09/02/19 | Huddersfield Town 1-2 Arsenal | Premier League

Santi wrote:insert long post trying to be as central as possible while still having a dig at wenger

400 insta-likes & a from chicken nuggets

I actually can't believe that this r***rd along with Angelito and his band of well known trolls are going around the forum attacking people for supporting AFC.

When I say AFC I mean the club, the manager, the players etc.

By the way Brunel, excellent post, reasonable and common sense thinking is being starved out atm, these sorts of posts should be the norm, not the exception.

PS - Just to note, we don't think Emery is beyond critic, I could list a number of things I'd like him to improve but this Emery Out movement is beyond sense, let the guy have a season at least, AFC are going to give him that, is it really worth a hate campaign when he's not going anywhere yet?

To think a respected Mod is going around in toe with a bunch of trolls who were formerly banned on numerous occasions jumping on AFC fans is beyond ridiculous.

I've seen you and a few others attack AFC fans, Iwobi, Wenger and former players like Henry but through out this 'support' word when it comes to Emery. The hypocrisy.

Angelito wrote:And we all know where the abuse is coming from or the band that's hell bent on name calling and attacking fellow members here—just because they have a different, a more critical outlook on the situation.

Let's not take the moral high ground.

The abuse is coming from both sides.

The point is Arsenal fans and posters are sick of the negativity, we don't want Wenger Out mk II which is why good posters like Nejch are saying they're taking a break and posters like myself and Zedie are saying we can't be asked anymore.At the beginning of the season the Mods made a conscious effort to remove posters who were carrying that on from last season, now look.

I understand if you and some others think he's not the right man for the job but you can't make a conclusion when the season is half baked, if he fks it up we'll all be saying it come end of season but we should be all willing to wait till then before making sweeping comments.

I have my own reservations about certain things but until he's been given a proper chance to shape the squad and get players in then anything else is knee jerk comments at this stage.

I think everybody should just call a truce and wait till positions in both the Prem and EL are definite before we set our stalls otherwise you'll just be banging on about getting rid of a manager who is likely to be here for 2 seasons ............ do we really need this for 2 years?

Santi wrote:insert long post trying to be as central as possible while still having a dig at wenger

400 insta-likes & a from chicken nuggets

Or...it could be my actual opinion on things? Which, again if you want to check my posting history, you will see I have been pretty consistent with.

I just don't subscribe to this overbearing negativity and myopia that yourself, Angelito, Swipe Right and a few others have.

You say that but seem to be blind to the overbearing negativity surrounding Iwobi and AMN. It's a bit of a double standard.

I haven't and it isn't. I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Yes there has been a lot of criticism for Iwobi and AMN. I haven't said I want either of them to leave permanently, I think the former is a good squad player but is not good enough to start for us. He is going to be 23 and this is his 4th season playing with the first XI. He's still young enough to improve, so I haven't written him off. But we can't put our plans on hold in the hope he may become good. So we do need an upgrade out wide. As I said on the AMN thread already, he needs to be given game time in the position he prefers because he is constantly being tinkered with which hasn't helped his development. But I do think he needs a loan move before we decide what to do next.

In any case, this is Emery's first season with a squad that, by and large, isn't particularly good. And he's had one transfer window where we spent £70m which is peanuts in this day and age.

So he is bound to get a bit more leeway than the other players, who have been at the club for longer and haven't showed significant enough improvement.

The fact that Emery keeps choosing Iwobi and AMN over other squad players, playing the out of position, does that not say something about his judgement in players? If it's OK to critique the players, why not the manager that picks them to play? What if they're key players for Emery and feature after he has been given money to improve those positions? We'll soon find out but I'm judging Emery in the same way I judged Wenger. If certain players keep getting picked but they're not good enough, that's on the manager. He has internal options even with the current squad.

Saying that, if we're talking about getting behind the manager and supporting him then shouldn't we extend that same curtesy to the decisions he makes with the team selection?

Power n Glory wrote:I've seen you and a few others attack AFC fans, Iwobi, Wenger and former players like Henry but through out this 'support' word when it comes to Emery. The hypocrisy.

Wenger overstayed his welcome and got us 6th, crap players and was cover for a corrupt board, I've backed Iwobi to a point but the guy is not top 4 standard, Iwobi is not in his first year for starters, I love Henry as my avatars should tell but I always knew he wouldn't be a good manager, its down to character, it doesn't make me happy that I was right, Henry to me is the best AFC player ever.

Power n Glory wrote:Anyway, as said before, if a driver has bad driving habits, a new car won't solve the problem. If I hand over my car keys to someone I've never seen drive before, I'm going to be watching them closely and a little on edge until they have proven they're safe and I get the destination safely. Same principle for football. No I idea why you're turning the blinders off and critical thought has gone out of the window for the manager of all people.

What if the driver doesn't have bad driving habits, but has been given a faulty car and hasn't been given sufficient money to fix its main problems? There's only so much a driver can do until it breaks down again. To me, that is more of the case we have here than the analogy you have provided.

How can anyone put the blame on Wenger if that's your argument? It's flawed thinking. Aren't we doomed in that case? If we're saying the manager is perfectly fine but it's the Board that won't provide the money to build a better squad, what hope is there?

A faulty car doesn't finish the race or get off the starting line. Also, even with a faulty car, you should be able to demonstrate the basics. We haven't seen this team defend as unit, press, we haven't tactically out foxed our opponents, I also suspect the training is contributing to our injury list... there is a lot we can look at to judge the manager on before just jumping to the transfer window conclusion. That's the same flawed thinking that kept Wenger out of the spotlight for so long. In fact, by that logic, it could be argued to this day that Wenger wasn't given enough funds to compete. But you could argue that point for any chequebook manager.

Why is Wenger exempt from blame in this current situation? It is not all his fault of course, only a complete moron would argue that. But you cannot deny it is his poor signings, his tactics, his coaching methods and staff, and his decision to give long-term contracts to the likes of Elneny, Jenkinson and Ozil that has contributed to our demise.

He spent big money and pissed most of it up the wall. Emery hasn't had the opportunity to spend big.

Attempting to overturn that complete shambles is not a straightforward process.

I agree defensively we've looked very bad, and Emery has to take responsibly for that especially with his tactical set-up. But like I said, we've had injuries to 3 of our main defenders, 2 of them have had season ending injuries. Relying on a rash Mustafi and 33-year old Koscielny to be your CB pairing isn't exactly inspiring stuff. I do wish he would use Mavrapanos more, though. I don't agree that we've not tactically outsmarted our opponents. When Emery's had a fit squad to choose from, we've put in some good displays.

To be honest, for me results > style of play. We need to focus on getting CL football. I'd rather we shithouse our way to getting CL football either through finishing 4th or winning the Europa than playing with an 'identity' and finishing 5th/6th. The season after we can focus on trying to play attractive football. It's not like our football was aesthetically pleasing in Wenger's latter years anyway.

And yes, we may well be doomed if we don't have money to reinvest on better players. If we want to improve, we need to spend money. 97% of the time, the most successful teams are the ones who are amongst the richest in the game. It is no secret that this is how modern football is for the most part. Sure, Atletico Madrid defied the odds in 2014 and Leicester did in 2016, but over a period of the last 15 years, the likes of Bayern, Barca/Madrid, PSG, United, Chelsea and City have won the lion's share of silverware.

Last edited by BrunelGooner on Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Santi wrote:insert long post trying to be as central as possible while still having a dig at wenger

400 insta-likes & a from chicken nuggets

Or...it could be my actual opinion on things? Which, again if you want to check my posting history, you will see I have been pretty consistent with.

I just don't subscribe to this overbearing negativity and myopia that yourself, Angelito, Swipe Right and a few others have.

You say that but seem to be blind to the overbearing negativity surrounding Iwobi and AMN. It's a bit of a double standard.

I haven't and it isn't. I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Yes there has been a lot of criticism for Iwobi and AMN. I haven't said I want either of them to leave permanently, I think the former is a good squad player but is not good enough to start for us. He is going to be 23 and this is his 4th season playing with the first XI. He's still young enough to improve, so I haven't written him off. But we can't put our plans on hold in the hope he may become good. So we do need an upgrade out wide. As I said on the AMN thread already, he needs to be given game time in the position he prefers because he is constantly being tinkered with which hasn't helped his development. But I do think he needs a loan move before we decide what to do next.

In any case, this is Emery's first season with a squad that, by and large, isn't particularly good. And he's had one transfer window where we spent £70m which is peanuts in this day and age.

So he is bound to get a bit more leeway than the other players, who have been at the club for longer and haven't showed significant enough improvement.

The fact that Emery keeps choosing Iwobi and AMN over other squad players, playing the out of position, does that not say something about his judgement in players? If it's OK to critique the players, why not the manager that picks them to play? What if they're key players for Emery and feature after he has been given money to improve those positions? We'll soon find out but I'm judging Emery in the same way I judged Wenger. If certain players keep getting picked but they're not good enough, that's on the manager. He has internal options even with the current squad.

Saying that, if we're talking about getting behind the manager and supporting him then shouldn't we extend that same curtesy to the decisions he makes with the team selection?

It seems like you're arguing with yourself here.

Where have I said you can't critique Emery? Where have I said his judgment is perfect and he can't be criticised? Where have I said he shouldn't be questioned for his team selections? It's a total non-sequitur.

As for the rest of your post, I do think he has made the wrong call on several occasions. But you're acting like he has a wealth of options to choose from when he doesn't. This is one of the worst injury crises we've had for a long time. And i don't think it is to do with his training methods because Torreira, Guendouzi, Lacazette, Aubameyang, Iwobi and Xhaka have not suffered any big injuries this season. Surely if it was down to training methods, they would be feeling the effects of it.

I've said countless times that I wish he would utilise our youth options more e.g. Saka, Willock. However, I also think he doesn't want to throw them into the deep end and ruin their confidence at a young age if things don't go to plan. But this is a league he is new to and I personally think he underestimated the value of athleticism and speed needed in this league. It's his first season though, it is all a learning experience. Which is why I'm not going overboard with my criticism of him.

Santi wrote:insert long post trying to be as central as possible while still having a dig at wenger

400 insta-likes & a from chicken nuggets

Or...it could be my actual opinion on things? Which, again if you want to check my posting history, you will see I have been pretty consistent with.

I just don't subscribe to this overbearing negativity and myopia that yourself, Angelito, Swipe Right and a few others have.

You say that but seem to be blind to the overbearing negativity surrounding Iwobi and AMN. It's a bit of a double standard. Personally, I think developing players need support and especially if they are home grown, but nobody is exempt from scrutiny and criticism. I don't see why people are looking so far beyond Emery and his coaching especially when considering the amount of scrutiny Wenger was under in his final years. Fron his training methods, staff around him to involvement with transfers. That level of scrutiny should be extended to Emery. It doesn't matter how long he's been here, he shouldn't just have a free pass because that sort of leniency is never extended to the players.

Hes hardly being given a free slate is he? Hes working with a mostly unchanged squad that already had gaping issues in the 11.

We have players like iwobi, mustafi, Monreal, lichtensteiner, xhaka to name a few as regulars in our first team that wouldn't make the other 5s first team.

I'm really not sure what you expect Emery to do in his first season without large scale investment and time or should we adopt the manager roulette approach until someone magically makes those players to play beyond their evident limitations?

I can't be arsed to argue this anymore, it's probably easier to just let people ignore the blindingly obvious and stick pins into a guy that's just starting on the road with us.

You lot would have had klopp out in his first season if he was with us.

Never has a truer word been spoken

We are a point behind 4th, a Man utd side thats been beating all comers and apparently we have been shit yet only a point behind?

This is an improvement from the horror of the Wenger years but unless the trolls expected a title challenge this season, not sure what else they could expect than what we have got.

Nevertheless trolling is what makes the forum world go round and whilst most is tedious from the emery haters, none of which have given a proper reason, we do get a few gems here or there so i can never be not arsed to argue with one in hope we get a gem or 2

Power n Glory wrote:Anyway, as said before, if a driver has bad driving habits, a new car won't solve the problem. If I hand over my car keys to someone I've never seen drive before, I'm going to be watching them closely and a little on edge until they have proven they're safe and I get the destination safely. Same principle for football. No I idea why you're turning the blinders off and critical thought has gone out of the window for the manager of all people.

What if the driver doesn't have bad driving habits, but has been given a faulty car and hasn't been given sufficient money to fix its main problems? There's only so much a driver can do until it breaks down again. To me, that is more of the case we have here than the analogy you have provided.

How can anyone put the blame on Wenger if that's your argument? It's flawed thinking. Aren't we doomed in that case? If we're saying the manager is perfectly fine but it's the Board that won't provide the money to build a better squad, what hope is there?

A faulty car doesn't finish the race or get off the starting line. Also, even with a faulty car, you should be able to demonstrate the basics. We haven't seen this team defend as unit, press, we haven't tactically out foxed our opponents, I also suspect the training is contributing to our injury list... there is a lot we can look at to judge the manager on before just jumping to the transfer window conclusion. That's the same flawed thinking that kept Wenger out of the spotlight for so long. In fact, by that logic, it could be argued to this day that Wenger wasn't given enough funds to compete. But you could argue that point for any chequebook manager.

Why is Wenger exempt from blame in this current situation? It is not all his fault of course, only a complete moron would argue that. But you cannot deny it is his poor signings, his tactics, his coaching methods and staff, and his decision to give long-term contracts to the likes of Elneny, Jenkinson and Ozil that has contributed to our demise.

He spent big money and pissed most of it up the wall. Emery hasn't had the opportunity to spend big.

Attempting to overturn that complete shambles is not a straightforward process.

I agree defensively we've looked very bad, and Emery has to take responsibly for that especially with his tactical set-up. But like I said, we've had injuries to 3 of our main defenders, 2 of them have had season ending injuries. Relying on a rash Mustafi and 33-year old Koscielny to be your CB pairing isn't exactly inspiring stuff. I do wish he would use Mavrapanos more, though. I don't agree that we've not tactically outsmarted our opponents. When Emery's had a fit squad to choose from, we've put in some good displays.

To be honest, for me results > style of play. We need to focus on getting CL football. I'd rather we shithouse our way to getting CL football either through finishing 4th or winning the Europa than playing with an 'identity' and finishing 5th/6th. The season after we can focus on trying to play attractive football. It's not like our football was aesthetically pleasing in Wenger's latter years anyway.

And yes, we may well be doomed if we don't have money to reinvest on better players. If we want to improve, we need to spend money. 97% of the time, the most successful teams are the ones who are amongst the richest in the game. It is no secret that this is how modern football is for the most part. Sure, Atletico Madrid defied the odds in 2014 and Leicester did in 2016, but over a period of the last 15 years, the likes of Bayern, Barca/Madrid, PSG, United, Chelsea and City have won the lion's share of silverware.

If we can hold Wenger accountable for all those things listed, why is it different for Emery? Coaching, tactics, training.... even signings. He joined us early in the summer, had a good look at the squad and decided who he had plans for and who could leave permanently or on loan. It won't be a straight forward process to overturn Wenger's work but it's as if nobody has stopped to ask whether the man in charge of doing that is capable.

The fact that we're saying we need to spend as much as our rivals already just so we can form a cohesive defence is a worry to me. We know that's not going to happen under Stan and the point of a new manager was that we needed somebody that could organise the current squad to perform better than what they did under Wenger and build from there. We had players with passing percentages on the low 70s and 60s against Huddersfield and we know we're more capable than that. Same goes for defending. We were terrible under Wenger but we were capable of pulling off the odd good defensive performance.

If it's results over style, we're see where we end up at the end of the season. But the lack of style and some of the tactical blunders shouldn't be thrown to the side. We still need to pay attention.

Santi wrote:insert long post trying to be as central as possible while still having a dig at wenger

400 insta-likes & a from chicken nuggets

Or...it could be my actual opinion on things? Which, again if you want to check my posting history, you will see I have been pretty consistent with.

I just don't subscribe to this overbearing negativity and myopia that yourself, Angelito, Swipe Right and a few others have.

You say that but seem to be blind to the overbearing negativity surrounding Iwobi and AMN. It's a bit of a double standard.

I haven't and it isn't. I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Yes there has been a lot of criticism for Iwobi and AMN. I haven't said I want either of them to leave permanently, I think the former is a good squad player but is not good enough to start for us. He is going to be 23 and this is his 4th season playing with the first XI. He's still young enough to improve, so I haven't written him off. But we can't put our plans on hold in the hope he may become good. So we do need an upgrade out wide. As I said on the AMN thread already, he needs to be given game time in the position he prefers because he is constantly being tinkered with which hasn't helped his development. But I do think he needs a loan move before we decide what to do next.

In any case, this is Emery's first season with a squad that, by and large, isn't particularly good. And he's had one transfer window where we spent £70m which is peanuts in this day and age.

So he is bound to get a bit more leeway than the other players, who have been at the club for longer and haven't showed significant enough improvement.

The fact that Emery keeps choosing Iwobi and AMN over other squad players, playing the out of position, does that not say something about his judgement in players? If it's OK to critique the players, why not the manager that picks them to play? What if they're key players for Emery and feature after he has been given money to improve those positions? We'll soon find out but I'm judging Emery in the same way I judged Wenger. If certain players keep getting picked but they're not good enough, that's on the manager. He has internal options even with the current squad.

Saying that, if we're talking about getting behind the manager and supporting him then shouldn't we extend that same curtesy to the decisions he makes with the team selection?

It seems like you're arguing with yourself here.

Where have I said you can't critique Emery? Where have I said his judgment is perfect and he can't be criticised? Where have I said he shouldn't be questioned for his team selections? It's a total non-sequitur.

As for the rest of your post, I do think he has made the wrong call on several occasions. But you're acting like he has a wealth of options to choose from when he doesn't. This is one of the worst injury crises we've had for a long time. And i don't think it is to do with his training methods because Torreira, Guendouzi, Lacazette, Aubameyang, Iwobi and Xhaka have not suffered any big injuries this season. Surely if it was down to training methods, they would be feeling the effects of it.

I've said countless times that I wish he would utilise our youth options more e.g. Saka, Willock. However, I also think he doesn't want to throw them into the deep end and ruin their confidence at a young age if things don't go to plan. But this is a league he is new to and I personally think he underestimated the value of athleticism and speed needed in this league. It's his first season though, it is all a learning experience. Which is why I'm not going overboard with my criticism of him.

You're right. That isn't directed just towards you but to some of the onlookers that are on the more extreme end of the spectrum. You've seen the comments on Iwobi and AMN. They need to improve but also need the backing from fans. If Emery plans to bring through young players and we're supportive of that plan we'll also need to be supportive of the young players.

You haven't said not to critique Emery but at the same time you're saying you're embarrassed by the criticism and that posters lack perspective. I disagree with that. The results haven't been bad but people are looking closely at the performances and judging on that. Team selection, tactics and looking back at how Emery was sold to fans. Attacking football. An obsessive tactician. Pressing football. Someone will research the opposition. Someone that did his homework on the quality of the current Arsenal squad and knew what each of them had to improve on. So far I've been disappointed and I guess that's the same for some other posters.

Power n Glory wrote:Anyway, as said before, if a driver has bad driving habits, a new car won't solve the problem. If I hand over my car keys to someone I've never seen drive before, I'm going to be watching them closely and a little on edge until they have proven they're safe and I get the destination safely. Same principle for football. No I idea why you're turning the blinders off and critical thought has gone out of the window for the manager of all people.

What if the driver doesn't have bad driving habits, but has been given a faulty car and hasn't been given sufficient money to fix its main problems? There's only so much a driver can do until it breaks down again. To me, that is more of the case we have here than the analogy you have provided.

How can anyone put the blame on Wenger if that's your argument? It's flawed thinking. Aren't we doomed in that case? If we're saying the manager is perfectly fine but it's the Board that won't provide the money to build a better squad, what hope is there?

A faulty car doesn't finish the race or get off the starting line. Also, even with a faulty car, you should be able to demonstrate the basics. We haven't seen this team defend as unit, press, we haven't tactically out foxed our opponents, I also suspect the training is contributing to our injury list... there is a lot we can look at to judge the manager on before just jumping to the transfer window conclusion. That's the same flawed thinking that kept Wenger out of the spotlight for so long. In fact, by that logic, it could be argued to this day that Wenger wasn't given enough funds to compete. But you could argue that point for any chequebook manager.

Why is Wenger exempt from blame in this current situation? It is not all his fault of course, only a complete moron would argue that. But you cannot deny it is his poor signings, his tactics, his coaching methods and staff, and his decision to give long-term contracts to the likes of Elneny, Jenkinson and Ozil that has contributed to our demise.

He spent big money and pissed most of it up the wall. Emery hasn't had the opportunity to spend big.

Attempting to overturn that complete shambles is not a straightforward process.

I agree defensively we've looked very bad, and Emery has to take responsibly for that especially with his tactical set-up. But like I said, we've had injuries to 3 of our main defenders, 2 of them have had season ending injuries. Relying on a rash Mustafi and 33-year old Koscielny to be your CB pairing isn't exactly inspiring stuff. I do wish he would use Mavrapanos more, though. I don't agree that we've not tactically outsmarted our opponents. When Emery's had a fit squad to choose from, we've put in some good displays.

To be honest, for me results > style of play. We need to focus on getting CL football. I'd rather we shithouse our way to getting CL football either through finishing 4th or winning the Europa than playing with an 'identity' and finishing 5th/6th. The season after we can focus on trying to play attractive football. It's not like our football was aesthetically pleasing in Wenger's latter years anyway.

And yes, we may well be doomed if we don't have money to reinvest on better players. If we want to improve, we need to spend money. 97% of the time, the most successful teams are the ones who are amongst the richest in the game. It is no secret that this is how modern football is for the most part. Sure, Atletico Madrid defied the odds in 2014 and Leicester did in 2016, but over a period of the last 15 years, the likes of Bayern, Barca/Madrid, PSG, United, Chelsea and City have won the lion's share of silverware.

If we can hold Wenger accountable for all those things listed, why is it different for Emery? Coaching, tactics, training.... even signings. He joined us early in the summer, had a good look at the squad and decided who he had plans for and who could leave permanently or on loan. It won't be a straight forward process to overturn Wenger's work but it's as if nobody has stopped to ask whether the man in charge of doing that is capable.

The fact that we're saying we need to spend as much as our rivals already just so we can form a cohesive defence is a worry to me. We know that's not going to happen under Stan and the point of a new manager was that we needed somebody that could organise the current squad to perform better than what they did under Wenger and build from there. We had players with passing percentages on the low 70s and 60s against Huddersfield and we know we're more capable than that. Same goes for defending. We were terrible under Wenger but we were capable of pulling off the odd good defensive performance.

If it's results over style, we're see where we end up at the end of the season. But the lack of style and some of the tactical blunders shouldn't be thrown to the side. We still need to pay attention.

It isn't different for Emery, but there is a huge difference between taking over from someone who was at the helm for 22 years and oversaw absolutely everything to now adopting a continental structure with a new head coach who has been at the club for less than a year. So although he should be castigated when he makes f**k ups, we can't be reactive in our critique of him.

People who never wanted him to begin with seem to be the ones who are determined in highlighting all the negative things and don't want to acknowledge any of the positives. Or if they do, they put in caveats.

Emery is new to this league and has to had to learn things on the job. He's made errors of judgement along the way, but that was always going to be the case. As I've said, he has underestimated the importance of raw athleticism and pace needed in this division which every other top side (apart from us) have in abundance.

I don't know how much of the Summer transfers were down to Emery or Mislintat. Baring in mind our chief scout was supposed to identify the player, Sanllehi's job was to acquire the player and Emery was supposed to get the best out of them. Emery's role was meant to be diluted. Obviously that seemed to change as the Winter transfer window opened, but it didn't seem to be the case for Summer.

The good thing is if he makes these same mistakes next season, it won't take 6 years to get rid of him like it took us to get rid of Wenger.

Honestly, I don't know what people were expecting from this first season. It was always going to be transitional.

We may not spend as much as our rivals, but we are still 8th in Europe for the money league according to Delotitte and we have the 9th highest wage bill in Europe. If we can distribute that money better, and try to adopt Liverpool's approach if possible (though I do think it will be difficult), then we should be able to compete again. Winning league titles will be difficult, but the first step is to build a competitive side again. Something we haven't seen for years now. We need to invest in our defence though. Our defensive options right now are terrible. And our defensive flaws have quite clearly been exacerbated due to losing Bellerin, Holding and Sokratis. I am confident our defence would be better if they weren't injured. Not saying it would be perfect, but still.

Santi wrote:insert long post trying to be as central as possible while still having a dig at wenger

400 insta-likes & a from chicken nuggets

Or...it could be my actual opinion on things? Which, again if you want to check my posting history, you will see I have been pretty consistent with.

I just don't subscribe to this overbearing negativity and myopia that yourself, Angelito, Swipe Right and a few others have.

You say that but seem to be blind to the overbearing negativity surrounding Iwobi and AMN. It's a bit of a double standard.

I haven't and it isn't. I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Yes there has been a lot of criticism for Iwobi and AMN. I haven't said I want either of them to leave permanently, I think the former is a good squad player but is not good enough to start for us. He is going to be 23 and this is his 4th season playing with the first XI. He's still young enough to improve, so I haven't written him off. But we can't put our plans on hold in the hope he may become good. So we do need an upgrade out wide. As I said on the AMN thread already, he needs to be given game time in the position he prefers because he is constantly being tinkered with which hasn't helped his development. But I do think he needs a loan move before we decide what to do next.

In any case, this is Emery's first season with a squad that, by and large, isn't particularly good. And he's had one transfer window where we spent £70m which is peanuts in this day and age.

So he is bound to get a bit more leeway than the other players, who have been at the club for longer and haven't showed significant enough improvement.

The fact that Emery keeps choosing Iwobi and AMN over other squad players, playing the out of position, does that not say something about his judgement in players? If it's OK to critique the players, why not the manager that picks them to play? What if they're key players for Emery and feature after he has been given money to improve those positions? We'll soon find out but I'm judging Emery in the same way I judged Wenger. If certain players keep getting picked but they're not good enough, that's on the manager. He has internal options even with the current squad.

Saying that, if we're talking about getting behind the manager and supporting him then shouldn't we extend that same curtesy to the decisions he makes with the team selection?

It seems like you're arguing with yourself here.

Where have I said you can't critique Emery? Where have I said his judgment is perfect and he can't be criticised? Where have I said he shouldn't be questioned for his team selections? It's a total non-sequitur.

As for the rest of your post, I do think he has made the wrong call on several occasions. But you're acting like he has a wealth of options to choose from when he doesn't. This is one of the worst injury crises we've had for a long time. And i don't think it is to do with his training methods because Torreira, Guendouzi, Lacazette, Aubameyang, Iwobi and Xhaka have not suffered any big injuries this season. Surely if it was down to training methods, they would be feeling the effects of it.

I've said countless times that I wish he would utilise our youth options more e.g. Saka, Willock. However, I also think he doesn't want to throw them into the deep end and ruin their confidence at a young age if things don't go to plan. But this is a league he is new to and I personally think he underestimated the value of athleticism and speed needed in this league. It's his first season though, it is all a learning experience. Which is why I'm not going overboard with my criticism of him.

You're right. That isn't directed just towards you but to some of the onlookers that are on the more extreme end of the spectrum. You've seen the comments on Iwobi and AMN. They need to improve but also need the backing from fans. If Emery plans to bring through young players and we're supportive of that plan we'll also need to be supportive of the young players.

You haven't said not to critique Emery but at the same time you're saying you're embarrassed by the criticism and that posters lack perspective. I disagree with that. The results haven't been bad but people are looking closely at the performances and judging on that. Team selection, tactics and looking back at how Emery was sold to fans. Attacking football. An obsessive tactician. Pressing football. Someone will research the opposition. Someone that did his homework on the quality of the current Arsenal squad and knew what each of them had to improve on. So far I've been disappointed and I guess that's the same for some other posters.

When you articulate your opinion like this, then I have no problem with that. You don't have to agree with me for me to understand your point of view. I get that people aren't completely sold on him yet. To be honest, I'm not sure if I'm 100% sold on him either.

It's not the criticism I have problem with, it's the over-the-top, knee-jerk reactions to this season.

Look back through this thread and you will see how embarrassing some of these comments are. I will stop mentioning names. But I stand by what I've said. People are acting like the club is about to go into liquidation and there is no hope for us to ever achieve anything again. It's knee-jerk, hyperbolic nonsense.

I get that people aren't completely sold on him yet. To be honest, I'm not sure if I'm 100% sold on him either.

I must admit to being turned off this subject recently due to the OTT comments on our new manager. I agree completely with BG and DG/others who have voiced concerns, but also support for the new man.

Quite simply, he has to be given enough time to properly evaluate him. The injuries to the defence have caused the influx of players that would not normally be playing and we have suffered as a result. Personally I am amazed that Iwobi has had so much game time, shocked that Rambo is leaving and disappointed with the Ozil situation, but we have to wait and see how this pans out and a 2 year period will allow that.

Power n Glory wrote:Anyway, as said before, if a driver has bad driving habits, a new car won't solve the problem. If I hand over my car keys to someone I've never seen drive before, I'm going to be watching them closely and a little on edge until they have proven they're safe and I get the destination safely. Same principle for football. No I idea why you're turning the blinders off and critical thought has gone out of the window for the manager of all people.

What if the driver doesn't have bad driving habits, but has been given a faulty car and hasn't been given sufficient money to fix its main problems? There's only so much a driver can do until it breaks down again. To me, that is more of the case we have here than the analogy you have provided.

How can anyone put the blame on Wenger if that's your argument? It's flawed thinking. Aren't we doomed in that case? If we're saying the manager is perfectly fine but it's the Board that won't provide the money to build a better squad, what hope is there?

A faulty car doesn't finish the race or get off the starting line. Also, even with a faulty car, you should be able to demonstrate the basics. We haven't seen this team defend as unit, press, we haven't tactically out foxed our opponents, I also suspect the training is contributing to our injury list... there is a lot we can look at to judge the manager on before just jumping to the transfer window conclusion. That's the same flawed thinking that kept Wenger out of the spotlight for so long. In fact, by that logic, it could be argued to this day that Wenger wasn't given enough funds to compete. But you could argue that point for any chequebook manager.

Why is Wenger exempt from blame in this current situation? It is not all his fault of course, only a complete moron would argue that. But you cannot deny it is his poor signings, his tactics, his coaching methods and staff, and his decision to give long-term contracts to the likes of Elneny, Jenkinson and Ozil that has contributed to our demise.

He spent big money and pissed most of it up the wall. Emery hasn't had the opportunity to spend big.

Attempting to overturn that complete shambles is not a straightforward process.

I agree defensively we've looked very bad, and Emery has to take responsibly for that especially with his tactical set-up. But like I said, we've had injuries to 3 of our main defenders, 2 of them have had season ending injuries. Relying on a rash Mustafi and 33-year old Koscielny to be your CB pairing isn't exactly inspiring stuff. I do wish he would use Mavrapanos more, though. I don't agree that we've not tactically outsmarted our opponents. When Emery's had a fit squad to choose from, we've put in some good displays.

To be honest, for me results > style of play. We need to focus on getting CL football. I'd rather we shithouse our way to getting CL football either through finishing 4th or winning the Europa than playing with an 'identity' and finishing 5th/6th. The season after we can focus on trying to play attractive football. It's not like our football was aesthetically pleasing in Wenger's latter years anyway.

And yes, we may well be doomed if we don't have money to reinvest on better players. If we want to improve, we need to spend money. 97% of the time, the most successful teams are the ones who are amongst the richest in the game. It is no secret that this is how modern football is for the most part. Sure, Atletico Madrid defied the odds in 2014 and Leicester did in 2016, but over a period of the last 15 years, the likes of Bayern, Barca/Madrid, PSG, United, Chelsea and City have won the lion's share of silverware.

If we can hold Wenger accountable for all those things listed, why is it different for Emery? Coaching, tactics, training.... even signings. He joined us early in the summer, had a good look at the squad and decided who he had plans for and who could leave permanently or on loan. It won't be a straight forward process to overturn Wenger's work but it's as if nobody has stopped to ask whether the man in charge of doing that is capable.

The fact that we're saying we need to spend as much as our rivals already just so we can form a cohesive defence is a worry to me. We know that's not going to happen under Stan and the point of a new manager was that we needed somebody that could organise the current squad to perform better than what they did under Wenger and build from there. We had players with passing percentages on the low 70s and 60s against Huddersfield and we know we're more capable than that. Same goes for defending. We were terrible under Wenger but we were capable of pulling off the odd good defensive performance.

If it's results over style, we're see where we end up at the end of the season. But the lack of style and some of the tactical blunders shouldn't be thrown to the side. We still need to pay attention.

It isn't different for Emery, but there is a huge difference between taking over from someone who was at the helm for 22 years and oversaw absolutely everything to now adopting a continental structure with a new head coach who has been at the club for less than a year. So although he should be castigated when he makes f**k ups, we can't be reactive in our critique of him.

People who never wanted him to begin with seem to be the ones who are determined in highlighting all the negative things and don't want to acknowledge any of the positives. Or if they do, they put in caveats.

Emery is new to this league and has to had to learn things on the job. He's made errors of judgement along the way, but that was always going to be the case. As I've said, he has underestimated the importance of raw athleticism and pace needed in this division which every other top side (apart from us) have in abundance.

I don't know how much of the Summer transfers were down to Emery or Mislintat. Baring in mind our chief scout was supposed to identify the player, Sanllehi's job was to acquire the player and Emery was supposed to get the best out of them. Emery's role was meant to be diluted. Obviously that seemed to change as the Winter transfer window opened, but it didn't seem to be the case for Summer.

The good thing is if he makes these same mistakes next season, it won't take 6 years to get rid of him like it took us to get rid of Wenger.

Honestly, I don't know what people were expecting from this first season. It was always going to be transitional.

We may not spend as much as our rivals, but we are still 8th in Europe for the money league according to Delotitte and we have the 9th highest wage bill in Europe. If we can distribute that money better, and try to adopt Liverpool's approach if possible (though I do think it will be difficult), then we should be able to compete again. Winning league titles will be difficult, but the first step is to build a competitive side again. Something we haven't seen for years now. We need to invest in our defence though. Our defensive options right now are terrible. And our defensive flaws have quite clearly been exacerbated due to losing Bellerin, Holding and Sokratis. I am confident our defence would be better if they weren't injured. Not saying it would be perfect, but still.

I haven't been on this forum for long so I'm not sure where people stood on Wenger or the reaction to Emery or the managers we were linked with in the summer.

For me, I wanted a reputable manager that could command respect because his record would speak for itself, a tactician that's able to box smart against some of the heavy hitters, but also someone that can work within our budget. We have an owner that won't invest his own cash and we don't have the sort of revenue where we can afford expensive mistakes and expect to bounce back quickly. We've seen it with Spurs and Liverpool where they've appointed the wrong manager and allowed them to blow millions on players. It's taken them years to recover because they've finally appointed the right managers.

I thought Emery was a good choice when I heard his name pop up at first. I preferred him over someone like Luis Enrique because he had a more varied experience with Valencia and Sevilla. Enrique had a glowing CV with Barca but for me, he's not going to be working with that sort of budget and talent here. Emery seemed like a better fit. But Emery's record against the top clubs and managers was a major concern for me along with the news that he didn't win a single away game in his final year with Sevilla. It set the alarm bells off.

But even with the reservations, when the club announced him along with how he impressed them at the interview, I was impressed and laid aside the doubt. It seemed as though he had done his homework on the team and was prepared to improve the current squad and not just a mere chequebook manager that would need billions to fix the squad.

I didn't expect a title challenge this year. To be honest, I wasn't expecting a lot in terms of league position and trophies. I was just expecting to see a team pressing more, working harder off the ball, more cohesive in defence and a bit more purpose to our attacks. Not the finished product but the work in progress.

What I've seen so far has been really disappointing. Pressing is almost non existent. Poor performances from individuals go unpunished and they continue to get games. I won't list it all but it's frustrating to watch and the way we bounce from formation to formation suggests to me that Emery is a little lost as well. Hopefully we start pulling in some better performancs and it all start coming together before the season ends. He hasn't burned any bridges with me and I'm not the type or person that's too stubborn to change my opinion when we start making progress. Progress is more than just the results so that's also why I disagree about lacking perspective. I'm not moaning about being outside of the top 4 or getting knocked out of cups.

Power n Glory wrote:What I've seen so far has been really disappointing. Pressing is almost non existent. Poor performances from individuals go unpunished and they continue to get games. I won't list it all but it's frustrating to watch and the way we bounce from formation to formation suggests to me that Emery is a little lost as well. Hopefully we start pulling in some better performancs and it all start coming together before the season ends. He hasn't burned any bridges with me and I'm not the type or person that's too stubborn to change my opinion when we start making progress. Progress is more than just the results so that's also why I disagree about lacking perspective. I'm not moaning about being outside of the top 4 or getting knocked out of cups.

This is going to be my last post on this topic because I feel like it's been dragged out.

You've made your opinion clear and I've made mine clear. Based on what you've said, our opinions on Emery aren't miles apart.

I think people are seriously underestimating the impact of the injuries we have suffered. Bellerin was getting back to his best form and gets injured for a while, then comes back against Chelsea and gets a season ending injury. Holding was performing superbly alongside Sokratis, but the former gets a season-ending injury and the latter is out for a month which has disrupted our defence. They are 3 of our best defensive players, all of whom played a huge role in our 22-game unbeaten run, that have been for lengthy spells injured.

For all of the stick Welbeck gets, he was a superb 3rd choice option and his pace, work-rate and power meant we could utilise him on the flanks as well. He eased the workload off of Lacazette and Aubameyang, was a superb bench option. He was in good form too. Then he gets a season ending injury. Mkhitaryan was injured for 6 weeks too which meant we had to play Ramsey/Aubameyang on the flanks to give us width.

I thought we were pressing quite well and were playing some good football up until these series of injuries affected our momentum.

It also doesn't help when your back up options are a 35-year old OAP and a midfielder having to play at right-back. We even had to play Xhaka at centre-back for a few games FFS!

Emery's tactical tinkering was lauded to begin with and now it's getting heavily criticised. Personally, I think the constant switching from 3atb to 4atb is because he is trying to figure out what strategy best suits the players we have available and which players have shortcomings that can be protected in different formations.

I would prefer it if he stuck to one central formation to start with, but it seems every week, players either keep getting ill or injured. Ozil and Aubameyang were ill for Huddersfield, then Ramsey gets a knee injury and Xhaka gets a groin injury.

There is an element of luck that we've not had when it comes to this.

That's why I say Emery's done a decent job considering the internal and external factors which have affected him. That includes Mislintat leaving midway through the season, too.

DiamondGooner wrote:I understand if you and some others think he's not the right man for the job but you can't make a conclusion when the season is half baked, if he fks it up we'll all be saying it come end of season but we should be all willing to wait till then before making sweeping comments.

why are you allowed your view now but we have to silence ours and wait til the end of the season? I will decide whenever the f**k I want what I think of this manager and am free to express it. Didn't know this was f***ing Nazi Germany and you are running the show...

Anyway, the absolute cheek you have to go on about trolls etc, when you should've been banned 500 times over for the level of insults out of your mouth, is completely hilarious...even more than you winning POTY.