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Yeah, some of it is ice time, playing the best offensive situations, like in the offense zone against a tired opponent's lesser defense pairing on an icing call. Koivu as a top line center is sent over the boards for those kinds of plays. THAT is a Top-6 role NOT a Bottom-6 role.

There's a difference between producing offense from the top line and being able to produce offense from a Bottom-6 role. Drafting a career third liner with decent offense and history of going against the opponent's top lines when the team is trying to preserve a lead may be better than drafting a higher offensive guy with some checking ability (at least for Bottom-6 duty in an all-time context; as an extra skater, that'd be a different matter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord

...be careful not to get TOO excited about offensive/two-way players in your bottom six.

Indeed.

Plus, keep in mind:

One of the biggest criticisms of the Selke for the last decade at least is how it's become a way to honour offensive line players who check, Top-6 guys who are pretty responsible, rather than the best defensive forwards, many of whom are Bottom-6 role players. Just because a top line player has more Selke votes doesn't mean he is the better defensive player, especially when comparing Top-6 vs. Bottom-6 guys.

Yeah, some of it is ice time, playing the best offensive situations, like in the offense zone against a tired opponent's lesser defense pairing on an icing call. Koivu as a top line center is sent over the boards for those kinds of plays. THAT is a Top-6 role NOT a Bottom-6 role.

There's a difference between producing offense from the top line and being able to produce line from a Bottom-6 role. Drafting a career third liner with decent offense and history of going against the opponent's top lines when the team is trying to preserve a lead may be better than drafting a higher offensive guy with some checking ability (at least for Bottom-6 duty in an all-time context; as an extra skater, that'd be a different matter).

Indeed.

Plus, keep in mind:

One of the biggest criticisms of the Selke for the last decade at least is how it's become a way to honour offensive line players who check, Top-6 guys who are pretty responsible, rather than the best defensive forwards, many of whom are Bottom-6 role players. Just because a top line player has more Selke votes doesn't mean he is the better defensive player, especially when comparing Top-6 vs. Bottom-6 guys.

VI what are you talking about? This article is from '08 for christ's sake. I'm too lazy to dig through behindthenet right now but do you care to support those claims with anything?

Quote:

I like to pick award leaders as the season is progressing in order to see who the current leaders are and when the leader may change. Today I will look at the Selke Trophy for best defensive forward. I think the leader is Mikko Koivu of the Minnesota Wild. Mikko Koivu has been turned into a top checking centre in Jacques Lemaire’s defensive system in Minnesota. Koivu leads the Wild forwards in ice time with almost 22 minutes played per game and leads the team in scoring with 16 points. Koivu plays against one of the toughest qualities of opposition. In fact, only five forwards with considerable ice time (defined here as at least 10 games played and an average of 10 minutes per game of ice time at even strength) have faced a tougher quality of opposition than Koivu.

Those players are Andreas Nodl and xxx of the Philadelphia Flyers, Jay Pandolfo and John Madden of the New Jersey Devils and Eric Staal of the Carolina Hurricanes. Of those players, only Staal has a positive on/off ice +/- rating. Given the high quality of opposition faced by these players it is not a sign that the other players are playing poorly. It is merely a sign that the tough opposition they play against is scoring against them. It is quite likely that their opposition would score even more if they were lined up against weaker forwards. Koivu is played in more shutdown and short handed situations than Staal and plays a more defensive style. Therefore, Mikko Koivu is the leader for the Selke Trophy at this point.

Koivu has developed into a very good forward. He has very strong defensive value and is a capable scorer. He is capable of playing significant minutes in essentially all situations. He is very valuable to the Minnesota Wild. His role may be permanently increased if the Wild follow through on some rumors and trade Marian Gaborik. This would make Koivu the clear number one forward on the team. He has been played in that role this season during the games when Gaborik is out due to injury, but if it becomes a more permanent arrangement, it could lead to Koivu’s role on the Wild changing to a more offensive one. It is likely that if Koivu is not among the Selke candidates (or the winner) this season, it will because he is used in more of an offensive role the rest of the way through the season. However, as we saw with Pavel Datsyuk’s Selke win last season a player in an offensive role who plays solid defence can win the Selke Trophy.

Yes, that is right. I've been out and about, wondering when that email was going to come, but didn't think about the possibility of it just "defaulting" to my turn. Two picks coming soon.

Edit: Actually, not that soon. There is no way I am making these two picks without my spreadsheet, which was updated at work all week. Gotta sign in at work to get it. I will pick on time though, for sure.

Yes, that is right. I've been out and about, wondering when that email was going to come, but didn't think about the possibility of it just "defaulting" to my turn. Two picks coming soon.

Edit: Actually, not that soon. There is no way I am making these two picks without my spreadsheet, which was updated at work all week. Gotta sign in at work to get it. I will pick on time though, for sure.

By less than a minute, yeah. I posted at :06, on hedberg's clock, but I'm in South Korea and there's probably about a ten to fifteen second delay, so it's listed as :05, and it's amazing how you posted immediately after I did. You made it on your clock, after 3 hours, 59 minutes and an undetermined number of seconds.

1. on the MLD 2012 Thread I,
2. by using control-f to find,
3. by clicking pages 2,3,4... of the subforum and finding the MLD 2011 threads.
or
4. the new MLD 2012 Thread II, which is where the broken links were (sorry about that).

Regarding your frustrating attempt: I just fixed the links in the MLD 2012 Thread II.

It seems that cutting and pasting doesn't work for long links when they are abbreviated. I wanted to edit the post before cutting (which works), but the mods were quick at doing their job and locked the thread before I could, and I didn't realize that cutting without editing not only loses color and bolding but also long links.

Here's my two-bit suggestion to whomever GMs the Monarchs from here on out:

One could re-arrange the lines to have a great top-6 line, add another top-6 line through the draft, finish the very good third line, use Christian's strengths from the fourth line, bench Nedved except for when he feels like playing well, add two more top-4 defenseman and whammo, a great team imo!

There are so many good 4th liners out there; it's impossible to pick one now. Aw, heck, just give me Brent Seabrook, D, to complete my top-6. One of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL, clean but capable of huge hits, and a very underrated point producer.

Great pick. I'm concerned about you having enough players at this point in the draft.

1. on the MLD 2012 Thread I,
2. by using control-f to find,
3. by clicking pages 2,3,4... of the subforum and finding the MLD 2011 threads.
or
4. the new MLD 2012 Thread II, which is where the broken links were (sorry about that).

Regarding your frustrating attempt: I just fixed the links in the MLD 2012 Thread II.

It seems that cutting and pasting doesn't work for long links when they are abbreviated. I wanted to edit the post before cutting (which works), but the mods were quick at doing their job and locked the thread before I could, and I didn't realize that cutting without editing not only loses color and bolding but also long links.

its no problem VI , I wasnt trying to blame anyone but my drunken ass that was too lazy to search 4 pages deeper in the ATD subforums for the MLD2011 list.

I guess I'm fine with Fisher and Crossman.They're not out of place at all.I actually think Fisher is one of the best bottom 6 center left.