If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in.

In the same way, the followers of all these other religions have chosen to reject God. You think their gods are imaginary, and they think your God is imaginary.

In other words, each religious person on earth today arbitrarily rejects thousands of gods as imaginary, many of which he/she has never even heard of, and arbitrarily chooses to "believe" in one of them.

The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

A rational person rejects all human gods equally, because all of them are equally imaginary.

How do we know that they are imaginary? Simply imagine that one of them is real.

If one of these thousands of gods were actually real, then his followers would be experiencing real, undeniable benefits. These benefits would be obvious to everyone. The followers of a true god would pray, and their prayers would be answered. The followers of a true god would therefore live longer, have fewer diseases, have lots more money, etc.

There would be thousands of statistical markers surrounding the followers of a true god.

Everyone would notice all of these benefits, and they would gravitate toward this true god. And thus, over the course of several centuries, everyone would be aligned on the one true god. All the other false gods would have fallen by the wayside long ago, and there would be only one religion under the one true god.

When we look at our world today, we see nothing like that. There are two billion Christians AND there are more than one billion Muslims, and their religions are mutually exclusive. There are thousands of other religions. When you analyze any of them, they all show a remarkable similarity -- there is zero evidence that any of these gods exist.

Mr. Flopnuts

11-24-2012, 04:51 AM

Would you like to be a moderator on Chiefsplanet? You'll fit in just fine. #I'msuperbutthurt

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 04:58 AM

yup.

jspchief

11-24-2012, 05:59 AM

Unless you believe that they are all just different interpretations of the same god.

okoye35chiefs

11-24-2012, 06:04 AM

Unless you believe that they are all just different interpretations of the same god.

yes! I like that!

or does the GOD that you believe in tell you to kill off everyone who does not believe in "your" god?

it all comes down to extremists no matter what you follow...

AussieChiefsFan

11-24-2012, 06:05 AM

yes! I like that!

or does the GOD that you believe in tell you to kill off everyone who does not believe in "your" god?

it all comes down to extremists no matter what you follow...sad truth

blaise

11-24-2012, 09:06 AM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 09:07 AM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

LMAO bullshit~

blaise

11-24-2012, 09:09 AM

LMAO bullshit~

No, it's not bullshit.

BucEyedPea

11-24-2012, 09:11 AM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

Spot-on observation. Atheist evangelists.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 09:11 AM

Yes, really.

First off I don't identify myself as an atheist. However the believers spent just as much time arguing as the nonbelievers do~

BucEyedPea

11-24-2012, 09:13 AM

Proof #28 - Notice how many gods you reject
Buddhism: 376 million

Buddhism doesn't believe in a god or deity.

Don't know about some of those other eastern/new age ones do though?

La literatura

11-24-2012, 09:19 AM

I have a very good reason for rejecting Vishnu. I once prayed to him the night before I had to give a speech in high school. I ended up dry-heaving during the speech and developing a skin rash shortly afterward.

blaise

11-24-2012, 09:20 AM

First off I don't identify myself as an atheist. However the believers spent just as much time arguing as the nonbelievers do~

I seldom see pro-religion threads, or pro-Christianity threads started here. I see anti-religion and anti-Christian threads started fairly often. I would say at the least the atheist crowd is doing more to start the debates.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 09:26 AM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

I seldom see pro-religion threads, or pro-Christianity threads started here. I see anti-religion and anti-Christian threads started fairly often. I would say at the least the atheist crowd is doing more to start the debates.

So why have I received no such visits at my house from Atheists but continue to get weekly visits from Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses?

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 09:31 AM

I seldom see pro-religion threads, or pro-Christianity threads started here. I see anti-religion and anti-Christian threads started fairly often. I would say at the least the atheist crowd is doing more to start the debates.

That could be true. Atheists and agnostics are growing in numbers and becoming more vocal~

blaise

11-24-2012, 09:32 AM

So why have I received no such visits at my house from Atheists but continue to get weekly visits from Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses?

Maybe you don't actually live on the message board.

BucEyedPea

11-24-2012, 09:56 AM

I seldom see pro-religion threads, or pro-Christianity threads started here. I see anti-religion and anti-Christian threads started fairly often. I would say at the least the atheist crowd is doing more to start the debates.

If there were, can you imagine the rabid attacks calling those who start the nuts with the subsequent piling on? Oh my! Such tolerance we would see respecting people of faith.

BigCatDaddy

11-24-2012, 09:59 AM

Maybe you don't actually live on the message board.

LMAO That was quite the jump he made there.

Dave Lane

11-24-2012, 10:01 AM

The God project currently estimates there are 100,000 different gods that have been worshipped at one point or another on earth. You just worship 1 while reject 99,999. Why is yours right?

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 11:14 AM

True. I'm damned near an atheist except for worshiping that one true God that I do.

Hell, I was totally on the atheism wagon until he revealed himself to me and invited me to follow. Now I'm not going to pretend to know why he did that when he did that, but once he called my name I'd have been a fool not to come.

Pitt Gorilla

11-24-2012, 11:17 AM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.I'd love to see your corpus of data for quantification.

patteeu

11-24-2012, 11:18 AM

I believe in all of them except Juche and Obama.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 11:21 AM

True. I'm damned near an atheist except for worshiping that one true God that I do.

Hell, I was totally on the atheism wagon until he revealed himself to me and invited me to follow. Now I'm not going to pretend to know why he did that when he did that, but once he called my name I'd have been a fool not to come.

Tell him to give me a call sometime, I would like to ask him some questions~

patteeu

11-24-2012, 11:22 AM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

Way more time based on my observation.

Chiefspants

11-24-2012, 11:22 AM

Maybe you don't actually live on the message board.

I think believers begin to tune out the efforts of fellow believers as they grow around such an environment, the reason atheists may seem more boisterous is because the few who do speak up attract a lot of attention.

Chiefspants

11-24-2012, 11:22 AM

Way more time based on my observation.

False.

patteeu

11-24-2012, 11:23 AM

So why have I received no such visits at my house from Atheists but continue to get weekly visits from Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses?

Sure you do. Do you spend a lot of time in soup lines?

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 11:24 AM

Tell him to give me a call sometime, I would like to ask him some questions~

No fair. I was in line first and I have a really long list.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 11:27 AM

True. I'm damned near an atheist except for worshiping that one true God that I do.

Hell, I was totally on the atheism wagon until he revealed himself to me and invited me to follow. Now I'm not going to pretend to know why he did that when he did that, but once he called my name I'd have been a fool not to come.

There's no accounting for being batshit insane.

patteeu

11-24-2012, 11:28 AM

False.

Can you link me to the last thread started by a believer who was trying to convince non-believers that they were wrong?

lewdog

11-24-2012, 11:33 AM

I just ignored a ringing doorbell pushed by two guys in white shirts and ties who were probably here to tell me why their God is superior and why I should follow all the rules. I sure hope I didn't miss my first visit from an Atheist!

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 11:35 AM

There's no accounting for being batshit insane.

I know, right?

stevieray

11-24-2012, 11:35 AM

Can you link me to the last thread started by a believer who was trying to convince non-believers that they were wrong?

this should be good.....

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 11:37 AM

I know, right?

People believe in aliens because of hallucinations too, you know.

Ever heard of sleep paralysis?

lewdog

11-24-2012, 11:40 AM

Can you link me to the last thread started by a believer who was trying to convince non-believers that they were wrong?

No. Is that the same level of discernment you use to spot these armies of evangelizing missionaries who you think are assaulting your front door in waves? Maybe it's just the FedEx guy or the Terminix man.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 11:43 AM

No fair. I was in line first and I have a really long list.

LMAO fair enough~

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 11:57 AM

People believe in aliens because of hallucinations too, you know.

Ever heard of sleep paralysis?

That's probably it. Thanks, man.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 11:58 AM

No. Is that the same level of discernment you use to spot these armies of evangelizing missionaries who you think are assaulting your front door in waves? Maybe it's just the FedEx guy or the Terminix man.

I guess some people really don't have a sense of humor. Wow, boring life you must lead.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 11:59 AM

That's probably it. Thanks, man.

That's absolutely it.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 12:00 PM

That's absolutely it.

Next...

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 12:02 PM

No. Is that the same level of discernment you use to spot these armies of evangelizing missionaries who you think are assaulting your front door in waves? Maybe it's just the FedEx guy or the Terminix man.

I have had a half dozen knocks on my door here in NC only to answer it and find an unwanted solicitation from one church or another. I can not count the times I have come home to find a leaflet from some church. I have never heard of atheists or agnostics doing this.

La literatura

11-24-2012, 12:10 PM

So why have I received no such visits at my house from Atheists but continue to get weekly visits from Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses?

This doesn't happen.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 12:10 PM

I have had a half dozen knocks on my door here in NC only to answer it and find an unwanted solicitation from one church or another. I can not count the times I have come home to find a leaflet from some church. I have never heard of atheists or agnostics doing this.

And it is still baffling what these people think they are going to accomplish with such talks? It is right up there with political posts that you think will sway someone's opinion on a political matter.

I don't really give a shit if you want to believe or don't want to. I only ask you to not try to tell me why you believe what you believe...my mind is already made up just like everyone else's.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 12:12 PM

This doesn't happen.

I would actually say it does, albiet not weekly visits, only once. They built a new Catholic Church a few months ago and some of them were coming around the neighborhood with flyers and letting people know it was ready.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 12:16 PM

And it is still baffling what these people think they are going to accomplish with such talks? It is right up there with political posts that you think will sway someone's opinion on a political matter.

I don't really give a shit if you want to believe or don't want to. I only ask you to not try to tell me why you believe what you believe...my mind is already made up just like everyone else's.

Put out a sign that explains your position. I'd think that most but the densest of religious folk would respect your decision. They might even be grateful that you'd be freeing up time that could be spent with people who are more open minded on the matter.

You could be doing God's work by putting up a simple cross with a red line through it and the words, "I don't want to hear it. Move along."

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 12:16 PM

This doesn't happen.

Several third world countries disagree~

patteeu

11-24-2012, 12:16 PM

This doesn't happen.

That was my main problem with his post. It's hard to believe he has weekly visits from Mormons and JWs, but at least it's something they do. Sticking Catholics in the list calls the whole claim into doubt though.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 12:17 PM

Put out a sign that explains your position. I'd think that most but the densest of religious folk would respect your decision. They might even be grateful that you'd be freeing up time that could be spent with people who are more open minded on the matter.

You could be doing God's work by putting up a simple cross with a red line through it and the words, "I don't want to hear it. Move along."

I should not need to~

La literatura

11-24-2012, 12:17 PM

I would actually say it does, albiet not weekly visits, only once. They built a new Catholic Church a few months ago and some of them were coming around the neighborhood with flyers and letting people know it was ready.

I hope you called the cops on those creeps.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 12:19 PM

I should not need to~

I'm not trying to identify what's right and wrong here. I'm simply offering a solution to an annoyance.

La literatura

11-24-2012, 12:22 PM

Several third world countries disagree~

The key to evangelism in the third world is not knocking on doors. It's Hershey chocolate bars.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 12:22 PM

Put out a sign that explains your position. I'd think that most but the densest of religious folk would respect your decision. They might even be grateful that you'd be freeing up time that could be spent with people who are more open minded on the matter.

You could be doing God's work by putting up a simple cross with a red line through it and the words, "I don't want to hear it. Move along."

Haha I guess. I use to talk to most of them but I have since stopped at they come at least once a weekend and I never have much to say. I suppose I could argue with them about shit but I don't feel the need, as I try not to put my opinion on them. I have no bad feelings for people who worship whatever God they want to. Would be nice if they respected me the same as I do them.

Again, I have no idea what they want to accomplish. If it is solely to talk about God, that is what church is for. If it is to persuade someone to join their religion, that is just plain stupid for thinking that will work. I think it might just be that it helps them sleep at night to know they spread God's word.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 12:25 PM

I hope you called the cops on those creeps.

I think you are missing the point, which is probably too long to explain to you.

But yes, next time I will try the cops. Thanks.

Dave Lane

11-24-2012, 12:31 PM

Ummmm...

Heres a recent one. There's lots more too.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=262893

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 12:31 PM

The key to evangelism in the third world is not knocking on doors. It's Hershey chocolate bars.

LMAO

La literatura

11-24-2012, 12:32 PM

I think you are missing the point, which is probably too long to explain to you.

But yes, next time I will try the cops. Thanks.

Atta boy!

Dave Lane

11-24-2012, 12:32 PM

Can you link me to the last thread started by a believer who was trying to convince non-believers that they were wrong?

Heres the last one. There's lots more too.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=262893

lewdog

11-24-2012, 12:36 PM

Ummmm...

Heres a recent one. There's lots more too.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=262893

Heres the last one. There's lots more too.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=262893

Don't know how you found those through all the Atheists threads cluttering this board!?

La literatura

11-24-2012, 12:39 PM

That's the same thread in each post.

La literatura

11-24-2012, 12:45 PM

It's not a sure-fire way, but you can click on the Religion icon (and then adjust the timeframe) to view many threads that have focused on religion. Compare the titles. In my brief review, there are a few hostile to religious beliefs, most about current events dealing with religion in the news, and some genuine religious questions. There are very few that could be described as religious evangelization.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 12:47 PM

:shake:

Not worth the argument!! One here on earth can not argue with a true atheist, only one true man has ever argued and won, he ascended to heaven.

cosmo20002

11-24-2012, 12:51 PM

:shake:

Not worth the argument!! One here on earth can not argue with a true atheist, only one true man has ever argued and won, he ascended to heaven.

Nope. I'm undefeated and I'm still here.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 12:54 PM

Nope. I'm undefeated and I'm still here.

Thanks for showing up, Mr. Cassel. The bench is over there.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 12:54 PM

Nope. I'm undefeated and I'm still here.

You are one of a kind.LMAO

mnchiefsguy

11-24-2012, 12:55 PM

Nope. I'm winless and I'm still here.

FYP.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 12:58 PM

http://www.leaderu.com/wri-table2/God.html

go bowe

11-24-2012, 01:04 PM

Nope. I'm undefeated and I'm still here.

the election is over and richie rich lost...

it's time for a new sig for you... :spank:

whoman69

11-24-2012, 01:06 PM

Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same God. That makes up about half the people on the planet.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 01:09 PM

Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same God. That makes up about half the people on the planet.

There is a lot of people who feel this way, they just have a different interpretation it.

ISLAM
God
Allah means "the God"-- indicating the radical monotheism of Islam. "We shall not serve anyone but God, and we shall associate none with Him" (Koran 3.64). Any division of God is rejected, including the Christian doctrines of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.

The majesty and might of Allah is often portrayed in the Koran, and it is emphasized that his purposes are always serious. Justice is Allah's most important feature for Muslims.

Allah is also merciful and compassionate, but that mercy is shown mainly in his sending messengers who proclaim the truth of man's responsibility to live according to Allah's dictates.

JUDAISM
God
The complete unity of God--both as a powerful, just ruler and as a merciful, loving deliverer--is central to Judaism. That means that Jews do not flinch from confronting the problem of the existence of pain and suffering, although they freely admit that it is a mystery. Somehow God is Lord even in the midst of a painful and evil world.

God is not merely some supreme force but is a person, one with emotions of anger, sadness, and joy. He is above all a person with whom one can have a relationship; He desires to share the full gamut of emotions with men.

At the same time God has a certain remoteness. He is above the world, and His ways are often inscrutable to man. The tension between God's nearness and farness is a recurring theme of Judaism, leading to passionate appeals by Jews for communication with Him.

God is seen as continually active in a creative way, constantly working in the world to offer men the opportunity to fulfill their obligations toward Him and toward fellow men.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 01:09 PM

Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same God. That makes up about half the people on the planet.

Jesus Christ is one person of my God. I think that I and more than a billion Muslims and Jews disagree with you.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 01:13 PM

Jesus Christ is one person of my God. I think that I and more than a billion Muslims and Jews disagree with you.

This I agree with and will live by.

To each their own.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 01:15 PM

Islam does not speak as Jesus as God's son.....

patteeu

11-24-2012, 01:16 PM

Heres the last one. There's lots more too.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=262893

That thread doesn't seemed to be about convincing atheists that God exists. I read through the first several posts and I couldn't identify any call-outs or challenges coming from the believer side.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 01:21 PM

That thread doesn't seemed to be about convincing atheists that God exists. I read through the first several posts and I couldn't identify any call-outs or challenges coming from the believer side.

Geology, theology. I think the rhyming tripped Dave Lane up.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 01:33 PM

Haha I guess. I use to talk to most of them but I have since stopped at they come at least once a weekend and I never have much to say. I suppose I could argue with them about shit but I don't feel the need, as I try not to put my opinion on them. I have no bad feelings for people who worship whatever God they want to. Would be nice if they respected me the same as I do them.

Again, I have no idea what they want to accomplish. If it is solely to talk about God, that is what church is for. If it is to persuade someone to join their religion, that is just plain stupid for thinking that will work. I think it might just be that it helps them sleep at night to know they spread God's word.

I have always responded the same here in North Carolina as I did in Kansas. I am friendly and cut the conversation very short by saying I am not interested, have a nice day goodbye. The only church I have been rude to was Jehovah Witnesses. That is because I told them I was not interested and the sneaky shitbags came back when I was not home. I guess the truck not parked in the driveway is an easy hint. This happened twice once in Wichita and once in Haysville. In Wichita the I found some of their propaganda on the kitchen table and asked the wife about it. She said they were nice guys and did not want to hurt their feelings. It worked out because a few weeks later I had my truck in the shop and was home when I normally would be at work. I heard a knock at the door and answered standing in front of me was the clowns I had run off, they were very surprised and clearly nervous. I walked out on the porch as they retreated off of it. I told them to get the **** off my property and if they returned they would catch a beating.

The 2nd time was the same deal only that time when I saw the same type propaganda I found out my daughter was their target as the wife and I both worked during the day at that point. She like her mother is too nice to tell them to **** off, although both should have mentioned I would become a problem if they did not go away. In this case I knew where their cult headquarters were located at. I lived on the very west side of Haysville and they have a cult compound just north of 71st and Meridian. I took the paperwork to their building and tried to walk in but the doors were locked, there were a half dozen or more cars in the parking so I knocked on the door several times with no answer. I took the leaflets and wrote them a note saying I lived at xxx Ranger st and if they returned my response would not be friendly so stay the **** away from my house and placed it in their mailbox. Both times after facing the idea of consequences for their stupidity they never returned. At this point It needs to be said that my daughter and her mom both still believe, the daughter was close to my mother and holds the Irish catholic line while her mom chooses the nondenominational path. I have had the same conversation with them I am not interested~

stevieray

11-24-2012, 01:41 PM

Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same God. That makes up about half the people on the planet.

nope, but that agenda will soon be front and center...look for the catholics and muslims to unite under that banner.

La literatura

11-24-2012, 01:43 PM

nope, but that agenda will soon be front and center...look for the catholics and muslims to unite under that banner.

Why do you say that?

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 01:49 PM

nope, but that agenda will soon be front and center...look for the catholics and muslims to unite under that banner.

How much are the tickets for this? Can I attend with a Jewish friend?

Sweet Daddy Hate

11-24-2012, 01:52 PM

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all acknowledge Abraham as the earthly father of thier respective faiths.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 02:27 PM

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all acknowledge Abraham as the earthly father of thier respective faiths.

...and yet, only one recognizes Jesus as the the Son of God.

Sweet Daddy Hate

11-24-2012, 02:30 PM

...and yet, only one recognizes Jesus as the the Son of God.

True.

blaise

11-24-2012, 02:32 PM

I'd love to see your corpus of data for quantification.

Glad to hear it.

Rams Fan

11-24-2012, 02:33 PM

nope, but that agenda will soon be front and center...look for the catholics and muslims to unite under that banner.

Um. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same God.

Sweet Daddy Hate

11-24-2012, 02:34 PM

Scientology: 500 thousand

LMAO

Sweet Daddy Hate

11-24-2012, 02:35 PM

Actually, Islam has been projected to outgrow Christianity within 20 years.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 02:35 PM

Um. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same God.

you always late to the party?

Rams Fan

11-24-2012, 02:36 PM

you always late to the party?

Yes.

Too busy reading my Hebrew text. ;)

BucEyedPea

11-24-2012, 02:51 PM

I have had a half dozen knocks on my door here in NC only to answer it and find an unwanted solicitation from one church or another. I can not count the times I have come home to find a leaflet from some church. I have never heard of atheists or agnostics doing this.

It's the area you live in. I rarely get anything.

Rain Man

11-24-2012, 02:53 PM

So why have I received no such visits at my house from Atheists but continue to get weekly visits from Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses?

There's no money in atheism.

I wonder if I could start an atheist church. People show up on Sundays, I pass around the collection plate, and then we all watch football.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 02:59 PM

It's the area you live in. I rarely get anything.

I have had them in Kansas and North Carolina~

Saulbadguy

11-24-2012, 03:01 PM

There's no money in atheism.

/thread

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:04 PM

Next...

It's scientifically proven, you dipshit.

Sleep paralysis is the basis for almost every kind of "creepy night time visitor" in the history of fucking mankind.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:06 PM

Um. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same God.

In theory, not in practice, and certainly not if you were to poll the modern clueless generations of each religion.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 03:10 PM

It's scientifically proven, you dipshit.

Sleep paralysis is the basis for almost every kind of "creepy night time visitor" in the history of ****ing mankind.

Thanks. Please step through the turnstile.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 03:12 PM

Thanks. Please step through the turnstile.

LMAO

Bump

11-24-2012, 03:12 PM

whenever someone says they are religious, I immediately think of them as less intelligent.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 03:14 PM

whenever someone says they are religious, I immediately think of them as less intelligent.

:popcorn:

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 03:17 PM

whenever someone says they are religious, I immediately think of them as less intelligent.

Anytime you and I agree I fear those who disagree with me feel the same~

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:18 PM

What's interesting is I know intelligent people who are also religious.

Including ClevelandBronco.

The need to be religious defies logic in some people. It's an incredible phenomenon.

In the end it's a social crutch for many.

Bump

11-24-2012, 03:20 PM

What's interesting is I know intelligent people who are also religious.

Including ClevelandBronco.

The need to be religious defies logic in some people. It's an incredible phenomenon.

In the end it's a social crutch for many.

as do I, it just tells me that they are susceptible to having their minds controlled easily, which makes them less intelligent than they could be.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 03:20 PM

whenever someone says they are religious, I immediately think of them as less intelligent.

Hit the bong again. Everything will seem to make sense temporarily.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:23 PM

Reason is often overcome by emotion.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 03:23 PM

What's interesting is I know intelligent people who are also religious.

Including ClevelandBronco.

The need to be religious defies logic in some people. It's an incredible phenomenon.

In the end it's a social crutch for many.

It not only defies logic. It supercedes logic. It dwarfs logic. It reveals logic to be an inferior tool that is, unfortunately, widely used for tasks it was not designed to handle.

|Zach|

11-24-2012, 03:25 PM

as do I, it just tells me that they are susceptible to having their minds controlled easily, which makes them less intelligent than they could be.

Are you actually going to leave the country or are you just a big talker?

BigCatDaddy

11-24-2012, 03:25 PM

whenever someone says theory of gravity, I immediately think of them as less intelligent.

FYP

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:26 PM

It not only defies logic. It supercedes logic. It dwarfs logic. It reveals logic to be an inferior tool that is, unfortunately, widely used for tasks it was not designed to handle.

GOD IS LOVE, BROTHER

WORSHIP HIM OR DIE HORRIBLY FOREVER

Bump

11-24-2012, 03:26 PM

Hit the bong again. Everything will seem to make sense temporarily.

in the whole of human history, there has never been a single case when the supernatural explanation turned out to be the right one. Betting on science, when it conflicts with religious belief, is a pretty sure bet.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 03:29 PM

in the whole of human history, there has never been a single case when the supernatural explanation turned out to be the right one. Betting on science, when it conflicts with religious belief, is a pretty sure bet.

I'm not religious, so you'd probably be better off having that conversation with someone who is.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 03:30 PM

GOD IS LOVE, BROTHER

WORSHIP HIM OR DIE HORRIBLY FOREVER

That's a pretty twisted take on it. Not unpopular necessarily, but pretty twisted.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 03:38 PM

That's a pretty twisted take on it. Not unpopular necessarily, but pretty twisted.

Pretty accurate however~

Fish

11-24-2012, 03:39 PM

It not only defies logic. It supercedes logic. It dwarfs logic. It reveals logic to be an inferior tool that is, unfortunately, widely used for tasks it was not designed to handle.

What tasks do you feel logic is not designed to handle?

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:41 PM

What tasks do you feel logic is not designed to handle?

Defense of religious belief, for one.

Religion appeals to different centers of the brain. It satisfies a need in some people, much like lust or hunger. It's almost primal.

Rain Man

11-24-2012, 03:43 PM

I lost religion in 1972. I was nine years old and my parents made me go to church, and I had to ride home on the church bus. I would never get home until the first quarter of the Chiefs game was over, and sometimes even missed an entire half. I decided that I could not worship a god who would let that happen.

These days, I'm starting to rethink it, though.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 03:45 PM

I lost religion in 1972. I was nine years old and my parents made me go to church, and I had to ride home on the church bus. I would never get home until the first quarter of the Chiefs game was over, and sometimes even missed an entire half. I decided that I could not worship a god who would let that happen.

The Chiefs always provided me with a more rewarding emotional outlet than anything else, hence they superseded any religious (and sexual) needs.

Makes a lot of sense looking back.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 03:46 PM

What tasks do you feel logic is not designed to handle?

Most that regard faith, most emotional responses, many aspects of creativity, very often humor, certainly selflessness. Do you have something specific in mind?

Pitt Gorilla

11-24-2012, 04:00 PM

It not only defies logic. It supercedes logic. It dwarfs logic. It reveals logic to be an inferior tool that is, unfortunately, widely used for tasks it was not designed to handle.Logic is an inferior tool? I assume you aren't being serious.

Fish

11-24-2012, 04:00 PM

Most that regard faith, most emotional responses, many aspects of creativity, very often humor, certainly selflessness. Do you have something specific in mind?

No, I was simply curious.

A logical person would probably reply that faith and emotion aren't really necessary, and are usually more trouble than they're worth. I don't really understand how logic would not apply to creativity or selflessness though.

Rain Man

11-24-2012, 04:01 PM

The Chiefs always provided me with a more rewarding emotional outlet than anything else, hence they superseded any religious (and sexual) needs.

Makes a lot of sense looking back.

It's all about what brings us comfort and helps us through life's travails.

In my theofootbology, it's as if God has become Satan.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 04:07 PM

No, I was simply curious.

A logical person would probably reply that faith and emotion aren't really necessary, and are usually more trouble than they're worth. I don't really understand how logic would not apply to creativity or selflessness though.

Logic informs creativity to a great degree. You'll get no argument from me about that. And Ayn Rand would probably agree that acts that appear to be selfless are usually (if not always) not selfless at all, but rather acts of enlightened self interest. Personally, I think she goes too far.

Bump

11-24-2012, 04:07 PM

I lost religion in 1972. I was nine years old and my parents made me go to church, and I had to ride home on the church bus. I would never get home until the first quarter of the Chiefs game was over, and sometimes even missed an entire half. I decided that I could not worship a god who would let that happen.

These days, I'm starting to rethink it, though.

I lost mine when I was 13 years old. I went to a week long church camp that showed me everything I needed to see to get the fuck away from religion. Sleep deprivation was their main mind control tactic and I remember trying to run off and sleep and they caught me and they were like YOU WANT ME TO CALL YOUR PARENTS AND HAVE THEM COME AND GET YOU and I was like HELL YES get me the fuck out of here. Then they wouldn't call my parents once I said that and I had to tough it out.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 04:08 PM

That's a pretty twisted take on it. Not unpopular necessarily, but pretty twisted.

yup, pretty much.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 04:08 PM

Logic is an inferior tool? I assume you aren't being serious.

I am.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 04:09 PM

I rebelled by lying about needing to do homework on Sundays and then watching football.

God never punished me so I assumed he didn't exist.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 04:10 PM

It's all about what brings us comfort and helps us through life's travails.

In my theofootbology, it's as if God has become Satan.

Perhaps there is a God and he's punishing me through the Chiefs.

Sorry everyone.

My heathen nature has doomed us all.

Rain Man

11-24-2012, 04:10 PM

I lost mine when I was 13 years old. I went to a week long church camp that showed me everything I needed to see to get the **** away from religion. Sleep deprivation was their main mind control tactic and I remember trying to run off and sleep and they caught me and they were like YOU WANT ME TO CALL YOUR PARENTS AND HAVE THEM COME AND GET YOU and I was like HELL YES get me the **** out of here. Then they wouldn't call my parents once I said that and I had to tough it out.

Did you also do archery? Sleep deprivation and archery at the same camp is just asking for trouble.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 04:12 PM

I lost religion in 1972. I was nine years old and my parents made me go to church, and I had to ride home on the church bus. I would never get home until the first quarter of the Chiefs game was over, and sometimes even missed an entire half. I decided that I could not worship a god who would let that happen.

These days, I'm starting to rethink it, though.

It might be a simple response to adversity. Sometimes people seek deeper meaning when tragedies such as a death in the family or a natural disaster or a Romeo/Pioli/Cassel event affects them.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 04:20 PM

Most that regard faith, most emotional responses, many aspects of creativity, very often humor, certainly selflessness. Do you have something specific in mind?

You had me at faith...cherish it, enjoy it, just do not be offended when the subject is taken up and faith means nothing in the arena of discussion. I am happy that you found peace of mind just do not offer it up as something to be taken seriously and save the threats of me being tortured for eternity if I do not buy into your superstition~

Bump

11-24-2012, 04:20 PM

Did you also do archery? Sleep deprivation and archery at the same camp is just asking for trouble.

nope, no fun activities like that. They let us swim in a lake though. Church was from 7am - 5pm every single day and they forced us to stay up past 2am. It was definitely a tactic, people's brains are definitely easier to manipulate with no sleep after several days.

Rain Man

11-24-2012, 04:22 PM

nope, no fun activities like that. They let us swim in a lake though. Church was from 7am - 5pm every single day and they forced us to stay up past 2am. It was definitely a tactic, people's brains are definitely easier to manipulate with no sleep after several days.

Dude, that wasn't a swim in the lake. They baptized you.

patteeu

11-24-2012, 04:22 PM

What tasks do you feel logic is not designed to handle?

Dealing with a woman.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 04:24 PM

You had me at faith...cherish it, enjoy it, just do not be offended when the subject is taken up and faith means nothing in the arena of discussion. I am happy that you found peace of mind just do not offer it up as something to be taken seriously and save the threats of me being tortured for eternity if I do not buy into your superstition~

Okay. Thanks, I guess.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 04:28 PM

Dude, that wasn't a swim in the lake. They baptized you.

That is one of the reasons the Catholics claim such large numbers. As an infant they sprinkle water on your head and claim you as a catholic. I like millions of others have never endorsed or agreed to this contract but the catholic church still claims us as members~

stevieray

11-24-2012, 04:30 PM

You had me at faith...cherish it, enjoy it, just do not be offended when the subject is taken up and faith means nothing in the arena of discussion. I am happy that you found peace of mind just do not offer it up as something to be taken seriously and save the threats of me being tortured for eternity if I do not buy into your superstition~

wow, quite the conundrum...don't be offended when it's not taken seriously vs. don't offer it up as something to be taken seriously.

it really is amazing how much some people can't get past it.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 04:31 PM

Okay. Thanks, I guess.

I like you and I am serious that I am glad you found comfort in your beliefs. I am just as serious about the rest of that post, but that does not change the first part of my post~

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 04:34 PM

wow, quite the conundrum...don't be offended when it's not taken seriously vs. don't offer it up as something to be taken seriously.

it really is amazing how much some people can't get past it.

Steve you are my friend and I would rather not go to battle with you on this. I will but not by choice~

HonestChieffan

11-24-2012, 04:38 PM

What tasks do you feel logic is not designed to handle?

Negotiations with a wife comes immidiately to mind. Also using logic with a person who is emotional or mad as hell will not go well for you

stevieray

11-24-2012, 04:39 PM

Steve you are my friend and I would rather not go to battle with you on this. I will but not by choice~
and you are my friend....:thumb:

just so you know, you don't find peace and comfort, peace and comfort finds you.

I think this is why it's so hard for some to grasp....it isn't about us....it's about Him.

whoman69

11-24-2012, 04:42 PM

Jesus Christ is one person of my God. I think that I and more than a billion Muslims and Jews disagree with you.

nope, but that agenda will soon be front and center...look for the catholics and muslims to unite under that banner.

They can disagree all they like. Islam and Christianity are all off shoots of Judaism. Just because they don't agree doesn't change facts.

Saulbadguy

11-24-2012, 04:46 PM

They can disagree all they like. Islam and Christianity are all off shoots of Judaism. Just because they don't agree doesn't change facts.

It's all the same shit.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 04:50 PM

They can disagree all they like. Islam and Christianity are all off shoots of Judaism. Just because they don't agree doesn't change facts.
that's not what you said...you said they ALL believe in the same God.

....and they don't. The Jews ignored the prophets and the prophecy of the OT being fulfilled through Christ....hence their temple being destroyed in 70 AD..... the Muslims, like the Jews, don't believe Christ is the Son of God.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 04:57 PM

and you are my friend....:thumb:

just so you know, you don't find peace and comfort, peace and comfort finds you.

I think this is why it's so hard for some to grasp....it isn't about us....it's about Him.

Live well my friend~

stevieray

11-24-2012, 04:58 PM

Live well my friend~

you too my brother..tell your son I said hey!

LiveSteam

11-24-2012, 04:59 PM

Was Mary Magdalene a whore or the wife of Christ?
Maybe Jesus liked dirty girls to ?

Brock

11-24-2012, 05:01 PM

that's not what you said...you said they ALL believe in the same God.

....and they don't. The Jews ignored the prophets and the prophecy of the OT being fulfilled through Christ....hence their temple being destroyed in 70 AD..... the Muslims, like the Jews, don't believe Christ is the Son of God.

Nah, it's the same god. The jews didn't ignore the prophets, they were the prophets. They just don't think Jesus was the messiah. Their temple being destroyed in 70 had nothing to do with anything. Whether the Muslims believe in Jesus or not, they're all worshipping the same god.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 05:03 PM

Nah, it's the same god. The jews didn't ignore the prophets, they were the prophets. They just don't think Jesus was the messiah. Their temple being destroyed in 70 had nothing to do with anything. Whether the Muslims believe in Jesus or not, they're all worshipping the same god.

Those Muslim are going to be so pissed when they find out.

Brock

11-24-2012, 05:04 PM

Those Muslim are going to be so pissed when they find out.

They appear to be pissed off either way.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 05:04 PM

ALL WORSHIP SAME GOD

BUT WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER

HOW POSSIBLE?

MAYBE RELIGION WRONG?

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 05:05 PM

ALL WORSHIP SAME GOD

BUT WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER

HOW POSSIBLE?

MAYBE RELIGION WRONG?

Maybe people idiots. Make religions that are certainly wrong.

lewdog

11-24-2012, 05:06 PM

I was raised Catholic from the time of birth until I was 15 when all that Catholic shit about priests molesting boys came out. I would go to church every Sunday and go to Catholic classes every Wednesday. The people at our church, like many in all religions, preach accepting while really throwing those who do not follow under a judgmental microscope. The judgmental natural, strict rule following of rules that really don't make a ton of sense, is what drives me away. As I became more educated, my acceptance of a tolerable religion because even less. Too many religious people use faith to make decisions, instead of going by things science has proven.

I am accepting of those who choose to practice religion if they remain within reason of their expectations of faith, show common sense about these many "rules" and don't preach to me. I have a good friend who prays everyday and has a strong faith in God, but he also lives with his girlfriend (tsk, tsk) and uses birth control. He has used religion to get him though difficult times, is one of the least judgmental people I have ever met but realizes the difference between science and religion. He has not taken the "literal" meaning of the bible and believes in using religion to make him a better person, while not having to follow all these "rules", like (gasp) protected pre-marital sex and building a relationship with a person before legally giving your life them. So while I myself do not have a place for religion in my life, I respect those who incorporate it into their life while not making it their ENTIRE life.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 05:06 PM

you too my brother..tell your son I said hey!

Will do! I will send you my facebook info, I do not get on much but there are some pictures from today~

Brock

11-24-2012, 05:08 PM

ALL WORSHIP SAME GOD

BUT WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER

HOW POSSIBLE?

MAYBE RELIGION WRONG?

Because God is not without a sense of humor.

OH BTW GUYZ - I PUT THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMODITY ON EARTH RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THE CRAZINESS SORRY LOL

blaise

11-24-2012, 05:09 PM

whenever someone says they are religious, I immediately think of them as less intelligent.

Here's the thing - you don't seem intelligent.

RedNeckRaider

11-24-2012, 05:11 PM

you too my brother..tell your son I said hey!

Dude clean out your mail box so I can give you my facebook info~

Saulbadguy

11-24-2012, 05:23 PM

ALL WORSHIP SAME GOD

BUT WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER

HOW POSSIBLE?

MAYBE RELIGION WRONG?

They don't even kill each other over religion anymore. That's just an excuse.

whoman69

11-24-2012, 05:27 PM

that's not what you said...you said they ALL believe in the same God.

....and they don't. The Jews ignored the prophets and the prophecy of the OT being fulfilled through Christ....hence their temple being destroyed in 70 AD..... the Muslims, like the Jews, don't believe Christ is the Son of God.

That doesn't mean that they don't have the same God. They do.

ClevelandBronco

11-24-2012, 05:30 PM

That doesn't mean that they don't have the same God. They do.

You don't really have much to say on this subject, do you?

stevieray

11-24-2012, 05:33 PM

Nah, it's the same god. The jews didn't ignore the prophets, they were the prophets. They just don't think Jesus was the messiah. Their temple being destroyed in 70 had nothing to do with anything. Whether the Muslims believe in Jesus or not, they're all worshipping the same god.

uh, ya they did...Herod, Caaipphus etc were not prophets....and Christ himself foretold that the temple would be torn down.

Not only do Muslims not believe that Christ was the Son of God, they don't believe you can even have a relationship with God.

and this takes me back to my first point to whoman69...that banner is going to be front and center for peace and security.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 05:35 PM

That doesn't mean that they don't have the same God. They do.

No, they don't.

Stop, Chiefs

11-24-2012, 05:36 PM

and this takes me back to my first point to whoman69...that banner is going to be front and center for peace and security.

Which is the cycle of religion existing to control people repeating itself.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 05:37 PM

They don't even kill each other over religion anymore. That's just an excuse.

...you're Jewish, go to SA with a Bible and see how it works out for you.

stevieray

11-24-2012, 05:37 PM

Which is the cycle of religion existing to control people repeating itself.

no, it's coming, but it isn't here yet.

HonestChieffan

11-24-2012, 05:39 PM

Im always interested in these threads. I was raised Episcopalian and changed to Methodist when i got married and have been through a cursillo in the Catholic church in the Peoria illinois area.

It always amazes me how non believers seem so loud in their claims of disbelief and those who do have faith seem so confident in faith that we just listen to them. My faith strenghthened with birth of my son and continues to grow over time

We Methodists in my community have those crazy Catholics next door and on occasion we use each others parking lots. Across the road are Lutherans but they dont use our parking lot. Any thought of a fatwa against either of them is usually wiped out. When we plan a dinner, the mens ham and bean supper or the catholics having a chili supper

Christians of all faiths seem to get along. We even accept jews, Mormans, and baptists (they cook some kick ass stuff). Why do muslims seem more prone to kill their own who are in different tribes?

BigMeatballDave

11-24-2012, 05:55 PM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

LMAO Okay...

Brock

11-24-2012, 06:02 PM

uh, ya they did...Herod, Caaipphus etc were not prophets....and Christ himself foretold that the temple would be torn down.

Not only do Muslims not believe that Christ was the Son of God, they don't believe you can even have a relationship with God.

and this takes me back to my first point to whoman69...that banner is going to be front and center for peace and security.

No, not really. Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah, etc. were all Jews, they aren't ignored they were Jews. Jesus predicting the temple would be torn down wasn't really much of a prediction, given what was going on in Israel at the time. Muslims do not believe that Christ was the son of God, which doesn't mean anything with regard to what I said, but they do believe you can have a relationship with God:

I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

Brock

11-24-2012, 06:03 PM

...you're Jewish, go to SA with a Bible and see how it works out for you.

What is it you imagine would happen?

stevieray

11-24-2012, 06:15 PM

No, not really. Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah, etc. were all Jews, they aren't ignored they were Jews. Jesus predicting the temple would be torn down wasn't really much of a prediction, given what was going on in Israel at the time. Muslims do not believe that Christ was the son of God, which doesn't mean anything with regard to what I said, but they do believe you can have a relationship with God:

the Jews in Jesus' time chose to ignore that prophecy being fulfilled was at hand...they saw him as nothing more than a blasphemer, a false prophet, and someone who was gaing traction among their people., and understandably, felt that upheaval would put them in danger under Roman rule.

He not only foretold of the destruction, he even gave the detail that no stone would be standing...you can marginalize it all you want.

muslims do not believe in a personal relationship with God, to claim so would be as dangerous as what Christ procliamed.

lots of ifs in your quote.

HonestChieffan

11-24-2012, 06:21 PM

Stevie id love your facebook info

Brock

11-24-2012, 06:30 PM

the Jews in Jesus' time chose to ignore that prophecy being fulfilled was at hand...they saw him as nothing more than a blasphemer, a false prophet, and someone who was gaing traction among their people., and understandably, felt that upheaval would put them in danger under Roman rule.

He not only foretold of the destruction, he even gave the detail that no stone would be standing...you can marginalize it all you want.

muslims do not believe in a personal relationship with God, to claim so would be as dangerous as what Christ procliamed.

They didn't ignore the prophecies. They simply didn't, and don't, recognize Jesus as fulfilling them.

Destroyed is destroyed, if you want to seize on "the detail that no stone would be standing", even though a stone was left standing when the Romans destroyed it, be my guest.

Muslims can and do have a personal relationship with god. You're simply wrong about that.

There were no ifs in my quote.

ROYC75

11-24-2012, 06:34 PM

Um. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have the same God.

What about Jesus ?

Ebolapox

11-24-2012, 06:39 PM

What about Jesus ?

he does a great job mowing the lawn, but his work with a weed-eater leaves a bit to be desired... he must be preoccupied by the orange sales by the side of the road that his brother james is working on, or trying to figure out how his wife is going to get picked up from her maid's job.

whoman69

11-24-2012, 06:41 PM

Jesus was Jewish. His followers split off to form their own church. They both believe in Jehovah, the one true God.

Muslims believe that when God asked Abraham to sacrifice one of his sons that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed while the Jews believe it was Isaac. God at the last minute told Abraham to sacrifice a goat instead. The Muslims believe that Abraham then went to Saudi Arabia with Ishmael where they remade the Kabah, the holiest artifact in Islam. Ishmael became first of the Arab race. The Jews believe Abraham went with Isaac to found the nation of Israel. Islam does not mention what happened to Isaac.

Despite the fact that they believe different things, they are all worshiping the same monotheistic God, whether he is called Jehovah, God or Allah.

Brock

11-24-2012, 06:41 PM

What about Jesus ?

The addition of an intercessor between god and man doesn't change the identity of god.

blaise

11-24-2012, 06:56 PM

LMAO Okay...

Glad to see you agree.

Dave Lane

11-24-2012, 07:00 PM

Now I know you are insane.

Im always interested in these threads. I was raised Episcopalian and changed to Methodist when i got married and have been through a cursillo in the Catholic church in the Peoria illinois area.

It always amazes me how non believers seem so loud in their claims of disbelief and those who do have faith seem so confident in faith that we just listen to them. My faith strenghthened with birth of my son and continues to grow over time

We Methodists in my community have those crazy Catholics next door and on occasion we use each others parking lots. Across the road are Lutherans but they dont use our parking lot. Any thought of a fatwa against either of them is usually wiped out. When we plan a dinner, the mens ham and bean supper or the catholics having a chili supper

Christians of all faiths seem to get along. We even accept jews, Mormans, and baptists (they cook some kick ass stuff). Why do muslims seem more prone to kill their own who are in different tribes?

Dave Lane

11-24-2012, 07:05 PM

Jesus predicting the temple would be torn down wasn't really much of a prediction,

Especially since the books were written AFTER the temple had already been torn down. LMAO

The predicting business is much easier after the fact.

As a matter of fact I predict that 2012 will be a disappointing season for the KC Chiefs.

Rain Man

11-24-2012, 07:26 PM

As a matter of fact I predict that 2012 will be a disappointing season for the KC Chiefs.

Oh, ye of little faith.

go bowe

11-24-2012, 07:34 PM

Especially since the books were written AFTER the temple had already been torn down. LMAO

The predicting business is much easier after the fact.

As a matter of fact I predict that 2012 will be a disappointing season for the KC Chiefs.

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

HonestChieffan

11-24-2012, 07:35 PM

Now I know you are insane.

Ok.

listopencil

11-24-2012, 07:41 PM

muslims do not believe in a personal relationship with God

“Truly in the heart there is a void that cannot be removed except with the company of Allah.

And in it there is a sadness that cannot be removed except with the happiness of knowing Allah and being true to Him.

And in it there is an emptiness that can not be filled except with love for Him and by turning to Him and always remembering Him.

And if a person were given all of the world and what is in it, it would not fill this emptiness.”

I once had a committed atheist ask me this question:
“How can a person who is as intelligent as you are believe in God?”

The arrogance implied in that question is typical of the committed atheist. In their eyes, believer = stupid and committed atheist = brilliant.
[I see this around here quite a lot. Even on people who just consider themselves spiritual.]

True. I'm damned near an atheist except for worshiping that one true God that I do.

Hell, I was totally on the atheism wagon until he revealed himself to me and invited me to follow. Now I'm not going to pretend to know why he did that when he did that, but once he called my name I'd have been a fool not to come.

I tr to not jump into religious conversations and to be respectful of people of faith but my mind is to far in the gutter not to laugh at things like this.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 02:33 PM

Atheist Family Loses Lawsuit to Have ‘Under God’ Removed From the Pledge of Allegiance

Under God was added to our pledge of allegiance in 1954, it was added to our currency around the same time, however it made appearances on coins well before that yet still over a hundred years after our birth as a nation. These changes were driven at the same time as the McCarthyism movement. It does not belong there and should be removed. The 10 commandments and other religious language should be removed from all government buildings. You claim to stand for what the founding fathers intended and not understand how this is a complete contradiction to their intentions amazes me. I have several friends and loved ones who believe in one variation of Christianity or another. If their right to hold these beliefs is ever challenged I will stand among them and all others who hold those beliefs to defend that right.

Every year I post a Merry Christmas thread here and will do the same this year and if anyone is offended by it, good fuck them. It pisses me off when people try to pressure non government companies to not recognize this holiday. I could go into how this date is fabricated in Christianity but I digress. I respect the owner of Chic Filet as he makes his views known and sticks by them. Some who disagree with his beliefs tried to punish him with protests. It back fired and he made a mint from those who share his beliefs. I do not but I respect his conviction and courage and good for him. I have no problem doing business with him because I enjoy his food. If he refused service to those who do not share his beliefs I would have a huge problem with him, he does not and good for him. We need to re-establish separation of church and state and it is way overdue~

Saulbadguy

11-25-2012, 02:35 PM

the Jews in Jesus' time chose to ignore that prophecy being fulfilled was at hand...they saw him as nothing more than a blasphemer, a false prophet, and someone who was gaing traction among their people., and understandably, felt that upheaval would put them in danger under Roman rule.

He not only foretold of the destruction, he even gave the detail that no stone would be standing...you can marginalize it all you want.

muslims do not believe in a personal relationship with God, to claim so would be as dangerous as what Christ procliamed.

lots of ifs in your quote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

Saulbadguy

11-25-2012, 02:36 PM

What about Jesus ?

Moses, Muhammad, etc. Just a bunch of sketchy individuals.

BucEyedPea

11-25-2012, 03:22 PM

Under God was added to our pledge of allegiance in 1954, it was added to our currency around the same time, however it made appearances on coins well before that yet still over a hundred years after our birth as a nation. These changes were driven at the same time as the McCarthyism movement. It does not belong there and should be removed. The 10 commandments and other religious language should be removed from all government buildings. You claim to stand for what the founding fathers intended and not understand how this is a complete contradiction to their intentions amazes me. I have several friends and loved ones who believe in one variation of Christianity or another. If their right to hold these beliefs is ever challenged I will stand among them and all others who hold those beliefs to defend that right.

Every year I post a Merry Christmas thread here and will do the same this year and if anyone is offended by it, good **** them. It pisses me off when people try to pressure non government companies to not recognize this holiday. I could go into how this date is fabricated in Christianity but I digress. I respect the owner of Chic Filet as he makes his views known and sticks by them. Some who disagree with his beliefs tried to punish him with protests. It back fired and he made a mint from those who share his beliefs. I do not but I respect his conviction and courage and good for him. I have no problem doing business with him because I enjoy his food. If he refused service to those who do not share his beliefs I would have a huge problem with him, he does not and good for him. We need to re-establish separation of church and state and it is way overdue~
That has nothing to do with establishing a church. George Washingtons Thanksgiving Proclamation contradicts this. But thank you for proving my point.

King_Chief_Fan

11-25-2012, 03:29 PM

Psalm 14:1
Psalm 53:1

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 03:51 PM

That has nothing to do with establishing a church. George Washingtons Thanksgiving Proclamation contradicts this. But thank you for proving my point.

LMAO see Jefferson and Madison and get back with me~

donkhater

11-25-2012, 04:29 PM

If you don't like the constitution, change it.

Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. This is a subtle difference that escapes most atheists. Large intellect, indeed.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 04:32 PM

Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. This is a subtle difference that escapes most atheists. Large intellect, indeed.

LMAO where does separation of church and state fit into your subtle world?

Brock

11-25-2012, 04:41 PM

Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. This is a subtle difference that escapes most atheists. Large intellect, indeed.

wow, you really showed me. I'm not an atheist, I just realize that if you apply the constitution's prohibition of endorsing any religion, then you may have a problem when religious imagery appears on government properties. Of course, dumbbells like yourself spin that into some kind of imaginary war on christians.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 04:43 PM

wow, you really showed me. I'm not an atheist, I just realize that if you apply the constitution's prohibition of endorsing any religion, then you may have a problem when religious imagery appears on government properties. Of course, dumbbells like yourself spin that into some kind of imaginary war on christians.

Nails on~

donkhater

11-25-2012, 04:47 PM

LMAO where does separation of church and state fit into your subtle world?

Not in the Constitution as far as I'm aware.

But...

In a society of laws, there is a basis in morality and justice that has its roots from somewhere. Just where might that be? What gives us the guidance to know that murder, theft, rape, and fraud are wrong and subject to consequences? Shouldn't we all just be beholden by the rule of nature? Are other beasts judged as we are? Why not?

To ignore the uniqueness of human existance is to ignore its creator. For if there is no creator, why all the laws that bind us? By following the letter of the law you are already acknowledging a moral code that did not evolve from the primordial ooze.

donkhater

11-25-2012, 04:49 PM

wow, you really showed me. I'm not an atheist, I just realize that if you apply the constitution's prohibition of endorsing any religion, then you may have a problem when religious imagery appears on government properties. Of course, dumbbells like yourself spin that into some kind of imaginary war on christians.

There is no prohibition in endorsing a religion. Only prohibition in preventing the practice of religion.

Brock

11-25-2012, 04:52 PM

Not in the Constitution as far as I'm aware.

But...

In a society of laws, there is a basis in morality and justice that has its roots from somewhere. Just where might that be? What gives us the guidance to know that murder, theft, rape, and fraud are wrong and subject to consequences? Shouldn't we all just be beholden by the rule of nature? Are other beasts judged as we are? Why not?

To ignore the uniqueness of human existance is to ignore its creator. For if there is no creator, why all the laws that bind us? By following the letter of the law you are already acknowledging a moral code that did not evolve from the primordial ooze.

LMAO Are you seriously going to lay out the case that murder is illegal only because it's prohibited by the bible? Does this mean that atheists cannot recognize that murder is reprehensible and wrong? :facepalm:

Brock

11-25-2012, 04:53 PM

There is no prohibition in endorsing a religion. Only prohibition in preventing the practice of religion.

LMAO

I think you'd better read this again:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

donkhater

11-25-2012, 04:56 PM

LMAO Are you seriously going to lay out the case that murder is illegal only because it's prohibited by the bible? Does this mean that atheists cannot recognize that murder is reprehensible and wrong? :facepalm:

No I'm not. But aren't you the least bit curious where those feelings of right and wrong originate?

Brock

11-25-2012, 04:58 PM

No I'm not. But aren't you the least bit curious where those feelings of right and wrong originate?

Who says they "originate" from anywhere but inside the person who feels them?

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 05:00 PM

No I'm not. But aren't you the least bit curious where those feelings of right and wrong originate?

Seriously hold to your beliefs if they make you happy, however please avoid trying to revise our history to validate those beliefs~

donkhater

11-25-2012, 05:05 PM

LMAO

I think you'd better read this again:

Perhaps you should.

To be clear, I also agree there should be a separation of church and state, mainly because I don't want the state to have anything to do with how I practice my faith, which is the clear intent of the first amendment.

Using the state to dictate how, where and when someone practices their faith is nowhere to be found in that document.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 05:08 PM

Perhaps you should.

To be clear, I also agree there should be a separation of church and state, mainly because I don't want the state to have anything to do with how I practice my faith, which is the clear intent of the first amendment.

Using the state to dictate how, where and when someone practices their faith is nowhere to be found in that document.

You are dick dancing and nothing more. From your post above where have I said anything false?

listopencil

11-25-2012, 05:09 PM

Perhaps you should.

To be clear, I also agree there should be a separation of church and state, mainly because I don't want the state to have anything to do with how I practice my faith, which is the clear intent of the first amendment.

Using the state to dictate how, where and when someone practices their faith is nowhere to be found in that document.

He doesn't need to. He understands the amendment. You were wrong.

donkhater

11-25-2012, 05:10 PM

Who says they "originate" from anywhere but inside the person who feels them?

I refuse to believe you aren't a deeper thinker than that. Where do you think your feelings and sense of right and wrong come from? Randomly organized molecules? Why don't every other animal species on earth have that same feeling? How is THAT encoded in our DNA?

Brock

11-25-2012, 05:11 PM

Perhaps you should.

To be clear, I also agree there should be a separation of church and state, mainly because I don't want the state to have anything to do with how I practice my faith, which is the clear intent of the first amendment.

Using the state to dictate how, where and when someone practices their faith is nowhere to be found in that document.

You're going off the rails here. The state is prohibited from endorsing any religion. That's a statement of fact. All else is irrelevant to what i'm saying.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 05:12 PM

He doesn't need to. He understands the amendment. You were wrong.

Yes he is as are all that take his side are. It is amazing the effort these people will go to trying to avoid accepting the simple truth~

Brock

11-25-2012, 05:14 PM

I refuse to believe you aren't a deeper thinker than that. Where do you think your feelings and sense of right and wrong come from? Randomly organized molecules? Why don't every other animal species on earth have that same feeling? How is THAT encoded in our DNA?

Perhaps it comes from my ability for abstract thought and empathy for other people, which animals do not have because they don't have a brain that operates on that level. I don't need religion to give me that.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 05:14 PM

I refuse to believe you aren't a deeper thinker than that. Where do you think your feelings and sense of right and wrong come from? Randomly organized molecules? Why don't every other animal species on earth have that same feeling? How is THAT encoded in our DNA?

What the fuck does that have to do with the subject? I know what you think you know but it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing~

listopencil

11-25-2012, 05:18 PM

I refuse to believe you aren't a deeper thinker than that. Where do you think your feelings and sense of right and wrong come from? Randomly organized molecules? Why don't every other animal species on earth have that same feeling? How is THAT encoded in our DNA?

No, it's encoded in your RNA. That's still not the point.

donkhater

11-25-2012, 05:28 PM

What the **** does that have to do with the subject? I know what you think you know but it has nothing to do with the subject we are discussing~

As it pertains to a specific religion, then, yes, a separation of church and state is appropriate. I don't believe I've denied that. I'm just merely suggesting that the laws of our society did not just evolve with us. Feelings of empathy and justice are not the result of random chance.

The absolute wall between the state and religion (in general, not a specific religion) is hard to achieve and I dare say impossible.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 05:31 PM

As it pertains to a specific religion, then, yes, a separation of church and state is appropriate. I don't believe I've denied that. I'm just merely suggesting that the laws of our society did not just evolve with us. Feelings of empathy and justice are not the result of random chance.

The absolute wall between the state and religion (in general, not a specific religion) is hard to achieve and I dare say impossible.

It is as long as people chose to ignore it~

listopencil

11-25-2012, 05:35 PM

(1)As it pertains to a specific religion, then, yes, a separation of church and state is appropriate. I don't believe I've denied that.(2) I'm just merely suggesting that the laws of our society did not just evolve with us. (3)Feelings of empathy and justice are not the result of random chance.

(4)The absolute wall between the state and religion (in general, not a specific religion) is hard to achieve and I dare say impossible.

1) No, that's not what the Constitution says.
2) They were derived from many sources, including the (Native American) Iroquois.
3) Morals and ethics are not dependent upon religion.
4) It's far from impossible, and it's necessary to a free society.

something cooler

11-25-2012, 05:39 PM

Atheists here spend more time trying to convince people there is no God than religious people spend trying to convince people there is.

There's nothing wrong with that. Creationism is holding the world back.

donkhater

11-25-2012, 05:49 PM

1) No, that's not what the Constitution says.
2) They were derived from many sources, including the (Native American) Iroquois.
3) Morals and ethics are not dependent upon religion.
4) It's far from impossible, and it's necessary to a free society.

I think there is some confusion here based on my poor choice of words. I've been using religion as a catch all word to mean a belief in a creator, not an institution created by man, which is how i believe you are reading it. So to your points:

1) When I said 'specific' I was referring to an institutional belief system, not a moral code, which has its roots in a creator (I contend).
2)by 'us' I mean us as humans not us as Americans
3)agreed, but they don't just happen
4)for each religion, yes. Our system of laws is not entirely the result of evolution, however.

listopencil

11-25-2012, 05:57 PM

I think there is some confusion here based on my poor choice of words. I've been using religion as a catch all word to mean a belief in a creator, not an institution created by man, which is how i believe you are reading it. So to your points:

1) When I said 'specific' I was referring to an institutional belief system, not a moral code, which has its roots in a creator (I contend).
2)by 'us' I mean us as humans not us as Americans
3)agreed, but they don't just happen
4)for each religion, yes. Our system of laws is not entirely the result of evolution, however.

1) OK, I was just pointing out that the amendment was not intended only to discourage a specific state religion.
2) Our laws did evolve with us humans. We created them. If you choose to believe that divine inspiration moved men to create law then of course you are free to hold that belief.
3) Sure. I was teasing you with my RNA comment.
4) As long as we keep the authority of the Church away from the power of the State we have a chance.

RedNeckRaider

11-25-2012, 06:01 PM

I think there is some confusion here based on my poor choice of words. I've been using religion as a catch all word to mean a belief in a creator, not an institution created by man, which is how i believe you are reading it. So to your points:

1) When I said 'specific' I was referring to an institutional belief system, not a moral code, which has its roots in a creator (I contend).
2)by 'us' I mean us as humans not us as Americans
3)agreed, but they don't just happen
4)for each religion, yes. Our system of laws is not entirely the result of evolution, however.

What is it about separation or church and state that confuses you? Reword your beliefs, explain them all you wish. It does not change the fact this country was founded giving you the right to believe how you wish. However the government was not designed to endorse, condone or reject any belief. As in neutral~

donkhater

11-25-2012, 06:26 PM

2) Our laws did evolve with us humans. We created them. If you choose to believe that divine inspiration moved men to create law then of course you are free to hold that belief.

I'm curious. How did men create law if not by some form of divine inspiration? At what point in our biological evolution did we diverge from all other animals in this regard?

I'm really not asking this to instigate anything, I just wonder what your view on it is.

donkhater

11-25-2012, 06:31 PM

What is it about separation or church and state that confuses you? Reword your beliefs, explain them all you wish. It does not change the fact this country was founded giving you the right to believe how you wish. However the government was not designed to endorse, condone or reject any belief. As in neutral~

I'm not a theocrat. I just recognize the role of divine inspiration ( thank you listopencil) in everything inherently human, including government.

mr. tegu

11-25-2012, 06:38 PM

As a matter of fact I predict that 2012 will be a disappointing season for the KC Chiefs.

And you would be wrong.

Yay for in the 12th year of the second millennia the reign of terror which had cast a shadow over the kingdom of Arrowhead for four years came to an end. The architect of destruction and tyranny became detached from the people and met his demise from his own doings of arrogance and ego. Along with his puppets, they were removed from power because of the bravery and determination which encompassed the uprising and rebellion of the people. Then upon season's end the table will be set and the savior will come forth through the established rituals of selection. He will lead the kingdom out of darkness and into the light and promise of success that comes from his abilities. And it will be good.

King_Chief_Fan

11-25-2012, 07:10 PM

consider this:

http://www.exploringgod.com/questions/is-there-a-god

listopencil

11-25-2012, 11:39 PM

I'm curious. How did men create law if not by some form of divine inspiration? At what point in our biological evolution did we diverge from all other animals in this regard?

I'm really not asking this to instigate anything, I just wonder what your view on it is.

We didn't diverge from all animals in this. Here's and easy example. Your dog knows that it's not supposed to get into the trash can. You come home from work and your dog has knocked it over. Big mess in the kitchen. Look at your dog. Some dogs are stupid and will just look at back at you with a "Derp?" face. Otherwise you will see remorse, guilt and fear. The dog knows it has done something wrong. If you treat it in a certain way you can train it (most dogs) not to knock over the can anymore. In effect you instituted morals in your dog. He knows right from wrong and makes the decision not to "commit evil."

I could give you a lot of examples of moral/ethical behavior in animals but I have to go to bed. Work in the AM. I'll be back tomorrow.

KILLER_CLOWN

11-26-2012, 12:36 AM

We didn't diverge from all animals in this. Here's and easy example. Your dog knows that it's not supposed to get into the trash can. You come home from work and your dog has knocked it over. Big mess in the kitchen. Look at your dog. Some dogs are stupid and will just look at back at you with a "Derp?" face. Otherwise you will see remorse, guilt and fear. The dog knows it has done something wrong. If you treat it in a certain way you can train it (most dogs) not to knock over the can anymore. In effect you instituted morals in your dog. He knows right from wrong and makes the decision not to "commit evil."

I could give you a lot of examples of moral/ethical behavior in animals but I have to go to bed. Work in the AM. I'll be back tomorrow.

Great example for GOD in there, a teaching moment for sure.

La literatura

11-26-2012, 01:21 AM

We didn't diverge from all animals in this. Here's and easy example. Your dog knows that it's not supposed to get into the trash can. You come home from work and your dog has knocked it over. Big mess in the kitchen. Look at your dog. Some dogs are stupid and will just look at back at you with a "Derp?" face. Otherwise you will see remorse, guilt and fear. The dog knows it has done something wrong. If you treat it in a certain way you can train it (most dogs) not to knock over the can anymore. In effect you instituted morals in your dog. He knows right from wrong and makes the decision not to "commit evil."

I could give you a lot of examples of moral/ethical behavior in animals but I have to go to bed. Work in the AM. I'll be back tomorrow.

Two issues come to mind. 1) Supposing the dog knows he does wrong, that feeling is still taught to him by humans. Had it not been for training, that dog would have made a mess in the kitchen and gone about his day no matter how intelligent of a dog he is. 2) The dog knows he did wrong because of the reaction from the human and the poor consequences that follow. Human gets angry; dog gets put in kennel or outside or hit w/ newspaper or whatever standard dog training is; kennel/outside is not comfortable, human angry voice is disturbing, and hit w/ newspaper feels bad.

But a dog cannot tell you why it is bad to make the mess in the kitchen. He has no idea the values that are associated with whatever it is humans think bad, whether it be making a mess in the kitchen or eating the 2 mo old child.

La literatura

11-26-2012, 01:31 AM

Jesus was Jewish. His followers split off to form their own church. They both believe in Jehovah, the one true God.

Muslims believe that when God asked Abraham to sacrifice one of his sons that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed while the Jews believe it was Isaac. God at the last minute told Abraham to sacrifice a goat instead. The Muslims believe that Abraham then went to Saudi Arabia with Ishmael where they remade the Kabah, the holiest artifact in Islam. Ishmael became first of the Arab race. The Jews believe Abraham went with Isaac to found the nation of Israel. Islam does not mention what happened to Isaac.

Despite the fact that they believe different things, they are all worshiping the same monotheistic God, whether he is called Jehovah, God or Allah.

I used to think the same thing. And historically, the sentiment rings true. This is what Peter says in Acts 3, when he references the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And of course, the Christian and New Testament ties to the Hebrew Scriptures are innumerable.

However, theologically, it is not true. There are fundamental differences in the conception of this God that they cannot be the same. Jews, Muslims, and Christians cannot all be correct about the particularly important facets of God. Each religion sees their God through their prism, looking back to the Hebrew Scriptures and seeing their God. But looking forward and presently, they each worship a God that has important differences from the others' formation of God.

La literatura

11-26-2012, 01:52 AM

That is one of the reasons the Catholics claim such large numbers. As an infant they sprinkle water on your head and claim you as a catholic. I like millions of others have never endorsed or agreed to this contract but the catholic church still claims us as members~

There's no contract. There's no official Catholic Member Directory where the Church claims people. The Catholic Church doesn't claim members, and unless you've registered through a parish, you don't officially count for much. It does claim, however, that your baptism was a nice little deal your parents gave you whether you realize it or not.

BigCatDaddy

11-26-2012, 07:16 AM

Defense of religious belief, for one.

Religion appeals to different centers of the brain. It satisfies a need in some people, much like lust or hunger. It's almost primal.

"The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing" - Blaise Pascal

BucEyedPea

11-26-2012, 07:36 AM

What is it about separation or church and state that confuses you?

Where are the words "separation or church and state " in the Constitution anyways? The simple truth is, it's not there.

Reword your beliefs, explain them all you wish. It does not change the fact this country was founded giving you the right to believe how you wish. However the government was not designed to endorse, condone or reject any belief. As in neutral~

The govt is NOT forcing you to believe in God either. The Constitution does NOT guarantee freedom from religion either. It's supposed to restrain the federal govt—not local values. Many state's still had official state churches at the time of ratification and well into the 19th century. Some of those issues got mixed in because of the abuse of the 14th amendment using incorporation.

And the Pledge is a declaration of allegiance to the state. No wonder a socialist wrote the original version. That's their higher authority who grants rights.

BucEyedPea

11-26-2012, 07:40 AM

LMAO see Jefferson and Madison and get back with me~

Already have....you missed a LOT of earlier debates. All I need are the final written words of the document that matters though.

BucEyedPea

11-26-2012, 07:41 AM

Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. This is a subtle difference that escapes most atheists. Large intellect, indeed.

I agree. They want to push it in a closet where it's never heard from. They want to impose their atheism. Like I said their arguments prove my original point. Atheists use the state and it doesn't just end with removing any words referring to a higher power. The curriculums in schools push atheistic humanism on other people's children, replacing it with statism. They're guilty of what they accuse religious folks of doing.

blaise

11-26-2012, 07:48 AM

I agree. They want to push it in a closet where it's never heard from.

Well, I think you have some people who legitimately want a clear separation of church and state and then you have a group of people who are borderline bigoted against Christians and just use any opportunity to try and ridicule, or demean anything about religion or churches. For some people the agenda isn't to protect the constitution, but some personal crusade against religion. I think a lot of that is motivated by simple bigotry.

BucEyedPea

11-26-2012, 07:50 AM

Well, I think you have some people who legitimately want a clear separation of church and state and then you have a group of people who are borderline bigoted against Christians and just use any opportunity to try and ridicule, or demean anything about religion or churches. For some people the agenda isn't to protect the constitution, but some personal crusade against religion. I think a lot of that is motivated by simple bigotry.

I agree there are some people with legitimate concerns about the federal govt establishing a state religion. I also agree with the rest of what you posted.

Fish

11-26-2012, 08:59 AM

As it pertains to a specific religion, then, yes, a separation of church and state is appropriate. I don't believe I've denied that. I'm just merely suggesting that the laws of our society did not just evolve with us. Feelings of empathy and justice are not the result of random chance.

The absolute wall between the state and religion (in general, not a specific religion) is hard to achieve and I dare say impossible.

Of course they have. Barely 200 years ago, I could have owned an African American. Modern Christianity had existed for nearly 2000 years, yet I could legally own another person. If social laws don't evolve, then why am I unable to own another person today? Why have we let women vote? How do you explain changes like that to our laws?

We can point to things in the Bible itself, that were perfectly acceptable in the time it was written, but yet would be condemned and punishable by imprisonment or even death under today's laws. For that to exist, either the omnipotent all knowing God changed his mind, or our laws have changed independently of religion.

Feelings of empathy and justice are absolutely visible in nature. Countless non human species have visible hierarchies of order, and can observably tell "Right from wrong".

Of course they have. Barely 200 years ago, I could have owned an African American. Modern Christianity had existed for nearly 2000 years, yet I could legally own another person. If social laws don't evolve, then why am I unable to own another person today? Why have we let women vote? How do you explain changes like that to our laws?

It's the people's attitude and mentalities that have to change before law changes. Laws that stem from the values of the people are easier to enforce. Slavery was very, very common for thousands of years until questioned during the Enlightenment. It wasn't just Christians...it was just accepted by most. It died out in most places with the stroke of a pen. It would have died out eventually among the southern plantation owners too. That was the direction things were moving in.

Until then, there would have been no possibility of even having the new national govt—a Constitutional republic, because some of the minds at the original convention were not ready to let go of it. There was a compromise to get the new govt. So, this argument is sorta bogus, because essentially it's tantamount to saying we should have remained under the Articles of Confederation. In a way, I do think we would have been better off in the sense we'd be a freer people because the anti-Federalists turned out to be correct. However, the slavery point, is overplayed as a point as it was dying out anyway. Though, today, it's returning by making us all slaves to the state.

La literatura

11-26-2012, 09:23 AM

It's the people's attitude and mentalities that have to change before law changes. Laws that stem from the values of the people are easier to enforce. Slavery was very, very common for thousands of years until questioned during the Enlightenment. It wasn't just Christians...it was just accepted by most. It died out in most places with the stroke of a pen. It would have died out eventually among the southern plantation owners too. That was the direction things were moving in.

Until then, there would have been no possibility of even having the new national govt—a Constitutional republic, because some of the minds at the original convention were not ready to let go of it. There was a compromise to get the new govt. So, this argument is sorta bogus, because essentially it's tantamount to saying we should have remained under the Articles of Confederation. In a way, I do think we would have been better off in the sense we'd be a freer people because the anti-Federalists turned out to be correct. However, the slavery point, is overplayed as a point as it was dying out anyway. Though, today, it's returning by making us all slaves to the state.

How is this relevant to this discussion and KC Fish's underlying point? His argument is not "sorta bogus." It's a good point.

Fish

11-26-2012, 09:28 AM

It's the people's attitude and mentalities that have to change before law changes. Laws that stem from the values of the people are easier to enforce. Slavery was very, very common for thousands of years until questioned during the Enlightenment. It wasn't just Christians...it was just accepted by most. It died out in most places with the stroke of a pen. It would have died out eventually among the southern plantation owners too. That was the direction things were moving in.

Until then, there would have been no possibility of even having the new national govt—a Constitutional republic, because some of the minds at the original convention were not ready to let go of it. There was a compromise to get the new govt. So, this argument is sorta bogus, because essentially it's tantamount to saying we should have remained under the Articles of Confederation. In a way, I do think we would have been better off in the sense we'd be a freer people because the anti-Federalists turned out to be correct. However, the slavery point, is overplayed as a point as it was dying out anyway. Though, today, it's returning by making us all slaves to the state.

That still supports my point. It shows that our laws and our moral stances changed over time without divine influence. Man changed its own laws because man realized its previous beliefs were wrong. Despite the fact that the Bible supported or even encouraged the practices.