" i was being caught. i was then being tied up with ropes over me.":( "i cant moved at all..":( "They put with my peers, who was being tied up too, in a fish tank....":( " We waited and waited..we do not know what is going to happen to us..":( " We are feared, but we cant do anythings...":( " Then a man caught me from the tank, i hope he can release me....":rolleyes: " He put me on a board and start to untie me...":rolleyes: " i see my peers were BEING CHOPPED!!!":eek: " I tried to run, i cant!!":( " i cried....i struggled....But the man overpower me..":( "he helded me and he chopped me with a chopper!!!":eek: " I was in great pain......i cried loudly....":( " I was dead....with pain..." the man washed my chopped body, he cooked me with chillies..":( "My body was being served on the table...":( " People ate my fresh...":( " those people eat my fresh did not see how i was being bullied and being chopped....i have great pain...i missed my family members too":( "After all the enjoyment, my left over body were being threw at a side..":( " i was dead due to people enjoyment....":( " who am i ? i was a Sri lankan Crab...":( See below...

being tied up in tanks..

i was served on table with my chopped boday with chillies..

my left over body...i was dead...

All, the above is i make up feeling to a poor crab being served on the table last two weeks.

Last two weeks, my relative treated us a dinner at a famous Crab restaurant. I seen the poor crabs were being killed cos of human desire in their taste...I have seen that particulars restaurant were with long human queeue wating to eat live crabs and everytable were served with different types of cooking crabs.....many lifes were being taken then...

my feels is: Is the restaurant owner has to bear the bad karma, or the cook, who do the killing OR the customer, NO demand no supply....

Frankly, i am a man who loves to eat crabs but i have not eaten for sometime cos i see my enjoyment, they die...

Actually I read a masterpiece of contemporary literature, where a interesting process was described.

A journalist suddenly found himself in the body of a cow, at the slaughterhouse.

Tried to tell the human beings that he was journalist XY, who originally wanted to write an article about the modern methods here....

But all he brought forth was a rough and deep : "Moo-oooooo!!!"

When he didn't want to trot along with the other cows, he got kicked and beaten, and tried to run away, but marched with the rest, still trying to tell those guys it was a horrible mistke...somehow tell them...."mooo--ooo---ooooo....."

To no avail.

The rest of the story was eerie and chilling. He got slaughtered.

I could never again look at meat or cattle the way I did before-

It had a highly enlightening effect upon me.

So thanks for showing us the whole thing from another, drastic perspective, that is perhaps a bit uncomfortable. But a reality.

So often, on this planet, one being gets a real kick out of something, while the other one is in agony because of that.

Ever thought about it, that a rapists-killer gets off, while his victim is in great pain and dying?

Same with an oyster eaten alive, -the bizzarre contrast between suffering and pleasure.

Annabel wrote:Actually I read a masterpiece of contemporary literature, where a interesting process was described.

A journalist suddenly found himself in the body of a cow, at the slaughterhouse.

Tried to tell the human beings that he was journalist XY, who originally wanted to write an article about the modern methods here....

But all he brought forth was a rough and deep : "Moo-oooooo!!!"

When he didn't want to trot along with the other cows, he got kicked and beaten, and tried to run away, but marched with the rest, still trying to tell those guys it was a horrible mistke...somehow tell them...."mooo--ooo---ooooo....."

To no avail.

The rest of the story was eerie and chilling. He got slaughtered.

I could never again look at meat or cattle the way I did before-

It had a highly enlightening effect upon me.

So thanks for showing us the whole thing from another, drastic perspective, that is perhaps a bit uncomfortable. But a reality.

So often, on this planet, one being gets a real kick out of something, while the other one is in agony because of that.

Ever thought about it, that a rapists-killer gets off, while his victim is in great pain and dying?

Same with an oyster eaten alive, -the bizzarre contrast between suffering and pleasure.

One time, on the streets of D.C., a follower of the cult, Self-Realization Fellowship, handed me a pamphlet with a psychadelic-looking drawing on it... It was a picture of a man's body with a cow's head decapitating a cow with a man's head (and the man's head was screaming). It was definitely very creepy and it examplifies the bizarreness with which some vegetarians, like the militants at PETA, like to push their views on others.

One time, on the streets of D.C., a follower of the cult, Self-Realization Fellowship, handed me a pamphlet with a psychadelic-looking drawing on it... It was a picture of a man's body with a cow's head decapitating a cow with a man's head (and the man's head was screaming). It was definitely very creepy and it examplifies the bizarreness with which some vegetarians, like the militants at PETA, like to push their views on others.

Um....I think the speculations of scientists are less relevant here for us than Buddhist teachings, don't you think?

First precept... sentient being....avoid possible suffering....

"Sentient" means they feel, they have a nervous system, and if you've ever seen, how they desperately struggle to get out of the hot water, as soon as they're in, and how they have to stop struggling, because their muscles and joints are getting cooked and become stiff, if you ever imagined how you would feel, hm...don't know about you, but I don't eat lobsters anymore.

How deep is our all compassion?

One time, on the streets of D.C., a follower of the cult, Self-Realization Fellowship, handed me a pamphlet with a psychadelic-looking drawing on it... It was a picture of a man's body with a cow's head decapitating a cow with a man's head (and the man's head was screaming). It was definitely very creepy and it examplifies the bizarreness with which some vegetarians, like the militants at PETA, like to push their views on others.

Some actions may cause repulsion, but often they wake up somebody who is sound asleep.

And some people don't wake up by softly knocking on their bedroom door. They'd overhear it...and wouldn't youcall out to somebody asleep in a burning house?

There are a multitude of languages spoken in Singapore that reflect its multi-racial, multi-cultural and multi-lingual society.

The Singapore government recognises four official languages: English, Malay, Mandarin, and Tamil. The national language is Malay, while English is mainly used as the business and working language. The colloquial patois spoken on the streets is a creole called Singlish amongst the locals, but is also known amongst academics in linguistics as Singapore Colloquial English.

Annabel wrote:Um....I think the speculations of scientists are less relevant here for us than Buddhist teachings, don't you think?

No, because science and Buddhism do not contradict. They simply approach the truth in different ways, for different reasons. Scientists conduct experiments and record evidence, in order to examine reality empirically, for the sake of knowledge, while Buddhists examine reality empirically and intuitively, for the sake of the cessation of suffering. It would be best if scientists had a firm grounding in Buddhism, to strengthen the insight with which they approach and interpret their research. However, if scientists discover something, Buddhists can't simply ignore it because it contradicts their theology.

"Sentient" means they feel, they have a nervous system, and if you've ever seen, how they desperately struggle to get out of the hot water, as soon as they're in, and how they have to stop struggling, because their muscles and joints are getting cooked and become stiff, if you ever imagined how you would feel, hm...don't know about you, but I don't eat lobsters anymore.

And we don't know whether lobsters, small insects, etc., have "feelings," in the sense of pleasure and pain, so we don't know if they are sentient beings. Remember that all life originated from tiny cellular organisms and one day, we will likely create artificial intelligence, artificial life. And if you put microscopic organisms or robots in boiling water, they can react, but this doesn't imply sentience. If we make a distinction between sentient and non-sentient, there is a blurry line, a grey area, where it is not so clear.

Some people see parallels between lobsters and themselves. They see lobsters reacting abruptly and apparently with extreme urgency when being boiled. Some other people think this is misplaced empathy and there is no reason to feel remorse for being involved in such an act. Having experienced both of these kind of people I choose not to eat Lobster out of concern for the possibility that the lobster is being put through physical and emotional pain. Even though I have not in the past when I ate lobster felt much concern for them. Initially I became sensitive to the concerns of other more sensitive people. Even if the lobster doesn't feel pain I doubt any amount of scientific verification will stop such sensitive people from becoming concerned for the welfare of lobsters. I am grateful for such people. While they might be a pain sometimes when our comfort levels are challenged in regard to expanding our ethical sensibilities they help us see our attachments and aversions which our lack of sensitivity might be missing.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Metta

Gabriel

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Scientists who speculate cannot contradict or confirm Buddhism because they clearly have no solid ground to argue from. Assumptions and speculation are just that: " not knowing", while Buddhists know that animals are sentient beings, according to the Buddhadhamma.

This is adhamma. Lobsters and small insctxts belong to the animal kingdom and the animal kingdom is sentient, according to Buddha.

"Noble Right View," isn't to be understood as particular views, much less particular metaphysics or ontology. I'm aware of the Buddha's classification of the six realms, but we know from evolution that humans themselves are animals, and where did the say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom?

Annabel wrote:

And if you put microscopic organisms... in boiling water, they can react, but this doesn't imply sentience.

Microscopic organisms, if bacterias, are not sentient beings. That's why we can take antibiotics without violating the first precept.

However, if we boil water with little water critters like for instance amoebas, which we can't see, and have no intention of killing, then the 1. precept is not broken.

You're repeating yourself without justifying it with discernment, or even citing suttas. How do you know that a lobster feels pain, but an amoeba does not? How do you know that a "lobster" should be regarded as a "tiracchàna" (animal) in such a way so as to exclude humans and amoebas both? Did the Buddha himself ever give a comprehensive list of all the classes of beings of all the realms?

This is adhamma. Lobsters and small insctxts belong to the animal kingdom and the animal kingdom is sentient, according to Buddha.

"Noble Right View," isn't to be understood as particular views, much less particular metaphysics or ontology. I'm aware of the Buddha's classification of the six realms, but we know from evolution that humans themselves are animals, and where did the say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom?

Annabel wrote:

And if you put microscopic organisms... in boiling water, they can react, but this doesn't imply sentience.

Microscopic organisms, if bacterias, are not sentient beings. That's why we can take antibiotics without violating the first precept.

However, if we boil water with little water critters like for instance amoebas, which we can't see, and have no intention of killing, then the 1. precept is not broken.

You're repeating yourself without justifying it with discernment, or even citing suttas. How do you know that a lobster feels pain, but an amoeba does not? How do you know that a "lobster" should be regarded as a "tiracchàna" (animal) in such a way so as to exclude humans and amoebas both? Did the Buddha himself ever give a comprehensive list of all the classes of beings of all the realms?

we know from evolution that humans themselves are animals, and where did the say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom?

Where did who say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom? Buddha?

Do you doubt that a lobster is an animal? Google it, if you don't believe it.

Without even getting into the sentience debate, it's my understanding that eating meat is permissable in Theravada only if the animal is not specifically killed for our consumption. So picking a lobster out of a tank at a restaurant to be cooked for us would not be appropriate whether it suffers in the pot or not, right?

"The serene and peaceful mind is the true epitome of human achievement."-- Ajahn Chah, Living Dhamma

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

Tex wrote:Without even getting into the sentience debate, it's my understanding that eating meat is permissable in Theravada only if the animal is not specifically killed for our consumption. So picking a lobster out of a tank at a restaurant to be cooked for us would not be appropriate whether it suffers in the pot or not, right?

If you're a bhikkhu, yes.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Retro, thanks for correcting. Perhaps what I'd misremembered had to do with sharing in the kamma of killing the animal by choosing its time of death?

"The serene and peaceful mind is the true epitome of human achievement."-- Ajahn Chah, Living Dhamma

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi