xcalibur wrote:my point is that it's Dune apocrypha, it's not canon, but it should be taken into consideration.

Into consideration for what?

My personal pet theories that you meanies just refuse, refuse! to accept because you are afraid of my genius and that with only a few posts I have created a truer vision of what the author intended but never set out because, get this, only the really, really, smart people would understand and I'm one of them!

xcalibur wrote:my point is that it's Dune apocrypha, it's not canon, but it should be taken into consideration.

Into consideration for what?

for an overall understanding of the Dune universe.

you'll have to pardon me, I'm new and not known around here (although I've lurked before). I didn't realize just how controversial this point was, and that calling it "semi-canon" would lead to this.

it's not canon in any way, but it's an apocryphal text of some value. I wouldn't argue that any Dune fan is compelled to accept it, but it's better than B&K.

Robspierre wrote:My personal pet theories that you meanies just refuse, refuse! to accept because you are afraid of my genius and that with only a few posts I have created a truer vision of what the author intended but never set out because, get this, only the really, really, smart people would understand and I'm one of them!

Rob

could you possibly be lampooning me, by any chance?

I did post a theory on here, but not in the way you're describing. if my few posts came across arrogant or condescending, they were not meant that way.

xcalibur wrote:At the very least it should not be placed on the same level as B&K.

Why is that?

if you review my recent posts, you'll see my reasoning. Frank Herbert gave his approval, pending his judgment, to the DE. that is more than can be said for B&K.

Both aren't canon so both are on the same level. You like the DE better than the Atrocities, there I agree and you are entitled to that opinion. But not the "apocryphal" or "semi-canon" crap you post because it is factually incorrect.

And you will have to get used to people being very blunt here, that's just the way things are. We take our Dune VERY serious!

"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,and wrote a Dune Novel."

The only way to get at this is to keep reading the Chronicles over and over. Frank included everything he felt he needed to for us to understand the story and themes, and the rest is left blank deliberately to excite our imagination (or because it doesn't matter).

Based on his relationship with McNelly it does seem that McNelly had a good grasp on a lot of the finer points of Dune, and if anyone was going to write a decent fanfic it would have been him. It's too bad, perhaps, that he wasn't the one commissioned to finish the series by writing Dune 7. But alas that didn't happen, and although I have more respect for McNelly's writing skill than the dynamic duo's, that doesn't make his material more real in terms of Frank's universe. Think of it like a Marvel "What If" comic, a lark to imagine what certain back story events might have been. All McNelly did is what every reader should do: imagine what things might have been like prior to Dune and behind the scenes. What we shouldn't do, though, is over focus on one person's version just because he wrote it down, but if I were Frank I'd have applauded such an effort too.

The only way to get at this is to keep reading the Chronicles over and over. Frank included everything he felt he needed to for us to understand the story and themes, and the rest is left blank deliberately to excite our imagination (or because it doesn't matter).

Based on his relationship with McNelly it does seem that McNelly had a good grasp on a lot of the finer points of Dune, and if anyone was going to write a decent fanfic it would have been him. It's too bad, perhaps, that he wasn't the one commissioned to finish the series by writing Dune 7. But alas that didn't happen, and although I have more respect for McNelly's writing skill than the dynamic duo's, that doesn't make his material more real in terms of Frank's universe. Think of it like a Marvel "What If" comic, a lark to imagine what certain back story events might have been. All McNelly did is what every reader should do: imagine what things might have been like prior to Dune and behind the scenes. What we shouldn't do, though, is over focus on one person's version just because he wrote it down, but if I were Frank I'd have applauded such an effort too.

Too right. I find there is a great economy in Frank's writing, probably due to his days as a journalist, and he allows our imaginations to fill in the necessary gaps.

The DE is an effort to fill in those gaps, and while entertaining at times is completely irrelevant to the Chronicles themselves.

xcalibur wrote:At the very least it should not be placed on the same level as B&K.

Why is that?

if you review my recent posts, you'll see my reasoning. Frank Herbert gave his approval, pending his judgment, to the DE. that is more than can be said for B&K.

Both aren't canon so both are on the same level. You like the DE better than the Atrocities, there I agree and you are entitled to that opinion. But not the "apocryphal" or "semi-canon" crap you post because it is factually incorrect.

And you will have to get used to people being very blunt here, that's just the way things are. We take our Dune VERY serious!

every community I've been on has its own culture and way of doing things. like I said, I've lurked, and people here are definitely blunt and cheeky at times.

georgiedenbro wrote:

xcalibur wrote:for an overall understanding of the Dune universe.

The only way to get at this is to keep reading the Chronicles over and over. Frank included everything he felt he needed to for us to understand the story and themes, and the rest is left blank deliberately to excite our imagination (or because it doesn't matter).

Based on his relationship with McNelly it does seem that McNelly had a good grasp on a lot of the finer points of Dune, and if anyone was going to write a decent fanfic it would have been him. It's too bad, perhaps, that he wasn't the one commissioned to finish the series by writing Dune 7. But alas that didn't happen, and although I have more respect for McNelly's writing skill than the dynamic duo's, that doesn't make his material more real in terms of Frank's universe. Think of it like a Marvel "What If" comic, a lark to imagine what certain back story events might have been. All McNelly did is what every reader should do: imagine what things might have been like prior to Dune and behind the scenes. What we shouldn't do, though, is over focus on one person's version just because he wrote it down, but if I were Frank I'd have applauded such an effort too.

those are good points.

I should've known arguing about canon would lead to this, considering the history here. if you're serious about defining what is Dune and what is Not, then I'll concede and say that only the original 6 are canon, and the DE isn't.

I still think the DE is a worthwhile creation (as is the David Matthews album), but I won't argue anymore about it being canon etc.

xcalibur wrote:my point is that it's Dune apocrypha, it's not canon, but it should be taken into consideration.

Into consideration for what?

for an overall understanding of the Dune universe.

you'll have to pardon me, I'm new and not known around here (although I've lurked before). I didn't realize just how controversial this point was, and that calling it "semi-canon" would lead to this.

it's not canon in any way, but it's an apocryphal text of some value. I wouldn't argue that any Dune fan is compelled to accept it, but it's better than B&K.

Robspierre wrote:My personal pet theories that you meanies just refuse, refuse! to accept because you are afraid of my genius and that with only a few posts I have created a truer vision of what the author intended but never set out because, get this, only the really, really, smart people would understand and I'm one of them!

Rob

could you possibly be lampooning me, by any chance?

I did post a theory on here, but not in the way you're describing. if my few posts came across arrogant or condescending, they were not meant that way.

Meh, more like trying too hard, if it takes four or five times repeating an answer until the light bulb goes off, question yourself. "Am I truly making an argument to progress the discussion or am I allowing ego into the mix?" There is a ton of back history and a wealth of knowledge to be found and we really do not mind the digging up of old discussions, but, this being an online medium, without the benefit of visual cues to garner context, being hyper aware helps. Now where's my Oban?

Robspierre wrote:Meh, more like trying too hard, if it takes four or five times repeating an answer until the light bulb goes off, question yourself. "Am I truly making an argument to progress the discussion or am I allowing ego into the mix?" There is a ton of back history and a wealth of knowledge to be found and we really do not mind the digging up of old discussions, but, this being an online medium, without the benefit of visual cues to garner context, being hyper aware helps. Now where's my Oban?

Rob

a brief forum search wasn't conclusive. it wasn't repeating an answer imo, it was a discussion. I wouldn't say I'm egotistical, I just tend to be stubborn-minded. and that's true, in an online medium things can be interpreted a number of ways.

SandRider wrote:you'll have to pardon me, I'm new and not known around here (although I've lurked before). I didn't realize just how controversial this point was, and that calling it "semi-canon" would lead to this.

I'm not sure what you're doing right now. if you're satirically telling me "lurk more, newfag", then that's a fair point, but there's no need to overreact to a simple misunderstanding.

Omphalos wrote:There is also some controversy over the canonicity of this work. After Herbert's son and Kevin J. Anderson began producing new Dune novels the Herbert Limited Partnership ("HLP") website produced with a letter from McNelly. In it he explains that the new authors based their continuing Dune books on notes and documents left by Frank Herbert, and not the material that can be found in the DE.

Informed readers of all relevant texts know better then to believe any of this.

The ironic thing about the controversy is that it seems that the HLP has misplaced the focus of it all. No Dune reader who ever perused the DE mistook it for canon. It was never anything more than some educated navel-gazing into the Dune universe by some motivated and informed people, and in that regard, it was a RESOUNDING success, and in short order became a beloved tome.

SandRider wrote:you'll have to pardon me, I'm new and not known around here (although I've lurked before). I didn't realize just how controversial this point was, and that calling it "semi-canon" would lead to this.

I'm not sure what you're doing right now. if you're satirically telling me "lurk more, newfag", then that's a fair point, but there's no need to overreact to a simple misunderstanding.

s'okay brotherrob made a funny

................ I exist only to amuse myself ................

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

SandRider wrote:you'll have to pardon me, I'm new and not known around here (although I've lurked before). I didn't realize just how controversial this point was, and that calling it "semi-canon" would lead to this.

I'm not sure what you're doing right now. if you're satirically telling me "lurk more, newfag", then that's a fair point, but there's no need to overreact to a simple misunderstanding.