Monday, September 24, 2007

I recently had a discussion with a woman on a debate forum. She has been claiming to her friends that it’s a 100% fact that the abomination of desolation will take place within a few years and that Christ will come back in less than seven years. While attempting to instill some reason within her, a discussion arose about the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24. Sue claimed, as many do, that Jesus taught that the fig tree represented Israel, that the fig tree growing leaves was symbolic of Israel becoming a nation, and that Christ will return to the generation that sees this event.

Here's the verse:

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:32-34)

While I would never say that Christ will not come back in our generation, I feel that it’s important to avoid getting sucked into pop culture prophetic interpretations. Below is a portion of my discussion with Sue in an attempt to scripturally and logically show her why the parable of the fig tree teaching that Jesus delivered on the Mount of Olives does not teach what she believes it to teach. I hope you will see why this Hal Lindsey fig tree teaching is absurd, and I think you will certainly find that Sue did not become a fan of yours truly!

Sue's comments are in bold lettering.

Look, Jesus told us that when Israel becomes a nation again, this generation will not pass away.

The fig tree in Matt. 24:32 is not a symbolic message speaking of the Jews obtaining Israel. It is simply a parable, just as Jesus said it was:

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree.."

It's a general statement about ALL trees, and the fact that when they put forth leaves, obviously summer is near. Similarly, when we see the things Jesus teaches of in Matt 24 we will know He is near.

Luke proves that He truly speaking of trees in general and not Israel.

"Behold the fig tree and ALL the trees..." Luke 21:29

Simply a parable! God help you. Why do you even bother to believe that Jesus died for our sins? Do you believe the parable of the seeds? Or maybe that is just a story about seeds? Maybe, Jesus was just telling us how to plant a garden?

Thanks for the sarcasm and rudeness, but you have a misunderstanding of parables. In the parable of the seeds Jesus actually teaches what the meaning of the parable is by explaining what the seeds are, what the soil represents and what the outcome is of each. And you would not, nor would anyone, ever say it meant anything else or that there was some hidden, secret meaning to the parable.

The parable of the fig tree in Matt 24 and Luke 21 is exactly the same. Jesus gives the short parable and then, just as He did with the parable of the seeds, He explains what it means. When the TREES (plural) grow leaves we know that summer is near. Explanation? Just like the trees indicate that summer is near, the end times signs, abomination, etc, indicate that He is near. You won't add to scripture in the parable of the seeds, so why would we add to scripture with this parable?

And you've ignored the Luke passage that speaks of "all the trees." Does that mean when all the lost nations become nations again Christ will come back in that generation? Of course not, but YOU would have to say that it does in order to be scripturally consistent.

In Mark 11:13 Jesus shook the fig tree and said that it would die. This symbolizes that Israel has been blinded. In fact, not only does this speak about Israel, but, specifically, the temple. Read the scripture. But, to you, it probably means that your God kills trees that He doesn't like.

Again, Jesus gives the answer to the parable, and tells us what He meant without mincing words or adding a Hal Lindsey type of deep meaning that is not indicated. Please don't poop out on me now! Please keep reading!

Mark 11:20-24As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."

And Jesus answered saying to them, "HAVE FAITH IN GOD. Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, BELIEVE that you have received them, AND THEY WILL BE GRANTED TO YOU.

Jesus had faith and his request was granted. It showed the disciples that faith can move mountains. That is the answer to the parable and Jesus PLAINLY explained it. Faith can move mountains! But this time you've completely ignored the answer to the parable that Jesus gave and created another Israel application. Is this because of your desire to prove that Christ HAS to come back in this generation?

In Jeremiah 24, God specifically tells us that figs are referring to Israel. Read this.

Sure. In THIS passage figs represent Israel. Does that automatically mean that all references to figs are references to Israel? If so, and to be consistent, you must also say that that all references to seeds are references to the word of God as it is in the Matthew 13 parable. This doesn't add up.

Now if you still wish to believe that it was just a story about trees, then you should read these scriptures. This is a very good scripture.

Luke 12:54-56He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

Now you're calling me a hypocrite. Nice. Sorry I've tried, with the utmost patience by the way, to help those that have been misled by teachers that attempt to add to and to create hidden, secret meaning to God's word. Sorry you don't like it when someone disagrees with you and plainly explains scripture in an attempt to help you understand. I feel as if I couldn't have been more gracious in my communication with you.------

There's quite a bit more to this discussion, and you may view it in its entirety here, if you would like. So that you will know who is saying what on the forum, my screen name is "smackbucket."

26 comments:

Anonymous
said...

Hey Smackbucket! Very nice job explaining the parable of the fig tree not being Israel. Praise God He has opened his Word to you with wisdom and understanding. I also see the same things you did, "all the trees" can't be other nations. Even references about fig trees in the Old Testement to me don't say they represent Israel. On the other hand, I see the Olive tree representing Israel more than the fig (not that I really want to make wierd prophetic interpretations). In Romans 11 Paul refers to the Jewish nation directly to (a fig tree?? nope) an Olive tree. Same in Revelation 11 with the 2 witnesses. So anyhow, God bless you. from James email me at GeeCu1@yahoo.com

how are u so sure...i cant say yes he will come in 7 yrs or no...there's no way she can say that...but i believe the fig tree is Israel and not only that..but the body of Christ is the fig tree as well...i attended a meeting or DR Sherlock Bally and he illustrated it it perfectly..he is a minister for 36 yrs and i will listen to his word against any other person who just want to make someone else look like the don't know what they're talking about, because it's not what they understood when they read...he also said that the battle of Magog and Gog is Russia and its leaders planning war...and a whole lots of very revealing and interesting insights..u should listen to him..he was appointed by God therefore anointed.

Pop prophetic culture on the Fig Tree? Are you kidding? That's like saying Jesus is a pop culture teaching that should be ignored! Try a verified date to AD 100 as the fig tree being taught among Christians as Israel!

People should be very cautious with what they teach and “insist” is true of FUTURE prophecy unless they are God and they have it all figured out.

The Gospel of Matthew (a fig tree) is very different from Luke (a fig tree and all the trees). If the Scriptures ARE inspired then Matthew is in error! He left out the other trees and his teaching is false. Or perhaps one should get out of their box and let God out of the box they have placed Him in. Who is to say that this is speaking of the same thing? Perhaps there is no error and they are BOTH inspired passages!

Also, what then is the identifying mark of Jesus coming? Earthquakes, famines, wars, rumors of wars? Gee, those are unique! Surly we won’t miss those signs! Why did Jesus even waste his breath in speaking Matthew 24? There is no identifying mark that sets it apart from any other time. Not one. That is unless the “fig tree” enters in. Then, and only then does an identifying marker enter into the picture and provide a purpose to what Jesus spoke. Remove the fig tree as an identifying marker and every word spoken in Matthew 24 is worthless and meaningless.

When the disciples asked Jesus about when He would return… why did He just save some space and say… it won’t any different from any other time. You won’t know. Hey, that sounds something like Pretrib! It could happen at any moment! Doesn’t it? I thought this was a pre-wrath site… which, and correct me if I’m wrong, states that we WILL see it coming.

That would seem to fit well with the idea of the fig tree representing Israel, wouldn’t it?

>>>There is no identifying mark that sets it apart from any other time. Not one. That is unless the “fig tree” enters in. Then, and only then does an identifying marker enter into the picture and provide a purpose to what Jesus spoke. Remove the fig tree as an identifying marker and every word spoken in Matthew 24 is worthless and meaningless.<<<

Huh? In your high emotion you're not recognizing the obvious.

v 33. so, you too, when you see ALL THESE THINGS, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

What are all these things? Israel becoming a nation? No. That's not "things." That's one thing. But Jesus mentioned no such thing in His teaching. He mentioned the birth pains, and the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, plus the signs in the sky.

"There is no identifying mark that sets it apart from any other time. Not one." ??? Really? The abomination of desolation is not a clear identifying mark to let us know He is near?

ologresNot so fast smackbucket... the Apocalypse of Peter dates to AD 100... it was commonly taught among Christians. The fig tree was seen as Israel... Mr. Lindsey didn't make that up nor is it a "pop" teaching. You are 100% wrong on this!

And you sir seem a presumptuous teacher!

You don't respond to my comment Matthew's "inspired" error, but rather choose “the abomination of desolation” as the identifying marker. If this was all that Jesus spoke of you might have some ground to stand upon. Based on the full context of the passage a general marker identifying the time for ALL the events is required OR the only thing that has any meaning is the abomination of desolation. Once more that which you speak of is in the middle of the passage, not as a conclusion to the passage as one would expect of such a marker. The fig tree holds this position.

You say this is what those living in the first century understood. It was just a tree. Really? I give you the Apocalypse of Peter as to what THEY understood... Jesus teaches Peter in this first century document that the fig tree is Israel. And your proof from the first century is? Because you say so! You have NOTHING more and I flat know it because unlike you I have researched this thoroughly and I know that what you are teaching is unsupported by anything other than the air passing through your lips. It is vapor. If not, bring forth your proof or apologize to people for making something seem to be true when it is based in nothing more than your words.

I believe that your basic problem is a failure to place this passage in the entirety of the context in which it occurs.

So, let’s frame this alittle better. Jesus' exact words in the Greek to the fig tree were "No more from you, may fruit be to the age (aion)"

This was a timed curse, it was to have a beginning and an end. And that end would be the "End of the Age."

And please don’t go down the road of saying that “aion” can translate as “forever.” There are 118 occurrences of this word and in EVERY instance where the Greek genuine article precedes the word “aion” (as in this case) it is for a fixed duration of time not an infinite duration of time, as it speaks to a specific “aion,” which by the way is where we get the English word “eon.” And yes, I individually looked at every single occurrence in its context. All of our translations do however imply the curse was “forever” due to the first century (and beyond) understanding that this curse of the fig tree WAS on Israel and the Church had replace Israel. Thus Israel was cursed “forever.” And 100 years ago Catholics pointed to this passage as proof that Israel would never be a nation again. A “pop” prophetic teaching? This aside…

Jesus is then in the temple and states "your house is left to you desolate" and He states that he is leaving. This shocks the disciples.

The next occurrence of the word "aion" is in the disciples questions: When will these things be, what will be the sign of your return and the end of the age (aion). Hummm… the very same word spoke in the curse is a part of the disciple’s question that is directly connected with Jesus return. This question occurs a day and a half after the curse and within 6 hours after they had seen the tree pass from a state of being "wilted" to being completely dried up from its root. It had the appearance of a tree in the middle of WINTER. These questions come just 6 hours later!

And just 6 hours later Jesus says; learn the lesson FROM the fig tree... and you think they didn't know exactly what tree he was talking about? But that it was to "trees" in general that He was referring?

Let's see if you can connect the dots...

They heard Him curse the "tree" to the age (aion) and the tree wilts. The disciples are shocked at what he did. It didn't make sense.

The next morning this same tree is dried up from its root. (The tree cursed to the age and having an appearance of being in the dead of winter).

He then states that Israel's house is left to them desolated (this is the past tense as something having already happened). And Jesus says He's leaving.

He then tells the disciples the temple will be destroyed with not one stone left upon another.

They then ask him when He will return AND when the Age (aion) will end? (both are connected together)

Connecting the dots is not difficult nor is it mystical. Answer this question: Where else exactly did the disciples come to make the connection between the end of the “aion” and Jesus’ return? Good luck.

Do you really believe that after years of waking with Jesus... the disciples needed a lesson on faith? They saw Jesus heal every disease and sickness, cast out demons, walk on water, heal the dead, feed thousands with the food for a few and raise the dead to life... and you think that Jesus now in his very last days needs to give them this final lesson on faith?

Jesus said he was hungry! (Did he lie?) Then He walks toward a fig tree (in April). I'll bet all the disciples that were following him expected to eat figs that morning! April or not! Hey, now wouldn’t that be faith builder too? What a great message on God’s ability to supply all our needs. Jesus could have called figs forth from the fig tree. He was hungry. And such a miracle would be about faith with a purpose!

The truth is there was a purpose to that miracle and it did involve faith, but it went well beyond a fig tree that wasn't supposed to have figs. Its season had not come. So also, Israel's season had not come. You won’t understand this, and I’m not going to go there, but THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS HAD TO BE FULFILLED… it’s why Jesus came. Read the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 24… not one jot, not one tittle.

The plane truth is He didn't kill the fig tree. He sent it into its winter. Nowhere in Scripture does it say the fig tree was dead… that has been a presumption that the words of the curse will not support.

This parable (a veiled truth with a greater spiritual meaning NEVER a plain truth as you say) then speaks of spring as the tree buds to life, then following this, SUMMER in known to be near. He is known to be right at the door!

Here we find a tree in winter, spring and summer. Hummm… it seems to fit EVEN IN THE ORDER IT IS SPOKEN. At least the last time I checked this was how the seasons worked. Do you think Jesus knew that too?

Again, according to you, the veiled teaching if the parable is pointless. Why use it at all? Oh yes, and one other thing, the disciples did NOT ask Jesus to explain the PARABLE. Nor did Jesus EVER explain the PARABLE. You’re confused. They asked Jesus HOW the tree withered and HOW it lost all its leaves… faith was Jesus’ answer. This had NOTHING to do with explaining the PARABLE as you claimed. It only explained HOW, not WHY. You have assumed the HOW was the WHY. These are not automatically connected.

Jesus’ point in Matthew 24 was that there would be far more than the abomination of desolation to identify this time. The entire SEASON was to be known and identifiable.

A great Bible teacher once said; "narrowness of interpretation is that bane of Apocalyptic study.” No narrower interpretive THEORY can be found than the one you propose. It is a THEORY because you have nothing to support it, much like evolution.

Just for giggles... name one other miracle that was senseless. Because according to your interpretation it is senseless and truly served no purpose other than a gaudy display divine power. And, I know of no such thing ever occuring... divine power is never wasted... it always has a divine purpose that OFTEN goes well beyond our understanding. 'Your ways are not My ways, My ways are much higher than your ways.' Yet you seem to make your ways, His ways.

Had you not taken such a self presumed position that had NO biblical support, nor any historical support, and made statements of truth that are false, you would have received far more grace from me. If you were not teaching others... you would have received even more grace still... teachers shall receive a stricter judgment, so teach with care, caution (reverence) and humility above all else, especially when future prophetic passages are involved.

I disagree with Mr. Lindsey on much, but I do it from the literal teaching of the Bible in its context and from history. A any-moment return is vapor and has little more support than the air passing through his lips. However, in my estimation on this teaching of the fig tree, he has a 100% probability of being right to your 0% based on the objective evidence. And, by the way, this goes far beyond anything you have imagined it to be. But, that is something I can’t talk about just yet. But I will say this; it’s all connected together in the most “literally” miraculous way, all of it, and every last word of it. Would we truly want or expect anything else from God?

You don't respond to Matthew's "inspired" error.

You say this is what those living in the first century understood. Really? I give you the Apocalypse of Peter as to what THEY understood... and your proof is?

Because you say so! You have NOTHING more and I flat know it because unlike you I have researched this thoroughly and I know that what you are teaching is unsupported by anything other than the air passing through your lips.

Lets frame this. Jesus' exact words in the Greek "No more from you, may fruit be to the age (aion)"

This was a timed curse, it was to have a beginning and an end. And that end would be the "End of the Age."

He is then in the temple and states "your house is left to you desolate" and He states that he is leaving. This shocks the disciples.

The next occurance of the word "aion" is in the disciples questions: When will these things be, what will be the sign of your return and the end of the age (aion). This question occurs a day and a half after the curse and within 6 hours after they had seen the tree pass from a state of being "wilted" to being completely dried up from its root. These questions come just 6 hours later.

Jesus then 6 hours later says learn the lesson FROM the fig tree... and you think they didn't know exactly what tree he was talking about? But that it was "trees" in general.

Let's see if you can connect the dots...

They heard Him curse the "tree" to the age and the tree wilts. The disciples are shocked at what he did. It didn't make sense.

The next morning this same tree is dried up from its root. (The tree cursed to the age).

He then states that Israel's house is left to them desolated (past tense as having already happened). And Jesus says He's leaving.

He then tells them the temple will be destroyed with not one stone left upon another.

They then ask him when He will return AND when the Age will end?

Connecting the dots is not difficult nor is it mystical.

Do you raelly believe that after years of waking with Jesus... the disciples needed a lesson on faith? They saw Jesus heal every disease and sickness, cast out demons, walk on water, heal the dead, feed thousands with the food for a few and raise the dead to life... and you think that Jesus now in his last days needed to give them this final lesson on faith?

He said he was hungry! Then He walks toward a fig tree. I'll bet all the disciples that were following him expected to eat figs out of season! Hey, now wouldn'd that be faith too? And it would be faith with a purpose!

The truth is there was a purpose to that miracle and it did involve faith, but it went well beyond a fig tree that wasn't supposed to have figs. It's season had not come. So also, Israel's season had not come.

The plane truth is He didn't kill the fig tree. He sent it into its winter.

The parable (a veiled truth NOT a plain truth as you say)then speaks of spring as the tree buds. Following this SUMMER in known to be near. He is known to be right at the door!

Again, according to you the veiled teaching if the parable is pointless. Why use it at all?

Jesus point was that there would be far more than the abomination of desolation to identify this time. The entire SEASON was to be known.

A great Bible teacher once said; "narrowness of interpretation is that bane of Apocalyptic study. No narrower interpretation can be found that the one you propose.

Just for giggles... name one other miracle that was senseless. Because according to your interpretation it is senseless and truly served no purpose other than a gaudy display divine power. And, I know of now such thing... divine power is never wasted... it always has a divine purpose that OFTEN goes well beyond our understanding. 'Your ways are not My ways, My ways are much higher than your ways.' Yet you seem to make your ways His ways.

Had you not taken such a self presumed position that had NO biblical support... you would have recieved far more grace from me. If you were not teaching others... you would have received more grace still... teachers shall receive a stricter judgment, so teach with care, caution (reverence) and humility above all else. Especially when future prophetic passages are involved.

Really? You mean that? I'm starting to think you're the woman that got this all started of FP, because you've got a lot of bitterness coupled with little maturity. Could that be why I didn't answer your other post...or this one. :)

You ignore the context of the passage... you ignore addressing your multiple false statements... you ignore the PLAIN words of the texts... why in the world should anyone listen to anything you have to say if you will not deal with the issues at hand?

Either you can answer ALL that I have laid before you or you can't. And if you can't, then have the decency to apologize for your errors and treating this as a "pop" teaching... saying that Jesus explained the parable when He didn't... etc. To error is human... to forgive divine.

You think me "bitter" because I have chosen to confront you? You fail to read into the Bible what is there so you can avoid the issue... and then you read into my post what is not there to avoid the issue.

I suppose you think Jesus was bitter when he said of the leaders. "Hypocrites!" When they refused to acknowledge the clear signs around them, or perhaps you think Jesus bitter when the leaders rejected His authority and He asked them 'How they would escape the sentence of hell that would come to them?'

Or perhaps you see bitterness in the apostle John (the one who loved above the others) when he confronted the false teaching that Jesus had ONLY come in the spirit and not in the flesh. He must have been bitter in his older age as he lacked modern Christian "grace" in saying that these teachers were of antichrist, and to have nothing to do with them... I could go on... I have Peter and Paul still to go... but I think I have made my point.

And no, I am not saying YOU are a hypocrite, going to hell, or of the antichrist, so don't try and now accuse me of this to elevate yourself as being nobler as you did with that poor woman. I believe you to be superficially misinformed.

Because I strongly oppose what you teach, does not make me bitter or justify your avoidance of the issues. I am no bitterer than Jesus, John, Peter or Paul. I would suggest that the only bitterness was the indigestion you felt at having your "authority" as a teacher called into question.

People typically avoid issues when they have no worthy reply and they are too filled with their own pride to admit error. A man, who is quick to see his error, admit it, and change his course, is someone I would follow. All men error, the test is what they do with it.

I am hardly the same woman, so you can't justify not answering based on that. Had you been having this conversation with me at the outset the misinformation would have been immediately stopped and exposed from the outset. My understanding of this passage goes well beyond hers; Mr. Lindsey's and I shall leave it for others to determine if it surpasses yours.

Oh, and by the way, silence is not a sign of maturity, as you accuse me of being immature.

None of what I said was a personal attack upon you as your comments about my personally being bitter and immature were personal attacks on me that had nothing to do with the issues.

You accused me also of having a high "passion." For this I thank you. People should be on fire for God's truth and they should be as passionate for that truth as they are for God. I question were people are in their walk with God if they lack passion. Have they lost the fire they once had? Did they ever have it at all? God is not a mental exercise. God is very real and very passionate.

I agree that there clearly was a fig tree teaching mentioned in the middle of the second century. I didn't know that. But you couldn't be more wrong about me being unwilling to admit my mistakes. You will find more than one admission on this site. In fact, I have one in bold, red letters to show where I was wrong because I felt it was a great example.

I don't have a problem being proven wrong, BUT when it's done by an individual that acts like a typical internet prophecy jerk, I don't debate with them. They're everywhere, and it's proven fruitless.

If you walked up to a person and spoke like this in REAL life, rather than hiding behind an anonymous name, it wouldn't work. So why do you think it will work on a screen? I specifically have my real name associated with this blog in order to help keep myself in check, because I know others are reading. Here's just a tiny bit of your continual obnoxiousness to show you what I mean. ----And you sir seem a presumptuous teacher!the air passing through your lips. It is vapor.Let's see if you can connect the dots...You won’t understand this, and I’m not going to go there, butHummm…At least the last time I checkedAgain, according to you,You’re confused.Just for giggles... No narrower interpretive THEORY can be found than the one you propose.Yet you seem to make your ways, His ways.---

Anyway, feel free to continue to be obnoxious, and to continue to think that you're like Paul, John, Peter, Jesus, etc by doing so. But I won't waste time trying to communicate with you.

It's very obvious, and clear that the Fig Tree in Matthew 21 represents Israel, because he told the Jewish Leaders in Matthew 21:43 that the "kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth fruit"

Jesus cursed the fig tree in Matthew 21, and said "let no fruit grow henceforward FOR EVER". Notice he uses the word "fruit". Then he applies the same principle of "fruit" a few verses down when the Pharisees confront him the SAME DAY!

It's overwhelming evidence that the Fig Tree represents Israel.

Anyone who tries to dare disagree with this, is deceived. I feel really sorry for anyone who thinks God is going to save the nation of Israel.

NO my friends, Israel is doomed! they rejected Christ and had their last chance. There is no hope for the nation. For ever. Only Jews as individuals can repent, and join the new body of Israel for which Peter spoke of as being the Gentiles in 1 Peter 2:9.

Folks, I'm going to repeat it again. There is no pre-tribulation rapture. There is no allotted time of a 7 years of tribulation (if you dare, you are a Catholic Futurist infected by the Roman Jesuit Francisco Ribera who invented it), and the 1260 days is not the 2nd half of the 7 years...the 1260 days is years, and goes from 538 to 1798 of Papal Supremacy.

Also, the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 is not "disconnected" from the 69 weeks. The "one week" was from 27 A.D. to 24 A.D. Christ died in the "midst" of the week (31 A.D.), and the proper decree to start the 490 years is 457 A.D., the FIRST decree of Artaxerxes, not the second. The "prince" in verse 26 is Jesus Christ, and the "he" in verse 27 is ALSO Jesus Christ. It was the Jewish nation that "destroyed themselves" (Hosea 13:9), but the Roman Armies were just the "instrument" to inflict the desolation (39 years later) as a result of Israel's "abomination" in rejecting Christ.

The New Israel is are Jews and Gentiles alike. The nation of Israel has no chance. I repeat, no chance.

sorry, I just don't agree. I do think the fig tree represents Israel. Do you not agree that the whole time clock of Jesus' coming can be told by looking at Israel? The whole world revolves around God's chosen people. Who else would he be talking about in Matthew 24?

Anyone who wants to grow healthy plants should know that location is one of the most important factors that governs successful growth of plants. Most people buy a plant, go out into the garden, dig a hole somewhere, and place the plant in the soil: and when the plant fails to grow, they blame the nursery or soil. Site selection is vital if you want your plants to grow and thrive. Choosing the best site can save a lot of frustration and headaches.quick growing trees

whether Christ comes 70 years after the reformation of the fake "israel" on the map (as opposed to true Israel, the mystical body of believers); should not matter to us. As individuals we could die before 2019. Our souls are in danger every day of losing their earthly bodies. REPENT !!! Spend less time wondering "when" and a lot more using your time on this earth living as Christ told us, the rest is in God's hands.

I would also like to add that the abomination that causes desolation could happen more then once. If its only going to happen once, and it was in 70 AD.... Then.........

It has to happen again... And where was the son of perdition that claimed to be god? He wasnt around in 70AD?! So it hasnt happened yet. Its just exciting to be around to see israel....

But Jesus doesnt say that "if you see israel, then I will come back in your generation".. he says when you see the son of perdition, know that I am coming back in your generation...

So we need

IsraelTempleIncreased KnowledgePeople running to and froEarthquakes in various placesCommunications network to even know about earthquakes in various places????Wars and Rumors of wars.. see above?Abomination that causes desolation spoken by daniel.A great tribulation...THEN AND ONLY THEN...Will he come back.

So you have trouble dealing with the Pretrib Rapture Biblical point of view. Your strategy is to set up some sort of straw man and conn people into believing that the Biblical Perspective is not defensible.

Dunno Jews almost getting wiped out in WW2.Then the UN allows Israel to become a Nation.Now Israel holds more land after it's Wars with Egypt and Syria.Hebrew was a dead language now it's spoken again in Israel.Thats like a country bringing back Latin lol.Tech is rapidly expanding faster than the eye can see.More earth quakes are happening than ever before.Aids now is pretty much the number one killer and it was first discovered in homosexuals.Christ is spoken around the World thanks to tv.I don't know but their are many more signs that have already came to pass.I'm convinced the fig tree means Israel.Because didn't god promise he would return the Jews to Israel?Jews all over the World are returning to Israel lol.

Not to be critical, but can we as Christians, leave out sarcasm? You have a logical and valid argument, but isn't DOING right more important that BEING right? Yes, Sue was rude, but it seemed that your argument to her was also laced with sarcasm and cynicism. To say, "Thanks for the sarcasm" is actually sarcastic, unless you literally meant to thank her for some reason unbeknownst to me. Jesus said that we would be known for our love for each other. Why not let love be our motivation for correction instead of insecurity? Let's minister FROM love instead of FOR love. (: Love ya!

Matthew 24v32 .... http://bible.cc/matthew/24-32.htm Now learn this lesson from the……*fig tree*…… As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out,you know that summer is near.

Q....Do you know what this Fig-Tree relates to? A....Israel.

Israel is symbolised by three different trees..... THE VINE is a symbol of Israel's Spiritual privileges. THE FIG-TREE is a symbol of Israel's National privileges. THE OLIVE TREE is a symbol of Israel's Religious privileges. http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/lar…

Israel became a Nation on Pentecost 1948... Isaiah 66v8 .... http://bible.cc/isaiah/66-8.htm Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labour than she gives birth to her children.

Jeremiah 24v5 .... http://bible.cc/jeremiah/24-5.htm This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Like these……*good figs,*…… I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.

Hosea 9v10 …… http://bible.cc/hosea/9-10.htm When……* I found Israel,*…… it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the……*fig tree.*…… But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved.

We may not know the day or hour .... but we will certainly know the season.

Wow! The anonymous who posted on 3/10/2009 was spot on! I learned quite a bit from her post that I did not know before (I'd like to think I know a "lil' bit" about scripture to hold a decent conversation) but wow! Thank you to whomever you are...