JFK ASSASSINATION ARGUMENTS (PART 1037)

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

"NICKNAME" SAID:

David, it's not that we don't appreciate the self-promotional aggrandizement of linking to your blog as proof Oswald did it, but just a tip? What I scrolled through remains some of the laziest and cliched crap to date. Virtually all of it is speculation, and the rest has long since been disproven. No other bullets found anywhere, really? The SBT has not been proven an impossibility, really? Marina Oswald testifies "[Oswald] just shot Walker". No dear, the correct quote should be "[Oswald] just shot AT Walker". And even that would be incorrect.

So thanks for pointing out that quote. (Although it really wasn't inaccurate as previously worded.)

Your other criticism is, of course, pure bunk. The Single-Bullet Theory is just as true (and logical) today as it ever was. And none of the items on my site have been "disproven" in any way at all. That's just wishful thinking and the usual CTer bloviating that we all have come to expect from rabid Internet conspiracists.

But thanks for pointing out the Marina quote. I like the updated quote better too (with the word "at" in there), because it is more accurate (since Oswald actually missed Walker instead of hitting him).

"NICK" SAID:

David, thanks for changing the quote. Still, it's problematic to me that you had it there in the first place, since you've always known Walker was only shot AT, but not shot. You may have simply been quoting Marina directly, but if you've always known the veracity of that quote to be wrong, then putting it in your blog was, in my humble opinion, meant to mislead.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I, too, am now wondering exactly where I got the original Marina quoted passage that I previously had on my blog. That part of the blog was originally written in July of 2003 at Debra Conway's JFK Lancer forum (HERE). And I certainly didn't include it to "mislead" anybody. I don't know of anyone who thinks General Walker really was shot.

And since I used the " ... " method of quoting Marina there, I think I must have been quoting directly from a source that had it written out in just that way (with the dots [ellipsis] in there). But it's not from the Warren Report and it's not from Gerald Posner's book (I checked). And it can't be from Vincent Bugliosi's book either, because his JFK book was still four years away from being published. So I don't know exactly where that came from. But it's not really inaccurate at all, because, as I said before, Marina did use the words "I just shot General Walker" in her HSCA testimony. But having the "AT" in there is better. So thanks again.

"NICK" SAID:

You state the majority of Dealey Plaza witnesses said shots came from behind the President, in the direction of the School Book Depository Building. There are a couple of problems with this. First of all, where were these people standing? Were they at the coveted Elm perspective, or were they halfway up Houston closer to Main Street? This makes a BIG difference.

Secondly, you cite the McAdams pie charts to show 53.8% of witnesses heard shots from TSBD. That's fine, because there probably WERE shots fired from there, so how that number looks on a pie chart is also misleading. The fact is, the chart also says 33.7% heard shots from the Knoll as well, which is no small percentage regardless of the number of spectators we say were in DP that day.

I'm only citing the numbers on the first pie chart; there are four pie charts in total, from four different sources, but look what they all have in common: a substantial number believe shots came from both the TSBD and the GK [Grassy Knoll].

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's not correct at all, Nick. You are misinterpreting the pie charts. In fact, the extremely small percentage of "Two Directions" witnesses is THE most important part about those pie charts, as I talk about on my "Earwitnesses" webpage.

And as we can see from any of the charts shown on that webpage (even the charts endorsed by some of the conspiracy authors), there was definitely NOT a "substantial number" of witnesses who heard shots coming from BOTH the Depository AND the Grassy Knoll. Almost all of the witnesses said they heard ALL of the shots coming from just ONE location—either the TSBD or the Knoll (not BOTH the Depository AND the Knoll)....

I was recently reading through every single one of the 73 statements made by the TSBD employees in CD706, and I noticed something rather remarkable----

Nearly every person who had an opinion as to the number of shots they heard said they heard exactly THREE shots fired---no more, no less.

And also very interesting, I noted, was that almost every TSBD employee who was standing near the front entrance to the building said they thought ALL of the shots had come from down around the Knoll or the Triple Underpass. And since we KNOW that SOME shots came from that very building they were standing in front of (the Book Depository), it means those "doorway" witnesses were certainly being fooled by the acoustics in Dealey Plaza when it comes to locating the source of (at least) the multiple shots that verifiably were fired from the TSBD's sixth floor.

So, that's interesting, IMO. Several witnesses—almost unanimously—said they thought all shots emanated from further WEST than the Depository (and if you find any "doorway" witness who said shots came from directly above them, let me know; I don't think there were any). Which means, like many other "ALL SHOTS CAME FROM THE KNOLL" witnesses, we know they were not 100% accurate—because some shots DID come from the Depository.

"NICK" SAID:

CE-399 was not found on Connally's stretcher, rather the stretcher NEXT to his. There was also no chain of custody on this bullet. You do know this, I trust?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There's no way that bullet was found on a stretcher OTHER than Governor Connally's. And you surely know that Darrell Tomlinson was flip-flopping on the stretcher topic. He was all over the place—first saying one thing, then another. More on that here.

As for the chain of custody for Bullet CE399, see pages 413-420 of the book I co-authored, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt".

Because only a person in complete "SBT denial" could possibly look at the GIF clips I have assembled on my "Single-Bullet Theory" website (below) and say to themselves, "There's no way Kennedy and Connally are reacting at the same time here. It's not even close." ....

"NICK" SAID:

The problem with the Zapruder film is it contradicts the testimony of all witnesses who heard a rapid, almost overlapping succession of gunshots (which alone is problematic, since the MC [Mannlicher-Carcano] cannot fire this way). The only way there can be a rapid succession of shots AND the Zapruder film be accurate at the same time is if Kennedy was hit in the back with the first shot and the second shot struck Tague, which would have had to have happened just before 313 (maybe around 307 or so).

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The many witnesses who said the last two shots were fired in "rapid succession" (in "bang-bang" fashion) are a bit difficult for an "LNer" like myself to explain. In fact, I can't really explain why so many witnesses said they thought the last two shots occurred practically on top of one another. (And I can't utilize the "echoes" argument when it comes to most of those witnesses, because most of them said they only heard THREE total shots. But if they had really been hearing a combination of actual GUNSHOTS plus some ECHOES, then I would think those witnesses would have said they heard more than just THREE shots.)

But I will add this.....

There are several witnesses who said the shots were "evenly spaced" (that is, NOT bunched together at all). I cite each of those witnesses here.

PATRICK COLLINS SAID:

David,

I have spoken to Mike Majerus about the witness perception of the shots because it has always puzzled me that if a shot has two loud composite elements - sound barrier and muzzle blast, why did not more people say they heard four or six shots - as in an even number?

His take on this is that shot 1 caught people by surprise and that it registered as a firecracker or shot ....."count 1".....then as people were alerted and more focused, they then heard the two elements of the second shot and counted it as two making a total of three...in their minds when in fact it was only two.

I am not convinced, but I think it is possible. I tend to favour an early missed shot because we have the "sparks" and we have the Tague nick.......but Mike Majerus is very persuasive over the JFK Back shot being the first shot in examining witness testimony.

Tina Towner contradicts him though as she said she heard the first shot right "after the turn".....I wonder how much time is "after the turn"......I think Phil Willis also stated he took one of his photos as a result of a shot which also came right after the turn onto Elm.

It is simply not possible to determine the exact sequence of events in respect of these shots. One has to consider the "missed shot" and the rather odd notion that an assassin would hit with shots 1 and 3 and miss the car completely with shot 2. This I believe is compelling that if there was a missed shot it was fired early and missed because it struck a tree branch.

I also think we cannot dismiss out of hand that a missed shot could have been fired after the fatal shot as Charles Brehm seemed to think, but on balance I would personally consider that to be remote - but what do I know...I was not there.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Hi Patrick,

I suppose it's possible that Mike Majerus could be correct regarding his "2 Shots" theory, but I think it is an extremely remote and highly UNlikely possibility.

A "three shots fired" scenario seems to be compelling on all fronts---including the massive number of "3 Shots" earwitnesses, which, as I mentioned in a previous post, includes the nearly unanimous statements supplied mostly in March of 1964 in Commission Document No. 706 by all 73 Book Depository employees (and it might actually BE completely unanimous among those who gave a firm opinion as to the number of shots they heard).

And with exactly three shells littering the Sniper's Nest on the sixth floor, coupled with this pie chart below, it's hard to imagine just TWO shots actually being fired in Dealey Plaza. (But I would certainly never say with 100% certainty that Mike Majerus, author of "Phantom Shot", is positively wrong. Maybe he's right. But I tend to doubt it.)

Another reason I tend to doubt the "2 Shots Were Fired" theory is a pretty big reason too --- John Connally's unwavering testimony and statements about hearing the first shot, which he took to be "a rifle shot", but not being hit by that bullet, and then Connally being hit by Shot #2 (the SBT bullet, of course), and then the Texas Governor saying he was definitely NOT struck by bullet #3 (the head shot that killed President Kennedy).

John Connally's testimony concerning the shooting sequence and timing of the shots would certainly NOT favor Mr. Majerus' theory of there being only two shots fired overall.

"MOGUL CAST" SAID:

David,

That is quite interesting [referring to these remarks made earlier by DVP]. It certainly adds weight to the take of all shots from the TSBD and none to from the Knoll.

I would want to be overly confident of the source being correct as to what was accurately recorded of the interviews and that the recording of the interviews can be given a high weight as to reliability of being correct.

I say this because this is the first I've heard of this information and I think I should have. One reason for not hearing this is I just haven't seen enough of any of this to have come across it. Another reason could be this source has been discredited.

The reason I think I should have heard this information is because of the possible high value both sides would give it. For those who want to show a very good solid example of how witnesses could get it wrong that day about where those shots were fired from, it isn't going to get much better than this example.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

What I would like to see is a re-enactment which places a few people in the doorway/entrance area of the Book Depository and then have somebody fire a Carcano rifle three times out of the sixth-floor window directly above those doorway witnesses. And then we'd ask those witnesses: Where did those shots come from?

I'd be willing to bet that nearly all of them (just like the many real witnesses we find in the statements in CD706) would say they thought the shots came from down around the Triple Underpass.

BEN HOLMES SAID:

If shots had come from the Grassy Knoll, WHERE WOULD PEOPLE NEAR THE TSBD HAVE STATED THAT THEY CAME FROM?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Beats me. Since no shots came from the Knoll, we'll never know.

But that would make for another good "re-enactment".

Have you read all 73 statements in CD706, Ben? Not all of them gave an opinion as to the direction of the shots, but, as I said before, it's virtually unanimous when it comes to the witnesses who were standing in the TSBD front entrance who gave an opinion as to the location of the gunman --- those witnesses thought (incorrectly, of course) that ALL of the shots came from the Knoll/Underpass/Railroad Yard area.

Now, Ben, how would you evaluate and analyze those "Doorway" witnesses? Would you conclude they were correct and that ALL shots really did come from the Knoll/Underpass area?

Or would you use a tiny bit of common sense (and other evidence) and conclude those witnesses were fooled by the Dealey Plaza acoustics and that those three shots* that were heard by those "doorway" witnesses had very likely all originated from right above their heads--from the Sniper's Nest window on the sixth floor of the Depository (which is where we know, via other evidence and eyewitnesses, a gunman was firing a rifle at the President)?

* And I believe I'm also correct in saying that every one of those witnesses who gave an opinion as to the number of shots they heard said they heard precisely THREE shots fired. See Commission Document No. 706 to verify.