If there were no illegal hits, there’s no case against the players.
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Absolutely not true! You can target a player’s previous injuries without incurring a flag. You can intend to injure without getting fined.

Besides, the league wasn’t just punishing the players for actual hits and actual exchange of money. It was the culture, the attitude, the mindset. The rah, rah let’s knock him out of the game, let’s target his injuries, can lead to guys going overboard; just look at McCrary’s hit on Farve in that NFC Championship game.

They also punished them for the lies and obstruction when the league first investigated.

Having said that, the player suspensions seem like they should be about half of what they are. But maybe they would be if they hadn’t stone walled the league. Michael Vick learned that the hard way too.

]]>By: 2112rulerhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1847149
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 00:42:26 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1847149“The NFLPA has asked the NFL to re-start the bounty investigation, from scratch, now that we’ve had a chance to eliminate/hide/destroy most of the evidence.”

I fixed this sentence.

Seriously – coaches have told players to flat out lie, union execs have told players to not cooperate, the whole thing has been blown up so big that nobody is going to talk without having legal counsel present, and let’s not forget that the Saints were warned to knock it off and chose to ignore that warning. What makes anybody think that restarting the investigation would reveal any scrap of real truth whatsoever?

In short, they got off light and should be thankful their Superbowl trophy wasn’t taken (which I heard suggested more than once before the punishments were decided on).

]]>By: ftcsubshttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1847020
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 22:24:46 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1847020correct me if I am wrong Goodell has offered to De to participate in the investigation. and goodell even asked De to be part of fair punishment and what they believed proper punishment. they have asked players to come tell their side. they have had several months to be part of it. De has told everyone to keep quite dont help in the investigation. they know the deal. they know that they got caught. now its smoke and mirrors to try deflect of the evidence to take the conversation about goodell and his authority.the NFLPA is trying to get their players to support the process because they dont agree with discipline procedures. but the deal is most of the players should be upset that other teams are trying to end your career.
]]>By: silentcounthttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1847012
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 22:20:18 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1847012Goodell will still have made his point and sent a clear message to all teams, even if he lifts all suspensions except for Greg Williams. That might be the only thing to do if he still wants to be commissioner this time next year. He’s not to be trusted ever again if he doesn’t admit his mistakes.
]]>By: sampullshttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846974
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:50:06 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846974NFLPA is calling out the NFL for not playing fair? Is this the same NFLPA who told their players to NOT cooperate with the NFL’s investigation?
]]>By: marcinhoustonhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846920
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:54:28 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846920The investigators were just trying to collect a bounty that Goodell offered them for verifying his pre-conceived notions.
]]>By: Debhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846897
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:38:03 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846897@redstar504 …

I’ve been arguing all along that, while I support the suspensions of Saints coaches/GM, the league has no case against NO players–except perhaps Vilma if it can be proved he offered a $10,000 bounty on Favre. Illegal hits should have been flagged/fined at the time. If there were no illegal hits, there’s no case against the players. So your diatribe on the other thread about me hating the Saints and wanting to see their players punished was pure wackadoodle. Dude, lay off the hot sauce.

]]>By: nflfan101http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846857
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:09:55 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846857There may or may not have been a bounty system, but I really, truly do not believe that the NFL has made up all of this.

What I do know is that De Smith has a duty and responsibility to ALL NFL players, not just those who the NFL has suspended. The so called NFLPA should be working with the NFL to make sure that none, and I mean none, of its’ members were intentionally and for money trying to hurt others of its’ members.

It looks to me that the NFLPA is only interested in fighting the NFL and really doesn’t give a d— about its’ members/players. If the NFLPA actually cared about its’ members/players, it would be working with the NFL to make sure that there are not any bounty systems instead of just fighting on behalf of a few players.

]]>By: daveman8403http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846853
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:07:17 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846853So Smith’s witnesses include a felon with friends in high places on the Saints, and people already facing large suspensions. Yeah, I’m sure their assistance in a re-opened probe would be forthright and honest.

——————————————————————————————————–

The NFL is calling the same people (Ornstein, Vitt, Williams) as witnesses. so what’s your point? their is only 1 unknown source that corroborated the evidence they showed the players. And most people think it’s Cerallo, an ex employee who is disgruntled.

]]>By: raidafan7http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846802
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:35:54 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846802Lets take a poll: Listen to both Smith and Pash. Florio asks them both tough questions some that could incriminate both sides. Smith seemed calm, answered each question with a sensible answer with explanations. Pash was calm and had a general message until the questions were specific. He then started to stutter and sidestep questions. His best quote is you have to look at the total picture not each individual part. That sounds to me like someone with a bunch of circumstantial evidence. Totally avoided the question of Hargrove saying give me my money. It almost looks as the roles are reversed. The defendant is calm straight forward and giving evidence. The Complainant is nervous, elusive and covering up evidence.
]]>By: musicman495http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846793
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:30:32 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846793Does anyone other than Saints fans truly believe that the NFL and Goodell have made a mistake or this is a conspiracy??
———————————
Uh, those are not the words I would use, but the short answer is yes. IMHO Goodell is completely over hyping and over punishing the Saints because:

a) He wants to cover his behind with the class action concussion lawsuits

b) He wants to prevent Congress from getting more involved in NFL oversight

c) He is ticked and got his feelings hurt because the Saints blew him off when he told them to knock it off

In addition, he wants to hide his “50,000 pages of evidence” because in addition to “evidence” against the Saints, it probably also shows exculpatory evidence, and it probably also shows that these pay for performance programs have been in effect on numerous teams for more than 50 years, including other teams that Gregg Williams worked for.

]]>By: renhoekk2http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846791
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:29:54 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846791Seriously, how much “evidence” could there be? The NFL has created this perception of a mountain of evidence about a “bounty program” aimed at injuring other players. Where is it? How much physical evidence could there be. At most the only thing you would need is a notebook and a pencil to run the thing. They are selling the lie that they are not revealing more evidence to protect their informants and the media and the fans are buying into it. Supposedly they have “real hard evidence” they are withholding and only putting out these swiss cheese facts to protect witnesses according to Peter King. I used to think he was one of the smarter writers but age must be catching up with him. They aren’t producing better evidence because there isn’t any. And having a former federal prosecutor to window dress it and try to lend some credibility to it is pathetic. If they had such cold hard evidence that was indisputable why would they need Mary Jo White at all. They are trying to buy credibility. They are failing.

And I’m not a Saints fan. I’m a Skins fan and we play the Saints to open the season so it would be much better if all of these suspensions hold up. But when something is wrong it’s just wrong.

]]>By: selldannysellhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846783
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:26:04 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846783The same could be said for the NFLPA.
]]>By: bucfandangohttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846777
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:22:45 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846777To what extent any of the players were involved, I believe the Coaches are ultimately to blame. They planned, lead, organized and controlled the operation. Maybe it was cash incentives to play at a high level or maybe it was more than that at times. Whatever it was, there were rules broken, and for that someone should pay the price, which the Coaches have paid. Usually what happens is that once you catch the Big Fish, the little fish are left alone. This is not the case here, as a few are being targeted heavily. It is akin to following unlawful orders in the military or law enforcement. If you know it is wrong and you do it anyway, you put yourself at risk or reprisal. They should probably try and a find a mediated solution that everyone can live with. At least Goodell only punished a few of the defensive players and not the whole unit. The punishments are harsh, maybe too harsh, but could have been more widespread and someone has to pay the piper.
]]>By: dannyabramowitzhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846769
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:19:24 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846769It’s become clear that Goodell’s investigation is a joke. The evidence doesn’t stand up, and now Goodell has gone into CYA mode and is throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.

He has destroyed player’s livelihoods and reputations. Can you imagine how Fujita feels, having to go through life (and his kids) labeled as a player who put bounties on other players?

If Goodell has once ounce of integrity, he should admit his mistake NOW. If not, he is despicable.

]]>By: cfmaguire9http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846756
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:11:20 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846756De Smith cueing his inner Jackie Chiles from Seinfeld.
It’s lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!
]]>By: goodolebagheadhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846753
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:08:37 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846753As a Saint fan, all I want is the absolute truth. I want to see the bounty program and see how bad it really was. I want to know that the people getting punished deserved it and those that didn’t aren’t drug through the mud. The NFL seems intent on keeping any real truth from coming out.
]]>By: kidpresentablehttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846751
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:05:50 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846751“Smith also points to witnesses who have “clearly and publicly stated that the NFL grossly mischaracterized the information…Vitt… Ornstein … Fujita … Vilma…Smith…Hargrove”

So Smith’s witnesses include a felon with friends in high places on the Saints, and people already facing large suspensions. Yeah, I’m sure their assistance in a re-opened probe would be forthright and honest.

The players need to think about electing a better mouthpiece. Smith stunk it up during negotiations, and his constituents have to be having second thoughts.

]]>By: eztargetonehttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846740
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:54:31 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846740Does anyone other than Saints fans truly believe that the NFL and Goodell have made a mistake or this is a conspiracy??
If this were in the real judicial system all the evidence would be out by now and the whistle blowers would have the federal protection on their side. This isn’t the real judicial system though and if all the evidence came out, the whistle blowers would be unfairly ostracized or worse.
Here is evidence for you: the people who they claim are “retracting” their previous statements?? They wouldn’t have said the things before anyway unless the NFL compelled and showed them evidence to the point they could no longer lie. Now that the NFL isn’t releasing the evidence, they are trying to backpedal knowing the NFL won’t publicly show the evidence they have seen that made them tell the truth.
It’s common sense.
]]>By: longdrivesainthttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846736
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:52:13 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846736dexterismyhero says:
Jun 22, 2012 2:13 PM
Cue the Saints fans again. Their team never did anything wrong. Blah…Blah…Blah…

————————————————-

Yeah and cue the Saints haters too.

]]>By: mathomp3http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846726
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:46:57 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846726This would sound way better coming out of the mouth of Johnnie Cochran…
]]>By: swingondeesenutshttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846723
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:44:55 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846723This coming from the group that signed a CBA that basically made GODdell the unchecked king of NFL? Maybe if DeMaurice Smith wasn’t such an unqualified moron the players would have better protections against the league office in place.
]]>By: broncobrewerhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846722
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:44:21 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846722Not a Saints fan I still think this was a bad investigation. I think the nfl didn’t find what it wanted so it twisted words and statements. If I was Greg Williams I would come out with the truth. Screw the nfl. Catch them in their lies
]]>By: hey804http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846699
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:37:07 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846699As a Saints fan I’m kinda torn at this point. I do think we’ve been unfairly dragged through the mud, but at the same time the longer we fight this the more of a distraction is going to be. Making the playoffs after all this would be quite an achievement. It’s like our whole team was put on the cover of Madden.
]]>By: montstahttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846698
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:36:50 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846698So the CBA only says Goodell has to do X, but De Smith now asks that he go above and beyond the minimum requirements of the CBA and do Y instead? Why would Goodell show such a courtesy to a man that would under NO circumstances do the same for him?
]]>By: hedleykowhttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/#comment-1846697
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:35:40 +0000http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=939080#comment-1846697I would have thought the NFLPA would recommend doubling or even tripling the suspensions.
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