I've been posting on various wrestling forums for over 3 years, and just did join Weinerville about 2 weeks ago. In this time, I've learned one valuable lesson;

The solution to everything is to stop complaining.

If we stop bitching, the WWE will get better.

If we stop whining, talented wrestlers will get pushed.

If we stop griping, good fueds and angles will be booked.

You see, it's OUR fault that the wrestling sucks. It's our fault for having higher standards and wanting more out of a product we pay for. You see, by voicing our opinions on a show we feel sucks ass, we're distracting valuable time from other posters looking for nude pictures of Stephanie MacMahon and discussing how great Triple H is night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night. It's our duty as fans to LOWER our standards and smile as Al Wilson's funeral plays on and Triple H slides the tubesteak to a mannequin topped off with jello.

We take ourselves and our opinions TOO SERIOUSLY people. We're a joke, a farce. See, only those who always support Vince MacMahon are TRUE fans. They're the ones graciously accepting the storylines and fueds that the very busy MacMahon family takes their precious time to create. We should be more appreciative, darn it! And if we can't appreciate it, if we can't cheer for Steiner matches and Jericho's constant jobbing, then by golly we should turn off our TV. We're not REAL fans like the people who constantly degrade us. They have more of a right to watch the shows and voice their input than we do, because we simply "don't get it."

It's not our place to tell the WWE what we're entertained by. It's not our right as fans to try to steer the product where we want it to be. We should all just shut up, smile, and lovingly except whatever is shoveled upon us.

Next time you type up a post on how bad the WWE is, don't argue with the first person to pop up and chastice you for being stupid and overly critical. Don't point out the hipocrisy of him complaining and bitching about your bitching and complaining. Just apologize for voicing your opinion, and tell him you'll try harder to view the WWE from the same narrow, closeminded position he's coming from.

I, on the other hand, agree with most of what Venom is trying to say. Most of us remember how great wrestling was and could be, and we know that today's product is lacking to each of us in certain areas. When most of us criticize, it isn't because we are looking to just have something to bitch about. We just want to have the product right itself. And when I see the WWE come up with numerous excuses as to why their product isn't doing well (we break too much kayfabe, the IWC is just jealous, it's just a down-cycle in wrestling), I see a federation not owning up to its mistakes.

No. But then again, the complaining isn't really getting anything done either, is it? Then it begins to get annoying. I don't need to be told how many times you hate HHH. I got it the first time. Every topic does not have to be linked to HHH getting pushed/sleeping with Stephanie/the Undertaker is a HOSS by Gawd/If Chris Benoit was champion we wouldn't have these problems. Maybe for once, I'd like to hear something OTHER than this, hmm? There's a lot of negativity floating around, and I once in a while would like to read something positive.

If we stop griping, good fueds and angles will be booked.

No, but they ARE being booked. For every HHH/Steiner, we have HBK/Jericho, or Brock/Team Angle, or Trish/Victoria. They're giving us some good stuff, but for whatever reason, there are some people who are REFUSING to see it.

You see, it's OUR fault that the wrestling sucks. It's our fault for having higher standards and wanting more out of a product we pay for.

No, we should hold them to high standards, but we shouldn't hold them to unreasonable ones, nor should we throw up our hands and say "That's the end of it!" when they make a misstep. The people who run the company are just as human as you and I, and are apt to make a mistake or two, and sometimes, when it rains it pours. But it doesn't help for a person to constantly gripe about something whenever the opportunity presents itself. And it doesn't help that every day there's a new post that says "Reports say that (Wrestler X) isn't being pushed because (Unpopular Writer A) doesn't like him/her." Maybe. Maybe not. Who are we to say?

discussing how great Triple H is night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night.

That's kinda like discussing how terrible Triple H is night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night after night, huh?

We take ourselves and our opinions TOO SERIOUSLY people.

I don't know. We probably do. We certainly take Wrestling too seriously.

See, only those who always support Vince MacMahon are TRUE fans. They're the ones graciously accepting the storylines and fueds that the very busy MacMahon family takes their precious time to create.

There's something wrong with that? Or do only YOUR opinions matter. There's certainly a place for the negative opinions that we, the "IWC" have expressed, but we don't need to harp and needle on them over and over and over again.

And if we can't appreciate it, if we can't cheer for Steiner matches and Jericho's constant jobbing, then by golly we should turn off our TV.

As much people have threatened to turn it off, not many have. Why's that? Though, the point IS valid. If you don't enjoy a show, why do you watch it? If you do enjoy it then why does every other word have to be a complaint?

They have more of a right to watch the shows and voice their input than we do, because we simply "don't get it."

No they don't, but then again, you don't have a right to tell them that they don't "get it" either. If a person says that he likes HHH and isn't bored by his promos, he has every right to feel that way. It's a TWO way street. It's not a one way street that is going one way, which you want to go completely the OTHER way.

Just apologize for voicing your opinion, and tell him you'll try harder to view the WWE from the same narrow, closeminded position he's coming from.

Have you met the kettle?

You're not saying anything that hasn't been said before. Neither am I. And people say the WWE is stale!

Honestly, say what you want, but don't get all up in arms when somebody disagrees. You say you don't want people to disagree with you, but you completely ignore that there are people who genuinely like the product and don't get why you don't. Like I said, it's a two way street, don't be surprised if there's a little bit of traffic.

Originally posted by Excalibur05And if we can't appreciate it, if we can't cheer for Steiner matches and Jericho's constant jobbing, then by golly we should turn off our TV.

As much people have threatened to turn it off, not many have. Why's that? Though, the point IS valid. If you don't enjoy a show, why do you watch it? If you do enjoy it then why does every other word have to be a complaint?

quoteend]

Unfortunately, over the past two and a half years, around half the audience has turned of the TV. Who knows what the reason was (not being sarcastic), but they have turned off the TV and disappeared.

Excaliber> Didn't you tell me to "stop griping" about Matt Hardy's character in an earlier thread? You can't have it both ways. You can't tell me that "all opinions are valid" while at the same time telling me to shut up in a thread because you disagree with me. It's that very hyprocritcal nature of the "shut up and don't watch" minority on this board that pisses me off. Hey, if you don't like reading whiny posts, don't use the forums. Aren't you, by definition the same thing you hate? Aren't you bitching and complaining about something you find annoying and inane?

And don't pull out the tired old, "that's all you ever do" card. Yeah, there are a lot of post about how the WWE sucks and how much shit is on wrestling TV. It's not just the same 2 or 4 posters, it's a few 100 or so. It's popular opinion right now, and ratings and buyrates reflect that. No matter how much you and your ilk bash those who criticize Vince and Company, it will remain popular opinion until the dynamic of the WWE changes.

And I also find it particularly amusing that whenever I post something addressing this issue in any forum, one of you instantly takes it apart bit by bit to create the illusion of fairness and objectivity by generalizing us all in the same whiny smart mark mold of overcritical, nagging, smart asses who are never satisified and belittle everyone we disagree with it. Nice try though, at least you didn't say "FUCKING COCKSUCKER" in your reply like most people.

Yes CRZ, it is a mammoth waste of time, but a waste of time I find enjoyable. Nothing pleases me more than annoying the shit out "holier than thou art" net fans.

Vaguely familiar sentiments Venom- I can't say that I really disagree with your post. CRZ may have a point (amazing, I know) about it being "twice the waste of time," since few will listen, fewer will agree, and most love the fact that they are "haters" so much that you will be openly mocked, but I understand how you feel that something has to be said.Hell, I have felt the same way.Problem is that the best way to change things is to post more positive things- but positive threads invaribly turn into constructive criticism and complaints (with few exceptions), and those turn into outright bashing. I have come to look at it like gravity. Damn it hurts when you fall, but it is not like you can stop it from happening. So you just avoid it as much as you can.Like posting anything in the wrestling folder...

I personally take it upon myself to weed through the negative posts. you can tell if some shit is gonna be negative or not...........so just skim through it or skip it. Everyone complains. Its human nature to bitch. The whole point of life is that we are never satisfied. Satisfaction brings complacency. We all love wrestling. Thats why most of us are here talking about it on this board. One of the most negative things i gained from learning about the IWC was that jaded smark point of view. Once you go all the way you can never go back. Kinda like in the Matrix. I can no longer simply watch and enjoy an edition of Smackdown (would have put Raw but i knew a joke would come of it). I tend to over analyze it. The best example of this was Wrestlemania 17. I knew the Rock was gonna lose bc he was leaving for a movie. I still enjoyed the match but i still wonder if it was the highest possible level of enjoyment. Anyways im rambling and may be off topic but basically this is the way of life in the IWC and especially in the boards. If you cant deal with it, then sorry bc ur stuck. Just dont go to the boards! but dont think that you will be able to escape lol

While I do see the need to be down on the product as it is now and have negative feedback about it, I feel there IS some good on the shows and I'd like to see some more people acknowledging it more often. Instead it seems that here on a message board for 'wrestling fans', 4 out of 5 posters are NOT fans. They are the ones that no matter what have to pick apart every little screwup or bad segment, or just ANYTHING that can in the right light, be turned into a negative.

RAW's ratings went over a 4.0 for the first time in months monday, MONTHS, and to boot, it was a highly enjoyable show from start to finish. Instead of hearing someone say this, we get a thread where it only took 5 posts to start putting the show down and the thread now stands ab 60 posts with 18 of them all negative, and some of those weren't even about the show?!? What's that all about?

All I'd like to see, is 1 thread, just '1' thread, that doesn't have someone bringing up something bad, cause at least right now, there is WAY MORE better then the bad on the shows, and it you ignore the bad, the good will look that much better.

And another thing, just because you may not like someone, say Helmsley, or 3MW, or Big Show, doesn't mean EVERYONE hates them. I personally, don't care much for Big Show, but I'll voice my opinion and leave it there. Others feel the need to keep saying how they feel until someone else, and there IS always someone else, joins in and agrees, which brings on those annoying mob mentallity type threads that most end up turning into... SHIT, I just had a great idea for a new thread, I gotta go, check out the wrestling board.

Damn...you go through and COUNT EVERY NEGATIVE POST?! And call us obsessive and over-critical?

See, you're the type of person Excalibur confuses me for; you hate people who disagree with your positive view of the show, then rally, bitch, and nag about people who rally, bitch, and nag. I've seen you yourself rally a few Positive-Police officers in threads of your own when one person (ie ME) bring up a bad point from a show.

I bust out this kind of critisicm once every couple months when the Positive-Police start cracking skulls and demanding everyone see things their way. CRZ's right, it is a colossal waste of time, but it's nice to body-check the PP into the wall every once in a while.

Oh, the first post was supposed to be sarcastic. When I first read it I thought Venom went though a revelation that when you start looking for the good in something you may start to enjoy it.

I've really become numb to the negativity and skim through it if not avoid it all together (I stopped going to the torch website months and months ago.)

When I watch wrestling I try to find the positive and generally ignore the negative. I think 3 minutes is entertaining. I like the entrance music and the look and some of the power moves especially the toss the guy into a Samoan drop dealie. I think Big Show is entertaining. I think his work with Paul Heyman the last couple months has been outstanding. Lately I've even liked what Triple H has been doing with his little stable.

I still enjoy watching wrestling and will do so until I don't. Ignoring what some of you web nitwits say helps that.

Originally posted by VenomDamn...you go through and COUNT EVERY NEGATIVE POST?! And call us obsessive and over-critical?

Sorry, it's a number thing, I'm on medication for it though!

Anyway, I don't ALWAYS bitch about the bitching, just when all there IS is bitching. I bitch about stuff just like the rest of you, I remember being totally against watching for a whole month a while back, and to weeks into my sabbatical, they brought in Eazy E. How could I stay away after THAT, right?

All I'm saying is, that it wouldn't kill some of you to ignore the bad once in a while and enjoy the show for what it is, non-realistic, escapist tv.

The Simpsons have really bad showsm but you don't see people ONLY talking about those really bad shows, they talk about the good ones.

Cerebrus> "The Simpsons have really bad showsm but you don't see people ONLY talking about those really bad shows, they talk about the good ones."

People constantly bitch about stupid shit they do on the Simpsons on the internet and in my house while the show is on. You can't make generalizations like that and expect it to hold up.

Listen, you seem a bit more level-headed than guys like Excaliber and Rick. I don't think you have an actual seething hatred for people who are down on the shows. You don't seem to be fighting the same crusade to shut up the negative Nelly's who are tired of watching what they feel is an inferior product. You only seem caught up in it. All I'm really asking for is a bit more tolerance-flexibility when it comes to posts and threads. Don't instantly raise your shields and charge your phasers when someone says that Batista is a bad wrestler or the days until No Way Out are more than Vince MacMahon's RAW ultimatum. Disagree, voice your opinion, state your facts...but don't demand that the rest of us shut up in doing so.

Originally posted by VenomListen, you seem a bit more level-headed than guys like Excaliber and Rick. I don't think you have an actual seething hatred for people who are down on the shows. You don't seem to be fighting the same crusade to shut up the negative Nelly's who are tired of watching what they feel is an inferior product. You only seem caught up in it. All I'm really asking for is a bit more tolerance-flexibility when it comes to posts and threads. Don't instantly raise your shields and charge your phasers when someone says that Batista is a bad wrestler or the days until No Way Out are more than Vince MacMahon's RAW ultimatum. Disagree, voice your opinion, state your facts...but don't demand that the rest of us shut up in doing so.