Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.

Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime. They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities. They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Yeah, as much as I like to browbeat Christianity about the Catholic Church being a kleptocratic corporation and Protestant evangelicals trying to turn the clock back 100 years in the southeast and inspire theocratic feudalism in parts of Africa, not every Christian is contributing to the obstruction of societal progress. I'm totally cool with Quakers.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message." The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror. But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected? Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

Yes, terror is terror. But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected? Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

How effective was he? Opposition to gays was part of his motive, but look how well that worked out for him.

So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

miss diminutive:So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

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When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree. Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc. But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.

Diogenes:miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

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When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree. Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc. But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.

Nothing boosts recruitment like a holy war. (whether real or perceived, I suppose)

But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Nana's Vibrator:That settles it. If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist. The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it. If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

mbillips:"Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?

Well, we've come full circle. Now that we're actually looking at what caused stuff, and how to prevent it, the gun nuts just look silly when they say "Oh, I'm sure it's the videogames that made Adam Lamza crazy." Just like they would if they said "Y'know, I'm sure gay marriage had something to do with pushing Tamerlan Tsarnaev off the deep end."

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

You are unfit for fark. Don't think, just jerk your knees, is the way to go here.

Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

...have you ever seen what happens to someone falsely accused of pedophilia?

...have you ever seen what happens to anyone who dares defend anyone accused of pedophilia?

...have you ever seen what happens to the innocent neighbors of anyone who dares defend anyone accused of pedophilia?

Now replace Islam with pedophilia, and you've got a glimpse. And the vengeance vulturing is even worse when they're right, as the Penn State affair can attest to.

I'm hearing a lot of officials saying, pretty early in the investigation, that they were acting alone, and no, I don't give much credibility to the younger brother's statement at this point. Have they honestly ruled out the older brother using his overseas trip for terrorist training? I thought that was a major facet of the investigation.

Magorn:While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message." The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror. But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected? Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging

miss diminutive:Magorn: While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.

"I'm going to make you hurt like I hurt, and experience sadness like I experience sadness."

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

I'm in no way taking sides with Westboro, but exactly how many people have they blown up?

Magorn:Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

I think his uncle's description was best. He was a loser, and did what many men in their twenties who are losers do - resorted to violence.