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to change for the better....national debt is nearly 16 trillion, unemployment is nearly 9%(depending on what you go by), Federal Reserve continues to run this country and milk it dry. Civil liberties have been compromised. we are fighting 2 non-declared wars that have been wasting lives and funds for years.

to change for the better....national debt is nearly 16 trillion, unemployment is nearly 9%(depending on what you go by), Federal Reserve continues to run this country and milk it dry. Civil liberties have been compromised. we are fighting 2 non-declared wars that have been wasting lives and funds for years.

I agree with all of your points except the one about civil liberties. This country has so many liberties it doesn't know what to do with them and they constantly get abused and are costly to us all.

to change for the better....national debt is nearly 16 trillion, unemployment is nearly 9%(depending on what you go by), Federal Reserve continues to run this country and milk it dry. Civil liberties have been compromised. we are fighting 2 non-declared wars that have been wasting lives and funds for years.

And now you're telling us what you mean when you say "change," which isn't going to be what I mean when I say "change," and what ultimately makes your question pointless.

Why hide all of this under the label of "change," instead of just coming out and asking people if that's what they want?

And now you're telling us what you mean when you say "change," which isn't going to be what I mean when I say "change," and what ultimately makes your question pointless.

Why hide all of this under the label of "change," instead of just coming out and asking people if that's what they want?

This.

Change is unique to each person. For example, I believed that we needed to change the way our country offered health care and I believed that the best change would be to a universal healthcare system. That likely isn't the type of change that everyone would agree with, but I view that as the most optimal solution.

Change is unique to each person. For example, I believed that we needed to change the way our country offered health care and I believed that the best change would be to a universal healthcare system. That likely isn't the type of change that everyone would agree with, but I view that as the most optimal solution.

Exactly.

Parts of this country took a step towards the "change" I'd like to see on election night - legalizing marijuana and gay marriage in multiple states - but I don't know that either of those things would be on his list of "change."

So, sure, most people support "change." But that doesn't really mean a whole lot.

First, as natepro said you have to define "change", but I think the majority on both sides and Independents are duped into believing that a vote for one of the two parties is a vote for some form of change.

The narrative may differ, but in the end a vote for mainstream D's and R's is a vote of approval of the status quo. There are endless examples of policies that have not changed for decades, regardless of which party is in power.

There is no status quo. Things will change. It's just a matter of how, and who shapes those changes. Pretending there is a maintainable status quo is a pernicious illusion that causes serious problems.

There is no status quo. Things will change. It's just a matter of how, and who shapes those changes. Pretending there is a maintainable status quo is a pernicious illusion that causes serious problems.

How so? We've maintained the same foreign policy, spending, education system, war on drugs, corporate welfare, etc. for decades.

Although we both agree many of these are unsustainable, I would argue that what I've listed(among other things) are the "status quo", up until they either fail or are changed.

There's a lot of things I'd change. I'd change and reverse Obama Care, I'd change and say gays and not religious people can have a civil union which is the exact same thing as marriage with 100% same thing. (I would have a civil union). Id' change the tax code, I'd change the weed laws and legalize it, I'd change the speed limits up. I'd change the way schools to a voucher system completely.

How so? We've maintained the same foreign policy, spending, education system, war on drugs, corporate welfare, etc. for decades.

Although we both agree many of these are unsustainable, I would argue that what I've listed(among other things) are the "status quo", up until they either fail or are changed.

I guess we get into what degree of change we're talking about. I'd argue that repealing Glass-Steagal and associated regulations count as change, and certainly brought more change. I'd argue that getting rid of the estate tax and slashing capital gains tax rates was change in itself, and has resulted in much greater concentration of wealth -- again change. On the other side of the coin, 50 million Americans are in the process of obtaining health insurance for the first time. Surely that counts as change.

I guess we get into what degree of change we're talking about. I'd argue that repealing Glass-Steagal and associated regulations count as change, and certainly brought more change. I'd argue that getting rid of the estate tax and slashing capital gains tax rates was change in itself, and has resulted in much greater concentration of wealth -- again change. On the other side of the coin, 50 million Americans are in the process of obtaining health insurance for the first time. Surely that counts as change.

Fair enough. I agree with all your examples, certainly.

I guess it all come downs to definition, how much "change" truly affects the status quo.