B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum

Tell us about interesting projects involving biblical Greek. Collaborative projects involving biblical Greek may use this forum for their communication - please contact jonathan.robie@ibiblio.org if you want to use this forum for your project.

Creating a Koine book of phrases as a resource for a communicative approach to learning.

Contributors could help in the following ways:

General: Helping to define the purpose and scope of the book.
Editing: Cleaning up the formatting or tags in the phrasebook file.
Researching: Adding phrases from other online sources, such as Sprechen Sie Attisch
Researching: Looking into primers or other books for good phrases.
Reviewing: Checking over the list for mistakes, natural usage, clarifications.
One time contribution: Add phrases you use in communicative teaching / learning.
Ongoing contribution: Adding phrases that fit the purpose of the book as you encounter them in reading.

If we can get at least 5 contributors by 1 Feb 2012, I will consider the project a "go."
Respond to this post if you are interested.

If we get at least 5, then we would use this same discussion thread to define the purpose and scope of the phrasebook, the deadline for completion, and perhaps assign duties.

PD Nitz – Σαῦλος

________________________________________________________________________
Several B-Greek discussion threads have touched on, or directly discussed a phrasebook.

The most relevant was Barry Hofstetter’s post from October 2011* in which he said,

“In Latin I have a bunch of common classroom statements/questions that I force the students to use, but not so much for Greek…. There's a lot of support for this type of thing for Latin, but practically nothing for Greek. “

WHERE THE LIST SHOULD RESIDE?
The Σχολη site would be a natural place for this list to reside, if they are willing. They already have some phrases collected and a discussion had taken place. http://sxole.com/page/the-basics

HOW TO CHECK USAGE:
Does anyone have some directions as to how to check usage?
For example, let's say I'm trying to figure out what word or phrase to use for "Do you understand?" in the context of a lesson?
I've been using συνιημι --> συνηκας; συνήκατε;
I've also seen καταλαμβανω --> κατελαβες, κατελαβετε

Until another 10 years go by and I develop the sprachgefuhl, I am stuck using some digital research tools. If I search for συνῆκας I can make the Tufts hopperizer give me some hits on the where the lemma συνιημι is used.http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... 9&la=greek

I can tell me Logos program to search the LXX, GNT, and Perseus collection for the exact word συνῆκας.

But, neither method is easy and very helpful thing for me. First, I cannot just read Greek off the page from the hits I get. I don't know if there's an easy way to see a translation. That would help. Secondly, I really don't know where this Greek is from. If I get a hit from Euthyphro, that tells me naught all (without spending more time than I have researching who this Greek dude is). Is this 7th Century BC Greek or 1st Century? Is there a list of Koine Greek collections so that I could narrow my search and only see Koine hits?

τί εστιν τουτο; What (neuter) is this (neuter)?
οὕτος εστιν καρπόν. This (masculine) is a fruit (masculine).

I figured that was correct. Matching the antecedent would certainly be right in Bantu languages.

But then a month ago, I was playing the "Where are Your Keys" language learning game and picking up a little German from a friend, I asked "Was ist das?" My German friend replied, "Das ist eine frucht." I said, "Shouldn't it be 'deine ist eine frucht?'" Nope. Das. A neuter demonstrative pronoun with a feminine antecedent. Hmm. So what about Greek?

How do you search for this sort of usage with Perseus or Logos or other means? I don't know of a way.

This is the sort of thing that could answered quickly by checking in a KOINE PHRASEBOOK.

Page 399 Robertson
The phrase τοῦτ’ ἔστιν is used in epexegetical
apposition with the subject, as ὀλίγοι, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί (1 Pet.
3:20). But the phrase is a mere expletive and has no effect on
number (as seen above) or case. It can be used indifferently with
any case as the locative (Ro. 7:18), the instrumental (Mk. 7:2),
the accusative (Ac. 19:4; Heb. 13:15; Phil. 12), the genitive
(Heb. 9:11; 11:16). Any number of words or phrases may be
in apposition, as in ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις, ὁ ἀρχαῖος, ὁκαλού-
μενος Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανˆς, ὁ πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην (Rev. 12:9).

Smyth
1239
A demonstrative pronoun may agree in gender with a substantive predicated of it, if connected with the substantive by a copulative verb ( cross917) expressed or understood: αὕτη (for τοῦτο) ἀρίστη διδασκαλία_this is the best manner of learning X. C. 8.7.24, εἰ δέ τις ταύτην (for τοῦτο) εἰρήνην ὑπολαμβάνει but if any one regards this as peace D. 9.9.
a. But the unattracted neuter is common, especially in definitions where the pronoun is the predicate: τοῦτ' ἔστιν ἡ δικαιοσύνη this is (what we call) justice P. R. 432b. So οὐχ ὕβρις ταῦτ' ἐστί; is not this insolence? Ar.Ran. 21.

We should split this thread into two. One on a public Koine Conversational Phrasebook and one on Gender Agreement. I'd like to see a Wiki type phrasebook that is linked to or has a section of citations backing up the phrase and showing its usages in different contexts. I think that would be extremely helpful and give confidence to people that they are not speaking a Koine pidgin.

"speaking a Koine pidgin" -- and teaching "Koine pidgin" or at least highly idiosyncratic Koine to my students -- is my greatest fear and reservation about the whole "teach biblical Greek as if a living language" movement.

thanks to all who are pursuing the "communicative approach" to Koine, and sharing here on b-greek. I am on the trailing edge, but am beginning to incorporate bits and pieces in my online teaching. Why, just last semester I started writing
ευχαριστω σοι or ευχαριστω υμιν
rather than "thanks!" when responding to student posts...

who knows what καινα might come out of my keyboard this time around (class starts Monday)...

Louis L Sorenson wrote:I'd like to see a Wiki type phrasebook that is linked to or has a section of citations backing up the phrase and showing its usages in different contexts. I think that would be extremely helpful and give confidence to people that they are not speaking a Koine pidgin.