03.10.2011 - Conscience and Forgiveness

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JS Saltwater: Gaya do you know if this is the spot for Ways of Knowing? Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, welcome :) JS Saltwater: ok cool ty Fizakaal Wei: so i will stay as long as i can JS Saltwater: we have not been here before, Gaya, should we just have a seat? Gaya Ethaniel: Please, let me get you a link to our wiki. Fizakaal Wei: thank you Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Gaya Ethaniel: Hope you are ok with us posting chat logs. Fizakaal Wei: is this in voice? Gaya Ethaniel: No this will be in text. Fizakaal Wei: ok Gaya Ethaniel: There is a description of today's topic on the home page and links to reports written by regular participants. JS Saltwater: the link to the wiki from this page is broken, fwiw http://mambo.playasbeing.org/index.p...108&Itemid=138 Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Evening all Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Gaya :) Mickorod Renard: hellooo Gaya Ethaniel: Our wiki is here - http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ boxy (alfred.kelberry): *peeks into the window* Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha, Alfred, Liza and Mick :) Liza Deischer: hi everyone Mickorod Renard: :) Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :) Liza Deischer: I can sit today :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Mick! :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): aga girl :) Mickorod Renard: yeaa Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Boxy! Mitsu Ishii: hello all Calvino Rabeni: Well what a surprise to see you here Liza :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hi Mitsu boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :) Liza Deischer: YEEEAAAAHH!!! Liza Deischer: I feel to lazy to change into avy today :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Leave him in Legoland boxy (alfred.kelberry): javascript saltwater? :) Liza Deischer: sorry, I guess a gesture....... :) JS Saltwater: haha Al :) JS Saltwater: first time for that one :) Liza Deischer: Oh I like Avy...... :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): nice hat, cal boxy (alfred.kelberry): very capone Calvino Rabeni: I like Liza's hat too boxy (alfred.kelberry): bunny :) Liza Deischer: ah Cal, your's is more dangerous :) Gaya Ethaniel: :) Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Atari :) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi everyone :) Liza Deischer: hi Atara boxy (alfred.kelberry): atari is a nice nick Aggers (agatha.macbeth): HI Atari :) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :) Mickorod Renard: hi everyone i havnt said hi to JS Saltwater: Hello everyone, I'm new here so will be mostly lurking boxy (alfred.kelberry): no pila today? Gaya Ethaniel: brb Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Well he was looking for the music session yesterday, dunno if he found it Liza Deischer: hi JS :) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Eliza :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): nope, never seen him boxy (alfred.kelberry): eliza :) Liza Deischer: hi Eliza Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Lizzie :))) Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! :)) Mickorod Renard: Hi eliza boxy (alfred.kelberry): meep! Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P Eliza Madrigal: :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): :) JS Saltwater: /me looks for coyote avi Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me pats Boxy's head boxy (alfred.kelberry): :) Calvino Rabeni: I would like to confess ... the topic for today is Conscience, and I did not write any homework for it, and I felt that was "Wrong" but, ... did it anyway now feel a sense of remorse . :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): You have a conscience then Cal :p Fizakaal Wei: no judgements, Calvino :) Mickorod Renard: I am sure we can just follow threads Gaya Ethaniel: [back & reading] Gaya Ethaniel: heheh Cal Mickorod Renard: my conscience seems such a burden sometimes, it holds me back so much from being ruthless Gaya Ethaniel: ? boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, like going to a nude beach? :) JS Saltwater: no that's clotheslessness Mickorod Renard: well, not so much that, that is my lack of confidence Mickorod Renard: well, lack of something Gaya Ethaniel: Well give us an example of being ruthless Mick? Liza Deischer: hmmmm, what is conscience Mickorod Renard: well, maybe strong words, but I was relating to how I feel I could have been more successful had I been less prone to conscience JS Saltwater: (should I register on the forum site and be reading the posts there in order to participate here now?] Calvino Rabeni: No rule, JS, but it would help Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Fox JS Saltwater: k thx Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry to ask another question ... what kind of success do you mean Mick? Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Foxy :) Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Now we have Boxy and Foxy Fox Monacular: Hi everyone:) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): heheh Liza Deischer: hi Fox boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, regret? Mickorod Renard: There is a trend in that to be more successful say at work, one could be more selfish and not consider others Liza Deischer: is that consciousness Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :) Fox Monacular: :) Eliza Mickorod Renard: HI Fox Eliza Madrigal: Seems a false premise Mick... or maybe it depends on what success would be Mickorod Renard: well, i was just trying to get us started Eliza Madrigal: :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Go for it Mick Mickorod Renard: :) Gaya Ethaniel: :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): eliza, i think it's related Eliza Madrigal: yes? Fizakaal Wei: to me conciousness is having the ability to ask yourself if you have consciousness Mickorod Renard: well, wanting to do the right thing instead of just playing statistics Mickorod Renard: I could lie and cheat and get on very well Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I have to duck out early today...my conscience is telling me I have too much work to do :) Mickorod Renard: :) Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, everyone :) Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Atari :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care Atari Eliza Madrigal: Bye Violet, nice to see you boxy (alfred.kelberry): maybe it's a boundary of how far you can go in order to please yourself Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite :) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): And hello Aphro Aphrodite Macbain: Hello! Mickorod Renard: thats a good way to see it Alf Mickorod Renard: Hi Aph Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mck Eliza Madrigal: hm, but could you really, Mick... you could ignore the feeling that 'i don't like this' for a time, but it may bite you later... or get bitten now and take some solace in that, hah Mickorod Renard: exactly, istnt that having a concience though.. Mickorod Renard: I am talking about something more than being found out Mickorod Renard: its about knowing yourself Eliza Madrigal: /me nods JS Saltwater: makes me think of the line "Character is what you are in the dark" Mickorod Renard: and living with that knowledge Liza Deischer: nice line :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): it's an application of conscience, eliza. in case of mick, he wouldn't say undermine a colleague at work to gain some career points. JS Saltwater: Is conscience something different from the "internalized surveillance" that Foucault talks about? Aphrodite Macbain: Does everyone agree that a conscience is something that is learned; that it's not innate? Liza Deischer: sorry I don't know Foucault..... Aggers (agatha.macbeth): I know his pendulum... Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Mickorod Renard: I was thinking it was on those lines JS JS Saltwater: the other one boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, yes JS Saltwater: Michel Foucault Fox Monacular: there are probably elements of social/cultural control... too.. internalized surveillance and also a superego Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Sorry, didn't know there was one JS Saltwater: on the innate question - hmm Fox Monacular: perhaps there are layers... of internalising? Aphrodite Macbain: yes, films, books etc reinforce those values that then effect our conscience Fox Monacular: 'repressive hypothesis' boxy (alfred.kelberry): there are only instincts innately Aphrodite Macbain: along with our parents, the chirch, our teachers, our friends JS Saltwater: but maybe a mechanism for a conscience to form in is innate? Eliza Madrigal: /me nods.. what I would tend toward Mickorod Renard: I have mused with these feelings, even questioning whether I shroud my exterior softness with names like right and having a conscience, but maybe I am too cowardly to be ruthless? Aphrodite Macbain: our cerebral cortex/memory Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Or too nice Mick JS Saltwater: probably just an offshoot of humans' socially constructed self, the internalised other Aphrodite Macbain: exterior softness... nice JS Saltwater: the "admonitory voices" Julian Jaynes talks about Aphrodite Macbain: yes JS Fox Monacular: internalized other... yes I was thinking something similar JS Saltwater: (sorry, stream of conscience :-) Gaya Ethaniel: :) Aphrodite Macbain: haha Fox Monacular: :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): :) Aphrodite Macbain: mine is a torrent Calvino Rabeni: Reading Eliza's report I reflected on how much courage it would take to act more on conscience, .. both to protect the soft heart, and to face the conditions in the world that seem wrong.. so there seems needed both softness and the "roar of a lion" Aphrodite Macbain: What "pricks" our conscience? Aphrodite Macbain: how would it protect our soft heart? Mickorod Renard: knowing something is right gives you the courage Eliza Madrigal: well act on conscience in a way that didn't project onto others seems the tricky part JS Saltwater: good observation Cal, conscience is (ideally) the loving force that has to act with power to have effect, perhaps? Aphrodite Macbain: yes, one person's bad is another persons ok JS Saltwater: yes the "knowing something is right" bit makes me nervous Mick Calvino Rabeni: Or one person's bad is another person's bad-but-numb Aphrodite Macbain: me too JS Gaya Ethaniel: Say more JS? Mickorod Renard: true, there are often two sides of a coin JS Saltwater: many clearly wrong people have known they were right boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, being ruthless against your nature is not productive. eventually, it'll bring more harm and stress than regret about past soft times. Eliza Madrigal: 'good intentions' Aphrodite Macbain: or sometimes more sides Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Indeed Alf Gaya Ethaniel: :) Mickorod Renard: yes Alf Eliza Madrigal: so 'one's own hot spot' seems key to me in considering conscience Mickorod Renard: I am just envious of those who are able to shrug off conscience boxy (alfred.kelberry): first step would be to embrace yourself as you are :) Liza Deischer: /me wonders if Ghadaffi has a consience Eliza Madrigal: :) Alf Aphrodite Macbain: Those without a conscience would be psychotic, wouldn JS Saltwater: Mick, rationalization and sociopathy arent that enviable :) Aphrodite Macbain: t they? Mickorod Renard: I try, but it hurts Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Unlikely Liza Gaya Ethaniel: :) Fizakaal Wei: need to go people, thank you Mickorod Renard: bye Fiz Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Fiz JS Saltwater: see ya Fiz Aggers (agatha.macbeth): C ya Fiz Eliza Madrigal: we say they don't have a conscience, but more likely is that it is horribly deadened, potential not cared for? Liza Deischer: I'm not so sure, is it lack of consious or is it about having the wrong impression..... Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Fizakaal Mickorod Renard: i like equanimity Mickorod Renard: that poses questions Aphrodite Macbain: ?? Eliza Madrigal: equanimity seemed to come up a lot for me thinking about this, too Mickorod Renard: in relation to conscience Aphrodite Macbain: finding a balance means being open minded to new concepts Eliza Madrigal: /me listens, mick... Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Fizakaal :) boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, think of all the wonderful things you could do in the time when you just sit and envy :) Mickorod Renard: trying to find the right path through all these thoughts is hard Calvino Rabeni: One thing that confuses people, is when others are acting according to a different and not well understood set of values .. their acts of conscience may be according to different rules .. not sure if it applies to dictators like Ghadaffi, but it might. Aphrodite Macbain: maybe there isn't a "right" path Mickorod Renard: yes Alf, I am quick to move on when I recognise the feelings Mickorod Renard: yes Cal Eliza Madrigal: yes I was thinking about Dao's report of jury duty... and how I can stand for hours in a cereal aisle thinking of pros and cons to each... how obvious I have to let things become before action Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what Ghadaffi uses to justify what he has done Liza Deischer: the set of values detict the conscience boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, then i see no problem there :) Eliza Madrigal: so hesitant to be 'sure' Liza Deischer: oh, if you listen to his arguments........ I think he really thinks he's right Mickorod Renard: and this too could apply to say a budhist monk who passes through life and doesnt act when seeing things that we may act from conscience? JS Saltwater: good observation Eliza boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, his conscience and the sense of reality have shifted to some unknown realms Eliza Madrigal: being authority and ruler IS all, for some of these dictators... Aphrodite Macbain: we often make snap judgements without weighing thngs at all JS Saltwater: it's the patriarchal imperative run amok Aggers (agatha.macbeth): True Aphrodite Macbain: true boxy Eliza Madrigal: there is nothing else and anything that bumps up against it has to be supressed Gaya Ethaniel: Well it can be a relief to just buy a bag of porridge oats :P Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It can if you're scottish Liza Deischer: even dictators needs justifications for their acts Mickorod Renard: it must come down to values, and these are different to different people Aphrodite Macbain: So. saying someone has a conscience may not indicate that his moral justifications are the same as ours Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes... that's the thing, eventually I make myself grab something... but am I 'sure'? is it 'clear'? sooo rare Calvino Rabeni: The people of most countries, I guess as an average, seem to want "tough" leaders.. at least a lot of them want that in a leader Liza Deischer: maybe being conscious is linked with justification Calvino Rabeni: and they want something different in a spiritual leader Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :) Calvino Rabeni: than in a political executive Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen JS Saltwater: Dictators usually think they are the over-father and that justifies their acts, like the guy in The Shining Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen Aphrodite Macbain: they want someone to think and act for them usually Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yo Zen boxy (alfred.kelberry): imagine a person who has been a sole ruler of the state for 30 years and never heard "no" in his life Liza Deischer: not in Tibet Cal :) Mickorod Renard: the uberman Eliza Madrigal: /me nods JS... Aphrodite Macbain: ubermensch Zen (zen.arado): Hi all sorry for lateness JS Saltwater: "Father Knows Best" with security prisons boxy (alfred.kelberry): zen :) Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen Liza Deischer: hi Zen Eliza Madrigal: well authority, in some paradigms, comes from god and that's it... Mickorod Renard: I sometimes thingk about Ayne Rand..who said something about humans being split between the higher order and the ones who are like cows in the field Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza- apparently most of our decisions are made quickly without much thought- a form of prejudice Calvino Rabeni: When a spiritual leader .. for instance a roshi, has a sexual scandal, there is so much outrage .. it makes me think people are "outsourcing" their moral thinking to the leader, and disappointed and scared when the leader doesn't live up to the expectation, scared perhaps of their own freedom if it comes with moral responsibility JS Saltwater: I need to run, folks, but thx for letting me crash the convo. Hope to be back for the next one. boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'd say that gaddafi and people alike are beyond of scope of our understanding :) Mickorod Renard: bye JS Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye JS Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for coming JS :) Calvino Rabeni: So long, JS Eliza Madrigal: bye JS JS Saltwater: ty all Aphrodite Macbain: outsourcing....hmm Gaya Ethaniel: Still thinking about you mentioning equanimity here Mick ... Mickorod Renard: :) Gaya Ethaniel: Want to say a bit more? Eliza Madrigal: agree Cal... very easy to pedestalize Mickorod Renard: only that is a struggle for me to ,,whats the word,,,reconcile that Aphrodite Macbain: pygmalion Zen (zen.arado): setting people up to be more pure than us Eliza Madrigal: :) Aphrodite Macbain: we need our heros Calvino Rabeni: It also goes to show how much ethical and moral intelligence is collective and distributed, rather than encapsulated in each individual Mickorod Renard: reconcile equanimity with caring and so forth Aphrodite Macbain: yes- morality is societal and culural; not an absolute Eliza Madrigal: a clear conscience would seem to be a calm waters one... but many have never tasted that perhaps Mickorod Renard: the only way I can do it is to believe I am above the issues of the world Calvino Rabeni: Religion tries to speak to aspirations as well as morality .. the Law tries to set a lower boundary on what's acceptable Aphrodite Macbain: Ghaddafi has a clear conscience... Liza Deischer: maybe consious kicks in when the water isn't that calm..... Mickorod Renard: he is just tending his cattle Aphrodite Macbain: zap! Mickorod Renard: in his mind Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Moo Aphrodite Macbain: the catle feel good if they obey Calvino Rabeni: I think we refer to "conscience" as a kind of corrective signal when things are wrong -- thinking of the Lao Tzu quote in the homework report Eliza Madrigal: mm, nods, sure Aphrodite Macbain: /me makes a note to read again Calvino Rabeni: but when things are smooth, it's just using a feeling sense for what's right .. these might be the same sensibilities Zen (zen.arado): so where does it come from? Zen (zen.arado): or did you cover that? Aphrodite Macbain: brainwashing Mickorod Renard: but if we were to profit greatly by turning a blind eye would our conscience be so strong? Gaya Ethaniel: oh let me make a notecard sorry Zen ... Aphrodite Macbain: I think not, it would still prick us Aphrodite Macbain: Mick Mickorod Renard: :) Calvino Rabeni: But people like to pick their leaders / brainwashers and submit to them, seem to need it boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, conscience is a measure of what's right Aphrodite Macbain: It becomes a conditioned response like anything else Aphrodite Macbain: I must go and call my mother. I haven Mickorod Renard: you can get embedded in concience, it can be holding back Eliza Madrigal: :) Aph Aphrodite Macbain: nt spoken to her for a few days.. Mickorod Renard: bye Aph boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph :) Liza Deischer: conscience isn't leaving by making bad decisions, it seems to be the moment that it kicks in, like an extra-internal feeling that comes from or is connected to........? Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Take care Aph, bye Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! all, thank you Calvino Rabeni: And when things are "just right" conscience doesn't speak, only when things seem to be getting off track .. that's probably the basis of the idea of "sin" Eliza Madrigal: 'missing the mark' Liza Deischer: right Cal Calvino Rabeni: so conscience steps in when there is a conflict and decisions might need to be made Zen (zen.arado): whre does the mark come from? Calvino Rabeni: Tao Calvino Rabeni: :) facile answer, sure Mickorod Renard: the problem is,,,the world today is stretching the parametres of what traditionally has been right Liza Deischer: good question Zen Zen (zen.arado): the standard , the norm Zen (zen.arado): ? Calvino Rabeni: No zen boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, example please Mickorod Renard: erm Calvino Rabeni: the norm seems pretty "sinful" if you'll forgive me that term Liza Deischer: nods at Mick Mickorod Renard: cant think of a good example Eliza Madrigal: I have a toothache, it is a sign that something was wrong with my tooth so I went through lots more pain to fix it... so the dull ache would go away... :) I also may be loopy and that have nothing to do with this... Calvino Rabeni: Isn't there a common myth that all of humanity is "fallen" .. that is not really at peace with conscience? Zen (zen.arado): you have to transgress something to feel guilty Zen (zen.arado): original sin Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Agreed Zen :) Eliza Madrigal: you have to transgress an 'other' perhaps Zen (zen.arado): we are all rotten sinners but savable by grace is the Christian view Eliza Madrigal: I don't think that's the only christian view... but the loudest Zen (zen.arado): we can only feel guit in relation to others? boxy (alfred.kelberry): cal, you always bring a theologic view :) Liza Deischer: there is a series about slavery on CNN International; I guess 90 % of us will feel our conscious kicks in, but when we shop, we still want the best product for the best price....... so how extended is our conscience Calvino Rabeni: This can't be reduced to simple rules .. I'd guess there are moral feelings arising out of pure delusion too, or out of hormonal states or brain damage, etc. Zen (zen.arado): yeh E;liza Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Amen Zen (zen.arado): :) Mickorod Renard: well I am trying to do the right thing, but feel I am being left behind cos of my concience Zen (zen.arado): ye must be born again Zen (zen.arado): they say Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hallelujah Zen (zen.arado): I mustn't mock Calvino Rabeni: So I bring in theology as much as neurophilosophy, I'd say, so that they can mutually correct each other boxy (alfred.kelberry): praise the lord! Aggers (agatha.macbeth): No, naughty boy Eliza Madrigal: good point Liza... we make compromises all the time based on what we think our ability to choose otherwise is boxy (alfred.kelberry): :P Mickorod Renard: yea, I tried to stop child labour imports once Calvino Rabeni: Good point Eliza Zen (zen.arado): conscience isn't intellectual though - more of a feeling? Eliza Madrigal: 'most men lead lives of quiet desperation' Calvino Rabeni: No one I think, likes to torture themselves by taking on a personal or societal moral issue that feels intractable .. that could be a shifting line though, Zen (zen.arado): we sure do Eliza :( boxy (alfred.kelberry): mick, can you tell more on that? Zen (zen.arado): it's so tough for us Zen (zen.arado): the right thng is your conscience Mick? Mickorod Renard: well, maybe not Liza Deischer: /me mumbles, maybe our primal brain isn't made for global conscience Mickorod Renard: but we think it is Calvino Rabeni: On a more personal level ... how many of us I wonder, choose friends or a social network to help be more discerning, to use correct judgments, maybe be held "accountable" ... instead of seeking individual liberty from external judgments that seem oppressive to individual freedom .. ? There's a lot to be said for both practices. Calvino Rabeni: And I agree with Liza there Zen (zen.arado): yeh Eliza Zen (zen.arado): we are still ittle close tribes really Mickorod Renard: o maybe its ou idealistic opinion Zen (zen.arado): Liza I mean Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Cal re environment... Zen (zen.arado): we choose friends because they like what we do Zen (zen.arado): I think Gaya Ethaniel: A few minutes left ... shall we continue next week with forgiveness? Zen (zen.arado): not one's who disapprove Liza Deischer: yes Zen, and that's an interesting point Cal...... a kind of collective more focussed on the survival of the group conscience versus a more personal conscience, they can contradict each other..... Zen (zen.arado): suits me Calvino Rabeni: I know I choose friends who can disagree with me where it's appropriate and help me learn .. within a range I can accept emotionally Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me nods Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ both Eliza Madrigal: but I sort of let life choose my friends sometimes too Eliza Madrigal: even when it makes no sense to me :) Liza Deischer: forgiveness, yes sounds great after putting my conscience under a loop :) Calvino Rabeni: I think forgiveness is a good topic, if it is balanced with conscience or accountability .. Zen (zen.arado): /me thinks he should choose friends that way but..... Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Loopy Liz :) Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen... don't you have friends you've had forever that annoy you but you respect? Gaya Ethaniel: Would be nice to hear more about that point Cal next week :) Zen (zen.arado): yeh I guess,,,but made a mistake :) Eliza Madrigal: :)) Eliza Madrigal: Okay... bye and thanks everyone Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :) Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Bye for now Mickorod Renard: thanks All Zen (zen.arado): thanks everyone Eliza Madrigal: Oh! btw Cal... the soul comments you made last week re earth and sky... nice! Liza Deischer: bye everyone that is going Eliza Madrigal: thanks for that Mickorod Renard: I need to slip away,,thankyou Eliza Madrigal: /me waves Zen (zen.arado): blanket bye Liza Deischer: (I always need some time to get up) Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Yea, let's call it a night Aggers (agatha.macbeth): It's a night Eliza Madrigal: :) Hugs Ags Eliza Madrigal: Night it is