Skip the mando parts, it actually works better. Especially in the 5th book.

Granted there are still a lot of other problems.

I've been thinking a lot about Jacen's fall after finishing Fate of the Jedi. And I don't think it fall to the dark is nearly as bad as I once did. In the NJO books. Jacen was pretty arrogant at times. Maybe not in the same way as Kyp and some others, but he always seemed to want to make the big gesture and do something big. Be it cut himself from the Force to teach all the other Jedi or thinking he knows better then everyone else. Looking at him in that perspective makes it slightly more believable that he'll think he could learn the Sith teachings without making the same mistakes as those before him. Especially if he felt the fate of the galaxy was at stake.

Yeah, I've reread it more than once skipping the Mando parts and it does read better, but honestly that's not saying a lot. I just don't think I can do one more reread.

And totally agree with you on Jacen. In fact, I expressed a few years ago while LOTF was still ongoing that Jacen falling to the dark side is not a contradiction of NJO, because NJO definitely laid the groundwork. After NJO it could have gone either way with Jacen. Really, I see Jacen as having quite a bit a bit of his grandfather, Anakin Skywalker, in him, particularly the arrogance. Let's face it, Leia could have her arrogant moments too, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree._________________Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:47 pm

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Leia OrganaPadawan

Joined: 15 Apr 2012Posts: 9Location: Alderaan

Jacen was always my favourite EU character. I was just at the right chronological age to read the YJK series and I associated with his character a lot, enough to form somewhat of a lit-crush on him.

Flash forward to last year when I started picking up the NJO books and I decide to do a quick wookie-search... imagine my surprise when the Jacen Solo page redirected to Darth Caedus! I was heartbroken.

From a literature perspective, I was somewhat disappointed with how his character arc was handled. The jump from YJK-Jacen to early-NJO Jacen was disjointing, though I brushed it off; there were bound to be characterization and perspective shifts between the two series, from the different authors, to the vastly different storyline and form of storytelling, and also simply because it was a jump from a teenager character in a YA novel to a teenage character in an adult novel.

Within NJO, I think Jacen was handled very well. His early indecision may not have made for the most exciting of reading material, but it made Traitor all the more potent and memorable, and helped to built up to an amazing culmination of the series. The fangirl inside me couldn't help but cheer him on the whole way.

Then.... DN came. Another sudden, awkward characterization shift, and this one much less forgivable than the beginning of NJO. Looking back, I can see it all as setup for LOTF, but at the time, my brain was just stumbling trying to pick up the pieces. I couldn't even lie to myself and tell myself it would all get better, since I knew Darth Caedus was looming in the future, even if I didn't know the where, why, and when.

I actually found myself cheering Jacen on in LOTF. By the time he started down the path, I knew there was no going back so I Just jumped right in with in. He was shaping up to be a good villain, one I hoped would be a major driving force during this next Star Wars generation. Instead, his fall and death were way too short.

I guess this is the point where I admit I pretty much cried all the way through Invincible. The jokes at the beginning of each chapter were a poignant reminder of the old Jacen, the one I read and loved as a young teenage girl, such a far cry from the dark, brooding Sith. At this point, I didn't even want Caedus as an epic villain; I just wanted my Jacen back. Of course, neither of those things were to be. Jacen may as well have died back at the end of NJO.

Looking back at more of an emotional distance, I still think Jacen could have been an amazing long term villain. I like the longer story arcs that Del Ray has been bringing to the EU, but I think there's a lack of overall cohesion that Caedus could have filled as an antagonist. Ideally, if I were in charge of the Galaxy, I would have spread his fall over a much larger time frame, filled in the gaps with smaller books and series here and there, and saved the longer series for a grand stand-off of some sort. This also would have had the benefit of spreading things out so it didn't feel quite so rushed.

Anyway, this post already kind of ended up longer than I meant it to.

tl;dr: Jacen was a good character, but DN/LOTF rushed through him and spat him out like bad wine. I'll miss him a lot.

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:08 am

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darthrevan1Knight

Joined: 18 Nov 2011Posts: 451

I havent read all the posts on this thread but having read Apocalypse

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What are peoples opinions on why Jacen turned to the darkside? His dark vision of Allana

_________________"You see that I was right, now, dont you?. The truth is written in blood"

I've completely forgotten what happened in the vision. Wasn't it something to do with Krayt turning Allana?

I'm happy with that. Parents taking the proverbial bullet for their children is a popular theme, and a good one, I feel.

_________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:59 am

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darthrevan1Knight

Joined: 18 Nov 2011Posts: 451

Life Is The Path wrote:

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I've completely forgotten what happened in the vision. Wasn't it something to do with Krayt turning Allana?

I'm happy with that. Parents taking the proverbial bullet for their children is a popular theme, and a good one, I feel.

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Allana was beside a dark man in the vision. If I remember correctly

_________________"You see that I was right, now, dont you?. The truth is written in blood"

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:43 am

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7121Location: Sailing into the unknown

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I don't remember the details of the vision either. This isn't a good sign, is it?

_________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 pm

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CerrineaMaster

Joined: 09 Jun 2009Posts: 1491

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There weren't any details; just Jacen's one line about Allana being with the Dark Man. Which is probably why you don't remember any details.

From a literature perspective, I was somewhat disappointed with how his character arc was handled. The jump from YJK-Jacen to early-NJO Jacen was disjointing, though I brushed it off; there were bound to be characterization and perspective shifts between the two series, from the different authors, to the vastly different storyline and form of storytelling, and also simply because it was a jump from a teenager character in a YA novel to a teenage character in an adult novel.....

Then.... DN came. Another sudden, awkward characterization shift, and this one much less forgivable than the beginning of NJO. Looking back, I can see it all as setup for LOTF, but at the time, my brain was just stumbling trying to pick up the pieces.

The personality jump from YJK to NJO was a little abrupt, but considering there's a little over a year of difference there its not impossible. Later-YJK jacen was (to my memory and it has been a long time since I read it), a lot less aggressive than Jaina, Tenel and Lowie, so for him to be more withdrawn is possible. He always had a love for animals, which would also lead to a more peaceful approach to being a jedi. Then of course, there's whatever experiences he had training under Mara with Anakin which may have shaped him as well (and which are never addressed).

Additionally, his changed personality there could be informed by the changing shape of the galaxy with a general peace and minor local conflagrations. He may have seen that mediation from a distancewas a better approach than direct confrontation.

Admittedly it was a tad odd, but explicable (though a bridge novel wouldn't hurt either)

The switch from NJO to DN however, is easily explained by the fact that there's a 6 year difference from the end of one series to the beginning of the next. There's a LOT of changes in characterizations and events there that are never explained and were quite jaring. The Jedi which had learned to get along on the same path at the end of NJO were once again at each other's throats. Jacen was as explained above. Jaina was suddenly back in a semi-romantic partnership with Zekk even though that hadn't existed basically at all in NJO. Jag had disappeared back to the Chiss Ascendency. Omas who was a friend of the Jedi was now almost an antagonist and happy to manipulat them for political gain. The government had supposedly been moved to Denon while Coruscant was rebuilt, but suddenly they were back on Coruscant like nothin had ever happened....need I continue?

All of those are possible to explain, but with 6 years left completely empty, there's a lot that could have happened that we have no idea about. And they should really make an effort to bridge that. (not to speak for the 4 years from DN to LOTF)

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:12 pm

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DancelittleewokEUC Staff

Joined: 15 Sep 2010Posts: 1177Location: Kansas

Darth Cadeus would've killed Darth Cadeus. Jacen, in a series of trials by Lumiya, must choose take one life or destroy many in Betrayal. Jacen completes each task until he murders Nelani. Jaina is sent to murder Darth Cadeus, using similar reasoning. Based on his own reasoning, Darth Cadeus would be killed. His life was causing far too much damage - and based on his actions in Betrayal, he would've chosen to end it. Cadeus was focused on seeing Allana on the throne. The Jedi recognized his destructiveness.

Perhaps the Jedi and Cadeus have more in common than originally thought._________________Observation: Life would be cooler if everyone spoke like HK-47.

I was also of the opinion that Jacen should have lasted longer than he did. I mean, with FOTJ bringing back pretty much everyone Luke has ever met, it would have been conceivable for Jacen to survive the series. I think they should have had him fall from power, but not kill him yet. I actually, was kind of glad though, that they didn't have Jacen get redeemed, it was a decent deviation from the norm. Personally, Im hoping for a book following Jacens journey, I mean in all those years there mut have been some adventures besides those we got a glimpse of in FOTJ.

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:12 am

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deathstar3Padawan

Joined: 29 Jan 2012Posts: 24

Jacen's personally my favorite character in the EU. _________________"That's no moon, that's a space station."

-Ben Kenobi

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:05 am

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Dog-Poop_WalkerMaster

Joined: 28 Jan 2012Posts: 1169Location: Deserts without mirages

Cerrinea wrote:

I'd reread LOTF, but I don't think I can stand to.

And Jacen was also having the Dark Man on the Throne visions so there's that, which fits in FOTJ.

old post, yeah, but I didn't see it before and I just finished FOTJ:Crapocalypse, which goes towards the point I was making before.

In LOTF Luke is the one that has the vision of "the dark man", it never says anything about Jacen seeing him and nothing about the Throne of BS. In Invincible when he gets killed -spoiler alert- he says something like "it's Ok because Allana will be safe now" which could either be more Troy Denning BS or it could just mean "...because the Galactic Civil War will be over."

In LOTF it strongly implies that the "dark man" is Cadeus, and in FOTJ it implies that it's Luke when Luke asks him "Is it me?" and he doesn't say anything and then Luke thinks that is a yes. So yeah, they didn't say specifically it was Luke, they just showed Luke thinking that it was. What kind of crappy red herring is that?

and then in Crapocalypse they say, yeah, it was Darth Dingus, when they've never even hinted at that in the past 18 books._________________Unsure whether it was desire or despair that kept me drawing breath. When all my dreams came down to nothing, left me just another piece of meat. For you I carried my life on in my teeth. Through betrayed years and bloody tears, and pits where you can only crawl. Poor Grendel's had an accident... So may you all.

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:16 pm

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DancelittleewokEUC Staff

Joined: 15 Sep 2010Posts: 1177Location: Kansas

Jacen did have visions of the Dark Man and the White Throne. If Jacen is able to identify him in Apocalypse, then why does he mistaken him for Luke in LOTF? If they were worried about this threat, why not talk about it?_________________Observation: Life would be cooler if everyone spoke like HK-47.

Jacen was, by far, my favorite character. Is it because my real name is Jason, maybe. I have no idea if that is why_________________

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:38 am

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Mara Jade SkywalkerAdministrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008Posts: 5799Location: Beyond Shadows

I have always said I would spell my child's name Jacen, if I were to name him that. As a result, I constantly spell it wrong for other people. The Jason spelling is like foreign to me. Is that bad? _________________
"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker