On Grouping (a diatribe in B minor)

There are many topics that that migrate through the MMO blogosphere and similar environs (forums, interest groups) time and time again… collective murmurs of discontent, distillates of remembered experiences and hopeful conjecture. One of the more common ones of late centers on the concept of “grouping”.

Now, I am sympathetic to the feelings and desires that drive the selection of that topic of conversation. I have fond memories of groups in games past (and present), and I can understand the desire to recreate that experience. However, I must admit to some frustration as well, because to me, much of the commentary blames the wrong “suspects”.

In short: your fellow players are neither the problem nor the enemy, whether they choose to entertain you or not.

Bad Reactions

Every time I see a comment to the effect of “I don’t see why people even bother playing an MMO if they’re not going to group…”, I have to fight down several basically unfair and counterproductive reactions. First, I have to fight off the temptation to add “…with me, to perform for me and keep me entertained” to the end of that statement. That’s what it typically sounds like (tho not always)… I know that’s not the intent.

As someone who does not often group (and who gets to actually play only slightly more often), I then have to fight off the temptation to post an offer to discontinue paying some $60-80 per month (plus box prices, of course) for various subscriptions to various MMOs, since I’m obviously not worthy to grace the same forms of entertainment by their standards. How dare I, right?

Then I have to fight off a nasty reaction to give them exactly what they are asking for… literally “stalk” them with all my various characters on the games I do subscribe to and group up, then just let events run their course… be the lone healer that logs off in the middle of a combat because my emergency pager went off, go afk outside a mission for 15-20 minutes to deal with an after-hours customer request. In short, just let all the reasons why I don’t regularly group out of consideration for others drive the situation, instead. Not exactly a strategy that would lead to an after-life of heavenly grace, I expect…

And then, after all that, I finally get to the heart of the matter: that this is a somewhat misdirected, but sincerely heart-felt yearning for all those great experiences that groups can provide… and that seem to become less and less common as time goes by.

Allow me to present a few random thoughts in hope of redirecting the collective musings to other lines of attack?

Point #1: Are you sure it’s not you?

Now, I used to group quite a bit more often than I do now. In various MUDs, The Realm, UO, and EQ, I spent hours at time, days in a row, playing in groups of all types, RL friends, guildies, PUGs, etc.

Already I can see part of my problem… can you? “Hours at a time, days in a row”. Boy howdy, I wish I still had that much free time. There are days I can’t find 10 minutes in a row to respond to comments on the old blog here, let alone “hours and days”.

Grouping in MMOs, at least at the level implied by the type of commentary I note above, requires a certain base level of time commitment to be respectful to the other players in that group. It is as simple as that. If you can’t pretty much guarantee that amount of time… grouping as it exists today isn’t a comfortable option if you have any concern for your fellow players, IMO. Personally, I feel like I’m pushing the limits of imposing on others if I can’t dedicate 45 minutes to an hour… and given all the various people with varying levels of expectations or demands on my time, that often feels impossible to offer.

Now, if I gave up some of my other interests and pastimes, I probably could. Blogging, for example. My exercise routine. Technology research. The occasional movie. The even more occasional date. Sleep… I never liked that one anyway, but my doctor says I have to. I already usually eat while doing one or more of the above, so no time savings there. Work… hmm, now there’s an idea…

Point #2: Convenience is key

I posted on this a while back, but I’ll rehash it here a bit. Grouping in most of the games is also a royal pain in the keister. I can count on the fingers of 1 finger the number of times it’s taken less than 15 minutes to form a “decent” group…

“What about a healer?” “We need a tank, too.” “Jeez, does anyone even play healers any more?” “Need some crowd-control.” “I have a cleric I could switch to, I suppose. He’s a bit high level for the group…” “Damn, someone got to that warrior before I did.” “Is that druid over there in a group?”

Sound familiar?

Allow people to see basic LFG information before they even log in. Allow them to chat via /guild and /talk channels before they select a character to play. Present LFG information constantly, and make it convenient to opt-in at a moment’s notice. Also, make it easy to opt-out, so as not to waste other people’s time.

I have yet to see an interface or design flow that truly stresses the importance of groups by making them obvious or convenient. In essence, I have yet to see a game that seems to agree at the level of it’s design that directly interacts with the player that the second M in “MMO” has real meaning in the gameplay. I’d like to see that change.

Point #3: There Can Be Only One (Guild)

The above has been assumed by nearly every game I can think of. Why?

I can kind of see a point in “hardcore” PvP settings… yet, Shadowbane, one of the most hardcore PvP games ever created, allowed subguilds. AC with it’s patron concept had a gameplay reason, of course.

I can only have one set of acquaintances? It might be confusing to chat with more than one guild at once? I need to dedicate my entire virtual existence to a single entity, or I’m not worthy to play? (great, we’re back to that again…)

As a player, I’d like to have multiple allegiences/guilds to tap into to find people to play with, especially at 3 in the morning (which is the time I’m most likely to be able to group without fear of interruption.) Whether it would actually make finding a group any easier at that time, that I don’t know… but it couldn’t hurt.

I’m genuinely curious on this one, actually. Is it crucial to have one and only one guild per player on the social level? I’ve only lead guilds twice, once in EQ and once in Shadowbane, and I didn’t see any need to be draconian, but they weren’t exactly “dominant” guilds, either. Any guild leaders around to offer insight?

Conclusion

I could go on…

the promise of solo-accessible play gets people to log in that otherwise wouldn’t, and some of those do end up grouping, so that’s not your enemy either;

even players that _never_ group add to the vibrancy of the world simply by moving around in it, auctioning items, crafting and repairing equipment, etc.;

D+D style levels are signs of the Apocalypse and cause everything from strokes to tooth decay (oops, that’s a different rant… now how did that get in there ;-) )

… but I suspect I’ve already made the point to those I didn’t drive off with my little diatribe at the beginning. Solo players are not your enemies. Allowing solo forms of play in an MMO is not one of the 7 signs (levels, OTOH…). Grouping has a draw and a power of it’s own that is not at all threatened by “allowing” people to play the game without it… it just needs to be a bit less ignored as far as how it’s implemented, IMO.

My two cents.

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11 comments

I read your rant on grouping and I feel your pain. I currently am attending school, looking for a job, and playing EQII, LOTRO and Vanguard now. Just picked it up this week.

I have played a ton of MMO’s and various online games in the past and have almost always soloed. One thing that made me quit DDO was not only the inability to solo, but this magic box that most MMO players have put all of us into. Ill explain

/rant

I played a paladin in DDO and the day that made me quit was when I was searching for a group to complete a very early quest. Someone was looking for more for that quest so I replied to them. “What class are you?” they asked. Dwarf Paladin, I replied. “Dont need one..” hmmm, okay, dont need an extra set of arms that can do damage, extra body that can take damage, extra healer? “Already have a cleric, dont need a paladin,” i was told again.

This whole thing of we need this class for this, and this for this so once we get it, we dont need anymore, kills me. And it has become prevalent in every game I have played. Whatever happened to having the skill to make your team/squad work no matter who you have with you?

Meh, I could go on but I wont. The lack of RP in most of these games plus just not appreciating being told what role I fit makes me wish to solo. Of course a lot of the time I duo with my girlfriend who plays everything with me so that helps.

Great blog, I will watch it every day and honestly you inspire me to set my own up. I left LJ this week and had wanted to find a new blog space.

Do you think the obsession with optimization, like Grim’s example of group’s needing to have a well-rounded group, is the result of past MMO designs? If the classes model (at least in its present forms) or some other MMO feature was done away with, would players still feel like anything less than optimal combat efficiency is unacceptable?

That’s definitely a part of MMO culture that I’d like to strangle and bury in the back yard. I think that predictability and tigh constraints on players’ character builds are largely to blame.

If the culture of optimization can be undermined, grouping would take less time and be more interesting. But making 15-minute groups common… I’m not sure that’s desirable, even if it’s possible. We don’t want to undercut the social bonding that occurs in longer groupings.

In many cases I can see the very design of the games being counterproductive to grouping.

Levels are Satan, first off. You may out-level your friends or guildmates, or vice-versa. Only two games, CoH and EQ2, have made any attempt to provide a workaround, and CoH is the better of the two. Levels have been around since D&D, etc. pen and paper RPG’s because… hell, 30 or 40 years ago, I’m sure it made sense. It’s 2007 now, we’ve all seen that other methods work. “But levels make my job easier to design content,” you say? I say, “your company made *how much* profit? I’m paying a *subscription* for your game, maybe I don’t want your job to be easy.”

The Unholy Trinity is the son of Satan. This crap never existed before EQ, therefore EQ, Brad McQuaid and everyone else involved with EQ are the Zygotes of Evil. There was never (still isn’t) a such thing as “tanking” in D&D. Nor is there in DDO, despite seeing clueless LFG’s looking for them.

Get rid of levels. I don’t get on the aircraft’s PA system before each flight and introduce myself as a Level 60 Captain with Tier 3 flight gear. It’s just friggin stupid at this point in time. “But the customers are stupid, they won’t understand something more complicated.” They didn’t understand levels, and MMO’s for that matter, until they tried your game. If you bother to make a product with enough quality, they will come, and yes, they will learn. “If you build it, they will come.” applies to more than Costner movies, and should be a daily mantra.

Get rid of the Trinity. If you stop designing games around specific class roles, then everyone will have a role in addition to allowing your customers to do part of what they’re paying your subscription for: to be an individual in the virtual world you’ve created.

Grim, sorry you had a poor experience in DDO. Most of the DDO players are vets and know better, but I’ve also had a few “in the box” experiences from people who bring their poorly and preconceived notions from other games into one where they don’t apply. I just leave, it’s not my place to tell someone how to play their game, otherwise I’m being just as “in the box” by being so outside their box. If that made any sense lol.

I agree that soloing isn’t the enemy. I also agree that tools often suck. One thing on my LFG tool wishlist: the ability to LFG on a character I don’t have logged in. For example, maybe I’m crafting with my 45 Defiler/Provisioner, but I would love to complete a particular quest with my 70 Monk, OR join an XP party wherever with my 20 Templar. Going LFG on my Defiler isn’t going to help. Short of spamming the level chat channels, there’s no way to do that.

@Grim: Welcome… let me know if you decide to start blogging, I’ll link you up. Definitely visit some of the other commenters and links along the side, too… many of them are far more prolific than I (and better writers to boot. :-) )

The effect of classes as currently implemented on grouping is an interesting phenomenon in itself. It both drives it and limits it, simultaneously. No one I can think of has found the “sweet spot” where you both allow significant distinctiveness between characters (at least a half-dozen different roles or so) and yet avoid feeding the “gotta have 1 of each” mentality. I go back and forth, myself, on whether it is avoidable via design or not.

@Aaron: a lot of it was originally reaction to UO, I think, with it’s flavor-of-the-month outcomes: tank-mage, dex-monkey, etc. Nearly everyone would migrate to the latest, greatest skill set based on the current “best” template, so no one felt “different” without also feeling “sub-par”.

I think the biggest payoff, and the biggest gamble, would be in creating viable gameplay in things other than combat. That might be one way of relieving some stress on optimization.

Another way might be to have distinctive but equally powerful synergies between various class combinations… multiple “tanks” have an additive/ exponential effect on each other’s resistance and resilience, for example, such that a healer is less necessary in that scenario. As an aside: combat healing in general really skews the entire combat balance equation horribly (and I say that as someone who likes playing healers)… a game that lacked or severely limited just that one very specific ability would end up a very different game.

A third way might be to change the combat dynamics to something other than simple depletion, such that it’s not a simple matter of (our DPS-your healing)>(your DPS-our healing)=We Win!

I always hesitate to comment on guilds because (being the anti-social cuss I am), I never am quite sure I understand how other people use/view them. I remember a discussion about family guilds vs. raiding guilds which would have tied in to that part a few months back, but I couldn’t seem to find the right blog/time period to link to it/research… do you remember where some of that was?

(We should start a wiki that just tracks MMO blog discussion topics and threads, lol.)

@Talyn: while I sympathize (I’ve written similar rants, I assure you), levels do serve some real purposes in design… if you haven’t had a chance, check out Damion Schubert’s (Zen of Design blog) presentation from last year’s AGDC (if I recall, I think he posted the slides last October). I’ve linked to it a few times in the past… he makes some good points. I do believe there are other ways of achieving the same goals: but it’s not just “laziness” or anything like that which drives it’s utilization.

@Lars: a good addition to LFG functionality, and one I hadn’t thought of. An excellent idea.

@Damiano: I’ll find the link to Damion’s AGDC presentation. I probably read it back then, but it couldn’t hurt to re-read. Regardless, I personally feel levels wind up more an detriment than they were planned to be. I truly believe having “levels” and “level caps” was the origin of “now what do we do, since we’ve ‘beaten’ the game?” which has (d)evolved into what we currently call an end-game. End game, in a game with no end. Levels also make content irrelevant. If I walk outside my condo right now, there could easily be an alligator near the pond. Perhaps it’s hungry and perhaps I smell like a tasty snack. In MMO terms, that alligator is level 1-5 vs. me being level 1 (since I just walked out of the house to begin an adventure). Now if I end up traveling north then west, having multiple adventures, learning tons of new stuff for squishie little brain to absorb and mutate, and I wind up in LA at level 50. Does that mean if I rush home, the alligator is now as powerless to me as a gnat? Do I recklessly wade into the pond, daring this puny creature to even look at me cross-eyed? Part of great literary adventures included the “coming home” process. In MMO’s saying that “coming home” is anti-climatic is the understatement of the century. There’s no reason to ever visit the low level zones because everyone and everything in them has become useless, powerless grey mobs. But in life, does having a grand adventure somewhere across the country invalidate your own coming home? Probably not…

That’s a huge issue that eventually someone will have to tackle, and I’ll wager that levels will be one of the first items on the chopping block to accomplish it.

I really just wanted to throw in the proviso (which was Mr. Schubert’s point as well) that levels do provide certain benefits in addition to limitations… so as we look at alternatives, we need to consider those as well.

I had more, but work is still being insistent about having my attention…

Hey, tis Grim from above. I got a blog..workin on it over time. Actually have a post that is just a link to a vid about Vanguard. Thanks folks for making me feel very very welcome to this blogging community.

> The effect of classes as currently implemented on grouping is an interesting phenomenon in itself. It both drives it and limits it, simultaneously. No one I can think of has found the “sweet spot” where you both allow significant distinctiveness between characters (at least a half-dozen different roles or so) and yet avoid feeding the “gotta have 1 of each” mentality. I go back and forth, myself, on whether it is avoidable via design or not.

This is crazy that I keep using DDO as an example, but here’s yet another one: perhaps it’s the nature of the D&D classes vs. standard MMO classes but there seem to only be a select few high end dungeons and raids that you “need” a cleric along for the ride to keep everyone along. DDO (and hence, D&D I will presume?) classes seem to be such that no matter what the class, you have a role in the group. Can’t so much say that in WoW and other “in the box” MMO’s.

One other comment I’ll make in DDO’s favor: it’s the closest modern game that I’ve had the classic EQ grouping feel. In WoW/LOTRO/EQ2 we’ll group to complete a single task or quest then leave. In DDO, often we’ll begin the group for one adventure then a lot of “ok, now what do you guys wanna do? cool, let’s go!” and the group sticks together. Or alternatively the other day I joined a group for the new wilderness area I’d never seen. We got in, went exploring and soon one person left. The leader put up an LFG and we got another person in less than a minute. This continued for the entire time we were in Searing Heights, the group was pretty much a revolving door with no set classes. It was literally a free for all, there was no point in being snobby and only recruiting certain classes, it was more “hey, we’re doing this, come on in and join the fun.” Soon even the leader had to leave and handed the reins to me and I kept the process going until I had to leave and handed it over to the next guy. Experiences like that are priceless, and all too rare these days.

I’ve encountered that kind of grouping in other games as well, CoH/CoV in particular, so I don’t think it’s necessarily unique to the D+D class design. I think this behavior in particular is really more about player expectations than design, although I’m sure mechanics does influence it (more difficult encounters probably drive a harsher adherence to the “best” combinations of classes, etc)