tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post5787216703333866916..comments2014-01-03T21:48:53.764-08:00Comments on Anglachel's Journal: Radical ChicAnglachelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01110546252851760414noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-62236698658444762012008-05-17T12:28:00.000-07:002008-05-17T12:28:00.000-07:00"Something I have been noticing in comments and bl..."Something I have been noticing in comments and blog posts in a variety of places are claims and curses about the radicals and extremists, the "far left" that allegedly infests the biosphere"<BR/><BR/>What I as a feminist am talking about is not the "far" left but the "male" left, the misogynist left, the sexist left which has never got it about the reality of woman's oppression. The male left who mouth feminism in order to gain our support so they can co-opt our organizations. <BR/><BR/>The Noam Chomsky male left who embrace Hamas and Hezbollah,the Muslim brotherhood and other thugs who actually slave and honor kill women. The misogynist left who call women Islamaphopes because they recognize a threat to their civil rights. The left who shouts down women on campus who try to discuss this.<BR/> <BR/>The male left who managed to go through the whole war without any relief organizing for women in AF or Iraq. Who only lied about their condition to bolster their antiwar campaigns. <BR/><BR/>The male left who has exposed their sexism with the tactics they have used in this campaign. <BR/><BR/>The male left who gives lip service to woman's reproductive rights but organized for Nader and in the words of Michael Moore at a WI Nader Rally is "sick and tired of voting for people to protect abortion rights. Nothing is going to threaten abortion rights. Nothing is more secure than Roe v Wade". That is the left we talk about when we say the left is not to be trusted.<BR/><BR/>You are not talking about the criticism of feminists of the left with the distinctions you have made.<BR/><BR/>Having said that I think the post is really interesting and have passed it on.Greenconsciousnesshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12972464004044369714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-8325032823952325762008-04-22T04:37:00.000-07:002008-04-22T04:37:00.000-07:00Libertarian is just another op of the free-trade e...Libertarian is just another op of the free-trade empire utopians.<BR/><BR/>http://preview.tinyurl.com/4e56md<BR/><BR/>No offense intended (I just can't express myself well on your level.) but you guys seem to be dancing all around a stake in the ground when I want you to pull it up and thrust it through the heart of the enemy.Gary McGowanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03329080938000561329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-86057577093597439422008-04-21T18:26:00.000-07:002008-04-21T18:26:00.000-07:00Archangel:Correct, Obama's voting record marks him...Archangel:<BR/><BR/>Correct, Obama's voting record marks him as a cautious centrist. But isn't that the very definition of a rigged result? What in the Illinois State Senate, or the US Congress, could he vote on that would mark him as a raving radical? The company he keeps is radical. Is it not fair to judge him by that? If not, why not?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Commenters:<BR/><BR/>"I know Republican men who might be against abortion for religious reasons but when it comes down to treating their wives, girlfriends, or female friends with respect, some are much better than these fauxgressives."<BR/><BR/>This was a common complaint back in the 1960s. See under: Forrest Gump.<BR/><BR/>"As Tennessee Guerilla Women said in her blog post about a Condi Rice VP run, "Republicans would never stand for the media to treat Rice or any other woman on the Republican ticket with the vile disrespect showered on Hillary Rodham Clinton."<BR/><BR/>Why do you think this is? I have my suspicions. I'd be interested to hear the gallery explore this issue.<BR/><BR/>"And I'm guessing Rush Limbaugh begins to look like a sensitive and gracious gentleman next to sexist thug Bill Maher."<BR/><BR/>I yield to no one in my contempt for Rush Limbaugh, but there's no doubt in my mind he'd never trash a female Republican the way that some Dems. have trashed a one-time party heroine.<BR/><BR/>Pour moi, the misogyny of "progressive men", esp. those in the arts, or punditry, never ceases to amaze.J.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16227968511614876859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-55734983803833348532008-04-21T00:51:00.000-07:002008-04-21T00:51:00.000-07:00AdrienneJ : It's because he just wants his name in...AdrienneJ : It's because he just wants his name in the history books. He stands for nothing, because he is nothing but ego.<BR/><BR/>cutepeachpanda: all I learned from stuff white people like is that I'm not a white person. (but it's probably because I don't have the right income level (or mindset-I'm from one of those clingy families) as my frustrated partner kept telling me over my exclamations while reading the site)lost clownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02751161198550585778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-26346774779461117112008-04-20T18:29:00.000-07:002008-04-20T18:29:00.000-07:00Thanks, Cathy. We do seem to be talking Paul Lukas...Thanks, Cathy. <BR/><BR/>We do seem to be talking <A HREF="http://correntewire.com/political_psychology_obama_sexism_and_the_infantile_id" REL="nofollow">Paul Lukasiak's Infantile ID</A> here.<BR/><BR/>If we're talking tantrum, I'm the mother of two sons. I can handle tantrums.Sherryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08295623007228772234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-3936124035677501692008-04-20T17:04:00.000-07:002008-04-20T17:04:00.000-07:00Did you see the Bunk study stating 2/3 of doctors ...Did you see the Bunk study stating 2/3 of doctors in America want National Health Care. The doctors who did this study also conducted one in 2002 and found that the majority of doctors did not want national health care, the problem with this is that the 2 question surveys drastically differ in there 2nd question. I found this article, <A HREF="http://jaajoe.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=28#jc_allComments" REL="nofollow">60% of Physicians Surveyed Oppose Switching to a National Health Care Plan</A>, It's worth a read.JaaJoehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11958104929356191401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-60324794054447007632008-04-20T16:32:00.000-07:002008-04-20T16:32:00.000-07:00CutePeachPanda,Thanks for the recommendation.CutePeachPanda,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the <A HREF="http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/full-list-of-stuff-white-people-like/" REL="nofollow">recommendation.</A>CMikehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-46536543935503800522008-04-20T15:49:00.000-07:002008-04-20T15:49:00.000-07:00As I used to say in my old left days, they are wai...<I>As I used to say in my old left days, they are waiting for the masses to spontaneously erupt on their behalf and then immediately turn to them for leadership.</I><BR/><BR/>It sounds like the Bay of Pigs. *stifled laughter* With reason, I might add.janiscortesehttp://claimid.com/janiscortesenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-10065874530502844052008-04-20T14:37:00.000-07:002008-04-20T14:37:00.000-07:00Sherry,Just a quick response.Never let these peopl...Sherry,<BR/><BR/>Just a quick response.Never let these people physically scare you. Most, if not all, wimp out from any type of physical confrontation that could cost them. <BR/><BR/>(Now that doesn't include a little queer-bashing that frat boys and others do on the side. I'm talking an open conflict.)<BR/><BR/>As I used to say in my old left days, they are waiting for the masses to spontaneously erupt on their behalf and then immediately turn to them for leadership. It was never clear what was more appalling: their limited political analysis (masses tend conservative) or their egos (like a college student gets seen as a savior).<BR/><BR/>This is not to say there won't be the usual suspects in Denver. These people get off on street theater of violent demonstrations and fighting the "man" (another working class cop who puts his or her you-know-what on the line everyday for these wimps). Yawn. <BR/><BR/>(I hate to quote Newt Gingrich but he wisely once called a demonstration a "cheap date" in SF.)<BR/><BR/>No, what they are doing now is a variation on their old argument. Only instead of hinting at working-class revolution, they are convinced African Americans will do it for them. That's not going to happen. Overwhelming majority of AAs still like Hillary and will vote for her if she gets it. (May not hold true on coasts but many of these folks fall into same class elite as mentioned above. In other words, no confrontation.)Cathyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11162784314371837469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-52081441240266602692008-04-20T13:05:00.000-07:002008-04-20T13:05:00.000-07:00I agree with Cathy. The young creative class are l...I agree with Cathy. The young creative class are likely to be more socially liberal and open minded about gay marriage, abortion, and drug legalization than their parents but they are still fiscal conservatives because they want to hang on to their wealth and social status. It is exactly Social Darwinism. <BR/><BR/>I went to a private high school in a conservative upper class city. Most of my classmate's parents are the conservative Republicans who voted for Bush and will vote for McCain in November (remember, these aren't poor whites who cling to guns and religion. These people were 100% WASPS who will never vote for a Democrat - including Clinton - because they are just fine with remaining at the top of the social hiearchy). However, many of my classmates have become "progressives"/fauxgressives(the graduate school trust fund babies you will find in San Francisco, NYC, Ann Arbor, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, and Boston) who will vote for Obama or they are Libertarians (yes, many enjoy drugs and are athiests) who will vote for Paul or Obama. <BR/><BR/>This is just from the people I know and go to school with but you can see where Obama's support comes from and why Clinton, the candidate who will fight for universal health care and other social programs for the poor, isn't popular among the young, the educated, and the upper class who care more about feeling good and voting for an AA candidate who runs on the platform of hope and arrogant coolness rather than actually change anything that has to do with giving up some of their wealth and priviledge to help those who desperately need real change in our governmental policies. <BR/><BR/>I definitely see this trend continuing as the income gap widens between rich and poor, and the top 1% who are priviledged to attend private and ivy league schools will vote for Libertarian candidates who will cater to the needs of the new liberal elite. <BR/><BR/>If you guys haven't visited the site "Stuff White People Like" it is hilarious and you should check it out: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/<BR/>Obama is #8 and it everything mentioned on that website describes the stereotypical latte drinking white Obama supporter, aka most of my friends in the 20s.cutepeachpandahttp://openid.aol.com/cutepeachpandanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-26270140444318003152008-04-20T12:34:00.000-07:002008-04-20T12:34:00.000-07:00all of this needs to be put into the context of th...<I>all of this needs to be put into the context of the rightward shift of politics, and even more so of political discourse, over the last 25 years.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for pointing this out, Anglachel. I have essentially the same political standards today that I had in the 1970s but in the 1970s I was a moderate liberal and today I'm considered way to the left. It's as though the entire world has shifted around my still point. (How's that for solipsism?)<BR/><BR/>Cathy, you frighten me a little. I was hoping these threats to riot at the convention etc were just so much hyperbole. But you make me feel as though these young people are like something out of <I>A Clockwork Orange</I>.Sherryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08295623007228772234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-75549405020631960602008-04-20T12:28:00.000-07:002008-04-20T12:28:00.000-07:00Hi idear,I'm glad someone brought up Libertarianis...Hi idear,<BR/>I'm glad someone brought up Libertarianism as well. I didn't take Libertarians seriously until the last several years when - as I mentioned previously - they began to gain a huge following on college campuses and on online networks like the Facebook and Myspace. For a long time Paul was the most popular Republican candidate on Facebook. The fact that Paul raised so much money from online donations should make both Republicans and Democrats take notice. Mike Gravel also switched over to the Libertarian Party recently. I think Libertarianism will become a competitive third party in my lifetime. Obama's Libertarianism, his Libertarian supporters, as well as Libertarianism's growing popularity with young people needs to be addressed. I know some Libertarians at my school who voted for either Paul or Obama in the primary and the reasons why some Republicans - namely Independents and Libertarians - are so attracted to Obama should be studied with a closer lens.cutepeachpandahttp://openid.aol.com/cutepeachpandanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-78617259020155023922008-04-20T12:01:00.000-07:002008-04-20T12:01:00.000-07:00Thanks, Anglachel, for another great post.And than...Thanks, Anglachel, for another great post.<BR/><BR/>And thanks to others for bringing up the topic of Libertarianism. Now that you mention it, it seems to explain a lot of what seems to be going on.<BR/><BR/>Thom Hartmann often cracks that Libertarians are just Republicans who want to have sex and do drugs. Hmmm.<BR/><BR/>btw, another prominant Libertarian is Bill Maher, who happens to support Obama too. Hmmm.idearhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00610520001565344223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-30525621238052383062008-04-20T10:20:00.000-07:002008-04-20T10:20:00.000-07:00Catriley over at NO QUARTER remarked that she's se...Catriley over at NO QUARTER remarked that she's seeing the frat houses that mocked the anti-war supporters who now have Obama stickers in the windows, and who had GWB stickers in the windows before.<BR/><BR/>Democrat for a Day doesn't even begin to cover it. These are white men using black men as a bat to beat and old white bitch with. The minute she is out of the way (assuming she is, and the better she does in PA, the less likely that becomes), the McCain stickers are going up.<BR/><BR/>They aren't in this for anti-war reasons. They aren't in this for "hope" or "change." They are in it to beat the bitch, and once that's done, Obama will be dropped like any bat once you finish beating up your target. That's the endpoint they are aiming for-- beat the bitch. Once that's accomplished, he's done with and they back to voting Repub they go.<BR/><BR/>Again, when it comes to women and women's issues, there are two parties only, and the dividing lines do not match up with the loines dividing Democrat from Republican or liberal from conservative. Those two parties are:<BR/><BR/>1) People who see that we are human, and<BR/>2) People who do not.<BR/><BR/>That is ALL there is for us.janiscortesehttp://claimid.com/janiscortesenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-71359772928855206252008-04-20T09:51:00.000-07:002008-04-20T09:51:00.000-07:00A-You write, "There is nothing Obama has done as a...A-<BR/>You write, "There is nothing Obama has done as a public figure that indicates he has radical or extremist political beliefs." I guess I want to point out that, I can't think of anything that Obama has done as a public figure, period. Even you find it hard to find anything of substance in his resume. I can't find anything. So, probably because we have no record to go on<BR/>(except things like the ironic missing records from his Illinois days) we, the people, tend to look towards his associations....<BR/><BR/>Wherein we find a lot of unpleasant, unsavory characters. To me, Obama has united the far left and the far right. Something no sane person ever wanted to see. Perhaps I shouldn't say Obama, because I certainly don't give him credit for having the brains to pull off such a political move. To me, Obama is just a poster boy. He's just the messenger, nothing more.<BR/><BR/>Not only does Obama not have any political (or even any substantative private sector or academic) record, he also seems to have no verifiable stand on any issues. For gay rights, not for gay rights? Pro choice or not pro choice? Pro NAFTA and Columbia Free Trade Agreement or anti CFTA? He slides all over the place on gun control, all over the map on the Iraq war. The guy will not take any stand on any issue and stick with it. It is as though he has some kind of memory disorder-- wherein he can not remember what his stand is supposed to be-- he can only think of what this particular audience is supposed to want to hear. And sometimes he falls completely flat on that.<BR/><BR/>If it were possible, I would begin to think that this guy is just a holographic image, he seems so without substance or soul. I know that's impossible...<BR/>No really, I know that's impossible....<BR/><BR/>Anyway, because Obama himself seems to be a black hole, I look around him for clues as to his <BR/>unobservable essence.<BR/><BR/>I see Ayers and Dohrn and Wright and Meeks and Donnie McCulkin and<BR/>Donna Brazile. These people are<BR/>traitors to each of the causes from which they say they spring.<BR/>Ayers and Dohrn were all about ending war. Instead they brought war. They killed people and would have killed many more in the name of ending the killing of people.<BR/>How's that for a mind twist? Wright and Meeks supposedly are Christian church leaders. Instead they preach pure hate<BR/>(a thing most of us don't associate Jesus with). They teach intolerance and divisiveness. Donnie McCulkin is the poster boy for "Jesus saved me from being a homosexual." Enough said there. And Donna Brazile (big, big homophobe herself. Dean is quoted as saying that Donna Brazile objected to affirmative action on behalf of getting LGBT members as delegates.<BR/>According to Dean, Brazile objected to it because it equated civil rights with gay rights. Oh my. That's right,Donna. Give gay people civil rights, and everybody will want them. For Pete's sake.) Anyway, Brazile-- who is supposed to be looking out for Democratic voters in her high profile role in the DNC-- was a principle actor in denying the votes from Michigan and Florida from counting. Each and every one of these people have betrayed those they supposedly represent.<BR/>And they all have close allegiance to Obama. That means something to me. I find these characters to be very unsavory.<BR/><BR/>Then we have the college devotees.<BR/>The Obama followers who have decided that for some reason acts of intimidation are "okay." We have virtual terrorists lighting up the blogsphere with the most vile spew imaginable. Not content to soil their own sheets, they come out to mess up the pro Hillary blogs. There is an incredible lack of courtesy here.<BR/><BR/>I have to look at who is encouraging this kind of behavior, who is condoning this behavior. And it obviously is Obama and his campaign. The incredible lack of class Obama showed in his recent "finger" speech was really disquieting. How can one expect his most non-critical thinking devotees to behave any better than he does.<BR/><BR/>So, although we don't have evidence on record of what Obama stands for... I think by examing what stands around him we see him take some form.<BR/><BR/>He is politically opportunistic, Republican-speaking one moment, <BR/>Democratic-speaking the next. Pro gun control, anti-gun control, ad nauseum.<BR/><BR/>But more than all these things, is the importance of pure instinct. My instinct tell me that this man is a very dangerous creature. And any argument I make only is an attempt to try and put into words why that is.<BR/>However, Mr. Obama is now giving us all sorts of words with which to name him.<BR/><BR/><BR/>On a different note: Thanks for your remarks on Dean. I thought perhaps there was something else going on there than his usual cheerleading for Obama. Thanks for giving a different take on that.AdrienneJhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09095033797496725438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-89708887726344020592008-04-20T08:08:00.000-07:002008-04-20T08:08:00.000-07:00Barak Obama is not the Manchurian Candidate.He's t...Barak Obama is not the Manchurian Candidate.<BR/>He's the Morgan/Stanley Candidate.SweetSuehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14089553194280388624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-58370412455360905772008-04-20T07:00:00.000-07:002008-04-20T07:00:00.000-07:00cmike...Exactly! BO's positions are not liberal (...cmike...Exactly! BO's positions are not liberal (particularly if you listen to the details) and yet people (Markos, et al) make him out to be a screaming liberal.<BR/><BR/>I have been on edge about the guy from one of the early debates when he (once again) avoided saying "Yes, he supports a women's right to choose" and instead talked about how he believes the decision should be between a women, her doctor, her family and her clergy. I about fell off the couch...who's next...your next door neighbor and the mailperson?<BR/><BR/>My concern has always been - and continues to be - his inability/refusal to avoid answering important issue questions.<BR/><BR/>In CT in 2006, CT Dems were rallying around Ned Lamont and we looked to national Dems to provide support. In classic Obama "present" fashion, he avoided setting foot in the state - even though he was in NYC for a book signing event, then had a free day before he needed to be in Mass to copy a speech from Devel Patrick, er, I mean, campaign for Devel Patrick. CT is smack dab in between the two locations and he never showed. Then he got angry when a last minute "I support Ned" e-mail was sent to 5,000 CT Dems instead of 500. The result? Another 6 horrible years of Joe Lieberman.<BR/><BR/>With friends like that, who needs enemies?<BR/><BR/>He wants to be all things to all people and that never works out...for anyone.Shainzonahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18219260005354359058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-90273362047486642872008-04-20T05:17:00.000-07:002008-04-20T05:17:00.000-07:00I think he's considered radical because he wants t...I think he's considered radical because he wants to be. He deliberately drops these clues and if you don't get his little clues, you don't understand what is being meant by 'nuance'. <BR/><BR/>He's advertising alienation and bitterness - it's all that comes out of his mouth, and the way he has surrounded himself by bitter people sends a message that he likes radicals. And the way he himself keeps bringing up "bittergate" does double duty twice - first, it reminds everyone of an attack on him, don't you hate people like that. But then, when he has the chance to talk about any issue he likes, he chooses to talk about bitter some more. And when he talks about how bitter people are, the correct interpretation alternately becomes "America is bitter and needs to be changed like a dirty diaper" and "Americans are bitter because the government mistreats them" - it becomes whatever is convenient just like "dirt on my shoulder" is both the coolest pop culture reference in the world (if you like rap) or not there, can't prove it (if you don't). <BR/><BR/>A lot of people think the change he is talking about is pretty radical (as in turning over existing order and replacing something radically new and different). They'll vote for him because from their vantage point, he gets (and we don't get) that everything is rotten and no good. And that's what they see as being needed: someone who can say, "everything is rotten and no good".<BR/><BR/>Whatever the intentions behind this campaign, it is revealing a real weakness in the liberal position. To criticize is important, much needed - but our party has gotten so hung up on negativity and bitterness that its own negativity and anger could get in the way now that the chance for change is actually here.jacilynhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12726220065951856055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-43628506868848200012008-04-20T05:00:00.000-07:002008-04-20T05:00:00.000-07:00Thank you Anglachel, I wish I could write as well ...Thank you Anglachel, I wish I could write as well as you. <BR/><BR/>I too have little issue with Wright, Rezco, Ayers and co, except that, I think too many fellow Americans might have issues with it in the GE. <BR/><BR/>Like some others here though, I have had difficulty with seeing Obama as a left-centrist. I originally saw him significantly farther to the right than Clinton, Edwards and other high-profile long-term Democrats, eg his position on health care, his watering down the nuclear leak legislation, his 'present' votes etc and his Milton Friedmann school of economic advisors, all for laissez-faire free-market unregulated capitalism. <BR/><BR/>However, Obama has been allowing his public persona/image to be painted with a veneer of left radical cred, pandering to the left with dog-whistles. <BR/><BR/>Thanks to this blog, up until now, I hadn't seen the connection with Libertarianism. Duh! That would help explain why the dog-whistles and wedging have worked on a cross-section along the spectrum through traditional leftist and rightist factions, and also the youth voting bloc. <BR/><BR/>Also helps explain my confusion in why some perceive him as liberal/progressive, while others like me, always saw him as much closer to Republican-in-Drag.jalchttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04131994253697646376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-19436856429991227712008-04-20T03:23:00.000-07:002008-04-20T03:23:00.000-07:00gendergappers: Yes, Gallup did a poll in late Marc...gendergappers: Yes, Gallup did a poll in late March and 28% of Clinton supporters said they would vote for McCain compared to only 19% of Obama supporters who said they would vote for McCain if Clinton is the nominee:<BR/><BR/>http://www.gallup.com/poll/105691/McCain-vs-Obama-28-Clinton-Backers-McCain.aspx?version=print<BR/><BR/>Wanna bet that number is even higher after bitter-gate, flipping the bird, and a poor debate performance? My own estimate is that a good 40% won't vote for Obama if you include those of us who will stay home or write in Hillary. <BR/><BR/>I realize that Hillary can't win without Obama supporters either but Obama has more to lose especially since many of his votes were from Democrats for a Day folks who will vote for McCain anyway and Republicans and Independents who might have left Obama for McCain since revelations of Rev. Wright surfaced. We can't really poll how many former Obama supporters deflected back to McCain because of all these gaffes made by Obama in the last month. Clinton's only mistake was her Bosnia flap but I think that's pretty much ended and will soon be behind her after she wins PA. Obama has a lot more issues to deal with and as we saw from the ABC debate, he isn't ready to answer any questions about Wright, Ayers, bitter-gate, Rezco, among other problems he'll need to deal with if he's the nominee.cutepeachpandahttp://openid.aol.com/cutepeachpandanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-49119151594001396192008-04-20T02:55:00.000-07:002008-04-20T02:55:00.000-07:00Cutepeachpanda wrote: "More Clinton supporters tha...Cutepeachpanda wrote: "More Clinton supporters than Obama's will vote for McCain because we're insulted by his arrogance, elitism, bad attitude, race biating, refusal to count MI and FL, and insults towards Clinton and her supporters. Top all of that with MSNBC and the Blogger Boyz and you've got 30-40% of Clinton supporters staying home or voting for McCain if Obama is the nominee."<BR/><BR/>I have sensed this through the comments on various Blogs and I wonder if anyone has any real measure of this. Certainly the women and men I know are not the go with the flow usually seen. They do not like the idea of voting for McC but will write in HRC. Anyone got an estimate of those of us who will write in HRC if fairness is not observed?<BR/><BR/>Also, Anglachel - thank you so much for staying positive on HRC.gendergappershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06607028861861443195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-17852958711612629792008-04-20T01:47:00.000-07:002008-04-20T01:47:00.000-07:00Interesting comments Joseph and CutePeachPanda. I ...Interesting comments Joseph and CutePeachPanda. I think the two of you are on to something. <BR/><BR/>To my ear Sen. Obama has never sounded like a left leaning centrist. On issue after issue Sen. Obama lets it be known that he's to the right of Sen. Clinton. She's going to raise taxes on households making over $200,000, he's going to raise taxes on households making more than $250,000. She's going to force people into health care plans, he's going to let the people continue to decide for themselves if they can afford health care. <BR/><BR/>Sen. Obama lets you know he's the type of conflicted pro-choicer that a pro-lifer like Sen. Casey can respect. Obama has his public positions on free trade and troop withdrawal from Iraq but, if you listen hard enough, his top advisers indicate he has his private positions on those matters. <BR/><BR/>Recently Sam Nunn, Dave Boren, and Lee Hamilton endorsed Sen. Obama. Believe it or not, but his progressive supporters are taking that as a good sign.CMikehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13481861530761114492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-66430513146294417512008-04-19T22:09:00.000-07:002008-04-19T22:09:00.000-07:00Thank you for this article - it's something I've a...Thank you for this article - it's something I've always wanted to say, but I could never say it with so much insight and clarity. <BR/>On the Wright and Ayers controversies, my issue is not that Obama is 'friends' with them - I like my presidential candidates to be 'friends' with a large variety of people, actually, the more the merrier. My big issue is that Barack actually was close to them (at least to Wright), and then put of political expediency tried to play down his connections with them ["Ayers was just in the neighbourhood" or "I wasnt in church the day he said this"], and then alternately tries to stand up for himself [in his race speech about Wright] or shove them under the bus each time ["those statements were unpatriotic" about Wright]. He is a liar, and is trying to walk a thin, thin line here, which is fine - every politician does that - but hey, at least don't go around saying you're NOT a politician. <BR/>When Bill Clinton tried his triangulating, he actually gave it a name and called himself a 'New Deal Democrat', was relatively open about his vision and desire to be more moderate than far-left. Barack does not have the honesty to come out and say that he will be moderate or that he will be far-left, he prefers to let people project/make whatever they want, and in different situations will say whatever makes people happy. In that sense, he's more a film star or a celeb on the lines of George Clooney than like Nick Clooney, George's dad. Nick was, of course, the person who would stand up for what he believed in, even though that often made him unpopular, the guy you may not like but one that you will respect for his honesty. <BR/>So if Barry was a liar but honest about being a liar, that would be fine. If he was honest but unlikeable, that would be fine too. The problem is, he's a liar and lies about his lying. It's hard to like him, really.Chevalierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04060692142269517078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-72255543383034548692008-04-19T22:01:00.000-07:002008-04-19T22:01:00.000-07:00Well, I suppose I'm torn over term libertarianism....Well, I suppose I'm torn over term libertarianism. It has a surface appeal with the idea of individual freedom and responsibility. That fits the Western mystique up to a point (until your remember how pioneers hung together to survive). But if you scratch deeper you end up agreeing with the late author Marian Zimmerman Bradley that it's simply "Social Darwinism." In other words it helps those already ahead of the game stay on top.<BR/><BR/>Too many years in the Bay Area (both native and living) have me in the "radical chic" camp of the argument. Years ago Alison Bechtel produced a great cartoon showing two female demonstrators showing off the clothing items they picked up in various third world countries. (In other words, it was like a huge shopping trip akin to Macy's for the matrons.)That's the bulk of non-AA Obama supporters in Bay Area (CA).<BR/><BR/>As for youth providing bulwark for libertarianism that's been an accelerating trend since Reagan. Each succeeding generation of upper class kids has been pampered not only with material goods but extreme lessons in self-esteem. As a result many are impossible to be around, much less work or communicate with on a regular basis. Supporting Obama provides them both with the opportunity to fit with their peers and feel "important." <BR/><BR/>I'll conclude this rambling rant with an anecdote. We have a SF Columnist, Mark Morford, who specializes in creating memorable columnists pushing boundaries on sex and politics. He is now a huge Obama supporter and recently wrote of the need "not to lose the feeling" that came from joining Obama's campaign. I immediately likened it to something done in a circle. My partner - who is far more patient than me - more aptly pointed out that to these folks "feeling good" about themselves was far more important that picking the candidate best able to serve the country. <BR/><BR/>So when we go forward to rebuild the party (a necessity even if Hill pulls it out) we need to focus on fixing this problem. The selfless unity that should have happened with 9-11 and war has been squandered by Bushco. We no longer teach morality in schools (I dislike organized religion but learned life principles from the 1970's social gospel taught in my Catholic schools). Our popular culture is dominated by the need to be the most beautiful, violent, and/or popular. <BR/><BR/>However I'm at a loss on next step. At most we have folks concerned about "greening" country. But too often it's another excuse to shop.Cathyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11162784314371837469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4119943.post-17313741495708603112008-04-19T21:33:00.000-07:002008-04-19T21:33:00.000-07:00Hi Joseph. Thanks for pointing that out as well. I...Hi Joseph. Thanks for pointing that out as well. I also have gorunds to believe that Obama is a Libertarian Democrat. I guess that would be a good reason for college-aged adults to support him. If you look on thefacebook.com, the support for both Ron Paul and Obama is huge. As a young student myself, I never understood how the Libertarian movement became so popular since I started college. When I was in high school, one of my classmates declared in history class that he was a Libertarian (because his brother who was in college at the time was also a Libertarian) and I was like, "what the hell is a Libertarian?" and now it seems like every other kid on campus is a Libertarian or "progressive" for Obama. It's kind of scary if Libertarianism does insinuate itself in the Democratic Party. That is something I don't want to see happen.cutepeachpandahttp://openid.aol.com/cutepeachpandanoreply@blogger.com