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Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Hill's got a 3:1 assist/turnover. 11th in the league. That really surprised me, for a guy that's not a PG and all. Maybe we bid against ourselves during his RFA period and coulda played more hardball, but I don't really get how you can watch Hill this year and not think 8 mil a year is at least reasonable compensation. It's not worth complaining about at all.

Griping about Roy's money I get, his deal's looking pretty damn terrible, but complaining about Hill's is just looking for an excuse to grind your axe.

A stat of 3-1 A/TO doesn't validate a 8 mil contract. I guess 39% FG shooting does. Why don't you comment about the 8 MIL DOLLAR MAN's last 3 outings of 18%, 38%. and 33% FG shooting. 8 Mil dollar people know the game score in the last few seconds of the game, and make better decisions when trying to win the game at the end. Until Hill starts playing like he's earning 8 mil, I'll keep saying he's not worth his contract. That he's OVERPAID!

Neither is Hibbert worth the MAX he got. They got paid the contracts they wanted now EARN them!! I've pointed out what some other PG's got paid this year, less than Hill, and they are bargains for what they are producing for those teams who gave them the contracts. Even though I feel both Hill and Hibbert got overpaid, they need to produce to justify their contracts. They aren't, and that's the problem.

I never complained that Granger got overpaid by Bird. Bird negotiated a good contract unlike what Walsh has. Compare Rudy Gay's contract to Granger's contract, I'm a Rudy Gay fan, but his contract is terrible. GAY GOT OVERPAID just like Hibbert and Hill got overpaid.

Marc Gasol, who I'd take in a heartbeat over Hibbert, got a MAX contract, and he's producing to justify giving it to him. Barkley stated on tv last week he felt Gasol was the 2nd best Center in the NBA. Very valid comment as far as I'm concerned. Hibbert has a way to go to get past Gasol let alone Howard.

If Hibbert and Hill don't like the comments about them from the fans, then do something about their play. It's just that simple.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

A stat of 3-1 A/TO doesn't validate a 8 mil contract. I guess 39% FG shooting does. Why don't you comment about the 8 MIL DOLLAR MAN's last 3 outings of 18%, 38%. and 33% FG shooting. 8 Mil dollar people know the game score in the last few seconds of the game, and make better decisions when trying to win the game at the end. Until Hill starts playing like he's earning 8 mil, I'll keep saying he's not worth his contract. That he's OVERPAID!

Neither is Hibbert worth the MAX he got. They got paid the contracts they wanted now EARN them!! I've pointed out what some other PG's got paid this year, less than Hill, and they are bargains for what they are producing for those teams who gave them the contracts. Even though I feel both Hill and Hibbert got overpaid, they need to produce to justify their contracts. They aren't, and that's the problem.

I never complained that Granger got overpaid by Bird. Bird negotiated a good contract unlike what Walsh has. Compare Rudy Gay's contract to Granger's contract, I'm a Rudy Gay fan, but his contract is terrible. GAY GOT OVERPAID just like Hibbert and Hill got overpaid.

Marc Gasol, who I'd take in a heartbeat over Hibbert, got a MAX contract, and he's producing to justify giving it to him. Barkley stated on tv last week he felt Gasol was the 2nd best Center in the NBA. Very valid comment as far as I'm concerned. Hibbert has a way to go to get past Gasol let alone Howard.

If Hibbert and Hill don't like the comments about them from the fans, then do something about their play. It's just that simple.

This may read as being rude, but I don't mean it to be/that way:

Why do you whine so much about this? Does it make you feel better? I'm honestly curious about this.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

A stat of 3-1 A/TO doesn't validate a 8 mil contract. I guess 39% FG shooting does. Why don't you comment about the 8 MIL DOLLAR MAN's last 3 outings of 18%, 38%. and 33% FG shooting. 8 Mil dollar people know the game score in the last few seconds of the game, and make better decisions when trying to win the game at the end. Until Hill starts playing like he's earning 8 mil, I'll keep saying he's not worth his contract. That he's OVERPAID!

Neither is Hibbert worth the MAX he got. They got paid the contracts they wanted now EARN them!! I've pointed out what some other PG's got paid this year, less than Hill, and they are bargains for what they are producing for those teams who gave them the contracts. Even though I feel both Hill and Hibbert got overpaid, they need to produce to justify their contracts. They aren't, and that's the problem.

I never complained that Granger got overpaid by Bird. Bird negotiated a good contract unlike what Walsh has. Compare Rudy Gay's contract to Granger's contract, I'm a Rudy Gay fan, but his contract is terrible. GAY GOT OVERPAID just like Hibbert and Hill got overpaid.

Marc Gasol, who I'd take in a heartbeat over Hibbert, got a MAX contract, and he's producing to justify giving it to him. Barkley stated on tv last week he felt Gasol was the 2nd best Center in the NBA. Very valid comment as far as I'm concerned. Hibbert has a way to go to get past Gasol let alone Howard.

If Hibbert and Hill don't like the comments about them from the fans, then do something about their play. It's just that simple.

I wasn't aware that there was an obvious line where a player is/isn't worth an arbitrary value of money. What exactly is the line for 8 million? for 7? for 6? If we want a player that's slightly worse, what's the hard line for 5 million? But wait, age/temperament/experience/history/playstyle/potential also come into play. So please give me a mix that would work for 8 million.

You can't, because there's no way to do it. NBA execs can't. They speculate as much as any fans of the team, but they've proven that they can make good decisions after working in a related field or it wouldn't be their job to speculate. In another sense, it's their job if they fail. They make their big bucks, but if they are consistently wrong they lose their job.
So they have pressure whereas fans sitting at home getting angry about how somebody is using someone else's money do not.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Why do you whine so much about this? Does it make you feel better? I'm honestly curious about this.

What it comes down to is this: do you believe fans can impact change?

If the answer is yes, the people out there trying to convince you the grass isn't so green are trying to get you on their side so that a louder collective voice of fans expressing displeasure can lead to change. If enough fans accept or approve of the job the management is doing, they have no incentive to change their behavior. They will shrug and say, well, the customers are ok with the product so I guess we did a good enough job. Why pay for a new coach? Fans are happy enough, whatever. Why try to bring in better players, that'd cost us more money, fans are coming anyway no reason to increase expenses. Why pay for a new GM, this safely mediocre product keeps our finances afloat and the fans aren't upset enough about it to cost us revenue.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Why do you whine so much about this? Does it make you feel better? I'm honestly curious about this.

LOL! No, it doesn't make me feel better. It's just frustrating to see Walsh overpay. Yes, I realize that's an opinion that not very one agrees with. I've put forth my reasons why I feel this way. I've shown what other PG's got this off season, less money and producing more than Hill. Maybe, it's that Checkbook Donnie was the one who was in charge of Hill getting his contract. I was extemely vocal about not wanting Walsh back for this exact reason. Maybe, it's a number of things about Hill getting 8 mil. All, I can say and truly feel is Hill got OVERPAID. I'm not saying Hill's a bad player. I'm just saying he got overpaid.

Even saying and feeling that way, NO ONE wishes more than I that Hill proves me wrong over his contract, but I seriously doubt it happens. Personally, I don't feel I'm wrong just like I wasn't wrong when Bird overpaid Foster with his history of health issues... TWICE.

A stat of 3-1 A/TO doesn't validate a 8 mil contract. I guess 39% FG shooting does. Why don't you comment about the 8 MIL DOLLAR MAN's last 3 outings of 18%, 38%. and 33% FG shooting. 8 Mil dollar people know the game score in the last few seconds of the game, and make better decisions when trying to win the game at the end. Until Hill starts playing like he's earning 8 mil, I'll keep saying he's not worth his contract. That he's OVERPAID!

okay he's shot poorly his last 3 games, but the 3 games before that he was great. You can't go off and say he's overpaid the second he has a bad game or two, just like somebody can't say he's worth every penny after he's had a few good games. For his career, G.Hill has shot a very respectable %, so there's no reason to believe that once (if) he get's a backup and he's able to play less minutes, his shooting %'s will go back to normal.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Okay, so you keep feeling frustrated by it and thus keep complaining about it. Understandable. But at what point do you just accept it for what it is and move on?

When Hill earns the contract he got, and right now he's not earning it. Only Hill can put my ragging on his contract to an end. His play either gives me reason to be upset or makes me mute. It's up to Hill's play, and he controls his play.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

When Hill earns the contract he got, and right now he's not earning it. Only Hill can put my ragging on his contract to an end. His play either gives me reason to be upset or makes me mute. It's up to Hill's play, and he controls his play.

You keep avoiding answering what it is you are looking for. At what point will you be okay with his contract? Does he need to score more? Or just more efficiently? Does he have to have a requisite number of assists? You keep saying he isn't doing it now, but I assume you have some sort of ridiculous threshold where he becomes worth his contract.

When in fact the difference between him in the game and not in the game is almost as strong as the difference between PG or West in/out of the game. Regardless of the statistics they are boasting.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

If the answer is yes, the people out there trying to convince you the grass isn't so green are trying to get you on their side so that a louder collective voice of fans expressing displeasure can lead to change. If enough fans accept or approve of the job the management is doing, they have no incentive to change their behavior. They will shrug and say, well, the customers are ok with the product so I guess we did a good enough job. Why pay for a new coach? Fans are happy enough, whatever. Why try to bring in better players, that'd cost us more money, fans are coming anyway no reason to increase expenses. Why pay for a new GM, this safely mediocre product keeps our finances afloat and the fans aren't upset enough about it to cost us revenue.

If the answer is no, complaining is still cathartic at times.

Good point. The answer is definitely no, though.

I've seen it a lot of times. Fans who try to "react" by booing are not making their teams better. They are making them worse. I've seen numerous teams collapse due to such kind of fan "support". The basketball league of my country only has 2 teams that can compete in the Euroleague level. The other ones are bankrupt. Why? Because their fans tried to boycot to express their displeasure. And thus, the team collapsed.

There's only a single way that a fan can contribute to the betterment and the success of his team. To support it!

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

When Hill earns the contract he got, and right now he's not earning it. Only Hill can put my ragging on his contract to an end. His play either gives me reason to be upset or makes me mute. It's up to Hill's play, and he controls his play.

So you don't see a point in the future where you just accept that he's overpaid and let it go?

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

You keep avoiding answering what it is you are looking for. At what point will you be okay with his contract? Does he need to score more? Or just more efficiently? Does he have to have a requisite number of assists? You keep saying he isn't doing it now, but I assume you have some sort of ridiculous threshold where he becomes worth his contract.

When in fact the difference between him in the game and not in the game is almost as strong as the difference between PG or West in/out of the game. Regardless of the statistics they are boasting.

One of the biggest problems I have with posters on forums is they never answer my questions, but it is expected of me to answer their questions. It's not a 1 way street folks. I'll answer your question not that I feel I'm obligated to do so, since seldom does anyone answer my questions that I propose to them.

George Hill is not a PG. He's a combo guard. Please spare me the spiel about the NBA moving away from true PG towards different type of PG. Have you truly looked at Hill's stats? Oops, I asked a question.

Hill averages 13 shots per game at 39% FG. Out of those 13 shots 5 of them are 3Pters, that's almost 40% of the shots he takes. He makes 1.6 out of 5 shots at 32%. ( I can remember when Tinsley got raked for shooting 32%) Yet, Hill only shoots 3 FT per game. That says he's not driving to the basket, but standing around the arch too much. Hill shoots over 80% from the FT line, yet he doesn't max his FT% asset. He needs to penetrate more and either dish off for an ast, or drive to the rim for a basket. If this happens, his FT attempts will increase.

Hill is averaging 5 APG. He needs to be at 7-8 APG. You can't get asts if you are looking for a 3 pt shot. As a PG, his job is to get his team mates involved and make them better. Sorry, but that's not the case. Hill doesn't have a true PG mentality as being a combo guard.

His "D" was touted to be really good when Bird traded for him. Compared to TJ, DC, DJ, and others it is good. But what's that really saying? It's like saying player x is the top scorer on a poor team. Someone has to score the points. The backcourt "D" isn't that good. If a team has a good b/c, the Pacers "D" suffers due to poor b/c "D" play. That's on Hill.

I could continue, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. Hill just isn't worth the 8 mil contract he got. Save yourself the time and energy with any apologist Hill responses. I've seen them all by now.

When I came to PD 4 plus years ago, I stated I never expected to convince others to change their views, but to express my opinions. I don't care if you agree or not with my opinions as it's how I feel. You and others are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. AND until George Hill's game improves to where he's earning his contract I will voice my disapproval of his overpaid contract. It's my opinion, and I feel it is a very valid one!

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

One of the biggest problems I have with posters on forums is they never answer my questions, but it is expected of me to answer their questions. It's not a 1 way street folks. I'll answer your question not that I feel I'm obligated to do so, since seldom does anyone answer my questions that I propose to them.

George Hill is not a PG. He's a combo guard. Please spare me the spiel about the NBA moving away from true PG towards different type of PG. Have you truly looked at Hill's stats? Oops, I asked a question.

Hill averages 13 shots per game at 39% FG. Out of those 13 shots 5 of them are 3Pters, that's almost 40% of the shots he takes. He makes 1.6 out of 5 shots at 32%. ( I can remember when Tinsley got raked for shooting 32%) Yet, Hill only shoots 3 FT per game. That says he's not driving to the basket, but standing around the arch too much. Hill shoots over 80% from the FT line, yet he doesn't max his FT% asset. He needs to penetrate more and either dish off for an ast, or drive to the rim for a basket. If this happens, his FT attempts will increase.

Hill is averaging 5 APG. He needs to be at 7-8 APG. You can't get asts if you are looking for a 3 pt shot. As a PG, his job is to get his team mates involved and make them better. Sorry, but that's not the case. Hill doesn't have a true PG mentality as being a combo guard.

His "D" was touted to be really good when Bird traded for him. Compared to TJ, DC, DJ, and others it is good. But what's that really saying? It's like saying player x is the top scorer on a poor team. Someone has to score the points. The backcourt "D" isn't that good. If a team has a good b/c, the Pacers "D" suffers due to poor b/c "D" play. That's on Hill.

I could continue, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. Hill just isn't worth the 8 mil contract he got. Save yourself the time and energy with any apologist Hill responses. I've seen them all by now.

When I came to PD 4 plus years ago, I stated I never expected to convince others to change their views, but to express my opinions. I don't care if you agree or not with my opinions as it's how I feel. You and others are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. AND until George Hill's game improves to where he's earning his contract I will voice my disapproval of his overpaid contract. It's my opinion, and I feel it is a very valid one!

Have you ever considered maybe you just have a different definition of PG than others? Outside of the superstar PG's (Rondo, CP3, D-Will) there prob isn't a PG in the league that could average 8+ assists with this Pacer team and with our offensive system.

I agree that he's shooting way too much from the outside this year. He definitely needs to take it to the basket alot more. I also agree that the PG is the head of the defense, but I disagree wholeheartedly that GH is playing bad D. We either lead the league or are near the top of the league in most statistical categories. It's hard to do that (dare I say impossible to do that) if you have poor defense from the PG position.

All in all, I think it's much too early to grade GH's performance. DG got off to an even worse shooting start last season, and wound up finishing the year very strong. I wouldn't be surprised if GH did the same.

But in the end you're right, we (Hill "apologists") should just agree to disagree b/c your mind is made up for now that Hill isn't worth 8 mil. And there's nothing wrong with that

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

One of the biggest problems I have with posters on forums is they never answer my questions, but it is expected of me to answer their questions. It's not a 1 way street folks. I'll answer your question not that I feel I'm obligated to do so, since seldom does anyone answer my questions that I propose to them.

George Hill is not a PG. He's a combo guard. Please spare me the spiel about the NBA moving away from true PG towards different type of PG. Have you truly looked at Hill's stats? Oops, I asked a question.

Hill averages 13 shots per game at 39% FG. Out of those 13 shots 5 of them are 3Pters, that's almost 40% of the shots he takes. He makes 1.6 out of 5 shots at 32%. ( I can remember when Tinsley got raked for shooting 32%) Yet, Hill only shoots 3 FT per game. That says he's not driving to the basket, but standing around the arch too much. Hill shoots over 80% from the FT line, yet he doesn't max his FT% asset. He needs to penetrate more and either dish off for an ast, or drive to the rim for a basket. If this happens, his FT attempts will increase.

Hill is averaging 5 APG. He needs to be at 7-8 APG. You can't get asts if you are looking for a 3 pt shot. As a PG, his job is to get his team mates involved and make them better. Sorry, but that's not the case. Hill doesn't have a true PG mentality as being a combo guard.

His "D" was touted to be really good when Bird traded for him. Compared to TJ, DC, DJ, and others it is good. But what's that really saying? It's like saying player x is the top scorer on a poor team. Someone has to score the points. The backcourt "D" isn't that good. If a team has a good b/c, the Pacers "D" suffers due to poor b/c "D" play. That's on Hill.

I could continue, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. Hill just isn't worth the 8 mil contract he got. Save yourself the time and energy with any apologist Hill responses. I've seen them all by now.

When I came to PD 4 plus years ago, I stated I never expected to convince others to change their views, but to express my opinions. I don't care if you agree or not with my opinions as it's how I feel. You and others are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. AND until George Hill's game improves to where he's earning his contract I will voice my disapproval of his overpaid contract. It's my opinion, and I feel it is a very valid one!

Your opinion is valid that he is overpaid, but not based on the NBA. Seeing as though the only measurement for price on a player is what the going price for similar players is, Hill is actually priced well.

For 8 million dollars, you're basically expecting chris paul numbers minus one assist. Paul makes almost 18 mil, btw. Here's the list of players with more than 6.5 APG this year and their salaries:

If you're going to use stats to back up how you feel, please understand that they don't. If Hill were capable of 8 APG this year, he would have cost a whole lot more. About 11 mil per year, which is what all the PG such as Lawson/Curry/Holiday are getting. All who fit perfectly into what you think is worth 8 million. It's your opinion to keep, sure. But understand that people are fighting with you because that opinion means you think basically every point guard in the league is overpaid.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Being a little vain isn't all bad, it pushes some to be better. Achievers in life all have a streak of vainess in them. It's how we deal with being vain that counts. Some of us can deal with it better than others can.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Until someone other than Donnie Walsh is the GM that signs him. JT hates Walsh and any move impacted by Donnie. If you keep that fact in mind, all of JT's posts make perfect sense.

You have some validity to your statement, but I don't HATE Walsh. I dislike him as the Pacers GM. I was a fan of what Walsh was able to do in NY. I just didn't want to see him in charge of the Pacers again. Any team would be fine with me as long as it's not the Pacers. I didn't like how he left the Pacers, and didn't want to see a redeux.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Being a little vain isn't all bad, it pushes some to be better. Achievers in life all have a streak of vainess in them. It's how we deal with being vain that counts. Some of us can deal with it better than others can.

Actually, no. Vain people usually fall flat and fail because they tend to think too highly of themselves. The achievers in life are usually those that while confident are modest enough to understand their shortcomings and overcome them.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Your opinion is valid that he is overpaid, but not based on the NBA. Seeing as though the only measurement for price on a player is what the going price for similar players is, Hill is actually priced well.

For 8 million dollars, you're basically expecting chris paul numbers minus one assist. Paul makes almost 18 mil, btw. Here's the list of players with more than 6.5 APG this year and their salaries:

If you're going to use stats to back up how you feel, please understand that they don't. If Hill were capable of 8 APG this year, he would have cost a whole lot more. About 11 mil per year, which is what all the PG such as Lawson/Curry/Holiday are getting. All who fit perfectly into what you think is worth 8 million. It's your opinion to keep, sure. But understand that people are fighting with you because that opinion means you think basically every point guard in the league is overpaid.

Remember, I said 7-8 asts. I knew when I put 8 Asts someone would jump on it. I should have said 7 ast.

I've already posted PGs that were given contracts this past off season who got less money and are producing better. Hill's contract is what it is, and I can't change it. I just don't have to like it. Bottom line is I feel Walsh overpaid to keep Hill, and left money on the table that could have been used in upgrading the bench. I realize my opinion isn't a popular one, but it's just how I personally feel. If I felt any other way, I wouldn't be true to myself.

To the bench: my problem with the bench signings were that they were fully guaranteed contracts w/o any Team Options. Walsh dug the Pacers a hole, b/c if Mahinmi and Green don't pan out the Pacers are stuck with them for the length of their contract.

I don't fault Walsh on signing Augustin. At the time, I felt Augustin was a good pickup. It just hasn't turned out that way. Under the current circumstance, Augustin's 1 year expiring contract comes off the books at seasons end. (See I'm not all anti-Walsh, LOL!)

My problem with Augustin not working out is it's playing Hill too much each game, b/c he doesn't have a good b/u than can give him the rest he needs. He'll be wore out before the trade deadline arrives. Why pay 8 mil and ruin your investment? This is why it's imperative for Walsh to make a trade NOW for a PG.

Re: George Hill was worth every bit of 8 mil

Remember, I said 7-8 asts. I knew when I put 8 Asts someone would jump on it. I should have said 7 ast.

I've already posted PGs that were given contracts this past off season who got less money and are producing better. Hill's contract is what it is, and I can't change it. I just don't have to like it. Bottom line is I feel Walsh overpaid to keep Hill, and left money on the table that could have been used in upgrading the bench. I realize my opinion isn't a popular one, but it's just how I personally feel. If I felt any other way, I wouldn't be true to myself.

To the bench: my problem with the bench signings were that they were fully guaranteed contracts w/o any Team Options. Walsh dug the Pacers a hole, b/c if Mahinmi and Green don't pan out the Pacers are stuck with them for the length of their contract.

I don't fault Walsh on signing Augustin. At the time, I felt Augustin was a good pickup. It just hasn't turned out that way. Under the current circumstance, Augustin's 1 year expiring contract comes off the books at seasons end. (See I'm not all anti-Walsh, LOL!)

My problem with Augustin not working out is it's playing Hill too much each game, b/c he doesn't have a good b/u than can give him the rest he needs. He'll be wore out before the trade deadline arrives. Why pay 8 mil and ruin your investment? This is why it's imperative for Walsh to make a trade NOW for a PG.

Nothing in my post was predicated on the fact that you included 8 assists. When I said Chris Paul, I was referencing FG%, 3PT%, assists, points, everything. And there is only 1 point guard in the league not on a rookie contract that gets 6.5 assists or more with a lower salary than Hill's. And Mo Williams is the only one even close to 8 mil at 8.5.

I initially believed Hill was overpaid before the season started. But I believe he is worth it now. And I based my opinion on how the team plays with him out there on the floor, not on his individual stats. I do agree that we could have a slight downgrade and only have to pay 5 million a year somewhere else. But is that player available? Maybe not. But we definitely can't afford a better one with our team, and I think we need to have a player of Hill's caliber to succeed with our roster.