How many thousand years of recorded human history? How many space flights, world changing inventions, wars, and packet saddled electrons whizzing around on beams of light? And we're still all f*cked up about who has a hoo haw or a wang dang? Stick a fork in it. As a culture, we couldn't run a dry cleaners without it turning into a whine festival.

KhamanV:Which is actually an argument against patriarchy and the sort of thing actual feminists fight against - bullshiat gender roles based on bullshiat concepts perpetrated throughout bullshiat history, all there to help men not get that sort of doofus Chevy Chase stereotype bullshiat either. Crazy, I know.

Um, you can't have a word that only represents one gender, and then say it supports both genders.

sure haven't:KhamanV: Which is actually an argument against patriarchy and the sort of thing actual feminists fight against - bullshiat gender roles based on bullshiat concepts perpetrated throughout bullshiat history, all there to help men not get that sort of doofus Chevy Chase stereotype bullshiat either. Crazy, I know.

Um, you can't have a word that only represents one gender, and then say it supports both genders.

You can have a concept that embraces more than what the original signifier states. The fight for gay rights umbrellas trans/bi/pansexual/genderqueer, etc, although (yes, semantically problematically in this case) most people refer to it by the one term. What'sa matter? You don't want a bunch of girls and their girly word sticking up for men's rights, too?

sure haven't:KhamanV: Which is actually an argument against patriarchy and the sort of thing actual feminists fight against - bullshiat gender roles based on bullshiat concepts perpetrated throughout bullshiat history, all there to help men not get that sort of doofus Chevy Chase stereotype bullshiat either. Crazy, I know.

Um, you can't have a word that only represents one gender, and then say it supports both genders.

Car_Ramrod:Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.

The first section where it explains why we still use Fem and not 'humanist' or my favorite 'egalitarian' is also useful and relevant to this conversation. We're not on equal footing yet. Nobody wants to take anything away from someone else, for fark's sake, either.

KhamanV:Car_Ramrod:Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.

The first section where it explains why we still use Fem and not 'humanist' or my favorite 'egalitarian' is also useful and relevant to this conversation. We're not on equal footing yet. Nobody wants to take anything away from someone else, for fark's sake, either.

Truth. It's a great article overall. I just found that one specific part particularly relevant to the conversation.

Begoggle:KhamanV: Begoggle: Elegy: Elvis_Bogart: Maybe they couldn't any of the Women's Studies professors to shave for the photos.

Limited pool of availability and all of that....[i.imgur.com image 300x246]

How many men in the Men's Studies program?Oh that doesn't exist.So 8:0 that's an infinite ratio.

WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? Won't someone please think about the men?!

I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed, but my point wasn't to act like men are oppressed, my point was that this whiny college chick has created a bogus argument.

Fair enough from the point of statistics, but the point of overeager social justice would like to mention that many general course loads are men's studies. :P Sort of like the 'lol why no white history month?' Because we got the other 11 months, the bulk of entertainment television, the bulk of video games, movies, etc, etc, etc... it's wearying to see.

KhamanV:Begoggle: KhamanV: Begoggle: Elegy: Elvis_Bogart: Maybe they couldn't any of the Women's Studies professors to shave for the photos.

Limited pool of availability and all of that....[i.imgur.com image 300x246]

How many men in the Men's Studies program?Oh that doesn't exist.So 8:0 that's an infinite ratio.

WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? Won't someone please think about the men?!

I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed, but my point wasn't to act like men are oppressed, my point was that this whiny college chick has created a bogus argument.

Fair enough from the point of statistics, but the point of overeager social justice would like to mention that many general course loads are men's studies. :P Sort of like the 'lol why no white history month?' Because we got the other 11 months, the bulk of entertainment television, the bulk of video games, movies, etc, etc, etc... it's wearying to see.

Well start producing your own tv shows and write your own video games. You can do whatever you want. Just quit whining.

KhamanV:sure haven't: Car_Ramrod: based upon what I've read thus far, I'm sure this thread is going to be filled with the usual wonderful "ha ha, I'm joking about misogyny but I'm not really joking" that makes Fark such a wonderful place.

Should we make a thread about the "dumb white man" trope that persists in every. single. advertising. medium. on earth?

Cause that one never gets old.Oh look, the stupid incompetent child-man father cut the grass with that old rusted mower, now his eternally patien highly intelligent wife needs to take him to home depot to a sale only she heard about.

Which is actually an argument against patriarchy and the sort of thing actual feminists fight against.

WhippingBoy:Feminism has taught me that I should be ashamed to be a white man. I think I'm going to "accidentally" crush the ol' cobblers in some sort of industrial accident.

/I hate myself

You got the wrong lesson. You have nothing to be ashamed of; you got lucky - you're in a great place where many people are going to subconciously think better of you even if you do absolutely nothing about it. You're less likely to be passed over for jobs, you'll find it easier to get loans (nothing for free and you will have hardships! It's not a perfect system for everyone). People will look to you for ideals of how they picture Jesus and popular action heroes and what they'll put on video game covers. It's pretty cool, actually, and it's going to make a ton of shiat easier for you that you could in all likelihood never have to think about. It's totally under your radar because it's just how life is for you.

All anyone without that privilege - another color, another gender - wants is for you to take a moment when you see something go a different way for someone else when it wouldn't have for you and go "Whoa. That sorta sucks. That's unfair. I just want whoever that is to be treated like me."

Nobody wants to take the privilege of being a white dude away from you. They just want to make it a little easier being born a different way.

OK, Jesus, God, Allah are all actually women and all wealth and power should be controlled by and passed on to daughters in a matriarchal lineage that firmly controls every aspect of our society because only women are capable of dealing with absolute power and to deny this is to be a worthless, vile sexist pig. Now, can you go run the universe while I replace this hot water heater? Cause I could really use a shower and I clamped my thumb with this wrench and it hurts like hell.

KhamanV:WhippingBoy: Feminism has taught me that I should be ashamed to be a white man. I think I'm going to "accidentally" crush the ol' cobblers in some sort of industrial accident.

/I hate myself

You got the wrong lesson. You have nothing to be ashamed of; you got lucky - you're in a great place where many people are going to subconciously think better of you even if you do absolutely nothing about it. You're less likely to be passed over for jobs, you'll find it easier to get loans (nothing for free and you will have hardships! It's not a perfect system for everyone). People will look to you for ideals of how they picture Jesus and popular action heroes and what they'll put on video game covers. It's pretty cool, actually, and it's going to make a ton of shiat easier for you that you could in all likelihood never have to think about. It's totally under your radar because it's just how life is for you.

All anyone without that privilege - another color, another gender - wants is for you to take a moment when you see something go a different way for someone else when it wouldn't have for you and go "Whoa. That sorta sucks. That's unfair. I just want whoever that is to be treated like me."

Nobody wants to take the privilege of being a white dude away from you. They just want to make it a little easier being born a different way.

You're right, but you missed some of the following privileges:

A greater likelihood of ending up homeless.Much higher rate of suicide.Much greater likelihood that I'll be expected to actually fight in a war.More opportunities for intense physical jobs that will slowly destroy my body and send me to an early grave.Presumed guilty until proven innocent in domestic disputes.

In any case, eow exactly do you know what it's like to be me? Check your privilege, sister. Check your privilege.

KhamanV:WhippingBoy: Feminism has taught me that I should be ashamed to be a white man. I think I'm going to "accidentally" crush the ol' cobblers in some sort of industrial accident.

/I hate myself

You got the wrong lesson. You have nothing to be ashamed of; you got lucky - you're in a great place where many people are going to subconciously think better of you even if you do absolutely nothing about it. You're less likely to be passed over for jobs, you'll find it easier to get loans (nothing for free and you will have hardships! It's not a perfect system for everyone). People will look to you for ideals of how they picture Jesus and popular action heroes and what they'll put on video game covers. It's pretty cool, actually, and it's going to make a ton of shiat easier for you that you could in all likelihood never have to think about. It's totally under your radar because it's just how life is for you.

All anyone without that privilege - another color, another gender - wants is for you to take a moment when you see something go a different way for someone else when it wouldn't have for you and go "Whoa. That sorta sucks. That's unfair. I just want whoever that is to be treated like me."

Nobody wants to take the privilege of being a white dude away from you. They just want to make it a little easier being born a different way.

So if life for white men is so great, how come they have a suicide rate ten times that of black women?

rustypouch:So if life for white men is so great, how come they have a suicide rate ten times that of black women?

Obviously the guilt they feel for actively promoting the flawed, oppressive patriarchy becomes too much to bear. No, seriously, somewhere on some campus someplace somebody is saying this with a completely straight face.

KhamanV:Fair enough from the point of statistics, but the point of overeager social justice would like to mention that many general course loads are men's studies. :P Sort of like the 'lol why no white history month?' Because we got the other 11 months, the bulk of entertainment television, the bulk of video games, movies, etc, etc, etc... it's wearying to see.

You know what is even more wearying? The attitude that certain people don't have real problems and have everything handed to them because they are white men, like this:

KhamanV:you're in a great place where many people are going to subconciously think better of you even if you do absolutely nothing about it. You're less likely to be passed over for jobs, you'll find it easier to get loans (nothing for free and you will have hardships! It's not a perfect system for everyone). People will look to you for ideals of how they picture Jesus and popular action heroes and what they'll put on video game covers. It's pretty cool, actually, and it's going to make a ton of shiat easier for you that you could in all likelihood never have to think about. It's totally under your radar because it's just how life is for you.

The world is a cruel place to all of us. Maybe you should look at the percentages of poor and homeless people who are white before you trot out that shiat. You expect empathy from us while giving none in return.

So how about this: I will show people like you the same amount of empathy you show to people like me, and nothing less, so go fark yourself.

bunner:rustypouch: So if life for white men is so great, how come they have a suicide rate ten times that of black women?

Obviously the guilt they feel for actively promoting the flawed, oppressive patriarchy becomes too much to bear. No, seriously, somewhere on some campus someplace somebody is saying this with a completely straight face.

No no. A sheltered, white, middle-class 21 year old female gender studies student knows all about how the world works. Who are you to say otherwise?

Women outnumber men. If they are being oppressed in this day and age with numerical superiority... larger numbers being educated... laws tipped in their favour... all the extra advantages...

Well that just makes them a bunch of pussies.

Seriously... There are so many social injustices these days... and so many legitimate things to grieve about. Feminism and this feeling of being a victim of sexism in this day and age makes no sense. (For 99% of population that is).

umad:KhamanV: Fair enough from the point of statistics, but the point of overeager social justice would like to mention that many general course loads are men's studies. :P Sort of like the 'lol why no white history month?' Because we got the other 11 months, the bulk of entertainment television, the bulk of video games, movies, etc, etc, etc... it's wearying to see.

You know what is even more wearying? The attitude that certain people don't have real problems and have everything handed to them because they are white men, like this:

KhamanV: you're in a great place where many people are going to subconciously think better of you even if you do absolutely nothing about it. You're less likely to be passed over for jobs, you'll find it easier to get loans (nothing for free and you will have hardships! It's not a perfect system for everyone). People will look to you for ideals of how they picture Jesus and popular action heroes and what they'll put on video game covers. It's pretty cool, actually, and it's going to make a ton of shiat easier for you that you could in all likelihood never have to think about. It's totally under your radar because it's just how life is for you.

The world is a cruel place to all of us. Maybe you should look at the percentages of poor and homeless people who are white before you trot out that shiat. You expect empathy from us while giving none in return.

So how about this: I will show people like you the same amount of empathy you show to people like me, and nothing less, so go fark yourself.

1) Read what was written

2) "The life of every white male isn't perfect, so why should people be trying to remove the built-in societal biases that statistically favor white men over other groups?"

You might not benefit from patriarchy in any measurable way-on an individual level your life might actually be much, much worse than mine-but the fact is that certain disadvantages are absent from your experience (and, likely, invisible to you) because of your gender.

Maybe you're saying, "Hey, but my life wasn't fair either. I've had to struggle." I know it wasn't. I know you have. But that's not how fairness works. If you present fairness as the goal-that some day everything will be "fair" for everyone-you're slipping into an unrealistic fantasy land. Life already isn't fair, because of coincidence and circumstance and the DNA you were born with, and we all have to accept the hands we're dealt and live within that reality. But life doesn't have to be additionally unfair because of imposed systems of disenfranchisement that only affect certain groups. We can fight against that.

Feminism isn't about striving for individual fairness, on a life-by-life basis-it's about fighting against a systematic removal of opportunity that infringes on women's basic freedoms.

A greater likelihood of ending up homeless.Much higher rate of suicide.Much greater likelihood that I'll be expected to actually fight in a war.More opportunities for intense physical jobs that will slowly destroy my body and send me to an early grave.Presumed guilty until proven innocent in domestic disputes.

All things feminism are fighting to change and help - and you forgot that men's right's favorite, the disparity problems with alimony and assumptions made when assigning child custody. Because there are problems with all of those and many of them come from things men set up based on male/female stereotyped gender roles.So we agree they should be addressed and that men have been put upon by a patriarchal system on bullshiat stilts.

The rest of the responses to what I've said have been some of the most entertaining petulant cranking I've read in... hours. If you gents will excuse me, I have to go get some shiat done, including cooking dinner tonight. Which will be in fact done barefoot. In the kitchen. Because I don't like socks, as it happens.

KhamanV:sure haven't: KhamanV: Which is actually an argument against patriarchy and the sort of thing actual feminists fight against - bullshiat gender roles based on bullshiat concepts perpetrated throughout bullshiat history, all there to help men not get that sort of doofus Chevy Chase stereotype bullshiat either. Crazy, I know.

Um, you can't have a word that only represents one gender, and then say it supports both genders.

You can have a concept that embraces more than what the original signifier states. The fight for gay rights umbrellas trans/bi/pansexual/genderqueer, etc, although (yes, semantically problematically in this case) most people refer to it by the one term. What'sa matter? You don't want a bunch of girls and their girly word sticking up for men's rights, too?

WhippingBoy:You're right, but you missed some of the following privileges:

A greater likelihood of ending up homeless.Much higher rate of suicide.

Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of any gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.

Much greater likelihood that I'll be expected to actually fight in a war.

Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.

More opportunities for intense physical jobs that will slowly destroy my body and send me to an early grave.

Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.

Presumed guilty until proven innocent in domestic disputes.

Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.

In any case, eow exactly do you know what it's like to be me? Check your privilege, sister. Check your privilege.

CleanAndPure:Women outnumber men. If they are being oppressed in this day and age with numerical superiority... larger numbers being educated... laws tipped in their favour... all the extra advantages...

Well that just makes them a bunch of pussies.

Seriously... There are so many social injustices these days... and so many legitimate things to grieve about. Feminism and this feeling of being a victim of sexism in this day and age makes no sense. (For 99% of population that is).

Many of the "social injustices" in the world directly relate to being female. Someone constantly screaming "sexism" because they were hit on a bar isn't the same as demanding equal rights for both genders. Maybe you're just thinking about the U.S.

A greater likelihood of ending up homeless.Much higher rate of suicide.Much greater likelihood that I'll be expected to actually fight in a war.More opportunities for intense physical jobs that will slowly destroy my body and send me to an early grave.Presumed guilty until proven innocent in domestic disputes.

All things feminism are fighting to change and help - and you forgot that men's right's favorite, the disparity problems with alimony and assumptions made when assigning child custody. Because there are problems with all of those and many of them come from things men set up based on male/female stereotyped gender roles.So we agree they should be addressed and that men have been put upon by a patriarchal system on bullshiat stilts.

The rest of the responses to what I've said have been some of the most entertaining petulant cranking I've read in... hours. If you gents will excuse me, I have to go get some shiat done, including cooking dinner tonight. Which will be in fact done barefoot. In the kitchen. Because I don't like socks, as it happens.

If I Admit That 'Hating Men' Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?

If you "break down and admit" something, would you stop acting like it's insulting that you should even have to admit it and then somehow manage to immediately state, "well, it's all men's fault anyway" like something deeply meaningful just happened? So far, my best guess is "*tsk* whut UVER!"