“Veeram / Jilla”… Two helpings of masala pongal

A family with five brothers, another family with representatives from three generations, annan-thambi sentiment, amma sentiment, appa sentiment, and in the middle of all this, a big star giving his fans what they want (while also fostering a certain image, with scenes like the one where he advises a truant kid to go to school) – if Faazil and Vikraman collaborated on a “mass” masala movie, it might end up looking like Siva’s Veeram. Early on, we learn that Vinayakam (Ajith Kumar) hates the idea of marriage because he thinks the new bride who enters the household will cause a rift between the five brothers, who sing songs with lines that go One-two-three-four-five / venaam enga kitta wrong-side drive. But of course Vinayakam cannot hold on to this lofty ideal forever. Of course he has to fall in love and shake a leg in a touristy mountainside. (What else is Tamannaah getting paid for? Certainly not her thesping abilities.)

And so we get this little gem of screenwriting. We learn that Vinayakam, in school, was in love with a girl named Koperundevi (fondly called Kopu). And his brothers hatch a plan to find her and reintroduce her to Vinayakam, so he can fall for her all over again. But… she’s married now. She has kids. So the brothers conspire to do the most logical thing, which is to find another woman named Koperundevi (fondly called Kopu), because, you see, Vinayakam was not in love with that girl so much as her name, and when he meets another (completely random) girl with that name, he is sure to lose his heart to her, just because she bears that name… In a different filmmaking culture, we might wonder: Who dreams up these scenarios, and what do they keep smoking? Here, though, we just hope that these scenes pass by as quickly and as painlessly as possible, given the two-hour-and-forty-minute running time.

Besides, the heroine – even with that weighty name borrowed from a queen of Madurai – is utterly inconsequential. Veeram is about the hero. It is about his declaration that he doesn’t count himself as Thevar or Nadar or Vanniyar, and that his jaathi is the working class. It is about his breaking away from the metro mode of Billa and Arrambam and donning a white veshti and driving a bullock cart and routing villains in front of shrines of fearsome village deities. It is about him proving to his future father-in-law (Nasser, in a reversal of the iconic character he played in Thevar Magan) that ahimsa, as a concept, is all very dandy, but sometimes you just have to kick some serious butt. Everything else – the crude dramatics, the piles of clichés, the characters (especially the bad guys) who come and go as they please – is secondary. In any case, whatever one says is sure to be drowned out by the screams of delirious fans.

Watching Jilla after Veeram, you could be forgiven for experiencing déjà vu. Both films are set in Madurai. If the hero there hated the idea of marriage, this hero (Vijay) hates cops. Thambi Ramaiah plays a buffoon from the heroine’s family there; he plays a buffoon from the heroine’s family here. Here, too, the hero is fatherless, the heroine (Kajal Agarwal) is role-less. Here too, an action sequence involves a truck smashing into a car, and there’s a chase where the hero tries not to let the passenger(s) in his car know that they are in danger. What’s new in Neason’s Jilla is the presence of Mohanlal. He plays Shiva, a Nayakan-like figure who seems unsure whether he is a nallavan (he helps the needy through unconstitutional means) or a kettavan (he’s essentially a rowdy who lords over everyone else by strong-arming them). This part needs Mohanlal, who shows us how a good actor with good screen presence can keep us from laughing a poorly written character off the screen.

The plot is essentially that of Ramesh Sippy’s Shakti with reversed polarities. (Vijay’s character is even named Shakti.) Here, the father is the criminal, the son the unwavering cop. This sort of setup needs to play out as rock-solid drama. We need situations like, say, Shakti storming out of his father’s house after a clash of ideologies. But Neason doesn’t care about any of that. (We barely register that Shakti seems to be living elsewhere after he becomes a cop.) He wants to fashion a Vijay showcase that allows the actor to remain in his lightweight comfort zone. So every attempt at seriousness is punctured instantly by a stab at comedy, and the film never seems comfortable with its subject. (Shakti’s transformation comes off looking especially ridiculous.) AR Murugadoss, with Thupakki, made the ideal Vijay vehicle, never letting the stakes get too serious. But that’s different from there being no stakes at all, with everything looking preordained. Some nice tunes by Imman apart, there’s nothing in Jilla to justify the three-hour running time. But try telling that to the delirious fans.

Sivan is a totally unsympathetic character. Just the mere sight of a heavy-weight like Mohanlal playing it makes you want to respect the character, but the film gives you no reason at all. I don’t remember any act of kindness (or him help the needy) that could have made him look like a nallavan. It’s like if Simmakkal Ravi from Pandianadu had a family of his own. They’re both degenerates, but “Jilla” here tries to glorify Sivan. In my review, I had written how Jilla “reduces Mohanlal into being a narcissistic caricature with a God complex who converses only in punch dialogues”. He’s so full of himself.

I am pretty sure Kajal Aggarwal’s character is named Shanthi just so they could slip in that Vijayshanthi IPS remark. It’s kind of surprising that they even bothered to name her character. I don’t remember a more useless female lead character in a major actor’s film. And it’s so hard not to feel sorry for Kajal. She is subject to stalking, sexual harassment at workplace and mostly made a complete fool of.. all at the hands of the film’s “hero”. How does one sign up to play a role like this? The scene where Sakthi, along with his siblings and other goons, enters Shanthi’s house is played out like a joke but all I could think of was what the girl’s parents might be going through. What kind of a person goes to the father of the girl he likes and says “unga ponnoda rendu.. kannu” and other awful things? It’s exactly the kind of an act that most films reserve for the villains. After Shanthi reaches home in police uniform, I expected her to kick these assholes out of her house. And that’s when the parents shocked me by making her dress up so these thugs could “see” her. I mean, what?

i have seen only veeram.. i thought it was a good movie. they set out to make a masala movie.. it was really entertaining. and i think ajith has finally got it right in the village milieu after being the poster boy for slick-action city movies.. you cant really expect logic and all of that.. they really werent trying to make an intelligent movie..

@BR
You watched both the films back to back?, you are a true braveheart

well well well, the only thing the makers needed to do was to cast ajith in mohanlal’s role in jilla . We could have had only one film this week starring both the titans(?) together.so much money and time of both the makers and viewers could have been saved.

Thankfully someone actually went out there and called these movies what they really were, staple masala fare. All the folks who I know who went out there and saw the movie just ran out of terms to try and explain what these movies were about for whatever reasons, maybe the thala-thalapathy fans out there scared them into submission or something like that. From the trailers itself, it was quite clear that both these movies were made to pander to the fan associations of both these stars (or make that three including Mohanlal). That being said, apparently the Mohanlal Fan Association in Kerala is not quite too happy with the role that he has been asked to play in Jilla.

I do realize Thaipusam is coming up, but I would have chosen hook-attachments to my back and a “vel” pierced through both my nipples for self-mortification. You, on the other hand have opted for the far more painful option of viewing an Ajith and a Vijay movie back to back.

I felt that the “rowdy” aspect of Vijay’s character was underdeveloped. I mean, sure he kills the assailants who try to eliminate his adoptive father early on, injures the officer who threatens said father and hates cops and all, but I had a hard time buying into the fact that he was the right hand of someone who, despite exhibiting shades of white, was essentially black. He seemed like a fairly amiable fellow with a disdain for cops and an almost unconditional love for his adoptive father, but that’s about it. There’s little to suggest that he’s the rottweiler of Madurai’s most dreaded don.

But overall, I quite liked the film ( thanks in no small part to the fact that I had low expectations for the film aided, no doubt, by the fact that this is, after all, a Vijay film. Plus, the initial response wasn’t exactly positive, so that played a part as well ).

However, after having watched “Jilla”, I kept asking myself: Can a mass masala film, ever fulfill the must-haves of the genre without disregarding logic? I ask this because a couple of points that you bring up in this review seem to point to the films’ lack of logic ( the Koperundevi thing, the idea that Shakthi might actually be living somewhere after having been kicked out ).

I mean, isn’t the lack of logic a staple in most mass masala films? Don’t films like “Thuppakki” & “Arrambam”, when put under the microscope, fall apart due to their lack of realism? Besides, isn’t everything preordained in a mass masala film, where the hero simply cannot be conquered?

(Spoiler warning for Jilla). I actually harboured delusions around half-time that Jilla might break through traditional barriers. I thought they’d explore the darker theme of loving your essentially evil father while being a cop yourself; of having to choose between social good and filial loyalty. That would have made up for the empty 100 minutes or so of fluff which could have been used for character development! Of course, in the end, they copped out of that completely by making Mohanlal a quasi-sympathetic character again (it’s apparently ok to be responsible for horrific deaths of many kids if it’s one of your henchmen secretly sabotaging your benign land grab), instead of the cold blooded monster he could have been. I thought this movie was going to be grown up (partially) and admit that being a gangster is the furthest thing from cool, that it involves heartless elements like overlooking the rapes your thugs commit and bulldozing the concerns of the poor. Such a ‘message’ is sorely needed now that we’re inundated with cool robber & don flicks.

@BR
Strangely enough, I have not yet seen either of these films so far, waiting for WOM to point one way or the other. On the advice of a friend whom I have long suspected to be a Vijay fan(kind of like how a few here suspect am an Ajith fan) and who said he expected both pongal releases to fizzle out at the BO but Veeram in particular, I had(unwisely) decided to adopt a wait-and-watch policy. Thankfully, events have played out in exactly the opposite manner, with Veeram carrying particularly excellent reports. So tickets booked for tomorrow and I’ll be back to share my bit in the evening. Not reading your article till then.

BTW, Rangan, did you watch Wolf of Wall Street during your break? If you did, what was your take on it? Again a bit strange that it was this movie, and not veeram/jilla that I did watch on Jan 10. Liked it a lot better than ‘The Departed’, but not as much as ‘The Aviator’.

And talking about length, Wolf of Wall Street was over 3 hours long too, with no songs/santhanam to boot, though it did have extra large doses of sex, sleaze, drugs, profanity and, oh yeah, money. Sort of like GTA on the big screen. 😉

What could’ve been good drama ended up crappy by pandering to Vijay’s bloated image. If not for Mohanlal, this should have been worse than Sura.

OT: ‘1..Nenokkadine’ is a brilliant effort. It shows what an intelligent writer/director can do with the standard song-fight-revenge-family sentiment template of masala films. here they fit a mostly dark psychological thriller in this mold and I’m awestruck by what they’ve managed to achieve. Coming from the telugu industry, with a superstar like Mahesh, it is all the more surprising. I’m yet to recover.

Good Review…..do you know how ajith fans are using your reviews in fb…..
“there’s nothing in Jilla to justify the three-hour running time. But try telling that to the delirious fans.”jilla- BR
“In any case, whatever one says is sure to be drowned out by the screams of delirious fans.”-veeram-BR and they started arguing that you have given a positive review…sorry,the whole film criticism community has given a thumbs up to veeram….

I haven’t watched the movies ( neither do i plan to) but this use of completely braindead female leads and sexual harrassment as a means of wooing (based on what Prashanth (@WothaDei) has written) is totally shocking. I mean both Ajith and Vijay have reached a stage where , their fan associations will support any movie they make. Why the hell do they feel the need to be so completely disrespectful to female characters. Do the audience actually like such scenes? It’s better they altogether remove the female leads.Its almost like misiogyny is embedded in tamil cinema DNA.

OT:Have you seen the latest malayalam film of mohanlal, DRISHYAM. well if you haven’t please do. Its right up your street and review it if possible.Language is not much a problem, as the title suggest its very much a visual film and mohanlal at his best. It is sad that you don’t review malayalam films. They definitely need and deserve a critic like you and vice versa , i would say.

Also now that you have paid your respects to both the superstars of tamil cinema , how about a write up on 1 Nenokkadine ,, from no.1 superstar prince of tollywood. Most unexpectedly this one was a true surprise. Telugu cinema is more star driven and masala oriented than tamil, yet its quite gutsy of mahesh to try out something like this. It doesn’t necessarily mean that its a good film , it was very borng in parts with all that psycho mumbo jumbo and all. But i found it to be much better and interesting than other masala outings.

Jeeva Pitchaimani: How else would I review them in time for the Sunday paper? You have a better idea? 🙂

Rajeev Harikumar: Yes, I think a mass masala film can fulfill the must-haves of the genre without disregarding logic — “Dhool” and “Saamy” and “Ghilli” come to mind. I am not saying they are marvels of logical construction, but the scenes are constructed artfully enough to make us surrender, at that moment, to whatever’s happening.

(1) “Logic” is not the same thing as “realism.”

(2) I wasn’t pointing to the Koperundevi thing as illogical, but that it was so… stupid. That said, had the same scenario been executed by someone who had a sense of humour, we’d have laughed at it. I’m probably just saying that in this film it wasn’t done well.

(3) About Shakti’s leaving the house, it just follows from the film’s premise. There are some things you can leave out, but when you take “dramatic” material, you have to connect some dots — otherwise make something like “Thuppakki,” and don’t get into a personal dramatic zone.

(4) Maybe you’re right about Thambi Ramaiah. It’s all a blur 🙂

Srini: What’s worse is that these are supposed to be “family entertainers.” In other words, the definition of a family entertainer these days is one where the hero goes up to the heroine’s father and talks about her two… assets. Oh, and he also gets to cup her butt — all in the line of duty, of course.

@Rangan
Finally done with Veeram. Reasonably good golti-ish mass masala fare, aided not least by Ajith’s solid mass presence(Call me what you will, but if an actor can get a fourth-day crowd in a multiplex to dance next to the screen and that too for a scene which is not his intro sequence, I would deem his screen presence to be pretty solid in the context of mass entertainers). 🙂

I think this Siva is Director Hari’s long lost brother who failed to get on the train from Rayalaseema to Chennai. Take away the golti feel and their directorial styles are almost eerily similar.

Also, don’t films in Hollywood have off-color humor in “family entertainers” as well, even if it isn’t quite as explicit as it is in films like “Jilla” & “Singam 2”? “Ghost Protocol”, for instance had that “ur-anus” joke. A more recent example would be “Grudge Match” which had a couple of fellatio jokes.

“And talking about length, Wolf of Wall Street was over 3 hours long too, with no songs/santhanam to boot, though it did have extra large doses of sex, sleaze, drugs, profanity and, oh yeah, money. Sort of like GTA on the big screen.”

First of all, given what I have heard about how similar both movies are, congratulations on not mixing it up in your review. And secondly, thank for finally giving a Vijay movie the dressing down that it deserves. After the previous few reviews I was getting a little scared that you are an Illaya Thalapathy fan club president in disguise, patiently wooing readers with honest reviews and then using it to turn all of us into believing Vijay movies have suddenly switched levels.

On a lighter note., @WothaDei .. Sir.. anda handle vechutu talking about female emancipation patthi comment a? But yes. Completely agree with your points on Kajal Agarwal’s (lack of) character sketch. And also about Mohanlal being only a punch dialogue machine in this movie.

did you get a chance to watch “thalaimuraigal,” the movie made by a director in his 70s whose films may not have the energy of a 20+ person but the maturity of someone 50+? any comments on thalaimuraigal in case u did get a chance to watch it?

Venkatesh, yes it was a risky film for mahesh and it seems to have failed. Early reports suggest that its a flop. which is a real tragedy .It should have been edited better, at 3hrs it was too long.shouldn’t have been more than2 15. I consider mahesh to be one of the best star actors in the country with a great screen presence and definitely would like to see him in more of these kind of films or in SVSC. unfortunately the failure of this film will make him run back to dokhudu\businesman brand of films. What a pity!

Rajeev Hari Kumar: Logic is not the same thing as realism. You can have real logic (as in, it hews to what CAN happen plausibly in life), and you can also have emotional logic (far-fetched in real life, but in terms of the emotional continuity of the film it makes sense, like the Kamal-posing-as-statue bit in “Oru Kaidhiyin Diary”) and you can also have dream logic (where nothing is “real” but makes sense on a subconscious level; i.e. you “feel” it is right, even though your rational mind tells you that it shouldn’t be happening).

Anus jokes are school-level jokes and “Grudge Match” is PG-13 rated. Plus, there’s a leering aspect to these jokes when they appear in such films that makes them much more vulgar than they’d be if presented as simply a punch line.

Jeeva Pitchaimani/Ram Murali: No, the film had gone from theatres by the time I got back from my break.

Rangan : Any thoughts on Dedh Ishqiya? It is a fantastic movie and the entertainer to beat this year. Hope it does well. My heart burns when travesties like Dhoom make 500 crores and a very well-made movie like Dedh Ishquiya finds a tough opening. Critics like you can help in generating a good word of mouth.

Imagination runs riot in these bad-lands of Uttar Pradesh married to Guy Ritchie’s get-rich-quick characters and characteristics of SNATCH or LOCK, STOCK, and 2 SMOKING BARRELS. And a very unpredictable orgy this is; of thievery, trickery, and poetry! It makes for a strange but appetizing dish. It takes some fertile imagination and fine cinematic vision to dove-tail the rustic emotions of ruffians into the palatial secrets of nawabs and begums and yet come out trumps, albeit with some creases.

Retaining the lovable rogue-duo of Babban (Arshad) and Khalujaan (Naseer), director Abhishek Chaubey makes us privy to another (mis)adventure of these two; this time in the old-world of ‘Nawab-giri’. A widowed Begum holds an annual contest measuring various skills of suitors – from Urdu poetry to sharp-shooting – to fulfill her husband’s wish of her re-marriage to a person wealthy of ‘tehzeeb’ and ‘shaayari’ first and then if necessary, wealth. Into this party lands Khalujaan with the moniker of ‘Ifthekaar’ followed by Babban the ‘butler’. And then there is Vijay Raaz’s Jaan Mohammad who is hell-bent on making people bow to him with ‘adab’ and not fear – so what if it means catching a flight to Italy to alter his NDA (his version of ‘DNA’) alive! What then follows is a tale of quirkiness that subsequently reveals the tribulations, motives, and escapades of all involved, be they royalty or non-royalty.

As Begum Para, Madhuri Dixit stunningly conveys the frailty and beauty of royalty, though erst-while, with sublime grace. Her introduction is marvelously in-sync with the ‘elevated’ heights of her characterization. While all other characters get introduced full-on with little surprise or enigma (with the exception of Arshad’s Babban), it is Madhuri’s Begum Para that has a closing-in shot that travels right from the outsides of the haveli to the environs of her room with the camera progressively moving-in from behind and caressing her face from the sides: And then the introduction of her assistant-cum-partner-cum-friend (Huma Qureishi) merely as a device to introduce to us and the gathered shaayars the ‘royalty.’ The hall-mark of a fine artiste is what he or she conveys in some short ‘passages’ rather than in long, expository shots. In a scene when Naseer’s Ifthekaar tries to bring her back to her glory days, merely with the help of her eyes, Madhuri conveys the pain, shock, mental and physical reluctance to get herself out of the current rut. Her physical twitching and her mental agonizing are finely in-tune; neither under-playing nor resorting to the theatrical.
Khalujaan has aged gracefully and has grayed completely not bothering to color his hair or beard unlike in ‘Ishqiya’. This time, he goes looking for love, moolah, and peace with his physical self as-is; after ‘transforming’ himself into a romantic poet. Naseer is in great from and remarkably conveys the dual core of his character’s basal instinct of searching and succumbing to get-rich-quick schemes while still yearning for the finer aspects of life like love, music, and the arts! Arshad’s Babban is still the old, lustful, whore-mongering rogue, who gets confused about the difference between truth and a lie when Khalujaan says,’ I didn’t lie; I merely didn’t tell the truth.’ Truly, the blood in his body flows more to his loins than to his brain cells. He is wonderful with his fine comic timing. Vijay Raaz plays a fake nawab but a true politician with wondrous dexterity. This is a wonderful act and he really bolsters up his repertoire with such roles. As the Italy-connected ‘Italvi’, Manoj Pahwa is superb though he is relegated to a chair most of his movie-time. This is one of the strong-points of this movie. It is written so quirkily with such quirkier characters that even a dry-cleaner, a tailor, a hakim, and a SP named John Vijay (the one character that appears to be from a completely outside world what with his Tamil-accented English) leave their impact irrespective of their screen-times. Huma plays Muniya with the requisite amount of spunk and irresistibly sprinkles her act with lust.

Madhuri’s dance to JAGAVE SAARI RAINA and HAMARI ATTARIYA are a treat; especially the former. JAGAVE SAARI RAIN, ZABAAN JALE HAI, DIL KA MIJAAZ are pick of the lot. The cinematography conveys aptly the ‘aura’ of the haveli and conversely the ruggedness of the dry bad-lands; all in natural hues.
Coming to the main leit-motif, if one may call it so, is the wonderful usage of the beautiful language of Urdu. Indeed, this is MAJORLY an Urdu film. (It seems the prints in India have literal translations of the language; unfortunately this seems to be lost in the US prints because of the ‘unofficial’ translation which is bad to put it politely.) Dr. Bashir Badr’s nazms are used here and they are a treat to the soul. Urdu is used here in couplets, in dialogues, and in the lyrics. That Gulzar is in top form here is saying the least. He has the audacity to write ‘HORN OK PLEASE’ and the sensitivity to write ‘JAGAAVE SAARI RAINA’ with such efficiency that it baffles us. Of course, Babban has his own brand of poetry, a ‘nayab’ one after Muniya aggressively makes out with him: Life mein peheli baar Samajh mein nahin aa raha hain ki mein leke aa raha hoon ya deke!

Here’s a sample of Gulzar’s wonderful metaphors – of likening of the situation of a man in love to that of twilight..
Hamaari haalat pe kitta rove hai – How deep is the tearful cry
aasman bhi tu dekh leeyo – of the sky
ke surkh ho jaavein us ki aankhein- that its eyes get reddened
bhi jaise jaise ye din dhale hai – as and when the day drowns into dusk via twilight..

It does seem the film slackens the pace a bit during its almost 150 minutes running time-span but there is so much to be absorbed in the meat of the script that one can gladly forgive this minor ‘flaw.’ Also, the shoot-outs/action scenes are quite poorly done with bullets hitting everyone but killing no one. Though Naseer’s character talks of the 7 stages of love (dilkashi – attraction, uns – attachment, mohabbat – love, akidat – trust, ibadat – worship, junoon – obsession, maut – death) the characters’ states-of-mind do not seem t convey so. It seems some stages get skipped! Chaubey however displays fine hold on the milieu and the proceedings and is quite wonderful in his visualization of many scenes. He shoots the ZABAAN JALE HAI song with Naseer reciting it at the mushaira without any background music and the effect is superb. Wish he had done away with Rahat Fateh Ali Khan’s voice here and simply gone ahead with Naseer’s. The effect would have been two-fold. He conveys his homage to Ismat Chugtai in what is a superb, remarkably shot silhouette-scene that forms the crux or ‘maqta’ if you will for this movie in totality. And this is a damn bold statement or shot for a commercial Hindi film.

It is rare for such films to get made in the Bombay Hi-fi of today; those that do not bow to the crore-diktats currently running wild in this supposedly ‘art-first’ industry. This is a fine marriage of words and the visuals. Not everybody will go ‘muqarrar irshaad’ on this film but for those who are interested, go for it.

“I don’t remember a more useless female lead character in a major actor’s film”

i don’t know what abysmal levels this movie achieved, but in recent times, the female lead in saguni was an utter wasteful exercise in character writing. she probably appeared in 4 to 5 frames excluding the songs, something like – meeting/stalking, love confession, break up and reunion

Baddy, Bhagyaraj was extremely competent at spoon feeding which was a required component in the 80s. Things have changed now with all the zany editing, back and forth flashbacks etc which does make it a very uncomfortable viewing experience for some. For instance my dad hates the newer techniques directors use and much prefers a linear narrative. Also, Bhagyaraj’s screenplays always had a higher emotional quotient (the Thai kulam sentiment) which made him a big hit with the public. These and other factors, such as being a common man, made him a success. In my books, he was a masala creator who knew how to mix all the ingredients to deliver hits. He also had usually good music to rely on as well. I think the praise for the screenplays is more due to the number of hits he delivered.

Shankar: but why the particular epithet of best screen play writer in india? I had heard of it couple of times and read the description in hindu too few years ago and was extremely surprised.

I do agree that linear films made it easier for emotional connection. but that wasnt his speciaility or anything. He did do a lot of movies on the single theme of bigamy, atleast that is what i can recall him by.

Did the ghost of Bhagyaraj Movies Past just get ressurected around these parts? Then please allow me to throw my 2 cents into the hat:

Bhagyaraj, personally, represented my last serious dalliance with Tamil movies, before increasingly inept film-making, disjointed screenplays, parallel comedy tracks (what does it say when Kounds/Senthil routines now play better as YouTube clips then they ever did as part of the whole film?) and woeful action helped migrate my tastes over to Hollywood, where I got my Masala “fix” through action movies starring uzi-wielding musclemen. After all , if I wanted lazy writing, a superhuman hero and copious amounts of sexism, what better way then to catch a Stallone/Schwarzenegger/Van Damme/Seagal flick? Hell, they even threw in the odd bare tits and ass for my continued titillation.

I never missed a Bhagyaraj movie, as they represented as Shankar mentioned the right mix of masala ingredients. You didn’t need to invest too deeply in the “classy” elements as you would in a Kamal starrer (The Plot! The Prosthetics! The Performance!), nor buy into the “mass hysteria” that often accompanied a Rajini starrer.

His everyday man persona with those nerd glasses and nails-on-chalkboard voice coupled with some pretty sharp zingers delivered via his often funny and sharply observed dialogues is what made (most) of his movies go down like an ice cold lemonade on a hot day

And give him this: The man was a wizard at extracting some incredible performances from his leading ladies, while his scripts right up to Sundhara Kaandam gave his heroines the sort of roles today’s 3 scene-2 song-1 jiggling ass Item Numbers Cavorting With Hacks can only dream of.

@venkatesh
Reg. Bhagyaraj, I agree. There are only two film personalities in the 80s who I can confidently claim as having(mostly) unfailingly entertained me, and Bhagyaraj is one of them.(The other being Ilayaraja) Not that I don’t love Kamal, Rajini, Balachander and Manirathnam(or even Goundamani for that matter), but the best works of these artists were, to me, spread out over a wider era in time.

@Shankar
I don’t think spoon-feeding is quite the right term for Bhagyaraj’s narrative style. Witty exposition would be a more accurate description. Be it the climax scenes in “Andha Ezhu Naatkal” ,the scene in which Venkat justifies the act of giving love-letters to Radhika before giving one to her in “Indru Poi Naalai Vaa” or the way Bhagyaraj explains why he did not shout when he is seeing a girl undressing in “Chinna Veedu”, these are all screen-writing gems of the kind that we rarely see these days in Tamil cinema. Bhagyaraj’s dialogues were sharp like a surgeon’s knife and, indeed, he wielded them in that manner, to precise effect and to describe extraordinarily complex ideas on screen in a manner that a layman could not only understand, but also appreciate and take a stand on. Not a mean feat, my friend, not a mean feat.

@rangan
I am nobody to school you in film appreciation, but I hope, someday, you will watch/rewatch a bunch of old Bhagyaraj film DVDs and realize how underrated he was. In both scene conception as well as dialogues, Bhagyaraj, to me, was one the foremost creative brains of his time. I do believe that, in a way, the very fact that his films were so damn consistently entertaining made people wary of heaping higher praise upon his works.

@Rajeev Harikumar Just to add to what BR has said about logic realism, I’d cite the example of fantasy. For example, Tolkien is famous for writing a story world which is internally consistent. Not many plot holes given the internal logic of his universe. Whereas Rowling, who created a pretty imaginative world, wrote a story with far more internal contradictions (for example, her time travel conceit strained the story to breaking point, because nobody seemed to think of using those to stop murders / in court trials etc.) Even for a children’s novel, those kind of contradictions are a cardinal sin (to some readers like me 🙂 )

So you can write a story that is logical without being realistic. And connecting it to Tamil cinema, you’ll often find movies where the hero lays 30 people flat without special fighting skill, without any background that suits it, simply because he is … well… junior dhalapati or whatever. But outside Indian cinema, that kind of machismo is (often) explained away as being part of a commando unit or a professional fighter. Still not realistic but a bit more logical.

Bhagyaraj deserves the credit he gets because his screenplays always had the right plot twists at the right time, his characters had clear motives (which made them more relate-able), and most importantly, he wasn’t a lazy moviemaker, no matter how ordinary the scene. All this managed to make his masala movies less of a mindless entertainment in a sea of mediocre ones.

@Shankar – A lot of people think that screenplay is only about arranging scenes, be it in linear or non linear fashion. I am afraid it’s lot more than that. It’s about telling a story through images, and that is the purest screenwriting. Before talkies were introduced, people used to write scenarios( as they were called). It was all about telling stuff without telling, if you know what I mean.

Most of Indian cinema is all “talkies”. Kamal Hassan once said that play an Indian movie on Radio and you wouldn’t find the difference.

Bhagyaraj might have been a good dialogue writer, but he wouldn’t and couldn’t have made movies with brilliant images. He is a decent writer as brangan said, but nothing extraordinary. His movies wouldn’t stand the test of time. They are too dated.

Shankar: I agree that “he was a masala creator who knew how to mix all the ingredients to deliver hits.” What I don’t get is his elevation to “the greatest,” as if no one before or since has written entertaining screenplays. Yes, he had a good sense of comedy, etc., but still… the best? Please not that I am not saying he was bad. He was good at a certain kind of thing, no doubt. But… the best?

If you take the genre of “family-friendly morality plays”, for instance, Visu wrote some very good screenplays — but no one talks about those. Now, you may personally not like that *type* of movie or those contrivances, but you have to admit that as screenplays — as in how the plot is set up, how the characters come and go, how one scene leads to another, how the interval “punch” is set up, how the twists unfold — some of the Visu films were pretty rock-solid.

KayKay: About the leading ladies bit, the late 70s and 80s were a reasonably fertile ground for actresses. It’s only in the pure masala films that the heroines had nothing to do, but otherwise, even Ambika and Radha (as opposed to the more “serious” Revathy and Suhasini) had meaty roles in quite a few films. Those were the days a heroine could be caught doing films like “Ambikai Neril Vandhaal” or “Nilavu Suduvadhillai” — and I take the names of these films because these were relatively junky movies (compared to the more sophisticated 70s/80s KB films), and even these made space for the heroine. In general, even apart from Bhagyaraj films, heroines did have roles those days. (This is not to knock the fact that Bhagyaraj did write good female roles — after all, his major appeal was to the “thaikulam.”)

Prakash: I don’t see anything resembling “extraordinarily complex ideas” in those films/scenes. Not that complexity is a must to deem someone great, but I just don’t see Bhagyaraj as anything more than a good and entertaining storyteller (which is no small thing). But he’s not an ideas man, in my book — like KB or Mahendran or Mani Ratnam or (later) Selvaraghavan.

sara: his screenplays always had the right plot twists at the right time, his characters had clear motives

But this is true of a lot of other writer-filmmakers as well. So why this epithet of “the best”? Again, I’m not knocking Bhagyaraj as a bad writer-director. It’s just that I don’t see the fuss about him being the greatest and all that.

sanjay2706: I am not even getting into visuals versus words. I am only saying that even in the 70s/80s, there were others writing good screenplays alongside Bhagyaraj.

Also, I disagree that telling a story through images is somehow “purer.” It is just another way of telling stories. Films are an audiovisual medium, not just a visual medium, and I, for one, would think it a great loss if we lost out on good dialogue-writing in the name of “pure cinema.”

I think bhagyaraj was very much a filmmaker of his times and not having brilliant images , well i guess it was pretty much true of much of the directors of the time. Also i felt that that bhagyaraj the actor always restricted bhagyaraj the writer and filmmaker. When he concieved films for other actors : Kamal Haasan\Amitabh Bachchan in oru kaithiyin diary\aakhree rasta he did movies that was radically different from his ithu namma aalu \ sundarakandam brand of films and they were very much visual in terms of story telling. I was never much a fan of his acting abilities as he had a very limited range as an actor and he had this set image of the family hero and i guess the filmmaker in him suffered because of this as it was always in service of that image.. Its true that much of his films seem dated and his kind of aesthetic sensibilities will not perhaps work today.I agree with somebody who said that his screenplays were well written ones with good dialogue and weren’t lazy in any manner compared with much of the screenwriting existed even then, not to mention now. Yeah perhaps they were much more calculative in appeasing to the populist sentiments of the masses, but can anybody blame him for that!.

Brangan, I can understand the distinction you are making with regard to movies as audio visual medium but i disagree with your assessment of them. I too like to here good lines in a movie. But when you compare a movie like 2001 space odyssey or Blade runner with a Rio bravo or His girl friday(All of them favorite pics of mine and i believe critics would rate them as equally good) . where the formers completely moves through images and the latters pretty much only through dialogue. I find the former a more purely cinematic experience , while the latter , however enjoyable they may be i really don’t get that feeling . I always felt that excessive dialogue always spoil the cinematic feel for me, if you can understand what i mean , makes them very stagish as if those films are better suited for stage and the cinematic medium does not reach its full potential and gets shortchanged in the process.There can be cases like the scorsese pics where the visual and talkie parts combine together to provide an altogether different feel, but if i have to make a choice for pure cinema, i will always choose a 2001 over his girl friday.

Geez, that Koperundevi thing in Veeram sounds like the laziest and dumbest screenwriting ever. The new girl could have at least resembled previous girl, or have had a demeanor reminiscent of her. Anything but “she had the same name.” Masala films don’t HAVE to be this stupid to be entertaining!

Off Topic: Since you write for “The Hindu” ( or any other newspaper), is there a restriction/expectation to be politically correct? I saw a comment on the Hindu review which said something like ” why is Hindu mentioning caste names in review” and another hailing the “unbiased Hindu newspaper review”. Since your review is seen as the newspaper’s opinion on the movie, is there any expectation not to be politically incorrect? Just curious.

“her time travel conceit strained the story to breaking point, because nobody seemed to think of using those to stop murders / in court trials etc.”

That’s because in Rowling’s universe, the only occasion of time-travelling takes place in ‘The Prisoner of Azkaban’, and there, it IS used to stop the killing of Buckbeak as well as Sirius Black. Also, in her universe, time-travelling can be done only with the time-turners, which can be used only for short-term time-travelling, as is mentioned even in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_objects_in_Harry_Potter#Transportation). So, one cannot use it to undo any and every past wrong. Finally, Hermione clearly mentions in ‘The Prisoner of Azkaban’ that time-turners are kept under guard at the Ministry of Magic and are given out very selectively and carefully, so it’s not as though anybody can get hold of one and use it as he/she pleases. So, I think Rowling handled the time-travelling business in her books pretty well.

Plus, in ‘The Order of the Phoenix’, the entire stock of time-turners at the Ministry of Magic is smashed in the battle between Harry and his friends and the Death Eaters, and preparing those devices are difficult and time-consuming. That, I think, is another reason why in books six and seven, there are no mentions of time-travelling.

@Rahini: I started the whole Bhagyaraj “thing” – i believe i said “there is a no one better than Bhagyaraj when it comes to emotional continuity of the film.” And i think that still stands. Never said he is the best or anything.

What i mean by Emotional Continuity is – The logic of a scene ,however outlandish is true to its context and within the universe of the film. In all his good films (upto Sundara Kaandam) – within the world of the film what the character does is completely realistic and its written in a way that is relatable. The motivations of the character, the way he/she behaves “feels” true.

In terms of his screen writing lots of good points in the entire discussion , however, as someone else said , his screen plays were never lazy , not complicated or with new ideas , but never lazy and vastly entertaining , same goes with Visu. I can still watch “Samsaram adhu minsaram” anytime (which has one of the better endings in such family stories).

Additionally, i believe Bhagyaraj, Visu films are less dated than the earlier films of KB.

@rangan” I don’t see anything resembling “extraordinarily complex ideas” in those films/scenes. ”

I know, which is why I told you to watch them again, in the hope that realization sinks in. 😉

But on a more serious note, I suppose we are getting into a clash of POVs again. 🙂 So let me explain my POV with an example. In “Andha Ezhu Naatkal”, the complex idea I was referring to was, in Bhagyaraj’s simplified nutshell: “One man’s lover can become another man’s wife but the reverse must not be allowed to happen”. However, the genius of Bhagyaraj is that ,in the style unique to him, he first crafts a compellingly moving narrative around the lover Palakkad Madhavan which leaves the audience in little doubt as to where their sympathies should lie. And then you get the husband’s character, wonderfully underplayed by Rajesh, who painstakingly lays out the motives behind his decision to reunite the lovers, while all the time unraveling his non-existent screenplay.(BTW, I see this “screenplay-vs-reality” conceit too as the product of a creative mind that was ahead of its times, especially seeing how masterfully Bhagyaraj had pulled it off). And then, just as the audiences are lured into a false sense of business-as-usual and new-age pushing-the-envelope bullshit, Bhagyaraj pulls the rug from under their feet and revisits that thin line between what is right and what is easy by analysing the moral and ethical hazards involved and the consequences of his decision not just for the two lovers but also for the husband and his family.

In the end, the movie is complex not because of the decision taken by Palakkad Madhavan in the climax, but in the fact that Bhagyaraj had managed to explore so many facets of both sides of this intricate dilemma so convincingly without painting any one side/character in a deeper shade of grey.

Bhagyaraj was not as great an exponent of lighting or camera angles as, say, some one like Mani Rathnam, and his visuals may hence lack the finesse found in a Mouna Raagam, but he had a knack for writing great scenes and dialogs, that were in-your-face and yet struck deeper than what they appeared initially.

You could be forgiven for calling that masala, for it was masala…..but for a more discerning audience.

I am writing this clarification because I did a quick “Ctrl+F” and found that you are under the impression that someone is trying to elevate Bhagyaraj as the “Greatest” director or whatever while, in reality, all the references to the words “Great”/”greatest” in this page in the context of Bhagyaraj have been made by….you. 😉

The rest of us have merely been saying that, what Bhagyaraj was good at, his style of story-telling deserves greater appreciation than a mere “Yeah, he was alright, I guess” and more along the likes of “He was a creative film-maker who was a master at what he did and his films were not merely entertaining, but entertaining in a unique way and this uniqueness marks him out as one of the top creative brains of his era”.

Rahini David: It’s regularly trotted out that he is the best screenplay writer, and I was just continuing a thread that’s been on other posts before. (The old-timers have participated in some of these discussions.)

Srini: No.

venkatesh: You first say “i said “there is a no one better than Bhagyaraj…” and then you say “Never said he is the best or anything.” So which is it? 🙂

“Additionally, i believe Bhagyaraj, Visu films are less dated than the earlier films of KB.”

Oh certainly. When I speak of KB’s greatness, I refer to the early 1970s through the mid-1980s, roughly the time between “Aval Oru Thodarkadhai” and “Sindhu Bhairavi.” The ones before are more dated and the ones after don’t really work for me.

Prakash: What you call a “complex idea” I call regressive “thaali sentiment.” (Though for that time, I guess everyone thought like that, so it wasn’t regressive.) The power of the thaali to “own” a woman, etc, that once the thaali is hung on someone’s neck they cannot be anyone else’s. (This same idea was behind “Naan Paadum Paadal” as well.) The way I define a complex idea is through a similar situation in “Mouna Raagam,” where the thaali isn’t enough to own or conquer a woman, where she still rebels about spending the night with a strange man.

Plus, whatever you describe afterwards is basic screenwriting. If you have an idea, you have to flesh it out through 2.5 hours, and that’s what writing a screenplay is all about. I will definitely agree that his hectoring/message-mongering was easier to take than Visu’s style, as it was done in a lighter, more crafty manner, but all this was done — making all characters of the love triangle sympathetic, etc. — was done way back in “Nenjil Or Aalayam.” (I’m not saying it’s the same story; just this aspect.)

And therefore I’m saying — in continuation with the older threads — that even withing these thaikulam-pandering films, people like Visu and Sridhar did write quite a few well-crafted screenplays.

@Abhirup I warn you this is going to be a long rant. HP is a pet peeve of mine because it was brilliant up to the point of time travel and a sad shadow of what it had been thereafter.

I understand what you’re saying about time travel being used to stop a murder in Rowling’s 3rd book. And that it is only short-term, and kept under control by authorities. And that they were – ALL – somewhat conveniently – smashed up by the sixth book ( 😛 ) and presumably could never be made again (methinks Rowling was busy closing up a gaping plot hole by then). Yet one must ask, is it plausible that the device for time travel was cheap enough and accessible enough that *a thirteen year old got it to study two classes at a time, and held on to it for a whole year*, but it could not be used to stop a long list of murders / tortures within 24 hours after they happened?

It’s not an isolated example of time travel turning out to be so problematic. (Through Rowling is the worst offender by making up a silly incident at the end of the fifth book to get rid of it). It’s known to every fantasy writer and sci-fi writer: don’t make time travel possible because then it destroys the drama of your narrative. Conflicts and regret / tragedy, as consequences of free will and choice, are jeopardized by the idea that you can tinker with the past. The whole point of fiction is that people make wrong choices and bad stuff happens to them and they need to find redemption in the future, not in the past.

Rowling’s gift is that she’s a brilliantly inventive author, but her crushing weakness is she lacks systemic thinking. She’s very good at micro – magical creatures, the progression of the plot through school year, twists and turns etc. but terrible at macro (how Ministries function, how time travel, truth potions etc. would really be used by authorities). And I believe she would have done very well to not take her plot to a global scale of national domination / ministries etc, and kept it to a local school level. She invents too much stuff that’s too convenient, too quick, too short-cutty in the world she wants to write about. It ends up boomeranging to destroy her own stories. (Luck potion, I’m looking at you).

Nevertheless, illogical and contradictory or not, her novels succeeded because of her vivid imagination and the messianic narrative. (Which also poses some problems. If everybody could just die for someone else to protect them physically, then her main villain would have been stopped long ago. Surely it didn’t take years and years of killings for one person to throw themselves across another and be killed). Even for a children’s novel, she was never content to leave a spiritual benefit be a spiritual benefit; simply too keen to tie it to an immediate physical victory. Even Christ rose after 3 days as spirit, not man, but Harry comes back to life. He has his cake and eats it too, all because the power of love. Logical? No. Super convenient? Yes. She twists her world to make it to what she wants for her plot, which is not the trait of a serious world-builder. At a certain point, great fictions create their own plots, driving the author to sadly watch their characters blunder their way to mixed outcomes.

And before everyone says this is a work of fantasy and ought not to be taken seriously, I have only one word: Tolkien. And for a pure work of children’s fiction, Jonathan Stroud.

@rangan
You missed my point completely. Thaikulam pandering, or choosing to defy it, seems to be your idea of complex, not mine. I am more fascinated by Bhagyaraj’s knack of exploring these topics with a unique combination of wit, sensitivity, nuance and depth.

I think you are too troubled by his positions on these issues that you fail to adequately absorb his deft handling of the screenplay.

As for Visu, I had read your earlier reference to him but deemed it unworthy of dignifying with a response. But since you seem hell-bent on making odious comparisons with a plague-on-both-houses approach, I’ll make my stand clear. If Bhagyaraj had the nimble and sensitive hands of a surgeon, Visu was the butcher with the meat cleaver. Often had much more punch, but incredibly crude and definitely not meriting the same kind of attention bestowed upon Bhagyaraj or Manirathnam.

Just finished watching American hustle, Left me with an exhilarated feeling.Just heard that it has won 6 oscar noms. Absolutely deserving i would say..Agree with you that its twice as more emotional and entertaining than WOWS. Will you be reviewing the film in this columns? . Can’t wait to hear your complete take on it?

@venkatesh, believe me, you didn’t start anything with that Bhagyaraj remark. This has been a discussion on this blog in the past as well. Also, I know where Baddy is coming from. He is referring to what has been usually said at film events and by both film personalities and general public at various times.

Baddy, I’ve always felt that Visu’s movies were the precursor to today’s TV serials! 🙂 Of course, most of today’s serials are written without an iota of common sense and viewer respect and I’m not saying Visu’s were like that. Not at all. Visu’a family friendly morality plays, as you put it, revolving around joint families and such, really seem like the tip off point to some of the “knots” in today’s serials.

Going back to Bhagyaraj, his difference from Visu was that even though there was a strong emotional quotient, he also mixed in all the masala elements. His films were certainly enjoyable and entertaining. That reminds me…I need to go re-visit “Vidiyum varai kathiru” one of these days…at least back then, I recall it being very different from the usual Bhagyaraj formula.

@BR : “there is a no one better than Bhagyaraj when it comes to emotional continuity of the film.”

– for emotional continuity saaar – not Screenplay writing.

Re – “Andha Ezhu Naatkal” – its not a complex idea , its perhaps “regressive” thaali sentiment but that sentiment while completely unacceptable to me has been presented wonderfully well. And within the universe of the movie , you can see its the right thing to do.

B, yes you’re right. I was merely making a direct comparison between how Bhagyaraj wrote female characters and how they’re utilized in movies like the dual crapfests you just reviewed.

I agree that no conversation about Tamil Cinema Heroines of the 80s can or should exclude Ambika and Radha. The Sisters were just phenomenal, terrific actresses with enough sex appeal to navigate both Hero-centric and Serious Dramatic Fare. I’d like to see any of today’s Item Numbers traverse an Engeyo Ketta Kural and Sakala Kala Vallavan in the same year not to mention knocking out a Mudhal Mariyathai and a Jappanil Kalyanaraman in another.

The question would then be if such diverse roles are even available to actresses nowadays in Tamil Movies? Interestingly, the 80s were the last time a movie like Vidhi could be made, ostensibly a star vehicle for Sujatha who, even then, was approaching Senior Artiste status (the movie, incidentally also featured a terrific cameo from Bhagyaraj) which also went on to be a huge hit.

I concede there was nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary in his (Bhagyaraj’s) concepts and themes. Just taking Antha 7 Naatkal as an example again, the whole climax is very much a product of its time (the Thaali Sentiment was cringe-inducing to me even then) and today a dialogue like “My lover can be your wife, but your wife won’t be my lover” would sound pretty retrograde especially given the high incidences of infidelity and divorces in society these days.

But the rest of the movie was extremely entertaining with sharply written characters, great dialogues and some genuine laugh out loud moments, which in essence encapsulates the appeal of Bhagyaraj’s movies for me.

“When a Jilla vs Veeram thread morphs into a Bhagyaraj vs Visu thread it sure becomes much more entertaining.”

Rahini, whatever else did you expect? Most of us can dismiss Macho Poser and Greying Chocolate Boy in one sentence, but can write reams on Bhagyaraj and Visu 🙂

Yeah, even i was surprised the manner in which Brangan responded to Venkatesh’s OT remark. Brangan doesn’t answer queries even if its directly addressed to him and many a times ignore them completely as well. I thought he has some prior grudge with venkatesh and seized the moment.Now its clear why He seems a little touchy about this bhagyaraj thing.

@Kaykay
Macho Poser and Greying Chocolate Boy. Will Pray that the worshipers of these 2 never traces you.And glad to know about your views on the climax of andha 7 naalkal. I was quite shocked when you made that earlier comment about liking Bhagyaraj’s aesthetics..

@MANK
Naah don’t think BR has a grudge against me – not one that i am aware of anyway 🙂 He doesn’t like Bhagyaraj to the extent others/majority do i think, which immediately tells me that he is a “Peter” and needs a dose of some proper old-school Tamizh.

His brain has been addled by talking to all the “peters” in namma Chennai.

Once upon a long time, I would have thought those were merely words of an ignorant outsider, but having acquainted myself with your fact-proof style of forming(and sticking to) your opinions and almost pig-headed immunity to anything that contradicts them, I don’t see any point in trying to disabuse you of your wrong-headed notions.

@MANK, I’m not sure what you are agreeing with here. I wasn’t that surprised by what Baddy said. Also, knowing him, personal grudges (I even suspect if he has one with anyone, for that matter!) will never dictate what he writes.

“Yet one must ask, is it plausible that the device for time travel was cheap enough and accessible enough that *a thirteen year old got it to study two classes at a time, and held on to it for a whole year*, but it could not be used to stop a long list of murders / tortures within 24 hours after they happened?”

It is clearly mentioned in ‘The Prisoner of Azkaban’ that the time-turner was procured for Hermione only after a lot of difficulty. And she had to hand it back at the end of year, because obviously the handling of the device turned out to be even more problematic than imagined. As for why every killing and torture isn’t stopped using the time-turner, it has been stated–once again, very clearly–in the third novel that the use of time-turner is not as simple as turning back the hours and undoing the done thing. Time-related magic is unstable and deadly: Hermione mentions that a wizard or a witch can kill his/her past or future selves when they come face-to-face, for instance. Given these risks, it’s entirely understandable if the authorities didn’t look upon time-turners as a means to correct everything that went wrong in the past. Plus, during Lord Voldemort’s reign of terror, people were being killed or were disappearing all the time, so it was hardly possible, even with the help of time-turners, to stop it all from happening. Lastly, the time-turners can be used to correct things that have happened only in the last few hours, so even the twenty-four hour time span you mentioned is too long. Given that brevity of hours, it’s all the more difficult to check past mishaps using time-turners.

“Through Rowling is the worst offender by making up a silly incident at the end of the fifth book to get rid of it”

Can’t see what’s so “silly” about it. A battle was being fought in the Ministry of Magic, which led to the destruction of many things there, among them the time-turners. Entirely logical and justified as far as I am concerned.

“but terrible at macro (how Ministries function, how time travel, truth potions etc. would really be used by authorities)”

Once again, I don’t see what’s wrong with her descriptions of any of those.

“And I believe she would have done very well to not take her plot to a global scale of national domination / ministries etc, and kept it to a local school level. She invents too much stuff that’s too convenient, too quick, too short-cutty in the world she wants to write about.”

Disagreed completely. I think one of the most brilliant things about the Harry Potter saga, and especially the last four novels, is their depiction of a world in peril, seized by paranoia and beset with attacks from malevolent forces. It makes for very engaging read. I get a palpable sense of the danger her characters are in, and that’s precisely because she upped the ante instead of restricting things to a “local school level.” Thank God she didn’t choose to do something that pedestrian.

“Even Christ rose after 3 days as spirit, not man, but Harry comes back to life. He has his cake and eats it too, all because the power of love. Logical? No. Super convenient? Yes.”

The reasons why Harry doesn’t die are very lucidly explained in the chapter titled ‘King’s Cross’ in ‘The Deathly Hallows’. So, again, I don’t see any “flaw” here.

“And secondly, thank for finally giving a Vijay movie the dressing down that it deserves.”

I understand that the quality of a film is subjective and all, but I must ask, doesn’t a film stand/fall on the basis of its own merits? I mean, you may not have liked “Thuppakki” & “Thalaivaa”, and that’s all fine and dandy. But at the end of the day, shouldn’t the quality of a film be judged primarily on the basis of the merits of the film itself?

What can I say? You’ll just have to live with the bitter knowledge that no amount of “facts” is going to sway certain subjective and very personal opinions I have. They’re mine alone and they won’t be tailored to fit your world view. Bummer, I know! Life’s a bitch. Deal with it.

“I don’t see any point in trying to disabuse you of your wrong-headed notions.”

First sensible statement I’ve read in your comments so far. Stick with that and we’ll be fine , boy 🙂

Blame my laziness for not putting across the point correctly. Yeah i too have know Brangan (through his writings) to be fair to his subject matter and not to write based on his grudges or anything. I realize now (after your comment) that the Bhagyaraj being the best screenplay writer thing is a hotly debated subject in the critic circles\film events etc and Brangan has some strong views about it . So naturally when he found or assumed that venkatesh is making a remark in favor of that idea, he made a snappy remark about it.My initial surprise was about the fact that i found him to be grudgy which is not his style at all.Guess now we are clear about what we agree on 🙂

I think Brangan has now had enough tamil education to last a lifetime 🙂 But perhaps i wasn’t really wrong in sensing some grudgness in your relationship with BR ,but just got it wrong from which side 🙂

Since I neither asked nor expressed any curiosity whatsoever reg. the identity of these poor sods, i don’t see why you’re getting all hot around the collars. 🙂

BTW, pig-headedness, though you’ll hate to hear it, is neither as unique or as noble as you try to spin it. 😉 Equally banal is your tendency to pass off these self-acknowledged fringe opinions as common knowledge. So pipe down and take a chill pill. Your opinions are safe. Nobody wants them. 🙂

@MANK
ille sir , no “grudgness” from either side. I am a long-time reader/contributor , so i sometimes have fun at poking him – he usually doesn’t rise to the bait – its all just good innocent fun, nothing more.

You should thank your stars that I am not even half the “worshiper” that you so tirelessly proclaim that I am. If I were, I really could and would hunt you down, you know. Not joking. Take a look at what happened to this poor fella who abused the heck out of Vijay during a live twitter interaction with fans a couple of days back. Furious fans then traced his phone number and address and handed him over to the police. He was subsequently arrested but charges were not pressed since he agreed to tender this video apology to the star.

So, if you understand Tamil, only one request:

Usuppethi Usuppethi oru nallavana theeviravaadhi aakiradheenga. 😉

P.S.Don’t think you are secure if you are living abroad. Where there are fans as crazy as these, there will always be means to get to you.

@Abhirup, I like your in-depth counterarguments. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Ultimately it is a matter of subjective opinion whether the logic and explanations provided by Rowling are plausible or not.

@Rajeev, surely this is more entertaining than a math class! But you’ve stumbled upon a great analogy for the point about logic not being the same as realism – mathematics itself. For example, a perfect circle is logical, but not realistic. It doesn’t exist in real, tangible life. You can’t see one in nature. But as a logical construct, it’s fine.

For someone whose opinion “nobody wants”, I sure do provoke some passionate retorts from you 🙂

Thanks for your concern, but I’m perfectly chilled. You, on the other hand, would do well to check your rising pressure since you started this by posting a snarky comment addressed directly to me using words like “wrong-headed”, “pig-headed” and “ignorant” directly after one of my own where I christened your Screen Inamorata a Greying Chocolate Boy.

While it’s always amusing to throw a few jabs at the Ajith/Vijay Fan Brigade and Apologists for Tamil Cinema, prolonged exchanges with this group quickly devolves into an exercise in tedium, so I’m going to give you a dignified way out of this:

Prove your own point about how worthless my opinions are by NEVER addressing OR responding to any of my comments regarding the Ex-Mechanic henceforth. That’s usually the best way to give my “self-acknowledged fringe opinions” the contempt they deserve 🙂

That frees me to engage in far more productive conversations and YOU to catch the next noon showing of Veeram (don’t forget the hand lotion and wet wipes).

Shankar: Yes, “Vidiyum Varai Kaathiru” was quite different. Among his acting roles, he was quite different in “Kanni Paruvathile” (which had an awesome Shankar-Ganesh soundtrack). He plays some sort of Lothario, lusting after Vadivukkarasi (!), whose husband Rajesh can’t do it anymore 🙂

These are a few of my favourite Raja songs from the non-Peter genre. “Chittukuruvi,” BTW, is IMO one of his greatest all-round albums ever. Everyone keeps talking about “En kanmani” and that’s a great song, yes, but check out this one… Whenever someone tells me Raja cannot do melodies well, I want to point them to the rise at “ennaattam raasathi eva irukka sollu” and the subsequent “adadada maadhulam kaniye.” You can’t compose something like this and not be considered a great tunesmith. Heaven!

Yup, both Kanni Paruvathile and Vidiyum Varai Kathiru fully exploited that pervy side to Bhagyaraj that usually lurked just below his “Nerdy Innocent” persona in his other more popular flicks. I remember how Kanni Paruvathile “tastefully” depicted Rajesh’s impotence by having him experience chest pains just before he and his wife attempt the Horizontal Tango 🙂

And yes, an awesome Shankar-Ganesh soundtrack.

I love “Adada Mamara Kiliye”! What an ebullient number brilliantly rendered by Janaki. Although my personal favourite of Raja’s albums from that period is “Pakalil Or Iravu”. It had SP at both his melancholic (Ilamai Ennum Poonkatru) and joyful (Ponnaram Poovaram) best not to mention Janaki’s gorgeous rendering of the classically-flavoured “Thaamtha Theemtha Aadum Ullam Padum Kaaviyam”.

“Whenever someone tells me Raja cannot do melodies well”….(clutches hand to chest in pain!)…who’s this paruppu? Of all the criticisms to lob at the Isaignani (an almost superhuman prolificacy that diluted his genius, an over reliance on synths from his late 90s output onwards), this brilliant “someone” takes a dig at Raja’s ability to compose great melodies????

this brilliant “someone” takes a dig at Raja’s ability to compose great melodies???? – There is a point of view that IR is just a guitar wielding orchestrator, that he used the orchestra to cover up the inferior quality of his melodies (compared, usually, to MSV). Not that I agree at all, but I am quite familiar with this particular argument; it has been addressed to me before and I do not even bother to refute it anymore because people are usually unlikely to do a double take on their bias. Sorry I popped up in this conversation only at the mention of Ilayaraja but what to do, I personally find THAT far more interesting than either Ajith or Vijay.

@kaykay
Gotta admire the way you chicken out of any serious argument with the by-now shop-worn barrage of mendacious sexual aspersions and insinuations. 😉

For all your fluff on “prolonged exchanges”, it is increasingly apparent that you possess neither the strength of intellect nor the temperament for one. If your sorry existence is alleviated by bad-mouthing me, I can only pity you. I have weathered too many mindlessly negative trolls like you to respond in kind.

And no, that does not mean I will quit pointing out your feeble attempts at obfuscating the line between your “personal opinions” and objective realities. If all you can come up in response is frivolous personal slurs like the ones so far, then more is the pity. 🙂

@rangan
Heartfelt thanks for the lovely songs. It is remarkable how time has done little to dull their beauty. I would like to believe that if there is anything at all that the denizens of your blog share in common, it is an healthy appreciation for the music of the evergreen legend that is Raja. 🙂

Do continue to post any YouTube links of less-known gems of Raja’s that you may be aware of. If only to refresh those times to a whole new generation.

Madan, thanks for that clarification. I continue to be gobsmacked that such an argument even exists against the quality of Raja’s compositions, especially since the whole “using music to cover up lack of a strong melody” is what some people I know personally use as a cudgel to bash Rahman and then back it up by talking about Raja’s infinitely superior compositions and how you can “actually hum a Raja tune” and all that.

“Sorry I popped up in this conversation only at the mention of Ilayaraja but what to do, I personally find THAT far more interesting than either Ajith or Vijay.”

enna kodumai ithu anna. i am just a humble poster\contributor to this blog. En ippadi bhayapadithidangale. Never thought writing posts is such a dangerous business 🙂 Well i did my best to stay out of your way but wasn’t enough i guess. I have begun to doubt that perhaps we are long lost brothers trying to get back together. OK, i stand corrected about you. You are a lover of all humanity and not just one or 2 stars. 🙂 And as you pre warned me about the dire fate awaiting me, i guess you got a little extra brotherly love for me . Thanks bro, peace 🙂

– not to mention he is shown as a “man” by getting control of the bulls and in the beginning is sort of half-dressed. That was a really good movie – don’t forget Bhagyaraj was the friend of the hero – a sacrosanct position . Doubt, if anyone can get away with making a similar movie now.

especially since the whole “using music to cover up lack of a strong melody” is what some people I know personally use as a cudgel to bash Rahman and then back it up by talking about Raja’s infinitely superior compositions and how you can “actually hum a Raja tune” and all that.

– Heard that one too. Goes to show that whether or not IR or MSV or ARR are evergreen, nostalgia-fueled derision of younger generation’s music most certainly is. 😀

@Madan“Sorry I popped up in this conversation only at the mention of Ilayaraja but what to do, I personally find THAT far more interesting than either Ajith or Vijay.”

Add me to that list as well. But since most here, including myself, hold Raja Sir in high esteem and still enjoy his songs immensely, there ain’t all that much dissimilarity of views.

Now, if some buffoon were to come here and call Ilayaraja a tone-deaf schmuck for reasons best known to him and propagate that as some sort of commonly-held perception and go on to hurl vile abuse at anyone who dares to rebut him….you can imagine the uproar for yourself. 😀

Prakash: Point taken, your honour. And that is why, since I have zero inclination of watching either of these two films, I did not comment on this thread before this. I freely confess I find the deification of stars in TN amusing in general (and not restricted to Thala and Ilayam) but it would be pointless for me to poke the diehard fans about it.

For that matter, if a bunch of Raja haters had descended on this or any other thread, I would not have liked to waste my time on arguing with them. My time is much better spent listening to his songs instead.

Even if some buffoon were to make that claim about IR melodies, I would be tempted to point him/her to heavy Carnatic based songs like “Vedham nee iniya nAdham nee” or “RojAvai thAlAttum thendral”, because the ones who make these allegations are most likely classical/MSV snobs and don’t regard folk too highly.

@ Prakash
“YouTube links of less-known gems of Raja’s”

Here’s a couple of songs which you are unlikely to have ever come across unless you are part of the “Hardcore IR fan” group which is, but a minuscule cult these days.

And here’s two more. My last for the day, I promise. Sorry to fans of the two uncrowned superstars of Tamil cinema for smearing the comment space of this blog which rightfully belongs to them, with obscure IR songs, but I don’t know when I’ll get my next chance to peddle these little gems on a widely read blog like this. Plus, I didn’t start it, THE MAN himself did. So here goes.

Madan: I do not even bother to refute it anymore because people are usually unlikely to do a double take on their bias

You said it. I don’t even bother getting into arguments anymore (unless we are discussing a film). They’re pointless. A waste of time. Nobody wins. And you just endure a lot of negative energy, which is very painful.

A friend once said that the reason we in India fight so passionately about public figures/achievers is that we are hardwired to bow before gods, and these people become our gods. And once we begin to look at them as gods (and treat ourselves as followers/disciples) it becomes natural to denigrate other gods, convinced that your “religion” is the only valid one. I thought this was quite an interesting way to look at this.

When I read only BR comments, I thought there were lots of discussions on Bhagyaraj. Well, the history and records will go to say that Bhagyaraj was a good writer and entertainer. At least he didn’t make many craps like others of his time.

to me some of his best films are thooral ninnu pochu, andha ezhu natkal, idhu namma aalu, mouna geetham, etc.. but i also some just average films like veetil visheshanga, aaraaro aariraaro.

@BR :“A friend once said that the reason we in India fight so passionately about public figures/achievers is that we are hardwired to bow before gods, and these people become our gods. And once we begin to look at them as gods (and treat ourselves as followers/disciples) it becomes natural to denigrate other gods, convinced that your “religion” is the only valid one. ”

That’s an interesting take. Wonder why its not so hard-wired in the North then ? Even at the peak of Mr.Bachchan’s Super Stardom (Shahenshah’s release, for example) ., the kind of fervency you see in the South was never there.

As a contrast , when Thevar Magan was released in Madurai, a person was actually knifed in Meenakshi theatre for saying this : “Kamal ku vaazhvu kuduthae Sivaji vaazhgae” : the police. ambulance etc, all came but the screening still continued of course. Good times.

But Bachchan was the one and only right , he was peerless.After Rajesh khanna’s end in mid 70’s to the rise of the khans in the mid 90’s there was nobody on par with him. Unlike in the south were there is always minimum 2, stars who has the same star wattage and are always pitted against one another. I think the fervency increases in that situation.But AB to had his share of fanmaniacs who built temples for him and committed suicide during the time of his near fatal injury as well.

@ venkatesh Maybe there’s also an extra element of subservience in southern culture, because of the higher conservatism. At its heart conservative culture boils down to authority.

Which would explain why we take authority – human or religious – very, very seriously. They become associated with our identity and morality. Any challenge to the authority threatens not just the authority figure, but our very conception of self, culture and all that is good and stable in our world. (Just to state the obvious, I am NOT saying this about myself, in case people are wondering if I carry knives to theaters 🙂

Apadina caro arjun = fring? Anyway….well, he has used so many instruments so I guess you could plausibly make combinations of those like guitar-man, violin and tabla man, flute man, he man, she man, blah blah. Guitar wielding hack is, again, usually a favourite line of attack of the MSV gumbal. Because guitar was used in so many of his 80 classics and because he used guitar very well indeed, they somehow put two and two together and called it, “avanukku guitar mattum dhan theriyum!” 😀

Appo nAmma mattra oru thalathula GVP, Ani ivangaLoda meesicaLam kaNdippadhellAm nostalgia-fueled-derision’ngreL? – Not necessarily, because crap music is also as evergreen as great music. I disliked Anu Malik even when he was ‘current’ and I had not yet heard old songs much, not my fault. 😛 However, if somebody said Amit Trivedi is also just a joke music director, I would start suspecting aforesaid nostalgia-fueled derision.

A friend once said that the reason we in India fight so passionately about public figures/achievers is that we are hardwired to bow before gods, and these people become our gods. And once we begin to look at them as gods (and treat ourselves as followers/disciples) it becomes natural to denigrate other gods, convinced that your “religion” is the only valid one.

– That’s very well put. There is often an aggressive, emotional tone to arguments on the most trivial topics when the participants are India. And going by the behaviour of so called atheist parties in India, maybe the tendency to deify is hardwired too deeply to be negated only by a stated change of religious orientation.

@Madan“I do not even bother to refute it anymore because people are usually unlikely to do a double take on their bias ”

The observation is indeed true, though I do believe that a measured rebuttal sometimes has more benefits than turning a blind eye, though the latter approach is not without its merits.

For one, I have often found that a strong repudiation does help to some extent in alerting other not-so-clued-in readers about the specious nature of the said person’s assertions and expose them to a broader range of views, leading to a more informed evaluation of the subject under discussion.

@rangan“A friend once said that the reason we in India fight so passionately about public figures/achievers is that we are hardwired to bow before gods, and these people become our gods. And once we begin to look at them as gods (and treat ourselves as followers/disciples) it becomes natural to denigrate other gods, convinced that your “religion” is the only valid one. ”

Your friend’s argument sounds alright viscerally, but its narrow base and inference leave it open to accusations of the kind of disingenuousness that I often see in Indian “Secularists”.

A more cogent argument based on a similar premise would go something like “The levels of violent, cruel and generally primitive behaviour in a society roughly corresponds to the depths to which its citizens have been indoctrinated in irrational, supremacist dogmas. The more fanatical these dogmas are and deeper the exposure to them, the more intense would be the consequences while any mitigation in any of the effects will need to be driven by external factors such as wealth, economic prosperity and the accompanying materialism.”

I favour such a line of reasoning since that could credibly account for both this

and

@venkatesh

Pertinent points.

Based purely on my personal experiences, I would rank(in order of decreasing fanaticism) the audiences for Western Pop Entertainment(not just Hollywood), Hindi films, Telugu films and Tamil films in the sequence Tamil>Telugu>>Hindi>West.

For one, I have often found that a strong repudiation does help to some extent in alerting other not-so-clued-in readers about the specious nature of the said person’s assertions and expose them to a broader range of views –

Well, I did get involved in that other thread (ahem) because I felt it was important not to let that kind of point of view go uncontested. But that was an issue concerning equal opportunity and liberty, which, all things considered, is a lot more important than matters of preference in arts (at least that’s what I feel). Sometimes you can just tell from the tone of the other person – especially face to face but even online often times – that he is really not interested in listening to you. One person’s hatred or dislike is not Ilayaraja’s loss, it is that person’s own loss, I can very well live with that.

“Unlike in the south were there is always minimum 2, stars who has the same star wattage and are always pitted against one another.”

True. And the fanaticism this time around is perhaps even more vicious since both AJ and VJ are perceived to be trying to lay claim for the same mantle, that previously wholly held by MGR and then Rajini. So you had Mass and Class for two generations, MGR-Sivaji and Rajini-Kamal… but then you have Mass and Mass in AJ and VJ and no wonder it is a lot fiercer this time. The following article by Sudhish Kamath captures the essence of the competition.

“For one, I have often found that a strong repudiation does help to some extent in alerting other not-so-clued-in readers about the specious nature of the said person’s assertions and expose them to a broader range of views, leading to a more informed evaluation of the subject under discussion.”

Agree there. If it weren’t the case, by the same token, debates and discussions are a pointless exercise. Thoongaravana ezhuppalAm. Thappu illa. It is only with the highly opinionated and thoongarA mAdhiri nadikkara types that there is no point engaging.

@Venkatesh
“That’s an interesting take. Wonder why its not so hard-wired in the North then ? Even at the peak of Mr.Bachchan’s Super Stardom (Shahenshah’s release, for example) ., the kind of fervency you see in the South was never there.”

God, I have broken my head about this so much. I do wonder, if it indeed has something to do with Tamil culture. I personally find that the praises and adjectives used even in ancient Tamil literature are almost always excessive. Everyone is a “Thol pugazhOn”, “mA vEndhan” etc, Over the top glorification and eulogization seem to be part and parcel of Tamil tradition. Someone must do a study on this. And before some tamizh pattrAlar jumps at the opportunity to bash me, let me clarify that I dearly love the language and the literature. My observation is limited to loose usage of superlatives, again IMO strictly. I might even be wrong in generalizing as I have barely been exposed to a fraction of Tamil literature, in which case I would be happy to be corrected. # Abbbba. Hope that gives me some insurance against HCTFs.

Thank God man, you finally agree with me on something. God bless you for that . Oh actually its the second time ., we agreed upon Vikram remember , or rather i agreed with you rather reluctantly 😉 .Its seems that there are things more common between us than we assume Oh by the way great link.

P.S. : Is this Sudeesh the same guy who questioned Vikram’s sexual orientation in one of his film’s reviews(Kandasamy i think)?

@Madan I disliked Anu Malik even when he was ‘current’ and I had not yet heard old songs much

Guess Anu malik wasnt enough of a copycat for you 😉 . But i am absolutely sure that you are a diehard Anand Milind fan.After all anybody who likes IR would immediately love AM.All the super hit songs of AM ,ie o priya priya,tututu tara,dhak dhak ….. has all been copied directly from IR without even a change in BGM, without even a thought about copyright infringement. I dont think IR ever sued in any instance or his permission was taken. The funny thing is that these songs were more popular than the ones that IR composed directly for hindi films

@MANK“P.S. : Is this Sudeesh the same guy who questioned Vikram’s sexual orientation in one of his film’s reviews(Kandasamy i think)?”

The very same. 🙂 He is one of them if-I-can’t-beat-him-“straight”-I-can-at-least-try-to-“queer”-the-guy’s-pitch kinda chap, not unlike kaykay here, save perhaps for a bit more class, though that could boil down to occupational necessity, I guess 😉

MANK: Oh, tell me about Anand Milind, man. The other day they played Aake Teri Baahon Mein on TV and we had to double check on the net (I was sure it was AM and not IR while parents had a doubt). IR is well aware of their ‘work’ and has hinted at it in interviews without naming them. When he was asked in an interview in the run up to Cheeni Kum whether he needed to make any changes to his style for Hindi, he said, “My songs have already worked in a big way in the 1990s when certain people here used a lot of my tunes.: 😀

Arjun, thanks for the “rare cuts” man, although I can take pride in being familiar with at least one of the movies featured and it’s songs, in spite of not being a “hard core IR” fan.

Eera Vizhi Kaaviyangal was easily one of the better offerings in that whole sub-genre of “budding singer/musical” type flicks. For one, it did NOT feature “Mike Mohan” and whatever “Disease Of The Week” climax. It had a wonderfully restrained performance from Prathap Pothan (a rare enough occurrence), a fairly realistic depiction of the difficulties of making it as a professional singer and a wonderful but little-heard soundtrack from IR.

In the spirit of “sharing”, not sure if the below qualifies as a “rare cut” but this is a beautiful love duet from IR for a movie that was never released

@Prakash:He is one of them if-I-can’t-beat-him-”straight”-I-can-at-least-try-to-”queer”-the-guy’s-pitch kinda chap

Ha Ha…. ROFL

I believe It was a big issue at the time with Vikram and his wife barging into the press office and creating a ruckus(Hope youre not planing to do anythin like that) ;). Thanu , the producer of the film had gone on record accusing a certain superstar of conspiring with sudeesh to destroy vikram and the film.At that time many of us had assumed that he was hinting at kamalahaasan, you know their long standing battle over alavandan. But with you talking about his vijay tilt, i guess vijay was the assumed culprit ;). But this one was a quite well analyzed article, yeah and no hints of a vijay tilt.

By the way have you(or for that matter anybody else here) seen kanadasamy. what a movie man 😉 . And did Brangan ever review this masterpiece. I would do anything to get to that one .Knowing Brangan That must be the most entertaining review he had ever written

What could i tell you about those geniuses man 😉 .OMG where should i begin. Well in the case of aake teri bahon mein, they should be excused . It was from vansh which was a remake of mani’s agninakshatram.so they have that as a solid excuse.Not that they ever needed one 😉 . Anu malik atleast composed some original songs, Border, refugee etc (I presume, so , i will not be surprised if proven wrong 😉 ) . But AM doesnt seem to have a single original bone in their body. What is surprising is that IR knew about them and yet did nothing about it, which is so unlike the man . at least the reputation in the press about IR is that of a hardened egoist. Which might turn out to be totally untrue given how truthful these media stories are 😀 Any way perhaps he let it go because he felt it was beneath him or he never had much interest in composing for straight hindi films.

ps: I did read somewhere once that IR had sued a hindi film producer. Dont remember which film was that and was it really about stealing of his songs or some other issue.Does anybody know anything about it ?

@abvblogger – You sir, have only gone on to intensify my hatred of math 😛 But the points that both you and BR bring up do present some interesting counter-arguments to the whole “so-and-so industry’s films are so illogical” rant that I often hear from people.

“By the way have you(or for that matter anybody else here) seen kanadasamy. what a movie man 😉 ”

I did see it …. a few months later when it premiered in TV. Trashy, boring movie but surely not deserving the kind of dubious take-down Sudhish subjected it(or more precisely, Vikram) to.

After Raavanan, I haven’t felt the urge to go see a Vikram movie in the theaters for his sake especially not FDFS. And even after reading Rangan’s startling backstory on Vikram, I don’t think that’s gonna change.

IMO, he needs a very specific kind of author-backed role these days to strike a chord with audiences, the kind that requires an overload of histrionics and/or body mass changes. 😉 Shankar’s Ai looks promising in that regard. 😉 I sometimes wonder whether the screen presence he suddenly seems to acquire in such type of movies is more due to the inherent nature of our eyes to be drawn to things that are freakishly out-of-the-ordinary in our environment than anything remarkable he might be doing on screen.

In every-man roles, he is competent, but hardly anywhere in the range of Kamal… or (sticking my neck out here) even Vijay Sethupathy.

Plus, since his “mass” days are far behind him, there is very little point in hoping to experience the FDFS high usually obtained in mass vehicles.

If you have heard all EVK songs and others like “magizham poove”, maybe you ARE,a “Hard core IR fan”, but don’t know it yet. Send in an application and all 12 of us in the club shall review it and make a decision. I will put in an extra word of recommendation for you having seen the movie (even I haven’t). That will no doubt considerably strengthen your case.

The review was exactly mirroring my my own thoughts in 2 points. firstly The need of a superhero in tamil cinema , i mean when Vijay can fly more than a mile on screen without any superpowers , why the hell do we need a superhero. Secondly the headaches, my god i remember i had such dizziness when i watched the film the first time that i puked more than once.Its much better watching it on video now , a nice guilty pleasure especially with ms shriya around 😉

Oh BTW , that entire sudeesh controversy was discussed threadbare there with mr. Sudeesh himself making an appearance in the comments section vow!. OMG, It seems that Brangan had much more power back then 🙂 .

I dont know if its the correct analogy , but i think vikram’s situation is very much that of Johnny Depp’s in hollywood. Both are character actors who accidentally became superstars and then got burdened by it. Vikram’s situation after Ravanan and thandavam is like johnny’s after the failure of Black shadows and Lone ranger, they are being dissed for the same qualities and pretty much the same roles for which they were applauded and cherished once.The problem with vikram is even more serious because kollywood does not allow the actor to have ‘one for me , one for them ‘ policy.Which i guess was the policy that vikram tried to follow for some time unsuccessfully in the process losing both his credibility as an actor and a star. They just want the star to keep on putting out big blockbusters one after another.Kamal is a unique star who can create great roles and screenplays for himself without any help from anybody. Look how he bounced back with Virumandi after a series of disasters and that too without compromising his integrity as an actor or filmmaker. Vikram lacks that quality. he has also been unlucky with good directors. He teamed up with Mani and the result was Ravanan. BTW i thought his performance in that was much better than AB Jr’s in hindi version. Also his teaming with suseendran was a disaster. Ai seems a promising venture, even with Shankar’s commercial idiosyncrasies involved, i hope it gives him his credibility back.

@ Shankar: Man, that was one song I tried desperately to get for a long time. Unfortunately, I didn’t remember/know the start of the song. All I knew was that there was this fabulous BGM type song in the first half of KSMS that was sung by Raaja. Thanks for the link, and finally a long sought after quest is over!

@MANK“They just want the star to keep on putting out big blockbusters one after another.”

That’s a rather extreme way of looking at it, I think. If stardom and strings of flops don’t gel, Pawan Kalyan, Ajith and Vijay should all have faded long back. The problem, for somebody like Vikram, lies elsewhere. Take films like Anbe Sivam, onaayum aattukuttiyum, pudupettai or Aaranya kaandam. All fared well below avg. at BO with the last three being complete wash-outs. But since they were all films that did have an entertainment value that went beyond their immediate BO prospects, the directors/actors involved in these films still managed to sustain some goodwill and buzz around their names. Now take Vikram’s long list of flops after Anniyan and try to recall one similarly noteworthy film amongst them. IMO, there hasn’t been even one(Even DTM which ran decently was in no way a remarkable film). That, I feel, has been his undoing. He has been a bit unlucky, no doubt, but his script selection should also be faulted. Reg. raavanan, he was way better than AB jr., but surely that is setting a rather low bar for a compliment. 🙂

I too await Ai with some hope. Shankar can be trusted to entertain, if nothing else. I also expect he’ll enable Vikram to play to his strengths.

What is surprising is that IR knew about them and yet did nothing about it, which is so unlike the man . at least the reputation in the press about IR is that of a hardened egoist. – I don’t think people in the Indian music industry really sued each other and all that at that time. Thailavar Deva would have gone bankrupt if that had been the case. Azhagu Azhagu is almost a note for note lift of Dilbar, to cite just one example. 😛

I have heard many Rafi vs Kishore fights that are every bit as vicious as the ones between Raja-Rahman fans.

– Ermm, reminds me of the times I have got caught on a road commute with colleagues or friends who turned out to be Kishore fans…and had to maintain complete silence as they confidently declared him the greatest/”Kishore da jawab nahi” etc. 😛 Most of these debates arise from our inability or unwillingness to understand how subjective music comparisons are.

@venkatesh, I suppose you do know that Nanum oru thozhilali was started in 1980, but got delayed and finally got released in 1986. The previously shot scenes were interspersed with new takes (in the same costumes, locations etc). Throughout the whole film, it is really disconcerting to watch since the color tone is different and the actors look different as well between the old and new.

Shankar : I knew about the delay in the film but i guess my point is – Nayagan basically coming out of nowhere – usually you have directors, actors slowly working their way to a masterpiece ., this just exploded with no precursors to it. I am just surprised , is all

Yeah, but Vikram was never a star in the league of Ajith , vijay or Pawan ,may be for a short period, But he couldnt sustain a mass base for long.He had a big gap between movies post annyan and had only 3 releases in next 5 years or so. His movies were getting delayed too much. Do you think whether there was consp.\politics in the industry that stopped him at the height of his career?.It was hard to believe resourceful producers like A.M. ratnam finding it difficult to complete their films.

Agree with you about his choice of films post Anniyan, They were absolutely dumb with no redeeming qualities at all whether they where commercial or off beat. His off beat venture never had the quality of Anbe sivam or Hey ram nor his comm. movies where in the league of thuppaki or Billa or his own dhool and saamy..

Ok, so I’m on a roll here and awash on a tidal wave of heavenly Raja Music thanks to all the posters here, so will just contribute one more. As a movie, the only thing I remember about Kannil Theriyum Kathaigal (having been dragged to it by my parents) was that it attempted the Herculean feat of elevating the one-note Sharath Babu (barely passable even as a supporting actor) to Hero status…and failing spectacularly (maybe he needed a fan base who’d catch 3 shows of every release on the 1st day).

It’s soundtrack on the other hand was a genuine curio: Featuring 5 music directors each contributing a track, the certified hit was Shankar Ganesh’s wonderfully bittersweet “Naan Unnai Nenaichen”. But it’s Raja’s contribution that’s grown on me over the years, the joyful and rare pairing of SPB with both the Queen Bees of Playback Singing of that Era:

“in many a case, it’s advisable to shut your eyes and just listen to the song”

Shankar LOL! Truer words were never spoken:-) Honestly, man that’s my default mode when seeing my fav songs of the ’70s and ’80s on YouTube. The sheer waves of heavenly numbers by MSV and Raja that were cruelly dashed on the rocks of Awful Choreography, Eye-Scorching Costumes, Weird Hairdos and Cringe-Inducing Close-Ups is downright criminal!

Second, as a thumb rule, the tracks he composed for title music are worth highlighting. They tend to get forgotten over the years for usually no other reason than that there is no specific film situation to relate them to. But musically they may be just as interesting. Arjun just posted the Vikram title song in the Ilayaraja group. It’s an incredible track, hardly bows to Vanithamani or Meendum meendum vaa, which are much better remembered as of today.

Poongatrile, the song accompanying the title roll of Paatu Paadava is also a wonderful track.

@Madan, I was just going to post the Pattu Padava track since it is one of my favorites among the other hit songs from the film. The song came out during the Avatharam time frame and you can see that in the arrangement of this song too.

Actually I recall reading that Raja started the trend of having a song for the titles in lieu of BGM. Also, when he started singing those songs, the producers got superstitious and would often insist on him singing the title song. His title songs have always been popular….Nenjathai Killathe is another example.

@MANK“Yeah, but Vikram was never a star in the league of Ajith , vijay or Pawan ,may be for a short period, ”

Yes, exactly. My point in bringing them up was that since they were “pure” mass stars with large and resilient enough fan-bases, they could emerge out of these extended BO droughts relatively unscathed or even bigger than before. But since Vikram was more of an actor-who could-also-carry-commercial-films-with-a-bit-of-mass, he could not pull off similar feats of endurance. If he had not derailed early, my opinion is he would have achieved a similar(maybe somewhat more given that his acting abilities are better) BO reach as Suriya, who, despite giving “mass” hits regularly has never managed as wide and deep-rooted a fan-base as the current big two.

“He had a big gap between movies post annyan and had only 3 releases in next 5 years or so. His movies were getting delayed too much. Do you think whether there was consp.\politics in the industry that stopped him at the height of his career?”

Possible, but my view is that the much bigger problem was what I have stated above. To illustrate with a different example, take Mahesh Babu’s record in 2006-2010. It is even worse than Vikram’s. After the blockbuster Pokiri in 2006, Sainikudu in the same year was an epic flop, Athidhi next year also flopped. Then he, for some strange reason, took a 3 year break to bring out another colossal flop called Khaleja. Effect of the 4-year vanvaas on his stardom. Zilch. Dookudu was a big hit after that and Mahesh Babu was back in business just like that. Compare that with Vikram’s struggles post-Anniyan.

Yeah, the sheer daredevilry on display in that Vikram title song. Eclipses “Meendum meendum vaa” and perhaps even “Vanithamani” for me.

Not a rare or forgotten song by any means, but in the spirit of “Malarum ninaivugal” for some of the older folks here, let me share this. As always, shutting eyes is advised unless one wishes to take in the sight of the rare beauty that was Shoba. Beautiful singing by Yesudas and Shaliaja.

So, there is an interesting back story behind the Vikram title song. Most of the songs had been composed for Vikram and apparently Kamal was still working on the title shots since he wanted a wow factor. There was going to be more graphics (similar to the Viduthalai title sequences, which is one reason it got dropped) and he wanted an different experience. So, apparently (this is all hearsay from good sources, mind you) when he met Raja, the man asked him to not worry, go get lunch and be back at Prasad after that. When Kamal got back, the song had been composed and was ready to be recorded. Raja insisted that Kamal himself do the singing…and the rest is history. I love the female chorus and the rappish nature of the song.

Shankar: I didn’t know this story, thanks for sharing, very interesting.

Yeah, love the female chorus. The harmonies on “en veerame vaagaiye…” are also great. But my favourite part of all is the monster chords on “engum sellum vinnai vellum/ uravugal enakkena irundhadhu”…amazing stuff, like acid jazz before the fact.