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Israel: refined not redefined

(This is a re-edited combining of two articles previously posted to my blogspot site.)

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Several months ago I read the following question:

“Lets say hypothetically Israel the nation was wiped of the map. What would that mean to everyone?”

This is my answer to that question:

It should mean nothing to those who look to the truth of God’s word instead of to the world’s political map.

Israel as nation WAS wiped off the map for almost 2000 years – and was restored in 1948.

Their long absence from the map is one of the reasons for the creation of replacement theology. With Israel gone, the church needed to give meaning to the many scriptural promises made to Israel, so they assumed that the church had replaced Israel in God’s plans.

They overlooked the clearest meaning that Israel’s existence did not depend on man’s political “realities”, but on God’s promise. And HIS promises are kept and fulfilled according to HIS timing.

Even if the present day political nation of Israel is wiped off the map again, it would merely mean that Israel will be restored to the land again at some future point in accordance with the prophetic promises given by God.

We should not confuse today’s political nation of Israel with the Israel of God. God’s Israel takes into account people descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob no matter where they live. Despite the creation of the nation state, the majority of Israel remains in exile. One day that exile will end and God’s Israel will be totally returned to the land He promised them and they AS A COMPLETE NATION will recognise their Messiah, Jesus and will enter the new covenant through faith in Him.

Replacement theology (mentioned in the answer I gave above) has become a very popular viewpoint in the church today

Two of the proof texts favoured by the promoters of replacement theology are:

Rom 2: 28-29 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit

And

Rom 9: 6-8 For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

But to use those texts as support for their theology, the replacement promoters need to totally ignore the clear context of those texts.

Regarding Romans 2:28.

Go back several verses and you will read in verse 17:

“ Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God…”

It is specifically addressed to Jews who were trusting in their blood heritage and their relationship to the law. Paul was saying their heritage was not enough. It was not addressing gentiles and saying they have been made Jews through “circumcision of the heart”. It was addressing Jews, saying that MORE than heredity and law observance were needed to be part of God’s people. An inward change worked by the Spirit is necessary.

Regarding Romans 9.

When Paul writes “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” He is referring to a faithful remnant of the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

The statement is excluding SOME of those descended from Israel – it is NOT a statement intended to include others who are not descended from Israel.

It is not a statement that redefines what Israel means. It is a statement that refines what Israel means.

It does not shift the identity of Israel from one group to another – it narrows down the identity of Israel from a wider inclusive ethnic group to a smaller specific section of that wider group.

It pinpoints the faithful remnant AMONG the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is not transferring attention outside of those descendants.

It’s like saying that not all born into a Christian family are Christian – only those who have their own faith in Jesus.

35 thoughts on “Israel: refined not redefined”

I can’t help but think what your saying sounds a little wacky. Israel is not suppost to be wiped out, the Jewish people are still Yahwah’s people, and Yeshua will stand on the mount of olives when he returns? In this case I don’t think you can seperate Politics and religon.

I was not saying that Israel WILL be forced from the land again – I was answering someone who thought my faith should be shaken IF the present nation of Israel collapsed and the people scattered again.

Israel remained Israel when they were not in the land.
Israel is the people not the land nor a political identity, so they would not be “wiped out” even IF they were forced from the land again.

God promised the land to Israel. They were outside of the land for almost 2000 years and did not cease to exist as Israel because of their absence from the land. God’s promise didn’t become nullified because they were absent from the land. His promise to return them to the land PERMANENTLY remains true.

My confidence in that promise will not be shaken even if they leave the land again – it would just mean that His promise of permanent residence will be fulfilled at a future date.

In fact it is clear that the promise has NOT yet been completely fulfilled. The people of Israel as a whole have not yet returned to the land but are still spread among the nations. And mostly they have not come to faith in their Messiah. Both of those are also features of the complete fulfillment of God’s promise to Israel related to their permanent possession of the land.

And there lies the foolishness of basing faith on political circumstances rather than God’s revelation.
God promised Israel would return to the land and never again be uprooted, but He didn’t promise it would happen in 1948.

Israel could not have returned to the land solely on their own efforts by their own choice. If that was the case they would have done so LONG before 1948.

They returned to the land by GOD’s choosing at a time of His choosing. But it is not the final and complete return prophesied in scripture. THAT return is of ALL Israel not only a part of Israel. THAT return will be accompanied by their acceptance of their Messiah and it is their recognition of HIM that makes their permanence in the land secure.

Israel HAS to be in the land in some form PRIOR to that complete and final return. They have to be in the land at the revealing of the man of lawlessness. They will flee from him and two thirds of those in the land will die.

I agree with you about Dispensationalism – it is a dangerous false theology setting people up for disillusionment (when the “rapture” doesn’t occur when they think it should). It also distorts the relationships God has with the church and with Israel. As well as creating different destinies for the church and believing Israel. (The church in “heaven” and Israel on earth”).

I think Daniel describes the Zionist man-made retaking of Israel the best….

Daniel 11:14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall.

Zionists are violent

Zionists exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision

And lastly, the shall fail…

Remember, Dispensationilism not only produced the pre-trib “rapture” but also seperated Israel and the church and taught that Christians shouldn’t preach the gospel to Jews because they will be saved anyway…..

Paul dispels ANY notion of the seperation of Jews and Gentiles in the following verse.

Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

I agree that Israel has to be in the land but this doesn’t mean that it was right in Gods eyes.

We see many times in the Old Testament where Israel disobeyed God and God used their disobedience for His glory in the end.

There is a degree of irony in your statement “Zionists are violent” considering the very long history of violence against Israel and the Jews and the still current aim of many to drive them (Israel) into the sea.

Considering these things it seems to me that Israel has mostly been very restrained in its response to the consistent violence against its people – in comparison to the reponse of other nations when faced by lesser violence against them. Also consider the treatment of Arab citizens living in Israel compared to the treatment Jews would receive in Arab countries – or even the treatment Palestinian Christians receive in Palestinian territory.

Israel’s violent acts are also considerably restrained in comparison to those historical examples described in the Old Testament and those relating to the future describing God’s dealings with those who rise up against Israel.

Clearly, as we’ve established earlier, the current state of Israel is not the complete fulfillment of God’s promised re-establishment of Israel in the land. That will occur when Jesus returns to rule over them. Until then they put their trust in military might AS EVERY OTHER NATION DOES – and their future suffering at the hands of “Antichrist” will put an end to their trust in themselves and their own might. That suffering will come to an end when they recognise the LORD is their strength and HE will put an end to it.

Please note I deleted your link to the video of “orthodox jews” railing against “Zionism”. I don’t inform my theology from the opinions of Jesus-rejecting religions. My beliefs are based on scripture. The speakers in your video might reject the validity of an Israel returned to the land God promised them but scripture does NOT. Be aware that their beliefs are based on the interpretations of their chosen Rabbis, not on scripture itself.

I note on that video their comments about the friendly Moslems and Moslem nations who always helped them in the past – such an attitude is the VERY thing that will lead to their acceptance of the beast/ man of lawlessness/ Antichrist in the final days before the return of the TRUE Christ, Israel’s Messiah, Jesus.

(I have now restored and approved the link to video of the orthodox Jew that you posted yesterday).

Not due to those Rabbis?

If Jews listen to Rabbis who reject Jesus would they be better off?

If WE listen to the word of Jesus-rejecting Rabbis and their opposition of zionism – would we be better informed about God’s plans for Israel? Or would it be better to be informed by scripture and what GOD has revealed?

You write as if Zionism is a self-powered force acting independently of God’s purposes. That is NOT the case.
And you continue to link Zionism with Dispensationalism as if that is the ONLY way people see validity in Israel being in the land. That is not the case. Zionist Dispensationalism MAY lead to people falling away – but it is not the only thing. ALL of man’s theology and opinion makes us vulnerable. People will fall away for seemingly MANY reasons, but in reality there will be one cause: they trust man’s ideas above God’s revelation.

So, instead of looking for the philosophies of Jesus-rejecting men to find support for a personal viewpoint, it would be far wiser to stick with the revelation of scripture and be informed by that.

GOD through scripture reveals the future of Israel. It is through hearing and sticking with God that we will avoid the kind of deception that will lead to falling away from the faith. Seeking man’s opinion takes us step by step away from the security found only in God.

The point I was trying to make in posting the video of those rabbis is that they at least understnd Gods will for them being “in the land” much better than Jewish Zionists or Christian Zionists infected with dispensationalism.

They disagree with secular Zionism “jumping the gun” as it were and possesing the land in their own strength by scheming behind the scenes since the 1800’s with the political powers and money changers of the world.

There is a mountain of evidence the size of Mt. Everest that proves THAT is how they got back into the land.

And God let them do it. God allows men to do alot of things that are wrong so that their backslidings will heal them in the end.

BTW, the reason I am so adamant about the things I wrote above is because I’ve been told in the past that I was in sin for not supporting Israel’s wars even to the point that it was suggested that if I wasn’t willing to join the IDF and fight for Israel with arms that I wasn’t being a good Christian and would be punished by God or sent to hell if I didn’t repent.

Of course I know that you wouldn’t agree with that.

Also, like I said above, John McTernan said if Israel is ever scattered again, you can throw your Bibles away.

He posted that nonsense on his blog for all Christianity to see and be led astray by.

I will no longer have any fellowship or have part with such men and will withstand their every breath.

John Hagee is another one of the false teachers of these things and as far as Christians go, it’s dispensationalism hands down that is will be the cause for many to fall away.

If I had to guess a percentage of Christians that will fall away from false teachings by name, dispensationalism will cause more than 75%.

The current state of Israel is a vital part of God’s plan to return Israel permanently to the land He promised them.

He promised a return to the land “not for their sake” – not because they deserve it – but for His name’s sake. Some time after their return to the land they will recognise their Messiah and enter the new covenant through faith in Him.

No man or men – Jew or otherwise – would be capable of overcoming all of the odds to create the nation named Israel and sustain it against massive military hostility from its immediate neighbours over a period of 6 decades.

God did not just “allow” the creation and maintenance of the state – He clearly involved Himself in it. To conclude otherwise is to give far too much glory to the capabilities of man.

HE moved them back to the land despite their continued disobedience because they need to be in the land in preparation for end time events and their ultimate reconciliation with Him.

HE moved them back into the land to continue His discipline of them – discipline that will lead them to trust in HIM for their security instead of their own might.

HE has sustained them in the land for 6 decades, but man sees they have sustained themselves. Future events will make it clear WHO has been responsible for Israel’s continues security, that it has not been their own military cunning and strength.

“No man or men – Jew or otherwise – would be capable of overcoming all of the odds to create the nation named Israel and sustain it against massive military hostility from its immediate neighbours over a period of 6 decades.”

I disagree.

I’ve studied the history of secular Zionism quite extensively and it was due to tireless scheming with political leaders and money changers that got them back into the land.

Here is a good place to start although they don’t get into the backroom deals with men like the Rothchilds.

It is GOD who determines nations and their borders. It is not man and man’s efforts.

Instead of studying secular sources about secular political issues then looking for scripture to support your findings it would be more profitable to study scripture FIRST and interpret the world and events through what SCRIPTURE says rather than vice versa.

How long before you suggest that WWII and the holocaust were part of this Jewish conspiracy to facilitate their zionist ambitions?
The VERY claim I recently saw being promoted on another site.

Do you think God is incapable of using men’s scheming to achieve HIS purpose? Do you think He can’t act according to His own will unless men pray?
Do you ignore the fact that He promised to bring them back to the land BEFORE they turn to Him? That He would bring them back to Him AFTER their return to the land from among all the nations?

Men can scheme as much as they like but they can not bring about the impossible merely through scheming.

No one wants to knowingly follow anything false, but many do because for some reason they choose to trust the ideas of men instead of turning first to God and His revelation.

Note I have not approved your last lengthy comment, at the end of which you express tentative acceptance of the idea that the Jew’s were behind WWII. Such ideas show the danger of the entanglements of Satan’s “conspiracy theory” snare.

This has nothing to do with worshipping Isarel or the Jews. It is about the TRUTH regarding Israel and the Jews as revealed in scripture.

Many “Christians” do have wrong attitudes towards the Jews and Israel – and those wrong attitudes cover widely diverse and even opposing views. Some are too favourable and others are plainly anti-semitic.
That is why it is essential to rely on what GOD has revealed instead of giving in to man’s prejudices.

Does it make any difference why some people are deluded? We could just as well ask why so many are so hostile to secular Jews and the land of Israel.

Both are unhealthy attitutudes that need to be repalced by GOD’s attitude towards them – that attitude is revealed in scripture and not in the writings of prejudiced men (whichever extreme that prejudice takes).

And what has been the greater problem throughout church history? Having a too positive attitude to the Jew or being too hostile?

If they continue to follow those men and the teachings of those men instead of seeking out the truth for themselves – then they have (or will) fall away – assuming they’ve even been in a postion to fall away from.

It’s not a mere matter of deleting a sentence or two to sanitise a post – the issue is what informs what you are promoting. Informed by the willingness to consider that “zionists” were behind the funding of WWII.

But that search will be severely hampered by the attitude expressed in the last part of your comment. As if “rich zionists” are the sole source of financial misery and are the only ones guilty of “selfish money changing”.
Before you start your search you will need to repent of the clear bigotry expressed in those latter comments you made.

If you think it’s right before God to falsely accuse me publicly of anti-semitism and bigotry and refuse to allow me to tell the public that I have Jewish blood in my family AND Jewish friends, you are sadly mistaken.

I forgive you but you seriously need to repent of your lording over me and refusing to allow me to defend myself.

This isn’t about the Zionism issue, it’s about you treating a brother badly.

My freedom of speech doesn’t come by the constitution or your permission, it comes from God.

1) I have not accused you of anti-Semitism. I have pointed out you are getting your “theology” from the wrong sources. You are searching for “Zionist” conspiracies instead of searching the scriptures for God’s view.
2) Whether or not you have “Jewish blood” and whether “the public” knows this is irrelevant to the issue.
3) I have not been “lording over” you. I have been exercising my responsibility as owner of this blog to keep it free of the kind of attitude you have displayed in the 10+ comments I’ve had to delete.
4) If you want to “defend” yourself and promote your own ideas – start your own blog. This blog is not intended for anyone and everyone to push strange beliefs.
5) YOU are the one who made “this” into a “Zionism issue”. My posts about Israel were all addressing a biblical perspective from a New Testament point of view. I did not turn to political statements from non-Christian sources to support any point.
6) God does not give you freedom of speech. Read James about the power of the tongue and see where such “freedom” leads.

The thing is, just as many of us have come out of the established main stream “church” and publicly expose many of it’s workings as false, we need to be able to do the same in regards to the natural branches as well.

I’m not doctrinally immovable and am totally willing to have my mind changed by God when I’m wrong.

My attitude with regards to this is no different than when I look at the “church” and its heaping up teachers according to their own desires. And make no mistake, the church is no better than Israel when it comes to doing it’s own thing without a care as to what the will of God is.

The church has indeed violated what Paul said when he warned it to not be haughty towards the natural branches. All I’m trying to do is reconcile what I see going on with Israel the same way I do when exposing false teachers and false prophets within the church.

The best explanation I can come up with before getting into an extensive study on “the land” is that God saw the Zionists scheming to get Israel back and gave it to them to “choke on” just as He did when he sent the quail to satisfy their craving in the wilderness.

I believe if God was directly involved in this pre final gathering instead of just allowing them to return to the land in their own strength it is to bring them to the end of themselves so they would never again trust in the arm of the flesh.

I’m not trying to question the sovereignty of God, but I believe that if men have free will that God doesn’t violate then so do countries that happen to be filled with men.

Its kind of like the old saying about giving someone enough to hang themselves.