ciberido:ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual. A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa. "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity. To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender. If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."

I didn't say I would assume any such thing. What I wondered was if someone would &/or could; and I have to say, given the almost infinite variations on how people behave, it's not unlikely.

As to the rest: I don't care. Trans, gay, Asian, straight, religious, lesbian or whatever people etc., etc. are all afflicted and endowed with same vices and virtues as the rest of humanity. One could be transgendered and still be the most hateful person on the planet; conversely one could be the nicest; it really is that simple. I prefer to deal with individuals based on their conduct as members of the human race, not categorize them into "like me = good, or not like me = bad."

mafiageek1980:JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?

Oh, yea, one more thing. Do you want to know how you didn't read my entire post? No really, want to know? Go back and re-read the second paragraph. You know, the one that starts with "On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get."

So we've got righteous indignation, sarcasm, and now an inability to read an entire post before retorting with something that I already posted I agreed with.

JPINFV:I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.

Serious question here... when did sarcasm and adult conversation become mutually exclusive?

serial_crusher:JPINFV: I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.

Serious question here... when did sarcasm and adult conversation become mutually exclusive?

ACunningPlan:JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw. Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed. And the AA analogy wasn't a good one. But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group). It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know. It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible. It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.

Shedim:omeganuepsilon: [cutting large chunk of text to save space and not annoy everyone else]

counteract the shame that society aims

So how would you go about it?

I understand the purpose. I'm just saying, that for every 3 steps forward, there are two steps back because of the delivery and public reception. It would be better to simply take one step forward.

How would I go about it? I wouldn't even change much. The campaign's intent is admirable but the execution can be self somewhat self defeating. A shift in PR is all. Retiring terms that are problematic based on how others will inevitably perceive them due to their actual definitions(as explained about pride)

If you want the enemy to accept you, or at least for their less indoctrinated to believe that less, do not give that stereotypical example.

MLK taught this in a way. He separated himself from violence and supremacy and such, held it in contempt himself. He didn't dress "white", he dressed professional, which is in reality a popular neutral sense of style and manner. While he did have an accent, he didn't give into reveling in the slang and style of popular culture. He taught similarities and wrote off the differences asnegligible.

That is the key to acceptance. Find that common ground,removes focus from the outliers, the radically different. Same concepts on making friends on an individual level. Get to know them and find the common ground, and begin doing things together.

Don't celebrate the differences, that imprints as victory and is also a challenge to the psyche of bigots.Don't go reveling in and flaunting the flamboyant, that conveys superiority. Use their language and remain calm and confident.

Just general guidelines, mind you, not instructions.

Remember, the conservatives have their decadences and pleasures as well. They tend to keep them out of the public and professional side of things however, they care about their public image. When they campaign, they do it in a suit, or to the local populace(ie casual wear).

It's like SLC punk. It is not selling out, it is buying in. If you want to win, you've got to fight them at home.

*shrugs*

At least you responded intelligently and rationally, more than I have come to expect on Fark.(and that goes for any given topic, not just LBGT threads)

MechaPyx:RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Why should they accept the hand they were dealt when there's a perfectly viable solution? Why shouldn't any of us take advantage of modern medicine and technology to improve our lives when possible? Isn't that what it's there for? Bottom line it's their life, their body, their choice.

Also, it seems hypocritical to ask trans people to justify their choices but not the millions of others who elect to have cosmetic surgery. All those women out there getting boob jobs and vaginal beautification procedures? Just deal with it. All those guys who went for penile implants, etc? Deal with it. Hair restoration? Nope. You're going bald. Deal with it. Hair turning gray? Deal with it. Six fingers on your right hand? Deal with it.

Seriously, who gives a fark what someone else decides to do with their body. Unless you're sleeping with them it's really no one else's business.

Now, see, this is the kind of shiat I got last time. What's wrong with wanting to understand? I'm not castigating them. I don't really care about what they choose providing it's legal and doesn't infringe on my rights. I have an opinion overall on changing oneself but I'm not going to club people with it because, well, I'm not them. I will answer your points though because I'm bored.

Why should they accept the hand they were dealt when there's a perfectly viable solution? Perfectly isn't quite the right word. From what I've read, transition surgery is a big, bad, pain in the ass that you've got to want as much as, say, gastric bypass surgery. It majorly changes your body in a majorly imperfect way so, naturally, I'm curious why someone would want to subject themselves to, in my opinion, that particular brand of hell. As for the rest of that paragraph, my wife and I think those surgeries are ridiculous and unnecessary save for the under-1% who genuinely need something like that done (say some lady lost about 1000 pounds and needed the skin cut off or a girl who was born with wildly different sized breasts.)

Also, it seems hypocritical to ask trans people to justify their choices but not the millions of others who elect to have cosmetic surgery. All those women out there getting boob jobs and vaginal beautification procedures? Just deal with it. All those guys who went for penile implants, etc? Deal with it. Hair restoration? Nope. You're going bald. Deal with it. Hair turning gray? Deal with it. Six fingers on your right hand? Deal with it. Yep, that's my opinion on it. Like I said though, that's MY opinion and they're free to do whatever they want. Who am I? Just some balding cripple-from-birth on the internets.

Seriously, who gives a fark what someone else decides to do with their body. Unless you're sleeping with them it's really no one else's business. I do because I'm curious. They don't have to answer if they don't want to. Thankfully, someone a lot nicer than you has cleared up the majority of my question though so thank god for that right?

Just putting it out there. I've been severely disabled my entire life. Eyes, ears, GI, back, joints, and especially my terrible lungs. I've worked with the cards I've been dealt. If a surgery came out THAT WAS SAFE, I'd take it in a heartbeat. If the trans surgery was safe, I'd have less of a curiosity about it, chalking it up to other, non-harmful cosmetic surgeries. Facts are facts though. Trans surgeries are big, life altering deals and I'm curious about those who would do them because... REASONS!!!

Thanks again, other two people who gave me a good answer. This is fun.

JPINFV:mafiageek1980: JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?

Oh, yea, one more thing. Do you want to know how you didn't read my entire post? No really, want to know? Go back and re-read the second paragraph. You know, the one that starts with "On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transg ...

Oh I read the whole damn thing, thank you very much, but your quote about us, does NOT make up for the fact in the very next sentence you state :"That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive".

ciberido:ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw. Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed. And the AA analogy wasn't a good one. But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group). It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know. It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible. It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.

Few decent people want to be attractive for what they are are rather than who they are.

RKade:Well son of a biatch... a real honest to god answer from someone who wasn't a trans backed up by a trans... and the first answer to boot.

*shakes head* I don't understand this topsy-turvy world! It wasn't at ALL like this last time! :P

In all seriousness, thank you very much, both of you, for that very nice and easy to understand explanation. Now I just need to find a trans who did the surgery and pick their brain. Surely, that's for more private channels than a thread like this though.

You're welcome. I prefer to answer sensibly because a) this is a subject I find interesting and b) there are enough people shiatting up the Internet as it is - I don't need to add to it.

ciberido:kukukupo: Gross. Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong. Don't push this crap on normal people.

Gross. Leave your stupid-ass bigotry in your head where it belongs. Don't push this crap on normal people.

I have a question about this kind of mindset. Obviously, Ciberido, you think this guy's an idiot. Why respond to his idiocy in a way that makes your side look just as bigoted. Not everyone can be openminded about everything.

Just let the turds that lack air bubbles of rational thought sink to the bottom of the bowl, dig?

ciberido:ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw. Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed. And the AA analogy wasn't a good one. But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group). It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know. It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible. It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.

Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

RKade:If the trans surgery was safe, I'd have less of a curiosity about it, chalking it up to other, non-harmful cosmetic surgeries. Facts are facts though. Trans surgeries are big, life altering deals and I'm curious about those who would do them because... REASONS!!!

It is a fairly safe surgery. The primary (and still rare) dangers are secondary: loss of sensation, inability to achieve orgasm, possibly urinary tract complications. Weighing the minor possibilities of those outcomes versus a thoroughly unworkable existence is a non-contest.

runcible spork:By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.

serial_crusher:Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

runcible spork:RKade: If the trans surgery was safe, I'd have less of a curiosity about it, chalking it up to other, non-harmful cosmetic surgeries. Facts are facts though. Trans surgeries are big, life altering deals and I'm curious about those who would do them because... REASONS!!!

It is a fairly safe surgery. The primary (and still rare) dangers are secondary: loss of sensation, inability to achieve orgasm, possibly urinary tract complications. Weighing the minor possibilities of those outcomes versus a thoroughly unworkable existence is a non-contest.

I was including all the hormone treatments in the surgery. I guess I should have called it "the procedure." Don't all the hormones with the surgery do a number on your body?

Oh god, has medical science finally evolved since last I looked? Not my fault. One eye. Didn't see it :P

ciberido:runcible spork: By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.

I'm not sure who or what is the authority on the topic, but GLAAD's page says you should never use "transgendered" and always use "transgender" as an adjective.

If there's some other guide out that which contradicts or supersedes this, I'd like to know.

So GLAAD agrees with this amateur lexicographer. Good. When in doubt, think and use common sense.

/ I also agree with the transgender/transsexual-as-adjective stance. Would you think it's respectful to call someone "a homosexual" or "a black"? (*There are some notable exceptions to this view, principally "lesbian.")

Ah yes, lets take our children and completely warp their minds by deceiving them into believing that this deviant behavior is normal. Good going liberal farking trash.

Account created: 2013-06-22 19:04:34

Bane of BrooneOh noes! There goes my validity!

It's okay. You weren't using it anyway.

JPINFVI'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed

It's to cancel out them being constantly told to be ashamed.

kukukupoGross. Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong. Don't push this crap on normal people.

Gender-normative heterosexuality is just a fetish.

serial_crusherCitations do not work that way.

It's reasonable to expect that there has been a medical study on the matter, and if Utter Genius is right then it should be possible to find a study which shows little or no change.

serial_crusher:ciberido: ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw. Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed. And the AA analogy wasn't a good one. But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group). It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know. It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible. It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.

Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

/ Wait, wasn't there a King of the Hill episode like that?

You mean the episode with Peggy Hill getting caught up with a drag show because she her feet are so big she can only shop at a store that caters to trans people? She didn't realize it until the end of the episode, she thought they were just women with large feet like her.

ACunningPlan:ciberido: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual. A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa. "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity. To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender. If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."

I didn't say I would assume any such thing. What I wondered was if someone would &/or could; and I have to say, given the almost infinite variations on how people behave, it's not unlikely.

In general my posts are directed to everyone in the thread, so when I say "please don't do X" I'm not specifically calling one person out or accusing any one person of anything. There are exceptions to this, but when such exceptions occur, I usually try to name the person specifically or otherwise make it very clear I'm talking about one specific person.

The fact that I am quoting you does not really mean that my post is aimed AT you. It's more to provide the context of what prompted me to say what I am about to say.

A funny thing about English is that we use the pronoun "you" for at least 3 different things, and that does cause a fair bit of confusion sometimes. My "yous" are often, but of course not always, generic.

That said (and now I AM addressing ACunningPlan specifically), I believe I responded to what you did wonder in a later post.

ciberido:runcible spork: By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.

I'm not sure who or what is the authority on the topic, but GLAAD's page says you should never use "transgendered" and always use "transgender" as an adjective.

If there's some other guide out that which contradicts or supersedes this, I'd like to know.

I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality. After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.

RKade:I was including all the hormone treatments in the surgery. I guess I should have called it "the procedure." Don't all the hormones with the surgery do a number on your body?

Oh god, has medical science finally evolved since last I looked? Not my fault. One eye. Didn't see it :P

The hormones, while undeniably helpful and influential, aren't particularly dangerous. That said, the effects of testosterone are much more dramatic than those of estrogens. As the well-informed hardinparamedic has mentioned, the best results occur when transition is effected prior to puberty, as it avoids the need to undo its ravages. Despite what uninformed knnejerks say, this isn't so controversial. Gender is a much more fundamental element than sexuality. Most transsexual people know their true gender by around age 5 or 6, while sexuality is typically contemporary with puberty, a so-called "sexual awakening."

Shedim:MrHappyRotter: Oh, and when in doubt, assume the person is a "he". It might seem sexist, but generally those who identify as female will let it slide, and those who identify will as male will be happy.

No. Pronouns don't work that way. If you must use pronouns at all, why not try these?

"If you must use pronouns at all"? Seriously? Have you ever tried NOT using sex-specific pronouns for a day? The Pronoun Game is not easy.

I challenge you to spend an otherwise normal day not using any pronouns which specify the sex of the people you're talking about. Come back and tell us how that day went.

Uh, that's not how MtF SRS works, and there is a huge controversy among providers, to the point of actively talking people out of undergoing genital reassignment currently, due to the risks of it. Even among infants who are born with sex-linked chromosomal gender disorders or ambiguous genitalia, doctors will hold off if possible (sometime's it's not) to assign a genital form until the concept of neurobiological gender is solidified.

runcible spork:serial_crusher: Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

Why not pretend to be FtM? Surely you can pull that off?

That just doesn't seem like as much fun. I don't think I qualify as a particularly attractive male, but I certainly don't have that many feminine physical characteristics so I guess I could pull it off. "Wow, I'd kill for back hair like that! That hairline looks like it's actually receding on its own! You must have spent years working on that beer gut!"

Even if I was an idealized perfectly fit manly man, I still don't think it would be as much fun. Trolling MtFs would rely heavily on the female predisposition towards cattiness. But now I'm wondering, how many FtMs retain their natural female cattiness? Seems like that's one of the first things you'd want to lose in the FtM transition, one of the first things you'd want to gain in the MtF transition.

Utter Genius:Meanwhile, back in reality, there is zero scientific evidence that sex reassignment surgery improves anyone's life or mental well-being.

But hey, how's that 41% suicide attempt rate working out for ya, transformers?

Uh, two things. First, you're completely full of shiat. SRS is not an all or nothing thing. Many people who are transgender do NOT go through with a full plastic reshaping of their genitals for the fact that it carries huge risks, like loss of urinary or sexual function, and inability to achieve orgasm. It also results in complete sterility. Secondly, there IS evidence - which is why the psychiatric community has been pushing to reclassify Gender Identity Disorder as a birth defect, rather than a mental health problem.

The other thing is that you have no farking clue why the suicide rate for transgenders is so high if you think it's because of SRS. You're probably the same caliber of person who says gays kill themselves because they're sinful.

serial_crusher:I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality. After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.

I don't feel that's a valid analogy. Sure, I'm biased, but I'll try to work through that, Even so, I think it can be worked with. Transgender = metal. Transgender--and metal-- encompasses the "subgenres": true transsexual, gender fluid, gender queer, transsexual-but-no-thanks-to-surgery, et al / black, death, speed, rap, et al. Using that simple structure as a foundation, you don't have to worry about specifics. See? it isn't so recondite.

ciberido:ACunningPlan: ciberido: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual. A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa. "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity. To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender. If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."

I didn't say I would assume any such thing. What I wondered was if someone would &/or could; and I have to say, given the almost infinite variations on how people behave, it's not unlikely.

In general my posts are directed to everyone in the thread, so when I say "please don't do X" I'm not specifically calling one person out or accusing any one person of anything. There are exceptions to this, but when such exceptions occur, I usually try to name the person specifically or otherwise make it very clear I'm talking about one specific person.

The fact that I am quoting you does not really mean that my post is aimed AT you. It's more to provide the context of what prompted me to say what I am about to say.

A funny thing about English is that we use the pronoun "you" for at least 3 different things, and that does cause a fair bit of confusion sometimes. My "yous" are often, but of course not always, generic.

That said (and now I AM addressing ACunningPlan specifically), I believe I responded to what you did wonder in a later po ...

Yes you did address my ponderings in the other answer. I think the amputees analogy is the best one yet, for the thought I was trying to express.

No worries on the "yous", that's the delicious complexity of language and communication at work [jimo]. Often words which start out as misunderstandings [civilized ones of course] produce very interesting conversations:)

serial_crusher:runcible spork: serial_crusher: Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

Why not pretend to be FtM? Surely you can pull that off?

That just doesn't seem like as much fun. I don't think I qualify as a particularly attractive male, but I certainly don't have that many feminine physical characteristics so I guess I could pull it off. "Wow, I'd kill for back hair like that! That hairline looks like it's actually receding on its own! You must have spent years working on that beer gut!"

Even if I was an idealized perfectly fit manly man, I still don't think it would be as much fun. Trolling MtFs would rely heavily on the female predisposition towards cattiness. But now I'm wondering, how many FtMs retain their natural female cattiness? Seems like that's one of the first things you'd want to lose in the FtM transition, one of the first things you'd want to gain in the MtF transition.

I honestly think you mean well, but you are understandably ignorant here.

runcible spork:serial_crusher: I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality. After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.

I don't feel that's a valid analogy. Sure, I'm biased, but I'll try to work through that, Even so, I think it can be worked with. Transgender = metal. Transgender--and metal-- encompasses the "subgenres": true transsexual, gender fluid, gender queer, transsexual-but-no-thanks-to-surgery, et al / black, death, speed, rap, et al. Using that simple structure as a foundation, you don't have to worry about specifics. See? it isn't so recondite.