BHBalanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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I would want to ask what made sleep clause specifically lifted from hacks in the first place compared to other standard tiers. In those, only very few mons learn sleep so they are very predictable, and the only offensive ones are breloom, smeargle and darkrai in ubers pervious gens. This means countering sleep in those tiers is not much harder than it is in hacks; as long as you give your phys wall goggles or just use gliscor, those two are almost never going to hurt you.

Edit: for example, countering shell smash is easier in hacks bc everything can run prankster, unaware and spec thief, which in standard you cant; countering imposter is easier in hacks bc you can choose what coverage to run on your attacker, which in standard you are limited. countering sleep is however not easier if your primary means of that is goggles; that thing can be run on everything in every tier.

i have noted that hacks now also has an ohko clause; while i guess this definitely has something to do with no guard, there have been precedent complex bans prohibiting the use of certain moves with certain abilities (comaphaze, also hypno gar in ubers). If this didnt exist, would hacks have allowed the use of ohko moves as well?

The reason BH doesn't have sleep clause is basically it started life as just Hackmons, which was intended to be an anything goes meta. Not CH, because it wasn't classic yet. The initial players of Hackmons agreed that Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Huge/Pure Power, Wonder Guard, and OHKO moves were too problematic, so banned those and those only, and technically along with anything not functioning as programmed in game (like Flower Gift Fire-type Arceus) to create Balanced Hackmons. That was the ban list through all of Gen V because the early crowd was extremely anti-ban anything else and nothing changed until Parental Bond got kicked finally in X/Y. Gen V was a very experimental meta where the most optimal strategies weren't discovered towards the end of it, assuming anyone ever found them considering the skill ceiling was a lot lower, and the major meta threats were constantly going through a revolving door and bringing along guest stars too, so there was also very little to stick out as "that's OP."

So basically, we don't have a sleep clause because the founding fathers (and mothers?) of BH didn't think one was necessary. ...at least, I think that's the case, I joined mid-late Gen V. ...which is ironic because it was the gen that needed sleep clause the most.

Great post!
I just want to add, that Lovely Kiss is a commonly seen option to reliably put a mon to sleep without having to worry about safety goggles (which also can get knocked off btw), so that the only counterplay would be an ability like Poison Heal or Comatose.

Quick Feet is only viable for offensive mons to self-improof them, just as you do with unburden - the imposter doesn't get the speed boost, is always outsped and gets OHKOed by a supereffective move - but you don't use sweepers to check opposing sweepers.
Magic Bounce can be ignored by Mold Breaker and clones and Pranksters usually lack moveslots for Taunt or Substitute - also both pranksters and Magic Bouncers can simply be attacked instead of put to sleep, which can be lethal for them.
Terrains are an option, but they're niche and there are much more useful abilities for defensive mons than Electric/Misty Surge for defensive mons. They're also overwritten by Psysurge MMY and you need to re-set them every 8 or 5 turns if you want permanent status protection.

Quick Feet is only viable for offensive mons to self-improof them, just as you do with unburden - the imposter doesn't get the speed boost, is always outsped and gets OHKOed by a supereffective move - but you don't use sweepers to check opposing sweepers.(1)
Magic Bounce can be ignored by Mold Breaker and clones and Pranksters usually lack moveslots for Taunt or Substitute(2) - also both pranksters and Magic Bouncers can simply be attacked instead of put to sleep, which can be lethal for them.(3)
Terrains are an option, but they're niche and there are much more useful abilities for defensive mons than Electric/Misty Surge for defensive mons(4)(5). They're also overwritten(6) by Psysurge MMY and you need to re-set them every 8 or 5 turns if you want permanent status protection.

1) False, MMY offensively checks Gengar.
2) False, Taunt can be used to prevent walls from recovering meaning that other attackers can later finish the job; it's just an unexplored move. Sub means that you won't be OHKOed by anything bar sound moves and is useful for scouting and baton passing. You have to make room for them but they can be potentially worth it.
3) Invalid, since everything can just be attacked and not spored.
4) Electric Surge can offensively used by Electric attackers to push their power where it smashes defense. (Tinted Lens Zekrom starts 2HKOing Tina at no drawback, not even using dragon moves)
5) Misty surge is a valid defensive option since it halves the damage of Dragon moves, for example that means that Giratina loses a weakness to a common attacking type but it is shared to all the team.
6) Electric/Misty Terrain overwrite Psychic Surge too and MMY loses immunity to priority and 33% of power on its STAB. For example MMY is no longer able to 2HKO Giratina with specs Psycho Boost. (most of the times)

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 千尺乇乇 ㄚㄖㄩ尺 爪丨几刀 (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

1) False, MMY offensively checks Gengar.
2) False, Taunt can be used to prevent walls from recovering meaning that other attackers can later finish the job; it's just an unexplored move. Sub means that you won't be OHKOed by anything bar sound moves and is useful for scouting and baton passing. You have to make room for them but they can be potentially worth it.
3) Invalid, since everything can just be attacked and not spored.
4) Electric Surge can offensively used by Electric attackers to push their power where it smashes defense. (Tinted Lens Zekrom starts 2HKOing Tina at no drawback, not even using dragon moves)
5) Misty surge is a valid defensive option since it halves the damage of Dragon moves, for example that means that Giratina loses a weakness to a common attacking type but it is shared to all the team.
6) Electric/Misty Terrain overwrite Psychic Surge too and MMY loses immunity to priority and 33% of power on its STAB. For example MMY is no longer able to 2HKO Giratina with specs Psycho Boost. (most of the times)

1) man if you switch mmy into gengar don't expect to win many games. you can argue that you can "just slow pivot into it" except what if they have normalize? then you need another check. quick feet is an interesting ability tho except mmy still loses to ph regi if it switches into facade or maybe knock off

2) unexplored doesn't mean good

3) on the topic of ph regi it's generally accepted that unless your bouncer is something suboptimal like magearna or giratina then you get 2hkod by facade and lose. magic bounce and ph have no room for other abilities like fur coat.

4) while i agree that electric surge zekrom is good, it falls in the same category as magic bounce in that all the abusers get 2hkod cool

5) haven't used this

6) man if it does more than 50% then what stops your opponent from switching into something like diancie as you click recover then forcing you out and restarting the cycle? what happens when mmy comes in and resets psychic terrain? that's no counter

concerning sleep i think that making a clause is the best idea instead of banning spore because man do you want lovely "literally a 50/50" miss to dominate the meta? me neither

This move can be made use of by any offensive pokemon who only needs to meet any one of the following conditions, regardless of the rest of its set:
-needs fire coverage
-attack is higher than like 100
-max stab move power is lower than 120

. It is the only reason groudon specifically necessitates the opposing team to have a wall to defend against it, taking away the whole option to stay in with a neutral (offensive) pokemon. This sets it apart from every other pokemon in the tier, for which you expect to survive an unboosted neutral hit with almost anything not entirely too frail.
groudon without any boosting item or ability can hit as hard with v-create as other pokemon would need both slots to achieve
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 306-360 (72.1 - 84.9%)
252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 313-369 (73.8 - 87%)
This essentially frees up all its item, ability and coverage move slots, and only here does things such as stake out, tinted lens or -ates start to come in. Without v-create groudon will not be able to ko the majority of neutral targets, thus rendering it meaningless to design specialized coverage for resisted ones only.
The next best fire move barely beats sceptile and gengar, pokemon considered frail under just about everyones impression
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sceptile-Mega: 327-385 (95 - 111.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 313-370 (96.6 - 114.1%)
This means that even scarf groudon will be forced to use a ground move against gengar, or even an ice move if it carries it, against sceptile. if it has been confirmed scarf, anything not weak to them and not frailer than mewtwo y can switch in, unlike v-create which only resists can. Any pokemon faster than groudon itself and bulkier than gengar can stay in, whenever if they can hit it back, knowing guaranteed they will survive one turn.

The only adverse effect of this move is stat drops, but is much less exploitable than those ones that reduce attack itself. In the latter, after the drop you can threaten to revenge kill it or setup on it, with anything that can take a weakened hit; with v-create, the only difference the stat drops make is that pokemon who were slower before can now revenge it; you still cannot set up on it or send out a slower pokemon who cannot take the same hit, or a coverage move if it is not choiced. Moreover, even if v-creates stat drops were to be deemed as crippling as those of the draco moves, it is still a mere 10 points weaker than a whole stabed version of those, while also having 5% more accuracy.

Even with non-stab users, v-create makes it outright impossible for the common non-flash fire steel pokemon to wall anything with a decent attack stat.
252 SpA Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 91-108 (19 - 22.6%)
252 Atk Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 346-408 (72.5 - 85.5%)
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 230-272 (48.2 - 57%)
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 252-298 (52.8 - 62.4%)
Even in rayquaza's case, solgaleo would have able to switch into any -ate move, get off a hit, and then switch out. If v-create is present however, the only other move it can afford to take is fake out. Similarly, mewtwo y only needs a life orb to net the same kill. In this particular regard, it is no less threatening than cfz and stakeout since it will be able to do unreasonable damage to pokemon who it is not supposed to due to type matchups, a core mechanism of the entire game.

It is also the primary means for contrary to boost its speed. It is so strong that even without additional boosts in attack it can ko its intended target most of the time. Without it, they would have to resort to moves with virtually no utility elsewhere, such as ice hammer, to achieve the same.
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%)
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%)

This move can be made use of by any offensive pokemon who only needs to meet any one of the following conditions, regardless of the rest of its set:
-needs fire coverage
-attack is higher than like 100
-max stab move power is lower than 120

. It is the only reason groudon specifically necessitates the opposing team to have a wall to defend against it, taking away the whole option to stay in with a neutral (offensive) pokemon. This sets it apart from every other pokemon in the tier, for which you expect to survive an unboosted neutral hit with almost anything not entirely too frail.
groudon without any boosting item or ability can hit as hard with v-create as other pokemon would need both slots to achieve
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 306-360 (72.1 - 84.9%)
252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 313-369 (73.8 - 87%)
This essentially frees up all its item, ability and coverage move slots, and only here does things such as stake out, tinted lens or -ates start to come in. Without v-create groudon will not be able to ko the majority of neutral targets, thus rendering it meaningless to design specialized coverage for resisted ones only.
The next best fire move barely beats sceptile and gengar, pokemon considered frail under just about everyones impression
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sceptile-Mega: 327-385 (95 - 111.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 313-370 (96.6 - 114.1%)
This means that even scarf groudon will be forced to use a ground move against gengar, or even an ice move if it carries it, against sceptile. if it has been confirmed scarf, anything not weak to them and not frailer than mewtwo y can switch in, unlike v-create which only resists can. Any pokemon faster than groudon itself and bulkier than gengar can stay in, whenever if they can hit it back, knowing guaranteed they will survive one turn.

The only adverse effect of this move is stat drops, but is much less exploitable than those ones that reduce attack itself. In the latter, after the drop you can threaten to revenge kill it or setup on it, with anything that can take a weakened hit; with v-create, the only difference the stat drops make is that pokemon who were slower before can now revenge it; you still cannot set up on it or send out a slower pokemon who cannot take the same hit, or a coverage move if it is not choiced. Moreover, even if v-creates stat drops were to be deemed as crippling as those of the draco moves, it is still a mere 10 points weaker than a whole stabed version of those, while also having 5% more accuracy.

Even with non-stab users, v-create makes it outright impossible for the common non-flash fire steel pokemon to wall anything with a decent attack stat.
252 SpA Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 91-108 (19 - 22.6%)
252 Atk Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 346-408 (72.5 - 85.5%)
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 230-272 (48.2 - 57%)
252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 252-298 (52.8 - 62.4%)
Even in rayquaza's case, solgaleo would have able to switch into any -ate move, get off a hit, and then switch out. If v-create is present however, the only other move it can afford to take is fake out. Similarly, mewtwo y only needs a life orb to net the same kill. In this particular regard, it is no less threatening than cfz and stakeout since it will be able to do unreasonable damage to pokemon who it is not supposed to due to type matchups, a core mechanism of the entire game.

It is also the primary means for contrary to boost its speed. It is so strong that even without additional boosts in attack it can ko its intended target most of the time. Without it, they would have to resort to moves with virtually no utility elsewhere, such as ice hammer, to achieve the same.
252 Atk Sceptile-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%)
252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%)

I'm not entirely sure what brought this on,but it looks to me that it's an attempt to argue that V-Create is the broken aspect of pdon. While it's no argument that V-Create is pdons best asset,I don't think the move itself inherently broken,just really strong.

About the contrary point,dude of course it's good,that's a Strong fire coverage that's boosting three different stats at once. And In a contrary situation,it's the ability making the move even better.
If pdons really stayed in spamming v create after v create,they'd be outspeed and OHKO'd all the time.

So hey after ~25 posts on sleep, let me talk about Pdon again :v And this is a post I promised some people to post a month ago but got super lazy.
I know yeah Sleep is somewhat controversial in gen 7 when you don't slap a PH mon on almost all archetypes of teams as you did in gen 6, due to Core everywhere. And moldy kiss is rising whereas there isn't so many PH to stop moldy dark void as they did. But anyway, I'm unsure about my stance on how to deal with sleep, and I'd like to talk about Pdon again.

There have been quite some people claiming Pdon to be broken, with posts here and there since several months ago; However, there is always that <banning a mon is last resort of BH tiering> kept in mind of many. Now we get rid of Magnet Pull and Stakeout, which Pdon can utilize very successfully; and I think it would be helpful to present a quick set & check here for those who are on the fence, or those opposing banning a mon. So instead of arguing directly, I'll just do the following <checks and lures> for the most common & effective Pdon sets in my biased opinion:

First I'm posting a list of common <Defensive> Pdon preps. (i.e. not including any offensive mon that is faster and force it out etc., like Boomburst Ate Mray or SF LO Ep MMY) The following mons are your commonly considered switch-in options to opposing set-yet-to-know Pdon when it comes into the field (perhaps with a double, or by slow pivoting) and happen to face your steel walls, or other important walls that cannot live a V-create.

FC Chansey probably isn't what you will switch in, but if you are sure it is a special set, then go ahead switch it in, probably. Other checks to certain set up Pdon sets, like Unaware Gyarados or other variations of Tina / Zyg are not included, like Prank Haze Zyg / PH Tina etc.

These sets may have quite some slashes on the moves and items and are filled with my biased / personal choice of EVs but you can get the big picture anyway. In the next part, I will refer to them as the nick names, i.e. FC Zyg, Regen Zyg, FC Pert, FC Bro, FC Porge, FCeus, PSea Cele, FC Chansey, FC Tina, Regen Tina and Prank Tina. You can definitely switch your imposter to it for scouting, but you don't like eating band ground STAB, nor do you want to eat +2 Earth Plate judgment or +6 Bonemerang in the end.

Now I'd like to go over the known and common 12 offensive Pdon sets (i.e. no Regenvest / FC support dons included) and see what they do to their intended switch-ins listed above. These 12 picks are also prone to my personal/biased usage of pdon :v
Other sets like Speed Boost Tail glow Earth Judgment that punishes slow u-turn to imposter, or sick Water Absorb Smash ones, or even Soundproof, are surely okay but not as common ig.

This is where the first screaming of broken comes from. The power of dealing 70.6 - 83.3% to +Def non-FC Giratina, and 55.6 - 65.7% to non-FC Zygarde just leaves you the impression of broken. Note that in the check sets above, the FC Dragons are EVed to outspeed Pdon at -1 so it can heal it up after switching into a V-create.

Can switch in:
FC Zyg, FC Bro, FC Porge, FCeus, FC Tina, FC Pert (both Porge and Pert dying to two Band V-create even it is a +Def nature under FC, so be sure to EVed it at least 205 speed)Cannot safely switch in:
PSea Cele (dies to two hit from Band Tarrows), FC Chansey, Regen Tina, Prank Tina

Somehow got a very high usage on the ladder, while using non-plate Chansey as a setup fodder. Espeed is quite common, but Sunsteel Strike is also an option to break through FC Chansey and Unaware Audino, which otherwise walls it.

(224 Def to guaranteed Bone OHKO imposter eviolite Chansey from full. You can rely on SR if you want 252 Def Evs) A very dreadful sweeper, usually you need Prankster Hazed/Dbond, or simply don't allow it to set up, or spectral it on the turn of setting-up / core it on the turn of setting-up and win speed tie with your imposter etc.

The set is hard to improof though, you are likely to use unaware neutral mons with topsy-turvy. You can use Zing Zap over Bolt Strike so you can use a Spectral Thief Baton pass FC Chansey to safely improof it, and pressure opposing imposter in the cycle. Bolt is needed to land key OHKOs at +2 on FC Porge though.

If you are unsure of whether banning Pdon is the good option to go, if you are on the fence, if you are considering banning a mon from BH just hard to agree upon, I suggest you try some of these sets yourself and maybe you will form your own stand on this. Hopefully I didn't make too bad mistakes in these sets, and thanks for the reading of such a long-ass post lol.

As you can see, the only thing that covered over half of the Pdon sets is FC Arceus while it is due to my counting method, since it is faster and can OHKO back with steam eruption, and living a lot more neutral hits at full; it is not really tanking band hits that well. The rest of these intended checks doesn't even succeed at switch into half of Pdon's variants and live the next turn.

Edit 2: Regarding people who are wondering if I am remaining neutral / not making a point on purpose.

Well sort of, since luring is superbly common on top-notch attackers and scouting a set is always necessary for BH, you might say this is not broken enough when your imposter can take a hit at least and do what is needed to do later on. But if you ask me, I am definitely leaning towards banning(just look at how hard it is to check SF LO Pdon, you are gonna have something dead in the meantime of scouting if you are expecting Choice attackers and vice versa... Such sets are not even a lure set in the common sense since it is a "main" set itself, not even making the set less good or anything) but I didn't state it out before this edit on purpose. Since what I intended was to ask people to try to play with and play against pdon themselves, not restricting to the top 3 most used sets (Tinted band, galv, Contrary), but with more lure (just other main actually) sets as well.

So hey after ~25 posts on sleep, let me talk about Pdon again :v And this is a post I promised some people to post a month ago but got super lazy.
I know yeah Sleep is somewhat controversial in gen 7 when you don't slap a PH mon on almost all archetypes of teams as you did in gen 6, due to Core everywhere. And moldy kiss is rising whereas there isn't so many PH to stop moldy dark void as they did. But anyway, I'm unsure about my stance on how to deal with sleep, and I'd like to talk about Pdon again.

There have been quite some people claiming Pdon to be broken, with posts here and there since several months ago; However, there is always that <banning a mon is last resort of BH tiering> kept in mind of many. Now we get rid of Magnet Pull and Stakeout, which Pdon can utilize very successfully; and I think it would be helpful to present a quick set & check here for those who are on the fence, or those opposing banning a mon. So instead of arguing directly, I'll just do the following <checks and lures> for the most common & effective Pdon sets in my biased opinion:

First I'm posting a list of common <Defensive> Pdon preps. (i.e. not including any offensive mon that is faster and force it out etc., like Boomburst Ate Mray or SF LO Ep MMY) The following mons are your commonly considered switch-in options to opposing set-yet-to-know Pdon when it comes into the field (perhaps with a double, or by slow pivoting) and happen to face your steel walls, or other important walls that cannot live a V-create.

FC Chansey probably isn't what you will switch in, but if you are sure it is a special set, then go ahead switch it in, probably. Other checks to certain set up Pdon sets, like Unaware Gyarados or other variations of Tina / Zyg are not included, like Prank Haze Zyg / PH Tina etc.

These sets may have quite some slashes on the moves and items and are filled with my biased / personal choice of EVs but you can get the big picture anyway. In the next part, I will refer to them as the nick names, i.e. FC Zyg, Regen Zyg, FC Pert, FC Bro, FC Porge, FCeus, PSea Cele, FC Chansey, FC Tina, Regen Tina and Prank Tina. You can definitely switch your imposter to it for scouting, but you don't like eating band ground STAB, nor do you want to eat +2 Earth Plate judgment or +6 Bonemerang in the end.

Now I'd like to go over the known and common 12 offensive Pdon sets (i.e. no Regenvest / FC support dons included) and see what they do to their intended switch-ins listed above. These 12 picks are also prone to my personal/biased usage of pdon :v
Other sets like Speed Boost Tail glow Earth Judgment that punishes slow u-turn to imposter, or sick Water Absorb Smash ones, or even Soundproof, are surely okay but not as common ig.

This is where the first screaming of broken comes from. The power of dealing 70.6 - 83.3% to +Def non-FC Giratina, and 55.6 - 65.7% to non-FC Zygarde just leaves you the impression of broken. Note that in the check sets above, the FC Dragons are EVed to outspeed Pdon at -1 so it can heal it up after switching into a V-create.

Can switch in:
FC Zyg, FC Bro, FC Porge, FCeus, FC Tina, FC Pert (both Porge and Pert dying to two Band V-create even it is a +Def nature under FC, so be sure to EVed it at least 205 speed)Cannot safely switch in:
PSea Cele (dies to two hit from Band Tarrows), FC Chansey, Regen Tina, Prank Tina

Somehow got a very high usage on the ladder, while using non-plate Chansey as a setup fodder. Espeed is quite common, but Sunsteel Strike is also an option to break through FC Chansey and Unaware Audino, which otherwise walls it.

(224 Def to guaranteed Bone OHKO imposter eviolite Chansey from full. You can rely on SR if you want 252 Def Evs) A very dreadful sweeper, usually you need Prankster Hazed/Dbond, or simply don't allow it to set up, or spectral it on the turn of setting-up / core it on the turn of setting-up and win speed tie with your imposter etc.

The set is hard to improof though, you are likely to use unaware neutral mons with topsy-turvy. You can use Zing Zap over Bolt Strike so you can use a Spectral Thief Baton pass FC Chansey to safely improof it, and pressure opposing imposter in the cycle. Bolt is needed to land key OHKOs at +2 on FC Porge though.

If you are unsure of whether banning Pdon is the good option to go, if you are on the fence, if you are considering banning a mon from BH just hard to agree upon, I suggest you try some of these sets yourself and maybe you will form your own stand on this. Hopefully I didn't make too bad mistakes in these sets, and thanks for the reading of such a long-ass post lol.

I do like this post, but after reading it over a couple times, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say in it. From what I can gather, you want people to see that Pdon is broken/should be banned, but are trying to do it in a way where people are able to form their own opinion based on the information you provided. If I'm wrong, please let me know and ignore the rest of this, but if I'm not, I like the idea of it. However, I don't think the post quite accomplishes that. If anything, it gives more of a reason to believe Pdon isn't broken, and again if I'm wrong in assuming you want people to see it's broken then ignore this.

The main issue I see with arguments to ban/suspect Pdon is that people are talking like it always runs all of these sets, when one Pdon can only run one set. And whenever I do try having discussions about this topic whether it be in the OM room on Showdown or the BH Discord, or wherever I end up talking about it, it turns into "what if" scenarios, which go nowhere. Someone starts off by talking about the Tinted Lens set, but when I provide reliable ways to play around it, they say "what if it's Galvanize". See the issue? (And this isn't directed to fsk, this is directed to anyone who reads this). You can't bring up one set, but say it can run something else when given a reliable check/counter.

So how would you know what your opponent is running on their Pdon? Well, unless you can read a team like no one I have ever met, you aren't gonna know what they are running. That means you have to scout until safety. Things like Imposter and blanket checks are perfect for that purpose. The argument that can rise from that statement though, is that it can kill the Pokemon you are scouting with. Well, that means that either you weren't using a blanket check, or they had a good lure, and any single Pokemon in BH can run a lure like that. Of course some have better stats to accomplish it, but the point still stands. Any Pokemon with decent stats will have multiple viable sets, the reason the idea that something is broken because of this fact is because of how well the mon takes advantage of these blanket checks. In the case of Pdon, I do not personally believe these different sets cover enough blanket checks to be considered broken. And I also do not believe that one Pdon set is so good that it nullifies any check it may have.

Hopefully I got across what I was trying to say in a decent way, as I just about had a stroke trying to write it for some reason. To sum it up, fsk unless you were trying not to make a point on purpose, try to drive reasons/evidence into one direction, but you may have been trying to remain semi-neutral based on your first paragraph so I really don't know lol. And to everyone else, Pdon can't run all its sets at once, so focus on one at a time, and you have to use various scouting methods, as you do with any Pokemon, to find out what set you are up against. I don't think it should be banned cause I don't think it abuses these scouting methods. Thanks for reading.

I do like this post, but after reading it over a couple times, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say in it. From what I can gather, you want people to see that Pdon is broken/should be banned, but are trying to do it in a way where people are able to form their own opinion based on the information you provided. If I'm wrong, please let me know and ignore the rest of this, but if I'm not, I like the idea of it. However, I don't think the post quite accomplishes that. If anything, it gives more of a reason to believe Pdon isn't broken, and again if I'm wrong in assuming you want people to see it's broken then ignore this.

The main issue I see with arguments to ban/suspect Pdon is that people are talking like it always runs all of these sets, when one Pdon can only run one set. And whenever I do try having discussions about this topic whether it be in the OM room on Showdown or the BH Discord, or wherever I end up talking about it, it turns into "what if" scenarios, which go nowhere. Someone starts off by talking about the Tinted Lens set, but when I provide reliable ways to play around it, they say "what if it's Galvanize". See the issue? (And this isn't directed to fsk, this is directed to anyone who reads this). You can't bring up one set, but say it can run something else when given a reliable check/counter.

So how would you know what your opponent is running on their Pdon? Well, unless you can read a team like no one I have ever met, you aren't gonna know what they are running. That means you have to scout until safety. Things like Imposter and blanket checks are perfect for that purpose. The argument that can rise from that statement though, is that it can kill the Pokemon you are scouting with. Well, that means that either you weren't using a blanket check, or they had a good lure, and any single Pokemon in BH can run a lure like that. Of course some have better stats to accomplish it, but the point still stands. Any Pokemon with decent stats will have multiple viable sets, the reason the idea that something is broken because of this fact is because of how well the mon takes advantage of these blanket checks. In the case of Pdon, I do not personally believe these different sets cover enough blanket checks to be considered broken. And I also do not believe that one Pdon set is so good that it nullifies any check it may have.

Hopefully I got across what I was trying to say in a decent way, as I just about had a stroke trying to write it for some reason. To sum it up, fsk unless you were trying not to make a point on purpose, try to drive reasons/evidence into one direction, but you may have been trying to remain semi-neutral based on your first paragraph so I really don't know lol. And to everyone else, Pdon can't run all its sets at once, so focus on one at a time, and you have to use various scouting methods, as you do with any Pokemon, to find out what set you are up against. I don't think it should be banned cause I don't think it abuses these scouting methods. Thanks for reading.

While your criticism isn't incorrect in any way, the reason why we have to regard about Pdon being able to carry 10+ sets is because first, you don't know what it is running and Imposter Chansey takes risk taking massive damage on switch-in or possibly letting it set up Shell Smash. Second reason is because every single sets fsk has mentioned can either grab a turn of opportunity to set up and proceed to sweep or has a power to 2HKO or OHKO everything from unprepared teams. Therefore, despite the fact that Primal Groudon can opt to run only one set in reality, none of the sets it runs should be neglected, and one must prepare for them with the best of their abilities.

Anyways I would like to voice my opinions on Primal Groudon once again because I didn't have a chance to express my thoughts far enough.

Apart from the post I have made in the past, I will point out some banning philosophies that are in the OP:

Inherent/Natural Qualities:

A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.

In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards

Primal Groudon already is a truck with 180 Attack and 150 Special Attack, and this sort of mixed offensive stats are nowhere to be found outsides Mega Rayquaza, Primal Kyogre, and both Mega's of Mewtwo. Yes, it does outshine many 'mons in the tier namely Mega Garchomp, Mega Blaziken, or any other offensive Ground-types and Fire-types and they have no reason to be used over Primal Groudon. What differentiates Primal Groudon from most threats in meta is its STAB combination which is unresisted with Thousand Arrows. That allows Primal Groudon to carry moves such as Ice Hammer, Bolt Strike, or even Special Dragon or Fairy-type moves because it can still deal with the rest of the meta with its dual STAB even if its coverage options turn out to be inefficient against the team it is against. Lastly, its typing provides neutrality to Stealth Rock which is fairly rare among Fire-types unlike Mega Rayquaza whose longevity is plagued by Stealth Rock weakness.

Multidimensional and Unique Sets:

Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive

It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more

I won't even say how many offensive sets it can run because fsk has already mentioned loads of them and most people in dedicated playerbase or even average players seem to be aware of Primal Groudon's versatility and unpredictability at this point. Defensively, thanks to its typing, Primal Groudon can run defensive sets with little or no trouble at all. with 100/160/90 bulk that has been improved even further after full EV meta, AV regen sets entirely wall Pixilate Diancie with V-create while being able to function as an emergency Gengar check (AV lets it live +2 Judgment and Normalize variants are checked by Revelation Dance). Desolate Land, if used defensively, can still wall Pixilate Diancie with ease as long as one manages to keep it healthy and can completely shut down Primal Kyogre. Nothing in the world is wrong with Primal Groudon running Fur Coat because not only its Defense is doubled from base 160, but it also retains its offensive presence while functioning as a defensive wall.
"There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more". What else in metagame runs offense that Primal Groudon currently runs at this moment?

Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:

One of (or both):

It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or

Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier

The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other

It is not necessarily difficult to win without using Primal Groudon (I honestly find some issues with the first bullet point but I will point that out later), but it is more than clear that checks and counters for Primal Groudon is very insufficient at this moment when most people in ladder already runs 'check' to Primal Groudon by dedicating to sacrifice one of their teamslots (namely running Fur Coat or defensive dragon in every team) and still gets swept by Pdon more than often. It might be just me but I can witness 1500-1700 players mostly struggle dealing with Primal Groudon because their team is just not enough to deal with setup variants and physically offensive variants of Pdon at the same time. And after they give Pdon a single opportunity to set up, the game is usually over if Pdon is imposterproofed by Earth Plate or something. Shortly, one team slot (maybe even two) is not enough to 'stop' Primal Groudon, and preparing for Primal Groudon any further than this will significantly shrink one's team size that are to deal with the rest of the meta. Such as:

"Imposter and FC Tina doesn't seem to do enough job stopping pdon. Lemme get Unaware Swampert so i can stop galvanize and pixilate."

"Yay! Now I have two 'mons to hit the rest of the meta, and I won't be able to improof them unless I use obvious stuff like specs surge mmy which is also walled by their AV regen solg. That means I have 2 teamslots to use 1 offensive mon and 1 improofing mon and this will be easy af to get walled so I might as well build stall now."

Okay, this is really dumb and probably won't-happen-ever-example but one has to choose between dealing with the rest of the meta while losing to considerable portion of sets Pdon runs or just simply running stall team that is dedicated to deal with Primal Groudon and performs way worse against other teams.

So that was my second reasoning of why Pdon should go from BH. The reason why I do not suggest to ban other options such as V-create or whatever is to avoid the chance that other 'mons get collateral damage by banning something other than Pdon, and if we have suspected and banned stuff like V-create instead of Pdon, and if it turns out Primal Groudon is still overcentralizing and is an extreme pain to deal with, the metagame would stay unhealthier for couple months longer when we could make it healthier by simply banning Primal Groudon.

I expect to hear some criticisms because I usually don't do the hottest job pointing out banworthy 'mons using banning philosophy, so please feel free to leave a feedback that isn't a one-liner. Thanks for reading.

Attachments

While I can understand people not wanting to ban a Pokemon because its the big taboo thing in BH, we really need to stop ignoring the elephant in the room and dancing around the issue. In pretty much every suspect discussion since IO was banned, barring talks of Sleep, which is the one Pokemon that invariably gets brought up a lot? Primal Groudon. Which is the one Pokemon people work damn hard to avoid mentioning when trying to prove something else is broken in order to illustrate its not just one Pokemon warping it? Primal Groudon. The thing is so friggin' flexible, with about a dozen or so optimal sets and probably two or three dozen more viable ones on top of it, you can't possibly prepare for everything it could do. Like, yeah, it's true you can't do that for every Pokemon such as encountering Refrigerate Mewtwo-Y or something, but there's a huuuuuuuuuuuge difference between most of the other top tier Pokemon, who do one particular subset of sets extremely well and kinda are so-so to sucky at the others, and Primaldon which does almost everything you can give serious consideration to giving it viably.

Really, let's just handle the 'Don already. Its centralizing as hell in gameplay and centralizing as hell in suspect discussion. It needs to be addressed directly rather than trying to chip at its sets and moves.

If anyone wants some more in-depth reasoning from me on the topic, here's two posts I made on it.

I do like this post, but after reading it over a couple times, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say in it. From what I can gather, you want people to see that Pdon is broken/should be banned, but are trying to do it in a way where people are able to form their own opinion based on the information you provided. If I'm wrong, please let me know and ignore the rest of this, but if I'm not, I like the idea of it. However, I don't think the post quite accomplishes that. If anything, it gives more of a reason to believe Pdon isn't broken, and again if I'm wrong in assuming you want people to see it's broken then ignore this.

The main issue I see with arguments to ban/suspect Pdon is that people are talking like it always runs all of these sets, when one Pdon can only run one set. And whenever I do try having discussions about this topic whether it be in the OM room on Showdown or the BH Discord, or wherever I end up talking about it, it turns into "what if" scenarios, which go nowhere. Someone starts off by talking about the Tinted Lens set, but when I provide reliable ways to play around it, they say "what if it's Galvanize". See the issue? (And this isn't directed to fsk, this is directed to anyone who reads this). You can't bring up one set, but say it can run something else when given a reliable check/counter.

So how would you know what your opponent is running on their Pdon? Well, unless you can read a team like no one I have ever met, you aren't gonna know what they are running. That means you have to scout until safety. Things like Imposter and blanket checks are perfect for that purpose. The argument that can rise from that statement though, is that it can kill the Pokemon you are scouting with. Well, that means that either you weren't using a blanket check, or they had a good lure, and any single Pokemon in BH can run a lure like that. Of course some have better stats to accomplish it, but the point still stands. Any Pokemon with decent stats will have multiple viable sets, the reason the idea that something is broken because of this fact is because of how well the mon takes advantage of these blanket checks. In the case of Pdon, I do not personally believe these different sets cover enough blanket checks to be considered broken. And I also do not believe that one Pdon set is so good that it nullifies any check it may have.

Hopefully I got across what I was trying to say in a decent way, as I just about had a stroke trying to write it for some reason. To sum it up, fsk unless you were trying not to make a point on purpose, try to drive reasons/evidence into one direction, but you may have been trying to remain semi-neutral based on your first paragraph so I really don't know lol. And to everyone else, Pdon can't run all its sets at once, so focus on one at a time, and you have to use various scouting methods, as you do with any Pokemon, to find out what set you are up against. I don't think it should be banned cause I don't think it abuses these scouting methods. Thanks for reading.

Yes, it's true that all of PDon's sets have multiple, viable counters. Yes, it's true that most offensive mons in BH can tailor their set to beat their usual counters and PDon is not alone in this. Yes, it's true that PDon can't beat all of its counters at once. That doesn't matter.

You're looking at PDon only in terms of its defensive counterplay in a vacuum, without considering it in other contexts or its effect on teambuilding and on the metagame more broadly. PDon's versatility means that it practically necessitates 2 dedicated defensive answers on any team that isn't HO. There is only a very short list of things that can actually switch into even PDon's most common set (CB wallbreaker), and they're mostly very similar. This leads to far less variety in defensive cores and more homogeneity between teams, and makes it very difficult for teams to adequately prepare for the rest of the metagame when so much space has to be dedicated to beating PDon.

PDon's fantastic bulk and defensive typing make it very difficult to wear down — it's immune to Volt Switch and resistant to U-turn, it can't be burned nor paralysed by anything except Glare. PDon is not only the strongest wallbreaker in the metagame, but it's also fat enough to pretty comfortably take hits from many of the scariest offensive mons in the tier. This also lets PDon set up really easily and is a huge part of the reason that PDon's boosting sets are so dangerous. Unlike similar slow wallbreakers, PDon's bulk and resilience against common pivoting moves means that it can't just be beaten by keeping up momentum against it and forcing it out with offensive pressure.

You aren't wrong when you say that other offensive mons can change their set to beat common counters, but different mons can do it to different degrees of effectiveness and none (except arguably MRay) can do it as well as PDon. There's a couple of important factors to consider when evaluating how good a BH set is at beating its counters; how diverse its counters are and how much functionality it sacrifices when it changes its set. I'll give you an example of a mon that is much less flexible to show you what I mean — let's take PH Primal Kyogre.

This set is countered by pretty much any bulky mon with Core Enforcer, most bulky waters, most Unawares, Desolate Land PDon, and a few other miscellaneous mons. It also has a lot of trouble sweeping against a team with a bulky Spectral Thief mon or a Prankster. Now, POgre has options to beat these, but if it changes its set to do so it comes at a cost. If POgre runs coverage to hit other Water-types, then it may struggle against Imposter. Moonblast is an option over Ice Beam to hit MGyara and some other bulky waters, but it doesn't OHKO MRay unboosted or Zyg at +1 like Ice Beam does, and opens up the possibility of losing to a crit from Imposter. POgre can't beat Core Enforcer without tomfoolery like Imprison + Core or Conversion + Moonblast, which are niche options that use up multiple moveslots. POgre can replace Spore with Leech Seed or Taunt to beat some mons, but losing Spore means you lose to some other mons. It's a balancing act. If it wants to beat its checks and counters, it always has to sacrifice something important. Most offensive threats in BH are similar to this.

With just two moves and an item, this set has no switchins besides Giratina (tho this takes ~45), Big Zygarde, Shed, a few fat water types, and some Fur Coat mons. The rest of the metagame is 2HKO'd, and don't forget that this is on top of having very solid bulk and a decent speed tier. Now we can add an ability — Adaptability, Tinted Lens, Mold Breaker, Desolate Land, whatever — and that list of counters shrinks further. We can add moves like U-turn, Precipice Blades, Bolt Strike, Ice Hammer, Trick, and PDon gains even more utility. PDon hasn't sacrificed anything to do this — it already beats most of the tier with just two moves and a Choice Band due to its phenomenal typing, stats, and high BP STAB options. Anything it can get on top of that is just icing. This is why PDon is so much more flexible than other offensive mons, and why the argument that 'other mons can also runs coverage to beat their counters' doesn't really hold much weight. PDon accomplishes so much with so little that it doesn't have to sacrifice anything substantial to run extra coverage/boosting abilities on top of this.

PDon's counters are also mostly pretty similar — bulky fire resists with Fur Coat. This makes it very easy for PDon to lure its common switchins, because there's so little variety among them.

This isn't even to mention PDon's special and mixed sets, which sacrifice some initial power to much more easily lure its usual counters (especially the ones with Fur Coat). This adds an entire extra layer to PDon's flexibility that so few mons can match.

You've said that PDon's set can easily be scouted, but I would contest that. Imposter is not a good PDon switch-in as so many of the best PDon sets 2HKO it or just set up on it. Even just an unboosted CB Thousand Arrows does around 35%. The ability to hit itself super-effectively with it's own STAB is one of PDon's greatest strengths. And it's easy enough to say that you can just scout its set by switching around, but that's a weak argument because 1) switching around in front of PDon is so risky considering how hard it can hit from both sides and how dangerous it is if it sets up and 2) that doesn't change the fact that you need to run multiple counters to reliably deal with it.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 千尺乇乇 ㄚㄖㄩ尺 爪丨几刀 (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

so you know how i keep talking about how hyper offense is matchup based and stuff? well that's only against stall teams. today i was using my own hyper offense team and went up against an opposing hyper offense team and it was... well, i guess i have to show you.

i see that my opponent is using the mmy spam team that has become infamous on the ladder. because he has 6 mmy, i don't know what to expect from them, but psychic surge and prankster destiny bond sound likely. meanwhile, i have a gmu certified™ team based around my prankster spore regigigas set.

[leads]☆Duckymomo Senior: Good lucks

Gengar used Magic Coat!
Gengar shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The opposing Mewtwo used Zap Cannon!
Gengar lost 47.8% of its health!
Gengar is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!Turn 2

The opposing Mewtwo used Magma Storm!
Gengar lost 44.1% of its health!
Gengar became trapped by swirling magma!

Gengar is paralyzed! It can't move!

Gengar is hurt by Magma Storm!

Gengar fainted!

my suicide lead gengar looks like the best choice. i don't know whether i can handle stealth rock on my side so i click magic coat and he turns out to be no guard. gengar dies which is no big loss but i don't get hazards because of...hax. this will be a recurring theme

he reveals steam eruption, killing my pdon. if he didn't have steam eruption, pdon could have set up with contrary v create. there was no way for me to know that he was steam eruption, and you can't say that it was a "risk/reward assessment" because how was i supposed to know how valuable my pdon would be?

ph regi is my best answer to this mmy, so i spore it with my prankster regi. he's forced to stay in and zap cannon because of the threat of ph. if he was safety goggles, i might have just lost there. i get the sleep turn i need and activate toxic orb. more hax

here i "correctly predict" goggles destiny bond mmy. if he was psycho boost i would have lost my regi, and him using psycho boost mmy as his regigigas check would mean that my regigigas would have been extremely valuable. i was forced to bank on the assumption that he was a good builder

he has another opportunity to wake up and use destiny bond, but again i get the 2 turn sleep i need and kill the mmy.

i decide not to spore and go straight for the facade, which turns out to work. he reveals that he's scarf and would have won had i been adamant regigigas. if he was sash, he would have killed regi. more matchup

i decide to spore the next mmy and get memed by lum berry contrary out of nowhere. if i clicked facade there i would have beat the mmy, but i feared sash. the score is regigigas, pdon, and kartana to 4 mmy

[turn 12]
The opposing Mewtwo used Moongeist Beam!
Kartana hung on using its Focus Sash!
Kartana lost 99.7% of its health!

he brings in the sleeping (no guard) mmy from earlier. the mmy has a 50% chance to wake up at this point (it's been asleep for 2 turns) which it doesn't.

my kartana is rocking a moveset of shell smash/sunsteel/destiny bond/sacred fire. unfortunately it doesn't have prankster because i decided to give it dazzling for priority without thinking about the implications of that.

Kartana used Sunsteel Strike!
A critical hit! The opposing Mewtwo lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Mewtwo fainted!

Duckymomo Senior sent out Mewtwo (Mewtwo-Mega-Y)!

i'm not sure whether he's sash (in which case destiny bond would be the play) but i click sunsteel and it works. the score is regigigas pdon and kartana to 1 mmy. regigigas is prankster, pdon is also prankster. don't ask

[grand finale]
Kartana used Destiny Bond!
Kartana is hoping to take its attacker down with it!

i go for destiny bond on the last mmy, hoping to pick it off, but he reveals simple shell smash. i'm pretty sure he's sash so i click sacred fire and get the 50% burn to win. if i hadn't, he would have killed my other mons and won

look at that. my opponent was making reasonable plays, but they didn't matter at all. i was using my best attempt at hyper offense but all i could do was hope for spore to get sleep turns. there was no "prediction" involved whatsoever, the battle was simply based around what set the mons had. imagine if that was an ompl game or something

man i don't know what to do, but i really want that to stop. in other tiers you at least know the implication of each possible play, but in bh you have no idea whether you needed that pdon to sweep the opposing team or whether their regigigas turned out to be prankster destiny bond out of nowhere.

on more defensive teams, you can use imposter to fix this problem somewhat, but with hyper offense you're basically playing blindfolded. i honestly don't know what can be done but i can say with confidence that the hyper offense vs. hyper offense matchup is based around factors out of the players' control. thank you.

so you know how i keep talking about how hyper offense is matchup based and stuff? well that's only against stall teams. today i was using my own hyper offense team and went up against an opposing hyper offense team and it was... well, i guess i have to show you.

i see that my opponent is using the mmy spam team that has become infamous on the ladder. because he has 6 mmy, i don't know what to expect from them, but psychic surge and prankster destiny bond sound likely. meanwhile, i have a gmu certified™ team based around my prankster spore regigigas set.

[leads]☆Duckymomo Senior: Good lucks

Gengar used Magic Coat!
Gengar shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

The opposing Mewtwo used Zap Cannon!
Gengar lost 47.8% of its health!
Gengar is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!Turn 2

The opposing Mewtwo used Magma Storm!
Gengar lost 44.1% of its health!
Gengar became trapped by swirling magma!

Gengar is paralyzed! It can't move!

Gengar is hurt by Magma Storm!

Gengar fainted!

my suicide lead gengar looks like the best choice. i don't know whether i can handle stealth rock on my side so i click magic coat and he turns out to be no guard. gengar dies which is no big loss but i don't get hazards because of...hax. this will be a recurring theme

he reveals steam eruption, killing my pdon. if he didn't have steam eruption, pdon could have set up with contrary v create. there was no way for me to know that he was steam eruption, and you can't say that it was a "risk/reward assessment" because how was i supposed to know how valuable my pdon would be?

ph regi is my best answer to this mmy, so i spore it with my prankster regi. he's forced to stay in and zap cannon because of the threat of ph. if he was safety goggles, i might have just lost there. i get the sleep turn i need and activate toxic orb. more hax

here i "correctly predict" goggles destiny bond mmy. if he was psycho boost i would have lost my regi, and him using psycho boost mmy as his regigigas check would mean that my regigigas would have been extremely valuable. i was forced to bank on the assumption that he was a good builder

he has another opportunity to wake up and use destiny bond, but again i get the 2 turn sleep i need and kill the mmy.

i decide not to spore and go straight for the facade, which turns out to work. he reveals that he's scarf and would have won had i been adamant regigigas. if he was sash, he would have killed regi. more matchup

i decide to spore the next mmy and get memed by lum berry contrary out of nowhere. if i clicked facade there i would have beat the mmy, but i feared sash. the score is regigigas, pdon, and kartana to 4 mmy

[turn 12]
The opposing Mewtwo used Moongeist Beam!
Kartana hung on using its Focus Sash!
Kartana lost 99.7% of its health!

he brings in the sleeping (no guard) mmy from earlier. the mmy has a 50% chance to wake up at this point (it's been asleep for 2 turns) which it doesn't.

my kartana is rocking a moveset of shell smash/sunsteel/destiny bond/sacred fire. unfortunately it doesn't have prankster because i decided to give it dazzling for priority without thinking about the implications of that.

Kartana used Sunsteel Strike!
A critical hit! The opposing Mewtwo lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Mewtwo fainted!

Duckymomo Senior sent out Mewtwo (Mewtwo-Mega-Y)!

i'm not sure whether he's sash (in which case destiny bond would be the play) but i click sunsteel and it works. the score is regigigas pdon and kartana to 1 mmy. regigigas is prankster, pdon is also prankster. don't ask

[grand finale]
Kartana used Destiny Bond!
Kartana is hoping to take its attacker down with it!

i go for destiny bond on the last mmy, hoping to pick it off, but he reveals simple shell smash. i'm pretty sure he's sash so i click sacred fire and get the 50% burn to win. if i hadn't, he would have killed my other mons and won

look at that. my opponent was making reasonable plays, but they didn't matter at all. i was using my best attempt at hyper offense but all i could do was hope for spore to get sleep turns. there was no "prediction" involved whatsoever, the battle was simply based around what set the mons had. imagine if that was an ompl game or something

man i don't know what to do, but i really want that to stop. in other tiers you at least know the implication of each possible play, but in bh you have no idea whether you needed that pdon to sweep the opposing team or whether their regigigas turned out to be prankster destiny bond out of nowhere.

on more defensive teams, you can use imposter to fix this problem somewhat, but with hyper offense you're basically playing blindfolded. i honestly don't know what can be done but i can say with confidence that the hyper offense vs. hyper offense matchup is based around factors out of the players' control. thank you.

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-

Good back and forth discussion by RNG, Dg9, Mamp and whoever else participated. I think there is enough dialogue now to have a serious look at Primal Groudon. So my next action will be to suspect Primal Groudon. I will try to release the information by Sunday EST (that's usually when i like to start suspects)

E: The suspect will have to take place next week due to clash with MnM suspect

Love colored magic

I think the problem with pdon is that although no individual set is overpowered, there are so many sets that pdon can run extremely effectively. There is a high opportunity cost to scouting out exactly what set it is. You either have to dance around with your defensive mons until you reveal its moveset, or manage to bring chans in safely without getting set up on or killed.

Additionally, because of how effective pdon's offensive stats and typing are, it can run lure sets with relatively little opportunity cost, which usually end up killing the "general" pdon counter that most teams have.

Hey yo I know Kit just made a post bout that right above and Mamp also covered most of what I'm gonna say a few posts up, but it's an understated aspect of primal groudon and I feel some ppl might not even know what it means so I'm just gonna develop on it a little.

Opportunity cost is in this particular aspect, the fact that by running a set, you're not running another. Opportunity cost is always an issue when running lures which is what essentially makes lures balanced and why everyone isn't just running lures at all times. Basically, lures are subpar sets, not just in relation to the mon's main set but also in relation to other mons running the set the lure is running.

So for example you want to lure out counters to PH Kyogre right, so you run TG sheer force to OHKO PH giratina or opposing regenvest ogre or w/e. The problem is that you don't have half of the appeal of regular PH Kyogre. You don't have the defensive utility, the staying power, the longevity, and for every 1 more mon you now beat there's like 3 you now lose to. You're essentially running something shitter to get past common counters. That's a case where the set is shitter than the main set.

Another example would be like you want to lure out audino for your gengar or sceptile or w/e right? So you have an yveltal with aerilate boomburst to get that clean 2HKO on it / weaken it enough for gengar to sweep. The problem here is that for the added luring value, you ended up running an yveltal instead of rayquaza, which is undeniably considerably worse in any other scenario. That's a case where you're running a set much better run on other mons. So the luring factor comes with the opportunity cost of not running that other mon instead.

This is very much a non issue with groudon because for one, like mamp already said, groudon barely needs anything more than just v-create. So the opportunity cost of running a weird coverage move that you might not use that much is moot, same for the oc of running a weird ability like pixilate or some shit, groudon still does what it needs to do perfectly well.
And the other aspect is that for the billion of sets that groudon can run, he's like the best / one of the best users of the set for almost all of them. Mixed pixilate, improof contrary, speed boost tg... nobody does it better than groudon, you're legit running an optimal set and a lure at the same time.

Anyway I don't know if that post was necessary or not but I felt like writing it anyway, I might not have done a very good job at it but w/e. Mamp says quite a lot in few lines and I don't want to re-iterate more of it so I would advice for reading his post again and really considering it and thinking about why the shit that he's pointing out makes pdon broken. But all in all on that aspect pdon is not comparable to any other mon in the meta, it's just one rank above.

Primal Groudon definitely dominates in this tier. Great Attack and Defense stats, Sp.Attack good enough to surprise you with Galvanize, Ice Beam or Fleur Cannon outta nowhere and good offensive and defensive typing. Only 2 weaknesses (Water and Ground) and one of them does not exist in Desolate Land/Water Absorb sets.
Its wallbreaking power is just overwhelming, and this is augmented by the fact that it can use any item (Goggles, Assault Vest, Leftovers, Focus Sash Smasher) to support itself. Groudon can use a large variety of destructive movesets from Desolate Land + V-create to Contrary V-create/Superpower/Draco Meteor, through Galvanize + Chill Drive Techno Blast/Ice Judgment or even Dazzling Shell Smash with Thousand Arrows and coverage (usually Ice). The last fashion trends include even Adaptability, Tinted Lens that OHKO's Kyogre with Choice Band+V-create, Magic Guard mixed Shell Smash that OHKO's Giratina at +2 with Light Of Ruin... The fact that we can use Primal Groudon directly as a form to use makes it very difficult to anticipate what moveset it's using, and being able to use any item makes it even stronger.

Usually we use Fur Coat dragons like Giratina and Zygarde to check Primal Groudon, but the rise of Refrigerate/Pixilate and Magic Guard Light Of Ruin can turn these options less viable. All these set options that Kit Kasai mentioned, are all used and can create on us thoughts like this when Teambuilding: "Ok. I need a mon to check Primal Groudon. Let's use FC Tina/Zygarde. Then you face a don meme with Refridgerate or Pixilate and you see it's not as viable as it was. So...let's use FC Tapu Fini or Mega Slowbro! Ah wait, no it will not work perfectly because Galvanize Groudon OHKO's it with Boomburst and we never know what groudon set we are facing without playing around with our own mons, until we can reveal its moveset, and sometimes after they shell smash it may be too late....because Groudon can be anything (Dazzling, Contrary, Galvanize...) :/ Godammit what the hell shall I use?"

The suggestion here is to BAN Primal Groudon from being directly selected as a form to use and make mandatory the use of Red Orb in order to be used. This is like we did in Generation 6, and the only thing we have good against Groudon brought by Generation 7 is Zygarde-Complete. However, it's not enough as we all could see. The meta will be much more playable in the future if don gets banned. After this, i think no more bans shall be needed.

I still think we should have a sleep clause added but other than that pretty much what Balanced Freakmons said. Pdon is impossible to counter due to flexibility combined with raw power, it should be suspected and (hopefully) banned.

After spending 30 minutes watching OMPL replays (also a lot of ladder play), my opinion right now on pdon is:

1/ Pdon is not overpowered. It is definitely the best offensive mon in BH, but when you look at the replays, none of the sets quoted above actually put in big amount of works, the only "game winning" sets being really unpredictable like Speed Boost, Water absorb EQ+Ice beam or a weird ss earth power zing zap in late game sweeps (Stakeout pdon also was brutal but that's just stakeout). The strength of Pdon doesn't lie in its sheer power of ability to wallbreak. This doesn't mean it isn't ban worthy (see 2/ and 3/ ) but it means that alternate fixes like banning v-create wouldn't work, because the main asset of pdon is more its versatility than sheer power, because things like tina can wall sets designed to just spam v-create.

2/ Pdon may have too much versatility. There barely is any pdon set used more than once in those replays. Still, it doesn't mean it is a luring god. Pdon offenses are not enough to just OHKO everything with the right coverage and easily lure everything. It's sweeping potential is similar to that of most offensive mons like MMY or mray. It's versatility is good, but nothing over the top, as many of those sets have big opportunity cost (galvanize earth plate doesn't break tina any better than physical version for instance). There is really unpredictable and terrifying sets, like magic guard/contrary w/ fleur cannon, but I am not sure that is enough to put pdon over the edge (after all, MMY can get rid of its counters with coverage and sheer force quite easily too).

3/ What is in my opinion the biggest issue is the pressure pdon puts on teambuilding. Many people raised the issue that it required 2 mons to effectively check it. While regenvest tina is often enough to play around it, I agree that core are often need for pdon with fleur cannon/light of ruin. I believe Flash Fire ferrothorn also walls almost all sets that cant just brute force it like adaptability. While it is "easy" to teambuild to be as prepared for pdon as for any other Bh threat, the monster admittedly does require more checks than others.

In conclusion, I think people are overselling pdon a bit. It definitely is the best offensive mon in BH, but it is just as terrifying for defensive counterplay as things like sheer force mmy. A suspect is fully deserved, but I doubt anyone should have a fully fixed idea of the impact and brokenness of pdon until the suspect actually is running(which is good, because that's the point of the suspect in the first place).

I'm not entirely sure what brought this on,but it looks to me that it's an attempt to argue that V-Create is the broken aspect of pdon. While it's no argument that V-Create is pdons best asset,I don't think the move itself inherently broken,just really strong.

About the contrary point,dude of course it's good,that's a Strong fire coverage that's boosting three different stats at once. And In a contrary situation,it's the ability making the move even better.
If pdons really stayed in spamming v create after v create,they'd be outspeed and OHKO'd all the time.

Hey yo I know Kit just made a post bout that right above and Mamp also covered most of what I'm gonna say a few posts up, but it's an understated aspect of primal groudon and I feel some ppl might not even know what it means so I'm just gonna develop on it a little.

Opportunity cost is in this particular aspect, the fact that by running a set, you're not running another. Opportunity cost is always an issue when running lures which is what essentially makes lures balanced and why everyone isn't just running lures at all times. Basically, lures are subpar sets, not just in relation to the mon's main set but also in relation to other mons running the set the lure is running.

So for example you want to lure out counters to PH Kyogre right, so you run TG sheer force to OHKO PH giratina or opposing regenvest ogre or w/e. The problem is that you don't have half of the appeal of regular PH Kyogre. You don't have the defensive utility, the staying power, the longevity, and for every 1 more mon you now beat there's like 3 you now lose to. You're essentially running something shitter to get past common counters. That's a case where the set is shitter than the main set.

Another example would be like you want to lure out audino for your gengar or sceptile or w/e right? So you have an yveltal with aerilate boomburst to get that clean 2HKO on it / weaken it enough for gengar to sweep. The problem here is that for the added luring value, you ended up running an yveltal instead of rayquaza, which is undeniably considerably worse in any other scenario. That's a case where you're running a set much better run on other mons. So the luring factor comes with the opportunity cost of not running that other mon instead.

This is very much a non issue with groudon because for one, like mamp already said, groudon barely needs anything more than just v-create. So the opportunity cost of running a weird coverage move that you might not use that much is moot, same for the oc of running a weird ability like pixilate or some shit, groudon still does what it needs to do perfectly well.
And the other aspect is that for the billion of sets that groudon can run, he's like the best / one of the best users of the set for almost all of them. Mixed pixilate, improof contrary, speed boost tg... nobody does it better than groudon, you're legit running an optimal set and a lure at the same time.

Anyway I don't know if that post was necessary or not but I felt like writing it anyway, I might not have done a very good job at it but w/e. Mamp says quite a lot in few lines and I don't want to re-iterate more of it so I would advice for reading his post again and really considering it and thinking about why the shit that he's pointing out makes pdon broken. But all in all on that aspect pdon is not comparable to any other mon in the meta, it's just one rank above.

After spending 30 minutes watching OMPL replays (also a lot of ladder play), my opinion right now on pdon is:

1/ Pdon is not overpowered. It is definitely the best offensive mon in BH, but when you look at the replays, none of the sets quoted above actually put in big amount of works, the only "game winning" sets being really unpredictable like Speed Boost, Water absorb EQ+Ice beam or a weird ss earth power zing zap in late game sweeps (Stakeout pdon also was brutal but that's just stakeout). The strength of Pdon doesn't lie in its sheer power of ability to wallbreak. This doesn't mean it isn't ban worthy (see 2/ and 3/ ) but it means that alternate fixes like banning v-create wouldn't work, because the main asset of pdon is more its versatility than sheer power, because things like tina can wall sets designed to just spam v-create.

2/ Pdon may have too much versatility. There barely is any pdon set used more than once in those replays. Still, it doesn't mean it is a luring god. Pdon offenses are not enough to just OHKO everything with the right coverage and easily lure everything. It's sweeping potential is similar to that of most offensive mons like MMY or mray. It's versatility is good, but nothing over the top, as many of those sets have big opportunity cost (galvanize earth plate doesn't break tina any better than physical version for instance). There is really unpredictable and terrifying sets, like magic guard/contrary w/ fleur cannon, but I am not sure that is enough to put pdon over the edge (after all, MMY can get rid of its counters with coverage and sheer force quite easily too).

3/ What is in my opinion the biggest issue is the pressure pdon puts on teambuilding. Many people raised the issue that it required 2 mons to effectively check it. While regenvest tina is often enough to play around it, I agree that core are often need for pdon with fleur cannon/light of ruin. I believe Flash Fire ferrothorn also walls almost all sets that cant just brute force it like adaptability. While it is "easy" to teambuild to be as prepared for pdon as for any other Bh threat, the monster admittedly does require more checks than others.

In conclusion, I think people are overselling pdon a bit. It definitely is the best offensive mon in BH, but it is just as terrifying for defensive counterplay as things like sheer force mmy. A suspect is fully deserved, but I doubt anyone should have a fully fixed idea of the impact and brokenness of pdon until the suspect actually is running(which is good, because that's the point of the suspect in the first place).

If you do not know what set it is running (which in groudons case meaning revealing all 4 moves or a choice item), you cannot stay in/switch in to anything that cannot live vcreate. even if it has shown boomburst and judgment and some other special move. without vcreate you dont need resist on top of fur coat to take it, just one of the two. It is in this list that the new counters and ones not weak to those different kinds of coverages find themselves. things like regigigas and audino dont fear groudon without vcreate at all. so I m not sure what to prepare for 1 line responses
in addition, groudon even without vcreate is still more overpowered than mewtwo, rayquaza and kyogre, because it is the only one with fully functional complementary dual stabs plus a defensive typing.
mewty and kyogre have only 1 stab each, and both of rayquazas are both walled by steel and diancie among others. mewtx dont even have useable stabs without boosting.
mewtwo and rayquaza cannot be self improof at all since their typings dont offer useful resists, while groudon has a ton of those, including 2 crucial ones to ates.
groudons stabs dont even share 1 resistance in common, and with arrows none at all. this means even just a basic stab+shell smash set works better than any other of these pokemon.