Since all PWAD's will be soon in database I would like to hear your suggestions for next COMPET-N PWAD! Yay!

Before throwing suggestions here:1. I'd like you to tell us why do you think that WAD would fit into COMPET-N, and if WAD has some problematic levels (unreachable kills or secrets, etc.,) please write it all down.2. you can suggest two (2) PWAD's only3. optional: post direct link to PWAD, map fixes and any demos if they exist4. optional: misc comments

If you're WAD is already suggested you can vote for it by clicking Thanks button.

Yeah that's it, so, what are you waiting for, hurry and suggest your favorite WAD!Oh, one more thing... deadline is 31.10.2012!

It is a bit too late for that, in e.g. 2006, while PrBoom existed, almost all the demos for vanilla WADs were recorded using the original executables. Now it's the opposite. Say we add many people's favourite, Scythe, you'll see the majority of the DSDA records done using ports. Same for HR2,Ksutra,2002ADO,Icarus. So what we should compete against? Port records, vanilla records?

Slayer is a classic WAD with a relatively low Port-to-Vanilla ratio, and it has few demos outside of the UV Max category. It also has not too many maps, so it is my only pick. http://doomedsda.us/wad807.html

(+) Only 11 maps(+) Few non-vanilla records(+) Few records other than UV Max(+) Excellent gameplay

(-) MAP02 has been reported to be unreliable for categories requiring 100% kills.

Yes, it is late but some people still wants new PWAD if I'm correct, and now I can offer them one. My opinion is that even current PWAD's are not played enough but real problem lies in Vanilla requirements. Real solution on this would be new client, Competition Doom that we are working on. If there will be no more interest on this topic, I'll leave it as is.

I honestly wouldn't see a problem adding e.g. Scythe and only using vanilla/cndoom records. It doesn't really "invalidate" the demos recorded on Boom varieties, and besides if you throw it on COMPET-N I bet a lot of those records get blown away anyway

Scythe is a fantastic candidate for addition to the Compet-N. The reason I say this is because it's one of the last wad files I remember having a huge vanilla following for a while, and the maps are all great for competitive running. All of them, save 30, are typically small maps with shortcuts and tricks to make them faster. The only problem with that is, much easier optimization efforts are needed. Not to mention we'd need some sort of ruling on Map28 I believe it was, as to what would constitute as a UV-Max to separate that from the UV-Speed category, given the nature of the map.

Another great candidate would be Hell Revealed 2 as I remember it is completely vanilla compatible, and there were tons of work done for it on the original executable. Keep in mind, I do not know port-to-vanilla ratios on this or Scythe as mentioned above, but these are simply my suggestions.

I was already thinking about HR2 and made it available in database editor but wanted to hear from you folks. My opinion is that hard wads are not very well played, I mean it's hard to play nm, nm100s, pacifist, fast, tyson, respawn on such wads so there are almost no demos or just a few. Nobody doesn't want to bother with hard maps.Anyway, seems like Schyte is the way to go?! I still have to check it trought, since I NEVER played it

I would also love to throw TVR! out as a candidate. Personally, I consider that and Scythe as the two most playable WAD files out there on all difficulties.

Now that I think about it, I believe Doom the Way id Did would be another fantastic choice, given it is meant to follow the mapping rules that the original Ultimate Doom did, meaning it's most likely very playable on all difficulties.

Well hopefully something eventually comes of this topic, no need to rush obviously. One problematic aspect is that different speedrunners have their own idea of what makes a map interesting/worthwhile to record on. Take slayer for example, the maps seem very linear with high monster density and moderate difficulty (very characteristic of Richard Wiles maps). It looks to me like UV-Speed would basically be Max route while trying to minimize killing and secret detours for the majority of maps. I think a megawad chosen for Compet-N should seek more variety in the maps. While naturally, we shouldn't assume too much in choosing the maps (a few "impossible" pacifist or nightmare situations could lead to nice surprises down the line), there is considerable value in finding a mapset with a good variety of gameplay situations and route possibilities. If we were to choose an already popular megawad, it might be useful for players to discuss potential problems with the wads or changes that could be made, and then work as a group to release a Compet-N edition (I believe the authors should be contacted about this even if the textfile says its ok). Just throwing that idea out there.

Scythe honestly would fit CN well, better than several wads already in CN imo. To circumvent the problem brought on by prboom demos, perhaps there could be a 6 month period where only improvements were considered, unless it was by the same author of the original run. For example, I would have 6 months to try to equal my prboom 0:26 Scythe map 1 max record, and if I failed to get my own time again within the 6 months, Radek's vanilla 0:27 demo would be taken as the record and anyone can do 0:26 for a CN point. The only thing I don't like is having the huge slaughter of map 30 be at the end, as it significantly lowers the likelihood of seeing an optimized 30 max movie. Since most of the prboom players with records in Scythe are still contactable (Angus and Psichotik the only ones I'm unsure of), it would probably be helpful to get their opinions on this as well.

I haven't played TVR much, but I've seen it suggested by several experienced players, so I think it is worth considering. My only gripe with it is that there appear to be only short maxes. Very few current maxes exceed 3 minutes, and none exceed 4. I think it would be more interesting to have closer to a a Doom 2 level of variance in map length, perhaps with a few longer maps.

As for Hell Revealed 2, I don't think it is very viable for categories besides max. Yes, there are some maps which are, but the vast majority of the maps are unsuitable for UV-Speed (big problem), and absurdly hard for nightmare/pacifist/tyson (not as much of a problem, but still should try to be avoided).

Or we could try to find a less demoed megawad. Altima mentioned Doom the Way Id did, whose prboom demos are all improvable. There is also Doom the Way Id did II coming out, which might be a better candidate (DTWID mostly has demos done by only two people, so perhaps it is too specialized).

One final idea I've entertained is that we (meaning those interested basically) design a megawad specifically for Compet-N. I don't think it would be too difficult to garner interest for such an undertaking, and this would insure that gameplay is reasonable for multiple category recording, that there is variance in difficulty, length, and gameplay from map-to-map, and that there aren't any "too easily optimized" situations such as Scythe map 7 where equaling the pacifist/speed/nightmare record is trivial. Naturally, this would be the most involved option. There would have to be lots of playtesting, mappers willing to make big changes for the good of the wad as a whole, etc.

In general, although the choice of wad should not be made lightly, I think that most choices would see reasonable amounts of competition and activity, but I also think it would be best if no new pwad was added until CNDoom is updated to the extent that it is allowed for Compet-N. The combination of the two could effectively cause a much-needed surge in CN submissions.

Just some random thoughts, would be cool to see more discussion on this.

I was thinking about new megawad specially built for CN, but mappers would eliminate possible tricks/routes and all the fun in that I also have one silly idea, combine only particular but already existing maps into CN megawad. That could be intetesting.CNdoom port is far from finished since I cant find anybody to fix few bugs and to finish fraggles client/server code. Maybe its just matter of time to allow chocolate doom for COMPET-M...

fx wrote:I was thinking about new megawad specially built for CN, but mappers would eliminate possible tricks/routes and all the fun in that I also have one silly idea, combine only particular but already existing maps into CN megawad. That could be intetesting.CNdoom port is far from finished since I cant find anybody to fix few bugs and to finish fraggles client/server code. Maybe its just matter of time to allow chocolate doom for COMPET-M...

What bugs does CNdoom still have? If it's just multiplayer stuff you could release a single player version which I guess would just be chocolate with better level timers, heh. Then someone could do a simple launcher program for selecting wads/starting level/skill/demo name/complevel to remove the need to mess around with command line and things would be lovely

In v2 Quickstart is bugged - no progress bar and controls are not captured, then fast exit while recording is not working too. v1.7 is bug free.Wad selection would be awesome, and it could be taken from prboom+ but to do it I have to hire developer but cant afford it right now, still jobless

Well, since cndoom removes all limits, i'd like no rest for the living wad (the xbox doom 2 exclusive episode) i have a few records over at dsda under the name snut skallar i made when it first came out. http://doomedsda.us/wad1331.html looks like i gotta get back to work.

Also, I suppose perdition's gate (yeah both of my suggestions are commercial pwads) i haven't played it all the way through but it's a solid megawad intended to be included on final doom. http://www.mustaine.com/about/video-gam ... ions-gate/ it's kind of like plutonia's inbred cousin

I'd consider it abandonware, so does the creator. doomworld doesn't for some reason though.

slimepit wrote:Also, I suppose perdition's gate (yeah both of my suggestions are commercial pwads) i haven't played it all the way through but it's a solid megawad intended to be included on final doom. http://www.mustaine.com/about/video-gam ... ions-gate/ it's kind of like plutonia's inbred cousin

I'd consider it abandonware, so does the creator. doomworld doesn't for some reason though.

I started a demo pack for Perdition's Gate if you are interested, though it accepts all vanilla-compatible demos (including PrBoom+). It's definitely pretty speedrun-friendly, but I don't know if there'd be enough interest in it, as it's kind of obscure (there aren't many people submitting to my demo pack). I didn't really care for No Rest for the Living, personally.

Well, to be honest, I tried to play Perdition Gate for few hourse (never played it before) and I didn't like it too much. I mean it's not bad, but textures are... huh, and monsters on UV are not so easy for regular players, I mean, it would be interesting for speed, max, maybe nm, dont know how it would fall under other categories. Anyway, way too many zombiemans and shotgunners for my opinion. Tho some maps could be used and redone for my idea of CNDOOM megawad that would fulfill all categories.

perditions gate was just a thought, since most of it are mustaine levels. Could we have nrftl added to the cndoom database though..? it is an official Id map set after all.... and what about some pwads from master levels like paradoks? maybe they could be included in the compet n megawad if that comes to fruition. i'll need to play through TVR. if you think perditions gate looks bad though wait until you try hell to pay.

fx wrote:Well, to be honest, I tried to play Perdition Gate for few hourse (never played it before) and I didn't like it too much. I mean it's not bad, but textures are... huh, and monsters on UV are not so easy for regular players, I mean, it would be interesting for speed, max, maybe nm, dont know how it would fall under other categories. Anyway, way too many zombiemans and shotgunners for my opinion. Tho some maps could be used and redone for my idea of CNDOOM megawad that would fulfill all categories.

Heh, I think the textures are fine. Especially episode 2 textures. It's great for max (and probably works well on -fast/-respawn), but definitely tough for any speed category or Pacifist either because of the number of hitscanners or the monster density, though a bunch of the maps are pretty short or have tricks. Tyson doesn't work too well on a lot of the maps either for the same reasons, and there aren't too many berserk packs, so I agree that it's not ideal for a competition on all categories.

From what I saw, No Rest for the Living is also unmanageable on a bunch of the categories, but since it's kind of official, I guess making it a CNDoom wad would make sense. Regarding Master Levels, since it's all individual levels, I'm not sure that it would work very well for Compet-N. I also haven't played TVR (aside from the first level in nomonsters ), but I also heard that it's pretty good for speedrunning.