rickycal78: Not so, Justice introduced a 11 year old me to metal that wasn't the glam/hair metal I was used to hearing on the radio back in those days.

Well, I'm glad that at least someone got something out of it - and I'm sad that you couldn't have heard something better that wasn't glam.

Where I grew up I was lucky to have even the one radio station that played any kind of rock. Every other radio station in that area was either country or top 40. The only reason I found anything heavier at the time was because of the older sister of one of my friends and one of my uncles. My buddy's sister had a bunch of Judas Priest, Metallica, Suicidal Tendencies, Exodus, and some of the glam stuff. Then one day I discovered my uncle's music collection that had stuff from Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Judas Priest, and lots of Iron Maiden.

Hetfield has always been one of the greatest rhythm guitarist ever in metal.

As for the influence of Cliff, et al, I simply put forth that after Cliff died they brought in Jason. Listen to the albums by Flotsam & Jetsam with Jason, then listen for And Justice For All. Sound familiar? Like VERY familiar? His influence (though washed out in mixing) was all over that album, then they went and hired Bob Rock as a producer. For some reason, Rob Trujillo is asked to contribute very little musically, and I think that's because Bob Rock convinced them they were all musical masters, when inf act, Rob could play circles around all of them put together musically. I've seen Rob live with many other bands, and that dude is farking talented.

Once the Black Album went big, Metallica was writing their own future and could do anything they wanted. They were surrounded by Yes Men that were telling them everything sounds great. Hell, Bob Rock,l their farking producer, played Bass for them in the studio for a while. He was so enamored with them, he wanted to be one of them. Some Kind Of Monster was the final nail in their coffin. Props to Hetfield for getting sober, and sticking to his guns about time spent with the band and recording and all that (when it comes to recovery, he has to make the rules), but the whole mess was a whiny biatchfest. And the fans ate it up.

These new fans were the ones they used to make fun of, the ones they used to hate, they became exactly what they used to rail against. Is it selling out? Well, I don't know a single person in a band that plays original music that is doing it for charity, they all want to make it big, be rich and have loads of women, drugs and booze. I don't call it so much selling out as it was finding the perfect fit musically for as many people's tastes as possible.

In closing, Metallica are not sellouts, they are to metal what McDonald's is to Fast Food. Metallica is nothing more than a business. They are not a band, they are a business. They craft music with marketing in mind for it. I'll also add Metallica is America's answer to Nickelback. That's right, Metallica is no better than Nickelback anymore, and should be universally loathed for the same reasons

DontBeSoDigital:A band like Nickelback wouldn't even dare to make an album like Lulu, nor would Lou Reed even give them the time or day.

LuLu sounded like an old man reading bad poetry over his grandsons garage band. St. Anger was such a misfire, it's amazing it was greenlit by the distributor, but this goes back to my statement about Yes Men. Metallica can do anything at this point and their loyal fans will eat it up as the greatest thing since the last thing they did.

Death Magnetic was a bloated mess with terrible producing and mixing (the master tapes were ok which can be found on the Guitair Hero series). Songs were far longer than they needed to be, stupid intros that had nothing to do with the songs, hardly any solos, and all around horrid lyrics (though admittedly not nearly as bad as St. anger lyrics). They were trying to be something and missed the mark and what we, the fans got, was an overly loud mess, with some ok moments in the mix. I've personally tried remixing the songs to make them straight forward hard rock and metal songs, and was somewhat successful with it. I also know there were tons of torrents available (which gave me the idea to try it myself) that were all much better than their finished product.

Since Cliff's death, they have released 7 proper albums. That's about an album every 4 years. None of them are as metal as anything done with Cliff, and only 1 came close. Cliff was the heart and soul of the band, and was in charge of arrangements, chord changes and completely in control of the muscial direction. I offer up these 6 mediocre albums that had none of his influence on them as proof.

The majority of the songs were all over the 3-6 minute sweet spot most songs fall into. Granted much of their earlier works from Kill 'Em All to ...And Justice for All did too, they managed to not feel bloated. What HST's Dead Carcass mentioned about lousy production values and intro's that didn't mesh with the main body of the song are what made them seem too long. Death Magnetic seemed like it had a lot of potential, but the way it was put together sounded like shiat. Not to mention Jame's voice seemed to be going to hell too.

rickycal78:kab: HST's Dead Carcass: Songs were far longer than they needed to be

The pop music thread is that way --->

The majority of the songs were all over the 3-6 minute sweet spot most songs fall into. Granted much of their earlier works from Kill 'Em All to ...And Justice for All did too, they managed to not feel bloated. What HST's Dead Carcass mentioned about lousy production values and intro's that didn't mesh with the main body of the song are what made them seem too long. Death Magnetic seemed like it had a lot of potential, but the way it was put together sounded like shiat. Not to mention Jame's voice seemed to be going to hell too.

I still argue that had St. Anger and Death Magnetic had any other band name on the albums, they wouldn't have sold jack squat. The brand name of Metallica sold those albums, the music that is on them was not worth the millions of CD sales.

From what I can tell from looking them up it appears they broke up. Also note the time that the demo he posted was done. Early 90s, by that time the rock/metal scene was getting bloated with the various grunge bands of the day.

Vomit Rock sucks, learn to sing/scream. I hate it when the singer sounds like a cat trying to upchuck a hairball. Many many otherwise great bands have been reduced to the unlistenable category by a vomiter instead of a screamer or singer.

Mike Chewbacca:Real Women Drink Akvavit: I musically broke up with Metallica during the Napster shenanigans and the whole testifying in front of congress thing. Like none of them ever made a mix tape. Douchebags should have been grateful.

/better quality than a mix tape made over the radio just means less people will think you suck//maybe

Waaaaah! I can't steal music as easily off the Internet as I used to! I love Metallica but I don't want to actually pay them for their product! Waaaaah!

/Just bought one of Eric Calderone's (AKA erock) albums because his YouTube channel is great and I've gotten many hours of enjoyment from it. I won't listen to it very often, but I want this guy to get rich.

Actually, if you'd pull your head out of Ulrich's nether regions long enough to learn something about the mysterious instrument you are using to sling your assumptions, you'd know that in order to play anything you find online - anything - your box has to load it first. It's already in your TIF/cache (depends on your OS) so I never used things like Napster. I was deeply offended by the whining about how downloads were costing them so much money that we ended up with the computer age version of jackbooted thugs who were suing people who didn't even know what Napster was (or little old people who didn't even use a computer and settling out of court for $5,000 a pop cuz they couldn't afford a lawyer) and the hypocrisy of whining about people with crappy skillz downloading, not over the fact they were doing so, but over the fact that the quality was so much better they didn't have to buy the album to see how Metallica truly sounds.

This is computer 101 stuff. No need to illegally download anything when you can find it on the internet somewhere (in many cases, on the band's own website/MySpace page), play it and they just give it to you on your hard drive. If you like it, pull it out of your TIF/cache and buy something from the band. If you don't - nuke it. Easy and hardly illegal or immoral.

One of my favorite places to find new, mostly unsigned, bands right now and just pull the stuff out of my cache is Mikseri. I then contact the bands if I like them and buy some of their swag so they actually get monies and stuff. If I don't *digital version of mushroom cloud goes here*. I've got some really nifty stuff now, some from bands that no longer exist, which makes me sad, but they got beer money straight to them from me. It's win-win.

Loneman1:mooseyfate: poot_rootbeer: Rob Trujillo has been a member of Metallica for more than twice as long as Cliff ever was.

Yeah, during the worst years. Also, he's only been with the band for ONE studio release which is best described as forgettable, as opposed to the three groundbreaking, Metallica-shaping albums that Cliff was a huge part of. Nice try, though. I'm sure if no one in this thread knew fark-all about Metallica, that might have been a good post for you.

While I am probably one of the bigger Metallica supporters a person could probably ever meet and I may be a bit biased, but to call "Death Magnetic" really forgettable, I can't agree with you on that. It had quite a few really solid songs on there, definitely a throwback to their earlier stuff. It might not be quite in the same league as Puppets, but it is one of their more solid albums IMO.

I think Death Magnetic is one of their weakest albums. It's the only one of their albums that feels to me like they were doing it for someone other than themselves. every riff seemed like they were writing it because it's what they thought other people wanted to hear. the lyrics had no heart backing them up, it's like James wrote the most generic shiat he could think up. you may not like St. Anger ('you' in the whoever is reading this sense), but you can't really say that what James was singing about wasn't from his heart. While Death Magnetic has some 'cool' riffs, the whole thing feels uninspired.

Vomit Rock sucks, learn to sing/scream. I hate it when the singer sounds like a cat trying to upchuck a hairball. Many many otherwise great bands have been reduced to the unlistenable category by a vomiter instead of a screamer or singer.

HST's Dead Carcass:rickycal78: kab: HST's Dead Carcass: Songs were far longer than they needed to be

The pop music thread is that way --->

The majority of the songs were all over the 3-6 minute sweet spot most songs fall into. Granted much of their earlier works from Kill 'Em All to ...And Justice for All did too, they managed to not feel bloated. What HST's Dead Carcass mentioned about lousy production values and intro's that didn't mesh with the main body of the song are what made them seem too long. Death Magnetic seemed like it had a lot of potential, but the way it was put together sounded like shiat. Not to mention Jame's voice seemed to be going to hell too.

I still argue that had St. Anger and Death Magnetic had any other band name on the albums, they wouldn't have sold jack squat. The brand name of Metallica sold those albums, the music that is on them was not worth the millions of CD sales.

I'll agree on St. Anger, but based on the singles that were released I can see people taking a chance and picking up Death Magnetic. I actually liked The Day That Never Comes and one of the variations of Cyanide (wasn't the studio version) that I heard before looking up the rest of the album and deciding not to get it.

The majority of the songs were all over the 3-6 minute sweet spot most songs fall into. Granted much of their earlier works from Kill 'Em All to ...And Justice for All did too, they managed to not feel bloated. What HST's Dead Carcass mentioned about lousy production values and intro's that didn't mesh with the main body of the song are what made them seem too long. Death Magnetic seemed like it had a lot of potential, but the way it was put together sounded like shiat. Not to mention Jame's voice seemed to be going to hell too.

I still argue that had St. Anger and Death Magnetic had any other band name on the albums, they wouldn't have sold jack squat. The brand name of Metallica sold those albums, the music that is on them was not worth the millions of CD sales.

I'll agree on St. Anger, but based on the singles that were released I can see people taking a chance and picking up Death Magnetic. I actually liked The Day That Never Comes and one of the variations of Cyanide (wasn't the studio version) that I heard before looking up the rest of the album and deciding not to get it.

Forgot to mention the instrumental from Death Magnetic that helped make it seem like a return to form, Suicide and Redemption, that was one of the gems on that album.

I'll also say this, there were portions of various songs on St. Anger that were good, but somehow were surrounded by shiat. I'm not sure if it was some kind of fluke, or if the good parts of these songs were the initial riffs that was built off of to finish the song, but the end result was a bunch of over all crap.

Bandcamp is also awesome this way. That's how I found Screaming Savior and I think Forgotten Tomb as well. Datassette for all you electronic music fans too.

I like a wide variety of music, but mostly metal, pretty heavy on the Nordic bands, so I love Mikseri, but will definitely check out Bandcamp as this is the first I've heard of it. Thanks, dude! I love finding new stuff, no matter from what country it hails. My music philosophy is the same one I use for food. If you like it, screw what other people think and enjoy!

Heh. On the radio station portion of Mikseri they added a "download MP3" button ages ago. (Some of the band pages have the same thing for some, if not all, of their songs). I just keep forgetting to use it I'm so used to pulling things out of my cache. Not only that, it plays the song again as it is downloading, and I may not necessarily want to hear the song a second time right that moment. I just want it for the future, or am undecided on the band in general and giving them a chance to give me an ear worm.

Real Women Drink Akvavit:I was deeply offended by the whining about how downloads were costing them so much money that we ended up with the computer age version of jackbooted thugs who were suing people who didn't even know what Napster was (or little old people who didn't even use a computer and settling out of court for $5,000 a pop cuz they couldn't afford a lawyer) and the hypocrisy of whining about people with crappy skillz downloading, not over the fact they were doing so, but over the fact that the quality was so much better they didn't have to buy the album to see how Metallica truly sounds.

To be fair, you're leaving out the part where unreleased music Metallica were working on at the time (I think it was a demo for what would later be "Fuel") was ripped from their hard drives by hackers then shared over Napster, and that whole ordeal was Lars's main gripe. On the one hand, it's pretty enviable and telling of how big Metallica were that their fans were so ravenous for new art they'd go to that end--but on the other hand, it's not exactly the fan-liest or most ethical thing to hack one's favorite artist's data, rip their half-baked music, and distribute it either.

For what it's worth, Lars has since pulled a 180 on how he feels about Metallica's music being freely available on the Internet (as I recall, he specifically cited the benefit of the easy availability of their music holds for metalheads in countries where Metallica, metal, and all secular music are straight up illegal/banned), but he'll never be able to shake that RIAA figurehead image ascribed to him by the peanut gallery, probably because he was the best known and (sadly) most ironic voice in the public arena on the issue.

I'm not saying any iteration of Lars's opinion is purely in the right or wrong on the much bigger filesharing/Internet piracy issue, just that, in the big picture, the whole Ulrich v Napster case (NOT RIAA v Grandma) is much less black and white than how popular history seems to remember it--and that, in the smaller picture, your comparison of copy/pasting readily available streaming music from a cache doesn't equate with savvy hackers tracking down an IP, cracking its node, accessing and downloading a popular artist's unfinished work, then sharing it with the world.

Holy crap! I didn't know that Cultes des Ghoules would have a new album this year - that's the best news I've had all week. Also, glad to see that Abhorer's albums will finally be available. Good on ya, HHR.

They may not be what they once were, but I'd still wet my pants if I got to meet Hetfield today. Then I'd go back in time and tell my 14-year old self who just heard Blackened for the first time all about it.

AnotherBluesStringer:mooseyfate: poot_rootbeer: Rob Trujillo has been a member of Metallica for more than twice as long as Cliff ever was.

Yeah, during the worst years. Also, he's only been with the band for ONE studio release which is best described as forgettable, as opposed to the three groundbreaking, Metallica-shaping albums that Cliff was a huge part of. Nice try, though. I'm sure if no one in this thread knew fark-all about Metallica, that might have been a good post for you.

One studio release? Wasn't Rob with them for St. Anger, Death Magnetic, and Lulu (I think that's the name of album they did with Lou Reed)?

/I liked Death Magnetic.//Too bad everybody gave up with them after St. Anger.

Bob Rock played bass for St. Anger. Rob toured with them to promote the album, but he wasn't even in Metallica yet when St. Anger was being recorded.

mooseyfate:Bob Rock played bass for St. Anger. Rob toured with them to promote the album, but he wasn't even in Metallica yet when St. Anger was being recorded.

Also, he's a member in as much as he's a hired mercenary to the group. The other 3 split all the money and he gets a solid paycheck for his role in the group. He has no power to influence anything outside of his bass parts, and should someone else in the band want him to do it different, he does it different. He's a session player that gets to be in band pictures, as far as the other 3 are concerned.

saintwrathchild:Real Women Drink Akvavit: I was deeply offended by the whining about how downloads were costing them so much money that we ended up with the computer age version of jackbooted thugs who were suing people who didn't even know what Napster was (or little old people who didn't even use a computer and settling out of court for $5,000 a pop cuz they couldn't afford a lawyer) and the hypocrisy of whining about people with crappy skillz downloading, not over the fact they were doing so, but over the fact that the quality was so much better they didn't have to buy the album to see how Metallica truly sounds.

To be fair, you're leaving out the part where unreleased music Metallica were working on at the time (I think it was a demo for what would later be "Fuel") was ripped from their hard drives by hackers then shared over Napster, and that whole ordeal was Lars's main gripe. On the one hand, it's pretty enviable and telling of how big Metallica were that their fans were so ravenous for new art they'd go to that end--but on the other hand, it's not exactly the fan-liest or most ethical thing to hack one's favorite artist's data, rip their half-baked music, and distribute it either.

For what it's worth, Lars has since pulled a 180 on how he feels about Metallica's music being freely available on the Internet (as I recall, he specifically cited the benefit of the easy availability of their music holds for metalheads in countries where Metallica, metal, and all secular music are straight up illegal/banned), but he'll never be able to shake that RIAA figurehead image ascribed to him by the peanut gallery, probably because he was the best known and (sadly) most ironic voice in the public arena on the issue.

I'm not saying any iteration of Lars's opinion is purely in the right or wrong on the much bigger filesharing/Internet piracy issue, just that, in the big picture, the whole Ulrich v Napster case (NOT RIAA v Grandma) is much less black and white than how popular history see ...

That was not cool. Not cool at all. If you want to poke around out of curiosity and can do it without getting caught, don't cause damage and don't share your shenanigans outside of the hack and crack world. Don't even share it there, because they know how to go look for themselves for the most part. (or are learning and need the practice) Also be prepared to be Mitnicked. Kevin "The Condor" Mitnick was legendary - and still got caught and spent years in prison with hundreds of millions in "damages" he was ordered to pay - and he didn't take anything.

The cracking incident is one aspect of that whole thing I do not fault anyone for being upset about. If someone had stolen my stuff and put it up on Scribd without my permission, I'd be ticked. I'm a chef, so the almost obligatory cookbook will some day be written, but in the meantime, I have no problem with sharing with others. However, that's if they ASK. I will also post my creations and even the beginnings of ideas on open forums, so then everyone who wants it can get it just by looking. If they just busted into my drive, well, "ticked" doesn't begin to describe my most likely reaction, especially since I do share my creations freely. It would be like they raped my poor Lilith. (My fav computer's name.) That would be unacceptable to me. Totally.

Real Women Drink Akvavit:saintwrathchild: Real Women Drink Akvavit: I was deeply offended by the whining about how downloads were costing them so much money that we ended up with the computer age version of jackbooted thugs who were suing people who didn't even know what Napster was (or little old people who didn't even use a computer and settling out of court for $5,000 a pop cuz they couldn't afford a lawyer) and the hypocrisy of whining about people with crappy skillz downloading, not over the fact they were doing so, but over the fact that the quality was so much better they didn't have to buy the album to see how Metallica truly sounds.

To be fair, you're leaving out the part where unreleased music Metallica were working on at the time (I think it was a demo for what would later be "Fuel") was ripped from their hard drives by hackers then shared over Napster, and that whole ordeal was Lars's main gripe. On the one hand, it's pretty enviable and telling of how big Metallica were that their fans were so ravenous for new art they'd go to that end--but on the other hand, it's not exactly the fan-liest or most ethical thing to hack one's favorite artist's data, rip their half-baked music, and distribute it either.

For what it's worth, Lars has since pulled a 180 on how he feels about Metallica's music being freely available on the Internet (as I recall, he specifically cited the benefit of the easy availability of their music holds for metalheads in countries where Metallica, metal, and all secular music are straight up illegal/banned), but he'll never be able to shake that RIAA figurehead image ascribed to him by the peanut gallery, probably because he was the best known and (sadly) most ironic voice in the public arena on the issue.

I'm not saying any iteration of Lars's opinion is purely in the right or wrong on the much bigger filesharing/Internet piracy issue, just that, in the big picture, the whole Ulrich v Napster case (NOT RIAA v Grandma) is much less black and white than how po ...

That's ok, they're releasing unfinished demo's as an EP from the Death Magnetic sessions. They've become so lazy and rich, they don't even bother to finish tunes for release. I guess they're paying them back by charging for unfinished songs.

Cliff and I were neighbors as kids. He was probably just leaving elementary school/entering junior high; I finished junior high and entered high school. He was just a sweetie, even as a kid. Most of the guys in the neighborhood were teen jerks in an 'I coulda totally kicked his a** / I coulda totally had her" kind of way (including his big brother, Scott), but I remember Cliff as a genuine and thoughtful kid. We'd sit on the curb together contemplating the meaning of life.

Last time I saw him was 1981, I think - I'd been living in Sacramento and was moving back to town. Rented a U-haul and he turned out to be working there. Didn't recognize him after all those years; he had his trademark orange mane and he just said "Hi", and when I looked puzzled, he said, "Cliff Burton!" Sad end to a good guy, but I'm glad he enjoyed success with the band.

mooseyfate:rickycal78: Ahhh, back when Metallica was still putting out metal. Good times. I still think the band started it's slow decline with Cliff's death. Sure Justice was still a metal album, but that was it. Pretty much everything that followed was more hard rock than metal. Nothing wrong with that mind you since I still like a fair amount of their stuff after Justice, but it just wasn't metal anymore.

I was with them all the way up until St. Anger. That CD was....unforgivable. At least before that CD you had the excuse of saying they sounded more polished, more like professional musicians. St. Anger was just a confused, shiatty mess.

To be fair, Metallica were a confused, shiatty mess when they were making that album. Jason had just quit due to major creative differences between him and James, who would shortly thereafter check himself into rehab because of his alcoholism, and Lars was in the middle of suing Napster. Plus they were going through group therapy to try to iron out some of their kinks, with their therapist eventually becoming one of those kinks.

King Something:mooseyfate: rickycal78: Ahhh, back when Metallica was still putting out metal. Good times. I still think the band started it's slow decline with Cliff's death. Sure Justice was still a metal album, but that was it. Pretty much everything that followed was more hard rock than metal. Nothing wrong with that mind you since I still like a fair amount of their stuff after Justice, but it just wasn't metal anymore.

I was with them all the way up until St. Anger. That CD was....unforgivable. At least before that CD you had the excuse of saying they sounded more polished, more like professional musicians. St. Anger was just a confused, shiatty mess.

To be fair, Metallica were are a confused, shiatty mess when they were making that album. Jason had just quit due to major creative differences between him and James, who would shortly thereafter check himself into rehab because of his alcoholism, and Lars was in the middle of suing Napster. Plus they were going through group therapy to try to iron out some of their kinks, with their therapist eventually becoming one of those kinks.

I always find it funny that people give so much shiat to Metallica after their "sell out" phase, but Megadeth gets a free pass for pandering to the fans and regurgitating the same "thrashy" album over and over since 2004 despite releasing two albums that were poppier than anything Metallica ever did.

CZMisfitsFan:I always find it funny that people give so much shiat to Metallica after their "sell out" phase, but Megadeth gets a free pass for pandering to the fans and regurgitating the same "thrashy" album over and over since 2004 despite releasing two albums that were poppier than anything Metallica ever did.

As someone else mentioned upthread, Metallica didn't sell out so much as they did what they set out to do. That is make a whole lotta moolah and be "big". Also, I've never heard anyone other than one of said pandered to fans rave about Mustaine at all. I have been at a pool hall and heard someone complain when something came on the jukebox "this was Megadeth's last GOOD album". Only once, though. I don't hang out there, though.

Metal head types, no matter which subgenre they prefer (if any), can be a bit catty, if not outright elitist, so the Metallica and Megadeth (I can't name a single album of theirs, I don't think) hate is simply par for the course. Drunken college age karaoke chicks are worse, but they tend not to wear spiked gauntlets and other sharp, potentially dangerous things (or burn churches or get stabby on each other or send letter bombs to people they don't like, etc).

/guilty of that elitist thing sometimes myself//I've gotten better about that sort of thing over the years and am now more helpful than elitistyay, me?

CZMisfitsFan:I always find it funny that people give so much shiat to Metallica after their "sell out" phase, but Megadeth gets a free pass for pandering to the fans and regurgitating the same "thrashy" album over and over since 2004 despite releasing two albums that were poppier than anything Metallica ever did.

I've never heard anyone give Megadeth a "free pass". They catch just as much shiat for their substandard/sellout albums.

Adebisi:CZMisfitsFan: I always find it funny that people give so much shiat to Metallica after their "sell out" phase, but Megadeth gets a free pass for pandering to the fans and regurgitating the same "thrashy" album over and over since 2004 despite releasing two albums that were poppier than anything Metallica ever did.

I've never heard anyone give Megadeth a "free pass". They catch just as much shiat for their substandard/sellout albums.

It also doesn't help that Dave's gone just a bit nuts over the years, as well as some accusing Dave of using pre-recorded vocals at live performances.