ghouck- NO, I was saying capitalism is the system that punishes poor performance and rewards positive performance. at least in theory. I like boston and am not going to leave because of it's government. I don't see them as part of things, just an annoyance.

byeond the grave- have you ever seen "dark days". it's a documentary about the people who lived in these tunnels under NYC. It was good

circus and rcmerchant I meant to compliment your posts as well. it's good to get this sort of genuine information from peoples experiences and also good to see you have picked yourselves up

But to me I'm more disgusted not with a homeless man who just doesn't want to work because of 'unknown' reasons and lives on the street and gets free food. I can't tolerate people who have a job but mooch off of others, live with someone, don't help with bills or rent and take money from friends and family for stupid stuff like buying themself some movies or games.

I don't know, I see a big difference in the two cases... the people who are living with others and "mooching" off the person they're with, well, that's pretty much just the person they're living with's problem. It's that person (or persons) who are enabling those people to get away with that behavior.

But when you got people who don't want to work and get their money by standing out in the street and asking (sometimes "bothering") people for change, taking advantage of the kindness of others, frankly that bugs me a LOT more than a moocher who's exploiting someone who's too weak to stand up for themselves and tell them to help out around the house or leave.

Plus, when you give a homeless person money (as opposed to giving it to a shelter or charity that helps the homeless) I'd argue you're not helping that person.

I remember not too long ago in New York City a bunch of lawyers got together and SUED THE CITY so the homeless could have the RIGHT to panhandle.

What kind of message does that send?

And this may sound cruel, but if I owned a business in the city, I would NOT want a bunch of homeless people standing by the entrance, asking potential customers of my store for change. The cruel fact is, when people see a bunch of homeless guys standing around begging a lot of them will automatically turn and walk the other way, and that would end up hurting whatever business they happen to be in front of. And that's not fair to the guy who works hard, pays taxes, and is trying to make a living.

Or those who have a home but stay on welfare simply cause they don't wanna work. These are people with no excuse, they're able, have opportunity, a place of residence and likely healthy.

Well, I agree, that's annoying as well. I see that a lot in the place I live. A lot of the people here don't work, and I can see why the elderly or the guy who's confined to his bed can't hold a job and have no problem with their unemployment status, but a lot of others on this floor seem perfectly capable of doing something. Strangely, although they don't work, most of them somehow manage to pay rent, have cable, and have seemingly have no problem supporting their nicotine habits.

"The problem there was that the people who were in charge refused to do anything about it. "

that's another problem here. The librarians, like all state employees, don't do their job. Occasionally I can't take it anymore and I will tell loud people to be quiet please. the librarians, who the one thing we want from them is to tell loud people to be quiet, are off in another dimension. they believe theyare part of the literary worldor something. and of course, the regulars resent the kids from the local high school and sit their stone faced when the kids are carousing as kids do.

I work in a library. While we do tell the people to be quiet at times, you may have noticed a change in the tone of libraries in the past 5-10 years. Basically, they're transitioning from places to quietly study and borrow books to combination media centers and cafe-type hang outs. This is a change they're making as they realize far too many young people have no interest in the library, thanks to a variety of changes in the way media is consumed. Basically, libraries realize their days as book depositories are numbered, so they're trying to update their image.

Along with this change, unfortunately, comes a much higher degree of tolerance for bad behavior in libraries.

Thank You Jim, I was hoping I was not the only one to notice this. Somewhere, someone got the idea every library had to be dead silent, that is just not the case these days. There are libraries that ARE, and some that are NOT. Like I said before, if you don't like the one you're at, find another. I can't be forced to believe that there aren't more around, as at last count, there were 540+ in Alaska, a state of around 600,000 people.

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Thank You Jim, I was hoping I was not the only one to notice this. Somewhere, someone got the idea every library had to be dead silent, that is just not the case these days. There are libraries that ARE, and some that are NOT. Like I said before, if you don't like the one you're at, find another. I can't be forced to believe that there aren't more around, as at last count, there were 540+ in Alaska, a state of around 600,000 people.

Yeah, that's true. There is a big difference in the state of St. Louis county libraries. Generally, the bigger the library, the louder it is. If you want a quiet one, find the tiniest hole-in-the-wall library in your area. I don't mind libraries not being dead silent at all times, but the occasional people talking extremely loudly on their phone and very young children screaming and crying do annoy me a lot. The latter two are probably the main times we have to tell people to be quiet or leave the library.

On a side note, you should see the "banned patron" list. Some of the things people have done to get banned... Public masturbation in the computer room, hitting staff, breaking library property on purpose, etc.

On a side note, you should see the "banned patron" list. Some of the things people have done to get banned... Public masturbation in the computer room

Then WHAT do you have computers for? Remind me to not come to YOUR library, what kind of facist librarian doesn't let someone milk out a kleenex-baby or two? It's not like I'd do it in the children's book section or something sick like that. .

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Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Generally, the bigger the library, the louder it is. If you want a quiet one, find the tiniest hole-in-the-wall library in your area.

Funny, my experience has been the opposite. Living in the city, I found people were spread out enough that they didn't make much noise, and the library was a big enough place that you could find a quiet corner without too much trouble. I recall they also had a section of carrels if you were really serious. The layout of the place actually fostered peace and quiet in the main library. The kids' section was in a whole other part of the building, books got checked out in the lobby, away from the shelves, and they had separate rooms for programs.

On the other hand, I just took my daughter to story hour at our tiny one-room public library today. Not much space at all, and mostly filled with shelves, tables and computers, with some pretty narrow aisles. And during story hour, the kids pretty much rule the place. You hear them throughout, they move about the library as the activities require it, and there's quite a stampede when they come and go and sign out their books. And the parents occupy even more space than the kids. The kids are pretty well behaved, but when they're singing and making crafts and hearing stories, they are naturally making noise. But that's what I love about small town libraries. The few adults who aren't there for story time don't seem too concerned about it either. Heck, in a community like this, most of them know the kids.

The big-city library was bright, quiet, spacious, institutional and well stocked with practically anything I wanted to read. I liked that. I miss that. But this library is a fun, friendly place, and I like that too. It reminds me of the library in my hometown, which was several times larger than this one, but still not what you'd call big. A public library, especially in places with limited public facilities is indeed more than a book depository. It's a real community resource.

Generally, the bigger the library, the louder it is. If you want a quiet one, find the tiniest hole-in-the-wall library in your area.

Funny, my experience has been the opposite. Living in the city, I found people were spread out enough that they didn't make much noise, and the library was a big enough place that you could find a quiet corner without too much trouble. I recall they also had a section of carrels if you were really serious. The layout of the place actually fostered peace and quiet in the main library. The kids' section was in a whole other part of the building, books got checked out in the lobby, away from the shelves, and they had separate rooms for programs.

On the other hand, I just took my daughter to story hour at our tiny one-room public library today. Not much space at all, and mostly filled with shelves, tables and computers, with some pretty narrow aisles. And during story hour, the kids pretty much rule the place. You hear them throughout, they move about the library as the activities require it, and there's quite a stampede when they come and go and sign out their books. And the parents occupy even more space than the kids. The kids are pretty well behaved, but when they're singing and making crafts and hearing stories, they are naturally making noise. But that's what I love about small town libraries. The few adults who aren't there for story time don't seem too concerned about it either. Heck, in a community like this, most of them know the kids.

The big-city library was bright, quiet, spacious, institutional and well stocked with practically anything I wanted to read. I liked that. I miss that. But this library is a fun, friendly place, and I like that too. It reminds me of the library in my hometown, which was several times larger than this one, but still not what you'd call big. A public library, especially in places with limited public facilities is indeed more than a book depository. It's a real community resource.

It probably varies by region, and whether you're talking in a major city or in the suburbs. The libraries I'm talking about are in the suburban St. Louis metro-area. In the smaller libraries in my area, the libraries simply can't allow too many people to be noisy, since one very loud person disturbs every one. Smaller libraries here are also less used, even considering the smaller size, as people frequently go out of their way to go to the bigger ones for their greater amenities.

You're also very right about layout. We have a separate kids room, which has two doors that close when you enter, and it does a GREAT job of keeping in noise. Basically, your kids can nearly scream and not bother other patrons. The problem are parents that let their kids run around screaming everywhere.

On another note, it's completely baffling to me how many parents let young children run around the library totally unescorted. I'm not talking kids, say, 10 and up - I mean like 2-4 year olds. It's not only unsafe on the level of what a stranger can do (not a huge concern in my area, really), but more a concern that they could get hurt, lost, or scared - all of which have happened on my shift. One two year old managed to latch onto my cart, and tip it onto himself. It's lucky it was nearly empty - what if it had been full of heavy hard covers? He was lucky just to get a nasty bruise on his face. Me, I just about had a heart attack at that.

True, it's amazing how many people let kids run around unescorted any place. I used to get annoyed with people who let their kids misbehave in public places, and the line I always got was that I'd feel differently with kids of my own. Funny, my kid doesn't do that. Sometimes she acts up, but not too badly, and it's usually easy to get control of the situation. The secret was that we never made excuses for her. From the beginning, there were times and places to be noisy or run around, and those where it was not allowed. There were things you could touch and things you could only look at, and things you needed to treat gently. There were things you should stay away from altogether. And when she learned to talk, there were things for which you were required to apologize.

It wasn't even that hard. A little diligence up front, and she understood. Now, enforcing the rules is easy, because misbehaviour is the exception. Half the time, she's reminding us to mind our manners.

So yeah, experience has just made me more annoyed when kids are running wild. There's no excuse.

From the beginning, there were times and places to be noisy or run around, and those where it was not allowed.

True enough, but surely your ideas on this matter don't align with everybody's. I guarantee there's SOMEONE that didn't think it was OK for your kid to run/whatever someplace you thought it was OK, and vice-versa. There's always going to be someone complaining that what YOU are doing is wrong, and you'll chalk them up as being overly uptight, there will always be people who you see as letting their kids go out of control, and they'll chalk YOU up as being overly uptight.

This all started with one person's insistence that HE thought the entire library should adjust to HIS desire, period.

And for people like JimH describes, I also am amazed at how little people look out for the safety of their kids. We have on looney family here with one boy of the young teen-age variety. The kid was an idiot, plain and simple, the rest of the family was none the better, but they HAD to realize what an idiot this kid is, poor student, etc, but they got the kid a dirt bike and turned him loose on the world. Well, the kid blows through a stop sign coming off a dirt road across what is one of the busiest highways in Alaska, and gets hit by a pickup truck. Sparing the details, the kid dies a couple of weeks later. Now, I feel bad for the family, it sucks, but, the kid was heading towards killing someone anyways with a bunch of the other stupid crap he did on a regular basis, to try an put a silver lining on it, this just may have save someone else's life. BUT, why did the kid have a dirt bike? A combination of two things: It is a pacifier, and it's so he fits in with the cool kids; the honor roll students that stay out of trouble, work hard, act responsible, and have dirt bikes because of that. Social life first, gotta make sure that's up to par before anything else.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:09:42 AM by ghouck »

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I get a little irritated when I see my neighbor's kids in there screwing around on the computer playing games EVERY TIME no matter what hour I go to the local library (aside school hours). Thats because their mother drops them off there for the day maybe under the assumption they're educating themselves. Granted when I go on the computer there its hardly for educational reasons. However, I go on for 15 minutes at the most.

I get a little irritated when I see my neighbor's kids in there screwing around on the computer playing games EVERY TIME no matter what hour I go to the local library (aside school hours). Thats because their mother drops them off there for the day maybe under the assumption they're educating themselves. Granted when I go on the computer there its hardly for educational reasons. However, I go on for 15 minutes at the most.

Most libraries I've used enforce time limits on the computers. But in the Philly main city library there's supposed to be some sort of scam that a few people use to sign up under multiple names and tie up practically every computer in the library. I forget the details of the scam.

In most that I've been in in AK, and I've been in lots of them in many different cities, they do the same: Time limits on computers. I saw one that had a decent enough system: Every computer had a timer on it, and when that timer went off, the monitor shut off and it was someone else's turn. The librarian could add time to the timer if they saw the person was doing legitimate work. Also, the librarian showed me a program that would allow her to see what was on the monitor from her office, so she could see if someone was goofing off and just switching to something educational to get her to give them time. What I REALLY liked was the sign:

"Time limit on computers: 20 minutes, but more can be added if you are working on your education, (Limit is 10 minutes if you're playing Runescape, I hate that game)"

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