This is the board where Arsenal fans can discuss all things Arsenal, and any other football issues that they feel are of interest to Gunners. Opposition fans are welcome, but remember this board is from an Arsenal point of view. Off Topic Discussion should take place on the Off Topic Forum. Off Topic discussion will be removed. Any topic that is football related, within reason, is not off topic.

All the talk from the various "pundits" is that the Board will not be willing/cannot break the wage structure to keep him and in doing so open the flood gates for everyone else to demand mega bucks. They believe that RvP, fast appraching 30, will want his last big contract to be with a glory club like Real Madrid, who are renowned for making marquee signings like him.

I'd like to think that we can finish fourth, to offer him Champions League football, bring in some really decent signings to show intent to push on and really challenge for the domestic title and Champions League, and to offer him a decent contract.

I'd also like to think that with that package on offer and with him already being the main man at the club and on course to be one of our absloute iconic legends, that he loves the club enough to want to stay.

My feeling is that if we finish outside of the top 4 he'll definitely be offski (and fair enough I say) but what are the realistic prospects of him staying if we do finish fourth or higher...?

he is a loyal player, will still have a year on his contract and will not ask to leave, club will also offer him massive pay deal to stay, the club stood by him both through his string of injuries and his off field problems, RVP will stand by the club. He is happy here, he is playing his best football and he knows that the main reason for that is the team is built round him and to go elsewhere he could very well find it hard to get to his top playing level.

eduardohe is a loyal player, will still have a year on his contract and will not ask to leave, club will also offer him massive pay deal to stay, the club stood by him both through his string of injuries and his off field problems, RVP will stand by the club. He is happy here, he is playing his best football and he knows that the main reason for that is the team is built round him and to go elsewhere he could very well find it hard to get to his top playing level.

I think we all hope edurdo is right - the bigger issue is what if he is wrong. This has been the problem all alomng. We were never going to do any of things we have in fact done and they would never have the impact on the team they in fc=act have, and yet too many Gooners keep moving the goalposts then to allow for their sense that nothing is wrong.

In all seriousness Eduardo what are you prepared to say or do if they let him go the same way for the same reasons, and if nothing why?

give it a rest you wum, no matter what answer I give you that you don't like will be ignored and claimed to be a question not answered, so as I have told you before I'm no longer getting into this endless nonsence with you.

He is a loyal player, will still have a year on his contract and will not ask to leave, club will also offer him massive pay deal to stay, the club stood by him both through his string of injuries and his off field problems, RVP will stand by the club. He is happy here, he is playing his best football and he knows that the main reason for that is the team is built round him and to go elsewhere he could very well find it hard to get to his top playing level.

Yes, fair enough, all players seem loyal - when they're playing for a club. Cesc was loyal - remember?

At the end of the day, standing by a player through "a string of injuries" is no more than a club should do when a player is contracted to play for them. Success, quodos and money seems to be what makes players happy and they'll go wherever they think they can get it.

RvP may well feel that he has served the club well and that he owes the club nothing when it comes around to negotiating a new contract. If the Board can't won't can't offer him what he wants (and let's face it, it might not even be within its power to offer him what he wants if we haven't secured Champions League football next season and the bargaining power that will provide to lure decent players to the club to offer) he may well feel he has to act in his own best interests rather than that of the club.

We have to secure him long term this summer - without a doubt. Waiting until he's almost out of contract is too much of a gamble.

My feeling is that if it was as nailed on for him to stay as you seem to think it is Eduardo, he would have wanted to put all this speculation to bed and would have signed a new contract by now - or at the very least have been making positive noises that he wants to stay. He hasn't though has he?

That's exactly what I'd do if I were in the shoes that you've described him as being in Eduardo.

I think even if he don't sign a new deal this summer, he will not ask for a transfer, and the club will not sell him, they will at his age be far more willing to let him run the last year of his deal down, with the chance that he would eventually sign on again anyway in 2013.

It works both ways, if the player owes the club nothing as he is merely contracted to them, then in turn the club owe him nothing and are fully within their rights to make him stay for the full lenght of his.

eduardogive it a rest you wum, no matter what answer I give you that you don't like will be ignored and claimed to be a question not answered, so as I have told you before I'm no longer getting into this endless nonsence with you.

eduardogive it a rest you wum, no matter what answer I give you that you don't like will be ignored and claimed to be a question not answered, so as I have told you before I'm no longer getting into this endless nonsence with you.

can i nominate this post of the month

what is a wum

WUM = Wind Up Merchant

Quite incredible that you of all people didn't know that or is this a wind up?

eduardogive it a rest you wum, no matter what answer I give you that you don't like will be ignored and claimed to be a question not answered, so as I have told you before I'm no longer getting into this endless nonsence with you.

Most recently, Arsenal's main revenue has come from the sale of players. I hope that the owner/Board are not seeing this as another opportunity to make another big score. Then it'll really confirmed that Kronke has transformed Arsenal into a feeder club.

HG has our biggest revenue been from player sales, is it more than what we got for the property sales, from ticket sales, from sponsership, also arsenal's main expendature has been on players so what does that mean for kroenke

add up the sale of the flats, the other property sales, the sponsorship money, the £3M a home game, the TV money
and as I said we spend way more on players than we get in on them, buys and wages - as you say add it up HG

What a shock the blind loyaloists who care more about what they want to believe Arsenal represnts than Arsenal Football Club itself because and don't care ioif the Club cheats people oout of thousands of pounds every week because loyalty is just letting yourself be cheated in your Mentality because standing up for what is right isn't cricket. What a sho0chk the same bunch would agree.

Shocking really. And save your wind-up merchant claim for someone who is silly enough to worry that might be true. It's the last refuge of someone who can never admit they're wrong about anything Eddy. And even if were in fact proven 100% right you'd die before you would ever admit it. If you're afraid to be wrong you'll never ever be right either mate. But that's your problem. Just don't pretend Arsenal is more important to you than the millionaires who run it because you're right you'll never prove it be because you aren't capable of it in the end. It requires admitting you might be wrong and giving a damn about the consequences of that possibility.

I can say from the bottom of my heart I hope you are right and I am wrong, That's more than you ever could say, especially if you're wrong. My guess is you'll go the way of s***srule if that happens. Fear not you won't be the only one. The blind-faithers never stand up to be counted when they're wrong.

Save it mate - amzing how your judgment of people is totally dependent upon them agreeing with you.

I might actually like you if I met you. I suspect you're not capable of liking anyone who doesn't follow your thinking 100% and save the effort proving me wrong. You're not even the worst example of that.

Amazing -question people who don't care what the Board does or what it does to the club and you're a WUM. Ignore those issues and you're a proper Gooner. Yeah....that's the ticket.

As I have said before imagine how annoying it gets saying itt over and over. If people would just stand up instead offering offering excuses for them not to or for the Board to act as they do, I wouldn't have had to express the concerns all the way back to the summer of 2005.

Now as you say our views are fairly similar so fair enough - we just rub each other the wrong way, ehich happens. I don't have nearly the problem with you personally that I do with the real blind loyalists who happily ignore facts that don't firt to their happy vision of Arsenal as Football's Football's Camelot, Shangri-La , Brigadoon, or Glocca Morra where is everything is the way it has always been and is supposed to be. Again I wish they were right and I was wrong. But I think you would agree that if I am not right neither are they. And that is all I care about is finding out what actually is going on and hoping that if we care enough maybe they can fix it before we end up seeing s***s @#$%& marching into the Emirates witha 2004....OH DEAR flag.

I know it's only seven year but that's what those @#$%& were saying back in 1968.

So I get it - it's a drag, but watching us go trophyless for no good reason year after year is a bigger drag isn't it?

RadioFreeArsenalSave it mate - amzing how your judgment of people is totally dependent upon them agreeing with you.
I might actually like you if I met you. I suspect you're not capable of liking anyone who doesn't follow your thinking 100% and save the effort proving me wrong. You're not even the worst example of that.

Amazing -question people who don't care what the Board does or what it does to the club and you're a WUM. Ignore those issues and you're a proper Gooner. Yeah....that's the ticket.

Talking about tickets, this is my first season since 1987 that I have not held a season ticket. I cancelled my renewing as I feel quite similar to you. The 6% was just a rise too far as I knew the extra funds would not go to adding to the squad with quality. I could afford it but I'm tired of being lied to and making these business men even richer. I know your frustration. In my local the conversation is ninety nine percent what you have said.

He's not your avergae football player and by that I mean he has morals, standards and his life outside of football is also important to him. He's matured as a person with the captaincy he won't give that up. I think we would have to really @#$%& him off for him to leave.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hate the supporters feel that way at all, and that the only way we might actually communicate our frustration and anger is to make choices like this. We should never have to make this choice.

But we should never have had and loyalty or trust taken for granted as brazenly as it appears to have been either. Just a sad situation all around. Unfortunately it seems obvious the people running our club have no shame on their own and haven't for some time now.

But neither was Henry or Vieira or Pires or Sol Campbell...or Cesc Fabregas...or Edu...

Look the Club have a real chance here to undo a lot of PR damage send a real staeentt of intent to the supporters the season ticket holders, the Premier League, European football, and top players around the world starting be offering Robin a more realistically competitive wage instead of simply taking his reputed loyalty for granted and offering him a small raise and making no effort to build a better side for him to be the star of.

After all the big issue with Ashley Cole wasn't the 5,000 GBP a week but the sense that shouldn't complain because he was a loyal Arsenal Man. More players leave teams for that reason than do for money itself in every sport. If David Dein hadn't appealed to Cole's loyalty and implied that it meant he had no business feeling aggrieved about the extra 5,000 GBP and upset by this he might for better or worse still be an Arsenal player. It was the disrespect in the way his concerns were dealt with that made a bad situation untenable.

Do we dare risk making that same mistake again. The raise itself in monetary terms won't be as important I suspect as the symblolism of it to Robin combined with the reality that itt may allow us to build a better team for him to achieve his goals at Arsenal rather than elsewhere.

If he leaves I sure hope they don't think that just trying to replace will be good enough for Arsenal or for the supporters. The thing is we have to let them know that instead of letting them think they can get away with it.

[quote RadioFreeArsenal]I'm sorry to hear that. I hate the supporters feel that way at all, and that the only way we might actually communicate our frustration and anger is to make choices like this. We should never have to make this choice.

But we should never have had and loyalty or trust taken for granted as brazenly as it appears to have been either. Just a sad situation all around. Unfortunately it seems obvious the people running our club have no shame on their own and haven't for some time now.[/quote

what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

weedzMy main worry is that despite our board saying that they will pull out all the stops to keep him here, an offer of 50m+ will force the club into selling our main asset.
In saying this, I accept that such an offer is unlikely in the present financial climate.

I doubt force is the right word here. I mean we have undersold many of our best and most valuable players since 2005, even if they are of greater value to us than the buying clubs (which really is what should dictate the price unless selling players for whatever we can get is the more important priority).

But no I don't think anyone forces our club to take profits in at every oppotunity.

highburyfieldsfor71 what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

Well you have gotten your money's worth at least even if mostly away from the matches as at them! But I think it's a shame really is all that the people running our club show so little reagard from the supporters simply because even being richer than they already are is all that seems to matter to them or at least their actions strongly suggest that.

I think Peter Hill-Wood's family and Lady Bracewell-Smith's family - those who proceded them at Arsenal - are ashamed of their conduct and the obvious greed that drove it and how clearly it has damaged something they woked so hard to build into the very special football club it was. And if that is the case I don't blame their predecessors one bit.

Silly boy nobody is suggesting he is going to Liverpool. On the contrary the worry is he might have played his last match there unless he goes back in the Champions League with another club from the Continent. That would be why he would take pics probably.

highburyfieldsfor71 what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

Well you have gotten your money's worth at least even if mostly away from the matches as at them! But I think it's a shame really is all that the people running our club show so little reagard from the supporters simply because even being richer than they already are is all that seems to matter to them or at least their actions strongly suggest that.

I think Peter Hill-Wood's family and Lady Bracewell-Smith's family - those who proceded them at Arsenal - are ashamed of their conduct and the obvious greed that drove it and how clearly it has damaged something they woked so hard to build into the very special football club it was. And if that is the case I don't blame their predecessors one bit.

the american doesn't surprise me in the slightest. If these businessmen owned every dollar on the planet they'd still want more. You just have to look at the likes of Mitt Romney to see its all about the buck and to heck with whoever suffers for their greed. PHW indeed, I am surprised with him. He is a disgrace to his father. But I don't think the likes of you or I and other like minded fans will make any difference in the long run. There will always be somebody prepared to pay into see the gunners and settle for a lot less than they deserve. I look at the 97 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and then I look at this current squad. We shouldn't be fighting for third or fourth and be cock the hoop when we get it. We should be battling it out at the summit. And throw in an FA cup for good measure. I get a horrible feeling we're heading back to the mid eighties. Thatcher's reign was bad for us as a country, but a cold night on the north bank under Don Howe was a double whammy.

highburyfieldsfor71 what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

Well you have gotten your money's worth at least even if mostly away from the matches as at them! But I think it's a shame really is all that the people running our club show so little reagard from the supporters simply because even being richer than they already are is all that seems to matter to them or at least their actions strongly suggest that.

I think Peter Hill-Wood's family and Lady Bracewell-Smith's family - those who proceded them at Arsenal - are ashamed of their conduct and the obvious greed that drove it and how clearly it has damaged something they woked so hard to build into the very special football club it was. And if that is the case I don't blame their predecessors one bit.

the american doesn't surprise me in the slightest. If these businessmen owned every dollar on the planet they'd still want more. You just have to look at the likes of Mitt Romney to see its all about the buck and to heck with whoever suffers for their greed. PHW indeed, I am surprised with him. He is a disgrace to his father. But I don't think the likes of you or I and other like minded fans will make any difference in the long run. There will always be somebody prepared to pay into see the gunners and settle for a lot less than they deserve. I look at the 97 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and then I look at this current squad. We shouldn't be fighting for third or fourth and be cock the hoop when we get it. We should be battling it out at the summit. And throw in an FA cup for good measure. I get a horrible feeling we're heading back to the mid eighties. Thatcher's reign was bad for us as a country, but a cold night on the north bank under Don Howe was a double whammy.

Spot on.

Look at the ticket prices
Look at the fact we're amongst the richest clubs in the world

The club have lowered expectations to make us believe finishing in the top 4 is an achievement. It may be for small time mugs like the vermin but considering our stature, and the resources available a top 4 finish on its own is far from good enough.

dont be silly PK he is obvioulsy taking pictures of english grounds because he is leaving as he as done at every game away this season for example.............erm hmmmmmmm, strange i think of any others but im sure thats besides the point

Possible. Just doesn't seem likely. I would say taking the pics for someone else makes more sense if anything. I would suppose he could easily obtain pics from the match itself to celebrate that..

I don't understand why anyone would want empty pics of a stadium anyway - but then I have a great aerial shot of THOF framed on my bookshelf. Who knows? It just doesn't sound right is all. Wouldn't say it proves anything, other than some of us already doubt he is staying and are looking at any clue we can to try and say otherwsse.

RadioFreeArsenalPossible. Just doesn't seem likely. I would say taking the pics for someone else makes more sense if anything. I would suppose he could easily obtain pics from the match itself to celebrate that..
I don't understand why anyone would want empty pics of a stadium anyway - but then I have a great aerial shot of THOF framed on my bookshelf. Who knows? It just doesn't sound right is all. Wouldn't say it proves anything, other than some of us already doubt he is staying and are looking at any clue we can to try and say otherwsse.

Agreed - if he hadn't already been there about 10 previous matches. Now if he simply took pics of the scoreboard I would agree fully with your reading of this.

But like I say that we are even speculating on these thing shows how uncertain we are at best he is staying. If you go back we did the same sorts of things with Vieira, Henry, Pires and every other player its about in such instances.

07/08 - 1-1 draw (Cesc) He didnt play. He did come on the CL 2nd leg when we were 2-1 down, along with Walcott
08/09 - 4-4 (Arshavin x 4) - He didnt play
09/10 - 1-2 (Arshavin and OG) - He didnt play
10/11 - 1-1 (OG) - He came on at the end, I remember as we brought him on right after they brought Torres on
06/07 - 4-1 defeat (Gallas scored) - he didn't play (I checked)
05/06 - 1-0 defeat (Garcia right at the end) - he didn't play (checked)
04/05 - 2-1 defeat (Mellor in the last minute) -didn't play (I checked)

So scoring a last minute winner at Anfield, trust me mate it was something special, everyone went ballistic.

Mate I'm usually a miserable f*cker, Youre right about the board and players sales etc etc , but I can't see that this means anything!!

Agreed but other than taking a pic of scoreboard what is the point? I mean we can take pics of an enpty ground any time we can get inside.

Like I say either he was taking the pics for someone else or just taking pics of the scoreboard which would rightly be pretty special for him in this instance. That would make sense. Otherwise there is no reason to just take pics that day

highburyfieldsfor71 what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

Well you have gotten your money's worth at least even if mostly away from the matches as at them! But I think it's a shame really is all that the people running our club show so little reagard from the supporters simply because even being richer than they already are is all that seems to matter to them or at least their actions strongly suggest that.

I think Peter Hill-Wood's family and Lady Bracewell-Smith's family - those who proceded them at Arsenal - are ashamed of their conduct and the obvious greed that drove it and how clearly it has damaged something they woked so hard to build into the very special football club it was. And if that is the case I don't blame their predecessors one bit.

the american doesn't surprise me in the slightest. If these businessmen owned every dollar on the planet they'd still want more. You just have to look at the likes of Mitt Romney to see its all about the buck and to heck with whoever suffers for their greed. PHW indeed, I am surprised with him. He is a disgrace to his father. But I don't think the likes of you or I and other like minded fans will make any difference in the long run. There will always be somebody prepared to pay into see the gunners and settle for a lot less than they deserve. I look at the 97 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and then I look at this current squad. We shouldn't be fighting for third or fourth and be cock the hoop when we get it. We should be battling it out at the summit. And throw in an FA cup for good measure. I get a horrible feeling we're heading back to the mid eighties. Thatcher's reign was bad for us as a country, but a cold night on the north bank under Don Howe was a double whammy.

Spot on.

Look at the ticket prices
Look at the fact we're amongst the richest clubs in the world

The club have lowered expectations to make us believe finishing in the top 4 is an achievement. It may be for small time mugs like the vermin but considering our stature, and the resources available a top 4 finish on its own is far from good enough.

Also, its not as if Man City or Utd are any great shakes. If we had a forward thinking chairman and not a money grabber and added a player here and there and upped the wage structure for the top earners we'd be fighting it out for first. But alas, Kronke appears happy the way things are. The manager is still making him a lot of money. Its a double edged sword really, this mini revival. If we get third which I imagine is a certainty now spurs' nose bleed has set in and they have suddenly got all dizzy and confused being so high up - Wenger will feel vindicated and perhaps again no signings of note.

Also what worries me is the managers attitude regarding the CL game tomorrow. He's talking all gung ho which is crazy. Surely its time to rest RVP and a couple of others and forget the impossible and concentrate on getting third spot. Why risk injuries in a game we cannot possibly claw back. We've got out of jail in the league. Should wenger not follow the old saying of quit while your ahead and forget the CL for this year. We don't play again till next Monday, that would be a nice turbo boost for RVPs batteries.

And just a mad thought. On the subject of throwing the CL and concentrating on the CL places. Why not offer RVP the 25 million qualifying money to stay for another three years. Buy 2 or 3 proven players of real quality, pay the wages they demand and shift a lot of wengers failed experiment. And bring in a defensive coach. Just a thought.

Philly the kidDude. You talk of showing ambition, yet want to throw the chance to claw back some self respect and pride?
I don't understand your angle.
Sorry.

No angle really. Just think the Milan game is a foregone conclusion and perhaps live to fight another day. And that another day is next season with CL qualifying; but only if he keeps the team fresh. We have just got a get out of jail free card with the recent great forum and demise of Chelsea and patchy form of Liverpool and Spurs at last finding their level and will beneath us in the next four games where they belong. But only if the manager is sensible and keeps his players fresh. I'd give RVP the next five days off to chill out and take it easy. Imagine how sick you would be if you watch us drawing 1 - 1 in the second half tomorrow and it hits the 80th minute and RVP goes down with an injury that rules him out of the next 6 games. I'd puke personally. Its not worth the risk. I think that is what I was getting at. What do you think of my give RVP the 25 million qualifying money? At one stage IG was preparing for no entry into next seasons group stages. Be hard for the player to resist. Then splash some of that stored away Howard Hughes lolly on 2 or 3 even 4 pedigree players and pay them the going rate. Dump all the wenger experiments and cheapies: the Diaby's, Gibbs, Walcotts, Santos, Squeeky, Jenkinson, Almunia, Flappy, Chamawful, Park, Rosiky. A good time to start afresh.

No, RS. I'm game for most things except I'm older than John Barnes so as much as the heart is willing the old legs don't hold RVPs youth. But I think trying anything at this stage to keep him is worth a try. Hypnosis, consulting a genie, attaching him to a child harness, or giving him the CL pot nobody thought we'd get anyway. Anything to ward off the Don Howe years.

The following horror is from the 1983/84 season. I don't want to go back to those days.

I'm afraid I was using Mr Howe's tenure as a metaphor. Just think it's a good time to build now rather than stagnate. It would be a disaster to lose RVP. I think if genuine investment was shown with a few really top players not failing to add a pocket bulging offer that he could not refuse. Might be happy days again.

highburyfieldsfor71 what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

Well you have gotten your money's worth at least even if mostly away from the matches as at them! But I think it's a shame really is all that the people running our club show so little reagard from the supporters simply because even being richer than they already are is all that seems to matter to them or at least their actions strongly suggest that.

I think Peter Hill-Wood's family and Lady Bracewell-Smith's family - those who proceded them at Arsenal - are ashamed of their conduct and the obvious greed that drove it and how clearly it has damaged something they woked so hard to build into the very special football club it was. And if that is the case I don't blame their predecessors one bit.

the american doesn't surprise me in the slightest. If these businessmen owned every dollar on the planet they'd still want more. You just have to look at the likes of Mitt Romney to see its all about the buck and to heck with whoever suffers for their greed. PHW indeed, I am surprised with him. He is a disgrace to his father. But I don't think the likes of you or I and other like minded fans will make any difference in the long run. There will always be somebody prepared to pay into see the gunners and settle for a lot less than they deserve. I look at the 97 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and then I look at this current squad. We shouldn't be fighting for third or fourth and be cock the hoop when we get it. We should be battling it out at the summit. And throw in an FA cup for good measure. I get a horrible feeling we're heading back to the mid eighties. Thatcher's reign was bad for us as a country, but a cold night on the north bank under Don Howe was a double whammy.

Spot on.

Look at the ticket prices
Look at the fact we're amongst the richest clubs in the world

The club have lowered expectations to make us believe finishing in the top 4 is an achievement. It may be for small time mugs like the vermin but considering our stature, and the resources available a top 4 finish on its own is far from good enough.

Also, its not as if Man City or Utd are any great shakes. If we had a forward thinking chairman and not a money grabber and added a player here and there and upped the wage structure for the top earners we'd be fighting it out for first. But alas, Kronke appears happy the way things are. The manager is still making him a lot of money. Its a double edged sword really, this mini revival. If we get third which I imagine is a certainty now spurs' nose bleed has set in and they have suddenly got all dizzy and confused being so high up - Wenger will feel vindicated and perhaps again no signings of note.

Also what worries me is the managers attitude regarding the CL game tomorrow. He's talking all gung ho which is crazy. Surely its time to rest RVP and a couple of others and forget the impossible and concentrate on getting third spot. Why risk injuries in a game we cannot possibly claw back. We've got out of jail in the league. Should wenger not follow the old saying of quit while your ahead and forget the CL for this year. We don't play again till next Monday, that would be a nice turbo boost for RVPs batteries.

And just a mad thought. On the subject of throwing the CL and concentrating on the CL places. Why not offer RVP the 25 million qualifying money to stay for another three years. Buy 2 or 3 proven players of real quality, pay the wages they demand and shift a lot of wengers failed experiment. And bring in a defensive coach. Just a thought.

Most have been asking for that for a few years now mate.

Thing is though we always seem to be a few players short. Everyone knows it, yet nothing is done.

highburyfieldsfor71 what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white a few years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.

Well you have gotten your money's worth at least even if mostly away from the matches as at them! But I think it's a shame really is all that the people running our club show so little reagard from the supporters simply because even being richer than they already are is all that seems to matter to them or at least their actions strongly suggest that.

I think Peter Hill-Wood's family and Lady Bracewell-Smith's family - those who proceded them at Arsenal - are ashamed of their conduct and the obvious greed that drove it and how clearly it has damaged something they woked so hard to build into the very special football club it was. And if that is the case I don't blame their predecessors one bit.

the american doesn't surprise me in the slightest. If these businessmen owned every dollar on the planet they'd still want more. You just have to look at the likes of Mitt Romney to see its all about the buck and to heck with whoever suffers for their greed. PHW indeed, I am surprised with him. He is a disgrace to his father. But I don't think the likes of you or I and other like minded fans will make any difference in the long run. There will always be somebody prepared to pay into see the gunners and settle for a lot less than they deserve. I look at the 97 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and then I look at this current squad. We shouldn't be fighting for third or fourth and be cock the hoop when we get it. We should be battling it out at the summit. And throw in an FA cup for good measure. I get a horrible feeling we're heading back to the mid eighties. Thatcher's reign was bad for us as a country, but a cold night on the north bank under Don Howe was a double whammy.

Spot on.

Look at the ticket prices
Look at the fact we're amongst the richest clubs in the world

The club have lowered expectations to make us believe finishing in the top 4 is an achievement. It may be for small time mugs like the vermin but considering our stature, and the resources available a top 4 finish on its own is far from good enough.

Also, its not as if Man City or Utd are any great shakes. If we had a forward thinking chairman and not a money grabber and added a player here and there and upped the wage structure for the top earners we'd be fighting it out for first. But alas, Kronke appears happy the way things are. The manager is still making him a lot of money. Its a double edged sword really, this mini revival. If we get third which I imagine is a certainty now spurs' nose bleed has set in and they have suddenly got all dizzy and confused being so high up - Wenger will feel vindicated and perhaps again no signings of note.

Also what worries me is the managers attitude regarding the CL game tomorrow. He's talking all gung ho which is crazy. Surely its time to rest RVP and a couple of others and forget the impossible and concentrate on getting third spot. Why risk injuries in a game we cannot possibly claw back. We've got out of jail in the league. Should wenger not follow the old saying of quit while your ahead and forget the CL for this year. We don't play again till next Monday, that would be a nice turbo boost for RVPs batteries.

And just a mad thought. On the subject of throwing the CL and concentrating on the CL places. Why not offer RVP the 25 million qualifying money to stay for another three years. Buy 2 or 3 proven players of real quality, pay the wages they demand and shift a lot of wengers failed experiment. And bring in a defensive coach. Just a thought.

Most have been asking for that for a few years now mate.

Thing is though we always seem to be a few players short. Everyone knows it, yet nothing is done.

Fingers crossed this time.

that's a fact. Maybe they've realised with the sponsors coming up for renewal soon that they'd better do something. Oh, I don't know. I wish. I'll scream if we go through another summer window like last.

RadioFreeArsenalWhat a shock the blind loyaloists who care more about what they want to believe Arsenal represnts than Arsenal Football Club itself because and don't care ioif the Club cheats people oout of thousands of pounds every week because loyalty is just letting yourself be cheated in your Mentality because standing up for what is right isn't cricket. What a sho0chk the same bunch would agree.
Shocking really. And save your wind-up merchant claim for someone who is silly enough to worry that might be true. It's the last refuge of someone who can never admit they're wrong about anything Eddy. And even if were in fact proven 100% right you'd die before you would ever admit it. If you're afraid to be wrong you'll never ever be right either mate. But that's your problem. Just don't pretend Arsenal is more important to you than the millionaires who run it because you're right you'll never prove it be because you aren't capable of it in the end. It requires admitting you might be wrong and giving a damn about the consequences of that possibility.

I can say from the bottom of my heart I hope you are right and I am wrong, That's more than you ever could say, especially if you're wrong. My guess is you'll go the way of s***srule if that happens. Fear not you won't be the only one. The blind-faithers never stand up to be counted when they're wrong.

[quote highburyfieldsfor71][quote RadioFreeArsenal]I'm sorry to hear that. I hate the supporters feel that way at all, and that the only way we might actually communicate our frustration and anger is to make choices like this. We should never have to make this choice.

But we should never have had and loyalty or trust taken for granted as brazenly as it appears to have been either. Just a sad situation all around. Unfortunately it seems obvious the people running our club have no shame on their own and haven't for some time now.[/quote

what else can we do? Obviously I'd prefer to be at the games same as a lot of the lads who I have a few drinks with. But unless something radical happens I can't see much change at the club. I'm certainly not handing over my money anymore to watch the likes of Arteta and Gibbs and Ramsey. Average players that wouldn't have got a place in the boot room let alone wearing the famous red and white afew years ago. I've caught a couple of foreign derby's so far this season (The two Milan's and I was in Madrid to see the home team against Barcelona and its still working out cheaper. And I'm including hotels, flights and ale money for the AFC games I watch in the pub and mandatory Indian on the way home. As for RVP staying. I hope so, but I doubt it. I know some fans are still a bit deluded in believing in loyalty. I have to say I think he'll leave sadly. Hope I'm wrong, I often am.[/quote]

If you had of watched some of our teams from the mid 70s and early to mid 80s, you wouldn`t say that.

Mikel Arteta is, statistically, a top3 player in Europe. In his passes made and his passing accuracy he averages over 100 passes a game @ over 90% accuracy. This puts him in the Xavi and Iniesta territory. I suppose you wouldn`t waste your money on them either?

weedzMikel Arteta is, statistically, a top3 player in Europe. In his passes made and his passing accuracy he averages over 100 passes a game @ over 90% accuracy. This puts him in the Xavi and Iniesta territory. I suppose you wouldn`t waste your money on them either?

Such stats would make Denilson the best passer in the history of the game.

Wigan away last year - he had the most touches in a game than any other player in any game in the league last season - we drew 2-2 and he was dogsh*t

Having said that I like Arteta, he's done well for us and we miss him when he's out. But going on stats is pretty pointless mate

RadioFreeArsenalWhat a shock the blind loyaloists who care more about what they want to believe Arsenal represnts than Arsenal Football Club itself because and don't care ioif the Club cheats people oout of thousands of pounds every week because loyalty is just letting yourself be cheated in your Mentality because standing up for what is right isn't cricket. What a sho0chk the same bunch would agree.
Shocking really. And save your wind-up merchant claim for someone who is silly enough to worry that might be true. It's the last refuge of someone who can never admit they're wrong about anything Eddy. And even if were in fact proven 100% right you'd die before you would ever admit it. If you're afraid to be wrong you'll never ever be right either mate. But that's your problem. Just don't pretend Arsenal is more important to you than the millionaires who run it because you're right you'll never prove it be because you aren't capable of it in the end. It requires admitting you might be wrong and giving a damn about the consequences of that possibility.

I can say from the bottom of my heart I hope you are right and I am wrong, That's more than you ever could say, especially if you're wrong. My guess is you'll go the way of s***srule if that happens. Fear not you won't be the only one. The blind-faithers never stand up to be counted when they're wrong.

People in glass houses, mate

Problem is I would be happy to be wrong. Then fact is if I am wrong the team will be better and more successful and sooner rather than much later. I suppose you can say Iwouldn't care about being wrong, but I wouldn't give a damn about beuing right then either would I. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. People generally are right or wrong. Indeed it gets complicated when we don't want to admit we are wrong.

Look at the discussion with PK Gooner. Now he is right it could just be that he took pictures to commemorate the match at Anfield. I think He is bang-on if in fact her took pictures of the score board still lit and showing Liverpool 1, Arsenal 2 and that he had scored twice. I and others if that is the case as certainly is possible if not likely were wrong to over-react. See there it is - I was wrong - or probably wrong at least at least in reacting as I did without giving more thought to it.

I don't see whats the drama about him staying or losing. he should stay but maybe he'll do a Henry and become a non factor elsewhere only to come crawling back like he never left

but if he leaves then you just replace him...sometimes the team makes you look a whole lot better than you are and I can't think of another top team he could go to and get the amount of playing time he gets here

Once again no is saying this is the people's republic of Arsenalloa and to sufdggest otherwise is an out-and-out lie. I challange you to find one instance where I said the club should not earn a profit, one instance where I said the Board members weren't entitled to make even a healthy profit on their shares. Just one.

You won't ry because you know you can't find that exmaple becauise I have never said that at all. Of couse you can't argue with what I have said and lack the integrity to admit that. Period. So like Mr.,. Hill-Wood implying spending any more money could lead to us ending up like Leeds no matter how much was being let alone whether that was ever true, you deliberately misrepesent my words to fit your viewpoint because you can never admit you or the Board are Wwrong in what they did why they did it and how they did it. You just can't and never will even if it's proven 100% correct. You'll just say well we already knew that because you can't admit the truth, even the possible truth.

IO could be wrong of course and surely you can prove it then by finding one sentence where I said the club should not operate p[rofitably or the investors or even the inheritors weren't entitled to any ROI. Just the one. Given how much I have to say I should think that simple enough. Except I have never said it and you know it.

RadioFreeArsenalLike you neeed to tell anyone that.
Once again no is saying this is the people's republic of Arsenalloa and to sufdggest otherwise is an out-and-out lie. I challange you to find one instance where I said the club should not earn a profit, one instance where I said the Board members weren't entitled to make even a healthy profit on their shares. Just one.

You won't ry because you know you can't find that exmaple becauise I have never said that at all. Of couse you can't argue with what I have said and lack the integrity to admit that. Period. So like Mr.,. Hill-Wood implying spending any more money could lead to us ending up like Leeds no matter how much was being let alone whether that was ever true, you deliberately misrepesent my words to fit your viewpoint because you can never admit you or the Board are Wwrong in what they did why they did it and how they did it. You just can't and never will even if it's proven 100% correct. You'll just say well we already knew that because you can't admit the truth, even the possible truth.

IO could be wrong of course and surely you can prove it then by finding one sentence where I said the club should not operate p[rofitably or the investors or even the inheritors weren't entitled to any ROI. Just the one. Given how much I have to say I should think that simple enough. Except I have never said it and you know it.

I agree wholeheartedly with your frustrations. The trouble is when one voices such irritation it can be misconstrued by another party. My friends and I also feel that PHW is a Nefarious individual who saw the dollar signs and did a Pavlovs dog when he got an eyeful of that wedge that basically sold out his family birthright. PHW senior would rather have had a 1000 crows pecking at his face than to ever sell his Arsenal shares to an American vulture. PHW junior is a modern day Judas Iscariot. What angers me is that he still has an association with the club and adds his penny's worth to the Daily Star any chance he gets.

I hear what you are saying about the profits. You are basically saying that the club is entitled to turn a profit and that the owner is entitled to some; but not at the expense of the footballing fans who treated with contempt. And a great deal of those profits should be invested into the squad to put out a competitive side onto the field of play.

I doubt many would have complained should this have been the case, but alas, as you point out, it is not. It is sell, sell, sell players, hike, hike, hike prices, feather, feather, feather ones nest and put a rather average team out on the field.

Considering we have the finest most modern stadium in Europe, would it not be wise to have a team to compliment such a fine structure? But if the Kronke/Gazidis partnership continue to line their pockets and do everything on a cut price basis it will alienate the hardcore following. I'm not alone in giving up my season ticket. One of the lads I play golf with is a very wealthy businessman and has quit his membership out of principle. He didn't get to his status and station in business by not knowing a thing or thing about a thing or two. He said to me he knows when he's being taking for a ride and can't see how the club can succeed in the long term with such a vulture-like strategy.

We keep hoping for change, and again have a side to be proud of but if the current board (Kronke) continue doing what Waldo Emerson says 'If you keep doing what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.' ie another Dogday summer, with great possibility of losing the hottest striker in Europe - and final hour replacements in the mould of some guy who used to be good for Everton.

Supporting Arsenal is like 'Silence Of The Lambs' - I often wake up in the middle of the night when I hear the voices in my head screaming "Spend some money."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2012 11:52 by highburyfieldsfor71.

Philly the kidDude. You talk of showing ambition, yet want to throw the chance to claw back some self respect and pride?
I don't understand your angle.
Sorry.

No angle really. Just think the Milan game is a foregone conclusion and perhaps live to fight another day. And that another day is next season with CL qualifying; but only if he keeps the team fresh. We have just got a get out of jail free card with the recent great forum and demise of Chelsea and patchy form of Liverpool and Spurs at last finding their level and will beneath us in the next four games where they belong. But only if the manager is sensible and keeps his players fresh. I'd give RVP the next five days off to chill out and take it easy. Imagine how sick you would be if you watch us drawing 1 - 1 in the second half tomorrow and it hits the 80th minute and RVP goes down with an injury that rules him out of the next 6 games. I'd puke personally. Its not worth the risk. I think that is what I was getting at. What do you think of my give RVP the 25 million qualifying money? At one stage IG was preparing for no entry into next seasons group stages. Be hard for the player to resist. Then splash some of that stored away Howard Hughes lolly on 2 or 3 even 4 pedigree players and pay them the going rate. Dump all the wenger experiments and cheapies: the Diaby's, Gibbs, Walcotts, Santos, Squeeky, Jenkinson, Almunia, Flappy, Chamawful, Park, Rosiky. A good time to start afresh.

For my mind though, the point is that RVP wants us to show ambition to make him stay.
Throwing the CL (no matter how tough a score we have to overturn) would be exactly the opposite of showing ambition.
Can't have your cake and eat it -in this case- i'm afraid!!

Philly the kidDude. You talk of showing ambition, yet want to throw the chance to claw back some self respect and pride?
I don't understand your angle.
Sorry.

No angle really. Just think the Milan game is a foregone conclusion and perhaps live to fight another day. And that another day is next season with CL qualifying; but only if he keeps the team fresh. We have just got a get out of jail free card with the recent great forum and demise of Chelsea and patchy form of Liverpool and Spurs at last finding their level and will beneath us in the next four games where they belong. But only if the manager is sensible and keeps his players fresh. I'd give RVP the next five days off to chill out and take it easy. Imagine how sick you would be if you watch us drawing 1 - 1 in the second half tomorrow and it hits the 80th minute and RVP goes down with an injury that rules him out of the next 6 games. I'd puke personally. Its not worth the risk. I think that is what I was getting at. What do you think of my give RVP the 25 million qualifying money? At one stage IG was preparing for no entry into next seasons group stages. Be hard for the player to resist. Then splash some of that stored away Howard Hughes lolly on 2 or 3 even 4 pedigree players and pay them the going rate. Dump all the wenger experiments and cheapies: the Diaby's, Gibbs, Walcotts, Santos, Squeeky, Jenkinson, Almunia, Flappy, Chamawful, Park, Rosiky. A good time to start afresh.

For my mind though, the point is that RVP wants us to show ambition to make him stay.
Throwing the CL (no matter how tough a score we have to overturn) would be exactly the opposite of showing ambition.
Can't have your cake and eat it -in this case- i'm afraid!!

I'm just looking at the probable team sheets. There are hardly any fit midfielders left so he has to play four strikers. Has the making of a very entertaining game. I've been resting my drinking my drinking arm since Saturday so its match fit for the pub tonight. I suppose you're right - throw caution to the wind and live for today. It will the mother of all comebacks if they pull it off. If we score a couple early on it could rattle the Italians. Lyon came back from 4 -2 against Madrid one year, and Deportivo came back from 4 - 1 against Milan. Game on!

Missed your last post replying to me - terrific post really. I think so long as we sas a supporter base don't ask the hard uqestions and demand the honest answers absolutely nothing will change until at the earliest when its well and truly long too late.

Look at the loyalty bonus to Robin. They would rather pay him that than break the wage structure it appears nad besides we all know what happened when Henry got the same deal and Cesc a similar deal they were sold and for well below their value to US the vey next year. Is there anyone who can say with absolute certainty that isn't exactly what they are doing here? Absolutley not.

weedzMy main worry is that despite our board saying that they will pull out all the stops to keep him here, an offer of 50m+ will force the club into selling our main asset.
In saying this, I accept that such an offer is unlikely in the present financial climate.

I doubt force is the right word here. I mean we have undersold many of our best and most valuable players since 2005, even if they are of greater value to us than the buying clubs (which really is what should dictate the price unless selling players for whatever we can get is the more important priority).

But no I don't think anyone forces our club to take profits in at every oppotunity.

You are correct, force is the wrong word. Tempt is probably the correct term.

But I maintain my view, that if Arsenal were offered 50m+ for RvP, they would be tempted to take the dosh.

I still think you'd be half crazy to blow that much on RVP (and he is one of the best three strikers in the world). His history, age, and the fact that he probably wouldn't have a team built around him (read: less effective player) don't make it very logical.

That said I've never been one to make a case for Man City, Real, or any other number of teams spending logically. But at such figures I'd ask questions if we didn't consider it.

That's just it MJ - not every club views it as half-crazy to put winning things ahead of maximizing club profits , the share price and personal wealth ahead of competing to win things as clearly looks to be the case at Arsenal since 2005 no matter how badly some try to pretend that it was all coincidence or everything was forces on the Club and the Directors and just worked out very well for them in spite of that.

If your raison d'etre is to make a smaller profit or even none at all but win trophies instead of making as much profit as possible then you might just think he's worth a punt and will pay for himself ultimately through increased prize money for winning more competitions, marketing money, shirt sales, and TV revenue for more appearances. Of couyrse if your raison d'etre is just making the maximium profit at the minimum investment then of course you would think that crazy and prefer to be the club selling him and investing as little of that money back into the club as possible. But who thinks that way, right?

RadioFreeArsenalThat's just it MJ - not every club views it as half-crazy to put winning things ahead of maximizing club profits , the share price and personal wealth ahead of competing to win things as clearly looks to be the case at Arsenal since 2005 no matter how badly some try to pretend that it was all coincidence or everything was forces on the Club and the Directors and just worked out very well for them in spite of that.

If your raison d'etre is to make a smaller profit or even none at all but win trophies instead of making as much profit as possible then you might just think he's worth a punt and will pay for himself ultimately through increased prize money for winning more competitions, marketing money, shirt sales, and TV revenue for more appearances. Of couyrse if your raison d'etre is just making the maximium profit at the minimum investment then of course you would think that crazy and prefer to be the club selling him and investing as little of that money back into the club as possible. But who thinks that way, right?

Its head against the wall time, and I'm sick of banging my head against it. I know from a very good source that Podolski is signed and more are to come - but what use is that if RVP leaves? You can't replace quality like that. He is in the peak of his career and I would vomit if Man City take him. I know its crazy but I said give him the 25m CL pot, after all, Gazidis never expected us to get it in the first place. That's a show of intent.

He'd be one ligament rupture away from not playing - turn that down and add in wages and that's close to 60m the club would pass on for nothing if he left on a Bosman. 60m.

It's not passing on profits so much as being practical. And trust me when I say I love Robin, I never want to see him go and hope he ends his career with us. I've got three RVP kits, the guys my bloody desktop background. I'm borderline fanatic.

But unlike you I don't think we'd be in the relegation zone without him - we would be fine. Superstars have left Arsenal many times before and the world hasn't ended. I'm not about to blow open the bank to win one trophy just so we can say "hey, we won a trophy, now what?" And spend 15 years clawing ourselves back into the same financial position.

This is opening a whole new (or rather, reaaaally old) argument I don't want to get into. We all know how you feel Radiohead. You know exactly where to put the share prices.

When did I say we'd be in the relegation zone? I said we would be in the bottom half of the table and the facts back that up. We would be on no more than maybe 38 points more likely 34 and possibly even lower. Right now when you factor in the gd without robin that puts us in fourteenth place, but givem that the sixteenth place team is on 22 points I don't think we would have to worry about relegation at all. The worst we would finish is likely fifteenth but the best we would finish is maybe eleventh. Hardly a relegation fight but still a terrible season .

You're subtracting everything RVP has done for the team performances and assuming we played each match with 10 men, and would have willingly gone into the season with Chamakh as our first choice striker.

The problem you can only go by what we actually know. To argeu otherwise would make both the possibility of winning the Treble and being relegated without Robin be equally possible or even probable.

Give me on reason why you believe in fact this team would actually be better based on the performance of every individual player who has appeared in the team this year to this point than say in the bottom half of the table anywhere from eleventh to fifteenth without Robin.

Based on the reality that

Chamakh has scored once in the Premiership all year

Park Chu-Young has yet to score in the Premiership

Gervinho has scored four in the Premiership all year

Theo has scored five in the Premiership all year

AOC has scored two in the Premiership all year

Ramsey has scored two in the Premiership all year

Rosicky has scored once in the Premiership all year

Song has scored once in the Premiership all year

Thierry Henry payed for three weeks in January and was joint fourth leading scorer vfor the team all season

So again where is that improvement that will keep in the top ten going to come from?

We're not saying the same thing, because you're doing exactly what I said before - doing some grade school mathematics and subtracting RVP from our season.

RVP is an amazing goalscorer - he is also set up in the team to do exactly that.

If RVP wasn't here this season, we most certainly would have brought in another striker. I would hope even in between cursing out the board you would agree with me on that. You can't just take Robin out of the team because losing Robin changes everything.

And you can be certain that because the majority of our chances fall to our center forward they'd probably be the one scoring most.

It's pretty simple.

Henry was one of the best goalscorers in the EPL of all time, and he got shunted off the wing at Barca and how well did he do? So I don't exactly know what you're trying to argue.

Now for a little history lesson, Radio. We've been in the top 4 how many consecutive seasons? And in that time we've lost who again? Vieira, Bergkamp, Henry, Cesc, and sooooo many others. What have you seen in the last 10 years that makes you think losing one player now is going to going to drop us to the bottom half of the table?

Look we can't play the Butterfly Effect here though. First off no opne is saying why he would be out of the line-up. Could be with another . could be hurt again, could simply have @#$%& the manager off, could even have gotten into more serious trouble than after the false rape charge - so the argument you are making is pure specualtion at best.

I'm not denying your point about the basis of ny assessement. In fact I say that is the sole way to look at it because it is based on what we actually know about the actual team and players and how they have actually performed.

Like I say your view could just as easily suggest we win the treble as get relegated because it is based not in the actual facts but assumptions about a wholly different series of facts. It's loke the old "What If" comics Marvel used to publish where they showed what might have happened to Spiderman if say Gwen Stacy didn't die or what Daredevil would be like if he could see again.

Basically the debate here is what if Robin had been unavailble to play from September 1st since none of his goals altered results in our favor in the Premiership prior to then. This is not just the actual truth but convenient truth since of course the fact that he did not win Arsenal any points we would not have won prior to then also rules out the whole replacing him theory you lean upon.

The reason I say you are saying what I am saying is because you in fact agree there would be a sharp negative impact. Maybe not as sharp as I suggest but then what I am suggesting isn't what you suggest in fact I am suggesting. I am saying we likely would finish between 11th and 15th, nowhere below that, and maybe a bit above even but not anywhere near top four or top six even based on what we know about the team this year.

You tell me we'd be at best 11th in the league without Robin Van Persie.

Quote:

I said we would be in the bottom half of the table and the facts back that up.

Then I say that you don't have any fuc.king clue as to where we'd be. You have no facts.

Quote:

YOU DONT HAVE FACTS TO BACK THAT UP. NONE.

Then you have the gall to say I'm speculating? No sir, YOU are speculating. You just hide all your points behind an essay long post enough nobody will bother reading.

And then...

Quote:

The reason I say you are saying what I am saying is because you in fact agree there would be a sharp negative impact. Maybe not as sharp as I suggest but then what I am suggesting isn't what you suggest in fact I am suggesting. I am saying we likely would finish between 11th and 15th, nowhere below that, and maybe a bit above even but not anywhere near top four or top six even based on what we know about the team this year.

First off, I suggest you use suggest less than four times in a given sentence. Makes you sound mildly literate.

Second, I at least have something to go on. I have our clubs history, a record if you will, and while you are wildly speculating about where we might end up, I have quite conveniently pointed out to you that we have lost our most important players before and still maintained our top 4 status.

We would be in 15th place on Goal Difference behind Swansea. Those are FACTS, not speculation that suggests we had brought in better replacement or the replacements we have now would have suddenly become worldbeaters as you seem to want to believe.

We can only go by what we know at this point not what we think would have happened differently because how many goals between them do the other strikers have all year especially in the premiership? How many goals do the wide men have? How about the midfielders? In other words where would these other goals come from based on how these players have performmed this year - especially without the top play-maker in this year's team which Robin is probably as well though that in fact is a more objective assessment than who the top goal-scorer is.

BTW when you make your little statements on "everybody's" behalf it just shows you don't have any confidence in the validity of your own views on their own.It's also quite disrespectful of those whpo don't share your views and there are some who have made posts themselves that indicate they do not though I'm happy to let them say so themselves. I don't need to have the whole forum behind mre to know I'm right on this one.

And it really doesn't matter since Robin is here now. It may well matter next year. But it only matters now because you want to pretend this team is far better without Robin that it actually would be. I don't need to pretend everyone agrees with me to know that. I don't need to pretend anything to know it.

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