Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

nickdaisy:Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

No more diesel boats in the US. Pretty much all of your other points are as well informed.

Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

OscarTamerz:Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Naritai:OscarTamerz: Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Also, aircraft carriers are ships, not boats. Subs are boats, but not ships. My fil was very clear on this, ships float and boats submerge. This would include frigates as ships, like the ones he served on.

Naritai:OscarTamerz: Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Lewiston, ID is the most inland deepwater port in the western US. Neither that nor the submarine testing facility on Lake Pend Oreille are secrets.

lack of warmth:Naritai: OscarTamerz: Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Also, aircraft carriers are ships, not boats. Subs are boats, but not ships. My fil was very clear on this, ships float and boats submerge. This would include frigates as ships, like the ones he served on.

Actually, it doesn't have to do with the fact that they submerge. It's a hold-over from back when submarines were small, and rightly classified as "boats" and not as ships due to their size. As subs got bigger , the name stuck because of tradition more than anything else.

nickdaisy:Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

Terrorists aren't the only threat in the world. If we wound up in a shooting match with China those subs would probably see more action than the carriers.

lack of warmth:Naritai: OscarTamerz: Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Also, aircraft carriers are ships, not boats. Subs are boats, but not ships. My fil was very clear on this, ships float and boats submerge. This would include frigates as ships, like the ones he served on.

The original official unofficial threshold was, it had to have two masts to be a ship. This meant brigs, sloops, and corvettes were ships, but most pinnaces were boats.

/periaugers are normally boats, they just happen to have two masts - but they're flat-bottomed, so you can eliminate them under a no-keel clause

leevis:nickdaisy: Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

Terrorists aren't the only threat in the world. If we wound up in a shooting match with China those subs would probably see more action than the carriers.

nickdaisy:Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

Do you know how diesel subs work? They are littoral, and thus, can't really travel very far without surfacing and running on diesel to charge their batteries. Makes them very detectable. Nuclear can go down and stay down. And while not as quiet as a diesel on battery, it's quiet enough.

ThatBillmanGuy:nickdaisy: Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

Do you know how diesel subs work? They are littoral, and thus, can't really travel very far without surfacing and running on diesel to charge their batteries. Makes them very detectable. Nuclear can go down and stay down. And while not as quiet as a diesel on battery, it's quiet enough.

leevis:nickdaisy: Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

Terrorists aren't the only threat in the world. If we wound up in a shooting match with China those subs would probably see more action than the carriers.

You're trying to reason with somebody who is willfully ignorant. Give it up, they're not going to change their fantasy

I tried very hard to get a job out there. I wanted to start my farm while I was still in the middle of my career, and it would be easy way out there in the wilderness. Finally, about 2003, I cornered the Director of Bayview when he was visiting Carderock Lab in Maryland. I was working an Innovation center project at the time. I told him how badly I wanted to transfer out there. He told me that once the SSN-21 test work was done, he had no idea what they would have left to do. He couldn't assure me I'd have a job out there for long. Later they threw them a bone and gave them a sub scale DD-21 boat drone to play with to keep them alive. The place really has outlived it's usefulness. It'll go in the next round of base closings.

Carderock in Maryland is also beyond it's sell by date. It was a great facility during the high stakes, super power cold war, but there's really no use anymore for its facilities. They haven't designed a Navy ship there in years. The DDG-51 class was the last, I think. Maybe some Seawolf/Virginia Class stuff. Everything since then has been farmed out to contractor facilities. Australia designed the LCS's. DDG-1000 was taken away from Carderock and handed to contractors to design and build. Which personally screwed me over since I was helping design the ship's deck systems. The Tow tank and Wave tank don't get used. (except for the International Human Powered Submarine Races they hold each year in the tow tank).

Fun Fact: Wikipedia did an analysis of where most of their Contributor web traffic was coming from. Carderock was number three. Mostly spent updating sports entries. That's how bored out of their skulls the scientists and engineers are down there. Carderock has powerful protectors in Congress, but it doesn't change the fact they ain't doing much of anything there at the moment....

LOL, I was hoping this would be kept a secret. Pend O' reille is an amazing lake. Lake CDA get's all the attention but if you want to escape Pend O' reille is a god spot.I did my first off road triathlon up there. My first Xterra was swimming in 58 degree water for a mile.I grew up mountain biking up there, super fun trails and always some sort of wildlife encounter. I had a giant owl attempt to land on my head once.My sis has a boat docked in Bayview...which is an interesting town in it's own way.

nickdaisy:Waste of money. Shut the program down and send the cash to schools, the debt, and roads.

Subs are virtually useless against terrorists and we have enough land launched ICBMs to blow any state away that threatens us. Keep a few diesel powered ones for inserting SF types, and get rid of the rest.

Okay, okay, since you protest I'll allow a half dozen of the ballistic ones as a nuclear deterrent, the way the Brits use 'em. But sink the rest.

Military industrial complex boondoggle.

Dumb idea is dumb. Attack subs maintain freedom of the seas by ensuring the Chinese and Russian navies can't fark around and close off vital chokepoints like the Straits of Malacca. The entire world economy is based on the U.S. Navy ensuring freedom of the seas (90 percent of all international trade goes by ship). If you're gonna get rid of nukes, far better to get rid of the land-based ones, which are far more easily neutralized and interdicted than stealthy boomers. With carrier-killer missiles getting to be more of a threat every day, subs are MORE important than they were 20 years ago.

Terrorists should be dealt with by police; the idea that terrorists are a threat to anything but the countries where they're involved in civil wars is the REALLY dumb one.

Naritai:OscarTamerz: Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Ocean-going ships can travel up the Columbia and Snake Rivers to Idaho. Lewiston, Idaho, is the farthest-inland Pacific port.

/I had no idea, either, until OscarTamerz pointed it out and I googled it.

LazyMedia:Naritai: OscarTamerz: Idaho is no more landlocked than Illinois and ocean going ships dock there to drop off and pick up cargo. Of course farktards from gawker aren't going to know that. My cousin's daughter flew off both the Reagan and the Bush and she was the only female F-18 fighter pilot on both boats and did multiple tours of Iraq. When she was on the Reagan whose home port was San Diego instead of getting to live in San Diego she was assigned to China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Range which meant she had to live out in the desert over by the Nevada.

The fact that ocean-going ships can make it to Illinois would mean that it is, actually, less land-locked than Idaho. Exactly where / how can an ocean-going ship sail to Idaho?Side note: the ships that go to Chicago are usually lake freighters, that run Chicago <-> ~Montreal. Large ocean-going vessels can't get upstream of the Welland Canal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Waterway

Ocean-going ships can travel up the Columbia and Snake Rivers to Idaho. Lewiston, Idaho, is the farthest-inland Pacific port.

/I had no idea, either, until OscarTamerz pointed it out and I googled it.

Although some ocean going freighters do manage to make it all the way across the Great Lakes to places like Duluth.

mark12A:Carderock in Maryland is also beyond it's sell by date. It was a great facility during the high stakes, super power cold war, but there's really no use anymore for its facilities. They haven't designed a Navy ship there in years. The DDG-51 class was the last, I think. Maybe some Seawolf/Virginia Class stuff. Everything since then has been farmed out to contractor facilities. Australia designed the LCS's. DDG-1000 was taken away from Carderock and handed to contractors to design and build. Which personally screwed me over since I was helping design the ship's deck systems. The Tow tank and Wave tank don't get used. (except for the International Human Powered Submarine Races they hold each year in the tow tank).

Fun Fact: Wikipedia did an analysis of where most of their Contributor web traffic was coming from. Carderock was number three. Mostly spent updating sports entries. That's how bored out of their skulls the scientists and engineers are down there. Carderock has powerful protectors in Congress, but it doesn't change the fact they ain't doing much of anything there at the moment....

The problem with shutting down Carderock is that if ALL the research is done at commercial facilities, they will be "finding out they can provide the finished product". The DDG 1000 looks to be a pretty good item (if terribly overpriced) but the LCS has been a dog - poorly conceived and a hazard to those who would serve on it. No matter which way you stand on the debate of defense (hate it - can't get enough of it), if WE pay for it, it ought to be good, it should be effective and you shouldn't have to build it again in 2-3 years. Research facilities OWNED by the government are necessary to ensure the product is decent and non-proprietary. Doesn't always ensure that outcome - but it's damn near guaranteed that using only commercial research and development will ensure that WE are paying for it for years afterward and buying new equipment to replace older commercial grade gear every 2-3 years. We pay for a boat several times over the course of it's life.

A revolutionary idea would be to bring a lot of our Government labs into the 21st century.