https://orthodoxwiki.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=SeraphimX&feedformat=atomOrthodoxWiki - User contributions [en]2017-12-14T02:40:52ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.26.2https://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=User:SeraphimX&diff=65330User:SeraphimX2008-05-01T05:42:58Z<p>SeraphimX: New page: Happy to be here - hoping to help.</p>
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<div>Happy to be here - hoping to help.</div>SeraphimXhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Seraphim_(Rose)&diff=65240Talk:Seraphim (Rose)2008-04-30T07:54:08Z<p>SeraphimX: /* Suggestion .. ? */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>==Category==<br />
Do you really think he ought to be in [[:Category:American Saints]]? He's not been officially canonized by anyone and is still quite recent. &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:36, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
&quot;[H]e is (prematurely) celebrated by some Orthodox Christians as a saint&quot; -- I think he can be considered to be in the category of &quot;American Saints&quot; whether or not he is officially recognized as a saint. As you say, he is recent, so the status of his canonization may change. I hardly think adding him to the orthodoxwiki category will effect his canonization. Apologies if I am mistaken. --[[User:Magda|magda]] 14:36, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Yes, quite likely not! :) I was just wondering. I can't remember where the initial bit about his being celebrated comes from, though, especially it being &quot;in liturgy.&quot; I wonder who has the daring to celebrate someone liturgically whom their hierarchy has not yet openly glorified? &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:45, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Of course, all saints must be prematurely celebrated as such for the canonization to occur in the first place. Of course, full liturgical glorfiication should only come with episcopal blessing. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
==Homosexuality issue==<br />
I'd like to weigh in on the article mentioning that Father Serafim was a homosexual in his youth before converting to Orthodoxy. First of all I'd like to question the sources. There is no mention of this in his biography from Platina. This is not what you think about when you remember Father Serafim! To my mind this is like revealing someone's confession! He overcame so much and is such a wonderful example for us! We who have great reverence for him are pretty upset! No one but God and one's father confessor has a right to information like that..and splashed all over the internet no less!<br />
<br />
: There is always a balance we have to strike between reporting significant historical facts and the good and useful traditions of hagiography (and of course the line is somewhat blurred since Fr. Seraphim is not canonized). I don't think that the homosexuality passage is something which is ''required'' for this article. Its origins are from whatever source the [[Wikipedia:Seraphim Rose|Wikipedia article]] used (as this is an import). My guess is that it's this article: http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMSP01/saint.shtml<br />
<br />
: It's possible that the article draws on sections from the book of his letters published by his niece (who interestingly enough recently showed up on Wikipedia and added edits to the article there).<br />
<br />
: I would have no problem removing the passage. It may be more difficult to get the folks over at Wikipedia to do so, though. &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:29, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I can see why it would scandalize and turn off some, but I know, at least in the circles I inhabit, that this kind of testimony to the possibility for conversion is sorely needed. I really don't think it takes anything away from Fr. Seraphim's greatness, but only adds to it (or rather the manifestation of God's greatness in him). [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
::: Father, I agree. I read this article the other day, having not heard anything much about him, and was inspired by his victory over this sin. I felt that it added to his testimony to God's grace. The Bible certainly is not shy about letting us know the dark side of many of the Saints. That being said, I understand the initial concern. I don't believe confession should be taken lightly and gossip is never a good thing. The fact of the matter is that now it is public knowledge and I guess should be addressed in some way. --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe Rodgers]] 00:16, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
This could and should have been dealt with in a single line, similar to the beginning of one of the accounts of the life of St. Vladimir the Enlightener: Concerning his life before his baptism, it is best that we retain a discreet silence. Enough said.<br />
<br />
::Hi Fr. Greogry,<br />
<br />
::I would like to hear more about why you think this is the case. It has always seemed to me that we need to be honest about our saints -- their background and struggles. If we too easily place them on a pedestal, we remove their greatest triumph from them (because we fail to see the full glory of their triumph). Besides that, if this news is all over the internet, what good will it do us to hide it? Those from outside could accuse us of whitewashing. Like St. Paul, shouldn't we boast in our weaknesses that God may be glorified? <br />
<br />
::I don't think it is a scandal that Fr. Seraphim may have had a homosexual relationship befoe he became Orthodox. The article makes it clear that he left this lifestyle behind. There was repentance, acceptable to God, and no hypocrisy on his part. <br />
<br />
::I wonder if there's a generational difference here, too. It seems that previously homosexuality was something unspeakable. Now, it's being talked about all the time -- flashed over T.V., voted on in polls. Many say there's no real possibility of conversion for homosexuals, and homosexuality becomes for so many ''the'' defining aspect of their identity. Fr. Seraphim proves them wrong. What do you think? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
I've de-emphasized the homosexuality material by means of cutting text and adjusting the headers. What do y'all think? &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:49, 1 Jul 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I think that's good, esp. cutting out the header. Maybe we should've left in whatever citations were there though, no? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
The quotes didn't really seem to add much to the article, but I'll add in a citation link after the section in question. &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:54, 1 Jul 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Regarding the different biographies of Fr. Seraphim, and especially his niece's discussion of him homosexuality, see http://www.chattablogs.com/aionioszoe/archives/025629.html. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
== uncompromised teachings of the Church? ==<br />
<br />
The article states that Frs. Herman and Seraphim transmitted the uncompromised teachings of the Church on a number of different issues. There are many serious Orthodox writers who disagree with much of what these Fathers wrote on these topics. To maintain the wiki's NPOV standards, I would suggest that this statement be reworded without this assertion. <br />
<br />
[[User:Kadj|Kadj]] 06:25, May 13, 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps you have a way that this could be re-stated to maintain NPOV-MCB? --{{User:Pistevo/sig}} 07:59, May 13, 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:''above comment by [[User:Kadj|Kadj]] edited by [[User:PADRAEG|PADRAEG]], reversed by [[User:Pistevo]]''<br />
::It is a generally accepted part of [[w:netiquette|netiquette]] that one does not misrepresent another person's comments. Possibly because it hasn't been possible before, but a person's comments should '''''never''''' be changed by another person. This action can also be defamatory. If there was a superior way to phrase 'transmitted uncompromised teachings' (etc.) in the article, any given person is invited and asked to do this; a talk page is ''not'' the place for editing a genuine editor's work. &amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Pιs&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;gold&quot;&gt;τévο&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;complaints&lt;/font&gt;]]''&lt;/sup&gt; at 01:01, September 9, 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Obviously [[User:PADRAEG]] agrees with [[User:Kadj|Kadj's]] comment. It would be helpful to us if he could give some supporting evidence; examples of teachings which differ from historic Orthodoxy. Then this thread would be instructive rather than simply defamatory. Others could respond, and a real conversation could take place. — [[User:FrJohn|&lt;b&gt;FrJohn&lt;/b&gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new talk])<br />
<br />
::Father Seraphim did, to the end of his life, transmit the uncompromised teachings of the Church in the sense that the large majority of &quot;his&quot; works are really just made up of quotes from the saints and from the lives of saints. He really didn't say anything new, especially in the whole 'toll-houses' debate. In fact, most of his critics simply have not read through the book carefully enough, especially those who accuse him falsely of Platonism or Gnosticism. He openly states in the book that his position is based on the amount of available information from the fathers. Anyone who knew Father Seraphim (and MOST of his contemporaries, disciples, friends etc are alive today) knew that his entire purpose in writing was to translate and transmit information from the fathers. In short, the point of this little paragraph is this: there's more than enough evidence to suggest that this article is correct, at least as far as asserting that that was Father Seraphim's GOAL, and most people who have spent any serious amount of time researching Fr. Seraphim will agree that he did, in fact, accomplish that goal. I don't think there's a POV issue here.<br />
<br />
== Why the world needs to know the truth on Fr. Seraphim ==<br />
<br />
When I heard that Fr. Seraphim Rose *may* have been a homosexual, I was shocked, but at the same time very much intrigued. For many of us Orthodox Christians, we have come to view Fr. Seraphim as a modern example of the holiness as seen from the desert fathers. Granted there are many who argue and disagree with his theology, I being one of them, but theology aside I think we can all say that he was indeed a holy man, filled with God's grace. I think it is a bad thing that his real life is covered up. I beleive he was a homosexual, and if he really was, then I think that it should be written about. Why? Because as the Orthodox Church grows in numbers, it will ultimately have to face the critical eyes of the modern secular world. One of the most pressing issues facing religion is homosexuality. The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality is a passion which can be overcome by Christ. We, the Orthodox Church, will need to use concrete examples of holy men (and women) whose homosexual tendencies were curbed by ascetic practice within the Church if we want to A) convince the world that the True Church is the Orthodox Church and B) To help those homosexuals already in the Church (and yes there are many) to be encouraged, inspired, and strengthed by the lives of those like Fr. Seraphim Rose; that homosexuality can be overcome through prayer, fasting, and the sacraments . The Orthodox Church for centuries has used the lives of Her saints to proclaim the Truth of Christ's action in the world, and now in the 21st century we find ourselves in the same position but with just different issues. I hope that one day if Fr. Seraphim is canonized that thourgh his intercession and story of his life many homosexuals will find comfort, hope, and inspiration in their struggle. [[User:John Maletis|John Maletis]] 19:01, August 22, 2006<br />
<br />
:Thanks, John for these words. That's a nice statement of why I think it's important to include these details here too. — [[User:FrJohn|&lt;b&gt;FrJohn&lt;/b&gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new talk])<br />
<br />
::Hi, I know I have come across this 2 years after your initial discussion but when I read about this priest on various blogs on the intranet (literally only 10 minutes ago) I felt physically ill because I understood that he was an active homosexual whilst being a priest and then glorified by people ... but upon looking him up in Orthodox wiki, reading this discussion I am understanding that he was homosexual prior to his conversion ... I really do think that this topic warrants a small paragraph on the main article, for clearing up the initial scandalismo that a traditional orthodox person, like myself, will go through without knowing that he repented for this and worked through those issues - so that it is clear to us traditionalists reading it and that we dont misunderstand his life ...that he repented and WAS homosexual as opposed to IS homosexual ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:41, March 19, 2008 (PDT)<br />
<br />
:::I believe this is covered adequately in the article. There is an appropriate reference link for more information. —[[User:Magda|&lt;b&gt;magda&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 18:09, March 19, 2008 (PDT)<br />
<br />
== Suggestion .. ? ==<br />
<br />
I suggest the following paragraph;<br />
<br />
&quot;While studying under Alan Watts at the American Academy of Asian Studies after graduating from Pomona College in 1956, Eugene discovered the writings of René Guenon. Through Guenon's writings, Eugene was inspired to seek out an authentic, grounded spiritual faith tradition. Gregerson, a practicing Russian Orthodox Christian at the time, introduced Eugene to Orthodoxy. Just as Gregerson was choosing to abandon his Orthodoxy, Eugene was inspired to learn more about the faith. This culminated in Eugene's decision to enter the Church through chrismation in 1962.&quot; <br />
<br />
....be moved upwards to end the section &quot;Early Life&quot; as opposed to being in the &quot;Orthodoxy&quot; section. This paragraph is really an end paragraph anyways, not an opening one for a new section. Just an idea - I don't want to make any edits without agreement... I've been editing wikipedia articles for years but am brand new to Orthodox Wiki. :)</div>SeraphimXhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk:Seraphim_(Rose)&diff=65239Talk:Seraphim (Rose)2008-04-30T07:48:59Z<p>SeraphimX: /* uncompromised teachings of the Church? */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Category==<br />
Do you really think he ought to be in [[:Category:American Saints]]? He's not been officially canonized by anyone and is still quite recent. &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:36, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
&quot;[H]e is (prematurely) celebrated by some Orthodox Christians as a saint&quot; -- I think he can be considered to be in the category of &quot;American Saints&quot; whether or not he is officially recognized as a saint. As you say, he is recent, so the status of his canonization may change. I hardly think adding him to the orthodoxwiki category will effect his canonization. Apologies if I am mistaken. --[[User:Magda|magda]] 14:36, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: Yes, quite likely not! :) I was just wondering. I can't remember where the initial bit about his being celebrated comes from, though, especially it being &quot;in liturgy.&quot; I wonder who has the daring to celebrate someone liturgically whom their hierarchy has not yet openly glorified? &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:45, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Of course, all saints must be prematurely celebrated as such for the canonization to occur in the first place. Of course, full liturgical glorfiication should only come with episcopal blessing. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
==Homosexuality issue==<br />
I'd like to weigh in on the article mentioning that Father Serafim was a homosexual in his youth before converting to Orthodoxy. First of all I'd like to question the sources. There is no mention of this in his biography from Platina. This is not what you think about when you remember Father Serafim! To my mind this is like revealing someone's confession! He overcame so much and is such a wonderful example for us! We who have great reverence for him are pretty upset! No one but God and one's father confessor has a right to information like that..and splashed all over the internet no less!<br />
<br />
: There is always a balance we have to strike between reporting significant historical facts and the good and useful traditions of hagiography (and of course the line is somewhat blurred since Fr. Seraphim is not canonized). I don't think that the homosexuality passage is something which is ''required'' for this article. Its origins are from whatever source the [[Wikipedia:Seraphim Rose|Wikipedia article]] used (as this is an import). My guess is that it's this article: http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMSP01/saint.shtml<br />
<br />
: It's possible that the article draws on sections from the book of his letters published by his niece (who interestingly enough recently showed up on Wikipedia and added edits to the article there).<br />
<br />
: I would have no problem removing the passage. It may be more difficult to get the folks over at Wikipedia to do so, though. &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:29, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:: I can see why it would scandalize and turn off some, but I know, at least in the circles I inhabit, that this kind of testimony to the possibility for conversion is sorely needed. I really don't think it takes anything away from Fr. Seraphim's greatness, but only adds to it (or rather the manifestation of God's greatness in him). [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
::: Father, I agree. I read this article the other day, having not heard anything much about him, and was inspired by his victory over this sin. I felt that it added to his testimony to God's grace. The Bible certainly is not shy about letting us know the dark side of many of the Saints. That being said, I understand the initial concern. I don't believe confession should be taken lightly and gossip is never a good thing. The fact of the matter is that now it is public knowledge and I guess should be addressed in some way. --[[User:Joe Rodgers|Joe Rodgers]] 00:16, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
This could and should have been dealt with in a single line, similar to the beginning of one of the accounts of the life of St. Vladimir the Enlightener: Concerning his life before his baptism, it is best that we retain a discreet silence. Enough said.<br />
<br />
::Hi Fr. Greogry,<br />
<br />
::I would like to hear more about why you think this is the case. It has always seemed to me that we need to be honest about our saints -- their background and struggles. If we too easily place them on a pedestal, we remove their greatest triumph from them (because we fail to see the full glory of their triumph). Besides that, if this news is all over the internet, what good will it do us to hide it? Those from outside could accuse us of whitewashing. Like St. Paul, shouldn't we boast in our weaknesses that God may be glorified? <br />
<br />
::I don't think it is a scandal that Fr. Seraphim may have had a homosexual relationship befoe he became Orthodox. The article makes it clear that he left this lifestyle behind. There was repentance, acceptable to God, and no hypocrisy on his part. <br />
<br />
::I wonder if there's a generational difference here, too. It seems that previously homosexuality was something unspeakable. Now, it's being talked about all the time -- flashed over T.V., voted on in polls. Many say there's no real possibility of conversion for homosexuals, and homosexuality becomes for so many ''the'' defining aspect of their identity. Fr. Seraphim proves them wrong. What do you think? Thanks, [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
I've de-emphasized the homosexuality material by means of cutting text and adjusting the headers. What do y'all think? &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:49, 1 Jul 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I think that's good, esp. cutting out the header. Maybe we should've left in whatever citations were there though, no? [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
The quotes didn't really seem to add much to the article, but I'll add in a citation link after the section in question. &amp;mdash;[[User:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;Dcn. Andrew&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Randompage|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;random&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/ASDamick|&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:54, 1 Jul 2005 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Regarding the different biographies of Fr. Seraphim, and especially his niece's discussion of him homosexuality, see http://www.chattablogs.com/aionioszoe/archives/025629.html. [[User:FrJohn|Fr. John]]<br />
<br />
== uncompromised teachings of the Church? ==<br />
<br />
The article states that Frs. Herman and Seraphim transmitted the uncompromised teachings of the Church on a number of different issues. There are many serious Orthodox writers who disagree with much of what these Fathers wrote on these topics. To maintain the wiki's NPOV standards, I would suggest that this statement be reworded without this assertion. <br />
<br />
[[User:Kadj|Kadj]] 06:25, May 13, 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps you have a way that this could be re-stated to maintain NPOV-MCB? --{{User:Pistevo/sig}} 07:59, May 13, 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:''above comment by [[User:Kadj|Kadj]] edited by [[User:PADRAEG|PADRAEG]], reversed by [[User:Pistevo]]''<br />
::It is a generally accepted part of [[w:netiquette|netiquette]] that one does not misrepresent another person's comments. Possibly because it hasn't been possible before, but a person's comments should '''''never''''' be changed by another person. This action can also be defamatory. If there was a superior way to phrase 'transmitted uncompromised teachings' (etc.) in the article, any given person is invited and asked to do this; a talk page is ''not'' the place for editing a genuine editor's work. &amp;mdash; edited by [[User:Pistevo|&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;Pιs&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;gold&quot;&gt;τévο&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;''[[User talk:Pistevo|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]'' ''[[User talk:Pistevo/dev/null|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;complaints&lt;/font&gt;]]''&lt;/sup&gt; at 01:01, September 9, 2006 (CDT)<br />
<br />
:Obviously [[User:PADRAEG]] agrees with [[User:Kadj|Kadj's]] comment. It would be helpful to us if he could give some supporting evidence; examples of teachings which differ from historic Orthodoxy. Then this thread would be instructive rather than simply defamatory. Others could respond, and a real conversation could take place. — [[User:FrJohn|&lt;b&gt;FrJohn&lt;/b&gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new talk])<br />
<br />
::Father Seraphim did, to the end of his life, transmit the uncompromised teachings of the Church in the sense that the large majority of &quot;his&quot; works are really just made up of quotes from the saints and from the lives of saints. He really didn't say anything new, especially in the whole 'toll-houses' debate. In fact, most of his critics simply have not read through the book carefully enough, especially those who accuse him falsely of Platonism or Gnosticism. He openly states in the book that his position is based on the amount of available information from the fathers. Anyone who knew Father Seraphim (and MOST of his contemporaries, disciples, friends etc are alive today) knew that his entire purpose in writing was to translate and transmit information from the fathers. In short, the point of this little paragraph is this: there's more than enough evidence to suggest that this article is correct, at least as far as asserting that that was Father Seraphim's GOAL, and most people who have spent any serious amount of time researching Fr. Seraphim will agree that he did, in fact, accomplish that goal. I don't think there's a POV issue here.<br />
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== Why the world needs to know the truth on Fr. Seraphim ==<br />
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When I heard that Fr. Seraphim Rose *may* have been a homosexual, I was shocked, but at the same time very much intrigued. For many of us Orthodox Christians, we have come to view Fr. Seraphim as a modern example of the holiness as seen from the desert fathers. Granted there are many who argue and disagree with his theology, I being one of them, but theology aside I think we can all say that he was indeed a holy man, filled with God's grace. I think it is a bad thing that his real life is covered up. I beleive he was a homosexual, and if he really was, then I think that it should be written about. Why? Because as the Orthodox Church grows in numbers, it will ultimately have to face the critical eyes of the modern secular world. One of the most pressing issues facing religion is homosexuality. The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality is a passion which can be overcome by Christ. We, the Orthodox Church, will need to use concrete examples of holy men (and women) whose homosexual tendencies were curbed by ascetic practice within the Church if we want to A) convince the world that the True Church is the Orthodox Church and B) To help those homosexuals already in the Church (and yes there are many) to be encouraged, inspired, and strengthed by the lives of those like Fr. Seraphim Rose; that homosexuality can be overcome through prayer, fasting, and the sacraments . The Orthodox Church for centuries has used the lives of Her saints to proclaim the Truth of Christ's action in the world, and now in the 21st century we find ourselves in the same position but with just different issues. I hope that one day if Fr. Seraphim is canonized that thourgh his intercession and story of his life many homosexuals will find comfort, hope, and inspiration in their struggle. [[User:John Maletis|John Maletis]] 19:01, August 22, 2006<br />
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:Thanks, John for these words. That's a nice statement of why I think it's important to include these details here too. — [[User:FrJohn|&lt;b&gt;FrJohn&lt;/b&gt;]] ([http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/User_talk:FrJohn&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new talk])<br />
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::Hi, I know I have come across this 2 years after your initial discussion but when I read about this priest on various blogs on the intranet (literally only 10 minutes ago) I felt physically ill because I understood that he was an active homosexual whilst being a priest and then glorified by people ... but upon looking him up in Orthodox wiki, reading this discussion I am understanding that he was homosexual prior to his conversion ... I really do think that this topic warrants a small paragraph on the main article, for clearing up the initial scandalismo that a traditional orthodox person, like myself, will go through without knowing that he repented for this and worked through those issues - so that it is clear to us traditionalists reading it and that we dont misunderstand his life ...that he repented and WAS homosexual as opposed to IS homosexual ... [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 17:41, March 19, 2008 (PDT)<br />
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:::I believe this is covered adequately in the article. There is an appropriate reference link for more information. —[[User:Magda|&lt;b&gt;magda&lt;/b&gt;]] ([[User_talk:Magda|talk]]) 18:09, March 19, 2008 (PDT)</div>SeraphimXhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Seraphim_(Rose)&diff=65238Seraphim (Rose)2008-04-30T07:38:02Z<p>SeraphimX: /* Writings */ official site.</p>
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<div>{{orthodoxyinamerica}}<br />
Hieromonk '''Seraphim (Rose)''', n&amp;eacute; '''Eugene Dennis Rose''' ([[August 13]], 1934-[[September 2]], 1982) was a [[hieromonk]] of the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia]] in the United States, whose writings have helped spread Orthodox Christianity throughout modern America and the West and are also quite popular in Russia. Although not formally [[Glorification|glorified]] (canonized), he is (some say prematurely) celebrated by some Orthodox Christians as a [[saint]] in [[icon|iconography]], [[liturgy]], and [[prayer]].<br />
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==Early life==<br />
Born to Frank and Esther Rose in San Diego, Eugene was raised in California, where he would remain his entire life. He was baptized in the Methodist faith at fourteen years old, but later became an atheist, losing all belief in God. Rated at genius level in high school in formal IQ testing, in San Francisco he entered a beatnik phase in his life and practiced Buddhism.<br />
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In the summer of 1955, between his junior and senior years at college, Eugene met Finnish-born Jon Gregerson, through whom he came into initial contact with the Orthodox faith. Eugene came out as [[homosexuality|homosexual]] to a close friend from college after his mother discovered letters penned between her son and Walter Pomeroy, a friend from high school. Eugene later shed his identity as a gay man as he slowly accepted Orthodoxy, eventually ending his lengthy relationship with Gregerson.[http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMSP01/saint.shtml]<br />
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==Orthodoxy==<br />
While studying under Alan Watts at the American Academy of Asian Studies after graduating from Pomona College in 1956, Eugene discovered the writings of Ren&amp;eacute; Guenon. Through Guenon's writings, Eugene was inspired to seek out an authentic, grounded spiritual faith tradition. Gregerson, a practicing Russian Orthodox Christian at the time, introduced Eugene to Orthodoxy. Just as Gregerson was choosing to abandon his Orthodoxy, Eugene was inspired to learn more about the faith. This culminated in Eugene's decision to enter the Church through [[chrismation]] in 1962.<br />
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Eugene and another Orthodox Christian, [[Herman Podmoshensky|Gleb Podmoshensky]], later formed a community of Orthodox [[booksellers]] and [[Magazines and Publications|publishers]] called the [[St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood (Platina, California)|St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood]]. The community eventually decided to flee urban modernity into the wildrness of northern California to become [[monasticism|monks]] in 1966. At his [[tonsure]] in 1970, Eugene took the name &quot;Seraphim&quot; after St. Seraphim of Sarov.<br />
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Following his [[ordination]] as [[hieromonk]], Fr. Seraphim began writing several books, including ''[[God's Revelation to the Human Heart]]'', ''[[Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future]]'', and ''[[The Soul After Death]]''. He also founded the magazine ''[[The Orthodox Word]]'', still published today by the Brotherhood. The collective body of work that Fr. Seraphim published was quickly proliferated throughout America upon Fr. Seraphim's death and later in Russia and Eastern Europe upon the fall of atheist Communism in those countries.<br />
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As a monk, Fr. Seraphim developed a close relationship with St. [[John Maximovitch]], then [[bishop]] of San Francisco for the [[Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia|Russian Church Abroad]].<br />
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==Teachings==<br />
Fr. Seraphim, as a [[convert]] and eventually a hieromonk in the Russian Church Abroad, is regarded by many as a bastion of sound Orthodox teaching in a time when many American [[jurisdiction]]s, and even factions within the Russian Church Abroad itself, were allegedly introducing new and/or erroneous teachings or practices. In ''Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future'', Fr. Seraphim highlighted what he and others saw as dangerous trends in both the secular and ecclesiastical worlds&amp;mdash;namely, modernism and ecumenism (though the book mainly deals with religious movements invading America and outside Orthodoxy). <br />
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It was during this time also that [[Holy Transfiguration Monastery (Brookline, Massachusetts)]] began to distort the official positions of the Synod of the Russian Church Abroad. Fr. Seraphim with his fellow monastic, Fr. [[Herman (Podmoshensky)]], used their own tiny printing press to transmit the uncompromised teachings of the Church on a number of issues such as [[evolution]], [[life after death]], and pre-[[Great Schism|Schism]] western [[saint|saints]].<br />
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One major issue of contention between Fr. Seraphim and Holy Transfiguration Monastery was the presence of [[grace]] within the allegedly Soviet-compromised hierarchy of the [[Church of Russia|Moscow Patriarchate]]. Fr. Seraphim refuted the extremist views of this monastery and consistently affirmed that Moscow, though ailing, still had grace. <br />
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Throughout his life, Fr. Seraphim stressed an &quot;Orthodoxy of the heart,&quot; which he felt was absent in much of the ecclesiastical life in America.<br />
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One of his more controversial books is ''[[The Soul After Death]]'', which includes the promulgation of the so-called [[Aerial Toll-Houses]] doctrine regarding the soul's journey after its departure from the body. This teaching has drawn much criticism from others within the Orthodox Church, who describe it as [[gnosticism|gnostic]].<br />
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[[Image:Father Seraphim (Rose).jpg|left|thumb|200px|Picture of Father Seraphim Rose on Mount Yolla Bolly ([[October 11|Oct. 11]], 1981), holding an [[Icon]] of the [[Holy Trinity]].]]<br />
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==Death==<br />
After feeling acute pains for several days while working in his cell in 1982, Fr. Seraphim was taken by his fellow monks to a hospital for treatment. When he reluctantly arrived at Mercy Medical Center in Redding, California, he was declared in critical condition and fell into semi-consciousness. After exploratory surgery was completed, it was discovered that a blood clot had blocked a vein supplying blood to Fr. Seraphim's intestine, which had become a mass of non-functioning dead tissue. Fr. Seraphim slipped into a coma after a second surgery. Hundreds of people came to visit the hospital and celebrated the [[Divine Liturgy|liturgy]] regularly in the chapel, praying for a miracle to save their beloved father's life. Reaction from throughout the world was great, with thousands of prayers said for the ailing hieromonk. He died on [[September 2]], 1982.<br />
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After being dead for several days and while lying in repose in a pauper's coffin at his wilderness monastery, visitors claimed that Fr. Seraphim did not succumb to decay and rigor mortis. His body remained supple while several claimed he smelled of roses. A cause for glorification was begun after Fr. Seraphim's burial. He eventually informally attained the title of ''Blessed'' after several miracles were attributed to him and now he awaits glorification into sainthood by an Orthodox [[synod]].<br />
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==Books==<br />
===As Author===<br />
*''God's Revelation to the Human Heart''. Platina: Saint Herman Press, 1988. (ISBN 0938635034)<br />
*''Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age''. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1994. (ISBN 1887904069) (as Eugene Rose)<br />
:*Second Edition: Hieromonk Damascene (Christensen) (ed.), 2001.<br />
*''Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future''. Platina: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1975. (ISBN 188790400X)<br />
*''The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church''. Platina: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1983. (ISBN 0938635123)<br />
*''The Soul After Death: Contemporary &quot;After-Death&quot; Experiences in the Light of the Orthodox Teaching on the Afterlife''. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1988. (ISBN 093863514X)<br />
*''The Apocalypse: In the Teachings of Ancient Christianity''. Platina: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1985. (ISBN 0938635670)<br />
*''Genesis, Creation and Early Man''. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 2000. (ISBN 1887904026)<br />
* ''Blessed John the Wonderworker: A Preliminary Account of the Life and Miracles of Archbishop John Maximovitch''. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1987. (ISBN 0938635018)<br />
* ''Letters from Father Seraphim''. Nikodemos Orthodox Publication Society. (ISBN 1879066084)<br />
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===As Editor or Translator===<br />
* ''Vita Patrum'', by St. Gregory of Tours. (Foreword by Seraphim Rose. This introductory material runs more than 100 pages.) Platina: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1988. (ISBN 0938635239)<br />
* ''The Apocalypse of St. John: An Orthodox Commentary'', by Archbishop Averky Taushev. (Introduction by Seraphim Rose). Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1998. (ISBN 0938635670) <br />
*''The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God'', by St. [[John Maximovitch|John of Shanghai (Maximovitch)]]. Includes an introduction by Fr. Seraphim on the theology of Archbishop (now Saint) John. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1978. (ISBN 0938635689)<br />
* ''Little Russian Philokalia, vol. 1'', by St. Seraphim of Sarov. St. Xenia Skete Press, 1997. (ISBN 0938635301)<br />
*''Little Russian Philokalia, vol. 2'', by Abbot Nazarius of Valaam. St. Xenia Skete Press, 1997. (ISBN 093863531X)<br />
* ''Little Russian Philokalia, vol. 4'', by St. Paisius Velichkovsky. : St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1994. (ISBN 0938635336)<br />
* ''The Sin of Adam and Our Redemption: Seven Homilies'', by St. Symeon the New Theologian. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1979. (ASIN B0006DY97Q)<br />
* ''The First-Created Man: Seven Homilies by St. Symeon the New Theologian'', by St. Symeon the New Theologian. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1994. (ISBN 0938635115). '''(Apparently somewhat different than the above, as it is 40 pages longer.)'''<br />
* ''The Path to Salvation: A Manual of Spiritual Transformation'', by St. Theophan the Recluse. St. Xenia Skete Press, 1997. (ISBN 1887904514)<br />
*''[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/restoration.aspx The Restoration of the Orthodox Way of Life]'', by Archbishop Andrew of New-Diveyevo. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1976. (ASIN B0006Y3F1G)<br />
* ''The Northern Thebaid: Monastic Saints of the Russian North'', compiled and translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose and Abbot Herman Podmoshensky. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1995. (ISBN 0938635379)<br />
* ''Contemporary Ascetics of Mount Athos, Vol. 2'', by Abbot Cherubim, translated by Nun Thaisia Simonsson. Platina: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1992 (2nd Rev edition). (ISBN 0938635573)<br />
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===Biographies===<br />
*Christensen, Hieromonk Damascene. ''Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works''. Platina: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 2003. (ISBN 1887904077) (greatly revised edition of ''Not of This World'')<br />
*Christensen, Monk Damascene. ''Not of This World: The Life and Teaching of Fr. Seraphim Rose''. Platina: St. Herman Press, 1993. (ISBN 0938635522)<br />
*[http://www.cathyscott.com/rose.htm Scott, Cathy]. ''Seraphim Rose: The True Story and Private Letters.'' Regina Orthodox Press, 2000. (ISBN 1928653014). '''N.B.: The author is Fr. Seraphim Rose's niece.'''<br />
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==External links==<br />
*[http://www.fatherseraphimrose.org/ Father Seraphim Rose Foundation]<br />
*[http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMSP01/saint.shtml Biographical article from Pomona College Magazine]<br />
*[http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/FrSeraphim.html Father Seraphim Rose: Biography and Online Bookshop]<br />
*[http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Elders/Various/Fr._Seraphim_Rose/ Photos of Fr. Seraphim Rose]<br />
*[http://deathtotheworld.com/seraphimrose/index.html Death to the World : Father Seraphim Rose of Platina]<br />
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===Criticism &amp; debate===<br />
*[http://www.new-ostrog.org/gnostic/ The Toll-House Myth: The Neo-Gnosticism of Fr. Seraphim Rose], by Fr. Michael Azkoul<br />
*[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_debate.aspx The Debate Over Aerial Toll-Houses], Extract from the Minutes of the Session of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside or Russia (1980)<br />
*[http://www.new-ostrog.org/toll_main.html Regarding the Toll Houses], Various articles by Archbishop Lazar, Fr. Michael Pomazansky, and others.<br />
*[http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_pomaz.aspx On the Question of the &quot;Toll-Houses&quot;: Our War is not Against Flesh and Blood], by Fr. Michael Pomazansky<br />
*[http://www.new-ostrog.org/return_tollhouses.html The Return of the Tollhouses], by Fr. Michael Azkoul<br />
*[http://home.it.net.au/%7Ejgrapsas/pages/afterdeath.htm Life after death… Mysteries beyond the grave], by Fr. Thomas Hopko<br />
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===Writings===<br />
*[http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/charismatic_revival_s_rose_e.htm Charismatic Revival as a Sign of the Times]<br />
*[http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/nihilism.html Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age ]<br />
*[http://www.stxenia.org/frsrose/ortham.shtml Orthodoxy in America: Its Historical Past and Present]<br />
*[http://www.deathtotheworld.com Death to the World - A Compendium of Fr. Seraphim Rose's writings on-line.]<br />
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[[Category:American Saints]]<br />
[[Category:Modern Writers]]<br />
[[Category:Monastics]]<br />
[[Category:Priests]]<br />
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[[fr:Seraphim Rose]]</div>SeraphimXhttps://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Shio_the_Anchorite&diff=65237Shio the Anchorite2008-04-30T07:32:43Z<p>SeraphimX: </p>
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<div>[[Image:ShiotheAnchorite.jpg|right|thumb|300px|St. [[John the Forerunner]], the [[Theotokos]] and St. Shio]]<br />
Our venerable father '''Shio Mgvime''', [[Anchorite]] of Georgia, was born in Syrian Antioch. His parents were Christians and raised their son as their only heir. The youth received a fine education; he studied the [[Bible|Holy Scripture]], and by a young age he was accomplished in expounding the Word of God. After hearing about a holy ascetic named John, Shio secretly left his parents' home and went to the saint. However, John made the youth return to his parents, foretelling that they would become [[monk|monastics]]. This prediction was soon fulfilled. Shio later distributed his inheritance and also received the monastic tonsure from St. John. <br />
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Twenty years later, Shio set off to Georgia to preach the Word of God with twelve other chosen disciples of St. John. With the blessing both of his teacher and of the Georgian Katholikos Eulabius, St. Shio settled in a cave west of the city of Mtskhet, where he made austere ascetic efforts and was vouchsafed miraculous visions. The solitary life of the ascetic became known, and soon the place of the saint's struggles was transformed into a [[monastery]], where he established a church dedicated to the [[Trinity|Most Holy Trinity]].&lt;ref&gt;The Lives of the Georgian Saints - St. Herman Press; 1st edition (2006) ISBN-10: 1887904107 ISBN-13: 978-1887904100&lt;/ref&gt; <br />
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Later on, other churches were built in honor of the [[Theotokos|Mother of God]] and St. [[John the Forerunner]]. All the churches were consecrated by the Katholikos Macarius. The number of brethren increased, and the monk gave his blessing for them to found the Mgvim monastery, while he continued his deeds of salvation in seclusion. <br />
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St. Shio reposed on [[May 9]]. On the night before his death, he partook of the [[Communion|Holy Mysteries]] and gave the brethren a final salvific instruction. The saint's relics were buried in the monastery he founded. St Shio is the author of 160 precepts for the brethren.<br />
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==Sources==<br />
[1] The Lives of the Georgian Saints - St. Herman Press; 1st edition (2006) ISBN-10: 1887904107 ISBN-13: 978-1887904100<br />
*[http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp www.oca.org - Lives of Saints, May 9.]<br />
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==External Link==<br />
*[http://deathtotheworld.com/lot/lives/stshio/stshio.html Chapter on St. Shio from &quot;Lives of the Georgian Saints]<br />
*[http://www.comeandseeicons.com/s/lkg20.htm St. Shio of Mvgime]<br />
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[[Category:Saints]]<br />
[[Category:Monastics]]<br />
[[Category:Georgian Saints]]</div>SeraphimX