Gay Christian

I’ve wrestled for weeks over whether or not I should write and publish this post. This is such an incredibly sensitive subject. I know a few people out there will appreciate what I write here, but I also know to expect that many, many people will feel offended and attacked and hated by what I write. I can’t emphasize enough that I am not writing from a place of hatred but from a place of love that is deeply concerned with the well-being of the people in my life who deal with this.

I feel it is time I speak out on what I believe about gay marriage within the church. I want to make very clear that this post has absolutely nothing to do with legislation, the legalization of same-sex marriage, or the cultural embrace of homosexuality at large. While I do believe God’s Word speaks very clearly on the issue, and God’s Word is always relevant to everyone because Truth is always true, I also know that I cannot reasonably expect those who do not profess faith in Christ to submit themselves to the authority and teaching of Scripture. Professing Christians, however, are another matter entirely. “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. ‘Purge the evil person from among you’” (1 Corinthians 5:12-12).

I will not pretend to have all of (or even most of) the answers. I know that this is a real issue that affects real individual people. I know this isn’t just some political platitude. This is very personal. I know this isn’t just some nebulous issue for “those gay people out there.” This is vitally important for your brother, your daughter, your best friend, you. I get that. I really do. I know what it’s like to want desperately for them to be happy. I know you dread the idea that they may face bullying and depression. These things are profound.

For someone who professes faith in Christ, however, the ramifications of gay marriage are so much more profound than any of these sociological issues.

I’m not going to Bible thump. But I do have to briefly point out that the Bible does teach that homosexuality is sinful in Romans 1. (Yes, I understand that in today’s culture, this statement is on par with saying something like, “I believe white people are superior to black people.” The difference is that the Bible upholds the dignity of all nations, tribes, races, and tongues while it speaks clearly against the immorality of homosexuality.) This passage cannot be explained away as only relevant to the ancient culture, as it is a passage that describes not only specific sinful acts, but the deeper current of the sin nature and the fate of those who suppress the truth of God – even to the point of God giving them up to their sin in judgment. This is a passage that must either be believed or ignored. A choice must be made here. Either God’s Word is truly inerrant and relevant, or this passage is in error and the Bible as a whole cannot be trusted. It is either/or. You cannot have both.

“But,” you may respond, “God made me this way.” I’m very familiar with the “born this way” argument. While I have not yet seen any compelling genetic evidence that a person is born gay, I am willing to concede that this could theoretically be the case. This is irrelevant. The stark reality of the world we live in is the harsh reality of the curse of the Fall. It is a curse that has impacted every corner of creation, which is why the Bible describes all of creation groaning under its weight, awaiting the return of Christ when all things will be made new. In this fallen world, people are born with all kinds of unfortunate circumstances. Some of these are genetic diseases that wreak havoc within the body. Some of these are predispositions to mental illness and sociopathy. Some of these are genetic tendencies toward alcoholism and addiction. And some of these may be oriented to homosexuality even early in life. (Again, I approach this last point only hypothetically.)

I am not insensitive enough to brow-beat you with the word “choice.” I do understand that most LGBT people feel “different” from a very young age and must face a terrifying personal moment of “coming out” and admitting to it at some point, fearing hateful responses and judgmental slurs. I know that I cannot truly imagine what that is like for them.

I do, however, find it curious that we don’t treat alcoholics this way. We don’t laud them as courageous for declaring who they are as alcoholics unless they stand in front of an AA meeting with the purpose of ending their alcoholism and giving up the booze. We don’t march for their right to drink themselves silly. Why don’t we? They were, after all, born that way. It’s not like they chose to be addicts.

While I know that there is a struggle and a stigma, as well as the cultural pressure to embrace, I have to humbly admit that I do not understand how a person who professes Christ can align himself or herself with and defend something that God speaks clearly against and that statistically is harmful to a large percentage of those who participate in it.

Gay marriage takes this one step farther. Here, we need to back up and ask the question: What is Christian marriage? And I don’t mean the pat answer of “a life-long commitment between one man and one woman.” I think that is an important aspect of Christian marriage, but that’s not what marriage is.

Put simply, Christian marriage is a human relationship through which God visibly and tangibly displays the gospel to the world. Christian marriage is a picture of the relationship Jesus Christ has with His bride, the church. Ephesians 5 explains this very well. It is not a passage about how a man can be a dictator in the home and a poor woman should submit while he walks all over her. This is a gross misunderstanding. It is a beautiful description of how a husband is to be a picture of Christ to the world as he loves his wife and raises his children in sacrificial love. It is a tangible illustration through the wife of how the church respects and honors Christ and submits willingly and lovingly to His rightful and good lordship. Paul ties it all together in verse 32: “This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.”

Christian marriage, whatever else it may include, is at its core a picture of how God – who is altogether unlike us – is unified perfectly and intimately with us in the divine marriage of Jesus and the church for all eternity.

When someone who professes faith in Christ embraces homosexuality or makes vows in a same-sex marriage, they make a mockery of this gospel. They make unbiblical vows to commit themselves and their lives to something that grieves God. They are declaring to the world that God is all-together like us and that His primary concern is with our finite and foolish ideas about what we think will make us happy right now. Their entire life becomes a false gospel. I believe John is clear that this calls into question whether their profession of faith is credible, as one who keeps on sinning does not know Christ (1 John 3:6).

I’ve heard homosexuals who profess Christ describe themselves as a “paradox.” This cannot be the case. A paradox is something that seems contradictory but is actually true. (The example in my dictionary is, “The paradox of war is that you have to kill people in order to stop people from killing people.”) Rather, an unrepentant homosexual cannot also credibly profess to actually biblically follow Christ, who commanded the sexually immoral woman to sin no more.

You might be thinking, “Wow, that’s harsh! Be a little more sensitive to people’s feelings!” Yes. This is an issue that demands the utmost compassion. But it is also an issue that requires the truth spoken in love. God declares that this is harmful and deeply inappropriate; that continuing unrepentant in a life of immorality brings His judgment, and that a person within the body who continues in this sin must be cut off from the body until they come to repentance (1 Corinthians 5:9-13). The loving and kind thing to do is to warn a person of coming harm. It would be hateful of me not to speak out.

Honestly, this is where I lack answers. I have no idea what it looks like to wisely counsel someone struggling with same-sex attraction within the church. I believe the church has not handled this well and has even made some tragically bad decisions about how to speak to this issue.

What I do know is that Scripture calls us all to repentance – not only homosexuals, but also heterosexuals who give approval to them (Romans 1:32), heterosexuals who are promiscuous and sexually immoral in other ways, anyone who has looked with lust upon someone who was not their spouse, anyone who is consumed by narcissistic pride, alcoholics and addicts, meddlers and gossips, liars and cheaters, thieves and murderers, those consumed with rage and selfish indignation, those who are impure in their speech, those who disrespect and defy God-given authority. In a word – fallen humanity, of which I am also included in the fullest sense.

Yes, I do want you to be happy. But, despite the American ideal, happiness is really beside the point. For those of us rescued by Christ, God is primarily concerned with our holiness in His Son. Happiness is merely a by-product, and happiness derived from something that grieves God is not truly happiness. It will not fulfill. It can only ultimately empty and destroy.

Repentance is marked by godly grief over our sin, not defensiveness. The sin in our lives should drive us to the cross of Jesus Christ, because the only solution for any of it is His sacrifice, His righteousness, His justification. It is by His stripes we are healed.

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As always, I welcome thoughtful and considerate comments from all points of view. However, I do reserve the right to moderate antagonistic comments.

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8 thoughts on “Gay Christian”

Your post was a thoughtful balance –speaking outward about sin, while also speaking inward. Such is rare. We often focus upon the sins of others while avoiding what Jerry Bridges calls, the “polite sins” of our time. We often think that taking an unpopular stand in culture of calling someone a “sinner” establishes our own righteousness, we in our Christian culture, we give people a pass for arrogance, pride and even more destructive sin. Thanks for your thoughtful post, and the tone of it. Very well said.

Well said, Hugh! Homosexuality is a hot topic right now precisely because it is a sin that is widely accepted and even praised as good and acceptable in our culture. Often we are blind to other sins that get this same status, like the “polite sins” you mention.

Dear S.D.G.,
Forgive me that I do not know if you are male or female, but I can trust that we are one in Jesus Christ. I write to you today as a fervent follower of our Lord and Savior and just happen to be, as the world describes, a homosexual. As you can imagine, this has caused me much grief, as I long to please Yahweh in everything that I do and wish not to fall away into the sinful nature of the flesh. My journey has been difficult one, yet I praise Yahweh for giving me this “thorn in the flesh,” as it has only made me see even more that His Grace is sufficient and His power is made perfect in my weaknesses. I stand on the fact that Yeshua Ha-Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) has paid the penalty for all of my sins and yours on the cross through the power of His mighty blood covenant. His Holy Spirit is my guide and I long to be closer with Him every step I take.

Through my struggles with this unwanted thorn, I longed to be embraced by my Creator. Sadly, His followers condemned me and persecuted me and compared me to murderers and child molesters. Even my own mother told me that the involuntary love I felt towards the same gender was comparable to child molestation and I would burn in eternal judgment if I did not turn from my unwanted desire. I went through reparative therapy, being told that “thousands had successfully stopped being gay.” I was disappointed when it was revealed that “success” was considered having “a minimal reduction in same-sex attractions” and “gay” was defined as “having gay sex” (something I had never done.) Despite this, I fought tooth and nail to be delivered and prayed every night for years that Yahweh would heal me of these desires.

Unlike an alcoholic who has to drink to become addicted, I had this longing for loving companionship without ever engaging it. Unlike a genetic disease, it seemed that God had not healed anyone to turn from gay to straight by a miracle, as He often does with other diseases. I found that those who professed a “change” were admittedly bisexual. I wished I could even be bisexual so I could have the desire for a man and just not choose a woman. I knew I was not given the gift of celibacy, so my options were running out and fast.

I was nearly on the brink of ending my life when The Lord spoke to me through His Word. “Let love be your only debt! If you love others, you have done all that the Law demands. In the Law there are many commands, such as, “Be faithful in marriage. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not want what belongs to others.” But all of these are summed up in the command that says, “Love others as much as you love yourself.” No one who loves others will harm them. So love is all that the Law.” (Romans 13:8-10) and “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” (Acts 10:15.) These verses literally saved my life. Wether my love for the same gender be by creation or the fall, I have been made a new creation in Christ. The enemy sought to destroy me and condemn me. But through these verses, I felt the love of God once more. What came next was totally unexpected…

After years of studying the Holy Word of God, it was revealed to me that there is an alternate translation WITHIN the Scriptures themselves that do not condemn all of homosexuality, but specifically homosexual acts of rape, homosexual acts of shrine prostitution, homosexual acts in idol worship ritual, homosexual acts with child sex slaves, etc. This alternate translation is not a “new liberal theology,” but rather reading the Scriptures word for word in its ORIGINAL language and cultural context. If I were to describe all of these things here, I would be leaving you with a book. So I ask that you read my article on the topic which can be found by clicking on my name icon and visiting the article entitled “Homosexuality in the Bible? – An Alternative Perspective.” (I would leave the link here, but fear this would end up in your spam folder.) In the Word of God it warns, ““If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.” (Proverbs 18:13). So I strongly beseech you to read of this Bible study and pray to be guided by the Holy Spirit to be able to discern the difference between true conviction and personal repulsion of the act which you would not ever naturally do.

I will give one thought on this matter which does not require Hebrew or Greek linguistics. When one thinks upon the story of Sodom in Genesis 19, most see this as Yahweh’s judgment against a whole town of homosexuals. What has been completely overlooked is that the visitors whom the people of Sodom wanted to “know” were angels. Secondly, the residents of Sodom were attempting to have sex with the angels against their will which is, by definition, attempted gang-rape. A nearly identical story can be found in Judges 19 in which the residents of Gibeah attempt to gang rape the male foreign visitor. I encourage you to read this chapter of Scripture to see the parallels which can make the context of Genesis 19 very clear. One should not compare a violent attempted gang-rape of angles to committed gay couples. This is only the beginning. Please read my website for the Bible study on these topics.

So although I will not go on into the alternate translation of these Scriptures here, I would like to reveal “the mystery” of how marriage is a reflection of Christ and the Church. Many times our Christian brethren say that only heterosexual marriage is recognized by God because homosexual marriage does not fit this comparison. The truth is that such a comparison can only be made PERFECTLY CLEAR beside the ANCIENT marriage process in Biblical times. Marriages in Biblical times were conducted much differently than they are done today. Modern Christian marriage consist of the partners looking for a partner, dating/courting, engagement, obtaining a government state marriage license, wedding ceremony by clergy in a church, celebration, and then consummation on a “honeymoon,” usually at some exotic or attractive location. No modern Christian marriage reflects Christ and the church in the same way as the cultural practice of marriage in Biblical times. Please pay close attention to the differences:

1) The first step in ancient Bible-time marriage was for the father to chose his daughters’ husband with the daughters’ verbal consent of agreement. *The act of the father choosing the husband for his daughter is like God choosing His Son for us. The verbal consent of agreement from the bride is like the body of believers agreeing to follow Christ. Note that this is a mutual agreement.*

2) A contract (called a “ketubbah”) was signed between the male and the bride’s father and a dowry payment of 50 shekels of silver was paid to the father for the “bride price.” A cup of wine was shared between the couple from the same cup, sealing the covenant. Once the contract was signed and cup was shared, the couple was completely legally married and the ketubbah was filed at the synagogue. There was a waiting period before co-habitation, sometimes lasting a year or more. *The ketubbah marriage covenant is proof that the body of believers have committed to follow Christ. The dowry payment is Jesus’ payment for our sins. The sharing of the cup is reflective of communion and a symbol of our marriage vow to Jesus. The filing of the ketubbah in the synagogue is a reflection of the body of believers names written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. The waiting period for cohabitation is our life, as we wait to be united with Christ in Heaven.*

3) Third was consummation of the marriage which was performed in the wife’s house. Proof of virginity was proved by a white cloth which had to show blood after consummation and was then shown to the father of the wife. *Consummation is like us coming together as one with Christ with the Holy Spirit within us as believers. This act of consummation could also be represented by Baptism as we chose to follow Christ. The Father accepts us through proof of Jesus’ blood covering our sins. Note that the blood is represented by the wife in this case, as now the two have become one and our righteousness is only made perfect in the eyes of God by the Grace of Jesus’ sacrifice.*

4) Once the consummation was completed and previous virginity was ensured, the last step was the wedding feast of celebration which was done at the husbands house. *As we are risen to be united with God at the Father’s House in Heaven, we celebrate and have the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, as the body of believers (the church) are forever with Christ.*

With this true comparison, we can’t honestly apply modern marriage (straight or gay) to this exact design. If we did, the order would be mixed up and things added that don’t fit. In most modern marriages, the father (represented by God) doesn’t chose the husband (represented by Jesus) for his daughter (represented by the body of believers). Dating or courting don’t fit. We can’t supplement engagement for the the Ketubbah, as this is not done by a contract and engagement can be broken at any time (metaphorically suggesting that Salvation is easily broken by either party.) There were no ceremonies of vows or head of clergy to officiate nor a government license. The modern wedding doesn’t compare, as the ancient marriage came long before consummation. Modern celebration as a reception happens before consummation, which would be like celebrating in Heaven before we unite with Christ as forgiven believers on earth. Please note that I am not trying to say that modern Christian marriage has no comparison to Christ and the church, but rather showing exactly how the act of ancient Biblical marriage custom PERFECTLY reflects Christ and the church.

With this considered, we can find great value in reflecting the cultural marriage of Biblical times with Christ and the church. But if we try to condemn same-gender relationships based on “lack of comparison,” than we must also condemn all modern heterosexual marriages as not perfectly reflective. I am obviously not suggesting that we do this… I am only showing how marriage custom in the Biblical culture is HOW it perfectly reflects Christ and the Church, so we should not condemn gay marriages based on a difference in gender-paring.

Aside from this, there are still major comparisons of modern Christian marriage to Christ and the church that always remain throughout time:
-Christ and the church are monogamous while Christian marriage is monogamous.
-Christ and the church are eternal while Christian marriage is life-long (“eternal” to earthly standards).
-Christ and the church are committed while Christian marriage is committed.
-Christ and the church are united in a covenant while Christian marriage is united in a covenant.
-Christ loves the church while Christian marriage is loving.
-Christ forgives the church while Christian marriage is forgiving…
-Most importantly, Christ serves God with the church and Christian marriage serve God together.

These things that remain are applied to ancient AND modern Christian marriage and do not require gender differences to be compatible with Christ and the Church.

It is no wonder that homosexual marriage is not mentioned in Scripture, as we are a very small portion of the population. Neither is an instruction on hermaphrodite marriage given (those born with both male and female sexual organs.) Who are they allowed to marry? I am convicted that Biblical heterosexual marriage is a blueprint for same-sex couples as well. Just as the Message of Salvation was given “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile,” the blueprint for marriage as God centered, life-long committed union was given first to the heterosexual (majority), then to the homosexual (minority) who wish to follow it. The most important thing in any marriage is to be God centered and grow as believers together. This can be done with Christians of either gender.

In Biblical times, the majority of the God-believing community were Jews. The Gentiles were the outsiders, yet a minority of Gentiles (non-Jews) believed in God despite their rejection from the Jews. It was the majority Jew belief that ALL Gentiles were unclean abominations, essentially cast out from God. They believed within themselves that only the Jews were chosen by God to believe. Only a few Jews believed that Salvation was open to the Gentiles as well, and this was in fact the true message (refer to Isaiah 56 and Acts chapter 10.) This Biblically demonstrates that “the majority” of believers aren’t always correct. Likewise, it seems that the majority of contemporary Christians believe that gays cannot be Christians, nor does God bless a same-sex marriage. Is this correct because they are in the majority in this belief? Or have they confused their personal repulsion of the sex act for conviction? Throw in the modern “traditional” translation of Scripture and it appears to justify the belief despite the contextual and linguistic evidence to the contrary.

I feel that many heterosexual Christians are innocently unaware that an alternate way to translate this topic even exists within the Scripture. Yet when confronted with this knowledge, many heterosexual Christians say “what does this have to do with me?” and fail to do the research. The consequences of this lack of wisdom affects all. We are told to bear good fruit as Christians, but condemnation of homosexuals has caused bad fruit, not only towards the homosexuals themselves, but other potential believers who see the injustice. Yeshua proclaims that we are no longer all commanded to procreate, but only to those whom it has been given (read Matthew 19). The earth is already filled, yet we are still called to be fruitful. So now let us go forth in the earth and multiply in fruitfulness by multiplying believers. This cannot be done when one shuts the door of Heaven on those who seek it. Remember that in the new creation, none will be married or be given into marriage. Therefore, if gender is not relevant in the perfect sinless new creation, than why should we seek only to reflect the first creation which was vulnerable to corruption? As I stated in the beginning, we are told “we are no longer male and female, but one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28). The most important thing all of us can do as human beings is to know and serve our Creator by accepting the sacrifice of His Son and spreading this Good News to others. How sad is it when one desires this, but are turned away by the very ones who seek the same thing.

I know your words are out of love, and this is why I come to you with these things without any judgment, but only a desire to share with you what I have been so blessed to be revealed. You mentioned feeling apprehensive to post this. I feel that everything happens for a reason and I was led to read your words and write to you here, I pray that regardless of your views, The Lord will bless you with increasing knowledge of His inherent and relevant Word so that you continue to be a messenger of light to all who read your words.
Your sister in Christ,
Moanti

Once again I ask your forgiveness for not responding sooner. Your comment, and the articles on your site, take a lot of time to read, consider, research, and ponder. My time is very limited and I have a lot of responsibilities, so I am only able to do this in snippets. I still haven’t been able to plum the depths of your articles, but I do promise to continue reading and researching.

Thank you so much for sharing your heart with me. It takes a lot of courage to be so vulnerable with someone who has expressed an opinion that is contrary to what you hold dear. I am incredibly honored that you felt that I was worth dialoging with, and I do not take it lightly. In that vein, I am so sorry for the incredible difficulty you have faced in your life with this issue. While I can try to imagine and put myself in your shoes, I also know that I do not have an experience like it to truly empathize with. I only hope that in discussing these things with you, I will always respond in grace, love, and compassion – even if and when we disagree – and not add to the judgmentalism and persecution that you have been targeted with.

It seems clear to me from all of your writing that you genuinely do seek to honor the Lord and follow His Word; we simply disagree on how clear God’s Word is on this specific subject. I have taken your challenge from Proverbs very seriously and have prayed that God’s Spirit would work conviction and discernment in both our hearts as we continue to study out His Word on this.

If I may ask a couple of (somewhat personal) questions, I wondered about a couple of things you said about your own personal experience wrestling with your homosexuality. You use the term “thorn in the side” several times to describe this reality for you. Why do you think of your homosexuality as a thorn? Is this due to something wrestling within your own conscience or does it have to do with society’s reaction? And, as you grow in your conviction that the Scriptures uphold homosexual marriage, do you think of your homosexuality more and more as a thorn or less and less this way?

The other question I have for you is how you came to believe you were not called to celibacy? I ask this question with hesitancy because I know it is incredibly personal. But I wondered whether this conviction was based on a personal feeling or a sense of peace within yourself, or based on personal wants and desires that you feel need to be fulfilled on earth, or based on something written in the Bible that made it clear to you that you are not called to celibacy? I ask this because I was personally very convicted at a Bible study I recently participated in when the teacher pointed out that we should never underestimate our ability to deceive ourselves into justifying our sin by saying we “have a peace” about it after prayer. I do NOT mean to project this on to you, but I know that I have been guilty of this in my own life and I know others who have justified away what are clearly sins (adultery and theft specifically) this way. I ask this regarding celibacy specifically in light of what Jesus teaches in Matthew 19:12 – that some are born eunuchs, some are made eunuchs by men, and some choose to become eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom, ending with a call for those to receive this teaching who can. This teaching seems to indicate that some people may be called to a life of celibacy even though they would choose otherwise if they could. Whether this could be applied to homosexuality, though, I do not know. I am curious to know your thoughts on it, if you would be willing to share.

I also say this out of the context of a conversation I had with a straight woman who did not feel called to celibacy and was in anguish because she was not able to find a husband. In this case, I believe the Bible is clear that until God provides a spouse with whom a sexual relationship is biblically appropriate, a person is called to celibacy. The feelings and desires should spur that person on to trusting in God to provide for their needs. In other words, I believe the Bible should inform our understanding of the world and our experiences, not the other way around. When the Bible and my experiences seem to contradict, I need to submit to God’s Word in faith and trust God even when it is extremely difficult. If homosexuality is in fact not biblically supported, then I think this would apply there too.

So we come back to whether the Bible allows for or supports committed homosexual unions.
I spent a lot of time reading your articles. My degree is actually in Biblical languages and my professional experience is in Bible Translation. I’ve worked a lot with Hebrew and Greek and with translation theory and methodology. So bring on the linguistics! I love it! 🙂 Having said that, this is an area where I am still working on your word studies snippet by snippet.

Based on what I have already studied and the time I have been able to spend considering the alternative translations you present, I must say I still disagree with your conclusions. I’m trying to see it, but I just don’t. The alternative translations you present have very little linguistic and historical support that I have been able to find. I will grant that the translations are within the realm of linguistic and semantic possibility, but they seem incredibly unlikely considering normative use of the words and historical understanding of the passages they are in.

Granted, majority consensus is not a definitive proof for correctness. (I cite the medieval catholic church, for example.) However, an extreme majority consensus within the academic and theological community from several different traditions and theological backgrounds over against a very small minority interpretation limited to one socio-theological group does give me pause. Could all these people be wrong? Sure. But before I jump there, I want to be sure, and I’m just not.
(I also want to just quickly caution on the “secret meanings within the Hebrew letters” that you discuss in several posts on your blog. While interesting and perhaps fun to play with, this method of understanding Hebrew is primarily a form of mysticism, made popular by groups like the followers of Kabbalah. This is not an authoritative method of translating or interpreting Scripture and has the potential to be incredibly misleading. Moreover, Paul often writes to bring mysteries to light, to expose the secret things that have been hidden. The gospel is open and available and visible and ready to be understood, not hidden to all but a mystical minority who somehow receive the honor to see into secret things – like the mystical cults Paul wrote against in ancient Rome.)

As to your description of the wedding customs of the ancient Hebrews, thank you for sharing what you have discovered about these beautiful ceremonies. I know I’ve read about them before, but I had forgotten a lot of the beautiful details of those customs. Having said that, while we can learn about the imagery of the wedding feast at the return of Christ from a study of wedding customs in his day, my post was not primarily concerned with Christian weddings but with Christian marriage. You have a beautiful list of what biblical marriage entails and how the relationship between Christ and the church mirrors that. But I think your list is incomplete, which is why I discussed Ephesians 5 in my post. There is an aspect in Paul’s teaching on marriage in that chapter of the profound difference between a husband and a wife in how they relate to each other within the marriage relationship – a reciprocal role of love and respect, sacrifice and honor, that requires a fundamental difference in essence between the two involved. I am curious how this aspect of biblical marriage – and the shadow of our relationship to Christ as the head of the church – would be worked out in a homosexual union. Would there be an arbitrary decision made for which partner fills the role of “husband” to love and protect and sacrifice and which partner fills the role of “wife” to respect and trust and honor? I would love your thoughts on this particular passage too, if you would be willing 🙂

As to the incident in Sodom (and later in Gibeah), I agree that there was a lot more going on than just homosexuality. Sodom was destroyed for an entire culture of sin and decadence, a hostility toward guests, the ruthless nature of a desire to openly gang rape the two angels (whom, however, the Sodomites would have seen as men, not understanding they were angels), and the overall defiance of Yahweh as God and embrace of the perverse idolatry of the surrounding cultures. This is why I did not use these passages but rather focused more on what Scripture has to teach on what marriage is, and not simply on the perverse sexual actions of rape and incest in an episode like these.

Finally, the issue of the Gentiles. (With this, I also noticed you quoted Acts 10:15 at the top of your site.) I do not think this applies to homosexuality. The Jews excluded the Gentiles not because they thought that Gentileness (if I can coin the term) was inherently sinful but because Gentiles were inherently unchosen. The Jews were the chosen people of God, they were the ones who received His Word. They were the ones who had the prophets and saw the miracles. It was through them that the Messiah would come. They did not understand that they were chosen to be priests – to call the Gentile nations to worship of and trust in Yahweh. When Peter has the vision declaring that God has made all foods clean and not to reject what he has made clean, it is in the context of his immediate calling to go to the Gentile household of Cornelius to preach the gospel and baptize them into the community of believers. There is no such declaration for homosexuality, and I think it would be an inappropriate stretch to apply it definitively to homosexuality. Likewise, “there is neither man or woman” in Galatians 3:28 does not do away with gender distinctions or roles, but does away with exclusion based on these distinctions when it comes to justification before God through Jesus. This is in the culture where the Temple had a Court of Women and a Court of Gentiles that purposefully excluded women and Gentiles from participating in the worship that went on in the inner courts of the Temple. (Notably, there was no “Court of Homosexuals.”) When it comes to the cleansing and justifying of believers under the blood of Christ, it is available to all sorts of people.

Yes, it is also available to homosexuals, who – like everyone who comes to Christ – are called to repentance, to renewing and transformation through the Spirit of God, are called to leave the life of sin and pursue holiness, who are called to trust God’s Word even when our experiences and feelings don’t seem to agree.

At the end of the day, I think it is so very important to dig into God’s Word, to dialog and study these things so that we know what is pleasing to God and live according to it. And with that I promise you I will continue to study and consider and search out the answers, submitting always to God’s Word. If I can be shown from the Bible that I am wrong, I will change. But the bottom line for me is the truth in love. There has to be both. You pointed out the importance of love. Yes! As far as I understand God’s Word now, I cannot in good conscience and faith affirm homosexuality as biblically approved in truth. But that is not a hill I’ll die on. I will die on the hill for the homosexuals (and anyone else) I know to hear the gospel and come to the love and forgiveness and transformed life in Christ.

Having been bitterly “fighting” with Moanti on her blog on this subject, trying to call her to reason, to obedience to God’s Word, bible and most, to JESUS Authority on the question of Godly “sexuality” and “Marriage” as she is a self-professed “Christian”…

I am so glad to find your answer here, to her, succeeding, where I probably have failed…

God bless, I thank you so much, and I am sad to conclude, I am cocnerned for ehr as a “friend”, but I must leave this woman in her sin as she chose it, she had the opportunity to read your great informations but not offered, furtehr dialogue with you, and continues in her way of creating and teaching a false doctrine that is embracing of homosexuality within the body of Christ…

Which is an awful sin, worst than “gay” or “lesbian” sex in my honest, humble opinion to spread false doctrine in support of those behaviors, actions, MORAL CHOICES for self-justification purpose… I must consider her a “heathen” then and treat her accordingly… God judge her.

◄ Matthew 12:37 ►

New American Standard Bible
“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

I pray for all, including Moanti and anybody to come to the Cross for healing, and shelter from God’s due wrath for our overwhelming sinfulness…

Thank you so much for your encouraging words! It’s nice to have positive feedback once in a while when you mostly receive negative feedback 🙂

I am glad you have pursued discussion with Moanti on the subject. Unfortunately, this is an issue that is so much deeper than the mere symptom of bedroom activity. There is a deep heart issue – and it is summed up well in the phrase “Gay Pride.” There is a deep and profound pride that accompanies the homosexual lifestyle, a pride that says, “I can ignore God’s teaching and follow my own heart. Only God can judge me, and he won’t because he loves me no matter what.” Yes, God is the only supreme judge, and yes God is love. But his love is rooted in his justice and righteousness and truth. If we defy that, we should expect his righteous judgement – which is a terrifying thing to face. It is why we so desperately need the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and the conviction of the Spirit to draw us to repentance over our sin – most importantly the sins we “enjoy.”

Sadly, Moanti never responded, and I sincerely would have loved to continue discussion with her. There is a point where it is wise, though, to move on. All we can do is proclaim the Truth of God’s Word. We do not have the power to change the human heart. That power lies with God alone.

I’d encourage you to continue to pray for the conviction and repentance of homosexual friends, even though you may have reached a point where constructive discussion is no longer possible. I’d also encourage you to consider Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. We ARE in fact to judge those within the church, but we are also to reach a point where – if they refuse to demonstrate repentance – we move on and do not even associate with them, so as not to provide them with approval for their sin and not to outwardly appear to the world to be giving approval.

Long answer, but all of that to say, I appreciate your comment and pray that God will continue to give wisdom to his Church as we tread through this culture battle we find ourselves in.

Thank you for your steadfast reply, and your really “Christian” way of dealing with this subject.

I am really impressed and must learn from you, as you defending God’s Truth with gentleness and respect, with true Grace!

Moanti…

I notice your answer to her comment was 2 month after hers, eventually she have not been checking back here, and missed your message… Probably.

Yes, I have spend months pursuing intense, thorough discussion with her, trying to narrow her real stance on the matter…. Because she is evasive about it, for “newcomers”, “outsiders” it is unclear ash she uses religious terms so much, to cover her motivations, which in fact are sipply a hit above the seculars, she is seeking approval for homosexual behavior (and “gay marriage”) within Christianity for”faithul” gays and lesbians”…

Problem is, said individuals may be “faithul” between themself, to each other but they are not faithful, not loyal, not keeping, not trusting and obeying God’s Word and Will about this issue, of practicing, openly or privately iving homosexuality to be a SIN of sexual immorality among the others, it is forgivable but then, one must want to be forgiven….

I know, I am aware and udnerstand, agree t is not cool, not nice to speak of an “absent” person, but the fact is, this one person is forwarding herself as a Christian on her public blog and this is leaving her open to criticism from her peers, in this case, from me a fellow believer and follower, disciple of Christ Jesus…

Criticism is not judgment, I always tried to be helpful to lead her back “home”, to the actual Christian doctrine and pointing out to her (and equally importantly, warning her readers “DO NOT BE DECEIVED”!), the way you say it, her claims and arguments to be “incredibly unlikely”, really far fetched, and inappropriately stretched, unconvincing for me but dangerous for the gullible, not rooted in God’s TRUTH, her rewriting of the Bible passages dealing with “homosexuality” conveniently adapted to her subjectivity, and really, to her “homosexuality”, lesbianism….

But I am uneducated in “scholarship”, sadly and also, I am a French man, my English lacks vocabulary and nuances that you and her could make use…

I feel… The “religious forum”, the “Theological arena” debates, words fights, wars are too much for me…. I am a simple, humble believer and follower, disciple of Christ and I am “poor in spirit” in the sense of human intelligence, so far…. I am trying to improve my lack of knowledge, reading very much but I am verys elctive with my sources!!

Her interpretation of the main “clubber” passages are all very tedious and obviously manipulative, going for “temple sex” and “idol worship”, never valid and no way speaking of, for the “committed” homosexual acts and “persons”…

The most ridiculous, her equating “unnatural relations” from Romans 1 with “heterosexual anal sex within the context of idol worship” to elude lesbianism from Scripture…

(Please note if you care to read me, my comments with Moanti and others there, I used the “online” names of “Xavier” (my real one name), “Anthony” (my real brother name), “X…..” and lastly “Christian57” to participate to her blog….)

Another article she stands for “gay and lesbian sex” to be natural because men have prostate down there, and women have clitoris up there, contradicting her previous argument….

“The word in this case being “unnatural.” As stated in my other article, women do not have a prostate gland, therefore if we want to say that anal sex is unnatural for a man with a woman, than we could do so…”

The two main quotes you properly debunked, dismantled here with the Truth (and GRACE!!) of GOD in your reply to Moanti’s comment, appearing to be her defensive reaction, reply to your thoughful, caring, loving article, , Her use, relying on Scripture passages still the headline of ehr blog, quoting Acts 10:15 and Galatians 3:28 in favor of her “gay (lesbian) crusade”, are typical of her argumentation…

It make me so, so sad…. Powerless to help her out of this?

Meg….

Galatians 3:28 is being used, currently, at this very moment I am writing to you by many “pro-gay” activists, to forward the idea, God does abolish gender disctinction in Christ, this is taught by many, many people around the world “online” and socially, in this cultural WAR, no other word, term can fit and describe what is actually going on, against “our” genuine Christianity….

A simple Google search will provide a full list of current, false teachers using this passage of Godly, Holy, Biblical Scripture in favor of LGBTQ behaviors within the Church, the body of Christ believers…LGBTQ people are welcome the same as any other person, but not “gay” behaviors which are tolerated by compassion, but changes to Holiness are expected by that compassion, meaning changes to same-sex friendships are advisable to, for people experiencing new, enjoying wanted, or suffering unwanted SSA instead of plain homosexual “romantic” or “sexual” relations, relationships, NOT necessarily changes to “heterosexuality”, this is exteremely damaging to them against their will, evidently and only advisable in the specific case it is the person very own desire, leading them to this God blessed road….

The false equating of “homosexuality” with “heterosexualtiy” by activist in our socail and political medias occuring day in day out for years, creates false dichotomy, duality, oppostion, … The opposite of “homosexuality” is not “heterosexuality”…. The opposite of “homosexuality”, is HOLINESS… Amen.

This has been said often, but it is true to be stated once more….

I am sorry, this is so long, my comment, to you….

I pray, I am not overstaying my welcome…?

I am really, REALLY glad to find an “ally” in fellow Christians in this harsh, bitter debate for “the truth”, I am disappointed by Moanti because I trusted her to be my “sister in Christ” a whole year, but my last discussion with her have led her to admit, she does not see the practice of homosexuality as a sin, to be morally wrong “under certain conditions”, and “gay marriage” is also “God-blessed” to her, under this tired, old, re-hashed “God centered, monogamous, life-long, caring, loving, committed homosexual relationship” card supposed to trump God’s Word on the inherent sinfulness of this behavior no matter who, where, and why..

Why..? Because men are not women, women are not men, men are not for men, women are not for women, “homosexuality” is damaging and dishonoring the necessary, vital gender difference and their very own, GOD GIVEN DIGNITY and PURPOSE…

No matter who, where and why… Amen.

Why these people can not aknowledge, understand, agree with this, genuine,a dn simple truth..? 😦

It really sadden me….

This subject is really touching me personally, not because I want her loss or her harm, but because I genuinely care for her, I know she is very wrong, siding with the “enemy”. acting from “within” the body of Christ…

This both saddens me, and infuriates me…

It is effectively best for me to avoid further contact with this woman, person any more, I am at the end of my kindness and compassion with her willful stubborness, deceived and deceiving others; though I do pray for her eventual change of ehart, and well being with our God….

You could contact her on her blog, leaving a comment there… If you want.

Her web of deceitful lies, are willful, controlled by her very own, “homosexuality”, lesbanism, It is as you say her “gay pride” driving her, not the Holy Spirit of our God, it is real, Meg….. Frightening!!

Her knowledge and study of the original Hebrew is very “mystic” in itself, she believes in God blessing, working to reveal her “hidden meaning” in Scripture that she ought to spread the world over, drew her to stand on, and for her intellectual superiority against me, over me at least as far as I can witness, in my discussion with her, and anyway, she does rely on the plurality of opinions manifest in Acts 10:15 in spite of my own warning, this talks about believers new freedom in Christ to eat what was designed, identified “unclean” food before by the Mosaic law and their, our freedom to observe, worship the Sabbath day or not, it does not function, not work, not apply, not concern the moral “laws”….

I could not adress her going on with “no male and female but one in Christ” and “no marriage in Heaven, after the resurrection” arguments…. I had my nerves, consumed by my time on her blog, with other readers and commenters sometimes interfering, adding to the chore of trying to help this woman, out of her self-deceit….

I quote myself from a comment on her blog, adressing the “gay” label, really a TITLE, giving entitlement to those self-identifying and using this “victim status” as the tip of their spear against our LORD, still His very heart pierced, bleeding, wounded by such people masquerading, quietly and softly poisoning the well with sophisticated lies, or vociferating other, foreign, FALSE doctrines, wishes for themselves better than these of GOD’s, suffering the martyr as He was on the Cross, for our, and THEIR sins…

“My motivation was, is really to reason Moanti out of her self-deception, but I am now letting go of this… To be honest, maybe there is some egotistical motivation in my “work” here, my “heterosexual” pride, to “conquer” this “lesbian” woman, winning her back to our common God…? I know God loves us as we are, not to change us, it is we who do the changes, because God loves us first…

If Moanti does not aknowledge the homosexual behavior to be sinful, as a fellow professing Christian believer, she is in error and serve the devil in the end, a false god of her own making who condones, not condemns homosexuality, and promotes the evil, political “gay agenda” within the church…. I feel it really was my God’s call, my “Christian duty” to challenge her so much on this, for her own sake…. Amen.

I am conflicted by my compassion for Moanti and “gay people” well being with God, sincerely, but at the same time, I know and can not pretend on this, I know by my God Holy Spirit of Truth, this is a man-made and a manipulaltive contemporary “concept” to lock people in a so-called “orientation”, creating dependency to social sub-identities, and pride in ideas of inherent legitimacy to take what’s still not meant for us by nature, and by God’s Word….”

I quote my words, on the problem to differentiate “gay orientation” and “gay behavior”, the latter still engaging FULLY one’s moral responsiblity, CHOICE to engage, indulge, lead or submit oneself to these actions, “homosexual” practices nonetheless….

“To conclude my comment, God is not homophobe, and you do well, we all must do and say it, orientation is not a sin, as there is no unvolontary sin. But if one happen to engage in homosexuality in actions or in thoughts (fantasies) on a regular basis, that is a real threat and an evidence they are not serving God..

God has never approved of indiscriminate sexual activity outside of the marriage relationship in any age of human history. Key word is indiscriminate. Homosexuality is not special to earn a licence to sin and Scriptures arranged for it to fit as rigtehous, as God alrerady judged that matter as sinful. Simply and clearly, pre-marital and extra-conjjugal sex are unacceptable to God, and for a Christian. We have to deny ourselves to follow Christ, the homosexual lifestyle is going the other way, a narcisstic way taking attributes of self for one’s love.. Taking a member of the same gender for ourself.. How will God judge such a person if they do not repent and acknowledge their wrong doing. I fear and pray for them.. Sin has a lot to do with self deception and auto suggestion.. The more you think you are set some way, the more you believe it and become it.. The less our God of wonders can transform the person as their faith is directed (projected) in one’s own beliefs, not rooted in the Word of God, dwelling from within a good heart..”

(This was last year 2014 also at Summer time, when I first came across Moanti’s website…)

And my very own, humble “analysis” of Romans 1, with the support of the Holy Spirit, guiding my words…

“One deeper answer, the Biblical term of “idol” adresses anything or anyone, inanimate object or living subject inappropriately receiving the worship God commands His People to give to….

Since all prohibition of sexual activity takes root, derives its reason of being from the BEST cause of God’s Will to protect His GIFT of sexual intimacy for the Crown of His Creation, the Human couple, the enjoyment and blessing of sex designed and destined EXCLUSIVELY to the married spouses, one man and one woman, the one and only, declared exclusive Godly Marriage instituted by God in Genesis and confirmed by our Lord Jesus Christ during His ministry, on our Earth…..

Since a sexual relation litterally means partners worshipping each other intimately…

Since every human person, man and woman is designed with the GOD GIVEN POWER TO CREATE LIFE, pro-creator with GOD…

Since Paul denounces in Romans the outside, Pagan “world”, culture serving the creature instead of the Creator…

Then do the math, one person challenging, opposing God’s design of sex as His gift for married spouses, refusing to potentially, eventually GIVE LIFE to a new human being together, refusing to worship the procreative partner sexually in Godly Marriage becquse that is what sex is alla bout, such atttiude is leading one to…. ?

To serving oneself, seflishly, and very likely, to experience homosexual lust, “homosensibity” taking one for GOD, and then, to homosexual acts, to homosexuality…

One fact…Narcissism is impossble to evacuate from homosexual relations, taking for object of one’s love attributes of one self, even if they are also in another being.. Ie, masculinity, feminity, penis, vagina, body shape of the man or woman, strenght, softness, etc.. Indeed, homosexuality not only has idolatry for root as Paul revealed by the Holy Spirit insight, homosexuality IS idolatry in and of itself, in denying the other sex VITAL IMPORTANCE, THE OPPOSITE GENDER COMPLEMENTARY MEANING…

Am I inspired by the Holy Spirit too, to develop and share this insight on the basis of Paul’s account recorded in Sacred Biblical Scripture…?

Yes I am not speaking for my selfish gain, but for my God, to help and save.. Amen.

Paul,draws this PERFECT parallel between idolatry and homosexuality, same-sex attaction derives from the self as evil coems from within, the desire and will to worship one’s own gender and sex, is not from God or it would NEVER be denounced constistantly over Old and New Testaments….”

I am very sorry, this is long, I am also very sorry it seems I am complaining to you about my disappionting, decing “sister in Christ”, but I am really affected, and really, really happy to find your fantastic insight and answer to her,; on the quote she uses, Galatians 3:28

This is how I could find your own blog, Meg, through Goggle searching these words :

“we are no longer male and female, but one in Christ Jesus.”

Thank you Meg, I am also glad to give you positive feedback, to your way of dealing with other, fellow professing “Chrisitans” (but are they followers, too..? For, even the devil and demons, evil spirits believe in God…) and you really are a new inspiration to me, a new model in Christ for me.

You do act with Christian Grace and Truth, i must learn from you, so much!! 🙂

Do take care, I will spend more time browsing and reading your articles, with the comforted mind and soul, you are not spreading false teahings but standing for and sharing, genuine Christinanity.

My next read will be your article, treating of Jeovah’s Witnesses because, they are coming to my home, regularly and I really like to read most of their “Watch Tower” issues, but I know it is, a sect and this, their teachings are really to take with a heavy grain of salt….

God bless repentant,forgiven sinners in His Son Jesus-Christ. abundantly!!