Looking for Tolkien lore

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CunovendusSporkbender

Join date : 2011-01-11

Subject: Looking for Tolkien lore Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:50 am

Inspired by the Games Workshop strategy game, I have decided to write a new Tolkien based story. The premise I have in mind is this: several months after the War of the Ring, the various human factions have drifted apart. Without a common enemy to unite them, old squabbles have re-surfaced, and various noble houses are looking to make war. Basically, my plan is a Lord of the Rings story with some Game of Thrones elements thrown in - however it is NOT a crossover or an AU. I just wish to re-create the whole War of the Roses style feuding between noble houses. I figure that some of you guys know more about Tolkienesque canon than I do, so what I need to know is this:

The orcs: presumably they haven't disappeared, but are simply roaming across the Morgul lands, killing each other, without a leader. Some of them would naturally band together to improve their chances of survival, forming individual tribes, with a "strongest is leader" mentality. Same with the Uruk Hai. Am I correct?

The Nazghul: Are they definitely gone, dead and finished now? I'd rather not include Sauron, Morgoth, or any of his agents if I don't have to. I just need to be sure that they're not likely to make an appearance. My guess is that they're either completely dead, or won't be seen for the next 2000 years.

The Other Monsters: Am I right in thinking that their existence is nothing to do with Sauron or Mordor? IIRC, even Ungoliant wasn't created by Sauron, but simply made her lair conveniently close by, giving Sauron the opportunity to use her as his pet, but without him, the spiders, trolls etc will still exist, right? I know the demons are a different matter, but I don't intend to use those anyway.

Mordor itself: I think some of the major powers are likely to use this opportunity to increase their holdings by capturing some of the surrounding lands, now that Sauron no longer holds it. However, is Morgul land even worth anything to anyone, since I think I read somewhere that it's generally blighted and not much use for growing anything or raising livestock? Can it be restored to a useable state without the dark powers corrupting it? Even if it can't, are people likely to try, or is it well known that these lands are best not touched?

The elves: have all of them left for Valinor, or do any of them remain in Arda? Specifically, is it written, stipulated or implied anywhere that Elrohir and Elladan have left? My plan is to have them feature quite prominently in the story, but if they've canonically gone then that isn't going to work, so I may have to try a different tack. I want to do as little canon breaking as possible.

The dwarves: Are any of Durin's folk still alive? My guess is that Gimli isn't the only surviving dwarf in Middle Earth, but as the only surviving relative of Balin, that gives him claim to the throne, so he'd likely gather what dwarves remain and launch a campaign to re-take Moria from the goblins - a feat that should be notably easier without the Balrog of Morgoth. Again, is this assumption correct?

The humans: I remember in FotR reading about a "squinty eyed southerner" who, IIRC, was in league with the dark forces (either that or was working for coin and didn't care about the implications of what he was trying to do). Is there any more information on him, and people like him, who are known (or unknown) agents of Mordor? I think the book was very vague on that front, since it told everything from Frodo's PoV, so he can only know what he saw, or what someone else told him.

The Easterners: I'm also guessing that the Harad and Umbar forces who helped Sauron will have gone home, and Harad and Umbar themselves will have little to do with the West, since it's quite far away (and on the other side of Mordor). I'm also guessing that Harad and Umbar themselves aren't evil; only the particularly nasty warlords went to help Sauron, the rest of the people in those countries are no more evil than Gondor or Rohan. Am I correct in this? With that in mind, how likely are Harad and Umbar to attempt to restore diplomatic relations with the Westron countries, since Gondor probably thinks all of Harad as corrupt now? Will they even care what the Westrons think of them?

The wizards: what of them? Does the council (is it called the Grey Council or am I thinking of something totally different?) still exist, or have they disbanded? If they still exist, who leads them now? How are new leaders decided? Did Gandalf actually usurp leadership from Saruman, as the book seems to imply, or is he just calling himself "Gandalf the White" to challenge Saruman? What other members are known, other than Gandalf, Saruman (deceased) and Radagast? How does the whole thing work anyway? Are new wizards chosen from the people? Can they study and learn the trade, or is it more of a "you have it or you don't" thing?

Finally, can anyone direct me to a useful resource of information, particularly regarding the various fiefdoms, independant states (Dol Amroth, Blackroot Vale etc) and noble houses within the major states of Gondor, Rohan, and Arnor? I want to steer away from Gondor's and Rohan's royalty, and focus more on the lesser nobles, who might be vying for power, or even attempting to usurp power from the royal houses. I'm going to try very hard not to involve members of the Fellowship too - they may be referred to in passing, but I won't have them appear in the story themselves unless I absolutely have to. Again, I want to focus elsewhere, and work on the lesser known peoples of Middle Earth, rather than the same old characters who we all know well. So you may expect to see people like Erkenbrand and Beregond, but not Aragorn, Theoden, Legolas etc.

I apologise if any of this is in the books. It's been a few years since I last read them, and I no longer have them.

HowithurtsSporkbender

Join date : 2011-06-20

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:00 pm

The Nazghul would definitely be gone; they needed the ring to hold them together.

Wizards are likely gone as well, since I'm pretty sure they're only purpose was to take our Sauron. (I think)

As for the dwarves, there are plenty of the little buggers left, just not in Moria. As for Dorin's folk, didn't they come from another place or whatever and settle in Moria?

grmblfjxHot and Botherer

Join date : 2009-06-10

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:54 am

Ask I_Lam_Edhellen. She doesn't come around as much anymore, so she might not have seen this, but she knows her shit- teaches Sindarin and all.

At least I think it's Sindarin.

CunovendusSporkbender

Join date : 2011-01-11

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:12 am

Howithurts wrote:

The Nazghul would definitely be gone; they needed the ring to hold them together.

That's what I thought, just needed to be certain. :-)

Quote :

Wizards are likely gone as well, since I'm pretty sure they're only purpose was to take our Sauron. (I think)

Not sure about that. It seems odd that the guild would exist for 2.5 thousand years and do nothing, especially when the Ring was, to all intents and purposes, believed to have gone. But I probably won't use them anyway, actually. You're right in that they only concern themselves with greater powers, so it's unlikely they'll get involved in such feuds anyway.

Quote :

As for the dwarves, there are plenty of the little buggers left, just not in Moria. As for Dorin's folk, didn't they come from another place or whatever and settle in Moria?

You could be right - that gives them a better chance of at least some surviving. Either way, as long as it doesn't explicitly state that that particular clan was entirely exterminated (and if Gimli survived then I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that others have) then Gimli can claim kingship and lead them to retake Moria. That leads to another question though: does it say anywhere who else from Balin's family survived? If someone who has an equally strong (or stronger) claim than Gimli does is still around, that could lead to some dwarven feuding as well...know what? This could work out to be quite interesting! I must look into that.

CunovendusSporkbender

Join date : 2011-01-11

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:52 am

Another question: who rules Rohan now? Theoden died without an heir, I believe, so does rule of Rohan pass to Eomer, as his closest surviving relative? Or are Rohan now without a sovereign ruler, and each noble rules themselves?

I now have a general premise for the story. Now I just need a reason for two rival dwarf clans to go to war, and a reason for Gondor and Rohan to have a vested interest in the conflict.

I_Lam_EdhellenSporkbender

Join date : 2009-06-10Age : 30Location : Orodrim

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:04 pm

Go to the library and get Return of the King. In the appendixes, there is a complete timeline of The War of the Ring and Aragorn's reign as king. It also covers the eventual fate of all the members of the Fellowship.

This may help too. It was put together by a friend of mine, so I put it on my website.

CunovendusSporkbender

Join date : 2011-01-11

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:05 am

That link is very helpful, thanks!

I_Lam_EdhellenSporkbender

Join date : 2009-06-10Age : 30Location : Orodrim

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:33 am

No prob!

sporkSporkbender

Join date : 2012-06-26

Subject: Re: Looking for Tolkien lore Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:50 pm

I hope this post is not too late to be of any help.

Cunovendus wrote:

The orcs: presumably they haven't disappeared, but are simply roaming across the Morgul lands, killing each other, without a leader. Some of them would naturally band together to improve their chances of survival, forming individual tribes, with a "strongest is leader" mentality. Same with the Uruk Hai. Am I correct?

They are not only without a leader, they are also largely destroyed at the end of the final battle. But it's inevitable that at least some of them survive, especially those who stayed behind in the mountains further north and east. Over time, they will probably regain numbers. However, it might take many years.

Cunovendus wrote:

The Nazghul: Are they definitely gone, dead and finished now? I'd rather not include Sauron, Morgoth, or any of his agents if I don't have to.

The Nazghul were dead and gone with the destruction of the ring. Sauron is but a shadow of his former self and unlikely to reappear as anything more than a ghost. Morgoth is imprisoned far beyond Middle Earth.

Cunovendus wrote:

The Other Monsters: Am I right in thinking that their existence is nothing to do with Sauron or Mordor? IIRC, even Ungoliant wasn't created by Sauron, but simply made her lair conveniently close by, giving Sauron the opportunity to use her as his pet, but without him, the spiders, trolls etc will still exist, right?

Ungoliant was a daughter of a horrible spider demon created in the first aera by Morgoth (long dead by now). She wasn't directly related to Sauron.

Cunovendus wrote:

Mordor itself: I think some of the major powers are likely to use this opportunity to increase their holdings by capturing some of the surrounding lands, now that Sauron no longer holds it. However, is Morgul land even worth anything to anyone, since I think I read somewhere that it's generally blighted and not much use for growing anything or raising livestock?

Those lands are inherently cursed, unpleasant and worthless. I think you're right that no one would be interested.

Cunovendus wrote:

The elves: have all of them left for Valinor, or do any of them remain in Arda? Specifically, is it written, stipulated or implied anywhere that Elrohir and Elladan have left? My plan is to have them feature quite prominently in the story, but if they've canonically gone then that isn't going to work, so I may have to try a different tack. I want to do as little canon breaking as possible.

The majority of the most noble elves leaves over time. Some elves do stay behind, especially the "lower" elves (such as the ones that live in Mirkwood).

Cunovendus wrote:

The dwarves: Are any of Durin's folk still alive? My guess is that Gimli isn't the only surviving dwarf in Middle Earth, but as the only surviving relative of Balin, that gives him claim to the throne, so he'd likely gather what dwarves remain and launch a campaign to re-take Moria from the goblins - a feat that should be notably easier without the Balrog of Morgoth. Again, is this assumption correct?

Not sure about Durin's relatives.The defeat of the Balrog (and most of the orcs) might make it possible to reclaim Moria but I think it would still be extremely dangerous and require a very solid army. I'm quite sure the balrog wasn't the only thing that the dwarves woke up by digging too deep.

Cunovendus wrote:

The humans: I remember in FotR reading about a "squinty eyed southerner" who, IIRC, was in league with the dark forces (either that or was working for coin and didn't care about the implications of what he was trying to do).

I think he was just some Harad (spy?).

Cunovendus wrote:

The Easterners: I'm also guessing that the Harad and Umbar forces who helped Sauron will have gone home, and Harad and Umbar themselves will have little to do with the West, since it's quite far away (and on the other side of Mordor). I'm also guessing that Harad and Umbar themselves aren't evil; only the particularly nasty warlords went to help Sauron, the rest of the people in those countries are no more evil than Gondor or Rohan.

I mostly agree, but Gondor and Rohan were positively noble people. Susceptible to corruption maybe, but overall they're supposed to be real "good guys" with a strong code of chivalry. The Harad not so much, they're not really evil but they didn't mind acting as mercenaries for Sauron. The umbar were pirates and pretty shady characters.

Cunovendus wrote:

The wizards: what of them? Does the council (is it called the Grey Council or am I thinking of something totally different?) still exist, or have they disbanded? If they still exist, who leads them now? How are new leaders decided? Did Gandalf actually usurp leadership from Saruman, as the book seems to imply, or is he just calling himself "Gandalf the White" to challenge Saruman? What other members are known, other than Gandalf, Saruman (deceased) and Radagast? How does the whole thing work anyway? Are new wizards chosen from the people? Can they study and learn the trade, or is it more of a "you have it or you don't" thing?

Gandalf became the new leader in the scene where he confronted Saruman, after the battle of Orthanc. Wizards (including Sauron) are no mortals but Maiar, lesser cousins of the Valar. So you have it or you don't. Besides Radagast and Gandalf there are two "blue wizards" with the names of Alatar and Pallando but very little is told about them.