There's not much activity going on in the forums here, so I'm posting a few topics to see if I can't goad you all into some conversation.

m(_ _)m

This is a study published in Scientific American. My feeling is the article must be wrong but the evidence, as they present it, seems solid. Either way, so you agree with it? If the article is too long for you to read, what are your thoughts on the correlation of guns and violence?

Myself, when I lived in Los Angeles I wouldn't allow a gun in my house. These days, were I to still live in the states, I'd want one.

There's not much activity going on in the forums here, so I'm posting a few topics to see if I can't goad you all into some conversation.

m(_ _)m

This is a study published in Scientific American. My feeling is the article must be wrong but the evidence, as they present it, seems solid. Either way, so you agree with it? If the article is too long for you to read, what are your thoughts on the correlation of guns and violence?

Myself, when I lived in Los Angeles I wouldn't allow a gun in my house. These days, were I to still live in the states, I'd want one.

Guns are out of control in the USA. Especially in the hands of cops who are morons. Cops are not supposed to use their gun unless someone's life is in immediate danger. But that concept is totally ignored.

I don't think people's guns should be allowed to leave their house. People are not responsible enough to weild that much power. There should be a yearly tax on gun ownership, just like people have to have a license to drive and pay for car insurance and yearly registration fee. The same should apply to guns.

The 2nd amendment does not give people the right to bear arms EXCEPT in a WELL ORDERED MILITIA.

Guns are out of control in the USA. Especially in the hands of cops who are morons. Cops are not supposed to use their gun unless someone's life is in immediate danger. But that concept is totally ignored.

I don't think people's guns should be allowed to leave their house. People are not responsible enough to weild that much power. There should be a yearly tax on gun ownership, just like people have to have a license to drive and pay for car insurance and yearly registration fee. The same should apply to guns.

The 2nd amendment does not give people the right to bear arms EXCEPT in a WELL ORDERED MILITIA.

Oh, here's something you and I actually disagree on.

I used to be anti-gun until the Omar Matis shooting in that FL latino gay bar. Around the same time, two black men took to the street to shoot cops. To kill the two shooters the police set out a robot to snipe them: the police used military-grade equipment to quell a non-military confrontation. That changed my opinion (forever?).

This is hypothetical but I think I would feel better were I able to carry a handgun with me.

Also, our country was founded from a rebellion against the government. Should the need ever arise again and local arm enforcement were manned like the military, then The People should be able to resist. I know what I just wrote is a hugely controversial today and largely a what if -- or is it? Catalin wants to break apart from Spain. They've democratically elected to leave. If the government won't allow them to shouldn't The People have the ability to fight against their government?

Guns are out of control in the USA. Especially in the hands of cops who are morons. Cops are not supposed to use their gun unless someone's life is in immediate danger. But that concept is totally ignored.

I don't think people's guns should be allowed to leave their house. People are not responsible enough to weild that much power. There should be a yearly tax on gun ownership, just like people have to have a license to drive and pay for car insurance and yearly registration fee. The same should apply to guns.

The 2nd amendment does not give people the right to bear arms EXCEPT in a WELL ORDERED MILITIA.

Oh, here's something you and I actually disagree on.

I used to be anti-gun until the Omar Matis shooting in that FL latino gay bar. Around the same time, two black men took to the street to shoot cops. To kill the two shooters the police set out a robot to snipe them: the police used military-grade equipment to quell a non-military confrontation. That changed my opinion (forever?).

This is hypothetical but I think I would feel better were I able to carry a handgun with me.

Also, our country was founded from a rebellion against the government. Should the need ever arise again and local arm enforcement were manned like the military, then The People should be able to resist. I know what I just wrote is a hugely controversial today and largely a what if -- or is it? Catalin wants to break apart from Spain. They've democratically elected to leave. If the government won't allow them to shouldn't The People have the ability to fight against their government?

I've never been to that club in Orlando (Pulse), but I am quite familiar with the area and I know a lot of people who have gone to that club.That WAS a gay club, however, that massacre was not an attack on gay people. That area has very few latinos. It does have a lot of blacks, but they were not there. The people who go to that club are almost all white males - during NORMAL hours. That night was special. They were having an AFTER HOURS Latino Night.. a special event. Almost all the victims were latino, and quite a few women. That club was just being used as a VENUE for that Latin night. Many latinos showed up with their familes and girlfriends, etc. Omar Mateen WAS bisexual, but his grudge was not against gays, but against the latino community including his latino boyfriend who dumped him. Most of the victims drove in from far away. The only local victim I could find was a latin guy that worked at Universal Studios theme park in Orlando. During normal hours, that club would be filled with white boys - many of whom work at Walt Disney World. WDW staff is VERY gay. While on this topic.. the news media twisted that story all to hell. There are always cops outside that club during operating hours. A cop noticed Mateen and followed him into the club. The cops that were inside the club fled when the shooting started. The swat team surrounded the building.. while Mateen spent over half an hour slaughtering those 50+ people. I guarantee you that many of the victims were shot by the POLICE. I don't understand why they didn't cut electricity to the building to make it so the shooter could not see (and they would have night vision), or shoot in some sort of tear gas, or send in dogs, etc. The police were like the Keystone Kops in that incident, and yet the media made them out to be heroes. It's amazing that all those people were killed, yet not one cop suffered a significant injury. Hmm.... It's sort of like firemen who wait for a building to be reduced to ashes before doing anything.

While on this topic.. the news media twisted that story all to hell. There are always cops outside that club during operating hours. A cop noticed Mateen and followed him into the club. The cops that were inside the club fled when the shooting started. The swat team surrounded the building.. while Mateen spent over half an hour slaughtering those 50+ people. I guarantee you that many of the victims were shot by the POLICE. I don't understand why they didn't cut electricity to the building to make it so the shooter could not see (and they would have night vision), or shoot in some sort of tear gas, or send in dogs, etc. The police were like the Keystone Kops in that incident, and yet the media made them out to be heroes. It's amazing that all those people were killed, yet not one cop suffered a significant injury. Hmm.... It's sort of like firemen who wait for a building to be reduced to ashes before doing anything.

Well, this doesn't really touch on the main issue of whether guns should be regulated, outlawed, are making a positive or negative difference but I'll work with what I've got.

It's easy for you and I, who have no law enforcement training, to sit read and speculate after the fact. There are protocols in place for these kinds of situations. When the situation is unprecedented, they look for the closest fit and adapt or apply it. I can not fault the police based on what I've read on the incident.

As for speculating that people were shot by police, unless you have evidence to support that, forensics reports, etc. we must go by what is already public knowledge: Mateen shot those people. Conspiracy theories are fun, kinda like plot crafting when watching a TV show between episodes, but this kind of speculation can take root and create mistrust in local law enforcement, something we need less of.

I'm not sure why you're talking about firemen. You make it sound like they don't do their jobs.

While on this topic.. the news media twisted that story all to hell. There are always cops outside that club during operating hours. A cop noticed Mateen and followed him into the club. The cops that were inside the club fled when the shooting started. The swat team surrounded the building.. while Mateen spent over half an hour slaughtering those 50+ people. I guarantee you that many of the victims were shot by the POLICE. I don't understand why they didn't cut electricity to the building to make it so the shooter could not see (and they would have night vision), or shoot in some sort of tear gas, or send in dogs, etc. The police were like the Keystone Kops in that incident, and yet the media made them out to be heroes. It's amazing that all those people were killed, yet not one cop suffered a significant injury. Hmm.... It's sort of like firemen who wait for a building to be reduced to ashes before doing anything.

Well, this doesn't really touch on the main issue of whether guns should be regulated, outlawed, are making a positive or negative difference but I'll work with what I've got.

It's easy for you and I, who have no law enforcement training, to sit read and speculate after the fact. There are protocols in place for these kinds of situations. When the situation is unprecedented, they look for the closest fit and adapt or apply it. I can not fault the police based on what I've read on the incident.

As for speculating that people were shot by police, unless you have evidence to support that, forensics reports, etc. we must go by what is already public knowledge: Mateen shot those people. Conspiracy theories are fun, kinda like plot crafting when watching a TV show between episodes, but this kind of speculation can take root and create mistrust in local law enforcement, something we need less of.

I'm not sure why you're talking about firemen. You make it sound like they don't do their jobs.

.There's no excuse for allowing Mateen to slaughter all those people over a 30 minute period before going in to stop him.

===Government workers tend to have a "license to loaf" at the county and city levels.

There's no excuse for allowing Mateen to slaughter all those people over a 30 minute period before going in to stop him.===Government workers tend to have a "license to loaf" at the county and city levels.

Well, a quick google search shows that people did ask why it took so long for law enforcement to act. The answer I read most often was a variation of

"The answer to whether authorities made the right move by not going in more quickly may rest in two questions: Was this an active-shooter situation or a hostage crisis? And at what point did it pivot from one type of scenario to another?In active-shooter situations, police are now trained to respond immediately, even if only one or two officers are available to confront the suspect. In a hostage crisis, law enforcement generally tries to negotiate."

Further googling revealed that no investigation was launched after, so no wrongdoing was found.

There's no excuse for allowing Mateen to slaughter all those people over a 30 minute period before going in to stop him.===Government workers tend to have a "license to loaf" at the county and city levels.

Well, a quick google search shows that people did ask why it took so long for law enforcement to act. The answer I read most often was a variation of

"The answer to whether authorities made the right move by not going in more quickly may rest in two questions: Was this an active-shooter situation or a hostage crisis? And at what point did it pivot from one type of scenario to another?In active-shooter situations, police are now trained to respond immediately, even if only one or two officers are available to confront the suspect. In a hostage crisis, law enforcement generally tries to negotiate."

Further googling revealed that no investigation was launched after, so no wrongdoing was found.

Hindsight will always be 20/20 in these kinds of situations.

... and WHO would investigate it? What you said was exactly correct! There was no wrongdoing found.. because there was no investigation launched!!

In Florida, and probably in other states, cops have nothing more than a GED or High School diploma. It used to be that they wanted cops who can think. Now they want cops that "do" instead of "think".

The cops followed Mateen into the club, then fled the club. They never should have left. The hostage aspect ended when Mateen started slaughtering the people inside.. and continued to do so for over half an hour.

Getting back to what you pointed out... regardless of whether the police acted appropriately or not.. no investigation was ever launched! There is no excuse for not investigating what happened.

I have another story that occurred in St. Petersburg Florida a few years earlier. This man who was a friend of the mayor had a warrant out for his arrest. A cop went to his house, and his mother said he was not home. The cop didn't believe her and it turned out the man was in the attic. The man had a gun. Now, keep in mind that this man was trapped up in the attic, he wasn't going anywhere. meanwhile, an off-duty cop showed up. The cop got impatient, and tasered the man. The man was not happy about being tasered, and shot the cops, killing them both. Then somehow the house was set on fire - with the man still in the attic.. killing him. The entire house was bulldozed the next day preventing any investigation. The only reason the story ever got published is because the man was the mayor's buddy.

@Fred, there was a case many years ago in which a policeman was refused a job because he was too smart. The reason is that police work is dull and will bore a sharp mind. He went to court and I believe won.

When you start talking about the abuses by the police -- and there are many -- I would ask you then to rethink your stance on kneeling during the NFL. The protest started because Kaepernick wanted to draw attention to what the police have been doing to black people in the US. Trump changed the message to disrespecting the flag/vets.

In light of what you think about the police, what do you think of the kneeling protest AND Black Lives Matters in the context of a reaction to police abuse?

@Fred, there was a case many years ago in which a policeman was refused a job because he was too smart. The reason is that police work is dull and will bore a sharp mind. He went to court and I believe won.

When you start talking about the abuses by the police -- and there are many -- I would ask you then to rethink your stance on kneeling during the NFL. The protest started because Kaepernick wanted to draw attention to what the police have been doing to black people in the US. Trump changed the message to disrespecting the flag/vets.

In light of what you think about the police, what do you think of the kneeling protest AND Black Lives Matters in the context of a reaction to police abuse?

The subject of what is being protested is lost when the protesters are total assholes.. such as the BLM people. I actually love police, all they need is worstershire sauce. The NFL players are not "citizens" expressing themselves. They are wearing a uniform, being paid a fortune, and being presented to millions of people - many of them children - on live TV. Trump is right. You kneel.. and your fired. Simple as that. What's next? Players shooting a bird / giving the finger on live TV? Dropping their pants and taking a dump in the endzone? (one recently simulating urinating in the endzone - and you couldn't tell that it was simulated from a distance).

About 2 years ago, there was a revelation in New York in which the resumes of people with high IQs were being REJECTED.

In the case of Colon Coprolite, he should not have dropped to a knee to protest police, but his idea of having pig police socks was great! If I didn't live in Florida where it's too damned hot to wear socks, I would wear socks like that.

Lastly.. there is a silver lining to everything. Football is 99% hype.. and actually quite boring. Anybody that disagrees with this should try watching a game without the play-by-play or knowing which teams are playing. That could easily be done by watching a Canadian Football game. I wonder if the Arena Football players are doing this kneeling shit. This current NFL trend is like opening Pandora's box, and it can't end until the NFL ultimately makes a rule against it - they have to or it will never end. By having these ambiguous, random, nonsensical, offensive protests, the popularity of football is going down the toilet.. where it belongs. Sports like soccer, rugby, and hockey are superior to football. Football is a pussy sport with far too many stops in the action, far too many rules, and the players wear so much protection and padding that you can't see the human in the silly costume and a tank could run over them without harming them much.

@Fred, there was a case many years ago in which a policeman was refused a job because he was too smart. The reason is that police work is dull and will bore a sharp mind. He went to court and I believe won.

When you start talking about the abuses by the police -- and there are many -- I would ask you then to rethink your stance on kneeling during the NFL. The protest started because Kaepernick wanted to draw attention to what the police have been doing to black people in the US. Trump changed the message to disrespecting the flag/vets.

In light of what you think about the police, what do you think of the kneeling protest AND Black Lives Matters in the context of a reaction to police abuse?

The subject of what is being protested is lost when the protesters are total assholes.. such as the BLM people. I actually love police, all they need is worstershire sauce. The NFL players are not "citizens" expressing themselves. They are wearing a uniform, being paid a fortune, and being presented to millions of people - many of them children - on live TV. Trump is right. You kneel.. and your fired. Simple as that. What's next? Players shooting a bird / giving the finger on live TV? Dropping their pants and taking a dump in the endzone? (one recently simulating urinating in the endzone - and you couldn't tell that it was simulated from a distance).

About 2 years ago, there was a revelation in New York in which the resumes of people with high IQs were being REJECTED.

In the case of Colon Coprolite, he should not have dropped to a knee to protest police, but his idea of having pig police socks was great! If I didn't live in Florida where it's too damned hot to wear socks, I would wear socks like that.

Lastly.. there is a silver lining to everything. Football is 99% hype.. and actually quite boring. Anybody that disagrees with this should try watching a game without the play-by-play or knowing which teams are playing. That could easily be done by watching a Canadian Football game. I wonder if the Arena Football players are doing this kneeling shit. This current NFL trend is like opening Pandora's box, and it can't end until the NFL ultimately makes a rule against it - they have to or it will never end. By having these ambiguous, random, nonsensical, offensive protests, the popularity of football is going down the toilet.. where it belongs. Sports like soccer, rugby, and hockey are superior to football. Football is a pussy sport with far too many stops in the action, far too many rules, and the players wear so much protection and padding that you can't see the human in the silly costume and a tank could run over them without harming them much.

So, in short, you're saying that when a player puts on the uniform they lose their individuality and become a representative of the team, is that correct? By extension, since people usually support a team because they identify with it, a protesting bended knee ends up representing the people who support that team.

That makes sense.

To that I would add that I turn on sport to escape from reality, not be immersed in it. There's more than one reason Hollywood's been losing big at the box office these past few years and now those reasons are spilling over into sports.

@Fred, there was a case many years ago in which a policeman was refused a job because he was too smart. The reason is that police work is dull and will bore a sharp mind. He went to court and I believe won.

When you start talking about the abuses by the police -- and there are many -- I would ask you then to rethink your stance on kneeling during the NFL. The protest started because Kaepernick wanted to draw attention to what the police have been doing to black people in the US. Trump changed the message to disrespecting the flag/vets.

In light of what you think about the police, what do you think of the kneeling protest AND Black Lives Matters in the context of a reaction to police abuse?

The subject of what is being protested is lost when the protesters are total assholes.. such as the BLM people. I actually love police, all they need is worstershire sauce. The NFL players are not "citizens" expressing themselves. They are wearing a uniform, being paid a fortune, and being presented to millions of people - many of them children - on live TV. Trump is right. You kneel.. and your fired. Simple as that. What's next? Players shooting a bird / giving the finger on live TV? Dropping their pants and taking a dump in the endzone? (one recently simulating urinating in the endzone - and you couldn't tell that it was simulated from a distance).

About 2 years ago, there was a revelation in New York in which the resumes of people with high IQs were being REJECTED.

In the case of Colon Coprolite, he should not have dropped to a knee to protest police, but his idea of having pig police socks was great! If I didn't live in Florida where it's too damned hot to wear socks, I would wear socks like that.

Lastly.. there is a silver lining to everything. Football is 99% hype.. and actually quite boring. Anybody that disagrees with this should try watching a game without the play-by-play or knowing which teams are playing. That could easily be done by watching a Canadian Football game. I wonder if the Arena Football players are doing this kneeling shit. This current NFL trend is like opening Pandora's box, and it can't end until the NFL ultimately makes a rule against it - they have to or it will never end. By having these ambiguous, random, nonsensical, offensive protests, the popularity of football is going down the toilet.. where it belongs. Sports like soccer, rugby, and hockey are superior to football. Football is a pussy sport with far too many stops in the action, far too many rules, and the players wear so much protection and padding that you can't see the human in the silly costume and a tank could run over them without harming them much.

So, in short, you're saying that when a player puts on the uniform they lose their individuality and become a representative of the team, is that correct? By extension, since people usually support a team because they identify with it, a protesting bended knee ends up representing the people who support that team.

That makes sense.

To that I would add that I turn on sport to escape from reality, not be immersed in it. There's more than one reason Hollywood's been losing big at the box office these past few years and now those reasons are spilling over into sports.

Exactly! And I have a very recent example to illustrate what you just said. They have rebooted the series "Will & Grace". The premier episode aired recently.. and was hated by both the left and the right. It focused heavily on attacking Donald Trump in an absurd way. That is especially stupid for a TV series, because the big money in TV series is their eventual syndication. Any show that focuses on the news of the day is destroying it's own value for future syndication. TV shows have historically avoided direct links to current events for that very reason.