OK, that is my queue to take a break from this forum for a bit before my head implodes.

Chum, you new man crush for Aldrich has spiraled out of control.

It's because of lack of tequila. I tell you, that can't be good for any brain...

I think you are underestimating Aldrich bada. He's going to go top 10 for sure, and nearly every mock draft I've seen has him going from 5 to 7. There's a reason for that. It's not because this draft is weak and it's not because there is a lack of big men in the draft.

I've looked at his stats and the stats of the every PF and C he went up against this last season. I didn't look at his previous year. In some of the games you mentioned some of the PFs and Cs put up decent numbers, but they ended up with a loss. There is no center in the NBA or NCAA that can shut down every big every night. It just doesn't happen.

Read what the scouts say about Aldrich, look at what his team did defensively, look what people say about his rebounding and shot blocking, look at his wingspan (you did), look at whatever clips you can. He's a very very good defensive center.

If you don't like him, np. My opinion is that he will be an excellent NBA defender, rebounder and shot-blocker. It's not based on a whim or a fantasy or anything like that. It's based on what info I could find over the last week or so. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm certainly not alone in thinking this guy is going to be a stud NBA player.

I don't think he's the only guy worthy to draft by any means. There are several excellent looking prospects to be had beyond the "five" imo. Aldrich just looks like the best fit for the Warriors to me.

Aldrich sounds capable and definately fills a need as a rebounder and shotblocker, but I recall you being high, rather high on Thabeet and that guy looks bust for sure. Could this Aldrich guy be similar. I like rebounding and defense, absolutely, and the team needs that, but it also has to be a player that will fit in and be used, not so much under Nelson, who is only here for one more year if he stays at all, but with whatever system then takes over and remember that it will have to be a coach and system that uses the players here. What ever big is attained, if any at all, either through draft or trade, has to be one that fits in, so not one that doesn't play both ends or makes it down the offensive end most times. Can't be a big lug in other words.

Monroe's description and skills seems alright and he maybe could be a better fit if the team keeps the pick

Chum wrote:I'm a Kevin Love fan. It would be great if we traded for him, but he hasn't shown himself to be anything but an ordinary low post defender. He's an excellent rebounder, but not a very good shot blocker.

We can debate over whether or not Cole Aldrich is going to be a good NBA defender or not. He definetly has shown more as a defender in college than Love did. He's also shown himself to be a much, much better shot blocker, and he played in a tougher conference than Love. I'm a Pac-10 guy and I can tell you the Pac-10 has been weak in basketball for several years now.

btw Love averaged 14 points this year. According to bada we shouldn't waste a high draft pick on a one dimensional player (referring to Aldrich) but I don't think you can get a whole lot more one dimensional than Love. He's a rebounder. Done. His 3 point shooting is decent but he doesn't take a whole lot of shots.

I share your opinion a fair bit about Love. He has potential and produces well, but he is not great at anything but rebounding and if you look at it, his three point shooting ability is what makes him pretty special, to go with his other attributes. The guy doesn't block alot of shots and doesn't score much either and the TWolves don't have many scorers either so it's not like he was fifth option or something. Maybe being on the Warriors Love could score more, but look at the team we have and the scorers here, Love would likely score as much or more probable less than he has in Minnesota. It is getting a Center that fits well and fills needs and Love certainly does that with his rebounding and three point shooting as a Center, but I think MGasol is better, BLopez (unattainable most likely) might be by a little bit as well and even AJefferson might or might not be a better fit himself, as he is a great scorer and monster rebounder himself, at least before this season and ofcourse, the extent as to how that injury and surgery he had permanently effected him is the thing.

I like AJefferson very much. He dropped from his very high level of before last season and that is huge. He has his flaws, especially as a passer and now his defense is looking average at best sometimes, but his abilities are huge. The thing with him is that maybe he would not go well with the players we have here and the somewhat free flowing style, thus he'd possibly take away from the team instead of add to it. Guys like Love and MGasol look much more like complementary players and that factor is the most important of all, being able to fit in and add to what a team already has

Chum wrote:I think you are underestimating Aldrich bada. He's going to go top 10 for sure, and nearly every mock draft I've seen has him going from 5 to 7. There's a reason for that. It's not because this draft is weak and it's not because there is a lack of big men in the draft.

I will concede that Chum. That is a very big possibility. My evaluation of him is my own, and certainly I could be missing the mark on him.... has happened many times before

Chum wrote:I've looked at his stats and the stats of the every PF and C he went up against this last season. I didn't look at his previous year. In some of the games you mentioned some of the PFs and Cs put up decent numbers, but they ended up with a loss. There is no center in the NBA or NCAA that can shut down every big every night. It just doesn't happen.

The Big 12 has had a lack of quality big men for the past couple of seasons. He feasted on nobody's and stuggled a bit against anyone with decent size and ability. I dont think he was the best defensive player in all of the NCAA. Probably not even top 10. Although that is really tough to judge with all the teams and all the zone's teams play.

Read what the scouts say about Aldrich, look at what his team did defensively, look what people say about his rebounding and shot blocking, look at his wingspan (you did), look at whatever clips you can. He's a very very good defensive center.

Yeah, I wont deny that many people think he is a very good rebounder and defensive player. I agree at the college level he was... I worry about the next level. And again, I am forming my opinion of him watching him play with my own eyes, so it does not suprise me to have a different opinion than some scouts... we are different people.

If you don't like him, np. My opinion is that he will be an excellent NBA defender, rebounder and shot-blocker. It's not based on a whim or a fantasy or anything like that. It's based on what info I could find over the last week or so. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm certainly not alone in thinking this guy is going to be a stud NBA player.

I dont think he will be useless in the league or a complete bust, but there really can be no argument that he is VERY limited offensively and he will not make a mark in that area. SO really he has to make his mark on defense and rebounding which he has a chance to do. I just think #6 is WAY to early to take a player like that. I guess I kind of see Alrdrich as being a smaller version of Greg Ostertag or Joel Pryzbilla.

Why not take someone with a much bigger chance of becoming a great player and then come back with a guy like Jarvis Varnardo in the 2nd? He is a bit undersized but talk about defense! Aldrich cant hold a jock to Jarnardo in my eyes. But there is a risk it wont translate... but at least you are only risking a 2nd round pick.

btw I also looked into Beast's Greg Monroe and Hassan Whiteside. I like both of those players. Monroe's passing does look excellent and Whiteside has the potential to be a top notch defensive bigman. I think Whiteside is a stretch to take at 6th. I'd be happy with Monroe at 6th. I just think Aldrich is more polished and more committed to D than either of these guys. All three could help the Warriors though.

Jarvis Varnardo looks like a project player. Here's a blurb from one of the draft sites...

Lacks body strength for the NBA (he improved since last year, but still has long way to go)... His body frame (shoulders) is a bit narrow for his size ... He gets pushed around too much on the low post, although he shows a willingness to battle

Taking him in the second round would be ok I guess. Aldrich just looks a lot bigger and beefier and again more polished.

I can see your point in taking a "defensive" player in the second round and going for a bigger boom or bust player in the first.

I can see taking both Aldrich and Varnardo. The more defense the better

I just don't think we need another big time scorer. Would I take Evan Turner if he were available? Sure. But I don't think he would be a great fit initially with Curry. I can see them developing into something great though.

I still see Aldrich as the best defender in the draft and I still think defense should be our #1 priority.

I'd be good with taking a boom or bust in the first and a defensive guy in the second though. Either is good with me. I just hope the Warrior's FO doesn't just look at who would be the two best scorers available and go for them. I think it would be a waste of a good draft.

There is no center in the NBA or NCAA that can shut down every big every night. It just doesn't happen"

Truer words never said. I can't speak with any authority about Aldrich. It would be nice to see someone in our starting lineup that's noted for his defensive play.

Chum said:

but I don't think you can get a whole lot more one dimensional than Love. He's a rebounder. Done.

Thing about Love is that though he is a very good rebounder and pretty good passer, he really isn't that great at anything else, especially shotblocking

I realize you corrected those statements. I would ask once again you and Migya, what's with the shot blocking stat? We already have 3 shotblockers, 4 if you include AB. What's wrong with actually getting the ball and retaining a possession for your team????
Ok, Love is an average low post defender. I would say he's better than a "very good rebounder" and is bound to get better. And after all isn't rebounding and defense what we're weak at?

But I thought it might be fun to compare the big men we banter about making trades for, using a little more involved stats.. Not with the purpose of saying one is clearly better than the rest. But in the means of comparing their games.
Let's talk about rebounding first , then we'll expand the profile. Among the 4 players we've talked about trading, 3 are currently centers and one (Love) is a PF. I think Love could be used as a Center as he's about the same build with a little more weight than AB.. As far as rebounds, it will sound like I'm making a case for Love, but other stats later will broaden the picture. All cases where a player ranks among the top 10 in the NBA in one category, for their position are noted.

Total Rebound Rate-TRR
Love----------21.4
Horford-------17.0
Jefferson-----15.9
M. Gasol------15.2
Love is rated 2nd among PF's in the NBA in total rebound rate.

In talking about the future direction of the Warriors. There are several directions we could go. For example Migya propsed a trade that would net us M. Gasol and Z. Randolph. That trade would greatly affect the direction of our team. I would like to keep certain aspects of Warrior basketball in tact. Mostly because we've already built a team in a certain direction, and I feel with the proper bigs we could continue an exciting brand of basketball. IMO, Having a center who can assist is a good part of this scheme. Horford, M. Gasol and Love all have good assist rates for big men. This stat supports a contention I have that Jefferson is a "black hole" that is, he almost never passes out, never makes any of his teammates better.

Usage Rate-----USG
Jefferson--------24.4
Love-------------22.3
Horford---------17.60
M. Gasol--------16.87
Jefferson ranks 4th in the league in usage rate. Love is not way far behind but Love does assist his teammates. Jefferson wants the ball so he can shoot it, which would be ok but.....

True Shooting %-----TS%
M. Gasol----------- 61.7
Horford-------------59.3
Love----------------54.9
Jefferson-----------52.5
Jefferson makes the fewest points per shot taking in consideration free throws and 3 point shots than any of the others. So he takes the ball more and yields fewer points. He's right down there with Monta as one of the NBA's biggest ball hogs.
M. Gasol ranks 6th among Centers in the NBA in TS%, and Horford ranks 10th. Both very efficient shooters because they don't try to make shots they can't make. ( i.e Usage rate only 16.87 and 17.60 respectively. )
I'd love to get Gasol and /or Horford, I just think a trade for LOve is much more likely.

There is no center in the NBA or NCAA that can shut down every big every night. It just doesn't happen"

Truer words never said. I can't speak with any authority about Aldrich. It would be nice to see someone in our starting lineup that's noted for his defensive play.

Chum said:

but I don't think you can get a whole lot more one dimensional than Love. He's a rebounder. Done.

Thing about Love is that though he is a very good rebounder and pretty good passer, he really isn't that great at anything else, especially shotblocking

I realize you corrected those statements. I would ask once again you and Migya, what's with the shot blocking stat? We already have 3 shotblockers, 4 if you include AB. What's wrong with actually getting the ball and retaining a possession for your team????Ok, Love is an average low post defender. I would say he's better than a "very good rebounder" and is bound to get better. And after all isn't rebounding and defense what we're weak at?

But I thought it might be fun to compare the big men we banter about making trades for, using a little more involved stats.. Not with the purpose of saying one is clearly better than the rest. But in the means of comparing their games.Let's talk about rebounding first , then we'll expand the profile. Among the 4 players we've talked about trading, 3 are currently centers and one (Love) is a PF. I think Love could be used as a Center as he's about the same build with a little more weight than AB.. As far as rebounds, it will sound like I'm making a case for Love, but other stats later will broaden the picture. All cases where a player ranks among the top 10 in the NBA in one category, for their position are noted.

Total Rebound Rate-TRRLove----------21.4Horford-------17.0Jefferson-----15.9M. Gasol------15.2Love is rated 2nd among PF's in the NBA in total rebound rate.

Offensive rebound rate-ORR (one of our weakest team stats )Love-----------14.5M. Gasol--------9.8Horford---------9.6Jefferson-------8.0Love is ranked first among PF in the NBA in Offensive rebound rate.

Defensive Rebound rate----DRRLove----------- 28.6Jefferson-------24.1Horford---------23.3M. Gasol--------20.5Love is ranked third among PF's in the NBA in Defensive Rebound Rate

Assist Rate-------ARHorford---------- 14.80M. Gasol----------14.78Love--------------13.33Jefferson----------9.11Horford and M. Gasol rank 9th and 10th in the NBA among Centers in AR.

In talking about the future direction of the Warriors. There are several directions we could go. For example Migya propsed a trade that would net us M. Gasol and Z. Randolph. That trade would greatly affect the direction of our team. I would like to keep certain aspects of Warrior basketball in tact. Mostly because we've already built a team in a certain direction, and I feel with the proper bigs we could continue an exciting brand of basketball. IMO, Having a center who can assist is a good part of this scheme. Horford, M. Gasol and Love all have good assist rates for big men. This stat supports a contention I have that Jefferson is a "black hole" that is, he almost never passes out, never makes any of his teammates better.

Usage Rate-----USGJefferson--------24.4Love-------------22.3Horford---------17.60M. Gasol--------16.87Jefferson ranks 4th in the league in usage rate. Love is not way far behind but Love does assist his teammates. Jefferson wants the ball so he can shoot it, which would be ok but.....

True Shooting %-----TS%M. Gasol----------- 61.7Horford-------------59.3Love----------------54.9Jefferson-----------52.5Jefferson makes the fewest points per shot taking in consideration free throws and 3 point shots than any of the others. So he takes the ball more and yields fewer points. He's right down there with Monta as one of the NBA's biggest ball hogs. M. Gasol ranks 6th among Centers in the NBA in TS%, and Horford ranks 10th. Both very efficient shooters because they don't try to make shots they can't make. ( i.e Usage rate only 16.87 and 17.60 respectively. )I'd love to get Gasol and /or Horford, I just think a trade for LOve is much more likely.

Those are the facts.

This strengthens my liking of Horford, and continues my love for Love. Jefferson is blacklisted. M. Gasol is great. Love is GREAT, but I think Monta + AB for Horford +______ would work

There is no center in the NBA or NCAA that can shut down every big every night. It just doesn't happen"

Truer words never said. I can't speak with any authority about Aldrich. It would be nice to see someone in our starting lineup that's noted for his defensive play.

but I don't think you can get a whole lot more one dimensional than Love. He's a rebounder. Done.

Thing about Love is that though he is a very good rebounder and pretty good passer, he really isn't that great at anything else, especially shotblocking

I realize you corrected those statements. I would ask once again you and Migya, what's with the shot blocking stat? We already have 3 shotblockers, 4 if you include AB. What's wrong with actually getting the ball and retaining a possession for your team????Ok, Love is an average low post defender. I would say he's better than a "very good rebounder" and is bound to get better. And after all isn't rebounding and defense what we're weak at?

But I thought it might be fun to compare the big men we banter about making trades for, using a little more involved stats.. Not with the purpose of saying one is clearly better than the rest. But in the means of comparing their games.Let's talk about rebounding first , then we'll expand the profile. Among the 4 players we've talked about trading, 3 are currently centers and one (Love) is a PF. I think Love could be used as a Center as he's about the same build with a little more weight than AB.. As far as rebounds, it will sound like I'm making a case for Love, but other stats later will broaden the picture. All cases where a player ranks among the top 10 in the NBA in one category, for their position are noted.

Total Rebound Rate-TRRLove----------21.4Horford-------17.0Jefferson-----15.9M. Gasol------15.2Love is rated 2nd among PF's in the NBA in total rebound rate.

Offensive rebound rate-ORR (one of our weakest team stats )Love-----------14.5M. Gasol--------9.8Horford---------9.6Jefferson-------8.0Love is ranked first among PF in the NBA in Offensive rebound rate.

Defensive Rebound rate----DRRLove----------- 28.6Jefferson-------24.1Horford---------23.3M. Gasol--------20.5Love is ranked third among PF's in the NBA in Defensive Rebound Rate

Assist Rate-------ARHorford---------- 14.80M. Gasol----------14.78Love--------------13.33Jefferson----------9.11Horford and M. Gasol rank 9th and 10th in the NBA among Centers in AR.

In talking about the future direction of the Warriors. There are several directions we could go. For example Migya propsed a trade that would net us M. Gasol and Z. Randolph. That trade would greatly affect the direction of our team. I would like to keep certain aspects of Warrior basketball in tact. Mostly because we've already built a team in a certain direction, and I feel with the proper bigs we could continue an exciting brand of basketball. IMO, Having a center who can assist is a good part of this scheme. Horford, M. Gasol and Love all have good assist rates for big men. This stat supports a contention I have that Jefferson is a "black hole" that is, he almost never passes out, never makes any of his teammates better.

Usage Rate-----USGJefferson--------24.4Love-------------22.3Horford---------17.60M. Gasol--------16.87Jefferson ranks 4th in the league in usage rate. Love is not way far behind but Love does assist his teammates. Jefferson wants the ball so he can shoot it, which would be ok but.....

True Shooting %-----TS%M. Gasol----------- 61.7Horford-------------59.3Love----------------54.9Jefferson-----------52.5Jefferson makes the fewest points per shot taking in consideration free throws and 3 point shots than any of the others. So he takes the ball more and yields fewer points. He's right down there with Monta as one of the NBA's biggest ball hogs. M. Gasol ranks 6th among Centers in the NBA in TS%, and Horford ranks 10th. Both very efficient shooters because they don't try to make shots they can't make. ( i.e Usage rate only 16.87 and 17.60 respectively. )I'd love to get Gasol and /or Horford, I just think a trade for LOve is much more likely.

Nice post and info War Years. Very inciteful...

I've maintained that Love is an excellent player and that I'd really like to trade for him. I'll also agree that rebounds are more important than blocks, but both are important to defense and I'd like my post players to be good at both.

I'd be EXTREMELY happy if we traded for Love AND drafted Aldrich...

PG - Curry
SG - Williams
SF - AR
PF - Love
C - Aldrich

Now you've got serious rebounders in the post. Love could be used as the more offensive post man while Aldrich could be relied upon to be the dedicated defensive post man.

Another thing I like about this lineup is AR guarding on the perimeter and then giving him iso plays on offense. Love can move out to the perimeter to make room for AR and on a pass out Love can be called on to knock down the 3.

You likey the fast break? We'll get a shitton more fast breaks with Love and Aldrich rebounding. btw Aldrich is also know to be an "excellent" passing big man.

LilBallerx8 wrote:I see a hole in Williams though. We'd need to develop him a lot, or trade later. But that trade solves our current problem.

Well I do like Williams, but he hasn't played a whole lot. There is still Azu and Morrow to put into the SG spot if Williams can't hack it. If we keep Mags I think he would be hell to deal with at the SG spot. We at least have options and talent there.

Another note on War Years' numbers and Jefferson. Jefferson is an "excellent" low post scorer. His shooting % is probably a little lower than the others because he is often going solo against one or more defenders. He creates for himself down low and I believe he is the best scorer in the group of players War Years listed. He's also the last of that group I'd like for us to trade for.

I've always felt that you needed to have a top notch low post scorer to do well in the playoffs. The Celtics have changed my mind on that. Even with KG most of the Celtics' low post scoring comes from designed plays, hustle plays and rebound put backs. You just don't need a top notch low post defender to thrive.

Horford, Love, Gasol and yes I believe Aldrich can all score just fine off of designed plays and put backs. Either Horford or Gasol is probably the best at scoring low on isolation plays but I'd like to see AR do that against opposing small forwards.

I think we win if we land any of these players in a trade. I'd love to get two of them but I don't see that as a likely outcome. Thus we should draft a big and trade for another.

There is no center in the NBA or NCAA that can shut down every big every night. It just doesn't happen"

Truer words never said. I can't speak with any authority about Aldrich. It would be nice to see someone in our starting lineup that's noted for his defensive play.

Chum said:

but I don't think you can get a whole lot more one dimensional than Love. He's a rebounder. Done.

Thing about Love is that though he is a very good rebounder and pretty good passer, he really isn't that great at anything else, especially shotblocking

I realize you corrected those statements. I would ask once again you and Migya, what's with the shot blocking stat? We already have 3 shotblockers, 4 if you include AB. What's wrong with actually getting the ball and retaining a possession for your team????Ok, Love is an average low post defender. I would say he's better than a "very good rebounder" and is bound to get better. And after all isn't rebounding and defense what we're weak at?

But I thought it might be fun to compare the big men we banter about making trades for, using a little more involved stats.. Not with the purpose of saying one is clearly better than the rest. But in the means of comparing their games.Let's talk about rebounding first , then we'll expand the profile. Among the 4 players we've talked about trading, 3 are currently centers and one (Love) is a PF. I think Love could be used as a Center as he's about the same build with a little more weight than AB.. As far as rebounds, it will sound like I'm making a case for Love, but other stats later will broaden the picture. All cases where a player ranks among the top 10 in the NBA in one category, for their position are noted.

Total Rebound Rate-TRRLove----------21.4Horford-------17.0Jefferson-----15.9M. Gasol------15.2Love is rated 2nd among PF's in the NBA in total rebound rate.

Offensive rebound rate-ORR (one of our weakest team stats )Love-----------14.5M. Gasol--------9.8Horford---------9.6Jefferson-------8.0Love is ranked first among PF in the NBA in Offensive rebound rate.

Defensive Rebound rate----DRRLove----------- 28.6Jefferson-------24.1Horford---------23.3M. Gasol--------20.5Love is ranked third among PF's in the NBA in Defensive Rebound Rate

Assist Rate-------ARHorford---------- 14.80M. Gasol----------14.78Love--------------13.33Jefferson----------9.11Horford and M. Gasol rank 9th and 10th in the NBA among Centers in AR.

In talking about the future direction of the Warriors. There are several directions we could go. For example Migya propsed a trade that would net us M. Gasol and Z. Randolph. That trade would greatly affect the direction of our team. I would like to keep certain aspects of Warrior basketball in tact. Mostly because we've already built a team in a certain direction, and I feel with the proper bigs we could continue an exciting brand of basketball. IMO, Having a center who can assist is a good part of this scheme. Horford, M. Gasol and Love all have good assist rates for big men. This stat supports a contention I have that Jefferson is a "black hole" that is, he almost never passes out, never makes any of his teammates better.

Usage Rate-----USGJefferson--------24.4Love-------------22.3Horford---------17.60M. Gasol--------16.87Jefferson ranks 4th in the league in usage rate. Love is not way far behind but Love does assist his teammates. Jefferson wants the ball so he can shoot it, which would be ok but.....

True Shooting %-----TS%M. Gasol----------- 61.7Horford-------------59.3Love----------------54.9Jefferson-----------52.5Jefferson makes the fewest points per shot taking in consideration free throws and 3 point shots than any of the others. So he takes the ball more and yields fewer points. He's right down there with Monta as one of the NBA's biggest ball hogs. M. Gasol ranks 6th among Centers in the NBA in TS%, and Horford ranks 10th. Both very efficient shooters because they don't try to make shots they can't make. ( i.e Usage rate only 16.87 and 17.60 respectively. )I'd love to get Gasol and /or Horford, I just think a trade for LOve is much more likely.

awesome post and research War! LOVE IT!!!

Dont let migya see this though... it will ruin his image of horford being a "no skill" player!