mydawgs wrote:My only point is it is our obligation as knowledgable, responsible pit owners to remove this negative view of game in a pit bull as it certainly is not associated with a fighting dog.

Mydawgs - In an earlier post, you said:

mydawgs wrote:game in a dog describes that animals determination at his GAME, a blood hound could be very GAME at seeking its target even through dangerous conditions.

So, what is the APBT's GAME, his SPECIALTY, like the Bloodhound has HIS specialty?

Carla

Thanks to Chris, I have discovered due to the pit bulls ability to follow through to task, my pit bulls specialty can be any thing I choose. Isn't that woderful! I have chosen to pursue agility for my female, my male will continue to specialize in warming my heart with his temperment and amazing ability to comfort me when I am stressed........

I think that is what so great about our dogs and their determination...they can do just about anything, you see we as owners of APBTs get to choose the game!!!!

mydawgs wrote:Thanks to Chris, I have discovered due to the pit bulls ability to follow through to task, my pit bulls specialty can be any thing I choose. Isn't that woderful!

I think that is what so great about our dogs and their determination...they can do just about anything, you see we as owners of APBTs get to choose the game!!!!

Exactly.

You dog may be brave, courageous, tenacious, determined have great endurance, try and try again for you, etc. Isn't that great? But you cannot call him "game".

Why this need to develop some test so we can call our dogs "game"? Aren't all these other things they are enough?

Carla

They are for me!! As long as I have owned these knot heads I have never known whether or not my dogs are game. Never cared. I know Munkee will gladly take a chunk out of any loose dog he sees if I let him. That don't make him game, that just makes him a pain in the butt. I am perfectly happy NOT knowing.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Your dog is an APBT, it may or may not be very game, who cares? The point is "game" is just a APBT characteristic, it is not good or bad it just is. I feel it is how you choose to utilize that characteristic in your dog that is important...my dog is a champion puller, a fantastic narcotics dog, the most decorated PP competitor......game is not good or bad, it is how you exploit game that is good or bad, a human activity.

Ok Mydawgs, this is what I thought as well. I guess what got me confused was reading how there is no other way to test game. I didn't seem right to me when I read it. Seems like THOSE pople where talking out of their glass holes.

Mind_doc wrote:Ok Mydawgs, this is what I thought as well. I guess what got me confused was reading how there is no other way to test game. I didn't seem right to me when I read it. Seems like THOSE pople where talking out of their glass holes.

There is NOT another way to test for gameNESS. You are not "testing GAME". If you don't even know how to use the word how can you expect to understand what it means???

As has already been said, GameNESS is the will to win or DIE trying. Agility isn't going to test that. SchH isn't going to test that. Weight pull isn't going to test that. So WHY do you people insist on the need to call these dogs GAME???? They are NOT. Even amongst real fighting dogs, only a SMALL percentage of those tested the hard way proved to be GAME. So if you are NOT testing for it in the traditional way, there is a very small likelihood that your dog IS game. Even out of 2 proven parents, very few of the pups in the litters would be proven game, so out of generations of NON tested parents, the chances are slim to none.

Yes GAMENESS is used in other breeds, with a different meaning. So is the word CUR - in some breeds it's the NAME of a breed, in our breed it's a dog that turns tail and runs from a fight, OR a dog of another breed. So just because the small terriers use the word GAME to mean a scrappy dog, doesn't mean that OUR breed uses it that way. If you are a hunter, GAME is something you EAT. It's really not that hard to comprehend that a word can mean different things in different breeds.

Again - GAMENESS = the will to WIN or DIE trying. No matter how driven my dog is, the agility course isn't going to KILL her, or is the weight pull cart, or the SchH helper = so these things do NOT test GAMENESS. Call it something else already!!!!!!

Again - GAMENESS = the will to WIN or DIE trying. No matter how driven my dog is, the agility course isn't going to KILL her, or is the weight pull cart, or the SchH helper = so these things do NOT test GAMENESS. Call it something else already!!!!!!

Game is the will to win or die trying AS MEASURED IN THE PIT!!!!!!! Let me draw an analogy------certain chemicals are EXTREMELY useful to assist in growing plants, those same chemicals are extremely DESTRUCTIVE when used in a bomb, same substance measured by different criteria, different outcomes...the simple fact is that chemical is just a substance until it is applied, you can't make that chemical something different because of it's application. If we stop associateing game with the pit, then there is no need to eliminate reference to this simple characteristic. It would be like having a lab that doesn't hunt, or a blood hound that doesn't scent because they are pets. You are right game has many dimensions and only the pit tests them ALL at the same time, so what, if there is not a pit then these dogs don't have this trait, rediculous. Stop biasing the word and don't worry about an illegal activity, stop wanting to label your dog......just call him what he is an APBT or an AmStaff or a Staffy Bull...game is there or not, it doesn't make any dog good or bad, it is people that are turning this into a negative thing. If you are trying to label your dog game by competeing agility, I agree you missed your mark....but if not then game means nothing to you or your dog, but you can't erase the fact that the characteristic exists and your dog may have it...maybe not. I would go a step further than you, I wouldn't rename it, I would just stop referencing it if is bothersome to you, it is not threatening to me nor folks that do use it.

Dogs exist in 'now' their concept of 'future' is 'I hope I get that treat soon'.

There are stories of dogs that have been shot when defending their owner, and are still dragging themselves toward the criminal while dieing. They still want to do their job and keep trying. Does that count as game? That dog is not thinking 'I'm in a lot of pain, I'll just lie here and hope that help comes', he is thinking 'I have a job to do, and I'm going to do it.'

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

This thread is huge and I just read a few posts but I'd like to say that other animals DO fight to the death, gamecocks (roosters) for instance and also Bettas (Siamese fighting fish). Those are two just off the top of my head.

mydawgs wrote:Game is the will to win or die trying AS MEASURED IN THE PIT!!!!!!!

Yes, it is my belief that this is correct. I have no desire to call my dog game if he is great at weight pull, agility, dragging down intruders or climbing trees. It just feels very odd to me.

mydawgs wrote: It would be like having a lab that doesn't hunt, or a blood hound that doesn't scent because they are pets.

Can you call that Lab a great hunting dog or the Bloodhound a great tracker if they are back-yard pets and have never seen a dead duck in the cold water or a dense forest on a hot day?

mydawgs wrote: You are right game has many dimensions and only the pit tests them ALL at the same time

That is correct. It is a very specific kind of test.

mydawgs wrote:so what, if there is not a pit then these dogs don't have this trait, rediculous.

They may or may not have the characteristic. But I'm not going to say the Bloodhound is a great tracker ("game" at HIS specialty), unless I see him prove it.

mydawgs wrote: Stop biasing the word and don't worry about an illegal activity

You are the one wanting to find something your dog can do so you can call him "game". Lora (and I) have no desire to use the term referencing our dogs, except maybe to say some of the ancestors were proven game, but that it is a immoral, illegal activity today. And that "leftovers" of that kind of gameness have filtered down to serve the dogs well today. And that they are not "game" in the traditional sense - for this breed.

mydawgs wrote: I would just stop referencing it if is bothersome to you, it is not threatening to me nor folks that do use it.

That's fine, we'll use it to honor what the dogs of yesterday did to be proven game.

Oh, and what was that they did? Oh, I know - didn't quit at weight-pulling and maybe got badly hurt engaging a boar...okay.

I don't mean to offend and I understand where you are coming from, mydawgs, but this is just the way I see it. I choose to limit the meaning of the term when it comes to this breed and to honor what kind of traits it DID give to us, which I believe are quite unique in themselves.

You are the one wanting to find something your dog can do so you can call him "game".

I don't WANT to call my dogs game, I simply state due to their breed they may be. I also state "game" is not good or bad, it is in how this trait is exploited by the human race that is good or bad.

It has been written and told to me by dog folks that "game" is multi dimensional, you know what is so wonderful about being multi dimensional, utility. Things that are of many dimensions have a greater value in terms of utility....soooooo, a dog that has the trait of game is capable of many things, I choose things to equal games.

For example in my line of work people tend to fall out into two primary catagories of thinkers: intuative and tactical

Take a guess which kind of thinker has more depth in terms of the things they can do, yes the intuative thinker. Not that the tactical thinker is any less valuble, they are just not as broad in terms of utility.

My whole issue is with the negativety associated with the term "game". It creates a barrier between folks that believe it is there and folks that don't, the pit bull breeds do not need that right now. Gameness is just a characteristic, nothing more. My desire to call my dogs anything, is "well behaved".........