Sunday, April 27, 2014

Saint-making – the Great and the Good

Popes John Paul II and John XXIII were canonised today at a ceremony at St Peter's in Rome – the first time that two dead popes have simultaneously been declared saints, and the first time any dead pope has been declared a saint in the simultaneous presence of two living popes. Pope Paul VI is to follow on in October when he will be beatified.

It is not clear at this stage whether Pope Francis will continue waiving the requirement for miracles to establish saintliness and holiness. But, as the seemingly automated pope-to-saint conveyor belt churns out these sanctifications, it is worth asking why the 20th century produced especially holy popes compared to all the previous centuries. Indeed, in the six centuries between Gregory the Great and Thomas Beckett, there were no new canonisations at all. Perhaps waves of emotional fervour fused with X-Factor populism require the contemporary cult of "Santo Subito".

His Grace can't help thinking about poor Pope John Paul I, who was, by all accounts, a truly humble and very saintly man. And poor Pope Benedict XVI, who is also not likely to be hurriedly enrolled among the sanctified when he dies, for his papacy wasn't sufficiently modernist for the fluffy and pink zeitgeist.

Pope John XXIII becomes Pope Saint John XXIII (or Pope Saint John the Good) for having called the historic Second Vatican Council (1962–65). Perhaps this was miracle enough to establish his saintliness. But, for many Roman Catholics, not least the traditionalist Pope Emeritus Benedict, that Council sowed the progressive seeds of an awful lot of ecclesio-doctrinal confusion. For Cardinal Kasper, its documents are intentionally ambiguous:

"In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction."

Speaking of Nostra Aetate, Pope Benedict XVI said:

"Thus, in a precise and extraordinarily dense document, a theme is opened up whose importance could not be foreseen at the time. The task that it involves and the efforts that are still necessary in order to distinguish, clarify and understand, are appearing ever more clearly. In the process of active reception, a weakness of this otherwise extraordinary text has gradually emerged: it speaks of religion solely in a positive way and it disregards the sick and distorted forms of religion which, from the historical and theological viewpoints, are of far-reaching importance; for this reason the Christian faith, from the outset, adopted a critical stance towards religion, both internally and externally."

Pope John Paul II becomes Pope Saint John Paul II (or Pope Saint John Paul the Great) despite having presided over the Vatican during the global scandal of child sex abuse and the proliferation of priestly paedophilia. Indeed, many of those who sought to protect the legacy and good name of Pope Benedict XVI emphasise the undeniable chronic failures of Pope John Paul II, with some pointing to the papal sinecure gifted to Cardinal Bernard Law following allegations of a systematic cover-up in his archdiocese of Boston.

But none of this seems to matter. Perhaps in his personal and sainted holiness, Pope John Paul II was either oblivious to the thousands of cases of priestly rape and torture of children, or he really did do everything he possibly could to cleanse the Roman temple and mitigate the spread of evil. In truth, we cannot know.

But on saintly intercession, the Church of England's Article XXII is clear:

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

Let us by all means have saints, for they are holy ones who are sanctified by virtue of being "in Christ". But divine perfection comes not from the cultic declaration of the intercessory efficacy of John Paul the Great or John the Good, but by belonging to the communion of saints and worshipping among the priesthood of believers.

If we are to attribute especial holiness to particular individuals, and acknowledge their personal piety and historic ecclesio-theological contributions beyond the grave, let us this year – in the 500th anniversary year of his birth – make joyful affirmation of the remarkable Reformation saint John Knox.

A Motion has been tabled by Murdo Fraser MSP in the Scottish Parliament to do precisely that, and it has already attracted a number of cross-party signatures:

That the Parliament recognises the 500th anniversary of John Knox’s birth; notes his contribution to modern Scotland and Protestantism; understands that he is recognised as the founding father of the Scottish Reformation and of Presbyterianism in Scotland; encourages Scots to explore his contribution toward the country's religion, government and identity; notes that Knox helped write the new confession of faith and the ecclesiastical order for the newly created reformed church; considers that, with hundreds of thousands of members, this denomination still plays a significant role in modern day Scotland; believes that Knox's work helped to shape the democratic form of governance that the Church of Scotland adopted; acknowledges the events taking place to celebrate this anniversary in his birthplace, Haddington, and commemorates the life of a man whom it sees as one of Scotland’s greatest sons.

As Scotland seemingly moves towards historic independence, let us not forget the history of the Kirk or the uniqueness of Scottish devotion and their contribution to the Christian spirituality of the United Kingdom. Some will only see the arid summations of Calvinist orthodoxy flowering on very rocky soil. But John Knox's didactic and polemical contribution was deep, tender and loving: from the Secession congregations in the Lowlands to the evangelical Establishment in the Highlands, he made the Scottish Reformation a movement of great spiritual gain, of fellowship, of family and nationhood.

John Knox may not have been declared 'blessed', 'sanctified', 'great' or 'good', but he is undoubtedly a saint. By sweeping away too many superstitious cults and tearing down too many bogus traditions, we are in danger of forgetting that supernatural sanctity and miraculous manifestation did not die with the Apostles.

92 Comments:

Well Your Grace. Erm, it is permissible to call you that, isn’t it. Wouldn’t want to wrongly attribute you with the trappings of beyond a mere humble mortal, you know. Wouldn’t be right to compromise your fine egalitarianism concerning us worldly wretches, Mary mother of God included.

Anyway, it’s all part of the RCC infrastructure. Nothing to be concerned about. Rather like the gongs handed out to the great and good in the UK. Granted, the two men concerned weren't actors, or sportsmen, or leaders in commerce, but they get the highest recognition just the same. Oh, yes - one important condition – you have to be in a state of deadness.

So there you have it. Yes, child abuse went on in the church, and the perpetrators abused the Christian necessity of forgiveness, but we have to realise that the homosexual condition was just not appreciated for what it is. A continuing danger to the young. One thinks we can be assured that aspect is more than appreciated now !

I gather a few more relics have been gathered to add to the ever growing collection in the RCC(and not just the Popes) phials of blood and a piece of skin.How nice.A few more dead saints to add to the prayer list?.

Indeed, Your Grace, the Roman Church does seem to be in danger of debasing the coinage. Perhaps the global audience for the Wedding of William and Catherine still rankles and this spectacular is designed to re-assert the supremacy of Rome.

Your Grace speculates, ' Pope John Paul II was either oblivious to the thousands of cases of priestly rape and torture of children...' This communicant suspects that this was undoubtedly the case. After all, Wojtyla spent his early manhood as a seminarian and a priest on the run from the Nazis, losing many of his contemporaries to the Gestapo. With this personal experience, one can imagine the possibility of a priest abusing the trust placed in him would have been unthinkable to JP2. He was clearly on a very different moral planet.

'Some will only see the arid summations of Calvinist orthodoxy flowering on very rocky soil.'

Beautifully put, and for those who have yet to collide with the Free Presbyterian Church, right on target.

If saints and "stuff" helps others to edge closer to God then who am I to criticise that? I enjoy reading about the ancient "Saints", who I regard as role models, no more or less, but I find it difficult to relate to recent ones - is that logical, probably not ? I have plain(ish) tastes, but we are all different.

Len. Relics provide a continuity in the church. Obviously not as continuous as Christ's words and deeds, but for us tangible evidence that Christianity continues. One cannot see how any of God’s laws are broken by their existence. But what does it matter to you anyway, you are not of Christ’s church. Just a lone voice keeping his distance from the rest of us.

No Len. You are not of the flock, but you do come into contact with it. So, what are you then ? Sheepdog? No, your self appointing authority is no authority at all, not for Christ’s organised flock. So what can you be, TB carrying badger perhaps ?

Who gets canonized? The Great. The mighty. The famous. The religious. Popes and Bishops and priests. Mystics and seers of visions. That whole 'must have performed miracles' requirement drives the conclusion. But the ordinary man living the ordinary unseen life? It's Purgatory for him. The whole thing reminds me of the legend surrounding the pool of Siloam. The angel stirs the water and the great and mighty jump in to get canonized. Because God prefers the Great and Mighty.

I suppose now that JPII is a saint, they will dig up his miraculously preserved corpse, stick it in a glass case, and venerate it. Perhaps there might even be a miracle or two in its embalmed organs to keep the Sainthood train running.

Visiting Rome as tourists one summer in the nineties, my wife and I were wandering round St Peter's when we suddenly spotted the Pope just a few yards away, chatting (in Polish, I think -- we were close enough to hear his voice) with a very happy group of visitors. So now, although we can't say we've actually met a saint, at least we've been in the same room with one.

Well Shadrach, far from it being the Inspector that condemns Len, he does it himself. He’s quite proud to announce he rejected organised Christianity as a youth. That includes the CoE. Our shining beacon of insincerity doesn’t advertise THAT fact lest he be booted off this avowedly Anglican site of course. Anti church that he be.

No, there is a fence of his own making between us and him. He can stay that side of it for the duration if he wants to. No problem there.

On the general issue of saints, Protestantism recognises pre reformation saints. That they choose not to install their own is neither here nor there. The concept is in place.

Uncle Brian a word of warning keep your distance from religious artifacts they can be dangerous.

'Last week in Italy, a giant crucifix dedicated to one ofthese catholic "saints" fell over and crushed a youngman to death'.Very sad... but that's a graphic example of what Religion isdoing to millions of people every day: crushing them beneath theweight of idiotictraditions and man-worship.

The historical Archbishop Cranmer would cheerfully have punished Knox as a Puritan.

The historical Church of England expelled those with Knoxian sympathies in the 1680s, and then spent the next 300+ years pretending to be Catholic.

Those left in the Church of England closest to Knox are accused of splitting the Anglican Communion with the Anglican Realignment and told that practices resembling Presbyterianism are utterly un-Anglican, because Anglicanism wears robes and has very important Bishops.

So yes, it would be terrific to see the Church of England hold a service in honour of Knox. I'd be watching with popcorn.

If you good folks find yourself in Edinburgh, walk down the Royal Mile towards the parliament building and you'll find John Knox House on the left hand side, just past Carrubbers Christian Centre. Well worth a visit.

"There lies he who never feared the face of man" - Earl of Morton at Knox's funeral.

Inspector, our friend Len has declared support for Criag Winn who is allegedly having conversations with God. He has been informed Christianity is a false construct. Our faith was all made up by Saint Paul, you see, who was demon possessed at the time.

Yes, Jack knows it is hard to believe such nonsense but it does explain a lot.

(sigh) I had better give you Catholics the scriptures because you don`t seem to know them...

The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10)

I am beginning to understand why so many Catholics are swarming under His Graces table looking for crumbs to devour its because there is no food suitable to sustain them in their dry and dusty halls of religion...And that incense thing swinging about makes ones eyes water.

I am concerned that the Christian Church, both Catholic and Protestant, has been infiltrated by communists and satanists. So, it might be that the Roman Catholic Church was established in accordance with Jesus' commands, but if it is now ruled by the antithesis of Christianity, who am I to trust. Similarly, if the CofE is ruled by atheists and non Christians, who is to purge them from the body of Christ? I am probably sounding unhinged, but if Jesus' word was paramount, then many of the decisions and actions in both parts of Christianity would have been condemned unreservedly by the leaders of the Churches. That they are not speaks volumes. On that basis, giving someone the appellation 'Saint' is as worthless as giving someone the title of 'lord' or 'sir' in our country. In both cases it leads on to suspect the recipient has done something they ought to be ashamed of.

Relics provide objects that can be treated with idolatry, as do the 'Saints' as opposed to the saints.

I'm afraid the church of Rome is the schismatic, not anyone else, for they left the Church a long time ago & preach of 'gospel' of you must rather than the true gospel of He did.

BTW, the Bible defines who is a saint as in:

"To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2 ESV

Martin, one doesn’t deny bone worship (idolatry) exists. It’s just that you have to go to primitive parts of the world to see it. Oh yes, London too, courtesy mad immigration policies and asylum claim abuse...

On learning from 'those who went before us marked with a sign of faith' I just listened to a podcast about the sufferings and triumphs of Saint John Bunyan. Podcast downloaded from John Piper's 'Desiring God' site. Recommended.

Martin, One of the great mysteries to this man is why protestants in extremis are so concentrated on idolatry. Be it bones or statues of saints. We RCC types are made of the same stuff as you. You don’t worship bones, and neither do we.

As far as one can determine, the commandment so dedicated is the result of previous revering a golden calf, image of, one off. After 400 years in Egypt, it is not beyond reason that the Israelites carried some pagan baggage with them. But it was sorted there and then by Moses.

However, as the holder of the right (ius sanguinis) to wear a registered tartan, this communicant anticipates being offered the opportunity of taking up Scottish citizenship. On second thoughts he will decline, the financial consequences could prove overwhelming.

One of the great mysteries to this man is why protestants in extremis are so concentrated on idolatry

The relic becomes a means by which the power of God may be controlled. It transforms into a magic talisman that (because it is tangible) a man may presume to wield. In essence it becomes a direct connection to the transcendent and the power contained therein. Instead of faith in God, you end up with faith in man's ability to control divine power.

Carl. One retains his belief that relics represent a continuum. You really are asking a lot here to attribute magic talisman qualities to them as appreciated by us Romans. However, one does agree that the faithful kissing the things is over the top. Put that down to mild hysteria - a very human experience.

Sorry to change the subject YG, but I've just read that Paul Weston of Liberty GB party has been arrested yesterday afternoon for quoting Churchill over a megaphone in Winchester. So yet again an attack on freedom of speech. http://libertygb.org.uk/v1/index.php/home/root/news-libertygb/6389-winchester-churchill-quotation-gets-liberty-gb-leader-paul-weston-arrested

John in Cheshire, Jesus did promise the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. He didn't say sinful and evil men would be without influence. Get real - this is a fallen world.

Martin, The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church does not "create" saints. It simply applies the standard of gospel holiness to those God permits the Church to know are in heaven with Him. In this. And it isn't because of one particular noble achievement; neither does it mean these people led perfect lives whilst on earth, made no mistakes and committed no sin. It simply means the Church affirms they are in Heaven with God.

As for relics, look to Acts 19:11-12. So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

No doubt in the past and, for some in this day and age, superstition rules but Jack agrees with HG's final sentence:

"By sweeping away too many superstitious cults and tearing down too many bogus traditions, we are in danger of forgetting that supernatural sanctity and miraculous manifestation did not die with the Apostles."

I followed your link, Marie. Judging by the Churchill quotation that he chose, I’d say the whole thing was an electioneering publicity stunt. Your friend Weston looked for something that would enable him to be filmed getting arrested, and he achieved his aim.

"As Scotland seemingly moves towards historic independence, let us not forget the history of the Kirk or the uniqueness of Scottish devotion and their contribution to the Christian spirituality of the United Kingdom...John Knox's didactic and polemical contribution was deep, tender and loving" - (Cranmer)

Some rather disparate connections, perhaps of interest: John Knox was a pupil of John Mair (or Major!)(c. 1467-1550), from Gleghornie near Edinburgh. Mair, himself an admirer of John Duns Scotus, studied at Oxford, Cambridge, and Paris. At the latter university he became Professor of Theology and a renowned logician. Fascinatingly, among those who would have heard Mair lecture at Paris were John Calvin, Ignatius Loyola, George Buchanan, Francisco Vitoria and François Rabelais.

As a conciliarist, Mair held that authority lay with the whole church and not with the Pope, and likewise that political authority lay not with the king but with the people, who could therefore legitimately oust a wayward king (cf the earlier Declaration of Arbroath of 1320 which asserted to the Pope the independence of the Scottish crown from that of England). Conciliarist principles would subsequently inform the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century, and the opposition to absolute monarchies of Europe throughout the seventeenth century. Mair remained a Catholic all his life, but nontheless advocated a national Church for Scotland.

Dr Doug Gay, a Church of Scotland minister and lecturer in practical theology at Glasgow University, has recently published a pro-independence book called "Honey from the Lion: Christianity and the Ethics of Nationalism". Gay writes in chapter 2: "Attending to the three main ecclesial traditions of Western Christianity: Roman Catholicism, the Reformed Churches and the Anabaptist Churches, I want to sketch the outlines of an appreciative ecumenical inquiry into their strengths and charisms for political theology and to suggest how each of them contributes something distinctive to the Christian idea of a society". John Mair himself advocated Anglo-Scottish union, but echoes of his views regarding checks on power are evident in Gay's independence-aspiration for "a society organized around principles of subsidiarity, with decisions taken at appropriate levels, maximizing local power in so far as it is conducive to the Common Good" (p155). Despite Gay's framing of the argument for Scottish self-determination in such civic-governance terms, David T. Koyzis in his Cardus review of the book refuses to undamn the "nationalism" of the book's title (I try to respond):

My daughter had emergency surgery two weeks ago tomorrow. She developed an absess that required a second surgery. So it's been a long two weeks. But she was 1000% better today than she was yesterday. Noticeable improvement to everyone but her. I think we are finally on the downhill side of this.

Back in 1994, I sat down to watch the World Cup with every intent to mock it ruthlessly. Much to my surprise, I found myself enjoying it. I always watch the World Cup now.

Just last year the EPL started broadcasting matches in the US. That's the first time I got to see it. The only problem with the EPL is that it makes the MLS look so second-rate by comparison. The American game isn't really that good.

Oh, and I know you meant soccer instead of football. I just made the mental correction for you.

Uncle BrianI'm not so sure it is just a stunt, you see the Liberty GB party are all about saving Britain and restoring her to her former glory. Their ten point plan to save Britain includes introducing a US Style First Amendment guaranteeing Free Speech.

They are also most concerned about the Islamisation of Britain that is happening. So that particular speech from Churchill fits into what they are trying to convey and warn people of. It would seem that “insulting” has only been dropped from Section 5 of the Public Order Act if you are muslim!

The Inspector of nothing in particular said; 'One retains his belief that relics represent a continuum'.Isn`t that what the pagans did I think they called it 'ancestor worship' ..or something like that ?.Oh well just add it to' the traditions' and write it in....this Catholic thing theology just keeps growing..whatever next?pieces of skin phials of blood bones skulls teeth?.

A' Wake Up Call' from Bob Mitchell as to what is happening in 'the church' as it slides into apostasy.. We will be judged as to whether we are IN or OUT...'Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues'(Revelation 18:4)Time to decide.... http://bob-mitchell.blogspot.co.uk/#axzz2zsffyqxJ

The Bible clearly describes all Christians as saints & points out that our deeds, the deeds of the flesh, do not in any way contribute to our holiness for such is based on Christ sacrifice alone.

As to miracles, they were designed to validate the gospel & those who spread it. We now have the New Testament, it is complete, and there is no need of such validating miracles. We now have the mirror of Scripture to see our nature in.

Miraculous manifestations did die out with the apostles, we have no need of the for we have what they did not have, the complete word of God. Such things as relics are superstitious idolatry, not to be seen in Christian churches.

Len, of course one may query if pope's become senile. Why wouldn't they - they're human aren't they? And pope's make very few infallible statements - only two since the ex-cathedra doctrine was formally defined at Vatican I - and never without full reference to the Magisterium and widespread consultation with the Church.

As an avid 'student' of Catholicism, you must surely know this and the very tightly defined parameters for such decisions. Then again, perhaps you are blinded to this in some way.

As I understand Martin, he takes "flesh" to mean the body. Thus a work of the flesh just means a work. Paul does not mean this, I think. By "flesh", he is referring to deeds done by our sinful nature. This comes through clearly in Romans, I think.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth but the Popes have claimed that position for themselves.There are Popes that have openly claimed to be Christ...which is the ultimate heresy. "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."Catholic National July 1895

In claiming that the pope is the “Vicar of Christ,” the Catholic Church rejects the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ’s priesthood, and grants to the pope roles that Christ Himself declared would belong to the Holy Spirit

Pope Pius X made the blasphemous claim that he was "Jesus Christ hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks."

This lie appeared in a Protestant paper, the "Church Review" in England, in October 3, 1895. It charged Cardinal Sarto, Archbishop of Venice, with having said those words.

Cardinal Sarto was elected Pope in 1903. But as soon as the charge was made in 1895, inquiries were sent from England to Venice and Cardinal Sarto produced the manuscript of his discourse. And this is what he actually said:

"The Pope REPRESENTS Jesus Christ Himself, and therefore is a loving father. The life of the Pope is a holocaust of love for the human family. His word is love; love, his weapon; love, the answer he gives to all who hate him; love, his flag, that is, the Cross, which signed the greatest triumph on Earth and in Heaven."

So the quote is from an English Protestant publication in October 1895, not a Catholic one.

Protestant magazine entitled Evangelical Christendom in January 1 of that year. The actual words of Cardinal Sarto (later Pope Pius X in 1903) says that the Pope represents Jesus Christ, not that he is Jesus Christ, as this misquote (and those who use it) love to say.

The Church of England tradition is to acknowledge recognised holiness of persons ("Saint", after all, means "holy", no more, and no less), in the manner of the early church, by including them in the calendar (or 'canon'). It sees no need for bureaurocracy or process, beyond agreeing that names should be added.Thus Abp Laud, Abp Luwum, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer,inter alia, have been added to the calendar, and the holiness of their lives and example noted and celebrated.

The Church of England tradition is to acknowledge recognised holiness of persons ("Saint", after all, means "holy", no more, and no less), in the manner of the early church, by including them in the calendar (or 'canon'). It sees no need for bureaurocracy or process, beyond agreeing that names should be added.Thus Abp Laud, Abp Luwum, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer,inter alia, have been added to the calendar, and the holiness of their lives and example noted and celebrated.

The question must be does the Pope 'represent' Christ or is the pope 'another' Christ a 'replacement' Christ.?

Let us take a look at this.

The term "vicar" comes from the Latin word vicarius, which means "instead of."Jesus does indeed predict a “vicar” in the sense of a “replacement” for His physical presence here on earth. However, this “vicar of Christ” is not a priest, high priest, bishop, or pope. The only biblical “Vicar of Christ” is the Holy Spirit.

And yet again you get your 'facts' wrong. More distortions. The word 'vicar' means representative or deputy in the absence of a person.

The Latin 'vicarius' is anyone acting "in the person of" or agent for a superior - "at second hand". Vicars exercise authority as agents and not in their own right.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said to Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven ..."?

You do know about the OT significance of this expression? No?! Perhaps you should investigate it.

If a 'spirit' has led you to believe Saint Paul was possessed by a demon what other 'confusions' has this 'spirit' sowed in your mind?

"John Paul II...despite having presided over the Vatican during the global scandal of child sex abuse and the proliferation of priestly paedophilia."

While I agree that HH JPII did not do anything like enough to confront 'this filth' (as his successor called it), your assertion does not really hold water. JPII was enPopeised in October 1978. It's a matter of fact that the tidal wave of abuse that seemed to overwhelm the Church - from Magdalene laundries, through children's homes and the creation of 'orphans' to fill them (and ditto Canada), the abuse in both Industrial schools and public schools in the UK, etc, etc, largely predated his reign. It did not stop entirely but you can see a 'bell curve' that rose strongly from 1958-70 and was already declining rapidly by 1978.

You may disagree with the decision to recognise JPII as a saint - and you are perfectly entitled to do so - but your assertion reproduced above is inaccurate. Some Archbishops Dublin might be a different matter...

'Dodo' (seeing that you have totally reverted from' happy Jack' your latest deception. Your whole existence here on this blog is based on a lie.. not surprising that you have chosen Catholicism as your chosen religion?)

It will become apparent to anyone reading God`s Word that Catholicism is not of God and the choice is to either accept false doctrines or to come out of the Catholic religious system.This is the time to choose to either follow Christ or false religion and if we follow false religion we will be drawn into the last days great deception and there will be no means of escape..

Oh Jack ...you are really stooping low now as 'Dodo' re emerges...you just cannot keep up your deception for long can you?. Dodo wrapped in the flesh of happy Jack?.

The Flesh 'religion' always rages against the Spirit..Jesus was accused of having a demon by the Pharisees..I don`t suppose you can even see what you are doing?.I truly pity you ....so much hate concealed under a religious exterior..

I don't really see the excitement of that article. In Catholic teaching, the Pope is the head of the college of bishops. He is so, precisely by being a bishop. Matthew 18 has long been used to emphasize that. Peter is singled out to be given personally what is later given to all. The papacy is not a fourth apostolic order, but the order that all the other bishops have. Reminding us of Matthew 18 (as if it is a recently discovered text) just reminds us of the various poles of Catholic ecclesiology.

As for the suggestion that it reminds us of the dangers of relying on a single verse of Scripture for anything, no serious thinker is going to do that. There are other Petrine texts, and although they need to be seen in the light of other ecclesial texts, they cannot be ignored.

So while this Protestant ball-trickster uses a lot of hand waving conjuring to give the impression that the Petrine text of <Matthew 16 has disappeared, it's pretty obvious it has not and he's just ended up with a Catholic position.

Just read that article and the key bit for Jack is this: "The difference is that Peter gets the "keys to the kingdom" in 16 while the community in 18 "receives the promise of Christ's abiding presence in their binding and loosing in a way that is not given to Peter.""

This seems an artificial and clumsy distinction. The significance of "the keys" is overlooked. Anyone familiar with the Old Testament and Jewish life would understand what Jesus was saying to Peter here.

And len was challenging 'the old worn out untruth' that the Roman Catholic church was the church that Jesus founded through Peter.For for this he was called 'a liar 'by not so happy Jack who then in his own inimitable style accused len of an ad hominem attack on not so happy Jack?.Jacks past was thrown into the mix because Jack has been known to be hmmm quite devious on more than one occasion.Anyway the truth is Peter himself never claimed to be' the rock' on which the church was built and never claimed sole ownership of 'the keys 'this is purely a Catholic invention.

Notice this is Peter speaking;

1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

There are many more scriptures that speak(solely) of Jesus being 'The Rock'.

Len, now, now no more misrepresentations, please! Don't go all self righteous.

Happy Jack accused you of spreading lies to advance your position. He does not know if you believe the sources you post or not - whether it is ignorance of wilful - but you should exercise greater care.

You misrepresented the meaning of the word "vicar" and then peddled untruths about what past popes have supposedly said about themselves. Jack pointed both errors out and not a word from you.

Jack's belief is that Jesus established His Church and He established an Apostolic order and He gave Peter a special part in this.

Argue with Jesus about His choice of words when you meet Him. Whether you like it or not, Simon was renamed Cephas (Rock in Jesus' tongue) and Jesus gave him the Keys.

About His Grace:

Archbishop Cranmer takes as his inspiration the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby: ‘It’s interesting,’ he observes, ‘that nowadays politicians want to talk about moral issues, and bishops want to talk politics.’ It is the fusion of the two in public life, and the necessity for a wider understanding of their complex symbiosis, which leads His Grace to write on these very sensitive issues.

Cranmer's Law:

"It hath been found by experience that no matter how decent, intelligent or thoughtful the reasoning of a conservative may be, as an argument with a liberal is advanced, the probability of being accused of ‘bigotry’, ‘hatred’ or ‘intolerance’ approaches 1 (100%).”

Follow His Grace on

The cost of His Grace's conviction:

His Grace's bottom line:

Freedom of speech must be tolerated, and everyone living in the United Kingdom must accept that they may be insulted about their own beliefs, or indeed be offended, and that is something which they must simply endure, not least because some suffer fates far worse. Comments on articles are therefore unmoderated, but do not necessarily reflect the views of Cranmer. Comments that are off-topic, gratuitously offensive, libelous, or otherwise irritating, may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on any thread does not constitute their endorsement by Cranmer; it may simply be that he considers them to be intelligent and erudite contributions to religio-political discourse...or not.

The Anglican Communion has no peculiar thought, practice, creed or confession of its own. It has only the Catholic Faith of the ancient Catholic Church, as preserved in the Catholic Creeds and maintained in the Catholic and Apostolic constitution of Christ's Church from the beginning.Dr Geoffrey Fisher, Archbishop of Canterbury, 1945-1961

British Conservatism's greatest:

The epithet of 'great' can be applied only to those who were defining leaders who successfully articulated and embodied the Conservatism of their age. They combined in their personal styles, priorities and policies, as Edmund Burke would say, 'a disposition to preserve' with an 'ability to improve'.

I am in politics because of the conflict between good and evil, and I believe that in the end good will triumph.Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher LG, OM, PC, FRS.(Prime Minister 1979-1990)

We have not overthrown the divine right of kings to fall down for the divine right of experts.Harold Macmillan, 1st Earl of Stockton, OM, PC.(Prime Minister 1957-1963)

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.Sir Winston Churchill, KG, OM, CH, TD, FRS, PC (Can).(Prime Minister 1940-1945, 1951-1955)

I am not struck so much by the diversity of testimony as by the many-sidedness of truth.Stanley Baldwin, 1st Earl Baldwin of Bewdley, KG, PC.(Prime Minister 1923-1924, 1924-1929, 1935-1937)

If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe.Robert Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury, KG, GCVO, PC.(Prime Minister 1885-1886, 1886-1892, 1895-1902)

I am a Conservative to preserve all that is good in our constitution, a Radical to remove all that is bad. I seek to preserve property and to respect order, and I equally decry the appeal to the passions of the many or the prejudices of the few.Benjamin Disraeli KG, PC, FRS, Earl of Beaconsfield.(Prime Minister 1868, 1874-1880)

Public opinion is a compound of folly, weakness, prejudice, wrong feeling, right feeling, obstinacy, and newspaper paragraphs.Sir Robert Peel, Bt.(Prime Minister 1834-1835, 1841-1846)

I consider the right of election as a public trust, granted not for the benefit of the individual, but for the public good.Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool.(Prime Minister 1812-1827)

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.The Rt Hon. William Pitt, the Younger.(Prime Minister 1783-1801, 1804-1806)