its been my observation that alot of lcos and scrubs tend to think speed is a necessity when cutting grass ! while it may help sometimes, i still think slowing down a mph or 2 and producing a high quality cut is far better , you will tear up less turf, use less gas ( i know, not alot ) , its easyer on equipment and you, and the customer tends to dislike strange looking loud machines flying around their yard! i just think that as professionals that we owe it to our customers, ourselves and really to each other to be as professional as we can !! i think slowing down a little and making a quality cut is far better than speeding around and making an less than quality cut!! what do you think?

LawnBrother

05-23-2005, 09:43 AM

Personally, I always try to take the time to make the lawn look as good as I can. I think most would agree with me that a job well done speaks volumes about your company's professionalism and comittment to quality, and is a great advertisement as well. I've landed many new customers because they see and like the work I have done on their neighbor's lawn. That said, efficiency is also extremely important. There are also certain properties where quality is less of a concern to the customer. They just want it cut. These lawns typically can't be made to look good anyway, short of some major renovation, so I'm happy to just mow and go.

bondman35a

05-23-2005, 10:39 AM

Excellent Point. I think if you can find the max speed and get a nice cut, that is the best point to mow.

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 11:37 AM

All high speed mowing does is beat the crap out of equipment and the operator.. Plus the yards IMHO Look like crap . I see my competition out every day with their . Buntons,Snapper ect zturn walkbehinds . Flying like a mad man . Crab walking acrossed a slope. after a while you can see the ruts from these mowers in yards . I picked up a discouraged customer last week . I stuck my 25 hp craftsman on that hillside and mowed it off . Mowed the level spots . He came out and was really pleased at the cut quality . Said my god my yard has never looked this great in years . I said well im happy that your happy and i try to take pride in my work. Yard did look great , i was not completly happy from some of the scuff marks over some ruts left by . The former Z turns from mowing whene it was wet . But he was so a happy customer is ok with me. I used to work for a Lawn care service . And to tell you the truth. I do not see the love affair with these dang heavey Z turn walkbehinds , and the stand on sulky's . Up hill just sucks whene you have to hold up on the handle bars to keep the deck from raising . Side hills ughhh That dang crab walking and having to constantly feather the dang hydro controls , Trying to keep the machine straight . And for god's sake dont turn down hill or your in for one hell of a ride . And pray the damn thing turning up hill dont spin out and slide backwards or you have a jackknifed sulky under a . 1000lb machine . I can stripe and mow just as well or better with my rading tractors than i ever could a z turn .... Some wont agree i know but thats ok everyone to their own opion right. :) . But Z turn walkbehind's to me are nothing more than a over priced Dangerous pile of junk .

Appalachian landscape

05-23-2005, 12:58 PM

velkes aren't really made to ride on hills. That's operator error, not the equipment.

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 01:18 PM

velkes aren't really made to ride on hills. That's operator error, not the equipment.)))

Tell that to the stupid mowing crew man that used to chew my ass daily cause i was walking instead of riding the thing..... Even whene your walking on hills behind the darn thing's , Ya still have the crabing and holding up on handlebars , So theirs not much diffrence , Their good for flat land use and thats about all i can say good about em.... I had to ride and slide or hear constant complaining . Give me a rider anyday on a hill and away i go , If i cant cross it . or go up and down on it , its weedeater time . And i pass the silly back of manual 15% saftey margin alot 15% is not steep . Love the videos though never mow anything you cant back up , Well hell in WV their would be lots of grass that never got mowed if we folowed that rule , for idiots .... Ill have to post some inclines that i mow quite comfortably and where a z turn walkbehind would be sliding sideways the whole time.

http://img37.echo.cx/img37/6026/redonhill28fu.th.jpg (http://img37.echo.cx/my.php?image=redonhill28fu.jpg) Gives ya an idea on how steep this section is Zturn walkbehind never do it could never turn it to make a pass back . I just mow back and forth on this section , Never slip or slide or spin .

South Florida Lawns

05-23-2005, 07:37 PM

Yes the ztrs can be sketchy on hills sometimes but its easy to learn how to control them. I run through wet grass all the time (FLORIDA IS ALL SAND) and we leave no ruts what so ever. And I would love to see a tractor out cut my hustler ATZ. It will stick on any slope you point it to wards. Another advantage is fuel capacity both mowers have 10 - 11 gal that is good for up to 35-40 lawns around here, no stopping and tilting the hood forward every 10 yards to refuel.

http://img37.echo.cx/img37/6026/redonhill28fu.th.jpg (http://img37.echo.cx/my.php?image=redonhill28fu.jpg) Gives ya an idea on how steep this section is Zturn walkbehind never do it could never turn it to make a pass back . I just mow back and forth on this section , Never slip or slide or spin .

what hill it looks flat to me :confused: ....and the fastest pace with good qaulity for you must be pretty damn slow :alien: j/k whatever works for you pal. in the end result for everyone is a paycheck payup

Jpocket

05-23-2005, 08:20 PM

Yes the ztrs can be sketchy on hills sometimes but its easy to learn how to control them. I run through wet grass all the time (FLORIDA IS ALL SAND) and we leave no ruts what so ever. And I would love to see a tractor out cut my hustler ATZ. It will stick on any slope you point it to wards. Another advantage is fuel capacity both mowers have 10 - 11 gal that is good for up to 35-40 lawns around here, no stopping and tilting the hood forward every 10 yards to refuel.

Thank you, a tractor is okay for a few lawns, but when your cutting alot of volume zero turn is the ONLY WAY TO GO PERIOD. and i have yet to see any tractor cut as good as a commercial mower.

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 08:45 PM

(i have yet to see any tractor cut as good as a commercial mower.) Ill have to post some pics of what i have mowed with that Craftsman . I think the yards look pretty good for a (tractor) . I hear that stuff all the time but yet i havent found out anyone that can explain to me What the dang Big comercial diffrence is Between the two types of mowers ,,, Both have Decks , Both have 2-3 Blades spinning at high speed under the deck . I have yet to see a Yard look as good as i can make it look with riders , My Keys to it are . #1 Keep deck adjusted level.
2, Keep blades sharp
3. Slow the hell down this is not nascar ( BTW with that 54 inch deck im avreaging 3-5 yards a day for 4 days a week so far.

Matter of fact whene my yard here at the house gets up to mow again . or a customers yard im going to make 1 pass at my normal mowing speed Then im going to take a pass as fast as that sob will go and thats around 6.5 Mph or more , Bet a dollar to a doughnut the fast pass will look like **** .

Fuel tank on my red one is 5 gallons . Green one i forget the capacity little over a gallon but she will go a good 2.5 hrs on a tank .

South Florida Lawns

05-23-2005, 08:55 PM

Speed is one of the most important factors. These mowers that we use as I'm sure you know are designed to have the best cut at higher speeds. The tractor has a less cut quality at high speeds you say? Well for me the cut is not factored at all by speed i can go 2 or 10 mph and it will be consistent. I am not saying that you or your tractors do a bad job but with your speed nothing will get done with my accounts.

DizneyWorld

05-23-2005, 09:29 PM

Hahahaha a tractor. You have no idea what it is to be in the lawn care business. I could burn out that tractor in 2 weeks.

lqmustang

05-23-2005, 09:42 PM

3-5 a day, not bad, but I cut an average of 14 per day with my 48 wb and 52 ztr. Lawns ranging from 5k up to 2+ acres, solo.

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 10:00 PM

( Hahahaha a tractor. You have no idea what it is to be in the lawn care business.)

Ok what ever i hear ya bragging , 3-5 Yards a week and Monday is the 3 yard day . each yard is about 1.5-4 acres and that is my largest by far. Thats ok ya come up here with the heavey z turns and run like a bat out of hell and tear up yards . The customers are begging the few Tractor Lawn care outfits to mow because their sick and tired of .. Spending thousands on landscaping , grass seed and ect just so some idiot can run a dang mower 10-12 mph and leave a cut that looks like crap . Im going out on a estimate tomrow and i know what the yard looks like from mowing two houses down and . If it was my yard some hot rods would be paying to have a dozer in their and redoing the whole yard . Why??? Rut's ruts and more ruts and Every pass at the property line is well marked with the tire sliding .. Their is not what so ever reason to run a lawn care buisness like its a Formula 500.. It dont make the buisness look any better to be out their at 7:00 am after it rained all damn night. running just as fast as the zturn will fly . Blowing a mist of water out the chute and clumps of grass that would choke 10 cows .... Thats ok you tell me i have no idea of what it is to be in the lawn care buisness . Well I have 20-25 yards per week , 1-2 thats odd ball push mower jobs , And my phone is not ringing telling me to keep that *()^&*())*( Damn mower off my property and. Out of mulch beds ,,,One customer just took down his . No mowers in back yard sign . they had to push mow it and its no small back yard .. Ill post pics of it next week . Why no mowers because the former Lawn care out fit could not keep their damn Bunton out of the mulch bed and 3 times mowed off 100's of dollars worth of plant's . Guess who is running mowers in that back yard now . C&K and our worthless tractor's . Lmao I just started out full time this year and with in a month got 20-25 yard's and as word flow's . C&K and a buddie of mine that has ran (worthless tractors for 6 years. are gaining customers .. Maybe because we take Pride in our rides and . Try not to mow in downpours . Im next on the call List i signed up for on a 785.00 Per mowing Grave yard job. after the church people seen that nit wit out their running full grunt . banging headstones . i figure by next mnth ill be out their for a all day job . Ill have my trimmer crew working while i spend 1/2 the day Mowing .

lampeslawnservice

05-23-2005, 10:07 PM

Thats not a hill, this is a hill.

leeslawncare

05-23-2005, 10:09 PM

I just read all of this an i've got a 52"tracer an.....I'am not even gonna give my opion . on this .UNLESS some one wants it?

lampeslawnservice

05-23-2005, 10:18 PM

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37588

This house has more flower beds than you can shake a stick at 8000 sq. ft. to be exact, I don't seem to have any problems keeping my mower out of flower beds. And guess what the customer says she can't believe how awesome her yard looks and let me tell you they are picky X's 10. But so am I. Stop making general statements about ALL of us when you don't have a clue about us.

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 10:18 PM

(Thats not a hill, this is a hill.)))) LMAO that is what you call a hill . Hell i have mowed steeper hills than that for hay ..... That aint much steeper than what my red tractor was on . Big red would take that hill and it nor me would flinch . Ill have to dig up the hay feild pics LOL . Very few operators would want to get a z-turn on what we have cut . hay off of and filth . Belive me their seat sucking steep . keep the cutter bar up the hill Had a magnetic angle meter on the tractor hood once mowing Filth and 38 degrees is about all you want with a farm tractor and they have mowed steeper i wont get on it .

lampeslawnservice

05-23-2005, 10:21 PM

I put the magnetic angle on this hill and it read 35 degree's trust me it's a lot steeper than it looks. Should have taken a picture of the magnetic angle for you.

ProLawns

05-23-2005, 10:23 PM

I've been using a Toro ZTR for three years and there aren't any ruts in the sixty-three yards that I mow per week. I do have one bank that I mow and the mower has made a slight hump near the bottom. Evidentally the terrain has something to do with rutting. Flat land not being prone to rutting, hilly West Virginia terrain more prone. Or maybe the ground is different there. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I do know that if I tried to use a light duty riding mower to mow sixty-three yards per week it would be worn out in no time. My Z is a comfortable money maker.

lampeslawnservice

05-23-2005, 10:24 PM

As for the rider you put on that monster of a hill I have one of those in the shed except a 03 model that I would not even want to touch that hill. I know for a fact that I am way safer on my super Z than that old craftsman any day.

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 10:25 PM

((Stop making general statements about ALL of us when you don't have a clue about us))

I would and will whene this I dont know where in hell it came from attitude just because a lawncare company prefeers tractors Over the Z-Turns that do the same damn thing that Tractors do . MOW GRASS and Lots of it . I get so sick and Tired of the bull that if you own a tractor 1, your cut looks **** BULLLLLLL 2- ya own a tractor ya have no clue -BULLLLLLLL.3- Ya own a tractor ya have know idea of what its like -----BULLLLLLLL..... 4. Ya own a tractor bla bla bla ..... Im just sick of it . Yes i have seen some nice looking yards mowed by Z-turns and I have seen alot more that looked like hell....

I would not even want to touch that hill. I know for a fact that I am way safer on my super Z than that old craftsman any day.

I wouldnt flinch one bit nor set my ass on the upper fender with my craftsman .... Ya all aint seen the hills i mow yet . time to dig out the degree o meter . Whene ya have a 5 gallon gas tank that sucks from center . and on a hill with 1/2 a Tank ya suck air ya know its steep

lampeslawnservice

05-23-2005, 10:46 PM

I'm done with you good luck hope your Lawnsite ban lasts as long as that mower!

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 10:50 PM

Aprox 33 degree slope from drawing lines in regard to my rear tires . from level to angle . and i mow steeper

C&KLawnCare

05-23-2005, 11:41 PM

Bite ya in the damned ass's , I could give a rats ass what ya all think if ya want to look down and snob your noses at folks that dont Buy 10-15 thousand dollar Z-turns , But prefer riders ,

So be it i could give a **** about the snobby attitudes cause i own a tractor that could be Burned out in two weeks , Ya wouldnt work for me cause if you could tear up a Garden tractor in 2 weeks , Id hate to see your equipment Tear ass

grassmanvt

05-24-2005, 12:06 AM

hey, run what ya like, its not a competition but, you cant just look the other way when technology comes along, I'm sure the first string trimmers were thought of the same way. "oh they"ll tear up siding and make a mess, I'll stick to my scissors". And three to five yards a day, not trying to be a jerk but I hope this is just a part-time thing for you. We mowed about 20 today and it rained all day. Last thursday was 23 or 25 solo, and these aren't postage stamp size lawns. In fact, that was 23 or 25 stops, actually probably 30-35 units (I'd have to stop and think about that) And as far as not mowing in the rain or on wet ground, not a chance around here, and the guys in the northwest have it tougher than us. I wish you the best of luck but you might have a rude awakening. We (at least I'm) not trying to be a snob, just trying to give a dose of reality. Its a tough business and you have got to be competive and speed is a part of that.

zgman

05-24-2005, 12:21 AM

C&K, I don't think anyone wants you to dump your Craftsman for a ZTR. You seem to have found your niche and it works for you. I've owned several Craftsman mowers over the years and they did okay.

It wasn't until I had surgery on my knee a couple of years ago and had to hire someone to mow my lawn that I noticed the difference in quality. I was amazed that 2 people could finish my yard in just over an hour (mow and trim). Because of the size of my yard, I couldn't justify paying for monthly service. I decided to just buy what I perceived as better equipment and do it myself.

I have cut my mowing time from 4.5 hours to 1.5 and it looks great. Just as important is that I actually look forward cutting it now. I took the mowing deck off my Craftsman and just use it pull my attachments.

You've owned both and found the rider to be better suited for you. Don't forget, these forums are filled with people who are barely old enough to drive, dont' take things personally. :waving:

C&KLawnCare

05-24-2005, 12:27 AM

( And three to five yards a day) I just have them scheduld like that till i gain more accounts . once i add on more ill do more yards per day , In just would rather stay busy all week than say mow , 10 per day and be sitting the rest of the week , Scattering 5 per day keeps me busy for atleast 4 days of the week , i have one not real big yard but . takes about 45 mins to an hr to push mow it with a 22 inch deck . so its one i hope whene it gets hotter than hadies i can keep it to where im not walking to fast to beat time , i walk a pretty good pace anyway.......

I am sorry if i was craping to much of an attitude . i had a major break down with the truck last week that was not even expected , Im stressed out trying to find a new to me truck. Plus we have rain all this week pretty much , and my 3-5 yards are going to be prolly 15 yards a day . provided i can find a truck ..... Maybe i just take things to personel but it gets old after time after time hearing , oh you own a tractor your blaaaa blaaaaaa blaaaaa...... WV just does not have very good terrian for Z-turns , and these danged new homes their building . One housing devlopment that i mow in their aint a house one out of 55 homes that have 100 ft of flat yard .... and i have competition out their running Z-turn walkbehinds on New Grass and ground and whene its wet... and people are having fits and im gaining more and more because , i go slower and not spin and slide as much anyway ... these folks paid thousands for their new homes . and put thousands into their yards . and i dunno just makes me sick to see the messes the last two days i have went to look at , I mean their is a yard prolly 50ft from road to the house and id say 200 ft max long , Hell i would have pushed mowed it till the ground had time to settle but its ruted and tore up by a Hot rod mower operator .

((You've owned both and found the rider to be better suited for you. Don't forget, these forums are filled with people who are barely old enough to drive, dont' take things personally. ))

And it could be all the times and long days running the Z-turn walkers and riding the velkie that turned my stomach on them ... Maybe for the benifit of the doubt i need to run a Z-turn rider . maybe they do a better job.. Maybe the ones i was running was wore out junk , lol , any way my apologys for an attitude earlier , Im just at wits end , Nothing like having equipment in fine shape and a poor ole truck thats down and in the grave ... Kinda kicks ya in the ass hard .

Up North

05-24-2005, 12:56 AM

Hey C&K,
Just keep doing what you're doing. If using a lawn tractor is getting it done for you and you're making a living then nobody should have a beef with that. But bashing ZTR's because someone left a bunch of ruts...well I can see where some guys will stand up to that and defend themselves. I personally have used both, started my company with a John Deere rider and had to move up to a ZTR to increase my productivity. Both cut just fine, the Z strips better due to the higher blade speed I would assume, since I don't use a stripe kit. The Z hasn't left any ruts yet and if operated properly it shouldn't. As for hills, the Z handles the hills much better then the rider did, but I have to believe the operater has a LOT to do with the success or failure to mow a hill. I still got it done with the rider, just easier with the Z. My company has grown, all by word of mouth. Customers are very happy with the results and have suggested to others to give me a call. So from my standpoint...I can't say the Z has hurt my business at all, in fact just the opposite has happened.

Everyone chooses to run their company the way they see fit...that's one of the reasons of owning your own company IMO. Heck, a company in Texas runs all 21" pushers...who cares????? Obviously he has happy customers and is living part of the American dream by owning his own company, calling the shots, and keeping his family fed. So keep using the lawn tractor if that's working for you, there's nothing wrong with that. We all have different reasons for using different equipment, good luck this season.

Buck

Envy Lawn Service

05-24-2005, 01:25 AM

Well, as an owner and user of both, I have to stick up for C&K Lawncare on this one. West Virginia can be wicked hilly like it can be here.

In defense of ZTR's I have been on some scary steep stuf with them. But they are at a disadvantage nomatter how you turn it. Anything with freely pivoting castors for front tires is. Due to that very design, ZTR's begin to get hairy in places where it's not even a struggle for lawn tractors.

I can't see where anyone can say they feel better or actually do better with ZTR's. Yes, prior to a loss of control, the ZTR's are more stable on slopes. But good grief, look how wide the track widths are on the big ones. Give a lawn tractor a 52" track width and differential lock.....

All in all C&K Lawncare.... Craftsman would not be my #1 choice in lawn tractor. Try one with a foot pedal hydro sometime. You should also look into fattening that piggy bank for a Kubota GR2100 or possibly a Gizmow ZTR with front wheel steering.

Your time can be better used searching for and reading the info on those machines on this site. This will be much more productive than trying to argue the point here to all these guys. Read up on these mowers and put it to wrk in your business to increase production/earnings while still having a machine that works for you in your terrain....

SOMM

05-24-2005, 02:15 AM

true deere,

if its that soggy wet on hillsides we're off the Z ant all-about the wb and pushes, horizontal to the grade

if its wet, the best cut with a wb (belt or hydro) is slower, especially on hills.

heavenlydeere

05-24-2005, 07:38 AM

c&k, while you have brought forth a good discussion, you should have started your own thread! a few people have responded to my question but most are defending their equipment from your assualt on them! please feel free to start your own thread and condem people,please dont use mine! i was in no way saying anything bad about ztrs, i own four, i just wanted to hear other opinions about speed vs quality ! if you would like to respond and keep the negative comments about equipment choice to yourself then feel free to do so! thank you!

gogetter

05-26-2005, 07:55 PM

All high speed mowing does is beat the crap out of equipment and the operator.. Plus the yards IMHO Look like crap . ..... But Z turn walkbehind's to me are nothing more than a over priced Dangerous pile of junk .