2m Rule Good? Bad?

Tim_the_Enchanter wrote:I feel similarly. There's a course here that has several OB "ponds" on it that are basically just rock circles put in place to make the hole play harder. Actually, I think they were originally declared OB because plants had been planted and they wanted to protect them. Now either the plants have disappeared or they've grown up to be hardy enough for normal traffic. The "ponds" are still in play, and they don't really serve any purpose other than to make some of the holes play harder. My stance on OBs is the same as on mandos. They should only be applied where safety is a concern or you're trying to protect some area. Adding OBs just for the sake of making a hole harder just seems...chintzy.

#1 at Swope is a great example of this. Both a mando (which is good, it keeps people out of #2's fairway while forcing you down a tunnel) and OB (dumb, because it's just there to make the hole harder).

See, I disagree with this. You gotta do something to make the hole a challenge. Under this logic, might as well just go out in a large field and just put baskets everywhere.

What is the point if you can just lock and load, shoot and throw where ever you want? Get your birdie and throw on the next no challenge hole...

OB's and OB Traps are designed to make you plan a route, course manage, hole manage and learn how to skillfully throw the hole.

As for throwing out of water, it's a lot easier in Disc Golf then Ball golf, that's why you are forced to take the drop stroke. Have you ever tried to hit that ball out of a pond? It's a bitch. I'm also a ball golfer and I hit out of water once and I'll never do that again, I'll take the drop.

You gotta remember, throwing a disc is a lot different then hitting a golf ball.
The basic principles and rules of ball golf work with disc golf, but not all ball golf rules can be translated into disc golf. some of the penalties we face as disc golfers are logical because in like I mentioned it's a HUGE difference throwing a disc from water versus hitting a ball out of water.

Watching someone unwind from a mando is painful. Plus, mandos usually exist to keep golfers off of neighboring fairways and the like, so taking a drop with a penalty stroke is much better for safety and is more logical. Throwing back toward the tee to get around a mando looks retarded to me. Also, a drop prevents the pace from slowing too much.

I'm with Fritz. I wish more courses would apply o.b. areas and tape. too many courses are just set up with what they have (trees, water, etc. ) and then left as is.

I've often thought that there should be sand bunkers around the greens. But instead of being a penalty just make them play their shot from a specified drop zone for each bunker. That way you can run at the pin but if you get caught in a bunker you now have a 50' putt instead of a 25' putt.

But I stand by my hatred of the 2m rule. There is too much luck involved in whether or not your disc comes out. I mean I've even had a disc hit the first tree possible then land on edge and roll all the way up to the basket. The next guy got stuck in the same tree.

Fritz wrote:See, I disagree with this. You gotta do something to make the hole a challenge. Under this logic, might as well just go out in a large field and just put baskets everywhere.

What is the point if you can just lock and load, shoot and throw where ever you want? Get your birdie and throw on the next no challenge hole...

OB's and OB Traps are designed to make you plan a route, course manage, hole manage and learn how to skillfully throw the hole.

I thought that's what trees and elevation were for? If a course were nothing but a big field with baskets...well, maybe false ponds would have a reason for being there. Though, I doubt I'd enjoy golfing in a field, and I'm pretty sure I would like randomly stipulated OB areas even less. If a hole plays so easily that you need to add in imaginary elements, that just sounds like bad design to me.

I wish I had better pictures, but this is just taken off the Seattle parks site.

The pic is old, there are now nets strung up on both sides of the chute there (the nets are a whole other topic of discussion) and the teepad is to the left of where the photographer is standing so those little spindly trees are decidedly inconvenient. You can see the basket down towards the left, in front of the guy in gray. About 25-30 to the left of the basket is an OB "pond". Believe me when I say this is no easy hole, most people aren't complaining if they make it out to where the guys are standing in the fairway. To get a drive out to putting range takes a really good shot, and if your shot
happens to skip into the pond, you're screwed. I think it's BS to get penalized for what in every other regard is a great throw. Funny thing is that I've hardly ever seen anyone go in the OB there so it's not like its taking out the "easy route" or anything. Its more like a giant pile of dog poop you hope your disc doesn't land in.

Fritz wrote:See, I disagree with this. You gotta do something to make the hole a challenge. Under this logic, might as well just go out in a large field and just put baskets everywhere.

What is the point if you can just lock and load, shoot and throw where ever you want? Get your birdie and throw on the next no challenge hole...

OB's and OB Traps are designed to make you plan a route, course manage, hole manage and learn how to skillfully throw the hole.

I thought that's what trees and elevation were for? If a course were nothing but a big field with baskets...well, maybe false ponds would have a reason for being there. Though, I doubt I'd enjoy golfing in a field, and I'm pretty sure I would like randomly stipulated OB areas even less. If a hole plays so easily that you need to add in imaginary elements, that just sounds like bad design to me.

I wish I had better pictures, but this is just taken off the Seattle parks site.

The pic is old, there are now nets strung up on both sides of the chute there (the nets are a whole other topic of discussion) and the teepad is to the left of where the photographer is standing so those little spindly trees are decidedly inconvenient. You can see the basket down towards the left, in front of the guy in gray. About 25-30 to the left of the basket is an OB "pond". Believe me when I say this is no easy hole, most people aren't complaining if they make it out to where the guys are standing in the fairway. To get a drive out to putting range takes a really good shot, and if your shot happens to skip into the pond, you're screwed. I think it's BS to get penalized for what in every other regard is a great throw. Funny thing is that I've hardly ever seen anyone go in the OB there so it's not like its taking out the "easy route" or anything. Its more like a giant pile of dog poop you hope your disc doesn't land in.

So if there is a pond behind the basket...don't run for the ace shot, course/hole manage the shot go for a finesse birdie layup or play the hole for a par and let all the idiots running at it get penalized...

Where is the pond on that hole? or you talking in general?

Guess I'm in the minority, I love Very Challenging holes. I honestly think luck has nothing to do with it. Guess my idea of a course layout is pretty extreme.

I agree with wanting challenging layouts. But I dont want luck to get in there. And I feel that 2m rule is lucky/unlucky rule. On a slighty different note, I dont like contrived challenging layouts either. I want natural challenging layouts. This unfortunately means heavy course work. I think ob-lines and such should be kept to a minimum. Id rather see the course be challenging by incorporating trees, greenery and water to make a challenging course.

This is an example of a VERY challenging hole without 2m, ob and what have you.

It's just a rock ring about 15-20' in diameter that's about 30' to the left of the pin (you can't see it in the pic). The ace run at this shot is actually a sidearm, which also takes you away from the pond. If it were an actual pond, I'd find it totally acceptable. But making a false pond is just lame, IMO. (According to rumor, this is one that was made to protect plants, but the plants are long gone, just a big tree in the middle).

I'm all for challenging holes too, there's a course here called SeaTac which is probably the most difficult course I've ever played and one of my favorites. Its difficult though because of length, trees, and the shape of fairways. There are no mandos on the course and only a few areas that are OB, and those make sense (walking path, fence that borders the park). The one OB that I'd have any issue with is a small OB pond on 18 that used to be a goldfish pond (the course is build over an old neighborhood). Its just a little area in the middle of the fairway that you usually can't see when taking your second shot (big dogleg right). Since its an existing course feature though, and often filled with disgusting looking water, I consider it fair to call it OB.

The problem with keeping a course challenging by layout only is that there are very few parks around Dallas at least that have multiple ponds or creeks or even dense vegitation. And its too expensive to dig out a new pond. We have to get by with mostly open fields with skattered trees. A cheap alternative would be to make an ob area where it would have been nice to have something there in the first place. If I had the money to design a course from the ground up I would dig out ponds and and make other natural ob structures but sincerhat would cost a small fortune I'd be happy with an ob flowerbox next to the green.

Thing I love about Mandos, it's 100% Mental. For Ice Bowl, I set up a mando that was IMMPOSSIBLE to miss, yet so many people grip locked and hit the tree the mando was on or totally missed the mando. I laughed my ass off cause peopel see mando and FREAK out. I love mandos, but I guess it's just my style of play.

Tim_the_Enchanter wrote:It's just a rock ring about 15-20' in diameter that's about 30' to the left of the pin (you can't see it in the pic). The ace run at this shot is actually a sidearm, which also takes you away from the pond. If it were an actual pond, I'd find it totally acceptable. But making a false pond is just lame, IMO. (According to rumor, this is one that was made to protect plants, but the plants are long gone, just a big tree in the middle).

I'm all for challenging holes too, there's a course here called SeaTac which is probably the most difficult course I've ever played and one of my favorites. Its difficult though because of length, trees, and the shape of fairways. There are no mandos on the course and only a few areas that are OB, and those make sense (walking path, fence that borders the park). The one OB that I'd have any issue with is a small OB pond on 18 that used to be a goldfish pond (the course is build over an old neighborhood). Its just a little area in the middle of the fairway that you usually can't see when taking your second shot (big dogleg right). Since its an existing course feature though, and often filled with disgusting looking water, I consider it fair to call it OB.

Fake mandos and OB are a bit cheezy, but I'd rather have those and good courses than not have those and have courses that are too easy. I also like that they're optional for rec play and you don't actually loose a disc if you end up with an OB shot.

We are going to have to use creative methods to make our courses tougher, and artificial O.B. does that. I don't like it when there are plenty of other natural options that are available, but in a park like Swope you have to create those hazards or let the scores get lower and lower as the discs get longer and longer.

Back to the 2M rule...the rule is an old original disc golf rule from when all the courses wound through the woods. It made sense in that context. Once the sport evolved with longer, open holes, the 2M rule became an arbitrary penalty. If you already hit one of three trees in the fairway, that should be penalty enough. I find it funny that so many TD's can't let the rule go and enforce it anyway. I agree that it can be a good rule in certain situations, but I'd prefer the PDGA just outlaw it and keep consistency in the rules.

garublador wrote:Fake mandos and OB are a bit cheezy, but I'd rather have those and good courses than not have those and have courses that are too easy. I also like that they're optional for rec play and you don't actually loose a disc if you end up with an OB shot.

Why are they Cheesy? Isn't part of the game mental? If the Mando isn't really in play, then it shouldn't bother you.

Fritz wrote:Why are they Cheesy? Isn't part of the game mental? If the Mando isn't really in play, then it shouldn't bother you.

It has that, "We would like to have something interesting here, but tha'ts work so we just put down rope instead," vibe. I understand that it's not possible to have actual hazards sometimes and I agree that it's a good thing. Perhaps, "not as good as the real thing," might be a better way to say it than "cheezy." Although I do think it looks cheezy, but that's just a personal preference. I've only played Swope once, but I remember it being a great example of a course that benefits a lot from this type of OB.