It is Saturday, March 12th and we are talking with Mrs. Judith Carrington. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, your three careers, your, you know, and your relationship to Mr. and Mrs. Sherwood.

And relationship to Ada and Jim Sherwood; Jim is actually the youngest, my father is the oldest. Jim's the youngest of the siblings, so we were the closest in age, but he's my uncle. He's my uncle. He married Ada who became like a sister.

The siblings were here within the community. He [James Sherwood Sr.] had a sister on Sharon Street, he had a brother on the corner of Sharon and Harvard Avenue. Of course my father in the house because it was a two-family so.

So my father was the oldest and there was Helen who lived next door; that's what was next to him. Sonny Sherwood who was the city messenger who lived at the next corner; corner of Sharon and Harvard. And then another sister who lived further down on Sharon Street; Ruthie, Ruth Sherwood Lassiter. Yeah that takes in the five and Jim.

Great. Really great. I'm an only child so it was really great for me because, you know, the cousins were all like sisters and brothers. So, Jim had just the only child James, junior. Ruthie had no children. Walter, Sonny had no children. I'm an only and the only other one with children was Helen who's next door.

And you've met Delores Harris? Yeah? Well she's the oldest of, of the second generation. Okay? She doesn't like for me to say that. [laughs] That's a joke. But she's the oldest, then myself, then this is a thing I can do.

What was growing up like in West Medford? You mentioned that, you know, everybody was already close. So I figure, I mean I grew up in a similar kind of situation where all my cousins were right like, up the block and everything, it was good that everyone was there, but you can't really do anything.

[laughing] See I didn't feel that. It was a great situation. It's funny because Medford is a small community, so when I grew up there were probably three streets, three or four streets of black folks and so everybody knew each other.

And I just going to say, and then watched it grow from two or three streets Medford, of black folks, to being the most densely settled black community outside the city of Cambridge. So it went from one extreme to the other.

The routine; pretty much like any other routine. You know, any other, any other neighborhood. We had a community center which most of us couldn't wait to get out of school to, to, to attend and that was on Arlington Street actually.

Well they had after school studies for those that, that needed it. They had games, activities, you know for most of the kids, they had social, social clubs and things like that. Just anything to keep kids occupied, you know.

Pool; that was everybody's favorite. Pool was popular at that time and you didn't find too many pool tables around, you know or pool parlors in a suburb like this. In the city, you probably did, but not in a suburb.

Oh God that's a good question. Probably until about nine or ten at night because there were evening activities too and of course the older you were the more, you know, you could do in the evening, in regards to evening activities. But I'd say nine or ten. I'm gonna say nine or ten.

See those are the kind of questions that would take some time for me because I haven't given it really any thought, you know. So just spur of the moment. Let's move on and maybe I'll get back or something like that, cause I don't want to loose too much time, you know.

But it was a gathering place for other, you know, communities. With Cambridge, the kids from Cambridge came to Medford, you know. We had functions and vice versa. So, it kinda pulled black communities together those community centers.

Cambridge,the Cambridge community center was a larger community center, much larger than ours and they had tremendous amount of functions at that time. But, we're talking Chelsea, Everett, Malden; there's a lot of activity there.

I really can't recall my first day of school, I know most kids can but I can't. so it must have been pretty uneventful. [laughing] I know I liked school, I always liked school. So I had no problem with, with school.

But there was Mrs. Lee, there was Mrs. O'Brien, there was who else, McTaggette. Those kind of things I can recall and even the layout of the school, you know. But as far as special things, not off the top of my head.

Well I left school, lets say I left a year early, it wasn't quite a year. There was few of us decided that we, we really at that time we could do that sort of thing and, you know, just came back for graduation. But it was probably like six months and started working.

I, myself, wanted to work and make some money before going to medical school, you know, so. But there was a couple of us that did that, forged our ages and [laughs] worked for an electronic corporation because they paid really well.

No because the electronic companies paid really well, so a friend of mine and myself were lucky enough to get into, what would it be called today, a test lab. We were testing diodes. So we were sampling, you know, the production diodes, so it was kinda nice job for a young kid.

Like a quality control situation, you know. So it was really, that's what, the word I was looking for. So it was really, yeah, so it was really a nice, a nice job making good money. We worked at that, both of us, for six months before we started school.

My daughter did though, yeah. When they started the bussing, and I was really opposed to it because she wasn't, you know. See Medford, and then maybe you may get a lot of disagreement from some people on, with me on this one.

But my feeling is, and I thought I had the good knowledge too by having Ada and Jim in the school system, that, you know, Boston had its problems no doubt about it; the city of Boston, but I didn't feel that Medford did and neither did they. He was a permanent teacher, she subbed and so she traveled from school to school here in the city.

And a lot of the problems that some people were trying to create. You always have those people that just try to jump on bandwagons. I didn't feel and she didn't feel were in the city of Medford, so there was a group that wanted to bus the kids from this neighborhood to other neighborhoods and I was opposed to that, especially with the school on the street here. And I didn't do it.

So she wasn't based at the Hervey School. Because I was under the impression...

JC

There was a time when she, you know, she, when she first initially went back into the school system when, when her son was old enough for her to do that, she felt old enough to do that, she went back in as a substitute teacher.

Okay. So a lot of the parents were talking about. Well you said that some people might disagreed with you with... Some people thought that the bussing was good?

JC

Some people thought that the bussing was good. That they weren't getting the proper education at their little community school here, and that the books were different. And these were some of the comments that were made and I know for fact that wasn't the case.

Uhuh. And then some people probably honestly and sincerely thought that their child needed some type of social whatever, I don't know what you want to call it, because it wasn't a predominately black school, you know, so.

Does she ever be continuing practicing her drumming in school? Did she learn from school? Or was it...

JC

Believe it or not she didn't participate in any musical activity in the school because she basically, she was a child prodigy. So she was basically so far ahead of the other children. She was just, all of her music participation was at Berkeley, because she was at Berkeley College at fourteen.

Yeah. She just received an honorary doctorate in September. This past September, a year ago September. Time flies, a year ago September. And she's now coming back to Berkeley to teach this year, this coming year.

Yeah. But the, she was there, she won a full scholarship given to her by the founders of Berkeley, the Berks. Berkeley is now the largest international music school in the world. I know it seems, a lot of people still think Julliard in New York is, predominately it's Berkeley College of Music now. Yeah.

I was curious how, if you could, West Medford or James and Ada Sherwood, I guess if her [Teri Lynn Carrington] growing up in that community kind of gave her more to be able to go so far? Like if the, if the community was something that showed her how to handle it.

Um, the community. Well when she grew up it was really, even though the community itself had grown, everybody was still; you know they say "it takes a village," but that's just what it was like. Because everybody knew everyone else's kid and so it was like, you know, their own almost.

It's not that way now, but it certainly was when I grew up and then when she grew up even though the community had grown. So yeah, everybody had a hand in it, you know. She was close to all her aunts and uncles. She was like the daughter Ada didn't have.

But, but she, everybody liked Ada. She was very, she was fun-loving. She had a great personality. She loved being around people, meeting people. Always had a thing about accents; she could always tell where a person was from, from their accent, what part of the country. She just had that gift, you know, and we used to tease her about it. You know these things seem insignificant because I can't think right now.

Exactly. And as I say we lived in the same house until, when? Well, I moved out and moved into this house when Teri was a year old. That, you know, was just down the street. My father was still living and still there. So it was like, you know, there was no change really, just a slightly different space.

Well let's see, when I got married, my husband loved this community and loved this area, so and his work was in Cambridge, so that kind of, you know, made it so that he didn't especially want to leave the area. And that was fine by me because I loved the convenience of Medford. I really do.

I wasn't, didn't think I was a city person, although now I wouldn't mind living in the city. I'd love to live in a big high rise somewhere right now [laughs] where I wouldn't have to worry about anything. Go in close my door.

But that's basically the reason I stayed here, you know. The family was here, he loved it here, he was close to the family, no reason to leave. Traveled a lot, so its not, you know, that didn't know what was going on in other parts of the world, but wanted to stay right here, you know.

See that's a toughy, you have to. Those are the questions that I need some, the chance to think about, you know. That's why if I had had seen this before I might have been more helpful today. But we can still, you know, pick this up at another time and I can make some notes, you know, as I remember things.

NP

Okay.

PE

Just so you know you are doing great in telling us a lot of information.

Jimmy will give you a lot of information. He's, he's a talker too so and, and can express himself quite well, so. But he'll give you a lot of information. He wouldn't, he will enjoy doing this sort of thing, trust me.

PE

And if you think that, afterwards, that you forgot to tell us something you can write it down.

Well, see that's what I'd like to do. You know, within the next couple of weeks or so, just write things down and then, you know, be able to either have a converstion with you over the phone or whatever, you can come back. However you want to do it. Because I think for me that would be more meaningful and you'd probably get more out of it than just me trying to stumble through this and reflect back over forty years, fifty years.

That would be great and then I can just put together, you know, those things as they come to me. And I'm a great one for notes. [chuckles] Jim was that way too, we were the people, two people in the family that had notes on top of notes. And to-do-lists. Which used to drive Ada crazy.

Would you want me to, I mean I, I'll be here for my Spring break. It just, I mean it doesn't, I want. I really want this, whatever I write up, to be meaningful. I want it not to be "this person was..." You know that kind of very bland thing and I understand that, you know, you need time to think about stuff and really reflect on things. So I will be here for, for most of my Spring break, which is the time, the timeframe I'm working with to produce a rough draft for my professor so even if

And as far as the personalities of Mr. and Mrs. Sherwood, how did you perceive them to be as your aunt and uncle, with, you know, growing up?

JC

Well at one point they were, you know, clearly aunt and uncle and then because of the proximity, you know, in age, as you get older that kind of diminishes, you know, and so then it became almost like sister and brother.

Like if I didn't know them and you wanted to describe them to me, if you had a story, that you guys went somewhere or you took a trip somewhere or you guys sat down and talked about something. How that might have gone?

JC

Well we talked about a lot of things and this is what I'm saying, it's hard to capture when you're that involved with somebody, it's hard to capture, you know, incidents.

If you're, if you're not familiar with a person, you know that close to a person, it's easy to pick those things that stand out, so that I really can't do. But I can tell you a little bit about their personalities, especially his. Hold on just a second can you.

His father could speak in front of a crowd at the drop of a hat. Um, and hold your interest because he had that dry sense of humor and he... I'll tell you who he reminded you a lot of, and when I see the beginning of the show on television it's, it's him all over, and that's Bill Cosby.

Okay Was that kind of unheard of during, during those times that you had a second home.

JC

Not really, but they were some of the, I won't say first, but they were like maybe the second generation of folks to have a place on the island, you know. A lot of people visited and during their, their era people, more black folks started to buy and own property there.

So it was, it was just your family or other families from West Medford that kind of meshed together?

JC

Oh no, it was a mixture. It could be anything from just mine to, you know, the mixture.

NP

Okay.

JC

Yeah.

NP

A little, a little, a little more about Mrs. Sherwood. I've, I've heard like she was a great cook and she was very, she, she wore white gloves and she, you know, was very particular about looking well and speaking well.

And she as a teacher, would, wouldn't, wouldn't hesitate to correct a child if they were speaking incorrectly and she was just very, you know, wanting to make the children shine in the best way that they could. Was she like that at home?

She was, but she, that, that sounds like somebody that's pretty, pretty prim and proper and pretty structured. And even though she was structured, she was like a free spirit. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it really isn't because she was hung up with those kinds of things, but when she would do that, it was done very gently.

Nobody would take offense to it but, other than maybe their son. [laughs] You know and that was just the regular, just the parent, you know, child relationship I think.

NP

Right

JC

And peer pressure that made things a bit difficult for him and maybe thought his parents because of being educated too, you know, were, a bit more strict than, than other parents. But in essence, they weren't.

Oh I understand, but it's just difficult to come up with those, you know. I'll tell you something, I don't know if Jimmy mentioned it, just to give you insight into his personality also. But he bought her a car, a new car one day and, with Jimmy's help, and drove up in front of the school and put a huge, huge, huge bow on top of it.

Rang the bell and one of the students, of course, had answered, you know, answered the door and went back in for her and said there was somebody there for her, to see her and they pulled her out of the classroom. And lo and behold there was a car, you know.

NP

Do you know how she reacted to that?

JC

Well, I wasn't there [laughs], but, I mean, you know, how unusual is that.

I'd, I just, I, it just seems like you know she was a great person, one-on-one. But I'd like to return to Mr. Sherwood. You said he was a great man in the crowd and he had a good...

JC

He was the organizer, in fact we used to tease him about it.

NP

What, like with what things? 'Cause he was, you know, like this ringleader.

JC

Whatever he got involved in, with, if a group of friends decided they wanted to do something or if it was no more than playing cards, we used to like to play a lot of, a lot of cards; whist, poker, bridge.

He was always the organizer and so it reached the point where, you know, people used to tease him and say well, you know, you're, you're programming us you know. [laughs] And he'd just laugh it off and continue to do it. But he was always the organizer whether it was at his house or someone else's.

NP

Really?

JC

Hmm. Um. Or if it was going to be a social event at some public place. He was always the organizer. He'd be the one to make the phone calls, sometimes Ada would help him, but basically him.

Okay. Well that's good. We talked about going to school, we talked about your daughter's experience during segregation, desegregation and how you guys kept her in the community and we talked about their personal, personalities and how their home life was because you all lived in the same home for a number of years.

No, not really. I know they both enjoyed it. In fact, Jim tried to encourage me to go into teaching, but I knew, you know, that it was not the profession for me. I didn't have, I didn't feel had the patience.

He used to love his time off, so they did a lot of traveling, you know. Although they did work with children, I don't know if Jimmy mentioned that, you know, they worked the playground during the summer months.

If you wanted anything to be remembered about Mr. and Mrs. Sherwood what would it be? And I'm going to give you a few minutes to think about that. And if they were alive, how do you think they would handle being nominated to be remembered and what do you think they would say about themselves? So you can take a few seconds.

And on occasion I will run into people across the city and you know, they say, they will say "Sherwood" and "oh was that your family that taught at the Roberts," you know, because at that time it was predominately white. There might have been maybe three or four black students in that school.

Yeah. It was in that part of Medford where there weren't many, you know, African Americans living. And, but the accolades that I get, you know and have always received about him are just amazing, you know.

And, I mean, I know this may take a little more time to think about, but for you personally, if you could think about what they meant to you in your life and growing up. And not necessarily growing up, since they were close age, but, you know, how they helped you be, be, you know, be who you were and support you.

Of that generation. You know, Dolores is the oldest, then myself and then there were two other girls and then, and then Jim. So he is not only the only male but the youngest in that generation of children. But we were like everybody's child, you know.

Yeah. James Sr. took great delight in pulling off a surprise. So on occasion we tried to get him back and we'd go to great expense in trying to do those things. Like Delores and I on Christmas day flew out to Indiana and surprised them. They were out there with her, with Ada's mother.

You know I find it easier if you're a bit removed, you know, like I can talk about incidences with Lucinda Fields and, you know. Somebody else I was very fond of but you know, you don't have quite that same relationship. Such a closeness there, that you can, you know, more easily cite incidences.