I will say this that I am concerned at how this fiscal cliff is being approached. I really thought by now the Republicans would offer up some of the ideas that Mitt was going to use to boost the economy and create 7 to 12 million jobs and debt reduction. It is now apparent from the GOPs response to Obama that either they had NO plan and were BSing us or Mitt just refused to share. If it is the latter that is one selfish man

So Lance, here's a compromise on cutting spending, without raising taxes.
How about if the TEA party welfare states start paying their fair share. As a fellow Californian, I'm sure you're aware that many of the red states get way more money back from Wash. than they send. Our state, California, only gets $.78 back for every dollar we send, Conn.; .69, New York; .79, Colorado; .81, and Mass.; .82

On the other side, the red states are a different story. New Mexico; $2.03, Miss.; $2.02, La.; $1.75, Alaska; $1.84,
Kentucky, (Mitch McConnel's state); $1.51, Alabama; $1.53, Arkansas; $1.41.
If the tea bagger congressmembers are serious about cutting spending, they should start at home.
Lance, you and I can not afford to carry these modern "welfare queens" anymore.

I agree, it means that the liberal/socialist model states will have to go bankrupt, like a socialist country will sooner or later... but then again, those states are "too big to fail" right.

Lance, Lance, lance... you SOOO fawny! There IS GOING to be a return to pre-Bush tax rates AT THE VERY LEAST! Spending cuts come right along WITH those changes. Is that lost on YOU?

Unfortunately for you, I am not a liberal. Rather I am a republican who voted for the best chance we have to get things back under control. I am pragmatic where as you appear to be a Solipsist & are "tilting windmills" Sir.

Pragmatism - "The idea that inquiry depends on real doubt, not mere verbal or hyperbolic doubt and said, in order to understand a conception in a fruitful way, "Consider the practical effects of the objects of your conception. Then, your conception of those effects is the whole of your conception of the object" which he later called the pragmatic maxim. It equates any conception of an object to a conception of that object's effects to a general extent of the effects' conceivable implications for informed practice. It is the heart of his pragmatism as a method of experimental mental reflection arriving at conceptions in terms of conceivable confirmatory and dis-confirmatory circumstances"

Solipsism - "Philosophy students often tell a joke, that there is a solipsist on campus that is going around trying to bring everyone else around to his point of view. The joke contains another logical problem with solipsism, which is, if a solipsist argues for his position, who is he talking to? Logic by definition only exists by virtue of agreement, so by using logic the solipsist defeats his own argument."

PS - Since I am worth over a million $'s, doesn't that make me a "rich" person "sticking it to myself"? The point that is being made is that people making a million A YEAR can "afford" to have their taxes returned to the original state prior to the artificial Bush subsidies in the form of tax cuts for the rich (and everybody else) were passed. Due to my income level, I can EASILY absorb the $2,200 in additional taxes the restoration of the original taxes would induce. If you are a "honorable" republican, you too SHOULD be willing to bare your share. Are you REALLY saying that you can't afford an additional $2,200 on a $100K+/yearly income?

Any tax increase would hurt me a lot, I live paycheck to paycheck...

You seem like a bright boy, you ought to know that this tax increase does NOTHING to fix our problems, a virtual 'drop in the bucket'... it's only stimulating business and cuts in SPENDING that will fix this mess... the tax increase thing is a smoke screen... too bad you're easily blinded by it.

As a business man, or at least a weathy man, you should know about some basic economics... the key to this mess is... wait for it.. excessive SPENDING.

I will say this that I am concerned at how this fiscal cliff is being approached. I really thought by now the Republicans would offer up some of the ideas that Mitt was going to use to boost the economy and create 7 to 12 million jobs and debt reduction. It is now apparent from the GOPs response to Obama that either they had NO plan and were BSing us or Mitt just refused to share. If it is the latter that is one selfish man

You might remember the Ryan budget... that's packed with ideas.... Obama isn't listening to real ideas... he's got his 'stick it to the rich plan' to make himself seem powerful... he's not about to cut anything meaninful, you ought to know Obama enough by now to realize that.

Have another drink of that Koolaid, life must be easier when your mind is soaked in it.

You seem like a bright boy, you ought to know that this tax increase does NOTHING to fix our problems, a virtual 'drop in the bucket'... it's only stimulating business and cuts in SPENDING that will fix this mess... the tax increase thing is a smoke screen... too bad you're easily blinded by it.

As a business man, or at least a weathy man, you should know about some basic economics... the key to this mess is... wait for it.. excessive SPENDING.

Thanks for the humor but I turned 50 on Sunday so no where near "a boy". I don't consider myself wealthy. I don't even have $50K in cash sitting around. A lot of my value is in real estate having a "mostly" paid off modest home (under $400K), a rental property & numerous 401Ks. Rather, I am middle-class or at most upper middle class at best. These taxes proposed by the President are (mostly) on the upper 2% which is WAY beyond me. Even in a good year I only make about 50% of the level that would be impacted. I DO watch CNBC and I DO trade stocks weekly and what I am seeing out of this republican leadership is well, embarrassing.

Due to biased reporting, the general population doesn't realize what the house leader is opposing. They THINK he is fighting for them when in reality, he is fighting for himself and others who make in excess of $250K/year. Granted, that population is mostly republican's who own one or more business but it's still less than 5% of this party's populace. You have already stated that you don't make $250K/year so why are YOU SO FOR his leadership? I personally think they need to remove Boehner yet you are defending the guy to stonewall in face of the worst alternative. If he does then his inaction WILL lead to ALL of us getting hit (with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts). He does not bargain in good faith. He should NOT use terms like "the president's proposal is to raise taxes" because.. well, he is NOT. Obama is offering to EXTEND the tax CUTS for the majority under his plan (That is you, me & EVERYBODY making less than $250K/year).

In this case, resistance is futile because the alternative to accepting the president's proposal is FAR worse for MOST of us. It impacts those making more than $250K EXACTLY the same way so they are the ONLY ones who have a hand in the current resistance. Once we are past this point (one way or another), perhaps the republican leadership can return our party back to where it is SUPPOSE to be rather than lying to the populace about what is going on.

The tax increase is the FIRST step in a process. There HAS to be compromises on both sides. Returning the revenues back to where they were 8 years ago would actually go a LONG way in the right direction. Allowing that to stay in place for ONLY the wealthy does not do that much but at least it's SOMETHING.

As they say "baby steps" are the ONLY REAL way to get where we need to go & Boenher is trying to make that first step into a 100 foot fall whereas simply accepting the president's program, we would have only have a 2 foot drop which EVERYONE could easily hop down. Why not carve out 50 2 foot steps? I'll tell you why... because that is not the POLITICAL way. Instead of this being about the general population, it is ALL about special interest and ONLY about special interest.

The republican leadership has two options available to them. They can put their tongue on a 9 volt battery and receive a small tingle (This is passing the Obama plan) or they can pour gasoline on their mercedes, step into the back seat while their chaffuer is handed a blowtorch that was built by a company that republican leadership owns (Tax cut expiration that was 'built' by the Bush administration).

The Chaffuer is the 'smart' republican distancing himself from the 'stupid' leadership in the car. The republican senator may be in the back seat but at least he still has a chance until.... that prior artificial plan expires.

Lance - Please by all means feel free to reply directly to this analogy or my prior post with specifics rather than replying with empty hyperbole.

I don't care what taxes those in the +$250k range pay, but we need to stop spending or it doesn't mean a thing. SS retirement and Medicare need to off the table. Defence needs to be gutted. Foriegn aid needs to cease.

I don't care what taxes those in the +$250k range pay, but we need to stop spending or it doesn't mean a thing. SS retirement and Medicare need to off the table. Defence needs to be gutted. Foriegn aid needs to cease.

And yet the ONLY thing currently available TODAY are the tax impacts included in Obama's taxing alternative to the Bush model. Granted, other things "can be added" (in the future) but nothing else AT ALL HAS to be addressed to avoid the fiscal cliff other than agreeing to Obama's alternative tax model. Reducing spending is NOT REQUIRED to avoid the fiscal cliff. Entitlements do not NEED to be addressed to avoid the fiscal cliff, etc. They CAN all be addressed in 2013 after the cliff has been avoided. Let the other issues stand on their own merit rather than trying to "piggy-back" them into legislation like so many of the misguided "pork barrel" initiatives.

To address TODAY's issues, we can address today's issues or alternatively the republican leadership can simply continue to bitch and moan and run us off the cliff. It really is THAT simple.

There is ALREADY a bill that has ALREADY been approved by EVERYONE except the House. ...Republicans offered the plan amid pressure for a House vote -- which Boehner has so far prevented -- on a measure already approved by the Senate to extend tax cuts for families making less than $250,000 a year and to allow rates to return to Clinton-era levels for wealthier households. Lower tax rates set in 2001 and 2003 were extended for two years as part of budget talks in 2010.

And yet the ONLY thing currently available TODAY are the tax impacts included in Obama's taxing alternative to the Bush model. Granted, other things "can be added" (in the future) but nothing else AT ALL HAS to be addressed to avoid the fiscal cliff other than agreeing to Obama's alternative tax model. Reducing spending is NOT REQUIRED to avoid the fiscal cliff. Entitlements do not NEED to be addressed to avoid the fiscal cliff, etc. They CAN all be addressed in 2013 after the cliff has been avoided. Let the other issues stand on their own merit rather than trying to "piggy-back" them into legislation like so many of the misguided "pork barrel" initiatives.

To address TODAY's issues, we can address today's issues or alternatively the republican leadership can simply continue to bitch and moan and run us off the cliff. It really is THAT simple.

I agreee, you aren't the bright boy I had asssumed...

You so easily fall for Obama's ridiculous offer, "Just agree to everything "I" want and we'll do something that really addresses the problem later"... right.

You also fall for the childish belief that the republican's only concern is protecting the rich... Obama's class warfare stategy has worked well on you.... why is it so difficult to believe that the republicans see this increased tax issue as a non-answer to the real problem since the money from it is so small, and the FACT that continuing to raise taxes on the rich ends up ultimately with less rich people, less business revenue, and less taxes collected? That they want to begin 'some' movement toward solving the real issue which is... SPENDING.

You should be brighter than to be played like a violin by Obama and his silly 'tax and spend' agenda... you should know the tax increase does NOTHING to fix the problem, it's simply a power play, and your refusal to see the republican push to CUT SPENDING as something other than what it is, a move toward solving the real problem.