Tag Archives: Liner Notes

Today’s the 89th birth anniversary of pianist Kenny Drew (1928-1993), one of the great acolytes of Bud Powell. I had an opportunity to delve into his musical production while writing the liner notes for a reissue of a trio date that he made for Xanadu in 1978, with Leroy Vinnegar and Frank Butler.

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Kenny Drew, Home Is Where The Soul Is (Liner Notes):

“One might take a single pianist like Kenny Drew and find in his playing many of the period’s dominant tendencies: “funk” [extensive use of blues voicings on tunes that are not strictly blues], Debussyesque lyrical embellishments, finger-busting up-tempo solos, and multiple references to earlier styles both gently contemplative (Teddy Wilson and Nat Cole) and hot and bluesy (stride piano via Monk).” – David Rosenthal, Hard Bop: Jazz and Black Music, 1955-1965.

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Although the late David Rosenthal’s observations on Kenny Drew (1928-1993) pertain to the pianist’s musical production during the 1950s, they also apply to Drew’s performance on the slamming trio date contained herein. Xanadu proprietor Don Schlitten, who wrote in the original liner notes that the Harlem native’s best recorded performances (two enduring dates helming a trio and a combo, and sideman appearances with, among others, Sonny Criss, Dexter Gordon and Paul Chambers) transpired in Los Angeles during a 1953-56 West Coast residence, hoped to elicit a similar vibe by “bringing Kenny home to the ‘cats’” to cut a pair of albums. One participant was bassist Leroy Vinnegar, who had settled in Los Angeles not long before his four recorded interactions with Drew in 1955 and 1956. The other is drum-master Frank Butler, out of Kansas City, whose intuitively spot-on responses within the flow on Home Is Where The Soul Is and For Sure—the latter is a formidable quintet with Xanadu regulars Charles McPherson and Sam Noto on the front line—belies the fact that he was interacting with Drew for the first time. Like Drew, these Los Angeles bebop warriors were 1928 babies.

It’s interesting that the proceedings conclude with Drew’s a cappella tour de force on “Yesterdays,” which he played on 16 separate occasions during his 43 years as a recording artist. This version (not included on the original LP release of Home Is Where The Soul Is) is different in feel and configuration than the brisk interpretation 24-year-old Drew uncorked on his first leader date, done on April 16, 1953 for Blue Note in the percolating company of bassist Curley Russell and drummer Art Blakey. “Kenny’s work is cast in the modernist mold, but it seems to owe allegiance to no one model,” Leonard Feather wrote on the back cover of the original 10″ LP. “On the contrary, a careful hearing of these sides will reveal that he has already developed his own personality at the keyboard.”

Feather was softpedaling Drew’s informed, idiosyncratic, virtuosic allegiance to Bud Powell, four years Drew’s senior and a fellow Harlemite, which is evident in the younger pianist’s efflorescent treatments of “Be My Love,” “Lover Come Back To Me” and “It Might As Well Be Spring.” But he is nonetheless correct that Drew had already constructed his own nascent voice, one informed by close study of tributaries established by Powell, Art Tatum, Teddy Wilson, Nat Cole, George Shearing and perhaps, by 1953, Horace Silver. He’d been at it for while: Feather writes that Drew, whose mother was a classical pianist, took his first lessons at 5, was a skilled boogie-woogie pianist during adolescence, and assiduously soaked up Tatum, Wilson and Fats Waller during his teens. After high school, he apprenticed at a dance school run by the pathbreaking Trinidad-born dancer-choreographer Pearl Primus, who incorporated African and Caribbean elements into her touring show.

During the latter ’40s, as Ira Gitler wrote in the liner notes to Drew’s 1961 Blue Note record, Undercurrent, Drew augmented his university of the streets education, alternating on piano with Walter Bishop, Jr. in a band with uptown up-and-comers Sonny Rollins, Jackie McLean and Arthur Taylor. Feather remarks that Drew entered the fray for real after a maiden studio voyage with Howard McGhee in January 1950 for Blue Note. Over the next two years, Drew would share bandstands and record with the likes of Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Stan Getz, Miles Davis, Rollins, Milt Jackson, Oscar Pettiford, Sonny Stitt and Paul Quinichette. He began to garner national attention in 1952, when bebop clarinet pioneer Buddy DeFranco brought him on the road; indeed, Drew’s aforementioned trio debut date occurred the same week as two DeFranco sessions for Norman Granz’s Clef label. Perhaps Drew’s blend of orchestral chops, impeccable touch, stylistic range, and improvisational imagination, not to mention the level of authoritative intention at which he operated, reminded Granz of Oscar Peterson. Whatever the case, Granz signed Drew to his Norgran imprint, for which he generated two solos and four trio numbers with bassist Eugene Wright and drummer Specs Wright.

On tour with DeFranco in San Francisco in late 1953, Drew was arrested on heroin-related charges. His appearance on a July 1954 Zoot Sims session in Hollywood indicates that he served little if any time, but his relationship with Granz—for whom Drew recorded a marvelous trio recital with Wright and drummer Larance Marable in L.A. that September—fizzled out, and his career gained no traction. He resettled in New York in 1956, but remained on a similar treadmill, despite sidemanning on two hands’ worth of iconic hardbop classics for Riverside and Blue Note (the short list includes John Coltrane’s Blue Train, Johnny Griffin’s Way Out!, Jackie McLean’s Jackie’s Bag and Bluesnik, Kenny Dorham’s Whistle Stop and Showboat, and Dexter Gordon’s Dexter Calling), as well as leading two highest-caliber trio dates for Riverside with Paul Chambers or Wilbur Ware on bass and Philly Joe Jones on drums, and an epic duo encounter with Ware. In 1958 (the year his son, Kenny Drew, Jr.—himself a meta-virtuoso pianist—was born), Drew worked with Buddy Rich. In 1959, he moved to Miami for a year or so, before returning to New York City.

The first time Drew saw Paris was late 1961, on a European tour of Jack Gelber’s play, The Connection. After visiting Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark, he decided to emigrate. He met and married a Danish woman, and moved to Copenhagen in 1964. By 1978, he was Europe’s first-call pianist, with 8 contemporaneous LPs for Denmark’s Steeplechase label that showcased him in solo, duo, trio and combo contexts, generated on 14 separate recording sessions between 1973 and 1977. During those years, he recorded all but two of the numbers (“Three and Four Blues” and “West of Eden”) that comprise Home Is Where The Soul Is.

The set opens with “Work Song,” which Drew initially recorded in 1965 for Fontana with a trio led by Danish drummer Alex Riel that also included bassist Niels-Henning Ørsted Pederson, with whom Drew played extensively for the remainder of his life. At the time, this group was frequently functioning as a rhythm section for touring horns-for-hire at Copenhagen’s esteemed Jazzhus Montmartre, a hallowed venue that offered Drew a mutually beneficial sinecure as house pianist until it closed in 1976. Drew did “Work Song” a second time on a 1969 Ben Webster date for EMI-Odeon, also with Pedersen and drummer Makaya Ntshoko, and again two months before the Home Is Where The Soul Is session, in Warsaw, with a Polish trio.

He debuted Ellington’s “Prelude To A Kiss” with a working quartet (saxophonist Joe Maini, Vinegar and Marable), documented on Jazz West in December 1955, and revisited it in May 1974 with Pedersen and drummer Albert “Tootie” Heath on the sessions that generated the Steeplechase albums Dark Beauty and Dark and Beautiful. That same May 1974 encounter also generated a tour de force presentation of “It Could Happen To You,” a Powell favorite that Drew had previously waxed with DeFranco (the day before his Blue Note debut) and in 1958 with Chet Baker. There, as here, Drew opens with improvised rubato “concertizing” before morphing into deep two-handed swing.

The Drew-Vinnegar-Butler trio addresses Drew’s original, “Only You,” at a brisk clip that imparts a much different ambiance than its balladic representation on Lite Flite, Drew’s February 1977 New York quintet recital with Thad Jones, Bob Berg, George Mraz and Jimmy Cobb. He concluded Home Is Where The Soul Is with the gentle, elegiac “Ending,” which first appeared on Ruby My Dear (Steeplechase), recorded in August 1977 with bassist David Friesen and drummer Clifford Jarvis. The version contained herein stands in calming contrast to the joie de vivre embodied on the preceding track, Drew’s modal “Three or Four Blues,” on which the composer’s solo ranges from Basie-esque pointillism to two-handed Tatumesque turbulence.

Drew’s insouciant, humorous, imaginative treatment of this number and, indeed, of everything else on Home Is Where The Soul Is, completely justifies Schlitten’s determination to illuminate his artistry in this spontaneous, familial context. Here, as on the preponderance of the Xanadu catalog, Schlitten’s instincts were spot-on.

Tenor saxophonist-composer Donny McCaslin turned 50 recently, which seems like a good reason to post an interesting interview he did with me in 2009 for a Downbeat piece in which I interviewed four tenor players (Ron Blake, Seamus Blake and Frank Catalano were the others) on developing one’s own sound, as well as liner notes I’ve had the honor to write for an album he recorded for Arabesque in 2000 and another album for Criss Cross in 2005.

Donny McCaslin (Feb. 4, 2009) – (DB Tenor Sound Piece):

TP: I guess the things I want to talk about generally are: First, the process by which you started thinking about the idea of saxophone as a way of expressing a voice as opposed to just playing it. What sort of vocabulary you assimilated and how you applied that vocabulary. Was the process of creating a sound a conscious thing, or a byproduct of the process of learning. Can you take those sort of general ideas and run with it?

DONNY: Sure. There’s a lot of things I can say. As far as expressing myself on the instrument, that’s something I got into at a fairly early stage. I started playing when I was 12, and I started improvising shortly thereafter. Especially as I started to learn some language, I found improvising to be a great outlet for my emotions. So I think I was engaging with that at a fairly early age.

TP: Of course, you had your father as an example.

DONNY: Exactly. My father would often come to… My parents were divorced, and he’d come over to my mother’s place. We lived in the country, and there were these barns behind the house where I lived, and my father would carry his Wurlitzer piano up into one of these barns, he’d set it up, and then we’d play tunes that I had learned or was in the process of learning that he played with his band. The very first song that I learned was “Tequilas,” which is basically a one-chord jam thing—my dad would basically just comp for me. Then we’d go through, we’d play “A Train,” we played “Satin Doll,” we’d play maybe “Doxy,” we’d play a blues. What was great is that he would comp for me tirelessly. Being young, sometimes I’d get upset pretty quickly, because I wanted to play better, and I didn’t like what I was playing, and I’d stop. Other times we’d play at length, for what seemed like hours. I think it was through that kind of experience, and then starting to… I had a combo with Kenny Wolleson in junior high school, and then that continued in high school. As you know, it was a really good high school band, and I had chances to solo. It was there, at 14-15 years, that I started playing with a fair amount of emotional expression, where you could say it was a primary outlet for me emotionally.

TP: Were you under any stylistic influences at that time? Were you learning the canon?

DONNY: Yeah. My first hero was definitely to John Coltrane, which was mixed in high school with heavy exposure to Duke Ellington. My band director had Duke Ellington charts via Bill Berry, with whom he’d been in the service. So he had all these Ellington charts, and we were rehearsing those five days a week, and listening to the records sometimes. Those were my main influences. At 14-15 years old, I was listening to “Giant Steps,” and was playing through Trane’s solo. In probably my later high school years, I got into Michael Brecker and was heavily influenced by him. So in terms of language in that era, I would say… Well, Charlie Parker was an influence as well in the beginning, so probably Charlie Parker, Ellington, Trane, and Michael Brecker were my main influences.

TP: When did they start to become part of your emotional expression?

DONNY: Mostly with Coltrane it was… One thing I was so drawn to in his playing was this deep sense of expression in his solos, and the emotional intensity. I was really drawn to that, even though I didn’t understand what was going on. At that age, I couldn’t handle Meditations or Ascension or Kulu Se Mama or Interstellar Space. That was too far out for me. But I was really in tune with the records before that, listening to them over and over. It was that emotional intensity that touched, and then I was trying to get to the same thing as I was playing, just as a kid with that limited vocabulary.

TP: What sorts of things would your father or the other older musicians tell you about individuality or about the voice? What cues were you getting from people?

DONNY: I have to think about that for a second. My father I don’t think really talked much about that, to be honest with you. The guys in his band didn’t talk much about individuality per se. But I think that it’s something that… Gosh…

TP: How about critiquing your playing? Were you getting critiques?

DONNY: Yeah. I can think of a couple of things. I can remember once when I was a senior I was in an Advancement of the Arts sort of talent competition thing. It was a big thing. It was throughout the United States, and I flew to Florida for the finals. Bill Charlap was one of the finalists, John Bailey, the trumpet player, myself—and Rufus Reid was like the jazz judge. I remember Rufus saying something to me about not playing so many notes, not playing so much. I can’t remember exactly how he said it, but the gist was to slow down and to not over-play. Herb Pomeroy, when I was at Berklee, said something similar to me after a concert. I was in his various student ensembles probably my whole time at Berklee, and after one of the concerts he came up and said something about how he was happy to hear me play more melodically and not just playing a bunch of notes kind of thing.

Various people I recall recounting telling the Lester Young story of him being on the bus…I think it’s Lester Young… They’re on the road, and a tenor player is shedding on the bus, and he’s playing all this shit, and Lester—or maybe it’s Ben Webster—said to him, ‘Yeah, but can you sing me a song?’ or something like that. Various people…

TP: It’s Lester.

DONNY: Yeah, Lester is who I thought.

TP: Did that sort of thing have an impact on you? Because I gather that a lot of people were very impressed with your facility and power on the instrument as a young guy, which can be very seductive.

DONNY: Yeah. I think it helped, and I think I listened to that. Over the course of the years, I feel I’ve tried to reflect on it. At the time, it’s hard to remember, honestly. Did I all of a sudden buy a bunch of Lester Young records? No, I didn’t. But I definitely have listened to him over the course of my career, and have listened to various singers, and really thought about exploring different ways of playing and not just relying on technical prowess or whatever.

TP: Were you someone who transcribed solos, or you’d listen and put them into a framework…

DONNY: It was both. I didn’t really transcribe solos until I got to Berklee, in college, my freshman year. Then I got into that. Yeah, I transcribed various solos, then I started learning solos, and that was definitely part of how I developed my language. But also listening a fair amount, and just being on the bandstand a lot. It’s a combination of all those things in terms of how I developed my language. In terms of focusing on individuality, that came into play when I started playing with Gary Burton’s band. Even before that, when I got to Berklee, there were a lot of really good saxophone players who had a lot of facility on the instrument and who were checking out the same guys I was checking out. So all of a sudden I was hit with this reality of individualism. I remember hearing this great tenor player, Tommy Smith, play. We had very similar influences, Trane, Michael Brecker and whatnot, but he had a very individual sound at a young age, and I remember being really impressed by that. That made a big impression on me, like, “Wow, he’s not only playing all the stuff I’m playing, but he’s got a personality, and it’s really tangible.” I thought, “Ok, that’s something I should work on, I should try to develop that.” It’s a hard thing to develop when you’re in the middle of trying to assimilate all this language and all these different players. But what I tried to do—again, at Berklee—was pay attention to things that struck me on an aesthetic level, that seemed to be different from what I was hearing people do. I tried to be open to what struck me, and I’d try to take the ball and run with it kind of thing.

Gary Burton, when I started playing with his band, would talk about how thematic development could get you away from playing licks and things that you practiced, and get you into really improvising. I don’t know if he called it “real improvising,” but… Then when I was in his band, he would give… We’d be on the road, and he’d give the occasional clinic with the group, and I would be there and I’d listen to him do this rap about thematic development and improvisation… Again, it’s not like I just all of a sudden changed course in the middle of the stream, but I was just checking it out. Then, during the same time I had to practice some things in wide intervals, and I was always drawn to that sound, and I started thinking, “That’s not something that I hear people do all the time, and that’s something I really like—maybe I should try to explore that.” So I explored it, and continued to explore it over the years. But I embraced that, and then this thing about thematic development I think begins… Again, I was exposed to it through Gary, but it was a few years later when I really started working on it and really started embracing it.

TP: A lot of people in your generation are faced with this profusion of vocabulary.

DONNY: Right.

TP: so much information. One other thing (tell me if I’m wrong) that you might have used to explore new byways was exploring the pan-American conception and playing with Danilo Perez. I’m sure that brought you to all sorts of fresh places.

DONNY: Well, it did. My initial exposure to that, again, was playing with my father’s band. He had a group that had percussion and played Cal Tjader-esque Latin Jazz. I think just growing up with that, and playing with a salsa band, I really had an affinity for that music. This was after Berklee, when I first moved to New York, but I went on the road with Danilo, and had been playing Argentinean folk music with Fernando Tarres… That really changed things for me in a dramatic way—especially my relationship with Danilo. He gave me some serious pointers along the way that, if I stopped and really shifted course completely.

TP: Can you be a bit more specific?

DONNY: The first time it happened was in the early ‘90s, when we were on tour in Argentina with Fernando Tarres. Danilo said to me kind of what you’re saying: “Man, you’ve got all this vocabulary together, but you need to think more about how you present it, and you need to explore phrasing more.” I was like, “Wow, yeah, you’re right.” Then he gave me some examples, like, “Take a bar of 8 eighth notes and divide them into a group of 3 and then a group of 5, and play your melodic idea, but you can give an accent at the beginning of the bar and then on the 4th eight note. So you’re making this 3 and 5.” That was his initial example. I thought, “God, I’d never thought about working on stuff like that.” So I took that idea and really ran with it, and just worked on my phrasing.

TP: So it applied to music outside of just Danilo’s music.

DONNY: Oh, of course. Because in this context, actually, we were both sidemen. Then I did a tour with Danilo’s group not long after that, and then there was heavy exposure to clave, and to Afro-Cuban folk music, Panamanian folk music, etc., etc. Again, that was something that really changed my life, and I embraced it, studying that, playing with a lot of different groups—with Santi DiBriano a lot, with Hector Martignon. I just was studying rhythm, or studying those folkloric rhythm patterns and the patterns that go with them rhythmically. For a fair amount of time, I was thinking of the saxophone more as a percussion instrument…in a way. I would take these rhythms and apply them to how I would practice playing over tunes, and just try to strengthen my rhythmic vocabulary.

I know one of the overviews of this article is about individuality, creating a voice. I found that working on that stuff gave me a lot more flexibility rhythmically, and with that, a lot more freedom to explore leaving wide spaces, and looking at all these different ways I could approach the rhythm that freed me up to have a much greater range of expression as an improviser than I had before. That enabled me, I think, to get to a place where I didn’t have to rely on my technical proficiency, that I could think like a drummer, I could think like a singer, and I could have the confidence to do that, and to leave that space, and not feel like I had to fill it up.

TP: You’re the third straight person who spoke of thinking like a singer. That’s interesting.

DONNY: Yeah, that’s a really good thing to check out, obviously, if you’re a melody player, is to study the way singers phrase things, the way they’ll sing a melody. I think it has a real immediate effect on the way you’re playing something. Literally, I’m on the bandstand, I’m playing a melody, and I’m imagining that I’m Frank Sinatra, or I’m imagining that I’m Sarah Vaughan.

TP: Literally.

DONNY: Yeah. Of course, it doesn’t happen every night. But it’s those times when I feel like I’m playing the melody and I’m just on auto-pilot, or nothing is really happening, and, “Wait a minute, let me change the framework about how I’m thinking about this or how I’m dealing with it.”

TP: Can you speak about tone production? This is in the context of a commonly stated critique of young players of the jazz conservatory generation, that older players often say it’s hard to tell them apart. I don’t know if this is true or not. But Ron Blake was talking about a sort of orthodox way to play the saxophone, a certain mouthpiece, and so on… But the old ethos that you can tell somebody by their sound with one phrase, as with people in the old days.

DONNY: I would say that I feel like I can tell… If it’s Mark Turner, when I’m listening, right away I can tell it’s him. Or Chris Potter, or Seamus, or David Binney, or Miguel Zenon, I feel like a lot of people these days have distinctive voices, at least to my ears. I don’t have that feeling of everybody sounds the same. Although I can understand where that’s coming from. I’m speaking about people who are probably pretty individualistic players. Certainly, because jazz education has come so far, and as you mentioned, there’s so much information out there, it’s no wonder that a lot of young players will sound similar because they’re getting similar information. But that’s the challenge for them, is how can they take that information, those influences, and come up with their own sound. That’s up to each individual. In terms of equipment and mouthpiece and so on, I certainly never felt like I had to play this or had to play that—outside of playing a Selmer saxophone, which most people play. But you don’t even have to do that. Dave Liebman sounds amazing on what he plays… Different people play different things. But it is obviously very important to find your own sound and your own way of doing things, but that’s just the journey that everybody is on.

TP: is that a more challenging thing to do these days because of the profusion of information?

DONNY: Yeah, I think it is. I think it is. I think it is more challenging to come up with something that’s new or interesting…I’m not even saying new, but a way of putting all the information out there together into a coherent, original language. Now, that’s a challenge. That’s a big challenge. Because it’s not just playing over bebop tunes—which is not easy, I’m not insinuating that. But yeah, there’s a lot more to process now. Because of the way the music industry has changed and the way jazz education has changed, it makes it harder, but it’s easier and harder at the same time—if that makes sense. There’s more available, but yet how to put that together into a real individual language is difficult.

TP: Also, a lot of the most individualistic players of this period did a lot of bandstand playing when they were young.

DONNY: Yeah, I think that’s true. I can give you an example of that in my own life. When I was rehearsing with Gary Burton… he put together this Berklee all-star group of students to do this jazz cruise. I was pretty nervous, and when I was rehearsing, I’d never really got into my comfort… I felt like I was struggling or whatever. But as soon as we got on that cruise, and we played a gig, as soon as we got on the bandstand, I played a lot better, and I felt much more comfortable. Gary commented on that to me sometime later during the week that it was a big difference. I realized at that point, it was all the experience I had with my father, and with the group I had with Kenny Wolleson—that really helped me out. Because I was able to get into a more creative zone on the bandstand. I wasn’t nervous, because I was more comfortable there than I was rehearsing the music, ironically enough. That’s not the case any more. But being on the bandstand all the time, having to play solo after solo really helped me out.

For me, as I already said on the individual sound thing, it’s being open to it and following your instinct. What touches you musically? It’s maybe something unexpected, but not being afraid to follow that.

TP: Do you deliberately put yourself in new situations? For example, this new trio recording. Is that the purpose towards which you’re framing yourself in that context, or is that a byproduct of looking for different environments?

DONNY: It’s the latter. Just looking for a different… the two records I’d done before that were these more produced, more conceptual things, and I was like, “No, let me get back to blowing.” I was consciously like, “I need to do something different,” and this is different, and it’s a format that I love, that’s challenging, that has all this history, and so on.

TP: Were you thinking during your developmental years about an individual voice?

DONNY: Definitely.

TP: Was it totally for you, or otherwise…

DONNY: it was something I was aware of and concerned about, in a way. Like, “Ok, how can I find my own way?” It was a process that happened over time, but it was definitely on my mind, how can I find my own way of playing music in a way that seems true to me?’ I think I was at a certain point where I had all this technical proficiency, and I had worked on all these Trane solos… In other words, I could play all this shit. But it didn’t mean anything to me. It was at that time of, “well, if this doesn’t mean anything to me, then what DOES mean something to me?” How can I shed away all this BS and get to the heart of what I want to try to say as an improviser? For me, that was really embracing thematic and melodic development, which Gary Burton talked about and Sonny was really my guiding light for that. So it was like really letting go of… I can remember going to sessions in the early ‘90s, playing, and not even getting into playing a lot of notes at all, because I wasn’t hearing it, and I had made this commitment to try to only play what I was really hearing, and be TRULY in the moment as an improviser. That meant, for me, letting go of a lot of the stuff that I could “play,” but I wasn’t truly hearing it. So I tried to let go of that completely and to be totally in the moment as an improviser.

TP: Getting back to these older players who talked about telling a story and the dialogic quality of improvising, or that Charlie Parker would describe the woman walking into the room, and so on. Do any of these notions play into your improvising. He said that he applied some of the tactics he’d studied in theater improv to his musical improvisation? Do such things factor in, or is music a very different entity than verbal language?

DONNY: I definitely think about it in terms of telling a story. I’ll think about the beginning of a solo is like the beginning of a short story—you introduce a subject or a character. Then the character develops the story. That’s in a perfect world what the solo is like.

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Donny McCaslin (Seen From Above) – (2000):

Back in 1988, when Donny McCaslin was a 22-year-old senior at Berklee School of Music, vibraphone master Gary Burton hired him for the tenor saxophone chair in his quintet. The prestigious gig marked phase two of McCaslin’s education. A New Yorker since 1991, he hasn’t stopped working, navigating the diverse sonic ambiance of a congeries of top-shelf bands in the jazz mecca, which range from state-of-the-art fusion (Steps Ahead) to Latin (Santi DiBriano’s Panamaniacs, Danilo Perez, Fernando Tarres, Hector Martignon) to speculative improvisation (the George Gruntz Concert Jazz Band and Lan Xang) to the Mingus Big Band and Maria Schneider’s Orchestra.

All those experiences helped mold the fully-formed musical personality we hear inflecting the open-ended terrain of Seen From Above, Donny McCaslin’s second leader album. Here’s what the 33-year-old virtuoso brings to the table. Thoroughly grounded in fundamentals, he knows how to whip up interesting melodies out of the knottiest harmonic progressions, and doesn’t allow melodic essence to waver at even the nastiest tempos. His lines don’t land where you’d expect them to, he swings incessantly, and he projects a burnished, vocalized sound through the entire range of his horn. Most importantly, without sacrificing a whit of individuality, McCaslin has internalized a collective attitude to improvising, allowing like-minded partners Ben Monder, Scott Colley and Jim Black, all 30-something 21st century jazzfolk of like sensibility, to imprint their personalities on the musical proceedings.

McCaslin’s story begins in Santa Cruz, California, a university town and counterculture bastion 80 miles south of San Francisco, where his father Don McCaslin continues to sustain a steady gig as pianist and vibraphonist. “My Dad has a Cal Tjader thing happening on vibes, and on piano he’s really into Red Garland,” McCaslin states. “I’d go with him every Sunday morning to the mall where he had a gig from 12 until 5, and help him set up the piano and the vibes. Before I was able to walk around on my own, he had me sit on a chair in the middle of the band, where I’d watch the whole thing go down for hours.” A poor study in junior high school photography class, McCaslin decided to enter Beginning Orchestra and — inspired by the saxophonist in his father’s band, “a really colorful guy, very charismatic, a hippie, tie-dye shirts…I remember looking into the bell of his horn and seeing this pool of saliva with a cigarette butt floating in the middle of it; to me as a 12-year-old, he was really cool” — chose the tenor saxophone as his instrument.

McCaslin progressed rapidly, taking advantage of the area’s first-class music programs and first-hand interaction with his father. “When I was beginning to play, my father would take his Wurlitzer to the barn behind my Mom’s house, set it up, and we’d play for hours on end,” he recalls. McCaslin also was able to hear top musicians at Kuumbwa, a nonprofit concert venue in Santa Cruz. “I saw Elvin Jones there with Pat LaBarbera, and Sonny Fortune a couple of weeks later,” says McCaslin, who played a hometown engagement at the attractive room a few weeks before our conversation. “Every Monday night the big groups came into town, so from age 12 on I was able to hear guys from New York live, which was important and inspirational.”

He continues: “I was the only freshman in my high school band; my director, Don Keller, had a bunch of original Ellington charts, so at 14 we were playing things like ‘Diminuendo and Crescendo In Blue,’ ‘Warm Valley,’ ‘Blood Count,’ ‘Rockin’ in Rhythm.’ I could barely read music, and I was totally in over my head, but I learned a lot. My earliest influences were Bird and Trane, and then probably Michael Brecker, a little Sonny Rollins, a little Sonny Stitt. The way Coltrane played seemed so heavy and profound, so urgent; I always have loved the sense of emotional catharsis that can come through improvising, and I felt it embodied in his playing. Brecker was such a virtuoso, and records like “Steps Ahead” and “80/81″ sounded so modern, like the new happening thing.”

McCaslin matriculated at Berklee in 1984, where he reveled in interaction with a peer group of big-fish young musicians who’d converged in Boston from points around the planet, and took advantage of first-hand contact with teachers like Herb Pomeroy and George Garzone. “It was very liberating studying with George,” he relates. “He gave me patterns to practice that broke all the rules you learn in school, a lot of notes outside the chord scale, and wild intervals. During my years with Gary Burton, I learned a lot about thematic development, thematic improvising, being disciplined in the sense of saying what I had to say clearly and succinctly in, say, two choruses, and then getting out.”

Once in New York, McCaslin began the arduous, rewarding process of shedding chameleonic flexibility to inhabit the skin of his own sound. “It was only after I’d been in New York for a couple of years that I started to know conceptually how I wanted to play and write,” he confides. On a recommendation from Burton, he worked with bass legend Eddie Gomez, gigged with various Berklee cohorts, and began to find work playing Latin music of all description.

“I always had an affinity for Latin music in Santa Cruz,” McCaslin notes. “First, my father was into Cal Tjader and Latin Jazz, and I played in an 8-horn Salsa band called Los Shlepos Tipicos when I was in high school. While I was in Gary’s band he made a live record with Astor Piazzola at Montreux, which I absorbed. When I got to New York I sat in with Santi DiBriano at the Village Gate, who started calling me to play with his band the Panamaniacs. I’d been in the dorm at Berklee with Danilo Perez, who’d played with Santi earlier, and Danilo recommended me to Fernando Tarres, with whom I worked and recorded a lot. Though I had only a layman’s ear knowledge of clave, I did a couple of tours with Danilo in the ’90s, and he encouraged me to study Afro-Cuban music in a comprehensive way. I started taking lessons with Bobby Sanabria, and it’s expanded my rhythmic vocabulary immensely.

“Playing with Santi was very important. The band had tunes that were straight ahead, tunes that were clave-based, tunes that we’d play free on. I was put into an environment where I had to deal with all these different styles while retaining a unified band approach. And being the only horn player, I had a lot of space to play and a lot of responsibility.”

McCaslin took on similar responsibilities during his four years with vibraphonist Mike Mainieri in the ’90s edition of Steps Ahead, where he filled the tenor chair Michael Brecker once had held; he’s heard to strong effect on the 1995 recording Vibe [NYC] with musicians like Rachel Z, Michael Cain, Victor Bailey, James Genus and Clarence Penn. “It was a very good gig,” McCaslin smiles. “Mike is kind of a hippie at heart, and I relate to him as a person because I grew up in that culture. Whereas Gary was very exacting as a bandleader, Mike was really loose, gave me a lot of freedom. Occasionally he would say something, but for the most part he let me do my thing.”

With that background in mind, the stance of open-endedness with discipline that permeates the eight McCaslin originals on Seen From Above makes perfect sense. “I’ve always had a sense of eclecticism,” McCaslin states. “When I was at Berklee I played in a Rock band for a while, and I’ve done a lot of funk gigs in New York. I enjoy playing music. I’m not a purist about Bebop or whatever, though I love just playing tunes in an open situation with the right guys — it’s like going home. At the same time, I feel I have something to say as an original music artist, and this is the time to do it.”

The mix wouldn’t work without a band of fluid, flexible improvisers who share McCaslin’s ample comfort zone for articulating a wide umbrella of styles without ever sounding out of their element. McCaslin knows Ben Monder — who recorded the trio session Dust for Arabesque in 1996 — from frequent gigs with Maria Schneider’s orchestra; the guitarist deploys his vast harmonic vocabulary and nuanced orchestrative capabilities throughout. Precisely off-center trapsetter Jim Black — known for his work with Tim Berne’s Bloodcount, Dave Douglas’ Tiny Bell Trio, and Pachora — was a Berklee classmate, though, McCaslin confesses, “I’ve hardly played with him since. The way he plays, utilizing a range of different sounds with a great sense of colors and dynamics, is what I was hearing for some of these tunes.”

Ditto with Scott Colley, whom McCaslin met during the fellow Californian’s late ’80s tenure with Carmen McRae; he’s presently bassist of choice with Jim Hall and Andrew Hill, and is McCaslin’s bandmate in Lan Xang, an open form collective quartet whose other members are alto saxophonist Dave Binney and drummer Kenny Wolleson. “I heard Scott playing the bass line that begins ‘Manresa’ as I wrote it,” McCaslin relates. “I knew he could play it the right way — make it ROCK! Originally it was called ‘Hippie Rock Tune,’ because that’s exactly what it is to me! Manresa is a beach in northern California, and it conveys the feeling of home.”

The music of Olivier Messaien inspired McCaslin to write the title track — a lovely melody replete with wide interval jumps — and the up-tempo swinger “Frontiers,” on which McCaslin takes a spectacular solo, achieving an inside-outside feel reminiscent of ’90s tenor hero Joe Lovano. “Messaien’s harmonic language is so interesting, his rhythmic language is so advanced — his music sounds majestic and emotional,” McCaslin explains.

McCaslin penned “Second Line Sally” — both the George Gruntz Concert Band and Lan Xang have recorded it — during Boston days as a swing number; here it gets a fun-house Zigaboo Modaliste treatment, as Black gives it up for the groove.

“These Were Palaces” is a ballad written at the end of a relationship. “When playing the tune, I’m thinking of the way Jonatha Brook sings,” McCaslin says. “Her writing actually has had a big influence on me. ‘Mick Gee’ has a drum-and-bass feel. Jim suggested we play it faster than I normally do to give it that edgy feeling to contrast with the other relaxed, grooving tempo. I wanted it to have a shocking effect, with contrasting extremes.”

For “Strange Pilgrim,” “I wanted a swinging bass line with a quirky melody on top,” McCaslin says. “I wanted to take a simple tune and do as much as I could to make it into a story that develops.” It’s followed by “Going To The Territory,” a gospel-blues tinged tune with a Rock inflection that reminds you of early ’70s Keith Jarrett.

“Seen From Above” ends with a relaxed idiomatic McCaslin-Colley duo on the memorable refrain of Kurt Weill’s “September Song,” reaffirming deep roots on an album where McCaslin reveals those sources more through phrasing and improvisational acuity than in the formal architecture of the tunes. “Santa Cruz was very open in music and in art when I grew up,” McCaslin concludes. “There were salsa bands, straight-ahead jazz trios, free jazz, and I was exposed to all of it. It was all just music. I think that notion is something I share with all the guys in this band. This record is my music, and it reflects all the influences I’ve absorbed through the years.

“The thing that appeals to me about jazz is the freedom of improvisation. I want to do my best to play at the highest level that I can aesthetically. Playing with musicians of this caliber, who can lift the music into that really exciting and wonderful place, is what I’ve worked towards and practiced for all these years.”

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Liner Notes, Donny McCaslin, Give and Go–2005

Highly regarded by fellow musicians and connoisseurs of hardcore jazz since he settled in New York in 1991, saxophonist Donny McCaslin became a subject of mainstream jazz conversation when he earned a 2005 Grammy nomination for Best Instrumental Solo for his soulful, dramatic, architecturally cogent statement on Buleria, Soleá y Rumba, an extended opus by composer Maria Schneider that appears on Schneider’s Grammy winning CD Concert In The Garden.

On Buleria, McCaslin revealed the qualities that have attracted such demanding bandleaders as Danilo Perez, Dave Douglas, Mike Mainieri, and Gary Burton, who in 1988 recruited McCaslin, then a 22-year-old senior at Berklee School of Music, for the tenor saxophone chair in his quintet. In the notes for Seen From Above, McCaslin’s 2000 date on Arabesque, I summarized them: “Thoroughly grounded in fundamentals, he knows how to whip up interesting melodies out of the knottiest harmonic progressions, and doesn’t allow melodic essence to waver at even the nastiest tempos. His lines don’t land where you’d expect, he swings incessantly, and he projects a burnished, vocalized sound through the entire range of his horn. Most importantly, without sacrificing a whit of individuality, McCaslin has internalized a collective attitude to improvising, allowing his partners, all 21st century jazzmen of similar sensibility, to imprint their personalities on the proceedings.”

Let’s add that McCaslin’s penchant for exploration rests upon an authoritative command of the vocabularies of hardcore jazz and the Spanish Tinge, which coexist holistically in his tonal personality. A native of Santa Cruz, California, a university town and counterculture bastion 80 miles south of San Francisco, he first encountered both idioms through his father, Don, a gigging pianist and vibraphonist influenced by Red Garland and Cal Tjader. A student of sax gurus Bill Pierce, Joe Viola and George Garzone during his years at Berklee, McCaslin once earned praise from Leonard Feather for “virtually stealing the show” from Phil Woods, Red Holloway, Flip Phillips and David “Fathead” Newman during a saxophone jam on a cruise ship. On the Latin side, he played in high school years with an 8-horn Salsa band called Los Shlepos Tipicos, and as a ‘90s New Yorker, worked intermittently with Perez, a Berklee dorm-mate, with Argentine guitarist Fernando Tarres, and with the Panamaniacs, a Santi DiBriano-led unit that explored clave, straight-ahead and open feels while retaining a unified sound..

On Give ‘n’ Go, his Criss-Cross leader debut, McCaslin draws on lessons learned with Danilo Perez during 2001-02, when he toured steadily on Perez’ Motherland Project, and on his more recent travels with Maria Schneider, a frequent employer in 2004-05.

“Danilo is a great educator as well as a great musician, and it’s inspiring to be around him,” McCaslin relates. “I’d bring blank music paper with me at soundcheck, and as we’d play he’d tell me he was looking at a certain voicing, or discuss some rhythmic progression, and I’d write it down. It was like being back in school—he was sharing so much information.

“One thing that I appreciate about Maria’s writing is how every single part is meaningful. Whether you’re playing the fourth reed chair or the third trombone chair, all the lines have significance and are melodies in and of themselves. That’s influenced me. Also her lyricism and the sheer beauty of her music. She’s not afraid to do what she’s hearing. You can call it ‘orchestral jazz’ or whatever you want, but it is what it is, and she’s just putting it out there.” Helped by several preparatory gigs at Manhattan’s 55 Bar and Brooklyn’s L&M Loft, McCaslin puts out seven original compositions with support from an A-list cohort. As on all of McCaslin’s dates, Scott Colley, a fellow Californian, anchors the flow on bass. They met while McCaslin was with Burton and Colley was with Carmen McRae, and first recorded together on the 1995 Dave Binney album Luxury of Guessing. After that session, McCaslin, Binney, Colley and drummer Jeff Hirschfield—the latter subsequently replaced by Santa Cruz native Kenny Wolleson—formed the collective quartet Lan Xang, a touring unit until the end of the ‘90s.

Criss-Cross devotees will be familiar with the work of John Swana, the Philadelphia-based trumpet virtuoso, who appears on four selections. “Alex Sipiagin was always telling me how great he thinks John is,” says McCaslin, referring to the Russian trumpet virtuoso (also a Criss-Cross artist), a frequent bandmate. “I played with his organ trio in Philly, and it was a lot of fun. I felt there was some sort of connection, like stylistically he could play straight-ahead but also open at the same time.”

Here as on Seen From Above, McCaslin uses guitar as the chordal instrument, deploying Steve Cardenas, a Kansas City native who currently plays with the Paul Motian Electric Bebop Band, Charlie Haden’s Liberation Music Orchestra, and a Joey Baron-led quartet called Killer Joey.

“I met Steve more than 15 years ago when he was living in San Francisco, and Kenny Wolleson set up some California gigs for me to do when I came home from college,” McCaslin recalls. “He really gets inside a tune, and brings forth the harmony in a thoughtful way. He’s also a great comper; I feel he hears what I’m doing and makes it sound better, gives me a springboard to play off of.”

A past contributor to Criss-Cross sessions by Alex Sipiagin, Conrad Herwig, Ryan Kisor and J.D. Allen, drummer Gene Jackson is a master at alchemizing hybrid rhythms from ethnic metric signatures. McCaslin began to feel Jackson’s beat on gigs with Sipiagin and on several tours of Japan with singer Monday Ichiru.

“Gene’s playing is very strong, and he likes to go for it and stretch,” McCaslin remarks. “But no matter how busy or wild things get, I still feel a certain sense of grounding that I can latch onto. We egg each other on.

The McCaslin-Jackson simpatico is evident on “Outlaw,” an ebullient long form piece inspired by an Egberto Gismonti tune. McCaslin rehearsed it with Danilo Perez, who included other McCaslin tunes in the Motherland Project repertoire. “One thing we added was the counterpoint bassline in the last section of the melody, which I end up doubling,” McCaslin says. “But the challenge was coming up with the right feel. I’ve played it sometimes as a samba and sometimes with a more straight-eighth rock feel, but it never felt right. Gene and I worked on it, and he came up with what he calls an American samba.” McCaslin and Swana uncork melodic solos with a dollop of saudade.

Based on a synthetic scale from Messaien’s etude book, Modes For Limited Transposition, “Scrappy” is a quirky line with sardonic Monkish phrasing, intriguing intervals, and disjunctive hits. Goosed by the kinetic Jackson, McCaslin and Cardenas incorporate these shapes and dynamics on stimulating solos.

Composed in 2000, “Drift” claims Joe Henderson’s “Black Narcissus” as an antecedent. The A-section has a moody three-feel, while in the B-section Jackson’s rubato soundpainting details the melody and chords. Swana’s exquisite dark tone fits the melody like a custom-tailored suit, and McCaslin sustains the mood, his tenor voice drenched with soulful emotion.

“I was listening to Radiohead at the time I wrote the tune,” says McCaslin of Give and Go, also from 2000. The title refers to the basketball tactic of passing, cutting directly to the basket, and receiving a return pass for an easy shot, a process represented by the Cardenas-McCaslin interchange on the jagged intervals of the theme. “The melody came about when I was improvising on a synthetic scale, and I heard a harmony that to me sounded like a Radiohead-inspired piece. I was looking to hear some music that excites me and stimulates my sense of creativity. I landed on a Radiohead record. The tunes are interesting, the harmony is weird and different, it’s not the typical pop progression, plus all these other things happen in the arrangement through the production.” The Liberators’ Song is McCaslin’s response to Gabriel Garcia Marquez’ The General In His Labyrinth, a novel in which General Simon Bolivar is the chief protagonist. “It’s a melody and a mood,” says McCaslin of the brooding, Shorteresque refrain, his voice-like tone cosigned by Jackson’s gentle tom-toms and cymbal splashes.

McCaslin addresses clave structures with precision and finesse on “Two/Three,” composed during his stint with Danilo Perez. “I originally conceived of it as a son, but Gene wanted to play it as a rumba,” McCaslin says. “Danilo’s tunes contain a lot of counterpoint between the bass and the melody. Here I conceived of the bass line first, and to me the bass player’s melody is almost the more compelling one.” Colley demonstrates why on his introductory statement over Jackson’s sticked clave modulations. On their ensuing solos, Cardenas, McCaslin (on soprano) and Jackson handle the involved form with elegant panache. Written during McCaslin’s Lan Xang days, Doom Fuss features an angular two-bar bassline pattern and much open-ended McCaslin-Swana call-and-response.

Following his custom of concluding records with a hardcore jazz classic, McCaslin closes with Thelonious Monk’s “Eronel,” which he learned in Boston days with Ken Schaphorst’s big band. After McCaslin’s reharmonized, rhythmically displaced intro, inspired blowing commences over Jackson’s Frankie Dunlop-inspired swing-with-a-limp.
“I’ve played it at sessions for years,” says McCaslin, who knows how to use a tricky line to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Also, Steve co-authored a book of Monk tunes with Don Sickler, so I knew he could nail it and get inside the harmony.”

Jazz-obsessed from his formative years, McCaslin tells his stories with the lucid joie de vivre of a natural improviser. But he has never allowed revered traditions to be a ball and chain.

“I love playing tunes and stretching,” he says. “It’s part of my foundation; it feels like home. But I don’t usually play standards when I do gigs as a leader, because I want to get my original music out there. I’ve always had sense of eclecticism. At Berklee I played in a Rock band. I’ve done a lot of funk gigs in New York. I just enjoy playing music.”

For the 65th birthday anniversary of the virtuoso pianist Hilton Ruiz (May 29, 1952-June 6, 2006), here are the liner notes that I wrote for his final CD, Enchantment, a 2002 release, plus the interview that we conducted for those liner notes and a WKCR interview from 2000.

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Liner Notes For Enchantment:

It’s long-established that Hilton Ruiz, now 49 years old, is a virtuoso of the piano. Born to Puerto Rican parents and raised in midtown Manhattan, cater-corner from the old Madison Square Garden and two blocks from Musicians Union headquarters, Ruiz studied Puerto Rican folkloric music and European Classical repertoire in early childhood. By 18, the wunderkind was a professional jazzman, gigging with Clark Terry, Joe Newman, Frank Foster, and Jackie McLean, and making an impact on the Latin circuit with soñero Ismael Rivera and Mongo Santamaria. Through extensive tutorials with ancient-to-the-future pioneer Mary Lou Williams, a lengthy apprenticeship with Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and postgraduate work with George Coleman and Tito Puente, Ruiz learned how to imprint his personality on a surfeit of styles that encompass the jazz timeline; he’s equally comfortable laying down idiomatic two-handed stride and the blues at its most primal, morphing the piano into a drum on a nasty montuno, carving wicked elongated Bud Powell bebop lines with bell-like clarity, and soaring to the outer partials of abstraction.

Ruiz internalized from his mentors the old-school credo that technique is nothing more or less than a means to communicate and entertain; as he puts it, “Making people feel good, putting on a great show and still playing valid, beautiful music is what it’s all about.” On Enchantment — a seamless set comprising 12 cannily sequenced songs, each referencing some aspect of his professional experience — he does precisely that.

The connecting thread, Ruiz notes, is how the compositions “lend themselves to the ear; even though some might be complex or angular, basically, you can hum all the melodies on the record.” His bottom line: “Play the melodies clearly and make them pretty so people can recognize them and hear the song. The improvisation is the other part of it. But those beautiful melodies are what I wanted to emphasize.”

The pianist’s fierce two-chorus improvisation on “Seven Steps To Heaven,” the set-opener, gets the juices flowing, not least because of the mighty groove set by bass veteran Lisle Atkinson and young Venezuelan trapset whiz Marlon Simon. Then Ruiz plunges into the title track, recorded by long-time colleague Dave Valentin a few years back. The pretty refrain blends Brazilian and Caribbean elements; Ruiz improvises elegant bop-inflected lines with a Barry Harris connotation atop a smooth carpet of rhythm-timbre set forth by Simon and Panamanian percussionist Renato Thoms on cowbell. Note Ruiz’ keen comping over Atkinson’s brief solo before he launches into his final theme-and-variations, climaxing with an immaculately executed parallel octaves sequence.

The versatile tenor saxophonist Chico Freeman comes on board for “I’ll Call You Later,” a swinging blues with a bebop melody. After a horn-like Atkinson solo in the upper register, Freeman uncorks an intense solo with a resonant sound that channels the spirits of Chicago ancestors Sonny Stitt, Gene Ammons and Clifford Jordan; lest you forget his modernist affinities, he concludes his declamation with a series of crescendoing arpeggios. Not to be outdone, Ruiz follows with another logical, crisply executed bop statement that contains not one excess note.

Ruiz first played with Freeman as a sideman on the 1977 album, Beyond the Rain [Contemporary], while the tenorist was a member of the Elvin Jones Jazz Machine; in the mid-’80s, they worked in the initial iteration of The Leaders, with Don Cherry, Arthur Blythe, Cecil McBee and Don Moye. “Chico’s playing transcends the ordinary,” Ruiz says. “As a listener, he captivates me, takes me to a spiritual level. It’s always forward motion with him. He’s always searching and looking.”

Freeman sticks around for “Sweet Cherry Pie,” an irresistible line with a cha-cha/boogaloo groove that trombonist Juan Pablo Torres recorded in the mid-’90s. It’s the kind of feel Ruiz danced to — and played — on countless occasions in his teens.

The ’60s were a golden age for Latin music, and Ruiz recalls them fondly. “It was great,” he says. “I got a chance to see Barry Rogers, Jose Rodriguez and Lewis Kahn, and Johnny Rodriguez and Ray Barretto. The St. George Hotel in Brooklyn would have 14 bands going all night. You’d take the IRT to Clark Street, go up in the hotel, buy a ticket, and all of a sudden you’ve got TNT, the Lebron Brothers, the Meditation, Eddie Palmieri, Pete “El Conde” Rodriguez, and Johnny Pacheco; there was constant dancing and grooving and partying. I’d get back on the subway early in the morning.

“Everything was mixed up. I listened to WABC radio in my youth, which involved the Four Seasons, the Beatles, Little Stevie Wonder, the Beach Boys. I’d go to the Cheetah and hear the R&B bands, and I listened to hard rock from Jimi Hendrix, Canned Heat, Led Zeppelin, and Traffic. I listened to Classical Music. I listened to everything.

“When I was about 14 I’d hear Ed Williams’ radio program, ‘Maiden Voyage,’ on WLIB, and later on I listened to Ed Beach on WRVR. I heard John Coltrane, Pharaoh Sanders, and Rahsaan Roland Kirk. But when I heard the Bebop, I was captivated how it sounded and how it swung. I could really feel it. I’d go to Slugs and listen to Lee Morgan; I heard Elvin, Woody Shaw, McCoy Tyner and many other people live.

“I listened to a lot of great saxophone players when I did my early jazz studies, and through them — John Coltrane and Charlie Parker and Rahsaan — I was introduced to the great pianists. Hearing Al Haig, Tommy Flanagan, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, Andrew Hill, Cedar Walton, Walter Davis, Jr., Walter Bishop, Rahn Burton, and Bill Evans, I could relate to how the piano works with the horns; they showed me conceptually what and what not to do. When I started working, I had some working knowledge of how to accompany, and for the last thirty years I’ve been an accompanist in addition to having my own gigs as a leader.”

Ruiz goes on to discuss his piano influences: “Oscar Peterson’s trio records with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen had an impact on me like a horn — I could really focus on the piano. I heard Eddie Palmieri a lot at dances, but Herbie Hancock made the strongest impression for his beautiful harmonies and ideas. Then I heard McCoy on the record African Village, with that technique and soloing and fire. That told me there was someone else besides Herbie. I listened to Harold Mabern live, and studied a bit with him. Also Barry Harris, Chris Anderson and Roland Hanna. Cedar Walton, who I also studied with, was a good friend, and so was Hugh Lawson. I liked Bill Evans, especially for the way he comped behind bass players. He directed the music but at the same time left it wide-open, constantly setting up a carpet where you could blend, and that really impressed me.”

“I was around Mary Lou Williams from when I was 18 until she passed. She showed me a lot about what not to do. When I did something wrong, she’d say, ‘No, that’s not right, that’s corny, that’s not happening. Do it like this. Move over. Let me show you how it’s done.’ Then I’d watch her play, and saw the true feeling of a true original. She was effortless, but the things that came out were marvelous. The whole thing was about feeling.”

Keep these recollections in mind when listening to the four Ruiz solos that comprise the next section of Enchantment. The first pair are rare piano readings of “Gemini” and “Black Narcissus,” by saxophone giants Jimmy Heath and Joe Henderson, respectively.

“I’ve worked on and off with Jimmy Heath through the years, and I’ve always looked up to him,” Ruiz says. “He’s very knowledgeable; I could always go to him with questions and he’d straighten me out. I like the melody and the feeling of ‘Gemini.’ It also happens to be my sign. I’m playing it pretty much straight-up the way Jimmy wrote it.

“Though it’s in my resume that I worked with Joe Henderson, I only worked with him once, years and years ago, around 1970, as a sub. I went to his house in Brooklyn to rehearse for the gig. This tune was part of his repertoire then, and he played it for me on the piano. I learned exactly how too play it directly from the composer, so I know I got it right.”

Ruiz shows how thoroughly he’s assimilated the language of Thelonious Monk on a quintet version of “Shades of Thelonious,” an ingenious reharmonization of “You’ve Changed” that he recorded in trio format in 1991 [Doin’ It Right (RCA-Novus)]. “The melody gives my interpretation of Monk’s flavor,” says Ruiz, who grew up a 15-minute walk from Monk’s San Juan Hill apartment. “The flatted fifths and other devices identify with Monk and Ellington. They could make sense out of those intervals, creating beauty from them.

The second pair of solos are an elegant, blues-drenched reading of Billy Strayhorn’s “My Little Brown Book” (“it’s played by some of the more knowledgeable musicians, people who are into the finer points of Ellingtonia”) and “Silhouette,” an impressionistic on-the-spot improvisation with a Gershwinesque flavor.

Bassist Lisle Atkinson plays the melody on the first part of “Goodbye” with a plush arco sound before Ruiz enters on the bridge.

Ruiz cites Frank Sinatra’s iconic reading of the Gordon Jenkins torch song on Only The Lonely as his inspiration. “Guys tend to play tunes in their own style, with embellishments,” Ruiz notes. “Whenever I need to get the lyrics right, I’ll go to a Frank Sinatra album, because of his great articulation. He did it right! Here I put the bass up front to give it another kind of interpretation. In a well-integrated trio the bass can play the melody; if the melody allows, even the drums can do it. The drums have only four or five tuned pitches, but they get other sounds. I’ve always been conscious of leaving space for the drums to be part of the tonality. That comes from my background in Latin music, and also from playing extensively with people like Billy Higgins, Ed Blackwell, Roy Brooks, and other great drummers. When the drummer is conscious of the melody and chord changes, and uses the drums as another melodic instrument, then you can elicit beautiful overtones, which enhances the whole performance.”

That’s what drummers Simon and Thoms do on “Home Cookin,” a funky boogaloo that Ruiz recorded in 1987 [Somethin’ Grand (Novus)] and played during a cameo in the Woody Allen film Crimes and Misdemeanors. And he ends with Rahsaan Roland Kirk’s “The Business Ain’t Nothin’ But The Blues” (from Kirk’s flute album I Talk With The Spirits), showcasing a Chico Freeman solo that drips with soulful Chicago feeling, embodying Ruiz’ assertion that “the idea of the blues is to play something that sounds good to take the blues away — a taste of real life.”

“All the music I enjoyed was part of the Rahsaan experience,” Ruiz says. “He played the music of Fats Waller and James P. Johnson. Real down-home blues, as they’re called. The great composers of Classical music. Music from all over the world — Africa, the Orient, the Middle East. We had to play all these musical flavors every night. I had to research. Rahsaan would come to my apartment, we’d go to the record store, and he’d buy 15-20 records; each time he’d give me one or two, pointing out songs to listen to. Then I’d play those songs on the gig. I learned boogie-woogie and stride piano in the manner required to get it to swing in its own style — do it for real, make it sound right. That comes from within. If you love something and have the talent, then you get to it.”

Ruiz concludes: “I didn’t want to make this album complicated. I wanted it to be straightforward and honest. The listener can make their own decision.”

This listener’s verdict is A-plus.

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Hilton Ruiz (WKCR, 10-19-00):

TP: Was Dizzy Gillespie’s music very significant for you as a youngster in formulating your conception and sound?

RUIZ: Most definitely. I really heard Charlie Parker first, and Miles Davis. The tune I remember is “Back Home Blues.” I had a chance to be around Dizzy a little bit. He was a really funny, beautiful person. Magnanimous. He’s one of those certain artists who reaches the highest level of entertainment 24 hours a day. Make you laugh; taking care of business. I had the honor and opportunity to be on a video and CD called Rhythm Stick. We played together a couple of times, with Jon Faddis and Dizzy and me on the piano, just the three of us. For the few times I got a chance to be around him, I’m really happy to say that I knew the man, because people like this only come once in a lifetime. But thankfully, we have the music to listen to and to study.

TP: About how old were you, what year was it, when you started getting out there in the public world and playing? Mid-’60s, in your teens?

RUIZ: Yeah. I played with Ismael Rivera, a great Puerto Rican sonero, and I played with Ralph Robles for a while in a band called Ray Jay and the East Siders.

TP: What part of New York did you grow up in?

RUIZ: I grew up on 50th Street and 8th Avenue, right by the old Madison Square Garden. But I spent a lot of time on the Lower East Side and a lot of time uptown in Harlem. All over the place. I’ve been all over the city. I know this city very well.

TP: What were your first music lessons? Was it a family thing? How did it begin for you?

RUIZ: It was a family thing. My family really loved music, and they listened to records. My uncle took me to Professor Santiago Mesorana, who was also from Puerto Rico when I was 5 years old. He started me off on the solfeo, which is also called solfeggio, a method of sight-singing. Then after a couple of months went by, he let me get to the keyboard, and I studied folkloric Puerto Rican music. That lasted maybe about two years. After that, I went to Carnegie Hall, and I studied with George Armstrong, a very great pianist. That’s where I played my first recital, at Little Carnegie.

TP: Was that dealing with Puerto Rican folkloric music or Western Classical?

RUIZ: No, that was Franz Liszt and Mozart.

TP: So you weren’t just playing Puerto Rican folkloric music as a kid.

RUIZ: Well, I started with that. Then we did the Bach Inventions and the Handel and the Czerny and the Bartok.

TP: So you had a facility, obviously.

RUIZ: Well, at that time I had a facility, but it hadn’t come out yet. Because I had to learn the setup of the instrument and how to get over the keys. That was tedious. It was a very tedious time in my growing-up, because it was very difficult. You had to have in this place, play this soft, play this long, play this short, put the pedal down here, and then if you didn’t do it right, start again. The next week you’d start again. So you had to trudge through it just to get the next level. So I didn’t know anything about harmony or anything like that. I was just like reading and interpreting the Classical music. I did that for about four or five years.

TP: How old were you when the notion of improvising, when jazz started entering your picture?

RUIZ: When I was about 13-14 years old, I used to listen to a radio program, Ed Williams, “Maiden Voyage” [WLIB], and later on I listened to Ed Beach. I heard John Coltrane and Pharaoh Sanders, Rahsaan Roland Kirk…

TP: Who you later played with.

RUIZ: Yeah. Almost five years with Rahsaan. It was super-beautiful. One thing led to another, and here I am.

TP: Who were the jazz pianists who attracted you and who you tried to emulate? Was it that sort of process for you?

RUIZ: Yeah, it was. The first, strongest impression was Herbie Hancock. Of course, I had been dancing and going to see Eddie Palmieri a lot. I had been going to see Lee Morgan live quite a bit, and Woody Shaw and Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner, and of course, Rahsaan. So I got records like The Inflated Tear, and listened to Rahn Burton, who was an influence. But Herbie Hancock made a real deep impression on me because of the beauty of the ideas that were coming out. It seemed to be really just beautiful harmonies. Then I heard McCoy Tyner, and I said, “Wow!” I had never heard anything like that. I said, “there’s somebody else besides Herbie Hancock.” I heard McCoy Tyner on a record called African Village, and I heard that technique and that soloing and that fire. I was listening to Harold Mabern live, and I got a chance to study a little bit with Harold. Barry Harris. Chris Anderson. Roland Hanna. And my good friends were Cedar Walton, who I also studied with, and Hugh Lawson… I was with a lot of guys.

I heard Bill Evans and I liked that a lot, but the point where I heard Bill Evans was really with his trio. As I went back and started doing research, I heard some early things on Riverside with Philly Joe Jones and Paul Chambers, and it was like Bill Evans, the bebop pianist. I met him at the Vanguard, and he was a very-very nice cat. But what I liked about Bill Evans was the way that he could comp behind bass players. He was very sensitive to the more fragile elements of the music. He would lay out a constant carpet where you could just blend and do your thing without really being directed in any way. He would be directing, but at the same time he would leave it wide-open, and that really impressed me.

I was around Mary Lou Williams for quite a number of years, from when I was 18 years old until she passed, and she showed me a lot of things about what not to do. When you were doing it wrong, she’d just say, “No, that’s not good, that’s not right, that’s corny, that’s not happening. Do it like this. Move over. Let me show you how it’s done. Then I watched her play, and got a chance to see the real-real true feeling of a true original. She was effortless, but the things that were coming out were marvelous. The whole thing was about feeling. That was a great opportunity. I’ve had a lot of great people around me. The list goes on and on.

TP: I’d think for a curious, talented musician growing up in New York at that time, the opportunities for learning would have been endless.

RUIZ: Well, it wasn’t easy. I had a lot of fun while I was doing it, and I still do have a lot of fun — because I think that’s the whole idea, to have fun and let other people enjoy what you’re enjoying. But there were a lot of humbling moments, times when you had to get up there and didn’t know a song or maybe you weren’t ready to do a certain thing, and you were out there in front of everybody. I was lucky because I was given the encouragement to go out there and keep playing. If I was playing something that wasn’t cool, they would tell me to stroll, just cool out for a minute and listen, come in when it was appropriate. But it was always an atmosphere of encouragement. So I was very fortunate in that sense.

This band I have at Sweet Basil, we’re kickin’ it real hard in there. People are coming in, the place has been packed already a couple of nights. They’re dancing in the chairs and stuff and eating and drinking, and everybody’s smiling and having a good time.

[MUSIC: HR, “Shades of Thelonious,” “Round Midnight”]

TP: You mentioned a lot of pianists among your influence, but you didn’t mention Monk, who was close to Mary Lou Williams for many years.

RUIZ: Well, I never had the pleasure of meeting Thelonious Monk, but I did see him at a concert for one of George Wein’s festivals. He had been off for a little while, and he had come back on the scene, and I made I sure I got a chance to hear him — and it was fantastic. So the impression he made on me is in these songs, especially “Shades of Thelonious”… I tried to capture the feeling of how I feel about the flavors that Monk uses when he composes and when he plays. It’s a distinct flavor, and it doesn’t really make sense to try to analyze it too much, because it’s the sound that he produces… It’s so slick and yet it’s so correct at the same time. It’s a pleasure to play the compositions. That’s probably why I didn’t mention him. I can’t mention everybody at the same time, because there’s so many people. You have people like Carlos McKinney and Johnny O’Neal and Benny Green and Brad Mehldau. There are so many guys who have made an impression on me pianistically. Monty Alexander. Horace Parlan. But primarily it’s been Eddie Palmieri, Charlie Palmieri. Chick Corea, who is a genius. And anybody who can play. Anybody who can really play and make me want to go home and try it out. Because what I do is I hear something, and I go home and try it out and see if I can put it int my little tool chest, so when I go out to do my job, I can have more variations of different things I can do to try to get the job done..

TP: A contemporary of Monk’s was Tito Puente, who passed earlier this year and whom we heard playing mallets on “Round Midnight.” Hilton said at a certain point during his solo, “you’re never going to hear that again; not that way!

RUIZ: Because that’s the real way to play the vibes. Tito was a vibist in the sense that he played the vibes and got the full sound out of the instrument, not the approach that I would approach the vibes as a piano player. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, with guys playing like the piano on the vibes. But to get your own sound, a recognizable, beautiful sound, and to make it sound like bubbles… That calls for percussion, people who have studied the instrument and know to move around and get that particular sound.

Tito was so great as a person, so great as a musician. One of the greatest things about Tito Puente was that with all the things he had done — he had been there with Monk, he had been there with Charlie Parker, he had been there with John Coltrane, he had seen all of that live playing, back-to-back sets, all the guys respected him — he always was trying to keep everything real and keep the real flavor of what we call jazz music, and without losing the roots of his native Puerto Rico, and from New York and Spanish Harlem. The volumes and volumes and volumes of tunes, great dancing tunes, great arrangements, great vocalists, and that he would come out and get a band like these guys here, the Tito Puente Latin Jazz All-Stars. James Moody was in there for a while, Paquito d’Rivera, Mario Rivera, Dave Valentin, Charlie Sepulveda, Giovanni Hidalgo. He surrounded himself with only the very best musicians, and he knew what he wanted to do at all times. He was always prepared. He always had a bag of music with him. He was ready for any situation. But he allowed us to grow and flourish in our own way. He made a way for all of us to carry on, because all he wanted was for us to respect the music and keep playing the music. Anybody who ever saw him, or you just put on one of those records, and you can feel the flavor of the thing. It’s kicking. It’s hard. It’s coming hard. It’s really great. It’s a magnificent thing he’s left us.

Tito Puente and Rahsaan Roland Kirk, I must say, are the two individuals who really made me kind of look and say, “Entertainment, show business…”

TP: Is not incompatible with the art of music.

RUIZ: Right. Making people feel really good, and putting on a great show and still playing some valid, beautiful music — that’s what it’s all about.

TP: In the ’60s, you were playing with Ismail Rivera, in Latin Soul bands… There was a huge Latin movement in New York in the ’50s and ’60s, Latin bands playing all over. A lot of musicians paid their rent on gigs and dances with Latin bands.

RUIZ: Sure. It was great. I got a chance to see Barry Rogers and Jose Rodriguez and Lewis Kahn and Johnny Rodriguez and Ray Barretto. The St. George Hotel would have 14 bands going all night.

TP: The one in Brooklyn? Just take the 2, go up in the hotel…

RUIZ: You got it. You go in there, you can buy a ticket, and all of a sudden you’ve got the TNT, you got the Lebron(?) Brothers, you got the Meditations, you got Eddie Palmieri, you got Pete Aconda, Johnny Pacheco, there’s like constant dancing and constant grooving, constant partying. We’d all get back on the subway early in the morning, and go to school or whatever.

TP: Or not.

RUIZ: Well, I did. I went to school. I didn’t want to get up a lot or mornings. But I made it there. I didn’t even want to be there a lot of times.

TP: Where did you go to high school?

RUIZ: I went to Power Memorial. [Kareem was a senior when he got there] It’s not there any more. That was a tough school.

TP: So you to go Power Memorial, and you’re playing music the whole time and keeping up an academic course-load. It sounds like you grew up pretty young.

RUIZ: Well, academically… I’ve been around the world ten times. I’ve been almost everywhere by now, traveling constantly. I can thank the Creator for that. So I’ve been able to see things that in my education I saw in books, and actually touch things and be standing in the places of true history of this planet. So that’s basically my education, because when I got out of high school…

TP: You went right to work, didn’t you.

RUIZ: Yeah, I just went right to work. I started working with Clark Terry. That’s the first time I went on the road, was with the Clark Terry Quartet, with Major Holley on bass… No, it was Louis Smith that first time on bass, then Major Holley came in, and then Victor Sproles. Then with the big band, the quartet, the quintet and everything. Then in ’72, Jackie McLean took me to France, to a festival at Chateau Vallon, and that was really out of sight. Then Rahsaan took me out for a few times. I went out with George Coleman and with Tito. It’s been a great thing. I recommend everybody to really travel at least a little bit. Take a cruise, take a plane somewhere. Really get the flavor of other… But for people who haven’t extensively traveled that much, it’s really worth it to get out. Because you hear the music, you taste the food, you meet the people, you smell the air, you see the cars and vehicles, you see the architecture. You never know what you might run upon.

TP: As a kid and through your life, did jazz and Latin music seem like part of a big continuum to you? How was it alike? How was it different?

RUIZ: It was all mixed up. Because I listened to WABC radio in my early youth. That involved Four Seasons and the Beatles and Little Stevie Wonder, Beach Boys, like everything. That was the music that I listened too. I would listen to things like “A Summer Place,” which I still think is one of the most beautiful things that’s ever been written. Then I used to go to the Cheetah and I used to listen to the bands there — the first Cheetah, which was basically Rhythm-and-Blues, Rock-and-Roll. I listened to some Hard Rock from Jimi Hendrix, Canned Heat, Led Zeppelin, Traffic — a lot of that music. Classical Music. I listened to everything.

But when I started listening to Bebop music, ,I was captivated by the sound of it, and the way it made me feel. Because I’m coming from a Latin-Puerto Rican-New York, all the way in there background. When I heard the Bebop, I said, “Wow, this stuff really is swinging.” I could really feel it. Like I said before, I used to go to Slugs and listen to Lee Morgan. I heard a lot of the guys live, and a lot of the ladies, too.

The most important thing you can do is to go out and listen to everything. Listen to everything! And especially for young children… I as a parent make sure that my daughter has listened to everything. She likes rap music, she likes all kinds of stuff. But she heard the music. I allowed her to make that choice, and I exposed her to that. I didn’t try to hold her back from anything like that. I think that a lot of kids would like Bebop music and they would like a lot of the things that we enjoy as adults. But because it’s not given to them in the volume of other music that’s out there, constantly being pumped out, pumped out, the peer pressure and everything like that… I’m not saying that the Rap is not happening, because those guys really know what they’re doing, and they are masters of that style. But there’s a whole lot of other things that can incorporated into that, and a lot of times kids don’t really get a chance to hear bebop music and the jazz music. But that’s so very important that this music be exposed to everyone, so that everyone can make their own choice and their own decisions, say “I like this and I don’t like that.” I like Flamenco or I like Opera, I like Bebop and I like creative music. But if it feels good, I can’t knock it.

[MUSIC: HR-G. Coleman, “Strange”; HR-David Sanchez, “Sonny’s Mood”]

TP: I’ll repeat your comment about George Coleman, “he spells all the big words,” referring to his ability to make art out of polysyllabic harmonic language.

RUIZ: He cleaned that solo out. He got in all the corners of it. George Coleman, pound for pound… There are a lot of great saxophonists out there, but in terms of consistency, I don’t think I’ve ever played anyone who was more consistent than George Coleman. In that style. Because you have Jimmy Heath, who’s very consistent, James Moody, a lot of guys. But George has a certain polish, a certain flair that you can almost taste the music. I was listening to that solo, and I could almost see Amsterdam, the time we spent in Amsterdam, and in Paris and in London, and just the visual things of all our travels. We had so much fun. Billy Higgins was the drummer, and Herbie Lewis and Ray Drummond on two different tours. On one tour we did nine weeks in Europe, and we had fun all the way down the line. We never knew what we were going to play. Playing everything through all the keys, at different tempos. Billy Higgins is right there, knows just what to do and his volume was just perfect for a piano player, because he’s so intense but he keeps the dynamic level… I’m glad to see that George is doing good and he’s in good health. I’m looking in the future for people like that to get much more recognition for their artistic endeavors.

TP: Have you played much or at all with Craig Handy and Ryan Kisor before?

RUIZ: Well, I’ve never played with Ryan before. The first time was at rehearsal on opening night. But he came in and read the music and everything. He’s a very cool cat. We’re getting to know each other and he’s taking care of business. I’m very happy to have him there. I’ve never had the chance or enough work… I’ve been working almost constantly, thank God. I’ve been able to put my daughter through college and buy a home. But the bands are always different. I try to keep as many people together as I can. But since I can’t keep everybody on salary, it’s hard to maintain that one unit. The longest-lasting edition was probably the Andy Gonzalez-Steve Berrios-Giovanni Hidalgo rhythm section. We made a lot of records together. But these guys are great. Craig Handy is a great saxophonist, a great person. They come to play and they come to make the people feel good, and we don’t really have any attitude problems. Everyone gets a chance to write, everyone gets a chance to be featured. We’re out there making people feel good! That’s what we’re happy to do.

Renato is from Panama so he has that Latin flavor. He’s a very strong conguero. Then Marlon Simon. Every night I get up there, it’s good for me, because I’m used to playing at that level anyway. I’m used to pushing through the envelope into the next envelope, so to speak. I’ve never allowed anything to stop me — as long as, God willing, I can stay healthy — to just keep going for trying to make it better, and try to listen and be supportive, but just keep going for that music and try to make it better. It gets strenuous. At the level we play, it’s a very physical gig. We play ballads and we play a lot of pretty things. But I know people come out and they want to hear fire, and they want to hear something really to make them rock and feel really good. I have to look at the room, I have to see what kind of audience they are. If it seems like it’s a Count Basie type of audience, we have to play something for them. If you see an Ellingtonian… How can you tell if an audience is Ellingtonian or Basieites?

TP: You have an intuition after 35 years playing for people.

RUIZ: They’ve just got a look about them!

TP: What’s the difference between a Basieite audience and an Ellingtonian audience?

RUIZ: I would say that the Ellingtonian audience would be a sophisticated audience of people who really are digging the full classical picture, with the swing, with everything, with the spirituals… To me, that’s like the big picture. And then the Basie group of people are people who probably are into that and know about that, but it’s just straight swing, how hard can they swing you, how hard can they make you move, how good can you feel listening to an orchestra. I’ve heard the Basie band live. It’s just too much. Basie was more into constantly creating that swing for people to dance and to enjoy. Duke was doing that, but also recording different kinds… I haven’t heard as much music as you have. Probably very few people have heard as much music as you have. But we’re speaking hypothetical…

TP: Your sets are fluid from night to night. You might play anything on any given night, is what you’re saying.

RUIZ: Well, I have to look at the room. I have to see the age level. I might play the Flintstones.

TP: And you have to have a band that can handle that, and with these guys you do.

RUIZ: They have to handle all those kinds of things. Because the music that we call jazz is a whole lot of things. But basically, it’s to give somebody a good feeling that you know you’re contributing positive vibrations to your fellow neighbors. It’s an honest thing, where they really like it, or they may not like you, or maybe they’ll like you later… They don’t have to like you. But you’re making them feel good. So therefore, you’re accomplishing something, and you really can say that you’re doing something on this planet; you’re making people feel good.

TP: You were talking about your guiding imperative always being to push the envelope, push through into the next level, and that’s been a palpable part of what you do. You played in the ’70s and ’80s with Arthur Blythe, and Sam Rivers was part of your ensembles in the ’80s…

RUIZ: Marion Brown. I did a tour with Marion. Did a record in Paris called Back To Paris. Marion played “Body and Soul,” played all over “Body and Soul,” and he wrote some originals there. I made two albums with Marion Brown. I played a little bit with Archie Shepp. So many great musicians.

[HR-Sam, “Bluz”; HR (solo), “Soul Eyes”]

[-30-]

*_*_*_*_

Hilton Ruiz for Enchantment (7-30-01):
TP: Talk about selecting the arc of the CD, selecting the repertoire.

RUIZ: I just want it to be record that people can enjoy, and I want it to be accessible to listeners from all different walks of life. Not necessarily a specialized group of jazz listeners… If people want to use the record for just fun listening, that’s what I’m going for. The selections all have very pretty melodies. All I’m trying to do is get to the listeners so they can feel good and have it be accessible to a full range of musicians, from classical on.

TP: That said, you deal with a lot of different styles and approaches. I don’t think it’s so easy to pare down and make material that is as involved as some of these pieces sound as simple as it does.

RUIZ: Well, I think it’s the compositions themselves. They lend themselves to the ear. They’re pretty compositions, even though some of them might be a little complex or angular. But basically, you can hum all the melodies on the record. I didn’t want to make it complicated. I wanted to make it straightforward and honest as to what it is. I guess as the person listens to it, then they make their own decision.

TP: “Seven Steps To Heaven” must go back to Miles Davis. Your association?

RUIZ: I heard it when I was a teenager. The melody just stuck in my mind immediately. It’s very catchy. I tried to make the improvisation concise. I didn’t want to play a whole lot of choruses. I played two choruses and they took it out. It’s kind of an introduction to the album that gets you going and gets the juices flowing.

TP: How much do you pre-plan the arc of the arrangements? Do you carefully work out the whole structure beforehand? Is it more extemporaneous once you get in the studio? Talk about doing a record vis-a-vis a live performance.

RUIZ: It calls for more rehearsing and trying to put everything in a package that is concise and yet has the freedom to be expressive at the same time. Basically, when we get in the studio, I don’t have an idea of what kind of arrangement I want. But a lot of these songs, when they were written, were basically arranged at that time. So the only thing in terms of arranging would be the choice of instruments that you’re going to use in the performance, or to include an interlude here or a vamp there or a tag here. But going back to “Seven Steps To Heaven,” the arrangement is all laid out. It’s already there.

TP: There you play a Bud Powell, bebop style. You play in different styles in different tunes. Does that happen in the heat of the moment, or are you also thinking of your improvisational approach beforehand?

RUIZ: Not really. I practice every day and I try to work out different ways to enhance my improvisations. But it happens when it happens. That’s the nature of jazz. You really don’t know what’s going to happen in your solo. There are patterns and things that a lot of us use to the point across. But you really don’t know exactly what’s going to happen until you make that tape, then that’s what have to live with, or decide whether you want to try another one. But since it’s a group with quartet and a lot of percussion, it’s not overly arranged. I like to let the percussion be part of the harmonic structure because the drums have their own harmony, which adds overtones to the rest of the diatonic harmony that the keyboard and the regular 12-tone tuned instruments. So there’s a certain degree of space that has to be left there, so that the drums and conga and bongos will have an audible space in this particular quartet. Now, if I’m doing a big band arrangement, it’s a whole different story. That calls for putting the right horns in the right place and things like that. But basically we just have the one horn as a guest, who was Chico Freeman. I had the music written for him and he rehearsed it. Some of it he saw on the spot.

I like to leave a spontaneous element in recording. If you go in there and record something you’ve practiced a million times, and you know exactly how it’s going to go, that’s fine. But to me, that comes down under the heading of maybe… I wouldn’t put it in the category of being a jazz performance, because one of the main elements of jazz is the improvisation.

Basically, to break it all down, if you can play the melodies clearly and make them pretty so people can understand the melody and hear the song, then the improvisation is the other part of it. But the song is also very important that a person can recognize the melody of the song. And those beautiful melodies are what I wanted to emphasize.

TP: Is “Enchantment” your composition?

RUIZ: It’s an original, about five years old. It was recorded on an album called Primitive Passions by Dave Valentin, and it was featured on that album. I’ve never recorded it on any of my albums. It’s a very pretty song. That’s why we chose it to be the title. It’s kind of a Latin-Bossa Nova type thing, a cross between Brazilian and Caribbean flavors. It has the flavor of East Coast Latin Jazz and it also… This one wasn’t necessarily like a Cha-Cha or a Mambo, which is pretty strictly Caribbean. It has no parameters. It has an element of Brazilian music, of South America and Caribbean music.

“I’ll Call You Later” is a straight-up blues. It’s pretty straightforward. We play the melody, which is a bebop-flavored melody. Chico takes a great solo. It’s one of those tracks you listen to for enjoyment, just bounce. Chico got a very good sound here.

TP: All the tunes were just right for him. You’re on records of his going back to the ’70s?

RUIZ: I was on one of his first albums, called Beyond the Rain. Chico used to come listen to Rahsaan Roland Kirk. The last couple of years I was playing with Rahsaan, Chico got the gig with Elvin Jones, who had one of the groups I’d go listen to a lot since I was teenager. I always enjoyed listening to the Elvin Jones groups. Chico was in this particular group with Pat LaBarbera, and he had a certain spiritual quality about his playing that transcended the ordinary… As a listener, I was captivated, and he took me to a listening level that was spiritual. That’s how I felt. In a positive sense.

There was a band called the Leaders around ’84, in which I was the original pianist. Don Cherry was the original trumpeter on the first tour.

TP: You’ve played in so many situations. It’s hard to think of a musical environment you haven’t covered — from New York piano function things, which go from Latin Jazz, Boogaloo, Bebop, Blues, Avant-Garde. And you touch on everything in this record. It all seems very comfortable to you. Anything to say about the panorama of styles and approaches that you seem able to access very naturally.

RUIZ: I listened to a lot of records. I love the music very much, and the music was a really big part of my life in terms of enjoyment, and listening and buying records. I really got a good groove just putting on records and listening to different artists — Mongo Santamaria, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Dexter Gordon, Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins. They played so good that to me it was an enjoyable thing. It was like a daily thing. I’d get up in the morning and I’d want to go buy a new record or try something out, play the piano along with the records. Then I started getting gigs with great musicians; a lot of them were on the records I had at home. All of a sudden, I found myself in the bands of these people who I used to listen to on record. Since I had the love for it, and I did a lot of research, I learned how to play the right voicings and how to be an accompanist. I was so proud and so happy to be there… It wasn’t about money or anything like that. It was about just being able to be up there and play that music, and to get the recognition that I was at a level where I was able to play with these great musicians. So day by day, the days added up and months and years; thirty years later I look back, and I’m on over a hundred albums. [May 29, 1952]

TP: You started gigging in ’70 or so? Or before that, in high school?

RUIZ: I started gigging in the late ’60s. The first gigs were with Joe Newman from the Basie band, Frank Foster, Clark Terry. The first time I went on the road was with Clark Terry. I was 18 years old. Then Jackie McLean was my first European tour. I was 20 then. Then I went with Rahsaan Roland Kirk for almost five years.

TP: Rahsaan had a huge impact on the way you think about music.

RUIZ: Definitely. Because all the different things that I enjoyed were part of his program, part of the show, part of the experience. He played music of Fats Waller and James P. Johnson. Real down-home blues, as they’re called. He was into the Classical music. He was into the Great composers. Music from all over the world — from the Orient, from Africa, from the Middle East. Every night we had to play all these different types of musical flavors. So I had to do more research. I used to go to the record store. He used to come to my apartment in New York, and we would go to the record store, and he would buy 15-20 records, and he would buy me one or two records every time. He’d say, “Hey, you need this one, and take this one, and listen to this song and listen to this song.” Next thing you know, I would either be playing those songs on the gig or I was able to play in the style that was required to get it to swing in its own style. In other words I had to learn how to play some boogie-woogie and stride piano and things like that.

TP: And make it breathe. Be idiomatic..

RUIZ: Yeah, and do it for real. Make it sound right. But that comes from within. If you love something a lot and you have the talent, then you get to it.

TP: “Sweet Cherry Pie” is a beautiful groove tune.

RUIZ: I wrote it about seven years ago. It became a hit on an album by the trombonist J.P. Torres. That tune kind of speaks for itself. You can dance to it, you can listen to it, you can drive your car to it, ride a bicycle, jog, whatever. It’s steady motion; it keeps moving and grooving.

TP: It seems like it would be hard for someone under 35 to write that. You don’t hear a lot of younger people dancing to it any more…

RUIZ: You should go to the Salsa clubs. You’ll find that beat danced to all the time. It’s basically a Cha-Cha.

TP: Are you still playing those clubs?

RUIZ: Yes, occasionally. I do a special here, a special there. I’m guest soloist with a band or a singer. Actually at this point, I’m getting much more to my own research again. I’m going back to sheet music and repertoire, and looking at music I’ve seen before for a second time to see if I’ve missed anything, just to take another reevaluation of what music is after playing it for thirty years. Now that I’ve gotten all this experience, reevaluating from how I looked at it when I didn’t know what a chord was, when I didn’t know what improvisation was, didn’t know what a vamp was, didn’t know what changes were. Music is so vast and so great that you need to always keep going forward but always research the past, too. You can find things that are very useful and devices that maybe aren’t used any more that are really hip! That’s the way I progress, by going back to the…

TP: How long have you been going back to it?

RUIZ: Well, I’ve studied the Schillinger System, I studied the George Russell system, and I’m classically trained. So I’ve always had that thing in terms of musical theory. But being trained as a classical pianist, I was basically taking pieces that took me three or four months to learn, and I learned them bar-by-bar, note-by-note, hands separated and put the hands together on the keyboard. That’s how I learned. But now that I’ve been into advanced harmony… I’ve always been doing it, but now I do it differently, because I have more vocabulary. I want to go back and take a look at things again, knowing… As an example: Given a piece of sheet music thirty years ago, I’d have looked at it and played it by the notes. But I wouldn’t necessarily know that there was a set of chord changes under it that could be used for improvisation. I didn’t know the possibilities that much. I would play the song and that was it. If I had an arrangement I had to play with a band, I would play what was called for on the arrangement, and that was it. Now I go back and take that same piece of music, and I can say, “Oh, look what he used here; he used a G7-flat IX, and look at this, and, oh, this is something we used…” So I can recognize things better now because of the experience and because of everything… You learn more about the terminology and the theoretical part. I’m involved in teaching. So when I do a clinic or a seminar or something like that, you have to find different ways to reach the student. The more you research things and the more you learn different ways to communicate, the better off you are.

“Gemini” is by Jimmy Heath. I played with him a couple of times. I went on a nice European tour with a band called New York All-Stars that Jimmy led, with Jimmy and Percy Heath, Jimmy Owens, Slide Hampton and Jimmy Cobb. We played at Nice, the Hague and Northsea Jazz Festival. And on and off throughout the years, I’ve played different gigs — club dates and things like that. I never was part of the Heath Brothers Band, because Stanley Cowell is the resident pianist there. Jimmy Heath is one of the guys I looked up to and who I could go to with questions and would straighten me out. Jimmy Heath is very knowledgeable, in addition to being a great player. I like the melody and the feeling. It also happens to be my sign. I guess if something appeals to me, I might play it differently. When you’re improvising and thinking about different things, that’s where the story comes out — how you’re feeling. He did the tune with the Cannonball Adderley Sextet and done big band arrangements of it. I’m playing it pretty much straight-up the way that he wrote it.

TP: “Black Narcissus” solo is an interesting choice.

RUIZ: Years and years ago, around 1970, I had a big with Joe Henderson. I only worked with Joe once, but it’s in a lot of places as part of my resume that I worked with him. Which I did, but it was just one gig. There was a period where I was a substitute pianist for a lot of great piano players like Stanley Cowell and Harold Mabern, so many great pianists who sometimes had two or three gigs at the same time and needed somebody to come in there. I was recommended to Joe Henderson, and I went to his house in Brooklyn to rehearse for the gig. We sat at the piano, and he played this tune for me and was showing me exactly how it goes and how it should be played. This was one of the tunes he was going to play on the gig; it was part of his repertoire at that time. He was playing it a lot at the time. I learned it directly from the composer, so I know I got it right. There are certain little parts that have to be played as he wrote them in order for it to be, if you will, authentic.

TP: You recorded “Shades of Thelonious” a few years ago on one of your RCA records.

RUIZ: Doin’ it Right, I think. I did a trio version. I just added the horn and basically played it straight up just like it was. That’s another one of those tunes that just goes straight down. But the melody itself gives my interpretation of a part of the Thelonious Monk flavor, using those flatted fifths and devices like that, that kind of identify with Monk and Ellington, guys who could use those intervals and yet make sense, make something very pretty out of it.

I heard Monk once at Avery Fisher Hall during the festival, when he played a piano solo. Hearing people like him or Miles Davis just once is like watching a great World Series game. If you were THERE, it’s something you can say to your kids!

TP: Growing up in New York, and particularly growing up where you did in Manhattan, put you in a position that not too many young musicians would have in being able to directly experience the music played by the greatest masters of the music. Or that music being in the air. Even Jazzmobile and things like that. You would have soaked up this sensibility. I don’t know too many people who project more of a New York attitude than you.

RUIZ: I grew up in Midtown Manhattan, right by the old Madison Square Garden. I was one block from Broadway, and the Musicians Union was two blocks down the street. I saw the guys going back and forth to the union, all the entertainers, and the vibe and the people and all this stuff that in general was going on right outside, looking out the window. There was always something going on.

I was lucky, because we grew up in the age of television. People say that television isn’t good for people, but it’s only the way you use it. For me, television was a great thing, because I got to see Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, and people like this on TV. That was part of what influenced me, too. I was 7-8-9-10 years old, and I would see these great performers through the medium of television. Now that we have the Internet, it’s showing its value again; that cathode ray tube monitor is one of the greatest communication devices that can be used. If it’s used correctly, it’s marvelous, because you can see and hear.

TP: On the radio you asked me if I could guess the changes of “Shades of Thelonious,” and I couldn’t get it.

RUIZ: “Shades of Thelonious” is basically “You’ve Changed.” Not exactly, but you can play “You’ve Changed” to it, because the bridge goes to the same place that “You’ve Changed” goes to — to the fourth of the chord.

TP: I can say it references “You’ve Changed.”

RUIZ: It’s close enough that it won’t be arguable. Anybody who knows anything about “You’ve Changed” knows that if you play the melody of “You’ve Changed” on top of the chords as that tune is going by, you’ll pretty much have the melody. Although there are places where I use some alternate chords that might clash with the melody. But that happens all the time. That’s the nature of improvisation. You might put a slick chord in there, and it might not be directly associated with the melody note, but as you pass into the next chord it moves into the original tonality, so it’s okay.

TP: Then you do “My Little Brown Book” by Billy Strayhorn. Did you listen to a lot of Ellington when you were younger?

RUIZ: Yes. That’s one of the first things I heard. I heard “Diminuendo and Crescendo In Blue” with that long solo by Paul Gonsalves, then I heard Charlie, Parker, and that was it for saxophones. I said, “Wow, I really like that.”

TP: Did saxophones influence the way you think as a pianist?

RUIZ: Yes. Because I was listening to saxophone players when I did my early jazz studies. I was into saxophone players. I have a collection of great saxophone players, and through those saxophone players I was introduced to the great pianists. One of the first records I had that was just piano, that really had the impact on me like a horn was those Oscar Peterson Trio records with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen. Then I could really focus on the piano. But through listening to John Coltrane and Charlie Parker, I got to hear Al Haig and Tommy Flanagan and McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock, Andrew Hill, Cedar Walton, Walter Davis, Jr., Walter Bishop, Bill Evans. These great pianists all appeared on these albums. That’s how I had a chance to relate to how the piano works with the horns. So when I started working, I had somewhat of a working knowledge of how to be an accompanist. I’ve always been able to be an accompanist for the last thirty years, in addition to having my own gigs as a leader. Because I’ve led bands for that long, too. but listening to these piano players really showed me conceptually what to do and what not to do. What not to do is just as important as what you do.

TP: That being said, you take “My Little Brown Book” as a solo.

RUIZ: In the sequencing we tried different combinations. We put all the tunes in different order and listened to it, and changed the order and listened to it again, and changed the order and listened to it again, and changed it again and listened again. The way I put it together is tonally logical. In other words, I put the two solo pieces together that kind of blended harmonically one into the other, so as you listen to the end of a track, you’re left with a certain feeling, then what comes next to it has to do with what you heard before.

TP: Each tune goes into the other goes into the other. It’s a smooth experience.

RUIZ: Exactly. So by putting two solo pieces together, and then another two… I didn’t want to put three or four together. Because there’s people who like the solos, but now they’re ready to hear some drums! I wanted everything to be just long enough that it would be satisfying, and then give you a little bit more satisfaction, and then go to the next take.

TP: Is “My Little Brown Book” a song that’s been part of your repertoire for a while?

RUIZ: Yes, I’ve played it for a while. I’ve played it with different bands. It’s played by some of the more knowledgeable musicians, people who are into the finer points of Ellingtonia. But it’s such a beautiful melody… I play tunes because I like them. I also play them because I’m required to on certain projects. Sometimes I’m exposed to tunes that I like more than others. So I tend to play the things that I enjoy the most, because that enjoyment comes out and is reflected into the audience. People can notice I’m enjoying it, and it seems to make them enjoy it more. I’ve always loved those beautiful melodies. I’ve listened to all kinds of advanced music and I’ve listened to today’s music. I watch the latest things that are coming out, and I watch what’s happening on the music channels. I keep abreast of everything. But a beautiful melody is everlasting.

TP: How about “Silhouette”?

RUIZ: “Silhouette” was done on the spot. That’s totally improvised. That’s something that came in my head and I composed it right there, on the spot, that take and that was it. It’s imagining a silhouette. You see children playing on a hill, jumping rope or whatever, and you see the sun behind it, and you get the beautiful silhouette of what’s going on against that orange sky.

TP: It’s an impressionistic improvisation. “Goodbye” you made a feature for Lisle Atkinson’s arco work.

RUIZ: Lisle is such a great virtuoso, I wanted to have a tune that would feature his artistry. So I listened to the tune and thought about letting the bass play the melody in the first part, and then I’d come in on the bridge. I listened to a version by Frank Sinatra on an album called Only The Lonely. I don’t remember the first time I heard the tune, but one of the times I was playing at a place called Defemio’s, and my friend Hugh Lawson came. It was after the gig, and the musicians were just hanging out, sitting up in the club, and Hugh went up to the piano and started playing the song. I fell in love with it right away. Then I heard it done by other artists. But the Frank Sinatra version was important because I was able to listen to the lyric. Guys tend to play tunes in their own style that they embellish and so on. Whenever I do something where I need to get the lyrics right, I’ll go to a Frank Sinatra album, because he had a great articulation with lyrics. He did it right! He’s so enjoyable to listen to, plus I love Frank Sinatra’s voice. Then I put the bass up front to give it another kind of interpretation.

A lot of times when you hear the trio, you’re hearing the piano primarily, but in a well-integrated trio the bass can play the melody sometimes, and even the drums can play the melodies if they lend themselves to the drums. The drums have only four or five tuned pitches, but they can get other kinds of. sounds. I’ve always been conscious of the drums and leaving space for the drums to be part of the tonality.

TP: Does that come from your background in Latin music?

RUIZ: Well, yeah. But also by playing a lot with people like Billy Higgins, and also Ed Blackwell, Roy Brooks, and all these great drummers. When they’re conscious of the tonalities, it can make it sound that much better. When you have a drummer who is conscious of the melody and conscious of chord changes, and plays accordingly, and uses the drums as another melodic instrument, as well as percussion, just like I use the piano as a melodic instrument with percussion, then you can get these beautiful overtones to happen. It can really enhance the whole performance with the right drummer who’s playing the right stuff.

TP: On this date with Marlon Simon on traps, how much leeway did you give him? Did you sketch out the tempos and beats you wanted him to play?

RUIZ: Yes. Any hits that had to be made or any figures that had to be played by everybody together, breaks and so on, I would write out for him. Otherwise, play time. Play your stuff. Play what you play. If we all have to come in somewhere, then I would write it out and make it easier for him. Because you can do them by ear, too. Simple arrangements, basically if the guy is on top of his game, he can pick it up right away.

TP: Have you been playing with Marlon for a while?

RUIZ: Four or five years now. Marlon has a couple of CDs out under his own name. He’s very knowledgeable about Latin rhythms, but he’s been around people like Mickey Roker, and he’s done the research. He has a natural swing. Of course, he’s not going to sound the same as a person who has grown up in the United States, because that has something to do with the way you play. But since I am basically dealing with the two idioms, the African and Latin American rhythms, they all come from the same place anyway; they’re all African rhythms to begin with, but went in different directions. He takes care of the business and he’s reliable. He’s growing. The more he plays, the better he gets. I think it’s important, in a sense, to try to have the same personnel — if it’s working — for as long as you can, because that’s where things really start grooving, when people get to know each other musically, and what we can do and things like that. It’s hard when you’ve got to change the drummer or bass player every six months or so. If you get somebody who’s really good it’s going to be okay, but that collaboration of the same people working together on the same thing for a while I think really is what catapults the music forward. If you can have a working band, the same people for a while… When you get to work, you know the repertoire, you know the repertoire, you know what you’re going to play, you know how everybody else plays basically, and you know the breaks and everything else, so now you can focus on creating something and trying to come up with something fresh.

TP: Is that the case with this group?

RUIZ: Yes. Well, Chico is always like that. It’s always forward motion with him. He’s always searching and looking. He’s a leader. Lisle Atkinson is one of those really swinging bass players. He’s played with just about everybody, with all the great singers and saxophone players, and he’s also played with symphonies, and he has a bass choir. He’s a virtuoso. What it is that you want, he can go after it.

TP: How about Renato Thoms? He’s from Panama.

RUIZ: He’s from Panama, and he has played with Eddie Palmieri. He’s on a few records now with notable artists. He came up one night to play as a replacement for Richie Flores, who got busy. He gave me his card and said, “I’ve got your records and I know some of your music.” He sounded real good when he sat in with us. So opportunity arose, and I gave him a call and he came in and he’s been there ever since. I don’t change anything, as long as everything is happening and it’s okay. If a guy doesn’t give me exactly what I want right away, I won’t make a change that fast, because I’ll see if an adjustment can be made. I went through the same thing. I went into places where everybody was more advanced than I was or had more experience, so I’m tolerant of those things. But if a guy really comes to play and it sounds good and the people enjoy it, that’s mainly what I’m concerned with. Little idiosyncracies and things like that will happen. But it all works out if we have time to play together long enough.

“Home Cooking” is one of my hits, if you want to call it that. It was on my first RCA-Novus record, Something Grand. That tune wound up in a movie when I did a cameo with the band in Woody Allen’s Crimes and Misdemeanor. It’s a popular tune. Every time I play it, the audience really digs it. So it became a mainstay in the program.

“The Business Ain’t Nothin’ But The Blues” is by Rahsaan Roland Kirk, from his flute album, I Talk With The Spirits. I wanted to end it with a blues. But it’s a happy blues. The idea of the blues is to play something happy that sounds good to take the blues away. Chico got some nice Chicago blues in there. So we just close out with the blues, but a happy blues, a taste of real life.

TP: Let’s talk about the here-and-now. Talk about your last six month and how you project the next six months.

RUIZ: The highlights of the last six months: I was a judge for the All-American Jazz Piano competition. I got to hear a lot of young players. that was very nice, very exciting. I went to Miami and the JVC Festival in Miami, out there on the beach in South Beach, Miami. Then I went to Brazil, and played a concert at the Festival Internationale in Londrina. I spent about five days there, and played two concerts. After I came back I played Saratoga, JVC, and I’m going to be up at Newport in August and at the Detroit Jazz Festival.

TP: At this stage of your career… You’ve been visible and well-known on the jazz landscape for 25 years. Are you equally well-received around the world? Do Latin audiences like you for certain things and other audiences for other things? Do you separate the two components of your personality or are they always converging and coming together?

RUIZ: They’re always converging and coming together. I’ve been blessed that the sound that comes out when I play the piano is really what people like. They like to watch me play, they like to listen to what I’m playing. I get the same response anywhere I go. I can be truthful about this. The audiences really enjoy it. They ask for encores…

TP: You communicate.

RUIZ: It doesn’t make any difference in the age group or the ethnic group.

TP: Well, you were growing up in two cultures, in Puerto Rican culture and the intense mixture of New York. How did growing up in New York affect your approach to music?

RUIZ: The beginning was in Carnegie Hall, studying with George Armstrong. But before that I had studied Puerto Rican folkloric piano music with Santiago Messorana. Then when I studied with Mr. Armstrong, that was Bartok and Bach and Haydn and Mozart. So my background, I’m playing in church for different ceremonies and I’m playing in the assembly room for the school. they did Oklahoma when I was 9 years old, and I played the piano for that. Then there singers who somehow heard that I could play piano, and I wound up making a couple of doowop records. Very simple but they wanted me to do it. I guess it was about the sound. It sounded good. People basically said, “this guy sounds good; I want this guy.” Some people who do certain things musically may not have the expertise in certain instrumental areas, so they rely only on the sound of the instrumentalist. “Oh, that guy is playing what I need. I don’t know what it is, but that’s what I want.” So I was always lucky that people liked what I play and they would call me up and give me work. I’ve been very fortunate and blessed that I’ve been able to work constantly. I’ve had two or three months off, but it never more than that. I was always right back to work again.

TP: You seem to have figured out how to be pragmatic and inspired at the same time.

RUIZ: I try to be realistic about it. The more things that I have to do, the more I realize that I have to do more work at home to be prepared, even now with the new technology. I’ve got my computer and my keyboard and my music-writing software, and reading manuals and things like that. It’s not affecting my performance, because I play the piano every day. I’ll take a tune every day and play it through all the keys. So I make sure that I’m prepared. I may know a song, but the singer might sing it in a different key. I don’t want to be on the spot and be scuffling. Playing it through all the keys might take half-an-hour or so to do it, but it’s a goal that I’ve set for myself. I used to practice tunes just in one key, but it’s been a while now that if I play a tune, I want to play it in all the keys. I’m doing my writing now on the computer. I just changed over from pencil and paper to now I can put my scores in the computer, and I can change things and print them out.

So technologically, I’ve moved up into the 21st century. But I still have feeling and flavor. I’ve just gotten into this in the last ten years, where musicians like Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea and Joe Sample and George Duke and Joe Zawinul were doing these things very long ago. But for at least twenty years I didn’t play anything but acoustic piano. If I played an electric keyboard, it’s because there was no piano in the club. But now, I’m keeping myself up with the new technology in case I have to do something, like a movie score or if I have to do something on Broadway or have to do something that requires me to use this equipment. But I think it’s good that I spent all those years on the acoustic piano. And I won’t make the mistake of going to keyboards and leaving the acoustic piano, because then when you go back to play a gig on the acoustic piano, you find that you might not have the same edge you had when you were playing it every day. I’ve seen that happen to musicians. They were really burning, then they went to the electric keyboards, and when they went back it wasn’t quite as fiery . I think that has to do with just playing on wood without a speaker, when you have to produce the note. That physical thing, that energy is coming from the human body, and that’s all you’ve got. There’s no electricity and no nothing. But I’ve got my keyboard setup and I’m computer-literate now, so I’ve moved up into the 21st century.

Tito Puente was one of the greatest experiences I had musically. I played on about five albums, and I was able to arrange. He showed me a lot of stuff, how to open up my scope as far as arranging is concerned, and he also brought me back to my roots in playing the Latin music. We were very close and became very good friends . He really liked what I was doing and gave me the opportunity to expand. I owe him a lot, and I’m happy that I had a chance to be around such a great person. Hopefully, I’m going to keep growing and playing better and doing my thing.

The magnificent pianist Denny Zeitlin turns 76 today. I first had an opportunity to encounter him whenwas asked to write the liner notes for his 2000 release (1997 recording) titled As Long As There’s Music, a trio date with Buster Williams and Carl Allen. Five years later, he agreed to sit with me for a DownBeatBlindfold Test. I’m posting Blindfold Test first, then the liner note, then our complete interview, in which Dr. Zeitlin offered a lot of interesting information about the Chicago scene in the ’50s, among other things.

Immediately when that track starts, I get the feeling I’m in the hands of a really good bebop player. Really sinuous lines, great time feel, the group is very much together. Then it goes into a very interesting statement of the head. I’m trying to remember the name of that standard. Is it “The More I See You”? Really a very charming treatment of that. Then some very good, solid blowing with single lines, right hand lines that are always crackling and popping along, and the rhythm section is very much together. This pianist, at least on this cut, is using his left hand primarily as a comping instrument, and some very interesting ostinato figures begin to emerge towards the end of the piano solo, which get repeated at the very end, and it sort of transmutes into an Afro-Cuban vamp at the end, which is a very nice way to end this tune, with a kind of surprise chord at the end. Overall, it was really nice to listen this really crackling trio. It seems to me this pianist is somebody who has listened a lot to Bud Powell, and is probably in the next generation. This could be somebody like Kenny Barron or someone else of that ilk. I liked it a lot. 4 stars. [AFTER] I don’t know these cats, but they sound very good. Very solid. Very much out of that tradition.

That was the old standard, “Someone To Watch Over Me.” It begins with a quite dramatic rubato introduction. The pianist obviously has a very nice touch. He chooses to play this piece with a minimum amount of reharmonization, at least at the beginning of the cut, moves into a stride-like treatment, sort of more old style treatment of this tune, with bass and drums staying very much in the background but certainly supportive, and several choruses of working with the changes of the tune. Overall, there’s an elegant, relaxed feel about it. I enjoyed the nice, Tatumesque series of changes coming out of the final bridge before the last statement of the melody. I could tell as the piece was developing, particularly the improvisation, that this was a pianist who was holding himself back a little bit, which makes me think about the context of a recording or perhaps some restrictions placed by the record label. I would give it 3½ stars. I’ll probably be embarrassed to find out who it is, but I don’t recognize the player. You don’t know sometimes how much a producer, for instance, really gets into a recording session, or how an overall thematic approach to an album concept does. What I remind myself, and I wish listeners would keep in mind is that when they hear a cut from an artist’s CD, they’re getting a snapshot of what that artist was thinking, feeling and doing at that time. It’s not necessarily a statement about who he or she is musically in some global way at all. It’s merely a snapshot. [AFTER] Well, I’ve always enjoyed Eddie’s playing very much, and I’ll give myself credit for recognizing the touch. That’s something I’ve always been most drawn to in Eddie’s playing, is the touch. [Any recollections of him from Chicago days?] Yes. Eddie was one of the players who was established on the scene when I first started to play back in the ‘50s. He was very encouraging to me and opened some doors in introducing me to people, and has always been a fan of my playing, and I’ve always really admired his playing very much. He’s wonderful behind singers, too. A marvelous accompanist.

Wow, I really loved that cut. It was quite a journey. A wonderful piano player with great command of the instrument, and time and shapes. I loved the tune and the arrangement and the overall feel of this trio. You get the sense that this is a trio that’s worked together a lot. Very integrated and very interactive, and I love the different time signatures and their way of working with it. The solo consistently built and was intriguing and swinging throughout. Initially, I felt quite confident it was Brad Mehldau, and then towards the end some of the developments and figures were things I’ve never heard Brad do. Which doesn’t mean that he doesn’t do them. Just the cuts I heard didn’t have some of those things, and the recorded bass sound was a little different to the way his trio usually sounds. But I thought this was a terrific cut. 5 stars. My best guess would be Brad Mehldau, but I have a hunch it’s somebody who’s listened to Brad a lot, maybe some younger cat or someone contemporaneous with him. [AFTER] I’ve heard his name, and I know he’s done an album for Blue Note. People are talking about it. I have not heard him play. Terrific, I think.

That’s a very atmospheric mood piece, with a very unusual use of the sustain pedal, creating clouds and then abrupt disappearance of them, and new sounds appearing. It was almost entirely in one mode, which certainly sustains the atmospheric mood, punctuated by unusual use of dynamics with adjacent notes sometimes quite different in intensity, and occasionally punctuated by this little three-note motif, and then at the very end finally shifting the mode into a minor ending. Interesting atmosphere. 3 stars. I have no idea who it is. It’s someone seemingly coming out of a rubato classical tradition. [Any sense of it coming out of someone’s sustained body of work over the years? An older player? A younger player?] I would say that this is an older player. This does not strike me as a younger player’s work. It sounds to me like somebody who is steeped in the classical tradition, certainly has an understanding of how modes and atmospheres work, and… I don’t know much more to say about that. [AFTER] I always enjoyed Andrew very much. He’s one of the players who was playing actively at the time I started playing in Chicago. He always had a very original, unusual concept. Now knowing that it’s Andrew, and I could rewind the tape in my head and understand how it would be him. But I’ve never heard him play a piece like that. I’ve always heard him play much more angular kinds of things, either with a trio or with larger groups. But he’s certainly one of the original players, a real force in the music.

That’s one of my favorite tunes on this planet. I seem to never get tired of playing it or hearing it. This was a very relaxed, languid reading of this piece with a pianist whom I certainly don’t recognize off the bat, accompanied by I believe Charlie Haden. If I’m correct about Charlie, I know he also loves “Body and Soul.” I think he even did a project once with a whole bunch of piano players or maybe other instrumentalists playing “Body and Soul.” I never heard the project, but he was always talking about doing it, and I’ll bet this well could be a cut from that project. I don’t recognize the pianist. I’d say it’s a pianist who was probably actively playing back in the ‘50s. It was very relaxed, and I enjoyed it. Clearly, they just got together and just played it. It was like they jammed on this tune, and it had a very relaxed feel. 4 stars. [AFTER] Is that right? Wow. It didn’t sound like Chris. Knowing now that it was Chris, I’d say a little bit of the halting aspect to the right hand lines reminds me of some of the searching way that Chris would go at it. But what doesn’t tip me off to Chris on this particular cut is that he usually had such unusual harmonic progressions and voicings that he would bring to a tune. This piece doesn’t strike me as what’s the hallmark of Chris Anderson’s really quite innovative approach to jazz voicing. [What was the nature of his influence on you, or someone like Herbie Hancock, people who came under his spell during the late ‘50s in Chicago?] He was a legend in Chicago. Bobby Cranshaw first told me that I had to hear this cat play. When I first heard him, it was wonderful to hear the unusual ways he would put voicings together. That’s really what I think his contribution was. He himself was profoundly influenced by Nelson Riddle. He was very interested in the effects of doubling notes and not doubling notes. He was often very careful not to double certain notes. I remember grabbing this guy and saying, “Chris, you’ve got to show me how you voice that chord,” and I’d be sitting there writing down stuff and trying to figure it out. A lot of players in Chicago were doing exactly the same thing, because he really had a lot to offer.

That was an interesting approach to “Bemsha Swing.” I feel an affinity for that tune, having just recorded it myself as a solo pianist, and it’s always so interesting to hear what other people do with it. This pianist took it in a very different direction, dealing with a lot of the fragments of the melody, and it was played in a very spare way. It sounded to me like someone who has quite a bit of a classical background. I liked the originality of some of the figurations and way of approaching the tune, which I thought breathed some freshness into this. 3½ stars. No idea who it might be offhand. [AFTER] I love Fred’s playing, and I wouldn’t have picked this one out. Monk is so marvelous, because not only was he unique in the universe, but his compositions are springboards for so many players and improvisers to take things into their own realm. I don’t think the idea is to be “faithful” to Monk (I don’t think he would have wanted that), but rather than you could use these pieces as wonderful launching pads. So I’m always interested to see what other players do with Monk, and I’ve always found his compositions to be really inspirational. I think I started playing some of his stuff in high school. I heard some of the Blue Note things that I liked. Another album that really appealed to me was called Nica’s Tempo, a Gigi Gryce album on Signal. Half the album was Monk, Gigi Gryce, Percy Heath and Art Blakey, and they had things like “Gallop’s Gallop” and “Brake’s Sake.” I loved those pieces, man. And I loved the early Blue Note stuff, which I heard in high school. [Did you have to figure out fingerings and ways to play them? Was that part of the pleasure, too?] Sure. You had to figure out how to negotiate them. But I guess in some ways, more even than physically playing his tunes was the inspiration his compositions and improvisations gave to me to be able to take my own work into different spaces. I think that’s generally been true of how I’ve assimilated music. It hasn’t been so much that I’ve wanted to play a lot of the pieces of other jazz musicians, although I do and I’ve recorded, but even more, their gift to me is what I can do, and then take it in terms of my own compositions and improvisations. The same thing is true with the influence of the classical composers on me when I was growing up. I was always drawn much more to the modern people. Initially I made a big leap all the way from Bach to the impressionists and beyond. In more recent years, I’ve sort of been drinking in the period in between with a great love for Rachmaninoff and Chopin and lots of other people. But I was tremendously drawn to Ravel and Bartok and Berg and people like that, and then, of course, George Russell, when I heard him in high school, knocked the top of my head off. [Were these things in the air in Chicago at all? Do you think that you and generational contemporaries were listening to similar music and affected by similar strains?] I don’t know. I don’t remember talking to people a lot about, for instance, what classical composers they were listening to. We would talk a lot about records that had come out or players we liked in the jazz genre. But I had come up studying classical music throughout grade school, and had always loved these more modern people. But again, I didn’t have a tremendous interest in keeping up a classical repertoire and performing classical pieces. I wanted to use that material in my own music. That’s always been the way I’ve been built. [I’m also interested in the common strains? A Chicago school of piano playing?] I’m trying to think. I don’t remember having conversations with Chicago pianists about classical music very much. I remember talking to Chris Anderson a bit when he was talking about Nelson Riddle. He certainly loved the Impressionists and the voicings of those players. But I don’t remember talking about Classical music with the Chicago cats.

That was another piece that really takes you on a journey. I thought it had tremendous hypnotic drive to it, a very skilled pianist. I enjoy very much overlaying different time signatures against each other and asymmetric figures that crash through and drape over barlines, and this pianist enjoys doing that kind of thing, too, so I feel a kindred spirit with that. There was just a wonderful roiling feeling to it all the way through. The drummer was just terrific. Very enjoyable. 5 stars. Don’t know who that is, though. [AFTER] Don’t know him. Terrific pianist.

Boy, what a beautiful journey through “Embraceable You” that was. Gorgeous recording in terms of sound. The pianist has a beautiful touch. Now, these are the voicings that I would have expected from the Chris Anderson cut. If Chris were physically in better shape, I’d say this could be Chris, but he rarely was feeling physically well enough to be able to play at this technical level. As you know, he had ostogenesis imperfecta, and was always nursing injuries. It was amazing that he could play at all, given what he was dealing with. This was just a beautiful rendition, I thought. The rubato treatment. Beautiful and unusual reharmonizations throughout. Lovely surprises. You feel the pianist searching, taking his or her time with this piece. Going for not the easy answer. Some of the modulations I thought were heartbreakingly beautiful, and the improvisation using fragments of the melody rather than feeling that they had to be worked through in terms of the actual structure of the tune per se. Beautiful playing. 5 stars. I have no idea who it is. [AFTER] Herbie? Wow. Beautiful. It’s gorgeous, and I’ve been a big fan of Herbie’s playing over the years. We had only a nodding acquaintance in Chicago. We got to know each other better when I was out on the West Coast and he would come through with Miles. We used to get together and do four-handed duets on my piano, and we’ve enjoyed each other’s work a lot through the years. I am hoping, if Columbia ever releases a CD of this concert that was done in honor of Conrad Silvert back in the ‘80s… Herbie and I did a two-piano duet on “Round Midnight” which I would love to see included. I thought it was something really special.

Certainly very different from anything you’ve played for me so far today. This is a melding of Pop and Rock and perhaps even Folk elements. Aspects of it remind me of the Bad Plus, but it doesn’t have the fire and the drive that I typically associate with their playing – at least that I’ve heard. It makes me wonder about a group that I haven’t yet heard, but I’ve heard about – whether this could be E.S.T. Certainly the group was using these very simple motifs, and just laying them down very repetitive, I think trying to establish a hypnotic groove on those terms. It certainly seemed like it’s played by people who know how to play their instruments, and it’s just a question if one is drawn to this kind of thing. For my own personal taste, 3 stars. [AFTER] I thought it could have been screaming Europeans! I haven’t heard E.S.T. Do they sound like this at all? [They sound very Nordic – folk music, club beats, classical harmony] I heard them last year at IAJE, and I loved them. I thought what they did that night was terrific. But this didn’t have the balls.

Nice treatment of an old standard, “You’re My Everything.” A pianist who obviously has a realized style, a very sumptuous, relaxed sound. Nice voicings. The whole group sounded very relaxed. There were some nice reharmonizations on the head. The bass player is terrific; took a couple of excellent choruses. Then the piano solo was interesting, had a great relaxed feel to it, some moments of nice right hand-left hand interaction. When they finally got into walking on this piece, there was a really good groove, and a very nice feel to it. I liked the way the head was approached at the end in a kind of loose way, and then they moved into this eighth-note vamp at the end which was very relaxed and had some interesting piano figures on it. Overall, a very satisfying cut. 4½ stars. [AFTER] Don’t know him. Never heard him. Nice player.

That was “Miyako” from my favorite living composer, Wayne Shorter. A very nice treatment, verging into the more dramatic ways of approaching the piece. The pianist had very, very nice voicings and command of the instrument. A very graceful style. It sounded more like Herbie to me than anybody. I doubt you’d play two tracks from the same pianist in the same Blindfold Test, but it’s somebody who has certainly been very influenced by Herbie. The bass player sounded like he was influenced by Charlie Haden, but also played very well. I thought the whole feel of the piece was very satisfying. 4½ stars.

A furious, tumultuous version of “Maiden Voyage,” played by a pianist who I think must be Eldar Djangirov. I’ve never heard his recordings, but I did hear him live last year at the IAJE Convention. He’s a young man with obviously prodigious talent and technique, and hopefully he’ll stay healthy and have all the exposure he needs that will nurture his talent, and that more and more what will emerge will be his true voice, his true center. Right now, I think he’s facing the problem that almost all young jazz players face, particularly if they’re as gifted as he is, of becoming an editor of one’s own materials. There’s a tendency to want to put everything into every piece that one can do and that one knows. There’s a gravitational pull to do that. It can be very seductive. I think time will tell, and with this kind of talent he’s got a brilliant future. 3 stars.

That was Ahmad Jamal playing “I’m Old Fashioned,” or somebody who clones himself after Ahmad. I enjoyed it tremendously. I will assume it’s Ahmad, and so make comments about him and what I think his music has meant particularly to the whole trio tradition. Coming up in the ‘50s in Chicago I had a chance to hear him, and his use of space and the way of floating over the time and getting that kind of groove. The groove on that piece was very typical of the kind of groove that Vernell Fournier and Israel Crosby would get with him back in the ‘50s when he was playing these kinds of pieces. There was always this wonderful sense of drama and surprise in his playing. He, too, had been influenced by Chris Anderson and had gotten some very unusual ways of reharmonizing and voicing chords I think at least partly from Chris. He certainly is an original and has his own thing. It’s a pleasure to hear this. I’ll be embarrassed if it’s somebody cloning himself after Ahmad, but that I think is worth 5 stars.

* * *

Liner Notes, Denny Zeitlin, As Long As There’s Music:

On As Long As There’s Music, pianist Denny Zeitlin, bassist Buster Williams and drummer Al Foster, who boast more than one hundred years of combined professional experience, embody the principle of the trio as an equilateral triangle. Addressing a varied program of interesting Songbook and Jazz standards plus a few pungent originals, Zeitlin, guided by unerring melodic radar, ingeniously reimagines his material, reharmonizing and orchestrating with spontaneous elan, maintaining peak focus and flow throughout the recital, deploying towards unfailingly musical ends a prodigious technique that Marion McPartland, referring to a duet they played last year on her NPR “Piano Jazz” show, described as akin “to a tidal wave washing over me.” Williams and Foster anticipate Zeitlin’s postulations, responding with laser quick precision, nuanced musicality and relentless swing; if you didn’t know that this was their first-ever encounter, you’d swear they’d shared bandstands for years.

Zeitlin is a psychiatrist with a large private practice in the Bay Area. He also teaches at the University of California and lecture-demonstrates on the psychology of improvising. So he can speak with some authority on the interpersonal dynamics of trio playing, of which this session might serve as a textbook. “You always hope for a merger experience with your partners, which can be complicated in a trio,” he remarks. “If things go extremely well, three people can feel that the music is just emanating from the stage — it’s hard even to know for sure who is playing what. When my own personal creative forces are at their height, I have this feeling of merger. I also have it when I’m doing my best work as a psychiatrist, a sense of inhabiting the world that my patients are talking about.

“If I had been a surgeon, I can’t imagine how I would infuse my three-thousandth appendectomy with new excitement. As you do psychotherapy, as much as it’s true that you hear common themes in the human life cycle that endlessly repeat, every person’s experience and presentation of this is unique, so that it really never gets old. In my psychiatric office, I am the accompanist. I am trying to help the patient tell their story. My function is to help them feel it’s safe to go into areas of their life they might not otherwise be able to investigate. The role of accompanying another soloist on the bandstand is parallel. The biggest difference is that I often solo for long periods of time on a stage, which I’m not doing in my office with patients.”

Now 62, Zeitlin is no stranger to jazz connoisseurs. His five mid-’60s trio albums for Columbia won widespread acclaim, resulting in two first place finishes in the Downbeat Critics Poll. He spent the ’70s focusing on a pioneering integration of jazz, electronics, classical and rock, culminating in the 1978 electronic-acoustic score for Invasion Of The Body Snatchers. He concertizes internationally, working with bass giants like David Friesen, Charlie Haden, and John Patitucci, appearing at one point or another with John Abercrombie, Herbie Hancock, Joe Henderson, Bobby Hutcherson, the Kronos Quartet, Pat Metheny, Tony Williams, and Paul Winter.

That said, most Zeitlin devotees probably don’t know much about his formative years, when he encountered the blend of cultural influences that shaped his sensibility. It started at home, in Highland Park, a suburb north of Chicago. His mother, Rosalyn, was a speech pathologist and “fairly decent classical pianist,” while his father, Nathaniel, was a radiologist “who couldn’t read a note but could play the piano by ear.” As he puts it, “I bilaterally had both fields — medicine and music — from day one, and always an atmosphere in the home that seemed to say people can follow their muse, that it doesn’t have to be either-or; from very early on I had a sense that I was going to be involved in some way in the two fields.”

Zeitlin remembers traversing the keyboard at 2 or 3; soon after he began “picking out little melodies and improvising.” Formal instruction began at 7 or 8. He recalls: “I always had a hunger for unusual sounds and combinations and dissonance. I loved the Impressionists, particularly Ravel, and was tremendously excited by composers like Prokofiev, Bartok, Stravinsky and Berg. I started to listen to jazz around eighth grade. One night my music teacher brought to a lesson a recording of George Shearing playing ‘Summertime’ and I was knocked out. Here was this guy who obviously had a Classical background and technique to burn, and what was this music he was playing? I wanted to learn about this genre! She began bringing Art Tatum albums over, and that was it.”

As a high school freshman Zeitlin formed a piano-guitar-drums trio called the Cool Tones for which he composed original music informed by the cutting edge of the zeitgeist. He cites as early influences Bud Powell (“his power and angularity and originality spoke to me”), Billy Taylor (“he had consummate taste and such a beautiful touch; I was particularly drawn to the power of his ballad playing”), Lennie Tristano (“his harmonic conception and rhythmic subtleties with the line of a solo”), Dave Brubeck (“I thought he had his own thing and followed it with tremendous conviction”), and Thelonious Monk (“an utterly quirky genius full of endless surprise”).

Zeitlin began to partake of Chicago’s raucous jazz scene as soon as he could drive, hearing headliners and “resident greatness” at North Side institutions like Mr. Kelly’s and the French Poodle, hanging out in South Side rooms like the Beehive and the Stage Lounge until 4 or 5 in the morning. By his senior year he was jamming with hardcore Windy City progressives, forming relationships that deepened as he pursued pre-med studies at the University of Illinois, in downstate Champaign, where Joe Farrell, Jack McDuff and Roger Kellaway were among the local talent.

“My parents knew I was utterly galvanized by this, that it was so deeply embedded in my psyche that it was important to encourage and allow this to happen,” Zeitlin explains. “They had a tremendous amount of trust in me; that I wasn’t, for example, using drugs or having problems with alcohol, that I could be around that subculture without being involved in it. And indeed, their trust was not misplaced. I was able to take this opportunity of a priceless many-year informal apprenticeship in the music. In those days there were no formal jazz schools. This was the way one had to learn it. I would collar somebody like Chris Anderson after the gig and say, ‘Man, sit down with me for a minute here; how did you voice such-and-such?’ By osmosis I tried to absorb as much of this art form as I could, and generally, I found musicians were gracious and willing to show me stuff and to give me a chance to play.”

By 1954, Zeitlin’s influences, as he puts it, “rapidly became non-pianistic.” He honed in on Miles Davis’ “incredible sense of pulse and melodic elegance, never a wasted note, never a cliche, always pushing the edge.” He was fascinated with the roles of drums and bass, particularly Art Blakey, Philly Joe Jones, Percy Heath and Paul Chambers — he took up the instruments enough to do some gigging both in high school and college. He analyzed the harmonic system John Coltrane was developing circa 1959-60, and analogizes the experience of hearing Coltrane as “like being shot out of a cannon, being at the center of a cyclone; I was tremendously drawn towards what some people have called his vertical chromaticism.” He fell in love with the free improvisation aesthetic of the Ornette Coleman quartet; “I’d enjoyed free improvisation since I was 2 or 3 years, and here were guys making a whole life out of doing it in jazz.”

While Zeitlin attended medical school at Johns Hopkins, in Baltimore, he “had carte blanche, whenever I could sneak away, to come and sit in at the North End Lounge,” owned by the father of saxophonist Gary Bartz, where he played with musicians like the younger Bartz, trombonist Grachan Moncur and drummer Billy Hart. In 1963, while attending Columbia University on a fellowship, he met composer-theorist George Russell — “We hung out, talked about music, played with each other; he was tremendously encouraging to me.” During that time, Paul Winter, a Chicago acquaintance, “dragged me kicking and screaming to meet his producer, John Hammond. I played a few tunes for John solo piano, and he startled me by saying, ‘Hey, I’d love for you to record; you can play whatever you want and use whomever you want.'”

Consider this complex matrix of experience as you listen to the assorted treasures — they’re primarily first takes — on As Long As There’s Music. The title could serve as Zeitlin’s raison d’etre. “I try to get to the piano every day,” he states, “not so much out of a sense of duty to the instrument, but that I am called to it. Because I have played for so long, I have a certain technical base that endures even during periods where I’m not able to play as much as I would like. I was never drawn to technical exercises. I garnered new technical skills by pushing myself to play classical pieces somewhat beyond my current technical capability. Now when I practice, I usually just improvise, sometimes with an ear towards possible composition. Doing that keeps my fingers lubricated, and it nourishes my soul to be with music. Every time I sit down at the keyboard I remind myself of how profoundly grateful I am to be able to play.”

The title track, which Zeitlin first heard on an early ’50s George Shearing quintet side, is a favorite of the bassist Charlie Haden, who Zeitlin met when the pianist arrived in the Bay Area in 1964 as an intern at San Francisco General Hospital. Haden was on two of Zeitlin’s early Columbia LPs, and they recorded a duo version of the song on a 1983 ECM album. On this version Zeitlin shifts the piece into waltz time, employs a bit of organic reharmonization, Foster articulates barely perceptible shifts in tempo and dynamics, Williams nudges the pulse along with subtle accents, and the trio rides out with a polyrhythmic dialogue on a sweet vamp.

Zeitlin notes: “The challenge of a standard is to be faithful to the original spirit of the piece, but find an approach that might breathe fresh life into it. You can reshape it structurally, but most often you may want to reharmonize it, which can seduce you with its possibilities. At its worst it becomes an exercise in how clever the musician can be. Often, the tune gets lost, or becomes so cluttered that it becomes a logjam of material. I try to keep those pitfalls in mind, but allow myself to see what new directions the tune might take.”

Zeitlin conceptualized “They Can’t Take That Away From Me” and “The Man I Love” for a Gershwin concert celebration a few months before the session. On the former, after the trio serenely states the head, Zeitlin plays solo piano with a bit of stride and a nod to Art Tatum, which cues an increasingly intense piano-drum duet, which leads to a double-time trio section that evokes the essence of Bud Powell. After Buster Williams’ spot-on solo, they transition to the original medium-tempo head statement.

The latter tune, which concludes the album, opens with a brief free piano improvisation which sets a mood, before a rubato melody statement that brings in the trio, which springboards off a vivid vamp into ever-escalating improvisational adventures.

Is the consummately lyrical Zeitlin a lyrics man or is he inspired by a song’s musical content? “It’s more of the latter,” Zeitlin responds. “I know many musicians feel it’s crucial to know the lyric — almost ‘How could you not know it and play the tune?’ But in fact, most of these tunes are written music first, lyrics second, and my allegiance is to the composer. Now, the lyrics of some tunes end up embedded in my psyche, and I find myself hearing fragments of them. Certainly I hear a lot of Sinatra in my head when I hear any tune that he’s recorded because I’m so totally taken with him. Favorite female vocalists whose lyrics stay with me over the years have been Sarah Vaughan, Jackie Cain and Elis Regina.”

Add to that list Billie Holiday, the inspiration for “For Heaven’s Sake,” which Zeitlin played for years in solo, duo and trio contexts, but never recorded. His reharmonized interpretation, framing a delicate Buster Williams solo, evokes the inherent tenderness and yearning in the melody.

“There and Back,” the first of two Zeitlin originals, moves back and forth between walking jazz time and a straight-eighth, funky feel, while “Canyon” is a clever “minor blues-oid construction.” “I’ve always perceived improvisation as being spontaneous composition,” says Zeitlin, whose best-known piece is “Quiet Now,” which Bill Evans recorded numerous times. “I hope my improvising imparts a sense of a journey, a feeling of inevitability about how it proceeds, that it isn’t just a hodge-podge of possibilities or a pastiche of colors or novelty for its own sake. I often think of my pieces as roadmaps that we can loosely follow to get from one destination to the other, with some interesting roadblocks and detour signs along the way that challenge me and the musicians.”

Zeitlin heard Barbra Streisand sing “I’m All Smiles” on her ’60s People album; the trio plays it straight in a relaxed version that brings out all the beauty of the melody.

“Cousin Mary” continues a long line of Zeitlin interpretations of John Coltrane’s “Atlantic period.” Zeitlin reharmonizes the head and drives hard-edged right into the blues; he sounds like a playful dancer, deconstructing the harmonic structure with wit and imagination.

There’s an elegant reading of Antonio Carlos Jobim’s “Triste,” and a heart-on-the-sleeve version of “I Fall In Love Too Easily” that Zeitlin describes as “a real organic journey.”

The same could be said for the entirety of As Long As There’s Music. “I organized the arrangements to explore different things we could do as a trio,” Zeitlin concludes. “I was hoping to see how deep and how broad we could go in this weekend we were going to play together. I felt there was some special chemistry here.”

* * * *

Denny Zeitlin (For As Long As There’s Music) – (9-16-00):

TP: Let’s talk about the circumstances of this record. You haven’t recorded with a trio for 10-11-12 years. What’s the most common configuration in performance, solo, duo, trio? Are they all equally…

ZEITLIN: In some ways they are yes. Over time they’ve been pretty balanced. Rarely I’ll play in a larger context, maybe a quartet, but it’s typically more of a solo, duo or trio setting for me.

TP: Perhaps you could state in a succinct way the different experience of performing in each media, how each creates a different space for you.

ZEITLIN: The solo playing offers the unique challenge of having to create all the music oneself. I’ve always thought of the piano as a symphonic instrument, so it gives me an opportunity and a challenge of trying to paint with all the colors of the orchestra as best I can, using the piano. It also offers me complete freedom as to where I might take the form from moment to moment. I don’t have to really be concerned by the forces that might be mobilized by the other musicians on the stage. In some ways that’s a plus as a soloist. Out there all by myself, I can take it wherever I would like. On the other hand, you can argue that I miss out on all of the input that another or other musicians would give me. So there’s always positives and negatives to these situations when you compare them to other possibilities. But just in and of itself, the solo situation is a marvelous one for me in that I do get a chance to take the music wherever it might want to go from moment to moment, and that I have this kind of unique possibility for producing all of it myself. In that setting, on a psychological level, the kind of emotional connection I’m making is to the music and to the spirit of the music, and then to the audience in the sense of reaching out with this music to I guess what Stravinsky used to talk about as “the hypothetical Other” — the perfect audience person. And I’m hoping there’s at least a few of them out there in the actual audience. I’m sending the music out there in the hopes that the people will try to reach out and meet the music halfway. When that happens, it’s a very palpable experience for me, and at its very best I end up feeling like I’m just a conduit for the music, and that we’re all in the audience listening to what’s going on.

TP: Now, the duo situation I would presume has a somewhat different dialoguing quality.

ZEITLIN: It does. And it still contains the complement of sending the music out and hoping for a merger experience with the audience. But in the duo setting, I’m hoping for a merger experience with whomever is my musical partner up there. Since typically it’s been bass, although I do duets with David Grisman, and I’ve played duets in the past with Herbie Hancock, with John Abercrombie, with Marion McPartland… It’s the most transparent kind of group playing, as far as I can see. With just two people up there, there is a tremendous kind of interpersonal nakedness, which at its best can lead to some very special music. It doesn’t have the complexity, in some ways, of a trio, but in some ways it has more freedom in that there is maybe more opportunity to take the form in different directions from moment to moment, because there could be a greater possibility that two people will be in synch than three. And particularly with bass and piano, with no drums, there is a lot of opportunity for a certain kind of subtlety and nuance to be heard that might otherwise be covered sometimes, at least, by drums, no matter how sensitive a drummer might be, and very subtle shifts in timbre can be heard and perceived. So I think of the duo situation more like a kind of group chamber music of a sort. And it’s a very exciting form, and I’ve enjoyed that. I’ve done a lot of duo playing over the last 15 years with David Friesen; we’ve recorded a number of albums together, and that’s been a very special experience.

In the trio it gets more complicated. I think we still have the opportunity and obligation to attempt the merger with the audience, but now we’ve got three people…if things are going extremely well, three people who could somehow have a kind of merger experience where we all feel that the music is just emanating from the stage, but it’s hard to even know for sure who is playing what. I think when my own personal creative forces are at their height, I have this feeling of merger. I think it’s also true when I’m doing my best work as a psychiatrist.

TP: That you have a sense of merger with the patient.

ZEITLIN: Yes, with the patient and with the material, a sense of really inhabiting the world that they are talking about. I am hoping to achieve some measure of that in the musical setting as well.

TP: Hopefully what a writer would wish to achieve with his subject. Empathy.

ZEITLIN: It’s empathy and also the flow experience, that Mihalyihas Csikszent has written about. He’s written about a dozen books, starting in 1976, about the flow experience. What’s the essential fun in Fun, and what is it that particularly will call people to do activities that don’t seem to have tremendous external rewards. He over a period of time delineated the characteristics of the flow experience, which are things like utter concentration without being aware that one is particularly concentrating, an altered sense of time, a sense of tremendous internal rightness about what’s going on, a process orientation rather than a content orientation, the merger experience with the activity and often ecstatic feelings about it. Those are parts of the flow experience, maybe not an exhaustive list of the components of it.

TP: Had you ever worked with this particular configuration before?

ZEITLIN: This was a first time experience. One rehearsal the day before.

TP: You sound like to me like you’d been playing together for ten years.

ZEITLIN: I thought there was a special rapport that immediately generated with these guys. I had loved their music for years. I first heard Al with Miles years ago, and I heard Buster even earlier when he was with Herbie, and I had always hoped that someday I might get a chance to do a project with them. In fact, Todd asked me to do a little personal liner for the album, and I mention that. I’ll send you those few paragraphs. I go into it, that I’d always hoped to do a project with them. So when this came along, when Todd called me about doing this trio album, I thought immediately of them, and I was delighted that they were available and it turned out that they were both familiar with my music and had liked it, so that we approached it all of us having a good vibe about what we’d heard earlier in each other’s music, and I think considerable excitement about what we might do together. Sometimes studio sessions can sound fairly mundane or just workmanlike, or people get together and the music is good and whatever. But I felt there was some special chemistry here.

TP: You’ve done a lot of live recordings.

ZEITLIN: Yes, and I generally prefer the live setting for a recording, because I think it helps get people into that flow experience, that the presence and challenge of an audience can pull more for that sort of merger experience and a higher level of excitement. So a studio poses a challenge of can you tap into this somehow. I thought all the ingredients were present in this setting. This was Clinton Studio A. I’d never played there before. I thought the room had great feel. It was one of the best Steinway Grands I’d ever performed on. It was impeccably maintained. It was as if I had sat down at the piano and played a few notes, and the piano said to me, “We can do anything you want.” Sometimes one gets a personal sense of connection to an instrument. It’s interesting that almost everyone else carries their instrument with them wherever they go, so they develop I’m sure a much more intense personal attachment and connection to the actual instrument. I am at the mercy of what’s at every venue. So there’s always some anxiety, despite reassurances, as to what I am going to run into, whether it’s a performance or a recording. This just happened to be an almost miraculous Steinway, one of the top 3 or 4 pianos I’ve ever played in my life. The studio had a whole cupboard full of almost antique treasures, of tube and Neumann microphones, which are just gorgeous. They gave that wonderful warm sound to the piano. It’s I think a really extraordinarily excellent piano-sonic recording. And the way it was set up, the earphone mixes were excellent, so I could hear everybody. And Todd is a wonderful guy to work with. He was sensitive, he was helpful, but totally non-intrusive.

TP: Here’s the way I want to approach the note. It’s a program that refers to a very wide span of material, and it’s consistent with… I’m afraid I really don’t know your ’60s music or the electronic things you did in the ’70s, but it seems that in the last 15-20 years a lot of your performance has been about including the dynamics of your whole range of experience.

ZEITLIN: Yes, I think that’s very true.

TP: I would like to take you back a little bit into your influences in conceptualizing the sound of a piano trio. I’d like you to talk about each of the tunes and the associations those tunes had for you, and a bit formally about how you approached those tunes. And I would like to go into a little biographical detail about your formative years, which I haven’t read in any of these notes. So let’s go back to the boilerplate things, and take it into something specific and informative about how it inflects on this record. You started playing at an incredibly early age.

ZEITLIN: I started when I was maybe 2 or 3 years old. I do have memories of sitting on the lap of whichever parent was playing the piano, and putting my little hands on their hands and going along for the ride kinesthetically before I could even play a note. I had a sense of what it was like to traverse a keyboard. Then I started just picking out little melodies and improvising, and I think very wisely, my parents held off formal instruction, so that I think I was 7 or 8 before I really had a hunger to start studying music and learning how to read notes. I was composing and improvising for some years by then. They sensed that I just needed space and time to explore that. It was I think a very important decision on their part. My mother turned out to be my first music teacher. She was a fairly decent classical pianist and also a speech pathologist, so she brought both medicine and music from her side. And my father had a very good ear, couldn’t read a note but could play the piano by ear, and he was a radiologist. So bilaterally I had both fields from day one, and always an atmosphere in the home that seemed to say that people can follow their muse, and it doesn’t have to be either-or. I think from very early on I had a sense I was going to be involved in some way in the two fields.

TP: Your first influences were classical, obviously. When did you start to become aware of jazz? And more specifically, when did you start to become aware of the notion that there were improvisers who articulated specific voices. Improvisational personalities. Let’s say the difference between Bud Powell and Thelonious Monk and George Shearing, presuming those are people who are part of your matrix.

ZEITLIN: I think it was really in eighth grade that I started to listen to jazz and really notice jazz. Certainly I had heard the music. But prior to that I was studying Classical music, always drawn much more to 20th Century music and the Impressionist. It’s as though I took a leap from Bach, whom I always loved, all the way to the Impressionists and beyond. I always had a hunger for unusual sounds and combinations and dissonance, and tremendous excitedly by composers like Prokofiev and Bartok and Stravinsky and Berg. I loved the Impressionists, particularly Ravel. This music just really always touched my soul.

In eighth grade I remember my music teacher brought a little 10″ MGM LP to a music lesson one night, and the title of the album was You’re Hearing George Shearing. I remember hearing that; the first piece I ever heard him play was “Summertime,” and I remember being just absolutely knocked out, that wow, here was this guy who obviously had a Classical background and technique to burn, and what was this music he was playing? The rhythmic drive on that album with other instruments… Boy, I just wanted to learn about this genre. So she began bringing other albums over, listening to Art Tatum, and then I was in…

TP: You had a hip piano teacher.

ZEITLIN: Oh, she was great. She couldn’t play jazz, but she was absolutely wide-open to anything I wanted to do. It was a great-great blessing. When I got into my high school, in my freshman year there were a number of other fledgling jazz musicians, and I formed a trio with drums and guitar… I still remember. We called ourselves the Cool-Tones!

TP: This was around 1952 or so.

ZEITLIN: This would be ’52. I started listening to Bud Powell. The first trio I ever heard live, in terms of a touring band, was the Billy Taylor Trio, and I remember being tremendously excited by what he was doing and touched by his music. I felt he had consummate taste and such a beautiful touch. I was particularly drawn to the beauty of his ballad playing, and I loved everything he did. Bud Powell’s power and angularity and originality spoke to me. Lennie Tristano’s harmonic conception and the subtleties of what he would do rhythmically with the line of a solo. I really was drawn to that. I liked Dave Brubeck a lot. I thought he had his own thing, and really followed it with tremendous conviction. I continued to listen to George Shearing. Certainly Thelonious Monk I liked a lot. Those were the very early pianistic influences.

TP: So you were very much in tune with your zeitgeist of your time, in many ways. This is what the cutting edge was in 1955-6-7. And you grew up in the north suburbs?

ZEITLIN: Yes, I grew up in Highland Park.

TP: And when did you start partaking of music as beyond your immediate milieu. You mentioned it briefly before, that at a certain point you started going into Chicago quite a bit, and specifically the South Side scene.

ZEITLIN: I started going into the city to hear music when I was a freshman in high school, because I was tall and in a dark room I could pass. But I didn’t actually start sitting in until I was a senior in high school or something like that.

TP: So there’s the Beehive, the 63rd Street strip…

ZEITLIN: Yes, the Stage Lounge I remember. Then there were places like Mr. Kelly’s, the French Poodle…

TP: How much hanging out did you do? You did get into medical school eventually!

ZEITLIN: I did, I did. But in my spare time, I would just carve it out. I was immersed in this music, listening to it, rehearsing, going to jam sessions, listening to great musicians. And there was fortunately a tremendous amount of resident greatness in the Chicago area, as well as people who would come through, traveling headliners that I would get to see. It was marvelous…

TP: Were you paying attention to Ahmad Jamal during this time?

ZEITLIN: Yes, I liked Ahmad very much. I wouldn’t say he was as much of an early influence as these other people I mentioned.

TP: There are a lot of orchestrative things you do within the dynamics of this record… Well, I guess his impact was so pervasive on the sound of contemporary piano trios…

ZEITLIN: It’s sometimes hard to… You get immersed in a form, and you listen to dozens and dozens of players, and you get… To some degree, we’re influenced by everything we hear. What you hope is that you integrate it in a way and that you have something personal to offer, that you develop a personal voice.

I had a chance fairly early on to play with some really fine players, like Bobby Cranshaw, the bassist, and Wilbur Ware, Walter Perkins, a great drummer, Ira Sullivan, a marvelous trumpeter and tenor player, Nicky Hill, Johnny Griffin. Really excellent players. So all through college I would come up, frequently on weekends, and go to jam sessions and play with these guys, play gigs… Also, there were very good players at the University of Illinois, where I was an undergrad. Joe Farrell, whose real name was Firantello, was there, and we used to play together a lot. Jack McDuff was living down there at the time, playing bass as well as organ, and Roger Kellaway was around. He also played very good bass, as well as piano. I feel everywhere I’ve gone since high school I’ve been fortunate to find excellent musical opportunities to keep the juices flowing while I was studying either premed or medicine.

The same thing happened when I went to Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1960. Gary Bartz’s father had a jazz club called the North End Lounge in Baltimore. I used to go sit in with Gary and some other great cats who… I remember a couple of times Grachan Moncur was down there, and Billy Hart was a resident drummer. I had a carte blanche invitation, whenever I could sneak away from medical school, to come and sit in. It was just great fun.

Then in 1963, I stumbled really into recording. I’d had some inquiries and nibbles early on, and really had some resistance to the whole idea of making a record. I’d heard so many stories from musicians about how record companies ripped them off, subverted their musical identities, etcetera, etc. And I figured, “Look, I’m going to be a doctor; I love this music; I can keep it pure; I’ll just play; I don’t really care about particularly a public career.” Then I was in New York on a fellowship at Columbia in 1963, and Paul Winter, who had been at Northwestern for a number of years and had heard me play and had always liked my playing, he had been recording for Columbia for a year or so, and he dragged me literally kicking and screaming to meet his producer, John Hammond. I played a few tunes for John solo piano, and he just loved what I was doing, and startled me by saying, “Hey, I’d love for you to record; you can record whatever you want, you can use whomever you want” — carte blanche.

TP: Was what you played within the tradition or in the framework of stretching out?

ZEITLIN: Both. John was a marvelous guy with tremendously broad tastes, and he was as good as his word. He wanted me to get my feet wet with recording by being the featured pianist with Jeremy Steig on Jeremy’s first outing for the label, which was in 1963. That was a lot of fun. I remember that session as being a ball. Ben Riley was on drums and Ben Tucker was on bass. I thought the chemistry was great among the four of us. Then what followed were four trio projects for Columbia over the next handful of years. Out here in California I was able to hook up with Charlie Haden and Jerry Granelli, and we were a working trio for 2-1/2 years and did an album and a half together. Then I played with some other cats in a trio, and we recorded most of the last album I did for Columbia, which was called Zeitgeist, actually my favorite of the whole series. That came out in 1967.

By that time, I’d been listening to quite a bit of Rock-and-Roll and some of the avant-garde electronic music, and I was interested in a lot of what was happening in modern Classical music, and I was getting restless with what felt like the limitations of the acoustic piano sound. I wanted to be able to bend notes, I wanted to be able to sustain notes like horns and guitar players could. So I really withdrew from public performance for over a year or so, and tried to do some R&D as to what was available, and I hired engineers to build me sound modules…

TP: Boy, were you in the right spot in 1968.

ZEITLIN: Well, a lot was starting. But this was before you could walk to your corner grocery and come back with a Moog synthesizer under your arm. This was the era where you take wires and you patch together a sound, and it probably takes you five minutes to do the whole cascade, and then you get one note. You don’t get two notes.

TP: It’s fascinating because you’re in on it from the beginning. It’s as though someone presents something to you, you work with it, then they present something else, you can work with that, and it’s all fresh and new and un-cliched.

ZEITLIN: I’ve always been drawn to new ways of trying to express myself. I am attracted to the idea of stretching. I have never been an either-or type of person. I’ve always been a both-and type of person. I think you were quite correct when you talked about the breadth of what I try to do. For me, there’s no reason why there have to be artificial boundaries between Classical music, Rock, Funk, Jazz, Folk music, Electronic music. There’s no reason why one has to, in some a priori way, say that some are off-base for others. There is material in all of those forms that called to me. Why not try to have a musical palette to paint with that can use all those colors? That’s what I’m drawn to. So I was just excited at the prospect of what I could do with electronics. So I got people to build the various things for me, and sound-altering devices and foot switches and pedals. A lot of it was totally customized at that point. Gradually I developed what looked like a 747 cockpit of six or seven keyboard instruments, along with the acoustic piano and miles of cords and banks of flip switches that were more complicated than a B-3 pedal box. It would take 6 hours to tear this down from my studio at home, take it to a local gig and set it up, play the gig, and then another 6 hours to undo it. And for several years I did this. There was a ten-year period, from ’68 to ’78, when I really was involved in this electronic-acoustic integration of all of these forms. I found musicians who were willing to go on that exploration with me. People I played with predominantly during that period were George Marsh on drums and Mel Graves on bass. That’s when I did Szyzgy and the album Expansion, which was the first album of this kind of music. When I wanted to make a record of it and queried some record labels at the time, I got a lot of responses back saying, “Gee, Denny, honestly we love this music, but we don’t know how in the world we would market it. We wouldn’t know what conduit to put it through marketing-wise.” So I ended up starting my own label, called Double-Helix records, to even put this out, and I sold out the first pressing. Then there was a local, very avant-garde label called 1750 Arch Records which expressed an interest in taking it over, and I was delighted. Because being an administrator and packing up LPs is not my idea of a good time. So they took over Expansion, and then I did Szyzgy for them and also a solo piano album of totally free improvisations called Soundings which was released in ’78.

’78 really marked a turning point for me again. I had an opportunity, again just by luck, to score a major motion picture film…

TP: The remake of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

ZEITLIN: That’s right. Philip Kaufman was a Chicago guy, and he had heard me play and had it in his head that some day he wanted me to do a jazz score for him. So he called me in in ’78, I guess, or maybe it was late ’77, when he was in the process of getting ready to shoot this film, and asked me whether I would be interested in doing it. It sounded great to me. I love science fiction, and I’d always hoped some day I would get a chance to score a major film but figured it was really unlikely. Because to get that, typically, you live in L.A., you pound on doors for ten years, then you’re given maybe a dozen first projects where the budget is for a kazoo and a harmonica, and maybe if you’re lucky and play enough political games, about five years later you’ll get to score a major film. So all of a sudden this back door seemed to be opening, and I was very excited about it. But then it looked like it wouldn’t happen, because Philip’s idea about the film shifted, and it looked like he was going to need an 20th century avant-garde symphonic score. I had no established credentials for this. So I had to convince him and his producer that I could do it, and I sold them on it. And it took some selling. It was one of the more exciting and challenging experiences I’ve ever had, to be able to write for a symphony orchestra, plus do all of this electronic stuff. I had the prototype of the Prophet-10 voice synthesizer. It hadn’t even been released for sale, I believe, at that point. I remember it wouldn’t even stay in tune for more than about 10 or 15 minutes. I had to turn it off, let it cool off, and then reboot it. But for studio work I could use it. And it had some marvelous capabilities. I did small group stuff. I had Eddie Henderson come in, and Mel Martin recorded some things with me. So I had a chance to do virtually everything I loved to do, plus this whole new experience of writing for a symphony orchestra, and going down to L.A. and having this orchestra play, taking the 24-track tapes back to San Francisco and overdubbing on that, and going back to L.A. It was an exhausting 10-week project.

TP: At this point you’re 40 years old and you’re always a practicing psychiatrist.

ZEITLIN: Yeah. I started my psychiatric practice in 1968, after finishing a three-year residency at the Langley-Porter Psychiatric Institute, which is part of the U.C. Medical Center in San Francisco. I’ve been on the clinical faculty since ’68, teaching residents how to do various kinds of psychotherapy, and had a private practice. So at this point, in ’78, I’m ten years out into practice, still teaching at the university, and having this marvelous opportunity to score this film.

TP: Are you one of these people who needs 5 hours of sleep?

ZEITLIN: Actually, if I can get 8, I’m delighted to get 8. But I can get along, at least in short bursts, on less. This was a particularly challenging period. I remember I cut back on my practice 50% for five weeks, had a lot of advance planning so nobody got into any trouble, and I had coverage and everything. But I do remember after this project was over, it had been very exciting, but so arduous. I was working 18-19 hour days. My wife would come down and literally peel me off the piano stool and deposit me in the hot tub to stretch out, put me to bed for a few hours, and I’d get up and do the thing again. As exciting as it was, after all that, and then having to deal with the politics of Hollywood, which almost involved me having to sue the studio in order to get paid my money, I said to myself, “I’ve had my one experience, I’m very lucky, I’m going to quit while I’m ahead.” I had some other offers, and I just shined them on. I never wanted to do it again.

I was very grateful for the opportunity and very pleased that I was able to have a soundtrack album from it, but it did represent a turning point to me in that I wanted to get back to the purity of acoustic music, and I really haven’t done any major projects with electronics since. I’ve just been focusing on the acoustic piano and acoustic situations. What I found, to my pleasant surprise, was that all the years of playing other keyboards and dealing with electronic instruments and synthesizers had opened my ears in some way that I was able to get a lot more nuance out of the acoustic piano than ever before. So that was an unexpected dividend. A lot of people have had just the opposite experience, that playing multiple keyboards with different degrees of heaviness of touch, messes up their acoustic piano playing. But I didn’t have this experience. So since 1978, I’ve been focusing primarily on solo, duo and trio playing, with an occasional quartet of acoustic music basically.

TP: It sounds that at a certain point you got very much into John Coltrane’s harmonic system circa 1959-60-61, and you also deal quite a bit with Ornette Coleman’s music. Could you talk about the impact of that hypermodernism, if we can call it that, on you at the point when it was coming out? Non-pianistic influences obviously.

ZEITLIN: That’s a good question, because very rapidly, the major influences for me became non-pianistic. I think most players start off with their major influences being on their own instrument, but they may then branch out. Not inevitably, but I think it’s a natural tendency to broaden one’s horizons. For me it really ended up that the major influences, if I had to look back, were non-pianistic influences. Miles, Trane, Ornette, George Russell. Those would be absolutely tops on my list.

Miles’ incredible sense of pulse and melodic elegance, never a wasted note, never a cliche, always pushing the edge. I was tremendously drawn to him.

Coltrane, it was like being shot out of a cannon, listening to him. He was totally ripping the fabric of jazz apart. Sometimes I’d listen to him and feel like I was watching a terrier shake a rat. It was incredibly exciting music. It was like being at the center of a cyclone, listening to Trane in his exploratory earlier period, his harmonic period when he was developing what some people have called a kind of vertical chromaticism. I was tremendously drawn to that.

George Russell’s writing and ways of thinking about music were tremendously important to me. I never formally studied the Lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization. But in 1963, when I was a resident at Columbia University for this fellowship (that’s when I met John Hammond), I also hung out with George, studied with him, and it was more a kind of mentorship. We would hang out, talk about music, play with each other. He was tremendously encouraging to me, and I think I could make a remark…

I think it’s often notable when people talk about their careers, that there are nodal points where the encouragement of a valued mentor or authority is extraordinarily helpful. I remember three points in my career where this happened. The first was Billy Taylor. He came out to the house with his trio when I was probably a sophomore or freshman in high school, invited by my parents. We had dinner, and my little fledgling trio played for them. [END OF SIDE] …[he said] there was no reason why I couldn’t do both of them, and talking about the hard life of a full-time working jazz musician. So his encouragement was priceless.

Then I remember George’s encouragement in 1963, before I even began to record. Then after I made my first trio album for Columbia, called Cathexis, I had read a Blindfold Test that Bill Evans had done for Downbeat where they played a track from Flute Fever, the first album I did with Jeremy Steig, and he was very complimentary about my playing. So I figured, well, I’ll give Bill a call and I’ll see if he’s willing to listen to this record and give me a critique and see if he has any suggestions. I went over and met him for the first time, found him utterly gracious, a gentle man, totally noncompetitive. He was very secure in his music and didn’t have any trouble being generous to somebody else. Basically what he told me was, “Look, I don’t have any suggestions other than just keep doing your thing — follow your music.” That was extraordinarily helpful and encouraging to me at that point, too.

I think of those three guys at those points in my life as being very important moments.

TP: Finally, the impact Ornette Coleman had on you at the time.

ZEITLIN: When I first heard Ornette, I just loved that music. I was in college at the time. I think the first thing of his I heard was The Shape of Jazz To Come, and I just thought that was marvelous stuff. I’d always enjoyed since I was 2 or 3 years old free improvisation! So here were guys doing it in jazz and making a whole form, a whole life out of it. I thought it was terrific.TP: Is there anything within what I was talking about that you felt I neglected?

ZEITLIN: I think we covered a lot of ground. Just thinking in terms of all the parameters of what would be useful selfishly to me in a liner note, I would hope, though it’s always nice for an artist to imagine that everybody who will buy the album knows who he is, there hopefully will be some people who may hear me for the first time on the air, and say, “Gee, I’d like pick up that CD” and they get it… So if you would be willing to establish some of my credentials in context of the liner notes, the stuff that’s highlighted in the third paragraph of the bio.

TP: Last night I did a search on you, and two things popped out. One thing was a blindfold test that Leonard Feather did with Thelonious Monk. Monk wasn’t listening to anything anyone was playing unless it was an interpretation of Monk, and at the end of the Blindfold Test he played him “Carole’s Garden.” This was after Monk had pointedly gone to the toilet while Leonard Feather played an Oscar Peterson trio thing. Monk was listening and said, “Yeah, that piano player knows what’s happening! He’s a player! He’s on a Bobby Timmons kick, and that can’t be bad.” Then I noticed a Marion McPartland interview where she said your technique in playing was so fantastic when you duetted that she felt like a tidal wave was washing over her. She’s a very gracious person, but not prone to compliments such as that.

How much time do you have now and how much need do you have now to practice? Is technique something that’s innate in you from having played the piano for so long? Do you have to practice a great deal to keep up your technique? If so, how do you find the time to do that?

ZEITLIN: I do try to get to the piano every day, not so much out of a sense of duty to the instrument, but I am just called to it. I want to get my hands on the keyboard and I want to get into music. Because I have played for so long, I have a certain technical base that endures even during periods where I’m not able to play as much as I would like. I’ve never been drawn to the playing of technical exercises. I think the way I build whatever technique I had initially was from always pushing myself to play classical pieces that were somewhat beyond my current technical capability, and the act of trying to get those pieces together helped me garner new technical skills. Now when I go to play, usually I’m just going to improvise, or with an ear towards possible composition. Very often when I play I just have a tape recorder rolling in case something comes up that I’ll want to refer to later. I want to be free from the tyranny of having to remember everything I play in case I want to notate it later, and so the tape recorder takes care of that and I can let the music flow as best I can and just sort of get out of the way. Doing that certainly keeps my fingers lubricated, and it really nourishes my soul just to be with music. Every time I sit down at the keyboard I remind myself of how profoundly grateful I am to be able to play. And I think that kind of attitude has also helped me at moments where I am in danger of being derailed by intrusive thoughts of some kind. Let’s say getting ready to play a concert, and I’m on the road and begin to think about, “Gee, did I really make that plane reservation” or “Did I pack such-and-such?” or “What about my passport?” I start getting bothered by this things. I just gentle myself out of that by reminding myself of, in fact, how grateful I am to be able to play. So it becomes kind of an internal mantra that I will invoke at times when I could be distracted. This could even happen at a millisecond of playing, in the moment of improvisation.

I think it’s a challenge all improvisers face, is how do you stay in the zone? It’s certainly a challenge that athletes face and write about. I’ve played tennis for many years and follow the sport, so a lot of my observations of the parallels of sports and improvisation came from playing tennis and watching tennis and listening to tennis players in interviews talk about their game. The challenge of staying in that flow experience, or, as Arthur Ashe put it, “being in the zone,” is a tremendous one. And how do you wipe away your memory of the stupid shot you just dumped into the net at an important point in the match? How do you make this next point absolutely new? The same thing is in the line of improvisation. If I stumble for a moment, if I find myself playing an alternate idea rather than what I was reaching for, am I going to get involved in some self-castigation or a burst of embarrassment, or will I allow myself simply to let it go and be in the moment for this next millisecond of play? I have found at times just that gentle reminder of the gratitude of being with music has a tremendously therapeutic effect for me. And I have found actually in my work with patients who are involved in the creative arts, particularly creative performance arts, that talking with them about that has been extremely helpful for the. In my role as a psychiatrist, using that concept has turned out to be extremely helpful for them, because they end up actually thinking about that and using that, and it centers them in their work.

TP: Tell me a bit about your practice. You mentioned that a couple was cancelling… Do you do many different areas of therapy?

ZEITLIN: Yes, I do. I can tell you a little bit about what I don’t do. I don’t do hospital psychiatry. I don’t actively engage in psychological or psychiatric research. I don’t have time for that, so I am engaged in a research group for the last 25 years that studies psychotherapy research. I don’t work with very young children, and I don’t do any administrative psychiatry. Long ago, I realized that if I wanted to be involved in a really organic, passionate way in two fields, I had to be realistic with myself about what aspects of those two careers I could involve myself in with the necessary dedication and intensity to get back and to be able to give what I wanted. So I pared away these areas I just mentioned in psychiatry, and decided what I wanted to focus on was doing psychotherapy and teaching psychotherapy — that that’s where my heart really lies in the psychiatry field. So what I do is focus on intensive outpatient psychotherapy, and work with individuals, couples, and people in groups. On occasion in past years, I’ve worked with whole families, but I don’t do that any more. I tend to work with people for more than a year at a time, some people for many years, if they’re really involved in in-depth explorations of their lives. And I find it endlessly fascinating. If I had been a surgeon, I can’t imagine what it would be like to do my three-thousandth appendectomy and to infuse it with new excitement. But as much as it’s true that there are common themes that endlessly repeat in the human life cycle that one hears as you do this work, every person’s experience and presentation of this is unique, so that it really never gets old. So every opportunity to sit down with a patient in my office again is a parallel opportunity for me to be grateful for the trust that this person is placing in me, grateful for the opportunity to try to understand another human being and to be helpful.

TP: So it’s not so dissimilar from improvising. There’s a set of forms that repeat in certain ways, but the context is infinitely different, as is the context and vibration… Not to stretch the theme too far.

ZEITLIN: Well, I think that there are tremendous parallels. We were talking yesterday about this merger experience and empathy, and that that and the whole idea of communication is a tremendous parallel between the two fields. The idea of improvisation holds. The main difference is that in my psychiatric office, I am the accompanist. I am trying to help the patient solo in the best possible way they can, to tell their story. At times it requires a little added embellishment, the addition of a semicolon or a couple of hyphens or placement of a period or a clarification or a sidebar. That’s my function, is to help them feel that it’s as safe as possible to go into areas of their life that they might not otherwise be able to investigate. When I’m accompanying another soloist on the bandstand, the role is really quite parallel. The biggest difference is that there are times when I am soloing for long periods of time on a stage, and I’m not doing that in my office with patients.

TP: Let’s run down the tunes one to ten.

ZEITLIN: All right. I haven’t given this any advance thought; this is right off the top of my head.

TP: The title track would seem to be emblematic of your philosophy that music is a blessing.

ZEITLIN: Yes, I thought it was an awfully nice tune to use for the title. The first time I ever heard that tune was from George Shearing very early in my experience of beginning to learn how to play jazz. I don’t remember what album it was that he played it with his quintet, but it was one of his early MGM albums. I always loved the piece. I’d never played it, except for a duo recording with Charlie haden for ECM in the early ’80s. It was a piece that Charlie always loved, and we approached it as a vehicle for him to solo on. Then when I was getting material ready for this date, I said, gee, it really would be nice to revisit this piece in a trio context and really play on it. It’s interesting, as many tunes as Buster Williams has played over the years (you can imagine, there’s virtually nothing he’s not heard), for some reason he had never heard this piece. He was very intrigued getting into it, and then of course he played his ass off on it.

We had agreed there would be a little vamp at the end of this piece on a particular chord that we would use to just ride out the piece. I remember this was just a first take, and we did it, and we got into I think this delicious end vamp where there’s all kinds of time being played simultaneously, and just being overlaid and going in and out of phase with each other, and I found it so delicious to play on. When it was over, we looked at each other and said, “Well, we sure don’t need to play another take on this one.”

TP: Was most of this record like that?

ZEITLIN: Yes, that was very much the flavor of the project.

TP: “They Can’t Take That Away From Me” has been done by numerous people, but what’s your association?

ZEITLIN: Actually the pull to do that piece was really suggested a few months earlier, when I was asked to participate in a Gershwin concert celebration. I sat down and thought about, well, if I’m going to do some Gershwin pieces, what would I really like to do. So I began to approach that tune and “The Man I Love” at that point. I always like, when I approach a standard, to accept it as a challenge to be faithful to the original spirit of the piece, but to allow myself to approach it in a way that might breathe some fresh life into it. That often involves not only reshaping it a little bit structurally, but most often reharmonizing it. I have felt often when musicians approach reharmonization, they can get seduced by possibilities, and at its worst it becomes an exercise in how clever the musician can be. And often, the tune gets lost, or it becomes so cluttered with reharmonized material that it becomes almost a logjam of material. So for myself, I try to keep those pitfalls in mind, but allow myself to just see where the tune might go in a new way.

In the case of this tune, “They Can’t Take That Away From Me,” I didn’t do an awful lot of reharmonization, and actually there’s relatively little. What I did is really, in terms of the arrangement, move us through a lot of different approaches to the material. We state the head, then I play some solo piano on it and allowed myself to cast a nod in Art Tatum’s direction, then at the end of the solo piano which involves a little bit of stride influenced material, to bring Al in for a piano-drum duet, which I’ve always loved to do with drummers, and which he got into just beautifully. Then we bring in the whole trio. When the bass comes in, another level of excitement is added, then we’re burning on the tune for a while, and Buster takes a great solo. The arrangement has a kind of arch form, because as the more double-time part ends, we move back into the original approach of the head of the tune from the beginning. So in a way, it does form a lot of arch.

TP: I think I was thinking of that particular performance when I asked you about your experience with Ahmad Jamal’s music.

ZEITLIN: I don’t really count Ahmad as one of my influences.

TP: And I’m not going to try to make him one!

ZEITLIN: But I would certainly underline the comment I made yesterday. I’ve heard so many people, and I’ve tried to be as porous as I can, and take stuff in. It’s one of the things I worry about when I write a new composition. After I write it and start playing it, and it becomes familiar to me, then I start to say, “Unh-oh, where might I have inadvertently taken this from?” I’ve talked to a lot of jazz composers who go through pangs of that and say, “Unh-oh!” In a sense, nothing is totally original. How could it be? But you hope that you’ve had enough of an aesthetic filter and enough of your own voice has developed over the years that it really emerges as your own.

TP: In your professional experience, you haven’t done very much playing for singers, have you?

ZEITLIN: No, not an awful lot. I don’t think I’ve ever recorded an album with a singer. I did one album with a singer that hasn’t been released, a wonderful singer named Susie Stern who wrote the lyrics to “Quiet Now,” which is probably my most well-known composition, courtesy of Bill Evans, who just kept recording it and recording it! It was so flattering that he never seemed to get tired of it. He kept it in his repertoire for about 25 years. So Susie finally wrote a lyric that I could accept for that tune, and I did an album with her where she sings, and it’s just beautiful.

TP: I ask the question because so many pianists paid the rent by accompanying singers for long periods. But you always seem to have had a trio thing going on for yourself and sustained it.

ZEITLIN: Yes. If I had been a full-time musician having to put bread on the table with it, I might have had to do a number of projects like that. Maybe some of them I might not have liked. But that is one of the privileges I’ve experienced because of having two careers, is that I’ve really never had to do anything musical that didn’t really call to me. I’ve been very lucky that way.

TP: You’ve been blessed in that way, too. Another point in addressing the American Songbook. Are you a lyrics man? Are you thinking of lyrics, internalizing them, or is it more the abstract sound of the song?

ZEITLIN: It’s more of the latter. I’ve read a number of musicians who feel it’s somehow crucial to know the lyric, and almost “How could not and play the tune?” But in fact, most of these tunes are written music first, lyrics second, and my allegiance is to the composer, really, not the lyricist, although certainly the lyrics of some tunes end up embedded in my psyche, and I do find myself hearing fragments of them. Certainly I hear a lot of Sinatra in my head when I hear any of these tunes that he’s recorded because I’m so totally taken with him.

TP: You’re a Sinatra man.

ZEITLIN: I am a Sinatra man in terms of male vocalists. I would say my favorite female vocalists over the years have been Sarah Vaughan, Jackie Cain and Elis Regina. Those names pop into my head. Probably an unusual trio of names to list together.

ZEITLIN: That’s a tune that I first heard Billie Holiday do, and I have to list her with those other three. Of course, she’s in the top echelon for me. That was my first experience with the piece. I couldn’t right now tell you the lyric to that piece, but that’s where I first heard it. That’s another tune that I reharmonized a bit, and I love to play it. I’ve been playing it for years, played it as a solo, in duo situations, and in trios, but I don’t think I ever had a chance to record it before. There were a number of occasions when it was on the roster of possibilities but somehow it didn’t get done. So I was happy to get this take done with Buster and Al, and it had just the feeling I wanted. The tenderness and yearning that’s somehow inherent in that melody and in the structure really comes through.

TP: “There and Back” is your first of two compositions here. It seems your two most famous compositions were recorded by the time you were 26 or 27, which would be “Quiet Now” and “Carole’s Garden.” Is composition intertwined with the notion of improvising for you? You mentioned that you composed some tunes back when you had the Cool Tones as a kid.

ZEITLIN: Yes, I was composing literally at age 2 or 3. It’s always been a part of my music, and I’ve always seen improvisation as spontaneous composition. My hope, as part of my own personal aesthetic when I play, is that when I’m improvising there is a sense of a journey, that there is something organic about how it develops. Ideally there would be almost a retrospective feeling of inevitability about how it had proceeded. I don’t claim to reach that all the time, but that’s what I’m aiming at, I think, that it isn’t just a hodge-podge of possibilities or just a pastiche of colors or novelty for its own sake, but that there is something organic and a feeling of intentionality about it.

TP: Is composing a systematic process for you, or is it more of the moment?

ZEITLIN: Of the moment. What happens usually is a few fragments or motifs will develop, and I’ll start working with them, and they’ll start building like crystals build in a solution. There are rare occasions when something has just burst forth totally complete in some Mozartian fashion, but that’s rare for me. I remember one tune that happened like that called “One Time Once,” which wrote itself as I was walking to a surgery lecture in medical school. And there was a tune called “Brazilian Street Dance” which appeared all at once when I was working on a project for Paul Winter’s label, Living Music. But what happens generally is that a section of a piece appears, or even a thematic idea that is like the beginning of crystallization or a seed from which a composition grows.

There’s basically two sections to “There and Now.” The way we approach it once we’re improvising on it is that the A-section has more of a feeling of walking jazz time or more that kind of approach to it; the B-section has various kinds of funk or eighth-note/double-note feel on it. I like the movement back and forth between those two feelings. Harmonically the way it’s organized just happens to be a roadmap that appeals to me. In many ways, I think of when I’m setting up pieces to be played by a group… I’m sort of setting up a roadmap that we can loosely follow to get from one destination to the other. But there’s all kinds of possibilities for alternate routes, and I hope that they will be taken and I hope that I’ve set up some interesting roadblocks and detour signs along the way that will be challenging to myself and to my fellow musicians who are approaching the piece. This piece has a number of opportunities like that, which I think brought out some interesting music.

TP: I’m not familiar with “I’m All Smiles.” Who wrote it?

ZEITLIN: A guy named Leonard. I think it was from a show. I think the first time I seriously listened to that piece was on Barbra Streisand’s People album years ago for Columbia, which is my favorite album she’s ever done. It had some fabulous arranging by Peter Mats(?). It’s Streisand at her best. It’s most free of the over-emotionality and stuff that she can fall prey to. The purity of her voice and the feeling..it’s glorious. And she sings this piece on it, and I’ve always loved it, and again, I was thinking about, “Well, what might I do for this album?” I realized, “Well, I’ve never actually played that piece; why not get into it?” So I did, and reharmonized it just a bit because the piece is so beautiful it doesn’t need much help. We just approached it as a piece we could play and improvise on. I think it unfolds in a very relaxed way.

TP: Your “Cousin Mary” continues a line of Coltrane interpretations from that ’59-’60-’61 period of Coltrane. I was listening to your solos on “Lazy Bird” and of “Fifth House,” which were real virtuoso turns, and I guess this one is very virtuosic, but a restrained, playful virtuosity, dancing through it and deconstructing it. I was impressed with the ambiance of that interpretation. Perhaps we can reprise some of your comments yesterday about your response to Coltrane.

ZEITLIN: Well, I remember my response to the whole Giant Steps album when it first appeared; it was a pivotal album for me. I was going away on a fishing trip where I wasn’t going to be near much of civilization for a while, and I actually went into a little record store that was near this fishing town. I rebought the album and made a deal with the record store owner that I could park it with him, and that probably a couple of times in the next two or three weeks, while I was on this fishing trip, I would be needing to come in and hear it. So that album was precious to me. I’d played “Cousin Mary” before as a duo. What I wanted to do again is certainly be respectful to Coltrane, but allow myself to experiment with the tune and its possibilities, so I did reharmonize the head, as you can hear. Then we really approached it as a blues that you can do anything you want with, and this is what happened on that day. There is quite a bit of deconstructing of the harmonic structure of the blues at various points in the improvisation. I felt that Al and Buster were totally up for it. We took it into some I thought rather unusual spaces that were very exciting and intriguing, and I thought that the overall rhythmic drive of the piece was never lost. I liked trading sixes with Al; it just kind of happened, and worked out, I thought, very nicely.

“Triste” is a Jobim tune, a tune I first heard Elis Regina do in an album called Elis and Tom with Jobim playing and his arrangements. I just love that album (it’s one of my all-time favorite Brazilian albums), and I love that piece. I wanted a bossa-nova, and I’d never played this tune nor recorded it, and so we did it. That tune I felt required no reharmonization from me. We play it basically just as Jobim wrote it.

“Canyon” is a minor-bluesoid construction. It has an unusual little melody the way it’s placed. It’s a lot of fun to play. I thought we just got into it and went on a journey with it.

“I Fall In Love Too Easily” is a ballad I’ve loved for many years. I can’t remember who I first heard do it; I remember hearing Miles do it in the early ’60s. But I had only started to play it in the last decade or so, in duo or trio formats. I don’t believe I’d ever recorded it. This is a ballad that’s full of all kinds of feelings, and I think we really took our time with it, and it unfolds and has this kind of organic feel in terms of how the improvisation developed which I am looking and striving for. It also happened on the ballad “For Heaven’s Sake,” that there is a real organic journey.

TP: Finally, “The Man I Love” which is iconic Gershwin.

ZEITLIN: Again, I tried to organize this in terms of the arrangement in ways to explore different kinds of things we could do as a trio. I was hoping to see how deep and how broad we could go in this weekend we were going to play together. It starts with a brief free improvisation on the piano which sets up a mood, then the melody gets stated and the trio comes in and organizes around it. There’s a big of reharmonization in the structure of the piece, and then there is a vamp figures quite prominently in this piece that serves as I think a very exciting springboard into improvisational overlays. I get involved in doing this, and then eventually at the end of the piece a kind of climatic session where Al starts soloing over the vamp while Buster and I state it. Then we ride out the piece on that vamp.

TP: Is the program in the sequence you recorded it in?

ZEITLIN: No. I’d say that would be an extraordinarily rare event. You play the pieces, you see what you’ve been able to harvest, then you figure how it would be most listenable when put together.

TP: And this is the path you’ve followed from your beginnings, a mix of interesting standards, some originals, and some of what are called jazz standards as well.

ZEITLIN: That’s absolutely true. I’ve always tended on these projects to program for maximum variety, to sort of reflect what I would do in a concert.

TP: You came up in Chicago at the same time as Andrew Hill, Herbie Hancock, [Eddie Harris], many of the people you mentioned. I’m wondering if you see any particular Chicagoistic qualities in your approach to music. People who came up then in Chicago talk about the ethos of Chicago musicians being individuality, that stamping your own sound and making your own statement was of paramount importance if you were going to be a respected musician in Chicago. Apparently you were up 1960. Your bio says you played professionally there, and the people you played with were individualists of the first order. So the impact of Chicago on who you are as a musician.

ZEITLIN: Not having grown up anywhere else, I can’t compare it! As you say this, I flash back to remembering that there was a lot of value placed on somebody having their own thing. There was a lot of respect; people would say, “Yeah, he’s got his own thing; he’s really doing something different; listen too that.” That certainly is something I can recall.

TP: But as far as forming your ideas, this sort of just happened.

ZEITLIN: Yes.

TP: As a teenager, once you started being able to drive is when you started going to clubs in Chicago?

ZEITLIN: Well, they knew I was so utterly galvanized by this and that it was so deeply embedded in my psyche that it was important to just encourage and allow this to happen. They had a tremendous amount of trust in me, that I wasn’t for example using drugs of any kind or having problems with alcohol, and that I could be around a subculture like that without being involved in it. And indeed, their trust was not misplaced, and I was trustworthy, and I was able to take this opportunity for this many-year informal apprenticeship in the music that was just priceless. Because in those days there were no formal jazz schools. This was the one had to learn it. I spent hours and hours listening to records and rehearsing with people in high school and with other people in Chicago, and then going and listening, and trying to get chances to sit in and get pointers from people, and collaring somebody after the gig and say, “Man, sit down with me for a minute here; how did you voice such-and-such?” By osmosis trying to absorb as much of this art form as I could.

TP: Did you check out Chris Anderson at all during this time?

ZEITLIN: Yes, indeed. That’s interesting. Very few people even know about Chris. But when I said I would collar somebody to show me a voicing, I was exactly thinking of a couple of experience I had with Chris where I said, “Chris, I’m not letting you go home. You’ve got to sit down. How did you voice this thing, man?” He showed me some stuff. I remember just a few remarks he made to me way-way back then that were very-very helpful. He is an unsung hero, a wonderful musical mind, and everyone who was around in Chicago then knows of Chris and speaks of Chris. Herbie Hancock talks of Chris, and Bobby Cranshaw remembers Chris fondly. Chris is prototypic of the kind of musician I would try to collar.

TP: So we could call him an influence.

ZEITLIN: Yes, he was an early harmonic influence.

TP: And perhaps a link between you and Herbie Hancock in some ways, as the two of you are roughly contemporaries.

ZEITLIN: I never heard Herbie play until I heard him on record with Miles. I never met him or heard him. But we certainly grew up around the same period.

TP: It’s fascinating to me. You were very young and probably one of the few white kids who would be on that scene, and hanging with some people who had serious addiction problems, like Nicky Hill or Wilbur Ware or Wilbur Campbell. I don’t know that most people who know you know much about Chicago, or how heavy the musical scene was in Chicago at that time.

ZEITLIN: Again, having nothing to compare, all I can say is that I felt fortunate that there was so much going on and so much excitement that generally I found musicians so gracious and so willing to show me stuff and to give me a chance to play… I can’t say that it was always that way; there are instances where you try to talk your way into getting a chance to play at a jam session and it doesn’t happen because they don’t know you. I certainly had experiences like that. But overall, it was a very generous spirit in Chicago. And also, I didn’t experience much Crow Jim flavor at all — only very rarely. I got some of that in New York when I was sitting in at some places in 1963, when I was on a fellowship. Got a little feeling of that and a little feeling of the ethnocentricity of New York. But I didn’t feel that in Chicago growing up at all. I didn’t feel racial tension at all! I very often was the only white person in some of these clubs late at night, and I had no cause to feel like I was an intruder, that there was hostility coming my way or that I was in any kind of danger. It just wasn’t happening.

The genesis of my two careers is the tremendous support I got from my parents, Nathaniel and Roslyn Zeitlin. One anecdote I think will give you an idea of how supportive they were to me in both ways. When I began to really get involved in eighth grade in high school and starting to play jazz, they would go to New York, where they typically would go every year because they loved theater, and they would go to all their shows, all their plays, and afterwards, even though neither had been a jazz fan at all prior to my interest, they would go to all the jazz clubs where all my heroes were playing, they would listen to their music, and they would get these players to jot down little notes to me on cocktail napkins! I remember one from Marion McPartland, and one from George Shearing, and one from Billy Taylor on one occasion.

TP: Bird?

ZEITLIN: No, not Bird. I only got to hear Bird play live once in my life, in a very unlikely context — playing in front of Stan Kenton’s orchestra. He was looking very dissipated. But it was a thrill just to hear him play.

Today is the 81st anniversary of the birth of David “Fathead” Newman, a master practitioner of the saxophone family and the flute, whose sound helped stamp Ray Charles’ various units during the ’60s and ’70s and whose own leader career is documented on three dozen or so recordings. I had an opportunity to write the liner notes for one of those dates, Keep The Spirit Singing, and to interview Mr. Newman both on WKCR and for my first-ever DownBeat feature, a joint interview with him and his long-time saxophone partner Hank Crawford in 1998. I’ve posted the liner notes and the unedited transcript of the interview.

David Newman (Notes for Keep The Spirit Singing):

In the exciting times directly following World War II, when David Newman was a young man in Dallas, Texas, interstates, jet planes, mall culture and television did not exist. People from different regions did things their own way. For black tenor saxophone players from the wide open spaces, that meant cultivating the larger than life sound of the kind projected by luminaries like Herschel Evans, Illinois Jacquet, Buddy Tate, Arnett Cobb and John Hardee on the popular recordings by big bands and jump bands of the day. As much Newman and his peer group — Ornette Coleman, King Curtis, Booker Ervin, Dewey Redman — absorbed the startling modernist postulations of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie during those years, they never strayed far from the elemental principle that the horn is an analog for the human voice. The sound was of the essence.

Then, musicians learned by jumping into the fray. Initially an alto saxophonist, Newman attended high school with future luminaries like Cedar Walton and James Clay and jammed on up-to-the-minute bebop with a teenage Ornette Coleman. He played in bands led by a pair of little-recorded legends, the alto saxophonist Buster Smith, who was Charlie Parker’s earliest and primary influence from Kansas City days, and the tenor saxophonist Red Connor, who Coleman cites as a primary mentor. We’ll digress with Newman’s comments on both.

“Red Connor was a very fine musician with a sound somewhere in between Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons, or Wardell Gray and Dexter Gordon, with a little Don Byas or Chu Berry in there,” he recalls. “Booker Ervin listened quite a bit to him, as you can hear in Booker’s playing. I don’t know of any other players that had Red’s particular style and his sound; he was very much his own person and didn’t particularly pattern himself on any of the forerunner tenor players. Red knew all the Bebop tunes, he was playing Bebop always, and I got a thorough training by playing with the Red Connor band when I was in high school.

“At that time Buster Smith had moved back to Dallas, and he had one of the best big bands in the city. One night I sneaked into a club to hear his band play, and he gave me a chance to sit in, which was a very big thing for me; soon I started to play with him. Buster had an advanced approach, different from most musicians of his era. He had a huge sound on the alto, and his execution was superb; he could get over the instrument really fast — he knew it backwards. His phrasing and harmonic concept were modern, ahead of its time. He was a self-taught musician with perfect pitch, and he could sit and write arrangements while we were riding up and down the highways — he wouldn’t have to be anywhere near a piano. He would write out full arrangements, and on a jump blues that he wanted to extend he would set up different riffs for the saxophones, then someone in the brass section would set the riffs for the trumpets and trombones. They called Buster ‘Prof,’ short for Professor, because he had this air about him, as this very well-educated professor.

“Buster put together small combos for the road or to back up people like T-Bone Walker and others who came through Dallas. Around 1951-52, Buster organized a group with Leroy Cooper and myself to do a tour with Ray Charles, who was singing and playing the alto. We played mostly the southern states out to California. I had met Ray a little earlier, when I was playing with Lloyd Glenn, a piano player with a hit record called ‘Chickaboo,’ and Ray was with Lowell Fulsom, who featured him playing piano and singing. We were traveling on the road at black theaters and dance halls with a package that also included Big Joe Turner and T-Bone Walker. Sometimes Ray sounded similar to Charles Brown, sometimes he sounded like King Cole, even sometimes like T-Bone Walker, but you could hear his thing starting to come out. I think Ray’s recording of ‘I Got A Woman,’ when he started to inject a Gospel feel, is where the real Ray Charles started to emerge.”

Newman blossomed as a star sideman with Charles’ brilliant small band from 1954 to 1964, but he’s never felt aesthetically encumbered by his past. “Ray gave us a lesson in music appreciation,” Newman told “Downbeat” a few years back. “Before I encountered Ray, my only real love was jazz and bebop. With Ray I learned how to respect and admire and love all other forms of music. This music is an incredible gift. I want to expand my mind and expand the music as it comes through me, put my stamp on it, my feeling, and see what comes out. I want to explore other areas, bridge the generations. You can’t close yourself off as music moves on.”

Now 67, Newman sustains that attitude of freshness and exploration throughout Keep The Spirit Singing. Performing on flute and tenor and alto saxophones, he sculpts his sound with refined nuance through a broad matrix of emotion and rhythm-timbre, enhanced by an ensemble of creative veteran improvisers who know the Old Master well enough not to have to waste time getting acquainted in the studio.

Pianist John Hicks spent his formative years in St. Louis and Atlanta, and knows intimately the language of blues and church forms; his distinctive voicings and ebullient beat fit Newman like a custom-made suit. “I’ve known John a long time, and he’s been one of my favorite pianists for many years,” Newman says. “He knows where I’m going, and we blend as a very good combination.”

On three selections Newman pairs off with trombonist Steve Turre, a fellow Charles alumnus who coaxed the master into playing four tunes on his recently issued In The Spur of The Moment [Telarc]. “I like the blend of the tenor saxophone and trombone,” Newman says. “Ray’s standard instrumentation was two trumpets and three reeds, but in the ’50s when we played the Apollo and the Howard Theater, he would use the trombone. I wanted Steve because he gets that wide-open, full sound.”

Newman first met Turre and bassist Steve Novosel when both were working with Rahsaan Roland Kirk, another devotee of extracting a full sonic palette from an array of horns. “I first met Rahsaan in Chicago, when I was playing with Ray,” Newman digresses. “Rahsaan was just getting his start, and had come over to Atlantic Records. He would hang out at the Sutherland Hotel, where we stayed quite often in Chicago.”

Returning to the subject at hand, he continues: “Steve Novosel is a solid, great player. I depend on him a lot for his ability to carry the melody.”

Like Novosel, trapsetter Winard Harper works frequently with Newman. The relationship began when Harper hired Newman for a record date a few years back; the in-demand 38-year drummer plays with idiomatic precision and imaginative flair throughout. Joining him for several tunes is percussion wizard Steve Kroon, who dots the i’s and crosses the t’s with customary panache.

Guitarist O’Donnell Levy composed and arranged the Caribbean-flavored title track and the samba-esque “Asia Beat,” which frame the session, while Turre offers the pungent “Mellow-D For Mr. C.” “I like the way the changes move in the tune,” Newman says of the latter, which refers to Ray Charles. Does the Caribbean beat relate to the 12/8 feel Newman played over 45 years ago? “Yes, it does. It’s a very natural feeling. A lot of people today seem to like that feel, and I am one of those people.”

Newman’s “Cousin Esau” showcases his vocalized flute sound. “I adapted some of the things that Eddie Harris and Les McCann used to do with this particular beat,” Newman says. “No one has a name for it, but I call it the Listen-Here beat. Most drummers that I ask know what I mean. It’s a four-beat rim-shot figure played on the snare drum; most people can groove to it. I thought of the flute when writing this tune. Through the years I’ve tried to get an identifiable flute sound, and somehow it’s starting to come together. It’s a very earthy, open sound. When I was a kid I used to blow across a Dr. Pepper or R.C. Cola soda bottle to get a sound; after I started playing the flute, I found it was a good way to get a good open sound.”

Newman wrote “Karen, My Love” for his wife; his bravura performance comes right out of the Gene Ammons tradition of heart-on-the-sleeve balladry using only the choicest notes. “John Hicks helped me flesh this out,” Newman reveals. “I knew exactly what I wanted, but John could put meaning to what I had in mind.”

Newman reprises “Willow Weep For Me,” which he recorded years ago for Atlantic, taking it here with a 3/4 feel. It’s a showcase for his bright, declamatory alto saxophone style, and shows that his early experience with Buster Smith “has stuck with me all through the years.”

John Hicks composed “Life,” one of his many lovely waltzes, with Newman’s flute in mind. “It has a natural feel,” Newman says. “John wanted me to play it as I felt it fit me.”

Newman is no stranger to the Latin sound that inflects much of the proceedings. “I guested many times with Machito’s band, and later on with other Latin groups, and that gave me the feel of the Latin beat as well as some things coming out of Cuba,” he notes. “The jazz feel with the African-Latin influence and the European influence is part of what jazz is all about, especially these days — it’s all come together.”

Pushing the envelope remains the animating imperative for Newman, a musician who can retrospect on a career that spans a half-century — 45 years in the spotlight.

“You don’t want to get yourself into a dated position,” says the man whose sound defines soul tenor for several generations. “I like to incorporate the modern approach I hear from the younger players in playing the changes, and I still include some of the things that I played and learned from the veteran musicians when I was young. You take what you have and ride with it, put it all together, and keep moving with the feeling, keep going forward.”

Hank Crawford-David Newman – (3-3-98):

TP: The first question I’ll address to you both is when you were first aware of the other? Hank Crawford, did you first meet David Newman when you came into the Ray Charles band?

HC: Yes, I first met him when I went in Ray’s band. But I was aware of his playing from some records I had heard, solo things he had done with Ray Charles. But the first time we met I’d just joined the band actually.

TP: I’d like to talk to you, Hank, about your path into the Ray Charles band, and I guess we should start from your early years as a musician. When did you start playing music?

HC: I started playing at the age of 9. I started on piano. Piano was my first instrument. I studied three years of private lessons; I guess that must have been at about the age of 6 when I started taking music lessons, and from there I went to the saxophone.

TP: Why did you go to the saxophone from the piano?

HC: My father was in the Service, and when he came back, he’d bought a saxophone with him, which was a C-melody — actually it was a C-melody saxophone. I think he was sort of a frustrated saxophone player himself, but he never did go into it. But he brought the horn, and I was studying piano and still in elementary school. So I still had, I guess, 6th, 7th and 8th grade to go. And once I entered high school in 9th Grade, naturally I wanted to be in the high school band, and piano was a bit much to march with. So I just went to the closet and picked out the horn. I’m self-taught saxophone. I just got a book actually in Ninth Grade and taught myself after I learned the fingering, because I already had a slight knowledge of music from taking piano lessons.

TP: You could read probably, and knew some chords.

HC: Right. And I started playing saxophone in Ninth grade. Then after I taught myself the fingering and stuff, I just kept playing. Later I had lessons on the saxophone, too, but that was in college. That’s when I entered college.

TP: What sort of music program did you have in high school?

HC: Well, it was basically the marching band, a concert band, and a dance band which we called the Rhythm Bombers. It was a 16-piece high school band. Our band director in high school was a trumpet player by the name of Matthew Garrett, who is Dee Dee Bridgewater’s father. Actually, Dee Dee’s given name is Denise Garrett. Her father was Matthew Garrett, and he was my high school band director. We used to play a lot of Woody Herman charts and Count Basie charts, just big band stuff.

TP: Did he have you working outside the high school, like Walter Dyett did in Chicago, got his guys in the union?

HC: Oh yeah. We played a lot of Monday night things, usually on campus. And then we played some things off-campus, which was in local clubs. But even in high school, we were playing major functions.

TP: Had you always been listening to records and other saxophonists?

HC: Yes.

TP: And when did the alto become the horn of choice, or the horn that suited your ear. From the influences that you describe on your bios, you mention Bird, Louis Jordan, Johnny Hodges, Earl Bostic, later Cannonball, they’re all alto players. So I assume that was the primary voice that you heard.

HC: During that period I heard a lot of saxophone players, from Bird to Bostic, Tab Smith, and on up through to Ammons, Sonny Stitt, you know… So really, I can’t say just one more than the other inspired me the most. Because I love to hear musicians play, all saxophone players. I got a bit from each one. But I always liked the sound of the alto, although I did play a little tenor or baritone. But I could express myself more on alto. That seemed to be my voice.

TP: You also mentioned your church experience as being very important for you.

HC: Oh yes.

TP: And it seems to me that the alto saxophone is the sound that’s more commonly inspirational in the church.

HC: Oh yes. I think the alto is very voice-like. I approach the horn vocally, as if I was going to sing. I guess that comes across because of my early beginnings or early roots in the church. That’s where I started when I was playing piano. I used to play for the junior choirs, the senior choirs, prayer meetings. My whole family was really involved in church a lot. If they didn’t play, they were singing. So all my life I was involved in spiritual music.

TP: What was the name of the church you belonged to in Memphis?

HC: Originally, Springdale. Springdale Baptist Church.

TP: That’s where you had your piano lessons, or played piano.

HC: Yes, right there.

TP: Well, we’ll stop with Hank in high school playing with the 16-piece band in high school with Matthew Garrett as the band director, and go through the same process with David Newman. Your path on the saxophone. When you started playing, what the circumstances were, etcetera.

DN: You mean right from the very beginning.

TP: When did you first put a horn in your mouth.

DN: Well, it was the mid-Forties when I first picked up the alto. Like Hank, I started out with the piano. I had a few piano lessons at first, but I didn’t stay with the piano as long as he did. I only had a few lessons, and then right away my friends started calling me a little sissy, so I wanted to pick up a more masculine instrument. So I asked my Mom to get a horn, and I didn’t know exactly what kind of horn. But then I heard Louis Jordan play the alto saxophone, and it just blew me away, and right away I chose the alto — that’s what my Mom bought me. I was still in elementary school, and started taking private lessons from my music instructor, J.K. Miller, who was the band director at Lincoln High School. He taught Cedar Walton and James Clay, alike from Dallas. We called him Uncle Dud. When I started high school I went directly into the band. Uncle Dud was the one that gave me the name “Fathead.” He wanted me to read the music instead of memorizing music like what I was doing, and he called me a fathead in class, and that’s been my nickname until this day.

TP: Unapropos.

DN: [LAUGHS] Unapropos, but nonetheless that’s the way it was, and it’s a trademark by now. I don’t get offended by the name at all, because it goes so far back, and it’s just a nickname anyway.

TP: What sort of music program did he have. Hank Crawford’s describing playing contemporary Basie and Woody Herman charts, a 16-piece band. Did you have something similar to that in high school?

DN: We had something similar to that for the jazz band, some Basie charts, some arrangements by Buster Smith, who was a local alto saxophone player and arranger and composer from Dallas, and also some stock arrangements, which were published orchestrations. I was playing alto for many years, and after about my second year in high school, a friend of mine introduced me to Bird. He brought along a Charlie Parker record, a 78 on Savoy Records, and Bird was playing “Koko,” which was “Cherokee.” I had never heard anything like that before in my life. I was thinking that there was no other player that could play any faster or better than Earl Bostic. Earl Bostic was the man at that time. And when I heard Charlie Parker it just blew my mind away.

From that point on, I fell into the Bebop bag, and I started listening to all the Bebop tunes as they came out. And during that particular time, it was very easy to keep up with all the new tunes that came out, because there weren’t that many. So I would listen to J.J., Diz, Bird, Fats Navarro, Dexter, all the players.

TP: What a lot of people describe is that when these records would come out, their whole little clique of musicians would get together, memorize the solos, and then…

DN: Exactly.

TP: Was that your experience, too, Hank?

HC: yes.

TP: Do you remember your first Bird record?

HC: Maybe not by name, but I can say this. Like David was saying, at that particular time it was the Bebop era that we both came through, you know, and some of the same people he named I really admire. I love Bostic for power. He was a power player. But we all came through all phases of music, from the Blues, Gospel and Jazz… Actually, I was speaking about the spiritual side of music, but we were also playing Bebop. That was the era that we really come through. We always tried to play Bird’s solos, and did play them, note for note!

TP: So you memorized your Bird solos also.

HC: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

TP: I’m going to ask you each about your contemporaries, because you each came up with a small group of distinguished cohorts. In David’s case, you came up with James Clay, Cedar Walton and Ornette Coleman. You’ve mentioned a good story about Ornette, playing in the park.

DN: There was a park in Fort Worth (I forget the name) where we would all gather around the gazebo and play there. I was playing with an older musician there named Red Connor, a very good saxophone player. He never was that well-known because I don’t think he left Texas that much, but at the time he was the leading saxophonist in that area. His sound was more or less between Wardell Gray and Dexter Gordon, and even maybe Don Byas. He was a Bebop player, and he knew all the Bebop tunes. I was playing in Red’s band, and Ornette would come and play. I was playing the alto and Ornette was playing the tenor saxophone when I first met him. We would play all of Bird’s tunes, and we both knew his solos, as well as Sonny Criss and the other alto players. We’d learn these solos note for note, then after we finished playing whatever Bird had played, then it came time to do the individual thing, and this is when Ornette would go Ornette. Then we could hear come in after he would run out of Bird’s solos, then he would go to Ornette! [LAUGHS]

TP: Ornette as we know him today.

DN: Ornette as we know him. It was Ornette. He wasn’t calling it harmolodics at the time, but that’s the direction that he would go into. He would not conform to the chord structure. He would just go completely different, because he had his own conception. His concept was entirely different. We knew he was on his way to being something different. We didn’t know what it was, but we knew it was a different thing happening with Ornette.

TP: Hank Crawford, I can think of two pretty fair saxophonists in your age group, George Coleman and Frank Strozier. Were you all acquainted?

HC: Yes, we were all in high school together. In fact, George and I were in the same class. Frank was a few years behind us, but we were all in the same band. Speaking of local saxophone players, at that time the guy who impressed me the most was a tenor player named Ben Branch, who sounded a lot like Gene Ammons — and I always liked Ammons’ playing. There was a guy who played alto in Memphis who I got my name from, an older man named Hank O’Day — really Hank, not Henry. He was playing in a big band that was led by Al Jackson, who was the father of the drummer Al Jackson from the Stax scene. There was George, and then a few years behind us was Charles Lloyd. There was another guy who played saxophone who sounded very much like Bird… At that time, George Coleman was the king. He was playing all of the Bird stuff.

During that era, we were studying a lot of Bebop. That’s why we went from house to house, to learn all these bad tunes. But basically, our primary function when we would go out to play was the Blues. We’d practice the Bebop all day at each other’s house, but when we had to go out and play, we’d play a lot of Blues, Memphis being the home of the Blues, they say. I walked bars and laid on my back on the floor with people dropping coins in the bell.

I remember listening to Johnny Hodges, and I remember Tab Smith played on “Because of You” that floored me. I like melodies. I really like ballads, and I think I’m most expressive on ballads. I guess that comes from being around vocal music a lot.

TP: You mentioned that starting in the church as well. You mentioned that in your trademark horn arrangements, the horns are the backup singers, you’re the lead singer with the alto.

HC: Yes. I found that to be true when I joined Ray Charles’ band. I started trying to write a little bit when I was in high school, and in Memphis, almost every band that you played with was at least eight pieces, from 8 to 16 pieces, five horns at least. Big bands was a favorite of mine, too; I loved big bands. I even had the opportunity to meet some of the great big band leaders later on in my career.

TP: Lunceford was from Memphis from originally.

HC: Yes, and Gerald Wilson. And later, when I went to school at Tennessee State in Nashville, I had a chance to meet Ellington and Dizzy. They would come and play the homecoming campus gig every year. There would always be a big name. I had an opportunity to meet Charlie Parker three months before he passed in Nashville. I was a senior at Tennessee State, and Bird came through on a show with Stan Kenton, June Christy, Nat Cole. There was a tenor player in Nashville named Thurman Green. [LAUGHS]

TP: You’re laughing.

HC: Well, he was funny. He was funny just as a human being and then he was funny as a player. We used to laugh at his playing. He just played funny, man. He knew Charlie Parker personally. And Bird came through at that particular time with that show we were talking about, and he came down to a little place that I was playing called the El Morocco. I was playing an off-campus gig, and Bird came down there, just hanging out. He didn’t play anything; came with Thurman, his friend. He sat there, and for about two hours, man, after we finished, I had a chance to sit next to him and talk. I don’t know what we were talking about. Just fun things. This was like in December, and he passed in March. That’s about three months.

TP: It sounds to me that the thing you both share is you had thorough high school educations. You got a thorough musical preparation in a lot of ways in high school, and then you were playing functionally on these type of gigs and getting professional experience from a fairly young age. How old were you when you did your first professional gig, whatever amount of money it was?

HC: Actually in high school we were getting paid. Because at that time, at 14 and 15, we were going out playing the dances. The senior players, they were out, too. But at that time, Memphis was full of great musicians, man. Phineas Newborn was there. He was playing at that age, man, and he was just out of sight. So we played all of the R&B gigs and all of the jazz gigs and so forth.

TP: There wasn’t a differentiation between Jazz and other forms of music. It was all one big pot, kind of?

HC: Right. Well, playing Bebop, that was our classroom. That was the study period, you know. But Blues just came as a natural if you were from that part of the country.

TP: I take it that Dallas, Texas wasn’t so dissimilar in terms of the requirements for playing in public, am I right?

DN: My experience in that area was we’d play Bebop in jam sessions, and maybe there was one club or two where we would play together for the door, which wouldn’t be very much money, like the Log Cabin in South Dallas. But you couldn’t earn a living playing Bebop because the people, especially in the Dallas area, they weren’t that interested in Bebop.

TP: What would happen if you might throw that into your playing? Would they be very verbal and vociferous and clear in their displeasure?

DN: Well, the younger people would dance to anything that we played. They were receptive. But the older generations, from the thirties on, they didn’t take too much to Bebop. They would listen for the beat and that sound which they were accustomed to. If it wasn’t Swing from the Big Band area, then it had to be something like Blues or Rhythm-and-Blues, something from a beat there, and the Blues, bluesy tunes. So you had to play the Blues. In order to make any kind of money playing music around the Dallas area and Texas, you had to play the Blues. T-Bone Walker was from Dallas, and I would play gigs and go on gigs. Whenever T-Bone would come through town, I would go on gigs, because Buster Smith usually put bands together to back up T-Bone. Lowell Fulsom lived in Fort Worth, and I’d work with him.

TP: Would you go out with them or just play gigs?

DN: I would go out. My first outing from Dallas was with a piano player named Lloyd Glenn, who had a hit record out called “Chickaboo.” They would have packages on the shows. It would be Lloyd Glenn’s band, Big Joe Turner, T-Bone Walker, Lowell Fulsom, and I was playing with Lloyd Glenn. That was my first outing other than going out backing up T-Bone Walker playing in Buster’s band. But my first outing on the road professionally was with Lloyd Glenn.

TP: Tell me a little bit about Buster Smith, the master of riff arranging. How did you come to meet him?

DN: Well, Buster was well-known. Buster had left Dallas, and he was living in Kansas City. He’d played in the Blue Devils, which was from Oklahoma City, and then with Bennie Moten, and then Basie, and then came back to Texas for various reasons in the ’40s. He was very good arranger and he had control of the alto saxophone. His execution was very good. He was very fast. This is how Bird came to listen. When Bird was very young and later when he was playing with Jay McShann, he’d come over to hear Buster play, because Buster was really getting over the instrument. Buster was a main influence on Charlie Parker more than most people realize.

TP: What were your personal experiences with Buster Smith?

DN: I played many engagements with Buster. He was a very gifted musician. I think he was a self-taught musician. He had perfect pitch. We’d ride up and down the road, and Buster would just sit in the car with his cigar in his mouth. He wasn’t a drinker; he just had a cigar. As a matter of fact, they used to call Buster “Prof,” short for Professor, because he had this air about him, as this very well-educated professor. But he taught himself music, really, and he had this wonderful gift. He could arrange and write without being around any kind of instrument at all from having perfect pitch. I learned so much from Buster.

TP: I don’t know if you recall this from our last encounter, but I showed you a transcript of an interview Buster Smith did for the Oral History Project at the Institute of Jazz Studies, and he said that he had a sextet with you and Leroy Cooper, and that Ray Charles used that band in the very early Fifties, and that was your first encounter with him.

DN: That’s true. Leroy Cooper and I were both from Dallas, and Leroy had been to the Army and was back. When I came to Lincoln High School, Leroy had graduated and was going to a college called Sam Houston, and from there he went to the Army. Buster had a small combo together. He usually kept a big band, but for putting together bands for the road or when people like Ray Charles would come through, Buster would put together these little small groups, and that’s how Leroy Cooper and I came to playing together. Leroy and I also played together behind a guitarist called Zuzu Bollin, who had a record out called “Why Don’t You Eat Where You Slept Last Night” that Leroy and I played on. Yeah, we played on this record, “Why Don’t You Eat Where You Slept Last Night.” Then after that, Leroy left and went out with Ernie Fields’ Big Band, and when he came back… See, Leroy was playing alto. He was originally an alto player. But when he went out with Ernie Fields, Ernie Fields needed a baritone player, and Leroy started playing baritone. When he came back from Ernie Fields’ band, he was playing the baritone. When he was playing alto, he just literally ripped the keys off the alto because he was so fast.

TP: But do you recall the specifics of the linkup between Buster Smith and Ray Charles?

DN: Well, Buster was probably recommended to Ray. Because Ray needed a band to back him up when he came through, and Buster was the man around Dallas. I don’t know what the connection was, who brought them together, but Buster was probably recommended.

TP: What was Ray Charles’ style like at that time insofar as you mentioned.

DN: He sang like Nat Cole, T-Bone Walker, Charles Brown. He hadn’t found his own identity yet; he was still searching. He could sound like probably anyone, but his favorite people were people like Nat Cole, Charles Brown, T-Bone Walker.

TP: I’ll ask Hank Crawford now to talk about your college experiences and your beginnings as a professional musician, which were in college, but entering the fray from that.

HC: Well, as I think about it, there was a route of, say, Memphis, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans, that most road bands were covering at that time. They all came through Memphis, and they used to play at places like the Palace Theater, amateur shows (we called them midnight rambles). There was the Hippodrome, and there was Club Handy which was at that time in Mitchell’s Hotel. They would all come through Memphis. We didn’t have to really go too far to see these people. That was one of the good things about that era. We got a chance to see a lot of the people that we later got to know. A lot of singers would come through town, like Percy Mayfield, but instrumentalists, too. We got a chance to see these people. Sometimes they’d come through maybe with not the full band and pick up locals, and we would always be the ones that would play for these certain entertainers, whether it be… Really, man, it was an era of everything going on. You had tap dancers, comics, shake dancers — shows. We played shows.

TP: And you’d play the whole show.

HC: the whole show.

TP: You’d be playing for the shake dancer, for the tap dancer, for the singer, for the comedians act.

HC: Yeah, for all of it, before the Apollo even entered my mind, you know. That all was happening. It’s a long story; I could think of a million things. But that was part of it in Memphis, among a whole lot of other things. When I left Memphis…

TP: When did you first go out on the road? Do you recollect?

HC: Really, really go out on the road?

TP: Was that at that time, or after?

HC: Most of that time I was basically in Memphis. When I went to Tennessee State, I formed a little group called the Jazz Gents, and we would play locally, and as far as we would get would be Louisville, Kentucky, at the Top Hat, and then we’d get up to Buffalo at the Pine Grill. This was all while I was still in school, so we’d go out during the summer months and play for the summer, that southern route, New Orleans, St. Louis and stuff like that. I was basically a student most of the time, but I had a chance to meet all of these people, because they would come in the locale that we were all based, really.

I had some great teachers at Tennessee State. W.O. Smith was one of my instructors; he’s a bass player who was on the original recording of Coleman Hawkins’ “Body and Soul.” Frank T. Greer was my band director, when Florida A&M and Tennessee State started doing the “hundred steps, 8 to 5…”

TP: Oh, that’s when they started that?

HC: Yes. When that started, FAMU and Tennessee State, you’d just be running down the field almost. Anciel Francisco was my reed teacher. I didn’t start studying saxophones and clarinets and reeds until I got in college.

I played around Nashville, and I met a lot of people. I met Roland Kirk in Nashville, and Leon Thomas, and man, you could go on and on.

But really, I guess my big real-real going out on the road was when Brother Ray came.

TP: Let’s talk about how that happened, for about only the three hundredth time you’ve told the story.

HC: Well, I was still in school, and like I say, I’d heard Ray — “Hallelujah, I Love Her So” and “Drowning In My Own Tears” were some of the first things I heard. I remember I heard something about David. One of the first things I heard him play was the solo he did on “Ain’t That Love.” It knocked me out, man. Actually, I had a couple of buddies who had already joined Ray’s band. There was a trumpet player, John Hunt, and a drummer, Milt Turner, both from Nashville. Anyway, Ray came through Nashville. I think Leroy Cooper, “the Hog,” he had taken a leave of absence, and he was out for a minute, and they suggested to Ray that I would be the person to play that part. I never played baritone in my life. Never. You know, just around the band-rooms fooling around with the instrument.

DN: I took the same route. I came in the band playing baritone.

TP: Well, I think music before it was anything else was functional for you. This was how you were earning your livings basically from the age of 14-15-16 years old.

HC: Yeah, from day one. I never did anything else.

DN: We were both reed players, so we played the reeds.

HC: I happened to be the Student Director on campus. I had a big band at Tennessee State; I was fronting the campus band, a 16-piece band — I was writing then. I was impressed by the sound of Ray’s small band. Actually, in Memphis, we always had eight pieces, and always had that kind of Gospel type of sound. So I kind of knew the feeling. But getting into Ray’s band, it just made it much more better, because I fell into the same kind of groove that I had been raised up with.

So anyway, I went down, didn’t even audition. I don’t think we had a rehearsal that day, because it was just quick notice. I went to the campus band-room, I talked Mr. Greer out of the baritone, told him what it was for, so he agreed, and I took it down to the Club Baron where they were playing. I sat in and played the gig that night, and that was the end of that. Three months later, I got a call from R.C. — or his manager, Jeff Brown at the time — and he asked me if I wanted the job.

I never thought I’d stay as long as I did. I was glad, because I felt the music, and worked a lot, and saw the world. Ray was getting into his thing. He was really beginning to blossom at that time. The period that I’m talking about, when I joined the band…

TP: Do you mean blossom musically or blossom in terms of the breadth of his audience?

HC: The fans. He was really going… I got in the band at a great period, man. I really came in the band at a great period.

TP: Let’s hold that, and I’ll talk to David about his route to Ray Charles so you can catch up to each other on the time line.

DN: Well, I met Ray in ’51, when he was featured with Lowell Fulsom, singing and playing. He had recorded a few singles, and he said that he was going to get his own band. We became friends right away, and I asked him, when he formed his own band to let me know, and that I would love to come play with him. And sure enough, he called me when he formed his band in ’54. We’d played together in ’52 when he was touring around, and we played with Buster, backing him. But when he formed his band in ’54, he called me, and I stayed with the band until 1964.

TP: How did the band evolve from ’54 until Hank joined?

DN: Well, the band just blossomed right away. I started out playing baritone, and Donald Wilkerson was on the tenor. There was a trumpet player from Houston by the name of Joseph Bridgewater, and he knew John Hunt, and Ray needed a second trumpet, so Joseph Bridgewater called John Hunt into the band, and John Hunt in turn called Milt Turner from the band, who was from Nashville. That was the Nashville connection. Then we came through Nashville and there were already musicians in the band who knew Hank, so that was the connection.

But I stayed with Ray from ’54 to ’64, then by ’66 I came to New York and first played some gigs with Kenny Dorham and then later played a few gigs with Lee Morgan and did a couple of recordings with him.

TP: Now, you switched to tenor while you were in the band, and it seemed like that was a great meeting of the minds and ears when you started playing tenor with Ray Charles.

DN: Donald Wilkerson left the band for a minute. Now, the tenor player was getting all the solos. During all my time playing baritone I think I got one solo, and that was a tune called “Greenback Dollar Bill.” I took a solo on that, because that was my one and only solo. I wanted to stretch out, so I asked Ray could I take the tenor chair. He didn’t have any particular tenor player in mind, so he said yeah, if I could get a tenor saxophone. So I went out and got myself a tenor saxophone, and from that time on I started playing the tenor. I had never played tenor before. I had played baritone and alto, but not tenor.

TP: How was the switch for you? Natural, I would assume.

DN: Oh, it was natural. I was just eager to make the switch anyway, and I was eager to play. I knew the book pretty well anyway; it was just a matter of switching from an E-flat to a B-flat instrument.

TP: How do you see the differences between the two? Are they different voices for you the way you play now.

DN: I have a different approach on each instrument. Whatever instrument I pick up, I tend to have a different approach. It’s a different flow; I just feel them differently. I can’t say exactly what it is. I just know that I have a different voice on each one.

TP: Now, you came in as the baritone player. Was Ray Charles playing alto and piano in the years before Hank joined?

DN: When we’d begin, the first half-hour or so before Ray would come in to do his singing and performing on piano, we would play these five-horn jazz arrangements Ray had written, and Ray would play the alto part.

TP: Then Hank eventually took the alto chair. Clarify that for me.

HC: See, I went in the band in ’58, and I played baritone 1958 to 1960, for two years. I didn’t think I was going to be playing baritone that long, but for some reason Leroy didn’t come right back — it was a period of two years.

TP: Did you get a solo?

HC: Yeah. In fact, I was playing baritone on Ray Charles At Newport, but I was called Bennie, my real name. A lot of people ask me, “Now, who is Bennie Crawford? Whatever happened to him?” I say, “Well, he’s still around.” Anyway, I played for two years on baritone. And like Newman was saying, I was shocked. One night, however it happened, here comes Ray Charles with his alto saxophone… See, that was one of the good things about that band, too. It was educational, because everything we did was on paper. We did a few head things, but even they sounded like arrangements. We were just that kind of band. In 1960 Ray graduated from the small band. He had big band eyes. I think that’s when he did “Let The Good Times Roll” and that big thing, which is on The Genius, one of my favorites.

DN: Excuse me, but Hank played baritone when Ray Charles presented me to Atlantic and we did Ray Charles Presents. He had solos on that and he did some of the arranging.

TP: I was about to ask Hank about your arranging activities with the Ray Charles and the dynamics of it, the type of feeling you were trying to convey and what he was asking you to do.

HC: When I joined the band with Ray, that was an avenue for me to do a lot of things. Like I said, I had been writing for small bands a little bit in Memphis. To be honest about it, Ray and I kind of clicked right away. We became section buddies and we always communicated, and I think he might have had something with me, because I even got the job as music director when Ray got the big band. I was directing the small band. Even in the small band, when I was playing baritone, when Ray was not on the bandstand, that’s the first time that we introduced the electric piano. There’s only two people I know who were playing electric piano at that time, and that was Joe Zawinul with Cannonball and Ray Charles. Ray liked the sound. I remember he bought a blond Wurlitzer. I got a chance to kind of use my piano chops, because Ray wasn’t on the bandstand, so we only had bass and drums.

TP: You play piano on a couple of the albums that are on the CD.

HC: Whatever I could do on it, you know. [LAUGHS] When through whatever channels things went through, I was asked if I wanted to take the job as music director, naturally I agreed, because I just dug the whole scene. And I kept that post for three years. That’s when I got a chance to do a lot of writing. I did most of the writing in the small band.

But back to your point. As the thing grew, Ray started playing alto and he started writing more charts for the small band, which featured him a lot on alto. And he was quite a fine alto player.

TP: Who were some of the influences for you and Ray Charles as arrangers?

HC: Well, I liked Quincy, Ernie Wilkins, Frank Foster…

TP: So the Basie-Dizzy Gillespie type charts of the mid-Fifties when you were in school.

HC: Yeah, and the Ellington things.

TP: Had you taken those apart and analyzed them and studied them in a really exhaustive way, or were you just taking a little bit from here and a little bit from there and applying it as appropriate?

HC: I would take a little bit from each arranger. But basically, I was sort of being myself. I think even after listening to all the saxophone players that we talked about, I found my own voice. Even when I play now, I try to play like Hank, but you will find yourself playing a bit of this guy and a bit of that. I’ve always been a melodic player, I’ve played in all sets, but like I said, I found my voice. And being in Ray’s band is such a long story, but it was quite an experience. I went to alto when the big band was organized.

TP: You were playing together how many nights a year during that time? 250? 300?

HC: Oh, man, we were busy. We played the theater circuit, dance halls, clubs, whatever. It was something else.

TP: That gives the band the type of tightness that you can’t get in any other way, doesn’t it.

HC: And the thing, too, about it, there were some great musicians in the band. There was Fathead, Cooper, Marcus Belgrave, John Hunt, and there later came to be Bruno Carr and Philip Guilbeau — and all of these guys were dynamite players. So it was a learning experience. We all had knowledge of music, and we could play together well. Whether we were playing outside or inside, whatever we played, the musicianship was so good that it happened automatically. So everybody felt comfortable even in that setting, whatever we played.

Before Ray, I guess the band that really knocked me as a small unit was James Moody’s Octet. Even before I went into RC’s band, Moody did some of the first small band records that I heard, and I loved the sound of Moody with an octet. I’ve always loved the sound of a band.

TP: That’s the sound you put on the recent record, Tight, five horns and rhythm.

HC: I’ve always used horns on my records, except for a few I’ve used just a quartet. I like the sound, and when I joined RC I studied his formula for it, how he’d take tenor, alto and baritone and two trumpets to come out sounding like a big band. I found out there wasn’t that much really involved. It’s basically I, III, V, VII and IX. I don’t think we ever played anything in that small band that had anything above a IX chord in it.

TP: David, I think Hank’s looking at you to answer a question.

DN: What’s that?

HC: I was just talking about the simplicity of the music we played, and how it wasn’t complex, but it came off as the sound of a big band. I was just saying I don’t think we ever played anything chord-wise in terms of the structure of a horn that was over I-III-V-VII-IX. We didn’t get into the flatted chords and extensions. Everything was basic.

DN: With the five-horn arrangements and two trumpets, it really gave the sound effect of a big band, because of the brassy sound. Ray preferred two trumpets to trombone. His voicing for the five horns was very unique.

HC: It’s like a vocal group. You have soprano, alto, tenor, baritone and bass. Those are your five major voices. Anything over that, you’re doubling. When you get into IX or XI, you’re only doubling the third or whatever you played before. When you take a VII-chord, man, and it’s voiced right, five horns can sound like ten. It’s when it’s distorted that makes it sound less.

[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]

TP: Hank, the first time you met David?

HC: Actually, it was in Nashville when I joined the band for that one night. The band bus pulled up in front of Brown’s Hotel. At that time it was called a Wiener. Red-and-white, long airport style. I was standing outside, and they pulled up, and I remember David getting out with this grin on his face. I’d heard him, as I said. He kind of bowed and nodded at me, and I nodded back. I’m meeting David, you know. It was just that simple. That was the first time I actually saw him.

TP: David, let’s talk about some of the productions on the record, inasmuch as you remember, starting with the first one, Ray Charles Presents David Newman. First, how much input did you have into the material on these records. Do you feel that these are a good expression of who you were in that period.

DN: Well, yes. My only tune on here was a tune called “Fathead,” and that was my contribution to the arrangements. Hank Crawford knew Paul Mitchell from Atlanta, and he introduced me to the tune “Hard Times,” which he arranged. Hank also arranged “Bill For Bennie,” and “Sweet Eyes” and “Weird Beard.” Ray’s arranged “Mean To Me” and “Willow Weep For Me.”

TP: Did this record evolve organically out of things you were doing in the band, plus your own interests? Also, how were the records set up in terms of choosing material, personnel and so forth?

DN: I had no idea that I was going to become an Atlantic recording artist. Ray had just said that he was going to feature me. I really didn’t know that he would be presenting me as such, and that I was going to become an Atlantic artist myself. Because Ray was recording for Atlantic. I just thought we were really doing an instrumental, and Ray was just going to feature me. But what he did is, he set it up. It was called Ray Charles Presents Fathead. It was like setting me up. And hence, from that recording on, I became an Atlantic artist, and I signed a contract then.

We did some of these tunes when we were on the road playing. Like I say, Hank had introduced “Hard Times” to me. I thought it was a helluva tune when he first played it, and I immediately asked him where he’d gotten it. Then when Ray said this was going to be my introduction and he was going to present me on this recording, we started to think about tunes that we could play. So Ray did the arranging on “Mean To Me,” he spent a lot of time on that, and then “Willow Weep For Me.” Then Hank arranged most of the other compositions that we played, like “Tin Tin Deo” and “Hard Times”…

TP: What do you remember about Straight Ahead, with the slick New York rhythm section?

DN: Oh, Straight Ahead was a wonderful date, because I particularly wanted to record with Wynton Kelly and Paul Chambers, I knew Charlie Persip, and I asked him how he felt about playing with Wynton and Paul, and he said that he would love it because he’d never recorded with them before. It turned out to be a wonderful date for me. It was the first time I’d recorded on the flute.

TP: Does this reflect what you were able to do on the set with Ray Charles before he would come out? You’d be playing Jazz for two-three-four tunes, and then the show would start?

DN: On Fathead, not Straight Ahead. Straight Ahead was later on, a separate thing. Because I had been spending time living in New York when I did Straight Ahead. In fact, I wasn’t even in Ray’s band at all when I recorded Straight Ahead. That was done around ’65 or ’66. [THIS IS INCORRECT] I was still playing with Ray when I did Fathead Comes On. That was the second recording.

TP: I know you probably want to get out of the Atlantics and talk about recent things you’ve done. You did two very strong records with Herbie Mann, a former Atlantic recording artist, and his now-defunct Kokopelli label, both with strings, a smaller group on Mr. Gentle and Mr. Cool, and then more lush arrangements on Under A Woodstock Moon.

DN: Bob Friedman did the arranging on Mr. Gentle and Mr. Cool , which was a tribute to Duke, with all Duke Ellington tunes. Bob had played baritone for a brief spell with the Duke Ellington band and was familiar with the Ellington compositions. I think the original concept about doing a tribute to Duke came from Herbie Mann.

TP: Was it all material that was meaningful to you as a young musician?

DN: Some of it was, and then some of the tunes, like “Azure” and “Almost Cried,” even at the time I started to work on the project. My parents had all of the records by the swing bands of the Big Band era like Ellington and Armstrong. Johnny Hodges was one of my favorite alto players, and I’d listen to him play “Jeep’s Blues,” a tune that I always loved, “Don’t Get Around Much Any More.” I had heard “Prelude To A Kiss,” but I’d never played it before.

The second recording, which was Under A Woodstock Moon, was my outing as a producer. I always wanted to do strings, and I’d had strings on an album entitled Bigger and Better for Atlantic, with Bill Fischer arranging in the late Sixties. Kokopelli couldn’t afford to do a whole string section, so we did a string ensemble thing with a string quartet, which was as much as they would allow me to do. Bob Friedman did the arrangements. I had just moved to Woodstock, and this was a tribute to Mother Nature. One of my compositions was “Under A Woodstock Moon” and another called “Amandla.”

TP: It’s a very mellow, melodic record, with a lot of variety of color and texture.

DN: The other tunes were a tribute to Nature, like “Up Jumped Spring,” “Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most,” “Autumn In New York,” and “A Nightingale Sang In Berkeley Square.” I have another composition on there called “Amandla,” which is an African name for freedom.

TP: Let me ask you one or two things that the editor wants me to ask you. What do you think was the impact of the Ray Charles Band you were in on contemporary music, in terms of the way the grooves and the feeling has permeated it?

DN: I don’t know about the impact. I would say that there is definitely an influence on the music from the Ray Charles feel and what was happening musically with Ray. Ray Charles certainly influenced my playing and Hank’s playing jazz-wise and in terms of music as a whole. Ray gave us a lesson in music appreciation. Before my encounter with Ray, I really didn’t have any kind of concept about music appreciation. I only liked to play jazz and bebop. That was my only real love. But after meeting Ray and playing with Ray, I learned how to appreciate all other forms of music also, like the Blues, Spirituals, Gospel, and even Country-and-Western.

TP: To play the whole range of music with conviction and soul.

DN: Right. And to have the respect and to really admire and to love the music. So it was a lesson in music appreciation that I think we got from Ray. I don’t know about the impact, but there was definitely an impact.

TP: That’s a beautiful answer. You’ve really stretched out a lot on your recent recordings, taken chances, worked with progressive musicians. Is that your true heart in the music?

DN: Well, yes. Because this music is a gift, it’s an incredible gift. What happens is the music doesn’t really come from me or from us; this music comes through us. So I want to explore what I can do in all the different areas of music. I don’t necessarily want to stick to a certain form insofar as the music goes. I want to expand my mind and expand the music as it comes through me and as I feel it. I really like to bridge the generations, so to speak, when it comes to the music that I’m playing, because this music is moving as the time moves on, but we still have these feelings about music. So I want to explore and to play in other areas, even see how my music fits into the Rap situation — I mean, poetically. I don’t really see anything wrong with Rap. It’s just the content in Rap that’s a little offensive sometimes. But the Rap music itself is really an extension of the music, coming from Louis Armstrong.

TP: Do they use samples of your solos ever that you know about?

DN: Not that I’ve heard. Nothing that I’ve heard so far. But I’ve become interested in this, just listening. I was listening to Quincy Jones speak the other day about the music. Jesse Jackson asked him why would he be interested in Rap, and Quincy said the same thing, that the music comes not from him, but through him. That’s the same way I feel about this music. It comes through me, and what you do is, you put your particular touch onto the music and what you feel. You put your stamp on it, your feeling, let the music come through you and see what comes out. You can’t close yourself off from the different forms of music as music moves on.

TP: You also have access to so many sounds and colors from being a multi-instrumentalist. How do you keep your chops up on all the instruments?

DN: Well, I manage to keep my chops up, especially since I have moved to Woodstock now. I get a chance to work on the different instruments. I still have a soprano, I have an alto and a tenor and my flute. I get quite a few calls to do studio work to record with various musicians, and I manage to stay halfway busy to keep myself going. Of course, I know that to keep my chops up and play, I have got to pick the instruments up and play them.

TP: People say it’s a struggle to keep one instrument up, and you’re keeping up four! You’re doing pretty good.

DN: Well, it’s a labor of love, that’s what it is. I love the music. I think I’ll always… It’s not about practicing, but I just pick up the instruments and play.

[PAUSE]

TP: Equipment from David Newman.

DN: I have a Selmer alto. My mouthpiece is a hard rubber Otto Link. I used to play the Meyer mouthpiece, but now I have Otto Link hard rubber.

TP: Why?

DN: I like the Otto Link hard rubber mouthpiece. I don’t play the metal mouthpiece any more, because I have dentures now, and I’m a little more flexible on the hard rubber. I like the Otto Link because I like the sound, especially the old Otto Links. I use that on my alto and my tenor. I have a Selmer soprano also, and I used a Meyer mouthpiece on the soprano. I have a Selmer Mark-VI tenor that was made in the ’60s. It was made in about ’60 or ’61, a very good time for Selmer tenors. Any of the Selmer saxophones made in less than 100,000 would be really good quality material that they were putting into the instruments. They still make very good instruments, but the newer instruments these days… That’s the reason why so many musicians try to get a Mark VI. The Mark VI was really one of the classic saxophones.

I have a Germeinhardt flute.

TP: Anything you want to say about why you use these instruments, or have you said your fill?

DN: Well, my first flute was…when I first became interested in the flute… We were traveling in Ray’s band, and we came through Orlando, Florida, and we had a few off-days. I passed by this pawn shop, and in this pawn shop they had two wooden ebony Haynes flutes, very good and expensive flutes. Some guy there who had played with the symphony had these instruments, and the pawnshop owner let me have it for little or nothing. He had a C-flute and an alto flute, and I think I gave the guy $25 for the C-flute, which had an E-flat trill on it. I should have bought the alto flute also. I brought this flute back, and the guys in the band asked me, “Do you know what you got there?” I said, “It’s a flute.” They said, “Man, you’ve got a Haynes wooden flute, and this is a very expensive instrument.” And I started teaching myself to play the flute, and listened to other flute players, particularly James Moody and Frank Wess, and I eventually started trying to get a sound on the flute. Rahsaan Roland Kirk and I, we both maybe started on the flute around the same time. I was a couple of years older than him, so I might have started earlier. Eventually, the flute was stolen from me, I lost it, and then I started playing other C-flutes, of course. But my first flute was a Haynes flute, and the flute I have now is a Gemeinhardt.

[PAUSE]

TP: David has left, and Hank and I are here together. A few words about the recordings on Memphis, Ray and A Touch Of Moody. What do you remember about More Soul, the first one you did?

HC: Actually, that was my first recording as a leader. I wrote some of the arrangements in Nashville, maybe a couple in Memphis, and the rest I wrote while I was in Ray’s small band. But we played these arrangements in Ray’s small band. We used to go 45 minutes or an hour before he would come on to sing — the band had it. When we recorded that, we were playing at the Apollo Theater, doing a show, and we finished the late show. We were doing five or six shows a day. We finished at about midnight, and we went directly to Atlantic Recording Studio. We got there I guess by 12:30, and we started recording at 1, and we didn’t stop until we’d completed it, which was 7 or 8 o’clock the following morning. Most of the musicians and the music we were playing in the small band of Ray Charles.

That’s when I got the opportunity to start writing, because after I had been in there for a while, R.C. found out I that I was doing some arranging and liked to write, so he just kind of hinted, said, “You know, if you want to do some writing…” Plus I found it a good place to be, because I was very interested and very much into writing and arranging, and being in that band, since he liked to write and I had written for bands that size… See, I was familiar with the size of that band. I just didn’t have the venues or the musicians to play the music. I was still young and hadn’t been that far. So that gave me an opportunity to write, when he found out I was writing a little bit.

TP: The writing started in high school for you.

HC: Yeah, I’ve been writing since then.

TP: There are two Moody tunes, “The Story” and “Boo’s Tune.”

HC: I did the arrangement on everything except “The Story,” which Ray Charles did. I told Ray I was doing the date and asked him if he would do a tune for me, and he did “The Story.”

TP: So Moody’s band was very influential in a lot of ways that aren’t well known.

HC: I loved him as a player and I liked the sound of the band. I think Johnny Acea was writing for that band at the time. I always loved the octet sound. Moody’s was one of the first bands I heard that small that really knocked me out. Of course, before that I was listening to Louis Jordan’s Tympany Five, which is just like five pieces. But Moody’s band was like an octet, and I loved the sound of the band.

TP: I have to tell you, when I listen to you I feel like I’m listening to the reincarnation of Earl Bostic, in a certain way, just in the way you approach a melody and the sound.

HC: Well, Earl was a power player. In fact, I play strong myself. I’m naturally a power player. That was the thing that I like about Earl, plus he was playing a lot of ballads and standard tunes. At that time, you know, I was hearing a lot of Bostic, so he was just automatically one of my first influences.

TP: And I’m sure it affected people when you played like that, just because of the way the sound is.

HC: Yes.

TP: Anyway, the second record, From The Heart, sounds more like what I’d expect to hear from you later, more range, lush textures and so forth.

HC: Well, From the Heart was completely mine. Nobody did any arrangements on that. At this time I had really found my way of writing. I was kind of comfortable with what I was doing on From The Heart. It was basically the same band, because I was still with Ray. But I was getting the opportunity to play these tunes before he would come out. Once I got the job as music director, he pretty much just gave it up, and gave it to me. So I used that, man, and I did a lot of writing, and the music got exposed because we were going everywhere, playing concerts. It just gave me a chance to expand on what I wanted to do earlier anyway, being in that group.

TP: Then there’s a strings album on this.

HC: Ah, yes. I asked to be recorded with strings, and I was surprised when I got a yes on it from Neshui Ertegun at Atlantic Records. He agreed, to my surprise, and asked me who did I want to do the arrangements, and I said Marty Paich. I had heard Marty Paich’s small band arrangements when he was writing for Shorty Rogers and Stan Kenton, the West Coast scene, and I liked the way he voiced the strings. I found out the secret; he used french horns with strings to get that real melancholy sound. So Neshui agreed, and we went to California to record the record. I selected all the tunes except one, which really turned out to be sort of a signature tune for me, which was “Whispering Grass.” Marty Paich suggested that.

TP: You have quite a memory.

HC: Oh yeah, I try to remember these things. I mean, it stayed with me, man, because it was such an experience. I heard Marty do a string session with Gloria Lynne, “I Wish You Love” and all those things, and I thought it was beautiful work. To be honest about it, when Ray wanted to do his first thing with strings, around the time of The Genius, by me being close to him, I suggested Marty Paich to him, and he used it.

I was with Ray Charles 24-7, because I was the music director. He would call me to come over to his house, and I would sit there all day and sometimes all night while he would dictate and I would notate. So I was always busy.

TP: So you have as much of an insight as anyone into the inner workings of his creative mind.

HC: Oh yeah. Well, after a while, he noticed how I was writing. He’s an individualist, you know; he’s the only one. Like, there are certain saxophone players, certain musicians there’s only one. Like, I haven’t found anybody that has my sound yet, and I don’t think David… We all have our distinctive sounds.

TP: That was the ethos of the time. Everybody had to have their sound when you were coming up.

HC: That’s the secret of survival in this business, is identity. You can play all of the notes, and there are a lot of musicians out there now, man, that can play — I mean, young and old. But nobody knows who they are. And people buy identity. You put on Miles Davis now, and automatically somebody goes, “That’s Miles.” Then you put on Dizzy, and they know him. But once they don’t know who you are, you don’t really sell. Like, Louis Armstrong; they know Pops. That’s what people buy. When they go into a record shop, they say, “I want this guy.” They’re not going there to listen to fifty other guys just to buy a record. They know basically who they want when they go in. So that’s what to me sells, is identity.

[PAUSE]

TP: David just came in to mention to make sure I mention that he and Ron Carter were the two senior cast members on the 2 CDs for Kansas City.

[PAUSE]

TP: Your comments on identity were a tangent from talking about Ray Charles. You said you were with him 24-7, and the type of insights that gave you into the way his mind works. Some general comments on his approach to music and the impact he had on you.

HC: Well, see, it was so real for me to be there, because being around him and his background… There’s only like a four year difference in age between us. So we are all from the same era, and we basically had the same experience with music, which was Gospel and the Blues and Jazz. We’re all from that era. So I heard the same things that he heard, and whoever was around at that time. It just so happened that when I joined Ray, that was a period when things were happening within that unit that eventually went to the Moon. Anyway, that’s what made it so easy for me to understand. Because when he would dictate to me, writing his own charts… See, he wrote his own charts; he just didn’t put them on paper. I was the one who was doing all the notating. So when he found out that I had a background in arranging and composing and voicing chords and stuff like that, after a while, he would come in and make his initial statement about what he wanted, and he would write it, and then he would say, “You got it.” So really I studied him. It was another teacher, but it was not that much difference in how we felt about the feeling of music, because we all had the same type of background.

TP: You were almost his alter-ego.

HC: Yeah. So I really understood where he was coming from. I studied that, and I found out that, hey, I have some of the same kind of thoughts about this music, which made it easier for he and I to relate.

TP: Is it harder for you to find people who have that sort of unspoken communication and empathy in the projects you do now?

HC: Yeah, because you don’t have the association with musicians like you had at that time. I mean, it was a community. The Jazz community was great. We were friends, man. We hung out together and studied together, broke a lot of bread together. We had venues to play. There aren’t any venues now like there used to be, and the community is divided. We don’t see each other as we once did.

TP: You don’t cross paths in the same way.

HC: Man, right here in New York City we used to walk down Broadway and go to 52nd Street or 50th Street, and stand right there on the corner — every day, 24 hours a day — and you would meet friends. And we didn’t only play together. We discussed music. That whole era was a learning period from everybody. But now, man you almost walk out like… You can’t find anybody. Everybody’s moved out or they just don’t come out any more. You know what I’m saying? There’s just not the community like it used to be. There’s no association, just, “Hey, how you doing, I’ll see you next time.”

TP: But how does that affect your performing or recording projects, or the way you deal with bands right now. I guess you have to dot a lot more i’s and cross a lot more t’s.

HC: I’m not one of the type of players that’s concerned a lot about changing with what’s in. No, I found my sound, and I think I’m going to stick to my guns. I think that’s what destroys a lot of players. Instead of being themselves, they try to be like others. And in this business, there’s only one of one. Like, there’s only one Bird, there’s only one Coltrane, and there’s only one whoever. But what happens with a lot of musicians, I think, they’ll be inspired by somebody when they are learning, and they grew up trying to play like that person.

TP: A lot of the young players. Because they don’t have so many places to play. They’re in school, and that’s the way they’re educated.

HC: That’s it, man. Like I said earlier, I’ve played in all settings, Jazz, Blues and everything. I’ve had an association with all kinds of music, man, and with some great people. I think I have established myself and my sound and what kind of player I am really, although I might play Jazz, I might play this, I might play that. Like I said, I approach the horn as a vocalist. I try to sing through the instrument, and play melodies, not a lot of technical things. I think if I would lose that identity that I’ve established myself and that people know me by, and go into something just for the sake of saying, “Well, I can do this just as well as that person,” I think I’d lose my identity. I could probably get away with trying to play some Coltrane for maybe a couple of tunes, and then your fans or your audience is going to say, “Hey, you’re trying to play like so-and-so; get back to yourself.”

TP: That raises a question. What you play on the surface is very simple, basic.

HC: Yes.

TP: Is it deceptively simple? How complex is it really to do what you do?

HC: For some people it’s hard. For me, playing simple is almost a natural.

TP: Because you’re a very sophisticated, educated musician.

HC: I’m sort of a romantic when it comes to it. The technical things… I’ve studied, man, and I can get off into some pretty hard Bebop. But that’s not just me naturally. I just play what I feel naturally. And I’ve been into some great sets with some great players, you know, but it ends up that I’m better being myself.

TP: George Coleman played all the notes.

HC: Yes, in all the keys! We studied that, too. I tried that. I said, “Well, you know, I can do a little bit of this, but that’s just not where I’m from; that’s just not me.” So I chose to do what I do best. Because if you’re going to survive in this business, man, you’ve got to have your own identity. Nobody’s going to come to listen to one of my concerts or gigs to hear me sound like somebody else. That’s the biggest mistake I can do, for somebody to come and pay $20 or $25 and come in the door, and here I am on the bandstand trying to be somebody else.

TP: Your name is your sound.

HC: Right. And once you lose that, I think you’ve destroyed everything. You can turn on the radio, man, and you can hear this trumpet player or this saxophone player, and man, they’re playing! But there’s something that don’t register with you if he doesn’t have a certain sound or play a certain style of phrasing. If you can’t recognize that in a player, then you’re just listening to somebody and all you can say about it is, “Ooh, who is that? He sure plays good!”

TP: Are there any good young players, saxophone or any instrument, who you think have a sound?

HC: Well, there’s a tenor player who’s young compared to a lot of people… I think Joshua Redman has his own sound.

TP: That’s probably why he’s so popular.

HC: That’s part of it. There are a few others; I can’t think of them now. But there are so many youngsters, man, that I hear and they sound good, they’re playing! But that’s what’s missing. And I’ll even go so far as to say this. As far as the man walking on the street, who knows nothing about music, but knows it when he hears it, and he knows whether the player is playing or jiving, or he knows when you’re playing wrong and when you’re playing right. All these people on the street, man, they know when you’re playing wrong and when you’re playing right.

There are so many players like… I just want to use a major influence on young musicians, and I mean nothing by this because I have a lot of respect for him. That’s Wynton Marsalis. What I’m going to say that is when I was talking about identity…

[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]

TP: Now you know it’s him when you hear him play.

HC: The man has all the facilities in the world. I mean, he’s a good trumpet player, he’s a good educator, he’s a good everything — I have to give it to him. But the average layman, I’ll bet you, man, 75 out of 100 would identify a Freddie Hubbard or a Dizzy or a Miles faster than they would identify Wynton — as far as identity. I mean, if you don’t really know, if you’re not a musician… And not only Wynton, but anybody. If you don’t really know him and know the techniques of playing because you are a musician or a good listener, you would not be able to identify this bad cat, whoever it is. It’s just like Count Basie. One note. You know the tag he plays, BOP-BOP-BOP? I can go the piano and do it (it’s only three fingers) you could do it, I could teach my kids, anybody. BOP-BOP-BOP, it’s all in one place. But nobody sounds like when Basie hits it. Same notes. But when Basie strikes it, there is something else that comes out of the note. You know what I mean? And Oscar Peterson or somebody like that can go right behind and play the same thing, and you know how great Oscar is, but Basie has a stamp. When he hits it, you automatically know it.

TP: Do drummers today get the tempos they were in the Fifties and Sixties?

HC: I like drummers. A drummer is very important to me. Because everything I play is basically to the root. I don’t go outside too much. A lot of musicians find that hard to do. The simplest things can be the hardest sometimes.

TP: The more you know, the harder it is not to go into everything that you know.

HC: Right, man. The drummer is very important. You’ve got to learn how to be able to do what’s necessary for you to do in playing in a band. In the drummer’s case, it might be necessary for him to just keep time. It’s not necessary for him to play a solo. Or anybody in there, but especially drummers. Some guys felt like that was not enough just to keep time and complement the man out front, the front line. It was a drag to a lot of people just to keep time until you get that give-the-drummer-some, that one solo a night. Otherwise, he’s playing time. And a lot of guys don’t like to do that because they like to do other things, but it’s not necessary for you to do nothing but keep time here — and that’s hard.

TP: And tune to the drum to the sound of the band…

HC: Right, and do that every night! Every note. It’s got to be this way every time you play it. Certain music. Certain music you just don’t explore on, man.

TP: I need your equipment.

HC: I’m just playing the Selmer Super-Action 80. That’s what I’m playing now. The mouthpiece is Barrett. It’s really like a stock mouthpiece. I never played anything other than stocks.

TP: What is it about the Selmer alto?

HC: It’s like the Rolls Royce of saxophones. You ain’t got a Selmer… It’s just like having a Cadillac or a Rolls Royce. It’s the king. It’s a good horn, and most professionals play it. There’s a lot of other horns, Bushes, Conns, all of them, but the Selmer is it for me. The body, it’s got good weight, feels good, and it responds. To me, it’s just the best horn.

[PAUSE]

TP: Hank has some thoughts on Fathead.

HC: Well, we go back to almost the beginning of my professional career, and we’ve been more than just musicians, section buddies. We have a little friendship. I respect him as a man, and we kind of have that respect as men — and I respect his playing. I broke a lot of bread with David. The thing I like about him is whatever he plays, for me, I can understand it, I can feel it, how he expresses himself. He’s just the kind of player that I like, and there are many others, but David is one that I had the experience of being around a lot, so I know him from A to Z! He’s a very soulful man, and he can play in almost every setting. I think that’s what we all learned coming up through that period. He’s just one of my favorites… He’s on most of my recordings. Every time I use a small band, I always use David. He has a beautiful sound, a warm sound, and he always finds the blue notes. He’s a stylist, and I think that’s true of most of the musicians from our era. We’re stylists. We all style whatever we play; we put our tag on it. That’s just the way it is. And I like all music, man. I’m not trying to put down anybody. I have respect for anybody who gets involved in the business because it’s so competitive. But when I hear a guy that can cross all bridges, and comfortable playing in each setting, that’s what I admire — and don’t feel guilty playing it.

I don’t feel guilty playing “Steel Guitar Rag” if I’m called to play it. You know what I mean? I heard that when I was coming up as a kid, man, at 6 o’clock in the morning. Down South, that’s the first thing you’d hear on your radio, is Country & Western and Gospel music. That’s what you wake up on, C&W and Gospel! I spent many days listening to Eddy Arnold and Hank Snow and all of those people. And we all liked it! Even Jazz musicians, they can’t say they didn’t grow up listening to these people. So I played it as a youngster, and I don’t feel offended by it. I just do my best in it. So it’s music to me. I don’t mind being square because I play this tune. In fact, it’s a blessing to be able to play in all the styles. That’s when your phone keeps ringing!

TP: Well, it’s like what David said about Ray Charles. He said it was like music appreciation. He learned to play with soul, from the heart in every different situation.

HC: Look at Cannonball, man. His biggest hits were Soul music, “Mercy, Mercy” and stuff. And Cannon was one of the greatest saxophone players in the world to me.

For the 78th birthday anniversary of the late, great pianist Bobby Timmons (Dec. 19, 1935-March 1, 1974), I’m posting a liner note that I wrote for a Fantasy Records “Best Of” culled from his Riverside recordings, and interviews from an elite group of associates and friends: Albert “Tootie” Heath, Kenny Barron, Reggie Workman, Benny Golson, Cedar Walton and Ron Carter. I had fun putting this one together.

* * * *

“The Best Of Bobby Timmons,” Liner Notes:

It seems apparent, given the dearth of first person testimony in the liner notes for his numerous recordings for Riverside and Prestige, that in matters of self-description, pianist Bobby Timmons [1935-1974] held firmly to the dictum that music speaks louder than words.

Cherrypicked from seven Riverside albums between 1960 and 1963, The Best Of Bobby Timmons, if nothing else, highlights that Timmons was one of the seminal communicators of his generation. He was 24 when Lambert, Hendricks & Ross sang Jon Hendricks’ lyrics to the Timmons ditties “Moanin” and “This Here,” which had debuted instrumentally on stirring albums with Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers and Cannonball Adderley’s Quintet that were released in 1959. Soon thereafter, Oscar Brown’s version of “Dat Dere,” originally documented by Adderley in February 1960, made it onto jukeboxes around the country. On the strength of these hits, Timmons cut his sideman affiliations in 1961, and accepted a string of national bookings with his own trio. Much to his discomfort, “soul jazz” would be the label forever be affixed to his name.

Out of South Philadelphia, a bebop hotbed in his formative years, Timmons’ music was relentlessly earthy and primal. He was anything but primitive, but a soulful perspective was in his bones.

“Bobby’s grandfather raised him around the corner from where our family grew up,” says drummer Albert “Tootie” Heath, the baby brother of bassist Percy and tenor saxophonist Jimmy. “His grandfather was a minister, and Bobby played in his grandfather’s church. Later he came into jazz. We didn’t go to elementary school together, but later I saw him quite a bit. He took a lot of guidance from my brother Jimmy, who taught harmony to most of my young friends, and was an educator for a lot of people, like Lee Morgan and Jimmy Garrison. We played as a trio at dances at fraternity houses around the University of Pennsylvania, and were in a big band together with a guy named Tommy Monroe along with Lee and some other people who went on to get big names in jazz.

“We would imitate whatever we could from records – Sonny Rollins, Max Roach’s group – and we liked Ahmad Jamal. I loved Vernell Fournier and wanted to be like him when I grew up, and I think Bobby wanted to be like Ahmad as much as he could. Ahmad came to Philadelphia with Vernell and Richard Davis, and we were too young to go in the club, so we stood outside, and heard what we could whenever the door opened. Whenever we got a chance to play as a trio, that style would be in the back of our minds.”

In the trio, the aspirants completed the triangle with bassists like Garrison, Eddie Matthias, Spanky DeBrest, Jymie Merritt, and occasionally, Reggie Workman.

“Most of the time when we worked, the challenge was fulfilling whatever the engagement called for,” recalls Workman. “We all had to do everything, jazz clubs as well as dances, cabarets and parties. That’s where the music was heard and made. I remember Bobby as a young man, his brilliance, his jovial attitude, and his depth of soul — or depth of being, I should say. He was always an ardent dresser, neat in his music and in his personality. He was also very witty. It all turned up in his music. No matter what he was doing, he always had his personal voice. You’d know that it was Bobby Timmons doing it.”

Timmons moved to New York in 1954, honing his craft on consequential jobs with Kenny Dorham, Sonny Stitt and Chet Baker. In the summer of 1958, Benny Golson, recently recruited by Art Blakey to bring a new sound to the Jazz Messengers, brought Timmons, Morgan and Merritt into the fold.

“He was inventive,” says Golson, “He wasn’t locked up in a cylinder. He could play bebop and he could play funky – he could play a lot of things, and I thought it was the element that Art needed. He hadn’t had anybody quite like Bobby, who could go here or go there, rather than walking in a single corridor.”

As the Messengers hit the road, Golson noticed that Timmons frequently would “play this little funky lick in between the tunes.” He continues: “I got used to hearing it, and after he’d play it, he would say, ‘Ah, that sure is funky.’ I’d say, ‘Sure is.’ We were in Detroit when I really started to listen to it. We got to Columbus, Ohio, and I called a rehearsal. Bobby said, ‘We’ve got everything down; why are we going to rehearse?’ I said, ‘You know that little lick you play?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘You’ve got eight bars; all you need is another 8 bars on the bridge.’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s nothing; that’s just a little lick.” I said, ‘No, Bobby, I hear something else. Why don’t you go up on the bandstand and compose a bridge.’ In about half-an-hour he said, ‘Come and listen,’ and then he played it. I said, ‘Why don’t you try again, and we’ll go over here and talk some more.’ He did something, and called me over in about 15 minutes and asked what I thought. I could see he didn’t think much of it. I said, ‘That’s it. Come on, Lee, let’s learn it.’ Then I said, ‘Bobby, you’ve got to give it a name now.’ He said, ‘Well, I don’t know.’ ‘Well, what does it sound like?’ He said, ‘“Well, it sounds like moaning.’ I said, ‘Good, let’s call it ‘Moanin’.”

In the fall of 1959, Timmons left the Messengers for Cannonball Adderley’s Quintet, in which he, bassist Sam Jones and drummer Louis Hayes formed a slamming rhythm section on Live At The Jazz Workshop and Them Dirty Blues. He returned in the spring of 1960, in time to appear on classic Messenger dates like Night In Tunisia, The Big Beat, The Freedom Rider and The Witch Doctor .

“I had to play ‘Moanin’ and ‘Dat Dere’ when I joined the Messengers,” says Cedar Walton, Timmons’ successor in the piano chair. “They were arrangements that were very accessible to anybody with any kind of talent. I was hardcore when I got in the band, and couldn’t imagine playing them. But once I got there, I found myself enjoying them. They were very simple, so you had to make something happen, which was a challenge.”

It’s a challenge that Timmons addresses with relish throughout this well-wrought compilation, consisting of six Timmons originals, each with hummable hooks and tasty changes, and seven show tunes of the torchy persuasion. Powell’s presence is everywhere. Note the fleet runs on “Old Devil Moon” and “Easy Does It,” the stark substitutions he deploys on the brief intro to “God Bless the Child,” the voicings that pop up on “Spring Can Hang You Up The Most” and “Goodbye,” the Dameronian flavor on the bridge of “So Tired.” As Ron Carter puts it, “Bobby wrote some interesting songs, but he was not a composer like, Benny Golson. He was a wonderful improviser. He had the ability to play the melodies and songs so that the band could tell the difference from night to night, but it would sound the same for the audience. He was very giving, very loyal, played every night like it was his last chance to get it right.”

Although Timmons was a bandleader with a firm, distinctive point of view, he was never rigid. “He would accept input,” Carter says. “He always remembered my basslines from the other night. He’d remember what had almost worked the night before. Can we play the same idea in a different key, or play it slower, or develop another way to make the song work? I’d say, ‘Bobby, that isn’t working; can we find something else to do with that?’ and he’d say, ‘Well, what?’ If my idea worked, that would become part of the tune. Tootie would suggest something, Bobby would say, ‘I don’t know, man; let’s see how it goes.’ So he was open to any suggestion, and as a leader he would determine whether that suggestion fit the musical direction he had in mind. Good leaders do that.”

The chronology ends in 1963, when Soul Jazz was no longer ascendent, the national circuit was drying up, and the tragic shadow that dogged so many of Timmons’ heroes began to attach itself to him. “Bobby stayed in town more,” says Carter, who recorded with Timmons as late as 1967. “We did some duo gigs before he died, working in and out of the Village, at places like the Lion’s Head and the Needle’s Eye.”

“Bobby was a wild cat,” Walton says, and indeed, Timmons did drink himself to death, eventually succumbing to cirrhosis of the liver in 1974. But the darkness never entered his music. As Carter notes, “I’ve never seen how someone’s music can be interpreted as though it were HIM. I’m not sure how you can call ‘Moanin’” indicative of Bobby’s giving personality or ‘Dis Here’ with the fact that he would go to the mat for you.”

“He had no ego about him,” Golson adds. “He was always upbeat, never downbeat, and he never maligned anybody unless it was in a humorous way. Some people think he was just a funky piano player, and he could PLAY funky, but he could also get into things. Of course, now is a different time. But then he was right on the cutting edge.”

Ted Panken

* * *

Tootie Heath on Bobby Timmons:

TP: In reading the program notes from Bobby Timmons’ records, only one had an interview with him, and all of them say mostly the same thing. I was talking with Reggie Workman about another subject, and Reggie told me a little. But I knew you grew up nearby and were the same age, and knew him well.

HEATH: We kind of grew up together and we grew apart together also. After the New York days, he went in his own direction. I didn’t see Bobby much after Art Blakey. I think our trio was before Art Blakey.

TP: I think it was after his first time with Art. He joined in ’59 with “Moanin’” — that’s when “Moanin’” because famous. Then he went with Cannonball.

HEATH: Right. For a short period. A year.

TP: Then he went back with Art for a while. That seems to be when he formed the trio.

HEATH: Right. That’s when the trio came in. After all of that, I guess.

TP: A number of the first records are with Sam Jones and Jimmy Cobb, so I guess he did those when he was with Cannonball, and maybe that’s how he came to sign with Riverside. But you were part of the first working trio?

HEATH: Yes, I think so. With Ron Carter. We even played that around Philadelphia, before we left Philly, as a trio sometimes, with Jimmy Rowser and a couple of other local bass players. Mostly Jimmy Rowser, and sometimes Eddie Matthias, Jimmy Bond, and Reggie a few times.

TP: Can you tell me anything about his musical background?

HEATH: All I know is that we were all on the same mission. We were all practicing and studying and listening to records and learning as much as we could about jazz. Bobby did play in church. His grandfather was a minister, and Bobby did play in his grandfather’s church. He lived with his grandfather. Actually, his grandfather raised him around the corner from where we lived, where our family grew up. So I saw Bobby quite a bit, and he took a lot of guidance from my brother Jimmy, who was there, teaching harmony to most of my young friends and a lot of people. An educator for a lot of people.

TP: That would have been when he had the big band in ’47 and ‘48?

HEATH: A little after that. Because Bobby… We weren’t quite there for the big band stuff. I mean, I was there in the house. But we were 10-11 years old during that time. But later in life, when we were in high school or junior high school…

TP: ‘48-’49…

HEATH: Yeah. ‘50, around in there. Then Jimmy was very helpful with Lee Morgan and Bobby and Jimmy Garrison and a whole lot of people. That’s who played bass with us, too, a lot — Jimmy Garrison.

TP: Did Bobby get to know Bud Powell at all, like McCoy Tyner did?

HEATH: I have no idea. I never knew Bud Powell in Philadelphia. I knew his brother, Richard, but I never knew Bud. Bud was gone. And they lived outside of Philadelphia, in the suburbs. I knew Richard from his period with Max Roach.

TP: May I ask one or two detailed questions? What was the name of the church where his grandfather was minister?

HEATH: I have no idea. Bobby had a sister, too, named Eleanor, who died maybe 10-15 years ago, long after him.

TP: When did you meet him? You were 11-12 years old?

HEATH: Yeah, I guess so. We didn’t go to elementary school together. I don’t know what school he went to. I went to school in South Philly with some different guys, like Sam Reed and Ted Curson and guys like that. But Bobby kind of came all of a sudden, because he was playing the piano, but he was playing church music, and he came later into jazz music, into being interested in jazz — around 15 or so.

TP: Did you play in teenage combos?

HEATH: Yeah, we played as a trio. We played some fraternity houses around the University of Pennsylvania. Bobby was kind of a favorite on some of those dances. I used to do things with Bobby and Ray Bryant. We also were in a big band together with a guy named Tommy Monroe, and Lee Morgan was in that band and some other people who had gone on to be rather big-name people in jazz. But Bobby was also in the big band with us, and we played some dances, and then we played some trio stuff around in the fraternity houses. That was kind of a good thing to do as a teenager.

TP: So when you were 16-17 years old, ‘51, ‘52, ‘53.

HEATH: Well, in ’58 I came to New York, when I joined J.J.’s band. But I used to go back and forth to New York, and I think all of us did that for a while until we all made the final move. We had an apartment down there on the Lower East Side with Bobby and Lee Morgan and Spanky DeBrest.

TP: You all lived in an apartment together?

HEATH: Yeah, we had an apartment on Fifth Street, 315 East Fifth Street. Elvin Jones lived across the street, Ted Curson lived on that block, Jon Hendricks lived on that block, Kenny Barron’s brother Bill. A lot of musicians. I think it was between Third and Second. We used to walk around the corner to the Five Spot.

TP: Maybe it was 215.

HEATH: Maybe it was 215. But it was not far from the Five Spot. We’d go right around the corner, and Ornette was there and sometimes Mingus would be playing. Actually, we never played in there because we weren’t quite there yet. We were in bands. Bobby was with Art Blakey and Lee Morgan.

TP: So you were part of the Manhattan contingent. There was a big Brooklyn contingent, too.

HEATH: Yeah. We all lived in Manhattan. Jimmy Garrison and I got a place in Brooklyn later, which didn’t last very long, but we did have one there.

TP: When you were playing combo at 16 or 17 around Philadelphia, what kinds of things were you playing? Was it mostly Bobby’s arrangements?

HEATH: Yeah, some of it was his. A lot of stuff we were just imitating recordings. We would play whatever we could from records. Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Max Roach’s group — whomever.

TP: But were there any piano trios he was emulating or trying to get with?

HEATH: Yeah. We liked Ahmad Jamal. Jamal’s music was popular around that time. Ahmad had his club during that time, and that’s when his stuff was real hot, because they sat in that one club and played for five years, and that’s where they developed the sound of the Ahmad Jamal trio. We heard their music. They used to come to Philadelphia, and of course, I loved Vernell Fournier and wanted to be like him when I grew up, and I think Bobby wanted to be like Ahmad as much as he could. Ron was going in his own direction already.

TP: In ’51 and ‘52, Ahmad had recorded, but at the time he had a trio with Israel Crosby and Ray Crawford.

HEATH: This trio that we liked and saw was with Vernell and Israel. Actually, the first one I saw was with Vernell and Richard Davis. They used to come to Philadelphia, and we were too young to go in the club, so we would kind of just stand outside, and whenever the door would open we could hear a little bit. That’s how we got to loving Ahmad’s style of trio music. Whenever we got a chance to play as a trio, that style would be in the back of our minds.

TP: That sort of organization.

HEATH: Yeah, and the arrangements and the interesting things they used to do together.

TP: Well, it’s a very orchestrated style. The drums would have a role and a voice and the bass…

HEATH: That was it. Those were the guys for us.

TP: How about pianistically? Was he modeling himself after anyone? You hear a lot of Bud in his playing. There’s some Horace Silver and…

HEATH: He liked Horace Silver and Ahmad, and I’m sure he liked Bud, too. But I didn’t get that part of him, the Bud Powell thing.

TP: Do you remember him speaking to you about influences ever?

HEATH: No.

TP: Were you not such close friends, but just musical colleagues?

HEATH: No, we were close.

TP: What was he like personally?

HEATH: That’s hard. We were young people, and being young guys.

TP: Was he a humorous guy?

HEATH: Oh yeah. He had a great sense of humor, and yeah, he had a great personality. People liked him.

TP: Do you think he maybe developed that in the church a bit, that performing for church people from a young age gave him a public personality early on?

HEATH: I doubt it. Because in the church, you don’t really have a voice in there. You just sit up and do what you do. I doubt if he… I don’t know. That’s a hard one.

TP: Was he a very warm person?

HEATH: Yes. Sure. He dressed immaculately all the time. He was very conscious about his appearance.

TP: On all the albums, you see him in a very form-fitting suit, and he’s so skinny, he fits it well. Was he a chukka-boot wearer?

HEATH: He probably did. I think that’s something that everyone was doing at one time.

TP: Was he painstaking with his arrangements? Did he go over them with a fine-tooth comb?

HEATH: Oh yeah. He was very particular about his music.

TP: He was particular about the way he dressed and particular about his music. What were the rehearsals like? Was he very specific about the drum parts?

HEATH: I don’t really remember. I remember us, as part of our development, sitting down and playing, but I don’t remember a so-called rehearsal where we had something… He just accepted whatever I did, and I listened to what he was doing, and tried to fill in what I thought it should be, and he didn’t have any specific drum parts or bass parts or any of that. We developed that from playing together.

TP: There’s a recording on Riverside of a gig at the Vanguard. Do you remember the circumstances of that recording? Were you playing as an opening act for another band?

HEATH: No. I think we were the only group in there.

TP: I remember seeing old handbills, and Ahmad Jamal would be opening for Miles or something.

HEATH: No, we weren’t a part of anything like that. We had our own week down there when we did our recording.

TP: Were there good crowds? Was he very popular?

HEATH: Yeah. He had a lot of fans.

TP: Because of those tunes.

HEATH: Yeah, a lot of people liked them.

TP: Were those tunes like “Moanin’” and “Dat Dere” and “Dis Here” on jukeboxes?

HEATH: No. I don’t remember hearing them on jukeboxes until the vocal recordings came around, with Jon Hendricks and Annie Ross and those people. When they started doing them, then it took on a whole nother character.

TP: Would the music evolve over a week, or once the music was set, was it set?

HEATH: No, we played together. So it changed. Whenever he did something, we would follow him. Or if we did something that he liked, he would follow us. That’s how we developed. That’s how the Miles Davis band developed. That was the way in those days. Sitting down and having rehearsals with parts and “you do this and I…” – that wasn’t a part of it. We were a working trio, so every night was a rehearsal.

TP: Do you happen to recall the year the trio started functioning as a working trio? Would that have been around ‘60? When he left Cannonball…

HEATH: I would say yes. But I’m sure you can look back and get some records on it.

TP: But you had been out on the road with J.J., and you were playing drums on a lot of sessions, particularly on Riverside, and Jimmy had a relationship with Riverside at the time as well. Is there any particular quality about him that you’d want people to know about?

HEATH: No. I think he was just a person, and he was a decent person, and I never saw him do anything wrong to anybody.

TP: Any injuries he causes were to himself.

HEATH: Yeah, he did, like we all did during those days.

TP: But he sure paid a heavy price.

HEATH: Yeah, he did. He got on out of here really young.

TP: Your relationship sort of ended around ‘63-’64? You didn’t see much of him after that?

HEATH: I don’t know where Bobby was, but I was traveling around in New York with different people and playing with different groups and traveling myself, and I kind of lost touch with Bobby. I mean, I talked to him whenever I’d see him somewhere.

TP: I think he was a victim of the way the sound of the music changed then in some ways. Did the trio travel?

HEATH: We did a West Coast tour. We went to Detroit; I remember that. We went out to California and the Jazz Workshop out there. We did a lot of playing around New York and in the New York area, the Village Gate and places like that around the city. Yeah, we played quite a bit, for maybe two or three years.

TP: How much would you say you were on the road?

HEATH: Well, our traveling wasn’t that intense.

TP: So it wasn’t like you’d be in a car for 30 weeks a year, from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to Detroit. You didn’t do that circuit.

HEATH: No. Most of the times, we flew. We were flying.

TP: Was he easy to play with?

HEATH: Yeah. Well, I can say that I always felt that we were all in the same place in our development. I can’t say that Bobby was any greater than anybody else in the band, and neither was I, and neither was Ron Carter. We were all just kind of developing and trying to find our way.

TP: But he was the composer. I guess that set him off.

HEATH: He was the composer and he was the leader. He got the gigs. So that made him a little different.

TP: Do you remember who was the manager or the agent?

HEATH: I think Orrin did the California trip. I don’t remember who did the other stuff.

Kenny Barron on Bobby Timmons:

TP: Did you get to know Bobby Timmons pretty well?

BARRON: I didn’t know him in Philly. Only from seeing him in New York.

TP: Did you get to know him in New York?

BARRON: Not well.

TP: Were you checking his stuff out?

BARRON: Oh yeah. Actually, the first time I ever heard his name is when I was in junior high school, in my music class. One day we had a substitute teacher, and she was asking if anybody liked jazz, and a few people raised their hands. Then she said… This was a black woman. She said, ‘I have a cousin named Bobby Timmons, who plays piano with Chet Baker.” That’s the first time I heard his name.

TP: But you never caught him around Philly.

BARRON: No, I didn’t meet him until I moved to New York.

TP: Did you like the trio stuff?

BARRON: Oh yeah. I did.

TP: Did you ever play those hits, “Dat Dere,” “Dis Here”?

BARRON: Yeah, I’ve played them.

TP: What are they like to play?

BARRON: They’re fun. They’re fun to play on.

TP: Are they tricky? Are there things in them that go beyond the obvious? Did he put twists and turns in his stuff?

BARRON: Oh yeah. When you can have somebody write lyrics for your stuff, that means there’s something there.Reggie Workman on Bobby Timmons:

TP: Is there anything you can tell me about your recollections about Bobby Timmons?

WORKMAN: Let me turn the page. The mental page.

TP: I know you grew up in a different part of Philly, and you’re three years younger. But I figure you must have crossed paths at various points.

WORKMAN: Of course. You know, the music community is very small — actually worldwide. No matter where you go, you always run into people who are thinking somewhat in the same direction that you are. Therefore, I ran into Bobby Timmons’ neighbors, and the Heath brothers, and Bobby Green and all the guys down in South Philadelphia often, because whatever was happening, if there was something musical happening, one of those persons would be there — and Bobby was often on the scene. I remember him as a young man, his brilliance, his jovial attitude, and his depth of soul — or depth of being, I should say. And it always turned up in the music.

You know who reminded me of him when I first saw him a lot at the school was Carlos McKinney. The way that Carlos McKinney is now, Bobby used to be when he was young. He was always an ardent dresser, he was always a very neat person in his music, very neat in his personality, and very witty as far as being a person was concerned. That always turns up in the music. And he’s always reflected his experience in his music, no matter what he was doing. You could hear… And he always had his personal voice, no matter what he was doing. No matter what kind of job he was doing, you would know that was Bobby Timmons doing it.

TP: This being in Philly before he came to New York, as well as after…

WORKMAN: That was Bobby. And that was the aesthetic of the music then. Back in those days, that was as much of a thing to strive for as playing music right, was to find out this voice is MINE; this is the way that I express myself, and this is the way… Therefore, anybody you hear from the era that Bobby lived, you know who they are. You can hear who they are without question when you hear their audio sound.

TP: Were you in the Messengers at the same time as he?

WORKMAN: No. He was in the Messengers before I was.

TP: I think he did it twice, in ’59, the Moanin’ session, and then he came back in ’61, before Cedar came in. Were you ever part of his trio?

WORKMAN: Well, we worked around Philadelphia on occasion.

TP: What was he like as a leader? Was he very organized, did he have…

WORKMAN: That I don’t recall.

TP: Was the music stimulating to play? Were there challenges? Did it go beyond the basic bass function?

WORKMAN: Most of the time when we worked, the challenge was fulfilling the engagement, whatever it was calling for. Because there are many different types of things we had to do. We didn’t come together that often, but when we came together, it was because of some situation around Philadelphia where we happened to cross paths, and instead of Eddie Matthias or instead of Spanky or instead of Garrison, I might be on the scene. It was seldom, but it happened.

TP: So those were the bass players he played with most often in Philly.

WORKMAN: That I can remember. Of course, there was Jimmy Bond, there was Jimmy Rowser, there was Jymie Merritt. There were so many bass players from Philly that when you got a chance to cross paths with one of the musicians, you were lucky. Of course, I was young then. I was just honing my craft, just beginning to develop, and I was from a different part of town.

TP: At that time, would his scene be mostly in Philly’s jazz clubs, or would he be playing dances and parties…

WORKMAN: We all had to do everything. We all had to do jazz clubs as well as dances… Dances and parties were as much a part of the… As you know about the Savoy Ballroom with Charlie Parker, they were as much a part of the arena in our community as any club or any other place. Cabarets and parties and dance clubs, and special occasions were… That’s where the music was heard. That’s where the music was made.

TP: It was part of the community.

WORKMAN: That’s right.

Cedar Walton on Bobby Timmons:

TP: Did you know Bobby Timmons pretty well?

WALTON: Pretty well, yeah.

TP: I’m doing a liner note for a best-of compilation. Was he in New York when you got here?

WALTON: Probably so. I didn’t meet him until he joined the Messengers. The mother of my three children was friendly with his wife, and there was a Bobby Timmons, Jr. I think I got better acquainted with him when he was in the Messengers. But he had gigs with Chet Baker and Kenny Baker, gigs all around.

TP: Well, he got famous with “Moanin’” with the Messengers, then he went with Cannonball for a year, then he went with the Messengers for a bit, and then you joined the Messengers.

WALTON: Right. I replaced him.

TP: Did he leave just because he had so many trio gigs?

WALTON: That was for him to know and me to find out. I just got the call. Where he went and what he did, I didn’t… But probably so.

TP: What did you think of his trio at the time?

WALTON: I thought it was fine. It would be hard for me to find fault with anything. He had Ron Carter and Tootie Heath, as I recall, on his first trio outing. But it might not have been his first. It’s the first one I know.

TP: He recorded with Sam Jones and Jimmy Cobb when he was with Cannonball, but when he got the trio working, it was with Tootie and Ron Carter. He grew up in Philly with Tootie. What kind of person was he?

WALTON: That’s a great question. All I know is he was the son of a minister, and moved into a building on Sterling Place in Brooklyn with Estrella and Bobby, Jr. Freddie Hubbard was a neighbor as well as Louis Hayes. But very shortly after that, Bobby made his home in the Village.

TP: East 5th Street. Tootie said they had an apartment on East 5th Street.

WALTON: Right. But he ended up in the West Village, hanging out at Boomer’s. His favorite bars were over on that side by the time I caught up with him.

TP: Was he a witty guy? A friendly guy?

WALTON: Sure. A typical Philadelphia type. I hesitate to…

TP: What’s a typical Philadelphia type?

WALTON: Joking all the time.

TP: Good dresser, too.

WALTON: Yeah, he did care about his wardrobe.

TP: Did you play his tunes?

WALTON: Yeah. I had to play “Moanin’” when I joined the Messengers, and also “Dat Dere.” I don’t think we played “Dis Here” but we played “Dat Dere.”

TP: Did you play his arrangements?

WALTON: Yes, they were Messengers arrangements that were very accessible to anybody with any kind of talent. You could play them, in my estimation. I remember asking Walter Davis when he joined the Messengers for a little period. I said, “Oh, man, you got to play ‘Moanin’ and all that?” I was hardcore then. I couldn’t imagine any… But then when I got there, I found myself enjoying playing it.

TP: Did those tunes pose any challenges for you?

WALTON: Certainly. They were very simple, so you had to make something happen with them, and that was a challenge. They weren’t difficult like “Tempus Fugit” or “Un Poco Loco” or things like that. They were simple and deliberately aimed at the commercial market.

Benny Golson I think composed the bridge to “Moanin’.” We used to do that all the time without any qualms. I remember writing a bridge to “Seven Minds” by Sam Jones. I actually wrote the ending of “Naima.” Mr. Coltrane had the chords. He said, “Cedar, what would you do with this I-IV, I-IV, I-IV?” I said, “Well, you could just go right up the scale.” And he kept it in. Those kind of things were just regular things to do in those days. I’m talking about the ‘60s, not too far back – but far enough.

Bobby was a wild cat. He could drink, too.Benny Golson on Bobby Timmons:

TP: I’m under the impression that you recruited Bobby Timmons into the Jazz Messengers.

GOLSON: Right.

TP: How did you know him? What was your acquaintance with him in Philadelphia?

GOLSON: I wasn’t acquainted with him in Philly. But I had listened to what he had done. He was working with Chet Baker when I heard him. I didn’t really know him, but I liked what he did, and therefore, I recommended him on that basis. Well, I knew him superficially, but I didn’t really know him.

TP: But you knew him from the Philly connection.

GOLSON: I didn’t know him from Philly. He was a different generation. He was much younger. I was gone by the time he started to make a little noise.

TP: He was in New York by that time.

GOLSON: He was in New York, yes.

TP: What was it about his sound that appealed to you?

GOLSON: Well, he was inventive, and he could play a lot of things. He wasn’t locked up in a cylinder. He was sort of, well, he could play bebop, or he could play this, he could play funky… “Moanin’,” for example. And I thought it was the element that Art needed. He hadn’t had anybody quite like Bobby.

TP: Because of Art’s penchant for backbeats and shuffles, you wanted somebody who could provide that?

GOLSON: No. It was to find somebody who could go here or they could go there, rather than walking on a single corridor. I thought he was a little broader. He was on a boulevard rather than a narrow street.

TP: I know you brought him into the band, but you weren’t in the band that much longer once he was in it

GOLSON: About a year.

TP: So you got to know him fairly well, I’d think.

GOLSON: All of it happened within a year.

TP: Tell me what you can tell me about him personally. People say he had a very good sense of humor, he was amiable, a good dresser…

GOLSON: Absolutely. All of those things. He was clothes-conscious, he and Lee. Every night, they had a contest going on!

TP: Around then, it was chukkah-boot time, wasn’t it?

GOLSON: They had the boots, yeah, and the pants were cut a little high so you could see the boots. I’m telling you, they were a card, those two guys!

TP: Two wild young men.

GOLSON: And they used to play this little funky thing in between the tunes, this little lick, and I got used to hearing it, and he would play it and he would say, “Ah, that sure is funky,” and I’d say, “Sure is.” We were in Detroit when I really started to listen to it. We got to Columbus, Ohio, I called a rehearsal, and I said to Bobby… We had everything down. He said, “Why are we going to rehearse.” I said, “You know that little lick you play?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “You got eight bars; all you need is another 8 bars on the bridge.” He said, “Oh, that’s nothing; that’s just a little lick.” I said, “No, Bobby, I hear something else. Why don’t you go up on the bandstand…” We were in the club. Nobody was there during the day; they were washing glasses and stuff. I said, “We’ll go sit over here and just lollygag, and you compose a bridge.” So we went over, and in about half-an-hour he said, “Come and listen,” and then he played it. I said, “Hmm, that’s not really like the …(?)… 8 bars,” Bobby. I said, “No, this has got to be your tune, Bobby.” I said, “Why don’t you try again, and we’ll go over here and talk some more.” “Okay, all right,” and he did something, and in about 15 minutes he called me, and said, “Well, what do you think?” I could see he didn’t think much of it. He played it, and I said, “That’s it.” I said, “Come on, Lee, let’s learn it.” We learned it, and I said, “We’re going to play it tonight, and as we play it, I’m going announce it, and let the people know that this is the first time they’re hearing something that they’ve never heard before.” He didn’t have a title for it either then. I said, “I’m going to observe the audience, and they’ll tell us whether it’s of any value or not.” I said, “Bobby, you’ve got to give it a name now.” He said, “Well, I don’t know.” “Well, what does it sound like?” He said, “Well, it sounds like moaning.” I said, “Good, let’s call it ‘Moanin’.”

TP: And it became a hit.

GOLSON: Oh, absolutely.

TP: The audience responded to it right away?

GOLSON: Oh yeah. That and “Blues March.” Those uplifted the whole album.

TP: If I’m reading between the lines, it sounds like for him, that it wasn’t… You might think it was a natural thing from his being in the church…

GOLSON: No.

TP: But he was thinking about bebop, and he needed to be pushed to do these kind of tunes…

GOLSON: Oh, no. It was there. Now, he MIGHT have been feeling like that because of the church, but I don’t think that the church was the primary influence on WHAT he was playing. Because Bobby could play funky! Many times he did play funky. I don’t think it necessarily had anything to do with the church. He was just feeling that way. People say that and try to make it sound psychological.

TP: Well, he learned to play in the church and had all that experience when he was young…

GOLSON: Well, he did it. But Ted, it was intuitive.

TP: On this CD, there are trio versions of “Dis Here” and “Dat Dere” and “So Tired” and stuff like this. Did he write those then to capitalize on…

GOLSON: Yes.

TP: Were you around at that time or not?

GOLSON: No. That came after I was gone.

TP: Did you continue to stay in touch after leaving the Messengers?

GOLSON: No. Just seeing him when I happened to see him. No deep phone calls or anything like that. I’d just run into him, “Hey, how you doing?” – like that.

TP: Do you recall any impressions you had of his trio?

GOLSON: I don’t remember much about the trio. I can’t recall as we talk the natuure of the trio. I don’t even remember who was in the trio.

TP: He worked with Ron Carter and Tootie Heath, and also with Sam Jones & Cannonball.

GOLSON: I’d forgotten all about Ron Carter.

TP: But you brought him in from hearing him on the scene, and he seemed like good fresh blood for Art.

GOLSON: I brought him in on the basis of what I heard. It wasn’t that I knew him. It was just on the basis of what he played, his musical concept. Then I got to know him.

TP: Can you give me any impressions about him just from that year?

GOLSON: Well, this was important to me. He had no ego about him. [LISTENED TO BENNY AND RESPECTED HIM AS MUSICAL DIRECTOR] [INAUDIBLE, BREAKS UP]
He was always upbeat. He was never downbeat. And he never maligned anybody. If he did, it would be in a humorous way, someone’s bad feet, the way he walks or something. But no, he was all right.

TP: So his tunes reflect his personality, then.

GOLSON: Absolutely. “Dis Here” and “Dat Dere,” that was Bobby. Some people think he was just a funky piano player, but no, he could get into things.

TP: Well, there’s an “Old Devil Moon” where he runs off these fleet Bud Powell lines, and on another there are some Dameronian voicings.

GOLSON: I liked the way he played. Of course, it’s a different time. But then he was right on the cutting edge. And I thought that he would work well with the Messengers, and he did. That “Moanin’” thing helped quite a bit. Because it was epochal, that group in 1958 with Lee Morgan, Bobby Timmons, Jymie Merritt, and me. That’s when things changed. It was because of Bobby and Lee, and my composing, and “Moanin’.” When Art used to announce the All-Star Jazz Messengers, the regular group was there, but we were like an adjunct to it, and we’d come out for the second half of the show and play with them, and when he got to me, he’d say I was the one that started it all. That was kind of confusing, because he had that group together years before I came on the scene. But he was talking about that band from that time. Because during that time, when I joined the band, he wasn’t making any kind of money. But when I left, he was making money, I saw he got the right bookings… Because everybody listened to me. Looking back in retrospect, why did they listen to such a green kid? [ETC.] I said, “That picture has to go on the cover,” the booking office didn’t (?) the concert in Town Hall or Carnegie Hall. “But why hasn’t he been to Europe? Send us to Europe.” “We’ve got to wear uniforms, Art.” After the band broke up, he would come to me: “What do you think I should do here?” But that has nothing to do with Bobby Timmons.

There was the spirit of the whole thing. And those guys were exactly right for that group.

Ron Carter on Bobby Timmons:

TP: When did you first encounter each other? How did you first break bread musically?

CARTER: It was probably on some dates for Riverside Records on which he was a sideman, earlier Riverside dates on which Orrin Keepnews as a producer. Then he put together the trio, and we flew to the Jazz Workshop down in North Beach. We rehearsed with Tootie Heath… At the time, Riverside Records had a little studio across the street from the President Hotel on West 48th Street. So we rehearsed a couple of days, to learn the library, and went out to California, to San Francisco the next day and did a week there. Then we went to the Purple Orchid in Los Angeles, came east and did a gig in Detroit, and went to a place in Philadelphia…

TP: So when you did Live At the Vanguard, you’d been on the road a month. What was his attitude towards rehearsing and the sound of the group? Was he very definite about how he wanted pieces to sound?

CARTER: I think he trusted that… He liked Ahmad Jamal’s sound of the trio. That was one of our favorite groups at the time.

TP: He liked Ahmad Jamal’s sound.

CARTER: And he liked the sound of Red Garland’s trio with Paul Chambers and Arthur Taylor. He knew Oscar Peterson’s trio with Herb Ellis and Ray Brown. Eventually, the sound of the trio developed as we matured, as we got more gigs, and got the kind of sound we were looking for…

TP: So your interpretation of the material molded into what the group sound became.

CARTER: We dealt with …[INAUDIBLE]… what the first couple of choruses of the song would sound like, and then we were on our own to develop whatever we saw fit for the remainder of the arrangement of the tune.

TP: Did the sound change from week to week? Was he improvising a lot within the format of the trio from one night to another? Would his solos vary?

CARTER: He always remembered my basslines from the other night. I mean, I don’t think great musicians wake up in the middle of the gig and play something that no one ever heard before. I think great players get to that zone by developing what they stumbled on the night before, or the set before, or the chorus before. He’d remember what had almost worked the night before, or an idea really sounded good, and can we play the same idea in a different key, or can we play it slower, or can we play a bridge in the ..(?)… and develop another kind of way to make the song work.

TP: Talk a bit about the dynamics of his compositions.
CARTER: They were simple. He wrote nice tunes or some ballads. He wrote some interesting songs, but he was not a composer in like Benny Golson, or other composers that I could think of. He was a wonderful improviser. He had the ability to play the melody and song different for the band but not for the audience. The band could tell the difference from night to night in the ..(?).. of the melody, and it let us know that we had even more range to develop our melodies as the gig wore on.

TP: Who would say were his main influences?

CARTER: Bud Powell as far playing the piano was concerned. He was aware of Ahmad Jamal’s approach and he played block chords like Red Garland could do, but his primary infiuence would be Bud Powell.

The trio had two or three gigs after the Vanguard, and then kind of separated. Bobby was staying in town more. We did some duo gigs before he died, working in and out of the Village, at the Lion’s Head… He was getting sick even along the way. The Needle’s Eye. He would play at Boomer’s.

He was very giving, very loyal, played every night like it was his last chance to get it right.

TP: Would you consider his music a reflection of his personality in any palpable way?

CARTER: I’ve never seen how someone’s music can be interpreted as though it were HIM. [INAUDIBLE] I’m not sure how you can call “Moanin’” indicative of his giving personality or “Dis Here” with the fact that he would go to the mat for you. I don’t know how you can find that in his tunes.

TP: So he knew what to do as a leader.

CARTER: Absolutely.

TP: And he had a firm and distinctive point of view, would you say?

CARTER: Well, it wasn’t rigid. He would accept input. I’d say, “Bobby, that ain’t working, man; can we find something else to do with that?” He’d say, “Well, what?” And if my idea worked, that would be a part of it. Or if Tootie would say, “Bobby, let’s try to do this,” and Bobby would say, “I don’t know, man; let’s see how it goes.” So he was open to any suggestion, and as a leader he would determine whether that suggestion fit the musical direction he had in mind. Good leaders do that.

It’s the 91st birth anniversary of the late baritone saxophonist Cecil Payne, who passed away six years ago. Despite various physical ailments, he was performing at a high level until into the early aughts. In 2000, I had an opportunity to write the liner notes for a Delmark recording, his fourth, titled Live At The Jazz Showcase, with Eric Alexander, Jim Rotondi, Harold Mabern, John Webber and Joe Farnsworth. I’ve appended first the liner note, and then the unedited interview with Mr. Payne.

Cecil Payne, Chick, Boom: Live At The Jazz Showcase:

“People know what a Mambo is, they know what a waltz is, and they know what a tango is, but they don’t know what jazz is,” says Cecil Payne, who, from the perspective of 78 years on the planet, 60 spent as a working musician, has some wisdom on the subject. “When you play Jazz, you play Chick-a-Boom, Chick-a-Boom, Chick-a-Boom. It’s been the beat of jazz from the beginning, from Louis Armstrong and Baby Dodds. If you don’t hear that beat, it ain’t jazz.”

On “Live At the Jazz Showcase,” culled from three revelrous evenings in the hospitable ambiance of the venerable Chicago room, Payne and his hardcore unit — all but pianist Harold Mabern are 40 to 45 years his junior — apply that seemingly elementary dictum with a vengeance, conversing with a swinging simpatico that devastates any presumption of a generation gap. The dialogue began one evening in 1993, when tenorist Eric Alexander came to Augie’s — the Upper West Side saloon that nurtured many of New York’s finest during the ’90s — to jam with Payne, the late tenor giant Junior Cook, and master-of-all-tempos trapsetter Joe Farnsworth.

“I had retired from music,” Payne recalls, “but I would take the bus to New York to play with Junior and Joe, because there’s something about playing with friends where you don’t have to worry about wrong notes. I was having a great time. I still am.

“From the first tune Eric played that night, I thought he was going to be great.’ He had style. He still has. And everybody now is way better than they were eight years ago. They’ve been keeping me alive, putting fire behind me. It’s not only the spirit of their playing, but these jokers are like computers in music theory. I keep learning from them. We didn’t have any music when we made this date, and Eric created the background harmonies.”

The sentiment is mutual. “Cecil has a certain economy in his playing,” says Alexander, who along with Farnsworth and authoritative trumpeter Jim Rotondi comprise half of One For All, a cooperative sextet with five records under its belt whose members have evolved into consequential voices during their long association. “In his soloing and writing he always seems to break down any series of chord progressions or melodies to the true essence of the tune. I’ve never heard Cecil play anything corny or extraneous or trivial. Then, his time is ridiculous, and he gets the most pleasing baritone saxophone sound I’ve heard. A lot of times you hear baritone saxophonists bark or go heavy on the tongue, but Cecil’s approach is very light. I think it comes from the fact that he was originally an alto player, and in addition he liked Lester Young, and tried to transfer that approach to the baritone. He is from the era that we all wish we were from, and he is part of that revolution in the music that we wish we could have been part of. For us, it’s a treat to be associated with him.”

Payne enthusiastically cosigns his passion for the President, manifested here by “Ding-A-Ling,” a modernist reworking of the Basie classic “Jive At Five,” and by the perfectly timed quote of “Taxi War Dance” that he deploys to springboard into the turnback of his solo on “Bosco,” a Latin rouser in B-flat-minor.

“When I was about 13, I heard Lester Young’s 2-bar break on ‘Honeysuckle Rose’ by Count Basie,” the Brooklyn native remembers. “I told my father, ‘Buy me a saxophone!’ Every now and then I heard Basie at Bedford and Atlantic Avenues, and I stayed by that bandstand all night to watch Lester Young. His horn was all green in between the keys! But the sound that came out was something else. My main influence was listening to Lester Young. I bought every record that came out. I learned every note, every solo.”

Payne’s father not only bought him an alto, but took him to neighborhood celebrity Pete Brown, the renowned jump alto saxophonist, for lessons at a quarter a pop. By 19, Payne was “playing alto parts” in a band led by Boys High School classmate Max Roach (personnel included ur-boppers Victor Coulson [trumpet], Allen Tinney [piano], Leonard Gaskin [bass] and, for a short time, Charlie Parker) at Georgie Jay’s Taproom at 78th Street and Broadway for a 9-to-3 shift; he occasionally accompanied Roach to Monroe’s Uptown House in Harlem to play the 4-to-8 a.m. afterhours shift. He caught the ear of proprietor Clark Monroe; when Payne emerged from three years in the Service, Monroe, walking the walk on his determination to “get jobs for all my boys that come out of the Army,” sent the newly decommissioned young saxman to Roy Eldridge, who was looking for an alto player for a fortnight gig at the Spotlite, the 52nd Street club that Monroe managed.

“When I got there,” Payne relates, “Roy Eldridge told me he’d just hired Sahib Shihab to play alto. I sat through the whole rehearsal, listening to all the great players, and when they finished, Roy said, ‘Where can I find a baritone player?’ I had a baritone I’d played in a stock band when I was 15, and he said, ‘Bring it tomorrow.’ Dizzy came in to see Roy, and asked me if I could come to the Savoy Ballroom, where he was working. When I got there, they were on the bandstand playing, and I put on a uniform jacket and joined them. Thanks to Pete Brown I could read anything, and then I took a solo in B-flat, maybe ‘I Got Rhythm’ — I couldn’t play much else. Everybody, Moody and all them, just grinned.”

During Payne’s two years with Gillespie he recorded well-parsed, Prez-inflected solos on “Ow!” and “Stay On It” that cemented his rep as bebop’s first baritonist. On a Fall 1948 session with James Moody and Chano Pozo he waxed the oft-recorded “Cu-Ba,” kicking off a career as a composer of pungent melodies and protein-rich harmonic progressions whose logic masks a subtle, complex sensibility. That Payne retains the fire of the nascent bop years is evident in the chopbusting set-closer “Cit Sac” (it’s “Lover” in B-flat, with a sly quote of “Yes, Sir, That’s My Baby” on the bridge). That he has not forgotten the passions that fueled that fire is clear on “You Will Be Mine Tonight,” a lyric champagne before the fireplace ballad of 1999 vintage inspired by memories of an Army buddy bandmate’s amorous adventures in a hotel room while on the road directly after the war.

Payne’s subsequent c.v. includes big band stints with Illinois Jacquet, Machito, Woody Herman and Count Basie, not to mention substantial combo work with the likes of fellow Brooklynites Randy Weston, Duke Jordan, Wynton Kelly, Kenny Dorham, and the indefatigably creative Harold Mabern, a friend and colleague for forty years. There isn’t much jazz history he hasn’t seen or experienced.

“Cecil knows a lot, and if you want to find out what he really knows, you have to sit down and talk to him and ask him questions,” Alexander notes. “When he explains how he approaches certain things, it seems so obvious and simple that you can’t believe you didn’t already think of it. It’s the most obvious way, but it’s also the way that most people never even get to — it’s in front of their face, and they look right past it. I think that explains a lot about the directness and honesty in his playing. There’s no B.S.”

You’ll hear that directness and honesty in the declamations of all members on Chick, Boom, a session providing abundant proof that Cecil Payne’s DNA contains no atavistic genes. Resolutely optimistic, Payne unfailingly wields his memories and experience as a springboard to future explorations and conversations framed by the jazz lifebeat.

Which is neither BOOM-CHICK nor BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM-CHICK. In case you didn’t hear him clearly before, Payne reiterates what it is: “It’s Chick-boom, chick-boom, chick-boom, and-one, and-two, and… Before you talk, you have to open your mouth. That’s ‘and.’ Then before you stomp your feet, you lift it up. That’s ‘and-one.’ Then you bring it down to the ‘and-boom.’ Chick-boom. It’s very easy. It’s not very hard to understand what jazz is.”

* * *

Interview with Cecil Payne for Liner Notes:

TP: This is your fourth record for Delmark, and on each one Eric Alexander has been by your side. It sounds like you got a lot of inspiration from coming down to these sessions at Augie’s and hearing these guys, and that it’s been a reciprocal inspiration — they’ve obviously been inspired by you. But it’s like a context or framework to just do your thing.

PAYNE: What you’re saying is true. It started in 1992 when I retired. I was living in Camden, and I wasn’t playing much, just in some of the clubs here. I ran into a friend, Junior Cook, the tenor player. I had a Jazzmobile to do in New York. I called everybody up, but I didn’t have a drummer. I said, “Can you find me a drummer, man?” He said, “Don’t worry about it. I’ll get you drummer.” I said, “Who is it?” He said, “Don’t worry about it!” Up to the last minute I was thinking about it, because drummers have to play the right beat and keep the groove. So here comes the drummer. He has a blue suit on and a tie, and that was Joe Farnsworth. I say, “Is that the cat?” He says, “Yeah.” I said, “Oh my goodness.” He didn’t look that good. But when we’d crossed the point where we’d played the first number, I turned to Junior and said, “Where did you find this cat?” That was Joe Farnsworth. And he’s a hundred times better now than he was then.

TP: He sounds like no one else but him now.

PAYNE: Yeah. So it was me, him and Junior working at Augie’s. Every weekend I would go to New York, just to play, because there’s something about playing when you don’t have to worry about wrong notes, just getting yourself together and playing with friends that you know and have the same feeling. I was having a great time. I still am. That’s when Eric Alexander came down to play at Augie’s. The first tune he played, I said, “Man, this cat is going to be great.” Because he had style, too. He still has. Everybody now is way better than they were eight years ago. They’ve been keeping me alive, putting fire behind me.

TP: You just said a word that’s very interesting to me. You’re able to have a conversation with these guys, and they’re all about 40-45 years younger than you. That’s an amazing thing about jazz, isn’t it.

PAYNE: Yeah, with jazz you don’t have to speak a language. You can go to any country in the world and play with musicians, and you understand each other. It’s a feeling for the music.

TP: So what you’re saying is that playing with these guys, because they’ve mastered the fundamentals and they’re such fluent musicians, allows you to be free.

PAYNE: Yeah, but it’s more than that. You said fundamentals. See, these jokers are like computers in music theory. See, there’s not only the spirit of playing, but they also know everything they play on piano and the chord changes and the notes and everything they do. They’re very advanced. So it keeps me learning from them, too. In the old days sometimes you’d play by ear, and then there were chords you’d play. But these young musicians, they have computer minds that they can just stand up and talk to you about it ‘and tell you what note. When we made the record date, Eric was the one who could create the harmony in the background at the date, and we didn’t have any music. He, Jim Rotondi and Steve Davis all work together. They’re like best friends. I feel real comfortable when I play with them…for my last few days.

TP: And Harold Mabern is also a constant on these records.

PAYNE: Mabern is my teacher! [LAUGHS] We know each other from way back, since the ’50s.

TP: He got to Chicago in ’56 or ’57 and then New York at the beginning of the ’60s.

PAYNE: He moved to Brooklyn. We lived right near each other. Mabern is my mentor, man. He knows that piano. He’s like the foundation.

TP: He’s one of the few with a real two-hand approach to bebop language.

PAYNE: Oh yeah, he knows that.

TP: Say a little something about each of the tunes. “Chick, Boom.”

PAYNE: “Chick, Boom.” Most people say, “What is jazz?” Nobody knows what Jazz is. They know what a Mambo is. They know what a waltz is. They know what a tango is. But they don’t know what Jazz is. Jazz is Chick-Boom. It’s not Boom-Chick. When you play Jazz, you play Chick-Boom, Chick-Boom, Chick-Boom. That’s Jazz, “Chick-a-Boom, Chick-a-Boom. It’s not BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM-CHICK. If you don’t hear that beat, it ain’t jazz. Chick-boom, chick-boom, chick-boom, and-one, and-two, and… Before you talk, you have to open your mouth. That’s “and.” Then before you stomp your feet, you lift it up. That’s “and-one.” Then you bring it down to the “and-boom.” “Chick-boom.” It’s very easy. It’s not very hard to understand what jazz is.

TP: You were born in 1922 and you started playing before Bebop. Is that the beat you remember from when you were first playing, and it continued in various forms after you played with Dizzy and so on?

PAYNE: You’re going too far ahead. See, when I was younger, the only thing I ever heard was calypsos, because my parents are from Barbados. When I went to public school and was about 13, we moved into a house that had a victrola, and somebody had left a record on there, which was a Count Basie record, “Honeysuckle Rose,” and when they put it on I heard Lester Young make this 2-bar break. I told my father, “buy me a saxophone!” He bought me an alto. There was a musician my father used to hear on Gates Avenue named Pete Brown. We lived right by this 129 public school, and my father asked him if he could give me lessons, and he said yes. 25 cents a lesson.

TP: So you studied with Pete Brown, one of the first jump alto players.

PAYNE: I think I heard Pete Brown play once. I never heard him play jazz. But he taught me how to read. If I came there and didn’t know the lesson, he would say, “Go home, man, and read and study.”

TP: So he’d embarrass you into learning it.

PAYNE: That’s right. He made me… I didn’t know how to solo. When I went to high school, at Boys High School, I met Max Roach. I didn’t know I was older than him until recently. There were some local bands we played with. I played with some big bands, just reading music from those stock arrangements by Count Basie and the Benny Goodman band. Max played with another group, and we became friends going to school.

TP: Did the big bands play in Brooklyn? Did Basie or Ellington or Lunceford play the Paramount Theater?

PAYNE: Every now and then, if I was lucky enough, I could hear Count Basie up at Bedford Avenue and Atlantic in Brooklyn. And I stayed by that bandstand all night.

TP: So you could watch Lester Young.

PAYNE: [LAUGHS] His horn was green! In between the keys, man, it was all green. But the sound that came out was something else. Nobody had a sound like Lester Young, man. Paul Quinichette tried to imitate him. But his sound changed after a while, too. Lester got a new horn, and his sound was different.

TP: So you’re coming up playing on alto, and switched to baritone. But that beat, the chick-boom beat, is the beat of jazz and has been since you started playing.

PAYNE: No, it’s been the beat of jazz from the beginning, from Louis Armstrong and all them. That’s the jazz beat. That ain’t from my time. That’s the start of jazz.

TP: It’s the continuity. So the record begins with you stating that this is jazz. Then “Ding-A-Ling.”

PAYNE: That’s a Lester Young tune called “Jive At Five.” I tried to modernize it a little bit.

TP: It made me think of the way Illinois Jacquet might treat it, then I realized that you’d played with Illinois Jacquet.

PAYNE: He’s like a father to me, although he’s only one year older than I am.

TP: You were with him for three years at the turn of the ’50s.

PAYNE: Well, I played with Roy Eldridge in 1946. That’s when Dizzy heard me. He came to hear the Roy Eldridge Band, and he was looking for a baritone player. That was a lucky day for me.

TP: When Dizzy heard you, you were familiar with him, I guess.

PAYNE: In 1943, I went into the Army for three years. I was stationed at Camp Ellis in Peoria, Illinois, for about a year-and-a-half, then I went to Europe. At first I was in the 520th Trucking Regiment, because I had a license. I didn’t have any union card. Then I was in the 1333 Engineers. When the war was over in Europe, we went straight to Okinawa, and they had a band there that I got into. When I came out of the Army, I was a Sergeant in the 219 Army Ground Force Band.

TP: So you were 20 when you went in the Army. [19] Before you went in, you were playing around Brooklyn.

PAYNE: I played with Clarence Berry’s Big Band, and I played with Max Roach’s group in the 78th Street Taproom on Broadway playing parts.

TP: Oh, you played at Georgie Jay’s Taproom?

PAYNE: Yeah, with Allen Tinney and me and Gaskin…

TP: But you were in the Army when Bird came in and played with them.

PAYNE: Bird came in one night and played my horn.

TP: So that’s the first time you met Bird.

PAYNE: Yes. But he wasn’t famous then or nothing. He just came and played it.

TP: Do you have a memory of that?

PAYNE: Well, anybody who played solo was better than I was, because I couldn’t solo at all.

TP: I’ve heard Max Roach talk about that, that he had the gig at Georgie Jay’s, then they’d pack up and go to Minton’s, so they’d wind up playing 12 hours in two different clubs.

PAYNE: Oh, Max got around a lot. I got to go uptown. He got me out of Brooklyn.

TP: So when you got out of the Army…

PAYNE: When I got out of the Army, Clark Monroe, who had an after-hour house where we used to go down… That’s where I heard Bird play. When I got out of the Army, Clark Monroe said, “I get all my boys that come out of the Army jobs.” He said, “Go down and speak to Roy Eldridge; he’s looking for an alto player.” When I went down there, Roy Eldridge said, “I’m sorry, man. I just hired an alto player.” Believe it or not, the alto player was Sahib Shihab. So I sat through the whole rehearsal, listening to all the great players, and when they finished playing Roy Eldridge said, “Where can I find a baritone player?” I said, “I’ve got a baritone.” He said, “Bring it tomorrow.” I had a baritone that I played with Clarence Berry when I was 15, and it was (?) because I only played three notes on it — A-G-E. Leonard Gaskin said, “It sure would sound good if we had a baritone to play those notes.” So my father bought me a baritone sax. $45. In those days that was a whole lot of money. Clarence Berry just led the band; he didn’t play.

TP: So you wound up playing baritone with Roy Eldridge because he needed a baritone player.

PAYNE: We played two weeks on 52nd Street, in Clark Monroe’s club.

TP: That was the Spotlite, that club that Clark Monroe fronted.

PAYNE: That’s it. Dizzy came in to see Roy Eldridge, and asked me if I could come to the Savoy. He was working up there. Back then it was rehearsal. When I got there, they were on the bandstand playing. Bill Graham was playing. I was scared. I was going to go home because I heard the band playing. Anyhow, Bill Graham said, “If he told you to come down, stay, man!” When I went on the bandstand, Bill Graham gave me a uniform jacket, and we sat down there. Thanks to Pete Brown I could read anything, and when I read the music, they were saying, “Oh, man!” Then I took a solo in B-flat, like “I Got Rhythm.” I couldn’t play much else. In those days I wasn’t… You played chords, but you didn’t play chord changes. Anyhow, I played the solo, and everybody, Moody and all them, just grinned. They were happy. But Bill Graham gave me (?).

TP: So you joined Dizzy after Dizzy debuted at the Spotlite. The way Moody tells the story, he joined Dizzy in the mid-summer of ’46 when they were at the Spotlite, the club that Clark Monroe was fronting. You joined Dizzy after Moody had already joined the band, in late ’46, and you took the first solo people really remember was “Stay On It.”

PAYNE: Well, my first tune, my claim to fame, was “Ow!” They called me like the first bebop baritone player.

TP: What do you think of that?

PAYNE: Well, do you remember Serge Chaloff? You ever hear him play? He was playing like that before I ever joined Dizzy.

TP: You must have heard Jack Washington and Harry Carney.

PAYNE: Of course. But I wasn’t playing the baritone then.

TP: Were there any stylistic models for you on baritone, or were you winging it and figuring it out as you went along?

PAYNE: The only influence was listening to Lester Young’s solos. I bought every record that came out. I learned every note, every solo.

TP: So you know every Lester Young solo by heart.

PAYNE: Mostly, yes. Me and Lee Konitz!

TP: Then “You Will Be Mine Tonight” is your tune? It’s a nice ballad. When did you write it?

PAYNE: Not too long ago. Last year. I was playing with someone, an alto player a good friend who I’d known since the Army days. He’s the one who got me into the band when I was in the Army. I heard the band walking down playing “Reveille,” and when I’d look at them… Vincent (?). He was playing alto in the band and he took me into it. Anyhow, after we came out of the Army, we played in a band (I can’t remember who), and we went on the road, and he had his girlfriend with him. We stayed in separate rooms. They were in the room one night, and you’d hear him chasing his girl around the room. He would say, “I will have you tonight! I will have you tonight.” So when I wrote this tune, I tried to think of him.

TP: You made it sound much more romantic than that.

PAYNE: Well, I changed the words. I said, “You will be mine tonight.” I couldn’t put “I Will Have You Tonight.”

TP: On “Bosco”, midway through your solo, you quoted “Taxi War Dance.”

PAYNE: “Bosco” is my stepson’s name here in Camden. I got married in 1970, and my stepson’s nickname is Bosco.

TP: That sounds like some of the things you did with Duke Jordan, like “Scotch Blues” and things like that.

PAYNE: I played with Duke and K.D. for years. We played together all the time.

TP: You were very close to K.D., too.

PAYNE: Yes. He lived right there in Brooklyn, too. He had six daughters. Miles had five children. Max has a whole lot of children, too. And believe it or not, I don’t have any children, man. I have a stepson.

I started writing way back. Everybody started getting their own music together. So I started getting tunes together. I didn’t actually play them until I went to Europe.

TP: About how many tunes would you say you have copyrighted?

PAYNE: I have a whole lot of tunes. I don’t know how many. Don Sickler has them. Benny Goodman and Charlie Barnet recorded two of my tunes. I did them in collaboration with another fellow, whose name I forget. He’s the one who got me to write the tunes with him.

TP: Were you playing in Latin bands in the ’50s, or did that start when you went with Machito in the early ’60s?

PAYNE: It started with Machito.

TP: Of course you played with Chano Pozo.

PAYNE: Right, with Chano Pozo. But Dizzy didn’t play with no Latin beat. We were just playing swing. But Machito was when I started playing with Latin bands. Their beat is unmistakable! The timbales keep the downbeat, the bass plays 3/4. You can play the same thing on jazz, but you have to turn the beat around. They have their own beat. Jazz is different. It fits, but you have to change that beat around to synchronize it. You can’t play a Latin beat with a jazz beat. You have to play the Latin beat on another beat to make it sound right.

TP: So you played with Machito for three years, and then Woody Herman.

PAYNE: I had stopped playing and went into the real estate business, trying to sell real estate. But I couldn’t sell anybody anything, man. I didn’t care about it.

TP: So you did that in the ’50s, and when you decided to get back into music is when you joined Machito and Woody Herman?

PAYNE: It was 1958 or ’59. I actually had stopped playing, but I did work with Machito, and then I had this thing with the Broadway production of The Connection with Kenny Drew. I didn’t (?) into jazz at that time.

TP: The scene was changing then, too.

PAYNE: Yes. Because in 1957 Coltrane changed everything!

TP: So after “Bosco” we have “Here’s That Rainy Day.” You play flute.

PAYNE: I’m still trying to play the flute. But whoever wrote the tune, the last tune he hits is a minor chord, and I said, “If I record this tune, I’m not going to play a minor chord.” The minor chord makes it sound real down. It’s the same thing with “I Should Care.” When I play that tune, if it wasn’t for the last bar, I wouldn’t even have thought about the tune.

TP: Are you a big fan of singers?

PAYNE: I’m a big fan of singers, but not playing with them.

TP: The last tune is those “Lover” changes, with “Yes, Sir, That’s My Baby” on the bridge. Racehorse. Great set-closer. That’s one of the tunes people liked to play.

PAYNE: Well, Bird played that.

My lucky day was when I got hooked up with those young folks, man. One thing before you leave. When Joe Farnsworth was 27, it was his birthday, and he said to me, “Man, Cecil, I’m 27 years old, man!” I said, “What the heck are you telling me that for? I’m 72.”