it really is hard to beat the accuracy vs price ratio of a half decent stock barrel too.

IMO this shows pretty commandingly the idea that the hammerhead rifling or porting puts predictable and consistent spin on the paintball to be not true. as such, the barrel performs the same as every other barrel on the range - because it does the same thing as every other barrel.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

IMO this shows pretty commandingly the idea that the hammerhead rifling or porting puts predictable and consistent spin on the paintball to be not true. as such, the barrel performs the same as every other barrel on the range - because it does the same thing as every other barrel.

So, question: are you guys ever going to outright say that certain products are complete bullshit and that their claims warrant a false-advertising lawsuit? 'Cause, I mean...if you've got the science to back it up, a lawsuit or two might go a long way to fund future Punkworks projects. Y'know? Also, think about how much money Hammerhead is basically stealing from our oblivious community? Especially now that they've formally partnered with Tippmann. You say the word "rifling" to a mil-sim woodsballer with a Tippmann, and of course they're gonna drop that extra coin.

Tom Kaye said, when he stepped down: "To all of the players I want you to remember that its YOU who control this game and this industry. Treat it wisely and vote with your dollars so your kids can play along side you some day." This is the spirit. We do self-defense. We arm ourselves with information and reject companies bullshitting us. We will not be a new lawsuit-monger, bombarding companies out of business. But we will make people aware of the bullshit they are receiving - and let them decide if they want to swallow the crap or not.

Tom Kaye said, when he stepped down: "To all of the players I want you to remember that its YOU who control this game and this industry. Treat it wisely and vote with your dollars so your kids can play along side you some day." This is the spirit. We do self-defense. We arm ourselves with information and reject companies bullshitting us. We will not be a new lawsuit-monger, bombarding companies out of business. But we will make people aware of the bullshit they are receiving - and let them decide if they want to swallow the crap or not.

IMO this shows pretty commandingly the idea that the hammerhead rifling or porting puts predictable and consistent spin on the paintball to be not true. as such, the barrel performs the same as every other barrel on the range - because it does the same thing as every other barrel.

So, question: are you guys ever going to outright say that certain products are complete bullshit and that their claims warrant a false-advertising lawsuit? 'Cause, I mean...if you've got the science to back it up, a lawsuit or two might go a long way to fund future Punkworks projects. Y'know? Also, think about how much money Hammerhead is basically stealing from our oblivious community? Especially now that they've formally partnered with Tippmann. You say the word "rifling" to a mil-sim woodsballer with a Tippmann, and of course they're gonna drop that extra coin.

It doesn't seem right to let that stand.

I think the correct tack is to be as neutral as possible. Present the information, leave the demagoguery to Mike et al.

I will answer questions honestly, I'll most likely drop a video of what I think later - but no, I have no reason to turn my life into a set of attacks on people. I've talked to Robert and Paul at Hammerhead - they're nice people. We just don't see the kind of performance they claim to have seen with their product. I have no dog in this fight - I'm acting as a neutral party. The minute I start to attack companies - that's when I've taken a side.

If I'm looking to disprove things - that means I would have already made up my mind about how the test results will come out - and believe me, that's the last thing I want to do. I was simply shooting the barrles and noting velocity. Gordon was simply noting impact point - there was no bias and I stand by our test.

In order to be able to continue to do this testing - we HAVE to stay impartial.

Now, does that mean we'll go easy on any company who is making claims we can't verify? No. There is a huge pile of money waiting for the company who can produce the product that does something different. We're here to make sure that when you choose to put that money in their hands - it's for a good reason.

There isnt much room to on that spin test video to really determine, in my opinion. If at all possible, can you set the camera up so that you are firing the balls over the camera, towards the white foam?

I will laugh as they overwhelm our enemies in a flurry of spotted banana hammocks.

There isnt much room to on that spin test video to really determine, in my opinion. If at all possible, can you set the camera up so that you are firing the balls over the camera, towards the white foam?

if you watch the high speed test on the apex, or you say count frames and know the velocity (which you do) you end up computing that the paintball is in frame and in focus for over 4 feet in most cases. if the rifling works, it should spin the paintball axially something like 2 revolutions in that case.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

There was enough footage to determine that even when there did appear to be a nonzero spin, it was of a small magnitude and was not consistent.

Furthermore, the accuracy test suggests there is no funny business going on (not to mention that one wouldn't expect axial spins to affect sphere accuracy from a theoretical standpoint)

exactly.

when i shot the apex, every single shot looked almost identical, all with wicked spin, in the same direction and of similar magnitude. i merely had to find a shot that was very nicely in focus to put in the video. i shot the apex over 40 times under the camera, and there was not a single shot that didn't spin a substantial, and predictable and repeatable way.

on this test i saw nothing more then the slight spins that you can also observe with smooth barrels. yes, even smooth barrels have some spin, nothing large, and nothing predictable or repeatable, but there is some spin. an NO spin the "axial" direction, as rifling should produce.

idk, the idea that the hammer head puts spin on paintballs is pretty debunked IMO. but that doesn't mean rifling can't put spin on the ball. with a small bore barrel with rifling that really grabs the paintball, i bet you could do it. now, as snipez pointed out, its debatable whether that will actually help anything or not.

Edited by cockerpunk, 26 June 2009 - 08:24 AM.

The ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

Indeed. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. Should a company promote a product with a claim behind it, it's only fair to present some standard of reasonable evidence. What's being done is that the claim is being tested with a certain level of experimental controls, and done in a repeatable process. The results are published (for lack of a better word), and I'm sure anyone is free to independently test and verify the results.

Seems that here, there was a claim that couldn't be supported by any evidence.

Good job guys. Looks like we're finally getting some data on this topic beyond HH itself.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying that "x-product does not work." That's far from saying "don't buy x-product" because you're simply commenting on their claims. If people want an aftermarket product, you're advising them not to get it. It's more of a standpoint of an observer than a policeman.

beforehand, i had found the ti-barrels (titanium paintball's longbow barrels) to be the most accurate blah blah, and i always thought about somehow slapping a mofo tip on it instead of the ti-tip (its a little heavy). WHAT ARE THE ODDS that the threads on my ti-back would be the exact same as the threads HH uses? IK...any way i compared my ti barrel (great barrels) down field at dday and it wasnt too bad, but then i put tho mofo on it and it was most definitely more consistent: it was noticable to say the least. maybe if PW tested this at longer distances there would be some sort of trend?

beforehand, i had found the ti-barrels (titanium paintball's longbow barrels) to be the most accurate blah blah, and i always thought about somehow slapping a mofo tip on it instead of the ti-tip (its a little heavy). WHAT ARE THE ODDS that the threads on my ti-back would be the exact same as the threads HH uses? IK...any way i compared my ti barrel (great barrels) down field at dday and it wasnt too bad, but then i put tho mofo on it and it was most definitely more consistent: it was noticable to say the least. maybe if PW tested this at longer distances there would be some sort of trend?

we tested at 150 feet. That's very long range for paintballs. While people can lob paint another 100' or so beyond that - it's certainly outside of a range where you can consistently put paint on a person. testing beyond that is starting to get silly. That's like telling us that we need to test the new tires on my ford ranger at 100 miles an hour - so that we can see the difference. Sure, the car will go that fast - but it certainly doesn't like to, and if the only performance benefits are found outside of normal usage conditions - then those benefits aren't very useful in the real world.

There was enough footage to determine that even when there did appear to be a nonzero spin, it was of a small magnitude and was not consistent.

Furthermore, the accuracy test suggests there is no funny business going on (not to mention that one wouldn't expect axial spins to affect sphere accuracy from a theoretical standpoint)

exactly.

when i shot the apex, every single shot looked almost identical, all with wicked spin, in the same direction and of similar magnitude. i merely had to find a shot that was very nicely in focus to put in the video. i shot the apex over 40 times under the camera, and there was not a single shot that didn't spin a substantial, and predictable and repeatable way.

on this test i saw nothing more then the slight spins that you can also observe with smooth barrels. yes, even smooth barrels have some spin, nothing large, and nothing predictable or repeatable, but there is some spin. an NO spin the "axial" direction, as rifling should produce.

idk, the idea that the hammer head puts spin on paintballs is pretty debunked IMO. but that doesn't mean rifling can't put spin on the ball. with a small bore barrel with rifling that really grabs the paintball, i bet you could do it. now, as snipez pointed out, its debatable whether that will actually help anything or not.

In order to grip the paintball enough to put a rifle-esque spin on it the entire barrel would have to be in constant contact until it left the barrel. currently the riffled barrel could produce the desired spin, but only if everything was sized exactly right, and paint just isn't consistent enough to machine a corrisponding riffled barrel. I figure, if you want supreme accuracy, go with a first strike round, thats the only mod that seems to actually work in terms of Axial paint spin.

So what does RIFLING actually do? Does this prove that Rifling does not work as advertised?

We haven't found that rifling has any effect on paintballs. We've now tested the Empire Twister, the Armson rifled, the Bang Stikxx and the Mofo. None of them did anything different from any other barrel we've tested.

Even the vid on their (HH) site doesn't really show anything. At the very beginning it looks like it is actually a back spin, then a "quick" 180 right spin and "stalls" with a little wobble/slow right hand spin.

The first time I ever experienced rifling was with my Armson barrel back in 1992. I never found "rifling" in a paintball barrel, whether "straight rifling", or "rifle rifling" to have any more accuracy or better range than any other decent barrel on the market

From my experience, it made it worse in many cases.

Now, I'm not saying that rifled barrels are bad products. Marketing and hype play a HUGE role in how players perceive the performance of their gun. I had to head the whole "flatter trajectory" bullshit for YEARS and YEARS knowing damn well it was complete nonsense.

I think it's great that we compare these barrels to the "standard" which is in my opinion, the CP Classic. I seriously think you'll have to look extremely hard to find a barrel that's considerably more accurate than the $30 barrel they sell....

I think it's great that we compare these barrels to the "standard" which is in my opinion, the CP Classic. I seriously think you'll have to look extremely hard to find a barrel that's considerably more accurate than the $30 barrel they sell....

We have really come to consider the 14" CP 685 the standard by with all should be judged. $30, light enough, shoot as well as any barrel on the market. it's a great piece of equipment. We haven't found ANY barrel more accurate.

Boy this makes me glad I didn't have the funds for one on my tax return......

"Just remember kiddies: Cheaters don't just suck, they also swallow too!"-Tyger"A Player's Personal Preference is what determines what he/she wants on a Marker, not what other people think that the Player should have on the marker." EvilFingersSupport Grassroots

Oh no, Bryce, I wasn't doubting the fact that you could get a .685 through a .679. I'd just never heard of that until now. In fact, I'm just watching your "what we know about barrels" video now, and I'm learning a lot that could've answered my questions here.

Do you guys have a conclusion on why your the underbored/overbored barrels didn't do as well as the correctly bored barrel? According to the video underbore/overbore should be more accurate, right? Does it have to do with the quality of porting?

And I was actually talking to guys on A5OG about whether or not the Hammerhead is rifled all the way through/same diameter. So it's not? Or does the rifling/consistent diameter just end near the end of the barrel? And why should it matter if the front of the barrel is .700?

Do you think that the Hammerhead suffers in accuracy behind the CP 14" because you can't get the same quality of finish on a barrel with lands and grooves as you can on a barrel that's just polished?