Originally posted by seanm
Sigh... another one with reading comprehension problems. Try again.

Nice dodging the question.

Care to answer it now?

Originally posted by seanm
You forgot, it's up to 9/11 Truthers to demonstrate how it could have happened and how thousands of witnesses who had first-hand knowledge of
what happened haven't outed the government.

It's been explained how it could have happened, you just fail to recognize it.

You're providing no facts here.

So how about you help out your own story before you look like just another troll?

Originally posted by seanm
You must be new at this. In the six years since 9/11, not one person has presented any evidence that hasn't been refuted, much less presenting
the massive necessary to refute the overwhelming evidence against you. You must think rational people are idiots to try to foist that nonsense on
us.

Oh wow...

Yeah, I'm the one that's new at this

Please go do some research, dude. And don't only use websites with .gov on the end. Try others as well.

Originally posted by seanm
Indeed, you are a true 9/11 Denier. To make such a ridiculous claim in the face of thousands of non-government witnesses and investigations consisting
of predominately non-government structural engineers, physicists, chemists, architects, and forensic scientists means you don't have a clue what you
are talking about. You don't even understand that the evidence of what happened on 9/11 never came from the government to begin with. You don't even
know that the evidence, methodologies, and conclusions of the investigations like NIST are fully open to everyone and that any expert in the relevant
fields the world over could tear those investigations apart if there were reason to.

And you ignore all of the people that have spoken out against the official story including engineers, scientists, ex-military, and ex-CIA agents. You
ignore all evidence that doesn't suit you. You ignore all the concrete evidence, and only focus on basic elementary points and technicalities.

Please do research.

Originally posted by seanm
Demonstrate otherwise if you are so convinced. I gave you my examples.

I don't want your examples. I want proof. Give me proof.

Originally posted by seanm
40 years ago?!! Now, that is REAL planning ahead!

First of all, I said "what if". That means I'm speculating and asking...WHAT IF.

I knew you'd jump on that, because you have a weak argument. Like I said above, you're jumping on minor technicalities and putting words in
people's mouths. You know you have nothing.

Second of all, research the 1976 drills involving hijacked airplanes.

Originally posted by seanm
Ah, yes, speculate wildly and dispense with the necessity of presenting any evidence. Classic 9/11 denial.

Remind you of anyone? I recall someone speculating that it'd take thousands of people without any evidence to back it up.

Hypocrite.

Originally posted by seanm
You mean several hundred, right? Just a slip of your tongue, I guess.

Several hundred what? What are you even talking about? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Originally posted by seanm
Yup, I knew it. Classic 9/11 Denial. The same thing was said in 2002. You ARE a newbie at this.

The fact that you use the word "newbie" discredits you.

Originally posted by seanm
I LOVE no-planers. "It is definite that AA77 didn't hit the Pentagon but it's not fair to ask us what happened to it." Sorry, but I have heard
every excuse in the world to avoid your responsibility.

See, you're putting words in my mouth. Great way to debate, dude.

You can't even address the facts and what I'm saying. You have to venture into other things and say things I never said, and claim I said them.

Pathetic

Originally posted by seanm
There is no question at all that I am definitely focusing on the concrete by showing that 9/11 Truthers do not have a clue that they have no evidence
to back them up. I'm sorry, but the truth requires that we be really tough on you 9/11 Deniers.

I'm sorry that you live in a delusional fantasy world where your precious government never does anything wrong, but it's time to grow up, my friend.
You're not in elementary school anymore. You don't have those heart warming history lessons to deal with anymore. It's time to look at the facts no
matter how ugly they are.

Back on topic, there is no way that thousands or even hundreds of people would have been needed. How about this scenario...

Assume bin Laden and al-Qaeda were planning 9/11 with the knowledge of one operative inside the CIA. Maybe this CIA operative is even a Clinton
appointee who is pissed off that Bush stole the election from Gore, and now he knows he will be passed over for a promotion.

This CIA operative has a few key contacts in the FAA and maybe FBI. Maybe even a couple of people in the Senate.

In any case, strings are pulled so that the Able Danger data mining information is destroyed, and that conspirators within the FAA are working at key
posts on 9/11. E.g., Ben Sliney is put in charge of FAA operations on 9/11. This way the FAA makes sure no fighters are in a position to take out FL
11, FL 175, or FL 77. However, maybe the Air Force was able to overcome the FAA sabotage and take out FL 93.

Now suppose everything else on 9/11 goes down just like the official story says it did. The WTCs fall due to the plane crashes and the fires. The
Pentagon is really hit by a 757, and the plane at Shanksville is either just like the official story says, or is shot down on the command of people
not involved in the inside job.

So all told, 9/11 could have been an inside job with 19 arab terrorists being given the keys to the back door by a small handful of U.S. government
conspirators working in the FAA and CIA.

Originally posted by seanm
Actual witnesses to what happened would know if the government were lying about what they witnessed, wouldn't they?

Such as in which situations on 9/11?

Originally posted by seanm
I have no reason in the world to think so. I mean, why would independent investigators sign up to begin with? Of course, if you have evidence that any
of those many hundreds of investigators were made to shut up so successfully just like the 8,000 people at the Pentagon ULTIMA1 claims the government
threated, please don't keep us in suspense!

It doesn't take shutting up hundreds of investigators. All it takes is controlling the top ones.

Originally posted by seanm
False. That was debunked in 2002. Look it up. Do your homework.

Oh really?

Care to share a source?

Originally posted by seanm
The government keeps a lot of secrets. But as long as you cling to the illusion that thousands of non-government citizens who witnessed all aspects of
the events THEMSELVES and could contradict the government at any time but HAVEN'T; that they could be silenced when the government has no clue who
they may be, then you are in bigger trouble than I thought.

Unless you've personally spoken to every single witness to a 9/11 event, and gotten their testimony on tape, and it's recent, then really, you
can't claim they haven't spoken out.

The mainstream media wouldn't cover it. So it's easy for you to claim no one has said anything.

Also, I'm sure most of them are like you - they live in a delusional fantasy world where they think their government protects them and would never do
such a thing, so they wouldn't give what they saw even a second's worth of questioning.

Originally posted by seanm
False analogy. Most every European nation and the UN believed Saddam had the capability. DO read the UN documents in case you forgot. And it is
irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

It's not irrelevant and was an appropriate analogy. Just because you had a weak answer to it doesn't make it otherwise.

Having the capability and possessing said weapons are quite different.

Originally posted by seanm
Only you 9/11 Deniers call them "cave dwellers," The rest of us know them them as educated people with great financial resources at the time. Of
course, your 9/11 Denial Movement has to demean them to make their "official 9/11 conspiracy story" sound more plausible.

LMAO!!!

Oh wow, man. You sure are out there.

Originally posted by seanm
Your logic is indeed very poor. Which is why you are a 9/11 Denier.

That was a mature and logical response.

Shows your true intelligence.

Originally posted by seanm
It's actually been the proper term since 2002. Obviously, you really are a newbie at this since nobody outside of your "movement" uses the term
"Truth" Movement anymore.

DO catch up.

You seem obsessed with 2002. There has been new evidence since then. So DO catch up.

Also, nobody outside of children under the age of 10 uses the term "newbie" anymore.

Originally posted by seanm
How irrational does one have to be to entertain the thought that those who built the WTC towers from 1966-1971 had the foresight and the vision to
plant explosives that would be set off at the exact locations two aircraft not even on the drawing boards at the time would hit so precisely 30
years later?

Yep, because I said the average guy that was working on the construction was the one that planted it.

Well yeah, but the term government is vague. It was not the entire government. It could have been a small handful of people that let it happen. I
still think they needed sabotage within the FAA to pull it off. Otherwise FL 77 never makes it to the Pentagon.

Whatever the case, 9/11 was the result of SOMEBODY being really pissed off at the U.S. I personally think that with all the acrimony of the 2000
election, it was more likely that the people pissed off enough to take out the Pentagon and WTCs were probably enemies of Bush from inside the
government who were counting on a Gore win to climb the political ladder.

There is no way I think Bush and his cronies had the time or organizational skills necessary to plan something as big as not only carrying off 9/11,
but covering it up as well.

Heck, it could have been people in the CIA that were still pissed at Bush Sr. from when he was director of the agency. Maybe seeing W be handed the
Presidency was too much for them to handle, and they just hid key intelligence pointing to bin Laden and 9/11.

Makes me wish we had copies of all the documents Sandy Berger stuffed down his pants.

Well that would depend on what you think happened on 9/11. Do you think missiles were used on flight 11 & 175. If so who modified these aircraft?
You can not just simply slap three missiles on the bottom of a commercial aircraft. You would need a aerospace engineer to draw up blueprints,
determine how the missiles would change the flight characteristics of the aircraft, someone would need to fabricate all the necessary parts for the
installation and find a discrete location to install them. Then the aircraft would need a series of test flights. This kind of project would take
months and require a tremendous amount of people.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Why would it take thousands of people? If we are supposed to believe that 19 hijackers pulled off 9/11 why would it take thousands for it to be an
inside job.

Are 19 Saudi hijackers better then any of our special ops units?

Small groups of special ops units like the SEALS have pulled off large missions. So please explain to me why it would take thousands of people to make
9/11 an inside job?

Well that would depend on what you think happened on 9/11. Do you think missiles were used on flight 11 & 175. If so who modified these
aircraft? You can not just simply slap three missiles on the bottom of a commercial aircraft. You would need a aerospace engineer to draw up
blueprints, determine how the missiles would change the flight characteristics of the aircraft, someone would need to fabricate all the necessary
parts for the installation and find a discrete location to install them. Then the aircraft would need a series of test flights. This kind of project
would take months and require a tremendous amount of people.

1. Compartmentalization
2. Secrecy Oaths
3. Death threats to individual and family
4. bottom line: theres a lot of ways to keep people in the dark about what they are really doing and working on, or to keep them quiet. Could just
kill them. Simple as that. KIA. MIA abroad. whatever they fancy. Also, probably a small number of people knew what was really being done... just study
a little about how intell agencies work.

Originally posted by Unplugged
1. Compartmentalization
2. Secrecy Oaths
3. Death threats to individual and family
4. bottom line: theres a lot of ways to keep people in the dark about what they are really doing and working on, or to keep them quiet. Could just
kill them. Simple as that. KIA. MIA abroad. whatever they fancy. Also, probably a small number of people knew what was really being done... just study
a little about how intell agencies work.

Exactly. People somehow assume that just because they work at a place, they would know if something was going on. Thats ridiculous, specially inside
such huge agencies such as NASA, CIA, NSA, NRO etc.

The more you start looking into how the world really works, you realize we are in big trouble here. There are secrets being kept from mankind that
would be able to save the planet and set all of us free from the daily money chase. But since those secrets also would set us free from the control
and lies, they are not being released.

Short of alien intervention or some kind of large change in 2012 or similar, we will remain in this dark age forever, and society will only become
more and more controlled until we cant walk outside our apartments without a permission from the government...

Oh, and you mention 40 billion? Try 2.3 trillion that the Pentacon have lost in 2001 ALONE and dont know where it is.

Also check out this video with Steven Greer and what he found out when talking with the head of CIA etc:

The quote from Matrix comes into my mind:

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers,
carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our
enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the
system that they will fight to protect it."

Again, in answer to the OP's title question, I refer him to Michael Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon". Please read it if you would like a fully
considered answer to your question. He presents facts to the reader in the style of a court of law and asks you (the jury) to make your own
conclusions.

Originally posted by robert z
There is no way I think Bush and his cronies had the time or organizational skills necessary to plan something as big as not only carrying off 9/11,
but covering it up as well.

Yes, thats why i think a better sceme was to just let it happen. Not much planning.

Since NORAD was busy with excercises so they might have been slower to react then normal. Also having planes sent to monitor a Russian exxercise
pulled planes out of ther normal areas of patrol.

Then do you have a poor memory about WTC 7? Did you forget that the 9/11 Commission was not charged with investigating the collapses?

If you will stop insulting my intelligence and address the questions you keep evading, then you will have earned a modicum of respect.

1. Then please tell me what was the 9/11 commision was supposed to investigate, because they talk about the towers collapse.

"The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also known as the 9-11 Commission), an independent, bipartisan commission
created by congressional legislation and the signature of President George W. Bush in late 2002, is chartered to prepare a full and complete
account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the
attacks. The Commission is also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks."

2. Your a good one to talk about earning respect, when you insult people about providing evidence but you will not provide any.

I am still waiting for you to show any kind of evidence.

You have insulted everyone from the beginning. You insult everyone here by trying to shift the burden of prove from you to us. YOU have questions on
the table concerning YOUR claims which you have consistently evaded.

Stop insulting all of use, Ultima1, and address the questions you keep evading

Dodging? I was make an obvious point. To help you out, I'll repeat the post:

---
This is one of the dirty little secrets 9/11 Truthers are unable to address. Not only would it require a substantial number of people to be involved
in all of the pre-event activities required for a plan to be pulled off, e.g., planting explosives in the WTC towers, getting NORAD to "stand-down",
planning what to do with aircraft and their passengers that "didn't" hit the Pentagon, there would be a far greater number of people having no
prior knowledge of the plan who would have known that the explanations of what happened AFTER the events didn't jive with what they knew.

Add to that the many hundreds of non-government investigators and forensic scientists who would have had to either lie or be threatened to put out
what would have to be false reports from NIST, FEMA, and ASCE.

Necessarily, thousands of people would know of either the plan in advance and/ or that the the explanations post-event didn't jive with what they
personally knew.

The peculiar notion by 9/11 conspiracy buffs that such an event could be planned, executed successfully, and covered-up is far beyond absurd and
irrational.

That's why the 9/11 Truth Movement is known by its proper name: the The 9/11 Denial Movement.

---

Now, just how many people do you reckon would have to be both in on it OR know something was not right after the fact IF?

Please be specific with numbers. Don't exclude anyone, ok?

Originally posted by seanm
You forgot, it's up to 9/11 Truthers to demonstrate how it could have happened and how thousands of witnesses who had first-hand knowledge of
what happened haven't outed the government.

It's been explained how it could have happened, you just fail to recognize it.

Is that why you can't tell me? Gosh....

You're providing no facts here.

The burden of proof is on you. After all YOU believe it's a conspiracy, not me.

Originally posted by seanm
Actual witnesses to what happened would know if the government were lying about what they witnessed, wouldn't they?

Such as in which situations on 9/11?

Such as no one saw a 757 hit the Pentagon but saw something else or nothing at all - just as is claimed here by other 9/11 Deniers.

Originally posted by seanm
I have no reason in the world to think so. I mean, why would independent investigators sign up to begin with? Of course, if you have evidence that any
of those many hundreds of investigators were made to shut up so successfully just like the 8,000 people at the Pentagon ULTIMA1 claims the government
threated, please don't keep us in suspense!

It doesn't take shutting up hundreds of investigators. All it takes is controlling the top ones.

Amazing. So if NO person saw or retrieved 757 parts from the Pentagon, but retrieved something else or nothing at all, they wouldn't wonder
why the government, the airlines, the passengers' relatives were saying it was definitely AA 77?

And wouldn't talk about it? Thousands of people would just naturally keep quiet?

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