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Topic: How hot can a standard gas oven get? (Read 16064 times)

Damn, that hurts. I really didn't want to cut it as I wanted the option to do bigger pizza's, but I ignored my wants and went with what I thought was "better for the pie". I'll see about rejoining the scrap piece tonight, it hasn't been broken yet. You know... I even have the 2"sq piece that was cut of the scrap so who knows, maybe that will balance on the rack too somehow.

Thanks again for the advice. I'll measure my oven width when I get home today and then see about picking up the icing rack if the fit works. Regarding the tiles, I actually have some old tiles (might be quarry tiles) that were used in our entry way which I'd forgotten about until now. I'll have to read the label to see if I can glean any info off of them. I am real hesitant about leaching any chemicals into the air let alone the pizza.

Regarding the screen I only intend to use it as a cooling rack. I am in agreement that direct contact with the stone is best and the only reason I'd use a screen were if my 16" (maybe 18" in the future) pizza peeling skills turn out to be horrible. My current peel only fits 13-14" which I haven't any problem handling as of yet, but today I bought a bigger one so we'll see .

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Jon

scott123

Sounds good, Jon. Be prepared for a bit of a learning curve with the new peel. Larger pies weigh more- with more weight comes more inertial force, which, in turn, can make it more difficult to launch the pie. When you make that breathtakingly beautiful 18" pizza and your guests gasp in awe as it's served, all the trouble will be worthwhile

Well I ended up not buying the cooling rack as it was 1" too long. My oven measured out exactly 24" x 18" and I would have had to chop off 1" from the rack. This would have resulted in a "comb" like structure and each individual wire did not look like it could hold much weight. If I can't come up with something else I may give it a try, but will at least wait till I get some quarry tiles. I hear the tiles come in 12" and 6" squares so in that case that would be a perfect fit for my oven in an oven top (given 12" or 6" is their true dimension)

I'm also curious what the effects of moving the cordierite stone up to the top rack level would be. Would the top of the oven help radiate a more balanced heat or do you think the gap would be too big (will measure tonight, but I think it would be a 5-6" gap between stone and actual oven top)?

P.S. Below pics are of reunited stone and scraps I had previous cut off. I put them on the side due to my funky rack shape. My rack actually has a lip in the back to prevent pans from getting pushed to the back wall of the oven. In order to fit my stone in I have had to turned my rack upside down which means the outer perimeter thick wire of the rack is actually on top of the thinner cross wires.

scott123

Jon, the top of the oven isn't really close enough, and, even if it were, it really doesn't have the mass. Aluminum is very low mass, but it reflects. This is both non reflective and low mass. My gap is 6" and, without the broiler being on for 2 minute of my 4 minute bake, I don't get proper browning on the top.

I guess, if you haven't come up with a new shelf workaround and you really have the urge to make pizza, you can give it a try. I would dial back the dough quantity a bit and reduce the thickness factor if you go this route. As long as the crust is not too thick, you won't get a ton of browning, but you should get decent oven spring and a good tasting pie. Make sure, like the oven in an oven workaround we discussed before, that the bottom burner is on for the duration of the bake. In other words, preheat to 625, launch pizza and then crank the bottom burner to high. Also, try not to open the oven door too much, as the heat that collects is pretty much all you've got.

The stone looks good with the scrap pieces. You might want to stabilize the small piece with a piece of foil folded a few times so it has a little rigidity.

I brainstormed the DIY ceiling thing a bit and came up with two more ideas:

1. Aluminum flashing. It can't handle any weight, but if you unroll it and clip it with tinsnips, it should be able to support itself from shelf lip to shelf lip.

2. Rebar. It's really along the same lines as the flat steel rod, thing, just round and a bit cheaper. 4 pieces should allow you to suspend 2 12" tiles and 2 6" tiles.

Scott those are some good ideas. I like the rebar concept and will see if I can come by some.

Last night I raised my rack/stone to the top level and measured the gap from stone surface to oven top, and it was only 3.75" I bit smaller than I had guess which I would presume would work in my favor. The work space appeared manageable, but still it's a long ways from the heat source. Pics below.

scott123

3.75", hmmmm... better, but, like I said, I don't have a whole lot of faith in a top of oven broilerless setup. It's still worth a try, though. At a minimum, it will be good training for tight vertical space launches. When/if you go with the faux ceiling at the bottom of the oven, the vertical space will most likely be equally as cramped.

Home Depot has relatively cheap rebar. I was looking at thick rebar for another project as a method of getting lots of thermal mass, so that got a bit pricey, but, for your tile supporting needs, it should be very inexpensive.

Last night I baked the last of the 4 dough balls I had made. This dough was at the 7 day mark and while it smelt great and tasted great after baking it was a little past it's peak and was a big massive bubble when i opened it's container. I wish I had a side shot, but the first picture below was the only one I took of the 11oz dough entirely filling a 5 cup container.

In my attempt to avoid popping as many bubbles as possible I was not able to get the dough into a uniform shape and therefore there were a few really thin spots, I mean window paneing thin spots on the bottom. The rim had some decent oven spring in some places and less in others, but I'd probably have to blame that on the dough and not the oven.

The set up was what I had last posted above, but after preheating the oven for a little over an hour the max I was able to get my stone temperature in the top rack was around 620F. The temperature of the oven ceiling was closer to 580F. I baked the pizza (simple cheese only, no sauce/toppings pizza) for 3 minutes, and after the bake the stone temp read 590F. I stopped after 3 minutes as the bottom looked done, and I didn't want to blacken the bottom trying to get the top brown. I opened the oven door twice, once at 2.5min and once at 2.75min and when I checked the bottom at 3min I decided to pull the pie not only since the bottom was done, but also as I figured I had pretty much deflated the oven air temps. Knowing at this rack level that I can go 3min (maybe 3.5min) without killing the bottom of the pizza I wonder what the top would look like if I left it in for 3.5min without opening the door... I guess I need to make more dough

I'm also on the hunt for rebar or angle irons as I think the oven in the oven at the lowest rack setting is the idea way to go.

BTW, my wife and 2 year old (turned 2 today ) absolutely loved the pizza. This bodes well for future experiments.

I hate to tell you, but you cut your stone for no good reason at all You run into the 'make sure there's room on every side for air flow' advice quite a bit in different food forums. Unfortunately, it's totally bunk. As long as there's room on two of four sides (by the left and right walls) there's plenty of air flow. I always tell people to buy a square stone with room on the sides, but is almost touching the back wall and front door. If you haven't already broken your extra piece in half, wedge it between the stone and the back wall. If you put it by the back wall it won't go anywhere. And as long as it's centered, the missing 2 inches should make no difference because of the roundness of the pizza.

That icing rack for $7 looks perfect. Just hack off the extra length (through the two outer supports) and you should be good to go. Since quarry tiles are lighter (and generally darker), I'd go with those. If it were me, I might even consider using regular black glazed bathroom tiles, since they won't be in contact with the food. Maybe. I might talk to the guy at home depot first about lead in the glaze.

P.S. I'm not a big fan of screens because they insulate the crust and extend the baking time, but if you're dead set on using one, increase the pre-heat of the stone another 50 or so degrees.

Wow... My compliments for the dedication.. I am just surprised at the results you are already getting on the pizza stone... I would not get too bummed about the char on the bottom of the pizza that. Your pizzas look great. The infrared thermometer is a great tool, you can get them for around $40... A true Neapolitan Pizza is cooked at 800 degrees for a total of 90 seconds. We use an Acunto Wood Fired Pizza Oven. I enjoyed your post and had to give my two cents and compliments.

scott123

Maestro, I believe you quoted me in error and meant to quote PapaJon, but, just in case your compliment was directed towards me, thanks for enjoying my post

Jon, congratulations on the birthday of your 2 year old.

You might buy yourself a little more top browning with the door closed, but, overall, I still think the stone at the top is just not going to cut it.

That being said, if, between now and when you track down shelving materials, you want to give it another shot, I would. What's going to really make the difference is properly fermented dough. No offense, but that dough was more than a little past it's peak. I would guesstimate about 3 days past.

There's members on this forum that have made some pretty amazing 7+ day fermented doughs, but, much like sourdough, I think it's very advanced pizzamaking and should probably be avoided until you completely master the basics. I would, for now, play it pretty safe and use the dough in 2 days- using just enough yeast for the dough to double in that time.

It's a little like Goldilocks- this pizza's too charred, this pizza's not brown enough- just one faux ceiling and I think you'll hit that magic middle ground.

Wow... My compliments for the dedication.. I am just surprised at the results you are already getting on the pizza stone... I would not get too bummed about the char on the bottom of the pizza that. Your pizzas look great. The infrared thermometer is a great tool, you can get them for around $40... A true Neapolitan Pizza is cooked at 800 degrees for a total of 90 seconds. We use an Acunto Wood Fired Pizza Oven. I enjoyed your post and had to give my two cents and compliments.

Thanks for the kind words. It has been fun improving my pizzaís. I have overcome the bummed out part, and I chalk up most of my ďbummedĒ feelings to having too many things go right from the start and feeling Iíd come > < close to winning. Iím actually kind of glad I didnít get a perfect pizza right off the bat since if everything had gone right, where would the fun be in that? Iím actually excited by that black charred bottom as it shows the potential my oven has. With the great guidance this forum and its members have been, Iím confident Iíll eventually be making tremendous pizzaís.

You might buy yourself a little more top browning with the door closed, but, overall, I still think the stone at the top is just not going to cut it.

Thanks Scott, I still canít believe how quickly these two loooong years have gone by.

Regarding the stone position, I think I have to agree. I baked one pizza last night and left it in without opening the door for 3.5 minutes, I then peeked giving a quick poke with the peel in case it needed to come out, rotated it and shut the door for another suspenseful 45 seconds before pulling it out.

What I learned is that the bottom can take the heat and maybe then some, possibly even up to 5 minutes or more. The charring on the bottom looks on the light side of perfect. The oven spring and crumb was great, but the coloring of the rim was still not quite there. Given that the bottom looks like it can still handle some more abuse Iím still curious what a finished pie would like like if the door was left shut for 4.5-5 min, but I think Iíve reached the upper limit for my toppings. This is the first time Iíve experienced what Iíll call ďpepperoni tectonic shiftĒ, or the movement of toppings in the oven during the bake. I swear the pepperonis I placed near the edges of the pizza migrated towards the center anywhere from a half to a whole inch. While this might be indicative of other adjustments that need to be adjusted such as the amount of sauce, the amount of cheese (maybe even the variety, position, etc), or dough thickness uniformity (note thin spots in 2nd pic below), Iím guessing though that a longer bake would not exactly work in my favor to reduce this.

What's going to really make the difference is properly fermented dough. No offense, but that dough was more than a little past it's peak. I would guesstimate about 3 days past.

There's members on this forum that have made some pretty amazing 7+ day fermented doughs, but, much like sourdough, I think it's very advanced pizzamaking and should probably be avoided until you completely master the basics. I would, for now, play it pretty safe and use the dough in 2 days- using just enough yeast for the dough to double in that time.

It's a little like Goldilocks- this pizza's too charred, this pizza's not brown enough- just one faux ceiling and I think you'll hit that magic middle ground.

Hahaha, yeah that ball was a tad past its prime. If I understand what you are saying correctly, you are saying that all other factors being the same, dough at different stages in its fermentation will brown/char differently? Iím thinking(writing) out loud here, but I suppose I could understand if the yeast fermented out too many of the natural occurring sugars, and since sugars improve browning, than the longer the ferment then less the browning? Iím not sure if itís as strait forward as that since the sugars the yeast would be feeding off of are not exactly simple sugars, but does that sound right?FYI this is the dough formula I have been using. It is basically pftaylorís Pizza Raquel but without a natural preferment/starter. I have supplemented the natural starter with his recommended amount of additional IDY, but what Iím beginning to suspect is that the amount of IDY is actually a little too high, especially for 3+ day fermentation.

scott123

Jon, no amount of recipe tweaking will ever tell you the appropriate amount of yeast to use. It may put you in the ballpark, but only trial and error will reveal how much you need to use for a given amount of time with a particular flour, water temp, room temp, fridge temp etc. etc.

It's a little hard to tell from the photo, but that looks like about the right level of fermentation on the dough. While that's not a horrible proofing container, I think you could do better with a container that's wider and with a clear bottom. The side tells you part of the story, but the bottom is really where the action is at, imo. They're a bit pricey, but I find the 7 cup glass pyrex containers to be ideal for the pizzamaker learning to recognize proper fermentation.

Overall, it's, as far as I can see, another step in the right direction. Every day, and in every way...

I think you pretty much know where you need to go from here. The one piece of the puzzle that we haven't talked about is flour. I noticed that you were talking about a source for KASL and that you're also in SoCal. Like most topics here, there's differing opinions on KASL. I'm, as everyone is aware, very anti-KA as a whole, but I'm super anti-KASL. As Scott R has pointed out before, it's good for bagels, but it isn't ideal for pizza. Since you live in the anti-bromate state, you don't have a lot of options, but I'd like to see you incorporate some real pizzeria flour into your advancing model. How often do you get to Nevada?

The one piece of the puzzle that we haven't talked about is flour. I noticed that you were talking about a source for KASL and that you're also in SoCal. Like most topics here, there's differing opinions on KASL. I'm, as everyone is aware, very anti-KA as a whole, but I'm super anti-KASL. As Scott R has pointed out before, it's good for bagels, but it isn't ideal for pizza. Since you live in the anti-bromate state, you don't have a lot of options, but I'd like to see you incorporate some real pizzeria flour into your advancing model. How often do you get to Nevada?

Note's taken regarding the proofing container. This was also an area I felt could use some improvement and although I have not been actively looking for something else, whenever I do see containers in a store I have been seeing if there is something a little wider. I hadnít really given the bottom much thought though, and will keep that in consideration as well.

Regarding the flour, I did not realize you were against KA (or KASL). The doughs Iíve posted about so far have all been KA Bread Flour, Iíve been looking for quality HG flour and am more hesitant to pick up a big bag until I know the quality. Instead of reposting your reasons if you donít mind linking to any previous discussions you had as to why you give a thumbs down to KA that would be great.

Regarding California and bromated, I do not believe California restricts bromated flour, they just require it to be listed on the package if it is bromated. I could be wrong but at least thatís what I think the legal scope is. That said, Iím not really enthusiastic about potential carcinogens either and would assume non-bromated would be the potentially healthier way to go. You appear to have a different opinion on this as well though.

My other option would be La Romanella High Gluten from Smart & Final however itís specs are less documented.

Nevada? Well we had thought about going to Vegas for presidents day weekend, but hotels were a little more than I wanted to pay and the practicality of going with a 2 year old without grandparents or someone else to take turns looking after really didnít justify the trip.

P.S. Picked up quarry tile today, still need to figure out a support structure. Iím thinking I could get away with 4 feet (2 x 2Ē) of rebar or angle iron if I used the current rack for the quarry tiles and then the new supports for the cordierite stone. Will keep you posted.

Logged

Jon

scott123

California has an ipso facto restriction on bromate. By requiring restaurants/food manufacturers to put a very scary sounding label on bromated goods- goods that no one would buy if they read the label, they've curtailed bromate use to such an extent that it's pretty much impossible to buy. In every other state, you can't walk into a flour distributor and buy unbromated pizza flour, while in California, it's the opposite- finding bromated flour is close to impossible. So, no, it's technically not illegal in California, but, with this fear mongering labeling regulation, it might as well be.

And yes, I do have a different opinion on it

Lethality

As of today, there's never been a single study showing a link between bromate and cancer in humans. Not a one. The baking industry has been working with bromate for decades and there's never been any evidence of high exposure to bromate ever causing elevated rates of cancer.

Dose

They can feed an obscene amount of bromate to rats and they will get cancer, so, for the sake of argument, let's say it is carcinogenic. Bromate is added to flour in quantities of less than 20 parts per million (ppm) and ends up in baked goods in quantities of less than 20 parts per billion (ppb). Let me reiterate- parts per *putting my pinky to my lip* billion Both the FDA and California allow 10 ppb in drinking water, and, because of disinfection processes, drinking water usually contains that limit. Bottled water, because of lack of regulation, can contain more. Simply put, the water you drink (bottled or not) contains about the same amount of bromate as pizza baked with bromated flour.

And that's water. Many other foods contain carcinogens, but the pizza-like quantities they contain make them absolutely harmless. Black pepper, cinnamon, nutmeg- all contain carcinogenic compounds. And yet we use them without a second thought.

Going outside on a sunny day without sunscreen will increase your chances for cancer far more than eating a slice of bromated flour pizza. Eating grilled meat- many many times more dangerous. Bacon and pepperoni- forget about it.

Sure, I have no doubt that if you sat down and started eating pure potassium bromate, there would be dire ramifications. But then, if you sat down and started eating salt, you'd be equally as doomed. Within the context of bread and pizzamaking, though, with the parts per billion that end up in the final product, it's absolutely harmless.

scott123

I use and recommend *drum roll* bromated flour Based upon results that I'm seeing here, I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to the Primo Gusto brand (not available in your area), but I have faith in just about every other bromated high gluten flour available for purchase.

Bromated All Trumps has the market share. I used to be a pretty vocal AT fanboy, and, although I still believe it's a great flour, recently, I've been finding myself gravitating towards slightly weaker options. I like chewy puffy pizza, but it seems like the kneading window that I get for All Trumps to avoid excessive chewiness is a little tighter than I'd like. Just a few extra seconds of kneading and it's a little chewier than I like. Bromated 14% protein flours are great (AT, Kyrol, Bouncer, etc.), but I'm resonating a little more with bromated 13% (Full Strength, Spring King etc.) these days.

I just took a look at Goldberg and Solovy, and, out of 6 bread flours they carry, all 6 are unbromated. For a while, I was looking for unbromated Bouncer in my area (NY metro), and, with numerous calls to a boatload of distributors, I came up empty handed. Flour distribution definitely doesn't favor the unique. I've heard of places on the east coast special ordering KASL for members of the forum, so maybe one of your local distributors might be able to special order some bromated flour for you, but I think that path will be a bit of a crap shoot.

Legendary NY pizzeria Joe's (my avatar), has an LA location. I'd be really curious to see if they're actually using unbromated flour. If they aren't, then, maybe they'll sell you a bag.

I generally try to dissuade people from buying flour online and paying shipping charges, but, for Californians looking for real pizzeria flour who don't travel much to neighboring states, I think that might end up being their only option. Pennmac is pretty well known around these parts- they carry bleached bromated All Trumps.

Most of my knowledge regarding bromated flour availability in CA has been hearsay. For a motivated individual like yourself, maybe it might not be so hard to track down. Make some calls. You never know. If you hit a dead end, try Pennmac.

I've made some calls to the local distributors in my area that I could find, Goldberg and Solovy, Dawn Foods, etc without much luck (I include the $100 min purchase requirement of G&S to be a deal killer). Iíve even contacted the special order departments of some local grocery stores, Sprouts, Henryís, Whole Foods, and Ralphís and have some pending responses although I donít have high hopes. Iím ready to switch tactics and start hitting up some restaurants and bakeries to see if they can get me a bag through one of their suppliers. Iím doubtful that anywhere around me actually uses real quality pizzeria flour but will find out.

The concept of my ideal crust is expanding to include separate categories or types. But what got me into making my own pizzas a couple years ago was the lack of a good cracker crust pizza. The funny thing is I stumbled onto the DKM recipe on the main page of this site through a direct link from Google more than two years ago. I tried to make the recipe, but due to my lack of understanding and a lack of mixer to overcome my lack of understanding the dough ball I got after a miserable attempt to hand mix a 36% dough confused the heck out of me and although I bet I could have made it work now, I gave up and chucked it without even baking it. At that time I did not discover the forum side of this site. While I wrote off that recipe as silliness, I did incorporate a roll out, flour, fold, laminate, and repeat process to a different recipe I had, and actually came up with a fairly nice crust (most of the time at least). I would basically keep folding flouring and rolling until I felt that I could not roll it out to the size I wanted if I repeated the steps again. Iím not really sure what the hydration level I ended up with was, but I felt the concept was to incorporate as much flour into the dough while rolling it out was what was working for me. Anyways those were the dark ages, and while my pizzaís were good by peer review standards the 10-15 minutes of slaving away to roll out one skin was really killing some of the fun of hosting or informally catering pizza parties for my friends. On my quest to improve my pizza further I began finding ways to make the process easier and easier and one day found these forums and the rest is history. The funny thing is, I had actually been reading and browsing the forums here for almost a month before I realized that this was the place I found that awful pizza dough recipe 2 years prior. Armed with new found knowledge and a Danish dough whisk I actually revisited the DKM recipe last week and very successfully made some killer cracker crust pizza. I did not post in this thread though since I baked them at my friends house (see pic below).

Thatís a long winded way to say I like cracker crust, but in reality I also really like the NY style and the chewy rim. Perhaps my ideal pie is somewhere in between. While my pizzas now are definitely good eating, the reason Iím trying to perfect the oven is so I can get that perfect char which will hopefully lighten up the crust some and give it nice crisp initial tooth followed my some nice chew. Not quite, but almost like a fresh French loaf.

Scott, would it be safe to summarize your ideal flour to be of a protein level somewhere between 12.3 - 13.3, made from hard spring wheat, and that the jury is currently still out on the bromate or not to bromate issue? Per your above post I understand that your opinion is that bromate in flour used for NY style or thin crust pizza's represents only an infinitesimal risk if any and what I'm referring to is only in regards to it's affect on pizza baking properties not health properties (i.e. your recent experience with Spring King non-bromated flour).

I'll keep looking for local options in my area but my resent inquiries have not shown much promise. I will be in your neck of the woods though near the end of this month which might make picking something up over there an option. Doing a google searches on Spring King found one of your post on a different forum that included your home town in the avatar. I actually have a customer there, but while I don't plan to visit them this trip since visiting large gov contractors is a little more complicated, I will be making stops in Boston MA, Cranbury NJ, and New Brunswick NJ flying in and and out of Logan and Newark.

I have a small pizza stand at our local farmers market (only one day a week). At first when I started making pizza I used Pillsbury Balancer (bromated), All Trumps (bromated), Kyrol (bromated), but finally made the switch to KASL. I donít have any problems with using KASL in my home setting or market setting and like the pizzas KASL produces. I really like using KASL and so does my friend Steve (Ev) I also liked All Trumps flour. I started with a basic Lehmann dough, but now have switched to a preferment Lehmann dough at market.

Hi Norma, I've read a good number of your posts on these forums and they are filled with good advise and questions, and so I appreciate your comments here in this thread. Thanks!

Right now, I think any good HG flour would be an improvement and I'd buy almost anything I could get my hands on. The catch is if I'm going to go with a 25# or 50# bag I'm more concerned with getting it right (or close to right) the first time. This is why I still not picked up the La Romanelle from Smart and Final pictured below.

BTW, I scavenged some steel rebar and steel stakes from a construction yard scrap pile. I'm hoping I'll be able to cut it when I get home. If I can get the oven set up changed, I may make a couple pies tonight

scott123

Jon, the jury is most definitely in regarding bromate. Bromated flour is superior. The same oven spring can be achieved with unbromated flour, but it's far more difficult. With bromate, you get a nice big target to shoot for. Without bromate, that target shrinks considerably. Bromated flour is far more forgiving.

Personally, I'm leaning toward 12.6% protein. I wouldn't go any lower than that. But, this is pretty subjective. Rather than pointing you towards exactly what I use, I'd rather steer you in the direction of what the industry uses. Outside of CA, for NY style, it's almost all bromate. Anything bromated from 12.6%-14% should serve you well. I'd hate to see you track down bromated All Trumps and then pass on it because I'm currently leaning a little bit towards 12.6% Spring King (which is bromated, btw).

I have one single positive experience with unbromated flour. My local supermarket uses unbromated bouncer and they sold me a pound. Compared to KABF, it was far superior, and, although the results were not quite as good as All Trumps, it was encouraging and I wanted to test it further. Unfortunately, I couldn't find it in my area and my supermarket charges me $1/lb. so that's out of the question. It's was just one single batch of dough, though, so I can't really stand behind it 100%. That being said, it looks a little like you've exhausted your local resources for bromated flours- if you feel like you absolutely have to buy unbromated flour- that's what I'd go with- Bouncer.

While I'm not much of a cracker crust kind of guy, that's looks like a pretty formidable pie. If your ideal crust is a cracker/NY hybrid, then my advice to you is the same that I give to aspiring Neo-NY enthusiasts- conquer NY style first (which you're close to doing) and then hybridize it.

That's pretty crazy that you have a client in Morristown. Small world Can you fly with a 50 lb. bag of flour?

As far as the Romanella flour goes... I'm not really feeling it. I'm not a big fan of flours that don't publish protein specs. I guess, as far as unbromated flours go, it has to be better than KABF (anything is better than KABF), but, if you have access to Bouncer, I'd go for that.