A lot of times, I think we only hear parts to the stories. Often, which parts depends on who's telling them. If you collect the pieces from enough people, you can usually get a good idea of what happened.

Hall & Nash supposedly waived their favored nations clause when Bret did eventually join WCW, granting him his $2.6 million per year deal. They probably knew/thought it would help them in the long run by attracting more business. Too bad WCW had no idea what to do with Bret.

You make a good point. But, as was your case with hearing about Luger and WrestleMania 10 from me, this is the first time I've ever heard that Luger was in the running for the 3rd man of the NWO.

I thought Bret got an even $3 million per year to join WCW. Maybe it was a rounding thing. . But, considering that both Hall and Nash were getting about half of that, why would they waive their "favored nations" clause? If Bret gets that, so would they, no??

BTW, whose DUMB idea was it to give that clause to "The Bad Guy", anyway? I could see doing that with Bret Hart, Hogan, even Big D......but RAZOR (especially given his suspension, before he left WWF)

The only reason for Bret to job to Yoko was, in fact, a middle step to get the belt back on Hogan, who was pimping his latest movie or series. The move was done with the understanding that Terry would reciprocate the job to Bret at a later date, but Hulk reneged before leaving for Turner paradise.

I honestly believe that gave Bret a red ass, which I suspect he has to this day.

According to Bret, WCW's original deal (the one he turned down) was for 3 mil. After the Survivor Series, he asked Eric for the same deal, but was told that 2.6 was the best they could do. They actually offered him less than that before the agreement was reached.

Bret still got the other frills of the original offer. It was a sweet deal no matter how you look at it.

It sounded like Hall & Nash waived their clause simply as a way to contribute to bringing Bret on board. If Turner payroll had to match their salaries with Bret's, they may have been less likely to meet Bret's offer.Everyone wanted to see Bret join WCW. It had so much potential, especially considering what had happened in the Fed just a few months earlier.

Instead, WCW demonstrated just one more reason they went out of business.

According to Bret, WCW's original deal (the one he turned down) was for 3 mil. After the Survivor Series, he asked Eric for the same deal, but was told that 2.6 was the best they could do. They actually offered him less than that before the agreement was reached.

Bret still got the other frills of the original offer. It was a sweet deal no matter how you look at it.

It sounded like Hall & Nash waived their clause simply as a way to contribute to bringing Bret on board. If Turner payroll had to match their salaries with Bret's, they may have been less likely to meet Bret's offer.Everyone wanted to see Bret join WCW. It had so much potential, especially considering what had happened in the Fed just a few months earlier.

Instead, WCW demonstrated just one more reason they went out of business.

Then, Hall must have REALLY been smoking crack (and gave some to Nash). My train of thought would be that WCW isn't going to pass up a golden opportunity to get Bret Hart and conceivably put the final nail in the WWF's coffin.

Ergo, Bret Hart was going to get broken off, BIG TIME. And, as long as I have a "favored nations" clause, so will I.

Now that I remember, Nash said a guy, named Barry Bloom from WCW, gave Hall that clause in his contract Apparently, he was on that stuff, as well. There is NO WAY I would have given that to Razor. Heck, I don't even think Big D was worth that.

Now that I remember, Nash said a guy, named Barry Bloom from WCW, gave Hall that clause in his contract Apparently, he was on that stuff, as well. There is NO WAY I would have given that to Razor. Heck, I don't even think Big D was worth that.

Bloom probably negotiated that contract for Hall.

Barry Bloom wound up representing A LOT of wrestlers around that time. At some point, he's been an agent for Piper, Jericho, Foley, Hall, Nash, Hunter, Waltman, Goldberg, Ventura, Shamrock, and others. Vince never liked the idea of his guys having managers and agents for much the same reason he never allowed them to unionize.

I believe that Jesse was among the first (maybe THE first) pro-wrestler to acquire an agent. In fact, while calling the Piper/Adonis match with Monsoon at WM III, Jesse even alluded to his "new tag-team" of Braverman and Bloom out in LA. Michael Braverman is partners with Bloom, and also serves as Jesse's manager.

Is unlikely that most most viewers knew either of the two men, and Ventura probably mentioned their names more as a dig at Vince with whom Jesse was having some contractual issues. It was a subtle way for Jesse to tell the old man, "I don't need you or wrestling because I've got bigger fish waiting." It was during this time that Jesse landed a guest spot on the series Hunter, and signed to begin filming Predator, which really gave Vince the red ass.

Barry Bloom wound up representing A LOT of wrestlers around that time. At some point, he's been an agent for Piper, Jericho, Foley, Hall, Nash, Hunter, Waltman, Goldberg, Ventura, Shamrock, and others. Vince never liked the idea of his guys having managers and agents for much the same reason he never allowed them to unionize.

I believe that Jesse was among the first (maybe THE first) pro-wrestler to acquire an agent. In fact, while calling the Piper/Adonis match with Monsoon at WM III, Jesse even alluded to his "new tag-team" of Braverman and Bloom out in LA. Michael Braverman is partners with Bloom, and also serves as Jesse's manager.

Is unlikely that most most viewers knew either of the two men, and Ventura probably mentioned their names more as a dig at Vince with whom Jesse was having some contractual issues. It was a subtle way for Jesse to tell the old man, "I don't need you or wrestling because I've got bigger fish waiting." It was during this time that Jesse landed a guest spot on the series Hunter, and signed to begin filming Predator, which really gave Vince the red ass.

OK! That makes sense, if Bloom is an agent. Thus, the crack-smoking honor goes to whichever WCW suit agreed to that mess.

OK! That makes sense, if Bloom is an agent. Thus, the crack-smoking honor goes to whichever WCW suit agreed to that mess, as least for Razor.

That was their biggest problem. No one had any accountability, so they did whatever they wanted. Bischoff was spending Turner's money; not his own. Also, most of Turner's people did not come from a wrestling background. Jim Herd, who served as WCW president for a time, was formerly the CEO of Pizza Hut.

But, there was one guy who had the power to put his foot down any time he wanted, and that was Ted Turner himself. He had total control, but was so incredibly dissociated from the operations of that company. Some people have mentioned that Turner knew who Ric Flair was, and his knowledge of WCW and wrestling pretty much ended there. He still could have looked at the numbers and interjected by appointing people who knew WTF they were doing.

Ted Turner deserves the most blame for WCW's demise. He's the one who could have done something, but didn't.

That was their biggest problem. No one had any accountability, so they did whatever they wanted. Bischoff was spending Turner's money; not his own. Also, most of Turner's people did not come from a wrestling background. Jim Herd, who served as WCW president for a time, was formerly the CEO of Pizza Hut.

But, there was one guy who had the power to put his foot down any time he wanted, and that was Ted Turner himself. He had total control, but was so incredibly dissociated from the operations of that company. Some people have mentioned that Turner knew who Ric Flair was, and his knowledge of WCW and wrestling pretty much ended there. He still could have looked at the numbers and interjected by appointing people who knew WTF they were doing.

Ted Turner deserves the most blame for WCW's demise. He's the one who could have done something, but didn't.

I was editing my earilier post to add the following:

Razor Ramon was never WWF champion; he was never in the main-event of WrestleMania (or any PPV, of which I can recall); and given his drug problems and behind-the-stage issues with certain workers (Goldust, in particular), why would WCW give him substantially more than "Sting money" to return?

Nash said that Hall got three times his WWF salary, which was more than Sting got, working only 150 or so days, with a 120-day injury clause....as well as his "favored nations" one (meaning, he got more money when Diesel showed up).

He said that Hall pleaded with him to jump ship, I'm just the I-C champ; you're the ex-heavyweight champ. They're going to give you more. The more they give you, the more they're going to give ME, beause I have a 'favored nations'. So, if you get a million two ($1.2 million), I GET a million two."

That was their biggest problem. No one had any accountability, so they did whatever they wanted. Bischoff was spending Turner's money; not his own. Also, most of Turner's people did not come from a wrestling background. Jim Herd, who served as WCW president for a time, was formerly the CEO of Pizza Hut.

But, there was one guy who had the power to put his foot down any time he wanted, and that was Ted Turner himself. He had total control, but was so incredibly dissociated from the operations of that company. Some people have mentioned that Turner knew who Ric Flair was, and his knowledge of WCW and wrestling pretty much ended there. He still could have looked at the numbers and interjected by appointing people who knew WTF they were doing.

Ted Turner deserves the most blame for WCW's demise. He's the one who could have done something, but didn't.

What about JJ Dillon? He jumped ship, too. Dillon was on the panel and stated that, despite the fears that the WWF guys had, they were in no danger of WCW putting them out of business.

He claimed that he saw the financials and, even though WCW was beating them in the ratings, the WWF was KILLING WCW on pay-per-view revenues, as well as merchandise. Also, there was the overhead from doing Nitro live every night vs. WWF's taping every other episode of RAW.

He reminded Nash of the quarterly printout he would get, breaking down the revenues, with a "fat check" at the end of the printout, based on how much "Diesel" merchandise was sold that period.

The story Nash told about how he and Hall got an extra $400 thousand, because JR started that storyline about "Diesel" and "Razor Ramon" returning to the WWF, is HILARIOUS!!

And, on the topic of Sting, didn't those two co-own a couple of gyms around Atlanta?

Yeah, they had two Main Event Fitness gyms in Atlanta. One on Buford Highway (Mexican ghettoville) which they later sold to Ropeman (personal trainer you see mentioned in Flex magazines) and he renamed it Ropeman's Fitness. The other one was in Marietta on Windy Hill. It was sort of like a "country club" fitness facility. Not because of the equipment (which was hard core and very clean) but because I never ever saw a black person there the entire 3 years that I was a member of that chain. Even Karigan (sp? the cruiserweight dancing guy) was the darkest person in there. The rest of the membership was "High White And All Right" according to Buff Bagwell as he once put it. There was a personal trainer there that had to be the best built human being on the planet. No joke about it. He was about 5'9", 240 and onion skinned 365 days a year. Thing about him, was that he never had the juiced look. His skin never had that "strained" or reddish look to it. Despite looking like an anatomy chart he had a very healthy look to him. And had the greatest symmetry I have ever seen. (and I worked out at Lee Haneys downtown for years too and saw many pros and wanna be pros in there to compare by.) This man was like the Nordic version of Bob Paris.There was another guy in there, totally gay and very open about it. Had a wicked sense of humor that kept everyone in earshot in stitches. But had gotten calf implants years before and either the doc didn't do them right or they must have shifted because on the outside of his calves were an oval red blotch that never went away. It looked like a surf board shaped ring worm under the skin.

Most everyone from WCW worked out here. Unless you were black. Or your last name was Steiner. They worked out at Coffees Gym down the road. Which was so nasty you had to have a tetnus shot after your workout it seemed.

The Main Event on Buford only got a few of the WCW stars. Ron Simmons, Butch Reed, Goldberg, Zybsko and a few others. I once saw Zybsko walk into this gym early in the morning. About 7am, load 405 on the bench and just rep out 10-12 full range reps on it. I was floored. Not because he didn't warm up, but because I would never expect him to be that strong. Dude did about 8-9 sets of flat bench with the same weight. Knocking out easy reps, not even struggling on the last ones. Could have probably gotten a few more. Then went up to the front desk, cooked a pop tart in the oven, got on the stationary bike and pedaled while eating and reading the newspaper.

This was also where I saw Goldberg get the shit beat out of him in a real life fight by the Iranian that owned Supplement Warehouse over in Midtown.

Yeah, they had two Main Event Fitness gyms in Atlanta. One on Buford Highway (Mexican ghettoville) which they later sold to Ropeman (personal trainer you see mentioned in Flex magazines) and he renamed it Ropeman's Fitness. The other one was in Marietta on Windy Hill. It was sort of like a "country club" fitness facility. Not because of the equipment (which was hard core and very clean) but because I never ever saw a black person there the entire 3 years that I was a member of that chain. Even Karigan (sp? the cruiserweight dancing guy) was the darkest person in there. The rest of the membership was "High White And All Right" according to Buff Bagwell as he once put it. There was a personal trainer there that had to be the best built human being on the planet. No joke about it. He was about 5'9", 240 and onion skinned 365 days a year. Thing about him, was that he never had the juiced look. His skin never had that "strained" or reddish look to it. Despite looking like an anatomy chart he had a very healthy look to him. And had the greatest symmetry I have ever seen. (and I worked out at Lee Haneys downtown for years too and saw many pros and wanna be pros in there to compare by.) This man was like the Nordic version of Bob Paris.There was another guy in there, totally gay and very open about it. Had a wicked sense of humor that kept everyone in earshot in stitches. But had gotten calf implants years before and either the doc didn't do them right or they must have shifted because on the outside of his calves were an oval red blotch that never went away. It looked like a surf board shaped ring worm under the skin.

Most everyone from WCW worked out here. Unless you were black. Or your last name was Steiner. They worked out at Coffees Gym down the road. Which was so nasty you had to have a tetnus shot after your workout it seemed.

The Main Event on Buford only got a few of the WCW stars. Ron Simmons, Butch Reed, Goldberg, Zybsko and a few others. I once saw Zybsko walk into this gym early in the morning. About 7am, load 405 on the bench and just rep out 10-12 full range reps on it. I was floored. Not because he didn't warm up, but because I would never expect him to be that strong. Dude did about 8-9 sets of flat bench with the same weight. Knocking out easy reps, not even struggling on the last ones. Could have probably gotten a few more. Then went up to the front desk, cooked a pop tart in the oven, got on the stationary bike and pedaled while eating and reading the newspaper.

This was also where I saw Goldberg get the shit beat out of him in a real life fight by the Iranian that owned Supplement Warehouse over in Midtown.

I've heard Larry talk about his training days with Bruno in Pittsburgh. I'd always wondered how much truth there was to it. Now I know.

Very interesting stuff about the gyms. I'd never heard the Goldberg story before!

Yeah, they had two Main Event Fitness gyms in Atlanta. One on Buford Highway (Mexican ghettoville) which they later sold to Ropeman (personal trainer you see mentioned in Flex magazines) and he renamed it Ropeman's Fitness. The other one was in Marietta on Windy Hill. It was sort of like a "country club" fitness facility. Not because of the equipment (which was hard core and very clean) but because I never ever saw a black person there the entire 3 years that I was a member of that chain. Even Karigan (sp? the cruiserweight dancing guy) was the darkest person in there. The rest of the membership was "High White And All Right" according to Buff Bagwell as he once put it. There was a personal trainer there that had to be the best built human being on the planet. No joke about it. He was about 5'9", 240 and onion skinned 365 days a year. Thing about him, was that he never had the juiced look. His skin never had that "strained" or reddish look to it. Despite looking like an anatomy chart he had a very healthy look to him. And had the greatest symmetry I have ever seen. (and I worked out at Lee Haneys downtown for years too and saw many pros and wanna be pros in there to compare by.) This man was like the Nordic version of Bob Paris.There was another guy in there, totally gay and very open about it. Had a wicked sense of humor that kept everyone in earshot in stitches. But had gotten calf implants years before and either the doc didn't do them right or they must have shifted because on the outside of his calves were an oval red blotch that never went away. It looked like a surf board shaped ring worm under the skin.

Most everyone from WCW worked out here. Unless you were black. Or your last name was Steiner. They worked out at Coffees Gym down the road. Which was so nasty you had to have a tetnus shot after your workout it seemed.

The Main Event on Buford only got a few of the WCW stars. Ron Simmons, Butch Reed, Goldberg, Zybsko and a few others. I once saw Zybsko walk into this gym early in the morning. About 7am, load 405 on the bench and just rep out 10-12 full range reps on it. I was floored. Not because he didn't warm up, but because I would never expect him to be that strong. Dude did about 8-9 sets of flat bench with the same weight. Knocking out easy reps, not even struggling on the last ones. Could have probably gotten a few more. Then went up to the front desk, cooked a pop tart in the oven, got on the stationary bike and pedaled while eating and reading the newspaper.

This was also where I saw Goldberg get the shit beat out of him in a real life fight by the Iranian that owned Supplement Warehouse over in Midtown.

Hey, Lurker!

Can you answer the whole Lex-Luger-WrestleMania 10 thing?

Recap: A rumor from years ago claims Luger was to win the WWF title at Mania. But, he got drunk and spilled the beans. A reporter got wind and leaked the results, causing WWF to switch the finish and make Bret Hart champion.

Recap: A rumor from years ago claims Luger was to win the WWF title at Mania. But, he got drunk and spilled the beans. A reporter got wind and leaked the results, causing WWF to switch the finish and make Bret Hart champion.

Have no knowledge of that. Lex was not very approachable at all. And he was not well liked by many of his peers. Especially those who were not main event stars due to his arrogant attitude and Holier Than Thou personality. I remember hearing him totally rip into Robbie Rage on several occasions for being a drug addict and just air out that dude's private business even though the guy wasn't there to defend himself. And even though Luger was a drug addict himself.

As far as any dealings with Vince goes, the only one I heard about was back when Luger basically walked out of WCW when he was the champ over the fact that they did nothing to build him up as champ. (He won the title in a lackluster match with a lackluster finish ((Race turned heel to help him)) with a lackluster opponent ((Windham)) where neither was really champ as the title was vacate at the time) Windham had NO business being #1 contender. After this they refused to build Luger up with quality level opponents, feuds and angles and he just quit.

He couldn't appear as a wrestler on television for six months per his early release clause, which was ok with Vince as he planned to bring Luger on with the WBF at the time as a host and give him time to heal up from nagging injuries and increase his muscle mass to a greater degree. See, Vince really wanted one of the pro bodybuilders to be pro wrestlers due to their over powering physiques. Yet none of them would (or probably could) go through with actual wrestling training and come out with any kind of believable skills. So instead of taking a bodybuilder and making him into a wrestler, Vince decided to take a wrestler and make him into a bodybuilder. Reasoning Luger already had the wrestling training and skills, he would just give him adequate time to shoot up, train and eat and get even bigger. This is why Vince promoted Luger as doing the guest posing at the WBF contest. But Luger wound up getting hurt in a motorcycle accident and by the time he came back, the WBF was over and Vince was getting wind that the feds were onto him for what eventually turned into the steroid scandal. Other than releasing him or paying Luger to sit at home doing nothing, Vince just stuck him out there on tv with that stupid mirror gimmick.

Have no knowledge of that. Lex was not very approachable at all. And he was not well liked by many of his peers. Especially those who were not main event stars due to his arrogant attitude and Holier Than Thou personality. I remember hearing him totally rip into Robbie Rage on several occasions for being a drug addict and just air out that dude's private business even though the guy wasn't there to defend himself. And even though Luger was a drug addict himself.

As far as any dealings with Vince goes, the only one I heard about was back when Luger basically walked out of WCW when he was the champ over the fact that they did nothing to build him up as champ. (He won the title in a lackluster match with a lackluster finish ((Race turned heel to help him)) with a lackluster opponent ((Windham)) where neither was really champ as the title was vacate at the time) Windham had NO business being #1 contender. After this they refused to build Luger up with quality level opponents, feuds and angles and he just quit.

He couldn't appear as a wrestler on television for six months per his early release clause, which was ok with Vince as he planned to bring Luger on with the WBF at the time as a host and give him time to heal up from nagging injuries and increase his muscle mass to a greater degree. See, Vince really wanted one of the pro bodybuilders to be pro wrestlers due to their over powering physiques. Yet none of them would (or probably could) go through with actual wrestling training and come out with any kind of believable skills. So instead of taking a bodybuilder and making him into a wrestler, Vince decided to take a wrestler and make him into a bodybuilder. Reasoning Luger already had the wrestling training and skills, he would just give him adequate time to shoot up, train and eat and get even bigger. This is why Vince promoted Luger as doing the guest posing at the WBF contest. But Luger wound up getting hurt in a motorcycle accident and by the time he came back, the WBF was over and Vince was getting wind that the feds were onto him for what eventually turned into the steroid scandal. Other than releasing him or paying Luger to sit at home doing nothing, Vince just stuck him out there on tv with that stupid mirror gimmick.

I thought McMahon did that with Luger, because Lou Ferrigno bailed from the WBF, right after the drug testing started. Remember the hype from the '92 show was "The Legend" vs. the WBF champion.

I've heard Larry talk about his training days with Bruno in Pittsburgh. I'd always wondered how much truth there was to it. Now I know.

Very interesting stuff about the gyms. I'd never heard the Goldberg story before!

I was shocked at Larry to say the least. Another shocking thing about him was that up close his face was in the worst condition I have ever seen. I don't mean scars or general wear and tear from wrestling, but his skin was horribly pock marked and he had all these little crater like holes over his face.

About Goldberg, I don't know exactly what set it off or what the truth about that weekend was, but apparently Goldberg and his girl was out in a bar that weekend and when they were leaving this girl waved to him and he smiled and mouth something to her. (?? no idea what, but people said they were about 20 feet apart so most likely it was a "hello" thing) Anyway that girls boyfriend was this big ass Iranian guy that ran a discount supplement place in Midtown over on Amsterdam. (still the best place I ever found when I was into using supps) He wasn't happy about whatever it was or whatever he perceived it to be.

I was working out that Monday when Goldberg came in and started working out, about 25 mins later this Iranian shows up and blows past the front desk and walks up and confronts him about talking to his girl. Goldberg told him to go fuck himself and shoved him back. The guy told him never to speak to his girl again and never put his hands on him again. Goldberg then stepped forward and shot his arms out intending to shove the guy back again and that guy flicked his hands up knocking Goldbergs arms out to the side and then as Goldbergs momentum brought his body forward that snapped his head down and head butted him right in the face. Goldberg took a step backwards from the force of the blow and that dude threw a straight jab that knocked him flat on his back with his head hitting the metal leg of the calf raise machine. He lay there for a few seconds and shook it off while the front and back of his head was pouring blood and jumped up and that Iranian told him "think twice before you do something stupid" and Goldberg came forward swinging hooks which that guy blocked with his forearms and then lit into Goldberg with body punches and an uppercut that put him on his ass. It took about 20 guys to pull him off and march him out the door. As much as I liked Goldberg on tv (WCW days, not wWF) I have to admit that he got his ass handed to him then.

I don't know that Goldberg was all that tough IRL; at least in terms of fighting. I remember when Jericho took him down backstage in WCW. Apparently, it was a very short altercation. Y2J clamped on a front face lock, and that was pretty much the end of it from what I understand.

People who knew Chris during that time have commented off the record that he used gear and could handle himself when out. He was a lot bigger back then, but not so much you'd expect him to handle Goldberg so easily.

I was shocked at Larry to say the least. Another shocking thing about him was that up close his face was in the worst condition I have ever seen. I don't mean scars or general wear and tear from wrestling, but his skin was horribly pock marked and he had all these little crater like holes over his face.

About Goldberg, I don't know exactly what set it off or what the truth about that weekend was, but apparently Goldberg and his girl was out in a bar that weekend and when they were leaving this girl waved to him and he smiled and mouth something to her. (?? no idea what, but people said they were about 20 feet apart so most likely it was a "hello" thing) Anyway that girls boyfriend was this big ass Iranian guy that ran a discount supplement place in Midtown over on Amsterdam. (still the best place I ever found when I was into using supps) He wasn't happy about whatever it was or whatever he perceived it to be.

I was working out that Monday when Goldberg came in and started working out, about 25 mins later this Iranian shows up and blows past the front desk and walks up and confronts him about talking to his girl. Goldberg told him to go fuck himself and shoved him back. The guy told him never to speak to his girl again and never put his hands on him again. Goldberg then stepped forward and shot his arms out intending to shove the guy back again and that guy flicked his hands up knocking Goldbergs arms out to the side and then as Goldbergs momentum brought his body forward that snapped his head down and head butted him right in the face. Goldberg took a step backwards from the force of the blow and that dude threw a straight jab that knocked him flat on his back with his head hitting the metal leg of the calf raise machine. He lay there for a few seconds and shook it off while the front and back of his head was pouring blood and jumped up and that Iranian told him "think twice before you do something stupid" and Goldberg came forward swinging hooks which that guy blocked with his forearms and then lit into Goldberg with body punches and an uppercut that put him on his ass. It took about 20 guys to pull him off and march him out the door. As much as I liked Goldberg on tv (WCW days, not wWF) I have to admit that he got his ass handed to him then.

Andre and Luger had their place. Good workers? No. But they had their place.

GoldbergDavid FlairI agree. WCW was full of guys that never should have laced up a pair of boots.

I HATED Goldberg, and everything about him, just ast Stoppa. But why would you say he had no business being a wrestler? He certainly made it. I'm not arguing with you here, you obviously know way more about the business than I, just a curious question.

GREAT STORIES/INSIGHT GUYS,,,REALLY GOOD TO HAVE KARL KOX BACK,,,,YEAH LUGER WAS HIS BIGGEST FOR THE WBF AND THEN THE ABOVE SAID ACCIDENT,IS THAT WHERE THE GIMMICK FOR THE NARRCISSIST STARTED WITH THE FOREARM PROTECTOR ..

Yes, Andre did have formal training. He even worked with some Englishmen from around the Wigan area if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, you can't expect a man his size to move like a 230-pounder.

Stoppa and I were talking about that exact same thing, just today. Andre is one that was decent at an early age, and later on should be forgiven for being weak just because he was Andre The Giant. I still say that all things included, he was the most popular wrestler of all times.