mbuhrmester wrote:Hello,I know it may be unusual for a family member to provide this much information, but as my brother and I are both avid climbers as well, having learned and enjoyed climbing with our parents for so many years, we think it's important that all the evidence be considered and try to get the most accurate picture of what happened. I'm certain that my parents acted as the extremely competent and well-seasoned mountaineers that they were and had been for almost 40 years each (not to mention -- in extremely good physical condition, both long distance runners). They just had the tragic misfortune, I believe, to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yes, it is unusual, and thank you so very much. The so-called news media usually give a cartoonishly unrealistic picture of what happened whenever there is a climbing accident, and your dedication to accuracy is very refreshing. Your analysis is exactly what I, too, would expect of seasoned climbers. This must be a very hard time for you and your brother, so sincere thanks on that level too. Climb on, and remember them with pride!

I have been to the mountaintop, and I have seen the forceand the power that animates the universe. That may notmatch up with your anthropomorphic or teleological idea ofwhat "god" is, but it's good enough for me.

cjolly wrote:I want everyone to know that God is real and he is good. Our party (four experienced climbers) got stuck on the needle and had to wait out the storm. Yes we saw it coming but there was no time to bail out from where we were at. We had lightning strike our bodies through the mountain twice. We had to spend the night in the gullies at about 13,700 feet due to the fog we couldn't see 10 feet in front of us. The conditions were terrible. There was rocks flying off the mountain (huge boulders). The storm came so quick and we were so high up that we decided to wait it out. I am so sorry that the two climbers passed away on the mountain. My prayers go out to there families. I do want to say to some of the people posting blogs that you should not criticize these climbers for "maybe" making bad decisions. They may have made great decisions and it still didn't work out for them. Tragedy can happen in a split second, weather can turn on you no matter what the forecast. God blessed us and surrounded us with angels on that mountain. Thank you to everyone that searched for the two climbers and thank you for being on standby to come rescue us. My wife and family members were extremely worried when they did not here from us but the rescue team and Bob especially helped them through it and they all remained calm and prayed for our return. Thanks again to God, he is real and he is good.

Ummm... so the logical conclusion of your statements is that God likes you better than he liked them??? Or he was too busy saving your butts to worry about them??? Or...???? But then again God created the storm in the first place so...??? Maybe to test your faith and the Texas couple were collateral damage??? An interesting conundrum; good things (your butts being saved) are attributed to God, but bad things (the storm which killed (perhaps) two other people) was a random tragedy. Or perhaps Satan did it... and your omnipotent God was powerless to stop him????

I am SO confused.

Of course, trying to apply logic to fundamentally flawed propositions is probably the first mistake.

cjollly-I'm so glad you were guided to safety. Yes God is good and He is real.

What puzzles me is why some people, such as alpinista, use forums such as this to lash and mock others beliefs? Is this not a forum for education and information? There is no need to try and rationalize why tragedies happen to some and not to others. Alpinista~take your mockery somewhere else and let this forum be used for its intended purposes.

I agree with you that the comments were a bit over the top, but I also understand what alpinista was trying to say (or at least how I took them). It's fine to praise god on this forum, that's your right. But on an RIP thread for a couple that recently died a tragic death, a thread that is likely frequented by the family and friends of the deceased, it's probably inappropriate to say 'god is real and god is good because my party and I were saved during the same storm that this couple perished in'. It would have been appropriate for cjolly to start a new thread with his/her story of survival during this storm. On the other hand, I highly doubt that cjolly meant to convey what he/she was accused of conveying, so everyone should just cool off on this one.

Thanks for understanding - and doing your best to satisfy - our curiosity as to "what happened." I think that a non-mountaineering family might find the questions and discussions on this site sometimes callous and inconsiderate in regard to the deceased's family and friends, if not morbid. I'm glad you understand that we all spend a lot of time "out there," and anything we can learn from this will only serve to keep ourselves, and our own families and friends who join us, safer.

As you know, the weather here has been inconsistent and dangerous lately - I've been caught in several isolated downpours myself over the past couple of weeks, that seemed to build at an amazing speed, let loose, and then dissipate just as quickly as they appeared. We all do our best to avoid being caught in a precarious spot when this happens, but sometimes, due to the time it takes to remove yourself from the situation versus the speed at which a storm comes in, it's just not possible to get down in time. Add to that the danger of rock fall and rock slides from rocks that have been sitting on a steep, saturated incline, from previous rainfall, and it really doesn't take much to set them off.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. When someone dies in the mountains, the media always says "they were experienced hikers," even if they've never strayed beyond a well-beaten trail. But it sounds like your parents really were experienced hikers, climbers, and parents, who took the time to share their passion for mountaineering with their children, and that's something we can all learn from.

Thank you so much for your detailed contribution. I think we can all put the speculation to rest now.

Well said Susan, and thanks to Michael for that detailed and passionate post. I am sorry for your loss. Come on y'all, let's put religion and politics aside and try to learn from this...

kaiman

"I want to keep the mountains clean of racism, religion and politics. In the mountains this should play no role."

- Joe Stettner

"I haven't climbed Everest, skied to the poles, or sailed single-handed around the world. The goals I set out to accomplish aren't easily measured or quantified by world records or "firsts." The reasons I climb, and the climbs I do, are about more than distance or altitude, they are about breaking barriers within myself."

Michael, Thank you for the post. My prayers and condolences continue to be with you, your brother, and the rest of the family. I can't even begin to imagine the shock and grief you all must be feeling, yet you're still able to give such a clear post here.... Please know that you will remain.

Michael, first, my sincere condolences on the passing of your parents. Sounds like they were making all the right decisions but got caught in a tragic circumstance.

Thanks very much for posting the details that you were able to discover or deduce. It's helpful to us all as I'm sure your folks would have wanted that as serious and experienced climbers/mountaineers. I'm sure they would be proud of you and your brothers following in their footsteps in life and in the mountains. Though nothing will ever replace them in your lives, may you all find peace in the days ahead.