Thursday, September 01, 2016

Dale Yeager: Patsy killed JonBenét Ramsey because she was "losing control of her daughter"

The following is a transcript from WROW Radio, The Dave Lucas Radio Show, Albany, NY, January 30, 1999

DAVE LUCAS: On line we have Dale Yeager, the executive director of SERAPH. Hello Mr. Yeager. Welcome to the program.
DALE YEAGER: Hi, how are you?
DAVE LUCAS: Very Good. Mr. Yeager has been involved in the training of
law enforcement officers in "less than lethal" tactics for more than ten
years. He's a trained criminal analyst who's consulted on more than 130
criminal cases - including the murder investigation of JonBenét Ramsey.
Now, you were hired by the Boulder Police Department. Tell us about
that.
DALE YEAGER: I was hired by the district attorney’s office to work with
the investigative team. Originally we were asked to do an analysis of
the ransom note and then in the spring of last year we were asked to
write a psychological profile on Patsy Ramsey.
Excuse me for being bold but I've been sitting here listening to this
now for three hours. I am one of the few people, my team of people are
one of the few people that actually worked on this case. We are not
reading things in the newspaper, we are not getting things off of CNN. I
had information to do my work that none of these guests had -- and
these theories are just... I'm blown away by this.
DAVE LUCAS: There are some ???? theories aren't they?
DALE YEAGER: You know there's a lot of "wanna be experts" out there and
it really disgusts me that this case has become a magnet would like to
theorize in an area they have no right to be in. I have done this for 10
years. I've worked on cases like this before and some of these theories
have no basis in reality. I think that your listeners need to
understand that there's significant, some significant issues here that
need to be dealt with and some issues here that affect our society as a
whole and I just think that needs to be brought out.
DAVE LUCAS: Well, who killed JonBenét Ramsey?

DALE YEAGER: Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter.
DAVE LUCAS: What evidence do you have to support that?
DALE YEAGER: The evidence is very clear. Patsy Ramsey is a sociopath.
There are basically two types of people who commit violent acts. There
are sociopaths and psychopaths. A sociopath is a person who is very
controlling. A sociopath is a person that must be in charge at all
times. They pick someone in their life to control, or multiple people to
control. When they can no longer control that individual, they lash out
at them - either by isolating them out of their life - more than likely
killing them. OJ Simpson is a sociopath and it's not very hard to
understand the basic motive behind this murder. The problem is that all
the so-called "experts" we heard tonight who get all their media
attention really are using logic to understand an illogical act. We have
a woman here who has been immersed in a subculture of religious fervor-
that has never been brought out as far as the motivation here. She is a
religious delusional sociopath and it would take me literally six hours
to explain to - to commit to people how that works. The bottom line is
that her daughter was growing up and becoming more independent. The
bedwetting was part of that... different thingss that... anyone could
read the newspaper... you could see there was a split between her and
her daughter.
DAVE LUCAS: Let me ask you, what about the sexual abuse?
DALE YEAGER: There's... You know what? Let me tell you something. First
of all, autoerotic asphyxiation ... there... if you talk to child abuse
experts, the occurence of that with an adult on a child, there are no
cases of that. Show me a case where that has happened involving a child.
Normally it is done in a solo act of masturbation -- or it has been
done with couples...
[SNIP]
DALE YEAGER: OK - the bottom line is that the motivation for killing a
child is very simple - either jealousy, control, sex or rage. It's not
that difficult - this isn't brain surgery we are talking about here. We
have a woman who is very controlling. We have a woman here who has shown
signs of violence in the past -- it's not that difficult to see the
connection here. When her daughter starts becoming more aggressive,
becoming more independent and she lashes out at her. You know these
elaborate theories that have been perpetuated by people who really have a
financial interest in the case more than anything else....
CALLER: Have you ever seen a religious delusion murder situation which involved an elaborate cover-up like this one was?
DALE YEAGER: One of my specialties, one of the things that we do a lot
of with murder cases, are murder cases that involve people who are
using... who have committed an act of violence or murder with some kind
of religious motivation whether it be ritualistic.. something like that.
As far as "elaborate cover-up, I will agree that the ransom note is the
central key feature to the evidence in this case. It certainly hasn't
been given the attention that it deserves. You know, as far as "coded
messages" are concerned, I find that kind of ironic since the ransom
note itself is poorly written. It's obviously written in haste. It's
written by someone who has limited knowledge of grammar if nothing else.
As far as the religious motivation is concerned, you can look at
Patsy's writings, you can look at her involvement with the charismatic
movement, and you add to that a near death experience like having.....
cancer. You add to that her sociopathic tendencies and you get a fairly
scary individual, you get a violent individual. I just think people need
to understand this is more common than just this case. People do have
religious delusions and they take things out of context. We've always
believed that the 118 was related to scripture that showed up in many of
her writings and ....
Pardon me?
Caller: I know that people sometimes kill their children in a brief
delusional state, a brief psychotic episode. You don't see it as that.
What evidence do you have that she is sociopathic?
DALE YEAGER: Well, a sociopath is very easy to define - a sociopath is a
person that likes to control the situation, they like to control the
people around them. Their opinion is the only one that matters. They
tend to be very aggressive verbally. They tend to be very aggressive
physically. When they are attacked, they become the victim, "poor
pitiful me". They are kind of a chameleon in a social setting. They are
usually leaders, the type of person who takes charge in a situation. And
then you add to the fact that she comes from a southern culture.... and
that's a whole other aspect... women in southern cultures... you know,
the.. the whole aspect of women being reared in southern cultures where
protecting your family by lying, protecting your family by any means is
something almost genetically drilled into that subculture. There's a lot
of aspects to this but the bottom line is it's a very common crime - a
child being killed by their parents, especially the mother. You look at
her past, you look at her personality, the evidence is there that she's
committed this crime. My job as a profiler with investigative teams is
to give them some kind of an idea of motivation. The motivation here is
somewhat simple but it has some complicated aspects to it. And mainly
it's this feeling that we believe she felt she was going to die and she
started to see a need for a sacrifice that she had to make and the
murder of her daughter becomes a sacrifice. You can't understand those
kinds of motivations with logical thought. Everyone's coming at this
tonight from a very forensics perspective and I have a great deal of
reapect for forensic scientists, a very important part of solving
crimes, but there are other aspects to trying to figure out motive than
just forensics.
LANCE MATTHEWS: Evidence of stun gun or TAZER - any... is that crap??
DALE YEAGER: Well, look, I do not claim and never have claimed to be a
forensic expert. My responsibility in the investigation of a crime is to
assess motive, to research anomolies in that crime, and to provide
questions for the interview of suspects. So I just don't claim to be a
forensics person, at best it would be guessing. I do agree with your
current guest that's on with me, I'm sorry I forget your name, about the
series of events in regards to how the death occurred. I do agree with
that. I think that the evidence is very clear that that is how things
occurred.
But remember too, that strangulation is a very intimate type of crime.
There's two types of intimate crimes and that is strangulation and
stabbing someone with an edged weapon. So whenever you see that in a
murder scene, you know there was some kind of an intimate connection
between the two people - when that's the method of killing.
Strangulation or using an edged weapon. They're very intimate ways of
killing. There's enough evidence here to point to the people closest to
this poor young girl.
Program was interrupted.... problems at studio...
Apologies from DAVE LUCAS -
DALE YEAGER: Maybe it's an omen...
LANCE MATTHEWS: Where were we?
DALE YEAGER: We were talking about the method of the killing which really points to some specific motive in itself...
Caller from Albany suggesting making this a federal case.
DALE YEAGER: I think that the district attorney.... I finally quit and
said enough is enough. I refused to work anymore on the case. My partner
who wrote those reports with me agreed ... there were a lot of us who
left basically at the same time that Steve Thomas left. We'd had enough.
I think the district attorney - I think your caller is correct in the
sense that the district attorney I think has political aspirations and
this is my opinion, my personal opinion, I think he believes that is he
tries the case and loses it, that his political aspirations will go down
the drain similar to the district attorney in Los Angeles who lost the
OJ case. And I think that's why this incompetent investigation from the
district attorney's perspective. I think the police who have been
involved, the detectives who have been involved have been top notch and I
think they've tried to do their job but they've been hampered by a
district attorney who is more concerned about perception than doing the
job that he was hired to do.
CHARLES BOSWORTH: No, Hunter has no political aspirations - he is dead politically. "The DA has been bribed. Period."
No one really knew where John Ramsey had all his money - a bribe could be paid in the future.
"How much does the family have?
DALE YEAGER: There was quite a bit.
CHARLES BOSWORTH: How much?"
DALE YEAGER: I've been told 30 million... or 45....
CHARLES BOSWORTH: -- Is that all?
DALE YEAGER: What's that?
Have you checked the value of the stock lately?
DALE YEAGER: I don't know. I think the district attorney... there's a
possibility that that has occurred. I've heard some things to that, only
rumors. Because he stepped in front of a lot of bullets for the family
CHARLES BOSWORTH: We need a federal...
DALE YEAGER: I do agree with that assessment
Lance Matthews pointed out that Hal Haddon is multi-million dollar
partners with DA Alex Hunter -- talk about lax legal system in
Colorado...
DALE YEAGER:.... Someone has to step in and intervene in this case
because it has dragged on too long. I said before there are social
implications of this case on a national basis that I think no one has
really talked much about about. I think one of them is that there is a
lot of classism that has been brought to the surface because of this
case. I get a lot of people asking me - when I work out at the YMCA or
when I am at church - about the case. And invariably, as much as this is
an amateur survey, invariably, white wealthy women will say to me, "I
can't perceive that happening. Why... how can a mother kill her
daughter?" And I will always say to them, "Well, if she was Black or
Hispanic, would you feel the same way?" And they ALWAYS say, "Well, no.
That happens in that society."
LANCE MATTHEWS: "Let's go to Patsy's origins - let's go with Southern women."
DALE YEAGER: This is an subject that will probably annoy certain
listeners but try to understand it from a criminal analysis perspective.
Our culture, American culture, is really made up of a lot of
subcultures. For example, I am Pennsylvania Dutch. My family has been in
Pennysylvania since 1703 and that's a subculture and there are certain
norms about that subculture. One of the things we know about Southern
culture is that women in Southern cultures, with exceptions but for the
most part, are raised in a very specific way. And one of the things that
the Justice Department, where I received my training, did a stuDale
Yeager of this and found that there is a... what is called a sociopathic
tendency to childrearing as it relates to women in Southern culture. I
know this sounds bizarre but is very real and the best way to explain
that is the case of the woman in Texas several years ago who attempted
or did kill the girl who took her daughter's spot on the cheerleading
team. If you remember that case..
LANCE MATTHEWS: I remember that one.
DALE YEAGER: When she was interviewed by detectives, she said, "I was
taught by my mother that you protect your family at all costs." And we
call it "The Cult of the Family". James Dobson is probably the greatest
perpetuator of this "The Cult of the Family".
The family is more important than anything else and it becomes an
obsession.And so these woman of the southern culture are taught that
lying to protect your family, doing illegal acts or unethical things is
part of your process of being a mom.

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