James, i agree w Quiet Morning- i too say the Jesus Prayer when distracted as advised by my Priest....also, if you can stand between the altar and this woman so that your back is to her, that may help as well...i am easily distracted so it helps me to stand close to the wall as far up front as possible...then i am not distracted by others and i don't feel self conscious re myself since i am like a "wall flower"...so- not distracted by self or others, it is easier to focus on the One whom liturgy is all about love and prayers, georgiana

Kids are a big distraction when they are too rambunctious, especially to the Catholic priest who has pedophile tendencies .

Cheap shot !! Knock it off !!! As I have said before, not all RC priests are pedophiles. I am sure we Orthodox have had problems with this issue as well as all other denominations. Are you so clueless that you have to get a dig in like this?

Seraphim

Just an informal suggestion from a moderator: To avoid driving the thread further off topic, just report the offending post to the moderators and let us take care of it. IOW, don't feed the troll. (No need to reply to this post unless you want to send me a private message, since we work hard to keep threads on target.)

Why admire the woman when you should be worshiping the One who created her? Seems like a rather significant step down...turn your thoughts away from earthly things, let us attend, etc., etc.

Just think: Just like God created this lady, God has also created someone (maybe several, seeing as how He loves to give us many chances) who will drive you wild at APPROPRIATE times (i.e., not during the liturgy), but that is likely largely contingent on your earning her favor by acting right...step one: not being the cartoon wolf while she's there trying to worship God, too.

The ball is really in your court, to say nothing of how she dresses (which is her own issue whether it causes you to think lustful things or not). Consider it a challenge from God to look her in the eyes when you talk to her, and if you sense your mind wandering to places it shouldn't go, to take the appropriate steps to nip that thought in the bud before you get all worked up. The passions are just like ants: A single one spotted wandering where it shouldn't be is probably a sign that there are many more where that came from, waiting for their moment to get in. Do what you need to do to keep yourself clean.

Sorry, bro, but if the skirt is short enough my eyes are going to wander. I can physically see her, not the one who created her. Perhaps we could settle on a middle ground? If I want to see underdressed broads I know where the strip joints are and I have a high speed internet connection. Perhaps at church they could dress close to decently?

Indeed. We all need to be considerate as regards modesty. We dress modestly for others, but also out of respect for ourselves.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

So why have women wear anything at all? Let them come to Church naked, and read the scriptures while doing a pole dance. I mean, lust is our problem not theirs. Doesn't matter how they dress or how they act. The sin is in the eye of the beholder not in the actions or attire of those that are beheld. But yeah, I realize that my calls for modesty make me no different than Osama Bin Laden.

Selam

I know you were being sarcastic, but I have heard Orthodox women talking amongst themselves about dressing modestly because "they would not want to aid another to fall into sin". The scriptures command women to be modest as well.

On this one I would not be specific to your priest of who it is. I would tell him of your distractions from immodestly dressed parishoners. The scriptures and the church teach of modesty. This is something your priest can handle VIA bulletin.

Exactly. This sums it up for me.

Ya know, Gebre, I find quite disturbing how so many of your posts on this matter focus on what the woman is wearing while so few say anything about why you let your eyes wander in the first place.

I know you were addressing him... I personally blame both.

A woman KNOWS when she is wearing something to show off herself. Cleavage, tight clothes, etc. Men, their eyes will wander which of course, is lust. The Orthodox woman that would purposely wear something to show herself off is aiding in causing her brother to fall into sin. She would also be disobeying the scriptures. In many churches as well as monasteries there is a dress code. Many times, no dresses above the mid-shin level, no low cut shirts, no tight clothing etc.

But you are right, it is a guy's fault for "wandering". But she also purposely is leaving out that temptation to cause another to fall. It's wrong for her to do that.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.Matthew 5:27-30 (KJV)

Note that Jesus does not say anything about the woman or what she is wearing. It's all about the person doing the looking because as He says elsewhere, "[n]ot that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11 (KJV)).

If looking at a woman lustfully makes one an adulterer, it also makes one a rapist. And, as we know, women who dress even the slightest bit provocatively deserve to be raped, right?

I give the OP a really hard time (because I think he deserves it, honestly) but in this case, I'm not trying to do so. Every. Single. Priest. who has counselled me on my own sins of a sexual nature has told me repeatedly, "Look somewhere else. Occupy your mind with something else. Don't fight the temptation head on, but put your thoughts wholly elsewhere." It's not going to happen overnight. You will fail and it's going to seemingly make things worse. Be patient. Your struggle is pleasing to God provided it is an honest one. It's going to suck really hard because you're quite hormonal.

But don't blame this woman for your faults. You're just compounding your own failings. I speak from experience.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,habte selassie

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it! I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

stay blessed,habte selassie

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it! I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.

Right, that's the point. And it seems clear from examples in Scripture that lust and temptation is a two way street. Bathsheba shared guilt along with King David. Delilah was also guilty with Samson. And Heroditus and her daughter were no more innocent that Herod. So it seems to me a good thing that a man wishes not to be bombarded with lustful displays during the Divine Liturgy. It's easy to simply tell him, "Well then, don't look." Apparrently some of you all are much more righteous than the rest of us. We don't want to look, but we are weak and we probably will. We bring enough mental and emotional distractions with us to Church as it is. Is it really too much to ask that women dress modestly for an hour a two a week? Gosh.

Selam

Logged

"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

We bring enough mental and emotional distractions with us to Church as it is. Is it really too much to ask that women dress modestly for an hour a two a week? Gosh.

What is your definition of modesty exactly? I mean come off it brothers, these ladies are faithfully entering into an Orthodox Church to stand in prayer with the rest of us, so what is the beef? Do we honestly think they are wearing their club outfits? They are dressed as professionally as ladies dress at work, and yes, there is sometimes some cleavage or calf, but are we that prudish that we men can't keep our minds out of the gutter simply because there was a little skin? Brother, have you seen all the traditional dresses that Ethiopian ladies wear to Church? They would greatly offend the Westboro Baptist crowd, and yet these are straight traditional! The example is that we men need to be on OUR best behavior, and like the Anaphora of Our Lord in the Ethiopian Tradition says, "God is looking, let no one notice the sins of their neighbors."

Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it! I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.

You aren't giving credit where credit is due, you are scapegoatiing your own internal problems onto other people. Why do you assume that if a women isn't wearing something your grandmother would wear that she is a soiled dove? Again, what is your issues with your sexuality that you have to project that onto the entire world let alone women? We are not talking about women wearing bikinis into the parish, we are talking about matters of taste. We should know point blank that if a woman is taking the time and effort to stand and pray the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church, that she is hardly some sexual venom yielding Sucubus. So again, I will reiterate that if men like ourselves can't keep our wandering eyes on the Icons during Liturgy, that remains entirely OUR OWN problem, not theirs. If you want the women in your parish to change the way they dress, sounds like you have a lifetime of work ahead of you to go through the processes of Ordination, so you can become the local Bishop, and then brow beat such ladies from the pulpit, but in the meantime when you're standing in the back with the rest of us laity folks, keep your eyes on the prize and not on the anatomy of the attractive ladies praying around you. If anything, be grateful attractive ladies are still coming to Church faithfully in the first place, caustic attitudes about the way they are dressing may just push them away, and you'll get your wish, a Church full of elderly ladies wrapped up from head to toe in prayer shawls and white garments

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:17:40 PM by HabteSelassie »

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it! I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.

You aren't giving credit where credit is due, you are scapegoatiing your own internal problems onto other people. Why do you assume that if a women isn't wearing something your grandmother would wear that she is a soiled dove? Again, what is your issues with your sexuality that you have to project that onto the entire world let alone women? We are not talking about women wearing bikinis into the parish, we are talking about matters of taste. We should know point blank that if a woman is taking the time and effort to stand and pray the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church, that she is hardly some sexual venom yielding Sucubus. So again, I will reiterate that if men like ourselves can't keep our wandering eyes on the Icons during Liturgy, that remains entirely OUR OWN problem, not theirs. If you want the women in your parish to change the way they dress, sounds like you have a lifetime of work ahead of you to go through the processes of Ordination, so you can become the local Bishop, and then brow beat such ladies from the pulpit, but in the meantime when you're standing in the back with the rest of us laity folks, keep your eyes on the prize and not on the anatomy of the attractive ladies praying around you. If anything, be grateful attractive ladies are still coming to Church faithfully in the first place, caustic attitudes about the way they are dressing may just push them away, and you'll get your wish, a Church full of elderly ladies wrapped up from head to toe in prayer shawls and white garments

stay blessed,habte selassie

There was a point and you missed it by a mile...

First off, I am no stranger to the naked female form. Anything that would cause me to raise an eyebrow in church would be a class IV felony, so not really an issue. Besides, all the regulars at my Church dress very nicely. Attractive, yet modest. And when the Paschativities come twice a year their short skirts and hooker heels are more than made up for by the facial disfigurement they opt for by covering themselves in pounds of makeup. Honestly, a few of these girls would be like lusting after a circus clown. So, this is not an issue with me. If you have straying eyes then come off your sanctimonious horse, and LISTEN. My eyes don't stray, they go exactly where I tell them to.

What I was saying was, we have lucifer and the demons to tempt us. That is their role in this world. They are here to drag us from the ladder to Heaven, kicking and screaming as we fall headlong into the abyss where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Our duty as Christians is to MINISTER to our brothers and sisters. If something leads your brother into sin, he is weaker than you. Is that any reason to gloat? No. For the demon of pride is every bit as noxious and malodorous to the Lord as the lust of your brother is. We should minister to our brothers and sisters. If dressing a certain way causes some to fall, then DON'T DO IT. Would you drink whiskey around an alcoholic? Would you flaunt wealth in front of a klepto? Would you give a .38 to a psycopath? Why then would you tempt someone who has natural human emotions and the honesty to admit it by dressing provocatively?

First off, I am no stranger to the naked female form. Anything that would cause me to raise an eyebrow in church would be a class IV felony, so not really an issue. Besides, all the regulars at my Church dress very nicely. Attractive, yet modest. And when the Paschativities come twice a year their short skirts and hooker heels are more than made up for by the facial disfigurement they opt for by covering themselves in pounds of makeup. Honestly, a few of these girls would be like lusting after a circus clown. So, this is not an issue with me. If you have straying eyes then come off your sanctimonious horse, and LISTEN. My eyes don't stray, they go exactly where I tell them to.

What I was saying was, we have lucifer and the demons to tempt us. That is their role in this world. They are here to drag us from the ladder to Heaven, kicking and screaming as we fall headlong into the abyss where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Our duty as Christians is to MINISTER to our brothers and sisters. If something leads your brother into sin, he is weaker than you. Is that any reason to gloat? No. For the demon of pride is every bit as noxious and malodorous to the Lord as the lust of your brother is. We should minister to our brothers and sisters. If dressing a certain way causes some to fall, then DON'T DO IT. Would you drink whiskey around an alcoholic? Would you flaunt wealth in front of a klepto? Would you give a .38 to a psycopath? Why then would you tempt someone who has natural human emotions and the honesty to admit it by dressing provocatively?

Or are you not your brother's keeper?

Excuse me, no one is being sanctimonious or gloating here, but your tone and demeaning choice of words to describe women you disagree with is what I was offended by. Further, since this is mostly men on this forum and in this thread, you are speaking too freely. didn't miss any point by any mile, I can thread the needle like I was Brett Farve yo

We can't blame our issues with internal sins on the Devil or women, but ourselves, period.

The definition of provocative fluctuates, and as we mentioned before, it is the man, not the manner of dressing. A man can be tempted by a woman wrapped up like a mummy if so inclined. If these women are not being chased up out of the Church by a crowd with pitchforks, chances are the rest of parish doesn't find their manner of dress provocative at all!! We are talking about ways of dressing, and there are no "hookers" in the Church, and even if there were, its not YOUR place or MINE to judge them, and if their appearance causes any shortcomings in ourselves (this includes myself) then that is OUR own internal problem to deal with. To judge those women isn't our place or our business.

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 03:06:12 PM by HabteSelassie »

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Maybe some men should just grow up and own up to their own weaknesses with out demonizing or vilifying women?

It's not so much a matter of vilifying so much as giving credit where it is due. I mean, I have lucifer and legions of fallen angels to tempt me and they do a hell (heh) of a job at it! I don't need soiled doves to try and one up them.

You aren't giving credit where credit is due, you are scapegoatiing your own internal problems onto other people. Why do you assume that if a women isn't wearing something your grandmother would wear that she is a soiled dove? Again, what is your issues with your sexuality that you have to project that onto the entire world let alone women? We are not talking about women wearing bikinis into the parish, we are talking about matters of taste. We should know point blank that if a woman is taking the time and effort to stand and pray the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church, that she is hardly some sexual venom yielding Sucubus. So again, I will reiterate that if men like ourselves can't keep our wandering eyes on the Icons during Liturgy, that remains entirely OUR OWN problem, not theirs. If you want the women in your parish to change the way they dress, sounds like you have a lifetime of work ahead of you to go through the processes of Ordination, so you can become the local Bishop, and then brow beat such ladies from the pulpit, but in the meantime when you're standing in the back with the rest of us laity folks, keep your eyes on the prize and not on the anatomy of the attractive ladies praying around you. If anything, be grateful attractive ladies are still coming to Church faithfully in the first place, caustic attitudes about the way they are dressing may just push them away, and you'll get your wish, a Church full of elderly ladies wrapped up from head to toe in prayer shawls and white garments

stay blessed,habte selassie

There was a point and you missed it by a mile...

First off, I am no stranger to the naked female form. Anything that would cause me to raise an eyebrow in church would be a class IV felony, so not really an issue. Besides, all the regulars at my Church dress very nicely. Attractive, yet modest. And when the Paschativities come twice a year their short skirts and hooker heels are more than made up for by the facial disfigurement they opt for by covering themselves in pounds of makeup. Honestly, a few of these girls would be like lusting after a circus clown. So, this is not an issue with me. If you have straying eyes then come off your sanctimonious horse, and LISTEN. My eyes don't stray, they go exactly where I tell them to.

What I was saying was, we have lucifer and the demons to tempt us. That is their role in this world. They are here to drag us from the ladder to Heaven, kicking and screaming as we fall headlong into the abyss where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Our duty as Christians is to MINISTER to our brothers and sisters. If something leads your brother into sin, he is weaker than you. Is that any reason to gloat? No. For the demon of pride is every bit as noxious and malodorous to the Lord as the lust of your brother is. We should minister to our brothers and sisters. If dressing a certain way causes some to fall, then DON'T DO IT. Would you drink whiskey around an alcoholic? Would you flaunt wealth in front of a klepto? Would you give a .38 to a psycopath? Why then would you tempt someone who has natural human emotions and the honesty to admit it by dressing provocatively?

Or are you not your brother's keeper?

What about attractive women, are they a provocation to you? Should all attractive women come to church with their faces wrapped up in muslin just because you don't want to exercise self control?

Ok, you guys are just being silly now. I think that I am being made the brunt of some sick joke. Ha, lulz.

I will just point out what I believe one more time and leave it at that. I believe that women should dress themselves modestly and sensibly in decent clothes. Not with fancy hair or lots of jewelry and expensive threads. I’d rather they flaunt their good deeds, like religious women would.

As for the slut, she carries a snare and spreads her net everywhere, even in church. They might say that they never caused other to sin. They might not have done so by their words, but their dress and manner are far more dangerous than even what she says. When you make someone sin in their heart how are you innocent? Tell me, who is judged, the one who drinks the poison or the one who concocted it? These women prepare an abominable cup, they have served the strychnine, and are more abominable than even those who poison the body. They don’t just kill the man but murder his very soul! And even worse, it isn’t enemies that they are killing, they don’t do this because they have to, they are not avenging some wrong, but only out of foolish vanity and pride.

I’m sorry my brothers, but that evil I cannot support, even if it means not being politically correct.

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up? Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk? While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up? Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk? While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.

Agreed. As much of a peacock as I can be at times, when it's time to go to church, the old gray suit/sober tie combo comes out.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up? Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk? While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.

Agreed. As much of a peacock as I can be at times, when it's time to go to church, the old gray suit/sober tie combo comes out.

I will admit to a putting a touch of something in my hair, though, to look presentable. The Florida humidity makes me look more appropriate to a clown mass than the Liturgy otherwise.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up? Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk? While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.

Will respond more in depth but later but for the most part agreed.

I would like to point out that I am a little bit of a hypocrite in this regard. I wear a white dress at church with gold threadwork and glittery gold crosses all over it...but it does go down past my calves. It's pretty shiny!

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up? Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk? While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.

Will respond more in depth but later but for the most part agreed.

I would like to point out that I am a little bit of a hypocrite in this regard. I wear a white dress at church with gold threadwork and glittery gold crosses all over it...but it does go down past my calves. It's pretty shiny!

LOL! I didn't know you were a bishop!

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

What about the men who put mouse in their hair and gel it up? Or wear very strong cologne, or shiny cuff links, and shoes that click when they walk? While these things may not cause women to faint from desire....it is still a distraction.

If women are to dress drab and modest, so, should the men.

Agreed. As much of a peacock as I can be at times, when it's time to go to church, the old gray suit/sober tie combo comes out.

I will admit to a putting a touch of something in my hair, though, to look presentable. The Florida humidity makes me look more appropriate to a clown mass than the Liturgy otherwise.

I don't live in Florida, but with hair like mine, you have to gel it. I doubt there's anyone who can't pay attention because she's thinking "Hey, look at his hair!" though.

How could we possibly make the sign of the Cross properly with gloved hands?

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

James, it helps me to pray the Jesus Prayer when I'm in Liturgy. It also helps me to pray to the Holy Theotokos and ask for Her aid to keep my attention centered on Her Son.

I'd advise him to talk to his spiritual father before doing that. I was told that for most of the liturgy the Jesus prayer is discouraged, as one should be focusing on the liturgy itself and the communal prayer. The monk who aids in liturgy at my church always puts aside his prayer rope during the service, which I assume means he is not saying the Jesus prayer, though he may be. I always assumed only monks of the Great Schema continued in their own prayer during Liturgy.