VATICAN CITY, OCT. 6, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI sent a personal message to Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II saying that modern times call for a hastening of the journey toward Christian unity.

The Sept. 22 message was hand-delivered to Alexy II by the archbishop of Naples, Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe, on an official visit to Moscow at the invitation of the patriarch. The cardinal gave the message to the patriarch in a meeting that lasted a little more than an hour last Thursday.

"I have a deep affection for all the Orthodox brethren, and I am particularly close to them in these most recent days when conflict has caused significant suffering to peoples so dear to me," the Holy Father said. "I never cease to offer daily prayers for peace, asking the Lord that the appeals of Your Holiness to resolve all hostility for the good of the nations may be heeded."

He added: "Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ is a bond that unites hearts in a profound way and invites us all to strengthen our commitment to manifest to the world a shared witness of living together respectfully and peacefully.

"Our times, marked so often by conflict and grief, make it even more necessary to hasten the journey toward the full unity of all the disciples of Christ, so that the joyous message of salvation may be spread to all humanity."

Getting closer

Cardinal Sepe told Vatican Radio on the day of his meeting with Alexy II that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are growing ever closer, "as the patriarch himself emphasized with emotion."

"The impression is that a very important step has been taken to create a climate of closeness and mutual respect, of fraternity and friendship," he added.

Bishop Vincenzo Paglia of Terni, president of the Italian bishops' ecumenism commission, who was also present in the meeting with Alexy II, said that the process of growing closer should proceed with meetings between the various pastors of both Churches.

On the path to unity, the bishop added, "meetings between experts are no longer sufficient." Rather, ecumenism "is a coming together of the Churches."

And, Bishop Paglia affirmed, ecumenism is more and more "a demand of contemporary society."

"The harmony between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church is ever more evident," he said, referring to the challenges presented to all Christians in Europe and contemporary society. "Certain limits and challenges can only be faced from a perspective of unity.

===========

Unity lies in the hands of the Pope and his repudiating all innovations since the schism including Papal supremacy! It's all very simple, let's all go back to what we shared, practiced, and believed when we were united and build from there. We Orthodox Catholics are already there. So, once again, it's lies in the Popes hands.

(Orthodoc)

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

With an upsurge of Islamic fundamentalism, the increase of the Islamic population in traditionally Catholic lands and the decrease of child births among Western Europeans in Western Europe, the religious leaders of Western Europe are in "panic" mode and want to make sure that their alliances with their religious counterparts to the East are in good condition. However, strengthening ties with anybody at the risk of hurting your own self-identity and religious ethos is counterproductive not only to Orthodox but also to Catholics as well. Must we believe that God wants us to strengthen the ties with Rome only on a superficial basis, based on panic and impulse religiosity?...

But wait a second, didn't the Pope just recently say that the Eastern Churches are "deformed" in some sense? and now he wants to commune and unite with this "deformed" body?...how come?....why the sudden change of heart?

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical. He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

With an upsurge of Islamic fundamentalism, the increase of the Islamic population in traditionally Catholic lands and the decrease of child births among Western Europeans in Western Europe, the religious leaders of Western Europe are in "panic" mode and want to make sure that their alliances with their religious counterparts to the East are in good condition. However, strengthening ties with anybody at the risk of hurting your own self-identity and religious ethos is counterproductive not only to Orthodox but also to Catholics as well. Must we believe that God wants us to strengthen the ties with Rome only on a superficial basis, based on panic and impulse religiosity?...

But wait a second, didn't the Pope just recently say that the Eastern Churches are "deformed" in some sense? and now he wants to commune and unite with this "deformed" body?...how come?....why the sudden change of heart?

+

AMEN! perfect example on how Rome continously speaks out of both sides of its mouth at the same time. The previous Pope was an expert on this. And playing the western press.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol. While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me. I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion. "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic. In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now. In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.

Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = when the whitespace is removed--in the above -PtA

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol. While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me. I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion. "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic. In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now. In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.

Wow, that's horrible. I don't even know what to say. And the depressing thing is nothing is ever done about any of it. I've seen and heard a lot, and I don't get why the hierarchy is uninterested in cleaning out the rot. Especially if the Catholic Church wants "unity" with the Orthodox.

5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".

I'm afraid to ask how you know that for a "fact".

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol. While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me. I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion. "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic. In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now. In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.

Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = when the whitespace is removed--in the above -PtA

My priest made the wise argument that he prefers Ultramontanism in the Vatican now to stop the chaos that local control would bring in the US.

On another forum someone said: We also have the pending TAC, which I try to pray for daily. I could also see the Syriac Orthodox entering into Communion with Rome, seeing has how they have a very strong Petrine theology.

It's probably not going to happen in large amounts, but reunion is happening slowly. In the case with the Byzantine Orthodox, it will have to be one National Church at a time entering into union with the See of Rome. The same applies with the Oriental Orthodox as well.

So I guess we are supposed to be picked off one by one, like a pack of wolves on stray sheep.

Is Balamand officially dead?

« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 07:38:19 PM by ialmisry »

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical. He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

With an upsurge of Islamic fundamentalism, the increase of the Islamic population in traditionally Catholic lands and the decrease of child births among Western Europeans in Western Europe, the religious leaders of Western Europe are in "panic" mode and want to make sure that their alliances with their religious counterparts to the East are in good condition. However, strengthening ties with anybody at the risk of hurting your own self-identity and religious ethos is counterproductive not only to Orthodox but also to Catholics as well. Must we believe that God wants us to strengthen the ties with Rome only on a superficial basis, based on panic and impulse religiosity?...

But wait a second, didn't the Pope just recently say that the Eastern Churches are "deformed" in some sense? and now he wants to commune and unite with this "deformed" body?...how come?....why the sudden change of heart?

+

AMEN! perfect example on how Rome continously speaks out of both sides of its mouth at the same time. The previous Pope was an expert on this. And playing the western press.

Orthodoc

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol. While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me. I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion. "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic. In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now. In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.

Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = when the whitespace is removed--in the above -PtA

This is very sad indeed. I once atteneded an Orthodox Church here in new mexico where the homily was nothing more than a promotion of a "social gospel". Also there is an orthodox priest here in NM who has told many people that the Orthodox Church is not against homosexual relationships. Its sad when Christians, Catholic or Orthodox, don't live up to their baptismal vows.

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

I don't really see how the One, Holy, Apostolic Church can be absorbed little by little into the Roman Catholic Church... I'm willing to agree that some jurisdictions possibly may join the Roman Catholics (though probably this is very remote), but not all will, because the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church will still exist...

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical. He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

So goes the oft-repeated mantra of Vatican apologists.

In actuality, we need to keep in mind that the liturgical outrages amongst Catholics, and Roman Catholics in particular, are widespread worldwide and completely out of control in some regions.

And yes Papist, I will provide you the factual evidence to illustrate this ONCE AGAIN if need be.

Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..." ~Acts of Barnabas

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

My dear friend, the view of Eastern and ORiental Orthodox Churches being defective DOES conflict with your desire for unity...let me demonstrate with this quote of yours:

Quote

the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity.

See, that's the problem right there. "Full communion with Christ's Church"...is that suppossed to somehow imply that Eastern and Oriental ORthodox Churches aren't Christ's Church?......And who made YOU and Rome the judge of what we lack? Once you and your comrades let go of your condescending and pompous higher-than-thou, if I can borrow a term from our Baptist friends: Romish attitude....and come to the table with a heart full of humility like that of the Blessed Pope Gregory I, who was known NOT to lord over his authority but was instead known to be uneasy with the lofty tiles accorded to him and saw the Eastern Churches as full brothers and sisters in CHrist, without defect of any sort...then and ONLY THEN will any Orthodox, both clergymen and laypeople, take Rome's wishes seriously....

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol. While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me. I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion. "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic. In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now. In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.

Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = when the whitespace is removed--in the above -PtA

What you have described above isn't Catholicism. Unfortunately, it's also the reason my family, longtime Irish Catholics, are no longer Catholic. They stopped going to church in the 1960s, and since then have come back (except me) only to the Protestant churches.

Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

My dear friend, the view of Eastern and ORiental Orthodox Churches being defective DOES conflict with your desire for unity...let me demonstrate with this quote of yours:

Quote

the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity.

See, that's the problem right there. "Full communion with Christ's Church"...is that suppossed to somehow imply that Eastern and Oriental ORthodox Churches aren't Christ's Church?......And who made YOU and Rome the judge of what we lack? Once you and your comrades let go of your condescending and pompous higher-than-thou, if I can borrow a term from our Baptist friends: Romish attitude....and come to the table with a heart full of humility like that of the Blessed Pope Gregory I, who was known NOT to lord over his authority but was instead known to be uneasy with the lofty tiles accorded to him and saw the Eastern Churches as full brothers and sisters in CHrist, without defect of any sort...then and ONLY THEN will any Orthodox, both clergymen and laypeople, take Rome's wishes seriously....

In Christ,

+

I do have to say (with no offense intended) that this strikes me a little as the pot calling the kettle black. Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said? That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? Sounds more to me like it is US who need to lose OUR "pompous higher-than-thou attitude." I think maybe we should all work a little on our own humility before judging the humility of others. Guess it's a good thing that we are not the ones "coming to the table," at all.

Personally, I think we ARE called to unity, but I agree that we cannot unify with such serious problems unsolved. But that's the key... I pray that the EP, Alexy, and the other Bishops who are involved in ecumenism will have the wisdom, discernment, and love to make sure that these problems are SOLVED, rather than OVERLOOKED before the churches come into communion.

I DO NOT believe that ecumenism itself is inherently heretical. I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations. Is that not what ecumenism is? Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church? I will never understand how anyone can say that this is a bad thing. The differentiation MUST be made that ecumenism is problematic only when compromises are made that sacrifice doctrine, dogma, liturgical practice, faith, etc. Those are sacrifices that we have no right to make. But compromise on PRACTICAL issues (I'll let you know when I think an example) is not in itself heretical. Nobody said evangelism was going to be easy...

With love in Christ,Presbytera Mari

Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

My dear friend, the view of Eastern and ORiental Orthodox Churches being defective DOES conflict with your desire for unity...let me demonstrate with this quote of yours:

Quote

the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity.

See, that's the problem right there. "Full communion with Christ's Church"...is that suppossed to somehow imply that Eastern and Oriental ORthodox Churches aren't Christ's Church?......And who made YOU and Rome the judge of what we lack? Once you and your comrades let go of your condescending and pompous higher-than-thou, if I can borrow a term from our Baptist friends: Romish attitude....and come to the table with a heart full of humility like that of the Blessed Pope Gregory I, who was known NOT to lord over his authority but was instead known to be uneasy with the lofty tiles accorded to him and saw the Eastern Churches as full brothers and sisters in CHrist, without defect of any sort...then and ONLY THEN will any Orthodox, both clergymen and laypeople, take Rome's wishes seriously....

In Christ,

+

I do have to say (with no offense intended) that this strikes me a little as the pot calling the kettle black. Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said? That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? Sounds more to me like it is US who need to lose OUR "pompous higher-than-thou attitude." I think maybe we should all work a little on our own humility before judging the humility of others. Guess it's a good thing that we are not the ones "coming to the table," at all.

Personally, I think we ARE called to unity, but I agree that we cannot unify with such serious problems unsolved. But that's the key... I pray that the EP, Alexy, and the other Bishops who are involved in ecumenism will have the wisdom, discernment, and love to make sure that these problems are SOLVED, rather than OVERLOOKED before the churches come into communion.

I DO NOT believe that ecumenism itself is inherently heretical. I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations. Is that not what ecumenism is? Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church? I will never understand how anyone can say that this is a bad thing. The differentiation MUST be made that ecumenism is problematic only when compromises are made that sacrifice doctrine, dogma, liturgical practice, faith, etc. Those are sacrifices that we have no right to make. But compromise on PRACTICAL issues (I'll let you know when I think an example) is not in itself heretical. Nobody said evangelism was going to be easy...

With love in Christ,Presbytera Mari

I completely agree with you. In my brief stay here, unfortunately one of the first things I noticed here among a few people here was the anti-Catholicism that they were spewing out...(to clarify, my post had entirely to do with Papists's explanation of how the Pope of Rome can in one breath say that all Eastern Churches are "defective" and then in the other breath say, "We must unite"....it has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church being the Church of Christ or Satan's or anyone else's) If the Catholics are seriously interested in seekign unity, they must display humility across the table. While I do agree with you that it is equally important that Orthodox men and women work on theirs as well, from an Orthodox perspective (and I hope you can agree with me on this as well), it was Rome who struck the first blow. As history progressed from then, I can say with honesty that both churches contributed to the broken state of Christ's Church (However, as an Oriental Orthodox, our history as Indian Orthodox has been pretty one-sided in that, it was the Catholics - via the Portuguese - who came through and destroyed our ancient Christian documents and subjugated the Ancient Indian Orthodox Church to the rule of the Pope....the only thing we did was fight back, and we got the scars to prove it...so our history is VERY different from that of the Byzantines). I do not think that ecumenism in and of itself is inherently heretical or anything like that. Rome, just like any other Church of Christ is just that....it is of Christ and since it is of Christ, no matter what has happened, unity and restoration is always a possibility....and we must work towards it. But as I said before, IMHO, Unity among churches of any sort, must not come at the expense of Orthodox doctrine and theology, for it is that which runs through the very veins of the Church...

...Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said? That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? ...

Are they Church already or they are not? What is your stance, since I see two contradicting statement in one single preaching toned post.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

...my post had entirely to do with Papists's explanation of how the Pope of Rome can in one breath say that all Eastern Churches are "defective" and then in the other breath say, "We must unite"...

And, after a must we can expect another Goa or Jasenovac from Rome, 'cause that's what they do. Unlike in times of Marcion and Byzantines vs Copts case, their beliefs do give them theological base for that.

When I hear these words I first think how no to find my kids having their eyes gouged for Orthodoxy by fervent RC's.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

This is very sad indeed. I once atteneded an Orthodox Church here in new mexico where the homily was nothing more than a promotion of a "social gospel".

Horror of horrors! (light hearted sarcasm intended)

I know I'm new at posting here, but I don't see how a "social gospel" sermon can be compared in any way shape or form to the absolute abuses of Catholic theology, practice etc that was listed in zebu's post.

There is simply no comparison, especially considering most level headed Catholics and Orthodox who support the social gospel do so in complete accordance with their respective Church's teaching. I admit I could have a different understanding of what you mean by "social gospel" (which I understanding as carrying out Christ's commands to visit the sick, feed the poor, help those in need, love thy neighbor as thyself, etc. The whole sheep and the goats parable basically....) Maybe you perceived something more sinister in the sermon, if so, then I can understand what you're saying.

Just my 2 cents as someone who believes that the social gospel is part of the Gospel of Christ. (notice small g compared to big G)

The way I understand the social gospel is that it teaches that the Church exists for the primary purpose of helping the disadvantaged, and that it ought to do so through political means. Those who follow the social gospel will stage protests and demonstrations in an attempt to convince governors to change their policies. This idea is especially prominent in Latin America, and it usually precludes the spiritual aspects of the Church. In short, those who practise the social gospel make the Church into a PAC rather than a religion.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

...my post had entirely to do with Papists's explanation of how the Pope of Rome can in one breath say that all Eastern Churches are "defective" and then in the other breath say, "We must unite"...

And, after a must we can expect another Goa or Jasenovac from Rome, 'cause that's what they do. Unlike in times of Marcion and Byzantines vs Copts case, their beliefs do give them theological base for that.

When I hear these words I first think how no to find my kids having their eyes gouged for Orthodoxy by fervent RC's.

Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?....I am not arguing against or for the above position, but simply consider this: If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

While I fully respect many EO's right to refuse ecumenical relations, this would also by default, cancel out its developing and fledgling relationships with the Oriental Orthodox churches (and mind you, much has been done in the means of achieving theological unity among both these bodies)....Rome was founded by the Beloved and Holy Apostles, just as Egypt, Syria, India, Ethiopia and elsewhere.....mustn't these churches, under incorrent human judgments and leadership, who were once strayed (assuming that the OO did stray, which I believe we didn't, but let's say for arguement's sake that we did), be given the chance to reunite (the same goes for the Roman Catholic Church)?

Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church.

OK, I have to ask this...I've asked before elsewhere and not gotten a good answer, and it really bothers me. From a Catholic POV, what exactly is the Orthodox Church missing? The Catholic Church says the Orthodox Church has apostolic succession, and valid sacraments, which to my limited understanding would mean that the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is the body and blood of our Lord. If they have that, then how can they be missing something? Is submitting to the Pope what it comes down to? But then doesn't that put the Pope, a man, above Jesus in the Eucharist?

I willingly admit my understanding could be way off of these things, but I just don't understand how the Orthodox Church can have the Real Presence, and yet be missing something.

...Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said? That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? ...

Are they Church already or they are not? What is your stance, since I see two contradicting statement in one single preaching toned post.

The only stand I see GreekChef taking in the post you've quoted is that we Orthodox on this forum can be very hypocritical.

The way I understand the social gospel is that it teaches that the Church exists for the primary purpose of helping the disadvantaged, and that it ought to do so through political means. Those who follow the social gospel will stage protests and demonstrations in an attempt to convince governors to change their policies. This idea is especially prominent in Latin America, and it usually precludes the spiritual aspects of the Church. In short, those who practise the social gospel make the Church into a PAC rather than a religion.

Oh well, yeah I can see that line of thinking as seriously problematic, for a lot of reasons on many different fronts. That's certainly not what I think about as the social gospel. But is that what the sermon Papist heard was really saying? I don't know. I wasn't there. Maybe so. I once heard a priest in a sermon say on the feast of Pentecost something akin to we no longer have to evangelize because everyone has already heard of Jesus already... so I know Orthodox priests aren't beyond saying some really crazy stuff. It reminded me of the movie 'The truman show' when young truman says he wants to be an explorer, and the teacher says, "oh your too late, there's really nothing left to explore"

But if that version of the social gospel was preached in a sermon then I'd agree that's problematic. Any time the spiritual aspects of are completely ignored in favor of something else, then yeah, big problem. No disagreement. I just react strongly to some movements that imply the social gospel has no part in the Gospel of Christ (a reactionary statement against the extreme view you stated) and that visiting the sick is not a spiritual issue and the like, because it certainly is. But now I have a clearer picture of what some people understand as the social gospel, with that understanding I'm in complete agreement. Anyways back on topic...didn't mean to derail.

Excerpt from the Vatican document: RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

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"Fourth Question: Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term "Church" in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

Response: The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. "Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all -- because of the apostolic succession -- the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds,"[13] they merit the title of "particular or local Churches,"[14] and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

"It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature."[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]".

Excerpt from the Vatican document: RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

Quote

"Fourth Question: Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term "Church" in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

Response: The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. "Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all -- because of the apostolic succession -- the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds,"[13] they merit the title of "particular or local Churches,"[14] and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

"It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature."[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]".

Thank you. So if I understand correctly-although the Orthodox have true sacraments, the Priesthood and the Eucharist, it comes down to the Pope. I'm still confused. Aren't Orthodox Patriarchs successors of the Apostles as well? Then what is it about the Pope per se that would make the Orthodox suddenly get what's lacking?

Thank you. So if I understand correctly-although the Orthodox have true sacraments, the Priesthood and the Eucharist, it comes down to the Pope. I'm still confused. Aren't Orthodox Patriarchs successors of the Apostles as well? Then what is it about the Pope per se that would make the Orthodox suddenly get what's lacking?

I'm sorry for my confusion. But I'm easily confused.

You've hit the nail on the head. Even if it did come down to the 'Successor of Peter" (and it does not) they still have a problem, as there are three Apostolic Sees which trace back directly St. Peter, and one of them is older than Rome to boot (that being Antioch of course).

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

Our "defect" of course being Orthodoxy's refusal to kowtow before the Archbishop of Rome.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 03:08:04 PM by Heracleides »

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"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..." ~Acts of Barnabas

...Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said? That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? ...

Are they Church already or they are not? What is your stance, since I see two contradicting statement in one single preaching toned post.

I was speaking of ecumenism in general. But let me be very clear here. I believe that the Orthodox Church IS, unequivocably, the ONE, TRUE CHURCH. However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid. I believe that it is NOT my place to say where the Holy Spirit is. What I believe I CAN say is that the Holy Spirit IS in Holy Orthodoxy. So yes, uniting the churches would be bringing RC's into the fold from our perspective. The entire point of the post which you termed "preaching" (forgive me for humbly stating my opinion on the matter) was that WE need to get off our high horses as well. I think we would all do well to follow Christ's example of humility. Don't you? Or do you think it's okay for us to judge them and dismiss them?

And for the record, no, I don't believe in the branch theory.

Thank you, PtA, for pointing out the purpose of my post. I appreciate it when people read what I've actually written, instead of reading what they want to read, passing judgement, etc.

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

DIXIT I tend to believe the root cause of that specific attitude might be the error of Blessed Augustine about dual principle within trinity, expanded as dual approach to the issue of good and evil.

DICOUnnecessarily abstruse. I blame the Augustinian bottleneck--the tendency for the Roman church to let the Hipponite crowd out all other voices and Augustinize the voices that were permitted. Had Rome allowed any other Father the same privilege, it is likely that similar deformation of theology and practice would have occurred.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

My five year Roman holiday was extremely painful. Although I never "heard" a clown mass, I do recall other masses (such as a jazz mass for Pentecost) which threw me. One of the nice things about Orthodoxy is that I generally do not have to hold my breath in suspense about outright liturgical abuse.DanM

However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid. I believe that it is NOT my place to say where the Holy Spirit is.

So, those three premises in your single post are contradictory, because:

a) either you don't believe Orthodox Church is the One, Holly, ... etc.,

b) or you don't believe they (RCs) need something from us (Orthodox) they lack now (otherwise, why would we need to "get rid off high horses"?)

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

DICOUnnecessarily abstruse. I blame the Augustinian bottleneck--the tendency for the Roman church to let the Hipponite crowd out all other voices and Augustinize the voices that were permitted. Had Rome allowed any other Father the same privilege, it is likely that similar deformation of theology and practice would have occurred.

DIXI DanM

No doubt about that above in red.

Even worse, certain errors of Blessed Augustine that lead to dualistic approach were used as a foundantin to build further, as if he didn't ask for correction of his errors. Dualistic tendencies in the entire system of RCs' today were based simply on his errors.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy....

An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

I'm burdened by otherone's sins only in case I justify them (and by those sins of my Godchildren that can be attributed to my negligence - but these are my sins again).

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

I also firmly believe Karol Woytila is burnin' in Hell now, on zillion degrees.

And you know this how? Can you not let the departed Pope John Paul II rest without disparaging his memory in this way? Especially since he can no longer defend himself against such vicious attacks on his character?

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical. He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

So goes the oft-repeated mantra of Vatican apologists.

In actuality, we need to keep in mind that the liturgical outrages amongst Catholics, and Roman Catholics in particular, are widespread worldwide and completely out of control in some regions.

And yes Papist, I will provide you the factual evidence to illustrate this ONCE AGAIN if need be.

Oh boy. You seem angry. You know very well that you canNOT just walk into your local Catholic Church and find a clown mass. Come now. Be reasonable.

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You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

The fact that clown masses, rock masses, puppet masses are staged at all, must make us pause. Are such masses with episcopal approval, or are they conducted by paracanonical (for want of a better word) groups? This is not a baited question, as I have many RC friends who are saddened (if not outraged) that such liturgical liberties have been taken in recent years.

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No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to PM me or email me at the address in my profile.