Is it just me, or do teams that go deep into the playoffs not do so because of good defense, but because of good defense and a strong defensive forwards? I mean Lidstrom and Scott Niedermayer are the only two D men to win the Conn Smythe in the last 10 years and that was for their offense. Whereas a lot of the forwards who have won it have been defensively minded in their series (think Z, Toews, Richards - again thinking last 10 years). I mean more Goaltenders have won it that defensemen. I understand good D is still vital (that goal for NSH this year still haunts my thoughts... just watching all 3 players follow the puck... oh goodness) but if we get a good solid defensive structure and the players get some confidence in them going into the playoffs, does anything still think we could steal a round or two by having players like Z, or Dats, or Helm, or Flip, Abby, etc playing strong on D as well?

That and Jimmy keeping this season's early numbers rolling all year. Just looking for some positivity as I think we still have the best group of 2-way forwards in this league

Is it just me, or do teams that go deep into the playoffs not do so because of good defense, but because of good defense and a strong defensive forwards? I mean Lidstrom and Scott Niedermayer are the only two D men to win the Conn Smythe in the last 10 years and that was for their offense. Whereas a lot of the forwards who have won it have been defensively minded in their series (think Z, Toews, Richards - again thinking last 10 years). I mean more Goaltenders have won it that defensemen. I understand good D is still vital (that goal for NSH this year still haunts my thoughts... just watching all 3 players follow the puck... oh goodness) but if we get a good solid defensive structure and the players get some confidence in them going into the playoffs, does anything still think we could steal a round or two by having players like Z, or Dats, or Helm, or Flip, Abby, etc playing strong on D as well?

That and Jimmy keeping this season's early numbers rolling all year. Just looking for some positivity as I think we still have the best group of 2-way forwards in this league

I think the Conn Smyth is a bit of a tricky trophy. The easiest way for the masses (fans, media etc.) to notice a defenseman playing well in the SC finals is for that player to put up points. People have long said that Lidstrom was at his best when you didn't even notice him out there on the ice. I think that statement is generally true for defenseman (unless they are purely offensive d-men). You'll never see completely stay at home d-men win the Conn Smyth because it's not flashy. Goaltenders are in the spot light when they make huge saves. Forwards are in the spot light when they not only shut down opposing players but put up points themselves. I think the trend of not seeing too many d-men win the CS is more a product of the way the game is viewed, not player.

We're so bad that even Crymson and Nightfall probably believe deep down that we'll miss the playoffs.

- good luck in getting either of them to admit it.

Seriously, I keep saying this, it seems there is no middle ground here... its either 'the Wings are fine and they will win forever and ever and ever' or 'The Wings better start scouting the top draft candidates now, because they are a lottery team'. This team is clearly a bubble team as it stands right now, its neither good enough to be considered elite nor bad enough to be considered a bottom feeder. As I said in other threads, I am afraid this team will become like Calgary, coming up a little short, not making it in the playoffs, or getting bounced early, and the management never seeing the forest for the trees and addressing the problems because they are always 'that close' to being there.

Agreed.

Right now I feel the Wings are a team that can finish anywhere from 7th to 10th in the Western Conference.

I think the Conn Smyth is a bit of a tricky trophy. The easiest way for the masses (fans, media etc.) to notice a defenseman playing well in the SC finals is for that player to put up points. People have long said that Lidstrom was at his best when you didn't even notice him out there on the ice. I think that statement is generally true for defenseman (unless they are purely offensive d-men). You'll never see completely stay at home d-men win the Conn Smyth because it's not flashy. Goaltenders are in the spot light when they make huge saves. Forwards are in the spot light when they not only shut down opposing players but put up points themselves. I think the trend of not seeing too many d-men win the CS is more a product of the way the game is viewed, not player.

Yeah I get what you mean. But consider more 2 way forwards winning it in the last 10 years than scorers (Malkin being the only real winner who purely scored arguably), do you think a forward focusing on D is the most important thing in a playoff series? Because like I said we're still probably the best with 2 way depth. We just need our defense to play strong and sensible and limit errors mainly I'd say, and we could still be OK. Not saying we're 'contenders' like we've been in the past, but really don't think it's all doom and gloom like we're going to completely miss out. There are occasions where we can practically put out 5 guys who can all play D. Which I think is still pretty darn good.

Right now I feel the Wings are a team that can finish anywhere from 7th to 10th in the Western Conference.

This is how I feel, basically. I said in the other thread that I thought we were "comfortably mediocre", meaning we weren't going to be #1, but we weren't going to be dead last either. I think for this team as presently constructed to make the playoffs and stay in the playoffs, they're going to have to overperform, and I don't know if they can.

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." -- The Doctor

Your position seems to be that unless someone can provide concrete examples of players that were available, trades that almost definitely would go through, and would almost certainly improve the team, they shouldn't complain.

This is not true. The fellow said he had examples. I'm only asking him to share them.

Whatever the case, there are a very limited number of defensemen who could be suitable replacements for Lidstrom. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for one to name whom they feel would have been plausible pick-ups for this purpose.

It's likely you would've shot down all of those trades as unrealistic or wouldn't improve the team.

I don't think it's fair to conclude that. I can't know what I would think of them if I haven't heard them.

If I could provide those kind of examples beforehand, I'd take Holland's friggin job. I'm not complaining because I think he sucks. I'm complaining because I think he's one of the best GM's in the NHL, so he better be able to come up with some moves that the average fan couldn't know about.

This is a discussion forum. If we were all content to simply sit and watch, we wouldn't be discussing anything. As is, possible scenarios are discussed on an daily basis here.

Your position seems to be that if Holland made the move, it was the right one. If he didn't, it wouldn't have made the team better or it would've cost too much. The only thing I've heard you complain about regarding Holland was Ericsson, which you were wrong about.

That's not my position at all. I do realize that I spend a lot of time defending Holland on here, but that doesn't mean that I believe he's perfect. I simply believe that he's one of the best out there and should not be called an atrocious factor for the Wings, particularly over the matters that aren't reasonably within his control. I certainly feel that he has made mistakes. The 2009 offseason very much stands out in that category.

Alright, so I've been thinking about this, because much like the majority of fans on here I've been anxiously awaiting some exciting news. If you take a step back and look at what we've already got to work with, it's really not as bad as some are making it out to be. Perhaps after a few boring off-seasons we were all just itching for some big splash - something exciting, not necessarily because we needed it, but because we'd kinda earned it.

There's no denying the fact that we are weaker on D than we were last year. Suter or no Suter, this was inevitable - Lidstrom alone makes this so. Stuart, as much as some liked to bash him, was great and will be missed. This only adds another large hole in our defense. We could use one more depth defenseman especially given the departure of both Exelby and Janik. Now that they are gone, if there is an injury, which there almost always is, we really have nobody to call up. As sickening as it is to even say it - someone as crappy as Lebda would suffice as his only purpose would be 'bandage.' Luckily we still have a few viable options via free agency, not to mention the fact that we have WAY too many forwards and will likely trade a few for something. If that something isn't picks, it should be a depth defenceman.

I see a lot of complaining regarding Quincey and Smith. Yes, Q was not what we'd expected after the trade deadline, but keep in mind he was really good in Colorado and we were all a bit sour over losing him. He is better than he showed, and perhaps it was merely the adjustment from one team to another. I would expect an impressive effort from him this season and I feel that our first round pick was most certainly not wasted. Smith - what can be said about the kid? He is our best prospect, and our prospect pool is pretty damn decent. Rated as high as 4th was it? If teams like Philly can just throw their underripe prospects into the roster and see results, I would expect good things. I already liked what I saw last year and I, like many, didn't want to see him sent back down. Did these two fill the gaps left by both Lidstrom and Stuart? Of course not. Will they keep our team competitive? Bet your ass they will.

As far as forwards go... well, we may not have acquired any flashy free agents, but our team has improved. We lost Hudler - Jiri Hudler. With the exception of Eva and maybe two other people, he will not be missed very much. He wasn't as bad as we made him out to be, but there's the whole KHL thing, and oh yeah he's the smallest guy on the team. Sammy will not only replace the offence Hudler took with him, but will bring size and grit. Judging by about half of the rosters I see from various posters, it seems most of us have forgotten about the acquisition of Damien Brunner. He was the winger version of Schultz, and nobody really gave two craps when we learned of his interest in Detroit. He is a gamble, but then again so is Alex Semin. He could very well out score Hudler, and although unlikely, score more goals than Parise, who was signed for like 6 million more than Brunner. We don't know how well his game will translate into the NHL, but the potential is there, and that, to me, is as exciting a signing as any. We also have Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo may have inadvertently caused the death of miscellaneous computer hardware by signing here, but he will also cause death to those who f*** with our young guys, which is my next point.

We need to give our young prospects a shot in the NHL. There's a reason why most of you wouldn't want Nyquist included in a trade; He is the real deal. I don't understand how we can discourage trading them for proven players such as Nash or Ryan, yet be perfectly content with letting them rot in the AHL while we sign DOAN or whoever else. Doan is great, but he is old and he is not ours. For every Mueller, Prust or Doan we sign, a prospect loses his wings. For another season at least... Babcock guaranteed Brunner a spot. Tootoo is not sitting out at that salary, and neither will Samuelsson. We already have too many forwards, so as far as Doan and Semin go, we really don't need them. Nyquist is ready for the NHL and he will only become as great as he has been projected to be if we give him the chance.

Our team may not be stacked, but it will make the playoffs. We lost out on the Thunder Buddy sweepstakes, but we landed Brunner. This will be an exciting season and it could be full of pleasant surprises which will benefit our team in the long run. All we need is more depth on the back end and Holland will address this. The sky is not falling.

Again, this is all well and good, but, still way too many "IFS" for it to be anything more than a very optimistic assessment of the team. There is a real possibility this team finishes on the outside looking in, as I keep explaining, they are not a lock for the playoffs, just like they are not a lock for missing them.

Alright, so I've been thinking about this, because much like the majority of fans on here I've been anxiously awaiting some exciting news. If you take a step back and look at what we've already got to work with, it's really not as bad as some are making it out to be. Perhaps after a few boring off-seasons we were all just itching for some big splash - something exciting, not necessarily because we needed it, but because we'd kinda earned it.

There's no denying the fact that we are weaker on D than we were last year. Suter or no Suter, this was inevitable - Lidstrom alone makes this so. Stuart, as much as some liked to bash him, was great and will be missed. This only adds another large hole in our defense. We could use one more depth defenseman especially given the departure of both Exelby and Janik. Now that they are gone, if there is an injury, which there almost always is, we really have nobody to call up. As sickening as it is to even say it - someone as crappy as Lebda would suffice as his only purpose would be 'bandage.' Luckily we still have a few viable options via free agency, not to mention the fact that we have WAY too many forwards and will likely trade a few for something. If that something isn't picks, it should be a depth defenceman.

I see a lot of complaining regarding Quincey and Smith. Yes, Q was not what we'd expected after the trade deadline, but keep in mind he was really good in Colorado and we were all a bit sour over losing him. He is better than he showed, and perhaps it was merely the adjustment from one team to another. I would expect an impressive effort from him this season and I feel that our first round pick was most certainly not wasted. Smith - what can be said about the kid? He is our best prospect, and our prospect pool is pretty damn decent. Rated as high as 4th was it? If teams like Philly can just throw their underripe prospects into the roster and see results, I would expect good things. I already liked what I saw last year and I, like many, didn't want to see him sent back down. Did these two fill the gaps left by both Lidstrom and Stuart? Of course not. Will they keep our team competitive? Bet your ass they will.

As far as forwards go... well, we may not have acquired any flashy free agents, but our team has improved. We lost Hudler - Jiri Hudler. With the exception of Eva and maybe two other people, he will not be missed very much. He wasn't as bad as we made him out to be, but there's the whole KHL thing, and oh yeah he's the smallest guy on the team. Sammy will not only replace the offence Hudler took with him, but will bring size and grit. Judging by about half of the rosters I see from various posters, it seems most of us have forgotten about the acquisition of Damien Brunner. He was the winger version of Schultz, and nobody really gave two craps when we learned of his interest in Detroit. He is a gamble, but then again so is Alex Semin. He could very well out score Hudler, and although unlikely, score more goals than Parise, who was signed for like 6 million more than Brunner. We don't know how well his game will translate into the NHL, but the potential is there, and that, to me, is as exciting a signing as any. We also have Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo may have inadvertently caused the death of miscellaneous computer hardware by signing here, but he will also cause death to those who f*** with our young guys, which is my next point.

We need to give our young prospects a shot in the NHL. There's a reason why most of you wouldn't want Nyquist included in a trade; He is the real deal. I don't understand how we can discourage trading them for proven players such as Nash or Ryan, yet be perfectly content with letting them rot in the AHL while we sign DOAN or whoever else. Doan is great, but he is old and he is not ours. For every Mueller, Prust or Doan we sign, a prospect loses his wings. For another season at least... Babcock guaranteed Brunner a spot. Tootoo is not sitting out at that salary, and neither will Samuelsson. We already have too many forwards, so as far as Doan and Semin go, we really don't need them. Nyquist is ready for the NHL and he will only become as great as he has been projected to be if we give him the chance.

Our team may not be stacked, but it will make the playoffs. We lost out on the Thunder Buddy sweepstakes, but we landed Brunner. This will be an exciting season and it could be full of pleasant surprises which will benefit our team in the long run. All we need is more depth on the back end and Holland will address this. The sky is not falling.

This is not true. The fellow said he had examples. I'm only asking him to share them.

Whatever the case, there are a very limited number of defensemen who could be suitable replacements for Lidstrom. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for one to name whom they feel would have been plausible pick-ups for this purpose.

That misrepresents people's arguments here, which has the not-unintended effect of making their position even more difficult to prove. Replacing Lidstrom is pretty much impossible. I don't think anyone expected Holland to go out and replace one of the best D-men who's ever played the game. Even getting Suter wouldn't have done that. But that's not the same as saying he could do more to improve the defense and could have better prepared for Lidstrom's eventual retirement.

And you may not think it's an unreasonable request, but the reality is it's awfully difficult to prove something that didn't happen. Which not coincidentally also puts you in a pretty advantageous position to argue from. You get to defend what actually happened but expect someone to build a concrete case for some hypothetical alternative that was both possible and would improve the team. It's like if the Wings lost a game and someone here was complaining about their effort, expecting them to name a shot that someone could have taken that almost certainly would have scored.

I don't think it's fair to conclude that. I can't know what I would think of them if I haven't heard them.

True. I was just making an educated guess based on every response you've ever had to someone proposing a move that Holland could have made.

This is a discussion forum. If we were all content to simply sit and watch, we wouldn't be discussing anything. As is, possible scenarios are discussed on an daily basis here.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the portion of my post you quoted or why you feel the need to inform a moderator here as to what the purpose of this board is.

It's a point you should take to heart though. As you make the obvious point, this is a hockey discussion board. So people will come here to express their displeasure with Holland if they feel like it. That makes perfect sense to me, even if I don't agree with them. They dont' have to construct an argument that meets your standards in order to be able to criticize Holland, or anyone on the Wings for that matter.

That's not my position at all. I do realize that I spend a lot of time defending Holland on here, but that doesn't mean that I believe he's perfect. I simply believe that he's one of the best out there and should not be called an atrocious factor for the Wings, particularly over the matters that aren't reasonably within his control. I certainly feel that he has made mistakes. The 2009 offseason very much stands out in that category.

As for Ericsson, I still don't like how the guy plays.

What should Holland have done in 2009? Who should he have signed? Using 2009, you could set an example here to show others how to properly build a case for criticizing Holland.

As for Ericsson, considering he was drafted dead last and a converted defenseman, I would've thought you'd consider him one of Holland's greater successes. Ericsson was among the better d-men this season, especially in the playoffs. Holland took a player who was basically an afterthought and now has a #4/5 D-man who can play 18+ minutes a night.

Alright, so I've been thinking about this, because much like the majority of fans on here I've been anxiously awaiting some exciting news. If you take a step back and look at what we've already got to work with, it's really not as bad as some are making it out to be. Perhaps after a few boring off-seasons we were all just itching for some big splash - something exciting, not necessarily because we needed it, but because we'd kinda earned it.

There's no denying the fact that we are weaker on D than we were last year. Suter or no Suter, this was inevitable - Lidstrom alone makes this so. Stuart, as much as some liked to bash him, was great and will be missed. This only adds another large hole in our defense. We could use one more depth defenseman especially given the departure of both Exelby and Janik. Now that they are gone, if there is an injury, which there almost always is, we really have nobody to call up. As sickening as it is to even say it - someone as crappy as Lebda would suffice as his only purpose would be 'bandage.' Luckily we still have a few viable options via free agency, not to mention the fact that we have WAY too many forwards and will likely trade a few for something. If that something isn't picks, it should be a depth defenceman.

I see a lot of complaining regarding Quincey and Smith. Yes, Q was not what we'd expected after the trade deadline, but keep in mind he was really good in Colorado and we were all a bit sour over losing him. He is better than he showed, and perhaps it was merely the adjustment from one team to another. I would expect an impressive effort from him this season and I feel that our first round pick was most certainly not wasted. Smith - what can be said about the kid? He is our best prospect, and our prospect pool is pretty damn decent. Rated as high as 4th was it? If teams like Philly can just throw their underripe prospects into the roster and see results, I would expect good things. I already liked what I saw last year and I, like many, didn't want to see him sent back down. Did these two fill the gaps left by both Lidstrom and Stuart? Of course not. Will they keep our team competitive? Bet your ass they will.

As far as forwards go... well, we may not have acquired any flashy free agents, but our team has improved. We lost Hudler - Jiri Hudler. With the exception of Eva and maybe two other people, he will not be missed very much. He wasn't as bad as we made him out to be, but there's the whole KHL thing, and oh yeah he's the smallest guy on the team. Sammy will not only replace the offence Hudler took with him, but will bring size and grit. Judging by about half of the rosters I see from various posters, it seems most of us have forgotten about the acquisition of Damien Brunner. He was the winger version of Schultz, and nobody really gave two craps when we learned of his interest in Detroit. He is a gamble, but then again so is Alex Semin. He could very well out score Hudler, and although unlikely, score more goals than Parise, who was signed for like 6 million more than Brunner. We don't know how well his game will translate into the NHL, but the potential is there, and that, to me, is as exciting a signing as any. We also have Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo may have inadvertently caused the death of miscellaneous computer hardware by signing here, but he will also cause death to those who f*** with our young guys, which is my next point.

We need to give our young prospects a shot in the NHL. There's a reason why most of you wouldn't want Nyquist included in a trade; He is the real deal. I don't understand how we can discourage trading them for proven players such as Nash or Ryan, yet be perfectly content with letting them rot in the AHL while we sign DOAN or whoever else. Doan is great, but he is old and he is not ours. For every Mueller, Prust or Doan we sign, a prospect loses his wings. For another season at least... Babcock guaranteed Brunner a spot. Tootoo is not sitting out at that salary, and neither will Samuelsson. We already have too many forwards, so as far as Doan and Semin go, we really don't need them. Nyquist is ready for the NHL and he will only become as great as he has been projected to be if we give him the chance.

Our team may not be stacked, but it will make the playoffs. We lost out on the Thunder Buddy sweepstakes, but we landed Brunner. This will be an exciting season and it could be full of pleasant surprises which will benefit our team in the long run. All we need is more depth on the back end and Holland will address this. The sky is not falling.

As for Ericsson, considering he was drafted dead last and a converted defenseman, I would've thought you'd consider him one of Holland's greater successes. Ericsson was among the better d-men this season, especially in the playoffs. Holland took a player who was basically an afterthought and now has a #4/5 D-man who can play 18+ minutes a night.

If I wasn't so enamored with my current sig, I'd have found a new one right here.

E came out of nowhere, wowed us, and then became normal for a guy of his age and experience. I have faith that he will grow as he is given more responsibility and gets more experience, but even if he doesn't, he is still servicable.

I keep seeing Brunner's name all over LGW and some place him in the top 6 even. I admit that I had never heard of the guy until he was signed, but I'm still confident that he will have a hard time cracking the roster, let alone play top 6 minutes.

He might have been the top scorer in the Swiss league and all, but frankly that doesn't compare to the NHL by any means. For example one look at Brunner's teammates this past season will show that NHL familiar's Josh Holden and Glen Metropolit posted similar numbers as Brunner over the past three seasons. Granted, Brunner is a lot younger, but still I think it says something as Holden struggled to crack the NHL rosters, while Metropolit was a journeyman good for about 30 points with the Bruins, the Thrashers and the Canadians.

I would be surprised if Brunner did not spend most of the season in GR.

You are spot on Barnes... His time may be limited and will be brought up from GR at times... He needs to get use to playing is NA first and transitioned.

I'd like to remind everyone that we have a surplus of Forward's at the moment so we need to remember that it is possible that Kenny could use one as trade-bait to get some depth. BTW can any of our current prospects become the 7th guy or would we be better off looking in FA?

I'm going to try and paste this article in it's entirety because ESPN's dumbass "insider" crap won't allow most of you to see it. The article is captioned "Tough Offseason Leaves Detroit Lacking Firepower":

"This offseason wasn't kind to the Red Wings. Blueliner Brad Stuart took a pay cut to return to San Jose. Jiri Hudler, who scored 25 goals and helped on 25 others, signed a big contract with the Calgary Flames. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter, the top two free agents this offseason, both chose the Minnesota Wild rather than suiting up for home games at Joe Louis Arena. And Nicklas Lidstrom, who won seven Norris Trophies as the NHL's top defenseman and helped the Red Wings win four Stanley Cups in 20 seasons with the franchise, decided to call it a career.Detroit has made the playoffs 21 years in a row, winning four Stanley Cups in six trips to the finals over that span, but it has been clear over the past few seasons that this team is regressing. If the Red Wings aren't able to add one of the top remaining free agents -- Shane Doan and Alexander Semin -- or can't swing a trade to add some offense, will there be enough firepower in Hockeytown for a turnaround?

Lidstrom or Hudler was a key component on four of the 10 highest-scoring combos the Red Wings put on the ice during even-strength play last season. The trio of Hudler, Valtteri Filppula and Henrik Zetterberg was the team's most prolific, producing 104 even-strength points last season, 34 more than the second-best trio of Todd Bertuzzi, Pavel Datsyuk and Johan Franzen. If five-time 20-goal scorer Tomas Holmstrom retires, Detroit loses a veteran presence in front of the net that would need to be replaced.

With Lidstrom and Stuart not suiting up in Motown next season, that leaves Jonathan Ericsson, Jakub Kindl and their eight points as the best defensive pairing still intact from last season.

Making up the lost points at even strength is tough enough, but the Detroit power play has been headed downhill since the Wings' last championship in 2008 and likely won't be able to make up any shortfall.

Conventional wisdom points us to a team's power-play percentage as an indicator of the unit's success, but the efficiency of a team's power play -- especially their shooting percentage -- regresses heavily to the mean. In fact, a team's shooting percentage has almost no predictive value from one game to the next. Shot volume, expressed as shots per 60 power-play minutes, however, is a persistent talent, making it a better indicator of future performance.

Detroit's shot volume on the power play has seen a huge decline in the years following its back-to-back appearances in the Stanley Cup finals. The losses of Lidstrom, Hudler and Holmstrom (if he retires) will exacerbate the issue next season unless some of Detroit's other players -- such as offseason additions Jordin Tootoo and Mikael Samuelsson -- take bigger roles, but that is a longshot.Samuelsson, 35, is on his third team in three years. Tootoo set career highs in points (30) and assists (24) last season, but Nashville earned only 46 percent of even-strength shots in its favor while lining up against third- and fourth-liners. The rest of Detroit's bottom six has some youth and speed but combined for just 68 points in 2011-12.

As Craig Custance noted Monday, the Wings' prospect pipeline could produce some help. However, those expecting to see another Zetterberg/Datsyuk-caliber talent emerge may want to curb their expectations. Since the lockout, the average production by a Red Wings forward in his first two seasons has been four points in 21 games and 223 minutes of ice time. That list includes Filppula, Franzen, Hudler, Darren Helm, Ville Leino and 19 others. If you're looking for a best-case scenario, Franzen has turned in the best early production over that span with 12 goals and four assists in 80 games as a rookie in 2005-06, and 10 goals and 20 assists in 69 games a season later. It's also worth noting that Franzen's rookie campaign came in his age-26 season.

A bigger wild card is Damien Brunner, who had 24 goals and 36 assists in 45 games last season in his native Switzerland. When coach Mike Babcock was asked if Brunner could adjust his play for the smaller North American rink, Babcock felt he could."We're going to give him every opportunity," Babcock said. "He'll be a top-six forward to start with us and see where he goes."

The roster is depleted, and the Red Wings play in a tough division that sent four teams to the playoffs. Detroit may still be a star on America's hockey map, but that star appears to be getting dimmer by the season."

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

All I hear is wah wah wah. I'll be smiling in May when we are in the playoffs yet again.

Agree 100%. I kind of like where the team's at right now... assuming we get at least one solid veteran D. The whole league is writing the Wings off... But I think the league's in for a big surprise. If Babcock... with Renney... can get these guys to dig in and compete... I like our chances. Everyone on the team knows they'll have to bring more to the ice every night because Nick's not there to bail them out any more. I'm actually pretty excited to see what Brunner, Nyquist and Smith can bring to the team.

Agree 100%. I kind of like where the team's at right now... assuming we get at least one solid veteran D. The whole league is writing the Wings off... But I think the league's in for a big surprise. If Babcock... with Renney... can get these guys to dig in and compete... I like our chances. Everyone on the team knows they'll have to bring more to the ice every night because Nick's not there to bail them out any more. I'm actually pretty excited to see what Brunner, Nyquist and Smith can bring to the team.

I'm really not trying to bust your balls here, but just so I know what it is that you're optimistic about, would you mind throwing out a line combo so I can see what you see? Again, I'm really not trying to be a smart ass...I just want to follow you more accurately.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

We're so bad that even Crymson and Nightfall probably believe deep down that we'll miss the playoffs.

Haha, I wouldn't go that far. Its really tough to tell how we are going to do. We have to put in youngsters in the lineup, and that adds some unknowns. how will they respond? No one knows until the season starts. I think the Wings are probably going to make the playoffs, and thats all that matters. With an 8 seed winning in 2012, anything can happen come playoff time.

We're so bad that even Crymson and Nightfall probably believe deep down that we'll miss the playoffs.

Haha, I wouldn't go that far. Its really tough to tell how we are going to do. We have to put in youngsters in the lineup, and that adds some unknowns. how will they respond? No one knows until the season starts. I think the Wings are probably going to make the playoffs, and thats all that matters. With an 8 seed winning in 2012, anything can happen come playoff time.