After another 3 hours of talking in circles, I ask him what he told himself to make it ok to walk up to her and ask her to meet him after work. He comes out with this little gem "I didn't see her as a girl". Really?? I said "she has a vagina, there's no way to get around that and that makes her a girl". So I text him a few hours later saying how insulting I found his excuse. At dinner last night he tries to say that I misunderstood his meaning. That not seeing her as a girl means he doesn't find her sexually attractive... I said, so if you aren't attracted to a female, you see her as a male? He got mad and said I pick apart everything he says and I wonder why he doesn't offer details. I offered him an easy out...I said you can admit you said it because you couldn't think of anything better on the spot and we'll both laugh it off and forget it. He refused the offer and just kept digging his hole deeper. And he said it all with a straight face! You see, he forgets that he told me the reason for listing her as security (she's not even in that department) as her contact name is because he was so uncomfortable with a female employee texting him.
Am I being too hard on him? It sounds like bs to me. I've been married to the man for 17 years and never knew he saw women like this. He should have boundaries because they are women...regardless if they are attractive or not.

Posts: 953 | Registered: Jul 2013

rachelc♀ 30314Member # 30314

Posted: 6:03 AM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

yes, he should have boundaries!
I received the EXACT SAME THING - when hubby bought his secretary a gift on our anniversary but not me - he doesnt' think of her as a woman. WTH? Does it matter? And I also received the "I guess I shouldn't tell you these things then" speech. It makes me wonder if ANYTHING is being accomplished in his IC sessions.
hugs!

his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Take action to change what needs changing. Take action to respond to your situation. Let the discouragement take ca

Posts: 6416 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest

blakesteele♂ 38044Member # 38044

Posted: 6:09 AM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

He got mad and said I pick apart everything he says and I wonder why he doesn't offer details.

This is the kicker about lying....you have to remember details that change each time you talk about them!

If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -- Mark Twain.

Adultery is just the fruit of a vine that was planted years ago and tended to since then. Call it FOO issues, habits, coping mechanisms....whatever. What I am observing is people that choose adultery as an option are deceptive. Not saying intentional liers...it can and usually is more subtle than that. They appear to want to control life...so they manipulate their relationships. They choose what to reveal and how to reveal it very carefully. If the truth has a good chance of upsetting some perceived balance in their mind, they choose to NOT speak it.

This is not the only reason a person chooses adultery, but I believe without this ability adultery would be a very tough choice.

Look, we are all flawed. We are all dishonest in some fashion. But their is some sort of threshold a person crosses to choose adultery....and it has nothing to do with the BS.

Your husbands putting you as the reason for NOT sharing details is....bogus. I believe this is his attempt at seeing just how much of his old, comfortable habits he can bring with him into your new M. You are saying to him, through your engagement,.....NOT ON YOUR LIFE BUDDY! He is trying to control the situation....even though he is right on the heals of seeing how that is a vane attempt, he is still trying!

How do I state this so confidently?

Because over the past 16 months I have tried to bring some of my old unhealthy but comfortable patterns with me! God help me....I have.

Learning new habits, processing life instead of just coping with life....is hard uncomfortable work.

I am almost to the point where anything comfortable feels odd....and anything uncomfortable feels good. KWIM? I think this is one of the reasons I have an....OH SHIT....moment when my wife and I have a really good time together. I wonder if I have actually done something unhealthy, or maybe she has. TIME will tell. I do suspect sometime to feel comfortable and happy around my wife WITHOUT this second-guessing....but the pain is still great right now....but it is improving.

You guys are improving too. I know this was uncomfortable for you both, but I see it as real progress. You are breaking bad, unhealthy habits. Will your husband find the courage to do this completely enough for you to continue to offer R to him? That is what all BS ask themselves....

Gently....you do have a role in making your husband feel safe to share with you. You certainly don't have to agree with all of what he says, should not be abused in any way...but try and keep in mind he is uncomfortable too. IMHO, a WS is waaayyyy more uncomfortable with honesty then the BS was.....waaayyy more inclined to avoid conflict, and avoid lighter conflicts then a BS. Regardless, a WS has to step up and step up hard to repair the damage they have done.

It is my prayer that all WS become fWS and fully embrace all of the tasks and tend to all of the pain they caused through their decision to avoid pain at all cost. Not just damage to the BS...but the damage they have done to themselves.

I am a guy who notices women for women. I appreciate most womens bodies. I have many faults and lacked lots of boundaries....but learned early on that I needed boundaries with regards to women other than my wife. Took at least one other person with us if a female co-worker wanted to go to lunch, tried to have more than one co-worker on a project if it included a woman co-worker....and if that were not possible our meetings took place in public meeting rooms, left hospitality suites early at conferences, etc.

I mention all of this because pre-A blakesteele thought he was the only one that needed such boundaries in his marriage. Mrs. blakesteele did not. I actually encouraged her to find a running partner pre-A....did not the sex of that partner a moments thought. NEVER thought my wife would be tempted.....that was a MANS battle. Unfortunately, she shared this same view....and it cost us both dearly.

Boundaries In Marriage was a fantastic read....it pointed out other areas that were completely devoid of boundaries in blakesteeles life.

Boundaries do not limit freedom, they provide an opportunity to really be free and grow.

You can be an Olympic class swimmer, but without lanes and set distances....you will never know it. Those lane markers are boundaries that help you grow and complete yourself....they give you a point of reference, they ground you, they make you feel safe. You explore new areas when you feel safe...you have more courage to try new things when you feel safe.

Could you reframe what your H said as, 'I didn't see her as a potential sexual partner?' Then you could tell him to choose his words more carefully - but he still has to answer questions.

Really, we all say things stupidly - but I suspect WSes say things more stupidly than others do.

fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 70 (22 in my head), Married 45+, together since 1965, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
I'm not an exemplar. I share my own experience because it's all I know.

Posts: 11132 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area

Lyonesse♀ 32943Member # 32943

Posted: 9:47 AM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

Sisoon, perfectly put! WH constantly says things that don't make sense, and when I point it out, he then says, "But what I MEANT was...."

It's like he has developed a laziness of thought, where he never took the time to figure out what he thought - hence just any old shit dribbles out of his mouth. It is a major undertaking to point out his nonsense and ask him to rephrase it in a way that doesn't completely insult the intelligence of the listener.

God, he is trying, but after so many years, the stupid sticks hard.

Me: BS, 40's.

Posts: 1840 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: West Coast

cl131716♀ 40699Member # 40699

Posted: 10:01 AM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

My WH said, "OW? She's old! I'm not at ALL attracted to her!" after I asked him about an e-mail he sent to her about "her hot new look". A week later he got excited writing sexually explicit messages back and forth to her. Oh, and during the time he was searching things like older women dating younger men, MILFS, and Cougars. >.<

Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma

bionicgal♀ 39803Member # 39803

Posted: 10:02 AM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

My H had always said he viewed the AP (a friend) as like a "little sister." And really, I think that was true -- until it wasn't. I guess the moral is, that wolves can show up in sheeps' clothing, and one should be aware of changing feelings over someone. It is probably partly because they didn't look like "temptresses" that the affairs happened at all.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:03 AM, December 9th (Monday)]

me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

Posts: 2426 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA

meplusfour♀ 38958Member # 38958

Posted: 11:38 AM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

It's like he has developed a laziness of thought, where he never took the time to figure out what he thought - hence just any old shit dribbles out of his mouth. It is a major undertaking to point out his nonsense and ask him to rephrase it in a way that doesn't completely insult the intelligence of the listener.

Exactly!

BW (me)42
WH 44
3 daughters, 1 son
Married 10 years, together 13
DDay 3/14/2013, four year PA
In R
"Sometimes you have to accept the fact that certain things will never go back to the way they used to be."

Posts: 417 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Canada

Marathonwaseasy♀ 40674Member # 40674

Posted: 12:20 PM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

Boundaries. Boundaries
Fwh saw OW as his friend because she was nice to him. He was astounded that she wanted to have sex with him because he doesn't think he's attractive. Then he didn't want to lose his friend. She had been grooming him for ages and is a master at it. How did he miss the info re her reputation?
He knows now. No females friends unless they are my friends and friends of our marriage. And even then no time on his own with them.
How stupid are these WSs?

Gently....you do have a role in making your husband feel safe to share with you. You certainly don't have to agree with all of what he says, should not be abused in any way...but try and keep in mind he is uncomfortable too. IMHO, a WS is waaayyyy more uncomfortable with honesty then the BS was.....waaayyy more inclined to avoid conflict, and avoid lighter conflicts then a BS. Regardless, a WS has to step up and step up hard to repair the damage they have done.

This is my biggest challenge. He feels like I pick everything new he tells me apart and I can see why he would feel like that at times but how can I not question it? He feels like if I don't just accept whatever it is and I ask questions that I'm picking it apart. I ask questions because I'm confused and because it usually contradicts what he said a week before. He thinks I'm punishing him. We had one of the biggest fights ever tonight. I think I want to separate for awhile. I can't live like this anymore. thanks for your help blakesteel

Posts: 953 | Registered: Jul 2013

Scubachick♀ 39906Member # 39906

Posted: 11:39 PM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

Could you reframe what your H said as, 'I didn't see her as a potential sexual partner?' Then you could tell him to choose his words more carefully - but he still has to answer questions.

Good way to rephrase it! I'm sure that's what he meant but even then why even say it? Does that make him feel better about what he did? In my mind, any female, attractive or not, should not be a secret. And if he's not attracted to her, why keep it a secret in the first place?

Posts: 953 | Registered: Jul 2013

Scubachick♀ 39906Member # 39906

Posted: 11:40 PM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

God, he is trying, but after so many years, the stupid sticks hard.

LoL! That's so true!

Posts: 953 | Registered: Jul 2013

Scubachick♀ 39906Member # 39906

Posted: 11:43 PM, December 9th (Monday), 2013

Fwh saw OW as his friend because she was nice to him.

My husband won't even admit to being friends with her!! He said she's just an employee! I said so you take all your female employee's out in middle of the night? You share secrets with all them? He must think I'm an idiot.