In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Is it possible you can make a single post that doesn't blame Brady for every inadequacy of every guy on the team? It's really getting tired. Even UD6 isn't anywhere near this anal.Posted by BabeParilli

Umm, Ochocinco and his relationship with Brady and this possible decision to keep him for a full camp to see what he looks like, is absolutely part of the discussion.

LOL idiot. You blame Brady for not working with Ocho when there is games he isn't even on the field. You think Brady set the game day roster clown? Why aren't you blaming Belichick for wasting money on Ocho and not suiting him up for games including playoff games. You can't throw the ball to a guy that's not on the field. That's Brady's call right? Keep pushing your anti Brady agenda while ignoring half the things happening are Belichick call..but he's can't be blamed. Clueless.

He just needs more reps, and passes thrown his way, then i think we can make a correct assessment of if he needs to be here or not, but Honestly, would you guys throw to Ocho as much if you had Gronk the BEAST and hernandez on your team along with wes as your 1-3 options?

I'm anti any player on the Patriots that doesn't help produce wins. I'm sorry you are mad at Brady and blame Brady for scratching Ocho of game day rosters and getting no snaps on game day. It's unforuntate that a coach as well established as Belichick has to bow to Brady's wishes. Or maybe he doesn't think Ocho was good enough to get on the field last year. Hmm. Tough call. Nice try.

He just needs more reps, and passes thrown his way, then i think we can make a correct assessment of if he needs to be here or not, but Honestly, would you guys throw to Ocho as much if you had Gronk the BEAST and hernandez on your team along with wes as your 1-3 options?Posted by 81patsfan

Exactly. It makes sense that he woulfn't get a ton of looks, but it was in the games where the offense was over-manged by O'Brien, where they faced good front 7s, where he could hve been used more.

That's the difference. He could have been very valuable at certain points. Heck, even in that 1st Jets game he caught a 3rd down pass before half to help move the sticks to score some points. He started getting looks in the middle of seasons, Brady would force it into double coverage for INTs, and somehow this is Ocho's fault?

It's just excuses for Brady. Ocho is the scapegoat that distracts from the elephant in the room (Brady's passing addicition against good front 7s).

In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Umm, Ochocinco and his relationship with Brady and this possible decision to keep him for a full camp to see what he looks like, is absolutely part of the discussion.Posted by BassFishing

Bashing the greatest player we have ever had is part of every discussion for you.

LOL. Sorry you got you panties in the bunch. It has nothing to be with being a new artist. That should be obvious. Unless you want to show me the vast collection of Cam songs that are about good messages and not pushing coke and balling be my guest. I don't think you will be find much. I'm just point out that was laughable to claim your about hip hop with messages and one of you favorites is Cam. Give me break.

Branch only caught 51% of his targets which is terrible for a guy who is supposed to be here because of his all important "chemistry" with Tom Brady.

He had only 19 receptions in the last 8 games of the season despite playing 75% of the snaps???

IMO Ocho should have received Branch's playing time the last half of the season as he learned a little more of the play book. He was averaging 18.4 ypc which would be good for top 5 in the league. The deep threat we needed may have been on our roster but only got 25% of the snaps.

Oh my bad, I thought you were referring to him being a new artist. I dont want to distract the thread with a music discussion, but lets just say I listen to all types of music. Being an adult, I can listen to music without being influenced by it. The new music that glorifies drug selling by people who dont sell drugs is what bothers me. I actually think Cam'ron is very funny. I met him before and if he chooses to rap about what he went through, or what he does, thats fine.

Its scum like R.Ross who say "8 Ball" more than 15 times in a verse, has no substance and no drug selling backround and got called out by the Real Rick Ross for stealing his name. Listen, Rap is about telling your story, your struggle. I dont wanna hear a fat, ex C.O talking about selling keys. It means you are glorifying something you never did.

Camron is just speaking on what he did and maybe still does. Neither may not be positive, but its entertainment, and I respect someone for being real.

Camron isnt even relevant outside of mix tapes. Hasnt been for a few years so when I say he is one my favorite artists, thats past tense. I dont have any Cam in my Ipod, but when I was on my ignorant shyt, I enjoyed his music. We are talking 8 -10 years ago. I wouldnt let my children listen to any of it, because they can be influenced. I just feel back in my day, cats spoke on their experiences and now rappers talk about what the label wants them to- Drugs, women, violence. If you know as much about Cam as you say, you know he is funny and entertaining.

I apologize if the way I worded it was insulting. Just hearing Cam and " liking music with a message " is strange. It's like saying I only listen to gansta rap and your favorite artists are De La Soul and Tribe Called Quest. But this is way off subject so sorry for mucking up the thread.

I was hoping for more from 85 last year, especially over the last 4 games of the season and in the playoffs. But I am happy he is coming back to try to make a go of it. The worst that can happen is they cut him and keep someone else.

Having Welker, Gonzalez, Edelman and even Hernandez as slot types is great. Having Lloyd as the primary is great. Having Stallworth who has tons of speed yet is great. Having Branch and 85 competing for time is great.

I expect the passing game will be the two TEs, the third TE also in the mix. Welker a critical target as always. Lloyd as the main guy from the other WR spot which should be a big deal. Hoping for something around 60-70 catches from Lloyd along with just keeping the D more honest. Hoping that Stallworth will do what he did last time in drawing coverage deep and away from the middle.

I do not expect more than 45 catches from the group of Branch, 85 and Stallworth. But I expect one or two of them to add up to that number.

I also expect something from the RBs. I hold out hope Vereen will be a real impact player. I think he can be. But so far it is only hope. If any of the RBs makes good than I guess that is YET ANOTHER success for the currrent GM.

In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Another Rusty alias? Shall we judge all receivers on target/catch percentage? Perhaps another factor may be the ability to get open in the first place. Man, did you see how awesome Slater was last year when TB threw him the ball? I'm pretty sure I saw everyon eone of Ocho's catches last year. The big ones were all on busted plays by the D.Posted by Bustchise

No they weren't. I have a feeling you didn't really watch every one of Ocho's plays. Either you are lying or "misremembering" like our friend Roger Clemens.

And yes judging a receiver on his number of targets caught is very accurate at least when you have a great QB throwing him the ball.

If Branch had that % of targets caught with Tim Tebow as his QB I would say its not too bad, but I am confident that more often then not Brady was getting Branch the ball, he was just covered or dropping it.

51 receptions on 90 targets with the best QB in the league throwing you the ball is not great. If you disagree with that then you clearly have an agenda.

In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Another Rusty alias? Shall we judge all receivers on target/catch percentage? Perhaps another factor may be the ability to get open in the first place. Man, did you see how awesome Slater was last year when TB threw him the ball? I'm pretty sure I saw everyon eone of Ocho's catches last year. The big ones were all on busted plays by the D.Posted by Bustchise

And no just because 2 people disagree with you it doesn't mean they are the same person, and in this case its because your wrong.

In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Another Rusty alias? Shall we judge all receivers on target/catch percentage? Perhaps another factor may be the ability to get open in the first place. Man, did you see how awesome Slater was last year when TB threw him the ball? I'm pretty sure I saw everyon eone of Ocho's catches last year. The big ones were all on busted plays by the D.Posted by Bustchise

How stupid do you, JintsFan, Babe, Tom Penny, et al, claiming I have aliases simply because there are other very intelligent and knowledgeable Pats that agree with me and I with them?

And you're a Jets troll here to boot making incorrect statements and lying about me needing aliases, and you're the one WITH THE ALIASES.

You registered here on 12.18 with a new character and persona and yet you know who I am as Rusty? Isn't that interesting. You seem to know a lot for someone who just registered here, don't you?

In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Exactly. He was the 5th receiving option. It's not like Gaffney where we needed a #2 flanker badly and Gaffney had tons of reps there. Ocho outperformed Gaffney in less reps. Each had to learn on the fly, but Gaffney had more reps. Brady should be in there for mini camp working with him and Lloyd on the flanks. Work the flanks more. This year was the first year in a while, where I saw Brady basically only look down the hasharks and not really target the flanks. We lost in the SB due to not implementing him and of course running BJGE 9 total times (before his last carry).Posted by BassFishing

Not sure what your talking about Russ. Gaffney was not the #2 in 2007. Gaffney may have seen more balls but in 2007 Pats had Moss, Wes, Stallworth, Watson and Gaffney.Gaff. 2007. 36 rctpts/449 yds/5 td/21 1st downsOcho. 2011. 15 rcpts/276 yds/1 td/13 1st downs

In Response to Re: Ocho is here to stay : Not sure what your talking about Russ. Gaffney was not the #2 in 2007. Gaffney may have seen more balls but in 2007 Pats had Moss, Wes, Stallworth, Watson and Gaffney. Gaff. 2007. 36 rctpts/449 yds/5 td/21 1st downs Ocho. 2011. 15 rcpts/276 yds/1 td/13 1st downs 2007 GaffneyPosted by rkarp

And did his better production help us win the superbowl that year? No! and isnt that the ultimate goal? matter of fact he was invisible that whole game, look why are we picking apart one players contribution when B.B always and clearly emphasizes that his is a TEAM, they lose as a TEAM and they win as a TEAM, yea some might have more production than others but if your on the team usually you contribute in some way. It might not always be what us fans are looking for but OCHO made some key blocks downfield, and the short time he was on the field he even made so nice sideline catches. He has a full offseason lets see what he does. If B.B want a team full of superstars he woulnt trade out of the first round or pass up on top rated fre agents, 90-95% of the time.