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The Museum’s Collections document the fate of Holocaust victims, survivors, rescuers, liberators, and others through artifacts, documents, photos, films, books, personal stories, and more. Search below to view digital records and find material that you can access at our library and at the Shapell Center.

Faivel Ziegelbaum

The story of Szmuel (Artur) Ziegelbaum through his brother, Faivel. Faivel reads his brother's letters and occasionally offers his own reflections. This interview took place in Tel Aviv.

FILM ID 3882 -- Zygielbojm Camera Rolls 1-11 In Israel, in several takes, Faivel Zygielboim reads a letter which his brother, Szmuel (Artur) Zygielboim wrote, preceding his suicide. In the letters, Artur describes the powerlessness and guilt he feels at the conditions his family and thousands of others live in back home in Europe. After Artur wrote letters to Churchill and other leaders of Allied countries to no avail, he committed suicide. One of the last letters Artur received came from Jan Karski, begging for help from the rest of the world. Artur tried to convince those in positions of power to help, and even made a radio broadcast over the BBC, but his appeals fell on deaf ears. His last words were a plea to the collective human conscience. The last cable sent to Artur graphically describing the events of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, was likely never read by him as he committed suicide the night it was written on May 11-12, 1943. Faivel reads his brothers suicide letter. In his letter, he accuses the Allied countries for not making enough effort to help the Jews, and through passive observation labels them as accomplices. His suicide was in protest to the mass indifference of the world. At a family reunion in 1969, Faivel and his family found a photograph of Artur's daughter and wife after they had been murdered, possibly in Treblinka.

FILM ID 3883 – Zygielbojm CoupesSilent shots of Faivel Zygielbojm in his apartment in Tel Aviv, Israel. CU on bookshelf; mostly books in Hebrew. Highlights Adam Czerniakow’s Warsaw Ghetto Diary. Pan of spines on bookshelf, across to picture frames of different drawings and family photographs. The camera stops on a black and white portrait of Szmul Zygielbojm. Zoom outwards to capture the entire wall, with Faivel seated on a couch in front of the wall, looking through a book. Surrounding him on the couch are his brother’s letters and other manuscripts. He looks up at the bookshelf and smokes a cigarette pensively. He looks over the book, open on the couch next to him. He smokes and flips through the book. Image cuts out at 3:26 and comes back at 3:35. CU on Faviel’s face as he reads. CU on his hands, flipping through letters from his brother. CU on face reading. Pan down to the letter in his hands. Faivel smokes and reads the letter to himself. CU on a handwritten letter from Szmul, dated April 6, 1941 from New York. Pan of the letter. CU on portrait of Szmul. Fuzzy image of a hand covering the camera lens. Image cuts out at 6:18.

Claude Lanzmann was born in Paris to a Jewish family that immigrated to France from Eastern Europe. He attended the Lycée Blaise-Pascal in Clermont-Ferrand. His family went into hiding during World War II. He joined the French resistance at the age of 18 and fought in the Auvergne. Lanzmann opposed the French war in Algeria and signed a 1960 antiwar petition. From 1952 to 1959 he lived with Simone de Beauvoir. In 1963 he married French actress Judith Magre. Later, he married Angelika Schrobsdorff, a German-Jewish writer, and then Dominique Petithory in 1995. He is the father of Angélique Lanzmann, born in 1950, and Félix Lanzmann (1993-2017). Lanzmann's most renowned work, Shoah, is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. He began interviewing survivors, historians, witnesses, and perpetrators in 1973 and finished editing the film in 1985. In 2009, Lanzmann published his memoirs under the title "Le lièvre de Patagonie" (The Patagonian Hare). He was chief editor of the journal "Les Temps Modernes," which was founded by Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir, until his death on July 5, 2018. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/postscript/claude-lanzmann-changed-the-history-of-filmmaking-with-shoah

From 1974 to 1984, Corinna Coulmas was the assistant director to Claude Lanzmann for his film "Shoah." She was born in Hamburg in 1948. She studied theology, philosophy, and sociology at the Sorbonne and Hebrew language and Jewish culture at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and INALCO in Paris. She now lives in France and publishes about the Five Senses. http://www.corinna-coulmas.eu/english/home-page.html

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the Shoah outtakes from Claude Lanzmann on October 11, 1996. The Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection is now jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem - The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority.

Note

Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating survivors, perpetrators, and eyewitnesses for his nine and a half hour film Shoah released in 1985. Without archival footage, Shoah weaves together extraordinary testimonies to render the step-by-step machinery of the destruction of European Jewry. Critics have called it "a masterpiece" and a "monument against forgetting." The Claude Lanzmann SHOAH Collection consists of roughly 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming.Members of the Zygielbojm family pose at the dinner table in Warsaw in 1936. Pictured standing behind, from left to right, are: Avraham and Faivel Zygielbojm. Seated, from left to right, are: Reuven; Henia, and Hava Zygielbojm. http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=1096954&search=&index=7

Permission required. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, State of Israel

Conditions on Use

Third party must sign USHMM's SHOAH outtakes film license agreement in order to reproduce and use film footage.

Record last modified: 2018-11-27 11:05:57
This page: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn1005024

Also in Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating and interviewing survivors, perpetrators, eyewitnesses, and scholars for the nine-and-a-half-hour film SHOAH released in 1985. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the archive of SHOAH outtakes from Mr. Lanzmann on October 11, 1996, and have since been carrying out the painstaking work necessary to reconstruct and preserve the films, which consist of 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming. The collection is jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem. SHOAH is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. It weaves together extraordinary testimonies to describe the step-by-step machinery implemented to destroy European Jewry. Critics call it “a sheer masterpiece” and a “monument against forgetting.”

Tadeusz Pankiewicz was a Pole who ran a pharmacy within the confines of the Krakow ghetto, refusing the Germans' offer to let him relocate to another part of the city. He aided Jews by providing free medication and allowing the pharmacy to be used as a meeting place for resisters.
FILM ID 3220 -- Camera Rolls #1-2, 3-4, and 5-7
01:00:09 CR 1,2: Lanzmann and Pankiewicz stand in a Krakow street. They spend most of the interview in different parts of the Plac Zgody (now Plac Bohakerow Getta), from which Jews were deported from the Krakow ghetto. They begin walking. Pankiewicz tells Lanzmann that in 1941 he got the order to run a pharmacy within the ghetto. The Germans first required him to prove that he was not Jewish. From the window of his pharmacy he could see all the deportations from Plac Zgody and the horrible treatment meted out to the Jews. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz to describe exactly what he saw. They are standing on Targowa street, the street where the Jews were gathered for deportation, and where Pankiewics's pharmacy was situated. White screen with some audio from 01:03:16 to 01:04:02. The first slate says "Warsaw" but the interview is clearly in Krakow. CR 2 Lanzmann and Pankiewicz are sitting outdoors on a bench on Plac Lwowska in front of a constuction site (construction of a tram line?). Lanzmann says that an Aryan-run pharmacy in the ghetto was one of a kind. Pankiewicz says that he lived at the Apotheke, because he had to be available day and night. He says that after the liquidation [in March 1943], when the Jews would come from Plaszow, his pharmacy acted as a restaurant, supplying food to them. He talks about the division of the ghetto into two parts, part A (where those still capable of work lived) and part B (where those to be deported lived). He describes the barbed wire surrounding the ghetto and the guarded gates at the edges. Lanzmann asks him to describe the "Grosse Aktion" on the Plac Zgody. Pankiewicz says that Plac Zgody was the main deportation point and that he saw many terrible things from the window of his pharmacy. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews were hopeless and Pankiewicz says they were resigned. He says that when the liquidation came he himself did not eat for three days: he could not go out and he had always eaten in a Jewish restaurant. Pankiewicz says that during the first deportation, in June 1941, the Jews thought that they were being resettled in the Ukraine. However, by the time of the October 28, 1942 deportation the Jews knew that deportation meant death. A woman had written a letter to her relatives, telling them that she was in Belzec. Shots of people walking through the construction site. No audio. 01:16:08. Close-up of sign reading 17 Plac Zgody . Another plaque, perhaps commemorating the location.
02:00:00 CR 3,4: Long shot of the pharmacy. The camera pulls in to reveal Pankiewicz standing outside the pharmacy in a white coat. The pharmacy was located on Targowa Street. Close-ups of Pankiewicz. Shots of Pankiewicz inside the pharmacy. The slate now reads "Krakow." Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz why he wrote a book about his experiences. Pankiewicz says that he wanted to answer the many questions that were put to him after the war, to explain why he was not liquidated himself, and to tell those who had no contact with the ghetto what it was like. A confusing passage about Germans who were arrested immediately after the liquidation of the ghetto and about rescuing some Jews. Pankiewicz talks again about how he sold food, not medicine, to the Jewish laborers from Plaszow, because they were healthy but wanted food. Pankiewicz says that he had Jewish friends even before the war and that he only thinks in terms of good people and bad people, not Jew and non-Jew. He talks about the establishment of the ghetto and his reaction to it (the dates he uses are not consistent). He says he and his family had lived in the location where the ghetto was established, and he talks about hiding Jews in his room during the ghetto's liquidation (or during a deportation?). He says he received a letter from a woman in Israel who claimed to have hidden in the pharmacy, but he did not remember her. Lanzmann asks him about suicide in the ghetto. Pankiewicz says that there were some who did commit suicide, once they knew they were going to be deported. He says that the Jews knew what deportation/evacuation meant and so did he. News and letters came from Belzec. Lanzmann asks him why, in his opinion, if the Jews knew what would happen to them, did they not resist? He says the Jews thought that maybe they would actually survive, that the situation was not as bad as it was in Warsaw. He said many of the Jews had connection to the Polish side and were not as isolated as Warsaw Jews were. He said Jews could leave the ghetto at times but had no place to go. Helping Jews was an automatic death sentence, and the Jews often wanted to take their entire families with them.
03:00:00 CR 5, 6, 7: Pankiewicz knew of several cases where Poles helped Jews after the liquidation of the ghetto, but it was not possible to help entire families. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz again why he thought the Jews did not fight when they were deported. He says he is not speaking of the Jewish resistance, but of the people who were trapped in the ghetto and deported. Pankiewicz say that the Jews were so resigned, had been through so much terror and horror, that they simply wanted an end. He says that if a wife was deported a husband and children might follow voluntarily. Yet at the same time the Jews maintained some small hope that they might not be murdered, might be able to help each other survive. Lanzmann asks about the role of the Jewish police. He says that there were good and bad police and gives an example of two policemen who he knew in school and who helped him to smuggle a Jew out of Krakow. He talks about various members of the Jewish Council, including Rosenzweig. Lanzmann points out that they were all liquidated in the end. Lanzmann asks again whether his burden was too much to bear during these times. Pankiewicz says no, although he was so bound up with the Jews, that he believed that what happened to them would also happen to him. He says that the Jews have built him up into a kind of legend, but it is not true. He did not know at the time what he was doing, he simply did it. Lanzmann asks him whether he was married at the time and he says no. He says he had dealings with only a few Germans. A new reel begins and Pankiewicz returns to the fact that the Jews have built a small legend out of him, but that he only did what one human should do for other humans who were in a tragic situation. 03:15:02 - 03:17:02 various shots of Pankiewicz.

Four rolls of location filming of scenes in and near Krakow, Poland for SHOAH.
FILM ID 3891 -- White 85 Nisko 1-7
00:20 A gloved hand holds up "Nisko 1” in front of a snowy backdrop. Snowy fields in a rural area. Simple wooden fence with low, grey buildings on the horizon. "Nisko 2” Snowy fields. Riverbank. “Nisko 2” The river. Snowy fields, with one tree, bare of leaves, in the middle. Two trucks drive along a road in the far-off horizon. More trees and the river. “Nisko 3” The river. Another snowy field. Trees; some appear to still have leaves. Patches of green grass are visible through the snow. Road sign: “Nisko 4, Rzeszow 63.” Paved roadway. A car drives along this road towards and past the camera. CU of the road sign. “Nisko 4” sign upside down in front of the shot. "Nisko 5” in front of the road sign. LS of the road sign. Shaky as the camera zooms in on a passing train. Street sign: “Janow Lub 16, Lublin 94.” Trucks. Snowy fields. INT of the car in which the cameraperson is riding. Image cuts out at 04:34.
FILM ID 3892 -- White 85 Cracovie 99-103
00:10 Crooked shot of low brick buildings, people walking along snowy sidewalks. “Wie 2 [Wielicka 2]” A large green and stone building with a big arched window. People in winter coats walk along the street in front. Truck. Family walks along the sidewalk; the woman pushes a stroller and they walk past a statue. Benches and stone buildings, including one with a tall spire. Many pedestrians. 01:45 Sound: a man says “It’s running.” "Cracovie 100” Bearded man with a cigarette in his mouth hits a boom mic with the sign. Parking lot and buildings. CU on sign: “Bohaterow Getta.” Snowflakes fall. Cars drive by. A woman runs across the street. A voice behind the camera says, “Stop.” More cars pass. Grey buildings, a parking lot, busy highway. Bearded man hits the boom with "Krakow, 100-A. Stop.” "Cracovie 101” Parking lot. Street. Silent. A streetcar. Buildings, a small square, many pedestrians. “Hotel Europejski” Pedestrians run to catch the streetcar. Large white building with columns. Yellow building with “PKP”sign. Pedestrians. Truck loaded with boxes. More pans. LS of the PKP building. INT of a car. Illegible slate. Image cuts out at 06:20.
FILM ID 3893 -- White 85 Piotrkow Trybunalski
00:20 People gathered outside of a low wooden building. Cows in a green field, farm. A tall red post with a sign: "Piotrkow Trybunalski.”The cameraperson walks forward. Shaky pan, then 360 view of farmhouses, cows, and a briefly-visible figure standing by the road. Image cuts out at 01:27.
FILM ID 3894 -- Wieliczka and Mielec 1-6
00:10 Driving along a snowy road; other cars and trucks. Signs: “Miasto I Gmina” “Wieliczka” “Turystow” “Wita” "Bochnia 30, Tarnow 72, Rzeszow 152, Medyka 250, Lwow 331.” Passing by trees and low houses. Brief INT of the car. “Mielec” windows of a building, sign: “Bar Starowmiejski.” Town square, surrounded by two-story buildings. Pedestrians. Red-brick building. People, bundled in warm clothing and hats, wait by a bus station shelter. Town square. Trucks, cars, and a tank. People board a bus. Driving on a rural road alongside train tracks and electrical towers. INT car. Two men riding in an open horse-drawn cart. Road sign: “Mielec.” The countryside from the inside of the car. Red-brick and wood farm-style buildings. Image cuts out at 06:20.

Born in the Russian Empire (now Belarus) in 1895, Nahum Goldmann received a law degree and PhD from the University of Heidelberg. He was President of the World Jewish Congress from 1948 to 1977 which he founded with Stephen Wise. He was a Zionist activist but was often critical of Israeli public policy. He was instrumental in creating the Jewish Material Claims Conference. Goldmann wrote an autobiography called "Sixty Years of Jewish Life" in 1969. He died in 1982. In this interview shot in Israel, Lanzmann and Goldmann discuss Stephen Wise, when the Jews realized the reality of the Final Solution, the Jewish Council, and the Arendt controversy. The interview was likely shot in Jerusalem from February 3-10, 1975 during the World Jewish Congress conference at which Gerhart Riegner was present.
FILM ID 3865 -- Camera Rolls #1-3
Lanzmann interviews Nahum Goldmann. They talk about his writing, in which he condemns the outside world for its ability to see the inevitable catastrophe of the Holocaust and take any decisive action to save the Jews. They talk about the differences between the Jewish world and leadership between then and now - how it is more united today than before because of the existence of Israel and the successful representation of the World Jewish Congress. Goldmann says that the Jews are incredibly optimistic, which is how they’ve survived 2,000 years of diaspora, but that this can be dangerous. He says that in the early 1930s, German Jews did not take the threat of Hitler seriously enough. However, he says that the American Jews, who were and are the most influential group, were the worst in terms of evaluating the threat of Nazism. He is convinced that if the world Jewry had united to fight Hitler in the mid 1930s before Nazis consolidated power, hundreds of thousands of Jews could have been saved. They discuss Roosevelt’s idea to appoint Stephen Wise as the ambassador to Germany, as well as Goldmann’s own denaturalisation by Goebbels after his establishment of the WJC’s boycott on Germany.
(12:00) Goldmann thinks that the power of the Jewish community is greater today because of general global guilt over a lack of preventative action during the Holocaust, but that this won’t last. He describes a growing sentiment, particularly amongst the younger German generation, that they were not responsible for what occurred. However, he does express the opinion that Roosevelt was a champion of underdogs, both a moral figure and a great politician, and that he did endeavor to help the Jews but bureaucracy prevented him from being successful.
(15:38) Lanzmann points out what he perceives to be a paradox in their discussion: that the non-Jews were much more confident in the power of the Jewish community than the Jews themselves. Goldmann agrees. He says that Jews were much more concerned with patriotism and assimilation than consolidating community because of their fears of anti-Semitism. For example, the Alliance Israelite Universelle, a French Jewish organization, was very against the establishment of the WJC. They question if German Jews were overly patriotic and did not have foresight in assessing the Nazi threat.
(21:52) Lanzmann asks what could have been achieved with specific action. Goldmann responds that when Hitler came to power, there was a peace treaty with Poland which gave Jews in Upper Silesia equal rights as a minority. The Nazi laws violated this treaty. The League of Nations then passed a resolution that Hitler could not enforce anti-Semitic laws because there was an international treaty guaranteeing equal rights. Subsequently, for the remainder of the treaty’s duration, the Nuremberg laws did not apply to Jews in Upper Silesia. He says that this international action shows that the Nazis could be forced to give in. If there had been a united Jewish action or boycott, he believes non-Jews would have joined them and decisive prevention could have occurred.
(27:03) Lanzmann expresses the idea that the main factor of unification of the Jewish world at the time was Zionism. Goldmann responds that Zionist groups did not have much influence on the government in Europe, but that they were the most dynamic force. The founders of the WJC were 90% Zionist. They discuss the nature of Zionism at the time and its relationship with the WJC. Goldmann describes immigration to Palestine in the 1930s, including negotiating with the Nazis on the emigration of German Jews while preserving their personal wealth. The interview cuts off abruptly, with Goldmann asking, “Oh, is it finished?”
FILM ID 3866 -- Camera Rolls #4-6
FILM ID 3867 -- Camera Rolls #7-8

One roll of location filming of Terezin, Czechoslovakia for SHOAH. The film reel is titled "Theresienstadt Ville et Crematoire Roll 48 (white)".
The town of Terezin nearly deserted except for a few people in the streets. 02:44 Group of soldiers and a large blue bus in the street. Street signs "Litomerice, 3; Usti, 28; Praha, 59." Public parks, passing trucks, pedestrians. 11:22 A public square from above and clapperboard with "Bob 50" written on it. Terezin from an upstairs window. Children playing in a park. 13:15 "Bobine 49, Lubchansky Terezin." Street views. 16:00 A wooden tower can be seen over a fence. Train tracks, memorial in the shape of a menorah. The crematorium next to the cemetery. Views of the ovens inside the crematorium. 20:16 Views of the city from outside the crematorium. 22:06 "Bobine 47, Lubchansky Terezin." Street scenes, mostly deserted. CU of railroad tracks. 26:04 Sign next to the tracks reads "Krematorium Terezin." Park views, a bus passes by. Camera approaches a building marked "15 KSC, Prislusnici, Csla, Cestne, Splni, Zavery, Xv, Sjezou, Ksc," a soldier guards the door. More street scenes. 32:53 Same view of the public square from above. A hand cuts in front of the camera. 33:36 Sunset. 34:18 Public square from the ground. Street scenes and views of buildings in the town of Terezin.

Prints from various assembled negative with location filming in Poland for SHOAH. The reels are marked "Retirages de Shoah" which roughly translates to "Miscellaneous Reprints of Shoah". These are likely reprints of LODZ negative.
FILM ID 3196 -- Bobine 3. Retirages de Shoah (43:16)
00:42 Slate reads 'Cracovie' (Krakow); shots of three war-era photographs: many people walking in the street, carrying their belongings in large sacs; a soldier in uniform stands on a set of trolley tracks in the middle of a street, with a military truck in the background; a wide shot of an empty street littered with people's belongings, while a large group of people stand near a military truck in the background
01:18 Slate reads 'Zbaszyn'; shots of three photographs: two show a large crowd of people gathered in what looks like a train station; young women waving from the deck of a ship
01:56 Slate reads 'Raciac'; shots of three photographs: several hundred men lined up around the perimeter of a courtyard, while several people mill about in the center of the yard; a close-up of several men in line in the same location; the bodies of 10 men hang over an open pit while uniformed soldiers look on
02:30 Slate reads 'Grodno'; shots of five photographs of a massacre: flat ground covered in hundreds of neatly arranged human skulls; another shot of the same skulls; four full skeletons lie in the foreground, and a pile of bones lies in the background; close-up of the pile of bones; wide shot of the skulls and bones in a vast field
03:42 Slate reads 'Ciechanow'; one photograph, which depicts a line of men walking as far as the eye can see
03:58 Slate reads 'Plonsk'; four photographs: men being unloaded from the back of a covered truck, while a soldier looks on; two men in uniform stand in front of the body of a man who has been hanged in the street; men, women, and children walking up a hill, while a soldier looks on; flames leaping out of the upstairs window of a building
04:53 Contemporary shots of Poland: people milling around a grassy open area with patches of snow and tall buildings in the background; a view of snowy fields from a moving car; a man drives a horse-drawn cart down a road away from the camera; the camera zooms out, showing the cart, road, a church, and vast fields beyond; more shots of a cart, the church, and fields
08:13 Slate reads 'Pologne 2 hiver bobine #16' (Poland 2 Winter Reel #16), then another slate reads 'Ext. Chelmno'; close-up of a memorial plaque, which reads (in Polish) 'Here lie the ashes of 340,000 Polish Jews and 20,000 Jews from other European countries'; the camera zooms out from the plaque, showing that it is affixed to a stone at the foot of an enormous field; a shot of the memorial on the site of Chelmno: a huge concrete slab with the words of a poem written by a Chelmno prisoner. Snowy street scenes in a town
13:24 Slate reads 'Lodz ghetto'; various street scenes, building facades, people walking about; shots of trolleys running the length of Zgierska Street, which bisected the ghetto but was off-limits to Jews, who had to cross the street using a steep and narrow bridge; a woman walks two dogs across a snowy park
20:07 Slate reads 'LOD 12'; nighttime shots of 'Lodz Kaliska,' the Lodz train station; travelers read the train schedule board and walk around; panning shots of the station square and trains coming and going
25:26 Slate reads 'LOD 17'; daytime street scenes in Lodz; trolleys passing; various shots of a dead-end street
26:42 Slate reads 'LOD 18', then immediately 'LOD 19'; panning shots of a busy intersection of two wide boulevards
28:04 Slate reads 'LOD 20'; the imposing red brick facade of the Poznanski factory complex on Ogrodowa Street, with small flags waving along the length of its fence: Izrael Poznanski was a Jewish industrialist who made a fortune in the textile industry at the turn of the 20th century, particularly in the spinning of cotton; he died in 1900 and passed the business to his son, and the factory buildings were taken over by Nazi occupiers from 1940 to 1945
29:06 Slate reads 'LOD 21'; more shots of the Poznanski complex from across the street
29:57 Slate reads 'LOD 21'; shots of the Poznanski family's home, known as the Poznanski Palace, located next-door to the factory on Ogrodowa Street
30:35 Slate reads 'LOD 22'; slow zoom out on a street in central Lodz; a young boy in winter clothes walks slowly down a sidewalk; a woman stands in her upstairs window and studies the street below; the facade of a building reads 'Pionier' ('Pioneer'); the camera moves through a series of doorways and dark passageways; shots of a dilapidated building in a back courtyard
36:26 Slate reads 'LOD 24'; camera zooms in and then out on the upstairs windows of a large brick building
38:14 Slate reads 'LOD 25'; shots of the same brick building; camera pans 180 degrees to show facades of the Catholic Church of the Assumption of Our Blessed Mary, in Plac Koscielny, while children play on its steps; the church was located in the Jewish ghetto during the war, and the Nazi occupiers used it first to store the possessions of Jews who had been killed in Chelmno, and then as a warehouse for down feathers
39:13 Slate reads 'LOD 26'; A Lodz train platform - the train station of the neighborhood of contemporary Lodz where the Jewish ghetto once stood; pan to the central station building; people walk around the station square; a large group is congregated near the ticket window; people walking off platforms 1, 2, and 3 and out of a station door. Slate reads 'LOD 28', end of reel.
FILM ID 4604 -- Bobine 4. Retirages de Shoah (16:41)
00:06 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Bob. 7' Roadway with plowed snow at edges.
01:51 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 17' Another slate: 'Lodz Ghetto' Building, street scenes, cemetery, drive by snowy forest, villages in Poland.
06:02 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Bob 1' Another slate: 'VAR 1' Cemetery in Warsaw with snow; CU, Czerniakow's grave; sign: Jewish Cemetery Warsaw; drive by snowy fields
13:00 [leader marked 'Neige de Siberie'] Drive by snowy field and forest [tail leader marked 'fin bob 4'].
14:38 [leader marked "Tu ne commettras pas le crime" de C. Lanzmann] Drive by snow covered fields with trees in background.

Willy Hilse, a railroad worker at the Auschwitz train station, describes his work and transport arrivals at Auschwitz, shipments of Jewish property, his postwar difficulties, and his reluctance to speak about his experiences again in the future. This interview was recorded in Germany without image or picture.
FILM ID 3634 -- Hilse 1
Hilse describes transport arrivals at Auschwitz, including technical details such as the location of the ramp, train platforms, and the separation of men and women and witnessing the arrival of Hungarian Jews in 1944. He goes on to list the nationalities of Jews from other transports and to recall such details as the rail station sign that said "Auschwitz Train Station" and how the trains ran on a schedule. Hilse describes seeing the reactions of people as they exited the trains, his own arrival at Auschwitz in September 1941, a huge fire that burned day and night, and his work in Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks if Hilse recognizes the name "Kanada". Hilse does not, and explains the group's function. Hilse and his wife share their thoughts on how much railway workers and other people knew about Auschwitz.
FILM ID 3635 -- Hilse 2 -- sound quality is poor
Hilse expresses worry about the film being shown in Germany. Lanzmann says that the film is only for France and that Hilse is not at fault for wartime events at Auschwitz. Hilse says that he was questioned about his experiences before a Frankfurt judge and he and his wife explain the fallout, such as German newspapers holding him responsible for the transports and portraying him as the biggest murderer of the twentieth century. Lanzmann asks Hilse if he knew about the mass murders and, while Hilse says that he knew that trains came in every day, he says that he did not know what happened in the camp. He adds that he was glad when he was moved to the city of Oppeln because life in Auschwitz was hard for Germans and Poles as well as for Jews. Lanzmann asks if he saw shipments of Jewish property brought in and Hilse answers that he does not know of any money or jewelry, but that he once saw shipments of prisoners' shaven hair being prepared for processing. Hilse recalls that it was terribly hot when the Hungarian transports arrived and that 60-70 people were in each car (elderly people, women who had given birth, and people who had died en route). Hilse describes the conditions and cleaning of the wagons after the people were brought to camp.
FILM ID 3636 -- Hilse 3
Hilse explains how trains pulled in to the Auschwitz train station, his busy work schedule keeping track of any irregularities with the trains and the station, and walking past the station twice a day. Lanzmann asks Hilse about where the trains came from, who and what kinds of items were transported, and the "special trains" [Sonderzüge] for Jews. Hilse describes the return of empty trains before Lanzmann asks if he knew the meanings of various abbreviations such as PO [Polen/ Poles] and PJ [polnische Juden/ Polish Jews]. Hilse recalls a time that a woman on a train begged him for water to give to her small child. Despite Lanzmann's further questions and his telling Hilse that he is one of the few eyewitnesses, Hilse says that he does not want to discuss his experiences any longer. Lanzmann insists that he should consider additional interview time as Hilse will earn money, but Hilse says he does not want it- instead, he wants quiet and to not be bothered about his Auschwitz experiences anymore. Lanzmann asks about Hilse's schedule the next day before telling him that he will call after Hilse and his wife attend church. Hilse asserts that he has no more to say and then begins to describe his current medical issues.

Claude Lanzmann recites the June 5, 1942 letter from Willy Just to Walter Rauff regarding gas vans in Chelmno for the SHOAH film team in May 1983 in Germany.
FILM ID 3637 -- Lettre Just, version 1
FILM ID 3638 -- Lettre Just, version 2
FILM ID 4603 -- Lettre Just, 2 versions (more than two versions read by Lanzmann, 19 minutes)

RG-60.5077 Short interviews with Polish people living around the Treblinka camp in Iladou, Poniatowo, and Wolka Okraglik, Poland. Lanzmann talks with Polish men and women who describe having lived and worked in the fields in the shadow of Treblinka during its operation. They describe being forbidden to look that direction, the Ukrainians who worked in the camp, the scene at the train station when transports arrived, and the effects of the weather on the Jews. Lanzmann visits the quay where trains stopped at the entrance of the camp. A Polish man describes routinely finding the corpses of Jews in his field who had tried to escape; he would return the bodies to the camp to be incinerated. Lanzmann talks with a group of children in an attempt to discern current attitudes toward Jews.
FILM ID 3369 -- Camera Rolls # TR85-87 -- 07:59:39 to 08:27:38
[There is no corresponding transcript. This reel was preserved with the Gawkowski interview.] Lanzmann drives through a town near Treblinka. Windshield wipers; Lanzmann comments on the beautiful scenery. They approach a farm house where children play. 08:03:52 Lanzmann talks with an older gentleman, First Farmer, who initially resists being interviewed. The man had seen trains 80 cars long coming into the town. A woman off-camera repeats several times in Polish that, "It's not allowed to talk about it" and "You couldn't go in there."
08:05:42 TR 86 Conversation is distant with the loud noise of geese. A farmer witnessed two young boys who had escaped being beaten and killed by German officers. 08:07:07 Everyone 'trembled with fear' in that era, particularly because Germans posted a warning on the door of every house stating that those who helped Jews would be killed. 08:08:00 Lanzmann asks the woman, who had been standing silently whether she had been in Treblinka at that time, and she replies that she was very young. 08:08:15 While a man worked in the fields his sister stayed at home and a young Jewish girl took the sister because she thought if she was seen with a Pole from the town, she could trick the Ukrainians. The sister started to scream, neighbors came over, and the Jewish girl ran away. 08:09:21 The smell was so bad that when the wind blew from the direction of the camp, it was impossible to work. No one knew what was going on there. Second Farmer shouts out that they were burning people, and another woman says they were killing people. Comments are not translated into French because they are talking over each other. 08:10:26 Lanzmann presses whether they really knew what was happening in the camp, and the woman says it would take an entire day to discuss everything that happened. 08:10:39 First Farmer worked in a field about 100 meters from the camp and saw how they strangled the Jews, how they cried. They were not allowed to stop and look because if the Ukrainians saw them, they would be shot. 08:10:30 The man tells the story of a woman from Poniatowo who went to sell potatoes from her field to the people of another town. A Ukrainian on the observation tower saw her looking and shot and killed her. They cast glances at the camp but mostly worked with their heads down. 08:11:30 Foreign Jews arrived on a passenger train with a restaurant car, and they had been told they were going to work in a factory. They were rich Jews, whereas 'our Jews' (i.e. Polish Jews) arrived in cattle cars. The Poles would show the Jews the hand motion of being strangled, signaling that death was waiting for them. 08:13:55 When Germans guarded the transport, sometimes they would tell the Jews to get off the train and drink some water. Second Farmer and others told them to run away because they were on their way to death. It was forbidden to talk to the Jews. 08:14:36 The train would stay long enough to push 20 train cars to the camp. In the beginning, they killed them running. [Picture cuts out at several points.]
08:15:27 TR 87 Second Farmer lets Lanzmann visit his field where he still grows wheat and potatoes. Lanzmann asks whether he finds remnants of the camp when he is working and he says no. Others have found skulls on the surface of the grass. 08:17:37 People have found gloves, rings, earrings, and even 20-dollar gold coins. 08:18:47 When the last Ukrainian left, they flattened the camp and planted flowers. 08:19:05 The Poles talked to the Ukrainians because they got drunk at night and would look for locals, demanding to be driven back to the camp. The Ukrainians trafficked vodka. Some were cunning and some would escape. 08:20:10 Second Farmer says, "It's only Hitler who can know." First Farmer adds, "Who could have expected this? No one." Once, the Jews set fire to the camp, and everyone ran away to Poniatowo. Lanzmann clarifies the date: August 2, 1943. 08:21:26 The Poles worked in the fields that day, and the Ukrainians had gone to swim in the Bug. They rushed back and stopped First Farmer on the road and asked whether he had seen the Jews running. He said yes, they were running to the forest with grenades and guns. 08:23:20 Lanzmann asks the farmers why they think this happened to the Jews. Second Farmers replies that "the Jews have good heads," and that's why they were able to organize this revolt. Those who hid in the forest survived, but others were captured. 08:24:38 They talk about living normally with Jews before the war, and the two Jewish families in Poniatowo. Stores belonged to Jews and he bought his food from them. People used to say when there were no Jews, there would be no commerce, but there is still commerce now.
FILM ID 3811 -- Camera Roll # TR88 – Interview Paysans gare (chutes) (Iladou)
When the transports arrived, it was very hot and the Jews were very thirsty. When they tried to exit the train, the Ukrainians would shoot them. The Ukrainians instructed the Jews inside the trains to give them their gold and sometimes the Ukrainians would hit them with their guns. There were up to 150 people in one car, and there were always some dead in the train car when they arrived. They were so cramped that those who were alive would sit on the corpses. It was so hot in June and July. Sometimes, he would give water to the Jews. They would try to escape the train by jumping through the windows. Sometimes they would intentionally jump out the window and sit on the ground, because they knew they would be shot in the head. When there were no more train cars, they would come to get the corpses with two or three cars. They would put all the corpses in those cars and take them inside the camp.
00:04:28 Lanzmann asks whether it bothered the Germans and Ukrainians to be doing all this in front of the local residents. The man says that they did not care. When a train was in the station, they could not cross the tracks but they were allowed to walk the length of the platform. 00:05:15 He wonders how man could do these things to another human being. He remembers an instance when a woman in a transport asked for water and a Ukrainian said no, and she threw the pot she was carrying on her head. He stepped back 10 meters, and began shooting at the car at random. He says that winter was worse because of the cold, but then says that maybe the Jews weren't cold on the trains because they were so cramped, and that in summer it was so hot that they suffocated. 00:07:26 Lanzmann and the gentleman walk toward his field.
FILM ID 3812 -- Camera Rolls #TR 89-97 -- Paysan dans son champ (doubles) (Iladou)
TR 89 Lanzmann talks inaudibly, they struggle to light cigarettes, the gentleman points out his field.
TR 90 They stand in his field and discuss its proximity to what were the gates of the Treblinka camp, about 200 meters away. The stones that mark the location of the crematoria are also visible. His field is on a small hill, and he was able to see the convoys arriving. There was a wooden fence made of tree branches, about 3 meters high, but from his hill he could see over the fence. Lanzmann does the majority of the talking, and is incredulous as to the proximity of the man's field to the camp itself.
TR 91 Lanzmann comments on the proximity of some of the fields to the camp, and that farmers were allowed to work their fields. The gas chambers were just on the other side of the fence. He was scared to work, but nothing ever happened to him while he was there. They discuss the poor quality of the dirt for planting. TR 92 Silent walk through the fields. TR 93.
TR 94 They walk from his field toward the camp. Lanzmann asks whether residents of the villages on the other side of the camp also had fields adjacent to the camp, and the man says yes. They arrive at the platform where the train would offload Jews-- the platform could exactly accommodate 20 train cars.
TR 95 The man heard screams from his field. The Jews would scream when the doors of the train cars finally opened, and they saw where they were. He describes the cries as a "lamentation." To him, it sounded like "one great common scream," instead of many voices. After a while, the screams sounded less human and more like the cries of geese. He was scared for his life, and thought he might be the next to be submitted to the fate of the Jews inside the camp.
TR 96 The man would rather not have worked in this field, but his father asked him to because the family had few fields. Most of the people from the area near Treblinka are poor. 00:01:03 They stand on the platform where Jews disembarked from the trains. The man distinguished the screams from an orchestra that was playing. The man could see the people disembarking because there were no trees.
TR 97 The man describes the moments after the Jews descended from the trains. Clothing went to one side, kitchen wares and tools to the other, and then they were pushed further into the camp itself. The gas chambers were on the left.
FILM ID 3813 -- TR 97A-100 -- White 8- Le Camp
Driving along a dirt road towards the memorial stones at Treblinka with Beethoven’s 7th symphony (the death march) playing. TR 99 Different views of the same, INT car.
FILM ID 3814 -- TR 100A-100B -- White 8bis- Les Pierres
Silent shots of stones at Treblinka memorial.
FILM ID 3815 -- TR 100C-102 -- White 9- Eglise de Prostyn. Poniatovo: oratoire
Silent shots of the church in Poniatowo, street and farming scenes. An elderly woman walks towards the camera with a flower bouquet. 08:55 TR 102 The woman who has lived in Poniatowo her whole life lays flowers on the altar of the Virgin Mary. Lanzmann asks what she is praying for, and she replies that she does not know. He asks her about the war, and she says, "How could I have known what was happening [inside the camp]?". She admits knowing bad things were happening, but that she was not allowed near the camp and never approached. Lanzmann presses her for more memories from that time, and she walks away.
FILM ID 3816 -- TR 103A-104 -- White 9bis- Int. Poniatowo
TR 103 Lanzmann meets an 84-year-old man in the village of Poniatowo, who remembers both wars. He says he remembers everything, and that Poniatowo is the closest village to the Treblinka camp. The man says he knew that Jews were being exterminated in the camp. "How could I not know?" he says. He explains that Ukrainians also killed a few people in this village, for the smallest thing. At the Treblinka station, three or four trucks came every day to pick up the corpses of Jews who had tried to escape and been shot. He remembers the smell of death coming from the camp when the wind blew from that direction, and of hearing children crying at night. He explains that many people arrived every day: Polish Jews in cattle cars, and Jews of other nationalities on passenger trains. The Jews, he says, thought they were going to work, and when local people warned them (with the hand motion of cutting one's throat), the Jews laughed. In the camp, he says, there were only about 20 Germans and many more Ukrainians. The Ukrainians would come into the town with a lot of gold and buy vodka and meat. They would visit prostitutes in the woods, too. He remembers seeing Jews running from the camp during the revolt.
11:23 TR 104 Lanzmann asks whether the man remembers the revolt of August 1943. He does, though they did not pass through the village in their flight. He did see the corpses of those who were killed while fleeing. He helped Jews when he could, mostly by giving them direction and telling them what areas were safe, but he was very scared to do so. Lanzmann interjects that he knows a Jew who escaped from Treblinka, who hid for 15 hours in a swamp near Prostyn. Lanzmann asks the man whether he is saddened that there are no more Jews in Poland. He replies that no, he does not wish there were still Jews in Poland because he prefers to live amongst Poles. Additional shots of the group of locals with background conversation in Polish.
FILM ID 3817 -- TR 105-110 -- White 10- Wolka Okraglik
Cows and main road in village of Wolka Okraglik. 02:04 TR 106 Lanzmann meets a 45-year-old man from Wolka Okraglik, a village further away from the camp, and decides not to interview him. TR 107. Lanzmann and his interpreter peer into a local home.
04:46 (probably TR 110 – slate is concealed) Lanzmann asks whether there were women from Warsaw who came to the village during the war, and his interviewee replies that he never saw one, but that it's possible they were in the woods. A plane came twice a week to deliver goods to the Ukrainians working at the camp. Even the Ukrainians didn't have gold, though, he explains. "Gold was worth killing for." There was no way to alert the Jews as to what was going on in Treblinka because they moved the train cars quickly to the camp, and villagers were not allowed to approach them. Doing so was risking death, because, "the Ukrainians shot at people as though they were rabbits." Jews would run to try to escape, even naked. Every morning when he would come to his field, he would find the corpses of Jews laying in it, "like stalks of cut wheat." He would put the bodies in a wagon and wheel it to the entrance of the camp, where Ukrainian workers would burn them with the other corpses. This was common for fields around Treblinka, because many people tried to escape and were machine gunned down. Every night there would be escaped Jews in the village, even naked, who asked for help. They wanted to run as far away as possible. It was impossible to help them, because Ukrainians were in the village, except to give them clothes. His brother gave clothes to an escaped Jew. Very few who escaped survived. Lanzmann asks whether the residents of the village are very religious, and the man replies that they are. Lanzmann asks whether there were Jews in the village before the war, and the interviewee says no, but that some lived in another village six kilometers away. He saw the Jews from Kosow Lacki walk on foot toward the camp. When Lanzmann asks whether the gentleman is sad that there are no more Jews in Poland, he replies that it is not his business and that it doesn't matter to him.
14:39 TR 109 Lanzmann and his interpreter enter private gates and meet a farmer who worked in the construction of the Treblinka camp. Once Jews began to arrive he was no longer allowed inside. He describes hearing the cries coming from the camp, as well as the orchestra which was there to "drown out the cries of the Jews." The man remembers watching the convoys of Jews from Warsaw arrive at Treblinka. Six transports arrived per day, and each had 60 train cars. Only 20 cars could be shunted to the camp to be unloaded at a time, so they divided each train into three parts. He worked in a field very close to the barbed fence, so he could hear the terrible cries. In fact, the camp was built partly on his fields. He could not go inside, but could hear everything. In the beginning, he couldn't handle the sounds, but eventually he became accustomed to it. Now it seems impossible that it happened, though he knows it did. Lanzmann asks him about the smell emanating from the camp. He explains that initially the odor was terrible because the bodies were buried in mass graves, and the smell became too much so they dug up the graves and burned the bodies, spraying them with gas. He explains that there were not many Germans working, about 120 Ukrainians, and about 1000 Jews working in the camp. The Ukrainians worked eight hours per day and were allowed to leave the camp after hours, so they would come to the village.
FILM ID 3819 -- TR 31-32 – Interview Enfants Gare
Lanzmann interviews a group of children and asks what they think of the history of their town. They don't believe all of the stories their parents tell, because they weren't there. One child comments that she knows what a Jew is, though she couldn't define it. A boy says that a Jew is "a guy who has a beard." 00:03:36 The children laugh and joke; the brother of one found a gold tooth in the forest, and they have found bones and rings as well, on the land where the camp used to be. Lanzmann presses them-- if they have found human bones, must the stories told by their parents be true? One says yes, they must be, and another says he does not believe because his family is Ukrainian. 00:07:34 The children say that Jews came to the camp for a meeting, and they saw them. A boy adds that the Jew he saw had a curved nose. When Lanzmann asks, the children say they don't have sympathy for the Jews because they are dark and have beards. 00:08:35 Lanzmann asks the group of children whether they attend church and whether they believe; the children say that they do, and ask Lanzmann whether he does. When he says that he does not, they yell that he is a capitalist and a Jew. Jews are capitalists, they say. The children admonish Lanzmann for not believing in God and when he asks whether it is worse to kill or to not be a Christian, they say that both are sins and both are bad. Lanzmann asks what they have learned about Jews in church, and they refuse to tell him.

Dr. Wiener leads Lanzmann around the Jewish quarter of Krakow and describes various buildings, sites, and his personal connection to the Holocaust. Wiener and Lanzmann talk with Israël Hertzl, a Polish veteran of the Soviet Army.
FILM ID 3890 -- Wiener 1-2 Travelling Cracovie
INT, Wiener seated in passenger seat of car. Driving tour of the city. Wiener describes streets, buildings, and areas of Kazimierz in Krakow, including Joseph Strasse, on which many of the Orthodox Jewish community lived before the war. He goes on to say that the quarter was the center of Jewish trade. Wiener and Lanzmann stop at the old synagogue and Wiener explains the history and current state of the building before pointing out the border of the Jewish quarter, buildings where Jews lived, and former locations of Jewish shops. He goes on to comment that he was born in the Jewish quarter, he lived on the streets throughout the war, and that his mother was in the Krakow Ghetto and his father in a camp. He also repeatedly comments on how much of the city has been reconstructed. Wiener points out the house that belonged to the Kassenellenbogens, a prominent Jewish family, a Jewish cemetery established after a cholera outbreak, and schools. Lanzmann and Wiener comment on the progression of Jewish and national culture. Wiener shows Lanzmann the old wall to the Jewish quarter. 01:20:00 Silent traveling shots of Krakow. Horse/cart. Ghetto buildings. Man pushing cart loaded with boxes. Tram.
FILM ID 3880 -- Camera Rolls 3-10 Cimitiere Cracovie
In Krakow, Wiener explains the history of the city's oldest Jewish cemetery and its current status as a memorial. A Polish gentleman named Israël Hertzl joins the conversation and tells Lanzmann and Wiener that he was a driver and German interpreter in the Soviet Army during the war and earned decorations from both Poland and the USSR. When prompted by Lanzmann, Hertzl says that he identifies first as Jewish and then as Polish and goes on to explain that his first wife, mother, and four brothers were all deported and killed. He elaborates on his Jewish identity and notes that he learned Yiddish and Hebrew, the few Jews remaining in Poland are very proud, and the efforts made by the Jewish community to build up the culture. Wiener's wife adds her thoughts to the conversation. Wiener, his wife, and Hertzl talk about their political views, with Wiener noting that he has been a member of the communist party for fifty-one years. They also discuss their views on religion and the Pope. Hertzl, born in Stanislaw, describes the town's geographic location, its history, and his life there from 1945-1957. He goes on to say that although he moved back to Krakow after his marriage in 1957, he and his wife visit Stanislaw (now part of Russia) every year.
FILM ID 3881 -- Camera Rolls 11-14 Stele Cracovie
Silent shots of the Holocaust memorial. Wiener and Lanzmann visit a Holocaust memorial for the Polish and Hungarian Jews who were killed. Lanzmann presses Wiener for more information about the inscription on the monument and they discuss its wording.

Interview with local Polish people in and around Wlodowa, including long sequences of a Cathlolic mass.
FILM ID 3658 -- Sobibor 72 -- SOB 44,45
00:00:00 Muffled sounds of a Catholic mass celebrated in Latin in the town of Wlodawa, with occasional barely discernible commentary from Lanzmann and his crew.
00:08:32 Following the mass, Lanzmann asks one of the participants whether he knows what Sobibor is. The man, who tells the crew that he is 65, replies that he is from Wlodawa, so of course he does; he was there. At Sobibor, he says, there was a camp where they burned Jews. The man fought on both fronts during the war, and spent time in Wlodawa during the war and during the German occupation.
00:09:57 When asked whether there were Jews in Wlodawa at that time, the man replies that there were a great number-- half the population. When the Germans arrived, he explains, they began deporting Jews to the Sobibor camp, as well as to others. Before the war, he says, the Jews in Wlodawa were largely merchants and artisans. They lived all over town, and the man explains that the streets where Jews once lived have since been renamed. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews knew their fate when they were deported from Wlodawa, and the man replies that they could not have known exactly what would befall them. Even before the war, though, he says Jews knew they were doomed. They felt it. When Lanzmann asks whether the man is sad about what happened to the Jews, he replies that every faithful Christian thinks that every human being deserves to live.
00:13:07 Lanzmann asks whether this man got along with the Jews, and he replies that he did and that the non-Jewish residents of Wlodawa did their best to help Jews when there was a ghetto in the town. He explains that it was a transit ghetto, full of Jews from France and Vienna on their way to Sobibor. The ghetto lasted two years, and was totally closed. The ghetto was overseen by German, Polish, Ukrainian, and Jewish police forces. Before the war, the population of Wlodawa was 7,500, of whom 4,000 were Jews.
FILM ID 3659 -- Sobibor 73 -- SOB 45
00:00:11 Lanzmann asks three elders whether there was a synagogue in Wlodawa, and a woman replies that there was one, and that it was very beautiful. When Poland was still ruled by tsars, the synagogue existed-- it's even older than the Catholic church. Lanzmann asks what has become of the synagogue now that there are no Jews, and the couple replies that there is still a Jewish family in the town, and that the synagogue has been returned to the state. Lanzmann asks how this family survived the Holocaust, and the gentleman replies that they hid in the forest. He also talks about several families in which the father is Catholic and the mother is Jewish, and the children are raised Catholic. The man cannot remember the names of these families. Lanzmann asks whether there is a Jewish cemetery in Wlodawa, and the woman replies that there are two. The Nazis destroyed the Jewish cemeteries during the war, and after the war, one was turned into a park, where a few of the tombstones still remain visible.
00:03:59 Lanzmann asks whether the Jews living in Wlodawa before the war were rich or poor, and the woman replies that there were all types, but most were small merchants and artisans who were not rich. Lanzmann asks them how they experienced, 'the annihilation of the majority of their town's population,' and how they feel about it now. The man replied that they were scared that they would be the next to be targeted. Lanzmann asks whether they prayed for the Jews during that time, and he replies that of course they did. They could not talk about the subject in church, because Germans often waited outside of the church to conduct raids. A church bell rings in the background.
00:05:43 Lanzmann asks why his interviewees think this all happened to the Jews in particular. The man replies that Hitler's great grandfather was Jewish, and that Jews assassinated him, so when Hitler became an adult, he decided to avenge his ancestor. Lanzmann makes an allusion to the story of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, and asks whether that might have anything to do with why the gentleman thinks the Jews were exterminated. The man responds that he is not sure, but he is a believer and that when Christ died, he said his death would be avenged, and that he was killed by Jews.
00:08:02 Lanzmann pulls another man out of the group of onlookers, who has something he wants to say. The man wants to make sure that listeners understand that the extermination of Jews took place not only in Wlodawa, but everywhere in Poland. He continues that the Germans simply wanted to exterminate every race that was not their own, starting with the Jews but eventually the Polish people, too. He says that there were two insurrections in Warsaw, one led by Jews and another by Poles.
00:09:05 One man in the group of onlookers says that everyone in Wlodawa knows what happened, but what they lived through was very different than the French experience, 'like night and day,' and so he cannot discuss it with Lanzmann because he cannot understand. Lanzmann presses the gentleman to speak further, saying that this is precisely why he (Lanzmann) is here in Wlodawa asking these questions, trying to understand. The man tells Lanzmann to visit Majdanek, where there is a memorial and all of the proof of what happened, but will not speak to him further, not even when Lanzmann replies that he has already visited.
FILM ID 3660 -- Sobibor 74 -- SOB 47,48
00:00:49 Lanzmann interviews an elderly woman who stands with two men; sounds of a church service in the background throughout. He asks her why she had thanked him for still being interested in this history. She replies that the war was a very difficult time, where one could not even go to church, and that thankfully life has returned to its normal rhythm. Lanzmann asks her to elaborate about not being able to go to church, and she replies that one could, but that Germans would often station themselves outside of the church at the end of mass, and would conduct raids there. Lanzmann asks her whether Nazis ever shut Jews in the church, and she says no. She continues that she lives in a small village 30 km from Wlodawa, where there were not many Jews. The Jews in her village dressed differently than Poles before the war, and you could recognize them from the rest of the population, but then they began to dress like everyone else, except for the yellow star. Lanzmann asks the woman and men what they think of the Jewish religion. They say they are not very interested in it. The woman continues, however, explaining that Judaism is the oldest religion and that 'our' ten commandments come from Judaism. Lanzmann asks what they think of Jewish religious dress-- their clothes, their beards, etc. One of the men responds that it is not so different from Christian friars who wear religious dress. They discuss Jewish religious dress further, and then Lanzmann asks whether they found the Jews "harmless people or worrisome people." One of the gentlemen replies that they were fairly harmless, and that the only reproach against the Jews was that they engaged in commerce, meaning that they made a lot of money and did not work as hard as the Polish people farming the land. Lanzmann asks whether Polish people now hold those jobs in commerce, and the man replies that they do not, that the Polish government does it.
00:07:30 One of the men discusses Jewish commerce before the war, saying that many Poles preferred to shop in Jewish stores because if they did not have enough money, the Jewish store owners would give them credit and let them pay later. Lanzmann asks whether the Polish state is as good at commerce as the Jews were, and the woman laughs and replies that she is content with it.
00:09:00 Lanzmann asks whether the interviewees considered the Jews to be members of the Polish population, or whether they saw them as outsiders. One of the men replies that they were commonly seen as "full members of the collective Polish society," and that they did Polish military service and worked among and alongside the Polish people. Lanzmann then asks them to show him the part of the town that had been the Jewish ghetto.
00:10:10 The sounds of a church service
FILM ID 3661 -- Sobibor 75 -- SOB 49
Audio of a baptismal church service
FILM ID 3662 -- Sobibor 76 -- SOB 50
Muffled conversation-- Lanzmann, his translator Barbara, and a few Wlodawa residents drive to the area of town where the Jewish ghetto was once ocated. The local woman explains that the first ghetto was created in 1940, and that a second, closed ghetto was created in 1942. Most of the buildings that were there at the time have been destroyed and rebuilt. Lanzmann asks to see houses where Jews live which still stand. They walk to a street where a local man points out the houses in which Jews once lived. He knows every house which was owned by Jews, though he cannot remember their names. He points out one of the houses, and recollects watching Germans throw three Jews, including an elderly woman, from the second-story balcony. He points out the home of a man named Yenkel, who was killed in Sobibor, as well as the old locations of different Jewish businesses. They walk through streets where the gentleman says that before the war, every home was Jewish. Lanzmann asks the gentleman tour guide several times how he knows so much, and how he remembers the old residents of every single home and building in what was one the Jewish ghetto, but he never truly answers.
FILM ID 3663 -- Sobibor 78 -- SOB 51
00:00:38 Lanzmann and his translator continue to drive around the old Jewish ghetto of Wlodawa with a local resident who points out the locations of what were once Jewish homes and businesses. He shows them the old synagogue, and tells a story of when, as kids, he and friends once caught a bird and set it free in the window of the synagogue during a service, 'just as a joke.' The streets still have the same names they had when Jews lived there. As they continue driving, Lanzmann remarks that the entire town center was Jewish homes and businesses, and the man agrees. He explains that most Poles lived further from the center of town. They drive to the old Jewish cemetery, which is now a park.
FILM ID 3664 -- Sobibor 79 -- SOB 56,57
Outside the old Wlodawa synagogue, Lanzmann asks whether the synagogue is very old, and a local gentleman replies that the synagogue was built before the Catholic church, and the church is 460 years old. Lanzmann asks how long Jews have lived in Wlodawa, and the man says he has no idea, but that they have always been here. He explains that the Jews are merchants, and almost nomads, and that they arrived here for commerce, stayed, and built the synagogue. The man continues that it is too bad they cannot go inside the synagogue-- it is currently being rehabilitated, and the old paintings inside are being restored. Lanzmann asks for what purpose it is being rehabilitated, and he says that the State is turning it into a museum. He says that Jews came from Palestine and saw the synagogue, which had been turned into shops, and asked for it to be restored.

University course-debate at Yad Vashem. Shalmi Barmore, the Director of Education, stands in front of an assembly of military students after showing a film. Barmore and several students debate the resistance actions of the Jews during the Holocaust. They show concern that the Holocaust could happen again, in any country, including Israel. A student asks why the world appeared to be uninterested in helping the Jews during the Holocaust. Another student responds that the world was aware of what was occurring, but due to the violent situation they could not do more than accept refugees. A student doesn't think remembering the Holocaust is of utmost importance, since they have personally experienced Jewish resistance during all the wars Israel has fought since World War II. Barmore asks the students if they find kinship towards Holocaust survivors, and if they consider themselves survivors as well. Most of the students respond that they personally do not consider themselves survivors of the Holocaust, but that their people are. Another students believes that the Zionist effort to create the State of Israel was independent of the Holocaust. At a request by Lanzmann, Barmore asks how many students are direct descendants of survivors. Lanzmann is surprised to see so many raised hands. Barmore asks whether they believe it is more likely for Jews to die a violent death in Israel, rather than in the Diaspora. The students respond that such a death in Israel would not be connected to their Jewishness, but a result of their poor relations with a neighboring county.
FILM ID 3884 -- Yad Vashem 1-3
FILM ID 3885 -- Yad Vashem 4-5
FILM ID 3886 -- Yad Vashem 6A,6B,6D,6E,6C

Mengele Factory Workers in Günzburg, Germany. Lanzmann talks to German workers and peasants in the present-day Mengele family factory. The workers are unresponsive, saying things like, "Auschwitz was part good and part bad." Or that "it's all in the past." Most of them only admit to a vague idea of who Josef Mengele was.
FILM ID 3887 -- Shoah Sequence Mengele // image + mixage
Color sequence prepared by the editing team in June 1985 possibly for television distribution following the identification of Mengele's body on June 6, 1985. Opening shots of Karl Mengele street signs and farm equipment with the Mengele name. Interviews with workers bringing up Josef's name. Pull back from the tower to the town square in Günzburg.
FILM ID 3631 -- Mengele Factory Workers 1 -- prise 1,2 (audio only)
FILM ID 3632 -- Mengele Factory Workers 2 -- prise 1,2,3,4,5 (audio only)
FILM ID 3633 -- Mengele Factory Workers 3 (audio only)

FILM ID 4600 -- AJC NY 162-168
Claude Lanzmann interviews an American Jewish Committee (AJC) employee at the New York City office. During the interview the employee acts as a guide, taking Lanzmann on a tour of the building housing the AJC, which is comprised of several departments. The guide explains the main functions of the departments they pass: the Public Education and Information Department, the Foreign Affairs Department, the Domestic Affairs Department and the Library. Overall, the AJC is concerned with maintaining the rights and freedoms of Jews and other minorities. Lanzmann comments that the AJC appears to be a very powerful organization.
The guide takes Lanzmann to the Fundraising Department of the AJC. The AJC fosters cooperation with other non-Jewish groups for the mutual goal of freedom and security of all people. Lanzmann points out how this focus on human rights aligns with the sign on the front of the building, which reads, "Institute of Human Relations." By helping non-Jews, as well as Jews, the AJC helps all minorities improve their human rights. 03:44 At the time of the interview, the AJC was approaching its 75th anniversary. The AJC developed and expanded at a tremendous pace after the Holocaust. The guide and another woman tell Lanzmann about the AJC records, which include information on antisemitism, AJC's work before and during the creation of the state of Israel, and the resettlement of Holocaust survivors.
FILM ID 4601 -- AJC NY 169-172
[Audio is difficult to hear over background noise] The guide takes Lanzmann to AJC's computer room where a monthly and a quarterly magazine are produced. The modernity and efficiency of the AJC facilitates the completion of their important work, including communication with subscribers and members. The guide tells Lanzmann that she came to the United States as a small child before the war and her family perished in Poland. 05:33 In the Wiener Oral History Library, Lanzmann is introduced to the Director, Irma Krantz. Krantz tells Lanzmann how the Oral History division strives to represent as many different aspects of American Jewish life as possible through its recordings.
The guide next takes Lanzmann to the Brownstein Library and introduces him to Sima Horowitz, the Chief Librarian. Since its inception in 1939, the library is primarily concerned with contemporary American Jewish issues. A collection of contemporary antisemitic material consists of antisemitic books written in Braille and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" printed in several different languages as recently as 1975. Horowtz shows Lanzmann a book originally printed in 1936 for very young children as a propaganda piece in English by an organization called "The White Power Publications" in the United States. The book had wide circulation throughout the organization and was donated in 1976. The library also contains newspapers, periodicals, and radio addresses from the Middle East and Russia associated with contemporary antisemitism.

Dov Shilanksy (1924-2010) was born in Siauliai, Lithuania. He survived the Holocaust and moved to Israel in 1948. He fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Six-Day War, and the Yom Kippur War. He was an Israeli politician and Speaker of the Knesset from 1988 to 1992. This interview was conducted in the Knesset.
FILM ID 3618 -- Schilanski Israel 74
FILM ID 3619 -- Schilanski Israel 75
FILM ID 3620 -- Schilanski Israel 76
FILM ID 3621 -- Schilanski Israel 77
FILM ID 3622 -- Schilanski Israel 78

One roll of location filming of life at the seashore in Tel Aviv, Israel for SHOAH.
FILM ID 3611 -- Tel Aviv. Bor de Mer. Prieres Dizengov
People milling about the seaside in Tel Aviv. Camera pans out to show more people on the beach and cars parked on the grass. Two armed soldiers walk by and smile at the camera. 01:01:38 Man holds clapper indicating camera roll 85. People fishing, children look at the camera filming them. Camera pans over beach and shore. Camera focuses in on a mother talking to her young son, then out over the sea and coast. A man sits by the sea. CUs, families. A group of adults gathers to read. Adults and children look with interest at the camera filming them. 01:14:08 The sun sets while a group of Hasidic men walk down to the seashore and read from the Torah. One man from the group notices they are being filmed, he waves for the filming to stop. Scenes of the sea. Looking out at the sea, the group of men sway as they sing. 01:20:18 A bulldozer at the beach. Night has fallen, and a group of people sit further inland. Some wave at the camera.

Alfred Spiess was a prosecutor of the Treblinka trial. He talks about the reorganization of the camp and gas chambers.
FILM ID 3895 -- CR 1-4
Lanzmann asks Spiess how he felt when he was given the task of conducting an investigation for the Treblinka trial. Spiess says the trial presented many challenges; one primary concern was how to care for the witnesses. He created a model of the camp to be used for reference throughout the trial since, unlike other camps, Treblinka had been almost entirely destroyed. They created a sketch of the camp which Franz Stangl claimed was 100% accurate. In all three of the camps constructed under Operation Reinhardt (Be??ec, Sobibór, and Treblinka), a wall separated the gassing and cremations area from the reception. There was disagreement during the trial concerning the total number of people murdered at Treblinka. The three camps of Operation Reinhardt were exclusively extermination camps. Treblinka was constructed to exterminate the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto. Operation Reinhardt lasted from spring 1942 to fall 1943, and Spiess estimates the total number of deaths from all three camps to be between 1.8 and 2 million people. The actions carried out under Operation Reinhardt were disorganized. The first Commandant of Treblinka, Irmfried Eberl, allowed more transports than the camp had the capacity to kill. Trains arriving at Treblinka had to wait for Jews in previous trains to be "processed" before they could pull up to the ramp. As a result, many people died standing, packed in the train cars. Spiess tells Lanzmann a mountain of corpses 200 meters long and 2 meters tall was formed along the ramp. The Jews were told they were being sent to the east to be re-settled. The sick and frail were taken to a "hospital," called the Lazaret, with the Red Cross emblem on the outside, where they were shot in the neck. They were taken to the Lazaret so as not to impede the smooth process of the mass gassings. SS officer Willi Mentz carried out the shootings in the Lazaret.
FILM ID 3896 -- CR 5-7
When the leader of Operation Reinhardt, Odilo Globocnik, visited Treblinka and saw the state of disarray the camp was in, he fired Eberl and put Franz Stangl and Christian Wirth in charge. Larger gas chambers were constructed and the transports of Jews began again. Stangl made the decision to keep the experienced work units for longer periods of time because they worked faster. Most of the camp was burned down during the revolt on August 2, 1943, with the exception of the gas chambers, which were made of concrete. Murder in the gas chambers was carried out with the use of a Russian tank engine. It took about 25 minutes to murder those in a gas chamber, and occasionally victims would survive the gassing only to be shot once the doors were opened. Spiess describes how the Jews were processed upon entering the camp. Before entering the gas chambers, the Jews had to hand their valuables over at a "cashier's counter" headed by Franz Suchomel. The victims were forced to run through a path in the tube, called the "Way to Heaven" by the prisoners, which brought them to the gas chambers. The tube had many turns so the prisoners could not see the dead bodies being removed from the chamber. The entrance to the gas chamber was flanked by flower pots to keep up the pretense that the prisoners were entering a bathhouse. With the possibility of the Allies approaching in spring 1943, the bodies of the murdered victims began to be destroyed. Spiess describes the cremation process and destruction of the camp by the Germans. The last prisoners in the camp after the revolt on August 2, 1943 were liquidated on November 30, 1943. At the beginning of the Treblinka trial in 1964, there were 53 survivors out of the one million who entered Treblinka's gates. Spiess states that if it were not for the revolt there would be no survivors. Spiess believes the final push for a revolt came from the prisoners who had been brought to Treblinka from the Warsaw ghetto immediately following the uprising.
FILM ID 3897 -- CR 8-10
700 prisoners escaped and sought refuge in the surrounding woods, but only 70 escaped the German troops who were called to track down the prisoners. Spiess finds it symbolic of the German master race mentality that the SS could not imagine that the oppressed, beaten Jews could initiate and succeed in a revolt. Spiess says there is a difference between the Germans who shrank from killing, and those for whom murdering became a normality. The former participated in the Nazi regime, while the latter willingly identified with the regime's will to murder. In some cases, a defendant was sentenced to life imprisonment because he identified with the regime's will to murder. Operation Reinhardt was composed of 100 to 120 German SS. The Germans took supervisory roles in the camps while Ukrainians and Jewish prisoners worked under their command. Jewish workers in the camps were replaceable and lived in a constant state of deception and terror, which made resistance nearly impossible. The SS of Operation Reinhardt came from a variety of vocations, most having previously worked on the T4 euthanasia project where they became accustomed to murder. Lanzmann and Spiess discuss the culpability of those who knew less than others about what was occurring under Operation Reinhardt.
FILM ID 3898 -- CR 11-12
At the close of Operation Reinhardt, Globocnik wrote an account summarizing it's economic contribution. From currency, precious metals, gold, clothing, and other valuables stolen from the Jews and other victims, a total of 100 million Reichsmarks were placed into the Reichsbank. The number of people murdered, however, was not recorded. Lanzmann and Spiess discuss how much a person working in Department 33 at the East Railway, local citizens, and others throughout Europe knew of the camps. Fear of being accused of spreading atrocity propaganda prevented many who knew of the extermination camps from sharing their knowledge.
FILM ID 3899 -- CR 12A-13

As a Reichsbahn official, Walter Stier scheduled the journeys of special trains to different death camps. He claims he knew nothing of the destination. Lanzmann used a false name and filmed this interview with a hidden camera.
FILM ID 3800 - Stier 1-4A [CR 1,4,2,3]
CR1 (silent) INT minivan with video transmission of the interview with Stier on a television monitor. 01:00:57 Volkswagon van on street approaching camera, parking. 01:01:39 CR4 (sound) Van parked next to residence. Zoom, CUs. White/red minivan with plate 307CAE75. 01:03:01 CR2 (sound) Side view of the van, exteriors. CU of the moving antenna. 01:03:35 CR3 (silent) Short shot of the minibus, image out from 01:03:47 to 01:03:55. CU antenna.
FILM ID 3801 - Stier 1A-2B [CR 1A,2A,2B]
(sound and image in and out throughout reel) Lanzmann and Stier recall the names of European regions formerly part of the Third Reich. Lanzmann uses a false name, and Stier refers to him as Dr. Sorel. Stier began working in the head office of the Eastern Railways soon after its inception in Krakow in 1939, and was transferred to Warsaw in July 1943 when he was promoted to head of the scheduling bureau. Department 33 aided the Reichsbahn by supplying "special" trains to transport Jews to concentration camps. The Reich traffic ministry in Berlin ordered special trains from Department 33. Despite having been tried as an accessory to murder, Stier maintains that he knew nothing of the purpose of the transports. He vehemently states he sat behind a desk for the duration of the war and that he was only responsible for arranging train schedules.
FILM ID 3802 - Stier 3A-5A [CR 3A,3B,4A,5,5A]
(sound and image in and out throughout reel) None of Stier's supervisors were indicted for any crimes. Although his office in Krakow was relatively close to Auschwitz, Stier claims he had no idea that over one million people were being exterminated there. Lanzmann shows Stier a summary report of train schedules from Department 33 indicating that Jews were transported from ghettos to various concentration camps. Stier points out that all the trains are recorded as leaving the camps empty. Stier never saw any of the trains he assisted in sending to concentration camps or the ghettos their victims came from. He tells Lanzmann that there were members of the Nazi Party in Department 33, and those who were not members were forced to join under threat of losing their job. Stier joined the Nazi Party in 1939.
FILM ID 3803 - Stier 6-7 [CR 6,7]
(sound and image in and out throughout reel) As a member of the Nazi Party, Stier received extra food and alcohol which was not available to non-party members during rationing. He once gave his Polish assistant, Stanislaus Pfalz, spare food and tells Lanzmann that he and others in the department would have done anything to help. Everybody had an idea of what the transports of Jews to the East was, but it was not discussed until the end of the war. Even if Stier had known the truth, he would have remained silent out of fear. After the war, Stier worked for a British Station Officer as an interpreter where he scheduled and witnessed trains arriving from the East with survivors of the camps.
FILM ID 3868 -- 8,9 Son Seul Chemin de fer (audio only, there is no corresponding 16mm image)
Stier did not believe Germany would lose the war until the fall of Stalingrad. Stier shows Lanzmann pictures of his family and co-workers during the war, including a photo of Franz Stangl. Stier was called as a witness to many of the postwar trials for high-ranking Nazis. #9 Stier and Lanzmann discuss the statute of limitations and how it may prevent further convictions of Nazis, something Stier finds fault with. He claims that if he had murdered anyone he should have to be held responsible.
FILM ID 3310 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Stier Camera Roll #1) -- 14:00:10 to 14:07:12 (preserved with Gewecke)
Mute color shots of two technicians in the van that received the video feed from the hidden camera interview. The technicians watch the image, listen to the sound, and make adjustments. CU on the black and white image. The man being interviewed is Stier.
FILM ID 3312 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Stier Camera Roll #7) -- 16:00:11 to 16:08:06 (preserved with Gewecke)
Continuation of the scene in the van. One of the technicians adjusts an antenna. Again, the image shows Stier.

Josef Oberhauser was a SS officer in Belzec. He was interviewed in a Munich beer hall and refuses to answer many of Lanzmann's questions. Oberhauser answers Lanzmann's questions regarding the beer he sells, but refuses to respond to questions concerning his days as an SS officer in Belzec. Lanzmann attempts to interview former SS officer Mr. Oberhauser in the beer hall where he works. Trying to warm Oberhauser up to an interview, Lanzmann asks Oberhauser how many liters of beer he sells a day. After asking several times, Oberhauser answers that he sells 45 liters a day. He tells Lanzmann that he has worked in the beer house for twenty years, and that the best beer comes from the tap. When Lanzmann asks if he remembers Belzec, Oberhauser becomes quiet. He does not respond when Lanzmann asks further probing questions, or when Lanzmann requests to arrange an interview at another location.
FILM ID 3605 -- Oberhauser 1, Holocaust, Brasserie Munich 107, 1;2;3
FILM ID 3606 -- Oberhauser 2, Holocaust, Brasserie Munich 108,

As chief of the German Reichsbahn, Albert Ganzenmüller was responsible for the employment of deportation trains. In July 1942, he wrote a letter to Karl Wolff describing the deportation trains from Warsaw to Malkinia to Treblinka. Claude Lanzmann talks about the letter by Ganzenmueller in a short recording in French.
FILM ID 3608 -- Ganzenmuller 1, prise 1;2;3
FILM ID 3609 -- Ganzenmuller 2, prise 9

FILM ID 3869 -- Camera Rolls Goldberg 176,177
No clapperboard. Audio operator speaking French and street noise to 1:34. Lanzmann and Corinna Coulmas start by asking Malka Abramson Goldberg about her business, children, and grandchildren. Goldberg then tells them that she was in the Warsaw ghetto, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Ravensbrück, and Malhof before immigrating first to Sweden and then to the city in which the interview takes place (probably Tel Aviv). At Lanzmann's prompting, Goldberg explains that she was part of the resistance, but does not remember specific dates such as when she was arrested or when she arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Malka's husband Jakob helps Goldberg with the timeline of her camp experiences and, after Lanzmann asks whether or not they know the song, Goldberg and the men sing part of the Yiddish resistance song "Undzer shtetl brent!" ("Our Town is Burning!"). After a brief break and more prompting by Lanzmann and Corinna, they sing a bit more of the song.
FILM ID 3870 -- Coupe Varsovie
Silent shots of street scenes in Israel (probably Tel Aviv). Goldberg and the two men in a shop.

Bronislaw Falborski witnessed the deportation of Jews from Kolo to Chelmno. He talks about the speed of the gas vans. This interview takes place in Falborski’s home in Poland and was recorded during Lanzmann’s second trip to Poland.
FILM ID 3809 -- Camera Rolls 1-5
CR 1;2;3 (Rue à Midevits) CU, framed painting of Mary nursing baby Jesus on the wall. Mr. Falborski was the private driver for May from the autumn of 1941 to 1942. May lived in the house of a former forest warden, named Gay, in a town near Kolo. Falborski also lived in the house of an evicted forest warden. The wardens had been evicted because they were Polish. Falborski did not know German that well when he first began working for May, but after one year they could communicate without gestures. May supervised the German forest wardens in the area. Lanzmann asks when Falborski first learned of the exterminations in Chelmno.
CR 4 (Tyzem) Falborski was almost shot the first time he went to Chelmno. He had parked the car in the forest to let May out, and decided to follow May into the woods. About 100 meters along the forest path he was stopped by a Gestapo who demanded to know what Falborski was doing in the woods. The Gestapo had his gun aimed at Falborski when May came back and stopped Falborski from being shot. He moved the car back to a forest warden's house. The state employee who lived there told Falborski that Jews were being exterminated in the forest. Falborski did not discuss this with May, but with May's wife. Falborski claims he cannot say anything bad about May, as was always treated well by him. Falborski went to the forest many times, as well as the village of Chelmno. Falborski describes how the Polish citizens of Chelmno had been evicted and the castle became the designated camp for the Jews.
CR5 (Tyzem) Gas vans would leave the castle at the same time empty vans from the forest would return. Typically, two people sat in the front of the grey vans. They drove the vans slowly, at a calculated speed, so that the people inside would die before the van reached the forest. Once, a forest warden named Sendjak told Farboski a van had skidded. The Jewish prisoners fell out of the back of the van, still alive, and started to crawl on the ground. One of the Gestapo drivers shot them with his revolver. They Gestapo men then made the Jews of the Sonderkommando put the bodies back in the van and took them to be dumped in the clearing. The mass graves were roughly 500 to 700 meters from the road. Though he never went near the graves, Falborski and May could smell the odor of the decaying bodies. This was the only time the two men referred to the Jews.
FILM ID 3810 -- Camera Roll 6
CR6 Falborski knew what was happening in Chelmno because a young man in the Gestapo told him. The man told Falborski that Jews entering the camp were told they had to go through a disinfection process. Before they were taken away, their jewelry and gold teeth were forcibly removed. Finally, they were forced into the vans and taken to the forest. In Kolo, the city where Falborski lived, the Jews were grouped together at the synagogue and then chased by Germans to the train station which took them to Chelmno.

Henry Feingold, a distinguished scholar on the subject of America and the Holocaust, addresses American Jewry, refugee visas, Jewish leaders in the U.S., and the War Refugee Board in this interview.
FILM ID 3565 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 347 [Take NY (II) 146]
Feingold discusses what he calls the "illusion of a civilized spirit" by referencing Szmul Zygielbojm, who committed suicide in protest and in an attempt to turn the attention of the Allies toward the genocide of Jews in Europe. Historically, Jews had more societal and political advantages than other minority groups, such as pre-World War I German Americans, though the Great Depression lead to a new wave of antisemitism in the United States, Feingold states that new studies into the German-American Bund indicate antisemitism was not as powerful as previously thought. The New Deal was intended to help Americans in need after the Great Depression, but prevented Jewish refugees from seeking safety in the United States.
FILM ID 3566 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 348 [Take NY (II) 147]
Feingold poses the question of how American Jewry, with their rich infrastructure and political ties, were unable to move the Roosevelt administration to aid European Jews. A segment of Jewish society believed strongly in the power of democracy, suggesting this complacency prevented Jews from taking more action. He then discusses the opposite: that Jews did not actually have the power to mobilize support, as the "spirit of civilization" did not exist around them to help.
FILM ID 3567 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 349 [Take NY (II) 148]
Feingold describes the Evian conference and the visa extensions given to Jews in America. They were issued on the pretense of action, but their real purpose was to conceal the inaction of the Roosevelt administration; a policy which Feingold terms the "politics of gestures."
FILM ID 3568 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 350 [Take NY (II) 149;150]
The Allies believed the problem of Jewish refugees could be taken care of through philanthropic means, and believed so much in the concept of money coming to the rescue that actual aid by the Roosevelt administration never materialized. Money also became a central focus with the ransom of individual Jewish families out of Nazi Europe. These ransoms aided the military efforts of Nazi Germany. Feingold discusses the assumption that "international Jewry" would come to the rescue. The Roosevelt administration hid the problems facing the Jews of Europe behind new terminology: "political refugees."
FILM ID 3569 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 351 [Take NY (II) 151;152]
Feingold discusses the American Jewish Conference of 1943. Participants in the conference dismissed the idea of helping the Jews of Europe and instead focused their interests on the creation of a national homeland in Palestine. A revisionist group under Peter Bergson gave priority to the rescue of Jews. Feingold debates the efficacy of the ideals of this group and whether they were too radical too soon. Depression, antisemitism, and restrictive immigration legislation in the United States prevented Jews from being rescued during the Holocaust. The prevailing war aim was that Jews could only be rescued through Allied victory.
FILM ID 3570 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 352 [Take NY (II) 153]
Lanzmann asks Feingold whether history would have been different had the Evian conference gone differently. Feingold is not certain, but tells Lanzmann that the silence from the Pope and inaction from Roosevelt and the International Red Cross encouraged the Nazi belief that they could get away with the extermination of the Jews. They discuss the White Paper British policy made in May 1943 which restricted the sale of land and immigration to Palestine.
FILM ID 3571 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 353 [Take NY (II) 154;155;156]
Lanzmann and Feingold discuss the Bermuda conference, including several plans to rescue the Jews which were debated but ultimately not acted upon. The conference, coincidentally and dramatically according to Feingold, occurred on the same day as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Feingold labels the conference an extension of the "politics of gestures," that began at the Evian conference in 1938. In between picture recordings, Lanzmann can be heard telling Feingold to look at him, not the interpreter, during filming. The interview continues. Another facet of how the conference failed to address the annihilation of European Jewry was to focus instead on helping the Jews who had already been rescued but living in precarious places throughout Europe. Breckinridge Long did not want to make the war primarily about saving the Jews. Instead, it was made to look like a refugee problem, void of any racial or religious ties.
FILM ID 3572 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 354 [Take NY (II) 157;158]
In November 1943, Long is discovered to have exaggerated the number of Jewish refugees in the United States and thus a powerful force behind preventing the entrance of Jews into the United States. As a result of Long's downfall, Henry Morgenthau Jr. was tasked with the creation of the War Refugee Board. If Hitler had released one million unwanted Jews from the camps and ghettos, Feingold states the United States and Britain would have been in trouble, as neither country wanted to admit that many Jewish refugees into their countries. They discuss the controversy over why Auschwitz was not bombed.
FILM ID 3573 -- Feingold, New York; Audio Reel 355 [Take NY (II) 160]
Lanzmann and Feingold continue to discuss the controversy over why Auschwitz was not bombed and the potential efficacy of bombing German cities in retaliation, rather than the camps.

Ambassador Robert Borden Reams was interviewed about American diplomats during a fishing and golfing trip in Panama City, Florida. Ambassador Reams agreed to meet with Lanzmann on the condition that there would be no formal interview, and that topics such as the Bermuda Conference, governmental policies and the State Department during World War II would not discussed. He refuses to tell Lanzmann why he doesn't want to talk about them. Much of Lanzmann's and the Ambassador's time together is spent fishing and golfing, although he eventually opens up to Lanzmann's questions.
FILM ID 3875 -- Camera Rolls 1-9 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:25:59
In Florida, several takes of Lanzmann driving to
Ambassador’s home. 01:05:00 Lanzmann and Ambassador Reams fish, various shots, some takes without sound, some shots include Mrs. Dotty Reams fishing. They do not discuss Reams’ role at the State Department during World War II.
FILM ID 3876 -- Camera Rolls 10-16 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:13:34
Various shots of the Ambassador’s home in Florida, “REAMS 130” sign, and Dotty driving a golf cart. Lanzmann golfs with Ambassador Reams and his wife Dotty. They do not discuss Reams’ role at the State Department during World War II.
FILM ID 3877 -- Camera Rolls 20.24 Reams interview Peche — 00:59:50 to 01:18:28
Inside the Ambassador’s home, Lanzmann speaks to Reams and his wife Dotty, who are seated in red club chairs. At Lanzmann’s request, Dotty reads the text of a certificate from President Kennedy on the wall in their home. Reams says he is very fond of Lanzmann, but refuses to discuss the topic of diplomatic affairs during World War II; they talk about making good martinis before Lanzmann tries to convince him to relate an anecdote about another person who “took part in this film.” 01:10:18 CR24 Reams addresses his role as Ambassador to Syria. They discuss the roles of Breckinridge Long (Assistant Secretary of State), Cordell Hull, and Sumner Wells and the divisions of the Department of State. They talk about Long’s infamous diary and Hull’s Jewish wife.
FILM ID 3878 -- Camera Rolls 21-23 Reams interview Documents — 01:00:00 to 01:03:19
Mute shots of a wall inside Reams’ home with framed diplomatic certificates from Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy as well as a portrait of Reams during World War II and guns.
FILM ID 3877 -- Camera Rolls 25-27 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:23:16
They continue talking about Breckinridge Long and his diary. Dotty was one of Long's personal secretaries. Reams says that Long felt unjustly treated. Reams explains his role in the European Division covering the affairs of Greenland, Denmark, South Africa, as well as the refugee problem. 01:05:28 CR26 Patriotism is very important to Reams. He says he is not an isolationist, rather a realist. 01:11:21 CR27 Reams compliments Lanzmann’s film crew. Lanzmann presses Reams about working on the refugee problem. Reams was made Secretary of the Intergovernmental Committee during World War II. He claims the committee didn’t exist, that he had a title but no power or function. Lanzmann asks what Washington DC was like in 1942 and 1943 for those in positions to make political decisions; for example, what was the meaning of Auschwitz? He doesn’t remember. In the first half of 1942, the Ambassador was interned in Germany dealing with war rations; he had been taken from Denmark with his staff as the Chargés d'Affaires of the American Legation in Copenhagen. In April 1943, Reams was sent as a Representative of the United States to the Bermuda Conference; he does not remember whether he knew that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising occurred at the same time. He alludes to the fact that he knew what was happening to the Jews of Europe as Chef de Cabinet for Jimmy Burns, but Lanzmann’s questions do not trigger strong feelings or memories from that the time. Lanzmann again asks what the meaning of Auschwitz was for Reams, living peacefully in Washington. Reams says “I simply cannot answer” but admits he’s afraid of an atomic war.

Richard Rubenstein, an American professor, relates his position on stateless people, bureaucracy, and the role of churches during the Holocaust.
FILM ID 3871 -- Camera Rolls TALA 1-5 Allies
CR1 Professor Rubenstein begins the interview by describing the beauty of Wakulla Springs, near Tallahassee, Florida, where the interview will take place. Lanzmann asks if it is a fitting place to talk about the Holocaust, to which Rubenstein answers it is as fitting as any other place, as the Holocaust was so unnatural and destructive. 01:02:22 CR2 He implies the similarities of the sanctuary in which the bird and alligator species live to the plight of the Holocaust survivors. Lanzmann asks Rubenstein to explain the central theme of his book, which regards the stateless Jews directly preceding the Holocaust. Rubenstein believes that a fundamental step which allowed the Holocaust to occur was the Jews being denied their political rights. Normal protections provided by laws no longer applied to them. Rubenstein mentions that some people believe the Germans violated God's law.
01:11:05 CR4 This violation against God's law held no punishment as those who were regarded as interpreters of God's will did not criticize the Holocaust at the time. There was silence throughout Europe in the churches and other religious places. In some European countries before WWII, it was better to be a criminal - to be a person who was entitled to rights and treated as a human being - than to be a law-abiding stateless person. Rubenstein discusses the problems societies face with over population. Hitler studied German population movements to Argentina, and was thus aware of the strains a surplus of people would impose on the economy of a country. Rubenstein points out that Hitler, as well as Himmler, Heydrich and other leading Nazi officials, could themselves have fallen into the category of surplus urbanites. However, they seized total control and thus had the power to decide who was surplus. While Jews contributed to German society in a variety of professions, the non-Jewish lower middle class was at high risk economic instability and saw the Jews as foreigners and competitors.
01:22:17 CR5 Rubenstein disagrees with Lanzmann when he says that Western democracies showed humanitarian concern for the Jewish refugees at the Evian Conference. He believes their concern to have been for show and a means to placate one another. From 1936 to 1938, Poland sought to get rid of their Jewish population, going as far as establishing an apartheid between Christian and Jewish Poles. Lanzmann asks if the Holocaust could have been avoided had the Western powers and Latin America opened their doors. All Rubenstein can say with certainty is that the situation would have been radically different. He also believes that the British government saw the elimination of the Jews as a positive. Far fewer sought refuge in Palestine, which at the time was under British rule.
FILM ID 3872 -- Camera Rolls TALA 6-10 Allies
CR6 In May 1939 Britain declared, with the exception of 75,000 people over the next five years, that Jews could not enter Palestine. According to Rubenstein, this decision was a death sentence and that those responsible for the decision were just as culpable for the Holocaust as the Germans. Jewish resistance in Poland was not possible, as Jews there did not have the support of the population, who themselves also viewed the extermination of the Jews of Poland as a positive. Rubenstein also claims that Roosevelt saw a large influx of European Jews into the United States as detrimental to his political coalition, and went as far as to prevent the Jewish settlement in Palestine from achieving political independence. The bombing of Auschwitz and the railroad would have been symbolic, and would have demonstrated to the world that what the Germans were doing was horrific. As this was not done, the Germans did not see that the murder of European Jewry was a top issue with the Allies. Rubenstein explains the fundamental differences between the Jewish and Christian religions, and that that these differences led the Christians of Europe to view the Jews as dangerous to their system of beliefs. Consequently, they had to be contained, converted or expelled.
CR8 01: 13:08 CR9 01:13:20 CR10 01:13:38 Although expulsion of Jewish culture and religion from Christian Europe was supported by many church leaders, they did not understand that this would involve murder. While many individuals endeavored to save Jews, the overall policy in many countries was to allow the extermination of Jews to occur. Rubenstein discusses how the Holocaust was a bureaucratic process from start to finish. It began with the legal division of Jews from their Christian German counterparts and encompassed the collaboration of the post offices, banks and railroads. One did not have to hate Jews to kill them, they simply had to perform their job under a bureaucracy. In this way, people were able to evade responsibility for what their actions ultimately did. The combination of German cold-blooded rationality and Polish hatred for the Jews made the Final Solution a possibility.
FILM ID 3873 -- Camera Rolls TALA 4A,6A,7A,11A Reserve Tallahassee
Mute reel with nature shots of Wakulla Springs.
FILM ID 3874 – Camera Rolls Coupe 6B,11
Mute reel with nature shots of Wakulla Springs, as well as CUs of Rubenstein and Lanzmann.
FILM ID 3586 -- Son Seul

Helena Pietyra describes her experience living near the city of Auschwitz, Poland.
FILM ID 3448 -- Interview Auschwitz Pietyra -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:04 to 01:24:13
Roll 1 Madam Pietyra sits in the living room of the apartment she occupies in Auschwitz. Pietyra is citizen of Auschwitz. She was born in Auschwitz and has never left. She recounts that Auschwitz was a predominantly Jewish city before the war. Most of the city was occupied by the Jewish citizens, including the apartment Pietyra lives in, while only a few buildings belonged to Catholic citizens. Overall, the Jews were liked. The non-Jewish citizens liked their Jewish neighbors because they allowed customers to purchase goods on credit and did not charge any interest. There was a synagogue and a Jewish cemetery in the city. Both were damaged during the war, and while the synagogue was completely destroyed the cemetery remains, though it is no longer in use. The Nazis destroyed the graves in the cemetery, and then the houses.
01:06:49 Roll 2 Deportation of the Jews of Auschwitz started in 1940. According to Madam Pietyra, they took with them only what they could carry. This explains the presence of furniture from the Jewish inhabitants when Pietyra moved into her apartment in 1940. The Jews who were deported from Auschwitz, as well as Jews from all over Europe, were brought to Auschwitz camp for extermination. Madam Pietyra and the citizens of Auschwitz knew that Jews were being gassed in the Auschwitz concentration camp, because Polish railway men who worked there would leak information. Sometimes when Pietyra took the train, she would pass train carriages in which Jews were being transported to Auschwitz. She remembers seeing the barbed wire in the windows and the faces of the Jews behind. When the wind blew from the west, the citizens of Auschwitz could smell the odor of burning bodies. Yet if an outsider visited the city and inquired about the smell, the citizens would not tell them what the cause was, as it was dangerous to speak the truth. The resistance was active and Pietyra's brother was a member. After the Jews were deported, the Polish population made up the majority of the city. The Germans lived in houses.
01:17:23 Roll 3 Lanzmann asks Madam Pietyra if she knew at the time how the Jews were being killed. Pietyra states that at the time she and other citizens of Auschwitz knew Jews were being gassed and killed in other ways. They knew the extermination of the Jews was on a large scale, since convoys arrived all the time to the camp. Though it was painful to stay in the city after the war, Pietyra claims that almost everyone stayed in order to make a living. Catholic cemeteries were bombed by the English during the war, as there were munition stores underneath. The camp itself was never bombed. The city of Auschwitz remains very similar to how it was before the war, except for a German bunker which was turned into a store. A member of Lanzmann's camera crew says at 01:23:28 "Auschwitz marketplace general sound atmosphere." Sounds from the street.

Two rolls of location filming of scenes in New York City for SHOAH.
FILM ID 3449 -- Camera Rolls NY 39.39A.139-142.161 La Ville -- 01:00:01 to 01:08:51
Car on Brooklyn Bridge going into Manhattan. World Trade Center (WTC) and Woolworth Building on left. Manhattan Municipal Building on right. Car on BB going towards Brooklyn. Financial District straight ahead. Major buildings from left to right Chemical Bank Building (at far left), 120 Wall Street (stepped design). The two tall buildings in BG are First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street (the tallest building in this group). 01:00:41 First, a view of Brooklyn, then the camera spins around showing the Financial District again. Statue of Liberty in distance. 01:01:01 Governors Island and Brooklyn. Yellow building is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). 01:01:15 Brooklyn Bridge coming into lower Manhattan with the Manhattan Municipal Building on the right. 01:01:22 Pace University on left, WTC between Pace University and Woolworth Building. 01:01:30 New York City Hall behind the trees. 01:01:45 FDR Drive heading north towards Brooklyn Bridge and South Street Seaport. 01:01:56 Fulton Fish Market, Brooklyn Bridge and Manhattan Bridge in distance. 01:02:25 Manhattan Bridge. 01:02:43 FDR Drive going south and the Manhattan Bridge. 01:03:40 On-ramp to Brooklyn Bridge going into Brooklyn. After turn onto bridge, shots of the Manhattan Municipal Building, Murry Bergtraum High School, and New York Telephone Building on left. 01:03:56 In Lower Manhattan. St. Paul Chapel driving north. 01:04:17 World Trade Center. 01:05:22 Statue of Liberty. 01:05:52 Brooklyn Heights looking towards the Brooklyn Bridge. 01:06:25 Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan, WTC, Chase Manhattan Bank (left). 01:06:53 FDR Drive south with views of the Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge.
FILM ID 3450 -- New York La Ville Doubles -- 01:00:00 to 01:08:37
Statute of Liberty and views of the lower Manhattan Financial District filmed from Brooklyn Heights. 01:00:32 Red Hook in Brooklyn. Pan of ships, Statue of Liberty, Staten Island Ferry Terminal, and the Financial District. 01:01:43 Brooklyn Heights' Promenade with a jogger running towards camera. Pedestrians strolling. Camera pulls back and shows Brooklyn Bridge looking towards Midtown Manhattan, then pan from north to south. In BG, Empire State Building, residential building, New York Telephone Building, Manhattan Municipal Building, World Trade Center, 120 Wall Street (stepped design), First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street are the tall buildings in "front" of WTC. 01:02:15:09 Midtown Manhattan seen from the observation deck (86th floor) Empire State Building. Pan shot from west to east looking uptown, then camera pans down slightly and moves back from east to west. 01:02:57 Looking uptown from the World Trade Center observation deck (100th floor). Empire State Building straight ahead. Camera pans east to East River. Zoom-in of Domino's Sugar plant just past the bridge; the gas tanks in the BG were on Maspeth Ave. in Brooklyn. 01:03:33 Same as previous shot except starts with a closer shot of the Empire State Building, and zooms-in closer to Domino's. 01:04:10 Repeat of previous shot.
01:04:45 Shot from WTC of Brooklyn Bridge. Yellow building to right is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). Pan up the East River past the Manhattan Bridge to the Williamsburg Bridge and zoom-in on the Domino's Sugar plant. 01:05:17 Repeat of previous shot, except camera pulls back and pans to the left back to Manhattan and continues west stopping on the Empire State Building. 01:06:19 Manhattan Bridge from WTC. 01:06:39 Lower East Side or Jewish Orthodox neighborhood in Brooklyn. 01:06:53 Sunrise looking south towards WTC from ESB. Pan to the east side of lower Manhattan. 01:07:30 ESB looking south-east towards the Manhattan Bridge. 01:08:02 Dawn looking south towards WTC. Similar to previous shots. Clap-board on the ESB Observation Deck.

Location filming of Auschwitz and Birkenau in winter for SHOAH.
FILM ID 3451 -- Auschwitz 48D-64B / Birkenau int. camp (white label 69) -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:25
Museum sign on Auschwitz-Birkenau grounds in four languages regarding the cremating pits, mass transports, and extermination. WS sign, remains of crematorium in BG, guard-tower. WS building remains, sign regarding the destruction of the crematorium by the Sonderkommando in 1944. Pan of snow-covered camp grounds. Quick shot of Lanzmann with fur hat standing in the field. CU, reeds, barbed wire fence, building remains, pan. 01:05:13 HAS of the barracks, panning along the barbed wire fence. 01:07:32 Railway going to main entrance. 01:08:20 Quick view of Lanzmann in a coat and fur hat. Pan of snow-covered ruins, pit, ground, pan up to barbed-wire fence and building rubble. "Krematorium II" sign. More pans of the camp grounds, lake, fence, guard tower.
FILM ID 3612 -- Majdanek R.1 / Auschwitz Bte. 21.22 / Chutes 13 (white label 13/14) -- 01:00:12 to 01:11:13
Large cross decorated with a wreath on a roadside. Shots of snow-covered fields in Poland from a moving vehicle. CR22 Slow pan of homes in a village in Poland in late winter (near Oswiecem?). Local Poles stand in the doorway of a building with horse-drawn carriages. More views of housing in the town. 01:05:47 LS, slow pan of grassy fields. Muddy road. CU, tall wooden pillar with a cross at the top. More housing in town, locals, dirt roads, religious statues. Church. Snow-covered field.

Minibus with equipment for hidden camera interviews, staged in the suburbs of Paris at Saint Cloud, near the LTC Studio where the final film's editing was done, in May 1983. It is possible that this reel was staged in France rather late in the film's production to illustrate a sequence about the hidden camera interviews for the final film (note the closeups of the minibus and the "home" of a perpetrator -- the zoom into a specific window, for instance).
FILM ID 3452 -- Ext. Camionette / Camera Rolls 1-4-6, 14-26
Several sequences showing exteriors of the red-striped Volkswagen minibus with the equipment for transmitting Lanzmann's hidden camera interviews. The minibus arrives at a residential destination and parks. The driver exits the vehicle and enters the back using a sliding side door. The camera zooms in on several residences, homes, and apartments. 01:04:48 Collision with fast-moving lorry.

Perry Broad spent two years as a guard in Auschwitz Birkenau. Broad voluntarily wrote a report of his activities whilst working for the British as a translator in a POW camp after the war. The Broad Report corroborates extermination installations and the burning of corpses. This interview was filmed in 1979 with a hidden camera, known as a Paluche, which caught fire.
FILM ID 3438 -- Camera Rolls 1A -- 02:00:18 to 02:12:29
Lanzmann and Broad begin the interview by discussing the recently presented television miniseries, Holocaust. Broad states that he can face the past, but cannot dominate it.
FILM ID 3439 -- Camera Rolls 2A,3A,4A -- 03:00:12 to 03:26:09
Roll 2A The Holocaust would not have been possible were it not for the collaboration of several European countries. Broad expands on this by mentioning the train cars that took Jews to the camps always left the camps empty, implying that ordinary people who witnessed these events knew what was going on. Broad claims he cannot comprehend racial discrimination and anti-Semitism.
03:15:04 Roll 3A Broad refuses on principle to participate in interviews for television programs like the BBC, or for books, regarding the Holocaust.
03:19:17 Roll 4A Lanzmann and Broad discuss the report Broad wrote, specifically the atmosphere of the camp described in the report.
FILM ID 3441 -- Camera Rolls 5,6,7 -- 05:00:13 to 05:25:14
Roll 5 Citizens of the town of Auschwitz knew what was occurring in the nearby camps. Lanzmann wants Broad's permission to ask specific questions and to record them with a tape recorder. Broad is visibly uncomfortable and asks that Lanzmann first ask the question without the recorder. Lanzmann asks Broad if he remembers a Jewish Kapo named Jakubowitz, in Block 11 of Auschwitz. Broad remembers he was a boxer who was responsible for taking care of the dead bodies after executions, and physically man-handled prisoners soon to be executed. He describes him as a "very big man," and "primitive." Broad claims to have seen only two or three executions in Block 11, because he worked mostly in Birkenau at the Zigeunerlager, the portion of the camp designated for Roma. Broad draws an aerial view of the camp for Lanzmann, showing the crematoria, Roma section and women's camp. It was difficult for the authorities of Auschwitz-Birkenau to identify Roma families as they went by nicknames.
05:10:01 Roll 6 Broad began working in Birkenau in 1943, after working in Auschwitz. He attempted to leave Auschwitz several times. He tried to leave for the front but was denied because his eye sight was bad. He went back to the main part of the camp and never returned to the Roma camp.
05:13:37 Roll 7 Lanzmann states that testimonies of people who worked at the camps, as opposed to prisoners, give a more complete geographical and topographical account of the layout of the camps. Broad mentions the aerial image of Auschwitz taken by Americans during the Holocaust as well as the map he drew in 1945. Both are available to the public. Broad states that the prisoners never exhibited any violence prior to their gassing as they were too emotionally and physically tormented by that point. In order to become an interpreter for the Reich Main Security Office, Broad had to work for the SS in Auschwitz. He was depressed and very ill there, claiming he lost all interest in life. He was twenty-one years old.
FILM ID 3442 -- Camera Rolls 8-11 -- 06:02:01 to 06:18:38
Roll 8 Broad describes a meeting his aunt arranged with a Mr. Baumert, a member of the Nazi party paramilitary. Baumert proposed that Broad go to Stuttgart to become an SD officer. Broad refused the offer. Baumert told Broad that nobody was being killed in Auschwitz, that his friend Höss would have told him so. Broad states that Baumert was fully aware of what was going on, but did not want to admit it. During this meeting, Baumert told Broad that he had received negative reports on Broad. The reports regarded his perceived Bolshevik activities while a student and later at Auschwitz. However, nothing ever came of the negative reports, Broad thinks due to the level of respect his aunt had within the Nazi party. Broad's aunt knew Hitler through her father, who was a professor in Berlin and a painter. Lanzmann asks Broad how the two transports of Czech families from the Theresienstadt camp behaved when they were led to the gas chambers in Auschwitz.
06:11:26 Roll 9 Broad is unable to corroborate the extreme violence the SS guards placed on the Czech families before they were gassed. Broad talks about a story he heard during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz.
06:14:45 Rolls 10-11 When the escapees from Auschwitz told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. Broad compares this disbelief to the behavior of the Hungarian prisoners at Auschwitz, explaining that their disbelief at their situation caused them not to react violently when let to the gas chambers. Broad believes the prisoners could have escaped easily if 2000 of them had rushed the fence. He claims there was no barbed wire on the fences and that they were not electrified.
FILM ID 3437 -- Camera Rolls 1,2,1A,2A -- Rushes -- 01:00:09 to 01:31:10
Roll 1 Interiors of the minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. Two technicians monitor the video and audio transmission. The picture goes in and out. Broad speaks in English about prisoners of Auschwitz and the ability to escape (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11). You can also hear the camera crew in the van in French.
01:05:38 Roll 2 Again from inside the minibus with the technicians speaking in French. The picture goes in and out. Broad talks about a story he heard of during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. When they told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11)
01:11:13 From inside the minibus, a crew member introduces Roll 1(1A?). He says something like "trying to tune into Perry Broad, we are interested in what he has to say. We will choose what Claude is interested in. There is no image, we only have the rushes." Broad claims he only entered the crematoria at Birkenau after it was shut down. He can describe the crematoria in detail because he had a friend who worked at the building administration for the camp. Plans of the camp, including the gas chambers, were publicly available. The crematorium looked like a factory. Lanzmann and Broad discuss the layout of the different crematoria. Broad describes an instance when a Sonderkommando said to a guard "give me one bread and I'll slaughter a hundred Jews."
01:22:27 From inside the minibus, the man on the left says "Perry Broad 2" as he uses the clapper (Roll 2A?). Broad shows Lanzmann the sentence leveled against him in the aftermath of the Holocaust. He describes a witness at his trial who overheard a conversation Broad had with a woman who had just arrived at the camp. When she asked if they were going to be murdered he told her not to believe the stories the inmates told. This account proved Broad's presence at the ramp during the selection process. Lanzmann adds that the Kanada Kommando, the Jewish inmates in charge of collecting victim's belongings, said the same thing to other prisoners about to be murdered.
FILM ID 3440 -- Camera Rolls 3,4 -- Camion Exterior -- 04:00:10 to 04:03:10
Exteriors of the red and white Volkswagen minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. The minibus is parked on Eugen-Langen Str. CUs, antenna. MS, apartment complex. Another shot of the exterior of the van and antenna.
FILM ID 3443 -- Camera Rolls 11-13A -- Int. Camion Broad -- 07:00:13 to 07:10:56
Views of an apartment balcony from a small window inside the minibus. A man (Broad?) is on the balcony. Zoom back to see inside the back of the minibus with equipment and crew recording the hidden camera interview. Broad can seen on the two video monitors in black and white. Zoom back to the outside through the window. 07:04:44 New roll shows the technicians inside the minibus, with sound. 07:08:14 Another roll from inside the minibus, zooming out the window to the balcony, no sound.
--- The following reels contain audio only. ---
FILM ID 3667 -- Broad 1 -- see picture above in FV3438 (Camera Roll 1A) and FV3439 (Camera Roll 2A).
FILM ID 3668 -- Broad 2 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Rolls 2A,3A) (FV3439). This audio roll begins with a some minutes of non-interview related chatter.
FILM ID 3669 -- Broad 3 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Roll 4A) and FV3441 (Camera Roll 5)
FILM ID 3670 -- Broad 4 -- see picture above in FV3441 (Camera Rolls 6,7)
FILM ID 3671 -- Broad 5 -- see picture above in FV3442 (Camera Rolls 8-11)
FILM ID 3682 -- Broad 16 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 1,1A)
FILM ID 3683 -- Broad 17 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 2A)
FILM ID 3672 -- Broad 6
Lanzmann asks if the reason Broad did not give names in his report was out of solidarity with the perpetrators. Broad dismisses this idea, claiming he did not care about the names of the butchers but rather the destiny of the inmates.
FILM ID 3673 -- Broad 7
Broad witnessed one gassing while working at Auschwitz. He witnessed unidentified SS men wearing gas masks pour Zyklon B through the roofs of the gas chambers. He saw two or three executions in the courtyard of Block 11, which the Gestapo Grabner and his staff where responsible for. Broad says he was lucky not to have to deal with the prisoners directly. Directly killing so many people was too much even for the SS, and so the gas chambers came into existence. Killings in the courtyard were very different, they were not anonymous and they were deliberately horrific. Broad fainted once from watching an execution in Block 11.
FILM ID 3674 -- Broad 8
They take a break to drink a bottle of champagne and discuss work. Lanzmann asks if Broad had any friends in the SS, to which he replies there is no such thing. He had a German friend named Karl Hueges who had to join the SS to avoid being put in a concentration camp himself. He was a Communist who according to Broad hated the SS. Yet after being imprisoned after the war in Ukraine, he became sympathetic to the Nazi regime.
FILM ID 3675 -- Broad 9
As an example of what he terms "the grotesque," Broad tells a story about an Jew named Unikower who was arrested by the Soviets after he was liberated from Auschwitz. In response to a question from Lanzmann Broad says he does not remember Yossele [Josef] Rosensaft, the so-called King of Bergen-Belsen. Broad defends his actions at Auschwitz by saying that he did not tell anyone about the activities and statements of Eisenschimmel, the Kapo of the Effektenkammer ["Kanada"], and that Dunia Wasserstrom, a survivor and witness at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, did not accuse him of murder. He provides another example of a witness who said that Broad disobeyed an order to send Jews to their deaths. When Lanzmann asks him whether anyone spoke against him at the trial Broad says yes but it was proved later that they could not have known him. Lanzmann asks Broad about the Auschwitz Hefte and Broad says he read them in prison and found them quite objective. Broad confirms that there was a brothel in the main camp and states that it was staffed with German prisoners, not Jews, because of the prohibition against race mixing (Rassenschande). He says that the brothel was used by privileged prisoners, not by the SS, "what would Himmler have said?"
FILM ID 3676 -- Broad 10
Broad remembers the SS Officer Johann Schwarzhuber, but not specific instances of his cruelty. Broad says that he doesn't have much to tell Lanzmann about Schwarzhuber or about Mengele. He says he remembered Mengele having a good relationship with the Roma and with the Jewish camp doctor and he found the later allegations against Mengele incomprehensible. Lanzmann asks whether Broad was at the selection ramp many times and Broad says that he was not assigned any duties at the ramp. Broad witnessed the selection process at the ramp on numerous occasions, and would even talk with the Jews to learn where they came from. The group takes a break to eat and discuss languages and French literature.
FILM ID 3677 -- Broad 11
Still eating dinner, Broad discusses how he did not discover he was a Brazilian citizen until 1936-37. At the outbreak of the war at the age of 21, Broad was happily studying in Berlin. While trying to extend his stay in Germany, he was told to leave since the war was starting. As he had no money, he could not consider that option. One architect raised an argument with Broad after reading his postwar statement implicating the Germans in atrocities. Sound very muffled. Broad, Lanzmann, and Corinna speak French, English and German but the conversation is not discernable. Despite being a Brazilian citizen, Broad had to prepare to be sent to the front. His aunt arranged for Broad to sit for an exam to become a translator, after which he received an offer from the SS.
FILM ID 3678 -- Broad 12
Broad began his military training in Finland and then Greece. He describes how he was an unfit soldier and a failure in Nazi eyes. Humorously, he describes his physique to have been like a spider. Deemed unsuitable for service, he was sent to work at Auschwitz, where he claims he had no idea what it was. Lanzmann asks whether Broad believes a man such as SS Officer Christian Wirth, in charge of the nationwide euthanasia program, can be believed when he claimed he had no idea what Sobibor was before he arrived there. Lanzmann seems to imply that he does not believe Broad when he claims he had no idea what Auschwitz was. Broad describes the camp overseer, Wilhelm Boger, as a primitive man who believed in the Nazi agenda and was thus convinced of his innocence for the tortures he committed.
FILM ID 3679 -- Broad 13
Broad doubts that his aunt had anything to do with sending him to work at Auschwitz. Her family was very rich and her father had painted Hitler. He arrived at Auschwitz in April 1942. He describes how over a period of a couple months he learned the true nature of Auschwitz. A German Kapo told him more about the camp. He heard rumors of gassings, but none of the guards dared to discuss it. Broad smelled the stench of burning corpses, but didn't think anything of it since people died all the time from illness and were burned.
FILM ID 3680 -- Broad 14
Lanzmann and Broad argue about the layout of Block 11. Broad witnessed Ruldof Mildner, head of the political department at Auschwitz, interrogate a boy who had stolen margarine.
FILM ID 3681 -- Broad 15
The political department at Block 11 followed protocols. The tried prisoners were interrogated and examined by medical doctors before their executions. Everything was recorded. Before the construction of the four crematoriums, two small farmhouses served as the gassing sites. They discuss the mass graves where the bodies were later dug up by the Kommando 1005 of Vilna, in an effort to destroy evidence of the atrocities committed. Sound of running water. Some French. Nobody speaks for a period of time. They discuss the title of an article (The Tour Guide through Hell) that appeared in "Die Zeit" newspaper about Broad. Broad says that there were things that happened during the Auschwitz trial that could also be termed "grotesque." He says that some members of the Israeli secret service were at the trial but he wasn't sure why or what they meant to accomplish. Lanzmann asks why in his report, Broad does not refer to himself using the word, "Ich/I." Broad says that the numerous investigators may have convinced him to not use the German word "Ich/I" in case he described an event he himself did not witness. Lanzmann comments that often people do not use the word "Ich/I" so they may distance themselves from the reality of what happened.
FILM ID 3684 -- Broad 18
Lanzmann and Broad discuss the maximum speed of Broad's new Opel. They read over the documentation about the fine that Broad received as part of the judgment against him. Lanzmann says in English that he feels like Germany hasn't changed much, that his fine could have been imposed by a Nazi. Broad continues to complain about the judgment against him and seems to be paging through a document because he wants to show Lanzmann something in particular. He continues to complain about his legal problems and Lanzmann says he is tired he must go. Broad attempts to get Lanzmann to stay for one more cigarette. Lanzmann agrees and Broad announces that he thinks this will be the last time he talks about Auschwitz.
FILM ID 3685 -- Broad 19
Broad tells Lanzmann that he was afraid before the interview that he would again become depressed after recounting the events of Auschwitz. Yet, he admits that Lanzmann showed sensitivity while interviewing him. Lanzmann says he came back to interview Broad after three years and he still does not fully understand him. They end the interview for the day.
FILM ID 3686 -- Broad 20
Lanzmann and Broad say their good-byes and Lanzmann departs. Lanzmann and his assistant Corinna Coulmas talk about how the camera was out of action.
FILM ID 3687 -- Broad 21
Cinematographer Dominique Chapuis listens and comments in French while watching part of the interview.
FILM ID 3688 -- Broad 22
Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back.
FILM ID 3689 -- Broad 23
Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back.

A leading member of the International Council of the Red Cross, Jean Pictet was responsible for the preparatory work which led to the conclusion of the four Geneva Conventions in 1949.
FILM ID 3444 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:08 to 01:27:25
Roll 1 Jean Pictet sits in his office in the International Committee of the Red Cross (Comité International de la Croix-Rouge). Pictet began working for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in 1937 when he was twenty-five years old. He started as a legal secretary and worked closely with the President of the ICRC, Max Huber. In 1946, Pictet was appointed Director. Though skeptical of the existence of concentration and extermination camps, the ICRC became certain of their existence in October 1942. Pictet planned and wrote a public appeal, but it was never made public.
Roll 2 01:05:05 Lanzmann asks Pictet how rumors of the camps spread throughout Geneva. Pictet explains that while he believed the camps were very bad, he was not fully convinced of the existence of mass exterminations until 1943. The ICRC first became suspicious when the Germans refused to provide any news of the Jews held in the camps. Pictet states that he and the ICRC feared if they insisted too much concerning the treatment of Jewish prisoners, the Germans would have expelled the ICRC delegates, thus hindering aid to all prisoners.
Roll 3 01:16:21 Lanzmann asks Pictet if the ICRC had a moral duty to help those in the camps. Pictet states that the ICRC had to work within the bounds set by the precedent of limited protesting the ICRC had established. He claims there were two fundamental stances one could take on the activity of the German government: justice or charity. He believes that the ICRC could not have continued to provide aid to the civilian and political prisoners if they had made a public moral judgment. The ICRC protested rarely, and only when their information was based of eyewitness accounts from their delegates.
FILM ID 3445 - Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:10 to 02:34:48
Roll 4 Pictet describes the trouble the ICRC faced regarding lodging a public protest. The ICRC was either not permitted to visit camps, or shown only what the Germans wanted them to see. On June 26, 1944 the ICRC visited Theresienstadt, which had been completely remodeled and "beautified" so as to trick the ICRC into believing the Jews were being treated well. Pictet claims that while the delegate wrote a positive report on the camp, neither he nor the ICRC were taken in by the propaganda. Pictet affirms the importance of the ICRC remaining neutral in favor of providing aid. Pictet and Lanzmann discuss how the logo of the Red Cross was widely used by the Nazis. It was on the trucks which transported Zyklon B to Auschwitz and on the hospital, the "Lazarett," in Treblinka which hid the true purpose of the building: to exterminate prisoners.
Roll 5 02:11:25 Several dozen delegates in Germany risked expulsion if the ICRC antagonized the German government. The Allies knew what was taking place in the camps; in December 1942 they described the extent of the atrocities in a declaration. Aid for the Allied prisoners of war in Germany amounted to over three billion francs. Delegates were able to provide aid to prisoners of war, but were not allowed into camps holding Jews. Aid for Jews was provided mainly by the Joint Distribution Committee and the War Refugee Board. Pictet continues to use the phrase "political detainee/prisoner" to describe Jewish inmates from when the ICRC had to maintain courteous relations with Germany. According to Pictet, it would have been impossible to condemn the Germans while at the same time upholding a diplomatic relationship.
[AUDIO BUT NO IMAGE 02:22:22 TO 02:35:08]
Roll 6 02:23:07 Although the war was won, the Jewish population was annihilated. The ICRC did not have the power to prevent the development of the camps. The ICRC helped where it could, in one instance through The Division of Special Assistance (DAS). Though the German government did not provide the ICRC with addresses to send supplies to, they acquired such information from witnesses and other means. This way, the ICRC was able to send about 1,600,000 parcels of aid. Pictet has several receipts of aid he kept from the war, including one from the Royal Family of Belgium. Lanzmann and Pictet discuss the actions of Count Bernadotte, who negotiated the release of about 31,000 Jews from German camps and Jean-Marie Musy, the former president of the Swiss Confederation who rescued 1,200 Jews. Towards the end of the war the ICRC was able to enter the camps and provide aid to prisoners and even remove some from the camps. When the camps were liberated the ICRC provided medical aid and helped survivors contact family members.
FILM ID 3446 - Camera Roll #7 -- 03:00:09 to 03:10:33
Lanzmann and Pictet examine an acknowledgement of receipt that was sent to the camp of Dachau. Ten additional people who had benefited from the parcel had written their names on the receipt. Consequently, the ICRC was able to provide aid to even more detainees. [AUDIO BUT NO IMAGE 03:07:17 to 03:10:33]. Pictet describes the ICRC's aid as weak compared to the immensity of the suffering, yet enormous compared to what was done by others.
FILM ID 3447 - Camera Rolls #7AM,7A,8 Coupe -- 04:00:06 to 04:09:22
Receipt of aid from King Leopold III, king of the Belgians. 04:00:20 Receipt of aid from Princess de Réthy. 04:00:29 The building of the Comité International de la Croix-Rouge (CICR) in Geneva. 04:01:51 View of the street next to the CICR. 04:03:10 The red cross, symbol of the organization, as a flag on top of the building. 04:08:12 Scene of a boat named Helvétie.

Lore Oppenheimer and Herman Kempinsky (now Ziering), co-presidents of the Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto, share their experiences during the Holocaust. They address the conflicts between German Jews and Ostjuden, deportation to the Polish border in 1938, propaganda, arrival in Riga and witnessing evidence of murdered Latvian Jews, and life in Riga ghetto. Mr. Ziering conceals his face during the interview which takes place at the 1978 Society conference in New York city. Lanzmann also briefly speaks in German with Friedrich Baer, a WWI veteran frontline soldier, who attended the conference.
FILM ID 3804 -- Camera Rolls NY 70,71
NY 70 Mrs. Oppenheimer tells Lanzmann that she was born in Hannover, Germany, and that her father thought he was safe when the Nazis came because he had served in WWI; also, he was German and didn't want to leave Germany. By some coincidence, the father was not sent to a concentration camp during Kristallnacht, but things soon got worse and he had to give up his business. By the time he got an affidavit to emigrate to the US, it was too late. Also, the parents' efforts to get the children out with the Kindertransport failed. By 1941, like other Jews, the family was crammed into a few "Jewish houses", while many other Jews lived in former schools, even in cemeteries. Suicides were common then - about a dozen every night. She cites the restrictions on Jews before the 1941 deportations - wearing the yellow star, carrying an identification card marked with a "J" and the added name "Sarah" or "Israel", depending on gender, and being banned from sidewalks and most stores; schools had been closed and synagogues burned.
NY 71 Lanzmann talks with Mr. Ziering, whom he calls Mr. Kempinsky, about his recollections. Ziering tells of being born in Kassel, Germany in 1926 to parents who came from Poland after WWI. By 1933, students were already segregated and he had to attend a Jewish school. Coming from Poland of German heritage, he occasionally used a Yiddish word and was taunted by German Jewish teachers and fellow students as Ostjuden; "East Jews" were blamed by German Jews for all the problems facing Jews. Mr. Ziering's father did not feel endangered by the Nazis because his father had served in WWI and was a businessman. Mrs. Oppenheimer confirms what her husband said about East Jews. Mr. Ziering tells about being deported in 1938 before Kristallnacht. The parents were stateless, as they had neither Polish nor German citizenship. With one hour to pack, they and 500 other families were sent on a two-day train to the Schneidemühl camp on the Polish border in Zbaszyin.
FILM ID 3805 -- Camera Rolls NY 72-75
NY 72 Mr. Ziering explains how his family's statelessness came about. Their passports had to be sent to the Polish Consulate in Frankfurt for visa extension, but were never returned. Lanzmann calls this escalating discrimination "a kind of preliminary for the extermination". Mr. Ziering tells of the effect of the daily insults and propaganda on him as a child. He began to believe that there really was something wrong with Jews the way they were portrayed in the media and the antisemitic newspaper The Stürmer. When his family could not get into Poland, they were given the option of paying for the return trip to Kassel; they were on the last transport back to Germany before the border was closed. A month later, the men were rounded up again, taken to the border, chased each night by dogs and shot at by police on both sides of the border. The father was able to escape and return to Kassel, then was able to get a visa to England, but could not get the family over before war broke out. His mother, brother and he were considered to be Polish citizens and had to report to the police station every morning. All three had to state their names repeatedly, as for instance, "I am the Jew, Hermann Israel Kempinsky", then were mocked and insulted by the police sergeant.
NY 73 Mr. Ziering repeats his story about the daily ritual at the police station. He had to stand at attention, look at the sergeant and other offices, and say his name in various denigrating ways, such as "I am the Jewish pig Hermann Israel Kempinsky". This went on for two years for his family. The police would remind them of what happened to the Jewish student, Grynspan, an incident the Nazis used as justification for Kristallnacht. Mr. Ziering tells about the SA breaking into and plundering Jewish stores, setting the synagogue on fire and, the next day, rounding up community leaders to clean up the mess. After that, all Jewish stores were marked with a sign "Jew" to keep non-Jews away. Mrs. Oppenheimer has similar memories of Kristallnacht: many men were deported to camps and people's apartments were destroyed, but by luck, her father and their apartment were overlooked. Her father died doing heavy construction work in Hannover in 1941. After being deported to Riga, she and her brother were sent to the concentration camp Stutthof and from there to Dachau, where her brother was killed in 1945. Lanzmann asks both of them about daily life during the Nazi time. Alternately, they describe the restrictions of shopping only at Jewish stores, getting inferior food, having to live in segregated ghetto-type housing, and all males over fourteen having to work. Walking to school, Mr. Ziering was easily recognized by Hitler Youth who would attack and beat him.
NY 75 Mr. Ziering repeats his account of abuse by Hitler Youth members with no intervention from witnesses. Basic food and heating materials were harder to come by, so he and his brother would pick up coal in a cart to bring home or deliver it to old people. Lanzmann returns to the topic of suicides. Mr. Ziering said those were mostly Jews born in Germany, who could not believe what was happening. In an incident in the concentration camp Kaiserwald in Riga, a German Jewish prisoner said with pride, "those are our planes flying overhead," which was incomprehensible to the 14-year old Ziering, given the terrible treatment by the Nazis. Mrs. Oppenheimer repeats her certainty about the dozens of suicides every day in Hannover - proof being the dates on the cemetery gravestones. She goes on to describe the crowded, awful conditions of sharing a room with 15 to 20 people and more in the gymnasium. Since all 1600 Jews were living in 14 houses, it was easy to round them up in December 1941 for the transports to the East. Mr. Ziering was also deported at that time.
FILM ID 3806 -- Camera Rolls NY 76-79
NY 76 Mr. Ziering talks about being in Frankfurt for training to become an auto mechanic and how frustrating he found the restrictions on Jews of no movies, no soccer, no swimming. One time he sneaked into the movie "Jud Süss". He got the German view of Jews inside the movie theater where it became clear that people fully believed the inhuman stereotypes of Jews they saw on the screen. He returned to Kassel to join his mother and brother for the deportation to the East. Lanzmann asks what "the East" meant to him. Mr. Ziering admits it was frightening not to know, but thought they would all work in a factory. He reads the German order to report. Every deportee had to make a complete list of possessions and give up all valuables for which he/she was give a receipt - a highly ironic exchange - theft with a receipt. Lanzmann asks about the complicity of the Jewish Council. Mr. Ziering says it was the Nazi's method of 'divide and conquer', pitting Jews against each other, but giving benefits to a certain few. Mrs. Oppenheimer adds that the Jewish Council members were not deported at that time, though by 1943, they were sent to Theresienstadt.
NY 77 Mrs. Oppenheimer tells of her mother's attempt in 1940 to get she and her brother out on the Kindertransport to relatives in Amsterdam. Though the head of the Jewish Council assured her that the children would be put on the list, when the time came, they could not go; the suspicion is that he substituted his own children. Yet these children later came back to Hannover and were deported to Auschwitz, where, being twins, they were subject to medical experiments. Lanzmann asks for more information about the deportations in December 1941. Mrs. Oppenheimer tells of all the Jews being called to the Horticulture School in Ahlem, held there for three days and giving up all valuables. Some did not have to go, mostly those in mixed marriages. The rest were shipped in regular trains but it was very crowded, the heat was turned off and they had only the food they had brought along. Arriving at the Scirotawa station, SS men yelled at them and marched them off to a Riga ghetto.
NY 78,79 Mr. Ziering says that they arrived on December 12. NY 79 Mr. Ziering describes the arrival in Riga, where a SS man marched them to the ghetto surrounded by barbed wire; they saw blood on the ground and saw bodies outside. Inside the apartments everything had been left in disarray, even with food, sabbath candles and a prayerbook still on the table, a shocking, incomprehensible situation. Lanzmann asks how he found out what had happened. Mr. Ziering describes slipping under the wire with other teens to another ghetto where he spoke Yiddish with Latvian Jews and learned that a few days prior, the Jews in his ghetto had been taken to the forest and killed with machine guns. When he reported this to the German Jews of his transport, they wouldn't believe him. Lanzmann states that the killings had started on November 30, 1941.
FILM ID 3807 -- Camera Rolls NY 80-81
NY 80 Mr. Ziering tells of the some Latvian Jews resenting the German Jews, fearful that these would replace them at their work stations because of their ability to speak German. During weeks of sitting around, he and his friends would sneak out of the ghetto and scavenge for food. Sometimes they found frozen potatoes, which they ate, despite the awful taste. Once, when carrying a sack of potatoes back into the ghetto, a guard caught his group and marched them to the cemetery, known to be the execution place. Just as his group was all lined up, it began to rain and while the SS guards put on their raincoats, Mr. Ziering ducked behind a monument and survived. Eventually, the deportees were given work outside the ghetto as tailors and mechanics, but Mr. Ziering does not understand why the Latvian Jews, who were more skilled at these trades, were killed. He goes on to describe the naiveté of the German Jews who considered themselves safe from harm by virtue of being German and following the rules. But if people became ill or could no longer work, a truck would come and ostensibly take them to a fish factory where work was easier; in reality, they were taken to the Forest Romboli and shot. Their clothes came back and were sent to Germany for charity. Mrs. Oppenheimer talks about food being the key to ghetto residents' survival - whatever they could smuggle out was exchanged for food from the outside population. But anyone caught with smuggled food would be shot.
NY 81 Mrs. Oppenheimer reflects on how much harder it must have been for the parents to be deported - torn away from everything they had - than for young people like her. She was not able to talk to her mother about it later, as her father had died before the deportation and her brother after. Mr. Ziering agrees - he lived for the moment and didn't worry as his mother did. He talks about wanting to get even and doing so by breaking the Germans' furniture when cleaning it, burning hundred dollar bills, and burying the gold he and his friends found. Sabotage gave them the will to fight and resist. Lanzmann asks about the hangings they all had to watch. Mrs. Oppenheimer says that those caught exchanging goods were killed - men were hanged and women shot. Everyone coming back from work had to look at the body hanging from the gallows for three days. If a person didn't look up, the SS would hit them. Mr. Ziering reflects that no matter what a person did, it was the wrong thing; if he escaped, the family or others were killed in retribution. Lanzmann asks why Mr. Ziering does not show his face to the camera.
FILM ID 3808 –- Camera Rolls NY 72A-74 coupes
Silent shots of Mrs. Oppenheimer and Mr. Ziering.

An Orthodox Jew affiliated with Weissmandel's Yeshiva in Mount Kisco in New York, Mr. Becher talks about Rabbi Weissmandel, the "Blood for Goods" and other rescue efforts, and the Orthodox prohibition on violent resistance.
FILM ID 3820 – Camera Rolls NY 82-87 -- Becher
NY 82 Mr. Becher explains that Rabbi Weissmandel was the first person to explore the idea of bribing the Nazis in order to save the Jews. Rabbi Weissmandel began rescuing Jews from Slovakia in 1942. Religious Jews were opposed to the ban on German goods initiated by Rabbi Stephen Wise in 1933. Becher says Jews were religiously opposed to displays of force against Germans and the Jews living in Germany.
10:21 NY 84,85,86 Becher claims that the boycott of Germany and Rabbi Wise's declarations of war in 1938 both contributed to the Holocaust. Zionist Jews in Palestine collaborated with the Nazis through the creation of the Haavara Agreement which permitted German Jews to immigrate to Palestine if they agreed to leave their belongings and money in Germany. Lanzmann asks Becher what he would have done, as an Orthodox Jew, if the Nazis had humiliated him the same way they did to many Orthodox Jews during the war. After Becher does not answer, Lanzmann asks if he thinks the war would have been different if Jews had weapons to resist.
21:35 NY 87,89,90 Becher discusses the differences between the holidays Chanukah and Purim. According to Becher, Jews can only fight back when their faith is in danger, and the Nuremberg laws persecuted Jews personally, rather than the religion of Judaism.
FILM ID 3821 – Camera Rolls NY 88,89,90 -- Coupes
NY 88 Must, LS Lanzmann and Becher talking in the street, CUs. Becher walking along the road.
FILM ID 3822 – Camera Rolls NY 91 -- Coupes
NY 91 Becher thinks that the Diaspora has made it impossible for Judaism to be wiped out. Weissmandel was able to negotiate for the rescue of Slovakian Jews by convincing the Nazis that if they happened to lose the war, allowing some Jews out would help their image. Nazi SS official Dieter Wisliceny agreed for the price of $50,000 USD to divert several of the transports going to Poland.

Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman talk about their involvement in the Jewish combat organization in the Warsaw ghetto and the Warsaw ghetto uprising. The interview with both men takes place at the Ghetto Fighters House in Israel on October 4, 1979. Mr. Rotem was interviewed separately in his apartment in Jerusalem on October 6, 1979.
FILM ID 3745 -- Camera Rolls 1-4
Lanzmann says they are standing outside of the Ghetto Fighters House. Lanzmann has brought a model of the Warsaw Ghetto to reference when describing the uprising. Rotem joined the Jewish Combat Organization in 1942. He worked at a collective farm and was sent by the Jewish Combat Organization into the ghetto to make contact with the Zionist organization there. The director of the farm was named Czerniakow(?), and his farm had been authorized by the Germans to employ young people to make agricultural products for the war. The farm was at the edge of the Warsaw district.
The farm was not guarded, and the director had confidence that the young people working for him would not get him into trouble. Rotem was aware of his privileged position away from the ghetto. He was able to perform illegal resistance activities and received enough to eat. He stayed on the farm for three months until it was shut down at the end of 1942 and its occupants sent to the ghetto. Due to his resistance activities, he was able to visit his parents in the ghetto and witnessed the empty streets and gutted houses. He did not live in the ghetto during the first major deportation.
FILM ID 3746 -- Camera Rolls 5-7
The Germans did not expect the Jews in the ghetto to fight back. Rotem explains that none of the Jews could have imagined that a genocide would occur in the 20th century. On top of this, the Germans tried to mislead the Jews further with the establishment of model camps at Poniatow and Trawniki, which Jewish delegations visited. The Jewish Combat Organization was established on July 28, 1942. They were organized, but lacked arms and were only able to fight from January 1943 until April 19, 1943.
Mordechai Anielewicz, leader of the Jewish Combat Organization, sent Itzhak Zuckerman (referred to as Antek) a letter on April 22, concerning the search for arms for the uprising. Zuckerman has a copy of the letter that he translated at the time from Hebrew into Yiddish. Living on the outside, Zuckerman knew what was happening in the ghetto and understood more so than others the significance of the deportations. He had contacts in the ghetto, as well as with Jewish gravediggers.
Zuckerman left the ghetto six days before the insurrection on April 19, 1943. In the ghetto, Rotem describes how the occupants of the ghetto felt as if something was going to happen. The Germans entered the ghetto on Malevkins street and made their way to the factories. Rotem was outside of the combat zone. Zuckerman comments that Lanzmann has been able to get him to talk about things he does not like thinking about.
FILM ID 3747 -- Camera Rolls 8-9
A storm rages outside where the interview takes place. Inside, Zuckerman continues. The Germans entered the ghetto carrying a white flag and demanded a cease fire. Zuckerman describes this event as beyond unbelievable. The resistance fighters immediately opened fire, causing the Germans to retreat. Upon seeing three hundred SS enter the ghetto, Zuckerman exploded a mine placed at an observation post which injured dozens of Germans. The Germans would set fire to buildings and launch artillery from outside the ghetto. The morale of the resistance fighters was lifted when they saw how they had taken the Germans by surprise, and had killed dozens of them in the first three days of fighting. The Germans were afraid to enter the ghetto at night, and were disturbed by the deserted streets. The Jews in the ghetto hid underground in tunnels, basements and bunkers.
Zuckerman says the two most astonishing facts of the uprising were that people who were trapped had the spirit to fight, and that those in charge were so young. Rotem was 16 or 17, and Zuckerman about 20 at the time. Zuckerman tells Lanzmann how those who perished in the fight deserve to have their lives written about. Rotem adds that it is unfair for two or three people to be given all the honor and to be turned almost into a legend, for an event which was performed by hundreds.
FILM ID 3748 -- Camera Roll 10
After the war, Zuckerman critiqued Zivia for writing the entire account of the resistance fighter's escape in one single chapter of her book. He felt without all the details, the book did not portray the reality of what happened. Lanzmann tells Zuckerman that he is doing similarly by simplifying the events of the Holocaust for the sake of the film. Zuckerman nevertheless thanks Lanzmann for making the film while he is still able to recount his story.
FILM ID 3749 -- Camera Rolls 11-13
[Rotem is interviewed alone is his apartment and thus speaks for the remainder of the interview.] Human language is incapable of describing the horror of what was witnessed in the ghetto. The Jews in the ghetto were cut off from the world and isolated to the point where it was possible to lose the drive to keep fighting. Previous attempts to leave the ghetto had ended in death but Rotem and a friend, Sigmund, still decided to try. On April 29, Rotem escaped the ghetto through a tunnel and hid in a house. They met a Christian Pole who they managed to convince that they were also Christian Poles accidentally placed inside the ghetto.
The Polish man showed Rotem and Sigmund an escape route via a courtyard which had several days previously been the site of the Irgun fighter's massacre. The Irgun fighters resisted German control independently from the Jewish Combat Organization inside the ghetto. They were able to meet the contact on the Christian side of Warsaw, who advised that a rescue operation of Jewish fighters in the ghetto take place. They concluded the best way to achieve this would be through the sewers. Rotem met with Zuckerman and convinced him to wait until he learned the sewer system before re-entering the ghetto.
The men sought out sewer workers to assist them in maneuvering through the tunnels. This took about one week, after which they re-entered the ghetto on May 8 or 9. They could hear fighting and the sound of gunfire from outside the ghetto. Rotem describes returning to the ghetto as the most natural thing to do. He had left in order to seek help for his comrades, not to save himself. From his position outside the ghetto he saw the fires burning and snipers on the roofs. Meanwhile, the city of Warsaw continued functioning as normal. Even in uprising, the ghetto continued to exist as an isolated island. They re-entered the ghetto with the help of the "King of the Blackmailers," a Polish man who lived near the ghetto wall who trapped Jews trying to escape. Rotem and his comrades pretended to be members of the Polish Resistance whose comrades where stuck inside the ghetto. Along with a substantial bribe, the "King of the Blackmailers" helped the men re-enter the ghetto.
FILM ID 3750 -- Camera Rolls 14-16
Rotem, his comrade Richek (also spelled Rijek) and two sewer workers entered the ghetto through the sewer system. At times the sewer workers tried to turn around, and Rotem and Richek had to threaten them with their weapons. After about two hours in the sewers, Rotem arrived at the Franciskhanska quarter. Despite giving the password to enter the bunker where the Jewish Combat Organization was supposed to be, he received no reply.
The bunker the Jewish Combat Organization had been using was 22 Franciszkanska. Rotem had received no information about the ghetto in the eight days he was outside of it. Consequently, he did not know for certain where he could locate the other combat fighters when he returned to the ghetto.
Rotem first went to the bunker where Zivia and Mordechai Anielewicz had been eight days previously, in search of survivors. Not finding anyone there, he went to the other bunkers in the ghetto where he thought he may find survivors. Walking amongst the ruins, Rotem heard a women call for help. She had broken her leg and couldn't free herself. Unfortunately, in the dark Rotem could not find her. As he continued through the ghetto, he smelled smoke and the burnt flesh of those murdered. He repeated the password, "Jan" at each bunker he visited, but did not find anyone. He describes how he felt he was the last living Jew. He returned to the sewers and they retraced their steps.
FILM ID 3751 -- Camera Rolls 19-21
The bunkers were deep subterranean caves. They were extremely hot and often one had to lay face down to breathe.
On their way back through the sewers the four men heard a noise and feared they had were about to be attacked by Germans, who knew about the sewers. However, it turned out to be ten resistance fighters, all of whom Rotem says he knew personally.
Most of the bunkers in the ghetto had been prepared for the non-fighting citizens. As the headquarters of the insurrection, the bunker at Mila 18 had been given to the resistance fighters by gangster Samuel Ascher. The gangsters dealt with contraband commerce between the ghetto and larger Warsaw.
FILM ID 3752 -- Camera Rolls 22-24
Rotem remarks how fortunate their meeting with the ten other resistance fighters was, and that by a miracle they did not open fire on each other. They told Rotem that he was late returning to the ghetto by one day. Many of the fighters had committed suicide the previous day, before they could be captured by the Germans. Rotem, Richek and the two sewer guides left the sewer while the ten fighters went in search of surviving fighters in the ghetto. They agreed to rendezvous at a well-known manhole cover outside of the ghetto.
Meeting at their rendezvous point, the fighters who searched the ghetto told Rotem that there were survivors in the ghetto who wanted to escape. They could not hold out in the sewers for another day. However, Rotem was not prepared to help a large group of Jews escape from the ghetto so soon. The following morning, he had acquired a truck driven by the Polish communist Army man, Tchacktckek. Despite the tremendous danger, they began to bring the Jews out of the sewer and load them into the truck. Rotem recalls how a crowd of Polish spectators gathered. With about 40 people in the truck, they left the area. Zivia told Rotem there were still people in the sewers.
The Jews escaping the sewers were so weak they had to be pulled out and lifted in to the truck. Zivia demanded they return to rescue the remaining people in the sewers, but Rotem felt it would be too dangerous, and figured the second truck would rescue them. The fighters hid in the forest outside of the city, and Rotem returned to Warsaw to see if the remaining fighters had managed to escape. He found his comrade, Rickek, dead in the street. As the remaining Jews escaped through the manhole, Germans had arrived and killed them. Of those who escaped to the forest, Rotem believes about four men are still alive at the time of the interview. Many of them had joined the partisans after escaping the ghetto, and were killed in combat.
FILM ID 3766 -- Coupes (Roll 40 - white) -- 09:00:09 to 09:13:19
Mute shots of Rotem in the Ghetto Fighters House. 09:00:20 "Bob. 176" coupe of Lanzmann sitting on a couch, listening and interviewing to Rotem, smoking, close-ups. 09:05:42 Model of the Warsaw ghetto in the museum. 09:08:07 Historic photographs of ghetto inhabitants.
*** The following are audio reels ****
Film ID 3498 -- Rottem 132, take 1,2 -- 00:00:30 to 00:16:00
Film ID 3499 -- Rotem 133, take 3,4 -- 00:00:42 to 00:11:36
Film ID 3500 -- Rotem 134, take 5 -- 00:00:27 to 00:11:12
Film ID 3501 -- Rotem 135, take 6 -- 00:00:43 to 00:11:42
Film ID 3502 -- Rotem 136, take 7 -- 00:01:10 to 01:12:08
Film ID 3503 -- Rotem 137, take 8 -- 00:01:30 to 00:11:37
Film ID 3504 -- Rotem 138, take 9 -- 00:00:52 to 00:11:42
Film ID 3505 -- Rotem 139, take 10 -- 00:00:56 to 00:12:33
Film ID 3506 -- Rotem 140, take 11 -- 00:00:31 to 00:12:46
Film ID 3507 -- Rotem 141, take 12 -- 00:00:44 to 00:11:42
Film ID 3508 -- Rotem 142, take 13 -- 00:01:21 to 00:12:05
Film ID 3509 -- Rotem 143, take 14 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:15
Film ID 3510 -- Rotem 144, take 16,17 -- 00:01:06 to 00:11:55
Film ID 3511 -- Rotem 145, take 18 -- 00:01:12 to 00:11:55
Film ID 3512 -- Rotem 146, take 19 -- 00:00:22 to 00:11:04
Film ID 3513 -- Rotem 147, take 20 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:16
Film ID 3514 -- Rotem 148, take 21 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:20
Film ID 3515 -- Rotem 149, take 22 -- 00:00:26 to 00:11:14
Film ID 3516 -- Rotem 150, take 22 sixte -- 00:00:32 to 00:11:15
Film ID 3517 -- Rotem 151, take 23 -- 00:00:41 to 00:13:19

Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli scholar, talks about how he first became involved in the study of the Holocaust and how he tries to strike a balance between emotional involvement and objectivity. He talks about the Jewish Council and Israeli attitudes to them after the war. Lanzmann and Bauer debate Kasztner's actions and motivations and the Nazi fantasy of the powerful "world Jewry". The interview was recorded outdoors in the early evening at a kibbutz in Israel (probably Bauer’s home).
FILM ID 3793 -- Camera Rolls 1-3 -- Interview Judenrat
CR1 Bauer says he came from Prague in 1939 at the age of twelve. His father was a Zionist and got the family out on the day the Germans came in. Lanzmann asks how he started working on the Holocaust in Israel and Bauer explains that it was impossible for him as a historian not to deal with it and that he was scared to do so.
CR2 Lanzmann asks Bauer if there is a change of attitude among Israelis toward the Judenrat. Bauer says yes, and that research has shifted toward an understanding of the conditions under which Judenrat were working, and the impossibility of generalizing about the policy of all of the Judenrat. Bauer describes an extreme case in the Lodz ghetto where Rumkowski wanted to save the Jews by making them slaves of the Germans, calculating that no slave master would murder his slaves. He did this with support of the rabbis and Jewish elites. Lanzmann calls this a policy of "rescue through work". It did keep 60,000 Lodz Jews alive until 1944, longer than in other ghettos. Had the Soviet Army moved into Lodz in July 1944 instead of January 1945, Rumkowski might have been remembered as a hero or savior, but Bauer calls him a murderer.
CR3 Lanzmann talks of the ghetto situation being different from that of occupied countries like France where there was a permanent struggle between the bourgeoisie and the workers. Bauer points out that there is a big difference between cooperation and collaboration, the latter being an ideological union with the occupiers which helped the Nazis win the war. Some Judenrat tried to save the Jews through slave labor, but the approach did not work because the Nazis hated the Jews based on ideology, rather than economics, so the end was murder. It is important to look at the moral action or intention. Barasch in Bialystok was an honest man who tried to save as many people as possible by working with the underground, while Rumkowski fought against the underground and destroyed it. In Kovno, the Jewish elder Elkis tried to help the underground with the support of the Jewish police. In Minsk, the leader Myschkin helped to organize the resistance. Bauer says that attempts to present the Judenrat as stereotypes are fallacious. Lanzmann presses Bauer to define the difference in the leaders' position. Bauer says it was more than the leaders; it was also the environment and whether there was a military or civilian government in place.
FILM ID 3794 -- Camera Rolls 4-6 -- Interview Judenrat
CR4 Bauer draws a distinction between when the Judenrat operated. Studies show that a large number of Judenrat had the support of the population at first. Later, their sphere of action was limited, and they felt forced to hand over their own people as slave laborers. Bauer tells a case in Kosov, Ukraine, where when alerted that the Germans were coming to kill the Jews, three of the Judenrat delayed the Germans with talk while the Jews ran off to hide. Bauer explains that there was a policy among some Judenrat heads to sacrifice a minority in the hope of saving the majority, which is what Genz did in Vilna having the Jewish police handing over the old people to be killed by the Germans.
CR5 Lanzmann and Bauer discuss the decision of the Communist Party, the Judenrat, and the ghetto population to turn in Itzi Gritenberg, the head of the resistance movement, to the Germans. Gritenberg supported Jakob Genz in sending Jewish elders away. The underground found itself in a similar position as the Judenrat, with the responsibility for choosing the life or death of others. Bauer illustrates a case of two Jews near Vilna who escaped to the forest; when they did not return, the Nazis killed 150 Jewish villagers. The resistance felt that the Germans put them in a no-win situation.
CR6 Bauer explains that the resistance movement was different from the Judenrat in that the former realized that armed resistance was the only reaction to the Nazis, and that it was hopeless - everybody would be killed. In contrast, he reads a speech by Jakob Genz, head of the Vilna ghetto, who sacrificed elders rounded up by the ghetto police, with Genz saying that he has blood on his hands, whereas the intelligensia would live with a clear conscience. Bauer cites examples of alternate ways of dealing with the Germans. In Slovakia, the Judenrat decided to save the whole community, so were able to negotiate with and pay money to the Slovak government, and establish work camps for youths. Lanzmann points out that conditions were different in Slovakia because there were no ghettos. Bauer counters with examples of ghettos in Minsk, Wolinia and Belorussia where the Judenrat helped get youths into the forest and fight the Germans. Many of the youth were Zionists who had disengaged from the Jewish community before the war.
FILM ID 3795 -- Camera Rolls 7,8 -- Interview Divers
CR7 Bauer says again that the youth movements, Zionist and Communist, both had as their mission the establishment of a new society. But being stuck in the ghetto, they had to share the Jewish way of life, which they had rejected. In Vilna, Bialystok and Cracow, they decided that the ghetto was lost anyway, so where they could, they escaped into the forest and became partisans. In Belorussia, about 25,000 Jews escaped, many of them becoming fighters, even forming family camps. Acquiring guns was a major challenge, since it was difficult to be accepted into partisan units without arms. But in the Warsaw ghetto, there was no way to have an effective armed resistance during the big deportations in 1942.
CR8 Bauer surmises that the reason for the failure of the resistance groups to organize an uprising in Warsaw in 1942 is that they were still unprepared. It went against their history and tradition to rebel. But when the remaining 55,000 Jews in the ghetto realized that the others had been killed, the population organized themselves, neutralizing the Judenrat and the Jewish police. Bauer explains that the Western world had heard about the pogroms, murder and ghettos in Eastern Europe, as reported in the New York and the Palestinian Hebrew newspapers, but no one had put the events together as a plan because the events were so unprecedented as to be unthinkable. The shock of realization came when a group of Palestinians who had been living in Europe came to Palestine in the fall of 1942 and told the whole story.
FILM ID 3796 -- Camera Rolls 9,10 -- Zionism
CR9 Bauer goes into detail about the disbelief of the Western world about the news of the systematic killing of the Jews in Europe. He cites the public denial of Itzak Greenbaum despite having accurate information from a correspondent in Switzerland. Lanzmann presses Bauer and he says that Greenbaum knew there was little the Jewish population of Palestine could do, so he took the attitude of "rescue through victory." It was only when 69 Palestinians came from Poland, Germany, Belgium, and France in 1942 having witnessed the atrocities, that the world realized the "rumors" they had discounted were true. Greenbaum sent out a call to fight in 1943 saying that the European Jews had gone "like sheep to slaughter" and that "we must be different".
CR10 Bauer speculates about what the Jews in Palestine could have done. He says the dilemma for the Zionists in Palestine was to create a mass Jewish State. All would be lost if there was no Jewish State after the war and no country would absorb what Jews were left. The Jews were completely powerless in 1942 and 1943 - they had no ships or aircraft to get to Europe. Leaders sought help from the British and begged that a few hundred parachutists be sent into Europe. In the end, 31 parachutists were sent. Bauer continues about the contradiction of resources, whether to raise money for building an independent state or for rescuing European Jews. There was pressure from the kibbutz movement, youth movements and working class movement for more direct action, such as sending a delegation to Istanbul. Ben Gurion and Sharett tried to influence the British and American governments to negotiate with the Nazis to save the Jews of Europe or at least to delay their murder. Lanzmann mentions that the slow pace of the pressure to negotiate is in direct contrast with the speed of the deportations of the Hungarian Jews in 1944.
FILM ID 3797 -- Camera Rolls 11,12,14 -- Interview Divers
CR11 Bauer agrees with Lanzmann about the incongruity of events: The Nazis destroy the Jews at a fantastic speed, yet the reaction of the world was contradictory and slow. He surmises that the Western powers were focused on winning the war by military means in an effort to destroy the Nazis. Saving people was not a military aim. Even in 1944, when American bombers could have reached Eastern Poland, bombing Auschwitz was not a priority. Bauer addresses the accusations against Kasztner, the leader of the Zionist rescue committee in Budapest. Kasztner is alleged to have negotiated with the Nazis. Bauer does not believe the Jews of Klusz knew of the Germans' plan of annihilating European Jews from the 2,500 Polish Jews who escaped into Hungary between 1942 and 1944. Those who escaped told their Hungarian hosts about Belzec, Treblinka, and Majdanek. The Judenrat in Budapest sent messengers to ghettos to warn Jews that they would be deported and killed in Poland. Several of the twelve messengers survived and reported after the war that they were kicked out by the ghetto community - people simply did not want to know. Lanzmann questions how they were warned.
CR12 Bauer and Lanzmann argue about whether the Jews of Klusz were sufficiently warned about the deportations - Bauer suggesting they were warned by their own leaders but didn't want to believe the information, Lanzmann saying that people were not told directly enough to run for their lives. Bauer says that Kasztner, a noted journalist, was setting a precedent by negotiating with the Germans for a ransom - first, not to put the Jews in a ghetto and later, to save as many Jews he could. Kasztner had to decide which approach was more effective. He chose to negotiate because the Germans put the stages of concentration, isolation, Aryanization and deportation into action very rapidly with the cooperation of the Hungarian population and government; there was no time or place for escape. The discussion turns to the famous train he negotiated. It consisted of Klusz Jews, including Kasztner's family, friends and some rich people who could pay for others. Bauer argues that Kasztner put his family there to show that the train would go to a safe place rather than to Auschwitz. Lanzmann sees Kasztner's achievements in two ways: he saved 1,600 Jews, yet behaved like a classic Judenrat member in saving only a handful of people. Bauer sees Kasztner in a positive light, given that everything was stacked against saving even a few people - the Jews were in labor battalions, rebellion was impossible, there were no weapons nor support from the Hungarian population and the SS was in charge. Kasztner was a clever negotiator, convincing Eichmann, Becher and Himmler that he was someone to be reckoned with.
CR14 Bauer explains that the German generals knew that Germany couldn't win the war in 1942. The Nazis saw the Jews as a world power and thus a bargaining chip with the Allies. The Brandt mission in 1944, meant to exchange trucks for Jews, was doomed to failure because of this dichotomy. Bandi Gross, a crook, was the only person with direct contact with the British and American in Istanbul to negotiate a separate peace. Lanzmann wonders why Eichmann continued the killings if negotiations were going on. Bauer explains the two parallel lines of Nazi policy - the use of the Jews as a bargaining tool (without Hitler's knowledge) and their complete destruction. To the Nazis, the Jews were not human beings, so they could be either sold or killed, whichever was more convenient. Lanzmann adds, "Kill or sell was the same thing."
FILM ID 3798 -- Camera Roll 15 -- Interview Divers
CR15 Lanzmann says the only way the Nazis could reach the Allies for negotiations was through the Jews because of their imputed world power. Bauer agrees that the Nazis were fighting a war against world Jewry. He states that negotiation plans to "sell Jews" began in 1939 with Schacht-Rubli whereby 100,000 young Jews would emigrate under support from Jews outside Germany. Bauer revisits the "ransom deal" in Slovakia with Wisliceny in 1942. Deportations stopped for a while, which Wisliceny attributes to the Catholic Church's intervention. Bauer disagrees, contending there is no proof of the connection. He says that Weissmandel and Fleischmann believed their plan stopped the deportations, so they proposed the Europaplan, again to exchange Jews for money. Bauer suggests that this plan wasn't about getting money for Jews, but about opening the door to negotiations with the Allies. Lanzmann asks for more details about the war against the Soviet Union being a war against the Jews. Bauer says the evidence is to be found in Hitler's second book in 1928 and his preparations for the attack in 1940 about fighting the Judeo-Bolshevist power. Hitler's quest was a conquest of the world by a healthy, cultured Germanic race and the destruction of the Satanic power of the Jews, which, he believed, controlled the world of his enemies.
FILM ID 3799 -- Camera Roll 13 -- Coupes
CR13 Bauer is speaking but the sound is missing and the roll has not been located in the archive. It is dark and Bauer puts on a sweater. There is no written transcript for this roll so it is likely that the audio malfunctioned during the interview.

Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin are survivors of Vilna. They tell the story of their extraordinary escape from the Ponari camp, digging a tunnel for months, where the dogs that caught them backed away whimpering because the men smelled of death. The interview took place over two days in the forest of Ben Shemen (an Israeli forest resembling Ponari) and in Mr. Zaidel's apartment in Peta'h Tikva with the family of Zaidel.
FILM ID 3782 -- Camera Rolls 2-4 -- Foret Ponari
CR2 Lanzmann, Zaidel and Dugin meet in a forest in Israel which resembles the forest of Ponari, next to Vilna. Before the war the forest was a beautiful place to go on holiday. After the Holocaust, Zaidel says it no longer seems beautiful, he associates it with the martyrs of the region. There were eight mass graves in the forest. One held 24,000 bodies. Zaidel and Dugin were forced to count the bodies every day, for German records.
CR3 Mr. Zaidel was born in a village called Zvilzianik, 24km from Vilna. He was not in the Vilna ghetto from the beginning. Mr. Dugin was in the ghetto from the beginning because he was born and raised in Vilna. Zaidel was born in 1925 and Dugin in 1916. Dugin remembers the poor treatment of the Jews before the ghetto was created. Germans led a pogrom there. When the Germans made the ghetto they created a system of certificates; whoever had a yellow certificate was sent to a second ghetto. Those without certificates were left in the first ghetto and eventually taken to the Ponari forest and executed. During the three days this lasted, Dugin hid with his family in a room as he did not have a certificate. Dugin describes the great fear all who lived in the ghetto experienced since they knew that every month they could be taken to be executed. There were 80,000 Jews in Vilna before the German occupation. After the first ghetto was liquidated, between 15,000 and 17,000 Jews were still alive. These Jews were put to work.
CR4 Citizens of the Vilna ghetto knew that Jews were being killed in the Ponari forest. Peasants would hear gunshots, and survivors of executions in the forest would come back to the ghetto in the cover of darkness and talk about what had happened. Zaidel says while he harbored no illusions to what was going on, he always knew he would survive. Dugin had no such certitude at the time. Dugin was made to work in a group responsible for constructing roads and railroad tracks in a camp called Idnalina. When he was sent to work in Palimonacz in October, he realized that he would starve or freeze to death. He escaped and returned to the Vilna ghetto in 1942. He tried to get his parents and sisters to join him in Vilna, for the time thinking it was safe. But before they could make the trip to Vilna the definitive liquidation of the ghetto began. Dugin managed to escape, but lost all contact with his family. A resistance group was forming in the ghetto at the same time.
FILM ID 3783 -- Camera Rolls 5-7-- Foret Ponari
CR5 Dugin and Zaidel were not members of the resistance. They did not know each other before they were sent to work in the Ponari forest. While the ghetto was being liquidated a group of about fifty Jews from Vilna hid in a cave, called a malina, for about fifty days. Other malinas existed, Dugin also hid in one. The Germans kept two groups of Jews for labor: the Hakape which consisted of mechanics and metal workers, and the Kaïlich which consisted of tailors and other tradesmen. The Jews who could defend themselves left the ghetto early on and joined the Partisans. The Germans could not find the malinas. They only discovered them when people left to find food. These people were captured and tortured for information. The malina Dugin hid in held fifty people, of all ages, with difficulty.
CR6 The Lithuanians were complicit in bringing Jews to the Vilna ghetto. Dugin did everything he could to avoid falling into the hands of either the Germans or the Lithuanians. He explains that for someone like him it was easier to escape, hide and survive. The will to survive existed in all victims, but it was more difficult to survive if someone had a family to take care of. Dugin lost contact with his parents when he fled the ghetto. When five people left the malina Dugin was hiding in, the Gestapo found them, tortured them, and then captured everyone hiding in the malina. Back in Gestapo headquarters in Vilna the able men were separated from the women, children and elderly who were taken away in trucks. Dugin says the men knew the women, children, and elderly were killed. Dugin thought he was going to be killed one morning when he was taken to the Ponari forest in the same trucks, but instead he was taken to work there cutting down trees. An initial group of forty workers was tasked with constructing two bunkers in the forest, one for the prisoners and one for the S.S. guards. When construction was completed, forty more workers were brought to help dispose of the ninety thousand dead bodies lying in mass graves in the forest.
FILM ID 3784 -- Camera Rolls 7A,7,8 -- Foret Ponari
CR7 Brief shots of Dugin without sound. The Obersturmführer told the prisoners working in the Ponari forest that their job was to erase the mess the Lithuanians had made. Lanzmann comments on how pitiful it was how the Germans were blaming others for the massacres they were responsible for. The Obersturmführer claimed that if they worked well, they would be permitted to go to Berlin and practice in their professions. Zaidel knew this to be a bluff, as it would be in the Nazis' interest to kill all who knew what was taking place. He and the other prisoners wondered what they could do to stay alive. In the meanwhile, the Obersturmführer made it clear no one would escape. He had them shackled, and threatened to hang the first attempted escapee from a nearby tree. There were 50-60 S.S. Nazis guarding the prisoners at the forest site, and 84 Jews. Eighty were men and 4 were women who worked in the kitchen. There were no children. Dugin came up with the idea to build a tunnel underneath the bunker.
CR8 Zaidel describes the bunkers the prisoners and S.S. guards lived in. They were originally Russian-dug gas reservoirs. Out of seven, two had been lined with stones. The prisoners lived in one, and the Nazis in the other. The remaining pits contained the corpses of the Jews of Vilna who had been liquidated. When they finished building the bunkers, the Obersturmführer told the prisoners they would be disposing of the murdered bodies. Zaidel claims none of them had imagined that they would perform this work. The prisoners were shackled above their calves day and night, making it impossible to walk properly. There was a division of labor: some would open the mass graves, build pyres, transport bodies, remove gold teeth from the victims or pulverize the victims' bones. The ashes were mixed between layers of sand and dirt. 64,000 bodies were burned.
FILM ID 3785-- Camera Rolls 9-11 -- Foret Ponari
CR9 Each morning the groups of prisoners were given a different task. One group was responsible for building the pyres, an extensive process Dugin describes. The pyres were up to seven meters tall. The last few meters were made up of thousands of bodies, which Zaidel and Dugin would pour flammable fluids on, and then more kindling. The pyres would burn for seven or eight days. Dugin compares opening the graves to opening a tin of sardines: the bodies of the victims were tightly packed. The bodies underneath could have been there for up to eight months, and were often flattened by the pressure imposed on them by more recent bodies deposited on them. Chlorine was poured on each layer of bodies.
09:30 CR10 The bodies on top of the grave were recognizable. Some of the bodies were clothed, and one could tell from their uniform what sort of work they had performed. Dugin explains how they were forbidden from saying aloud the words "dead" and "victim." Instead, they had to refer to the murdered victims as "figurin", as figurines or rags. The prisoners made to carry the bodies were called "Figurenträger." Another workers, called the "Figurenziehen" opened the graves with the use of a large metal bar with a hook on the end.
14:26 CR11 The Germans ordered the workers to never use the words "dead" or "victim." If they did use them, the prisoners were beaten. The Germans did not give an explanation for this order. When they were first made to open the graves, the Germans had the prisoners work without the use of tools. The prisoners sobbed when they first saw the horror before them, and were thus beaten harshly by the guards and worked hard for two days without tools. The dead bodies were referred by Germans as, "Schaizdreck," meaning garbage, in an attempt to distance themselves from the reality of what they were doing: committing mass murder and hiding the evidence. Zaidel says that even after they had been rescued, no one could stand being near the prisoners for the smell of the dead and smoke clung to them. Zaidel tells of the time the Germans brought dogs with them to the forest. Zaidel smelled so strongly of death that one of the dogs ran away from him after it smelled his hand.
FILM ID 3786 -- Camera Rolls 12-14 -- Foret Ponari
CR12 When Zaidel and Dugin managed to escape the Ponari forest, their horrible stench saved them. They had stopped in exhaustion to rest under a tree when some Germans began to search near where they were. Even though one of the dogs smelled Zaidel, it did not give the two men away as they smelled just like all the dead victims in the area. After some time, the other prisoners became used to the smell of the corpses. They were made to take the boots off of the dead, clean them, and then wear them. Zaidel performed this work for four months, from January to April 1944. He claims that about 20 percent of the prisoners had the ability to overcome their situation, while the other 80 percent did not. At one point they opened up a smaller grave, and Dugin recognized his entire family, including his mother, three sisters and their children. He recognized them by their clothing, and even by their faces, as they were still somewhat preserved in the winter months. Another prisoner, Shalom Gol, recognized his wife and children.
13:08 CR13 Four generations of the Zaidel family sit together with Dugin in Zaidel’s apartment in Israel. Zaidel's wife, children, daughter-in-law, grand-daughter and mother-in-law are present. They introduce themselves. Dugin picks up the interview where it left off; in the forest where Dugin found his family in a mass grave. They had been hiding together in a malina when they were discovered.
21:23 CR14 The Nazis had the prisoners open the oldest graves first. Dugin discovered his family in the most recent grave, near the end of his time working in the Ponari forest. Discovering his family was a very difficult experience, he was not so numbed by what he had thus far experienced to not feel the horror of the discovery. The prisoners began forming their plan of escape one month into their time in the forest, after they realized they would not survive. They salvaged tools from the dead they burned, and also had the tools they used in their own trades. Zaidel worked as an electrician, lighting up the graves at night, and thus had screw drivers and pliers at his disposal.
FILM ID 3787 -- Camera Rolls 15-18A -- Famille Ponari
CR15 Seventy-nine men and 4 women were prisoners working in the Ponari forest. The youngest was a boy fifteen years old, and another was seventeen. A committee of about four people brainstormed the many escape plans. Zaidel’s daughter, Hanna, whispers into her father’s ear and Claude stops the filming to record what Hanna says. The interview goes on with Zaidel explaining that all of the prisoners were in agreement that they should escape via a tunnel under the bunker.
CR16 Hanna Zaidel expresses that she would like them to explain why they chose to escape by digging a tunnel. They all understood that they had nothing to lose. It was very difficult work, digging with limited tools after a hard day of work. The foreman, Abraham Ambourg, was responsible for keeping check of the prisoners' actions and gestures and reporting then to the guards. He knew what the prisoners were up to. He too was a Jewish prisoner.
11:21 CR17 As they dug the tunnel, the prisoners had to reinforce the sandy walls with wooden beams they smuggled in. The biggest challenge was hiding the sand from the tunnel between walls and in the roof without being discovered. The tunnel ended up being 35-40 meters long, but about four meters in there was no air to light a candle. Zaidel built an electrical system to light up the tunnel. Digging the tunnel was a process: four men would enter the tunnel digging with their hands or tools salvaged from victims, until their hands bled. One of the prisoners, named Youri, was an engineer. He managed to steal a compass, which the prisoners used to dig the tunnel in the correct direction. Hanna makes a comment and Claude asks his interpreter for a translation. They did dig in the wrong direction once, and feared they would open out into one of the graves or the guard's bunker.
CR18 Zaidel says that the prisoners would dig the tunnel in groups of four to six at a time. After an hour it would become too difficult to breathe, so another group would take over. Once, they were nearly discovered. The guards ordered a roll call while a group of prisoners were digging in the tunnel. However, the prisoners had made a signal using the electrical system Dugin had installed, and thus the prisoners in the tunnel were warned. Everyone was present for the roll call, a fact Zaidel claims he is still stunned by. 27:43 Clap for CR18 Zaidel explains how they believed they dug the wrong way. It took three months to dig the tunnel. Dugin was the first to break into open air.
FILM ID 3788 -- Camera Rolls 19-21 -- Famille Ponari
CR19 About half of the prisoners did not know about the escape plan until a few days before it happened. The prisoners who did know took care to work while the other prisoners were passed out from exhaustion. They knew they were reaching the end of their tunneling when the soil changed from sand into blacker dirt, interspersed with tree roots. With one last meter to dig there was discussion about the order they should leave. Dugin was assigned to go first as he knew the road outside and had the pliers needed to cut the fence. He wanted to leave last so that he could throw a rock into the mine field, killing all the guards, bunker and destroying the site, but as he knew the geography of the area he was assigned to go in the first group.
11:13 CR20 Only now in the interview does Itzhak Dugin tell Lanzmann that he was a prisoner along with his father and two brothers-in-law. Although his father was 55 at the time, he was very strong and thus selected to work in the Ponari forest. Both father and son had separate opportunities to escape, yet chose not to in order to stay together. The prisoners in charge of building the tunnel decided in what order everyone would exit. Each group was made up of about ten people, with one as the group leader. Those who were on the committee were first group to leave through the tunnel. The second group was comprised of the young men who intended to enlist with the partisans. Those who had worked the most on the tunnel were assigned an earlier exit group.
22:40 CR21 When everyone was informed of the escape plan they all felt joy, though they were always silent. Everyone was in agreement about escaping. Dugin cut his chains off with his pliers, and the chains of twenty men. After this, each person was responsible for cutting the chains of the person behind them. Zaidel and Lanzmann have a disagreement about the presence of a rabbi. From a previous interview with Shalom Gol, Lanzmann heard a story of a rabbi named Goschaus or Goschkaus, who performed a small religious service and elected to stay behind as he felt too old to escape. Zaidel does not remember this incident at all but claims he would if it had happened.
FILM ID 3789 -- Camera Rolls Zaidel 22-24 -- Famille Ponari
CR22 Once Dugin had opened the end of the tunnel, they cut the electricity. When he stuck his head out of the tunnel Dugin saw a group of German soldiers looking in the direction of their tunnel exit. Dugin claims the exit of the tunnel was so precise it was only half a meter away from where they had planned it to be. With so many people leaving from the tunnel, the prisoners were discovered and fired upon with machine guns. Dugin and his group began to crawl into the forest, but only about one hundred meters in Dugin heard soldiers and had to change his direction. He fell into an unopened grave and told his group to continue without him, but they ran into some guards and another alarm was sounded. The dry branches they walked on gave them away.
11:14 CR23 Only about fifteen Jewish prisoners managed to escape the Ponari forest, and some were wounded by gunfire and mines. Zaidel thinks not everyone made it through the tunnel. Dugin's father and brothers-in-law did not survive, only those in the first two groups managed to run away. Zaidel's daughter, Hanna, tells Lanzmann how her father did not speak about his experiences while she was growing up. She had to wrest the details from him over the years.
20:04 CR24 Hanna claims to love her father just as any other daughter would a father, his experiences haven't changed that. She claims that the attitude people have in Israel towards Holocaust survivors isn't a good one, but doesn't elaborate what that attitude is. She describes how Holocaust survivors are often tired of life, and find it very difficult to live a normal life.
FILM ID 3790 -- Coupes Foret Ponari
Silent shots of the forest, some scenes with Dugin and Zaidel in the distance then walking towards the camera. A man walks across the field with a briefcase.
FILM ID 3791 -- Coupes Foret Ponari -- Camera Rolls unidentified, 5D,3A,7B,8B,10A,8C,7C,8A
Silent shots of the field. CUs of Dugin with sunglasses. Dugin and Zaidel seated beside one another, various CUs. 6:47 CUs of Lanzmann in the forest sitting on a tree stump.
FILM ID 3792 -- Coupes Famille Ponari – Camera Rolls 22A,23B,24A,24D,24B,22B,23A,24C
VAR silent shots of the Zaidel family in the apartment.

Lanzmann interviewed Franz Suchomel, who was with the SS at Treblinka, in secret in April 1976. This was the first interview Lanzmann filmed with the newly developed hidden camera known as the Paluche, and he paid Suchomel 500 DM. In the outtakes, Suchomel provides further details about the treatment of Jews at the camp, as well as a more ambivalent memory of his experiences than is apparent in the released "SHOAH".
FILM ID 3753 -- Camera Rolls 1-2
Lanzmann asks Suchomel to describe his arrival at Treblinka and Suchomel tells of his shock at finding himself with seven other Germans from Berlin in a concentration camp, whereas in Berlin, he had been told he would be going to a resettlement area, supervising tailors and shoemakers. It was the height of the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto, and during a tour of the camp, he saw the doors of the gas chamber being opened and people falling out "like potatoes." Suchomel and his group were crying "like old women," and Suchomel asked Eberl, the Commandant, to be sent back to Berlin, but Eberl told him he would be sent to the front with the Waffen SS, a sure death. Suchomel hid out and drank vodka to adjust to "the inferno." He says that he learned that the corpses stacked at the railroad tracks were from three daily trains carrying 5,000 people, of whom 3,000 fell out dead on arrival, many by suicide. A new commandant, Christian Wirth, was able to stop the transports so that the corpses could be buried. At this point, there were no "worker Jews," as all the Jews dragging corpses into the trenches were chased into the gas chambers in the evening or shot.
FILM ID 3754 -- Camera Rolls 3-4
Wirth reorganized the Germans, and assigned Suchomel to be head of the "Gold Jews." Lanzmann asks if the Poles in the surrounding villages could smell the odor and Suchomel says everyone knew what was going on in the camp. He says that the Poles were not fond of the Jews but they were also scared. Suchomel describes "the tube" in which 100 men or women were sent to the gas chambers at a time. Some even jockeyed for position, not knowing they were going to their deaths. Many had to wait in the barracks up to three days without food and only a bucket of water because of gas chambers' lack of capacity. Suchomel confirms that the method was carbon monoxide from a truck motor, rather than Zyklon B. When Wirth came, he forced Germans and Jewish prisoners to move the piles of corpses to the trenches. Lanzmann questions the use of Germans, but Suchomel insists that they were ordered to do so. Under Wirth, a new gas chamber was built in September.
FILM ID 3755 -- Camera Rolls 5-10
In the new gas chamber perhaps 200 could fit in at a time and 3,000 people could be "done" in two hours. Lanzmann says that Auschwitz could handle a lot more than that and Suchomel says Auschwitz was a factory, and that though Treblinka was primitive, it was "a well-functioning assembly line of death." Belzec was the laboratory in which Wirth tried everything out before coming to Treblinka. Suchomel describes the second phase of his time at Treblinka after Wirth came, and says the killing went much faster. Lanzmann mentions 18,000 per day, but Suchomel says that the number is too high. Suchomel explains how transports came from Malkinia, ten kilometers away. 30 to 50 train cars arrived, of which varying numbers went on to Treblinka, the rest remaining behind. At the ramp, two Jews from the Blue Detachment ordered the passengers out, supervised by ten Ukrainians and five Germans. The Red Detachment processed the clothing in the undressing room. It took two hours from arrival to death. People had to wait, naked, to enter the gas chamber, and it was very cold by Christmas. Since the women had to get their hair cut and thus wait longer, Suchomel claims that he told the barbers to go slower so they could remain inside. Suchomel describes the "tube" as camouflaged by branches. If the male prisoners resisted entering, they were whipped by Ukrainian guards. Suchomel says he does not know of women being beaten. He says he is often ashamed. Lanzmann responds that Suchomel is the reporter of these historical events.
FILM ID 3756 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 chutes
Suchomel says that some people got rich by fleecing the Warsaw Jews, but in later phases the people were so poor that the women didn't even have wedding rings, having given them up to Poles at Malkinia in exchange for water. Suchomel claims that if he ever reported violence among the prisoners his SS superior told him not to interfere if Jews were beating Jews. Lanzmann asks about the hospital. It was the Blue Detachment's responsibility to accompany those selected by the SS. Once there, people undressed and sat down on a dirt embankment where they were shot in the neck. They were mostly old and sick people who would have disrupted the smooth processing of the assembly line. Suchomel says he couldn't get out of the vicious cycle because he knew of two regime secrets: euthanasia in Berlin and Treblinka. Referring again to the hospital, he explains that people were fooled by the Red Cross flag flying over it. He says that those who arrived in cattle cars with one bucket among them had to be cleaned up by the Blue Detachment upon arrival. The Escort Detachment consisted of Ukrainians and Latvians; the former could be bribed, but the latter not, as they were committed Jew haters. Many passengers committed suicide or died of illness during the transport, most of the rest had gone crazy. Being part of all this, Suchomel tells Lanzmann caused him to have a nervous breakdown and to turn to alcohol. Lanzmann wants more details about the hospital and Suchomel explains that [SS man Willi] Mentz was the neck-shot specialist and people fell into a pit where there was always a fire going.
FILM ID 3757 -- Camera Rolls 11-12
Lanzmann asks which was the better way to die and Suchomel says the neck shot was, because it was quicker; in the gas chamber, with one motor servicing three or four gas chambers, death could take twenty minutes. Suchomel describes his position as the German in charge of the "Gold Jews." He claims that he was harshly punished by Wirth for once allowing a young girl to keep a piece of jewelry. Lanzmann asks about the vaginal exams alleged at Suchomel's trial, but Suchomel says that never happened, as the whole process was designed to move masses of people through the system at top speed. He says that once women knew they were going to their deaths, they cut the veins of their children with razor blades, so the children would die more quickly in the gas chambers. After they gave up their valuables to Suchomel's department the women sat on benches and had their hair cut. In response to a question from Lanzmann Suchomel says he thinks he recognizes the name of Abraham Bomba.
FILM ID 3758 -- Camera Rolls 13-16
After an interruption Lanzmann again asks Suchomel about Bomba. Suchomel says that the Jews were robbed of their human dignity, the SS even took the hair on their heads, and they were treated worse than cattle. Lanzmann asks if Suchomel saw the prisoners as human beings and Suchomel says that he always did, that he was often nauseous and couldn't cope, especially if German Jews came through. He tells of one woman from Berlin who cursed at him and offered herself to him sexually, hoping that insulting the honor of an SS man would force him to shoot her, sparing her the gas chamber. He claims that he talked with her and they drank a bottle of wine together before she was gassed. Suchomel explains again that the excrement in the "tube" was a result of the terror of the women who had to wait while hearing the truck motor and the screaming in the chambers. For the men, there was no waiting, as they were chased through the "tube." Under Commandant Wirth, the unloading, sorting of clothes, herding of prisoners into the chambers had to done quickly, but the removal and burial of corpses took longer.
FILM ID 3759 -- Camera Rolls 17-19
After Katyn became known, in order to destroy the evidence the corpses were dug up and burned in pits with grills made from railroad iron. When no transports arrived in the winter of 1943 and there were still 500-600 "worker Jews," they were given so little to eat that typhus broke out and killed many of them; the rest no longer believed that they would be spared by the SS and told Suchomel that they were just "corpses on vacation." Suchomel prided himself on chatting with his Polish and Czech worker Jews, including women prisoners, in his workshop and letting them have concerts and meetings there. Suchomel says that the Eastern transports came in livestock cars, whereas the Germans and Czech Jews from Theresienstadt arrived in passenger cars, believing they were being resettled. The Eastern Jews were beaten, but the Western Jews were not. Suchomel claims that he spoke with Rudi Masaryk about logistics for escape. Suchomel tells of encountering an old school friend from the Sudentenland and says he offered to save him and his wife. However, the wife had already been killed and the husband chose to die as well.
FILM ID 3760 -- Camera Rolls 20-22 -- 01:00:16 to 01:31:34 [This is the only reel of picture preserved as of 2015.]
CR20 Lanzmann secretly films Franz Suchomel in what appears to be living room. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about his time working in Treblinka. The tube, the pathway the Jewish prisoners were forced to walk through on their way to the gas chambers, was referred to as "The Way to Heaven," "Ascension Way," and "The Last Road," by the prisoners. Suchomel only ever heard the latter two names while working in Treblinka. [No image 01:01:02 to 01:01:10] The transports of Jews from the East arrived in cattle cars, while the transports from the west arrived passenger train cars. At this point in the interview Suchomel requests asks to pause as he is experiencing heart pain. He has angina pectoris. Lanzmann asks him if the pain in brought on by emotion, which Suchomel confirms. After a short pause, the interview picks back up. Suchomel claims the Jews brought from the west were not beaten on their way to the gas chambers. Nevertheless, Jews from the west and east all ended up in the gas chambers. Stangl, Franz and Küttner ordered a façade of a train station to be constructed, complete with flowers throughout the camp, counters, train schedules and a clock. The camp was given the fictitious station name "Ober Maiden," to keep the prisoners calm.
01:10:14 CR21 Lanzmann asks if the SS guards were more afraid of a revolt from the Jews from the west or the east. Suchomel begins telling the story of the Treblinka revolt. He claims he saved the life of a Jewish prisoner twice, Rudi Masaryk, and told him where weapons were located in case Masaryk wanted to escape. Lanzmann tells Suchomel he is not asking about the revolt [recording stops from 01:12:33 to 01:12:38]. The interview continues with Suchomel telling Lanzmann about a Czech transport carrying a former schoolmate, his brother and father. Suchomel says he tried to save his friends life but after he found out his three month pregnant wife had already been gassed, he did not want to live. His brother asked Suchomel to save him, but since his face was beaten green and blue, Suchomel would not save him. When asked why he would not save a man who had been beaten, Suchomel says that is was a standard procedure and cannot further elaborate. Suchomel states that only the worker Jews who were no longer wanted were beaten. [Audio continues after filming stops]
01:20:45 CR22 Franz Küttner would beat prisoners when he felt like it. If the prisoner was not given express permission, this was a death sentence as the prisoners face was marked. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he is alright, as he appears to be in pain. Recounting his experience pains him emotionally and physically, and the interview continues after a moment. The SS guards were worried about the transport of Jews from the Bialystok ghetto. Upson arrival, the men threw bottles and small hand grenades at the guards. When they were unloaded from the train they beat up and wounded with a knife or razor blade Kapo Meier. Kapo Meier was allowed to recover and live instead of being sent to the fake camp hospital, the Lazaret. Suchomel claims he tried to make life as pleasant as possible for the Jews working in his workshops. Jews in the camp began to destroy currency that prisoners brought with them. Jews arriving from Warsaw, Tschenstau and Bialystok in the beginning carried lots of money, which Suchomel’s workshop was in charge of sorting and even gluing together when prisoners ripped it up. His Gold Jews sorted currencies, jewelry and glasses, which were all used for the war. Gold teeth were brought from Camp II, after they had been pried from the mouths of the dead. [Audio continues after filming stops]
FILM ID 3761 -- Camera Rolls 23-25
Suchomel says that he once intervened on behalf of one of his Jewish workers, who was caught with money, then savagely beaten by an SS officer. Though rescued, the worker did not want to be saved and was shot. Upon questioning by Lanzmann about taking money himself, Suchomel insists that he didn't, that he knew the punishment and was too cowardly to risk that. They talk again about the black market economy around the camp. Polish farmers sent their children to the fence to sell him and his workers food. Suchomel explains that ten prostitutes were brought in for the Ukrainian guards, not for the Germans. It was too dangerous for the Germans to go into the surrounding villages, so instead, they got frequent vacations. Lanzmann asks if the prostitutes knew that this was an extermination camp and Suchomel says that everyone, including the villagers and the Polish underground army knew. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about the assertion that "the Jews went to their deaths like sheep to the slaughterhouse."
FILM ID 3762 -- Camera Rolls 26-28
Suchomel replies that people don't know how demoralized the Jews were by the time they reached Treblinka. He speculates on the causes of hatred toward Jews: years of blaming them for misfortunes, greed and envy. He knows from his own experiences that most Polish and Czech Jews were poor. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he feels guilt about his role in Treblinka and Suchomel replies that he is ashamed to have been there and that he feels guilty, yet he quickly adds that his court records show that individual Jews testified in his favor. He says he couldn't stand up to the authorities because of the need to protect his family. Since he was a carrier of two state secrets he couldn't be assigned elsewhere. By chance, he also learned of a third secret, Operation Brand, wherein the Germans euthanized those victims of bombing raids in Germany who were severely injured or became mentally ill. Suchomel says he did not think about suicide, just survival for himself and his family, and that he will have to live with this burden for the rest of his life. He claims that even then he saw Hitler as the biggest mass murderer in history, but couldn't say that to anyone.
FILM ID 3763 -- Camera Rolls 29-30
Suchomel claims he was called "Yom Kippur" by the Jews because he never beat any of them, except two Berlin Jews. He was also called the "Gold Boss." Lanzmann urges Suchomel to sing the Treblinka song, which the prisoners had to sing every morning and evening. Suchomel sings it twice at Lanzmann's bidding, but is concerned that if neo-Nazis heard it, they would call him "a pig."
FILM ID 3764 -- Camera Rolls 31-32
Lanzmann asks what Suchomel remembers most vividly, the euthanasia period or Treblinka. Suchomel says that Treblinka will always be with him, a vicious cycle from which he couldn't free himself. Responding to Lanzmann's questions again about a revolt, Suchomel says that after the Warsaw ghetto uprising was put down, his worker Jews lost all hope of surviving because even the Jews who had worked for the Germans in the ghetto were shot. Some of the surviving ghetto Jews who were brought to Treblinka, however, infected the camp Jews and that's how the will for a revolt began. Discussing Christian Wirth, Suchomel calls him the most brutal man he knows. He was a skilled organizer and was head inspector for Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Lublin. He was a Jew-hater and everyone was afraid of him. Lanzmann pays Suchomel for the interview and asks Suchomel how he feels about being paid by a Jew. Suchomel says that the money is compensation, not a reward for the interview. "Why compensation?" Lanzmann asks and Suchomel says he will suffer for having brought all the old memories to light. Lanzmann wants another interview and gives his word of honor that he will not "betray anything." Suchomel gives his word of honor that they will meet again, but not soon.
--- The following reels contain only audio. ---
FILM ID 3485 -- Audio Reel #1-1-2
FILM ID 3486 -- Audio Reel #3-4
FILM ID 3487 -- Audio Reel #5-6-7-8
FILM ID 3488 -- Audio Reel #9-10-11
FILM ID 3489 -- Audio Reel #12-13
FILM ID 3490-- Audio Reel #13-14-14-15-16
FILM ID 3491-- Audio Reel #17-18-18
FILM ID 3492-- Audio Reel #19-20
FILM ID 3493-- Audio Reel #21-22
FILM ID 3494-- Audio Reel #23-24-25
FILM ID 3495 -- Audio Reel #26-27
FILM ID 3496-- Audio Reel #28-29-30
FILM ID 3497-- Audio Reel #31-32

Raul Hilberg is the author of the seminal book, "The Destruction of the European Jews." In this interview with Claude Lanzmann for SHOAH, Hilberg discusses several aspects of his research, including the culpability of the German railways in the deportation process of European Jews, as well as the significant roles Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner played in the genocide of the European Jews. Hilberg also addresses the general bureaucratic processes at work in the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem. Hilberg is filmed in his home in Burlington, Vermont and on campus at the University of Vermont, probably in late November 1978.
FILM ID 3768 -- Camera Rolls 1-3
CR1 Hilberg discusses the various means by which the genocide of the European Jews was enacted. Hilberg's research focuses on the railroad system (Reichsbahn), as transportation was a critical element in the successful implementation of the Final Solution. Hilberg explains that a clearer understanding of the railroads, which were generally ignored until he began his research, further reveals the extent to which Nazi Germany acted as a totalitarian society. Hilberg states that the Reichsbahn operated with the same "effectiveness and relentlessness" of other bureaucratic agencies and institutions. Like other agencies, the Reichsbahn approached the Jewish Problem with technical solutions.
CR2 Hilberg discusses the banality of the operation and decision-making of the Reichsbahn, the German railway system. The Reichsbahn would transport any cargo--supplies, raw goods, even people--for compensation. The Official Travel Bureau handled the billing details for the regular travel of citizens, as well as the mass deportation of Jews. The Reichsbahn acknowledged no difference between the mass deportations of Jews and the regular trains, as long as appropriate payment was made. Hilberg discusses the administrative problems and compromises made between the Army and the Reichsbahn regarding the funding of the mass deportations.
CR3 Hilberg discusses the banal operation and scheduling of trains within the Reichsbahn. He provides reasons for the surprising lack of priority-scheduling for the deportation trains. Hilberg describes the administrative difficulties of trying to schedule the Sonderzug, the "special trains," that acted as deportation trains between the regularly scheduled trains.
FILM ID 3769 -- Camera Rolls 4-6
CR4 Hilberg discusses the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug by examining a document from the Generalbetreibsleitung Ost (General Business Line) for the Reichsbahn, dated January 16, 1943. Hilberg discusses the bureaucracy of the Reichsbahn, as he points out how the administrator for the Personenwagen (the regular trains) also approved the scheduling of the Sonderzug. Several officials from the Generalbetreibsleitung would coordinate the regional schedules and produce documents like the one Hilberg shares with Lanzmann.
CR5 Hilberg explains the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug (the deportation trains) by examining a Reichsbahn document. The Fahrplananordnung, dated September 15, 1942, documents the times each train arrived and left each station, as well as when the trains were emptied. Hilberg emphasizes the bureaucratic nature of the Reichsbahn, despite its involvement in the mass genocide of the European Jews, by how the document is not "classified." The transparency of the Fahrplananordnung reveals how all levels of German economy were participating willingly in the Final Solution.
CR6 Hilberg explains the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug (the deportation trains) by examining a Reichsbahn document. Hilberg analyzes the specifics of the Fahrplananordnung No. 587, such as how many train cars the transport carried, what time the train arrived, and then when the train had to be ready for another transport. Hilberg describes how documents like the Fahrplananordnung No. 587 are significant to his research because they are the only remaining artifacts that connect him to the bureaucrats who organized the deportations. These documents are the physical proof of how mundane, yet efficient, procedures played critical roles in the destruction of the European Jews. Picture is MISSING sound for part of CR6 - listen to Audio FV3458.
FILM ID 3770 -- Camera Rolls 7,8
Silent CUs, German documents including the Fahrplananordnung and Hilberg’s book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.”
FILM ID 3771 -- Camera Rolls 9-11
CR9 Hilberg describes the length of the train journey for Jews, particularly the Greek Jews to Auschwitz. He emphasizes the significance of the railroads and ordinary men in the Nazi machinery of destruction. Hilberg points out that the railroad resumed operations very quickly in the post-war period and several key men were able to pursue their careers. Sound cuts out and ends abruptly with Hilberg mid-sentence.
CR10 Hilberg describes the lack of prosecution of railroad officials following the war. As an institution that played a critical role in making the Final Solution feasible, the Reichsbahn's reputation remained untarnished for many years after the war. Hilberg believes that the conversations about culpability must be explored because it is only with a clear understanding of the role the Reichsbahn played that we can fully grasp the totalitarian and mobilized nation that was Nazi Germany. Hilberg begins to address the prerequisites that needed to exist for the Final Solution to have been made possible in Europe.
CR11 Hilberg explains how it is the nature of bureaucratic institutions to implement the ideologies and actions from history in their own modern crusades. In the case of Nazi Germany, the Final Solution was the only unprecedented element at play. Hilberg says that the Final Solution was the inevitable step after the incidents of mandatory conversion and Jewish expulsion within history did not solve the Jewish Problem. Hilberg identifies how the invention to totally annihilate European Jews was problematic for the Regime because was that there was no historical precedence from which to learn. Nazi Germany began to carry out the Final Solution with only a general direction in mind. While many people in retrospect understand the efficiency of Auschwitz to be indicative of the whole system of Jewish genocide from the onset, Hilberg points out that this was not the case. The Final Solution eventually became well-defined and highly-efficient after the chaotic and disastrous first steps had been made.
FILM ID 3772 -- Camera Rolls 12-15
CR12,13 Hilberg names specific examples of how the Nazi decrees of the 1930s were reiterations of similar anti-Jewish legislation from history. Hilberg explains that beyond the synods and laws enacted against Jews throughout history, the racist themes from Nazi propaganda were also present in historical church literature. Hilberg discusses the sequential process of seizing Jewish property and eliminating Jewish autonomy. The confiscation of Jewish property began with the removal of all Jews from civil service positions in 1933. This was followed by Aryanization laws, which seized Jewish enterprises and large businesses. Hilberg notes how ironically many Germans were reluctant to change the names of the former Jewish businesses in fear of tarnishing their economic success with new labels.
CR14 Hilberg discusses the process of seizing Jewish property and eliminating Jewish autonomy. Nazi Germany imposed strict wage regulations and taxes, as well as the seizure of large properties and retirement pensions. Personal possessions and apartments were confiscated and redistributed to German families affected by the war, as Jews were relocated in ghettos. Hilberg partially attributes the impetus for the first deportations to the significant apartment shortage in Germany. Hilberg describes the last sequence of confiscating Jewish property, as possessions were seized during roundups and finally removed after they were gassed.
CR15 Hilberg discusses the inefficiencies of the Final Solution, particularly regarding ghettoization. The use of Jews as free labor within the ghettos caused many Jews to wrongfully believe that they would not be killed so long as they worked. Hilberg emphasizes that the ultimate ideology of Nazi Germany, however, held that "a Jew is a Jew." Nothing would save the Jews, not even the economic gain that their free labor provided for the regime.
FILM ID 3773 -- Camera Rolls 16-18
CR16 Hilberg explains the time of uncertainty leading up to the implementation of the Final Solution. He explains that while the plan was not clear and the goal not fully articulated, the general direction was inevitable as early as 1933. A period of hesitation between the second half of 1940-1941 and the unmanaged destruction of Operation Barbarossa in June 1941 prompted the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942. Hilberg explains that all participants understood the gravity of the Final Solution conference, as it was the end of the period of uncertainty.
CR17 Hilberg explains that Operation Barbarossa, which had been in the works as early as July 1940, marked the point of focus of the Final Solution. Hilberg describes how at this point in time, orders were more defined on the Eastern Front. Yet, there was still no clear idea of what to do with the Jewish population in Europe. Hilberg discusses the use of Fuhrerbehfel and the power of inferred directives.
CR18 Hilberg discusses the initial stages of invention as Nazi Germany began to plan the Final Solution. He describes a letter Rolf Heinz Hoppner sent to Adolf Eichmann on July 16, 1941 in which he proposes mass execution to solve the problems within the ghetto system. Hilberg suggests that Nazi officials were increasingly aware of the focused direction in which the Final Solution was headed by 1941. However, the Reich's first solution to send the ghetto Jews out East where the Einsatzgruppen (the task forces responsible for mass executions) were already operating quickly needed to be amended. By the end of 1941, the Einsatzgruppen began to utilize gas vans for the extermination of women and children.
FILM ID 3774 -- Camera Roll 19,20,26,21,22
CR19 Hilberg describes the chaotic state of Poland by the end of 1940 and into 1941, as the Reich continued to deport Jews to the Eastern Front. Hilberg describes how the East was a vague concept for even high ranking Nazi officials, and the constant transports to the Eastern Front forced Reich officials to begin working on concrete solutions to the Jewish Problem. In December 1941, the first deportation of the Lodz Jews was sent to the extermination camp in Chelmno.
CR20 Hilberg describes the Einsatzgruppen, the special operation force that was responsible for mass killings in the East. Hilberg describes the Seelisch Belastung, or psychological distress, that the Einsatzgruppen experienced, as well as the gas vans at Chelmno. The lack of secrecy of the Einsatzgruppen's operations, as well as the effects the perpetrators experienced following the pogroms, contributed to the Nazi Regime's push for secrecy. Camp enclosures and gas chambers were constructed to hide the reality of the Final Solution from the civilians and the victims.
CR26 “2 perfo 404” Hilberg continues to discuss why the Germans didn’t want the information about the killings to be known.
CR21 Lanzmann introduces the concept of secrecy and Hilberg responds that the secrecy of the Final Solution relied upon how many people knew about the camps (“a quantitative issue”) and more importantly how many people believed and openly talked about what was happening in the camps. The Nazi regime cultivated a language of euphemisms, keeping those who knew the reality of the situation from saying anything condemning or giving victims an explanation.
CR22 Hilberg continues to talk about secrecy and the attempt to reduce anxiety or reinforce hope among the Jewish community about their fate. They talk about the amount of information in contrast to the amount of silence.
FILM ID 3775 -- Camera Rolls 27-29
CR27 Lanzmann briefly explains that Czerniakow was the Jewish Chairman (Judenrat) for the Warsaw ghetto, and that no other diary like Czerniakow’s has been discovered. Hilberg calls the diary the most unique and important document from the Jewish perspective about the Holocaust. Hilberg says that Czerniakow recorded every day over a three-year period in his diary, in a very honest and matter-of-fact style, up until the day he took his life on July 23, 1942. It covers all subjects relevant to life in the ghetto including “food, space, labor, hostages, children, shootings, violence, deportations, ghettoization.” Hilberg says the diary transcends time, acting as a “window” into the Jewish community. Lanzmann says Czerniakow never had any illusions, to which Hilberg responds that Czerniakow never had the illusion of himself being a great man.
CR28 Lanzmann mentions that Czerniakow was different, because he commits suicide instead of doing the terrible things that the three other chairmen did. Czerniakow had a bottle of cyanide pills in his drawer. In his diary, he was always talking about the end, knowing even in the first week that the Germans would soon come. He knew about the ghetto wall being built and was not surprised by the events that unfolded. Lanzmann asks why Czerniakow took the job, and why did he keep it. Hilberg says he took it when the existing chairman of the Jewish community fled, and he felt a sense of responsibility. Up until that point, at 59 years old, Czerniakow was not a majorly successful or prominent figure in the Polish Jewish community. His life goals were to be loyal and steadfast. Czerniakow says in his diary that he suffers because of his job, but he does it because he has to, “as a matter of duty”. Hilberg highlights two parts of the diary: 1) a woman in Warsaw who reburied her love, representing the highest virtue and 2) a conversation in the Jewish council about mentors.
CR29 The camera momentarily focuses on a book in front of Hilberg that says “Documents of Destruction” before panning right and zooming out on Hilberg. Hilberg continues to tell the story of the boy who was shot. To Czerniakow this boy was a representation of a mentor, of loyalty. Hilberg discusses how Czerniakow’s diary reveals that he despised all emigrants. He believed that they were not helping the Jewish community by being on the outside, even if they said they were leaving with those intentions. Czerniakow thought it was better to stay, even if it meant collaborating with the Germans. Hilberg then highlights the paradoxical dilemma of those members of the Jewish council. Lanzmann focuses on this idea of collaboration, asking Hilberg what he thinks about the people who call the Jewish councilmen collaborators. Hilberg says that one really needs to put themselves in the perspective of the Jews at that time. Camera zooms out. Hilberg says that this concept of collaboration may not really have existed at the time, because there was not a single Jewish person who would have wanted to aid the German cause. When Germans put the Jewish people in these positions of power, they weren’t choosing them, they were just appointing the men who were “on hand”. At least they were from within the Jewish community, rather than Germans from the outside. CU of Hilberg as he says that this was the real disaster, because this way they managed to retain the trust and allegiance of the Jewish people. They discuss Jewish traitors. Hilberg says that the Jews did not ever mean to help the Germans, and when it happened, they were actually making those extreme concessions in order to help the Jews. If they could not do that, they would commit suicide as Czerniakow did. Zooms out. Hilberg mentions how briefly he talked about Jews aiding in their own downfall. Hilberg says that he really elaborated on the story since then and tries to relay it in a more consoling way. Lanzmann suggests the term “human”.
FILM ID 3776 -- Camera Rolls 30-32
CR30 Hilberg discusses the morale-building devices Adam Czerniakow organized in the Warsaw Ghetto. Hilberg believes that the festivals reflected Czerniakow's desire to display hope and the continuity of life despite the inevitability of death facing the people of the Warsaw Ghetto.
CR31 Hilberg describes Adam Czerniakow's appeals to the deportation notices scheduled for July 22, 1942. Czerniakow fought for the survival of orphans above all others as he petitioned to the Germans.
CR32 Hilberg discusses the "mute heroism" of the Jewish community. Hilberg rationalizes Jewish passivity to the deportations. Hilberg describes how their rationalization was a mistake, as most people did not recognize that the deportations were indicative of the solution to wipe out their entire population.
FILM ID 3777 -- Camera Rolls 33,43,44
CR33 Hilberg discusses the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which took place between April 19 and May 16, 1943. He describes how the Warsaw Jews' violent resistance to Nazi Germany was an indication that they understood the fate of the Jewish race in Europe. Hilberg notes how the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was a unique and significant moment because it was unlike the classic appeals and concessions Jewish leaders made to their persecutors throughout history.
CR43 Hilberg discusses the ways in which various Jewish Councils were engaged in hope and how they appealed to Germans in order to save the Jewish population. Hilberg describes how the Jewish Councils often complied with the deportation lists because many of them believed that sacrificing some Jews would ensure the survival of the general population. Hilberg describes this as a "formula for disaster," as it did not appease the Nazi regime, nor did it save more lives.
CR44 Hilberg discusses the deportation situation in Hungary and the role Rudolf Kasztner (a leader of the Rescue Committee) played in the destruction of the Hungarian Jews. Hilberg notes how Kasztner had an unusual-albeit correct-understanding of the Final Solution. Unlike Adam Czerniakow and other Jewish council men who wrote and approved deportation lists, Kasztner composed a list of names of Hungarian Jews to save. The rest of the Hungarian Jews were deported to camps.
FILM ID 3778 -- Camera Rolls 35,36,37,38,39
CR35 Silent shots of the University of Vermont campus in Burlington. Hilberg exits a building and walks along the sidewalk. CR36 More shots of campus and Hilberg. CR37 Similar shots, pan of campus, American flag, automobile traffic. CR38 UVM campus and suburban homes. CR39 Brief INTs of HIlberg’s home with Hilberg and Lanzmann seated during the interview.
FILM ID 3779 -- Camera Rolls 45-49
CR45 Hilberg explains why he gives credit to Jewish leaders like Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner, who were put in the difficult position of approving deportations and compromising with Nazi Germany. Hilberg credits the men with the ability to see the reality of the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem over the illusion they would have preferred to be true.
CR46,47 Hilberg describes the Nazi regime's bureaucratic process of eliminating Jewish autonomy in Europe. He notes the Nazi regime's total seizure of power over Jewish life, as the Reichsvertretugg, the organization that represented all German Jews regardless of political, religious, or social differences, was subsumed by the Interior Ministry in 1939. The organization would eventually aid in the deportation of German Jews. Hilberg proceeds to explain the bizarre nature of the all-encompassing, bureaucratic system. Hilberg explains how mundane procedures were necessary in order to implement the Final Solution. This meant that solutions to transportation, billing, and housing, among other things needed to be solved as the system continued to work. Hilberg describes how everyone participated in helping solve these administrative and psychological problems at one time or another.
CR48,49 Hilberg discusses the Nazi Regime's bureaucratic process of defining a 'Jew.' There was a great need to determine what separated a Jew from an Aryan before the larger process of removing Jews could be implemented. Hilberg describes how an entire profession of researching family histories was created to aid in the bureaucratic sorting system. Courts were also given more business, as appeals to decisions of race were made. The problem of "mischlinge," people with partial Aryan heritage, became too complicated an issue to solve, as Nazi officials identified varying degrees of mischlinge within German society. Hilberg notes how the Nazi regime chose every time to protect Germany economy and Aryan society. Therefore, problems were always resolved by making things more difficult for Jews, rather than pardoning them or making exceptions. Hilberg discusses the initiative and responsibility assumed by different sectors of the administrative regime. Hilberg describes how the Civil Service, the Army, the German industry, and the Nazi Party pursued their own set of goals and personal successes. The four sectors were forced from time to time to solve problems together in order to continue their general movement towards the Final Solution.
FILM ID 3780 -- Camera Rolls 50-51
CR50 Hilberg discusses how the Nazi Party ideologists did not play a major role in the bureaucratic system that implemented the Final Solution. Instead, experts from the German industry played a major role in the success of the German economy and the efficiency of the camps. Hilberg discusses IG Farben as a company that played a major role in the destruction of the Jewish population.
CR51 Hilberg discusses the presence of IG Farben in Auschwitz and the high-ranking officials' awareness of the mass genocide taking place in the camp. Hilberg cites a document that proves IG Farben's complicity. Hilberg finally remarks upon the general attitude Germans have towards their country's past. Hilberg says that the older generation, which is strikingly different from the younger generation, finds it necessary to eliminate the recent past from its memory. In this way of ignoring recent history, Hilberg believes that it is very unlikely that there is honest conversation between the young and old generations.
FILM ID 3781 -- Coupes -- CR24M,25M,52M,53M,54M,plus -- Documents Inter Ancien
Silent CUs Lanzmann during the interview with Hilberg. He smokes. 04:59 Lanzmann in different clothing, turning the pages of a book, smoking, and taking notes. 08:37 Lanzmann, without the sport coat, rolling up his shirt sleeves, cleaning his eyeglasses, taking notes, and listening to Hilberg. 10:49 CR52 CUs of German documents, including various sections of the Fahrplananordung. 12:37 Handwritten intertitle,“Holocauste”. Terms in the Fahrplananordung are underlined or circled in red. 16:57 “Holocaust Document No. 1” intertitle. 17:11 “Document No. 2” Again, the Fahrplananordung in closeup with red markings. End title, “Holocauste”.
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FILM ID 3477 - 36,37, SON SEUL LONGER AMBIANCE CAMPUS, 040 (audio only)
CR36,37 matches to FIlm ID 3778
01:59 SON SEUL - ambiance on UVM campus.
03:27 SON SEUL - CR 040 Hilberg reads from the diary of Adam Czerniakow, the Judenrat of the Warsaw Ghetto, about activities of the Nazi propaganda filmmakers who traveled to Warsaw in May 1942. 12:45 Lanzmann interrupts with instructions for Hilberg and Hilberg goes on.
FILM ID 3478 - SON SEUL 041,042,043 (audio only)
SON SEUL 041 - Hilberg reads from the diary of Adam Czerniakow, the Judenrat of the Warsaw Ghetto, from his entry on June 14, 1942.
01:40 SON SEUL 042 - Hilberg reads excerpts from a daily newspaper circulated in the Warsaw Ghetto. The newspaper lists the prices of goods for sale each day.
03:07 SON SEUL 043 - Hilberg reads another excerpt from the daily newspaper circulated in the Warsaw Ghetto.
03:39 CR43 matches to Film ID 3777
FILM ID 3480 - SON SEUL 045 (audio only)
CR45 matches to Film ID 3779
06:22 SON SEUL 045 - Hilberg talks about the character of Kasztner.

Inge Deutschkron, a German Jew who appears only briefly in Lanzmann's completed film, witnessed the increasing persecution and violence in Berlin, including the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws and Kristallnacht. Her father escaped to England but she and her mother remained behind and went into hiding in 1943. Lanzmann interviews her in a coffee house in Berlin in which she remembers seeing a "Jews Not Wanted" sign during the Nazi years.
FILM ID 3420 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:08 to 01:33:06
CR 1 Inge Deutschkron sits in a café speaking with Lanzmann. She expresses feeling strange, since in the past Jews had been prohibited from the coffeehouse. Gradually, establishments put up signs barring Jewish patronage, and there was a danger of entering and being recognized. The signs that barred Jewish customers were sometimes posted by proprietors voluntarily but mostly under duress. 01:04:32 Deutschkron says that although the process was gradual, it was no less shocking for German Jews, who had believed they were Germans. It was, however, a step in rebuilding the country after the chaos of Weimar. Friends of her father that believed the Nazi party was necessary to reassert order in Germany and that antisemitism would eventually quell. Since Jewish establishments had not yet been extinguished, Jewish public life merely migrated towards them in the hope that the vitriol would pass. Jews rearranged their lives under the pretense that life would return to normal. 01:07:57 She describes her father, a committed Socialist and former deputy school headmaster in Germany, who was forced out of his position. Branded as an enemy of the state, he had to survive on a meager pension and slim prospects for future employment. Jewish parents sent their children to Jewish schools. Her father eventually found work at a Zionist school. Inge went to a regular German high school.
01:11:25 CR2 Inge describes the transition from primary to secondary school. Before high school, she was not sure what the implications of being Jewish were. She saw herself as more Socialist than Jewish, and would often assist her parents in political endeavors, such as folding leaflets. But Inge had trouble with her Jewish religion class in high school, because she had no formal instruction in the Jewish tradition. She talks about a friend who was a member of the Nazi Girls Association. She would say "Heil Hitler" upon parting to which Inge would respond "Auf Weidersehen". 01:14:53 Inge moved to a new school with many Jews. The school was named after the original Jewish headmaster, but in 1935, the school began discriminating against Jewish children. So, she was sent to an exclusively Jewish school. The family moved with non-Jewish friends to a completely new district. At that time, it was not yet taboo for Jews and non-Jews to have public friendships. Her family was denounced and the Gestapo raided their home. They found nothing. She describes an inn which would display Nazi materials, among them, an image of the Berlin police president (a Jew) depicted in a compromising position with an Aryan woman.
01:22:28 CR3 Deutschkron says the laws enacted in September 1935 (finally) disrupted the lives of normal Jewish people. Romantic relationships and friendships were forbidden, which, Inge says, was the source of many jokes to lighten spirits. She claims that the 1933 laws did drive some to leave, due to being unable to practice their professions. But many believed that the discrimination would eventually pass. Lanzmann asks Inge to define the difference between the Jewish experience in large cities like Berlin and smaller towns. The plight of Jews in small towns was "dreadful," since it was much more difficult to hide from public attention where everyone knew you. Her father did not think to emigrate because he believed the climate would pass, and even refused a teaching job in Australia. Inge says things only got worse after the enactment of the Nuremberg laws. Business at Jewish shops decreased.
FILM ID 3421 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:07 to 02:33:23
CR 4 In the café, Inge relays jokes inspired by the discriminatory laws. People with Jewish names encountered problems with the authorities. Some with Jewish ancestors were allowed to change their names to avoid the stigma that came with them. 02:04:34 Inge describes career-change institutions that would allow Jews that wished to emigrate to become better candidates for employment abroad. There were courses for shoe-making, chocolate-making, agricultural work, and so on. Her father, a very impractical man, opted to train with a local Jewish shoe-maker in Berlin. 02:07:14 Her uncle trained as a chocolatier. Her family wanted to move to Palestine and become farmers despite having little knowledge of what such an endeavor would entail. Inge's uncle did move there, but returned to Berlin shortly after, complaining about the climate, people, and working environment. Lanzmann describes full-page newspaper ads for such emigration programs, mostly advertised by non-Jews. She describes the emerging profession of "Specialist for Immigration".
02:11:23 CR5 People did not offer fair prices for Deutschkrons' possessions and the family had little negotiation power. She describes the trauma of selling one's worldly goods and the general prosperity of many Germans. It was difficult to publicly express anti-Hitler sentiment and the divide between Jews and non-Jews grew. 02:14:48 Inge describes the "Year of the Marking" (1938) when laws were passed compelling German Jews to carry id cards with fingerprints, the letter "J", and a photo with their left ear in full view, since the Nazis maintained that such a feature could be used to spot someone of Jewish heritage. She talks about riding on the train looking at the people around her to decipher differences in the shape of ears. New parents had to select from a list of approved names. 02:21:50 Lanzmann says that Switzerland insisted on the branding of passports.
02:22:31 CR6 Inge says that Switzerland was not sympathetic to Austrian Jews wishing to escape the Nazis. Some were detained at the border and sent to concentration camps. Rich German Jews were required to disclose the extent of their wealth to the German government (the Deutschkrons had relatively little money and property). Park benches were marked for Jews-only. Inge says attracting such attention would have been unbearable for her. 02:25:50 The events that led to Kristallnacht were extremely convenient for the Nazis, who had been waiting for an opportunity to strike at the Jews. She describes Grynszpan's shooting of a German diplomat in Paris, and the resulting expulsion of Polish Jews from Germany. Inge experienced this when she found Polish classmates absent from school. A few hours after von Rath's death, the Deutschkrons received a distressed phonecall from a family friend claiming that the Nazis had taken her husband into custody. Several more calls came detailing the arrest of wealthy and intellectual Jews. 02:29:55 Inge relates the fear that their telephone lines had been tapped. They awoke the next morning to news that synagogues were burning and Jewish businesses had been plundered. Her mother wished to see for herself, so the family went into the street. They not only saw chaos but the willful ignorance of the non-Jewish population. Her family passed a barber shop, and the proprietor yelled "Get out of Germany, you Jews!" Inge's mother responded, "You dirty swine!" despite her father's fear. Inge's father opted to go to work that morning, and the Gestapo called their home an hour after he left.
FILM ID 3422 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 - 03:00:07 to 03:22:28
CR 7 Still in the coffeehouse, Deutschkron speaks of the Gestapo arriving at her home. Her mother pretended to be ignorant of Kristallnacht events and answered their questions calmly. She said her husband went to work. They entered the home and one sat in her father's chair while the other guarded the door. They said he should report to the police station immediately. She raced to the phone, dialed her husband and, concerned that the line had been bugged, uttered the single word "disappear". Inge's mother then started cleaning up the apartment and decided to go shopping in order to maintain a semblance of normality. 03:03:26 They noticed looting in the streets. Her mother hoped that her father sought help from friends. Eventually, however, he arrived at the apartment, and maintained that, since the German police had specifically asked for him, there was no real way for him to effectively disappear. She sought advice from Social Democratic friends who urged him to go into hiding. 03:05:43 Inge talks about their two weeks in hiding. They returned home once it was clear that "the action" was over. Their neighbor informed them that the Gestapo indeed called in their absence, but since milk bottles were collecting at the doorstep, there was nobody home. 03:07:36 Men who had been unable to hide ended up in concentration camps, some of whom found a way to emigrate to England. The events finally convinced her father to emigrate. Inge recalls lines of people waiting outside of the American consulate in Berlin. Now, if one wished to leave, they were forced to leave their wealth behind.
03:11:15 CR8 Inge describes barriers to emigration. The Nazi government required a colossal exit fee. Equally problematic was finding a country willing to take you in. She says her father would not go to Syria because of the rumor of the "Aleppo Boil". The last resort was Shanghai, but the thought of moving to such a strange land was unappealing. 03:15:16 The Deutschkrons turned to relatives in England, who agreed to take in a single family member. Since Inge's father was in the most immediate danger, he left on April 19, 1939. The family vacated their flat in Berlin. Inge and her mother expected to follow on to Britain. 03:19:47 Inge and her mother moved into a furnished room. They considered becoming housemaids in Britain. Inge's mother received a letter from a professor in Glasgow who was willing to hire her as a cook and Inge as a maid. They began the long, paperwork process.
FILM ID 3423 -- Camera Rolls #7A -- Coupes 2 Trains Grunewald -- 08:00:08 to 08:07:15
CR 7A Mute coupes of an outdoor train station. Inge stands at a ticket booth. Glimpses of travelers' feet. The camera stabilizes and focuses on Inge sitting on a platform bench. The station sign reads "Berlin-Grunewald"; the time is 1:40 pm. As the train arrives, Inge motions to the filmmakers. She stands, sits back down, laughing. Aboard the train, Inge sits by the window watching the scenery. The train pulls into another station and leaves. Inge looks out the window. The scenery is green and lush, with roads here and there. The train passes through a moderately sized village, slows and stops. Inge stands, shoulders her bag, and moves towards the exit. Inge stands on the platform. The camera focuses on a departing train. The station sign reads "Lehrter Bahnhof".
FILM ID 3424 -- Camera Rolls #8A,8B,3A,6A -- Coupes 1 Salon de The -- 07:00:07 to 07:11:28
Mute shots of Lanzmann on camera speaking to Inge Deutschkron. He nods as she responds. They sit in a Berlin café. It is raining; cars and pedestrians with umbrellas pass by. The camera pulls back, presenting a view of both in conversation. Inge gestures with her hands as she speaks, and Lanzmann nods in acknowledgement. Lanzmann lights a cigarette. He takes notes as she speaks. CUs. 07:05:39 Cut to exterior of the street signs at the intersection of Kurfurstendamm and Joachimstaler Strasse. The camera pans across the street showing rain-slicked pavement, passers-by with umbrellas, and slow-moving cars, before eventually settling on the café in which Deutschkron and Lanzmann converse. The camera zooms in from outside. 07:10:48 Cut to the interior of the coffee shop. CU of Inge Deutschkron speaking with Lanzmann. CU of Deutschkron's hand, toying with a teapot on the table.
FILM ID 3425 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 04:00:07 to 04:33:27
CR9 A train pulls into the station and stops. People disembark and passengers board. The camera pans to Inge Deutschkron and Lanzmann sitting at a platform bench, speaking with one another. German Jews were not permitted to own radios or electronics, but Inge and her mother kept theirs. There was a curfew in place. She addresses the first few days of the war. Inge's ration cards were marked with the letter "J". 04:03:16 Lanzmann notes that there was kind of an iron curtain separating Germany from the world. Inge concurs, and continues to list the aspects of life that were cut off: hairdressers, laundry services, so on. She tried to visit these places, believing that if one were to adhere to all of the discriminatory laws, they would lose their sanity. 04:04:31 She says around 200,000 Jews remained in Berlin. She speaks of emigration. German Jews were no longer permitted to live in homes owned by non-Jews. Inge recalls at one point residing with nine other German Jews in a five bedroom flat, with one bathroom and one kitchen. Jews were forced to perform hard labor in "labor exchanges". She speaks of a supervisor who once worked in a Jewish textile factory and had not prospered, so sought revenge against the Jews he was now overseeing. Communication by telephone was not possible for Jews, but she says, it was unnecessary since they were living close to each other. This was not quite ghettoization. Public transport was only available to Jews commuting to work. Jews had not been "marked" yet but there was a danger one might be recognized, so very few broke the rules. But, Inge claims she would often defy the laws: attend cinema, walk in parks, and break curfew. Rumors easily spread, and fear was rife.
04:11:18 CR10 A train pulls into the station as Inge, off camera, describes the desolate mood during the outbreak of war. The Jews were hopeful that the conflict would mean the end of Hitler, but they were also suddenly aware that the Nazis could do anything they wanted. Community leaders were gone and morale was low. 04:14:18 Although Inge was not religious, she describes her father's gradual return to Judaism. She felt cut off from the world. Her mother couldn't reach her father and letters were undeliverable. Lanzmann asks if she had any inclination that she would spend the entirety of the war in Berlin (she says no). The Jewish community had believed the war would be over quickly, that Hitler would be defeated within a matter of months. Inge and her mother still had non-Jewish German friends, but contact was minimal. The Jews were forced to work only the jobs that Germans did not want. With victories, people began to rally around the German war effort. Inge speaks of bomb attacks in Berlin, and describes bomber planes overhead. Jews were forced to sit in a separate area of the air raid shelters.
04:22:14 CR11 Inge talks about being forced to sit in air raid shelters for a long time because of rumors that Jews would give signals to the enemy. Inge worked in textiles, making silk for parachutes. Her mother worked the night shift at a radio battery factory. Their labor exchange was run by a staunch antisemite. Along with the Gypsises, their positions were assigned, they were paid less than the Germans, and had to pay an additional 15% tax on their wages. Inge would stand for ten hours, changing spindles on machinery. German employees would not speak to her. Her commute was 1.5 hours, and as a Jew, she had to stand during the journey. There were also no chairs in the Jewish break room. She was given a Star of David to wear on her work overalls that she would remove outside of work. 04:29:36 In order to avoid work, Inge wore high heels to the factory and was eventually afflicted with an injured knee. When she went to the factory doctor, he asked inappropriate sexual questions and performed a pelvic exam. Jews were viewed as little more than slaves. The star was mandatory in September 1941. The Jewish Community was tasked with distribution and there was a fee. Jews were instructed that the patch be sewn firmly above the heart. They were ordered to wear them indoors and out; their homes were similarly labeled.
FILM ID 3426 -- Camera Rolls #13,15,17 -- 05:00:08 to 05:28:26
CR13 Inge heard about the deportations of Jews beginning in October 1939, but in little detail, since there was no real contact between disparate Jewish communities. Inge's family lived in a block of flats marked with the Jewish star, but non-Jews also lived there. When a friend visited, he rang the bell but would stand at the door of non-Jewish neighbors. 05:04:53 Inge was palpably concerned for her own safety due to the new Star law. She had before flirted with a young man on her daily train commute, but when he first saw her with the star, he looked at her with sympathetic eyes and she never saw him again. When she boarded the train later that day, a man repeatedly offered his seat to her. She had to show him the star before he stopped. The wearing of the star brought "sad sympathy" to interactions between Jews and non-Jews. 05:07:59 Inge talks of being stared at or sneered at. She says that she would sometimes remove her star in order to visit shops, since they were so hungry.
05:09:30 CR15 In September 1941, an elderly woman in their building received a letter from the Jewish community regarding her possessions. One member of the Jewish Community visited the workshop where Inge worked in October 1941. She learned that recipients of the letters were to be deported. That evening (without warning from Inge who thought this was a rumor) the woman was suddenly deported and taken with others to a synagogue. 05:17:57 Some who tried to bring food to the synagogue were turned away by Jewish officials and told that those inside were being looked after. They were deported one day later. That same day, the Gestapo confiscated the woman's belongings from her room.
05:19:08 CR17 Now they knew that a letter meant deportation. Lanzmann interjects, pointing out that the Nazis were trying to rid Berlin of Jews entirely. Inge says that there was no secrecy surrounding the deportations. Removals were performed by functionaries from the Jewish Community. Jews whose jobs were not essential to the war effort and the unemployed were selected for removal. Lanzmann asks if there were any fees, and Inge says no, the Jews had nothing. 05:25:31 Inge claims that the Jews did not truly believe deportation was a death sentence. They were in denial and believed people were sent to work camps. She thought they would eventually be called for deportation, and she received a letter. But, her mother refused to let her leave alone. Inge was not so much horrified by deportation, but by separation from her mother. They viewed the situation as a race - if they managed to avoid deportation for long enough, English victory would save them.
FILM ID 3427 -- Camera Rolls #16A,12,12A,16CF,17A,14A,20A,18A,19A -- Coupes 2 Trains de Grunewald --09:00:07 to 09:07:34
Mute shots of the Berlin-Grunewald train station platform. A train leaves the station. 09:00:36 With sound, a train pulls into the station and passengers disembark. Quick view of Inge on a bench, followed by no picture. 09:02:04 Mute shots of the empty platform. A train passes in the background. A train pulls into the station. 09:02:51 With sound, a couple holds hands as they prepare to board. The train stops. Passengers disembark, and others board, luggage in hand. The train pulls out of the station. 09:04:00 No sound as a train departs. 09:04:17 Another view of a train departing. 09:04:26 A man sits on the station bench. Brief glimpse of sound engineer with equipment at right. With sound, a train enters the station, stops, and the man waves and boards the train. The camera pans, to show briefly Inge Deutschkron sitting on a station bench. 09:05:40 With sound, another train leaving the station. Sound engineer. Mute shots of a train with Friedrichstrasse" sign pulling in. The platform announcer steps into frame. 09:06:27 "Berlin-Grunewald" station sign. 09:06:40 Mute shots of people on the train platform. A train pulls into the station. CUs of train windows as it passes. 09:07:31 "BOB 28" slate with Lanzmann (his face is cut out of the frame) behind.
FILM ID 3428 -- Camera Rolls #18-21
CR18 Inge describes feeling stunned and alone. She speaks about the complicity of the Jewish Community in the deportations and the irony that those who should have been supporting them were facilitating their fate. Lanzmann asks whether she believes they participated in order to save themselves. She describes her disdain, but concedes that, since she was never put in the situation of the Jewish Community, she should not judge them. Older Jews began to marry rather than face deportation alone. The suicide rate rose. She refused to believe the rumor propagated by the BBC in 1942 that claimed gassing and mass murder was taking place. Many of the factories in Berlin objected to deportation because they lost workers, and Jewish employees worked hardest since their lives depended on it. People disappeared, but they kept believing they would survive. Inge's mother tried to learn more from a friend, a non-Jewish female owner of a laundromat, but the woman would not divulge anything. Many German Jews evaded the Nazis.
CR19 Inge says the Vienna Gestapo was called upon to swiftly solve the Jewish problem in Berlin, and started driving to Jewish residences with vans, taking people without warning. Meanwhile, the Deutschkrons discussed how to avoid deportation.Their non-Jewish friends advised evading the authorities. They opted to go "U-Boat" or underground. One morning, the Gestapo called their house to clear the room of a recent deportee. The officer questioned her mother about why she was home and threatened deportation. She protested that she had a daughter and that they should go together. On January 15, 1943, they took their belongings and left the house. They returned to collect a forgotten watch. Inge describes feeling her anxieties diminish living in secret, and no longer wearing the Star. She felt free from fear. The deportations continued. Inge received a call from a friend at the Jewish Community warning her to stay inside on February 27.
CR20 Inge received a call from her friend at the Jewish Community warning her to stay inside on February 27. Police raided the streets of Berlin clearing the city of Jews. Lanzmann interjects that there were "officially" no Jews alive in Berlin after this. Inge agrees, aside from Jews in mixed marriages who were considered non-Jewish. She watched people being torn from their homes. They could not believe what was happening. Berlin's Jews were herded together into dance halls and camps before being deported. Inge claims she had never felt so alone. She felt guilty to be one of the last Jews living underground in Berlin. [sound cut off]
FILM ID 3429 -- Camera Rolls #23A,7B,24 -- Coupes 3 Lions de Goebbels -- 11:00:07 to 11:08:27
CR 23A Mute shots of a bronze lion statue (Lions de Goebbels), camera pans to the base, where a large "W" is engraved. The lion is a copy of a statue called the Flensburg Lion. A young boy leans against the base. Coca-Cola stand behind the statue. Two men and one woman stand around a table conversing. Cut back to the lion statue in profile, back lit by the sky. Pan to reveal landscape beyond the park. Quick shot of a bus. The lion, shown from various angles. 11:02:06 CR 24 Lanzmann talks a man who seems to run a stall in a market near the Wannsee House, where the infamous conference took place in January 1942. The man tells Lanzmann that the lion was moved to the location by Hitler in 1938. The man indicates the Wannsee House (not visible) and says that it has been proposed as a memorial to the Jews but other people want to keep the playground for the children that is currently on the site. Lanzmann asks whether everyone knows this history but the man says he thinks not. Lanzmann says he tried to enter the house but was not allowed. Lanzmann asks him what he knows about the conference and corrects him when he describes it as persecution rather than destruction of the Jews. They talk about the area, how it has changed, how expensive the area has become. He asks Lanzmann what he is doing with the film equipment and offers to rent him a boat if he needs it. The Wannsee House was not established as a memorial until 1992.
FILM ID 3430 -- Camera Rolls #25,30A,30B -- Coupes 2 Chutes, Trains -- 10:00:08 to 10:02:01
CR 25 Train station platform (with sound). A train slows to a halt. People disembark and passengers board. 10:01:09 CR30A Inge Deutschkron sitting on a station bench (quick). 10:01:26 CR30B Mute shots of a slow moving train and station surroundings - several tracks form in the BG with parked cars in the FG.
FILM ID 3431 -- Camera Roll #30A -- Coupes 4 Grunewald -- 12:00:08 to 12:08:13
Mute scenes of an empty station platform at Berlin-Grunewald. Inge Deutschkron sits at a nearby bench looking through her purse. She stops, and waits. The camera zooms in on her, then out. Inge in conversation (silent) with Lanzmann in the same location. A train passes behind them. The camera zooms in on Lanzmann. He repeatedly nods as Deutschkron speaks. The camera zooms out showing both speakers. Slowly, zoom in on Lanzmann again.

Lanzmann filmed the few surviving Jews of Corfou, Greece. Many are craftsmen who experienced deportation to Auschwitz and Birkenau. Some interviews take place in the synagogue.
FILM ID 3406 -- Camera Rolls #4-11A -- Armando Aaron -- 01:00:08 to 01:24:10
Surviving Jews of Corfu walk down a street in Corfu, Greece with Lanzmann. The four survivors walk towards the camera. 01:03:05 Armando Aaron explains (in French) that on June 9, 1944, the Jews of Corfu (numbering 1,650) were ordered by the Germans to gather near an old Venetian fort in the city. 01:03:55 Two more takes of the survivors walking along a city street towards the camera. 01:05:04 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] CR9 The survivors approach the camera again and Aaron explains the deportation order (filmed near the site). Christians gathered to watch out of curiosity. Jews who didn't report were shot. Aaron refers to the Rikanati brothers - Jews who helped the Germans - and the level of anti-Semitism in Greece at the time. Jewish property was stolen by the Germans and given to the Greek state. He and the other survivors describe the terrible boat transport to Haidari camp (near Athens) and then by rail to Auschwitz, which took nine days. Only 65 Jews remain in Corfu today. He says it was very difficult to return to Corfu after the war. [sound out at 01:17:03, camera focuses on survivors' tattooed arm] 01:18:41 CR11 Aaron suggests that Corfu's Jews became "entertainment". Lanzmann presses him to explain why he is so afraid, even today. Aaron doesn't really respond and instead briefly explains the processing at the fort during the deportation again. 01:22:21 Silent CUs of survivors. [picture in and out at times; sound is intact throughout]
FILM ID 3407 -- Camera Rolls #15-21 -- Moshe Mordu -- 02:00:08 to 02:21:59
Establishing shots of an alley in Corfu filled with workshops of silversmiths and woodcarvers [picture in and out]. 02:02:33 CR17 Moshe Mordu hammers a metal pot. CU of the camp tattoo on his arm. 02:03:18 CR18 Another take of Mordu in his workshop. He reads the number on his arm (in Italian). He relates his experience at Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, and Dachau. He is the only survivor of his family. He speaks with tears in his eyes. He chants in Hebrew. 02:11:19 Picture out. 02:11:44 Silent CUs of Mordu's tattoo and face. 02:14:00 No image through the end of the roll. There is some conversation, but it is not coherent.
FILM ID 3408 -- Camera Rolls #30-34 -- La synagogue, part 1 -- 03:00:08 to 03:08:10
Religious services in the Corfu synagogue, filmed from various angles with many cuts. CUs of rabbi and Holocaust survivors praying, gathered at entrance. [picture in an out at times; sound is intact throughout]
FILM ID 3409 -- Camera Rolls #30-34A -- La synagogue, part 2 -- 04:00:07 to 04:05:31
Religious services in the Corfu synagogue, filmed from various angles with many cuts. Holocaust survivors praying, CUs of their tattoos. Rabbi leads the services. [picture in an out at times; sound is intact throughout]
FILM ID 3410 -- Camera Rolls #35,36B -- La synagogue -- 05:00:09 to 05:22:46
[CLIP 2 BEGINS] In the synagogue, Lanzmann speaks with survivors, including the rabbi, Mr. Mordu, Mr. Levi, Mr. Osmo, and others. He asks the rabbi (through an interpreter in Italian and Hebrew) if the survivors believe in God, if their faith was shaken because of Auschwitz. The rabbi says that Israel was God's miracle. 05:07:42 Levi joins the conversation. 05:08:20 CR36 Levi says that he did not believe in God after seeing the gassing with his own eyes from where he worked at the camp. The men say that the Jews of Corfu were faithful before the Holocaust and that Jewish life was strong (at times talking over one another). 05:14:57 CR36 A survivor talks (in Italian) about his experience in Buna when the Germans abandoned hospital patients eight days before the Russians liberated them in January 1945. 05:21:47 Picture cuts out. 05:22:12 CUs, tattooed numbers.
FILM ID 3411 -- Camera Rolls #46-50 -- Marco Osmo -- 06:00:09 to 06:04:57
Establishing shots of an alley in Corfu filled with workshops of silversmiths and woodcarvers. Camera follows a man (Marco Osmo?) pushing a wheelbarrow delivering supplies. Multiple takes of the delivery man walking in the alley with the wheelbarrow, passing spectators and shoppers. 06:03:40 The camera focuses on Samuel Levi, another craftsman and survivor. There is no interview.
FILM ID 3412 -- Camera Rolls #67-73A -- Samuel Levi -- 07:00:08 to 07:30:13
Establishing shots of an alley in Corfu filled with workshops of silversmiths and woodcarvers. CUs of a woman setting up her metal shop in the alley. 07:02:56 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] CR69 Samuel Levi explains to Lanzmann (in Italian) the photographs of Dachau and his family members which are posted in his workshop. Levy talks about the loss of his family and working in Dachau's crematorium. He explains the process of poisoning victims in the gas chambers, of becoming sick with the odor of hair that burned, and how the Germans used ashes in their cannons. 07:07:14 CR70 Levi describes the experiences of family members and the crematorium at Birkenau. 07:12:30 CR72 He says that the Greeks were forced by the Germans to steal Jewish property. 07:17:10 Lanzmann asks about a letter convincing the Greeks to take Jewish property posted in his workshop, and Levi says that he put it there for the Greeks to remember what happened. A younger man reads the letter. 07:19:47 Silent CUs of the photographs and letter posted in Levi's workshop. 07:27:28 Silent CUs of Lanzmann in Levi's workshop.
FILM ID 3413 -- Camera Rolls #76-79B -- Armando Aaron -- 08:00:08 to 08:27:50
In a different location, Aaron explains (in French) that many Jews arrived at the roundup because they were afraid the villagers would denounce them. Lanzmann is in the frame; Aaron is the only survivor interviewed on this tape. All Jews gathered - the women, the sick from the hospital, and the insane too - which frightened Aaron who feared for the life of the whole Jewish community. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Some civilian Greeks and Greek police assisted with the roundup. They were shut in an Old Venetian fort without food and water overnight for days. The Jews were then shipped by sea to Haidari, a camp near Athens, by way of several small ports. Many were terrified by the Gestapo guards. 08:11:20 CR77 Aaron reads the German declaration to the people of Corfu that justified the deportation, transferred commerce to the people of Corfu, and spread terror. 08:13:58 CR78 Aaron explains the dreadful boat trip and his escape to the mountains. He did not want to be killed before his parents. He reads the declaration again. 08:20:16 CR79 Aaron describes the proclamation and explains the extent of the plundering of Jewish property by the Greeks and the Germans that he observed upon return to Corfu in March 1945. Only 30 or 35 Jewish survivors live in Corfu today. 08:24:11 Sound ends, picture continues with silent shots of Lanzmann and Aaron talking. Greek flag in the BG of one shot. CUs of Lanzmann smoking.

Franz Grassler was assistant to Heinz Auerswald, the Nazi commissioner of the Warsaw ghetto. Lanzmann tries to get him to talk about the ghetto, but he claims that he remembers very little.. Lanzmann asks about Adam Czerniakow and his suicide, typhus, the black market, the ghetto wall, filming in the ghetto, and more. Grassler conveniently remembers things when he thinks they might be documented in Czerniakow's diaries.
FILM ID 3402 -- Camera Rolls #1,2,3 -- 00:01:24 to 00:27:52
CR 1 00:01:24 Franz Grassler sits on a red couch, presumably in his home. In response to a question from Lanzmann Grassler explains that Palais Bruehl was the headquarters of the Warsaw governor [Ludwig] Fischer. Grassler objects to Lanzmann's use of the term "Adjutant" to describe his own relationship to Heinz Auerswald (governor of the Warsaw ghetto); instead he calls himself an "Assessor." He explains how he came to be posted in Warsaw. He cannot remember exactly when he started to work for Auerswald but it was not when he first arrived. He began to work with Auerswald in approximately summer 1941. Lanzmann asks Grassler to describe Auerswald physically and psychologically. He says that Auerswald was a lawyer from Berlin who had a Polish or a Russian wife. Grassler and Auerswald worked together but did not share the same personal interests. Lanzmann asks Grassler how and when Auerswald died; Grassler says he doesn't know but then remembers that there were preliminary proceedings (Ermittlungsverfahren) against Auerswald and against Grassler, and Auerswald died in 1970, in the course of these proceedings. Lanzmann asks Grassler about his relationship with Adam Czerniakow. Grassler says that Czerniakow came often to the Palais Bruehl and preferred to deal with Grassler rather than Auerswald
CR 2 00:12:42 Lanzmann asks Grassler if he really can't remember much from the war. Grassler says he remembers touring in the mountains before the war much better and that it is a natural psychological phenomenon to remember good times better than bad times. Lanzmann says he will help him to remember and hands him a book: "The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow." Grassler looks at the photograph of Czerniakow in the book. He says again that Czerniakow preferred to deal with him instead of with Auerswald, perhaps because Auerswald was brusque whereas Grassler, as someone from Bavaria, was nicer to deal with. Lanzmann asks Grassler whether Czerniakow was afraid of him and Grassler says he was not. Czerniakow spoke German with him. Audio only between 00:16:20 and 00:16:50: Lanzmann says that the diary has just been published and that he is mentioned in an entry from July 7th, 1941. There is a cut in the film and then Lanzmann asks Grassler about [Abraham] Ganzweich, who was in charge of investigating the black market in the ghetto. The video cuts out again. Audio only while Lanzmann asks Grassler whether he visited the ghetto and Grassler says that he did so only a few times. The video returns after a cut in the middle of Grassler saying that the greatest danger in the ghetto was typhus. Two more cuts in the film before the end of the reel.
CR 3 00:18:59
Grassler says that neither he nor the people with whom he worked were aware of the extermination of the Jews. He says their job was to maintain the ghetto, not destroy it. Lanzmann points out that Auerswald was always asking that the size of the ghetto be reduced, despite the fact that so many people died every day. Audio only as Lanzmann asks Grassler if he knows how many died per day in the ghetto in 1941. After the cut Grassler says the ghetto was already in existence for some time by the time he himself came to Warsaw. Grassler challenges Lanzmann's assertion that the ghetto first came into existence in fall 1941. Lanzmann asks a "philosophical question:" in Grassler's opinion, what is the meaning of a ghetto? Grassler says that ghettos existed in history and that the Poles also persecuted the Jews. Audio only as he repeats that it was his duty to maintain the ghetto. Video returns (after the cut) at 00:24:13. Grassler says that he and his colleagues always tried to raise the ration limit in the ghetto. He agrees with Lanzmann that Czerniakow was always asking for greater rations but they had no power [to grant them]. Lanzmann assures Grassler that he is not interested in his actions. Grassler says that neither he nor Auerswald could change German policy. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that Auerswald did not like the Jews but says that didn't mean he wanted to destroy them. Lanzmann points out that the Jews were destroyed every day in the ghetto through various methods, including shooting. Grassler blames this on the SS. Lanzmann asks Grassler what he thought when he visited the ghetto. Grassler says he asked to be transferred from Warsaw because the conditions in the ghetto were so awful and disturbing to him. The last few seconds contain audio and no video.
FILM ID 3403 -- Camera Rolls #4, 5, 6 -- 02:00:04 to 02:32:17
CR 4 02:00:04 Lanzmann asks Grassler about the Aktion during which the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were forced to surrender their fur coats in the bitterly cold winter of 1941-1942. Grassler says that the Germans too were required to give up their furs for the Wehrmacht. Lanzmann asks Grassler about Czerniakow's proposal [to Auerswald] that, in exchange for the furs, the Germans should release prisoners from the jail. He points out a reference to Grassler in Czerniakow's diary, from January 30th, 1942, regarding the surrender of the fur; Lanzmann's interpreter translates the diary entry for Grassler. Lanzmann says there were many who died because it was so cold and their coats had been confiscated. Therefore his question is whether this was not destruction, rather than maintaining [of the Jews and the ghetto]. Grassler says again that destruction was not the duty of his office, but they had to follow orders. Lanzmann asks Grassler if he was an antisemite. Grassler says he wasn't, and in fact he often read books by Jewish authors. Lanzmann asks him if he remembers instances of cannibalism in the ghetto. After a pause Grassler says that perhaps Czerniakow mentioned something of the kind. Lanzmann tells him that Czerniakow wrote of telling Grassler of a case where a woman ate a piece of her dead child. Lanzmann asks Grassler if he remembers Auerswald's trip to Berlin on January 19, 1942. He points out that Auerswald was in Berlin during the Wannsee conference, although he was not at the conference itself.
CR 5 02:11:28 Lanzmann asks Grassler whether he remembers Czerniakow's suicide and Grassler says yes, because that was the reason he finally asked to be transferred from Warsaw. The transfer was refused by Fischer so Grassler went on vacation to Munich and refused to return. Lanzmann asks him whether he remembers the great deportations from the ghetto in September 1942. Audio but no image as Lanzmann asks Grassler to speculate on the reason for Czerniakow's suicide. Grassler asks Lanzmann if Czerniakow announced his intention to commit suicide in the diary. Lanzmann says no, he killed himself after Globocnik ordered that the children be deported to Treblinka. Grassler claims that he and his colleagues thought that Treblinka was a labor camp where prisoners received better treatment than they did in the ghetto. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that Auerswald was aware that the ghetto was coming to an end. Lanzmann asserts that Grassler knew what Treblinka was, which Grassler disputes. Lanzmann says the Poles all knew: how could Grassler be the only person in his circle who didn't know? Grassler says that he thinks the Jews knew more than some of the Germans did. He found out later that there were Jews who had been sentenced to death and were sent to Treblinka for execution, but denies that he knew Treblinka was an extermination camp. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Grassler says there should have been no executions in the ghetto after the early period, but they may have occurred. Lanzmann says there were many executions in the prison, carried out by Polish police. They discuss whether the Jewish police were armed; Grassler says of course they could not have been armed with firearms. Grassler says that he himself was not armed when he went into the ghetto: he had nothing to fear.
CR 6 02:20:42 Lanzmann asks whether Grassler knew Hans Galuba (?), who worked for Auerswald. He then asks if he remembers that it was his idea to require the Jews to wear armbands as they did in Berlin. Lanzmann indicates that Czerniakow wrote about this in his diary. Grassler says perhaps he carried out the order but it was certainly not his idea. He says that in Berlin the Jews wore yellow stars. He does not remember where on their clothing the Jews wore markings in the Warsaw ghetto. There is some confusion about whether Lanzmann is referring to armbands or stars worn on the breasts of clothing. In the May 28th, 1942 entry in "The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow," Czerniakow writes that Grassler asked him what he thought about a proposal that the Jews of Warsaw wear Star of David badges like those in Germany. [Start here w/pick for website -- 02:32:00.] In answer to a question from Lanzmann Grassler says that he kept a diary, more of a calendar, but it was burned in Munich. Lanzmann asks Grassler whether he remembers the cameramen from the Propaganda Kompanie filming in the ghetto. Lanzmann can't believe that he doesn't remember anything and Grassler says he has repressed these memories because it was an awful time. When Lanzmann says it was a bad time in retrospect but not at the time, Grassler contradicts him and says again that he volunteered for the front rather than remain in Warsaw. Lanzmann asks him whether he thinks that the wall was a security measure against the spread of typhus, and points out that in Nazi ideology the Jews and typhus and the plague were one and the same. Grassler says that perhaps Streicher or Rosenberg thought this way, but the normal German and even the normal party member did not believe this. He says that most people in the Nazi party were not antisemitic. Lanzmann asks who then killed the Jews, and Grassler says it was the SS and a minority of ideologically committed party members. He himself joined the party because of the Versailles Treaty and Germany's defeat in World War I. Audio but no video for the last few seconds of the reel.
FILM ID 3404 -- Camera Rolls #7,8,9 -- 03:00:04 to 03:29:41
CR 7 03:00:04 Lanzmann says that there was anxiety in the ghetto after the extermination of the Jews of Lublin and Lvov in March 1942. Grassler says again that the Jews knew more than the Germans, which Lanzmann again finds astounding. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that the Jews were deceived by the Germans but claims that he and his colleagues were also deceived. Lanzmann says that the Jews were made to pay for the ghetto wall and the pedestrian bridge. Grassler objects when Lanzmann says that Auerswald thought the Jews had too much room in the ghetto. He says that Auerswald must have received orders to continually reduce the living space available to the Jews. Lanzmann asks him why he stayed a year in Warsaw if he didn't like Auerswald and he didn't like the work he was doing. Grassler says that he was a soldier following orders. Lanzmann asks whether he thought the Jews were human or subhuman and what he thought about their treatment at the hands of the Germans. He asks whether Grassler's relationship with Czerniakow was as friendly as between the two of them (Lanzmann and Grassler). Grassler says he tried to help Czerniakow but did not accomplish much. Lanzmann's interpreter reads a passage from the diary in which Czerniakow records Auerswald complaining that Jews stood too near to him when they talked to him. Grassler says again that he himself always greeted Czerniakow with a handshake.
CR 8 03:11:20 Grassler and Lanzmann discuss the black market in the ghetto. Grassler says he does not remember specifically but he is sure that there was one, as there is everywhere need exists. Lanzmann points out that children were active in the black market. They discuss cabaret and other cultural life in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks Grassler which people died first in the ghetto, and if he remembers when the intelligentsia began to die. Lanzmann mentions a certain "night action" (led by [Karl-Georg] Brandt and [Gerhard] Mende) during which 50 people were seized from a cabaret and executed. Grassler says that the civil administration was powerless to prevent such killing by the SS. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Grassler says that the religious Jews would have appeared strange to him. Lanzmann asks Grassler how he could explain the behavior of SS men who shaved the beards of religious Jews, to which Grassler replies that perhaps it was a hygienic measure against lice. Lanzmann asks whether he was afraid of lice when Czerniakow was in his office, or when he "went for a walk" in the ghetto, and Grassler reiterates that he was very seldom in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks him if he saw corpses in the street. Lanzmann says that perhaps the final solution was the only solution to such conditions and Grassler replies that in his opinion neither the conditions nor the final solution should have happened. Lanzmann says his theory is that given the deplorable conditions it was easier to kill the Jews than to save them. Grassler takes issue with Lanzmann using the term "the Germans" to refer to the perpetrators of the final solution, saying it was not the Germans but rather the small circle that held power. Grassler says he feels a collective guilt but he does not feel personally guilty. Lanzmann asks him if he feels guiltier than a German citizen who was not in Warsaw.
CR 9 03:22:45 Grassler repeats that the Jews were contained in the ghetto to prevent the spread of typhus. Lanzmann asks him whether he actually believed there was a connection between the Eastern Jews (but not the German) and typhus and he says he did believe it. Lanzmann asks him what measures does one take against typhus, then goes on to say that one kills the lice, just as one killed the Jews. Audio but no video from 03:27:11 to 03:27:58 as they discuss the so-called self-administration of the ghetto. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that the air in the ghetto was very bad. Lanzmann says that he doesn't understand how Grassler loved to read poems by Heine but at the same time "deloused" the Jews. Grassler says one thing he chose to do and the other he was forced to do.
FILM ID 3405 -- Camera Rolls #10,19 -- 04:00:04 to 04:08:55
Mute CUs of Grassler and then Lanzmann speaking and listening. Grassler looks at a book, presumably "The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow" at 04:03:24. CUs of Lanzmann begin at 04:05:13.

Several former Jewish policemen from Riga, Latvia describe the division of the ghetto into sections for Latvian Jews and German Jews, dealing with the Nazi discovery of a secret weapons cache, and responsibilities as Jewish police. Lanzmann raises the question of collaboration and acknowledges the survivors’ openness as they talk at a conference in New York in 1978. The material also contains a short interview with veteran frontline soldier, Friedrich Baer.
FILM ID 3400 -- Camera Roll #65 -- 01:00:00 to 01:11:33
NY65 Lanzmann interviews three survivors of the Riga ghetto. The first man on right describes how the ghetto was partitioned into two sections: one for the German Jews, one for the Latvian Jews. The three interviewees resided in the German section. Each side had a police force comprised of its own residents. The man recounts that one day he was called to a meeting by the German authorities. This was already well into their time of captivity in the ghetto: they had arrived in January of 1941, and the meeting took place at some point during 1942. He, along with other young, strong German Jewish men, had been designated to police the Latvian section of the ghetto. As it turns out, several Latvian Jews had escaped; their police were blamed and executed for the incident. The three men go on to relate their experiences as policemen. They had little real authority, carried no weapons, and, it seems, mainly served to assist the SS in "keeping order" and cleaning up after executions, which they were forced to attend. The audio continues for a few seconds after the video ends.
FILM ID 3401 -- Camera Roll #66 -- 01:11:34 to 01:22:49
NY66 The same three men continue to describe their experiences as Jewish policemen in the ghetto. One recounts how he was sent to investigate a hidden weapons cache which had been smuggled, piece by piece, into the Latvian side of the ghetto. The weapons were brought out by German soldiers and the Latvian side of the ghetto was closed. Lanzmann comments on the survivors' willingness to talk: survivors who had served as policemen in other ghettos, such as Lodz, refused to talk about their involvement. These men from Riga, however, claim to have had a different experience: whereas police from other ghettos may or may not have been seen as collaborators by fellow Jews, these police from Riga had no choice in the matter. They were told to serve and could not refuse. Moreover, they actively used their unique position to help their comrades, whether that had been by alerting them to searches conducted by the SS or security, turning a blind eye to allow Latvian Jews into the German section, smuggling people into jail to pay visits to family members, etc. Thus, others may have been less inclined to see them as collaborators deserving of condemnation; neither do these men view themselves as such.
FILM ID 3666 - New York 175 (NY 68) Baer
Fred Baer was a German Jew who fought at the front during WWI. After the war he worked in a department store in Gelsenkirchen until 1939 when he was sent to Oranienburg concentration camp. After a month at the camp he was released, and subsequently immigrated to Panama.

Interviews with Polish inhabitants of Grabow, a village located 19 km from the Chelmno extermination camp. Prior to the war, Jews had accounted for over half the population of Grabow. In 1942, all of the approximately 4,000 Jews of Grabow were rounded up, locked in the town's Catholic church, and then transported to Chelmno. In these outtakes, Lanzmann reads a letter written by the rabbi of Grabow in January 1942, detailing the horrors that awaited his people. He conducts short interviews with town residents about their memories of that time, and the outtakes also contain mute shots of town buildings including the church and the synagogue, now a furniture warehouse, as well as of post-war daily life in Grabow.
FILM ID 3386 -- CR# CH 18,19,21,90 Maisons Grabow part 1 -- 01:00:08 to 01:17:55 (Typo on video transfer slate. This tape includes Roll 90 not Roll 20.)
Lanzmann interviews an elderly woman on her doorstep. The home was previously owned by Jews who had a butcher shop. The sound and picture cut out and then return later in the interview several times. As Lanzmann asks questions about her witnessing of the events of 1942, the woman changes her story and insists she does not know what happened to the Jews. Lanzmann then interviews a man who says he was friends with many Jews as a child, and 'speaks Jewish,' though he can produce no Yiddish. The man recollects on his memories of wartime-- he provided food to German soldiers, and therefore had a special permit which allowed him freer mobility. He remembers seeing Jews being loaded into trucks for transport to Chelmno, and tells of one Jew who collected others' gold and gave it to the Germans. The man tells of having gone to Chelmno three days after its closure, and seeing human bones, gold teeth, and ashes scattered everywhere. Two women standing on the stoop with the gentleman being interviewed remember the perceived beauty of Jewish women prior to the war, as well as the remarkable power they felt Jews had in society. Some cuts taken from this roll CH 19, CH 21, and CH 90 and used in the final film.
FILM ID 3387 -- CR# CH 18,19,21,90 Maisons Grabow part 2 -- 02:00:08 to 02:01:04 (Typo on video transfer slate. This tape includes Roll 90 not Roll 20.)
Various shots of interviewees in Grabow, standing in front of their homes, matching scenes in CH 19 and CH 90. The only sound is that of the cameraman.
TAPE 3388 -- CR# CH 1-6 Grabow Moulin (White 24) part 1 -- 03:00:08 to 03:12:09
03:00:03 Audio cuts in and out; shots of men with horse-drawn carts on the road next to Grabow's mill. 03:01:27 Lanzmann asks a man questions while he loads his cart in front of the mill. He asks who owns the mill, and the man replies that it is state-owned, but that before the war it was owned by a man who is now dead. Lanzmann asks whether the man knows what happened at Chelmno, and he replies that of course he does, but that he was in Germany during the war. Lanzmann asks others of the group of men who have gathered around what they know about Chelmno. One says that they knew what was happening, but that they were not allowed inside. When he would pass the camp, he could see how they transported Jews there. 03:03:36 Interview with one of the mill workers from a different angle-- horse carts are visible in the background, and the camera is zoomed in on the gentleman's face. He explains that before the war, Jews made up a majority of the population of Grabow. They were transported to Chelmno in horse-drawn carts. There was a ghetto in Grabow, even though it is a small town. Every small town had two or three streets that were closed off, where Jews lived and were monitored. He explains that Jews were rounded up and shut inside the church, and were then transported to Chelmno. There, the Jews were 'burnt naked.' As the gentleman talks, the camera pans to the street, where a group of people has gathered to watch the interview taking place. Lanzmann asks the man whether he remembers the town's rabbi, and whether the mill belonged to a Jew. He replies that no, it belonged to a German before and during the war. Jews were generally tanners, tailors, merchants, etc. Lanzmann asks whether there were religious Jews living in Grabow before the war, 'with beards.' The man replies that there were. 03:09:43-03:12:05 The picture cuts in and out, audio continues. The man tries to answer Lanzmann's question of whether he is upset that the Jews are gone. He says that 'it is impossible to say.' He says that the Jews were not trustworthy. He is upset, however, that the Jews were gassed.
FILM ID 3389 -- CR# CH 1-6 Grabow Moulin (White 24) part 2 -- 04:00:08 to 04:02:50
The atmosphere of Grabow. 03:59:54 Shots of horse-drawn carts lined up along the road, waiting to reach Grabow's mill. 04:01:14 Shaky picture of one of the mill's brick walls. Lanzmann asks a man (whom he later interviews more formally) whether he is from Grabow and whether he was there during the war. The man unloads sacks from his cart while he replies to Lanzmann, and Lanzmann tells him that he wants to speak with him more, once he deposits his sacks inside the mill. Brief shots of Lanzmann and his translator, Barbara.
FILM ID 3390 -- Grabow Village No. 30 (White 25) -- 05:00:08 to 05:20:20
Sound in and out on entire reel. A crowd of onlookers watches as Lanzmann and his crew interview several residents in quick succession. Children laugh as one rowdy (drunk) man goofs off for the camera, and later interrupts an interview, scaring Lanzmann's interviewee away from the camera. Lanzmann asks them each to recollect on wartime in Grabow, and one man genuinely still does not know how the Jews were killed in Chelmno, just 19 km away.
FILM ID 3391 -- Grabow Le Village (White 26) -- 06:00:08 to 06:30:21
Various scenes of daily life in Grabow during different seasons. Audio and picture both cut in and out periodically. No interviews. 05:59:47 Road sign denoting Grabow, with a cow on the road next to it. People walking up and down a sidewalk on a busy residential street. Rows of houses in Grabow. A horse-drawn cart rolls down the road toward the camera. The postman makes deliveries on a motorbike. A woman stands in the doorway of her home, while traffic passes in the street in front of her. Three men sit outside of a store. An elderly woman stares out at the camera from an upstairs windows. Various building exteriors in Grabow. The town square with a statue of the Virgin Mary. Construction workers stand in a second-floor window of a building project. Horse-drawn carts lined up in the road on a winter's day. Street scenes, taken from a moving car. Facade of the town church. Rows of houses on tree-lined streets in spring.
FILM ID 3392 -- Grabow Synagogue (White 27) -- 07:00:08 to 07:18:14
06:59:43 Lanzmann stands in front of Grabow's synagogue, and reads a letter written on January 19, 1942 by its rabbi, HaRav Yaacov Sylman, to friends in Lodz. The letter warns his friends of the horrors transpiring at Chelmno, and urges them to believe what he has written. He writes, "I am so weary that my pen can write no more. Creator of the universe, come to our aid." Lanzmann adds that the Jews of Grabow were transported to Chelmno and killed just a few weeks later. 07:01:30 CU of Lanzmann's face. Lanzmann reads the same letter twice more. 07:04:52 No sound, various shots of the synagogue exterior, the sign above the door reads 'meble' [furniture], now a furniture factory. 07:12:14 No sound, the church exterior, and the view from the church of the synagogue down the street. 07:15:25 More exterior shots of the synagogue, including some with sound (background street noise).
FILM ID 3393 -- Grabow Le Marche (White 28) -- 08:00:08 to 08:12:52
No sound, scenes of daily life in Grabow, including an open-air market, picture cuts out briefly. Grabow citizens frequent the market, engage in conversation, drive carts around the town center. Piles of wicker furniture, baskets, brooms for sale. CUs of individual market-goers. 08:09:02 Sound reel cuts in, a man and child drive their cart (loaded with a pig) down the road away from the camera. A horse and cart roll past a modest home.
FILM ID 3394 -- Grabow La Paille (White 29) -- 09:00:08 to 09:05:17
A man drives a cart laden with hay out of his field and down a road. Sound reel cuts out, a woman walks through the field with a child. The hay wagon moves slowly away from the camera through fields.
FILM ID 3395 -- Repiquage Denteile eglise Grabow -- 10:00:38 to 10:08:57
No picture, sound only -- indiscernible snippets of interviews as well as background noise.

Shmuel Tamir represented the defendant in the Kasztner libel trial in Israel He speaks passionately about the virtues of Rabbi Weissmandel and the perfidy of Rudolf Kasztner.
FILM ID 3396 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:05 to 01:33:41
CR 1 01:00:05 - 01:11:16
Shmuel Tamir sits at a wooden table in front of a striped curtain with several books on the table in front of him. Lanzmann says that one of the main protagonists of his film is Rabbi Weissmandel. He asks Tamir to explain how he met Weissmandel and what his impressions were. Tamir says that in the course of the Kasztner trial he came across a heartbreaking document (he thinks he obtained it from Joel Brand) that turned out to have been written by Weissmandel, in which he accused the Jews who were not living in Europe of ignoring what was happening there. Tamir was impressed with the document and found out more about Weissmandel: that he had escaped a train heading toward Auschwitz, leaving his wife and family on the train, and that he had eventually established a Yeshiva in Mount Kisco, NY. Tamir wanted to meet Weissmandel, and did so in January 1956, in Mount Kisco. Weissmandel knew that Tamir was there seeking information to use in the Kasztner trial but he didn't want to cooperate because of his opposition to Zionism. Eventually Tamir became more aggressive in his demands for information and Weissmandel began to open up, although he refused outright to go to Jerusalem.
CR 2 01:11:21 - 01:22:27
Tamir is now looking at a book as he sits at the table. There is a brief shot of Lanzmann standing next to him and looking over his shoulder. Lanzmann's voice, off camera, instructs Tamir not to look at the camera but instead to look at the book until he tells him to start speaking. Weissmandel showed Tamir several letters and other documents that he had sent from Slovakia to the Allied nations during the war. Tamir says that these documents contained facts and "atmosphere" that, taken together, were extremely important as testimony. Weissmandel refused to let Tamir take the documents to use in Israel. Tamir greatly admired Weissmandel, although they were from different worlds. Another rabbi gave Tamir copies of the documents three hours before he was to return to Israel. Tamir reads, from the book in front of him, Weissmandel's accusation against those who did not help during the deportation of the Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz and his demand that the rail lines to Auschwitz be bombed. Tamir says that Weissmandel later gave him some tips about how to conduct the trial (the Kasztner trial was over but had been appealed).
CR 3 01:22:33 - 01:33:41
Lanzmann asks Tamir if he and Weissmandel discussed Kasztner specifically. Tamir says that Weissmandel was critical of Kasztner, even though he was taken to the Swiss border with Kasztner and Hermann Krumey, Eichmann's deputy. Tamir further states that this trip was taken in order to save Krumey. Tamir is of the opinion that Kasztner became enthralled with the power he held as a collaborator with the Nazis. He says that he suggested at the trial the Kasztner's "soul was burned at Auschwitz." Weissmandel told Tamir that Kasztner's reason for "collaborating" was money. Lanzmann clarifies that he is asking about Weissmandel's opinion of Kasztner because Weissmandel was the first one in Slovakia to use money to try and bribe the Germans, and he advised Kasztner and the others in the Aid and Rescue Committee (Vaada). Tamir says that of course Weissmandel believed in using money to save Jews, and that he himself does not believe that one can sit safely in the present moment and judge those who were operating in "the depths of hell", but that in the wide spectrum of behavior between the resistance movements and full-fledged collaboration, Kasztner crossed the line. He says he would be very hesitant to judge, for example, members of various Judenrats, but that by 1945 Kasztner had become "an integral part of the last remnants of the loyal SS."
FILM ID 3397 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:05 to 02:33:31
CR 4 02:00:05 - 02:11:14
Tamir continues talking about Kasztner, saying that Kasztner was not a member of a Judenrat, and that the Kasztner affair was a unique case. Tamir points out that Kasztner made a statement on behalf of [Kurt] Becher after the war, and tried to help Krumey and Dieter Wisliceny. Tamir says that Kasztner became somehow identified with the SS and that his identity became twisted. Lanzmann reads a couple of quotations from Kasztner's writing. Tamir says that Kasztner should have warned the Jews of their fate. Lanzmann begins to tell Tamir that those who defend Kasztner say that he tried to warn people by sending members of the Halutzim youth movement into the ghettos.
CR 5 02:11:17 - 02:22:23
Lanzmann repeats his statement about the Halutzim being sent into the ghettos, and says that Kasztner's defenders also say that warning people was pointless because they would not have wanted to believe what was happening. Tamir says that these two arguments are contradictory, and that it was in the interests of the privileged, including Kasztner, not to warn the masses, so that the privileged few would be saved. He describes this as the "satanic gimmick of Eichmann, with which Kasztner collaborated." Tamir says there were all sorts of rumors about how close the relationship was between Kasztner and the SS leaders with whom he associated at the very end of the war. Lanzmann says that Kasztner selected mostly Zionists to be saved from Kolozsvar (Cluj) but Tamir disagrees with him and says that he selected leaders, among whom were Zionists, religious Jews, and others.
CR 6 02:22:28 - 02:33:31
CU on Tamir's face as he listens intently to Lanzmann's question about whether since it was impossible to save everyone, wasn't it natural for Kasztner to choose to save members of his family and those who were part of his circle, including Zionists. Lanzmann says further that Zionists saw themselves as the redeemers of the Jews, and so it would be natural to want to save those who could redeem. Tamir says that he says of course it was natural for Kasztner to want to save his family, but not at the price of collaboration. He says further that he disagreed strongly with Kasztner's lawyer when he said that those who were murdered had no spirit left and compared them to the masses in Warsaw. Tamir says that in his opinion, and here he disagreed with Weissmandel, Zionism was never meant to save the few at the price of the many.
FILM ID 3398 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 03:00:05 to 03:20:10
CR 7 03:00:05 - 03:11:19
Tamir continues talking about Zionism and says that the Kasztner case is antithetical to Zionist activitiy. Lanzmann says that Chaim Cohen's (Kaztner's lawyer) attitude was not unique, and quotes Yitzhak Gruenbaum, head of the rescue committee in Palestine, as saying that the choice was to use money to rescue European Jews or to buy cows for the people of Palestine, he would choose the cow. Tamir says he doesn't think this quote is accurate but says he disagrees with this attitude. He says that the rest of the world acquiesced in the murder of the Jews, and that England and the US cooperated indirectly with the Germans by refusing to bomb the Auschwitz crematoria. Lanzmann asks Tamir what he remembers of this time. Tamir mentions the sinking of the Struma, a direct result of British policy, which was one of the things that drove him to take up the fight against the British.
CR 8 03:11:33 - 03:20:10 Quick shot of Lanzmann before the camera pans back over to Tamir. Tamir says that paradoxically and tragically, the British, who fought the Nazis, also prevented the Jews from being saved. Lanzmann asks him whether he and others felt helpless to save the Jews of Europe, and Tamir mentions some rescue attempts that were made. He says that not everyone was made aware of what was going on, and that this was a mistake. He also says that the Jewish mistakes pale in comparison to the mistakes made by those in the rest of the world. Tamir says that he saw nothing wrong with trying to save Jews with money or any other means, and that Weissmandel never came close to crossing the line that Kasztner crossed. Weissmandel asked that leaflets be dropped on Hungary to inform the Jews that they were doomed, in contrast to Kasztner's attempts to keep the extermination quiet. He repeats that Kasztner's soul was burned in Auschwitz. He gathers up his books and remains seated for several seconds.
FILM ID 3399 -- Camera Rolls #8A,8B,9A,9B -- 04:00:00 to 04:05:43
Claude Lanzmann seated at a table, taking notes and listening to Tamir. He lights a cigarette, nods his head, and speaks occasionally (no sound).

Henryk Gawkowski was a locomotive conductor at the Treblinka station and estimates that he transported approximately 18,000 Jews to the camp. He drank vodka all the time because it was the only way to make bearable his job and the smell of burning corpses. He describes the black market and the prostitution that developed around the camp. This interview also includes conversations with several other Polish witnesses who were railway workers.
FILM ID 3362 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 01:00:00 to 01:13:26
Gawkowski and a Polish choir sing "W mogile ciemnej ?pij na wieki," a Gregorian-chant style funeral march written by Aleksander Orlowski, in a church accompanied by an organ. A rough translation of the Polish lyrics are:
Verse 1
In the dark grave, sleep forever
And we have to say goodbye to you shedding tears, shedding tears!
Because you've headed to a far off land,
Your remaining brothers are sending off prayers!
Refrain:
For a brief time say goodbye to us
For in fact God will beckon us there
For a brief time say goodbye to us
For in fact God will beckon us there
Verse 2:
To God's throne we send prayers for you
That eternal peace He may give you
And that you have covered our hearts with grief
Is testified to by our tears, oh, by these tears.
FILM ID 3363 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 02:00:00 to 02:31:52
CR8 Gawkowski explains his job as an assistant machinist/conductor on the locomotive. He went to Treblinka three times a week. Initially he transported gravel, after the creation of Treblinka he transported Jews. He tells how he would push the rail cars into the camp. He transported Jews from many different cities (talks of Bialystok and Warsaw).
02:10:49 CR9 Gawkowski describes the loading of the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto onto the trains (not the Umschlagsplatz). He personally drove approximately 15-20 convoys, with 60 cars per convoy, 120-200 people per car, with an estimated total of 18,000 people, into Treblinka. It was required that German Gestapo accompany each transport. He says he transported Jews from France, Greece, Holland and Yugoslavia into the camp; his first transport was of Greek Jews.
02:22:05 CR10 Gawkowski talks about the first transport he drove, a convoy of Greek Jews. He recalls that it was passenger train, not a cargo train, and that they were accompanied by the German police, not the Gestapo. He knew what their fate was going to be, so while passing part of the train, he made a gesture (of slicing the neck) to let them know. They understood and it caused an uproar on the train. People started trying to get off the train and flee, they threw their children. Some might have escaped. Gawkowski maintains that foreign Jews were usually transported in passenger cars, while the Polish Jews arrived in commodity cars. He describes the scene of a foreign Jew who had stepped off of the train to buy something, trying to catch the train as it pulled away. Polish railworkers told him what he was running towards and he escaped. 02:31:22 Picture cuts out a few times.
FILM ID 3364 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 03:00:00 to 03:22:03
CR11 Lanzmann asks Gawkowski where he lived during this period. He lived in Malkinia, in the same house they are sitting in. Lanzmann gets cut off asking his next question.
03:01:05 CR12 Gawkowski explains the process of how he would transport Jews. He lived in Malkinia, he would receive an order/itinerary to transport regular goods (i.e. ammunition, fuel) to the East; he would then receive another order with fake numbers to transport 'goods' back, only this time the goods were Jews. He didn't know beforehand what he would be transporting, but he knew what the special trains (Sonderzug) held. He witnessed the loading of a convoy in Bialystok from a distance, how they packed them in and beat them.
03:11:22 CR13 Lanzmann asks how Gawkowski how he felt while taking a convoy of Jews to their deaths, how he was able to deal with it. Gawkowski says that it was very difficult, but that the Germans would give them alcohol. He explains how he would drink it all because being drunk was the only way to make it bearable, to help with the smell. He goes on to describe the smell. The Gestapo rode the trains with their guns pointed at them; his only thought was to arrive at Treblinka. Gawkowski explains how those that drove the deportees would receive a special bonus, paid in alcohol, typically vodka. He tells that they would go slow, to give people the possibility of escape; they would make excuses for going slow (i.e. mechanical problems). He could hear the Jews in the cars behind him, they usually were crying for water. Picture cuts out at 03:16:25 to 03:16:31
FILM ID 3365 -- Camera Rolls #14-16 -- 04:00:00 to 04:22:25
CR14 Lanzmann brings up survivors' accounts that the convoys of Jews always traveled very slowly, that other convoys (i.e. military, passenger, etc) always took precedence, forcing the Jewish convoys to wait on sidetracks. Gawkowski says that was rare, but it did happen when the Russians started to counter-attack. They discuss the distances between Bialystok, Warsaw and Treblinka. Gawkowski tells how difficult it was for him to drive the convoys, but that it was impossible to refuse, because that meant death. His cousin was sent to Treblinka for not going to work. Lanzmann asks how many Polish train operators there were. Tape stops in mid-question.
04:06:15 CR15 Gawkowski is not sure how many Poles had to participate in the transports, there were several groups of them and they all had to. There was a schedule of trains, but often there were unscheduled or unexpected trains that operated outside their normal hours. These were 'ghost' trains because they didn't exist. The train operators would be summoned at a given time and then be forced to wait for eleven hours at the depot, as a 'reserve' in case of these trains. Military trains also operated outside their normal hours. He also drove regular passenger trains during this time, they also ran through the Treblinka train station.
04:11:12 CR16 Lanzmann and Gawkowski discuss the proximity between regular passenger trains and convoys carrying Jews at the Treblinka train station. The Jewish convoys waited on a separate side track, close enough that the other passengers could see what was going on. Gawkowski says that everyone in the area knew what was going on, what was happening to the Jews. He talks of the smell again, the horrible smell of dead bodies decomposing. Even in Malkinia, when the wind blew, one could smell it. It was especially bad in the morning and evening, when there was dew. He says the only way they were able to live with the smell was to drink, it was necessary. Picture cuts out at 04:22:20, sound a few seconds later.
FILM ID 3366 -- Camera Rolls #17,18 -- 05:00:00 to 05:22:30
CR17 Gawkowski was 20-21 years old at the time; this is why he remembers everything so well. Sound cuts in and out between 05:03:25 and 05:03:38. He vividly remembers the first transport of Greek Jews. Picture cuts out 05:05:49 to 05:06:11. He drove transports two to three times per week, for a year and a half-basically the entire time the camp was in existence. He explains how the convoys would be divided into thirds because the entire train wouldn't fit into the camp. The remaining cars waited at the Treblinka station; he would push the divided convoy into the camp. That was the worst for him, because he knew it was the end for the Jews on the train. Lanzmann briefly asks about the type of locomotives used.
05:11:00 CR18 Lanzmann asks if he has nightmares. Gawkowski replies that he does, he's relived the experience more than once. He tells Lanzmann that he sees the train cars in front of him, pushing them into the camp. When the cars opened, it was Jews, not Germans who dealt with the arriving Jews. He could see the inside of the camp, but he wasn't sure exactly where the gas chambers were, however he knew they were close. He saw Stangen, the camp commandant, amongst other SS officers. He spoke with some of the Ukrainians, they would give him wads of money in exchange for vodka, chocolate and liquor. He would lose it gambling. They discuss the amount of money and the currency used, along with where it came from. Picture cuts out at 05:22:07, sound a few seconds later.
FILM ID 3367 -- Camera Rolls #19-21 -- 06:00:00 to 06:30:20
CR19 Lanzmann and Gawkowski discuss the trafficking that was going on between locals, outsiders from Warsaw and the Ukrainians in the camp. Mrs. Gawkowski also trafficked goods on the Russian/German border. They discuss the prostitutes that came because of the camp, where they stayed and if any are still living in the area. Lanzmann wants to know more about the gold that was used as currency by the Ukrainians. Gawkowski knew that people had gold teeth and that after liberation locals around the camp dug up the ground and found gold. They go back to discussing the prostitutes and their fate. Gawkowski believes they all left; after the war some were convicted by army courts and executed. Lanzmann wants to know if people discussed the fate of the Jews. Gawkowski says they did, amongst themselves. The priest also gave his opinion on it. Picture cuts out last few seconds.
06:11:23 CR20 Lanzmann asks Gawkowski what the Jews could have done to stop what was happening to them. Gawkowski thinks that maybe if contact between the camp and the Polish resistance had been closer, something could have been done. He also mentions the revolt that took place in Treblinka. Lanzmann asks him if he knew any Jews prior to the war, he tells of a few that he went to primary school with. Gawkowski tries to explain what happened to the Jews in his town and surrounding area; most escaped over the Russian border, those that stayed were placed in ghettos and soon killed.
06:22:32 CR21 Lanzmann tries to ask Gawkowski what fault he thinks the 6 million murdered Jews atoned for, Gawkowski believes they were innocent, that the fault lies with the government. Lanzmann then asks about the presence of Polish antisemitism before the war, Gawkowski doesn't think it existed where he lived. He goes on to talk about the Jewish population, their religious/holiday observances, the synagogue, the visit of a great rabbi and their interaction with Catholics. End of interview.
FILM ID 3743 -- Treblinka 18 -- TR 22-25 (audio only)
Interview begins at 00:01:00, beginning of TR 23. Lanzmann, his translator Barbara, and Gawkowski walk along the railroad tracks upon which Gawkowski once conducted trains to Treblinka. Lanzmann asks Gawkowski to point out which tracks existed during the occupation and which have been built since. Gawkowski explains that the train station is exactly the same as it was during the war, besides the new switch system. 00:02:40 The interview becomes difficult to hear as the microphone is distanced from the conversation. 00:02:55 End of TR 23
00:03:15 TR 24 Lanzmann and Gawkowski continue to discuss the changes to the track system as they walk; very little has changed since the war. Gawkowski explains that four of the five platforms of the Treblinka station existed at the time, and that trains destined for the camp would stop at all but the main platform before arriving at the camp, because the platform at the camp itself could only accommodate 20 train cars at a time.
00:06:25 TR 25 Gawkowski and several other train conductors debate whether one of the train platforms existed during the war; all of the men talk over each other and it is difficult to understand what is going on; one man points out where they used to risk their lives to give water to Jews on the trains; several of the men in the group, including Gawkowski's brother-in-law, conducted trains during the war; they describe the arrival of transports of Jews to the Treblinka station. One man explains that his brother and sister were killed by Nazis; he describes watching Jews jump out of the train windows; he watched a woman and her infant jump from the train, and a German shoot her in the chest; the man becomes emotional and struggles to continue to tell the story; he explains that after the Jews, the Poles would have been next to be exterminated.
FILM ID 3744 -- Treblinka 19 -- TR26-30 (audio only)
00:00:26 TR 26. Continuation of an interview with Gawkowski and several other train conductors, on the train tracks near the Treblinka station; Lanzmann asks them to point out the location of the track turnoff toward the Treblinka camp, and they explain that it no longer exists but that it was several meters from them, beyond a semaphore signal post; one gentleman explains that next to the extermination camp there was a work camp, a gravel pit where Poles who would not give their products to the Nazis were forced to work and where they were so exhausted that they would die standing up; some words are spoken in German; Lanzmann asks the men whether they remember the smell of Treblinka; they reply that in the evening, the smell was so bad that for two years, they did not eat dinner, and the wind carried for several kilometers 00:06:38 End of TR 26. TR 27, 28, 29 are background noise around the train station
00:09:11 TR 30 Lanzmann asks the men why Ukrainian workers at Treblinka were known to sing; one replies that it was because they were paid with money taken from the Jews; one man makes a signal with his hand (possibly of slitting his throat), and explains that it was the signal did this to the Jews when they arrived on the trains, to warn them of what was coming; the men explain that when the Jews saw that sign, they would try to escape from the trains however possible; one man says that many escaped that way and survived, and Lanzmann argues with him, saying that none survived.
FILM ID 3368 -- Camera Rolls #71 -- 07:00:07 to 07:10:25
Gawkowski standing on a locomotive. Picture cuts out briefly at 07:00:23. Gawkowski explains the layout of the tracks where they are standing. They are close to Treblinka. He also tries to explain how the landscape was different. Lanzmann wants to know why Gawkowski appears so sad. He explains that it's because men went to their deaths here. It makes him feel sick, because they killed innocent people, even babies. He saw them bash babies against the wheels of the train. He secretly gave water to the Jews on the train, despite the risk of death for doing so. Picture cuts out at 07:10:11 to end.
FILM ID 3370 -- 3 int. loco -- 09:00:00 to 09:07:12
Footage of Gawkowski operating a train. Shots of shoveling coal, blowing the whistle, driving down the track, steam valves, etc. No conversation. Picture cuts out 09:06:11 to 09:06:33, and at 09:06:48.
FILM ID 3371 -- 3bis entre engage train -- 10:00:00 to 10:19:34
Shot of train coming down track, stopping next to the Treblinka station sign. Break from 10:01:50 to 10:01:59. Repeat, train coming down track, stopping next to the Treblinka station sign, with Gawkowski leaning out the side of the engine. Break from 10:05:22 to 10.05:38. Repeat, train coming down track, ends at 10:07:56. Repeat, train coming down track, with Gawkowski hanging out the side of the engine, ends at 10:10:40. Train is stationary next to the Treblinka sign, with intermittent CUs of Lanzmann and Gawkowski leaning out of the engine, ends at 10:13:33. Shot of train coming down an open stretch of track, whistling. Picture cuts out from 10:15:34 to 10:16:09. Brief shot of train, Tr. 73. Picture cuts out again from 10:16:11 to 10:16:31. Brief shot of train track. Cuts again 10:16:35 to 10:16:49. Shot of train entering Treblinka station. Picture cuts out from 10:17:54 to 10:19:00. Resumes with train parked next to Treblinka station sign.
FILM ID 3372 -- 3ter derriere le loco -- 11:00:00 to 11:12.04.00.
Camera positioned behind Gawkowski as he leans out of the moving train. The frame at 11:01:19:07 is very close to the jacket cover of the final film. Picture cuts out 11:04:45 to 11:05:02 and again from 11:05:04 to 11:05:14. Sporadic shots on top of and inside train. Picture cuts out from 11:06:06 to 11:06:42. Cuts out again from 11:06:56 to 11:07:16. Random clips of Gawkowski driving train through the countryside, CUs of different parts of the train. Picture cuts out at 11:11:46.

A hidden camera interview with Eduard Kryshak, who accompanied two or three train transports of Jews to Treblinka and was a witness at postwar trials in Düsseldorf and Bielefeld. He claims he did not know that people were killed at Treblinka until after the war. Kryshak's wife is frequently visible doing chores in the kitchen where the interview takes place, or watching Lanzmann and Kryshak as they talk.
FILM ID 3357 -- Camera Rolls #1-7 Maison/Clinique/Chemin de Fer -- 01:00:00 to 01:27:50
No picture for first few minutes. Lanzmann is talking with a German woman about Kryshak, he is in hospital after having had an eye operation. Sound is presumably caught by a hidden microphone; Lanzmann speaks with his colleagues in French. Picture begins at 01:03:00, with Lanzmann walking up to a house and ringing the doorbell. The camera is hidden in a car parked across the street. Lanzmann speaks to Frau Kryshak through the intercom (audio does not pick up her voice), introducing himself as Dr. Sorel from Paris. Lanzmann finds out which hospital her husband is in. Picture cuts out at 01:05:03, resumes at 01:05:58 with Lanzmann back at the door, thanking Frau Kryshak by name. Lanzmann looks at the home for a few seconds, then walks away, speaking French with his female interpreter. The camera then pans into the van, showing the recording equipment. Lanzmann then repeats the previous scene, this time with the camera showing someone manning the equipment in the van. The camera hidden in a car across the street slowly zooms in on the entrance to the hospital where Kryshak is staying, repeated two times. The next scene shows Lanzmann entering the hospital. Picture cuts out at 01:12:54. Lanzmann and his interpreter speak with the hospital staff, trying to locate Kryshak. The attendant tells them he is no longer there. Other hospital staff join in the conversation and reveal that he had come in for a check-up but has already left. Picture resumes at 01:17:02, showing the outside of the hospital, with Lanzmann and associates walking towards the van. Picture cuts out again at 01:17:38 for a few seconds. Lanzmann returns to the Kryshak home and rings the doorbell several times, with no answer. He yells Herr Kryshak's name, a woman answers at an upper window and says she doesn't know where Frau Kryshak is. Lanzmann speaks in French with his associate and they walk away from the house. Camera shows interior of van again. 01:24:45 [no sound through end of tape] Camera shows an older man leaving the Kryshak home. Lanzmann and his associate approach him and speak with him. End of roll shows Lanzmann and several associates leaving the home, carrying camera equipment.
FILM ID 3358 -- Camera Rolls #1-7 SS.026 Chemin de Fer -- 02:00:00 to 02:24:00
No picture until 02:01:07. First scenes of camera hidden in a briefcase as Lanzmann follows Kryshak up the stairs into his apartment. They sit in the kitchen, with the camera positioned to capture Kryshak. Before they start, Lanzmann excuses his associate to go outside, she takes the camera with her. Lanzmann continues to talk with Kryshak, asking about his operation and age. Sound cuts out at 02:06:36, but hidden camera footage continues until the end of the roll at 02:07:15. Sound returns, but no picture until 02:08:15. Kryshak discusses the mechanics of the train (brakes, the engine). Kryshak first came to Poland in 1942, to Vilna. He explains that he was a "blauer Eisenbahner", meaning he was with the Deutschen Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft (DRG) and that he had nothing to do with the military trains [Wehrmachts-Feldeisenbahner]. Kryshak then goes through the various places in Poland he was in, before being assigned by his boss to Bialystok. He explains that he was not an official train conductor, having only taken the test, but he had the skills to do it, amongst other services he had to perform. Kryshak talks about the various types of trains he traveled with: normal passenger trains, freight trains, special transports and Jewish convoys. He accompanied two or three trains loaded with Jews. Picture and sound cut out 02:14:17, picture returns at 02:14:29, sound at 02:14:43. Kryshak says he didn't know where the trains came from or went to, he just accompanied them, although he speculates they went to Auschwitz or Treblinka. He also mentions that they were always transported in freight cars. Kryshak mentions that the security detail for the transports were comprised mostly of Ukrainians and Poles. Kryshak then describes how he gave water to some of the Jewish prisoners through the hatch on the train car. He's unsure how many people were in the train car, but estimates that there were about 50-60 cars. He accompanied that train to Malkinia, which was only 7-10 kilometers from Treblinka. He says that one could see the chimneys of Treblinka, but that at that time he wasn't aware what was going on. Lanzmann probes him on this point, asking him at what point he did know. Kryshak claims it was only after the war that he learned what went on at Treblinka. Lanzmann then says he must have had some idea that what was happening wasn't right. Kryshak agrees with this, but says that 'Treblinka' didn't mean anything to him at the time. Sound and picture cut out briefly at 02:19:14. Lanzmann asks him what he thought the fire coming out of the chimneys was from. Kryshak responds that they thought it was oil burning; they had no idea until after the war what it really was. Despite Lanzmann suggesting he was not responsible, Kryshak remains adamant he did not know what was going on at Treblinka. Lanzmann asks if he ever had interactions with any of the Polish train conductors who moved the convoys into the camp. He answers that he did not. Lanzmann mentions Henryk Gawkowski, but Kryshak says he did not know him. Lanzmann suggests that Kryshak's name is Polish. Kryshak explains that his family lived on the border, in East Prussia, and that his grandparents spoke only Polish.
FILM ID 3359 -- Camera Rolls #8,9 -- 03:00:00 to 03:17:45
Audio is problematic for the first few seconds. Kryshak says that he was a soldier, but that he never needed to fire a shot. He explains how things turned chaotic at the end of the war. He surrendered to the British (although it was actually Polish and Belgian forces?), and complains about the unnecessary force used by the Belgians. Lanzmann changes the subject to when Kryshak lived in Bialistok (must be referring to prior to the war), asking him about the Jews that lived there and in Prosken. Kryshak says there were many Jews, they bought goods from them, even his doctor was Jewish. Many of the higher-level merchants were Jewish. Lanzmann asks what happened to them, Kryshak is absolutely certain that the Jews of Prosken got out before the war, but those in Bialistok were put in a ghetto and were forced to work at the nearby iron works factory. Kryshak also tells of their Jewish housekeeper, a young girl who had mentioned several times that she was afraid she would disappear into a camp. Lanzmann asks if they knew the name Treblinka. Kryshak says they never spoke about that, but he didn't think so. He doesn't know what happened to his housekeeper; one day she just never came back. Lanzmann asks if he ever accompanied a train to Auschwitz and Kryshak says he only went to Malkinia. End of roll at 03:06:46.
Picture returns a couple of seconds later, sound at 03:07:12. Lanzmann wants to know what Kryshak thought about accompanying a loaded train and returning with an empty one. He says he can't really say, which is also his answer when Lanzmann asks about the terrible smell described by previous Polish interviewees. Kryshak brings up his post-war trial, during which he said he knew there was burning at Treblinka (likely a partial continuation of the conversation not caught on film in between camera rolls 8 and 9, as up to this point Kryshak has denied having any knowledge of what went on in Treblinka.). Kryshak then explains the steps involved in preparing and loading the train cars and transporting them to Malkinia. He received special orders when transporting the Jews. Lanzmann asks if he thought the Jews were afraid and Kryshak responds that they definitely had fear because they knew where they were going. Lanzmann wants to know how the Jews could be aware of Treblinka and not himself. [Picture cuts out from 03:11:28 to 03:12:39] Kryshak says one could see the fear in the Jews. He believed they were simply gathering the Jews to have them all in one central location and he did not know about the annihilation. He was only a simple public servant, one could not protest anyway. Lanzmann asks if he received any extra compensation for the Jewish transports, Kryshak says it did not matter what they were transporting, the rate was the same. Lanzmann mentions that the Polish train operators received alcohol and then asks Kryshak if he knows someone named Bleichschmidt but he doesn't. Lanzmann wants to know how long the journey took. Kryshak explains how far it was and how fast the various trains could go. Sound cuts out at 03:16:51.
FILM ID 3360 -- Camera Rolls #100,9-10 -- 04:00:00 to 04:15:54
Lanzmann and his associates travel in the van used for secret filming, with views of the countryside. Lanzmann reads from several pages of handwritten notes, in French. Picture cuts out briefly at 04:06:17. No sound through the end of the roll. Camera captures houses and shops as Lanzmann and crew drive through the streets [somewhere near Kirchweyhe, Germany]. 04:13:46 Secret filming of Kryshak resumes. Beginning with a close-up of Frau Kryshak, the camera pans to Herr Kryshak and then back again [no audio].
FILM ID 3361 -- Camera Rolls #11-14 -- 05:00:00 to 05:25:34
Kryshak is speaking, no audio until 05:01:09. He explains how he came to work so much on the trains, despite his being on standby. He was one of the younger men, so when others were sick or on vacation or for 'special' trains [Sonderzüge], he was called to accompany them. Lanzmann states several times that he must have accompanied many 'special' trains and Kryshak eventually responds in the affirmative. Lanzmann asks if it was difficult work and Kryshak says that it was. Lanzmann then asks if he had any fear or apprehensions about it and Kryshak responds that it was his job. It didn't matter if the train he was accompanying was carrying munitions, goods, Jews, soldiers or the wounded. He had nothing to do with what the trains carried, his job was to accompany them. Lanzmann asks him to read a train schedule. Kryshak examines the schedule as Lanzmann explains it is an order for unit 33, a 'special' train [Referat 33 - Sonderzüge]. Kryshak says that perhaps his supervisor would have received such a document, but he would not have. Lanzmann wants to know what the 'DA' means, Kryshak isn't sure. Lanzmann suggest 'Deutsche Aussiedler' [literally German emigrants - referred to Jews from German-speaking areas: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia], which Kryshak says could be correct. Lanzmann then shows him another paper, this one referencing PJ 111, meaning polnische Juden [Polish Jews]. Kryshak thinks it means a passenger train, but Lanzmann is adamant it is referencing Polish Jews. This train traveled from Bialistok to Auschwitz, with a stop in Malkinia. Kryshak explains that there were always changes in the trains' personnel, he doesn't know whether a train would have gone on to Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks again if he ever went to Treblinka, he maintains that he didn't. Lanzmann states that the organization of the Jewish transports was very good and Kryshak agrees. Lanzmann asks about the guards who accompanied the trains. Kryshak says they were mostly German, sometimes Ukrainian or SS. Kryshak believes the foreign guards treated the Jews worse than the German ones. He doesn't remember the Ukrainians wearing uniforms, only armbands. Lanzmann asks if the trains he accompanied were mostly full of Polish Jews. Kryshak doesn't know, he only knows they boarded in Vilna. Cuts out briefly,
New roll begins 05:11:15, sound begins at 05:11:30. Kryshak says the Jews loaded onto the trains were dirty, that there were men, women, and children (of the latter he's not as sure). He explains how little time they were given to prepare a train for departure. He did not observe the loading process as that was outside his duties. Force was sometimes used to get the Jews onto the trains. Lanzmann asks about several other places, including Warsaw and Lublin but Kryshak says he never went there. Lanzmann asks if the train cars were clean and Kryshak says they were, but he doesn't know who cleaned them. Lanzmann begins speaking in French to his interpreter. Sound cuts out from 05:17:56 to 05:21:03.
New roll begins 05:20:00. Lanzmann is discussing where the train cars were cleaned. Kryshak doesn't know. Lanzmann says that he thought the train cars were quite dirty; Kryshak agrees they would have been after having 50-60 people crammed into them without toilets. Picture and sound cut out briefly at 05:22:17, sound cuts out at 05:24:09. Roll ends at 05:25:34.

Czeslaw Borowi (Borowy) is a Polish peasant who lived his entire life in Treblinka. He describes the transports and the experience of living in the shadow of the camp. When the Germans were shooting at Jews, his family slept on the floor to avoid stray bullets. He repeats some of the common refrains about how rich Jews arrived in fancy trains and the Jews offered no resistance. Borowi makes the throat-slitting sign in "Shoah." See Lanzmann's memoir The Patagonian Hare for his reflections on Borowi and his role in the film.
FILM ID 3348 -- Camera Rolls #46,47,48,56 -- 01:00:13 to 01:23:39
Reel 46 Lanzmann is standing in front of Borowi with translator Barbara flanking him in a field, in front of some piles of various items and a train off in the distance. Lanzmann begins by asking Borowi if he hates cinema, and then yells at his translator. Borowi says that they filmed "Departure and Return" at the same station, and hated all the extra work he was put through to recreate the station's look during the war. He says that he lived here all his life and saw the transports from a distance. He says that trains would arrive with 60 to 80 cars pulled by two locomotives, and each time a locomotive would take about 20 cars into the camp and return empty. There are three lines in the transcript that are not on the tape. 01:02:38 Borowi says that locomotives would take about 20 cars into the camp and return empty, taking about half an hour to do so. He remembers that it was very hot, and that the Germans would actually take some cars and go swimming in the Bug. Lanzmann then has some problems getting his questions answered through his translator and Borowi.
Reel 47 01:04:39 Lanzmann asks for Borowi to explain better, how he could live just 200 yards from the trains that took so many Jews to their deaths. After having more trouble with Barbara Janicka, the translator, Borowi says that they brought a lot of convoys here and began building, and people began to think something was going on. Lanzmann interrupts and the reel ends. For Lanzmann's reflections on working with Barbara and the accuracy of her translations, see pgs. 481 - 482 of the English translation of The Patagonian Hare.
Reel 48 01:07:08 Lanzmann asks if Borowi remembers the first transport, but he says that he doesn't remember that specific date, he never thought he'd need to remember it. He says that he does remember the first transport though, and wondered how they were going to kill so many Jews, and people began to talk about how unprecedented something like this is. He says that the Poles thought that their turn would come too, and they debated on what they would do if the Germans came for them, which surprises Lanzmann. Borowi says that they preferred to die in their town rather than in the camp, and would resist the Germans if it came to that. He mentions that the Germans promised other Germans that once the war was over, they would not work and all of the other races would work for them. All the Poles worked out of fear, waiting for when the Germans would steal them from their houses at night, and some families had people keep watch. As for the Jews, they were not as concerned about them as they were for themselves, he says.
Reel 56 01:14:11 Lanzmann asks Borowi if he remembers the first convoy. He says he does, but only after Lanzmann says that the date is not important. Borowi points out where he lived at that time and says that he would have to sleep on the ground at night to make sure he wasn't shot as the Jews tried to escape. 01:17:06 Borowi asks if they're finished, Lanzmann seems to think that they are. The camera takes a shot of Lanzmann, focusing on him and then the background, then back again. It does the same for Borowi. Shots of Barbara and other B-roll.
FILM ID 3349 -- Camera Roll #49 -- 02:00:20 to 02:11:24
Reel 49 Lanzmann asks about the horrible smell that everyone talked about, and Borowi said it was there. They would put bodies in ditches, then spray them with a liquid, add logs, and set it on fire, and that would cause the smell. He describes a glow over the camp from the constant burning of bodies, and you could smell it in the dew, and the wind would carry it over 10km away. He says that the families tried to shield themselves from it, by closing all the windows even on the hottest days, but it really never stopped. Borowi says that they weren't Roma, they couldn't move, so they suffered through it. He says that the Jews didn't have any nerve, not resisting, which Lanzmann asks about. He wondered why the massive numbers didn't simply overrun the few Ukrainian guards and escape. He said that the Poles tried to warn them when they asked for water from the trains, which were very cramped. Lanzmann stops the interview because he doesn't understand something.
FILM ID 3350 -- Camera Rolls #50-52 -- 03:00:11 to 03:22:04
Reel 50 Lanzmann wants clarification on some statements, the one where Borowi said that they had no courage, and then how he described the conditions in the car. He asked that considering the conditions, what could they do? Borowi responds that they all had tools, and sometimes they would actually cut away the barbed wire screens. One time, he says, a Jew jumped out through that window, and when threatened by a Ukrainian, he wasn't killed. He then says that most guards were Polish, and the Jews spoke Polish, and sometimes there weren't even guards to keep them in. Lanzmann is confused, he stops the interview again.
Reel 51 03:03:25 Lanzmann asks for further clarification. Borowi says that this escaped Jew was cowardly for not attacking the Ukrainian. Lanzmann presses the issue, citing the horrible conditions that the Jews had been in for two years. Borowi then, when asked, talks about the signal to the Jews, and that everyone knew what was happening to them in all nations. He says that foreign Jews arrived in Pullmans with playing cards and flowers, guarded by Police and not Gestapo men. He says that the Jews knew their fate, but wouldn't accept it, that they all tried to warn them. Lanzmann, interrupting, asks him if he really believes that the signal was to get the Jews to rise up for themselves. When he asks why the Poles didn't kill the Germans themselves, he gets a lot of an answer and interrupts the tape.
Reel 52 03:12:10 Lanzmann asks why they did not kill the Germans and Ukrainians themselves. He says that they couldn't, they had their families here, they had their homes and lives here, and everybody knew everybody else, so the fear of being turned in was too great; they could kill off your family for your actions. Borowi says that the Jews who escaped the cars died here, and that many times the Ukrainians would shoot through the walls of the trains because they wanted quiet and the Jews were talking. When Borowi makes a sound he considers an imitation of their language, Lanzmann presses him on it. He asks about what would happen to the bodies, and Borowi answers that the local authorities were in charge of ensuring that the bodies got buried so that animals wouldn't get to them. 03:17:43 Lanzmann changes topics to the Jews' gold. Borowi says that some threw it out the window so some Pole could have it rather than the Germans, but most hid it in their clothes or shoes. Sometimes, he says, curious people would find hidden pockets full of money and gold in the piles of clothes left behind.
FILM ID 3351 -- Camera Rolls #53-55 -- 04:00:13 to 04:31:18
Reel 53 Lanzmann asks Borowi about trafficking of goods in the area. He says that the Ukrainians would smuggle gold out of the camp, pay for goods with it, and people would come from as far as Warsaw to buy the gold. They talk about the prostitutes who would come from all around and be paid with this gold. Borowi says that as he worked the fields, sometimes, near the camp, you would hear geese and shouts of Jews. Religion is mentioned, and the prayers for the Jews, but Lanzmann has some problems with the translator again and cuts.
Reel 54 04:11:33 Lanzmann asks Borowi why he thinks all of this happened to the Jews. He first declines to answer. Lanzmann presses him. He says that the old Jews always talked about a time when they would have to perish, but he does not know why. He also says that the Jewish merchants would talk about how the Germans described them as parasites that needed to be removed. He says that the Germans also considered the Roma to be lazy people like the Jews. Borowi says that the Catholic elders said that the Jews were going to atone for the death of Christ, and this must have been it. Lanzmann stops the interview, saying that they'll continue in a second.
Reel 55 04:19:57 Lanzmann asks Borowi if he thinks that he [Lanzmann] is Jewish. Borowi answers yes, because of his accent and his gait. He says that Jews tended to sway, and he saw this at the inauguration of the camp [memorial]. He is glad they survived, and doesn't think this could happen again, not in the civilized world, but he also says that he really does not know the world very well at all. 04:24:28 Lanzmann thanks Borowi and offers to pay him for his interview. He asks how much he would like, and he says that he does not know, he does not want to ask for too much. They begin to joke about Jewish gold and the riches of American Jews. Lanzmann and Borowi, and perhaps translator Barbara, seem to participate in this equally. Lanzmann asks Borowi about what he thinks of Israel, and he says that they are supported by the Americans, because such a small nation would not last without them. Lanzmann says, "He's a genius! He recognized and exposed me as Jewish, immediately; he has flair, tell him he's got flair... he's got a feel for the Jews." (ellipses quoted in context). Borowi says one last thing, about how the Germans made peace with Israel after the war, and then sent police to say that the Poles murdered the Jews, when that was not true. The interview ends.

Martha Michelson was the wife of a Nazi schoolteacher in Chelmno. She talks about the Sonderkommando, Jews killed in a church, the terrible smell that pervaded the town when bodies were burned, the Poles' attitude toward the Jews, and the operation of gas vans. She says that she told people in Germany about the extermination in 1942 or 1943 but they accused her of spreading atrocity propaganda.
FILM ID 3352 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:00 to 01:32:09
Lanzmann asks Michelson for help understanding what things were like in Chelmno. She says that conditions were very primitive: no running water, no electricity. There were ten or eleven German families with lots of children. The local Poles worked as farmhands and some worked in the local forest. Lanzmann asks what daily life was like for her family. She talks about the small school and says there was only one store. Her husband was an ethnic German from Riga. They discuss some of the buildings in the town, the castle (Schloss) and the church, a German municipal building, and the school where the Michelsohns lived. They came to Chelmno in December 1939 but were forced to move from their house when the camp was established. Lanzmann asks if she remembers the arrival of Commandant [Hans] Bothmann and his Sonderkommando (Bothmann oversaw the extermination of hundreds of thousands of Jews between spring 1942 and March 1943, when deportation of Jews to Chelmno was halted). She saw some of the transports of Jews arrive in trucks and later on a narrow gauge railway that had been built for the purpose. The Jews were brought to the church where they were told that they would be deloused. Lanzmann asks if she knew the Jews were being killed and she says she never saw it, but there was a terrible burning smell that hung over the village in the evenings. Transports arrived almost daily and Michelsohn says that some multiple of 40, 40,000 or 400,000, were killed at Chelmno. The condition of the Jews was terrible and sad and their cries were awful to hear. She never witnessed the murder of the Jews, but she assumed their bodies were burned because of the smell. She describes the trucks that were used to gas Jews. She says the gas vans came into use later, when there were too many Jews to kill and burn at Majdanek [? Later in the interview it seems that when she refers to Majdanek she is not talking about the camp but about another location called Majdanek]. Everyone knew the Jews were being exterminated and Michelsohn says that the Poles were glad about it. She felt there would be retaliation for the exterminations. Lanzmann says that in the second period the Jews were gathered in the church and Jewish clothing was distributed among the Poles in Lodz. Lanzmann asks what Bothmann was like and Michelsohn says that he was drunk most of the time because it was the only way he could handle the work.
01:20:17 CR 3 Lanzmann asks Michelsohn about certain Germans who worked at the camp (Laabs, Hafele, Burmeister). She recognizes the names of a couple of them. She does not recognize Lanzmann's description of Srebnik. He tells her that only two Jews survived Chelmno [Simon Srebnik and Michael Podchlebnik). Michelsohn says that her husband complained to Bothmann about the fact that the villagers had to witness the terrible treatment of the Jews. She says it was depressing because "they are people like we are." She says that the villagers could not do anything about what was happening to the Jews. She says she was able to carry on with life during such a terrible time because she had no choice: her husband had to do his duty for the government. Lanzmann mentions the smell again and Michelsohn says that the smell was only in the first period. Lanzmann says that he thinks that the Germans used gas vans to kill Jews from the beginning and Michelsohn says that it has been so long that she could be remembering things incorrectly. Her husband also complained because Bothmann held "orgies" with German girls from Wartheland. Lanzmann asks Michelsohn to describe the manor house (Schloss) where the Jews were told to undress and give up their valuables before being loaded into the gas vans. The manor house was hidden by a tall fence but the church was still used by the Poles on Sundays, and it was used to hold the clothing of the murdered Jews. At first the Jews believed they were going to be deloused, but when they suspected what would really happen ttheir screams became more frantic. Lanzmann says that all of the Poles with whom he has spoken remember an incident where a gas van exploded but Michelsohn says she doesn't remember anything like that.
FILM ID 3353 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:00 to 02:31:28
CR 4 Lanzmann asks Michelsohn if she remembers the Riga Inn (Gaststaette) in Warthbruecken, which she does. He says that Arthur Greiser, Gauleiter of Wartheland, treated the Chelmno staff to dinner at the Riga Inn. He questions why she said that people killed in Chelmno were buried in Majdanek (apparently a forest between Chelmno and Warthbruecken) and he says this forest is called Ruszov. She clarifies that she is not referring to the infamous Majdanek concentration camp. They discuss the return of Bothmann's Kommando to Chelmno in 1944. She tells him that the castle in Chelmno was destroyed in World War I, which surprises Lanzmann because it was used in the killing of the Jews. She says this is correct, but that it was ruins at the time. Michelsohn begins to talk about the Jews who were chosen for work (Arbeitsjuden). Picture cuts out from 02:07:54 to 02:08:02, from 02:08:21 to 02:08:37, and from 02:08:48 to 02:08:54. These cuts correspond to dialog and picture that was used in the final film.
CR 5 02:08:59 Michelsohn speaks of trying to tell people in the Reich what terrible things were happening in Chelmno, but she was accused of spreading atrocity propaganda. No one believed her, including her relatives, because it was impossible to believe unless one had experienced it personally. She says that when she was in Lodz once the bus that she was on drove through the ghetto. They discuss the effect on the children living in the area: she believes that they didn't comprehend what was going on and if they asked questions, one could only say, it is an order from the government. The situation didn't make people depressed but instead they were indignant (Empoerung). She and her husband applied to be posted further west but the request was denied.
CR 6 02:20:12 Michelsohn talks about the heavy emotional burden (seeliche Belastung) she and her husband carried because of their experience in Chelmno. She says that the Jews who came to Chelmno were not all rich, but came from all walks of life, rich, poor, young, old (despite Lanzmann mentioning Polish claims that all the Jews were rich). Lanzmann wants to know which parts of the killing process the residents of Chelmno were able to see. Michelsohn discusses her husband's position with the NSV (das Nationalsozialistische Volkswohlfahrt-the Nazi Welfare Services). The welfare service provided for the poor German families in the area by giving them Polish land. She tells how the Germans living in the area would get together to speak about the war and territory lost and gained. She and her husband had no hope for a German victory after Stalingrad. Picture cuts out a few seconds before end of roll.
FILM ID 3354 -- Camera Rolls #7,9 -- 03:00:00 to 03:24:00 (there is no CR 8)
CR 7 The camera focuses briefly on a photograph in the room, presumably Michelsohn's husband. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Frau Michelsohn discusses her thoughts about the East (i.e. Poland). She says she was not afraid of the East and that her impression was that it had so much more space and fewer people than in the West (Lanzmann uses the word "Raum"). However, she was soon disillusioned because Chelmno was so primitive and the winters were so cold. The worst time was when the killing actions against the Jews began (December 1941). She thought the Germans would succeed in Russia, that they would obtain this great expanse of land. Lanzmann asks again if she remembers the boy who sang on the river but she says she does not. She mentions that she knew several Poles and that the Polish people were neglected. Picture cuts out at the end of the reel.
CR 9 No picture from 03:11:23 to 03:11:53. VCU of Michelsohn's face. Michelsohn again speaks of the primitive circumstances, no running water or bathrooms, little soap, etc. Cleanliness was a big issue. The hygiene among the Jews was of course very bad. She thinks about these events often, as one can't forget such terrible things. She and her husband spoke about it often. She describes a recurring dream where the Jews are forced into the gas vans and she hears their screaming. She describes the visible difference between German Jews and the 'Ostjuden'. The Jews from the East wore the clothing of orthodox Jews, while the German Jews "looked like any European." She says that even at the time she thought the killing was a crime against humanity. She's not sure how many Jews were killed in Chelmno, 40,000 or 400,000. Picture cuts out from 03:20:36 to 03:21:20, after which there is no sound.

A hidden camera interview with a member of Ordnungspolizei in Chelmno. Franz Schalling describes the process of execution by gas vans at Chelmno.
FILM ID 3355 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:00 to 01:29:05
CR 1 The image is black and white and not very clear, and also somewhat tilted. Schalling sits at a table in front of a window and Lanzmann sits on a couch next to him, with his female interpreter/assistant next to him. Schalling tells of how he came to be in Chelmno. He was part of the Schutzpolizei stationed in Litzmannstadt (Lodz) and had no idea what Chelmno was when he got there. He asked the SS at the camp what Chelmno was and they told him that he would soon find out. Schalling says that Chelmno was a small farming village and that he arrived in the winter of 1941/1942. He was assigned to a small house that served as a guardroom near the castle; he and his fellow policemen patrolled the fenced area around the castle (Schlosskommando). He mentions that the younger policemen were placed in the forest patrols (Waldkommando). He himself was part of these patrols once or twice. Lanzmann asks him to describe what he saw, and Schalling says that he was able to see what went on, because he guarded the gate. He tells of the Jews arriving on trucks, freezing, hungry, and dirty. He doesn't know if they were afraid, but it was clear that they didn't trust anyone after the experience of the ghetto. He heard the SS speak to the Jews, telling them that they would be put to work but that they would need to bathe before coming into the camp. Schalling begins talking about five Polish criminals who came to the camp. Audio cuts out last few seconds.
01:09:55 CR2 Schalling continues talking about the five Polish criminals. These men were told that they would be given German citizenship after the war was over and for this reason they worked for the Germans forcing the Jews into the gas vans. Schalling describes the castle or manor house (Schloss) and how the Jews were processed. They had to undress and surrender their valuables to a Polish worker. They undressed in the top part of the castle, and then went downstairs to the basement where a ramp led to the gas vans. Lanzmann's intrepreter gets up and goes to sit on the other side of Lanzmann. The doorbell rings and another woman, who we learn later in the interview is Schalling's friend, Mrs. Brand, gets off the couch to go answer it. Lanzmann asks Schalling to draw a diagram of the basement, ramp and gas vans. Sound cuts out 01:14:46. Audio resumes but picture cuts out from 01:14:55 to 01:17:30 [transcript pages are also missing]. Schalling describes the gas vans. They only used exhaust from the engines to kill. A Pole would shout "Gas" and the driver would crawl under the van and hook up the exhaust pipe to the van. The drivers were SS. Lanzmann asks whether the trucks made a loud noise. They would drive the vans out into the woods. He's not sure how long it took for the Jews to die.
Picture resumes at 01:17:26 with a slate that reads 40 B (CR 3?). The camera is now focused more tightly on Schalling. Lanzmann asks how long it took the people to die and Schalling says it could have been five, ten, or fifteen minutes. Lanzmann says that Schalling has said he still sees pictures of Chelmno before his eyes. Lanzmann, with the help of his interpreter, asks Schalling to describe these images. He begins to describe old people and children, arriving half-dead from the journey. They sometimes rode in open trucks in winter, without anything to eat. Lanzmann questions Schalling's story about being sworn to secrecy about what he saw (which appears in final film), because the Poles Lanzmann interviewed said they knew what was going on. Schalling says that Polish women cleaned their accommodations and they saw everything and they were afraid. Mrs. Brand offers the group coffee. No image or sound from 01:20:40.
Slate reading Alephe Holocauste Bob 41. Video appears at 01:21:00 (CR 4?). Sound resumes at 01:21:10. Schalling says that he spoke about the extermination with an SS man who gave him a ride to Lodz. The SS man said that they had been ordered from above to kill the Jews. He describes this man, whose name he does not remember, as very humane, and goes on to discuss other men at the camp. Lanzmann asks him about the Jews in the forced labor details and Schalling says that he sometimes had to guard them as they sorted the valuables of those who had been killed. The Jews from the Sonderkommando slept in the basement and Schalling claims that he sometimes threw food down for them to eat because they received so little to eat. Schalling agrees with Lanzmann when he says that he has heard that the work of the Jews in the forest (Waldkommando) was awful. They were chained together so that they couldn't run away. Schalling mentions one man (Mordechai Podchlebnik) who escaped Chelmno and Lanzmann informs him that Podchlebnik is still alive. Schalling says that he got in trouble with his superior officer, Hoefing (? Alois Haefele?), because he chastised a colleague for beating Jews. Sound drops out at the end of the tape.
FILM ID 3356 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 02:00:00 to 02:18:22
CR5 Lanzmann asks Schalling why he has never spoken to his son about Chelmno. Schalling says that his son does not understand why he didn't fight against Nazism and that he would would have despised him if he knew about Chelmno. They also discuss why he never spoke to anyone, including his wife, about Chelmno. She would have called him a murderer, even though he isn't a murderer. He says that if Hoefing (?) had sent him before the police court, as he threatened to do, it would not have been as bad as being in Chelmno. He says that he can speak to Frau Brand about it, and she says that they have known each other for a long time. Lanzmann asks him if he dreams about Chelmno. He says no, but he does dream about his time as a prisoner of the Soviets. Lanzmann returns to the subject of the Jews forced to work in the forest unloading the bodies from the gas vans. Schalling witnessed this a couple times. Once he was given a message to give to Lenz and rode his bicycle to the forest to deliver it. He describes the camp and the mass graves. He also saw when they had to dig up the graves and burn the bodies. The fire burned throughout the night. It was extremely cold so he kept warm by the fire of burning corpses. Schalling says that the stench was terrible, spread over everything and lasted day and night. When the Jews from the forest commando were done with their work for the day they rode back to the manor house (Schloss) in the gas vans. The stench was terrible and it reached to surrounding towns. The fires turned the heavens red above the graves. Lanzmann says that he has read that it was so cold that the Jews of the forest commando sometimes climbed into the gas vans to get some warmth from the corpses. Schalling never spoke with the Jews assigned to the Waldkommando, only to those stationed in the castle. Lanzmann asks him whether he knows that only two Jews suvived Chelmno. Schalling asks Lanzmann whether it is true that the prisoners killed Lenz with a knife. He heard this first at his trial in Bonn after the war. Lanzmann asks him if he understands why the Jews never really fought back. He didn't at the time, but after being taken prisoner by the Russians he did. He understood that there wasn't really anything they could do. He says again that he tried to help the Jews by giving them something to eat. There is no video or audio for transcript pages 25-42.
02:11:17 CR6 Lanzmann asks if the SS and others would get drunk. Schalling doesn't know, but those stationed in the forest certainly did. Lanzmann also asks about the situation with women, particularly the rumored orgy organized by Bothmann. Schalling denies knowledge of this but says that his superior Hoefing (?) was quite friendly with Sister Lillia from the hospital. Lanzmann asks about a few more people, whom Schalling doesn't know. Schalling recounts his time spent in a hospital, when he wasn't allowed to leave for Christmas. Lanzmann thanks Schalling for his time and expresses his hope that it wasn't too distressing for Schalling. Schalling says that it is all coming up again and mentions the film Holocaust. Audio cuts out 02:16:00, picture also cuts out at 02:18:22.

Jan Piwonski gives a detailed description of the extermination process at Sobibor. He also provides a harrowing account of the brutal treatment the Jews received in the process of building the camp. He could hear the screams of the victims from his home three kilometers from the camp. Lanzmann quizzes him about relations between the Poles and the Jews. Piwonski says that the Poles were surprised by the Jews' lack of resistance.
FILM ID 3339 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 01:00:08 to 01:18:05
Lanzmann and Piwonski are seated outside on a bench in front of a small building speaking through translator Barbara Janicka. (For Lanzmann's reflections on working with Barbara and the accuracy of her translations, see pgs. 481 - 482 of the English translation of his memoir The Patagonian Hare.) On the building is the word "Sobibor" on a sign above the door. Lanzmann asks Piwonski if he is alright, to which he answers that he is fine, though he is a bit stressed. They begin the interview, learning that the building (assumedly a train station) was there since 1938 and has not changed, nor have the few buildings in the vicinity. Piwonski tells that he worked track maintenance beginning in the spring of 1942, and became an assistant switchman by July of that year, working in the building in front of which they are currently seated. Piwonski says that he could see everything that went on from the building's window, including the main gate with "Arbeit Macht Frei" and the SS logo. He begins to talk about how the camp began when he is cut off by Lanzmann, who cuts the camera.
01:06:50 Piwonski begins to tell Lanzmann about the beginnings of the camp in 1942, but prefaces his comments by saying that he never kept a diary or notes, but he believes the Germans first brought a group of Jewish workers early in March of 1942. They were housed in one of the buildings (that they are sitting near) because the camps were not yet built. The Jewish workers would unload trains of materials, carrying them on their backs, running the entire time due to the brutality of the Germans. He could not identify from where these workers came because talking to them was strictly forbidden. The construction of the camp proceeded very quickly as the first convoy of Jews arrived. 01:13:50 Piwonski talks about the beginnings of the camp, when the barracks and the wall were beginning to be built.
FILM ID 3340 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 01:00:08 to 01:31:07
Piwonski continues describing the construction of the camp, saying that the Germans were forcing a very fast pace and yelled constantly. He describes the constant brutality that they endured while the Jewish workers unloaded bricks. Those who witnessed such brutality were quite shocked, he says. Piwonski continues, sounding a bit angry and then quite distraught at his words, saying that based on what he observed and the rumors from the Ukrainians and Russians that worked there, that the camp would be used to get rid of the Jews. He became choked up as he discussed the Germans killing Jews who were too exhausted to work at the fast pace. He could see all this because the barbed wire fences had not yet been covered with branches and trees; the land was quite clear and everything was rather visible to the outside world.
01:11:27 Piwonski describes the arrival of the first convoy, early June 1942. He says 40 or more cars arrived in the afternoon, accompanied by SS guards. He went home shortly after they arrived, believing that they would be working in the camp like those already there. He couldn't have known that Sobibor was going to be a place of massive extermination. When he returned the next morning, there was a silence in the camp, with nobody outside, no movement to be seen, which was quite different from the usual specter of hard work and screaming. People questioned what happened, with no answers forthcoming. After the second shipment came, a smell spread throughout the area, and then they realized what the true purpose of Sobibor was: extermination.
01:20:15 Piwonski recalls knowing that extermination was going on, and he and his comrades speculating on how such a thing was being done. Later convoys were not treated the same way; instead they were treated more brutally. The trains had to be split up because of the limited space on the ramp, so Polish rail workers divided the train in two while under German supervision. When those operating the train were Polish, Piwonski would sometimes hop onto the train's tender and ride it to the main gate, trying to see inside to satisfy his curiosity, seeing SS men with dogs, and the gas chambers themselves. Concludes with silence, and a CU on Lanzmann.
FILM ID 3341 -- Camera Roll #12 -- 03:00:08 to 03:21:56
Tape jumps frequently at the beginning. Piwonski says that from his town, only three kilometers away, he could hear the screams of the victims, in fact, all of Jwobeck could. These screams were indescribable, he says, hideous and terrible, a clamor of noises, of men, women, and children. The children's screams were easily distinguishable, as were gunshots and dogs barking. It was a sound that he says nobody can forget. He cannot escape it, he has nightmares to this day, very often, where he relives these scenes of those being shot, and even little children being crushed against tree trunks. The people began to piece things together, and based on the sounds of a diesel motor that ran only after a convoy had arrived, deduced that they were being killed by exhaust gas.
03:11:26 Silent scenes of the interview from afar, angles from further down the street opposite Barbara. You can see a crowd gathered off-camera to watch. CUs of some of those in the crowd follow.
FILM ID 3342 -- Camera Rolls #13,15-20 -- 04:00:10 to 04:18:39
Piwonski and Lanzmann walk through the forests around Sobibor while smoking cigarettes. Barbara is translating from off-screen. Lanzmann asks if people still hunt in these forests, to which Piwonski replies that they do, rather often. Lanzmann questions the locations, asking about the communal graves and the location of the camp itself. Piwonski reminds him that while they are within the confines of the camp, it is only the expanded camp, which was done in 1943. Only people were hunted then, he says. The borders of the camp in the forest were two and a half meter tall posts with five lines of barbed wire, along with a minefield. Those who attempted escape often failed. Piwonski says that the guards told stories of investigating exploded mines, where they would find a deer or an unfortunate Jew. Lanzmann repeats grimly, "a deer or a Jew..."
04:05:40 This segment's audio is very faint, and the picture soon cuts to brown. It was Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara walking towards the camera from the edge of the forest. As the audio reaches an audible level, the group is walking past the camera, stopping in front of it. It becomes clear that the group is talking about where things were located, and that the trees were planted by the Germans in 1943 so as to hide the camp.
04:10:33 Cut to a massive wall of piled logs that winds into the distance, a logging yard. The group of Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara are walking towards the camera. What they say is inaudible.
04:12:24 Massive wall of piled logs that winds into the distance, a logging yard, the same shot and pan once again. The group of Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara are walking past the camera lower left, barely audible. Cut to them sitting down on some logs to continue the interview. The tape cuts to brown, the audio for a new segment begins, but they are no longer on the log. It appears that the audio and video are not properly in sync here. They walk towards the bench again. 04:15:41 They are in the forest again, this time the camera views from afar. They are inaudible.
FILM ID 3343 -- Camera Roll #14 -- 05:00:08 to 05:11:24
Tape jumps frequently at the beginning. Piwonski and Lanzmann walk through the forest with Barbara off-screen. Lanzmann comments on how hard it is to imagine the horrors of Sobibor happening in these tranquil forests. Piwonski agrees, and says that the judges from Frankfurt agreed with that feeling. One judge said that the scents were so idyllic that it was romantic, and that it was hard for him to reconstruct the Nazi horrors in his mind because of it. 05:04:14 Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara (off-screen) have stopped walking. Piwonski says, at Lanzmann's asking, that there was no way for the Poles to tell the Jews what was about to happen to them at Sobibor. 05:05:15 Piwonski describes the relationship that the Poles had with the Ukrainians and Germans. There wasn't much interaction between them, but the Poles were discriminated against. The Ukrainians, who worked in the camp, were often overheard saying "good, now we can finish up the Jews and start on you." 05:08:26 Lanzmann asks Piwonski if the Ukrainians trafficked goods. Piwonski tells of them trying to sell items that were stolen from the Jews. He tells one story of a Ukrainian guard who tried to buy a bottle of Vodka from him. The Ukrainian wanted to use a bunch of gold-filled teeth, still bloody from the decomposing corpse that they were pulled from. Piwonski refused, and still seems disturbed by the scene.
FILM ID 3344 -- Camera Rolls #20-21 -- 06:00:08 to 06:16:06
Piwonski, Barbara, and Lanzmann are seated in front of a giant woodpile. Piwonski tells that not all of the Jews arrived in cattle cars, but that some of the richer Jews travelled in Pullmans. The Germans tried to make it so that the victims never knew what their fate would be, making it much easier to relocate them. Polish rail workers tried to warn them by speaking in German, but rarely were there opportunities to do this. He says that they knew what trains were for the camp, and that other stations would telephone or telegraph the information ahead to them.
FILM ID 3345 -- Camera Rolls #22-24 -- 07:00:08 to 07:33:41
Piwonski, Barbara, and Lanzmann are seated in front of a giant woodpile, continuing their conversation. Piwonski tells Lanzmann that escapes were relatively common among Polish Jews because they were very informed of what was going on. He talks of a column of 500 Jews being marched to Sobibor from another work project where half were killed en route for trying to escape. He doubts that they had actually tried to escape, considering that the 500 could easily overpower the 30 guards they had with them, and the terrain would have easily concealed them. He reasons instead that the elderly and exhausted must be those lost, and is befuddled by the lack of resistance, their "extreme passivity," and thinks that 500 Poles would have tried to escape.
07:11:27 Piwonski tells that he is baffled by the passivity of the Jews, as were many Poles. He cannot figure why, despite their history of non-violence, they did not resist more. He talks of solidarity in the communities, of Poles hiding Jews in their houses. Lanzmann is trying to figure out the Polish perception of Jews and why they did not act to stop the Germans, but does not get a satisfactory answer.
07:22:41 Lanzmann continues from the last Camera Roll, asking about how the Poles saw the Jews and why there was a lack of a response from the Polish community. Piwonski insists that the Jews were a part of the community, though considered different based on their religious beliefs and practices, they were still an "integral part of the Polish collective." 07:26:57 Lanzmann asks about the Poles' feelings on the Jews being relocated to ghettos. Piwonski says that the isolation of the Jews into ghettos was never accepted by the Polish community. But he also says that very few Jews settled in his small village, and instead more were in the cities, and in general, the Poles and Ukrainians were shocked by the actions of the Germans. Piwonski says he was surprised by the uprisings that did happen, as was the entire Polish community.
FILM ID 3346 -- Camera Rolls #25-27 -- 08:00:08 to 08:33:02
Piwonski says that the Poles expected the Jews to be able to resist more effectively. They also believed that this passivity was part of how the Germans were able to exterminate so many. The revolt at Sobibor was a real surprise for he and the rest of the Poles because they showed that not only could they escape, but they could fight the Germans, to fight for their dignity. 08:08:06 Lanzmann presses Piwonski concerning the Jews fighting for their dignity. He refers to those who had prepared for a long stay at Sobibor, deceived until their demise. Piwonski answers simply that the foreign Jews were indeed oblivious of their fate until the end.
08:11:16 Piwonski recalls what was heard from the camp after a convoy arrived. He describes a gathering in the camp, followed by a speech in German explaining that the Jews were to be washed and then put to work. The Jews often cheered this good news. It wasn't until later that one heard the screams of horror, followed by the silence and the sound of the diesel motor.
08:19:46 Lanzmann asks Piwonski what he thought of the German people as a whole, to which he replied that the ones at the camp were certainly abnormal, but the entire German people could not all be like that. "It is impossible to believe that a nation full of so many poets could be criminal," he says. He believes that the Germans at Sobibor who committed these atrocities were the rejects of the nation, and though the Poles only had contact with them, he doesn't think that the entire country could be like them. 08:22:33 Piwonski comments that the Ukrainians thought the Germans to be abnormal too, but the attitude of the Ukrainians was different. He tells the story of a Ukrainian guard coming to him in the summer of 1942. He was asking for vodka, and wanted to buy it using gold teeth, crowns, bridges, and fillings from a decomposing corpse that stank and was covered in blood. Piwonski immediately tossed it back to the Ukrainian, telling him to take them. The Ukrainian called him an idiot and left. Later, Piwonski's comrades would tell him that the same guard was trying to get the same deal with them. It was scenes such as this, on top of the German atrocities, that Piwonski cannot forget, and is still bothered by. Though cameraman Jimmy is told to cut, he continues to roll for another few minutes, getting CUs of Piwonski, Barbara, and Lanzmann.
FILM ID 3347 -- Camera Rolls #31-32 -- 09:00:08 to 09:15:46
Lanzmann, Piwonski, and Barbara are back in front of the blue building with a sign reading "Sobibor" above the door, assumedly a train station. Lanzmann asks a few questions about how things have changed. They get up and begin walking. Lanzmann is trying to get his bearings about the place, asking questions about the relationship of this location to the camp. They stop on some old railroad tracks, and Lanzmann asks where Piwonski's post was in relation to the camp, and where the trains were coming from and where exactly they were going to. They walk back across the tracks to the ramp, the exact one where the Jews were unloaded from the trains and taken into the camp. Lanzmann compares this to other camps, and realizes that there was only a small fence separating the camp from the town and that Sobibor was relatively small.
09:08:01 Lanzmann, Piwonski, and Barbara are in front of the train station once again, going over a lot of the same questions and answers as the previous reel. Large portions of this has no video. Piwonski describes the locations of various things from their new position across the tracks, including this time that the camp was designed to be very functional. Lanzmann comments that Sobibor was very small. Piwonski describes seeing the convoys from Western Europe, where the Jews were carried in Pullmans, and seeing the girls putting on makeup, unaware their destiny, and the helplessness of the Polish workers who were forbidden to tell them anything.

Hans Prause was an engineer with the German Reichsbahn who was stationed in Warsaw, Radom, Lvov, and Malkinia. He talks about the good relations between the German and Polish railroads, preparing trains before the invasion of the USSR, the situation in Lvov, hostile relations between the Poles and the Jews, and visiting the Warsaw ghetto. He defends the fact that he signed orders by saying that the trains would have gone regardless of anyone's signature. He defends Ganzenmüller regarding transports to Treblinka.
FILM ID 3331 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 01:00:07 to 01:33:56
Rolls 1-2 Prause sits at a table in front of a window. Lanzmann does not appear in the frame. Prause tells Lanzmann he was educated as an engineer and entered the service of the Reichsbahn in 1933. By 1938 he was a master builder or architect (Reichsbahnbaumeister) and he was posted to Poland after the war began. Prause talks about the structure of the Reichsbahn in Poland (Ostbahn), which consisted of Germans in leadership positions but was run mostly by Poles. The engine drivers of the trains were almost always Poles. The collaboration between the Germans and the Poles was very good. Prause clarifies that he only came to Poland in March 1941 to prepare parts of the railway for the attack on the USSR (although he did not know this at the time). He names several locations where he worked.
Roll 3 01:11:19 Prause learned of the attack on the USSR eight days before it happened when he was ordered to replace Polish telegraph operators at the border train stations with German soldiers. He was at the Malkinia train station when the war began. He details his titles and duties in Warsaw and other locations. He especially liked the people of Lemberg (Lvov/Lviv). He says that the relations between the Poles and the Jews were much worse than the relations between the Germans and the Jews. The Poles resented the Jews money because they were in debt to them. In the case of the Germans, the convinced Party members hated the Jews, but this was not the case with the common soldiers or the railway workers. He says that when railway workers were caught stealing (from the Jews?) they were sent home. A Polish woman sent him a Persilschein after the war (a postwar document used to prove that a person was not a Nazi or had behaved well during the war).
Roll 4 01:22:45 Prause says he was not an official NSDAP member but rather a member of the NSKK (Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahrer Korps) and that he had to join in order to be awarded an academic degree. Lanzmann asks him whether he had a Nazi worldview and he says no, and that his father was against Hitler. However, he enjoyed the companionship of the NSKK. He says that on the night of the Roehm purge in 1934 his NSKK Sturmfuehrer warned his men that something was happening, sent them all home, and told them to stay out of uniform. (The NSKK had earlier been part of the SA.) The Sturmfuehrer did the same thing on Kristallnacht. Lanzmann asks Prause what he thought of Kristallnacht and Prause says that he thought it was terrible (Mordschweinerei) but that one couldn't have done anything about it. Lanzmann returns to the subject of the locations where Prause was stationed when he was sent to Poland.
FILM ID 3332 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 02:00:07 to 02:34:13
Roll 5 In response to a question from Lanzmann, Prause says that when he was in Lemberg (Lvov/Lviv) there was no ghetto yet and that the Janowska concentration camp came much later. He says that when he was in Warsaw he was visited by some railway workers from Lvov who told him that the best thing about Warsaw was that there were no Jews on the streets, and that was the first time he realized how much the Poles hated the Jews. He says that the young Poles thought the Germans should kill all the Jews and not just some of them, and that this sentiment was something one might hear from a Nazi but not from an average German. He says that if a German soldier refused to take part in the shooting of Jews he would be shot. In response to Lanzmann's question Prause says there were two killing centers in his region, Treblinka and Sobibor. Prause says he was invited to visit Treblinka but never went to either camp. Lanzmann mentions Belzec as well and Prause say he has heard the name but is not familiar with the location. Lanzmann asks Prause when he learned about the extermination of the Jews. Prause says he learned of it in the Ostbahn canteen in Malkinia and that he knew before the Warsaw ghetto was destroyed. He says that the man who ran the canteen in Celce (Kielce? Written "Celce" in the transcript) had been assigned 200 or 300 Jews as laborers on his farm and when he found out that they were to be rounded up he tried to help them by releasing them into the forest.
Roll 6 02:11:25 Prause says that the German population at home did not know about the destruction of the Jews, which Lanzmann says he finds astonishing. Prause says when he was on home leave in Hamburg at the end of 1942 some of his Reichsbahn colleagues asked him whether it was true that the Jews were being killed. Reluctantly, he told them about Treblinka, where the Jews were killed with cyanide (Zyklon B). Lanzmann corrects him, saying that the Jews were killed with carbon monoxide in Treblinka. One of his colleagues became greatly upset and denied that it could be true, saying that no German could do such a thing, before beginning to cry. He illustrates his point that the normal German soldier did not hate the Jews with a story about German soldiers who objected strenuously to the mistreatment by the SS of a group of Jews in Kielce (Celce).
Roll 7 02:22:52 Lanzmann asks about the members of the Sonderzugreferat (Referat 33) who were arrested after the war (?) for signing off on transports of Jews. Prause says that they could not have been expected to know what was being transported in the trains, that the trains would have gone even without the signatures, and that anyone who refused orders would have been punished. Lanzmann mentions that he had spoken with [Walter] Stier, the head of Referat 33, about certain telegrams relating to the contents of trains (Einlegetelegramme). He quotes from one of the telegrams about the various categories of people on deportation trains. Prause says that these telegrams were discovered by the Russians. Lanzmann says that the trains carried the Jews to Treblinka and came back empty and that Stier must have known this, to which Prause answers that Stier couldn't have done anything to prevent it. Lanzmann presses Prause on whether he knew that the trains were taking Jews to Treblinka.
FILM ID 3333 -- Camera Rolls #8,9 -- 03:00:06 to 03:23:26
Roll 8 Lanzmann says that he went to Treblinka and found that all of the Poles who lived in the area knew what was going on at the camp. Prause says he was invited to visit the camp but refused. He defends Albert Ganzenmueller (head of the Reichsbahn) and says he could have done nothing to prevent the transports. Lanzmann mentions the famous letter written by Ganzenmueller to Himmler's adjutant Karl Wolff. Prause describes the Polish black market and the black market in the Warsaw ghetto. He says there was no charity between the Jews when trading on the black market. He saw old people starving to death in the streets and that nobody cared for them. He says that the poverty and the "ice cold" haggling between the Jews were his main impressions of the ghetto. He had always thought before that the image of the "haggling Jew" was a joke.
Roll 9 03:11:23 Prause describes the beginning of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, which he witnessed. Some of the Jews escaped via the sewers but the Poles would not protect them. Prause was able to take some photographs of the uprising.

One of the leaders of the revolt in Sobibor, Lerner talks about his knack for escaping from camps - he escaped from eight camps before arriving at Sobibor. He relates the Sobibor revolt in great detail, including his role in killing two Germans. Lanzmann found this interview so compelling that he used none of it in Shoah but instead made a separate film about Lerner, called "Sobibor, October 14, 1943, 4 P.M." The interview took place over four hours in Mr. Lerner's apartment in Jerusalem.
FILM ID 3334 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:07 to 01:33:27
01:00:46 Lerner, seated in front of a window looking into the camera, is talking to a translator and Lanzmann off-screen. He begins when he was a 16-year-old being transported from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka. He was separated from his family, whom he never saw again, and then put onto a train with many other young Jews who were able to work. He talks of conditions in the freight cars, and then of the conditions of his time working at a military airport. It was then he decided that he must escape. After two months of watching people starve to death or be shot by the Germans as a type of sport, he flees with a friend, sneaking out of the barbed wire and running through the adjacent fields and forests for two days before encountering anybody. Only then was he recaptured and taken to a different work camp.
01:22:23 Lanzmann asks Lerner about his family and early childhood. His father was a baker with his own store, where his mother worked. His father was religious enough to have a beard until 1938 when "anti-Semitism became such that the Poles would catch the Jews who had a beard, they would drag them by the beard, [and] they would tear it out." He then talks about the friend with whom he escaped, saying that they had met before leaving on the train. Lerner first talks of his uncanny ability for escape, saying that he was in eight camps in six months. He simply had nothing to lose and didn't want to die of starvation.
FILM ID 3335 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:06 to 02:35:33
Lerner says that he escaped from camps many times, because he would rather die by a bullet than die by starvation. He was beaten often, and bedridden for long periods, yet managed to appear at roll calls so that he would escape the execution that the sick were subject to. Lerner says that he was simply very lucky to survive all of these captures, being taken to a new camp each time and never getting shot.
02:11:14 Lerner tells the story of when he was recaptured by the Germans and placed into the Minsk ghetto. He was far too frail to work, and thus was put, by his Jewish comrades, into the Russian POW camp nearby. All of these Russian prisoners happened to be Jewish. He contracted typhus and was bedridden for several weeks. Once healed, he was taken back to Minsk. Lanzmann then gets into an argument with the translator over the specifics of a certain word.
02:24:25 Lerner tells that one night in September 1943, everyone in the camp was taken by train to Lublin, at what would be Majdanek, when they were told there was no room, the train departed. A Polish train worker told them they were bound for Sobibor to be cremated. Nobody believed the Pole. The occupants of Lerner's railcar had opened a hole in the bottom of the car to use as a toilet, and they could have escaped through there, yet nobody did because they could not believe that they would all be killed. When they arrived at the camp labeled Sobibor, it was too late.
FILM ID 3336 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 03:00:06 to 03:31:45
Lerner says that everyone was herded off the train. The Germans demanded sixty strong people, and reasoning that food would be needed to do hard labor, Lerner volunteered. When not enough people had volunteered, the Germans made some threats and then picked people, all the while running around a flock of geese, their calls meant to cover the cries of the Jews. He was given good clothes and blankets, obviously from the previous convoy, and allowed to eat all he wanted. They would do hard work digging underground munitions warehouses. In talking with other prisoners, he learned that there was no escape from Sobibor. That is precisely why a group of soldiers got together to plan an escape.
03:11:51 Lerner tells of the group of resistors, the group that would try to escape. The head of the committee explained that the last two revolts had failed, and the first group of fifty conspirators was burned alive. If they were to succeed, everything must be kept secret. Jewish craftsmen worked for the Germans performing their trades, such as making the boots and uniforms of the German soldiers, and the group realized that they must use these men to kill off the Germans in the camp. This would be done by using the axes that the carpenters were using to build a new barracks; these would be the only weapons available to the prisoners. More than twenty men, over the course of six weeks, were to plan and execute this. They would kill the sixteen Germans in the camp, a Jewish electrician would cut the electricity and phones. Lerner considered it an honor to be chosen to kill a German.
FILM ID 3337 -- Camera Rolls #10-12 -- 04:00:06 to 04:33:51
Lanzmann asked if Lerner had ever killed before, which he hadn't, and if he was scared about doing it. "Of course," Lerner says, explaining that the realities of the situation forced him to do it because they would all die like lambs if they did not act. The Germans were extremely punctual, and that is how they were able to plan this revolt. Lerner and his comrade, a Soviet POW, would wait in the shadows of the Jewish tailor's room, and the Soviet would strike first with Lerner taking a second blow if necessary. The German entered, a large man named Grischitz. He was closer to Lerner, and therefore he would have to make the first strike. He was terrified.
04:11:08 Lanzmann asks if Grischitz could have expected something like this would happen. Lerner responds that none of the Germans would even imagine such a thing, they were so sure that after killing hundreds of thousands of Jews that they were in complete control. Lerner found his opportunity and swung the ax, splitting Grischitz's skull and killing him instantly. They hid the body, cleaned up the blood, and waited for the next German, who would arrive five minutes later. The second German entered, looked around, and stepped on the outstretched arm of Grischitz's body. As he shouted, the Soviet attacked, and Lerner landed a second blow.
04:22:16 Continuing the story of the last two rolls, the Soviet attacked the second German, and Lerner landed the second blow, causing the ax to spark against the German's teeth, something that affects him to this day. Lanzmann asks how they felt at that moment, to which Lerner replied that he was joyous at the success. Lanzmann comments that Lerner is completely pale, he explains that the feelings all come rushing back, the success, the sorrow for those who died, the satisfaction of avenging them, etc., but saying that he killed as a soldier and never wanted to do so again. One hour after it had began, Germans were dead. They went to roll call to kill the one who called roll. He never came. They gathered with the Ukrainians and fled, scaling the fence. Many died in the minefield, but they reached a weapons warehouse, and armed themselves.
FILM ID 3338 -- Camera Rolls #13 + Coupes (8A,13A,9B,9C) -- 05:00:06 to 05:13:15
Lerner continues the story of his escape from Sobibor. He was outside the camp, in the forest in what was now the evening. All of the emotion had finally gotten to him, he fell and passed out. Lerner tells of the organizer of this revolt, Satchka Petchevski, saying he was a genius and that they owe their lives to him. Lanzmann is still floored by the success of this revolt, planned in such a short time. Considering that there were no other successful revolts such as this, Lanzmann attributes the success to them being soldiers and having had experience with weapons. Lerner agrees in part, and says that their hope of initiative was a major contributor. Lanzmann cuts off the interview, saying that "I don't want him to tell me the rest, because it is too good ... this is another chapter."
05:08:19 Footage of Lerner looking into the camera, slow zoom in.
05:09:16 Footage of Lanzmann on a couch listening intently.

Mordechai (Michael) Podchlebnik recognized the corpses of his wife and children when unloading bodies from a gas van at Chelmno. He was a witness at many postwar trials, including the Eichmann trial. He tells Lanzmann of his escape from Chelmno and how he tried to inform people about Chelmno, but he was not believed at first, until his story was corroborated by another escaped prisoner.
FILM ID 3294 -- Camera Rolls #1-7 -- 01:00:16 to 01:32:27
Lanzmann is seated with Podchlebnik at a table surrounded by windows. Off camera is an interpreter, Fanny Apfelbaum. The tape jumps frequently and the audio is poor. Lanzmann asks about Podchlebnik's past, saying that he looks young. They talk about his experience as an athlete after the war. Lanzmann asks to cut.
01:00:58 Podchlebnik says that before the war, his parents dealt with cattle. The Germans began deporting Jews from his town of Kowo. 01:06:16 Lanzmann asks if Kowo was a Jewish city. Podchlebnik says there were 3,000 Jews there. 01:06:46 Lanzmann asks about Kowo's population. Podchlebnik says that it was an old city, at least 800 years old, populated by about 6,000 people, mostly Jews. The Jews occupied all professions and relations with the Poles were good. Podchlebnik was a cattle tradesman, taking cheap cattle from Kowo to sell in Lodz.
01:11:37 Podchlebnik was married with two children; he was 30 when the Germans invaded. The Germans burned the synagogue, and all men were required to present themselves for work. For a few months, he repaired the bombed out bridges. He says that the Germans did not really create a ghetto but moved some people around to keep Jews in a certain place. After 6 months, they moved half the Jewish population to Loubetski. Podchlebnik worked in a restaurant owned by a Polish friend of his. Meanwhile, he thought the relocation was merely a matter of transferring populations.
01:22:31 Podchlebnik stayed in Kowo with official permission because of his job; everyone else was transported to Bouga. He went there on his own after a few days because of loneliness. 01:27:14 Podchlebnik walked to Bouga, which was not a ghetto but nobody was allowed to leave. The Jews thought nothing of this, leaving for work during the day and always returning. This went on for a year. After that, they were deported to Chelmno.
FILM ID 3295 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 02:00:03 to 02:30:37
25 men were chosen to work at Chelmno, taken in a single truck with an armed jeep following. Podchlebnik describes in detail his arrival at Chelmno. They stayed in the cellar of a courtyard of a castle, getting a little coffee, a little sugar, and a piece of bread each day. He describes the names written on the wall under the inscription "from here no one leaves alive." The first day, 20 were taken to work in the woods. He was among the remaining five. He saw piles of clothing and shoes. He had heard of such things but says that nobody believed it.
02:11:23 Podchlebnik describes the rumors of Jews being killed. He talks about a transport of Jews arriving at Chelmno. They were told that they must go to the bathroom, where they made to undress; they exited from the other side of the building where they were loaded into trucks and taken away to be gassed. After that, he and the four others who remained from those selected for work were forced to gather up the clothes left behind. Lanzmann presses for more details about the gas vans. Podchlebnik says that the 20 men sent to the woods dug graves, and a few did not return because they were killed for not wanting to work.
02:20:36 Podchlebnik describes the state of mind of the men who came back that night. They were exhausted, they had seen family members now dead, and witnessed a Ukrainian killing a man who had survived the gassing. He tells of putting people four in a grave. Ukrainians were the ones who unloaded the gas vans and removed jewelry. The third day of work, Podchlebnik saw his wife and children. He begged to be killed, but the Germans would not do it.
FILM ID 3296 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 03:00:07 to 03:33:46
Lanzmann asks about a report suggesting that workers warmed up using the cadavers. Podchlebnik says he saw no such thing. He describes the set up of the gas vans and the role of the Germans, saying that they would not go near the operation. He tells of one German who noticed that a Jew had a diamond and gold, so he jumped into the van. He was locked inside and gassed with the Jews, he does not know whether or not the Germans knew he was in there. He relates a story told by one of the Poles that one time when the doors of the trucks opened, living Jews fell out. He says that was impossible.
03:06:21 He found a friend and after 10 days, decided he must escape. He begins to tell the story of his escape, where he asked for a cigarette, then used an eating knife to cut through the tarp. Reel ends, a new one begins. He continues, saying that he jumped and entered the woods before the Germans could get their bearings. A Ukrainian found him and asked about another person - his friend had also jumped - he lost him and took a serpentine path. He stayed two days in a barn, hidden from the Germans who were looking for two escapees. He ran to a village and got bread from someone there. He fled to Grabuch and met with some of his wife's family. Nobody wanted to believe him. He met his friend there, and then the town knew and believed him.
03:22:42 Podchlebnik tells of meeting his friend, and that he was so happy that his nose started bleeding, which he cannot explain. After this, his friend insisted on staying in Grabuch and he never saw him again. After his escape, people in Grabuch were chained by the feet, and there was no chance of escape. He later attempted to tell his story to a Jewish Council, and was told if he didn't stop he'd be turned over to the Gestapo.
FILM ID 3297 -- Camera Rolls #14,15,24A -- 04:00:06 to 04:22:44
Later, a Jewish Council member wanted to talk to him, and he came back and refused 3,000 zlotys to tell it. He refused the money but told the story anyhow, which gave him credibility. He organized a train to get many of his relatives out, but they were stopped by the Gestapo and killed.
04:10:01 Podchlebnik says that his whole family died at Chelmno. Lanzmann asks about what died in his soul, and Podchlebnik says that he is glad that he forgets, that it is not good to talk about his experience, but he does so because he feels obligated to. He received books about the Eichmann trial where he was a witness, but did not read them. Lanzmann asks why he is always smiling, he answers "what do you want him to do, cry?" He escaped by grabbing a broom and pretending to work. He got out of the train station and found a relative. He hid in a ghetto outside of Lodz for two years. Once he even passed Auschwitz without knowing it. Parts of this sequence have no video - the scenes chosen to be used in the final Shoah film - the audio remains. 04:21:21 Shots of Lanzmann listening, looking intently.

Lanzmann used a false name and filmed this interview with a hidden camera. See his description of filming Gewecke in his memoir The Patagonian Hare, published 2009 by Farrar Strauss and Giroux, pages 456-457. Gewecke was the Gebietskommissar of Siauliai, Lithuania. In 1971 he was convicted and sentenced to four and a half years in prison for participation in the execution of a Jewish baker for smuggling. Gewecke is evasive about when he arrived in Siauliai, stating that the killing actions there took place "before my time." He claims that he was not a crass anti-Semite and provides as proof the fact that he didn't pursue a legal case when the dog of a Jewish woman bit his wife. He talks about his postwar trial and stresses that the court did not find him to be a perpetrator but rather an administrator.
FILM ID 3298 -- Camera Rolls #1A,1B,2A,2B -- 01:00:14 to 01:32:28
Roll 1A Gewecke sits behind a table in front of a window with Lanzmann and Corinna Coulmas (Lanzmann's interpreter) to his left. Gewecke holds his written responses to the six questions asked by "Dr. Sorel" in his letter and begins to read them out loud. Lanzmann asks Gewecke to begin instead with some biographical information. Gewecke says he arrived in Siauliai, Lithuania as Gebietskommissar on approximately 10 July 1941. Before this he was an NSDAP Kreisleiter in Schleswig-Holstein and a delegate to the Reichstag since 1933. He became an NSDAP party member in 1928, when he was 22 years old. He was sent to Lithuania by Alfred Rosenberg on the recommendation of his Gauleiter, Hinrich Lohse.
Roll 1B 01:11:31 Gewecke mentions Adrian von Renteln, Generalkommissar for Lithuania. Lanzmann asks if Gewecke was happy to be assigned to the East and Gewecke describes himself as a convinced National Socialist, an admirer of Rosenberg and loyal to Lohse. When Lohse died, Gewecke gave the eulogy at his funeral. He shows Lanzmann a letter from Lohse's wife in which she thanks him for the eulogy.
Roll 2A 01:16:09 Gewecke makes reference to an educational institution (Hohe Schule) that educated party members (Ordensjunker) in the NSDAP worldview. These Ordensjunker were then dispatched to help administer the occupied areas, including Lithuania.
Roll 2B 01:22:40 Gewecke's duties included arranging for quarters for the occupying authorities, as well as ghettoizing the Jews of Siauliai. He says that Rosenberg was against a "terroristische Politik" toward the Jews but that Gewecke, Lohse, and Rosenberg were all convinced that the Jews must be ghettoized as they had been before the war. Lanzmann contradicts him on this point but moves on to ask about the structure of the ghetto. Gewecke puts the number of Jews at around 5,000. Lanzmann asks about Gewecke's worldview regarding the Jews, as a committed National Socialist. Gewecke answers that he wants to provide two examples. He tells Lanzmann that he objected to the installation of Der Stuermer kiosks in his home district of Lauenburg. He says he found the crudely antisemitic magazine offensive and counterproductive to the Nazi cause.
FILM ID 3299 -- Camera Rolls #3A,3B,4A,4B -- 02:00:11 to 02:34:23
Roll 3A Closer view of Gewecke. There are several black spots on the image that remain for the rest of the interview. Gewecke could not forbid the Stuermer kiosks, but told Lohse that they should be removed. There was testimony at his trial that confirmed his objection to the Stuermer kiosks. The second point that Gewecke makes in response to Lanzmann's original question about his attitude toward the Jews consists of a story of how his wife was bitten by a dog owned by a Jewish woman, but he did not pursue the matter. He also says that there was no destruction on Kristallnacht in his district (or just in Moelln?) and that the owner of a Jewish business was allowed to emigrate after the Aryanization of his business. He says he does not have more proof for his "tolerance" because there were very few Jews in Moelln. Returning to the original question, Lanzmann asks whether Gewecke was an antisemite or not. Gewecke says he did not exercise his power over the few Jews in Moelln and that he was not a crass antisemite. If he had been he would have risen higher in the power structure.
Roll 3B 02:11:29 Gewecke says that he was an antisemite in the sense that he approved of the NSDAP's platform but that he would never have joined the Party if the platform had explicitly included the destruction of the Jews (Endloesung). As reason for why he joined the Party, he provides more of his biography. He lived in Duesseldorf during the French occupation after World War I, which made him a staunch nationalist and led him to join the NSDAP.
Roll 4A 02:17:29 Lanzmann and Gewecke's daughter exchange some words in French. Gewecke says that he would never have joined the NSDAP if he had known that the end result would be the destruction of the Jews and that if he had been another type of man he would have allowed the killing of the Jews of Siauliai. Lanzmann points out that Hitler talks about extermination (Ausrottung) in Mein Kampf. Gewecke makes a distinction between the NSDAP platform and Mein Kampf, saying that when he joined the NSDAP he knew nothing of Mein Kampf. He says that the Madagascar plan was foiled by the British and the French, and that emigration to Palestine was foiled by the British. If the Madagascar Plan had succeeded it would have been a "peaceful final solution." He says that the Party platform called quite clearly for the exclusion of the Jews from the economy, politics and culture and that at the time in Germany many positions in these areas were held by Jews, because they were so clever and competent. Gewecke says he reads (read also at the time?) books by Werfel, Molnar, and other authors whose books were burned.
Roll 4B 02:23:59 Gewecke continues to talk about why he supported Hitler and the NSDAP. He says many who sit in Bonn today also supported Hitler and that if Hitler had not taken power the KPD would have done so. Lanzmann asks Gewecke whether he believed then and now that the Jews were a danger to Germany. Gewecke says that he thought, along with the Party, that the Jews contributed to the spiritual decomposition of German culture. Lanzmann says that the expulsion of the Jews [from German life] lay at the heart of the Nazi program. Gewecke's wife interjects that Gewecke always told her that the Jews had declared war on Hitler (referring to the January 30, 1939 speech). Gewecke makes reference to a book by Hoggan (The Forced War), which claims that "International Jewry" did declare war on Hitler and that the January 30, 1939 speech to the Reichstag was Hitler's response. (David Hoggan was a Holocaust denier). Lanzmann says that the question is not so simple, perhaps the Jews were simply defending themselves. Gewecke says that despite the debate over the question (he mentions a historian called Diewalt - sp?), he thinks that Hitler was aware of the plan to eliminate the Jews.
FILM ID 3300 -- Camera Rolls #5A,5B,6B -- 03:00:11 to 03:38:33
Roll 5A Gewecke says again that he believes Hitler was aware of the plan to exterminate the Jews, then repeats that he and Rosenberg took a tolerant, non-violent approach toward the Jews, although they were ghettoized, as had been ordered from above. However, it was reported to him that Jews who lived in the larger area were liquidated by the SD. He says again that Rosenberg condemned the destruction of the Jews and that he thinks Himmler was the one responsible. Gewecke says that when he arrived in Siauliai on approximately 10 July the Einsatzgruppen units were already there. He talks about his experience as a Gebietskommissar, referring to the German Wehrmacht as the liberator of the population from the Soviets and says that he himself was greeted as a liberator. No video or audio from 03:11:47 to 03:16:36. Video but no sound until 03:16:57. Gewecke goes on at length about how the German civilian administration respected the autonomy and culture of the local population, then turns to the partisans. Lanzmann attempts to return the focus to the Einsatzgruppen, asking how the actions of the Einsatzgruppen could be compatible with the establishment of the occupation administration, which Gewecke described as defense of the population. Gewecke says that the Einsatzgruppen had already moved through by the time he arrived in Siauliai.
Roll 5B 03:21:46 Lanzmann asks Gewecke to describe [Karl] Jaeger, head of Einsatzkommando 3 and author of the 1941 Jaeger Report about the extermination of the Lithuanian Jews. After first saying that he knew him, Gewecke says he did not have any relationship with Jaeger, nor with almost anyone in the SS. Lanzmann points out that there were killings and deportations in Siauliai as well, but Gewecke says they occurred before his time. He says there could have been only isolated killing actions in Siauliai before his arrival because when he arrived there were 5,000 Jews there. He says there were two ghettos in Siauliai. Gewecke mentions the leather factory, which was overseen by the Reichskommissar, then says he does not know how many Jews were killed before his arrival in Siauliai. Lanzmann points out that the Einsatzgruppen arrived with the Wehrmacht and began killing Jews immediately and starts to say that this was only two weeks before Gewecke's arrival (?).
Roll 6B 03:27:53 Gewecke says that it's remarkable that all of these 5,000 Jews in the Siauliai ghetto survived. He and Lanzmann mention several factories in the area that might have contributed to the survival of the Jews, then Gewecke says that he discovered from Lithuanian collaborators with whom he worked that some within the Lithuanian population hated the Jews and that he assumes that the "famous pogrom" (the Lietukis Garage pogrom) must have been carried out with the collaboration of Einsatzkomando 3. He talks about the killings of Lithuanian Jews committed by Einsatzkommando Tilsit and his wife points out that he was a witness in the 1958 trial in Ulm against ten of these perpetrators. He gives the history of the Ulm trial and Lanzmann makes notes. Lanzmann changes the subject back to the Lietukis Garage pogrom in Kovno but when Gewecke mentions Joachim Hamann, Karl Jaeger's deputy, he asks Gewecke to describe his meeting with Hamann.
FILM ID 3301 -- Camera Rolls #7A,7C -- 04:00:11 to 04:18:40
Roll 7A Lanzmann and Gewecke both appear in the frame at first. Lanzmann looks through documents. Gewecke gives a physical description of how Hamann appeared when he came to see him, then says that Hamann informed him that the Jews in Siauliai were to be liquidated the following day. Gewecke claims that he called his colleague Schultz to be present and then told Hamann that if the SD started killing the Jews he would order the police (Ordnungspolizei) to shoot at the SD. Lanzmann asks whether this was possible. Gewecke says that he was taking a great risk by making this threat and says that Schultz testified to this exchange at the Ulm trial and at Gewecke's trial. He comes back to the question Lanzmann asked, whether he would have or could have carried out his threat against the SD, but the discussion is cut off.
Roll 7C 04:09:51 Lanzmann frames the conflict between the SS and the civil administration in terms of those who wanted to destroy the Jews and those who wanted to make use of Jewish labor. No video or audio from 04:11:21 to 04:12:13. No audio until 04:12:47. Gewecke insists that his objection to the destruction of the Jews was based not just on their usefulness as workers but also on humanitarian grounds. He says he could have offered to let Jaeger kill only those Jews who were not capable of work, but he did not make such an offer.
FILM ID 3302 -- Camera Rolls #8A,8B,8C -- 05:00:11 to 05:18:13
Roll 8A-8B Gewecke continues to make the point that he could have offered to give Hamann all of those Jews who were not capable of work, as other Gebietskommissars did, and that he "rescued" the Jews on humanitarian grounds. He mentions specifically the actions of Erren, the Gebietskommissar from Slonim, among others. Lanzman says that his struggle against the actions of the SD were hopeless, because he knew that the end goal was destruction. His wife, off camera at first, says she was shocked that after Gewecke "rescued" the Jews of Siauliai, "international Jewry" then tried to have him hanged after the war. Lanzmann says he finds this astonishing because he has read a book by a Jewish historian in which Siauliai is mentioned as a special case because so many Jews survived. Gewecke's wife says that they endured an almost year-long trial, "only because one Jew was hanged." They begin to discuss the hanging of the Jewish baker for which Gewecke was tried, but Lanzmann cuts off the discussion to return to the question of the priority of killing the Jews versus preserving useable labor.
Roll 8C 05:13:12 Lanzmann says he is very interested in the struggle between Himmler, who wanted without question to destroy the Jews, and the men who wanted to save Jews because of their usefulness. Again, Gewecke stresses his humanitarian reasons for "saving" the Jews and quotes from witnesses at his trial.
FILM ID 3303 -- Camera Rolls #9A,9B -- 06:00:11 to 06:17:08
Roll 9A Lanzmann asks Gewecke to describe the ghetto. They discuss the structure of the ghetto administration, which was divided between the Gebietskommissar and the SD. Gewecke talks about the Judenrat. He says that he did not have much to do with them but that they were not afraid to come to him and that he offered Mendel, the head of the Judenrat, a place to sit and sat down with him when he came to his office. Audio but no video from 06:04:23 to 06:05:53. Gewecke continues to detail how amazing it was that he offered Mendel a place at the table and sat with him rather than leaving him standing.
Roll 9B 06:08:33 They discuss rations in the ghetto, which Gewecke says were half those received by the Lithuanian population. Lanzmann asks whether people died from starvation and Gewecke says that he is not sure, but thinks it possible that this happened. He says he did not visit the ghetto often but concedes that the conditions there were inhuman. Gewecke reads from a letter he wrote to Lohse in September, 1941, objecting to Jaeger's attempts to confiscate all gold and silver from the Jews.
FILM ID 3304 -- Camera Rolls #10A,10B -- 07:00:11 to 07:17:39
Roll 10A In response to a question from Lanzmann, Gewecke says that the Jewish property that Jaeger wanted to confiscate consisted of gold, jewelry, and furs.
Roll 10B 07:06:41 Image breaks up for the first few seconds. Lanzmann asks Gewecke what he means in the letter that he wrote to Lohse when he speaks of an "orderly seizure" of Jewish goods and Gewecke replies that he meant a legal seizure. He says that he sent goods confiscated from the Jews on to the Reichskommissar in Riga. Lanzmann asks Gewecke about the prohibition on Jewish pregnancies in the ghetto. Gewecke says he knew of the regulation but did not concern himself with enforcing it. He lists other restrictions and rules that Jews were required to follow. He says the Judenrat had authority over the Jewish police and for the Jews. The SD told him that if the smuggling of food did not stop they would liquidate Jews.
FILM ID 3305 -- Camera Rolls #11A,11B -- 08:00:11 to 08:17:57
Roll 11A Gewecke describes the work details that were dispatched from the ghetto to the airport. He quotes from Jewish witnesses at his trial that he never took harsh measures against these forced laborers. Lanzmann asks Gewecke about the yellow work passes in Vilna that determined whether Jews lived or died and he mentions the executions in Ponary. Gewecke denies that the yellow passes existed in Siauliai. Gewecke and his wife laugh as he tells about a Jew with whom Gewecke worked who greeted him with a Hitler salute. Lanzmann asks whether there was a possibility of resistance by the Jews and why the Jews were so passive even in the face of certain death.
Roll 11B 08:12:15 Gewecke says he cannot say because he never saw such things himself, but he has heard that the Jews were very stoic as they went to their deaths. Lanzmann suggests that they were weak and Gewecke says they were certainly physically weak, living on half rations. He then says that the forced laborers from the Siauliai ghetto received better treatment and were in better shape. Gewecke's wife says that the Jews did not live badly. Lanzmann defines the three periods of the ghetto and asks about the Kinderaktion of November 1943. Gewecke says this action, which happened overnight and about which he had no prior knowledge, caused a great sensation.
FILM ID 3306 -- Camera Rolls #12A,12B,12C(13A) -- 09:00:11 to 09:22:56
Roll 12A Some problems with image and sound in the beginning of the roll. Gewecke says that the Kinderaktion came like a bolt from the blue and if he had possessed foreknowledge of it he would fought it with his police force. Bbut then says he had no force of his own but that he had installed the head of the police in his position (?). He again mentions his confrontation with Hamann and speaks at length about the administration of police powers in Lithuania. Lanzmann asks Gewecke to talk about what the concept of "the East" meant to him at the time and means to him now. Lanzmann uses the word Ost, which Gewecke corrects to Ostland, meaning specifically the occupied Baltic territories and some other Eastern territories.
Roll 12B 09:11:54 Gewecke refers to Hitler's explanation of the need for Lebensraum in Mein Kampf and also mentions a book by Hans Grimm. He says that Rosenberg also concerned himself with this idea and that Lebensraum was only available in the East. He quotes Rosenberg about the Bolshevist threat.
Roll 12C (13A) 09:17:28 Lanzmann quotes Heydrich from the Wannsee Conference about the deportation of Jews from West to East. Gewecke says that the Reichsbahn used hundreds of trains to accomplish this. Lanzmann asks Gewecke why the Jews were transported East to be killed, rather than being killed where they were and Gewecke says it was because of the air war with England.
FILM ID 3307 -- Camera Rolls #13B,13C -- 10:00:11 to 10:12:31
Gewecke and Lanzmann discuss the fact that Wilhelm Kube protested strongly against the destruction of the German Jews in Minsk, although he was in agreement with the liquidation of the eastern Jews. They move on to the subject of the Madagascar Plan. Lanzmann points out that Gewecke said he was in favor of the Madagascar Plan and he asks Gewecke what he thinks about the "bitter irony" that the Germans wanted to get rid of their Jews but then found themselves with a huge territory full of Jews. Gewecke consults a book written by Rosenberg and says that Lanzmann must know more about the subject than he does. Lanzmann says that he is trying to understand how the idea for the final solution came about. Sound is intermittent for the last minute or so.
FILM ID 3308 -- Camera Rolls #14A,14B -- 11:00:11 to 11:18:48
Roll 14A Gewecke raises a glass in a toast, no sound. Lanzmann asks Gewecke what he thinks of Germany today, whether it has changed. Gewecke does not think much of the proposals for European unity (referring to the European Economic Community?). He says that Hitler also did some good for the German people. Lanzmann asks him what he thinks of the Jews today, and of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians but Gewecke doesn't answer. Lanzmann asks Gewecke whether he thinks the Jews have changed. Gewecke says he would not visit Israel for fear of legal peril.
Roll 14B 11:10:48 Gewecke says that at his trial he was not convicted as the person who ordered the hanging, but rather as an administrator. One of the witnesses perjured himself and his lawyer considered having him arrested but said instead, "he will have a heart attack and one dead Jew is enough." He says that a Jew who worked for the SD testified that he was present at the hanging but in fact he was not there. He says his was a "political trial." He says he was in jail for 1 ½ years pending his trial.
FILM ID 3309 -- Camera Rolls #15A,15B -- 12:00:11 to 12:17:39
Roll 15A Gewecke says that some Jewish witnesses testified on his behalf at his trial and that in some ways he received a fair trial. Gewecke and his wife say that they were persecuted by the SD for Gewecke's confrontation with Hamann. Gewecke talks about the end of the war and says that the SD took his wife and family, whom he had evacuated earlier, into protective custody. They were freed with the assistance of Reichskommissar Erich Koch.
Roll 15B 12:11:48 They continue to discuss the end of the war. Gewecke says he knew the war was lost but did not want to say it, for fear of being charged by [Roland] Freisler. They discuss Freisler briefly. Gewecke says he never betrayed his oath and Lanzmann asks him what he thinks of the 20th of July plotters. He answers that he considers many of them traitors, and that he considers Canaris a traitor as well.
FILM ID 3310 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Stier Camera Roll #1) -- 14:00:10 to 14:07:12
Mute color shots of two technicians in the van that received the video feed from the hidden camera interview. The technicians watch the image, listen to the sound, and make adjustments. CU on the black and white image. The man being interviewed is Stier.
FILM ID 3311 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Gewecke Camera Rolls #3,3A,0,2) -- 15:00:11 to 15:20:01
Shots of the technicians in the van. This time the image is definitely Gewecke.
FILM ID 3312 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Stier Camera Roll #7) -- 16:00:11 to 16:08:06
Continuation of the scene in the van. One of the technicians adjusts an antenna. Again, the image shows Stier.
FILM ID 3313 -- Camera Rolls #16,19,20,21,8,9,4 -- 13:00:11 to 13:16:25
Mute CUs of Gewecke and his wife and daughter. His wife touches her face nervously. CU of a photograph of men in uniform with a child. LS of a picturesque town by a river (Moelln?). Mute shots of Gewecke eating. Gewecke, Lanzmann, and Corinna on camera.

Richard Glazar, a survivor of Treblinka, is another individual featured prominently in Shoah. In the outtakes, he talks about his Czech heritage, Theresienstadt, his experiences at Treblinka, and witnessing the transports as they arrived from Grodno, Bialystok, Saloniki, and other places. He also describes the prisoner revolt on August 2, 1943 and his escape from the camp.
FILM ID 3314 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:03 to 01:34:05
CR1 Glazar sits on a couch in front of a window. Church bells ring periodically throughout the interview. He talks about his early life: he was born in a small town, Kolin, about 70 miles from Prague. Glazar finished his studies in Prague in 1938. His parents divorced and his mother remarried. His father was deported to Nisko in Octboer 1938 and died there. Lanzmann explains some of the history of Nisko. When the Germans occupied Prague it became too dangerous for Glazar to remain there, so his parents sent him to work as a farm hand in the countryside. His family was assimilated and did not speak Yiddish. Glazar talks about the relations between his extended family members. The farm family for whom Glazar worked during the German occupation knew his grandparents and knew he was Jewish.
01:11:21 CR2 Glazar says that there was antisemitism in Czechoslovakia but he did not suffer from it. Most of his friends were non-Jews (transcript is incorrect and says the opposite). At first they mocked Hitler and his rise in Germany but then they slowly became aware of the threat of nationalism and groups sympathetic to Germany. Lanzmann asks whether his family ever thought of emigrating and Glazar says that his stepfather thought about emigrating to England but decided in the end that it would be too hard to start over with a new life in a new country. Glazar said he only worked, slept, and read books while working on the farm, and that he was not afraid at that time. He stayed on the farm until summer 1942, when he received a notice instructing him to go to Prague to register with the Jewish community organization, which was staffed by German officials. He was made to wear a Jewish star for the first time. He was called for a transport from Prague in September 1942. His parents had been deported to Lodz a year earlier.
01:22:50 CR3 Glazar describes saying goodbye to his parents on the telephone before they were deported. When he received his order to appear for deportation he thought of trying to flee but it was not long after the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich and the Germans were carrying out reprisals against the population. The Jews who were to be deported from Prague waited for two days at the collection point. Glazar did not know where they were going but kept hearing the word Theresienstadt. He knew that some of his relatives had been deported there.
FILM ID 3315 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:04 to 02:34:12
CR4 Glazar talks about his arrival in the Bauschowitz train station outside of Theresienstadt. They had to walk for at least an hour to reach the camp, and there were a large number of old people who were part of the transport. Once at Theresienstadt, he located some of his relatives and visited them. He found that his grandfather was in the hospital after attempting suicide. The hospital was filthy and his grandfather did not recognize him.
02:11:23 CR5 Glazar says that Theresienstadt was not so bad for him. He did not have to work as much as he had when he worked on the farm and he had brought some food with him to supplement his rations. He says that Theresienstadt was another world, a parody. People lived only to see if they would survive. He met people in Theresienstadt who he had known in Prague but never knew that they were Jews. In response to a question from Lanzmann Glazar says that he had nothing to do with the men of the Jewish Council (Aeltestenrat). People in Theresienstadt were afraid of the transports to the East.
02:22:47 CR6 Glazar met various people he had known in Prague, including his religion teacher. He says that the transports to the East caused the greatest fear among the people in Theresienstadt. Lanzmann asks him what the concept of "East" meant to him and he replies that it meant ghettos in Poland where things were even worse and where you might be separated from your family. Almost exactly one month after his arrival he received a deportation order for October 8, 1942. He discovered that an acquaintance of his, Karl Unger, was also to be deported.
FILM ID 3316 -- Camera Rolls #7-10 -- 03:00:00 to 03:30:12
CR7 Glazar says that the Jews in the transport did not know where they were going but presumed they were headed to Poland. He describes their arrival in Treblinka and says the area was littered with clothing and other items. He describes disembarking on the ramp and being divided into groups consisting of men and women and children. They were ordered to undress for disinfection. There are two cuts in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
03:09:29 CR8 Glazar and some others were ordered to get dressed again and he didn't know what that meant. Lanzmann asks him if he had any idea about the nature of the camp but Glazar says he did not know. Glazar and about 18 other men were taken to a barrack where men sorted through masses of the belongings of the murdered Jews. Glazar asked one of the other men what had happened to the others from the transport and was told in Yiddish that they were dead.
03:15:06 CR9 Glazar still had a hard time comprehending that all of the others from the transport were dead. He realized that Karl Unger had also been chosen for a work detail. There is one cut in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
03:19:38 CR10 Glazar and Karl Unger began removing items from the barrack and stacking them in piles in the yard. After working all day they were taken to a barrack where some of the prisoners killed themselves by hanging or by taking poison. There is one cut in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
FILM ID 3317 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 04:00:08 to 04:33:40
CR11 Lanzmann and Glazar are now sitting outside at a table with a bridge and a river visible in the background. Lanzmann asks a question in French and Glazar answers in German. He says that the prisoners did not feel fear exactly, but that they felt like hunted animals. He says there were a couple of times when men who had been selected for work chose instead to go to the gas chamber because their families had been killed. In response to a question from Lanzmann Glazar says that when he saw the mountains of belongings of those who had gone to the gas chambers he believed that these people were dead. He says that those who came in transports from the West were better treated when they arrived.
04:11:20 CR12 Glazar describes the "tube" which connected the undressing area to the gas chambers. They briefly discuss Franz Suchomel, who was in charge of seizing the valuables from Jews (the"Goldjuden Kommando"). They return to the subject of the "tube" and the difference in treatment given the western and the eastern Jews. Glazar says that, because of their different experiences, the eastern Jews knew that the Germans were capable of mass murder while the western Jews did not dream such a thing was possible. He says that once one is naked one is powerless and he describes how the naked men and women stood in the undressing area, with arms crossed to cover themselves.
04:22:33 CR13 Glazar says that the phrase "draussen im Leben" [outside in life; in real life (?)] was used often in Treblinka. He describes the masses of naked women and children who had lost their individuality. One of the Sonderkommando workers once shouted to the people who had just arrived that they were all going to their deaths but he got no reaction. Glazar says that they already began to think of a revolt in November 1942 and he talks about the differences in mentality between the western and the eastern Jews.
FILM ID 3318 -- Camera Rolls #14-16 -- 05:00:04 to 05:35:06
CR14 Glazar continues to talk about how strange he and the other Czech Jews found the Polish Jews when they first arrived. Some of the Polish Jews had gone without food and other necessities in order to try and amass enough dollars to emigrate to the United States. They pause in their conversation while a boat passes by on the river. The camera follows the boat. Glazar describes the process of sorting the clothes and checking them for valuables. There is audio but no video for the last part of this roll.
05:12:49 CR15 Glazar says the Polish Jews had developed the habit of hoarding as many portable valuables as they could because of the pogroms and persecutions they had suffered in the past and consequently their clothing contained the most valuables, a fact not lost on the SS. He says the poor villagers around the camp also had valuables stolen from the Jews, and that prostitutes operated in the area for the SS and the Ukrainians. He says that a whole economy based on the camp developed in the area.
05:23:53 CR16 Glazar says the prisoners who worked in the sorting Kommando also hoarded valuables in case they needed them. He describes the process by which the new arrivals were stripped of documents, clothing, and valuables. The valuables were placed in mailbox-like boxes. Four times per day the valuables would be collected by members of the Goldjuden Kommando, which consisted mostly of jewelers. Eventually everyone was skimming money and valuables from the seized assets, and that Glazar and Karl Unger buried about 100,000 dollars worth of goods that they never recovered. He describes the variety of items seized from the Jews.
FILM ID 3319 -- Camera Rolls #17,18 -- 06:00:03 to 06:18:54
CR17 Prisoners stole gold and other valuables for various reasons, including for the preparation of the revolt. Glazar tells the story of a dentist who was caught by Kurt Franz with valuables in his possession. Franz beat the dentist to death and threatened to kill all of the members of the "Goldkommando" but did not do so.
06:07:40 CR18 Glazar says that the prisoners assumed that Franz did not murder the members of the Goldkommando because Stangl ordered him not to kill prisoners capable of work. Lanzmann asks whether the SS men stole money and specifically whether Suchomel, commander of the "Goldjuden," stole money. Glazar found out after the war that the Germans plowed up the grounds of the camp after it was destroyed in search of valuables, and that even long after the war Poles would dig for gold. Lanzmann asks Glazar to talk about the fact that their lives were dependent upon a steady stream of transports arriving at the camp. Glazar says their lives were only partially dependent on the transports and goes on to describe a period of a few months in early 1943 when there were no transports and the entire camp was empty. The prisoners had to survive solely on the meager rations from the camp kitchens until a transport from the Balkans arrived in the second half of March. Suddenly the camp was full of food again.
FILM ID 3320 -- Camera Roll #21 -- 07:00:04 to 07:11:20
Glazar repeats the story of the "still" period in the first part of 1943, between the large transports from Grodno and Bialystok in early January and the transport from the Balkans, which did not arrive until the last half of March. The prisoners were very hungry and the SS devised work for them to do, such as regrading the sloped area where they sorted the clothing and other belongings from incoming transports. When Kurt Franz announced that the next day another transport would arrive, the prisoners' first thought was that they would have food once again. Only secondarily were they relieved because they feared for their lives without incoming transports to make them useful to the Germans. Glazar also mentions that they were at that time fully occupied with planning the uprising and they wanted to survive until they could initiate the revolt. He describes the people in the March transport, who were Balkan Jews who had come from a camp in Salonika. Unlike previous transports, these people were healthy and strong and they had no idea that they were about to be put to death. Glazar describes a feeling of powerlessness and shame as he and the other members of the Sonderkommando began stealing as much food as they could.
FILM ID 3321 -- Camera Rolls #22-26 -- 08:00:04 to 08:27:45
CR22 Sound on this tape is muddy. The Balkan transport made the members of the Sonderkommando realize that they were an integrated part of the machinery of death at Treblinka. Sound but no image from 08:01:28 to 08:01:51. After the cut Glazar is still talking about the Balkan transport and how this transport made the prisoners realize their role in the death machinery. He says the realization didn't come all at once, but that never before had the disposal of a transport run so smoothly. The prisoners spoke to each other about the feeling of shame and disgrace and this feeling spurred them on in planning the revolt. There are two cuts in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
08:07:37 CR23 Lanzmann asks what the SS were doing during the two month quiet period in early 1943 and Glazar says that half the camp was sick with typhus during this period. Glazar waits to continue speaking because a loud boat is passing on the river. Lanzmann finally turns around and tells the cameraman to cut. There is one cut in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
08:12:44 CR24 Glazar says that after the transports from the Balkans there came another quiet period. The SS began rebuilding and dismantling parts of the camp and the prisoners began to worry. Lanzmann asks Glazar whether he thought that perhaps there were no more Jews left in Europe to destroy and Glazar says that they thought that at the time but they didn't think that all of the Jews of Europe had been destroyed at Treblinka. They did not know about Auschwitz but they knew about Belzec, Sobibor, and Trawniki.
08:17:49 CR26 (there does not appear to be a camera roll #25) Glazar describes the physical dimensions of Treblinka. Although it was relatively small, it had enormous capacity to kill people. Lanzmann and Glazar discuss the short distance between the part of the camp where people were murdered and the part where those chosen for work lived, and how the division between the two parts was maintained. Glazar says he thinks it was planned that way to reduce the number of witnesses, including witnesses in the SS.
FILM ID 3322 -- Camera Rolls #27-30 -- 09:00:07 to 09:23:25
CR27 Glazar talks about an opera singer who was forced to sing for the SS. One night the singer sang a song in Yiddish while the prisoners watched the fires that were burning the exhumed corpses of those killed on arrival. This opera singer put together a small prisoner orchestra. Lanzmann mentions that Suchomel told him about a "Treblinka hymn" and Glazar says that this was Kurt Franz's idea and that the prisoners were forced to sing the song several times a day. He recites a few lines from the song, which Lanzmann terms bitterly ironic. There is one cut in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
09:09:27 CR28 Glazar says that Treblinka was full of sounds: screaming, yelling, and also singing. He never saw a bird or heard bird song in Treblinka and one was never alone, always a member of a crowd.
09:12:28 CR30 (clapper reads Roll 30; transcript calls this Roll 29) The prisoners dressed in clothes taken from the people on incoming transports. Glazar describes what he wore, including riding boots, which he kept shined in order to make an impression on the SS. When the clothes got dirty or torn they would choose new ones. It occurred to Glazar one day, when he was contemplating exchanging his flea-ridden pajamas, that perhaps his "new" pajamas had not yet arrived in Treblinka, that they were on their way to the camp in a transport. There were fleas in the summer and lice in the winter, and with the lice came typhus. There was no way to get rid of them. Glazar describes their crowded sleeping conditions. He says there was never any quiet in Treblinka and repeats that one was never, ever alone in the camp.
FILM ID 3323 -- Camera Rolls #30A-32 -- 10:00:07 to 10:25:45
CR30A (this correlates to Roll 30 in the transcript and on the clapperboard) Glazar describes the so-called "Hofjuden" (court Jews), who wore special armbands and assisted the SS and the Ukrainian guards. He mentions for the second time a 14 year old boy named Edek (?) who played the accordion for the SS. He talks about the infirmary Kapo, Kurland (?), who was a well-respected man and one of the initiators of the revolt. The infirmary did not function as a hospital but was used as an execution place for prisoners. Audio but no video for a few seconds. Glazar says he witnessed [Unterscharfuehrer August] Miete shoot a pregnant woman who had gone into labor. There is one cut in this camera roll, where footage used in the final film was removed.
10:09:40 CR31 The camera angle has changed so that Lanzmann faces the camera and Glazar has his back to it. The sound is a bit muddy. Lanzmann asks Glazar to expand on the concept of the Hofjuden (court Jews) and Glazar says it is a concept from the Middle Ages and that the Hofjuden cleaned boots, SS quarters, etc. Later they did not wear armbands anymore. The camera zooms in on Lanzmann until Glazar is no longer in the frame. Lanzmann asks whether the Hofjuden were privileged and Glazar says that they were privileged in the first period of the camp, because they did not have to do the worst work. He says that the Kapos were chosen by chance, but that those who were chosen were often leaders, such as Zelo Bloch. He mentions the husband and wife Kapos, the Blaus, and two father and son partnerships.
10:20:58 CR32 Glazar says that the Kapos did not treat the other prisoners badly and in fact protected them when they could. The Kapos punished prisoners who did not share food with the others or who did not behave well toward their fellow inmates.
FILM ID 3324 -- Camera Rolls #33-37 -- 11:00:06 to 11:32:38
CR33 The interview is now taking place indoors. Glazar sits in front of a window. He says that the infirmary was undoubtedly located so close to the arrival ramp so that the weak and the ill could be easily sent there for execution. He says that in a transport there might be four or five such people and that sometimes these included children who had become separated from their parents. The "slaves" such as Glazar, who worked in Treblinka, also met their ends at the infirmary, rather than in the gas chamber. He says that for some reason, the SS men were much more prone to execute those workers who were "stamped": who had been whipped and had visible wounds on their faces. August Miete, the SS man in charge of the infirmary was nicknamed the "angel of death." Glazar accompanied new arrivals, including some who were half dead and had to be carried, from the transport to the infirmary. When the pits near the infirmary were full they erected a pyre to burn the bodies.
11:10:16 CR34 Glazar says that in contrast to Auschwitz, where there were actual crematoria, at Treblinka the disposal of the corpses took place in the open air on enormous pyres built of railroad track. He says again that in most cases when the workers were killed they were killed at the infirmary but then he tells of one exception to this, when, in approximately February 1943 a sixteen year old was shot in front of the other workers in the sorting area for neglecting to remove a Star of David badge from a coat as he had been ordered to do. Glazar assumes that the removal of the stars was ordered because the clothing was meant for people in Germany and the SS wanted to hide the fact that the clothing came from Jews.
11:18:05 CR35 Glazar says that in Treblinka the prisoners dreamed that it was all a nightmare and that they would wake or that the world would realize what was happening and come to stop it. He says the worst thing was that they felt abandoned by the whole world.
11:21:25 CR36 Glazar says that they were afraid that the world would never learn what happened in Treblinka.
11:22:47 CR37 Glazar says that the fear that they would all be killed and the world would never know what happened to them drove them to organize the uprising, so that there would be witnesses to tell the world. Lanzmann asks him whether this was an actual fear at the time or whether this was something they felt later. Glazar says that yes, they were afraid nobody would survive to tell of what happened. Lanzmann asks whether they thought about escaping and Glazar tells of an escape plan that never came to pass and two prisoners who did manage to escape with the help of him and some of the other prisoners. It appears that one of the escapees to which Glazar refers is Abraham Bomba. Glazar says that he and Karl Unger both believed that they would survive and this belief probably contributed to their survival.
FILM ID 3325 -- Camera Rolls #37-39 -- 12:00:06 to 12:33:33
CR37 (Roll 37 appears twice on the clapper and in the transcript) Glazar says that another key to surviving in Treblinka was to attempt to live as though you were living a normal life by shaving, washing, brushing your teeth, etc, and each time you succeeded at some small thing such as procuring some water and shaving it was as if you had won a battle. He says the revolt had been planned since November 1942 but kept being postponed due to various circumstances. He expands further on the question of who survived in Treblinka, saying that luck and chance also played a role.
12:11:13 CR38 Glazar begins the story of the revolt, the first step of which took place when Edek, the young accordion player, stuck a piece of metal in the lock of the ammunition storehouse. The door was sent to the locksmith to be repaired and the locksmith made an extra key. The prisoners decided that the uprising should take place on August 2, 1943. Glazar mentions the transports carrying the survivors (although half of them were dead on arrival) from the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and a transport of 400 Roma. He says it occurred to him at that point that after all of the Jews had been murdered the Nazis would use Treblinka to kill the other "subhuman" groups. In the weeks before the uprising the SS had fixed up the camp and the train station. Lanzmann asks whether the SS had any inkling that the revolt was about to happen but Glazar is not sure. He says an absurd thing happened a week before the revolt: Kurt Franz ordered that the SS organize a cabaret, and one of the sketches featured a boxing match between two Jews.
12:22:24 CR39 Glazar describes the cabaret, which included the aforementioned boxing match as well as a sketch that advertised Treblinka as a spa where one could breathe fresh air and receive care in the hospital. Lanzmann asks whether anyone laughed at this sketch and Glazar says no one, not even the SS laughed. Franz ordered another boxing match between two of the "Scheisskapos" (the prisoners who worked in the latrines), and then the Jews sang songs, the last one being a song from "The Jewess from Halevi" which contains lyrics about vengeance ("Raecher ich weihe dich dem Tode ein.") Stangl turned around and looked at the Jews and at that moment Glazar thought he might have a premonition about the revolt that was to come. He says that almost all of the prisoners were aware of the revolt, including the twelve women who worked in the SS laundry.
FILM ID 3326 -- Camera Rolls #40-43 -- 13:00:09 to 13:32:56
CR40 Glazar goes into more detail about the revolt. He says that as of February 1943 not more than 50 of the approximately 600 prisoners had military training or were otherwise familiar with the use of weapons. He goes on to describe the plan itself and the events in the days leading up to the uprising. Glazar mentions a man named Stanislaw Lichtblau, who played a heroic role in the revolt.
13:11:14 CR41 Glazar describes how the revolt transpired. They saw one of the prisoners who they knew to be an informer talking to SS man Kurt Kuettner so they started the revolt early. Lichtblau blew himself up along with a gas tank. Glazar says the revolt succeeded in part because the barracks were destroyed. But then they had no more ammunition and were being shot like rabbits by the SS and especially by the Ukrainian guards. He says the whole uprising lasted about fifteen minutes. He escaped over a fence and jumped into a pond to hide himself. At some point he realized that Karl Unger was with him. They hid in the water until late at night and then fled. They saw that parts of the camp were on fire. They ran all night and then hid themselves and slept once it began to get light. They had a plan to go back to Moravia and join the partisans. For several days they slept during the day and walked at night.
13:22:16 CR42 Glazar says that ever since they had seen Treblinka in flames he and Karl Unger had felt that they were human again and no longer felt any fear. When they asked for help from the Poles they knew better to say that they were Jews, but instead said they had escaped from prison and were fleeing the Germans. They swam across the Vistula and finally worked up the courage to begin travelling during the day. They were arrested by a forester who thought they were partisans.
13:26:53 CR43 When they got near Warsaw they did not know how to proceed further because there were German soldiers everywhere. They got the idea to cross a German shooting range. They succeeded but then were arrested by the forester. They told the forester that they were Czech volunteers working for Organisation Todt and had been robbed by partisans. Glazar says that such a story was quite believable at the time. The sound stutters a bit at the very end of the reel.
FILM ID 3327 -- Camera Rolls #44-46 -- 14:00:06 to 14:28:11
CR44 The frame now includes Lanzmann and Glazar seated on a sectional sofa. Glazar's dog lies down next to him on the couch. The camera moves in to include only Glazar and the dog. Glazar says that after their arrest the Polish police didn't know what to do with them so they put them in jail for the night. As they were led through the street someone yelled to the policeman, "Who are you arresting? Some Jews to be shot?" and the policeman answered, "No, maybe just partisans." The next day they were sent to Tomaszow Mazowiecki and interrogated by Poles and ethnic Germans. They were jailed and interrogated for three weeks but stuck to their story. One day their jailers asked for volunteers to work and they were set to the task of cleaning up the completely destroyed Jewish ghetto of Tomaszow Mazowiecki. Glazar says that they asked where the Jews were taken and the policeman who was watching them said he didn't know, but he and Karl Unger knew where they had been sent.
14:06:05 CR45 He and Karl soon realized that they would either be sent to Auschwitz or to forced labor in Germany. They were sent to Mannheim, Germany by way of Vienna. When they arrived in Mannheim the city was badly damaged. They went to work at the Heinrich Lanz AG factory which was producing armaments. He and Karl received clothing to wear and realized (speculated?) that the coats must have come from Treblinka. They were housed with Ukrainians who reminded them of the Ukrainian guards in Treblinka.
14:17:06 CR46 When Karl and Glazar arrived at their housing in Mannheim they heard a Ukrainian song coming from the barracks, which brought memories of Treblinka back to them. Glazar sings two Ukrainian songs, which bring tears to his eyes, maybe for the first time in the interview. He and Karl falsified their papers to indicate that they were Czechs who had volunteered for work in Germany. Because they did very hard work in the smithy at the factory, they were entitled to better rations nd they also got some food from their many German girlfriends. Lanzmann asks whether they felt hatred toward the Germans but Glazar says no, that the Germans they met were not like the SS from Treblinka. They never spoke of the Jews to their German friends and they saw no Jews in Mannheim. They thought perhaps they were the last two Jews left. They were happy about every bomb that fell on Mannheim. By March 1945 the factory was destroyed and the city of Mannheim was almost empty.
FILM ID 3328 -- Camera Rolls #47-54 -- 15:00:06 to 15:34:02
CR47 Glazar and Unger were liberated by the Americans and were interrogated for two days before they were brought before a Jewish officer, who said that he believed their story and asked Glazar to pray in Hebrew. Glazar recited the only prayer in Hebrew that he knew, the Sabbath prayer over bread and wine. At Lanzmann's request he recites the prayer. Lanzmann asks if they took any money from Treblinka and Glazar says that both he and Unger took diamonds, which they hid in shaving soap. After the war both he and Karl had the diamonds set in rings which their wives wear. He shows Lanzmann the shaving kit and soap and his wife's ring. Lanzmann holds the ring and the camera focuses on it for several seconds.
15:07:52 CR48 and CR49 Lanzmann says that Suchomel spoke admiringly of the Czech group. Glazar says that the SS had a sort of respect for them, especially for Zelo Bloch and Rudolf Masaryk, who was a half-Jew who had voluntarily accompanied his Jewish wife to Treblinka and who looked more Aryan than the SS. He says that the discussion after the war is always about why the Jews didn't offer more resistance.
15:11:12 CR50 Glazar says that the SS and especially Suchomel admired Rudi Masaryk. Lanzmann asks him whether he had pity for the Polish Jews. Glazar says that the Polish Jews were very foreign to him and he had never seen such poor people as those who came from Poland and Russia. In response to a question from Lanzmann he says that the prisoners in Treblinka did hear about the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and then the surviving Jews arrived at the camp. Glazar says the majority of workers in Treblinka were Polish Jews. There were only 18 Czechs. Glazar talks about the ability or inability of the Jews to respond violently when their lives were threatened by the Germans.
15:21:34 CR51 Glazar begins to tell a story about how Kurt Franz chose two men to be so-called "Scheisskapos," dressed by the SS in kaftans and rabbi's hats, who would make sure that prisoners spent no longer than two minutes in the latrine and did not speak to each other while using the toilet. The camera is focused on Lanzmann as he listens to Glazar.
15:23:38 CR52 Glazar continues the story of the two "Scheisskapos," one of whom would play an important roll in the uprising.
15:26:05 CR53 Glazar says that one of the two "Scheisskapos" allowed members of the resistance to use the latrine as their headquarters.
15:30:39 CR54 Lanzmann asks Glazar whether there were many religious items in Treblinka. Glazar says religious items were the only items not sorted, that they were considered trash and were burned in the infirmary.
FILM ID 3329 -- coupes peniches bagues -- 16:00:20 to 16:07:54
Mute shots of the river with a barge passing under a bridge. Mute shots of Glazar and Lanzmann sitting at a table overlooking the river. Mute shots of Lanzmann indoors as he listens to Glazar. CUs of the diamond ring and the shaving kit.
FILM ID 3330 -- chutes peniches -- 17:00:06 to 17:01:39
Mute shots of boats on the river.

Karl Kretschmer was Obersturmführer with Einsatzgruppe 4a (Babi Yar) and wrote an infamous letter to his wife and children about the killings. In this hidden camera interview, Kretschmer is very reluctant to talk. Lanzmann asks about Babi Yar and Kretschmer says he wasn't there. He says he doesn't remember what his letter said since he doesn't have them any more. Kretschmer says he was struck by the fact that the Jews put up no resistance at mass shootings.
FILM ID 3246 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:00 to 01:12:37
Lanzmann sits in a hotel room reading some papers, preparing for a secretly taped interview with Kretschmer. The sound engineer, Bernard Aubouy, is also in the room. Lanzmann takes off his jacket and shirt and the technician fits him with the hidden camera. The camera is held in place on Lanzmann's left side by a strap around his chest. The technician helps him with his shirt and tie, and they speak in French as Lanzmann continues to dress. Lanzmann picks up a document from a table and reads aloud (a French translation of Kretchmer's letter to his family in September 1942 about Babi Yar). Lanzmann sits down and continues to read the letter and others aloud. He finishes reading the letters and picks up and studies a photo of Kretschmer (the viewer cannot see the photo). Lanzmann reads the letters aloud again on camera roll 3. [See departmental files for detailed description and some translation of this tape.]
FILM ID 3247 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 02:00:00 to 02:31:09
The video and audio are both in and out for the first couple of minutes of the interview. The audio levels continue to be inconsistent. We see Kretchmer first at about two minutes into the tape. Lanzmann reminds Kretschmer that he was here once before. Kretschmer says that he cannot talk because he was workers in the house that day. He confuses Lanzmann's film project with "Holocaust," asking Lanzmann if it hasn't already been shown. Lanzmann says he has nothing to do with "Holocaust" but asks what Kretschmer thought of it. Lanzmann says that he really wants to talk to Kretschmer about the letters that he wrote to his wife and children, and he also wants to talk about Babi Yar. He offers to pay Kretschmer. Kretschmer, still standing in his doorway, says that he finds the subject repugnant and wants to be finished with it. He lists several postwar legal proceedings against him. Lanzmann points out that he was a member of Einsatzgruppe C and Kretschmer agrees but continues to talk about the many times he was imprisoned by different occupation authorities after the war. Lanzmann points out that Kretschmer has no more risk now and asks him about Babi Yar, to which Kretchmer answers that he was not there at [the time of the shooting] but arrived later, in 1942. Lanzmann counters that Kretschmer saw many shootings, about which he wrote to his family. Lanzmann asks if this was a great burden on Kretschmer's soul [seelische Belastung]. In response to a question from Lanzmann Kretschmer says that in the occupied territories, the definition of a saboteur was pushed very far. Lanzmann says that small children were not saboteurs and asks whether Kretschmer was a father. Lanzmann reminds Kretschmer that he wrote about witnessing a big massacre and that he said it was very difficult. Kretschmer says that he no longer has the letters and he can't remember exactly what he wrote. Lanzmann asks Kretschmer if he knew [Paul] Blobel, head of Sonderkommando 4a in Einsatzgruppe C. Kretschmer says he knows the name, but that Blobel was no longer there when he arrived. Kretschmer says that he doesn't want to talk about any of this anymore, but Lanzmann asks him how many Jews he saw murdered. Kretschmer answers that he did not stand there with a diary and count. Lanzmann asks Kretschmer why, in his opinion, the Jews did not revolt.
No video from 02:11:08 to 02:19:58. Lanzmann tells Kretschmer that he himself is a Jew. Kretschmer says he was struck by the fact that the Jews did not revolt. He says again that he wants to stop talking but Lanzmann says that Jews today want to understand what happened. He asks Kretschmer how many people were in the Einsatzgruppen, whether he was ever in Kulmhof [Chelmno], and whether he saw the gas vans. He continues to question Kretschmer, who says that he wants to stop, he must go back to the renovation work on his house. Lanzmann offers to pay Kretschmer "Jewish money." He makes a play on words, saying that the offer is "nicht Sonderkommando, aber Sonderangebot." Kretschmer asks Lanzmann if he is filming. Lanzmann offers money again, then offers to give Kretschmer's wife a fur coat [Persianer]. Kretschmer laughs at this. Lanzmann asks Kretschmer if he is still against the Jews, and Kretschmer answers no, although he is not pleased by what is happening in "Arabien" (meaning the Middle East?). He denies that he is now or ever was an antisemite. He tries again to end the conversation and Lanzmann asks where Kretschmer's wife is, then again offers Kretschmer money to continue the interview. He says that they must continue. Lanzmann asks Kretschmer if he still has faith in Hitler and Kretschmer says no, that in the end he realized they were all crazy. He tells Lanzmann to bury his hopes of getting an interview with him and Lanzmann tells him that he will return. Lanzmann speaks French with his collaborators.
02:19:59 Lanzmann and his female translator walk up to Kretschmer's house. They are now being filmed from across the street. The camera zooms in and for most of the interview shows only Kretschmer. Lanzmann opens the door and calls into the house, saying that he has a proposition for Kretschmer. Kretschmer closes the door and comes out onto the porch. Lanzmann offers him 2,000 DM for a one hour interview. He says that he wants a commentary on the letters that Kretschmer wrote. He quotes from one of the letters and asks for clarification on Kretschmer's assertion that the war was a Jewish war. Kretschmer says that they were convinced by Goebbels and by constant propaganda, and that what he believed then and what he believes now are completely different. Lanzmann points out that Germany was at war with America and Russia, not the Jews, and Kretschmer answers that the American government was full of Jews, just like it is today. Lanzmann asks why Kretschmer wrote in 1942 that there were no more Jews in Russia, did this mean that all of the Jews were destroyed? Kretschmer denies knowledge of how the Jews disappeared from Russia. Eventually Kretschmer agrees that the executions were a burden on the soul, but he says he will give no further clarification. Lanzmann reads a further quote from a letter to Kretschmer's wife, in which he says that he will not be able to get a fur coat for her after all, because the Jews who deal in furs are no longer alive. Lanzmann asks Kretschmer to explain a joke about Blutwurst that he made in one of the letters. Lanzmann says that he believes that Kretchmer meant that after an execution it was impossible to eat Blutwurst. Kretschmer finally ends the conversation by going inside and shutting the door, while Lanzmann tells him that it is perhaps his last chance to speak and think about these things. Lanzmann and his translator walk away from the house and then stand together looking up at a (religious?) statue that adorns the side of the house. The camera holds a shot of the house for about 1 minute 20 seconds.

As a representative of the Swiss Red Cross in 1944, Maurice Rossel was asked to inspect Theresienstadt. He admits that he gave Theresienstadt a clean bill of health and would probably do so again today. He was also given a tour of Auschwitz, which he did not realize was a death camp. Lanzmann's questioning points to the degree to which Rossel and others were manipulated by the Nazis and to what extent they were willing to be fooled because of their own politics and prejudices. This interview is the basis of Lanzmann's 1999 documentary "A Visitor from the Living" [Un vivant qui passe].
FILM ID 3248 -- Camera Rolls #1,2,3 -- 01:00:12 to 01:33:53
Dr. Rossel is seated in a chair in what appears to be his library, with Lanzmann facing him, back to the camera (when he is on-screen). There are frequent audio problems, with the microphone and also with off-screen distractions. Dr. Rossel explains that beginning in 1942, he was with the International Red Cross, choosing to work for them rather than be in the Swiss army. He was in Berlin with a handful of other Swiss. He stresses that the POW camps were much different than the camps for civilian internees. Statistics for survival in the different camps are mentioned. For POWs, he says that the Germans abided by the Geneva conventions. He explains the purpose of the International Red Cross versus the national versions. He also condemns the Swiss Red Cross for picking sides, sending help only to the Germans on the eastern front.
01:12:15 Dr. Rossel discusses the stance of the Swiss people during the war, saying that they feared communism more than Hitler. He talks about how they would get German military escorts to take them to the camp and guide them to the proper people within each camp. His was a major who often brandished his war medals in order to get what was necessary. He had to talk to the elected leader of the prisoners, as well as a leader of the officers. They moved into a house owned by a German actress, which was wonderful.
01:22:41 Dr. Rossel says that he saw the horrible conditions of the POWs working in the mines of Silesia, and that they were geographically close to the concentration camps. He says that while the camps had become extermination camps, they were simply for political prisoners before the war, and even the French ran a similar camp at the base of the Pyrenees. He insists, sometimes convolutedly, that he had no knowledge of the exterminations even though the prisoners they had spoken to had most definitely heard the rumors of it. The word "extermination" was never spoken, and often they had to swap goods for the right to access the places that they were required to visit. He used such goods to access Auschwitz in 1943.
FILM ID 3249 -- Camera Rolls #4,5 -- 02:00:12 to 02:23:09
Dr. Rossel tells of his trip to Auschwitz. He was able to enter because he had played the fool, unaware that he was forbidden there by both the Germans and his own organization. He met with who he perceived as the camp commander, who carried himself with such pomp that he must have been in command. He asked if the Red Cross could supply their infirmary and asked to see some of the prisoners. He was forbidden to see any prisoners, but was allowed to supply the infirmary if they wanted. They did indeed, though he admits it made little impact.
02:11:28 Audio quality is poor at times. Dr. Rossel talks about these packages that not only made it into Auschwitz, but came back with receipts. The receipts had not only the signature for whom the package was sent, but many other signatures, allowing more packages to be sent to those prisoners. This was the only way more packages could be sent because prisoner lists were not available, and only packages sent to specific people would be received. He saw prisoners, describing them as walking skeletons with only their eyes alive, whom he reported in vain. However, knowledge was limited, especially knowledge that was fully comprehended and accepted, and he never saw the glows of the furnaces nor smelled the burning that is so often reported. The acquisition of knowledge was conflicted, at best. He had wanted to know more, that is why he went back so often with these packages, and yet, he wanted to know as little as possible because of the horrors of life there. Fear kept him away, and morbid curiosity kept him coming back.
FILM ID 3250 -- Camera Rolls #6-10 -- 03:00:18 to 03:34:02
Rossel was present for a tour of Theresienstadt, which was requested by the International Red Cross and allowed by the Germans. Unfortunately, it was a planned visit, and therefore very fake. Everything was a front, says Rossel, and most of the prisoners there were people of importance, and all of them were very passive. He took plenty of photos, which was allowed, but shows how staged everything was. He was not allowed to see the camp of "common prisoners" nearby.
03:11:31 Lanzmann assures Rossel that this was indeed a farce, part of the Verschoenerungsaktion [beautification action]. Rossel is not surprised, though at the time of the tour he figured it was indeed a camp, just one for privileged people. Lanzmann says that he has the records of everything they did to improve this ghetto for the deception, including the rehearsals of the visit. Lanzmann asks him why he did not see through this sham in the first place, as he mentions nothing unusual in his reports.
03:22:49 Lanzmann continues to push the topic of Rossel not reporting anything out of the ordinary. He does ask about his only negative comment, that of overcrowding, even though just before his arrival, 5000 people were deported and immediately gassed to create more space. Lanzmann continues to explain all these things that had been changed, including the makeshift synagogue. He then talks about the realities of Auschwitz and Rossel says little, appearing stunned at these things, emotionally affected by what Lanzmann says. Rossel has trouble returning to his thoughts from that day so long ago, and Lanzmann struggles for answers to his questions. Rossel simply did not speak up about his true impressions.
FILM ID 3251 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 04:00:10 to 04:33:59
Lanzmann continues asking specifics of Rossel concerning his report of Theresienstadt. Rossel called the economy of the camp "Stalinist", which was quite rare considering the term was not really in use at that point. He was told and therefore reported that wages were given in Theresienstadt that were low, but sufficient considering that many things were provided for without cost. Rossel says hat he was and still is astonished by the passivity of the Jews. Nobody gave any sign that anything was wrong with their situation, not one tip-off or clue, which was quite unusual considering that every other POW camp would have such occurrences. Rossel says that reports had to be objective and could not be open for interpretation, hence his lack of speaking up. Lanzmann asks about some odd wordings, and Rossel tells him that it is concerning the problem of racial segregation, something that made the Swiss hate the Third Reich.
04:11:31 Rossel explains that he left the Red Cross after the end of the war. He began to bury these memories, unable to handle the things he knew. Much of his memories came back only with Lanzmann's talking. He did not even tell his daughters. He says that he never did like the Germans, and is horrified by all regimes of the extreme right. Lanzmann reads him an excerpt of a speech given by Eppstein, the leader of the prisoners of Theresienstadt; it seems to affect Rossel deeply. Rossel says that he still stands behind his report based upon the circumstances under which it was written.
04:22:46 Rossel explains that the International Red Cross had no choice but to go to this farcical visit. They had asked for permission to have such a visit for so long, had been denied for so long, and then suddenly were allowed, there was no other option for them. The International Red Cross knew the same as the governments of all the other nations, that things were happening, and yet, they could not protest based on that knowledge because of the POWs who would have suffered instead.
04:27:42 Rossel says that all Germans were "Hitlerites," and it is wrong to try and separate the two. He also says that, in photos that he has kept, the French had instances where they were just as bad as the Germans with their treatment of POWs. People, he says, "cling to the massacre of the millions of Jews." He condemns the film for which he is interviewing because it will give a distorted picture, focusing on the Jews. He asks about the Russians and others, considering that the Russians did not sign any of the Geneva conventions and believed that the prisoners deserved to die because they had not fought to the death. He also mentions the hatred towards the nations that did not accept refugees, and cites other nations, including Switzerland, which also refused to accept anyone. Lanzmann changes the subject back to medicine, and the roll ends.
FILM ID 3252 -- Camera Rolls #14,15 - 05:00:13 to 05:03:37
Lanzmann is seated in Rossel's library, paper in hand, reading the speech that Dr. Eppstein gave to his fellow people in Theresienstadt. A touching piece comparing them to a ship that waits to enter the harbor but cannot. Only the captain knows the way in, and he must ignore the rigged distractions from the coast. The ship must stay there and wait for orders; the people must have faith in them. Eppstein was killed two days later.
05:01:32 Lanzmann is again seated in Rossel's library, paper in hand, reading the speech that Dr. Eppstein gave to his fellow people in Theresienstadt. This time, he prefaces the speech with background information, and addresses it to be read specifically to Dr. Rossel. A touching piece comparing them to a ship that waits to enter the harbor but cannot. Only the captain knows the way in, and he must ignore the rigged distractions from the coast. The ship must stay there and wait for orders; the people must have faith in them. Eppstein was killed two days later. Lanzmann struggles to put the paper away, describes the text only as "heartbreaking," sets the binder down, and then looks deeply troubled.
FILM ID 3253 -- Camera Roll #15A - 06:00:11 to 06:06:30
Lanzmann sits, listening quietly. Camera zooms in slowly on his face. He begins smoking a cigarette. He takes various poses for several minutes.

Rudolf Vrba was a Slovakian Jew who escaped from Auschwitz in April 1944 in hopes of warning the world about the imminent destruction of the Hungarian Jews and inciting the Jews to revolt. He describes working on the arrival ramp for ten months and witnessing as Jews from various countries went to the gas chambers. He and Lanzmann debate the culpability of the Jewish council members and other Jewish leaders, who Vrba describes as traitors who collaborated with the Nazis.
FILM ID 3226 -- Camera Rolls #98,99 -- 01:00:00 to 01:22:24
CR 98: Rudolf Vrba and Claude Lanzmann sit on a bench in Central Park. It is fall and they wear warm clothing. Initially both Lanzmann and Vrba appear in the frame but then the camera zooms in to focus on Vrba's face. He smiles as he tells parts of the story; it is slightly incongruous because of the nature of what he is discussing. Vrba says that he is not sure if the statistics about the number of escapes from Auschwitz are correct or not. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] He escaped in order to give warning about the impending deportation and destruction of the Hungarian Jews. He also wanted to survive. Vrba says that when he was first instructed by the Jewish community leaders in Slovakia to present himself for deportation it never occurred to him to actually follow such a "stupid" order. In his opinion many Jews were too accustomed to conformity and to following those who had a high social or religious status. He escaped from Auschwitz in April 1944 because he hoped that his information about the impending deportations would spread panic and slow down the killing process.
CR 99: 01:11:13 Vrba and Lanzmann discuss Vrba's use of the word "voluntary" to describe those Jews who arrived as instructed for deportation. Vrba says that at Auschwitz the Germans' method was to kill many prisoners in reprisal if anyone attempted to fight back. If he risked his life in order to bring the message of what was happening at Auschwitz, then his survival was justified. Vrba says that prisoners in the camp called those who were gassed upon arrival "civilians." Vrba worked at the arrival ramp for about nine months [CLIP 1 ENDS]. He begins to describe his work in the Canada Command (Kanada Kommando). Members of the Canada Command were responsible for sorting the clothes and possessions of new arrivals. The nickname "Canada" came from the food and medicines that the prisoners could steal while they sorted. The name came from the fact that the country Canada had a reputation as a land of plenty.
FILM ID 3227 -- Camera Roll #100 -- 02:00:00 to 02:09:23
CR 100: Vrba and Lanzmann now stand on a bridge in Central Park Lanzmann asks Vrba to describe his feelings as he waited on the arrival ramp, knowing that most of the Jews on the trains would be gassed immediately. Vrba says he did not feel particularly moved, it was not the time to feel emotion. Instead the thought occurred to him that these hundreds of thousands of people were disappearing from somewhere. 02:01:59 Cut -- see transcript, page 10. Vrba did not understand why people did not wonder about the fate of the people who disappeared before them. He says the key to survival was to accept the reality of the situation and he continues to describe the arrival process. 02:05:16 Cut -- see transcript, page 11-12. 02:05:53 Cut -- see transcript, page 12. The ramp was completely cleaned between each transport. If several transports were due to arrive on the same day then the Germans would use more brutal methods to drive the Jews out of the train cars. If they had time, however, the Germans would exhibit a "typical Prussian humor" and seemed to have a good time. In every transport there would be some people who were dead or dying. The audio continues past the video for a few seconds at the end of this tape.
FILM ID 3228 -- Camera Rolls #101-104 -- 03:00:00 to 03:33:54
CR 101: Vrba and Lanzmann are still on the bridge in Central Park. Vrba's first task once a transport arrived was to remove the corpses from the train. 03:01:28 Cut -- see transcript, page 14. Vrba loaded both the dead and the dying onto trucks. 03:02:59 Cut -- see transcript, page 15. He next removed the luggage from the train cars. Transports arrived at all times of the night and day. Lanzmann asks how people could still have hope when they arrived in trains carrying people who had already died. Vrba says that people coming from the west were more likely to think that it had all been a mistake and that things would get better, and the Germans sometimes played into this by pretending to be shocked at the treatment the people had received. Vrba sometimes attempted to talk to the new arrivals, even though punishment for doing so was death. Sound cuts out at 03:09:41
CR 102: 03:10:24 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Vrba tells the story of a member of the Canada Command who attempted to warn a woman from Theresienstadt that she was going to die. She complained to an SS officer and the man was killed, as were the woman and her children. Vrba says that the point of warning the woman was perhaps to create panic on the ramp, some kind of "hitch in the machinery." Vrba describes two times when unrest occurred or almost occurred: once when a truck overloaded with bodies got stuck on the railroad tracks within sight of a transport of French Jews, and once with the arrival of a transport of Dutch Jews from a mental institution. The handicapped Jews would not follow orders until the SS started being nice to the nurses in order to get them to help with the management of the prisoners. In the end they were all gassed, including the nurses. Lanzmann and Vrba discuss the arrival of the Greek Jews, and how different they looked and spoke (most spoke Ladino) [CLIP 2 ENDS].
CR 103: 03:21:36 Shots of Vrba and Lanzmann on the bridge. No audio. Panning shots from the bridge over Central Park.
CR 104: 03:22:43 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] The location of the interview has moved inside an apartment. Vrba stands by the window and the evening skyline is visible. Vrba explains the meaning of the term "Canada Command" and describes how the possessions from the luggage were sorted and graded. He describes the valuables that the luggage yielded to the SS. Vrba would take money that he found and throw it in the lavatory to keep it out of the hands of the SS. He elaborates on the functioning of the command: they worked in rotation at the trains and sorting luggage. There was a group of perhaps 20 women whose sole job it was to press out toothpaste from tubes that arrived with the prisoners, in search of valuables that might be hidden there [CLIP 3 ENDS].
FILM ID 3229 -- Camera Rolls #105-107 -- 04:00:00 to 04:29:25
CR 105 : Vrba is now seated at a table in front of the window. Lanzmann asks Vrba about the transport of Jews from Theresienstadt who were kept alive for six months in Auschwitz and then gassed. Before he tells the story, Vrba explains something of the system by which prisoners were accounted for. He was doing tasks for the resistance at this point. Vrba was a registrar, recording the numbers of prisoners in a particular block. He was living near the Czech family camp when this particular transport arrived. He noticed that the families were kept together, they brought their luggage into the camp, and their hair was not shorn. It became known that these Czech Jews held cards which indicated that they would be gassed after six months, but this reprieve of six months did not make sense.
CR 106: 04:11:14 Cut -- see transcript, pages 33-34. The rest of the story of the family camp is missing. Vrba talks about what resistance means in the context of what he calls an execution camp. 04:12:22 Cut -- see transcript, page 35. Vrba explains the difference between an extermination camp and an execution camp (he prefers the latter term). He says that Ausrottung, or extermination, is a term that originated with the extermination of insects and he therefore finds it unsuitable to describe the destruction of the Jews. He returns to the story of the family camp, saying that another transport arrived on December 20th and received the same treatment as the earlier one. Vrba's job was to find people in this special group who would be willing to join the resistance. He met Fredy Hirsch, a German Jew who had emigrated to Prague. Lanzmann points out that Hirsch was a Zionist.
CR 107: 04:18:07 Lanzmann asks Vrba how resistance in Auschwitz was different from resistance in other concentration camps. Vrba says that Auschwitz contained many people who had already previously resisted the Nazis. Vrba was "picked up" by the resistance about five months after he arrived in Auschwitz. A member of the resistance named Farber (or Ferber?) approached him when he was extremely ill and arranged for medical care and extra food. Vrba stole medicines from luggage on the ramp and passed messages from one person to another. He says the resistance sometimes blackmailed the Germans and used rivalries among the SS to their advantage. He says that the treatment of prisoners in Auschwitz got better in 1943, partly due to the resistance's successful efforts to replace the criminals who held certain positions (kapos and others) with political prisoners. Lanzmann asks Vrba to return to Fredy Hirsch. Vrba describes him as a spiritual leader of the Czech family camp, especially interested in the welfare of the children.
FILM ID 3230 -- Camera Rolls # 108,109 -- 05:00:00 to 05:12:30
CR 108: Vrba and Lanzmann are still in the apartment with a view of the Manhattan skyline. Vrba says that he began to realize, through his observations on the ramp, that the improvement of the conditions in the concentration camp actually contributed to the orderliness with which the Germans were able to carry out the killing process, and he realized that the Germans were probably in favor of the improvements in the concentration camp. 05:03:02 Cut -- see transcript, pages 41-43. As the 7th of March approached, there was a rumor that members of the first Czech transport would be moved to a place called Heidebeck, but the resistance was suspicious, especially when they realized that there was no transport scheduled.
CR 109: 05:07:12 Vrba informed Fredy Hirsch that the resistance had learned that no transport was scheduled and so it was quite likely that the first transport would be gassed. 05:07:29 Cut -- see transcript, page 44-45. The people of the Sonderkommando were ready to join the Czechs in an attack and this was the first time that an uprising was seriously considered. Fredy Hirsch objected, saying that he did not believe the Germans would gas them after the good treatment they had received. Vrba was instructed by the resistance to tell Hirsch that they were certain to be gassed, that the Sonderkommando had already received the allotment of coal to burn the bodies. 05:12:06 Cut -- see transcript, pages 47-49. Vrba tells the very end of the story of Fredy Hirsch, who killed himself when asked to help fight the Germans (the story of the suicide itself does not appear in the outtakes). Fredy knew that in any case the children would die - either in the fighting or in the gas chamber, and this was too much for him to bear.
FILM ID 3231 -- Camera Rolls #110,111 -- 06:00:00 to 06:08:00
CR 110: 06:00:36 Cut -- see transcript, pages 49-50. Audio but no video for the first few seconds after the cut. Vrba explains that the Jews from the Czech family camp were loaded onto the trucks and the members of the Sonderkommando knew that if the truck turned left the only place they could be going was to the gas chamber. Some of the doomed prisoners sang the Czech national anthem and some the Hatikvah. They were gassed that night and Vrba realized that the resistance was not prepared for an uprising but only for the survival of the members of the resistance. At that point Vrba decided to escape, which he did exactly one month later [on April 7, 1944] 06:02:19 Cut -- see transcript, pages 50-51.
CR 111: 06:02:20 Lanzmann asks Vrba who he met after his escape, how he conveyed the information that he had to give, and whether they believed him about what was happening in Auschwitz. Vrba says that first of all it was not hard to memorize all of the statistics about Auschwitz, because for him there was a picture behind every transport that he saw arrive at the camp. He was also aware that a million Hungarian Jews were to be murdered in the next few weeks at the camp. He and his "co-escapee" Fred Wetzler reached Slovakia on April 21st. In the town of Tczaza he found a doctor friend of his and told him about Auschwitz. He told his friend that of the 60,000 Jews who were deported about 67 men and 400 women remained alive.
FILM ID 3232 -- Camera Rolls #112-116 -- 07:00:00 to 07:33:46
CR 112: [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Vrba repeats what he told Dr. Pollack, that of the 60,000 Slovakian Jews sent to Auschwitz only 67 men and 400 women remained alive. Dr. Pollack arranges for Vrba and Wetzler to travel to Zilina and meet with Andre Steiner and other members of the Jewish Council. Vrba discovered that the Jewish Council had records of all the Jews who had been deported in 1942, because, "they have organized those deportations." Lanzmann asks whether they knew about the gas chambers, to which Vrba replies that people don't know what they don't want to know, despite the fact that 60,000 of the 90,000 Slovakian Jews had been deported and Auschwitz was only 70 km away. Vrba says that if he could make the trip from Auschwitz to Zilina, then anyone could have made the trip from Zilina to Auschwitz in order to look. He and Wetzler were separated in order to have their information transcribed. The resulting report was 30 pages long.
CR 113: 07:11:33 Vrba begins to answer Lanzmann's question about how Vrba and Wetzler were treated by the Jewish leaders but the phone rings.
CR 114: 07:12:14 Vrba says that the Jewish leaders were somewhat patronizing, which rubbed Wetzler the wrong way, but Vrba tried to maintain a "friendly atmosphere" because he knew that they must work with these people. He says that the leaders were controlled and matter-of fact, not emotional, about the details that the two men provided. He says that he and Wetzler were given assurances that their information would be passed on, because the deportation of the Hungarian Jews would be starting any day [CLIP 4 ENDS].
CR 115: 07:17:17 During this period was the first time Vrba ever heard Rudolf Kasztner's name. Vrba and Wetzler were told not to include the information about the deportations of the Hungarian Jews because they should not "prophesize the future" but report only what they had seen first-hand. The Jewish leaders told Vrba that it was not necessary to meet Kasztner, that they should simply enjoy themselves after what they had been through. The last few seconds of this roll have audio but no video.
CR 116: 07:22:41 Wetzler and Vrba remained in Zilina, while the Jewish leaders assured them that they would inform Kasztner about the position of the Hungarian Jews. A Jewish maid informed them that two transports carrying Hungarian Jews had passed through Zilina, and that the Jewish Council knew about it. Lanzmann questions this because the transports did not start until May, but Vrba says that according to a book by a colleague of Kasztner (Biss), two small transports carrying Jews who had been convicted of crimes went to Auschwitz in April, before the rest of the Hungarian deportations. Lanzmann points out that the Jewish leaders did indeed deliver the Vrba report abroad. Vrba's answer to this is: who was deported from abroad? He also disputes that the report was ever delivered abroad. Lanzmann asks again how Vrba explains the actions of the Jewish Council and Vrba begins a long explanation involving the fact that the members of the Council were Zionists, and that they were the ones who chose which 60,000 Jews were deported in 1942 and which 30,000 were able to stay in Slovakia. The transcript notes that this is the end of the first day of filming.
FILM ID 3233 -- Camera Rolls #132-134 -- 08:00:00 to 08:33:56
CR 132: Vrba's hair is somewhat disheveled. The interview is still taking place in the apartment with the big windows and the night sky behind him. Vrba says that the Hungarian deportations in May were so successful that the Nazis could not keep up with the killing and disposal of the bodies. Vrba says he did not mention the idea to bomb the crematoria and rail lines in Auschwitz to the members of the Jewish Council since he knew that they had no bomb-making capability. What he wanted them to do was to warn the Jews of Hungary what was coming, as well as make them aware that they (the remaining 30,000 Jews of Slovakia) were not safe. He says the Jews of Slovakia were more relaxed in 1944 than in 1942, because there was a strong anti-Nazi movement in the country and the collaborationist elements were less sure of themselves. Vrba says that he and Wetzler were isolated and therefore did not know for six weeks that the deportations from Hungary were going forward. They only found out when they came into contact with two other Auschwitz escapees, Ernst Rozin and Zeslov Morgowich. Rabbi Michael Weissmandel requested a meeting with Vrba. Vrba knew of Weissmandel from his childhood, because he was from Nitra, as was Weissmandel. Weissmandel led the Nitra Yeshiva and was active in rescue efforts during the war. He survived and re-founded the yeshiva in the United States.
CR 133: 08:11:33 Vrba and Morgowich, who had escaped Auschwitz in June, went to meet with Weissmandel in Bratislava, in the old Jewish quarter, where the rabbi had moved with his yeshiva. Vrba found the sight of orthodox Jews, dressed in their traditional garb at the yeshiva an incongruous and even comical sight after what he had seen at Auschwitz. Lanzmann comments on Vrba's animosity toward Weissmandel, but Vrba denies that he is judging Weissmandel.
CR 134: 08:22:42 Vrba says that Weissmandel showed an enormous amount of compassion when told about Auschwitz. Vrba was not interested in compassion, because he had learned in Auschwitz that compassion is dangerous, and it is a human characteristic for that which is dangerous to eventually become repugnant. Vrba wondered where Weissmandel was while the orthodox Jewish community was being slaughtered and why the Germans installed in Bratislava this rabbi who fit all their antisemitic stereotypes. However, Weissmandel was "tolerant" of Vrba and Morgowich, told them that he considered them ambassadors of all the dead Jews of Auschwitz, and asked what he could do for them. Vrba explained that people must be informed about what deportation means and encouraged not to get on the trains, and Weissmandel agreed. Vrba also suggested the bombing of the rail lines into Auschwitz, and secondarily the crematoria, and dropping weapons and parachutists into the camp. At this point in the discussion Vrba had very "warm feelings" for Weissmandel because he was the first person to talk concretely about what could actually be done.
FILM ID 3234 -- Camera Rolls #135-137 -- 09:00:00 to 09:34:48
CR 135: Vrba was certain after his meeting with Weissmandel that his warnings would be passed on to the Hungarian Jews. He also had a meeting with the representative of the papal nuncio in a monastery near Bratislava. The representative was quite familiar with the details of the report and cried over it then and there. He said he would take it to Switzerland with him. He asked after the fate of priests in Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks if Vrba is aware that his report was disseminated abroad and that it "made a lot of noise." Vrba says he was not made aware of this until about ten years after the war. Lanzmann asks Vrba's opinion about why his report caused a sensation, because the basic facts of it were already known by 1942.
CR 136: 09:11:33 [CLIP 5 BEGINS] Vrba says that he was not aware of what was known and what was not known in the West, so he thought that what was in the report was new. Also, the report described statistics and mass murder happening on an industrial scale. Lanzmann asks Vrba why he thinks the Jewish leaders of Hungary did not warn their people that deportation meant death. Vrba says that the Jews were tricked into going on the trains. The Jewish Council members were useful to the Germans only if they could draw up deportation lists and ensure orderly deportations. So the Jewish Councils collaborated (committed treason) with the Germans. Vrba says that most of them were Zionists and had gained the trust of the people. Lanzmann disagrees, saying that many Jewish Council members were not Zionists. He says in the case of Kasztner the situation was complicated, because Kasztner was negotiating with the Nazis in order to save Jews and therefore had to remain silent.
CR 137: 09:22:44 Lanzmann repeats that in his opinion, Kasztner did not warn the Jewish population about Auschwitz because he was negotiating with the Nazis to save them. Thus by trying to save at least some of the Jews he doomed them. Vrba takes strong exception to this, calling it a whitewash. He says that Adolf Eichmann agreed to save those one or two thousand Jews in order to keep the machinery flowing smoothly, and that those Jews who were saved were all of Kasztner's choosing. He says Kasztner was a traitor. Lanzmann asks him what he thinks of the general idea of the Jews negotiating with the Germans. Vrba says it was ridiculous, that resistance was the only way [CLIP 5 ENDS]. He says that the orthodox Jews would not listen to the Zionist members of the Jewish Council, they would only listen to their rabbis, such as Weissmandel. An orthodox rabbi could have told his people, no, do not get on the trains, fight to the death here. In order to keep the deportations moving, then, the Jewish Council had to extend their protection to the orthodox community, such as having a yeshiva in Bratislava, 120 miles from Auschwitz. Vrba says that Weissmandel's negotiations with Wisliceny were also ridiculous. Lanzmann says that some people say that Weissmandel's negotiations with Wisliceny resulted in the deportations from Slovakia stopping in 1942. Vrba says this is utterly ridiculous, that the pattern of the Nazis was never to deport entire populations at once.
FILM ID 3235 -- Camera Rolls #138,138A,139 -- 10:00:00 to 10:14:02
CR 138: Vrba says that Weissmandel was a puppet in the hands of the Zionists and that he was allowed to remain in Bratislava with his family and students as long as he did not tell the truth to the rest of the orthodox Jews who were deported to Auschwitz. Lanzmann interrupts him to say he thinks that Vrba is being too severe and that Vrba seems to exonerate the Nazis. Vrba says that of course the Nazis were the murderers, but that they were only able to commit murder on such a monumental scale with the help of traitors. Lanzmann says that Vrba has no nuance in his opinion, and asks Vrba why he smiles when he talks about these matters. Vrba says he was not aware that he smiles so much, but he can only smile when Lanzmann tells him that there are people who credit Weissmandel with saving their lives during the war.
CR 138A: 10:10:17 Extreme close-ups on Vrba's face. Mute.
CR 139: 10:11:05 Mute shots of Vrba.

Abba Kovner lived in disguise in a convent at the beginning of the German occupation in 1941. He was a central figure in the Zionist youth resistance movement in Vilna. He commanded an underground partisan resistance group throughout the war. He describes the way the Germans avoided panic among the Jews. Kovner maintains a poetic approach to Lanzmann's questions throughout the interview. This interview took place over two days in Kovner's Kibbutz Eyn Ha'horesh (between Nethania and Hadera).
FILM ID 3236 -- Camera Rolls #2,3 -- 01:00:12 to 01:24:55
CR 2
01:00:12 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. Lanzmann sits off camera as they speak in Hebrew and French. Lanzmann wants to discuss the proclamations of January 1942 by the Jewish Pioneers and the rapidity with which Vilna experienced invasion and extermination. Kovner worries that there are too many details to be able to tell them all. The Jews of Vilna were of the lower middle and poor class and accepted Russian rule philosophically. 01:11:40
CR 3
01:11:42 Kovner remarks on Vilna's unique status as a "political oasis" The Jews were caught between several governments and did not know where to look to for help. Everyone assumed that before the Germans came to Vilna they would have a few weeks to pack up and escape, but they were shocked when the Germans arrived and how quickly the Russians fled. Kovner advised other young Zionist youth (Pioneers) that they should flee to the Soviet Union. 01:24:55
FILM ID 3237 -- Camera Rolls #4,5,6 -- 02:00:13 to 02:33:20
CR 4
02:00:13 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. Once the Germans arrived Kovner warned people to escape towards Leningrad. He says that people have asked him why Jews did not try to escape the Germans but in fact they did so. Many young people fled immediately, but it was harder for families. Kovner decided to stay because he was a resistance leader and the majority of Jews were still in Vilna and he wanted to stay with them. Some Jews were forced to return because German parachustists had already reached Minsk. 02:11:24
CR 5
02:11:26 Once the Germans arrived the pogroms began. Men were taken for forced labor and many never returned. The people of Vilna would wake up every day not knowing what agony to expect. The Germans took their money, their apartments, and their men. Women began to hide their male relatives to save them from the roundups. When the ghetto in Vilna was formed there was less fear because it was more of a 'known' situation. Kovner begins to describe the events and atmosphere on the day the Jews began to be moved into the ghetto. He tells the story from the point of view of a particpant. 02:22:06
CR 6
02:22:07 Kovner goes through the thoughts that ran through the heads of Jews in the 30 minutes they had to gather their belongings right before they were forced into the ghetto. Their thoughts were not about how to escape, but about where their families were, what they were going to bring, how they were going to live. It was almost a relief to learn that the ghetto was in the middle of Vilna because it was a familiar place. During the formation of the ghetto Kovner was not present; he was already in hiding in the convent. When he went out into the streets he disguised himself as a nun. The night of the roundup is called the 'night of provocation' and the justification given by the Germans was the assassination of a German soldier. 02:33:20
FILM ID 3238 -- Camera Roll #7 -- 03:00:14 to 03:12:11
CR 7
03:00:14 Kovner sits on a park bench. He discusses how quickly everything changed for the Jews in Vilna. The German domination happened all of a sudden and it was terrifying. People were not talking of dates or facts, they were asking simple questions about survival. Kovner remembers visiting the ghetto and finding lines of people everywhere waiting for food or to use the bathroom. There were originally two ghettos right next to each other and people wondered at the logic of this, thinking that one must be a "good" place and one a "bad" place to be. Suddenly the smaller ghetto disappeared and they had their answer. People were not sure of where those people went but they knew it was a fate worse than their own. 03:12:11
FILM ID 3239 -- Camera Rolls #8,9,11 -- 04:00:14 to 04:33:20
CR 8
04:00:14 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. Lanzmann asks about panic in the ghetto. Kovner states that there must be a difference between fear, scare and panic. When one imagines panic they think of people running and howling in the streets, but this was impossible because the Germans were controlling everything. Kovner says that there was a lot of silence. The Germans created a psychological panic by differentiating people and making it clear that they did not all have the same destiny. They did this with the "Schein" or certificate that they issued to each person with certain colors and numbers. People tried to forge "good" certificates or trade with others. They spent their time trying to figure out what the Germans' intentions were. 04:11:25
CR 9
04:11:26 Kovner discusses further the system with the "Schein" that the Germans created. A yellow certificate meant you had a trade and could work in German industry. There were blue, pink and white certificates given to certain family members. The Germans succeeded in their psychological panic because the Jews battled each other for all these different certificates. Kovner remembers scenes of families being separated, husbands leaving the good line to be in the bad line with their wives; the smallest motion of a Gestapo soldier's finger was enough to separate these families. At one point people with pink certificates were safe while white certificates were not, but then it would switch causing great confusion about their fate. 04:22:36
CR 11
04:22:37 Kovner says that those who lived felt that was a signal that they were indispensable to the industry, but those people still felt great despair and sorrow for the great numbers of people who were gone. Kovner says that it was at this time that he realized that all roads led to death and this idea was the beginning of his idea to form a resistance movement. Lanzmann again asks Kovner about what they knew about the people who were gone, did they know those thousands were being taken to their deaths? Kovner replies with a story about the rumors that were spread. As an educator of the Zionist Socialist Youth, Kovner had been to the Ponary forest (near Vilna) for picnics before. There were rumors that shots were heard from Ponary which increased when the first ghetto disappeared. There was a rumor of a work camp built in Ponary where conditions were far worse than in Vilna. Kovner received proof of the truth about Ponary when one of his contacts at the ghetto hospital told him of a wounded 11 year-old girl who had arrived. She had just managed to survive a mass execution in Ponari and return to Vilna. 04:33:20
FILM ID 3240 -- Camera Rolls #12,13,14 -- 05:00:12 to 05:34:18
CR 12
05:00:12 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. He talks about another survivor of Ponary, an older woman who had been part of a roundup of women. At Ponary she saw one of Kovner's students murdered along with over 100 other women. Kovner begins to discuss the last time he had a meeting at the convent in December of 1941. Lanzmann wonders how he was able to go between the convent and the ghetto and Kovner explains it was because he was dressed as a nun and accompanied by a blonde woman 05:11:22
CR 13
05:11:22 Lanzmann sits outside on a park bench across from Kovner who is now off camera. Lanzmann asks Kovner to explain how he went between the convent and the ghetto, and who was with him in the convent. Kovner explains that he was hidden by a Catholic woman named Irena who had been a member of the Polish Scouts. From the very beginning of the German occupation she had hidden Jewish men, especially leaders of the Zionist Socialist Youth, because they were in the most danger. Eventually it became difficult because in the small convent the Jewish men greatly outnumbered the nine nuns. Kovner remembers requesting information from a priest about the situation of the Jews in Ponary Once he had the information he requested he decided to write his famous appeal. 05:22:37
CR 14
05:22:39 It is night and Kovner sits outside in a lawn chair. Lanzmann sits off camera and asks Kovner if he thinks he would have written the appeal if he had actually been living in the ghetto. Kovner commends Lanzmann for his intelligent question but says he will leave it aside for the moment. Kovner wants to discuss the appeal itself first so he begins to bring up the key points. Lanzmann wishes to read the whole thing in French before Kovner discusses it. Lanzmann expresses shock over how violent and condemning of Jews the appeal is at which point Kovner asks him to bring up a specific part. Lanzmann reads a harsh letter to the Jewish youth, condemning them for not acting. Kovner insists that this is not the appeal he wrote and that Lanzmann has an incorrect translation of it. 05:34:18
FILM ID 3241 -- Camera Rolls #15,16,17 -- 06:00:15 to 06:34:24
CR15
06:00:15 Kovner is sitting in a lawn chair outside at night. He is holding a copy of the appeal he wrote in December 1941. He does not wish to read it, but to bring up the three main points he wanted the Jews and especially Jewish youth to pay attention to. First they needed to denounce the enemy of the illusion that was holding them from the truth. They all had friends and relatives who had died at Ponari and it was important to realize that this was not just happening to the ghettos in Vilna, but to Jews all over Europe. Kovner's second point was the call for the Jews to defend themselves. 06:11:27
CR 16
06:11:28 Kovner says the sentence from his appeal that generated the most discussion was one that states that Hitler had the intent to destroy all European Judaism. Many in the Zionist Socialist Youth believed the mass exterminations to be a sort of revenge for prior Soviet activity or a show of German sadism. This did not make sense to Kovner, he remembered reading "Mein Kampf" and understanding that this was Hitler's plan unfolding in front of their eyes. In the first time in Jewish history there was no place to escape, geographically or spiritually. 06:22:49
CR 17
06:22:50 The last line of Kovner's appeal states that "it is better to fall as fighters." They were at a point like no other in Jewish history for there was no place to escape, not even by denouncing Judaism and converting to Christianity. Hitler planned to exterminate European Jewry and Kovner was convinced there had to be a solution. Lanzmann wonders if the Zionist Socialists felt elitist over the Jewish masses. Kovner does not like his use of the word elite and goes on to say that they just assumed that the whole of the Jewish population would agree with their solution of Israel, they were the pioneers. 06:34:24
FILM ID 3242 -- Camera Rolls #18,19,22 -- 07:00:13 to 07:29:50
CR 18
07:00:13 Kovner is sitting in a lawn chair outside at night. Kovner addresses Lanzmann's question about whether or not he would have written the appeal had he actually been in the ghetto and not in hiding in the convent. He is not sure how to answer the question. Though he was not in the ghetto and unable to have the perspective of someone who was forced to live there, he does have a special perspective as someone on the outside still greatly affected because of the loss of his family and friends. Kovner believes the appeal was born of two major proponents of human culture: guilt and the violent will to never give up. 07:11:56
CR 19
07:11:58 Lanzmann asks Kovner what purpose he thought his appeal would have when it was written in 1942 at a point where the Germans were already victorious all over Europe, especially when they had no arms to resist with. Kovner states that he knew there were thousands of Jewish youth with the will and the loyalty to be part of a rebellion. Lanzmann wonders what they expected to achieve. 07:17:54
CR 22
07:17:55 Kovner states they had minimal illusion about what they could accomplish, but it was important to them to have the power to choose their own death. Their resistance was out of desperation, they knew there was no escape but they hoped they would be able to save thousands. Lanzmann asks why he entered the ghetto in 1942 and if he stayed there for good. Kovner corrects him because the events they are discussing are not in chronological order. Kovner talks about 1942 as a period of stabilization because for a while the Aktions stopped and there was a new trust that the Germans were telling the truth when they promised they were done. 07:29:50
FILM ID 3243 -- Camera Rolls #23,26,27 -- 08:00:13 to 08:32:16
CR 23
08:00:13 Kovner sits on a bench outside during the day. The translator's arm and leg can also be seen on camera. Lanzmann remains off camera as he interviews Kovner. Lanzmann wants Kovner to describe what the conditions were like when he went back into the ghetto to organize resistance. Kovner discusses how important it was to be unified and put all differences aside. The group he started, the Zionist Socialist Youth, was one of the many groups that came together little by little. All members were asked to leave their families to make their own community in order to eliminate any dependence. There were sixteen living in a room with no food in the middle of winter. They formed a sort of commune where they held meetings, distributed labor and shared food. Kovner believes the rebellion started when they first divided a small piece of bread to share with all the members. At that moment they reversed the Germans' attempt to make them into wild animals and they were able to care for other people. 08:11:27
CR 26
08:11:34 Kovner says that while they were seeking external help they found support among a small group of Lithuanians, which was surprising and courageous because the majority of Lithuania collaborated with the Germans. The group in Lithuania asked Kovner to put together a list of 25-30 people that should be saved and they offered to hide these people outside of Vilna. Kovner and his group refused because they felt the Lithuanians were asking them to do what the Germans were doing, to make a selection of people that deserved to live. Some people in the group wanted to keep the option available in case they needed it later on, but they still refused because Kovner saw it as an admission that the entire ghetto population was condemned to death. 08:21:05
CR 27
08:21:06 The question of whether or not to save a group of people came up often, but always with the same conclusion. They felt the despair that comes with knowing that only death was in front of them, but Kovner also thinks they were the only ones in the ghetto who felt free because they knew they were choosing to die fighting. Lanzmann asks if by not choosing a group to save they thought it was better if all perish. He also touches upon Judenrat policies. Kovner wishes to speak about the Judenrat but decides to wait on that. He says the only reason they were able to call what they were doing in the ghetto resistance is because they did not seek to fight to save their own lives, but so that their behavior remained as a testament in Jewish history. 08:32:16
FILM ID 3244 -- Camera Rolls #30,31 -- 10:00:14 to 10:20:12
CR 30
10:00:14 Kovner sits on a bench outside during the day. Lanzmann remains off camera. Kovner discusses the long history of Jewish non-violent resistance as well as they many other practices that occurred prior to the war. Kovner thinks that violence is a fairly modern term and the term they used was "force." They would use force to protect the sanctity of all Jewish lives. 10:09:06
CR 31
10:09:08 When Kovner looks back at Jewish resistance over the course of history it is often called passive; but he views acts such as refusing to renounce your Jewish faith at the cost of burning at the stake as an active reaction. They fought to preserve a supreme value called the sanctity of life. Murder is not the opposite of sanctity of life, but the desecration and elimination of the human value of life. The Germans forced humiliation upon the Jews in the ghetto and this was the opposite of sanctity of life. Kovner expresses his unwillingness to be the prophet after the event, he cannot judge what is good or what is bad. 10:20:12
FILM ID 3245 -- Camera Rolls #19A,B,C ; 30A,B ; 28; 29 -- 09:00:09 to 09:29:12
CR 19A,B,C
09:00:09 Lanzmann sits in a lawn chair outside. It is night. He is smoking a cigarette and listening and nodding to Kovner who is off camera. He occasionally speaks to someone off camera, but there is no sound. CU of his face. 09:05:17
CR 30A,B
09:05:17 Lanzmann sits on park bench during the day. Trees wave in the wind as he listens to Kovner who is off camera. Lanzmann hunches and leans forward. 09:07:26
CR 28
09:07:42 No picture, just audio. Kovner believes that had the Jews unified earlier on in the war they could have resisted the Germans. Lanzmann misinterprets the answer and thinks Kovner is talking about the beginning of the occupation of Vilna when the German attack was sudden. Kovner corrects him and goes on to say that it should not have been just the Jews resisting the Germans, but had the whole world reacted then it could have been prevented. Kovner goes back to a previous question that asked him to reflect on his actions from thirty years ago. Kovner states that he is unable to look back and judge his actions because at the time he acted in the way he saw fit. There were signs that their resistance was not in vain. Kovner tells a story of women who were returning from work and stopped by Germans who told them to turn around, but they sat down on the road and refused. There was something significant about this occurrence to Kovner. There was something more the Germans wanted because if they were content with the extermination of the Jews they would have just opened fire on the street and there would have been no reason for a ghetto or for Ponari. 09:21:43
CR 29
09:21:50 No picture, just audio. Many people questioned Kovner about the purpose of his resistance. To this doubt he responded that the Germans must be afraid of something or else they would have killed them all already. Most importantly Kovner felt it was important that they not die as passive victims; that they were activist victims able to "shed this feeling of shame that had been imposed upon us." By being active they were able to recover their feelings of dignity and individual value. 09:29:12

Gertrude Schneider was a Viennese Jew deported with her family to the Riga ghetto. The interview, which also includes Schneider's mother and sister, covers topics such as the perception of Viennese Jews by Latvian Jews, sex and pregnancy in the ghetto, and the March 26, 1942 deportation Aktion. At Lanzmann's urging, the women sing several Yiddish songs they learned in the ghetto.
FILM ID 3221 -- Camera Rolls #3,4,5 -- 01:01:00 to 01:26:41
CR 3: A few seconds of a street scene in New York, then Dr. Gertrude Schneider is shown sitting on her couch. Lanzmann asks her why she wrote her book about the Riga ghetto. She says that in the course of research for her book she discovered that the widely held notion that the Latvian Jews had been killed [in November/December 1941] to make room for the German [and Austrian] Jews was incorrect, although this impression was fostered by the SS personnel in the ghetto. Sound drops out from 01:03:28 to 01:03:36. Video drops out.
CR 4: 01:04:19 Lanzmann asks Schneider to return to the subject of whether Latvian Jews had actually been killed to make room for the German Jews. She explains that [Rudolf] Lange carried out the killings in a very haphazard fashion, that in fact it did not make sense to kill skilled workers to replace them with the predominantly middle-class German Jews. She says that there are still Latvian Jews who blame the German Jews for the deaths of their families, but that nonetheless the remaining Latvian Jews behaved wonderfully to the Germans. She describes the separation of the two parts of the ghetto. She begins to describe her family's deportation from Vienna on February 1, 1942.
CR 5: 01:15:37 Schneider describes being taken with her family and all the Jews in her street to a school, where they encountered Anton Brunner. Brunner tore up her father's identification card, which indicated that he was a "Wirtschafts-Wichtiger Jude"[economically valuable Jew]. They were told that they were being sent east but they did not know more than that, until someone mentioned Riga. She describes the four day train journey to Riga. The car was so warm that she washed her hair using warm water from the radiator. She says that Alois Brunner traveled with their transport and shot Sigmund Bosel on the steps of their train car. She talks about passing through Krakow and seeing Jews working on the railroad. She says that her mother brought along marzipan in her suitcase that she intended to save until they got to the ghetto. Schneider waited until everyone fell asleep and then ate half the marzipan.
FILM ID 3222 -- Camera Rolls #6,7,8,9 -- 02:00:00 to 02:33:47
CR 6: [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Schneider finishes the story about the marzipan, then describes their arrival in Riga. She says that Lange was one of the two German SS men who greeted the transport and offered them the option of walking the 8 km to Riga or taking a bus. Approximately 700 people chose the buses and 300 chose to walk. Schneider and her immediate family chose to walk and she found out much later that the buses were gas vans. She describes their arrival in the ghetto and says it was extremely cold.
CR 7: 02:11:26 Schneider talks further about her impression of Lange and [Gerhard] Maywald, whom she describes as Lange's sidekick. She says the SS men seemed like gods to her. She says that she remembers when the German army came into Vienna. Lanzmann asks her whether her family was self-consciously Jewish. She describes the horrible conditions that awaited them when they reached Riga and the house where they all spent the night. There was evidence of the previous Latvian inhabitants, although the Austrian Jews were not aware of the Latvians' fate. She says they found false teeth frozen into a glass beside one of beds and a dead baby in the toilet. Despite the evidence they still did not imagine that the previous occupants of the house had been killed [CLIP 1 ENDS].
CR 8: 2:22:38 Schneider describes how two of the people from her transport killed themselves the night they arrived in the ghetto. The next day Schneider and her family moved into an apartment at Berlinerstrasse 13, which was already inhabited by Jews from a previous transport.
CR 9: 02:28:51 Schneider says there were not many suicides at the beginning but she believes that those who did kill themselves realized the seriousness of the situation. She talks about the numbers of people in the German ghetto in Riga and describes the March 1942 Aktion. The pretext for the Aktion was that the people were to be sent to a factory where fish was canned [in Duenamuende]
FILM ID 3223 -- Camera Rolls #92,93 -- 03:00:00 to 03:23:05
CR 92: Schneider now sits on the couch with her mother and sister (who is out of the frame at first). Schneider crochets and speaks softly in German with the other women. She picks up with the story of the Jews who were told they were being sent to a cannery to work. She says they were happy to go, some even requested that they be sent, because they were told they would be working inside and have enough food to eat. Gerhard Maywald (Lange's deputy) claimed at his trial that this lie about the cannery was an act of kindness. Schneider details the day of the Aktion [March 26, 1942] and the camera pans over to show her sister and then her mother. Schneider tells the story of a Viennese woman who decided at the last minute not to report for "work." The Germans brought the clothes of the dead Jews back to the ghetto a few days later, at which point they realized what had happened. Schneider's sister interjects that the German Jews, unlike the Austrian Jews, thought that they would somehow be protected by virtue of being German. Schneider mentions the killing sites of the Rumbula and the Bikernieki forests. Schneider and Lanzmann try to include Schneider's mother in the conversation but she is confused about locations and time frames.
CR 93: 03:11:19 Lanzmann talks to Schneider's sister while the camera pulls in close on the mother, who appears upset. Lanzmann asks about abortion and sex in the ghetto. Schneider asks her mother some questions in German about whether people continued to have sex in the ghetto. Schneider's mother talks briefly about her husband, who died in Buchenwald near the end of the war. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Schneider's sister talks about her experiences with pregnant women at the hospital in the ghetto: women were forced to have an abortion, no matter how late in pregnancy. They talk about the prohibition against sex in the ghetto which was impossible for the Germans to enforce. They tell the story of a woman who had a child born in the ghetto. They called the child Moses Ben Ghetto and he was eventually found and killed. They talk further about abortion [CLIP 2 ENDS] and about venereal disease. The last minute or so contains audio but no video.
FILM ID 3224 -- Camera Rolls #94,94A,95,95A -- 04:00:00 to 04:29:00
CR 94: Lanzmann asks Schneider to sing a song that they used to sing in the ghetto. The song was written by a ghetto inmate and was based on the communist song "Die Moorsoldaten." The transcript indicates that they sing "Asoi muss sein," taught to them by the Latvian Jews, but the audio drops out from 04:05:54 to 04:06:18. Schneider sings another song about a Jewish woman who had an affair with a Latvian man and ended up in hospital for an abortion. The women start talking about one German who was not so bad but Lanzmann asks them about more ghetto songs. They sing several songs, including at least one brought to Kaiserwald by the Vilna Jews when they arrived in September 1943.
CR 94A: 04:10:35 is repeated (from another camera); this time there is audio for the song "Asoi muss sein." Schneider sings the song to her mother, which makes her mother cry. Video is missing from 04:18:30 to 04:21:44.
CR 95: 04:21:45 Schneider sings the song about Schirotowa (the train station in Riga? Probably misspelled) again, then another song from the Vilna Jews.
CR 95A: 04:25:22 repeats CR 95.
FILM ID 3225 -- Camera Rolls #96,96B,97 -- 05:00:00 to 05:26:45
CR 96: [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Schneider talks about the Jews of the Vilna transport and the conditions at Kaiserwald. The women sing a Russian song, then part of a Polish song [CLIP 3 ENDS].
CR 96B: 05:07:54 repeats from a different camera.
CR 97: 05:15:37 Schneider continues talking about a song the Polish girls sang at Stutthof, "Male Biale Dome." She talks about the Partisanenlied (partisan songs) brought to Kaiserwald by the Vilna Jews. She sings a song that the family all sang when they were together for the last time, on her father's birthday in July 1944. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Schneider talks about how it felt to see her parents made powerless by the Germans. She tells a story about seeing her father after he received a beating. Lanzmann asks whether children ever despised their parents for their powerlessness, to which Schneider answers emphatically that the opposite was the case, they loved their parents even more. Schneider's sister says that she hated the Germans who hurt her father more than she hated the Germans who hit her. The transcript says that there are photos of the Riga ghetto but there are none on the tape.

Lanzmann used the false name Dr. Sorel and filmed this interview clandestinely. Heinz Schubert was Otto Ohlendorf's adjutant in Einsatzgruppe D. He was sentenced to death in the Einsatzgruppen trial at Nuremberg for his role in the massacre of Jews in the Crimean town of Simferopol. His sentence was commuted to ten years in prison. Schubert never admits to much criminal or moral guilt. The interview ends when Schubert discovers that Lanzmann has been filming it. Several men, among them Schubert's son, attack Lanzmann and his interpreter, Corinna Coulmas. The Schuberts pressed charges against Lanzmann and he was forced to give up filming clandestinely. Lanzmann is eventually cleared after writing an impassioned letter to the prosecutor and his camera (called a Paluche) is returned to him. The filming and the discovery is recounted in Lanzmann's memoir The Patagonian Hare (see pgs. 458 - 465 in the English translation that appeared in March 2012).
FILM ID 3216 -- Camera Rolls #1A,1B,1C,1D -- 01:00:00 to 01:30:05 (audio ends a few seconds before video)
Audio only until 01:00:16. The image of Lanzmann approaching Schubert's house appears on the screen in the van that received the video feed. Once inside the house, Lanzmann makes small talk with Schubert's wife about Germany and Paris. The video is interrupted periodically. Audio only from 01:08:32 to 01:11:05. Mrs. Schubert thinks that she knows Lanzmann's female interpreter, Corinna Coulmas. Schubert enters at 01:11:11. He and Lanzmann (Dr. Sorel) discuss the fact that Schubert did not answer Lanzmann's letter. Lanzmann tells Schubert that his institute, in collaboration with "Paris University" is collecting oral histories and Lanzmann has been assigned to collect oral histories about World War II, and specifically about the Einsatzgruppen. Audio only from 01:13:15 to 01:14:52. The picture becomes clearer around 01:18:04 but is still sometimes fuzzy. Lanzmann continues to try and persuade a reluctant Schubert to talk to him. Schubert refuses to have the interview tape recorded. He talks about the trouble it could cause him with the German government and he says that he does not know what will happen to such tapes in thirty years. He says that the records of the [Einsatzgruppen] trial are there to read in black and white and he cannot say more than what appears in the records. Lanzmann tells Schubert that he has questions to ask that were not asked at Schubert's trial, for example about why it was so easy to take the Jews, and about the role of the Wehrmacht in the fight against the partisans. Audio only from 01:25:45 to 01:27:34. Video comes back on identifying slate which reads "34A Video." Schubert says that if he tells the truth about the Wehrmacht it will cause him trouble. He says that documents that could have helped him and the other defendants in the Einsatzgruppen trial were suppressed in order to shield the Wehrmacht. The documents suddenly appeared in the trial against the German generals and the generals' defense attorney, Laternser, told Ohlendorf that this deception was necessary to keep the reputation of the Wehrmacht clean.
FILM ID 3217 -- Camera Rolls #2B,3,4 -- 02:00:00 to 02:24:36
Schubert now appears full-screen; the quality of the image varies. Schubert continues to waver on whether he should grant an interview to "Dr. Sorel." He says that he has helped several of his comrades from that time by testifying for them. He says he refused to testify against Field Marshall von Manstein in his trial in Hamburg because he knew it would be seen as an attempt to save his own life (he was imprisoned in Landsberg and sentenced to death at the time). Video but no audio from 02:06:50 to 02:07:17. The transcript indicates that he is still talking about von Manstein, the fact that he was freed by the Americans, and that he later wrote a book which in Schubert's opinion is worthless. He says that von Manstein's words were vetted and approved by the Americans. He says that his position as Ohlendorf's adjutant was an important one that meant he saw quite a bit of what was going on. He says that he traveled to Yalta with Ohlendorf as he was on his way to meet von Manstein at the castle where the victory celebration after the battle for Sebastopol was taking place. Von Manstein also gave the order that Simferopol (in the Crimea) should be "cleaned up" [Jews, Roma, and others executed] before Christmas. The video breaks up at 02:11:51 to 02:14:45. They discuss further the December 1941 execution in Simferopol in which some 14,000 Jews and Roma were killed with equipment provided by the Wehrmacht. 02:16:25 Good close-up of Schubert's face. Video only from 02:19:28 to 02:20:08. Schubert reads a passage from the book Lanzmann has brought with him and complains that at his trial the defendants were not allowed access to the documents that would have proved they were telling the truth: that their orders were given by the army. No video from 02:22:28 to end of tape. Lanzmann names the different units that comprised Einsatzgruppe D. Schubert gets a telephone call and Lanzmann and his translator speak softly in French.
FILM ID 3218 -- Camera Rolls #5,6 -- 03:00:00 to 03:23:06
No video until 03:03:16. Schubert affirms that he was [Ohlendorf's adjutant? Part of Einsatzgruppe D in the Crimea?] from October 1941 until July 1942. 03:01:50 Schubert tentatively asks Lanzmann about the title of the book they have been reading from, which is Raul Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews. Schubert says that he would not generally read such a thing because it churns everything up for him. He then begins to speak haltingly and vaguely about what he knew and did not know, saying that of course he saw some of what was happening but he often didn't know about certain events until after they happened, etc. Lanzmann asks him whether he was in Pretsch [where the Einsatzgruppen were first formed in May, 1941]. Schubert says he was not and then says that he does not want to say anything bad about anyone, that he could still be called to give evidence at proceedings in Ludwigsburg. Good shots of Schubert. He wonders why a certain person who knows much more than he does, who he refuses to name, has not been questioned by the court in Ludwigsburg. This person was at Pretsch and knew about Hitler's wish to destroy the Jews (he does not use this word), which was the reason Himmler formed the Einsatzgruppen. Lanzmann guesses correctly that Schubert is talking about Bruno Streckenbach, who had died recently. Schubert was unaware of this.
Lanzmann says that the "Fuehrerbefehl" is mysterious - there was no written order; the order for the extermination of the Jews was given orally. Lanzmann asks whether Schubert spoke to Ohlendorf or Seibert about Pretsch. Schubert says he did so only once: in Simferopol Ohlendorf told him he should be happy he was just an adjutant and had nothing to do with such things. But he did become involved, when he observed the Jews and Roma at the collection point before their execution in Simferopol, in order to report to Ohlendorf whether the operation was carried out according to his orders. Audio only from 03:11:33 to 03:12:03. Schubert is not quite clear in his wording and Frau Schubert interrupts to make clear that he is speaking about an order given by Ohlendorf, not an order given by Schubert himself. Schubert apologizes for his wife, who has suffered more than he has since 1945. They talk about Schubert's position in the SD. He describes Ohlendorf as the most hated man in the upper party leadership because he reported things as they were, even when Hitler no longer wanted to hear it. Schubert mentions Streckenbach again.
03:16:58 Lanzmann says that Ohlendorf claimed that he did not know definitively in Pretsch that the Einsatzgruppen were meant to kill the Jews, only that there was an ideological battle [between Bolshevism and Fascism.] Schubert says that it was not explicitly laid out in any case, they knew only that the Einsatzgruppen were to secure the area behind the army. He says the conditions on the ground determined the way each operation was carried out and the outcome was also determined by the lower-level officers, who were commanded simply to ensure that the Fueherbefehl was carried out. He says that men like Streckenbach could have helped him and his fellow defendants quite a bit by testifying on their behalf at Nuremberg, by saying in front of the whole world that those who bore the real responsibility were not those sitting in the prisoners' dock. 03:21:18 Lanzmann quotes both Ohlendorf and Schubert as saying that the killings burdened their souls and he asks Schubert what he meant by that. Schubert says that it was difficult to suddenly be confronted by a large group of people who should be executed and there is no reason why, at the individual level. The larger reason is of course the Fuehrerbefehl. Frau Schubert interrupts to point out that her husband did not [directly] take part in executions.
FILM ID 3219 -- Camera Rolls #7,8 -- 04:00:00 to 04:21:07
Continuing from the previous tape, Schubert agrees that he became involved in one single execution Aktion [Simferopol]. Frau Schubert says that her husband was sentenced to death for a crime that he did not commit and then pardoned because it was acknowledged that he did not commit it. Lanzmann says that many Einsatzgruppen members report suffering from this burden on their souls. Frau Schubert points out that her husband feels his soul to be burdened because he knew, because he had something to do with it while sitting at his desk, not because he physically participated in the shooting. Schubert continues to try and explain what he meant by saying that his soul is burdened, while Lanzmann says that they should not worry, he has nothing to do with the courts.
Schubert says that a great number of the men [presumably Einsatzkommando members] suffered and that they asked Ohlendorf to be released from duty because they had children at home or other reasons. Lanzmann quotes Schubert as saying that he [Schubert? Lanzmann's sentence is not complete] had to ensure that the executions were carried out as Ohlendorf wanted them to be carried out. The interpreter (?) points out the difference in the two words meaning "to supervise" and "to observe," and Frau Schubert says that in one case he is responsible and in the other case he is not responsible. Schubert reads from a piece of paper with pen in hand. He gets up to show Lanzmann the paper and moves out of camera view. He says that he signed the document (with the word "beaufsichtigen," supervise) under pressure at Nuremberg and that the interrogator used this word. Video goes out from 04:04:49 to 04:05:22. Schubert speaks at some length of how he was kept in his cell and refused food until he finally signed the document in question. He says that this incorrect word was why he was sentenced to death. He says that despite the entreaties of the British and American prosecutors he refused to testify against von Manstein while he was sentenced to death. A governmental commission from the US came to Germany to review the last 29 death sentence cases in Landsberg. Picture goes out at 04:09:35. The members of the commission had heard the audio tape in which Schubert argued with the prosecutor about the wording ("observe" vs. "supervise") and recommended that he be granted clemency. McCloy reduced his sentence to ten years. 04:15:40 Lanzmann brings the conversation back to the question of Schubert's "burdened soul." He asks if it was difficult to watch executions. Schubert answers that it was difficult, but they nonetheless had to carry out orders, they were at the front. He knew that if he were to speak out against the executions he would probably be executed himself by a military court. He speaks of the brutalities suffered by his comrades at the hands of the Russians. Lanzmann asks what Ohlendorf meant when he specified that the executions must be carried out in a military and humane fashion. Schubert answers, with suggestion from Lanzmann, that it meant that the executions should be carried out quickly, for example with pistols or automatic weapons. He begins to talk about the specific situation at Simferopol, but the tape breaks off. 04:19:04 Frau Schubert says that she saw and heard the tape recorder. They have figured out that there is a vehicle outside where the whole conversation is being recorded. Lanzmann denies this but Schubert keeps insisting that he see the contents of Lanzmann's bag. Frau Schubert says they should call the police. Voices are raised and the tape breaks off.

Hanna Marton is from Cluj (now Romania), formerly the capital of Transylvania. Both Hanna Marton and her husband were lawyers and Zionists. Marton was aboard the train organized by Rudolf (Rezso) Kasztner, carrying 1684 'privileged' Jews that left Hungary for Germany, eventually bringing them to Bergen-Belsen on 9 July 1944. Claude Lanzmann asks questions in French, which Hanna Marton understands, although she replies in Hebrew. Her answers are translated to French by Lanzmann's female translator, Francine Kaufmann. The transcript is in French only. Cluj was also known as Kolozsvar and Klausenburg. Both Lanzmann and Marton use the names Cluj and Kolozsvar interchangebly in the interview. The interview took place over two days in Mrs. Marton's apartment in Jerusalem.
FILM ID 3148 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:00 to 01:29:53
Hanna Marton sits in a chair in front of some bookcases in her home. She holds her husband's diary, a small brown book with the date 1944 embossed on the front, in her lap. Lanzmann clarifies the three names for Cluj: Cluj, Kolozsvar, and Klausenburg. Marton says there were 15,000 Jews in Cluj during the war. She gives some history of the Jewish presence in Cluj, but says that her husband, who died a year and a half ago, knew much more than she does. Both Marton and her husband were Zionists, and she had no contact with the orthodox community. Marton's husband managed to remain working at a high school until June, 1942, when he was sent to the Russian front, returning towards the end of 1943. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Marton's husband told her that the conditions were terrible, especially during the winter. Lanzmann points out that the Jews were fighting in the Hungarian army, which was in turn fighting with the German army. Marton gives more details about how the Jews were treated by the Hungarians.
FILM ID 3149 -- Camera Rolls #6-8 -- 02:00:00 to 02:32:45
Marton received letters from her husband at first but then none came for eight months. The retreat of the Hungarian army was chaotic and the Jews received good treatment from some Russian peasants. Marton says that her husband told her there was an instance where Jews and Wehrmacht soldiers slept together in the same bed in the home of some Russian peasants. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Of the 60,000 Jews who were sent to the Russian front only 5,000 returned. Marton says that as far as she recalls, in 1942 she did not know about the fate of the Polish Jews, but that she thinks she was aware by 1944, when the Germans took over Hungary. She thinks that most people knew but they didn't want to believe it, and that they followed the orders of the Germans because of a respect for the law. Marton describes how the Jews were ghettoized in Cluj, in May, 1944. They did not receive instructions from the Judenrat and the entire process was conducted by the Hungarians.
FILM ID 3150 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 03:00:00 to 03:33:30
The Jews of Cluj were concentrated in a brickyard and slept outside. The first transport left the brickyard within days, and many people volunteered to be on it. Marton had never heard the name Auschwitz at that point. Lanzmann asks Marton about her relationships with the Danzig and Fischer families. Dr. Fischer was Rudolf [Rezso] Kasztner's father-in-law. Marton did not see Kasztner in Cluj. The members of the Judenrat were the last to arrive in the ghetto; they arrived on May 15. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Marton describes how she first heard from her husband that there was a list of people who would be on a special transport, a transport that would not go to the same destination as the others (the so-called Kasztner Train). She says that she did not want to be part of this special group but her husband convinced her to go. They knew that their fates would be better than that of the Jews who were not on the list. Lanzmann asks Marton what she thought the selection criteria were and says she had no knowledge of a resuce committee in Budapest, that she thought that the list must have been compiled by "our people," the Zionists. Changes were made to the original list for various reasons. Transports were departing regularly and people had realized that the people on these transports would suffer a terrible fate. People made every effort to be a part of the special transport. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Lanzmann lays out the accusations that have been leveled against Kasztner since the end of the war: that Kasztner chose only his own family and other important people to go on the transport, and that he did not warn the people of Cluj and others that they were destined for extermination.
FILM ID 3151 -- Camera Rolls #12-14 -- 04:00:00 to 04:32:39
[CLIP 5 BEGINS] Marton says that perhaps if the people of Cluj had been warned that the deportations meant death then a minority of them would have tried to escape. She says that the Jews simply could not escape the ghetto and that these events were happening all across Europe, not just in Hungary. On June 7th the last transport left Cluj for Auschwitz, so that only the 388 people who were assigned to the special transport remained in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks Marton how they lived with that, how did they look each other in the eye? Marton says that they were in a state of shock, and further that they did not know at the time exactly what awaited them, where they would go, or that it was certain that they would live. Lanzmann and Marton consult Mr. Marton's diary, which provides some detail about who was on the list. Most of those on the list were Zionists. Marton insists that there were some poor people who were part of the group. Marton tells a story about two people from the train who ended up being imprisoned in the Nojverod (??) ghetto. They met Marton's father and were able to assure him that she was on her way to Palestine. Her father said that now he accepted his fate, knowing that she was safe. The transport reached Budapest and they stayed in the Columbus Kasse until June 30th. By the time they left Budapest the transport had swelled to 1684 people. Lanzmann quotes Kasztner about the makeup of the transport and asks Marton how those in the transport were selected, but Marton says she has no idea. She does know, however, that some people refused their places on the transport. One of these people was Jeno Heltai, a Hungarian writer and a couisn of Thedor Herzl. Lanzmann and Marton discuss the composition of the list.
FILM ID 3152 -- Camera Roll #15 -- 05:00:00 to 05:10:36
They continue to discuss the makeup of the list. Marton says that Kasztner's use of the the term "Noah's Ark" to describe the transport was correct, and that there were people from all classes on the list. She says that by the time they were travelling on the transport they knew the fate of the rest of the Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz. There was a rumor on the transport that their train was going to Auschwitz. Lanzmann points out that a panic broke out because the passengers confused Auschwitz with another town that they passed through (Auschbitz?). Marton quotes from her husband's diary about this panic.
FILM ID 3153 -- Camera Roll #16 -- 06:00:00 to 06:11:27:30
Lanzmann reviews what Marton has told him about two panics that occurred among the members of the Kasztner transport: one when the passengers confused the words Aushbitz (? a town in Czechoslovakia) with Auschwitz, and another panic that occurred in Linz: when the passengers were ordered into showers for disinfection the Polish Jews thought they would be gassed. Marton says that during the journey they did not know where they were being sent. They arrived eventually at Celle and walked to Bergen-Belsen. Marton checks her husband's diary and states the number of people of various age groups who were part of the transport.
FILM ID 3154 -- Camera Roll #17 -- 07:00:00 to 07:11:18
[CLIP 6 BEGINS] Marton describes the conditions at Bergen-Belsen. She says that the group was lead by Dr. Fischer and that the Jews participated in holiday observances, lectures, and other activities. She does not remember the Germans entering their barracks and thus they were free to pursue such activities. Dr. Fischer had the contacts with the Germans. The group stayed at Bergen-Belsen from July until December, 1944, although a group of about 300 left for Switzerland in August.
FILM ID 3155 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 08:00:00 to 08:21:40
[CLIP 7 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Marton how those Jews who were on the Kasztner transport could live with themselves, knowing that the other Jews of Cluj were killed, and Marton says that they asked themselves why they were chosen. She says further that one should blame the Nazis for instituting such a system, rather than those who were forced by the Nazis to make the decisions about who would live and who would die. Hermann Krumey, Eichmann's second in command, announced to them that those Jews of Hungarian citizenship would leave for Switzerland first. Marton describes crossing the border from Germany, which was dark and gloomy, into the well-lit territory of Switzerland. They spent their first night in St. Gallen. Marton did not return to Cluj until 1968, having made a vow never to go back there, and she regretted it when she did visit in 1968. Marton still keeps in touch with friends from Cluj. In response to a question from Lanzmann Marton says that she still lives with the guilt of being one of those who survived, although her husband, being a fatalist, did not feel guilty.
FILM ID 3156 -- Camera Rolls #20-21 -- 09:00:00 to 09:17:10
Marton knew Kazstner for many years before the Holocaust, and she thinks that the Kazstner trial was one of the most terrible things she has seen since coming to Israel. [CLIP 8 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks her whether she thinks that perhaps Kazstner went too far, and Marton says no. Marton says that in Israel she feels like she can never be hunted down again. Lanzmann asks her why she has had tears in eyes throughout the interview. Marton says it is a problem with her eyes but that sometimes she is crying real tears, especially since the death of her husband. The camera focuses on a portrait of Marton's husband.
FILM ID 3157 -- Camera Rolls #5A,1A-B,21A-C,19A,9A-B,13A-C,15A,18A-B -- 10:00:00 to 10:14:03
No audio. Panning shots around Marton's living room, including books and art. Marton looks through her husband's diary. Lanzmann sits across from her while she reads. Shots of Lanzmann as he listens to Marton speak (she is not in the frame). Close-ups of Marton and of the diary.

Benjamin Murmelstein, a rabbi and intellectual, worked closely with Adolf Eichmann in Vienna and became the last head of the Jewish Council in Theresienstadt. He defends his behavior against the many who have criticized him since the war and provides important details about the functioning of Eichmann's Central Office for Jewish Emigration. The sound on these tapes is problematic. Claude Lanzmann's questions are sometimes inaudible (they often do not appear in the transcripts). The audio sometimes outlasts the video image. The first few tapes show Murmelstein and Lanzmann outside on a balcony, then they move indoors. The sound levels are generally inconsistent. The interview takes place in Rome, where Murmelstein settled in 1947.
FILM ID 3158 -- Camera Rolls #22,23,24,26A -- 01:00:00 to 01:21:08
Murmelstein says that he is as happy in Rome as one who lives in exile can be. He talks about how hard it is to speak about the past and the Jews missing from Europe, Rome included. He says that Lanzmann has persuaded him of the importance of talking. Lanzmann says that Murmelstein has been silent for 30 years, which Murmelstein disputes, mentioning the book he wrote in 1961 called "Eichmann's Model Ghetto." He talks about the two films about Theresienstadt, one made in 1942 and one in 1944. He says that he was filmed for the second one but the scene was cut, which was a good thing. He says that he first saw the film on April 16, 1945 with Rudolf (Rezso) Kasztner. He states that the Nazis cut the scene in which he appeared because Eppstein also appeared in the scene and the Nazis had executed Eppstein. He says, "With a dead Jewish council chairman you can't make propaganda, can you?" He talks about Rumkowski (chairman of the Jewish council in the Lodz ghetto), who allowed himself to be called "King Chaim." He talks in mythical and religious terms, making reference to Roman myths, Christianity, Judaism, and fairy tales. At one point Lanzmann tells him that he himself is somewhat mythical because he was so hard to find, and people kept telling Lanzmann that Murmelstein was dead, or very old. Lanzmann tells Murmelstein that he is the last living Jewish council chairman. Murmelstein says he was not aware of this.
Murmelstein tells Lanzmann of his experiences immediately after the war. He says that he was supposed to survive so that he could tell fairy tales like the princess in 1001 Nights. The fairy tales he tells are about the Jewish paradise of Theresienstadt. He says that he told this tale until 5 April 1945 when the Red Cross came to Theresienstadt. On that day it was like the story of Little Red Riding Hood when the wolf dressed as the grandmother came out of the bed. Lanzmann tells Murmelstein that he is the last person who can talk about the Jewish council. Murmelstein says that being head of the Jewish council was like being between a hammer and an anvil, between the Germans and the Jews.
FILM ID 3159 -- Camera Rolls #27-29 -- 01:00:20 to 01:22:29
(The sound is flawed for the first 3 minutes or so. The audio is distorted and cuts out at one point. See 01:04:07 for restart with audio ok. Murmelstein's voice at the end of Roll 28 - 01:11:33 - does not correspond to the video.) Murmelstein became involved with the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde after the Anschluss in 1938 but he first came to political attention in about 1935 when he was a rabbi in the 20th district (which had the second largest Jewish population in Vienna) and gave a speech commemorating the 12,000 unknown Jewish soldiers who fought in World War I and who had been denigrated by Goebbels. His speech somehow got into the press. He was forced to organize and speak at a ceremony honoring the murdered Austrian chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss and his speech at the ceremony was fairly blatantly anti-Nazi. He tells of how he published a refutation of an antisemitic book written by a professor, and how another Nazi professor, at the request of Murmelstein, helped ensure that Jewish students were allowed to complete their final exams. He tells of how the Kultusgemeinde issued two appeals, one to the youth, and another stating that the Jewish community must protect their position and honor, but at the same time giving the message that the Jews must get out of Austria. ["Wir muessen weg."] He was given the task of writing both of these appeals which was difficult because of state censorship, but somehow he succeeded. 01:16:30 He tells of first meeting Eichmann in summer 1938. He says he was assigned to write reports about emigration for Eichmann, despite the fact that he knew little about the topic. He asserts that Eichmann was no expert (specialist) in the topic, despite what was said in Jerusalem (at Eichmann's trial). Murmelstein goes on to discount a book by Israel Harel, who arrested Eichmann, in which it was reported that he (Murmelstein) taught Eichmann Hebrew. Murmelstein says that Eichmann had no knowledge of Hebrew and only a superficial knowledge of emigration, all of which he learned from Murmelstein.
FILM ID 3160 -- Camera Roll #30 -- 01:00:02 to 01:11:31
Extreme close-ups of Murmelstein's face. Murmelstein continues to talk about his relationship with Eichmann and how he tried to maintain some distance from him. He tells of a meeting in Berlin and how Eichmann burst into Murmelstein's office on 10 November 1938 (Kristallnacht) carrying a revolver. He complains that the verdict against Eichmann in Jerusalem did not include a conviction for Eichmann's participation in Kristallnacht. He saw Eichmann personally commanding destruction on 9-10 November. He goes on to say that Kristallnacht had nothing to do with Herschel Grynszpan's assassination of Ernst vom Rath, but that 10 November was the anniversary of the founding of the Weimar Republic, the so-called Jewish republic, and was thus always an opportunity for anti-Jewish propaganda. Hitler himself had said that the Jews would pay for the Weimar Republic. The audio continues for several seconds after the video stops.
FILM ID 3161 -- Camera Rolls #31-32 -- 04:00:05 to 04:22:35
The discussion of the Eichmann trial continues. Lanzmann wonders why Murmelstein was not called to testify and Murmelstein says that for some reason they did not find him a credible witness. He says that he protested when he read in the paper that Eichmann had testified that the only Jewish representative who had not agreed with Nisko was Murmelstein. [Nisko was a plan, never realized, to solve the "Jewish problem" by settling Jews in an area around Lublin] Murmelstein felt compelled to protest on behalf of the dead Jewish representatives. He mentions Hannah Arendt and others who got a false impression of Eichmann from the trial. He says that the most important jurist in Rome, Carnelutti, wrote that Eichmann's trial was the second trial of Jerusalem, referring to the crucifixion of Christ. Murmelstein's reply, published in a Jewish newspaper, was that Jesus was crucified with two criminals and Carnelutti was crucifying him again with a criminal. He talks about Eichmann's involvement in schemes to steal money from the Jews in return for false promises of emigration. 04:11:27 CR 32 Murmelstein himself had opportunities to emigrate, as did other leaders of the Jewish community, but they did not leave. He traveled to London twice in 1939 but did not stay. In June 1939 he received certificates to travel to Palestine with his wife but he gave them to another family. Last few seconds of the audio drops out.
FILM ID 3162 -- Camera Rolls #33-34 -- 05:00:05 to 05:22:37
Lanzmann and Murmelstein continue to discuss the "spirit of adventure" [Abenteuerlust] that kept Murmelstein from emigrating. He felt like his work in getting Jews out of Vienna was going well. He mentions the success of the Jewish refugee camp in Kent Richborough in England. He took personal risks (once, for example, he issued visas that he knew were not valid) and he also felt a personal satisfaction at being able to help people get out of Austria. He addresses the fact that people have accused him of abusing his power and mentions that the Encyclopedia Judaica accuses him of this. He denies that he did so and says that he was just trying to help people, although he says that of course people are human and power has a certain feeling. He then discusses the escape of Jews to China via the trans-Siberian railroad in 1940. Chinese officials stole money from the Jews but somehow Murmelstein managed to prevent this from continuing. Audio cuts out from 05:11:29 to 05:11:50, when roll 34 starts. He states that once the war started they couldn't get money from the American JDC any more. He discovered that the Reichsvereinigung had a dollar account in Harbin, from which he took money to enable a train of Austrian Jews to leave China. When Eppstein, in Berlin, found out about this he was upset with Murmelstein. Murmelstein told him that if they both survived Murmelstein would convince the Joint to give Eppstein his dollars. Murmelstein tells of his first falling out with Loewenherz and with the Joint. He describes it as the first occasion where people abroad begin to speak about him.
Murmelstein explains something of the way in which the Kultusgemeinde dealt with money: they collected Reichsmarks and changed them to dollars, which was the currency used to buy passage on ships. Loewenherz was in charge of the budget and therefore had a lot of money concentrated in his hands. A doctor in the Jewish community had obtained passage for himself, his wife and his 90 year old mother-in-law on a ship. Murmelstein didn't think it was right to use a place on a ship for a 90 year old, but it wasn't his decision. On the day the ship was to sail the doctor came to him and said he was not sailing on the ship because he hadn't sold his house yet. Murmelstein was appalled: places on ships were very precious and he could not fill the three places on such short notice. The doctor demanded more money from the Kultusgemeinde The audio drops out from 05:22:12 to 05:22:37, which is the end of the tape.
FILM ID 3163 -- Camera Rolls #35-36 -- 06:00:05 to 06:20:31
Murmelstein continues with the story about the doctor. Murmelstein informed the doctor that he, the doctor, would be responsible should he not use the three spaces on the ship and since the ship was sailing under the auspices of the SS.... The doctor quickly decided to leave, but not without complaining about Murmelstein to Loewenherz and the Joint subsequently heard about the incident as well. Murmelstein tells Lanzmann that even in 1941 he sometimes managed to help people emigrate who had already been designated for deportation. He tells of a particular case in which he managed to save a man who had shown Alois Brunner, Eichmann's assistant, a letter of exemption [Empfehlung] from Goering, which was as good as a death sentence, given the relations between Himmler and Goering. Murmelstein managed to outsmart a junior SS officer and the man escaped deportation. He also talks of two other Empfehlungen, one from Goebbels for the brother-in-law of (the composer) Franz Lehar, and an oral Empfehlung from Hitler for Dr. Bloch, who had treated Hitler's father.
Murmelstein discusses the deportations from Germany, which began in October 1940, and states again that Eichmann was not banal and that he had the power to carry out his threats. Lanzmann asks about the founding of the Zentralstelle fuer Juedische Auswanderung. Murmelstein says that the Zentralstelle was an "Art Golem." It was created for a certain purpose but soon grew out of control and became an instrument of destruction. Murmelstein says that things were much worse for the Jews of Vienna than for German Jews, and that Goering had made statements that 300,000 Jews should be deported from Vienna within two years, despite the fact that there were never that many Jews in Vienna. Lanzmann asks him why Goering used this false number, and Murmelstein replies that it was propaganda, that the Nazis had talked so long of the "Verjudung" of Vienna that in the end they believed their own lies. Murmelstein details how hard it was for Jews to pay all the fees and taxes they needed to pay in order to emigrate and says that this lead to the founding of the Zentralstelle. Lanzmann asks whose idea was the Zentrallstelle and Murmelstein replies that the idea sprang from necessity ["Es hat sich von selbst ergeben"]. Murmelstein says something about how his department managed to lower the required taxes and fees, or obscure the fact that they had not been paid.
FILM ID 3164 -- Camera Roll #37 -- 07:00:03 to 07:11:12
Murmelstein says that employees of the Zentralstelle carefully watched and reported on the Germans. He says that Eichmann and the Gestapo competed for power and money and the Jews were in the middle. The Gestapo was not happy that Eichmann controlled the deportations of the Jews, because there was money to be made. He says that although he would be the last person to say a good word about Eichmann, working with him allowed Murmelstein to accomplish certain goals (saving people from deportation or getting them released from camps). He says that Loewenherz did not get things done in a timely manner and that Eichmann could not stand Engel. Murmelstein tells of how Eichmann continued to threaten and squeeze money out of the Jewish community. At one point, a law was passed dissolving the Kultusgemeinde in Innsbrueck and declaring it to be an enemy organization ("Reichfeindlich"). This disturbed Murmelstein greatly because he saw it as an escalation of persecution and he went to Loewenherz to see what could be done. He found Loewenherz unhelpful and decided to undertake measures on his own.
FILM ID 3165 -- Camera Rolls #38-39 -- 01:00:05 to 01:29:56
In hopes of finding some way to reverse the dissolution of the Innsbrueck Kultusgemeinde, Murmelstein studied Nazi law and filed a petition arguing that it was not possible under Nazi law for the Kultusgemeinde to be declared "Reichfeindlich." The petition reached Eichmann, and some time later the law was repealed. After much thought Murmelstein came to the conclusion that Eichmann helped him because if the Kultusgemeinde was declared illegal, it and the money it generated would be removed from his control. Lanzmann compliments Murmelstein on his memory and asks about the reason behind the creation of the Judenraete and the Judenaeltesten. Murmelstein explains that there were Judenaelteste in German Jewish history, but that the Nazis meant to degrade the Jews by giving them these titles, which sounded tribal and "third world." Lanzmann asks him about the Nazis' interest in "Judenwissenschaft" and Murmelstein says that they were ignorant of Hebrew and the meaning of ritual objects, even as they (Rosenberg, for example) confiscated them.
Murmelstein ended up giving Hebrew lessons to several Nazis and he is ambivalent about these men. One of them was his professor, Christian, who helped Jewish students at the University to get their degrees after the Nazis took power. Another was Dr. Jungreitmeier, whom Murmelstein rebuked strongly for the execution of a Jewish partisan. Jungreitmeier began to cry at Murmelstein's words and the two men became friends. His students even attempted to get him returned to Vienna once he was deported to Theresienstadt but they were not successful. However, word of his classes had spread and three or four trucks full of Jewish books arrived at Theresienstadt, in order for Murmelstein to create a bibliography. He turned this task over to a man named Dr. Munalis from Prague. Murmelstein was instructed by the Germans to remove the names of the people who owned the books, but he told Dr. Munalis not to do this. When Kellner, the Nazi who had given the order, showed up to see how the work was going, Murmelstein managed to distract him to the point that the man never actually opened a book to look at it. Murmelstein then turns to the question, which Lanzmann had asked him, of how he came to be hated in Theresienstadt. A man named Dr. Nuernberger happened to be visiting at the time Kellner came to view the bibliography's progress. He mistook Murmelstein's talkativeness with the Nazi and the looks between Dr. Munalis and Murmelstein after Kellner's departure, as sycophancy and arrogance. The audio continues for almost ten minutes after the video stops from 01:22:45 to 01:31:50.
FILM ID 3166 -- Camera Rolls #40-41-- 09:00:05 to 09:22:40
Lanzmann asks Murmelstein about a report he wrote in 1940 at Eichmann's behest. The report discussed the feasibility of a Jewish state as a solution to the "Jewish problem." Murmelstein asserts that he did indeed write this report, which was presented as the Loewenherz report at the Eichmann trial. At the time he did not know that Eichmann was working on the Madagascar plan. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein whether he was a Zionist, which Murmelstein does not answer directly at first. Murmelstein defends his report and himself against the charge that Gideon Hausner made in his book, "Justice in Jerusalem," that both Rumkowski and Murmelstein were tools or marionettes of the Nazis. Murmelstein takes exception to this, saying that at that time Hitler ruled from the Atlantic Ocean to the Caucasus yet Murmelstein still had the courage to suggest in this report that whatever power ended up controlling the Mediterranean had the duty to establish Palestine as the homeland of the Jews. Lanzmann corrects him, saying that in 1940 Hitler had not reached the Caucasus. Murmelstein agrees that this is true and continues trying to explain that he could not simply tell Eichmann, no, I want nothing to do with you. CR 41 09:11:29 Lanzmann returns to the report, asking how long it was and whether it relied on Herzl's ideas. Murmelstein derides Arendt's reading of the report and insists that his idea of a Jewish state was Palestine, although he could not state that plainly in the report. He says that had he known that Eichmann was thinking about Madagascar he wouldn't have written the report. Murmelstein and Lanzmann continue to discuss Madagascar for some time. Murmelstein says, and Lanzmann agrees, that Madagascar became code for the Final Solution. Theresienstadt, says Murmelstein, was also a code or method for hiding the true goal of the Germans.
FILM ID 3167 -- Camera Rolls #42-43 -- 01:00:23 to 01:22:53
Close-up on Murmelstein's notes. The sound is better on this tape than on previous tapes - you can hear Lanzmann's questions better, although the volume is still lower than on Murmelstein's answers. They continue to talk about Madagascar and Nisko. Murmelstein says that Bonnet told Ribbentrop that the French needed Madagascar for their own Jews. Then the English occupied Madagascar. Murmelstein says that they used Birobidjan as a model for Nisko. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein to explain about Nisko and Murmelstein says that he never thought of Nisko as a solution, that even Eichmann said that all the Jewish representatives were in favor of Nisko, except Murmelstein. Murmelstein traveled to Nisko at the behest of Eichmann's deputy, Guenther. Murmelstein told Guenther that further emigration should be attempted rather than concentration of the Jews in Nisko. Guenther told Murmelstein that he was turning down a chance to be the king of the Jews. 01:11:42 CR 43 Lanzmann asks Murmelstein why he was offered the position as king of the Jews and not Edelstein or the others. Murmelstein replies that it was quite simply because he had known Eichmann the longest and that Eichmann knew he worked in the emigration department and knew how to organize things. He says that nonetheless, after the research he did on Madascar, Eichmann wrote him off, and for this reason he arrived in Theresienstadt as just a normal Jew, "ohne Auftrag," and that it was only at the last moment that he was named (to the Council?). He explains that the leaders in Vienna worked well together and did not engage in power struggles like they did in Berlin and Prague. He says that he arranged, with Eichmann and Brunner, to allow 500 Jews [Glaubensjuden] to stay in Vienna, where they remained free until the end of the war. He says that Brunner attempted to play him and Loewenherz off against each other by offering him (Murmelstein) the power to make the deportation lists alone, but Murmelstein refused. The camera pulls back to reveal that Lanzmann is reading one of Murmelstein's documents, which Murmelstein describes as a petition written by Loewenherz, that shows how Loewenherz pleaded that another man (Prochnik) be sent to Nisko in Murmelstein's place. He means to show that Loewenherz supported him at the time. He says he never would have allowed Prochnik to go in his place. Lanzmann reads aloud from the document, in which Loewenherz describes how necessary Murmelstein is to the functioning of the Kultusgemeinde, including counting the Jews of Vienna, etc. Murmelstein explains that it was important to be necessary, because then nothing would happen to you. However at that moment he was not necessary to Eichmann. Eichmann had put together a transport to Poland without the help of Murmelstein, which convinced him that he did not need Murmelstein [Murmelstein fooled Eichmann in that instance?] Lanzmann continues to read from the document and the camera comes in close on Murmelstein's face. Murmelstein replies, speaking over Lanzmann, that Loewenherz wanted to rescue him at any price.
FILM ID 3168 -- Camera Rolls #44-45 -- 11:00:04 to 11:22:24
Murmelstein tells Lanzmann about when Loewenherz was sent to Theresienstadt as chairman of the Jewish Council. Murmelstein protested but to no avail, and he himself was sent to Nisko. He went in a "sondercoupe" with other Jewish representatives. They stopped in Krakow and he was appalled at the "dead eyes" of the religious Jews he saw there at forced labor. He says that the train stopped far from Nisko and they were forced to march for two days. The next day they arrived for roll call in the town of Sanjietce (Saniecze), where Eichmann spoke. He told them a camp would be built in that location. Eichmann said that the springs around the area were infested with typhus so they would have to get a new source of water because drinking the infected water could mean death. As he said it he smiled in a way that has always stuck with Murmelstein. 11:11:15 CR 45 Murmelstein tells Lanzmann that when Eichmann stated before the court in Jerusalem that he did not give such a speech to the Jews at Nisko he was quite correct, that he actually gave the speech in Sanjietce (Saniecze), which was 12 km from Nisko. Murmelstein was there and saw it for himself, and the speech was described in his book on Thersienstadt. The prosecutors at Eichmann's trial did not bother to read his book. He relates other instances of Eichmann's cruelty, including one which resulted in a family of three committing suicide, and he calls Eichmann a demon.
FILM ID 3169 -- Camera Rolls #46-47 -- 12:00:03 to 12:23:10
The first 4 or so minutes of this tape show extreme close-ups on Lanzmann as he smiles and laughs. He appears to be listening to Murmelstein speak but there is no audio until a few minutes in. When CR 46 starts at 12:04:30, Murmelstein returns to Eichmann's speech in Nisko, or "more accurately Saniecze," which he describes as a foreshadowing of the Final Solution. He says that for the Jews in Nisko the only door left open was escape to the USSR, and that the Soviet soldiers allowed this to happen. However, this was only a possibility for those who were young and fit. The oldest suffered the most during deportations, but it was nonetheless desired by the Jewish Council that the eldest should be deported in favor of the young. Lanzmann attempts to draw Murmelstein further on this, asking whether this was "Edelstein Politik." Murmelstein explains that Edelstein had a lot of guilt toward the Czech Jews, who had trusted him when they came to Theresienstadt. In some cases Mischlinge [people of mixed parentage] came to Theresienstadt when they would have been safe in Prague. Edelstein had been lied to by Guenther in Prague, but he felt guilty nonetheless. Video is missing from 12:11:12 to 12:11:59, when the next reel begins. During his stay in Nisko Murmelstein and a group of other Jews were sent to Lublin. They were given passports and letters of passage that did not identify them as Jews, which was good because a pogrom happened in Lublin while they were there. After 10 days they were sent back to Nisko, which Murmelstein realized later was because the planned settlement at Nisko was now obsolete. Nonetheless, it was a step down the path toward the final solution.
FILM ID 3170 -- Camera Rolls #48-49 -- 13:00:04 to 13:22:47
Although Goering and others feared America's reaction to Nisko, they found that the entire episode was ignored by the world. Thus the plans to dispose of the Jews progressed. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein what he personally thought of the Nazis' plans after the experience of Nisko, to which Murmelstein replies that he knew it would be certain death for old people to be deported to Nisko and he was determined to prevent that. Lanzmann tries to draw him more on the subject of what he thought the Nazis had planned for the Jews, but Murmelstein insists on telling his story and says that he had no time to think about such things, he had time only to act. The deportations from Vienna started again in October 1941. Murmelstein describes the Jewish council as marionettes but finally he refused to gather people for deportations and Brunner had the idea to make the selections himself. Lanzmann asks him about the Jewish police (Judenpolizei or Jupo) and Murmelstein said they had nothing to do with the Kultusgemeinde. Lanzmann asks if these police were really brutal and Murmelstein says that they were and that he once arranged for a group of them to be deported to the east. 13:11:17 CR 49 There is some static in the audio. Murmelstein returns to the subject of Brunner's selections. The Kultusgemeinde received lists containing names, addresses, and ages of those to be deported. Murmelstein cut from the lists those who were older than 55 or were ill, then called Brunner for more names to be added. Murmelstein explains that his thinking was that while it was bad to be deported, the deportations did not mean automatic death for those who were healthy. Brunner finally caught on and Murmelstein explained that if Brunner ordered work transports he could not send old or ill people. In answer to a question, Murmelstein states that he did not know that the transports were extermination transports. He thought the final destination would be something like Nisko. To further his point, he states that in Lodz, which he makes a point of calling Litzmannstadt, the chairman of the council was not aware for several months that a deportation of Jews from the ghetto went to Chelmno. The Jews were deported in spring 1942 and the chairman first became aware that the destination was Chelmno in October. Only Moses Maren, of Sosnowiece, had an idea of what was happening. Even if they had known, what could they have done? Lanzmann points out that this is a very important question, to which Murmelstein replies that there was nothing they could have done, except perhaps kill themselves, like Czerniakow (the head of the Jewish council in the Warsaw ghetto), but more importantly, Murmelstein says, Parnes in Lemberg [Lvov]. Lanzmann asks what Murmelstein thinks of this, and Murmelstein replies that it was not his way, that his way was to save as many Jews as he could (he again names specific occasions where he saved Jews).
FILM ID 3171 -- Camera Rolls #50-52 -- 14:00:04 to 14:22:44
Murmelstein says that although he was called a tool of the Nazis by Gideon Hausner, he was able to prevent a death march from Theresienstadt which Hitler ordered in 1944. At Lanzmann's prompting, Murmelstein tells a long story about a baker whom he supposedly mishandled. He says that the baker faked a nervous breakdown. He talks again about trying to save the old people in Vienna and in Theresienstadt, and Eichmann's treachery. CR 51 14:11:21 He describes the Judenaelteste as being like the ass in the story, which is constantly running to catch the hay that is always just out of his reach. Eichmann agreed that the elderly would not be deported to the East but would stay in an old age home in Theresienstadt. However, the Jupo went to the old people, who did not know about Eichmann's order, and demanded money or else they would be deported. Murmelstein reported this to Brunner. When he himself was deported, a Jupo man escorted him. He tells Lanzmann this in order to illustrate that the Kultusgemeinde and the Jupo did not get along. Audio and video do not match 14:15:46 to 14:16:23. CR 52 14:16:24 Murmelstein says that during the years 1941 and 1942 he protested strongly against the deportations and argued that the Jews should be housed and concentrated in Vienna. Edelstein in Prague, during the same period, argued for the establishment of a ghetto. He describes the ghetto Thersienstadt and the Small Fortress, which was overseen by the worst type of SS men. Edelstein had been promised and in turn promised his people that they would be allowed to make Hachshara (go to Palestine) from Theresienstadt, which was not true. However, Edelstein also saw that Theresienstadt was important for propaganda, in order for the Germans to save face.
FILM ID 3172 -- Camera Rolls #53-54 -- 15:00:04 to 15:22:55
Murmelstein talks about Theresienstadt as a cover for Auschwitz. He was deported to Theresienstadt in January 1943 as part of the final "Entjudung" (removal of Jews) of Vienna, which was accomplished on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the Nazi seizure of power and to deflect attention from other bad news for the Germans, such as Stalingrad and the landing of the Allies in North Africa. The deportation of the prominent Jews, such as himself, symbolized this Entjudung. He talks about the various categories used to designate the Jews; he was category A, as was Leo Baeck. He mentions a book by Friedlander which misrepresented Baeck's deportation number, because everything about Baeck's story should be tragic. Baeck had two rooms for himself and his housekeeper, and was never required to do forced labor. He says that even the Jews eventually believed the lies of the Nazis. He becomes quite exercised as he says that he read about a group of Jews who said, at a celebration of the 30th anniversary of liberation, that they were prepared to mount resistance but it was the Jewish Council who hindered their activities. The last bit of the reel has no image but the audio continues. CR 54 15:11:53 Murmelstein has read with astonishment since the war of all sorts of people who were actually resistance fighters. He says there were no weapons, no secret radio stations in Theresienstadt. He is not surprised by anything he reads. Lanzmann asks him what he thinks about Jews who wanted resistance, in principle, and he replies that the symbol of the resistance is Warsaw. Aryan Warsaw rose as one man in 1944 but when the ghetto rose in 1943 nobody in Aryan Warsaw paid any attention. One must be at the point of committing suicide to attempt an uprising, which is a point that Warsaw reached but Theresienstadt didn't. He says that he carried a vial of poison but could not use it, nor could Eppstein, even after he was arrested. Lanzmann asks at what point he would have killed himself and he says if they had built gas chambers in Theresienstadt, or Hitler's order of the death march had been carried out. Lanzmann asks him about the enterprise of cleaning up the city (Verschoenerung). He replies that it was a lie but one that could be used to advantage. Murmelstein explains the phases Theresienstadt went through: the Reichsaltersheim, which was liquidated, the childrens' home, when the children from Bialystok and Hong Kong arrived, then a center for foreign Jews, with the arrival of the Dutch, the Danish, and the expected eventual arrival of the English Jews. When the Danes tried to protect their Jews, the order was given for the Verschoenerung, so that a Danish contingent could visit the camp. Murmelstein explains his differences with the council "triumvirate." He disagreed with Edelstein regarding available spots on a transport to Palestine.
FILM ID 3173 -- Camera Rolls #55-56 -- 16:00:04 to 16:22:30
Murmelstein says that Eichmann told him quite a lot about Theresienstadt before he was sent there. At the last minute, he was appointed by Brunner to be Eppstein's deputy. He describes his arrival in Theresienstadt in some detail, and the awkwardness between him and Edelstein and Eppstein, with whom he had previous conflicts. Nobody was aware that he had been named deputy. The two other men assigned him to two departments, Health and Technical, where he could not be expected to accomplish very much. Nonetheless he was able to establish an acceptable method for delousing people. CR 56 16:11:20 He continues with the story of the delousing problem. In fixing the problem, he further alienated Eppstein and others, but he did manage to ensure that the older people were deloused and cared for. He tells of how the three of them, although at odds, managed to ensure that people were immunized against typhus by withholding rations unless they were immunized. He was blamed for this.
FILM ID 3174 -- Camera Rolls #57-58 -- 17:00:03 to 17:22:28
Lanzmann says that it is quite clear to him that Murmelstein loved power. Murmelstein replies that Lanzmann is just trying to make him angry. The one rule for the Judenaelteste was that you be necessary (to the Nazis). Once you became superfluous it was the end. Lanzmann says that people have written that he was ambitious, to which Murmelstein answers that he cannot rebut every stupid thing that people write about him. He lists several lies that he has read about himself. Lanzmann says that he was hated, and Murmelstein says that he refused special treatment to a Gettowachmann who came to him to try and get in touch with his wife who had been deported. This angered Eppstein. The camera pulls in very close on his face as he speaks. He tells another story about a transport of women who arrived at Theresienstadt to discover that their husbands were not with them, only to be harassed by drunk SS men. Murmelstein had to handle the problem on his own and ends the story by saying, "You ask why I was hated, what could a beloved Gettoaeltester have done?" CR 58 17:11:23 He says that Leo Baeck wanted to play a leading role in the ghetto but he was dangerous because he was senile. After a story about replacing the men of the Gettowache with women, he says that Eppstein attempted to help the man whom Murmelstein wouldn't help by arranging for all of those who wanted to be in touch by mail with their wives to sign up. Only those who followed Murmelstein's orders not to do so escaped deportation. He tells a long story about how he isolated a group of people who returned from Auschwitz after the war with barbed wire, because there was a typhus epidemic and there was no vaccine until the Russians arrived. A man called Neumann wrote a book in which he claimed that Murmelstein kept the people behind barbed wire because he was afraid of their anger at him.
FILM ID 3175 -- Camera Rolls #59-60 -- 18:00:02 to 18:22:32
18:00:03 No audio. Shots of Murmelstein speaking; shots of a photo of him and Eppstein in a book Lanzmann is holding. 18:03:07 Lanzmann asks about the liquidation of Eppstein. Eppstein came to Murmelstein in 1944, quite pleased, and said that the Nazis were sending him to Portugal. Murmelstein advised him to turn down the assignment. In the same week Hans Guenther told Murmelstein he could leave for Palestine. Murmelstein said no, because he did not trust Guenther and thought that his wife and child would not be allowed to go with him. He later found out that this was all happening during the time that Joel Brand was sent to Constantinople on Eichmann's orders. He talks of Eppstein's Rosh Hashanah speech and says that Hannah Szenes's mission was hopeless from the beginning. He says that Lodz was liquidated in August 1944 and the only thing that kept Thersienstadt from being liquidated at that point was that the Nazis wanted to finish the film. But Theresienstadt, like Lodz was due to be liquidated. Eppstein had more trust in the SS man Moess than in his own Jewish colleagues. CR 60 18:11:15 Eppstein was of no more use to the SS, so Moess set a trap for him. After his Rosh Hashanah speech, Eppstein was told he must admit that there were spies (who had parachuted in, like Hannah Szenes) hidden in the ghetto. Murmelstein is of the opinion that the text of the speech was agreed upon with Moess beforehand. Eichmann informed Murmelstein that he would change places with Eppstein, who was at another ghetto. Murmelstein knew what that meant because he knew that Eppstein was already dead. Guenther insisted on keeping him until after the Red Cross visit.
FILM ID 3176 -- Camera Rolls #61-62 -- 19:00:00 to 19:22:31
Transports from Theresienstadt had begun before Murmelstein took over from Eppstein. He criticizes Eppstein and Edelstein, who exempted certain people and replaced them with others, sometimes more people than were necessary. People in the ghetto did not want to believe what happened at Auschwitz. They knew only of the family camp there and that Auschwitz was worse than Theresienstadt. The people in the ghetto did not learn the truth about Auschwitz until they were told by Slovakians in the summer of 1944. Murmelstein again criticizes Leo Baeck. He says that when the Danish Jews arrived in 1943 they reacted strongly to the smell of gas in their newly disinfected barracks. This should have been a warning but the inhabitants of Theresienstadt did not take it seriously. Murmelstein insisted that there be no more exemptions and replacements on the transports, and for this reason Karl Rahm agreed to exempt some people without replacement, thus sending fewer people to Auschwitz. Lanzmann reads a quotation from Jacob Gens of Vilna. Murmelstein says that the two situations were completely different. He goes on to say that elsewhere Jewish organizations pulled a scam where they rented rooms in Theresienstadt, advertising them as having baths, or being on the sunny side of the building. The money ended up going to Eichmann. Murmelstein says that this did not happen in Vienna and nor did the Jewish leaders participate in organizing deportations from Vienna.
FILM ID 3177 -- Camera Rolls #63,65 -- 20:00:05 to 20:14:07
Murmelstein continues to defend the actions of the Kultusgemeinde in Vienna, saying that they did not help with the deportations nor did they lie to the Jews about conditions in Theresienstadt. Murmelstein says that he also refused to prepare deportation lists in Theresienstadt, despite threats from the SS. He points out that Theresienstadt was the only ghetto that was not liquidated and he deserves some credit for that. The filming moves outside in front of the Titus Arch, apparently at Murmelstein's request. Zdenek Lederer, another Theresienstadt survivor, compared Murmelstein to Flavius, who collaborated with the Romans, and to Herod. Murmelstein wrote a book about Flavius.
FILM ID 3178 -- Camera Rolls #63A,64,64A,65AM -- 21:00:03 to 21:11:20
Mute shots of Murmelstein outside near the Arch of Titus.
FILM ID 3179-- Camera Rolls #66-67 -- 22:00:00 to 22:22:24
[Sound is bad at the beginning of the tape but then improves] Filming outside in front of the Arch of Titus, Lanzmann reads a quote from Lederer about Murmelstein and Josefus Flavius. Murmelstein wants to move on from this topic and says he can't be responsible for everything that was ever written about him. Nonetheless, they continue to discuss Flavius. Murmelstein returns again to the class he taught in Vienna in 1942. His students were university faculty members who were also Nazis. He gave eight or ten of them weekly lessons in Judaism. He showed them a Tallith and explained the significance of it. He also showed them where it had been damaged during Kristallnacht.
He says that he can be condemned but not judged, that the Judenaelteste should not have survived the war, they are an uncomfortable remnant, like dinosaurs on the Autobahn. He compares himself to Scheherezade, saying that had the duty to report the tale of the "Judenparadies" (Theresienstadt]. He says that reports of his death were "wishful thinking" by those whom he witnessed in uncomfortable situations during the war. They wanted to believe that he, who had seen them at their worst, was dead. Lanzmann says that he read a quote from Murmelstein in a Swiss newspaper where he called himself "der letzte der Ungerechten." Murmelstein thinks that the Israelis still practice "Judenratpolitik." He mentions the Bermuda Conference (April 1943). Lanzmann asks him who has the right to judge him and he says the Czech court of Leitmeritz. Lanzmann asks why he was arrested and he says that being a Judenaelteste was reason enough. After eight months the prosecutor declared that he could find no evidence against him.
FILM ID 3180 -- Camera Rolls #68-69 -- 23:00:00 to 23:22:23
Filming outside in front of the Arch of Titus, Murmelstein describes Rahm's trial and makes the point that he was considered a reliable witness in the trial. He says that despite the fact that he testified against Rahm, Rahm told an interviewer that Murmelstein was not a traitor and did not denounce anyone. This exoneration was never published.
Lanzmann asks why Murmelstein came to Rome instead of to Israel, to which Murmelstein answers that he was afraid of being tried again. He says that he worked hard at lowly jobs, even though he didn't need to because people offered him money. He was accused of converting to Christianity, which was the only accusation that really hurt him.
Lanzmann says that (Gershon or Gerhard) Scholem wrote that Murmelstein should have been hanged. Murmelstein replies that Scholem is a great scholar but does not always do his research. He says there are many sources about Murmelstein: the Red Cross archive, the Rahm trial, the Murmelstein trial, the Eichmann trial. He points out that Scholem was one of those who protested against Eichmann's execution. He says that he does not believe that his portrayal in Lanzmann's film will change the minds of those who are already against him. Lanzmann asks him why he agreed to be interviewed, and after referring to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, he says that he has a spirit of adventure and is not fearful of talking about his public position.
FILM ID 3181 -- Camera Rolls #65A,62AM,69A -- 14:30:03 to 14:30:56 and 14:32:32 to 14:33:51
Mute reverse angle shots of Lanzmann. Mute shots of Murmelstein walking along the streets of Rome.
FILM ID 3182 -- Camera Rolls #71-72 -- 01:30:04 to 01:48:18
Murmelstein talks about his life in Rome, beginning in 1947. He was boycotted and otherwise persecuted, but he persevered. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein how he feels about threats to Israel or whether he is happy when Israel wins wars. Murmelstein says of course he is happy but he disputes the basis for asking such questions.
He refuses "with indignation" to answer whether he thought he would have made a good leader in Israel. Murmelstein says that the Judenaelteste were so hated because all of the Jews' dealings with the Nazis went through the Judenaelteste. He says he introduced the 70 hour work week because the ghetto was in ruins after the October deportations. The 70 hour work week was his idea and he did not blame it on Rahm. Murmelstein says his philosophy was to keep people working and keep the ghetto in order, which Lanzmann likens to the philosophy of Rumkowski and Gens of Vilna.
TAPE 3183 -- Camera Rolls #73-74 -- 02:30:02 to 02:52:30
Murmelstein talks about his policy of allowing births in the ghetto; he allowed them and Eppstein did not. Thirteen of the children who were born in Theresienstadt survived. Lanzmann says that when Murmelstein speaks of Theresienstadt he does not get a feeling of the misery and desperation of the place, only of the organizational details. Murmelstein says that his worst memory was of clearing the urns in the Columbarium, which contained the ashes of the dead. He knew this meant the Germans were planning to liquidate the ghetto.
He says that despite what people think now, there was a top secret plan to build gas chambers in Theresienstadt, and when he heard about the plan he went to Rahm to tell him that the Jews would revolt at the mention of gas chambers. Rahm called off the plan. Murmelstein lied to Rahm about who told him about the gas chambers -- he gave the name of Rahm's favorite instead of the person who actually told him, knowing that Rahm would not punish his favorite. He frames this as a typical dlilemma that faced a Judenaelteste. Murmelstein says that Rahm admitted at his sentencing that there had been a plan to install gas chambers at Theresienstadt, for the liquidation of the Small Fortress (kleine Festung).
FILM ID 3184 -- Camera Rolls #75-76 -- 03:30:05 to 03:52:24
Lanzmann asks Murmelstein whether he was anti-democratic and had a fascist temperament. Murmelstein answers that he disapproved of the first and the second Jewish councils, and that he closed the courts. He makes the argument that the Jewish council, whose members were named by the SS, was itself anti-democratic. These members and their friends and families were protected from deportation. He explains some of his disagreements with the members of the first council and describes some of the ridiculous policies and disagreements that occurred. He speaks disparagingly of Leo Baeck, who could never forgive Murmelstein for his obvious disdain for the council.
Undemocratic as the process was, it was more merciful for him to judge peoples' crimes than for the cases to go through the courts, because "behind the court stood the Kommandatur." He continues to explain his method of avoiding German involvement in the criminal justice system. Murmelstein was blamed for the confiscation of the Red Cross and other packages that were sent to the Jews in Theresienstadt. He says the first question that Red Cross officials asked him in April 1945 was about the packages.
TAPE 3185 -- Camera Rolls #77-79 -- 04:30:04 to 04:52:22
Lanzmann mentions the fact that the interview has now lasted four days and he finds himself wondering whether he is making a film about the Shoah or a film about Dr. Murmelstein. Murmelstein talks about his early life and his parents. He went to a rabbinical school and studied mathematics. He studied oriental languages at the University of Vienna. He says he is not sure why he became a rabbi.
Murmelstein says that he was only prominent because of his involvement with Eichmann. Otherwise he would not have been prominent then, just as he is not now. Lanzmann asks again whether he desired power, and then whether he was somehow impressed by the power wielded by the Nazis. Lanzmann asks about his relationship with Rahm, and Murmelstein says Rahm never forgot that in 1938 or 1939 Eichmann told him to bring a chair for Murmelstein to sit on. Their relationship in Theresienstadt worked fairly well, although there were bad times, such as the October transports. He says that for a woman to become pregnant was not forbidden as it was in other ghettos, and that 13 of the 213 children born in Theresienstadt survived.
FILM ID 3186 -- Camera Rolls #80-82 -- 05:30:05 to 05:52:28
Rahm instructed Murmelstein that he needed reports from Theresienstadt, complete with denunciations, and told him that he had received such reports from Murmelstein's predecessors. The reports that Murmelstein gave him contained denunciations only of Murmelstein himself. Rahm was imprisoned for the first time after the war in 1947. Murmelstein said he convinced Rahm not to execute the last Jews left in the ghetto. He urged Rahm to escape at the end in order to ease tension in the ghetto. Murmelstein tells of the final days before liberation. Rahm summoned him and turned over a bank account in Bauschowitz, which contained money for the ghetto.
Lanzmann asks Murmelstein how he decided to take on the responsibility for the beautification of the ghetto (before the Red Cross visit in 1944). He says that the beautification resulted in real improvements in the conditions of the ghetto, despite the fact that the project enabled Nazi propaganda. He says the other members of the Council considered him a Falstaff but he was more of a Sancho Panza. Once Theresienstadt was shown to someone (the Red Cross) then it could not disappear. He saw the "prostitution" of the ghetto as necessary. His workers wanted to sabotage their work but he forbade it. He says that Eppstein and not he was responsible for the cultural activities depicted in the film. He describes Epptein's role as that of a petty prince. He says that he is convinced that the city beautifcation led to the continued existence of the ghetto. He lists the raw materials received by the ghetto in preparation for the filming. He says that showing the ghetto in the film meant that "they were not hiding us. If they hid us, then they could kill us." He says that the Red Cross would not have come if the city beautification had not taken place, and that he raised an alarm with the Red Cross when they were leaving (?). He mistakenly refers to the 1942 Theresienstadt film as "Der Fuehrer schenkt den Juden eine Stadt" and says that he was not in Thereseinstadt when the 1942 film was made. Murmelstein says again that he appeared with Eppstein in one scene, but because Eppstein was murdered the scene was cut. Murmellstein got in an argument with Guenther when Guenther asked Murmelstein how he liked the film and Murmelstein said that he did not like it at all, because the people were not shown working.
FILM ID 3187 -- Camera Rolls #83-87 -- 06:30:03 to 06:52:35
The city beautification for the Theresienstadt film also included deporting the sick and the crippled. Lanzmann asks whether there was a resistance movement in Theresienstadt and Murmelstein says there was moral resistance but no armed resistance. Lanzmann asks if there was resistance against the Aeltestenrat. Murmelstein denies this was the case and talks instead about artists who painted true-to-life scenes of Theresienstadt and hid their paintings. He says in all of Bohemia their was no resistance and the Jews were certainly not in a position to resist.
Murmelstein and Lanzmann look at a book together. The book contains an illustration (drawn by Edelstein?) which depicts the ghetto as a sieve during the arrival of a transport of elderly Jews in 1942. The younger Jews fall through the sieve into Auschwitz. Murmelstein explains that Edelstein felt compelled to save the younger Czech Jews (to whom he had made a promise) by deporting the older ones. Edelstein's argument was the the younger Jews could work and make the ghetto function. Eichmann had intended to let the older Jews stay in Theresienstadt (and deport the younger Jews?). Lanzmann points out that by the time Murmelstein became head of the Council there were very few young people left, and Murmelstein says something further in defence of Edelstein.
FILM ID 3188 -- Camera Rolls #88-92 -- 07:30:02 to 07:52:35
Lanzmann shows Murmelstein the same illustration depicting a transport of elderly Jews arriving at the ghetto from Germany in 1942, while young Jews are transported to Auschwitz. The book in which the illustration appears is "Die Verheimlichte Wahrheit" [The Secret Truth] by H. G. Adler and contains a report from Edelstein about the ghetto. Edelstein wanted to deport the older people, in order to keep his promise to the younger Jews from Prague (this was in 1942, before Murmelstein arrived at Theresienstadt). Murmelstein says that the older people should not have been shipped all at once, but rather in several transports, so that individuals could have been removed from the transports. Murmelstein says that at the time they knew nothing of Sobibor and Chelmno, and they knew Birkenau only as a family camp. He tells the story of the children from Bialystok (he does not give the exact number but there were approximately 1200), who arrived in Theresienstadt in August 1943. These children were to be allowed to go to Palestine in exchange for Germans interned in Allied countries, but some of them got sick and they were deported to Auschwitz in October, along with the doctor and nurse who had cared for them. Lanzmann asks him to repeat the story and Murmelstein adds that the children cried "gas!" when they saw the showers in Theresienstadt. After the deportation of the sick children, Eppstein informed the ghetto residents that the remaining children would be shipped to the West and asked for volunteers to accompany them. One of the volunteers was Franz Kafka's sister, Ottla. The train went to Auschwitz instead of to Palestine. The Danish Jews who arrived shortly afterwards also knew about the gas chambers at Auschwitz but Murmelstein continues to insist that he didn't know anything. Lanzmann says that before he met Murmelstein he had a negative impression of him and asks whether Murmelstein thinks history can be written by relying soley on documents.
FILM ID 3189 -- Camera Rolls #93-96 -- 08:30:04 to 08:47:59
Still addressing the question of whether history can be written using only documents, Murmelstein criticizes Adler's manipulation of documents in his book on Theresienstadt. He also criticizes other books that contain falsehoods about him. He says that the use of Jews to make soap is as awful as using them for political purposes. He tells of a young man who asked him to help avoid deportation and then told him joyfully that it was his father who was to be deported, not him. Murmelstein reprimanded him and after the war the man wrote a book in which he denounced Murmelstein. Murmelstein says he tried to prevent people from volunteering to go with their family members because he thought it was senseless. Lanzmann suggests that the two of them make a trip to Israel together. Murmelstein tells Lanzmann to leave the subject alone. He says that he has made mistakes but has paid for them by living in the desert, but if Italy is his desert he doesn't have much to complain about.
FILM ID 3190, part 1 -- Camera Rolls #21B,21D,64B -- 09:30:00 to 09:42:11
Silent CUs of Lanzmann on the balcony listening to Murmelstein. He smokes and nods his head periodically. Murmelstein's gesturing hand appear in the frame. 09:35:00 silent interior shots of Lanzmann sitting on the couch. He looks at papers and listens to Murmelstein. Lanzmann pages through a book with several bookmarks.
FILM ID 3190, part 2 -- Camera Rolls #21,26A,69A,27 -- 10:30:00 to 10:37:25
Silent shots of the setting sun from the balcony. Shots of Murmelstein, includling the back of his head. Daylight again -- panning shots of Rome rooftops and pigeons.
FILM ID 3190, part 3 -- Camera Rolls #26A -- 11:30:00 to 11:30:27
Silent shot of Angelika Schrobsdorff, Lanzmann's interpreter (and wife) in profile, wearing sunglasses.
FILM ID 3190, part 4 -- Camera Rolls #34A -- 12:30:04 to 12:30:21
Silent CU of Murmelstein's hands holding several typed and handwritten pieces of paper.
FILM ID 3190, part 5 -- Camera Rolls #30A -- 13:30:03 to 13:31:28
Silent CU of Murmelstein on the balcony, listening to Lanzmann.

Andre Steiner, an architect, discusses the Judenrat and resistance activities in Slovakia with Lanzmann. He recounts relations with Rabbi Weissmandel and Gisi Fleischmann in their attempt to rescue Slovak Jews from deportation.
FILM ID 3414 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 00:00:22 to 00:33:51
CR1 Andre Steiner was born into an assimilated Czechoslovakian Jewish family. He was an architect in Brno and in 1939 he was imprisoned briefly because his father-in-law was a leader of the Jewish Agency in Czechoslovakia. He and his family left Brno for Bratislava as soon as he was released from prison. In Bratislava he eventually became a part of the Judenrat. He was sent out to determine what types of buildings would be needed at the sites where the Germans intended to build concentration camps for the Jews. Steiner, along with Gisi Fleischmann and Dr. Neumann, were convinced that it would be much better for the Jews if they were able to stay in Slovakia, even in camps, rather than be deported to Poland or anywhere else.
00:11:28 CR2 The Slovak government demanded that the work camps be self-supporting within three months. Because of his connections and his position as an architect, Steiner managed to get work with the Slovak government for himself and for other Jewish architects. Steiner says that a few members of the Judenrat, including himself, Gisi Fleischmann, and Dr. Neumann, met separately and made other plans. They did not like the "yes-man" attitude that prevailed among some of the Judenrat members, including the head, Schepersczy?, and Hochberg, who dealt with Dieter Wisliceny, Eichmann's deputy. Lanzmann asks Steiner to elaborate on this "shadow government" formed by the dissident members of the Judenrat.
00:22:40 CR3 Steiner says that Slovakia still had an independent state and the Slovaks were in charge of the deportations. The first deportation happened in spring 1942 when 999 girls were deported. After the deportations started, Rabbi Weissmandel was able to provide them with some news from Poland, and they learned that most of those deported were not going to work camps in Germany, as had been promised, and that families were separated.
FILM ID 3415 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 00:00:23 to 00:34:05
CR4 Weissmandel asked Steiner to try and arrange a kosher kitchen in the camps for the orthodox Jews, which Steiner succeeded in doing. Steiner says he began to feel a "magic influence" from Weissmandel and saw what a beautiful person he was on the inside. Weissmandel chose Steiner to be the go-between with Wisliceny, once Hochberg was thrown in jail by the Slovaks.
00:11:36 CR5 Steiner says that there were around 80,000 Jews in Slovakia when the deportations began.
00:12:49 CR6 The deportations from Slovakia quickly became large-scale and Weissmandel convinced Steiner he must bribe both the Slovaks and the Germans, including Wisliceny, to stop the deportations. Steiner tells of his first meeting with Wisliceny, in which he stood up to the German as Weissmandel advised. Steiner invoked "world Jewry" in order to get Wisliceny to believe that he had the money and power to provide a bribe. Lanzmann makes reference to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the powerful influence that the myth of the Jewish world conspiracy had on the Germans.
00:22:47 CR7 Steiner discusses the source of the bribe money, which provided means of communication between camps and the ability to send medical aid. Steiner confirms that the bribe was successful since no deportations occurred between July and September. In October, three more transports occurred, purportedly due to a false report of the number of Jews in the country, though Weissmandel believed it was because the Jews had not offered more bribe money. After this anomaly, however, deportations ceased completely.
FILM ID 3416 -- Camera Rolls #8-14 -- 03:00:08 to 03:33:44
CR8 Weissmandel created a fictitious person named Joseph Rot, based in Switzerland, who represented "world Jewry."
03:00:55 CR9 Steiner and Gisi Fleischmann forged letters from Rot. Steiner says that Weissmandel thought that money would come pouring in to help save the Jews, once it became known what the deportations really meant. In November 1942 Weissmandel burst into Gisi Fleischmann's office, terribly upset, with the first definite news from Poland that deportation meant annihilation. Weissmandel resolved to impart what he had learned of the killings to the world, and wrote to various countries and authorities worldwide. His thinking was that, once the news was known, foreign Jewish money would flow into Eastern Europe to combat the atrocities.
03:11:20 CR10 By bribing Wisliceny they had essentially stopped the deportations from Slovakia (although only 20,000 Jews remained), which encouraged Weissmandel to develop the so-called Europaplan, by which he meant to save the rest of Europe's Jews. Steiner went to Wisliceny and offered two million dollars that they did not have to stop all European deportations. Wisliceny said he had to take the proposition to Himmler, who purportedly said yes to the agreement. Steiner describes Gisi Fleischmann as the person who held the group together. She was a Zionist and very idealistic.
03:22:32 CR11 Steiner speaks of the Europaplan, which was designed to save Jews in France, the Scandinavian countries, and Hungary. Cut early due to telephone ringing.
03:23:34 CR12 Re-take with Steiner discussing the details of the Europaplan. They determined through Weissmandel's "divine arithmetic" that there were around one million Jews left in Europe at this time.
03:24:31 CR13 Re-take with Steiner discussing the Europaplan, fundraising efforts, and negotiations with Wisliceny. Steiner proposed saving 1,000 children who were sent to Theresienstadt from Bialystok, and the failure to raise money to ensure the deal. Solly Meyer, the representative of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee in Switzerland, said he did not believe that the Germans would hold up their end of the bargain. During the Nuremberg trials, Wisliceny stated the reason the children were not saved because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem objected.
03:30:54 CR14 Lanzmann talks to Steiner about the children's transport to Theresienstadt from Bialystok in winter 1942 and visiting the ghetto with a survivor.
FILM ID 3417 -- Camera Rolls #15-17 -- 00:00:23 to 00:34:00
CR15 Lanzmann continues with the story of the children's transport. They were segregated from the rest of the population and given medical care, but after one month they were sent to Auschwitz, where they were gassed upon arrival. Lanzmann confronted Murmelstein about the transport during an earlier interview for the film. This transport has been a mystery that Lanzmann has been trying to solve and now he knows that the children were killed because the money to pay Wisliceny did not come through. Steiner talks about Fleischmann's visit to Hungary. The Hungarian Jews there welcomed her with much pomp and circumstance, a complete contrast from the way the Jews in Slovakia were living. They offered to fundraise and send money, but only through official channels, which was of no use to the Slovak Jews.
00:11:37 CR16 Lanzmann makes a distinction between the aims of the Europaplan, to save all Jews, and the aims of other rescue missions (he mentions Kazstner and Freudiger in Hungary), to pick and choose whom to save. Lanzmann presses Steiner about how he could believe that the Germans, represented by Wisliceny, would have delivered on their end of the Europaplan, if the Slovak Jews had been able to raise the money. Steiner is convinced to this day that the Germans were sincere, and that it was only due to the lack of funds from the "World Jewry" that the plan fell apart. They could not fulfill their side of the deal.
00:22:45 CR17 Even after Wisliceny had left for Greece to organize the deportations of the Greek Jews to Auschwitz, Steiner and company would continue to meet with him during his occasional visits to discuss the plan. Lanzmann asks Steiner what he thinks about the fact that, in September 1944, Weissmandel jumped from a train bound for Auschwitz, leaving his wife and children behind because they refused to come with him. Weissmandel was so disturbed by this series of events that he subsequently considered himself the murderer of his own family. Steiner, however, agrees with what Weissmandel did, and says that while a family could not have escaped in such a fashion, a single person could. The fact that Weissmandel was so integral to the effort to save the European Jews made his survival doubly important. Even though Steiner became quite close with Weissmandel, they never discussed their families. They were concerned with saving unknown multitudes, not their own relatives.
FILM ID 3418 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 00:00:23 to 00:21:37
CR18 Lanzmann asks about Rudolf Vrba, who escaped from Auschwitz and whom Lanzmann interviewed. Vrba claims he gave Weissmandel and the others a description of Auschwitz, from which they made a map and distributed it with a request that the Allies bomb the crematoria and the railroad lines. Steiner talks about Weissmandel's suggestion that they blow up a railroad tunnel. Steiner says the Warsaw Ghetto uprising did not change their minds about positively affecting Jewish fates through means other than armed conflict.
00:11:30 CR19 They talk about the end, when the deportations started again in September 1944. Gisi Fleischmann was sent to Auschwitz, where she died. Steiner joined the partisan assisting in the smuggling of weapons into the camps. Steiner says that according to what he has heard, Gisi Fleischmann was singled out to be the first person in the transport to go into the gas chamber as "special treatment" for her role in the Judenrat. Steiner says that the greatest personal satisfaction he ever got was during his time in the "Rettungsaktion," even if only a small segment of the Slovak Jewry was saved by his actions. Steiner continued work as an architect and became a city planner in Atlanta, Georgia after 1950.
FILM ID 3419 -- Camera Rolls #20,21,23 -- 06:00:08 to 06:04:03
Silent CUs of Lanzmann. LS, Steiner's home in Atlanta. Steiner exits and walks through his yard. Mute.

Abraham Bomba, a barber from Czestochowa, Poland, is featured prominently in the film Shoah. In the outtakes interview he talks about the treatment the Jews received when the Germans first arrived in his town, deportation to Treblinka, and his work cutting the hair of people right before they entered the gas chambers. Bomba escaped from Treblinka and tried to warn the remaining residents of Czestochowa but they did not believe him. In his memoirs published in 2009, Lanzmann calls Bomba "one of the heroes of my film."
FILM ID 3197 -- Camera Rolls #1-3A -- 01:00:06 to 01:33:59
Lanzmann asks Bomba how long he has lived in Israel and how he likes it. Bomba says he was a Zionist when he lived in Czestochowa, Poland before the war. He talks about his family, how hard things were after World War I, and the Jewish community of Czestochowa. When the Germans invaded in 1939 his family tried to flee but they had nowhere to go. He describes the rapid stigmatization and loss of rights suffered by the Jews: mandatory armbands, confiscation of radios and valuables, curfews. In 1941 the ghetto was created. Bomba says that conditions were terrible but that people still had hope. He got married in 1940 and in August 1941 (or 1942?) his wife had a son.
FILM ID 3198 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:06 to 02:21:10
On September 22, 1942, the first deportation from Czestochowa took place, and Bomba's brother and his family were deported. Bomba did not know at this time that deportation meant death. Bomba describes the next deportation, when he and his family were selected and loaded onto trains. He says that the Polish people who watched the trains go by laughed at the plight of the Jews. He describes the train journey to Treblinka and arrival at the camp. He was immediately separated from his wife, child, and mother, and assigned to the red (Jewish) commando.
FILM ID 3199 -- Camera Rolls #5A,8A,9A -- 03:00:09 to 03:23:23
Camera mostly on Lanzmann with some side views of Bomba. Some segments have no picture. Lanzmann clasps Bomba's hand for most of the interview. Bomba describes arrival at Treblinka and his escape from the camp. Some parts (Camera Rolls 8 and part of 9) are repeated from a different view on Film ID 3200.
FILM ID 3200 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 04:00:04 to 04:29:17
[CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bomba was selected to work and he describes the strange quiet that descended after the other prisoners entered the gas chamber, and the location where the corpses were burned. The Germans found out that Bomba was a barber and assigned him to cut the hair of the women before they were gassed. Lanzmann asks Bomba how many people escaped from Treblinka and how he decided to try and escape. Bomba describes his escape from the camp after he had been there for three months [CLIP 1 ENDS].
FILM ID 3201 -- Camera Rolls #10-12 -- 05:00:06 to 05:34:07
[CLIP 2 BEGINS] Bomba and another man manage to return to Czestochowa and tell people there that their relatives who have been sent to Treblinka are dead, but people do not want to believe them. Eventually some of the ghetto residents went to the German commandant, Degenhart [?] and reported Bomba, but Degenhart did not do anything about it [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Lanzmann asks Bomba why he thinks the Jews were so reluctant to believe him about Treblinka. Bomba gives a long answer and says that the Jewish people did not go to the slaughterhouse like sheep, that they did fight back. Bomba talks about the experience of the religious Jews.
FILM ID 3202 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 06:00:00 to 06:11:23
This tape contains footage of Bomba in the barber shop. The man in the chair getting his hair cut is Bomba's friend from Czestochowa. There is no dialogue.
FILM ID 3203 -- Camera Rolls #16-17 -- 07:00:05 to 07:03:24
Bomba describes the appearance of the gas chamber. He describes cutting the hair of the women and children, who thought that they were about to take showers.
FILM ID 3204 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 08:00:06 to 08:32:01
[CLIP 3 BEGINS] Bomba says that the girlfriend of the Jewish commandant, Galewski, arrived at the gas chamber too and he did not tell her what was about to happen. He says the Polish Jews realized more than those from other parts of Europe what was about to happen to them. Bomba tells the story of a woman who managed to cut the throats of two Capos in the gas chamber. One of them died and the Germans gave him a funeral and he was buried, the only proper grave at Treblinka [CLIP 3 ENDS]. Bomba says that the barbers only cut hair in the gas chamber for a short time before they were moved to the undressing barracks. Bomba says it was hard for him to get used to cutting womens' hair again after the war.
FILM ID 3205.1 -- Coupes -- 09:00:00 to 09:04:58
Short, mute clips. Boat at sea. Barbershop.
FILM ID 3205.2 -- Coupes 14A,20B,19A
Short, mute clips. CUS, Bomba sitting outdoors in Israel. CUs, Bomba and Lanzmann during the face to face interview. Beach. Bomba at barber shop.

As a member of a Sonderkommando unit in Auschwitz Filip Müller worked in the crematorium. He describes the gassing and cremation process in precise detail and with great pathos.
FILM ID 3206 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 01:00:13 to 01:28:59
Müller recounts the first time he saw the gas chamber of the crematorium. Müller was a member of the Sonderkommando at Auschwitz. He was assigned to the Sonderkommando in May 1942, when he was 20, and worked as a Heizer, or someone who undressed the corpses (when they were clothed), put them into the crematorium, and stirred the fire while they burned.
FILM ID 3207 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 02:00:16 to 02:28:46
Müller talks about what he witnessed when he worked in the crematorium. He describes how the SS men lied to the prisoners in order to keep them calm. The SS told the prisoners that everyone would be assigned a job, that there was plenty of work, but that they needed to be deloused first. Lanzmann asks Müller whether people went into the gas chambers willingly. Müller says that force was always used on the prisoners. He tells of a woman who tried to warn the other prisoners about what would happen to them. Müller says that most people did not want to listen to what the woman was telling them. Müller speaks briefly about the crematoriums he worked in at Birkenau.
FILM ID 3208 -- Camera Rolls #8-11 -- 03:00:16 to 03:34:16
Lanzmann asks Müller to talk about Crematorium II and the Auskleidungszimmer (changing room) at Auschwitz. Müller also talks about Crematorium V where he worked most often. Lanzmann and Müller look at a book of photos and drawings together. Lanzmann asks Müller about the geography of Auschwitz, the selection ramp in relation to the gas chambers, and the living situations of the Sonderkommando members, who were isolated from the rest of the camp inmates.
FILM ID 3209 -- Camera Rolls #12-14 -- 04:00:19 to 04:28:42
Lanzmann and Müller continue to look at the book of photos and drawings and Müller talks more about the crematoriums at Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks Müller about whether suicide was common among the Sonderkommando. Müller talks about whether prisoners at Auschwitz knew what was about to happen to them.
FILM ID 3210 -- Camera Rolls #15-17 -- 05:00:11 to 05:26:56
At one point, seeing a group of his Czech countrymen go into the gas chamber while singing the Hatikvah and the Czech national anthem, Müller decided to die with them because he felt that there is no reason for him to live any longer. He had also learned a few days previously that the resistance had decided to postpone the uprising yet again. However, a girl named Jana saw him and pushed him out of the chamber, telling him he needed to live to tell the story of what happened to the Jews. Jana also told Müller that he must take a gold chain that she had hidden and give it to her boyfriend Sascha, a Soviet POW, as a last greeting from her. Lanzmann asks Müller to tell him the story of the 600 Jewish boys whose story was recorded by a man named Zalman (?) Loewenthal. Müller reads the story from a manuscript, almost breaking down at one point. Many of the 600 boys were savagely beaten to death by SS men.
FILM ID 3211 -- Camera Rolls #18-21 -- 06:00:12 to 06:31:57
Müller finishes the story of the 600 boys. He says that the members of the Sonderkommando slept in the crematoriums. Lanzmann asks Müller how it was possible to survive in an atmosphere where death was so pervasive. Müller says that he does not think that the desire to survive was necessarily a Jewish characteristic, but rather a human characteristic.
FILM ID 3212 -- Camera Rolls #22-25 -- 07:00:19 to 07:28:58
Lanzmann asks Müller to talk about surviving the selection process of the Sonderkommando. Müller says that at the time, the effects of his work felt more physical than psychological.
FILM ID 3213 -- Camera Rolls #26-28 -- 08:00:17 to 08:33:38
Müller talks about the resistance movement in the camp and some of their plans, but says that the leaders of the resistance never thought the time was right to stage an uprising. He describes the October 1944 uprising and how it happened somewhat by chance.
FILM ID 3214 -- Camera Rolls #29-31 -- 09:00:10 to 09:31:29
Almost all of those who revolted were killed after the suppression of the uprising. He says that the members of the Sonderkommando were nervous when they heard of Himmler's 1944 order to stop mass exterminations at Auschwitz because they didn't know what would become of them. Luckily, the SS men who controlled their fate were equally confused. In January 1945 the prisoners could hear the Soviets fighting the Germans only a few kilometers from Auschwitz. Müller was evacuated and marched west. He ended up at Mauthausen and was liberated by the Americans on 4 May 1945 in Gunskirchen, a sub-camp of Mauthausen. Lanzmann asks Müller about the Kapos who worked in the Sonderkommando. Müller responds that they were for the most part good people, many of whom participated in the resistance. He says that the legend of the evil Kapos did not really apply to those Kapos in the Sonderkommando. He talks about how the prisoners of Auschwitz stopped being afraid of death, because death was inevitable, but that they still cared about the kind of death they were going to suffer. For example, a woman might chose willingly to go into the gas chamber rather than have to witness the shooting of her child. He describes the stages of death in one who dies by breathing Zyklon B gas. He speaks about his own father's death and the lives of the religious Jews in Birkenau and that they attempted to maintain some semblance of religious life. The end of this tape contains short, mute clips of Lanzmann and Müller.
FILM ID 3215 -- Coupes #1A,1B,23A,32-37 -- 10:00:15 to 10:11:25
Close ups of two photographs. A close up of the tattoo on Müller's arm. Shots of Lanzmann listening and taking notes on a pad of paper. An over the shoulder shot of Müller and Lanzmann talking.

Siegmunt Forst escaped Vienna and moved to New York after the war broke out. He talks about his dealings with Rabbi Michael Weissmandel, a Slovakian Jew who tried desperately to tell the world what was happening to the European Jews. Weissmandel begged American Jewish leaders and others for money with which to bribe the Nazis. Lanzmann is interested in the individual and collective choices about whether to resist and/or to rescue, and in this interview and others he clearly views Weissmandel as an important figure.
FILM ID 3119 -- Camera Rolls #12,14,15,17 -- 01:00:02 to 01:38:00
Lanzmann asks Forst about when he first met Rabbi Michael Weissmandel. Forst explains that he did some calligraphy for a book that Weissmandel was publishing. He describes Weissmandel at length. Rabbi Weissmandel saw as early as 1938 that Hitler would take over Europe. He met with the Archbishop of Canterbury several times and tried to convince him to use his contacts with the Canadian government to allow Jews to emigrate there. Forst, a Viennese Jew, moved to New York shortly before the war broke out. As events in Europe progressed, letters and appeals for money from Weissmandel were read aloud in Forst's synagogue. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Forst met Weissmandel again after the war when the rabbi came to Williamsburg. He was a completely broken man. Forst visited Weissmandel, who told him story after story about his experiences, which Forst found overwhelming. As an example, Forst tells the story of when Weissmandel jumped out of a train bound for Auschwitz, leaving his wife and children behind because they refused to come with him. Forst mentions that six months before his deportation Weissmandel publicized plans of Auschwitz that he obtained from two escapees. Forst further describes Weissmandel's manner when he met him after the war. Weissmandel saw Forst as a representative of those people who knew what was happening to the Jews, but simply went about their own business and did nothing. Forst says that Weissmandel halted the transports for many months with promises of money to the Nazis. He says that Weissmandel was the old-fashioned type of Jew who existed by bribing non-Jews and who knew that physical resistance was not possible [CLIP 1 ENDS].
FILM ID 3120 -- Camera Rolls #18,19,21,22 -- 02:00:02 to 02:30:58
Lanzmann asks Forst to return to the fact that Weissmandel saved himself and left his family behind. Forst says that this is the essence of Weissmandel's heroism. His natural drive would have been to go to his death with his family and he did the opposite. Lanzmann and Forst discuss this idea of heroism and its relationship to Judaism. Forst talks about Weissmandel's actions during the war. He mentions his dealings with Wisliceny and efforts which resulted in the delay of transports. Weissmandel thought that bribing the Nazis was the only way to save the Jews. At Lanzmann's urging, Forst revisits the subject of Weissmandel's mental condition after the war. He talks about how Weissmandel would go to the Bowery neighborhood where there were derelicts and people who lived on the street. Forst says, "Everybody who was outside this order attracted him, because he himself was outside this order." He describes a meeting between Weissmandel and Stephen Wise.
FILM ID 3121 -- Camera Rolls #23,24,26 -- 03:00:03 to 03:32:04
Forst talks about the meeting between Weissmandel and Steven Wise, president of the World Jewish Congress. Forst says that Weissmandel did not trust assimilationist or "non-authentic" Jews like Wise and Solly Meyer, the representative of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) in Switzerland. Lanzmann and Forst talk about the assimilationist American approach to helping the Jews, which differed greatly from Weissmandel's efforts to bribe the Nazis and save Jews at any cost. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Forst to explain the Europaplan, Weissmandel's plan to save the European Jews with bribes. Weissmandel presented his plan to Dieter Wisliceny who did not think the plan was feasible. Forst mentions the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the Nazis' obsession with "international Jewry." Weissmandel tried to use the Nazis' fantasies of world Jewish conspiracy against them. Forst turns to Weissmandel's relations with the Catholic Church [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Weissmandel, hoping for help from the Vatican, went to the bishop of Nitra (Weissmandel's hometown), who told him that there is no such thing as innocent Jewish blood because the Jews killed Christ. He also went to the Papal Nuncio but did not receive help from him either.
FILM ID 3122 -- Camera Rolls #27-30 -- 04:00:04 to 04:32:22
Forst talks about the Yeshiva of Nitra, which operated underground during the war. Rabbi Weissmandel built another Yeshiva in Mount Kisko, New York after the war and the first students were sixty young survivors. Forst gives a number of examples of how Weissmandel devoted himself to helping people after the war. Forst and Lanzmann talk about the historical reasons for Christianity's enmity toward the Jews. Lanzmann asks about Weissmandel's opinion of Zionism and whether this opinion was changed by the Holocaust.
FILM ID 3123 -- Camera Rolls #31,34-38 -- 05:00:06 to 05:29:10
Forst talks about how both Germans and Jews have tried to forget the past. In German, this process of coming to terms with the past is called Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung. Forst says that because Weissmandel was a living reminder of this past, he was unpopular. Forst speculates about why the Jews did not physically resist when facing the gas chamber. He talks about the differences between how religious and non-religious Jews viewed the Holocaust and states, "The religious Jew doesn't question God, he questions man." Forst tells the story of Weissmandel's visits to the Bishop of Nitra and the Papal Nuncio in more detail.
FILM ID 3124 -- Camera Rolls #13,16,33 -- 06:00:02 to 06:04:59
Various clips including: Close-ups of Forst, a sketch of Forst (?) hanging on the wall, and photographs of Weissmandel and Forst (?)
FILM ID 3823 – Camera Rolls NY 32,33 -- photos Weissmandel [32M,25M]
Silent shots of photos of Weissmandel in the home of Forst. Two caricature drawings, CUs. 02:31 Bob. 215 (NY 25). Forst smoking, silent shots.

Leib Garfunkel describes the Kovno ghetto, where he was vice-chairman of the Jewish council, and the Aktion of October 1941, during which 9,200 Jews were murdered at the Ninth Fort. This was the first interview that Lanzmann conducted for Shoah and Garfunkel died one week after it was filmed.
FILM ID 3125 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:18 to 01:21:29
No sound until 01:05:32. Irena Steinfeldt, Lanzmann's assistant, reads passages from Garfunkel's book. Garfunkel talks about the first meeting between the Kovno Gestapo and representatives of the Jewish population. He tells of the Germans entering Kovno and the two large pogroms where between 5000 and 6000 Jews were killed. Garfunkel speaks about his dealings with Franz Stahlecker, commander of Einsatzgruppe A, who promised that nothing would happen to the Jews once they were concentrated in the ghetto. There is no sound starting at 01:17:41 through the end of the tape.
FILM ID 3126 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:10 to 02:22:54
Garfunkel describes the ghettoization process and the difficulties associated with moving 30,000 people into the ghetto. He explains that some Jews gave up their valuables to the Germans and the Lithuanian collaborators because they hoped that they could buy their freedom this way. Part of the dialogue is inaudible. Irena Steinfeldt reads a passage from Garfunkel's book about the creation of the Judenrat and the dramatic election of Dr. Elkhanan Elkes as "Oberjude."
FILM ID 3127 -- Camera Rolls #7,8,8/2 -- 03:00:05 to 03:22:24
Steinfeldt reads a moving letter written by Dr. Elkes to two of his children living in England. Garfunkel talks of the danger of having a radio in the ghetto but says that the Jews managed to get news despite their isolation. For example, the Jews in the ghetto knew about the fall of Mussolini, but had to hide their excitement so that the Germans would not become suspicious. Steinfeldt reads from Garfunkel's book about the distribution of Lebensscheine, [life certificates] to the artisans of the ghetto. The Germans intended to clear the ghetto of all but 5,000 skilled Jews.
FILM ID 3128 -- Camera Rolls #9-12 -- 04:00:04 to 04:22:53
Garfunkel describes the hysteria that broke out in the ghetto as Jews, desperate for the Lebensscheine that could potentially spare them from death, stormed the offices of the Jewish Council. The action to separate those who had Lebensscheine from those who did not was canceled at the last moment when a German officer from town arrived with the message to call off the operation. Garfunkel talks about the impossible decision that many Jews in the ghetto faced: who should be saved. He likens the situation to being a "captain on a sinking ship." Steinfeldt reads from Garfunkel's book about the arrival of Helmut Rauca of the Kovno Gestapo, who ordered the entire ghetto population to assemble on the square. The members of the Jewish Council agonized over whether to relay the order to the Jews of the ghetto but ultimately they decided to follow the Germans' orders. Lanzmann questions how the Jews could have followed such an order. Garfunkel says that perhaps some Jews hoped that the Lord would have mercy on them and perform a miracle at the last moment.
FILM ID 3129 -- Camera Rolls #13-16,19-20 -- 05:00:10 to 05:29:05
Garfunkel says that a characteristic of Jews is to try to save what can be saved and to maintain hope up until the very last minute. Lanzmann asks whether there were many suicides in the ghetto and Garfunkel answers that there were very few cases. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Irena Steinfeldt to read Garfunkel's description of the big Aktion of October 28-29, 1941 where 9,200 Jews were sent to the Ninth Fort to be killed. All of the residents of the ghetto had to pass by Rauca so he could decide who would live and who would die. In the confusion, some Jews who were chosen by Rauca to go to the "good" side, ended up on the "bad" side [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Lanzmann and Garfunkel look at photographs together.
FILM ID 3130 -- Camera Rolls #17-18 -- 06:00:06 to 06:03:52
Garfunkel and his wife sit on a balcony. A brief shot of Lanzmann and Irena Steinfeldt walking away from the camera.
FILM ID 3131 -- Camera Roll #21 -- 07:00:04 to 07:04:50
Lanzmann and Garfunkel look at photographs. Close-ups of each photograph. The first two pictures show victims of a pogrom. Dead bodies are scattered on the ground while soldiers and civilians stand around and observe the damage (probably Lietukus Garage massacre). The third picture shows a wide angle view of a pogrom. Garfunkel points out that there are only men in this scene. The next photograph shows members of the Judenrat, including Dr. Elkes. The next picture is of a street scene in the ghetto(?). The following photograph shows people being loaded into a truck after a selection process. In another photograph, Garfunkel points out the Jewish stars sewn to the backs of peoples' coats. The last picture shows members of the Jewish ghetto orchestra. Garfunkel says that Stuffel, one of the members of the orchestra, survived the war and later played in a ghetto survivors' orchestra.
FILM ID 3132 -- Camera Roll #21A
Medium close-up: the camera is first focused on Lanzmann, then Steinfeldt. Close-up of Steinfeldt as she skims through Garfunkel's book, which is written in Hebrew. The camera pans to a desk with photographs on it. No sound.

Jan Karski tells of his capture and torture by the Gestapo when he was a courier for the Polish underground. He also describes his clandestine visit to the Warsaw ghetto and his meeting with Szmul Zygielbojm, six months before Zygelbojm's suicide. See pages 491 - 494 of the English translation of Lanzmann's memoir The Patagonian Hare (March 2012) for a description of his interactions with Karski after filming this interview.
FILM ID 3133 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:33 to 01:32:10
Karski tells of his first missions as a courier for the Polish Government in Exile. [No visual until 01:01:56] He was caught by the SS with an incriminating roll of film and beaten severely. The SS soldier told him that he wanted to get in touch with the Polish underground, but Karski did not reveal any information to him. Karski cut both of his wrists and was transported to various hospitals under the supervision of the Gestapo. With help, Karski escaped from a hospital in Warsaw and after a period of recuperation went to Krakow in 1940. In 1942, he resumed his service as a courier and met with major political parties to deliver messages from the delegates of the Polish Government. He explains that the messages were never written down, but were either memorized or on microfilm. Karski was contacted by representatives of the Jewish underground, who he refers to as the Bund leader (Leon Feiner) and the Zionist leader (Bermann), and met with them in a house near but not in the ghetto. In a manner that Karski describes as desperate, the two leaders asked Karski to take messages to London about the extermination of the Jews. Karski was asked to tell the exiled Polish president to contact the Pope. He was also told not to contact non-Polish Jewish leaders in London because they might become too alarmed and "complicate" matters.
FILM ID 3134 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 02:00:05 to 02:35:47
The Jewish leaders wanted Karski to go to other government officials with messages. They wanted the Allied governments to publicly announce that they would deal with the problem of the extermination of the Jews and to drop leaflets over the German population, telling them that the Germans would be held responsible. Karski was also asked to take messages to certain Jewish members of the exiled Polish government, including Szmul Zygielbojm and Dr. Schwarzbald of the National Council and Dr. Leon Grossfeld of the Polish Socialist Party. The two representatives made it clear that he was not to relay the message to any non-Polish Jewish leader because they feared that it would fuel anti-Polish propaganda. Karski discusses the frustration of Feiner and Bermann that the Home Army refused to supply Polish Jews with weapons. Lanzmann and Karski discuss whether this proves that these two representatives anticipated the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
FILM ID 3135 -- Camera Rolls #11,12,6,11A,32 -- 03:00:04 to 03:07:48
Lanzmann asks Karski how his visit to the ghetto came about. Karski says that it was the Bund leader's idea that if Karski saw the situation with his own eyes, it would strengthen his position when he went to London. Karski says that he and Feiner had no problem entering the ghetto through a tunnel. A brief shot of Karski's wife and then a long shot of Lanzmann with no sound.
FILM ID 3136 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 04:00:09 to 04:33:01
In November 1942, Karski visited Belzec disguised as an Estonian auxiliary. His trip was organized by the Bund leader and the Jewish underground. Karski describes the brutal treatment of Jews as they were loaded onto trucks, either to be taken to Sobibor or left to die on the trucks. Karski says that at the time, Belzec seemed to function as a transitional camp. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Karski to go into more detail about what he saw at Belzec [CLIP 1 ENDS].
FILM ID 3137 -- Camera Rolls #16-18 -- 05:00:08 to 05:18:45
[CLIP 2 BEGINS] Karski talks about watching Jews being pushed onto the trains at Belzec. He describes what he saw as, "a crowd which had many heads, legs, many arms, many eyes, but it was something like a collective, pulsating, moving, shouting body." Karski and Lanzmann talk about the use of quicklime in the trains again. [CLIP 2 ENDS] No sound from 05:11:20 until 05:14:48. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Karski left the camp in a state of shock [CLIP 3 ENDS].
FILM ID 3138 -- Camera Rolls #19,19A,20,20A -- 06:00:01 to 06:21:07
Karski talks about his trip to London in late November, focusing on his meeting with Zygielbojm. Zygielbojm was aggressive with Karski and rude to him. Karski felt that the man was "disintegrating minute by minute."
FILM ID 3139 -- Camera Rolls #21,21A,22 -- 07:00:07 to 07:17:16
Karski describes how Zygielbojm went into a rage after he delivered his report to him. Camera focused on Lanzmann, no sound. Lanzmann asks Karski if he thinks his report contributed to Zygielbojm's suicide six months later. Karski says that he believes that the total helplessness of the Jews and the indifference of the world to the Jewish situation contributed to Zygielbojm's death. He says that while he never mentions to his students his own experiences in the Warsaw ghetto and in Belzec, he always tells them about Zygielbojm.
FILM ID 3140 -- Camera Rolls #23-24 -- 08:00:02 to 08:17:34
Lanzmann asks Karski to whom specifically he reported his news about the destruction of the Jews, and what were the reactions. He tells of being sent to Washington from London and of a meeting with Roosevelt. Karski first told Roosevelt that the Polish nation was depending on him to deliver them from the Germans. Karski said to Roosevelt, "All hope, Mr. President, has been placed by the Polish nation in the hands of Franklin Delano Roosevelt."
FILM ID 3141 -- Camera Rolls #25-28 -- 09:00:11 to 09:33:07
Karski says that he told President Roosevelt about Belzec and the desperate situation of the Jews. Roosevelt concentrated his questions and remarks entirely on Poland and did not ask one question about the Jews. Soon after his meeting with the President, Karski received a message from FDR with a list of several people with whom Karski should speak. One of the people that the President recommended was Justice Felix Frankfurter of the Supreme Court, who came to see Karski in the Polish embassy. Frankfurter listened to his report and said that he did not, could not believe Karski's report. Karski was interviewed by Lord Selborne who was in charge of the European underground movement of the British government. Selborne told him that he knew that Karski's story wasn't true, but that it was good for propaganda purposes, just as it was necessary in World War I to use atrocity stories against the Germans.
FILM ID 3142 -- Camera Rolls #29-31 -- 10:00:07 to 10:21:00
Karski talks about his interactions with the other people to whom he reported. Lanzmann asks Karski whether the people he gave his report to in Washington could truly grasp what was happening in places like Belzec. Karski replies that he doesn't think so. Karski says that what happened to the Jews is not comparable to any other event in history.
FILM ID 3143 -- Camera Rolls #33-35,34,36 -- 11:00:07 to 11:12:30
Karski shows Lanzmann a book with clippings of articles written by him or about him. Karski explains that he could no longer work as a courier or return to Poland because he was too recognizable. Instead, he gave lectures and wrote articles and a book about what was happening to the Jews. In spite of this, Karski says, "Hitler won his war." Close up of Karski as he flips through the pages of the scrapbook.

Hermann Landau talks about the rescue work of Rabbi Weissmandel, as well as rescue efforts based in Switzerland and the U.S. He describes Weissmandel as an increasingly desperate man who would not hesitate to bribe the Nazis or commit violence if it would help the Jews.
FILM ID 3144 -- Camera Rolls #143-146
Lanzmann asks Landau about his first meeting with Rabbi Weissmandel in Switzerland immediately after the war. Weissmandel was enraged with those who did not do more to help the Jews, including Landau, whom he physically attacked when they met. They discuss how Weissmandel jumped from the train bound for Auschwitz, leaving behind his wife and children. While in Switzerland Weissmandel took an entire bottle of sleeping pills and was in a coma for several days.
[CLIP 1 BEGINS] Landau talks about Weissmandel's dealings with Dieter Wisliceny, Adolf Eichmann's deputy. Landau reads from one of Weissmandel's passionate letters about what is happening to the Jews, in which he implores people to send money. They discuss Weissmandel's "Europa Plan." Landau says that they knew, from Weissmandel and from other sources, that the Jews were being exterminated, and that they believed with Weissmandel that money could save some Jews.
01:21 Film clapboard with ident. Roll NY 146. Landau says that at first Weissmandel's approach to rescuing the Jews was nonviolent but that by the end of May 1944, when the Hungarian Jews were being deported, he had changed his mind and wanted the tracks leading to Auschwitz bombed [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Landau mentions that he (Landau) was a member of the Judenrat in Belgium until 1942, when he escaped to Switzerland. He says of course it was wrong for the Judenrat to give lists of Jews to the Germans but that's what they did. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Landau reads another letter from Weissmandel.
FILM ID 3145 -- Camera Rolls #147,148,150,152
Landau explains the meaning of Kiddush Hashem. Lanzmann asks whether any of the recipients of Weissmandel's letters put in the amount of effort that he was requesting toward the rescue of the Jews. Landau says that a couple called the Sternbuchs, who worked for the Vaad Hatzala, worked day and night on rescue efforts, including on the Sabbath. Landau reads some of the strongly-worded cables the Sternbuchs sent to New York. Landau gives some reasons why the American Jews did not give more money to save the European Jews. He says that many of the organizations involved in relief work did not understand that they must use any means necessary [CLIP 2 ENDS].
02:22:30 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Landau talks about the history of the Vaad Hatzala. He says it began as an orthodox organization to save the yeshivas in Eastern Europe and they in fact helped get members of many yeshivas in Lithuania visas to Shanghai via Russia. Vaad Hatzala later worked on rescuing all Jews, not just the orthodox.
FILM ID 3146 -- Camera Rolls #154-158
Landau describes Weissmandel's work with Gisi Fleischmann, who as a woman and a leftist was altogether different from Weissmandel [CLIP 3 ENDS]. He describes Weissmandel's coded cables, with instructions to bomb certain cities, and the negative answers these demands received when they were transmitted to the Allies.
Landau says that after the war Weissmandel still had hope that his wife and children had survived Auschwitz. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] He reads from a letter that was sent to Sternbuch by a relative from Warsaw and deciphers its coded contents for Lanzmann, as an example of how people had to communicate at the time. Landau talks about buying passports for people, which were sent to the ghettos or internment camps [CLIP 4 ENDS].
FILM ID 3147 -- Camera Rolls #149,151,159 -- 04:00:00 to 04:05:40
Mute. Landau praying at synagogue and looking through documents with Lanzmann. CUs of a diary in Hebrew and telegrams.

Paula Biren was a young Jewish woman living in Lodz, Poland when the Germans invaded in 1939. She survived the Lodz ghetto and Auschwitz. In her interview with Claude Lanzmann, Biren describes the occupation of Lodz, ghettoization, the children's Aktion of September 1942, and her deportation to Auschwitz.
FILM ID 3105 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 03:00:09 to
(03:00:09) Biren and Lanzmann are seated outdoors. Lanzmann begins the interview by asking her to start at the beginning, the moment the Germans entered Lodz, what her feelings were, and if she knew at that time what would be at stake. She says that they knew that the city would be invaded but that it was a surprise anyway. The city had prepared for an invasion earlier that summer and Biren was part of a group that helped dig anti-tank ditches. She describes the blackouts and planes flying over the city as well as the general feeling of panic.
(03:04:25) [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Biren if she had a premonition of the fate of the Jews. Biren says that they did have an idea because they listened to the radio broadcasts and knew what was happening to the Jews in Germany but that they hoped it wouldn't happen in Lodz. She talks about the antisemitism in Lodz, the surprise at the swift occupation of the city by the Germans, and the reaction of the city's Polish population once the Germans arrived. Biren notes the Polish reaction to the anti-Jewish decrees, the beatings of Jews, and the confiscation of Jewish property by their Polish neighbors. She recalls having to wear the yellow star and how she didn't want to wear it. She tells Lanzmann that the Germans could not identify who was and who was not Jewish, but that their Polish neighbors knew who the Jews were and often pointed them out to the Germans. Jews, particularly men, were publicly humiliated. She describes the beginning of food rationing and how Jews were pulled out of bread lines by the Germans and by Polish youth [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Sometimes the Poles were even worse than the Germans -- Biren says that she and a neighbor went to see a German commander and the commander ordered their Polish landlord to stop stealing from them.
(03:15:00) Biren describes the formation of the ghetto. Part of the city, equal to a slum, was partitioned off to form the ghetto. She says that each person was allotted a certain number of square feet to live in. She herself was involved in the assignment of living space.
(03:17:15) Lanzmann asks Biren if, even before the war, she felt connected or had a sense of belonging to the city's Jewish life. She replies that she felt very strongly both Jewish and Polish because this was the atmosphere in which she was raised. Her father was a secular Jew who worked for a Jewish newspaper and his family members were Bundists.
(03:19:07) Biren describes the move into the ghetto. She tells Lanzmann that it was an awful and chaotic ordeal and that they could not accept the fact that it was happening. Many Jews went into hiding or fled to Russia during this period. Biren says that she snuck out of the city with a cousin of hers to go to Warsaw to visit her aunt. She thought that things might be better there because Warsaw was an "open city." After a break in the footage, Biren says that in order to get out of Lodz she hid her star under her shawl and tried to pass as a non-Jew. However, when they arrived in Warsaw they found out things were just as bad there and came back to Lodz. Her family of four moved from a large apartment to a small room in the ghetto.
(03:25:02) Lanzmann asks her whether she had a feeling of solidarity with other Jews. Biren replies that there was no sense of community, that people tended to focus on their immediate families. She describes the function of the Judenrat before and after the arrival of the Germans.
(03:28:21) Biren describes her parents as very strong people but states that it was very painful to see them during this period because they seemed so helpless and didn't know what to do any more than she did. She also says that she was mad at them because she thought they should have known what to do and that she felt trapped by her family ties. She could not have left Lodz and left them there. She says that they used sleds to move their belongings into the ghetto because of the heavy snow. It was a sad procession but they would see many more sad processions by the end of the war.
FILM ID 3106 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 04:00:06 to
(04:00:06) The interview has moved indoors. Biren talks about a Polish friend whose father had been captured by the Germans and probably killed. She states that Poles also suffered, but that the Gestapo would come and rob the Jews, how they were beaten, shamed, killed and how she witnessed people living in constant fear even to go into the streets. Lanzmann asks whether she thought the ghetto would protect her and she says that she did not feel this way. She had a fear of being killed which was overwhelming and always present.
(04:02:47) [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Biren describes the organization of the ghetto and Mordechai Chaim Rumkowski's role. She did not know Rumkowski before she entered the ghetto. Rumkowski seemed to take his job in the Judenrat seriously. She says that at first they all made jokes about the idea of a Jewish state but soon realized the situation was serious.
(04:05:05) Lanzmann asks her if she had felt that work meant survival and Biren says that she doesn't remember what she felt because she was so overwhelmed. She notes that the Germans used the confused state of the Jews as a weapon against them and that she didn't realize that people who were allegedly being sent to labor camps were in fact being sent to their deaths. Lanzmann asks her whether she knew at the time that people were being deported to their deaths. Biren says at first she didn't know, that she had suspicions, but by the end of 1941 or 1942 she knew. She says that by this time people were coming into Lodz from nearby small towns and that these people told them that people were being sent to Chelmno.
(04:08:02) Lanzmann asks whether Rumkowski knew what was going on. Biren replies that she thinks he knew. Lanzmann disagrees with Biren and suggests that Rumkowski probably knew quite well what was actually happening.
(04:08:39) They talk about the deportation of the children from Lodz. Biren says that the officials in charge told them that the children were being sent to a special camp to work. She says that this was the worst moment for her in the ghetto, when she heard the announcement that the children were to be deported.
(04:09:52) Lanzmann asks Biren to describe Rumkowski's speeches. Megaphones were set up to broadcast them, and while it was not mandatory to listen, people were naturally curious and would come out to watch. When asked about the atmosphere at these speeches, Biren says that there was often silence and a sense of numbness at first, which then gave way to crying and lamenting. Lanzmann asks if they cried during Rumkowski's speeches and Biren says yes, because the speeches usually meant bad news.
(04:13:09) Lanzmann asks Biren to describe Rumkowski's speech about the deportation of the children. Biren says that Rumkowski claimed to be agonized over the deportation, but he also said that the children would not be killed. Children under the age of nine were taken in September1942. Lanzmann asks her about the parents' reactions, and she says that overall they seemed to think it was a good thing, that the children would be better off. She herself had a sense of relief because her family didn't have any children that age so they would be safe. She says that she listened to some of the mothers and that at first they were upset but they eventually gave consent. She describes how a neighbor of hers, a woman from a little town outside Lodz, refused to give up her little girl. On the day of the deportation this woman told a German officer that she would not give up her child, that she would rather be shot. The German shot the woman and took the child [CLIP 3 ENDS].
(04:20:14) Biren describes the ghetto as "a tower of Babel." She describes how people came in and out of the ghetto. She often had direct contact with incoming transports because of her job distributiong living space. She says that many of the arriving German Jews were older, bewildered and unprepared, and they often ended up dying quickly in the ghetto. Biren talks further about the arrival of the foreign Jews and mutual perceptions between them and the ghetto inhabitants. (04:25:00) [CLIP 2 BEGINS] "It was like a zoo, it was animalistic. We lived, not a human life.... developed a numbness, a dreamlike state...the putting on of a shell. You hope you survive. You fight for survival." [CLIP 2 ENDS] (04:26:26) She describes the hunger and cold and how they had to make their own shoes from scraps. She says that their dignity was taken away. They were encircled by wire, the Germans were guarding them, and outside were the Poles who "didn't give a damn" about them. No one seemed to care about what happened to them.
(04:28:00) They discuss the use of ghetto currency. Biren says that they used it because they were totally cut off from the outside world with or without the currency. She talks about food smuggling and how some were privileged, but those were the people who were largely involved in the Jewish government. Corruption was terrible in the ghetto and the privileged had a better chance to survive. Lanzmann asks how the corruption was felt by the people. Biren uses work as an example. She says that those who had influence could get jobs so it was a form of corruption. When women were compelled to work, she was able to get a job for her mother. (04:30:24) "The worst corruption was about life." Who would be deported, or not. Inevitably it was those without influence."
FILM ID 3107 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 01:00:00 to 01:33:23
(01:00:00) Lanzmann asks if Biren considered herself privileged. She says that she was, in a way. She describes the establishment of a school by Rumkowski for the junior and senior classes, which she was part of. He was a strong Zionist and created the school with the aim of preparing the youth for life in Palestine. Biren was involved in one of the groups who worked on a farm inside the ghetto. She describes how they took over an abandoned orphanage and helped a Jewish farmer manage a farm. She lived there and went to school to learn how to raise crops, milk goats etc.
(01:03:01) "It was a wonderful year." Biren says that she and the other students had enough to eat but were not allowed to take food back to their families. She felt guilty because her family was starving. She says that in her opinion Rumkowski cared for children. This school lasted for about a year before it closed in 1942.
(01:07:14) Biren says that she had various jobs including work in a factory making German military raincoats. She describes this as a horrible experience because it was hard work, they had bad supervisors (Jewish tailors), and they worked day and night. She describes it as an angry, tense situation. This job was given to the girls but the boys had other kinds of jobs. There is a long, awkward silence during which Biren refuses to talk about the kind of work the men did and won't allow Lanzmann to say what it was. This is consistent with her stance throughout the interview of firmly refusing to speak about experiences that were not her own.
(01:10:22) After her factory job, she was given a job in the women's police force organized by Rumkowski. As a side note Lanzmann says that the boys also had this type of job, but Biren, again, does not want to discuss this. She says the whole thing was comical, that it was her job to keep order in the street. Lanzmann asks what the purpose of a women's police force was. Biren says that it was to keep order, which was a problem because of the black market. It was her job to keep the moral order and keep the streets clear. When asked why women and not men did this job she says, "Don't ask me." Biren tells him that the chief of police was a Czech man and that she was an officer. She said that it was comical but she had to do the job so that she wouldn't be deported. She could not arrest people, just bring them into the police station. She also worked in the office in an administrative capacity. Some of the other girls rebelled and protested that the black market peddlers would be deported. She didn't like what she was doing but had to keep the job otherwise she would be deported. She notes that she didn't have the dilemma long because within a week the women's police force was disbanded.
(01:19:41) Lanzmann asks her whether she knew the feelings of the men of the Jewish police, if they felt guilty. Biren says that she doesn't know because they didn't talk about feelings. Lanzmann tells her that he tried to get former Jewish policemen from Lodz to talk about their experiences but they would not. She says that she doesn't know why she herself couldn't talk about it until recently, maybe it was guilt that she had done something wrong, that she didn't do enough, that she is alive and her family is not. She says that she feels she delivered them to the Germans, to Auschwitz. At the time she didn't feel that she had a choice but now she thinks that she did. Lanzmann tells her that she didn't have a choice, that it was either work for the Germans or commit suicide. (01:26:--) Biren notes that after the war, when she and others did want to talk, no one wanted to hear. "I clammed up...wouldn't talk."
(01:30:44) Lanzmann asks her if the police and Jewish administration enjoyed any privileges. She replies that she doesn't think it mattered but that she found it interesting that the people of Lodz, and the ghetto itself, were different from other places because it was the ghetto that was most cut off from the outside world, the most organized, and the longest lasting. She says that it also produced a higher degree of bitterness in survivors, and that there was no uprising in the Lodz ghetto.
FILM ID 3108 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 02:00:10 to 02:27:47
(02:00:10) [CLIP 4 BEGINS] "We were talking about how I felt about the Judenrat [Jewish Council]." She says that she felt they were a tool for extermination because orders from the Germans came through them but that they were also a tool for survival and that's why the people of Lodz went along with them. "After all, the hope was, with orderly conduct..." But in the end, there was no choice. Circumstances didn't allow revolt. The Lodz ghetto was so hermetic.
(02:02:56) Lanzmann questions her about the hangings she witnessed and she tells him that they were used as a tool of death, that they were deadly fear made public. "If we're talking about tools, that was the biggest tool the Germans used." Catch someone for something minor, and make the punishment public. People were forced to watch, from offices, etc. She notes that she saw hangings on at least two occasions. "That was the tool: death." [CLIP 4 ENDS] (02:04:06) Lanzmann asks if the hangman was a Jew, and she says yes, whether forced or a volunteer she does not know.
(02:04:55) Lanzmann then asks her about the liquidation of the ghetto. She says that she was deported in August of 1944 when the order came for everyone to leave. [CLIP 5 BEGINS] When asked whether they went by consent or if they protested she says that she doesn't know, but that they went in a more or less orderly fashion. She says that the majority of the people generally felt that being transported to another camp would be good but that she personally felt that they would not survive. Biren says that Rumkowski made a list of people who would go to a special camp. Most of them were privileged people, and that all the graduates from his school were on this list, including her. She says that she asked her parents whether or not they should go and that they left the decision up to her. She decided that they would not go on this special transport. Instead she and her family tried to go into hiding but there was no place to hide. Only later, she says, did she learn that the transport went to Theresienstadt and that her family could possibly have survived if they had gone. She and her family were sent to Auschwitz [CLIP 5 ENDS]. She describes the immediate separation of her family at Auschwitz. Her mother went directly to the gas chamber and her father to a labor camp. She and her sister survived.
(02:11:19) Lanzmann asks her about the streets in the ghetto. Biren describes them as being very clean, no corpses lying around or anything like that, just hunger and cleanliness. He asks her about a gravediggers' strike but she says that she doesn't remember much.
(02:12:59) Biren talks about the sickness and the hunger, and says there was typhoid and dysentery in the ghetto but that it was always contained. Lanzmann asks her how it was possible to work all day when you are hungry and she replies that it was hard but that she was young. She says that at one point everyone had to work in order to buy food with the ghetto currency but that the black market still existed. Lanzmann asks her who organized the black market. She tells him that she doesn't know, but that it was probably those who worked at the food markets. There was bitterness towards those who were involved in the black-market. She says that camaraderie, love, and family were what kept one alive in the ghetto.
(02:19:26) Lanzmann asks Biren if, in retrospect, she understands the Holocaust or whether it remains a mystery to her. She says that it remains a mystery because she doesn't understand what happened or even why the Poles didn't want her when she came back from Auschwitz. She notes that pogroms started a year after she came back to Lodz and says that was why she left. He then asks her what her feelings towards Europe are. She says that she couldn't wait to get out and that's why she left Poland. Biren tells him how she went to Germany and attended medical school while she waited for a visa, noting how the whole experience was very demoralizing. She also tells him how she visited Europe recently and felt she belonged there; she considers Europe her home and it is painful to feel like she has been banned. At the end of the interview she tells Lanzmann that she can't explain the Polish antisemitism after the war and after all she had been through, even though she did not experience the 1946 pogrom. She says that she had the hope that she would return to Lodz and be welcomed but that was not the case so she has never returned to Poland. She says that she doesn't understand how someone can be banned she doesn't know what her crime was that caused her to be banned from Poland.

Hansi Brand and her husband Joel were members of the Relief and Rescue Committee of Budapest, Hungary, as was Rudolf Kasztner. Brand details her husband's experiences with Eichmann and the "Blood for Goods" rescue scheme. She also addresses the controversy over whether Kasztner neglected to warn the Jews of their fates. She states emphatically that by 1944, of course, everyone knew what it meant to be deported to the East.
FILM ID 3109 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:00 to 01:34:28
For the first part of the interview Hansi Brand speaks Hebrew and Lanzmann English, with the aid of a translator. Lanzmann asks Hansi Brand why she has agreed to talk to him now, when in the past she has refused. She says that her memories oppress her and that people today cannot understand what they [survivors] experienced. He asks her to give her impressions of the personalities of the members of the Relief and Rescue Committee of Budapest, namely Joel Brand (Hansi's husband) and Rezso Kasztner (his name is written various ways, often as Rudolf Kastner). She lists several members of the committee and their pre-war occupations as well as the personal circumstances that led them to get involved in rescue work. (01:13:46 no picture.) She describes how they found out about the killings in Kamenets-Podolsk from her sister and brother-in-law. This was the catalyst for them to begin to act. She says that both she and Joel were Zionists and were awaiting their certificates to emigrate to Palestine, although Hungarian Jewry was still living under the impression that the horrible things that were happening in Germany and Poland would not reach them. (01:23:19 picture returns.)
When the Germans entered Hungary in 1944 it changed their lives completely. It was clear that the Germans were losing the war and the Committee's main focus became helping Jewish "refugees" in Hungarian towns through negotiations and payments to the Germans. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Brand says that one day her husband received a summons to meet Eichmann, who said proudly that he now intended to carry out in Hungary what he had already accomplished in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Eichmann then mooted the "Blut fuer Waren" (Blood for Goods) scheme and told Joel that 10,000 Jews could be saved for every truck procured for the Germans by the Committee. Joel was shocked at the suggestion and told Eichmann he must discuss it with the other members of the Committee. Although the idea was macabre, the Committee felt forced to consider it.
01:29:57 (Camera Roll 5) Lanzmann and Brand begin speaking directly to each other in German, without the translator. Brand says that the members of the Committee considered the idea all night long. They knew they must do something to try to rescue those Jews who remained alive, after 5,000,000 had already been murdered. It was clear to them that the Germans themselves knew they were losing the war. Some, like Eichmann, wanted to profit personally [and for Germany?] but others wanted to save their own lives, knowing that they would be held responsible for their actions after the war. The Committee decided that Joel should travel to Istanbul, as suggested by Eichmann. Lanzmann asks whether Joel wanted to go and Brand says it is not as simple as that he "wanted" to go. Bandi Grosz, another Hungarian Jew (Brand refers to him as Grosz Bandi), had his own mission: to meet with the American ambassador in Turkey [Laurence] Steinhart. She says that the Germans chose Joel and Bandi Grosz to go on the mission [CLIP 1 ENDS].
FILM ID 3110 -- Camera Rolls #6-8 -- 02:00:05 to 02:33:35
Lanzman says that people have suggested that Joel Brand was not the best man for the mission to Istanbul, and asks whether there was a rivalry between Joel Brand and Kasztner. Hansi Brand says not at first, but that Kasztner did want to go to Istanbul, as did Kasztner's father-in-law. She says that in her opinion success would not have been achieved no matter who went to Istanbul. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Brand herself stayed in Budapest with her two children, serving as hostages. She took Joel's place as a representative to the Germans, although certain committee members disapproved of a woman in this position. She explains that one could not tremble before the Germans or show fear but instead act as if you were an actual partner in the negotiations. She says that her husband took her to meet Eichmann before he went to Istanbul, which surprises Lanzmann because Kasztner did not mention this fact. Lanzmann asks her to describe exactly the meeting with Eichmann. She says that the apartment (in a hotel) that Eichmann was using as his headquarters was the same apartment that she and Joel had lived in up until a few months previously. Eichmann told her that she would be required to contact him every day while Joel was in Istanbul.
Hansi Brand decided to take Kasztner to Eichmann, which was the beginning of the negotiations to bring the Jews from the provinces (Cluj and, as she insists, other places) to Budapest. Lanzmann asks what they knew about Auschwitz at that time and how they heard the news. Brand says they knew quite a lot, they had reports that came to them from Weissmandel, Gisi Fleischmann and Vrba (she does not remember him by name), and that they did what they could to get the news out. She says that Eichmann told her husband that he should hurry on his mission to Istanbul, because 12,000 Jews per day were taken to Auschwitz. Lanzmann questions Hansi Brand about the highly controversial rescue mission, the Kasztner Train (Lanzmann does not use this term), especially about the "privileged" nature of the transport and the 388 passengers from Cluj, Kasztner's home town. Brand says that she and Kazstner met often with Eichmann. She talks about how they felt when they met with him and how Eichmann's mood influenced the negotiations. The discussions were very difficult and sometimes Eichmann would shout at them that they should not imagine he actually cared about the Jews [CLIP 2 ENDS].
02:22:34 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Lanzmann says that Kasztner is sometimes criticized for not warning the Jews in Cluj, for example, about what would happen to them in Auschwitz. Hansi Brand says that is the most evil lie and gives examples of Jewish leaders from Cluj (she uses the German name of the town, Klausenburg) who knew quite well what Auschwitz meant. Lanzmann says that some people from Cluj who survived Auschwitz later complained that they were not told what it meant to be sent to the camp. Hansi Brand says that many people did not want to know that the Jews were being exterminated. She finds it impossible that anyone could not know by 1944 what was happening in German-occupied areas. She talks about the postwar Kasztner trial, in which Judge Benjamin Halevi believed the witnesses against Kasztner [CLIP 3 ENDS]. They continue to talk about how much information was or should have been given to the Jews of Cluj.
FILM ID 3111 -- Camera Rolls #9-13 -- 03:00:00 to 03:34:07
[CLIP 4 BEGINS] In answer to a question from Lanzmann, Hansi Brand attempts to describe her emotional and mental state knowing that 12,000 Jews were being sent to Auschwitz every day and that she and Kasztner were negotiating with Eichmann in an attempt to save some small number of Jews. She says that they were always between fear and doubt and hope. He asks her to describe how it was possible to discuss the matter with Eichmann from a business standpoint when they knew what was happening to the Jews in the meantime. She says they had no other way out and, in addtion, she and Kasztner were arrested during this time by the Hungarian Abwehr (?), who wanted information about Joel's mission. She was beaten but did not reveal anything and was eventually released on a direct order from Himmler. After she was released she was brought to [Gerhard] Clages, Himmler's chief of security in Budapest. [CLIP 4 ENDS] The last few seconds of this camera roll has sound but no video.
03:11:31 Lanzmann asks Hansi Brand to return to the question of the burden on her soul (seelische Belastung) caused by negotiations with Eichmann. Lanzmann reads two quotations from the "Kasztner Report, " in which Kasztner expresses a kind of guilt for negotiating with Eichmann, and asks for Hansi Brand's reaction. She says that he wrote this after the war, and that they did not only rely on the Germans but took other measures such as preparing bunkers and making false papers. [CLIP 5 BEGINS] She says that the "Blood for Goods" deal would have worked if they could have procured the goods from other countries. They circle back to the question of whether Kasztner should have informed the Cluj Jews of imminent danger and Lanzmann asks what Hansi Brand thinks of the accusation that Kasztner saved certain people from Cluj (his own family and Zionists). She says that she would ask him what he would have done, whether Lanzmann would have acted for his own family? Lanzmann says, "That is a very good answer." Brand says that Kasztner would not have been human otherwise. Lanzmann asks Brand to explain how people were chosen for the transport to Bergen-Belsen (the so-called Kasztner Train rescue mission). She says that the types of people chosen varied greatly but included the most endangered refugees, Zionists, Jewish intellectuals, orphans, and rich people, whose wealth helped pay the $1,000 per-person ransom demanded by the Germans.
Lanzmann asks if there were old people in the transport, and whether Kasztner was a vain man. She answers that Kasztner was as vain as any other person, that it is a human quality. Lanzmann asks why [Andreas] Biss (another member of the Committee) hated Joel Brand so much and Hansi Brand answers that it had something to do with [SS officer Kurt] Becher, whom Hansi and Joel Brand were "against" after the war, while Biss was "for" Becher (Kasztner testified on Becher's behalf after the war). Lanzmann continues to question Kasztner's character and Hansi Brand continues to defend him. He asks why she thinks her husband's mission to Istanbul did not succeed and she replies that the English did not want to help the Jews because they did not want to deal with the problem of Palestine. She says further that the Jews in Palestine were not informed as to what was happening. She ends the interview by defending her husband against historians who say that he did not return to Budapest out of fear for himself (Joel Brand was arrested by the British in Aleppo and eventually ended up in Palestine) [CLIP 5 ENDS] .

Ruth Elias was a Czech Jew who was sent with her family to Theresienstadt, where she became pregnant. She managed to hide her condition in Auschwitz but was eventually discovered and she and her baby were experimented upon by Mengele. She speaks of these experiences and of her solidarity with other women prisoners.
FILM ID 3112 -- Camera Rolls #1-2 -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:46
Ruth Elias tells of her early life growing up in Czechoslovakia. She describes the Germans entering Czechoslovakia in 1939. The foreman of her father's factory immediately seized it from him and the family lost their flat. Her father avoided being sent to Nisko and they lived in hiding in the countryside. On 4 April 1942 they were caught and sent to Theresienstadt, where she was housed in a large room in the Hamburger Kaserne with many other women.
FILM ID 3113 -- Camera Rolls #3-4 -- 02:00:13 to 02:10:53
[CLIP 1 BEGINS] Seven days after arrival her entire family was summoned for a transport but she became ill and could not go. Her father insisted that she go, so she married her boyfriend in order to stay. The rest of her family went on the transport and she never saw them again [CLIP 1 ENDS].
FILM ID 3114 -- Camera Rolls #5-9A -- 03:00:12 to 03:33:50
She became a trainee nurse and her husband joined the Ghettowache. Lanzmann asks her about the experience of the elderly in Theresienstadt. She received a card from her father saying that her mother had been shot before his eyes. She was hungry all the time and decided to leave nursing to become a cook so that she could be near food. She and the others sang in the kitchen as they worked.
FILM ID 3115 -- Camera Roll #10 -- 04:00:14 to 04:11:15
She demonstrates for Lanzmann one of the songs they used to sing, and accompanies herself on the accordian. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] She says that she was able to live with her husband and another couple and in the summer of 1943 she became pregnant. She tried to have an abortion but it had recently been officially forbidden by the Germans [CLIP 2 ENDS].
FILM ID 3116 -- Camera Rolls #11-12 -- 05:00:06 to 05:19:10
[CLIP 3 BEGINS] She and her husband were deported to Auschwitz in December 1943. She describes the rail journey, arrival at Auschwitz, the work and the food. She and her husband were in the Czech Familienlager. They learned from other prisoners that people were being killed at Auschwitz but they didn't want to believe it. In March 1944 an entire transport of people was removed from the Familienlager and gassed. She talks about the orchestra in Block 6 [CLIP 3 ENDS].
FILM ID 3117 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 06:00:16 to 06:33:43
[CLIP 4 BEGINS] She was transported from the Familienlager to the Frauenlager, and when she was eight months pregnant managed to survive a selection by Mengele by hiding behind other girls. She was sent to Hamburg to work cleaning debris at a bombed oil refinery. When it was discovered that she was pregnant she was sent to Ravensbrueck. She and another pregnant woman were then sent back to Auschwitz [CLIP 4 ENDS] [CLIP 5 BEGINS] but they manage to remove the yellow triangles from their clothing and pose as Czech political prisoners upon their return to the camp. The two pregnant women come to the attention of Mengele. Elias describes Mengele as an attractive and polite man, of whom she was very frightened. Once her baby girl is born he orders that her breasts be bound to prevent her from breastfeeding, so that he can see how long a baby can live without food. Her baby cried and became weaker for several days until Mengele came and told her that the next day he would come for both of them. She knew she was to be gassed [CLIP 5 ENDS].
FILM ID 3118 -- Camera Rolls #16-18 -- 07:00:10 to 07:36:56
[CLIP 6 BEGINS] A woman doctor brought her a needle filled with morphine and told her to inject the baby with it, thinking that if the baby died Elias would be allowed to live. She injected the baby and Mengele sent her on the next transport to forced labor near Leipzig. At this camp she manages to consistently steal bread for herself and the other women. In early 1945 the Lagerfuehrer discovers that she can sing and orders her to organize a variety program in order to take the Germans' minds off the constant Allied bombing. It was during the rehearsals for this program that Ruth met her current husband, Kurt Elias [CLIP 6 ENDS]. [CLIP 7 BEGINS] They were liberated by the Americans and after the war she returned to Czechoslovakia and discoverd that none of her family members survived. She went into a deep depression and spent time in a sanatorium but eventually regained the will to live. In 1965 she located the woman who saved her life, the Jewish doctor who gave her the injection for her child. She remains very close to this woman today. She says that when her first boy was born she panicked when they came to take him away, thinking they would kill him. Nobody understood or wanted to understand what the survivors had been through at that time [CLIP 7 ENDS]. She ends the interview by talking about her love for Israel.

Ehud Avriel was born in Vienna and became active in escape and rescue operations after the Germans invaded. He continued this work once he reached Palestine in 1939. Avriel later held several positions in the Israeli government.
FILM ID 3100 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 01:00:07 to 01:33:11
Roll 1
01:00:07 Ehud Avriel sits in a chair in front of a window overlooking the ocean, most likely in a hotel or office in Tel Aviv, Israel. Claude Lanzmann remains off camera while he asks Avriel questions about the missions he was involved in during the war. Avriel was part of a group of emissaries called the Haganah that worked to establish contact with Jews in ghettos and occupied countries in order to help them escape. He arrived in Istanbul in the winter of 1942-43. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Avriel worked with Danny Schind and lived with other Haganah members and their mission at that time was to organize the departure of boats from Bulgaria and Romania to bring Jews to safety in Turkey. It was very difficult and dangerous because telephones were unreliable and were able to be interfered. The Mossad was a part of the Haganah focused on emigration into Palestine. One of their greatest challenges was finding trustworthy people in hostile countries, though Bulgarians treated the Jews very well there was still a fear that they would betray them or the Gestapo would find out about these secret missions. 01:11:15
Roll 2
01:11:18 Another problem they faced once they were able to get the Jews out of Bulgaria was how they were going to try and get them into Turkey. Turkey wanted to remain as neutral as possible and feared allowing Jews into the country would alter this neutrality. For the Haganah it was a matter of convincing the Turkish government that these refugees would leave once the war was over. The challenge was trying to figure out a way to guarantee that the Jews would in fact leave. Once they were able to accomplish bringing the Jews into Turkey the next mission was to transport them illegally through Syria and Lebanon to Palestine. They were in constant talks with the British government about making the move to Palestine official. Lord Cranborne, the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in England at the time, released a statement which said that Jews who were able to get to Turkey on their own, without the help of any groups like the Mossad, would be granted access into Palestine. At the same time, Major Arthur Vitold contacted Mossad. Avriel reads from the letter that was sent from Vitold which stated that secretly he would allow Jews to go to Turkey and Palestine that had been assisted by Mossad. Publicly the British government acted very strict about the placement of Jews in Palestine, but secretly there was transit permission. 01:22:23
Roll 3
01:22:33 Upon learning this information the Haganah rushed to resume and maximize their mission. Lanzmann asks Avriel about how much of the extermination they were actually aware of at the time. Avriel states that they were completely aware that the Nazi's goal was to exterminate the Jewish population and that they had the capabilities to follow through. In the spring of 1943 they were aware of Auschwitz and Treblinka and other extermination camps. Though they were aware of the mission they never imagined the brutality of it such as the gas chambers. The Haganah had instant contact with the Jews in the ghettos as of the early 1940s, but it was difficult to penetrate the concentration camps. The mail they received was written in coded language, Jews would often use Hebrew words as names of people they were writing about in order to inform the Haganah of what was happening. 01:32:38
Roll 4
01:32:40 Avriel reads an example of a postcard they would receive. 01:33:11
FILM ID 3101 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 02:00:06 to 02:33:36
Roll 5
02:00:06 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Avriel sits indoors in Israel and reads a letter the Haganah received from a Jew in Warsaw, Poland. The letter reads pleasantly, but Avriel explains the code words that reveal it is a letter about the extermination of millions of Jews. CU of Avriel as he reads the letter. Avriel reads another letter from the Bedzin ghetto on the Polish/German border. It is from November 10, 1942 and sounds like a normal letter of correspondence, but the coded words reveal the description of certain people being brought to death camps and the hopelessness the author of the letter is feeling. Letters were sent by regular mail and though secret or double agents who worked for the Haganah and for the other side. Avriel discusses how close they were to the German embassy where Mr. von Papen was the ambassador. In order to continue their operation they had to pretend be employed with something else like newspaper correspondence and marmalade production. 02:11:21
Roll 6
02:11:24 Lanzmann asks Avriel about when he came to know about Joel Brand. Avriel states that after the Nazi occupation of Budapest in 1944 they received a telegram regarding Brand, but under an alias. They arrived in an official German government airplane without proper visas. In a meeting with all the emissaries from Palestine Joel Brand spoke of a meeting he had with SS Officer Eichmann in which Eichmann stated he would trade Jewish lives for goods such as trucks, soap, tea and coffee. While Avriel and the Haganah were in awe of Brand's presence they were also very confused about Eichmann's proposal, it was difficult for them to believe. 02:22:25
Roll 7
02:22:31 Avriel recounts what happened at the meeting after Joel Brand told of Eichmann's proposal. Bandy Gross pulled Avriel aside and told him that everything Brand said about Eichmann is actually a hoax. There was much confusion over who or what to believe. Joel Brand thought the Haganah in Istanbul was much more powerful than they actually were, it was difficult to explain to him that they did not have the resources or money or support to accomplish such an operation. Avriel says Brand had fallen for the Nazi belief of Jewish groups being all-powerful. Avriel understands the Nazi influence because he lived under the Nazis in Vienna in the late 1930s. 02:33:36
FILM ID 3102 -- Camera Rolls #8-11 -- 03:00:07 to 03:38:28
Roll 8
03:00:07 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Avriel sits indoors in Israel as he tells Lanzmann of when he lived in Vienna. He describes the power of Nazi propaganda and how he too fell victim to it during this time. He sympathizes with Joel Brand because he had no idea he was being tricked. Brand probably saw Istanbul as a country of freedom and that the Haganah was all powerful, able to have influence over Roosevelt and Churchill, when in fact none of this was true. Avriel and Danny Schindt were convinced that Brand's meeting with Eichmann was a German trick to use Jews as bait. The Haganah went to Vitold for help and Avriel believes he did everything he could to help them. Meanwhile Brand was attacking them for not acting fast enough saying that every hour they let pass ten thousand more people were dying. Brand was disappointed with their limitations. 03:12:45
Roll 9
03:12:47 Avriel says that Brand spoke like a Biblical prophet telling them they were not doing what they should. While they sit safe in Turkey ten thousand people were dying per hour. Avriel recounts how hard this was to listen to especially because they actually could not do anything quick enough or large enough to help those numbers of people. 03:16:09
Roll 10
03:16:13 Avriel says that Brand talked to them like he was going back to Hungary. His entire family was still there. Brand was very convincing because he seemed like a man who only spoke the truth. The Turks refused to allow Brand to stay in Istanbul, but he did not want to return to Hungary empty handed. Brand felt as though he had let his people down. They devised a plan to fabricate an interim accord document that stated that Brand had instructions from Chaim Weizmann. This plan was supposed to buy Brand more time when he returned to Budapest. 03:27:18
Roll 11
03:27:19 [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Avriel discussed how little they knew in 1944 and how much they had to speculate about Brand and Gross' intentions for their visit to Istanbul. They had theories about Himmler wanting to make contact with Eisenhower. Brand was so convinced that Eichmann was going to stick to his word and stop the deportation of Hungarian Jews. They had to convince Brand that Eichmann did not have the power to "stop the machine." Brand met with Shertock in order to further the fabrication that they had devised to buy Brand more time in Istanbul. 03:38:28
FILM ID 3103 -- Camera Rolls #12-15 -- 04:00:06 to 04:32:43
Roll 12
04:00:06 Avriel continues to discuss Joel Brand as he sits indoors in Israel. After they had all the information they could get from Brand it became about returning him safely. They knew he would never survive crossing a Nazi border on his way back to Hungary, so the Haganah decided to inform the British government with the hopes that they would be interested in saving or detaining Brand. Avriel wonders if what he speaks of is information he knew at the time or actually a combination with things he has learned since the war. He thinks Brand lost his courage and his will and that is why he did not bring the fabricated accord to the Nazis in Hungary. 04:11:13
Roll 13
04:11:15 [CLIP 5 BEGINS] Because Brand had lost his courage, Avriel and Barder decided to go to Budapest to continue negotiations with the Nazis. The entire mission was a mistake. Avriel and Brand travelled from Istanbul to Aleppo together. Brand disappeared at the end of the train ride. Later Avriel learned from Sharet that Brand was arrested. Lanzmann and Avriel then discuss Kasztner. The negative reel (picture) has ended and it is only audio until 04:25:41.
Roll 14
04:25:42 Lanzmann questions Kasztner's integrity for testifying in favor of Becher in Nuremberg. Avriel explains why he believes it was an error in judgment and not an evil action. 04:28:44
Roll 15
04:28:46 Lanzmann is shocked by Itsak Gruenbaum's text which seems contradictory because while he was on a public committee to save the European Jews he was also placing Zionist edification above the rescue. Avriel disagrees that this was Gruenbaum's actual mindset and argues that even if it was it did not matter because he had no authority over the people. Avriel discloses that Gruenbaum's son was a Communist that collaborated with the Nazis. Avriel discusses how Gruenbaum was a politician and not an authority. 04:32:43
FILM ID 3104 -- Coupes -- 05:00:05 to 05:07:56
(Silent) 05:00:05 Claude Lanzmann sits in a chair and writes in a notebook. He smokes a cigarette and looks at the people off camera. CU of Lanzmann with his glasses on. He adjusts himself in his chair and listens intently to Avriel. CU of Lanzmann as he lights a cigarette. CU of Lanzmann as he writes. 05:06:07 CU of Lanzmann laying down. Camera zooms out to reveal Lanzmann lying in bed. Lanzmann, shirtless, sits in bed under the sheets and lights a cigarette. He is talking to someone off camera. The camera zooms in on his face while he smokes a cigarette. 05:07:56

Hersh Smolar, was the editor of a Yiddish daily newspaper. After the war began, he became a leading member of the resistance in the Minsk ghetto and the commissar of a partisan group operating in the Belorussian forests. He discusses conditions in the ghetto and resistance activities.
FILM ID 3376 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:07 to 01:30:17
Hersh Smolar was an editor of a Yiddish daily paper in Bialystok and left for Minsk by foot in June/July 1941 to get out. [The Germans advanced into Minsk on June 28, 1941, blocking all roads for evacuation]. He found Minsk abandoned by the Russian government with about 70,000 Jews remaining in the city when the Germans came. He believed that Communism could solve the Jewish problem, and rather than abandoning his "people" (the Jews) to take an offer of refuge with an acquaintance, he stayed in the Minsk ghetto. The Germans immediately ordered the establishment of a Jewish ghetto in Minsk on July 19, 1941.
CR2 Smolar describes how the head of the Judenrat was selected by the Germans. The Russian government "escaped like cowards". Most of the Jews in Minsk did not know what Hitler represented since it was forbidden to write about fascism in the press. There were rumors but no one believed them. They thought they could negotiate with the Germans, or simply live. The first realization came in November 1941 on the Anniversary of the October Revolution when the Germans provoked the Jews and made them hold red flags in order to promote propaganda back in Germany that Jews are Bolsheviks. Some Jews were shot and the first transports were sent away. Smolar and others established an organization in the ghetto to inform people about fascism. Responding to Lanzmann's questioning, he describes the conditions in the ghetto and forced labor of skilled workers. He suggests that there was not a quiet period in the Minsk ghetto. People were murdered daily (shooting in the streets, fighting between the military and the Nazi party, Aktions).
CR3 01:19:05 Smolar sings. Smolar was already in hiding at the time of the red flag provocation by the Germans. The slogan of the resistance organization referenced earlier was "ghetto is death"; it was established in the beginning of September 1941, just three months after the ghetto was established. The primary emphasis was to get Jews out of the ghetto. Smolar was the secretary of the resistance movement and convinced the head of the Judenrat to collect contributions for the organization and the partisans. The resistance movement was active in the ghetto for two years, with contacts from the Aryan side to find people (Communists) willing to fight the Germans. Smolar escaped to the woods in August 1942. He faced criticism because he was not given authority from the Central Committee to start an organization. He talks about the liquidation of the Minsk area and Aktions against Jews. Smolar did not witness many events in the ghetto when he was in hiding; the details were reported to him by the ghetto police.
FILM ID 3377 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:08 to 02:33:58
CR4 The devastation of the Purim Aktion convinced many that staying in the ghetto meant death. So, they began to arm themselves with guns from Italians and Russians. He describes an Aktion where the Germans buried Jewish children alive under the watch of the German general commissioner Wilhelm Kube. The ghetto resistance group organized with the Soviet military on the Aryan side. Smolar tried to convince the Soviets that by saving Jews they were fighting the Germans, but anti-Semitism fueled a conflict and the Soviets turned the resisters into the Gestapo, even though the Jews had secretly sent medicine, a printing press, and clothes to the forest for the Soviet partisans. Lanzmann asks about freedom in the ghetto. Smolar suggests that Jews of Minsk were different than the Jews of Warsaw with their mission to get out of ghetto and to fight. He confirms that the Judenrat collaborated with the resisters until March 1942 (the Purim Aktion).
CR5 02:11:21 After the Purim Aktion, the Gestapo considered the Judenrat a resistance organization and hanged all the members in the street with signs saying, "Stalin's Bandits". Joffe, a Jew from Vilna, was named the new leader of the Judenrat, but there were no relations with Smolar's resistance group. A reward for "Jefim Stolarewich" (Smolar's ghetto name) was announced. The Gestapo shot 72 Jews who were questioned about Smolar's whereabouts and said they would kill everyone if they couldn't find "Jefim". Smolar hid in a Jewish hospital safe from Germans afraid of contracting typhus. Joffe showed the Gestapo a document listing "Jefim" as dead and they believed him. The Gestapo pressured and tortured the resisters' Soviet contacts on the Aryan side in July 1942. So, Smolar and his group decided to establish a Jewish partisan base outside the ghetto not only to fight the Germans but also to rescue Jews of the Minsk ghetto. Their task was to save any Jew who could escape the Minsk ghetto to the forests.
CR6 02:22:43 The police issued a false passport to Smolar so he could move about freely. The Jews of Minsk created seven detachments of partisans (more than 2,000 people), mainly in Naliboki Forest. In 1943, there were 20,000 partisans in the forest, including Jewish children. Smolar addresses trading guns in the ghetto and frightening the police with wooden guns. In June 1942, Smolar was still wanted by the Gestapo and hid in an attic for two months. Then, there was an Aktion for three days when 20,000 Jews were shot, leaving only 9,000 alive in the ghetto. A Russian woman helped Smolar leave the ghetto by an order of the Soviet organization based outside the ghetto. From her flat near Kube's headquarters, Smolar sent underground messages to help get Jews into the forest. He was discovered by the Gestapo and returned to the ghetto, where he hid in a pit, managed to escape, and created a new detachment in the forest. 02:33:48 Picture ends.
FILM ID 3378 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 03:00:08 to 03:33:47
CR7 9,000 Jews remained in the Minsk ghetto after the Aktion. Jews from Germany and Czechoslovakia were sent to Minsk, and many refused to go to the forest. The relationship between Western and Eastern Jews was not great. They dealt in trade matters only. Smolar describes the primary means of murder of the German Jews by gas vans, in contrast to the Eastern Jews who were shot and burned. He expresses shock at the behavior of the German Jews and their illusions of survival. The Minsk ghetto was divided. Kube privileged the German Jews. Smolar begins to describe a plot to poison vodka sent to the German front.
CR8 03:11:28 The Soviets advised Smolar to abandon the poison plot, suggesting that chemicals should not be used in war. Smolar discusses additional methods of sabotage that his resistance organization pursued. In the forest, he led the Jewish brigade. The news of the ghetto being liquidated (received in September 1943) gave the Jewish partisans courage. German soldiers escaped through the forest in July 1944 and fought the already free partisans with force. Jewish partisan survivors were invited to march along with all the Russian partisans; those from the Minsk ghetto were selected to lead the parade. 10,000 Jewish partisans survived the war; of them, 5,200 had escaped from the ghetto in Minsk. Smolar suggests that the Soviet Jews had experience fighting as partisans. Lanzmann inquires about the death of German Jews by gas van, which Smolar again describes in detail.
CR9 03:22:40 Lanzmann asks Smolar if he still considers Communism a solution to the Jewish problem. He says that Communism was an answer in the 1920s, but now, the only alternative is a national sovereign Jewish state, which is why he emigrated to Israel. Smolar insists on being surrounded by Jews. Smolar's battle decorations include the Red Star, a partisan medal with Stalin's portrait for victory over Hitler's Germany, and a Polish officer's cross. Smolar left Poland in December 1970 for Paris to write an anthology of Jewish poetry, and eventually illegally emigrated to Israel.
FILM ID 3379 -- Camera Rolls #10A,B,C -- 04:00:08 to 04:02:44
CUs, Red Star, other medals, Polish cross, etc. [mute]
FILM ID 3380 -- Camera Roll #11 -- 05:00:07 to 05:02:44
Wartime photographs. [mute]
FILM ID 3381 -- Camera Rolls #12A,B -- 06:00:08 to 06:01:01
Photograph of a house in black and white. [mute]
FILM ID 3382 -- Camera Roll #13 -- 07:00:08 to 07:10:00
CUs of Lanzmann conducting the interview - nodding and smoking. [mute]

Gustaw Alef-Bolkowiak (Bolkoviac) addresses the tension between Polish and Jewish resistance movements and the question of Polish antisemitism. He talks about arms in the Warsaw ghetto, the Bund, the Zegota Council to aid the Jews of Poland, Poles who hid Jews, and Communist partisans.
FILM ID 3373 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 01:00:00 to 01:18:05
Note: There is no transcript for Rolls #1-4 (it is either nonexistent or missing). Lanzmann says he wants to talk about Bolkowiak's involvement as a leader of the Communist Resistance movement in the Warsaw ghetto and describes that he is particularly passionate about the details of the Judenrat that appear in the tv series "The Holocaust". He wants to know if Bolkowiak's opinions of the Judenrat and their role have changed since the war. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bolkowiak says that he knows the functioning of the Judenrat in Warsaw particularly well, and then goes on to describe the relationship between the Nazis and the Judenrat in the ghetto (Nazis, knowing full well that they would eventually liquidate the ghetto, still wanted to "play" with the Jewish people and have them pursue somewhat regular lives during their time there). He claims that the Judenrat was not a ruling party, but was rather an organization that existed solely to realize the objectives of the Nazi Party. It was a collaborationist and corrupt organization. Bolkowiak talks about why he saw the Judenrat as a primarily negative institution, but then goes on to mention several members of the "conseils" (of different sectors) who did all that they could for the people of the ghetto. He talks about one member of the Jewish police force who was also a member of Bolkowiak's organization "bloque anti-fasciste", though this was an unusual occurence. Lanzmann asks about the recruitment of the police officers in the ghetto and Bolkowiak explains that it is difficult to say that they all came from one social class. He says that most members of the police force were jurists, to which Lanzmann retorts "la justice et la police". Lanzmann asks about Bolkowiak's work with children in the ghetto. Bolkowiak explains that he worked with (rounded up, fed, gave a place to sleep) children who were orphaned or close to death, but that in the end, he and his colleagues only saved these children for a few months because they were all eventually deported. Bolkowiak says that while he was in the ghetto, he did all that he could to revolt against the control of the Judenrat. Bolkowiak begins to explain that once the deportations started, people did all that they could to save their own lives, which meant acquiring work papers/documents. Bolkowiak was saved three times from being sent to Treblinka because a secretary, who knew he was a member of the resistance, did what he could to save certain people (members of the resistance, doctors, etc.) from deportation. He talks about how the Jewish police were the ones responsible for carrying out the round ups, not the Germans.
FILM ID 3374 -- Camera Roll #6 -- 02:00:00 to 02:11:45 (sound only)
Lanzmann starts by asking Bolkowiak to discuss the birth of the resistance movement. Bolkowiak explains some of the various splinter groups and parties that existed in the ghetto and in Poland. He explains how they all actually existed before the war except for the communist organization, which was formed after the war by several smaller groups united by a common cause (fighting the Germans). He talks about some of the people involved in the different groups. Initially, the groups only prepared for passive resistance. He explains the later military organization/coordination between groups. When they began preparing for activity, they had no arms. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] He explains that in the beginning there weren't preparations to defend the ghetto because it was generally accepted that the Jews would take part in the city's defense with everyone else.
FILM ID 3375 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 03:00:00 to 03:25:10
Note: Transcripts for rolls #7 and 8 appear before those for roll #6.
Roll #7: Lanzmann and Bolkowiak discuss the reservations the Polish resistance army had with giving arms to the Jews in the ghetto; they viewed the Jews as incapable of helping/defending themselves. He tells of the first 'symbolic' pistol that was sent into the ghetto by the Kokliski Workers Party (?) in August 1942; he knows this as he was the one that received it. He discusses some of the people/groups involved in the arrangement and in later smuggling of arms into the ghetto. Some were also acquired on the black market. Bolkowiak briefly talks about the need for weapons in preparing for the April 1943 uprising (preparations of which began in January). In his view, part of the problem was the isolation between the various resistance groups. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks him about the view held by many that the Poles didn't help the Jews in the ghetto. He responds by discussing Poland and how it had been divided by the Germans, of the Jewish ghetto inside a ghetto. The situation was not comparable to that of France or Holland or Denmark.
03:10:59 Roll #8: Bolkowiak continues to talk about the situation in Poland and how it differed from that of other countries. He discusses how laws discriminated against Jews and Poles; how Poland was the only country that completely lacked its own government; and how Jews in Poland were not assimilated into the general populace like in other countries. He doesn't think the majority of the Polish population was anti-Semitic. He does say that there were a number of groups and people who were very anti-Semitic before the war, but then cites specific examples of these same people actually worked to save Jews. If anyone is culpable, he feels it is the western democracies. Picture cuts out 03:22:06 to end of roll. Bolkoviac continues by telling how difficult it was to save a Jew (due to their different language/appearance), about the great risk to those involved and their families. He cites how many Jews were saved by Poles and explains how typically 5-6 Poles would be involved for each Jew saved. To him these means a large part of the population were actually sympathetic to what was happening, but that large scale rescue simply was not possible. He himself, after being injured, was hidden by 14 different people. He disagrees with the argument that the majority of concentration camps were placed in Poland because of the anti-Semitic attitudes that existed there; he feels it was logically due to the fact that Poland is where the Jews were.

Roswell McClelland was the US Representative to the War Refugee Board (WRB) in Switzerland before serving as a US Ambassador to the Republic of Niger. In this interview with Claude Lanzmann, McClelland recounts his personal experiences, his motivations, and his work with the WRB. The interview was filmed at the home of James MacGregor Byrne and June Byrne in Chevy Chase, MD (friends of Mr. McClelland).
FILM ID 3432 -- Camera Rolls #63-68 -- 01:00:30 to 01:28:35
01:00:30 CR63 Claude Lanzmann and Roswell McClelland sit at a round table with notes and binders laid out between them. The wooden table is in a living room next to a fireplace, above which hangs a painting. Behind McClelland is a lamp and bookshelf. To his right, a pair of glass doors leading out to a patio. Lanzmann begins to ask McClelland a question when he is interrupted by a cameraman who then stops the film.
01:00:49 CR64 McClelland discusses traveling to Europe on a fellowship from Columbia in July 1940 and describes difficulties in getting a passport for his wife Marjorie. He explores his personal relationship with the American Society of Friends, a Quaker organization that some members of his family had membership in and that supported him in his travels. He then introduces the role and the tasks he was given at the American Joint Distribution Committee and his transfer from Rome to France and ultimately to Switzerland. He describes the condition of refugee camps in France. Camera zooms in slowly to focus on McClelland, who speaks to Lanzmann, seated out of frame.
01:11:11 CR65 McClelland discusses his concern with the deportation of foreign Jews from France in 1942. Lanzmann asks about McClelland's interaction with the Vichy government. McClelland describes meeting Pierre Laval in the office of a member of the Vichy government, Dr. Bernard Ménétrel, which he attended with a member of the Quaker organization. The meeting with Laval came by chance.
01:15:08 CR66 McClelland recalls the summer 1942 meeting with Pierre Laval and points out that Laval did the majority of the speaking, using the meeting as an opportunity to describe the foreign Jews as undesirable and anti-government, and supported their movement to an "ethnic reservation" in Poland. Laval dismissed McClelland's claims that the Jews were being exterminated.
01:17:31 CR67 McClelland restates Laval's dismissal of the extermination as fiction and outlines Laval's remarks on Americans and the Jewish population. Laval saw French Jews as France's responsibility more so than foreign Jews. McClelland describes Laval's discomfort and restates that Laval spoke for the majority of the meeting.
01:21:48 CR68 Lanzmann asks McClelland about heading the War Refugee Board in Switzerland. They discuss explanations for the lateness of the WRB's creation and deployment, problems with the State Department's bureaucracy, and the marginalization of the refugee question, particularly in government policy before 1944. Camera zooms in for a close up of McClelland.
FILM ID 3433 -- Camera Rolls #69-71 -- 01:00:32 to 01:27:18
01:00:32 CR69 McClelland smokes a cigarette and speaks to Lanzmann, who is out of frame. Lanzmann asks about the climate of the refugee efforts in Switzerland and the nature of the requests made to the WRB. McClelland outlines the condition of refugees.
01:05:12 CR70 The camera now sits to Lanzmann's right shoulder, capturing Lanzmann's profile and McClelland's front over the round table. The bookshelf is visible to McClelland's right, and the fireplace is behind him. Lanzmann asks McClelland to describe Isaac Sternbuch, representative of Vaad Hahazalah, and Saly Mayer, from the Swiss Community. McClelland describes Sternbuch and Mayer in terms of emotional and practical approaches to their work and his relationship both with them and his work at the WRB.
01:16:15 CR71 Lanzmann and McClelland discuss the use of money by the WRB in the effort to rescue Jews. McClelland distinguishes between practical requests for WRB support that have specific goals and hysterical requests for large funds. McClelland speaks about his difficulty communicating with Sternbuch, his impressions of Mayer, and the function of the Joint Distribution Committee.
FILM ID 3434 -- Camera Rolls #72-74 -- 01:00:29 to 01:33:44
01:00:29 CR72 McClelland describes the Swiss government's response to the WRB's activity and to the movement of Jewish and other refugees in Europe. He describes Heinrich Rothmund, Swiss head of the Eidgenossischen Fremdenpolizei. Lanzmann asks about how choices are made on where to give aid, and McClelland replies in reference to Quaker theology.
01:11:40 CR73 McClelland points out one occasion where he made a difficult choice on providing aid and the difficulty of choosing one individual over another. He outlines Saly Mayer's roles and responsibilities at the WRB and assesses the challenges Mayer faced. McClelland describes interactions with Kurt Becher.
01:22:49 CR74 McClelland recalls a specific meeting between Becher, Mayer, and himself, as well as his personal feelings and impression of Becher. He identifies difficulties within the US government of communicating with President Roosevelt and organizing action. Lanzmann asks McClelland about the question of bombing Auschwitz and why it was never done. McClelland starts his response but is interrupted by the end of the film.
FILM ID 3435 -- Camera Rolls #75-77 - 01:00:32 to 01:18:33
01:00:32 CR75 McClelland submitted several proposals for military action against German train lines and against Auschwitz. He describes the goals of his proposals and the governmental and bureaucratic process by which the proposals were denied. Lanzmann and McClelland discuss the effect this military action may have had on Jewish victims who they describe as feeling abandoned by the world. 01:07:12
01:07:14 CR76 Lanzmann asks McClelland to talk about why he chose to share his story. McClelland replies and describes his motivations which relate to his personal character, the important nature of the story, and his analysis of world events which includes a reference to Holocaust denial on the part of certain groups. He draws a distinction between developing a technical civilization and developing a moral civilization.
01:11:42 CR77 McClelland continues to describe his motivations for sharing his story and expands on the technological and moral divide. He observes a growing gap between technology's rapid transformation and morality's relative stagnation. McClelland discusses the importance of Lanzmann's project and introduces the themes of sin and atonement. Specific mention is given to the German company IG Farben.
FILM ID 3436 -- Camera Roll #78, coupe - 01:00:28 to 01:04:30
01:00:28 CR78 The camera focuses on Lanzmann and records his expressions and reactions during a portion of the interview. There is no sound for this roll.

RG-60.5025 Hidden camera interview with Gustav Laabs, who drove a gas van at Chelmno. Lanzmann is challenged by two neighbors after Laabs refuses to open the door to his apartment. Additional rolls contain industrial scenes and footage of a truck in transit. The truck was manufactured by the company Saurer, which also manufactured gas vans during the war. Multiple takes show Lanzmann reading a letter written by the engineer Dr. Becker in which Becker details the operation of a gas van.
FILM ID 3824 -- Laabs CR#4-7 Maison Chelmno
CR4 Germany filmed from the rear window of a moving vehicle. Cars drive. People stand on the sidewalk. A building at the side of the road says “MOBEL BODEN”. The car turns down another street.
CR5 CU of a window with curtains. The camera tilts down, pans to the right on a brick wall, and left on another balcony with windows. WS building with a blue car parked in front. Lanzmann and Corinna walk on the street. Cut to leader. A man walks outside. INT of the car, Adidas box on the left. Lanzmann stands outside a door. Sign marked “G. Laabs”. Cut to leader [orange]. INT Lanzmann stands outside Laabs’ apartment. No one answers. Cut to leader. A man smoking walks by. A man and woman exit the door. CU building windows. A man in a blue sweater walks towards the building. He stops, looks back, and shrugs. A young boy sits in an open window of the building, he quickly hides. Cut to leader. Man in the blue sweater briefly talks [silent]. He walks toward the building. Lanzmann and Corinna walk away, they are both smiling. Another shot of the building through the car window. A boy rests in the window, and a young man stands below. A woman calls to her children through the door. Cut to orange.
CR6 Lanzmann talks to a neighbor of Laabs, CUs. The man insists he does not know what Laabs did during the war, and that he does not really know him. Lanzmann continues to question him, and again the neighbor says he doesn’t know anything. Lanzmann tells him he killed 200,000 Jews and drove the gas van at Chelmno. He says he will call someone if they don’t stop filming. Lanzmann persists, asking what he thinks of these affairs in general. The man says he condemns them. They continue arguing. The conversation ends abruptly as Lanzmann says “goodbye”. Lanzmann and Corinna walk away.
FILM ID 3293 (also called Film ID 3825) -- Coupe Image II Laab[s] II Fin Chelmno II
Streets, houses, etc. shot from a moving car. The car pulls up outside of Laabs' house and Lanzmann (not on camera) reads from the indictment at the 1963 trial. CU on one window and balcony in the apartment building. Lanzmann and a women walk up to the building. Lanzmann stands outside a door labeled "G. Laabs." He rings the doorbell but there is no answer. In the next scene Lanzmann is challenged by two residents of the building, who tell him that he cannot film people who don't wish to be filmed. They say Mr. Laabs is a good neighbor. Lanzmann tells the two neighbors of Laabs that he drove a gas van during the war and murdered over 200,000 Jews. The woman turns her back to the camera and tells Lanzmann that if she sees herself on television she will get a lawyer. The man starts to tell Lanzmann that they are from the next generation. Lanzmann says that he has given them information about their neighbor. The woman tells Lanzmann to leave and they walk away.
FILM ID 3383 -- CR#1,2,3,9,10 -- 01:00:08 to 01:23:20
View from inside a truck as Lanzmann's crew drives along a highway and industrial areas in Germany (Switzerland?). CUs of trucks. Multiple takes of Lanzmann reading engineer Dr. Becker's letter concerning the operation of the gas vans. The May 16, 1942 letter was addressed to Obersturmbahnfuehrer Walter Rauff, Central Security of the Reich in Berlin, in Kiev, Ukraine. Lanzmann reads the document in French and in German while inside the moving vehicle. Ends with recorded candid conversation in French.
FILM ID 3384 -- CR#11,12,Breme 1 -- 02:00:08 to 02:29:05
Lanzmann's crew films trucks driving along a highway in Switzerland and at a truck rest stop. CUs, a blue "Saurer" truck. "Saurer" manufactured the trucks that were used as gas vans. They were made in Kiev, Simferopol, Minsk, Riga, and Kaunas from late 1941 to 1942.
FILM ID 3385 -- Saurer 1,2,4 --03:00:09 - 03:02:40
CUs, a blue "Saurer" truck.

Jacob Arnon was a Dutch Jew and leader of a Zionist student organization. Arnon's uncle was one of the chairmen of the Jewish Council [Judenrat] in Amsterdam, and though he admired his uncle greatly, he condemns the Council's actions, especially their choice of whom to deport. Arnon's uncle survived the war but the two never spoke again.
FILM ID 3265 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:18 to 01:29:12
[CLIP 1 BEGINS] Mr. Jacob (Ya'akov) Arnon, born Jaap van Amerongen, sits outside on a balcony and holds a pipe. There are some construction and other noises in the background. The image is soft when the camera pulls in close on Arnon's face. He says that his family received their certificates for Palestine the day before the Germans invaded Holland in May, 1940. After the initial reaction of the Jews to the invasion, which included many suicides, life returned to a kind of normal existence. Arnon points out that about 80 percent of the Dutch Jews were killed, the worst percentage in Western Europe. He says the Dutch Jews were very assimilated and felt that it couldn't happen to them.
Jews made up ten percent of Amsterdam's population and Arnon says that while there was antisemitism in Holland, it was very mild compared to other places. Arnon was a Zionist. He talks about the mood of the Jews as time passed under German occupation and describes the first razzia in Amsterdam. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Arnon says that the Jewish Council was formed in February, 1941. He describes his uncle, Asscher, the biggest manufacturer of diamonds in Amsterdam, and Rabbi Cohen. These two prominent Jews were natural choices to be chairmen of the Jewish Council. Arnon says that his uncle was very well-loved by people but that in the end he was a "good man for quiet times." Some men refused to be part of the Jewish Council, arguing that it was a mistake to be pushed out of the Dutch community, but most people thought the Council was a good idea. Arnon says that the Germans forced the Jewish Council to break a strike that was instigated by the general population in protest of the razzia against the Jews. In July, 1942 the deportations began. Arnon says that he does not think that the members of the Council knew about the gas chambers. However, the Germans told the Jews that they would be part of labor columns and it should have been clear that old people and children would not survive this treatment. According to Arnon, the worst thing was that the members of the Council found a way to send the less important Jews first and the more important Jews later in hopes that a second front would end the war [CLIP 1 ENDS].
FILM ID 3266 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 02:00:19 to 02:31:01
Lanzmann asks Arnon whether he remembers the relocation of the provincial Jews to Amsterdam. He says that this was the first case where the Jewish Council requested power from the Germans. Arnon says he did not have much to do with the Council at this time. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Arnon says that in reading the Jewish newspaper it was not always clear which decrees were coming from the Germans and which from the Council.
Arnon tells Lanzmann he must understand that there was a constant movement from bad to worse. Taking the case of the Jewish Council, they started out with the best intentions but ended up only trying to save their own families at the expense of other Jews. Nonetheless, Arnon says, he wants to make clear that the Germans and not the Jews perpetrated the Holocaust. Arnon's main criticism of the Council was that by keeping the Jews quiet and by lulling them into the feeling that things would work out they actually diminished their chances of survival. He says that if the Council had not gone along with the Germans and had instead been honest about the situation then more Jews would have gone into hiding and been saved [CLIP 2 ENDS].
Arnon says there were two meetings in which the Council discussed whether or not to comply with the demands of the Germans, who wanted them to prepare the deportation lists. The Council wanted to keep intact as much as possible the "valuable" part of the Jewish Community, meaning those in their own circle. He says that they made their most fatal decision in July of 1942, when they did not refuse to make choices among the remaining 140,000 Jews in Holland. In September 1943 the Germans convinced the Council to keep the last deportations a secret, in exchange for the lives of about 100 Jews who were family members of Council members. The Germans did not keep their promise and deported them all. Arnon says that in July and August, 1942 he had two meetings with his uncle that resulted in the two breaking all ties to each other. Arnon went to his uncle and told him that he should give a sign to the Jewish community that all was lost. He offered to help his uncle get out of Holland.
FILM ID 3267 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 03:00:18 to 03:33:51
[CLIP 3 BEGINS] Arnon and his uncle had a terrible argument. The argument took place in his uncle's diamond factory, which was still in operation. Arnon says he was influenced in his anger by the fact that he was a teacher and his students had been deported. He details his first and his second conversation with his uncle. Arnon told his uncle that he must tell the Jews somehow that all was lost so that some of them would go into hiding. During the second meeting Arnon said that if his uncle did not do something he would be a murderer of Jews. Arnon says that only a small percentage of the Jews reported to the station when ordered to do so for deportation [CLIP 3 ENDS].
[CLIP 4 BEGINS] He says that the vast majority of the Dutch were against the German occupation and against the persecution of the Jews, but they didn't do anything to resist. Lanzmann asks if it is true that members of the Jewish Council went door to door to convince the Jews to show up for deportation. Arnon says it is possible that some did do this, but in any case the Council advised the Jews to act "legally" without considering that the laws they were asking the Jews to follow would result in deportation. Being a member of the Council did not mean that one had absolute security -- there were members of the Council who were deported starting in 1942. Lanzmann points out that in the end the Jewish leaders lied about the living conditions in the East.
Arnon says that the Jewish leaders made a fuss out of the very few letters and cards that came from those deported. Lanzmann points out that the Jews of Holland were shipped to Auschwitz and Sobibor and killed immediately, but that some of them were forced to write letters home first. Lanzmann quotes from internal Council bulletins in which claims were made about the good conditions in Auschwitz and Theresienstadt. Arnon says that he is not defending the Council, but they did not know what was happening in Poland, did not know about the gas chambers. Lanzmann is skeptical and Arnon continues to defend the Council on this point [CLIP 4 ENDS].
FILM ID 3268 -- Camera Rolls #11,12 -- 04:00:18 to 04:18:15
Lanzmann describes the 60th birthday celebration of Rabbi Cohen, one of the chairmen of the Council. He says that Cohen was compared repeatedly to Moses and was presented with several gifts. Arnon says that this event was very badly received by the other Jews, who viewed it as a festival in the middle of the deportations. He says that the Council members felt deeply that they were doing the right thing but that they were out of touch with reality. Both Asscher and Cohen survived the war. Arnon saw his uncle once after the war but neither wanted to talk to the other.
[CLIP 5 BEGINS] Arnon discusses the sterilization of Jews in mixed marriages. These Jews were told they could either be sterilized or be deported. Arnon says that this only happened in Holland [CLIP 5 ENDS].
FILM ID 3269 -- Camera Roll #12A -- 05:00:18 to 05:04:57
Mute. CU on Lanzmann's face as he listens to Arnon (Arnon is not in the shot). Lanzmann smokes a cigarette. The camera pans out to reveal a notebook with writing and an ashtray on a table in front of Lanzmann.

Ada (Eda) Lichtman talks about her experiences in the Krakow ghetto, her father's murder, and her transport to Sobibor. She was chosen to do the SS laundry in Sobibor and remembers cleaning dolls and toys seized from a transport of children for the SS families. She talks about Franz Stangl and Gustav Wagner and relates a story about a Dutch transport where the prisoners were given postcards to write home before they were murdered. At Lanzmann's urging, Lichtman sews doll clothes during the interview; this is a duty she used to perform in Sobibor.
FILM ID 3270 -- Camera Rolls #1-4-- 01:00:18 to 01:34:00
Ada Lichtman and her husband sit on a couch. Two dolls sit on a table in front of them and Lichtman sews clothes on another one. The camera sometimes focuses on Lichtman's husband. After several seconds Lanzmann begins the interview. Lichtman was 13 years old when she moved to Krakow with her parents. When the Germans came the family was living in a small town near Krakow. The Germans immediately took the men for forced labor.
Lichtman witnessed her father being shot in a wood, along with many other men of the town. Lichtman and the other women managed to bring their men back to town for burial but they were harrassed by the Polish peasants. A few days later Lichtman went to Krakow to live in the Jewish quarter. She saw with her own eyes how the Germans harrassed and mistreated the Jews every day, including beard shaving. They brought mentally ill people from an asylum to the town and mistreated them. Lichtman married her fiance and moved to a town called Mielic (?). She and her new husband had planned to flee to the Soviet Union but found that it was impossible.
Lichtman's husband was killed when a large stone was dropped on his head (she said previously that she married after the German invasion, but here she says she got married in May, 1939). The Judenrat confiscated the Jews' valuables and gave them to the Germans in exchange for a promise that they would not have to leave Mielic but the next day they were rounded up and taken to another town. The Jews of this town were forced into the synagogue and burned alive (it's not clear whether she is talking about the Jews from Mielec or the Jews from the other town). She says that many of the Poles helped the Germans to persecute the Jews and that they were antisemetic even before the war.
FILM ID 3271 -- Camera Rolls #5-9 -- 02:00:18 to 02:34:26
Lichtman says she gathered a suitcase with photos together to take with her when they were resettled, but a German grabbed it and threw it away and her photos flew away in the wind. The Jews, perhaps 6,000 or 7,000 arrived in deep snow at an airplane factory in Berdighof (?) where they were beaten and given a little bread. Many were shot. Eventually they were marched further on, to the town of Dubienka, near the Bug river. They were settled in a ghetto there. There was very little to eat. In the spring, before Pesach, those remaining Jews were marched on to a railway station, where they boarded trains for Sobibor. She tells a somewhat confusing story of being transferred from train car to train car, and being deloused and made to dance for the Germans' amusement, while the trains travelled continually for several days. Lanzmann sounds skeptical, saying that Dubienka is not far from Sobibor, but Lichtman insists this is what happened.
Lanzmann asks Lichtman if the Poles ever tried to warn the Jews about Sobibor. Lichtman says no, only the Ukrainians told them that they would no longer need their possessions. When they arrived in Sobibor, Lichtman was selected by an SS man to do laundry, along with two other women. Lichtman says that these three were the only ones who remained of the transport of 7,000 people. The women were taken to a villa called the Jolly Flea, so-called by the Germans because it was dirty and the camp was flea-ridden. Every day Lichtman washed and ironed the laundry of the SS men.
Lichtman describes her arrival at Sobibor. After the chaos and the violence of her arrival at Sobibor, the camp gave the impression of a summer resort. For a couple of days she did not realize what happened at the camp, until the workers began to build a building to contain the possessions of the murdered Jews. One of the workers saw the corpses from the roof of the building and reported back. She says that the transports came three times per day.
FILM ID 3272 -- Camera Rolls #10-12 -- 03:00:19 to 03:34:31
The camera pans over to Lichtman's husband, who watches his wife as she speaks. Lichtman slept with the other women in a small room. Roll call occurred every morning at 5 am. They were the first laundry women but more were chosen from later transports, all of them beautiful young girls. Some of them worked in the casino and were taken by the Germans "for their personal use." Lichtman worked from 5 am until dark, with one hour for lunch. She describes the camp and how it was enlarged over time. The workers were not allowed to leave their work stations when the transports arrived but they could hear the noise of the arrivals. Lichtman describes a transport which contained many Austrian children. [Gustav] Wagner threw the children from the train into another wagon and Lichtman could hear their screams.
Lichtman says she thinks that the distance to the gas chambers was two or three kilometers but Lanzmann tells her it was only 400 meters. She says that she was near the gas chambers only once, when the Germans took them to see some workers who had escaped and were caught in the forest. The workers were shot in front of them as an example of what would happen if they tried to escape.
Lanzmann interviews Lichtman's husband. He speaks German with a heavy accent (or Yiddish?), which is translated into French. He met Ada in Sobibor, where he was working as a shoemaker. His entire family was killed at Sobibor. Fifty men were taken from his community and deported to Belzec, so he knew that people were killed there but not at Sobibor. He describes his arrival in the camp. He was chosen for work because he was a shoemaker.
The interview continues with Ada Lichtman. She sews a doll as she speaks. She works on the dolls throughout the rest of the interview and at several points she simply sews for several seconds without speaking. She says that the Germans took dolls from the arriving Jewish children, sometimes tearing them out of their hands and sometimes taking them after the children were already dead. They ordered Ada and her colleagues to clean the dolls and sew new clothes for them, so that they could bring them home to their own children when they went on leave. She says they also took other toys, and that Wagner took home with him a newborn baby's basket. There was a young girl, perhaps ten years old, who worked with Lichtman, and she played with the dolls. Lichtman says the girl was alive until the revolt but she doesn't know what happened to her after that. Lichtman and the other prisoners also made shirts for the SS men from the nightgowns of Jewish women. Lanzman points out that the dolls came from the transports of Western Jews. The female workers were careful to appear always busy because they were afraid they would be killed if there was not enough work for all of them.
FILM ID 3273 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 (including #13A, which is indicated in the transcript but not by a clapper board in the video).-- 04:00:17 to 04:31:45
Lichtman says that sometimes the women had hope that they would survive. She says they used to sing songs and at Lanzmann's urging she sings a couple of them but she can't remember the words. She sings a little bit from a song about the sun and says that during the last days of the camp the weather was so cold and the song cheered them up and gave them hope. Lichtman says that after a transport arrived and the Jews in it were killed the atmosphere in the camp was depressed. Franz Stangl used to come and talk to her husband, telling him that the Jews who arrived on transports were bound for work assignments in the Ukraine and that the Sobibor workers would get special certificates to go work in the Ukraine. Eventually the Germans started burning the corpses. The water at the camp was already spoiled (from the corpses in the mass graves?). The prisoners were not permitted to communicate with anyone in the transports, but because Lichtman had to go to the well to get water for the laundry, she was sometimes able to slip away and give the new arrivals water and food. Lanzmann asks Lichtman about Wagner. She says that everyone was afraid of him and that she would like to know today what he has to say for his crimes (Wagner was discovered in 1978 living in Brazil but the Brazilian government refused to extradite him. He committed suicide in 1980). She says that Wagner intervened once when she was being beaten by a Ukrainian and generally treated her better than he treated some of the others, perhaps because she made things for him and his family. Eichmann visited the camp icognito at least once, although Lichtman didn't realize until she was called as a witness before the Eichmann trial.
FILM ID 3274 -- Camera Roll #16 -- 05:00:18 to 05:11:20
Lanzmann compliments Lichtman on the work that she is doing. He says he thinks that is why Wagner kept her alive. Lanzmann asks Lichtman to talk about Ilana Safran (or Shafran), a Dutch Jew who worked with Lichtman, but she starts to tell the story and does not finish it. The Dutch transports were made up of sleeping cars and the Germans set up food for them when they arrived so they would not guess they were to be gassed. Some of the Dutch Jews were ordered to write postcards home to tell people how nice the camp was.
FILM ID 3275 -- Camera Rolls #8A,14A,15A,16A -- 06:00:17 to 06:05:40 Mute shots of Lichtman and her husband
FILM ID 3276 -- Camera Rolls #12A,12B -- 07:00:18 to 07:02:42 Mute shots of Lichtman sewing clothes on a doll.
FILM ID 3277 -- Camera Roll #16A -- 08:00:18 to 08:07:41 Mute shots of Lanzmann, Lichtman, and her husband.

Simon Srebnik (Shimon Srebrnik) was a boy of 13 when he was deported to Chelmno from the Lodz ghetto. He worked on a Sonderkommando burying those who had been murdered by gas. Srebnik was seriously wounded by Nazi gunfire during the liquidation of the camp, but managed to escape and find refuge with a Polish farmer. The Germans offered a large cash reward for turning Srebnik in, but the Poles, who already feared the approaching Russians more than the Germans, did not betray him. After the war he immediately immigrated to Israel. Srebnik's story is a focal point in the film "Shoah." The interview takes place first in Chelmno, Poland (September 1978) and later in Israel (Fall 1979). Corinna Coulmas interprets the sections in German; Barbra Janicka interprets the sections in Polish; and an English to Hebrew intepreter in Israel.
FILM ID 3278 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:12 to 01:22:33
The whole reel consists of shots of a party in a yard in Israel (presumably Srebnik's yard). Several children play while adults sit on the grass. Srebnik pushes two children on a swing. Srebnik's wife is also present. People talk and laugh and relax. Note: CR #1-7 are filmed by Lubtchansky and chronologically later (in Fall 1979) than the rolls shot in Poland but have earlier camera roll numbers.
FILM ID 3279 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 02:00:20 to 02:27:19
Srebnik sits with wife indoors. Lanzmann speaks English, which is translated into Hebrew. Later Srebnik speaks German directly to Lanzmann. Note: CR #1-7 are filmed by Lubtchansky and chronologically later (in Fall 1979) than the rolls shot in Poland but have earlier camera roll numbers.
FILM ID 3280 -- Camera Rolls #45-48A -- 03:00:19 to 03:12:22
Scenes shot from the back seat of Srebnik riding in the passenger seat of a car, in Poland. Srebnik speaks Hebrew, which interpreter Corinna Coulmas translates into French. 03:07:34 When they get out of the car Srebnik is still speaking Hebrew. 03:11:19 Srebnik stands by a church and there is no audio.
FILM ID 3281 -- Camera Rolls #49-50 -- 04:00:20 to 04:18:26
Srebnik, Corinna and Lanzmann are on the site of the Chelmno camp, which appears to be a coal yard now. Corinna translates Srebnik's Hebrew into French. Srebnik points out various features of the site. 04:07:17 clapperboard says "Glasberg." CR #50 Lanzmann and Srebnik speak German. Srebnik tells the story of one SS man who spoke German with a Bavarian accent. This man somehow got the idea that Srebnik could understand him better than the others. 04:08:38 Lanzmann tells Srebnik that they will speak German and says, "Two Jews in Chelmno speaking German, that makes sense." Srebnik explains how workers were shot and replaced by new workers from the transports that arrived in the camp. He describes how prisoners were executed two days before the camp was liberated by the Soviets in January 1945. He himself was shot in the back of the neck but the bullet exited through his mouth. He recounts how he got up and ran into the woods. The SS realized that one body was missing but they didn't find him hiding behind a tree.
FILM ID 3282 -- Camera Rolls #51-55 -- 05:00:20 to 05:35:09
The clapper board reads "Glasberg." Srebnik speaks Polish with a local man who remembers the events of the war years. A group of Poles stands behind them and watches as they compare memories of the area before the war. Srebnik asks if there are any members of the Król family still around, and the man informs him that there is only one surviving family member. He also asks about the Miszczak (or Mistrzak) family, which he used to visit often. They discuss how nice the place used to look before the war, and Srebnik describes the park, the raspberries that grew around the buildings, and similar. 05:01:31 The local man asks questions about what exactly was going on with the cars arriving at the building, as from his vantage point he could never see anyone/anything getting in or out. They discussed that he remembers this from 1943 and 1944, but Srebnik admits he only arrived to the camp in '44. The local man asks if the people were electrocuted in the cars and Srebnik clarifies that the cars came over already loaded with people from the palace, and then the hoses were changed, and they drove off, alive, to the burial place in the forest, about four kilometers away, by which time all the people would be dead. He also describes the digging of ditches and how the bodies would be placed into them. 05:05:23 A much younger local man invites Srebnik and Lanzmann into the large building, which had been Srebnik's living quarters. 05:06:04 No picture inside the building until CR #52 begins. Audio continues during this time, some Polish and French, but switches to German at 05:06:22 as Lanzmann speaks to Srebnik in German. Srebnik describes the barrack where he slept (?). 05:07:04 On CR #52 and 53 Srebnik and Lanzmann speak in German while standing in the location of the barracks (now a construction site). Srebnik describes how, at 13 years of age, he stood out in this courtyard in January wearing only underwear and chains. He points out where the gas vans were repaired in the yard. The Germans called him "Spinnefix" because he was so fast and he earned privileges by running. Walter Burmeister, one of the gas van drivers, saved his life when Bothmann ordered that he be executed. Burmeister told Srebnik that after the war he would adopt him. Lanzmann asks Srebnik how he explains this act of human kindness on Burmeister's part, given that he was also a member of the SS and a war criminal. Lanzmann says that he traveled to Flensburg to find Burmeister but he had been dead for two months by the time he found him. He describes the daily executions and the sadistic games that the SS played with the prisoners. He points out a barracks where he removed the gold from prisoners' teeth. Most people only remained in Chelmno for up to 5 days (?) but Srebnik remained for 6 months. 05:20:00 On CR #54 Barbara Janicka translates Polish to French. (For Lanzmann's reflections on working with Barbara and the accuracy of her translations, see pgs. 481 - 482 of the English translation of his memoir The Patagonian Hare.) They have been joined by an older local man who clearly remembers the occupation and events of that time. Srebnik stands with a group of Poles, including two young boys, still on the grounds of the former camp. 05:23:49 CR #55 Lanzmann and Srebnik speak German. Srebnik describes how Bothmann took him hunting and he fetched the dead game "like a dog." 05:25:15 Lanzmann begins conversing again with the Poles and Srebnik in Polish. Among other things, they discuss the Miszczak family who had aided Srebnik in the forests, and the family's whereabouts.
FILM ID 3283 -- Camera Rolls #56-59 -- 06:00:20 to 06:28:43
Lanzmann asks (translated) questions of the same Polish men as in CR #55. Now there are six young boys, wearing some kind of scout uniforms. CR #60 Mute, shots of the boys and of some of the Poles listening to the conversation. Note: Title on screen at beginning of tape says CR #57-60, this tape contains CR #56-59.
FILM ID 3284 -- Camera Rolls #60-63 -- 07:00:29 to 07:37:12
Lanzmann sits in the church in Chelmno with Srebnik and the priest. Lanzmann speaks French and Srebnik and the priest speak Polish.
FILM ID 3285 -- Camera Rolls #70-82 -- 08:00:18 to 08:29:59
This reel is made up almost entirely of different takes of Srebnik on the boat on the river, sometimes singing and sometimes simply silent shots.
FILM ID 3286 -- Camera Rolls #83-85 -- 09:00:19 to 09:19:00
Barbara translates from French to Polish and back. Srebnik stands with three Poles, Lanzmann, and Barbara by the river.
FILM ID 3287 -- Camera Rolls #86, 102-105 -- 10:00:18 to 10:21:28
All in German. Lanzmann and Srebnik walk down a dirt road toward the camera. On the next reel, Srebnik stands with the forest in the background. He says that in 1944 corpses from Chelmno were burned in large ovens at this site. From every transport 10 men were chosen to write letters back to Lodz, telling that there was work and food at the camp. This encouraged the relatives to come as well. Srebnik describes how the corpses were burned using wood as fuel after the people were killed in gas vans. Srebnik stands and contemplates the site. He says that he was told by a guard that there were mass graves here in 1942 and they built the ovens in early 1944. In 1944, after the corpses were burned, they took the large bones, pulverized them, and threw the ash in the river. Srebnik says that the spot was as quiet then as it is now. There was no screaming, people simply got on with the work of burning the bodies. He points out the route the gas vans took to the ovens. He describes again how the bodies were burned and the larger bones were pulverized. At Lanzmann's urging, he describes the bone crushing machine in more detail. The workers cleaned out the ovens before receiving the transports, which came every two days. At Lanzmann's request, Srebnik describes in detail what happened when a gas van full of corpses arrived. Srebnik was part of the crew that built the ovens. They did not know what they were for until the first gas van full of corpses arrived. He was not so shocked by this because he had already seen so much. Lanzmann finds it hard to believe this.
FILM ID 3288 -- Camera Rolls #106-109 -- 01:00:18 to 01:26:09
All in German. Srebnik stands in the field where the crematoriums were in 1944. He continues to explain why he was not so shocked when he discovered what the ovens were to be used for. He had already seen a lot of death (by starvation) in the Lodz ghetto. People dropped dead in the streets and were picked up and taken away.
FILM ID 3289 -- Camera Rolls #111-112, 116 -- 12:00:23 to 12:15:07
Srebnik stands in front of the church in Chelmno, surrounded by Polish villagers. They speak to Srebnik in Polish and to Lanzmann through Barbara Janicka (the interpreter). Singing can be heard from the church in the background. Several of the men were also interviewed with Srebnik at the site of the camp (see Film ID 3282-3284 for CR #51-60). The priest and a crowd of churchgoers leave the church to the ringing of church bells. More shots of Srebnik surrounded by Poles.
FILM ID 3290 -- Coupe Son 1 + Fin Chelmno II Montage -- 13:00:19 to 13:05:16
Srebnik says that he was at the trial of the SS men of Chelmno and they were all surprised and happy to discover that "Spinnefix" had survived. The judge asked the defendants, including Laabs and Burmeister, whether they recognized the witness Srebnik and they all said no. Another shot of Srebnik riding a boat down the river, singing.
FILM ID 3291 -- Camera Roll #112A -- 15:00:18 to 15:01:29
Mute CUs of people in front of the church in Chelmno.
FILM ID 3292 -- Coupes -- 16:00:20 to 16:06:44
Mute CUs of Srebnik and his wife in their house in Israel.

Peter Bergson and Samuel Merlin were activists in the United States during the war. They talk about conflicts with other Jewish groups, especially with Rabbi Stephen Wise. Bergson and his group organized the the We Will Never Die pageant and made other bold publicity moves aimed at influencing American policy in favor of helping the Jews of Europe.
FILM ID 3254 -- Camera Rolls #48-50-- 01:00:18 to 01:33:18
Roll 48
01:00:18 Claude Lanzmann, Peter Bergson and Samuel Merlin sit inside a small meeting room around a table in New York City. Lanzmann, off-camera, asks the men about how the general public in America reacted to news about the extermination of the Jews in Europe. Bergson says there is no such thing as "starting to be known," but that the news exploded into the public: all of a sudden The Washington Post printed an article stating that two million Jews had been exterminated. Bergson details his horror to learn this and his attempts to appeal to Rabbi Stephen Wise and to the Assistant Secretary of State to do something to stop these atrocities. However "we discovered to our horror that life went on without much change." Lanzmann probes Bergson about why nothing was done and Bergson answers that the Jews were petrified and the government did not want to be involved in a "Jewish war." Bergson and his friends formed the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe, which drew negative attention and even threatened Bergson's citizenship.
Roll 49
01:10:55 Bergson asserts that no one can accuse others of not acting when the Jews need to re-examine themselves and wonder why they and the Jewish leaders were just as inactive. Lanzmann asks about this inaction and Merlin cuts in to describe the fear the Jews of America had at that time. They were highly concerned with maintaining their own welfare and their own status, and "for the first time as people who are not being persecuted because of race, that they were being treated with dignity, with equality." There was a belief that every generation dealt with persecution, but because God protected them for four thousand years that Jews would always prevail. Though books claimed there were many organizations formed to help the Jews of Europe, Merlin claims they were just fronts for the Zionists, and only their Emergency Committee, backed by religious people, was trying to save the Jews. Merlin cuts in and begins to talk about Jewish identity and how American Jews did not identify with European Jews. They continued to push the government and finally were able to get them to form the War Refugee Board, which was a win and a loss because its purpose was to help victims of the war, but the Board avoided any suggestion that they were saving Jews or that this was a Jewish issue. Bergson stresses the fact that Hitler was in power for eight years before anyone became aware of what was happening.
Roll 50
01:22:08 Lanzmann expresses surprise at Bergson's sharp criticism of Jewish leaders, and asks about what the average Jew in this country felt. Bergson talks about the discipline of the Jewish people and how they often follow their leaders. Bergson had hope for the common Jew when his committee organized a pageant at Madison Square Garden in 1943 and filled the arena twice in the same night, selling over forty thousand tickets. Bergson asserts that had Rabbi Wise called for a march on Washington a half million Jews would have taken part. Merlin cuts in to say that these people were not wicked in any way and that the issue goes much deeper than claiming that these particular Jews were in any way accomplices in the murder of millions. Lanzmann asks what they imagined when they heard about the destruction of the Jews. Bergson talks about the Jews that were saved and when he ceased being a Zionist. He says it was a political issue that was not answered properly. Resolutions introduced to help the people of Europe were stalled because Jewish leaders, including Rabbi Wise, said "it's not enough, because the big issue is opening the gates of Palestine."
FILM ID 3255 -- Camera Rolls #51-53 -- 02:00:19 to 02:33:57
Roll 51
02:00:19 Lanzmann, Bergson and Merlin sit around a table in a small meeting room in New York City. Bergson discusses how the remaining Jews of Europe could have been saved. There were proposals presented to the government that included bombing the crematoria at Auschwitz and threatening to use poison gas on the Germans if they continued to use it on the Jews. The Allies had previously used this threat on the Germans about using poison gas on the Poles, Greeks, etc. Though Roosevelt sent warnings to Germany regarding their actions, there was never specific mention of the Jews, about which Bergson says, "they joined the dehumanization of the Jews, because the Jews are not 'worthy' of retaliation." When Bergson suggested threatening the Germans with retaliation as Chairman of the Hebrew Committee of National Liberation, people were appalled. Other proposals presented by the Hebrew Committee of National Liberation included the establishment of a 25 square mile refuge in Turkey for people who could manage to get there. Bergson thinks the Jews were not saved because the Zionists became too caught up in their ideology. There was not enough focus on the Jews being exterminated and too much on what was going to be done with them as refugees. It should have been about the "physical salvation of human beings." Because of the lack of action to save the Jews, it became about just winning the general war. Had the Jews pushed the American people to support their cause, efforts to save the European Jews would have been mobilized.
Roll 52
02:11:35 Bergson describes the difficulties in rallying the Jews for this cause. It was easier to recruit prominent non-Jews than it was to rally prominent Jews. His committee was unable to be as effective as they wanted to be because they were seen as a radical group when in fact they were not. American newspaperman William Allen White told Bergson that they were not radical enough and that every window of any British office should be broken. The War Refugee Board symbolized a win and a loss; it was better than nothing and in the end it did manage to save several hundred thousand Jews. However, had there been more pressure many more Jews would have survived. Merlin says that in the mid 1930s there was a feeling of doom for the Jews in Eastern Europe, but Zionists believed an evacuation would mean the forfeiture of the rights of Jews in the evacuated areas.
Roll 53
02:22:45 Merlin claims the Zionist leadership gave the impression that their aim was to liberate and rescue the Jewish masses when in fact they wished to transform a small minority of young people through education so they would be prepared to go to Palestine and "live a life which is not plagued and degraded by the life of the Jews in Europe." Merlin describes their attempts to save the Jews as early as 1935 through illegal immigration. The Zionists disagreed with this because it was not selective and because it threatened the monopoly they received from the British government. Merlin discusses the lack of proper coverage of Jewish news in newspapers, saying that any story relating to Hitler or Jewish suffering was either printed in the Obituary page or the Religious page, especially in The New York Times. It did not make any sense that such important news was not printed on the front page. Merlin realized that any type of Jewish organization was located around 14th Street because Jews were afraid to bring the Jewish problem out in the open.
FILM ID 3256 -- Camera Rolls #54-56 -- 03:00:07 to 03:30:20
Roll 54
03:00:12 CU of Merlin in his NY office as he describes the major differences between his organization and the Zionists. One major difference was that the Zionists did not identify with the Jews of Europe. One of the greatest Zionist leaders, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, stated before the war that "'in our generation only a minority, the young ones, should be thought of to be saved. The old ones will pass, they will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust... only a remnant shall survive. We have to accept it.'" Merlin goes on to state that "they despised the Jewish masses, and their aim was not to rescue their lives, their aim was to create a transformation of Jews in a new social and ethical framework." CU on Bergson as he disagrees with Merlin's wording on the subject and says that human emotions are too complex to make this kind of summation. Bergson then reads from documents to try and prove his point. He reads a statement from the chairmen of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency which reads, "I am afraid we have to take it for granted that the extermination of the Jews of Europe will be completed and only remnants will remain." Merlin then states that the Zionists wanted to do something, but "their emotional identification was very weak." Bergson contends that these people should be pitied. Lanzmann and Merlin disagree with this statement.
Roll 55
03:11:23 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bergson explains what he did during the war. The task was to save as many Jews as possible and because they did not control the armies they had to get the American government to act. In order to get government action they had to reach out to as many Americans as they could, especially influential figures who could help to mobilize the cause. Bergson gets out of his seat and walks to a wall entirely covered with the newspaper advertisements they printed. There were over ninety ads placed in various newspapers across the country. One reads "Action, Not Pity!" and another details a plan for a 25 square mile camp in Turkey where Jews could go for safety. Bergson tells of a specific ad that was a ballad written by Ben Hecht about the Jews of Europe being murdered. The word Christmas was used in the ad, which caused Jewish leaders to call an emergency meeting to ask them to not run the ad for fear of antisemitism. While in this emergency meeting Bergson agreed to pull the ad if the Jewish leaders would agree to sit down and talk about an actual plan of action to help the Jews, and for a moment Bergson thought he had finally gotten through, but then they would not return his phone calls so he ran the controversial ballad. Bergson sits back in his chair and talks about the march of the rabbis on Washington [CLIP 1 ENDS].
Roll 56
03:22:36 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Bergson describes the arrival of five hundred rabbis for the march in Washington and how effective it was. They walked from Union Station to the Capitol. Members of the Senate, led by Vice President Henry Wallace, suspended their session to come out and meet the rabbis. Merlin then reads the prayer that the rabbis read that morning. Bergson describes how they then walked the distance to the White House. CU on Bergson as he discusses how dangerous fear can be. "When fear is not justified, it becomes anxiety, and this is even more deadly." [CLIP 2 ENDS] The camera slowly pans out so both men can be seen sitting at the table in silence. CU of Merlin and then of Bergson.
FILM ID 3257 -- Camera Rolls #50A -- 04:00:11 to 04:05:09
Roll 50A
04:00:11 CU of Merlin touching his face, deep in thought. Camera pans out and back in as Merlin puts his glasses on. Merlin takes off his glasses as he speaks to someone off camera. CU of Bergson in front of a bookshelf in an office in NY. Camera pans out and back in as Bergson looks straight into the camera. CU of Bergson talking to someone off camera. Camera pans out so both men can be seen. Camera pans in on Merlin's face. Camera goes back and forth between Merlin and Bergson. 04:06:07
FILM ID 3258 -- Camera Rolls #56A,57 -- 05:00:16 to 05:06:41
Roll 56A
05:00:17 CUs of advertisements from the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe: "ACTION-NOT PITY Can Save Millions Now!" which features a drawing of a yelling soldier standing over toppled Jews; "FOR SALE to Humanity 70,000 Jews"; "Ballad of the Doomed Jews of Europe"; "32 United Nations- and One Forgotten People"; "Once Again Too Little... But Not Yet Too Late"; "The People Have Spoken But Their Officials Are Still Mute!"; "25 Square Miles or 2,000,000 Lives". 05:03:39
Roll 57
05:03:41 CUs of specific parts of advertisements from the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe. CU of small paragraphs about the 70,000 Romanian Jews able to leave for fifty dollars apiece. CU of a headline about the failings of the Bermuda Conference. CU of a cartoon showing politicians interested in news about everything but the Jews. CU of two rabbis. CU of pictures of the march of the rabbis in Washington. 05:06:42

John Pehle discusses the War Refugee Board, U.S. policy and inaction, the Riegner cable of March 1943, Rabbi Wise and the rally at Madison Square Garden, antisemitism, the bombing of Auschwitz, the International Red Cross, and the Vatican.
FILM ID 3259 -- Camera Rolls #38-42-- 01:00:18 to 01:07:31
Roll 38
01:00:19 John Pehle exits his house, which is located in a wooded area, and walks around his yard. The camera pans out to reveal more of the wooded surroundings. Pehle walks around the woods and collects small branches. It is fall or early winter and dead leaves cover the ground. 01:03:13
Roll 39
01:03:23 Pehle rakes leaves in the woods. 01:03:54
Roll 40
01:03:55 Pehle walks in the woods and occasionally stops to pick a branch off the ground. He heads towards his house and goes inside. 01:06:02
Roll 41
01:06:03 Pehle walks from the woods to his yard and into his house. 01:07:05
Roll 42
01:07:06 CU of Pehle in the woods pulling branches from a bush and looking up to the sky.
FILM ID 3260 -- Camera Rolls #43-44 -- 02:00:18 to 02:16:53
Roll 43
02:00:19 CU of John Pehle sits in a wicker chair in his house. Claude Lanzmann sits across from Pehle in front of glass doors that reveal the woods that surround them. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Pehle discusses the drastic change in US policy regarding refugee assistance once the WRB was founded. Lanzmann asks him to explain the policies up until the founding of the WRB. Pehle talks about how difficult it was to acquire visas during this time because there was a fear of the burden and dependency that comes with aiding refugees. Lanzmann pushes for an explanation for why so few Jews were granted visas during the war and Pehle is unable to give a reason beyond the fact that there were obstacles involved. Lanzmann asks Pehle to read a statement Congressman Dickstein gave to the House of Representatives in 1943 in which he states that there has been no effort by the government to prevent people from being killed in Europe [CLIP 1 ENDS]. 02:11:25
Roll 44
02:11:28 Pehle reads the rest of Congressman Dickstein's statement and moves on to a statement by Congressman Celler, who criticizes the lack of action, calling it cold-blooded. Pehle describes the obstacles they faced including the FBI's fear that Nazis would try to infiltrate and become recruiters for their cause in America. Lanzmann and Pehle discuss how few people were allowed into the country during the war. 02:16:51
FILM ID 3261 -- Camera Rolls #45-48 -- 03:00:18 to 03:28:18
Roll 45
03:00:19 Lanzmann and Pehle sit across from each other in Pehle's home. Pehle talks about how the pressure to act intensified in December of 1943. Lanzmann wonders why the word "Jewish" was never mentioned when it was specifically Jews who were targeted. Pehle describes a situation that involved sending funds to save a large number of Romanian Jews in March of 1943, but first a license from the Department of Treasury had to be acquired, which did not happen until July. Then the State Department and the British government had certain objections to the license so the funds were delayed until December when a cable sent to the US revealed the urgent need for them. 03:10:07
Roll 46
03:10:08 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Pehle goes through the exact timeline of the nine months it took to provide funds in order to save a large number of Jews from Romania and France. Information acquired through a cable about the extermination of the Jews caused the license to be rushed in December, but the situation in Europe had turned worse and it was too late to save the Romanian Jews. Pehle learned that this cable was withheld from Mr. Morgenthau and the rest of the Department of Treasury by the State Department. 03:17:07
**See FILM ID 3264 for Roll 47**
Roll 48
03:17:08 Lanzmann and Pehle now sit in the living room of Pehle's home. Pehle explains why the State Department was on the defensive in regards to the funds. He reads a memorandum sent by the general coucil of the Treasury, Randolph Paul, which outlines the circumstances surrounding the cable regarding the extermination of the Jews. The cable was originally sent for the Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles and Rabbi Stephen Wise and it detailed the mass executions and the desperate living situations of the Jews in Europe. The State Department then circulated a cable which advised that such messages about the Jews in Europe should not be made public. When asked why the State Department did not want people knowing about this Pehle speculates that they did not want the added pressure to act that would be caused by this information going public and that perhaps they feared hysteria. Pehle participated in a meeting with the President, Secretary Morgenthau and Mr. Dubois in order to inform Roosevelt of the real situation in Europe and the State Department's attempts to conceal information [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Pehle reads a memorandum from Secretary Morgenthau to the President that details the State Department's failures in taking action. 03:28:14
FILM ID 3262 -- Camera Rolls #49-51 -- 04:00:22 to 04:30:34
Roll 49
04:00:20 Pehle and Lanzmann sit in Pehle's living room. Without the actions of the Treasury Department the WRB would not have been founded when it was; it would have been formed even later in the war. Morgenthau used his close relationship with the President to convince him of the necessity of founding the WRB. The policy of the WRB was to "take all measures within its powers to rescue the victims of enemy oppression who are in imminent danger of death, and otherwise to offer these victims all possible relief and assistance." They recognized the danger the Jews were in, but other refugees were not excluded, hence the name of the WRB. The first thing the WRB did was send representatives abroad to aid the private organizations already located in various areas. These representatives were given diplomatic status. The WRB proposed a warning be given to the Germans to let them know that any involvement in the annihilation of the Jews would be punished once the war was over. 04:11:28
Roll 50
04:11:32 Pehle speaks of the confrontation the WRB experienced with the British, who did not approve of the proposal to issue a warning to the Germans. A memorandum from the British expresses their fears of embarrassment if the Germans were to agree to stop the extermination of Jews and release them to other countries as "alien immigrants." Since the WRB drastically changed American policy, immigration has become much more liberal, allowing Cubans, Vietnamese and Hungarians to come into the country to flee from persecution and hardship. One of the greatest accomplishments of the WRB was their ability to transfer funds to private agencies that were already in action, most notably the Joint Distribution Committee. Moses Levitt, the head of the JDC, came to Pehle immediately to thank him for supporting them; he felt for the first time that someone in the government was on their side. The JDC was involved in creating false Latin American passports for Jews and at one point the Germans rounded up all those with fake passports and put them in a camp in Vittel, France. Upon hearing this the WRB urged the Latin American embassies not to deny the validity of the passports while the war was going on and this intervention resulted in those people being saved from the extermination camps. 04:22:49
Roll 51
04:22:52 Lanzmann wonders what it meant to be informed while in America during the war. Pehle discusses his preparation for the interview and even though he knew what was happening at the time, to go over the material again was still very shocking and he thinks that people try to forget it almost out of disbelief that something so horrible could occur. At one point the WRB was able to attain eyewitness accounts from two people [Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler] who had escaped from Auschwitz which was valuable because at the time many people were trying to deny the truths of the war. The WRB released a press release about the Vrba-Wetlzer report. A journalist named Elmer Davis from the Government's information office called Pehle to ask him to withdraw the article because his staff feared no one would believe it and that further releases from the government would then be discounted as well. Pehle realized that people will reject believing such awful things. Lanzmann asks about the role of antisemitism and Pehle answers that he thinks many people, both non-Jews and Jews, are antisemitic without even realizing it. Pehle then tells a story of he and his friends, two of whom were Jewish, trying to find a country club at which to play golf. Most of the clubs did not accept Jewish members, so they decided to join a Jewish golf club. Years later the club had to decide whether or not they were going to accept black members and in the end could not in good consience discriminate against blacks because they themselves had been discriminated against. 04:30:35
FILM ID 3263 -- Camera Rolls #53-55 -- 05:00:18 to 05:34:01
Roll 53
05:00:18 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Lanzmann and Pehle sit on a couch next to each other in Pehle's home. Lanzmann speaks about the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz. In 1944 there were requests from various Jewish organizations through different underground channels for the bombing of the railroad tracks leading to Auschwitz, of the bridges, and of the crematorium at Auschwitz. There was extensive knowledge of the locations and operations and this intelligence was sent to Morgenthau and to Pehle. CU of Pehle as he discusses the skepticism the WRB had of this plan. Militarily it would have been very difficult and with the tracks could easily be rebuilt. Pehle says had just been to McGill University to speak on the the Holocaust and realized that a lot of people feel that much more could have been done and believe that the bombing should have taken place. Pehle says that at the time the WRB felt that resources should be spent on bombing German cities. The Auschwitz factories were eventually bombed but they hesitated at bombing the crematoriums for fear of harming even more Jews. 05:11:43
Roll 54
05:11:45 Pehle met with Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy to discuss the option of bombing the railroad tracks and crematoria. McCloy was completely focused on the war and was completely against the bombing. Pehle's own position changed over the course of time; he was very hesitant but the later into the war it got the more he thought this was something that should have been done. By the time they felt it was an emergency and sent a strong letter recommending the bombing it was already November,1944 and the gassing in Auschwitz was almost finished. Pehle reads excerpts from the letter he wrote to McCloy. The letter was sent on November 8th and on November 18th they received a negative reply from McCloy [CLIP 3 ENDS]. The WRB was told that Auschwitz was out of bombing range and would require too much effort; they later found out that the camp was in the range of the Fifteenth Air Force. 05:23:03
Roll 55
05:23:05 Pehle says that, in retrospect, the Allies' stance on dealing with the Germans may not have been the best strategy to save lives. They would only accept unconditional surrender and would make no deals, which he realizes now might have prolonged the war and caused the loss of many lives. They hesitated when it came to making any deals with the Germans for the trading of goods for Jewish lives because they did not want the Soviets to feel as though they were being undermined. It was also a deal they thought doomed to fail because they did not trust the Germans. The International Red Cross never offered the WRB any sort of great assistance. Pehle does not speculate as to why this was the case. 05:34:13
FILM ID 3264 -- Camera Rolls #56-59,47,52,60 -- 06:00:18 to 06:25:18
Roll 56
06:00:19 Pehle sits on a couch in his home. Lanzmann asks Pehle if they tried to involve the Vatican and the Pope in matters of the war. Pehle recalls that they had meetings with the Apostolic Delegate to try and get the Pope to issue warnings but were unsuccessful. The two men discuss what the plan was for the Jews they were able to save. Pehle states that the WRB "took the attitude that we would worry about that when and if we could get people out, but our concentration was going to be on getting people out." The WRB spoke with Latin American countries about bringing refuges there as well, but the US was unwilling to take refugees, which was a weakness of the WRB. The people they were able to bring into the US, a few hundred brought to an abandoned army camp in New York [Fort Ontario, in Oswego, NY], caused some controversy. Labor unions were upset at the thought of immigrants taking up jobs and other people were upset at the thought of the immigration laws being weakened The group of refugees brought to New York were allowed to become residents. 06:06:14
Roll 58
06:06:16 Lanzmann asks Pehle to explain how the US could house 150,000 German prisoners of war shipped in from Britain, but could not decide if they would accept Jewish refugees. Pehle defends this by pointing out that they took the German prisoners of war because Britain was having a difficult time. They then go on to speak about the difficulty the WRB had with dealing with various Jewish organizations. CU on Pehle as he tells Lanzmann that the WRB preferred to work with the JDC because they were professionals and were not interested in Zionism as much as they were interested in rescuing people. The camera moves from Pehle to Lanzmann who is sitting next to him on the couch and looking down at his notes. Lanzmann then looks at Pehle and the camera moves back to Pehle. 06:11:22
Roll 59
06:11:28 Lanzmann asks about Pehle's experiences with the very religious Jewish leaders. Pehle recounts his dealings with Rabbi Kalmanowitz, head of the religious rescue organization Vaad Hatzalah. The rabbi often came to Pehle's office unannounced and would pull his beard and cry. He would also wait in Morgenthau's office and was insistent about saving a particular group of orthodox rabbis who escaped from Poland, crossed Russia and found refuge in Shanghai. He wanted them brought to the US to perpetuate Jewish orthodoxy and he did not understand when they told him there were more pressing matters at the time. Often the WRB was approached about sending money to Switzerland to save specific rabbis and their families, but they did not think it was appropriate to save specific individuals and wanted to save people in a more general sense. Other suggestions involved approaching the Soviet government to ask them to dispatch paratroopers to seize the crematoria buildings and encouraging underground Polish forces to attack camps and destroy their buildings. These suggestions were unrealistic because both nations were too busy defending their own lands. 06:17:21
Roll 47
06:17:30 CU of Lanzmann in Pehle's house. He reaches for something off-camera and listens and reacts to Pehle. 06:18:42
Roll 52
06:18:40 CU of Lanzmann in Pehle's house. He talks to someone off-camera and readjusts himself in his seat. He looks down at something off-camera and lights a cigarette. Smoke wafts in front of his face as he looks down. He smiles at something said to him and places his hand on his head. 06:20:31
Roll 60
06:20:39 CU of a State Department Memorandum of Conversation between Mr. Sohoen of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis and Mr. William I. Riegelman of the Eastern Hemisphere Division. CU of a WRB document regarding Rabbi Kalmanowitz. CU of a letter to Pehle from John J. McCloy at the War Department dated 4 July 1944. The letter refers to the cable from Bern, Switzerland. CU of a memorandum for the files, dated 24 June 1944 and written by Pehle. CU of a letter to McCloy about the extermination of the Jews in Europe. CU of a letter to Pehle from the Agudas Israel World Organization dated 18 June 1944 that discusses rescue strategies. CU of a letter to Henry Morgenthau, also from the Agudas Israel World Organization, dated 18 June 1944. 06:25:18

Interview with local Polish people in and around Chelmno.
FILM ID 3767 -- White 72 CH 48-49 Lettre May. CL lit
Lanzmann reads a letter from Mr. May regarding operations at Chelmno.
FILM ID 4602 -- Foret Chelmno FO 1-4 Interview Uniquement
Interview with two men in the forest near Chelmno. The Poles brought SS guards to the forest at night in order to exterminate Jews. Lanzmann asks the men to describe Polish women who worked for the Germans, Jewish victims' belongings, and the occasions when Goering hunted in the forest near Chelmno.

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