Both gold and silver are having a rough day to say the least. After a forced slide in the gold complex pushed the metal to sub $1,380, fueled in part by recurring rumors of a large macro/commodity fund taking profits ahead of the year end, numerous stops were triggered, bringing it to nearly $1,370, almost $50 below the all time high reached, oh, yesterday. And since traders are now desperate for volatility, which has disappeared from stocks, the daytrading crowd has taken over both the precious metals space... and the bond market. That said, momentum chasers entering the gold and bond market may have the makings of the greatest comedy witnessed in markets in the past several years.

Monday morning, after watching a cartoon on YouTube and reading some comments on a blog, I bought a bunch of silver. After paying retail value, plus juice, I own these damn silver bars at $32/oz. I didn't think much of it because a trillion dollar bank on Wall Street was (supposedly) going to implode very soon, and the price of silver was going to hit $75/oz or more. This was a fact, and the only variable was whether or not the world was going to end.

Tuesday, I went and bought a Jaguar, based on this inside information that I had and the enormous profits that I mentally booked for myself.

48 hours later, I still haven't received the bars, and my dealer said he'd buy them back from me at the wholesale value of $27/oz. He said the rumor of JPM going bust turned out to be just a bunch of mania, driven primarily by silver/gold dealers trying to dump inventory at record high prices to a record numbers of idiots.

Yes, I did. I wish I hadn't. And I think it's more like 30 year highs.

There was only one poster on this forum this past weekend that advised on selling silver/gold on Monday. He said that while fundamentals are certainly strong, the current price movement was indicative of pure mania, rumor and speculation by dealers trying to unload inventory at record high prices.

That person got junked over 40 times and ridiculed by EVERYONE. So I assumed EVERYONE was right.

I bought. Not only did I buy, I used my head as collateral and now I'm getting calls from a neurosurgeon representing Mr. Lucifer. Anyone know who Mr. Lucifer is?

Don't be such a putz. Take delivery of your bars and wait. You will do very well. The shyster here is your dealer, trying to panic you so he can make money on bars he doesn't even have. Tell him you want delivery and see what happens.

The Jaguar salesperson told me the $10,000 addendum to the MSRP was due to the rarity of the car, and that I probably could sell the Jaguar on Craigslist for $20,000 over MSRP, netting me an instant profit of nothing since the taxes on the purchase would eat almost all of it. But at least I (supposedly) wouldn't lose money.

Well, that was bullshit. I went to the other Jaguar dealer this afternoon and tried to sell it to them, but they offered me $20,000 less than MSRP, and the vehicle is only 26 hours old with 14 miles on it.

I'm such a fucking sucker! First I take the advice of all you idiots and buy silver at 30 year highs, because everyone here told me it was going to $75/oz and that the failure of JPM was imminent. Then I buy this Jaguar with the imaginary profits and loose another $20,000.

For me to break even out of my silver trade that I made on Monday, silver would have to reach $34/oz., because I only get wholesale when I sell it back to the dealer. At today's prices that puts me $7/oz underwater!

You fuckers! BOB SAGET!!

I don't understand why the Jaguar dealer lied to me, and I don't understand why the silver/gold dealer lied. Are they just trying to make money off me? That's ridiculous! Fuck Obama!

What I really mean to say is: please, please, please do not save my statements from this thread and use them against me when gold/silver go back up. My ego is far too inflated and fragile to handle ever being told I'm wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm never wrong. Never wrong, and markets do not change, got it? All markets move linearly. Gold and silver down today; gold and silver down forever. Capice?

Not equity in gold. When Volker began to raise rates, gold followed lock step. Gold peaked when interest rates did. Raising interest rates shows a loss of faith in policy; a loss of faith in policy is a boon for real assets, ie gold.

It bottomed at 28.01 right about where a channel's setting up, but I dunno if I've got enough extrinisic left before it gets to the other side of the channel again. Maybe lighten up a little if there's enough of a bounce today. See what comes when it gets to the MA's? Do those still work, or is TA completely flown the coop?

Yes, there was a 'masquerading bottom' yesterday. Ah, the trials and tribulations of reading charts, just when ya think ya have the answers, they change all the dam questions on us..... but uh... looking at the hourly in the moment on SLV, we're now at the 200ma with a DOJI and and HAMMER following... could be time to back up the truck.

You see, I have long known that the PM's would retain their value and the goal of the EE is to destroy the USA through the systemic flaw of its monetary system. My concern is not for the metals, but rather what the neighborhood will look like when that and food and ammo are the last remnants of fungible goods.

I started accumulating Physical Gold in March 08 at $1000, it went down to $700 by October. My attempts to finess my additional purchases were not great and for ages (until Apr 09 in fact) my average price was offside. I did not loose ANY sleep!

Since that first purchase in 08 I have exitted the equity market completely and continued to buy gold every eight weeks. In October 09 I started to acquire Silver every 8 weeks. So once a month I make a cash transaction with a reputable bullion dealer, Gold and Silver on alternate months.

I no longer put any money into a pension, mutual fund, money market fund or any other `product`

Totally. Don't care about the day to day volatility. Congress and President have demonstrated that they will never pay back the debt, and BB will PRINT, PRINT, PRINT. The $ is going to zero, don't know when and how, but it will get there...

I don't see what that's got to do with it. China can dump a couple of thousand Contracts on the Comex in 30 seconds and knock $10 off the price just before the PM fix then buy 50 tonnes of physical at the Fix price. Why wouldn't they do that?

Do you have an alternative explanation for the recurring price weakness at the AM and PM fixes?

The great " gold " market is a paper ponzi like the rest. A trade/bet.

The Impact of Derivatives on the Gold Market

..."In the long run, yes these derivative positions will have to come to maturity or will be closed out but in the short and medium term they created a bubble of accelerated supply to market. This badly distorted the annual supply/demand balance and the short to medium term turned out to last for more than a painful decade, during which the gold price came under persistent pressure.".....

...."Note the marked increase in output from NorthAmerica and Australia during the 1980s. All this increased production, as itrolled off the drawing board and into d’ore trucks, required project financing.At that stage, US Dollar interest rates were comparatively high. Thedifferential between the cost of borrowing dollars and borrowing gold waswide enough to convince the miners of the wisdom of the gold loan – theoriginal prototype derivative product. The miners borrowed gold from a bullionbank, sold it to raise capital with the intention of paying it back through futureproduction from the developed mine. Once financed through metal borrowing,this new output was subject to price risk, which the miner elected to managedthrough increasingly sophisticated bullion base derivatives. This created avery ready market for a whole range of derivative products for basic forwardsthrough to vanilla and then exotic options and any combination of theseproducts that one might care to imagine."......

..."Back in 1994, after following what I called the derivative revolution throughoutthe 1980s, I commented on this very issue. …”what maybenefit an individual mining company does not necessarily augur well for themarket as a whole…. On occasions, producer hedging will not only influencethe price, but may even act as a major price determinant.”....

I still don't see your point. The Chinese (Or other physical buyers of size) could be using the paper market you describe so accurately to lower the price for their physical purchases which generally take place at the agreed London Fix price.

They are not trading. They are not flipping contracts. They are loading up Airplanes with gold and shipping it to a vault from which it may never emerge in our lifetime. I contend that this is behind the London Fix price movements. The wider picture of paper gold and derivative shenanigans isn't really relevant to a sovereign state looking for permanent accumulation of physical gold reserves.

buy physical, buy shares of good miners, if u r great at technicals maybe dabble in options...but each of these need different skill sets and time frames.

great miners out there just have to look (i am in AUNFF, AUY, BCEKF, BRD, FVITF, GPRLF, JAG, PAL, SWC, SLW, and SNDXF - anyone else out there found other good miners?). they will rise with physical but GLD/GDXJ/GDX/SLV will collapse if the system collapses.

Yes. We broke both levels of support (1st line of support was at $1395, second was at $1385). This is a buying opportunity. I would not be surprised if we end the day back around $1400. I will be surprised if it trades any lower than $1372.

Ah yes, the persistent "rumors" that seem to move markets. A wise old sage 25 years ago told me that markets don't move, they are moved.

You'd think all Wall Street was is a bunch of gossiping (and desperate) housewives discussing who's screwing whom and what scandal will break next. Maybe there's some truth to that idea. I do agree that volatility is profitable, especially for those who induce it or who can trade in milliseconds.

yeah, you know i was starting to fool myself into believing i could tap into the criminal mind of the EE and position myself accordingly - but i see even a lowly sinner like me has a long, long way to go to catch up.

Exactly. Moves like this (massive selling/manipulation) usually results in a huge move up soon after. This is the main reason the US/UK stopped selling gold on the open market in the '60s. It was creating price volatility. Now since the cat is out of the bag, well, they have no choice but to continue the manipulation.

Perth couple Brian and Eileen Bowden are among thousands reaping the benefits of the states robust economy as they prepare to extract a $100,000 profit on their home in just six weeks.The people who we bought this house from made $100,000 off us, so its a non-stop cycle Mr Bowden said.

"West shows way but east trembles" by Anthony Klan and Alana Buckley-Carr, The Australian.

This is a perfect example of the (Australian) mainstream media fanning the flames of the bubble rather than asking simple questions such as "Why is a $100,000 "profit" on a home in six weeks considered part of a robust economy".

Except for those who bought physical. Premiums for physical silver are blowing up. I've seen 100oz bars with a $2/oz premium on them! These are just regular bars that normally carry a premium of 30-70 cents.

But yeah, you keep selling. It makes it a lot easier for smart people to participate in the trade of the millennium.

Correct. But silver has the added benefit of being an out of favor form of money (this suppresses price) that was once stockpiled just like gold (meaning there used to be a huge supply, and there remains deep seated understanding that silver is less valuable than gold, even though it has a higher demand and a smaller supply), but industrial uses have destroyed that stockpile(meaning lots of industries are about to hit a wall, and most of them don't see it coming).

Hence, the trade of the millennium. Not the day trade of the millennium. You trade dollars for silver now, you wait for the full supply problem to come into the spotlight, and for everyone to go absolutely nuts over silver, then you trade your silver for something else (not paper). I'm personally looking at gold, as that will fare the best in the currency crisis that will follow hard on the heels of the silver crisis.

I cannot come back to the USA for another 10 days or so, and I would REALLY like to buy any physical left then, especially at a lower price.

So let´s see a little constructive action here for us holders of PMs as wealth preserver and insurance. Get JonNadler (and Robot, JW, TWORIVERS, etc.) back in here so I can get my physical at a discount!

Perhaps. I have many friends trading the markets and only a few are up. To your point those few are really up big. For most people and gold and silver in particular, it is a tough trade. We have a 1-trillion pound gorilla stuck in silver alone and they are still dangerous. They still have a lot of control.

right. Because in 2010 we are in a 'deflationary spiral', unless of course price increases in everything you need day-to-day, but have been excluded from inflation calculations since 1980, indicate something else, like 'stagflation'. Hey, wasn't that term liberally applied to the disco era?

How far do you think rates have to rise before the whole financial system implodes? What will bonds be worth then?

I understand from Blackhawk Ben that unless he spends trillions to keep rates down the world will end. So if rates start going up will he throw in the towel and let the crash happen, or will he print even more demented quantities of new money?

He has to do the Keynesian thing - because in his mind the Keynesians will be the ones to write history and he doesn't want to be known as "the banker who *could* have printed but didn't". I think he's going to go all in.

I hope he is working for JPM! Since I need all the help that Robot (and his alter-ego JonNadler) and fellow PM bears can do for me to bash the prices down to, say, $1200 and $24, I would ask you to keep at it.

Just 10 more days until I get back, thanks guys! To help get you started:

@ Robot-I thought I grew out of this stage of beating people up about 10 years ago, but seriously. You were a tool in high school and got picked on by the cool kids. You are still a tool now and nobody likes you. You don't trade anything, you have no money and you live with your parents. Go troll craigslist, find a new boyfriend, and stay away from the cool kids.

Bart - People r being financially harmed n the midst of what will prove to be one of the most devastating economic cataclysm this country has experienced by virtue of what occurred today n the Gold & Silver fraudulent paper markets. There is no fundamental market specific justification or greater macro-economic explanation PERIOD for the price movements n either metals on this day. Do the citizens of this country have no advocate whomsoever who will protect them from blatant market manipulation perpetrated by JP Morgan & HSBC in there quest to further rob and destroy. How much of the peoples savings need be destroyed by the bankers before someone takes substantive steps to end the pillaging.

From an open of 30.64 to an high off 30.75 was Silvers performance only to be naked shorted to 28.66 by the days end continuing into the access markets. This in what we all know is an environment where "real money" free of bankers ruin should be multiples its current phony paper valuation. Tough talk, obliquely referencing the fraud we all know is occurring is not enough. The savers of this country who believe n the constitutional definition of real money and why it is directly tied to the liberty of the citizenry need unambiguous, firm and pronounced action. Please do what is right....