MvCI Meta and Tier Discussion

The Badness is BACK! Crack is back. Great PR is back...not really back. At least it's back.

Ground Rules. READ. Derail the thread excessively and it will be Hammer Time

Most important
1. Make sure the discussion generally pertains to the meta/strategy or tiers around the competitive gameplay for Marvel Infinite.

2. DO NOT become a Video Game Politician in this thread. If you want to fight for Capcom's rights or fight to overthrow Capcpom, please keep that in other threads that are not this one (and be careful with overdoing it in those threads as well).

3. If Marvel Infinite is the most BAD GAME EVER and it makes you so mad that you forget to buy your cup of coffee in the morning, please keep that somewhere else. If the game is random and poopy and shitty compared to Marvel 3, Marvel 2 or whatever else you play, that's great. It also doesn't add anything meaningful to the meta or tier discussion for this game. Be a constructive poster with a bit of joking and trolling to be fun. If you're a full blown destructive poster then you'll be behind bars during most of this thread.

Additional

Please try not to talk too much about games that are not MvCI or the prequels. This is for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite Discussion. If you're getting to the point where you're reminiscing about an old Marvel instead of talking about Infinite, you'll get warned. You can bring them up without the full derail.

Please do not OVERLY DISCUSS balance wishlists. These don't really get the thread going anywhere as it just talks about things that will likely not happen. This thread is to discuss how the characters and meta are in their current state and how to use those tools to overcome things. Wishlists generally talk about a game that doesn't exist. If there becomes a modded Project Marvel version of the game on PC, then a thread can be made for that.

- Game is now 4 attack buttons. Light and heavy punch and light and heavy kick. Back to Marvel 2 with a designated heavy button as a launcher into aerial raves.

- No standard call in the middle of your neutral game assists. Instead there is a tag button and a stone surge button.

- Regular throws (like SFxT yooo Combofriend) now remove the red health from the opponent. Supposedly regular throws are harder to land in this game than they are in Marvel 3 though.

- Free tag system allows you to press the tag button during any attack or move that doesn't cause a cinematic to essentially allow anything to become an "assist". Initial looks at the game may make the neutral seem more "basic" or traditional, but that will change as people learn to use the free tag system with their attacks. Now instead of a character coming in with one preset move to assist you in neutral, the point character can now assist the resting character with virtually any move they have. Want to use Ghost Rider's air chains to help create a long ranged overhead and clear a path for Zero to come in and do more overheads and fish low to open people up? You can do that. Want to use Dr.Strange's bolts to snipe people into a stun and tag into Dante to teleport over and do a combo? You can do that. Wanna use Ryu's DP to stuff Nemesis' long buttons and clear a path for Gamora to tag in? You can do that.

This can also extend to supers. Can use Jedah's buzzsaw super to lock someone down, then tag in the other character and let them get a free mix up after the block stun is over. You can even get really crazy like use the mind stone for infinite super meter, call a couple of Ultron's assists, use his circular projectile to lock them down in block stun, tag in Morrigan, activate astral vision to shoot shit on the screen, then when Ultron is ready again tag back into Ultron and make him flood the screen with more shit.

Just these ideas alone will create a lot of stuff on the screen very regularly and this game will have a lot of happy birthdays due to that. The creativity with what you'll be able to assist your resting character with is about limitless and because of that there will regularly be 3 or all 4 characters on the screen. How this is going to be balanced? Who knows, but that's crack.

-Free tag system makes it so red health can't be depleted on tag in. "Raw" tagging is much more safe and doesn't lead to a red health loss. You can always re tag them back in to recover the red health again. The only way to lose your red health (and you apparently lose all of it) is by getting neutral/regular thrown.

- A character being tagged out that gets hit (similar to assists in Marvel 2 or 3) does not take the heavy damage they used to in those games. They take damage seemingly similar to what the point character takes. This again is done as the game is tailored so both characters will regularly be on the screen and open to attacks.
- The Stone button allows you to use a Surge or V Skill like attack of the gem gem/stone that you chose. Each one has a different attack

Power Surge = Anti air type attack that wall bounces and creates knockdown.
Time Surge = A very quick, but somewhat lengthy to recover teleport.
Space Surge = Maneuver that pulls the opponent towards you. Also has points of armor if the opponent tries to attack you during the pull.
Reality Surge = A slow, homing fireball that dissipates after a certain time. Can tag in to your partner after throwing one to get 2 on screen.
Mind Surge = A command grab like capture move that puts the opponent in a stun state for combos. Damage scaling is pretty heavy.Soul Surge = TBA. Heard that supposedly it is a passive effect that regenerates health over time, but no confirmation.
- The Stone Storm/Infinity Storm is the ability to create a gem based activation/trigger mode that gives your characters access to new tools that aid them in neutral, pressure and combos. These are more standardized from the Marvel Super Heroes ones as they don't change characters' individual special moves into new things, but they can effect the properties of their moves depending on which surge is used. Pressing the tag and stone surge buttons together creates the storm.

Power Infinity Storm = Adds damage and hitstun to all moves. All attacks to tend to shake the screen/create heavy hit stop on hit. Also negates pushblock allowing rushdown or grappler characters to stay in and improve the offense of more defensive characters.

Time Infinity Storm = Makes it so all attacks including specials have little or no recovery. This makes activation supers like Zero's Sogenmu and Morrigan's Astral Vision really cheap as you can just spam their fireballs at a level that surpasses the speed they could even in XF. Morrigan can shoot fireballs to the point where the fireballs are inside of each other coming towards you. How this works with other characters could get pretty scary. Allows rapid fire chains of normals so you can do things like A groove style HPxN. Definitely one of the most dangerous sounding stones especially when combined with a surge that lets you get in for free.

Space Infinity Storm = Has been early regarded as the most dangerous/OP/broken storm. Whether that is true remains to be seen, but there's some good traits to it that gives it a shot. The Space Storm gives you the ability to place the opponent in a literal box. This is beyond even what's seen in other games like Skullgirls or KI where you can shorten the corner. This literally puts the opponent in a box where they can only move seemingly inches forward in any direction and barely jump in the air. The most OP thing about this storm is that it also shuts off the opponent's ability to use the tag system until it is over. Doing things like hitting someone with Morrigan's harmonious spear and then locking them into the box to drain their meter with soul fist combos is a very likely strat.

NOTE: Apparently using cinematic supers temporarily removes the box and you can tag during that point.

Reality Storm = Gives you the ability to control the elements. LP's let you shoot out little wind bolts. HP shoots a huge flame on the screen that cuts off the ceiling and does a lot of block stun. Can use this to trap the opponent in block stun for a later mix up, or place it above their head so they can't use the air to run away. LK shoots out ice that covers the whole floor. Freezes opponent on hit, but they can shake out of the freeze. HK creates a big Captain Corridor like vertical beam.

Mind Storm = Pretty straightforward but potentially very strong. On activation it gives you a bar of meter every seemingly 2 or 3 seconds. Potentially strong with anyone that has a good lockdown super, activation super or a strong level 3. Anyone who has an invincible super will likely be extremely strong with this storm mixed in with tags for safety.

Soul Storm = TBA, but the rumor is it revives your dead character. How much health they get back and if this is true remains to be seen.

- Counter Switch now gives you the ability to break/burst out of combos in Marvel. You simple hold down the tag button for a second or 2 while getting hit to make this work. After Marvel was too cheap to get a combo breaker it is finally here. The only thing is it doesn't really work like a standard burst where it pushes the opponent away with an explosion and the worst happening is a read to block/evade the explosion and punish. This is quite more volatile compared to a traditional burst. Essentially when you use a counter switch all it really seems to do is let you tag in a character while you're getting comboed. Which means you basically don't really have anything going for you other than the character you just swithced into to control to save your other character. Which that character being tagged out is vulnerable for the typical 3 or so seconds and is nothing more than a helpless character. Finding the right time to counter switch will be very important because of you do it wrong your other character can take damage or you can get HBD'd.

There are TWO types of counter switches
Hit/Combo Counter Switch. Hold the tag button down as you're getting hit or in a combo to switch out into another character.
Block Counter Switch. Hold the tag button down as you're blocking an attack or attacks. Creates a crossover counter style tag in after blocking.

- Short hop/aerial direction control. During a super jump you can hold left or right to change where you are in the air. Which means every character has some way of altering how they move in the air. If you immediately press forward or back during a super jump's start up you can do a KOF style short hop. If you press a normal during this you can set up some pretty crazy cross ups and box type movement.

- Flight now requires pressing 2 kicks after the motion to perform. Similar to MVC2.

- Certain characters have down down for DP. These characters AFAIK include Captain America, Dante and Morrigan. Ryu and Dr.Strange have DP motions for their DP specific moves. This is HARD wired and can't be changed in options.

- Advancing guard/pushblock reflect/possible push block guard cancel. Advancing guard generally creates a bit less block stun than in Marvel 3. You can now do a just push block or gold push block to reflect projectiles. Beams, thin gun projectiles like Chris' magnum and super based projectiles seem to be unable to be reflected. Gold push block seems to negate all chip damage from projectiles while regular pushblock does take chip, but very minimal. If you do a gold push block against an attack it supposedly pushes the opponent twice as far away while not pushing you anywhere at all. Giving you a good way to push the opponent off while not pushing yourself into a corner.

- Unblockable Protection/Auto blocking. The game wants to allow you to do cheap things, but it doesn't want to give you quite the room to just faceroll into mix ups like in Marvel 3. You can no longer chain an overhead attack and a low assist on the same frame and get a true unblockable. That now triggers a block stun and stops the unblockable. Can still create a small gap to create a hard to blockable. Can no longer create nearly unblockable mix ups with super/THC style lockdowns. Supers and multi hitting attacks force an auto block until the block stun ends. Luckily since there is no early frame chicken blocking you basically get a free mix up once the block stun ends.

- No more just frame chicken blocking. You can no longer chicken block on frame one to escape attacks and overheads. Jumping forces you to be unable to block for the first few frames until you hit a certain point in the air. This is why the auto blocking during attacks, specials and supers is in so this doesn't get out of hand. It's just once you're out of block stun you're forced to guess block on the ground as taking to the air means you most likely can get hit by even a standard mid hitting attack if you decide to chicken block.

This combined with not being able to chicken block low attacks (which most likely is still in from 3) means being locked down with an attack that has long block stun will be very scary in this game in its own way.

Although as far as the theory and meta will go, there isn't really going to be "less" assists. The assists are just different and are used with the point character rather than an assisting character. A team of Ultron and Hawkeye constantly throwing projectiles and tagging into more projectiles and homing projectile supers and tagging back in is going to fill the screen up with plenty of shit for Haggar to have to Super Mario around. Remember some characters like Ultron have their own assists with just a short start up/recovery animation before the assist comes in. The struggle is most likely just going to be different rather than better.

There's going to be plenty of teams that can flood the screen and tack their projectiles and buttons onto another characters buttons or projectiles. Who you team Haggar with and what gem you put in his hand is going to be the real key, because it's Marvel and the screen will flood.

Something I've been thinking about quite a bit is the burst mechanic (don't know its official name). Let's say for example 100% combos become the norm, then unless someone has the Soul Stone (assuming it does what we think it does) bursting to save your character will be on everyone's radar. If you get hit at the start of the round and get stuck in a 100% combo you're gonna want to burst at any point over two bars, but the player who's doing the combo will obviously be aware of this, as why would you just let your character die? So I think a lot of the meta and mixups are going to be involved in the scramble during a burst attempt as you save your character from dying and try to punish the opponent, or, get baited and get fucked up even more. This is where a lot of the mind games are gonna be at.

This may be stupid and impractical but I was honestly wondering how long Nemesis lvl3 poison lasts, from what we've seen in the videos it goes away when he gets hit. I am not sure what happens to poison if the player tags that said we know players who are in the Space Storm Box cannot tag.

So however dumb and impractical it may, what if you get hit with Nem lvl3 then Nemesis activates Space Storm and you get stuck in box while poisoned? I'm not 100% sure how long the box lasts but I counted like 15 seconds, maybe I'm wrong. Nem lvl3 activate Space Stone then play keep away, 15 seconds of poison, idk.

EDIT: I been thinking about ways to use the poison to his advantage ever since that Max video when it was apparent lvl3 deals poison.

Something I've been thinking about quite a bit is the burst mechanic (don't know its official name). Let's say for example 100% combos become the norm, then unless someone has the Soul Stone (assuming it does what we think it does) bursting to save your character will be on everyone's radar. If you get hit at the start of the round and get stuck in a 100% combo you're gonna want to burst at any point over two bars, but the player who's doing the combo will obviously be aware of this, as why would you just let your character die? So I think a lot of the meta and mixups are going to be involved in the scramble during a burst attempt as you save your character from dying and try to punish the opponent, or, get baited and get fucked up even more. This is where a lot of the mind games are gonna be at.

I'd agree with this, except I don't think 100% TOD combos will be the norm. Not with both damage and guts scaling, on top of undizzy and HSD.

That said, counter switch will still be a factor. Basically, combo optimization will be about trying to get the most damage - about 50-60% - before building them enough meter for counter switch.

This may be stupid and impractical but I was honestly wondering how long Nemesis lvl3 poison lasts, from what we've seen in the videos it goes away when he gets hit. I am not sure what happens to poison if the player tags that said we know players who are in the Space Storm Box cannot tag.

So however dumb and impractical it may, what if you get hit with Nem lvl3 then Nemesis activates Space Storm and you get stuck in box while poisoned? I'm not 100% sure how long the box lasts but I counted like 15 seconds, maybe I'm wrong. Nem lvl3 activate Space Stone then play keep away, 15 seconds of poison, idk.

A powerful setup if you have the meter for it could be, level 3, space storm, then as either the storm or poison is about to run out (does it even run out), get in and use the free level 3 from the storm.

I am thinking the poison may have a time limit that we do not know of yet, most videos the opposing player lands a hit on Nemesis or they straight up die within 3 seconds. If it doesnt have a time limit then Nem lvl3+tag someone who has great mobility and just lame that shit out, dont even need the box.

We do KNOW* even if you are stuck in the box you can shoot projectiles through it, I need to make sure poison doesn't go away if Nem blocks attacks.

EDIT: I just counted 15 mississippi in demo against Ultron Sigma for Space Storm, he had full meter I believe. Olaf Redland says time varies based on meter so 15 is probably max. Actually once they are poisoned and in the box you just need to keep pressure on them from range whether it be spamming rockets forcing them to block or tagging in Morrigan or Hawkeye and projectile spam. They take damage either way whether you hit them or not they're poisoned. They can reflect but you can reflect back, just gotta be ready for that shit. Play a game of pong meanwhile they are poisoned.

With counter switch needing 2 bars, while a nearly optimized combo deals 60-70% I suspect the better point characters will be the ones with anti-rushdown tools. Whether it be good mobility or zoning tools, characters that can stuff early attempts to land a clean hit (and build a little meter along the way) will be the go-to starters. Good secondaries will either be high damage dealers or have layered mixups for after a lockdown tag.

With counter switch needing 2 bars, while a nearly optimized combo deals 60-70% I suspect the better point characters will be the ones with anti-rushdown tools. Whether it be good mobility or zoning tools, characters that can stuff early attempts to land a clean hit (and build a little meter along the way) will be the go-to starters. Good secondaries will either be high damage dealers or have layered mixups for after a lockdown tag.

Something I've been thinking about quite a bit is the burst mechanic (don't know its official name). Let's say for example 100% combos become the norm, then unless someone has the Soul Stone (assuming it does what we think it does) bursting to save your character will be on everyone's radar. If you get hit at the start of the round and get stuck in a 100% combo you're gonna want to burst at any point over two bars, but the player who's doing the combo will obviously be aware of this, as why would you just let your character die? So I think a lot of the meta and mixups are going to be involved in the scramble during a burst attempt as you save your character from dying and try to punish the opponent, or, get baited and get fucked up even more. This is where a lot of the mind games are gonna be at.

You can definitely bait this,

Possibly the worst burst mechanic I've seen and that's perfect as I didn't even want it

Maybe. Zero and X both look strong, but imo they don't look too much stronger than the rest. The beauty about this game is that the position you're stronger in doesn't matter that much, since tags will be frequent. Every character will be on point eventually, so before this game becomes super optimized any good point character should work on any team. I think a big factor to consider when looking for the "god tier" of the game is how many stones a given character can be busted with. The more stones they can use, the more teams they can work on and the more playstyles they can support.

Maybe. Zero and X both look strong, but imo they don't look too much stronger than the rest. The beauty about this game is that the position you're stronger in doesn't matter that much, since tags will be frequent. Every character will be on point eventually, so before this game becomes super optimized any good point character should work on any team. I think a big factor to consider when looking for the "god tier" of the game is how many stones a given character can be busted with. The more stones they can use, the more teams they can work on and the more playstyles they can support.

There will likely also be A groove Bisons and Saks that are good in other gems and busted specifically with a certain gem.

I wouldn't call the "60%-70% combos" we're looking at optimised, they are pre day one combos, the most basic semi creative shit we can do. No-one fully understands the combo system nor the system mechanics. Even regardless of that, all it takes is one reset and you're done, so that first hit is still going to be crucial and players will constantly be faced with the dilemma of keeping a character or killing them off. The benefit to it would be getting the Infinity Storm, but whether that's enough to face two characters without resurrection is the big question. I think burst is going to be one of the biggest tactical scrambles in the meta, outside of runaway and keepaway.

We don't know everything about the combo system, but we can assume some things given the nature of fighting games and what we've seen/heard. The damage seems to scale pretty hard, so after a certain point extending a combo only serves to gain meter/positioning. Combofiend also explicitly stated in an interview that starting a combo with light normals are a sure fire way to scale a combo fast, so we can assume the more heavies/specials the better. Based on these things alone, I don't expect it to take very long to discover optimal combo damage for most characters. This game might redefine the term "optimal" to refer to positioning instead of damage due to how fast combos seem to scale. It will probably be more worth it to do a less damaging combo that corner carries than one that gets that extra 5-10% damage. If you're going to need a reset anyway, might as well plan for it.

Lights scaling hard is something people wanted from Marvel 3. People hated how you could do 5 Ls in that game and get enough meter and enough leeway in the HSD and damage scaling to convert into a dead character. Most anime games like Guilty Gear generally follow this path where you have to start with something heavier to get more damage.

Learning combos that are good to bait counter switches at a certain point will also be important.

I saw this odd interaction between Zero and another character that caused a wall bounce and I thought it was a counter hit, but Zero used buster so I assume that wall bounce is busters new property as opposed to juggle reel as it was in MvC3. Not quite as broken as it was.

He does actually. It's a super. Capcom seems to be pushing Nova as the Mags replacement, but Ryu may finally end up being a good measure of honesty in the game. Normally, honesty and Marvel don't go in the same sentence, but Ryu seems to have all the tools he needs to be useful while not having anything dirty or gimmicky at the same time. Curious to see if players can use him to beat some of the more oppressive characters using only fundamentals. That would be pretty sick in it's own right.

I wouldn't call the "60%-70% combos" we're looking at optimised, they are pre day one combos, the most basic semi creative shit we can do. No-one fully understands the combo system nor the system mechanics. Even regardless of that, all it takes is one reset and you're done, so that first hit is still going to be crucial and players will constantly be faced with the dilemma of keeping a character or killing them off. The benefit to it would be getting the Infinity Storm, but whether that's enough to face two characters without resurrection is the big question. I think burst is going to be one of the biggest tactical scrambles in the meta, outside of runaway and keepaway.

The thing we need to consider is damage scaling. By the time most of these combos have done 60%, scaling is so harsh that the stuff at the end does miniscule damage. And that's before guts scaling (something 3 didn't have) which takes it down even more. Combined, combos end up doing nearly less then half damage in once they get past a certain point. Even if you reset at 50% into the same combo, you're not doing another 50% again.

All of these systems together means the game will be pretty damn reset heavy. You're going to have to be even more reset minded when the opponent's health is lower. I guess that's why Sonicfox called Yipes out saying he won't be able to handle him in Infinite because the game is more reset heavy. Funny thing is I'm sure Yipes knows a thing or 2 about resets also.

Maybe there's extra damage proration when you tag someone in, even when just starting a combo?

Honestly, it feels way too early to make assumptions.

Could be guts, could be like inUMVC3 where there was no defense boost, but there was like a hidden segment to the life bar. Could be extra proration with different starters. Strider and X could have vastly different life.

We don't know if the damage scaling is per hit like in mvc3 or per move like in sf4/5 either or if different normals/specials scale at different rates.