Atheistist Atheist of Atheistdom - Think Atheist2015-08-02T22:31:26Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/atheistist-atheist-of-atheistdom?commentId=1982180%3AComment%3A1204587&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAn alternative point could be…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-07:1982180:Comment:12054622012-11-07T02:52:35.234ZJames Coxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JamesCox
<p>An alternative point could be made. Tragedy can be reframed by theist's as a test or trial for the soul. The term 'double think' then comes up. If the theist can remap around a tragedy using parts of the ideology, then there would be no reason to de-convert.</p>
<p>Many members of my family did this after a death in our family, but mother seemed to find her exit, while my father only reduced his commitment without a de-conversion. As a nieve child at the time, I attempted prayer, as a way to…</p>
<p>An alternative point could be made. Tragedy can be reframed by theist's as a test or trial for the soul. The term 'double think' then comes up. If the theist can remap around a tragedy using parts of the ideology, then there would be no reason to de-convert.</p>
<p>Many members of my family did this after a death in our family, but mother seemed to find her exit, while my father only reduced his commitment without a de-conversion. As a nieve child at the time, I attempted prayer, as a way to call upon 'god' to save our sister from death, but found no responce from that 'loving being'. I remember the little one liners that other family members used to encourage the rest of us. 'God called her home', 'God has other plans for her', 'She has gone to a better place', adnausium. Sister died when she was six, after spending most of her short life in a children's hospital.</p>
<p>It was rather clear that my youthful attempts at prayer were of limited utility. Another posting/blog here concerning being 'mad at god' could be possible. In my context, if prayer is of no utility, and the death of an innocent child happens, what does this say about an asserted existence of 'god'? Surely, given the magical powers of 'god', I was not asking much. I consider this as a valid first indication of non-existence of 'god', and a reduction of standing from an 'actual being' to a 'human concept'. My knowing that '2 + 2=4' is of greater power and utility than the concept of 'god'.</p>
<p>It is possible that my bounching between two polls, a very troubled and uncommited neo-theist, and atheist-humanist indicates a search for a last datum. As I stand before and experience the wonders of nature and thought, I think I get a taste of the mind state of theologins or mystics and the scientific viewpoint. This might be the best I can do. </p> Hey Blaine,
I can see this vi…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12052582012-11-06T17:29:34.325ZKir Komrikhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/KirKomrik
<p>Hey Blaine,</p>
<p>I can see this view for someone who has never experienced profound love but its harder to see for those who have (which is not to say that it can't be the case). When someone <em>really</em> loves you you're never alone, you do not live alone and you won't die alone.</p>
<p>- kk</p>
<p>Hey Blaine,</p>
<p>I can see this view for someone who has never experienced profound love but its harder to see for those who have (which is not to say that it can't be the case). When someone <em>really</em> loves you you're never alone, you do not live alone and you won't die alone.</p>
<p>- kk</p> I think you are right. They h…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12053512012-11-06T17:28:15.103ZEmperor Miloshttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/MilosCakovan
<p>I think you are right. They have no problem with professing ignorance about many things. But, when the topic is god, then the attitude changes. I think, at least in the case of my friend, the particular religion really drills in the fact that questioning the holy spirit is the worst sin you can commit. Thus saying that you could be wrong about god is anathema to them.</p>
<p>I think you are right. They have no problem with professing ignorance about many things. But, when the topic is god, then the attitude changes. I think, at least in the case of my friend, the particular religion really drills in the fact that questioning the holy spirit is the worst sin you can commit. Thus saying that you could be wrong about god is anathema to them.</p> Hey Milos,
I remember sitting…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12053502012-11-06T17:21:34.415ZKir Komrikhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/KirKomrik
<p>Hey Milos,</p>
<blockquote><p>I remember sitting in on a debate/argument two of my friends had. One is atheist, and the other extremely religious. The religious one, for over 3 hours, refused to accept even a .0000001% chance that he could be wrong in his belief.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is so ironic. As I read that my first thought was that this is a sign of brainwashing. Then I read your last paragraph ;-)</p>
<blockquote><p>No matter what evidence the former put forward, there was no…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Hey Milos,</p>
<blockquote><p>I remember sitting in on a debate/argument two of my friends had. One is atheist, and the other extremely religious. The religious one, for over 3 hours, refused to accept even a .0000001% chance that he could be wrong in his belief.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is so ironic. As I read that my first thought was that this is a sign of brainwashing. Then I read your last paragraph ;-)</p>
<blockquote><p>No matter what evidence the former put forward, there was no compromise in the latter. The thing I often find with theists, is that they seem to be terrified of the idea that we just don't know. So many absolutely refuse to admit ignorance about any topic involving their faith.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Do you think that its fear of saying "I don't know" or just a resistance to saying no one, including god, "knows"? My expeirence has been that adherents seem okay with accepting the fact that they don't know something ... as long as they can put it in "Gods" court and say, well, God knows but I don't. They seem enamored with the idea that there is privileged knowledge out there known only to the gods. Weird.</p>
<p>- kk</p> Exactly. But that is the diff…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12052472012-11-06T16:28:19.123ZEmperor Miloshttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/MilosCakovan
<p>Exactly. But that is the difficult part.</p>
<p>I remember sitting in on a debate/argument two of my friends had. One is atheist, and the other extremely religious. The religious one, for over 3 hours, refused to accept even a .0000001% chance that he could be wrong in his belief.</p>
<p>No matter what evidence the former put forward, there was no compromise in the latter. The thing I often find with theists, is that they seem to be terrified of the idea that we just don't know. So many…</p>
<p>Exactly. But that is the difficult part.</p>
<p>I remember sitting in on a debate/argument two of my friends had. One is atheist, and the other extremely religious. The religious one, for over 3 hours, refused to accept even a .0000001% chance that he could be wrong in his belief.</p>
<p>No matter what evidence the former put forward, there was no compromise in the latter. The thing I often find with theists, is that they seem to be terrified of the idea that we just don't know. So many absolutely refuse to admit ignorance about any topic involving their faith.</p>
<p>The debate basically ended up with the religious friend saying how anyone who doesn't believe is stupid and will go to hell, and then he pretty much used the 4 year old's winning strategy of "lalalalalalala I'm not listening! Laalalala!"</p>
<p>And that's where what Jessica said comes into play. If you are brought up believing a certain thing, and grew up in an environment where everyone you interact with believes in that thing as well, it becomes extremely difficult to rationalize against your belief, and extremely easy to dismiss the beliefs of others. Even when proof is presented, it becomes instinct to dismiss the proof, or find a way to make it look like it works in your favor, or resort to childish insults and name calling.</p>
<p>For example, during the particular discussion i mentioned above, AJ (Atheist friend) asked Andrew (Religious friend) to explain how thinking about god makes him feel. Then AJ wrote down everything Andrew said, went online and looked up the feelings and symptoms associated with brainwashing of prisoners during WW2, in cults, etc. And his feelings towards worshiping god, went hand in hand with the symptoms of brainwashing. Yet that was dismissed as "stupid and wrong."</p> Hey Milos,
Yep, and if you ca…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12052452012-11-06T16:25:16.259ZKir Komrikhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/KirKomrik
<p>Hey Milos,</p>
<p>Yep, and if you can get them to think sincerely about that for a minute its obvious whats going on - they're just following the herd like everyone else is and which in turn strongly suggests that they're beliefs are a fraud.</p>
<p>- kk</p>
<p>Hey Milos,</p>
<p>Yep, and if you can get them to think sincerely about that for a minute its obvious whats going on - they're just following the herd like everyone else is and which in turn strongly suggests that they're beliefs are a fraud.</p>
<p>- kk</p> I think it goes back to in ma…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12053452012-11-06T16:18:55.258ZEmperor Miloshttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/MilosCakovan
<blockquote><p>I think it goes back to in many cases our up bringing and life circumstances.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That makes a lot of sense. I've had many debates with theists, where I would mention something along those lines, and for some reason they refuse to accept the fact that if they were born in a Muslim country, they would most likely be Muslim, or Buddhist in a Buddhist country, etc.</p>
<p>Often I get the reply: "NO! NO! You're wrong. I am &lt;insert religion&gt; because &lt;insert…</p>
<blockquote><p>I think it goes back to in many cases our up bringing and life circumstances.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That makes a lot of sense. I've had many debates with theists, where I would mention something along those lines, and for some reason they refuse to accept the fact that if they were born in a Muslim country, they would most likely be Muslim, or Buddhist in a Buddhist country, etc.</p>
<p>Often I get the reply: "NO! NO! You're wrong. I am &lt;insert religion&gt; because &lt;insert religion&gt; is the only true religion! It wouldn't matter where I was born or raised. I just know it!"</p> Hey Matt,
You know, that's fu…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12050532012-11-06T16:11:41.336ZKir Komrikhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/KirKomrik
<p>Hey Matt,</p>
<p>You know, that's funny. This is another thing I hear often from atheists; that their families were not all that close-knit. Interesting.</p>
<p>- kk</p>
<p>Hey Matt,</p>
<p>You know, that's funny. This is another thing I hear often from atheists; that their families were not all that close-knit. Interesting.</p>
<p>- kk</p> Hey Kris,
Thats the nice thin…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12051202012-11-06T08:08:09.693ZKir Komrikhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/KirKomrik
<p>Hey Kris,</p>
<p>Thats the nice thing about being a freethinker, eh? I couldn't agree more.</p>
<p>- kk</p>
<p>Hey Kris,</p>
<p>Thats the nice thing about being a freethinker, eh? I couldn't agree more.</p>
<p>- kk</p> Hey,
Kids ask funny questions…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-11-06:1982180:Comment:12052962012-11-06T07:09:52.839ZKir Komrikhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/KirKomrik
<p>Hey,</p>
<blockquote><p>Kids ask funny questions.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>lol, yep.</p>
<blockquote><p>Yes, it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't worry about it that much at the time because well, my dad freaking died.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm really sorry to hear that. There couldn't be a worse time to be disappointed like that. But that supports what I mentioned ealrier, that people tend to deconvert during a life crisis.</p>
<blockquote><p>Apparently, this hurt him very deeply that…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Hey,</p>
<blockquote><p>Kids ask funny questions.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>lol, yep.</p>
<blockquote><p>Yes, it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't worry about it that much at the time because well, my dad freaking died.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm really sorry to hear that. There couldn't be a worse time to be disappointed like that. But that supports what I mentioned ealrier, that people tend to deconvert during a life crisis.</p>
<blockquote><p>Apparently, this hurt him very deeply that I didn't care enough about my "immortal soul" or something</p>
</blockquote>
<p>You think he was power tripping? Some people get off on converting or deconverting people because it makes them feel powerful. As regards deconversion, that misses the point of it, though. Its not about the deconverter and you're friend should have had that attitude (as a <em>converter</em>). A lot of people turn and walk away when I talk to them but that's part of the numbers game. Adherents are victims of abuse who need compassion and empathy and I always try to remember that.</p>
<p>- kk</p>