I'm the kind of guy who thinks he knows what the definition of "is" is. I always thought an appellation system was one that delineated an area for its particular attributes, combining climate, soil, grape varieties and perhaps methods of production.

By your own definition, Foodie, the AVAs do not constitute an appellation system, but your definition is not the only one, and the Australians wouldn't even bother debating the point. You have a right to your own opinion, of course, but there is no god-given "is" about any of it. However, you are most certainly wrong to say that anything other than the sort of appellation system you describe is just a marketing system. Might be, perhaps, but not necessarily. Furthermore, the French AOC, which certainly conforms to your notion of an appellation system, was conceived not for the benefit of consumers, but to protect producers, and if that is not a marketing system, I don't know what is.

Yes it is a semantics debate. That's why I said earlier we are saying the same thing, only differently.

I do agree that the French appellation was put in place to protect the producers whom the government perceived as offering quality. After phylloxera, many changes took place, not the least of which was a proliferation of hybrids and black market wines during the two wars to follow. Appellation, at first, was an attempt of the premiums to distinguish themsleves from the "lower" vignerons, and the fact that Alsace was allowed to add sugar negated the high status of the appellation concept.

Of course, that rotates us right back to the subject of legitimacy. I still cannot see how an appellation without controls offers legitimacy by stating on the label where the grapes came from. Seems to me only those with in-depth knowledge of viticulture benefit from knowing where the grapes were grown to produce a particular wine, and that is not even close to the vast general market for wine that has yet to be tapped in the U.S. To tap that market, we should be talking about screw caps on bottles and not appellations.

But for the sake of ending this seemingly endless debate, I concede we are talking around each other.

You should know I love debating; that and a good red is what keeps my heart alive, throw in some garlic too.

Okay, Foodie, let's skip the general definition and relative usefulness of an appellation system. Seems like we've talked ourselves into a pretty boring circular argument on that one. But what do you mean by your reference to Alsace being allowed to add sugar "negated the high status of appellation concept". Precisely what are you talking about and when? All French producers have been encouraged to sugar there wines since Chaptal and most Bordeaux would be pretty thin and sorry stuff without it. No doubt it is a deliberate ploy to wind me up, but I'll fall for it and ask why you're picking on Alsace?

I was using Alsace as a reference point for the dychotomy between north and south appellations. One of the major regulatory battles in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in France was between the high-minded who hated the idea of adding sugar and the others in the north who needed to add it.

In Bordeaux, for instance, the premium guys claimed it should not be done at all, as did those in the south who of course did not need sugar additions.

Incidentally, I am grateful that the Alsatians can beef up the alcohol.

Tom, you are so right. I truly meant to say after the French instituted regulations in the late 19th and early 20th, they were faced with Alsatian practices after the region came home after WWI. They let sugar stand, as they had in Champagne before.

The French did not institute regulations in the late-19th century; it was still the period of formation of syndicats. The AOC system was legally instituted between 22 July 1927 and 30 July 1935, and the earliest regulations they can be traced back to are the laws August 1905 and May 1919, although these were essentially concerned with establishing legal definitions, rather than setting up appellations per se. Champagne was in fact one of the first regions to enshrine its appellation in law, as early as August 1908, although it paid the price of being one of the pioneers when this delimitation led to riots and civil unrest. They're still haggling about the geographical borders of Champagne to this day. The decline in Alsatian viticultural practices was not the result of Germanisation following the Franco-Prussian war, but down to the French in the period prior to this (see my book, page 8).

Have you tasted any of the Gewurztraminers (there are scant few) produced in the Finger Lakes? Producer named Prejean does a wonderful job with the variety, and Vinifera Wine Cellars does too, every so often, as does Standing Stone, although the latter producer seems to have trouble coming up with one that has longevity.

The trick here is that you pick for flavor and you add as much sugar as you need before fermentation to produce solid alcohol level. The benefit of the variety is that it ripens early, offering it the opportunity to miss out on our marvelously dangerous early frosts.