I wouldn't say speed lowering moves are useless, but ever since Trick Room (among other options) were introduced, it was quite the nail to the coffin for stuff like Scary Face (which is probably the best choice). However there's still a good amount of people who use Low Sweep and Bulldoze.

Scary Face was never an option. You don't use attacks that only lower opposing stats. If you do it as an added effect, it's OK, but things like Scary Face, Leer, Growl etc. aren't that good.As for useless moves, there are Water Sport, Mud Sport, Take Down, Round... the list is quite big.

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The chill of death, the heart of a metalhead. A lonerebel.I'm a competitive battler, ask me if you have any questions on competitive battling or want advice on Ubers teambuilding.Credit to DragoBoy for the banner!The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!

There are times when status-dropping moves to the opponent are handy for pseudo-hazing purposes, although usually only moves that drop two stages in one turn, like Charm.

Now, if you want an actual move that sucks, take a look at Razor Wind. It is inexplicably an 80 BP charging move that, despite the name, is Normal-type rather than Flying-type, and is barely learned by anything in the first place. It could be deleted and nobody would care, or they could buff it by removing the charging turn and it still would be outclassed by Return, Body Slam, etc.

Let's face it; no recoil move (aside from the obvious exception of Struggle) is useless because although the deliberate self harm is not ideal, recoil moves tend to be powerful and useful (not always). An example would be Flare Blitz.

Let's face it; no recoil move (aside from the obvious exception of Struggle) is useless because although the deliberate self harm is not ideal, recoil moves tend to be powerful and useful (not always). An example would be Flare Blitz.

Agree with vaporterra. Also, we have Rock Head and Magic Guard; both prevent the pokemon from the recoil.

Take Down is useless because it has very low accuracy for a recoil move and because there are numerous moves much better than it. Wild Charge, on the other hand, might not really need the recoil, but it's still the strongest physical Electric attack so yeah, it's useful.But Razor Wind is really stupid. Seriously, it's a slightly more powerful Slash. Why does it need a charge turn?

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The chill of death, the heart of a metalhead. A lonerebel.I'm a competitive battler, ask me if you have any questions on competitive battling or want advice on Ubers teambuilding.Credit to DragoBoy for the banner!The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!

_________________These past years have been great, and this community was a great one. Key word being was. Since my birthday last year, the site hasn't updated at all, and people have been slowly trickling away from the forums over the weeks. I've had this site as my internet homepage for ages, and I anxiously awaited the resurgence that I hoped would come. But it never came. So, it is with a heavy heart that I announce my permanent leave of Psypoke. As a moderator, I wished only the best for everyone here, and worked to maintain a jolly environment where everyone could discuss cartoon monsters in peace. Now, I wish all those who happen to be reading this message good luck in whatever endeavors you have chosen to pursue, and that your futures be bright.

The chill of death, the heart of a metalhead. A lonerebel.I'm a competitive battler, ask me if you have any questions on competitive battling or want advice on Ubers teambuilding.Credit to DragoBoy for the banner!The only ones who should kill are those who are prepared to be killed!

I don't see you criticizing Swagger. Swagger and Flatter are the same move except Swagger boosts your opponent's Attack while Flatter boosts your opponent's Special Attack. A good move idea for Generation 6 would be a variation that boosts your opponent's Speed.

The thing is that Swagger has much more purpose than Flatter because Swagger boosts the stat that causes damage when a Pokemon hurts itself in confusion. The strategy is to ramp up the Attack stat -- and Swagger raises Attack by 2 stages while Flatter raises SA by only one stage, by the way -- and hope the opponent hurts itself for increased damage due to that very boost. Flatter, on the other hand, boosts an irrelevant stat to the confusion formula and is really only useful for Double Battles where you can do things like use Flatter on an ally Pokemon who is immune to confusion. A Speed variation of Swagger/Flatter would be in the same boat.

That's true. Maybe they'll change the confusion mechanics to make Special Attack a factor in confusion damage, however hopefully if they did that, they wouldn't let boosted Attack and boosts Special Attack overlap. I could talk about my idea more but I don't think many people are interested. And unless Flatter becomes available to many more Pokemon, it won't matter too much.

My idea for a Speed-boosting Swagger variant would be to add more strategy like if a Pokemon could use that move and Trick Room, for example. At this point more and more new moves will involve thinking outside the box.

Always figured Water Sport & Mud Sport to be pretty useless. Especially when one considers that the moves they're supposed to protect against (fire/electric) are already really weak against the types that can USE WS or MS to begin with. I have found stat-lowering moves to be useless as well. While I'm trying to lower your speed (or attack, or defense or whatever), you destroying me with moves that actually DO something. The shield attacks are about the same to me, I throw up Protect, your attack doesn't hit ... cool, but then you just destroy me on the next move - what the hell good did it do?

So far, I'm seeing the same things in X & Y with stat-lowering moves & shield-type moves. All of my team are getting these replaced with real attacks just as quickly as I can get them to learn them.

_________________Yes ... I'm 55 years old and only began playing Pokémon in '09. I may have to grow old, but I do NOT have to grow up!

Can think of a good combination using Flatter. My Gardevoir uses Psych-up or something so it copies the oppoments stat changes. Maske sure that it's a more physically-attacking pokemon, like Machamp. Then, use Flatter. The severe boost in Special Attack doesn't really help them, and it ends up helping me. Plus, there's the added effect of Confusion for them to deal with. Hahaha! Gardevoir used Flatter, and your Machamp has no life.

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-The Cutest Kirlia

Resident shipper girl of Psypokes. Also writes noncanon fanfic, Forest of Secrets may not actually be worked on again, though. . . much too busy.

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