i have a real easy question: whats up with Shimekiri? is he still alive? if so, where? doing what? training duelists down in the colonies? roaming around solo looking for challenges? scaring good little crane boys and girls? if he's dead, what killed him? how? will we get a story about that perhaps?

1) Based on his previous posts, I believe the OP wants to know why no Tainted monstrosities, or pro-Tainted monstrosities were chosen to be at the Imperial Winter Court.

Um...I can't honestly take this question seriously. You are not actually suggesting that we should have invited a corrupted or Tainted individual into the Winter Court are you?

Because...no.

No.

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The Worf Effect is the idea that someone is built up as particularly good at something (Worf is a Klingon and Chief Security Officer so you know he's tough) and then have them defeated at that thing to show how serious the threat is (see every time he runs at anyone on the Bridge ever). It's a common occurrence in fiction, including L5R, because stories where the protagonists are always succeeding at what they are good at tend to be lacking in drama. I do think having some fictions of each Clan demonstrating why they are renowned for X or Y would be a good way to start an arc, before they start forgetting how to ninja or duel.

What, exactly, are you worried about here with the Spider?I mean, I get the "Worf Effect" but I don't know what your real worry is.

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What is the Spider Clan's agenda?

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What is the role of the Goju and Ninube within the Spider (allies, infiltrators)?

What is the role of re-emerged clan-aligned Shadowlands Horde?

I know this is a shitty answer, but Wait and See. You will see. I promise. And it won't take forever.

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What is the Spider Clan best at?

I think it might be better to let Max flesh this one out.

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What is the role of the Spider Clan as a whole?

You are still new. Still feeling out the Empire.

The Party Line is that the Spider are still the official Conquerors of the Iweko. There is still much in the way of hte Ivory Kingdoms to be tamed and there are always other lands.

Don't think that means that is the only direction for the Spider in the story, however. As I said above, I think some of your questions will be answered as this next arc gets into full swing.

Trust me when I say we aren't ignoring the questions. We aren't ignoring the requests for information.

And we aren't ignoring ANY clan, not even the Spider, in the story.

_________________C Thomas HandShi-Tien Yen-Wang at WC IV*Doji Azai*BackHand*Team Stella*AthosL5R Story Team*L5R RPG Team"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em."

You are still new. Still feeling out the Empire. The Party Line is that the Spider are still the official Conquerors of the Iweko. There is still much in the way of hte Ivory Kingdoms to be tamed and there are always other lands. Don't think that means that is the only direction for the Spider in the story, however.

As long as we don't suffer from the Mantis/Dragon syndrom ("The Empire is in danger, but we sit on our islands and on our mountains and aren't engaged") while we have no real powerbase in the Empire, I will be fine. With your revelations that all our story prizes will be resolved, we do know that we'll - among other things - serve Emperor Seiken as Imperial Matchmaker and Imperial Scribe and leave our print on Rokugani culture with the Empire's greatest musician.

This doesn't mix perfectly with goblins, maho-tsukai and boghags, but if you say that explanations will come, we surely can wait a little longer.

I'm never worried about the Spider Clan not being engaged, since whenever it's involved in the story it seems to be on the front line, dishing out blows and taking them equally. They can't just retreat and wait it out when things go wrong. No complaints either, because being sent out into a damn jungle to colonize it while being harassed endlessly by the other clans suggests to me that the Spider can give as good as they get. It suggests the clan is actually a serious player in Rokugan.

Chris covered quite a few things so I'll give these a try. Let me know if I missed any.

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The biggest question surrounding the Spider Clan, to me, is: What is the Spider Clan's agenda?

I'd say the real answer is that the agenda has changed several times over the years, depending on Kanpeki's plans. The latest blow was, of course, Seiken being chosen as the Heir. More direction will soon become apparent - we're working on a 20 Festivals fiction which will show the state of the Clans as the story begins, and Spider will be in part 1 (We're spoiling you guys!)

I know this doesn't really help, but between the time jump, the team changes and several editions, it's no surprise the Spider has been fluctuating. But we hope to consolidate the identity of the Clan going forward.

Also, Daigotsu is some poser? Really?

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What is the role of the Goju and Ninube within the Spider (allies, infiltrators)?

This will somewhat be addressed in 20F part 1. I've made it a personal task to make the Goju and Ninube more regular features!

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What is the role of re-emerged clan-aligned Shadowlands Horde?

The what now? What are you referring to?

This is a good example of something which might be clear for you, but not so much for us or everyone. Make sure we know what you're referring to, folks!

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What is the Spider Clan best at?

That's a dangerous question, in that while Clans generally have fortes, they're never absolute. Otherwise, Crane being the best at dueling, they would win every Emerald Championship, yet they do not. The same way Lion are the best tacticians, yet lose battles. Also, no Clan is one dimensional - you could say the Crab are the best at siege warfare, but that really doesn't apply to the Yasuki, for example. But overall, I would fall back on the common theme of the Spider as I see it, which is power. Acquiring power and ruthlessly exerting it - that's the Spider way. Their lack of concern for others, even including their own, makes them dangerous.

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What is the role of the Spider Clan as a whole?

That's kind of the same as their agenda. Officially I'd say they're still seen as the conquerors of the Colonies, although they're more of an occupation force than a conquering one right now.

You are still new. Still feeling out the Empire. The Party Line is that the Spider are still the official Conquerors of the Iweko. There is still much in the way of hte Ivory Kingdoms to be tamed and there are always other lands. Don't think that means that is the only direction for the Spider in the story, however.

As long as we don't suffer from the Mantis/Dragon syndrom ("The Empire is in danger, but we sit on our islands and on our mountains and aren't engaged") while we have no real powerbase in the Empire, I will be fine. With your revelations that all our story prizes will be resolved, we do know that we'll - among other things - serve Emperor Seiken as Imperial Matchmaker and Imperial Scribe and leave our print on Rokugani culture with the Empire's greatest musician.

'Revelations' is a big word. All story prizes were always intended to be resolved. What we as the new members want to do is catch up on the backlog of prizes, all of them, Spider or not. This is not a change in procedure, as much as it is a renewed engagement. It will take time, however (but Shiho and the Last Tribe was a start.)

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This doesn't mix perfectly with goblins, maho-tsukai and boghags, but if you say that explanations will come, we surely can wait a little longer.

The Boar are coming back, Max... very little surprises me compared to that!

Here's a pregunta...

To what extent will the increased partisanship of the delegations at Winter Court be considered Clan policy, as opposed to the Champion pinching the bridge of his or her nose and going "next time I'm sending someone who understands the perils of putting all of their eggs in a single basket"?

I know this doesn't really help, but between the time jump, the team changes and several editions, it's no surprise the Spider has been fluctuating. But we hope to consolidate the identity of the Clan going forward.

A clear clan identity, or clear family identities would indeed be very helpful.

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Also, Daigotsu is some poser? Really?

Well, compared to a real Kami. He called Fu Leng, his god and Kami, a brother when he was dying in his arms. That was irritating. Add to it that the worship of Fu Leng was the reason for the Heavens to allow the Spider to participate at the Second Celestial Tournament (after the Unicorn spoke up for us), and now Daigotsu is everywhere and references to Fu Leng, the Spider's true Kami, have yet to be seen. Of course, Daigotsu is the Champion's father, so the predominance of Daigotsu is no surprise. But this all doesn't change the fact that I really dislike that the Story Team replaced Daigotsu with Fu Leng, even more so, because it seems to remain without consequence. The Uniciorn make all the fuzz about the reborn godess (and rightly so), but the Spider seem to have shrugged Fu Leng's death away and started worshipping Daigotsu and Dark Fortunes.

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What is the role of the Goju and Ninube within the Spider (allies, infiltrators)?

This will somewhat be addressed in 20F part 1. I've made it a personal task to make the Goju and Ninube more regular features!

As long as they come across as characters and not as mindless drones like Goju Asagi, this will be fine with me. A red-furred female Ninube counts for me, too.

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What is the role of re-emerged clan-aligned Shadowlands Horde?

The what now? What are you referring to?

I should have called them re-emerged clan-aligned Shadowlands beasts instead. I was refering to the goblins and boghags who seemed to have vanished from the story (like M'rika, Fukuzo, Gakku) and now have come back to the CCG in Twenty Festivals.

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What is the Spider Clan best at?

But overall, I would fall back on the common theme of the Spider as I see it, which is power. Acquiring power and ruthlessly exerting it - that's the Spider way. Their lack of concern for others, even including their own, makes them dangerous.

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What is the role of the Spider Clan as a whole?

That's kind of the same as their agenda. Officially I'd say they're still seen as the conquerors of the Colonies, although they're more of an occupation force than a conquering one right now.

Sounds like the Crab, who have a hard time getting recognition for their duty, because it's not a glorious duty and it involves very unpleasant topics. Now I'm convinced more than ever that the Daigotsu are like the Hida, albeit Hida with a taste for human flesh.

Well, compared to a real Kami. He called Fu Leng, his god and Kami, a brother when he was dying in his arms. That was irritating. Add to it that the worship of Fu Leng was the reason for the Heavens to allow the Spider to participate at the Second Celestial Tournament (after the Unicorn spoke up for us), and now Daigotsu is everywhere and references to Fu Leng, the Spider's true Kami, have yet to be seen. Of course, Daigotsu is the Champion's father, so the predominance of Daigotsu is no surprise. But this all doesn't change the fact that I really dislike that the Story Team replaced Daigotsu with Fu Leng, even more so, because it seems to remain without consequence. The Uniciorn make all the fuzz about the reborn godess (and rightly so), but the Spider seem to have shrugged Fu Leng's death away and started worshipping Daigotsu and Dark Fortunes.

I don't feel Daigotsu calling Fu Leng brother, is as egregious as it first sounds. Daigotsu is Hantei. Divine blood was already flowing through his veins. I'm not 100% sure how this is treated in setting. But if Daigotsu is a direct descendant of Hantei, with divine blood, then while not a "full" kami, he is "of the divine."

And Fu Leng is dead(I'll caveat; for the time being. It seems Kami too can be reborn.) He is not there to venerate, except in memorial. Daigotsu is now the dark kami, in flesh(Hantei's) and in spirit(Fu Leng's).

Well, compared to a real Kami. He called Fu Leng, his god and Kami, a brother when he was dying in his arms. That was irritating. Add to it that the worship of Fu Leng was the reason for the Heavens to allow the Spider to participate at the Second Celestial Tournament (after the Unicorn spoke up for us), and now Daigotsu is everywhere and references to Fu Leng, the Spider's true Kami, have yet to be seen. Of course, Daigotsu is the Champion's father, so the predominance of Daigotsu is no surprise. But this all doesn't change the fact that I really dislike that the Story Team replaced Daigotsu with Fu Leng, even more so, because it seems to remain without consequence. The Uniciorn make all the fuzz about the reborn godess (and rightly so), but the Spider seem to have shrugged Fu Leng's death away and started worshipping Daigotsu and Dark Fortunes.

Well, a lot of this is personal opinion, isn't it? What's irritating to one isn't to another. As pointed above, Daigotsu is related to Fu Leng/Hantei Sotorii, so brother works. Also remember, at the end of the Four Winds era, that Naseru pointed out the Lost believed in Daigotsu more than they did in Fu Leng. Add to that the fact that the Spider are all about the rule of the strongest, and it should be no surprise Fu Leng fell by the wayside. I don't see it in the nature of ruthless murderers (which describes a lot, if not all of the Spider) to mourn the passing of a distant God.

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What is the role of re-emerged clan-aligned Shadowlands Horde?

The what now? What are you referring to?

I should have called them re-emerged clan-aligned Shadowlands beasts instead. I was refering to the goblins and boghags who seemed to have vanished from the story (like M'rika, Fukuzo, Gakku) and now have come back to the CCG in Twenty Festivals.

Ah, I see. Well I would hardly call that a re-emergence. But it makes sense the Tainted side of the Spider kept such contacts.

The Boar are coming back, Max... very little surprises me compared to that!

And I couldn't be happier I got to work on the Boar twice on the RPG side, well done to the players who brought them back.

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Here's a pregunta...

To what extent will the increased partisanship of the delegations at Winter Court be considered Clan policy, as opposed to the Champion pinching the bridge of his or her nose and going "next time I'm sending someone who understands the perils of putting all of their eggs in a single basket"?

Would you have any specific examples? I'm (unsurprisingly) less aware of WC details than Chris or Spooky would be.

As pointed above, Daigotsu is related to Fu Leng/Hantei Sotorii, so brother works. Also remember, at the end of the Four Winds era, that Naseru pointed out the Lost believed in Daigotsu more than they did in Fu Leng. Add to that the fact that the Spider are all about the rule of the strongest, and it should be no surprise Fu Leng fell by the wayside. I don't see it in the nature of ruthless murderers (which describes a lot, if not all of the Spider) to mourn the passing of a distant God.

That's fair, I guess. But I still had thought the death of a Kami to cause more waves. I get that the Spider are unforgiving when weakness is shown, but I remember that Daigotsu and the Spider moved Heaven and Hell, and turned every stone when Fu Leng was thrown out of Jigoku and became a mortal. His blood was still potent enough to, maybe, kill another god, the God-Beast. And the Blood of the Preserver has power even with the Preserver dead. With Iweko giving the Hantei Sword into the care of the Spider as their ancestral sword (as opposed to [url=l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Seiatsu]Seiatsu[/url]) the link to Hantei seems indeed to be considered stronger than the link to Fu Leng. Still, to me, an original Kami trumps other gods.

Would you have any specific examples? I'm (unsurprisingly) less aware of WC details than Chris or Spooky would be.

I guess what is meant here is that the Crane delegation, for instance, threw their comoplete support after Shibatsu (100%) and other delegations also followed a different political stance than their overall clan or Champions. We know that the points will indicate that the heirs (and/or the public?) know about whom a character supports, and that it might influence promotions and issues like this. Or a career end in a backwater village, because a character bet on the wrong horse.

To what extent will the increased partisanship of the delegations at Winter Court be considered Clan policy, as opposed to the Champion pinching the bridge of his or her nose and going "next time I'm sending someone who understands the perils of putting all of their eggs in a single basket"?

Would you have any specific examples? I'm (unsurprisingly) less aware of WC details than Chris or Spooky would be.

Well, in some cases (Lion, Spider, Crab) a near-total degree of support for given Heir was the default position from the beginning... but no Clan began allocating 100% of their support to either heir.

However, unlike most real-world politics, a "winner take all" mentality led to more than one delegation doing precisely that, meaning a lot of clans burned bridges in their efforts to place their chosen Heir on the throne. When the more-extreme Phoenix (moving to 70/30 pro-Seiken from 60/40) have the most moderate point spread (matched by the 30/70 of the Imperials in the opposite direction), clearly, no delegation really hedged their bets. I'm mostly curious if this all-in support will be used as indicative of the wishes of their superiors, or if we're going to get a few scenes of say, Doji Makoto, rubbing his temples and counting to ten before speaking to his delegates...

I'm choosing to interpret the lack of official response re: Shimekiri as confirmation that he's going to be coming back.

Maybe

Shiba Gunichi wrote:

Daigotsu Max wrote:

Shiba Gunichi wrote:

To what extent will the increased partisanship of the delegations at Winter Court be considered Clan policy, as opposed to the Champion pinching the bridge of his or her nose and going "next time I'm sending someone who understands the perils of putting all of their eggs in a single basket"?

Would you have any specific examples? I'm (unsurprisingly) less aware of WC details than Chris or Spooky would be.

Well, in some cases (Lion, Spider, Crab) a near-total degree of support for given Heir was the default position from the beginning... but no Clan began allocating 100% of their support to either heir.

However, unlike most real-world politics, a "winner take all" mentality led to more than one delegation doing precisely that, meaning a lot of clans burned bridges in their efforts to place their chosen Heir on the throne. When the more-extreme Phoenix (moving to 70/30 pro-Seiken from 60/40) have the most moderate point spread (matched by the 30/70 of the Imperials in the opposite direction), clearly, no delegation really hedged their bets. I'm mostly curious if this all-in support will be used as indicative of the wishes of their superiors, or if we're going to get a few scenes of say, Doji Makoto, rubbing his temples and counting to ten before speaking to his delegates...

Ah, I see! Well, this might vary from Champion to Champion. But no Clan was ever 100% in favor of one heir or the other, despite (or in accordance with, in some cases) the wishes of their Champions. Plus the Champions will also have to move on and adapt - I mean, it wouldn't do to go 'oh noes you guy totally supported the wrong guy' when the wrong guy is on the throne.

As for clans going "100%" towards an heir that has to be interpreted a little loosely. Certainly, the people who were in court will likely be considered for reward or punishment depending on the clan and choice. But the whole clan is not represented by the few people in court no matter how much we would wish it to be so.

That said do not be surprised if you see certain clans working hard to get out from under the shadow of a bad decision.

_________________C Thomas HandShi-Tien Yen-Wang at WC IV*Doji Azai*BackHand*Team Stella*AthosL5R Story Team*L5R RPG Team"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em."

It's this card: the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei. It was recovered from the City of the Lost and given to the Empress by Katsutoshi when we last saw it. Now, it's in the hand of the Spider Clan and is used as their Ancestral Sword, whereas Seiatsu, the sword the Unicorn had made for the Spider Clan as Ancestral Sword (as per a story prize), is used as a token of the alliance between the two clans.

But there was no fiction that showed the handing over of the Hantei sword.

Going forward, what will make the Spider a coherent aspect of the setting? Their role as perpetual pariahs stretching the borders of social acceptance is a given but what do you want to do with the established foundation of roughly 30 years of story time? What will help make the Spider clan not just functional, but sensical as a unit of culture and society that to many seem antithetical to the very ideas of culture and society?

_________________Assistant GM @ WC II / Yamazaki @ WC III / Daigotsu Tsubaki @ WC IV"I do not care whether I am evil... I care only that the world is left stronger and more beautiful than when I arrived."-Daigotsu Tsubaki

Going forward, what will make the Spider a coherent aspect of the setting? Their role as perpetual pariahs stretching the borders of social acceptance is a given but what do you want to do with the established foundation of roughly 30 years of story time? What will help make the Spider clan not just functional, but sensical as a unit of culture and society that to many seem antithetical to the very ideas of culture and society?

Well, I could see the Spider being the experimental anti-establishment artists of Rokugan. The punk rockers.

@Max, what would you say the stereotypical view of the Spider is like to the different Clans? In the RPG all the Clans would give their opinions on each other, but what do they all feel about their youngest siblings?

Last edited by Fudo4Life on Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

@Max, what would you say the stereotypical view of the Spider is like to the different Clans? In the RPG all the CLans would give their opinions on each other, but what do they all feel about their youngest siblings?

I've been accused of having Kageto being somehow involved in getting Babymetal brought to Rokugan, but I think if he played the biwa it'd be more like the Yoshida Brothers.

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