I had no idea I was going to get this many reply, and all of them genuinely helpful too
I'm truly thankful for that

I was expecting to get laughed at

Whilst I have no experience of bodywork I can understand the theory behind it.....I've done 5 minute jobs around the house, and they never take 5 minutes.....I've turned a weekend job in the bathroom into a month long project, so I understand it can happen, I just didn't expect it on this scale

I can't change what's been done, but would like to regain control of the future

If I sit down with the guys what questions should I ask them?
What info would you tell your clients?

I'd like to be confident I'm being charged for the hours they put in, rather than them just billing me to cover their fixed business costs

Ill be honest It appears you are about to be screwed, unless I have not been told something.
With that amount of hours already spent and they are estimating another 8 weeks to block and paint a small car pfttt.
Ask them why it is going to cost so much more than their original quote and is there any way to bring this paint job to a conclusion a little quicker.

WOW, I've heard of shops lathering on the BS to up the bill but something as obvious as saying they had to replace the frame and it was your original frame...it's disgusting and as you mentioned, you wonder what else they did to up the bill...I just wonder how many times they pulled similar stuff like this off and got away with it with other unsuspecting customers.

How did you realize that it was your original frame? Where there tell tale markings on it like numbers or something like that?

Reading through all these posts one thing can be certain is you never know exactly the amount of time and money that will be spent on a particular restoration, I don't care how long you have been doing it. I will give an example of a car I went to give a ball park estimate on about two weeks ago. The car was a 67 mustang fastback that the owner had bought in 1970, not a GT or any special model just a smallblock and a 4 speed. The car has quite a centimental value to it, more so than anything else. First off it has been outside in the new england elements for at least 20 years if not more. First glance and every peice of sheetmetal needs to be replaced, major rot. Interior completly wiped out, as is chrome, stainless. Now we have not even gotton to the running gear, fuel system and all the brake system. Now lets add in all the deteriorated suspension parts as well. Now whenever a car has so much rust you can visually see, what about what you can't see (surprise). I never ever try to lowball the customer just to get the job, in fact I lose out on more jobs because I am brutally honest with them. This guy was figuring around 20 to 30 grand to do ALL this work, and I told him flat out that it would probably be more like that much if not nore just for the metalwork and paint nevermind everything else. So ther are a lot of people that just do not understand what is really involved to do a car so far gone as this one. I had even told him to forget about the car and just go buy one all done for the 20 or 30 grand, but he said no it has to be this car. So the reality of restoreing that exact car for what he is willing to spend just is not being realistic, period.

Reading through all these posts one thing can be certain is you never know exactly the amount of time and money that will be spent on a particular restoration, I don't care how long you have been doing it. I will give an example of a car I went to give a ball park estimate on about two weeks ago. The car was a 67 mustang fastback that the owner had bought in 1970, not a GT or any special model just a smallblock and a 4 speed. The car has quite a centimental value to it, more so than anything else. First off it has been outside in the new england elements for at least 20 years if not more. First glance and every peice of sheetmetal needs to be replaced, major rot. Interior completly wiped out, as is chrome, stainless. Now we have not even gotton to the running gear, fuel system and all the brake system. Now lets add in all the deteriorated suspension parts as well. Now whenever a car has so much rust you can visually see, what about what you can't see (surprise). I never ever try to lowball the customer just to get the job, in fact I lose out on more jobs because I am brutally honest with them. This guy was figuring around 20 to 30 grand to do ALL this work, and I told him flat out that it would probably be more like that much if not nore just for the metalwork and paint nevermind everything else. So ther are a lot of people that just do not understand what is really involved to do a car so far gone as this one. I had even told him to forget about the car and just go buy one all done for the 20 or 30 grand, but he said no it has to be this car. So the reality of restoreing that exact car for what he is willing to spend just is not being realistic, period.

I completely understand what your saying Dennis. I have learned to be very careful as which projects I take on. The amount of work required to do a job isn't always the motivating factor for me. Very often it's the person that is looking to get the work done that will determine if I'm interested in going ahead with a restoration or custom. If a potential customer comes to me for this type of work I want to know who I'm dealing with...if the individual comes across as arrogant, knows it all and is overbearing...I won't take on the job. It just spells trouble in the long run. If, on the other hand, a potential customer comes to me and asks questions, listens and understands if I can't give him a firm price because I don't know what's underneath the obvious and he still wants to get it done...I will be much more likely to take that project on.

I have tried to build a reputation on keeping the customer informed before a major direction change (ie. replace the frame) takes place, documenting everything and having any additional charges signed off by the customer before the additional work, material or parts are purchased. It's almost like a partnership between the customer and myself and as the customer, I hate surprises...I've had to many surprises in the past from the customer that knew everything before I started working on their vehicle.

I posted this to let people know that it is a 2 way street, there are honest people out there that do good work for a fair price, there are customers that are out there that are excellent to work with but, there are those on both sides that make it difficult for the ones either trying to do a good job and earn a living and the customer that just wants value for the dollar they are spending.

Understand everything you are saying Ray, and your right about a good relationship between you and the customer, that is very important that you can trust each other it makes things go much smoother. And this is probably the point that I was trying to make, HONESTY. I could have easily said I could do this mustang I mentioned earlier for 25K. Right away the customer would have probably said o.k. when can I drop it off. Now I know I can not do it that cheap right from the start and I see this happen all to often is a shop will lowball you a price just to get the job in the door then they take full advantage from that point on. So here is a guy that gets quoted a price (that is completely false) and once the work begins they realize that they will be buried in it very quickly. Like the mustang job I gave an example of I could not lead someone down a road that I know for a fact I can't do just to get the income. Not saying that is what happened in this particular case with the OP but people should be well aware of the situation before hand. Bottom line is shops that do this kind of work on a daily basis know you can't quote a full resto type paintjob like your quoting a headgasket on a toyota, too many unknows. That is why I give rough ballpark figures and also why I lose a lot of work as well. Too honest.

I guess since I'm new to all of this I'm probably a bit too naive for my own good

Having said that, I really didn't expect anyone would try and rip me off like this

I haven't told them I know what they're up to. I just told them it was costing too much and that I couldn't afford to continue with the project at this time

I imagine there'd be a bit of trouble if I confront them - especially when they've still got my car. I need to wait until I get it back before I decide what to do

I guess I should just put it behind me and try not to get too bitter about it. I don't want it to eat away at me and spoil something I love

With regards to how I knew it was my chassis.....
There isn't anything as obvious as tags or numbers, but I stripped the car to its bare components myself

I took absolutely everything off the car myself, so I got familiar with things whilst doing the tear down

Also, before I took my car to the shop I did a little welding on the frame myself
I fitted a front crossmember, and a few captive nuts along the main rails

They were some of my very first welds, and they weren't very pretty, so I remember exactly what they look like

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) there's absolutely no doubt they the body is still fitted to my original chassis

I'm picking all my stuff up tomorrow. Fingers crossed I get everything back safe and sound
I'm really so very paranoid right now

Absolutely! DO NOT confront them now, you are broke, that is the reason you are taking it, you can't pay them another dime, you lost your job, what ever. Once you get it, all the parts and all the paper work home, then make up your mind. They are THIEVES just the same as if they had held you up on the street for goodness sakes, friggin scum. Get a couple of friends to help you get the stuff, even if they aren't big tough guys more eyes seeing what they are doing they will be less likely to play games.

The response you gave with respect to how you knew it was your frame reassures me that you are in fact getting ripped off.

Get your vehicle out and as Brian said, bring people with you, to help and to witness...Once you have your vehicle back, the power is now in your hands. Take some time to collect your thoughts on how to proceed and what your next steps will be.

I always hate it when people tell me "if I where you I would.....", so I'm not going to make any suggestions on recourse, I'm sure you can make the right decisions all by yourself.

it's very hard to please the customer cause they simply don't know what's involved. Heck, we don't even know what the car was like. It is a small car but there's so many issues when dealing with bodywork that when you're doing old cars there's a lot to deal with. As a body man, I'll tell you straight up, and sorry to offend anyone, but bodywork IS the hardest thing to do in a shop when the quality is good. Everyone seems to think it's just a piece of cake to make everything near perfect but it's not. So when you pick up your car don't just go thanking the painter cause good body men make painters better, but when they buff it out perfect they return the favor. The unsung heros in a shop, the guys doing the dirty work, and the ones always pissing people off over time due to a lack of understanding of what the job entails. I did a 55 Chevy quarter two months ago and the boss thought it was an 8 hour job. Me and the old man just laughed at that one. They knew about some of the stuff I dealt with but they didn't know about the lower rear body panel pushed in, they didn't consider all the contours that had to be cut and welded. Turned out to be more like a 32 hour job but in the end it was worth it.

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