MA values, what's that? To me it's "better to be quiet and have people wonder if you're a dumbass than to open your mouth and confirm that you are a dumbass". Those that have ethics and morality don't talk about it, they live it. Those that talk about it may want it, but don't have the courage or intestinal fortitude to do it.

I am courteous to just about everyone, until they show me that they are an ass. I try to be nice, since my kids are watching. I also dont want my kids to think that you should just sit back and let someone walk all over you.
If someone says some stupid ****, then you call them on it. Speak your mind, and dont regret it. Others feel that it is ok to say what they want, why cant I do the same?

I teach them to say yes sir no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am, the boy I teach to hold open doors for ladies and get up and let a lady sit down.

I also teach him how to defend himself.

Confidence in your ability to defend yourself, verbally and physically , leads to courtesy. It means that you have no reason to be an asshat, you have nothing to prove.

Courtesy is knowing that the same rules apply to you as they do another person. You have the right to speak your mind, and so do they.

I just hate it when People call me a Martial Artist. **** that. I notice that they usually do it when their argument has about a jillion holes punched in it, the suddenly its "Well as a MA I would think you would understand."

I tend to disagree. I think values in the martial arts are important. I think its what seperates martial artists from thugs. Here are the tenats of my first school, which I have pretty much tried to live by.

I tend to disagree. I think values in the martial arts are important. I think its what seperates martial artists from thugs. Here are the tenats of my first school, which I have pretty much tried to live by.

I don't disagree with you; however, the holier than thou self righteous attitude of many who hide push the ideals can be hypocritical at times, in addition there tends to be NO grey area when dealing with some people who take the tenets (MAV I GOT IT RIGHT, beer for me) and stick so hard to them without using a shred of critical thinking or common sense. Another thing I find highly suspect is that there is always loyalty to country, schools, instructors, etc . . . I have yet to see a set of values that says loyalty to self. Where or when does a person get to do what is best for themselves in the value system?

I agree with TEA and Oldman. I try to live by my honour, but if someone fucks with me that goes out of the window. As martial artists we hold a special position in that we can defend ourselves and protect others with our skills (And heightened confidence/martial spirit) if need be. How we use those abilities in our daily life is the true test of who we really are. Without these values martial arts lack art and culture, reducing them to unrefined street brawling. There is a Chinese character "Xia2" that explains it well, but my Chinese programme is being @funky@ today.

I also agree that many TKDists are hypocrites. When I studied TKD everyone spouted that BS but during sparring would try to cheat to win, show off during class in the most egotistical way, and BBs making jokes about WBs (Whose actual skill levels were not much lower). After I became a 2 dan and wanted to continue to learn more I was more or less ignored. This, needless to say, pissed me off so I went to a Combat Hapkido place nearby and got schooled by the teacher, who was also busy with MMA. This pissed me off even more - the realisation that everything that I had practised so hard to learn was complete BS. Where were their values when an honest student worked hard, while masses of no-name, soulless yellow belts threw one bad punch after another with ki-haps lacking any aggressiveness whatsoever? And where were their values when they catered to the latter?

So I will say it again, if you believe in yourself, your opinion so much. Come work out with me.I'm not talking about beating you down, which I think would be quiet easy to do. i'm giving you a chance to put some real **** behind your bullshit words. Of course you won't, can't, etc - because you are all about the talking. Everyone can see this, and you just think you look so pretty with all the bullshit hanging on you, lol.

And to think you are raising 4 children up to be like this, is really a scarey thought. I think you are the problem with parents today. How does that sit with you? It is very clear now that you are the problem with parenting today. It is very clear that your children should be taken away from you and raised with good manners. It is clear that you have children, so you can raise an army of morons. It is time that they get some real life training and not the lies you have been telling them. I think we can institute a Pressure Testing for parents. Successful parents will inteview people like you, find you lacking, and then you don't get to be a parent. We need to get back to what parenting really was about. Do you have 4 kids so you can get more welfare money?

HERE is a prime example of the bullshit tenets that TKD schools preach. I talked about HIM and HIS School, and he attacks my children. He is a 30 year practitioner and a TEACHER of TKD.

MA values, what's that? To me it's "better to be quiet and have people wonder if you're a dumbass than to open your mouth and confirm that you are a dumbass". Those that have ethics and morality don't talk about it, they live it. Those that talk about it may want it, but don't have the courage or intestinal fortitude to do it.

My two cents (Canadian too)

Agree much.

My school uses the 5 WTF tenets, with the much more meaningful "respect" in place of the silly "courtesy." I think they're some pretty good ideas to live by.

The tenets are an excellent thing to live by, and I try to as well as I can. I probably fall short more than I would like to admit. What is so offensive, is the type of person who only parades them out as a negotiation tool or a sympathy card.

If you are going to live by them, fine.

If you want to be a self absorbed asshat, fine.

If you want to fleece the patrons at your McDojo, great

But decide who you are and what you stand for, and own it.

Embrace it.

Dont live the life of the Ultimate Fucktard, and when you get cornered, run and hide behind the tenets that you only know because they are on an inspirational poster on the wall.

The people who live by these Ideals don't need to tell everyone, it shows.

The ones who tell you all about the tenets that they run their life and McDojo by,

Are feeding you a sales pitch, or trying to get their ass off the Bar-B-Q.

Just my 2 cts.

If you can't laugh at yourself,Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

Weird at my Dojo we have no tenets. We have been told by master that we should use our training in a self defense capacity and thats it. None of the other things. As far as fleecing I've been charged the same 45 dollars for as long I can remember. Testing fees are 20 bucks and that includes the belt. No contract month to month. Sensai says if the school is good people will keep coming back on their own.