"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message news:4b8c82f0$0$1587$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>Ray Fischer wrote:>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood on>>>>>>>> their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation of>>>>>>>> a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts adversely on>>>>>>>> society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because they>>>>>>> choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles.>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate murderous bigots like you.>>>>>>>> How many AIDS victims have the mental illness prone Homosexuals>>>>>> And like the Nazis who tried to exerminate homosexuals you spew the>>> same kind of evil lies and filth.>>>>Making Homosexual acts illegal and fining them or sending them to gaol>>for infringing said laws is hardly extermination.>> It's what the nazis did.>>>Ease up on the Poofterphile hysteria.>> Ease up on the murdeorus bigotry.>>>Homosexuality _was_ classified as a mental condition>> By people like the nazis.>And he agrees with the Nazi's hmmm...

Ray Fischer wrote:> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood on>>>>>>>> their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation of>>>>>>>> a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts adversely on>>>>>>>> society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles.>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate murderous bigots like you.>>>>>>>> How many AIDS victims have the mental illness prone Homosexuals>>>>>> And like the Nazis who tried to exerminate homosexuals you spew the>>> same kind of evil lies and filth.>>>> Making Homosexual acts illegal and fining them or sending them to>> gaol for infringing said laws is hardly extermination.>> It's what the nazis did.>

So did the Allies. Were the Allies, Nazis as well?

>> Ease up on the Poofterphile hysteria.>> Ease up on the murdeorus bigotry.>The only murderous bigotry is in your head.

>> Homosexuality _was_ classified as a mental condition>> By people like the nazis.

_and_ the Allies

== 3 of 8 ==Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 9:54 am From: "regn.pickfod"

Ray Fischer wrote:> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>> news:4b8a34ae$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>> news:4b8a05f5@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> "Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message>>>>>>>>>>> news:4b84d523$0$1649$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Jai Maharaj <usenet@mantra.com and/or>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.mantra.com/jai> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sYWdnTFAUN9LARnWnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>, "Seon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferguson" <seongf@gmail.com> posted:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need any more evidence you are a hater? They are not>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being promoted, they are being taught nto to hate gay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. But that doesn't matter to gay bashers like>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I am not a hater;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you most certainly are.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Homosexual agenda in action.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And there's that hate.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make unsubstantiated attacks against the anti Homosexual>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such as fabricating some "homosexual agenda"?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't he realise a "anti Homosexual individual" is a gay>>>>>>>>>>> basher?>>>>>>>>>> know nuthin Seon ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood>>>>>>>>>> on their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation>>>>>>>>>> of a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts>>>>>>>>>> adversely on society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles. They should be>>>>>>>> regulated to protect the community and themselves.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well you and the Taliban and the army of God will have something>>>>>>> in common. Thank god I'm not religious.>>>>>>>>>>>> Is "Thank god I'm not religious" supposed to be a joke? Or is>>>>>> that how you really think?>>>>>> No wonder you support the Homosexual lifestyle.>>>>>>>>>>> It is humorous like thank God I'm an atheist. I don't support any>>>>> lifestyle. I support people's rights to live life however they>>>>> choose. It's a good thing people like you will never get your way.>>>>>>>> The point with jokes is they are funny the first time then they get>>>> boring.>>>>>> Except that you were never funny.>>>> That is your opinion>> Widely shared.>>> and I defend your rightto express that opinion.>> Nah.>>> Even Faggotphiles got rights.>> That's how you're still allowed to post here.

Whore whore whore whore

== 4 of 8 ==Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 10:44 am From: "regn.pickfod"

Seon Ferguson wrote:> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message> news:4b8ac980@news.comindico.com.au...>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>> news:4b8a34ae$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>> news:4b8a05f5@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>> "Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message>>>>>>>>> news:4b84d523$0$1649$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Jai Maharaj <usenet@mantra.com and/or>>>>>>>>>>>> www.mantra.com/jai> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sYWdnTFAUN9LARnWnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>, "Seon>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferguson" <seongf@gmail.com> posted:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need any more evidence you are a hater? They are not>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being promoted, they are being taught nto to hate gay>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. But that doesn't matter to gay bashers like you.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I am not a hater;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you most certainly are.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Homosexual agenda in action.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And there's that hate.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make unsubstantiated attacks against the anti Homosexual>>>>>>>>>>> individual.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such as fabricating some "homosexual agenda"?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't he realise a "anti Homosexual individual" is a gay>>>>>>>>> basher?>>>>>>>> know nuthin Seon ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood on>>>>>>>> their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation of>>>>>>>> a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts adversely on>>>>>>>> society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles. They should be>>>>>> regulated to protect the community and themselves.>>>>>>>>>>> Well you and the Taliban and the army of God will have something>>>>> in common. Thank god I'm not religious.>>>>>>>> Is "Thank god I'm not religious" supposed to be a joke? Or is that>>>> how you really think?>>>> No wonder you support the Homosexual lifestyle.>>>>>>> It is humorous like thank God I'm an atheist. I don't support any>>> lifestyle. I support people's rights to live life however they>>> choose. It's a good thing people like you will never get your way.>>>> The point with jokes is they are funny the first time then they get>> boring.>> It is a pity people like me don't get our way, for we are the>> moderates so without moderation, the scale keeps swinging from one>> extreme to the other.>>> Yep but paranoid loons like you are funny 24/7 lol

So you agree I'm a moderate and without moderates thescale tips from one extreme to another.

-you know it costs the taxpayers in NSW mmmwe aren't actually told how much we are paying for the priviledge of boosting the turnover in a few Sydney venues by a claimed 30 Million a yearand supposedly bringing in 500 000 sex tourists from all parts of the Globewith all the latest diseases to share around

regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>Ray Fischer wrote:>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>> news:4b8a34ae$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>>> news:4b8a05f5@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>> "Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message>>>>>>>>>>>> news:4b84d523$0$1649$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...>>>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Jai Maharaj <usenet@mantra.com and/or>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.mantra.com/jai> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sYWdnTFAUN9LARnWnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>, "Seon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferguson" <seongf@gmail.com> posted:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need any more evidence you are a hater? They are not>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being promoted, they are being taught nto to hate gay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. But that doesn't matter to gay bashers like>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I am not a hater;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you most certainly are.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Homosexual agenda in action.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And there's that hate.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make unsubstantiated attacks against the anti Homosexual>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such as fabricating some "homosexual agenda"?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't he realise a "anti Homosexual individual" is a gay>>>>>>>>>>>> basher?>>>>>>>>>>> know nuthin Seon ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood>>>>>>>>>>> on their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation>>>>>>>>>>> of a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts>>>>>>>>>>> adversely on society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles. They should be>>>>>>>>> regulated to protect the community and themselves.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well you and the Taliban and the army of God will have something>>>>>>>> in common. Thank god I'm not religious.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is "Thank god I'm not religious" supposed to be a joke? Or is>>>>>>> that how you really think?>>>>>>> No wonder you support the Homosexual lifestyle.>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is humorous like thank God I'm an atheist. I don't support any>>>>>> lifestyle. I support people's rights to live life however they>>>>>> choose. It's a good thing people like you will never get your way.>>>>>>>>>> The point with jokes is they are funny the first time then they get>>>>> boring.>>>>>>>> Except that you were never funny.>>>>>> That is your opinion>>>> Widely shared.>>>>> and I defend your rightto express that opinion.>>>> Nah.>>>>> Even Faggotphiles got rights.>>>> That's how you're still allowed to post here.>>Whore whore whore whore

regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>Ray Fischer wrote:>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood on>>>>>>>>> their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation of>>>>>>>>> a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts adversely on>>>>>>>>> society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles.>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate murderous bigots like you.>>>>>>>>>> How many AIDS victims have the mental illness prone Homosexuals>>>>>>>> And like the Nazis who tried to exerminate homosexuals you spew the>>>> same kind of evil lies and filth.>>>>>> Making Homosexual acts illegal and fining them or sending them to>>> gaol for infringing said laws is hardly extermination.>>>> It's what the nazis did.>>So did the Allies.

Not any more.

>>> Ease up on the Poofterphile hysteria.>>>> Ease up on the murdeorus bigotry.>>>The only murderous bigotry is in your head.

You're the one who hates homosexuals so much that you want topersecute and imprison them, bigot.

>>> Homosexuality _was_ classified as a mental condition>>>> By people like the nazis.>>_and_ the Allies

"regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message news:4b8d5c97@news.comindico.com.au...> Seon Ferguson wrote:>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>> news:4b8ac980@news.comindico.com.au...>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>> news:4b8a34ae$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>> news:4b8a05f5@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>>> "Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message>>>>>>>>>> news:4b84d523$0$1649$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...>>>>>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Jai Maharaj <usenet@mantra.com and/or>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.mantra.com/jai> wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <sYWdnTFAUN9LARnWnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>, "Seon>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferguson" <seongf@gmail.com> posted:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need any more evidence you are a hater? They are not>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being promoted, they are being taught nto to hate gay>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. But that doesn't matter to gay bashers like you.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I am not a hater;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you most certainly are.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Homosexual agenda in action.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And there's that hate.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Make unsubstantiated attacks against the anti Homosexual>>>>>>>>>>>> individual.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such as fabricating some "homosexual agenda"?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't he realise a "anti Homosexual individual" is a gay>>>>>>>>>> basher?>>>>>>>>> know nuthin Seon ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood on>>>>>>>>> their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation of>>>>>>>>> a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts adversely on>>>>>>>>> society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles. They should be>>>>>>> regulated to protect the community and themselves.>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well you and the Taliban and the army of God will have something>>>>>> in common. Thank god I'm not religious.>>>>>>>>>> Is "Thank god I'm not religious" supposed to be a joke? Or is that>>>>> how you really think?>>>>> No wonder you support the Homosexual lifestyle.>>>>>>>>> It is humorous like thank God I'm an atheist. I don't support any>>>> lifestyle. I support people's rights to live life however they>>>> choose. It's a good thing people like you will never get your way.>>>>>> The point with jokes is they are funny the first time then they get>>> boring.>>> It is a pity people like me don't get our way, for we are the>>> moderates so without moderation, the scale keeps swinging from one>>> extreme to the other.>>>>> Yep but paranoid loons like you are funny 24/7 lol>> So you agree I'm a moderate and without moderates the> scale tips from one extreme to another.>How is someone who wants to make homosexuality illegal a moderate? Sure you don't go around yelling kill gay people so I guess compared to those kooks you are moderate.

> How `grown up` of you Seon.>> Bit harsh with the `paranoid loon` insult but> you're showing signs of improvement. I'll have> you wanting to ban the Mardi Gras, before you know it.>Not as long as it pours money into Sydney.

> -you know it costs the taxpayers in NSW mmm> we aren't actually told how much we are paying for the priviledge of > boosting> the turnover in a few Sydney venues by a claimed 30 Million a year> and supposedly bringing in 500 000 sex tourists from all parts of the > Globe> with all the latest diseases to share around>>So? it brings money to Sydney. Big deal.

"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message news:4b8d600b$0$1673$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>Ray Fischer wrote:>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>> Ray Fischer wrote:>>>>>>> regn.pickfod <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote:>>>>>>>> Seon Ferguson wrote:>>>>>>>>> "regn.pickfod" <regn@mysoul.cop.au> wrote in message>>>>>>>>> news:4b857369$1@news.comindico.com.au...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Gay basher is a red blooded Heterosexual with faggot blood on>>>>>>>>>> their boots.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An anti Homosexual is someone who opposes the normalisation of>>>>>>>>>> a perversion because it is disgusting and impacts adversely on>>>>>>>>>> society's morality.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both are just as bad. We shouldn't hate someone just because>>>>>>>>> they choose to live a lifestyle we may find disgusting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate Homosexual lifestyles.>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't tolerate murderous bigots like you.>>>>>>>>>>>> How many AIDS victims have the mental illness prone Homosexuals>>>>>>>>>> And like the Nazis who tried to exerminate homosexuals you spew the>>>>> same kind of evil lies and filth.>>>>>>>> Making Homosexual acts illegal and fining them or sending them to>>>> gaol for infringing said laws is hardly extermination.>>>>>> It's what the nazis did.>>>>So did the Allies.>> Not any more.>>>>> Ease up on the Poofterphile hysteria.>>>>>> Ease up on the murdeorus bigotry.>>>>>The only murderous bigotry is in your head.>> You're the one who hates homosexuals so much that you want to> persecute and imprison them, bigot.>>>>> Homosexuality _was_ classified as a mental condition>>>>>> By people like the nazis.>>>>_and_ the Allies>> You nazis STILL hate homosexuals. Sane people have gotten over it.>The only people who care if someone is gay are religious morons and neo nazi's. Or people who's sexuality is threatened. The rest don't care if someone is gay.

"FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in message news:4b892007$0$12922$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...> "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote in message> On Feb 25, 10:42 pm, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:>> "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote in message>>>> news:nzhhn.9622$pv.1654@news-server.bigpond.net.au...>>>> > "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote in message>> >news:4b852577$0$25779$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...>> >> "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote in message>>>> >>> Which part of the Australian constitution says that Australia is a>> >>> secular country?>>>> >> Chapter 5, Section 116.>>>> > What are the words?>>>> google will help you find it.>>>> > Is there a preamble in the Australian constitution stating that >> > Australia>> > is a secular country?>>>> No.>>>> > The Indian constitution has one, where India is constitutionally a>> > socialist, secular and democratic state.>>>> What India has in its Constitution or in any Preamble has no bearing>> whatsoever on what Australia has in its Consitution.>> Okay, found it in about 60 seconds. Basically they say that a> person's religion will not impact upon any Govt. appointment, all> religious rights will be protected, and so on. Good.> Sounds secular enough to me from the Indian perspective - there> secularism does not mean atheism. Quite the reverse, a secular state> can and should be deeply spiritual as it is genuinely tolerant.> Of course, what is religion and what passes for religion, are two> different things.>

this obviously means the whoe australia is behaving unconstitutionally.

==============================================================================TOPIC: PAKI TALIBAN CONFIRM DEATH OF QARI ZAFAR [TIME TO ORDER UP MORE VIRGINS]

Islam-Is-Bad - The Pakistani Taliban confirmed Tuesday that a seniorcommander wanted in the deadly 2006 bombing of the US consulate inKarachi was killed in a suspected American missile strike innorthwestern Pakistan.

Mohammed Qari Zafar's death, which was reported earlier by Pakistaniintelligence officials, marks the latest success from Washington'scovert CIA-run drone program in Pakistan. The unmanned aircraft havecarried out more than 100 missile strikes near the Afghan bordersince 2004, killing several senior Taliban and al-Qaida leaders.

The Taliban described Zafar as a martyr in a statement faxed to localjournalists and pledged to avenge his death. It is uncommon for theTaliban to confirm the death of one of its members in a missilestrike.

''The mujahideen will soon take revenge against the Pakistanigovernment for his killing anywhere in the country,'' said thestatement.

Pakistani officials routinely protest the drone strikes as violationsof the country's sovereignty. But US officials, who refuse to speakpublicly about the secret program, say privately that the Pakistanigovernment supports the effort.

Pakistani intelligence officials said last week that Zafar was killedWednesday along with 13 other insurgents when three missiles struck acompound and a vehicle in the Dargah Mandi area of the NorthWaziristan tribal region. They spoke on condition of anonymitybecause they were not authorised to talk to the media.

Zafar, who was a senior member of the banned al-Qaida-linked militantgroup Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, orchestrated the March 2006 suicide carbombing of the US consulate in Karachi, killing US diplomat David Foyand three Pakistanis. He was also believed to be behind the September2008 truck bomb blast at the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad that killed54 people. The US had posted a $5 million dollar reward forinformation leading to his capture.

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educationalpurposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may nothave been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of theposter. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption forfair use of copyrighted works. o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, currente-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number. o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others arenot necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use ofwhich may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyrightowner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance theunderstanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believedthat this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material asprovided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed withoutprofit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the includedinformation for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes bysubscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more informationgo to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtmlIf you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes ofyour own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from thecopyright owner.

Since newsgroup posts are being removedby forgery by one or more net terrorists,this post may be reposted several times.

== 2 of 3 ==Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 1:46 pm From: "Sid9"

"usenet@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)" wrote in message news:20100302Q7gqDQ9pEM0S3g09zuoJX2C@H5GJJ...> Pakistani Taliban confirm death of Qari Zafar>> Dawn> Tuesday, March 2, 2010>> Islam-Is-Bad - The Pakistani Taliban confirmed Tuesday that a senior> commander wanted in the deadly 2006 bombing of the US consulate in> Karachi was killed in a suspected American missile strike in> northwestern Pakistan.>> Mohammed Qari Zafar's death, which was reported earlier by Pakistani> intelligence officials, marks the latest success from Washington's> covert CIA-run drone program in Pakistan. The unmanned aircraft have> carried out more than 100 missile strikes near the Afghan border> since 2004, killing several senior Taliban and al-Qaida leaders.>> The Taliban described Zafar as a martyr in a statement faxed to local> journalists and pledged to avenge his death. It is uncommon for the> Taliban to confirm the death of one of its members in a missile> strike.>> ''The mujahideen will soon take revenge against the Pakistani> government for his killing anywhere in the country,'' said the> statement.>> Pakistani officials routinely protest the drone strikes as violations> of the country's sovereignty. But US officials, who refuse to speak> publicly about the secret program, say privately that the Pakistani> government supports the effort.>> Pakistani intelligence officials said last week that Zafar was killed> Wednesday along with 13 other insurgents when three missiles struck a> compound and a vehicle in the Dargah Mandi area of the North> Waziristan tribal region. They spoke on condition of anonymity> because they were not authorised to talk to the media.>> Zafar, who was a senior member of the banned al-Qaida-linked militant> group Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, orchestrated the March 2006 suicide car> bombing of the US consulate in Karachi, killing US diplomat David Foy> and three Pakistanis. He was also believed to be behind the September> 2008 truck bomb blast at the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad that killed> 54 people. The US had posted a $5 million dollar reward for> information leading to his capture.>> More at:> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/04-taliban-confirm-qari-zafar-death-qs-09>> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi> Om Shanti>> o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the > educational> purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may > not> have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the> poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for> fair use of copyrighted works.> o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,> considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, > current> e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.> o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others > are> not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the > article.>> FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of> which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright> owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the> understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,> democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed> that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with > Title> 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without> profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the > included> information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by> subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more > information> go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml> If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the> copyright owner.>> Since newsgroup posts are being removed> by forgery by one or more net terrorists,> this post may be reposted several times...====================Saudi Wahabiism on the way out?Suicide bombing and terrorism denounced.Fatwa refutes terrorism====================

UK Muslim leader to put fatwa on Jihad

By JONNY PAUL,

02/03/2010 04:40

Ruling is most comprehensive theological refutation of Islamist terrorism.

LONDON ï¿½ A revered mainstream Muslim scholar is set to announce in London on Tuesday a fatwa (Muslim ruling) against terrorism and suicide bombing in the name of Islam.

The Pakistani-born Dr. Qadri has authored an unprecedented, 600-page fatwa on why suicide bombings and terrorism are un-Islamic and scripturally forbidden. The ruling is the most comprehensive theological refutation of Islamist terrorism to date.

The fatwa will also be posted on the Internet and in English, making it readily accessible. It will also set an important precedent and allow other scholars to similarly condemn the ideas behind terrorism.

Dr. Qadri has used texts in the Koran and other Islamic writings to argue that suicide and other terrorist attacks are ï¿½absolutely against the teachings of Islamï¿½ and that ï¿½Islam does not permit such acts on any excuse, reason or pretext.ï¿½

The fatwa condemns suicide bombers as destined for hell, refuting the claim used by Islamists that such terrorists will earn paradise after death.

ï¿½Todayï¿½s tragedy is that terrorists, murderers, mischief-mongers and rioters try to prove their criminal, rebellious, tyrannous, brutal and blasphemous activities as a right and a justified reaction to foreign aggression under the garb of defense of Islam and national interests,ï¿½ he says about suicide bombing.

ï¿½It can in no way be permissible to keep foreign delegates under unlawful custody and murder them and other peaceful non-Muslim citizens in retaliation for interference, unjust activities and aggressive advances of their countries,ï¿½ Qadri said, asserting, ï¿½The one who does has no relation to Islam.ï¿½

Dr. Qadri is the founder of the international Minhaj-ul-Quran movement. Supporters say his fatwa is significant because he is issuing it himself and his movement, a major grass-roots global organization, has hundreds of thousands of followers in South Asia and the UK.

The move has been welcomed by the Quilliam Foundation, a London-based anti-extremism think-tank led by former Islamists.

ï¿½This fatwa has the potential to be a highly significant step towards eradicating Islamist terrorism,ï¿½ a Quilliam spokesperson said. ï¿½Fatwas by Wahhabi-influenced clerics and Islamist ideologues initiated modern terrorism against civilians. Terrorist groups such as al-Qaida continue to justify their mass killings with self-serving readings of religious scripture.

ï¿½Fatwas that demolish and expose such theological innovations will consign Islamist terrorism to the dustbin of history.ï¿½

Londonï¿½s Centre for Social Cohesion think-tank has also welcomed the initiative.

CSC director Douglas Murray believes that in recent years, and since the July 2005 terrorist attack in London, Muslim leaders have failed to unequivocally condemn violence committed in the name of Islam.

ï¿½A sentence that may to many people seem clear, such as ï¿½There can be no justification for the killing of innocent peopleï¿½ is filled with caveats ï¿½ what is an ï¿½innocentï¿½ person? Who decides who is or is not ï¿½innocentï¿½?

ï¿½Too many Muslim religious figures sound as if they are condemning violence when in fact they are merely condemning violence in certain situations, against certain people,ï¿½ he said.

Murray said the fatwa takes away the caveats and will have far-reaching consequences. However he said it wonï¿½t stop Islamic terrorism instantaneously.

ï¿½Dr. ul-Qadri is respected for his ability to cross some of the notable sectarian boundaries that abound in the Islamic faith as in all others. Even Muslims who might dislike him will not be able to dismiss him out of hand.

ï¿½Yet even if the contents of this fatwa are what people have long hoped for, it will not, of course, stop Islamic terrorism straight away. A single fatwa will not change the level of denial and lack of self-criticism inherent in so much of modern Islam. Nor will it stop every fevered young radical eager to kill and maim. But the trickle-down effect is important. The most violent interpretations of Islam have indeed trickled down to terrorists via learned scholars,ï¿½ he said.

== 3 of 3 ==Date: Tues, Mar 2 2010 5:33 pm From: "Bob Hawke"

"Sid9" <sid9@belsouth.net> wrote in message news:hmk0vb$8t5$1@news.eternal-september.org...>> "usenet@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)" wrote in > message news:20100302Q7gqDQ9pEM0S3g09zuoJX2C@H5GJJ...>> Pakistani Taliban confirm death of Qari Zafar>>>> Dawn>> Tuesday, March 2, 2010>>>> Islam-Is-Bad - The Pakistani Taliban confirmed Tuesday that a senior>> commander wanted in the deadly 2006 bombing of the US consulate in>> Karachi was killed in a suspected American missile strike in>> northwestern Pakistan.>>>> Mohammed Qari Zafar's death, which was reported earlier by Pakistani>> intelligence officials, marks the latest success from Washington's>> covert CIA-run drone program in Pakistan. The unmanned aircraft have>> carried out more than 100 missile strikes near the Afghan border>> since 2004, killing several senior Taliban and al-Qaida leaders.>>>> The Taliban described Zafar as a martyr in a statement faxed to local>> journalists and pledged to avenge his death. It is uncommon for the>> Taliban to confirm the death of one of its members in a missile>> strike.>>>> ''The mujahideen will soon take revenge against the Pakistani>> government for his killing anywhere in the country,'' said the>> statement.>>>> Pakistani officials routinely protest the drone strikes as violations>> of the country's sovereignty. But US officials, who refuse to speak>> publicly about the secret program, say privately that the Pakistani>> government supports the effort.>>>> Pakistani intelligence officials said last week that Zafar was killed>> Wednesday along with 13 other insurgents when three missiles struck a>> compound and a vehicle in the Dargah Mandi area of the North>> Waziristan tribal region. They spoke on condition of anonymity>> because they were not authorised to talk to the media.>>>> Zafar, who was a senior member of the banned al-Qaida-linked militant>> group Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, orchestrated the March 2006 suicide car>> bombing of the US consulate in Karachi, killing US diplomat David Foy>> and three Pakistanis. He was also believed to be behind the September>> 2008 truck bomb blast at the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad that killed>> 54 people. The US had posted a $5 million dollar reward for>> information leading to his capture.>>>> More at:>> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/04-taliban-confirm-qari-zafar-death-qs-09>>>> Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi>> Om Shanti>>>> o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the >> educational>> purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may >> not>> have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of >> the>> poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for>> fair use of copyrighted works.>> o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,>> considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, >> current>> e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.>> o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others >> are>> not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the >> article.>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of>> which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright>> owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the>> understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,>> democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is >> believed>> that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as>> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with >> Title>> 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without>> profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the >> included>> information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by>> subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more >> information>> go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml>> If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of>> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the>> copyright owner.>>>> Since newsgroup posts are being removed>> by forgery by one or more net terrorists,>> this post may be reposted several times.> .> .> ====================> Saudi Wahabiism on the way out?> Suicide bombing and terrorism denounced.> Fatwa refutes terrorism> ====================>> UK Muslim leader to put fatwa on Jihad>> By JONNY PAUL,>> 02/03/2010 04:40>> Ruling is most comprehensive theological refutation of Islamist terrorism.>> LONDON ï¿½ A revered mainstream Muslim scholar is set to announce in London > on Tuesday a fatwa (Muslim ruling) against terrorism and suicide bombing > in the name of Islam.>> Sheikh Dr. Tahir ul-Qadri, a widely recognized and respected authority on > Islamic jurisprudence, will issue a comprehensive fatwa prohibiting > terrorism and suicide bombing at a press conference in Westminster, > central London.>> The Pakistani-born Dr. Qadri has authored an unprecedented, 600-page fatwa > on why suicide bombings and terrorism are un-Islamic and scripturally > forbidden. The ruling is the most comprehensive theological refutation of > Islamist terrorism to date.>> The fatwa will also be posted on the Internet and in English, making it > readily accessible. It will also set an important precedent and allow > other scholars to similarly condemn the ideas behind terrorism.>> Dr. Qadri has used texts in the Koran and other Islamic writings to argue > that suicide and other terrorist attacks are ï¿½absolutely against the > teachings of Islamï¿½ and that ï¿½Islam does not permit such acts on any > excuse, reason or pretext.ï¿½>> The fatwa condemns suicide bombers as destined for hell, refuting the > claim used by Islamists that such terrorists will earn paradise after > death.>> ï¿½Todayï¿½s tragedy is that terrorists, murderers, mischief-mongers and > rioters try to prove their criminal, rebellious, tyrannous, brutal and > blasphemous activities as a right and a justified reaction to foreign > aggression under the garb of defense of Islam and national interests,ï¿½ he > says about suicide bombing.>> ï¿½It can in no way be permissible to keep foreign delegates under unlawful > custody and murder them and other peaceful non-Muslim citizens in > retaliation for interference, unjust activities and aggressive advances of > their countries,ï¿½ Qadri said, asserting, ï¿½The one who does has no relation > to Islam.ï¿½>> Dr. Qadri is the founder of the international Minhaj-ul-Quran movement. > Supporters say his fatwa is significant because he is issuing it himself > and his movement, a major grass-roots global organization, has hundreds of > thousands of followers in South Asia and the UK.>> The move has been welcomed by the Quilliam Foundation, a London-based > anti-extremism think-tank led by former Islamists.>> ï¿½This fatwa has the potential to be a highly significant step towards > eradicating Islamist terrorism,ï¿½ a Quilliam spokesperson said. ï¿½Fatwas by > Wahhabi-influenced clerics and Islamist ideologues initiated modern > terrorism against civilians. Terrorist groups such as al-Qaida continue to > justify their mass killings with self-serving readings of religious > scripture.>> ï¿½Fatwas that demolish and expose such theological innovations will consign > Islamist terrorism to the dustbin of history.ï¿½>> Londonï¿½s Centre for Social Cohesion think-tank has also welcomed the > initiative.>> CSC director Douglas Murray believes that in recent years, and since the > July 2005 terrorist attack in London, Muslim leaders have failed to > unequivocally condemn violence committed in the name of Islam.>> ï¿½A sentence that may to many people seem clear, such as ï¿½There can be no > justification for the killing of innocent peopleï¿½ is filled with caveats ï¿½ > what is an ï¿½innocentï¿½ person? Who decides who is or is not ï¿½innocentï¿½?>> ï¿½Too many Muslim religious figures sound as if they are condemning > violence when in fact they are merely condemning violence in certain > situations, against certain people,ï¿½ he said.>> Murray said the fatwa takes away the caveats and will have far-reaching > consequences. However he said it wonï¿½t stop Islamic terrorism > instantaneously.>> ï¿½Dr. ul-Qadri is respected for his ability to cross some of the notable > sectarian boundaries that abound in the Islamic faith as in all others. > Even Muslims who might dislike him will not be able to dismiss him out of > hand.>> ï¿½Yet even if the contents of this fatwa are what people have long hoped > for, it will not, of course, stop Islamic terrorism straight away. A > single fatwa will not change the level of denial and lack of > self-criticism inherent in so much of modern Islam. Nor will it stop every > fevered young radical eager to kill and maim. But the trickle-down effect > is important. The most violent interpretations of Islam have indeed > trickled down to terrorists via learned scholars,ï¿½ he said.>>>>

On January 26, 1972, a JDL team firebombed the New York City officesof a US-Soviet cultural exchange agency. Killed in the fire was a27-year-old secretary (who happened to be Jewish). Thirteen otherswere injured. One participant, Sheldon Siegel, confessed to policethat he had made the bomb, and provided the names of the othersinvolved in the crime. Several years later Kahane acknowledged JDLresponsibility for the crime. However, the case against the JDLmembers who were charged in the incident was eventually dismissed on atechnicality. (note 36)

In May 1972, ten JDL thugs broke into the Austrian consulate inWashington, DC, and beat Austria's ambassador to the US, Karl Gruber,as well as the building's janitor. (note 37)

In May 1974, JDL members attacked Arab-American community activist Dr.Mohammed Mehdi with a lead pipe, sending him to the hospital with abroken back. It took nearly a year for the police to make an arrest,even though a perpetrator had appeared on television to boast of thedeed. A short time later, Mehdi's offices in Manhattan were almosttotally destroyed in an apparent arson attack. (note 38)

On February 21, 1975, a US federal court found Kahane guilty ofviolating terms of a probation stemming from his 1971 felonyconviction for manufacturing firebombs. He had been forbidden fromhaving anything to do with bombs, dynamite or other weapons, orencouraging violence. Citing incriminating letters written by Kahanein which he had urged followers to assassinate Russian and Arabdiplomats, the judge sentenced the rabbi to one year imprisonment.Kahane served eight months of this term in a Manhattan halfway house,which he was allowed to leave every day to eat in kosher restaurants.Kahane used this period of "imprisonment" to conduct JDL business.(note 39)

In 1975, 21-year-old JDL member David Kamaiko hijacked an executivehelicopter in New York City, demanding $2 million ransom to buy gunsfor the JDL. Kamaiko shot the pilot before he was himself subdued.(note 40)

On April 11, 1982, JDL member Allan Goodman opened fire with a machinegun at a Muslim house of worship in Jerusalem, killing two PalestinianArabs: an elderly man and a 20-year-old youth. After entering themosque, he continued firing, critically wounding several people.Goodman, from Baltimore, Maryland, had received paramilitary trainingat the JDL's Camp Jedel in New York state. In an interview, Kahanesaid of the crime, "There was nothing wrong with what he did...the actwas perfectly correct." (note 42)

In 1987, three members of the Jewish Defense League were arrested fortheir involvement in at least six bombing attacks carried out the NewYork area between 1984 and 1987. The accused were Jay Cohen, SharonKatz and Victor Vancier, head of the JDL in the New York area. Afteradmitting his role in the terror bombings, Vancier was sentenced inOctober 1987 to ten years imprisonment. Another JDL member, MurrayYoung, was sentenced to five years in prison. (note 43)

FBI officials believe that the JDL was behind the bomb blast inmid-August 1985 that killed Tscherim Soobzokov in Paterson, NewJersey, and a similar (although non-fatal) bombing attack in earlySeptember 1985 directed against Elmars Sprogis in Brentwood, New York.Soobzokov and Sprogis were falsely alleged to have been "Nazi warcriminals." (note 44)

In January 1991, Kurt Haber-identified in newspaper reports as a"Jewish Holocaust survivor"-was charged with making criminal threatsagainst the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee. (note 45)

Alex Odeh Murder

Perhaps the most widely-publicized crime in which the JDL has beenimplicated is the murder on October 11, 1985, of Alex Odeh, West Coastregional director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.Odeh was killed in a bomb blast when he entered his group's office inSanta Ana, southern California. (note 46)

An FBI official announced in 1985 that the Jewish Defense League wasbelieved responsible for the murder of Odeh and at least two otherterrorist incidents on the East Coast. "We are attributing the threebombings to the JDL," said FBI official Lane Bonner. (note 47)

Similarly, an FBI report released in July 1986 cited "elements" of theJewish Defense League as responsible for the murder of Odeh. (note 48)

Three JDL members were identified by US federal investigators in 1988as the perpetrators of the bombing that took Odeh's life. The accusedassassins, who were born in the USA but fled to Israel to avoidpunishment, are Keith Fuchs, Andy Green and Robert Manning. (note 49)

Law enforcement officials in Los Angeles and New York have namedRobert Manning-an important Jewish Defense League activist-as asuspect in at least four political bombings in 1985, including the onethat killed Odeh. Manning, authorities said, had a two-decade historyof violent activities that also included threats against producers ofa television show. (note 50)

After joining the southern California chapter of the Jewish DefenseLeague as a charter member in 1971, Manning quickly earned areputation as a particularly tough street fighter. JDL chief Irv Rubinpraised him as a "pretty strong boy. I've seen him fight. We tangledwith Nazis in the streets, Arabs in the streets. He was a real activeguy." (note 51) In a 1988 court document, a federal prosecutor wrote:"It became known that [Manning], while purporting to act on behalf ofthe Jewish cause, on several occasions placed or threw explosivedevices at locations of Arab antagonists." (note 52)

The Israeli government sought to obstruct the FBI's investigation ofthe Odeh slaying, the federal agency charged in November 1987. (note53) Manning himself tried to evade extradition by claiming hearttrouble, by taking 20 sleeping pills, and by charging that he wasbeing wrongfully persecuted simply because he is a pious, orthodoxJew. In spite of all this, Manning was finally extradited to theUnited States in July 1993. (note 54)

Official Confirmation of JDL Terrorism

The US Justice Department's Federal Bureau of Investigation hasrepeatedly characterized the JDL as a terrorist and criminalorganization. A report issued in 1985 by the FBI's Terrorist Researchand Analytical Center confirmed: (note 55)

In FBI terrorism analyses published since 1981, responsibility for 18terrorist incidents has been attributed to groups seeking to publicizepast and present injustices suffered by the Jewish people. Whileclaims for some of these acts have been made in the names of the"Jewish Defenders,' "United Jewish Underground," and "Jewish DirectAction," 15 of the incidents were attributed to the Jewish DefenseLeague (JDL), by far the most well known of these groups.Also in 1985, the FBI named the Jewish Defense League as the secondmost active terrorist group in the United States. (Only Puerto Ricanterrorists were more active during this period.) The FBI linked theJDL to 37 terrorist attacks carried out from 1977 to 1984. (note 56)

Two years later, the FBI announced that Jewish extremist groups hadcarried out 24 terrorist acts from 1981 through 1986, 17 of which werethe work of the Jewish Defense League. (note 57)

Another US federal government agency, the Department of Energy,similarly characterized the JDL in a report issued in 1986: (note 58)

For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been oneof the most active terrorist groups in the United States. Although theJDL maintains that it is a political action group concerned withdramatizing the plight of Soviet Jewry and, in more general terms,protecting Jews and Jewish interests worldwide, the FBI has longclassified it as a terrorist organization.

...The underlying purpose of the JDL is to reverse the mythical imageof the Jews as victims. This militancy also fuels the anti-Sovietcampaign designed to create and foment new sources of tension inSoviet-American relations ...

The JDL, however, has also attacked Arab, Iranian, Iraqi, Egyptian,Palestinian, Lebanese, French, and German targets in the United States... In 1978 [for example], Egyptian diplomats were targeted...Attackshave also been staged by League chapters in France, Britain, Italy andIsrael.

In more recent years, the official report went on,The JDL has pursued a dual-track strategy of acts of civildisobedience and generally peaceful protest, along with acts ofoutright terrorism...Bombing is the JDL's favorite tactic, accountingfor 78 percent of all JDL incidents. Shootings are next, accountingfor 16 percent, followed by arson, vandalism, and kidnaping,accounting for one percent each ...

Since 1968, JDL operations have killed seven persons and wounded atleast 22...Sixty-two percent of all JDL attacks are directed againstproperty; 30 percent against businesses; four percent againstacademics and academic institutions; and two percent against religioustargets.

Typically, an anonymous caller will claim responsibility for aspecific terrorist act for either the JDL or one of its allegedsubgroups, only to have an official spokesman for the JDL deny thegroup's involvement the following day.

In the past, although the JDL was among the most active terroristorganizations in the United States, the threat it posed appeared to beprimarily symbolic...Recent events, however, suggest that this viewrequires revision. The increase of militant Jewish terrorismrepresents not only an escalation of violence, but a significantchange in targeting patterns, as well as a dramatic shift in tactics.

...The group appears to be concentrating its efforts on persons andinstitutions it considers to be enemies of Judaism and Israel. Thetargets now [1986] include alleged former Nazis and war criminals;Palestinian and Arab individuals and institutions; and persons andso-called research centers promoting views about the Holocaust thatminimize the dimensions of Jewish suffering.

Perhaps the most far-reaching change, however, is the increasing useof assassination, both to draw attention to the terrorists' causes andto eliminate perceived enemies of the Jewish people and Israel.Mordechai Levy and the Jewish Defense OrganizationBesides Kahane, two of the most prominent JDL activists have been IrvRubin and Mordechai Levy. Each has been repeatedly arrested forcriminal activities.

Until 1982 or 1983, Mordechai (Mark) Levy was one of the most activeof Jewish Defense League activists. (note 59) Among his numerousarrests was one in 1981 as a suspect in a car bombing. (note 60) Onone occasion he dressed up in a full regalia Nazi uniform to apply fora parade permit to march at Independence Hall in Philadelphia,apparently in an effort to alert the local Jewish community to the"dangers of neo-Nazism." (note 61)

After leaving the JDL (supposedly because it was not "militantenough") he founded the Jewish Defense Organization. He claimed thathis group, based in New York City, had more than 3,000 members. (Thereal figure was probably no more than a few dozen.) In the years thatfollowed, Levy and rival Zionist militant Irv Rubin engaged inincreasingly bitter feuding.

In August 1989, Levy was arrested following a dramatic night-timeconfrontation with Rubin and other JDL members. Fearing that Rubin wastrying to kill him, Levy went to the roof of the building where helived and began spraying the lower Manhattan street with semiautomaticrifle fire, wounding an air-conditioning repairman as he sat in hisparked van. (note 62) Levy was later sentenced to four and a halfyears imprisonment for injuring the 69-year-old repairman. (note 63)

On April 22, 1993, Jewish Defense Organization members attackeddemonstrators who had gathered in Washington, DC, to protest the USHolocaust Memorial Museum. At least one person was seriously injured.A JDO spokesman told reporters that several members of his group hadattacked and beat "four or five" of the 150 or so persons who hadrallied to express their opposition to the Museum. (note 64)

One of the victims was David Willcox, a 52-year-old employee of theWashington Suburban Sanitary Commission. He was standing on a streetcorner when three men wearing black "paramilitary" uniforms and skullcaps with the Star of David attacked, beating him on the head and legswith metal pipes. Willcox required hospitalization and 12 stitches inhis head.

Two JDO members later confirmed the attack against Willcox. JDOspokesman Michael Schneider told a reporter that his group wouldcontinue to do "whatever is necessary " to "defend" Jews, includingattacking "enemies" in the street. The FBI said that it isinvestigating the attack against Willcox as a possible act of"domestic terrorism," while city police announced that they werelooking into the incident as a possible "hate crime." (As we go topress, though, no arrests have been made.)

Irv Rubin

Since the early 1970s, Irv Rubin has been perhaps the most prominentJewish Defense League activist and spokesman. After a time as leaderof the group's JDL's West coast operations, he emerged as "nationalchairman" of the post-Kahane JDL. By 1979, Rubin had managed to getarrested 39 times in connection with JDL activities. (note 65)

In March 1992, Irv Rubin was arrested on suspicion of conspiring tocommit murder. He was released a few days later after the Los Angelesdistrict attorney's office determined that police lacked sufficientevidence to hold him. (note 66)

In August 1992, Rubin's JDL succeeded in forcing a Los Angelesrestaurant and nightclub, the Largo, to cancel a concert on behalf ofthe Palestine Aid Society, to raise money for humanitarian assistance.Rubin warned Largo proprietor Mark Flanagan that he could "expecttrouble" and an "angry protest" unless he cancelled the event. Soonafter, Flanagan discovered that his business' door locks had beendestroyed by still-dripping fast-acting molecular glue. Then, justhours before the event was to begin, Flanagan canceled the concert outof fear that patrons might be victims of a possible JDL attack. (note67)

Violence Against Holocaust Revisionists

Among the most persistent targets of Jewish terrorists in recent yearshave been those who reject the generally accepted Holocaust story thatsix million Jews were systematically murdered in Europe during theSecond World War.

In recent decades, a growing number of scholars have been citing animpressive body of evidence that raises serious doubts about manysupposedly well-documented aspects of the Holocaust story. These"Holocaust revisionists" include acclaimed best-selling Britishhistorian David Irving, French professor Dr. Robert Faurisson and Dr.Arthur Butz of Northwestern University. (For more about Holocaustrevisionism and the arguments of revisionist historians, write for acatalog of books, tapes and other material from the Institute forHistorical Review.)

George Ashley, a high school history teacher and supporter of the IHR,has been the target of several terrorist attacks because of hisrevisionist views. In April 1982, two bricks were hurled through thefront window of his suburban Los Angeles home. One month later, twogasoline fire bombs were thrown against the front of his house, and inDecember of 1982, JDL criminals ransacked Ashley's home, causing anestimated $26,000 in damage. (note 68) Mordechai Levy later boasted:"We warned him [Ashley] that if he continued his activity, he wouldpay a consequence...We warned that if the school board does not stopAshley, we would stop him." (note 69) In July 1984, Ashley receivedrepeated telephone calls from someone who threatened to bomb his home.A JDL member identified by police from tape-recordings of the threatswas later arrested. (note 70) In August 1984, JDL member Michael S.Canale was arrested on suspicion of making a bomb threat againstGeorge Ashley. (note 71)

In May 1985, Ashley's home was the target of a another bomb attack, inwhich no one was hurt. The letters "JDL" were spray-painted on thewalkway leading to Ashley's front door. (note 72) This attack wascited in a January 1986 federal government report: (note 73) Thefollowing month [May 1985], the JDL claimed credit for bombing thehouse of George Ashley, Los Angeles-area high school teacher who hadtold students that the number of Jews killed by the Nazis during WorldWar II was considerably less than the commonly accepted figure of sixmillion, and that not more than a million Jews perished during thewar. Dr. Charles Weber, a contributor to the IHR's Journal ofHistorical Review, had his car vandalized in two separate incidentsduring the month of April 1985. A note from the JDL, which threatenedto escalate the attacks into a bombing, was left behind in the secondincident. (note 74) Dr. Reinhard K. Buchner, a professor of physics atCalifornia State University, Long Beach, and a member of the IHREditorial Advisory Committee (1980-1983), was the victim of repeatedJDL harassment in 1981, 1982 and early 1983. He was spat upon,physically attacked, threatened by phone, and harassed at his officeand home. (note 75) German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zï¿½ndel, aprominent revisionist activist, has been repeatedly attacked by theJewish Defense League. In December 1983, JDL thugs beat him on thesteps of Toronto's Old City Hall. The JDL carried out another attackagainst him on February 6, 1984. In September 1984, Zï¿½ndel's home inToronto was damaged in a pipe-bomb attack. A group calling itself "ThePeople's Liberation Army of the Jewish Defense League" claimedresponsibility in a phone call to a local television station. InJanuary 1985, a JDL mob attacked Zï¿½ndel, his attorney Doug Christieand Christie's female legal secretary at the entrance to a Torontocourthouse.

The office of a German-American group was set on fire in 1985,apparently because of the organization's skepticism about Holocaustclaims. According to a report on terrorism issued in January 1986 bythe federal Department of Energy, in June 1985 (note 76), an anonymouscaller stated that the JDL had intentionally set fire to the officesof the German-American Political Action Committee in Santa Monica,California. The German-American group probably incurred the JDL'swrath by its advocacy of the view that "Jews were not gassed by theNazis...[and that] numbers and reports of predetermined exterminationare greatly exaggerated by professional liars."

Target: Institute for Historical Review

Since its founding in 1978, the Institute for Historical Review hasbeen the leading American publisher of books and other materialsquestioning the Holocaust extermination story. For this reason, itsoffice in southern California, as well as individual IHR employees,soon became targets of a systematic campaign that included a drive-byshooting, three firebombings, vandalization of IHR employee-ownedautomobiles, slashings of 22 tires of employee automobiles,JDL-organized demonstrations outside the IHR office, and numeroustelephone threats during office hours and at night to IHR employees athome. So intense did the harassment become that the family of one IHRemployee was forced to move. (note 77)

During the course of a JDL demonstration in front of the IHR office onMarch 19, 1981, Mordechai Levy and other JDL protesters attacked thecar of the landlord's agent, who had arrived to ensure security. Whileshouting threats, Levy smashed the right front passenger window of theman's car as he drove off. (note 78)

A few weeks later, on April 5, 1981, JDL hoodlums staged anotherviolent demonstration outside the IHR office, during which an IHRemployee was thrown to the ground and beaten.

In the early morning hours of June 25, 1981, came the firstfirebombing attack against the IHR office. Fortunately, the arsondevice-similar to a "Molotov cocktail"-caused only minor damage. A manclaiming to represent the "Jewish Defenders" announced responsibilityfor the attack in phone calls to news agencies. (note 79)

The second arson attack against the IHR office came on April 25, 1982,in which a copy machine, a few pieces of furniture and some recordswere damaged. In a telephone message to a local news agency, a groupcalling itself "the Jewish Defenders" claimed responsibility. (note80)

In an attack on September 5, 1982, the IHR office was riddled withgunfire, demolishing two windows and damaging the front door.Additionally, a small arson device caused some slight damage to thefront of the office. Later that day, as throughout the week, came abarrage of murder-threatening telephone calls. Although the caller'svoice was identified as that of Mordechai Levy, typically, no one wasarrested in the case. (note 81)

Fire-Bombing Arson Attack

This terror campaign culminated in a devastating arson attack on theInstitute's offices and warehouse in Torrance on July 4, 1984 -- the209th anniversary of American independence. Damage in the attack,carried out in the early morning hours of the 4th, was estimated at$400,000. (note 82)

In a special edition of the IHR Newsletter (August 1984), IHR DirectorJ. Marcellus summed up:

As a physical entity, the Institute for Historical Review hasvirtually ceased to exist. Ninety percent of our book and tapeinventory-the largest collection of revisionist historical literatureto be found anywhere-has been wiped out. Every last piece of officeequipment and machinery-including desks, chairs, files and shelves-layin charred heaps of useless, twisted scrap. Manuscripts, documents,artwork, galleys and film negatives-products of more than six longyears of a tough, dedicated effort to bring suppressed historical datato people the world over-no longer exist. Tens of thousands ofbooks...estimated at over $300,000 in value, are gone...More than2,500 square feet of space that was once the world's mostcontroversial publisher lies blackened in chaos and total ruin.Two days later, JDL leader Irv Rubin showed up at the site of thegutted IHR offices to publicly praise the arson attack. The JDL, hedeclared, "wholeheartedly applauds the recent devastation of theoffices of the Institute for Historical Review." Denying any personalresponsibility himself, Rubin said that the criminal attack had beencarried out by a former JDL activist named Larry Winston (Joel Cohen)."I believe, with all my heart, that he [Winston/Cohen] had somethingto do with this" arson, Rubin declared. (note 83)Although no one was ever arrested in connection with the 1984firebombing, the sophisticated nature of the attack suggests that itcould have been the work of trained operatives of a foreigngovernmental agency.

Apart from local news coverage, American newspapers and televisionreported almost nothing about this act of criminal "book burning."This skewed media treatment moved noted journalist Alexander Cockburnto observe (in the pages of the liberal weekly The Nation): (note 84)The outfit in the United States that does publish material belittlinggenerally accepted accounts of the Nazi extermination of the Jews iscalled the Institute for Historical Review. I don't recall much fusswhen its offices in Torrance, California, were firebombed in July1984. Perhaps this is what Mailer meant by "sophistication" inhandling such heterodox opinion.

At the same time, though, a few prominent voices courageously spokeout against the attack. American historian John Toland-who receivedthe Pulitzer prize for general non-fiction in 1971 for his book TheRising Sun -- wrote to the IHR: (note 85)

When I learned of the torching of the office-warehouse of theInstitute for Historical Review, I was shocked. And when I heard nocondemnation of this act of terrorism on television and read noprotests in the editorial pages of our leading newspapers or from thehalls of Academe, I was dismayed and incensed...I call on all truebelievers in democracy to join me in public denunciation of the recentburning of books in Torrance, California.

British historian David Irving, author of numerous acclaimed,best-selling works of history, declared: "I was deeply shocked to hearof the fire-bomb attack on your premises."

JDL Harassment of IHR Conference

In mid-February 1989, Jewish Defense League intimidation brought onthe cancellation of a three-day Institute for Historical Reviewconference at two hotel sites in southern California.Arrangements had been made months in advance to hold the Ninth IHRConference at the Red Lion Inn hotel in Costa Mesa. Several daysbefore it was to begin, the hotel received the first of a barrage oftelephone threats warning that if it permitted the IHR gathering totake place as scheduled, there would be large, disruptivedemonstrations in front of the hotel. It didn't take many such threatsto persuade general manager Russell Cox to cave in to the Zionistgroup, and to cancel the hotel's contract with the IHR. Cox then addedinsult to injury by permitting JDL chief Rubin to hold a "newsconference" in the hotel lobby.

Arrangements were then hastily made to relocate the IHR gathering to anearby Holiday Inn hotel. However, just hours before it was tocommence- and as attendees were arriving-the Holiday Inn likewisecancelled out, bowing to JDL threats similar to those made against theRed Lion Inn.

At this point, and with help from former US Congressman John Schmitz,IHR Director J. Marcellus made emergency arrangements with JoeBischof, proprietor of the "Old World Village" shopping center inHuntington Beach, to hold the IHR Conference there. Bischof refused tobow to JDL intimidation, including a demonstration at the site by ahandful of sorry-looking placard-waving JDLers led by Rubin, whoshouted insults at passersby. In spite of the disruption, and someinconvenience for attendees, the Ninth IHR Conference proved one ofthe most successful and high-spirited ever. (note 86)

JDL Thugs Attack Young Jewish Revisionist

On January 22, 1992, revisionist activist David Cole was attacked byJDL thugs at a meeting held at the University of California at LosAngeles. Before the meeting began, JDL leader Rubin first tried topush the youthful Cole down a flight of stairs. JDL hoodlums alsoharassed and pushed around meeting organizer Robert Morrissey. Afterthe meeting commenced, JDL punks tried to shout down the speakers, andthen threw food at Cole. Finally, a JDL thug assaulted Cole-who isJewish-hitting him in the face and bloodying his nose. (note 87)The tumult was recorded on videotape by a camera crew of the CBStelevision news program "48 Hours," as well as by news crews of twolocal Los Angeles television stations. Neither of the two localstations mentioned a word of the incident in their nightly newsbroadcasts. Similarly, CBS officials decided not to air even a secondof this outburst, not even in a segment about Holocaust revisionismthat was part of the CBS television network's hour-longmagazine-format program "48 Hours" broadcast of February 26, 1992.Network officials apparently decided that scenes of Zionist hoodlumsbeating a young Jewish revisionist would not "fit" with the image ofrevisionism that CBS wanted to project to its many viewers. (note 88)

Violence in EuropeThe Murder of Franï¿½ois Duprat

In France, Franï¿½ois Duprat-a gifted young historian, educator, andprolific writer-was murdered in 1978, thereby becoming the firstperson to be killed because of his support for Holocaust revisionism.Duprat had publicized the writings of former concentration camp inmatePaul Rassinier, distributed a booklet, Did Six Million Really Die?,and had published a revisionist article of his own, "The Mystery ofthe Gas Chambers." (note 89)

As a result of such activism, the 38-year-old teacher was assassinatedon March 18, 1978, when the car he was driving was blown up in a bombblast. His wife, who was with him, lost the use of her legs in theattack. A Jewish "Remembrance Commando" and a "Jewish RevolutionaryGroup" promptly claimed responsibility for the murder. (note 90) Sosophisticated was the attack that it is difficult to believe that nogovernment agency was involved.

The Israel Connection

It is no secret that Israel provides training and weapons for local"Jewish defense groups" in the United States and many other countries.Victor Ostrovsky, a former intelligence case officer of the Mossad,Israel's spy and secret service agency, confirms this connection inhis much-discussed book, By Way of Deception. (note 91) One departmentof the Mossad, writes Ostrovsky, is the Tsafririm, which isresponsible for setting up Jewish defense groups, called "frames," ormisgerot, all over the world, now including some parts of the UnitedStates, where anti-Semitism is regarded as a threat ... The main jobis to help the leaders of Jewish communities outside Israel plan fortheir own security. Part of this is done through the hets va-keshet,or "bow and arrow," Israel's paramilitary youth brigades.

... Often youths from other countries are brought over [to Israel] tospend the summer learning about security, picking up such skills ascompleting obstacle courses, pitching tents, and learning how to use asniper rifle and Uzi assault rifle. Still others learn upgradedsecurity skills, such as how to build a slick, for hiding weapons ordocuments, when and how to do security checks, as well as fundamentalsof investigation and intelligence gathering.Israel provides weapons for the many "Jewish defense groups," confirmsOstrovsky, indirectly through known arms dealers.

Tagar/Betar

In Europe the most important Zionist terrorist group is Tagar, theyouth (or "student") branch of the radical Zionist movement Betar. TheTagar/Betar group has carried out numerous criminal attacks against"enemies," including Holocaust revisionists. Headquartered in Paris,Tagar/Betar has close ties with the Israeli government, andparticularly with the political party of Begin and Shamir. Tagar isreportedly controlled by Israel's covert operations agency, theMossad. (note 92)

Tagar activists have often boasted of their determination to "strike"against anyone who "denies the Holocaust." Tagar admittedresponsibility for a physical assault against French revisionisthistorian Olivier Mathieu during a television interview in February1990. Three months later, Tagar thugs sacked the "Ogmios" bookstore inParis (which carried revisionist titles).

Tagar/Betar activists receive combat training along military linesfrom Israeli army officers. Tagar members wear paramilitary blueuniforms with white ties (the Zionist colors). Tagar/Betar hasoperated in Europe with the knowledge and approval of high Frenchofficials such as Prime Minister Laurent Fabius (who is Jewish). Inmore than one Tagar/Betar attack against opponents, French police havepassively stood by. (note 93)

Tagar activists have operated in France under other names, including"Jewish Defense Organization" and "Jewish Combat Organization."Private para-military groups are strictly forbidden in France, exceptJewish ones. Between June 1976 and April 1991, such Jewish "militias"have carried out 50 attacks. In effect, Jewish terrorists in Europecan attack their "enemies" with impunity. (note 94)

Tagar has also been active in the United States. In February 1992, the"Tagar Student Zionist Organization at the Ohio State University" inColumbus organized a protest meeting against Holocaust revisionism.The group distributed a leaflet-which, typically, contained factualfalsehoods-specifically attacking revisionist activist Bradley Smith.(note 95)

Robert Faurisson

Dr. Robert Faurisson-Europe's most prominent Holocaust revisionist(and a member of the Editorial Advisory Committee of the IHR's Journalof Historical Review) -- was severely injured in a nearly fatal attackon September 16, 1989. (note 96)

After spraying a stinging gas into his face, temporarily blinding him,three assailants punched him to the ground and then repeatedly kickedhim in the face and chest. The 60-year-old scholar, who had been outwalking his poodle in a park in his home town of Vichy, suffered abroken jaw and severe head injuries. Physicians operated for four anda half hours to repair his jaw and treat a broken rib and badlyswollen face.

A group calling itself "The Sons of the Memory of the Jews" claimedresponsibility for the savage attack. In a statement, the groupthreatened:

"Professor Faurisson is the first, but will not be the last. Let thosewho deny the Shoah [Holocaust] beware." (note 97) While French policeofficially would acknowledge only that "three young Jewish activistsfrom Paris" had carried out the assault, the attackers are stronglysuspected to have been with the Tagar/Betar organization. (note 98)Prominent individuals and organizations in France, along with thecountry's most influential daily newspaper, Le Monde, condemned theattack. However, French-Jewish "Nazi hunter" Serge Klarsfeld sought toexcuse or justify the crime. "Someone who has provoked the Jewishcommunity for years should expect this sort of thing," he said. "Onecannot insult the memory of the victims without inviting theconsequences." (note 99)

While the September 1989 attack against Faurisson was the mostvicious, it was neither the first nor the last. Between November 1978and May 1993, he was attacked on ten separate occasions. (note 100)

Other Terrorist Incidents in Europe

On November 5, 1980, an arson attack destroyed the office, warehouseand printing plant in Sussex, southern England, of the firm thatprints Did Six Million Really Die? and other revisionist publicationsof the Historical Review Press. Damage was estimated at 50,000 pounds.A leftist journalist, Manny Carpel, was found guilty of the crime, andsentenced to two and a half years imprisonment. (He served only alittle more than a year.) In January 1984, in Cologne, Germany,Professor Hermann Greive, a non-Jewish authority on Jewish religiouswritings, was shot to death by a member of Kahane's Kach group. Themurder was reportedly carried out in keeping with a Jewish scripturalinjunction that demands death for non-Jews who "pry" into Jewishreligious writings. (note 101)

On February 10, 1988, terrorists set fire to the automobile of Germanhistorian Ernst Nolte while it was parked at the Free University inBerlin, where he was a professor. An anonymous letter, signed with afive-pointed star, declared: "We attack Nolte because he is one ofthose who personally represents the continuity of fascism" and asco-founder of a "reactionary" group called the "Academic FreedomLeague." Nolte had been widely criticized for his moderatelyrevisionist views of Second World War history. (note 102)

On April 20, 1991, Betar/Tagar thugs carried out a violent attackagainst several persons who were to attend a conference in Paris onthe French writer Marc Augier. (Under the pen name of Saint-Loup,Augier wrote a series of books on the French "Legion of Volunteers,"which fought on the eastern front during the Second World War.) Threeor four of the victims were hospitalized. One, a 67-year-old woman,was in a coma for two months. Two Tagar members were arrested inconnection with the attack, but two and a half years later they hadstill not been brought to trial. (note 103) A bookstore in Paris hadto be shut down for good in 1992 after repeated violent attacks byJewish militants. The bookstore was targeted because it soldrevisionist titles and was operated by revisionist publisher PierreGuillaume.

On October 19, 1992, a team of about 30 Betar activists shoved andinsulted pedestrians, smashed automobiles, and threw tear gas atpolice in the central plaza of the German city of Rostock. The groupwas led by the "Nazi-hunting" (and anti-revisionist) husband-wife teamof Serge and Beate Klarsfeld. The Betar activists, some of themcarrying Israeli flags, insulted passersby with shouts of "DirtyGermans! Dirty Nazis!". (note 104) In December 1992, the chief of theJewish Defense League in Israel announced that he was sending teams ofkillers to Germany to murder "neo-Nazis." Every German who cries "HeilHitler," or otherwise identifies himself as a Nazi, declared33-year-old Rabbi Baruch Ben-Joseph (Baruch Green), is a target fordeath. (note 105) Prominent German far-right political figures are notthe only persons on the Israel JDL's hit list, confided one JDLmember: "Persons behind the scenes are often more important, such asthe professor who denies or whitewashes the Holocaust in a book."(note 106)

Conclusion

As this report shows, non-governmental Zionist terrorism has been aproblem for more than twenty years. It remains a serious problemtoday.

Espousing Jewish supremacy, the Zionist terrornetwork operatesinternationally, linking Israel, Europe and the United States. Inaddition to the suffering and destruction resulting directly from itsmany crimes, the network's campaign of bigotry fosters a dangerousclimate of hate and intolerance. Through intimidation, threat andviolence, Jewish-Zionist terrorists have succeeded in silencingnumerous voices. Many others have never spoken up out of fear thatthey might likewise become victims.

Particularly alarming is the important support provided to thesecriminal groups by the government of Israel. This officialcollaboration poses a threat not only to the freedom and security ofindividuals in many countries, but to the very freedom and sovereigntyof nations.

At the same time, though, the danger should not be exaggerated.Zionist power is formidable but not limitless.For one thing, Jewish militants are often so inept and mutuallysuspicious that they squander much of their energy on attacks againsteach other. (note 107)

Moreover, the number of individuals and organizations that Zionistmilitants perceive as "anti-Semitic enemies" has increased sodramatically in recent years that any one person or group is lesslikely to be singled out for attack. (Even the much-feared"anti-Semite" epithet has lost much of its impact. In 1991, an Israeligovernment cabinet minister denounced President George Bush as"anti-Semitic" because he wasn't acting quickly enough in approving a$10 billion loan guarantee to Israel.)"

Last night, I went to watch "My Name is Khan". A lot has been saidabout the movie by many parties, and it is best to see things foryourself to make a sound judgment than to trash it or eulogize it byhearsay.

First lets get the assessment of the movie related stuff out. Story-wise and innovativeness wise it was a bummer. Shah Rukh was copyingDustin Hoffman to the hilt. The story had a strong flavor of RainMan, of how Dustin Hoffman (Raymond) and Tom Cruise (Charlie) goaround the country and the sort of experiences they have. The partson how SRK goes to the small Georgian town of Wilhimena after thehurricane was over dramatized and also the part on Obama. It wasn'tsuch an intelligent plot and in the end pretty melodramatic.Compared to "3 Idiots", it was really mediocre.. and honestly therewere many weaknesses in "3 Idiots" itself.

Now, what was disturbing was not its mediocrity but three things:Stereotypes, Exaggeration andContext. Lets talk about these aspectsof the movie.

Stereotypes

What was really sad about this movie was that it was made ostensiblyto disparage Stereotypes ("My name is Khan and I am not aTerrorist"), and yet it tried to do that by RE-INFORCING stereotypesfor everyone else (Non-Muslims) in an attempt to bring home itsmessage. It was almost as if one wanted to appear Holy by throwingmud at the others so one could look cleaner in comparison!

White people, overwhelmingly, were shown to be heartless or racial.Black people were supposed to be dumb and poor, and therefore, nice. Muslims, were shown to be besieged everywhere -- whether its India orUS, and therefore retaliating. Law enforcement officials in the USwere shown, as a generality, to be without any humanity or notfollowing any rule of law.. and above all, threatening.

I will speak to these in detail, but one small piece -- which wasspecific and bad case of mis-information and lack of credibleresearch into this movie was Rizwan's (SRK) experience in the jail!The torture of sleeplessness and other things (change oftemperatures, lack of access to information, unusable toilet seats)are NOT from the US jail system (however bad it may be), but fromGuantanamo Bay prisons. Yes, the torture in Guantanamo has happenedand it is disturbing, but to suggest that every Muslim, despite hisor her medical condition, who goes to a US Jail, is subjected to suchtorture as a regular means of treatment is farcical, verymischievious and plays right in to the hands of the Jihadipropaganda.

Now about the stereotypes that this movie promoted.

White people

Lets be clear. White man is generally taken to be a proxy of the"West". So, when one talks of stereotypes of Whites or of the West,the world talks of basically synonyms. Unfortunately, that is thetruth behind the scenes. Hence, I wanted to get that pretense of theholier-than-thou liberals out of the way! When you are showing astereotype about Whites, you are basically trying to make a statementon the West.

So, from the boys who killed Sam, to the people who threaten the shopkeepers to the law enforcement agencies..... it seems White peopleare incarnations of devil and somehow highly insensitive! Andagainst their normal grain, they turn "human" only when they areclose to you as friends but change when they face any tough situation(Reese abetted killing of Sam because of his anger). Somehow, it isalways a matter of celebration and something out of usual, if they"act nicely" to you. If you listen to the Jihadi talk and read theirpropaganda, this is precisely what they are always trying to portrayabout the white man and the West!! MNIK's portrayal of the White Man(and West by proxy) is a page out of Jihadi propaganda book and NOTbased on a liberal and secular sensibilities!

I have spoken on my blog against how Avatar shows as if unless Whiteman helps people of some other planet, even those tribes won't doanything worthwhile (reinforcing the "White Man's burden"construct!). So, stereotypes are perpetuated in both ways. Andtrying to portray the other extreme because Hollywood portrays one isvery self-defeating indeed..

Black People, whenever shown, are shown as "victims", "stupid" and"downtrodden" who are nice to talk to simply because of their "subtlyprojected" lower economic condition and IQ. Its the romantic(socialist ideology driven primarily) notion that many times RajKapoor showed of the poor slum dwellers vs Rich men in his movies.Bollywood movies have many times been down this road of showing poormen with humanity and rich men as heartless as a stereotype, which isa completely Socialist and Communist construct. Not all poor anddowntrodden are nice and not all rich and privileged are inhuman.And since, in the US, only blacks happen to be embodiment of povertyand downtrodden and White men as the rich abettors of crime in thepopular folk-lore perpetuated around the world, especially so in theJehadi narratives, that's what somehow creeps into this movie aswell.

Muslims

Muslims are somehow shown as besieged every where. They are victimsincarnate. Whether it is the narrative after the riots or in thespeech of the extremist in the mosque (which was not the point Rizwancounters, rather he clarifies a theological point of sacrifice of hisson's blood by Ishmael). Even in school its the same narrative as itis in businesses.

Now, I have lived through the years since 9-11 in the US. I havebeen working with Muslims and also seen the businesses in Houston,the most conservative of cities as they come in the US. No otherbusinesses have prospered as much as those of people who worked hardand had the right idea. There are Pakistani women and men who havegrown exponentially and from a strictly desi clientele gotten astrong American clients on their roster of customers. Yes, and I amtalking of Salons more than any other businesses.. IN HOUSTON!! So,if I were to talk of California, the most liberal state in the US andSan Francisco, one of the decidedly most liberal of cities in thatstate, then the narrative of Mandira's salon going out of businessbecause of her Khan last name is nothing but a cruel caricature! Itis so misinformed and misinformingthat it could have easily beenwritten by the likes of Zaid Hamid and Hamid Gul than by a wellinformed Secularist or Humanist Muslim.

To epitomize Muslims as Victims is a strong Jehadi need andimperative. If you understand the historic narrative of Islam, youwill realize that Victimization has been very deeply stitched intoits fabric. And with the narrative of Victimization has come closelythe narrative of "fighting back" and killing the other. In Quran,however, the narrative of Victimization is defined from thestandpoint of Belief (in the 3 main tenets of Islam -- Day ofJudgment, Belief in Allah, and following Muhammad's example) andretaliation is to Non-Belief (or Kufr).

Victimization as a central precept has been the most effective way ofcreating converts to any cause, with a apparently egalitarian agendabut, which in reality, turns out to be an extremist agenda.Communism is another great example of that.

There can never be an equality of human experiences, and it cannot beenforced by any means ever. What is there however, scientificallyand spiritually, is the equality of existence itself. This equalitycannot be enforced but can be experienced.

The issue is that those who have set out to take their followers tothe "promised land of equality" have turned them into extremists whofight the world which lives and revels in its diversity.

Enforcing Equality NECESSARILY leads to Suppression of Diversity.

It is no wonder therefore, that in the societies and the groups whereenforcement (not exploration) of Equality is the Central precept,expression of desent is highest evil! Whether it is Islamicsocieties or the Communist societies, heretical expression isreserved the highest punishment.

It is in this context of the "Three Narratives", as I call them, thatthe depiction of Victimization should be viewed. The ThreeNarratives are:

Narrative # 1: Explicitly desire that you want to push your ideologyon the other guy and that the other guy should swear by your ideologyas the ONLY "Truth" and that such a desire is an order of your god.Any action that bars you from carrying out such an action issufficient and legitimate proof of "Victimization".

Narrative #2: That, if you are "Victimized", you have enough andsufficient justification to Kill the "perpetrator" -- the guy whowanted to NOT go by your desires of swearing by your ideology andbowing to your god.

Narrative #3: The ideology is not "Anti-Peace" or against humanity asthe Narrative #2 may suggest. Killing, after all, is only aspecialized punishment for those who "Harm" or "Victimize" you.Otherwise, its all "good".

If you look Sura 2 from verse 191 through 192, the entire argumentfor the three narratives is clearly and unequivocally established.

It is clear if one were to look closely, that Victimization as anarrative is the CENTRAL argument that abets Terrorism, also calledJihad. I know that there are diferent "types" of Jihad listed in thebook, but until now, I have not seen anyone practising them nordiscussing them as an anti-dote to violence and way to peace in theworld, specially in a dialog with the extremists. So, let's go bywhat is being practised and not what exists merely in arguments.

Exaggeration

This was the most mischievious of the entire story line. Yes,attacks happened on Sikhs and on Muslims in the US post 9-11, butthey were by NO MEANS or stretch of imagination, a trend! I was notfollowing all the attacks, but if I would have to hazard a guess notmore than maybe couple of dozen attacks may have occured on theMuslim families and individuals due to religious intolerance. I knowa few Sikhs also got killed, but even those attacks were less thanhalf a dozen in the last 10 years.

I don't know of ANY incident where school kids would have targetedthe Muslim kids in a way to kill them or subject violence on them.My daughter and those of my friends also go to schools in Texas,which as I said before, is as conservative as any state in the US canget. And these kids have Muslims, indeed my daughter had a PakistaniMuslim in her class. I have asked her about him and what other kidsthink of him. There is nothing different that they think of him thanher or other friends of a different enthnicity.

I have seen quite a few countries and interacted with people of stillmany more countries, even those I have not visited. And I can saycategorically that US and Canada are perhaps the MOST tolerantcountries on the face the earth right now. The crimes ofdiscrimination get so much coverage because these societies acceptand encourage dissent and justice. The plight of minorities in say,Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or even Malaysia (the most progressive ofIslamic nations) can only be imagined.

And that is what makes this attempt in MNIK, if it was to talk aboutHUMANITY and not forward the Muslim agenda per se, seem even moredisingenuous. Which leads me to the next category of my assessment -the Context of the movie.

Context

Throughout the movie, I was trying to understand -- who was the targetaudience of the message?

Because there seemed to be many.

In your face was thrown that it was the Non-Muslim world at large,which was, for no particular reason, mis-understanding the Muslims,and therefore indulging in a monumental injustice to the "Humanity atlarge". The misunderstanding of the Muslims was not just aPerception issue but a Injustice to Humanity issue.

Let me take an example. Rizwan goes to a motel of a Gujarati Hindu -Jitesh-bhai. While they are talking, some white man (again a whitemind you!) came and threw stone at his window and drove away. Inanger, Jitesh-bhai, who has been having such attacks, because a"silly white American" cannot tell the difference between a Hindu anda Muslim, starts to shout how he hates the Muslims for having broughtsuch attacks on him even though he has nothing to with Jihad orIslam. In fact, he might consider his own to be at the receiving endof the same Jihadis back home!!

Now, this is shown as his injustice against humanity or at least asinsensitivity. Now, if one were to look at it purely the standpointof an Indian Muslim, he might think it was bad. But think of it fromthe standpoint of a Hindu Businessman, who understands perfectly wellthat here he is targeted as a proxy for being Muslim, and in Indiathe Pakistani and Pakistan-trained Indian Mujahideen target hiskith/kin because he is NOT Muslim!

Don't you think his plight is even worse?

In some cases, the context was also to educate the Muslims, speciallythe scene in the Mosque where the discussion on Ishmael story takesplace and in a scene where Rizwan refers to the verse which says that"killing one innocent* is like killing humanity" (* What is aninnocent from a theological standpoint as it isbelieved/progagated/interpreted in many Mullahs can be viewed in thevideos below.)

It is very clear in the eyes of these people and others who followthem that equal rights are only reserved for Muslims. These guysspeak up which many believe in because of their interpretations.

By the way the verse that Rizwan cites is not as unequivocal forpeace promotion as it is made out to be.

The story was of two brothers, son of Adam, where one brother murdersthe other and the one who dies, accepts death. The son of Adam, whois the murderer of his own brother is then sent, by Allah, a raven(crow) who digs the ground to show how the murderer could hide hisbrother's corpse and cover him up. This brother then becomesrepentent of what he had done. (link to all verses in this Sura)

Then comes this verse, where it is said in context of the Children ofIsrael or the Adam. However, this verse does NOT come withoutconditions. Even though, killing any one from their own tribe/familywill be like killing the entire tribe, it can still be done if it isbelieved:

(i) the other person murdered someone(ii) spreading mischief in the land

Now, look at the video from Dr. Zakir Naik above to understand whathe is saying about the non-believers in Saudi Arabia. Non believers,according to Ulemas cannot be allowed to propagate their faith inMuslim lands, because that will create mischief. Now, one may betempted to ask the question, how does this logic change in the landwhere Muslims live.. but as a minority? Mischief has nothing to dowith the numbers. It has to do with the faith/belief of one's ownself and that of the other!

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YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israelthat if any one slew a person -- unless it be for murder or forspreading mischief in the land -- it would be as if he slew the wholepeople: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved thelife of the whole people. Then although there came to them Ourmessengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of themcontinued to commit excesses in the land.

PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israelthat whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter orcorruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind,and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved thelife of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clearproofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of thembecame prodigals in the earth.

SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children ofIsrael that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter orfor mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; andwhoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; andcertainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but evenafter that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

So, if Muslims were indeed the target audience, wouldn't it have beenbetter to analyze strains like Sufism?

Religious beliefs have NOTHING to do with God or Liberation. So, ifany one -- SRK or any other person -- says that he wanted to reinforcea certain religious context because he felt it took one to God, thenthat is patent nonsense!

Honest spiritual exploration is the only credible way to liberationof mankind from its limited belief systems and to a more largerwhole. Honestly, Quranic Islam is not necessarily equal toSpirituality. Sufism has tried to break away from it and in a lot ofcases the Sufis were forced to tow the traditionalist agenda simplybecause of the force and fear of death. Some did fight that but manydid not and served the agenda of the religious.

For example, Tansen and AR Rehman were Hindus by belief and on theirbrush with a "Sufi" converted. Now, Sufis are taken as Spiritualistsextraordinaire without argument. But anyone who even begins on aspiritual journey understands that conversion is a decidedlytribalistic agenda and has nothing to do with an Infiniteconsciousness known as God. A real spiritualist will never talk ofreligion or conversion. The very fact that these individuals wereconverted by so-called Sufis is more a comment on those "Sufis" thanon anyone else.

So, just as wearing saffron and calling one a Guru does not mean thatone is Enlightened, similarly wearing large hair locks and talkingSufi mumbo-jumbo does not mean that one is Enlightened. Therefore,one needs to explore honestly.

Mainstream Islam based on Hadith and Quran has issues, whether SRKand others may like one to believe or not is another question. Butthere is a major issue with regards to how it approaches the non-believers. Here are some verses in Quran that one would need todiscuss before we actually get to the peaceful verse that Rizwanutters.

It is a matter of concern for both the Believers and Non-believersthat such discussion is not undertaken.

So, wouldn't it have been better if one were to make a movie toexplore the spiritual questions by a Muslim and take on the religionitself? Taking on of religion by the spiritual has been done manytimes fruitfully -- J. Krishnamurti has done it, Buddha did it, Nanakdid it. It is a worthy exploration.

Reinforcing of religion can hardly be an attempt in the direction ofpeace of any durable nature.

In my considered view, if one is serious about humanity, from aHumanistic perspective, Islam (or any other religion) is notimportant. However, an honest and independent exploration of thespiritual will be of far greater value! Reinforcing the greatness ofany religion, as MNIK tries to do, is a meaningless exercise.

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educationalpurposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may nothave been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of theposter. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption forfair use of copyrighted works. o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, currente-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number. o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others arenot necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

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I left a flippant comment where I indicated my definitionof a "moderate" Muslim was also known as an "informant".It was partially in jest, but partially serious inremembering that, in fact, it was a Muslim informant whohelped UK law enforcement agencies foil the recent bigplot to destroy several airplanes using liquidexplosives. This kind of Muslim deserves recognition forhis actions, despite what he or she believes or espousesas a part of his private life.

I think most of the frustration we feel when we pine fora real, influential, "moderate" force in the Islamiccommunity, is a frustration in a lack of...

They're the one screaming "Death to extremists!! Beheadthe extremists!! May Allah punish all extremists!!"

;^)

3 Posted on 9/30/2006 by elcid1970

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Moderate Muslim; Cuts heads off with a sharp knife.Extreme Muslim; Cuts heads off with a dull knife.

4 Posted on 9/30/2006 by tobyhill (The War on Terrorism is not for the weak.)

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A moderate muzzie is one that has run out of ammo

5 Posted on 9/30/2006 by Robert Warren Linville (So proud of Free Republic that I use my real name)

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> Oxymoron

Or ignorance. A moderate muslim is one who is eitherignorant what Islam is all about, or in denial.

6 Posted on 9/30/2006 2:13:03 PM by Always Right

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How do they "moderate these commandments of muuuhamhead?(Pigs be inseminating her)

Quran-4:89 � Take not friends from their ranks until theyflee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades,seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and takeno friends or helpers from their ranks.

Sura 9:5 of the "Koranus," "Slay the idolaters whereveryou find them, and take them captives and besiege themand lie in wait for them in every ambush."

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures havebeen given as believe not in God." Sura 9:29

"Strike off their heads then, and strike off from themevery finger tip." - Sura 8:12

There is no moderation, either they submit to thekoranus, or they dont.

7 Posted on 9/30/2006 by rawcatslyentist (Never hurl the letter Q into a privet bush)

Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this -- primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).

Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non- Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.

To speak of a 'moderate Muslim' while ignoring reality ofthe Arab/Muslim history is a little short sighted, imo.

8 Posted on 9/30/2006 by the anti-liberal (OUR schools are damaging OUR children)

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The United States currently has foreign aid/militaryassistance agreements and treaties with 36 differentpredominately Muslim nations. Of the top 16 nationsreceiving foreign aid last year, 6 were Islamicrepublics: Egypt is number 2, Afghanistan is number 3,Pakistan is number 4, Sudan is number 6, Jordan is number7 and Indonesia is number 13. The foreign aid to thosesix Muslim nations alone dwarfs what we give to Israel,the number one foreign aid recipient.

Notice that the list above doesn't include other Muslimnations that we have strong trade and strategic ties tolike Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, andKuwait.

We are spending half a trillion dollars to nation buildin Iraq and Afghanistan.

There BETTER be "moderate Muslims!"

9 Posted on 9/30/2006 by jamese777

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Heh, heh!

Or else, a moderate hezziemuzzie is one who realizes hewill get his sh#& blown away if he threatens anyone.

10 Posted on 9/30/2006 by elcid1970

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Well, that fear would still make him more reality-oriented than the worst of the muslims. Letting in reasoncan do wonders for a fellow's longetivity. A moderateindeed!

11 Posted on 9/30/2006 by most

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a moderate (also read good) muslim is a dead muslim

12 Posted on 9/30/2006 by pipecorp ( Al Lahsuchs...Islam: nothing that a good crusade wouldn't fix ;; mercy is wasted on the merciless.)

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Moderate Muslims, like unicorns, elves and the toothfairy, are not endangered species, they never existed!

13 Posted on 9/30/2006 by backtothestreets

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> "A moderate indeed"

Touche. I shot down my own (sarcastic) argument. Someonewho would rather live than die, or who hopes to live tosee the triumphant outcome of his cause, is not yourtypical suicide bomber. Yeah, WHAT moderates?

I'll try again: a moderate Muslim is your local 7-11manager or falafel shop owner who quietly cheereddiscreetly with his fellow Muslims, as they watchedreruns of the collapse of the WTC towers.

):^(

14 Posted on 9/30/2006 by elcid1970

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I'll take "things that a unicorn would be surprised tosee exists" for $400, Alex.

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educationalpurposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may nothave been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of theposter. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption forfair use of copyrighted works. o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, currente-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number. o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others arenot necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use ofwhich may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyrightowner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance theunderstanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believedthat this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material asprovided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed withoutprofit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the includedinformation for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes bysubscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more informationgo to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtmlIf you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes ofyour own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from thecopyright owner.

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In article <4b8dd207$0$12457$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net>, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> posted: > > according to my break-away mommedan friend in houston who understands > mummudism very well, a terrorist muslim is one who cuts throat of kafir > while moderate muslim holds the feet of kafir down.

Primitive tribes offer sacrifices hoping to mollifywhatever nonexistent beings they believe in. New YorkTimes columnist Paul Krugman seems to belong to a verysophisticated tribe that, according to the recentlyretired Malaysian Prime Minister, rules the world byproxy. One would think Mr. Krugman should be above suchcrude superstitions. Nevertheless, in his column onOctober 21, he suggests that Secretary of DefenseRumsfeld should fire General Boykin in order to mollifymoderate Muslims.

General Boykin, the leading anti-terror expert at thePentagon and a devout Christian, had openly and publicly,on several occasions, expressed his personal opinion ofIslam, which happens to be rather low. Considering wherethe terror is coming from, this is far less surprisingthan Mr. Krugman's eagerness to sacrifice both GeneralBoykin and the First Amendment in order to mollifymoderate Muslims. I'd like to ask Mr. Krugman what giveshim reason to believe that the beings he is trying tomollify actually exist.

The official, politically correct point of view says thatIslam is just another monotheistic religion, not thatdifferent from Judaism or Christianity. If that is true,then moderate Muslims must exist, just like moderatemembers of other faiths. However, moderate members ofother faiths do not require sacrificial mollification -that's basically how we tell moderates from extremists.Therefore, either moderate Muslims are mythicalcreatures, or we need substantially different criteria toidentify them. That dilemma alone should make ussuspicious as to whether Islam is "just anotherreligion". Obviously, it is important that we determinehow a moderate Muslim can be distinguished from a Muslimextremist.

Why not ask Muslims themselves? Irshad Manji, a youngCanadian author, has published a book titled "The TroubleWith Islam." Since we don't hear too many Muslim voicescriticizing their religion, her book deserves ourattention. This is what the author herself says on herpromotional website (www.muslim-refusenik.com/...dex.html): "I appreciate that everyfaith has its share of literalists. Christians have theirEvangelicals. Jews have the ultra-Orthodox. For God'ssake, even Buddhists have fundamentalists. But what thisbook hammers home is that only in Islam the literalism ismainstream." Apparently, the terms "literalism" and"fundamentalism" in the quotation above are usedinterchangeably, as synonyms of religious extremism.Unfortunately, the author fails to mention the mostimportant difference between "literalists" in Islam andother religions. Evangelical Christians may believe thatheaven is reserved for them alone. Ultra-Orthodox Jewsmay display intimate understanding of the murkiest placesin the Talmud. I have no idea what extreme fundamentalistBuddhists do that sets them apart from their moderatecoreligionists. What I do know however is that noreligion except Islam pursues the idea of physicalextermination of those who believe differently. Theconcept of holy war is unique to Islam. Jihad is theabsolute monopoly of Muslims. There is no parallel to itin any other religion in the world (Yes, I have heardabout Crusades, but Christianity does not mandate them,and do you know when the last Crusade ended?). So, herewe have it in plain English, as simple as A, B, C: A.According to the Koran, holy war against the infidels isa sacred duty of every Muslim. B. According to Ms. Manji,mainstream Muslims interpret Koran literally. Theconclusion is inevitable: C. Mainstream Muslims perceivewar against the infidels - meaning you and me - as theirsacred duty. Once you understand that, you don't needbooks to explain to you what exactly the trouble withIslam is. The trouble with Islam derives from the factthat mainstream Islam openly calls for murder of allinfidels. That's why Islam is not "just anotherreligion". That's what, in my view, allows to classifyall its followers as extremist. What then, besides ourstubborn, groundless faith in the general goodness of ourfellow human beings, leads us to believe that moderateMuslims are not just a figment of our imagination? How dothey manifest themselves in the real world?

It would be utterly useless to look for them in Gaza,Judea, or Samaria. Unlike bin Laden, terrorists occupyingIsraeli lands do not live in caves. They live in smalltowns, villages, and crowded refugee camps where everyoneknows everything about everyone else. They couldn'tsurvive for a day without popular support. When someonegives them a reason to doubt the sincerity of hissupport, they label him a collaborator and murder him onthe spot. Indeed, the PA-sponsored educational systemguarantees that innocent children are indoctrinated inthe most murderous variety of Islamic extremism - therebylosing their innocence - at the earliest possible age.Therefore, in Israel, a moderate Muslim is a dead Muslim,which is bad news for those who want us to believe thatthere is a peaceful solution to the continuing Arab waragainst Israel.

Let's look elsewhere. Afghanistan, liberated by theUnited States from the medieval tyranny of the Taliban isabout to publish the draft of its first constitution.Their new constitution is going to be firmly based onIslamic principles. The country itself is soon to berenamed the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. We wouldn'tcall a Jew or a Christian who wanted his religion tobecome the basis of his country's constitution amoderate, would we? Here, in the United States, we valuethe separation of church from state so much that welaunch court battles to remove the Ten Commandments andevery reference to God from everything that is evenremotely related to the government.

If Islam is "just another religion", shouldn't the samecriteria apply to Muslim countries? And if the samecriteria do apply, we have to conclude that PresidentKarzai installed in Afghanistan by the American militaryand unable to survive now or in the foreseeable futurewithout the American military presence, is not a moderateMuslim, but an outright religious extremist. His "Verycorrect" remark to Mahadir's call for the exterminationof Jews shows that he is a political extremist as well.

Therefore, the only practical question regardingAfghanistan is why did the United States have to wastelives of its soldiers and tens of billions of dollars inorder to replace one bunch of Muslim extremists withanother? It might have been worthwhile had it improvedour security at home, but, as we know, that didn'thappen. Therefore, we have to conclude that the UnitedStates has once again won a battle but lost the war. Thesame will inevitably happen in Iraq. The desperate searchfor moderate Muslims goes all around the world. It isespecially urgent in Europe, whose face is beingirreversibly altered by mass immigration from Islamiccountries.

Recently, the British government appealed to the growingBritish Muslim community to isolate extremists in theirmidst. It's not hard to predict the response. Actually,there will be no response, because everyone in any Muslimcommunity is an extremist. Such is the nature of Islam,and the only thing that I find hard to comprehend is theself-imposed blindness of the British government.Apparently, such is the price of liberalism and politicalcorrectness. Bye-bye, Europe. We are next.

I don't think World War II could be won if the Allies,instead of eradicating Nazism, attempted to replace Naziextremists with moderate Nazis. Actually, nobody waslooking for moderate Nazis during World War II. But thosewere simpler, purer times.

Today, the mythical moderate Muslim remains the focalpoint of the US foreign policy in the Middle East. Theblind faith in his existence has already led the UnitedStates to many monumental failures, and many more are tobe expected in the future.

Meanwhile, the moderate Muslim, along with the Big Foot,the unicorn, and the Loch Ness monster, remains moreelusive than a cure for cancer. There is at least atheoretical possibility that a cure for cancer can befound one day, unless of course Islam takes over anddrags us all down into its own endless Dark Ages.

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educationalpurposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may nothave been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of theposter. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption forfair use of copyrighted works. o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, currente-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number. o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others arenot necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

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