See how Israeli colonies killed the two state solution

This week Jeff Halper of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions is in the States, and a lot of people are going to see him, so it seemed a good time to get up this video I made last July of Halper in the Old City, showing me the “Judaization” of East Jerusalem.

This is an important video because you can see how Israel strangled any possibility of two states by creating Jewish colonies all through the heart of Palestinian Jerusalem in an effort to engulf the Old City– a project that continues by the minute.

Halper and I stand on the rooftop of the Austrian Hospice, a quarter mile from the Al Aqsa Mosque, and look east and south, mostly. The video is 9 and a half minutes long. Here are some of the highlights:

–The first minute or so we look east at the Mount of Olives at a Jewish settlement. You can’t really make it out, but you can see the minaret on the horizon, and the Jewish building is right next to it.

–Also in the first minute, we look south at Ateret Kohanim, a religious Jewish settlement in the heart of the Muslim Quarter of the Old City. At 1:37 you can see three big Israeli flags fluttering on top of this settlement (just to the left of the white flagpole in the foreground).

–At 2:00, Halper talks about 17 settlements, many funded by American Irving Moskowitz, all through the Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, which spill out before us, beyond the walls of the Old City. These are all landgrabs. “Once you’re in, you’re in.” The Supreme Court orders them evacuated, but nothing happens.

2:31 In the distance on the southeast (Halper’s and my right) you can see the Israeli settlement of Nof Zion on the horizon (just to the left of the flagpole). To see the same terrain from Nof Zion in the south, here’s another video with Halper.

3:00. Halper turns to our left, the north, and shows me Israeli flags on a building on the north wall of the Old City, not far from Damascus Gate. “The message is, Dont think we’re confining ourselves to the Jewish quarter. This whole city is ours.”

5:43. Halper points out that Israel is planning a bypass road to go from south to north to connect all these colonies east of the Green Line. It will go from Bethlehem to Nof Zion, to the Mt of Olives and on up to Shilo in the northern West Bank. Because right now the settlers we see are “pioneers,” Halper says. “The road will open it up. They [settlers] are isolated today, but they know the road is coming… Then you won’t have to go through Arab alleyways [to get to your house].”

Halper tells me about the Israeli plan to Annex Area C, which is 60 percent of the West Bank, but contains less than 5 percent of the Palestinian population. The Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from this land. There were 200,000 Palestinians in the Jordan Valley in 1967. Today there are less than 50,000.

At 8:30, Halper tells me about the goal. When Israel annexes Area C, it will say, “Area A and B, that’s not our problem.” The Palestinians can have a state on that land. “Our hands are clean. We’ve nailed it down. There’s no occupation… That’s where Dani Dayan and the Levy Report are all headed.”

Halper continues: Israel knows that “the international community never accepted our annexation of Jerusalem, but they never did anything about it.” So now there will be some bitching and moaning about Area C, but nothing will happen.

92 Responses

They are JEWISH colonies. “Israeli” encompasses the 20% of citizens who are Palestinians. “Jewish” and the Jewish settlements don’t. Palestinians with Israeli passports are not allowed to live in the settlements BECAUSE THEY ARE EXCLUSIVELY FOR JEWS.

They are JEWISH colonies. “Israeli” encompasses the 20% of citizens who are Palestinians.

Nope they’re just Zionist ones. Under the applicable statistical laws, Palestinians are not Israelis for the purposes of ethnicity or religion. Israeli Supreme Court President Shimon Agranat ruled that:

“the wish of a handful of Jews to break away from the nation and create a new concept of an Israeli nation was not a legitimate aspiration. . . . There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people. . . . The Jewish people is composed not only of those residing in Israel but also of Diaspora Jewries.”– CA 630/70 Tamarin v. State of Israel [1972] IsrSC 26(1) 197.

The Courts in Israel have continuously proclaimed that the purpose and
object of the laws are the maintenance of Jewish domination and the Jewish character of the State of Israel. In the Namibia case, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that the policy of apartheid or separate development constituted a violation of the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations regarding the self determination of peoples. In the Wall case, the ICJ disposed of the pseudo-legal argument that there is no Palestinian people.

Prof. Ruth Gavison, Haim H. Cohn Professor of Human Rights Law at Hebrew University, Jerusalem has written that the question in the Tamarin case is still relevant to the identity of the collective that enjoys the right to self-determination in Israel. She repeats the now shopworn Zionist arguments that Palestinians were considered Arabs; Jews needed a place to go; and about the imagined legal significance of Balfour’s recognition of the Jewish “historical connection” to Palestine. See Gavison, Ruth E., The Law of Return at Sixty Years: History, Ideology, Justification (October 31, 2011). Available at SSRN: link to ssrn.com or link to dx.doi.org

I think he’s one of the features of the Zionist ecology. He can be held up as an example of dissidence and robust debate. He still likes his status as a Jew.He’s critical of the system but harmless. He isn’t going to bring anyone along with him. He’s more or less neutered.

Zionism has wiped out all opposition. The crash will be very, very difficult when it comes. Libya might be an example of what happens.

Not sure why the Palestinian state authorities wouldn’t be able to declare the partnerships between Israeli officials and the settlers joint criminal enterprises.

How else would you describe the relationship between Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat, the settler organization Elad, and the excavations conducted under the auspices of the Israel Antiquities Authority in East Jerusalem? The parties concerned all know perfectly well that they are openly committing illegal acts on the territory of Palestine. Let the victims decide whether or not its too late to request Interpol red notices, prosecutions in the ICC and other courts, or ask other countries to tax or freeze the assets of organizations like Eldad. The same logic applies to the highways, rail lines, and etc. constructed in Palestine by the Israeli Transportation Ministry and their construction contractors.

Nothing is going to happen by simply wishing for a single democratic state. Palestinians will have to do all of the things that I mentioned to make a single democratic state appear to be “the lesser of two evils” to the Zionists, i.e. the only way out of a political and legal quagmire. That’s what really happened in South Africa and Namibia.

The ICAHD site makes this claim: “For almost that long we have argued that the two-state solution is dead and gone…”

Five years ago this October, at the Sabeel Conference in Boston about the Apartheid paradigm in I-P, an observer wrote about Halper’s presentation: “Halper exhorted the assemblage to take the apartheid-in-the-occupied-territories route because (this was said hurriedly, emphatically) ‘the single state is a non-starter’. ”

Halper has plugged in his birthright and his brilliant gate-keeping over the years has helped us arrive at this pretty pass.

lvig says: “The ICAHD site makes this claim: “For almost that long we have argued that the two-state solution is dead and gone…”

Five years ago this October, at the Sabeel Conference in Boston about the Apartheid paradigm in I-P, an observer wrote about Halper’s presentation: “Halper exhorted the assemblage to take the apartheid-in-the-occupied-territories route because (this was said hurriedly, emphatically) ‘the single state is a non-starter’. ”

Strictly speaking, I don’t see a logical problem. It two states won’t work, and one state won’t work, then obviously Israel is an untenable concept, and the sooner we disband it and let everyone get on with their lives, the better.

The implied message in the sad comments by Jeff Halper, is that he lends his support to a future Palestine that is “Jew free”. Jeff does not qualify any of his comments with the questioning of the Palestinians in allowing Jews to live in an independent Palestine with dual citizenship for example. Israel has and can have Palestinians living amongst Jews, but not the other way around. Don’t you think Philip, that the real racists and supporters of racism comes from the Palestinians, aided by fools like Jeff Halper?

At Camp David 2000, Arafat was offered vertical sovereignty over the holy sites, with Jews retaining horizontal sovereignty. The mosques, being above ground, to the Arabs, and anything below ground to the Jews. Remember the mosques are built on top of the ruins of the Jewish Temples ( 1 & 2 ). The Ten Commandment tablets may be still somewhere in earth below the mosques, so Israel says, leave things as they are. No digging that could have any impact on what lies below ground. The Palestinians rejected this at Camp David 2000. The Palestinians have no intention of sharing, thus they are not interested in peace. So they refuse to negotiate directly with Israel and let the UN and Europeans, and lost souls like Halper, do their dirty work for them, hoping they will apply economic pressure on Israel. Jews cannot turn their backs on the Temple Mount and the Palestinians know this. And yet they still refuse to consider sharing. And remember, the Palestinians have never, in all of history, controlled Jerusalem.

There, there, giladg. Of course you are right about every little thing, and that was all so endearing about the Temple Mount and the Original Ten Commandments.
But things change, deal with it. You rolled the dice, gambled you could double-down a religion into a state in the modern era, and now the cards aren’t coming up your way. Oh well. See you at Masada, tough guy. In the meantime, stop whining, okay?

And if you don’t, I’ll tell certain people how scared Zionists are of Christmas decorations. Wouldn’t that put the snuffer on Hannukah in Jerusalem!

Jesus, our forebearers went through all the persecution so we can be cursed with the likes of giladg for five-to-seven generations, with possible time off for good behavior? Whoops, sorry, just blurted it out, but crap, Zionists make me sick.

Don’t be ridiculous Mooser. “Things change” you say. What are you talking about? You are asking something of the Jews as if to say to Muslims, move on from Mohammad or from Christians to move on from Jesus. You would do better calling on Muslims to be more accepting of other religions. Maybe this way Islam will finally discover its period of enlightenment, move into it and then at the end of it become less radical. The moderate Muslims need to find their voice and the spine to stand up to the Jihadists.

OK, Lord of the Universe has some sentimental attachment for being worshipped at a particular spot, with some correct collection of animal sacrifices, but clearly He can do without it. As we have seen for almost 2000 years. So so He shall (for a while, at least). But He can be worshipped several hundred meters from the favorite spot, without even one measly animal sacrifice. And He is also be worshipped in assorted locations, often very tastefully decorated.

I have no idea how Torah supports the Jewish need for the access to the Western wall, or tombs of assorted patriarchs and matriarchs, or to have a republican type of a state with the capital not far from the former palace of the kings of Judah. In the meantime, do Jews observe such important restriction like that if you marry a prepubescent bride you should wait 4 days to have a sex with her (did the Prophet, PBUH, observe that?)

I see you are quoting from the cartoon version of version of zionism which Yahoo is keen to promote. Complete with cardboard cutout villains. Nearly all of your diatribe is complete nonsense, and a predictable regurgitation of zio fantasy hasbara cliches.

Mndwss says: “Yes they have. They have not had a Palestinian kingdom or state that ruled Palestine + Jerusalem.

But they have lived there and controlled Jerusalem for centuries under the Ottomans, just like Israel now is under the US.

And just like the palestinians did, the israelis would lose everything if the empire stop to protect them.”

There goes — yet again — that eternally slain but eternally revived canard that today’s Jews are the descendants of the Biblical Hebrews whilst the Palestinians are not.

The Old Testament describes several states in Palestine that incorporated Jerusalem; some of these are mythological, whilst others were dubiously independent — but some of them were indubitably real and at least sometimes independent. There were states in Palestine that incorporated Jerusalem.

And the descendants of the individuals making up these states are today’s Palestinians. So how can anyone seriously say ‘the Palestinians have never, in all of history, controlled Jerusalem’?

No written and no archeological evidence backs up anything you have said ColinWright. Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Koran. There is a strong case today that suggests most of the current Arab residents of the region, migrated to the region in recent history from Syria, Arabia and Egypt.
Putting this aside, the main point to be taken out of this is that Arab Palestinians and Muslims worldwide negate the Jewish connection to the land. If there is every going to be peace, then the ColinWrights of the world should not lend any support to the Palestinians, as long as they continue this same theme. Palestinians need to say that Jews have as strong a connection to the holy sites as anyone else. Until they say this, the world should shun the Palestinian cause and wait for another day. Those who listen to many radical Muslims, in their own words, understand that the Islamic world is no where near doing this. Decent people around the world need to stop offering any type of support to them until they do, and offer their support to Israel and the Jewish people instead. This is the right thing to do.

“It was the first direction of prayer in Islam, before the Kaaba in Mecca;

“Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”
— Qur’an, Sura 17 (Al-Is’ra), ayat 1[3]

And then there’s a hadith:

“It is then specified in the Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet Mohammad, that the Al Aqsa Mosque is indeed located in Jerusalem:

That he heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “When the people of Quraish did not believe me (i.e. the story of my Night Journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.” Sahih Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 226. [4]link to en.wikipedia.org

Was it projection that made you type words 180 degrees divergent from reality?
“If there is every going to be peace, then … the world should not lend any support to the Zionists, as long as they continue this same theme. Zionists need to say that Christian and Muslim Arabs have as strong a connection to the holy sites as anyone else. Until they say this, the world should shun the Zionist cause and wait for another day. Those who listen to many radical Israelis, in their own words, understand that the Zionist world is no where near doing this. Decent people around the world need to stop offering any type of support to them until they do, and offer their support to Palestine and the Palestinian people instead. This is the right thing to do.”

“There is a strong case today that suggests most of the current Arab residents of the region, migrated to the region in recent history from Syria, Arabia and Egypt.”

Joan Peters’ revisionist thesis has been handsomely debunked for quite a while now.
For close to 2,000 years Jews’ numbers in Palestine never exceeded 2 to 3% of the population. Now let me ask you who then was this population that constituted the 98%? Guatemaltecs?

This “controlling” argument is ridiculous. Latvians did not control Latvia, first there were some separate tribes and then political control of several other states, Teutonic Order, Poland, Sweden, Russia. But they are Latvian and now there is Latvia. The case of Belorus is even more interesting. While they have a separate Slavic dialect (or language), they were never particularly nationalistic except for some more energetic minority, so one can make a case that they are a recently invented nation. Yet they clearly deserve to live where they live, REGARDLESS WHAT THEY FOREBEARS WERE CONTROLLING. Being mostly peasants, their ancestors did not control much. There are no holy books of Belorussians describing Minsk, Vitebsk, Hrodna or Slonim, but so what?

The never ending Hasbara, overflowing with nonsense, ‘specially crafted for those who either don’t check or purposefully propagate false information.

But let’s presume giladg’s nonsense is true for a moment.

“Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Koran. “

So what. It is irrelevant to the actual extent of Israeli sovereignty

“There is a strong case today that suggests most of the current Arab residents of the region, migrated to the region in recent history from Syria, Arabia and Egypt.”

Irrelevant to the actual extent of Israeli sovereignty, International Law, UNSC resolutions and the UN Charter. IOW, poor giladg’s comments are completely irrelevant twaddle spiel that ignores the fact that much of post 1945 International Law, Conventions and the UN Charter was based on the terrible crimes inflicted on Jewish folk by the Nazis, in order that it should “never again” happen.

” Palestinians need to say that Jews have as strong a connection to the holy sites as anyone else. “

They did for over 2,000 years, Jews lived as citizens of Palestine in relative peace. It was 1948 Israeli military ordinance that forbade Israeli citizens and residents from entering the territory of a hostile entity. Jerusalem under Jordanian occupation/control was the territory of a hostile entity. Likewise Jordan refused entry to citizens and residents of a hostile entity, Israel. Quite NORMAL for entities at war. Australia interred and deported Germans, Japanese during WWII, so too did all the allies.

” Until they say this, the world should shun the Palestinian cause and wait for another day.”

Islam is a great religion but there is a problem with how some things are interpreted. Not all versions of the Koran are exactly the same and not all Hadiths are accepted by all Muslims. Changes have also been made to some versions of the Koran as little as 400 years ago.
MRW and thankgodimatheist, mention (which is ironic coming from an atheist) that in reference to the death of Mohammad, he flew on a winged horse to the furthest mosque, interpreted to be Jerusalem. However, when Mohammad died the Islamic faith had only recently been introduced to the world by Mohammad and no grand mosques had yet to be built, anywhere, never mind Jerusalem. So some things don’t quite add up. Apparently, the furthest mosque must be something else.

“Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Koran.”
Oh, no! Not again with this nonsense!

Yes! Another adherent to my “crusade” to restore the the rightful King of Jerusalem (HRH Juan Carlos I) to his throne. The Kingdom of Jerusalem lasted for nearly two centuries, Christians have maintained a constant attachment to and physical presence in the city since Time Immemorial and, most importantly, no other religion’s holy canon mentions Jerusalem as many times as Christian Scriptures: 891 times (NJB – that’s the Catholic New JERUSALEM Bible)!

William Burns, the Arabs and Muslims have wagged many wars against the Jewish people and are planning more. For crying out loud, try finding some perspective instead of sucking up the lies they spread. Israel is willing to share. It is the Arabs and Muslims who are not.

And I thought I was alone. We’re having a planning session/bake sale to raise funds (figured we’d pick up Juan-dude on the flight over.) Want to come?

So that’s what Netanyahu was on about at the UN! “The Crusaders are ‘this’ [draws line with red marker] close to reaching their fund-raising goal. And when that happens, this [points to drawing of hybrid cannon-ball-mace projectile] is the sort of thing their catapults will be hurling at the walls of Jerusalem.”

“Arab Palestinians and Muslims worldwide negate the Jewish connection to the land.”

They deny that European Jews have any conncetion with the land. But they would also deny that Indonesian Muslims have any connection with the land.

“Palestinians need to say that Jews have as strong a connection to the holy sites as anyone else.”

I don’t think that Palestinians deny that Jews have a strong religious connection to the Jewsih holy sites any more than they deny that Christians have a strong religious connection to the Christian holy sites. But they would deny that the Christian connection gives Welsh Christians a right to reside in Palestine, let alone set up a sate there.

There were people who lived in Jerusalem prior to the arrival of the zionists and they even had religious buildings. I know this may come as a shock to Gilad and the rest of the bots but it’s actually true.

“That he heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “When the people of Quraish did not believe me (i.e. the story of my Night Journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.”

Hi, TGIA, that was from one of thousands of hadiths gathered by Bukhari about 200 years after it was supposed to have been spoken by the Prophet. It was about a nocturnal dream the Prophet had of having to been to al-aqsa that some interpret as Jerusalem while others as Medina. That was a long time between the actual event and the time Bukhari gathered the information about it and a long of list of interpretations could have been picked up along the way.

Jerusalem or al-Quds are not mentioned by name anywhere in the Qur’an. The Muslims’ claim to Jerusalem based on the Qur’an is as stretchy as the claim to it by the Jews based on Biblical writings. We can’t disallow one religious source without disallowing the other. Palestinians have a valid claim to Jerusalem that goes beyond any religious writings and to push the Qur’anic justification serves only as a distraction that plays into the Zionists’ hands. Palestinians have a right to the land because of their historic presence on it until they were pushed out by incoming Zionists and this reason enough.

As you mentioned, the first qiblah was Jerusalem that the first Muslims faced 3 times for daily prayers. But this is not mentioned in the Qur’an. About 14 years later after disagreement with the Jews because of their refusal to accept the Prophet as the last of God’s messengers, it was revealed at Medina, as mentioned in the Qur’an, that Muslims were to stop facing the initial qiblah and to start facing the qiblah at masjid al-Haram, which is located in today’s Mecca. It was also at this time that Muslims were instructed to drop Yom Kippur (Ashura) and other Jewish traditions and the taxes of the Jews were hiked up.

No written and no archeological evidence backs up anything you have said ColinWright. Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Koran.

What’s your point? Jerusalem isn’t mentioned in the Torah either.

I guess this bears repeating: The Zionists are always insisting that after 130 A.D. the Roman government changed the name of the country to Palestine. We know that they established provincial governments that used the name. The Code of Theodosius, a work that dates from the fifth century A.D. describes:
*Palaestina Prima, with Caesarea for its capital, comprising Judaea and Samaria, which became the Arab Jund of Filastin, with Ramlah for its capital.
*Palaestina Secunda, with Scythopolis (Beth Shean, Baisan) for its capital, comprising the two Galilees and the western part of Persea, became the Jund of Al Urdunn (the Jordan), with Tiberias for the new capital.
*Palaestina Tertia, or Salutaris, including Idumaea and Arabia Petrcea, was absorbed partly into the Damascus Jund, and partly was counted in Filastin. — link to archive.org
You’ll have to argue with the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs too:

According to historical sources, Ramla was founded at the beginning of the 8th century by the Umayyad Calif Suleiman ibn Abd el-Malik. It served as the Umayyad and Abbasid capital of the Province of Palestine (Jund Filistin), and the seat of Arab governors of the province in the 8th and 9th centuries.

– link to mfa.gov.il
Jerusalem eventually became the capital of Jund Filistin, after the Fatimids conquered the district from the Abbasids. Its principal towns were Ashkelon, Ramla, Gaza, Arsuf, Caesarea, Jaffa, Jericho, Nablus, Bayt Jibrin, and Amman.

FYI, the actual text of Basle Program of the First Zionist Congress did NOT use the term “Eretz Israel”, it used the term “Palistina”. link to upload.wikimedia.org

Similarly, Neville J. Mandel noted that throughout the 19th century the Ottoman Government employed the term “Arz-i Filistin” (the “Land of Palestine” ) in official correspondence, meaning for all intents and purposes the area to the west of the River Jordan which became “Palestine” under the British in 1922. See ”The Arabs and Zionism Before World War I”. University of California Press, . ISBN 0-520-02466-4link to books.google.com

What does anything of a religious book have to do with basic human rights of people that live on a land?

The “Eternal Torah” actually contained a commandment which said that:

There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who resides in your midst.

Like giladg, the ancients apparently thought they would be better-off if that commandment stayed buried. The scriptures record that the Book of the Law was completely lost and only rediscovered during the reign of King Josiah.

The sages conveniently concluded that “stranger” meant “proselyte”, but that reading encounters almost insurmountable difficulties in the case the commandment which said “And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

giladg October 2, 2012 at 2:04 am“…the Arabs and Muslims have wagged many wars against the Jewish people “

Odd there are no UNSC resolutions against anyone for attacking Israel. NIL.

By May 14th/15th 1948, Jewish forces were already outside the territory slated for the Jewish State. On Israel being declared independent from Palestine, the neighbouring powers had a legal right to intervene in and attempt to evict foreign forces from Palestine. Even the Israeli Govt says the Arab States invaded Palestine May 15th 1948. Not Israel.

Israel has never been in Palestine. It is impossible for an independent state to be in or part of a non-self governing territory. In fact non-self-governing territories are to be protected by all UN Member States. They must protect the people, their property and their territory. Israel has failed, dismally.

On stating their intentions to the UNSC, the Arab states as Regional Powers, have a right after 64 years of Chapter VI resolutions failing, to evict Israeli forces remaining in any Palestinian territory and Syria has the right to attack Israeli forces in the Golan.

UNSC resolutions call for peace in Palestine, not Israel because there has never been a war in the State of Israel.

“Israel is willing to share. “

Only a real dumb rrrrrrrs thinks an offer to swap the Palestinians Palestinian territory for Palestinian territory so that Israel can keep Palestinian territory is ‘sharing’ . Twice now, in front of the world at the UN, the Palestinians have offered all the territory Israel illegally acquired by war by Israel by 1949 in order to have peace. Israel has never responded and has offered no thing.

There is only one thing protecting Israel from the Law. The US veto vote in the UNSC. That’s it. There is no legal excuse, justification or reason why the Palestinians should give up one inch of their rightfull territories, but they have offered over half.

This is more Zionist misdirection. Controlling the parameters of an argument via false assertions presented matter of factly as if they were well established fact. Specifically, that this situation has anything at all to do with Islam. This is ethnic cleansing, genocide, a massive land grab period. Sure most of the people living on the land the Zionists have taken and will take are Muslims, but tens of thousands are Christian. And the Christians receive the same axe in the neck. The Zionists want to present this as a battle against evil Islam; if the American public were to know that Christians as well as Muslims are on the receiving end of the Zionist aggression, it would be bye bye Zionist state of Israel.

“MRW and thankgodimatheist, mention (which is ironic coming from an atheist) that in reference to the death of Mohammad, he flew on a winged horse to the furthest mosque (which is ironic coming from an atheist)”

Where did I say that I believe those fairy tales? You wrote, as if it was of primordial importance, that there’s no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran and I replied that you’re wrong, there is a mention whichever way it was foprmulated. That doesn’t make me a believer of the said mention.

No UNSC resolutions condemning the Arabs and Muslims after attacking Israel, is because of the cowardice shown by Brittan, France, Russia and China who vetoed every attempt to do so. All, including the US, feared reprisals by the oil rick countries. The desire to keep the cost of gas down and maintaining customers who will purchase weapons, has allowed Arabs and Muslim countries to get away with murder.

“Palestinians have a valid claim to Jerusalem that goes beyond any religious writings and to push the Qur’anic justification serves only as a distraction that plays into the Zionists’ hands. ”
I didn’t push a Quranic justification, I just corrected the creep on something that isn’t accurate. True, whether it’s mentioned explicitly or implicitly should not and it does not in my view, count. What we have here is a case of pathology. The idea that only religion-based connection is of primordial importance to justify the claim to a portion of land while a 1400 years of continued residence on a certain land comes second or doesn’t at all.. And I’m only referring to those who came into these lands as conquerors in 732 but not forgetting those who were inhabiting the land well before that like Christian Palestinians who are the first Christians on the planet and others who converted to either faith and who are now part of the collective known as the Palestinian people.

” There is a strong case today that suggests most of the current Arab residents of the region, migrated to the region in recent history from Syria, Arabia and Egypt.”

Oh, really? You mean after the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem in 637 they just didn’t like the place and went back home only to change their minds 1400 years later and moved back in? Is that it, genius?

giladg says: “No UNSC resolutions condemning the Arabs and Muslims after attacking Israel, is because of the cowardice shown by Brittan, France, Russia and China who vetoed every attempt to do so. All, including the US, feared reprisals by the oil rick countries…”

Well, at least us Americans can take solace in the fact that we appear to have Congress of heroes.

Hostage, Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Torah because the Torah was around before the city was established. The same cannot be said about the Koran. If it was not mentioned in the Koran then it was not supposed to be. Mohammed knew about the city.

“Hostage, Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Torah because the Torah was around before the city was established.”

LMAO. Go learn some history. The Torah was put together in about 450 BC from sources no older than about 1000 BC. “Jerusalem” — the city which will one day be once again known by its proper name of Aelia Capitolina — has been continuously occupied since 2800BC.

thankgodimatheist says “Palestinians have a valid claim to Jerusalem that goes beyond any religious writings and to push the Qur’anic justification serves only as a distraction that plays into the Zionists’ hands.”

What you fail to understand mr. athiest, is that the Palestinians have placed Jerusalem at the center of their entire struggle with Israel and they have done this precisely because of its religious implications. Therefore all religious aspects need to be looked at very carefully and guess who has the weakest case for Jerusalem. You guessed it, the Palestinians.
What they should be asking for is special access to the Temple Mount. On certain days of the week, during certain hours, Palestinians from Abu Dis can practically travel a short distance to the Temple Mount, the Palestinians can pray to their hearts delight, and then travel back once their allotted time is over. Any talk about dividing the city will not work. The Temple Mount cannot be divided and is the holiest site for Jews. Jews are not going to walk away from it. Palestinians need to dump the advice they are getting from the Muslim Brotherhood and the Jihadists and they need to start thinking about the word “share” and acknowledge that someone else was around before them. And then there are Israeli Arabs who also want to retain their access. One set of Arab Muslims is not going to get access without having to go through some type of passport control. Either Israeli Arabs of Palestinian Arabs.

The only time the UK and France were involved in a veto about Israel was during the Suez War in 1956 which they waged alongside Israel and against Egypt. They vetoed a resolution calling for a cessation of hostilities.

The USSR as it was then vetoed a few times – no more than 5 – but none since 1966. On the other hand the US has vetoed resolutions on Israel (always favouring Israel) 14 times since 1985.

Can I suggest that you do some homework before making pronouncements on this blog?

” Palestinians have placed Jerusalem at the center of their entire struggle with Israel and they have done this precisely because of its religious implications.”

You mean they don’t care about losing their entire homeland on which they’ve been living for centuries to a bunch of European colonials because all they care about is some “holy” place where they can pray? How about those Christian Palestinians, 30% of the population, are their concerns religion based and driven? You’re so full of crap it’s incredible. Not to mention how utterly racist of you to reduce people to such an accessory parameter. It boggles the mind to see how shallow your understanding of the human condition let alone the Palestinian one.

Hostage, Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Torah because the Torah was around before the city was established. . . . If it was not mentioned in the Koran then it was not supposed to be.

So God knew all about the Babylonian exile (Deuteronomy 28:64), but didn’t have a clue about Jerusalem? I suppose the first Temple in Shiloh (1 Samuel 3:3) was a temporary lapse in judgment or a sign of Alzheimer’s.

Archeologists have noted that at some point the Jews prayed in and sanctified Jerusalem, while the Samaritans prayed at and ascribed holiness to Mt. Gerizim. Their Temple was built before Nehemiah’s arrival in 445 B.C.E. The experts also note that the establishment of temples was not a rare occurrence in the Persian period—for instance, there were temples that the Jews built in Elephantine, and Leontopolis in Egypt. A temple might also have been established in Babylonia. See Magen’s article here: link to biblicalarchaeology.org

Therefore all religious aspects need to be looked at very carefully and guess who has the weakest case for Jerusalem. You guessed it, the Palestinians.

Please compare 1) the number of times the Hebrew scriptures and Talmudic texts record the fact that God intentionally caused the destruction of the Temples in Jerusalem and Mt Gerizim and supposedly caused the inhabitants to be carried away as captives or driven into exile with 2) the number of times the Koran records similar Divine acts of displeasure in connection with Al-Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem and its Muslim worshipers.

“Hebrew scriptures and Talmudic texts record the fact that God intentionally caused the destruction of the Temples in Jerusalem and Mt Gerizim and supposedly caused the inhabitants to be carried away as captives or driven into exile”

That does rather suggest that one thing God doesn’t want is Jews in Jerusalem.

“Israel has and can have Palestinians living amongst Jews, but not the other way around.”
Nice try comparing two entirely different situations! Palestinians in Israel have been in the land for centuries. Settlers arrived yesterday forcing themselves on the population and treating them like crap.

Perhaps because ALL the Jews settled in the West Bank are implicated in war crimes. And if you want to argue that Jews and their descendants who lived in the West Bank prior to 1948 should be allowed to return then you would also have to accept that all Palestinians and their descendants should be allowed to return to what was Palestine. Ooops, that would end the Zionist experiment.

As for the Palestinians sharing, one can hardly blame them for being reluctant to do so when the Jews demonstrated and continue to demonstrate an unwillingness to share by expelling and ethnically cleansing Palestinians.

giladg says: “…The implied message in the sad comments by Jeff Halper, is that he lends his support to a future Palestine that is “Jew free”. Jeff does not qualify any of his comments with the questioning of the Palestinians in allowing Jews to live in an independent Palestine with dual citizenship for example…”

I don’t understand. If Palestine is independent, what other state would Jews be citizens of?

Anyway, I wouldn’t fret. There are millions of expatriate Palestinians, and I would imagine a free Palestine would have generous dual citizenship laws. Presumably, Jews as well as Christians and Muslims could retain their American citizenship, or their German citizenship, or their Russian citizenship, or whatever citizenship and become citizens of Palestine as well.

Always the lawyer, I was struck (as you all were, confess it!) by the claim that the Israeli S/C ordered some self-inserted settlers to leave the place of their self-insertion and they refused and the Israeli police did nothing (in effect, also refused).

So, if all this be true, we have a country patting itself on the back as a democracy which does not grant primacy to its courts.

Also, of course, cares not a fig for international law, even when that law is expressed by the USA (UNSC 465 (1980)) and the ICJ (2004).

But, as we also know, the countries who undertook “to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention [Fourth Geneva Convention]in all circumstances” have made not the slightest effort to do so, presumably to avoid the wrath of the ever-so-puissant USA, but still, NO EFFORT.

So the whole world is a snake-pit of illegality with courts which cannot compel lawfulness. And the leaders of this branch of world-lawlessness are USA and Israel, the self-adoring and soi-dissant “lights unto the nations”.

Phil: Ask Halper if he would welcome serious international pressure (diplomatic, trade, etc.) to compel Israel to withdraw all the settlers and dismantle all the settlements.

But, as we also know, the countries who undertook “to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention [Fourth Geneva Convention]in all circumstances” have made not the slightest effort to do so, presumably to avoid the wrath of the ever-so-puissant USA, but still, NO EFFORT.

Yep, if you’re trying to produce facts on the ground, then upgrading the status of Palestine is “extremely counterproductive”.

Here’s the news about the latest round of US blackmail and intimidation:

The US has asked European governments not to support the PLO’s bid to upgrade its status at the UN, The Guardian reported Monday.

In a memo seen by the UK-based newspaper, the US urged European governments “to support [US] efforts” to block the bid, and threatened “significant negative consequences” including financial sanctions if Palestine secured an upgrade to its UN status. . . .

The US memo, which was communicated to representatives of European governments, said the upgrade “would have significant negative consequences, for the peace process itself, for the UN system, as well as our ability to maintain our significant financial support for the Palestinian Authority.”

It noted that “observer state” membership of the UN would allow Palestine access to the International Criminal Court. At the ICC, Palestine could challenge Israel’s settlement building, occupation and blockade on Gaza, which breach international law

The status of, and building within, East Jerusalem has no effect on the viability of the 2SS. The Palestinians may choose to reject a solution that does not include Jerusalem but a state would certainly be viable without it.

Mndwss says: I will take you seriously when you let Palestinians build in West Jerusalem.
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Well I am not in charge of who builds in Jerusalem proper but I think that any Israeli (including those of Arab descent) should be allowed to build in any part of Jerusalem. And Israel would certainly be viable without Jerusalem, but sharing or dividing the city is a ridiculous and unworkable concept.

Mndwss says:What is so ridiculous about sharing the city?
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Even a Corpus Separatum is controlled by someone (BTW, the UN is incapable of this role) and as best I know there is no history of a strictly “shared” city succeeding anywhere. The area is far to volatile for to be left without sovereignty. Personally I think the best the Palestinians can hope for is some corner of metro Jerusalem so they can say they won and perhaps to assume Jordan’s role on the Temple Mount.

And seafoid, what is vital for the Palestinian economy is to abandon terror and work together with Israel, as partners in the region. Palestinians still hold onto the idea that Israel will and should be destroyed and as such they have missed every opportunity for real peace. And peace in the region will bring tourists to places like Ramallah and Bethlehem, and in great numbers.

Now you start to understand reality Annie. If you don’t want peace, and you have proven this time after time, then only an idiot will wait for the next attack. And so it was in 1967 when there were no settlements. If the Arabs are going to continue and attack, then rather be proactive instead of reactive. You take your frustrations out on the wrong side Annie.

History has shown over and over that it is the Israelis who attack, and it is the Israelis who imprison the deluge of peace activists pushing for human rights, equality, and justice. This site is literally filled with thousands of examples.

Its amazing how with so much information at your tips here, you can’t see anything past your own racist, false, and (quite often) erroneous. preconceptions.

“When Israel annexes Area C, it will say, “Area A and B, that’s not our problem.” The Palestinians can have a state on that land. “Our hands are clean. We’ve nailed it down. There’s no occupation… That’s where Dani Danon and the Levy Report are all headed.””

Danny Danon is a clown. All of those neo Jabotinskian Zionist ideologues are. He thinks the world owes the Jews something. And that whatever the Jews do will be accepted by the goyim. And that it will be self financing. And ponies.

The whole Weltanschauung that says “we take Area C and declare the occupation over” is deluded. Gaza is also “over” in that view. Gaza is a timebomb. It is not stable. It will explode. And even though there is no court for Gaza it’s Pottery Barn rules. Judaism broke it.

It comes back time and again to the same question- what is Judaism going to do with all of those unwanted Palestinians? And Judaism has thrown in its lot with the thugs and crossed its fingers and prayed on Yom Kippur that it all works out and that G-d is still in on the project.

The other big unanswered question is how do you run an advanced consumer society and generate the economic growth needed to keep it going while devoting all your political energy to this religion-inspired nihilism.

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