_________________Licenses for my work...You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.

I have a lot of spare time (yay, disablementy things) so I can try to come up with an AI, or figure out how they work and add to a free licence one that allows derivitive works.I didn't know people actively used AIs, as all the ones I have used make very predictable moves, mixed with sometimes illogical or broken routes, I at least stopped using them for that reason.

@Redirect Left: Fixing or improving an existing AI would be more useful I think. We have lots of AIs, but very few maintainers. That also gives you a head start, as you have to do less ground-work.

Well, i'll have a look around, and if I find one that users seem to particularly enjoy that I can add to or resolve a glitch with (it'll take a while to learn AI code anyway) I'll see if it allows derivitive works / outside corrections, improvements & additions.

I just did some testing with the current competitive AIs and these were my results (Version 1.9)

I tested on the 3 default maps (Not toyland) with vanilla assets onlyStart year was either 1950 or 1970I kept games going for around 5 - 7 years Max loan was $500,000

Excellent- Both consistently performed very wellNoCABAIAI

Good - Sometimes performed well and sometimes very well (Unfortunately 3 of them crashed occasionally)Wright AI - depended on the presence of large towns/citiesChooChooGrinchios - crashed Fast Transport- crashedTracAI - Crashed

Medium - Usually performed pretty well. Better than those belowAdmiralAITrans

Average - turned profits but did not perform to the levels of those aboveTerrontrAInsWormAI

Low - stayed in business or went out of businessRailwAICluelessPathzillaOTVI -crashedDenver & Rio Grande -crashedNoNoCAB

Failed - often went out of businessRythorn -crased quicklyCivilAI

Last edited by mwyeoh on Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm sorry to hear CivilAI performed so poorly for you. I'm currently working on a major update for OpenTTD 1.9, so if you have any example savegames in which the AI is struggling I'd be interested to see them.

I would be interested in savegames too.For WormAI my guess would be that it is usually not the fastest starter and will perform better on longer runs.For NoNoCAB it's more surprising. In general it should perform similar to NoCAB since it is based on that.

What limits on vehicles did you have, ai difficulty setting, size of map, terrain and amount of water are settings that might influence performance of ai's.

@Redirect Left: Fixing or improving an existing AI would be more useful I think. We have lots of AIs, but very few maintainers. That also gives you a head start, as you have to do less ground-work.

Well, i'll have a look around, and if I find one that users seem to particularly enjoy that I can add to or resolve a glitch with (it'll take a while to learn AI code anyway) I'll see if it allows derivitive works / outside corrections, improvements & additions.

Unfortunately I had to quickly give up on this idea, as i found the way AIs are coded to be very unituitive and hard to figure out exactly. I hope in the future, the method of implementing AI is improved to be a lot easier to do. Building a fully working and decent AI that builds proper networks and is very profitable seems to be more effort than the pleasure you'd get out of it at the end, at least from what I saw.

I hope in the future, the method of implementing AI is improved to be a lot easier to do.

It's a C-like scripting language - it's hard to imagine how it could be any simpler. Granted, the way 'real' programmers have structured their AI is often impenetrable to naive rubes like you and me, but that's not the language's fault.

@Redirect Left: Fixing or improving an existing AI would be more useful I think. We have lots of AIs, but very few maintainers. That also gives you a head start, as you have to do less ground-work.

Well, i'll have a look around, and if I find one that users seem to particularly enjoy that I can add to or resolve a glitch with (it'll take a while to learn AI code anyway) I'll see if it allows derivitive works / outside corrections, improvements & additions.

Unfortunately I had to quickly give up on this idea, as i found the way AIs are coded to be very unituitive and hard to figure out exactly.

Yes, they are, but at the same time they are not.The main reason why you find the code unintuitive and hard to read is because you didn't write it. Code follows the logic of its author, and everybody has a slightly different logic. It takes time and effort to figure out what logic the code has and to make that your own. In my experience, if you stick with studying it, you'll start to see patterns at some point, and then slowly code starts to make sense.

Of course this also goes in the other direction. Code that you or I write looks unintuitive and hard to understand to most others. It's not bad code, it's just how it works.

Quote:

I hope in the future, the method of implementing AI is improved to be a lot easier to do. Building a fully working and decent AI that builds proper networks and is very profitable seems to be more effort than the pleasure you'd get out of it at the end, at least from what I saw.

I hope too that it gets easier, but I don't expect that to happen in my lifetime tbh unless you throw a lot of CPU power at it (ie deep learning and such). Writing a good AI is just a hard problem.Ever tried to find a computation that understands when a network is "proper and very profitable"?

For most AI authors, I think the end-result is less relevant, but the journey or path to the end is. The pleasure of learning new things, and finding how to fix that problem in a nice way.

_________________Being a OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.Also, other OpenTTD developers may have different opinions.

I think it might be i was trying to look at the ChooChoo AI because it (in my opinion) builds the best networks similar to natural players. So it was quite a lot of code, that is no doubt perfectly organised to the author.

Unfortunately based on that, it takes a lot of effort to get a network builder that is competent. So huge props to the author of that. A few AIs don't specifically note the licence they're released underfor editing / improving and releasing either so i can learn that way. I tend to learn code by seeing and editing existing pieces of work, rather than from scratch.

I would be interested in savegames too.For WormAI my guess would be that it is usually not the fastest starter and will perform better on longer runs.For NoNoCAB it's more surprising. In general it should perform similar to NoCAB since it is based on that.

What limits on vehicles did you have, ai difficulty setting, size of map, terrain and amount of water are settings that might influence performance of ai's.

Edit:Is Grinchios a new AI. I don't see it in the online content.

PikkaBird wrote:

I'm sorry to hear CivilAI performed so poorly for you. I'm currently working on a major update for OpenTTD 1.9, so if you have any example savegames in which the AI is struggling I'd be interested to see them.

For CivilAI, it seemed that it was a little reluctant to start routes as it was always searching for the best one. Unfortunately, since I usually put the AIs up against 5-6 others, they were crowded out by more aggressive AII was surprised about NoNoCAB too, that the original version seemed to perform much better in which routes to go forWormAI was actually pretty good, just not as good as the ones listed above itI think grinchios is listed in the AI page under mungo (But I cant remember)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum