It seems to me that the only people prepared to live and die for their religion in Western society are adherents of the evil death cult of modernity/secular humanism. They die for their religion all the time. For example, suppose a member of this cult has cancer diagnosed as terminal by the establishment quack medical system. Suppose you could prove that a simple change in diet and some supplements would likely cure them. Since it is an article of faith of their religion that they must follow the medical system's advice they would reject your cure and obediently die as instructed - martyrs to their cause. Sacrificing their children is fine by them as well - in is common for females desperate to be mothers to be crying in the street outside abortion clinics after exercising "their right to choose". They passed a test of their faith. Similarly the idea that men should be arrested for DV, "spousal rape" and such. I don't know if anyone is prepared to die for these ideas, but mangina pigs are certainly prepared to destroy the future of their own civilization for them.

Do any other religions take themselves as seriously? It seems to me there are no real Christians any more. It is only this death cult that seems to capture people's zealotry. At some level, people really must want out of this world.

In my experience, the most religious people are the least moral. The worst example I can think of is a gf I had once. Half the time she was kneeling in prayer, and the other half she was kneeling to give me BJ's.

Cornfed wrote:
Do any other religions take themselves as seriously? It seems to me there are no real Christians any more. It is only this death cult that seems to capture people's zealotry. At some level, people really must want out of this world.

Truthfully, this pretty much explains Christianity in a nutshell: the world is going to end soon, and all the good people will end up in Heaven with God, and all the evil people, atheists, and non-believers will be cast in hell.

And, yes, I do believe this is what will happen in the real world as stated in the Book of Revelations. (I'm ready for all the abusive comments now calling me crazy and a fool for believing in all this...)

That's why Communism was so successful. It was the closest thing atheists had to religion. Communism failed because it was a secular movement that required spiritual sacrifice. Thankfully it did die and the modern liberals left over are no comparison. Occupy got nothing done. They're in power now, so they can't be revolutionary. They've even run out of anything new to contribute intellectually. That's why I'm so hopeful that over the next century a new Western culture will rise up. A more traditional one, although obviously not a mirror or continuation of the one liberals killed 50 years ago.

I have a new theory. Liberalism does lead to peace. I don't deny it anymore. So what could possibly be wrong with peace? The price is in human souls. Progessivism destroys tradition and it's gone so far that people hardly have anything to fight for. They have no values. When people have no values and nothing to fight for there is peace. However, this is utterly inhuman. Lacking values, people return to animalism and only care about sex. Yes, I'd condemn a lot here at Happier Abroad and the whole PUA movement for this. God is dead, so people worship sex and money and other forms of materialism. For many, especially men, this kind of existence isn't enough. They still seek higher goals to satisfy their super egos instead of just their ids. That's why school shootings occur. Young men seek meaning in life in a society that fails to provide it. This is the cost of freedom too. Toleration of all things means you care about nothing. A life of apathy that leads people to idolatry. Sex and money and materialism - Progressivism is really a regression into animalism. So I'll say it again. Liberalism leads to peace, but at the cost of a man's soul. This is what nihilism looks like.

Don't worry Cornfed. It's just up to young guys like myself and Tsar and I'm sure there are a whole bunch others to wait it out, raise families, keep our women in line and instruct sons. I don't expect to see the promised land. But if Liberalism is a death cult then it will collapse. Very soon I predict - within the next century. So I just gotta wait it out and there'll be a better world for my future son or grandson.

As for death, well like I said, Communism's gone. I don't see people dying for the cause so much anymore. I just see apathy. Liberalism is a pleasure culture. Decadent indulgence. Death is the burden of masculinity. It's a masculine virtue, but that hardly characterizes modern society. Think of men getting diagnosed with prostate cancer. How many men these days from the degenerate generations will go and have themselves chemically/surgically castrated just so they can live a little longer? My grandpa did that and he only lived another five years or so as a kind of walking corpse. I'd choose death over that As for abortions, that takes time away from a woman's individual time on earth. By having an abortion she can spend more time indulging herself. So really that's nothing to do with death, but with the woman clinging to her life and actually refusing to sacrifice herself to become a mother.

abcdavid01 wrote:For many, especially men, this kind of existence isn't enough. They still seek higher goals to satisfy their super egos instead of just their ids.

It isn't just about (super) ego. The key things missing in modern society are trust and respect.

It's just up to young guys like myself and Tsar and I'm sure there are a whole bunch others to wait it out, raise families, keep our women in line and instruct sons. I don't expect to see the promised land. But if Liberalism is a death cult then it will collapse. Very soon I predict - within the next century. So I just gotta wait it out and there'll be a better world for my future son or grandson.

I disagree. History shows that almost all empires collapse and never recover. At best, they are eventually conquered by some external civilizing force. But with modern culture being almost universal, where do you expect that external force to come from? The only exception to this rule was the Roman Empire which revived as Southern Europe. This only happened because Christians in the Roman Empire didn't just wait it out, but organized themselves into churches and proselytized. So the seed of the revival was planted during Rome's decay.

Last weekend I visited the Karaite synagogue in Daly City, CA. I plan to move there early next year and join the synagogue and put all of my effort into making that culture work. I don't believe in just waiting.

abcdavid01 wrote:I dunno man. Christ himself in the New Testament took on the Jews for being too materialistic. I know you're talking about Orthodox Jews, but that's only a small sect. Most Jews are just the worst kind of liberals. The kind that inspired Hitler. As for Islam, it has some good aspects, but it's not Western. That matters. I think there's hope yet in Christianity.

Jesus argued with the Pharisees who were the precursors of Rabbinic Judaism. I am joining the Karaites which is a different group, very small but they have the right attitude. They accept non-Jews in their synagogue and they say that all that concerns God is how well we follow his commandments, and it doesn't matter if one is Jewish or not. This is the exact opposite of what the Orthodox teach.

So abcdavid, are you planning to join the Christians? Do you believe that Jesus was born from a virgin and is the son of God? If not, you can never be Christian. But you can join the Karaites where no belief in miracles is required.

abcdavid01 wrote:For many, especially men, this kind of existence isn't enough. They still seek higher goals to satisfy their super egos instead of just their ids.

It isn't just about (super) ego. The key things missing in modern society are trust and respect.

It's just up to young guys like myself and Tsar and I'm sure there are a whole bunch others to wait it out, raise families, keep our women in line and instruct sons. I don't expect to see the promised land. But if Liberalism is a death cult then it will collapse. Very soon I predict - within the next century. So I just gotta wait it out and there'll be a better world for my future son or grandson.

I disagree. History shows that almost all empires collapse and never recover. At best, they are eventually conquered by some external civilizing force. But with modern culture being almost universal, where do you expect that external force to come from? The only exception to this rule was the Roman Empire which revived as Southern Europe. This only happened because Christians in the Roman Empire didn't just wait it out, but organized themselves into churches and proselytized. So the seed of the revival was planted during Rome's decay.

Last weekend I visited the Karaite synagogue in Daly City, CA. I plan to move there early next year and join the synagogue and put all of my effort into making that culture work. I don't believe in just waiting.

Okay, but we sure a hell aren't getting conquered by Muslims or Jews anytime soon. Western Europe by the Muslims maybe, which is what Breivik was all about, but not the U.S. You're not talking about culture though really. Joining a small sect like that, especially one that has no chance of ever being dominant anywhere, well I guess it's the monk's choice. I'd rather take the hero's path than be a monk though. I'm talking about the whole society or at least one large enough to encompass a country. My point is that eventually it will get so revolting there will be a Reaction. That's why I call myself a Reactionary. The New Testament says that even atheists know in their hearts the way to God. They know when they sin, so they don't even need to know written laws as long as they have shame to inform them. That's where revival comes in. Liberalism is so far off from human nature that there's bound to be a reaction. Naturam expellas furca, tamen usque recurret. You can drive nature out with a pitchfork, but she always comes back.

abcdavid01 wrote:I dunno man. Christ himself in the New Testament took on the Jews for being too materialistic. I know you're talking about Orthodox Jews, but that's only a small sect. Most Jews are just the worst kind of liberals. The kind that inspired Hitler. As for Islam, it has some good aspects, but it's not Western. That matters. I think there's hope yet in Christianity.

Jesus argued with the Pharisees who were the precursors of Rabbinic Judaism. I am joining the Karaites which is a different group, very small but they have the right attitude. They accept non-Jews in their synagogue and they say that all that concerns God is how well we follow his commandments, and it doesn't matter if one is Jewish or not. This is the exact opposite of what the Orthodox teach.

So abcdavid, are you planning to join the Christians? Do you believe that Jesus was born from a virgin and is the son of God? If not, you can never be Christian. But you can join the Karaites where no belief in miracles is required.

Right, and that's good about the Karaites, but the problem is that it's very small. I'm talking about salvation for the entire society. As for your second part, yeah, I'll probably go Christian. That's because it was the civilizing force in Europe. It's got a great track record behind it. But there we go with materialism again. My dad says the virtue of Judaism is that it isn't superstitious and doesn't believe in crazy miracles like the New Testament. Put another way this means it lacks the holy spirit. That's what Christ complained about the Pharisees. Materialism and caring only about laws. This kind of materialism is why Judaism wasn't as successful as Christianity.

To be superstitious is to be human. Humans differ from animals in that we have the capacity for abstract thought. Yet this capacity, known as reason, is imperfect. Humans are incapable for thinking 100% logically and instead are prone to falling back into irrationality. Even the most intelligent in society are this way at times. God of the gaps as it were. Because even the smartest men are irrational at times there can never be a true atheist. Never has been and never will be because if they were they wouldn't be human. They'd either be an animal, like liberals are trying to have, or they'd be a robot. They'd be like Spock and think only logically. It's entirely inescapable because even language implies religious belief. We don't speak in binary. So if you don't worship God you worship something else, but you can never escape worship. To worship is to be human. Nowadays there's just a lot of idolatry going on. So I'll take my irrational Christianity over worshipping a set of laws. Actually I learned a lot of this from that site you sent me, The Right Stuff. Really I can't thank you enough for directing me there.

Relating to religions I think part of the problem also lies in many creationist religions being very old, having passages that people find very easy to attack, histories that liberals use in their attacks (war, crusades), and some people question the religion. I think that newer religions are able to attract more devote followers because they are both newer and they have less elements that can be attacked.

A religion revolving mostly around virtues with creationism could help get tradition and civilization back on track if it gained followers.

The way I see it is Catholicism was weakened by the Reformation, scandals, and being too open. Protestantism was relatively weakened because it was too individualistic and many branches had relatively open interpretations of the Bible. Many have even begun to go against the core elements of the Bible by allowing same-sex marriage. Many Christian religions allow divorce and remarriage, which isn't a good idea especially for women. There is too much forgiveness in Western Christianity and too much tolerance. It's as if Western Christianity has become liberalized. Orthodox Christianity didn't really have a Reformation, scandals, or other problems. Russia and Eastern Europe resisted much of the liberalization that occurred. I would say Orthodox Christianity is the only branch of Christianity that is the purest representation of Christianity.

When a religion becomes too concerned about gaining followers or keeping followers by whitewashing the religion, keeping quiet about major issues, or tolerating actions that violate the religion then they have rejected the religion for profit or influence.

I think that over time more religions will lose believers in the West. Western Christianity expanded it's followers through Crusades and killed many European pagans. Islam expanded it's followers through holy wars. I don't think that when a religion resorts to wars to expand or forcibly converting people that it strengthens the religion. Christianity in the West has also become heavily commercialized.

I believe in creationism but I think that a religion should first be about virtues. Just believing in a god or acting a certain way to get into heaven isn't good enough anymore. People need to know that acting a certain way will benefit them in this life too, and Western Christianity is one religion that is heavily failing in that regards. Many American and Western European Catholics and Protestants no longer take their religion seriously.

There is no better alternative like someone mentioned in another thread but I don't see any of the Judeo-Christian religions fully reviving. My best guess is they will lose followers until it levels off and they remain small religions. Secularism and humanism will win out in the West and other regions of the world.

This is why I think the West needs a religion centered mostly around virtues. The Eastern religions are primarily based around virtues and they have strong people. Virtues would be one of the most difficult things for anyone to attack. The only people who would attack a virtue would be liberals or feminists that would be most likely to attack the virtue chastity. Other than that there is no virtue that could be harshly attacked.

Also, in previous centuries many religions were controlled and outside contact with other religions or religious materials were limited. Today with the internet and religious books available on the internet there is more room to choose what you want to believe in.

Christianity has been too heavily damaged and it may be beyond the point of recovering to a point where it turns people around.

abcdavid01 wrote:Death is the burden of masculinity. It's a masculine virtue, but that hardly characterizes modern society. Think of men getting diagnosed with prostate cancer. How many men these days from the degenerate generations will go and have themselves chemically/surgically castrated just so they can live a little longer? My grandpa did that and he only lived another five years or so as a kind of walking corpse. I'd choose death over that As for abortions, that takes time away from a woman's individual time on earth. By having an abortion she can spend more time indulging herself. So really that's nothing to do with death, but with the woman clinging to her life and actually refusing to sacrifice herself to become a mother.

I would also choose death over being surgically altered if I ever got prostate cancer. I wouldn't want to be cut up and lose part of my body.

Last edited by Tsar on September 15th, 2013, 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

abcdavid01 wrote:Okay, but we sure a hell aren't getting conquered by Muslims or Jews anytime soon.

I agree that the West isn't getting conquered anytime soon. I also think the decay of the West will take a long time, maybe 200 years. It will be a long slow painful decline, like Rome.

Joining a small sect like that, especially one that has no chance of ever being dominant anywhere, well I guess it's the monk's choice. I'd rather take the hero's path than be a monk though. I'm talking about the whole society or at least one large enough to encompass a country.

Last post you were talking about just waiting and now you want to start a revolution. I will settle in the middle and join a community that I believe in. This definitely isn't the monk's path. I am not sacrificing, I am gaining a culture that will make me happy and will give me hope for my kids. As for "no chance of ever being dominant", given the timescale we are talking about, it is presumptuous to try to guess that far into the future. No sane Roman would have guessed that Jesus's little band would ever make any difference. So one should support the culture that one believes in and not try to play God and predict the future.

The New Testament says that even atheists know in their hearts the way to God. They know when they sin, so they don't even need to know written laws as long as they have shame to inform them.

Where does the New Testament say this? I don't think it does because this is clearly wrong. Western atheists have some sense of morality because it is still a fading part of Western culture. But other culture are completely without shame about many immoral things. Liberalism itself is a parasite that feeds on morality, so Liberalism will die when its host loses morality. What will be left is your basic third world mess, as described by Hobbes.

abcdavid01 wrote:To worship is to be human. Nowadays there's just a lot of idolatry going on. So I'll take my irrational Christianity over worshipping a set of laws. Actually I learned a lot of this from that site you sent me, The Right Stuff. Really I can't thank you enough for directing me there.

Would you be prepared to make a decision to kill or die over a doctrinal point of the Christian religion in the way that contemporary modernity death-cultists do and previous Christians did? Would you see the issue in such a way that you had no other viable choice, as they do/did? That would be the true test of whether you are a Christian.

abcdavid01 wrote:To worship is to be human. Nowadays there's just a lot of idolatry going on. So I'll take my irrational Christianity over worshipping a set of laws. Actually I learned a lot of this from that site you sent me, The Right Stuff. Really I can't thank you enough for directing me there.

Would you be prepared to make a decision to kill or die over a doctrinal point of the Christian religion in the way that contemporary modernity death-cultists do and previous Christians did? Would you see the issue in such a way that you had no other viable choice, as they do/did? That would be the true test of whether you are a Christian.

Well I'm hardly a Christian yet. Just a new convert. I'd still have to learn just what there is to kill or die for. But my point prior was that liberals don't die for their religion. Communists did, but liberals are pussies in comparison.

abcdavid01 wrote:As for your second part, yeah, I'll probably go Christian. That's because it was the civilizing force in Europe. It's got a great track record behind it.

I spent a lot of time studying Christianity to see if it has any hope. I spent about a year attending church and I read a lot of Christian history. I hope you do the same before reaching a conclusion. I laid out my conclusion here:

My dad says the virtue of Judaism is that it isn't superstitious and doesn't believe in crazy miracles like the New Testament. Put another way this means it lacks the holy spirit. That's what Christ complained about the Pharisees. Materialism and caring only about laws. This kind of materialism is why Judaism wasn't as successful as Christianity.

Materialism and legalism are different things. Please give me bible references for Jesus complaining that Pharisees don't believe in miracles. I don't remember this. The funny thing is that attending church didn't give me much insight into Jesus, but attending Orthodox synagogue did. Everything Jesus complained about the Pharisees mirrored my complaints about the Orthodox. Jesus makes a lot of sense as a Jew who disagreed with the Pharisees.

To be superstitious is to be human. Humans differ from animals in that we have the capacity for abstract thought. Yet this capacity, known as reason, is imperfect. Humans are incapable for thinking 100% logically and instead are prone to falling back into irrationality. Even the most intelligent in society are this way at times. God of the gaps as it were. Because even the smartest men are irrational at times there can never be a true atheist. Never has been and never will be because if they were they wouldn't be human. They'd either be an animal, like liberals are trying to have, or they'd be a robot. They'd be like Spock and think only logically. It's entirely inescapable because even language implies religious belief. We don't speak in binary. So if you don't worship God you worship something else, but you can never escape worship. To worship is to be human. Nowadays there's just a lot of idolatry going on. So I'll take my irrational Christianity over worshipping a set of laws. Actually I learned a lot of this from that site you sent me, The Right Stuff. Really I can't thank you enough for directing me there.

The more superstitious a culture is, the more messed up and less developed it is. This is why Moses commanded the Israelites not to "practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery, cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead" (Deuteronomy 18:10-11).

Christianity peaked when it felt compelled to follow the law (as proof of faith) and when it didn't focus on superstitions. If Christianity could return to some system like Calvin's that causes Christians to follow moral laws, then I would agree with you. But show me such a form of Christianity today? I can't find it.