Comments on: Hypocrisy at the Kotelhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/
The Marketplace of IdeasTue, 03 Mar 2015 19:41:54 +0200hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1.1By: Anonymoushttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-122660
Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:21:53 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-122660Insuliting the majority of Jews only expresses your thinly veiled fear. Speaking about Talmud: it says "isha p'tura min Hamitzvot zmaniyot" (women are exempt from time-constrained precepts". Exempt means exempt, i.e. it's optional, not that they are forbidden from it. Halachically, these women are beyond reproach by Shulchan Aruch's principles. Only people like you, who wave a holier-than-thou "orthodox-is-the-real-thing" flag, quote the Talmud but ignore its contents. Shame. You can cut the flowers but you won't stop the spring that dispells stupidity.
]]>By: Anonymoushttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-122656
Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:13:04 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-122656The Times of Israel has become obsessed with Women of the Wall and the Kotel. It has for the most part recruited orthodox bloggers who denounce these women as anything from phony to un-Jewish. I see them as well-intended, rather superficial activists, whose cause is right, and whose character is more American and liberal than Jewish. But That's just my gut feeling. I am delighted at Josefin Dolsten's fine, balanced article, which focuses on the Kotel's hipocrisy. Kol Hakavod.
]]>By: Roland Thomhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-122658
Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:26:31 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-122658The author is apparently not aware of the facts. As Anat Hoffman the leader of the WOW said in an interview recently, her goal is to push the envelope in order to make reform and conservative 'judaism' equal in Israel to the Orthodox establishment. The monthly 'prayers' are a provocation with that goal in mind. Most of the attendees are either not religious at all (eg the MKs that attended) or not so observant to even pray on a regular basis and follow other basic halacha. Thus they clearly are not at the point of having done all that is normal for a Jewish woman to do to achieve closeness to God that they must seek alternatives like talis and tefillin in the most public of places.
In any case, the kotel is regarded as an orthodox shul and those are the protocols accepted there. If they went into a mosque they would be expected to be separate from men completely, to remove their shoes etc… (and I am sure they would). As one poster already mentioned, the har habayis (the holiest site in the world to Jews) for some reason is designated like a mosque and NO orthodox Jewish prayer is permitted there. Orthodox Jews are frequently arrested for suspicion of moving their lips on the temple mount.
]]>By: Myriam Obadiahttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-122654
Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:09:07 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-122654First, let me make it clear that I do not wear a tallit to pray, nor do I intend to start doing so in the foreseeable future, but I do have a few questions: 1) When exactly was it decided by the Rabbis that both Rachi and the Rambam were wrong in allowing women to wear a tallit to pray, and what were the reasons invoked to disallow the practice? 2) According to the Rambam, a woman is allowed to wear a tallit if a) it helps her concentrate on her prayers, b) as long as she doesn't do it in an ostentatious manner. If the women of that group wore their tallitot on the women side of the mechitzah, how could it have been ostentatious? Aren't men forbidden from looking into the other side of the mechitzah in the 1st place? 3) I was told that it's because a tallit is a man's garment, but a) historically, women started wearing them long before men, b) why not request that men and women tallitot be made to look different to avoid any confusion? Please, do not tell me that old saw about women not being requested to perform the Mitzvot which are time dependent, first, because, not being required to do something doesn't mean that one is forbidden to do it, second, because the statement is false: Women do have to perform several time dependent Mitzvot. One of the time dependent Mitzvot women must perform is the lighting of the Shabbat candles which is determined to the very minute. I am not challenging Rabbinical Authority with those questions. I am just tired of not getting a clear and logical answer when I ask them.
]]>By: Anonymoushttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-81454
Fri, 28 Dec 2012 06:19:12 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-81454if the gedolai hador told all the religious community to boycott the kotel plaza and daven elsewhere would the WOW fill the plaza with daily minyanim? i doubt it.this is just a case of treife Jews making a scene and the kotel has little meaning to them
]]>By: Friends of Women of the Wallhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78478
Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:34:24 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78478 Glenn Perlman It's Rabbi Rabinovich and the media and police who make such a big fuss. What would happen if they did nothing? No Jewish law is being violated. If you look at the record, the Israel Supreme Court actually upheld the right of women to pray out loud and with tallit, but changed the ruling when the powerful POLITICAL orthodox groups applied pressure. Hence the ruling not to "offend the sensibilities" of the "other" worshippers. I believe "these women" would rather just go about their business of praying without plastic chairs being hurled at them, and without being called Nazis on a regular basis. Disgusting behavior on the part of this extremist sect of Judaism that has been given the keys to our most important Jewish holy site.
]]>By: Shlomo Torenhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78288
Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:00:36 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78288I"m all for consistency in enforcement, but it is hardly an excuse in condoning violation of the law. The HCG ruled that Robinson Arch could be used by WOTW and there is no place for the continuing provocation by them to acheive by force what they can not acheive through the courts.

I could post, as I have done in the past, that I see no real problem with women praying in a "minyan" with tefillin and tallitot, but the place for it is not the Kotel (at least not at the present time). Seems to me that WOTW is more of a political statement than anything else.

]]>By: Shlomo Torenhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78290
Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:00:36 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78290I"m all for consistency in enforcement, but it is hardly an excuse in condoning violation of the law. The HCG ruled that Robinson Arch could be used by WOTW and there is no place for the continuing provocation by them to acheive by force what they can not acheive through the courts.

I could post, as I have done in the past, that I see no real problem with women praying in a "minyan" with tefillin and tallitot, but the place for it is not the Kotel (at least not at the present time). Seems to me that WOTW is more of a political statement than anything else.

]]>By: Aaron Shemperhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78206
Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:32:41 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78206I'm all for women wearing a tallis, putting on tefillin, whatever. But at the end of the day, the Kotel is an orthodox shul. The Robinson Arch(no less holy) is a great place. I have prayed at both and have been spiritually filled. The wrong fight, wrong place. Besides, it's against the law.
]]>By: Greg Smithhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78168
Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:14:37 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78168Hypocrisy stops at WOTW? Why are they there? Are they doing it to honor God or themselves? To model tradition or tear it down?

]]>By: Greg Smithhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78170
Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:14:37 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78170Hypocrisy stops at WOTW? Why are they there? Are they doing it to honor God or themselves? To model tradition or tear it down?

]]>By: Ilan Torenhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78110
Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:06:34 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78110Rather than repeating myself. Please read and comprehend point B. Words are more than letters strung together
]]>By: Herbert Kainehttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78086
Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:32:59 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78086The Kotel is an Orthodox synagogue. All we ask is that you follow the customs of an Orthodox synagogue, just like you would if visiting a church or mosque. This is not about worhip but sticking it to the Orthodox. If you can violate Orthodox customs, there is nothing preventing Orthodox men from installing a mechitzah in your synagogue.
]]>By: Glenn Perlmanhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78096
Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:26:49 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78096 Sara Lapping What makes for "real" rabbinic approval are real rabbis. So the question is who is a real rabbi? A real rabbi is one who first of all believes in G-d and that G-d gave the Torah to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Secondly he proves this belief by observing the mitzvot that were dictated by G-d. Thirdly he studies Jewish Law and passes tests given by what you call "Orthodoxy" and I call religious Judaism. This has nothing to do with the majority of non-religious Jews and non-religious "rabbis." Who don't believe in anything, maybe a little John Lennon and Bob Dylan. I grew up in the conservative and reform world and ate the shrimp cocktails at bar mitzvah parties.
As far as calling the WOW, wacky women, yes this is disrespectful. I have no respect for those who have no respect for Judaism and sow division. Every person can do more or less as he/her pleases, but they can't call it Judaism and demand that those religious Jews who live their Judaism step a side and make room for every fad that comes along be it the wacky women, reform, Jews for Jesus or conservatives.
]]>By: Glenn Perlmanhttp://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hypocrisy-at-the-kotel/#comment-78098
Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:26:49 +0000http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/?p=87032#comment-78098 Sara Lapping What makes for "real" rabbinic approval are real rabbis. So the question is who is a real rabbi? A real rabbi is one who first of all believes in G-d and that G-d gave the Torah to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Secondly he proves this belief by observing the mitzvot that were dictated by G-d. Thirdly he studies Jewish Law and passes tests given by what you call "Orthodoxy" and I call religious Judaism. This has nothing to do with the majority of non-religious Jews and non-religious "rabbis." Who don't believe in anything, maybe a little John Lennon and Bob Dylan. I grew up in the conservative and reform world and ate the shrimp cocktails at bar mitzvah parties.
As far as calling the WOW, wacky women, yes this is disrespectful. I have no respect for those who have no respect for Judaism and sow division. Every person can do more or less as he/her pleases, but they can't call it Judaism and demand that those religious Jews who live their Judaism step a side and make room for every fad that comes along be it the wacky women, reform, Jews for Jesus or conservatives.
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