that's fine. i do think i'm IEI in many ways. But I am much more confident in scientific areas / constructing logical explanations than in social or political areas. I suppose I should go into an explanation... :

I have learned to be very manipulative through my life, but I still always have the feeling (in every social situation) that things are going to turn on me and I will be ostracized ...(as if I have zero control over the situation). I cannot call social or expressive situations my area of strength; I am highly attuned to them, but in a reactive way uncharacteristic of INFp.. who can, typically, control the flow of social situations (and easily align with people of utility). I also cannot control my emotional outbursts, for a surge of overwhelming negative energy. INFps seem much more collected and in control of their emotions. Their emotional reactions are measured, reasonable, politically tactful... mine are none of those. That, and I am very good with science / philosophy / math. Those areas are, I feel, my most confident. Throughout my life my most impressive achievements have been in these areas. For example like a month ago I pointed out a flaw in the philosophical position of my research methods of psychology teachers understanding of the scientific method (though I partially attribute that to studying socionics), I got 100 his test without reading the book. I kill any kind of debate. I can actually come up with my own theories and explanations for most anything almost instantly, and somehow, they end up being right and often times insightful.. it's like an instant reaction. I consider that my Te creative, partially overshadowed by strong Ni dominance and underappreciated / misunderstood by most who listen to it. ...(most will instantly disagree out of arrogance.) On top of this, I identify almost entirely with the INTp descriptions, VI as INTp ..(other than an INFp smile which I do have), and there are many aspects of INFp descriptions I do not identify with. I don't feel like I have anything close to duality with ESTps I've met or on the forum, but I've met ESFps and the chemistry was unmistakable. Other intertype relations I've had fit the INTp scheme of relations. I reconcile all this by saying I am INTp-Ni very close on the border with INFp. But sometimes I do think I can teeter across..

that's fine. i do think i'm IEI in many ways. But I am much more confident in scientific areas / constructing logical explanations than in social or political areas.

Funny that, same for me. Could it be intelligence? No, certainly not...but let's look further:

I have learned to be very manipulative through my life, but I still always have the feeling (in every social situation) that things are going to turn on me and I will be ostracized ...(as if I have zero control over the situation). I cannot call social or expressive situations my area of strength; I am highly attuned to them, but in a reactive way uncharacteristic of INFp.. who can, typically, control the flow of social situations (and easily align with people of utility).

You have social anxiety. I do, too, and it has nothing to do with type; I'm a fucking Fe dominant, for crying out loud. You wouldn't be this highly attuned to social dynamics if you were Fe PoLR; they are simply oblivious. We may feel paranoid in social situations, but part of this is due to being overly sensitive to the dynamics, combined with past experiences teaching us to expect the worst.

I also cannot control my emotional outbursts, for a surge of overwhelming negative energy. INFps seem much more collected and in control of their emotions. Their emotional reactions are measured, reasonable, politically tactful... mine are none of those.

That has nothing to do with being ILI; that has to do with your dominant E-type being part of the Reactive triad. You might point to someone like Nick as a comparison; he has outbursts that aren't always totally controlled. He may maintain a larger degree of control to some extent, but remember he is a 3 wing, which implies a much degree of behavioral control than 5 wing.

That, and I am very good with science / philosophy / math. Those areas are, I feel, my most confident. Throughout my life my most impressive achievements have been in these areas. For example like a month ago I pointed out a flaw in the philosophical position of my research methods of psychology teachers understanding of the scientific method (though I partially attribute that to studying socionics), I got 100 his test without reading the book. I kill any kind of debate. I can actually come up with my own theories and explanations for most anything almost instantly, and somehow, they end up being right and often times insightful.. it's like an instant reaction. I consider that my Te creative, partially overshadowed by strong Ni dominance and underappreciated / misunderstood by most who listen to it. ...(most will instantly disagree out of arrogance.)

This is just you being smart. I destroy everyone in my philosophy classes or anything where debate is involved, but Te and Ti are both technically "weak" functions for me (and no, I don't just steamroll people; I lay out logically irrefutable arguments in a calm manner and address all objections made). I always got good grades in science and math, too. You are Ni subtype, which implies stronger/more prevalent Ti than many of the people who are probably "obviously IEI" to you, but really it's just intelligence.

On top of this, I identify almost entirely with the INTp descriptions, VI as INTp ..(other than an INFp smile which I do have), and there are many aspects of INFp descriptions I do not identify with. I don't feel like I have anything close to duality with ESTps I've met or on the forum, but I've met ESFps and the chemistry was unmistakable. Other intertype relations I've had fit the INTp scheme of relations. I reconcile all this by saying I am INTp-Ni very close on the border with INFp. But sometimes I do think I can teeter across..

Identifying with descriptions just shows what appeals to your ego

You're IEI. Fucking accept it. Nick and I have discovered a myriad of IEIs who are behavioral clones of yours; you're practically a fucking archetype

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...

in light of realizing B&D is ISFp, and on that note, my psychotic brother is ISFp, I have revised a few of the conceptions I had about INFps and I am considering this. But I am not yet ready to change my type, mostly because the intertype relations don't seem to fit. And there are real aspects of INFp descriptions which I don't relate to. Especially the aversion to 'business logic' as they call it. I would say I'm attracted to 'business logic'. But I will look into this further and make a decision, I am not entirely closed off to the possibility. It might help if nick could describe to me exactly how Te polr works and feels..

RE: polrs -- I find it more significant to focus on Fe polr than Te. I could describe the function and how it manifests poorly in my psyche, but that's a lot less relevant to you being IEI. What I do think, is that an Fe polr would lack the keen awareness of interpersonal dynamics that you clearly illustrate. A recent example would be how you and I sized up haveluciddreamz's intentions in that thread immediately, and pointed out how they manifested within specific actions and reactions. A Te-ego wouldn't notice those kinds of things, and personal criticisms regarding actions would be more centered around the objective consistency lacking in someone's position, not underlying subtleties that give away intentions.

Another example that I think points to our commonality as IEIs, is the manner in which we have gone about mockingly undermining various NTs (ephemeros, polikjum, ashton, etc.). Aside from disputing stupidity with reason, the tactics usually entail "exposing" the transparency of someone's behavior, again, as it betrays intentions (i.e. wittmont in the mimosa thread lol).

Lastly, you are simply far too native in idea formulation for me to buy you as a gamma. Your longer explanations are ridden with Ti (overdone at times -- much like myself), and your way of sizing people up echoes the likes of myself, krae and other beta NFs I have interacted with. Additionally, beta aristocratic values pretty much ooze from you -- i.e. making a satirical thread about cataclysmic forum destruction, subjectively determing peoples' "worth" and very abruptly informing them of where they stand (i.e. "your opinion is worthless, therefore you should not speak" -- this is SeTi outlining explicit boundaries, somewhat arrogantly), and clearly getting off on the emotional antics that pervade this place (you always conveniently intervene in conflict situations with a sarcastic comment which incites further conflict ).

haha. yeah i suppose you're right. at this point, I'm changing my type to INxP. I think I am simply Ni, if that makes sense. Ni dominant, Se dual seeking, Ej polr / creative, and Ij hidden agenda / demonstrative.. the precise application of which fluctuates given the circumstances. I do relate to you guys, and I see where you're coming from. But at the same time, there are other betas i don't relate to. And there are some gammas I really do think are.. well, like braindead cows. Others I love talking to because they get it, like FDG. So.. Yeah.

And although I use business logic fluently, I can also get highly annoyed by the presumptuousness of poor business logic. In a way which, when I think about it, rivals the alienation and powerlessness I feel when confronted by Fe at times.

I could see him as IEI, he is too confrontational in my opinion to be an ILI; they tend to not want to bring that kind of attention upon themselves. It could be that he is a 4 so his behavior on the forum manifests itself differently than a typical ILI. I think only a 4, from what I understand, would mislead someone into thinking they were female instead of male.

EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

haha. yeah i suppose you're right. at this point, I'm changing my type to INxP. I think I am simply Ni, if that makes sense. Ni dominant, Se dual seeking, Ej polr / creative, and Ij hidden agenda / demonstrative.. the precise application of which fluctuates given the circumstances. I do relate to you guys, and I see where you're coming from. But at the same time, there are other betas i don't relate to. And there are some gammas I really do think are.. well, like braindead cows. Others I love talking to because they get it, like FDG. So.. Yeah.

I would ask what specific betas/gammas you do or don't get along with. You seem the most naturally relatable to people on the Ni/Se axis, so it wouldn't surprise me if some betas annoyed you.

And although I use business logic fluently, I can also get highly annoyed by the presumptuousness of poor business logic. In a way which, when I think about it, rivals the alienation and powerlessness I feel when confronted by Fe at times.

I think 'business logic' is a misleading term for Te. How do you see this thinking style manifesting on a functional level?

I'm beginning to wonder with Betas if it's more of a matter of who catches your attention and who doesn't (as opposed to who you get along with and who you don't).

I don't think it's odd at all for betas to dislike each other. The aristocratic preference naturally lends itself to forming very close-knit groups, centered around common ideas and attitudes; the willful certainty of the integrity of these groups, is what leads betas into conflict with one another (the ideas can't be wrong, or the implementation is baseless, i.e. the cause is meaningless).

Yeah. I think just standing out to the Betas is in itself evidence of being Beta, or at least sharing some quadra values. Whether they get along or not, just the fact that they're on each other's radars means something.

I'm pretty sure that he is one of the most intuitive and intelligent members on this forum; and perhaps his confusion on self typing stems from the fact that he is fairly young; to delineate his intelligence via supposed facts you learned from history class is just petty. And, your posts are chock full of HA imo.

EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

joy, i am honestly afraid to meet you in real life.
the real reason for the confusion is socionics is flawed, its too simple. not complex enough to fully describe a human being such as myself. self typing is generally more difficult because the person is more aware of these profound complexities. i don't consider this an abandonment of my INTp self typing; rather I consider it an elaboration. Notice I am now INXp. So yeah.. juju, i would venture to say you're the moron here, stuck within the simple world of 16 categories. go fuck a butt or something

Look, all that would probably happen is you'd end up dropping your "angry bulldog growling and snapping through the bars of a kennel" persona and just relaxing and maybe even enjoying yourself for a little bit. (Life's really not so bad, you know. )

I think Rat has some aversion to being a feeling type, which is understandable as he is clearly logical and confident with evaluating theoretical information.

So, Rat is basically a thinking INFp, which would make sense if he's N INFp 4w5 (Compare to Jung, who also considered himself a thinking type, and Nietzsche).

For the last time, Nietzsche was EIE-Ni, and probably 3w4/4w3. I mean, his beloved concept was of man "ascending to the superman," and he saw himself coming down from the hills to preach the way forward. Seriously.

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...