I don't see why he wouldn't be one. Granted, his power is way below Goku's, but you have to remember that he didn't do the same training as Goku. Maybe he was on his way to becoming a mssj at the Cell games, or maybe he was one. What I do know is that he was not using his bulky stage, and he was not a regular Ssj.

. I dont think he didnt reach fpssj because he was incapable of doing so, he just didn't do what goku and gohan did ( because otherwise he'd be fpssj, and to argue for him being an fpssj is silly, since everyone knows he wasn't ).

Oh and majin doesn't give you an increase where you go from getting one shotted to being on par with someone.

Really? Since when are you a majin expert? Yamu and Spopovitch went from being weaker than Satan, to flying and shooting Ki blast. Not to mention Spopovitch survived injuries that would have kill any other normal human..That sounds like a huge increase to me.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a whileGoku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

I don't see why he wouldn't be one. Granted, his power is way below Goku's, but you have to remember that he didn't do the same training as Goku. Maybe he was on his way to becoming a mssj at the Cell games, or maybe he was one. What I do know is that he was not using his bulky stage, and he was not a regular Ssj.

Ok i know this is non canon, but in movie 8 Goku and Gohan were both fpssj (since gohan became both an ssj and fpssj in the same RoSaT trip) while Vegeta was a ussj. There was a big difference in appearance. Non-Canon, but the only thing we have to go off for now. Also, when Vegeta was fighting the Cell Jrs, he was much bulkier than his normal ssj.

Yamu and Spopovitch went from being weaker than Satan, to flying and shooting Ki blast. Not to mention Spopovitch survived injuries that would have kill any other normal human..That sounds like a huge increase to me.

It gave them the ability to control their ki. Someone able to control their ki >>>> someone who isnt, even without any real fighting skill. At the start of DB (when he meets Bulma) Gokus power level is only about 60-100, but he survives bullets, Oolongs axe, Yamchas wolf fang fist, and smashes bricks up with one finger. Most of those things would kill the average human, but Gokus saiyan ki gave him the ability to do all that without being hurt. The point is, you dont need to be super strong to survive those things.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a whileGoku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

It's pretty much stated that he did.

Firstly, when i checked chapter 458, this quote wasnt their, I think you got the chapter wrong. Secondly, you have to remember that this whole time, goku could go ssj3. He was 4x stronger than he was fighting as, so hes lieing when he says their even, therefore the next statement (you trained more than me) is probably wrong aswell, and just a compliment. You know how goku is :/And how did Vegeta know he did more special training, since he'd not seen Goku for 7 years? Vegetas idea of special training is Mr Briefs gravity chamber, which is much less intense than 7 years of other world, especially with a dead body that gives a big advantage to goku.Just something quick i'd like to ask you; do you think the multiplier for the ssj stages change depending on who uses the transformation? If not, how much less is vegetas base than Gokus in your opinion?

It gave them the ability to control their ki. Someone able to control their ki >>>> someone who isnt, even without any real fighting skill.

It's stated that they became a lot stronger.Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bitGoku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

. You know how goku is :/And how did Vegeta know he did more special training, since he'd not seen Goku for 7 years? Vegetas idea of special training is Mr Briefs gravity chamber, which is much less intense than 7 years of other world, especially with a dead body that gives a big advantage to goku.

Because it's stated?? Manga>>>>You...How do you even know What Goku did in the afterlife? We saw him meditating and using weights.Gravity Chamber>>Weights.

ust something quick i'd like to ask you; do you think the multiplier for the ssj stages change depending on who uses the transformation? If not, how much less is vegetas base than Gokus in your opinion?

I think all multipliers are the same. I think Vegeta is around 65% Of Goku...

Vegeta is bulkier as a ussj, alot of people still think he was a ussj, the majin thing was a joke and goku obviously did more than weights and meditation to get ssj2 and 3 in 7 years. Anyway, i think we should call this a day, its gone on long enough and i dont think we'll ever agree :/

I agree with Keinzan here. This has been debated for a long time, but yeah I ll correct some points ->

quote

Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Vegeta doesn't know about Goku's training. But his speech is as you say then it could be argued that due to Vegeta's ignorance on what Goku had achieved and did, that he would be under the false impression that Goku is more gifted when he isn't.

There are 2 guys - A and B

A - 100% in Maths, but he gets special education/tutoring.B - 80% in Maths, but he did it by himself.

The point is not who did better, the point in what circumstances/conditions.

A maybe better, but B has clearly more potential.

And, Goku achieved SSJ3 in other world with a heavenly body which gives you no stamina issues.