I continue to disagree with this cheating can't be stopped. That's totally absurd. It can be stopped. The answer isn't, well just let them go, then when racing is so expensive that there are no longer any competitors the game of who can outspend who will be over. Of course there will be a winner and a loser. The winner the one who still has money left. The loser will be everybody who loves racing. Quite obviously if you walk around with blinders and earmuffs on and your head up your ***, race teams are going to cheat. This is just how people are. This is all aspects of life. Not just racing. You have to have rules that there is no way to get around them. You must EMPHASIZE to the teams that that's the way it's going to be. Heavy fines and suspension will be the penalty. Well who's going to do that???????????? Well obviously it's going to have to be the tracks. So how can you blame the teams for spending all this money????????????????????????????? Once again and QUITE OBVIOUSLY if the avenue to cheat and spend money is NOT there, then you tell me how the teams are going to do it?????????????????????? I don't care for NASCAR, but they do have a very strict rule book and it is enforced. Do people still try to cheat????? Yes they do! Are they caught??? Well, Yes they are! Is it expensive????????? Well, Yes it is! Is it a deterrent, and does it keep cheating to a minimum??????????? You BETTCHA!

Newbomb we already put this to bed, if there was a way to completely stop cheating it would have been implemented by now, kinda like my speeding analogy that flew over your head. Why do you keep stating the most obvious points on this topic. Please let the adults have a discussion and save your silly colorful nonsense posts for somewhere else.

What is obvious to you, is obvious to you. You don't think or speak for for me. That's why I was given my own brain and mind. Completely stop cheating, NO. Keep it to a minimum and punish offenders, YES! Same reason we have laws in society and penalty's for offenders. We don't have more people in jail than we do free do we??????????????? Obviously Not! What would society look like if it were run like racing. I hate to even imagine.

_________________This is the place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.

The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.Gilbert K. Chesterton

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.Mark Twain

[quote="i still think wingless cars on a 1/4 to 3/8 track with purses around what indiana pays at weekly shows would work. any motor size, no tech and 2 or 3 choices (on the harder side of the scale) of right rear tire from any manufacturer would bring back some exciting shows for the fans and a ton less money spent by owners. you can find decent 12 head 410's for around 10k that wont win locally with a wing but would be perfect for a wingless car......

Why would this class be immune to over spending on motors? Seems like every other class designed to save money eventually gets too expensive.[/quote]

the idea is based on the fact that there is only so much power you can put to a non winged car before it becomes counterproductive and you cant hook the car up. i have seen races and watched videos and read about drivers in 305's and 360's beating 410's given the right driver and track conditions....and some were big, fast tracks. once a track slicks off, the big money big motors are at a disadvantage....sometimes to the point of taking gear and timing out of the motor to get it hooked up.we use to run quad 4 motors in our midget and given the right senarios, the car would drive right by motors with 125-150 more hp just because it was so underpowered it wouldnt spin the tires where everyone else would. a couple of the best examples were 24th to 7th at NES and 24th to 3rd at lindas and still coming before breaking a shock and finishing 7th again.....all this with $50 junkyard motor right out of the car. 2 very different tracks but the conditions were right both nights where HP didnt matter and all the money in the world wouldnt get a high HP motor to hook up.

[quote="i still think wingless cars on a 1/4 to 3/8 track with purses around what indiana pays at weekly shows would work. any motor size, no tech and 2 or 3 choices (on the harder side of the scale) of right rear tire from any manufacturer would bring back some exciting shows for the fans and a ton less money spent by owners. you can find decent 12 head 410's for around 10k that wont win locally with a wing but would be perfect for a wingless car......

Why would this class be immune to over spending on motors? Seems like every other class designed to save money eventually gets too expensive.

the idea is based on the fact that there is only so much power you can put to a non winged car before it becomes counterproductive and you cant hook the car up. i have seen races and watched videos and read about drivers in 305's and 360's beating 410's given the right driver and track conditions....and some were big, fast tracks. once a track slicks off, the big money big motors are at a disadvantage....sometimes to the point of taking gear and timing out of the motor to get it hooked up.we use to run quad 4 motors in our midget and given the right senarios, the car would drive right by motors with 125-150 more hp just because it was so underpowered it wouldnt spin the tires where everyone else would. a couple of the best examples were 24th to 7th at NES and 24th to 3rd at lindas and still coming before breaking a shock and finishing 7th again.....all this with $50 junkyard motor right out of the car. 2 very different tracks but the conditions were right both nights where HP didnt matter and all the money in the world wouldnt get a high HP motor to hook up.[/quote]

For sure. I can't believe no track has tried it yet. Path Valley seems like it would be perfect. Susky and Clinton County are good candidates as well. All these tracks we have struggling to keep racing costs under control while trying to find a good headline division, you'd think someone would try thinking outside the box. It's not really even thinking outside the box(just in this area) as it's been proven to be successful in other parts of the country. 2 ways to keep costs down- smaller tracks, no wings. This is coming from someone who is primarily a winged fan although I like all forms. Sure it would add another class in an area that already has too many but in this case I think it would be a good thing as it would open up an avenue to lower budget sprint teams looking to race in a top division, plus it might even save a track.

What have the Super Sportsman done better than these other open wheel divisions. They have been around for a long time run on many of the same tracks and seem to maintain a good stable program.

IMO its less downforce without the 5x5 foil and no front wing. Also no power steering. Kind of puts it back on the drivers rearend and right foot. Path Valley next week will be the real test. Hope there's a decent car count and good weather. Well worth the hour or so drive for me. If you go take your camera, Bound to get "multiple" car pics to share

I don't think non wing would work around this area long term. This is winged country. JMO of course.

There currently aren't any wingless teams in PA so it wouldn't be an overnight success. It would take a couple years to get it up and running but I think it would grow and be a long term success given the right track and promoter. The USAC Eastern Storm tour is back again this year(4th or 5th year?) so it seems there is some local interest in non-wing sprint racing.

I don't think non wing would work around this area long term. This is winged country. JMO of course.

There currently aren't any wingless teams in PA so it wouldn't be an overnight success. It would take a couple years to get it up and running but I think it would grow and be a long term success given the right track and promoter. The USAC Eastern Storm tour is back again this year(4th or 5th year?) so it seems there is some local interest in non-wing sprint racing.

Crowds have been growing every year. Check it out at Grandview or susky and make your own opinion.

Mark Smith has run non-wing in Indiana several times, there are a few other driver who run with USAC almost every time they come East. I am 66 years old and grew up with non-winged race cars, heck, I watched them run without roll bars until the mid 50's let alone without cages. Don't get me wrong, winged sprints are a lot better than Eastern modifieds, a little better than dirt late models, but nothing is like non-wing sprints. I go out to Indiana for the 500 and have seen local and USAC non-winged sprints run at short tracks, third of a mile tracks and big half miles and without a doubt I think it is the best racing I see during the year. I am sure it would sell in the East, just has to be done correctly. PS. Look how much success ARDC has had since they went non-winged and the success on the 600 micros as non-winged. There are drivers and teams that have experience and there fans that will support this type of racing. It will take time but it will grow.

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