Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

The second observation I would make, my Lord, is this. 1total of the observation I wish to make. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 3MR RAMPTON: As to that last point, Mr Irving, jumping from 4mountain peak to mountain peak may sometimes be 5necessary. Sometimes one can do it because one knows what 6is lying on the ground in between, and there is nothing 7the matter with that, is there? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, from one's general expertise. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no, the general array of evidence. Mr Irving, never 10mind that for the moment. It is the fact, is it not, 11perhaps I am wrong but I do not think so, I think you said 12it several times in this court, what I might call the 13residue of German wartime documents that we have got, 14whether from the bottom fighting units, police units or 15whatever, right up to the top, is fragmentary? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I would say on the contrary, it is there in embarrassing 17superabundance. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have everything, have we? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
There is such a volume of documentation that in the United 20States they still have not finished cataloguing it. They 21are still working on it and usually the Germans create 22multiple copies of the documents that they are dealing 23with. So, if they had destroyed in one place, they would 24exist in another. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So, unless a document has been deliberately destroyed, 26which it might well have been, one could expect to find it

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1somewhere at some stage in the future near or far? Is 2that right? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I would have expected to have found it in the past, 4frankly, at least one copy of it. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, the possibility remains that there are certain kinds 6of documents which certain kinds of people at certain 7times in history will set out deliberately to destroy? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I think this is a useful discussion. Yes, I think that 9with certain kind of documents one would have expected 10people to attach priority to their destruction but, even 11if that is the case, there will always be somebody 12slightly lower down in that chain of hierarchy between the 13person who gives the orders and the person who executes 14them who has felt a qualm of conscience or a pang of 15conscience, and who has written to his wife, saying we 16have to carry out orders that are too ghastly even to 17think of, and I found documents just like that, too. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You found a letter that the officer Dr Otto Schutz Duval 19wrote to his wife, did you not? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not find that, no. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You did not, but that is such an example, is it not? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I am afraid I am not familiar with that document unless 23you remind me of it. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You refer to it on your web site. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Somebody else found it, obviously posted it and put it on 26the web site. I am talking about around Hitler's level

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1there with generals who wrote letters of precisely that 2content, saying they are doing things in Poland that I do 3not even like to tell you about. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That process, what one might call the workings of 5conscience or anything else, might account for what you 6have called the occasional orphan document, might it not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes indeed, but also there could be an uglier process, 8namely a document created like the identity card of Mr 9Ivan Demjanjuk, which turns out to have been generated by 10the KGB for whatever purpose. We have to be constantly on 11the look out, particularly for documents coming from 12Russian or KGB archives. It is a remote possibility, but 13we have to be alert to that possibility. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Of course that is absolutely right. Can we start 15please -- I know you will think or may think initially 16that this is somewhat anachronistic out of our chronology 17but it is not really as you will see in a moment -- a 18document which I am sure you are familiar with. My Lord, 19it is in bundle H4 (v). 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid that is one I do not have here. 21MR RAMPTON: We seem to have quite a lot of spares here. 22Footnote 187. These are Dr Longerich's documents? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I think I am the first person to have quoted this 24document in fact ever. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Again, I am afraid it is a document which is sideways in 26the file. This is a reprint of the original. It is very

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1short. It is document No. 54 at the top of page 157 on 2the right-hand side: "Schreiben Himmlers an den Gauleiter 3im Wartheland Geiser: Ankundigung von Judentransporten 4aus dem Reich nach Lodz, 18.9.1941", which means, being 5translated, Mr Irving? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Which sentence are you reading? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I read the heading at 54? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Letter from Himmler to Gauleiter in the Wartheland 9Greiser, forewarning of the arrival of Jewish transports 10from the Reich in Lodz or Lodsch in Litzmannstatt, as the 11Germans call it, on September 18th, 1941. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will not read the German. Does it say: The Fuhrer 13wishes that, as quickly as possible, the Altreich and the 14Protectorate, that Bohemia and Moravia, is it not, shall 15be cleared and free of Jews from West to East? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you accept that as evidence of, I do not know what the 18word is but it does not matter, something that Hitler has 19told Himmler he wants done? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, Hitler has taken the initiative and has ordered the 21emptying out. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Which is made quite plain in all my books also, of course. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If mere deportation from central and Western Europe is 25Hitler's idea of a losung, maybe even an endlosung, until 26Madagascar is free, this is the date at which it takes

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1effect? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Not precisely on this date. It would have been any date 3up to this date. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
From this date? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It takes effect from this date. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
From this date. Well, can we then leap forward in time 7please, in this file? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I just express a certain amount of dismay that we are 9having printed versions of these telegrams shown us to and 10not the originals? The reason for that is that the 11originals have certain paraphernalia attached to them, 12which are not without significance. I am referring 13specifically to their security classification, because 14I intend later on to draw conclusions from documents which 15have security classifications and documents which do not, 16what you call janitorial level, or what I call janitorial 17level documents, and we do not know what classification 18this document has. That does help us -- I am sorry to 19speak so quickly -- to classify in the other sense a 20document into its degree of importance, whether it has the 21very highest security grading or no security 22classification. We cannot tell from this of course 23because the editor has taken it off. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I fear Mr Irving, I am naked in this regard. I have no 25originals. 26A.
[Mr Irving]