Many years ago Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a translator called Kennard Lipman. He translated and published some of the first important Dzogchen text available openly. Such as "Primodial Experience" and "You are the eyes of the world". I wonder what happened to him and happened to run across thishttp://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In short he left Buddhism and became a Rabi.
Anyway, suddenly out of the blue a new book arrives with his name on it. http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=21310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts. However I can't quite stop to wonder if he is back to Buddhism again? Anyone knows?
When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

heart wrote:Many years ago Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a translator called Kennard Lipman. He translated and published some of the first important Dzogchen text available openly. Such as "Primodial Experience" and "You are the eyes of the world". I wonder what happened to him and happened to run across thishttp://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In short he left Buddhism and became a Rabi.
Anyway, suddenly out of the blue a new book arrives with his name on it. http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=21310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts. However I can't quite stop to wonder if he is back to Buddhism again? Anyone knows?
When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.

/magnus

Am so wondering, as all embracing nature, (he wrote another book of Dzogchen) is not excluding anything or any religion, knowing how all phenomena are...

heart wrote:
When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.

Why? I think belief is not so relevant. What is relevant is the translators ability to translate. But to that I suppose is related the translators practical understanding of the teachings.

Eh well, the ability to translate is dependent on how well we know the subject and also on our relationship to the subject. There a quite a few translations that are made by scholars that are pretty doubtful as far as translations go. I would say that this is particularly true about Dzogchen.

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

udawa wrote:Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.

Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.

D

Yes there are quite a few odd quotes here and there in his own commentary. He was a student for Herbert Gunther so his translation style is a bit odd as well.

/magnus

Ah yes. Lipman also did the Longchenpa text which he gave a Grateful Dead title (You are the Eyes of the World). I guess the ironic thing about late Guenther translations (and possibly those of his students) is that they are so opaque, and require so much un-translation to understand, that they remain almost as 'secret' as if they were left in the original Tibetan.

Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

udawa wrote:Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.

Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.

D

Yes there are quite a few odd quotes here and there in his own commentary. He was a student for Herbert Gunther so his translation style is a bit odd as well.

/magnus

Ah yes. Lipman also did the Longchenpa text which he gave a Grateful Dead title (You are the Eyes of the World). I guess the ironic thing about late Guenther translations (and possibly those of his students) is that they are so opaque, and require so much un-translation to understand, that they remain almost as 'secret' as if they were left in the original Tibetan.

I agree, they are almost impossible to read. This one is better than Lipmans other translations. Still it irritates me a lot when he translate element as mode. The wisdom of the five elements have a long history in the west and might even point to a common source with Tantra (just speculation on my part). Calling it mode is just obscuring the meaning.

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Upon reading the translations, I must admit to have been quite puzzled sometimes. I asked Jean-Luc to check with his own translation of these texts and we found that the Lipman versions are not very precise. For instance, at the beginning of text one, some lines are squeezed, others are skipped (like announcing the structure of the text), another one (the enumeration of the elements) has extra material added by Lipman and a quotation is not translated. There is nothing typographically that lets you be aware of this. Translating back from Jean-Luc french translation (switch technical words with your usual ones if necessary), the first lines are after the homage :

I, myself, Padma from Orgyen,
Will reveal the oral teachings (zhal gyi gdams pa)
Of these crucial pith-instructions of the Dakinis.

This has five main subdivisions :
The outer, inner, secret, (as well as)
The innermost secret and the unnexcelled (explanations).

The treatment is even worse in the second text, where a large part of the introductory material in tibetan is lacking in the English translation. It’s a wonder such a work was accepted for publication by Shambhala. Nobody reads Tibetan in their offices ? This is not very serious and not very respectful of the Terma tradition... I always had reservations regarding Lipman's translations (starting with his lexicon) but these are really confirming my opinion on this author's work.

mutsuk wrote:Upon reading the translations, I must admit to have been quite puzzled sometimes. I asked Jean-Luc to check with his own translation of these texts and we found that the Lipman versions are not very precise. For instance, at the beginning of text one, some lines are squeezed, others are skipped (like announcing the structure of the text), another one (the enumeration of the elements) has extra material added by Lipman and a quotation is not translated. There is nothing typographically that lets you be aware of this. Translating back from Jean-Luc french translation (switch technical words with your usual ones if necessary), the first lines are after the homage :

I, myself, Padma from Orgyen,
Will reveal the oral teachings (zhal gyi gdams pa)
Of these crucial pith-instructions of the Dakinis.

This has five main subdivisions :
The outer, inner, secret, (as well as)
The innermost secret and the unnexcelled (explanations).

The treatment is even worse in the second text, where a large part of the introductory material in tibetan is lacking in the English translation. It’s a wonder such a work was accepted for publication by Shambhala. Nobody reads Tibetan in their offices ? This is not very serious and not very respectful of the Terma tradition... I always had reservations regarding Lipman's translations (starting with his lexicon) but these are really confirming my opinion on this author's work.

Thank you mutsuk, how strange off Lipman to drop lines and extra material is even stranger. Did Jean-Luc translate both the texts to English or is it only in French?

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

I agree, they are almost impossible to read. This one is better than Lipmans other translations. Still it irritates me a lot when he translate element as mode. The wisdom of the five elements have a long history in the west and might even point to a common source with Tantra (just speculation on my part). Calling it mode is just obscuring the meaning.

/magnus

Magnus, on the face of it, 'mode' does seem to be a perverse translation of 'element' (presumably 'byung ba/bhuta?). Does Lipman give any explanation for his choice of word here?

Allowing for Mutsuk's very helpful comments about unreliability issues in the translation, I'm still wondering whether it's worth reading. Any thoughts?

D

Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

I agree, they are almost impossible to read. This one is better than Lipmans other translations. Still it irritates me a lot when he translate element as mode. The wisdom of the five elements have a long history in the west and might even point to a common source with Tantra (just speculation on my part). Calling it mode is just obscuring the meaning.

/magnus

Magnus, on the face of it, 'mode' does seem to be a perverse translation of 'element' (presumably 'byung ba/bhuta?). Does Lipman give any explanation for his choice of word here?

Allowing for Mutsuk's very helpful comments about unreliability issues in the translation, I'm still wondering whether it's worth reading. Any thoughts?

D

D,

Yes, he give a explanation for this, but I don't buy it. I will write what he says when I have more time. I don't read Tibetan but I found the texts very interesting but I did have some doubts even before mutsuk posts which is why I started this thread.

/magnus

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts.

They're interesting indeed. Too bad that to actually practice them you need transmission of this...

When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.

Why? I think belief is not so relevant. What is relevant is the translators ability to translate. But to that I suppose is related the translators practical understanding of the teachings.

Hi Pero,

hope you get some nice idea about Padmalingpa's Dronpa Munsel text
To reply your post, I think it's normal that you need a transmission to practice it? So it's probably not 'too bad.'
I don't know what they are, but if it's tsa lung practice, even you got WANG and LUNG you wouldn't be able to practice it properly.

And about translation... I am in the middle of western and tibetan thinking (undecide yet). Tibetan people think if you can translate a high text such as dzogchen properly, you must have got the blessing from guru or diety, otherwise you can't do it properly. That's why there's always translator's homage phrase in translated texts. Logically the ability of translation and one's moral/spiritual level are different, but most of Tibetan believe they are very related.

Anyway, I might be too strict but I believe Buddhist texts, not to mention Dzogchen texts, have to be treated extremely carefully. Losing lines carelessly is just immoral.