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Yea...seems to me, a bunch of fellow nature lovers getting together in some remote natural locations in a kinda-sorta secret way now and then, seems like a neato fun idea, but in reality I don't see any way of avoiding certain effects just because of the numbers of people alone on that kind of environment, whether they do improvements or pick up after themselves or not - don't see how the one can ever compensate for the other, or is much more than a gesture in the biggest picture.

They publicize gatherings WAY in advance Mason. Structure is hidden because of the liability an actually responsible organization would have to assume. I was unfortunate enough to find my beloved San Francisco River canyon near Glenwood, NM covered with toilet paper mines in 1987. A few years ago outside of Pinedale they did clean up...to a point.

The Rainbow Gathering folks are unequivocal hypocrites. You don't trash things you profess to honor.

I understand I'm trying to get my cake and eat it..... I've been in relationships with men of both worlds.... Either the Babylon or the road.... Neither understand the half of me that isn't part of their world. It's hard being a hybrid.... Even my closest friends in Babylon don't get my road life. It's just confusing and lonely.... When I first got off the road after 5 years of being on it without a break, I started dating a guy who I knew since middle school. He wouldn't let me talk about the life I JUST stepped away from, saying "I don't want to hear about you being a bum"... So it just instilled in me to keep talk on that part of my life minimal when dating and simply say "I traveled with hippies...." When I'm back on the road and talk about bills and work and life I always hear "just stop if it doesn't make you happy. Why do you feel the need to conform?" Etc.

Something to watch out for, both in yourself and others in both of the worlds you've named, is a common human conceptual mistake, which I first recognized back when I was slightly younger than you are now, in the old "golden age" of hippies.

Specifically, there is a dynamic that happens which is a combination of good intentions that lead to counter-productive results.

The labels is what I am alerted by. Referring to each "world" as being inhabited by one kind of people, who don't comprehend the other world, was extremely common back in the sixties and seventies. The "hippies" were initially looked upon as oddballs, and as possibly being dangerous to the status quo, and therefore to defend themselves, they often developed a set of description of the non-hippies, which essentially centered around the idea that "they just don't get it." The very name, hippy, came from the notion of being "hip," as in being more in the know about reality than everyone else.

The problems come, when the coping strategy is turned into an aggressive form of what might be called 'reverse ostracization." Calling everyone outside of the Rainbow family "Babalonians," even in jest, will lead to a form of prejudice, and the erection of barriers which are not based on real differences. The same thing happens going the other way, of course.

In short, it is very common for people who have named their "home" group one thing, and the "non-home" groups another, to reinforce the isolation and differences between each other, to the point where each insists that the other is magically and irretrievably different. They actually put work into being MORE different, and LESS able to commune with each other, all the while thinking that they have to do this, in order to protect themselves. Back in the seventies, I watched as people who loudly and eagerly claimed to be all about acceptance and awareness, purposely worked to erect blockades to prevent all interaction or understanding or sympathy of any kind, for anyone who wasn't also pretending to be all about caring and acceptance in exactly the manner that they were doing so. In the name of peace love and understanding, they demanded zero peace, love, or understanding of the people they had labeled as outsiders.

This has nothing to do with the kinds of guys such as the one who refused to allow you to talk to him about the Family experience. Or perhaps those folks can be an illustration of what I'm talking about.

It's very tricky to keep an eye on. Just a suggestion, not an accusation.

My own personal wanna-be "research" has come up with some odd facts and suggestions -

- "Rainbow" seems to have a weird cultish christian core or origination, if you dig deep enough.

- While there is no reliably factual derivation for 420, it is Hitler's birthday.

- Influential or pivotal individuals within intentional community and rainbow social circles have hammer and sickle or swastica tattoos.

- Fundamental evangelical circles and mega churches (the anti-science things that they say are so outrageous that I even get the impression that it must all just be an "act"), and intentional community and rainbow social circles, are effectively quasi closed-societies, and their associations and activities are relatively "invisible" in some respects. It all makes me think of the idea of a group hiding within another group of a different facade or different perception of it all. And, the social power and financial funding that is available through these structures, and the fact that massive groups get together in either remote locations or the mega church activities and networks, is suggestive if one has an overactive imagination.

Sounds like a bit of a quandary there Pirate; wishing you best of luck with this one. It kind of brings me back to when I was in college. I was the student council president and as a group we pushed the boundary a bit with our our frosh week theme - Burnin', Yearnin', Learnin' - the propaganda we put in the frosh kits and the logo resembled that of what you'd see on the cover of a psychedelic music album. How we came up with that and ran with it I'll never understand.

Of course we got major heat from the student newspaper and school administration and overall it caused a real ruckus. We organized all kinds of silly antics to get the attention of students and teachers alike, threw our fists in the air for the sake of non-conformity, held joint silent marches to combat rising tuition fees, etc.

For the sake of discussion, I was rather troubled after all those antics and it took years to rebuild a young woman caught between the frustration of a larger cause that turned out to be much closer to home than I ever imagined.

Yes, I still feel a hint of that ethos now and again but I definitely don't run that wild anymore. Feisty as ever, sure, but a different sort of feisty these days. More like a bull moose stuck between two major highways and less like a political hipster ally.

Last year i visited the findhorn foundation up in the highlands of scotland. This is how they describe themselves.

VisionThe Findhorn Foundation is a spiritual community, ecovillage and an international centre for holistic learning, helping to unfold a new human consciousness and create a positive and sustainable future.http://www.findhorn.org/

Now it was an interesting experience and as us babylonian types get to have a wander about its worth a visit if you are ever in scotland.Houses built from reusable materials, close to the beach, built into the woods and next to an old RAF base (which i found most chucklesome).They dont have courses for learning things of course it is all 'workshops'Now whilst i could see what they tried to achieve it sort of lost its eco kudos with the ammount of 4 wheel drives parked outside the eco houses.Plus at an average of roughly £250/300 thousand for a house its well out the reach of most babylonian types.

The universal hall was quite interesting and some good artists were appearing. Here is a link to their latest round of shows.

http://www.findhorn.org/universal-hall/upcoming-events/#.U0JAeX81hcs

But as for myself peace, love and harmony will just not be seen in my lifetime i think.But hey if someone wants to be a hippy then who are the rest of us babylonian types to complain?But one wee question. Does peace, love and harmony extend to all others whether ordinary normal folk, neo communists, neo nazis, industrialists, religious zealots etc or are the p, l, harmony only extended to certain other groups? If so then the hippies are like everyone else im afraid.

Oh and the tea served at findhorn is appalling better taking a flask. And your knackered if you like a bit fried animal with vegetables.

Ok.... Quick response.... I'll reply with more later (actually just got back this morning from the woods lol... In which I met someone so I trig using and wonderful and I'm excited to see where that goes.)This response is geared towards Double Cabin.... I was just at the San Francisco hot springs in New Mexico last month and we micro trashed (meaning we picked up every speck of litter we had).... Just want to point out that there are those of us who care.

...That stuff just isn't all that it cracks itself up to be. There's a lot more going on with much of this than meets the eye...more and different than how they present themselves.

Just one type of example: Many of the places which get themselves listed in a wwoofing directory (U.S.A.) do that and other things to maintain a status, or the pretention of a status, for certain purposes, like taxes and taking donations, and they'll act and talk one way to you if you're fooled by their front and want to contribute...but when it comes time to get real, they have a whole repertoire, from experience in doing this, of ways to run game on people and get rid of them without it looking like they're in breach of anything.

One of the worst and scariest individuals that I ever met in person in my whole life (literally...not an expression...the worst and scariest, in my whole life) was a wwoof host. Spent months around him 24/7, and decided to turn my visit into a study of him, so to speak. On the one hand, over the years he had gotten himself an image of acclaim and positioned himself within social circles having to do with unique philanthropic social work...but on the other hand, he was sadistic and abusive in a disturbingly "aforethought" manner. Every action of his, and word out of his mouth, was laced with lies in an engineered scheming way, towards the ends of abuse, sadism, and manipulation. The experience of being around him personally and interacting every hour of every day for several months was unforgettable. He is so bad that I explain it this way, while I don't think that anyone would readily understand how I mean that literally every breath that he took exuded these traits. So, what scares me is that he had gotten himself into the social position that he had, and had a lot of influence and interaction with troubled and vulnerable people of various sorts. And I observed how lots of people interacted with his surface personality, and never knew who he was. And the whole phenomena ran so deep and was engineered such that I couldn't explain to anyone and have them understand or believe me.

However, I think that I messed him up. He wasn't ready for me. He'll never forget my time there. None of his games or sadism could work on me. I say that I spent several months there...over half a year actually...almost every other "visitor" spends only around a week. He couldn't get rid of me, and couldn't do anything about it. I did about the only thing that could be done with him...got into his head a certain way, and had some reverse-psychology subliminal influence on some of the people around him and how they viewed everything, such that some of those avenues of his may be cut off. I honestly hope that I scarred him for life, and his "operation", and I think that I did. Hopefully that scary disturbed mother f-cker will never be the same. I see that as one of my good deeds in life.

If you want to slay a dragon, you must be able to stand in the furnace.

Does this say anything about wwoofing, and intentional communities, etc? I found that these are quasi-closed societies, and sub-cultures, of a certain sort such that they are prone to certain social deteriorations and aberrations, magnified compared to the world outside of them.

With all due respect picking up garbage does nothing in terms of soil compaction, root damage, etc. No oil leaks? Antifreeze? Really, none among thousands?

I commend you for cleaning up but again, there is no way for one to truthfully say they love nature and at the same time gather in fragile environments by the thousands. If you really did care you'd have your gatherings on colossal parking lots accessible by public transportation. I'm sorry to condemn these gatherings out of hand but the reality of responsible stewardship is minimizing impact, and that is just physically impossible if you insist on the gratuitous indulgence of mass gathering. You can say you get a great sense of community from these gatherings but to suggest it is also in some kind of harmony with nature is beyond delusion if not outright deceit.

I wish you great success in your search and hope you continue it with a far greater and more informed sense of environmental responsibility than you have thus far.

Trig is also a noun( and verb).... meaning a thin piece of metal, folded over onto itself, that holds a Mason's line steady in the breeze (or over a long length, for sag). In Australia, they call it a tingle. It's up for debate- new masons call it a twig, old school still trig a line.... I will positively scream at a new mason to "tingle that fvcking line"! Which always bring looks of panic and lil lost puppy dog.

Cabin- I kind of chuckled at the "responsible organization" comment.... So few of the younger generations in any group, are about being responsible. It takes seeing things being taken away, losing what you love, to become conservative.... in many cases. While I won't try to sell you on "the family" I would like to point out.. many of the younger generations desperately need role models to look up to. I have seen many a family out on the road in some bus, that were completely stranded by a flat tire. Ever changed or repaired a tire on a heavy truck? It's not at all like a car or LT. These folks who are looking for a way to help, to actually live the way they dream our world should be.... many need help. Many are deluded about "the real world" or the practical things it takes to make it, and their image or actual measurable impact on it.

Fact is... these "hippies" don't have any real orginizational motivation. No one (or group of no ones) speak for them. They have no "leader" or structure... and as close as I can find to this year's gathering... is somewhere in NV or UT. We are 60 days + or - out, right now. But they will not narrow it down until right before the event. Other wise folks will camp out too early, and stay too late. As is, it takes about 2 months for Support to set up and tear down. Those are the ones who give, to help make these folk's trip a safe one, Support. Support shows young'uns how to keep safe water, or dig a latrine, or even help someone put up a tent.... and there are so many that need support. "New york city?! "Even abandoned cars..... would you leave a car? But what do a bunch of kids do with a car that won't drive? Needs 400 dollars in parts?... not a pair of cresent wrenches between em?

My suggestion is: help. Don't condemn an entire group because they are too idealistic and have no training or knowledge to accomplish their goals. Show up with a duece and a half full of shovels and rice and bleach and sss and show the people how to acomplish their goals, while maintaining yours. I respect your words here, but to condemn an entire group without just cause is bigoted and unfounded - even your particular case. I take part, and partake. Please take this from one who shares your view about the harm done. I have also "cultured" a few ideas in my time. Can't beat em, join em.... if nothing else, go park your rig... take your clothes off and have a week in the company of an amazing group of hypocrites. For a week, you will see what some tout as their homeland. Get a sense of the kindness involved. Show just one how to honor the spot, and they will share it with others.... Or show up with a commodity, and they will "pay" you for it.

isn't there a program where a guy guy trades a paper clip up into a piece of property?.... paper clip, pen, folder, binder, notebook, resource book, ect.... be the resource book. Trade up. Sinew shoes are valuable... give it away.

Drinks- the desert is one of the most fragile systems out there. When they burn the man, they catch dripping oil from the rigs and protect the sand from scorch from fires. It's also run by a for profit corp, where as the gathering is a group of non- conformists..... who could benefit from the man's structure. At blackrock, they pay for porta potties with admit tickets... and actually don't even allow grey water to effect the desert. The gatherings are not organized even in the same scale. They should be.

Gatherings have about 30 k at the big one.. they sell out the man at 50 k. There are logistics problems at either event. Too many people for a week. Both are beautiful. Both have purpose. Both have many 100's of people who give their time and energy to make sure it's all good for others. How many doctors set up tents and treat dehydration, sun burn, and minor debriding/ surgery? Lol.... climber's tape and saline. For those particularly bad; bleach, nylon brush... saline, iodine and tape.Hell, half of the people there have some - aine family in their pockets...

Burning man is an art exhibit. National gathering is a drum/trade circle and week without your shorts... cochella is a main stream music fest, Glastonbury a party, Al parque... more heavy music, Roo is too. But all with a theme of community. Like it or not, this community is "ours". Give, condemn, armchair preach or enjoy.... it's too big to stop. Even the nation guard doesn't like to step in... just make myrtrs out of them.

Lady pirate hooker- every one has trouble finding "that" one.... not nessasarily "a" one, but that one - sure.It's also what you make of things....go the length, and it may come back to you. But sometimes es you go the length, and find out you should have gotten off at the other stop... I personally love the ride. The clicking of wheels on steel, the momentum. Tie on and go to sleep. Wake up there... it's always got to be a fvcking train. Heels dancing on gravel...The new place you step off onto.. everyplace I have ever been to, has a copperhead road. When I drip into some parking lot... does my pecker or eye brow care what latitude or red neck did the first askin? Should I? I live here.... this is my home. Who looks away when neither one is wrong?

I live here. My kids are being raised here. Like it or not.Growing older has shown me tolerance, and acceptance. But I will probably die a rail rat, whose road? My road, er... our "road"."Their" road...

Look at the answers here... how many have even seen the parking lot? How many ever heard of guy clark?

Yea, the desert is full of life also. Whether it's able to be done realistically, I just remember that the original purpose of burning man's location - not just a desert but a particular desert location - was because there wasn't much there (relatively) and the impact would be lessened. But yes, I don't know how well that idea is implemented in reality. And I also had the impression that the current degree of commercialization or for-profit (to just pay for the logistics?) wasn't originally a part of it.

And also yes again...things like rainbow and burning man might have a good idea behind them, and can have good elements to the experience, but the love-of-nature thing is contrasted with the negative impact from that act of appreciating or loving, no matter the gestures or steps taken otherwise. But really I can't avoid seeing it as a reminder that we humans can't hardly do anything without some negative, non-harmonious impact. We just need so much as a species, have a huge hunger. We can't even "love" nature sometimes without hurting it - we have national parks and forest reserves, but outdoors enthusiasts will go to those places and do damage to them either without realizing it or from carelessness. We almost can't do anything along these lines except just plain leave certain places alone completely. Appreciate and protect them by staying out of them completely, except for certain maintenance activities, like fire control etc, but no recreation options for the public.

I have come to recognize that the interaction of humans with "nature" is a misleading concept.

We are a PART of nature. After all, when a heard of buffalo make their way through and area, they trample the underbrush and compact the ground down at least as much as a crowd of people would. Fecal matter is fecal matter, no matter which critter it comes from. A few eco-biologists have pointed out that the refusal to allow any fecal matter into a "natural" system is actually a way of starving some part of that systems inhabitants of their natural food source.

So I've recognized that probably half or more of the idea of "preserving nature" really comes down to a desire to have some places be how ever they are when almost no people go there. There's nothing especially more "natural" about such places.

That doesn't mean I approve of the people who want to do as Ronald Reagan suggested, and make all parkland and natural wonders more accessible by putting paved highways through the middle of them, or that I would let profiteers turn anywhere and everywhere into strip mines and factory sites. It just means that I'm not going to pretend that any change that occurs because humans were there, is some how magically "bad" for the environment.

It changes it, to be sure. But the variety of life that exists here, is so in part, because there ARE changes constantly going on. In other words, I draw a perhaps subtle, but very important distinction between "preserving" nature, and living naturally. People who want to live in large groups without factories or parking lots aren't hypocrites, just because they kill the grass by walking on it in droves. They are a part of a continuum, and are choosing a different SET of changes that they will accept as occurring in the world because of their presence.

^ I think though that problems arise because certain of our activities as humans have much more impact than is otherwise "natural". Relatively out of proportion. That's why I mention that we "demand so much as a species", have an unusual "hunger". I think you have a point, but it's about the level of impact, and variety of impact, that humans have versus otherwise. And also, as you talk about one set of changes versus another, I think after a point humans bring a set of changes that might not be preferable. Would you agree?

And also, as you talk about one set of changes versus another, I think after a point humans bring a set of changes that might not be preferable. Would you agree?

That is fairly on point to what I am trying to get at. That's why I mentioned Reagan's (actually happened!) proposal to make our natural wonders preserves more accessible by building paved highways through them.

The main thing is, that it actually OBSCURES the subject matter of living in/with nature, to try to make it all black and white. A lot of people who talk about nature versus humans, talk as though there is a magic difference between what humans do to an environment and what other species do, and that anything we change is bad, while anything that non-humans do (no matter how equally or even more destructive it is) is good.

It certainly is easy to feel righteous by drawing such distinct lines, and proclaiming all human activity to be destructive, but it ignores the fact that humans are naturally human, as well as that nature itself is often violent, and is always callous about what it does TO ITSELF.

It's a matter of being MINDFUL, and of making choices, and of accepting the challenges that each choice result in. Lots of times, in all aspects of our lives, it's not a matter of choosing between everything being perfect, and everything being a mess. It's a matter instead of WHICH change we prefer. That's why I also mentioned that there are biologists who have begun studying how the common human habit of taking nutrients out of their environment by eating things, and then refusing to put any of them back again, by removing our waste materials elsewhere. I'm not saying that it is "better" to live in our own filth, by any means. I'm saying that it isn't always a positive act on behalf of the rest of nature, to keep people from being people.

And what you say brings this back around to a particular view of mine that I like to express whenever this comes up, part of it just another way to say what you've said here -

That it isn't really "humans" in general, by nature, and that, no, there isn't intrinsically a magic difference between us and the rest of nature (as it applies here). I just said "humans" in my post, but just wasn't clarifying yet...I mean certain cultural trends of attitude towards everything, which isn't shared by everyone, but more people than want to be are caught up in many of these behaviors, in addition. I think that what does damage is a certain "culture", a certain meme-set. A meme-set that is ruling many people and group-entities, aspects of economy and other things, and possibly the whole planet more than not. Humans can develop and/or adopt all kinds of attitudes and behaviors, and this is just about that yet again. Not all humans, by far, have the same attitudes or values that have negative versus positive or harmonious impact. So it's not just "humans", but as with possibly everything that we talk about or have issues with in our world, it's about everyone learning and adopting better ways by which our human world operates. As this is true in other ways, there is not just one human species. If there is something a bit more "human", it's that "evolution" began taking place in another way - the evolution of our minds, cultures, values, etc. With us, a species isn't defined only by physiology anymore. There are many human species, or sub-species...and they are defined by fundamental tendencies towards certain values and attitudes. And some humans are bad for the environment, while some aren't.

when I lived in nor cal I drove a 70 vw camper and had ten more other vw's at home ,and my hair was long ,sometimes ,,but I did 100 mile day rides on a bicycle and I never smoked ,,plenty thought I was a hippie ,,,in passing ,,,but what is a hippie ??? don't know ,,I don't like lables ,,,,,