Posted 5 years ago on Dec. 8, 2011, 2:04 p.m. EST by newearthorder
(295)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I would like to see all returning soldiers should be required to get counseling from a civilian psychologist who is specially trained in this area. Most soldiers have a stigma about asking for help. If they are compelled by official orders they can start down a road to recovery.

The Veterans Administration has some services, but most of the time it is a long drive. Where I live it's at least 50 miles. Bush cut a lot of funding for Veterans.

Many of them have seen a lot of dead bodies and have killed themselves, and they don't really know why they had to do it. The only reason they have is that they were following orders and they were protecting their friends and fellow soldiers.

437 American Soldiers have committed suicide so far this year. That is crazy unacceptable.

I think that would be a mistake. First of all the mood of the nation is considerably more conservative than the values of OWS. Secondly, extremely conservative forces are much better organized than is an oppositionist left, which barely exists beyond OWS. That being the case a Constitutional convention would probably yield drastically further restrictions on civil liberties.

I propose amendment ONLY for preparation for general proposal of amendment at convention. Preparatory amendment to an article 5 must be made, and implimented before general proposals are entertained.

Article 5 is, or should be because it is 5 generations late it should be exercised at the ultimate form of democracy with states voting on amendmends proposed as well as ratifications; as congress repeatedly misinterpreted the constitution and denied applications. America is injured by the severe abridgment of free speech and freedom of the press. Americans must figure out what has been done.

The medias strangle hold on truth must be removed by amendment. Campaign finance must be reformed and voting systems secured before a general convention in order to reflect the intent of the Constitution.

It's a very slippery slope after all. The alledged purposed of what became known as the Constitutional Convention was to reform the Articles of Confederation and there was a debate at the time as to whether the convention had overstepped its mandate.

The Constitutional Convention sure as hell did overstep its mandate, which was simply to reform the Articles of Confederation. It threw the whole document out. If that's not overstepping a mandate nothing is.

And BTW the Constitution was never intended to be a democratic document. The opposition to the Articles of Confederation at the Constitutional Convention was precisely because the Convention found the Articles too democratic. The Federalist Papers, written in defense of the Constitution, repeatedly make the point that the Constitution should be defended precisely because it is a safeguard against democracy. Conservatives are absolutely correct when they argue that the Constitution is a lower case republican document, not a democratic document.

I would agree that the prime function is as a republic, but it's shown that a democratic aspect is empowered to refine the principles of the republic, which is very logical and insightful. Article V shows that.

In order to restore constitutional government, and abolish the 1871 corporate constitution, Article V is required. Facts are here. Ever since the presidentual directive and emergency powers were invented.

However, I must point out there is one Republican that has spoken out against these wars. He warns we should ONLY go to war by Congressional declaration, you know, the way outlined in the Constitution. Fight it, win it, and get it over with. He says when we go to war so carelessly, such as under U.N. resolutions the wars don't end. We get the result we see with our frustrated soldiers.

As sad as this may be, the figures are nothing to be worried about. Why? Not because I am not a patriot, but because statistically the suicide rate is no different from that of the rest of the country, may be a little less.
The strength of our armed forces are thus (approximate figures): Army: 1,000,000 Navy: 500,000 Air Force: 400,000 Marines: 200,000
total: 2,100,000 http://www.ehow.com/about_4595933_what-size-us-military.html
Assuming 400 suicides a year, that's approximately 19 suicides per 100,000 persons.
Incidentally, the rate of suicides among males in America is also 19 per 100,000 persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Now, the 19 per 100,000 persons stats for the country includes people of the age group 1-15 as well as 64+; in these age groups the rate of suicide is very very low. So if you removed this age, the figure would be much higher than 19 per 100,000
So in a way, the suicide rate is very likely less in the armed forces than the general population.
So what's the lesson from this? Learn to use your brains and look deeper into what news you come across. Most news is sensationalized. For example, I could present this same data in a more sensational manner with a headline "Everyday 1 soldier commits suicide".
Most of you get way too emotionally charged without thinking rationally about the data, without trying to dig deeper.
Of course, this does not mean we should not care about our soldiers, we absolutely should. They fight wars which they did not start, risking their lives daily for us. My deepest sympathies for those families who lost someone in the wars.

Since you provided the numbers, I observe that with a total staffing of 2,100, 000, we have great difficulty in putting 150,000 in a remote theater of war (without raiding the National Guard and recycling the same people until they commit suicide).

It is even more remarkable if you consider the huge number (which I can't recall at the moment) of civilian contractors (mercenaries, spies, and logistical support). This would appear, to the casual observer, as being terribly weak and inefficient..imagine $750 billion to provide 150,000 troops. That would be how much each? Couldn't be.

It would be laughable to most small business operators, if they ever stopped to think about it, but they don't. I'll bet you can spin the numbers so they almost make sense? Hey, if we could get those numbers down a little, we could recruit, saying it actually prevents suicide to serve in the military? "You would have to be crazy not to sign up."

1.those numbers are perfectly in order. If you can find me numbers that are different and authentic, I will be happy to eat my words.

the billions spent in war does not just go to each soldier. it goes towards maintaining our presence there, and that includes everything right down to the last pen and shoe lace of our troops. Also reconstruction efforts. But considering that I do not audit the books of the armed forces, I cannot tell you anymore about the expenditure than this.

I don't work for the govt or the Pentagon so I do not have any vested interest in showing the army in a favorable light. I simply pointed out what they numbers say. If that does not appeal to you love for sensationalism, I am really sorry but I cant help it one bit.

The army is not an easy place to be for sure. But apart from the numbers,is there any data about what led these men and women to take such an extreme step?

Is it due to some kind of discrimination or other ill treatment by their peers/superiors? Is it due to the the stresses of combat, both emotional and physical (incl. debilitating injuries), faced by troops in combat zones?

Or are there simply external factors, things in their personal lives unrelated to the military which cause them to do this?

An identification of the root causes might lead to the development of a solution that might save the lives of those who serve.

It will also shed light on whether it is the service, or external factors which are more likely to contribute to someone making the decision to commit suicide.

My point is that people may have a variety of reasons to commit suicide, and they are not always related to their occupation. Before jumping the gun, we need to at least try to figure out what the problem really is.

one really good way to avoid this is DONT SIGN UP. how can you blame anyone but yourself if you purposely volunteer? how can you blame others for what you do to yourself? are you suggesting that at 18 a person does not know what happens in the military? they choose this .. if it was a draft i could agree that something needs to be done but not when its personal choice. if they were dying from drug overdoses you would be preaching dont do drugs. but its military so you preach do the drug(enlist). then want everyone to be concerned about the outcome.

"There are actually a lot of programs out there offering help. But, in typical US fashion, the 'Vet Centers' (federal funded war vet counseling systems and a subsection of the VA), computers do NOT talk to the Veterans Affairs computers. So... a vet goes for counseling, say once a week, for a year, and when He/She sees the psychiatrist, that person has NO IDEA what the hell is going on. Nor does the arm of the VA that awards compensation/disability/etc. And the VA psychologists have no idea what has transpired at the vet centers. And the Vet Centers have no idea what the vet is dealing with at the regular VA."

That all sounds like Reality. A Vet reminded me YEARS ago that Civilian Doctors don't know how to treat returning vets or deal with PTSD and Suicide. Civilian doctors are good they just don't have experience when war breaks out and maybe never.

I was looking into a career change in the 1990s and was interested in counceling for the military. I had a Vietnam Vet friend and anticipated the difficulty of war and suicide in military counseling.

My Vet friends these days have never said anything good about visits to VA for PTSD. I guess they view the VA as something they have to deal with when they want benefits. My guess is that many fellow warriors act like bone-heads that warriors with problems can't trust or talk to.

if only people knew how easy it was really to get a job. Show up to a place of employment, like a construction site, say you will work for free, in an internship to prove your worth, and then after they see your value, they will offer to pay you to keep such a hard and diligent worker around. If you do the extraordinary, you get extraordinary results. Whats the alternative, sit at home those couple of weeks?

well i dont know why you disagree, i also am self employed make a hundred an hour, with no college degree, and have seen how society is staked up against small business. But I would gladly trade my current employee for someone who gave a shit about their job.

There are actually a lot of programs out there offering help. But, in typical US fashion, the 'Vet Centers' (federal funded war vet counseling systems and a subsection of the VA), computers do NOT talk to the Veterans Affairs computers. So... a vet goes for counseling, say once a week, for a year, and when He/She sees the psychiatrist, that person has NO IDEA what the hell is going on. Nor does the arm of the VA that awards compensation/disability/etc. And the VA psychologists have no idea what has transpired at the vet centers. And the Vet Centers have no idea what the vet is dealing with at the regular VA.

I served in Iraq, but I was a communications guy (not exactly GI Joe kicking down doors in Falluja, more like sitting in a communications shelter in southern Iraq and Kuwait, or pulling guard duty, but I never killed anyone, or for that matter even came close, my biggest dilemma was finding a quite place to jerk off once in a while). So I wouldn't say guys like me require mandatory counseling upon return from theater (although free Jack Daniels for a year would be nice), but maybe the guys who were pulling triggers.

I mean, it depends (there's no guarantee he won't ever see fighting, especially as an MP). I can say, the Army has responded to this issue, all soldiers have to do annual anti-suicide training, and training on how to identify the warning signs of depression in others (and they have invested considerably in mental health), but the real answer is to stop fighting unnecessary wars (because war is always horrific, and psychology can only do so much). Nevertheless, mental health is a serious issue, not only for our armed forces, but for our population in general (and unfortunately it has a bad stigma associated with it, which we need to change).

Well to be perfectly honest I'm one of those people that does not see why someone can't just not be depressed(I know that's confusing). I've never been depressed and when I have problems I deal with them. It's not that I'm intentionally hard hearted but I just don't see how someone can want to commit suicide because it is a long term solution to a short term problem

Courts do allow perjury, evasion of lawfulness by government, forgery, fraud, even participating in it, and violate due process because such effective treatment also allows an understanding of the ultimate forms of secrecy. Local, state and federal government are very much involved with defending the interests of church and labeling the unconscious mind "taboo", forbidden, not to be acknowledged.

Soldiers suffer, we all suffer, the environment suffers, life suffers in ignorant repetition of destructive behaviors conducted and anabled in secrecy.

I do realize that the judges conducting such activities are carefully selected and those doing the selecting are the ones basically responsible. Infiltration of high govrnmental position.

Media participates secretly to keep the secret of secrets. Reporters gagged to prevent information to the public.

Is it true that thousands of soldiers are thinking of just leaving the Army on Independence Day? A few of my pals finished a tour recently and were saying that there are rumors going round the troops that thousands of soldiers were considering leaving the Army on Mass on Independence Day. Is this true? Are our Soldiers being suppressed that much that they would do this. My friends say it's not that bad but I do wonder? I only hope some of those soldiers that are considering suicide do this instead. Rather have them home and safe.

You're right about the stigma. I agree about the counseling requirement it can only help and might keep their problems from culminating in suicide. I have a good friend who did a year tour and he can no longer watch fireworks on the 4th or New Years because of it.My next door neighbor deployed for 4 months and it took him a month to wind down. As he put it,"Over there everyone carried a gun openly and you never knew who was going to shoot at you". When he got back he had a hard time with crowds and people being behind him.

One of the problems is our military spending is spread out so evenly throughout the country, bases, arms manufacurers, and all those that benefit from it in one way or another. I believe it was deliberately set up like this. Anyway it makes it difficult for our elected officials to vote down military spending knowing that his/her constituents will suffer. Then of course you have the corrupt money coming in from arms manufacurers which makes it almost impossible for them to vote down more defense spending.

PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) and availability of treatment for Vets anywhere beyond a short drive of 20 to 30 minutes needs to be addressed along with several other issues concerning medical care for Vets. My husband is a Vietnam Vet who definitely suffers the effects of the war-horrible things that are like a permanent stain on his psyche. For example encountering a sampan (Vietnamese boat) laden with goods, warning them off using a card in several languages with the phrase translated asking for ID and pausing just a bit too long hoping to give them a chance only to have a senior officer threaten to take the responsibility away and do the job as required- the intensity of pressure to perform from the commanding officer pushed his performance in firing on the potential attackers only yards away. The description of seeing the people and saddest of all, the child be destroyed(waving hand and bodies literally shredded and sliced) is a moment seared on his memory that dogs him with guilt. We watched a Pearl Harbor War documentary yesterday where one soldier's writings to family at the end of WWII included this statement:"I'm not a killer at heart I was just doing my job." I told my husband that to let go of the guilt that he needs to release it by finding a way to forgive himself because based on his account he was more than generous in reading off the translations repeatedly, pausing and then doing the horrific thing he did. Of course there's more, things like the man who was taken prisoner who was not an enemy Vietnamese that the helicopter crash landed on the deck which a visiting general, clearly after any blood ordered dumped overboard (the young man, only about 16) was hand cuffed and strapped into the back of the helicopter. The general threatened to blow husbands brains out if he or anyone present refused to push the helicopter in. Husband humanely as he could gave a small Bible to the prisoner who prayed before dying. The general was later reported and demoted, sent back to the states to do a 'desk job' and husband says somebody should have shot him but of course nobody would dare. Plenty of other horrible things too, the enemy sending children pretending to be Christian and then on successive visits would or could arrive with grenades or bombs attached, the insanity of the heat of armed battle compelling shooting of villagers out of fear because it is indeterminable whether or not they are enemies. Other friends who are Vets carry guilt of mutiny and conspired agreement to kill a Commanding Officer who consistently endangered troops by irrational/unreasonable demands. How to get the stain on the psyche out or get it to fade so life is more 'normal?' These are things that my husband and I agree can be helped by both friends with similar experiences, acknowledging that Vets who suffer PTSD are really showing that they are normal by being able to feel this way(because war is insane to engage in) plus professional help are so important when the PTSD disables a normal life.

In closing, for all Vets who found themselves doing things per order or out of anger, fright, sadness in the heat of any war the WWII guy is right, at heart you are not killers but were just doing your job (amidst the insanity that is war.)

well they shouldnt have joined the prison outfit called the military that was their first mistake. I wouldnt go overseas and fight an illegal war, id choose 3 hots and a cot vacation village instead (A.W.O.L.) but then again, im not brainwashed, like most people are.

hey i served my 10 year prison sentence in the military, ive earned the right to speak of things as they really are. I spoke against the way things were heading 20 years ago before the shit hit the fan.

My father served for a couple years as well, and he hated authority, but that is how the system is set up. If you weren't drafted then you don't have much to complain about do you? What shit are you referring to exactly?

the same stuff that ows movement and many others from the middle class on down to the bottom are suffering. Nothing new just listen to the 99% and I shouldnt have to explain "exactly". I personally have suffered much.

IF ONLY I WAS THE FIRST MAN to live on the earth, so and lived to be 10,000 years old, then under our current lack of entitlement program, the entire planet would be paying me rent! Yup that sounds reasonable to me, NOT. We operate under the same principle, early settlers, escaped to america, because they wanted to escape overtaxation, and just wanted to own land, now its the same shit again!

It's unacceptable, is it? As sad as this may be, the figures are nothing to be worried about. Why? Not because I am not a patriot, but because statistically the suicide rate is no different from that of the rest of the country, may be a little less.

Now, the 19 per 100,000 persons stats for the country includes people of the age group 1-15 as well as 64+; in these age groups the rate of suicide is very very low. So if you removed this age, the figure would be much higher than 19 per 100,000

So in a way, the suicide rate is very likely less in the armed forces than the general population.

So what's the lesson from this? Learn to use your brains and look deeper into what news you come across. Most news is sensationalized. For example, I could present this same data in a more sensational manner with a headline "Everyday 1 soldier commits suicide".

Most of you get way too emotionally charged without thinking rationally about the data, without trying to dig deeper.

Of course, this does not mean we should not care about our soldiers, we absolutely should. They fight wars which they did not start, risking their lives daily for us. My deepest sympathies for those families who lost someone in the wars.

percentage rates give a generic oversight, but the fact that people dont know that when our spirits separate from our bodies, it is looked upon as being in prison, cause we no longer have the physical body to amply feelings like appetite, rest, pleasure, joy, etc... this is what bothers me the most. Without our bodies, we can feel nothing, this isn't better. People should be taught this, but instead they are taught that Israel is God's chosen people and ignore the fact that God blessed America above every other people. People live in darkness and know it not.

As sad as this may be, the figures are nothing to be worried about. Why? Not because I am not a patriot, but because statistically the suicide rate is no different from that of the rest of the country, may be a little less.
The strength of our armed forces are thus (approximate figures): Army: 1,000,000 Navy: 500,000 Air Force: 400,000 Marines: 200,000
total: 2,100,000 http://www.ehow.com/about_4595933_what-size-us-military.html
Assuming 400 suicides a year, that's approximately 19 suicides per 100,000 persons.
Incidentally, the rate of suicides among males in America is also 19 per 100,000 persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
Now, the 19 per 100,000 persons stats for the country includes people of the age group 1-15 as well as 64+; in these age groups the rate of suicide is very very low. So if you removed this age, the figure would be much higher than 19 per 100,000
So in a way, the suicide rate is very likely less in the armed forces than the general population.
So what's the lesson from this? Learn to use your brains and look deeper into what news you come across. Most news is sensationalized. For example, I could present this same data in a more sensational manner with a headline "Everyday 1 soldier commits suicide".
Most of you get way too emotionally charged without thinking rationally about the data, without trying to dig deeper.
Of course, this does not mean we should not care about our soldiers, we absolutely should. They fight wars which they did not start, risking their lives daily for us. My deepest sympathies for those families who lost someone in the wars.

And you Sir do not understand simple mathematics. I gave you a very easy to comprehend analysis of the suicide rates. I am not saying we should let our soldiers commit suicide. All I am saying is the suicide rate is not more than that of the regular population.

Seriously man, is it that hard to follow such basic deduction? I thought this was elementary. Actually you know, I give up. I can far easily teach the nuances of options and derivatives to a reasonably smart bunch of 5th graders than drive some sense in occutards. You are right. it's my analysis and data that all, as you so gently put it, crap. In fact I apologize for my utter audacity to bring some data, figures and analysis into the discussion. Who needs that? Duh...

Ohk, so apparently your data interpretations skills are bad too. You should have paid a little more attention during math class. And you guys actually think you have a clue about the economy. I wonder why no one wants to give you a job.

Again, my analysis compared suicide rates in active duty personnel only (approx 400). If you include veterans the figure will be different. lets see what that figure would be. We have 22 million veterans (http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/cb11-ff23.html) and there are 18 veteran suicides a day (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/02/suicide_n_1070491.html). So approximately 30 out of 100,000 veterans commit suicide a year. Now this number is of course far higher than 19. So yes, we should be focusing on our veterans rather than active duty personnel. But my comparison of suicide rate among active duty personnel and general population is still correct. If you want to feel outrage, then direct it towards veteran suicides and not suicides among active duty troops. Again, think with data. real hard cold data.

Is it really a question of who I have sympathies for? I have deep respect for the armed forces and I don't have to prove my patriotism to anyone. The only reason I brought this stats out was to provide a proper perspective and cut down the sensationalism that media articles do. People everywhere are getting way to swayed by emotions rather than facts and logic. And when you get swayed by emotions you give in to unnecessary wars like the one in Iraq or draconian legislation like the Patriot Act.