Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jul 09 2013)

Pistons assistant coach Rasheed Wallace turned down an opportunity to work on Mike Woodson’s staff, citing family reasons. “To me, what signed, sealed and delivered it, and made it more sweet, was the fact that my kids are still in Detroit,” Wallace told reporters on Monday.

74 comments on “Knicks Morning News (Tuesday, Jul 09 2013)”

I still can’t figure out how Leslie went undrafted. The guy had off-the-charts measurables at the draft combine and at least some skills. How did not a single team think he was worth a flyer in the 2nd round?

So the Rockets are trying to get rid of JEREMY LIN…oh they must be so dumb right??? #sarcasm….In other news, Metta’s been cut by the Lakers, do you guys think he could be a good asset for our beloved Knicks??

I believe it was reported that Leslie shut down his process after two visits which does not help when scouts think you can’t shoot or when you have questions about your motor.

Yeah, to be honest, I think Leslie wanted to go undrafted so that he would end up on the Knicks. Remember, with the way that the CBA works, if you don’t go in the first round, you’re better off just going undrafted from a contract perspective, since you can sign with any team you want and then get to become a free agent much earlier. After all, it is not like getting drafted in the second round gives you much job security.

On his podcast yesterday, Simmons suggested that the Pistons try to trade Drummond for Rondo. That deal is nuts for Detroit, right? Even if you think Drummond will never be as good as Rondo, trades like that just don’t happen.

Wow. Was just daydreaming about what Rondo would do with Melo, Amare and Chandler in his front court…
The number of dunks would be epic.
He’d average 15 assists a night.
—
Anyone know if Felton is working out in the off season? Hope he’s not fat.

Cost of living’s also higher in New York, especially if you assume Bassy is helping to support lots of local friends and family. Maybe he wants to go to a cheaper market, and/or one with no state income tax.

Frank O.:
Wow. Was just daydreaming about what Rondo would do with Melo, Amare and Chandler in his front court…
The number of dunks would be epic.
He’d average 15 assists a night.
—
Anyone know if Felton is working out in the off season? Hope he’s not fat.

I’m just going to keep banging my Rondo is overrated drum if everybody doesn’t mind. Rondo rarely sets anyone up for dunks (or layups) and not only because he played with the ancient ass Celtics. If your man sits in the paint instead of guarding you it makes it a lot tougher for anybody to get to the rim. I think Rondo is the assist equivalent of a high-usage low-efficiency scorer. He does get a bunch of assists because the ball is constantly in his hands and because an high proportion of the Celtics shots are generated off his kick-outs. Basically he sets up an extremely high number of “assist opportunities” but they’re low efficiency ones. It’s silly that everyone recognizes that efficient shooting is important but is content to use a pure counting stat like assists.

If Rondo put up those shots himself and shot the percentage that the Celtics shoot on them I suspect he’d be crucified – instead he’s lauded. He’s taken a team with some talented offensive players – Pierce, KG, Bass, Green and captained them to perennial sub-mediocrity as an offense. Why is this guy considered a star?

Frank O.:
Wow. Was just daydreaming about what Rondo would do with Melo, Amare and Chandler in his front court…
The number of dunks would be epic.
He’d average 15 assists a night.
—
Anyone know if Felton is working out in the off season? Hope he’s not fat.

thenamestsam: I’m just going to keep banging my Rondo is overrated drum if everybody doesn’t mind. Rondo rarely sets anyone up for dunks (or layups) and not only because he played with the ancient ass Celtics. If your man sits in the paint instead of guarding you it makes it a lot tougher for anybody to get to the rim. I think Rondo is the assist equivalent of a high-usage low-efficiency scorer. He does get a bunch of assists because the ball is constantly in his hands and because an high proportion of the Celtics shots are generated off his kick-outs. Basically he sets up an extremely high number of “assist opportunities” but they’re low efficiency ones. It’s silly that everyone recognizes that efficient shooting is important but is content to use a pure counting stat like assists.

If Rondo put up those shots himself and shot the percentage that the Celtics shoot on them I suspect he’d be crucified – instead he’s lauded. He’s taken a team with some talented offensive players – Pierce, KG, Bass, Green and captained them to perennial sub-mediocrity as an offense. Why is this guy considered a star?

Simply put, he plays a lot better in the playoffs. Stops chasing assists for one, and he suddenly becomes a walking triple double. On many nights, he simply doesn’t play the same way.

I have to say, I have a lot of confidence in Grunwald. He’s shown a real ability to fill needs with limited room.
I also believe he would be willing to consider trading one of our big three to get a Rondo-like talent.
I wonder if the fact that the contracts of Amare, Melo and Chandler, as well as just about everyone else on the roster, ends in 2015 creates attractive opportunities to move one of our big three guys with Felton to acquire a top five point guard.
Probably not, tho. Amare’s contract and health will always be a concern, so his value is in expiring later. Chandler is still one of the best defense bigs in the league, but injuries and his inability to improve his offensive skills makes him perhaps less attractive. That leaves Melo, and while I believe the Knicks could get a lot for him, I don’t see the franchise doing that…
But I believe that with Rondo and either Chandler, Amare or Melo gone, this team would contend.
And I know the current trend is to have the dominant athletic wing to help you win the championship, I still prefer building a team around a great point guard. I realize this view has been mocked here; it’s just a personal preference.

Brian Cronin:
On his podcast yesterday, Simmons suggested that the Pistons try to trade Drummond for Rondo. That deal is nuts for Detroit, right? Even if you think Drummond will never be as good as Rondo, trades like that just don’t happen.

Simmons just puts out BS ideas that would benefit his team (I think rondo is a better player now, but Drummond would be better for a rebuilding team). Listening to his podcasts with Zach Lowe is always hilarious because he wildly over/underrates players and Lowe has to correct him constantly. I think he’s entertaining (if not informative) to read, but he’s about as much of a basketball expert as I am.

Juany8: Simply put, he plays a lot better in the playoffs. Stops chasing assists for one, and he suddenly becomes a walking triple double. On many nights, he simply doesn’t play the same way.

He definitely has a higher gear he can go to. I think it’s interesting that for a guy who is primarily complimented for his assisting ability he is at his best when he looks to score. He’s very tough to stop from getting to the rim and he’s actually quite good finishing in there. He has those weird ball fakes and the long arms that let him get his shot off effectively even against multiple guys.

However, I’d still point out that a large part of his perceived playoff value is coming from the assists which I think are a lot less valuable than is generally recognized. Maybe playing a different and better system you could use his penetration to generate dunks and 3s instead of mid-range jumpers, but in his current system I don’t think even playoff-Rondo hits the level of franchise player.

custer: Simmons just puts out BS ideas that would benefit his team (I think rondo is a better player now, but Drummond would be better for a rebuilding team). Listening to his podcasts with Zach Lowe is always hilarious because he wildly over/underrates players and Lowe has to correct him constantly. I think he’s entertaining (if not informative) to read, but he’s about as much of a basketball expert as I am.

The one thing in Simmon’s credit is that he has a very good sense of history. I think he’s at his best when he’s talking about history and putting things in a historical context. But as an analyst he’s more in his depth when he’s talking to his buddies and cracking jokes than he is trying to trade punches with Zach Lowe.

Juany8: Simply put, he plays a lot better in the playoffs. Stops chasing assists for one, and he suddenly becomes a walking triple double. On many nights, he simply doesn’t play the same way.

exactly, you beat me to it.

averages aren’t very telling with him, this is a guy who put up 44/10/8 in a playoff game against Miami the year before last, one of the few who can take on LeBron on both ends head to head and actually get into his head at times. also he supposedly can’t shoot, but then in big games, he can, 16-24 in that game (2-2 from 3 point range) and 10-12 from the line.

in fact, if you’re choosing up sides to win a single game and the other team takes LeBron first, Rondo might actually be the best next pick, as LeBron destroys Durant head to head. this is all of course assuming he returns fully from his injury…

However, I’d still point out that a large part of his perceived playoff value is coming from the assists which I think are a lot less valuable than is generally recognized. Maybe playing a different and better system you could use his penetration to generate dunks and 3s instead of mid-range jumpers, but in his current system I don’t think even playoff-Rondo hits the level of franchise player.

averages aren’t very telling with him, this is a guy who put up 44/10/8 in a playoff game against Miami the year before last, one of the few who can take on LeBron on both ends head to head and actually get into his head at times. also he supposedly can’t shoot, but then in big games, he can, 16-24 in that game (2-2 from 3 point range) and 10-12 from the line.

in fact, if you’re choosing up sides to win a single game and the other team takes LeBron first, Rondo might actually be the best next pick, as LeBron destroys Durant head to head. this is all of course assuming he returns fully from his injury…

Rondo went off in that game. No doubt. The other 6 games in that series he averaged a 17 and 11. Nice stats, but you’re picking that guy over Durant?

For the playoffs that year he averaged 15 and 10 per 36 – regular season 12 and 11 per 36. And keep in mind that this wasn’t some cruise through easy teams type of situation. It took Boston 6 games to beat Atlanta and 7 to beat Philly. The guy raises his game but not to the level that people seem to think he does.

I know old, injury prone guys are the new market inefficiency but I’m a little troubled by the Knicks’ interest in Chauncey Billups and Raja Bell. Last year Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas, Rasheed Wallace and Jason Kidd all ended up with bad cases of fall-off-the-cliffitis. The year before it was Baron Davis and Mike Bibby.

How many times does the same thing have to blow up in your face before you start to consider alternatives?

JK47:
I know old, injury prone guys are the new market inefficiency but I’m a little troubled by the Knicks’ interest in Chauncey Billups and Raja Bell.Last year Marcus Camby, Kurt Thomas, Rasheed Wallace and Jason Kidd all ended up with bad cases of fall-off-the-cliffitis.The year before it was Baron Davis and Mike Bibby.

How many times does the same thing have to blow up in your face before you start to consider alternatives?

I read Woodson is pushing for billups.

Unfortunatly… I can see woodson promosing billups a starting SG spot and bringing prigs off the bench. Not opposed to Prigs off the bench… BUT NO BILLUPS IN THE STARTING LINEUP!

He played great in that series. Don’t get me wrong. All I’m saying is that if you’re selling me on a guy who doesn’t play his best every night but is capable of extremely high peaks and you’re selling me on that guy as a franchise altering type of player I think I want more from the peaks than averaging 23 points a night. Lets keep in mind that like every team they played off him dramatically for the most part and dared him to score. And that his 11 assists a night were mostly for midrange jumpers. And that his team, a team not bereft of offensive talent (Pierce, KG, Allen, Bass), averaged less than 90 points in the non-OT games in that series despite him supposedly raising his game to its peak level.

If that’s the peak for a guy who we all agree isn’t that great on a night to night basis I’m not buying him as a franchise player. He’s a very good player. He’s on an excellent contract. But I think he’s very overrated.

Drummond for Rondo? At their respective salaries? And Rondo coming off a knee injury? What?

If Drummond were a Knick and I ran the franchise, he’d be untouchable (aside from LeBron and Durant). I would trade anyone on the roster for him right now. A 19-year-old rookie center putting up those numbers… it just doesn’t happen. Howard wasn’t even that good.

seriously, I don’t even believe in WP48 and I still think Rondo for Drummond is a bad deal (not awful for sure depending on what other filler Detroit would have to put in salary-wise) for Detroit. One guy is like 20 years old and plays the most valued position in the NBA (PG is probably 2nd, true) – Rondo is a great player in his prime, but has the injury issue as well as the fit issue. Rondo, even though he’s improved, just isn’t a good shooter. And no one else on that Detroit team can shoot. That could be the worst shooting team of all time.

In other news – Jared Zwerling is saying that the Knicks have looked into Josh Childress. He used to be the darling of the advanced stats crowd, but has been truly horrific (like beyond the pale terrible) the last several years. Not sure how I feel about that.

thenamestsam: I’m just going to keep banging my Rondo is overrated drum if everybody doesn’t mind. Rondo rarely sets anyone up for dunks (or layups) and not only because he played with the ancient ass Celtics. If your man sits in the paint instead of guarding you it makes it a lot tougher for anybody to get to the rim. I think Rondo is the assist equivalent of a high-usage low-efficiency scorer. He does get a bunch of assists because the ball is constantly in his hands and because an high proportion of the Celtics shots are generated off his kick-outs. Basically he sets up an extremely high number of “assist opportunities” but they’re low efficiency ones. It’s silly that everyone recognizes that efficient shooting is important but is content to use a pure counting stat like assists.

I like the sentiment and get the intuition, but the numbers don’t bear this out. Over the last four years Rondo has averaged 4.7 assists “at the rim” per40 which compares favorably to Paul (4.1) D Williams (4.1) Westbrook (3.3) Conley (3.0) Parker (3.0) Lebron (3.0) and everyone else who isn’t named Steve Nash (5.3 despite including a plunge to 3.6 last year).

And his at-the-rim assists are definitely not subnormal as a % of his total assists. They have averaged 40% over those four years (39% last year). Paul was 37%. DWill 41%. Westbrook 40%. Conley 41%. Parker 34%. Lebron 39%. Only Nash again is notably higher at 44%. And Boston hasn’t exactly been filled with rim rattlers over that period.

ptmilo: I like the sentiment and get the intuition, but the numbers don’t bear this out.Over the last four years Rondo has averaged 4.7 assists “at the rim” per40 which compares favorably to Paul (4.1) D Williams (4.1) Westbrook (3.3) Conley (3.0) Parker (3.0) Lebron (3.0) and everyone else who isn’t named Steve Nash (5.3 despite including a plunge to 3.6 last year).

And his at-the-rim assists are definitely not subnormal as a % of his total assists.They have averaged 40% over those four years (39% last year).Paul was 37%.DWill 41%.Westbrook 40%.Conley 41%.Parker 34%.Lebron 39%.Only Nash again is notably higher at 44%.And Boston hasn’t exactly been filled with rim rattlers over that period.

Very interesting stats. Maybe my intuition is wrong. Where did you get those numbers? And do they have % of assists leading to 3s or anything like that?

Hubert: I’m 99% sure it’s Kenyon Martin waiting to get a better offer from another team.He sat out half of last year to avoid taking the minimum, I doubt he is in a rush to take it now.

That sucks!!! I think we need an enforcer badly. I don’t wanna see the Knicks getting punked by teams like Bkln, Chicago, Indiana, etc. As crazy as it sounds, I’ll like to have Metta on the team also…Just like the old times with Mase, Oak and Starks…

Hubert: I’m 99% sure it’s Kenyon Martin waiting to get a better offer from another team.He sat out half of last year to avoid taking the minimum, I doubt he is in a rush to take it now.

Jeez, Raja Bell is looking like a must-get all of a sudden.
Maybe we can lure Kristic back to the States? He’s only 29 (although it seems like he’s 39.)
There’s also a PF/C named Shawn James who’s killin it in Israel.

I’m not saying we won’t get him. But I think he has an inflated sense of his value and needs the market to prove to him that he’s not going to get someone’s full mini-MLE before he settles for the vet’s minimum.

Childress for the minimum is livable, though I’d prefer other guys. Childress for the remainder of the mini-MLE? Blech.

Yep. Honestly, I don’t know if Childress is all that livable even for the vet minimum, as Leslie seems like he can do everything Childress can do already. Childress just cannot shoot. This team needs more shooters who can play defense. Childress doesn’t really do the former and hasn’t even done the latter for awhile now.

Brian Cronin:
On his podcast yesterday, Simmons suggested that the Pistons try to trade Drummond for Rondo. That deal is nuts for Detroit, right? Even if you think Drummond will never be as good as Rondo, trades like that just don’t happen.

I just heard this podcast. You’re understating it!

It was Rondo for Drummond AND swap expiring contracts to take Gerald Wallace AND throw in multiple DET draft picks.

Rondo, who could miss half next season, so you’d have him for 1.5 years til he hits free agency. For 6 years of Drummond.

I don’t know why people are so hyped on the Grunwald train. The more I think about it, he had one big hit: Pablo Prigioni. I don’t want to re-open the “how good was Copeland?” argument, but can we all agree that he was at best $3m/year player? He also didn’t even play 1000 minutes for us in the regular season. I don’t see him as a major coup.

The other guys he added were Marcus Camby, Jason Kidd, Rasheed Wallace, James White, Steve Novak, and Kurt Thomas, all of whom were useless in the playoffs. Ronnie Brewer, who was a disaster anyway, and JR Smith are more likely a result to the Dolan/CAA circle jerk, not Grunwald.

Kenyon Martin was move of desperation. Chandler was hurt and KMart was the only big of any note who was available. Had Grunwald picked him up early season rather than the bags of bones he chose, Chandler might not have played so many early season minutes and thus may have been healthier in the playoffs.

We won 54 games, but then we played in the playoffs like a 47 win team, scratching past a hobbled Celtics team and losing to Indiana in the second round. So yeah, overall Grunwald did slightly surpass my expectations, but I don’t see him as a miracle worker.

But he also picked up Lin and Novak the previous year. And heck, he technically drafted Fields, as well (I think I recall that that wasn’t Grunwald’s pick, though, but I could be wrong).

So it is not Prigs and Copeland in a vaccuum, it’s Prigs and Copeland after Lin and Novak last year and Fields the year before. Five players plucked out of obscurity that turned out to be major contributors to the team. That’s a rarity for any GM.

Walsh was absent for the draft (and specifically noted that he was not too involved in the drafting that year as he was too out of it) due to his surgery, which is why I’m giving Grunwald credit for the pick.

I think it’s interesting that Grunwald’s stealthier pick-ups have for the most part started excellently and then shown a serious propensity for turning back into pumpkins. Fields clearly did, Kidd did, Novak turned into a pumpkin in the playoffs both seasons, Sheed pumpkined because of injury, I’m sure some would debate this but Lin basically did. It’s an interesting trend that I’m not sure what to make of. Maybe just total noise.

max fisher-cohen:
I don’t know why people are so hyped on the Grunwald train. The more I think about it, he had one big hit: Pablo Prigioni. I don’t want to re-open the “how good was Copeland?” argument, but can we all agree that he was at best $3m/year player? He also didn’t even play 1000 minutes for us in the regular season. I don’t see him as a major coup.

The other guys he added were Marcus Camby, Jason Kidd, Rasheed Wallace, James White, Steve Novak, and Kurt Thomas, all of whom were useless in the playoffs. Ronnie Brewer, who was a disaster anyway, and JR Smith are more likely a result to the Dolan/CAA circle jerk, not Grunwald.

Kenyon Martin was move of desperation. Chandler was hurt and KMart was the only big of any note who was available. Had Grunwald picked him up early season rather than the bags of bones he chose, Chandler might not have played so many early season minutes and thus may have been healthier in the playoffs.

We won 54 games, but then we played in the playoffs like a 47 win team, scratching past a hobbled Celtics team and losing to Indiana in the second round. So yeah, overall Grunwald did slightly surpass my expectations, but I don’t see him as a miracle worker.

still not sure how they missed out on picking up Birdman while they were reuniting the 2009 Denver team.

Though his D has been mediocre for a while and his O disappeared long ago, on the floor, I agree that Metta Weird can help fill a huge toughness void in the current roster. It won’t show up in the numbers but he can have an impact. As a special bonus, off the floor, he can sate the longings of fans wistful for the days when headlines about Vaseline consumption, harassment suits, and spectacularly ill-advised player acquisitions appeared like clockwork to uphold the reputation and pride of Knickdom.

I get why others anticipate enjoying his effort and toughness. “Careful what you wish for” comes to mind.

I don’t like him both because of what he does and because I don’t buy his act: a well-intentioned stand-up guy trying to make good for the excesses of his past; a wide-eyed innocent whose benign nature was twisted by his overly passionate nature and the mean streets of his childhood; a misunderstood naive soul hounded by a crass media and a society that mislabels him as a threat; etc., etc. Obviously I don’t know the guy or know what he’s “really” like. Whether it’s real or not, it’s never seemed credible to me and it’s not an act I enjoy watching.

There’s a place about halfway between Dennis Rodman and Tim Duncan that I think makes for a great sports entertainment persona. MWP’s brand of entertainment is better suited to a bad soap opera than sports IMO.

I would still love Nate Robinson, he was incredible for the Bulls last year and would be a good fit for the focal point of the offense role if Melo or JR is out. I don’t see how he doesn’t get at least $3M per though if he wants.

(let’s all click our heels together three times and say ‘please CAA, please CAA, please CAA’)

jon abbey:
I would still love Nate Robinson, he was incredible for the Bulls last year and would be a good fit for the focal point of the offense role if Melo or JR is out. I don’t see how he doesn’t get at least $3M per though if he wants.

(let’s all click our heels together three times and say ‘please CAA, please CAA, please CAA’)

I feel like there was this guy once who also mentioned wanting to bring in Nate… Lenny, Danny… jeez, I can’t remember. I wish he would just chime in about Nate more often!