In some ways, that’s sorta all you need to know. But of course, I’ve got plenty more details to dive into than just that. After all, the running focused unit doesn’t just have music, but rather all the latest features and functions that Garmin’s been adding lately – such as NFC contactless payments (Garmin Pay), latest Connect IQ app support, and finally in their high end dedicated running watch: A barometric altimeter (only the triathlon variants have had that till now).

I’ve been using a loaner beta device for almost a month now, through runs, rides, and more. Since the software isn’t quite final (though is close), I’ll wait to do my full in-depth review till later in January when it starts shipping. As such, again, this isn’t a full review. Things could get better or worse than current status, and some ancillary things I haven’t been able to test yet on it. Oh, and in case you’re new around here – I send back all these loaner devices when done with them and go out and get my own devices through normal retail channels (in fact, I’ve got a pile of devices to give back to Garmin when I see them at CES this week). Just the way I roll.

With that, let’s dive right into it!

What’s New Overview:

To get right into things, I’ve put together a bit of a video covering all of the new items in the FR645 Music, primarily compared to the existing Garmin running watches (I.e. FR630 and FR935). I cover the music, Garmin Pay, the heart rate sensor, and so on. It’s all in here – watch and share!

Still, video aside, let’s outline what’s new in the watch down below in a bulleted list. Those kinda lists are best. Now there’s two ways I could go about this. I could compare it to its older sibling – the FR630, or, I could compare it to its half-sibling, the FR935. The FR630 is a pure running watch, whereas the FR935 is a multisport watch that Garmin wanted runners to also gravitate to (as they dropped the ‘XT’ suffix off the end of it from previous multisport watches – ala FR310XT, 910XT, 920XT, etc…). Thus, for below, I’m going to roughly do both. Hang on!

Phew – got all that? If you’re familiar with the FR935/Fenix5, then basically it can just be summed up as “Added music and Garmin Pay, took away multisport/openwater modes, and advanced navigation”, roughly.

Before we dive into the music pieces, a few quick notes on size comparisons. I’ve lined up the FR630, FR645 Music, and the FR935 for a quick catwalk (left to right: FR630-FR645-FR935):

As you can see, the FR645 is smaller in width than the others, though about the same thickness. I personally like a lightweight watch (compared to say, the heavier Fenix series), so my go-to watch is normally a FR935. This feels on my wrist basically the same to that in terms of weight. So I’m happy there.

Also, as noted the bands are the same as the Vivoactive, which means they’re standard quick release style 20mm watch bands. In my case, Garmin thought it’d be funny to send me a watch with a pink band on it. And I actually wore it around for about 10 days that way. But a tall pasty looking male living in Paris with a bright pink wristband gets some odd looks, and then some odder questions/statements.

Sidebar tidbit: The pink band is technically called ‘Cerise’ by Garmin, which ironically enough, is simply French for ‘Cherry’. Secondary tidbit, you know when you see on a trendy American restaurant menu that you have ‘haricot vert’, and it sounds all fancy? That’s simply translated as ‘green beans’, it doesn’t denote any sort of cooking style or even that it’s cooked at all (while technically most French green beans are a bit thinner, that’s generally overlooked by most using the term). I apologize for popping that fancy bubble. Moving on…

So I actually swapped out my cherry for my Vivoactive 3 band, which is black. The questions and looks went away. And in that setting, it almost looks identical to the Vivoactive 3, save for the extra buttons on the FR645. Speaking of which – the FR645 screen thankfully isn’t touch screen. I’ve never been a huge touch screen fan for sports watches, and I’m glad it’s just buttons.

With the overview of what’s new covered, let’s jam right into the audio portions.

How Music Works:

Most of you will be interested in the music pieces. While certainly there’s plenty I could talk about in the watch, the vast majority of the remaining features have been seen on existing Garmin watches. I briefly cover some of the newerish features down in the next section, and in my full in-depth review I’ll dive into all the common things more deeply. But for now, let’s talk music.

Note that this only applies to the ‘Music’ variant of the FR645 (aka ‘FR645 Music’, or ‘FR645M’), it doesn’t apply to the non-music variant of the FR645, as that lacks the hardware required to have music. Which is a good point. Some will ask whether Garmin will add music to XYZ previous watch. The simple answer is almost all those watches lack two and a half core things: A) Storage for music, and B) The right Bluetooth hardware to handle music, and, to a lesser extent C) Battery planning to handle music, since it is a battery drain.

Which brings us to the FR645 Music, and it has those things. It has about 3.5GB of storage for Music. Though technically, that’s actually for Music, your workouts, and any apps you have. But realistically those non-Music things only take up a few MB in total (.001 GB). Technically the unit has 4GB, but half a gig is taken by the system. Garmin estimates about 500 songs can be stored. When you plug your FR645 into your computer, you’ll see how much music storage you have left using Garmin Express:

When it comes to transferring music to your device, it’ll arrive in a few different ways. For simple music you want to transfer that’s not all tangled up in rights protection stuff (meaning, simple MP3’s, Podcasts, etc…), you’ll just use Garmin Express on your desktop. You can see the different categories of music listed below. These are essentially just linked to different folders on your computer. So you’d link the podcasts to the podcasts folder and so on.

This design does mean that for most non-streaming music, you’ll have to update that via your computer. That’s a bit unfortunate for things like podcasts which could ostensibly be updated via WiFi as with the streaming services. Garmin is saying though that longer term they’ll look to find ways to make some of these non-streaming options (like podcasts) leverage WiFi directly.

Speaking of streaming services, Garmin is rolling out with iHeartRadio and Deezer. iHeartRadio is largely focused on the US market, while Deezer is more popular in Europe. What’s actually really interesting is how these services appear within the watch once setup. See, Garmin’s gone with a ‘Music Provider’ model, meaning that providers like iHeartRadio and Deezer can plugin to the underlying music platform in the watch, as opposed to having totally separate/complex apps (such as most other watches). For example, within the watch under providers you’ll see I have iHeartRadio and my local music listed, both as sources for music. Down the road that would also show Deezer, and perhaps further down the road other streaming/music platforms.

At present, with iHeartRadio the playlists are updated via WiFi, which is pretty cool. So as long as you’re near one of the WiFi networks you’ve configured in the watch for general use (I.e. uploading workouts), it’ll upload that way.

But let’s talk more generally about how music works first. To get music playing on the watch you’ll first need to pair Bluetooth wireless headphones (or any Bluetooth device – even a car). There’s no music speaker on the watch itself, so it’s gotta go out via Bluetooth. To pair headphones you’ll go to the same place you’d pair sensors and such, and you’ll see it listed there:

You’ll enable pairing mode on your headphones and then a few seconds later the watch will find it:

You can have multiple headphones paired/saved, which is kinda cool (many watches don’t support that). For example, I’ve paired the PowerBeat’s, the Fitbit Flyer headphones, an Amazon speaker and some generic branded MPOW headphones.

Garmin has a list of validated headphones, but that doesn’t mean yours won’t work if it’s not on the list. It’s just simply ones they’ve validated/tested.

With headphones all saved, you’ll wander back to the music widget. This is accessible anytime by pressing the up/down buttons:

If in a workout, you can add the music page to your workout data pages just like you might add other data pages.

Once on the music page you’ll see a bunch of options. The first is ‘manage’, where you can configure music providers (I.e. iHeartRadio, Deezer, saved music, etc…) as well as manage your headphones.

Next, you have ‘Source’, which selects from the music providers, or to simply control music on your phone instead. Within a given source, you’ll see playlists, artists, albums, songs, genres, podcasts, and audio books (depending on the source of course).

Back on the main controls page you’ve got a volume icon to increase/decrease volume, as well as play/skip/back/repeat/shuffle buttons:

Once you’ve started playing a given playlist/source/album/whatever, it’ll go to this main screen which shows the current song information:

When in a workout, it all works almost identically, except that you can long-hold the lower left button to go directly to the detailed music control page.

So how’s connectivity and how well does it work? Overall, pretty good. I’ve been using it with the various headphones noted above, and things work well. One catch, anytime you talk about headphones and watches (since the beginning of time) is that every headphone out there has one side that’s considered the master/communications side (I.e. left or right). In general, things work better when the watch is on the same side as that.

For example, on the Beats I’ve been using, that master side appears to be the left side. For one run I was wearing the watch on my left wrist. When I was running, I had no dropouts at all. But, if I stopped running and walked (so my wrist went down to my waist), and then tilted my head to the right a bit – that tiny bit extra put it out of range and I’d get drops (remember, I’m fairly tall). When I tried the watch on my right wrist instead, I got constant drop-outs.

Again, anyone has used various headphone with watches knows that these sorts of quirks are 100% par for the course. Some headphones are better than others, and Garmin’s list shows which ones work best and in what configuration. Other companies like TomTom, Polar, and more all have similar lists, and it’s pretty easy to see the trends in them on which headphones have the best connectivity. Obviously, that’s also a balance on Garmin’s side too in terms of power management. This isn’t a car or a plugged in stereo, thus, battery life power management is a balance in any wearable.

Oh, and last but not least, while in a workout, when you press the lap button (or if auto-lap is configured), then you’ll get audio alerts for that lap. The music will cut out, and then a voice pipes in with the current lap time/pace/etc depending on how you have it configured. Basically, just like every other music-running app/device has worked for years.

Finally, for those geeks in the house, when plugged into a computer, the unit shows up as a MTP device (Media Transfer Protocol), which is sorta a cross between a generic USB drive and one focused purely on music. Though, you can force it to a straight USB drive via settings if you want.

Technically, there’s two ‘portions’ to how it appears. The first is the music section/folder/drive/whatever (called Media), and the second is the typical Garmin one (called Primary). The ‘primary’ one is where you’ll find the workout files and such. Again, a typical user probably doesn’t care about this, but geeks like me might (ok, geeks definitely want to know this).

Another random geeky note – the cable for the FR645 Music is identical looking to that of the FR630. Except internally it’s not. The older cable (for the FR30/35/230/235/630/735XT) they found was causing some issues when transferring music, and thus had to be redesigned for a higher current. If you plug in the watch with an older cable it’ll charge just fine, but it won’t enumerate on your computer for transfers (of any type). You’ll get an error message on the watch.

Just a minor heads up for those in a multi-cable family like myself that you might want to mark that one as the golden child (it officially will also have ‘1A’ marked on it somewhere). But I marked it for now with a simple zip-tie.

Phew – got all that?!? Good!

If not, drop a question down in the comments and I’ll be happy to try it out. Note that at present the Deezer app isn’t available to me to try, and the iHeartRadio app that I have is setup using a test account to a specific playlist, so I can’t tweak much in it yet (since I’m not on Garmin’s internal networks). That’ll likely change shortly though and I’ll be able to dig into some of the specifics there more deeply. Like I said, this isn’t a review, just an overview. Review later this month assuming they start shipping then.

A Sample Run:

Again, let me preface this section that the device I have is beta. My understanding is the hardware is final, but the software is in progress. Since originally receiving it I’ve had multiple updates, almost daily in the last week. As with all beta device/updates (be it Garmin, Apple, or GoPro), things tend to shift rapidly. Often it’s a case of two steps forward, one step back. Overall, things are pretty good, but there’s still some quirks I’m seeing (as is common on every device I beta test).

I simply picked them because they’re the two most recent runs, and thus have the most recent beta firmware.

The main run I’ve got is an interval run from Friday. I started off with a simple build period, and then went into 5×3 minutes, with 90s rest. This is a good time period to validate stability of the HR readings at both work and recovery. At the end of the main set I did 4x30s sprints, again, as a good validation of how quickly the HR reacts. First, we’ll look at HR:

It’s sometimes funny to me what fails and what works on any given run. In the last week I’ve had runs where both the TICKR-X and Polar H7 straps have shown randomly weird things. In this run, it was the TICKR-X’s turn. You can see that while it did better than the FR645 in the first 45 seconds, for the next 16 minutes or so, the FR645 and TICKR-FIT were properly aligned – while the TICKR-X chest strap took a vacation or something. After that though, for the intervals, the three units captured the work portion of the intervals well, though, the FR645 didn’t quite capture the recovery portion as well after #1 and #2. Coming off of number #3/#4, it did fine.

On the 30-second sprints at the end, it was basically a crapshoot of which unit was least accurate on any given interval. However, I will say that for the first time in a bunch of runs, the TICKR-FIT was the most accurate on the sprints.

You can see below that on some intervals the TICKR-X missed the boat, while in others the FR645 missed the boat.

Interestingly, I actually had much better luck two days prior with the FR645/TICKR-X on other short intervals…go figure.

Next, we’ll look at the GPS portion of that run. The area of Amsterdam I was staying in (like much of central Amsterdam) tops out at about 4-6 stories tall with mostly older buildings. I started off along a canal with buildings directly next to me on one side. After 2-3 minutes I was into the expansive Vondelpark. This time of year most of the trees are bare, though certainly more than present with branches and such. Here’s the overview:

In looking at the track, you can see that it started off a bit wonky in the canal. I had ‘green’ on the satellites for quite a while (since I was waiting for another watch to figure itself out). So I’m surprised it showed wonky at the beginning. I’d run this section half a dozen times in the previous week without issue on this watch or any other.

Once past that point, GPS was pretty good. There’s a little bit of offset in the park in one direction in one section (the bottom-middle of the image below), by about 5-10 meters. It was consistently offset each loop in this same spot, though I’m not sure why as there’s no change in trees.

Otherwise, the track for that run looked pretty good. For fun, here’s a previous track from a few days prior. You’ll see the track looks better in the canal area, and I ran through other building areas without issue (in fact, the FR645 gave the best track). HR on that workout was perfectly fine too.

Both runs the temperature was in the 40-50°F (4-10°C) range. Overcast, though rather windy on the oldest of the two runs.

I’ll add in more runs from Vegas over the course of the week. I had attempted a run yesterday morning, but alas, something went amiss and my different watches recorded from the wrong HR straps…so basically, I’ve got a pile of duplicate data. Sigh…

Note: I haven’t tested 3rd party accessories. Specifically Stryd or RunScribe on the FR645 yet for the very simple reason that when testing a beta device and not on Garmin’s internal networks, I can’t access any CIQ apps. Once the device shows as a valid device on Garmin’s production system, then I can add those apps and validate for any connectivity concerns. Usually that happens within 24-48 hours of announcement. I tried using .PRG files as a workaround, but it didn’t seem to work out, so, gotta wait for things to show up normally first. Sorry!

(Note: All of the charts in these accuracy sections were created using the DCR Analyzer tool. It allows you to compare power meters/trainers, heart rate, cadence, speed/pace, GPS tracks and plenty more. You can use it as well for your own gadget comparisons, more details here.)

Product Comparisons:

I’ve added the Garmin FR645 to the product comparison tool below. I didn’t bother adding the separate music/non-music variants, but just noted in the single line item where it mattered that one has music and one doesn’t. Comparing the FR645 to other models on the market is a bit tough since it’s a high end running watch, and most of the music-laden running watches on the market are more mid-range (I.e. Apple Watch, Fitbit Ionic, Polar M600, Samsung Gear Sport, etc…). This is really the first watch by a traditional sports company that’s got music in it (since Polar/Suunto/Garmin have no other music capable watches, beyond the Polar M600).

In any case, you can mix and match and make your own comparison chart within the massive product comparison tool here, in case the quick four I’ve selected below isn’t what you want. Thus, I’ve picked the new Garmin Vivoactive 3 that came out a couple months ago, the Apple Watch Series 3, and the FR935 to compare against. Again, it’s not really a perfect lineup, but any more than 4 watches and things look all funky below.

Oh – and for lack of anywhere else to mention it – note that this is a bit stripped down from a Fenix 5. For example, you don’t have as many navigational options like you do there. Nor is there a multisport mode like on the multisport watches (FR935/Fenix5). Also, there’s no native openwater swimming mode either – just a pool mode. As well as no power meter support. And also, no maps like there is on the Fenix 5X. There are likely some other nuances and differences, but those are the biggies.

Wrap-Up:

As I said in the beginning, this is not a review – for the very simple reason the product isn’t done yet and I tend to like to wait until it’s final (software/hardware) before releasing a review. Still, I’ve got many hours of experience here to give the gist of things – it’s been on my wrist virtually 24×7 since mid-December (save removing it for a couple videos I shot so you wouldn’t know it was there!).

Overall, this is definitely the right step forward for Garmin. And no doubt you’re saying ‘Finally!’. Unlike contactless payments or optical HR sensors, I don’t think we’ll see music standard on every new Garmin watch for the near term, I think that baseline is probably another 12-18 months away (primarily because Android Wear was leading the charge in dropping the price points there, but new meaningful entrants there have mostly dried up as of late).

The music piece works well (note again that my time on the streaming pieces specifically has been super limited), and I’m interested in seeing where Garmin takes the music side of the platform going forward – perhaps making it a bit more cloud-centric as opposed to desktop-centric. Though, Fitbit and others are really much the same here today unfortunately. On the new running-specific portions, everything we’ve seen is pretty much stuff we’ve seen over the last 12 months with the Garmin Fenix 5/FR935/Vivoactive 3. All of which have largely been well received.

Obviously, Garmin Pay will continue to be a slow boat for a while, mainly due to limited bank support (same as Fitbit too). They say they’ve got a flotilla of banks lined up in 2018, including some major ones. But like others in the space, it’s just gonna be a waiting game till your bank shows up.

Will I use this as my primary running watch? I don’t know. Long-time readers know I’m actually not a big running with music person, but that’s largely because I was sick and tired of dealing with loading songs manually from a PC (so I ended up with the same songs every run for months). With streaming platforms, things update automagically, so it makes it more appealing. On the flip-side, as a multisport athlete, I want sports like openwater swimming and multisport mode, as well as power meter support (mainly the FR935). So this watch doesn’t quite fit me personally, but I’d have no issues recommending it to a runner that wants music.

With that – stay tuned for my full in-depth review once it starts shipping later this month, it’ll no doubt be packed full of data and more opinions.

Thanks for reading!

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Note: If you found this review useful, you can help support the site using Clever Training. You can pre-order the FR645 or FR645 Music from them, either in the US or in Europe/UK. If you use the DCR CT/VIP program, you can receive 10% back in points, plus free expedited shipping (regular free shipping applies to any FR645 order). I appreciate the support!

Definitely not the Fenix 5/5S (no storage). While I somewhat suspect the 5X probably does have the right guts to pull it off, I think it’s a fairly safe bet Garmin won’t put the effort into enabling it there (hence my ‘almost’ caveat).

I was at CES and played with the 645 a bit. One thing I noticed is that all the units on the floor had scratched-up bezels. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t release a non-metal bezel version on a running-specific watch. Plus it would be lighter …

Oh, and how’s the bluetooth range? My VA3’s bluetooth range is about 1 room so like 6 meters. Pretty crappy. I would love a longer range, then a couple bluetooth required apps would be a bit more useful.

Thanks for the first look Ray. It’s cool that they’ve added some of the features of the 935 to a more run focused watch. Although, with regards to form factor, if they’re able to reduce the bezel around the screen (which from the pictures is what it looks like they’ve done) I think I’d have preferred a larger screen (and possibly a thinner watch) rather than the same screen in a smaller diameter.

Music wise – Meh. Not enough compatibility to make it worth buying this rather than just taking a phone. I also imagine it would be tricky to find a song you wanted if you drastically changed your mind about what you wanted to listen to on the go.

Yeah, for most music wearables, it’s really more about choosing a given playlist to play from. Though, Garmin is better than most in terms of being able to fairly easily select a given artist/genre/etc…

Currently I use a Sansa mp3 player while running. I have my playlist, but depending on how things are going during a run, I will often bump forward or backward in the play list, or sometimes repeat one song several times in a row. This is relatively easy to do using the two buttons (backward/forward) on the Sansa. Clipped on my waste, I just reach down and by feel hit the buttons. And it doesn’t interfere with what my 920xt is doing or displaying.

I wonder how that would work on the new 645m? Lets say the 645m is playing each song in the playlist, and I decide after a song completes, to replay it. Or during a song, I decide to bump forward in the playlist to reach a different song. I wonder if I can just hit a back/forward button on the 645m. Or would I need to navigate into some screen while running. And I wonder if I am bumping through songs, if the running metrics screen goes away.

Basically, I am intrigued by the idea of having music on the watch, long as it doesn’t cause issues in terms of usage, which for me the watch is all about knowing I can look down and it is tracking my metrics. I would not like while running to be playing with the watch to make some music change, and then mess up my run tracking or something like that.

Will be interesting to see the future full review. Also I hope earbud makers can make smaller wireless earbuds. I have a bluetooth earbud set but the earpieces are so big and stick out far compared to my wired earbuds. Not sure I would want to run a marathon with big earbuds sticking out of each ear.

Hi Ray is the battery life still at 8 hours+ without music? Just last night a car crossed the pavement outside my house and crashed into a neighbors car. Bloke was as drunk as a scunk and promptly arrested. I’m happily sans music

Just as a minor update on battery life, Garmin’s engineering team actually just updated the numbers (about an hour after announcement/release) to slightly better battery life numbers for non-music. They are:

14 hours for the FR645 Music in GPS mode 16 hours for the FR645 (non-Music) in GPS mode

Apparently some architecture differences account for the slightly higher battery life of the non-music variant.

I’m told the official manuals will show these numbers shortly, as will various other Garmin spec sheets/etc…

Correct. You can use a FR645 cable with a FR630/735/etc just fine. And you can even use an older cable to charge the FR645 just fine. But to transfer anything (even workouts), you’ll need the newer cable.

// I don’t think we’ll see music standard on every new Garmin watch for the near term, I think that baseline is probably another 12-18 months away

Any Comments from UCI and Triathlon reglements on that? At least for German triathlons I know there’s a strict ban on any music playback devices. So it might end up in a discussion on “music enabled devices”, Smartphones are banned.

A step in the right direction but nothing I have read would convince me to buy yet. I listen to podcasts mainly and I really don’t like the idea of updating all the time via express. Hopefully the wireless updates become a reality even if you could do it via garmin connect eg like sending workouts to your watch.

Having switched from multi-sport to running this watch seems a really good swap from my previous fave 935. Having small wrists it ticks that box, then it gets tricky for me, having signed up for an ultra distance race I would love to have music integrated into my fitness watch. Damn, 5 hours on the batter life 🙁 I guess I’ll be staying with an ipod shuffle and a watch capable of 20 hours in GPS mode. Wishful thinking on the 645M – nice watch though, love the styling, size and price point.

Great review as always Ray. I understand that Garmin needs to differentiate their products but the lack of openwater swimming capabilities while the watch is able to track pool swimming puzzles me a bit from a product placement point of view. cheers from Switzerland Nicolas

Yes, I was annoyed the Vivoactive 3 didn’t have open water swimming either. It really seems like a strange move from a product placement standpoint. Certainly open water swimming is a more common “regular user” sport than Stand Up Paddle-boarding or other sports the VA 3 or this has. It also would be necessary if someone were looking for primarily a swim watch. Requiring their high end watches for this seems strange. However, I think that the reason they exclude OWS is that if the code were there then Connect IQ apps could access it to pretty trivially create a triathlon app. I just don’t think that any of that drives sales and I, for one, will not consider this or the VA 3 without it. I’ll keep the VA HR and use my Apple Watch (which does open water swim, although I don’t know how well yet) for swimming and music.

The VA3 is the top of the line activity tracker and therefore targeted at more casual exercisers. From my personal experience I know a lot more people who casually SUP and swim laps than open water swim.

For most people open water swimming is when they slash around at the beach or lake front instead of swimming point-to-point or long-ish out-n-backs.

I completely disagree with both your points. First, the VA line is Garmin’s top fitness sport tracking watch. It is just not oriented to the ‘pro’ or competitive cyclists and runners, for running at various levels there is the FR series and then the xt and Fenix series for triathletes. The VA 3 now includes training plans. The Garmin Swim hasn’t been updated for over 5 years, and I don’t believe does outdoor swimming. Secondly, swimming for fitness is one of the most popular forms of exercise, indoors and out. See –link to phitamerica.org for the US, and I suspect even more so globally. SUP, interestingly, shows the most growth but is about 1/20th as popular as swimming. They don’t break down indoors vs outdoors, but certainly a large percentage of swimming is outdoors. Outdoor swimming also would benefit significantly from a good tracker, even more than indoors, so a great way to differentiate from Fitbit or Apple Watch (both of which have or plan to have OWS, although not as accurate as Garmin).

Its already ready. Garmin doesnt put all the features in the same year. They could have easily put NFC chips and music storage in the Fenix series last year but they knew then they would update the series this year to make money. Maybe next year Garmin will have the headline “New Galileo satellites”. They know what they are doing years ahead of time

It is not ready. Right now, there are 14 fully operational satellites, and 4 more in commissioning – so if that goes well, it’ll be 18 in a few months. It won’t be complete until there are 24 up there. Right now the performance on the test receivers using Galileo only is OK most of the time, but occasionally terrible. See the quarterly reports on initial services at this link. For the moment, it’s a potentially useful augmentation to GPS performance (but then, the same is true for Glonass, and a lot of people just leave that off on Garmin watches…) but the improved accuracy probably isn’t going to show up until there have been a few more launches. And, as that’s dual-frequency, it’s going to need more complicated antenna design.

Are there any watches out there (bar the new Garmin Foretrex units) which already support Galileo? Genuine question – I’d be quite tempted to have one to play with once there are 18 satellites in use.

in 12th dicember 2017 the Galileo satellites are 22. Just one other launch and it is complete

For a post by the ESA, that is weirdly overoptimistic about some things.

There are 22 satellites in orbit, yes, but only 14 of them are providing useful data right now, as I said above. See this page and its links. 14 are up, in the correct orbits and transmitting usable data. Four are, as your image says, undergoing 6 months of tests before they’ll join that constellation. Two were launched into eccentric orbits, which have been somewhat corrected, but it’s not clear that they’ll ever contribute normally to Galileo – they’ve been sending test signals for more than a year now. GSAT0104 had power failures and will never transmit anything useful again. GSAT0204 is currently out of use for constellation management (presumably designated a spare, it’s not clear).

Four more will be launched mid or Q3 2018, depending which source you believe, then will need another 6 months of commissioning, like the December launches. If GSAT0204 comes back online then, you’d have 23 online with no spares other than the ones in odd orbits.

That means that, possibly, in a year from now, you’ll have 23/24 satellites operating, with no spares. This is why I say it’s not ready yet; because it won’t be ready until 2019 🙂

To be clear, what I’m saying is that the extra accuracy we’re all probably hoping to see with Galileo won’t be reliably available until 2019, though Mike’s comment about extra satellites in urban canyons is quite right.

Kyle, true, but I have a Moto Z with phenomenal battery life and I don’t want to give that up for a phone that supports Galileo 🙂

Do you think that with Galileo in GPS watches the instant pace feature will be better, especially under trees or in difficult areas? Or it will be the same? I read a review of the Garmin Foretrex 601, and I could read that GPS accuracy is better than the Fenix. But we have to understand if it dependes on the fact that it uses also the Galileo Satellites, or because it’s bigger and has better GPS antennas. Probably bigger units like the Garmin Foretrex are more accurate than smaller units like GPS watches for the design of the antenna. So maybe the use of the Galileo satellites will not change anything in practice, like the Glonass Satellites. DC Rainmaker says that a lot of people leave the option GLONASS off in their Garmin watches.

I’m somewhat optimistic. Dual frequency signals (freely available on Galileo) help compensate ionospheric errors better than civilian GPS, and the E5 signal on Galileo is cunningly designed to reduce multipath errors, which have a lot to do with urban canyon/tree issues – GPS/Glonass can’t identify multipath signals and reject them as easily. So all else being equal, a watch of a given size should do better with Galileo. But if you have poor sky view and you need GPS satellites as well as Galileo to have enough for a 3D fix, then maybe it won’t help much, because you’ll still have multipath errors on GPS.

I leave Glonass off myself. It probably helps when you have a very narrow sky view, but the geometry is awkward for positioning then anyway, and narrow views tend to lead to a lot of multipath reflections anyway.

@Mirko I’m curious, what watch are you using? I use the VA HR and find the instant pace generally terrific, even in tree cover. I think they must have algorithms that work off the accelerometer if the GPS data is suspect. I can use it to keep a pretty steady pace even in the woods. Haven’t tried it much around tall buildings, but I assume the corrections would work there as well. (Apple Watch, btw, not so much)

Hi Mike, I’m using two watches of Garmin. The first is the old Garmin Forerunner 610. It is some years old, and I find that it is very good in measuring the exact distance. When it has a good lock with the satellites, it beeps exactly where I have the kilometer mark on my preferred road. This watch doesn’t have an accelerometer and the instant pace feature is very very bad, so with this watch I use the lap pace that gives me the expected pace for the kilometer and is very good for steady run. The second watch that I use is the Garmin Fererunner 35. This watch is circa one year old. I find that it is a little less accurate than the Garmin Forerunner 610, because it usually doesn’t beep exactly in correspondence of the kilometer marks in the street. Sometimes it beeps earlier, sometimes later, and at the end the total distance is usually exactly the same of the other watch the Garmin Forerunner 610. I think that the Forerunner 35 uses algorithms that uses as input data the GPS signals and the data of the accelerometer. The istant pace feature in the Garmin Forerunner 35 is very good and with this watch I don’t need to use the “lap pace” function. There are two situation where I would like to see an improvement: 1- The accuracy of the “instant pace” of the Garmin Forerunner35 is particolarly true for steady run. When I do intervals training where the speed change very rapidly, I see that the instant pace feature of the Garmin Forerunner 35 isn’t in reality an INSTANT pace, but an average of the last 20 seconds. So for short intervals the insant pace isn’t so accurate. Usually good athlethes for short repetition use some mark at 100m, 200m etc and they look at their time so they understand if they are going too fast or too slow in that interval. I’m lazy and I don’t want to do calculation, so I wish I could trust more the instant pace of my watch even in short repetion of 400 m or 800 m. 2- I usually run in bycicle line along a river. There is a kilometer where there are a lot of trees and in that point I see that the Forerunner 610 and Forerunner 35 are often less accurate for instant pace. They usually beep in the exact position at the end of the kilometer, but when I run there the instant pace is often wrong. Unfortunately this is the place where I do all my intervals and where I run most often in the summer, because I want the shadow of the trees to protect me from the warm of the sun and is the most beautiful place to run (no cars, no building).

The new Garmin Foretrex 601 has two options: The first is to choose between these satellites: 1-GPS 2-GPS+GLONASS 3-GPS+GALILEO So there is no GALILEO alone, but only working toghether with GPS

The second option is WAAS on or WAAS off. WAAS increases accuracy but probably also energy consumption. It would be interesting to know if it is possible to introduce WAAS also in GPS watches or if there are hardware limitations (for example design of the antenna, or energy consumption). I don’t think that Fenix and Forerunner 935 are using WAAS. Garmin says that with WAAS accuracy improves from 10 meters (GPS only)to 3 meters (GPS+WAAS)

That’s interesting information, Mirko. I do think, however, that the best accuracy for running (not so much for cycling, sailing or other faster moving sports) can be achieved by using the accelerometers, the historical stride length and the GPS data. I wonder if Garmin is using different algorithms for the FR 610, FR 35 and VA HR. I am definitely not getting a 20 sec avg for instant pace as it changes within 1 to 2 seconds when I accelerate or stop. Videos that Ray has done show similar results with the higher end watches. Distance recording is, I think, also using algorithms to get more accurate results, but not necessarily the same ones used for pace. I have lately been comparing with my Apple Watch and both pace and distance are more accurate on the Garmin and pretty close to what I measure on a map (so similar to your km markers). I agree that getting much more accurate GPS data to begin with would help, but if you can’t see the satellites (ie. dense tree cover) no amount of satellites will help. Garmin has been at this for a while, I would love to hear what they have to say on this. Although I kind of suspect this is their “secret sauce”. 😉 Maybe Ray has some insight.

FORERUNNER 610 ( a lot of years ago) It was high-end sport watch of some years ago. I think that the old Garmin Forerunner 610 doesn’t have an accelerometer inside, and the instant pace rely only on GPS. When GPS reception is fine, instant pace is also fine, when it has trouble, instant pace is awful. I tried to use a footpod as speed source, but I gave up because I didn’t manage to correctly calibrate it. In the old Forerunner 610 you had to calibrate it manually, but when I change speed I change also cadence so I realized that the calibration was effective just for a certain speed. The new high end watches have the ability to calibrate the footpod themselves continuously with the GPS signal. In the Forerunner 610 “lap pace” was just fine (the expected average in 1 km)

FORERUNNER 35 It’s a low price sport watch of two years ago. I repeat that I’m very happy of the Forerunner 35. For instant pace it uses GSP and accelerometer and for normal runs I find it accurate. My only observation is that when I run sometimes I feel that the instant pace is a little slow to react to my change in speed, especially under tree coverage, but it could be that high-end watches uses other algorithms. I writed that I think that it makes an average of 20 seconds, but I just tried to guess, it could be that it is an average of 5 or 10 seconds.

VIVOACTIVE HR Mike you have the Vivoactive HR 3 that is more recent than the Forerunner 35 and another price range, so I think that should be better and probably it uses better algorithm for instant pace than Forerunner 35, and it is likely that instant pace of the Vivoactive HR 3 is better than the instant pace of the Forerunner 35. For sure instant pace of Vivoactive HR 3 is not worse of instant pace of Forerunner 35, and in any case I repeat that I’m quite happy with instant pace of the the Forerunner 35.

My question is if the Galileo satellites could help in practice to improve accuracy in difficult condition. In the previous post Dom was optimistic, even with trees, because Galileo uses two frequency and can eliminate multipath errors. But he said that the watch should use only Galileo satellites and not GPS satellites. Maybe Garmin hasn’t introduced Galileo yet in GPS watches because there is no serious advantage, but this is the thing that I really do not want! Garmin introduced Galileo satellites in the Foretrex 601, but it has to work with GPS and not alone, and in this case Dom said that the advantage of the Galileo satellites could be lost. I’m waiting to upgrade to a Forerunner 935 or a Forerunner 645, but I was expecting that Garmin give Galileo support to their high-end watches. Or next year I will want to change watch again!

I think there may be more than one way to use the Galileo data. One would be for additional satellite data to use with GPS, the other would be to use it as intended, by itself, and then use the results to modify your GPS result. The second may be how Garmin is using it, but not allowing use only by itself since there are not enough satellites for continual coverage? Just a thought.

Garmin gives few information about this, so I think we have to try to guess it 🙂 In the high end watches there are now just these option: GPS (where with GPS they intend they are using just the USA NAVSTAR satellites) GPS+GLONASS (they use the USA NAVSTAR satellites and the russian GLONASS) The user can’t choose GLONASS alone. I answer myself why there isn’t the possibility for the user to select only GLONASS. I think that the user in the future will not have the possibility to choose to use just the Galileo satellites, even when the Galileo satellites will be complete, but GPS+GALILEO Indeed, this is the only possibility in the new Garmin Foretrex 601 (you don’t have the option GALILEO alone).. Dom in the previous post writed “But if you have poor sky view and you need GPS satellites as well as Galileo to have enough for a 3D fix, then maybe it won’t help much, because you’ll still have multipath errors on GPS.” So it seems that it should be better when using Galileo satellites to avoid to use the NAVSTAR GPS satellites. My fear now is that also the Galileo satellites won’t help much, like the Glonass satellites now are not helping so much in practice. A lot of users, Dom included, leave Glonass off to save battery, probably because the accuracy improvement is negligible with Glonass compared to using NAVSTAR GPS alone.

I think a lot of this will depend on the chip design and algorithmic choices. With multi-constellation fixes, the chips treat the satellites as equivalent, just using effectively one satellite’s worth of data to correct for clock differences between the constellations. For a dual-frequency-capable chip, it would be perfectly possible to prioritise the Galileo signals over the GPS ones if there are enough Galileo satellites visible, maintaining the signal lock on the GPS satellites and a rough fix to help identify GPS signals that are likely to be multipath and to be able to use the direct signals quickly when needed.

DF Galileo is less noisy than either GPS or GLONASS, so it should always improve positioning.

The Apple Watch 3 has support for Galileo satellites. In DC Rainmaker review I read that the GPS accuracy of the Apple Watch 3 is not spectacular. It seems that Galileo doesn’t work so well with Apple, let’s hope for the other brands (Garmin, Suunto, Polar).

I’m now thinking we may not see dual-frequency watches this year. I came across some publicity for Broadcomm’s new BCM47755 and 47758 chips recently, and they make a big thing of the 55 (which is intended for smartphones) being the first such chip to support dual-frequency (see here, here and here. So it looks as though none of the chips currently on the market support that, and there’s no chance of the current watches being updated in firmware for sub-metre accuracy. (There have been multiband GPS receivers for ages, but they’re generally large, costly, and meant for military applications which can decode the military GPS signals – units small enough for phones and wearables are new). There’s another Broadcomm chip, the BCM47758, which is intended for things like smartwatches. I found a Korean teardown of the Samsung Gear Sport which says the -58 is in it, but the photos are such poor quality I can’t tell, and it seems surprising for a device like that to come out such a short time after the announcement.

Interesting to know that if a chipset supports Galileo, it doesn’t mean that it also supports dual frequency. The Mediatek chipset that Garmin uses for its watches are Galileo compatible, like you can see in the immagine attached. But probably it doesn’t support dual frequency, but just one frequency. In the spec sheet is not clear, but in the Broadcomm sheet is clearly indicated that their chipset support dual frequency, so the Mediatek chipset probably support just one frequency. I also believe that current watches with mediatek chipset have no chance being updated in firmware for dual frequency. Good to know that we have to wait a little bit for a sport watch with dual frequency: they must produce a really different unit with a different processor capable of two frequencies, a processor with less energy consumption, and a new design for the antennas. A lot of work to do… I will wait a little more for my new watch 🙂

link to navigation-professionell.de In this review they write that “in our opinion the GPS accuracy of the Foretrex can not be compared with a handheld like the GPSmap64s, but it is a tad better than the Fenix 5X”.

The Garmin Foretrex 601 supports Galileo satellites. Dom, do you know wich chipset is inside the Garmin Foretrex 601? Do you think that it supports dual-frequency or it supports only one frequency like the old Mediatek chipset?

I imagine he’d answer if he knew for sure that the already released Foretrex was dual frequency! I don’t know what chip it is, but I haven’t found anything apart from the Broadcomm chip which is definitely dual frequency and small enough to fit in something like a Foretrex.

Hey Ray, thanks for the review. Was wondering if the non music version has more battery life as the space that would be used for a storage chip could perhaps be used for a larger battery? Also, how long are you typically going on a single charge?

“Oh, and last but not least, while in a workout, when you press the lap button (or if auto-lap is configured), then you’ll get audio alerts for that lap. The music will cut out, and then a voice pipes in with the current lap time/pace/etc depending on how you have it configured. Basically, just like every other music-running app/device has worked for years.”

Yes, but Im asking, is it posipple to get automatic hrm announcments every 20-30 seconds without tapping and using the hands. I get those announcments when I use the Wahoo Fitness app on my iPhone, but I like to run without my phone.

The Forerunner 645M offers Audio Prompts without being paired to a smartphone. You can set Lap, Pace/Speed, and Heart Rate alerts. You can also set the frequency. Lap is set by default but it can be changed to alert starting at 1 minute intervals.

Given that the music variant only costs $50 more on an already $400 watch I can’t see much reason for anyone to buy the base model. Do you know if the base has different hardware or is Garmin simply disabling features in firmware?

I run with my phone as well. Usually podcasts. But if I was going to spend $400 on a new watch I’d happily pay $50 for the audio lap summaries. That would assume they get more/better streaming support. I wouldn’t ditch my phone until they add LTE/live track though.

If the base was $350 that would make more sense to me. Music/audio feedback isn’t worth $100. On the other hand $50 is easy. I’m wondering if both watches have the same guts and Garmin doesn’t have much motivation to sell me on the best unit.

After thinking about it a bit more, I think there’s a good chance I’d get the music version. However, I’ve still got no interest in the features that the music version offers. One simple reason – resale ability!

If and when I go to sell the watch in 18-24 months it will be an easier sale with the music version.

Can’t you already get basically the same thing as the lap summaries through the garmin app anyway? Pretty sure you can set it up to tell you stuff at mile points? Maybe it doesn’t do it at lap button press. I kind of skipped over that section because I don’t even use that feature now. Just look at your watch…

@Andrew Given the difference in battery life, I think the non-music version doesn’t have the extra memory (maybe Ray or someone at CES could ask Garmin). Whether that could be used for anything else (CIQ, maps) is unclear.

I have a 630 and it will perioidically tell me when it detects a new Lactate Threshold for running and keeps track of my lactate threshold pace / hr in my “My Stats” – (and I can see how that value has changed over time in the Garmin Connect app or on the website) – does the 645 / 935 do something more advanced with regards to lactate threshold?

As a runner and not a multisport athlete this seems perfect (non-music version). However, as someone that does ultras the first thing I scrolled to find was battery life – 12 hours just isn’t enough. If it’d been 24 hours like my 935 I would have bought one immediately.

Any idea if it can be charged while in GPS mode? This would make it more palatable. Love the smaller form factor and it’s a bit more stylish for everyday wear vs. the 935.

That’s a game changer, as I love the smaller size and music so if I can charge using a lightweight high capacity battery then we have device for ultras that’s got on board music… My next quandary, shuffle plus 935 weight Vs 645 and a charging unit… Might be over thinking it though!! Oh and cables running down my arm 🙁 anyway, cracking watch ?

The OHR sensor is disabled while charging due to the potential for inaccurate heart rate data while attached to the charging clip. The watch will be slightly lifted from the skin and increase the potential for outside light pollution.

I’d be all over it with Google Play music support and pocket casts. I particularly want to just listen to podcasts on solo runs. If I could just quickly transfer a podcast from my phone to the watch and then fish my phone that’d be great. I currently never run with my phone.

I agree. GPM and Pocket Casts are one of the best products on Android. Unfortunately Ray uses mostly Apple so he probably doesn’t understand this. If you use GPM compared to Spotify you will see its far superior product. Everyone for me atleast except for my parents and users over the age of 40 are using Pandora and Spotify less and less. Also, Garmin only using “downloaded” music and iheartradio, its kinda useless to be honest.

If there’s zero chance of Google Music or Apple Music, and Spotify or Pandora seem unlikely anytime soon (from the comments I’ve seen here), where does that leave things from a streaming perspective for the FR645? If it’s just iHeartRadio and Deezer for the foreseeable future, then it’s not great for folks who don’t already subscribe to those services. The only other option I suppose would be unprotected (e.g. purchased) music, though not sure how much interest there is. Am I missing anything here or is the music outlook rather underwhelming for 645?

I have the mighty, trust me – it’s anything but mighty. The sound quality is awful, and half the time i use it – either the battery is dead or it somehow lost its synch with Spotify and needs to be re-linked. I’ve shelved it, and regretfully resorted to carrying my phone during workouts. If Garmin executes this well, it will get a lot of interest – but needs better music sources.

I think this is one specific feature that’s more generic to be honest. The underlying code for updating songs via WiFi is already there for apps like Spotify and Deezer, which is far more complex (auth/etc) than dealing with pointing to a generic Podcast feed and downloading what’s new.

Either way, I don’t expect this to specifically be a deal breaker for anyone.

This looks beautiful – fantastic looking watch. Its really the Fenix 5 in a slightly smaller, non-plastic case. Or a 935-metal ? I like the ability to properly control music – shuffle etc. I wonder if this will make it to the 935. Not shuffle music on the watch, as it obviously doesnt support watch-stored music, but the ability to have greater control of the device playing the music. I’d love to be able to scroll and select playlists etc stored on a host device – ie through google music. On a similar note (hehe – see what I did there!) I dont suppose many people have actual music files that they own these days. These streaming devices really need to support the streaming services. Mighty does offline Spotify – but the battery life is life would make it unusable for me, and plus I am google music subscriber and that isnt yet supported. I’m really hoping someone comes along with the ‘Pebble Core’ – a refined Mighty, with good battery life (30+ hours) and wider services support.

I think you missed the “back to start” functionality and the compass type in Comparison tool for 645 – what are these parameters? You also mentioned the advanced navigational stuff was taken out. When compared to 935 (not the Fenix with maps and etc.), what does the 645 lack ? Can I download routes to it?

Thanks a lot…. Daniel

PS. I was wondering of updating my prehistoric 225 to VA3 or FR935, now this one looks fine as well.. Which one would you recommend 🙂 ?

I see that you mention “yes” for running dynamics on the 645. I believe you still need the RD Pod/HRM-Tri/HRM-Run for that, right (at least it would be a surprise for me if they found another way, it’s not mentioned in the press release but you happen to know more usually 🙂 )?

I keep my eye on the 935 by the way (not expecting an update there, curious if there will be a Fenix 5M announced in the next days), still think it’s the better choice in this price range.

Any idea on other streaming services like Spotify? I do not have iHeartRadio, but do you have to pay for a premium membership to get content on the 645? Or is there a free version that will play from the watch?

Both can be used without your cellphone, but only if you are a Premium (paid) subscriber to the service that allows you to have the ability to download the music from the service for listening offline. Subscriptions run about $10/month.

Does iheartradio download ahead of time – or do you have to have your phone with you? I guess 12-18 months ago this would have been cool, but I feel like at this point the loss of battery life to gain almost nothing just isn’t that appealing.. Cell functionality would be a totally different thing..

Sorry for the digression, but I haven’t been able to find anything on Garmin’s forums or Amazon… Do the new Quickfit watches offer a significantly longer band than stock? I remember on my Fenix 2, I think, there was a long band for wearing over big jackets during snow sports. I’ve finally moved back to a cold climate, and want to be able to look at my FR935 on the outside of my jacket while snowboarding and xc skiing, but I haven’t found anything. I would prefer having a Quickfit option rather than having to loop some Velcro through there, although I suppose that’s not a terrible option since I won’t have wrist HR anyway.

I’m a Fenix 3 user, and the 645 looks like a perfect fit for my use Snowboard/cycle/hike. I don’t have power meter, VIRB or lights and don’t see that changing. I am curious what “Advanced navigation features” have been removed? I see you can download courses so I am confused. I have no idea how this won’t compete head on with the Fenix 5 other than the X’s mapping capability. Lastly the screen looks different/brighter than the Fenix? Do you have details on the screen? Thanks as always great info Ray!

So, if you look at some of the nav features on the FR935/Fenix that aren’t on the FR645, is stuff like ‘Sight ‘n Go’, Coordinates (routing to), dedicated ‘Navigate’ apps, dedicated ‘Track me’ apps. There’s more nuances deeper in, but those are some quick ones off the top of my head.

I’m mildly astonished by this. Bringing something to market that’s supposed to be a running watch, but throwing loads more smartwatch features in and then pricing it *higher* than the Apple Watch is just madness. Hopefully there will be a 245 as well.

The challenge is that while the Apple Watch is a better all-around day to day watch, I don’t think anyone would reasonably make the case it’s a more advanced running watch that the FR645 (or even FR630). The target market for this specific watch isn’t Apple Watch people, it’s high end running watch people.

I agree, however… Now that Garmin has added nfc, music storage, headphones, etc. a lot of it’s advantages (like battery) are getting minimized and Apple is opening up more of it’s hardware to developers. There is very little (other than time) that would stop a developer from adding the advanced running features to the Apple Watch – no Ant+, but almost everything else is feasible. You could even write code to improve accuracy of things like pace. From a hardware standpoint the Cellular version has 16GB of ram, I imagine, a faster processor, a better screen, microphone, speaker and of course, always on connectivity for the same price.

I use an AW2 as my daily driver, after a long history of Garmin and TomTom watches.

I think in theory, an AW app could to do all of that, save two major holes. 3rd party apps don’t get access to the AW’s physical controls, except for bezel turns. So even simple things like marking laps is hit and miss on the touchscreen. Second, I get the niggling feeling that the GPS and HR data provided to third party apps isn’t the same as what is available to Apple’s baked-in workout app. For instance, Strava’s instant pace is still problematic, even though it’s fine on Apple workouts.

In practice, I find that a lot of the extra functionality gets spread across a variety of apps (Strave, Nike, RunGo, iSmoothRun, etc) so you end up having to pick one and forego the others, since there isn’t one app that does everything.

I still use AW2 because it’s good enough for casual tracking and it supports music and NFC. The 645M may get me back on the Garmin train.

My experience is pretty much the same as yours. But, there is not really anything stopping most of the Garmin goodness to get baked into a single app (even one in a future release by Apple). Apple does, I believe, use exactly the same HR and GPS data that end party apps, however they may then modify that for display purposes. The data itself is written to the heath store, which is where you access it. I believe the new API gives direct access to the real time accelerometer data, however. I think that Garmin has a definite lead in good, usable, actionable data for fitness purposes, but their business model where all the new goodness is only available to their latest or most expensive watches leaves them vulnerable. The original (or more importantly the second GPS variant ) Apple Watch is still being upgraded and Apple could release software for their latest watch that could compete as a high end fitness watch. (Of course, Garmin could add more advanced features to the 645 or VA3 too, they just haven’t been doing that).

I keep hearing people predicting the demise of Garmin because AW can “basically” do all the same stuff. But the “basically” matters a lot in this segment. In this case, an always-on screen and physical buttons are a really big deal for runners. Sure, there are undoubtedly people who decide that an AW serves their needs just fine, but remember that the top sports “watch” in the world is still a cell phone, so Garmin has always been selling to people who think that “basically works” isn’t good enough. And, of course, lots of people just don’t want a smartwatch for 24/7 use.

I’ll admit I’m biased in thinking that the 645 hits a great target market, because it happens to have everything I want and nothing I don’t. I just think a lot of people are displaying the opposite bias: Because this isn’t a watch that suits their needs, they think it’s pointless, doomed to fail, overpriced, a harbinger of doom for Garmin, etc.

I’m curious to learn more about this. I would buy a new watch (Ionic, 645, Apple Watch 3, whatever) tomorrow if it could support audio books borrowed form the library (like on the Overdrive app). I’m so tired of wearing some sort of belt/strap to lug a phone around just for audio books. First world problems indeed!

Agreed. Although in my case I ran out of Overdrive books from my local library and got an Audible account. I wonder if this could be fixed with a Connect IQ app or more likely a data field for audio books while in a run or other activity? If the hardware is there, is it accessable to Connect IQ?

But would love it if Garmin came out with a watch with cellular built in and you could add your own sim. I’ve got a tiny Jelly Pro android phone I use to let me live-track my location. Would be great not to have to carry it.

In your comparison chart, you list the Apple Watch 3 as “NO” for BLUETOOTH SMART FOOTPOD CAPABLE.” This should be changed to “YES – WITH 3RD PARTY APPS,” because you can use the Stryd footpod with the Stryd and iSmoothRun watch apps. It’s worth noting that when you use the Styrd app, it uses the footpod to capture distance and cadence for Apple Watch (not sure if the iSmoothRun app does this as well). In that sense, Apple Watch 3 is compatible with Bluetooth Smart cadence sensors (for running). Kinda getting into the weeds here, but it does seem worth pointing out.

Yeah, it’s always mess on how I handle the apps piece there. I’m somewhat hesitant because it ends up spiraling out of control in terms of A) Long term making sure the data is correct (apps come and go), and B) Understanding what’s actually out there.

Thanks. On the row for “RUNNING DYNAMICS (VERTICAL OSCILLATION, GROUND CONTACT TIME, ETC…)” for the 635 it reads “YES” while on the 935 reads “WITH RD POD, HRM-TRI OR HRM-RUN (NOT VIA OPTICAL HR)” So it was confusing.

Giving it a “Hands on” (or “diagonal”) reading, I think it is a very capable watch, specially comparing it with the Forerunner 630 or the Forerunner 235.

It doesn’t have outdoor swimming or power meter support, but, specially the second one is more higher end than medium end.

The music it is useful. I tend to run or bike with an older phone as “mp3/fm player” (I don’t like the streaming part mainly because it depends on the internet connection, which is sometimes bad, specially out of the city), but is a plus, but a plus that cost money (because of the “FM” part I don’t own Bluetooth headphones so it cost more money).

Definitely an intriguing product. How does it handle music from iTunes? Any idea if it works with Apple AirPods?

As you may have guessed, I’m heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem and my fear is that will lock me out of really using a Garmin watch’s music storage. Right now I’m still using my Fenix 3 HR, which unfortunately works great, no matter how much I want it to break so I can justify a new watch purchase to the wife lol

Garmin Express will use the default music player on your computer to search for music files. If you are on a Mac then Garmin Express will default to the iTunes music library to load on to Forerunner 645.

While Air Pods aren’t on the “approved” list, they should pair and work as expected. The approved list is only headphones that we have tested and validated, but aren’t the only compatible BT headphones.

Hi, Just wondering if you could clarify that comment – are you saying that I’ll be able to download the iTunes music I’ve purchased to the watch and run with the playlist I’ve been using for the past x years? If so, immediate purchase on the cards. (et vice versa) Streaming? Connected? meh! MD (Music dinosaur 🙂 )

Does that help if you bought and downloaded the music many years ago? Like a lot of people, I’ve switched to streaming for all but the most obscure stuff, which means my offline library is mostly about 6-7 years old.

Wonder if it’s Varia Vision compatible. Would be nice if you could actually test it. The Vivoactive 3 was supposed to be compatible, but both units I tried didn’t work. Garmin support couldn’t resolve it.

Posting on your blog certainly has an interesting effect! Not a peep out of Garmin since I initially reported the problem to them. Then today, I get a message from Garmin support saying that it’s NOT compatible. (So they have to update their product webpage which says it’s compatible.) In that case, can you test your 645 Music with Varia Vision?

“We’re seeing companies jump the gun a bit, as well as slightly delay to the week or so after. This is mostly because companies are realizing that announcing at CES itself is a double-edged sword.”

I’m always trying to read the tea leaves (often off base), but I would imagine Garmin could be one of the media savvy companies stretching out announcements so they get more spotlight on places like The Verge/Engadget/CNET. FR645 is definitely more mainstream than, say, a new addition to the Fenix line or even Edge series, and would make sense to actually announce at CES.

This looks very promising. I have been waiting for a true replacement for my old MOTOACTV and have always settled for carrying my phone and having another Garmin. I hate carrying my phone on short runs or race days and I miss the audio feed back(coaching) the MOTOACTV had when you drifted from your planned pace zones during intervals.

I think Garmin will need to clarify the battery life with and without music turned on. If you choose to not use the music side, you’ll no doubt get much more battery life.

I’m surprised that Garmin updated this watch and didn’t just drop it. The 235 is getting more and more features at the low end and at the high end there is the 735 and 935. There is a lot of overlap with these products.

Also the price point of this watch is only a bit higher than the 235. Is Garmin planning to drop that model and make this the new low end running watch?

Personally I don’t need or want a music player on my watch. I just keep my phone in my pocket which is up to date with the podcasts I listen to while running or on my commute.

This. I would rather have seen a comparison to the 235 than the 935, seeing as the 645 and the 935 are not in the same category.

Is this a replacement for the 200-series? Is it the the new top-of-the-range running watch? Does it have more workout-related features than the 235? Or is it just the same feature set with music added?

Hi Ray, I am been waiting for this watch to come out for a long time. now that it is here I am wondering if it has been worth the wait. have been using a FR620. Wanted wrist base heart rate and ability to play music without lugging my Iphone.

Question 1: does it or will it support Pandora, which I already have an account. or do I now have to subscribe to yet another streaming service in IHeart Radio? Already subscribe to Pandora and Apple Music.

Question: 2: the one main reason I was interested in this instead of the Apple watch is that I already have a pretty extensive data base built up on Garmin connect from cycling, and wanted to continue to use that platform. is there anyway to sync Apple running or cycling workouts onto Garmin Connect?

1) Not at this point. Garmin is trying to get other services onboard, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s some sort of Fitbit Pandora exclusive for at least some period of time. Obviously, about negative zero chance of Apple Music.

2) No easy method to get from Apple to GC, though, I think some 3rd parties can ‘kinda’ get you there.

I’m surprised that “always-on” does not feature in these comparisons. During competitive sports, I don’t want to irritate my opponents with a blinking watch. And maybe I’m a traditionalist, but I want my watch to always tell the time, without me having to move it.

I am pretty sure we’ll see a fenix 6 at CES 2018, given the past update cycle that garmin’s been on. Realistically, not that much happens each year in this space that would warrant a 1 year cycle. I think even the fenix 3 to fenix 5 update was mostly incremental.

Nice watch, finally a replacement for my fr620. Will certainly buy the fr 645 this year, but without music. Really don’t understand how someone can run in an urban area with loads of traffic with music on their ears. Same goes for music while cycling

You only seem to look at it from your perspective. Ever tried to look at it from the perspective from other people on the road? Oh no of course not, not your problem if the other person has to react on situations caused by you listening to music while running/cycling

Resolution and memory available to Connect IQ code? CPU speed (well in how it impact Connect IQ) I’m guessing it will be like a cut down 935/f5 as screen shape and buttons are the same. Would be nice if app developers have the same platform to target instead of lots of different variations.

Great job as always. I started reading, and thought I can finally replace my 920. No power meter support and no multisport mode? Garmin is great at giving its customers MOST of what we want. Can you do a post on potential GARMIN killers? Some of us are weary…

this is a runner’s watch and 920 is a triathlete’s watch. 935 was announced less than a year ago, so the new features in 645 plus the ones from 920 you like are probably going to be available in the next 9XX series

Ray, Help me understand hardware limitation versus marketing issues/decisions. It almost seems as though Garmin purposely cripples devices. In particular, the 645 has Strava live segments but no power meter support. That makes no sense whatsoever. In my humble opinion, most anyone who rides enough to embrace live segments is going to want power meter support. It’s certainly a deal breaker for me to replace my 3hr. It also makes this a hard sell against an Apple watch for just a runners watch as the Apple is $120 cheaper, not to mention Tom Tom’s products. Second, the Motorola Motoactv had 8 and 16 gigs of storage respectively back in 2011, it was $250, it had both ant+ and bluetooth sensor support, wifi, and it had power meter support. Why, seven years later Garmin can only put 3.5 gigs into this thing but wants $200 more? Computer memory in every other device has dropped significantly in price since 2011. It just seems that enabling power meter support would costs them nothing and issuing the 645 with 16 gigs of memory would cost them about $3 versis 3.5 gigs. What am I missing on these issues? Thanks for any reply.

Strava live segments is likely focused on runners, not cyclists (in this device). Apple watch comparison is fair.. sort of. But the Apple watch really isn’t that great of a running watch for a serious runner: no dedicated buttons, short battery life, inaccurate, not always-on screen, etc.. TomTom’s products were always interesting but were quirky and never quite worked right (for me). As for the Motoactv… well, the Motoactv doesn’t exist for a reason. It had waterproofing and all sorts of issues.

Lack of PM support is purely a marketing decision, but if they enabled it, it would cut the legs off of the Fenix 5 and FR935. There is literally no financial reason for them to do so.

Perhaps I’m an outlier but I love the Strava Live segments on my Edge 520 and I don’t have a power meter (and not likely to get one anytime soon). I’m not riding to collect any KOM’s but I enjoy trying to collect PR’s and trying to catch some of my friends on Strava.

I run as well (FR235) and my next watch will have Strava live segments too for the same reason. I’m more thinking of the 935 at this point and getting rid of both my current devices to help fund it. Realistically, that won’t happen for a while, perhaps I’ll get the 945 in a year or so.

In my opinion one of the big differences between the Vivoactive 3 and Forerunner 645 is battery life with GPS on: 13h vs 5h(!?) (according to Garmin website). This makes the 645 relatively useless for endurance activities (e.g. cycling). Despite new added features this is a break down for cyclists, … compared to Vivoactive 3. What’s your opinion? Have you been able to verify these values?

The 5h figure is with music on. Since the VA3 does not have music, the valid comparison is 14h 645 GPS-only vs. 13h for VA3. That said, I am really surprised that it’s only 5h with music. In my experience, the Apple Watch (non-LTE) does 3.5-4.0h with music+GPS+OHR and it has an OLED screen. I would have expected the 645 to be substantially better than 5h, given it has a conventional LCD screen.

Thanks as always for the great preview. Where in the world does this leave the Forerunner 2XX series? It would seem extraneous now with the Vivoactive 3 out there. The only difference would be the hardware buttons. Garmin clearly is making a money play here, charging $50 more for music capability in what I would argue is almost certainly identical hardware for the two 645 models. I have to wonder if they plan to keep it a premium feature of the premium 645 and either eliminate it from a 245 or skip releasing the 245 altogether.

I am excited about the addition of music…although I really want it to be added to the next version of the Vivoactive at around a $300 price point hopefully. I have long used Garmin watches but what I find incredibly frustrating about them is they always seem to remove significant functionality as they add new features. Why can’t they simply improve their products? They have such a ridiculous lineup of products now. As a result, every time I am ready to buy a new watch I find myself looking for an alternative to Garmin simply because I can’t stand the constant finagling with their product line up. I never know what feature set I’m going to find in the next version of the model watch I am using. From my point of view it would be much better to have 4 or 5 models tiered at different prices…say $50 apart at each tier, and that increase in money simply adds more features. What we currently have is such a mishmash where some higher end models lack features they previously had the year before. Even more confusing is when some of these features are still present on lower end models, forcing the consumer into a no-win situation at times.

Does the lack of magnetic compass limit this watch’s navigational capabilities? As a keen walker, one of my favourite features of the 935 is the ability to save a current location or known co-ordinates as a waypoint and navigate to it. Does the software on the 645 allow you to do this?

He has left it blank, which I guess means he’s still investigating. Normally it would say N/A (235), GPS(735), or Magnetic (fenix5/935). Note however that my 235 supposedly has no compass, but seems quite capable of giving me a directional heading even with GPS turned off. Not sure how that works!

In any case, the 645 shares seems to share the fenix5/935 hardware platform on other items, so I’m hoping that means a magnetic compass too.

It’s me. I was wondering if after all these years… if Garmin was finally going to add music to a device.

I’m in California dreaming about when I hesitated on purchasing the 935 because it didn’t have music.

I’m not as upset as I thought I would be when the music was finally added. I had the MotoActiv, I had the Adidas SmartRun, I had the music and the promise of using one of the streaming services that never really worked. I hope Garmin can pull it off but currently it looks to be much more of the same thing I’ve already seen.

On an added note. It will be interesting to see if a CIQ app could take over as the music player. Maybe a way for Google Play, Spotify or whoever to put their service on Garmin devices (though I doubt they would bother).

Thanks Ray! When I upgraded from the Vivoactive HR to the vivoactive 3, the significantly weaker vibration strength of alerts and alarms as felt on my wrist made me return it. There are a lot of garmin forum comments on the VA3 about the vibration issue. Are the vibrations stronger in the 645 vs the VA3 at the highest intensity? Also, can heart rate zones be made audible using bluetooth earbuds?

Had the same question so I looked them up on Garin’s website. 645, 935 & fenix 5 screens have same 30.4mm diameter & are fully round with 240×240 resolution. Can’t say if they look identical though. 630, 235 & 735 have very slightly larger 31.1mm screen, but it has flat spots on top and bottom & lower resolution.

I’ve read a few comments about the light on the FR235 on this and other threads. I don’t have any issues with mine. Perhaps it’s because my daily wear is just an automatic watch with lume on the hands.

I also have the 235. It has been great, but I agree that the display is dull. I think Garmin, understandably, goes for battery life over display greatness. In looking at Ray’s picture above, the 645 looks like it has higher contrast and “pop” than the 630, and maybe even the 935. So there’s reason to hope.

How useful is the training load? It seems the reviews on this are mere mentions. I do multiple sports (not tri) and would like a way to compare workout contribution to fitness. Sounds good, but how functional is it for folks?

Also, most my running is trail running, but I don’t see that as an activity. Does this affect any of the functionality of the watch?

We can’t speak to the usefulness of Training Load as this would be different for each customer but we encourage you to read further on how this is calculated and how you can use this to aid your training here: link to garmin.com

You can use the regular Run app to record any runs outdoors or you will be able to create a custom app and title it Trail Running. Either way, you can alter all of the settings specific to that app to fit your needs.

Hi Ray, will the watch cache music from Deezer/iHearRadio automatically (for example, like Apple Watch does – music is synced when watch is charging and connected to a wi-fi network) or do you need to go into the app and specifically tell it to do so?

I have a 235, wear for daily watch too. generally good for me except I question the GPS in mountains. Been wanting watch for 8-12 hr GPS ultra or adventure race events. Now I have choice of 635 or 935. Any clear winner on the GPS and altimeter readings? My running buddies swear by their suunto Ambit3 and ambit2, but they seem to measure longer distance and have different altimeter readings on our runs together. I’m partial to Garmin Connect because it’s what I have used. Don’t know what to believe in terms of accuracy-any final recommendations from you all?

about the drops outs FR645 + Bluetooth Headphones. It really concerns me! I understand you need more battery but when you release this kind of running watch than I’m awaiting that it works as it should. If I understand correctly, Jabra has master side on the right side? that makes them useless for me, as I am old fashioned, wearing my watch on a left side. Where is the list with validated headphones and is one of the points there this “left/right” thing? It will be quite annoying to search for this “left/right side compatibility” and it shouldn’t be the reason while I choose one headphones over the other one. Disappointed.

thank you for your quick answer! but from Garmin site, still, how is it not possible to drive a signal enough strong to don’t loose the connection in 1-2m distance?? also considering the battery restrictions. the headphone have their own battery. It doesn’t make sense 🙁

They’re essentially the same except the data fields are customised to show elevation gain and vertical speed. You can also enable GPS+Glonass which may help with position accuracy if you are running in an area with dense tree cover.

The problem is that warranties are different, and this is often overlooked when this type of comparison is made. For US folks, you get a 1-year warranty. For EU folks, you get a two year warranty.

All of which ignores other elements like import taxes/cost of workforce/etc… Living in Europe, things simply cost more than the US. There’s ways it works out elsewhere, but at the end of the day we’re going to pair more for devices in Europe than in the US.

There are dozens of data fields available for this product, and a full list will be published with the Owner’s Manual. We hope to have this online at garmin.com very soon and apologize for the inconvenience.

What does this watch offer, beside the music part, that the 735 doesn’t already offer? I’ve tried looking at the comparison chart, but I can’t figure it out. And do we know if any other new watches are going to be out in the near future? Hopefully they will announce something at CES. Looking to replace my soon to be 2 years old, 235 watch.

Looks like it’s time to sell my Fenix 5X which I just got, I barely used the Fenix to it’s full capacity and this watch seems perfect. I never run with music but this would be a good option to workout with as far as lifting goes.

Not to you, perhaps, but to lots of people. It’s a huge step up from the 630, which debuted at $450 years ago, and this has the absolutely #1 most requested feature in a Garmin watch. It’s also cheaper than the Fenix 5 and Forerunner 935, which only have a couple of additional features that are mostly irrelevant to runners and runners who only do other sports casually.

Unfortunately no golf mode. Plenty of runners that are also golfers so this limitation seems silly. This would have been the perfect replacement for my wifes VA2 + FR910 combo. 935 is still bigger than she is willing to wear as an every day watch. The cheaper VA3 but with too many other limitations (including battery, screen customization) does have golf.

I have never run with music in my nearly 42 years of road running(over 88,000 miles), but picked up a Fitbit Ionic and Aftershokz Titanium. works great, I can listen to music and have situational awareness. Problem with the Ionic is you can only download 3 stations from Pandora, and it is a true PIA to get the stations on the watch. The Aftershokz are great -2 hour charge time-over 12 hours of music play time. Bone sound works. Being a Garmin guy, I will be “forced” to buy the new music Garmin. Currently running with both the VVA 3 and the Ionic. I have been pleasantly surprised that they both are pretty close on GPS and wrist HR. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the items I mentioned. Hey Ray, keep up the great work. Nick

Personally, neither. Save your watch’s battery life and get an iPod Shuffle – if you can live with a headphone cable. It weighs just 12 grams, costs just £40, and the battery will last 15 hours. It’s shame Apple discontinued it.

I see the table says it does not record HR underwater for swimming. Does this mean that it will not work with the HRM-Swim at all? How will not having the HR data for swim workouts affect the training load calculations?

Very nice preview. The only information we did not get is the size of the watch. The 645 seems even smaller than the 5S.

Furthermore i suppose the watch does not support the power reading in indoor cycling trainers which is a shame. Every mid level smart trainer supports power readings. That is the only thing that holds me back.

I hope so, but in Italy we say: “il buongiorno si vede dal mattino” , I think you could translate with “you see a good day from the morning”. After the small improvement of the Fenix 5 and FR935 over the previous model, I was expecting at least another small improvement, not a step back (see the graph of the run of Ray in the new review of the Scosche Rhythm+ 24h).

Yes the HR graph you mentioned in the Scosche review does look bad, guess will wait to see a full review of the finished product. However as an early buyer of the 620 I know just how bad Garmin products can be in their first 6 months until the bugs get ironed out!

I tested the Vivoactive 3, 5S and 935 for a few weeks. The wrist OHR results were similar among them and unacceptable, and threw off the metrics that relied on heart rate. I realize wrist OHR results vary by individual, so maybe its me. I found particular trouble when descending mountains, when the watch would read 30iish bpm high. I am going to try a Polar product next, but I keep looking back at Garmin because I think they offer the best watch and have some tempting features (except maybe the OHR). I am willing to accept needing to record via chest or arm strap, as they don’t bother me other than I have to plan ahead when I need to wear one, which isn’t a big deal. I am a little leery of products like these overpromising to keep up with or ahead of the competitors, but under delivering in actual functionality. Since results are so personal, its best to go somewhere that has an excellent return policy.

OHR should really only be used for resting HR. It’s just way too unreliable during sport. We need Garmin to put more Effort into a peel and stick chest HRM. It would eliminate the strap while keeping the benefits of battery and accuracy. The medical tape already exists and can last 7-10 days under water. Why doesn’t this already exist at Garmin. It’s been in hospitals for years.

Ray just to confirm – your response above says the 645 DOES support Stryd however the other part of your overview says the 645 does not support power meters.

So in this instance the Stryd pod is not considered a power meter? In the product comparison chart under the BLUETOOTH SMART FOOTPOD CAPABLE section it does indicate YES for the 645 – is this the designation for Stryd? So maybe just distance and not any of the other Stryd running metrics?

Hello, nice review. My first time here but after going through some posts I must say this blog is really awesome. One question – I have never used garmin wearables and now considering to purchase Garmin 645 Music. Is there any way to track roller-skate workout? Now I am tracking it with my Iphone & Endomondo, but not sure if there’s any way to track it with garmin.

I was looking for a device I can record my rowing (both indoor and outdoor) as well as cycles and runs. I thought it was going to be the Vivoactive 3 but this seems to be identical. Does this still cover usual daily tracking and outdoor rows? If so, this may well be a no brainer.

The Forerunner 645/645 M does have a metronome feature, but it functions like other devices. The metronome will not play through paired headphones. The metronome will use a tone/vibration on the wrist.

One thing I would add about the music: I don’t think I would upgrade from a 935 purely for this feature. The iPod Shuffle is perfect for running (provided you don’t get it too wet) and very cheap. Also, if you use the Apple EarPods which come with the iPhone, you have a useful remote control which is really easy to use while running. It’s a shame Apple discontinued the Shuffle – they probably want people to buy the AW3 and AirPods instead.

I purchased the latest Wahoo Kickr, the Apple TV 4k, and have subscribed to Zwift. I have the older Garmin cadence sensor which is ANT only so am using the Wahoo cadence sensor that came with the Kickr. The power/cadence display in the Zwift app is erratic. Power jumping from say 80 watts to 300 watts, and the cadence going to zero back up to actual, and then dropping to about half actual rpm. And I have not yet tried to pair my garmin HR monitor.

Do you have any suggestions on what might be a configuration error to cause this erratic situation?

Any feedback here is appreciated and I realize that Garmin has yet to release all the details of this watch (no manual yet) and there are not the scores of user reviews like the other Garmin watches. What does the Fenix 5s do that the 645 doesn’t? Can I add activities like mountain biking, open water swimming, hiking, etc? I am on the fence – I bought and compared the Fenix 5s and 735x and decided on the Fenix 5s but didn’t pull the trigger as I knew that at CES there might be a new product and now I am back to the drawing board. I had the 630 and am looking for the next watch. Being a female with very small wrists (under 6″) the size and weight are a concern. I love the Fenix 5s as I want white like my 630 but it’s big and heavy. I also want to be excited on a watch where I am spending this kind of money. That it is a nice watch to wear daily and does it’s fitness job (the music thing isn’t a big deal for me). I am a runner, road/mountain cyclist, hiker, some swimming (pool and open water). Any feedback is appreciated. I am on the fence on what to get. I loved my 630 (it was stolen) but don’t see why I’d buy that when there are better options out now. Thanks!

Thanks for the review (uhm… update). I presently run with a TomTom Spark with Music. The only reason I chose this watch was for the on board music capability, but kept wishing it had controls and functions like my Garmin. I’m excited to hear that Garmin is finally coming out with music capability and looking at your specs, it appears that the battery will last running a marathon and playing music. Currently my TomTom makes it to about the 20 mile mark (based on about a 4:30 marathon time) before it runs out of juice with the tracking and music on.

Unfortunately 5 hrs is not enough for me to run a marathon (in the tropics). Hopefully the engineers can do something about this; 5hrs is really cutting it too close. The worst thing is to have the Garmin run out of battery at the last stage of a marathon.

My compliments for your extensive review, highly appreciated. I am a used to my Apple Watch 2 and Runkeeper, but this is not a good combination for a real runner, more for a gadget person. I have lost several runs over time, can’t export all my data, the Apple Watch touch screen is crap as I have to force a screen lock to avoid unwanted touches during the run which stops my recording…which I often find out after the run. So I am looking to a new sport watch. The 935 has a lot of nice features, but I consider the size to big for daily use on my arm. The 645M is a nice alternative, however I have a couple of questions about the Garmin watches in general and this one in particular.

1. If I want to record the indepth running dynamics for which you need the Garmin Pod or HRM belt, is it also possible to use any other HRM belt like one from Wahoo or any other ANT+ belt which does record this, or is this a specific Garmin solution, so watch + belt? 2. As I run long distances in new places I often don’t know the area or route. Can I prerecord the route as gpx in e.g. Strava, Garmin Connect and upload it to the watch. And that during my run the watch gives me just a signal when I need to turn. So no real navigation, but a kind of way point navigation, but all prepared upfront behind my computer? 3. How is the screen brightness alike when using the watch as normal watch, so not during a sport activity?

Is the screen display size the same size as the 945? I currently have the FR945 but is so tempted to get the 645 with Music. The 645 seems to have the same feature set and metrics offered by the 945 and since I mainly run and swim, I don’t need the multisport mode this may be the watch I’m looking for. Only think missing on it would be LTE.

Thanks. I saw that as well but just wanted to confirm since the size of the watch looks so much smaller than the 945. Interesting, I didn’t think the optical HRM on the 945 officially approved to work for swimming. Aren’t they the same HRM.

@DCR: You wrote that Garmin already made all annoucments at the beginning of the CES. What do you think. Is there any chance that Garmin will introduce an updated Fenix 5 (x) during the rest of time in CES18? I would buy a 5x, but if an updated model comes it would be worth to wait.

For virtually every company a CES, all announcements are made at show open (or prior to it). Announcing something later in the show is a failboat, because it means that media/retailers/etc that visited said booth didn’t know about the product, and thus didn’t write/talk/etc about it.

The singular exception to waiting on an announcement at CES till later in the week is for companies doing major CES Keynotes (like, *the* keynote of that day/night for CES). Companies like Intel, Ford, Google, etc… And usually, these are less product announcements than more ‘concept’ announcements.

In the case of Garmin, all CES announcements were made Monday morning at 7AM EST. They were made Monday morning, as to allow for the evening CES PEPCOM event that Garmin was at, which is a media-only event. Since they were showing the units there, it had to be ‘announced’ prior to the official show floor opening on Tuesday morning.

Great review, did you find that the battery life was as per the specs? I have the 235 and love the battery life but would prefer reduced battery (as long as it isn’t significantly reduced!) for the addition of the music.

It’s honestly hard to say at this point for me. Mostly because at this stage I was charging it a lot. Not so much charging it, but dorking with music and such, so it was often plugged in one a day or so for even a short period of time. I’ll definitely do some battery life tests in the coming weeks.

It’s definitely not supported as a service (nor have I heard of even the briefest of whisper on that). However, if you download paid/purchased music from Amazon, then it works fine. In fact, that’s where those Adele tracks came from.

Thanks for a great review with detailed info; Much appreciated! Do you find the 645 to be as comfortable to wear all day as the 935? [To me the 935 feels more comfortable than the Vivoactive 3 even though it’s larger] Are the vibrations on the 645 as strong as on the 935 or closer to the light and gentle vibration of the Vivoactive 3? Thanks!

Just as comfortable, no issues at all there. And no issues on vibrations. I don’t have the watches all side by side to validate exactly which vibrations are slightly stronger or lighter than the other, but never missed one and doesn’t feel too strong either.

The Forerunner 645 offers the ability to set up to 11 custom data pages. This does not include options for the Heart Rate page, 2 Running Dynamic page, Time of Day, Virtual Partner, Map, Compass, Elevation, Music (on 645M).

If all data screens are enabled there is the potential for 20 different pages to be displayed. 11 custom and 9 preloaded pages.

The number of default data pages will also depend on the activity profile selected. Not all default data pages are available for all activities. The information above is based on the Run activity profile.

Two questions: 1) I am mainly interested in what is called “announcements” (heart rate, pace, etc.) via bluetooth headsets. Is it correct conclusion that it is possible only with 645 Music? With other (e.g. 935) it is possible only with phone nearby? 2) How custom announcements can be, what about specific apps. My main sport is sailing (windsurfing). So looking to watch is very limited. Primary goal is to have countdown start via headsets, ideally with real voice counting down. Is it in principle possible? If so – with 645 Music (and 935 + phone)?

Audio Prompts, without being connected to a phone, are only available on the Forerunner 645 Music. If using Forerunner 645 non-music or Forerunner 935 the watch and phone would need to be actively paired.

The Forerunner 645M offers Pace/Speed and/or Heart Rate alerts directly from the watch. These alerts can best set to go off at each lap or you can set the frequency that they go off, starting at 1 minute. There is not an option for a countdown prompt.

However, I am not fully clear about the audio alert functionality. Is the FR645 providing also audio prompts in case a set heart rate target is missed during exercise (e.g. current heat rate is too high)?

Question on the menu, where all the items show up in a circle around the watch face. Is this the first Garmin watch that has that menu view? I don’t remember seeing it in other watches (not that I was looking closely).

The Controls menu was first introduced with the in the fenix 5 series of devices. That type of Controls menu is available on the fenix 5 series, Forerunner 935, vivoactive 3, and now the Forerunner 645/645M

First, some blatant sucking up – your reviews & videos are amazingly detailed. I really appreciate the amount of time you put into each one to help educate us on all of the pros/cons.

And your comparison chart seems to be more detailed & accurate than the one on Garmin’s site. You mention both the HRV option & show some of the “Running features” options in the video that aren’t ticked off on Garmin’s site.

I saw the earlier replies on what’s missing re: “advanced navigation features”. To me, it sounds like things that COULD all be added via apps (which you mentioned you couldn’t test). Has Garmin mentioned if some of this functionality will be added that way (since the hw apparently exists in the device)?

I’m trying to decide between the 935 & the 645 now. Main interests are hiking & running, but also do circuit training. I assume multisport mode is for something like Tri training (transitioning between multiple sports), and that there’s a normal “workout” option that would work well for the circuit training. Sight N Go (which was called out as NOT supported in the 645) doesn’t seem like a “must-have” to me. But I think I’d want the breadcrumbs for hiking (would love the richer map options in the fenix 5, but that’s out of my range). I don’t actively hate touchscreens, but I think I’d probably be much happier with the button options on the 645.

Anyone have any advice? Wondering if the hiking requirement means I’m better off with the 935, or should I look more at one of the fenix options instead?

Forerunner 645 is not compatible with the Garmin QuickFit bands designed for the fenix 5 series. The Forerunner 645 uses an industry standard 20mm quick release style band. It is the same size and style used on the vivoactive 3.

It isn’t an option because there is no way for the QuickFit band pins to attach to the Forerunner 645. The pins for the QuickFit bands use screws, and there is no way for the pins to be inserted into the Forerunner 645.

Hello . I currently own the fenix 5 and Music is really the only Thing I am missing. Is the fenix 5 so much better than the fr645. For me the move more closely together every release. I see it´s only 5 atm waterproof but apart from that? can the fr645 also track hiking. It is not installed by Default according to the Garmin page.

Good review of Garmin 645 and thank you! Question if you had a chance to experience uploading music from a Mac with this unit where most music resides in iTunes ? If is there a section/video where this is outlined/covered?

The 645 seems slightly smaller than the 935, 735XT and the 235. Is the screen space noticeably smaller, and do the font sizes seem smaller? I really liked the Suunto Spartan Trainer but I could not read the font size.

I was looking at this as well. I did a comparison of the sizes on the Garmin site. For physical size, the 935 was 47 x 47 x 13.9 mm, and the 645 42.5 x 42.5 x 13.5 mm. However for the display size, both are 1.2″ (30.4 mm) diameter, and 240 x 240 pixels, so it seems the displays are the same.

Hallo, can someone tell me, if it’s possible to add Climbing or other profiles to this watch? I do indoor climbing 2 too 3 times a week and want to know if i can track this activity in a reasonable way 🙂

Hi, how are you? Do you know if Garmin is planning to update the 735xt to a software equal/similar to 935, 645 and Vivoactive 3? I’m not sure if the hardware would accept the software version. Thank you! Best

Sounds fine to me, but then again, I would have thought the Spark sounded fine too. Though, ‘sounds’ is all relative. If you’re talking about droppage (i.e. cutouts), I cover that a bit above. Whereas if you’re talking straight quality, that’ll depend a fair bit on the specific headphones and such. But I didn’t have any issues with the ones I tried.

Forerunner 645 includes a pre-loaded Walk activity profile. A hiking profile is not a default activity on the device and would need to be added either through creating it from the ‘Other’ profile or adding it from Connect IQ.

I was emailing with the Slovak Garmin site & they told me that the 645 will have a barometric altimeter and an “electronic 3D compass”. Does this mean it is not magnetic ? What is the difference and will I be able to navigate along a route that I download to my phone ? Or to saved coordinates / location ?

Is there a significant difference between the FR 645/Vivoactive 3 and FR 935 in handling smart notifications? On Garmins’ website it seems that on the FR 645/VA 3 you can not only receive these but also reply to them. I can not find this feature on the FR 935. Am I correct or not?

Thank you very much for another review. I read yesterday the review of the Suunto Spartan Trainer and I was a bit positive, not impressed, about its wrist HR data, but now these results were a bit of a disappointment. Is the wrist HR technology still far from delivering reliable data? Would you (DCR) or someone reading this comment opt for a wrist HR watch instead of one with chest strap (assuming that all the other feats are similar/equivalent)?

It’s hardly an option anymore. Almost every watch on the market has OHR, and there will never be a new one that doesn’t have it. But they all allow you to use a strap, so you can use it however you want.

I think a lot of people find the OHR good for tracking resting heart rate and for easy runs. Then you can use a strap for your workouts if you really want good data.

Bought the VA3 and returned it a month later. Buggy software, annoying touchscreen and pretty terrible battery life. Bought a fitbit Ionic to replace the VA3 and am returning it in a few days due to the HR monitor being a mess on my runs. The VA3 was stellar in this regard.

I believe there is a version of the 645 with no music? I don’t listen to music when I run, so how would the 645 without the music compare to the Fenix 5? Would anyone suggest one is better than the other for running? Thanks

Does the FR645 handle smart notifications differently than Fenix 5 or FR935: more smart features, e.g. ability to respond to messages on watch itself (cfr. Garmin website): no issues? Further no issues with bluetooth or wifi on FR645? Thanks for clarifying.

So the FR645 is said to allow for customizes responses when using Android (but not iOS). But it’s unclear to me if that’s in the firmware today, or planned. I haven’t tried pairing it over to an Android device…though, it’s on my to-do list.

In any case, within the US you can’t use the coupon code for Garmin stuff, though, you can still get the 10% back in points, which you can use immediately on something like accessories (such as the RD Pod). Details on that are all here: link to dcrainmaker.com

Why is Garmin so cagey about information around release dates? Every Garmin device fails to get a release dates, their stores don’t know what’s going on. It’s really frustrating.

So, GPS City says they expect them today, but still don’t have them. Garmin’s web site says 3-5 weeks. My local running store says they expected to already have them. Clever Training says “Early February.” Amazon says they have no idea. DCR said he expected it late this month, but that seems to have no happened, unless it comes out really fast.

But this is the second Garmin device I wanted right at launch and it was the same then. There is just no consistent information about when these things are going to come out. Very frustrating.

A) Most stores overpromise. It’s a reality. They want your sale. They’ll promise a date they know they can’t fulfill, to try and get you hooked into the sale.

B) Garmin tends to slow-roll releases, mostly out of caution. This ends up frustrating some, especially when combined with ‘A’ above, whereby stores have promised dates that weren’t realistic to begin with, and then were made worse when Garmin slow-rolled the first few weeks.

As for Garmin’s own website, they have a long-standing policy of fulfilling retailers orders first.

That all makes sense, but regarding A, if Garmin was more up-front, they could protect their customers a bit. But that said, the last time this happened, I did get it from GPS City, and it seemed to have the device (Vivoactive HR) before anyone else. I didn’t think I would miss the more advanced features that I had on my 910xt, but would like the added smart features and price tag. But I was kind of wrong, I really miss the more advanced features. So now it’s time, and I’m anxious to upgrade.

I have some personal reasons for the frustration, too. I just went through a warranty replacement (my second) for my Vivoactive HR, which meant I had a brand new in box watch that would have fetched a decent price on eBay, if I knew this was coming out within the next week, I would have just snapped some shots and listed it, but it might be a month before it’s out. I just don’t know because Garmin won’t tell me.

As an aside, can you provide some more info about display quality? I really dislike the display on my Vivoactive HR, the colors are washed out, the backlight is really dim. How is the display on this guy? I know it’s not going to stand up to a Samsung OLED, but have they been making improvements on this front?

GPS City’s site now says Thursday March 8 for all models. Roadrunner Sports says February 12 for all models. Clever Training’s still says “early February” for the black music model and “early March” for the others. CT also said they get updates from Garmin on Wednesdays, so they expect to send out an email update today. Amazon still has no idea.

I guess the story is that a few select retailers will get them in early February, with the majority not getting them until March, and only the Black Music variants will be available in February. One of my local stores told me their rep expects them to take delivery next week or the week after, and a couple local stores are all supposed to be calling me when they have them. We will see. I am definitely looking forward to not having to run with my phone or my keys starting sometime soon.

Interesting that you got an update from Amazon. I pre-ordered from Amazon as well as CT, and my order status is “We need a little more time to provide you with a good estimate. We’ll notify you via e-mail as soon as we have an estimated delivery date.”

CT’s update yesterday said “early Feb” but no other info.

GPS City told me yesterday: “We are very sorry. Unfortunately Garmin has pushed the date back on us and we will not be seeing these until some time in March.Your patience is greatly appreciated. This is the date that everybody will have them.” (which seems to be untrue if some people are still getting them in early Feb)

And right after I leave that comment: Thank you for your pre-order for the Garmin Forerunner 645 Music GPS Watch in Black. We regret to inform you that this product release was slightly delayed. Based on the most recent information available from the manufacturer, we look forward to receiving units and processing your order the end of February.

it should give you one after about a week’s worth of exercise. I don’t run outside and will rarely run on treadmills. I mostly do strength training and HIIT but my fenix still gives me a VO2 estimate. It just won’t be provided after the exercise but as long as you are working out it will give you one under Training Status widget.

Per an email I received from Clever Training yesterday, “we are still on track to fulfill your order the beginning of February”. Of course the email comes with the disclaimer that availability is out of their control. Last I checked, February starts today so maybe just another week or two for US based orders? Hopefully just in time for my first half marathon in March!

Own Garmin 230 and never could get the unit to work on Bike indoors. I’m sure there must be extra sensors that the average exercise bike doesn’t have that are needed. Same thing for the 645? What do I need and can I bring it with me to clubs to get the indoor bike to be of any value.

“Bike Indoors” is mainly for your own bike, placed in a trainer. The trainer has to be able to broadcast data via ANT+, or via BLE if you’re using the 645. Cadence data would have to come from a cadence sensor that you installed on the crank. Very, very few stationary bikes have these sensors built-in.

Hi Ray, Great reviews, thanks for that! However, sometimes the extended comparison lists don’t make it easier to actually get to the best match. Since it’s also a matter of experiencing what functions do actually deliver that added value for training.

735XT lacks running dynamics I think, but maybe Stryd’s analysis through the heartrate belt covers for that? Or do you think the 935 an 645 feedback on running form is more valuable?

I think I read somewhere the 735XT stays in place on your wrist better, making heartrate measurements more reliable?

As for riding different bikes/disciplines; can all watches have several exercise type profiles to match the discipline? For offroad a wheel sensor adds reliability, yet wheel circumference should match accurately. Can wheel circumference be set per profile? In order to use 1 wheel sensor across different bikes.

Hope my considerations make sense, if anyone has thoughts or experiences, would love hear them! Cheers

Has anyone tried to use the Clever Training discount code above (for the 935)? Is it Europe specific? (I’m in Canada). I gave it a quick try but the site said the code wasn’t applicable to the item.

While we’re on the topic of music (if this is not the place to ask this please feel free to ignore) – I was just wondering if people had found a simple way to transfer iTunes libraries/songs to an Android phone? Thanks!

Hello Ray, I had a question and would like your personal thought on this. As I am a recreative runner and like to run marathons around Europe maybe it’s time to upgrade my device. I’m mainly training on my own and with music in (two separate devices). Currently I’m using the garmin forerunner 230 which I actually like and it’s pretty decent. Now with the newer units coming out I was wondering what you are suggesting between the garmin forerunner 645 with music or the fitbit Ionic. I like the idea of having the music incorporated in the watch and also the ability to use bluetooth headphones. Would greatly appreciate your honest opinion on this one.

I don’t run outside or inside. I mostly do strength training and HIIT but my fenix 5S still gives me a VO2 max estimate. It just won’t be provided after my exercises but as long as I am working out it will give me one under Training Status widget.

I just received an email from Clever Training (USA) that my pre-order for 645M black has slipped to end of February. Hopefully they are ensuring the firmware is stable.

“Dear Clever Training Customer

Thank you for your pre-order for the Garmin Forerunner 645 Music GPS Watch in Black. We regret to inform you that this product release was slightly delayed. Based on the most recent information available from the manufacturer, we look forward to receiving units and processing your order the end of February.”

I know right! This is not the way to stay ahead of Apple. Announcing a produce that is not ready to ship. And then delaying it even longer. I sure hope the wait is worth it and the firmware runs smoothly.

It’s honestly very rare for a company (any of the thousands that show up at CES) to announce at CES and have immediately product availability. And even by CES standards, having availability 4-6 weeks later is pretty rare. Most CES products tend to be late-Feb to April type things.

As for Apple, a couple of examples:

Apple Homepod: Announced June 2017, slated for December 2017, delayed till last week (Feb 2018). Apple iMac Pro: Announced June 2017, delivery December 2017 Apple Watch: Announced September 2014…not released till April 2015.

I could also toss in the iPhone X, announced in September, delivery in November, and so on.

Obviously, it’s not good to delay products (no matter who you are). But invoking Apple isn’t always the right answer either.

I don’t think Garmin has published details, but assuming that the watch uses aptx for compression, then it’s really your headphones that matter. Even if it doesn’t, you’re unlikely to notice the difference while running.

Maybe a crazy question – but why is the scosche heart rate monitor so accurate while the watch based monitors totally fail? What if you were to take a longer strap and run with the watch on your forearm – would that improve the accuracy or is it an internal failure on the part of the monitors?

The upper arm tends to be a bit fattier than the wrist. As such, ones chance of wearing it correctly is dramatically improved. It gives better surface area, and also gets away from some of the wrist-driven muscle movements that can impact accuracy (especially for sports like cycling, rowing, etc… where your wrists are tightened).

Hi, Ray! Could you write 3 critical points why I should prefer 645 vs VA3? Benefits of VA3 for me: price and gunmetal (more durable) version. Functions are the same for me. Touch screen/buttons is a big question for me and here I want your expert opinion. Thanks!!!

I’d second that: seems like Garmin are asking an extra £100 for music a function. And it looks like the music function is not great: tied to using a laptop or to a small number of specific streaming services.

Hi Ray, I am a bit confused about the running dynamics on the FR 645. In your article you said there is ground contact, vertical oscillation and so on. But if I compare the 935 and 645 on the Garmin homepage it shows that these things even lactate threshold are not included. Did they downgrade the final software version? Or is there a mistake?

Seems like only “select” retailers are getting it in late Feb. My local stores are all saying March 4, and that’s only if Garmin’s date doesn’t change again. My Amazon preorder status is delivery between Feb 27 – Mar 23.

The Clever Training US update I got just now says: Thank you for your pre-order for the Garmin Forerunner 645 Music GPS Watch in Black. We regret to inform you that this item has been slightly delayed. Based on the most recent information available from the manufacturer, we look forward to processing your order the beginning of March.

Any speculations around Garmin releasing FR935-like watch with music support? I miss the 24h battery life and multi-sport mode on 645 compared to 935. Personally, I also like the flat design of FR935 more.

I am trying to decide between the FR645 (no-music) and the Fenix 5S. I mainly do HITT and Spin workouts indoors. I will connect Ant+ MyZone HR strap indoors. Interested in the recovery time both watches provide. Any recommendation? Thanks.

From a training recovery metrics standpoint…they’re identical. Same FirstBeat modules in both. That said, the 5S has a bit more flexibility for sports modes than the FR645. Both both have indoor cardio and strength modes, as well as indoor cycling modes (though you won’t get as much cycling-specific detail without a power meter, which only is compatible on the Fenix 5S). But since the vast majority of spin bikes don’t transmit power in a way Garmin can understand, that’s kinda a non-item.

Thank you for the quick response! One more question. Part of my HITT class is boxing in gloves hitting a heavy bag. Does either model (Fenix 5S sapphire or FR645 non-music) look more durable to be worn under boxing gloves? Thanks!

I only wear these thingslink to amazon.com for Body Combat. I push my Fenix up my arm a bit so it’s above the edge of the gloves on my wrist. This helps keep the watch still (and therefore accurate while punching).

I wouldn’t wear it underneath the gloves mainly because I am obsessed with checking it while working out.

I wear my fenix above the band of my gloves so I can keep an eye on the aerobic training effect during the workout. If I see I am not meeting my goal, I work harder. Today I was a bit gimpy, plus yesterday was a very hgard workout, so I was happy with 2.5 or above today. See that 2.7? I keep an eye on that during the workout. Having it under my gloves would be no bueno.

That’s kinda a complicated question. See, the ANT+ spec requires any HR strap that’s compliant with ANT+ to transmits HRV/RR values. Even if those values are complete and total fakery.

So, by that very virtue, it’ll ‘work’ with the Rhythm+. But , we know that the Rhythm+ doesn’t measure HRV (at rest or otherwise), so the values it provides are in a best case scenario meaningless. So yes, it’ll technically work, but it won’t give you useful data. junk in, junk out.

The Rhythm 24 however, does provide HRV/RR data at rest…but that hasn’t started shipping yet.

It’s roughly on a week by week basis right now, as to exactly when it’ll ship. Meaning, it could be tomorrow, or it could slide.

But retailers tend to take a slightly more cautious approach because they know that even if Garmin starts shipping tomorrow, it takes some time for that supply chain to both have volume as well as trickle to retailers.

Does anyone have any long-term durability opinions on watches with built-in HR? They’ve been around for a few years now. I just had the monitor die on my Fitbit, but it’s out of warranty, so only getting a discount and not a replacement. I’m guessing there’s no study done on this kind of thing, but would be interested to know what my options are before spending a few hundred $. Thanks!

I haven’t seen any difference in durability between having sensors and not. It’s funny, with most companies now properly waterproofing their watches, it’s actually becoming more and more rare to kill a watch from a hardware standpoint.

The most common path to death these days is people just move onto other newer products (perhaps because 3rd party apps don’t run on their older units, or because they want new features).

Has anyone heard if the music or non-music will be ready / shipping first or if they are expected around the same time. A pose said their non-music was delayed to the end of March. Is that the case for music, too?

Hi. Thanks a ton for reviewing and providing detailed info. If I’m understanding correctly the Garmin 935 provides compass info and direction even indoors without GPS, while the Garmin Vivoactive 3 is not capable of compass without GPS. Is this correct? If yes, how about the compass in the 645, does it need GPS to operate?

If I purchased music from iTunes directly, am I able to use iTunes music on the watch? Can I create a playlist in iTunes and then transfer that playlist to the watch through connect? Also, same question for if I uploaded music from a CD into iTunes?

I think a lot of people are frustrated. And I know this is probably going to cost them some sales. I would go and get the new Apple Watch, but I really want the additional info and running dynamics that the Garmin provides. If all I cared about was daily activity tracking, pace and heart rate, I would have already moved on because Apple does these things very accurately. And I would save about $100.

As always – fantastic review and like many others I am looking forward to the full review in due course. Garmin (and others) really should send you a few $$ for the work you do as you are a huge influencer.

Further to the general frustration of supply dates for this watch – it would be better for Garmin to specify a release date they can be confident with. I understand that Apple etc will announce a product before it’s available, but they do (normally) say it will be available on xx/xx/xx. Of course I wanted this watch available the day after CES but I realise that’s not practical, but knowing then that the product would be available from a certain date – albeit 2 months or even 3 months hence – at least then I’d know and wouldn’t get disappointed about the date being pushed back. Ray – have a word with them!!

Delivery timelines are always tough. I think Garmin’s official guidance on their press release might have actually been Q1 2018, but the dates I use are usually a blend of what they tell me more directly when pressed, as well as what they’re telling retailers.

As noted somewhere else, even Apple has pushed back and delayed a handful of products in the last 6-8 months actually – a rarity for them.

The good news on the FR645 front is that manufacturing hasn’t stopped during this entire time period, instead, they’ve been building stock up while they finalize the software side. Thus that should alleviate some (but not all due to demand) of the typical Garmin early-release stockage delays. Hopefully I’ll have more to share next week…

They already lost me, I had it pre-ordered and just threw my hands up and quit after a phantom release date and nothing in concrete.

In the meantime I ordered the Huawei Watch 2 and figured what the heck i’ll try it out until the Garmin comes out and return it.

Before anyone else tells you otherwise consider the Huawei Watch 2, it’s android based with the same firstbeat technology Garmin licenses.

I wore my garmin on one wrist and Huawei on the other and then came back and mapped it on the Garmin course mapper online and guess what the Huawei showed the same exact mileage as the mapper while the Garmin was grossly off.

Not only that for music nuts you can push the music from a phone to the watch, it also has iheartradio, google play music, and Spotify.

Garmin lost out and I have no regrets getting more for $199 than $449 from them.

Several US government agencies (FBI, CIA, NSA) just issued a warning against Huawei products due to risk for Chinese government spying. Should these concerns affect a purchasing decision for a GPS watch? Especially considering the recent issues raised with privacy regarding Strava’s heatmaps?

Article here: Six top US intelligence chiefs caution against buying Huawei phones link to cnb.cx

Good Point. I also noted that it looks like Garmin is hiding it’s heat maps. Perhaps for similar reasons. Just heard that the US Navy ios issuing air crews with Fenix 3to help in a ongoing O2 problem in their jets. Read that a F-18 Growler crew used the Fenix to find their way back after an failure. Link to Story:link to thedrive.com.

Thanks for sharing that article… I had not heard of that incident, but found it interesting to read. The USAF also issues some units Fenix 3HRs as well, but not (necessarily) to help with the OBOGS issue you refer to.

I am also waiting for my 645M from REI… I hope you’re right and they ship soon. I have a half marathon on 10 March. 🙂

Hokum if you want to believe that while Apple/Garmin’s are manufactured in China as well.

Cool stick with Garmin they make fine products i’m just plugging a cheaper and better alternative from my experience instead of waiting on a company to drag you through hoops to even release a date on when it is released and has many of the features that people are clamoring for but won’t get on the 645.

Generally speaking, when intel agencies are concerned about various foreign powers, the majority of the concern is on the development side, rather than manufacturing. Certainly one can slip things in on the manufacturing side – but it’s far more difficult logistically to do (hardly impossible as history has shown us, but immensely more complex). That’s because you have to find a reason why something is added in manufacturing that folks in another country will undoubtedly go over with a fine-toothed comb. This is really hard in hardware (if you don’t have control of software), since you have to find a way to make the component/chip powered as well as not seen by any tear-downs. Without getting too far into the weeds, that means you have to also have some control over manufacturing of chipsets (or be able to swap in fakes, which gets even more complex when you talk about validations/etc…). Again, nothing is impossible, but the scale of doing so is exponentially more complex to pull off than when you control the software development side.

In Garmin’s case, all software/hardware development for the Fitness/Outdoor devices is done in Olathe (Kansas), Calgary area (Canada), and maybe a tiny bit still with a couple employees in California for Vector.

Note, this isn’t intended to become a debate on which countries are spying or not spying on other countries. Nor who is right or wrong. After all, the US intel agencies do the exact same things as their foreign counterparts. That’s sorta the game that is espionage.

Also of note since it was asked: Garmin’s heat maps are still there, but as with previous they only show up when creating a route (kinda weird, but it is what it is).

How valuable is heart rate data while swimming? That is the biggest sticking point for me on the 645 vs. 935 debate. I prefer the looks of the 645 and I don’t do any activities that will require the longer battery life. I mostly swim as cardio/recovery after I lift so I don’t feel like I would need the swim heart rate for serious training or competition. I do wonder if the calorie estimation of the swim activity is accurate without heart rate and what the affect of missing heart rate data from approx. 3 swim workouts a week on the training load and recovery advisory would be.

I can understand the frustration of Garmin devotees when there is a new watch coming out, as its availability gets pushed back. I’d certainly like it to be available when announced and reviewed, but CES exposure created a vague production deadline for Garmin.

With that said, I’m happy to see an update for my FR 630 which I’ve been wearing for a couple years. Ideally, I could skip the HR monitor since I always wear a chest strap when working out or running. But spending $400 every couple of years on a day-to-day watch is not unreasonable, in my opinion. I have years’ worth of runs and sessions in the Connect environment. I could just continue with my 630, so I hope this is a worthy upgrade and more stylish. I definitely like the change from the touch screen!

My order has been on Amazon since I read the review, so hopefully it will arrive before Easter.

As of today the Forerunner 645M has begun shipping from Garmin Warehouses to various retailers and distributors. We will continue to fill these orders over the coming weeks and thank you for your interest and patience as we continue to meet the demand for this exciting new product.

A) As Joey noted, Garmin has indeed started shipping FR645 Music units (in black). Other models/variants are still pending. More notably though is that unlike other Garmin product launches, except to see stock at high levels quickly. Garmin has been manufacturing and stocking units in their warehosues for quite a while, waiting for final software to be completed.

B) In line with that, I’ve confirmed with the Clever Training folks that their shipment departed Garmin and they’re expecting in turn to be shipping out all FR645M (Black) pre-orders/backorders by Friday. Meaning, it’ll leave Clever Training no later than Friday, and use whatever shipping method your order specified. Those that have pre-orders in-place will receive an update e-mail from CT sometime tomorrow (Wednesday).

C) Additionally, they expect to have some additional stock of that model, for those that are looking for a quick solution (or, have other models and want more instant gratification). I think CT’s order cut-off time is roughly mid-day for same-day shipping out.

D) I should have CT UK/Europe clarity within 24 hours at the latest. Obviously with me being in Australia, them being in the US, and UK being in the UK, there’s some wonky timezone e-mail coordination that has to go on between all the parties to get me the info.

As for my in-depth review, I’ll likely publish it on Tuesday of next week. I’ve been using the watch since December, and have had the absolute final version of software since last Friday, so now just want to get about a week’s worth of runs and such in.

Hi Ray, is anyone worried about the potential bankruptcy of iHeart radio? if they do shut down, that would leave you with a watch that isn’t able to provide one of its core benefits of music without a phone. Given the architecture of the 645, how hard would it be for Garmin to plug into Pandora or another streaming service?

From a design standpoint, it’s super easy to plug-in new music sources. It’s a large part around how the ‘sources’ concept works on the FR645.

The real issue is more about various Garmin contracts/exclusives/and so on’s. My bet is that Fitbit has some level of exclusivity on Pandora (it may be very specific or time limited or region limited, but not sure).

Correct. In general CT gets shipments in the mornings, and then as long as that happens then things ship-out the same day. Obviously, CT has little control over when FedEx decides to ultimately show up for deliveries that day, but usually that’s the way it works.

Knowing the specific numbers of units back-ordered, they won’t have an issue making the same-day turn back out to folks, short of FedEx showing up at like 4:30PM or something. Of course, as others imply, I wouldn’t really wait to place an order at noon that day either. Typically for these sorts of last second turnaround things they’ll pre-print labels and boxes the night before so they’re ready to go.

Maybe when I’m back in Florida in June I’ll do a behind the scenes on how that works, kinda neat.

I haven’t heard from CT yet today and it’s now 3 pm on the east coast. I almost ordered when Amazon had them in stock because I was jealous of others getting theirs already and panicking a little, but I wanted to give CT my business since they’re a great company. So… I will keep waiting patiently and hopefully get an update with shipping info soon!

Wahoo, I have my 645 music, received from my local running store in the UK. I haven’t had a chance to test it out properly. It looks great and has all the features I am looking for in a smart watch! A little disappointed the Garmin pay or Deezer are not ready off the bat, but I was expecting that. It would be interesting to find out when these will be ready (particularly deezer). A couple of minor concerns so far… the battery seems to discharge fast and GPS takes a long time to lock (in comparison to by 235)

Inside-Out Sports has the Cerise currently in stock on their website and have a few in some stores. Sounded like they got more of those than the Black actually. I just ran over and snagged one this morning 😀 LOVE it so far. Been testing all day and ZERO connectivity issues with external sensors like I had with Vivoactive 3. Super happy so far 😀

I called REI… no joy. Was told cerise 645 Ms are not in stock… possibly getting some toward 2d half of the month. I went back online later and found the cerise version available for preorder. I placed my order again, for the 4th time. I know it’s been a hassle, but… free shipping, no sales tax (Alabama), $45 dividend, and rock-solid satisfaction policy makes it worth the wait, IMHO. 🙂

“Overall, pretty good. I’ve been using it with the various headphones noted above, and things work well. One catch, anytime you talk about headphones and watches (since the beginning of time) is that every headphone out there has one side that’s considered the master/communications side (I.e. left or right). In general, things work better when the watch is on the same side as that. For example, on the Beats I’ve been using, that master side appears to be the left side. For one run I was wearing the watch on my left wrist. When I was running, I had no dropouts at all. But, if I stopped running and walked (so my wrist went down to my waist), and then tilted my head to the right a bit – that tiny bit extra put it out of range and I’d get drops (remember, I’m fairly tall). When I tried the watch on my right wrist instead, I got constant drop-outs.”

After reading this passage a few more times I am becoming concerned. I’m sure over the years most of us have gone through many different bluetooth headsets looking for that unicorn of good sound and good connectivity. Regardless of one’s views about the Apple watch, the Apple Watch Series 3, which contains Apple’s W1 bluetooth chip combined with either Apple’s AirPods or the Beats Powerbeats3 wireless earphones (both of which also contain the W1 bluetooth chip), at least for me does not drop out at all. No dropouts. Zero connectivity loss. I can even do Pete Townshend style windmill arms and I experience no dropouts. Sure the sound is good, not fantastic, however in my opinion I would rather have constant sound than dropouts. Lucky me I guess.

Consequently I could not bear to go backwards to those days of crackling cutouts. Thus my concern about Ray’s comments above. Maybe I will have to wear my Apple watch on my opposite wrist and stream music from it while wearing an Garmin on the other for the running metrics. Looking forward to early adaptors music streaming experiences.

I’m on the west coast and still no update from CT for me. It’s 7:43 pm on the east coast now so I’ve given up on hearing from them today. Pretty disappointed, since I could’ve ordered from Amazon and had the watch on Monday at the latest. Happy/jealous for those of you who have gotten it already, or at least gotten shipping notifications!

I have received my FR645M yesterday from Clever Training UK (thanks Ray for the discount code). My first impression is very good, I haven’t tested it properly yet as I need more time. I have used it yesterday for indoor cycling, but I still need to take it for a long run or cycle outside. The current snowy weather in the UK makes it very difficult to test this watch.

Overall, this watch looks great and comfortable to wear all day in the office or working out and it’s perfect if you are a running and cycling addict.

Question to Ray, can I use the Polar H10 chest strap to run the HRV Stress test or I have to use the HRM Tri. I look forward to see your full review next week and many thanks in advance.

Good question, I’ll try it out in a bit. I’ve got an H7 sitting next to me (just got back from a run with it). Once it’s no longer all gross, I’ll stick it on and give the stress test a whirl with it.

(The key factor would be whether or not Garmin is properly reading the required HRV/RR data over BLE, as it does over ANT+ already. My random swag guess is yes they are, only because Garmin seems to be pretty on-top of the BLE sensor spec in all of the implementations they’ve done thus far, more than I would have expected given their ties to ANT+.)

For optimization, there’s essentially only three things one can do that meaningfully impact battery life:

A) For workouts, you take about a 10-20% hit on battery life with GLONASS GPS enabled (by default it’s not). In some situations GLONASS can help, whereas in some rare situations it can make it worse. In general I run with it on, though I actually haven’t had it enabled for the past month. No meaningful difference in track quality from what I’ve seen.

B) For HR – if you use a HR strap while in a workout, it’ll instantly turn off the optical HR sensor when it connects to the strap (ANT+ or BLE). That saves a boatload of battery. Of course, the tradeoff is dealing with the strap.

C) For 24×7, you can indeed disable that if you want to – and that too will save a bunch of battery, but I haven’t quantified it.

D) For backlight, I’d recommend putting it at the default time-out of 8s or 15s, that way if it gets pressed in the middle of the night somehow you won’t wake-up with a dead watch. Backlight is a huge battery burner. The one exception here though is that I use the ‘During Workout’ backlight setting of ‘stays on’, so that in a night run I just turn on the backlight once and it stays on the entire run for quick glances. There are both during workout and non-workout backlight options.

E) GPS Track Accuracy: Finally, to get the most accurate GPS tracks, ensure you’ve configured it to record every second (Settings > System > Data Recording > Every Second). That will record both track and sensor (like HR) data every second, versus smart recording is every 3-7 seconds or so (or much longer sometimes). That’s huge to avoid cutting off buildings. It has ZERO impact on battery life, as it’s purely impacting storage (which is so trivial upon trivial in terms of size in the realm of this watch).

F) UltraTrac: Finally, I would strongly advice against using UltraTrac to save battery life, unless you’re really going to be pushing the limits of the device on an actual Ultra. In which case, I wouldn’t recommend buying this watch. Else, your tracks will look like crap.

Go to the heart rate widget, hold up button, select heart rate options & then type of broadcast you prefer: in activity only or just on until you turn it off. Tested all day yesterday w/ Trainer Road on laptop w/USB ant+ sticks from both Garmin & Suunto in just Broadcast heart rate mode and had zero drop outs, unlike constant issues I had with both Vivoactive 3 & Fenix 5S. Would guess for your Virb you’d have to add the watch as a hrm sensor on the virb itself once the watch is actually broadcasting also?

Don’t have a virb to confirm, apologies. The broadcast mode is a major use case for me for this watch though and it does work well.

I also don’t see an option for setting up Garmin Payments anywhere on the Android app however. Curious about this & if there are any plans from Garmin to add something like a pre-paid card system, so we can just load a reasonable amount onto the watch and not have to worry about Bank acceptance since that’s a long term battle for them?

That’s a really good point. 20 stays 🙂 Ditching the phone would be nice though, at least for short runs.

Just getting a pre-loaded card from one of the already approved banks also a great idea & likely much more realistic than Garmin setting up their own system, cool as that would be.

Is anyone seeing an option to setup Garmin Pay on the Android app? I’m sure Ray will cover it in his in-depth review & I’m not in a huge rush to get it working, just curious. The Garmin Pay compatibility page still lists the 645M & 645 as (Coming soon) so it might just not be available yet?

Yeah, I too wish Garmin would offer the ability to buy pre-paid cards through a bank and load them up for those of us without approved banks.

My guess is they could, since they (and Fitbit and others) have some small pre-paid cards (like $10 ones) that can be used for demos. But perhaps that doesn’t scale well or something.

My guess also is that if you went through the entire bank listing in the US and then did some digging is that one of them probably offers pre-paid gift cards which might work. But again, I haven’t done that.

I’ll get clarification on when Garmin Pay is supposed to be enabled for all FR645 folks. As someone else said, it’s all the same pipes as the Vivoactive 3 already, so not sure what the specific hold-up is.

Interesting you say the altitude seems accurate as on mine the altitude is hopelessly wrong (its reporting my height as 276m when I’m actually at about 60m). And there doesn’t seem to be a way of calibrating what I understand is a barometric altimeter, although as this is my first Garmin watch I’m still finding my way around and could have missed this. Otherwise very pleased with it so far – especially my 10% discount from CT!

I also think, that missing IQ-Apps for Deezer (or whatever) really are a problem. I like the watch and the first run was promising, but the main argument for buying it, was easy access to a streaming portal and to download music onto the device without a computer or laptop. Now I still have to do this and nobody knows when Garmin will deliver.

the music workflow is just terrible. as it’s mtp it doesn’t show up on Mac as usb mass storage, do can’t just drop off files. with a 3rd party tool i got to see the folders, but couldn’t spot Music. Garmin express only works with iTunes. wtf?

I will not be holding up my in-depth review (slated to publish in the next 12 hours) for any of them. I’ll show you how iHeartRadio works in beta. Garmin Pay is identical to that of the Vivoactive 3, and like that review I’ll circle back a few weeks later to re-confirm things. I’ve not seen Deezer.

the music workflow is just terrible. as it’s mtp it doesn’t show up on Mac as usb mass storage, do can’t just drop off files. with a 3rd party tool i got to see the folders, but couldn’t spot Music. Garmin express only works with iTunes. wtf?

yeah, only options in settings are Garmin or MTP. if you select Garmin, you get a prompt when connect (see below). if you select No there nothing happens. if you select YESm nothing happens.link to photos.app.goo.gl

Garmin Express will default to iTunes on Macs, and Window Media Player on Windows, to search for music, but it provides an option to manually select the folders you want to scan for music. Click the folder icon next to My Music to change where Garmin Express search for music files.

When using a Forerunner® 645 Music device connected to headphones using Bluetooth® technology, the signal is strongest when there is a direct line of sight between the device and the antenna on the headphones.

If the signal passes through your body, you may experience signal loss or your headphones may become disconnected.

It is recommended to wear your headphones with the antenna on the same side of your body as your Forerunner 645 Music device.

well, min 10C diference on a day like today doesn’t really come anywhere near mostly accurate. anyway, not very important in grand scheme of things. but i think we need to let Garmin know that it can’t just throw shit together because they have a monopoly

I guess I don’t really understand. Having the temp on a watch is a feature Garmin has had around for perhaps a decade now. This isn’t new. And other people like Suunto and Polar have it too. And they too have the same thermodynamic limitations of a sensor being next to your body will gather some heat from said body.

However, if super-precise temp is still something you want, you can pair the Tempe sensor to it, to get it further from your body. Fwiw, no other company has that option.

Ultimately, I use it just like Nighthawk – to get a ballpark idea of temp, primarily in the summer on hot runs/rides where I know body temp isn’t really a factor.

Jani Kramer, so have you figured out how to transfer music to the device? How is the handling? Music transfer to Fitbit ionic is a nightmare, terribly slow with numerous wifi disconnects which slow down the process even more, so I’m hoping Garmin might have solved this better.

The post above actually outlines how music is transferred. But the short version is that it’s USB only, unless you’re talking either iHeartRadio or Deezer, in which case those are WiFi only.

For local music I find the USB transfer ‘just works’, because well…it’s USB. I agree that the Fitbit Ionic music transfer can be finicky. On the flip-side, the lack of WiFi for some things on local music transfer is cumbesome, such as podcasts, since you have to plug it in for those (though Garmin says eventually that might change).

Note that you can use either Garmin Express to transfer local music, or just drag/drop as you see fit onto it as a USB device. Also, you can use multiple computers too. For example I have both my Mac and PC setup to manage it via Garmin Express, and both can add just fine.

Received my FR645 Music today – a few days late due to the bad weather in UK and here in Denmark….

Damn I do like the small size and the watch features including music – can´t wait to got for a run/ride or take it to the gym to test this thing out. Love the 5 button layout – I think that touch screens are a nogo on sports watches.

Have you heard anything about Garmin’s plans for music if iHeartRadio ends up dissolving as part of its bankruptcy? I know it’s fairly easy to add/change music sources from a technical standpoint, but (as you pointed out in an earlier comment), it can be a challenge from a contractual perspective. I already wasn’t too excited about iHeartRadio being the music service selected, rather than more established products like Apple Music, Google Play Music, Spotify, etc… If even iHeartMusic goes away as an option I’d really hope Garmin would accelerate the addition of another service.

One of the reasons I opted out of buying the music version of the 645 – Still waiting for it from CleverT- is I have never found a Bluetooth earphone set that was reliable. I’ve gone through 4 in the last couple of months. None have lasted more that two months. I think the big issues have been poor batteries and SWEAT. I do that a lot especially on treadmills and in the summer. Buds turn off and never turn on again. All of them were listed as IPx7 waterproof. I notice Ray doesn’t have a review of Bluetooth buds on this site. I notice the Beat’s in the photo’s but no reviews. Anybody have a suggestion of a long lasting set of BT earbuds that won’t break the bank. Sound quality is a long second after durability. It doesn’t matter how good the sound is I they won’t turn on!

I have had a pair of the Bose SoundSport Wireless since shortly after they came out a couple years ago. I am a heavy sweater and killed multiple pairs of wired and wireless earbuds with sweat intrusion. The Bose wireless have not had any issues whatsoever. They have a very comfortable fit and a good sound profile. They don’t provide as much sound isolation as some headphones which is both good and bad. It is good because you maintain situational awareness while running but it is bad because you don’t get the depth of bass and the soundstage that good isolating earbuds give.