That really doesn't have to do anything with what you said though. Right now you sound like you believe that discs should be nerfed, therefore just assume every top guild had at least 2 disc priests on their progress fights and present it as fact. Shame on you I guess... Anyways...

Going with WotE, if disc's numbers are brought down like this, some guilds might end up using disc only on fights where SS will make a big difference. Even in the nerfed state, SS will be good for some fights, but if your "normal AoE" hps is cut down by ~25%, you might end up as being useless. I can remember holy paladins having problems with pre-nerf Vizier hc on 10s for example.

It might be doom or not, but they are practically changing how disc works and has been working since FL. Really though, DA-stacking was a thing for 1.5 years, suddenly it's deemed as something not to be desired and some vocal response to that seems very normal to me. I don't understand GC's obsession with not adding another heal for disc in the middle of the expansion, but yet changing the idea about how disc should play right now. I'm all for disc nerfs, it is too good in most of the fights on this tier, but I don't think they will manage balancing it for 10s and 25s at the same time.

In 5.2 the changes for disc priests simply remove the faceroll aspect of the spec which is cast prayer of healing till you smash your keyboard even if its 100% overheal but that doesn't matter cause rapture gives you infinite mana plus the only thing you care is getting divine aegis on every single person asap, add spirit shell to the mix and you have current disc priests. This strategy right now is stupidly effective and promotes facerolling to the maximum so inevitably it gets hit with the nerfbat to weed out all the fotm disc priests that will jump ship the moment they ain't overpowered anymore which is a similar situation monks were in before 5.1 and bring some well needed balance to healing.

In addition in 5.2 the strengths of each spec and emphasized correctly in regards to priests.
Want better healing output spec holy, want absorbs spec disc. The price you pay for speccing discipline is inferior healing output but you get absorbs instead, in other words you can't have your cake and eat it as well like you do now while being discipline which allows you to have the best of both.

Finally the sky is not falling like your implying in this thread it will because you haven't even tested how these changes actually affect disc in a 25-man environment because guess what no 25-man has been tested yet only a bunch of 10-mans and disc is perfectly fine on those after said nerfs.

I think if Isheria is saying Disc is going to be fine, it's going to be fine.

I think if Isheria is saying Disc is going to be fine, it's going to be fine.

Actually Isheria just explained very nicely why Disc is NOT going to be fine: "Want better healing output spec holy, want absorbs spec disc. The price you pay for speccing discipline is inferior healing output but you get absorbs instead, in other words you can't have your cake and eat it as well like you do now while being discipline which allows you to have the best of both."

Throughput >> absorbs. That is the lesson taught to everyone except Isheria and Blizzard it seems but the fate of disc at the start of MoP. What I suspect isheria thinking is that if there is a low HPS fight where the difficultly is surviving a dangerous burst ability, then he can take disc. Otherwise he will just spec holy for throughput. Many disc priests from top guilds said disc was fine at the launch of MoP. Blizzard said disc was fine at the start of MoP because it has absorbs. Now they are saying the same thing. All of them will be forced to eat humble pie when 5.2 hits. How do I know?

Because only the facts matter and the fact is that disc throughput is now nearly back to what it was at launch (except a small boost to single target heal) and that is with less absorbs. Either this entire patch will be faceroll and dead easy to heal or disc will suck (less in 10man than in 25man). No amount of personal opinions and subjective "the disc priest in my guild is doing ok" arguments can change that.

I'm just going to give my thoughts on a few of the things brought up regarding the disc nerfs. I guess I shouldn't bother responding to Ham, but I might as well while I'm at it, how come he hasn't been banned for bypassing his ban yet?

I find the assumption that a spec should have a lower throughput because it's absorbed based flawed, but I'll humour that reasoning for now. So, in 5.2 this 'reason' for having a lower throughput is practically removed (disc won't have significantly more absorbs than a hpala factoring in all the nerfs, if you think this amount of absorbs justifies much lower output I suggest you take your crusade to the pala forum). Considering this, why should we still have less raidhealing (it's been established several times that our aoe throughput will be the worst come 5.2), less tankhealing (see my next part) and less utility (devotion aura+hands is superior to barrier on most encounters) than one? If this 'perk' is removed, why should we be inferior in every area?

Tank and single target healing. Does anyone actually believe that we're superior to e.g. hpalas at tankhealing on anything but niche fights/abilities right now? The answer is obviously no. I've heard several players say that discs tank/single healing is getting buffed in the next patch (to 'compensate' for our aoe nerfs), this isn't true. The changes to PW:S/rapture won't give us more uses on the tank (weakened soul), we won't have the mana to use it more than 3 times in each rapture cd (the necessary number to 'save' more mana than our current rapture), the only result of this change is that we'll have less mana to work with which considering the mana costs for fheal/gheal is a big nerf to our single target throughput.

The SS nerf doesn't only affect our raidhealing (like it's aimed at) it also removes practically any use it has in a single target situation (which was quite important in 10 man, even on fights where it was necessary on the raid you could use part of the SS on the tank). The only actual buff we get to our single target healing in return for this is 20% more on penance, with penance being back on a 10 second cd in the next tier this buff is insigificant compared to the nerfs mentioned above.

Regarding HPS. It's been mentioned several times before (so why am I bothering) but I hope you realise that a class using absorbs always will show higher on the meter (assuming any type of predictable damage) than a class without absorbs assuming that the output is anywhere close to the same level. If an absorb spec is equal to another spec on the meter (on a fight with predictable damage) this means that their actual output is significantly lower (since they'll have way lower overhealing), the result is obviously an inability to keep up during phases with very high damage. Us being able to snipe healing and look good/ok on the meter isn't worth anything if our actual throughput is lower than other specs.

Isheria's (Method's priest) post. If he actually believes and does what he's stating in that post (not that I actually believe that), then yes I'm a far better player than him. Sustaining pure PoH spam for an entire fight is impossible unless you are being fed mana tides. Purely spamming PoH+(rapture)PW:S is never the optimal way to heal (might not be very far from the truth in some 25 man fights, but even in those situations you use far more than those spells). That he's in a top guild (which doesn't necessarily mean that he's an excellent player, it means that he's a good player with a hell of a lot of time) doesn't make his opinion more valid than actual math.

Has anybody actually tested the latest disc build? Because I noticed after copying my char on the ptr last night that PWS is still at 7.7k mana cost, which is the old 50% that was removed because it made PWS too good, which basically means the judgement that disc is fine is based on something that was considered still too good?

I have. PWS for me as of today on PTR is 9150 mana with IF on. With IW on though, it's 7777.

Well, yes, it was same last night. 9150 mana is 50% of the current shield with IF and 7.7k is 50% of the current shield with IW. However, they said 50% cost on shield made shield spam too good and the latest build has PWS on 75% of the current cost, which is 13.7 k with IF and 11.6k with IW.

I hate using the single target chakra and having to cast POH or COH in it because of the 30 sec cd and holy priests are nowhere near close to being good tank healers. Can you define just fine?

Holy priests are some of the best single target healers, and just cause you "hate" casting CoH or PoH in Serenity doesnt make it bad, just less efficient. Which, considering your single target prowess is ok.

A good holy priest can easily meet the demand of raid healing in heroic encounters and is ONLY trumped by disc priests on some fights due to the overwhelming power Spirit Shell brought. We might be a little tight on mana as holy, but you'll be hard pressed to find another healer that can reverse damage as quickly as a holy priest.

But I guess to answer your question more directly: a holy priest can progress through heroic encounters in t14 and not hold the raid back.

I don't find spending most of your time on casting on the tank a good way to heal. I don't agree with you on that holy priests are some of the best single target healers because well... disc is better in a lot of obvious ways, shaman is way better, paladins are way better. Actually druids are even better lol and here is why : 3x lifebloom + rejuv + regrowth/ht casts > renew + serenity + GH.

Originally Posted by ramennoodleking

and just cause you "hate" casting CoH or PoH in Serenity doesnt make it bad, just less efficient. Which, considering your single target prowess is ok.

Good point and I know that it doesn't make it bad. I just hate it and it feels so wrong.

Are you reforging into haste btw? Haste seems to solve a lot of problems that I have with the spec.

I don't find spending most of your time on casting on the tank a good way to heal. I don't agree with you on that holy priests are some of the best single target healers because well... disc is better in a lot of obvious ways, shaman is way better, paladins are way better. Actually druids are even better lol and here is why : 3x lifebloom + rejuv + regrowth/ht casts > renew + serenity + GH.

Good point and I know that it doesn't make it bad. I just hate it and it feels so wrong.

Are you reforging into haste btw? Haste seems to solve a lot of problems that I have with the spec.

If you are talking just straight, raw tank healers, yes I think holy priests are one of the best.

1.) rolling renews
2.) steady, building echoes of light, can get pretty high
3.) instant abilities like CoH to do raid healing in a gcd
4) ability to switch very quickly to raw raid healing
5.) GS lets you forget about the tank if necessary, unlike PS/barrier, which still can drop a tank
6.) Divine Hymn; literally reverses damage taken on the raid, tanks included.