I've got a wife that graduated with the first victim's father, a 17-yr old daughter asking questions, a 14 yr-old who plays volleyball with the first victim's cousin and an 11 yr old whose teacher was in tears because they grew up there and have family that teach at the high school wondering if they were okay.

And I have a fairly solid idea what journalistic integrity and ethics were at one time.

But by all means, let me tell them not to concern themselves with it.

Let me take the advice of a 40yr old single, childless guy who lives 800 miles away and compares it (and everything else) to the NBA and a guy who tells me turn off the TV, the computer, phones and let it pass.

e0y2e3 wrote:Damn, it may be my birthday, but that is some crazy agin I just went through (and the Heat Index thing was a joke).

Point is, we made the media what they are and they aren't changing. Bitching about it is even dumber than watching it.

Person on person interaction is about the best you can do. The fact that the media is effecting you in any way in this is silly, you're capable of rising above.

And again, the media is just going to keep on covering this one till the next asshole gets the idea to do the same.

It's a self-fullfilling prophecy combining with bitching about fact.

Just not sure I get your position here, sorry about those around you impacted and I am sure that sucks, not sure how bitching about the fucks on TV makes it any better or worse.

Nope. My fault. I apologize.

Just a lot of stuff going on with this. When it affects my kids it gets personal. And kids are inquisitive when their friends and family are affected and there's no way I can turn them off of this stuff completely.

Like I said, a lot of stuff swirling through the head and haven't straightened it out myself yet and not sure I can be anything other than Sybil on this.

It disappoints me to no end when journalists and the media seek to create a story as opposed to report it, when they interject themselves as a part of it, when they publish the name of a 17 year old minor irresponsibly and when they stick microphones in the face of kids who just walked through that shit and have no idea how to process their thoughts either.

It disappoints me that there are people that live for events like this to lift their Q rating or hope it bumps their sweeps week books.

The fact I'm not watching it doesn't mean it's not happening. The media reaction and lessons are a few steps below the other lessons but these are teachable moments for each of my kids.

Telling me to turn it off is no different than people incessantly bitching about the Browns and turning the game on every Sunday. Don't come here, don't complain about the talent level or coaching, don't bitch about any of it. Never criticize it. Just turn it off and ignore it.

Here's the bottom line: if I can teach my kids about being more aware of their surroundings and I can teach them that no reaction in that cafeteria situation is the worst reaction then my kids don't necessarily have to out run the gunman if such a horrific event ever occurs at their school. Hopefully they'll be okay or safer (percentage-wise) if they just out run your less prepared kid.

And with a daughter whose interested in pursuing her writing like I was, I'm not going to be quiet about what I perceive is a worsening state of media either. There are ways to carry yourself professionally and respectfully regardless of the 19Action News method of 'reporting'.

Seriously, people obsessing over this shit leads to more coverage which leads to more movies (I think Elephant was the last of the Columbine movies) and more kids get shitty ideas planted in their heads.

Bow your head for the dead and move on. Christ, do we ever learn anything?

eye do you really believe that today's relentless coverage of these kind of events (and eventual movies of such) really plays into supplanting minds of kids in this age group, and harbor similar ideas and thoughts?

I'm seriously asking, b/c I think that ties into desensitizing to a degree and any role desensitizing might play in this type of actions.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

There is a lot of mystery surrounding my actual Birthday. My step-mother is the only one to actually come out and tell me I was actually born on leap year, but my mother infered something similar nonetheless. I'm still trying to sort it all out, I'm either real young or not happy about aging.

"Here's the bottom line: if I can teach my kids about being more aware of their surroundings and I can teach them that no reaction in that cafeteria situation is the worst reaction then my kids don't necessarily have to out run the gunman if such a horrific event ever occurs at their school. Hopefully they'll be okay or safer (percentage-wise) if they just out run your less prepared kid."

^ that is perfection

And I don't think the media/movies cause it to happen FUDU, but I think when you sensationalize situations like this for years and with consistent reaction fucked up assholes are more likely to both get the idea and two decide they want to go out with a media explosion as well. It's almost a reward for psychopath-suicide.

FUDU wrote:While there is truly no silver linings in this, it sounds as if his targets were intended and not random, I would think that would be better for trying to understand this specific shooting.

Props to the kids that have been heard speaking to the media, they seem to have really kept themselves together in all this.

According to the prosecutor, TJ fired at random and fid not know the students he shot. I find that hard to believe considering one of the students was dating TJ's ex girlfriend, and from othe eye witness accounts, he was specifically targetting students.

And to top it off were the copycats today around NE Ohio schools with the bomb threats, etc.

Well...Lane and the prosecutor both said no kids were targeted specifically, that drugs weren't an issue and that he wasn't bullied. So there's all of that.

We'll see. I do know that the media are bitching about access to victims and information being made available to them.

Fuck those parasitic assholes. It doesn't stop three networks from combining for thirty hours of televised guessing and bullshit yesterday.

The gun story will now come front and center since their bullying theory has just been shot to shit.

Prior to lawyering up, TJ sang a different tune to police about being bullied[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2PvsLi9ooM&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/youtube]

peeker643 wrote:But I don't understand why the prosecutor would be so quick to accept and forward that.

Whatever. At this point I've hit the saturation mark. There are three dead kids. Not really concerned about the one in custody today.

I agree with you about the prosecutor. I found that odd too. The only thing I can think of for why they quickly accepted it is that there is no solid way to 100 percent prove that he targeted those kids. So the prosecutor wants a swift and easy convictions with zero loop holes.

I am still numb from the whole situation, and I cannot imagine how you and Lisa feel with kids that age and being much much closer to the situation.

Hopefully some good will come out of this (people being saved from the organs donated by the deceased, parents/kids being more aware of what may seem like trivial facebook/twitter posts like the one TJ posted in December,

I think it's sad when a shooting occurs in an inner city school, it's on the news 5 minutes. But if it happens somewhere else, it's on the news for days. Not that it shouldn't be, but aren't they both as tragic?

Spin wrote:I think it's sad when a shooting occurs in an inner city school, it's on the news 5 minutes. But if it happens somewhere else, it's on the news for days. Not that it shouldn't be, but aren't they both as tragic?

Spin wrote:I think it's sad when a shooting occurs in an inner city school, it's on the news 5 minutes. But if it happens somewhere else, it's on the news for days. Not that it shouldn't be, but aren't they both as tragic?

Aaaand this is where ethe thread takes the turn ion 3..2...1..

See yal later.

Why. It's fucking Spin. You think he's really sad about what he says he's sad about in in the first place? I don't think he gives a shit either way other than saying something incendiary that provides him attention.

There's something deep and profound by alluding to the fact inner city schools are less funded and attended to by kids that grow up in more violent areas?

When violence occurs in areas known for greater violence how is that more shocking than when it happens in "idyllic, white bread, middle America"?

It's not more important. It's more 'shocking'. It's 'better and bigger' news. Same reason a murder in Greenwich is 'bigger' news than a murder in the Bronx.

Maybe we can put his hypothesis to the test when 3 kids are shot and killed at Shaw or Glenville cafeterias and the media doesn't talk about it.

Tired of taboos. Tired of racial inferences. Run if you want. That's part of the problem IMO.

ETA: bothers me when intelligent people and people I respect would rather avoid a subject than reasonably discuss it. Not calling you out specifically JB, but I respect you, your intelligence and your world view. Not letting some attention seeking poster with a history of that kind of crap limit the discussion. If Spin wants to throw it out there, giggle at the turd he dropped in the hallway and run, that's fine. If he wants to talk about it that's fine too.

My guess is there will be limited depth in regard to his thoughts on the topic.

While you're most certainly correct that there aren't a lot of examples of ICSS I guess I should rephrase to be more accurate. Inner city school violence. While it gets attention, you can feel the giant sigh from the media in the "here we go again" sense, and it is quickly reported and pushed aside.

Now is there a different type of ICSV, that doesn't involve the mass/random shooting angle, not totally sure, but I wouldn't discount it.

IMO big big difference in general between attention given and shock value.

But we already know if you're not shocked at what does/might take place in an inner city school you are instantly labeled into a convenient box.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:But we already know if you're not shocked at what does/might take place in an inner city school you are instantly labeled into a convenient box.

Realist?

Economist?

Sociologist?

Maybe me, you and Spin should walk down to 30th and Union and kick this thing around with the residents?

There are violuent areas in many communities. I'll give Spin's spin some serious thought when a Chardon-like event goes down in one of those areas and is suppressed and ignored and deemed any less tragic.

FUDU wrote:But we already know if you're not shocked at what does/might take place in an inner city school you are instantly labeled into a convenient box.

Realist?

Economist?

Sociologist?

Maybe me, you and Spin should walk down to 30th and Union and kick this thing around with the residents?

There are violuent areas in many communities. I'll give Spin's spin some serious thought when a Chardon-like event goes down in one of those areas and is suppressed and ignored and deemed any less tragic.

Isn't there an awesome little deli/sub shop down there? If so I'm game.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:But we already know if you're not shocked at what does/might take place in an inner city school you are instantly labeled into a convenient box.

Realist?

Economist?

Sociologist?

Maybe me, you and Spin should walk down to 30th and Union and kick this thing around with the residents?

There are violuent areas in many communities. I'll give Spin's spin some serious thought when a Chardon-like event goes down in one of those areas and is suppressed and ignored and deemed any less tragic.

You mean you won't give a half-assed, off the cuff theory serious thought until it is backed up with actual evidence or examples? Dick.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Spin wrote:We've seen shootings in and around schools that got 5-10 minutes play. Why is this different, is the loss of life less tragic if you're on the wrong side of the tracks?

I guess running EMS just gives m a different perspective on things. Pulling bodies out of a Youngstown school is no easier for me than if I were in Chardon. Or Columbine. Or Virginia Tech.

It's all a matter of perspective I guess. Sorry for the incursion.

First of all, when's the last time you pulled multiple bodies out of any school? And when's the last time any of them were dead. When's the last call you were on when multiple fatality or critical victims were on scene and those injuries/deaths were caused by a juvenile walking into the school and unloading his weapon a couple times?

And it's not less tragic Spin. It's less 'shocking'. There's a huge difference. Someone wants to piant that with their brush dipped in grey shaded racist colors feel free. It's not racist. It's reality. Which in and of itself is tragic.

Which of these shootings that ended in multiple deaths and injuries got 5-10 minutes of play? Be happy to concede your point on that if you show me.

And let's also consider the impact that this has being so local. Even Columbine, while 'worse' had less legs right here than the Chardon situation because people here know the people involved.

Deleted the last three posts, including mine. I left CDT's because he's awesome and he amuses me...

Ain't a look at me/look at him thread. Won't become one either.

Spin, ya wanna pontificate start your own board and send out invites. Likewise, if ya wanna shit in the punch bowl and then go the 'why ya picking on me' route then, again, do it somewhere else. You want to post your thoughts and back 'em up with reason, thought, humor, anything of any substance, feel free.

You can start by answering the questions and providing the information about all the kids you pulled outta schools in Youngstown. You want a pissing contest then it'll be your last post so make it a memorable one.

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:For a bunch of educated guys you all know less about mental health issues than CDT does about pizza....

Do any of you know 20% of Americans have mental health issues ?

Were any of you aware of or care that about 15 yrs agao 80% of the federal budget monies dedicated to mental health was spent on Aids research?

Awareness

Its not just for the victims.....

Stamp out the stigma and remember... you and/or your kids are only a breath away from being struck down with a mental health affliction

Take from someone whose son was smited with schitzophrenia at 19 and has a professional peer whose son gunned down a teacher at a school dance when he was in 8th grade

You'll bury your hate in a heartbeat

Take it FWIW

It's weird. This kid may end up a psychopath and he may not, but he's a strange case. Most of the time the killer ain't alive afterward. He either shoots himself or allows some cop the horror of killing him and seeing it for the rest of his life, but this kid did neither.

He shot 5 kids, one of them four times, a couple of them twice. 10 shots total. He did not do much missing in a chaotic environment if my math is right. Yet he ultimately walked out the door and then turned himself in peacefully to some people on the street.

Initial anger and hatred aside, after you hear about his fucked up father and his fucked up mother and his fucked up brother and his fucked up school situation and his fucked up living arrangements, well, I can' harbor the hatred for the kid that I did two days ago.

Not because you say this stuff above but because it just doesn't make much sense to me that a kid like this ever had a chance. I don't know if he's mentally ill or not (clinically anyway) but there's a part of me I really hate that feels for this little fuck head.

On another note; The Parmertor kid's mom works at Hillcrest where my wife Lisa works. She's only been there three years and doesn't have much time off built up. The main man at Hillcrest (and I can't remember his name despite hearing it whenever I'm on hold there) donated a week or so of his paid time off (PTO) to her PTO bank and has permitted anyone who wants to do so to do so. There are rules and regs around it but the issue being she has no need for flowers or casseroles or anything else right now. What she needs is time. And the Clinic is allowing others to provide it to her which I think is about as cool as it gets.

I do know that if it was me, God forbid, in that situation, I'd never remember a flower arrangement, if you came to the wake, a card or anything else. I don't know how that ever goes away, if it goes away or if/when you ever start feeling normal again or just change forever your definition of normal.

BTW, FMB- Very cool you guys going down to Akron this weekend. Hope it does some good. Also hope your son is right as rain with the proper meds and care.

peeker643 wrote:Deleted the last three posts, including mine. I left CDT's because he's awesome and he amuses me...

Ain't a look at me/look at him thread. Won't become one either.

Spin, ya wanna pontificate start your own board and send out invites. Likewise, if ya wanna shit in the punch bowl and then go the 'why ya picking on me' route then, again, do it somewhere else. You want to post your thoughts and back 'em up with reason, thought, humor, anything of any substance, feel free.

You can start by answering the questions and providing the information about all the kids you pulled outta schools in Youngstown. You want a pissing contest then it'll be your last post so make it a memorable one.

I'll search more when I get home tomorrow, but this was back in 94, 95. I remember there was 60 homicides in Ytown that year making it second to Gary, In for most per capita. Its not quite that bad before. Al I can find so far is articles from Chardon, and a few about the frat house shootings last year at YSU.

Whatever th questions were, they're gone now. I worked for Pellin EMS which had a contract with the city, Boardman, and several townships to provide EMS. Our Youngstown staion was on Mahoning Rd near downtown. Southside Hospital had just moved to Boardman (beighly), and Youngstown Osteopathic was still open. Maybe that gives a better time frame What else?

Youngstown had three TV stations and they were up our ass every time somone wrecked their car or beat the hell out ofth someone else. And the story of the school shooting wasn't all that big, I don't even remember it being on out-of-town news.

Spin wrote:We've seen shootings in and around schools that got 5-10 minutes play. Why is this different, is the loss of life less tragic if you're on the wrong side of the tracks?

I guess running EMS just gives m a different perspective on things. Pulling bodies out of a Youngstown school is no easier for me than if I were in Chardon. Or Columbine. Or Virginia Tech.

It's all a matter of perspective I guess. Sorry for the incursion.

First of all, when's the last time you pulled multiple bodies out of any school? And when's the last time any of them were dead. When's the last call you were on when multiple fatality or critical victims were on scene and those injuries/deaths were caused by a juvenile walking into the school and unloading his weapon a couple times?

And it's not less tragic Spin. It's less 'shocking'. There's a huge difference. Someone wants to piant that with their brush dipped in grey shaded racist colors feel free. It's not racist. It's reality. Which in and of itself is tragic.

Which of these shootings that ended in multiple deaths and injuries got 5-10 minutes of play? Be happy to concede your point on that if you show me.

And let's also consider the impact that this has being so local. Even Columbine, while 'worse' had less legs right here than the Chardon situation because people here know the people involved.

This is what I asked based on what you wrote, Spin. The inference being you pulled bodies (plural) out of a Youngstown school. The inference also being there were shootings in schools that got no play in the media.

I don't believe that's the case. School shootings anywhere tend to make big headlines and national news be it in Paducah, Columbine, Chardon or Success Tech down in the inner city.

Not looking to get in a pissing contest but when people don't have links or docs to back up something like that that's going to incite people it looks a lot like posting for effect and to get a reaction.

I wish someone would honestly kick the living shit out of this pathetic excuse for a "Human Being".

If I were the brother of Daniel, I'd have to be restrained on sight of these sub-humans.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Whoever put that page together has their shit straight. Well thought out and rational. Turn your backs to these fuckwipes and honor your community, your friends and your dead.

Me? I cannot wait for the day when one of these pieces of shit get shanked, curb stomped or beaten to death while hurling their insults and hate.

Hypocritical? Maybe. But Chardon ain't all that removed from it's red-neck days. The hate mongerers offend the wrong Billy Hill and they'll pay for it with, at the very least, their teeth or their orbital bones or, should they really hit the genetic lottery, far, far worse.

peeker643 wrote:Whoever put that page together has their shit straight. Well thought out and rational. Turn your backs to these fuckwipes and honor your community, your friends and your dead.

Me? I cannot wait for the day when one of these pieces of shit get shanked, curb stomped or beaten to death while hurling their insults and hate.

Hypocritical? Maybe. But Chardon ain't all that removed from it's red-neck days. The hate mongerers offend the wrong Billy Hill and they'll pay for it with, at the very least, their teeth or their orbital bones or, should they really hit the genetic lottery, far, far worse.

I feel bad, because it's against my faith to be this rageful against a group of people. But I'm in the same boat.

You know it's bad when the KKK hates your ass.

I'd go and pitch in, if not for work. I'd be more than willing to toss a few dollars towards this effort though. I also, would like to suggest that maybe WNIR or another radio station should offer them an hour of their time so they don't do this. Perhaps, even referring listeners to listen to another station during that time period. First time that would occur in history.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

peeker643 wrote:First of all, when's the last time you pulled multiple bodies out of any school? And when's the last time any of them were dead. When's the last call you were on when multiple fatality or critical victims were on scene and those injuries/deaths were caused by a juvenile walking into the school and unloading his weapon a couple times?

And it's not less tragic Spin. It's less 'shocking'. There's a huge difference. Someone wants to piant that with their brush dipped in grey shaded racist colors feel free. It's not racist. It's reality. Which in and of itself is tragic.

Which of these shootings that ended in multiple deaths and injuries got 5-10 minutes of play? Be happy to concede your point on that if you show me.

And let's also consider the impact that this has being so local. Even Columbine, while 'worse' had less legs right here than the Chardon situation because people here know the people involved.

This is what I asked based on what you wrote, Spin. The inference being you pulled bodies (plural) out of a Youngstown school. The inference also being there were shootings in schools that got no play in the media.

I don't believe that's the case. School shootings anywhere tend to make big headlines and national news be it in Paducah, Columbine, Chardon or Success Tech down in the inner city.

Not looking to get in a pissing contest but when people don't have links or docs to back up something like that that's going to incite people it looks a lot like posting for effect and to get a reaction.

If not then I'm misreading what I'm seeing.

Peace.

This all happened in the early 90's, before news was splashed all over the internet. Before citizens even HAD the internet. So, I guess it didn't happen. Same with the Mansfield steel mill riot that I was elbow deep in. No link, never happened.

That was the only situation I was involved in in a school, at Rayen High. It resulted from a fight (maybe one reason it was not that big a deal). You can believe me, or not. Nothing I can do about it either way. I remember shootings in and around Cleveland city schools that didn't have this affect on the media.

The whole thing is, if one of 8 or 10 posters had put that message up, there would havee been some ball busting, and some honest discussion. I did, and there's threats, and one or two who actually wanted to discuss it. Out of the 10 or 12 forums I frequent (this is the only one covering Cleveland sports), this is the only one I get called a troll or baiter. Whatever I did several years ago to put a target on my back, I don't know what it was. Case in point, another anti-racism post gets put up, good conversation follows. That's all this was. I'm a mod on four forums and would not have threatened to ban someone for that.

Anyway, maybe it's socioeconomic, maybe it's racism. Maybe it's more and more the news being more entertainment than actual news. Maybe there are just so many news outlets now there's competition between them. I don't know. Whatever it is, I wish I hadn't brought it up.

If these events occurred before the internet and before media outlets had such a competitive internet presence, then how is that apples and apples? How you going to compare the two eras?

It's like telling me that the coverage of Pelielu and Bataan paled in comparison to the footage and attention paid to Fallujah and Baghdad. It's not comparable.

Go back as far as the internet age and find me the times when inner city schools have been shot up and ignored. Apples to apples. Because my opinion is you did a drive by and are back pedaling. And if you moderate four forums then you should understand how that perception exists based on your original entry.

I stand by what I said. I have no issue discussing this with you in an intelligent, insightful, humorous, reasonable way even from opposite sides of an argument. But I have no interest in the drive-by stuff that's done for nothing more than one's own entertainment in a thread like this.

That's my perception of it. If I'm way off base or out of line others can tell me so right here or via PM.

But I'm not taking away from what the thread was started for. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand that this issue hits a little closer to home for some people here. You want to address media inadequacies in the time and attention paid to school shootings and whether there's a racial component to it then feel free to start that thread and discuss it there.

Spin wrote:This all happened in the early 90's, before news was splashed all over the internet. Before citizens even HAD the internet. So, I guess it didn't happen. Same with the Mansfield steel mill riot that I was elbow deep in. No link, never happened.

That was the only situation I was involved in in a school, at Rayen High. It resulted from a fight (maybe one reason it was not that big a deal). You can believe me, or not. Nothing I can do about it either way. I remember shootings in and around Cleveland city schools that didn't have this affect on the media.

Here is a link it took me 2 minutes to find to a newspaper article from 1980.

I'm sure if I can find this so quickly, you can find a link to an article from the mid 90s when a student was randomly executed in a high school but it was largely ignored due the location of the school and the race of the victim.

And, if you honestly can't understand the difference between a steel mill riot, a teenager shooting another teenager he had a beef with "in and around" a school, and a lunatic walking into a school cafateria and executing 3 students by shooting them in the back of the head as they sit waiting for a bus in full view of numerous other students...well, I then I don't know how to make you understand.

Must be race, though. That's it. The media just ignores all of the random shooter executions in schools that have frequently happened in the inner city schools. Like that one time you might remember from 17 years ago.