I've been pretty lenient here so far on several of these topics. This is neither the place nor the thread to point specific fingers about specific events, nor does anyone have the right to jump in and start rabble rousing in defence of their space honour. You have all been advised about this very exact thing before, not that long ago.

I hope we can continue this discussion.

Logged

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

All characters emulate their creator in one way or another, and the severity of this is dependent on the writer themselves. In my opinion, whether it's self-insert or as far as it can be, both of those don't even matter at all. What DOES matter is the separation of your own personal feelings with the actual interactions this character has with other individuals. The IC/OOC divide in many people is completely shattered in EVE, and I can say this with utmost confidence. There have been too many times where someone does something OOC without thinking of the IC and then has to pass it off / make excuses for it in-character, sacrificing consistency of their own character or the respect they have, OOCly, from others.

Person A looks at their character, thinks to themselves well okay given this characters particular worldview, ideology, and personality etc., I'll go ahead and file a wardec and take action against certain group X or person X they consider their ideological enemy/competitor/hell just don't like them.

That's not exactly it. On one hand, go for it; it's perfectly valid. There's a reason I put CC in his own corporation: so he can wardec people at his heart's desire, and so that he can be wardecced, too. I encourage it. He has a loud mouth, he is a firebrand, he's an obnoxious little shit who likes trying to disassemble people emotionally to see what they're made of. So why have I not wardecced everybody and their dead dog?

Aside from the fact I spent all my money on ship SKINs and clothing and thus am spacepoor, my character is exactly that: my character. While I stick to the consistency of his IC interactions, it is my duty as a writer and a storyteller to affirm the continuation of not only his story, but the stories of other characters around me. It becomes irresponsible in SOME ways (only some) to overextend my potential power as a character and as a player of EVE to utterly aggress and/or destroy others because RP is not about "winning" or "look how much more IC I am than you," it's about fostering those stories and inter-character relationships.

In addition to that, as you have learned from this thread and as you have experienced, there are, like I said, so so so many where OOC comes first and IC comes second with respect to IC/OOC divide. It is not unusual or unexpected to automatically assume the others have wardecced/whatever you because OOCly, they want to get their kicks. It's common. Expected, even. I hate a lot of people in this fucking game and a lot of corporations, too. I only wish I could burn them to the ground, sometimes, but outside of logistical problems (i.e. I'm only one fucking dude), I refuse to.

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You do that and suddenly there's outrage by a lot RP'ers because "You" as in the player of the character is "Mean" or a "Bully" or "Not doing REAL RP" or "You are a troll". What, I'm supposed to not enact rational action and consequences based on character objectives and ideology in the game that might lead to conflict because I have to be nice to other characters at all times so their PLAYERS don't feel hurt or lose spaceships?

You are the writer. You are responsible for the character. You must make decisions to influence your character, and to keep the consistency of the interweaved story of EVE alive, or else RP dies. If someone does some dumb shit, and the dumb shit is so utterly dumb and repulsive ICly that it necessitates a wardec, go for it. Kill 'em all. My point is that just because you have the tools to shoot at a target doesn't mean you must shoot at it. Sometimes pointing the gun is enough.

I am somewhat bemused by the repeated use of the word "hate" in regards to OOC interactions. I've not known very many people who actually hate each other OOC.

I'd even go as far to say that most RP wardecs aren't even inspired by an OOC dislike, so much as just no OOC reason not to (and the IC cause as well of course).Entertainment, interesting interactions, and character progression are usually much more important factors.

It's very disappointing when that is denied by the defending party defaulting to "well it's obviously because they OOC don't like me, so I'm just going to shut down any possible meaningful interaction".

It's very disappointing when that is denied by the defending party defaulting to "well it's obviously because they OOC don't like me, so I'm just going to shut down any possible meaningful interaction".

Spin2Win - this permeates games like these on all levels, and roleplaying is not an exception. I'd like to make a slight addition to the attribution of OOC motives. In general, war deccing IC corporations - especially heavy ic - for OOC reasons is the most moot things you can do if you are looking for content (from a pure PvP perspective, RP-PvP etc is different of course!). There are cheaper kills galore in random highsec corporation #15 if you're looking for this kind of thing.

All characters emulate their creator in one way or another, and the severity of this is dependent on the writer themselves. In my opinion, whether it's self-insert or as far as it can be, both of those don't even matter at all. What DOES matter is the separation of your own personal feelings with the actual interactions this character has with other individuals. The IC/OOC divide in many people is completely shattered in EVE, and I can say this with utmost confidence. There have been too many times where someone does something OOC without thinking of the IC and then has to pass it off / make excuses for it in-character, sacrificing consistency of their own character or the respect they have, OOCly, from others.

Essentially what you're saying is you cannot take what other characters do at face value wholly in the context of what they say and do within the boundaries of the game, and have to justify in-character decisions to OOC opinions and "Respect" -- which is odd when considering that the setting can be seen to be premised on self-interest and realpolitik. Doing something out of self-benefit for a character, either out of a consequentialist, "Ends justify the means" or even just because all that ISK was too damn tempting and then having to try and justify it in-character when it runs counter to what people thought your character was all about doesn't seem all that surprising or remarkable to me.

However, to speak about how the OOC/IC divide is shattered and saying that doing so loses OOC respect and not IC respect as in your character reacting to that with, "How could you do that, I thought you were different man," Seems a bit ironic and hypocritical to me.

I've disagreed on occasion with what roleplayers do, and how they might interpret the lore, but when it comes down to it irrespective of my own opinions as a player when an interaction becomes IC then I'm going to take things at face value as presented IC by other parties and deal with it IC.

It becomes irresponsible in SOME ways (only some) to overextend my potential power as a character and as a player of EVE to utterly aggress and/or destroy others because RP is not about "winning" or "look how much more IC I am than you," it's about fostering those stories and inter-character relationships.

This presents another hypocrisy for me. You talk about how doing something OOC without thinking of the IC would lead to a loss of respect and then proceed to imply that if a character by virtue of their IC advantages such as sp, ISK, experience, contacts etc., creates a situation where they overmatch other rp'ers in a conflict scenario the player is expected, OOC, to curtail the advantages of their own character? How does that make any sense IC for that character, if IC they want to succeed in their goals?

Where's the loss of respect in that then? Is a story about how one side lost somehow invalid? Is having to deal with IC consequences of a defeat to be considered somehow illegitimate for character development?

In addition to that, as you have learned from this thread and as you have experienced, there are, like I said, so so so many where OOC comes first and IC comes second with respect to IC/OOC divide. It is not unusual or unexpected to automatically assume the others have wardecced/whatever you because OOCly, they want to get their kicks. It's common. Expected, even. I hate a lot of people in this fucking game and a lot of corporations, too. I only wish I could burn them to the ground, sometimes, but outside of logistical problems (i.e. I'm only one fucking dude), I refuse to.

Well I don't really get why I'd hate another person in RP, or hell even just video games in general. However it does get to my original point: if some rp'ers get invested in or identify with their characters to the extent they're emotionally compromised into feeling about that character then it's going to lead to a lot of misunderstandings in my view. If, for example, one hates other roleplayers for their in-character actions then it's pretty hard for that person to distinguish the notion that maybe others don't wardec or fight other groups because they "hate" them, or are emotionally invested into their characters to the same extent they are.

That to me is an example of attribution of OOC motive due to a difference in perspective in how to engage with or through a character:

Oh, those guys must be griefers and really hate so and so group of rpers because the only reason I'd do something like that is because I really hate another group.

Which to me is why there's so much drama -- there's too much talk about the player motivations for character actions rather than just taking character actions at their face value for what they are.

You are the writer. You are responsible for the character. You must make decisions to influence your character, and to keep the consistency of the interweaved story of EVE alive, or else RP dies. If someone does some dumb shit, and the dumb shit is so utterly dumb and repulsive ICly that it necessitates a wardec, go for it. Kill 'em all. My point is that just because you have the tools to shoot at a target doesn't mean you must shoot at it. Sometimes pointing the gun is enough.

My character is a fictional proxy I construct to explore the gameworld as a vehicle of my own immersion. The decisions made to influence my character exist in accordance with the construction of that construct's particular goals, motivations, and personality which dependent on the character venn diagram may or may not overlap with myself as their player.

If someone did something in-game, then they did it IC. The OOC motivations are irrelevant and shouldn't even be considered. If they OOC hate you (which they probably don't, I find most OOC hate tends to come from the people being attacked, not the people doing the attacking), that doesn't change the IC nature of the attack or action itself. They're acting perfectly within the standards of the world and the action will be considered an action their character has committed forever onward. The character might have a reason, or they might not have a reason, but the only thing that is relevant is that they acted and you (and your character) have to accept it.

As for "continuation of story", there is no story without conflict. There may be people in-game whose actions have annoyed the shit out of me OOCly, actions that closed doors to some avenues of my character's development, but those same actions have also opened other doors and prompted different character development. Win or lose, continuation happens regardless. Especially in a game where no-one-can-die is part of the IC fabric of the setting.

The only thing OOC determines is how you feel about the person behind the character. Positive OOC relations with people help make in-game actions more fun, encourage you to laugh at your losses instead of get mad over them, but it is not required for those actions to be IC.

I'd appreciate if you didn't resort to strawmen and mildly sarcastic hyperbole to address my points, if you please.

While I won't go into detail about how I feel you're purposefully misconstruing my points and how I had hoped to not feel 'rule lawyered' into explaining every facet down to the syllable in order to not be focused beneath your scrutiny, I will, however, address the other things you've mentioned, and hope to clarify for you.

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Essentially what you're saying is you cannot take what other characters do at face value wholly in the context of what they say and do within the boundaries of the game, and have to justify in-character decisions to OOC opinions and "Respect" -- which is odd when considering that the setting can be seen to be premised on self-interest and realpolitik.

Not quite. What I am 'essentially' saying is that independent of the setting, it is the writer's responsibility that, should they claim to be writing a character, to keep the character in a consistent manner. I believe you are overthinking what I have written, in this instance. In addition, as a part of roleplay, even if a character is written exceedingly well, if that player has a poor reputation OOCly (ergo my word choice of 'respect'), they may not be considered, or outright rejected. It does not matter, to me, if the setting is 'realpolitik' or fairy ponies in candytown: the intention and the points are the same.

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I've disagreed on occasion with what roleplayers do, and how they might interpret the lore, but when it comes down to it irrespective of my own opinions as a player when an interaction becomes IC then I'm going to take things at face value as presented IC by other parties and deal with it IC.

Yes, that was my point. Maintaining your own IC/OOC divide is imperative. I hope you didn't assume that I don't!

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You talk about how doing something OOC without thinking of the IC would lead to a loss of respect and then proceed to imply that if a character by virtue of their IC advantages such as sp, ISK, experience, contacts etc., creates a situation where they overmatch other rp'ers in a conflict scenario the player is expected, OOC, to curtail the advantages of their own character? How does that make any sense IC for that character, if IC they want to succeed in their goals?

While I understand your point here, I wonder if you are misinterpreting my other point provided. Especially the whole, uh, 'Kill em all' line I said. I'm not saying that if some newbro in a newbro corp decides to get himself in trouble that said newbro should be exempt from punishment. What I'll reiterate it as is the concept of taking restraint and measured understanding of what could be done, will be done, and what is necessary, and the cooperation of those three.

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Which to me is why there's so much drama -- there's too much talk about the player motivations for character actions rather than just taking character actions at their face value for what they are.

bruh

agreed

When I say I hate people, it's usually because I'm a prudent literary douche nozzle who disapproves of certain tropes or inappropriate usage of sensitive ideas or whatever, but I still won't throw a fuss about it. All of my personal OOC dislike is only from OOC and OOC alone. Pretty much a 1:1 agreed on your point here, and the few paragraphs above it.

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My character is a fictional proxy ... ... may or may not overlap with myself as their player.

Without trying to be too sarcastic, I'm pretty sure that's how it's supposed to be for every character. Well... supposed to.

Not quite. What I am 'essentially' saying is that independent of the setting, it is the writer's responsibility that, should they claim to be writing a character, to keep the character in a consistent manner. I believe you are overthinking what I have written, in this instance. In addition, as a part of roleplay, even if a character is written exceedingly well, if that player has a poor reputation OOCly (ergo my word choice of 'respect'), they may not be considered, or outright rejected. It does not matter, to me, if the setting is 'realpolitik' or fairy ponies in candytown: the intention and the points are the same.

RP always carries with it a measure of consent sure, but consistency is always a subjective measure. For example, if a character is written as an opportunist or seems to make decisions as an opportunist then it's pretty easy to IC contextualize that from the perspective of a character: That other character is an opportunist. Is there an SI Unit for character consistency? One character might see another as, "Nice," And another might look at that character and think, "They're weak." Only the player of a character themselves can know if their character is acting consistently according to what they have in mind for them.

The only way outside of that is having OOC knowledge about a character's motivations and internal machinery in order to assess consistency -- as such to be told OOC and not shown via IC interactions.

As for poor OOC reputations, that's usually just a simple function of enough people talking enough shit about a person. While the prerogative always exists not to choose to interact with a person or character/s I'll make my own judgements about a player or character and not buy into hearsay. Even then if my estimation is negative I'm still going to suspend OOC judgement in an IC interaction with whatever character they might have.

There is ALWAYS an OOC link between roleplayers, and because roleplayers are a minority in most games people have, I think, come to expect more solidarity between each other. As such, EVE is a harsh mistress, because you can hurt people in this game - those swimming in ISK often think nothing about destroying assets someone might have worked weeks, months, even years for.

RPers are hardly a minority, but mb I'm just living in my bubble seeing all things through a prism. Overwhelming amount of players I see in game and interact with are RolePlaying every time they are logged on in the client. ;P