I think there has always been room for a long ranged basic weapon... to be honest the range shouldn't be so overpowered so long as there is plenty of terrain, and the inverted accuracy gives the gun a very different style to the other weapons. The negative at short, along with the move or fire, stops it being a no brainer choice for a shooty gang.

[The +1 at long range might make it a bit too powerful, but hopefully the move or fire/-1 at short and high cost counter this. Any opinions?]

As an extra to this we could have:

Hollow Point Rounds - Ammo and Grenades10cr
Used in the hunting rifle they give it a -1 save mod and use the high impact rules (so 5-6 becomes OOA on the injury chart).

Hopefully I will think up a few more... I really think the basic weapons need the most extras. I can't see any reason to not have the autogun, lasgun and shotgun on every list, and currently this only leaves the bolter to differentiate the lists. Another two or three weapons in this area could really help to give the HWL some character.

OK, how about -
Ammo and Grenades: Molotov Cocktail/Incendiary Grenades.
Easily made in the Workshops and Holes of the Underhive, incendiary grenades are simply bottles filled with a flammable liquid and affixed ewith a crude wick. To use, light wick and throw at enemy.

Range - Thrown, 2"blast, models hit as Flamer. Ammo Auto. 20creds

Special: Taser/Stun Gun
These weapons are usually used for policing and crowd control in the more civilised areas of the Underhive. They work by overloading the victim's nervous system by means of a massive electrical shock.

Type: Pistol, Range 0-8"+2/9-16"-1, Str 5, Sv+1, Ammo 4+ 20creds
Save: The nature of the Taser's attack requires it to hit exposed flesh or thin cloth to work effectively. The target gains a +1 Sv bounus, or a Sv of 6 if it had no armour. Models taken OOA do not have to roll for Serious Injuries, but still cannot work territory/ search for rare trades/etc.

Well it's not a new weapon as such but I'd quite like to see the 'club, maul or bludgeon' group separated into two distinct groups. You would then have the more brutal weapons such as the ones depicted here, with the usual +1S and the more crude weapons that just use the base strength and cost perhaps a measly 5cr. Currently I just don't like the way weapons such as "old bones, sticks and lumps of rock" (ghouls) give the same +1S bonus as the more meaty bigger weapons. I guess the same thought could be applied with flails having its own group separate from chains.

In regards to new weapons I'll just copy->paste from the old thread on the official forums:

Autoslugger [special] - 40cr
The autoslugger is favoured by outlaws for their ease of production and maintenance and unlike most weapons are built in the Underhive rather than smuggled down from Hive City. It uses a combination of autogun and heavy stubber technology to deliver a cloud of bullets for a relatively cheap cost.

0-12 12-24 +1 - 3 1 - 4+
Sustained Fire 1

Long Las [basic] - 25cr
In comparison to its lasgun brother, the long las sports a longer barrel which combined with its modified laser matrix allows it to fire a tighter coil of light increasing the weapon's range but reducing its rate of fire. In the cramped Deadzones it is usually only favoured by marksman or heavies that require a long range back up weapon.

0-12 12-32 -1 - 3 1 -1 2+

Scattergun [basic] - 20cr (Separate from the blunderbuss weapon group)
The strong explosive charge of the scattergun allows it to accurately deliver a plethora of fletchette over a substantial distance. Due to its shorter barrel and wider gauge though it loses its accuracy over longer ranges. Scatterguns are particularly favoured in dense terrain or close quarter firefights where their devastating swarm of shards is most effective.

0-12 12-16 +2 -1 4 1 - 4+

Kraken Rounds - 15 + 3D6cr (rare)
Kraken rounds have the Deuterium core of a bolt round replaced with solid admantium allowing them to punch through the toughest of armour with ease. Either a bolt pistol or boltgun can be loaded with kraken rounds boosting the save modifier of the weapon to -3.

Drum Magazine - 15 + 2D6cr (rare)
The Drum magazine modifies the firing and ammo mechanisms of an autogun increasing the flow of ammunition which in turn increases its rate of fire. It is named after the circular drum clips that are used to replenish ammo but belt fed devices are also common among Underhive fighters. Any autogun can be fitted with a drum magazine adding +1 to the weapon's To Hit modifier for both short and long range. However, autoguns are not designed for such a high rate of fire, the extra heat generated increases the risk of a failure substantially, any autogun fitted with a drum magazine has it's Ammo Roll reduced to 6+.

I also quite like the idea of a chainaxe but thanks to clubs is currently quite useless. Hopefully after the rules review chainswords will have their deserved -2 save modifier which would perhaps give chainaxes a little something.

Hand Weapons-
This could be some brass knuckles, claws, whatever somes to mind.
10 credits, strength user, +1 initiative for determining the winner in a draw.

Thrown Weapons-
Again, there are a lot of possible objects that would have the same effect. Perhaps bolas could get their own class. Basically a poor man's silenced weapon.
15 credits, silent, range 8", no modifiers, strength as user -1, ammo 4+

Bolas- (For those who don't know a bolas is several small weights attached to a short handle by strong cord or leather strips. It is spun as it is thrown so the weights wrap around whatever is hit as well as hitting it with considerable force. The reason I'm not sure about this one is that it takes considerable skill to use so might be out of place in the underhive. If it is used I think it would have a -1 to hit penalty because of the difficulty of throwing it correctly.)
25 credits, silent, if hit target cannot test to escape pinning (being tangled up), range 8", -1 to hit always, strength as user-1, ammo 5+

Blowguns-
Specifically for Ratskins. Yet another silent weapon I have devised. Fires poisoned darts with about the range of a pistol.
25 credits, silent, short range 8", long range 16", +1 to hit at short, strength NA, ammo 4+
If anyone is hit by a blowgun they are wounded automatically on a 4+. Any models wounded roll on the needle weapon table rather than the normal one.

Auzure:-
I agree, though the short should really be 0-16, then long 16-32 to keep it in line with the needle rifle. Essentially it becomes a poor mans needle rifle, but with a kind of inverted set of range modifiers... the needle rifle should probably have something similar I think. In any FPS game I've played it is a ball-buster trying to hit an enemy at close range, but far away they move relatively little, so they can be picked off easily.

Feeder:-
The initial stat line for the Molotovs were pretty harsh... way better than a frag for less creds. I think Auzure's solution was best, so that models under the template, or partially under, are hit on a 4+, though I would leave it at S4 if this were the case. It makes the molotov a cheap alternative to the frag (maybe just 15 creds?) and the randomness of if it hits targets under the template represents the randomness of how the bottle smashes and fuel is splashed. Cool idea though .

Baxx:-
I like your ideas on the whole, though I am wary of having a basic weapon with sustained fire... SF is probably something to be left only for special and heavy weapons. The long las I like... kind of a more high tech counterpart for my hunting rifle, so it could fit easily onto the Van Saar weapons list, whilst the hunting rifle might be for the Delaque and/or Orlock list(s). I also like the scattergun... it has a Goliath and possibly even Cawdor or Orlock feel to it. Perhaps it could have similar rules to the shotgun scatter shell in being able to hit models in base to base with the target (not the ignore cover part though).

The other two are good (though the Kraken rounds seem a little expensive for just a -3 save mod... armour is so rare anyway), but the problem is how to fit new rare weapons on the rare trade list. One of the problems with the Necromunda system is that you can't put new rare items in without completely re-doing the trade chart, whereas in Mordheim it is simply a matter of coming up with a rarity value. Saying this, there is room for new things on the list I feel. Power weapons could afford to be dropped from 11-14 to 11-13 I think, and the autogun drum magazine could be put in along side the hotshot pack. Perhaps rather than being rare, some of these special shell types could be put on the Leader Only part of some choice HWL. For example, Inferno Boltshells on the Cawdor list, and Stalker Silenced Boltshells on the Delaque list. And the Kraken rounds reminds me that there are other ammo types to be poached from Inquisitor:

Metal Storm Rounds20cr (15+2D6 if rare)

Metal storm rounds are specially designed to fragment before they hit the target showering it with shrapnel, rather than exploding on impact. They may be loaded into any boltgun or boltpistol. The loss of power caused by the fragmentation of these rounds means they are only S3 and have no Save Mod., but any model hit by a metal storm round is actually hit D3 times. Roll to wound separately for each hit, though the exp. bonus for wounding is only applied once to the firer.

Stalker Silenced Rounds15cr (10+2D6 if rare)

With their explosive charge replaced by a gas ignition system, Stalker Silenced shells fire silently without any muzzle flash, though they lack the strength of standard boltgun shells. They may be loaded in any boltpistol or boltgun. They count as silent (for the purposes of setting off the alarm in the Raid, and such like) but are reduced to S3 with no Save Mod.

Hellfire rounds consist of a ceramic shell containing one of several varieties of mutagenic acid, collectively known as Hellfire Acid. They are quite rare, but widely sought in the Underhive due to their effectiveness against unarmoured targets. Hellfire rounds always wound any living target (they have no effect on non-living targets like the water still) on a 2+, but they have no Save Mod. (whether used in a Boltpistol, Boltgun or Heavy Bolter). However, due to the fragile nature of the ceramic shell, Hellfire rounds must be fired singly (so no using Fast Shot, Rapid Fire, or SF in the Heavy Bolter). The larger shells used in the Heavy Bolter use the blast template and cause D3 damage to any target wounded.

Inferno Rounds20cr (15+2D6 if rare)

Inferno Rounds have the explosive charge replaced with a phosphoric gel which sticks to the target and ignites it. They may be used in a boltpistol or boltgun, and use the standard profile for the gun. However, they may re-roll any failed to wound rolls.

I think the danger of giving the Boltgun different ammo types is that they might become a more expensive Shotgun. Plus, why not give the Metal Storm rounds the same 'no-cover' rule as Scatter Shells? They work on the same principle. Unless you thought the same thing as me, of course...

True, but the costs associated to these things (35 for the boltgun and then anywhere from 15 to 25 for the extra rounds) would make it a very prestige weapon because you'll be splashing out like 50-60 creds for a gun with just one extra set of ammo. That's more than a shotgun with every ammo type. If you had every ammo type for the bolter at the costs above then it would cost more than a heavy stubber! Plus, if they are made rare it should keep them in check, as should the fact that they are still all 6+ ammo.

And I tried to keep them different from the shotgun rounds, because I didn't just want a boltgun with scatter shells. Those rules are about the same sort of effect as in Inquisitor... multiple locations hit, but with lower strength. The only "cop-out" was the Inferno rounds, but I couldn't think of anything else.

Metal storm rounds &stalker silenced shells; very nice
[inferno is too many types, too powerful- maybe redemptionist only]
Blowguns for ratskin
LONG LAS; I always wanted this available. But might make autogun even less viable if this is basic.
[dont like autoslugger that much, randomness imo]
Drum/chain magazine; like the idea and there needs to be more ammo types...
bayonet... very nice makes having to holf the weapon in 1 of your hands an OK thing! Needs to be better though maybe, it doesn't give much advantage, or cheaper.

Stun gun sounds cool but unlikely... people would take laspistol
Hollowpoint is OK
Holdout pistol i like a lot, especially for those desperete outlaw gangs, but may lead to juve-istic behaviour [as many people as possible] and make stub gun obselite...
Thnx, Deathangel

Widowmaker, the autoslugger is intended to come under the special weapon group (hence the [special] next to its name ). It does seem to fit extremely nicely for outlaws because currently the only low tech special weapons are the flamer and grenade launcher. It just creates another nice option and there's a definite hole for a low powered sustained weapon or a more practical long ranged special weapon.

Personally I think the boltgun really needs some sort of optional ammo or upgrade, not only to separate it from the lasgun+hotshot but to make it warrant its prestige status. I wouldn't worry about the rare trade chart for the moment, there's still plenty of holes to fill and there's probably some items on there that should be common anyway. I suspect making extra boltgun ammo common might make them a little too powerful despite their cost and I really can't imagine them being common among the workshops. I really like the metal storm rounds though, gives it a bit of flexibility and I imagine they would work wonderfully against those damned giant rats heh.

Widowmaker, the autoslugger is intended to come under the special weapon group (hence the [special] next to its name ).

Ooops... my bad . It is fine as a special weapon then. Like the tommy gun of the future! And I agree that the boltgun rounds could do with being on the rare trade chart. But I am not sure that the rare trade chart is top of the Rules Review's agenda (though I hope the HWL is). There is certainly plenty of room to chop and change the rare trade chart by giving some things less slots (power weapons) and maybe making some things common (Silencer? Stummers/Screamers?).

EDIT: For some reason my post came up as a straight quote of Baxx's last post, but I am sure I had written basically what is now above. Strange!

_________________I am the darkness... the darkness inside you all.

Last edited by the widowmaker on Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

I discovered a long time ago that I'm very bad at thinking up my own ideas, but ok at building on others suggestions. So I'll just stick to what I can do here, and hopefully no one will take it the wrong way.

Spear - My suggestion would be make it a basic S weapon, two handed, and that charging opponents must make an I test or suffer one hit before getting into CC. If that is too powerful, I'd say negate the charge bonus rather than win draws.

Holdout pistol - It seems to me the holdout pistol should have weak shooting stats, but be good in CC. I'd say half the range, get rid of the +1 at short, and give it some sort of benifit in CC that simulates the surprise factor. As it is it seems to be better than the Stub Gun.

Hunting Rifle - IMO, guns should always have at least an equal bonus at short and long ranges. I've fired a large number of different types of guns in my life, and I've never seen one where it wasn't easier to hit stuff close up. It just doesn't make sense.

Hollow points - That High Impact rule applying to a basic weapon could be very powerful. Does anyone else think so?

Molotov Coctail - I'd say no blast radius since they don't really explode, just give us the Catch On Fire rule back. Lower the cost and make sure to say that it may not be used with a grenade launcher ('cuz you know someone would try it). I assumed by "hits like a flamer" you meant it is S4, Save -2, not autohit.

Bayonet - A good idea for an addional weapon, and an good idea for a special ability to give to a new CC weapon, but they don't really go together. I have always said that I'd rather have a good rule than a realistic rule, but since we're making stuff up from whole cloth we might as well try to have both. Bayonets do not have very much reach, and are mainly better in terms of allowing a block and increasing damage in a thrust. Unfortunately I can't think of a way to do this that doesn't make it a sword or a club. Also, if you use the double charge bonus make sure to specify how it combines with Bezerk Charge.

Autoslugger - With a 4+ ammo roll and only 40 creds, that's a bit ouch.

Long Las - Nothing against the basic idea, but if I'm reading your shorthand correctly it would be -1 at short range and -3 at long range? That's an enormous penalty, I don't believe anyone would buy it. I'd say maybe make it +1 at short and no bonus to long, but make it burn out easier. Maybe a 4+ ammo check? Also, did you mean to say it was S1? Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly...

Scattergun - Too good, no one would ever use a shotgun again.

Kracken Rounds - Interesting, but given the scarcity of armor in necromunda I don't think they'd be used.

Drum Magazine - Wicked idea, I like it a lot.

Chain Axes - IIRC, don't chainaxes give S+2? That's not enough of a nich? Or was it only S+1? I don't understand the Save comment.

Brass Knuckles - Interesting, but do ties happen often enough for them to be worth 10 creds for such a small bonus?

Bolas - An interesting nich weapon, but most likely not worth 25 creds.

All bolter round ideas - I'm against making bolters a better shotgun.

Metal Storm Rounds - That sounds almost as good as sustained fire but without the extra chance of jamming. This one I especially don't like.