(05-07-2011, 10:09 PM)unity100 Wrote: in all these considerations one thing to always remember is, whatever is being described below infinity, exists in infinity with its complementary counterpart.

your approaches seem to imply states and situations that were not possible before - like 'vague awareness being required before it forms a functioning body able to perform work' - however ALL these states, exist in infinity. and their counterparts. vague awareness was there before infinity becomes 'aware' in a lower level.

It's also important to be grounded in reality and realize that anything we propose could be completely wrong. After all, what you say is only a certain logic and not fact. Yes, we know that infinity contains everything, but we don't know how this relates to awareness.

No one here can claim to be an authority on the very toughest question there is to answer.

It's very possible that within infinity, while its state is contained as a balanced whole, within it there is chaos. As the finites zip and zoom around forming "connections" with their counterparts, infinity's awareness would start to grow. Eventually, self awareness would form where infinity could focus itself.

Ra seems to support this idea in 13.16

Quote:Ra: I am Ra. Each step recapitulates intelligent infinity in its discovery of awareness. In a planetary environment all begins in what you would call chaos, energy undirected and random in its infinity. Slowly, in your terms of understanding, there forms a focus of self-awareness.

Here it seems to be implied that while infinity is a contained whole in the beginning, within it is chaos. Self-awareness is then something new, formed as the finites within infinity organize its balanced state and a greater sense of possibility becomes known. I actually think this is more logical than what you propose, and it gives a reason as to why infinity comes into being. Because what you propose suggests that there would be no reason for infinity to "move". To satisfy your mental leanings, an individual finite within infinity has a dormant awareness in that it does exist, the information is there, but nothing can be made sense of it until there is organization..so there is unawareness also. It's not until the chaos begins to regularize that an awareness forms.

This is exactly what is happening with infinite intelligence in manifested form. We are gathering moments and increasing awareness. We are reflecting the process of infinity expressing possibility. Who's to say that infinity has to be organized from the beginning? Again, it can still be a balanced state and exist in chaos in the beginning.

I propose that awareness is the result of the organization of chaos within infinity.

This seems to shed light on the deep meaning behind saying that there is only the present moment. As we move from moment to moment, experiencing it, we symbolically represent infinity organizing chaos into a manifested reality to experience each finite. In this way there truly is only the present moment, as we discover what's possible in an infinite number of ways.

Realistically, EVERYTHING we say is correct, is that not the nature of infinite existence? We may not all be SINGULARLY correct, but I think absolutely every word that is spoken contains the truth of itself. Who says the universe began in any one particular way, maybe it started in multiple ways to compensate for the possibly of alternate time-lines? That is, maybe all of our ideas of infinite co-exist and it's really our choice on how to UTILIZE infinity by creating our own personal conceptions of it from which to base our workings? Is there really any difference between our thoughts and imagination? Is not everything we think also rooted in existence and therefore a truth in itself? I would also consider the inner planes here. Note he says "Slowly, in your terms of understanding, there forms a focus of self-awareness." In our terms of understanding, 3D, which means he is putting things in to linear perspective. Ra rarely talks about his own experience, it must always be remembered he is typically directing things in the way of current third dimensional thought.

No, maybe none of us have "authority", but who really does? As far as I'm concerned absolutely nobody has anymore authority than anyone else, authority is just a relationship. So really, every single perception is equally valid. Your visualization is correct, just as mine is, or Monkey's or Confused, or Monicas, these are all just the eye of infinite looking through the One.

(05-08-2011, 08:05 AM)3DMonkey Wrote:

(05-08-2011, 12:28 AM)Azrael Wrote: Of course, the universe is intimately co-dependant. If not for a single atom the whole of the cosmos would not exist.

Yes and no. I agree with what you are saying. Completely. But if a single atom lost existence, the cosmos would readjust to make up for it. You know?

Apparently there truly is only one "permanent" atom, the rest are just holographics reflections of the One, spun in different ways. This is according to Theosophic teachings.

Sure, there are valid points to that and is part of what I have been saying. Here though in this forum, in discussing the Law of One, we come together to discuss our understandings to alleviate distortion....especially in this sub-forum as we try to bridge and criticize our understandings.
But I sympathize with your thoughts and get what you are saying

Ah, distortion denotes two or more in an interaction of confusion, you cannot have distortion in the One. I think this can even apply to agreeing to disagree, although frankly I think agreeance with preference is more fluid. Just IMHO, though.

(04-29-2011, 12:19 PM)LsavedSmeD Wrote: The first known thing in creation is infinity - according to Ra.

The next step is Infinity becoming aware.

This step which is the threshold to the desire of the Infinite One to experience itself is the step which I cannot grasp.

How does something without awareness become aware? What caused this awareness? Is it because of the Infinite possibilities? Is awareness bound to happen eventually in Infinity?

This question is quite puzzling and I'd like to hear some of my brothers/sisters perspectives on such a paradox.

When manifestation began, due to the extreme high vibration of The Infinite Creator, Its presence could not be tolerated upon any planet. Yet the Creator needed to know what it was like to experience "experience" in the Material Universe. The Creator fragmented itself into the Social Memory Complexes, which fragmented into Spirits, which fragmented into Souls, which fragmented into Ego/Personalities.

Ego/Personalties begin in 2nd Density. 1st Density being the Mineral Kingdom, "once a mineral, always a mineral" is the way of that Density.
2nd Density, born with a memory and incarnating in the group soul, spends 1350 years experiencing one species then moves onto the next until all experiences are exhausted in that Density and it is ready to offer itself to 3rd Density, the cycle in which to become self aware.

In 3rd Density, a newly harvested 2nd Density is first born as Human as an Infant Soul. Often they are still born because it is a most frightening and insecure experience to not be part of a group any longer! Over incarnations, it experiences a variety of situations and graduates itself into a Baby Soul. The Baby Soul spends more incarnations gaining more experiences until it graduates into the Young Soul. The Young Soul through many more lives, evolves into a Mature Soul ... then an Old Soul ... then a Transcendental Soul then an Infinite Soul.

Through trial and error, or Karma, the Law of Cause and Effect, the soul progresses. Because it is a fragment of the Infinite Creator, it has intelligence and eventually figures out why things work they way they do. It then becomes so self aware of I am That I am, that it may then offer itself to Harvest into 4th Density. And so on and so on ...

Only Mature and Old Souls are eligible for Harvest into Fourth Density because they are the only soul levels which have achieved self awareness. So you see, experience is answer to your question!

(04-29-2011, 12:19 PM)LsavedSmeD Wrote: The first known thing in creation is infinity - according to Ra.

The next step is Infinity becoming aware.

This step which is the threshold to the desire of the Infinite One to experience itself is the step which I cannot grasp.

How does something without awareness become aware? What caused this awareness? Is it because of the Infinite possibilities? Is awareness bound to happen eventually in Infinity?

This question is quite puzzling and I'd like to hear some of my brothers/sisters perspectives on such a paradox.

I think the last two questions you raise are approximately correct! Interestingly enough, I was on this exact quotes last night... Trying to figure something out about the same type of paradox; "everything from nothings" and others in this context... The awareness raises the same way as one becomes aware of their heart beat! Do you remember the first time you consciously became aware of your heart beat? Hearing it and making sense of what it is.... Most likely not... And then as you grew the heart beat became more then just a beat coming out of your chest... You became involved with it.. You learned what it is, why it's there and what purpose it serves... You understood that you are alive because of it! Surely when you first consciously became of aware of the sound itself, you did not yet think in such complex terms of understanding to realize that your existence depends on it. Right?
Infinity has no end and has no beginning!

Thus we and the Infinity is always aware... The creation is the death/birth process... The growth of awareness from the forgetfulness of rebirth! The Big Bang had to blow up something to create something!

Shine Light, Shine upon those, who's shadows will make the world have its Colors!

"Dissolution into nothingness is dissolution into oneness because there is no nothingness."

If the first thing in creation is infinity and since the Creator and Creation are the same, the first thing in Creation is the Creator. The One Infinite Creator is identical to infinity. The infinite something, the infinite oneness.

But what is "infinity"? Ra is very careful with the words that he uses, so it might be wise to reconsider what this word actually means:

in-finite

in: without, lacking, not
finite: bounded, limited

To be infinite is to lack boundaries. This explains Ra's statement that infinity=unity. For if something lacks boundaries, then it lacks boundaries in all directions: up, down, inward, outward, etc. A friend of mine likes to think of infinity as a perfectly consistent soup: no part can be distinguished from any other part because there are no parts and therefore no distinguishing.

So what happened? Ra will openly state that their own 7th density teachers have impressed upon them that there is much about this existence which is "clothed in mystery", so I would venture to suggest that "infinity became aware" is just such a mystery. Ra also says that the elaboration of Creation is a continuous repetition of the Creator's act of becoming self-aware. In other words, "infinity became aware" seems to be a primordial axiom about which the entire Universe revolves.

Ra says in Session 13, "The intelligent infinity discerned a concept. This concept was discerned to be freedom of will of awareness. This concept was finity. This was the first and primal paradox or distortion of the Law of One. Thus the one intelligent infinity invested itself in an exploration of many-ness."

This is the means by which intelligent infinity becomes individualized, i.e. the means by which a part of intelligent infinity becomes aware of itself. One can retroactively imagine that the becoming aware of infinity is somehow parallel.

oh infinity... heh.. more like unknowable/unknown.... what is beyond awareness can not be known, it is the same as nothing because there is no-thing to perceive.

You could say so or not..

So if the creator can't see itself when it is truly ONE then, who is the creator ? is there a creator ? the definition and meaning of existence is relative therefore hence many, unity is plural and at least 2.

The very idea of the impossibility of completely and consistently defining existence/"one" is what causes all these dreams that we are.

Although saying that it "causes" it is not correct either.

How far into the looking glass it goes ?

memory-identity-feelings/experience subjectivity that seeks the objective that it can not reach.

yes well but awareness as awareness is very simple state (which is probably also very blissful) You simply are. no question no differentiation beyond the first, no you and me no social no animal no elemmental no anything, just awareness just light just love.
Yet awareness does not explain itself beyond the bliss of itself so it dreams away... or something...
heh well it is kind of fun to live in that world where you can dream of strange things of new and old, where you identify with so many POV, where you can write out these very thoughts, it doesn't add to the first stage but it always adds to what comes after.

Ever and ever and ever ... or not ... ?
maybe it would have been better to not ride the wave but alas this is already a thought in the trail of waves.

When you shift easily points of view you see how malleable the experience is and how unreal it becomes but maybe it becomes more real if redefined the meaning of real.

No definite answer means eternal play or drama or boredom although boredom seams harder and harder to maintain you will tend to some end of the balance.

or not maybe it is a complete different stage out of that pool of no-thing,.... of the first subjective awareness

I believe the first state was primal chaos. In that Infinity at this point could be described as singularity, which has no separation. Without separation, there is no focus, memory, or landmarks.

When Ra says free will I understand it as the first separation, in which the two modes came into. That is the potential and kinetic forms.

I believe memory is an absolute nessecity when it comes to 'Intelligence'.

So to me the first distortion/separation was that into the two modes potential and kinetic. Which gave rise to Intelligence. Due to know being able to remember, and subsequently think and articulate.

Infinity is equal to chaos. Chaos is not destruction. But it is without Unity, So it has no reference or meaning. Or in other words it could not remember, or articulate due to singularity or no separation. With no separation basically everything gets the same focus, which is chaos. No separation only everything at once.

Also that is the mystery to me in this talk, what was it that the creator did that separated the potential and kinetic. I believe obviously somehow it has to do with a "body". Possibly the first body was the great androgynous sea. Idk

So in a sense exploring the self is equal to exploring Infinity. Using the now reference, landmarks, and memory we have acquired/developed/created.

Infinity is a description to me, of the creators true state. Infinite no sense of time, place, or personality. Just unending in every direction.

I say this from an experience I had. The first time I did LSD. My friends and I went walking through the woods behind my house. Now I have lived here my entire life. I know those woods like the back of my hand. Well as we walked through a moment into infinity hit. Everything expanded beyond my awareness. I had no clue were I was, I was lost were I had been thousands of times. Everything stretched on limitlessly. I had no idea were I was. It was endless and I couldn't place myself, to know were I was.

(04-29-2011, 12:19 PM)LsavedSmeD Wrote: The first known thing in creation is infinity - according to Ra.

Bolded part is crucial to understand everything that follows. Infinity was “in creation”. We have to remember that our Words are merely symbols which simplify reality and our experience. They stand for phenomenon we cannot fully comprehend.

Infinity was Creation in my understanding. Creator expressed within form I/You/He/She/It/We/You/They/All chosen/desired. Creator cannot be fully known/experienced within the Creation in such case. At some point everything that exists / Creation is a “material vehicle” / Mind/Body/Soul Complex with It’s own Consciousness (Soul of Creation). Those are of course only our simple Words/Symbols. They are referring to something so abstract from our point of view, so far from our capabilities to comprehend, that thinking that We can “deduce right answer” is constantly false.

What We can do at Our stage/level is to amuse Self with such attempts and through that activity to expand imagination and awareness. To Open Self to Thoughts that are based on inner Seekings rather than on dominating mindset of Fellow Creatures.

(04-29-2011, 12:19 PM)LsavedSmeD Wrote: The first known thing in creation is infinity - according to Ra.

Bolded part is crucial to understand everything that follows. Infinity was “in creation”. We have to remember that our Words are merely symbols which simplify reality and our experience. They stand for phenomenon we cannot fully comprehend.

Infinity was Creation in my understanding. Creator expressed within form I/You/He/She/It/We/You/They/All chosen/desired. Creator cannot be fully known/experienced within the Creation in such case. At some point everything that exists / Creation is a “material vehicle” / Mind/Body/Soul Complex with It’s own Consciousness (Soul of Creation). Those are of course only our simple Words/Symbols. They are referring to something so abstract from our point of view, so far from our capabilities to comprehend, that thinking that We can “deduce right answer” is constantly false.

What We can do at Our stage/level is to amuse Self with such attempts and through that activity to expand imagination and awareness. To Open Self to Thoughts that are based on inner Seekings rather than on dominating mindset of Fellow Creatures.

And I agree with that. What I stated above is my concept or paradigm. Which relatively is meaningless in an all truth sense. However it is apart of my journey and affirmation in the path I walk. The creator begins and ends in mystery. Thats the best part. Relish in it. We are going to explore this endlessly. To me its the only thing that could satiate us.

(04-29-2011, 12:19 PM)LsavedSmeD Wrote: The first known thing in creation is infinity - according to Ra.

The next step is Infinity becoming aware.

This step which is the threshold to the desire of the Infinite One to experience itself is the step which I cannot grasp.

How does something without awareness become aware? What caused this awareness? Is it because of the Infinite possibilities? Is awareness bound to happen eventually in Infinity?

This question is quite puzzling and I'd like to hear some of my brothers/sisters perspectives on such a paradox.

I think of it as Learning. Believe it or not but in my mind. The Creator, though far from our experience. Is a being(of sorts...) and learns. I believe Infinite Intelligence is a description of, and in another way a direct derivative of The Creators Own Intelligence. That's my own thoughts, and many will disagree. That is fine, what doesn't resonate drop. =)

I know from what I feel that Creator is an energy pattern. Could be a being or just pure consciousness. I know Creator is everything. It is also a Source that you can tune into. I feel it mostly in my heart chakra and 3rd eye and crown. Although it does touch on all chakras to varying extent.

I believe infinite intelligence is pure bliss. It can only be felt when you're not chasing it.

(04-29-2011, 12:19 PM)LsavedSmeD Wrote: The first known thing in creation is infinity - according to Ra.

The next step is Infinity becoming aware.

This step which is the threshold to the desire of the Infinite One to experience itself is the step which I cannot grasp.

How does something without awareness become aware? What caused this awareness? Is it because of the Infinite possibilities? Is awareness bound to happen eventually in Infinity?

This question is quite puzzling and I'd like to hear some of my brothers/sisters perspectives on such a paradox.

Please disregard anything that may seem untrue to you, for that is free will.

The nature of the creator is that which is not fully explainable in words. Just like the meaning of love can not be said. Though I will provide some food for thought on this matter.
In the begining there was nothing, and then simultaneously came infinity, love/light and then the rest of creation. The nature of the infinite creator is one. So beyond all distortions everything is one. Thus love is infinite, because love and infinity are one. Thus the creator creates as an infinite expression of love. This creativity is an infinite form of art where the creator, sees its self in itselves and creates a knowing of who it is from its own love. thus we being an infinite process of knowing ourselves and being unique. This uniqueness when tempered by love becomes knowing, this uniqueness is an expression of perfect love that resides within the heart of the infinite one.