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Listeroid and AFA

Hello all .. I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this question. First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live off

Message 1 of 14
, Dec 1, 2007

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Hello all ..

I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this
question.

First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live "off the
grid" in western Montana. Currently using solar panels, L16 battery
bank and 6/1 Listeroid diesel engine running on home brew biodiesel
producing both AC power for the shop and DC to top off the battery
bank for home use. I have a small machine shop and enjoy building stuff.

I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:

1) is this a good match?
2) anyone else built this setup?
3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
without heating problems
4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the wrong
place

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Mac

Steve Spence

This is indeed the place. We also have a listeroid, and are building a 3kw axial flux alternator for it. It s a perfect match. Steve Spence

Message 2 of 14
, Dec 1, 2007

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This is indeed the place. We also have a listeroid, and are building a 3kw
axial flux alternator for it. It's a perfect match.

> Hello all ..
>
> I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this
> question.
>
> First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live "off the
> grid" in western Montana. Currently using solar panels, L16 battery
> bank and 6/1 Listeroid diesel engine running on home brew biodiesel
> producing both AC power for the shop and DC to top off the battery
> bank for home use. I have a small machine shop and enjoy building stuff.
>
> I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
> Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:
>
> 1) is this a good match?
> 2) anyone else built this setup?
> 3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
> without heating problems
> 4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the wrong
> place
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated
>
> Mac
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Group Email Addresses
> Related Link:
> http://www.green-trust.org/2006/06/axial-flux-permanent-magnet-alternator.html
> Post message: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: axialflux-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: axialflux-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: axialflux-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Dan Fink

Hi Mac! Yes, Yes, 2kw, and yes. http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/26/141411/24 It s working absolutely great for us, with a steady 2kw output and a

I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:

1) is this a good match?
2) anyone else built this setup?
3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
without heating problems
4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the wrong
place

Dan Bartmann

Hi Mac - We recently built a 2KW alternator for battery charing that s directly driven by my listeroid 6/1. I could probably have close to 4KW from it - but

Message 4 of 14
, Dec 2, 2007

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Hi Mac -
We recently built a 2KW alternator for battery charing that's directly
driven by my listeroid 6/1. I could probably have close to 4KW from
it - but my batteries wouldn't know what to do with it all, 2KW is a
nice charge rate. Mine does 2KW at 600 rpm. There is some discussion
about it here: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/26/141411/24

It would also not be difficult to build a 120VAC (or 240VAC) unit for
it - the trick is keeping the efficiency up high (this means basically
- big magnets and thick wire in the windings) so that the voltage
doesn't vary too much under load, because it is impossible to regulate
these alternators (or at least.. very difficult). Although - I don't
see much point in that. It is very handy though to build a battery
charger - much more efficient than running a standard alternator or
using a generator head/running the output through an inverter.

You can certainly do this - and done right it can be very efficient.
As with any sort of generator - the trick is matching the load to the
engine (it's easier with something like a diesel engine than it is
with a wind turbine).

--- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McQuaid" <mac@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all ..
>
> I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this
> question.
>
> First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live "off the
> grid" in western Montana. Currently using solar panels, L16 battery
> bank and 6/1 Listeroid diesel engine running on home brew biodiesel
> producing both AC power for the shop and DC to top off the battery
> bank for home use. I have a small machine shop and enjoy building
stuff.
>
> I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
> Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:
>
> 1) is this a good match?
> 2) anyone else built this setup?
> 3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
> without heating problems
> 4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the wrong
> place
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated
>
> Mac
>

Dan Bartmann

Hi Mac - (I hope I ve not posted this twice... I tried earlier but it seems not to have taken after after a few hours) We recently built a 2KW alternator for

Message 5 of 14
, Dec 2, 2007

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Hi Mac - (I hope I've not posted this twice... I tried earlier but it
seems not to have taken after after a few hours)
We recently built a 2KW alternator for battery charing that's directly
driven by my listeroid 6/1. I could probably have close to 4KW from
it - but my batteries wouldn't know what to do with it all, 2KW is a
nice charge rate. Mine does 2KW at 600 rpm. There is some discussion
and detail about how we built it/wound the stator here: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/26/141411/24

I might have done better to build a larger alternator for it (3 - 4KW)
and run the engine more slowly to keep the charge rate at 2kW - but I
wanted to use our standard wind turbine parts and keep the efficiency
high at 2KW. (large alternators start getting expensive)

One big advantage to doing this (other than high efficiency if you get
it right) is not having a belt. I find my engine fairly difficult to
start when it's very cold unless I take the belt off.

It would also not be difficult to build a 120VAC (or 240VAC) unit for
it - the trick is keeping the efficiency up high (this means basically
- big magnets and thick wire in the windings) so that the voltage
doesn't vary too much under load, because it is impossible to regulate
these alternators (or at least.. very difficult). Although - I don't
see much point in that. It is very handy though to build a battery
charger - much more efficient than running a standard alternator or
using a generator head/running the output through an inverter.

You can certainly do this - and done right it can be very efficient.
As with any sort of generator - the trick is matching the load to the
engine (it's easier with something like a diesel engine than it is
with a wind turbine).

--- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McQuaid" <mac@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all ..
>
> I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this
> question.
>
> First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live "off the
> grid" in western Montana. Currently using solar panels, L16 battery
> bank and 6/1 Listeroid diesel engine running on home brew biodiesel
> producing both AC power for the shop and DC to top off the battery
> bank for home use. I have a small machine shop and enjoy building
stuff.
>
> I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
> Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:
>
> 1) is this a good match?
> 2) anyone else built this setup?
> 3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
> without heating problems
> 4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the wrong
> place
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated
>
> Mac
>

Mac McQuaid

Dan ... Thanks for the additional info. I am currently running two Ford alternators limited to 50 amps output each to keep from burning up the diodes. I have a

Message 6 of 14
, Dec 2, 2007

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Dan ...

Thanks for the additional info.

I am currently running two Ford alternators limited to 50 amps output
each to keep from burning up the diodes. I have a 6/1 Fuking Listeroid
engine. My goal is to build some sort of a DC power source for my 12
volt battery bank (2,100 ah) that will produce 200 amps @ 13 - 14
volts. Sounds like the AFA is the answer. I have a couple of questions
more than are found on the links you have included.

You mentioned that "big alternators" get expensive. Assuming I do all
my own work .. what do you estimate magnets would cost for the project
assuming a 3kw alternator? What kind of other major costs can I expect?

You indicate that you use 4 strands of #15 ga. copper wire. Is there a
reason you use multiple strands of smaller wire vs. one strand of
larger wire to wind the coils?

Some pictures show round magnets while others show rectangular ones.
Any particular reason? Is there a general rule for magnet thickness?
Thicker = more amps or volts?

What would be the result of more magnets & coils such as 15 vs. 12?
Advantages and disadvantages?

Does the angle iron mount you show on the Listeroid to hold the stator
seem to be strong enough to not vibrate or is a bottom stabilizer needed?

Thanks in advance for all your help

Mac

--- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Bartmann" <danb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mac - (I hope I've not posted this twice... I tried earlier but it
> seems not to have taken after after a few hours)
> We recently built a 2KW alternator for battery charing that's directly
> driven by my listeroid 6/1. I could probably have close to 4KW from
> it - but my batteries wouldn't know what to do with it all, 2KW is a
> nice charge rate. Mine does 2KW at 600 rpm. There is some discussion
> and detail about how we built it/wound the stator here:
> http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/26/141411/24
>
> I might have done better to build a larger alternator for it (3 - 4KW)
> and run the engine more slowly to keep the charge rate at 2kW - but I
> wanted to use our standard wind turbine parts and keep the efficiency
> high at 2KW. (large alternators start getting expensive)
>
> One big advantage to doing this (other than high efficiency if you get
> it right) is not having a belt. I find my engine fairly difficult to
> start when it's very cold unless I take the belt off.
>
> It would also not be difficult to build a 120VAC (or 240VAC) unit for
> it - the trick is keeping the efficiency up high (this means basically
> - big magnets and thick wire in the windings) so that the voltage
> doesn't vary too much under load, because it is impossible to regulate
> these alternators (or at least.. very difficult). Although - I don't
> see much point in that. It is very handy though to build a battery
> charger - much more efficient than running a standard alternator or
> using a generator head/running the output through an inverter.
>
> A very good place also to discuss this sort of thing is the forum at
> listerengine.com, and there is also a thread (borderline flame war)
> about mine here:
> http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=2734.0
>
> We also built an interesting axial flux battery charger for a 1903 6hp
> steam engine this summer: http://otherpower.com/steamengine.shtml
>
> You can certainly do this - and done right it can be very efficient.
> As with any sort of generator - the trick is matching the load to the
> engine (it's easier with something like a diesel engine than it is
> with a wind turbine).
>
> --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McQuaid" <mac@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all ..
> >
> > I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this
> > question.
> >
> > First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live "off the
> > grid" in western Montana. Currently using solar panels, L16 battery
> > bank and 6/1 Listeroid diesel engine running on home brew biodiesel
> > producing both AC power for the shop and DC to top off the battery
> > bank for home use. I have a small machine shop and enjoy building
> stuff.
> >
> > I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
> > Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:
> >
> > 1) is this a good match?
> > 2) anyone else built this setup?
> > 3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
> > without heating problems
> > 4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the wrong
> > place
> >
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated
> >
> > Mac
> >
>

votecoffee

To control the output voltage you need to regulate the speed of the diesel engine. Higher rpm=higher voltage, lower rpm equals lower voltage. When a load is

Message 7 of 14
, Dec 3, 2007

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To control the output voltage you need to regulate the speed of the
diesel engine. Higher rpm=higher voltage, lower rpm equals lower
voltage. When a load is applied, the diesel engine will slow down
unless throttle is increased. More load means more throttle to
maintain the rpm to keep a constant voltage. The best way to regulate
is to measure rpm of motor using a tachometer that outputs the pulses
into a microprocessor and use that to control the throttle using
whatever you choose. I recommend arduino stamps, they're cheap and
easy to program. The reason I recommend a microprocessor, because it
is possible to go all mechanical or even hard wire a circuit is
because with a microprocessor you can modify it, change, add more
complexity, etc as needed. And it's cheap and simple to boot. I
would recommend running your diesel engine at it's most efficient rpm
and using pulleys or gears to step it down to the speed that the
alternator, generator head or whatever takes to put out your desired
voltage. To closer to the engine's efficient rpm you are, the less
fuel you'll use. A lot of engines run most efficiently in the range
of 2000ish. If you have any questions let me know. Diesel engines
running electric power need to be regulated. It's crucial to keep
good battery life. And your batteries should have a charge regulator
on them as well to keep from overcharging.

Steve Spence

Listeroids are governed to their design speed of 650 rpm. A perfect match for a Axial Flux Alternator. Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org ... From:

Message 8 of 14
, Dec 3, 2007

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Listeroids are governed to their design speed of 650 rpm. A perfect match
for a Axial Flux Alternator.

> To control the output voltage you need to regulate the speed of the
> diesel engine. Higher rpm=higher voltage, lower rpm equals lower
> voltage. When a load is applied, the diesel engine will slow down
> unless throttle is increased. More load means more throttle to
> maintain the rpm to keep a constant voltage. The best way to regulate
> is to measure rpm of motor using a tachometer that outputs the pulses
> into a microprocessor and use that to control the throttle using
> whatever you choose. I recommend arduino stamps, they're cheap and
> easy to program. The reason I recommend a microprocessor, because it
> is possible to go all mechanical or even hard wire a circuit is
> because with a microprocessor you can modify it, change, add more
> complexity, etc as needed. And it's cheap and simple to boot. I
> would recommend running your diesel engine at it's most efficient rpm
> and using pulleys or gears to step it down to the speed that the
> alternator, generator head or whatever takes to put out your desired
> voltage. To closer to the engine's efficient rpm you are, the less
> fuel you'll use. A lot of engines run most efficiently in the range
> of 2000ish. If you have any questions let me know. Diesel engines
> running electric power need to be regulated. It's crucial to keep
> good battery life. And your batteries should have a charge regulator
> on them as well to keep from overcharging.
>
>
>
> Group Email Addresses
> Related Link:
> http://www.green-trust.org/2006/06/axial-flux-permanent-magnet-alternator.html
> Post message: axialflux@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: axialflux-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: axialflux-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: axialflux-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Mac McQuaid

Has anyone used a flywheel from a car engine for a rotor plate? Would take some machine work but might be worth while. These should be cheap and available plus

Message 9 of 14
, Dec 3, 2007

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Has anyone used a flywheel from a car engine for a rotor plate? Would
take some machine work but might be worth while.

These should be cheap and available plus would add "flywheel" effect
to the Listeroid (as if you need more:).

Mac

Dan Bartmann

Hi Mac - ... When dealing with lots of power, 12 Volts becomes tedious.... ... It depends on the sort of efficiency you want from your alternator I guess. At

Message 10 of 14
, Dec 3, 2007

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Hi Mac -

> I am currently running two Ford alternators limited to 50 amps output
> each to keep from burning up the diodes. I have a 6/1 Fuking Listeroid
> engine. My goal is to build some sort of a DC power source for my 12
> volt battery bank (2,100 ah) that will produce 200 amps @ 13 - 14
> volts. Sounds like the AFA is the answer. I have a couple of questions
> more than are found on the links you have included.

When dealing with lots of power, 12 Volts becomes tedious....

>
> You mentioned that "big alternators" get expensive. Assuming I do all
> my own work .. what do you estimate magnets would cost for the project
> assuming a 3kw alternator? What kind of other major costs can I expect?

It depends on the sort of efficiency you want from your alternator I
guess. At some point you reach diminishing returns....

>
> You indicate that you use 4 strands of #15 ga. copper wire. Is there a
> reason you use multiple strands of smaller wire vs. one strand of
> larger wire to wind the coils?

Yes... thick wire has issues with eddy currents and - it simply
becomes hard to handle and wind tightly. I prefer to (when winding
coils by hand) not use wire much thicker than 14 gage.

>
> Some pictures show round magnets while others show rectangular ones.
> Any particular reason?

Just different designs - I use different sized magnets depending on
rotor diameter - magnet availability... mood... ;-)

Is there a general rule for magnet thickness?

> Thicker = more amps or volts?

A nice rule of thumb is keep the magnets about as thick as the stator.
If my stator is 1/2" thick then magnets of the same thickness are
nice. You can go thicker and get more power at the same rpm but you
quickly run back into that point of diminishing returns. There are
also rules in my mind about magnet width and height.

>
> What would be the result of more magnets & coils such as 15 vs. 12?
> Advantages and disadvantages?

It depends. I went with a simple 3 phase formula. YOU - at 12 volts
have more problems because you really need to figure out how do deal
with gobs of current. Your best bet at 12 Volts (and - if you're
serious about having a really good power system I would rethink the
12V bit) is to probably wind each coil to be its own little 12V
alternator and rectify each coil seperately. (Im doing this same
thing now for a neighbor but Im not that fond of the idea and its
inconvenient). There are lots of advantages to higher voltage. But
yes - if you rectify each coil by itself you can do lots of things.

>
> Does the angle iron mount you show on the Listeroid to hold the stator
> seem to be strong enough to not vibrate or is a bottom stabilizer

needed?

That had me (still does a bit) quite worried actually... I made it
that way because it seemed easy and I thought it might work but I
still think its a bit on the weak side of things. So far - so good -
it has lots of hours on it now but Im not convinced it will hold up
over the long haul.

>
> Thanks in advance for all your help
>
> Mac
>
>
> --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Bartmann" <danb@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mac - (I hope I've not posted this twice... I tried earlier but it
> > seems not to have taken after after a few hours)
> > We recently built a 2KW alternator for battery charing that's directly
> > driven by my listeroid 6/1. I could probably have close to 4KW from
> > it - but my batteries wouldn't know what to do with it all, 2KW is a
> > nice charge rate. Mine does 2KW at 600 rpm. There is some discussion
> > and detail about how we built it/wound the stator here:
> > http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/26/141411/24
> >
> > I might have done better to build a larger alternator for it (3 - 4KW)
> > and run the engine more slowly to keep the charge rate at 2kW - but I
> > wanted to use our standard wind turbine parts and keep the efficiency
> > high at 2KW. (large alternators start getting expensive)
> >
> > One big advantage to doing this (other than high efficiency if you get
> > it right) is not having a belt. I find my engine fairly difficult to
> > start when it's very cold unless I take the belt off.
> >
> > It would also not be difficult to build a 120VAC (or 240VAC) unit for
> > it - the trick is keeping the efficiency up high (this means basically
> > - big magnets and thick wire in the windings) so that the voltage
> > doesn't vary too much under load, because it is impossible to regulate
> > these alternators (or at least.. very difficult). Although - I don't
> > see much point in that. It is very handy though to build a battery
> > charger - much more efficient than running a standard alternator or
> > using a generator head/running the output through an inverter.
> >
> > A very good place also to discuss this sort of thing is the forum at
> > listerengine.com, and there is also a thread (borderline flame war)
> > about mine here:
> > http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=2734.0
> >
> > We also built an interesting axial flux battery charger for a 1903 6hp
> > steam engine this summer: http://otherpower.com/steamengine.shtml
> >
> > You can certainly do this - and done right it can be very efficient.
> > As with any sort of generator - the trick is matching the load to the
> > engine (it's easier with something like a diesel engine than it is
> > with a wind turbine).
> >
> > --- In axialflux@yahoogroups.com, "Mac McQuaid" <mac@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello all ..
> > >
> > > I am new to the group so hope this is the correct place to ask this
> > > question.
> > >
> > > First... a little history about myself. I am retired. We live

"off the

> > > grid" in western Montana. Currently using solar panels, L16 battery
> > > bank and 6/1 Listeroid diesel engine running on home brew biodiesel
> > > producing both AC power for the shop and DC to top off the battery
> > > bank for home use. I have a small machine shop and enjoy building
> > stuff.
> > >
> > > I have an interest in Axial Flux Alternator powered by my 650 rpm
> > > Listeroid diesel. with the following questions:
> > >
> > > 1) is this a good match?
> > > 2) anyone else built this setup?
> > > 3) how many amps could I expect to produce with a home made AFA
> > > without heating problems
> > > 4) is there a thread that deals with this subject or am I in the

Is it possible to gang up a couple of axial-flux alternators on the shaft, or is it better to just go with a bigger diameter alternator? I ve been eyeballing

Message 14 of 14
, Feb 14, 2008

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Is it possible to gang up a couple of axial-flux alternators on the
shaft, or is it better to just go with a bigger diameter alternator?
I've been eyeballing Otherpower's kits for this project tho I could get
off my lazy butt and wind the coils myself...