I don't know where you get that the characters were "a mess" Character development was pretty much on target for a 25 episode series. Sure there were plenty of characters that were introduced and did not have a lot of extra attention. We call these supporting characters. They are not intended to be fully fleshed out because they are there to move the story along and not much else. The two characters the story is mainly about are very well developed.

I hate to pull the same old "Gary Stue" card again but that's what I believe Kirito is; he is this holy martyr who is shown to save girls left, has hints of depression, angst, and apparently can defeat the admins of games with sheer willpower. Kirito has little depth as a character because of the plot; too many things falls into his favor just so the story can advance.

Asuna who is stated to be a strong, independent female started out as a good character but as the story went on, her character degraded from that to a damsel in distress. She is hinted to be one of the strongest players in the game yet needs to cower behind Kirito when her guard, Kuradeel. is after her. Despite being hinted to be one of the strongest players, the anime doesn't do anything to show that -- sure, she beats up a fish, some low level thugs, but that's about all she did. Oh, and she became a damsel in distress for all of ALO.

As for the supporting characters, they have little to no actual roles outside their introduction episode except for Klein but even then he's not all too prominent. They essentially become background characters.

*sigh* One day you may actually wake up to see what an actual 'Gary Stu' is. And again I guess he shouldn't save anyone, shouldn't be depressed in a world where people die (and people have that he was close to), and the mangaka's world should bow to your idea of what is 'correct' or not. And I guess women should hate men who help them and ask nothing in return? And again I point out the first clan he joined dying as a deflation to 'everything being in his favor'. Spike Spiegel from Cowboy Bebop anime royalty and a highly regarded character but guess what "he is this holy martyr who is shown to save girls left, has hints of depression, angst, and apparently can defeat the admins of games with sheer willpower" could fit him if replace the last with 'takes down an entire syndicate on his own with only ton of weapons and adrenaline'. And Spike is considered by none that I know of as a 'Gary Stu' but yet Kirito is? I call b.s. and overly critical.

Yes, lets have Asuna be captured and pull out a sword from nowhere cause thats not breaking the realism at all She was seen fighting side by side with Kirito on multiple occasions throughout Aincrad arc and again she was captured in ALO arc with all items gone (and presumably most skills if not all locked by an admin.)

Supporting characters are supposed to be background characters and not a linchpin of a series. They move the story along and if lucky get a little expanded story.

*sigh* One day you may actually wake up to see what an actual 'Gary Stu' is. And again I guess he shouldn't save anyone, shouldn't be depressed in a world where people die (and people have that he was close to), and the mangaka's world should bow to your idea of what is 'correct' or not.

Educate me, then. Tell me what is a Gary Stue; apparently you conclude that I'm using the term wrong.

Bold part: wat?

And I guess women should hate men who help them and ask nothing in return? And again I point out the first clan he joined dying as a deflation to 'everything being in his favor'. Spike Spiegel from Cowboy Bebop anime royalty and a highly regarded character but guess what "he is this holy martyr who is shown to save girls left, has hints of depression, angst, and apparently can defeat the admins of games with sheer willpower" could fit him if replace the last with 'takes down an entire syndicate on his own with only ton of weapons and adrenaline'. And Spike is considered by none that I know of as a 'Gary Stu' but yet Kirito is? I call b.s. and overly critical.

Bold part: wat?

I haven't watched Cowboy Bebop so I cannot comment on Spike's character.

Yes, lets have Asuna be captured and pull out a sword from nowhere cause thats not breaking the realism at all She was seen fighting side by side with Kirito on multiple occasions throughout Aincrad arc and again she was captured in ALO arc with all items gone (and presumably most skills if not all locked by an admin.)

I said that Asuna was presented as a strong character -- will wise and strength wise in SAO; in ALO, she just whimpers when the antagonist sexually harasses while she cries for Kirito to help her. Isn't that a degradation of character? She lacks any will to push away the antagonist or attempt to shown signs of resistance to his harassment. Please point out the occasions that Asuna fights alongside Kirito in SAO; I only remember the second episode and when they go training together and discover the 74th (75th?) floor boss in the process. What about those times?

Supporting characters are supposed to be background characters and not a linchpin of a series. They move the story along and if lucky get a little expanded story.

Typo on my part; I meant to say that they become background art. They add little or nothing to the main story.

Well I enjoyed the anime yeah there where some annoying moments but I still enjoyed watching, It was nice of everyone to give there opinion of a review on this anime but I thought it was a bit over doing it with all negativity, It's good to give your honest opinion but stop and think what your typing and think how it makes other fans feels, how would you feel if someone was bad mouthing one of your favorite anime.
Me I'm happy we get given such a wonderful thing as anime and manga I enjoy it just for being what it is If I didn't enjoy it then I'll come back to it in the future and see if my opinion after watching it again is the same, Be happy with how much work people put into shows for your entertainment.

*sigh* One day you may actually wake up to see what an actual 'Gary Stu' is. And again I guess he shouldn't save anyone, shouldn't be depressed in a world where people die (and people have that he was close to), and the mangaka's world should bow to your idea of what is 'correct' or not.

Educate me, then. Tell me what is a Gary Stue; apparently you conclude that I'm using the term wrong.
Bold part: wat?

What? This confuses me.
If asking my opinion on Gary Stu: a term critics came up with characters that they deem 'too perfect' but are really just a type of 'hero' archetype.

And I guess women should hate men who help them and ask nothing in return? And again I point out the first clan he joined dying as a deflation to 'everything being in his favor'. Spike Spiegel from Cowboy Bebop anime royalty and a highly regarded character but guess what "he is this holy martyr who is shown to save girls left, has hints of depression, angst, and apparently can defeat the admins of games with sheer willpower" could fit him if replace the last with 'takes down an entire syndicate on his own with only ton of weapons and adrenaline'. And Spike is considered by none that I know of as a 'Gary Stu' but yet Kirito is? I call b.s. and overly critical.

Bold part: wat?

Again no clue what this means

You mentioned all the females falling for Kirito. My response is: should they hate him for it? All logic says no and all my experience in mmo proves opposite of it as well.

I haven't watched Cowboy Bebop so I cannot comment on Spike's character.

And you think you have the right to say what is a good anime or not when you haven't even seen a well respected anime like Cowboy Bebop? Yet another reason critics should shut up and go back to their holes when they don't know what they're talking about.

Yes, lets have Asuna be captured and pull out a sword from nowhere cause thats not breaking the realism at all She was seen fighting side by side with Kirito on multiple occasions throughout Aincrad arc and again she was captured in ALO arc with all items gone (and presumably most skills if not all locked by an admin.)

I said that Asuna was presented as a strong character -- will wise and strength wise in SAO; in ALO, she just whimpers when the antagonist sexually harasses while she cries for Kirito to help her. Isn't that a degradation of character? She lacks any will to push away the antagonist or attempt to shown signs of resistance to his harassment. Please point out the occasions that Asuna fights alongside Kirito in SAO; I only remember the second episode and when they go training together and discover the 74th (75th?) floor boss in the process. What about those times?

Again she's being held by a GM you know the person that controls the system and could theoretically lock her skills Did you not pay any attention what so ever? She constantly pulled away from him whenever he tried to get near her. Her first appearance, the fight with the devil wannabe, the fight with the reaper-pede. All episodes having her fight alongside Kirito.

Supporting characters are supposed to be background characters and not a linchpin of a series. They move the story along and if lucky get a little expanded story.

Typo on my part; I meant to say that they become background art. They add little or nothing to the main story.

What? This confuses me.
If asking my opinion on Gary Stu: a term critics came up with characters that they deem 'too perfect' but are really just a type of 'hero' archetype.

Except that's not what a Gary Stue (Mary Sue) is. To the simplest form, they're a catalyst for the author [and viewer to an extent] to insert him/herself in the character's shoes.

You mentioned all the females falling for Kirito. My response is: should they hate him for it? All logic says no and all my experience in mmo proves opposite of it as well.

I don't understand where you're going with this; and the females falling for Kirito only adds onto the wish-fulfillment aspect of the show.

And you think you have the right to say what is a good anime or not when you haven't even seen a well respected anime like Cowboy Bebop? Yet another reason critics should shut up and go back to their holes when they don't know what they're talking about.

Swell argument, mate, because I haven't watched X series I cannot talk Y series! Wow, flawless thinking right there! This here is a freaking cop out argument to prevent me from stating my opinion; why should I be required to watch Cowboy Bebop to add feedback to a show? I guess by that logic, people must watch Evangelion before they can criticize anything, too! People must also play Minesweeper before they can criticize any online game! You do realize I am talking strictly about SAO here and not Bebop, right?

Again she's being held by a GM you know the person that controls the system and could theoretically lock her skills Did you not pay any attention what so ever? She constantly pulled away from him whenever he tried to get near her. Her first appearance, the fight with the devil wannabe, the fight with the reaper-pede. All episodes having her fight alongside Kirito.

She didn't pull away from him; she sat there and took the harassment and whimpered "Kirito-kun, help me." I'll reiterate: she went from a strong willed character into a maiden who must need her knight in shining armor to rescue her before she can do anything for herself. And what of her fighting alongside Kirito? What does that imply? You're merely listing examples and not elaborating on how or what they add to the character. If anything, it seems like it enforces my point that she went from a strong female into this subservient female who must have her knight with her so she can be strong.

And thats their job they do their part and go away nothing new

That just raises how useless they are to the show and further supports how they add little or nothing at all.

What? This confuses me.
If asking my opinion on Gary Stu: a term critics came up with characters that they deem 'too perfect' but are really just a type of 'hero' archetype.

Except that's not what a Gary Stue (Mary Sue) is. To the simplest form, they're a catalyst for the author [and viewer to an extent] to insert him/herself in the character's shoes.

Again this fits every single male MC since the dawn of anime And please do explain how you would deviate from this and still make a decent hero? Oh wait you just get to criticize and not actually try to write anything

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

You mentioned all the females falling for Kirito. My response is: should they hate him for it? All logic says no and all my experience in mmo proves opposite of it as well.

I don't understand where you're going with this; and the females falling for Kirito only adds onto the wish-fulfillment aspect of the show.

Its not wish fulfillment, its a realistic response

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

And you think you have the right to say what is a good anime or not when you haven't even seen a well respected anime like Cowboy Bebop? Yet another reason critics should shut up and go back to their holes when they don't know what they're talking about.

Swell argument, mate, because I haven't watched X series I cannot talk Y series! Wow, flawless thinking right there! This here is a freaking cop out argument to prevent me from stating my opinion; why should I be required to watch Cowboy Bebop to add feedback to a show? I guess by that logic, people must watch Evangelion before they can criticize anything, too! People must also play Minesweeper before they can criticize any online game! You do realize I am talking strictly about SAO here and not Bebop, right?

You put yourself on a pedestal that allows you to criticize and yet you don't even know of what most people consider to be a great anime. Your opinion isn't golden and from experience. No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion but I will use my voice to fight against the b.s. I see from critics (of every genre not just SAO) like yourself. People should play an mmo or else not speak about them, people should listen to a song before speaking about it, people should actually try writing a story before speaking about how small details tear a story apart, etc.

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

Again she's being held by a GM you know the person that controls the system and could theoretically lock her skills Did you not pay any attention what so ever? She constantly pulled away from him whenever he tried to get near her. Her first appearance, the fight with the devil wannabe, the fight with the reaper-pede. All episodes having her fight alongside Kirito.

She didn't pull away from him; she sat there and took the harassment and whimpered "Kirito-kun, help me." I'll reiterate: she went from a strong willed character into a maiden who must need her knight in shining armor to rescue her before she can do anything for herself. And what of her fighting alongside Kirito? What does that imply? You're merely listing examples and not elaborating on how or what they add to the character. If anything, it seems like it enforces my point that she went from a strong female into this subservient female who must have her knight with her so she can be strong.

You need to re-watch the episode cause she did pull away from him on multiple occasions. Again she had all her equips and skills locked by a GM and yet you expect her to somehow be warrior queen? Someone has unworldly expectations It implies literally fighting by his side and keeping pace. I gave you examples if you want to know the rest do what the rest of us do and look it up . We never got an extended look at her post-escape so you have no clue what she has become.

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

And thats their job they do their part and go away nothing new

That just raises how useless they are to the show and further supports how they add little or nothing at all.

*sigh* They are there to move the story along and/or to give depth and weight to the situation the MC's are in. Again try writing a story and not having support characters and see how far you get.

Again this fits every single male MC since the dawn of anime And please do explain how you would deviate from this and still make a decent hero? Oh wait you just get to criticize and not actually try to write anything

Way to generalize all anime main characters; one simple way to fix many of SAO's problems is to follow the format of "show, don't tell." Kirito is not a good character because practically everything he does is being the best in that; at the end of the day he defeats all the monsters, wins the hearts of the maidens he rescued, and saves the day while throwing gaming terminology at our face. I applaud the Sachi arc for showing some of his failure but in the long term, it didn't even matter.

Its not wish fulfillment, its a realistic response

Saving a girl automatically makes them fall for me? I guess I better go and build myself a harem by saving all maidens in danger.

You put yourself on a pedestal that allows you to criticize and yet you don't even know of what most people consider to be a great anime. Your opinion isn't golden and from experience. No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion but I will use my voice to fight against the b.s. I see from critics (of every genre not just SAO) like yourself. People should play an mmo or else not speak about them, people should listen to a song before speaking about it, people should actually try writing a story before speaking about how small details tear a story apart, etc.

How have I put myself on a pedestal? Wow, way to fucking put words in my mouth; I know that Cowboy Bebop is highly regarded but what of it? That doesn't fucking make SAO a great anime. You're relying too much on cop out arguments in order to try and shut me down; you see yourself in a righteous crusade against those who post any negative feedback about SAO. Following your cop out argument logic, perhaps you should see SAO through my eyes before you criticize my thoughts of it; see how flaw your logic is? And I never mentioned that my opinion is the correct one, just that it is mine and it is what I think of the show. You claim that people flaunt their opinions as facts but the way things are going, it seems that you are one of those people, too.

You need to re-watch the episode cause she did pull away from him on multiple occasions. Again she had all her equips and skills locked by a GM and yet you expect her to somehow be warrior queen? Someone has unworldly expectations It implies literally fighting by his side and keeping pace. I gave you examples if you want to know the rest do what the rest of us do and look it up . We never got an extended look at her post-escape so you have no clue what she has become.

Again, you're putting damn words into my mouth; I said she should show signs of resistance -- note how I didn't mention specifications or dictate the actions to be taken; I merely said she should show signs of resistance which could amount to what you suggested or even physically pushing Sugou away. If anyone has unworldly expectations here, it is you -- you expect people who think lowly of SAO to crawl back into their holes and to use your own words against you: "I will use my own voice to fight against the b.s. I see like yourself."

*sigh* They are there to move the story along and/or to give depth and weight to the situation the MC's are in. Again try writing a story and not having support characters and see how far you get.

There's a fine line between supporting characters who add to the show, characters who don't, and characters who detract from the show. The supporting cast are largely irrelevant to the damn story.

Seeing the way you throw ad hominems around makes me want to not bother with debating anymore; I think I'll just go grab some alcohol and see what happens from hereon out.

Again this fits every single male MC since the dawn of anime And please do explain how you would deviate from this and still make a decent hero? Oh wait you just get to criticize and not actually try to write anything

Way to generalize all anime main characters; one simple way to fix many of SAO's problems is to follow the format of "show, don't tell." Kirito is not a good character because practically everything he does is being the best in that; at the end of the day he defeats all the monsters, wins the hearts of the maidens he rescued, and saves the day while throwing gaming terminology at our face. I applaud the Sachi arc for showing some of his failure but in the long term, it didn't even matter.

I never said it was a bad thing thats your interpretation of it. I understand there's only so many 'hero-types' out there. Yeah cause it'd be an amazing anime if the MC went against a monster and died in first episode. Add to this Kirito didn't just wake up one day and say I'm the best, then poof status changed. He did what every gamer does and ground to higher levels with his prior knowledge of the beta testing. *sigh* again for like the 3rd or 4th time: what response should the 'maidens' give? Should they run him out of town cause he's a nice guy? Please, this makes no sense what so ever. Yeah dear god don't let a character try to tell anything about his -verse Amazing how easily you dismiss a group of close friends deaths and how you ignore that its one of the things that reinforced Kirito's loner philosophy

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

Its not wish fulfillment, its a realistic response

Saving a girl automatically makes them fall for me? I guess I better go and build myself a harem by saving all maidens in danger.

If I help a girl out irl you know what I get looked at in a positive light (what a shocking revelation /sarcasm). Do it enough and she may even like me *shock*

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

You put yourself on a pedestal that allows you to criticize and yet you don't even know of what most people consider to be a great anime. Your opinion isn't golden and from experience. No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion but I will use my voice to fight against the b.s. I see from critics (of every genre not just SAO) like yourself. People should play an mmo or else not speak about them, people should listen to a song before speaking about it, people should actually try writing a story before speaking about how small details tear a story apart, etc.

How have I put myself on a pedestal? Wow, way to fucking put words in my mouth; I know that Cowboy Bebop is highly regarded but what of it? That doesn't fucking make SAO a great anime. You're relying too much on cop out arguments in order to try and shut me down; you see yourself in a righteous crusade against those who post any negative feedback about SAO. Following your cop out argument logic, perhaps you should see SAO through my eyes before you criticize my thoughts of it; see how flaw your logic is? And I never mentioned that my opinion is the correct one, just that it is mine and it is what I think of the show. You claim that people flaunt their opinions as facts but the way things are going, it seems that you are one of those people, too.

By acting like your opinion trumps all others you put yourself on a pedestal. By trying to critique something you put yourself on a pedestal. How would you know a great anime if you don't even know of any? SAO isn't a 'great' anime its a 'very good' at best and a 'good' at worst. Righteous...sorry gotta catch my breath on that one... I'm just preventing a good anime from getting b.s.'d to death by critics who nitpick every detail they can to justify hating an anime. Two things: 1) At best I'm a fact checker and at worst I'm a counterbalance but I'll admit that some of what I say is opinion and not fact 2) my words don't harm anyone while your (and all the other critics) words do harm various mediums as some people actually listen to you

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

You need to re-watch the episode cause she did pull away from him on multiple occasions. Again she had all her equips and skills locked by a GM and yet you expect her to somehow be warrior queen? Someone has unworldly expectations It implies literally fighting by his side and keeping pace. I gave you examples if you want to know the rest do what the rest of us do and look it up . We never got an extended look at her post-escape so you have no clue what she has become.

Again, you're putting damn words into my mouth; I said she should show signs of resistance -- note how I didn't mention specifications or dictate the actions to be taken; I merely said she should show signs of resistance which could amount to what you suggested or even physically pushing Sugou away. If anyone has unworldly expectations here, it is you -- you expect people who think lowly of SAO to crawl back into their holes and to use your own words against you: "I will use my own voice to fight against the b.s. I see like yourself."

And again she did show signs of resistance at least 2 times and you're the one thinking that she just somehow mystically break free so Kirito doesn't have to rescue her cause thats totally realistic. And again you're wrong my aim isn't at SAO critics, its at ALL critics as they serve no purpose what so ever except destructive one. Good luck with that as your the ones that spew opinions and b.s. around

Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide

*sigh* They are there to move the story along and/or to give depth and weight to the situation the MC's are in. Again try writing a story and not having support characters and see how far you get.

There's a fine line between supporting characters who add to the show, characters who don't, and characters who detract from the show. The supporting cast are largely irrelevant to the damn story.

Seeing the way you throw ad hominems around makes me want to not bother with debating anymore; I think I'll just go grab some alcohol and see what happens from hereon out.

Supporting characters aren't supposed to add to a show, they move the story along. They are supposed to do their purpose and then become irrelevant as they are support not main . Good luck with that I'll stick with coffee and plenty of anime as I don't intentionally try to tear apart every one I start to watch

Yeah, guess the mile long posts kinda killed that but you do what you can with what you're handed. tbh the whole point of the thread is idiotic considering its by 1 guy that was pissed (butt-hurt) cause the anime didn't go down the path he wanted it to go down.