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Topic: 11 Tim. 3:13 (Read 4460 times)

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Who is Paul directing his words to?

And here also 2Ti 4:3 for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing, 2Ti 4:4 and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Now this is where I personally believe there is writing and warnings about these times - seems to have perhaps started in Paul's times, and beginning unto now ["waxing worse and worse"]?

As you talked in that other post about the current state of religion, with its institutionalization, denominational requirements, etc. Starting in Paul's time, all the way through the Dark Ages (Roman "church") with the "hijacking" of Christianity - that was apparently a real mess - with its results still prevalent today in almost all "churches".

I like how Gary Amirault has described this current age as being a mixture of truth and error, as its doctrines/beliefs are a jumble of Law and grace.

It started way before Paul, Jesus knew it had been going on for a while. Paul is talking to the "church" in Timothy. I reasonthat it was not possible that he was talking to people outside of the church, there was no reason to. With an honest eye just look at the "church" today, the lucre and the divisions, alone should make one ashamed.

Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mat_23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Mat_23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Mat_23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, Mat_24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Yes, I agree, in your original posted scrips from 2 Tim. it was to the "church". I can see where my saying "seems to have started in Paul's times" would not be clear. But I was just talking about the "church age" [the age of the nations - us, Gentiles] that Paul was apparently addressing - post-cross in the 2 Timothy scrips.

I agree, Jesus was also talking about "religious problems" before that, to the Jewish nation, the scribes and pharisees that were in control of the temple worship. He identified in vs. 27 who He was talking to there; "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees".. They also had major problems. They crucified the Savior.

I guess falling away is man's nature, without God's intervention. Seems there's been falling away of some sort or another since the book of Genesis. If there was only 2 people on earth, 1 of them would probably be "falling away". Paul seemed to be saying it would continue throughout the "church age", getting worse and worse. Seems to me Christianity as whole is not in too good of shape today.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Who is Paul directing his words to?

And here also 2Ti 4:3 for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing, 2Ti 4:4 and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.

At some point (so as not to derail) once your original question has been satisfactorily answered, what do you think we'll see in this age according to Paul's words, micah? Same as now? Better, worse?

As long as the Christian religion [and others] continues to use the Bible as a book of history, a book of literal understanding, and understood and discerned by the logic and common sense of man, I reason this verse is very much as a truth today as it was with Paul and Jesus.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

The way I reason Paul was talking most of the time to the church; and when Jesus spoke of the problems that existed He was speaking to the religious leaders, they were the ones with the desire to control for their own greed. Is that any different today?

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

I think about this. It seems to me there's also a wide-spread blindness. Even most "good-hearted" believers I know - who love the Lord the very best they know how - still are caught up in the web of orthodoxy with its high level of error.

I was talking to a dear Christian brother that I've known somewhat casually for years, having the occasion to tell him about some of the changes God has made in my life; that I don't care for institutionalized religion, etc. He was talking about going to "church" or not, and he said, "so you think what we did here today is enough" (as far as fellowship)"? I said yes, if we're truly BEING the church, ministering to each other, etc. as we need to be.

He said, "but Christ died for the church". I said yes, the people - not a building. It's just an example. I can't judge this fellow, because I still have my own blindnesses and I was pretty much right there with him in that mainstream religion for a LONG time.

So the blindness, how God allows it and uses it, is sometimes a little puzzling for me. You can flip channels and see the religious hucksters and religious confusion. But those aren't all "evil" people out there, so it's a little mind numbing sometimes..

"So the blindness, how God allows it and uses it, is sometimes a little puzzling for me. You can flip channels and see the religious hucksters and religious confusion. But those aren't all "evil" people out there, so it's a little mind numbing sometimes.."

No, but it is a great multitude that follow such. I know the blindness you speak of is from the Lord and for His purpose.We need to understand that Jesus spoke in parables, and even the disciples did not understand what Jesus said until they were converted. Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God/Heaven, just what was that?

Mat 15:14 let them alone, guides they are--blind of blind; and if blind may guide blind, both into a ditch shall fall.' Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, `For judgment I to this world did come, that those not seeing may see, and those seeing may become blind.' Joh 9:40 And those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him, `Are we also blind?' Joh 9:41 Jesus said to them, `If ye were blind, ye were not having had sin, but now ye say--We see, therefore doth your sin remain.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Some believe we've "turned the corner", the great falling away has already occured, and things are just going to get better from here. It might be interesting to see their take on this.

Compared to what?Today about 1/6th of the world population is Christian.Take for example the times of Moses. Some Jews and the rest of the world had a pagan religion. Jews were much less that 1/6th of the world population.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Some believe we've "turned the corner", the great falling away has already occured, and things are just going to get better from here. It might be interesting to see their take on this.

Compared to what?Today about 1/6th of the world population is Christian.Take for example the times of Moses. Some Jews and the rest of the world had a pagan religion. Jews were much less that 1/6th of the world population.

I agree, compared to what?

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

2 Thes 2:1-3 is about falling away from the faith in Jesus.Trends rarely move in a straight line. Even strong upward trends usually retrace a bit. So there is always a falling away if you are looking for one.Should we look at percentages of absolute numbers?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Yes you are right divorce from adultery, that is exactly the point, a falling away is adultery and probably divorce.

WW you seem to be an extremely intelligent person and I hope a friend, I admire how you dig, search and inform about the many things some would not even look for. And you have said you are an atheist, well I would like to meet more atheists of your cut. Any way want I want to say I say in love nothing more. Sometimes common sense and logic mixed with intelligence can be more harm than good when the Lord is at work. I leave you with these two verses and I hope you receive them with a good heart.

1Co 3:19 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it hath been written, `Who is taking the wise in their craftiness;' Isa 55:8 For not My thoughts are your thoughts, Nor your ways My ways, --an affirmation of Jehovah,

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Yes you are right divorce from adultery, that is exactly the point, a falling away is adultery and probably divorce.

Depends a bit on your defenition of adultary. If it includes "moving away from Jesus" then I agree. If it's just the regular meaning (sex) then I disagree. For me falling away is moving away from Christianity. Becoming atheist or muslim. Perhaps even just a little less faith.But divorce also tells me it's not just about Christians. There is a difference between being friends with someone or being married to someone.I think not all Christians are married with Jesus. Some marry and some are just good friends that are invited to the wedding feast.

A great falling away happend between 30-70AD. 40's-50's I think. According to historical writings many Jews and Romans converted to Christianity when Jesus was resurrected. The Jews thought the finally "found" their Messiah. But when Jesus' didn't literally crush their enemies as the Messiah should do (in their view) they fell away because they simply no longer believed Jesus was the Messiah.That was the first falling away. Fits right with the view of Revelation being completed 70AD

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1Co 3:19 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it hath been written, `Who is taking the wise in their craftiness;'

Is Bible study with a carnal mind the wisdom of the world? Or is it for example building the tower of Babel and assuming that makes you god?

But His ways are in the Bible. Jesus was teaching the OT/thoughts. So imo that means in no way that verse means thinking/studying/reasoning is a bad thing.

The Bereans tested/discussed the Scriptures daily. That was good. But still it was human reasoning.I think those verses are mainly about ungodly things.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

"Is Bible study with a carnal mind the wisdom of the world? Or is it for example building the tower of Babel and assuming that makes you god?" WW

I had a carnal mind and I read the Bible. Now I'm told that the Word of God is food, I felt much better each time I read(ate) the Bible I felt better and I became more at ease. No, the tower of Babel is the church, orthodox religion, all the sects and denominations that keep not the "unity of the Spirit." Eph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;

"But His ways are in the Bible. Jesus was teaching the OT/thoughts. So imo that means in no way that verse means thinking/studying/reasoning is a bad thing."

Yes His ways are in the Bible, through out, but unless He opens your mind to the understanding of the spirit, it is just a thinking/studying/ and human reasoning.

No, it is not a bad thing, it just may take the Father a little longer to reach you [probably His plan anyway] so you will begin to listen.

"But still it was human reasoning." WW

Yes, and it is that very reasoning that will not allow you see. Human reasoning is the carnal mind.......and that is enmity to God.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

That's your view. Not saying you are wrong. It's just that it can "prove" the falling away was any date you desire. Give me your birth date and I'll dig up some view it started at that date

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Yes His ways are in the Bible, through out, but unless He opens your mind to the understanding of the spirit, it is just a thinking/studying/ and human reasoning.

No, it is not a bad thing, it just may take the Father a little longer to reach you [probably His plan anyway] so you will begin to listen.

"But still it was human reasoning." WW

Yes, and it is that very reasoning that will not allow you see. Human reasoning is the carnal mind.......and that is enmity to God.

In that case owning a Bible is an act or rebelion against God.Reading the Bible is blaphemy and ultimate rejection of God. Atheists are the true people of God. They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.You can't have it both ways Micah.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?

They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.

This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?

I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.

That's your view. Not saying you are wrong. It's just that it can "prove" the falling away was any date you desire. Give me your birth date and I'll dig up some view it started at that date

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Yes His ways are in the Bible, through out, but unless He opens your mind to the understanding of the spirit, it is just a thinking/studying/ and human reasoning.

No, it is not a bad thing, it just may take the Father a little longer to reach you [probably His plan anyway] so you will begin to listen.

"But still it was human reasoning." WW

Yes, and it is that very reasoning that will not allow you see. Human reasoning is the carnal mind.......and that is enmity to God.

In that case owning a Bible is an act or rebelion against God.Reading the Bible is blaphemy and ultimate rejection of God. Atheists are the true people of God. They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.You can't have it both ways Micah.

I have no idea of what you said in your last paragraph?

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The falling away isn't just about people leaving God, The falling away brings a "revealing" to something that had been hidden. If we appy this literally to people falling away from God . . .what is that revealing?

The falling away reveals the son of perdition, the man of sin . . .which then tells me that this man of sin is concealed until "something" falls away to reveal who he is. For me, it's the veil of our minds.

2 Corinthians 313And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?

They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.

This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?

I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.

I think you're not seeing what WW is doing. He's just making a point to micah, trying to get him to look at what he said a little more closely/from a different angle.

Wait a sec WW. Atheists are the true Christians? Maybe this would be easier to swallow if you shared your take on what an atheist is?

They use no carnal reasoning about God. They just live their lives and patiently waits for God showing the way.

This one just baffles me to no end. Most of what you do is the very opposite on these boards. You use no carnal reasoning about God? How many endless discussions have there been on the boards where natural reasoning of one person wars against the natural reasoning of another over word definitions, commentaries or quotes from other men's writings in general? "That's" not carnal reasoning?

I'm just . . . speechless at the fact that "you're" the one saying this! If it was Taffy, Sheila or even Cardinal I'd understand, but, you've never been one that embraced things that went much beyond the written word.

I think you're not seeing what WW is doing. He's just making a point to micah, trying to get him to look at what he said a little more closely/from a different angle.