Hate linking to ESPN, but the ends justify the means. Looks like we are headed to a 100 loss season. Because we're at the trough of our "wave of contention."

FTR - I don't mind so much that this is our strategy, it's probably a correct one. When you draw 2-7 off suit in poker, you don't stick around for the flop.

What I do mind is being told BEFORE the winter meetings that we are gonna lose big next year. Zero hope. Nada. Zilch.

Regardless of what you think of Shapiro, the real problem here is an owner who thinks that it's ok to try to compete every 4-5 years. I wish I had the luxury of accomplishing success ever 4-5 years. I'm sure my girlfriend would love it if I took 3-4 years off from trying. I'm sure my band would love it if we took 3-4 years off from trying. I'm sure my friends would love it if I took 3-4 years from trying. I'm sure my company would thrive if I took 3-4 years off from trying.

What a complete load of bullshit. I'm tired of it. And I'm not buying the MLB ticket this year or going back to C-town to catch some games either. I sent Shapiro a tweet to that effect and got no response. I guess it's 'cause he's in the that 3-4 year window where he doesn't try.

I guess we should all just ignore the fact that, even if a poor choice of words, he's right. Let's all pretend that virtually every one of us on this board doesnt understand what Shapiro is getting at here and agree 100% with his sentiment that baseball is more than just about winning each game.

I'm sure the reason that Tripods stands on that porch around 80 times a summer is because he expects that the Tribe will win each and every game and he considers it a waste of time otherwise.

Shapiro would be better off saying that he thinks we are World Series contenders right now, even if everyone, including himself, knows it's compete and utter bullshit.

"You should come to Progressive filed because this year we're going to WIN ALL TEH GAMESEZ!!!"

MS, the problem is that, if it's true that we're going to have cycles and windows, then the fact that this year is the bottom of a curve is unacceptable. That's the real issue.

This FO made a trade that pushed our window forward in time at least 1 year AND that trade was a dismal failure. The consequence of that is that we had about 1 full season of contention over a two season period. That horrible contention run didn't even result in a .500 plus season. And it cost us some of the most beloved Indians ever, including watching our former TWO CY YOUNG WINNERS pitching against each other in the WS. Lebron knifing us in the back was less humiliating.

For going through a horrible and humiliating teartown, we don't even get a .500+ season? And the best Shappie has is that winning isn't everything? It's not that he's wrong. It's just that it's just salt in the wounds coming from the man who engineered what was, whether it was his fault or not, one of the worst rebuilds in the history of baseball. Like GW telling us Mission Accomplished. It's just a horrible reminder of the wasted 5 years and the fact that it's going to get worse (again) before it gets better.

bac5665 wrote:MS, the problem is that, if it's true that we're going to have cycles and windows, then the fact that this year is the bottom of a curve is unacceptable. That's the real issue.

Failing to realize and accept the reality of a situation doesn't change the reality of that situation. If this is the bottom, then it't the bottom, and calling it unacceptable is meaningless.

Anyway, I'd rather have a guy in charge who can recognize and acknowledge what is in front of him and react in what he considers the best course for the long term success of his team.

Whether or not people AGREE with what is the best course for the team (and for the most part they DO NOT agree with Shapiro on much) is a completely different question entirely.

bac5665 wrote:This FO made a trade that pushed our window forward in time at least 1 year AND that trade was a dismal failure. The consequence of that is that we had about 1 full season of contention over a two season period. That horrible contention run didn't even result in a .500 plus season. And it cost us some of the most beloved Indians ever, including watching our former TWO CY YOUNG WINNERS pitching against each other in the WS. Lebron knifing us in the back was less humiliating (Ridiculous).

For going through a horrible and humiliating teartown (humiliating?), we don't even get a .500+ season? And the best Shappie has is that winning isn't everything? It's not that he's wrong. It's just that it's just salt in the wounds coming from the man who engineered what was, whether it was his fault or not, one of the worst rebuilds in the history of baseball. Like GW telling us Mission Accomplished. It's just a horrible reminder of the wasted 5 years and the fact that it's going to get worse (again) before it gets better.

Really? In the history of baseball?

I get what you're saying. But I think it's all besides the point of the question that was asked of Shapiro and the answer that he gave to that question.

You may be right that people are overreacting. That said, I haven't seen too many people that worked up by it. I'm much more upset at the situation than I am at the comments. I was just trying to explain why hearing that kind of comment from Shapiro might upset a lot of fans, fairly or not.

Believe it or not, I'm not all that anti-Shapiro. I honestly feel he's mostly had terrible luck. All of baseball thought that Santana and LaPorta were going to be great. It's just bad luck that all three of Ubaldo Carrasco and Masterson were bad and/or hurt during our window. And it's not Shapiro's fault that we have terrible owners.

But he is the face of the FO and, his fault or not, he takes the blame. And the reality, the one you point that we should acknowledge frankly, is that this rebuild was awful. Pirates level bad. We had an entire rebuild without one superstar, without one player that other teams have to legitimately fear. Not one player developed into anything more than solid. That's awful. Fair or not, Shapiro represents the face of that failure. So maybe he shouldn't be the one implying that those of us who are angry at how badly this rebuild turned out aren't real fans of baseball. That's all I'm saying.

I get what Shapiro is saying, too, and I even agree with it to an extent, but man, is he wishing he phrased it differently. (I think he's already admitted it came out wrong, but I can't find the link at the moment.) Coming to a baseball game is more than about seeing your team win, because even it you've got a good team, they're still going to lose somewhere in the vicinity of 60 games. But you can still soak up the atmosphere, and nothing beats that thrill of walking to your seat and seeing the field before you. Due to money crunches and small children (the money crunches primarily the fault OF the small children), it's probably been three years since I've been to an Indians game, and I miss it terribly.

But again, I get what Shapiro is saying. He tried to come off as "edgy" and it didn't work. The last thing the team's already-low PR needs is a perceived slam on the fans, particularly from the face of the front office, which "Joe Fan" blames for all the team's woes the past few years. Shapiro is largely right, but he looks very wrong.

He and Chris Perez may have more in common than either of them realized, after all. All he needs to do is tell some fan to "get the dick out of his mouth" and the transformation is complete.

Mark Shapiro has a singular talent for taking things that are (at their core) true, and somehow twisting them into comments that are neither helpful, worthwhile, or wise.

As Adverb notes, there's a distinct difference between going to the ballpark and knowing that your time might lose (and might even a have a good chance of losing) and going with the expectation that your team is not competitive. The first is just the nature of the game, the second is anti-marketing. It doesn't require some magical Theory of Cleveland to ascertain that attendance goes down when your team loses. That's just the nature of sports, and to wish it were otherwise is to think that Cleveland has a disadvantage that other cities don't have. It's an excuse for failure, as almost every team needs to rebuild from time to time.

The problem is that Shapiro has run out of ways to spin what this offseason, and upcoming season, are supposed to be about. Trying to sell on another rebuild is nonsense, given how they handled the last one(*). Also, the team is also not exceptionally young, its trade assets are not remarkably valuable, and, outside of Lindor (who is 3 years away, even if the Indians are fortunate), the prospects are not especially compelling.

(*) Of course, a rebuild after a failed rebuild isn't automatically doomed to failure. To take the easiest example, when Carter was traded and the Indians announced that they were rebuilding, the fan response was in the same form of "How can you rebuild, when you never actually built?" That one turned out OK. Of course, already having Thome and Joey B. in the system made things actually work. The lesson, as always: you can be brilliant at trading and getting good prospects for veterans, but it doesn't mean much without the base of talent from the farm system.

motherscratcher wrote:I'm sure the reason that Tripods stands on that porch around 80 times a summer is because he expects that the Tribe will win each and every game and he considers it a waste of time otherwise.

Does he pay for a field box to watch the same thing?

Sure, I'd take my family a few times, regardless of outcome. But I'm not buying season tickets. Hell, I won't buy the Extra Innings Tv package anymore because $179 is too much money to watch AAA baseball.

And I'm sure as hell not buying ad space or company sky boxes or funding promotions for 3K fans.

Regardless of truth, you tow the line and publicly say you expect a competitive team and you are excited about the new guy and you're currently exploring several deals to improve the team.

It is incredibly easy to sell excitement this time of year. Numbers guys can spin shit into silver this time of year. And yet somehow he managed to mess that up.

bac5665 wrote:MS, the problem is that, if it's true that we're going to have cycles and windows, then the fact that this year is the bottom of a curve is unacceptable. That's the real issue.

Failing to realize and accept the reality of a situation doesn't change the reality of that situation. If this is the bottom, then it't the bottom, and calling it unacceptable is meaningless.

Anyway, I'd rather have a guy in charge who can recognize and acknowledge what is in front of him and react in what he considers the best course for the long term success of his team.

Whether or not people AGREE with what is the best course for the team (and for the most part they DO NOT agree with Shapiro on much) is a completely different question entirely.

bac5665 wrote:This FO made a trade that pushed our window forward in time at least 1 year AND that trade was a dismal failure. The consequence of that is that we had about 1 full season of contention over a two season period. That horrible contention run didn't even result in a .500 plus season. And it cost us some of the most beloved Indians ever, including watching our former TWO CY YOUNG WINNERS pitching against each other in the WS. Lebron knifing us in the back was less humiliating (Ridiculous).

For going through a horrible and humiliating teartown (humiliating?), we don't even get a .500+ season? And the best Shappie has is that winning isn't everything? It's not that he's wrong. It's just that it's just salt in the wounds coming from the man who engineered what was, whether it was his fault or not, one of the worst rebuilds in the history of baseball. Like GW telling us Mission Accomplished. It's just a horrible reminder of the wasted 5 years and the fact that it's going to get worse (again) before it gets better.

Really? In the history of baseball?

I get what you're saying. But I think it's all besides the point of the question that was asked of Shapiro and the answer that he gave to that question.

Think y'all are discussing two separate things. I think most rational tribe fans agree with MoScratch; the team sucks, a rebuild is necessary, there's zero chance that any of the players in their primes (Santana, Droobs, Choo, Masterson) are going to be around for the next "window of contention".

However, Shapiro not expecting any backlash from enacting this plan is ridiculous; very similar to Savages, "Go root for buffalo" comments. Your fan base is angry because you completely screwed the pooch on this round of trades. Horribly. You got nothing of value from two Cy Young winners (and don't tell me Brantley is a "value" trade peice, he was considered at AAAA player who exceeded expectations modestly) and your two best minor league chips. You emptied the cupboard for a substandard product, and now we're forced to deal with the reprecussions of that.

To the older fans, it's apathy. To newer fans.....there's a lot of passiopn there, and its trending in the wrong direction. Going to be a ROUGH year.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.

Jumbo wrote:The problem is that Shapiro has run out of ways to spin what this offseason, and upcoming season, are supposed to be about. Trying to sell on another rebuild is nonsense, given how they handled the last one(*). Also, the team is also not exceptionally young, its trade assets are not remarkably valuable, and, outside of Lindor (who is 3 years away, even if the Indians are fortunate), the prospects are not especially compelling.

And that's exactly the point. We all KNOW that these things are true and it's the reality of the situation. Some dude asked Shapiro why he should bother getting tickets for next year. What is the expected response? That we are right on track and a mediocre LF away from postseason baseball? That you better get your tickets now because the Pennant Train leaves Progressive Station at the Beginning of April and its going to be a wonderful ride all summer? NO. Because that would be a bunch of bullshit. And we'd all know it was a bunch of bullshit. And he sure as shit knows that's a bunch of bullshit.

So he said what every fan here already knows and feels; that there's more to the experience of going to a baseball game. That if you are ONLY interested in going to see a team that has a great shot at the pennant and would consider it a waste of time and money otherwise, maybe you should spend your money elsewhere. That is a true and honest statement. But we all already knew that.

It doesn't mean that Shapiro isn't going to try to improve the team. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to win. It doesn't mean he's satisfied with the team's current state and could care less if they win or not. It doesn't mean any of those things because that would be stupid. And we all know that too.

motherscratcher wrote:I'm sure the reason that Tripods stands on that porch around 80 times a summer is because he expects that the Tribe will win each and every game and he considers it a waste of time otherwise.

Does he pay for a field box to watch the same thing?

What does this have to do with anything? It's completely beside the point.

Tripods goes to games because he loves the Tribe, but what's more than that, he loves baseball as well. What does the price of his ticket matter? He's there.

I feel bad for Shapiro. Here's a guy who has known all along that he and Antonetti have a daunting task year in and year out and he can't take it anymore. You can sense the frustration in his comments in print and hear the frustration in soundbytes. He has to constantly serve as the face of the front office and be the target of all the rotten fruit hurled at the stage by angry fans while the Dolans hide. He's the scapegoat because nobody else is there to dive onto the grenades. That has to take a lot out of a person. The more he does, the more he accepts accountability, the less understanding the fan base and the media have become. He can't do anything right and it's wearing him down.

Obviously, it comes with the job and it's the nature of the business. I see the point he's trying to convey. I tend to agree with him in the sense that if you're just going to bitch about everything, don't come. Like a local radio DJ said recently during his drive-time talk show, if somebody gets so upset with something I say that they stop listening, I never had them anyway. It's the same point Shapiro's trying to convey. If you're an Indians fan because you expect winning seasons every year, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Sports is a results business - there's no denying that. If the Indians put together a winning season and a playoff run, the bandwagoners will flock down to Progressive Field and pretend they've been loyal all along.

Everybody used to blast Shapiro for being a spinmaster. Now, he's honest about the team's chances and he's getting shit for that, too. The people who are upset about this are people who weren't going to go to games or support the team this season anyway.

While Shapiro can say what he wants about how what he said wasn't the right language or whatever, I know that's not the case. He's an incredibly bright man who is a good wordsmith and knows the nature of this business. He said EXACTLY what he meant to say. It's a loaded statement. It's a shot at fans who have unrealistic expectations and then go apeshit when the team falls short. It's a shot at ownership that we cannot expect to win because we cannot compete financially. It's an attempt to motivate the players to play up to and beyond their potential ("Hey, let's go prove everybody wrong!" mentality). It's asking the PR and promotions staffs to give more incentive to people to come down with ticket deals or better giveaways. Even with all that, my personal read between the lines, it's an expression of many layers of frustration. Very justifiable frustration.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

If Shapiro didn't know that what he was saying would further piss off an already pissed-off core fan base, he's an idiot. If he's an idiot, he shouldn't be running a major-league baseball team.

Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot than open your mouth and prove it beyond a doubt—not to mention pissing everyone off even more than they already are.

As a point of fact, winning ISN'T everything. We all know that's the way the Dolans think, because they've proven it year after year, but you still don't want to hear that from your club president, ever. Poor Bob DiBiasio; things just keep getting worser and worser for the club spinmeister.

jerryroche wrote:If Shapiro didn't know that what he was saying would further piss off an already pissed-off core fan base, he's an idiot. If he's an idiot, he shouldn't be running a major-league baseball team.

Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot than open your mouth and prove it beyond a doubt—not to mention pissing everyone off even more than they already are.

As a point of fact, winning ISN'T everything. We all know that's the way the Dolans think, because they've proven it year after year, but you still don't want to hear that from your club president, ever. Poor Bob DiBiasio; things just keep getting worser and worser for the club spinmeister.

Stop attributing a comment about a single event as being a comment about an overall philosophy. He isn't saying winning isn't everything for a season. He is saying it isn't everything about an individual game that you go to. If you will only go if they promise you a win...you will never go because nobody can do that. If you go for the other reasons, then there chance at winning wouldn't matter.

motherscratcher wrote:You wanna know how I know that outrage over these comments is ridiculous? Because PUP is in here defending Shapiro. I'll bet he had to run to the toilet and puke after that last post.

I like seeing Pup come to the dark side with you and I, MS. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

motherscratcher wrote:What does this have to do with anything? It's completely beside the point.

Tripods goes to games because he loves the Tribe, but what's more than that, he loves baseball as well. What does the price of his ticket matter? He's there.

No sir, that is the point. The guy needs to build up the organization as much as possible so people will care, and buy tickets. Season tickets preferably. People bring businesses and so on down the money highway.

If he comes out in November and says they are terrible, perhaps people won't buy tickets for Christmas presents. Or they will decide to spend their season ticket money on trips to Florida. Or businesses will figure their prospective clients and current employees would rather have tickets to Cedar Point.

And then he will come out in July and say they can't afford a trade because attendance is down. And people will care less.

motherscratcher wrote:What does this have to do with anything? It's completely beside the point.

Tripods goes to games because he loves the Tribe, but what's more than that, he loves baseball as well. What does the price of his ticket matter? He's there.

No sir, that is the point. The guy needs to build up the organization as much as possible so people will care, and buy tickets. Season tickets preferably. People bring businesses and so on down the money highway.

If he comes out in November and says they are terrible, perhaps people won't buy tickets for Christmas presents. Or they will decide to spend their season ticket money on trips to Florida. Or businesses will figure their prospective clients and current employees would rather have tickets to Cedar Point.

And then he will come out in July and say they can't afford a trade because attendance is down. And people will care less.

You dig?

Sure, Christmas presents. Gotcha. I'll go back and read it again to try to find the part where Shapiro said they are terrible.

I'm sure if he said a bunch of bullshit about how we are going to the World Series this year people would be lining up around the corner for their season tickets.

motherscratcher wrote:You wanna know how I know that outrage over these comments is ridiculous? Because PUP is in here defending Shapiro. I'll bet he had to run to the toilet and puke after that last post.

I like seeing Pup come to the dark side with you and I, MS. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

motherscratcher wrote:You wanna know how I know that outrage over these comments is ridiculous? Because PUP is in here defending Shapiro. I'll bet he had to run to the toilet and puke after that last post.

I like seeing Pup come to the dark side with you and I, MS. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

motherscratcher wrote:I'm sure if he said a bunch of bullshit about how we are going to the World Series this year people would be lining up around the corner for their season tickets.

No, they wouldn't. And it would be a lie. But I still want my HMFIC to publicly say they will be competitive.

Moral victories are for high school kids. Winning is everything for a professional team.

So how the fuck is he supposed to answer a question? Don't lie, but telling the truth means you are not trying?

Again, eliminate the thought that he was talking about a season and think of it as he is talking about 1 day in a season. If your expectation is they will win every time you go, then you are following the wrong sport. He is saying, no matter how good we are, if you will only have a good time at an Indians game if they win then you are going to be disappointed. If you go for the game and not the result, you will enjoy it more.

Erie Warrior wrote:No, they wouldn't. And it would be a lie. But I still want my HMFIC to publicly say they will be competitive.

Moral victories are for high school kids. Winning is everything for a professional team.

So how the fuck is he supposed to answer a question? Don't lie, but telling the truth means you are not trying?

Again, eliminate the thought that he was talking about a season and think of it as he is talking about 1 day in a season. If your expectation is they will win every time you go, then you are following the wrong sport. He is saying, no matter how good we are, if you will only have a good time at an Indians game if they win then you are going to be disappointed. If you go for the game and not the result, you will enjoy it more.

Three Pup posts defending Shapiro in one day? This is awesome. I'm bookmarking this thread.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

pup wrote:So how the fuck is he supposed to answer a question? Don't lie, but telling the truth means you are not trying?

Again, eliminate the thought that he was talking about a season and think of it as he is talking about 1 day in a season. If your expectation is they will win every time you go, then you are following the wrong sport.

But (apparently) the questioner was a season ticket holder. So, the issue isn't buying tickets to a couple games and seeing Ws or Ls. And clearly, if the guy has been a season ticket holder for a number of years, then he accepts the possibility of losing, both on a single game basis and during rebuilding/down years. It's also reasonable to expect ordinary baseball fans to want to see 5-10 games on the entertainment of baseball, even for a losing team. It's a lot harder to do so for an 81 game season tickets, especially when you can't even market "See the future! Support the kids!".

Shapiro could have used better words to explain something that is essentially true. Maybe he could've tried to reframe the guy into considering a partial-season package or something, where he could enjoy the game without the commitment of 81 tough games. I don't know, and frankly that's not the real issue: The indictment of the FO isn't that they have to try to market a losing team in the valley of the success cycle, it's that they hit the valley without ever really reaching a peak.

This year is about (sigh) the process (sigh). They have to get to the point where they can be a winner. Before the economics of MLB make them blow it up again.

I don't think you guys are far apart. Winning indeed is everything for a pro team- at least the promise of it coming. Haslam right now is doing what Shap should be doing. Haslam is saying his team is close to being playoff bound. Whether it is true or not, that is his expectation. It creates excitement, and oh-by-the-way sets the goal for the coach.

We've had threads on this before, but Shap's problem is part of the larger issue of that franchise thinking they are so far out ahead of everyone on metrics yet not seeing how backwards they are in PR. On many, many levels.

I always thought that when I retire, if I need stuff to do I'll always have the Tribe.If it's about the "process" that much more than winning, I can always glom onto the Captains or the Aeros for my pastime. Or some college. Lots of heart there... cheaper...

I think Len Barker is still coaching the Lake Erie College team. There ya go. You got nostalgia thrown in the mix, and a guy who loves Cleveland.

Hate linking to ESPN, but the ends justify the means. Looks like we are headed to a 100 loss season. Because we're at the trough of our "wave of contention."

FTR - I don't mind so much that this is our strategy, it's probably a correct one. When you draw 2-7 off suit in poker, you don't stick around for the flop.

What I do mind is being told BEFORE the winter meetings that we are gonna lose big next year. Zero hope. Nada. Zilch.

Regardless of what you think of Shapiro, the real problem here is an owner who thinks that it's ok to try to compete every 4-5 years. I wish I had the luxury of accomplishing success ever 4-5 years. I'm sure my girlfriend would love it if I took 3-4 years off from trying. I'm sure my band would love it if we took 3-4 years off from trying. I'm sure my friends would love it if I took 3-4 years from trying. I'm sure my company would thrive if I took 3-4 years off from trying.

What a complete load of bullshit. I'm tired of it. And I'm not buying the MLB ticket this year or going back to C-town to catch some games either. I sent Shapiro a tweet to that effect and got no response. I guess it's 'cause he's in the that 3-4 year window where he doesn't try.

Edit: Yeah...I'll prolly buy the MLB ticket...I just can't help it.

Why didn't you suggest we might like it if you took 3-4 years off from posting?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Hate linking to ESPN, but the ends justify the means. Looks like we are headed to a 100 loss season. Because we're at the trough of our "wave of contention."

FTR - I don't mind so much that this is our strategy, it's probably a correct one. When you draw 2-7 off suit in poker, you don't stick around for the flop.

What I do mind is being told BEFORE the winter meetings that we are gonna lose big next year. Zero hope. Nada. Zilch.

Regardless of what you think of Shapiro, the real problem here is an owner who thinks that it's ok to try to compete every 4-5 years. I wish I had the luxury of accomplishing success ever 4-5 years. I'm sure my girlfriend would love it if I took 3-4 years off from trying. I'm sure my band would love it if we took 3-4 years off from trying. I'm sure my friends would love it if I took 3-4 years from trying. I'm sure my company would thrive if I took 3-4 years off from trying.

What a complete load of bullshit. I'm tired of it. And I'm not buying the MLB ticket this year or going back to C-town to catch some games either. I sent Shapiro a tweet to that effect and got no response. I guess it's 'cause he's in the that 3-4 year window where he doesn't try.

Edit: Yeah...I'll prolly buy the MLB ticket...I just can't help it.

Why didn't you suggest we might like it if you took 3-4 years off from posting?

Nobody likes a quitter. That was my point. Q.E.D.

/Besides, this place needs pointless idiots like me around. I stir the pot (and smoke it too!)

We all know what he meant, the whole front office can still go pound salt. I love the Indians and they've been a big part of my life but I'm not spending any more significant time and/or money on a subpar product that accepts being subpar year in and year out. There are better things to do and there's also other baseball to watch that isn't a glorified exhibition game by May 15. The A's struggled from 2007 through 2011 (and were still on par with our dramatic 2011-2012 contention window) and were in a LOT worse shape than us financially. I didn't hear Beane out there hedging to cover up his past failures. He fixed the problem and won quickly.

The Indians couldn't have botched the last five years any worse, all of the principals are still in place, and we're just told to deal with it. No thanks. They screwed up the traditional young talent rebuilding plan with a horrible trade (that was horrible when it happened), and they also refuse to spend money for any kind of quick rebuild. So what am I supposed to rally around here? That Omar Minaya comes out of retirement, takes over another league-owned team, and gives us a ransom? I think I've gone to around 90 games the past 3 seasons and it will be a big fat zero next year. I can appreciate the majesty of baseball on a summer night elsewhere where I don't have to give my money to a shoestring operation with no real desire to improve the team. The fact that he needs to mention the inherent positives of attending any baseball game tells you everything you need to know. Honest failure and regrouping is one thing but it's systematic at this point. The executives are proven incompetents and the owners don't care. Why should I?

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

The fact is that the last rebuild failed as badly as it could have. That part is fact.

The problem is that only the Ubaldo deal really looks bad. Every other move was more or less hailed by the experts. We got the best prospects we could have, according to all of the scouts. And even the Ubaldo deal was defensible. After all, we all wanted aggression from this organization and we got it. It could have been handled differently for sure, but we all asked for aggressive support of a winning club and we got it.

My point is this; which one of you was sure Santana would be a dud? Which one of you was sure that LaPorta would be a dud? Which one of you was sure that Sizemore was done after '08? I can't in good conscious call any of that the fault of this organization. We were snakebit the last two years. And our can't miss trade acquisitions all missed. I don't know what to do with that.

This rebuild is pretty hard to lay at the feet of the FO. Can't miss prospects missed and our all star players were injured or regressed. Shit luck. I don't have any faith left either, but man, I just don't know what we could have done differently.

bac5665 wrote:This rebuild is pretty hard to lay at the feet of the FO. Can't miss prospects missed and our all star players were injured or regressed. Shit luck. I don't have any faith left either, but man, I just don't know what we could have done differently.

Teams like the Indians have to rebuild through the draft. For at least five or six years running, the Tribe's drafts pretty much sucked. You can lay that at the feet of the FO.

bac5665 wrote:The fact is that the last rebuild failed as badly as it could have. That part is fact.

The problem is that only the Ubaldo deal really looks bad. Every other move was more or less hailed by the experts. We got the best prospects we could have, according to all of the scouts. And even the Ubaldo deal was defensible. After all, we all wanted aggression from this organization and we got it. It could have been handled differently for sure, but we all asked for aggressive support of a winning club and we got it.

My point is this; which one of you was sure Santana would be a dud? Which one of you was sure that LaPorta would be a dud? Which one of you was sure that Sizemore was done after '08? I can't in good conscious call any of that the fault of this organization. We were snakebit the last two years. And our can't miss trade acquisitions all missed. I don't know what to do with that.

This rebuild is pretty hard to lay at the feet of the FO. Can't miss prospects missed and our all star players were injured or regressed. Shit luck. I don't have any faith left either, but man, I just don't know what we could have done differently.

I'll come out in defense of this post before someone inevitably shits all over it.

bac5665 wrote:My point is this; which one of you was sure Santana would be a dud?

I'll admit that Santana is a frustrating player at times, but to call him a dud is absurd.

Santana has been meh for the last two years. He's a career sub .250 player and he isn't getting above average HRs. For someone supposed to be among the elite catching prospects, if not the best prospect at his position, that's a dud. It's certainly a dud for a 1st baseman.

bac5665 wrote:My point is this; which one of you was sure Santana would be a dud?

I'll admit that Santana is a frustrating player at times, but to call him a dud is absurd.

Santana has been meh for the last two years. He's a career sub .250 player and he isn't getting above average HRs. For someone supposed to be among the elite catching prospects, if not the best prospect at his position, that's a dud. It's certainly a dud for a 1st baseman.

He's been worth over 10 wins in 2.5 seasons. A .794 OPS for a catcher is really, really good. His career OPS when playing 1B is .863 (under 300 AB). In over 1200 at bats, he has struck out just 38 more times than he's walked.

Oh, yeah, and he had major knee surgery during his rookie year.

Santana's second half of 2012: .281/.389/.498/.887. Sign he's truly morphing into a great hitter? We'll see.

But to call him a dud is just ludicrous.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

bac5665 wrote:My point is this; which one of you was sure Santana would be a dud?

I'll admit that Santana is a frustrating player at times, but to call him a dud is absurd.

Santana has been meh for the last two years. He's a career sub .250 player and he isn't getting above average HRs. For someone supposed to be among the elite catching prospects, if not the best prospect at his position, that's a dud. It's certainly a dud for a 1st baseman.

He's been worth over 10 wins in 2.5 seasons. A .794 OPS for a catcher is really, really good. His career OPS when playing 1B is .863 (under 300 AB). In over 1200 at bats, he has struck out just 38 more times than he's walked.

Oh, yeah, and he had major knee surgery during his rookie year.

Santana's second half of 2012: .281/.389/.498/.887. Sign he's truly morphing into a great hitter? We'll see.

But to call him a dud is just ludicrous.

If you only care about BAV, he's a dud.

Everything else suggest's he's been elite at his position the last two years....... some might have questions over the guys mental space - you could make a strong case that natural talent is over-coming his lack of effort.... but, like you said "dud" is ludicrous.

Everything else suggest's he's been elite at his position the last two years....... some might have questions over the guys mental space - you could make a strong case that natural talent is over-coming his lack of effort.... but, like you said "dud" is ludicrous.

He's also only 340 games into his career and missed two months of key development time as a rookie.

No, he's not Buster Posey. But he's easily a top ten offensive catcher.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe