Sin is essentially a summon. It is formed from Pyreflies, just like unsent spirits, Fayth, summons, or fiends, and was created by Yu Yevon in ancient Zanarkand. In the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle in Tidus' time (1000 years ago), Bevelle began gaining the upper hand. Eventually Zanarkand was all but guaranteed to fall. So Yu Yevon summoned Sin by leveraging the souls of several people remaining in Zanarkand (including himself), turning said people into the Fayth. Each Fayth has a corresponding minor summon attached to it, which essentially are parts that make up Sin as the ultimate summon. Gaining these summons on your pilgrimage and using them to defeat Sin (sacrificing the summoner in the process) affords Spira another ten years of prosperity before Sin's gravity magic allows it to gather enough Pyreflies to reform again. However, if you instead turn on the summons, killing them, Yu Yevon has no choice but to try and defend himself. Defeat him, and the summoning of Sin stops with him, preventing Sin from returning.

so when Auron time traveled with Sin to reach Tidus he wasn't really time traveling? He was going into the dreams of the faith to communicate with Tidus and somehow using Sin to bring Tidus into the real world?

So Tidus is kinda like Neo, except he only exists in a dream state since the real he is dead.

That's the most logical assumption. Since Auron is unsent, making contact with Sin would theoretically allow him to interact with the dream of the Fayth and Yu Yevon. Using that, he could find the memory of Tidus, and essentially allow him to be 'recreated' in present time Spira using unsent pyreflies, just as with himself. I don't think the game ever outright says that specific pyreflies are linked to specific people, meaning Tidus' memory could reform using any of them. And even if there was a restriction, the assumption would be that he was never sent, since I don't think sending existed until the Yevon religion came around to combat Sin and the fiends. So simply bringing Tidus' memories into present Spira could attract his original pyreflies.

That's the most logical assumption. Since Auron is unsent, making contact with Sin would theoretically allow him to interact with the dream of the Fayth and Yu Yevon. Using that, he could find the memory of Tidus, and essentially allow him to be 'recreated' in present time Spira using unsent pyreflies, just as with himself. I don't think the game ever outright says that specific pyreflies are linked to specific people, meaning Tidus' memory could reform using any of them. And even if there was a restriction, the assumption would be that he was never sent, since I don't think sending existed until the Yevon religion came around to combat Sin and the fiends. So simply bringing Tidus' memories into present Spira could attract his original pyreflies.

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which is weird because why would the fayth have a dream about Sin attacking them.

I'm thinking maybe Jecht was the exception. So Jecht told Auron to go back for his kid b/c he knew he was most likely going to become Sin. Then Tidus traveled through time and learned from Jecht/ Lord Braska's journey.

oh I get it, the faith can only dream up of things as they occur. so I guess Auron going back when Sin was attacking Zanarkand was a good moment to get Tidus so that he could more readily accept something really far out was going on...

Jecht had entered Spira after coming upon Sin. According to the fayth of Ifrit, Sin swam in these waters to ease its pain on that day; as Jecht touched him, "he became real", and was washed ashore somewhere near Bevelle

I think basically what it's saying is that Jecht died alongside everyone else in Zanarkand (and wherever else was attacked) on the day Sin first appeared. Dream Jecht found Sin, and was recreated in modern Spira, because that's where Sin actually existed at that point. He travels with Braska and Auron, cleans his act up, and then chooses to become Sin in place of Braska (despite Braska still needing to die in order to bring about the Calm... Auron also dying too). That allows Jecht to send Auron's memory to the dream of Zanarkand's destruction, so he can collect Tidus' memory.

This is all speculation though, since the only place any of this info presumably exists is within the Japanese Ultimania books.

I think basically what it's saying is that Jecht died alongside everyone else in Zanarkand (and wherever else was attacked) on the day Sin first appeared. Dream Jecht found Sin, and was recreated in modern Spira, because that's where Sin actually existed at that point. He travels with Braska and Auron, cleans his act up, and then chooses to become Sin in place of Braska (despite Braska still needing to die in order to bring about the Calm... Auron also dying too). That allows Jecht to send Auron's memory to the dream of Zanarkand's destruction, so he can collect Tidus' memory.

This is all speculation though, since the only place any of this info presumably exists is within the Japanese Ultimania books.

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Jecht tells Auron to find a way to get his kid back since Jecht knows he will merge with Yunalesca/ Sin and Braska will die summoning the final aeon. So Auron, pissed off about the deaths of Jecht and Lord Braska after they beat Sin goes back to confront Yunalesca and dies trying to fight her. Once he's dead he uses Sin to find Jecht's memory of Tidus in Zanarkand.

the hymm, tidus knows it before he goes to Spira, because Jecht sang it to him all the time. it's unclear if that was a dream jecht singing to tidus after he had already died in spira or the real jecht. so there's a chance tidus may be real.

I'm starting to think Jecht is sorta a God figure. the hymm and blitzball stuff could have been passed down over the generations. also, when sin was created Jecht may have been the first person yu yevon used to create it.

or it could be Jecht is somehow the first REAL person from ancient zanarkand to enter Spira. THis could mean there's a chance TIdus is real too.

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That's the part I was confused about. We know that Tidus is dead during the events of the game. He may have died (and most likely did) during Sin's first attack. Or it's also possible that he died when entering Spira I suppose. But that makes less sense, doesn't come with an explanation, and doesn't have much of an impact anyway since we know by the end that he's been dead the whole time. I would assume the hymn is just a song from Tidus' time that was appropriated by the Yevon religion, and used as the Hymn of the Fayth. Maybe it was a summoners song from ancient Zanarkand or something.

The game probably just has some inconsistencies. I mean, knowing Tidus is dead, why can he enter/exit the Farplane in Guadosalam, but Auron can't?

EDIT: I don't think Jecht was roped into Yu Yevon's summoning of Sin. The question that leaves me with, is why he never appeared to help any other summoner truly defeat Sin over the next thousand years?

I'm starting to think maybe Tidus time traveled. at the end when he disappears it could be he disappears because they defeat yu yevon and so somehow yu yevon exists on a different plane and defeating it means there never is a Sin and Bevelle loses the war so tidus goes back to his own time.

or it could be Jecht is somehow the first REAL person from ancient zanarkand to enter Spira. THis could mean there's a chance TIdus is real too.

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That's the part I was confused about. We know that Tidus is dead during the events of the game. He may have died (and most likely did) during Sin's first attack. Or it's also possible that he died when entering Spira I suppose. But that makes less sense, doesn't come with an explanation, and doesn't have much of an impact anyway since we know by the end that he's been dead the whole time. I would assume the hymn is just a song from Tidus' time that was appropriated by the Yevon religion, and used as the Hymn of the Fayth. Maybe it was a summoners song from ancient Zanarkand or something.

The game probably just has some inconsistencies. I mean, knowing Tidus is dead, why can he enter/exit the Farplane in Guadosalam, but Auron can't?

EDIT: I don't think Jecht was roped into Yu Yevon's summoning of Sin. The question that leaves me with, is why he never appeared to help any other summoner truly defeat Sin over the next thousand years?

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he disappears before SIn attacks Zanarkand in the beginning. so maybe that was him going back to try to get tidus. and auron piggy-backed on the ride.

The problem with that is that there's so much more evidence to support the idea that Tidus was simply dead, no time travel or multiverse theory required. All that really does is opens up a ton of questions, not to mention show that the story is absolutely terrible at conveying any of what was going on, lol. At that point you're starting to head into "Squall is Dead", "Indoctrination Theory" territory, where the explanation for any plot holes is 'anything can happen when time travel and multiverses are involved'.

The problem with that is that there's so much more evidence to support the idea that Tidus was simply dead, no time travel or multiverse theory required. All that really does is opens up a ton of questions, not to mention show that the story is absolutely terrible at conveying any of what was going on, lol. At that point you're starting to head into "Squall is Dead", "Indoctrination Theory" territory, where the explanation for any plot holes is 'anything can happen when time travel and multiverses are involved'.

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I guess the multiverse would only exist so that Yuna and the gang can exist. So Tidus can somehow find her. or vice versa.

Jecht got lost at sea when he disappeared. portal? or discovered a temple or something. then when he landed on spira and touched sin he became real? b/c it was a time paradox. when Jecht becomes Sin he goes back to find Tidus but in Tidus's reality that's happening in real time so history records it as Sin being the outcome of things going to far and destroying Zanarkand. Tidus can also "feel" sin.

Yu Yevon is somehow just a ball of energy of time or some shit.

Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago He was peerless. Yet now he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil. He is awake, yet he dreams. But... maybe not forever.
—Fayth

if tidus didn't actually die in zanarkand. if he did then he is also an unsent, which wouldn't make him a dream...

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But it would. I think you're a bit confused, and it's causing you to overthink things. Tidus is both unsent and a dream. So here's how it works:

Tidus died in real life, just like we see in the beginning. Jecht does too. What we see in the beginning is not those real events though. In the real version, Sin comes, destroys everything, and he dies... that's it. No Fayth child comes to talk to him. Auron doesn't come try and save him. None of that. The real Tidus and Jecht remain unsent. So their pyrflies are still wandering modern Spira 1000 years later. NOTE: Another just as likely option is that the Fayth can dream any memories of the unsent people's pyreflies that make up Sin.

Okay, so the Fayth can dream of any parts of the past that involve Sin, because they are part of Sin along with Yu Yevon. This means that- as the Fayth start to get tired and just want peace- they can meddle in these dreams of these events. That's important to note; the Fayth are tired of dreaming, and want to be sent. So, by placing Sin in a dream where the dream of Jecht can interact with it, they can attract the pyrflies that make up his unsent form. It 'gives him life' in modern Spira, by attracting the pyrflies, which reform his unsent memory/body... whatever you want to call it. They aren't reaching through time or anything like that, so much as just using his memories to collect his essence in modern Spira.

The same goes for Tidus. Jecht's unsent form chooses to become part of Sin, Braska dies, and then Auron later dies. Because Jecht is part of Sin, and Auron is now dead but unsent, Jecht and the Fayth can send Auron into the dream of Sin's first attack (just like they can send Sin into dreams he didn't originally exist in). This allows him to find Tidus in the dream, which -just like Jecht- attracts his pyreflies and reforms his unsent memory/body. In short, they never interact with the real Jecht or Tidus in the past. They use the memories of them to attract their still wandering souls in the present.

Essentially, one of the best characters in the game. Tried to kick some toughness into his wimpy girly emo son and his son responded by crying more and hating mom paying attention to his dad instead of him.

Essentially, one of the best characters in the game. Tried to kick some toughness into his wimpy girly emo son and his son responded by crying more and hating mom paying attention to his dad instead of him.

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Wow, super manly of you to say that! Making up for some deficiencies you're self-conscious of little boy?

Simple. Seymour is dead at that point. So his unsent spirit can become part of Sin (that's part of his goal... become part of Sin, learn to control Sin, and cleanse the world of life so that the pain and suffering life Spira endures no longer happens). And until he's sent, he does have all the time in the world; because he's already dead.

"Summoners challenge the bringer of death, Sin, and die doing so. Guardians give their lives to protect their summoner. The fayth are the souls of the dead. Even the maesters of Yevon are unsent. Spira is full of death... only Sin is reborn, and then only to bring more death. It is a cycle of death, spiraling endlessly."

Essentially, one of the best characters in the game. Tried to kick some toughness into his wimpy girly emo son and his son responded by crying more and hating mom paying attention to his dad instead of him.

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Wow, super manly of you to say that! Making up for some deficiencies you're self-conscious of little boy?

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Remember everyone! Zaxo can defend Tidus to the death, but if you hate Tidus for being an Emo whiny tantrum throwing bitch of a character that you find impossible to empathize with, he will start insulting you.

Essentially, one of the best characters in the game. Tried to kick some toughness into his wimpy girly emo son and his son responded by crying more and hating mom paying attention to his dad instead of him.

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Wow, super manly of you to say that! Making up for some deficiencies you're self-conscious of little boy?

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Remember everyone! Zaxo can defend Tidus to the death, but if you hate Tidus for being an Emo whiny tantrum throwing bitch of a character that you find impossible to empathize with, he will start insulting you.

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First of all, you're very unlikely to get anyone to 'join your side' against me, or whatever you're trying to do there. Second of all, it's not about you disliking Tidus. If you do, that's totally fine. But at least give legitimate reasons, and back them up, rather than spending just two sentences insulting him, and by extension people who enjoy his character, all while disrespecting the work of the developers.

And that's to say nothing about the fact that such discussion doesn't belong in this thread. You are not 'unique' or 'cool' for interjecting into conversations about something else entirely, so you can let everyone know you hate Tidus. Congratulations... in this thread, nobody cares. It makes you look like you're just crying out for attention... sounds pretty similar to how you describe Tidus actually.

so when Auron time traveled with Sin to reach Tidus he wasn't really time traveling? He was going into the dreams of the faith to communicate with Tidus and somehow using Sin to bring Tidus into the real world?

So Tidus is kinda like Neo, except he only exists in a dream state since the real he is dead.

Wow, super manly of you to say that! Making up for some deficiencies you're self-conscious of little boy?

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Remember everyone! Zaxo can defend Tidus to the death, but if you hate Tidus for being an Emo whiny tantrum throwing bitch of a character that you find impossible to empathize with, he will start insulting you.

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First of all, you're very unlikely to get anyone to 'join your side' against me, or whatever you're trying to do there. Second of all, it's not about you disliking Tidus. If you do, that's totally fine. But at least give legitimate reasons, and back them up, rather than spending just two sentences insulting him, and by extension people who enjoy his character, all while disrespecting the work of the developers.

And that's to say nothing about the fact that such discussion doesn't belong in this thread. You are not 'unique' or 'cool' for interjecting into conversations about something else entirely, so you can let everyone know you hate Tidus. Congratulations... in this thread, nobody cares. It makes you look like you're just crying out for attention... sounds pretty similar to how you describe Tidus actually.

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I did give legitimate reasons. He is a crybaby. An emo, tantrum throwing wimp of a main character.
You just don't like the reasons I gave. What could be more legitimate than hating that style of character? In real life, I would dislike that sort of person.

I think I have made it pretty clear I hate his character and that someone legit like Auron should have been the main character, with Tidus more of a sideshow secondary flavor. At no point did I target Tidus fans, or the developers when talking about why I hate him in that sentence. you did that by bringing them into it and taking my hatred of the character personally, like it is some affront to you.

His character is impossible to like or for me to empathize with, and I legit mean it when I say I empathized with his father for trying to toughen him up.

Jecht by extension was the character I bonded with the most in this game. You HAVE to drive it into your kids heads that if you whine and be a wimp, you will get picked on more. Its life and never going to change. Tidus was just a typical ungrateful kid, and his dad was the hero who made the ultimate sacrifice to become Sin and save the world.

Hahaha! You're so ridiculous, it's amazing. I would actually respond to your points, except as I said, this conversation doesn't belong in this thread. I'm not dumb man; I've been around this block before. The way you so harshly word things, the fact that you are willing to jump so readily into insanely extreme opinions, the lack of meaningful explanation to back your opinions up, the willingness to ignore the point of a thread just to sling such opinions... I've seen it all before a million times. You don't care about debate, exploration of topics, or actual conversation. You're an opinion regurgitation machine; an unoriginal robot who likes to speak, not think. You're so convinced that people want to hear your opinions. I mean, just look at your sig... it's so hilariously, intentionally trying to be loud and offensive. You're a troll who doesn't understand he's a troll. Grow up or go away.

EDIT: Bottom line, I don't have to prove my worth here. You do. I'm more than willing to converse ad nauseam about stuff like this... with people who can be respectful of the art they're talking about, the work and passion that goes into it, and can wary of when their words can come off as insulting to the tastes of others. Until then, your not worth any more of my time.

Hahaha! You're so ridiculous, it's amazing. I would actually respond to your points, except as I said, this conversation doesn't belong in this thread. I'm not dumb man; I've been around this block before. The way you so harshly word things, the fact that you are willing to jump so readily into insanely extreme opinions, the lack of meaningful explanation to back your opinions up, the willingness to ignore the point of a thread just to sling such opinions... I've seen it all before a million times. You don't care about debate, exploration of topics, or actual conversation. You're an opinion regurgitation machine; an unoriginal robot who likes to speak, not think. You're so convinced that people want to hear your opinions. I mean, just look at your sig... it's so hilariously, intentionally trying to be loud and offensive. You're a troll who doesn't understand he's a troll. Grow up or go away.

EDIT: Bottom line, I don't have to prove my worth here. You do. I'm more than willing to converse ad nauseam about stuff like this... with people who can be respectful of the art they're talking about, the work and passion that goes into it, and can wary of when their words can come off as insulting to the tastes of others. Until then, your not worth any more of my time.

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Blah blah. The thread asked "What is sin" and I responded. It was a quick text on my phone since I did not have a computer handy where I was at. Quite frankly, Jecht/Sin was the most human character in the game. The one I empathized with the most being a father on the road and often mitigating the highs and lows with alcohol. Oh so sorry for not writing a detailed essay. I keep it simple and to the point when I am texting on my phone.

You turned it into a personal attack against me, acting like it is some personal affront to you that I despise the wimpy beta character and empathize with the strong alpha male father(The subject of this topic), demanding "Legitimate" reasons for hating him, as if its somehow not a legit grievance to strongly dislike wimpy beta males who whine about daddy not coddling him enough and mommy ignoring him when Daddy is around in the main character role.

You somehow think people need to "Take a side" in this argument. I took a shot at a character I hate while praising the father, you chose to take a shot at me and I responded by calling you out for taking a shot at anyone who dislikes Tidus. I don't even know where that came from, you went straight to a personal attack. I think you are dreaming up scenarios where anyone who hates Tidus must be trying to start a war, as evidenced by your "You are not going to get people on your side against me!" rant. There is no taking sides. Its an opinion and you turned it personal. Someone asked a question, I answered a quick text answer with intent on filling in the blanks later. YOU turned it into a attack. You usually do and shove in your opinion every single time Tidus name is brought up.

Wait a second. Are you that guy from a couple years ago who I had this exact conversation with already?

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I don't recall that I have ever had a conversation with you. I may have chimed in here and there. But I rarely post, usually just skimming content. I have seen you have this exact conversation with people multiple times.

Tidus being a hated main character is not exactly uncommon(In fact he is in the conversation for worst main character most of the time), and you seem to get involved whenever it gets brought up

Not really. This place is dead, and that conversation rarely happens anyway. Besides, I don't generally chime in on stuff like that unless someone seems like they've got a lot of meaningful things to say about the subject, or unless they're an asshole. I don't really care too much for Tidus; if you get that impression, that's your problem. I only defend him as a well crafted character, not his personality as a whole. That's so subjective that I honestly don't give a hell what anyone thinks about him. He's not remarkable enough for me to care.

But I'm still wondering if you are that guy. The guy who said he prefers his characters to have a military/fighting background of some sort, if they're going to lead a group of people who're actually fighting to save the world. The guy who used that as a reason why he respected what they did with Squall, despite also believing he was a 'whiny, emo' character. If so, that is genuinely the only time I recall having an extended conversation about Tidus on here (or probably anywhere) in the last few years.

"Dream" Zanarkand is not in the past actually. It's physicaly present on Spira in current time. It's location is somewhere around the destroyed Baaj temple. That's why Jecht could come in contact with Sin by swimming far enough into the sea/ocean. People just don't find it because Sin is kinda wrecking all ships that try to sail around and there are no air ships except the one from the party.

Dream Zanarkand is a summon, just like Ifrit for example, that is as big as the whole city. What Yu Yevon summoned when Zanarkand was about to fall was not Sin but the Aeon Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand is based on the memmories of the faith used to summon it.
Sin is just an armor made out of pyreflies that Yu Yevon gathers around him to protect him.
Technicaly you could fly to Dream Zanarkand if you'd manage to avoid Sin. But Sin's protecting Yu Yevon and Dream Zanarkand on instinct so he doesn't let anyone close to it.

The word "dream" is not really good at discribing Tidus. He's just a part of an aeon and is as real as aeons are on Spira. When you beat Yu Yevon, he stops summoning and that's why Tidus is gone.

But that still means the existence of everything in this summoned Zanarkand was real in the past, yeah? So effectively it is still a dream in a sense, it's just one you can interact with just like anything that comes from the Farplane, right?

The goal was to preserve Zanarkand even it was only a memory. So Ye Yevon is summoning Dream Zanarkand based, we really don't know how accurately he does that, on the memories of the faith. I totally can see being called a dream.
So yes, people in Dream Zanarkand did really exist 1000 year ago but we don't know if they're a 100% repplica since memories can be vague. I totally can see Tidus being based on Shuyin, so there would be no "real" Tidus 1000 years in the past.

You can see it as a dream but it's really just an aeon and all the rules apply to it. Dream Zanarkand and it's citizen can interact with the "real world" just like Aeon usually do.

Though I like X-2 as a game, I never really paid much attention to the story. So if Shuyin was effectively the 'real' Tidus from the real Zanarkand, that makes perfect sense.

So then that would mean Auron isn't like Tidus or Jecht them, in that he's the true unsent form of who he really was. And I just realized, where does his aging come in? He looks much younger in the Sphere's of Braska's pilgrimage. Does he die near the end of the Calm, or still somehow age as an unsent? And how does he react with the summoned Zanarkand? Does he swim there, lol? Or go through Sin somehow? So many questions that -while they don't really need definitive answers- I can't recall whether the game answers or alludes to or not.

Auron is obviously the "real" deal yeah. With Jecht and Tidus there really is no confirmation whenever they had exactly the same past versions.
Thou you could see all DZ citizen as new people merely base on people in the past.

Auron aging never made sense to me as well. lol Maybe he can controll it and made himself look older? -_- He did die when he was as young as in the flashbacks. I mean we even see the scene where he dies, or shortly after.
He rode Sin to Zanarkand, he himself says that in the game I think. Sin visits DZ a lot after all. He's kinda chilling/resting on it's shore, especially the Jecht version. Visiting Tidus sort of would be highly likely.

Actually, yeah... I do seem to recall Auron mentioning that he rode Sin to Zanarkand now that you mention it. What exactly that means, um... I just imagine him riding on Sin's back like it's a rodeo bull, lol.

"Dream" Zanarkand is not in the past actually. It's physicaly present on Spira in current time. It's location is somewhere around the destroyed Baaj temple. That's why Jecht could come in contact with Sin by swimming far enough into the sea/ocean. People just don't find it because Sin is kinda wrecking all ships that try to sail around and there are no air ships except the one from the party.

Dream Zanarkand is a summon, just like Ifrit for example, that is as big as the whole city. What Yu Yevon summoned when Zanarkand was about to fall was not Sin but the Aeon Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand is based on the memmories of the faith used to summon it.
Sin is just an armor made out of pyreflies that Yu Yevon gathers around him to protect him.
Technicaly you could fly to Dream Zanarkand if you'd manage to avoid Sin. But Sin's protecting Yu Yevon and Dream Zanarkand on instinct so he doesn't let anyone close to it.

The word "dream" is not really good at discribing Tidus. He's just a part of an aeon and is as real as aeons are on Spira. When you beat Yu Yevon, he stops summoning and that's why Tidus is gone.

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I just beat Dark Valefor and made it back to Besaid temple. Its fayth is telling me to "free" sin by defeating Yu Yevon.