grog wrote:Can you really call building a system over 50 years a 'project'?

Projects usually have one charter and a set of outcomes determined at the start.

I'd say it would be a big stretch to say that the Melbourne system was delivered under one project, but the individual lines probably were. A good comparison is the Pacific Highway upgrade, which is a series of projects delivering on a strategy rather than one project.

Another pre-emptive announcement! The so called Sydney Metro West was one of the options in the Joint Federal/State Western Sydney Rail Needs Scoping Study, so why is the State government announcing a community consultation process before the final recommendations of the study are released? It's obvious that there is a difference of opinion between the Federal and State governments over the direction of the study's outcome, particularly with regard to a future rail link to Badgerys Creek Airport, and the State government is trying to enforce its ideological anathema to any enhancement of the existing Sydney Trains network, no matter how warranted. Staples has got Constance and Berejiklian in his pocket and he will push as hard as he can to destroy Sydney Trains in favour of his metro expansion. Howard Collins might have something to say about that and I'm predicting that in time he will become the new supremo of Sydney's rail network, in whatever form it takes.

I actually support the Sydney Metro West as a stand alone multi-station metro line servicing a new rail corridor through the Inner West, but not beyond Parramatta/Westmead. I don't see it as either enhancing capacity on the existing T1 Western line or providing a fast link to Badgerys Creek Airport. This can only be provided by expansion of the existing Sydney Trains network with a loop from the SWRL through the new airport to the Western Line closer to Blacktown, allowing a direct connection to Parramatta. Ultimately, a tunnel for express services as previously proposed from Granville to the CBD for Western Line and Badgerys Creek Airport services , perhaps to interchange with the metro at Barangaroo, will be required.

In advocating a metro connection to Badgerys Creek Airport at considerably greater expense, Constance is expecting the Feds to foot the bill, while they are being more pragmatic in utilising the existing infrastructure as far as possible, which is fair enough. In any event, the new airport is just too far away from the Sydney CBD to warrant a metro limited seating service.

May 31 2017 Sydney's new metro line to Parramatta kicks off clamour for stations .Transport Minister Andrew Constance has confirmed the government is considering up to 12 stations for a new metro train line from central Sydney to Parramatta, as well as passing loops to ensure express trains are not hindered by all-stops services.Councils such as Burwood are clamouring for stations on the Sydney Metro West line to be built within their boundaries, while large property owners are eagerly awaiting the final route design because of the expected uplift in values it will bring.More videos Do commuters want a new metro line?Out with the old and in with the new? Not for every Strathfield Station commuter. After a report by Fairfax Media this week, Mr Constance said the government was open to considering up to 12 stations and would seek input from the private sector about their design and construction and "how you build in and around stations"."We want to see what we can tease out of industry over the next 18 months or so," he said.Mr Constance said the new metro line would be a "game-changer for everyone" from the Blue Mountains to the inner city because of the boost to rail capacity it would deliver along the western rail corridor.So far, the government has committed to stations at Parramatta, Olympic Park, the Bays Precinct at Rozelle and the central city. However it has yet to reveal the exact route and cost of the rail line, along which driverless, single-deck trains will run.The number of stations will affect the travel times of trains because of the time taken to load and unload passengers at each stop.Mr Constance said the private sector would be asked to look at Hong Kong's design, where passing loops around stations allowed express and airport trains to run faster.Driverless, single-deck trains will run along the new line to Parramatta. Photo: Supplied .Transport insiders estimate the cost of the project to total at least $10 billion, which the government plans to fund partly from the $16 billion sale of electricity operator Ausgrid last year and so-called value capture.The latter typically involves placing levies on new homes and other buildings close to stations.Mr Constance said on Wednesday "we can't kid ourselves" that value capture could be used to fully fund transport infrastructure such as a metro line. "[This] is why it's important for this project that we look very carefully at how we'll build it," he said.Apart from lobbying by councils, Sydney University has been pressing for a station on the new metro line to be built at its Camperdown campus in the inner west.While the government is still some time away from revealing the exact route, much of it will run through tunnels and follow a similar scheme promised by the former Morris Iemma Labor government in 2007 and then abandoned.Under the Berejiklian government's timetable, the new line will be built next decade and be operational in the second half of the 2020s.The new line will link to the $20 billion metro railway under construction, the first stage of which from Sydney's north-west to Chatswood is due for completion in 2019.The second stage of this line will continue on to the central business district, Sydenham and on the existing Bankstown line, and should open in 2023.Meanwhile, Mr Constance took another swipe at the union opposed to his plans to privatise bus services in Sydney's inner west, and warned that the government was open to one day allowing other regions operated by State Transit to be run by private companies.Two weeks ago the government announced plans to put out to private tender bus region six – covering suburbs from Kensington in the city's south-east to Strathfield and Olympic Park in the west – citing poor performance.The decision prompted about 1200 bus drivers – members of the Rail Tram and Bus Union – to strike for a day.Insisting he would not back down, Mr Constance said the five-year contract period for the other regions in Sydney covering the northern and eastern suburbs run by State Transit did not preclude the government from putting them out to private tender earlier."If cabinet resolves to make a decision ... that's what we will do," he said. "I wouldn't rule it out into the future in terms of franchising those other regions."Related ContentUnder Mike Baird's timetable, the Metro West line was to be built next decade, and be "operational in the second half of ... Metro West train line: Up to a dozen stations possible . Sydney University is lobbying for a train station to be built at its Camperdown campus. .Sydney Uni vies for new metro train station at campus .www.theage.com.au/nsw/sydneys-new-metro ... wh3se.html

Depending on the station locations, I think I'd prefer the Rapid option as well. It's also got the highest BCR. It appears that the Local South route passes under Iron Cove, whereas the Rapid route skirts around it. I don't like the loop to connect with WSU and question whether it's really necessary considering that it will be serviced by the light rail link.

Although it's anathema to this government, I'd rather see any future express tunnel, with one intermediate station at Strathfield, as an extension of the existing network to augment the congested Inner Western Line corridor. It could provide additional through express capacity for existing longer distance trains, without the need to interchange to a metro all stations service at Parramatta. It would be just as fast, without the interchange time penalty.

If only they weren't so besotted with the word 'metro'. Real metros have closely-spaced stops, to provide maximum convenience.The new tunnel seems to repeat the surface tracks: that benefit could be obtained with signalling and peppy performance.Local south or local north would provide a real metro: whichever is move useful, and north seems to provide less duplication.An express tunnel would be much better carrying interstate high-speed trains.

Roderick

August 14 2017 Cabinet leak: Sydney to Parramatta in 15 minutes possible, but not preferred .A final decision on the route for the Sydney Metro West rail link is shaping up to be a contest between a line that provides an express 15-minute service from the CBD to Parramatta with only five stations, and a 25-minute route with 12 underground stations known as Metro Local South.Another route known as Metro Rapid promises a 20-minute journey at speeds of up to 130 kilometres per hour along a train line with 10 stations that takes in Five Dock and North Burwood.Sydney Metro West promoSydneyâs next big public transport project will be a new underground metro railway linking the Parramatta and Sydney CBDs, and communities along the way.Trains on the express route would travel at up to 160 km/h and those on the Metro Local South route at up to 100 km/h.The fourth route, and the least likely to eventuate, would be Metro Local North, which would run via Drummoyne and under Sydney Harbour to Ryde in the north before finishing at Parramatta.All four options in the Cabinet paper seen by Fairfax Media and the ABC run from Pitt Street in the CBD and have benefit-cost ratios well in excess of 1, meaning the benefits such as travel time savings for tens of thousands of commuters exceed the costs of constructing and operating the line.The preferred option – Metro Local South – along which driverless, single-deck trains would run takes in the Bays Precinct at Rozelle, Lilyfield, Concord and Silverwater.The 15-minute express option, with only five stations, performs the worst when subjected to benefit-cost analysis. Although the fastest route on offer with impressive time savings, it has only two points of interconnection with heavy rail or light rail networks, limiting its use.Its benefit-cost ratio of around 1.7 is about the same as that presented in the business case for the WestConnex toll road.Most of the proposed metro line is expected to run through tunnels. Photo: Geoff Jones The Metro Rapid option has a much higher benefit-cost ratio of around 2.5, meaning the benefits are more than twice the costs. Metro Local South and Metro Local North have benefit-cost ratios well in excess of 2.Among the benefits identified for the project are public transport time savings, reduced train and station crowding, shorter waiting times, improved rail reliability and private vehicle travel-time savings.Driverless, single-deck trains will run along the new line to Parramatta. Photo: Supplied The analysis raises questions about why the Metro West rail project wasn't considered as an alternative to WestConnex, given that most of its variants have better benefit-cost ratios.Excluding it as an alternative when WestConnex was first considered made the $16.8 billion toll-road project appear to be the best available option.An internal Transport for NSW memo released under the NSW Government Information Public Access Act refers to a Cabinet directive not to consider public transport alternatives to road projects.It suggests Cabinet forbade the consideration of public transport alternatives to toll-road projects including the F6 Extension and the Western Harbour Tunnel and Beaches Link."It would be extraordinarily foolhardy to consider that academic transport economists, transport practitioners and a range of stakeholders will not raise these issues," it said."There is considerable political and reputational risks associated with not considering options."The Metro Local North and Metro Local South routes would each cost up to $15 billion to build (in 2016 dollars) and around $2 billion to run over 30 years.In contrast, the Metro Rapid would cost around $13 billion to build and the Metro Express less than $12 billion.But the Metro Local North and Metro Local South options allow the government to recoup money from developers who buy air rights above 12 new underground stations. It boosts the expected benefit-cost ratios from around 1.8 to around 2.3.The number of stations will also be crucial to determining the final price for constructing the line because a typical underground station can cost between $400 million and $500 million.Transport and Infrastructure Minister Andrew Constance said no decisions had been made on either the funding mechanism or development around Metro West.Well planned cities needed smart investment in both road and rail infrastructure. "Thanks to the strength of the NSW budget, we can invest in both. Our $41.5 billion investment in roads and rail infrastructure is evenly split between roads and public transport," he said.While the Berejiklian government is still some time away from revealing the exact route for the new metro line running mostly through tunnels, it has named Parramatta, Olympic Park, the Bays Precinct and the central city as locations for stations.Under its timetable, the new line will be built next decade and be operational in the second half of the 2020s. It will link to the $20 billion-plus metro railway under construction, the first stage of which from the city's north-west to Chatswood is due for completion in 2019.The second stage will continue on to the central business district, Sydenham and on the existing Bankstown line, and should open in 2023.The new Sydney Metro West will also dovetail with the planned 22-km light rail line to be built in two stages from Westmead and Parramatta to Olympic Park and Strathfield. Construction is due to begin next year at a cost of more than $3.5 billion.Related Articles:Clamour for stations on new metro line .Metro West train line: Up to a dozen stations possible .www.smh.com.au/nsw/cabinet-leak-sydney- ... xv226.html

I guess that M4 tolls impact more on 'Metro West' than on Parramatta 'Light Rail'.

Roderick.

August 15 2017 New M4 toll funnels more motorists onto Sydney's Parramatta Road.Traffic has been significantly heavier on Parramatta Road, one of Sydney's most congested roadways, due to motorists using it to avoid the first day of tolls on a widened stretch of Sydney's M4 motorway between Parramatta and Homebush.After a month-long toll holiday ended on Tuesday, motorists began forking out for the journey as toll gantries on the M4 were activated for the first time since 2010. The distance-based tolls range from $1.77 to $4.56 each way for cars and motorbikes, or $5.30 to $13.67 for trucks and other heavy vehicles.Travel times in both directions along western parts of Parramatta Road blew out by about 20 per cent on Tuesday. Traffic was also queued for up to 4 kilometres along Woodville Road from where it intersects with Church Street at Parramatta.Transport for NSW said it was not unexpected to see motorists avoid the M4, which was "normal for the opening of any new toll road"."While the arterial road network is coping, we would expect motorists to experience more congestion on those routes at this stage, and we are pulling out all the stops to help traffic run smoothly as motorists adjust to the changes," a spokeswoman said."As motorists weigh up the travel benefits offered by the motorway with the cost of the toll, we expect to see traffic flows normalise."While motorists endured slower journeys along Parramatta Road on Tuesday, travel times on the widened M4 were similar to those before the toll was imposed.The 7.5-km section of the M4 between Parramatta and Homebush has been widened at a cost of about $500 million from three to four lanes in each direction as part of the first stage of the $16.8 billion WestConnex motorway project.Tolls on the widened M4 and other parts of WestConnex will rise by as much as 4 per cent a year. Photo: Nick Moir Motorists' response to the tolls over the coming months will be the first test for the 33-kilometre WestConnex, the final stage of which is due to be completed by 2024.The business case for the project forecast higher weekday traffic on sections of Parramatta Road west of Homebush in 2031 with WestConnex than without.However, it predicted a significant decline in traffic on much of Parramatta Road east of Strathfield by 2031 as a result of the first stage of WestConnex.Tolls were removed from the M4 in 2010, and the government has justified their reintroduction by saying they will go towards paying for WestConnex.Labor transport spokeswoman Jodi McKay said motorists were taking Parramatta Road to avoid a toll that should not have been imposed."We will be campaigning right up to the next election on this because this toll should not be on the M4. You can't put a toll on a road that is not new," she said. "Motorists will use Parramatta Road because they don't want to pay a $4.56 toll each way."Ms McKay said Labor wanted to see funding earmarked for the proposed Beaches Link to Sydney's north-east being used to pay for the widened M4, instead of tolls.However, she said it did not oppose tolls on what she termed new parts of WestConnex, such as an extension of the M4 between Homebush and Haberfield.WestConnex Minister Stuart Ayres said drivers were expected to test other roads when the tolls started on the M4, which was what occurred on the M7, the Eastern Distributor and the Lane Cove and Cross City tunnels under Labor."The M4 needs to be widened and extended to link up with City West Link and WestConnex is doing this," he said."Labor has ignored this challenge for 20 years. The government is simply doing what Labor couldn't do."Mr Ayres said Labor did not believe WestConnex could be funded without tolls, which was why the opposition had not committed to removing them.Like the rest of WestConnex, the distance-based tolls will rise each year at the rate of inflation or 4 per cent, whichever is greater.At present, it means that tolls on the widened M4 will be rising at twice the rate of inflation and, in an era of low wage growth, resulting in a greater proportion of motorists' income being funnelled into paying for the right to drive on it.Related Articles:$120 a week and 'just sitting there': Jason's toll road nightmare .$1 billion blowout in Westconnex gateway project .www.smh.com.au/nsw/new-m4-toll-funnels- ... xwaob.html

Roderick Smith wrote:If only they weren't so besotted with the word 'metro'. Real metros have closely-spaced stops, to provide maximum convenience.The new tunnel seems to repeat the surface tracks: that benefit could be obtained with signalling and peppy performance.Local south or local north would provide a real metro: whichever is move useful, and north seems to provide less duplication.An express tunnel would be much better carrying interstate high-speed trains.

The term metro has only general meanings and morphs into other methods and in any case is so widely misused that it's not much point being pedantic about it. Stop spacings certainly don't have any bearing on the definition. The Sydney metro is almost indistinguishable from Perth's suburban system - so many features are almost identical and both contain elements of S bahn and U bahn, but the common characteristic is high-performance and high-capacity. One thing that is reversed in Sydney is that when you look at definitions of suburban rail, this is supposed to offer higher speed, but In Sydney it will be the metro that will do this. Peppy perfromance is something you'll never get with Sydney's trains.

Surely it's time to drop the "Metro" brand so far as the the passengers are concerned. It just ads unneccessary complexity to service information, station identification, platform labelling and wayfinding. Get rid of the silly "M" signs. Ticketing is already integrated, correctly, with all the other transit modes. Every other passenger-related aspect should be too.

By all means keep the "Metro" brand for owner / operator identification in commercial contracts and for rail industry purposes, but dump it for passenger purposes.We in this forum are intimately familiar with the complexity of Sydney's train network, but what about casual train users and visitors? Will they wonder about the connection between "Metro" and "Metrobus"?

How about a social media campaign to fully integrate the new train lines with Sydney's existing train network - "T9" for Rouse Hill to Bankstown and "T10" for Paramatta to the City? A letter to the minister wouldn't hurt either!

I don't have a problem with separate designation of the metro "M". It is after all completely independent of the Sydney Trains network, notwithstanding the fact that it will share some stations.

However, I don't agree with the " T" designation for the suburban train system. I'd rather it be known as "S", which is synonymous with the suburban S-Bahn in Europe. " T" should designate Tramway, which is more recognisable by interstate and overseas' visitors. Unless you're a local, who would have a clue what "L" stands for. I still prefer the previous picturegrams though.

One improvement they can make on the Sydney Trains network is to more clearly differentiate between the branch lines off a main trunk route. I like the line designation of the Paris RER, which designates the core lines alphabetically through central Paris, with branches outside the core identified by number. Branches in one direction on a core line are odd numbers and in the opposite direction, even numbers.

For example, relating that to Sydney's system, the current T1 could become Line A between Central and Strathfield. The North Shore Line from Central to Berowra would become Line A1; the Western Line from Strathfield to Emu Plains becomes Line A2; the Northern Line from Strathfield to Hornsby (after ECRL conversion) becomes Line A4 and the Richmond Line from Blacktown to Richmond becomes Line A6. You could dispense with the separate odds and evens and just number the branches consecutively. The Intercity Lines could also be included as an extension of the core route. It's then much easier for visitors to correctly identify their desired line.

Transtopic wrote:I don't have a problem with separate designation of the metro "M". It is after all completely independent of the Sydney Trains network, notwithstanding the fact that it will share some stations.

However, I don't agree with the " T" designation for the suburban train system. I'd rather it be known as "S", which is synonymous with the suburban S-Bahn in Europe. " T" should designate Tramway, which is more recognisable by interstate and overseas' visitors. Unless you're a local, who would have a clue what "L" stands for. I still prefer the previous picturegrams though.

Boronia (Wednesday, August 16), the confusion will start at Chatswood and Epping in 2019. The way things are going, those stations will be littered with "T"s and "M"s, for no apparent purpose. Some bright young marketing thing will probably even want to re-label Chatswood platforms 2 & 3. The break-up of the Sydney Trains' network into segregated lines has been talked about for years. The operational benefits during hick-ups are obvious, but Constance and Co. will have privatisation on their minds (See Sydney Morning Herald, 17.8.17).Metro is just another train line. Simplifying access to all of Sydney's train services should come first.

Last edited by lunchbox on Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:12 am, edited 4 times in total.

grog wrote:There are certain attributes they are trying to associate with the M branding, like frequent service and no timetable. Rolling it in to the T branding makes it harder to do so.

But much of the T system has similar attributes (agreed much doesn't)And the Metro, at least in its initial iteration from North-West to Chatswood is a Suburban system in terms of distance from CBD and stop spacing.

Don't think sub-line identification is needed.The new timetable which adds directional information to the Line will do much of this.

A STATE-of-the-art underground metro station will be built at Westmead as the state government forges ahead with plans for a 20-minute rail connection between the CBD and the west.

Premier Gladys Bereji*klian will make the announcement this morning, laying down the gauntlet to Labor exactly a year out from the state election.

Ms Berejiklian will also outline her “hopeful, ambitious” vision for the state, drawing a clear distinction between herself and Labor and setting the scene for a year-long fight to the polls.

In some of her most ambitious* comments to date, the Premier will pledge that she intends to “lift the quality of life in every community*” across NSW.

“We won’t measure our success just by the strength of our economy, the jobs we create and the infrastructure pipeline we are delivering but by the positive impact we are having on families and communities — the lifestyles and opportunities that are second to none,” she will declare.

Labor leader Luke Foley will give a competing speech in Parramatta, where he will oppose stadium infrastructure and pledge a commitment to building schools and supporting Western Sydney infrastructure, while sacrificing the northern beaches road tunnel.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal the Berejiklian government* selected Westmead for a major underground metro hub as a nod to its future as a health, education and training hotspot.

An exclusive artist’s impression shows what the station will look like.

Metro West, the 20-minute underground link between the CBD and the west, is part of a planned metro network around the city.

The first Sydney Metro line opens next year comprising 13 metro stations and a train every four minutes in peak hour between Rouse Hill and Chatswood.

Transforming transport infrastructure is just part of the Premier’s vision for NSW to be the best state in the nation.

In a speech at the NSW Business Chamber today, she will draw a strong *distinction between her *government and what life was like under Labor rule.

“NSW was the worst performing* state … the budget deficit was $3.7 billion and the infrastructure backlog was at least $30 billion,” she will say of the pre-2011 Labor government.

Ms Berejiklian says her government turned the state around using “grit” and “determination”. In a pitch to voters, she says “there is so much more to do”.

“The opportunities and challenges ahead for NSW are real, and we cannot afford* to sit still,” she says.