What's the churches view on Capitalism vs. Communism?

The subject is my question and let me define the two terms capitalism and communism in what I mean in this ?.Capitalism-No money equality, private property, etc.Communism-Equality for all, no private property.I'm asking this because I really want to know and also because does not the church believe in equality for all...Thank you to whoever can answer this question

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[quote author=Bespetna link=board=12;threadid=3870;start=0#msg54553 date=1147401812]I don't think the church realy points to a type of goverment. But capitalism is they way it would probly go.

No. If any form of economy or social government is not recommended by the Church, and in fact despised, it would be the Capitalism system that sucks the blood out of the poor and the middle class and promotes every non - christian attribute of the society and eliminates every christian virtue.

It is true that the Orthodox Church (and by orthodox I most certainly exclude the Nestorian/Chalcedonian churches) has always stayed away from politics and from governing people, which is a true blessing, but the values promoted by Christ is more consistent with Socialism or Communism. If we look at the Church of the Apostles, they were most certainly socialist in style or maybe even communism (no resemblence to Marxism, for a communist does not have to be a marxist). Everything was shared between them, all of them have different talents that they use towards the benefit of the group without neglecting the individual.

H.G. The Late Bishop Gregorius, the great philosopher and theologian of the Coptic Church in the past century, has explained that a christian can never become a capitalist.

[quote author=mtanious32 link=board=12;threadid=3870;start=0#msg54548 date=1147397917]The subject is my question and let me define the two terms capitalism and communism in what I mean in this ?.Capitalism-No money equality, private property, etc.Communism-Equality for all, no private property.I'm asking this because I really want to know and also because does not the church believe in equality for all...Thank you to whoever can answer this question

In Acts 2:44-5 we read "Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need" (NKJV)

This is pretty much as far away from capitalism as you could possibly get. Especially the American version where everything is about individual gain - even healthcare is private!

So Christianity certainly favours a socialist rather than capitalist system.

Communism is an extreme form of socialism. While the early Church could technically be described as communist, the word "communism" in modern usage refers almost exclusively to Marxism, which is anti-Christian in its atheism, and in its quasi-chiliasm (a heresy teaching that there will be a earthly paradise).

Well we kind of know that communism isnt what it really is that it says to be...for example Soviet Union(Russians) there was no equality for everyone so this is why i dont think communism but if someone has textual evidence that says The Church Believes in this or something that we can infer...

[quote author=mtanious32 link=board=12;threadid=3870;start=0#msg54604 date=1147469026]Well we kind of know that communism isnt what it really is that it says to be...for example Soviet Union(Russians) there was no equality for everyone so this is why i dont think communism but if someone has textual evidence that says The Church Believes in this or something that we can infer...

Like Stavro already pointed out, communism does not have to mean Marxism, which was the system implemented in Russia.

While the early Church could be called communist, it certainly was not Marxist, which is one of the most anti-Christian ideologies there are. Marxism teaches atheism and tries to create paradise on earth (a bit like the heresy of chiliasm), which is impossible without God.It can only be implemented by two ways - anarchy, which simply wouldn't work OR dictatorship, which is what happened in Russia.

The Soviet Communists killed everyone who disagreed with them. Stalin made Hitler look like a pussy cat. 50 000 Russian Orthodox priests and monks were martyred for their faith - the number of martyred laymen probably goes into millions. All in all, around 20million people were slaughtered by Stalin's regieme.

This form of communism is of Satan and the enemy of Christ.

However, the system of redistribution of wealth which can be seen in the Book of Acts can also be viewed as a form of communism - and this type is of God.

When the early Christians placed all they had at the apostles feet in order for it to be evenly distributed, they done so willingly! Would it then be Christian for us to allow people to be forced into doing so?

Also capitalism and communism are not simply defined and capitalism helping the rich and communism helping the poor, it is a lot more complex.

Many argue capitalism is actually helping the poor by creating more jobs, allowing people to engage in whichever trade and business they choose, allowing the growth and advance of society as a whole as well as many other reasons.

So yes Christianity does mean help the poor and equity for all, but 1) this is done willingly 2) This does not mean communism, especially not the way communism is understood as today.

There is no standard for application of any ideology because it is relative, and not a God given command that follows orthodox boundaries based on an orthodox foundation. As such, there are variations in application of every ideology to suit the society which it is intended to serve. As such, the socialism of France is different than that of Brazil, and maybe has no resemblence with the Socialism of Teto in former Jugoslavia.

The same way with Communism. The form adopted in China is actually a great example of a true application of it, turning China from a nation of drug addicts into a superpower and the good times are still to come. It also has presence in Italy, and they came to power many times and they did not effect the status of Italy as a top industrial country or as a catholic nation.

In the US, there is a more middle class oriented capitalism that flourishes when the Democrats come to power, and a good example of such a system were the great Clinton years in which the economy in the US just boomed. Regardless of other mistakes, not related to the economy or the morally irrelevant social standards, the Democrats did not compromise on the health or social benefits of the nation or the education. On the other hand, you have a capitalist system that is promoted by the neo-con that serves the special interests and neglects every other social aspect in the country. This one has resulted in the broken job turnout (Bush, for example, is the only american president to have a negative job turnout, he did not create any and have cost many americans their jobs).

So we better judge the systems by their principles, regardless of the application. Socialism serves the middle class with chances for individual advancement based on merit and talent, without compromising the basic needs of the group and make it a matter of profit. This would be the right to education, health coverage, travel which are the basic human rights. Communsim is, as Orthodox 11 explained, a redistribution of wealth with complete respect to each and everybody's own talents. The communist countries recognize different roles of different people but does not necessarily translate that to a creation of social classes.Capitalism, by nature, does not address the society needs but the individual's ambitions. It is not different than the monarchy system in Europe in the Middle Ages and early industrial revolution, where the landlord or business owner works his people to death to gain more profit from them. It is the same way now, but packaged in big talk and empty slogans. There is simply no obligation towards the society.

It is clear where christianity would love its followers to stand. If helping the poor is put in the same level as prayer in its significance in reflecting a true christian life, and charity is admired and compassion is encouraged, how could a christian vote for capitalism in its extreme form in a good conscience ?

The free will is always respected by the believers, that is why we have elections and that is also why the non christian world will obviously always make the wrong choices. Nobody is talking about forcing anybody to do anything, but I do not believe I find any reference in any true christian book that advocates sucking the blood of the poor and middle class like Capitalism does. However, the tithe is a biblical command, a form of socialism that is intended to redistribute the wealth not in search of a earthly life, but to satisfy the needs of the poor.

What about the words true communion between members of the Church to be applied?

A word of caution: I recently read the "son of perdition" (the antichrist) will start his cheating and deceipts by calling people of the world to apply social big reforms in the communism style with false "justice" and by applying equal wealth distribution for his followers.(is it off topic? sorry)

The good news is there exists in fact true communion between members of the Church that is in Our Lord Jesus Christ. Also truly socially and financially because the strongest of links exist and in Church the wealthier usually help the poorer (although it should be improved) and they donate to the Church supporting many important activities. This system is different than the one when the early Church was estasblished. Help to many poor and needy outside the Church as Our Lord Jesus Christ teaches us is daily made too.

The bad news is that "somebody" is trying to take advantage of the actual declining world situation:

HIS (the so-calling himself teacher) SOCIAL AGENDA:

The world is portrayed to be in a hopeless condition and in need for a great social reformer with a new agenda that caters to the needs of the masses:

At this time of great political, economic and social crisis Maitreya will inspire humanity to see itself as one family, and create a civilization based on sharing, economic and social justice, and global cooperation. He will launch a call to action to save the millions of people who starve to death every year in a world of plenty. Among Maitreya's recommendations will be a shift in social priorities so that adequate food, housing, clothing, education, and medical care become universal rights.

Under Maitreya's inspiration, humanity itself will make the required changes and create a saner and more just world for all. He is here to inspire us to create a new era based on sharing and justice, so that all may have the basic necessities of life: food, shelter, health care, and education.

Maitreya's social concerns are reflected in his list of priorities: an adequate supply of the right food, adequate housing for all, healthcare and education as universal rights. His social message can be summarized in a few words: "Share and save the world." Maitreya knows we will accept his message and that we are on the threshold of an era of peace and goodwill.

this was quoted from Coptic Orthodox Spiritual Library "Abomination of Desolation" book by Hegomen Athanasius Iskander, Part 11

I think it is important to remind you that we should avoid looking after the antichrist described above because he is a dangerous character (the son of perdition) and has obviously great evil powers given to him by his supporting master.

[quote author=Stavro link=board=12;threadid=3870;start=0#msg54638 date=1147491056]There is no standard for application of any ideology because it is relative, and not a God given command that follows orthodox boundaries based on an orthodox foundation. As such, there are variations in application of every ideology to suit the society which it is intended to serve. As such, the socialism of France is different than that of Brazil, and maybe has no resemblence with the Socialism of Teto in former Jugoslavia.

The same way with Communism. The form adopted in China is actually a great example of a true application of it, turning China from a nation of drug addicts into a superpower and the good times are still to come. It also has presence in Italy, and they came to power many times and they did not effect the status of Italy as a top industrial country or as a catholic nation.

In the US, there is a more middle class oriented capitalism that flourishes when the Democrats come to power, and a good example of such a system were the great Clinton years in which the economy in the US just boomed. Regardless of other mistakes, not related to the economy or the morally irrelevant social standards, the Democrats did not compromise on the health or social benefits of the nation or the education. On the other hand, you have a capitalist system that is promoted by the neo-con that serves the special interests and neglects every other social aspect in the country. This one has resulted in the broken job turnout (Bush, for example, is the only american president to have a negative job turnout, he did not create any and have cost many americans their jobs).

So we better judge the systems by their principles, regardless of the application. Socialism serves the middle class with chances for individual advancement based on merit and talent, without compromising the basic needs of the group and make it a matter of profit. This would be the right to education, health coverage, travel which are the basic human rights. Communsim is, as Orthodox 11 explained, a redistribution of wealth with complete respect to each and everybody's own talents. The communist countries recognize different roles of different people but does not necessarily translate that to a creation of social classes.Capitalism, by nature, does not address the society needs but the individual's ambitions. It is not different than the monarchy system in Europe in the Middle Ages and early industrial revolution, where the landlord or business owner works his people to death to gain more profit from them. It is the same way now, but packaged in big talk and empty slogans. There is simply no obligation towards the society.

It is clear where christianity would love its followers to stand. If helping the poor is put in the same level as prayer in its significance in reflecting a true christian life, and charity is admired and compassion is encouraged, how could a christian vote for capitalism in its extreme form in a good conscience ?

The free will is always respected by the believers, that is why we have elections and that is also why the non christian world will obviously always make the wrong choices. Nobody is talking about forcing anybody to do anything, but I do not believe I find any reference in any true christian book that advocates sucking the blood of the poor and middle class like Capitalism does. However, the tithe is a biblical command, a form of socialism that is intended to redistribute the wealth not in search of a earthly life, but to satisfy the needs of the poor.

wow, i was just going to say the same thing but in 2 sentences :D ii gree with ya all the way.