Getting home with a dead hub

Hello hub enthusiasts. A friend put a challenge to me the other day. He asked, Suppose your hub fails somehow. Is there a way to lock the hub into a limp

Message 1 of 11
, Mar 1 9:52 AM

0 Attachment

Hello hub enthusiasts.

A friend put a challenge to me the other day. He asked, "Suppose your hub fails somehow. Is there a way to lock the hub into a 'limp home' mode?"

Gordon

Rich W

Gordon; Depends on the hub and the failure mode. I have seen a standard derailleur rear hub have a freewheel failure which caused no drive to the hub from the

Message 2 of 11
, Mar 1 10:11 AM

0 Attachment

Gordon;

Depends on the hub and the failure mode.

I have seen a standard derailleur rear hub have a freewheel failure which caused no drive to the hub from the crankset and chain render it unrideable. This is the commonest failure mode for a freewheel or freehub I believe.

Cable failure on an IGH will usually leave you in high or low gear, rideable but inconvenient. Internal hub failure can leave you with anything from a missing gear to total loss of drive or lockup so the failure mode can vary as far as effect on riding is concerned.

Rich Wood

--- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "gordonKoppang" <gordonkoppang@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello hub enthusiasts.
>
> A friend put a challenge to me the other day. He asked, "Suppose your hub fails somehow. Is there a way to lock the hub into a 'limp home' mode?"
>
> Gordon
>

Alex Wetmore

From: Rich W [astronut1001@yahoo.com] ... A Rohloff (which indexes inside the hub) can be shifted even with completely broken cables. You use an 8mm wrench

> Cable failure on an IGH will usually leave you in high or low gear, rideable but inconvenient.

A Rohloff (which indexes inside the hub) can be shifted even with completely broken cables. You use an 8mm wrench instead on the external mech Rohloff, or pull on the broken tails of cables on the internal mech one. Even on the internal mech one you could shift to your desired gear with a bit more work by pulling off the shifting drum.

A gear failure, if lucky, could get you stuck in 1:1, but will probably result in a hub that can't be ridden.

alex

Rick Paulos

A friend arrived at the top of the final climb, coasted over the top and her road bike rear freewheel refused to engage. Rolf wheel. Put the bike in the car

Message 4 of 11
, Mar 1 1:12 PM

0 Attachment

A friend arrived at the top of the final climb, coasted over the top
and her road bike rear freewheel refused to engage. Rolf wheel. Put
the bike in the car and drive home.

A friend puts a wet bike on the front of the bus rack in
winter. arrives at work and the single speed freewheel won't
engage. Find a warm place for it to thaw out, shoot some penetrating
oil in. good to go for the commute home.

A Ragbrai rider walks in for a repair. Spinergy bladed wheel won't
engage. I removed the freewheel, zero maintenance ever!. blasted
with wd-40 for a while and spun it around until it started working
again so he could continue on.

A brand new Trek tandem on Ragbrai. Bontrager high falultin design
freewheel skipping so bad as to be unridable. 2 rings of teeth that
face each other instead of the more typical pawls. Dismantled it for
a look. Nothing broken. Weak spring I guess. I told them it's a
warranty issue and take it back to the dealer. (great advice in the
middle of a vacation eh?) they hitched a ride back home eventually.

Raleigh Super course with a steel cotterless crank. The swag failed
between the spider and arm.

Oops, none of these were IGH hubs.

Oh wait. There was this one time.... I was riding a SA 3 speed and
shifted in to the neutral between 2nd and 3rd and wound up in the
emergency room. But that doesn't really address the original
question since the bike was rideable even though the rider could not.

Hubs just don't fail very often. Now, chains breaking, tires
flatting, frame or fork breaking, crashes, those I've seen so many more of.

At 01:21 PM 3/1/2011, you wrote:

>From: Rich W [astronut1001@...]
> > Cable failure on an IGH will usually leave you in high or low
> gear, rideable but inconvenient.
>
>A Rohloff (which indexes inside the hub) can be shifted even with
>completely broken cables. You use an 8mm wrench instead on the
>external mech Rohloff, or pull on the broken tails of cables on the
>internal mech one. Even on the internal mech one you could shift to
>your desired gear with a bit more work by pulling off the shifting drum.
>
>A gear failure, if lucky, could get you stuck in 1:1, but will
>probably result in a hub that can't be ridden.
>
>alex
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

David Chase

... Have they fixed that problem in more modern versions of SA 3 speed ? Because honestly, it does suck. My SRAM 9 locked up solid on the power input side, so

Message 5 of 11
, Mar 1 2:09 PM

0 Attachment

On 2011-03-01, at 4:12 PM, Rick Paulos wrote:

> Oh wait. There was this one time.... I was riding a SA 3 speed and
> shifted in to the neutral between 2nd and 3rd and wound up in the
> emergency room.

Have they fixed that problem in more modern versions of "SA 3 speed"?
Because honestly, it does suck.

My SRAM 9 locked up solid on the power input side, so I pushed it to the top of every hill/grade on the way home, and coasted on the downs.

David

wahooncx@yahoo.com

All AW hubs built since 1984 are NIG (no neutral) There are earlier ones that were built specifically for Columbia, but I don t recall the years. Aaron Sent

Message 6 of 11
, Mar 1 2:16 PM

0 Attachment

All AW hubs built since 1984 are NIG (no neutral) There are earlier ones that were built specifically for Columbia, but I don't recall the years.

Aaron

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: David Chase <dr2chase@...>

Sender: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 17:09:04 -0500

To: <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com>

ReplyTo: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Getting home with a dead hub

On 2011-03-01, at 4:12 PM, Rick Paulos wrote:
> Oh wait. There was this one time.... I was riding a SA 3 speed and
> shifted in to the neutral between 2nd and 3rd and wound up in the
> emergency room.

Have they fixed that problem in more modern versions of "SA 3 speed"?
Because honestly, it does suck.

My SRAM 9 locked up solid on the power input side, so I pushed it to the top of every hill/grade on the way home, and coasted on the downs.

David

Rick Paulos

Yeah, so like 8% of the 3-speed hubs out there are new enough. If SA hadn t built them so well they would not still be around causing problems. By 1984,

Message 7 of 11
, Mar 1 2:36 PM

0 Attachment

Yeah, so like 8% of the 3-speed hubs out there are new enough. If SA
hadn't built them so well they would not still be around causing problems.

By 1984, Raleigh stopped selling 3 speeds in the USA so there are so
few newer 3 speed bikes. Most of the domestic companies were using
shimano hubs then. Every body was buying 10 speeds!

I just am far more careful riding my older raleighs.

back to the op's question.

As an emergency measure to get back to town, you might try a
shoelace. You could weave it over the cog and thru the spokes as
close to the hub flange as you can get. The chain would force it
down into the cog's teeth but still be able to turn. Pedal easy,
okay you will anyhow because one shoe is ready to fall off. And don't coast.

Rick

At 04:16 PM 3/1/2011, you wrote:

>All AW hubs built since 1984 are NIG (no neutral) There are earlier
>ones that were built specifically for Columbia, but I don't recall the years.
>
>Aaron
>
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>----------
>From: David Chase <dr2chase@...>
>Sender: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 17:09:04 -0500
>To: <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com>
>ReplyTo: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Getting home with a dead hub
>
>
>
>
>On 2011-03-01, at 4:12 PM, Rick Paulos wrote:
> > Oh wait. There was this one time.... I was riding a SA 3 speed and
> > shifted in to the neutral between 2nd and 3rd and wound up in the
> > emergency room.
>
>Have they fixed that problem in more modern versions of "SA 3 speed"?
>Because honestly, it does suck.
>
>My SRAM 9 locked up solid on the power input side, so I pushed it to
>the top of every hill/grade on the way home, and coasted on the downs.
>
>David
>
>
>
>

Arthur Stout

Over the last year I ve put 2,000+ miles on both an AWC and an AW three speed hubs of very recent manufacture. I have two wheels I swap out on the same

Message 8 of 11
, Mar 1 10:06 PM

0 Attachment

Over the last year I've put 2,000+ miles on both an AWC and an AW three speed hubs of very recent manufacture. I have two wheels I swap out on the same frame. I don't know how so many people have problems with them slipping out of gear. Yeah, pre-1984 hubs have neutral, but thirty year old gear hubs are really NOT common in Louisiana, or in most of the South. (Really there are few vintage bicycles of any kind here compared to regions that were much richer, like New England which seems to positively swim in vintage bicycles.) When I wanted vintage Sturmey hubs for a project I had to surf Ebay from out of state.

I ride fairly aggressively on my 12 mile city work commutes and on longer weekend rides, and I've only slipped out of gear once. I switched North Roads for drop bars and a bar end shifter to get every bit
out of the bike. I sprint in the drops through a lot of places, so I'm not just cruising. On the only occasion when I popped into a different gear under load, it didn't come close to putting me in the hospital. Certainly embarrassing/inconvenient, but it didn't rise to actual danger. It could well be because I'm 5 foot 8 inches, 145Lbs and that's simply not enough weight to cause the hub to pop out of selected gear. I'm also more of a spinner than a masher. I know Jobst Brandt and many others had a bad experience with the old model, but the quality and design seems to be in a different place these days.

Yeah, so like 8% of the 3-speed hubs out there are new enough. If SA
hadn't built them so well they would not still be around causing problems.

By 1984, Raleigh stopped selling 3 speeds in the USA so there are so
few newer 3 speed bikes. Most of the domestic companies were using
shimano hubs then. Every body was buying 10 speeds!

I just am far more careful riding my older raleighs.

back to the op's question.

As an emergency measure to get back to town, you might try a
shoelace. You could weave it over the cog and thru the spokes as
close to the hub flange as you can get. The chain would force it
down into the cog's teeth but still be able to turn. Pedal easy,
okay you will anyhow because one shoe is ready to fall off. And don't coast.

Rick

At 04:16 PM 3/1/2011, you wrote:

>All AW hubs built since 1984 are NIG (no neutral) There are earlier
>ones that were built specifically for Columbia, but I don't recall the years.
>
>Aaron
>
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>----------
>From: David Chase <dr2chase@...>
>Sender: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 17:09:04 -0500
>To: <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com>
>ReplyTo: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Getting home with a dead hub
>
>
>
>
>On 2011-03-01, at 4:12 PM, Rick Paulos wrote:
> > Oh wait. There was this one time.... I was riding a SA 3 speed and
> > shifted in to the neutral between 2nd and 3rd and wound up in the
> > emergency room.
>
>Have they fixed that problem in more modern versions of "SA 3 speed"?
>Because honestly, it does suck.
>
>My SRAM 9 locked up solid on the power input side, so I pushed it to
>the top of every hill/grade on the way home, and coasted on the downs.
>
>David
>
>
>
>

Tom

... Not quite. All of the hubs built by SunRace Sturmey-Archer since they took over manufacture in 2001 are NIG (with the exception of the new fixed-gear S3X

Message 9 of 11
, Mar 2 5:01 AM

0 Attachment

> All AW hubs built since 1984 are NIG (no neutral)
> There are earlier ones that were built specifically
> for Columbia, but I don't recall the years.

Not quite.

All of the hubs built by SunRace Sturmey-Archer since they took over manufacture in 2001 are NIG (with the exception of the new fixed-gear S3X which does have a slender no gear position of the indicator.) These no-neutral designs include the freewheeling three speed family: the AW, SRF3, etc.

Sturmey designed the NIG three speed back in the early 1980s, and began to sell them to OEM Columbia in 1984, but continued to sell the regular AW to everyone else. I'm guessing any other OEM could have specified the NIG version, but as it was more expensive they did not.

AFAIK there is no special external marking on the Columbia NIG hubs. If not specified, I'd assume any 1984-1999 AW on ebay or that was offered at a swap meet without an indicator was the traditional design and had the neutral.

The earlier 3-speed X (1903-1920) and K (1921-1937) series of Sturmey hubs do not have a neutral.

Sturmey 4- and 5-speeds had a neutral up through 1990. Beginning with the 5 StAr in 1991 they went to an NIG design. The 7- and 8-speeds are all NIG.

Fichtel&Sachs three speeds had a neutral between 2nd & 3rd before 1976 (models 53, 55, 415, 515). In that year they introduced the always-in-gear 3111 which has become the SRAM T3.

The latest three-speed designs (Sturmey's RS-RF3 and SRAM's iMotion3) do not have a neutral position. AFAIK Shimano's three-speed hub designs (333, 3S, F, G, Nexus) have never had a neutral in between any gear positions.

PJ

Mike Wilson

I have had a few hub problems In 1972 on a ride through Nova Scotia the Regina freewheel on my Peugeot freewheeled both directions. The local fixit man, who

Message 10 of 11
, Mar 2 7:29 AM

0 Attachment

I have had a few hub problems

In 1972 on a ride through Nova Scotia the Regina freewheel on my Peugeot freewheeled both directions. The local fixit man, who had only seen derailleur bikes going by his shop, took it apart and replaced the springs with wire brush bristles. "All them dang balls. Enough to drive you up the wall" "Up the wall and over the roof". The latter response was from the farmer who took us to the shop, and put us up for the night. (The fixit man had a tractor crank on a simple lathe setup that he was straightening. Every day he would hit it a few times in the correct spot with a small sledgehammer.)

The pre-SW AW hubs had separate dogs on the gear ring for second and first gears. These would wear faster than the later (maybe introduced before the SW but I do not really know) single set of dogs. I had shifting issues with my 1949 AG until I swapped ring gears. (Remember that the AW went obsolete for a year or two around 1956 when S.A. tried to move everyone to the SW which flopped miserably.)

The AW neutral issue is why I would set up those hubs with more cable tension than the factory advised. With that improvement I essentially never had a second gear neutral problem. The other trick for the pull-chain shifting was to route the cables along the top tube and down the seat stays. This meant that any movement of the rear wheel in the dropout or flex in the chain stay from pedalling minimized cable movement. This might not work on the soft seat stays becoming popular on some modern road bikes.

My HI-E hi-lo 16-24 rear hub split a hub flange. Fortunately I studied the issue before it finally separated; the wheel was not staying true.

The Rohloff has also done the freewheel-both-directions thing when cold (5 degrees F); probably the wrong oil, but I have stopped using that hub for much of anything so I do not know.

The first Shimano 7 speed I used died a bad death at 10 miles. It broke a pawl. It would freewheel OK, but pedalling was locked in all but 2nd, 6th and 7th. 5th gear was level-road, and the bike was not easy to ride off-the-saddle due to the geometry. I rode it home (12 miles). (The only reason I have another 7 speed is that was the stock hub on the Incline shaft drive bike.)

This last reminds me to ask Alex W. what he dislikes about the Shimano 7 speed.

In the end however you may need to pay for a ride. Just the same as when your car dies a bad enough death that you cannot get it home using a come-along to hold the front suspension in place (I have a friend who did that twice to get his BMW from Vermont to Rochester NY).

Michael Wilson

Tom

... According to my factory literature, the K511 gear ring with the two separate sets of internal dogs was replaced by the HSA118 gear ring in 1957/58. ... So

Message 11 of 11
, Mar 2 2:01 PM

0 Attachment

> The pre-SW AW hubs had separate dogs on the
> gear ring for second and first gears. These would
> wear faster than the later (maybe introduced before
> the SW but I do not really know) single set of dogs.

According to my factory literature, the K511 gear ring with the two separate sets of internal dogs was replaced by the HSA118 gear ring in 1957/58.

> Remember that the AW went obsolete for a year
> or two around 1956 when S.A. tried to move everyone
> to the SW...

So I've read several times. However, the AW hub is cataloged in various official Sturmey publications for each of the years 1954, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 and 60. Since the SW hub was more expensive (again, according to factory Sturmey price sheets), it seems reasonable that S-A would keep some quantity of AWs in production for their most price conscious OEMs, and in fact AWs with these date codes do appear on ebay today.

PJ

Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.