(28-05-2014 02:20 PM)djkamilo Wrote: It's a remnant of Feminism. Female on male violence is completely unexpected in the standard feminist narrative of the evil patriarchy and the victimized females.

You are sooo wrong!

Before feminism no man would ever have come forth to admit that his lady beat the crap out of him. Feminism freed both genders, and it hasn't gone far enough yet. When both genders are finally equal (and we are slowly getting there, equal pay for equal work is still amiss) then it should take less than a generation for actual equality to take place.

This I agree with in part. How ever I would like to see evidence for the pay gap other than misrepresented statistics. Where in the western world are woman BANNED from entering a job? Because as far as I can tell woman can do any job they desire, but do not.

If you know of a company that pays a woman who does the precise same work a man does and is paid less, report them because they are in clear violation of the gender equality act.

Also if it were true that woman were paid less than men, wouldn't corps who worship the bottom line employ only woman as they would then spend less on wages, than if they employed men?

(28-05-2014 03:13 PM)Dom Wrote: Why do these things always take generations to complete, and by the time they are done the causes are forgotten because a younger generation has taken over and thinks things have always been that way?

Would you like to go back to when women couldn't vote or work except in a few select, low pay jobs and men had to be responsible for everything? You wanna bet your sweet ass that no man would ever have admitted to being abused back then? You sucked it up and went to work and provided for your family.

For men to vote they also had to serve in the military when the country went to war. Draft dodgers were sent to prison or executed.

In the USA men still have to sign up for elective service in order to qualify for certain federal benefits that woman receive by default. This is accepted by feminists as equality.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.

Long as you push people into stereotypes because of gender, you're going to have these issues.

People are people, and they all can have all human traits. Gender has nothing to do with it.

While I agree people are people with human traits....but gender does play a strong role that can't really be dismissed. In fact most issues began when people tried to pretend they were exactly the same.

Personally I'm most attracted to a man who dares to treat me like a woman, and not like another one of the guys.

It is likely a difference between life experiences we are looking at here. (between you and me, moms).

I spent my life in the business world, often as the one and only woman. What you see as catering to your femininity (and in the proper setting it is exactly that) I saw as patronizing (and in my setting it was exactly that). It worked for me though, I was constantly underestimated which can give you a huge advantage in business.

You can be a lady and have a brain, too. That is why feminism was needed. Women were considered pretty and brainless. It took several decades for society to admit that females can actually think. Drive a car. Do math. Handle money. Do business. Heck, when one of my uncles died, my aunt didn't even know how to write a check. And that was the norm.

Having a brain does in no way diminish femininity. But traditionally brainy women have been intimidating to males, who had the role of being the one who thinks and provides. Feminism turned all of this topsy turvy. Both gender roles got displaced. It takes a while for everyone to get their bearings, and for the old prejudices to disappear. It takes generations. Eventually we'll arrive at a place where everyone is comfortable and everything is equitable. Then gender roles will be choices. People won't be forced to live with what is the wrong choice for them.

Both you and me and the men we are with will be living the way we like. That's the way it should be. Choices for people. Not enforced roles.

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man

Before feminism no man would ever have come forth to admit that his lady beat the crap out of him. Feminism freed both genders, and it hasn't gone far enough yet. When both genders are finally equal (and we are slowly getting there, equal pay for equal work is still amiss) then it should take less than a generation for actual equality to take place.

This I agree with in part. How ever I would like to see evidence for the pay gap other than misrepresented statistics. Where in the western world are woman BANNED from entering a job? Because as far as I can tell woman can do any job they desire, but do not.

If you know of a company that pays a woman who does the precise same work a man does and is paid less, report them because they are in clear violation of the gender equality act.

Also if it were true that woman were paid less than men, wouldn't corps who worship the bottom line employ only woman as they would then spend less on wages, than if they employed men?

(28-05-2014 03:13 PM)Dom Wrote: Why do these things always take generations to complete, and by the time they are done the causes are forgotten because a younger generation has taken over and thinks things have always been that way?

Would you like to go back to when women couldn't vote or work except in a few select, low pay jobs and men had to be responsible for everything? You wanna bet your sweet ass that no man would ever have admitted to being abused back then? You sucked it up and went to work and provided for your family.

For men to vote they also had to serve in the military when the country went to war. Draft dodgers were sent to prison or executed.

In the USA men still have to sign up for elective service in order to qualify for certain federal benefits that woman receive by default. This is accepted by feminists as equality.

The equal pay for women act (whatever the actual name of it is) was actually just introduced by Obama. And, no, I am not going to produce peer reviewed papers or government documents on this, I heard it on the news recently. It was introduced because it is still quite common to have men and women in equal positions for unequal pay. Where have you been! Women aren't banned, never have been. They are just overlooked at promotion time or not hired in the first place. Although this has been changing quite a bit in the last decade or so, women do get less money so they are a better choice for top positions. Also more women are heads of household, so they make purchase decisions (didn't use to except at the grocer's) and for some companies it is better PR to have high ranking female employees.

Women didn't make the laws about men and the service, men did. Don't be blaming us for what you did to yourselves. Just work to undo it. I am quite sure women won't oppose your changing that, it sounds like a crap law to me.

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man

I am a 6 ft. tall woman, and I am strong. When I was 20 (a swimmer, bike rider, and tennis player), a skinny little guy (about 5'6") approached me and attempted to rape me. He began to wrestle me to the ground, and I don't know why but I began to laugh. He immediately "lost" what he was going to use to commit the deed, kicked me and left. Now, this is what I know. Afterward, I fell apart in terror because I could feel that his strength surpassed my own. He could have, with not a lot of effort, finished what he started.

Think: in an all out physical fight out between an average sized man and an average sized woman, who is going down quicker, and who will incur the greatest physical damage? It's a total no brainer.

I am a professional in this field:

fact: Most men are stronger and larger than most women and can, therefore, inflict
greater damage.

fact: 1 in 4 women are victims of domestic violence in their lifetime.

fact: More women than men are killed by a male, intimate partner.

fact; 1 in 3 female murder victims are murdered by a current or former
intimate partner. More than 90% of these were murdered by a male.

fact: most victims of domestic violence do not report or get help.

fact: it's far, far easier for most men to get away from a physically abusive female partner that it is for a woman to get away from a man.

Now, I will say that men are probably more unlikely than women to report domestic violence because of stereotyping. Would he not be accused of being a pussy? That was appalling what happened in the video and the reaction of the onlookers was unconscionable.

We have little stats about male victims of domestic violence. One study I looked up states that 40% of the victims in the severest cases of physical domestic are men, and 60% are women.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles

(28-05-2014 03:30 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote: This I agree with in part. How ever I would like to see evidence for the pay gap other than misrepresented statistics. Where in the western world are woman BANNED from entering a job? Because as far as I can tell woman can do any job they desire, but do not.

If you know of a company that pays a woman who does the precise same work a man does and is paid less, report them because they are in clear violation of the gender equality act.

Also if it were true that woman were paid less than men, wouldn't corps who worship the bottom line employ only woman as they would then spend less on wages, than if they employed men?

For men to vote they also had to serve in the military when the country went to war. Draft dodgers were sent to prison or executed.

In the USA men still have to sign up for elective service in order to qualify for certain federal benefits that woman receive by default. This is accepted by feminists as equality.

The equal pay for women act (whatever the actual name of it is) was actually just introduced by Obama. And, no, I am not going to produce peer reviewed papers or government documents on this, I heard it on the news recently. It was introduced because it is still quite common to have men and women in equal positions for unequal pay. Where have you been! Women aren't banned, never have been. They are just overlooked at promotion time or not hired in the first place. Although this has been changing quite a bit in the last decade or so, women do get less money so they are a better choice for top positions. Also more women are heads of household, so they make purchase decisions (didn't use to except at the grocer's) and for some companies it is better PR to have high ranking female employees.

Women didn't make the laws about men and the service, men did. Don't be blaming us for what you did to yourselves. Just work to undo it. I am quite sure women won't oppose your changing that, it sounds like a crap law to me.

I was referring to the Equal Pay Act of 1963, signed into law by Pres. Kennedy. Not to the recent bill proposed by Sen Clinton.

This is of course ignoring the studies done by the Dept of Labor which stated: This study notes, for example, that men as a group earn higher wages in part because men dominate blue collar jobs, which are more likely to require cash payments for overtime work; in contrast, women comprise over half of the salaried white collar management workforce that is often exempted from overtime laws. In summary, the study stated:

Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers.

(29-05-2014 02:17 AM)Dee Wrote: There are some great comments on this thread.

I am a 6 ft. tall woman, and I am strong. When I was 20 (a swimmer, bike rider, and tennis player), a skinny little guy (about 5'6") approached me and attempted to rape me. He began to wrestle me to the ground, and I don't know why but I began to laugh. He immediately "lost" what he was going to use to commit the deed, kicked me and left. Now, this is what I know. Afterward, I fell apart in terror because I could feel that his strength surpassed my own. He could have, with not a lot of effort, finished what he started.

Think: in an all out physical fight out between an average sized man and an average sized woman, who is going down quicker, and who will incur the greatest physical damage? It's a total no brainer.

I am a professional in this field:

fact: Most men are stronger and larger than most women and can, therefore, inflict
greater damage.

fact: 1 in 4 women are victims of domestic violence in their lifetime.

fact: More women than men are killed by a male, intimate partner.

fact; 1 in 3 female murder victims are murdered by a current or former
intimate partner. More than 90% of these were murdered by a male.

fact: most victims of domestic violence do not report or get help.

fact: it's far, far easier for most men to get away from a physically abusive female partner that it is for a woman to get away from a man.

Now, I will say that men are probably more unlikely than women to report domestic violence because of stereotyping. Would he not be accused of being a pussy? That was appalling what happened in the video and the reaction of the onlookers was unconscionable.

We have little stats about male victims of domestic violence. One study I looked up states that 40% of the victims in the severest cases of physical domestic are men, and 60% are women.

I don't dispute that. I never have. What I am saying and arguing for is that for the 40% of cases there are supported as well not just for the 60%.

There isn't any support for them.

I can also quote statistics for the other side.

1. Woman receive a lighter sentence then men for the same offences.
2. Four times more men are killed in work place accidents than woman.
3. The suicide rate for men is 4 times higher than for woman.
4. Men are 3 times more likely to be homeless than women.

Support for men is lacking in many area's yet feminist lobbying groups are deathly silent on it. For a movement obstensively in favor of equality it seems that only if it is in favor of woman is anything done.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.

(29-05-2014 03:00 AM)Blackhand293 Wrote: I can also quote statistics for the other side.

1. Woman receive a lighter sentence then men for the same offences.
2. Four times more men are killed in work place accidents than woman.
3. The suicide rate for men is 4 times higher than for woman.
4. Men are 3 times more likely to be homeless than women.

Support for men is lacking in many area's yet feminist lobbying groups are deathly silent on it. For a movement obstensively in favor of equality it seems that only if it is in favor of woman is anything done.

Women's lobbying groups are to support women, a long ignored underclass, that has faced a long history of abuse and disregard from all segments of male dominated society. Women's history: cannot vote, no place in art, medicine, not enough employment, prostitution throughout history was not a choice.

1. Women are subject to stereotyping (sad little, irresponsible things), and lighter sentencing or none at all goes back thousands of years. But when it comes to judging a woman's sexual behavior, she almost always loses; in court, family, and in society, and sometimes her life.

2. 4 x more men are killed in workplace accidents because they tend to work in male dominated areas that pose more danger. What is the ratio of women to men in oil field work?

3. The suicide rate is much higher for men than women because far more men chose guns than women. Yet, women attempt suicide at a greater rate than men.

4. Men are 3 times more likely to be homeless than women. I don't know why. I will find out. Maybe it's because a homeless woman is less socially tolerated or women are more likely to keep family connections or they have kids with them--not socially intolerated.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles

(28-05-2014 03:13 PM)Dom Wrote: Before feminism no man would ever have come forth to admit that his lady beat the crap out of him. Feminism freed both genders, and it hasn't gone far enough yet. When both genders are finally equal (and we are slowly getting there, equal pay for equal work is still amiss) then it should take less than a generation for actual equality to take place.

Ah, a post after my own heart.

Dom, you are so correct.

Feminism is still the key to freeing both genders. But we are now in 3rd wave feminism and have unfortunately left the men behind. We need to go back to the end of first wave, pick them up and bring them forward.

I think where the men are is the measure of current feminist success.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles

(29-05-2014 04:00 AM)Dee Wrote: Women's lobbying groups are to support women, a long ignored underclass, that has faced a long history of abuse and disregard from all segments of male dominated society. Women's history: cannot vote, no place in art, medicine, not enough employment, prostitution throughout history was not a choice.

And men were required to protect and provide. Go to war and die.
Going to war was not a choice. You had to go.

The suffragettes went on a shaming campaign in WW1, handing out white feathers to young men who at that time weren't even eligible to vote. Sending out young boys to die so they could be protected.

(29-05-2014 04:00 AM)Dee Wrote: 1. Women are subject to stereotyping (sad little, irresponsible things), and lighter sentencing or none at all goes back thousands of years. But when it comes to judging a woman's sexual behavior, she almost always loses; in court, family, and in society, and sometimes her life.

1. Men are subject to stereotyping as violent thoughtless brutes. When a woman rapes a boy she will get a lesser sentence, and her actions will be excused by other woman. Stereotyping goes both ways but is only highlighted when woman face it.

If a man is abused as highlighted in the article, and reports the abuse HE is arrested.
This is a Direct result of Feminism.

In family court a woman is almost always given custody of children, regardless of the situation. This is a direct result of feminism.

80% of divorces are instituted by woman, with 75% of those citing dissatisfaction as the reason. In those cases the man is made to pay alimony, and if there are children child support.

(29-05-2014 04:00 AM)Dee Wrote: 2. 4 x more men are killed in workplace accidents because they tend to work in male dominated areas that pose more danger. What is the ratio of women to men in oil field work?

2. And in fields like that men earn more on average due to the dangers, yet when the total incomes are compared and woman are seen as not earning as much as men there is a problem. I;m sensing a little hypocrisy from feminists here.

In 2008 when the total workplace deaths came down and the ratio shifted that the percentage of woman dieing was higher than previous years the Feminists were outraged. What had happened was that so many men had become unemployed that the ratio shifted, not that more woman had died.

(29-05-2014 04:00 AM)Dee Wrote: 3. The suicide rate is much higher for men than women because far more men chose guns than women. Yet, women attempt suicide at a greater rate than men.

A study found that the most frequent method of suicide among both genders was hanging, however the use of hanging was much higher in males (54.3%) than in females (35.6%). The same study found that the second most common methods were fire arms for men and poisoning for women.

The difference here is that males tend to use more immediately fatal methods. In most attempted suicides, studies have shown that females are 13-21% more likely than males to receive a psychiatric affective diagnosis.

(29-05-2014 04:00 AM)Dee Wrote: 4. Men are 3 times more likely to be homeless than women. I don't know why. I will find out. Maybe it's because a homeless woman is less socially tolerated or women are more likely to keep family connections or they have kids with them--not socially intolerated.

Or because a significant portion of the homeless are veterans? Veterans who are exclusively male? Or are male teenagers kicked out of DV shelters because they are males?

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.