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Anonymous User wrote:do firms look favorably upon grade improvement between first and second semester? I obviously understand that raising my GPA is good and all, but will a significantly better second semester performance outweigh first semester and cause firms to look favorably upon the trend?

CCN btw

Eh. Not hugely. Especially if your grades in second semester are in weird non-core classes

Anonymous User wrote:I've been asking this around but haven't on your thread yet:

I graduated from a TT in NYC last year. Median grades, but was on a journal, published, and president of a student org. Through a ton of interning and even more networking, I managed to land a gov job that, given my school rank and grades, I probably "shouldn't have." That being said, I'm making sure I make the most of my time here and really beefing up my resume, basically making sure I'm involved in a lot of what my agency does. Plenty of my colleagues came from big firms or have left the agency to go to big firms and in house positions, although their academic pedigree has been better than my own. I've only been with the agency for a about 18 months and while I enjoy the work, I'd like to move to a firm as my next career step. Do you think I would be competitive for NYC biglaw if I start applying now? How about in a year or two from now? Thanks

18 months - no.

A year or two - maybe.

Best bet is going to be recs from co-workers who have moved on to firms.

thanks so much for the response. as a follow up, aside from keeping up with former co-workers, is there anything i can do personally that might move that "maybe" to a "yes" ?

Anonymous User wrote:I'm headed to a V15 firm. I have the school/grades to clerk if I were so inclined, but not sure of my chances of landing a clerkship in NYC.

In terms of partnership prospects, do you think it's a disadvantage if a litigation associate chooses not to clerk? Because of my spouse, I'd prefer not to uproot my life to go clerk somewhere for a year. I've already been long-distance for all of law school.

I guess another way of asking the same question: does clerking simply correlate with partnership or does it actually help?

Correlation not causation.

But no real chance of appellate work without an appellate clerkship

Lots of people work for a couple years then clerk, then return. Also AUSA/DOJ then return.

What is the ideal time to come back from AUSA. I am a double clerk heading to a big firm. Would like to do a few years there, possibly AUSA, then see what happens. Are you coming back with a class year cut? How are partnership chances if so.

Do the math on what you're suggesting. So graduate, 2 years clerking, 2 years at a firm, then you go to be an AUSA. So now you're 5 years out of law school as an AUSA, right? If you assume that at a minimum a firm is going to want to see you work for 2 years at a senior level before elevating you from the associate ranks, hard to make that transition make that much sense as an associate. I think you're much better off staying a little longer as an AUSA and try to go straight to partner. Often an easier sales pitch

What is that sales pitch? I assume coming over from AUSA you are generally not going to be able to bring in a ton of business right away. Or is coming over from the government (after, say, 5 years) a good enough reason for the firm to give you a chance at partner.

If you have been prosecuting high-profile cases that's a great enough sales pitch as is.

Anonymous User wrote:I have a question about urm white/hispanic.I attend a lower T14, 3.2 GPA, no law review. Ivy League undergrad (with high gpa in undergrad); no work experience, other than summer jobs.Do I have a shot at any NYC firms? I believe I interview well/decently.Will being hispanic help at all? Many firms seem to claim they are looking for diversity, but I'm not sure how true that really is.

probably will help. as will ivy league undergrad. but you may need to hustle a bit. still, lots of big firms are out there...

Similar situation being bottom third, but AA at HLS w/ 2 years work experience at a firm. Do I have a shot if I bid on v10 firms? Or would I be wasting my bids? Would like to bid on Skadden, DPW and Kirkland and Weil.

Anonymous User wrote:I have a question about urm white/hispanic.I attend a lower T14, 3.2 GPA, no law review. Ivy League undergrad (with high gpa in undergrad); no work experience, other than summer jobs.Do I have a shot at any NYC firms? I believe I interview well/decently.Will being hispanic help at all? Many firms seem to claim they are looking for diversity, but I'm not sure how true that really is.

probably will help. as will ivy league undergrad. but you may need to hustle a bit. still, lots of big firms are out there...

Similar situation being bottom third, but AA at HLS w/ 2 years work experience at a firm. Do I have a shot if I bid on v10 firms? Or would I be wasting my bids? Would like to bid on Skadden, DPW and Kirkland and Weil.

thank you!

V10 associate here-I've seen KE Latham and Weil dip much more frequently than DPW or Skadden. But I do know people at the latter two firms with GPAs well below their typical candidate profile.

Anonymous User wrote:I have a question about urm white/hispanic.I attend a lower T14, 3.2 GPA, no law review. Ivy League undergrad (with high gpa in undergrad); no work experience, other than summer jobs.Do I have a shot at any NYC firms? I believe I interview well/decently.Will being hispanic help at all? Many firms seem to claim they are looking for diversity, but I'm not sure how true that really is.

probably will help. as will ivy league undergrad. but you may need to hustle a bit. still, lots of big firms are out there...

Similar situation being bottom third, but AA at HLS w/ 2 years work experience at a firm. Do I have a shot if I bid on v10 firms? Or would I be wasting my bids? Would like to bid on Skadden, DPW and Kirkland and Weil.

thank you!

V10 associate here-I've seen KE Latham and Weil dip much more frequently than DPW or Skadden. But I do know people at the latter two firms with GPAs well below their typical candidate profile.

I think you overestimate Skadden's unwillingness to dip.

I think AA at HLS, absent whatever the equivalent of Cs are (and even with them potentially), is competitive at every firm outside of the top handful of most selective (i.e., WLRK, Williams & Connolly, Munger, etc.). I'd bid 'em all but also mix in some less-selective firms.

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

How would you revise this approach for a school like Penn, where you can't give a firm your grades until you arrive at the screener?

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

How would you revise this approach for a school like Penn, where you can't give a firm your grades until you arrive at the screener?

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

How would you revise this approach for a school like Penn, where you can't give a firm your grades until you arrive at the screener?

Why can't you?

School policy pre-OCI, but I assume the only ramification is a stern talking to from CSO

(I'm currently an associate; just wondering if I need to revise my yearly OCI advice that I frequently give Penn folks)

Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

Wow, I didn't realize that anywhere had such a policy.

It's not super rare but it's usually limited to just the OCI process to give the bad GPA kids a chance to sit in front of an interview or five.

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

For those of us with a 1L SA who can't take days off to attend callbacks before the summer program is over, are we at a disadvantage for not interviewing so early? Is it better (for the firms we really want) to wait to do in-person screeners during OCI or apply early and do phone/skype screeners?

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

What about those of us who attend T1s and did decently well (Top 25%)? I figure/hope the answer is the same, but wanted to make sure.

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

We'll presumably ask for a transcript either way, so wouldn't make a huge deal one way or another. I'd actually be inclined slightly not to include given the resume will be passed around to folks but transcript might not be. Key is overcoming the GPA cut hurdle initially, after that it's you/your resume shining.

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

How would you revise this approach for a school like Penn, where you can't give a firm your grades until you arrive at the screener?

Why can't you?

School policy pre-OCI, but I assume the only ramification is a stern talking to from CSO

(I'm currently an associate; just wondering if I need to revise my yearly OCI advice that I frequently give Penn folks)

I mean, I'd rather send along my transcript and get a shot at a callback/screener/whatever pre-OCI then follow that policy and not have a chance to do anything until OCI, but your call

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

Wow, I didn't realize that anywhere had such a policy.

It's not super rare but it's usually limited to just the OCI process to give the bad GPA kids a chance to sit in front of an interview or five.

That makes sense, but is also totally dumb.

The number of times I've had someone come in and then hand me a transcript waaaay below our cut is extraordinarily high. Waste of everyone's time.

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

For those of us with a 1L SA who can't take days off to attend callbacks before the summer program is over, are we at a disadvantage for not interviewing so early? Is it better (for the firms we really want) to wait to do in-person screeners during OCI or apply early and do phone/skype screeners?

Anonymous User wrote:In 2016, if you haven't emailed a bunch of firms asking about coming in for interviews pre-EIP, you are behind the 8 ball, not just at CLS, but among peer schools. The summers I was at firms the number of people coming through for mass-mail callback interviews grew substantially and the number of offers given out grew as well. My EIP year, a few people skipped EIP entirely and a great many more walked in the door with 1-3 offers from very desirable firms (e.g. Shearman, Skadden, Paul Weiss, Covington, DP, etc) and offices (e.g. LA/SF/DC/CHI). Last year, the number was even higher and I expect it'll continue to rise.

Coming into EIP with one or more offers in hand is a massive stress reliever and, I believe, makes people better interviewers because they aren't desperate and nervous anymore.

When should you start doing this? RIGHT FUCKING NOW! Early/Mid July is very active.

What about those of us who attend T1s and did decently well (Top 25%)? I figure/hope the answer is the same, but wanted to make sure.

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

Wow, I didn't realize that anywhere had such a policy.

It's not super rare but it's usually limited to just the OCI process to give the bad GPA kids a chance to sit in front of an interview or five.

That makes sense, but is also totally dumb.

The number of times I've had someone come in and then hand me a transcript waaaay below our cut is extraordinarily high. Waste of everyone's time.

Yeah I don't think it's meant to have Ms. 3.0 GPA be able to have a chance at your firm (altho Penn CSO likes to make it seem that way), but mainly for the much smaller places that still attend Penn's OCI.

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

We'll presumably ask for a transcript either way, so wouldn't make a huge deal one way or another. I'd actually be inclined slightly not to include given the resume will be passed around to folks but transcript might not be. Key is overcoming the GPA cut hurdle initially, after that it's you/your resume shining.

Different anon, similar situation. Can you explain a bit more about the GPA hurdle for T-14 grads with mediocre GPAs? E.g., a few years at a firm. Is the junior associate GPA cut about the same as OCI GPA cut?

Anonymous User wrote:Currently in-house at a F500, didn't summer at a firm, and graduated from a T10 w/ a 3.3-3.4. Thinking about making the move to biglaw and was wondering whether I should include my GPA on my resume. Torn because it's not going to do me any favors but it's not complete trash either. My school had a "no GPA on resumes" policy for OCI so I'm wondering if that's a common practice post-grad as well for this school range.

Basically, if you get a T10 resume that doesn't include a GPA, do you automatically assume it's terrible? What's going through your head? Is it better to have a mediocre GPA on there than nothing?

We'll presumably ask for a transcript either way, so wouldn't make a huge deal one way or another. I'd actually be inclined slightly not to include given the resume will be passed around to folks but transcript might not be. Key is overcoming the GPA cut hurdle initially, after that it's you/your resume shining.

Different anon, similar situation. Can you explain a bit more about the GPA hurdle for T-14 grads with mediocre GPAs? E.g., a few years at a firm. Is the junior associate GPA cut about the same as OCI GPA cut?

The reality is it's a lower hurdle. But we still ask, and I think our peers do too. It's going to matter at many firms, and since your GPA should generally be higher (since 2L/3L classes generally have easier curves) the grade cut is still a thing.