Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com

"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to indicate
language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware of
all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can be
implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have to
do. They're pretty, too.
"I might be willing to have my arm twisted to do a
internationalization/localization readiness report on slashcode. I haven't
looked at the code for a while, but I am looking for a open source project
where I can do that with supportive developers, and then possibly organize
an effort to get it done."
That would be great, Barry. Thanks very much.
"Btw, you missed Method C, which is the right one, which is to make all
internal processing happen in Unicode. Esp. now that Perl 5.8 handles it so
much better then before. At the very least, the data storage needs to be in
Unicode. then you don't need to mess with storing 600 different encodings
and variations in the database. The DB would not even need to know what
language a entry is in, nor should slash itself care."
So slash isn't currently working with Unicode? Would it be very difficult to
get that to happen?
"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and display
properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers, that is
possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying multiple
languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a site
called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be able to
deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment posted.
Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all internal
processing in Unicode?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel suggests: Humanize something free of error
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
<slashcode-development@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> As a 10 year+ veteran of internationalization and localization engineering
and management, I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device
to indicate language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea. Flags are
not concomitant with language, time zone, culture, or anything else except a
country (and even then they tend to change). Not only that, but countries
are not concomitant with any locale items either, and quite often the
population of a country is divided over whether a flag represents them or
disenfranchises them.
>
> The best ui element to represent language is text in the actual language.
If you can't expect your user's browsers to be able to display that in plain
text for all the languages you have in mind, (which is usually the case),
then the best solution is a small bitmap that displays it.
>
> There I just saved you the 1500 dollars it usually costs to attend a
course or conference where these things are discussed :)
>
> I might be willing to have my arm twisted to do a
internationalization/localization readiness report on slashcode. I haven't
looked at the code for a while, but I am looking for a open source project
where I can do that with supportive developers, and then possibly organize
an effort to get it done.
>
> Btw, you missed Method C, which is the right one, which is to make all
internal processing happen in Unicode. Esp. now that Perl 5.8 handles it so
much better then before. At the very least, the data storage needs to be in
Unicode. then you don't need to mess with storing 600 different encodings
and variations in the database. The DB would not even need to know what
language a entry is in, nor should slash itself care.
>
> In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and display
properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers, that is
possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying multiple
languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a site
called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)
>
>
> Best,
>
> Barry Caplan
>
> At 05:16 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>
> >"I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for different
> >languages."
> >
> >Well, as far as where slash stands right now from a multilingual
perspective
> >it would be a quick and easy workaround. Basically, when the user clicks
on
> >the language flag, they'd silently set a "language pref". So that their
> >language choice sticks with them as they navigate...at least until they
hit
> >another flag which will silently
> >reset their pref....etc etc
> >
> >Of course, ideally a language pref would be a part of the user's Log in
box.
> >Would that be very easy to do?
> >
> >As far as my three different methods for dealing with both localization
and
> >internationalization issues are concerned:
> >
> >for Method A:
> >
> >"The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually
> >creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each."
> >
> >Well, yes, exactly. From a hypothetical perspective it would/will be
> >interesting to see which is more popular: the slash where all languages
can
> >join in or the ghettoized slashes where each language sticks with its
own.
> >I'm assuming the latter. Still, the only website I've found which is
> >currently doing what I want slash to be able to do is this one:
> >http://blogalization.org/community/weblog.php . So I'm wondering what the
> >isolated issues are which prevent slash from being like
blogalization.org.
> >
> >for Method B:
> >
> >"The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will
> >be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be
> >the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single
> >discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages
> >than the language for the story that's being read at that particular
> >time."
> >
> >Well the whole point of trying to do what I'm doing (or what I'm trying
to
> >make slash do) is to make anyone be able to post or comment on a story in
> >whichever character set they choose to.
> >
> >I'm not so sure I'm completely sold on Method B, to tell you the truth.
The
> >idea simply came to me when I realized that localization and
> >internationalization are two completely different beasts which don't
really
> >need to be.
> >
> >My goal is to have any and all character sets, both Romanized and
> >non-Romanized, be recognized and accommodated by slash in all corners of
the
> >code, only tertiarily am I interested in ghettoizing slash locally by
> >language, but the way I figure it, as long as these issues are on the
table
> >might as well try and stretch slash as far as it can to see if we can
push
> >the code into a whole other realm than it's been used to.
> >
> >"PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or
> >http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows
> >them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here."
> >
> >Try again. Must have been sunspots. :-)
> >
> >
> >Malcolm Lawrence
> >Editor-in-Chief
> >Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> >online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> >http://www.towerofbabel.com
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >Babel reminds you: Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Shane" <shane@...>
> >To: <slashcode-development@...>
> >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:08 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> >
> >
> >> Wow, interesting dilemas here!!
> >>
> >> I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for
> >> different languages.
> >>
> >> Method A:
> >>
> >> On one hand, this is a fantastic way to do it it - you could take one
> >> story, submitted in english, have it translated, then post it in any
> >> relavent section that a translation has been done.
> >> That way each discussion (and it's comments) are in *each section's
> >> language*.
> >>
> >> The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually
> >> creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each.
> >>
> >> Method B:
> >>
> >> It would seem that since the templates have a 'lang' field (defaults to
> >> 'en_US') it would be more appropriate if
> >> the table story_text's schema were modified to have such a field.
> >>
> >> Then when a site did the dispStory template et all and did the query to
> >> get a story, that query would use $users->{lang} to determine which set
> >> of information to pull out of story_info. (yes, this is oversimplified,
> >> but you get the idea).
> >>
> >> The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will
> >> be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be
> >> the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single
> >> discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages
> >> than the language for the story that's being read at that particular
> >> time.
> >>
> >>
> >> There's another thought - with the section-topic changes, I don't see a
> >> 'lang' field in the skins schema.
> >> I don't know whether that's good or bad, for your situation.
> >>
> >> Interesting discussion, nonetheless. Great to see such issues brought
> >> up about the code on the devel-list.
> >>
> >> Shane
> >>
> >> PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or
> >> http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows
> >> them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here.
> >>
> >> On Jun 30, 2004, at 7:40 PM, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> >>
> >> > Greetings all,
> >> >
> >> > My name is Malcolm Lawrence and I'm the guiding force behind the
> >> > construction of Babel: The multilingual, multicultural online journal
> >> > and community of arts and ideas which has recently incorporated
> >> > slashcode on our site on our Map page.
> >> >
> >> > If you're unfamiliar with Babel, we have over 300 translators in 75
> >> > languages offering their services to help translate the site. We are
a
> >> > non-profit organization, the translators are voluntary and work on
the
> >> > site because they enjoy it (kind of like Linux). Those translators
who
> >> > work on the site get their resume featured on the site. It's not
> >> > exactly an open source project because I do ask that potential
> >> > translators submit their resume or CV before being allowed to begin
> >> > translating the site so I can see their education, skills, experience
> >> > and knowledge base with translating in order to ensure that Babel's
> >> > standards of excellence are maintained.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, as far as the goal I'm trying to reach with Babel is
> >> > concerned, ideally one day any user will be able to submit any story
> >> > in any language which will then be able to be posted in any language
> >> > and any user will be able to post comments in any language, all on
the
> >> > same page of code.
> >> >
> >> > But there are still some multilingual issues with slashcode and
> >> > apparently I'm not the first person who has wanted to solve them. My
> >> > interest in wanting to solve them is primarily based upon fulfilling
> >> > the je nais se quoi of the original idea of the Babel site so I
> >> > thought I'd step in to see if I can regain interest in solving the
> >> > issues in slashcode.
> >> >
> >> > I guess the first thing I'm curious about since I'm unfamlilar with
> >> > i18n issues with slashcode is exactly what are the core problems
> >> > needing to be solved in the code for multilingual issues and how
> >> > difficult are they to solve?
> >> >
> >> > With the code as it is on my site right now slash has its variable
set
> >> > for US English since at the present time there is no way for an
author
> >> > to post a story, nor for a user to post a comment, in whichever
> >> > language they wish. However, Cliff Wood, the senior administrator for
> >> > my new ISP as well as one of the slashcode developers, and I are
> >> > currently working on a solution which will enable other languages to
> >> > use the slashcode part of Babel, although not simultaneously.
> >> >
> >> > What this means is that we're going to have subdomains under
> >> > towerofbabel.com for 8 other languages (to start off with) to have
> >> > their own particular version of Babel's slash code. The other
> >> > languages we'll start with will be Spanish, French, German, Italian,
> >> > Dutch, Estonian, Japanese and Russian. I've chosen these languages
> >> > initially because with the exception of French they are all languages
> >> > which are currently using slashcode successfully. (To see them all go
> >> > here. What I plan to do is have each language's slashcode page linked
> >> > to their respective flag off the homepage and designate the
particular
> >> > language's subdomain using these l10n codes into the url. For
example,
> >> > ja_jp.towerofbabel.com for Japanese, eo.towerofbabel.com for
> >> > Esperanto, etc.
> >> >
> >> > As far as my goal for Babel is concerned, that will obviously be the
> >> > day when we won't necessarily need other language-specific versions
of
> >> > Babel, as all languages will be compatible in the same page of code,
> >> > but as you'll see from my idea below, perhaps other language-specific
> >> > versions of Babel would be an entirely separate idea which is worthy
> >> > in its own right.
> >> >
> >> > What I'm curious about as far as using subdomains are concerned
> >> > is...will each one use it's own slash and in essence be segregated
> >> > unto itself or would it be possible to have a mezzanine effect,
> >> > whereas the user chooses their flag, which maps to their language's
> >> > particular subdomain, but the stories for each slash are from one
main
> >> > slash which each slash would view? Is such a thing possible or
doable?
> >> >
> >> > I'm also wondering whether those sites which are using slash for
other
> >> > languages have translated the code themselves into their native
> >> > languages and if so whether they've donated their translations for
> >> > their own slash site to the slashcode community. If not, one of the
> >> > things I'd like to spearhead is an initiative to get all of the inner
> >> > workings of the code translated into other languages and then donate
> >> > them to the slashcode development community so that when someone in
> >> > another language wishes to start using slashcode on their site, they
> >> > already have it translated and ready to go. Having slash sites
> >> > translated so that a virgin site would be all ready to go straight
out
> >> > of the box in a number of languages would be a great benefit to the
> >> > open source community.
> >> >
> >> > Should anyone be interested in my personal immediate plans for slash
> >> > on my site what I'd ideally like to do is this:
> >> >
> >> > Currently I am the only author on my slash site and I have been
> >> > posting some stories to get the hang of using slash. Ala Slashdot,
any
> >> > user can feel free to submit a story or url and add their own
> >> > comments. But this is where I want to open Babel up to the world. I
> >> > don't want to be the only author, I want others to help me.
> >> >
> >> > Ideally I'd like to have not only Babel fans and contributors but
also
> >> > some of the Babel translators join me as authors on the current
> >> > boilerplate English slash site so they can get a feel for how
> >> > slashcode works for a while until they get the hang of it and then
> >> > once the other versions of the slash site are up in the other 8
> >> > languages (8 other languages only initially. Hopefully soon we'll
have
> >> > all 75 languages up), encouraging the translators to be in charge of
> >> > their particular native language's version of the Babel slash. With
> >> > the eventual goal being to have the inner workings of each language's
> >> > slash site translated so they can in essence be free to deal with the
> >> > code on an administrative level in their own native language.
> >> >
> >> > What this means is that it would be great if, say, on the Spanish
> >> > Babel slash site there were a handful of authors who were Spanish
> >> > translators, and hopefully not from the same country. It would be
> >> > ideal if there was one author from Argentina, one from Mexico, one
> >> > from Spain etc. so you could all post stories or even find some
> >> > yourself about issues particular to your specific country or your
> >> > specific artistic passion.
> >> >
> >> > What I'm basically trying to do is take i18n and l10n and tie them
> >> > together in a meaningful and constructive way. So in essence there
> >> > would ideally be three language settings for slash:
> >> >
> >> > 1. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in
> >> > their own localized language which will then be able to be posted in
> >> > only their own localized language and users will be able to post
> >> > comments in that localized language. (For example, Spanish speakers
in
> >> > Peru would have a slash dealing with their own localized version of
> >> > Spanish at "es_PE.towerofbabel.com".) This is currently how slashcode
> >> > is configured, to operate as a localized code. I'll call this a
single
> >> > slash.
> >> >
> >> > 2. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in
> >> > their own particular localized language which would then be posted on
> >> > their own particular internationalized language version of the code.
> >> > (This would be unnecessary for many languages such as Welsh or
> >> > Finnish.) For example, posters from Spain, Mexico and Argentina all
> >> > being able to post their stories to a main Spanish Babel slash at
> >> > "es.towerofbabel.com". This would be an internationalized slashcode
if
> >> > it were to be confingured. I'll call this a double slash.
> >> >
> >> > 3. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in any
> >> > language which will then be able to be posted in any language and any
> >> > user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the same
> >> > page of code. This would be a multilingualized slashcode if it were
to
> >> > be configured. I'll call this an omni slash.
> >> >
> >> > Please let me know whatever comments, suggestions or ideas you may
> >> > have.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Malcolm Lawrence
> >> > Editor-in-Chief
> >> > Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> >> > online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> >> > http://www.towerofbabel.com
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Babel: Just when you thought you were at critical mass.
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> --
> >> One gadget to catch them all, and in digital darkness bind them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------
> >> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> >> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
> >> digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
> >> unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Slashcode-development mailing list
> >> Slashcode-development@...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> >Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
> >digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
> >unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >Slashcode-development mailing list
> >Slashcode-development@...
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
>
>

Thread view

Greetings all,
My name is Malcolm Lawrence and I=92m the guiding force behind the =
construction of Babel: The multilingual, multicultural online journal =
and community of arts and ideas which has recently incorporated =
slashcode on our site on our Map page.
If you=92re unfamiliar with Babel, we have over 300 translators in 75 =
languages offering their services to help translate the site. We are a =
non-profit organization, the translators are voluntary and work on the =
site because they enjoy it (kind of like Linux). Those translators who =
work on the site get their resume featured on the site. It=92s not =
exactly an open source project because I do ask that potential =
translators submit their resume or CV before being allowed to begin =
translating the site so I can see their education, skills, experience =
and knowledge base with translating in order to ensure that Babel=92s =
standards of excellence are maintained.
Anyway, as far as the goal I=92m trying to reach with Babel is =
concerned, ideally one day any user will be able to submit any story in =
any language which will then be able to be posted in any language and =
any user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the same =
page of code.
But there are still some multilingual issues with slashcode and =
apparently I=92m not the first person who has wanted to solve them. My =
interest in wanting to solve them is primarily based upon fulfilling the =
je nais se quoi of the original idea of the Babel site so I thought =
I=92d step in to see if I can regain interest in solving the issues in =
slashcode.
I guess the first thing I=92m curious about since I=92m unfamlilar with =
i18n issues with slashcode is exactly what are the core problems needing =
to be solved in the code for multilingual issues and how difficult are =
they to solve?
With the code as it is on my site right now slash has its variable set =
for US English since at the present time there is no way for an author =
to post a story, nor for a user to post a comment, in whichever language =
they wish. However, Cliff Wood, the senior administrator for my new ISP =
as well as one of the slashcode developers, and I are currently working =
on a solution which will enable other languages to use the slashcode =
part of Babel, although not simultaneously.
What this means is that we=92re going to have subdomains under =
towerofbabel.com for 8 other languages (to start off with) to have their =
own particular version of Babel=92s slash code. The other languages =
we=92ll start with will be Spanish, French, German, Italian, Dutch, =
Estonian, Japanese and Russian. I=92ve chosen these languages initially =
because with the exception of French they are all languages which are =
currently using slashcode successfully. (To see them all go here. What I =
plan to do is have each language=92s slashcode page linked to their =
respective flag off the homepage and designate the particular =
language=92s subdomain using these l10n codes into the url. For example, =
ja_jp.towerofbabel.com for Japanese, eo.towerofbabel.com for Esperanto, =
etc.
As far as my goal for Babel is concerned, that will obviously be the day =
when we won=92t necessarily need other language-specific versions of =
Babel, as all languages will be compatible in the same page of code, but =
as you=92ll see from my idea below, perhaps other language-specific =
versions of Babel would be an entirely separate idea which is worthy in =
its own right.
What I'm curious about as far as using subdomains are concerned =
is...will each one use it's own slash and in essence be segregated unto =
itself or would it be possible to have a mezzanine effect, whereas the =
user chooses their flag, which maps to their language's particular =
subdomain, but the stories for each slash are from one main slash which =
each slash would view? Is such a thing possible or doable?
I=92m also wondering whether those sites which are using slash for other =
languages have translated the code themselves into their native =
languages and if so whether they=92ve donated their translations for =
their own slash site to the slashcode community. If not, one of the =
things I=92d like to spearhead is an initiative to get all of the inner =
workings of the code translated into other languages and then donate =
them to the slashcode development community so that when someone in =
another language wishes to start using slashcode on their site, they =
already have it translated and ready to go. Having slash sites =
translated so that a virgin site would be all ready to go straight out =
of the box in a number of languages would be a great benefit to the open =
source community.
Should anyone be interested in my personal immediate plans for slash on =
my site what I=92d ideally like to do is this:
Currently I am the only author on my slash site and I have been posting =
some stories to get the hang of using slash. Ala Slashdot, any user can =
feel free to submit a story or url and add their own comments. But this =
is where I want to open Babel up to the world. I don=92t want to be the =
only author, I want others to help me.
Ideally I'd like to have not only Babel fans and contributors but also =
some of the Babel translators join me as authors on the current =
boilerplate English slash site so they can get a feel for how slashcode =
works for a while until they get the hang of it and then once the other =
versions of the slash site are up in the other 8 languages (8 other =
languages only initially. Hopefully soon we=92ll have all 75 languages =
up), encouraging the translators to be in charge of their particular =
native language's version of the Babel slash. With the eventual goal =
being to have the inner workings of each language=92s slash site =
translated so they can in essence be free to deal with the code on an =
administrative level in their own native language.
What this means is that it would be great if, say, on the Spanish Babel =
slash site there were a handful of authors who were Spanish translators, =
and hopefully not from the same country. It would be ideal if there was =
one author from Argentina, one from Mexico, one from Spain etc. so you =
could all post stories or even find some yourself about issues =
particular to your specific country or your specific artistic passion.
What I=92m basically trying to do is take i18n and l10n and tie them =
together in a meaningful and constructive way. So in essence there would =
ideally be three language settings for slash:
1. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in their =
own localized language which will then be able to be posted in only =
their own localized language and users will be able to post comments in =
that localized language. (For example, Spanish speakers in Peru would =
have a slash dealing with their own localized version of Spanish at =
=93es_PE.towerofbabel.com=94.) This is currently how slashcode is =
configured, to operate as a localized code. I=92ll call this a single =
slash.
2. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in their =
own particular localized language which would then be posted on their =
own particular internationalized language version of the code. (This =
would be unnecessary for many languages such as Welsh or Finnish.) For =
example, posters from Spain, Mexico and Argentina all being able to post =
their stories to a main Spanish Babel slash at =
=93es.towerofbabel.com=94. This would be an internationalized slashcode =
if it were to be confingured. I=92ll call this a double slash.
3. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in any =
language which will then be able to be posted in any language and any =
user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the same page =
of code. This would be a multilingualized slashcode if it were to be =
configured. I=92ll call this an omni slash.
Please let me know whatever comments, suggestions or ideas you may have.
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel: Just when you thought you were at critical mass.
------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, interesting dilemas here!!
I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for=20
different languages.
Method A:
On one hand, this is a fantastic way to do it it - you could take one=20
story, submitted in english, have it translated, then post it in any=20
relavent section that a translation has been done.
That way each discussion (and it's comments) are in *each section's=20
language*.
The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually=20
creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each.
Method B:
It would seem that since the templates have a 'lang' field (defaults to=20=
'en_US') it would be more appropriate if
the table story_text's schema were modified to have such a field.
Then when a site did the dispStory template et all and did the query to=20=
get a story, that query would use $users->{lang} to determine which set=20=
of information to pull out of story_info. (yes, this is oversimplified,=20=
but you get the idea).
The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will=20
be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be=20=
the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single=20=
discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages=20=
than the language for the story that's being read at that particular=20
time.
There's another thought - with the section-topic changes, I don't see a=20=
'lang' field in the skins schema.
I don't know whether that's good or bad, for your situation.
Interesting discussion, nonetheless. Great to see such issues brought=20
up about the code on the devel-list.
Shane
PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or =20
http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows=20
them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here.
On Jun 30, 2004, at 7:40 PM, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> My name is Malcolm Lawrence and I=92m the guiding force behind the=20
> construction of Babel: The multilingual, multicultural online journal=20=
> and community of arts and ideas which has recently incorporated=20
> slashcode on our site on our Map page.
>
> If you=92re unfamiliar with Babel, we have over 300 translators in 75=20=
> languages offering their services to help translate the site. We are a=20=
> non-profit organization, the translators are voluntary and work on the=20=
> site because they enjoy it (kind of like Linux). Those translators who=20=
> work on the site get their resume featured on the site. It=92s not=20
> exactly an open source project because I do ask that potential=20
> translators submit their resume or CV before being allowed to begin=20
> translating the site so I can see their education, skills, experience=20=
> and knowledge base with translating in order to ensure that Babel=92s=20=
> standards of excellence are maintained.
>
> Anyway, as far as the goal I=92m trying to reach with Babel is=20
> concerned, ideally one day any user will be able to submit any story=20=
> in any language which will then be able to be posted in any language=20=
> and any user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the=20=
> same page of code.
>
> But there are still some multilingual issues with slashcode and=20
> apparently I=92m not the first person who has wanted to solve them. My=20=
> interest in wanting to solve them is primarily based upon fulfilling=20=
> the je nais se quoi of the original idea of the Babel site so I=20
> thought I=92d step in to see if I can regain interest in solving the=20=
> issues in slashcode.
>
> I guess the first thing I=92m curious about since I=92m unfamlilar =
with=20
> i18n issues with slashcode is exactly what are the core problems=20
> needing to be solved in the code for multilingual issues and how=20
> difficult are they to solve?
>
> With the code as it is on my site right now slash has its variable set=20=
> for US English since at the present time there is no way for an author=20=
> to post a story, nor for a user to post a comment, in whichever=20
> language they wish. However, Cliff Wood, the senior administrator for=20=
> my new ISP as well as one of the slashcode developers, and I are=20
> currently working on a solution which will enable other languages to=20=
> use the slashcode part of Babel, although not simultaneously.
>
> What this means is that we=92re going to have subdomains under=20
> towerofbabel.com for 8 other languages (to start off with) to have=20
> their own particular version of Babel=92s slash code. The other=20
> languages we=92ll start with will be Spanish, French, German, Italian,=20=
> Dutch, Estonian, Japanese and Russian. I=92ve chosen these languages=20=
> initially because with the exception of French they are all languages=20=
> which are currently using slashcode successfully. (To see them all go=20=
> here. What I plan to do is have each language=92s slashcode page =
linked=20
> to their respective flag off the homepage and designate the particular=20=
> language=92s subdomain using these l10n codes into the url. For =
example,=20
> ja_jp.towerofbabel.com for Japanese, eo.towerofbabel.com for=20
> Esperanto, etc.
>
> As far as my goal for Babel is concerned, that will obviously be the=20=
> day when we won=92t necessarily need other language-specific versions =
of=20
> Babel, as all languages will be compatible in the same page of code,=20=
> but as you=92ll see from my idea below, perhaps other =
language-specific=20
> versions of Babel would be an entirely separate idea which is worthy=20=
> in its own right.
>
> What I'm curious about as far as using subdomains are concerned=20
> is...will each one use it's own slash and in essence be segregated=20
> unto itself or would it be possible to have a mezzanine effect,=20
> whereas the user chooses their flag, which maps to their language's=20
> particular subdomain, but the stories for each slash are from one main=20=
> slash which each slash would view? Is such a thing possible or doable?
>
> I=92m also wondering whether those sites which are using slash for =
other=20
> languages have translated the code themselves into their native=20
> languages and if so whether they=92ve donated their translations for=20=
> their own slash site to the slashcode community. If not, one of the=20
> things I=92d like to spearhead is an initiative to get all of the =
inner=20
> workings of the code translated into other languages and then donate=20=
> them to the slashcode development community so that when someone in=20
> another language wishes to start using slashcode on their site, they=20=
> already have it translated and ready to go. Having slash sites=20
> translated so that a virgin site would be all ready to go straight out=20=
> of the box in a number of languages would be a great benefit to the=20
> open source community.
>
> Should anyone be interested in my personal immediate plans for slash=20=
> on my site what I=92d ideally like to do is this:
>
> Currently I am the only author on my slash site and I have been=20
> posting some stories to get the hang of using slash. Ala Slashdot, any=20=
> user can feel free to submit a story or url and add their own=20
> comments. But this is where I want to open Babel up to the world. I=20
> don=92t want to be the only author, I want others to help me.
>
> Ideally I'd like to have not only Babel fans and contributors but also=20=
> some of the Babel translators join me as authors on the current=20
> boilerplate English slash site so they can get a feel for how=20
> slashcode works for a while until they get the hang of it and then=20
> once the other versions of the slash site are up in the other 8=20
> languages (8 other languages only initially. Hopefully soon we=92ll =
have=20
> all 75 languages up), encouraging the translators to be in charge of=20=
> their particular native language's version of the Babel slash. With=20
> the eventual goal being to have the inner workings of each language=92s=20=
> slash site translated so they can in essence be free to deal with the=20=
> code on an administrative level in their own native language.
>
> What this means is that it would be great if, say, on the Spanish=20
> Babel slash site there were a handful of authors who were Spanish=20
> translators, and hopefully not from the same country. It would be=20
> ideal if there was one author from Argentina, one from Mexico, one=20
> from Spain etc. so you could all post stories or even find some=20
> yourself about issues particular to your specific country or your=20
> specific artistic passion.
>
> What I=92m basically trying to do is take i18n and l10n and tie them=20=
> together in a meaningful and constructive way. So in essence there=20
> would ideally be three language settings for slash:
>
> 1. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in=20
> their own localized language which will then be able to be posted in=20=
> only their own localized language and users will be able to post=20
> comments in that localized language. (For example, Spanish speakers in=20=
> Peru would have a slash dealing with their own localized version of=20
> Spanish at =93es_PE.towerofbabel.com=94.) This is currently how =
slashcode=20
> is configured, to operate as a localized code. I=92ll call this a =
single=20
> slash.
>
> 2. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in=20
> their own particular localized language which would then be posted on=20=
> their own particular internationalized language version of the code.=20=
> (This would be unnecessary for many languages such as Welsh or=20
> Finnish.) For example, posters from Spain, Mexico and Argentina all=20
> being able to post their stories to a main Spanish Babel slash at=20
> =93es.towerofbabel.com=94. This would be an internationalized =
slashcode if=20
> it were to be confingured. I=92ll call this a double slash.
>
> 3. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in any=20=
> language which will then be able to be posted in any language and any=20=
> user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the same=20
> page of code. This would be a multilingualized slashcode if it were to=20=
> be configured. I=92ll call this an omni slash.
>
> Please let me know whatever comments, suggestions or ideas you may=20
> have.
> =A0
> =A0
> Malcolm Lawrence
> Editor-in-Chief
> Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> http://www.towerofbabel.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Babel: Just when you thought you were at critical mass.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
One gadget to catch them all, and in digital darkness bind them.

"I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for different
languages."
Well, as far as where slash stands right now from a multilingual perspective
it would be a quick and easy workaround. Basically, when the user clicks on
the language flag, they'd silently set a "language pref". So that their
language choice sticks with them as they navigate...at least until they hit
another flag which will silently
reset their pref....etc etc
Of course, ideally a language pref would be a part of the user's Log in box.
Would that be very easy to do?
As far as my three different methods for dealing with both localization and
internationalization issues are concerned:
for Method A:
"The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually
creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each."
Well, yes, exactly. From a hypothetical perspective it would/will be
interesting to see which is more popular: the slash where all languages can
join in or the ghettoized slashes where each language sticks with its own.
I'm assuming the latter. Still, the only website I've found which is
currently doing what I want slash to be able to do is this one:
http://blogalization.org/community/weblog.php . So I'm wondering what the
isolated issues are which prevent slash from being like blogalization.org.
for Method B:
"The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will
be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be
the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single
discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages
than the language for the story that's being read at that particular
time."
Well the whole point of trying to do what I'm doing (or what I'm trying to
make slash do) is to make anyone be able to post or comment on a story in
whichever character set they choose to.
I'm not so sure I'm completely sold on Method B, to tell you the truth. The
idea simply came to me when I realized that localization and
internationalization are two completely different beasts which don't really
need to be.
My goal is to have any and all character sets, both Romanized and
non-Romanized, be recognized and accommodated by slash in all corners of the
code, only tertiarily am I interested in ghettoizing slash locally by
language, but the way I figure it, as long as these issues are on the table
might as well try and stretch slash as far as it can to see if we can push
the code into a whole other realm than it's been used to.
"PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or
http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows
them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here."
Try again. Must have been sunspots. :-)
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel reminds you: Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shane" <shane@...>
To: <slashcode-development@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> Wow, interesting dilemas here!!
>
> I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for
> different languages.
>
> Method A:
>
> On one hand, this is a fantastic way to do it it - you could take one
> story, submitted in english, have it translated, then post it in any
> relavent section that a translation has been done.
> That way each discussion (and it's comments) are in *each section's
> language*.
>
> The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually
> creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each.
>
> Method B:
>
> It would seem that since the templates have a 'lang' field (defaults to
> 'en_US') it would be more appropriate if
> the table story_text's schema were modified to have such a field.
>
> Then when a site did the dispStory template et all and did the query to
> get a story, that query would use $users->{lang} to determine which set
> of information to pull out of story_info. (yes, this is oversimplified,
> but you get the idea).
>
> The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will
> be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be
> the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single
> discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages
> than the language for the story that's being read at that particular
> time.
>
>
> There's another thought - with the section-topic changes, I don't see a
> 'lang' field in the skins schema.
> I don't know whether that's good or bad, for your situation.
>
> Interesting discussion, nonetheless. Great to see such issues brought
> up about the code on the devel-list.
>
> Shane
>
> PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or
> http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows
> them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here.
>
> On Jun 30, 2004, at 7:40 PM, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>
> > Greetings all,
> >
> > My name is Malcolm Lawrence and I’m the guiding force behind the
> > construction of Babel: The multilingual, multicultural online journal
> > and community of arts and ideas which has recently incorporated
> > slashcode on our site on our Map page.
> >
> > If you’re unfamiliar with Babel, we have over 300 translators in 75
> > languages offering their services to help translate the site. We are a
> > non-profit organization, the translators are voluntary and work on the
> > site because they enjoy it (kind of like Linux). Those translators who
> > work on the site get their resume featured on the site. It’s not
> > exactly an open source project because I do ask that potential
> > translators submit their resume or CV before being allowed to begin
> > translating the site so I can see their education, skills, experience
> > and knowledge base with translating in order to ensure that Babel’s
> > standards of excellence are maintained.
> >
> > Anyway, as far as the goal I’m trying to reach with Babel is
> > concerned, ideally one day any user will be able to submit any story
> > in any language which will then be able to be posted in any language
> > and any user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the
> > same page of code.
> >
> > But there are still some multilingual issues with slashcode and
> > apparently I’m not the first person who has wanted to solve them. My
> > interest in wanting to solve them is primarily based upon fulfilling
> > the je nais se quoi of the original idea of the Babel site so I
> > thought I’d step in to see if I can regain interest in solving the
> > issues in slashcode.
> >
> > I guess the first thing I’m curious about since I’m unfamlilar with
> > i18n issues with slashcode is exactly what are the core problems
> > needing to be solved in the code for multilingual issues and how
> > difficult are they to solve?
> >
> > With the code as it is on my site right now slash has its variable set
> > for US English since at the present time there is no way for an author
> > to post a story, nor for a user to post a comment, in whichever
> > language they wish. However, Cliff Wood, the senior administrator for
> > my new ISP as well as one of the slashcode developers, and I are
> > currently working on a solution which will enable other languages to
> > use the slashcode part of Babel, although not simultaneously.
> >
> > What this means is that we’re going to have subdomains under
> > towerofbabel.com for 8 other languages (to start off with) to have
> > their own particular version of Babel’s slash code. The other
> > languages we’ll start with will be Spanish, French, German, Italian,
> > Dutch, Estonian, Japanese and Russian. I’ve chosen these languages
> > initially because with the exception of French they are all languages
> > which are currently using slashcode successfully. (To see them all go
> > here. What I plan to do is have each language’s slashcode page linked
> > to their respective flag off the homepage and designate the particular
> > language’s subdomain using these l10n codes into the url. For example,
> > ja_jp.towerofbabel.com for Japanese, eo.towerofbabel.com for
> > Esperanto, etc.
> >
> > As far as my goal for Babel is concerned, that will obviously be the
> > day when we won’t necessarily need other language-specific versions of
> > Babel, as all languages will be compatible in the same page of code,
> > but as you’ll see from my idea below, perhaps other language-specific
> > versions of Babel would be an entirely separate idea which is worthy
> > in its own right.
> >
> > What I'm curious about as far as using subdomains are concerned
> > is...will each one use it's own slash and in essence be segregated
> > unto itself or would it be possible to have a mezzanine effect,
> > whereas the user chooses their flag, which maps to their language's
> > particular subdomain, but the stories for each slash are from one main
> > slash which each slash would view? Is such a thing possible or doable?
> >
> > I’m also wondering whether those sites which are using slash for other
> > languages have translated the code themselves into their native
> > languages and if so whether they’ve donated their translations for
> > their own slash site to the slashcode community. If not, one of the
> > things I’d like to spearhead is an initiative to get all of the inner
> > workings of the code translated into other languages and then donate
> > them to the slashcode development community so that when someone in
> > another language wishes to start using slashcode on their site, they
> > already have it translated and ready to go. Having slash sites
> > translated so that a virgin site would be all ready to go straight out
> > of the box in a number of languages would be a great benefit to the
> > open source community.
> >
> > Should anyone be interested in my personal immediate plans for slash
> > on my site what I’d ideally like to do is this:
> >
> > Currently I am the only author on my slash site and I have been
> > posting some stories to get the hang of using slash. Ala Slashdot, any
> > user can feel free to submit a story or url and add their own
> > comments. But this is where I want to open Babel up to the world. I
> > don’t want to be the only author, I want others to help me.
> >
> > Ideally I'd like to have not only Babel fans and contributors but also
> > some of the Babel translators join me as authors on the current
> > boilerplate English slash site so they can get a feel for how
> > slashcode works for a while until they get the hang of it and then
> > once the other versions of the slash site are up in the other 8
> > languages (8 other languages only initially. Hopefully soon we’ll have
> > all 75 languages up), encouraging the translators to be in charge of
> > their particular native language's version of the Babel slash. With
> > the eventual goal being to have the inner workings of each language’s
> > slash site translated so they can in essence be free to deal with the
> > code on an administrative level in their own native language.
> >
> > What this means is that it would be great if, say, on the Spanish
> > Babel slash site there were a handful of authors who were Spanish
> > translators, and hopefully not from the same country. It would be
> > ideal if there was one author from Argentina, one from Mexico, one
> > from Spain etc. so you could all post stories or even find some
> > yourself about issues particular to your specific country or your
> > specific artistic passion.
> >
> > What I’m basically trying to do is take i18n and l10n and tie them
> > together in a meaningful and constructive way. So in essence there
> > would ideally be three language settings for slash:
> >
> > 1. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in
> > their own localized language which will then be able to be posted in
> > only their own localized language and users will be able to post
> > comments in that localized language. (For example, Spanish speakers in
> > Peru would have a slash dealing with their own localized version of
> > Spanish at “es_PE.towerofbabel.com”.) This is currently how slashcode
> > is configured, to operate as a localized code. I’ll call this a single
> > slash.
> >
> > 2. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in
> > their own particular localized language which would then be posted on
> > their own particular internationalized language version of the code.
> > (This would be unnecessary for many languages such as Welsh or
> > Finnish.) For example, posters from Spain, Mexico and Argentina all
> > being able to post their stories to a main Spanish Babel slash at
> > “es.towerofbabel.com”. This would be an internationalized slashcode if
> > it were to be confingured. I’ll call this a double slash.
> >
> > 3. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in any
> > language which will then be able to be posted in any language and any
> > user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the same
> > page of code. This would be a multilingualized slashcode if it were to
> > be configured. I’ll call this an omni slash.
> >
> > Please let me know whatever comments, suggestions or ideas you may
> > have.
> >
> >
> > Malcolm Lawrence
> > Editor-in-Chief
> > Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> > online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> > http://www.towerofbabel.com
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Babel: Just when you thought you were at critical mass.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> --
> One gadget to catch them all, and in digital darkness bind them.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
> digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
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> _______________________________________________
> Slashcode-development mailing list
> Slashcode-development@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
>
>

"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to indicate
language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware of
all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can be
implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have to
do. They're pretty, too.
"I might be willing to have my arm twisted to do a
internationalization/localization readiness report on slashcode. I haven't
looked at the code for a while, but I am looking for a open source project
where I can do that with supportive developers, and then possibly organize
an effort to get it done."
That would be great, Barry. Thanks very much.
"Btw, you missed Method C, which is the right one, which is to make all
internal processing happen in Unicode. Esp. now that Perl 5.8 handles it so
much better then before. At the very least, the data storage needs to be in
Unicode. then you don't need to mess with storing 600 different encodings
and variations in the database. The DB would not even need to know what
language a entry is in, nor should slash itself care."
So slash isn't currently working with Unicode? Would it be very difficult to
get that to happen?
"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and display
properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers, that is
possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying multiple
languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a site
called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be able to
deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment posted.
Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all internal
processing in Unicode?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel suggests: Humanize something free of error
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
<slashcode-development@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> As a 10 year+ veteran of internationalization and localization engineering
and management, I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device
to indicate language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea. Flags are
not concomitant with language, time zone, culture, or anything else except a
country (and even then they tend to change). Not only that, but countries
are not concomitant with any locale items either, and quite often the
population of a country is divided over whether a flag represents them or
disenfranchises them.
>
> The best ui element to represent language is text in the actual language.
If you can't expect your user's browsers to be able to display that in plain
text for all the languages you have in mind, (which is usually the case),
then the best solution is a small bitmap that displays it.
>
> There I just saved you the 1500 dollars it usually costs to attend a
course or conference where these things are discussed :)
>
> I might be willing to have my arm twisted to do a
internationalization/localization readiness report on slashcode. I haven't
looked at the code for a while, but I am looking for a open source project
where I can do that with supportive developers, and then possibly organize
an effort to get it done.
>
> Btw, you missed Method C, which is the right one, which is to make all
internal processing happen in Unicode. Esp. now that Perl 5.8 handles it so
much better then before. At the very least, the data storage needs to be in
Unicode. then you don't need to mess with storing 600 different encodings
and variations in the database. The DB would not even need to know what
language a entry is in, nor should slash itself care.
>
> In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and display
properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers, that is
possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying multiple
languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a site
called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)
>
>
> Best,
>
> Barry Caplan
>
> At 05:16 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>
> >"I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for different
> >languages."
> >
> >Well, as far as where slash stands right now from a multilingual
perspective
> >it would be a quick and easy workaround. Basically, when the user clicks
on
> >the language flag, they'd silently set a "language pref". So that their
> >language choice sticks with them as they navigate...at least until they
hit
> >another flag which will silently
> >reset their pref....etc etc
> >
> >Of course, ideally a language pref would be a part of the user's Log in
box.
> >Would that be very easy to do?
> >
> >As far as my three different methods for dealing with both localization
and
> >internationalization issues are concerned:
> >
> >for Method A:
> >
> >"The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually
> >creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each."
> >
> >Well, yes, exactly. From a hypothetical perspective it would/will be
> >interesting to see which is more popular: the slash where all languages
can
> >join in or the ghettoized slashes where each language sticks with its
own.
> >I'm assuming the latter. Still, the only website I've found which is
> >currently doing what I want slash to be able to do is this one:
> >http://blogalization.org/community/weblog.php . So I'm wondering what the
> >isolated issues are which prevent slash from being like
blogalization.org.
> >
> >for Method B:
> >
> >"The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will
> >be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be
> >the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single
> >discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages
> >than the language for the story that's being read at that particular
> >time."
> >
> >Well the whole point of trying to do what I'm doing (or what I'm trying
to
> >make slash do) is to make anyone be able to post or comment on a story in
> >whichever character set they choose to.
> >
> >I'm not so sure I'm completely sold on Method B, to tell you the truth.
The
> >idea simply came to me when I realized that localization and
> >internationalization are two completely different beasts which don't
really
> >need to be.
> >
> >My goal is to have any and all character sets, both Romanized and
> >non-Romanized, be recognized and accommodated by slash in all corners of
the
> >code, only tertiarily am I interested in ghettoizing slash locally by
> >language, but the way I figure it, as long as these issues are on the
table
> >might as well try and stretch slash as far as it can to see if we can
push
> >the code into a whole other realm than it's been used to.
> >
> >"PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or
> >http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows
> >them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here."
> >
> >Try again. Must have been sunspots. :-)
> >
> >
> >Malcolm Lawrence
> >Editor-in-Chief
> >Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> >online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> >http://www.towerofbabel.com
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >Babel reminds you: Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Shane" <shane@...>
> >To: <slashcode-development@...>
> >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:08 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> >
> >
> >> Wow, interesting dilemas here!!
> >>
> >> I don't know that I agree with having different subdomains for
> >> different languages.
> >>
> >> Method A:
> >>
> >> On one hand, this is a fantastic way to do it it - you could take one
> >> story, submitted in english, have it translated, then post it in any
> >> relavent section that a translation has been done.
> >> That way each discussion (and it's comments) are in *each section's
> >> language*.
> >>
> >> The problem that I have with that: for one story, you are actually
> >> creating 1..n stories (sid's) and a unique discussion for each.
> >>
> >> Method B:
> >>
> >> It would seem that since the templates have a 'lang' field (defaults to
> >> 'en_US') it would be more appropriate if
> >> the table story_text's schema were modified to have such a field.
> >>
> >> Then when a site did the dispStory template et all and did the query to
> >> get a story, that query would use $users->{lang} to determine which set
> >> of information to pull out of story_info. (yes, this is oversimplified,
> >> but you get the idea).
> >>
> >> The problem with method B, as I see it, is that different people will
> >> be reading that same story in different languages. That's fine (it'd be
> >> the whole point of mod B). But that story will be related to one single
> >> discussion. So you can/will have comments posted in different languages
> >> than the language for the story that's being read at that particular
> >> time.
> >>
> >>
> >> There's another thought - with the section-topic changes, I don't see a
> >> 'lang' field in the skins schema.
> >> I don't know whether that's good or bad, for your situation.
> >>
> >> Interesting discussion, nonetheless. Great to see such issues brought
> >> up about the code on the devel-list.
> >>
> >> Shane
> >>
> >> PS - the links you included http://towerofbabel.com/ or
> >> http://www.towerofbabel.com/ , for me atleast, didn't work. DNS shows
> >> them fine, but it looks like apache's down on the machine from here.
> >>
> >> On Jun 30, 2004, at 7:40 PM, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> >>
> >> > Greetings all,
> >> >
> >> > My name is Malcolm Lawrence and I'm the guiding force behind the
> >> > construction of Babel: The multilingual, multicultural online journal
> >> > and community of arts and ideas which has recently incorporated
> >> > slashcode on our site on our Map page.
> >> >
> >> > If you're unfamiliar with Babel, we have over 300 translators in 75
> >> > languages offering their services to help translate the site. We are
a
> >> > non-profit organization, the translators are voluntary and work on
the
> >> > site because they enjoy it (kind of like Linux). Those translators
who
> >> > work on the site get their resume featured on the site. It's not
> >> > exactly an open source project because I do ask that potential
> >> > translators submit their resume or CV before being allowed to begin
> >> > translating the site so I can see their education, skills, experience
> >> > and knowledge base with translating in order to ensure that Babel's
> >> > standards of excellence are maintained.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, as far as the goal I'm trying to reach with Babel is
> >> > concerned, ideally one day any user will be able to submit any story
> >> > in any language which will then be able to be posted in any language
> >> > and any user will be able to post comments in any language, all on
the
> >> > same page of code.
> >> >
> >> > But there are still some multilingual issues with slashcode and
> >> > apparently I'm not the first person who has wanted to solve them. My
> >> > interest in wanting to solve them is primarily based upon fulfilling
> >> > the je nais se quoi of the original idea of the Babel site so I
> >> > thought I'd step in to see if I can regain interest in solving the
> >> > issues in slashcode.
> >> >
> >> > I guess the first thing I'm curious about since I'm unfamlilar with
> >> > i18n issues with slashcode is exactly what are the core problems
> >> > needing to be solved in the code for multilingual issues and how
> >> > difficult are they to solve?
> >> >
> >> > With the code as it is on my site right now slash has its variable
set
> >> > for US English since at the present time there is no way for an
author
> >> > to post a story, nor for a user to post a comment, in whichever
> >> > language they wish. However, Cliff Wood, the senior administrator for
> >> > my new ISP as well as one of the slashcode developers, and I are
> >> > currently working on a solution which will enable other languages to
> >> > use the slashcode part of Babel, although not simultaneously.
> >> >
> >> > What this means is that we're going to have subdomains under
> >> > towerofbabel.com for 8 other languages (to start off with) to have
> >> > their own particular version of Babel's slash code. The other
> >> > languages we'll start with will be Spanish, French, German, Italian,
> >> > Dutch, Estonian, Japanese and Russian. I've chosen these languages
> >> > initially because with the exception of French they are all languages
> >> > which are currently using slashcode successfully. (To see them all go
> >> > here. What I plan to do is have each language's slashcode page linked
> >> > to their respective flag off the homepage and designate the
particular
> >> > language's subdomain using these l10n codes into the url. For
example,
> >> > ja_jp.towerofbabel.com for Japanese, eo.towerofbabel.com for
> >> > Esperanto, etc.
> >> >
> >> > As far as my goal for Babel is concerned, that will obviously be the
> >> > day when we won't necessarily need other language-specific versions
of
> >> > Babel, as all languages will be compatible in the same page of code,
> >> > but as you'll see from my idea below, perhaps other language-specific
> >> > versions of Babel would be an entirely separate idea which is worthy
> >> > in its own right.
> >> >
> >> > What I'm curious about as far as using subdomains are concerned
> >> > is...will each one use it's own slash and in essence be segregated
> >> > unto itself or would it be possible to have a mezzanine effect,
> >> > whereas the user chooses their flag, which maps to their language's
> >> > particular subdomain, but the stories for each slash are from one
main
> >> > slash which each slash would view? Is such a thing possible or
doable?
> >> >
> >> > I'm also wondering whether those sites which are using slash for
other
> >> > languages have translated the code themselves into their native
> >> > languages and if so whether they've donated their translations for
> >> > their own slash site to the slashcode community. If not, one of the
> >> > things I'd like to spearhead is an initiative to get all of the inner
> >> > workings of the code translated into other languages and then donate
> >> > them to the slashcode development community so that when someone in
> >> > another language wishes to start using slashcode on their site, they
> >> > already have it translated and ready to go. Having slash sites
> >> > translated so that a virgin site would be all ready to go straight
out
> >> > of the box in a number of languages would be a great benefit to the
> >> > open source community.
> >> >
> >> > Should anyone be interested in my personal immediate plans for slash
> >> > on my site what I'd ideally like to do is this:
> >> >
> >> > Currently I am the only author on my slash site and I have been
> >> > posting some stories to get the hang of using slash. Ala Slashdot,
any
> >> > user can feel free to submit a story or url and add their own
> >> > comments. But this is where I want to open Babel up to the world. I
> >> > don't want to be the only author, I want others to help me.
> >> >
> >> > Ideally I'd like to have not only Babel fans and contributors but
also
> >> > some of the Babel translators join me as authors on the current
> >> > boilerplate English slash site so they can get a feel for how
> >> > slashcode works for a while until they get the hang of it and then
> >> > once the other versions of the slash site are up in the other 8
> >> > languages (8 other languages only initially. Hopefully soon we'll
have
> >> > all 75 languages up), encouraging the translators to be in charge of
> >> > their particular native language's version of the Babel slash. With
> >> > the eventual goal being to have the inner workings of each language's
> >> > slash site translated so they can in essence be free to deal with the
> >> > code on an administrative level in their own native language.
> >> >
> >> > What this means is that it would be great if, say, on the Spanish
> >> > Babel slash site there were a handful of authors who were Spanish
> >> > translators, and hopefully not from the same country. It would be
> >> > ideal if there was one author from Argentina, one from Mexico, one
> >> > from Spain etc. so you could all post stories or even find some
> >> > yourself about issues particular to your specific country or your
> >> > specific artistic passion.
> >> >
> >> > What I'm basically trying to do is take i18n and l10n and tie them
> >> > together in a meaningful and constructive way. So in essence there
> >> > would ideally be three language settings for slash:
> >> >
> >> > 1. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in
> >> > their own localized language which will then be able to be posted in
> >> > only their own localized language and users will be able to post
> >> > comments in that localized language. (For example, Spanish speakers
in
> >> > Peru would have a slash dealing with their own localized version of
> >> > Spanish at "es_PE.towerofbabel.com".) This is currently how slashcode
> >> > is configured, to operate as a localized code. I'll call this a
single
> >> > slash.
> >> >
> >> > 2. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in
> >> > their own particular localized language which would then be posted on
> >> > their own particular internationalized language version of the code.
> >> > (This would be unnecessary for many languages such as Welsh or
> >> > Finnish.) For example, posters from Spain, Mexico and Argentina all
> >> > being able to post their stories to a main Spanish Babel slash at
> >> > "es.towerofbabel.com". This would be an internationalized slashcode
if
> >> > it were to be confingured. I'll call this a double slash.
> >> >
> >> > 3. One setting where any user will be able to submit any story in any
> >> > language which will then be able to be posted in any language and any
> >> > user will be able to post comments in any language, all on the same
> >> > page of code. This would be a multilingualized slashcode if it were
to
> >> > be configured. I'll call this an omni slash.
> >> >
> >> > Please let me know whatever comments, suggestions or ideas you may
> >> > have.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Malcolm Lawrence
> >> > Editor-in-Chief
> >> > Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> >> > online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> >> > http://www.towerofbabel.com
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Babel: Just when you thought you were at critical mass.
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> --
> >> One gadget to catch them all, and in digital darkness bind them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------
> >> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> >> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
> >> digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
> >> unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Slashcode-development mailing list
> >> Slashcode-development@...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> >Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
> >digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
> >unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >Slashcode-development mailing list
> >Slashcode-development@...
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
>
>

"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
<slashcode-development@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>
> >"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to indicate
> >language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
> >
> >True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware of
> >all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can
be
> >implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have to
> >do. They're pretty, too.
>
>
> Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point.
>
> There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth
that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale.
>
> I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in google
for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. )
>
> The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general category of
"They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being described" and
"users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually rightfully so".
>
> Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union
Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or is it
something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What about
people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? Australia's
first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to
indicate English localization?
>
> Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak
English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I will go with
the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US locale
based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish,
Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to use
again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken many
places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is
universal.
>
> And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language is
used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the Taiwan
flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2
countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without offending.
>
> Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English and
French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of the material
behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious about
political issues you don't mean to say!
>
> The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale is,
quite frankly, because there are none to be had.
>
> It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard earned
experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of people and
a lot of time.
>
> If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever that
means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works
wonders for that :)
>
> For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com indicates
locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled with whatever
UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go.
>
> As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been well
over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to do is a
matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management issues
to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far more
complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it hasn't
been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination of
all three factors.
>
> AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to scale.
For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide user
base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be
volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort level
and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent
fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to be
coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise it is
just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines so
they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined point
more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table.
>
> >"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and display
> >properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers, that
is
> >possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
> >encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
> >Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying
multiple
> >languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a
site
> >called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
> >
> >Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be able
to
> >deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment
posted.
> >Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all
internal
> >processing in Unicode?
>
> Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data.
>
> If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is now
(ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to it as far as the
database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages, even
within a template if so desired.
>
> In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless you
wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. And if
someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so
neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every
codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums up
the reason why that is the case :)
>
> Best,
>
> Barry
>
>

On Jul 1, 2004, at 10:17 PM, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> "Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to
> deal
> with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
> to/from
> Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to
> support
> Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then
> that is
> all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
> could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
>
> Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
Question #1: Unicode
Admittedly, I know next to nothing about i18n and unicode, so forgive
me...
I'm looking at the src to http://blogalization.org/community/weblog.php
The "oddish" characters are "<D9><82><D9><88><D9>" and the encoding is
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Now, comparing that to http://slashcode.com/index.shtml or even
http://slashdot.org/index.shtml doesn't get you too far, because
neither has any of that metadata.
So, my question is, what happens if you stick
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
in the standard header-html template?
Does that "make" it unicode compliant?
If I write a story up, and in the story bodytext, how would I define
the same paragraph
for different languages in unicode?
Or, would you do it once in english, and then somehow via unicode do it
again in XX language?
Then when slashd renders the story, it write the entire thing out, but
the browser, seeing the
UTF-8 in the header, only renders part of it (similar to
<style>
.english { display: none; }
</style>
<html>
<div id="story">
<div id="storytext">
<p class="english">blah blah blah</p>
<p class="french">blahsky blahsky blahsky</p>
</div></div>
Yes, syntax isn't correct, but you get the idea - the browser
automatically knows what to display and what not to display?
Question #2: Opnames
What about form op names? I don't recall where someone brought this up,
but it's definitely a problem with slash, because sometimes the op
values are directly tied to the submit buttons, whereas it's better if
the text of the submit buttons is tied to a getdata call so the
textname of the button can be pulled from a data template, which, there
could be multiple versions of it.
Someone may have even submitted a patch for this - if they did, I don't
think it was used.
(fyi, I started to code all my plugins this way)
Question #3: Templates and languages
Part 1: Naming conventions
Templates, whether they are in a theme, or in a plugin, are always
stored as
name\;page\;section
How would one include alternative language templates in either a theme,
or a language, so that when install-plugin is run, all those templates,
regardless of the LANG variable in the template, would be installed
automatically?
Part 2: Unicode
I cannot see anyone in the future using one template stuffed with a ton
of unicode text in it. You'd have to verify that Template::Toolkit
handled unicode, for one thing.
But for another, management of the templates, by the OSDN coders, that
would seem to be a nightmare. They'd have unicode code in the standard
templates for which, I'd assume, most of their staff could _not_ read.
A better solution would seem to be to move as *much text as possible*
out of the standard templates and put it into data templates. So most
templates just handle code. Anything that is called to be displayed to
the user (that isn't text pulled from the db) would be pulled from a
data template, which could have lang=fr or lang=gb which would match
what the user has defined and it'd show.
Question #4: Constants
mysql> select name from vars where name like "%char%";
+---------------------------+
| name |
+---------------------------+
| charrefs_bad_entity |
| charrefs_bad_numeric |
| comment_nonstartwordchars |
| draconian_charrefs |
| draconian_charset |
| draconian_charset_convert |
| nick_chars |
+---------------------------+
7 rows in set (0.00 sec)
I think that only slightly begins on the variables that you would need
to analyze to see if you would need to change them to handle unicode.
Shane
PS - some i18n discussions on slashcode:
http://www.slashcode.com/search.pl?
query=i18n&op=stories&author=&tid=&section=
PSS - Don't forget to peruse the i18n list's archives:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=7482

"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
So who wants to help thread Slash with Unicode? How difficult would it be
and how long would it take?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: It is not unpatriotic to exercise your rights and it is
un-American to suggest otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>
To: <slashcode-development@...>; "Barry Caplan"
<bcaplan@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
> "Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
> with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
to/from
> Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to
support
> Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
> all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
> could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
>
> Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
>
>
> Malcolm Lawrence
> Editor-in-Chief
> Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> http://www.towerofbabel.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
> To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
> <slashcode-development@...>
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
>
>
> > At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> >
> > >"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to
indicate
> > >language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
> > >
> > >True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware
of
> > >all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can
> be
> > >implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have
to
> > >do. They're pretty, too.
> >
> >
> > Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point.
> >
> > There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth
> that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale.
> >
> > I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in google
> for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. )
> >
> > The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general category
of
> "They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being described"
and
> "users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually rightfully
so".
> >
> > Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union
> Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or is it
> something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What
about
> people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? Australia's
> first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to
> indicate English localization?
> >
> > Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak
> English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I will go
with
> the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US locale
> based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish,
> Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to use
> again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken many
> places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is
> universal.
> >
> > And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language is
> used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the Taiwan
> flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2
> countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without offending.
> >
> > Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English and
> French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of the
material
> behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious about
> political issues you don't mean to say!
> >
> > The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale is,
> quite frankly, because there are none to be had.
> >
> > It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard earned
> experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of people
and
> a lot of time.
> >
> > If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever
that
> means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works
> wonders for that :)
> >
> > For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com indicates
> locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled with
whatever
> UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go.
> >
> > As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been well
> over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to do is a
> matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management issues
> to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far
more
> complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it hasn't
> been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination of
> all three factors.
> >
> > AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to
scale.
> For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide user
> base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be
> volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort
level
> and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent
> fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to be
> coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise it
is
> just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines so
> they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined
point
> more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table.
> >
> > >"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and
display
> > >properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers,
that
> is
> > >possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
> > >encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
> > >Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying
> multiple
> > >languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a
> site
> > >called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
> > >
> > >Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be
able
> to
> > >deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment
> posted.
> > >Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all
> internal
> > >processing in Unicode?
> >
> > Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
> with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
to/from
> Unicode for both inbound and outbound data.
> >
> > If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is now
> (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to it as far as the
> database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages,
even
> within a template if so desired.
> >
> > In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless you
> wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. And if
> someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so
> neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every
> codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums
up
> the reason why that is the case :)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
> digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
> unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
> _______________________________________________
> Slashcode-development mailing list
> Slashcode-development@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
>

I was on vacation right after I wrote that but am back now. I am
interested. I think it would be a fine addition for slash. Other CMS's I
have looked at (only a small subset of what is out there, but still) do
support Unicode. After all, XML is by definition to be in Unicode.
How difficult this would be is hard to say without doing a code
analysis, talking with the developers to understand plans for the
future, and so forth. I'd be interested to hear from the developers if
this is the sort of big bang feature that they can see being part of
Slash going forward.
Best,
Barry
Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
>with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions to/from
>Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to support
>Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
>all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
>could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
>
>So who wants to help thread Slash with Unicode? How difficult would it be
>and how long would it take?
>
>
>Malcolm Lawrence
>Editor-in-Chief
>Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
>online journal and community of arts and ideas.
>http://www.towerofbabel.com
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Babel knows: It is not unpatriotic to exercise your rights and it is
>un-American to suggest otherwise.
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>
>To: <slashcode-development@...>; "Barry Caplan"
><bcaplan@...>
>Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:17 PM
>Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
>
>
>
>
>>"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
>>with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
>>
>>
>to/from
>
>
>>Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to
>>
>>
>support
>
>
>>Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
>>all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
>>could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
>>
>>Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
>>
>>
>>Malcolm Lawrence
>>Editor-in-Chief
>>Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
>>online journal and community of arts and ideas.
>>http://www.towerofbabel.com
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites.
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
>>To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
>><slashcode-development@...>
>>Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to
>>>>
>>>>
>indicate
>
>
>>>>language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
>>>>
>>>>True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware
>>>>
>>>>
>of
>
>
>>>>all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can
>>>>
>>>>
>>be
>>
>>
>>>>implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have
>>>>
>>>>
>to
>
>
>>>>do. They're pretty, too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point.
>>>
>>>There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth
>>>
>>>
>>that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale.
>>
>>
>>>I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in google
>>>
>>>
>>for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. )
>>
>>
>>>The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general category
>>>
>>>
>of
>
>
>>"They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being described"
>>
>>
>and
>
>
>>"users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually rightfully
>>
>>
>so".
>
>
>>>Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union
>>>
>>>
>>Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or is it
>>something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What
>>
>>
>about
>
>
>>people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? Australia's
>>first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to
>>indicate English localization?
>>
>>
>>>Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak
>>>
>>>
>>English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I will go
>>
>>
>with
>
>
>>the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US locale
>>based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish,
>>Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to use
>>again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken many
>>places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is
>>universal.
>>
>>
>>>And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language is
>>>
>>>
>>used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the Taiwan
>>flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2
>>countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without offending.
>>
>>
>>>Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English and
>>>
>>>
>>French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of the
>>
>>
>material
>
>
>>behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious about
>>political issues you don't mean to say!
>>
>>
>>>The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale is,
>>>
>>>
>>quite frankly, because there are none to be had.
>>
>>
>>>It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard earned
>>>
>>>
>>experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of people
>>
>>
>and
>
>
>>a lot of time.
>>
>>
>>>If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works
>>wonders for that :)
>>
>>
>>>For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com indicates
>>>
>>>
>>locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled with
>>
>>
>whatever
>
>
>>UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go.
>>
>>
>>>As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been well
>>>
>>>
>>over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to do is a
>>matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management issues
>>to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far
>>
>>
>more
>
>
>>complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it hasn't
>>been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination of
>>all three factors.
>>
>>
>>>AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to
>>>
>>>
>scale.
>
>
>>For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide user
>>base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be
>>volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort
>>
>>
>level
>
>
>>and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent
>>fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to be
>>coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise it
>>
>>
>is
>
>
>>just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines so
>>they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined
>>
>>
>point
>
>
>>more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table.
>>
>>
>>>>"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and
>>>>
>>>>
>display
>
>
>>>>properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers,
>>>>
>>>>
>that
>
>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>>possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
>>>>encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
>>>>Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying
>>>>
>>>>
>>multiple
>>
>>
>>>>languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a
>>>>
>>>>
>>site
>>
>>
>>>>called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
>>>>
>>>>Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be
>>>>
>>>>
>able
>
>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>>deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment
>>>>
>>>>
>>posted.
>>
>>
>>>>Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all
>>>>
>>>>
>>internal
>>
>>
>>>>processing in Unicode?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
>>>
>>>
>>with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
>>
>>
>to/from
>
>
>>Unicode for both inbound and outbound data.
>>
>>
>>>If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is now
>>>
>>>
>>(ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to it as far as the
>>database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages,
>>
>>
>even
>
>
>>within a template if so desired.
>>
>>
>>>In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless you
>>>
>>>
>>wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. And if
>>someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so
>>neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every
>>codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums
>>
>>
>up
>
>
>>the reason why that is the case :)
>>
>>
>>>Best,
>>>
>>>Barry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
>>Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
>>digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
>>unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
>>_______________________________________________
>>Slashcode-development mailing list
>>Slashcode-development@...
>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>This SF.Net email is sponsored by OSTG. Have you noticed the changes on
>Linux.com, ITManagersJournal and NewsForge in the past few weeks? Now,
>one more big change to announce. We are now OSTG- Open Source Technology
>Group. Come see the changes on the new OSTG site. http://www.ostg.com
>_______________________________________________
>Slashcode-development mailing list
>Slashcode-development@...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
>
>
>

So are there any slash developers on this list paying attention to this =
exchange or is everyone on vacation still?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel wonders: Are you addicted to moderation?
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----=20
From: i18n=20
To: Malcolm Lawrence=20
Cc: slashcode-development@...=20
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
I was on vacation right after I wrote that but am back now. I am =
interested. I think it would be a fine addition for slash. Other CMS's I =
have looked at (only a small subset of what is out there, but still) do =
support Unicode. After all, XML is by definition to be in Unicode.
How difficult this would be is hard to say without doing a code =
analysis, talking with the developers to understand plans for the =
future, and so forth. I'd be interested to hear from the developers if =
this is the sort of big bang feature that they can see being part of =
Slash going forward.
Best,
Barry
Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to =
deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions =
to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to =
support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that =
is
all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
So who wants to help thread Slash with Unicode? How difficult would it =
be
and how long would it take?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: It is not unpatriotic to exercise your rights and it is
un-American to suggest otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>
To: <slashcode-development@...>; "Barry Caplan"
<bcaplan@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to =
deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to
support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then =
that is
all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites.
------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Barry Caplan" <bcaplan@...>
To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <malcolm@...>;
<slashcode-development@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to
indicate
language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware
of
all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element =
can
be
implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll =
have
to
do. They're pretty, too.
Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point.
There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth
that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale.
I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in =
google
for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. =
)
The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general =
category
of
"They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being =
described"
and
"users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually =
rightfully
so".
Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union
Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or =
is it
something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What
about
people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? =
Australia's
first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to
indicate English localization?
Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak
English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I =
will go
with
the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US =
locale
based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish,
Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to =
use
again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken =
many
places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is
universal.
And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language =
is
used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the =
Taiwan
flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2
countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without =
offending.
Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English =
and
French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of =
the
material
behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious =
about
political issues you don't mean to say!
The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale =
is,
quite frankly, because there are none to be had.
It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard =
earned
experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of =
people
and
a lot of time.
If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever
that
means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works
wonders for that :)
For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com =
indicates
locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled =
with
whatever
UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go.
As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been =
well
over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to =
do is a
matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management =
issues
to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far
more
complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it =
hasn't
been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination =
of
all three factors.
AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to
scale.
For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide =
user
base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be
volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort
level
and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent
fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to =
be
coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise =
it
is
just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines =
so
they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined
point
more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table.
"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and
display
properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers,
that
is
possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right =
character
encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying
multiple
languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect =
of a
site
called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be
able
to
deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment
posted.
Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all
internal
processing in Unicode?
Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs =
to deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make =
conversions
to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data.
If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is =
now
(ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to it as far as =
the
database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages,
even
within a template if so desired.
In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless =
you
wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. =
And if
someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so
neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every
codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums
up
the reason why that is the case :)
Best,
Barry
=20
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches,
unmatched networking opportunities. Visit http://www.blackhat.com
_______________________________________________
Slashcode-development mailing list
Slashcode-development@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
=20
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email is sponsored by OSTG. Have you noticed the changes on
Linux.com, ITManagersJournal and NewsForge in the past few weeks? Now,
one more big change to announce. We are now OSTG- Open Source Technology
Group. Come see the changes on the new OSTG site. http://www.ostg.com
_______________________________________________
Slashcode-development mailing list
Slashcode-development@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development
=20