Barkley Clearly Outplayed Malone from 1986 to 1996: The Stats Do Not Count the 85-86 Season but Now They are Also Found and Those the Matchups Also Favor Barkley. It wasn`t till Barkley left for the Rockets as a Role Player that Malone took Over as the Best PF.

Before Barkley used to Dominate Those Matchups. Even Bill Walton Mentioned It in the 97 WCFs.

I Don`t Hate Malone...Infact I Consider Him The Best Catch and Finish Player of All Time (Better than Barkley as a Reciever) Regarding that He had Stockton the Best Creator and Passer of All Time. He was Physically Imposing, Great Finisher, Solid Defender but He Wasn`t as Skilled as Barkley at Nothing But FT Shooting. He Later on Developed a Better Post Game but Never in the Level of Sir Charles Who Was Shaq-like Inside the 3-Pointline.

The man could score, when you have other scorers, they don't always get opportunities. I never said he was a great all around player, for example, he was just a terrible defender, and didn't do anything other than score. But if you wanted scoring, he could give you that. Cliff Robinson didn't do anything other than

lol just give up. he scored 7 points per game. nothing more needs to be said...and you are comparing him to cliff robinson? what a joke this conversation is becoming. cliff robinson was the equilivent of today's danny granger. how many small forwards could rebound better than robinson?

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You're denying that Darrell Griffith could score too?

he wasn't a mid-range type scorer

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I'm aware of this hypothetical lineup you created, I've seen it several times now and I'm not impressed. It doesn't look as potent as Stockton's Utah offense(well, actually Malone's Utah offense), and that wasn't a good offense. Then you go from the top ranked defense to roughly bottom 4, and I'm convinced they're not

i've seen your argument for barkley, and i'm not impressed. the opposing teams offense would be tired anyway due to having to defend so many options, directly improving the sixers defense.

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Eaton was an 18 mpg player by his last season. Although Utah's success in '94 is not surprising, that's around the time we really started seeing Malone's game become complete when he was becoming an excellent passer, post defender and mid-range shooter. They also added Jeff Hornacek and Tom Chambers(though Chambers didn't give them much in the postseason).

excuses. you bring statements, i destroy them, and you proceed to make excuses. story of the thread.

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at Harper being better than Drexler in '89

drexler couldn't even lead his team to a .500 record and was swept in the first round.

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Terry Porter was not better than Price. He was a better defender, but Price was clearly the better passer, shooter and ball handler(how many could split traps like Price)? I liked Porter's game too. He's in my top 25 list for 1990.

porter was bigger and stronger than price, price would get walked over by most point guards in the league.
porter was the blazers second best player, the blazers ended up with the second best record in the nba, and made the nba finals. porter averaged 17.6ppg, 3.4rpg, 9.1apg, 1.9spg on 46/37/89 in the regular season and 20.6ppg, 2.9rpg, 7.4apg, 1.3spg on 46/39/84 in the playoffs. clearly better than price.

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Of course, because Daugherty and Nance were healthy in the '92 seasons. Just like they were healthy in the '90 playoffs, Nance had a down series, but Daugherty was back playing at prime level.

to have a player of nance's caliber have a series like that would be quite detrimental to the teams success.

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Williams was not a better player than a healthy Brad Daugherty. I didn't rank Daugherty in '90 because he didn't qualify in games played, but he was back putting up 23/10/4 on 59 FG%.

williams was better than daugherty in that particular season

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Nance had a down series, but they still had Daugherty(23/10/4, 59 FG%), Price(20/3/9, 53 FG%) and Williams (19/9, 56 FG%). The Bullets didn't have that kind of talent, not even close.

they didn't have that kind of talent, but they all stepped up their games, nobody had a down series.

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Barkley played well in that game, I don't care if Hawkins stepped up with a huge game. You know that a team's second best player can outplay the best player every now and then. It's not a big deal.

in a deciding game of a series to get outplayed by that much is a issue here.

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Yeah and the '86 Celtics are arguably the best team ever, getting dominated by them means nothing. But if you're discrediting the Bucks with Moncrief for that, then it doesn't say as much about the feat of Barkley taking them to 7 without winning 1 of the games Moncrief played.

losing playoff games with a small sample size without one of your best players means nothing.

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I wouldn't expect a player to do anything more with that roster. Certainly not contend for a title.

if thats all they can do they will be ranked accordingly

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Right, because everyone who is voted finals MVP belongs in the best player discussion.

a top 8 player all time winning finals mvp will be more than likely the best player in the league.

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What do I care if Magic led the league in steals? He was still a mediocre defender. Maybe if Magic had an outside shot back then, or a post game I'd consider it.

leading the league means you are the best out of every player in the league at a certain aspect of the game. this definately means alot.

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I'll take the dominant post player averaging 24 ppg on 58% shooting and blocking almost 3 shots per game. The guy who was drawing double teams and could score at any point in the game.

have him. i'll take the best player in the nba. like 24ppg is such a huge number anyway its like 21ppg in today's league, and about 7 rebounds too. abdul-jabber led the lakers scoring in the finals once out of 5 games

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Magic didn't even have a case for being better than Kareem until '84 when he started to show more of an outside shot, but it was still debatable. Why do you think Pat Riley waited until the '86-'87 season to make Magic the 1st option?

1982 was the first season magic was better than kareem. magic was a point guard, it is unhealthy to make a point guard your first option, especially as magic could dominate your team in a number of different ways other than scoring.

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20.4 ppg is paltry? He was also averaging almost 9 boards and almost 4 assists with over 3 blocks per game.

And it's not all about stats. Kareem was clearly better than Magic for being so much better as a scorer, a guy who you have to double(unlike '82 Magic) and a real defensive presence and shot blocker(unlike Magic).

magic stepped up alot more, as did norm nixon. kareem struggled rebounding the ball, even at 7-2, and often got outmuscled down low.

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at you once again comparing team success in completely different roles and situations. Serious question, have you watched any '89 and '97 Barkley games? Because if you did, you might want to use what you saw in those games to rank his best years instead of whatever criteria leads to such huge mistakes.

i don't make mistakes. and yes, i have watched alot of barkley games.

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Yes he was voted MVP and DPOY, and I don't have a problem with the MVP, I might go with Bird, but Jordan has a great case, but '88 Jordan simply shouldn't have been voted DPOY. He was definitely not at his own defensive peak, and it's hard enough to justify a perimeter player getting the award.

Jordan didn't dominate more categories. He was a better scorer and defender. Bird was the better rebounder and passer.

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'91 Pippen in '94= 1st round exit or lottery team.

'94 pippen in '91 = do not make finals

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Pippen's 5 best seasons in order: '94, '95, '96, '92, '97

'91, '92, '96, '97, '93

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The Knicks had a better regular season by 1 win. Both teams were overmatched by the Bulls. This is really pointless.

why are you still typing then

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Peak '94 Pippen helped the Bulls only fall off by 2 wins after Jordan retired, helped Chicago overachieve greatly to 55-27(51-21 w/ Pippen and 44-16 w/ Pippen and Grant), took a Knick team that had challenged the Jordan Bulls to 7, the same team that was a shot away from the '94 title, were probably prevented from a finals appearance by only the horrendous Hue Hollins call.

he never shot the ball better than '91, he never played better in the playoff's than '91, and he never played better in the finals than '91

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Sorry, he didn't have the luxury of playing with Magic and Worthy on a team with a very deep frontcourt and 5-6 scoring options overall.

neither did pete maravich, lets rank him as one of the best ever players based on what could have happened

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So they preferred winning less?

if it meant they wouldn't have to deal with all the bullshit that he brings with him

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No, his minutes dropped significantly. And as long as we're talking about Elliott without the Spurs, how about the Spurs without Elliott? They're in the semifinals with him in '93, he leaves and they lose in the 1st round with Karl Malone humiliating David Robinson, Elliott returns and they're in the conference finals with a franchise record at the time of 62 wins.

why didn't his minutes increase in detroit? surely they should have known this star player needs minutes? elliott couldn't even manage to be a top 4 player on the second worst team in the league.

without elliott the spurs won 6 more games. and robinson was the most disappointing player in the playoffs, but having the 5th best player on the second worst team in the nba wouldn't have won the spurs anymore games tho.

lol just give up. he scored 7 points per game. nothing more needs to be said...and you are comparing him to cliff robinson? what a joke this conversation is becoming. cliff robinson was the equilivent of today's danny granger. how many small forwards could rebound better than robinson?

I'm not saying Tripucka was a great all around player, but he could score. He averaged 23 ppg the next season in Charlotte.

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he wasn't a mid-range type scorer

Adding more qualifications now that you realize Stockton had more than 2 scorers?

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i've seen your argument for barkley, and i'm not impressed. the opposing teams offense would be tired anyway due to having to defend so many options, directly improving the sixers defense.

And I've seen Stockton and I know he couldn't dominate a game like Barkley. Give Barkley Eaton to patrol the paint and I'm sure their defense is just fine.

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excuses. you bring statements, i destroy them, and you proceed to make excuses. story of the thread.

The story of the thread is you making outrageous claims that are nothing short of shocking.

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drexler couldn't even lead his team to a .500 record and was swept in the first round.

The Cavs had a nice regular season, and Price, Daugherty and Nance, three of the best players at their position deserve a lot of credit, but they were upset by a Bulls team that won 10 fewer games and were still largely a 1 man show. That's how far Harper got with the Cavs best player Mark Price injured.

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porter was bigger and stronger than price, price would get walked over by most point guards in the league.
porter was the blazers second best player, the blazers ended up with the second best record in the nba, and made the nba finals. porter averaged 17.6ppg, 3.4rpg, 9.1apg, 1.9spg on 46/37/89 in the regular season and 20.6ppg, 2.9rpg, 7.4apg, 1.3spg on 46/39/84 in the playoffs. clearly better than price.

Porter was the better defender and more capable of playing like a 2 guard, but Price was the better shooter, ball handler and passer. Three things I value more in a point guard. Price averaged 19.6 ppg and 9.1 apg on 46/41/89 shooting while leading the league 2.1 made 3s per game and just 2.9 turnovers. His postseason was right there as well at 20 ppg and 8.8 apg on 53% shooting while making all 30 of his free throws. Keep in mind, he was playing on a half court team, while Porter was on an up tempo team with quite a few athletic players with size.

He led a Cavs team that dealt with some bad injuries to a winning record as well. Porter is on my list for '90, and not far below Price, but below him.

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to have a player of nance's caliber have a series like that would be quite detrimental to the teams success.

They had Daugherty back on his game, Price was his usual self and Hot Rod Williams raised his game.

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williams was better than daugherty in that particular season

Not any surprise considering Daugherty was affected by injuries and missed half the season.

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they didn't have that kind of talent, but they all stepped up their games, nobody had a down series.

They're still not a particularly formidable team, imo.

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in a deciding game of a series to get outplayed by that much is a issue here.

He won the game, who cares?

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losing playoff games with a small sample size without one of your best players means nothing.

So according to you, it's a coincidence that the Bucks best player plays 3 games, the Bucks win them all, he misses 4 in the series and the Bucks lose 3 of those 4? It's a bigger sample size than the one game vs the Cavs you're talking about.

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if thats all they can do they will be ranked accordingly

He swept the Bucks in the first round averaging 24/11/7, 2.7 spg, 52 FG% including a 22/13/10 and then 30/12/6/4 in a 21 blowout win to clinch the series. He also had a solid series vs the Bulls averaging 26/10/5 on 64%. They lost, but were 1 of 2 teams(along with the stacked Lakers) to win a game vs the Bulls.

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a top 8 player all time winning finals mvp will be more than likely the best player in the league.

He wasn't in his prime yet, Kareem was closer to his prime(probably 1-2 years removed), and ranks higher all-time, imo.

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leading the league means you are the best out of every player in the league at a certain aspect of the game. this definately means alot.

No it doesn't, steals can often come from gambling, and they don't mean you're a good defender. Magic was a pretty good help defender, but a poor individual defender. Magic wasn't contributing much defensively, especially since they had to hide him defensively.

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have him. i'll take the best player in the nba. like 24ppg is such a huge number anyway its like 21ppg in today's league, and about 7 rebounds too. abdul-jabber led the lakers scoring in the finals once out of 5 games

Kareem's scoring likely wasn't affected by pace, he almost never ran the floor and scored in transition, he'd likely get at least as many post touches today. Magic lived in transition back then, he'd be affected more. Kareem was the Lakers half court offense. Spacing was also worse back then since 3s weren't a significant part of the game yet.

Kareem's rebounding was ok, the Lakers often let Magic get the rebound so he could start the break just like Kidd in recent years. He was averaging close to 9 per game anyway, not great, but if he was concerned about his numbers, I'm sure he could have gotten the 10 by going out his way to get an extra uncontested rebound they let Magic get.

But beyond his scoring average, he was the best post player in the league with the most unstoppable offensive weapon, the sky hook. Not that he needed them, but he also had counter moves such as the turnaround jumper, left-handed hook and a drop step. The Lakers needed that because when the game slowed down, he was the guy they'd go to, and what other Laker got double teamed consistently? Those double teams created opportunities for teammates since he was an excellent passer. And 24 ppg on 58% and 71% from the line is damn good anyway.

Aside from being their best scorer by far, he was a shot blocking center who averaged 2.7 bpg and 3.2 bpg. A 7'2" presence among the leaders in blocks makes a significant difference, especially compared to Magic's average at best defense.

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1982 was the first season magic was better than kareem. magic was a point guard, it is unhealthy to make a point guard your first option, especially as magic could dominate your team in a number of different ways other than scoring.

Magic wasn't better than Kareem until at least the '83-'84 season, and then it was debatable,

And it's fine to have your point guard as your first option if he has the skill set for it. When Pat Riley first made Magic the 1st option in the '86-'87 season, he thrived in the role because he had added a good outside shot, and a post game.

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magic stepped up alot more, as did norm nixon. kareem struggled rebounding the ball, even at 7-2, and often got outmuscled down low.

Both Magic and Kareem pretty much played their games. Neither stepped up noticeably to me.

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he never shot the ball better than '91, he never played better in the playoff's than '91, and he never played better in the finals than '91

The 4.2 ppg increase in '94, while also not having Jordan to take pressure off of him, playing at a slower pace and making 0.9 threes per game vs 0.3 in '91 more than makes up for 52 to 49 FG%. Scoring, shooting percentage and offensive numbers in general were down significantly in '94 compared to '91.

Pippen did play very well in the '91 finals, but I'd say he was better in the '92 finals,

You were much closer then, just like your previous ranking of 2000 Kobe at 6th rather than 2nd was far closer.

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neither did pete maravich, lets rank him as one of the best ever players based on what could have happened

Pete never had any type of team success, while Daugherty led a 57 win conference finals team just the next season.

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if it meant they wouldn't have to deal with all the bullshit that he brings with him

Well, Chicago sure was happy they felt that way.

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why didn't his minutes increase in detroit? surely they should have known this star player needs minutes? elliott couldn't even manage to be a top 4 player on the second worst team in the league.

I don't know why his minutes decreased, or why he had a down year. Admittedly, I didn't watch the Pistons much before Grant Hill, and collecting games, I've only really gotten into the Bad Boys era from '88-'92 and some games from their run and gun era with Isiah.

I'll have to look into that season more, but I have season plenty of Elliott with San Antonio and he was a quality player.

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without elliott the spurs won 6 more games. and robinson was the most disappointing player in the playoffs, but having the 5th best player on the second worst team in the nba wouldn't have won the spurs anymore games tho.

And they were out in the 1st round, Sean Elliott comes back in '95 and they not only win 62 games, but get to the conference finals.

I'm not saying Tripucka was a great all around player, but he could score. He averaged 23 ppg the next season in Charlotte.

you could probably score 23ppg on a team in which was playing in its first ever season. thats the difference between being able to produce in losing teams, and being able to produce in winning situations. trash can produce in losing teams, anybody can put up empty stats, but its when the production contributes to winning is what makes the difference. tripucka was given a winning situation and the best he could come up with was 7 points, then he was given the worst team in the league playing in its first season and he gave you 23. obviously the hornets management caught on to this and reduced his role and eventually he was out of the league because they knew that he would not contribute if they wanted to be successful into the future.

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Adding more qualifications now that you realize Stockton had more than 2 scorers?

the word "scorers" might mean something different to me than it does to you. cut off will be 15ppg to be labeled as a scorer.

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And I've seen Stockton and I know he couldn't dominate a game like Barkley. Give Barkley Eaton to patrol the paint and I'm sure their defense is just fine.

stockton easily dominated more games than barkley, and at a more consistent rate. give stockton moses malone, erving, hawkins, majerle, manning, olajuwon, drexler, and pippen and i'm sure he wins multiple championships.

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The story of the thread is you making outrageous claims that are nothing short of shocking.

emtpy stats on the second fastest paced team in the league, meanwhile cleveland had the third slowest pace in the league.

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The Cavs had a nice regular season, and Price, Daugherty and Nance, three of the best players at their position deserve a lot of credit, but they were upset by a Bulls team that won 10 fewer games and were still largely a 1 man show. That's how far Harper got with the Cavs best player Mark Price injured.

first of all price wasn't even in the cavs top 2 best players of the regular season, those places went to nance and harper. secondly price played 4 out of 5 games and played like utter filth. the only players that did anything remotely close to what they produced in the regular season in that series was larry nance, ron harper, and john williams. price dipped to 16/3/6 <39% and fat daugherty, once again proving what a great playoff performer he was went on to produce the stellar line of 11/9/2 <37%fg. as for losing the series, well not much needs to be said when the greatest player of all time puts up 39.8ppg, 5.8rpg, 8.2apg, 3.0spg, 0.4bpg, on 52% on your ass all series long, including the series winning jumper.

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Porter was the better defender and more capable of playing like a 2 guard, but Price was the better shooter, ball handler and passer. Three things I value more in a point guard. Price averaged 19.6 ppg and 9.1 apg on 46/41/89 shooting while leading the league 2.1 made 3s per game and just 2.9 turnovers. His postseason was right there as well at 20 ppg and 8.8 apg on 53% shooting while making all 30 of his free throws. Keep in mind, he was playing on a half court team, while Porter was on an up tempo team with quite a few athletic players with size.

He led a Cavs team that dealt with some bad injuries to a winning record as well. Porter is on my list for '90, and not far below Price, but below him.

terry porter could get to the line at will and love mixing it up with the big boys inside. he also had a great post up game and was awesome in transition too on top of being a fantastic defender either on the perimeter or in transition.

price was one of my favourite players, and this was probably his peak season, but he did get outplayed by brad daugherty after being the cavs best player in the regular season. the regular season has porter over price by the smallest of margins, but the playoffs make it clear who was the better player between the two after porter helps the blazers into the nba finals. porter had that massive game 7 to close out david robinson and the san antonio spurs with 36 points on 9/18fg, 4/9 from downtown, and 14/16 from the free throw line, along with 4 rebounds 9 assists and 2 steals.

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They had Daugherty back on his game, Price was his usual self and Hot Rod Williams raised his game.

i wouldn't say hot rod raised his game. steve kerr also had no impact

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He won the game, who cares?

so if hawkins won finals mvp over barkley had they made the finals...he won the finals, who cares?

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So according to you, it's a coincidence that the Bucks best player plays 3 games, the Bucks win them all, he misses 4 in the series and the Bucks lose 3 of those 4? It's a bigger sample size than the one game vs the Cavs you're talking about.

when did paul pressey miss games?

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He swept the Bucks in the first round averaging 24/11/7, 2.7 spg, 52 FG% including a 22/13/10 and then 30/12/6/4 in a 21 blowout win to clinch the series. He also had a solid series vs the Bulls averaging 26/10/5 on 64%. They lost, but were 1 of 2 teams(along with the stacked Lakers) to win a game vs the Bulls.

yeh he played well in those playoffs. good enough for 9th best in the league.

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He wasn't in his prime yet, Kareem was closer to his prime(probably 1-2 years removed), and ranks higher all-time, imo.

yeh kareem ranks higher all-time. he is top 2. and 1982 was magic's second best year in the nba, ofcourse it is in his prime.

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No it doesn't, steals can often come from gambling, and they don't mean you're a good defender. Magic was a pretty good help defender, but a poor individual defender. Magic wasn't contributing much defensively, especially since they had to hide him defensively.

it means you've got great anticipation. and i lol at they had to "hide" him defensively. he was outstanding at forcing turnovers and was an above average defender overall.

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Kareem's scoring likely wasn't affected by pace, he almost never ran the floor and scored in transition, he'd likely get at least as many post touches today. Magic lived in transition back then, he'd be affected more. Kareem was the Lakers half court offense. Spacing was also worse back then since 3s weren't a significant part of the game yet.

magic changed the game and how it was played. if magic played today he would force an uptempo offense.

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Kareem's rebounding was ok, the Lakers often let Magic get the rebound so he could start the break just like Kidd in recent years. He was averaging close to 9 per game anyway, not great, but if he was concerned about his numbers, I'm sure he could have gotten the 10 by going out his way to get an extra uncontested rebound they let Magic get.

they let him get the rebound..what a joke. more excuses and what if's. the facts are abdul-jabbar was an average rebounder on both ends, and when you take into consideration that he was 7-2, it becomes even more apparent.

But beyond his scoring average, he was the best post player in the league with the most unstoppable offensive weapon, the sky hook. Not that he needed them, but he also had counter moves such as the turnaround jumper, left-handed hook and a drop step. The Lakers needed that because when the game slowed down, he was the guy they'd go to, and what other Laker got double teamed consistently? Those double teams created opportunities for teammates since he was an excellent passer. And 24 ppg on 58% and 71% from the line is damn good anyway.

Aside from being their best scorer by far, he was a shot blocking center who averaged 2.7 bpg and 3.2 bpg. A 7'2" presence among the leaders in blocks makes a significant difference, especially compared to Magic's average at best defense.

kareem was a nice player, top 2 in the league infact..but magic was just plain better. on the previous season alone, his numbers took a significant nose dive his free throw percent dropped from 77 to 71, he only managed to get to the free throw line only 5.8 times per game, points were down 26.2 to 23.9, he recorded single digits in rebounds per game for the first time in his career and halved what he averaged just 6 years earlier 10.3 to 8.7, assists went down 3.4 to 3, and blocks went down 2.9 to 2.7. in all, it was obvious that kareem could not produce at the level he did in the 70's and 1980, and it was now magic johnson's team.

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Magic wasn't better than Kareem until at least the '83-'84 season, and then it was debatable,

the difference between magic and kareem in 1984 is about the same as the difference between charles barkley and vernon maxwell in 1992.

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And it's fine to have your point guard as your first option if he has the skill set for it. When Pat Riley first made Magic the 1st option in the '86-'87 season, he thrived in the role because he had added a good outside shot, and a post game.

although he might not have had the outside shot, magic still had a solid post up game in 1982. and making your point guard first option is not a good idea on most occasions due to the fact that the point guard should be the one setting people up, not setting himself up.

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Both Magic and Kareem pretty much played their games. Neither stepped up noticeably to me.

kareem went from 24ppg to 20, and only led the lakers in scoring in the finals 1 game.

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The 4.2 ppg increase in '94, while also not having Jordan to take pressure off of him, playing at a slower pace and making 0.9 threes per game vs 0.3 in '91 more than makes up for 52 to 49 FG%. Scoring, shooting percentage and offensive numbers in general were down significantly in '94 compared to '91.

4.2 should have been increased to 8-10 without the greatest scorer of our time around.

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Pippen did play very well in the '91 finals, but I'd say he was better in the '92 finals,

You were much closer then, just like your previous ranking of 2000 Kobe at 6th rather than 2nd was far closer.

those rankings didn't take postseason play into much consideration, which was wrong. these are now the correct rankings.

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Pete never had any type of team success, while Daugherty led a 57 win conference finals team just the next season.

with much more help than pete /shaqattack3234

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Well, Chicago sure was happy they felt that way.

so was san antonio. with a bag of dirt in his place.

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And they were out in the 1st round, Sean Elliott comes back in '95 and they not only win 62 games, but get to the conference finals.

a top 5 player on the on the second worst team in the league wouldn't have made any difference to that series.

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And they were out in the 1st round, Sean Elliott comes back in '95 and they not only win 62 games, but get to the conference finals.

because of the fifth best player on the second worst team in the nba was back? david robinson also turned avery johnson from a peice of trash into a top 4 point guard in '95, robinson also decided to show up for the playoffs this time, and overall they had a deeper roster.

you could probably score 23ppg on a team in which was playing in its first ever season.

Tripucka also averaged 20 ppg on a 46-36 Piston team right before coming to Utah.

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stockton easily dominated more games than barkley, and at a more consistent rate. give stockton moses malone, erving, hawkins, majerle, manning, olajuwon, drexler, and pippen and i'm sure he wins multiple championships.

Stockton rarely dominated games, but you have a history of overrating point guards, especially high assist guys such as Rondo.

Stockton did a great job running the offense, was a pesky defender, and would score here or there, but he almost always failed to step up, assert himself offensively and take over a game with scoring when Utah needed it.

And you're talking about help with Stockton? You're listing players who were either past their primes when they were with Barkley, or Barkley was not in his prime(or remotely close in some cases). Stockton on the otherhand played in his prime with Karl Malone who was one of the best players in the league for Stockton's entire prime, and Eaton, Jeff Malone, Thurl Bailey and Jeff Hornacek in or near Stockton's own prime while those players were around their primes.

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emtpy stats on the second fastest paced team in the league, meanwhile cleveland had the third slowest pace in the league.

Drexler was the better scorer, shooter, rebounder and passer, that makes it obvious that he was better than Ron Harper.

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first of all price wasn't even in the cavs top 2 best players of the regular season

at Price not being a top 2 player on the team, and yeah, Jordan was great, but the Bulls were still largely a 1 man team, the Cavs on the otherhand had at least 4 all-star caliber players.

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terry porter could get to the line at will and love mixing it up with the big boys inside. he also had a great post up game and was awesome in transition too on top of being a fantastic defender either on the perimeter or in transition.

Porter is underrated, but his impact was primarily as a scoring and shooting point guard. Price's creativity, ability to split traps and his pure shooting ability make him more than comparable in that regard, though I'd say Porter was more likely to go off for big scoring nights. With Price being the better shooter, ball-handler and passer as well as a comparable scorer, I just can't say Porter was a better player.

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price was one of my favourite players, and this was probably his peak season, but he did get outplayed by brad daugherty after being the cavs best player in the regular season. the regular season has porter over price by the smallest of margins, but the playoffs make it clear who was the better player between the two after porter helps the blazers into the nba finals. porter had that massive game 7 to close out david robinson and the san antonio spurs with 36 points on 9/18fg, 4/9 from downtown, and 14/16 from the free throw line, along with 4 rebounds 9 assists and 2 steals.

Porter did have a knack for raising his game in the playoffs, and he was often the Blazer taking the big shot. He did step up more than Clyde through the first 3 rounds, but while the Blazers were more of a stacked team, they were Clyde's team. Team success between a team's best and second best player isn't a fair comparison, imo. Great playoff run or not, I've seen both play, and Price's skill set just made him the better player.

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so if hawkins won finals mvp over barkley had they made the finals...he won the finals, who cares?

I didn't care when Duncan wasn't voted Finals MVP in '07 and KG wasn't in '08 among several other examples.

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yeh he played well in those playoffs. good enough for 9th best in the league.

3rd best behind Michael and Magic.

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yeh kareem ranks higher all-time. he is top 2.

Well, it appears we have the same top 2 at least.

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and 1982 was magic's second best year in the nba, ofcourse it is in his prime.

His top 5 years are easy to put in order. '87, '90, '89, '88 and '91.

Players are rarely in their prime at 22 years old, and especially in just their 3rd season, and Magic definitely wasn't one of them considering how much he added to his game later, and how much more his impact increased with added responsibility.

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it means you've got great anticipation. and i lol at they had to "hide" him defensively. he was outstanding at forcing turnovers and was an above average defender overall.

They had to hide him because he couldn't guard quick players and he'd get burned by good shooters.

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Originally Posted by Shep

kareem was a nice player, top 2 in the league infact..but magic was just plain better.on the previous season alone, his numbers took a significant nose dive his free throw percent dropped from 77 to 71, he only managed to get to the free throw line only 5.8 times per game, points were down 26.2 to 23.9, he recorded single digits in rebounds per game for the first time in his career and halved what he averaged just 6 years earlier 10.3 to 8.7, assists went down 3.4 to 3, and blocks went down 2.9 to 2.7. in all, it was obvious that kareem could not produce at the level he did in the 70's and 1980

Kareem may have been top 2 behind Moses.

He did decline a bit in '82, there was the ankle injury that kept him out 6 games, Pat Riley's short-lived experiment to have him focus on defense/rebounding and score less, and a midseason slump that had some wondering if he was done. But he finished the season strong, here's what Pat Riley said after Kareem had 41 points, 19 rebounds, 3 assists and 5 blocks on 17/27 shooting including the free throws to send the game into OT, 4 of the 6 Laker points in the 1st OT and 5 of the 11 Laker points in the 2nd OT.

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Originally Posted by Pat Riley

"Kareem, the guy never left, he's never going anywhere," said Los Angeles coach Pat Riley. "It was a difficult game Thursday night. For him to come back tonight showed me the guy's got just about everything he always had."

And here's what Robert Parish said after Kareem scored 35 on 16/20 shooting including 12 in the 4th quarter to help the Lakers come back from down 20 without Magic.

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Originally Posted by Robert Parish

"There's not much you can do when Kareem gets the ball down there. You just try to deny him position, but that's easier said than done," said Celtics center Robert Parish,

Kareem had numerous other big 4th quarters. This was an example of how great the difference was between them as scorers. Kareem was almost always the guy they went to late in games, that usually isn't a case with centers who are easier to double, but Kareem was also a solid foul shooter for his position. Here's Bernard King talking about his team being able to play man to man defense with Kareem out of the lineup.

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Originally Posted by Bernard King

"Sure, having Kareem out of there made a difference," said Bernard King, who scored 20 of his game-high 33 points in the first half for the Warriors. "With him out we could play real strong man-to-man defense."

That's what I was talking about, despite the Lakers talented, he was still the only Laker who would consistently draw double teams.

And here's Magic talking about where they also missed him.

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Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

"They could do a lot of different things when they didn't have to worry about the big guy in there," said the Lakers' Magic Johnson. "They took advantage of that situation by running hard, getting inside and taking advantage of some mismatches."

That's what the 3rd best shot blocker in the league does. There's no way to understate Kareem's advantages as a scorer and defensive player.

The statistical decline isn't that great either. Minutes dropped, scoring was equal to '78 and barely lower than '80. The Lakers were a much better rebounding team in '82 than '81, and assist and block declines were insignificant. His scoring was boosted in '81 by the 45 games when Magic was out and he averaged 28.8 vs the 37 games with Magic when he averaged 22.9. And he was averaging over 25 with Westhead in '82 before Magic cried about Westhead's half court offense and got him fired.

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and it was now magic johnson's team.

It's common knowledge that it was Kareem's team until the '86-'87 season.

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although he might not have had the outside shot, magic still had a solid post up game in 1982. and making your point guard first option is not a good idea on most occasions due to the fact that the point guard should be the one setting people up, not setting himself up.

Magic did not have a post game yet, that's just a false. Most of the teams that have won a championship with a point guard as their best player have also won with them as their 1st option.

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kareem went from 24ppg to 20, and only led the lakers in scoring in the finals 1 game.

The Lakers had a lot of balance, especially with McAdoo playing so well.

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4.2 should have been increased to 8-10 without the greatest scorer of our time around.

He stepped up more than enough considering how much his team exceeded even his coaches expectations. Averaging 26-28 just wasn't his game at any point.

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those rankings didn't take postseason play into much consideration, which was wrong. these are now the correct rankings.

That explains why those are closer to being accurate, the playoffs have to be considered, but you now go way overboard when comparing to an 82 game season.

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david robinson also turned avery johnson from a peice of trash into a top 4 point guard in '95

at you acting like David Robinson was Steve Nash when it comes to making players better.

The other day, I talked at some length about “statistical plus/minus,” which is just a regression of pure adjusted +/- on the conventional boxscore stats. In that post, I looked into the possibility of predicting the following season using a weighted average of the 3 previous seasons’ SPM scores, but I realize that I sort of skimmed over the statistical +/- metric itself — what are its strengths and weaknesses? What kind of players does it overrate and underrate?

In an effort to better understand the metric and answer these questions, I calculated the career leaders in SPM (combined NBA + ABA, minimum 15,000 career MP) through last Saturday’s games. Here’s the list:

Tripucka also averaged 20 ppg on a 46-36 Piston team right before coming to Utah.

yeh, then they traded him and made a conference, made 3 nba finals, and won 2 championships.

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Stockton rarely dominated games, but you have a history of overrating point guards, especially high assist guys such as Rondo.

stockton dominated more games than barkley. and i rate point guards in the correct spot, but you have a history of overrating scorers, especially high scoring point guard.

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Stockton did a great job running the offense, was a pesky defender, and would score here or there, but he almost always failed to step up, assert himself offensively and take over a game with scoring when Utah needed it.

lol why does "assert" himself mean scoring alot of points? stockton wasn't utah's primary scorer, or even top 2. he was utah's primary set up guy, it was up to the scorers on the team to score points.

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And you're talking about help with Stockton? You're listing players who were either past their primes when they were with Barkley, or Barkley was not in his prime(or remotely close in some cases). Stockton on the otherhand played in his prime with Karl Malone who was one of the best players in the league for Stockton's entire prime, and Eaton, Jeff Malone, Thurl Bailey and Jeff Hornacek in or near Stockton's own prime while those players were around their primes.

the guys i mentioned were close to being the best players at their position. stockton had 1 guy near the best at his position, barkley had numerous.

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Drexler was the better scorer, shooter, rebounder and passer, that makes it obvious that he was better than Ron Harper.

drexler put up numbers on a sub .500 team. it is much harder to put up numbers on a almost 60 win team than it is on a almost 40 win team.

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at Price not being a top 2 player on the team, and yeah, Jordan was great, but the Bulls were still largely a 1 man team, the Cavs on the otherhand had at least 4 all-star caliber players.

and price wasn't even top 3 after the playoffs, daugherty had overtaken him by that stage the greatest player of all time had a legendary series and the series winning field goal. scottie pippen also stepped up his play with 15.0ppg, 8.6rpg, 4.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.8bpg. and horace grant had a huge rebounding series and was great overall, averaging 10.4ppg, 13.0rpg, 2.4apg, 1.2spg, and 1.2bpg.

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Porter is underrated, but his impact was primarily as a scoring and shooting point guard. Price's creativity, ability to split traps and his pure shooting ability make him more than comparable in that regard, though I'd say Porter was more likely to go off for big scoring nights. With Price being the better shooter, ball-handler and passer as well as a comparable scorer, I just can't say Porter was a better player.

price was the best player on a team that won 42 games and lost in the first round. porter was the second best player on a team that had the second best record in the nba and made the nba finals. then you take into consideration how much better defensively porter was, then you have an easy decision.

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Porter did have a knack for raising his game in the playoffs, and he was often the Blazer taking the big shot. He did step up more than Clyde through the first 3 rounds, but while the Blazers were more of a stacked team, they were Clyde's team. Team success between a team's best and second best player isn't a fair comparison, imo. Great playoff run or not, I've seen both play, and Price's skill set just made him the better player.

congrats on being able to see both porter and price play. i too have had the honor of seeing both play. the result of such viewings are that porter was better than price in 1990.

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I didn't care when Duncan wasn't voted Finals MVP in '07 and KG wasn't in '08 among several other examples.

both duncan and garnett should have been final's mvp's tho. if hawkins played like that he would have actually deserved finals mvp.

lol where is 1982? easily his second best season in the nba. atleast your best season is correct the correct order is actually 1987, 1982, 1991, 1985, 1989.

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Players are rarely in their prime at 22 years old, and especially in just their 3rd season, and Magic definitely wasn't one of them considering how much he added to his game later, and how much more his impact increased with added responsibility.

barkley was one of them, magic was another one. he averaged career high's in steals and rebounds, was the lakers (and the nba's) best player, led the lakers to 57 wins which was the best record in the west, was the mvp of the playoffs and finals, and had a record of 12-2 in the playoffs en route to the nba championship.

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They had to hide him because he couldn't guard quick players and he'd get burned by good shooters.

trash observation here. he was an above average defender.

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Kareem may have been top 2 behind Moses.

kareem was easily better than malone, as was bird and erving. magic however, was easily the best player in the league.

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The statistical decline isn't that great either. Minutes dropped, scoring was equal to '78 and barely lower than '80. The Lakers were a much better rebounding team in '82 than '81, and assist and block declines were insignificant. His scoring was boosted in '81 by the 45 games when Magic was out and he averaged 28.8 vs the 37 games with Magic when he averaged 22.9. And he was averaging over 25 with Westhead in '82 before Magic cried about Westhead's half court offense and got him fired.

nice quotes. but it doesn't change the fact that kareem wasn't the lakers the best player. now lets check out what kareem did in game 5 of the finals: 6 points 4 rebounds

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It's common knowledge that it was Kareem's team until the '86-'87 season.

magic took over beginning in 1982

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Magic did not have a post game yet, that's just a false. Most of the teams that have won a championship with a point guard as their best player have also won with them as their 1st option.

magic might have had a better post game later on in his career, but he still had a nice post game in 1982. how many team's have won a championship with a point guard as the best player?

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The Lakers had a lot of balance, especially with McAdoo playing so well.

yeh, mcadoo played so well he outscored abdul-jabbar over the last 4 games in that series

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He stepped up more than enough considering how much his team exceeded even his coaches expectations. Averaging 26-28 just wasn't his game at any point.

it could have been his game. he could have made adjustments to what his game was due to the fact that he would be missing the league's leading scorer.

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That explains why those are closer to being accurate, the playoffs have to be considered, but you now go way overboard when comparing to an 82 game season.

although 82 games is longer than the playoffs, you play the whole season to get in a good position to play in the playoffs and its how you play in those important games, games in which only half of the leagues teams are lucky enough to even partake in, is which will utimately determine your rank.

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at you acting like David Robinson was Steve Nash when it comes to making players better.

yeh, then they traded him and made a conference, made 3 nba finals, and won 2 championships.

Did I ever say that he was a great NBA player? No, I just said he could score. The guy they traded him for(Adrian Dantley) was not only a better scorer, but a significantly better player.

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stockton dominated more games than barkley. and i rate point guards in the correct spot, but you have a history of overrating scorers, especially high scoring point guard.

at Stockton dominating games like Barkley, much less more than him. There are plenty of examples where Stockton's inability or unwillingness to take over games prevented his team from advancing in the playoffs. See 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

What's my history of overrating high scoring point guards? The only one I remember even rating that high is Kevin Johnson from about '89-'94.

Examples of you overrating high assist guys are '82 Magic, Stockton of course, Rajon Rondo(I know you had him pretty high in the top 10 in 2010) and old Mavericks Jason Kidd(wasn't he top 10 on your 2011 list?).

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lol why does "assert" himself mean scoring alot of points? stockton wasn't utah's primary scorer, or even top 2. he was utah's primary set up guy, it was up to the scorers on the team to score points.

That's because Stockton was limited to that role, great at what he did, but it's why he wasn't as good as the true MVP-caliber players who did take over games.

When Utah's primary scorer Karl Malone was struggling in the playoffs(which happened a fair amount), Utah really would have benefited from Stockton stepping up, and the only occasion I really remember this happening was the '97 WCF.

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the guys i mentioned were close to being the best players at their position. stockton had 1 guy near the best at his position, barkley had numerous.

Stockton played with that 1 player throughout his entire prime and beyond, while Malone was in his prime the entire time Stockton was, and beyond. He had a prime that lasted like a decade, he was among the best players in the NBA that whole time.

Playing with 1 isn't worse than changing teams and playing with those guys at various times. Who was the best player Barkley played with in his prime? Kevin Johnson during his worst season from the time he was an elite PG('89-'94)?

drexler put up numbers on a sub .500 team. it is much harder to put up numbers on a almost 60 win team than it is on a almost 40 win team.

I'm not even talking about the numbers anymore. Drexler was clearly the better scorer, rebounder, passer and shooter. Do you deny any of those things?

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and price wasn't even top 3 after the playoffs, daugherty had overtaken him by that stage the greatest player of all time had a legendary series and the series winning field goal. scottie pippen also stepped up his play with 15.0ppg, 8.6rpg, 4.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.8bpg. and horace grant had a huge rebounding series and was great overall, averaging 10.4ppg, 13.0rpg, 2.4apg, 1.2spg, and 1.2bpg.

Pippen didn't even shoot 40% in the series. Neither Pippen or Grant were all-star caliber players by that point. Hell, Grant barely was in his prime, he made 1 on one of the weakest all-star teams ever, and had somewhat of a case for maybe 1 more in '92.

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price was the best player on a team that won 42 games and lost in the first round. porter was the second best player on a team that had the second best record in the nba and made the nba finals. then you take into consideration how much better defensively porter was, then you have an easy decision.

I'll take better passing, shooting and ball-handling over better defense at the PG position. Price's team won 42 games because of Daugherty missing over 40 games, and Nance missing around 20, iirc.

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congrats on being able to see both porter and price play. i too have had the honor of seeing both play. the result of such viewings are that porter was better than price in 1990.

Nah, the result of viewing these guys play is the conclusion that Price was the better player.

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both duncan and garnett should have been final's mvp's tho. if hawkins played like that he would have actually deserved finals mvp.

I'm not sure if KG should have been MVP, he had a case, but I don't feel strongly about any of the big 3 getting finals MVP. I am leaning towards Duncan deserving the '07 award, though.

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lol where is 1982? easily his second best season in the nba. atleast your best season is correct the correct order is actually 1987, 1982, 1991, 1985, 1989.

1982 is between his 9th and 10th best season. After the 5 I mentioned, '85 and '86 are about even and his 6th/7th best seasons, then '84 is clearly next followed by '82 and '83, and he was the same player in both those seasons, so they can be placed in either order.

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barkley was one of them, magic was another one. he averaged career high's in steals and rebounds, was the lakers (and the nba's) best player, led the lakers to 57 wins which was the best record in the west, was the mvp of the playoffs and finals, and had a record of 12-2 in the playoffs en route to the nba championship.

Barkley was not in his prime until 24/25 in the '87-'88 season or 25/26 in the '88-'89 season. Which is around the normal age a player enters their prime. Magic didn't enter his prime until he was 27 in the '86-'87 season, which is also a normal age to

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trash observation here. he was an above average defender.

You may be the first I've heard say that. A great example of Magic's poor defense is the '90 WCSF. They obviously couldn't put them on KJ, so he guarded Hornacek and got torched, which was part of the reason the Suns upset the Lakers in 5 despite Magic averaging 30.

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kareem was easily better than malone, as was bird and erving. magic however, was easily the best player in the league.

Moses was doing things nobody else was capable of at those times, see his month of February when he averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg including 30+ points in 13 of the 14 games that month, 40+ points 6 times that month and 20+ rebounds six times that month.

Moses had a stretch where he had a game of 53 points(19th in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 FG and 15/18 FT followed by 45 points and 20 rebounds and finally, 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 FG and 11/15 FT. 2 games later, he had 38 points and 32 rebounds including 21 offensive rebounds, he outrebounded the entire Sonics team.

Around this time, Malone's dominance led the Rockets to a 13-2 stretch. He had another stretch with 3 straight 40+ games in late February/early March including 43 points and 23 rebounds, 44 points and 43 points(14 in the 4th quarter).

2 games later, he had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining. 3 games later he had 49 points and 12 rebounds including 22 points in the 4th quarter. And he another pair of 40 point games in late March including 41 points and 18 rebounds(12 points in the 4th quarter) followed by 46 points.

This dominant stretch that began when February started really didn't slow down until April. He had a 35 game stretch where he scored at least 30 points in 28 out of those games.

Magic was probably the 4th or 5th best player that season.

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magic took over beginning in 1982

Go ask Pat Riley or Magic himself.

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magic might have had a better post game later on in his career, but he still had a nice post game in 1982.

Nope.

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how many team's have won a championship with a point guard as the best player?

Walt Frazier definitely did it in '73, arguably '70. He was certainly the 1st option by '73, but more 1.A/1.B with Reed in '70, maybe slightly behind. Magic did it in '87 and '88, arguably '85, so he was 1st option for 2 out of his 3 championships as the best player. Isiah did it in '89 and '90, he was the 1st option for both championships.

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it could have been his game. he could have made adjustments to what his game was due to the fact that he would be missing the league's leading scorer.

It's not that easy, Pippen had a lot of talents, but being a 26-28 ppg scorer wasn't really 1 of them, and it wouldn't have necessarily made him more effective than he was playing the great all around ball he was in '94.

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although 82 games is longer than the playoffs, you play the whole season to get in a good position to play in the playoffs and its how you play in those important games, games in which only half of the leagues teams are lucky enough to even partake in, is which will utimately determine your rank.

I agree it matters, but you get more of an idea of what kind of player someone is from the entire season. Raising your game, or declining in the playoffs can impact someone's ranking for my list, but only if they're pretty close as players to begin with, and 1 series doesn't really determine who the better player is.

Did I ever say that he was a great NBA player? No, I just said he could score. The guy they traded him for(Adrian Dantley) was not only a better scorer, but a significantly better player.

the pistons obviously knew if they were to go deeper into the nba playoffs they had to get rid of the deadweight known as tripuke-a.

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at Stockton dominating games like Barkley, much less more than him. There are plenty of examples where Stockton's inability or unwillingness to take over games prevented his team from advancing in the playoffs. See 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

lol out of those playoffs stockton stepped up his game in 1992, 1994, and 1996 leaving only 1990, 1993, and 1995 as the only seasons where he didn't step up. barkley meanwhile did not step up in:
1987 (disgusting showing in the playoffs, his teams most disappointing player, almost outplayed by mo cheeks)
forget 1988, he did not even make the playoffs
1989 (another disgusting showing, gets outplayed by mo cheeks)
1990 (destroyed in second round)
forget 1992, he did not even make the playoffs
1996 (destroyed by david robinson and the san antonio spurs in the first round)
1997 (almost outplayed by clyde drexler)
1998 (teams most disappointing player, almost outplayed by matt maloney)
1999 (dominated in the first round after winning 62% of all regular season games)

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What's my history of overrating high scoring point guards? The only one I remember even rating that high is Kevin Johnson from about '89-'94.

well you do put a huge emphasis on rating scoring point guards over traditional all-round point guards who are better

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Examples of you overrating high assist guys are '82 Magic, Stockton of course, Rajon Rondo(I know you had him pretty high in the top 10 in 2010) and old Mavericks Jason Kidd(wasn't he top 10 on your 2011 list?).

rondo is 5th in 2010 and kidd is 9th in 2011. nothing wrong with these rankings. rondo is the celtics best player in the regular season and playoffs, including a magic johnson like series against the cleveland cavaliers where he averaged 21/6/12/2 on 54%fg. the celtics make it to game 7 of the nba finals.
kidd, while old, still was the mavericks second best player in the regular season and playoffs. while not having mind blowing numbers, kidd showed leadership, and steady play in dallas's quest to become 2011 nba champions. its not all about stats.

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That's because Stockton was limited to that role, great at what he did, but it's why he wasn't as good as the true MVP-caliber players who did take over games.

stockton was easily more mvp caliber than barkley

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When Utah's primary scorer Karl Malone was struggling in the playoffs(which happened a fair amount), Utah really would have benefited from Stockton stepping up, and the only occasion I really remember this happening was the '97 WCF.

stockton stepped up his game in the playoffs on numerous occasions, such as 1988, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2001 (38 years old), 2002 (39 years old).

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Stockton played with that 1 player throughout his entire prime and beyond, while Malone was in his prime the entire time Stockton was, and beyond. He had a prime that lasted like a decade, he was among the best players in the NBA that whole time.

barkley obviously could not get it done with star players arounds him

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Playing with 1 isn't worse than changing teams and playing with those guys at various times. Who was the best player Barkley played with in his prime? Kevin Johnson during his worst season from the time he was an elite PG('89-'94)?

I'm not even talking about the numbers anymore. Drexler was clearly the better scorer, rebounder, passer and shooter. Do you deny any of those things?

how many wins did these things get drexler

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Pippen didn't even shoot 40% in the series. Neither Pippen or Grant were all-star caliber players by that point. Hell, Grant barely was in his prime, he made 1 on one of the weakest all-star teams ever, and had somewhat of a case for maybe 1 more in '92.

both pippen and grant stepped up their game in that series.

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I'll take better passing, shooting and ball-handling over better defense at the PG position. Price's team won 42 games because of Daugherty missing over 40 games, and Nance missing around 20, iirc.

i'll take better defense, a player who relishes in attacking the basket rather than shoot over a third of his shots behind the arc, great post up game, and who made the nba finals at the pg position.

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Nah, the result of viewing these guys play is the conclusion that Price was the better player.

actually you are misinformed here, the real outcome is that porter is the worthier choice.

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1982 is between his 9th and 10th best season. After the 5 I mentioned, '85 and '86 are about even and his 6th/7th best seasons, then '84 is clearly next followed by '82 and '83, and he was the same player in both those seasons, so they can be placed in either order.

1987
1982
1991
1985
1989
1988
1983
1990

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Barkley was not in his prime until 24/25 in the '87-'88 season or 25/26 in the '88-'89 season. Which is around the normal age a player enters their prime. Magic didn't enter his prime until he was 27 in the '86-'87 season, which is also a normal age to

so barkley is in his prime when he is missing playoff's over deep playoff runs averaging 25/16/6 and 58% magic isn't even in his prime winning finals mvp's

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You may be the first I've heard say that. A great example of Magic's poor defense is the '90 WCSF. They obviously couldn't put them on KJ, so he guarded Hornacek and got torched, which was part of the reason the Suns upset the Lakers in 5 despite Magic averaging 30.

who is talking about 1990 here

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Moses was doing things nobody else was capable of at those times, see his month of February when he averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg including 30+ points in 13 of the 14 games that month, 40+ points 6 times that month and 20+ rebounds six times that month.

Moses had a stretch where he had a game of 53 points(19th in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 FG and 15/18 FT followed by 45 points and 20 rebounds and finally, 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 FG and 11/15 FT. 2 games later, he had 38 points and 32 rebounds including 21 offensive rebounds, he outrebounded the entire Sonics team.

Around this time, Malone's dominance led the Rockets to a 13-2 stretch. He had another stretch with 3 straight 40+ games in late February/early March including 43 points and 23 rebounds, 44 points and 43 points(14 in the 4th quarter).

2 games later, he had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining. 3 games later he had 49 points and 12 rebounds including 22 points in the 4th quarter. And he another pair of 40 point games in late March including 41 points and 18 rebounds(12 points in the 4th quarter) followed by 46 points.

This dominant stretch that began when February started really didn't slow down until April. He had a 35 game stretch where he scored at least 30 points in 28 out of those games.

Magic was probably the 4th or 5th best player that season.

magic was the best, meanwhile moses was all the way down at the 5 position. moses had a good regular season, and by the end of it was ahead of the likes of erving, and abdul-jabber, but still behind bird, and johnson. his poor playoff showing dropped him down the list, considering he dropped 7 points and a staggering 9 percentage points on field goals, on top of blocking less than a shot per game, and getting beaten in the first round.

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Go ask Pat Riley or Magic himself.

i talk to both with great regularity. we all share the same opinion.

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Nope.

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Walt Frazier definitely did it in '73, arguably '70. He was certainly the 1st option by '73, but more 1.A/1.B with Reed in '70, maybe slightly behind. Magic did it in '87 and '88, arguably '85, so he was 1st option for 2 out of his 3 championships as the best player. Isiah did it in '89 and '90, he was the 1st option for both championships.

so 5 in 60 years?

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It's not that easy, Pippen had a lot of talents, but being a 26-28 ppg scorer wasn't really 1 of them, and it wouldn't have necessarily made him more effective than he was playing the great all around ball he was in '94.

the bulls went from averaging 105ppg to 98ppg in 1994, it would have definately made him and the bulls more effective had he picked up the scoring slack.

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I agree it matters, but you get more of an idea of what kind of player someone is from the entire season. Raising your game, or declining in the playoffs can impact someone's ranking for my list, but only if they're pretty close as players to begin with, and 1 series doesn't really determine who the better player is.

it can definately determine that. we learn how players react to different situations, situations that could have them fishing the next day. with these things in mind we realise what kind of player he really is and is ranked according to these findings.

lol out of those playoffs stockton stepped up his game in 1992, 1994, and 1996 leaving only 1990, 1993, and 1995 as the only seasons where he didn't step up.

'92? Stockton managed just 14.3 ppg and 11.2 apg on a terrible 39.7% compared to a 15.8 ppg, 13.7 apg, 48.2% season. Stockton's numbers are lowered by him being forced to leave sit out the second half of game 5. But in the elimination game, Stockton had 18 points and 12 assists, but on 5/19 shooting and 1/8 on 3s with 5 turnovers.

Stockton was extremely quiet in the '94 WCF. He fell from 15.2 ppg and 12.6 apg on 52.8% in the season to 14.4 ppg and 9.4 apg on 41.5% including quiet games of 17 points/6 assists in a key game 5 that pretty much decided if Utah would make it a series, and an elimination game of 13 points and 9 assists on 6/19 shooting.

In the '96 WCF, Stockton dropped to 9.9 ppg and 7.6 apg on 39.7% compared to his season averages of 14.7 ppg and 11.2 apg on 53.8%.

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1987

The Sixers lost in game 1, but Barkley with a sprained ankle had 21 points, 13 rebounds and 6 blocks on 8/15 shooting including the steal and basket to tie the game at 104 with 1:10 remaining.

Barkley led the Sixers with 26 points, 15 rebounds and 3 assists on 9/15 shooting an OT game 2 win. He was the hero in OT with 8 points including a key steal and basket to give the Sixers a 121-120 lead, and then the gamewinner with 11 seconds left.

In game 3, Barkley had 39 points to go along with 9 rebounds on 13/19 shooting and 13/14 from the line, though he did miss a key free throw.

In game 4, Barkley had 25 points, 13 rebounds and 4 assists on 8/10 shooting including 12 points in the 4th quarter.

Though he did have just 12 points and 13 rebounds and 5/19 shooting in game 5. Regardless, it was much better than those Stockton series, and Charles was just a 3rd year player and his play through 4 games was a reason they had a chance to beat a superior opponent.

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1989

In game 1, he didn't dominate thanks to Oakley's physical defense and Knick double teams, but he did still have 22 points, 12 rebounds and 6 assists on 7/12 shooting.

In game 2, Barkley had 30 points, 12 rebounds and 7 assists on 10/17 shooting and 10/11 from the line, though the Knicks did make a comeback, and won by 1 point on a 3 by Trent Tucker.

In game 3, Barkley had 29 points, 11 rebounds and 3 assists on 12/16 shooting, but they lost by 1 in OT on a gamewinner by Gerald Wilkins with 6 seconds remaining.

They had a chance to win the series, but Barkley's play was a reason they competed with a superior team in all 3 games that were decided late in the games.

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1996 (destroyed by david robinson and the san antonio spurs in the first round)

I'd agree more with criticizing Barkley's play in '94 and '95 because he at least had contending teams and was closer to his prime, despite dealing with injuries.

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1997 (almost outplayed by clyde drexler)

Barkley played fine, that said, he was 34 by this time with bad knees and a bad back. No longer a dominant force and no longer the franchise player on his team so I didn't really care what he did.

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1998 (teams most disappointing player, almost outplayed by matt maloney)

He was done by this point.

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1999 (dominated in the first round after winning 62% of all regular season games)

Barkley stepped up a lot.

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well you do put a huge emphasis on rating scoring point guards over traditional all-round point guards who are better

Not really, I chose '02 Kidd in a recent thread over '11 Derrick Rose. In fact, Kidd was the best PG in the league from '99-'04 with the exception of '00.

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rondo is 5th in 2010 and kidd is 9th in 2011. nothing wrong with these rankings. rondo is the celtics best player in the regular season and playoffs, including a magic johnson like series against the cleveland cavaliers where he averaged 21/6/12/2 on 54%fg. the celtics make it to game 7 of the nba finals.

Rondo was a fine player, and he was the standout player of the Cavs series, but Pierce was probably still the man on that team, and the standout player of the ECF vs Orlando, and would have probably been finals MVP had Boston won. Rondo only really stood out in the ECSF.

Top 5 players are at a different level. The Celtics won because of the strength of their whole team, which was 8 deep with quality players, and their team defense.

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kidd, while old, still was the mavericks second best player in the regular season and playoffs. while not having mind blowing numbers, kidd showed leadership, and steady play in dallas's quest to become 2011 nba champions. its not all about stats.

I appreciate what Kidd did for that team with his passing, defense vs bigger players and basketball IQ, as well as his improved 3 point shot, but he was more like a role player by that point. Terry's scoring and clutch play and Chandler's defense and rebounding made them better. Arguably Marion as well.

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stockton was easily more mvp caliber than barkley

He never once got serious MVP consideration.

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stockton stepped up his game in the playoffs on numerous occasions, such as 1988, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2001 (38 years old), 2002 (39 years old).

Already proved you wrong on '92, '94 and '96, which are what I care about more considering they're either Stockton's prime, or pretty close to it. He did finally step up big in '97. And generally did well in a reduced role as he got older, he impressed me in 2000 for example(at least vs Seattle), but the expectations were much lower by this point.

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barkley obviously could not get it done with star players arounds him

He did pretty well with even a limited Kevin Johnson in '93.

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hakeem olajuwon wasn't good enough?

He was 34 and a shell of his former self, Hakeem declined greatly after that 1 year too. Stockton had Malone for their entire primes.

so barkley is in his prime when he is missing playoff's over deep playoff runs averaging 25/16/6 and 58% magic isn't even in his prime winning finals mvp's

The supporting cast matters too.

When Magic has at least as much passing ability as he ever did from '87-'90, a bigger role to produce more as a playmaker, the new found ability to take over a game in a half court situation with his great post game and reliable outside shot, which also made his playmaking even better since the Lakers could run the offense through Magic in the post, it's obvious that he took his game to another level. Those major differences are why that period is Magic's prime.

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magic was the best, meanwhile moses was all the way down at the 5 position. moses had a good regular season, and by the end of it was ahead of the likes of erving, and abdul-jabber, but still behind bird, and johnson.

Moses was the dominant player of the regular season by far, it's not particularly close, this is why despite his disappointing playoff performance(which I've discussed in detail before), is not enough to drop him from his spot as the best player in the '82 season.

I wasn't going back before the Celtic dynasty since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about that era, nor do I care as much. Although I am aware of the Laker dynasty led by Mikan as well as championship teams led by Dolph Schayes as well as Paul Arizin/Neil Johnston.

All this proves is that the value of point guards is overrated which I suspected due to the ball-dominant nature of the position.

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the bulls went from averaging 105ppg to 98ppg in 1994, it would have definately made him and the bulls more effective had he picked up the scoring slack.

Ultimately he did help the Bulls basically match their win total, despite being far less talented with the loss of the greatest player ever, imo. You expect a massive decline after that.

Despite that, Pippen did pick up some of the scoring slack increasing his scoring 3.4 ppg, while he also shot the ball much more efficiently and also stepped up his defense and rebounding. That's even more impressive because he was now the focus of opposing defenses with Jordan not around anymore.

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it can definately determine that. we learn how players react to different situations, situations that could have them fishing the next day. with these things in mind we realise what kind of player he really is and is ranked according to these findings.

I do take into consideration when player's games don't translate as well to the postseason, although I usually have an idea of this based on their skill set in general. For example, Karl Malone often benefited from easy baskets, so his offense usually fell off. David Robinson lacked a good back to the basket game and go to move so his offense usually fell off greatly. Lebron was a poor shooter in '07 and '08 and this got exposed each year. Durant's '10 regular season scoring was partially a result of an excessive amount of FTA, which he wasn't getting in the playoffs, hence his decline.

But there's also just bad match ups/slumps that occur, which can still decide a ranking for me when it's close, but won't make a big difference.

Malone has the accolades, but as a player, I don't think it's close. Karl Malone is one of the least impressive "greats" ever. Not once while watching him play did I think, "holy shit this guy is good." Not once. Charles Barkley on the other hand.... that guy was a monster!

'92? Stockton managed just 14.3 ppg and 11.2 apg on a terrible 39.7% compared to a 15.8 ppg, 13.7 apg, 48.2% season. Stockton's numbers are lowered by him being forced to leave sit out the second half of game 5. But in the elimination game, Stockton had 18 points and 12 assists, but on 5/19 shooting and 1/8 on 3s with 5 turnovers.

overall, stockton had a successful playoffs. the jazz made the conference finals, one of only 4 teams to get to the conference finals, and it was the first time in the history of the franchise they had made it that far.

and why are you mentioning only 1 series? overall he averaged 14.8ppg, 2.9apg, 13.6apg, and 2.1spg. including a masterful 16.0ppg, 3.6rpg, 16.0apg, 2.0spg series against the la clippers, and 14.2ppg, 3.2rpg, 14.0apg, 3.2spg series against gary payton and the seattle supersonics.

as for that final game stockton was playing out of his game by shooting too much because karl malone was being passive, only taking 14 shots.

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Stockton was extremely quiet in the '94 WCF. He fell from 15.2 ppg and 12.6 apg on 52.8% in the season to 14.4 ppg and 9.4 apg on 41.5% including quiet games of 17 points/6 assists in a key game 5 that pretty much decided if Utah would make it a series, and an elimination game of 13 points and 9 assists on 6/19 shooting.

again, 1 series. the jazz made the conference finals again, 1 out of only 4 teams to do so, and lost to the eventual champion, and much stronger houston rockets.

they shouldn't have even been in the wcf in the first place, but they destroyed the powerful san antonio spurs in 4 games in the first round without home court advantage, then defeated the team that just got done beating the team with the best record in the nba, all while jeff hornacek was still getting used to his new surroundings.

stockton was once again forced to take shots in game 7 due to other people not stepping up.

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In the '96 WCF, Stockton dropped to 9.9 ppg and 7.6 apg on 39.7% compared to his season averages of 14.7 ppg and 11.2 apg on 53.8%.

one series and another wcf appearance 1 of only 4 teams to do so defeated the san antonio spurs again without homecourt advantage.

stockton didn't have a particularily good wcf, but a main reason behind that was due to him being matched up with the best point guard in the nba, and also one of the best defenders in the league. stockton was only a top 3 point guard by this stage. but lets have a look at what he did in the first 2 rounds:

stockton was also his teams best player in the elimination game 7 against seattle, leading the jazz in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

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The Sixers lost in game 1, but Barkley with a sprained ankle had 21 points, 13 rebounds and 6 blocks on 8/15 shooting including the steal and basket to tie the game at 104 with 1:10 remaining.

Barkley led the Sixers with 26 points, 15 rebounds and 3 assists on 9/15 shooting an OT game 2 win. He was the hero in OT with 8 points including a key steal and basket to give the Sixers a 121-120 lead, and then the gamewinner with 11 seconds left.

In game 3, Barkley had 39 points to go along with 9 rebounds on 13/19 shooting and 13/14 from the line, though he did miss a key free throw.

In game 4, Barkley had 25 points, 13 rebounds and 4 assists on 8/10 shooting including 12 points in the 4th quarter.

Though he did have just 12 points and 13 rebounds and 5/19 shooting in game 5. Regardless, it was much better than those Stockton series, and Charles was just a 3rd year player and his play through 4 games was a reason they had a chance to beat a superior opponent.

beside points and blocks, barkley decreased in every way. his assists and steals were more than halved, and his rebounding was decreased by 2 per game, along with the drop in field goal percent.

and then, as you mentioned, was his no show for the elimination game.

the main reason they had a chance to beat a superior opponent was because the players around barkley stepped up more.

roy hinson went from 14/6/1/1/2 48% to 17/5/1/1/2 60%fg
julius erving went from 17/4/3/1/2 to 18/5/3/1/1
and mo cheeks went from 16/3/8/3/0 to 18/3/9/2/1

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In game 1, he didn't dominate thanks to Oakley's physical defense and Knick double teams, but he did still have 22 points, 12 rebounds and 6 assists on 7/12 shooting.

In game 2, Barkley had 30 points, 12 rebounds and 7 assists on 10/17 shooting and 10/11 from the line, though the Knicks did make a comeback, and won by 1 point on a 3 by Trent Tucker.

In game 3, Barkley had 29 points, 11 rebounds and 3 assists on 12/16 shooting, but they lost by 1 in OT on a gamewinner by Gerald Wilkins with 6 seconds remaining.

They had a chance to win the series, but Barkley's play was a reason they competed with a superior team in all 3 games that were decided late in the games.

they got swept in the first round. barkley, again, was nowhere near where the sixers needed him to be, and he was outplayed by maurice cheeks, who showed how a star player should step up in times of crisis.

ron anderson also stepped up more than barkley, averaging 20.7ppg, 5.3rpg, and 4.3apg.

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I'd agree more with criticizing Barkley's play in '94 and '95 because he at least had contending teams and was closer to his prime, despite dealing with injuries.

atleast they made it past the first round in '94, and '95

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Barkley played fine, that said, he was 34 by this time with bad knees and a bad back. No longer a dominant force and no longer the franchise player on his team so I didn't really care what he did.

still a top 2 power forward and one of the best 12 players on the planet.

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He was done by this point.

...

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Barkley stepped up a lot.

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Not really, I chose '02 Kidd in a recent thread over '11 Derrick Rose. In fact, Kidd was the best PG in the league from '99-'04 with the exception of '00.

thats funny, considering i have rose over kidd in that argument. gary payton was the best point guard in '99, '00, and '01. it was kidd from '02-'04, and '07.

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Rondo was a fine player, and he was the standout player of the Cavs series, but Pierce was probably still the man on that team, and the standout player of the ECF vs Orlando, and would have probably been finals MVP had Boston won. Rondo only really stood out in the ECSF.

Top 5 players are at a different level. The Celtics won because of the strength of their whole team, which was 8 deep with quality players, and their team defense.

pierce wasn't even top 2 on the celtics roster. no way pierce wins finals mvp with his 18/5/3 on 44%fg, especially when rondo is getting 14/6/8/2, including a nice 19/12/10/2 triple double in their game 2 win. kg also probably outplayed pierce in the finals.

I appreciate what Kidd did for that team with his passing, defense vs bigger players and basketball IQ, as well as his improved 3 point shot, but he was more like a role player by that point. Terry's scoring and clutch play and Chandler's defense and rebounding made them better. Arguably Marion as well.

all nice peices, but kidd was easily their second best player by a wide margin in both the regular season, and playoffs. kidd was alot closer to nowitzki as the mavs best player than any other player was to kidd himself.

He was 34 and a shell of his former self, Hakeem declined greatly after that 1 year too. Stockton had Malone for their entire primes.

a top 2 center, and top 5 overall player wasn't enough , throw in a top 2 shooting guard? still not enough

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I don't really care

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The supporting cast matters too.

When Magic has at least as much passing ability as he ever did from '87-'90, a bigger role to produce more as a playmaker, the new found ability to take over a game in a half court situation with his great post game and reliable outside shot, which also made his playmaking even better since the Lakers could run the offense through Magic in the post, it's obvious that he took his game to another level. Those major differences are why that period is Magic's prime.

he was much more effective in 1982 in his youth. he only added those things because he was getting old and losing his physical abilities.

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Moses was the dominant player of the regular season by far, it's not particularly close, this is why despite his disappointing playoff performance(which I've discussed in detail before), is not enough to drop him from his spot as the best player in the '82 season.

larry bird and magic johnson were the best 2 players from the regular season after leading their respective teams to the best 2 records in the nba. moses malone dropped from 3rd in the regular season to 5th after the playoffs due to his poor individual, and team showing in the post season. the houston rockets bowed out in the first round, winning only 1 game, and the losing margin being 15, and 21 points in the losses. moses dropped 7 points, and dropped 9 percentage points off his field goals, he also did not manage to block a shot per game, in fact he averaged 3 times more turnovers than blocks for the series.

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This quote from Magic proves he does not agree

i'm sorry, what does this quote prove?

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I wasn't going back before the Celtic dynasty since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about that era, nor do I care as much

say no more

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Ultimately he did help the Bulls basically match their win total, despite being far less talented with the loss of the greatest player ever, imo. You expect a massive decline after that.

Despite that, Pippen did pick up some of the scoring slack increasing his scoring 3.4 ppg, while he also shot the ball much more efficiently and also stepped up his defense and rebounding. That's even more impressive because he was now the focus of opposing defenses with Jordan not around anymore.

but the ball was in his hands alot more, or there was the opportunity to be in his hands, so there was more than ample opportunity to step up his scoring.

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I do take into consideration when player's games don't translate as well to the postseason, although I usually have an idea of this based on their skill set in general. For example, Karl Malone often benefited from easy baskets, so his offense usually fell off. David Robinson lacked a good back to the basket game and go to move so his offense usually fell off greatly. Lebron was a poor shooter in '07 and '08 and this got exposed each year. Durant's '10 regular season scoring was partially a result of an excessive amount of FTA, which he wasn't getting in the playoffs, hence his decline.

But there's also just bad match ups/slumps that occur, which can still decide a ranking for me when it's close, but won't make a big difference.

each to their own. the playoffs are where dreams are made and broken, it is why players play the game. i expect big time players to step up big, sometime it will be the difference in determining rankings.