I think it would be silly to not go with the cheaper option in this situation. Since you don't seem to be gunning for a V10 job in NYC I think this is still an easy choice for Duke. I have a good friend at the firm I'm working at who really regrets going to NYU since he ended up deciding he did not want to work in NYC biglaw. Have you ever actually been to NYC?

This is completely anecdotal, but I know far more happy people that attended Duke Law than attended NYU Law.

UVAIce wrote:This is completely anecdotal, but I know far more happy people that attended Duke Law than attended NYU Law.

I believe this. At the same time, it's such an individual choice; when the numbers are close enough to justify either option, so many other factors must come into play for OP that we could not begin to understand.

If Duke increases my scholarship this shouldn't be too tough, but as it stands I would go visit NYU early next week and then decide after that. I also wouldn't have to buy a car if I went to NYU, which would save me some extra money.

I'm thinking that currently Duke wins out for non-NYC big law and NYU wins out for PI and NYC big law. Would you guys agree with this?

The tough question, and the one that I'm having a hard time figuring out, is which is best for non-NYC PI.

Last edited by fdo15 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fdo15 wrote:If Duke increases my scholarship this shouldn't be too tough, but as it stands I would go visit NYU early next week and then decide after that. I also wouldn't have to buy a car if I went to NYU, which would save me some extra money.

this is a good plan. definitely visit. they have totally different vibes.

fdo15 wrote:The tough question, and the one that I'm having a hard time figuring out, is which is best for non-NYC PI.

By the bolded, I'm thinking you either mean clerking, or working in DC. The fed jobs are basically impossible to come by outside of HYS at the moment. I'm thinking that you will end up in NYC either way. If you just want to be a DA or PD in a local municipality on the eastern seaboard, then I would even suggest going to a cheaper school than either of these. If you want a prestigious/glorified PI position with an international agency or a major domestic non-profit, if you do manage to get it, it will probably be in new york.

fdo15 wrote:If Duke increases my scholarship this shouldn't be too tough, but as it stands I would go visit NYU early next week and then decide after that. I also wouldn't have to buy a car if I went to NYU, which would save me some extra money.

I'm thinking that currently Duke wins out for non-NYC big law and NYU wins out for PI and NYC big law. Would you guys agree with this?

The tough question, and the one that I'm having a hard time figuring out, is which is best for non-NYC PI.

NYU is undoubtedly better for P.I. But that should only matter if you are sure you want it, because everyone else gunning for P.I. will be. Seriously, P.I. kids are hardcore and if you aren't completely devoted to it from day 1, you don't stand a chance. Not to mention, there's a substantial risk that you'll strike out from P.I. regardless and end up having to work in NYC Biglaw with $100k of extra debt on your shoulders.

Like I said, unless you are 100% P.I. or bust, there really isn't an argument for NYU here.

Well I feel like these schools will know who I am at this point anyway, so I might as well give you all the details.

What I really want is environmental PI (don't laugh). My undergrad major was environmental science and I'm pretty passionate about it. Not worried about low salary as long as LRAP works out. What I'm worried about is going all out for some environmental PI job, missing, and being buried in debt with no big law options because my resume screams environmental PI. I'm pretty open to taking risks, but this is a big one.

fdo15 wrote:Well I feel like these schools will know who I am at this point anyway, so I might as well give you all the details.

What I really want is environmental PI (don't laugh). My undergrad major was environmental science and I'm pretty passionate about it. Not worried about low salary as long as LRAP works out. What I'm worried about is going all out for some environmental PI job, missing, and being buried in debt with no big law options because my resume screams environmental PI. I'm pretty open to taking risks, but this is a big one.

fdo15 wrote:Well I feel like these schools will know who I am at this point anyway, so I might as well give you all the details.

What I really want is environmental PI (don't laugh). My undergrad major was environmental science and I'm pretty passionate about it. Not worried about low salary as long as LRAP works out. What I'm worried about is going all out for some environmental PI job, missing, and being buried in debt with no big law options because my resume screams environmental PI. I'm pretty open to taking risks, but this is a big one.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, but aiming for environmental PI is analogous to going to law school because you want to be a SCOTUS clerk. And that may be an understatement. Nationally, a total of 130 2011 graduates got jobs with public interest law firms of all types. I realize environmental PI isn't limited to PI firms per se, but even so you're probably talking about a couple of dozen jobs per year that go to entry level candidates, of which 15 are going to HYS people.

Or to use another analogy, it's like getting into acting because you eventually want to star in a major studio film (with the key difference that getting into acting doesn't require buying a $250K license first).

fdo15 wrote:Well I feel like these schools will know who I am at this point anyway, so I might as well give you all the details.

What I really want is environmental PI (don't laugh). My undergrad major was environmental science and I'm pretty passionate about it. Not worried about low salary as long as LRAP works out. What I'm worried about is going all out for some environmental PI job, missing, and being buried in debt with no big law options because my resume screams environmental PI. I'm pretty open to taking risks, but this is a big one.

I realize environmental PI isn't limited to PI firms per se, but even so you're probably talking about a couple of dozen jobs per year that go to entry level candidates, of which 15 are going to HYS(B) people.

Either way, unfortunately OP, neither NYU nor Duke have much of a stand in this field. They might say they do, but as the poster above mentioned, you're basically looking at a selection of dream jobs that are more than likely to remain dreams. You should prepare a damn good backup plan. I would go to NYU with your goals just because it has a broader PI base and you might have an easier time finding what you're looking for or something closer to it -- throwing your resume around the PI pool there will hit more targets, with a higher overall likelihood of snagging something environmental -- but that's still a lot of debt to assume to chase it.

Would you be happy/satisfied practicing in another area of law? or are you PI/green or bust?

No way to know for sure, but I think I would honestly enjoy practicing in most areas of law. I wouldn't be going to law school if I wasn't very interested in law, and making a lot of money if I did big law would obviously be nice. The problem I'm facing is that I realize environmental PI is very hard to get, and that if I want to be competitive I really need to focus on that area of law (in addition to great grades, etc), which will make me much less employable in other areas of law.

Any advice about this dilemma? One of the reasons I asked earlier in the thread about transitioning to PI after several years in big law is that I thought (might be way off on this though) that I might be more employable for environmental PI with some good experience under my belt and if I missed I would still have a good job.

If Duke doesn't up their offer, I don't see much standing in the way of choosing NYU here.

You mentioned your 'empoyability' if you gun for environmental PI (in terms of class choice and grades). This will make you less employable in other markets whether you went to Duke or NYU. And in both cases, you have a better shot of it from NYU. It's not like choosing NYU is synonymous with choosing to take the chance at environmental PI. It just sounds like you have the two stuck together in your deliberation. Making a lot of money from biglaw is also in NYU's favor here, and you can choose to go biglaw gunning from there as well.

It seems the battle you are having is not NYU vs. Duke at the moment, but rather whether the risk of striking out of environmental PI is worth taking. And really it's up to your appetite for risk.

fdo15 wrote:If Duke increases my scholarship this shouldn't be too tough, but as it stands I would go visit NYU early next week and then decide after that. I also wouldn't have to buy a car if I went to NYU, which would save me some extra money.

I'm thinking that currently Duke wins out for non-NYC big law and NYU wins out for PI and NYC big law. Would you guys agree with this?

The tough question, and the one that I'm having a hard time figuring out, is which is best for non-NYC PI.

NYU is undoubtedly better for P.I. But that should only matter if you are sure you want it, because everyone else gunning for P.I. will be. Seriously, P.I. kids are hardcore and if you aren't completely devoted to it from day 1, you don't stand a chance. Not to mention, there's a substantial risk that you'll strike out from P.I. regardless and end up having to work in NYC Biglaw with $100k of extra debt on your shoulders.

Like I said, unless you are 100% P.I. or bust, there really isn't an argument for NYU here.

If you "strike out" from PI you don't do biglaw, because your last chance to do biglaw occurred two years earlier.

fdo15 wrote:If Duke increases my scholarship this shouldn't be too tough, but as it stands I would go visit NYU early next week and then decide after that. I also wouldn't have to buy a car if I went to NYU, which would save me some extra money.

I'm thinking that currently Duke wins out for non-NYC big law and NYU wins out for PI and NYC big law. Would you guys agree with this?

The tough question, and the one that I'm having a hard time figuring out, is which is best for non-NYC PI.

NYU is undoubtedly better for P.I. But that should only matter if you are sure you want it, because everyone else gunning for P.I. will be. Seriously, P.I. kids are hardcore and if you aren't completely devoted to it from day 1, you don't stand a chance. Not to mention, there's a substantial risk that you'll strike out from P.I. regardless and end up having to work in NYC Biglaw with $100k of extra debt on your shoulders.

Like I said, unless you are 100% P.I. or bust, there really isn't an argument for NYU here.

If you "strike out" from PI you don't do biglaw, because your last chance to do biglaw occurred two years earlier.

Actually, good point.

Especially when considering that OP wants to go into environmental P.I., which basically doesn't exist, it makes no sense to go to NYU. He would basically be banking $300k on a ~1% chance of getting the job he wants.

Tekrul wrote:If Duke doesn't up their offer, I don't see much standing in the way of choosing NYU here.

You mentioned your 'empoyability' if you gun for environmental PI (in terms of class choice and grades). This will make you less employable in other markets whether you went to Duke or NYU. And in both cases, you have a better shot of it from NYU. It's not like choosing NYU is synonymous with choosing to take the chance at environmental PI. It just sounds like you have the two stuck together in your deliberation. Making a lot of money from biglaw is also in NYU's favor here, and you can choose to go biglaw gunning from there as well.

It seems the battle you are having is not NYU vs. Duke at the moment, but rather whether the risk of striking out of environmental PI is worth taking. And really it's up to your appetite for risk.

This is terrible advice because it implies he has a realistic shot of getting environmental P.I. from either school. He doesn't, and wasting three years gunning for it is going to end badly. There is no argument for NYU here unless OP decides to settle for a more realistic P.I. goal.

I realize that I have two separate issues I'm dealing with here, but they are related in that I think my chances of big law or environmental PI (this might sound weird, but I'm not really interested in other PI, at least not any PI that you guys would consider a realistic career goal) would be better from NYU.

I always knew environmental PI was hard to get, but I guess I didn't know it was that hard to get. If my chances of getting an environmental PI job are less than 1%, I can't really justify the cost of either school. As a result, it looks like it'll probably be big law for me. I don't really care about V10 or whatever, so I'm thinking Duke is probably the best bet here.

Please understand that I mean no offense by the following comment .. but if you were turned from your PI goal to biglaw in a matter of hours by strangers on the internet, then you cannot expect to hold off the biglaw temptation for the next two years in law school. Also, Duke increasing your offer is another plus. Congratulations.

Well I haven't made any kind of final decision about the environmental PI thing. Before this I was probably 60/40 in favor of taking a shot for environmental PI, and now I'm probably 60/40 in the other direction. That coupled with everyone telling me anyone who isn't 100% set on PI ends up doing biglaw makes me think big law is the more likely outcome for me.

If the odds of getting environmental PI are like 1% from NYU does it really make sense for me to retake and try for Berkeley so that the chance becomes like 2%? I'm not sure Berkeley will open too many more doors than NYU or Duke.

fdo15 wrote:If the odds of getting environmental PI are like 1% from NYU does it really make sense for me to retake and try for Berkeley so that the chance becomes like 2%? I'm not sure Berkeley will open too many more doors than NYU or Duke.

I doubt it would. When you're dealing with super niche stuff like that, it tends to be HYS (and sometimes just Y) territory.