The SitePoint Forums have moved.

You can now find them here.
This forum is now closed to new posts, but you can browse existing content.
You can find out more information about the move and how to open a new account (if necessary) here.
If you get stuck you can get support by emailing forums@sitepoint.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Originally posted by Elledan Joe, could you be so kind to explain 'the meaning and value of life' to me, if you think that you know it better?

Maybe I can, and maybe I can't, not that you'd believe or listen to me anyway. I don't profess to know everything. It's something for us all to figure out on our own. But I can tell you what it isn't. Believing that we are all just a bunch of atoms and cells and that life is just a convient way of clumping them all together. Believing that we are here for our own self gain and making life convient for ourselves.

I do believe that human life is a right, not a privilege or convience. I believe that life is about bring joy and happyness, not momentary pleasure, to others along with finding it ourselves. That we should leave things better than when we found them. And abortion is none of this.

Abortion is a self centered, momentary pleasure that only brings greef and regret to all involved. Maybe not today, but someday.

My goodness - I leave for a few hours and some very crazy things are said.

Originally posted by Elledan To help confused Joe: A Human is a 'real' Human as soon as it can decide (rational) on its own life, something of which young children are clearly not capable of.

So a young child is not a real human with rights? If that's not what you're saying, then this is moot really...it's not an issue.

Originally posted by temis
Third, a woman does have rights that come before rights of an unborn baby. Like I said before, if you decide to get an abortion, its ok at early stages, but, per se, past 5 months it might be a problem... Being a woman, I dont want to be dictated what to do with my life. I want to be able to make choices. Call me selfish if you want. In some cases selfishness is good. Selflessness can lead to trouble.

You can make choices...the problem is too many people making choices, but not taking responsibility for them. Don't have sex if you're not ready. Everyone knows something can go wrong and a pregnancy can occur...don't be so reckless with such a serious thing, and this won't even be much of an issue.

Selfishness is almost never good...I think by defintion it is worrying about yourself *excessively*...though I'm too lazy/busy (not sure which) to look it up myself right now.

Originally posted by Elledan
There is already a huge population of Humans on this planet and I think that with more than 6 billion people this Earth is already stuffed enough.

Yeah, lots of humans...but we're not desperately in need of room. I also know you can't be suggesting that abortion is more justified than before since we have a lot of people being born...that is no reason whatsoever.

As for the whole "convienent that the pro-choicers were born"...it's similar to "Choose Life...Your Mother Did"...or other bumper stickers like that. Just reminding you all that you're probably glad you were not aborted.

Abortion can be used as a token of merci. It can save a child from having to suffer pains and/or inconveniences throughout his/her whole (short) life.

If it's used for that purpose it's perfect. Only if this tool is used to save a pregnant woman from having to take care for a child the rest of her life, I can't say it's a good solution.

I do not think that children are just 'things' that you can play around with, but neither do I think that you should allow people to unlimited 'produce' offspring since the Earth is limited on resources.

Originally posted by Elledan Abortion can be used as a token of merci. It can save a child from having to suffer pains and/or inconveniences throughout his/her whole (short) life.

If it's used for that purpose it's perfect. Only if this tool is used to save a pregnant woman from having to take care for a child the rest of her life, I can't say it's a good solution.

I do not think that children are just 'things' that you can play around with, but neither do I think that you should allow people to unlimited 'produce' offspring since the Earth is limited on resources.

The thought of limiting how many children a person can have is terrible and will not/should not happen. Out of the question.

It is not mercy...I'd say the child would be better off dead in only the rarest of circumstances, and I doubt it's the parent's job to determine that. The child has its own unique DNA and body, it IS a person...it's not a generic fetus that BECOMEs unique...it is right from the start. That alone makes it a human.

Yes, we keep re-producing...perhaps exploring ways to let ourselves move on. Limiting the population is not an option - the invasion of basic rights that would come with this are ridiculous and totally unacceptable...IMO.

Ya know Elledan, you have a good point. Heck, if it worked for Hitler, it's got to work now-a-day for us. Hey, and lets not forget about slavery when it was a white humans right to own blacks as property and do with them whatever a white person wanted.

Who ever we don't want or is thought of as useless and not human, lets just kill the *******s.

Originally posted by HotDog Ya know Elledan, you have a good point. Heck, if it worked for Hitler, it's got to work now-a-day for us. Hey, and lets not forget about slavery when it was a white humans right to own blacks as property and do with them whatever a white person wanted.

Who ever we don't want or is thought of as useless and not human, lets just kill the *******s.

God it sure feels great to know we've come such a long way!

I didn't imply any of those... accusations and I find your behavior most offending.

Since I can't hold a normal discussion with you around, I won't post in this thread anymore.

Since, as you say, the earth is limited in resources and there is already a huge population of humans on this planet, why don't you kill yourself to make room for the rest of us? That would be a token of mercy on your part, right?

This was the same reasoning used to keep slavery in place, by saying that the blacks were less than a full human being (i.e. 3/4 of a human being) and it is merciful for the slaveholder's to allow them to exist, albeit in bondage, since they are not really human beings, are unable to think, weak and only good for labor. In other words, might makes right. I have the power, so I have the right to give you life or give you death. Except, now, it is the woman who holds that power over the innocent child rather than the slaveholder.

A woman does have responsibility if she is to get pregnant, that is how it is, pregnancy is not something new. This responsibility has existed for thousands of years, no individual, whether man or woman should have the 'choice' to kill an innocent child.

If the mother's life is at risk, then we are to use our mind. We do not have to say the mother's life is more important than the child's life, or the child's life is more important than the father's life or whatever scenerio. If the mother die's then what happens to the child? Is it possible to save the child or will the child die? Yes, it is possible for us to save the child, we do as best as we can. If the mother's life is at risk if the child remains in her stomach, then we must do what we can to save her life, and the child's life. If it means, taking the child out of her stomach, then we do so. It does not necessarily mean the child instantly dies, the child still can be saved. Innocent human life is sacred, and should be treated as such.

Quran:

[bani Isra'il 17:31] You shall not kill your children due to fear of
poverty. We provide for them, as well as for you. Killing them is a
gross offense.
[bani Isra'il 17:32] You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross
sin, and an evil behavior.
[bani Isra'il 17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has
made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed
unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus,
he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be
helped.

[al-An`am 6:151] Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has
really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him.
You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from
fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not
commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has
made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His
commandments to you, that you may understand."

--------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Elledan Abortion can be used as a token of merci. It can save a child from having to suffer pains and/or inconveniences throughout his/her whole (short) life.

If it's used for that purpose it's perfect. Only if this tool is used to save a pregnant woman from having to take care for a child the rest of her life, I can't say it's a good solution.

I do not think that children are just 'things' that you can play around with, but neither do I think that you should allow people to unlimited 'produce' offspring since the Earth is limited on resources.

I'd like to point out that no pro-choice advocate here has been able to pinpoint the moment a fetus becomes a human...or the moment a child should be given equal rights...not to my surprise, of course.

I'd also like to point out, to my fellow pro-lifers, that arguing with Elledan on this subject is pointless. He has said in the past that he does favor things like breeding according to health and other such things...and now, of course, population control.

Originally posted by HotDog Ya know Elledan, you have a good point. Heck, if it worked for Hitler, it's got to work now-a-day for us. Hey, and lets not forget about slavery when it was a white humans right to own blacks as property and do with them whatever a white person wanted.

Who ever we don't want or is thought of as useless and not human, lets just kill the *******s.

God it sure feels great to know we've come such a long way!

I didn't imply any of those... accusations and I find your behavior most offending.

Since I can't hold a normal discussion with you around, I won't post in this thread anymore.

Goodnight.

My point is this, throughout history, different human beings have been seen or considered as "non-human" and therefore were treated as such. People who support abortion do not view an unborn baby as a human being and there treat him or her as such.

I do not in anyway imply that you or anyone here supports the Holocaust or slavery. But what I do mean to imply is that there is very little difference in the philosophy of the thinking of back then towards the jews and slaves, and that towards an unborn baby and abortion. And to think of abortion as a means to control world population is nothing short of absurd and crazy. Weither you want to believe it or not is beside the point. A human is a human, weither he or she is black or white, jew or christian, born or unborn. It's a fact of life.

I appoligize for offending you. And I'm sorry. I do not appoligize for standing up for what's morally right.

Originally posted by mjames86 If the parents of the baby don't want the baby, they are likely to NOT or POORLY care for the child, resulting in the child having a corrupt and possibly violent childhood, which, could in effect, make him/her a bad person when he grows up. No one on this earth is born a "bad" person, but they transform to this from things that happen to them, especially if bad things happen in their child hood. Now, I'm not saying all young couples who have a baby are going to abuse their child, but the chance is greater, since they don't want the child.

A small percentage of children with bad childhoods grow up to lead a bad life...and virtually none of them wish they were dead/never born. That is amazingly rare and is not up to the parents.

Originally posted by mjames86
Why make abortion illegal? For those who don't believe in the ethics of it, they don't have to do it, but others do. People who so strongly are against abortion should have to deal with it. They can do what they want, but others may feel differently.

In case it isn't obvious, we feel it should be illegal because it's the mass murder of children.

Originally posted by mjames86
Elledan made an excellent point earlier about animals relating to this topic. I personally can shed some light on this. Our family dog, whom we so dearly loved, had a tumor on her and it kept spreading. If we decided to keep her alive, she would suffer and be through chronic pain. Even though she probably could of lived with the tumors and cancer, we decided to put her to sleep.

How is this different from abortion? It's the same kind of thing. We did what was best for her and I'm sure she is glad that we did looking down on us from doggy heaven.

That was a terrible point! It's a DOG! Not a human! Animals are living beings, but are on an entirely different level...to the level where we kill them for food - don't shy away, I know you've eaten your share of meat.

Originally posted by mjames86
In conclusion, I feel it's best to do what's best for any living being, whether it be abortion or living

That's right...and as statistics show, the overwhelming majority of children, bad childhood or not, do not wish to be dead, and are glad to be alive.

I ask you the same question, one that no one else can answer: at what second does it become wrong to abort the baby? I'd love an answer...no one has given one yet.

This will be the last post in this thread, I'll just make an exception for libanis.

You're talking nonsense, that's all I've got to say.

Is it a bad thing to try to look in the future, try to predict how the Human population will grow and based on that take action?

Is it evil to keep the Human population healthy and prospering?

A sidenote:

If we don't do anything, the human population will get too big for this planet and billions of people will die of starvation until the size of the Human population will be within acceptable numbers.
The same thing happens in the Wild Nature, so... what do we chose: the easy, painless way, or the long, hard and painfull way?

What kind of logic is that? Because, they 'may' end up under bad circumstances we should condemn them to death or imply that they would be better off dead? There are many human beings whom have lived under the worst circumstances and conditions and turned out well. What message are you sending to these people? That there life isn't worth garbage because they live in a single parent home, in an orphanage or whatever you deem an undesirable life?

Originally posted by mjames86 If the parents of the baby don't want the baby, they are likely to NOT or POORLY care for the child, resulting in the child having a corrupt and possibly violent childhood, which, could in effect, make him/her a bad person when he grows up. No one on this earth is born a "bad" person, but they transform to this from things that happen to them, especially if bad things happen in their child hood. Now, I'm not saying all young couples who have a baby are going to abuse their child, but the chance is greater, since they don't want the child.

No, it is not bad to plan for the future, however to sacrifice innocent human life just so you can live comfortably should not in anyway be an option. You can shift the subject or make excuses or use deception yet the result will be the same. Our earth is not small, the whole of humanity can fit in the state of Texas with enough room to live an adequate life. There have been many excuses used to support the killing of innocent life, just as there have been many excuses in support of slavery.

If you wish to plan for some form of population control, then bring moral teachings and shame back into the public forum. People need to learn responsibility, do not have sex outside of marriage, do not commit adultry, do not follow your lusts, show restraint. It should be taboo as it once was, taught and instilled since early childhood. If you decide to do those things, then there should be a certain level of shame surrounding it as there are when we talk about wife beaters.

Originally posted by Elledan This will be the last post in this thread, I'll just make an exception for libanis.

You're talking nonsense, that's all I've got to say.

Is it a bad thing to try to look in the future, try to predict how the Human population will grow and based on that take action?

Is it evil to keep the Human population healthy and prospering?

A sidenote:

If we don't do anything, the human population will get too big for this planet and billions of people will die of starvation until the size of the Human population will be within acceptable numbers.
The same thing happens in the Wild Nature, so... what do we chose: the easy, painless way, or the long, hard and painfull way?

I have lived a wonderful life. I am happily married with a beatiful wife and a beautiful daughter. I can't imagine being any happier. I'm glad my dad wasn't aborted.

My dad was born to two alcoholic parents. His dad died way before I was ever born, and his mom died when I was young. The most interesting thing I remember about his mother was that she only called her son when she wanted money. She was also addicted to prescription drugs.

When my dad and his brother were small grade-school children, their parents took them along when they went to porno movies. His dad often threatened him with a loaded hand gun, and beat him even more often than that.

My dad loves life. In spite of his awful childhood, he worked hard and made good grades in school. He got a full scholarship to college, and he worked both on the campus maintenance crew and for Pizza Hut while taking classes.

He and my mother have spent the past couple of weeks vacationing in Hawaii. They have four grandchildren and one on the way.

Originally posted by TWTCommish I'd like to point out that no pro-choice advocate here has been able to pinpoint the moment a fetus becomes a human...or the moment a child should be given equal rights...not to my surprise, of course.

I'd also like to point out, to my fellow pro-lifers, that arguing with Elledan on this subject is pointless. He has said in the past that he does favor things like breeding according to health and other such things...and now, of course, population control.

I have been able to pinpoint it, but apparently you didn't read what I said.

As for 'equal rights', the constitution only guarantees rights to citizens and since citizenship is determined by where you are born, then a fetus has no rights.

Originally posted by LuZeR One more thing: if I had been aborted I WOULD NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE! and neither would anybody else.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Please!!! Like you really don't care you weren't killed off by your mother. Give me a freaking break!!!

Whoa hot dog. Calm down boy. I'm not dumb and I'd appreciate not being called dumb since it's not me that is misunderstanding. If I had been aborted I'd be dead and wouldn't know any better. Get the point? Has an aborted fetus ever told you they wish they hadn't been aborted?

I'm not going to respond to this thread any more since it's obviously just turning into name calling.