Have any of you had any experience with this? This was a first for me. After playing in a 8ball tourney last night I got into a little action with a guy I beat in the first round earlier. Race to 5 for $30/set 9ball. He had a backer who only wanted him to do $5/rack but gave in to the player to front the first two sets. I won the first two sets and the guy wanted to play race to 5 for $75. I said okay. I was up 4-1 when the guy forfeited. He went to his backer for the cash and the backer told him he didn't agree to back in on that last set for that much. So the player came up and said he couldn't pay but I could hold on to his equipment (Kangaroo Jumper, custom cue of some sort..not yet finish coated but nice...decent case) and he would come back tomorrow and give me $100 for the trouble. I said fine since other players said they know where he could be found if he didn't show up.

This was a first for me though. Have any of you had this experience? Did you charge way more for the "trouble"? I figured that if he didn't show I could have the cue refinished and get at least $200 for it...and have a jump cue.

ray

01-05-2004, 10:08 AM

i once had a guy try to stiff me for $150. i just went outside and repo'd his king cobra set of golf clubs.

sold 'em for $250..

ray

Popcorn

01-05-2004, 10:15 AM

I would have taken the cue if he offered, but would not have said "Give me your cue till you pay". As sincere as he may sound about paying you, You will more likely get the money with the cue, then without it. Basically you have loaned him some money and have a little security to insure you don't get stiffed.

Popcorn

01-05-2004, 10:17 AM

You committed a crime, you went from being the good guy to being the bad guy.

ray

01-05-2004, 10:34 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You committed a crime, you went from being the good guy to being the bad guy. <hr /></blockquote>

eh, i've been called worse..

ray

Popcorn

01-05-2004, 10:57 AM

In all honesty though, it is just not what you do. It is best to put up money and not let something like that happen, but you can't compound the problem by making threats.

ray

01-05-2004, 11:10 AM

i didn't THREATEN anything, he had his choice between his cue and his clubs..

he chose the clubs, and i don't golf..

ray

UWPoolGod

01-05-2004, 11:13 AM

I would have taken the cue if he offered, but would not have said "Give me your cue till you pay". &lt;-Popcorn

yeah I would not have demanded that he give me the cue. I asked if he had an ATM card but he said no only credit card. Still may have been able to put it in the ATM. We would have been at an impass, but then again some of my seasoned gambling friends would have probably told me to snag his cue...or put his thumbs on the edge of the pool table for a good whacking. LOL

tateuts

01-05-2004, 12:06 PM

If you're going to gamble more and more, and it sounds like you're quite good enough to do it, I think the more appropriate question you should ask yourself is: What would I do if I got stiffed?

What would you do?

The answer - the only intelligent answer - is: nothing. You leave without getting paid. You might argue, and chew them out a little, make them feel bad, but in the end you will get stiffed. You don't fight them. You don't wait outside the door with your cue stick.

The lesson is, if you're gambling with less than credit worthy opponents, put up the cash, or pay after small increments. This avoids a lot of problems like this. Even good guys may stiff you if you get into a heated argument. As you can see, small stakes can quickly escalate into bigger bucks. I can't tell you how many times I've seen two dollar games turn into two hundred dollar losses.

Anyway, concerning this fellow, this has happened to me a few times and I gave them a time limit. I might say "I willing to hold it until tomorrow, but that's it" or whatever and made it clear I was no pawn shop. Typical collateral is watches and cues. Like Popcorn said, I would rather walk with the mercandise but if someone is giving you something of considerably greater value than the debt, that's not right either.

When I was your age my partner and I used to play in bars for extra spending money. We won $350 in a bar one night and had to take a check - it was bad and we never got the money. Nothing we could do about it either because illegal gambling debts are not enforceable.

Chris

UWPoolGod

01-05-2004, 12:27 PM

The answer - the only intelligent answer - is: nothing. You leave without getting paid. You might argue, and chew them out a little, make them feel bad, but in the end you will get stiffed. You don't fight them. You don't wait outside the door with your cue stick. &lt;--tateuts

Yeah I am a pretty nice guy. The guy pulled out about $12 bucks and I was going to just say give me that and we'll call it even before he offered his equipment for a day to get the money. I would not have fought him...would have bad mouthed him...wouldn't get him banned from the tourney because I would like his future entry fee and matched money in the pot during the tourney. I would probably just pitch him $#!+. But you are right that I should have given hima deadline...I kind of did by saying that I would be at the tourney tonight, and he said he'd be there. Just chalk it up to a learning experience. Everyone has to start somewhere.

roscoe

01-05-2004, 01:09 PM

Like popcorn said: you put the stake money upfront. This money remains and is the final payment. For instance, If I'm playing 9ball for 20/game there will be a 20.00 stake laying around somewhere or being held by some neutral party. I get paid for every game I win or visa versa but that stake money remains till the final game. That way you are assured of being paid.

Roscoe

datplayer

01-05-2004, 01:15 PM

Odd that you brought this up since this just happened at our pool hall just the other day. Two guys who play each other quite frequently were playing for $50 a set, and soon one of them was down $250. The guy offered his cue for the other guy to hold since he said he "forgot to bring his ATM card." Well, the cue is a Lambros and worth $1200 easy. Personally, I think the guy is flat out stupid. I can't say what would happened if he didn't pay up, but I'd rather lose $250 than give up a $1200 cue.

UWPoolGod

01-05-2004, 01:20 PM

Well if they regularly play each other they probably know the other guy is good for it. But you are right about the cue. If I was going to gamble I would make sure I had enough to cover...or maybe he was too proud/embarrassed to hit the ATM during play.

Perk

01-05-2004, 01:46 PM

Well, I feel money should be posted, but I would take the cues for collatoral with a deadline. But a person that will gamble without money has issues.

A friend of mine won 380.00 from a guy 2 months ago at a tourney event that we went too. The guy was stuck and didnt have the money. Claimed he would pay my friend the full amount. Well, up until Friday, my friend had saw him twice and hadnt been paid yet. Well, Friday, the guy that owed money, Won $500.00 from a different player at the poolhall, and it so happened that my buddy was down there. Can you believe that the guy that won money offered $100.00??? In a nutshell, my friend told him 250.00 was fine then, with another 50.00 down the road and be all square. People that gamble without money have issues, as well as people that RELY on gambling money to live.

I for one have a job, a family, and hobbies. Yes, I will gamble, and enjoy it, but I do not RELY on the money. Bottom line is, if I dont have it, I dont gamble it.

UWPoolGod

01-05-2004, 02:06 PM

Yeah I hardly gamble at all. I don't make all that much more than my bills so I can't go throwing the rent money away. Any money that I have gambled with has been tourney winnings. There are other people who have more confidence in my game than I do. Which isn't supposed to be. i feel that I am a decent player but lack the confidence to throw it up. I have been very selective with who and when I gamble. Which is a good thing I think. Not supposed to lose money. But if I was playing cheap cheap sets with a far better player it would be worth it for the lesson.

Fasteddy7

01-05-2004, 02:16 PM

I have done this many times but mostly with people i know. Usually when i know someone i dont ask them to put up stake money, we just play. I they get stuck too much, you bet, I will take their cue. I have never had anyone not pick their cue up within a few weeks. But as others had mentioned the best bet is to have them put up the money first (no pun intended). By the way, if you need a backer for thirty dollars you should not be gambling?

UWPoolGod

01-05-2004, 02:24 PM

As far as his backer goes, I think that he was just a friend willing to front his portion of the set. Two if my friends there also offered to stake me for the full amount and half the take against him, but I lost out on some money after I won a few weeks ago and decided not to go there.

As far as what someone else said about $2 games turning into a couple hundred..that is the truth. I have played a guy $5/rack over the night and ended up $140 ahead before he quit. With the stake not changing...you would think after the first 20 games behind he would quit. But hey they are from the sticks. Also, played a 3man ring game with $1 5ball and $2 9ball turn into a $100 loss for a player I know that I was playing with. I got $30 and the other guy got $70.

NBC-BOB

01-05-2004, 02:27 PM

It's alway's a good idea to have both players put up the cash before the match begins.Of cause if it's someone that you've played before and never had a problem then that's ok.

OnePocketChamp

01-05-2004, 02:44 PM

Welcome to the wonderful world of pool hall gambling, now this next statement will not be a shock to most "money players"---- Get ready, someday soon you will be stiffed!!!

If your opponent offers to hand over his cue until he can pay you, then by all means take it but then do what I have always done. Give him your telephone number and tell him to contact you within the next 30 days with the cash or make it plain to him that at the end of the time frame the cue is yours.
Sounds harsh but why have anymore tolerance than that for someone that gambles and has no money to pay-off with.

Popcorn

01-05-2004, 04:46 PM

You fell that if the guy owes you $100. you have a right to keep say a $500. cue if that is the case? Regardless how the debt occurred once you have agreed to take the cue, You have made a lone to the guy regarding the money. About a year ago I had a guy own me some rent money, about $900. He was a mechanic at a Pep Boys. He offered me to keep some of his tools. We put one of those big rolling toolboxes full of tools in my garage along with a bunch of other stuff he had till he could pay. He moved out at that point and went to stay with a friend. After like six months I had gotten no money from him and I called my lawyer to see what my rights were regarding the tools. It turned out if I sold the tools, I could not keep anything over and above the amount of the debt, (Tools worth around $4000. new) and without a real agreement I could actually end up owing him the entire replacement value of the tools if something happens to them, or I just gave them away. To make a long story short, I learned a lesson about taking someone's personal possessions to cover a debt. Their was more to this but that was the gist of it. I would say getting back to the cue, you may find your self in small claims court owing him money if something happens to that cue.

logixrat

01-05-2004, 07:58 PM

I understand the deal with the tools, but I don't think you would have much LEGAL rights in a scenario as described where illegal gambling is involved.

Sid_Vicious

01-05-2004, 08:28 PM

All this automatic answering to always post up...well I imagine that I agree in theory, but most of the gambling I see locally is cheap stuff, and it is also not really appropriate to be stacking up wads of money in broad daylight ahead of time and creating an obvious show, at least where I live. Dallas has it's gambling dens, they're just not flamboyant about it. I can just imagine the looks I'd get if I started asking players I gamble with to post for thirty bucks. If I had ever heard the guy was a bum, it'd be a different story, elsewise I feel posting is a bit overboard. If you get stiffed, then you just learned something about the guy.

If I were to find myself up $$$ a healthy amount while playing, or with an unknown player, I'd ask for cash before we proceeded further, but that's it...sid~~~been stiffed but not much, and like I said...I learned something about the stiff'er, and so does everyone I talk to from then on

UWPoolGod

01-06-2004, 09:48 AM

Well for an update...

...homedude never showed up last night so I'll give him a few weeks before I start doodling with his equipment. I'll try and get a pic of the cue in the next few days and maybe someone can I.D. what it is. I think it is a custom but a cue dealer said he had seen a cue like this before. Dark brown wood with checker-boarded brown and maple squares where the wrap would be, with the same brown buttcap..also some silver rings. The shaft doesn't match the ringwork but I may be able to have my maker match a shaft to it. Hit a few balls with it and it hit decent enough.

Has anyone tried the Kangaroo jumper cue? Didn't try that one. The case is a POS mock leather.

Don't suppose I'll see him, but one of his buddies might show back up.

Guess that's a great time to gamble. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RedHell

01-06-2004, 03:22 PM

Is the jury still out on that one.... ???

Is engaging in a friendly wager between to individual at a game of skill an illegal gambling ?!

My understanding is the bet between players are legal, the side bets from the rail aren't ?

Is there a lawyer in the room ?

woody_968

01-06-2004, 04:20 PM

I was thinking the same thing, I would bet it depends on what state you would be in. I dont know if it still is, but I thought it was CA that several years ago legalised poker as they saw it as a game of skill because the better player came out on top more times than not. I would be interested in knowing what states stand where on which issues /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cheesemouse

01-06-2004, 05:03 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Is the jury still out on that one.... ???

Is engaging in a friendly wager between to individual at a game of skill an illegal gambling ?!

My understanding is the bet between players are legal, the side bets from the rail aren't ?

Is there a lawyer in the room ? <hr /></blockquote>

Red,

I think the first big case involving a pool gambling debt that was brought to court and set a precedent was in the late 1970's. Two players (Brad Gowen&amp; Ken Dodd) brought a case against a guy from Seattle who lost like $14,000 playing against Brad. The guy wouldn't pay the gambling debt. The lawyer who represented Brad &amp; Ken was Harry Platuis, the infamous stakehorse from Seattle. The judge ruled that pool was a game of skill and the guy had to pay Brad but not Ken Dodd because Ken was just side betting on the match and not playing.

Ralph S.

01-06-2004, 08:46 PM

This has happened to me before. In one instance I was able to sell the cue after several weeks and doubled what was owed from the original wager. Ethically, I see no problem with this either. The other person should know what can happen, as they most likely have been in the position where they became the holder of a cue.

ras314

01-06-2004, 09:16 PM

Long time ago I got around $50 up on a guy. Said he was busted but would play for his cue against what he was down. Told me it was a Balabsuka with two shafts, meant nothing to me at the time. A little later I got married, quit pool and gave the cue away. Been kicking my rear ever since, specially since finding what they are worth lately.

Not a stiff, honest guy, but boy was I stupid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif