I think there was a climbing accident/fatality several years ago that involved a rope that was unknowingly weakened by exposure to car battery fumes.

It was an injury and it involved a climber who decked in a gym from rope failure. The climber placed the rope on the ground in the parking lot. When the rope was on the ground it came into contact with sulfuric acid on the ground. "Car battery fumes" is mostly just evaporating water and hydrogen. The liquid in automotive batteries is typically a mixture of 30% sulfuric acid and 70% distilled water. Overtime the water in the battery can evaporate, but sulfuric acid does not really evaporate. That is the reason why automotive batteries that are low in electrolytic fluid should be refilled with water, not battery acid. When voltage and current is applied to the battery from the alternator, small hydrogen bubbles are produced in the electrolytic fluid mixture causing a buildup of hydrogen gas in the battery's cells. The hydrogen gas is vented into the atmosphere or filtered through a hydrogen filter. But the hydrogen is not really the problem, it is the sulfuric acid. That is what will weaken a rope and that is what caused the rope failure in the example above. It is for that reason that you should never set your get on anything in the engine bay or on the ground in a parking lot.

I asked my husband about this and he suggested I write the following

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

yeah, dog bones are synonymous with nylon runners, just a specialized version. the black diamond ones you can just slide the biners out of the sling. They may have rubber inserts on one side that help hold the rope end biner in place, so those take a bit more work, but they can be slid out, or you can cut them since you're throwing those away anyway.

Taking the story at face value. If you are being up front then I would suggest that what you really need timespiral, is not any gear, but someone who knows how to use it and can share the info, or an organized series of classes. Maybe both.

I took three half day lessons with an instructor (who was incredible!) and I absolutely believe that I have a lifetime of learning ahead of me. Isn't there always more to learn?

Thanks for the advice to hire professional help (but when is that not good advice?).

I was anxious to get my own gear, walked into a bizarre situation on Craigslist, and am now trying to make heads or tails of my hasty decision. So far I think I've received some sound advice and I'm very appreciative of it.

I took three half day lessons with an instructor (who was incredible!) and I absolutely believe that I have a lifetime of learning ahead of me. Isn't there always more to learn?

Thanks for the advice to hire professional help (but when is that not good advice?).

I was anxious to get my own gear, walked into a bizarre situation on Craigslist, and am now trying to make heads or tails of my hasty decision. So far I think I've received some sound advice and I'm very appreciative of it.

I understand that feeling:-) Sounds like your head is right then. What I've seen in my 40 years of doing this is that most of the danger of starting this sport is that people do not know what they don't know. They know enough to get themselves hurt or killed. The advice you received upthread is good and I'd trust all the biners, nuts and cams. If you sell the 4 axes you'll probably make your money back, put them on Mountain Project in the classifieds.

Let me add more. I would never lead on your ropes, but I would immediately wash them and all the soft goods inc. rope bags (cold water with woolite on delicate, hang out to dry) and use them for anchors for top roping. Having seen a rope break on a kid rappelling, I don't take my ropes for granted any more.

Next, see if there are any classes at a local college or climbing club for climbing, it will be much cheaper than paying for an instructor or guide. Then look for the most experienced dude you can find and hang on him like a ramora on a shark, invite him out, invite yourself in, buy the beer, buy the gas, carry the weight (or at least offer).

I took three half day lessons with an instructor (who was incredible!) and I absolutely believe that I have a lifetime of learning ahead of me. Isn't there always more to learn?

Thanks for the advice to hire professional help (but when is that not good advice?).

I was anxious to get my own gear, walked into a bizarre situation on Craigslist, and am now trying to make heads or tails of my hasty decision. So far I think I've received some sound advice and I'm very appreciative of it.

I understand that feeling:-) Sounds like your head is right then. What I've seen in my 40 years of doing this is that most of the danger of starting this sport is that people do not know what they don't know. They know enough to get themselves hurt or killed. The advice you received upthread is good and I'd trust all the biners, nuts and cams. If you sell the 4 axes you'll probably make your money back, put them on Mountain Project in the classifieds.

Let me add more. I would never lead on your ropes, but I would immediately wash them and all the soft goods inc. rope bags (cold water with woolite on delicate, hang out to dry) and use them for anchors for top roping. Having seen a rope break on a kid rappelling, I don't take my ropes for granted any more.

Next, see if there are any classes at a local college or climbing club for climbing, it will be much cheaper than paying for an instructor or guide. Then look for the most experienced dude you can find and hang on him like a ramora on a shark, invite him out, invite yourself in, buy the beer, buy the gas, carry the weight (or at least offer).

Good luck!

Awesome tip about the local colleges, but being in Florida I find that chance to be slim, but I will look. There is a local rock climbing gym called Vertical Ventures that I plan on checking out soon.

Will you elaborate a little more about the top roping anchors? I've only ever climbed in one location; Kalymnos, Greece, and they were all sport climbs so at the top of each route there were to anchors, with chains, connected to two opposing biners. Once you made it to the top you clicked in to both biners and that was it, then you came down.

Will you also elaborate on how to wash the rope? I'm very nervous about rope care; it being so critical to not getting dead. You're talking about hand washing, right?

But I understand that some people create top roping anchors using trees, or bolts, or other things, but will you see that sort of thing on a sport climb or is that more typical for a trad climb?

My plan is to find some local professionals/enthusiasts and learn a lot more. I'm far from feeling confident trying any type of outdoor climbing on my own. I suppose I will just know when I'm ready; meaning, if I have to ask, I'm not ready.

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

I suggested we chop up bits of rope and experiment. He said 'no'

Not sure what exactly your chemistry question is, but the story about the rope breaking was reported first-hand either here or on Supertopo. Analysis of the rope showed traces of acid, but it could not be determined how it happened.

Batteries should not emit significant quantities of either sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide in normal use, else we would all have a corroded hole on our car hood (when liquid level is low, you add only water, not acid), but it can easily be spilled during removal etc, especially in older style batteries.

The chemistry term, "strong acid" does not refer to concentration, it describes the ability of an acid to dissociate, even dilute sulfuric acid will damage nylon.

What is so scary about this is that if exposed to sulfuric acid, nylon ropes or slings may have no visible damage.

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

I suggested we chop up bits of rope and experiment. He said 'no'

Not sure what exactly your chemistry question is, but the story about the rope breaking was reported first-hand either here or on Supertopo. Analysis of the rope showed traces of acid, but it could not be determined how it happened.

Batteries should not emit significant quantities of either sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide in normal use, else we would all have a corroded hole on our car hood (when liquid level is low, you add only water, not acid), but it can easily be spilled during removal etc, especially in older style batteries.

The chemistry term, "strong acid" does not refer to concentration, it describes the ability of an acid to dissociate, even dilute sulfuric acid will damage nylon.

What is so scary about this is that if exposed to sulfuric acid, nylon ropes or slings may have no visible damage.

TE

Out of curiosity, I once poured full-strength acid from an old leaky battery onto a light colored nylon sling, just so I could clearly see what acid damage would look like. All it did was give the nylon a very slight brown tinge. Comparable to a dirty spot on it. Spooky, for sure.

I think there was a climbing accident/fatality several years ago that involved a rope that was unknowingly weakened by exposure to car battery fumes.

It was an injury and it involved a climber who decked in a gym from rope failure. The climber placed the rope on the ground in the parking lot. When the rope was on the ground it came into contact with sulfuric acid on the ground. "Car battery fumes" is mostly just evaporating water and hydrogen. The liquid in automotive batteries is typically a mixture of 30% sulfuric acid and 70% distilled water. Overtime the water in the battery can evaporate, but sulfuric acid does not really evaporate. That is the reason why automotive batteries that are low in electrolytic fluid should be refilled with water, not battery acid. When voltage and current is applied to the battery from the alternator, small hydrogen bubbles are produced in the electrolytic fluid mixture causing a buildup of hydrogen gas in the battery's cells. The hydrogen gas is vented into the atmosphere or filtered through a hydrogen filter. But the hydrogen is not really the problem, it is the sulfuric acid. That is what will weaken a rope and that is what caused the rope failure in the example above. It is for that reason that you should never set your get on anything in the engine bay or on the ground in a parking lot.

I asked my husband about this and he suggested I write the following

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

I suggested we chop up bits of rope and experiment. He said 'no'

Do I have a link for what? As far as the SA concentration goes, it can be anywhere from 2:20 to 19:20, it depends on the battery type, but automotive batteries are typically around 1:3 SA to water. As far as the rope failure goes, the heat of the engine had nothing to do with it since the user dident store the rope in the engine bay.

Anyway the incident was at Pipeworks Climbing Gym in Sacramento, California. You can download a PDF about it here:

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

I suggested we chop up bits of rope and experiment. He said 'no'

Not sure what exactly your chemistry question is, but the story about the rope breaking was reported first-hand either here or on Supertopo. Analysis of the rope showed traces of acid, but it could not be determined how it happened.

Batteries should not emit significant quantities of either sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide in normal use, else we would all have a corroded hole on our car hood (when liquid level is low, you add only water, not acid), but it can easily be spilled during removal etc, especially in older style batteries.

The chemistry term, "strong acid" does not refer to concentration, it describes the ability of an acid to dissociate, even dilute sulfuric acid will damage nylon.

What is so scary about this is that if exposed to sulfuric acid, nylon ropes or slings may have no visible damage.

TE

Out of curiosity, I once poured full-strength acid from an old leaky battery onto a light colored nylon sling, just so I could clearly see what acid damage would look like. All it did was give the nylon a very slight brown tinge. Comparable to a dirty spot on it. Spooky, for sure.

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

I suggested we chop up bits of rope and experiment. He said 'no'

Not sure what exactly your chemistry question is, but the story about the rope breaking was reported first-hand either here or on Supertopo. Analysis of the rope showed traces of acid, but it could not be determined how it happened.

Batteries should not emit significant quantities of either sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide in normal use, else we would all have a corroded hole on our car hood (when liquid level is low, you add only water, not acid), but it can easily be spilled during removal etc, especially in older style batteries.

The chemistry term, "strong acid" does not refer to concentration, it describes the ability of an acid to dissociate, even dilute sulfuric acid will damage nylon.

What is so scary about this is that if exposed to sulfuric acid, nylon ropes or slings may have no visible damage.

TE

Out of curiosity, I once poured full-strength acid from an old leaky battery onto a light colored nylon sling, just so I could clearly see what acid damage would look like. All it did was give the nylon a very slight brown tinge. Comparable to a dirty spot on it. Spooky, for sure.

GO

Did you pull test it?

Nah, it would've been cool to see the difference, but A - I don't have a strain gauge so I'd have had to jury rig something, and B - I didn't want it potentially touching any of my gear.

Do you have a link for this? The concentration of sulfuric acid normally found in car batteries is 40% SA to 60% water. in these concentrations sulfuric acid is usually stored in plastic containers, note batteries are made of plastic. However, not all plastics are the same. Strong concentrations of SA will decompose some grades of plastics, particularly those with high organic or volatile component. All of this said, there is probably a better chemist in the house than he is. He did though, suggest the decomposition of the rope in the above scenario would more likely to of been caused by a combination of heat (from the engine?) and the sulfur dioxide emitted from the battery whilst being charged. In extreme circumstances this would be far more corrosive than the sulfuric acid.

I suggested we chop up bits of rope and experiment. He said 'no'

Not sure what exactly your chemistry question is, but the story about the rope breaking was reported first-hand either here or on Supertopo. Analysis of the rope showed traces of acid, but it could not be determined how it happened.

Batteries should not emit significant quantities of either sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide in normal use, else we would all have a corroded hole on our car hood (when liquid level is low, you add only water, not acid), but it can easily be spilled during removal etc, especially in older style batteries.

The chemistry term, "strong acid" does not refer to concentration, it describes the ability of an acid to dissociate, even dilute sulfuric acid will damage nylon.

What is so scary about this is that if exposed to sulfuric acid, nylon ropes or slings may have no visible damage.

TE

Out of curiosity, I once poured full-strength acid from an old leaky battery onto a light colored nylon sling, just so I could clearly see what acid damage would look like. All it did was give the nylon a very slight brown tinge. Comparable to a dirty spot on it. Spooky, for sure.

GO

Did you pull test it?

Nah, it would've been cool to see the difference, but A - I don't have a strain gauge so I'd have had to jury rig something, and B - I didn't want it potentially touching any of my gear.

GO

Well I have pull tested 1" webbing soaked in battery acid, I posted the results in the lab in my pull testing thread. Anyway, a piece of webbing that was failing at 23kN failed at only a few hundred pounds when contaminated with acid. The exact values are located in the thread.

I want to thank the RC community for the feedback I received in this thread.

Here is an update:

1. I downgraded all of the soft goods; everything. They will be performing non-lifeline tasks, if not ending up in the garbage.

2. I discovered the age of the harness that looks new. This is the Black Diamond Rep's exact comment:

In reply to:

Hi David, thanks for the email, this harness was produced in early 2003, and would be past our recommended life-span of 5-8 years, so we would recommend retirement at this point.

That gives me a good idea of how old this gear is.

3. I'm on the fence with the biners. They all look like they are in good condition. The gates work well, they are not deformed, they don't look oxidized, and none of them have gouges or anything like that. They are scratched up and some of them have wear in the area the rope would run through.

Do I buy new dogbones and essentially have new QuickDraws, or do I buy new QuickDraws?

I know there is a debate in the community. What if they were dropped? What if they've been exposed to extreme conditions? Either way; I don't know the usage history. But, biners and lockers are terribly complicated. It seems a basic inspection should reveal any red flags.

4. I was able to sell all of the ice/alpine gear, thanks for the suggestion Billcoe. I still have some of the trad gear. The nuts and hexes are proving a little harder to get rid of.

5. Either way; I plan on buying a new harness, a new rope, and will be making a decision about the QuickDraws and the lockers soon.

You don't need to worry about the biners at all. BD once pull tested a bunch of biners found at the base of El Cap (meaning that they had been dropped from 100s to 1000s of feet) and every single biner that was not obviously deformed from the fall broke at above it's rated strength. If the biners look fine (minor scratches are not a problem) and the gates function correctly, you're good to go.

You don't need to worry about the biners at all. BD once pull tested a bunch of biners found at the base of El Cap (meaning that they had been dropped from 100s to 1000s of feet) and every single biner that was not obviously deformed from the fall broke at above it's rated strength. If the biners look fine (minor scratches are not a problem) and the gates function correctly, you're good to go.

This seems to be the consensus, which of course makes me very happy. So I'll probably just buy some new dogbones. Do you guys have any favored spots to do that sort of thing?

Just a thought - climbing gym employees are frequently not experienced at all. They're high school kids who make minimum wage belaying birthday kids at parties.

Similarly, even head route setters at gyms, particularly in a place like Florida with no "real" climbing to speak of, may in fact just be very strong gym rats with no experience to judge the quality/safety of gear.

Just a thought - climbing gym employees are frequently not experienced at all. They're high school kids who make minimum wage belaying birthday kids at parties.

Similarly, even head route setters at gyms, particularly in a place like Florida with no "real" climbing to speak of, may in fact just be very strong gym rats with no experience to judge the quality/safety of gear.

Just food for thought.

Well intention and relevant thoughts, Brokesomeribs. Thank you!

I have taken this into consideration. I will do the best I can to evaluate the gym's staff, gear, and credentials. If I'm not comfortable there, I will walk, and unfortunately, just be out of luck.

I've purchased a book called Rock Climbing: Mastering the Basics of Climbing. I know, and am 100% in agreement with the fact that, reading a book is not substitution for proper in-person instruction. But, reading books like that is also better than not reading them and being forced to blindly trust random gym-rats.

Also, luckily, I received three days of personal instruction from a certified climbing guide while on holiday in Kalymnos. It was incredible! But I still have so much to learn ... Living in Florida, it looks like real rock climbing is going to be left to future holidays, and when I hit the crags, I will probably recruit a local climbing guide to come with and keep us safe for many years to come until I feel confident in my abilities to keep me and a partner safe.

Just a thought - climbing gym employees are frequently not experienced at all. They're high school kids who make minimum wage belaying birthday kids at parties.

Similarly, even head route setters at gyms, particularly in a place like Florida with no "real" climbing to speak of, may in fact just be very strong gym rats with no experience to judge the quality/safety of gear.

Just food for thought.

I could write a book listing the experiences I have had with gym employees validating the above quote. Even in world class gyms, the employees often dont know what they are doing (such as Momentum in Salt Lake).

Just a thought - climbing gym employees are frequently not experienced at all. They're high school kids who make minimum wage belaying birthday kids at parties.

Similarly, even head route setters at gyms, particularly in a place like Florida with no "real" climbing to speak of, may in fact just be very strong gym rats with no experience to judge the quality/safety of gear.

Just food for thought.

I could write a book listing the experiences I have had with gym employees validating the above quote. Even in world class gyms, the employees often dont know what they are doing (such as Momentum in Salt Lake).

I wouldn´t trust most guys in the gym to tell me the time of day, well the knackered looking over 40´s with the funny looking hands yes but the rest not!

We have two levels of gym personnel you commonly encounter in the UK (and their equivalants in Europe), the lower qualification is for people who have never seen a rock, the other for those that have. Above this we get the MIA and one is told on the forums in the UK to get these guys to check your gear, of course they aren´t trained for this, have no remit to do so and would turn white if you asked that they put their "professional" opinion in writing since then they are legally liable.

The whole issue of "qualified equipment inspection" has been discussed at the highest level since this is a general recommendation from all manufacturers and in fact a requirement for some of the labelling. Not surprisingly this is a hot potato that has been handed around and no one wants to know, even the manufacturers have a problem since generally the only way they can confirm equipment conforms is to break it. Not even senior members of the manufacturing industry are going to stick their necks out too far, the best you´ll get is "I would/wouldn´t climb on it".

Just speaking about the slung cams, it occurs to me that the slings attached to those cams are about twice as strong as the cams themselves. I can't think of any gear that is anywhere near 22kn. I think as long as the cam slings are clean, unfrayed and not sun bleached, they should be OK.

Fortunately I can afford to buy brand new gear. A student on a tight budget has a good reason to buy used gear. If they can NOT stomach the fact that the history is uncertain then .......There is a saying that goes "The cheap comes out expensive"