If we win these 2 winnable games ( a 4 win streak going into the offseaseon... no wai!!) , we wont even have to trade back. Look at the logjam of 5-9 teams, and we have a tougher sched than most. We will end up at 10-14 in that situation, which opens us to BPA who falls outta top10, whether it be prince, or even someone like Gabe Carimi to solidify the line.

As long as they dont reach and take a quality CB/LB/OL/DE I will be happy. NoOskill position or DT Basically, and I think you go into next season with Delmas & Spievey at safetry, but bring in a better vet safety then CC to compete with Spievey /back those too often injured guys.

December 25th, 2010, 3:33 pm

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3527Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

DJ-B wrote:

If we win these 2 winnable games ( a 4 win streak going into the offseaseon... no wai!!) , we wont even have to trade back. Look at the logjam of 5-9 teams, and we have a tougher sched than most. We will end up at 10-14 in that situation, which opens us to BPA who falls outta top10, whether it be prince, or even someone like Gabe Carimi to solidify the line.

As long as they dont reach and take a quality CB/LB/OL/DE I will be happy. NoOskill position or DT Basically, and I think you go into next season with Delmas & Spievey at safetry, but bring in a better vet safety then CC to compete with Spievey /back those too often injured guys.

Though I think almost no matter what we have to draft defense in the first round (and second), I too am pretty high on Gabe Carimi. I think he could start day 1 on our O-line.

December 25th, 2010, 4:00 pm

liontrax

NFL Team Captain

Joined: March 21st, 2005, 2:11 pmPosts: 1597Location: Wolverine, Mi.

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

kdsberman wrote:

DJ-B wrote:

If we win these 2 winnable games ( a 4 win streak going into the offseaseon... no wai!!) , we wont even have to trade back. Look at the logjam of 5-9 teams, and we have a tougher sched than most. We will end up at 10-14 in that situation, which opens us to BPA who falls outta top10, whether it be prince, or even someone like Gabe Carimi to solidify the line.

As long as they dont reach and take a quality CB/LB/OL/DE I will be happy. NoOskill position or DT Basically, and I think you go into next season with Delmas & Spievey at safetry, but bring in a better vet safety then CC to compete with Spievey /back those too often injured guys.

Though I think almost no matter what we have to draft defense in the first round (and second), I too am pretty high on Gabe Carimi. I think he could start day 1 on our O-line.

I am high on Carimi as well, but there are several solid candidates at that position in the coming draft. The thing is, I don't think the Lions are all that disappointed in the play of there Tackles this season. As much as it bothers me to say it, Backus has had a solid year and I felt Gosder was improved this season. However, I do hope they address the RG position and possibly C. In regards to Spievay, I hope he gets moved back to corner and they work to develop him at the position he was drafted to play. Then, draft a safety in the 3rd to 5th rounds. I feel the safety spot would be better served with a kid that's been playing it for the last 4 years in college and already has an idea of how to play it. I have said previously that I'm greatly disappointed with Lions 3rd round choices the last two drafts. These are very important selections in the rebuilding of this team, and I implore Mayhew and his scouts to do a better job in scrutinizing the talent still on the board.

December 26th, 2010, 10:43 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

liontrax wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

DJ-B wrote:

If we win these 2 winnable games ( a 4 win streak going into the offseaseon... no wai!!) , we wont even have to trade back. Look at the logjam of 5-9 teams, and we have a tougher sched than most. We will end up at 10-14 in that situation, which opens us to BPA who falls outta top10, whether it be prince, or even someone like Gabe Carimi to solidify the line.

As long as they dont reach and take a quality CB/LB/OL/DE I will be happy. NoOskill position or DT Basically, and I think you go into next season with Delmas & Spievey at safetry, but bring in a better vet safety then CC to compete with Spievey /back those too often injured guys.

Though I think almost no matter what we have to draft defense in the first round (and second), I too am pretty high on Gabe Carimi. I think he could start day 1 on our O-line.

I am high on Carimi as well, but there are several solid candidates at that position in the coming draft. The thing is, I don't think the Lions are all that disappointed in the play of there Tackles this season. As much as it bothers me to say it, Backus has had a solid year and I felt Gosder was improved this season. However, I do hope they address the RG position and possibly C. In regards to Spievay, I hope he gets moved back to corner and they work to develop him at the position he was drafted to play. Then, draft a safety in the 3rd to 5th rounds. I feel the safety spot would be better served with a kid that's been playing it for the last 4 years in college and already has an idea of how to play it. I have said previously that I'm greatly disappointed with Lions 3rd round choices the last two drafts. These are very important selections in the rebuilding of this team, and I implore Mayhew and his scouts to do a better job in scrutinizing the talent still on the board.

Speivey wasn't moved to safety because of a lack of personnel at that position, he was moved to safety because he doesn't have the skillset to be an NFL corner. He is physical, and the Lions liked that in him. But he doesn't cover well in man to man protection, and doesn't turn as fluidly as what is needed.

It would have been nice for the Lions to finally hit on a corner in the draft. But Speivey has spent the entire season working/playing at safety, so I'd keep him there and hope he begins to understand the position better in the off-season. Cornerback is a spot that requires more natural athletic talent and specific skills to make it in the NFL. There are plenty of guys who were quite good as corners in the college ranks, but couldn't cover a floor if they were a bearskin rug in the NFL.

Personally I don't think any of the offensive tackles coming out are worth top ten picks, and are borderline picks in the 11-15 range. I'd prefer the Lions to go BPA at a position of some need, like CB, LB, DE, or even WR if all the best defensive players that fit the system are gone.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

December 26th, 2010, 10:50 am

liontrax

NFL Team Captain

Joined: March 21st, 2005, 2:11 pmPosts: 1597Location: Wolverine, Mi.

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

I realize they moved him because of his lack of coverage ability. It just grinds at me that we spent a 3rd on him, when if we were drafting for a safety, maybe they could of got one that already had an idea of how to play it. Feel they dropped the ball on this one.

I agree with you about the OT's. Don't think the Lions will take one, unless they have traded to the back of the 1st and have no better option.

December 26th, 2010, 11:15 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

liontrax wrote:

I realize they moved him because of his lack of coverage ability. It just grinds at me that we spent a 3rd on him, when if we were drafting for a safety, maybe they could of got one that already had an idea of how to play it. Feel they dropped the ball on this one.

I agree with you about the OT's. Don't think the Lions will take one, unless they have traded to the back of the 1st and have no better option.

OK, now I understand. I agree it would have been nice to get a safety who knows how to play it already. However, there are advantages to converting a corner to safety. The Lions really do need a ballhawker safety back there, and Spievey could become that guy. Delmas plays well, but isn't as strong in coverage as I'd like to see. The Lions really only have one coverage safety, and that's Amari. I'd like to see them pick up another one. However, if they can get a quality corner to pair with Houston, and we keep Alfonso, Vasher and Aaron Berry as depth, I think we'll be OK and not desperately need a coverage safety as backup.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

December 26th, 2010, 5:27 pm

columbuscrowd

Junior Varsity

Joined: July 7th, 2007, 11:56 amPosts: 194

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

DJ-B said:

Quote:

It was based around us picking at #1/2 which is where we looked when the discussion came up midseason. Now that we are at 5+ I agree that even the hypothetical is out. Now we see that Stantona nd Hill can win with this team, we go into next season with Stafford - Stanton/Hill - Or possibly even dropping 1 of them and keep ZRob/Young Guy w Potential.

But that was the whole point of this thread you started. You made it sound philosphical, but in the end, it seems you were looking for edification. I think it is more important what the Lions feel about Stafford then you.

This team was 0-16 two seasons ago which has NEVER happened in the NFL. A lot of guys like to think if some players just tried harder that team could have gone to the play-offs. Those same same people were the ones during the half way point of the this season screaming for Schwartz's head. My opinion, which could be wrong, is that there is a process to success and that takes time, whether as an individual or as a team. In 2009, year 1, acquire as much talent as possible to simulate an NFL franchise and establish a base of how things are going to be executed, by both players and coaches. In 2010, year 2, keep acquiring talent, assembling a core of leaders to assist in future assimilation of talent and practice repeatedly on execution of expectations to cement foundation. Years 3 & 4 should be about expanding outward the talent base and developing depth while team now understands expectations and experiencing more positive feedback then negative. (The trend is for improvement, but you have to allow for learning mistakes by the player, the team is not going to have 100% record for every decision it makes, etc.) Year 5 going forward should be play-off contention. After year 7, if team has not made Super Bowl, re-evaluate and make major changes to achieve goal.

Somewhere in there, you need your franchise Qb. The Lions felt they got theirs at the very beginning with new regimes first pick in Stafford. Now if you recall, there was a major debate at the time whether Stafford should sit or he should play right away. What if we kept Kitna, and Stafford has been on the bench learning these past two years. Would you have still been in favor of drafting Luck (who may or may not be the number 1 pick by the time April rolls around)? Stafford would be an unknown in this scenario.

I know it is not a fair question because we did not keep Kitna and sit Stafford. Schwartz stated from beginning the best players would have earned the right to start and Stafford on last pre-season game earned the right. I would like to point out that players are not static. Even though Stafford played, he did trend better as the season got along. Not by a lot, but most fans felt better about him at the end of 2009 then at the beginning of the season. A lot of people compared him to a young Brett Favre because he finished 2nd in NFL for most interceptions while also showing emotional leadership skills during the big win over Cleveland. He finished his rookie year completing 53% of his passes for a 61.0 qb rating on a 2-14 team with leagues bottom 10 rushing attack to support him.

In 2010, pre-season he looked fantastic. He was confident, he knew where he wanted to go with the ball. He still would offer up the occasional play that would remind you he was just his second year in the league, but most observers noticed a vast upgrade over last season and he was being discussed by the John Claytons of the world which was new for any Lion, let alone a Lion QB. Yes, he only played 3 games this year, making a quarter of the pass attempts he made his first year. But his completion percentage jumped to 59.4%, he threw 6 TD's to 1 INT in 96 passes and had a QB rating of 91.3 on the year with that same bottom 10 rushing attack. I am not sure who I would compare him to at this point.

I don't know if he is an accident waiting to happen. I agree, staying healthy is a skill. I have advocated a few times for the Lions to re-examine the training staff due to their history of injuries. Green Bay is going to do that this offseason due to their rash of injuries. Break down their off season programs, in season maintenance programs, and rehab procedures. Our players need to be the best they can be when they compete. With University of Michigan (along with other Big Ten Schools) near by as well as a host of nation wide top ten hospitals in the Mid-West, there is no reason for the Lions to NOT have one of the best training staffs in the NFL. But I digress. Stafford has proven he is OUR franchise QB. My point is over the past two seasons he has shown fantastic development that we all have gotten to see. He IS our developmental QB. Unfortunately, he is also our best QB and has only played 13 of 32 games the past two seasons.

To the Schwartz's regime credit, they have not let his absences affect the protocols they are instilling for the whole team. That is why they signed Shaun Hill. A caretaker QB, who, if necessary, can win short term, while the #1 Qb is out. And the NFL is a TEAM game. Bad teams rely on one or two guys, good teams have several options. This team has progressed to the point that without their #1 QB, they could stay close with every team they played and win one or two to being a team with their 3rd string QB they could stay close with play-off contending teams and win.

So instead of getting another #1 QB, the Lions would be better served to continue to expand their talent base. Baltimore won Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer. Tampa Bay won with Brad Johnson. Chicago Bears made to Super Bowl with Rex Grossman. Tennessee with McNair, NY Giants with Kerry Collins, Carolina Panthers with Jake Delhome, Seattle with Matt Hasselback. Only Johnson and Hasselback went to Pro Bowls the years the teams made the big game.

December 29th, 2010, 6:09 am

DJ-B

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: April 5th, 2007, 5:51 pmPosts: 2578

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

Not looking for edification, I stand by my opinion. And If we were drafting at #1 (or #2 if Luck somehow slipped) I would still draft him.

Personally I think Luck will be a better QB in a few years then Stafford even if Stafford remains healthy.

The Hypotehtical was that it was unlikely we would be picking at #1 and have a shot. It was not philosophical in nature. And yes a few teams have won with medeiocre Qbs, but as evidences by my research in post 1 of this thread, they are few and far between. As a famous man once said "You can do it the easy way... or the hard way".

December 29th, 2010, 7:02 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 10024Location: Dallas

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

This is a very interesting year as far as the 4 teams left are concerned, they each seem to have both. Notice all 4 starting QBs are 1st round draft picks but all 4 teams have top defenses as well Steelers (1), Packers (3), Bears (4), Jets (7).

I was thinking the same thing earlier. Maybe despite the prolific offenses of the past decade.. we are slowly moving back to where D wins more often than O in the playoffs?

Either way, The fact that all 4 have top selected QBs, but also top 10 Ds is i guyess not suprising that they are the last 4 teams.

For something else to ponder, I had not realized it till i read Gregg Easterbrooks TMQ for this week, but Cutlers victory (with 2 TD rush - 2 TD passing) was his 1st postseason game since High School. Never made the playoffs in the NFL and since he played at Vandy they never made a bowl. I am therefore suprised he had such a good game, although playing Seattle (not in their house) was a heck of a crutch.

January 21st, 2011, 8:40 pm

sweetd20

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: October 13th, 2005, 9:03 amPosts: 2490

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

Also the Seachickens dropped two easy INTs with Babineaux dropping one at the goal line that looked like he might have been able to take the other way for six.

January 22nd, 2011, 9:42 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

Pablo wrote:

This is a very interesting year as far as the 4 teams left are concerned, they each seem to have both. Notice all 4 starting QBs are 1st round draft picks but all 4 teams have top defenses as well Steelers (1), Packers (3), Bears (4), Jets (7).

Aaron Rogers - 24th overall pick by an established team.Ben Roethisburger - 11th overall pick by an established team.Jay Cuter - acquired by trade, to a fairly established team with a good defenseMark Sanchez - 5th overall pick by an established team.

Hmmm... do you really need to get your Qb first, or is it better to build the team first and then get your Qb?...

January 23rd, 2011, 4:04 pm

thegodjr

Walk On

Joined: April 29th, 2010, 1:17 pmPosts: 391

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Pablo wrote:

This is a very interesting year as far as the 4 teams left are concerned, they each seem to have both. Notice all 4 starting QBs are 1st round draft picks but all 4 teams have top defenses as well Steelers (1), Packers (3), Bears (4), Jets (7).

Aaron Rogers - 24th overall pick by an established team.Ben Roethisburger - 11th overall pick by an established team.Jay Cuter - acquired by trade, to a fairly established team with a good defenseMark Sanchez - 5th overall pick by an established team.

Hmmm... do you really need to get your Qb first, or is it better to build the team first and then get your Qb?...

It doesn't matter. Put a gun to my head and I would say it's better to get your QB first, because that is the most important piece to any team. At the end of the day it does not matter what "order" you put your team together, as long as the final product represents the components of a championship team. A QB can single-handedly take his team to the promised land, which is why you get your stud QB as soon as you can.

The Steelers were not established in 2003 (unlesss you consider 6-10 "established"). The Bears made the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman at QB, which is a testament to their defense (point being that Cutler isn't as good as you lead him to be)

There isn't one single "correct" way to build a team. If the formula were that simple, every team would build in the exact same way. You have a good chance to win with a great defense or with a great QB. However, you have an even better chance to win with BOTH. it's not like the two are mutually exclusive.

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

January 23rd, 2011, 6:48 pm

thegodjr

Walk On

Joined: April 29th, 2010, 1:17 pmPosts: 391

Re: Draft A QB or No? - Also QB Importance vs Building a Top

mwill2 wrote:

There isn't one single "correct" way to build a team. If the formula were that simple, every team would build in the exact same way. You have a good chance to win with a great defense or with a great QB. However, you have an even better chance to win with BOTH. it's not like the two are mutually exclusive.

Yes, thing is the defense is 11 (or more) positions that takes time to build, a QB is just one