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Ok, I will say the same thing i said on Pojo regarding Goku and Oob's power at the end of Z, and hopefully this will be the last time I will have to address this.

es, Oob being anywhere near Ssj3 Goku is ******* halarious.

Let's break it down for you boys:

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right

Goku thinks that Oob is as strong as Kid Boo, and he is not sure he can win. This here implies that Goku is not that much stronger than he was when he fought Boo 10 years ago. If he was a lot stronger, and he was going up against a guy as strong as Kid Boo, he wouldn't have doubts about him winning.

Nobody can sense a guy that's supposed to be as strong as a freaking Super Saiyan 3 here. Oob can't control his energy, he can't fly or shoot ki blast, so why would he be able to supress his power?

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight OobGoku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”

He still thinks that he needs to be at 100% to fight Oob.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”

This right here tells us again that Goku still thinks he is fighting against a guy as strong as Kid Boo.

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P12.3Oob: “Maybe mom was right after all…She told me that though I may be far and away the strongest in my village, the world is way stronger than that, and it’s sure to be full of people stronger than me…”

His mom doesn't think he is anything special, if he was one-shotting guy around his village, she would have been a little more confident?

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P6.4-5Context: as Goku and Oob are about to fightPiccolo: “This will be the most notable fight this time around…”Dende: “Huh?”Goku (to Oob): “Don’t be so tense. You won’t be able to put forth your true ability.”

He wants him to fight him at full power, using his full ability, at this point, Goku doesn't think much of Oob's Ki. Remember, Boo can't control his ki, so he can't hide his ki, what you see is what you get.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s BukujutsuGoku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you

Once Oob gets mad, and powers up a bit by pure luck and accident he shows some real power, sadly, this is a power that base Goku can handle.So why would Goku think that a guy he can sneeze at while being a Ssj could win the Budokai?? Because he didn't know Oob had no training. He expected Kid Boo, and that's who he got... So yes, Oob is who Goku thought he was, he just can't fight with his full power, so Goku decides to teach him.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P13.6Context: talking to Gohan about training OobGoku: “I don’t know how many years it will take, but I’ll come back home every now and then. Give my best to everyone!Oob is so weak, that it might take years to bring him anywhere close Kid Boo's power, Remember, Goku thought he was fighting a guy as strong as Boo, and he still didn't think he had a sure chance at victory...Now, can this base Goku=Kid Boo **** be put to rest??__________________

I rarely take my time to make arguments like that. 9 times out of 10, when I post, I do it from my phone. I don't take the time to look up the quotes and lay it out like that. I had to this time. This is one of them arguments that I think they are so dumb, that something has to be said about it...Its such a dumb argument.

I think people that follow such absurd logic is mostly due to Dragonball GT. If people would forget GT was ever made, they would look at the whole thing with an open mind, and realize that to believe such notion is ridiculous.

I've yet to see anything but guess work at trying to refute my post. Nothing. I think Goku didn't facor in Ssj is a weak and lame argument, not to mention baseless. Both himself, and Vegeta can one-shot Oob using less than half their power... how can you explain that? You can't refute any of my points without using baseless opinions. I have the manga backing me up, you guys have nothing....

Typical Cooler, telling us what he thinks, and demanding that his made up opinions be taken as fact. Try to use the manga and refute my points. Try it for a change... might work out for yah....Michael, Gohan and Oob are different people..anyway, g back and read the op. I mentioned Oobs power-up.

Then how can he claim that They might not win the budokai?? Oob is a guy that himself, and Vegeta can one-shot using less than half their power...If Goku is so much stroner than before, why he isn't sure he can beat a guy he was even with 10 years ago.

Ok, I will say the same thing i said on Pojo regarding Goku and Oob's power at the end of Z, and hopefully this will be the last time I will have to address this.

es, Oob being anywhere near Ssj3 Goku is ******* halarious.

Let's break it down for you boys:

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right

Goku thinks that Oob is as strong as Kid Boo, and he is not sure he can win. This here implies that Goku is not that much stronger than he was when he fought Boo 10 years ago. If he was a lot stronger, and he was going up against a guy as strong as Kid Boo, he wouldn't have doubts about him winning.

Or Goku had no intentions of using SSJ? That's the only way to explain it. Because a later quote you posted shows Oob is amazing as Goku expected. The power Oob used on Goku was the power Goku didn't think he could beat. Obviously if he went SSJ etc...he would have toasted him so clearly Goku wasn't thinking about SSJ at this point.

So basically your answer is Goku had no intention to use Ssj, it wasnt stated, I can't prove it, but damn it is has to be true...Goku thinks that Oob is as strong as Kid Boo, and he is not sure he can win. This here implies that Goku is not that much stronger than he was when he fought Boo 10 years ago. If he was a lot stronger, and he was going up against a guy as strong as Kid Boo, he wouldn't have doubts about him winning...You have yet to commenn on this by the way.

Nobody can sense a guy that's supposed to be as strong as a freaking Super Saiyan 3 here. Oob can't control his energy, he can't fly or shoot ki blast, so why would he be able to supress his power?

Totally ignoring the fact that Goku had to make Oob angry to draw out his power.Which he could match using his base form, so much for the guy that was going to win the budokai.

quote

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight OobGoku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”

He still thinks that he needs to be at 100% to fight Oob.

Yep, and Oob matches his expectations.

Yah, Goku expected a guy that could beat him, and he got a guy that he could win without using a third of his power.Goku at 100% would be Ssj3, not base. How can you say Boo matched his expectations, when he expected to fight a guy that he needed his full power to win against, yet he got a guy that he could win without trying.

quote

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”

This right here tells us again that Goku still thinks he is fighting against a guy as strong as Kid Boo.

Yes, and Oob matches his expectations so Oob = Kid Boo is clearly established. Goku fights him in base so Goku's base is also of that tier. Honestly the best way to make all the quotes work is for Goku to be planning to not use SSJ.

Can you prove Goku wasnt expecting to transform into a Ssj? or maybe he didnt need to?? u can be honest with me, come on.

quote

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P12.3Oob: “Maybe mom was right after all…She told me that though I may be far and away the strongest in my village, the world is way stronger than that, and it’s sure to be full of people stronger than me…”

His mom doesn't think he is anything special, if he was one-shotting guy around his village, she would have been a little more confident?

Oob din't know how to tap into his power as evidenced by Goku having to call him names. Doesn't really prove anything. Unless you're saying the power Oob demonstrated at the tournament was what he used previously in his village?

Until Goku pissed him off, he did.

quote

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P6.4-5Context: as Goku and Oob are about to fightPiccolo: “This will be the most notable fight this time around…”Dende: “Huh?”Goku (to Oob): “Don’t be so tense. You won’t be able to put forth your true ability.”

He wants him to fight him at full power, using his full ability, at this point, Goku doesn't think much of Oob's Ki. Remember, Boo can't control his ki, so he can't hide his ki, what you see is what you get.

...yes and Goku was prepared to fight him in base. Honestly are you arguing that Oob's power didn't rise during the course of his fight with Goku? Because if you are then that's clearly contradicted by Goku having to coax it out of him. And if you're not then why are you trying to use quotes where Oob wasn't at full power to say how weak he is?

Shooting yourself in the foot.

Wrong, I am arguing that his power did rise, just not enough for Goku to transform, which again is weird since Goku thought he needed 100% power to beat him, why the change of heart??

quote

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s BukujutsuGoku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you

Once Oob gets mad, and powers up a bit by pure luck and accident he shows some real power, sadly, this is a power that base Goku can handle.So why would Goku think that a guy he can sneeze at while being a Ssj could win the Budokai?? Because he didn't know Oob had no training. He expected Kid Boo, and that's who he got... So yes, Oob is who Goku thought he was, he just can't fight with his full power, so Goku decides to teach him.

Oob is as amazing as he expected, and he was expecting to fight someone ~ Kid Boo. The quotes you yourself posted show it clearly. So obviously Base Goku should be around that level too seeing as he can 'handle it'.

Your arguments are self defeating, you claim Oob can't be SSJ3 tier because it wasn't sensed yet later post a quote and say 'Oob now powers up'. Why does Oob's relaxed power matter...

'Kid Boo is exactly who he got', contradictory seeing as you're trying to claim Oob is multi folds weaker.

Goku says that he is who he expected. He expected to fight Kid Boo, the warrior, not Kid Boo, the kid that cant fly. Hence why he says he will train him.

quote

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P13.6Context: talking to Gohan about training OobGoku: “I don’t know how many years it will take, but I’ll come back home every now and then. Give my best to everyone!

Oob is so weak, that it might take years to bring him anywhere close Kid Boo's power, Remember, Goku thought he was fighting a guy as strong as Boo, and he still didn't think he had a sure chance at victory...Now, can this base Goku=Kid Boo **** be put to rest??

Goku never says Oob is weak or that he needs to bring him up to Kid Boo's level. The earlier statements show he was already at that level.

Your master piece post is self defeating.

Wrong, again. It's implied that Oob is weak since a Goku that hasnt powered that much since his last fight, can match him using less than half power...

We don't know Gokui's power level. What we do know is that Goku didn't think he could win against a guy that he thinks is as strong as the guy that was dead even with him 10 years ago...That means Goku hasn't improved that much.

Your argument makes no sense. Goku thinks Oob ~ Kid Boo, and he's later proved to be correct. He also fights in Base. Yet your conclusion is that hey Goku can't have improved that much despite fighting a SSJ3 tier in base, because he thought he'd have a hard time. Well surely it's far more logical in light of the statements and feats to assume Goku always intended to fight in base only? As in he thought he'd have a hard time because he intends to fight in base. Otherwise Goku would have made no progress at all in the 10 years considering he could match Kid Boo before.

Afterall the facts are,

- Goku expects to fight a Kid Boo tier opponent.- Goku says his expectations are met.- He thinks he'll have a hard fight.- He does have a hard fight (IN BASE).

Conclusion Goku intended to fight in base.

So you claim, Besides pulling this out of youe ass, and claiming it as fact, you have done nothing to explain Why Goku thought he would loose to a guy that was even with him 10 years ago. With all your mumbling, You havent managed to provide a solid answer, good job.

Full power in base obviously. 10 years earlier they were prepared to fight in base to avoid attention, why change now? Goku said he wanted to be 100% that doesn't haveto mean SSJ3 it means he wants to have not lost any ki or be injured.

Can you make a post without trying to claim what Goku is thinking, or why he thinks this? Goku was prepared to fight in base, and so was Gohan, did that stop them from trasforming when they needed? Why stop now? Use the manga to refute my points, not your ill logic.

You tried to make a point of no one sensing Oob earlier as if to say that makes him weak. Back tracking much?

He never said he needed his full power to win, 100% can mean all his strength in base. I don't see any evidence Goku ever intended to transform. If he did he would have been disappointed not exclaiming how amazing Oob was.

Could have, should have, would have, stop guessing and give me facts, I dont care what you think Goku meant.

ircular logic. You're saying Goku is weak so Oob must be weak for only matching a weak Goku. When there's nothing to say Goku is weak at all. The fact he matches a Kid Boo tier opponent is proof he's super strong?

Do you know what an implication is? The implications are that Oob is as strong as Kid Boo. That's what the statements imply.

At the end of the day you yourself have admitted Goku was expecting to fight someone SSJ3 tier. You use that to make sense of your 'Goku thought he might lose line of argument'. So the 'amazing as expected' line totally destroys you seeing as it implies Oob is as powerful as Kid Boo. Kid Boo equals Oob, who is a little superior to Base Goku...yet Goku has barely improved?

Either conceed the whole argument or admit you ignore the fact Oob is as 'amazing' as Kid Boo.

Amazing as expected doesn't mean Ssj 3 tier. This Amazing guy can be one shotted By Vegeta..lol..Your argument is based on your ability to be so attuned with Goku that you know what he thinks..

eincarnations usually reach the original's power or even surpass it. The fact is, Goku states that he'd need to train to beat Oob which just implies that he expected to fight somebody at Pure Boo's strength

So he didn't gain much power since he thought he might loose to a guy that he was even with 10 years ago.

Goku didn't want to cause a disturbance as an SSJ. He only uses it when he has to. Goku's a guy who plays it safe, so most likely, he would fly to another area, so his identity wouldn't be revealed. Plus, Vegeta has no problem following the rule unless he's outmatched.Goku plays it safe? Mister let me leave the fate of the world in the hands of children plays it safe? Mister lets not kill Gero because i want to fight the androids? Mister lets give Cell a senzu bean plays is safe?

Anyways, as for 100% stamina, I don't understand how an Oob vs. Goku match would be the most notable match of the Budokai if Goku would just go SSJ and one shot him.

You could say, "Ha! You contradicted yourself!" but I can also say, "Base Goku survived a full power Kaia from Oob's Enraged Burst," so then Base Goku isn't that far below Pure Boo, so Piccolo was most likely referring to Base Goku as he isn't surprised that Goku isn't using SSJ.

That's the thing, Both Goku and Vegeta could one-shot Oob. Stop pretending to know what Piccolo meant, your not AT.

I just did, but you ignore it. We know Oob ~ Kid Boo because Goku states it, he fights him in base and has a really hard fight just like he said he would. The conclusions is that Goku had planned to fight in base all a long. It's like learning your ABC's man.

No Goku never "states" it. All he says is that he is who he thought he was. This whole Goku planed to only fight in base is made up, and nothing in the manga even implies that. He fought in base because anything else would be overkill.

All your points are just dodging. Extreme circumstances forced them to transform before, if they didn't want the attention 7 years ago why would they want it now?

I'm using the manga derp, the thing I'm referencing, the 25th Budokai, it's in there if you look real hard...

I have looked real hard, I am the one posting quotes. You are the one posting what you think Goku meant. I would say my side has the manga backing me up, while your side has the: Well, Goku must have meant this, and they did that 7 years ago..That's one hell of an argument.

Contradicting yourself again. You say Goku wanted to be at 100% (SSJ3) to fight Oob, surely then he was expecting someone SSJ3 tier? As he was expecting a hard fight. Oob met his expectations, so he must be SSJ3 tier by your logic. But you can't make that work with your 'Goku meant SSJ3 herp derp he barely improved herp derp' because they fought in base.

Your argument is that Goku was expecting to use 100% of his power because he thought Oob ~ Kid Boo and he (Goku) has barely improved in 10 years. Well seeing as Oob was what he expected and he didn't need SSJ3 him saying 100% couldn't have meant SSJ3...

Your argument falls apart at every point.

Wrong. You have no evidence that Goku's base is Ssj3 Tier.All we have is Goku expecting to fight a ssj3 Tier opponent, but all he got was a kid he could handle with ease...The kid does have the potential, but it will take years for him to reach it....Give me facts, not what you think Goku meant..

quote Hermes Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5 Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you

Oob is amazing as Goku expected. So what did Goku expect? Let's see what you yourself have said.

I am not denying, or saying that Oob is not Kid Boo. That's all the quote says. Hey, I though you were Kid Boo, and I was right!! Yay. Nothing says Kid Boo can use his power. Yes, you are as amazing as I though, but you don't know how to use your power. Guess what, I am going to take God knows how many years, and teach you how to use that amazing power!! That's all that quote says. Nothing says he boy, you are at Ssj3 Power, and i can match it at base!! har har..

Goku thinks that Oob is as strong as Kid Boo, and he is not sure he can win. This here implies that Goku is not that much stronger than he was when he fought Boo 10 years ago. If he was a lot stronger, and he was going up against a guy as strong as Kid Boo, he wouldn't have doubts about him winning.

So according to yourself Goku was expecting someone as strong as Kid Boo. Seeing as Oob is as amazing as expected by your logic he must be SSJ3 tier.

So like I said how can Goku think he needs SSJ3 when he got exactly what he expected and fought the guy in bas

Ok so how can Goku not be sure if he can win the Budokai when he and Vegeta can sneeze at Oob, and send his ass to King Yemas?? Goku thinks Oob has the same power Boo did 10 years ago. Goku thinks he might not be able to win, Goku fights and only uses his base form, matching blow for blow with the kid.Goku has the power to one-shot him but chooses not to use it.Goku decides to stop the fight, and train Oob so one day they can have the fight he was expecting. All you managed to prove was that Oob was Kid Boo, and he was right. That's it. Everything else points a kid with a shitload of power that he can't use...

Cooler Where is the quote that Goku planned on not using ssj?? Im still waiting.

Amazing doesn't translate to stronger than Kid Boo. A human fighting on par with a saiyan is an amazing feat indeed. You still haven't dealt with Goku thinking he couldn't win against a guy he was even with 10 years ago...

Lol, yeah out of Ultimate Gohan,Goten,Trunks (Gotenks) and Vegeta Goku picks the guy that he can one-shot. I doubt it. Now, a FULLY TRAINED Oob, with all his power at his disposal, can defend the earth. I agree.

I don't see how Oob=Kid buu is an established fact. I want to debate, but i hate writing huge posts with many quotes.

By Skelters logic it is...

I love how you still dodge the fact that Goku said he might now win against Oob thinking Oob=Kid Boo. Why is that? Was Oob really that great? Did Goku gain no power in ten years? Or did Goku thought that Oob had the AMAZING potential that Kid Boo had, but it MIGHT TAKE YEARS for him to bring it out?

Nothing indicates that Goku had "Planed on not using Super Saiyan". That's just baseless. It seems to me like Goku didn't need to. He didn't need to do much. Ki blast, It, Nothing. Only at the end he flew, and then stopped the fight. Goku wasn't even pushed to the limits of his base form.

Again, Skelter, respond to me because I stated Goku wants a proper fight with Oob in a few years. That's suggesting he'd still be able to fight Oob even after Oob gets huge increases. It's not ridiculous to believe Base Goku is on Pure Boo level.

Of course Goku can fight Oob when Oob powers-up. Oob needs those huge increases if he doesn't want to get one-shotted by Super Saiyan Goku.Yes its ridiculous to believe. Goku in 7 years of other-world training gained huge increases by unlocking new transformations.You want me to believe that Goku, bound by earth training, all by himself, Became 400 times stronger just on base?? Especially when there is nothing indicating that?? Don't give me that plot determines power crap, it wont fly here.

Already dismantled those points, you said Goku thought he'd need SSJ3. By his own words he expected Oob to be at the level he was at. Obviously he never thought he'd need SSJ.

When you decide to stop trying to tell me what Goku thought, like somehow you and him have this special connection, then I will take you seriously. Goku didn't use Ssj because he didn't have to. Hell, not even in his base form did Goku go all out..

It's suggested that his Base is near Pure Boo considering the fact that he believed he had a chance in fighting Oob and survived an Enraged Burst from Oob w/ minor injuries at most and that burst was suggested to be ~ Pure Boo.

Or, Goku thought Oob would show up fully trained. Where does it say that Oob enraged=Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and Kid Boo?

He didn't have to against a guy who's suggested to be ~ Pure Boo. Honestly, stop making yourself look like an idiot. You're just supporting our argument now.

Wrong, a guy who is suggested to be Kid Boo. He has no feats putting him anywhere near Kid Boo's power level.His only feat is fighting a base saiyan that barely did anything impressive....Goku dodged a few punches. He barely fought back, he didn't shoot ki blast, NOTHING...Dude, he has no feats.He is the reincarnation of Kid Boo, but his power level is nowhere near..He does have the potential, but wont have that power for a few years..

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s BukujutsuGoku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

Of course he is the reincarnation of Kid Boo, with the power of Kid Boo. To bad that like Gohan, Oob can't control his power. Sure, he powered-up and SLAMED BASE GOKU against a wall, but so what? even after that, Goku continued the boring ass fight without even trying to win. He was testing Boo out, and he got what he wanted. To bad it will take years for Oob to equal Kid Boo.

Why would he be hyped up about fighting somebody who's the reincarnation of Pure Boo and eventually give up and admit that he was ~ Pure Boo?

He was, until he found out he had the power to K.O the kid whenever he wanted. Then he stopped the fight and flew away.

Seriously dude, give it up, the fact that Base Goku believed he had a chance of fighting Oob and the fact that he survived his Enraged Burst w/ minor injuries suggests that Base Goku is relatively close to Pure Boo.

Actually, he quit and confirmed that Oob ~ Pure Boo. And no dude, you yourself just say SSJin Goku would one shot Oob and with the evidence I've provided, that would mean Oob would far surpass his Enraged Burst in a few years.

No, he confirmed that Oob was Boo. Him surpassing his enraged burst is not that big a deal, since it was far below Kid Boo.

Yes, which was why Goku wants to see his true ability and quits once he saw it.

The Kid has an amazing ability, I never said he didn't..It's not stated that he=Kid Boo. Nobody, not Piccolo, not Vegeta, not Gohan, Nobody bother to mention a ten year old Kid as strong as a ssj3...I wonder why?

- Goku states he wants to see his true ability which is referred to as his dormant power that he has right now.

He does see it, He doesnt have to show Ssj3 like power for him to know who he is.

- Goku later said he wanted to see his true ability and says he's the person he expected him to be.

I never Denied he was Kid Boo, and that he had the power of Kid Boo deep inside. I said that He didn't show his ssj3 like power at the Budokai. You saying His rage Burst was=Kid Boo, is like me saying Gohan's burst against Raditz= Ultimate Gohan.

That's not his full potential considering the fact that he'd be the new protector of the Earth. Suggests his potential far surpasses Gohan's, so thus, his full potential is far greater than Pure Boo's strength.

Gohan and the other Kids show no interest in fighting, and Goku and Vegeta are getting old. Oob seems like the best choice. Are you suggesting Oob> Ultimate Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks??lol

He was never expecting to use his SSJ form, as Oob was what he expected. So all your other points are moot. Goku never planned to use SSJ because he expected a level his base could handle. Stop with the strawmen, I've only logically deduced that Goku didn't plan on using SSJ. It's good that you're keeping your responses short now, you'll be contradicting yourself less.

[quote=Cooler|messageid:32867680]The conclusion is he couldn't have been planning on using SSJ, otherwise his two statements don't make sense.

Which is why my explanation makes more sense than: Hey, Goku got over 400x stronger in his base form doing earth training all by himself, and he can now shot Ssj3 Tier opponents with out getting his hair done!!!

Amazing doesn't mean: he is amazing as long as Vegeta and myself don't become Super Saiyans, because then we can one-shot him, therefore he can win the Budokai as long as we both hold back most of our power.

At the end of the day, You have a feeling that Goku didn't plan on using Ssj, and you haven't even mentioned Vegeta. Your feelings on the matter are not required here. They don't matter. they are not facts. My explanation, while not factual, is a lot more Logical than: well, Goku became many times stronger on his base form, even though 7 years of other world training didn't do much for him without unlocking new transformations. But he must be that Godly because I have a feeling!!

We're going in circles. Amazing is a clear reference to power. Nothing indicates Oob was far weaker than he thought he was. Your explantions is full of contradictions.

I never said Oob was not amazing. He just isn't as amazing as expected since he was expected to have a chance at winning the Budokai, but ended up being a guy that Goku had to stop the fight in order to train. Not to mention One-shot.I never denied that Boo was amazing.

Before you say, well it's obvious Cell was holding back.Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

Well, I don't care if it's SPC, Or Regular Cell. Cell means Cell to me. 3 statements say he is on Cell's level, so I just go with that. The fight doesn't matter much to me, since I've showed stronger guys can have a hard time against weaker guys..

Except Cell was suggested to be holding back when there are implications that have Dabura not holding back.

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

His skill is his magic. Gohan is sloppy, falls for all of Dabura's attacks and just attacks head on. That's why Dabura calls him trash and is sure he could win. Gohan's sloppy movements is what screwed him over.

You forgot to put IMO, because all that you are giving me is just that, not facts.

Well, I'm glad you forgive me. I was going to loose so much sleep over you not forgiving me.. Anyway, you and I are like Yoda Vs sidious. Batman vs the joker..we can do this forever..tomorrow I will continue this..

I would Imagine that 7 years of other world training would be more beneficial that earth training. Goku only gained power through 2 extra transformations on other world. What makes you think his base shot up to Ssj3 Tier?

Doesn't get any simpler than this unless you want to go with cruddy Skelter logic which has SSJ3 Goku (EoZ) << Enraged Oob <<< Pure Boo which isn't even suggested in the least.

I didn't say that, the manga did. Goku feels that he might not win against a guy he lost to 10 years ago. What does that tell you??Personal attacks on my logic just shows you have no other cards to play.

Interesting debate. I haven't taken as hard of a look at the end of Z stuff as I could have.

One thing I noticed is that when Oob got angry, in the manga, his eyes turned red, which was the color of Majin Boo's eyes often in the manga.

Well, Kid Boo's, or Oob's eyes are Irrelevant. When the Original manga came out, there was no color anyway. Plus, nobody is arguing that Oob and Kid Boo aren't the same guy. So the red eyes make sense.

So XxSkelterXx how much do you think EOZ goku power increased? Goku say that he train to get stronger than kid buu.

Considering he thought he might have trouble against somebody that he fought ten years ago, and was rivaling, not much.I think when Goku said he will get better, was him perfecting his Ssj 3 transformation.Considering his lack of monstrous gains with 7 years of other-world training, I don't think 10 years of Earth training will help him much.While in otherworld, Goku became about ten times stronger, and that's with 2 extra transformations.Him becomes hundreds of times stronger, on his base form, with nothing but Earth Training is unlikely..If It wasn't for GT, people wouldn't' even think that Oob=Kid Boo=Ssj3 Goku(TEN YEARS AGO)= Base Goku.

This is just a cop-out, and a pathetic one at that.Have you even read the entire 13 pages if this thread?..Anyway, this whole plot determines power is lol worthy, and faulty logic. It's as faulty as all statements are true unless contradicted..lol

XxSkelterXx just curious do you believe that SS3 goku EOZ can 1 shot kid buu?

I don't. Goku thought he MIGHT NOT WIN against the same guy he lost to 10 years ago. I think Goku pretty much tapped out, and the only thing he was able to do, was somehow prevent the Drain from Ssj3 being so severe. Other than that, I don't think he is that much more powerful.

That's speculation. Goku was implied at being able to finish Boo with his full Ssj3 power Amplified with a Kamehameha, or something like that..The fact is that Goku went all out in the fight, while Boo was having the time of his life...Boo should have One-shotted Vegeta, and he didn't, that implies massive messing around..

I guess this is where we think differently, I believe that goku was thinking he be fighting someone stronger than kid buu, while you think that goku is thinking he fight someone = as strong as kid buu.

Kid buu didn't blow up the kaioshin planet so he enjoys fighting but doesn't have the same patience as the other buu.

That's because Kid Boo is just a mindless freak. One moment he blows up the Earth, the next he teleports to the Kaioshin planet to fight, and then decides to go to sleep....See what I mean, he is seriously mentally handicapped.

Moving on to SSJ3, goku said to fat buu that it took goku long to transform since he was not used to SSJ3, just like how goku took long to turn SSJ1 for the first time. It also took gohan long to turn SSJ2 for the first time.

Gohan needs rage to transform, so it makes sense for his to be long and drawn out...But again, how is this relevant to the topic at hand?

If the user is not used to a transformation that means that it can be improved. If techniques can be improved then surely transformation can be improved.

Except that only thing that we only saw mastered was the first Ssj transformation...Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta had Ssj2 for years, and we never saw them mastered..If they didn't master ssj2, what makes you think Ssj3 can?

If kaioken strain and drain can be reduced and improved then surely SSJ3 would be similar. Both Kaioken and SSJ3 are techniques learned from otherworld.

Just because they where learned in otherworld, it doesn't mean they are other-wordly...Gotenks reached ssj3 because he had the raw power to do so..Kaioken was a move developed by a God, yes, but so what???Goku, a low class saiyan learned it in a couple of months..

Gohan may have had SSJ2 for 7 years, but he hasn't train so no way is gohan anywhere close to mastering. As for goku and vegeta there is no way to know how long they had their SSJ2, vegeta power was way behind goku and gohan.

Well, when Goku saw Ssj 3 Gotenks he said that It took him years to unlock it, which kind of hints at Goku achieving Ssj2 rather quickly while in other world..Vegeta is a mystery though.

Its kind of weird that no drain was mentioned about SSJ2 unlike SSJ1 which piccolo mentions in the vegeta vs C18 fight. I might be a bit confuse on this part.

Well, Piccolo never said that Ssj was draining Vegeta. He just said that Vegeta's Stamina is decreasing due to him not having infinite energy reactor... Base Vegeta would have the same problem since he is fighting robots.

A mortal warrior will ALWAYS loose stamina. Super saiyan might make his stamina drop faster, but he's not a android with an unlimited Power supply, sooner or later, he will get tired. That's the same thing 17 told Piccolo during their battle, and they were even.

Oob was stated as being who Goku expected, there is no doubt about that... But Goku thought that Oob might win the Budokai..As we see, Oob is nowhere close to being able to win the Budokai since the Ssjs can one-shot his ass..

So obviously seeing as Oob did turn out to be the guy Goku was expecting, the guy who could win the Budokai then surely Goku couldn't have been planning to use SSJ.

Oh, So just because Cooler says so, Goku was not planing on Using Ssj??...Cooler's word should be good enough for all of us?? Since you have this secret relationship with Goku, and knowing every little thought he has, Where does that leave Vegeta? Was he also planing on not using Ssj?? Because Vegeta can also one-shot Oob without using Hlaf of his full power..

Wrong, you take quotes and twist them until you get what you want of them.. This is you: Oob was as strong as Goku expected, but since Goku expected to fight a guy that could win the Budokai, he was not planing on using ssj..Evidence?? *bleep* evidence, you got my word and that's Good enough.

Also, If Goku powered up so much, why did he not think he could win against a guy that he was even with 10 years ago?? Goku powers up hugely, yet he thinks he can't win against somebody that he thinks will be as strong as a guy he was even with 10 years ago?? Explain that..Or wait, you don't have to..Just tell me what Goku thought about the whole thing, and I will take your word for it..

I have a explanation, goku might have thought that oob was going to be stronger than kid buu.

Maybe, but I don't think so.. Goku thought Oob might be strong enough to beat all of them..That includes Ssj 3 Goku, Ssj2 Vegeta, and Mr.Boo.. All Oob managed to do was overwhelem a base Goku momenteraly, that's it..Oob did so bad that Goku stopped the fight, bribed him, and offered to train him for years...

I personally don't think that EOZ Goku is that much stronger than Boo saga Goku..Why?? Because with 10 years of training, he still didn't think that he could win against somebody who HE THOUGHT BEFORE HE FOUGHT HIM, that was a strong as Kid Boo.Him and Kid Boo we where close, they where rivals..If Goku powered up so much, why was he unsure ov Victory??

I don't doubt Oob has all the potential of Kid Boo, and more. I just think that he didn't even shown a fraction of that power against base Goku at the budokai. There is no way that Oob is equal to Kid Boo, no way at all.

I highly doubt they where fighting at that level to be honest, but I guess that's better than believing that Goku somehow managed to make his base many times stronger, when he couldn't even do that in 7 years of other-world training.

I believe that end of Z goku in SSJ3 can 1 shot kid buu, but lose easily against super buu, I think that is being generous.

The problem I have with that line of thoought, is that Goku tells Mr Satan that he is not sure if he can win against Oob, and he thinks Oob=Kid Boo. So I don't think that any form of Goku can one-shot Kid Boo.

I never said stronger, I said that he thought Oob, being the reincarnation, and the embodiment of Kid Boo, would lead people to believe that Oob and Kid Boo have the same power. It doesn't matter, since Goku was wrong.

The problem is not Goku being over 400x strongrer than he was in the Boo saga. Goku got thousands of times stronger in a span of 10 days back in the saiyan\ Freeza arc.. The problem is BASE GOKU getting that strong in his base form, when his Ssj form didn't even double with 7 years of otherworld training.

I think it's implied that Goku made no significant gains by the end of the Dragonball Z manga. I mean, think about it for one minute. Goku thinks that Oob=Kid Boo, and he still tells Mr. Satan that he might not win.. That right there implies no significant gains.

the Z-Fighters have always tried to avoid using transformations in the tourneys, so it's perfectly reasonable that Goku wasn't factoring SSJ in.

Really, is that why Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Goku and Vegeta all transformed in front of everybody?? Even if I was to believe such baseless Bullshit, why would I believe that Vegeta out of all people would agree to loose to a kid just because he promised Goku he wouldn't go Ssj?Why would Goku think he might not win? Why would Goku be stoked about fighting a guy that he can one-shot without using a quarter of his power?

Ok, now that you showed me evidence that All the saiyans agreed to not transform into Super Saiyans at the previous Budokai, how about showing evidence that said rule existed 10 years later?? How about providing evidence that Vegeta agreed to such rule?? One single quote, and I will agree.

Not only that, but such rule was never made. It was wasn't mentioned, or implied, so as far as I am concerned,no rule existed. I think its just a copout at trying to explain why Oob was such a let down, even Goku was let down.. he was so let down that he stopped the fight, bribed Oob with money, and left for Who knows how many years in order to turn Oob into a worthy opponent.

No Michael, you can't counter that. Just because Piccolo, a namekian reincarnation ended up being stronger than King Piccolo, doesnt mean this reincarnation works the same way.. this reincarnation was set up by Yema, I doubt it works the same.. and base Goku keeping up with Oob implies Kid Boo>>>>>>>>>> Oob

Your comparison doesn't hold up because like you said, Piccolo had to train in order to become as strong as he is. I am not arguing that with enough training Oob can't surpass Kid Boo. My argument is that when he fought Goku he wasn't.

If you think this is best left at agreeing to disagree, then why even bother posting here? When you agree to disagree is because both possibilities are plausible, and you have presented a strong case. You haven't. Nobody has. The argument. here is that a 10 year old rule was in effect, and the evidence towards such argument is non existent. Want to agree to disagree fine, i will stop talking to you about it...I made this thread a while ago, and 17 pages later is still going, so there is a debate potential. You can't present a case thats fine, but im not going to shut my mouth because your english funy dub limited anime knowledge can't come up with a good counter... Go find a thread more your speed.

I ask whats your point because it seems to me that the concept of a forum, or DISCUSSION BOARD eludes you.. You keep bitching and making useless post in every single thread that I drop in... What are you doing here?? You have yet to give an argument thats worthy of listening...

But you've just given us a clip where Goku was hit. How about a shot of the whole fight? As I can remember when they fought Uub still lost though I can't remember if Goku turned SSJ.

Goku never turned Super Saiyan, not that it matters because he didn't need it. He wasn't winning in his base form, but he wasn't loosing either. One thing is clear though, as a Super Saiyan he would have knocked out him out in one hit. Goku being as strong as a Ssj3 in base is rubish.

The problem is that Goku wasn't to confident in fighting Oob and winning. He knew that himself, Vegeta, and Mr Boo where entering, and he wasn't sure that any of them would win. That clearly indicates that he thought he was going to fight a guy as strong as Kid Boo, who he was rivaling 10 years ago, and wasn't sure he could pull of the win..So his gains weren't that astronomical.

I now know that reincarnation doesn't guarantee that the new live form would surpass, but uub is special. Uub even without hard training or learning how to use ki uub is league beyond the Ginyu force the minimum, I don't see the ginyu force being able to push goku with a attack.

I don't quite get what you mean about the Ginyu force, but I get think I get your overall point.

It can go either way to be honest, Goku could of been expecting uub to = kid or goku could of been thinking that uub >>> kid buu and goku might lose tournament, but we never know factually.what goku was thinking.

He was thinking that he might loose to a guy that he was even with 10 years ago.

2. Goku was new to the SSJ3 form in buu saga, with 10 years of training mastering SSJ3 should provide a great boost seeing the body gets used to the transformation and the drain gets reduced. Goku can use the maximum power of SSJ1 thanks to mastering, when its not mastered energy gets wasted by the drain and strain.

That's what he could have meant when he said he would get much better.

Yah, I think you are way to stuck on Piccolo's reincarnation Super Michael. Just because it happened with Piccolo, doesn't mean that the same was kid. A lot things are not the way they used to be, for example, Super Saiyan went from an unique, and incredibly hard rage triggered transformation, to childs play.

like Gogeta and myself said, Piccolo's reincarnation has no business being here. The 2 have nothing to do with each other, so there isn't much to counter Super Michael. These are 2 vastly different things, and that will never change.