Sanding questions.

I can't say enough about how much useful information I have found in
this news group. As I don't like freeloaders, I think I can contribute
something here.
As my nickname suggests, I do a LOT of sanding...and I mean a LOT.
And because I learn so much in this NG about my first love, woodworking,
I am more that happy to share what I have learned about sanding since
the days when solid surface countertops only came in 4 colours. (now 400)
Envision this:
a 4-ft x 6-ft kitchen island top.
Black or very dark colour.
Windows everywhere.
At the point of purchase, the customer signs a waiver.."This is black,
ma'm...it will show everything. Do NOT call me if the electrician drags
his tool-belt all over it."
But, as it is over 30" wide, I need to make a seam during fabrication.
And I get to sand it till the seam disappears.
Then I get to make it shiny..semi gloss. And optically flat.
Only the guys at Mt. Palomar Observatory have a more daunting task when
they polish their mirrors... ok..I embellish..
The most important things to remember,
1) Buy the best you can afford. One can drop a $1000 on a sander/sucker
combo. Fein comes to mind. My current favourite is Festool's Rotex 150
with a CT-22 sucker. Not only does the Rotex suck dirt off the work, it
also blows air in the middle of the pad. See animation under
Products>animation>RO 150E http://www.festool-usa.com /
The biggest punch for the buck for the non professional, IMHO and a
combo I use all the time, is the Ridgid 6" ROS (Really a Metabo) hooked
up to a good sucker with a 1 micron bag. I use a 4.5 HP (Yea right)
Shopvac with a 10 gallon 1 micron bag (Sold separately, batteries not
included, see you lawyers for details.)
2) make sure it has very good dust removal. See above
3) choose the right paper for the job. I now use, almost exclusively,
Mirka Abrinet. Sure it costs money, but lasts, and lasts and no holes to
align up on any 6" sander. It's a screen. I also make up a lot of my own
pads from Scotch-Brite style hand pads and I glue them on an old sanding
disk. NEVER put ScotchBrite-style pad directly onto your Hook & Loop
(Velcro) sander. The little nibs will wear off quickly.
4) clean..CLEAN.. in between sanding steps. The grit from the previous
paper WILL keep scratching. IOW.. when you go from 180 to 220, the work
is full of 180 size particles...blow it off, wipe it... hell, LICK it.!
I also use a LOT of sanding sponges..fine on one side, medium on the
other. Handy little things, those... CAREFUL when you sand along the
edge of an oak board along the grain. Large splinters can travel up
through the sponge and accordion into your right hand's index finger's
second joint, requiring surgery and enough antibiotics to make a grown
man puke.
Or so I'm told.
Hope this helps.
Rob
www.topworks.ca
PS.. I am not affiliated with Festool, Mirka, Pfizer, Heineken, Chivas,
Bentley Motor Cars, or Meg Ryan.
And the rumour that my Aunt Bee is a lesbian, is just that.... a rumour,
okay??

Very good Sandman. I'm sure however, that a few will reply back with,"Hey,
my Harbor Freight does the same job and it was only $6.00".
If you want to know what works best, ask someone who does it for a living.
They almost to a man say, buy the best tool you can afford.
The guy that installed the high end counter top at a friends home to the
center island I built for him did a masterful job. He used the same tools
and procedures you described below.
Very good point on cleaning between grit changes. This also applies to
sharpening as well.
Dave

I'll agree to a point, the best tool isn't the most expensive tool, and with
speaking of sanders, I Ryobi 5" ROS, I got 3+ years ago as a one time use,
I needed that day!, it was a refurbish for $20, use it, and was rather
impressed, later I did a comparison between it and my brothers B&D, I think
he paid $40 for it, and a friends Dewalt, costing only $80, and the B&D
didn't compare, just didn't have the same power, but the Ryobi and the
Dewalt where very close in preformace. the major diff that I could tell
was the Dewalt seems to be made better, the dust bag little heavier duty,
etc. and the Dewalts' probably going to last 2x-3x longer, but the Ryobi is
1/4 the price what do you expect! and the Ryobi seems mush better made then
the B&D, and dose a better job. take money out of the equation you get the
Dewalt, bring money back in and I have enough for the Dewalt, I'd get 2
Ryobi ROSs and a 1/4 sheet sander, an ROS for medium and then fine sanding
then the 1/4 for ultra fine finish sanding, for the same price I get a
complete sanding setup, and if one of my ROS breaks, I always have a
backup.
the other thing to look at here is the sander is only 3/4 of the equation,
not all sandpaper is created equal. I have a pack of assorted grits I got
from HF 2 years ago and it's almost full, I've only used like 2 sheets from
it, and it's probably going to stay that way for a long time the stuff was
complete crap, 3M isn't bad it's nothing great, the stuff that's impressed
me the most was the Nortin 3X, it's more then worth the extra cost, I
haven't done the math, but I wouldn't be supprized if it saves money in the
long run. the stuff lasts much longer.
Sandman is a pro, his sanders keep food on the table, my guess is his setup
isn't, at least in concept, that much different then mine, the major diff
is he's using much more expensive tools, if one of my sanders goes down,
it's a pain to change grits on the remanding ROS, for him it's a little
more of a problem, it takes time, and time is money.
TeamCasa wrote:

You said a mouthful there, Richard. Now, here's a silly thing, 3M does
make a very good paper; the Micron series. I put that on my 6-hole 6"
RidgidROS, the paper loads like crazy. Same paper at the same speed on
the Rotex, 6" 9 holes, works great..and for a long time. Go figgur.
Norton is a very good quality product. A lot of automotive guys use
Norton. I use a lot of Klingspor 6"x6hole 180 grit on two PC ROS
sanders. There is no dust collection on those things, and I have tried
to retrofit an adaptor PC sells with mixed results. The room those work
in, has a serious recirculating filtration unit.

Throw it out. Sounds to me that HF products are mostly suspect? We don't
have them here in Kanuckistan yet, but I am 5 minutes from Port Huron
MI, and that is 45 mins north of Detroit... so I'm sure I can find one.
Hell, my sister is on her way from Olatha KS for the holidays, maybe I
should ask her to bring me some?..*G*

A guy I know, who does the same thing as I do, had a Fein sander crap
out on him one time. One phone call, and 4 hours later the sales rep had
dropped off his demo unit and picked up the faulty unit for repair.
That's another thing you get for the money.
AFAIK, Festool will go through similar lengths, but I have never heard
of a Festool product breaking down in my line of work. (Could be I don't
get out enough?) BTW, they make the coolest close-quarter drill... my
Milwaukee 1/2" close quarter drill is baffed. Not that it owes me any
money, that thing has driven tens of thousands of 2 1/2" chipboard
screws....mmm 13 years of use. With a few exceptions, all my stuff is
Milwaukee. I just love that 1 3/4 HP Bodygrip router. I put a 1/2 thick
Corian baseplate on it and with a 3/16 roundover bit, I clean up thise
edges on my countertops like wiping on stain, I just love that
thing...(2HP variable speed version coming to a tool cart near me...)
Am I a little extra talketive today? Oh yea... all caught up and winding
down till Jan 5... I get to party with my 3 daughters..YAY!
Out.

Good information sandman but I find the properties of wood and those of
solid surface counter tops to apparently be different. I never clean the
wood surface between grits and get magnifying glass good results. That said
however I use a premium 3M paper all the time.

Leon, I couldn't agree more. When working with wood, it usually is in
anticipation of a series of finishing steps. Surface prep for stain
alone requires a whole different approach than any I would be concerned
with in Solid Surface. I also don't concern myself with sanding steps
which set up for the next coat (for adhesion purposes, cohesion in
laquer). Since 1976, I guestimate that I have done all the doors and
end-panels for about 500 kitchens and many more library shelves etc etc.
Different woods, different schedules. Different stains, different
schedules etc. Catalyzed laquers, milk/washes, solid colours, shiny
finishes, matte finishes, high-tech 3 part acrylics, every job was
different.
One of my guys made me a hunter and his dog in intarsia. Hand buffed,
sanded, waxed, stroked, fondled, licked, kissed, polished. The finish
was immaculate. Jewelry grade. I have the highest respect for guys like
that. He wasn't in my spray-booth very long though... too picky...too
slow.
I semi-retired in Sept 2003. All I have left, business wise, is my solid
surface dept. It allows me to make plans to build a shop on my property
so I can go completely anal and make sawdust. Will my shop have a
DeVilbiss downdraft booth with HVLP guns and pot-fed laquer???
Not on your life. I want to make things that are hand buffed, sanded,
waxed, stroked, fondled, licked, kissed, polished. Like dashboards for
old Jaguars....yea...that's it... burl... *drools*

I couldn't imagine changing paper and NOT cleaning in between.
Doesn't make me a bad person *grins*

wrote:
[Excellent treatise on sanding snipped]
Rob, I sent you an email regarding this post earlier today. Did you
get it? If not, please email me at snipped-for-privacy@pobox.com so I can resend.
Thanks.
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net

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