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CRO and SEO: SEM Civil War

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civil war n. A state of hostility or conflict between elements within an organization.

Alright, so search marketing isn't really an "organization" but there is a certain hostility within its ranks. It's the war of the acronyms and funding. For years there have been articles, studies, and conference panels surrounding the debate of paid search versus organic search. That rivalry is rather ancient now considering the new kids on the block: CRO, SMO, and LPO. Who will win the war? Simple. If any one side wins the war in your organization, you are the loser.

What is CRO?

Did you recognize that term? It's the newest kid on the block. Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) is simply focusing on the conversion as the core metric when optimizing any particular page. I personally see this as an offshoot of Landing Page Optimization (LPO) and is sometimes seen as just another way of saying LPO. Most people see LPO/CRO as just for PPC campaigns, but anyone that assumes that is missing some great information they could be using in their SEO efforts.

There is a CRO Chat once a week on Twitter, run by Ion Interactive. Ion is a tool provider and their main product, LiveBall, is a system to allow marketers within your organization to develop and test landing pages without involving IT. It is a nice system set up and Ion's team members are champions for CRO. They invited me to participate this week, and the topic was SEO and CRO.

Some of questions posed were:

In what ways do #CRO and #SEO help and/or hurt each other?

When #CRO and #SEO hinder each other, how do you prioritize?

Who should drive your #CRO and #SEO strategy? One person, or multiple people working together?

Conversion Rate Optimization and SEO

My own answers seemed to center around one thing: CRO and SEO should never hurt or hinder each other.

SEOs focus is typically ranking for targeted queries in search engines. In the big battle of PPC vs SEO, remember that what is learned in PPC about what queries are most searched for and highest converting can be applied to SEO efforts. Just like PPC, the information gleaned from CRO testing should be applied to SEO optimization. This would ensure that the page the user lands on is focused on giving them the right information for conversion. Comparing these any two parts of online marketing and optimization is (forgive me) like comparing apple and oranges.

SEO is a long term, slow moving process based on rules that are constantly changing. SEO should always be a priority because it is the foundation of your website. Without an SEO optimized site, you will be constantly paying for traffic through offline marketing or paid online sources. You can't benefit from a site that no one can find!

Onsite SEO has two basic parts: code optimization, which has little to do with what the user sees, and internal structure which can only be aided by CRO. Internal structure is optimized for the search engines (SEs), but the SEs are looking for simple structure that users will respond to (read: what makes them convert). Search engines are becoming increasingly about the user experience on your site and therefore so should you.

Now, SEO (onsite and general link building) alone is not going to produce immediate results in most cases. It takes time, and much of the work in SEO is very backend code based. While a good SEO knows to balance focus on search engines and users, there are still plenty of sites out there that are missing the point that if the site isn't converting, the site/page optimization was a waste. Which led to this statement during CROchat:

Blanket statement I know, sorry. Please note that this is said for most businesses that see a conversion as a form, a sale, or a link. The conversion can be anything, as long as it's your business's goal. There are businesses in which traffic is their "conversion" because they make money off of impression based advertising (as pointed out to me by Sandra Niehaus).

I would assume then that their conversion would be time on site or bounce rate. There is always a metric to focus on when testing that can be used as the conversion. In fact, if you are using Google Analytics, there is an option to use Time on Site as a goal.

Links can even be a conversion. One topic that was discussed was Linkbait vs Conversion-bait content. If you are doing link bait, the conversion is to get a link, so these two are one and the same. A piece of link bait that drives traffic, but no links is a failed campaign. Links are an integral part of SEO, and the more organic the better. Traditional methods of linking are slowing becoming more discounted as they are exploited. This is why social media (SMO) and CRO are so important to SEO efforts. SEO can no longer stand on its own, and neither can any other part of online marketing. Everyone has to work together on a combined strategy for the best results.

Applying CRO to SEO

"Great" you say, "but how do I use CRO for SEO?"

Talking about holistic marketing is one thing, performing it is another. Not every searcher is created equal and the searcher that clicks on an ad is not always in the same frame of mind as the searcher that clicks on an ad. In the same breath, I will also say that not every user is created equal in terms of demographics and internet usage. Everything we do is based on what the metrics tell us on the whole.

So I'll give you a few examples that I hope will spur ideas for your own campaigns.

Scenario 1: Day Care and Education

You are running a test of landing pages in your PPC campaign. Testing has identified that users are searching for "day care" but want to see information about "early childhood education" because they want to give their child the best education possible while they are at daycare. How do you change your day care page on the site that is ranking #1 for "day care" in your area to include information about early childhood education without hurting your ranking?

CRO Solution for SEO: First remember that there are a few key parts of a page when it comes to onsite SEO. Title tag, content, and internal links. There is also the issue of inbound link anchor text. If you users are searching for "day care" - focus your link building efforts on that term as well as the title tag. Give them what they are looking for initially.

As for internal links, test it with your paid traffic. Do visitors click on a link called "day care" more than "early childhood education." I'd guess the former, but only your visitors can tell you. I'd keep those focused on "day care" since testing showed that searchers look for day cares that are focused on early childhood education.

The main change will be to the text. Change the text to focus on early childhood education but keep the balance with "day care." Give the page a headline based on education, but the title tag and internal links should stay focused on day care.

Example SEO ElementsSlug: /day-care.phpTitle: Day Care | Susan's Child Care CenterHeadline: Education Centered Day CareStarting Text: Day care should be more than just after school play time. At Susan's, we focus our time with your little one on early childhood education. While you are at work, your child will be working on a number of fun and interesting early childhood education objectives. Our trained and certified staff uses proven education curriculum targeted to your child's age group.Internal Link Anchor: "Day Care"External Link Anchor: "Day Care" and related

Scenario 2: Flash vs SEO

The Marketing team has done some testing on their own and has gotten approval from the executives to change the site into flash due to a higher conversion rate in paid search testing. As the company's SEO, you don't want them to ruin your work in the search engines. After doing a presentation that explains the issues with search engines and flash, and how much traffic comes in from the search engines, the VP of Marketing has tasked you with keeping your rankings and implementing the new design changes.

CRO Solution for SEO: First, breathe. Think this doesn't happen? It does all the time. This can work and make both sides happy.

Step 1: Ensure that all the pages on your site stay static. CRO may have proven that a flash splash element may convert better, but it's not a reason to have the site be one big flash file. Read more tips over at 10e20.

Step 2: Place the flash portion up top and integrate text below that. Flash can be used on a well SEO'd page, it just can't be the only element. Get a team of designers and coders together to balance the use of flash and static HTML. The users like the flash, so keep that above the fold. It can totally be the visual focus of the page.

Step 3: Utilize what you know about ranking factors to keep the page optimized. Keep the title tag the same as before, the slug should stay the same, and the text under the flash should be as good or better than it was before. Remember that some people won't be able to see flash, so the static HTML needs to be there for them.

Step 4: Keep link building as if there was no change. The addition of flash won't hurt what you've done here, and this is still the strongest component.

Pieces of a Puzzle

Nothing in this line of work is easy. Understanding the complexities of paid search, the different platforms, and all the levers you can pull is tough, not to mention expensive if you get it wrong. SEO is tough because we are not mind readers, understanding what users and search engines want is not easy. Getting it right on one page and getting it to rank is even harder. CRO/LPO is a big guessing game with huge rewards if you have the patience and know what to test. And social? There are scores of people that still don't know what to do over there.

My point is, the next time you rant about PPC getting a bigger budget, or the SEO person changing everything around on you, take a step back. Remember that you all have a different focus. But in the end you are on the same team. Take your online marketing partner out to lunch and see what it is they can do for you with their knowledge, and what you can share with them.

You can split the big bonus check later.

About katemorris —
Kate Morris is the Director of Client Strategies at Outspoken Media. She loves to teach through regular posting and speaking, and has been in the industry for over 11 years.

51 Comments

I think the problem in most agencies is the lack of understanding the difference between SEO and PPC in general.

Usually, PPC metrics revolve around a percentage of some sort (CTR, Conversion rate, etc.) and we can't really do that natually in the same manner.

For example, a natural search campaign usually revolves around gaining rankings for a set of keywords at first. We use this information as an on-going optimization to tweak words/content over time to ensure the best traffic possible to the site. The percentage of the traffic that converts will rise.

However, there will be a point when that conversion percentage begins to taper off due to the larger amounts of search phrases (usually unforseen long tail terms) that drive traffic. The actual conversion number continues to grow, but the traffic grows at too rapid a rate for the percentage to compare. The site begins to rank for almost every word even mentioned on the site (including a few verbs). My buddy calls this "superpostion." I think we will trademark that or something...unless Rhea says no. I'm too fragile.

This results in the perception that SEO isn't working like it should.

I have a very tenured client whos site brings the most traffic from a single word. Paired with other words, the traffic is relevant but in the singular sense it isn't the best term in the world. Because of the amount of traffic, the conversion percentage has dropped.

Thankfully educating the client has proved fruitful for me. I do wish we had negative keywords sometimes though, just to keep perceptions up.

I'm with you and have seen it time and time again. More traffic does not mean the same conversion rate. Even in paid. This is why testing a keyword finding a good ROI, and then maxing out the bid for top position and traffic isn't usually the best idea.

And even for my own site I wish I had negative keyword. My bounce rate is terrible due to creatively named posts like "10 Ways to Know if an SEO Girl Likes You." I get tons of traffic naturally on phrases like "how to know if a girl likes you." Needless to say my post is NOT what they are looking for exactly.

I always urge my clients to care more about conversion rate all the time. Conversion rate is the liver of your website if not the heart :)

And for the Flash vs. SEO, even though Google can read flash content, It's no excuse to have a flash-only site. You definitely should have some static content to substitute/support the flash content. I mean there is SwfObject for a reason :)

Awsome article Kate. I think i'll make sure my clients who fight me over their flash-only sites read this :)

Thanks! Yeah I have a slew of articles in my arsenal for when I client brings in the "flash only website" idea. Took me an hour one day to craft the perfect email to a client's web development team. I won the battle, but had to fix all of their mistakes.

Interesting! So just to make sure I understand what they are saying correctly, my flash on www.waikoloavacationrentals.com/halii-kai-rentals/ will not be read as anything, but the test on my video at the bottom of www.waikoloavacationrentals.com/halii-kai-rentals/information would be read?

Kate, it was great to have you participate in last week's #CROchat. Nice insights.

I want to shed a bit of personal perspective on the goals ion uses in Google Analytics and how we use them:

ion has three CRO-focused goals: lead (landing page form submission); inbound (escalation to hand raiser - contact me), and subscription (email newsletter). These have a paid-traffic emphasis and run across several hundred, long-tail landing pages (that are also SEO-friendly from a structural perspective).

Then we have several SEO-focused goals: 3+ pages viewed; 3+ minutes spent on the site; contact us form submission (ties into 'lead' above); RFP form submission (ties into 'inbound' above). These have organic traffic emphasis and apply primarily to our core site.

Our core site and orbiting landing pages are all SEO-friendly. This holistic approach doesn't put SEO against CRO, it puts them in alignment for a common goal -- more business -- over both the short term and the long term.

My strapline "more traffic, more conversions, more business" is, I think the alignment you talk about.

Of course you need to be more precise, "more (targeted) traffic, more (of the right types of) conversions, (equals) more business!"

But that simple mission statement has served me well for the last few years.

I think one of the problems is that internet marketing requires "helicopter vision" yet people often enter internet marketing from a specialism, and maybe struggle with the big picture for reasons of comprehension or bias?

Thanks for the post. CRO is the newest kid on the block and clients are definitely looking for this as the bottom line. The tough thing that I'm sure other SEOs are running into are clients who are expecting conversion when their site (and company) are brand new. A big mistake that I see are SEOs that jump right into a campaign without realizing that what a new company needs is often traditional marketing -- in the beginning, impressions are often the best way to increase brand awareness. A great conversion rate on a site with super low traffic isn't going to help business. CRO, then, is just part of a holistic marketing approach, which I think you communicated in your post!

As mentioned previously, if you aren't taking a holistic view to search marketing then you're going to get left behind.

Ultimately, there is no point in ranking number 1 in Google for a term if you are not getting any conversions (even if it's bringing in lots of traffic). At the start of any SEO campaign, a complete review should initially be done to ensure there are no underlying issues which may be obviously preventing conversions. This includes analysing statistical software (eg. Analytics), but it also involves using the website as a human.

Fixing any current problems should be done before driving in new traffic in my opinion, as it is just going to be wasted effort if done the other way round.

I don't personally put boundaries between SEO and CRO, as they should be something that are naturally done together. Both aspects will have to be constantly reviewed and improved (if being done rightly), so doing them both in conjunction with each other only makes sense.

This comes back to the 'holistic' view point, and SEO obviously has a different meaning to some agencies/individuals. Some are happy to get rankings, and not worry whether it is actually a traffic driver (or yielding conversions), whereas some will take the full approach to improving all aspects, reviewing, and improving once more.

I feel like this year is the year of optimizing for users, vs search engines. I tell clients all the time that a #1 ranking guarantees nothing but seeing your site #1...you don't make money from a #1 ranking.

Until recently - they just didn't listen and hawked those Google rankings until we were ready to scream. Suddenly the top 10 ranking was achieved, and they still weren't making any more money...

OMG - What to do????

This is such a timely article and so well written - I'm definitely bookmarking to share with co-workers, new hires, and clients!

Kate, this is spot on. I was lucky enough to catch the Ion Interactive #CROChat and even so, I am thankful for the rehash. Holistic marketing sounds so hokey but it is what separates the real pros from the pack.

If we were to draw a Venn diagram with SEO & PPC is separate circles, CRO would be the overlap.

For example, we found that our site was getting alot of quality traffic from Buffalo, NY. It turns out they all wanted to move to Charlotte! We used that data to target a PPC ad just for the Buffalo region and sent them to a landing page designed just for them.

When A/B testing the landing pages, we found a personalized approach worked best so we featured Realtors in the company from Buffalo talking about the reasons why they moved and the appeal of Charlotte. For a relocation appeal, property info was secondary, they wanted the big picture first. Answer: "why Charlotte?" First.

The A/B testing was so successful we incorporated some of the changes into our relocation guide website.

Perfect example! So you saw natural traffic from SEO and applied that to paid? *in heaven* That is exactly what should be done. Bravo! I love hearing living examples of this. It's funny what makes you smile as a search marketer. ;)

Could not agree more, I often argue the case that its not just about ranking its about the user experience. But then I ensure that people understand that there has to be a delicate balance between the both.

Also a FANTASTIC point about what people search for in SE's and what they are looking for. Its so very true and most of the time people just optimise their content according to the SE phrase without actually thinking about what the user whats to read or see.

One of the best blogs I have read since I have been a SEOMoz member :)

CRO is definitely kicking up a storm these days as people don't just want more traffic but more traffic that actually DO something.

Like someone said, CRO should actually be common sense but I think the problem lies with people who look for cheap SEO services and/or SEO consultants who don't educate the clients, after all we know with SEO we all know you get what you pay for. Then when they get the cheap SEO service, which might all include traffic for a period of time, they wonder why it's not equating to profit.

Going forward CRO is definitely something which should be preached more so everyone is more aware of it and practise it.

Hey Kate! You've answered so many of the Q&A's that I feel like I already know your "voice". Great to see a post from you.

I came from an outside sales career and although I've been involved in a variety of industries, the overarching goals were always the same; get more sales. What that "looked like" varied. Sometimes it meant more sales calls/wk, other times it meant asking existing customers for additional business.

So why do I bring that up? In my book, CRO and SEO are two pieces of the same pie. Ultimately they both function to create more sales.

Increased sales* is the bottom line for everything we do in SEM/SEO/CRO/LPO/PPC/etc. It's a mystery to me why it's so hard to get them to play nice with each other when they all share the common goal.

* - Increased sales can be interpreted to mean completion of whatever the conversion goal is.

People interested in this topic should check out the marketingshepa ROI Marketing Tour. I went a couple weeks ago and it was really top notch.

CRO on PPC pages should be done differently than CRO for SEO. PPC landing pages present the interesting ability of control your visitor's psychology as the come to your site presumably for the first time. SEO's should think about CRO on all pages pretty much bc thats where you get the most ROI to show how awesome a job you are doing. No reason to drive thousands of visitors to your linkbait page just to have 80% bounce and the rest eat bandwidth but no conversions.

Great post Kate! I think you are spot on when suggesting that different pieces of the puzzle have a great deal to learn from each other. At my first few jobs I remember holding onto my PPC wand tightly when criticized by the SEO side of things for taking up too much budget and moving too quickly. It became more of a battle between the two then a synergy of our successes. Ill never forget the "ah-ha" moment that happened when I realized I could data mine their log files for keyword discovery ;)

I guess my point is while we all have our goals to hit on an independent team basis, we also have much more important goals to hit at a company level. Leveraging the success of each team for company success is a challenge facing many SEM-focused companies. I really appreciate your insights and reminders in the above post :)

Great post, Kate! My only remark is that CRO is not so "brand new kid". Dozens of result-focused agencies were selling CRO and ROI-based SEO services since the first years of the century. Better CR to all of you, see you at the top!

Nice! I like the specific examples (i.e. day care) of on-page stuff you can do to balance things out. If I may be so bold, I posted a similar-yet-different-yet-highly-relevant article titled "What Are the Overlaps Between CRO and SEO?" at http://bit.ly/dljbPu

The more I see people talking about CRO the more I think that it's another one of these trendy new buzzwords. I think it's important that an SEO is a combination of the two things without needing to be given multiple (it doesn't make you any bigger.

In no way am I saying that being an expert in one or the other is wrong. I just think that a seasoned marketer should be a combination of both.

Conversion Rate Optimization can be defined in three dimensions.
Designers – Uses this method to optimize a client’s website with a main goal to maximize conversions.
Business Owners – Consider this as part of an online marketing strategy.
Visitors – Causes visitors to buy a product or service and/or promote an internet page to others.
SEO and CRO have three things in common: visitors, traffic generation, and results.

For any given offer there is a certain number of available conversions as a percentage of visitors.

Your landing page will never influence anyone in the non-conversion group, it will only influence those in the available-to-convert group. The goal of your landing page is to convert 100% of the available-to-convert group, however you can never go above 100% effeciency so there will always be a maximum conversion ratio (which is equal to the available conversions as a percentage of visitors). Your landing page itself can never raise the number of available conversions.

Unfortunately it's really difficult to determine your landing pages effeciency because you have to know the number of available conversions. The good news is there is a point where it no longer makes sense to try and optimize an offer because it's so effecient.

Likewise, I have been preaching the importance of CRO for years, this is nothing new. More common sense than anything. What's the value in ten gazillion visitors to your site who aren't converting unless your going for add impressions?

As stated above, Eisenberg's books are top notch and must reads.

The notion that "SEO is worthless if the conversion isn't happening" is completely true, but can't the same thing be said about PPC, banner adds, or any other form of paid web marketing?

Great info on the strategy of changing the design of a site and still being able to use flash.

Yes, you are correct in that PPC and all other forms of online marketing do need to be converting in some fashion. This particular topic of the CROChat was about SEO and CRO, which is why I focused on it.

I suggest you check out the work of the Eisenberg brothers who have been writing about it and consulting on it since the late nineties. They have also written several New York Times best sellers on the subject.

Then there's Avinash Kaushik from Google who has also been blogging and writing about it for a few years. There are a lot of others too.

And as for CRO being the same as LPO, nothing could be further from the truth. Again, read the work of the above.

And finally, the CRO crowd is now moving past CRO to develop more comprehensive business based metrics.

So if CRO is new to you, then you better start running like hell to catch up because you're already 12 years too late to the party, and the party is about to move on.

CRO has been around forever, yes. Far before the 90s even. Business has always pushed to have metrics focused to sales/conversions, even before the internet. Direct mail, trade shows, and other forms of "traditional" media have gone through a similar process for years in some companies, just a slower process.

It's just now taking real hold in the eyes of the search community as a whole. This article was just pushing the idea that anyone just focused on traffic or rankings is going to need to choose additional metrics to focus on as things change.

I would love to hear your ideas on how LPO is different from CRO. In my line of thinking, and how I operate LPO, it is about testing and modifying landing pages to perform optimally. To perform optimally, there needs to be a goal metric, the conversion. CRO is optimizing a page/site for conversions. So inherently I see them as the same thing, just different ways of saying it. But I am always open to other lines of thinking.

"This is why social media (SMO) and CRO are so important to SEO efforts. SEO can no longer stand on its own, and neither can any other part of online marketing. Everyone has to work together on a combined strategy for the best results."

-Amen, Hallelujah, Scream it from the mountains!

I think this is why I'm so glad they've decided in my company to do away with one off roles ie. SEO strategist, PPC specialist, Conversion Director, and integrate many aspects of each role into one online marketing strategy. It's good to see we're all headed in the right direction here!

I have been working on the acquisition side of things for awhile now, where conversion is extremely important, if there is one thing I can leave with the readers here is that SEO and CRO are not mutually exclusive. The forces that affect the two are very different, a drop or rise in rankings could negatively or positively affect sign ups and revenue, while the conversion rate may stay the same, while a drop or increase in CR, which could negatively or positively affect sales may not affect your rankings; a point I believe kate is trying to make here.

You should be able to use CR as a barometer of your channels' health, are all channels performing well? Is there a specific channel that appears to be struggling? CRO won't be able to give you the answers, but will be able to help you frame your questions correctly.

As you stated a couple of times, I think the key phrase is that they do not hurt eachother if done correctly.

In reality, many people that attempt to do sites on their own have a huge issue with this. They get so caught up in having certain words bolded, certain density in their title, etc that the SEO end up killing conversion.

It seems like there are two different types of thought. SEO architects who care about page rank and links vs. those creative developers who love flash and like pretty fonts.

In our industry it seems as if you are one or the other. Our brains don't seem to be able to comprehend or give value to the other half of optimization equation.

Who cares who coined the CRO phrase first! All we are trying to say is that we need both sides of the brain to be successful in the future. This is what is going to separate the good, bad, and ugly SEO companies soon.

I think the line "If any one side wins the war in your organization, you are the loser" sums it up in a perfect way. I can't seem to figure out why there are so many companies that only focus on one of the SEO elements, but fail to acknowledge that it goes much further beyond that.

I have to say of course that there are enough companies who do live up to that expectation, and this insight simply adds good value to that!