Anyone who's been around the block more than once, knows Barnes produces some copper bullets which are devastating. Read up and enjoy the result.

Took a few years of the very same kicking and screaming when waterfowl loads went to steel and look at the variation of loads we have to select from now. Less toxic marshes and we are still hunting waterfowl imagine that...the liberal conspiracy tin foil hats on some are pretty tight though.

The process will work it's way through the manufacturers, none of them want to lose any business.

How many states force their Tax Paying hunters to buy premium ammo at a premium price? Only one that I know about.

For those of you taking the platform, " I'm a holy conservationist and my s$%& doesn't stink".

Are you really??

Do you only drive a hybrid even to the duck blind?Do you pick every single empty shot shell in the field and have you done so your entire hunting career?Does your house run on purely solar power? Do you buy vegetables and meat or grow your own? Do you own or use any household chemicals?Are all your toilets and faucets low flow?Do you have a grey water pump?When's the last time you bicycled to work?BBQ charcoal?Last demo job at your house or work, how much crap did you send to the dump that wasn't suppose to go? Or do you just pay the contractor and turn your blind liberal eye?

Fact of the matter is not a single person on this forum can answer yes or no to all these questions in the best interest of the enviroment, therefore they are not truly CONSERVATIONISTS.

We all might do our part and some more than others, but nobody is truly a conservationist. We all leave our carbon footprint, and as history has dictated in the past animals will go extinct. Some sooner than others and eventually humans too.

Yes, and some tracks can be easily fixed. Remember leaded fuel? getting rid of that was a massive undertaking but was very successful in cleaning air and soil lead levels . Alternatives were found and used. No reason the same can't apply to ammunition.We all know the anti-hunters agenda. By going to non-tox, thats one less PR issue they can use against us. Your not going to convince most adult voters that throwing lead around in the environment is not harmful. We already know it's harmful. You sound like someone who rides the small bus to school when you try to inform us that ammunition containing lead is not toxic to the environment.

“I don't believe I ever have. I don't believe I ever will. I'm going to do the best I can to level with the American people.”

First of all no one is forcing anyone to do anything. If you WANT hunt you still have choices just that lead won't be one of them. Bullets are such an infinitesimal part of the equation. Heck the government already FORCES you to buy permission to even hunt thats called licenses and tags which are also restrictive...so don't get to backed into this little box of selective outrage you're building for yourself.

I drive a practical car for my needs and I have a truck as well. The car luckily gets 30 MPG my truck stays parked most of the time. Damn government mileage standards be damned huh! I try to pick up all my hulls. My house has a septic system. Last I checked all water recycles itself and is good to go again if we don't pollute it. By the way I'm sure you think all the people in Southern Calif shouldn't have swimming pools or water either? Funny how we cry about others when it benefits ourselves but are also so willing to put restrictions on anyone else if they compromise us. Everyone is hypocritical to some degree but recognizing those faults in ourselves and not just in others and sharing the burdens does help everyone. I'm no socialist but there is a role for government and those who think they are freewheeling capitalists are hypocrites and usually are calling everyone childish names who don't fall in line with their hypocritical thinking too. There is right and wrong and there are for better or worse still always going to be shades of grey between.

Just because you can't do everything is no reason to NOT do something and certainly we should do what we can. The attitude should be to improve and keep improving, not just to rationalize our behaviors, not to use perfection as the only yardstick. It's ok to fall short and recognize where you have room to improve. The world as well as ourselves are not perfect and I do agree that eventually we will populate ourselves out of house and home by not recognizing how we should continually change and live as harmoniously as possible. The other side of that rationalization is to just give up now and be a carbon footprint pig and not even think about our children. Those without children...well that thought might already be too fleeting to grasp and hit home.

What I do is reload, which allows a host of opportunity not limited to conventional offerings. So I can get a premium tailored load which works out for me most of the time at a less than premium price. Sometimes it's good to think out of the box and other times we need to get kicked out of our little comfortable box we built around our insulated selves or world for our own good.

You know already what's coming throwing yourself down on the ground kicking and screaming won't change that fact although it seems like a popular alternative for small children...but thoughtful adaptation can provide workable alternatives. So don't be a caveman, argue the world is flat or mimic a DoDo...you still do have choices adapt and be successful.

Last edited by marsh-mello on Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:49 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Yes shame on us humans for introducing lead into the environment. How dare we speak out against the government, kicking and screaming like little children. We should just be rolling over and accepting everything the government rams down our throat like good little sheep. I don't get how people can just sit back while their freedoms slowly erode. What's it gonna take, maybe people will start to speak up when we start getting taxed on our co2 emissions from exhaling. I don't know maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion, maybe I just don't like being told what to do.:P

I can think of better things to complain about, like the traffic during the pumpkin festival or the $10 wanted to park at a State beach, or the sewer moratorium, or the gang problem, or the broke government, or the dismissal of police, or...Hey, at least theres fog when everyone else is dripping from the heat and theres a great DU fundraiser every year.

“I don't believe I ever have. I don't believe I ever will. I'm going to do the best I can to level with the American people.”

Jon definitely there are mountains and molehills and issues where we would martyr ourselves...this probably isn't one of those mountains.

Yes we should always challenge government AND ourselves. and at best be a participant and not a puppet. I actually agree with you there is some other factor out there poisoning the condors with lead and certainly eliminating the lead we have has led me to those reasonable conclusions. However I do not think lead is totally a benign element without consequence either and believe there is a responsibility with regard to this issue which allows us to take the high road and to position ourselves to win the battles we would martyr ourselves for down the road. Those battles are coming and on the horizon as well.

I can think of better things to complain about, like the traffic during the pumpkin festival or the $10 wanted to park at a State beach, or the sewer moratorium, or the gang problem, or the broke government, or the dismissal of police, or...Hey, at least theres fog when everyone else is dripping from the heat and theres a great DU fundraiser every year.

Haha you said it. I wouldn't know about the pumpkin festival traffic though always end up duck hunting that weekend;)

Lead center fire rounds being compared to leaded fuel is a poor comparison for fixing environmental problems. Look at the number of people that drive cars compared to the numbers who hunt big game ( Not even in the same ballpark PAL). Really, nice third grade comparison. Next, we will compare balistics of .22 and .338 and discuss how they are similar! back to reality.

And by the way, nice way to beat up on the families that may have mentally or physically handicapped children with the "short bus" comment. I'm sure your the guy that pisses on the handicapped blinds at refuges too. :thumbsup

Marsh, you make some good points about compromise and only doing certain things to help the environment and you state the lead bullets are such a minimal part of the equation, what gives you the right to pick and choose what things you want to help out with. Is it a societal norm that gives you the satisfaction of picking how you want to help the environment? If it's non toxic ammo turning into a societal norm, what other states are mandating non toxic? Answer 0. There are a hell of a lot more hunters in just a few states in the mid west compared to California, so far they are not drinking the KoolAid.

Doesn't it seem a little weird that there was only a specific Condor range in 2007 with a specific area ban. And then miracously its a state wide ban?? The condors must have figured out the DFW's proposed plan and sent out an email for all the birds to expand the range to the state borders.

What does that tell you about the initial study? It was AFU.....At what point do just sit back and laugh and say thanks for wasting my money, jack! And now your going to make me pay more because of your crappy study.

There's so many other issues more important than lead ammunition it's ridiculous. All these people afield being checked in the lead free zones. How many of your neighbors have you seen cited for stormwater violations (Clean Water Act)? Pet waste, pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, motor oil, antifreeze, paint, household chemicals all being dumped into storm drains and going untreated into the ocean.

IMO I'm just hearing the sound of boots toeing the party lines. And this is coming from someone who doesn't mind copper bullets. I just don't like being told what to do when the only rational behind it is speculation. Sure, unnecessary lead deposits aren't going to help the environment. But what if the actual environmental impact of lead ammunition in big game hunting is negligible? Seems like it's a perfect solution to a non-existent problem. That kind of legislation is unacceptable and is a waste of taxpayer dollars as well as sportsman's dollars. Not to mention an unnecessary burden on sportsmen. There's much bigger issues in this state. IMO it's pretty telling when a bill sponsored by special interest is pushed through with no real science to back it up. There's an agenda. I do believe that there is a huge population in this state that is against or indifferent to hunting. Being indifferent is just as dangerous to us sportsman as being against. There aren't bills to expand our hunting privileges. Just take them away. Indifferent voters have no reason to vote against a bill they don't care about. And the special interest know that. Get a bill on the ballot and watch the anti's and indifferent's yes vote outnumber the no vote of the sportsmen. All they had to do was mention that it (may) save California Condors and you have just won yourself a lead free bill. It's so easy why not go statewide. And guess what's next. The same special interest that has outright admitted it wants to see the end of hunting and backed the lead free bill is pushing to ban the hunting of bobcats AND the use of dogs to pursue ANY wildlife in CA. That's right. That lab you own who knows what it means when she heard the sound of decoys in a mesh bag and the sound of your gun safe opening. The lab that lives to retrieve will be banned from doing so. All it takes is a bill on a ballot.

No one likes being told what to do...now we're getting down to the nitty gritty of the issue it seems. More like those same boots being accused of marching in lock step just digging in heels, being recalcitrant to change. Actually a well known human condition...who moved my cheese?

People have mentioning this as some principle of freedom which is also a bit of a stretch. Hardly a constitutional problem we have here. I am more than sure that folks said the same things about banning of DDT and how banning it would be the death of farming and industry. We do have laws regarding the litany of environmental issues, oil disposal, antifreeze, etc... and many more disposal sites than we had many years ago along with the understanding and education that these are real problems that can only be addressed by our compliance and acceptance. To be quite honest I don't see my neighbors nor do I myself thankfully dump anything of the sorts down the drains and on to the rivers and ocean. Do you really see this...probably not, however, you recognize it as a real issue to your benefit whereas it also used to be accepted as a societal norm in the past. Thankfully we have come a long way with rules impinging on our "freedom" to continue to do so, wouldn't you agree.

I wouldn't elevate this to the environmental disposition of nuclear waste, however, it is a real issue in a matter of degree and a inflammatory public relations victory we could easily champion instead of arguing among ourselves when the writing is not only on the wall it's already been etched in stone, right? I would ask how many of the concerned individuals presented these views through the public forum and legislative contacts when it was open for comment and consideration? Probably no one, and if you did then you have a legitimate foundation for your expression otherwise not so much so.

Mentioning societal norms as the subjective determining acceptance is probably right. Being seen arguing and debating these sorts of issues makes you look like an unreasonable extremist in the views of most reasonable majority of the public. Someone mentioned chicken little well crying wolf in your own support has a more sinister and self defeating aspect to it in the same vein.

I was in the Marine Corps. I don't mind being told what to do. Hell, I'm married. I'm still being told what to do. It's being "governed" without proof of a good reason that irritates me. Sure, there may be push back from people who just don't want to be told what to do but if lead free isn't justified it's wrong and push back is necessary IMO. I don't mind shooting copper. I don't like relinquishing ground to antis when I shouldn't have to.

With regards to stormwater pollution, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening. We know it is. Anyway, it's not my platform, it's just an example of more pressing environmental issues.

I do understand your point and I do believe there is merit to what you say and I share those same types of "irritations", At some point though given the reality, it's just time to move on productively. I don't believe the lead out there from hunters bullets is the main cause of the condors plight, although it would have been hard to logically debate that point prior to the ban. However, you can't say lead is a benign metal either, so at this juncture it's probably better to suck it up look at the WHOLE issue logically rather than making some other non related and inflammatory position. Doing so makes us look like members of the outer fringes of the fringe.

Probably good place for people to vent as a cathartic exercise in that manner it can serve a positive function, those folks who seem to blow their stack over just about everything should have their blood pressure checked regularly.

Prices for ALL ammo seems to have jumped up ridiculously in the past year lead or not. Check out the prices in the link not too prohibitively expensive IMHO unless you shoot a .375 H&H or are sighting in with a whole box in your favorite 570 Nitro Express ? Then what's a box of bullets compared to the price of your African safari?