the extended fingers in some of their exercises as well.

it seems to strengthen (connect) the fingers/hand to the rest of the arm to make it one piece, so the power coming from the elbow or hara or foot can more easily transfer to the tips of the fingers.

just an observation from a beginner. please feel free to correct where i am wrong.

Well Mike I thought you specialized in internal arts. Your terminology is from those arts no? You're not known as an Aikidoka are you?

What's your confusion?

Well, I did do Aikido for 7+ years, so that doesn't make me "non-Aikido", does it? Applying "non-Aikido" to me is simply more of the same attempts at trivialization that were rampant some years back. Interestingly enough, a number of the people who attempted to trivialize me (and others) are now learning what they can about internal strength skills. Some of the people learning these basic skills (to Aikido) are purportedly Shihans.... is a "Shihan" who is just learning basic ki/kokyu movement skills really a Shihan? If he is now just learning these skills, then was what he was doing actually Aikido, before? I could make a good, logical argument that the Aikido I learned for the 7+ years was really only waza and therefore was not real Aikido, so calling me "non-Aikido" could be accurate after all.

Confusing, ain't it? If the basis of Aikido is the ki skills (kokyu, etc.) then someone who has no ki skills or understanding of them would be "non-Aikido" and they shouldn't try to comment about an art that they don't really understand. Could that be you? Don't you love conundrums?

Quote:

Remember, this is not a contest my man. I offered a viewpoint on subject and I hope many others will offer their views too.

Let's get real. By your comments about aikidoka assuming they know about internal skills when they don't so it's quite obvious that many ip experts assume they know Aikido when they don't.

It works both ways doesn't it?.

True, and as I showed above, it cuts both ways, too. The term "non-Aikido", I would argue (as I did above) applies more to you than to me, but I generally avoid the discussions when comments go off the topic and toward personal characterization.

Well, I did do Aikido for 7+ years, so that doesn't make me "non-Aikido", does it? Applying "non-Aikido" to me is simply more of the same attempts at trivialization that were rampant some years back. Interestingly enough, a number of the people who attempted to trivialize me (and others) are now learning what they can about internal strength skills. Some of the people learning these basic skills (to Aikido) are purportedly Shihans.... is a "Shihan" who is just learning basic ki/kokyu movement skills really a Shihan? If he is now just learning these skills, then was what he was doing actually Aikido, before? I could make a good, logical argument that the Aikido I learned for the 7+ years was really only waza and therefore was not real Aikido, so calling me "non-Aikido" could be accurate after all.

Confusing, ain't it? If the basis of Aikido is the ki skills (kokyu, etc.) then someone who has no ki skills or understanding of them would be "non-Aikido" and they shouldn't try to comment about an art that they don't really understand. Could that be you? Don't you love conundrums? True, and as I showed above, it cuts both ways, too. The term "non-Aikido", I would argue (as I did above) applies more to you than to me, but I generally avoid the discussions when comments go off the topic and toward personal characterization.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

O.K. Mike. That explains your view, and I didn't know you did Aikido for 7 years. So I shall tell you what I mean.

A person who studies and practices Aikido as their main art or only art. It's very simple really.

Someone who gave up football after six years and now plays rugby is now a rugby player and no longer a footballer.

It's not personalizing anything to you, it's a differentiation. You know it too don't you? What do you advertise yourself as? Obviously your area of expertise which is not called Aikido.

So no it's not at all confusing to me.

You did 7 years Aikido so at that time you were doing Aikido. Very simple isn't it?

You did seven years where it was mostly waza, well that's Aikido waza as part of Aikido. Simple isn't it?

A shihan of Aikido is doing Aikido. How can anyone twist that to mean x,y,z.?

O.K. Mike. That explains your view, and I didn't know you did Aikido for 7 years. So I shall tell you what I mean.

A person who studies and practices Aikido as their main art or only art. It's very simple really.

So your *opinion* is what defines Aikido versus non-Aikido? If Ikeda Sensei quits Aikido today and takes up Tai Chi, his opinion on Aikido matters is now in the realm of "Non-Aikido" opinion? Let's not be silly.

Quote:

What do you advertise yourself as?

I don't advertise myself as anything, if you'll look at it. My area of interest is and has been (since 1974) the type of movement and body skills that fall under the heading of "Internal Strength" (Neijin) and so far I've encountered very, very few Asian martial arts that don't use that type of strength, or at least espouse that type of strength in their literature and lore. That's my area of focus and expertise and, not coincidentally, "Aikido" espouses that same type of skills, so I'm not an "outsider" to Aikido, based on that overlap. Since you don't do those forms of strength, and if I was wanting to rag someone about being an "outsider", I could call you an "outsider to real Aikido", but I'm much too polite to ever let myself slip that low... I won't say an unkind word.

So your *opinion* is what defines Aikido versus non-Aikido? If Ikeda Sensei quits Aikido today and takes up Tai Chi, his opinion on Aikido matters is now in the realm of "Non-Aikido" opinion? Let's not be silly. I don't advertise myself as anything, if you'll look at it. My area of interest is and has been (since 1974) the type of movement and body skills that fall under the heading of "Internal Strength" (Neijin) and so far I've encountered very, very few Asian martial arts that don't use that type of strength, or at least espouse that type of strength in their literature and lore. That's my area of focus and expertise and, not coincidentally, "Aikido" espouses that same type of skills, so I'm not an "outsider" to Aikido, based on that overlap. Since you don't do those forms of strength, and if I was wanting to rag someone about being an "outsider", I could call you an "outsider to real Aikido", but I'm much too polite to ever let myself slip that low... I won't say an unkind word.

Regards

Mike Sigman

Mike. I would call you? You just did.

Your interest is Neijin so there you are, that's what you are, an expert in neijin. Why on earth would you consider me saying that a put down?

If Ikeda or anyone else left Aikido and did Tai chi then they would have a reason wouldn't they? They would quite happily say they were now a Tai Chi exponent. They would also say they used to do Aikido but......

It's not rocket science. Just plain honesty. It doesn't mean they will then be positive or negative towards Aikido.

If I help a Judoka improve his judo that's great. I used Aikido principles to help him, I'M not therefore a judoka or an expert on judo.

In my Aikido as I've said the extending of the finger is to direct Ki.

Sometimes when I see some more disciplined Ki direction is needed I devote the lesson to this one fact. It's all to do with 'extending' Ki for real rather than imagining or thinking you are.

In these exercises all leading has to be done with the finger or more precisely through the finger.

When leading straight down for example it means two things.

1) Straight down means straight down. Not a slight angle etc.

2) To a specific location ie: Australia. (through to Australia) rather than to the floor. The location may be a specific point on the wall or through that specific point.

There are reasons for this and when done precisely the effect is totally different.

For all the machanics people out there I would say this: Just like in electricity flowing from one node to another. You have to have two stable points for the power to flow.

Regards.G.

The idea of the fingers/hand directing the Ki is an old one which was originally important in the scheme of things, but the point is that this facet of Ki is a secondary by-product of the so-called Internal Strength skills being discussed in various forums here and in other places on the internet. Sun Lutang, the famous Xingyi and Bagua expert, changed the way the upper hand is held in San Ti so that the palm is more or less pointing forward; the palm had previously been down with the fingers pointing forward so that the qi would go in a forward direction. The Old Guard protested the change, but Sun simply indicated that they didn't actually understand the fingers-forward relationship to qi. I could explain the situation, but once again it is a topic that to do justice would take several pages.... let me just say that if someone is using good ki/qi skills the whole finger-pointing thing is sort of a non-issue. You'd probably be far better off to explore some of the physical aspects of ki (jin/kokyu).... they're productive studies.

The idea of the fingers/hand directing the Ki is an old one which was originally important in the scheme of things, but the point is that this facet of Ki is a secondary by-product of the so-called Internal Strength skills being discussed in various forums here and in other places on the internet. Sun Lutang, the famous Xingyi and Bagua expert, changed the way the upper hand is held in San Ti so that the palm is more or less pointing forward; the palm had previously been down with the fingers pointing forward so that the qi would go in a forward direction. The Old Guard protested the change, but Sun simply indicated that they didn't actually understand the fingers-forward relationship to qi. I could explain the situation, but once again it is a topic that to do justice would take several pages.... let me just say that if someone is using good ki/qi skills the whole finger-pointing thing is sort of a non-issue. You'd probably be far better off to explore some of the physical aspects of ki (jin/kokyu).... they're productive studies.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Ah Mike. That just started sounding interesting. Then you have to put down what I say. Shame.

Carry on with your historical explanation, I'm sure some might be interested. Including me.

Once again you have ki skills referenced to other arts so carry on and may all learn.

I however am talking ki skills learned in Aikido and you assume much.

As I pointed out 'when I see someone needing to be more precise in their directing Ki I revert them back to these drills. As far as more advanced not needing it, well that's true. Do I need those drills now? Can I direct Ki without having to use the finger as the tool? Yes. But that's irrelevent to the thread, it's not about me, it's about why extending the fingers in Aikido.

According to you Ki is a by product of the internal skills discussed and you quote some 'famous' people who said so. So that is your belief and your way.

That's not my view, in fact for me it's quite the opposite. Ki can be developed without those methods you are familiar with.

In other words that's not the only way.

Statements of someone good at ki skills then the whole finger pointing is a non issue is a strange thing to say as far as i'm concerned for it's the title of your thread.

It's hardly a non isuue for those who can for they would then understand how to do it from other areas ie;elbow, wrist etc.

Once again you have ki skills referenced to other arts so carry on and may all learn.

I however am talking ki skills learned in Aikido and you assume much.

There is no difference between the "ki" referred to in Japan and the "qi" referred to in China and CMA's. The idea that Aikido utilizes some special/unique variety of ki/ki-skills is simply wrong and ill-informed (or worse). It's not a matter of my "belief". OTOH, I have to note that while I'll languidly debate some of the topics with you, I'm perfectly content to enjoy the idea that you have other ideas which you think are valid. It passes the time.... and time does pass.

I just have some loose thoughts in the hopes of others adding something more substantial to relate about them...
In opening the hand and extending the fingers I notice my forearm expands, which opens (very slightly) the grip someone might use to hold it in place, making it easier to undo aite's grip. This seems to tie into the effort of "extending ki" through some line/s in the body, such as the pinky/tegatana and spiraling that/those line/s to create further expansion of the whole...the idea being to create a kind of contiguous expansion along that/those line/s...the ability to expand being key to suppression efforts.
I also like to play around with the feeling of my palm chakra as I expand and contract my fingers. After expanding "well" I get more palm contact; if I have more palm contact I get more of a "full" and "relaxed" grip on bokken and I seem to need less effort to raise or cut; I also get more spring to my cut. So in expanding my hands/fingers, I notice I also get a better grip...and seem to have at least some kind of better connection with hara.
When I practiced regularly (expanding my fingers/hands in this case), I remember I could grab in such a way that would cause the fluid in the arm to be displaced (my best guess) somewhat painfully in my training partner. It was an odd experience. I don't think that's probably quite what we're looking for, but I always thought it was interesting.
Thoughts?
Take care,
Matt

There is no difference between the "ki" referred to in Japan and the "qi" referred to in China and CMA's. The idea that Aikido utilizes some special/unique variety of ki/ki-skills is simply wrong and ill-informed (or worse). It's not a matter of my "belief". OTOH, I have to note that while I'll languidly debate some of the topics with you, I'm perfectly content to enjoy the idea that you have other ideas which you think are valid. It passes the time.... and time does pass.

Mike Sigman

Ki is Ki as in Aikido. Chi is chi as in Taichi. Both relate to the same thing.

Ki Aikido for example teaches Ki developement via a different method to you or bagua or neijin. Thus different methods.

Kiatsu also teaches Ki and ki developement. With specific results.

Your attitude to other methods is very dismissive. I wonder why?

How comes I can see and validate the ways of internal arts when shown to me or even described and at the same time know another way?

Could this be what is meant by the student mind?

I have a Tai chi teacher friend who lives less than a mile from me. We meet up and share our experiences. Share being the operative word. We KNOW we are on the same path and we admire each others different methods of achieving the same aims. We even get enthusiastic about the similarities.

Ki is Ki as in Aikido. Chi is chi as in Taichi. Both relate to the same thing.

Ki Aikido for example teaches Ki developement via a different method to you or bagua or neijin. Thus different methods.

No, not really different. Same principles, same results. You're probably confused by superficial appearances and the fact that peoples' results cover a wide spectrum of success.

Quote:

Kiatsu also teaches Ki and ki developement. With specific results.

Still the same stuff, just different facets of the whole.

Quote:

Your attitude to other methods is very dismissive. I wonder why?

I'm dismissive of the idea that there are artificial distinctions, as you see them. There is only one Qi/Ki.

Quote:

How comes I can see and validate the ways of internal arts when shown to me or even described and at the same time know another way?

Could this be what is meant by the student mind?

Could be. Could be also that you don't understand the topic, though, right?

Quote:

I have a Tai chi teacher friend who lives less than a mile from me. We meet up and share our experiences. Share being the operative word. We KNOW we are on the same path and we admire each others different methods of achieving the same aims. We even get enthusiastic about the similarities.

All you've told me is that your Tai Chi teacher friend shares your level of understanding about qi/ki. Given the level of most martial-arts, Tai Chi, Aikido, etc., teachers, is that really a validation?

No, not really different. Same principles, same results. You're probably confused by superficial appearances and the fact that peoples' results cover a wide spectrum of success. Still the same stuff, just different facets of the whole. I'm dismissive of the idea that there are artificial distinctions, as you see them. There is only one Qi/Ki. Could be. Could be also that you don't understand the topic, though, right? All you've told me is that your Tai Chi teacher friend shares your level of understanding about qi/ki. Given the level of most martial-arts, Tai Chi, Aikido, etc., teachers, is that really a validation?

I just have some loose thoughts in the hopes of others adding something more substantial to relate about them...
In opening the hand and extending the fingers I notice my forearm expands, which opens (very slightly) the grip someone might use to hold it in place, making it easier to undo aite's grip. This seems to tie into the effort of "extending ki" through some line/s in the body, such as the pinky/tegatana and spiraling that/those line/s to create further expansion of the whole...the idea being to create a kind of contiguous expansion along that/those line/s...the ability to expand being key to suppression efforts.
I also like to play around with the feeling of my palm chakra as I expand and contract my fingers. After expanding "well" I get more palm contact; if I have more palm contact I get more of a "full" and "relaxed" grip on bokken and I seem to need less effort to raise or cut; I also get more spring to my cut. So in expanding my hands/fingers, I notice I also get a better grip...and seem to have at least some kind of better connection with hara.
When I practiced regularly (expanding my fingers/hands in this case), I remember I could grab in such a way that would cause the fluid in the arm to be displaced (my best guess) somewhat painfully in my training partner. It was an odd experience. I don't think that's probably quite what we're looking for, but I always thought it was interesting.
Thoughts?
Take care,
Matt

I agree with what you experienced. Like water going through a hose it expands. With Ki extended other principles align and thus you become more aware of them ie: center line, hara, etc.

Your training partner experiencing pain is probably due to him not extending Ki and indeed resisting what you were doing. Now here's a key point of Ki developement. Once you find that effect on the other then recognise their resistance. Thereafter find how to use your 'grab' and the Ki from your palm in such a way that it doesn't cause pain and yet is even more effective. This doesn't mean use less Ki.

If you changed your view on grab and more to the hand meeting in a wrapping manner and leading all as one flow then I think his resistance will deminish and you will in fact already be leading his Ki for him.

If you changed your view on grab and more to the hand meeting in a wrapping manner and leading all as one flow then I think his resistance will deminish and you will in fact already be leading his Ki for him.

Regards.G.

It is essentially a meeting and wrapping manner that I mean by "grab," though you may be right otherwise. I could make a similar effect on my own arm where I would barely/gently "wrap" my arm in my hand and cause my finger-tips to suddenly twinge with added pressure. I've been trying it since my last post and don't come anywhere near to producing what I remember.
I'm more interested in how finger extension might relate to fist/hand connection. For example, the tora no kuchi (tiger's mouth), ippon ken; etc.
I know ippon ken in particular isn't very extended looking, but surely it relates to the "unbreakable circle" I believe Tohei Sensei spoke of?