I fail to understand what business it is of the President (or Presidential candidate) or the federal government whether South Carolina or Georgia flies the Stars and Bars. I'm getting fairly sick of all this pandering.

I second what many other GOP folks have said--if the republicans nominate the Huck, they will have recreated a Huey Long with religious streak. And paraphrasing Ronaldus Maximus: the republican party will have left me forever. (although they did head out the door with their egregious control of the house, starting with the government shut down and culminating with their most recent defense of pork).

My parents retired to Strom Thurmond's area in South Carolina - incidentally one town there being officially the last to desegratate the high schools (1974..little after brown v. board lol). Anyway a guy who was running for mayor said the same thing in 1988 when the justic department arrived to take a look at the "at large" election process (60:40 w/b but never a black elected in the history of the town). he said "it sticks in my craw that washington would come down here and force their views on us" (his exact words unfortunately). His view had wide popular support on a number of levels.

I'm not saying SC is a backwater for this kind of stuff but Huckleberry is speaking a language that resonates with perhaps enough that his showing won't be reflective of what the rest of us are beginning to think of him.

While the PC police have effectively removed the last vestiges of Southern Civil War Pride from the public view, the feelings and memories of many in the South are both deep and long. If you move past the rhetoric and history written by the winners, the southerners viewed the events of that time this way:

The northern states were using their economic and legislative leverage to retard economic and industrial development.

Their subsequent seccession which they believed to be allowable under the constitution was met with a military response. Relevant here was the origination of hostilities in South Carolina. Also of historical interest is that the New York delegation to the Constitutional Convention would not ratify without an assurance that seccession was permitted.

At the end of the war, the South, particularly South Carolins and Georgia was burned to the ground with the usual rape, pillage, murder and plunder that accompanied winning armies before our era of enlightened warfare.

The Stars and Bars, was the Confederate Battle Flag. The PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery. To the people in South Carolina, it is a reminder of a holocaust of sorts. As world Judaism (I am Jewish) attaches "Never Forget" to the Holocaust, the Stars and Bars are the reminder to southerners of the brutal war, its aftermath of occupation and reconstruction, and the disdain in which they were held by ther northerners who wrote the history books.

They were not fighting to protect slavery, but to protect their freedom, homes, etc. Think about the U.S. Army marching into your town and taking over. Not a pleasant thought.

Now, with that basis, we can see that Huckabee is pandering. He's telling people that he wouldn't allow the Northeast, West Coast liberal PC police take away their memories as they have been doing the last 20 years or so.

At the end of the war, the South, particularly South Carolins and Georgia was burned to the ground with the usual rape, pillage, murder and plunder that accompanied winning armies before our era of enlightened warfare.

One of the blessings of coming from a family of packrats is that I've been able to peruse the diary of my great-great-grandfather, who was in the Civil War. The unit he was in was forbidden from plundering, and those orders were, in large part, followed. When his unit took Montgomery AL, the populace were happy to see them, and did not want them to leave. The collapse of authority does bring out the vandal in some -- on both sides.

Re General Sherman (and the civil war). The civil war was, IMO, the first of the modern wars and its innovations can be seen throughout 20th century warfare. It featured railroad logistics, telegraphs, aerial observation, armor plated warships, and automatic weapons. It was the subject of active observation by European army staffs. And I think General Sherman's strategy of scorched earth was a necessary element of that strategy.

That said, I think Elliot makes some good points about how southerners viwed the war (and right of secession). Add to that, in the mid 19th century, ones attachment was far stronger with one's native state than the federal entity. Read Robert E Lee's explanation about his "native Virginia" as his reason for taking up confederate arms.

At the end of the war, the South, particularly South Carolins and Georgia was burned to the ground with the usual rape, pillage, murder and plunder that accompanied winning armies before our era of enlightened warfare.

The problem is not the stars and bars. The problem is what it ahs come to symbolize, thanks to extreme racist groups like the KKK. Had these groups not used that particular flag as their symbol of hatred I do not beleive that the Confederate flag would stir such heated controversy.

The problem is not the stars and bars. The problem is what it ahs come to symbolize, thanks to extreme racist groups like the KKK.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I myself don't look fondly on the Stars and Bars myself mainly because I see it as a symbol of dividing the nation and not so much a racist symbol (I am white thought). I think there is one flag that represents this country and its the Stars and Stripes.

That being said it seems that today's Southerners seem a helluva lot more patriotic than those in the Northeastern states. I don't think most southerners view the flag as seperatist but rather as something that identifies them as Southern.

Born and bred white Southerner here from the Deep South - Mississippi -and an Ole Miss grad. I can't stand the Stars and Bars myself mostly because when I see it, it is on some bumper of an old, beat-up pickup truck driven by uneducated redneck morons who embarrass the hell out of me. (I can say this because, see, I am a Southerner and we can dis our own.)

It belongs in museums, in civil war graveyards, on civil war memorials and in private homes if people are so inclined and not flying above any government building. The reason, for me anyway, is that the winner simply does not fly the flag of the loser in any war.

It belongs in museums, in civil war graveyards, on civil war memorials and in private homes if people are so inclined and not flying above any government building.

Eeeexactly. Fly it from your front porch, your truck, your tailgate party, whatever, but don't expect the entire state to live under it.

I find it interesting that while freedom-lovin' Huckabee doesn't think the state of South Carolina should be forced to bend to the PC movement's whims, he apparently has no problem forcing thousands of South Carolina's citizens to live under a symbol they find bigoted and detestable.

Drudge Report- January 18, 2008A new flag controversy has erupted on the campaign trail in South Carolina. While much of the attention of most of the media has focused on the Southern Battle Flag controversy, a question has arisen as to why a red flag occasionally flies on the Hillary Clinton campaign bus. “Hillary has a very changeable temperament,” said a Clinton staffer on condition of anonymity. “Every once in a while she can be sweet, but most of time she is a raging bitch like she has really, really bad PMS. So when she is in full blown bitch mode we say “the Red Flag is up boys, watch your back” and we fly the red banner on the front antenna. This way the advance staff and the secret service know what’s up.” A cursory examination has revealed that the red flag has flown for 635 consecutive days. Developing……

The true historic flag of South Carolina is the Palmetto tree flag. Flying the stars and bars is a tribute to the battle to retain slavery. And any Jew should be able to see the exact parallel of Germans seeing the Hakenkreuz as "the reminder to Germans of the brutal war, its aftermath of occupation and reconstruction, and the disdain in which they were held by the Allied powers who wrote the history books." The Germans are smarter than the Southerners, and have banned display of emblems of the Third Reich.

Trooper: Hillary has moved past the realm of PMS to the realm of hot flashes and night sweats.

Doug - Eeeexactly. Fly it from your front porch, your truck, your tailgate party, whatever, but don't expect the entire state to live under it.

Except the f*cking people of S Carolina VOTED to retain the flag, including pluralities of black voters.

I find it interesting that while freedom-lovin' Huckabee doesn't think the state of South Carolina should be forced to bend to the PC movement's whims, he apparantly has no problem forcing thousands of South Carolina's citizens to live under a symbol they find bigoted and detestable.

Actually the problem is more likely to be, in voter's minds, John McCain's pandering that he was for the State and it's voters to decide in 2000, then after he lost the Primary, to conclude he would look better in front of cameras saying residents should be ashamed.

The agitation is no different than the ACLU's war against visible aspects of the Christian Faith. The basic argument is that democracy must be byspassed and majority rule ignored if any vocal activist expresses "hurt and suffering" on behalf of themselves and their identity group.

And if "hurt" is established, even if it is just in their minds or imagination, manifestations of the majority culture must be wiped out while the minority culture is further celebrated and made further visible as good and noble.

And the Southerners are having the same reaction as "progressive" Northerners and people in the UK are now having to demands of new arrival Muslims and their lawyers that they scrap aspects of Western culture and civilization that are "hurtful and offensive" to ALL Muslims (actually just a fringe of professional grievance peddlers.)

In South Carolina's case, the main agitation comes from the now openly racist NAACP (The Klan With The Tan) factions from mostly outside SC, New Black Panthers Party, far Left Southern Law Poverty Center, MSM, and elements of progressive academia.

Kirk--good question. I certainly ellipsized the argument but see if this helps: shortly after taking power, the GOP and St. Newt overplayed their hand badly by letting President Clinton shut down the government and transferring blame. As the GOP continued in power they continued to be politically tone deaf as evidenced by signing on to the democrats love of pork and outdoing the earlier Dems under Tip O'Neil. The common thread is political tone deafness. Sorry for making the argument too superficial.

Elliot A: "The Stars and Bars, was the Confederate Battle Flag. The PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery. To the people in South Carolina, it is a reminder of a holocaust of sorts."

rightwingprof said..."I fail to understand what business it is of the President (or Presidential candidate) or the federal government whether South Carolina or Georgia flies the Stars and Bars. I'm getting fairly sick of all this pandering."

It's a form of bullying and intimidation akin to cross burning and a gesture of defiance against values they couldn't beat on the battlefield. As Elliot points out, this gesture of defiance is not well hidden. With that said, I disagree with the balance of Elliot's post; the south seceded, which was not and is not a valid and allowable course of action under the Constitution, and despite Elliot's claim that this invalid and treasonous action "met with a military response," the south fired first - on April 12, 1861, at 4:30 a.m, as history records.

Elliot A said..."They were not fighting to protect slavery, but to protect their freedom, homes, etc. "

They were fighting for the freedom to keep slaves in their homes. As you say, "[t]he Stars and Bars[] was the Confederate Battle Flag," but it is not true that "[t]he PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery" - the Confederate States of America did that, and it will never be forgotten. I think TROblog's comment above has it exactly right - "It belongs in museums, in civil war graveyards, on civil war memorials and in private homes if people are so inclined and not flying above any government building. The ... winner simply does not fly the flag of the loser in any war."

It's certainly arguable that states and individuals have the power to display it, insofar as it may be a constitutionally-protected right and thus beyond the power of government to ban. But in my own view, it has no moral right. On this issue, one my party has perennially found itself on the wrong side of, I dissent.

the south fired first - on April 12, 1861, at 4:30 a.m, as history records.

As an aside interesting perhaps only to me, the southern general responsible for ordering the first shot of the Civil War was also instrumental in adopting the southern battle flag which is the subject of the current debate. (As a further aside, the "Stars and Bars" was the first national of the C.S.A. and not the flag which is the subject of the current debate.)

Whereas it should more properly be thought of as a symbol of the people who killed more United States soldiers than any other army in history.

Revenant, An appeal to logic and fact in this conversation will get you absolutely nowhere. But I think you know that. Which makes your valiant but ultimately fruitless attempt all the more poignant. Kudos all the same.

There is a difference between the CSA and the Nazis. One wanted to be left alone, the other wanted world domination. The CSA saw itself as an analogy to the colonies breaking away from Britain. Just they didn't get away with it. Read the Declaration of Independence. Read Thomas Jefferson's inaugural speech in 1801. Read his writings concerning the New England Seccessionists.

While the slavery issue is always the central theme of the Civil War, it was still only an excuse to many northeners for the war. Virtually no northerners wanted freed slaves moving to their neck of the woods. Abraham Lincoln was quoted in one of the debates with Douglas in 1858: "..am not and never have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office..." To Lincoln, the south was in the way of his goal of centralizing and strengthening many facets of the federal government. Lincoln did not believe that whites and blacks could live together in the same society. He thought white people racially superior. Etc. Etc. While the awful condition of slavery is a wonderful fallback position in Civil War discussions, it wasn't the reason for the war, much the same as we know WMDs weren't the real reason for Iraq. Slavery could have been ended without 600000 dead if that were the intent of the northern states.

All the discussions about the candidates should make it painfully clear that there are always agendas, they will say and do anything to further their's and they are not telling you what they are really thinking.

That all said, I could never vote for Huckabee. I think he is a clown, and not made of the stuff necessary to be POTUS.

I grew up seeing the Confederate Flag as a Rebel flag. Rebel. It was a big ole FU to the man. Do you really think a rebel is going to abondon a powerful symbol because the powers that be say it means something else?

(I speak as someone whose Tennessee and Kentucky forefathers fought for the Union.)