arrenfrank wrote:I just wanted to add my voice to the contingent that appreciates how long you guys are taking to perfect the game. This came up in the RPS comments, with people grousing that they'd paid for the game n months ago, yet it's still not done.

Heh - I come here for an update and I find that!

It was almost certainly me complaining on RPS and it wasn't n months - in 3 weeks it will be TWO YEARS since I bought into the beta and I was far from an early adopter IIRC!?

I'm all for QCF "getting it right" but I feel we were misled upfront. If people realised they were buying into a TWO YEAR beta during which they'd only have access to a browser-embedded/online required version, I think fewer people would have joined-in.

It's great that you got the support you needed to polish-the-hell out of DD, but when you ask for money you inherit an obligation to deliver something. You can continue polishing it as long as you like, but give your customers a version of the game they can play without being online and outside of a browser before the end of the decade eh?

I echo your comments TRJP, I started another thread which goes along similar lines and I've also been waiting over 2 years, you'll no doubt see the thread in this part of the forum.

Every time I check the news there never seems to be light at the end of the tunnel... just another update saying more polish and in a lot of cases plans for more artwork and refinements.

I imagine the game will release at some point.. just no idea when. I also feel mislead, and I have gone into that in the other thread and had response from the Devs. Sadly this has been a wholly un-fulfilling experience this, even though I am looking forward to getting my hands on the final product.

I don't really see what we can do about this problem... I mean, yes, I can understand that you *want* Desktop Dungeons to be out now. So do we!

But the game isn't finished. What should we do: Release it unfinished? (How is that different from the beta currently? Is the only difference no longer being in the web player?) Should we have not started accepting pre-orders, giving people access to the game for cheaper than the final price AND giving us the time and money to be able to afford to work on the game? Should we not have started working on the game at all?

What are people disappointed at, that the game exists? That they paid for it before it's out? (And we offer refunds to anyone who complains about this, yet people don't take them, so it can't be that...) That the game is taking too long?

Perhaps if I understood what people's upsetness was based on, maybe I could figure out what to do about it. It kills me seeing people that liked the idea of Desktop Dungeons being a better thing, being a finished game, somehow feeling like that shouldn't be happening anymore. I wish I knew what to do beyond just get up every day and work on the game until I can't anymore...

Almost two years ago I decided to take a break from DD until it will be released, because if I'm going to play a game for hundreds of hours it better be the best damn game it can be. I didn't expect this break to last this long. DD already was awesome back then, so I thought it would just be a few months until release. People who didn't play the beta at all probably didn't expect to have to wait so long either.

I don't mind, because as I said if I'm going to play a game for hundreds of hours it better be the best damn game it can be. But apparently other people get a little angry when their expectations aren't fullfilled, especially when money is involved.

How is the beta different from the released product? Of course there's the web player thing. And also I suppose beta saves wont carry over, which probably makes some people not want to spend time with the beta.

What to do about it? Showing people that you are on track to release might help. What's left to be done? What is already done? Why are these things necessary? This would give people a better sense of why they have to wait so long, which might lessen the disappointment.

dislekcia wrote:I don't really see what we can do about this problem... I mean, yes, I can understand that you *want* Desktop Dungeons to be out now. So do we!

But the game isn't finished. What should we do: Release it unfinished? (How is that different from the beta currently? Is the only difference no longer being in the web player?) Should we have not started accepting pre-orders, giving people access to the game for cheaper than the final price AND giving us the time and money to be able to afford to work on the game? Should we not have started working on the game at all?

What are people disappointed at, that the game exists? That they paid for it before it's out? (And we offer refunds to anyone who complains about this, yet people don't take them, so it can't be that...) That the game is taking too long?

Perhaps if I understood what people's upsetness was based on, maybe I could figure out what to do about it. It kills me seeing people that liked the idea of Desktop Dungeons being a better thing, being a finished game, somehow feeling like that shouldn't be happening anymore. I wish I knew what to do beyond just get up every day and work on the game until I can't anymore...

Hello again

Well to answer your questions from my wholly personal point of view:

Should you release it unfinished?No, you shouldn't and I am totally not asking you to do that

What are people disappointed at, that the game exists?Should we not have started working on the game at all?

No, of course not! In fact I think I praised you guys in a previous post on the other thread, telling you how brave I think you are for making such a different game. I am *looking forward* to Desktop Dungeons, I'm on your side on that point. I think your frustration is just showing through a little there isn't it? Which I suppose is understandable if you aren't sure what the issue is here.

What are people disappointed at, that the game is taking too long?That they paid for it before it's out?Should we have not started accepting pre-orders, giving people access to the game for cheaper than the final price AND giving us the time and money to be able to afford to work on the game?

I think it's best to answer these all together. I think what you need to understand that for me (and only me, I don't wish to put words in someone else's mouth) when I played the Alpha, and then saw the Beta was playable and I could pay for the game as a pre-order... I had an expectation that this would mean the game would be finished and in my hands within a few months... maybe 6 months.

Now that expectation isn't your fault. You could argue having played and bought games for years that expectation came from pre-ordering other games over the many many years of doing this... and not you. Usually, for me, a pre-order means the game is nearly here and you won't need to wait too long... and it's almost an "unwritten rule" that has been embedded in the relationship between gamer and game developer for as long as I can remember.

You never said the game would be out in full release within 3-6 months. In fact you never gave any indication of when the game would be available at all... and to that extent, I suppose I pre-ordered with my eyes open.

However you also certainly didn't acknowledge the "unwritten rule" I just spoke about, and you proved that by *not* saying the game would take another 2 years or more the complete. Perhaps you didn't know that at the time? Perhaps this has taken a lot longer than you thought? However it seems to me you guys just weren't aware of what a "pre-order" can mean to some gamers due to the norm the industry has set themselves.

Whatever the reason, you need to understand my disappointment doesn't come from a place of complete unfettered rage against you and your game, and the fact I don't have it yet means I somehow want the game to not exist.

My disappointment comes from initially riding a wave of excitement and wide eyed joy at playing the Alpha which ultimately led me to see the Beta in all it's glory and finally having seen enough and read enough... handing over my cash willingly... ready to feel that warm feeling of owning something new and exciting in what I perceived to be in a few months time .... like looking forward to this, like you would for a planned good night out or something.

However as time went on, that wave slowly.. but surely... lost momentum.. slowing down.. until I was aimlessly drifting around curious to know what was going on... and now eventually feeling like I've been dumped on the beach wondering what all the fuss was about.

It feels like you traded on my passion for my hobby and the promise of filling a hole in my gaming life that DD so perfectly slotted into so I would pre-order, a pre-order that I had expected to last for a much shorter period than 2 years and it's here where my feeling of being misled comes from.

You obviously didn't do it on purpose. You clearly didn't realise that I (and maybe others) had these expectations from you and I know you aren't out to screw me over, or anyone else, and it's for that reason that I am still here and on your forum.

I have refused a refund myself, not so I can retain the *right* to moan at you, but because I actually care about this game and developers like yourselves because you're so important to sustaining my favourite pastime and keeping it fresh, vibrant and interesting. You can't see Ubisoft, or EA or someone similar making DD can you? I can't.

I stress again, I want the game to come out when it's ready and I am really looking forward to installing it and firing it up for the first time and sinking hours into it and enjoying all of your efforts.

But that still doesn't shake the way I feel, it has just gone on too long and I suppose in that way the damage is done.

You guys carry on doing what you do and make DD the best damn game you can, and all I'd say is perhaps communicate your plan to us (or me) on how close you are and what is left to do.

I hope I've got this across and helped you understand why I feel the way I do and why I've said what I've said on these forums. You aren't the bad guys, but neither am I.

Like you, I'm still very keen on DD's release. However, I don't have the same feeling of "loss" that I believe you, and possibly others have had. What I have felt, is nervous that the game will release at all. The thing is, these feelings don't last. After many months of not playing, I'll login from time to time and see a plethora of new adjustments. Plus the fact we are still getting developer response pulls me back into a positive frame of mind.

All things said, Desktop Dungeons was never the #1 game I was seeking to play. Had it been, 2 years of waiting would have been agony, sort of like waiting to open presents at Christmas and the 25th of December never arriving. I sincerely hope the rest of you that are struggling to bottle up your excitement will continue to wait, as many of us have been. I'm still excited, and judging from Riaktion's response, he (she?) is too.

Thanks for the honest replies. Sounds like the best thing for us to do is to talk about the remaining stuff we feel we need to do in order to get the game finished. To be honest, that's both scary and a little bit odd - it feels like back when we started working on the full version of Desktop Dungeons we'd blithely exclaim that we expected to be done in 6 months, then 4 months after that, then 3 months after that... People got annoyed at us and the constant "scope creep" that they felt we were putting into the game, when it reality we were just really bad at figuring out how hard the stuff we wanted to do was going to be.

So we stopped talking about when we expected things to be done. Ever. I guess this is the flip-side of that habit. Sorry.

Truth be told, it's a really scary time in development right now anyway - we're running really low on budget, so the game absolutely HAS to be done ASAP. You guys are staring at a due date, waiting for a game to emerge - we're staring at an empty bank account, waiting to not be able to pay salaries

I think it is mostly about expectations that are not fulfilled. It's the same problem with setting a due date and then not making it. The best thing might be talking about what you are working on right now and what still has to be done, but not setting a certain date. The people in the beta are already happy (when they don't really care when it is finished and are enjoying the development process) or a little bit annoyed, but new people buying the beta should be told upfront that it is uncertain when the game will come out exactly.And finally, keep your spirits up!

dislekcia wrote:Truth be told, it's a really scary time in development right now anyway - we're running really low on budget, so the game absolutely HAS to be done ASAP. You guys are staring at a due date, waiting for a game to emerge - we're staring at an empty bank account, waiting to not be able to pay salaries

In that case it might actually be a good idea to set a (of course realistic) release date if you can. It's news to report, and news means publicity, and publicity hopefully means preorders. There used to be a bit of hype around DD early in the beta development, but it's all gone now because there simply was nothing to report. It's time to get people excited about DD again!

Regardless of what you do I wish you all the best in getting past this situation. You're making an awesome game, and you all deserve a chance throw large wads of cash at each other.