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Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!

Why not just replace the tuning pin with a size or two larger and be done with it forever?

How to replace piano tuning pins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLoa4De6RZs&feature=channel&list=ULI have found video. I would like to hear an assessment of these actions technicians about replace the pin. I would see to link to the video that use the sand paper, glue, bronze shim and other materials. Man to torque pin when replace it's . Are you to hammer pin?

What have been said is that the carboard was not staying efficient long enough, under normal utilization, meaning with normal tuning. I am unsure you can judge of the efficiency, as you are new to tuning, I am not sure you understand how the pin is locked in the hole. (like an alpinist in a chimney) May be the glue used in your cardboard is giving some friction, the cardboard in itself is too slippery, to me.

Turning the new pin in one have to wait a lot to avoid heat, heat is counterproductive, the metal grows.Tuning pins are usually hammered (because it is faster, it is turned when one want to be cautious) . A new tuning pin have a new fresh clean thread that provide more friction than the old used pin.

Hammering the new pin is not know as causing problems, it may even provide a new wood surface to the pin (and often the hole is bored/reamed so to install longer pins and to be sure to have some "fresh wood" unfortunately, too thick pins are difficult to tune so there is a limit, and I try to avoid boring whenever possible.

I dont like to change a few tuning pins, changing them all is coherent and sometime done without moving the piano. (indeed a full box of pins is expensive)

Changing the whole strings set is not that long (and wire is not expensive) but the stabilization, massaging wire, having everything back in place, can take some time.

At last changing treble strings (they are the ones that age first) is a good service to be done to professional pianists.

Edited by Kamin (06/07/1203:14 AM)

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Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!

I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?

See those are similar marketing practices as used in the USA, you should try to sell there, you have the good basic instinct for that

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Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

What have been said is that the carboard was not staying efficient long enough, under normal utilization, meaning with normal tuning. I am unsure you can judge of the efficiency, as you are new to tuning, I am not sure you understand how the pin is locked in the hole. (like an alpinist in a chimney) May be the glue used in your cardboard is giving some friction, the cardboard in itself is too slippery, to me.

Turning the new pin in one have to wait a lot to avoid heat, heat is counterproductive, the metal grows.Tuning pins are usually hammered (because it is faster, it is turned when one want to be cautious) . A new tuning pin have a new fresh clean thread that provide more friction than the old used pin.

Hammering the new pin is not know as causing problems, it may even provide a new wood surface to the pin (and often the hole is bored/reamed so to install longer pins and to be sure to have some "fresh wood" unfortunately, too thick pins are difficult to tune so there is a limit, and I try to avoid boring whenever possible.

I dont like to change a few tuning pins, changing them all is coherent and sometime done without moving the piano. (indeed a full box of pins is expensive)

Changing the whole strings set is not that long (and wire is not expensive) but the stabilization, massaging wire, having everything back in place, can take some time.

At last changing treble strings (they are the ones that age first) is a good service to be done to professional pianists.

Let me disagree with you,Kamin in the following points:1 Who is proclaimed that shim corrugated board is bad? Where are the facts, experiments and research on this issue? In the Internet no also the videos about it except my own. Although it is not modest, but alas no.2 "Too slick cardboard". It is not out of place, I think. My method, I have repeatedly said about this is not working whole cardboard. But it's destroyed in the process of screwing microparticles this cardboard creates full a friction. Which provide the necessary friction when pin replace3 If I am a newbie, how to explain the functionality of any of hundreds of pianos. In which I have successfully used the cardboard. I must to screws replay pin about 30-40 every week . I'm like no other I have a full understanding as to is the friction between the pins-shim-pinblockRegards, maxim_tuner

Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!

I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?

The children sang several songs at parting. I would not want to know what they understood or not during the installation of shims. For me, and art director this children garten is not so important how it works. The main thing is that the "Swallow" ( Ласточка) once again began to sing (began to play). I shall and hope think to many time. In GOD we trust

See, you dont want to listen, Max . I dont care in the end if it works for you, but the tunings you provide as samples are not convincing , nor the way you manipulate the hammers and tuning pins, that is why I am not sure you are aware of what we expect to keep a tuning pin in position at normal tuning precision level.

You are indeed like no other and need to progress as anyone, since you have mastered the sensations and the listening , so to tune from note 1 to note 88 with a decent result.

So you see it suffice to affirm strong enough and to repeat on public media that you are a good professional , for the thing to get some reality after some time.

We are all proud of our precedent learning and experiences but mastering that kind of job is a totally different thing that what can be seen on the small window of youtube videos (hopefully, or I would not have customers)

Best wishes

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!

I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?

The children sang several songs at parting. I would not want to know what they understood or not during the installation of shims. For me, and art director this children garten is not so important how it works. The main thing is that the "Swallow" ( Ласточка) once again began to sing (began to play). I shall and hope think to many time. In GOD we trust

I was joking ! I dont wake up in nightmares in the middle of the night because of you Maxim

It is nice to try to help , I respect that part of the job you do.

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

So you see it suffice to affirm strong enough and to repeat on public media that you are a good professional , for the thing to get some reality after some time.

I no can agree with you Kamin, write. Because as the subject of our conversation should not be restricted, that Max is not able tuning a piano. Here and now to discuss only one issue. Would the installation of corrugated shim under pin to provide the necessary friction or not? Is no third

Max, hurry up! if you where living in the US you may yet have setup a small selling market of your special corrugated cardboard.

Dear Kamin ,I'm not going to move now and conquer the United States. I don't impose your ideas repair for anyone. I am very critical attitude towards any comments, but there is no criticism from the technicians. Today, me invited the head of a kindergarten place do corrugated cardboard shims in RF small town Buzuluk about 200 km from my city. She carefully watches my movies and found that only I can restore them piano. For me, this is a great honor to help the children. Tomorrow the car going for me and I'm going to this town . I hope that everything will turn out. God bless us!

I am horrified ! you show corrugated paper shim to young child in Kindergarden ?

What will they think when they will be growing ?

The children sang several songs at parting. I would not want to know what they understood or not during the installation of shims. For me, and art director this children garten is not so important how it works. The main thing is that the "Swallow" ( Ласточка) once again began to sing (began to play). I shall and hope think to many time. In GOD we trust

Cardboard = paper = wood fiber. I see no reason why a cardboard shim is any worse than any other shim, and no one has really demonstrated why it would be.

As I said earlier, once the pin is back in place, it's only being turned millimeters during normal tuning. Even as the cardboard disintegrates, it's cellulose/wood fiber/wood pulp going into the minute crevices and areas between the pin and the block.

Not saying that in the end this will prove to be a viable method. Just saying that for my reasoning, no one has disproven it yet or given me a solid reason why this method doesn't work.

Cardboard = paper = wood fiber. I see no reason why a cardboard shim is any worse than any other shim, and no one has really demonstrated why it would be.

As I said earlier, once the pin is back in place, it's only being turned millimeters during normal tuning. Even as the cardboard disintegrates, it's cellulose/wood fiber/wood pulp going into the minute crevices and areas between the pin and the block.

Not saying that in the end this will prove to be a viable method. Just saying that for my reasoning, no one has disproven it yet or given me a solid reason why this method doesn't work.

I express gratitude Loren D what as you have meticulously feel technic and practic side of problem " I don't see a reason to deny the positive side of the cardboard shim". I do not know how well to work shim made of other materials, because of I limited material. I do not have the resources and time for such experiments. My typical day consists of routine work. I have to work hard to earn some money for my family, so we did not die of starvation. However, I am very sad, if I can not bring back to life yet another worn out vertical. Recently time, I must replace many pins before me begin the tuning process. I am very tired of this and so my temperament are far from perfect. However, I still feel the strength to fight. I live only delight of customers, piano which condemned and sentenced to death . I give them one chance to play the piano if can renovation their verticals . This does not mean that the whole world should adopt my method. Any truth only works when there is an alternative and the test to find a new one. I think and hope its the only viable method that helps ordinary lay people do not lose their vertical in the former Soviet Union. Previously, you have correctly said the essence of that cardboard pin is not harmful to the entire pinblock our piano. That is, we act like a doctor with his main postulate of "Do no harm." So,minimum material resources for this method it is basic. I would be formulated as follows: "with minimal threat to the piano is the cheapest method of restoring additional tight pin into pinblock." A year ago I could hardly understood what people write here on this forum . Now more and more I try without translate of machine. I am grateful to the participants of our forum

I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity.

I'll give it a few tunings over the next few months and just see what happens.

Can't hurt this old piano, and it is not going to be rebuilt. All it will take is a bit of time.

Got to be better than those split metal shims.

Roy, please do! And please report back. I for one am curious. I'd like to see a controlled test on whether or not this can work. I know there's a tendency to immediately discount the method, but CA glue for tuning pins was also considered radical a few years ago.

[quote=Roy Rodgers]I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity. I'll give it a few tunings over the next few months and just see what happens.Can't hurt this old piano, and it is not going to be rebuilt. All it will take is a bit of time.<<

Greetings,While you are at it, shave off, with a plane, a couple of shavings from a piece of hardwood like ash, or maple, or maybe oak. They should be about .008" thick, and maybe 3/8" wide. Try those on similar pins to the cardboard, and let us know which works best. Regards,

[quote=Roy Rodgers]I have an old upright that has several loose pins. Not really worth restoring. But might for grins a giggles use Maxs cardboard shim method just to satisfy my own curiosity. Try those on similar pins to the cardboard, and let us know which works best.

Friends, it would be nice to adopt an see a comparative analysis of lot way to decide this problem. What a way to be more preferable? We are to waiting for Roy's tests

I tried but not on a pinblock, in a block of soft wood and the carboard seem to provide a grip sensation, but it seem to me that the carboard have turned to powder in the hole (I have seen powder once the pin is taken out) May be the glue is helping to raise the friction, as it cannot be the thickness of the cardboard that provided it in that case.

It may be better than to use abrasive. In that very soft wood it worked better than the brass shims, that is why I believe it have to do with the material.

I will try to do more tests with a wrench & measuring torque , in new holes and in a new piece of block. I will compare with the poplar shims I have (I was told to use hard wood as oak, but our veneer those days is not as good as it was when I learned; It is thinner and sliced; old veener can be took of from old boards.Long time I did not do that, but I recall sometime the pins where really difficult to turn with the veener.

What bothers me is not that you are pleased with your method, but you did not want to try others that are accessible (it may not be difficult to find some veeners or chips of hard wood)

Edited by Kamin (06/07/1205:52 PM)

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Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

I will try to do more tests with a wrench & measuring torque , in new holes and in a new piece of block. I will compare with the poplar shims I have (I was told to use hard wood as oak, but our veneer those days is not as good as it was when I learned; It is thinner and sliced; old veener can be took of from old boards.Long time I did not do that, but I recall sometime the pins where really difficult to turn with the veener.

Dear Kamin, I'm really glad and honor for me, what do You so much and write about it properly. If You will do it, then regardless as result I'll be grateful to you for your experiments. Corrugated or poplar? What of better? Looking forward to your acts and your test verdict. To be or not to be ..

Unfortunately I can't find it now, but I remember that a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)

I do remember what he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Perhaps the technician who posted that can point us to the post. I think it was in one of Max's previous threads.

One more plus of shim corrugated cardboard In my daily practice, often have to install it's in the (C#3-F#3) малая октава. Pins in this place are very close to each other. Destroyed by the hole of pinblock can not fix if we shall hammering oversize pin to hammer. If to repair hammering on pin, it loses his integrity. Because the wooden wall of the hole into pinblock and to bush of increasing pressure from the pin here . If we shall hammer repairs or shim pin is, it inevitably increases the burden on the already weakened the wooden wall , and thus will inevitably suffer, located adjacent the nearby hole of pinblock and it's bush. Conclusion: Use only the method of screwing in the area (C#3-F#3), use a shim or oversize pin. Don't hammer here! Only to screw a shim corrugated cardboard

[quote=Mark R.] a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.) he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Greetings, That was me. It was at the North Bennett Street School. We were expected to know how all approaches worked. Everything from sandpaper shims to Garfield's Pinblock Restorer! The cardboard got soft quicker than anything.

I guess so too, but the hypothesis could be that the glue within the cardboard is changing the effect, acting as a resin. Did you use cardboard or corrugated in that testing ?

Standard cardboard cannot do much , if it happens that the glue contained in the corrugated cardboard add something may be some added product could be used so to fix more the powder or to thicken where necessary.

Edited by Kamin (06/08/1211:58 AM)

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Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Unfortunately I can't find it now, but I remember that a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.)

I do remember what he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Perhaps the technician who posted that can point us to the post. I think it was in one of Max's previous threads.

Dear Mark R, I very well remember the remark. But I have to say and clarify the there to it was spoken about the classical shim. I already wrote that my shim have are two components . First part is destroyed as result screwing pin and second part it's product cellulose microparticles separated from basic body. It to make filling the cracks in the oval-destroy hole of pinblock

[quote=Mark R.] a few months ago, an experienced technician posted on this forum that when he was training (I think in the 1980s), at his school they did exactly such an experiment comparing all the various repairs for loose tuning pins. (I think it included oversize pin, metal shim, wood veneer shim, sandpaper, cardboard and perhaps some others.) he wrote about the result: initially, all the repairs provided adequate grip. But they did not last equally long. The cardboard repair was the first one to fail.

Greetings, That was me. It was at the North Bennett Street School. We were expected to know how all approaches worked. Everything from sandpaper shims to Garfield's Pinblock Restorer! The cardboard got soft quicker than anything.

Ed Foote,If I understand you correctly cardboard has been recognized as a result of these experiments is not the worst of other materials