Ixalan General Discussion

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

How broadly are you defining magic? Because I sure as heck wouldn't consider either Star Wars or the Matrix as having magic. Though I also don't consider Star Wars as having guns so my definitions may be skewed.

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

How broadly are you defining magic? Because I sure as heck wouldn't consider either Star Wars or the Matrix as having magic. Though I also don't consider Star Wars as having guns so my definitions may be skewed.

If "The Force" isn't a magical entity then I am not sure what would ever be considered magical. Again, with the Matrix, Neo's ability to stop bullets mid-air is pretty magical. They're different interpretations of magic but I don't know how you would define them without using a convoluted argument of semantics as they're both examples of supernatural powers.

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

How broadly are you defining magic? Because I sure as heck wouldn't consider either Star Wars or the Matrix as having magic. Though I also don't consider Star Wars as having guns so my definitions may be skewed.

If "The Force" isn't a magical entity then I am not sure what would ever be considered magical. Again, with the Matrix, Neo's ability to stop bullets mid-air is pretty magical. They're different interpretations of magic but I don't know how you would define them without using a convoluted argument of semantics as they're both examples of supernatural powers.

There is an argument for the force being magic(are espers magic?), but Neo is literally hacking a computer program; which is about as nonmagic as possible.

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

How broadly are you defining magic? Because I sure as heck wouldn't consider either Star Wars or the Matrix as having magic. Though I also don't consider Star Wars as having guns so my definitions may be skewed.

If "The Force" isn't a magical entity then I am not sure what would ever be considered magical. Again, with the Matrix, Neo's ability to stop bullets mid-air is pretty magical. They're different interpretations of magic but I don't know how you would define them without using a convoluted argument of semantics as they're both examples of supernatural powers.

There is an argument for the force being magic(are espers magic?), but Neo is literally hacking a computer program; which is about as nonmagic as possible.

Pretty far off topic at this point...but Neo's abilities eventually extend outside of the confines of the Matrix. Maybe you're not considering that portion of the series since most people think the movies totally lost their way - I can buy that. But I was just using that scene as an example because it showed "magical" abilities and the ability was used to stop bullets - referencing the argument posted further up for why magic and guns couldn't coexist. Clearly, it was a pretty bad example though since in that scene he was within the matrix and you're absolutely right - he was just hacking it.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

How broadly are you defining magic? Because I sure as heck wouldn't consider either Star Wars or the Matrix as having magic. Though I also don't consider Star Wars as having guns so my definitions may be skewed.

If "The Force" isn't a magical entity then I am not sure what would ever be considered magical. Again, with the Matrix, Neo's ability to stop bullets mid-air is pretty magical. They're different interpretations of magic but I don't know how you would define them without using a convoluted argument of semantics as they're both examples of supernatural powers.

There is an argument for the force being magic(are espers magic?), but Neo is literally hacking a computer program; which is about as nonmagic as possible.

Pretty far off topic at this point...but Neo's abilities eventually extend outside of the confines of the Matrix. Maybe you're not considering that portion of the series since most people think the movies totally lost their way - I can buy that. But I was just using that scene as an example because it showed "magical" abilities and the ability was used to stop bullets - referencing the argument posted further up for why magic and guns couldn't coexist. Clearly, it was a pretty bad example though since in that scene he was within the matrix and you're absolutely right - he was just hacking it.

Again, apologies for letting this runaway train go so far

Continuing the off topic, I actually belive the theory that even the 'outside' world was part of the Matrix which is why he still had powers. It's an interesting theory that has a shocking amount if evidence, but either way it's still hacking computers, not magic.

Back on topic, the original point being made was you can't 'add' guns to a fantasy setting because it's screws with power balance. They specifically said you could design a fantasy world with guns you would simply need to build in foils to the guns. Star wars had their 'bullets' being slow and deflectable, so rather than being a strength they were a liability. In the Matrix the bad guys could simply move fast enough to dodge bullets and Neo had his hax.

MTG has no safe guard against fire arms. Spell casting is usually slow, exceptions vary. In the time it would take Jace to conjure an illusion or Chandra a fireball you could easily empty the clip of modern day guns, or even wild west style revolvers. They could go the usually used horrible route of nobody can aim, or even actively aims away from people but that is annoying as heck. In a more accurate example of guns and magic, the Dresden Files, they make a point that while offensive magic may have travel time it is launched at the speed of thought so defenses can be raised instantly.

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.
Older gun would mitigate this problem. Another way is build your world with guns in mind, but in a work of fiction like magic this won't work because you have a recurring cast that is not designed with guns in mind. Sure Nissa's elementals are strong, but the cowboy with the revolver would still easily kill the elf.

Star Wars and the Matrix seem to examples refuting your point of guns not mixing with magic

As I wrote in my post, if you build your world keeping in mind that there will be guns in it you can do it. Star wars and Matrix are example of that case.

I don't see what all this fussing about Innistrad is. There's at least one other continent to explore with elves and non-lupine lycanthropes. And they havent even touched the story of the UBR skeleton, horror lord who stumbled through a suspiciously tree shaped planar portal and found himself on a snow covered mountain overlooking a city of industrious elves ruled over by a jovial WR giant. Lets stop whining about the past and look forward to the future.

I don't see what all this fussing about Innistrad is. There's at least one other continent to explore with elves and non-lupine lycanthropes. And they havent even touched the story of the UBR skeleton, horror lord who stumbled through a suspiciously tree shaped planar portal and found himself on a snow covered mountain overlooking a city of industrious elves ruled over by a jovial WR giant. Lets stop whining about the past and look forward to the future.

Yo what? Where is this ever referenced? I NEED

I, err, I'm pretty sure the whole last half of that post was just a reference to the Nightmare Before Christmas...???

The additional continent, and the elves I think, were mentioned/hinted at having actually existed though??? Maybe? It sounds familiar anyhow.

I don't see what all this fussing about Innistrad is. There's at least one other continent to explore with elves and non-lupine lycanthropes. And they havent even touched the story of the UBR skeleton, horror lord who stumbled through a suspiciously tree shaped planar portal and found himself on a snow covered mountain overlooking a city of industrious elves ruled over by a jovial WR giant. Lets stop whining about the past and look forward to the future.

Yo what? Where is this ever referenced? I NEED

I, err, I'm pretty sure the whole last half of that post was just a reference to the Nightmare Before Christmas...???

The additional continent, and the elves I think, were mentioned/hinted at having actually existed though??? Maybe? It sounds familiar anyhow.

They mentioned the elves of Innistrad at some point, here is the quote from our wiki:

"According to the creative team, Elves were once present on Innistrad, but were driven to extinction."

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Thanks to DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this sick Signature.

I don't see what all this fussing about Innistrad is. There's at least one other continent to explore with elves and non-lupine lycanthropes. And they havent even touched the story of the UBR skeleton, horror lord who stumbled through a suspiciously tree shaped planar portal and found himself on a snow covered mountain overlooking a city of industrious elves ruled over by a jovial WR giant. Lets stop whining about the past and look forward to the future.

Yo what? Where is this ever referenced? I NEED

I, err, I'm pretty sure the whole last half of that post was just a reference to the Nightmare Before Christmas...???

The additional continent, and the elves I think, were mentioned/hinted at having actually existed though??? Maybe? It sounds familiar anyhow.

IIRC it Brady on the old wizard forum said it was a working idea for the werewolf curse, it was from elves being killed off and while it could be canon, it seems like it never truly confirmed? Its Schrödinger's canon. Much how we knew Avacyn was very robotic acting, before the current creative team pinned down her personality.

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Yes its a bit on the nose honestly and I am sure they will represent the Aztecs accurately, including blood sacrifice, raiding their neighbors to gain more slaves to sacrifice, and said neighbors siding with the conquistadors against the aztecs.

Yes its a bit on the nose honestly and I am sure they will represent the Aztecs accurately, including blood sacrifice, raiding their neighbors to gain more slaves to sacrifice, and said neighbors siding with the conquistadors against the aztecs.

Also the Warhammer universe has guns and tanks even.

While I agree that Vampires as conquistador/missionary metaphors are a bit on the nose, the Aztecs weren't the only mesoamerican culture the Spanish conquered. Ixalan could be taking more inspiration from the Maya civilisation instead for example. Either way, no one is denying that the Aztecs had a very brutal culture. Since Ixalan is probably NOT supposed to be an exact metaphor for the exact conflict between the conquistadors and the Aztecs though (I'm pretty sure I would remember Aztecs riding on dinosaurs for example) I fail to see your point.

Also, as has been discussed quite a bit on multiple threads here, Wizards has been very rigorous about not using fire arms (at least not non-magical ones) in MtG. Magical ones like in Kaladesh (which arguably also featured tanks and mecha) are fine though.

While I agree that Vampires as conquistador/missionary metaphors are a bit on the nose, the Aztecs weren't the only mesoamerican culture the Spanish conquered. Ixalan could be taking more inspiration from the Maya civilisation instead for example. Either way, no one is denying that the Aztecs had a very brutal culture. Since Ixalan is probably NOT supposed to be an exact metaphor for the exact conflict between the conquistadors and the Aztecs though (I'm pretty sure I would remember Aztecs riding on dinosaurs for example) I fail to see your point.

You admit that the depiction is a bit on the nose, then fail to see a point in wondering if the natives are going to be depicted accurately?

Also, as has been discussed quite a bit on multiple threads here, Wizards has been very rigorous about not using fire arms (at least not non-magical ones) in MtG. Magical ones like in Kaladesh (which arguably also featured tanks and mecha) are fine though.

Anything that has loading time, honestly, is fine. It just has to match the idea of "can we feasibly show a mage fighting against this?" So energy-charge weapons that take a bit to fire and/or have slower velocities or flintlocks, etc. could easily work. Six-shooters could work as magical-focus objects working on mana reserves and said people could take several hits, like they do with arrows and such already. Its just a matter of worldbuilding, where something like a full-auto obviously is out of place for anything but a hail-of-arrows burst of action, but lesser weapons can be balanced over to more fantasy-based analogues.

Pirates using these to open up a raid before charging in with a cutlass seems fine, but they'd have to appear less lethal or efficient than they were in real life (obviously). Which is easy when everyone can channel magic or take several hits, etc.

It may be not mtg related, but modern guns do have a problem with work of fiction based on wizards. The issue is you want to show powerful wizard casting spell and engaging in magical duels and guns prevent that. How? They simply are too powerful, while your fire mage is channeling his power to cast the spell, your average guy have already shot him in the face.

That is complete bunk, magic in magic the gathering is not required to have components like that, Heck each color has magic that can end a fight faster than a bullet or negate a bullet.

While I agree that Vampires as conquistador/missionary metaphors are a bit on the nose, the Aztecs weren't the only mesoamerican culture the Spanish conquered. Ixalan could be taking more inspiration from the Maya civilisation instead for example. Either way, no one is denying that the Aztecs had a very brutal culture. Since Ixalan is probably NOT supposed to be an exact metaphor for the exact conflict between the conquistadors and the Aztecs though (I'm pretty sure I would remember Aztecs riding on dinosaurs for example) I fail to see your point.

You admit that the depiction is a bit on the nose, then fail to see a point in wondering if the natives are going to be depicted accurately?

No, you missed my point in that the natives don't have to be depicted like that since they don't have to be inspired by the Aztecs. And while it isn't very subtle, I definitely don't mind the "Vampires as conquistadors" angle.

The problem with modern fire weapons is that the bullet has already hit the target when you notice that someone has shot you.
For exemple Gideon shield isn't always up, he have to chose to use it and before he chose so he is already dead. With lightning magic you will be dead before you can channel the spell, this is also true for all the other kind of magic.
The fact that you can't know that someone shot you before the bullet hits its target it's not the only problem, lets say you do know when someone shoot by looking at his/her fingers on the trigger you can't still do anything to prevent your death because the bullet is faster then your reaction time. Even if the high level dementia caster know when I pull the trigger he can't summoning anything because the bullet would be in his brain before he can do anything.
As long as your mage is a human he cannot "dodge" the bullet.

The problem with modern fire weapons is that the bullet has already hit the target when you notice that someone has shot you.
For exemple Gideon shield isn't always up, he have to chose to use it and before he chose so he is already dead. With lightning magic you will be dead before you can channel the spell, this is also true for all the other kind of magic.
The fact that you can't know that someone shot you before the bullet hits its target it's not the only problem, lets say you do know when someone shoot by looking at his/her fingers on the trigger you can't still do anything to prevent your death because the bullet is faster then your reaction time. Even if the high level dementia caster know when I pull the trigger he can't summoning anything because the bullet would be in his brain before he can do anything.
As long as your mage is a human he cannot "dodge" the bullet.

None of that is true, spell casting is as fast as you have trained your mind to do it. If you have the spell prepared you can instantly make all of those effects go off as fast as a gun.

Edit : Go read the Dark, it describes in Detail how Mana based spell casting works.