Nah, Jamie's killing Cersei for sure. He's fought all his adult life against being branded a Kingslayer, but he'll have no choice but to do it again and kill the woman he loves in the process (becoming Queenslayer?), most likely to save (or avenge) Tyrion.

Holy shit, I feel like half the season's budget went to that finale. One of the most epic scenes in the entire series (maybe the most), and so smartly directed-- interesting that this is the episode directed by the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia guy! So much better than the over-edited mush of Euron's attack a few episodes back

Also, every HBO was playing this in Spanish for some reason, so I had to watch it on HBOGo-- anyone else run into that nonsense?

Where's everyone at? Another great episode-- we're still in a bit of fan service with the reappearance of one "long forgotten" character (especially Davos' quip), but things are really moving along now and next week looks like a Game of Thrones action movie with all these cheeky characters coming together for a deadly mission

I've been quite impressed with this season so far, I'm especially interested to see what Littlefinger is planning with Arya, and how he's likely to underestimate her (I also like how they keep burying some important details from the main characters because Samwell 'doesn't have the time' to listen to Gilly's discovered factoids). My one qualm is that I do wish they would take their time with certain elements, although it does make structural sense to have the whole thing speeding up to it's eventual conclusion (which does make things more typically thrilling to a mass audience, i suppose). Really excited for the last two episodes this season.

In addition to the North, Jon is the King of not quite thought out battle plans

Since someone removed the relevant and useful spoiler warning for this thread title, I'll put this specific comment related to episode 07/06 in spoilers

SpoilerShow

I knew we'd eventually get a White Walker dragon, because the conflict with the army of the dead would be over if all they had to do is just send the dragons up beyond the wall, but I didn't think it'd happen this season.

For the same reason I made it that way during Breaking Bad's run: people were using the thread so much it made more sense to allow spoilers to be unboxed with a special warning in the thread title. In fact, since you acted the role of America in Iraq here and changed things without considering the culture, these threads are now filled with un-spoiler texted spoilers. Mission Accomplished!

I’ll carve out a few minutes tomorrow to add (spoilers within) to every current TV show thread title, it’ll both be very informative about whether people will be discussing the show inside the thread, and it’ll look great

Thought this was the first season of Game of Thrones that didn't really earn any of its big moments, and played like a very long highlight reel from plotlines that, in the universe the show has inhabited to this point, would have taken seasons to develop. It ultimately deserves (and gets) a pass because of practical behind the scenes considerations around dragging things out for too much longer, but having characters essentially teleporting all over this huge map to suit the plot was very jarring. And the plot certainly functioned similarly - there was a moment in the finale where a character stated his intentions to go speak to another character, and seasons ago, that would've been the last we saw of that plot until the next episode, at least, because the show was building toward a huge moment. But instead, the very next scene depicts said character approaching the interaction, and bam - huge moment, with a sinking sense of too much all at once.

Again, I don't see a way around this because everyone just ran out of time with this, but it's a betrayal of the pace that made giant plot splashes land so powerfully in the past, which is largely what made the show so popular. These waning moments feel like a very dumbed down version of a show that deserves better, all fan service-y substance and no more style.

The biggest problem is how predictable the show has become. My friends and I laid out an outline of what we expected, and managed to nail just about every major plot point. The only big exception was John Snow not finding out about his heritage, though in our defense we based this prediction off the fact that the show seemed to go out of its way to separate him from Dany and leave him stranded in the north. Shame on us for thinking this was done for actual plot reasons instead of just adding some empty yanked-from-the-fire tension to an episode already overstuffed with it!

But I fully agree with you- now that D&D have moved well beyond the books, they are unfortunately happy with letting the show coast on its own inertia towards a conclusion. Too often the mere interaction between characters is enough of a dramatic payoff for the creators- In just the last episode, see the Clegane Brothers, Theon/Euron, Bronn/Tyrion, Podrick/Tyrion, Jamie/Brienne- and not much thought is given to what these characters say or how these interactions shape them. There's an illusion of impact on scenes that are ultimately nostalgic reminicenss. Indeed, after spending the first 5 seasons watching great arcs like Jamie find honor, Danaerys learning to lead, and Theon earning redemption, it feels like every single character has since had their growth stunted. I'd love for the show to pull off a few surprises like it used to do regularly, but I'm afraid it's going to end as a conventional fantasy series with a big budget.

Last edited by jindianajonz on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Dumbed-down" is an apt description, and I agree that show's retreat to shopworn fantasy tropes--something that's always been lurking at the edges of the narrative in the form of various magic powers and zombie-kryptonite--has been quite a let-down.

The easy solves to some of the characters' ongoing problems is also grating, and the grim foolishness of some of their plans is...not insulting, but very hard to really invest in. I've essentially spent seven years trying to like the show, but I just can't get there. Some of it is personal preference, but...less lately.

jindianajonz wrote:The biggest problem is how predictable the show has become. My friends and I laid out an outline of what we expected, and managed to nail just about every major plot point. The only big exception was John Snow not finding out about his heritage, though in our defense we based this prediction off the fact that the show seemed to go out of its way to separate him from Dany and leave him stranded in the north. Shame on us for thinking this was done for actual plot reasons instead of just adding some empty yanked-from-the-fire tension to an episode already overstuffed with it!

But I fully agree with you- now that D&D have moved well beyond the books, they are unfortunately happy with letting the show coast on its own inertia towards a conclusion. Too often the mere interaction between characters is enough of a dramatic payoff for the creators- In just the last episode, see the Clegane Brothers, Theon/Euron, Bronn/Tyrion, Podrick/Tyrion, Jamie/Brienne- and not much thought is given to what these characters say or how these interactions shape them. There's an illusion of impact on scenes that are ultimately nostalgic reminicenss. Indeed, after spending the first 5 seasons watching great arcs like Jamie find honor, Danaerys learning to lead, and Theon earning redemption, it feels like every single character has since had their growth stunted. I'd love for the show to pull off a few surprises like it used to do regularly, but I'm afraid it's going to end as a conventional fantasy series with a big budget.

Very well said. It is fascinating that a show that is largely about shocking viewers with an anarchic streak of surprises and an "anything can and will happen" philosophy from the very first episode onward is no longer even attempting to generate anything beyond appeasement. There's a very The Jetsons Meet The Flinstones quality to much of this past season that I can't shake.

It seems that in my interaction with friends and family about it (YMMV, just my observations, in other words), those who really have enjoyed this season are of the ilk that have always dove head first into memes and fan theories and shipping and all of the overload that tends to happen when a show does not occur in a vacuum, and instead is unavoidably influenced by the conversation around it. There's a great deal of vindication that what they wanted or expected (or both) to happen is happening. Those who were frustrated or outright disliked this season (some of whom have just dropped it wholesale, which is a little far for me) are those who see it as a nasty escapist piece of pulp at the end of the weekend that they don't take too seriously, punctuated by gut punch moments of shock. Unless next season totally surprises me, it seems to have dropped that cruelness altogether, because we can pretty easily guess what's around the corner, and the show is no longer concerned with punishing its most hardcore fans for that smug certainty. Which has led to either relief or frustration, depending on who you ask.

I understand these complaints, but I don't share them. There is a snowballing narrative effect in play now, but this hardly the first work of art (film or literature) to exert more energy on the wind up than the pitch. We're at a juncture in the series where things are wrapping up and just because certain elements are inevitable doesn't mean they should be looked down upon. The series has done a good job of lining everything up (and I think the "blame" on the show-creators in the wake of running out of book is misplaced-- the highlight of last season, Cersei's destruction of the Sept, wasn't even in Martin's outline) and I think it would be cheap just to kill characters arbitrarily to keep viewers on their toes-- I may have compared the series to Oz at some point, but overall (and especially post-Red Wedding) the series plays by a more traditional and narratively satisfying set of rules.

I think, using my same argument that a lot of signs are pointing in apparent directions, that we're going to see many members of the main cast die next season in narratively meaningful ways. Fundamentally, only Jon Snow seems safe-- the show has taken his narrative arc and he is the karmic cosmic repayment for the death of Ned Stark. I'll join y'all in bellyaching the show's premature demise if and when the series' creators decide to off him, as it would really wreck the overarching impact of the show and render it a bit rudderless. And I suspect Sam is meant to be Martin and is the one telling us all this, so he also seems safe. Everyone else seems fair game. Now, if this time next year everyone is still alive except Qyburn, then okay, the show pulled its punches. But I doubt it.

The only one I expect to live is Sam, any other of the main cast are in play to die, I think. And most are likely to die. Of the four fan favorites of dany arya, Jon and Tyrion I would expect at least two to die.

I agree that the series is trying to resolve things quickly, but fundamentally they ran out of political conflict. There is one remaining wrinkle with cersei still playing a smart long game, but with most of the major houses exterminated, there just didn't exist any more plot filler / plot padding like the tyrell, dorne, and faith militant storylines of the past few seasons that have stalled for time post red wedding.

In a way it is the deathly hallows and horcruxes problem, Rowling identified these two elements late in the game and then bulldozers through resolving them in the final book and a little bit of the sixth book. It would have been nice to see them given more storytime in line with the pacing of the first five books, but achieving narrative resolution and escalating the threat was more significant than maintaining the pace of a gentle and leisurely stroll through hogwarts, and taking time to explore the horcruxes and hallows over four or five books would have been a very poor decision.

I read these books in the fall of 2000 when I saw a storm of swords on the new release shelf at the library, was intrigued by the blurb and found the first book. Having lived with the series for seventeen years I'm relieved they're finally achieving some narrative resolution. Martin has not even introduced the night king in the books, he's only been obliquely referred to like three times. I'm happy the show is picking up the slack left by the defunct book series, and at this point I think the show is doing a better job of telling the story than Martin is.

I suspect you're right in your guess about fan favorites, and would say it's almost a dead cert that Daenerys dies. They've been showing a lot of her flaws this season, and she's a "favorite" who, if you look at her character, isn't really that great or necessary, especially now that we know Jon could control the dragons if necessary and is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Nothing against her, but when Tyrion was laying into her about securing her legacy, I thought the show was working overtime to foreshadow it

mfunk9786 wrote:Very well said. It is fascinating that a show that is largely about shocking viewers with an anarchic streak of surprises and an "anything can and will happen" philosophy from the very first episode onward is no longer even attempting to generate anything beyond appeasement.

For me, "shock" was never the defining the feature of the early episodes. There were surprises, to be sure, but in hindsight all of them were anticipated in one way or another. The only reason the audience didn't expect them was because they looked like typical fantasy tropes. Looking at the three most memorable deaths of the first few seasons, Ned was brought down because he didn't realize how much an honorable course weakened him, Robb went back on a bargain to follow his heart, and Joffrey was killed for being an all around terrible ruler. These were surprises not because they were unanticipated, but because pop culture conditioned us to accept these fairy tale tropes without questioning their practicality. In retrospect, these deaths were impactful because they were warranted.

Compare this to some of the deaths in recent seasons. Doran Martell, the Sand Snakes, Lady Olenna, everybody at the Great Sept: All of these characters fell simply because battles didn't go their way. They didn't really do anything to earn their fates, they just had the misfortunate of being in the wrong place with the wrong army at the wrong time. There's something deeply dissatisfying about watching a clever character like Olenna Tyrell making all the right moves in a carefully orchestrated game, only to be brought down by somebody as haughty and flawed as Cersei.

What D&D don't realize is that it's not the shocks that endeared the audience early on, but the realization that we should have seen it coming.

jindianajonz wrote:. Too often the mere interaction between characters is enough of a dramatic payoff for the creators- In just the last episode, see the Clegane Brothers, Theon/Euron, Bronn/Tyrion, Podrick/Tyrion, Jamie/Brienne- and not much thought is given to what these characters say or how these interactions shape them.

The "not much thought" critique always comes dashed out as a spur of the moment criticism that belies the facts of how much work writing a script involves.

Everyone of those interactions had an enormous amount of thought go into it by necessity, as the writers probably struggled for weeks with the best ways to condense complex interactions into at worst one line or at best a handful of lines. Tyrion and Cersei, the most important reunion to portray in this episode, got an entire lengthy scene where Cersei expertly outwitted and played Tyrion by fulfilling his expectations about her. (look at how easily she nearly had Jamie killed, and then look at how she "acted" about the "struggle" to kill Tyrion, the scenes are excellent counterpoints to each other (and also dramatically mirrored by Sansa's decisions this episode)). But they are the only reunion matchup to be so privileged with an entire scene. everything else has to be condensed into as potent reactions as possible.

Because if we had (presumably) your option of two or three episodes padding out "the council of Elrond" where Bronn and Tyrion can properly reunite, and Jamie and Brienne can torridly embrace, etc etc, the plot would be rightly criticized for being boring, padded etc etc. As the show got criticized for early in the season when people complained, "oh this is a TALKING episode, how boring that it is just a bunch of scenes of people relating to each other slowly."

So while Tyrion and Pod get a line, and Bronn gives a humerous hat tip to "pod's magic cock," that's about all the screentime that relationship can be allowed, in this case, the self-deprecating (by the writers) callback to the poorly received Pod storyline also neatly encapsulates quite a lot of the relationship of those three men. A lot of thought and hard work went into condensing that relationship down into just a line or two for this episode, it was very clearly the opposite of "not much thought." That each relationship received some sort of attention shows that they spent an inordinate amount of time on this sequence at the Dragon pit. it's the most characters together for one scene since Joffrey's wedding, and the most storylines together for one scene since the pilot. Pulling together that many threads in a compact way is difficult and complicated and certainly not something that can be achieved with "not much thought."

I'm sort of wondering if it will play better on rewatches without having to wait a year between each season, too much narrative time has been invested in the current characters that any surprising deviations would potentially make earlier setup feel like it wasted our time. There might be some hypothetical narrative where they included a few more seeming meaningful but ultimately expendable characters to get rid of this season, but it would be quite difficult to organize it all without elongating the story. But it will be interesting to compare with the books and see if George R.R. Martin's many years spent planning and writing manages to finesse these points any better.

I found the most disappointing moment to be the death of Little Finger, just because he's been such a major player from the beginning, and rather than having some grand scheme get foiled, its been becoming more and more apparent that he didn't really have any grand scheme that would interfere with the plot momentum, and either Arya's lie detection training or Bran's ability to check the re-runs would undo him whenever the screenwriters saw fit.

My biggest worry is that Cersei is going to go the same direction, and that she's been saved as kind of an ultimate human villain before the confrontation with the Whitewalkers. She's in a similar position where the writers are trying to build up a vague threat to the outcome (a new army and possibly the element of surprise) but its hard to see her doing anything significant to diminish the momentum of the rest of the characters and families uniting together beyond maybe killing some mildly important characters. I'd love to be wrong about this and see her character undergo some significant change in the last season or team up with someone unexpected.