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""

6. Real Battles- Large scale combat won't be the total chaos most MMO players are used to. PFO will make use of a formation system that gives groups significant bonuses for fighting in formation and coordinating their ability usage.

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Originally posted by Robokapp""

6. Real Battles- Large scale combat won't be the total chaos most MMO players are used to. PFO will make use of a formation system that gives groups significant bonuses for fighting in formation and coordinating their ability usage.

""

What?

wh...what is this ?

like buff auras or ...

my hope is a detection system in party that determines location (using the mini map type system) and rewards the group with certain buffs based on composition and proximal deployment.

how its going to work i have no idea. unless collision detection is both on and rather broad for front line fighters i dont see much way of keeping formation as soon as fighting gets to melee range.

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Originally posted by steamtank

Originally posted by Robokapp""

6. Real Battles- Large scale combat won't be the total chaos most MMO players are used to. PFO will make use of a formation system that gives groups significant bonuses for fighting in formation and coordinating their ability usage.

""

What?

wh...what is this ?

like buff auras or ...

my hope is a detection system in party that determines location (using the mini map type system) and rewards the group with certain buffs based on composition and proximal deployment.

how its going to work i have no idea. unless collision detection is both on and rather broad for front line fighters i dont see much way of keeping formation as soon as fighting gets to melee range.

the only MMO where fighting in close packs is done and relevant is EVE where you have 'drake anchor", "ahac anchor" and so on.

but...in eve you also sometimes spread out a lot when you suspect enemy will use bombers.

as i read the lines above I thought that bomer-like heavy-aoe groups will be extremely powerful if you're forced to play collapsed together. I need to know more about their combat but it raised an alarm. forcing a group together makes AOE hard-counter an obvious choice.

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Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by steamtank

Originally posted by Robokapp""

6. Real Battles- Large scale combat won't be the total chaos most MMO players are used to. PFO will make use of a formation system that gives groups significant bonuses for fighting in formation and coordinating their ability usage.

""

What?

wh...what is this ?

like buff auras or ...

my hope is a detection system in party that determines location (using the mini map type system) and rewards the group with certain buffs based on composition and proximal deployment.

how its going to work i have no idea. unless collision detection is both on and rather broad for front line fighters i dont see much way of keeping formation as soon as fighting gets to melee range.

the only MMO where fighting in close packs is done and relevant is EVE where you have 'drake anchor", "ahac anchor" and so on.

but...in eve you also sometimes spread out a lot when you suspect enemy will use bombers.

as i read the lines above I thought that bomer-like heavy-aoe groups will be extremely powerful if you're forced to play collapsed together. I need to know more about their combat but it raised an alarm. forcing a group together makes AOE hard-counter an obvious choice.

1) Allow the server to treat formations of players as single-objects for the server load, I believe is important/intentional.

2) Each formation confers contributions to the individuals in the formation, so different formations and different combinations of players acting in formation influence it's defence and offence capabilities.

I imagine the movement and positioning will influence the effectiveness and obviously drive zergs of players like a hot knife through butter!

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...so... what I am imagining is that say a party of six accepts formation command by a cleric at the inn, before they set out for a dungeon. The party is a rogue, a wizard, the cleric-commander, a paladin, and two fighters.

The cleric-commander gets a new bank of icons with six multicolored dots or squares, each dot colored according to class. Upon creation of the formation but before combat initiation the commander defines who goes where. So the cleric-commander puts himself in the back where he can be protected to heal, the wizard to his right and the rogue to his left. He puts the paladin in the center of the fron tline flanked by the two fighters. This will be the default formation they will initially take if beset by hostiles. Other options might be a six-pointed defensive star with everyone facing out from a central point, or a five pointed star with their wizard in the center or what have you. Another might be echelon -left/right, or perhaps phalanx (wedge). In anticipation of having to fight in a corredor he has one in a column of twos. Finally he has one where the rogue is to flank, so he can take advantage of some rogue backstabbing advantages.

He sets up these various formations as alt-function key assignments, The wizard and cleric set up their ready spells, and the party leaves the Inn or camp for a destination dungeon and they begin to fast-travel.

Along their route a party of six bandits waits in ambush, and as our party fast-travels the road the bandits spring their trap.

The party appears in the road where they have been ambushed in default formation which is less than optimal if the bandits have set up in an enfilading fire configuration where they can fire their crossbows at the party from all sides. The cleric has the option of changing formation to a defensive star or charging one side of the ambush in the current formation. Changing formation would take precious time so he decides to charge whichever side of the bandit formation the party is facing leaving their most vulnrable backs open but potentially reducing the offensive strength of the bandits by one opponent who is quickly overcome. To do so the cleric-commander is the only one who actually uses his WASD movement keys. Once the focused bandit is down he wheels the whole party to their next objective, an adjascent bandit, and also changes formation to send the Rogue to the right flank away from the greatest threat of missile fire from the bandits' remaining positions to set the rogue up for a backstab opportunity. The wizard decides to return fire casting magic missile. Because the wizard (I assume) must stand still to effectively cast his spell his action stops the rest of the party other than the rogue (already in motion) for his cast.

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Even if they don't make the 1 million mark on KS it does give them something to approach other methods for alternate funding with. It gives them the right to say look what regular people who have no personal stake in this project are willing to put up just to put them into a faster development. If the CEO is as good as claimed in the first place he can use this to pump money in other ways.

I think it was Origins of Malu (?) who ended up cancelling their own kickstarter after finding alternate funding and then also decided to reward the pledgers with some of the rewards they would have gotten if KS had gone through. I could see that happening especially with something that is an established IP in it's own right like Pathfinder. Personally I had only heard of it in vague terms before this MMO project but I also never paid a whole lot of attention to P&P systems.

As of right now PO is at - who knows they might actually get a flood of existing pledges go further into it while adding more new ones and hit the goal:

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Originally posted by BlueMountain

...so... what I am imagining is that say a party of six accepts formation command by a cleric at the inn, before they set out for a dungeon. The party is a rogue, a wizard, the cleric-commander, a paladin, and two fighters.

The cleric-commander gets a new bank of icons with six multicolored dots or squares, each dot colored according to class. Upon creation of the formation but before combat initiation the commander defines who goes where. So the cleric-commander puts himself in the back where he can be protected to heal, the wizard to his right and the rogue to his left. He puts the paladin in the center of the fron tline flanked by the two fighters. This will be the default formation they will initially take if beset by hostiles. Other options might be a six-pointed defensive star with everyone facing out from a central point, or a five pointed star with their wizard in the center or what have you. Another might be echelon -left/right, or perhaps phalanx (wedge). In anticipation of having to fight in a corredor he has one in a column of twos. Finally he has one where the rogue is to flank, so he can take advantage of some rogue backstabbing advantages.

He sets up these various formations as alt-function key assignments, The wizard and cleric set up their ready spells, and the party leaves the Inn or camp for a destination dungeon and they begin to fast-travel.

Along their route a party of six bandits waits in ambush, and as our party fast-travels the road the bandits spring their trap.

The party appears in the road where they have been ambushed in default formation which is less than optimal if the bandits have set up in an enfilading fire configuration where they can fire their crossbows at the party from all sides. The cleric has the option of changing formation to a defensive star or charging one side of the ambush in the current formation. Changing formation would take precious time so he decides to charge whichever side of the bandit formation the party is facing leaving their most vulnrable backs open but potentially reducing the offensive strength of the bandits by one opponent who is quickly overcome. To do so the cleric-commander is the only one who actually uses his WASD movement keys. Once the focused bandit is down he wheels the whole party to their next objective, an adjascent bandit, and also changes formation to send the Rogue to the right flank away from the greatest threat of missile fire from the bandits' remaining positions to set the rogue up for a backstab opportunity. The wizard decides to return fire casting magic missile. Because the wizard (I assume) must stand still to effectively cast his spell his action stops the rest of the party other than the rogue (already in motion) for his cast.

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The formations are going to be tricky, mainly because you are starting out on something pretty complex and new for MMO's without much history of systems that have been tried before to draw on, but if they are done well they could make this game, and possibly solve the eternal problem of zergs being more-or-less unstoppable in MMO PvP.

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What is listed there would probably make this one of the best games ever made. It's a tall order so I'm not holding my breath. All just sounds a little TOO good.

It could also be really simple. For instance if the game detects you have a party member withing 5 yards to your right and to your left, you get increased damage absorption or decreased chance of being hit.

Again, this is one of my problems with following games very early. These guys barely have a working demo out now (and it is pretty bad)... thinking about them adding anything revolutionary is, as of right now, a dream.

I am following this game under the premise that it will be like UO, with better graphics, and a guild and skill system more similar to EVE. Just throwing those things together, which have already all been done, is enough to make a great game.

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What is listed there would probably make this one of the best games ever made. It's a tall order so I'm not holding my breath. All just sounds a little TOO good.

It could also be really simple. For instance if the game detects you have a party member withing 5 yards to your right and to your left, you get increased damage absorption or decreased chance of being hit.

Again, this is one of my problems with following games very early. These guys barely have a working demo out now (and it is pretty bad)... thinking about them adding anything revolutionary is, as of right now, a dream.

I am following this game under the premise that it will be like UO, with better graphics, and a guild and skill system more similar to EVE. Just throwing those things together, which have already all been done, is enough to make a great game.

Spot on. They're reaching for some great ideas: Plenty of which could easily fall short. But the fact they're gunning for it without the threat of appealing to everyone and no-one to pay off a massive dev budget; and their various backgrounds with roots in the PnP rpgs - I think it's worth supporting to see if players/devs can make it happen.

The formations in particular hinges on how fun they can make it for individuals. But the idea that it could help with the server load is a solid place to start from AND resolve the zerg problem all in one - I think there's some players out there who'd like nothing more than to simulate battle strategies, if it could be taken to that level and if it really is a TEAM effort, think it could be satisfying for all to form some sort of chain of command and orchestrate a successful victory under terms of war.

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Mine was speculation. Speculation is easy. I was just trying to forecast one way that what they have suggested could be realized. I am interested in their making the game 'right', so naturally it sounds too good to be true: I was describing something like an ideal, based on minimal hints the developer left open.

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Not a big fan of that EvE skill training. So basically I do nothing except to be online to advance? Doesn't sound too exciting. I don't mind grinding at least I'm doing something. Also how is PvE more meaningful if you don't have to do anything to advance? I imagine killing NPC's has to give you some kind of character progression/reward? I suppose as long as you do get something from killing mobs it wouldn't matter too much that skill training involves just being online.

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Originally posted by Mardukk

Not a big fan of that EvE skill training. So basically I do nothing except to be online to advance? Doesn't sound too exciting. I don't mind grinding at least I'm doing something. Also how is PvE more meaningful if you don't have to do anything to advance? I imagine killing NPC's has to give you some kind of character progression/reward? I suppose as long as you do get something from killing mobs it wouldn't matter too much that skill training involves just being online.

Oh I don't know it will be as bad as that, but othr hand the game isn't going to supply your imagination for you either. For a change.

You don't have to even be online for experience to accrue, so you don't even have to be online to advance. I understand training of actual skills your experience qualitfies you for will be something you purchase. But 'something to do'? If it is sandbox you get to figure out what to do. It isn't, for once, a ride on rails at Six Flags it is instead what you and other players create. The game provides you with the tools and abilities you need to create your own story in the game, but it is up to you to create that story. And it really shouldn't be all that hard to craft your own tales when you can cast spells like fireball or gather a team to crush a hobgoblin encampment. Plus there is to be dynamic content such as goblin invasions and the like to defend your player-built settlement from. And there is also themepark-like places, such as the emerald spire 'superdungeon', each level of which is designed by a different author, some of whom are pretty famous, like Mike Stackpole (Mechwarrior) and Ed Greenwood (Forgotten Realms).

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Sounds to good to be true and often times when it comes down to indie developers that is all to true. If they can deliver on even half these ideals and still have high production quality I'll give it a shot but if it turns into another horrible character/animation/gfx experience I'll pass.

Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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One of the PFO community members wrote this up and thought it would be worth posting here to give people some more insight into PFO.

Pathfinder Online is a fantasy sandbox MMO by Goblinworks based on the Pathfinder tabletop game. It uses a unique process called "Crowdforging" to determine what features are implemented in the game, in what order.

Here is a brief list of some of the highlights of this game:

1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training, but time-based training means you always get full value from your purchased game time whether you're casual or 'hardcore', an adventurer or crafter, or one who enjoys a lot of roleplaying chat or one who spends much of their time in combat.

2. No Classes- Unlike other games that give you a narrow range of abilities as you train your class, in Pathfinder you gain levels in different Roles based off what you have trained.

3. Player Structures- Build your own homes, taverns, farms, and even cities! The Pathfinder Online world will be filled with places players can use to build and customize their own homes, businesses and communities.

4. Freedom of Allegiance- Unlike games that give you a few factions to pick from like Alliance vs. Horde, in Pathfinder Online you can join a vast array of organizations run by players, create your own organization, or even be a lone wolf! Fight for your friends, your ideals, power, profits, or personal freedom. The choice is yours. The alliances, the betrayals, crushing defeats and glorious victories are all real, meaningful, and player-driven.

5. More Than A Gankfest- Unlike other Open World PVP MMO's currently on the market, Pathfinder Online actively discourages meaningless PVP. A meaningful alignment system that actually offers mechanical advantages to lawful and good aligned organizations, and a functional bounty system that allows the player to choose which players and organizations can collect the bounties they set discourages random and meaningless killing. Beyond this, the admins are taking a hard stance against 'griefing', in which players specifically seek to ruin the experience of other players, often through using game mechanics in ways that weren't intended. Griefing in PFO can be a bannable offence.

6. Real Battles- Large scale combat won't be the total chaos most MMO players are used to. PFO will make use of a formation system that gives groups significant bonuses for fighting in formation and coordinating their ability usage.

7. Less Tedious Crafting- Crafting won't be done by sitting and watching your character create the same recipe over and over. First you build the structure you need for the kind of crafting you want to do, like a sawmill, bakery, or smithy. Then you fill out work orders that your NPC subordinates execute for you. Meanwhile, you can go do other things, or later in the game's development there may be activities you can do to help the process along. PFO will also launch with both traditional resource harvesting and camp-based harvesting.

8. More Meaningful PVE- NPCs aren't all just sitting there in groups which never move, never change in size, and respawn every few minutes. There will be random NPC infestations that escalate in severity if not dealt with. For instance, a goblin camp left undealt with may turn into a goblin tribe that begins attacking your harvesting camps. Leave dragons, vampires, or giants alone long enough and they may attack your town. This creates a need to work together to deal with these threats and generates demand for players who train abilities specialized for hunting NPC types like vampire hunters and dragon slayers.

9. All Players are Useful- This won't be like games where a new player has 49 health and a veteran has 49,000. The attacks from that new player won't automatically miss the veteran. A new player will be weaker, but still able to make a meaningful contribution to combat. As a sandbox where group sizes aren't limited, this means all players are useful, and don't have to segregate themselves by level.

10. Trade is Meaningful- In Pathfinder Online players must manually transport items to their intended destination. Most shops are player-run, and there will be goods more abundant in or even exclusive to certain regions. Merchants, traders, and even auctioneers are all viable professions.

I got an akward nerd boner reading this...

Sorry....

This is it for me.

No rat race to endgame then bitching about how another class killed you and so they are OP.

No penalty for being a no lifer and no penalty for having an active life, all are the same.

A system that doesnt have the game being all bloodthristy pvpers, where being a normal gamer is rewarded and pvpers pay for their crimes (im a pvper btw) I think the perfect balance of pvper gankers to normal gamers needs to be something like 60%+ normal 40%- ganker for the game not to be a suckfest. Was an issue with games like darkfall. You NEED carebears in the game, otherwise pvp sucks, you need there to be a reason to play without pvp being the sole focus as to why you login every day. You still need to have that option to go on a muderous rampage, or kill someone whos annoying in chat, or enemy to your clan ect. Or even being a general pain to play near (people will poor gaming manners deserve special fatalities in game btw)

The pve system of "deal with them or they deal with you" seems interesting, however i can see pve griefing...as in farming someones mob spawns because you know they are waiting for it to escalate to farm the good mobs or something...either way its different and i like it. Also, i like FARMING...not growing crops, but the ancient RPG act of farming mobs for loot, so long as the drops are interesting and usefull...this game sounds like it has that.

This to me looks like EVE meets UO....and if they can get the basics done right...meaning a polished and smooth running client, combat thats functional, entertaining and buttery smooth...and a world that doesnt look like ass.....well...this is going to be a game ill be playing for years.

Can these people PLEASE focus on making a smooth running client and enjoyable and professional combat system first before they dump their awesome feature list into some placeholder combat system as so many failed sandboxes have done? PLEASE! Failing at this will be another cruel joke played upon sandboxers who put up with so much crap and so many delays for subpar products.