Sexism on the Internet

I read this thread and it had me in frothing soapbox mode that evening. I raged about it to my partner quite a bit. She has been discriminated against somewhat (nothing too serious) but enough for her to know to stay away from certain parts of the Internet.

Topic bump for this commentary on a Suzanne Wenker article... a few days ago Wenker posted essentially a glowing example of straw feminism and claimed that the reason that men don't want to marry women nowadays is because of women's feminist tendencies.

This is well off topic, but there is a kernel of truth in the execrable article attacked in the WaPo piece.

Namely, that it is very difficult to have your cake and eat it too.

As men and women's salaries begin to converge it is going to become mathematically impossible for most heterosexual couples to be made up of a man with a significantly higher salary than his partner. That preference is going to have to be discarded by both men and women, or you are going to have a lot of dissatisfied people.

So inasmuch as a "marriageable man" is a euphemism for a relatively rich man*, Venker has a point.

*If you assume that all dating related descriptors used by women are euphemisms for either height or wealth, and all those used by men are euphemism for weight / looks or sexual promiscuity, you will not be too far off.

That's some crazy stuff, along with the comments to the WaPo piece. I'd say they both have their points and there is no denying that marriage and gender roles or whatever are in a state of flux over the last 30-40 years.

I know I myself never wanted to get married. Mostly cause I just saw it as a failed institution and a trap for men. I am now living long term (16 years now) with a woman and consider and call her my wife but it's strictly a promise we made to each other. So you might say I'm still not married.

I have no problem if she makes more money then me and neither does she. I do have to say I'm thankful that she's still very traditional in her views as a wife and mother thing. She likes cooking and taking care of her family.

The fox news article is pandering to all the old, formerly barefoot and pregnant sandwich-making housewives who played by the rules of their time and desperately want to be told the joke's on those uppity sluts that can't find a husband. I believe in the business these articles are called "life affirming."

I imagine life affirmation is in particularly high demand among the anti-feminist females.

People have been writing versions of that fox news article since the dawn of media. In every movement towards equality, there's always a voice crying out "But our master won't love us anymore!" It was the cry of the royalists when the peasants revolted for democracy. It was the cry of the house slaves when the field slaves wanted freedom. It was cried out loudly and continually against the Suffragettes when they dared to want to vote. Even among livestock, there are the Judas goats.

The fox news article is pandering to all the old, formerly barefoot and pregnant sandwich-making housewives who played by the rules of their time and desperately want to be told the joke's on those uppity sluts that can't find a husband. I believe in the business these articles are called "life affirming."

I imagine life affirmation is in particularly high demand among the anti-feminist females.

People have been writing versions of that fox news article since the dawn of media. In every movement towards equality, there's always a voice crying out "But our master won't love us anymore!" It was the cry of the royalists when the peasants revolted for democracy. It was the cry of the house slaves when the field slaves wanted freedom. It was cried out loudly and continually against the Suffragettes when they dared to want to vote. Even among livestock, there are the Judas goats.

Not at all. It's sexism. It's on the internet. You couldn't be more on topic if you invaded the topic's personal space.

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As men and women's salaries begin to converge it is going to become mathematically impossible for most heterosexual couples to be made up of a man with a significantly higher salary than his partner.

So much the better. Firstly because equality is good, secondly because, if I'm not mistaken, equality is being approached by women's salaries growing, not by men's declining. So there will be more money in total.

Not at all. It's sexism. It's on the internet. You couldn't be more on topic if you invaded the topic's personal space.

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As men and women's salaries begin to converge it is going to become mathematically impossible for most heterosexual couples to be made up of a man with a significantly higher salary than his partner.

So much the better. Firstly because equality is good, secondly because, if I'm not mistaken, equality is being approached by women's salaries growing, not by men's declining. So there will be more money in total.

And a big thumbs up to Bammer's post.

I don't know where you think it's growing, but as the mean salary in the US has declined year over year over the past 12 years or so, I think you're wrong.

Most people's salaries are going down, with respect to inflation. People are paid less compared to the cost of purchasing goods as services for the same amount of work, and they're asked to perform more work on top of it, often.

So while women's average wage might be rising, overall it's falling for everyone, except the people at the top-end who've seen their wage skyrocket.

wow, i just read through a bunch of the #1reasonwhy stuff.. it's an interesting idea. i think all things considered it went well.. there's a predictable amount of backlash but there are some thoughtful responses as well. and the response tags for mentors and inspiration are great. i think it's at least made some people think about what it's *like* to be a woman developer. (or a woman in general, perhaps) it's tough to speak up about this kind of thing. you put it out there but then you have to be prepared for dismissal, insults, more of the same thing you're complaining about and i don't have a clue how to tackle an argument and get through to someone who is starting from "feminists are just whiners", or that sexist jokes are an appropriate response to this conversation.

my clearest objection to all the discussion is that it doesn't have to be "us" v "them", and it helps no one to frame it that way. getting vitriolic and generalizing about either gender isn't going to help someone understand your point of view. i can understand people are frustrated and feeling threatened in various ways, but it only makes it worse to take a "you're either with us or against us" stance.

also, this isn't about the internet but i had a co-worker this week claim that "women aren't equal in leadership positions yet because their grad-year cohort just isn't there yet". which has been proved not true over and over and over.. women graduate in far larger numbers than they end up managing, teaching at universities, holding tenure, leading companies/boards. i was just flabbergasted that he honestly believes *everything is a-ok*. ( he's kind of a twit about most feminist things and seems to go out of his way to be different to and about women because he thinks he *should* be, but it just ends up being mildly insulting. he's equally clueless about many other social graces, though, not just that. ) women have been the majority of university grads since the 80s. that's over *20 years* for us to have caught up in leadership roles if that's all it took. gah.

Most responders male and female were on the topic of people changing their own oil until one woman also included her sense of annoyance at including what appeared to be gratuitous provocative images.

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I'm a woman, and I have done it. If my husband/SO/anybody on earth TOLD me to change the oil so that they could stand around and take pictures and make degrading comments about what women should wear while doing traditionally male domestic chores, I'd have shoved the used oil filter up his ass sideways, then borrowed the camera to capture that moment. I'd also insist that he weed the garden in a speedo.

That was mostly ignored and the discussion remained on topic until

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Oh no, not this again . . . Leave the guy alone. We have no idea what the dynamic is between Sp@nky and Mrs. Sp@nky. From what I've gathered in the VR, they're happy. So, leave the guy alone.

Then it escalated from there despite a lot of men and women trying to get it back on to the topic of changing your own oil. I recommend rereading that thread paying attention to how it escalates. Most people are trying to calm the anger and give their balanced view of the situation while some crusade bringing bigger controversy to the minor disagreement. I am often guilty of trying to bring a different perspective, but actually introducing greater discord. The elevator discussion went from elevator etiquette to personal attacks and the larger and more persistent gender discussions.

There must be some way that people can compromise. There must be a way a woman or man who is sensitive to the more subtle forms of harassment can voice their displeasure at yet another instance of that type of harassment coming up under the guise of humor while others can still enjoy the humor. Quite often the person voicing annoyance is told to grow a thicker skin, but rarely is the person who values humor over most everything else is told to be a little more sensitive.

I really like humor and I've played with some really offensive sexist humor, but I can only enjoy the humor when I am relatively sure everyone participating in the conversation is okay with it. Not just okay, but that they don't secretly believe in the sexism at the root of the joke. I've never understood the insistence that everyone has to be okay with my sense of humor if they want to participate in a discussion that I am a part of. I've overstepped my license to joke, but I've never excoriated someone for not appreciating my humor.

I guess what all this boils down to is that these types of conversations would be so much more productive if people were a little more tolerant toward each other and allowed people room to be "wrong". People don't always think as clearly when they are feel attacked.

While the gaming community itself can be one of the most sexist subcultures that I've experienced, the experience I've had working in the game industry is generally a lot more mature/fair/non-sexist than a lot of general American society. That's not necessarily to say that there's no problems with sexism, but at least in my own (anecdotal) experience, I generally see worse behavior and more sexism outside of the workplace than I do coming from the people I work with.

One of the things that gets brought up whenever sexism in gaming, and especially in game development is discussed, is the appearance of female characters in video games. However, the female characters you see in games are generally designed and created by females, and the attractive/sexy female characters are chosen by a significant majority of both male and female gamers over less-attractive female appearances. Development resources are spent on what customers want, and while a vocal minority scream about sexism and stereotyping, they're there because that's what customers of both sexes want. There's a bit of an argument that could be made that women who don't like the status quo have already been driven away, but it's not like games that feature unattractive female characters gain boosted sales for appealing to that demographic. Generally the resources that could be used making less-attractive females or less-revealing clothing are better invested making content for the majority of the customers rather than the people complaining about how the game is "objectifying women".

I think a lot of the sexism in the gaming subculture is very similar to racism in rural, predominately white areas. It's easy to be bigoted against people who are different and aren't rarely encountered. Just as you're more likely to see outright racist behavior from people in white-dominated communities, you're more likely to see outright sexist behavior from people in male- or even female-dominated communities. Gamers who participate in the "gaming community" are more predominately male, and females often keep a low profile (to avoid harassment), which often leads to sexism against females. And while it's often a minority of people who are blatantly sexist/racist/bigoted, it only takes a few people acting poorly to ruin it for everybody. Unfortunately, history teaches us that it's a difficult fight to fight this sort of bigotry, and it's often painful for the people involved.

Most responders male and female were on the topic of people changing their own oil until one woman also included her sense of annoyance at including what appeared to be gratuitous provocative images.

Quote:

I'm a woman, and I have done it. If my husband/SO/anybody on earth TOLD me to change the oil so that they could stand around and take pictures and make degrading comments about what women should wear while doing traditionally male domestic chores, I'd have shoved the used oil filter up his ass sideways, then borrowed the camera to capture that moment. I'd also insist that he weed the garden in a speedo.

That was mostly ignored and the discussion remained on topic until

Quote:

Oh no, not this again . . . Leave the guy alone. We have no idea what the dynamic is between Sp@nky and Mrs. Sp@nky. From what I've gathered in the VR, they're happy. So, leave the guy alone.

Then it escalated from there despite a lot of men and women trying to get it back on to the topic of changing your own oil. I recommend rereading that thread paying attention to how it escalates. Most people are trying to calm the anger and give their balanced view of the situation while some crusade bringing bigger controversy to the minor disagreement. I am often guilty of trying to bring a different perspective, but actually introducing greater discord. The elevator discussion went from elevator etiquette to personal attacks and the larger and more persistent gender discussions.

There must be some way that people can compromise. There must be a way a woman or man who is sensitive to the more subtle forms of harassment can voice their displeasure at yet another instance of that type of harassment coming up under the guise of humor while others can still enjoy the humor. Quite often the person voicing annoyance is told to grow a thicker skin, but rarely is the person who values humor over most everything else is told to be a little more sensitive.

I really like humor and I've played with some really offensive sexist humor, but I can only enjoy the humor when I am relatively sure everyone participating in the conversation is okay with it. Not just okay, but that they don't secretly believe in the sexism at the root of the joke. I've never understood the insistence that everyone has to be okay with my sense of humor if they want to participate in a discussion that I am a part of. I've overstepped my license to joke, but I've never excoriated someone for not appreciating my humor.

I guess what all this boils down to is that these types of conversations would be so much more productive if people were a little more tolerant toward each other and allowed people room to be "wrong". People don't always think as clearly when they are feel attacked.

Holy crap that thread still comes up in discussions around here on a semi frequent basis! I should read through that sucker again but not tonight, it's quite long LOL.

For the record as I've mentioned in another post. She now knows how to change a tire and brake pads on that sucker, and we still drive it! I'm also wondering if I've ever changed the oil since then! And of course we are still together

More on topic I actually did hear some sexism in an online game recently, Battlefield 3 on xbox live there was a woman playing and some guy joked about whether he wasn't sure if it was a preteen boy or a chick who should go play on facebook or some crap. He went on about it for a while and it was pretty stupid but she played it cool and just didn't respond to him but still kept communicating with the rest of the team. I also left it alone cause I figured that was a good strategy. She was a pretty good player too, I think she ended the round 4th or 5th out of 12 players on our team.

Sexism in gaming is really unfortunate, but I think Anita Sarkeesian reads a depth to the hate directed at her that isn't actually there. Most of the people saying such terrible things to her are probably twelve or suffer from aspergers syndrome and will be saying hateful horrifying things in one breath and squeeing with joy over My Little Pony in the next breath. They would be the special-ed kids who would never be asked and never give their opinions in real life. Or obnoxious fourth graders showing off in front of each other at slumber parties. At "best," you'd get an angry drunken child-abuse victim living in a trailer park, collecting welfare while obliviously posting tirades about welfare recipients ruining America. These are people that would chaff away at a slightly stern gaze in real life, if even that.

Their harassment has a real and profound effect on the gaming community, turning away women and so giving incentive to companies to target men as their demographic. But I think the only solution long term solution is for everyone to just brush them off as the noise they are.

Their harassment has a real and profound effect on the gaming community, turning away women and so giving incentive to companies to target men as their demographic. But I think the only solution long term solution is for everyone to just brush them off as the noise they are.

I'm not sure if that's the best approach. I mean, the strides against racism and sexism in the real world don't seem to happen by "brushing off" the comments and examples when they happen, but actively standing up and saying "you know what, this isn't right."

I'm pretty shocked at the amount of hate for no real reason that was leveled against her. It was pretty stunning and completely insane based on what she was trying to do, not only that but the WAY it was directed at her was really really foul.

Example... the guy who went after The Oatmeal recently got the anger of the "Internet" directed at him for several weeks, and while he was mocked, photoshopped and called tons of names... I actually don't remember a huge campaign of threatening to Rape him or silencing with images of him being raped by The Oatmeal.

It just seems that when the "Internet" gets mad at a woman Rape is the first thing they use to threaten/silence/scream at her.

Their harassment has a real and profound effect on the gaming community, turning away women and so giving incentive to companies to target men as their demographic. But I think the only solution long term solution is for everyone to just brush them off as the noise they are.

I'm not sure if that's the best approach. I mean, the strides against racism and sexism in the real world don't seem to happen by "brushing off" the comments and examples when they happen, but actively standing up and saying "you know what, this isn't right."

I get that but I think it's a mistake to confuse this with racism and sexism in the real world. This isn't a mighty sexist tree we can take an axe to and cut down with enough hard work and sweat. There's nothing substantial to strike against. Nobody contributing to this stands firm enough to be knocked down.

Rather, it's like a huge pool of mud. Whenever I've "taken a stand" against this shit and tried to thwack it, the mud doesn't care. It's just pleased to make me covered in it's filth.

The racists screaming at Elizabeth Eckford weren't "doing it for the lulz." They really believed what they were saying, and so could be directly opposed. The anonymous gamers threatening to rape Sarkeesian comprehend no meaning to their words beyond the word's ability to coax a reaction out of people. Though she is blameless for her actions and the victim, the magnitude of Anita Sarkeesian's reaction was because her concern fed the trolls a feast of epic proportions. Does anyone think a single one of her detractors who watched that video was not giddy over this result and eager to continue?

If they voice their abuse within a good community they should be kicked out of that community. And if they voice their abuse through their own anonymous channels of the internet they should be ignored.

It just seems that when the "Internet" gets mad at a woman Rape is the first thing they use to threaten/silence/scream at her.

In my experience, rape is one of the first things that a lot of the gamers who are a problem threaten to anybody, male or female. I can't recount the number of times I've seen someone talk about bending someone over or "make you my bitch", and stuff like that. It's just that it's more of an empty threat when directed at other male gamers, while rape is a real thing that a lot of women have to worry about in their lives, so the threat is much more real/personal. That added to the fact that at least some number of them are sexist, or want to appear that way to impress their sexist friends, and it becomes really hostile for women.

One thing I didn't really like about Anita's presentation, which I see a lot elsewhere as well, is characterizing things like jokes about "getting me a sammich" and such as sexism. In most every situation I've seen that used, it's not intended to be insulting, and is more of the playful ribbing that a lot of gamer groups do. To most gamers, it's no different from how they treat other male gamers that they associate with, and a lot of the inter-male interactions are significantly more derogatory or hostile than that. By calling out stuff like that which isn't intended to be offensive as sexism, it waters down the real bigotry and issues that are going on.

I do agree with RDeVoe that just ignoring bad behavior is not the best thing to do, though- it's a lot better than reinforcing it, but having other guys turn on them and condemn that sort of behavior is needed to counteract the positive feedback that they get from other misogynists. If they get positive feedback from some peers, and everyone else is silent, it doesn't give them any incentive to stop. On the other hand, a lot of the people who do call out sexist behavior try and "white knight", and behave just as sexist, just in a different way. Standing up against harassment doesn't mean that the person being harassed owes you something, or give you a free pass to pester or harass her either.

The gaming community is really gaming communities. There is terrible, terrible -isms including sexims, but there are also wonderful, inclusive communities which could serve as models for real communities. While I hate the "grow a thicker skin" response to complaints of -isms, having a wider perspective on the issues really does help.

In the movie Patch Adams an eccentric inventory kept asking Patch "how many fingers" and would hold up four fingers.

Spoiler: show

The right answer was 8 fingers. Sometimes if you focus beyond the fingers, beyond the problem, you see the solution or 8 fingers.

All of those annoying language nitpicks that feminist use to do in the 70s were designed to get people to look past gender roles and find solutions. The struggle to make Ms an accepted honorific was more about helping women become independent actors in society not about some minor show of respect.

Sexism is still a problem, but it is becoming more difficult to be an overt sexist, even when it comes to so-called reverse-sexism. For example graduation rates for advanced degrees favor women and people are asking what can be done to increase the rate for men. That conversation is taking place even when women in general are making less than men for the same work.

It just seems that when the "Internet" gets mad at a woman Rape is the first thing they use to threaten/silence/scream at her.

One thing I didn't really like about Anita's presentation, which I see a lot elsewhere as well, is characterizing things like jokes about "getting me a sammich" and such as sexism. In most every situation I've seen that used, it's not intended to be insulting, and is more of the playful ribbing that a lot of gamer groups do. To most gamers, it's no different from how they treat other male gamers that they associate with, and a lot of the inter-male interactions are significantly more derogatory or hostile than that. By calling out stuff like that which isn't intended to be offensive as sexism, it waters down the real bigotry and issues that are going on.

I can't recount the number of times I've seen someone talk about bending someone over or "make you my bitch", and stuff like that.

There is some sort of commentary on the roles of gender and the like when the worst thing you can suggest to do to a man is to make him your *woman*.

Freyas wrote:

...the gaming community itself can be one of the most sexist subcultures that I've experienced...

On the other hand, that's also something I see everywhere- generally most male-directed insults that I see anywhere are either female-oriented, or homosexual-oriented.

Related to this, too, is the stigma put upon men for things like cross-dressing, wearing makeup, or anything else perceived as "female". Women wearing traditional male clothing is perceived as normal, while men wearing traditional female clothing is abnormal. Generally, in most places in the US, men cross-dressing, wearing makeup, or doing other feminine behaviors are ostracized by both men and women. I'm not certain if it's tied to homophobia, sexism, or something else, but it leads to the comparison to women being seen as an insult for men.

There's also an amount of intent that's involved in whether an insult is bigotry or not, which was the point I was trying to make about the "make me a sammich" jokes. They're generally intended as teasing/joking remarks, and aren't intended to be taken seriously. It may often be tasteless, and isn't always harmless, but there is a significant difference between saying something like that intended to be a tease versus the other behavior that Anna talks about in that video.

Humor like that relies on the expectation that the listener understands the speaker well enough to know that the comment is completely uncharacteristic of how they really feel. It says "we are now past that time in history and we can joke about it".

Unfortunately there are others who say it to inflict mental anguish for their amusement and the amusement of people who they feel are their peers. The "enlightened male or female" who is the target of the derision not being in that group. Those people might not feel they are being sexist, but they are using the power of sexism to get people all worked up for their own amusement. So those people could be like Nazis who really believe in the offensive philosophy or they could be the Swiss bankers and American Industrialist who profit from the actions of the true believers at the cost of the targeted subgroup.

And yet, we all know people that would make this comment as a joke, not meaning it at the time, or playing it off as one.. but underneath, they would not mind if those times returned. Behavior is a clue to character that is made more accurate by significant acts, or by the sum of small ones. In isolation, the sammich remark may be harmless.. but, together with other remarks or actions, it can be seen to be actually sexist.

This is similar to an argument that arose in the Boardroom, when a poster complained about a co-worker calling her an Oreo. The discussion, like this one, drifted off to hair-splitting, and a discussion about what words are racist, dwelling on the word uppity, with some, including me, considering it to be inherently racist (or sexist) when directed at a minority (or woman). Some disputed it, and gave examples of non-racist use.. which all curiously did not involve a black person or woman. To me, it showed that they knew it was wrong to say, but their own stubbornness would not allow them to say so.

Not every derogatory remark directed at a woman is sexist.. but, in most cases, the remarks are not alone. There are more of them, and actions as well. A person making sexist seeming remarks at female players will generally not make just one. They out themselves as sexist with a pattern of behavior. A one off remark may be humor, but it's not a good thing either, when done to strangers with whom you have no limits set. That doesn't necessarily make you sexist, but it does indicate you may be an asshole.

Essentially what I'm saying is that I don't think it's possible for someone bought up in a modern context to view a joke like "get me a sammich" (especially with the mis-spelling) as anything but satire.

I don't buy this at all. It's demonstrably not taken as satire. Even if the speaker intends for it to be satire (which I am skeptical of) they really haven't earned that right.

It is harassment. That's why people think it's funny and want to say it.

I'm having a very hard time following you. You can't be saying that, because we have a show dedicating to making fun of politicians (a self selected and privileged group), we should be free to make fun of women (an accident of birth that rendered them less than equal members of society for the overwhelmingly vast majority of human history). But if you're not saying that preposterously idiotic thing, then what are you saying? And what does any of this have to do with gingers, a group we pretend to make fun of because of Eric Cartman from the show South Park?

Bullshit. The majority of the times it's said, it's not a joke to the person it's directed at. But it is plausibly deniable.. so the person who said it was probably too chicken shit to give a more categorical insult. Borderline insults are not humor.. they are the coward's way of being able to back away from being called on it. He gets to yuck it up for the boys, and can use the "it's a joke" excuse.

Ya know I gotta say I've never actually heard the expression used before. And I can see it being used as a tucking it up thing but... That's still amazingly stupid though and may be unintentional satire. iMean how is someone you're playing a computer game online with meant to get you a sandwhich?

And unless you penis is 100+ miles long how are you going to rape anybody you're playing an online computer game against?

Yeah see that sorta comment is def a problem er not yours but th example you're using. And true but the wt me a sammich seems a bit light hearted to be viewed as problematic though it does depend on context.

See I don't see the Sammich thing as any more light hearted than telling a hispanic person "I think I saw an immigration vehicle outside, you better start running." or a black person "Oh you're in luck the buffet today stocked up on extra water melon and fried chicken!" All of the comments are hitting stereo types after the person in question and honestly, they aren't funny.

The Sammich thing is really bad in that people are defending it and it's being used to imply that the most effective thing a woman can do is to make a man food.

Those comments are never alone. They tend to come in a pretty package with a lot of other douchey behavior. It's nice to quibble about individual comments, but racist or sexist assholes rarely stop at one. That's why defending this single one is stupid. Are you going to also defend the same guy when he follows it up with "show us your tits" later?