so compared to other classes hunters are in the middle for 2 bosses end terrible for others

so?

So Wait. Let's agree that 1-6 is top, 6-12 is upper middle, 12-18 is lower middle, and 18-23 is bottom, right?
So we're in:
Bottom.
Uppermiddle.
Top.
Top.
Bottom middle.
Bottom middle.
One out of six encounters with us at the bottom, three in the middle, and two at the top.

Do also note that this is kind of a bullshit point to compare us to ANYTHING, really - I'll openly admit that I didn't do every encounter on the PTR, but it might just be the case that the majority of the encounters requiring cleave are in this specific instance. There's two out of six encounter in HoF that supports cleave (Garalon and Ambershaper), however, Hunters are the best DPS that can be chosen to kite (due to our mobility), if you're not forcing your healers to do so (which I wouldn't dream of in a 25 man), which sort-of makes up for the low DPS from no cleave - while the cleavers are running around with the debuff, you're getting to go nuts to make up for the difference, while they're wasting time.

On the other hand, heavy-AOE burst is extremely good for another two of the encounters in Heart of Fear - Windlord and the Empress.
Not to mention the mobility that hunters have are superb for the first boss (augmentation, I think the discs are called?), and the second boss.

Untill all of the instances are released, and we can see the tier as a whole, it's really way too early to make any conclusions except "we're doing fine in the middle of the pack" at the moment.

The main reasons being:Gear is increasing every week.
If you want to compare, you need to find a hunter in XXX gear level and with Y level skill, and one of every other class in XXX gear level, and Y skill. Taking Feng as an example, Enh shamans are slightly ahead of surv hunter, but that Enh shaman is at 495/497 equipped, while I know for a fact Kayman was in 491 average when he did that parse (considering he's in my guild).
So is the 4K dps difference being accounted for with a difference of 6 potential item levels? Probably not. Does it account for guilds who are letting their AOE dps whore on the adds, and not shielding them (to get more uptime on the boss)? Not at all.

We don't have the entire picture yet.Wait till everything is unlocked on heroic. We haven't even SEEN terrace normal yet. At the moment we're middle of the pack, which is fine. Someone has to be there. You can't expect to be top every single time. People seem to think that we should be balanced around our capabilities in MSV - that's not true. We need to see what we can do in MSV+HoF+Terrace TOGETHER, then we can start yelling. It's sad, but it's true - we're not tuned around the first fights. We're tuned around an entire tier.

Originally Posted by Windthorn

My point exactly. If we don't excel in multi dot encounters, fine, no problems but then we shouldn't be getting smashed by SPs on Elagaon correct - just as an example of a more single target encounter. If you want to cite Spirit kings as example:

etc......, either DOT classes need nerfing or they need to fix us, or we scale insanely well and will do well when the expansion ends and no one cares.

Since when was Elegon and Spirit kings singletarget encounters?
Elegon has multiple adds (can keep your DoT's rolling on elegon during spark-phase as a spriest/lock/moonkin while nuking sparks and refresh in between spawns, adding sick amounts to your dmg due to the %dmg taken debuff on him, has protector + elegon always alive for the first 50%, has pillar phases with 3x pillars in range to be multidotted).

Spirit kings heroic has the next King spawn at 30%, which means that ~one third of the encounter is multitarget. Then comes the adds from Ziang, which there's almost always one up of during the time he's been spawned, and the arrows from subetai.

I pointed out spirit kings because that was one of the encounters you said we are doing ok, yes utility wise we are, dmg we are not. Even on feng with our strong aoe in survival we are not hammering the meters when you compare to say fire mages. As I said I raised this more out of questioning whether our Dps is mediocre at best due to how we scale.

Honestly, while dps is nice, what I really wish is that mm went back to the Ulduar days.
I loved the rotation of it back then, it was fluid. Now it is clunky as heck and feels like a different class.
If the dps stayed the same but it went back to the feel of the old MM, I would prolly play it unless we NEEDED me to play bm for a buff or something.

Been playing bm and think I will try surv... either way it is just holding out till they fix my true love lmao.

My Hunters DPS in raids is absurdly low atm. I am (as of yesterday) the highest geared player on my server, I am running BM with SV offspec. I Spec change depending on the fight as SV aoe is very good but terrible on single target. I use BM as my single target spec but am being severely out dps'd by everyone in my raid group and they are considerably lower ilvl. I have being playing this hunter as my main since early wrath and know my class pretty well. I used to place in the top 2-3 for dps and damage done, but since the xpac i have been getting hammered. The biggest problem seems to be that i'm getting focus starved and can't fire off my signature shots because of that. Being able to move while firing Cobra Shot ( which will happen in 5.1. or so I hear) will help somewhat but I don't think thats enough. As Hunters are a pure DPS class, with no heal or tank offspec, One would think the dps would be higher on the charts. Raid groups on my server are avoiding hunters like the plague now as they are really not much help to a progression raid group. I have researched every option available to me to find some means of Improvement, but I am at a loss. If you want to look at my character and offer any constructive criticism or point out something I may have missed, it would be appreciated. The name is OGO, Alliance Hunter on US SKYWALL. Thanks

SV Hunter damage is great. You are calling BM the top spec but from what I've seen raiding with similarly geared hunters, I out dps BM all day unless they are literally flawless in their decision making (which is rare so don't hold it against yourself).

When a BM hunter is truly in love with his spec and becomes an expert at it, it will be hard for SV to out dps that person. The problem is that most people don't enjoy BM as a spec and in turn never truly become an expert and think that they should be doing more dps simply because of how the spec sims.

My theory: Most BM Hunters play BM because of the hype it has received as of late.
My advice: Play the spec you actually enjoy because you will then have the drive to become the best at it, which will have you doing more dps.

right now SV is easier to play then BM, so your average BM hunter will be below and average SV hunter, but a good BM hunter will out do a good SV hunter.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 01:58 PM ----------

Draco, you say you cannot expect to be top middle every time... yet locks and mages to be bet the top EVERY time. Your logic fails...

right now SV is easier to play then BM, so your average BM hunter will be below and average SV hunter, but a good BM hunter will out do a good SV hunter.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 01:58 PM ----------

Draco, you say you cannot expect to be top middle every time... yet locks and mages to be bet the top EVERY time. Your logic fails...

Clearly you haven't kept track. During Cataclysm, Mages, Hunters and Locks has all had their high and low points. We didn't bring a mage for months in T11 because they were terrible till they got buffed to be decent. They didn't become "strong" untill DTR (where every caster pulled ahead), and they didn't become über good till they recieved their Firelands buffs.
Considering warlocks, they were never "clearly" on top for any tier. They were upper middle.

But that's besides the point - you're saying locks and Mages have been at the top every tier (which, obviously, they have not) - that doesn't mean any class can EXPECT to always be the strongest. No one "can". Just because one thing is powerfull for X tiers in a row, doesn't guarantee it'll stay powerfull. My logic does not fail, nothing is securing anyone at the spot they're currently in.
An example could be Boomkins - their AOE was like, THE strongest burst AOE ever through Cataclysm with Mushrooms (as witnessed on Yorsahj and Ragnaros). Now their AOE is pretty much dead-last, while hunters are bursting for completly insane amounts as Surv.
Also, hunters have had more "top dps"-time the past 4 tiers than warlocks do (t11 and t12, and argueably, after the buffs halfway through T13 vs t14). You just THINK warlocks have been on top for all of those tiers because you only look at the multidot fights where they excelled. Warlocks were good for TWO fights in firelands - Alysrazor (where they were argueably the weakest flying dot-class still), and Ragnaros Heroic (due to pushing meteors in P3 with their sustained burst over the entire bloodlust). Hunters were good for all of them.

Sad to say, I have not seen a substantial difference between those sims we all decried and reality.

I really do hope we aren't dead last when all is said and done.

My word. You seriously haven't looked at even one parse of a halfway non dimwitted hunter then.

[edit] The Simcraft stuff you're referencing literally had us 7% behind everyone else and you can honestly say to yourself that you haven't seen a substantial difference between those sims and reality?

My Hunters DPS in raids is absurdly low atm. I am (as of yesterday) the highest geared player on my server, I am running BM with SV offspec. I Spec change depending on the fight as SV aoe is very good but terrible on single target. I use BM as my single target spec but am being severely out dps'd by everyone in my raid group and they are considerably lower ilvl. I have being playing this hunter as my main since early wrath and know my class pretty well. I used to place in the top 2-3 for dps and damage done, but since the xpac i have been getting hammered. The biggest problem seems to be that i'm getting focus starved and can't fire off my signature shots because of that. Being able to move while firing Cobra Shot ( which will happen in 5.1. or so I hear) will help somewhat but I don't think thats enough. As Hunters are a pure DPS class, with no heal or tank offspec, One would think the dps would be higher on the charts. Raid groups on my server are avoiding hunters like the plague now as they are really not much help to a progression raid group. I have researched every option available to me to find some means of Improvement, but I am at a loss. If you want to look at my character and offer any constructive criticism or point out something I may have missed, it would be appreciated. The name is OGO, Alliance Hunter on US SKYWALL. Thanks

If you can't post respectable DPS when you out gear your entire raid group, the problem is most certainly your skill level, and not the class you play.

My word. You seriously haven't looked at even one parse of a halfway non dimwitted hunter then.

[edit] The Simcraft stuff you're referencing literally had us 7% behind everyone else and you can honestly say to yourself that you haven't seen a substantial difference between those sims and reality?

I was referring to hunter sims alone.

Your own sim has you at 82.3k. You did Feng N 3 days ago (I'm assuming it's Normal and not a bugged heroic) and pulled 79k. GG?

Your own sim has you at 82.3k. You did Feng N 3 days ago (I'm assuming it's Normal and not a bugged heroic) and pulled 79k. GG?

What does that have to do with anything? Did I say I would play to 100% and match the sim? Let alone, Femaledwarf is not a sim and when people phrase it as "those sims" like you did it's implied you're talking about the collection of class simulations from SimulationCraft. Femaledwarf doesn't do multiple iterations and give you averages, it does one which is why things like haste have such a big effect in it.

I still don't know what you're saying. It seems like you're implying you won't be happy with the sims unless you can do more than the sims?

What does that have to do with anything? Did I say I would play to 100% and match the sim? Let alone, Femaledwarf is not a sim and when people phrase it as "those sims" like you did it's implied you're talking about the collection of class simulations from SimulationCraft. Femaledwarf doesn't do multiple iterations and give you averages, it does one which is why things like haste have such a big effect in it.

I still don't know what you're saying. It seems like you're implying you won't be happy with the sims unless you can do more than the sims?

I'm saying that from what I've seen of hunter sims we seem to be equal to or less than them in reality. Which makes them fairly accurate at predicting our damage. Assuming that the other modules are within a reasonable margin of error as well, we get the chart simc predicts at the end of the tier.

I'm saying that from what I've seen of hunter sims we seem to be equal to or less than them in reality. Which makes them fairly accurate at predicting our damage. Assuming that the other modules are within a reasonable margin of error as well, we get the chart simc predicts at the end of the tier.

And I did not use FD, I used SimC.

SimC is the average, so for him to get exactly what the SimC is saying, he need to have exactly the same amount of crit's that the SimC showed, and LnL procs, and the right procs from the right trinkets/scope at the exactly same time and so on and so on....

SimC is the average, so for him to get exactly what the SimC is saying, he need to have exactly the same amount of crit's that the SimC showed, and LnL procs, and the right procs from the right trinkets/scope at the exactly same time and so on and so on....

Look his initial statement implied that SimC was just absurdly low and any hunter who could not outperform it was terrible. Which is definitely not the case.

So Wait. Let's agree that 1-6 is top, 6-12 is upper middle, 12-18 is lower middle, and 18-23 is bottom, right?
So we're in:
Bottom.
Uppermiddle.
Top.
Top.
Bottom middle.
Bottom middle.
One out of six encounters with us at the bottom, three in the middle, and two at the top.

well, more relevant comparison is with best specs of each class so the lower one with 11 classes

I looked up several top 25hc MV logs (best dmg guilds) and even on Feng, Gara and Kings hunters were in the middle of charts or lower and that is far from good

Clearly you haven't kept track. During Cataclysm, Mages, Hunters and Locks has all had their high and low points. We didn't bring a mage for months in T11 because they were terrible till they got buffed to be decent. They didn't become "strong" untill DTR (where every caster pulled ahead), and they didn't become über good till they recieved their Firelands buffs.
Considering warlocks, they were never "clearly" on top for any tier. They were upper middle.

But that's besides the point - you're saying locks and Mages have been at the top every tier (which, obviously, they have not) - that doesn't mean any class can EXPECT to always be the strongest. No one "can". Just because one thing is powerfull for X tiers in a row, doesn't guarantee it'll stay powerfull. My logic does not fail, nothing is securing anyone at the spot they're currently in.
An example could be Boomkins - their AOE was like, THE strongest burst AOE ever through Cataclysm with Mushrooms (as witnessed on Yorsahj and Ragnaros). Now their AOE is pretty much dead-last, while hunters are bursting for completly insane amounts as Surv.
Also, hunters have had more "top dps"-time the past 4 tiers than warlocks do (t11 and t12, and argueably, after the buffs halfway through T13 vs t14). You just THINK warlocks have been on top for all of those tiers because you only look at the multidot fights where they excelled. Warlocks were good for TWO fights in firelands - Alysrazor (where they were argueably the weakest flying dot-class still), and Ragnaros Heroic (due to pushing meteors in P3 with their sustained burst over the entire bloodlust). Hunters were good for all of them.

i'm talking right now, no fight is "bad" for mages or lock, where as half the fighters are broken or bad for hunter and only a very few even let us comepte with mages

Well. Looking back through this entire post, I see people who were deadset on hunters being "fine", yet now they are praising the buffs we got. Kind of funny to see how the community reacts to certain things even though the numbers are present.

Clearly you haven't kept track. During Cataclysm, Mages, Hunters and Locks has all had their high and low points. We didn't bring a mage for months in T11 because they were terrible till they got buffed to be decent. They didn't become "strong" untill DTR (where every caster pulled ahead), and they didn't become über good till they recieved their Firelands buffs.
Considering warlocks, they were never "clearly" on top for any tier. They were upper middle.

But that's besides the point - you're saying locks and Mages have been at the top every tier (which, obviously, they have not) - that doesn't mean any class can EXPECT to always be the strongest. No one "can". Just because one thing is powerfull for X tiers in a row, doesn't guarantee it'll stay powerfull. My logic does not fail, nothing is securing anyone at the spot they're currently in.
An example could be Boomkins - their AOE was like, THE strongest burst AOE ever through Cataclysm with Mushrooms (as witnessed on Yorsahj and Ragnaros). Now their AOE is pretty much dead-last, while hunters are bursting for completly insane amounts as Surv.
Also, hunters have had more "top dps"-time the past 4 tiers than warlocks do (t11 and t12, and argueably, after the buffs halfway through T13 vs t14). You just THINK warlocks have been on top for all of those tiers because you only look at the multidot fights where they excelled. Warlocks were good for TWO fights in firelands - Alysrazor (where they were argueably the weakest flying dot-class still), and Ragnaros Heroic (due to pushing meteors in P3 with their sustained burst over the entire bloodlust). Hunters were good for all of them.

Considering you can go back all the way to before icc and see warlocks and mages in the top spot for dps in ALL of cata there was about 4 or 5 bosses where rogues(in DS specifically) or a random class were number 1 yet lock and especially mage are in the top 5.

Mages were ALWAYS strong since the beginning of wotlk and were god like in PvP before then as well in BC (didnt play in vanilla) wotlk arcane shat on everyone single target and then when fire started scaling near the end that rose to the top and stayed. the only instance in wotlk that mages didnt rank one in over 50% of the fights was DS because some chinese guild fucked up half the logs and even then the only fight they lost in was to shadow priest which was lich king and a frost dk on lady deathwhisper with mages in 2-7 spots. In cata mages were by far the best damage you could bring besides REALLY geared shadow priests cause they scaled better.

and yeah warlocks ehhh the only reason they are getting alot of attention now is because soulburn+soul swap is retarded strong for multidotting.

but come on in ANY expansion this one hunters have been the lowest EVER and mages are BEYOND BEYOND broken like how can you say they arent looking back the top 10 had diversity most of the time now its like the top 200 on 90% of the fights are ALWAYS fire mages.

What talent do people recommend for heroic grinding as sv? murder of crows is way too much of a pain to cast for 60 focus and hits so weak.

well as i've found it, and fyi im new 90 hunter. murder of crows does well as long as your target is alive to take the 30 seconds of its damage, min was critting at 7k, 20k, steady and im in 450-463 gear non upgraded, atm just doing 22k as survival, brother mentioned to try Beast Mastery since im on slower ned that it will leave more dps to my pet to do, reforged all haste to try it, 5% hit, 4% exp, 11%haste, 10% crit, at first burst i did 60k+ dps but as the heroic went on it went back down to 23-24k dps. leveled as survival and only use BM for PvP. hunter was fun until i hit 90.

im doing the same dps as i did at 80-84, and i get what everyone is saying, blizz completely robs your stats once you hit 90, i used to stack haste instead of crit, with capped hit/exp. rarely ran out of focus to bother with steady/cobra shot.

at lvl 79 i had 25% haste and doing 15k face rolling. i've tried noxxic's crap and im not in full tier or on t1 internet.

BM and survival is within 1k dps for me but haven't got a perfect rotation yet for bm. rather stay survival since its what i know. was marksman back when hunters used melee attacks haha. but haven't tried marksman at current level.

Wow's scaling is ticking me off seeing panda's fat butts spinning crane kicks and stomping 70k dps in heroic 5mans, while the classes we longer-running gamers know. only a slight handfull of hunters i've seen do over 40k, none over 60k dps yet that i've seen.

Your seeing bad dmg on boss's because your playing surv witch has crap burst compared to many other specs.
But surv does very well on trash, probably better then most class/specs.
BM has amazing burst, but can be a bit complicating to open correctly.
If done well however, where talking about some of the best burst in the game currently.
It's a bit of a dilemma in that you have to choose whether you want high trash dmg and low boss dmg, or high boss dmg and low trash dmg, when choosing your heroic dungeon spec.
Alternatively you can change specs mid dungeon as you go.
Overall Hunter PvE dmg is pretty solid, and if what ive said in this post doesnt fit what your experiencing, then its very likely a L2P issue.