migya wrote:About the so called underachievers - Look at the teams they had and you will see why they didn't win that much All four are superstars (Brand arguably is) and have all been nba elite!

Yeah, but for bad teams. That adds a certain question mark to their careers. I mean, other lesser players (Mourning is a good example, as he didn't have the same talent T-Mac or KG have, but was more about physical play and hustle. AI also carried the Sixers in the playoffs by himself, even reaching the finals) have a much better resumé in the playoffs.

For example, KG had enough help. Marbury first (not for long, tho), Terrell Brandon (a wonderful PG, even tho most people forgets about him easily), Sam Cassell, Sprewell, Wally, Guggliotta, Bobby Jackson... all those guys played with KG. You already know I believe Flip Saunders sucks... so that would be a point in KG's behalf.

Grant Hill also had several good teanmates (Stackhouse, Allan Houston, Dumars...) but once again, poor coaches. Doug Collins sucks, too.

T-Mac didn't have much help in Orlando, that's true (Hill was supposed to be that help, but wasn't able to play). But still hasn't done anything with the Rockets. That may change this year, if they're healthy.

Finally, Brand played for two terrible teams in Chicago, but had lots of help in Clipperland to make the playoffs before last season (Odom, Q, Andre Miller, Mags, McInnis, Miles... even Olowokandi, who, after sucking pretty much his whole career, had a good season in the last year of his contract). Once again, Sam Cassell was the difference-maker. And this year, with Cassell missing games due to injuries, they are fighting for the 8th seed.

I think those players should have done a bit more to be considered stars (at least, for the purposes of this draft). And KG is the one with the least excuses. His current team is awful (that's why they missed the playoffs last year and may not make them this one), but he had enough help to, at least, have done a bit more during his career. A couple of trips to the second round or something like that, I'm not demanding a ring...

Great scoring team as has been said. Not to be harsh but here's the thing - Walton was injury riddled and would not give more than 3 or 4 good years at the most, Nash is unbelievable BUT he has only been great for 2 full seasons and very good for some 4 or 5 so a superstar for 3 years. Amare has not done much yet and only been around for 4 years. Lebron has only been around for 3 years but has already done what few before him have and with Jordan is a devastating 1-2 combo! Kidd and Carter are great players, Kidd being top 5 PG alltime.

Defense fairly weak and coach doesn't fit but overall a great team that I rank 3rd best overall.

Great team, especially defensively. Magic is ideal to get the most out of this team. Scoring is a weakness but the biggest negative is attitude as Artest, Kobe, Rodman, with the occassional Mourning, would kill each other.

A great team that can defend but would find scoring a bit difficult. Top 2 team

Trying to be unbiased but really see my team as being complete at every position and will explain a bit: Some might say that Tim Bug and KJ are not great PGs but their career numbers and standard is higher than most PGs alltime. They are underrated players I believe and fit this team perfectly. Bird and Hakeem accomplished pretty much everything in their careers and are great leaders. Ewing is a slight level beneath Hakeem but arguably alltime top 10 Center. Grant Hill can be seen as a 6 year megastar at the very least but he has had two very good seasons since as well. Maravich is bashed a bit but he ws good at pretty much everything and was a great "outside shooter" as well (Pest: They didn't have the three point shot until the last season of his career).

Scoring is covered, as is defense with only Maravich and Bellamy possibly seen as no more than decent (Bird played defense and made the All Defense 2nd team a few times). No attitudes. Leaders and winners most are.

Top 2 team at least but hard to see any other matchup with and outplay

Very good scoring and defense. Great bigs with Duncan, Admiral and Thurmond and Mutombo plays great role as defender. Some leaders and winner, notably Duncan and Worthy. Can do pretty much everything fairly well.

What's not to like here?. Chemistry issues. Artest, Rodman, Kobe, the Mailman (who I think it's overrated and should have been no higher than a third round pick, but you got steals on other rounds, so it was good drafting anyway)... It may all blow up. Actually, that's probably what would happen with this roster. Looks great in fantasy basketball, but I doubt it would work in real life.

fair issue about chemistry, but kobe is not bad for chemistry and never has been, shaq is just an asshole. Moses Malone isn't bad for chemistry as he was MVP multiple times despite having multiple superstars on his team - he takes very little shots that he doesn't make for himself off offensive boards. Rodman is a wacko but has never hurt a team through his weirdness, he's more in the Darryl Dawkins category. I think Artest is the only legitimate gripe about chemistry and he was a late pick.

Kobe is the arsehole and he singlehandedly ruined the Lakers team with his selfishness

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:fair issue about chemistry, but kobe is not bad for chemistry and never has been, shaq is just an asshole. Moses Malone isn't bad for chemistry as he was MVP multiple times despite having multiple superstars on his team - he takes very little shots that he doesn't make for himself off offensive boards. Rodman is a wacko but has never hurt a team through his weirdness, he's more in the Darryl Dawkins category. I think Artest is the only legitimate gripe about chemistry and he was a late pick.

You know, I consider Kobe as a cancer similar to Isiah Thomas (he looks like that, at least. He moved Shaq, moved Caron Butler, toyed with the Clips having no intention to sign there. And looking at Odom's face, seems like he can't wait to leave LA...). Still an opinion, tho.

Rodman became a problem while playing for the Spurs. MJ was able to, more or less, keep him under control, so maybe Magic could do the same.

I wouldn't worry about Moses being a problem. It's the other Malone the one that would worry me. I know he played a lesser role for the Lakers at the end of his career... but I doubt he would have done the same in his prime. Instead, I think he would have become a problem in the locker room. Just a hunch, tho.

Artest is Artest... Late pick, but nobody was going to pick him. You probably could have drafted him in the last round.

migya wrote:Kobe is the arsehole and he singlehandedly ruined the Lakers team with his selfishness

That's complete and utter ignorance migya. Shaq asked for a trade. Shaq repeatedly wanted out. Kobe stayed loyal to the lakers. Kobe extended the olive branch. Shaq broke the olive branch. Shaq said "Kobe who?". Kobe tried to make things better. Shaq made the entire melodrama happen and it was blamed on Kobe because the media loves scapegoating guys who were supposed to be the next jordan and they love Shaq's dick just as much. Hate Kobe if you will (as I do) but don't slander him.

You know, I consider Kobe as a cancer similar to Isiah Thomas (he looks like that, at least. He moved Shaq, moved Caron Butler, toyed with the Clips having no intention to sign there. And looking at Odom's face, seems like he can't wait to leave LA...). Still an opinion, tho.

Shaq moved Shaq and Carlon Butler moved Carlon Butler. Kobe stayed loyal to a Lakers franchise over a superior clippers team that was willing to move their franchise for him. Ask any player in the Lakers' locker room and they'll tell you they love Kobe. Every single one of them.

Rodman became a problem while playing for the Spurs. MJ was able to, more or less, keep him under control, so maybe Magic could do the same.

There's enough leadership on this team to keep him in control if it can be done

I wouldn't worry about Moses being a problem. It's the other Malone the one that would worry me. I know he played a lesser role for the Lakers at the end of his career... but I doubt he would have done the same in his prime. Instead, I think he would have become a problem in the locker room. Just a hunch, tho.

I disagree, if he were on Utah that year he would be taking 17 shots every game and racking up 20-10. Instead he went to the lakers and took only 9 shots per game, played less minutes, and agreed to be the third option, while playing some of the best defense ever played. I don't think he'd have a problem not being the first option (and keep in mind that he would be one of the top few options

Artest is Artest... Late pick, but nobody was going to pick him. You probably could have drafted him in the last round.

I could have had half of my team in the last round, nobody but me wanted a lot of my guys, but Artest had more star power than Alvin or Dennis and McAdoo wasn't in my plans at the time.

EDIT: In terms of chemistry issues, you're up to your neck in losers like the Big O, Baylor, pearl, Arenas, etc. Though duncan should be able to keep them in check EDIT: and I mean losers in the sense of the word as in can't win, likely due to their style or attitude.

Last edited by tHe_pEsTiLeNcE on Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

TMC wrote:For example, KG had enough help. Marbury first (not for long, tho), Terrell Brandon (a wonderful PG, even tho most people forgets about him easily), Sam Cassell, Sprewell, Wally, Guggliotta, Bobby Jackson... all those guys played with KG. You already know I believe Flip Saunders sucks... so that would be a point in KG's behalf.

KG had teammates that were either too young (as in Marbury), looked better than what they were (Gugliotta), or were just crap, like the rest of the players around him since he came into the nba. KG has had to be the focal point of the TWolves all the time but he has had little help. Cassell and Sprewell were on the downspiral of their careers but still managed alright but it was never going to last long. KG always had ONE very good player around him and surrounded by garbage, many of them players that quickly left the nba. He is a star and has done more singlehandedly than most could in his situation

You're joking right?! The Pistons were quite disgraceful! Dumars was good for a year or two (one of those seasons the Pistons did very well). Stackhouse took a while to come on strong and even then only wanted to score and not do much else, Hunter was a loser that did fukall and the rest of the Pustons were half decent role players at best! Grant Hill had a situation in Detroit like Garnett had and has in Minnesota. Hill was always and elite player when he was with the Pistons

TMC wrote:T-Mac didn't have much help in Orlando, that's true (Hill was supposed to be that help, but wasn't able to play). But still hasn't done anything with the Rockets. That may change this year, if they're healthy.

TMac was surrounded by wannabes in Orlando and things never happened. If Hill had been healthy, maybe they could have gone all the way but even then it would have been a two man team. TMac has been a megastar the last 5 or 6 years

TMC wrote:Finally, Brand played for two terrible teams in Chicago, but had lots of help in Clipperland to make the playoffs before last season (Odom, Q, Andre Miller, Mags, McInnis, Miles... even Olowokandi, who, after sucking pretty much his whole career, had a good season in the last year of his contract). Once again, Sam Cassell was the difference-maker. And this year, with Cassell missing games due to injuries, they are fighting for the 8th seed.

That Clipper had too many young guys that thought they were Jordan! Nothing good was ever going to happen with that team as they all wanted the ball and couldn't hack it! Brand is a top 4 or 5 PF and has been since he arrived in the nba and he is one of the best at both ends

migya wrote:Kobe is the arsehole and he singlehandedly ruined the Lakers team with his selfishness

That's complete and utter ignorance migya. Shaq asked for a trade. Shaq repeatedly wanted out. Kobe stayed loyal to the lakers. Kobe extended the olive branch. Shaq broke the olive branch. Shaq said "Kobe who?". Kobe tried to make things better. Shaq made the entire melodrama happen and it was blamed on Kobe because the media loves scapegoating guys who were supposed to be the next jordan and they love Shaq's dick just as much. Hate Kobe if you will (as I do) but don't slander him.

all reports stated that Kobe was creating unease all the time demanding to be the man in the Lakers and even Phil Jackson had stated (in his book as well) that Kobe was a selfish man that would never win anything

migya wrote:Kobe is the arsehole and he singlehandedly ruined the Lakers team with his selfishness

That's complete and utter ignorance migya. Shaq asked for a trade. Shaq repeatedly wanted out. Kobe stayed loyal to the lakers. Kobe extended the olive branch. Shaq broke the olive branch. Shaq said "Kobe who?". Kobe tried to make things better. Shaq made the entire melodrama happen and it was blamed on Kobe because the media loves scapegoating guys who were supposed to be the next jordan and they love Shaq's dick just as much. Hate Kobe if you will (as I do) but don't slander him.

all reports stated that Kobe was creating unease all the time demanding to be the man in the Lakers and even Phil Jackson had stated (in his book as well) that Kobe was a selfish man that would never win anything

And phil jackson has taken back everything since. The whole trade was shaq's fault and wasn't reported (well it was reported as such, just history revisionists decided it was kobe's fault a year later) as such because it wanted to scapegoat kobe and loves shaq.

migya wrote:Kobe is the arsehole and he singlehandedly ruined the Lakers team with his selfishness

That's complete and utter ignorance migya. Shaq asked for a trade. Shaq repeatedly wanted out. Kobe stayed loyal to the lakers. Kobe extended the olive branch. Shaq broke the olive branch. Shaq said "Kobe who?". Kobe tried to make things better. Shaq made the entire melodrama happen and it was blamed on Kobe because the media loves scapegoating guys who were supposed to be the next jordan and they love Shaq's dick just as much. Hate Kobe if you will (as I do) but don't slander him.

all reports stated that Kobe was creating unease all the time demanding to be the man in the Lakers and even Phil Jackson had stated (in his book as well) that Kobe was a selfish man that would never win anything

And phil jackson has taken back everything since. The whole trade was shaq's fault and wasn't reported (well it was reported as such, just history revisionists decided it was kobe's fault a year later) as such because it wanted to scapegoat kobe and loves shaq.

Reports state that the only reason Jackson went back to coach the Lakers was because he was banging Jerry Buss's daughter Jennie! Obviously a power hungry muthafuka

migya wrote:Kobe is the arsehole and he singlehandedly ruined the Lakers team with his selfishness

That's complete and utter ignorance migya. Shaq asked for a trade. Shaq repeatedly wanted out. Kobe stayed loyal to the lakers. Kobe extended the olive branch. Shaq broke the olive branch. Shaq said "Kobe who?". Kobe tried to make things better. Shaq made the entire melodrama happen and it was blamed on Kobe because the media loves scapegoating guys who were supposed to be the next jordan and they love Shaq's dick just as much. Hate Kobe if you will (as I do) but don't slander him.

all reports stated that Kobe was creating unease all the time demanding to be the man in the Lakers and even Phil Jackson had stated (in his book as well) that Kobe was a selfish man that would never win anything

Quoting TO:

'If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it is a rat.' "

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:EDIT: In terms of chemistry issues, you're up to your neck in losers like the Big O, Baylor, pearl, Arenas, etc. Though duncan should be able to keep them in check EDIT: and I mean losers in the sense of the word as in can't win, likely due to their style or attitude.

You know. I only see Baylor like that. And that's the one pick I regret making...

tHe_pEsTiLeNcE wrote:EDIT: In terms of chemistry issues, you're up to your neck in losers like the Big O, Baylor, pearl, Arenas, etc. Though duncan should be able to keep them in check EDIT: and I mean losers in the sense of the word as in can't win, likely due to their style or attitude.

You know. I only see Baylor like that. And that's the one pick I regret making...

Oscar = Asshole to absolutely everybody in every interview, had a tendency for hazing people. Couldn't win as the man
Arenas = Eats all the team's food, intolerable to a lot of teammates (the warriors players didn't shed a tear after he left) and just a worse shooting, younger, kobe on the court.
Pearl = Never won anything until he took a role with the knicks, and part of that had to do with that he was theoretically a "point guard" despite having no passing abilities. He couldn't win a ring as the first option, second option, third option, etc, he was the fifth option.