Comments on: Are de-converts doomed to live in the pit of existentialist despair?http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/
Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......Tue, 03 Mar 2015 02:17:55 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: livefreeordiehttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-33455
Mon, 04 May 2009 02:51:23 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-33455dispair (sic)
]]>By: livefreeordiehttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-33454
Mon, 04 May 2009 02:50:47 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-33454This all sounds like whistling in the dark to me. 100 years from now, a few of us will be an encylopedia entry, the rest of us will be lucky if someone takes a rubbing off of our crumbling tombstones for an art project.

Yes, the only atheists I respect are the existentialists because they realize that if there is no god then suicide is the only legitimate question.

The efforts on this page to try to patch over the absolute dispair and meaningless of life is ludicrous. You have only replaced what you laugh at with a faith that is even less legitimate.

As I’ve thought about life without God over the last year or so, I’m often scared by the fact that now, outside the faith, there are no second chances. I’m curious, because I’ve been reading some Sartre- how do you (any of you) deal with the responsibility that falls on humanity in a God-less universe? Without God, there’s no cosmic forgiveness, but even worse, there are no cosmic rules in the first place. Sartre says in choosing for ourselves, we choose what it means to be human. This is a responsibility that I don’t want to deny, but neither do I want to shoulder it.

I’m attracted to existentialism because it seems to be honest atheism. It’s up in arms over God’s non-involvement. I can’t stand smug atheism that wants to rub it in everyone’s face, like it’s all good news- “We can do whatever we want, no one’s going to yell at us!” It’s not good news – It’s terrifying. It transfers all responsibility to us- for who we are, what we do, and what becomes of us. And it means there really are no second chances. If you were born with no legs, too bad – you’ll never know what it feels like to run. If you made a bad decision and got pregnant at 16, tough luck – you’ll never get to relive your 20s. I guess I am still adjusting to the idea that God won’t somehow trump all bad circumstances with the “deeper purpose” card. It sucks.

Sartre says we are “condemned to be free.” I can’t bear it, but I think it is the most honest and brave response to life without God I have heard yet.

]]>By: Psydanhttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-19443
Thu, 22 May 2008 12:17:25 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-19443Wow Bryan, it’s so weird to hear the introduction, your background, being exactly what I’ve just come out of. The fundy-baptist upbringing, divorce in early college, realization of the uselessness of prayer in our world, the collapse of faith and search for meaning. I had to rationalize it out though, and fast.
I hold that all value and meaning with or without God is eventually given by humans, each of us individually. We decide what kind of good we expect from God, we give the value of family and heroism and love its power. Hollywood can capitalize on that, religion can manipulate it, but it’s within ourselves to assign value. Gold is useless, just shiny, yet it has extreme value to those who have it or want it, because they give it that value.
My life is the most important thing because it’s all I truly have, and I give myself value because my struggles and stories are meaningful to me as a person, without any God-given purpose or natural sense of wonder. I can say I am the one who most certainly fulfills what I value, I am the one acting out my desires every day, and if others like my values and think my life is meaningful, all the more value.
That being said, I feel even more value in being reminded that I’m a part of this massively complex and amazing cycle and I’m the product of wonderful biology, thousands of years of social change and improvement, and many millions of years of evolution.
Each of our lives are meaningful and intrinsically wonderful, and it’s great to just meditate on that, especially if it’s from ourselves, and not meaning coming from a being (god) infinitely more complex than us, much better than us, which always (intentionally by the church) made me feel like scum. In Nature I’m a sufficiently evolved being doing what I’ve evolved to do best–adapt and live.
]]>By: poison-babyhttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-19406
Wed, 21 May 2008 00:04:05 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-19406someone at the top of this list said they were trying to read as many de-conversion stories as they can to try and understand how family members feel. I grew up on religious compounds, completely isolated from society until I was sixteen years old, and the truth of the matter is, I was the last member of my family to break away from the faith I’d grown up in. In an effort to understand how they feel, I would recommend trying to understand what drives their strive to strengthen their faith in God. If you figure out what the promised rewards/benefits are for them personally, then you will understand what it is you’re proposing to annihilate for them.
In a time where we are involved in a war that garners its support from religious bravado and an age where scientific advancements are held back due to moral objection, I do understand the frustration and the utter contempt that’s shared among non-believers. That contempt still leaves me feeling wounded though. For some of us, who’ve lost our religion, its been a painful ride. If reality and rationale was so appealing there’d be a hell of a lot less drug addicts and alcoholics in the world. Before its even said, I’m well aware of the pain and suffering religion adds to that reality … all too well aware! I have a fifth grade education, worked in sweat-shop conditions since childhood, and suffered every form of abuse known to man in the name of God. Don’t start with me! lol
Its a case of what comes first? The chicken or the egg? Is it pain and injustice that make man invent a God, or is it the invention of God that induces pain and suffering? Either way, “we didn’t start the fire”. People seek God for comfort, for peace, for hope and a way to understand the incomprehensible in a world that dictates beyond their conscious awareness what their emotional reactions to life will be to all the given situations they’ll encounter. They seek each other for a sense of belonging in an age where people are more isolated than they have ever been. They seek purpose and perimeter in an impossibly boundless world.
You’re offering to take away their sense of hope, purpose, belonging, love, importance and understanding of the world. How easily would you surrender?
I don’t know the answer, but I do know that our entire history, in every remote corner of the world, man has created a God or Gods for all of the above reasons. I love the main article, but I know hardcore atheists who would blow it up as approaching spiritual values and lacking in pure reason and logic. I say we need to address what makes a person turn to religion and I’m not referring to political leaders and such, I’m referring to the common every-day person and the things they feel the lack of in their life that they look for God to fill. I honestly believe atheists need to become a bit more compassionate.
]]>By: Bryanhttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15826
Sun, 10 Feb 2008 04:06:33 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15826slaveofone,

First, to clarify, the words you responded to above were mine, not Karen’s — she relayed my post from another forum.

“I find it incredibly interesting that the main problem that [Bryan] had was one in which [he] couldn’t make [his] beliefs align reasonably with reality and so [his] solution was to purposely hold a belief that couldn’t at all be aligned with or be affected by a non-alignment with reality.”

My sense of wonder is based precisely on knowledge we have gained about the nature of our universe and ourselves as human beings. This sense is based on my understanding of reality. I don’t understand why you say it is independent of it.

“The change isn’t one of finding a reasonable way to believe, but one of abandoning reason completely so that all [he] is left with is non-rational feeling or emotion.”

I see this quite differently. I think my view conforms to reason by accepting the things we are most certain are true, and remaining uncommitted concerning what we don’t know. I believe this is more rational than an approach that stakes out a priori claims in metaphysical territory (for example, based on ancient writings) and then defends those positions against all comers.

“I am also quite fascinated by the fact that [he] chose “wonder” to mean “well-being” and not chaos or barbarism or cruelty or non-well-being. Of course, [his] choice is entirely non-rational since it is not tied to anything but an emotional feeling that [he] arbitrarily decided to have instead of these others

I agree that my experience of a sense of wonder at thinking about the nature of our existence is not rational (though I’d describe it as extra-rational rather than irrational, since I don’t believe it is opposed to reason). Experiencing a sense of wonder involves emotional engagement, which I think involves extra-rational mechanisms within our brains. Do you see that differently? You seem to be saying that in developing one’s sense of meaning no extra-rational step should be admitted, and I don’t see how that is possible.

You say that my sense of wonder could have led me to choose chaos or barbarism rather than well-being. First, I’d say that I didn’t experience this as a conscious choice in which I came to a logical crossroad and decided to go one way rather than the other. I just followed a chain of thought (at least quasi-rational) from the point of an awareness of wonder to the conclusion that the sense of wonder is well-expressed by promoting well-being. I understand that this involves a value judgment, and there exists an infinite series of deconstructions and tortuous philosophical analyses that can drain all color from any statement of value. That, I believe, is a path directly to the heart of existentialist despair (and I say that as one who formerly walked that path).

“Good luck there, young dreamwalker. A path out of existential despair that is not.”

Well, this path has led me out of existentialist despair, your claim to the contrary notwithstanding. From what I remember of my mathematical background, I believe that’s called an existence proof. :-)

]]>By: slaveofonehttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15822
Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:12:08 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15822“Believing in, and feeling, the wonder of our existence has accomplished that for me. It is valid whether or not there is a God.”

I find it incredibly interesting that the main problem that Karen had was one in which she couldn’t make her beliefs align reasonably with reality and so her solution was to purposely hold a belief that couldn’t at all be aligned with or be affected by a non-alignment with reality. In other words, the problem has not gone away—it has only increased. The change isn’t one of finding a reasonable way to believe, but one of abandoning reason completely so that all she is left with is non-rational feeling or emotion. To make an analogy of it: it is like a prisoner who could not make herself believe she would ever be free of her prison, so she decided to pretend she was living in a fairyland instead. I know what that’s like because I started out life in the fairyland. But since I was smarter than I gave myself credit for, I was constantly plagued by the knowledge that my non-rational beliefs didn’t allow me to function and survive in the world. They actually drove me further from the world. I wasn’t crazy enough to actually have no knowledge that I was acting insane so the inconsistencies between my emotional-feeling-beliefs and nature almost destroyed me with existential despair.

I am also quite fascinated by the fact that she chose “wonder” to mean “well-being” and not chaos or barbarism or cruelty or non-well-being. Of course, her choice is entirely non-rational since it is not tied to anything but an emotional feeling that she arbitrarily decided to have instead of these others… But I’d be willing to bet that she will end up being just as disappointed as she was before when the rug was pulled out from under her…unless she actually allows herself to go insane… In either case, her prison hasn’t released her and she offers no escape to anyone else either. Some of my greatest idols who went down this path either went insane, killed themselves, or changed how they thought.

Good luck there, young dreamwalker. A path out of existential despair that is not.

]]>By: Phil E. Drifterhttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15216
Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:25:31 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15216ps: just to extrapolate a bit more on my position, since the chances are slim to none that i’ll ever come back to this page, ‘doomed to live in the pit of existential dispair’? Excuse me? I don’t even worry about crap like that, and I certainly don’t base my actions on the assumption that when I die I’ll be judged by some all-powerful being who ‘made us in his own image’ and then judges us based on the mistakes we’ve made…being based on his own image.

Religion is a tool used bring guilt and fear into the masses, nothing more.

]]>By: Phil E. Drifterhttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15215
Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:14:41 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15215belief in god is silly and niave and superstitious, and anyone who chooses to believe in such nonsense does not get any respect from me.

I went to 12 years of catholic school, paid for by my mother, and I thank her for it considering I got a far better education than I would have had I gone to one of Philadelphia’s public schools, but, jesus christ, religion is horse shit.

To paraphrase the great George Carlin, “God is an almighty, all-powerful being who can do anything…but he needs your money! If you go against god’s wishes you will burn in hell for all eternity! (But he LOVES you!)

Utter nonsense, I don’t understand how these people can look at themselves in the mirror every morning with a straight face.

]]>By: Jerseyhttp://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15157
Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:58:41 +0000http://de-conversion.com/2008/01/11/are-de-converts-doomed-to-live-in-the-pit-of-existentialist-despair/#comment-15157Angelique Kidjo wrote this on the CD booklet of her latest album Djinn Djinn: