Then I would be grateful to you if you told me what these were, because it might increase my appreciation of the series and I'm sure as hell not gonna read it again.

I have already noticed that GRRM is fond of saying "a tall man with dark hair and patchy cloak" in reference to a singer that was mentioned once 2000 pages and two books ago, as well expecting you to remember who he's talking about when he starts referencing houses by their colors and devices. I suppose if you're an aficionado this stuff is gold. To me, it's just brown.

Quote:

Also two fairly major characters have their story arcs ended in it, so it can seem a bit anti-climactic.

You mean

Spoiler: show

Sandor and Gregor Clegane?

Yes, it was anticlimactic, and in keeping with GRRM's tradition of giving unworthy deaths to characters who deserved more. Which is again something I don't like.

Sandor which you've figured out, and the return of Jaqen H'Gar at Oldtown

There's also Maester Aemon figuring out

Spoiler: show

That Valyrian is a gender-neutral language and that everyone's male understandings of the prophecies in relation to Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised (which are almost certainly the same thing) are implying that Dany is fulfilling it, and everything Rhaegar did in attempting to make it happen was a massive waste of blood. Literally everything that happened from when Liana Stark was captured could have been avoided if Rhaegar had a good translation. But the only man qualified to do it was on the wall and deliberately forgotten.

I know what you mean about these things feeling brown. It's really quite overwhelming and hard to put the effort into for what seems like little reward. All I can say is that it picks up again big time towards the end of book 5.

Also all the stuff with Cersei in charge is gold on the second read. Once you can see that she's fucking incompetent and thinks she's a goddess, it's cringingly hilarious. It's almost like watching The Office.

I know what you mean about these things feeling brown. It's really quite overwhelming and hard to put the effort into for what seems like little reward. All I can say is that it picks up again big time towards the end of book 5.

My problem is that it was a shitty reward not worth waiting 10 years for. I'm not wasting my time re-reading all the previous books every time a new one comes out because it's simply been so long I forgot all the minor details. I did it once and it wasn't worth it, I'm not doing it again in 2015 and 2019.

Quote:

Also all the stuff with Cersei in charge is gold on the second read. Once you can see that she's fucking incompetent and thinks she's a goddess, it's cringingly hilarious. It's almost like watching The Office.

Gendry? He doesn't die in AFfC. Am I to understand he dies in ADwD? Don't worry, I won't mind if you say so.

Quote:

The two biggest subtle reveals are:

Spoiler: show

Sandor which you've figured out, and the return of Jaqen H'Gar at Oldtown

Spoiler: show

Um... what about Sandor? I mean, for a while we're led to suspect someone other than him is wearing his helm doing the bad stuff, but later the whole story is told to us straight out. As to Jaqen H'Gar, I thought it might be him, but unless I'm forgetting some detail about him there was no way to be certain of it. He is a faceless man, you see.

Quote:

There's also Maester Aemon figuring out

Spoiler: show

That Valyrian is a gender-neutral language and that everyone's male understandings of the prophecies in relation to Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised (which are almost certainly the same thing) are implying that Dany is fulfilling it, and everything Rhaegar did in attempting to make it happen was a massive waste of blood. Literally everything that happened from when Liana Stark was captured could have been avoided if Rhaegar had a good translation. But the only man qualified to do it was on the wall and deliberately forgotten.

Right, but what Aemon figured out at the end of AFfC was obvious to us the readers at least as early as the first half of A Storm of Swords, where in the third Davos chapter Melisandre was saying to Stannis

Quote:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Quote:

Also all the stuff with Cersei in charge is gold on the second read. Once you can see that she's fucking incompetent and thinks she's a goddess, it's cringingly hilarious. It's almost like watching The Office.

Yeah, she's almost as idiotic as she is vile. That's what Lord Tywin would do!

I don't remember this at all. I do remember the Azor stuff, but I don't remember if I realized this prior to ADwD.

Okay, I looked it up. ACoK, last Arya chapter:

Quote:

“I do. My time is done.” Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

AFfC, prologue:

Quote:

“As you wish.” The alchemist pulled his hood down. He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. “I do not know you.”

What seals it is Sam's last chapter of ADwD, where he meets Pate, while we, the readers, know that Pate is dead.

The alchemist also refers to himself as 'no one', and the poisoned coin is coincidentally similar to the trick that Arya pulls in ADwD with her first 'official' kill, both of these linking him back to the house of black and white in Braavos.

Edit: actually wait, Sam is absent from ADwD, that was the last words of AFfC where he meets Pate again.

True, but first we see Jaqen put on a face with curly black hair, hooked nose, and a faint scar on the right cheek, then someone with curly black hair, hooked nose, and a faint scar on their right cheek kills Pate in Oldtown using a poisoned coin, and then Pate, hale and healthy, is serving under Archmaester Marwyn, alias The Mage. Just how many Faceless Men are running around Westeros?

Sandor which you've figured out, and the return of Jaqen H'Gar at Oldtown

There's also Maester Aemon figuring out

Spoiler: show

That Valyrian is a gender-neutral language and that everyone's male understandings of the prophecies in relation to Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised (which are almost certainly the same thing) are implying that Dany is fulfilling it, and everything Rhaegar did in attempting to make it happen was a massive waste of blood. Literally everything that happened from when Liana Stark was captured could have been avoided if Rhaegar had a good translation. But the only man qualified to do it was on the wall and deliberately forgotten.

I know what you mean about these things feeling brown. It's really quite overwhelming and hard to put the effort into for what seems like little reward. All I can say is that it picks up again big time towards the end of book 5.

Also all the stuff with Cersei in charge is gold on the second read. Once you can see that she's fucking incompetent and thinks she's a goddess, it's cringingly hilarious. It's almost like watching The Office.

Spoiler: show

I don't know how anyone can consider Sandor or Gendry's arcs to have been ended.

What seals it is Sam's last chapter of [AFfC], where he meets Pate, while we, the readers, know that Pate is dead.

The really confusing bit was learning that Alleras (the Sphinx) now called himself Pate. He could have taken on his name, but what about all those guys at the beginning of the book who knew the Sphinx and Pate are two different people?

What seals it is Sam's last chapter of [AFfC], where he meets Pate, while we, the readers, know that Pate is dead.

The really confusing bit was learning that Alleras (the Sphinx) now called himself Pate. He could have taken on his name, but what about all those guys at the beginning of the book who knew the Sphinx and Pate are two different people?

Uh, no he doesn't.

Quote:

“There’s an empty sleeping cell under mine in the west tower, with steps that lead right up to Walgrave’s chambers,” said the pasty-faced youth. “If you don’t mind the ravens quorking, there’s a good view of the Honeywine. Will that serve?” “I suppose.” He had to sleep somewhere. “I will bring you some woolen coverlets. Stone walls turn cold at night, even here.” “My thanks.” There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous, so he added, “My name’s not Slayer, truly. I’m Sam. Samwell Tarly.” “I’m Pate,” the other said, “like the pig boy.”

There's no way Alleras can be described as "pale". The working theory about Alleras, a.k.a. Sphinx, is that he's Sarella Sand, one of Oberyn Martell's daughters, the one whose mother is said to be a summer islander. Sarella is conspicuously away, her name spelled backwards is Alleras, the Sphinx is described as half-Dornish and half-Summer Islander - as 'he' admits at some point - and sports a widow's peak, just like the Red Viper.

“There’s an empty sleeping cell under mine in the west tower, with steps that lead right up to Walgrave’s chambers,” said the pasty-faced youth. “If you don’t mind the ravens quorking, there’s a good view of the Honeywine. Will that serve?” “I suppose.” He had to sleep somewhere. “I will bring you some woolen coverlets. Stone walls turn cold at night, even here.” “My thanks.” There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous, so he added, “My name’s not Slayer, truly. I’m Sam. Samwell Tarly.” “I’m Pate,” the other said, “like the pig boy.”

There's no way Alleras can be described as "pale". The working theory about Alleras, a.k.a. Sphinx, is that he's Sarella Sand, one of Oberyn Martell's daughters, the one whose mother is said to be a summer islander. Sarella is conspicuously away, her name spelled backwards is Alleras, the Sphinx is described as half-Dornish and half-Summer Islander - as 'he' admits at some point - and sports a widow's peak, just like the Red Viper.

Ah. OK. I had forgotten about "the other novice" mentioned a few rows above, and thought that it was Alleras telling Sam about the ravens.

Quote:

We're shown in AFfC that Sandor is alive. He's given up his former life, true, but he's not dead.

I assume you're referring to the last Brienne chapter in AFfC. I reread it just now and I have no idea what's going on in it. Probably because it's intentionally written from the perspective of a dazed and blooded woman in the midst of a fever dream. Nevertheless, I don't see that we can draw the conclusion that Sandor is still alive. The wiki seems to agree with me:

Meanwhile, Rorge recovered Sandor's distinctive 'snarling dog' helm from his gravesite and embarked upon a brutal spree of banditry across the region, culminating in the vicious sack of Saltpans. With reports identifying the culprit only by the helm, Rorge's crimes have been attributed to Sandor. Rorge was later killed by Brienne of Tarth[17] and the helm was taken by Lem Lemoncloak when the Brotherhood arrived. Thoros of Myr advised Lem to abandon the helm, seeing it as a symbol of Sandor's rage, but the bitter Lem refused.

“There’s an empty sleeping cell under mine in the west tower, with steps that lead right up to Walgrave’s chambers,” said the pasty-faced youth. “If you don’t mind the ravens quorking, there’s a good view of the Honeywine. Will that serve?” “I suppose.” He had to sleep somewhere. “I will bring you some woolen coverlets. Stone walls turn cold at night, even here.” “My thanks.” There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous, so he added, “My name’s not Slayer, truly. I’m Sam. Samwell Tarly.” “I’m Pate,” the other said, “like the pig boy.”

There's no way Alleras can be described as "pale". The working theory about Alleras, a.k.a. Sphinx, is that he's Sarella Sand, one of Oberyn Martell's daughters, the one whose mother is said to be a summer islander. Sarella is conspicuously away, her name spelled backwards is Alleras, the Sphinx is described as half-Dornish and half-Summer Islander - as 'he' admits at some point - and sports a widow's peak, just like the Red Viper.

Ah. OK. I had forgotten about "the other novice" mentioned a few rows above, and thought that it was Alleras telling Sam about the ravens.

Quote:

We're shown in AFfC that Sandor is alive. He's given up his former life, true, but he's not dead.

I assume you're referring to the last Brienne chapter in AFfC. I reread it just now and I have no idea what's going on in it. Probably because it's intentionally written from the perspective of a dazed and blooded woman in the midst of a fever dream. Nevertheless, I don't see that we can draw the conclusion that Sandor is still alive. The wiki seems to agree with me:

Meanwhile, Rorge recovered Sandor's distinctive 'snarling dog' helm from his gravesite and embarked upon a brutal spree of banditry across the region, culminating in the vicious sack of Saltpans. With reports identifying the culprit only by the helm, Rorge's crimes have been attributed to Sandor. Rorge was later killed by Brienne of Tarth[17] and the helm was taken by Lem Lemoncloak when the Brotherhood arrived. Thoros of Myr advised Lem to abandon the helm, seeing it as a symbol of Sandor's rage, but the bitter Lem refused.

Spoiler: show

That is selective quoting from the wiki, right under the part where it says " there are hints in the passage suggesting the Elder Brother considers "the Hound" to be simply an aspect of Sandor's personality, and that Sandor himself may have survived and joined the monastery on the Quiet Isle." Also, his horse, which only he can ride, is at the monastery.

I guess at this point you are abandoning spoilers because you are lazy.

We're shown in AFfC that Sandor is alive. He's given up his former life, true, but he's not dead.

I assume you're referring to the last Brienne chapter in AFfC. I reread it just now and I have no idea what's going on in it. Probably because it's intentionally written from the perspective of a dazed and blooded woman in the midst of a fever dream. Nevertheless, I don't see that we can draw the conclusion that Sandor is still alive. The wiki seems to agree with me:

Meanwhile, Rorge recovered Sandor's distinctive 'snarling dog' helm from his gravesite and embarked upon a brutal spree of banditry across the region, culminating in the vicious sack of Saltpans. With reports identifying the culprit only by the helm, Rorge's crimes have been attributed to Sandor. Rorge was later killed by Brienne of Tarth[17] and the helm was taken by Lem Lemoncloak when the Brotherhood arrived. Thoros of Myr advised Lem to abandon the helm, seeing it as a symbol of Sandor's rage, but the bitter Lem refused.

No, not the last chapter, the the third from the last. Excerpt:

Quote:

“I am certain that the child was with Sandor Clegane at the inn beside the crossroads, the one old Masha Heddle used to keep, before the lions hanged her. I am certain they were on their way to Saltpans. Beyond that . . . no. I do not know where she is, or even if she lives. There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead.” That was another shock. “How did he die?” “By the sword, as he had lived.” “You know this for a certainty?” “I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place. That was a grievous error. Some other wayfarer found my marker and claimed it for himself. The man who raped and killed at Saltpans was not Sandor Clegane, though he may be as dangerous. The riverlands are full of such scavengers. I will not call them wolves. Wolves are nobler than that . . . and so are dogs, I think. “I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey’s sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother’s blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for . . . and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear.” “You sound as if you pity him,” said Brienne.“I did. You would have pitied him as well, if you had seen him at the end. I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for his wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms. You may have seen a big black stallion in our stables. That was his warhorse, Stranger. A blasphemous name. We prefer to call him Driftwood, as he was found beside the river. I fear he has his former master’s nature.” The horse. She had seen the stallion, had heard it kicking, but she had not understood. Destriers were trained to kick and bite. In war they were a weapon, like the men who rode them. Like the Hound. “It is true, then,” she said dully. “Sandor Clegane is dead.”

Yet earlier in the same chapter, there's this:

Quote:

They passed a dozen brothers of the order on their way up; cowled men in dun-and-brown who gave them curious looks as they went by, but spoke no word of greeting. One was leading a pair of milk cows toward a low barn roofed in sod; another worked a butter churn. On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. “Be more watchful there,” chided Brother Narbert. “Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt.” The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

My interpretation is that Sandor was picked up by the monks, who nursed him back to health, and he has joined them, perhaps never to return. Of course Martin could be throwing the readers a red herring.

I guess at this point you are abandoning spoilers because you are lazy.

I am pretty lazy, but I did write in the OP

Quote:

I'd also like a thread where we don't have to include spoiler tags with every post.

Nevertheless, let it not be said I am not accommodating.

Quote:

Spoiler: show

That is selective quoting from the wiki, right under the part where it says " there are hints in the passage suggesting the Elder Brother considers "the Hound" to be simply an aspect of Sandor's personality, and that Sandor himself may have survived and joined the monastery on the Quiet Isle." Also, his horse, which only he can ride, is at the monastery.

Not selective quoting, my eyes glazed over and I didn't even see that.

Yeah the monk is very careful to say that The Hound is dead, but he never says Sandor is. It's pretty clear that he's a monk now, and I think it's safe to assume we won't see him again. Ditto for Gendry, he's found somewhere relatively safe where he's needed and accepted. I doubt he'll ever leave there, and I doubt the story will return there.

But to truly become a faceless man, she'd lose her Arya-ness. She's not actually a true fit for being a faceless man. She has her vengeance list, whereas the faceless men don't do it for vengeance. That's going to come to a point of confrontation in not too long.

Of course, the faceless men have undoubtedly dealt with this during their training before and have ways to handle it. They're probably good at eradicating invididual personalities. But do they know that part of her personality is in a wolf on another continent?

But to truly become a faceless man, she'd lose her Arya-ness. She's not actually a true fit for being a faceless man. She has her vengeance list, whereas the faceless men don't do it for vengeance. That's going to come to a point of confrontation in not too long.

Of course, the faceless men have undoubtedly dealt with this during their training before and have ways to handle it. They're probably good at eradicating invididual personalities. But do they know that part of her personality is in a wolf on another continent?

YEah that's it. They've never trained a warg before so they won't be able to change her completely.

Alright, in an attempt to leave the other thread as unspoiled as possible, what are people's impressions of Margaery's "willingness to do whatever it takes"? Some people in the other thread are noticing that the TV version seems to be a little more Machiavellian than the book version. Thoughts?

I never got the impression that the book version of Margaery was particularly cunning. Not quite the dim bulb that is Sansa, but also not really an amoral manipulator either.

Alright, in an attempt to leave the other thread as unspoiled as possible, what are people's impressions of Margaery's "willingness to do whatever it takes"? Some people in the other thread are noticing that the TV version seems to be a little more Machiavellian than the book version. Thoughts?

I never got the impression that the book version of Margaery was particularly cunning. Not quite the dim bulb that is Sansa, but also not really an amoral manipulator either.

I thought she was - I got the impression that she was willing to marry Joffrey, despite knowing he was vile. She manipulates Tommen, despite Cersei's objections.

Alright, in an attempt to leave the other thread as unspoiled as possible, what are people's impressions of Margaery's "willingness to do whatever it takes"? Some people in the other thread are noticing that the TV version seems to be a little more Machiavellian than the book version. Thoughts?

I never got the impression that the book version of Margaery was particularly cunning. Not quite the dim bulb that is Sansa, but also not really an amoral manipulator either.

Spoilered just in case because I've lost track of if there are massive spoilers here or not.

Spoiler: show

Her dimness is half an act and half what people mistake her sweetness for. She and her grandmother basically assassinated Joffrey right under the noses of Cersei, the Kingsguard, the schemers like Littlefinger and Varys... everyone in the court.

And why? Not for power, she would have had that by just marrying him as planned, especially if she was "willing to do whatever it takes". No, they snuffed him because they knew he was an evil little shit, had it confirmed via Sansa and did not want their house joined with that. She's not ammoral. The people love her and she's kind and mindful of them, which is unusual in Westeros. See her attempting to groom Tommen into a good king, and getting right up Cersei's nose in the process (which nearly cost her life).

It seems her character is different in the TV show. Probably partially merged with her grandmother's. A pity I think.

We have Ser Dontos passing the hair net to Sansa from Sansa's own POV though, so that's reliable. Ser Dontos belonged to Littlefinger lock stock and barrel, and Littlefinger knew too much of the plot to not have been involved. Remember that Sansa's escape from Joffrey's wedding was his own operation.