The problem we currently have on live is that Mutilate generates between 2 and 3 combo points. Once we have 4 combo points, we are forced to use Envenom with 4 combo points because another Mutilate will waste combo points resulting in a DPS loss. Anticipation allows us to use another Mutilate so we can do a 5 combo point Envenom and not lose any combo points.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that the main reason you use Envenom is to get the Envenom buff, not the damage. Of course the damage is great as well but the buff provides way more. And now they changed poisons to crit with our melee crit rate it's only going to be better.

I'm well aware how envenom works, the logs I've done on my 85 evis as sub is 26% of my dmg envenom is 16% yes it increases poison procs. But I think its fair to finisher dmg is a big part of sub now which was my point to who I was replying to. At 90 the combo gen as all specs is terrible so finishers overall dmg is next nothing.

The problem with beta assassin is its much much slower at building cp's its to hard to say if it will be worth waiting on another mutilate at 4cp's. If it turns out to not be worth it Anticipation will be mostly useless as that is spec that would get the most out of it.

My only complaint while leveling is that the healing poisons don't scare very well. Early on they were OP but by 87 they weren't even noticeable. Seeing as its a loss in dmg I would expect it to be a noticeable at least while leveling. I like the new shadow dagger thing though. Hopefully it fixes that annoying minute gap in the combat rotation where you are doing nothing while waiting for cds to come back.

My only complaint while leveling is that the healing poisons don't scare very well. Early on they were OP but by 87 they weren't even noticeable. Seeing as its a loss in dmg I would expect it to be a noticeable at least while leveling. I like the new shadow dagger thing though. Hopefully it fixes that annoying minute gap in the combat rotation where you are doing nothing while waiting for cds to come back.

Leeching scales fine its our dmg that took so hard of drops lvling and since it scales with our dmg done...

I'm well aware how envenom works, the logs I've done on my 85 evis as sub is 26% of my dmg envenom is 16% yes it increases poison procs. But I think its fair to finisher dmg is a big part of sub now which was my point to who I was replying to. At 90 the combo gen as all specs is terrible so finishers overall dmg is next nothing.

The problem with beta assassin is its much much slower at building cp's its to hard to say if it will be worth waiting on another mutilate at 4cp's. If it turns out to not be worth it Anticipation will be mostly useless as that is spec that would get the most out of it.

Sorry I wasn't trying to make it sound like you had no idea what you were talking about, it was more for the sake of future discussion and people who like quoting my post in a month or 4. But I realize I did make it sound a little bit patronizing.

I suppose only time will tell whether Anticipation is worth it or not.

Originally Posted by noralya

Which isn't relevant since there are no damaging poisons on off-hands anymore.

It is relevant because your offhand procs poisons as well. Both your weapons (main and offhand) have a chance to proc either type of poison. A slower offhand is still going to equal less poison damage in the end.

Rogues are not fine but who cares? It's not the first time that rogues start with broken talents and mechanics at the beginning of an expansion. The problems will eventually get band aid fixed with the coming content patches, maybe 5.1 or 5.2. Like in WotLK or in Cata. Here is a very good read how rogues are at level 90 at the moment: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5638004892

P.S.: Don't wait or expect any big changes in the beta, there aren't any. They are at the stage where they are balancing the numbers, the talent change and mechanics phase is over.

What I don't get is how the outrage and utter disgust towards the new talent trees from damn near everyone in the Rogue community is simply getting overlooked. If anything resembling these trees goes live Rogues will of course be the least played class yet again.

After looking at the spell animation changes posted on the news of MMO-C it makes this even more depressing. Tentacles, arcane "storms", etc. but we get a red cloud for our AoE, great!

Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

Not to sound positive or anything, but you must be looking at the old Crimson Tempest animation. The new one is pretty cool.

I mean, I like it, but it's one spell that looks cool. Other classes are getting lots of fun abilities with nice animations. I really fear that I'll get bored playing as a rogue in MOP.

Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

We need more people posting on the beta forums, the number of hunter threads is ridiculous and they just happen to get the most tweaks and fixes in every patch, the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil and we need to do a lot more squeaking. Post in threads like these that aren't qq fests and accurately and concisely describe the problems we have: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5568803681

Yeah Blizz will not admit it but the squeaky wheel will receive the most grease. :P

I also agree that whining is counter productive, but I think that is a byproduct of frustration as some beta testers have been giving back feedback for a while. Still, can't lose your composure or else Blizz will tune you out.

From my view the 90 talents can be ordinary if the rest of the tree was strong. Basically, some portion of the Rogue talent tree are prime for improvement. Also more differences between the specs other than DPS cool downs would be ideal.

Rogues are OP and have allways been that since day one. Rogues are the only class in the game that can counter&Kill other classes in 1vs1.Thus making them the only unbalanced class in the game,pvp wise. No other class have such a toolbox filled with:Stuns,CC,Damagemitigation,Escapes and on top of that,insane burstdamage,but wait, it doesnt stop there, they also have a OP selfheal with talents. So f--k all you who complains about rogues "are in a bad state bla bla blaaaaaaa! I need to say it again, its the most unbalanced class in the game and they need a huge nerf to either damageoutput or some of their stuns removed.Finnaly,it doesnt mather what anyone of you reply to me...everyone knows rogues are a big damn joke in pvp,nuff said!

Rogues are OP and have allways been that since day one. Rogues are the only class in the game that can counter&Kill other classes in 1vs1.Thus making them the only unbalanced class in the game,pvp wise. No other class have such a toolbox filled with:Stuns,CC,Damagemitigation,Escapes and on top of that,insane burstdamage,but wait, it doesnt stop there, they also have a OP selfheal with talents. So f--k all you who complains about rogues "are in a bad state bla bla blaaaaaaa! I need to say it again, its the most unbalanced class in the game and they need a huge nerf to either damageoutput or some of their stuns removed.Finnaly,it doesnt mather what anyone of you reply to me...everyone knows rogues are a big damn joke in pvp,nuff said!

I'll bite. Rogues have been not-so-powerful many times, but when that happens, people like you crawl back from the caves to say things like that.

Also, there's a big difference between being weak and being BORING, which is the problem here.

Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

I'll bite. Rogues have been not-so-powerful many times, but when that happens, people like you crawl back from the caves to say things like that.

Also, there's a big difference between being weak and being BORING, which is the problem here.

I know I love how people are crying about OP rogues bla bla but the thread is about mechanics and gameplay...

Blizz could take some hints from the initiative system for thief in GW2. Or just stack CPs on rogue instead of target. That's my main gripe... and mostly the "choices" we are given in talent tree's which are just skills that we already had and now have to choose between them or skills that should be baseline but nope they're talents lol have fun deciding what to use... what a joke

I know I love how people are crying about OP rogues bla bla but the thread is about mechanics and gameplay...

Blizz could take some hints from the initiative system for thief in GW2. Or just stack CPs on rogue instead of target. That's my main gripe... and mostly the "choices" we are given in talent tree's which are just skills that we already had and now have to choose between them or skills that should be baseline but nope they're talents lol have fun deciding what to use... what a joke

Yeah, we're choosing what skill we want to lose.
Assassination live is already not too exciting for me because I depend totally on mutilate (high energy cost) to get CPs and boring offensive CDs and I'm not a fan of combat because it's SS spam, but at least I'm pressing buttons.

Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.