Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Mexicans weigh in on illegal immigration: A Zogby study Of 1,004 Mexican nationals conducted last month reported the following:

Fifty-six percent of people in Mexico thought giving legal status to illegal immigrants in the United States would make it more likely that people they know would go to the United States illegally. Just 17 percent thought it would make Mexicans less likely to go. The rest were unsure or thought it would make no difference.

Of Mexicans with a member of their immediate household in the United States,65 percent said a legalization program would make people they know more likely to go to America illegally.

Two-thirds of Mexicans know someone living in the United States; one-third said an immediate member of their household was living in the United States.

Interest in going to the United States remains strong even in the current recession, with 36 percent of Mexicans (39 million people) saying they would move to the United States if they could. At present, 12 to 13 million Mexico-born people live in the United States.

A new Pew Research Center poll also found that about one-third of Mexicans would go to the United States if they could.

An overwhelming majority (69 percent) of people in Mexico thought that the primary loyalty of Mexican-Americans should be to Mexico. Just 20 percent said it should be to the United States. The rest were unsure.

Also, 69 percent of people in Mexico felt that the Mexican government should represent the interests of Mexican-Americans (Mexico- and U.S.-born) in the United States.

A plurality, 39 percent, of Mexicans thought that in the last year fewer people they know had gone to the United States as illegal immigrants compared to previous years. Only 27 percent thought more had gone. The rest thought it had stayed the same or were unsure.

A plurality, 40 percent, also thought that in the last year more of the illegal immigrants they know had returned to Mexico compared to previous years. Only 25 percent thought the number returning had fallen. The rest thought it had stayed the same or were unsure.

Both the bad economy and increased immigration enforcement were cited as reasons fewer people were going to America as illegal immigrants and more were coming back to Mexico.

Okay, let's summarize. Mexicans believe amnesty will encourage more illegal immigration, and those who are the best informed (i.e., people who have family here) are more likely to feel that way. So amnesty is not going to fix a problem, it's going to grow the problen, which is probably what advocates want anyway. We get more Democrats. More people in need of government social services. It's a win-win.

Family and social networks between the two countries are thick. You'd think it was the same country. Some people would like it to be.

Most Mexicans also have no respect for American sovereignty, integrity or interests. America is simply the world's boarding house. Its ATM. There are no Americans, just Mexicans and other nationalities fattening their savings accounts. How would Mexicans like it if we snuck millions of immigrants into their country and expected them to be loyal to us and for our government to not consider them Mexicans, and to defend their interests against the interests of Mexico?

America is the woman you think you can "enter," cheat on, slap around, call a whore, and she'll beg for more. Masochistic. Low self-esteem. Maybe it's no accident that baby girls are sometimes named "America"--never boys.

Almost 40 million Mexicans wish they were here--even when things are so bad. Fortunately, the recession seems to have slowed illegal movement. Thank God for small favors.

7 comments:

You raise some good points, but to be fair, I think that the US government should represent Americans living in Mexico, too, and I think the primary loyalty of an American south of the border should be to the United States. That Mexicans feel the same way is as it should be.

Most Mexicans I know who've been here for 20+ years think of Mexico as more or less a foreign country and all the people of Mexican I know who were born here feel this way. I speak better Spanish than probably 50% of the second generation Mexicans/Hondurans/Puerto Ricans I have met.

There are three issues that I see. One, at least half of the Mexican immigrants I've met don't bring any skills to our country other than a willingness to work. Their kids often lack that.

Two, the country has enough people. We don't need to keep adding tens of millions of people.

Three, so a third of all Mexicans want to come here to live. That's 35 million people. We could probably just barely absorb them. But what if 1/3 of Guatemalans, Peruvians, Indians, Pakistanis, etc., said the same thing. Are we going to feel sorry for all of them? High IQ, low IQ, educated, campesinos, it doesn't matter. Sooner or later enough is enough. I vote for sooner, and it has nothing to do with hatred of Mexico. I love the place and go as often as I can.

KingM: According to the survey, 60%of Mexicans feel that Mexican-AMERICANS--both those born here and those naturalized--should be primarily loyal to Mexico over the United States. That's not as it should be.

Your other points are all solid. Not only do I like Mexico, I like Mexicans, but my feelings are irrelevant.

Since you are rational, I will ask what you think the future of Mexican immigration is given that their total fertility rate is now 2.0. Philip Longman of the New America foundation seems to think it could fall a lot. It seems plausible. With a tfr of only 2.0 and people quite willing to leave, it makes me wonder if it could become a self limiting situation. How long it might take is not clear. What do you think?

Silly Girl - That TFR of 2.0 is for Mexican women in Mexico. The TFR for Mexican women in the USA is closer to 4. The conjecture is that life in the USA represents an improvement in their standard of living, so a sort "baby boom" ensues.

A little remarked on issue is what Steve Sailer has called "generational momentum." The typical Mexican woman and her offspring (again, in the USA) also have their children younger, and so while a non-Hispanic white woman may have 2 children in her early 30s, and her children do likewise, in that same +/- 60 year time frame, you are looking at 3 generations of that same Hispanic woman and her offspring, versus 2 for the non-Hispanic woman.

This is why I believe the Census Bureau's predicitions of a white minority by 2042 are off the mark. The Hispanic percentage of the population has doubled consistently every 20 years since 1940 (from 1.5% to 3%, for 3% to 6%, and so on), so it should not surprise anyone if Hispanics - 12% as of the 2000 census - represents 1/4 of the population by the next decade, and perhaps an ouright majority by 2040. (BTW, even with a static black population and a more slowly growing Asian populace, that would put the white, non-Hispanic population at roughly 30% of the total.)

I agree with all of your points. The main reason that hispanics grow as a % seems to be because their higher/sooner births compared to whites. But it includes constant immigration. There is no way for whites to hold their own below 2.0. My question is whether eventually immigration from Mexico is self limiting. Maybe I see you saying it is the way Mexico is counting. Since the swine flu started in Mexico, I have become suspicious of their data.

Anyway, a portion of hispanics are actually white, while others are far more Native American. I am guessing the white hispanics in the US and elsewhere also have lower birthrates. I know many affluent Mexicans who are mostly white and they don't really associate much with other hispanics rather, they hang out with whites because most of the people in their social group/class are white or Asian. That is most of the people at their work, church, school, neighborhood, kids' sports teams are mostly white.

Do you see something that makes you think that hispanics will continue to have higher birthrates even after more generations in the US? Blacks don't, so maybe the hispanic rate will fall as well.

SG - I tend to take George Kennan's view about immigration in general, and Mexican immigration in particular: if we don't enforce our borders, then high levels of immigration will continue until the standard of living on both sides is essentially equivalent. In other words, once the US standard of living falls to Mexican levels.

You raise good points about ethnic/race identification. Back in the 50s and 60s, most Mexican immigrants to the USA were from the northern states of Mexico, and generally had less indigenous ancestry. Once here, they self-identified as white, and in fact groups like Lulac encouraged that, along with English language acquisition and assimmilation.

Later waves of immigrants starting in the 80s came from the more southerly states (e.g. Chiapas) and had a larger indigenous component. By this time, ethnic awareness and various racial pressure groups had popped up, and it became advantageous to claim that you were a member of a discriminated-against minority.

Since our political, business, labor, education, religious, and media elites have all decided for us that our borders will continue to be a joke, it really doesn't matter what 3rd or 4th generation Hispanics decide to do insofar as the size of their families go. Large scale immigration from Mexico will continue until we reach the tipping point mentioned above, and in the meantime those people will all be contributing 3 or 4 offspring a piece.

Most immigrants are 'false patriots', nothing but wannabe macho-men. The 'machismo' is to blame.

When i went to a Mexican restaurant, i recall all the Mexican men there cheering for the Mexican soccer team, and not the American soccer team.Why would they do such a thing?Well, because they feel the need to rebel against those who are trying to impose new beliefs upon them(America),and since they cannot "fit in", they must cheer and show "pride" for whatever remains- even if deep inside they dislike it(Mexico) .

This whole ghetto "cholo" culture (which i despise) demands that you believe in the Catholic faith, drive low-riders, wear tank-tops and baggy brown Dickies, etc. If not, then you are "not mexican enough", or so the 'cholo's claim.It's all part of the ghetto culture.Like blacks who have to be "gangster", because if they are not, then they must have been "whitewashed" by "whitey".

You cannot put all Mexicans together in one group.There are Mexicans who HATE the Mexican government because of its corruption and its incompetent leaders. Those Mexicans might have loyalty to the Mexican country, but not the government(if that is what worries you).

Poverty is what makes them dive into the ghetto culture.They do not have the money to hang out with "normal" people(no trips, no brand name items, no vacation, etc), they fail school because the lack of money deters them from getting a tutor - if not that, it is the ghetto culture that prevents them from getting help at school, thanks to the whole "nerd" 'loser' status that none of them want to attain. I have met many brilliant Mexican students, but what irritates me is the way they give up so easily.Why do they give up?It turns out many of them lose hope.They get into the mindset of "No use for education if i cannot use it for a job", " Why study, if education won't help", "why" go to college if my degree will be worthless"(because of their immigration status).

Trust me, they are the most hardworking people i have ever met, do not for a moment think that they are born "dumb", the reason they fail is because they go through many hardships. I have had many Mexican friends all my life, therefore I should know.

I understand this is a bit off-topic...but in order to be rational - we cannot believe and hold on to racist thoughts.

Don't let one individual or one group derail you from using your mind. Hatred breeds deep inside you at an astronomical rate - do your best to try and stop it from taking over your brain.

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"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science, whatever the matter may be." ~ Lord Kelvin