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Topic: Usury is sinful? (Read 39579 times)

Basically, another poster on another thread brought up this topic. So, to keep it from detracting from the OP of that thread, I thought we could discuss it all on it's own here since it is an issue that's very important (and quite relevant) for us Christian's in today's economic outlook.

I guess I had overlooked this topic in the scriptures and Tradition. Is it truly frowned upon? How can we, in today's credit driven world, deal with it? What about 401(k)'s and IRA's and the like? In America, you cannot own a house without a loan from the bank. What are Christian's to do? And what specifically to the Scriptures and Saints say about this?

In Christ,

Gabriel

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Basically, another poster on another thread brought up this topic. So, to keep it from detracting from the OP of that thread, I thought we could discuss it all on it's own here since it is an issue that's very important (and quite relevant) for us Christian's in today's economic outlook.

I guess I had overlooked this topic in the scriptures and Tradition. Is it truly frowned upon? How can we, in today's credit driven world, deal with it?

For starters, one can cut up the credit card, pay that sucker off, cancel the account, and live frugally within one's means. It's not that difficult once you get started but it does require a radical change in one's outlook and attitude towards money. My wife and I are in the process of doing just that. I've lived through massive credit card debt and repayment and it's not something that I would wish on my worst enemy. Yes, I put myself in that situation through irresponsibility, but I've paid back what I owed and realized one does not need a credit card. Indeed, both of my wife's grandparents have lived their entire lives without a credit card or indeed an ATM card. Her grandfather has bought everything, including two homes and a number of automobiles, with cash, and most of that AFTER the powers-that-be decided that we must live in their "credit driven world".

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In America, you cannot own a house without a loan from the bank.

I have to disagree. The problem arises when people think loan = free money and they live outside their means. The incredible rise in foreclosures due to variable rate loans and borrowers inability to educate themselves and guard against predatory lenders is indicative of a much larger problem of people who do not, cannot and will not live within their means.

Again, I say this as someone who has screwed up their financial life once through such irresponsibility. A friend of mine who makes less than $50k a year working one job has two kids with a stay-at-home wife lives in a nice town about forty miles from DC with a 2 bedroom house w/ finished basement. He also has two running cars and a third that he's restoring. He paid for his house in cash, has no credit card, and puts about 15% of his earnings away into savings and a retirement account. He's utterly flabbergasted at his peers who have no savings and are enslaved to creditors when he makes so much less a year than he does and do not have the responsibility to provide for a wife and two children.

He's one of my heros and a major impetus (along with my wife's grandfather) for getting my life back in order and being responsible. It's not easy, but it is possible.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Apparently, yes. In the OT, there are many passages that prohibit and condemn lending money and charging interest (Exodus 22:24; Leviticus 25:36-37; Deuteronomy 23:20-21; Ezekiel 18:8-17; 22:12; Psalms 15:5; Proverbs 28, vs. eight). I don't recall any specific lift of these prohibitions in the NT. (The parable of talents is certainly not about money at all, as far as I can see, so it does not count.)

Basically, another poster on another thread brought up this topic. So, to keep it from detracting from the OP of that thread, I thought we could discuss it all on it's own here since it is an issue that's very important (and quite relevant) for us Christian's in today's economic outlook.

I guess I had overlooked this topic in the scriptures and Tradition. Is it truly frowned upon? How can we, in today's credit driven world, deal with it? What about 401(k)'s and IRA's and the like? In America, you cannot own a house without a loan from the bank. What are Christian's to do? And what specifically to the Scriptures and Saints say about this?

In Christ,

Gabriel

There is nothing wrong with barrowing money to buy a home. What is troubling is that people don't realize what they are getting into with some of these newer types of loans. Many today are in trouble because they have misused arm type loans. Many professionals mortgage lenders also are at fault because they never explained to applicants what these loans are and misinformed honest people about arms. The main issue is mortgage brokers were feeding off of uneducated people. There is an old Greek saying that says. There are two places where man must be careful not to leave his mark. One on paper and the other ,

There is nothing wrong with barrowing money to buy a home. What is troubling is that people don't realize what they are getting into with some of these newer types of loans. Many today are in trouble because they have misused arm type loans. Many professionals mortgage lenders also are at fault because they never explained to applicants what these loans are and misinformed honest people about arms. The main issue is mortgage brokers were feeding off of uneducated people. There is an old Greek saying that says. There are two places where man must be careful not to leave his mark. One on paper and the other ,

Never make a deal with the devil, you always lose. ha ha.

I consider usury, a form of slavery. It is slavery without whips and chains in the literally sense, but they do exist in the metophorical sense.

But lending money and charging interest is, according to the Bible, a sin. And lenders would not lend if there were no borrowers. So, if you are a borrower, you are helping those who lend with interest, or, in other words, you are assisting someone in committing a sin.

If you're like me and pay off your bills monthly, you don't get charged interest

In general, on a note, if it wasn't for debt, this country would not have gained the economic advantage that it has today, and would not be the great capitalist country it is today. The US financial system is based around debt. Hell, every financial system in the world is based around debt. How many doctors, lawyers, accountants, theologians, seminarians, etc. would make it through school if there was no ability to take out a loan to pay for schooling? Or how many people would be without houses if there was no ability to take out a home mortgage loan? How would new ventures on the cutting edge ever develop if there were no such thing as Angel investors? Lets face it, if you use debt wisely its the greatest financing tool ever created.

For me personally, my student loans made me money in a sense. The interest rate on them is under the rate of inflation, so it makes no sense for me to pay them off early. My wife had some private loans for law school, which were 8%, which I can understand would totally suck, but she got hit by a car and the settlement was to the exact thousand dollars what she needed to pay off the private part....she says God allowed a little bit of pain for a great reward.

But lending money and charging interest is, according to the Bible, a sin. And lenders would not lend if there were no borrowers. So, if you are a borrower, you are helping those who lend with interest, or, in other words, you are assisting someone in committing a sin.

Given that Jews themselves reinterpreted those passages, I think we can too since they were OT. I think the guiding principle is not to overcharge interest, or charge interest to those we are helping out personally as charity.

For me personally, my student loans made me money in a sense. The interest rate on them is under the rate of inflation, so it makes no sense for me to pay them off early. My wife had some private loans for law school, which were 8%, which I can understand would totally suck, but she got hit by a car and the settlement was to the exact thousand dollars what she needed to pay off the private part....she says God allowed a little bit of pain for a great reward.

Fortunately, there's a new federal program that will forgive the unpaid balance of federal student loans after ten years in public service. Since I planned on being a career prosecutor anyway, that's how most of mine will go away.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Given that Jews themselves reinterpreted those passages, I think we can too since they were OT. I think the guiding principle is not to overcharge interest, or charge interest to those we are helping out personally as charity.

Since when do we follow the example of the Talmudists? They don't even have the same OT as us.

Usury is slavery to the world. It creates a Servile State which is ultimately unChristian.

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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Since when do we follow the example of the Talmudists? They don't even have the same OT as us.

I think it's pretty ironic that you are insinuating that I think we do given that I have spent an inordinate amount of time explaining to Protestants that we do not have the same OT as them. Of course you have no way of knowing that but that is why I find it personally ironic.

However, let's not pretend that differences are total between the Masoretic text and the Septuagint. They are different, but they are not completely different, and I doubt that they are different on the point of usury.

You might also want to ask why the Masoretic text is taught in Hebrew at your OCA seminary St Vladimir's though since you seem to have so much of an issue with it

If you're like me and pay off your bills monthly, you don't get charged interest

In general, on a note, if it wasn't for debt, this country would not have gained the economic advantage that it has today, and would not be the great capitalist country it is today. The US financial system is based around debt. Hell, every financial system in the world is based around debt. How many doctors, lawyers, accountants, theologians, seminarians, etc. would make it through school if there was no ability to take out a loan to pay for schooling? Or how many people would be without houses if there was no ability to take out a home mortgage loan? How would new ventures on the cutting edge ever develop if there were no such thing as Angel investors? Lets face it, if you use debt wisely its the greatest financing tool ever created.

-Nick

I don't think the issue is really with debt, borrowing or loans as much as it is with charging interest on these debts. Imagine you could borrow the amount you needed and be fully reassured that would only have to pay exactly that amount back and not a single cent more. How great would that be?

But lending money and charging interest is, according to the Bible, a sin. And lenders would not lend if there were no borrowers. So, if you are a borrower, you are helping those who lend with interest, or, in other words, you are assisting someone in committing a sin.

Ok than. Paying your landlord so he can pay his mortgage must also be a sin.

I don't think the issue is really with debt, borrowing or loans as much as it is with charging interest on these debts. Imagine you could borrow the amount you needed and be fully reassured that would only have to pay exactly that amount back and not a single cent more. How great would that be?

It wouldn't--there would be no incentive for anyone to loan money because they would LOSE money due to inflation.

I don't think the issue is really with debt, borrowing or loans as much as it is with charging interest on these debts. Imagine you could borrow the amount you needed and be fully reassured that would only have to pay exactly that amount back and not a single cent more. How great would that be?

If it's so important to not pay interest, then save and pay in cash rather than going for instant gratification. Interest is the fee for having now what you would otherwise have to save to have.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

For starters, one can cut up the credit card, pay that sucker off, cancel the account, and live frugally within one's means. It's not that difficult once you get started but it does require a radical change in one's outlook and attitude towards money. My wife and I are in the process of doing just that. I've lived through massive credit card debt and repayment and it's not something that I would wish on my worst enemy. Yes, I put myself in that situation through irresponsibility, but I've paid back what I owed and realized one does not need a credit card. Indeed, both of my wife's grandparents have lived their entire lives without a credit card or indeed an ATM card. Her grandfather has bought everything, including two homes and a number of automobiles, with cash, and most of that AFTER the powers-that-be decided that we must live in their "credit driven world".

Rather than attacking the idea of credit and modern banking because of its misuse by people (and taking out a loan you can't pay for a la the current foreclosure, racking up credit card debt, etc. is entirely irrelevant to credit and is more a matter of self control), the ability to obtain a loan has revolutionized the standard of living for many people around the world. There is no better example of this than the work of Dr. Muhammad Yunus.

the ability to obtain a loan has revolutionized the standard of living for many people around the world. There is no better example of this than the work of Dr. Muhammad Yunus.

I still think that receiving a loan does not help the individual more than saving and using cash, unless the person using the credit turns that money around and makes more in investment interest than what he's paying in repayment interest. Yes, it is quick cashflow that in the short-term increases standard of living. But it also mortgages the future, forcing people to work longer later in life, rather than actually retire, and I'd argue this situation is actually a reduction in quality of life.

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

I don't want to give the impression that I'm attacking, or even against, capatilism per se, but it's fairly obvious that the love of money is something that Christians are to be very wary of. I'm very worried that the Christian world-view today is shaped by a more secular world-view of which money seems to be at the center. We're definately light years away from when the first Christians shared everything they had in a very communal sense; something that seems to go completely against the grain of the Western, individualistic ethos.

Yet, what I'm primarily interested in is; what exactly is 'usury' as defined by Scripture, why has it been prohibited (or has it?), and how can a Christian even exist in a Capitalist society while maintaining a Christian outlook? I have some ideas and theories, but I'm chiefly interested in hearing how y'all understand the issue? And how, for those of you who've chosen to, have you learned to live with less?

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I still think that receiving a loan does not help the individual more than saving and using cash, unless the person using the credit turns that money around and makes more in investment interest than what he's paying in repayment interest. Yes, it is quick cashflow that in the short-term increases standard of living. But it also mortgages the future, forcing people to work longer later in life, rather than actually retire, and I'd argue this situation is actually a reduction in quality of life.

I believe Nektarios is speaking specifically of the Grameen Bank, which offers microcredit to poor women in Bangladesh. The idea is that by making small loans to the extremely poor for business purposes, they'll be able to repay the loan with their earnings, while also retaining enough to substantially improve their standard of living.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

I believe Nektarios is speaking specifically of the Grameen Bank, which offers microcredit to poor women in Bangladesh. The idea is that by making small loans to the extremely poor for business purposes, they'll be able to repay the loan with their earnings, while also retaining enough to substantially improve their standard of living.

An interesting point indeed, and one which would buck many of the lending trends. It's a decent model for business, but not for personal use; and then the question becomes: is usury disallowed for businesses by the Bible?

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

I believe Nektarios is speaking specifically of the Grameen Bank, which offers microcredit to poor women in Bangladesh. The idea is that by making small loans to the extremely poor for business purposes, they'll be able to repay the loan with their earnings, while also retaining enough to substantially improve their standard of living.

Bingo.

People can grossly abuse the fruits of capitalism, but then again every previous and contemporary economic system has had as many serious problems. The point is that capitalism has the most potential to eradicate extreme poverty... not so that everyone has a plasma TV, more like so that children won't be malnourished, communicable diseases can be slowed and the like.

And even in middle class America the responsible use of credit has enabled to own homes or attend university that would otherwise never have been able to.

No. I'm arguing that it has to be understand in its cultural and historical context...kind of like you do with Genesis there

Is fornication also to be understood in its cultural and historical context... like my daughter and her fiance are truly loving each other and living together, and of course having this most wonderful, fulfilling sex... glory be to them, no sin?

Rather than attacking the idea of credit and modern banking because of its misuse by people (and taking out a loan you can't pay for a la the current foreclosure, racking up credit card debt, etc. is entirely irrelevant to credit and is more a matter of self control), the ability to obtain a loan has revolutionized the standard of living for many people around the world. There is no better example of this than the work of Dr. Muhammad Yunus.

Well, and the ability to live under the same roof and have great sex and not be bound to each other for life has also, presumably, revolutionized the standard of living of very many people around the world...

I still think that receiving a loan does not help the individual more than saving and using cash, unless the person using the credit turns that money around and makes more in investment interest than what he's paying in repayment interest. Yes, it is quick cashflow that in the short-term increases standard of living. But it also mortgages the future, forcing people to work longer later in life, rather than actually retire, and I'd argue this situation is actually a reduction in quality of life.

The secular life is about having more than your neighbor. If your neighbor buys a BMW than you have to purchase a Mercedes Benz. It forces good people to compete with each other. The outcome becomes hatred. Competition is what drives the economy, fuels the beast. The secular life destroys souls. Being Christian today is difficult from a spiritual aspect, for those unaware.That is what is meant when Christ tells us to hate the world.

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1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm attacking, or even against, capatilism per se, but it's fairly obvious that the love of money is something that Christians are to be very wary of. I'm very worried that the Christian world-view today is shaped by a more secular world-view of which money seems to be at the center. We're definately light years away from when the first Christians shared everything they had in a very communal sense; something that seems to go completely against the grain of the Western, individualistic ethos.

Yet, what I'm primarily interested in is; what exactly is 'usury' as defined by Scripture, why has it been prohibited (or has it?), and how can a Christian even exist in a Capitalist society while maintaining a Christian outlook? I have some ideas and theories, but I'm chiefly interested in hearing how y'all understand the issue? And how, for those of you who've chosen to, have you learned to live with less?

The Scripture is against usury. Love of money is a separate issue. Murder is a sin, and so is envy. Usury is identified in the Bible as a sin, and so is the love of money. While all things are related, there is no real reason to always try and deduce one sin from another or to whitewash one sin and say that it is the other that is "really" a sin.

Yet, what I'm primarily interested in is; what exactly is 'usury' as defined by Scripture, why has it been prohibited (or has it?), and how can a Christian even exist in a Capitalist society while maintaining a Christian outlook? I have some ideas and theories, but I'm chiefly interested in hearing how y'all understand the issue? And how, for those of you who've chosen to, have you learned to live with less?

Usury means charging interest. Like, you give one cent to someone, and say, give me back this cent and one half of the cent. Or, one thousand dollars that I gave you, plus two hundred dollars. It does not matter what exactly is the interest and why is it being charged and whether the lender uses it for good or for evil purposes. The Scriptures are clear. You charge interest, so you are doing what the Lord commands you NOT to do. You aid someone who is charging interest by agreeing to pay this interest - so, you are patraking in sin.

Then why waste your time on a forum whose very members base there very lives on this very document? Oh, wait; more sarcasm?

I simply admit what others practice but don't admit.

I believe that Orthodox Christianity is about taking the spirit of the Gospels and making it relevant to any time period or culture - not literally applying the externals of one time period and culture to other times.

No one has lived up to the glory of God. That is why we needed a savior.

Right, but right here on this forum, people spend time and eloquence condemning those who fornicate, and yet nobody spends nearly as much time and eloquence condemning those (beginning from our very beloved selves) who partake in usury. Meanwhile, usury is as much a gross sin and insult to God as fornication is.