This is why Blizzard sense of scale and proportion pisses me off to no end, as does their unwillingness ro fully explore potential ramifications of their storylines.

->What about ongoing Orc migration from Outland? Garrosh himself ventured to Azeroth past TBC, why others of his kind have been swept under the carpet?

->What about Orc rebels joining the insurection forces? With the memories of first Horde -as hazy as they may be- still lingering as the witnesses are still alive, there HAS to be some notion among orcs that Garrosh's path would doom them all.

->What about other settlements? What is their relation to this power shift?

Still, it is nowhere near as bad as how goblin survivors of Gallywix's prison ship being somehow numerous enough to not only populate a sizeable metropolis along with a district in ORG, but also deal with particularly heavy casualties and loss of life even in the early questing zones. Either Gallywix's ship had the holding capacity of a space colonization vessel, or population of Kezan has been shrunk to fit in as accessories in city boxes or we have a bad case of BS proportions and scale.

->What about ongoing Orc migration from Outland? Garrosh himself ventured to Azeroth past TBC, why others of his kind have been swept under the carpet?

To be perfectly honest, a good bunch of Mag'har joined Garrosh in the "migration". In Stonetalon he arrives with a whole platoon of half-naked (lol) Mag'har orcs for take care of Krom'gar's men; in Silverpine there is Warlord Cromush (the one instructed of "watch" Sylvanas) and Blademaster Ishi during all the Pandaren campaign in the 5.1. And finally, the "True Horde" that supports Garrosh in the final encounter of SoO are all damn Mag'har, even that freaking engineer activating the Iron Star.

->What about Orc rebels joining the insurection forces? With the memories of first Horde -as hazy as they may be- still lingering as the witnesses are still alive, there HAS to be some notion among orcs that Garrosh's path would doom them all.

The memories of the Old Horde belongs mostly to the older veterans like Saurfang and Eitrigg, the younger orcs mostly grew up in the internement camps.

Anyway seems that someone don't understand that the orcish military power increased A LOT between Cataclysm and Tides of War, since Garrosh accepted basically all the survivors of the Dark Horde in his ranks, plus the Dragonmaw in Cataclysm, and both of them will defend Orgrimmar; the orcish army is pretty over-sized now and for this pretty powerful, and is for this increasing amount of military power that Vol'jin and Baine felt even more "hostage" of Garrosh's whims. This without considering all the Mag'har that came with Garrosh from the Outlands.

In other words, after the Siege the orcs will have indeed some casualities but their population and power will just return to its "old standards" pre-Cata.

Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.

I think a power shift will happen after SoO, with Forsaken expanding their territory further with no one to check them and the blood elves stepping up to play a bigger role in horde policies, and the west kalimdor horde (taurens, trolls and goblins) trying to rebuild Orgrimmar and keeping the orcs under a watchful eye, and the remaining orcs trying to cope with their casualties and making up for their ex-leader's mistake.

Oh, Garrosh wanting nothing to do with demonic power but willingly accepts old god power isn't a 180 of his character? It certainly doesn't fit his personality to be going around digging up powerful magical artifacts either, he's a warrior so he relies on brute strength not magic.

Here's the thing about Garrosh.

He publically says he dislikes something. All while privately working out how he can use the same thing for his own purposes.

Oh, Garrosh wanting nothing to do with demonic power but willingly accepts old god power isn't a 180 of his character? It certainly doesn't fit his personality to be going around digging up powerful magical artifacts either, he's a warrior so he relies on brute strength not magic.

demons and old gods are competently different it's like comparing a shaman and a warlock, both burn things to a crisp however shamans are seen as good and warlocks evil. It just happens to be that both are evil and believes he can master it :P

Garrosh not liking demonic magic is tied to his father, and the shame he felt over the orcs being controlled and used by the demons. His hate for demons and warlocks stems from that, not from a generic 'oh it's evil magic I hate it' sentiment.

As for old god stuff he doesn't have that same personal hate, he sees the sha energy as just another weapon to wield. Garrosh is a warrior but he has a LONG history of using super weapons. From the big bombs he doesn't have a problem with in Stonetalon (he got mad because of the target not the bomb itself), enslaving magnataur and proto drakes in Wolfheart, using mana bombs and dark shaman enslaved elementals and kracken, he's been doing this sort of thing for a long time.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

He publically says he dislikes something. All while privately working out how he can use the same thing for his own purposes.

An egomaniac can justify anything.

oddly, that sounds just like his fans and there rationality to his actions.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Florena

Garrosh not liking demonic magic is tied to his father, and the shame he felt over the orcs being controlled and used by the demons. His hate for demons and warlocks stems from that, not from a generic 'oh it's evil magic I hate it' sentiment.

As for old god stuff he doesn't have that same personal hate, he sees the sha energy as just another weapon to wield. Garrosh is a warrior but he has a LONG history of using super weapons. From the big bombs he doesn't have a problem with in Stonetalon (he got mad because of the target not the bomb itself), enslaving magnataur and proto drakes in Wolfheart, using mana bombs and dark shaman enslaved elementals and kracken, he's been doing this sort of thing for a long time.

which simply means he's a power hungry dictator, whos all for slavery, using anything as a weapon, even peoples lives, and thinking what the least expendable thing does he have to make use of, again, regarding peoples lives.

The orcs did not control the horde. Under Thrall, the horde was a confederation of races with the warchief as overall commander of the armies of those races. Garrosh turned it into a dictatorship which is why the other races are in open rebellion against him. Thrall never took the reins of the horde, he was its military head with the other races trusting in his judgement and council. Even Sylvannus has shown deference and respect to his leadership in that respect and Lor'themar likewise trusted Thrall's judgement and vision of the horde as a coalition for mutual support and defense against the territorial ambitions of the alliance. The horde will likely emerge stronger from this, as each side shows its commitment to the horde in their own way instead of simply dropping out and leaving. In the fullness of time there will be peace between the races of the alliance and the horde, but I feel not until both are driven to near extinction, most likely by the Legion.

Garrosh not liking demonic magic is tied to his father, and the shame he felt over the orcs being controlled and used by the demons. His hate for demons and warlocks stems from that, not from a generic 'oh it's evil magic I hate it' sentiment.

Blatant prove is that Garrosh keep slaughtering warlocks in the Cleft of Shadow during the Siege, and these guys did nothing evil or wrong, they use fel and demonic magic but in fact they just always tried to prove to Thrall that they were both reliable and useful, like when they sent the player, back in vanilla, to take care of the corrupted Burning Blade's members in the Desolace, or when one of them even sent the warlock player to do something "sweet" like reconcile two lost lovers (during the succubus's questline, if I remember well).

Hell, Garrosh even used them when he needed their power out of necessity (like during the subjugation of the Echo Isles) but now that he have his Old God toy he doesn't see any use in them anymore, and can just unload all his grudge, despise and disgust towards them by slaughtering them "because".

What a disgusting bigot, may he burn to hell.

Garrosh is a warrior but he has a LONG history of using super weapons.

And a warrior he remains with the power of Y'shaarj, after all he have a disecrated image of Gorehowl in hand. He will just be a warrior with the power of an Old God inside him.

Still, it is nowhere near as bad as how goblin survivors of Gallywix's prison ship being somehow numerous enough to not only populate a sizeable metropolis along with a district in ORG, but also deal with particularly heavy casualties and loss of life even in the early questing zones. Either Gallywix's ship had the holding capacity of a space colonization vessel, or population of Kezan has been shrunk to fit in as accessories in city boxes or we have a bad case of BS proportions and scale.

Well the Goblins did fit a town into a box. Buildings can be shrunk, why not Goblins.

What? If Anduin is the warchief for the horde, I quit. I stopped watching Lost cause it got too retarded and this would put WoW right up there.

Do people actually consider this? I know some alliance guys cry because he keeps running from them because they try to capture him and horde players don't give a crap about him anyway, after they failed in jade forest, but why on earth would there even be a remote chance for either anduin or wrathion? The other horde leaders would never allow wrathion (I doubt the alliance would either, especially after anduin saw him go nuts a couple of times) and even if the alliance appointed anduin some kind of keeper, the other horde factions would never go along with it, not even baine, because even he knows it's ridiculous.

oddly, that sounds just like his fans and there rationality to his actions.

- - - Updated - - -

which simply means he's a power hungry dictator, whos all for slavery, using anything as a weapon, even peoples lives, and thinking what the least expendable thing does he have to make use of, again, regarding peoples lives.

I don't disagree. Whlie he had potential to turn out differently in Cata, he instead went down the bad guy path and has been unrepentant about it.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

EDIT* Look up the Lich king to know what im saying there you have a guy we have completed face raped, His army and all his power but for some reason the scourge is STILL a threat and that we must always need a guy to take care of a few wondering zombies in the eastern plaguelands

I agree that the "there must always be a LK" is bullshit (see Forsaken). The Scourge in the Plaguelands are free of the LK's control and at least some of them should have regained their sentience, unless the Cult of the Damned are controlling them.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

What happened to Bolvar? We haven't seen him reign in the scourge at all. What's he doing on the Throne?
It wasn't an easy transition for him. The scourge and Cult of the Damned operating the in Plaguelands are autonomous. (Source)

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

I don't disagree. Whlie he had potential to turn out differently in Cata, he instead went down the bad guy path and has been unrepentant about it.

I really wish people would stop saying this, and trying to use it as there excuse for why they don't understand Garrosh's actions in mists.

All that happened in cata, was the writers making you think there was something else to Garrosh, when it was all a ruse. They convinced you he was a better orc then people regarded him as, but as all evidense as shown there after, his 'honorable actions' was nothing more then a ruse, where threw you off, so he could scheme something else.
His plan for the mana bomb didn't happen by chance, he saw what it did in stonetalon, and drew inspiration from it, all the while making you think he was disgusted at the act, when really he as inspired by it. Hell, he more then likely knew about the bomb itself, and after its use, killed his commander to make it seem like he had nothing to do with it, when really it was his plan all along.

Infact, I seem to remember one of the devs saying this, that it was all garrosh's plan to test the bomb out.

I really wish people would stop saying this, and trying to use it as there excuse for why they don't understand Garrosh's actions in mists.

All that happened in cata, was the writers making you think there was something else to Garrosh, when it was all a ruse. They convinced you he was a better orc then people regarded him as, but as all evidense as shown there after, his 'honorable actions' was nothing more then a ruse, where threw you off, so he could scheme something else.
His plan for the mana bomb didn't happen by chance, he what it did in stonetalon, and drew inspiration from it, all the while making you think he was disgusted at the act, when really he as inspired by it.

Blizzard could have gone the opposite route, like they did with Varian, and have Garrosh learn and grow as a character instead of slide into evil. If you don't think it was POSSIBLE for blizzard to do that you're letting your hate for Garrosh blind you. I'm not saying he's a good guy. I'm not saying there's any hope for redemption for him now. But back in Cata, there WAS that chance that he could have learned. I don't think he's OOC in Mists, all I'm saying is there's more than one path his character could have taken, and blizz chose the 'evil' path for him.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

I agree that the "there must always be a LK" is bullshit (see Forsaken). The Scourge in the Plaguelands are free of the LK's control and at least some of them should have regained their sentience, unless the Cult of the Damned are controlling them.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

What happened to Bolvar? We haven't seen him reign in the scourge at all. What's he doing on the Throne?
It wasn't an easy transition for him. The scourge and Cult of the Damned operating the in Plaguelands are autonomous. (Source)

Sounded like a bullshit to me too, but seemed to me by the beginning that Bolvar had zero influence in the Plaguelands, the Cult was everywhere and in a quest we even kill a crypt lord that aims to become the "new Lich King". I guess Bolvar is useful for just keep in check the countless legions of undead in Northrend, but I have some problems in understanding how they could across the sea for "cleanse the world" by the living.

Blizzard could have gone the opposite route, like they did with Varian, and have Garrosh learn and grow as a character instead of slide into evil. If you don't think it was POSSIBLE for blizzard to do that you're letting your hate for Garrosh blind you. I'm not saying he's a good guy. I'm not saying there's any hope for redemption for him now. But back in Cata, there WAS that chance that he could have learned. I don't think he's OOC in Mists, all I'm saying is there's more than one path his character could have taken, and blizz chose the 'evil' path for him.

oh yes, and Arthas could have learned from his killing of civilians in stratholme, and not carried on his insane pursuit of malganis, leading to his finding of frostmourne.

But you know what.. it happened. This thing with Garrosh, it happened, so please stop trying to cast it off as what could have happened, and learn to deal with the fact Garrosh was always set on the path to be the bad guy. The devs themselves even say this now.

oh yes, and Arthas could have learned from his killing of civilians in stratholme, and not carried on his insane pursuit of malganis, leading to his finding of frostmourne.

But you know what.. it happened. This thing with Garrosh, it happened, so please stop trying to cast it off as what could have happened, and learn to deal with the fact Garrosh was always set on the path to be the bad guy. The devs themselves even say this now.

....They just said that his development was a straight line. That doesn't mean Garrosh was always as bad as he is now.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)