The doctrines of original sin and eternal damnation cause the most psychological distress by creating the ultimate double bind. You are
guilty and responsible, and face eternal punishment. Yet you have no ability to do anything about it.

You must conform to a mental test of “believing” in an external, unseen source for salvation, and maintain this state of belief until death. You
cannot ever stop sinning altogether, so you must continue to confess and be forgiven, hoping that you have met the criteria despite complete lack of
feedback about whether you will actually make it to heaven.

Salvation is not a free gift after all.

For the sincere believer, this results in an unending cycle of shame and relief. It is a cycle of abuse.

Pretty clearly states what can happen. There's LOTS of information available out there - if people would only look at the links and read them
without flipping out and becoming hysterical trying to deny that this happens, they'd be able to see. Maybe.

I've stated that NOT HARMING OTHERS is something we are able to figure out WITHOUT RELIGION. Why not just say, "I KNOW I shouldn't wrong or hurt
anyone by being careless." There's nothing to fear in doing the right thing.

well ya we can figure out that its wrong to harm others and we may follow it,

but what will happen when it conflicts self-interest? Would there be enough motivation/integrity to stand by the same belief?

I wouldnt say just going to regular church actually cause mental disorders or trauma, alot of it has to do with where you grow up and your family. I
decided as a teen church wasnt for me and it caused me alot of resentment being forced to go 2-3 times a week, and do all these social activities with
people i couldnt stand, I was the shy quiet loner growing up. having my family and all their friends constantly witnessing to me i almost felt looked
down upon, a black sheep. Lots of towns in the deep south and midwest everything seems to revolve around church or football, you get married my 20
and start making babies. When i got the chance i moved out west and never moved back, met lots of cool travlers, got into hiking, backpacking,
snowboarding, backpacked around some of the Hawaiian islands for a while. and actually have the freedom to enjoy life on my own terms i still get
bummed sometimes i dont see my family much, but also realize life in the deep south isnt for me and im much more content overall.

I'm open minded to what you're saying. However, language like the word, "thumper", referring to your readers as such I do not support you in. It
is derisive and childish to expect to be taken seriously by the same people you're in multiple cases of your opening post berating. I am not one of
those you're referring to but I am defending them because your attacks are inappropriate.

From what I have read so far in your article and quote from your othr article , number one , I am seeing a de programmer at work . Those who abduct
poeple and use brain washing techniques to do everything that they accuse the religion of having done .
Deprogrammers are like your on the street MK Ultra amateurs and bruts .. I believe in free will and choice . People dont get sucked into a religion
they choose it and choose what to believe within it and how much of a follower of the organisations leaders. Free Will . The deprogrammers are the
weak willed ones who always blames others outside of themselves , because they cannot take responsibility for what they choose . Thus the trauma
begins as a personality begins to split weight down by cowardice .

And secondly . It does sound like society in general and the pressures from each other to conform to rigid thoughts and mind set , actions , what you
eat , how you dress , where you live , who owns you , being a government body that you gave all your power away to in exchange for what
???

Originally posted by BlueMule
"Religion is a defense against the experience of God." -Carl Jung

This is what happens when a religion looses its connection to mysticism. It becomes an empty, traumatic, stale defense mechanism against the genuine
experience of numinous liminality.

edit on 27-3-2013 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Love this quote here . Carl Jung had such a deeper mind that his
other famous peer Fraud . Fraud was material based like our writer ( deducing ) and Jung was actually immersing himself and meditative states and
reading ancient texts of wisdoms.
The real religion is always within . The external form andpractises are to stimulate an inner connection . Religion does become used by the power
hungry to exert control . And now name how many other groups and organisation will do that .

Damn well everyone of them that a human touches, who is afflictted by the material disease of the heart still motivated by the desires to gain
wealth , adoration, and distinction from the rest of the pack .

Every time I read a person analysis of religion such as the poster of the thread , I always see those same symptoms within every group , organisation
where humans gather . It does not mean itsbad , it is wrong . It means that people are acting out according to their own desires and one must learn to
have disernment as to your own place in their concoction of what they believe how a group should function . Your societal life is being shoved down
your throats , yet the poster hones in on one small aspect of human functioning to make it seem as if only one section is traumatising the embodied
souls .
The whole damn lot is TRAUMA if we remain disconnected from our Self and become the blind leading the blind society .,religion , city council , PTA
etc and on it goes down the line , untill you want to act different and engage yourself in who you are on a deeper level . Your choice . See the
repetitive game plans we follow . Caught in the maze of action that repeats itself throughout history .
So those repetitive action can be used to free yourself as well .

The only vitriolic posting on this thread's first page has emanated from you, OP. You've set it up so that anyone who disagrees is somehow
associated with your comments regarding gay-hating, and whatnot. Which is BS.

Nobody attacked you, and yet you attacked 'butcherguy' with vicious comments, insinuating that he was some sort of 'Westboro Baptist type' simply
for disagreeing with you..

Plus, his point - as regards the lack of professional support for [your/ the psychiatrist's] premise is valid - this one psychiatrist has a vendetta
against the abusive circle she was apparently raised in (quite possibly only a small section of the church was abusive - abusers tend to form quite a
close-knit circle, even when found in the wider bound of different social groups, they hide out by pretending to fit in with everyone else..) She
then spends her professional career seeking out people similarly abused by small groups of nasty folks, and then falsely associates the individual
examples of abuse with a wider societal group of 'biblically fundamental' churches - such churches that, in actual fact, are most often a positive
force for good in family, community & commerce/government life.

For one story of abuse by a 'fundamentalist' church, I could give you a list of thousands of positive stories of hope, regeneration of spirit-life,
a new & productive path in the ordinary domestic circumstance of life (etc..) But you've already decided that all churches are evil & abusive, by
the look of things.

For one story of abuse by a 'fundamentalist' church, I could give you a list of thousands of positive stories of hope, regeneration of
spirit-life, a new & productive path in the ordinary domestic circumstance of life (etc..)

Okay! Good! Go for it!

But you've already decided that all churches are evil & abusive, by the look of things.

Uh......no.
Not at any time did I "decide that all churches are evil and abusive."

seeking out people similarly abused by small groups of nasty folks

So you agree there are small groups of nasty folks, then?

and then falsely associates the individual examples of abuse with a wider societal group of 'biblically fundamental' churches -

Nope. I'm making people aware of how serious the issue is. I didn't write the article.
Others' contributions to the thread might have made you more aware, but I doubt you read all the way through.

Love this quote here . Carl Jung had such a deeper mind that his other famous peer Fraud . Fraud was material based like our writer ( deducing
) and Jung was actually immersing himself and meditative states and reading ancient texts of wisdoms.

I'm open minded to what you're saying. However, language like the word, "thumper", referring to your readers as such I do not support you
in. It is derisive and childish to expect to be taken seriously by the same people you're in multiple cases of your opening post berating. I am not
one of those you're referring to but I am defending them because your attacks are inappropriate.

Fair enough. I've been attacked numerous times. Which is inappropriate. I'm tired of it.
Excuse me for being ready for attack.

When it comes to recognizing symptoms or clusters of behaviors/thought patterns as results of either events or organic neurology, such as you
mentioned agoraphobia (or any other anxiety such as OCD, etc) Secondary to Aspergers,
there is a very careful system used to 'diagnose' - there is examination of 5 different Axes involved in arriving at whatever "code" is used.

Clinicians are trained to differentiate how certain clusters of behaviors came about, and treat that specific, root cause, with specific therapies
(and there are dozens of available methods) developed to address the actual root of the problem(s).

I know and I agree. I just didn't really want to get into the axis nomenclature because people without psychological training or their own issues
generally aren't familiar with that system, and I find it's easier to just use conversational jargon instead. (And it doesn't help that there's
often a strong anti-psychiatry/anti-psychology bias on ATS... no offense to anyone's beliefs, but it's true in my experience.)

But I guess that's what I was getting at. Is this a distinct syndrome covered by DSM axes and symptomatic criteria? Or is it a constellation of other
already established syndromes or disorders, but with a specific etiology based solely in how it develops?

well ya we can figure out that its wrong to harm others and we may follow it,

but what will happen when it conflicts self-interest? Would there be enough motivation/integrity to stand by the same belief?

What will happen? If a person knows the difference between right and wrong, there's no question of 'standing by the same belief'. Yes, there would
be enough motivation/integrity.

But, I realize I have not lived in the culture or country where you live, and maybe the conditions there do overcome the impulse/motivation to
NOT HARM another....which could lead to violence, where I am addressing the issue as it plays out in the USA.

Originally posted by wildtimes
The doctrines of original sin and eternal damnation cause the most psychological distress by creating the ultimate double bind. You are guilty and
responsible, and face eternal punishment. Yet you have no ability to do anything about it.

Hmmm......

Pretty major conclusion. Is this based on a reall scientific study? Or is this just her OPINION based on her BELIEF SYSTEM.

People who probably went to this shrink already decided they didn't like their religion. She already had a scewed sample population.

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