Interview with Sylvia and Hilton Goldman, 1987

THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
FOLKLIFE FESTIVAL
INTERVIEW WITH: Sylvia and Hilton Goldman
DATE: August 7, 1987, Folklife Festival, Jewish
PLACE: O.H. Office , ITC
INTERVIEWER: Esther MacMillan
M: Jewish immigrants in Luling) (1882 Adler) started out as
a peddler with a pack on his back selling needles and thread
and fabrics and whatnot and he was the purveyor o f news. He
went from farmhouse to farmhouse; they fed him; he stayed
overnight. And he finally ... they got over here and he had
to •.• my goodness gracious .•. Adlers ' was the first
gourmet grocery store in town.
SG: Was the grocery store •.. like a deli?
M: Yes, they had a wonderful selection .
SG: No, not ..•
M: It was on Broadway, near Josephine at one .• . when I
came; when we came here it was on ..•
SG: We haven't been here long enough to know that.
M: Well, anyway ... interesting how they started.
HG: OK , sO, these people came originally mostly from
western Europe.
M: Western Europe OK.
SG: The early ones.
GOLDMAN
HG: A few of the Spanish of course came from, like from
Brazil. But they came to the east coast.
M: OK.
2
HG: Don't know how many of them got down here because when
the Spanish and the Portugese got powerful; got influence in
Brazil; they had to flee again. Just as they had to flee
Spain and Portugal because of the Inquisition there.
Then, beginning in the mid 1880's we start ..• mostly
immigrants from Germany. And these were mostly merchants.
And I have looked at the records of the founding of the
first Temple here ... Temple Beth El.
M: Is that the first one here? Beth El?
HG: Yes, this was the first one. And most of the families
that were involved were German Jewish.
M: They were .•. not Polish?
HG: No, the Poles came quite a bit later. OK. Then ...
around 1880 or so the politics in Europe, eastern Europe,
turned very sour for the Jewish community. And now people
were fleeing Russia, fleeing Poland, and the whole Ukraine.
But mostly Russia and Poland. And originally they were
coming to New York City through Staten Island.
SG: Ellis Island.
HG: One of the major .•• Ellis Island, I'm sorry One
of the important financiers, Jewish financiers in New York
City, felt that this was bad in several ways. There were
limited opportunities for them there and in effect they were
creating a new ghetto. They were coming to get away from a
GOLDMAN 3
HG: ghetto and yet they were basically forming one. So
with the aid of a few other people, they formed a venture to
send a lot of these people, instead of New York City when
they came from Europe, to send them to Galveston. And then
they had arranged with a number of people in different
communities there to spread them through Texas, Oklahoma,
basically this area of the country ... Louisiana. And this
worked for about ten years or so.
And then something happened with immigration ..• there
was new ... someone took over and suddenly there's a new
policy. And even though everyone of these people were
guaranteed jobs, they were not going to be public charges;
they were not letting many of them in. They had all sorts
of strange excuses ..• it was a deliberate attempt to keep
them from coming in. So.
M: Was this at the Customs level?
HG: At the Customs level, yeah. So that's when that died
out. But that was the beginning of the influx from eastern
Europe. And most of the Jewish migration since has been
from eastern Europe because there were far more Jewish
people in eastern Europe than in western Europe. But the
immigrants who came primarily from Gel~any were the
merchants. Ah, the people who came from eastern Europe
didn't have the skills for the most part. They were sort of
almost starting from scratch when they came here.
SG: They were more the trades people.
HG: Yeah.
GOLDMAN 4
SG: They were the tailors, the whatever ...
M: They were in the clothing business strongly, weren't
they?
SG: A lot of them were.
M: From the beginning.
SG: Because they had limited skills, limited professions,
limited ways of earning money. And somehow being a tailor
was something that every town needed. So ..•
HG: Yes, it was like with the Levi that created the Levi
pants (jeans, Levis). He came here with a couple bolts of
fabric, and that was it.
M: Did he really? Is that ?
SG: I don't know how authentic it is but ...
M: I often think of Mr. Levi and wish he could see what's
happening. (laughter)
SG: No, that's, yeah that's right .•• what has happened.
But that's the story they tell , that he came with bolts ...
a couple of bolts of fabric and he out in San Francisco
he made some pants for the miners; the gold miners.
M: The gold miners!
SG: Because they needed strong pants and he had this
fabric.
M: Where did he bring the material from, do you know?
SG: (laughter) I think Germany; I think he came from
Germany.
M: What was he doing in San Francisco if he came from
Germany? That's way across the country.
GOLDMAN 5
HG: Well, there was opportunity.
SG: Opportunity; they went where the opportunitie s were.
And I think what's interesting about some o f these
opportunities that opened up for them is that in the course
of that .•. I mean in settling into, in a small town where
they had no ••• very few other Jews, they had to abandon,
they had to be willing to abandon some of their customs,
their traditions. Because they were living sort of in
isolation.
M: Yeah.
SG: And so contrary to what happened, you know what the
Vietnamese told you ... it was very hard to maintain that in
isolation.
HG: For example,
M: It would be har d for them.
HG: The religious Jew who has to have specially ... what
they call Kosher meats.
M: Yeah.
HG: As recently as 25 years ago, when we were living in
Amarillo, this meant bringing in from 400 miles away ...
meats in from 400 miles away. Now what they did in those
days it was impossible. They didn't have refrigeration.
M: That's right.
HG: So, you have to give up.
SG: You had to give up something, if you wanted to settle
in a town and make s ome sort of living for your family. And
so they had to ... there were choices •.•
GOLDMAN 6
M: What were the options?
SG: They had to make choices, exactly.
HG: There's a very different kind of immigrant •.• he was
Henry Castro from Castroville.
M: He was Portugese, wasn't he?
M: Wasn't he a Portugese Jew?
HG: No, he was from Alsace Lorraine.
M: Oh, I thought he was .•• I knew they were Alsatians but
I thought he came from Portugal. He was Alsatian?
SG: I think he was Alsatian.
HG: I think so.
M: I know about him. He did a pretty good job didn't he?
HG: Yeah.
SG: Yeah.
HG: He ran into some poitical problems here and financially
the thing didn't pan out as a business venture; didn't pan
out. But in terms of the other things they had hoped to
accomplish, they did.
M: You know what just occurs to me ••• here's the Jewish
religion and here's that strong Catholic religion from
France and the Alsatians and whatnot and it's such a strong
Catholic community. How did the Jewish people do in
Castroville?
HG: Well, there's a very interesting story there. If you
visited the main square it's like a one-block park and the
original plan was to have churches on all four streets
facing the park. And one of those was to be a Jewish
GOLDMAN
HG: synogogue , which was never built. But one of the
churches has .•. what do they call it, dear?
SG: Shalom House
HG: The Shalom House because they were anticipat ing ...
SG: They still have that.
7
HG: What I call their assembly room adjacent to the church
is called Shalom House.
M: For heaven's sake.
HG: Somehow the Jewish community never materialized there.
M: Not enough of them, maybe.
SG: Didn't pan o ut .
HG: They stayed in San Antonio instead.
M: Oh they did?
HG: Yeah.
M: Well, I had read that they were happier in an urban
su rrounding than they were in a rural.
HG: Because, yeah , because ••.
SG: And partly it's because of the religious affiliations,
too. I mean, they already had a semblance of something
here.
M: People , yeah.
SG: Temple Beth EI is 113 years old.
M: Is it really?
SG: the early settlers in San Antonio were
men of some importance in town, like the Oppenheimers.
M: Sure .
SG : The Oppenheimer family is still there, unincorporated.
GOLDMAN 8
HG: Joskes.
SG: And Joskes.
HG: There's another very interesting family, the Halffs.
And the reason I mention them is that because of
circumstances in Europe, most Jewish people were confined to
the ghettos of the various cities where they lived and you
know these were the beginnings of the high-rise; there's no
room to expand so buildings were three, four, five stories
high. They had to flee at a moment's notice. They were
constrained, there were very few businesses they could get
into, so it was mostly merchandising and a few things like
that.
SG: And banking.
HG: And banking, right.
SG: Don't forget banking.
HG: But somehow the story got around that, in a derogatory
way, Jews were not farmers. Yeah.
M: Sure , I've heard that.
HG: Yeah, and I think it's very interesting that the Halffs
were one of the biggest ranchers in Texas.
M: Were they?
SG: Yes .•• yes they were.
HG: With •.• starting with no experience.
M: Really?
SG: Yeah, they were and of course the Kallisons had a ranch
and Terry other ranch, yes, they also have a store.
M: Well, did you know Annice and Harry?
GOLDMAN
SG: No.
M: But the thing is that whether they ... they made do
didn't they? Out of a bad situation they were pretty
strong. You have a respect for them, don't you?
SG: Yes.
9
HG: Yes, I think though the, there were many of the
pioneers who came here who were very strong people. They
had to be, just to survive.
SG: They had to be really strong. When you think how
uncomfortable it must have been.
M: Yes.
SG: And then again I also want to talk about some of the
people that came to Texas during World War II or even
before, or even during World War II in the process because
some of the refugees were taken, were admitted to South
American countries. Or to Panama, or to Central American
countries . They couldn't get into the United States.
M: Where were they refugees from?
SG: From Hitler's Germany or from Poland.
M: Germany and Poland.
SG: Yes. We had a very dear friend who was from Germany,
from Berlin, and he was on the very last boat to leave
Germany. And the only visa he could get, the only admitting
place, was in Portugal. No, no, Cochabamba (?).
HG: Wait a minute. First of all, it's Portugal and when
they got to Portugal they said nOh, there's been a mistake."
Now this involves about 500 people.
GOLDMAN 10
M: Oh, my.
HG: Who were suddenly without a refuge. So they arranged
for them to go to Uruguay.
SG: No , not Uruguay, Bolivia.
HG: Bolivia.
SG: On condition that they be farmers. And so they became
M: Really.
HG. So became farmers. ( laughter)
SG: And they didn't have to stay there very long as
farmers. They became urban dwellers, because it's pretty
hard to be farmers in that altitude. (laughter)
M: Gosh.
SG: You have to be born into it, I think. But there were
others who also came through Panama or other South American
countries. And then eventually came here. Because they
were not .•. and some through Canada. So you got it both
ways because the United States immigrations were very
limited at that time. Extremely limited.
M: Was it?
SG: Oh, yes.
HG: In fact some even came in by way of Siberia.
SG: China.
HG: Siberia and China , yeah.
M: Really?
SG: Came that way; crossed that way.
HG: They were desperate ; any way to get out.
GOLDMAN 11
M: You know it's a commentary on this country isn't it,
how much people want to get here.
SG: Yes.
HG: Yes.
SG: Really, yeah.
M: And you think
SG: And I think it was also a commentary on immigration at
that time to have excluded people who really needed to corne
in because it was saving their lives.
M: Who understands the Customs?
SG: Yes.
HG: The interesting thing is that in many of the countries
in Europe, the Jews were barely getting by. It was a very
uncomforable position for many years. The German Jews were
sort of an exception because the community there was really
thriving until Hitler carne along. And of course that was
part of the problem. They were doing so well that there
were those who envied what they had.
SG: They didn't want to leave because they kept saying
"Well, this is going to blow over. I mean, nobody's going
to listen to this man forever and ever."
M: Ha ha.
SG: They couldn't see that far down the road. And so they
were stuck until
M: Did you see that documentary that ran for 2 days at
Trinity?
HG: Yes.
GOLDMAN
M: What was it called, Shoah?
HG: Shoah, yes.
M: Wasn't that the most remarkable thing you've ever
seen?
SG: Yes. it really was.
12
M: It was such a beautifully done job. The photography,
the whole approach. I can remember watching the movie that
was called "Holocaust" a long time ago ... oh, it was
several years ago. And it was, well, it was well done, but
-t-h-i-s- was a beautiful piece of work. This will be history.
SG: Totally different.
M: Yeah. And that won't be lost; that nasty bit. There
are people in Germany say , "Why it never happened.
true, you know."
It's not
SG: People in this country say the same thing. That it
never happened.
HG: Yes.
M: How c~ they say that?
SG: I don't know, I can't ••.
HG: Unfortunately, there are even a few college professors
SG: .•• who have said that.
M: That it didn't happen?
HG: Yes.
GOLDMAN
M: I can't believe anyone being that dumb, can you?
SG: I can't either.
M: Oh.
HG : How much evidence do you need, yeah .. ,
SG: You don't •..
M: You see they talk about this business I do ... this
oral history business. I'm getting people talking about
these things you see. I have got the most remarkable
collection ever.
SG: All kinds of military here.
13
M: I didn't set out to get it but there are so darn many
of them. You get one person talking about one episode .,.
one episode .•. put those all together •.. this is stuff,
you know. This is the stuff of history. And you've told me
some things I didn't know before at all. This is
fascinating.
What about now, here we are in Texas. The Jewish
people have come from allover and they landed in Texas.
They've landed not just in San Antonio but all around and
they've managed, some of the people have not been able to
hang onto their religion. You've said they had to adjust in
many cases in order to survive. But your temples here , now
Beth El, everybody knows Beth El, and the other one over on
Donaldson, what's that
SG: Agudas •.• Agudas Achim.
GOLDMAN 14
M: I worked with that marvelous man during bicentennial
what was his name? Helen and ?
SG: Oh, Helen and David Jacobson.
HG: Oh, that's Tem91e Beth El.
M: Is that Beth EI?
SG & HG: Yes.
M: Tha t man!
SG: Have you ever seen him recently?
HG: His voice is gone.
SG : His voice is gone . You know that gorgeous voice t hat
he had.
M: What 's the matter with him?
SG: I don't know, but he •.. really has to work at it.
SG: I can't remember the details ••• but David gave a talk
there and it was wonderful. He just pulled together words,
just the right words.
M: He does all the right things. He's so smart.
HG: What had happened was there were possibly six or seven
speakers before him. He's the last one on the program
this had been going on for two, two and a half hours.
M: Everyone would be tired.
HG: And , miraculously he found a common theme that no one
else did and what they were saying , and extemporizing, now.
SG: And he put it all together.
GOLDMAN 15
HG: Made it look like the whole thing had been just so
carefully planned ... (laughter)
M: Well, I'm terribly interested in religion
everyone's religion. I always try to find out in these
interviews. Has it remained a cohesive core ..• central
it has for the Jewish people hasn't it? Isn't your religion
important?
HG: Yes, in a way, and it varies. One of the very
interesting things that has happened is We ... very
recently when we were in Eastern Europe and found the same
thing, even more strongly there. And that is that those
people who experienced the Holocaust either became extremely
religious
M: Oh?
HG: Or became, they •.•
5G: Agnostic.
HG: More or less agnostic.
M: Really?
HG: They are Jews in the sense of ..• secular Jews, that's
the term I want. Right. They contribute to things ••. they
do. Right. But as far as religious services and things of
that sort, there's still, there's that latent fear
apparently.
M: Oh.
5G: Really.
HG: So they almost .•• we were in Yugoslavia and were told
that the older Jews really don't want it to be known that
they are Jewish.
GOLDMAN
SG: And yet they're safe now.
M: I suppose that's such a trauma.
HG: That's right.
M: What a thing to go through! what a terrible thing!
16
HG: So there are different reactions in that way. And then
in much of this country over the years, especially as you
get away from the very big cities, there has been more
emphasis on what is called reform Judaism, liberal Judaism.
Which doesn't put as much emphasis on so many of the ritual
details ••. they ••• observing the kosher food laws and
things of that sort. The feeling being that what is really
important is how you live your life. And that's where they
put the emphasis.
M: Well, there's nothing wrong about that.
HG: Well, no. So my point is that if you get even from the
San Antonio Jewish community , 100 Jewish people together,
you'd probably get about six or seven or eight different
approaches to Judaism from the group.
M: Well , that makes it all the better as far as I'm
concerned, because I have friends who are fundamentalist and
they go right down the line there is nothing here nothing
there.
SG: That's so restrictive.
M: But I like the fact there are more opinions.
SG: There are people wanting more freedom , especially in
reform Judaism and some people misinterpret that and think
that you can do anything you want and not believe in
GOLDMAN
SG: anything, and that's not true at all.
M: No!
17
SG: Not at all true because they're very definite beliefs.
But there's a lot more freedom of choice of just exactly how
you go about it.
M: Yes.
SG: But we are very, both of us are very firmly entrenched
in reform Judaism. And we really live it and feel it and do
it all the way.
HG: There's another aspect that I think you'd be interested
in •. , ties in here. Prior to WWII and maybe just a little
bit after even, most of the Jewish community in Texas was
very reluctant to identify with Palestine.
M: I wondered about that.
HG: And the reason for this was that they did not want
anyone to think that they had divided loyalties. They were
very sensitive to this. See. Now you gotta go back to what
was happening in Germany for example. Where the accusation
was "Well, they're foremost not Germans." France the same
way. So they we r e very sensitive to that. And it's only
the last 15 ••• years •.•.
SG: Oh, more than that.
HG: Well, since we got here, dear.
SG: No. Well, since the, right after the start of the
State of Israel. How many, f o rty years?
HG: 48.
SG: 48.
GOLDMAN 18
HG: Yeah, but it was, ok.
SG: It was 40 years, about the time the ..•
HG: But things have changed very much now and they don't
worry about their perceptions , divided loyalties, anymore.
SG: Things are much more relaxed now and they can be freer
to express their opinions. I think that's the significant
part. But really many of the rabbis in South Texas did not
promote any aid, any support, not really support
M: I know it. I've got Jewish friends and the family is
divided, yes and no. The older one, you know, she was a
little bit disappointed ••• but I come from •• • I've always
been interested in these things.
SG: Oh, it's very interesting. Our community here in the
22 years that we have lived here, we have seen a big
change.
M: Have you?
SG: And following the tradition, the older traditions have
come back.
M: That's intersting.
HG: Selectively.
SG: Selectively, to be sure.
M: Really.
SG: But there's still many more. When we first came here
there weren't that many kids having Bar Mitzvahs.
M: Weren't there?
SG: Now they are having many, many more. And I think it's
being done very nicely. I like the approach on it. But
there's much more openness about it.
GOLDMAN 19
HG: I think one of the other aspects is there is much more
participation of the individual. For awhile it was - the
rabbi read the service, the rabbi gave the sermon, the choir
sang, but the audience, the congregation, didn't. And
gradually now we're getting more participation that way.
And the Bar Mitzvah, that's one of the things, that's an
example of participation.
SG: Yes, it is. And there have been a number of other
changes like the Torah's now taken out on Friday nights and
it never used to be. Traditionally it used to be only
Saturday morning. Now it's being taken out Friday night.
HG: Yes, if you know that the bulk of your congregation is
coming Friday night because they can't give up their
business on Saturday ... so ...
SG: This is one way, we talked about adaption, this is one
way of adapting.
M: Sure.
SG: You know, if you can't . . • join them. And so Friday
night is quite well attended. And Saturday morning is
still, it's not as well attended. It's a very nice service.
But mostly the older people, especially the older women who
are single and who don't like to drive at night, but still
drive, come on a Saturday morning. That's a totally
different service. It's quite, you know, different. But
that's one way of adapting.
HG: That's in the reform. If you went to the orthodox, of
course, that's a different story altogether.
GOLDMAN
SG: That would not be true.
HG: They would observe the tradition.
SG: The orthodox are , I won't say they're like the
fundamentalists , but they have not changed any of the
traditions.
20
M: Haven't they? They do the dietary laws and all that?
SG: Yes, they do.
HG: Strictly.
M: What about the community here? Are there quite a few
here in San Antonio orthodox? ... I don't know any orthodox
Jews, I don't think.
HG: I would guess perhaps, certainly not more than 10% .•.
maybe more like 5%.
M: It's pretty low. Do you have any friends among
orthodox Jews?
HG: Yes, we ... during Hemisfair
SSG: Oh, were they orthodox?
HG: Yes
SG: Well , you know there is a difference. Some people
belong to the orthodox synagogue because they like the
rabbi, or because they like the orthodox traditions , and so
on, but that doesn't mean that they observe all the ••.
HG: Everything Well, I know.
SG: You can't; they don't. We light candles every Friday
night. You know, that's •..
M: I like things like that. You know I'm an Episcopalian
and I like the ritual.
GOLDMAN
SG: I like ritual, too.
M: Love the ritual.
21
SG: But part of it is also the fact that I was raised as an
orthodox
M: Were you?
SG: Yes. And when I married this nice young man, ...
HG: Thank you.
SG: who was raised in a reform family, I t ook on his way of
doing things. But at the same time I couldn't give up all
the t h ings that I had been raised to do.
M: Sure.
SG: Now, I was perfectly happy to abandon the dietary laws
because they were a nuisance to me. And I was also, I mean
it was selective.
M: Well, you had the best of both parts of both worlds.
SG: Right. And he was very happy to have the tradition.
And actually, in hi s family his mother, both of his parents
had been raised in an orthodox household, s o even in their
home there was a little bit of both. There was still some
of that and so we light the candles on Friday night and we
have the Kiddush (blessing) and we have the blessing and the
blessing of the wine and we also have the challah (bread);
we always have that.
M: Do you?
SG: Yes, and then we sit down to the quiet meal. Now, I
have to say this, that in the old days, the Friday night
meal took on different significance because all week you
GOLDMAN 22
SG: didn't have very much to eat. You didn't have anything
special. And on Friday night there was always fish and
there was always the soup and the chicken and they piled it
all on. They had all that. But here you know, in our
culture we live very well all the time. (laugh ter)
M: I know we do.
SG: I mean, it's not as though we save everything up and at
the end of the week we blow it all on a special event.
HG: Well, the point was that if you didn't have e nough for
every day, at least for Friday night.
SG: .•• At least you had it for Friday night.
M: It brought to mind, too, that there were some
sacrifices being made.
SG: And then it was also going back to the immigrant
families .•• the first generation, where the men had to work
very hard all week and many times they came home late at
night after the smaller children were already in bed because
they didn't have 40 hours a week then. And so with the
small, with the children in bed, there was no real time for
the family to be together. But on Friday night and Saturday
morning, the family was together and they ate together and
they did all this together, which we can still do today. I
mean, not all families do that either, now.
M: No.
SG: I mean, a lot of families don't see each other except
one day a week.
HG: Which really
SG: We're coming back to •.•
GOLDMAN 23
HG: Symbolizes one of the major significances of the day of
rest. But you're a free man, when you can take a day to
rest.
SG: That's right. That's right you're •..
HG: Slaves worked 7 days.
M: How do you feel about Folklife Festival now? Have you
worked before OVer there? How do you feel about it?
SG: I think it's wonderful. I love it.
M: What exactly now ... ? Do people come up, do they just
simply come up and buy the food you're selling or do they
ask you about your religion; about your beliefs? Do they
say what is Jewish? Do they ask anything like that? Or is
it. . •
SG: No really. They'll come up and they ask do you have
this instead of such and such. And I have to say that
actually our menu is very limited. We do the things that
can be done best easily. So we do have the honey cake ,
which is traditional food; traditional sweet. And we give
the recipes if they ask for them. And we sell the bagel and
the lox, you know that combination. And a lot of people
already know about that now. I mean in today's world
everybody knows bagels and everybody ... it's available all
over. Well, I won 't say, alright take that back
M: And not everybody knows about lox, either.
SG: A lot of people don't like it.
M: I know it; I know it.
GOLDMAN 24
HG: This year we've changed a little bit. Because up to
now the emphasis has been just on the foods. Make them
available. Some years ago there was a group that was
dancing in that dance pavillion; they were doing some of the
Israeli dances. OK, that was the extent of the cultural
aspect. This year we are introducing ••• , in fact, that's
what she'll be doing.
SG: I'm a story teller.
HG: Telling some of the folk tales. And we had hoped to
intersperse this, we have a nice videotape on how to - step
by step directions, on how to cook some of the Jewish
dishes. Unfortunately we didn't realize that the light is
so bright there that you can't really see the picture until
at night, so we had a little problem with that. Well, we'll
be smarter next year. But I think that the feeling, at
least at the moment, is that we would like to get into some
of the customs without going heavy on religion. I don't
know if you noticed in the booth there, the booth is a
recreation of a Succoth, which is the harvest festival
OK, which is supposed to be open at the top so you can see
the sky at night. So on.
M: Explaining that to people?
HG: Yes, well ...
SG: Those that ask about it, yes.
HG: And we have, for six of the major Jewish holidays, the
color pictures there with little 2 or 3 sentence
descriptions.
M: Oh, that's good.
GOLDMAN 25
HG: Yes, and again, not stressing the religious aspect, but
the customs that are associated with them. Because that's
what to me, what folklife is all about.
M: Sure it is.
Well, I'm glad you're doing that. I wondered about how
you would get that message across. In many ways, in a lot
of the booths, they have the same problem. How are you
going to get •.. It's wonderful to have all that food, but
what does it mean?
SG: There's too much; there's a lot of different food and
maybe sometimes you kind of go overboard. And a lot of
people always think in terms of Jewish food, you know.
Delicatessen, bagel, the lox and all that. But that is not
what it's all about.
M: No, it certainly isn't.
SG: So that why ... this is the first year we've done story
telling.
M: Was that little room with the seats, was that yours?
SG: Yes.
M: And are you telling just Jewish tales, legends, or
what?
5: Yes, they're Eastern European mainly because that's
where most of the folk stories are. And I have to pick
stories that are not too long and are not too involved; not
too many characters. Because then you lose. And most of
the audience are children. I get a lot of children.
M: Do you?
GOLDMAN 26
SG: Right. It's mostly children but I was able to ...
M: Great idea!
HG: The interesting thing is that the stories we're
finding, the adults there, if anything, are enjoying them
more than the kids are.
SG: Yes, the adults are really enjoying them.
M: Whose idea was this?
HG: We got our heads together.
SG: No. No. Let's be fair.
SG: It was our youngest son's idea.
M: Was it?
HG:
M: Everybody should have story telling. I think that's a
wonderful idea.
SG: There are lots of story tellers.
M: All kinds of story tellers; I've got them on tape. But
next to the booth. I've done the Czechs today. Say, they
have some Czech story telling. I've done the Spanish today.
Let's have somebody telling Spanish stories. Wouldn't that
be a great idea?
HG: One thing we didn't think about, we're right next to
all that traffic. We thought with just 20 chairs there,
certainly anyone can talk loud enough to be heard. It isn't
easy. We need a little ...
SG: We need a little PA system there. But it's kind of a
nuisance to hold something; not stationary.
M: They can get 'em now, you notice on television, they're
GOLDMAN 27
M: using microphones with no cord. It must be marvelous
for performers not to have to trail the cord around.
M: You think that Folklife is a good thing?
SG: Wonderful.
HG: Not only the Festival, but the whole concept of the
Institute. It opens peoples' eyes.
M: We have them coming here all year long from that high
up. Little bitty kids come and they get something out of
it; maybe not much, but its a beginning, anyway. It's a lot
of work and everybody compains about the heat but we all
survive each year.
You've done this before; this is not you first year?
SG: We've done it several years.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, ABOUT 43 MINUTES.

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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
FOLKLIFE FESTIVAL
INTERVIEW WITH: Sylvia and Hilton Goldman
DATE: August 7, 1987, Folklife Festival, Jewish
PLACE: O.H. Office , ITC
INTERVIEWER: Esther MacMillan
M: Jewish immigrants in Luling) (1882 Adler) started out as
a peddler with a pack on his back selling needles and thread
and fabrics and whatnot and he was the purveyor o f news. He
went from farmhouse to farmhouse; they fed him; he stayed
overnight. And he finally ... they got over here and he had
to •.• my goodness gracious .•. Adlers ' was the first
gourmet grocery store in town.
SG: Was the grocery store •.. like a deli?
M: Yes, they had a wonderful selection .
SG: No, not ..•
M: It was on Broadway, near Josephine at one .• . when I
came; when we came here it was on ..•
SG: We haven't been here long enough to know that.
M: Well, anyway ... interesting how they started.
HG: OK , sO, these people came originally mostly from
western Europe.
M: Western Europe OK.
SG: The early ones.
GOLDMAN
HG: A few of the Spanish of course came from, like from
Brazil. But they came to the east coast.
M: OK.
2
HG: Don't know how many of them got down here because when
the Spanish and the Portugese got powerful; got influence in
Brazil; they had to flee again. Just as they had to flee
Spain and Portugal because of the Inquisition there.
Then, beginning in the mid 1880's we start ..• mostly
immigrants from Germany. And these were mostly merchants.
And I have looked at the records of the founding of the
first Temple here ... Temple Beth El.
M: Is that the first one here? Beth El?
HG: Yes, this was the first one. And most of the families
that were involved were German Jewish.
M: They were .•. not Polish?
HG: No, the Poles came quite a bit later. OK. Then ...
around 1880 or so the politics in Europe, eastern Europe,
turned very sour for the Jewish community. And now people
were fleeing Russia, fleeing Poland, and the whole Ukraine.
But mostly Russia and Poland. And originally they were
coming to New York City through Staten Island.
SG: Ellis Island.
HG: One of the major .•• Ellis Island, I'm sorry One
of the important financiers, Jewish financiers in New York
City, felt that this was bad in several ways. There were
limited opportunities for them there and in effect they were
creating a new ghetto. They were coming to get away from a
GOLDMAN 3
HG: ghetto and yet they were basically forming one. So
with the aid of a few other people, they formed a venture to
send a lot of these people, instead of New York City when
they came from Europe, to send them to Galveston. And then
they had arranged with a number of people in different
communities there to spread them through Texas, Oklahoma,
basically this area of the country ... Louisiana. And this
worked for about ten years or so.
And then something happened with immigration ..• there
was new ... someone took over and suddenly there's a new
policy. And even though everyone of these people were
guaranteed jobs, they were not going to be public charges;
they were not letting many of them in. They had all sorts
of strange excuses ..• it was a deliberate attempt to keep
them from coming in. So.
M: Was this at the Customs level?
HG: At the Customs level, yeah. So that's when that died
out. But that was the beginning of the influx from eastern
Europe. And most of the Jewish migration since has been
from eastern Europe because there were far more Jewish
people in eastern Europe than in western Europe. But the
immigrants who came primarily from Gel~any were the
merchants. Ah, the people who came from eastern Europe
didn't have the skills for the most part. They were sort of
almost starting from scratch when they came here.
SG: They were more the trades people.
HG: Yeah.
GOLDMAN 4
SG: They were the tailors, the whatever ...
M: They were in the clothing business strongly, weren't
they?
SG: A lot of them were.
M: From the beginning.
SG: Because they had limited skills, limited professions,
limited ways of earning money. And somehow being a tailor
was something that every town needed. So ..•
HG: Yes, it was like with the Levi that created the Levi
pants (jeans, Levis). He came here with a couple bolts of
fabric, and that was it.
M: Did he really? Is that ?
SG: I don't know how authentic it is but ...
M: I often think of Mr. Levi and wish he could see what's
happening. (laughter)
SG: No, that's, yeah that's right .•• what has happened.
But that's the story they tell , that he came with bolts ...
a couple of bolts of fabric and he out in San Francisco
he made some pants for the miners; the gold miners.
M: The gold miners!
SG: Because they needed strong pants and he had this
fabric.
M: Where did he bring the material from, do you know?
SG: (laughter) I think Germany; I think he came from
Germany.
M: What was he doing in San Francisco if he came from
Germany? That's way across the country.
GOLDMAN 5
HG: Well, there was opportunity.
SG: Opportunity; they went where the opportunitie s were.
And I think what's interesting about some o f these
opportunities that opened up for them is that in the course
of that .•. I mean in settling into, in a small town where
they had no ••• very few other Jews, they had to abandon,
they had to be willing to abandon some of their customs,
their traditions. Because they were living sort of in
isolation.
M: Yeah.
SG: And so contrary to what happened, you know what the
Vietnamese told you ... it was very hard to maintain that in
isolation.
HG: For example,
M: It would be har d for them.
HG: The religious Jew who has to have specially ... what
they call Kosher meats.
M: Yeah.
HG: As recently as 25 years ago, when we were living in
Amarillo, this meant bringing in from 400 miles away ...
meats in from 400 miles away. Now what they did in those
days it was impossible. They didn't have refrigeration.
M: That's right.
HG: So, you have to give up.
SG: You had to give up something, if you wanted to settle
in a town and make s ome sort of living for your family. And
so they had to ... there were choices •.•
GOLDMAN 6
M: What were the options?
SG: They had to make choices, exactly.
HG: There's a very different kind of immigrant •.• he was
Henry Castro from Castroville.
M: He was Portugese, wasn't he?
M: Wasn't he a Portugese Jew?
HG: No, he was from Alsace Lorraine.
M: Oh, I thought he was .•• I knew they were Alsatians but
I thought he came from Portugal. He was Alsatian?
SG: I think he was Alsatian.
HG: I think so.
M: I know about him. He did a pretty good job didn't he?
HG: Yeah.
SG: Yeah.
HG: He ran into some poitical problems here and financially
the thing didn't pan out as a business venture; didn't pan
out. But in terms of the other things they had hoped to
accomplish, they did.
M: You know what just occurs to me ••• here's the Jewish
religion and here's that strong Catholic religion from
France and the Alsatians and whatnot and it's such a strong
Catholic community. How did the Jewish people do in
Castroville?
HG: Well, there's a very interesting story there. If you
visited the main square it's like a one-block park and the
original plan was to have churches on all four streets
facing the park. And one of those was to be a Jewish
GOLDMAN
HG: synogogue , which was never built. But one of the
churches has .•. what do they call it, dear?
SG: Shalom House
HG: The Shalom House because they were anticipat ing ...
SG: They still have that.
7
HG: What I call their assembly room adjacent to the church
is called Shalom House.
M: For heaven's sake.
HG: Somehow the Jewish community never materialized there.
M: Not enough of them, maybe.
SG: Didn't pan o ut .
HG: They stayed in San Antonio instead.
M: Oh they did?
HG: Yeah.
M: Well, I had read that they were happier in an urban
su rrounding than they were in a rural.
HG: Because, yeah , because ••.
SG: And partly it's because of the religious affiliations,
too. I mean, they already had a semblance of something
here.
M: People , yeah.
SG: Temple Beth EI is 113 years old.
M: Is it really?
SG: the early settlers in San Antonio were
men of some importance in town, like the Oppenheimers.
M: Sure .
SG : The Oppenheimer family is still there, unincorporated.
GOLDMAN 8
HG: Joskes.
SG: And Joskes.
HG: There's another very interesting family, the Halffs.
And the reason I mention them is that because of
circumstances in Europe, most Jewish people were confined to
the ghettos of the various cities where they lived and you
know these were the beginnings of the high-rise; there's no
room to expand so buildings were three, four, five stories
high. They had to flee at a moment's notice. They were
constrained, there were very few businesses they could get
into, so it was mostly merchandising and a few things like
that.
SG: And banking.
HG: And banking, right.
SG: Don't forget banking.
HG: But somehow the story got around that, in a derogatory
way, Jews were not farmers. Yeah.
M: Sure , I've heard that.
HG: Yeah, and I think it's very interesting that the Halffs
were one of the biggest ranchers in Texas.
M: Were they?
SG: Yes .•• yes they were.
HG: With •.• starting with no experience.
M: Really?
SG: Yeah, they were and of course the Kallisons had a ranch
and Terry other ranch, yes, they also have a store.
M: Well, did you know Annice and Harry?
GOLDMAN
SG: No.
M: But the thing is that whether they ... they made do
didn't they? Out of a bad situation they were pretty
strong. You have a respect for them, don't you?
SG: Yes.
9
HG: Yes, I think though the, there were many of the
pioneers who came here who were very strong people. They
had to be, just to survive.
SG: They had to be really strong. When you think how
uncomfortable it must have been.
M: Yes.
SG: And then again I also want to talk about some of the
people that came to Texas during World War II or even
before, or even during World War II in the process because
some of the refugees were taken, were admitted to South
American countries. Or to Panama, or to Central American
countries . They couldn't get into the United States.
M: Where were they refugees from?
SG: From Hitler's Germany or from Poland.
M: Germany and Poland.
SG: Yes. We had a very dear friend who was from Germany,
from Berlin, and he was on the very last boat to leave
Germany. And the only visa he could get, the only admitting
place, was in Portugal. No, no, Cochabamba (?).
HG: Wait a minute. First of all, it's Portugal and when
they got to Portugal they said nOh, there's been a mistake."
Now this involves about 500 people.
GOLDMAN 10
M: Oh, my.
HG: Who were suddenly without a refuge. So they arranged
for them to go to Uruguay.
SG: No , not Uruguay, Bolivia.
HG: Bolivia.
SG: On condition that they be farmers. And so they became
M: Really.
HG. So became farmers. ( laughter)
SG: And they didn't have to stay there very long as
farmers. They became urban dwellers, because it's pretty
hard to be farmers in that altitude. (laughter)
M: Gosh.
SG: You have to be born into it, I think. But there were
others who also came through Panama or other South American
countries. And then eventually came here. Because they
were not .•. and some through Canada. So you got it both
ways because the United States immigrations were very
limited at that time. Extremely limited.
M: Was it?
SG: Oh, yes.
HG: In fact some even came in by way of Siberia.
SG: China.
HG: Siberia and China , yeah.
M: Really?
SG: Came that way; crossed that way.
HG: They were desperate ; any way to get out.
GOLDMAN 11
M: You know it's a commentary on this country isn't it,
how much people want to get here.
SG: Yes.
HG: Yes.
SG: Really, yeah.
M: And you think
SG: And I think it was also a commentary on immigration at
that time to have excluded people who really needed to corne
in because it was saving their lives.
M: Who understands the Customs?
SG: Yes.
HG: The interesting thing is that in many of the countries
in Europe, the Jews were barely getting by. It was a very
uncomforable position for many years. The German Jews were
sort of an exception because the community there was really
thriving until Hitler carne along. And of course that was
part of the problem. They were doing so well that there
were those who envied what they had.
SG: They didn't want to leave because they kept saying
"Well, this is going to blow over. I mean, nobody's going
to listen to this man forever and ever."
M: Ha ha.
SG: They couldn't see that far down the road. And so they
were stuck until
M: Did you see that documentary that ran for 2 days at
Trinity?
HG: Yes.
GOLDMAN
M: What was it called, Shoah?
HG: Shoah, yes.
M: Wasn't that the most remarkable thing you've ever
seen?
SG: Yes. it really was.
12
M: It was such a beautifully done job. The photography,
the whole approach. I can remember watching the movie that
was called "Holocaust" a long time ago ... oh, it was
several years ago. And it was, well, it was well done, but
-t-h-i-s- was a beautiful piece of work. This will be history.
SG: Totally different.
M: Yeah. And that won't be lost; that nasty bit. There
are people in Germany say , "Why it never happened.
true, you know."
It's not
SG: People in this country say the same thing. That it
never happened.
HG: Yes.
M: How c~ they say that?
SG: I don't know, I can't ••.
HG: Unfortunately, there are even a few college professors
SG: .•• who have said that.
M: That it didn't happen?
HG: Yes.
GOLDMAN
M: I can't believe anyone being that dumb, can you?
SG: I can't either.
M: Oh.
HG : How much evidence do you need, yeah .. ,
SG: You don't •..
M: You see they talk about this business I do ... this
oral history business. I'm getting people talking about
these things you see. I have got the most remarkable
collection ever.
SG: All kinds of military here.
13
M: I didn't set out to get it but there are so darn many
of them. You get one person talking about one episode .,.
one episode .•. put those all together •.. this is stuff,
you know. This is the stuff of history. And you've told me
some things I didn't know before at all. This is
fascinating.
What about now, here we are in Texas. The Jewish
people have come from allover and they landed in Texas.
They've landed not just in San Antonio but all around and
they've managed, some of the people have not been able to
hang onto their religion. You've said they had to adjust in
many cases in order to survive. But your temples here , now
Beth El, everybody knows Beth El, and the other one over on
Donaldson, what's that
SG: Agudas •.• Agudas Achim.
GOLDMAN 14
M: I worked with that marvelous man during bicentennial
what was his name? Helen and ?
SG: Oh, Helen and David Jacobson.
HG: Oh, that's Tem91e Beth El.
M: Is that Beth EI?
SG & HG: Yes.
M: Tha t man!
SG: Have you ever seen him recently?
HG: His voice is gone.
SG : His voice is gone . You know that gorgeous voice t hat
he had.
M: What 's the matter with him?
SG: I don't know, but he •.. really has to work at it.
SG: I can't remember the details ••• but David gave a talk
there and it was wonderful. He just pulled together words,
just the right words.
M: He does all the right things. He's so smart.
HG: What had happened was there were possibly six or seven
speakers before him. He's the last one on the program
this had been going on for two, two and a half hours.
M: Everyone would be tired.
HG: And , miraculously he found a common theme that no one
else did and what they were saying , and extemporizing, now.
SG: And he put it all together.
GOLDMAN 15
HG: Made it look like the whole thing had been just so
carefully planned ... (laughter)
M: Well, I'm terribly interested in religion
everyone's religion. I always try to find out in these
interviews. Has it remained a cohesive core ..• central
it has for the Jewish people hasn't it? Isn't your religion
important?
HG: Yes, in a way, and it varies. One of the very
interesting things that has happened is We ... very
recently when we were in Eastern Europe and found the same
thing, even more strongly there. And that is that those
people who experienced the Holocaust either became extremely
religious
M: Oh?
HG: Or became, they •.•
5G: Agnostic.
HG: More or less agnostic.
M: Really?
HG: They are Jews in the sense of ..• secular Jews, that's
the term I want. Right. They contribute to things ••. they
do. Right. But as far as religious services and things of
that sort, there's still, there's that latent fear
apparently.
M: Oh.
5G: Really.
HG: So they almost .•• we were in Yugoslavia and were told
that the older Jews really don't want it to be known that
they are Jewish.
GOLDMAN
SG: And yet they're safe now.
M: I suppose that's such a trauma.
HG: That's right.
M: What a thing to go through! what a terrible thing!
16
HG: So there are different reactions in that way. And then
in much of this country over the years, especially as you
get away from the very big cities, there has been more
emphasis on what is called reform Judaism, liberal Judaism.
Which doesn't put as much emphasis on so many of the ritual
details ••. they ••• observing the kosher food laws and
things of that sort. The feeling being that what is really
important is how you live your life. And that's where they
put the emphasis.
M: Well, there's nothing wrong about that.
HG: Well, no. So my point is that if you get even from the
San Antonio Jewish community , 100 Jewish people together,
you'd probably get about six or seven or eight different
approaches to Judaism from the group.
M: Well , that makes it all the better as far as I'm
concerned, because I have friends who are fundamentalist and
they go right down the line there is nothing here nothing
there.
SG: That's so restrictive.
M: But I like the fact there are more opinions.
SG: There are people wanting more freedom , especially in
reform Judaism and some people misinterpret that and think
that you can do anything you want and not believe in
GOLDMAN
SG: anything, and that's not true at all.
M: No!
17
SG: Not at all true because they're very definite beliefs.
But there's a lot more freedom of choice of just exactly how
you go about it.
M: Yes.
SG: But we are very, both of us are very firmly entrenched
in reform Judaism. And we really live it and feel it and do
it all the way.
HG: There's another aspect that I think you'd be interested
in •. , ties in here. Prior to WWII and maybe just a little
bit after even, most of the Jewish community in Texas was
very reluctant to identify with Palestine.
M: I wondered about that.
HG: And the reason for this was that they did not want
anyone to think that they had divided loyalties. They were
very sensitive to this. See. Now you gotta go back to what
was happening in Germany for example. Where the accusation
was "Well, they're foremost not Germans." France the same
way. So they we r e very sensitive to that. And it's only
the last 15 ••• years •.•.
SG: Oh, more than that.
HG: Well, since we got here, dear.
SG: No. Well, since the, right after the start of the
State of Israel. How many, f o rty years?
HG: 48.
SG: 48.
GOLDMAN 18
HG: Yeah, but it was, ok.
SG: It was 40 years, about the time the ..•
HG: But things have changed very much now and they don't
worry about their perceptions , divided loyalties, anymore.
SG: Things are much more relaxed now and they can be freer
to express their opinions. I think that's the significant
part. But really many of the rabbis in South Texas did not
promote any aid, any support, not really support
M: I know it. I've got Jewish friends and the family is
divided, yes and no. The older one, you know, she was a
little bit disappointed ••• but I come from •• • I've always
been interested in these things.
SG: Oh, it's very interesting. Our community here in the
22 years that we have lived here, we have seen a big
change.
M: Have you?
SG: And following the tradition, the older traditions have
come back.
M: That's intersting.
HG: Selectively.
SG: Selectively, to be sure.
M: Really.
SG: But there's still many more. When we first came here
there weren't that many kids having Bar Mitzvahs.
M: Weren't there?
SG: Now they are having many, many more. And I think it's
being done very nicely. I like the approach on it. But
there's much more openness about it.
GOLDMAN 19
HG: I think one of the other aspects is there is much more
participation of the individual. For awhile it was - the
rabbi read the service, the rabbi gave the sermon, the choir
sang, but the audience, the congregation, didn't. And
gradually now we're getting more participation that way.
And the Bar Mitzvah, that's one of the things, that's an
example of participation.
SG: Yes, it is. And there have been a number of other
changes like the Torah's now taken out on Friday nights and
it never used to be. Traditionally it used to be only
Saturday morning. Now it's being taken out Friday night.
HG: Yes, if you know that the bulk of your congregation is
coming Friday night because they can't give up their
business on Saturday ... so ...
SG: This is one way, we talked about adaption, this is one
way of adapting.
M: Sure.
SG: You know, if you can't . . • join them. And so Friday
night is quite well attended. And Saturday morning is
still, it's not as well attended. It's a very nice service.
But mostly the older people, especially the older women who
are single and who don't like to drive at night, but still
drive, come on a Saturday morning. That's a totally
different service. It's quite, you know, different. But
that's one way of adapting.
HG: That's in the reform. If you went to the orthodox, of
course, that's a different story altogether.
GOLDMAN
SG: That would not be true.
HG: They would observe the tradition.
SG: The orthodox are , I won't say they're like the
fundamentalists , but they have not changed any of the
traditions.
20
M: Haven't they? They do the dietary laws and all that?
SG: Yes, they do.
HG: Strictly.
M: What about the community here? Are there quite a few
here in San Antonio orthodox? ... I don't know any orthodox
Jews, I don't think.
HG: I would guess perhaps, certainly not more than 10% .•.
maybe more like 5%.
M: It's pretty low. Do you have any friends among
orthodox Jews?
HG: Yes, we ... during Hemisfair
SSG: Oh, were they orthodox?
HG: Yes
SG: Well , you know there is a difference. Some people
belong to the orthodox synagogue because they like the
rabbi, or because they like the orthodox traditions , and so
on, but that doesn't mean that they observe all the ••.
HG: Everything Well, I know.
SG: You can't; they don't. We light candles every Friday
night. You know, that's •..
M: I like things like that. You know I'm an Episcopalian
and I like the ritual.
GOLDMAN
SG: I like ritual, too.
M: Love the ritual.
21
SG: But part of it is also the fact that I was raised as an
orthodox
M: Were you?
SG: Yes. And when I married this nice young man, ...
HG: Thank you.
SG: who was raised in a reform family, I t ook on his way of
doing things. But at the same time I couldn't give up all
the t h ings that I had been raised to do.
M: Sure.
SG: Now, I was perfectly happy to abandon the dietary laws
because they were a nuisance to me. And I was also, I mean
it was selective.
M: Well, you had the best of both parts of both worlds.
SG: Right. And he was very happy to have the tradition.
And actually, in hi s family his mother, both of his parents
had been raised in an orthodox household, s o even in their
home there was a little bit of both. There was still some
of that and so we light the candles on Friday night and we
have the Kiddush (blessing) and we have the blessing and the
blessing of the wine and we also have the challah (bread);
we always have that.
M: Do you?
SG: Yes, and then we sit down to the quiet meal. Now, I
have to say this, that in the old days, the Friday night
meal took on different significance because all week you
GOLDMAN 22
SG: didn't have very much to eat. You didn't have anything
special. And on Friday night there was always fish and
there was always the soup and the chicken and they piled it
all on. They had all that. But here you know, in our
culture we live very well all the time. (laugh ter)
M: I know we do.
SG: I mean, it's not as though we save everything up and at
the end of the week we blow it all on a special event.
HG: Well, the point was that if you didn't have e nough for
every day, at least for Friday night.
SG: .•• At least you had it for Friday night.
M: It brought to mind, too, that there were some
sacrifices being made.
SG: And then it was also going back to the immigrant
families .•• the first generation, where the men had to work
very hard all week and many times they came home late at
night after the smaller children were already in bed because
they didn't have 40 hours a week then. And so with the
small, with the children in bed, there was no real time for
the family to be together. But on Friday night and Saturday
morning, the family was together and they ate together and
they did all this together, which we can still do today. I
mean, not all families do that either, now.
M: No.
SG: I mean, a lot of families don't see each other except
one day a week.
HG: Which really
SG: We're coming back to •.•
GOLDMAN 23
HG: Symbolizes one of the major significances of the day of
rest. But you're a free man, when you can take a day to
rest.
SG: That's right. That's right you're •..
HG: Slaves worked 7 days.
M: How do you feel about Folklife Festival now? Have you
worked before OVer there? How do you feel about it?
SG: I think it's wonderful. I love it.
M: What exactly now ... ? Do people come up, do they just
simply come up and buy the food you're selling or do they
ask you about your religion; about your beliefs? Do they
say what is Jewish? Do they ask anything like that? Or is
it. . •
SG: No really. They'll come up and they ask do you have
this instead of such and such. And I have to say that
actually our menu is very limited. We do the things that
can be done best easily. So we do have the honey cake ,
which is traditional food; traditional sweet. And we give
the recipes if they ask for them. And we sell the bagel and
the lox, you know that combination. And a lot of people
already know about that now. I mean in today's world
everybody knows bagels and everybody ... it's available all
over. Well, I won 't say, alright take that back
M: And not everybody knows about lox, either.
SG: A lot of people don't like it.
M: I know it; I know it.
GOLDMAN 24
HG: This year we've changed a little bit. Because up to
now the emphasis has been just on the foods. Make them
available. Some years ago there was a group that was
dancing in that dance pavillion; they were doing some of the
Israeli dances. OK, that was the extent of the cultural
aspect. This year we are introducing ••• , in fact, that's
what she'll be doing.
SG: I'm a story teller.
HG: Telling some of the folk tales. And we had hoped to
intersperse this, we have a nice videotape on how to - step
by step directions, on how to cook some of the Jewish
dishes. Unfortunately we didn't realize that the light is
so bright there that you can't really see the picture until
at night, so we had a little problem with that. Well, we'll
be smarter next year. But I think that the feeling, at
least at the moment, is that we would like to get into some
of the customs without going heavy on religion. I don't
know if you noticed in the booth there, the booth is a
recreation of a Succoth, which is the harvest festival
OK, which is supposed to be open at the top so you can see
the sky at night. So on.
M: Explaining that to people?
HG: Yes, well ...
SG: Those that ask about it, yes.
HG: And we have, for six of the major Jewish holidays, the
color pictures there with little 2 or 3 sentence
descriptions.
M: Oh, that's good.
GOLDMAN 25
HG: Yes, and again, not stressing the religious aspect, but
the customs that are associated with them. Because that's
what to me, what folklife is all about.
M: Sure it is.
Well, I'm glad you're doing that. I wondered about how
you would get that message across. In many ways, in a lot
of the booths, they have the same problem. How are you
going to get •.. It's wonderful to have all that food, but
what does it mean?
SG: There's too much; there's a lot of different food and
maybe sometimes you kind of go overboard. And a lot of
people always think in terms of Jewish food, you know.
Delicatessen, bagel, the lox and all that. But that is not
what it's all about.
M: No, it certainly isn't.
SG: So that why ... this is the first year we've done story
telling.
M: Was that little room with the seats, was that yours?
SG: Yes.
M: And are you telling just Jewish tales, legends, or
what?
5: Yes, they're Eastern European mainly because that's
where most of the folk stories are. And I have to pick
stories that are not too long and are not too involved; not
too many characters. Because then you lose. And most of
the audience are children. I get a lot of children.
M: Do you?
GOLDMAN 26
SG: Right. It's mostly children but I was able to ...
M: Great idea!
HG: The interesting thing is that the stories we're
finding, the adults there, if anything, are enjoying them
more than the kids are.
SG: Yes, the adults are really enjoying them.
M: Whose idea was this?
HG: We got our heads together.
SG: No. No. Let's be fair.
SG: It was our youngest son's idea.
M: Was it?
HG:
M: Everybody should have story telling. I think that's a
wonderful idea.
SG: There are lots of story tellers.
M: All kinds of story tellers; I've got them on tape. But
next to the booth. I've done the Czechs today. Say, they
have some Czech story telling. I've done the Spanish today.
Let's have somebody telling Spanish stories. Wouldn't that
be a great idea?
HG: One thing we didn't think about, we're right next to
all that traffic. We thought with just 20 chairs there,
certainly anyone can talk loud enough to be heard. It isn't
easy. We need a little ...
SG: We need a little PA system there. But it's kind of a
nuisance to hold something; not stationary.
M: They can get 'em now, you notice on television, they're
GOLDMAN 27
M: using microphones with no cord. It must be marvelous
for performers not to have to trail the cord around.
M: You think that Folklife is a good thing?
SG: Wonderful.
HG: Not only the Festival, but the whole concept of the
Institute. It opens peoples' eyes.
M: We have them coming here all year long from that high
up. Little bitty kids come and they get something out of
it; maybe not much, but its a beginning, anyway. It's a lot
of work and everybody compains about the heat but we all
survive each year.
You've done this before; this is not you first year?
SG: We've done it several years.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, ABOUT 43 MINUTES.