Or would you rather be caught hitting screaming winners, smart angles, forcing shots near the sidelines, while still playing 4.0?.
Good tennis, or pure dink percentage tennis?
Your choice.

I don't think they give out style points in tennis. The first step to winning is getting the ball in the court. If you can't do that, you're just running around looking awesome, while you hand your opponents a free match.

Of course, you have to lose NOW in order to learn the shots that will allow you to WIN later.
PeteSampras's 1hbh is a prime example.
AndreAgassi was learning to stand in and hit hard, lose a bunch, until it worked for him.
Hitting soft might win NOW, but will surely inhibit any chance of progress later on.
If if you're over the hill, like I am, then pushing is the most boring style of play. I might as well go jogging. Where's the rush in pushing one more ball back than your opponent?

I really dont get what is a "pusher" as everyone has their own meaning.
but doesnt everyone start out "pushing?" when they start playing matches and learn tennis?

Doesn't the 'dink shot 'becomes a well executed drop shot that has so much underspin it goes back to the net?
Doen't the 'moonball 'becomes a lower trajectory penetrating topspin deep shot that keeps opponents well behind the baseline?

Doesnt everyone have to start somewhere?
Isnt it better to play high percentage tennis and develop better skills rather than play gung-ho hall hitting , with no regards for the lines/net that you can do in practice sessions and but in matches?

You might have nailed it on the head, Dlam.
Everyone STARTS OUT playing safe, don't miss tennis to win.
But hopefully, some evolution takes place as you get better. Like hit good shots, forcing shots, winners even.
But you can't have forcing shots and winners if you're not using them in match play.
And when you first start using them, you will lose your fair percentage of matches before you learn to incorporate the higher level of play into you match tennis.

I really dont get what is a "pusher" as everyone has their own meaning.
but doesnt everyone start out "pushing?" when they start playing matches and learn tennis?

No, some people start by taking full swings and heavily manipulating the racket face. That came natural to me actually. In the beginning, I never used continental for anything. I had to learn how to use it for volleys and to some extent, serves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlam

Doesn't the 'dink shot 'becomes a well executed drop shot that has so much underspin it goes back to the net?
Doen't the 'moonball 'becomes a lower trajectory penetrating topspin deep shot that keeps opponents well behind the baseline?

If they work hard enough to improve it.

More peoples "dink shots" will just become "more consistent dink shots" which is why a lot of people have forehand slices. It doesnt naturally evolve into topspin strokes off both sides, with droppers from the baseline.

Same thing with moonballs. More people will end up pushing that ball up into the air as some form of rally ball than trying to use it as a passing shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlam

Doesnt everyone have to start somewhere?
Isnt it better to play high percentage tennis and develop better skills rather than play gung-ho hall hitting , with no regards for the lines/net that you can do in practice sessions and but in matches?

Yes and no.

If you have poor strokes, then you cannot play high percentage tennis in any case. It doesnt matter what your strokes "look" like.

If you have good strokes, you can still play "low percentage" tennis by choosing poor shots.

"high percentage tennis" is using a good stroke for a good shot.

__________________
"In the 1980's two men dominated--sometimes each other, most of the time everyone else."

Where's the rush in slapping another shot into the backstop? I play to win. That's the rush.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlam

I really dont get what is a "pusher" as everyone has their own meaning.

My definition is someone who wins most of their points through an opponent's unforced errors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD

Of course, you have to lose NOW in order to learn the shots that will allow you to WIN later.

So is it working? Are you advancing rapidly with your ranking? I ask, because I see some of the same guys overhitting at 3.0 & 3.5 who have been overhitting at that level for years. Hitting the ball hard doesn't guarantee an improvement in your game. I think smart rec players will focus on their strengths and not everyone excels at hitting it hard. Court coverage and consistency are important skills - why not to use them if you have them?

Where's the rush in slapping another shot into the backstop? I play to win. That's the rush.

My definition is someone who wins most of their points through an opponent's unforced errors.

So is it working? Are you advancing rapidly with your ranking? I ask, because I see some of the same guys overhitting at 3.0 & 3.5 who have been overhitting at that level for years. Hitting the ball hard doesn't guarantee an improvement in your game. I think smart rec players will focus on their strengths and not everyone excels at hitting it hard. Court coverage and consistency are important skills - why not to use them if you have them?

Hmmm, it'd be interesting to see, but I would imagine by your definition I would be a pusher then. Just from recent match memory I've definitely won more points off UE's then I have hit winners.

Yeah, the advantage of pushing...you win now, stay there, and no good player ever asks you to play.
The advantage of hitting decently...you lose more than you win NOW, and lots of good player's are willing to hit and play with you.
Your choice. King of your little world or... a newbie in a whole lot better world.

I was playing the other day and serving normally, the pace of my serve usually hits close to the line and bounce and reach the back fence.
By the third set I was getting tired and double faulting.
So I took off a LOT of pace , by justing serving with arm motion and not letting my feet leave the ground or have any forward momentum.
Essentially I was pushing my serves and letting gravity fall the ball in the middle of the service court and barely bouncing it to the back line, no where close to my normal pace.
This seem to work really well.
My opponent usually feeds of the pace of my serve ,
This time he trouble and hit some returns into the net.
Now I thinking this might be a way to conserve energy and throw some unexpected change ups serves.
So I serve mostly weak slices, reverse slices, I even thought about underhanded serving
To mix it up, I served a few fast pace serves.
He couldnt hit a winner of the returns plus made a lot of unforced error into the net.

I never seen anyone do this.
Legit strategy?

I see people do it a lot, and I'm a pretty inexperienced 3.0 player. Of course it's legit. At least in my opinion. It's part of what makes competitive tennis interesting. Vary pace, vary spin, vary location. If you do it well enough then you win games. If not, then you don't.

I really dont get what is a "pusher" as everyone has their own meaning.
but doesnt everyone start out "pushing?" when they start playing matches and learn tennis?

that is part of the problem that we have with Lee here, that when he talks about a pusher he sees a timid little fellow who runs all over the court trying to retrieve balls and thenīpushesīthem back the middle with no pace or placement, fearful of mistakes
iīm exaggerating here, as you might guess.
whereas lots of people for example think of David Ferrer as the best pusher in the world at the moment.
your initial question was about pushing as a legitimate tactic in a match, particularly regarding the serve. the answer to the question is of course yes,
use it if it works.
tennis is a game where the aim is to win and that means also you need the ability to figure out which tactic to use against different opponents.

I will occasionally throw in an off speed serve to throw off an opponent, especially the inconsistent ball basher types. But I would not alter my technique or else they will see it coming. I also suggest a few extra hard second serves to really keep them guessing.

of course the thread has deviated, as do most threads, and itīs about developing players now as well. whatīs the best way to improve.
first, not everybody starts out playing safe as Lee suggests. people bring their character on court and their preconceptions on how the game should be played. lots of people who hit out with power and no control to begin with
i highly recommend going to the tennis tips section and check out the sticky about different playing styles.

what you do is you work on improving all parts of your game, be it technique, anticipation, footwork, strategy, shot selection. and on the way you get a feeling about what your preferred game is, what fits your personality.

Yeah, the advantage of pushing...you win now, stay there, and no good player ever asks you to play.
The advantage of hitting decently...you lose more than you win NOW, and lots of good player's are willing to hit and play with you.
Your choice. King of your little world or... a newbie in a whole lot better world.

I notice you ignored my question about whether your Agassi-like power strokes have actually been advancing your rating. That makes me think, "probably not". Anyhow, you sound like a social player. Very concerned that your buddies on the court won't think you wear Big Boy Pants if you aren't trying to rip an 80mph ground stroke. I just don't care about that stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuji

Hmmm, it'd be interesting to see, but I would imagine by your definition I would be a pusher then.

Shhhh. Don't out yourself like that. Everyone on the TT message boards is on a grand Tennis Improvement Journey that ends at the feet of Roger Federer. Being willing to hit a dink shot for the win is Not Bueno.

I really dont get what is a "pusher" as everyone has their own meaning.
but doesnt everyone start out "pushing?" when they start playing matches and learn tennis?

Doesn't the 'dink shot 'becomes a well executed drop shot that has so much underspin it goes back to the net?
Doen't the 'moonball 'becomes a lower trajectory penetrating topspin deep shot that keeps opponents well behind the baseline?

Doesnt everyone have to start somewhere?
Isnt it better to play high percentage tennis and develop better skills rather than play gung-ho hall hitting , with no regards for the lines/net that you can do in practice sessions and but in matches?