Life is a journey. The destination is death. This blog is all about the musings of a sojourner in her thirties, curious about the stops, the fellow passengers, the driver(s), the conditions of travel and the highlights and lowlights. All the while in a place of tranquility: the sanctuary.

Monday, January 9, 2012

MGTOW - good or bad for women?

There are three phrases that strike fear into the hearts of modern marriage-minded women.
'Marriage on the decline', 'MGTOW' (Men going their own way), 'Marriage strike'.

A woman's greatest fear is abandonment. Or worse, never to have been approached in the first place.
Feminism encourages women to hide this fear.
Some do it well.
But here-in lies the problem: a fear will always remain as a fear unless it is resolved.

A quirk of Nature results in the following observations:
A man does not need a woman. He is capable of being a solitary entity his whole life, and he won't care.
His work/passion/hobby is his primary focus.

A woman needs people around her. The most efficient way to increase the entourage who share her DNA is to team up with a man. So technically, a woman needs a man.

A man's greatest physical need is sexual fulfilment (according to Dr Kevin Lehman). A man's greatest social need is his freedom.
These two needs are in direct conflict with each other. Marriage (read: a woman) satisfies one at the expense of the other.
But in the old days, men often chose marriage and hoped for the best with the other need. Sometimes it worked out well.
Other times it did not.

Then feminism separated 'woman' from 'marriage'.

All of a sudden, a man could eat his cake and have it too. A win-win situation!
Being a logical being, he did.

A woman's natural reaction to MGTOW would be something like this:
"Oh no, don't go! Stay!"

Because MGTOW reduces the number of men in her 'parade'.
Because she is a good communicator and needs people around her to communicate with.
But it is a counterproductive reaction.

Because MGTOW is a natural part of manhood. It is a form of 'Initiation'.

In some cultures in the world, initiation practices are still encouraged. Men have their obligatory journey into the forest and women have their preparation rites for womanhood.
There are still remnants of the original deal in modern culture, but usually in a religious context, such as 'Bar Mitzvah' and 'Bat Mitzvah' and 'Confirmation'.

But in the real deal, a boy on the cusp of manhood would be forcibly taken literally from his bed at night and dumped into dangerous terrain, usually by older men from the same village.

His mother and sisters would cry out, "Oh no, don't take him away" but to no avail.

Because the village elders knew that a man who had not been initiated was not a man.
He posed a risk to the whole village if he did not possess the skills of manhood. He might as well be one of the women, but without her function, either. So this man was useful to all concerned.

The women would protest, of course. But they knew thay had to let the boy go. Because, assuming he survived the rigors of initiation, he would come back a fully-fledged man, a useful member of society.
If he never came back, they would miss him. But he had not made the cut. It was a stigma for that family. They were better off in the long run without him.

There are many false imitations of initiation in today's society. Inner city gangs are a prime example.

Under feminism, many men lost their male 'elders'. Because he was taken away from them by a dominant matriarch. There was no-one to raid their homes in the middle of the night and yank them from their beds into the terrifying unknown, so necessary for the development of their sense of masculine self.

MGTOW might be one of the natural retorts to this male crisis: the lack of initiation.

The motivation for MGTOW in this present clime is certainly not for the purposes of benefiting women.

But in a roundabout way, it could be the best thing a man can do.
It could be the best demonstration of 'inner Game'.

Let the initiation begin.

The heroes will return to the village, with a lot to offer the village.
The women and children and of course the elders will be there to welcome them back to the fold.

@ Fidel,If this is the case, it will be truly sad. I like to think "never say never" but that may be naively optimistic.

@ Unknown

Your point is well taken.I shall tackle your criticisms one by one.

Solipsism:My thoughts and ideas do not come from 'nowhere'. I am forming them based on what I have learned from wiser men and women than me. I am definitely not stuck in a world of my own, closed off from other ideas. I think I am in fact more open to ideas than most people are prepared to be, certainly more than I have ever been in my life.

Hypergamy: I didn't make up this term or this phenomenon. It is what it is. Many women have their own brand of hypergamy. For some, it's find a superior man and keep trading up.For me and women with my philosophy, it is, find your No 1 and stick with him. I do not judge either position. Each to his (or in this case, her) own.

Jungle:I talk a lot about Nature. Because Nature is a big part of how we live.However, the pursuit of the 'higher things' you mention is what prompts me to go the extra mile. I do not see Man as utility for woman, nor the other way round. But remember, all human beings, irrespective of gender want to love and be loved. In whichever way that manifests itself.I am presenting one possible way, out of many, that this can be achieved, in the environment we currently find ourselves.I honestly do not know a better way. Do you?If you do, I would be ingratiated to you if you could show me.I certainly know all the ways which don't work, though...I am sure you do too.As do most adults today.

"The heroes will return to the village, with a lot to offer the village."

As an MGTOW, we did not set out to be heroes, and we're not going to return to the village. We left of our own accord because the Village no longer wanted us, had nothing to offer us, and became downright hostile to us. The Village forced us to find another way.

First, the hero thing has to stay. Because no woman wants 'ordinary'. You don't want to be ordinary anyway.

Second, you sound like you have good 'inner Game'.You presented your case to me in a gentlemanly manner. No criticism, no attacking. Just your thoughts and experiences. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

For a man like you who is in control of his own destiny, don't see leaving the Village as being 'forced out'. An initiated man cannot be re-initiated.No, your particular frame should be (and not all men are in this privileged position):"I am leaving the village to allow time for THE VILLAGE to sort ITS head out."

You will check in from time to time to see if the Village now meets your standards. If yes, you WILL be a hero to someone. If not, rinse and repeat.

I don't see any other way, for you.

The good news is, the village is already changing. :-)I, for example, am just another woman in the village. A year ago, I did not have these ideas. I am learning fast.And I am usually a slow burner.Imagine what the really smart gals are capable of...

A comment again. There is so much driving men to MGTOW that you have not touched on, and I don't believe that the initiation thing is valid.

With the legal system the way it is at the moment, the only way for a man to protect himself is to GHOW. Can you really see the laws changing in our lifetime, when so many people depend on legalised misandry for a living ? ( Feminist Law Profs, Sexual Grievance Industry, Family courts, etc. ).It's a very hostile, unpleasant village for men.

On the initiation thing, I was conscripted at 18 to fight in a bush war that I judged immoral. We grew up fast. That was initiation. I slowly became MGTOW over the years since.

If initiation to you, means having a monstrously hard time and getting thru to the other side, well..... For many MGTOWs, their initiation were horrendous divorces, where their children were denied them, they had to pay people who cheated on them for the rest of their lives, they faced false accusations, wrecked lives.In other words, their 'initiation' caused them to GTOW.

There are things that you get right in this blog post but equating initiation into manhood to MGTOW does not work. The first is an indication of a working social structure and the other is an indication of a broken social structure.

That doctor who claims that men's greatest physical need is sex needs to return to school and this time, actually do some study instead of smoking pot all day, probably.

Last time I had anything close to a sexual act with a woman I had just hit my 22 year on planet Earth.

I am not a closeted homosexual nor am I asexual. I have a regular sex drive for a man my age and now, 6 years past the last physical experience I've had with a woman, I'm happy and fulfilled in my celibacy.

Religious? I abhor religion. Do I have issues with ''intimacy''? Not really, as I am far more emotional and sensitive to the needs of any person than most people are or have the potential to be.

I declined the slavery of sexual bewitchment after I noticed how easy it is for a handful of men to have sex; sex with intelligent, cultured, educated, attractive or average women.

Without having to work for it. I mean, these guys only had to send a text message at 4 in the morning and women would come running to satisfy Mr. Bad Boy.

Whereas women told me how much they valued an emotional connection and tenderness, patience, and dedication from a man for them to be ready to sleep with with him.

You could have grabbed my chin with a plate when I was in a nightclub(grudegly dragged to such aloathsome location) and I became aware that the same women who said the politically correct nonsense had in fact entered the men's bathroom to have sex with random men, LOL.

And they didn't even had to get the women drunk. So, after almost 2 decades of being told that women had a need for good men and that the douchebags were shunned by quality women, I decided that I wasn't going to be the one who pays for the leftovers of some guy who couldn't have cared less for the women he slept with had he tried with his life on the line.

What do I earn by waiting for a woman to ''mature''? Stds, for one. The vast majority of women are going to suffer from HPV and from herpes; herpes is a lifelong std that leaves scars and is quite expensive to deal with, and HPV has been linked to oral and prostrate cancer.

Those, and a multitude of women women have undergone abortions in their teens and 20's which leads to a dastically reduced fertility(as if women weren're already fertility-unsound as they enter their 30's), in turn leading to birth defects and downs syndrome and so forth in the newborn baby.

Am I to end up a slave of this extremely draconian and anti-male govt. via the alimony and the child-support that a woman would undoubtedly steal from me as she'd grow bored of having sex with a man who isn't an Alpha male or a bad boy?

LOL.

Man, I am not Brad Pitt, nor Albert Einstein, but my parents didn't raise a fool and if I had a relationship (''sexual'' or emotional) with a woman, I'd lose out so badly.

At almost the age of 30, I am financially solvent. I've inhereted the farms and the lands and the houses of both sets of grandparents. I have a good job, and I'm thinking of going back to school to further my education.

I have far more money than most of the men who were silly enough to provide commitment and it's bonuses - if we're having a conversation about women - I have none of the stress and none of the physical ailments caused by having to be what society deems to be a responsible man.

I don't have stds. I am not a risk for false rape reports because I don't keep any contact with women. Last time I actually looked at a random woman in the street was again, at the age of 22.

I won't even talk with them when my sharp shoot suit and my slick hair catches their eye. I have lost all of the interest in dealing with women, and I pretend to be completely oblivious to their presence.

You guys could try it out? I've had many an attractive woman feel bad about herself because I completely ignored them.

The tables have turned and now, most of the women in their late 20's and upwards do find me attractive but knowing that they've spent their teens and their early 20's to late 20's servicing douchebags, I'd rather read a good book, play a good game, and be called bitter and a women-hater as their eggs are begggining to rot and they can't find a sucker to pay for spoiled goods, LOL.

Don't worry, guys. As the years die on us, our sex drive comes to be under our command and only the most extreme of beautiful women can make the effort of looking at them.

Women, on the other hand, lose their temporary beauty(18-25) and their body turns into jelly. Unless you want to date one of those gym freaks who spends her entire time grooming and working out and watching her calories, LOL.

Huh,and just in case someone points out that I can't have children without women; Money makes the world run around and around.

More than enough women who are in good healthy and with good genes are willing to rent their womb for a price that I can more than vastly afford, and one day the artificial womb that is being developed by Asian scientists is going to replace the need for a human womb.

Doesn't matter how it all pans out. If you are a smart man, and don't let yourself be trapped by women and their only power(sex), you can live a very good life and you'll be able to do whatever you want and go wherever you want, capitalizing on the lack of obligations and financial or emotional responsabilities to a Civilization that cares not for the men in it, and the women will be left out as bitter old cat ladies, LOL!

Therefore, all of the avoidance women display to the men who aren't 6 feet tall or 200 pounds in solid muscles, or have a criminal record as long as the French Tower, is a blessing in disguise.

The very vast majority of men is starting to become aware of how most of the married men are without sex at the insistence of the wifey.

What is in it for them? At least, in decades long past, the men died prematurely at the exchange of a bit of sex, nowadays most men gotta slave-it-up and they'll end up in jail for matrimonial rape if they try to seduce their wives, ahaha.

No, thanks. Funny enough, in my many trips to rich Asian Countries, I notice that the women are far more friendlly and open to dating the men who aren't fashion models while being independent and educated.

I'm telling my younger brothers and my cousins and friends to forget about white or black women and to, if they are interested in relationships, to move to Japan or South Korea; the land of beautiful women who don't age and are, most of the time, pleasant to be with and not entitled.

I don't have much to say as the guy who posted before me pretty much nailed it, but I wanted to add that ''game'' is only workable in America, and in seedy-looking bars where women are left drunk and more prone to sleeping with a guy who ain't packing a million bucks in his wallet or looks like that Twilight vampire guy.

By following such a base-animal method to indulge in sex, a man faces 2 paths;

1) She accuses him of false rape report.2) You become the loser who defines his masculinity and his value as a human being on how many women he can ''game''.

Grow away from that. MGTOW is not the path to manhood, a sort of detour that men undertake as to evaluate what is a good woman and what is a gold-digger or a sluuuut; it's where a man sheds his weakness, his socially and evolutionary imprinted desire for children and women.

No man wants a woman who spreading her legs during the duration of her teens and 20's and as she approaches the ripe female age of 30, decides that she can't get the PUA/Douchebag/Johnny Depp to commit to her.

What is a man to do? Find a virgin? LOL. I have friends who made it a hobby of having sex with religious women, and the women later married the omega males aka, religious men, without these poor guys ever finding out about the women's past.

When I was 13 years old, there was a guy in my class who had flunked the year several times. He was 16 and instead of playing football like the rest of us, he was banging our female classmates in the bathroom and getting them pregnant, LOL!

10 years have gone past, and most of the men who were kids back then, my classmates, can't find a girlfriend whilst all of the girls who were putting out so young are married to guys who have great careers.

Great incentive we have here, right? Study like a horse or work whatever job you have to do to support/play the mockery role of being a woman's equal, for some other guy who is now snorting coke and living with mom be laughing at you as he never payed child support for the dozens of kids he has - while you are raising some thug's hellspwan, LOL.

Or what is, then? Go to a 3rd world Country where people die of a tooth infection to find a wife?

Sure thing. There's this famous mgtow in the community who at the age of 50 or so moved to Mexico to find a good woman. Turns out, his wife cheated on him with a traveling musician.

He still insists that men must move to war-ridden Countries or to Countries that have no eletrical power, all in the name of a bit of sex.

Amazing. Luckly this guy is in his 70s. He'll be dead soon as will all of his retarded generation. They lack the capacity to understand a world without pandering to women, a reality of men being true to themselves and telling sex and women to go to hell; we can manage quite fine, thank you very much, LOL!

Another remark of yours that I find quite amusing is your continuous allusions to the jungle.

Are you for real? Even as a domesticated male, feminized by this Matriarchy, I can survive without the support our decaying Civilization.

Can you survive without your teeth-whitening procedures? Can you go weeks foraging for food while having a stance of keen awareness of your surroundings in case some crazy bear wants to eat you up?

Can you fight-off wild beasts? Do you have the physical strenght to choke a man to unconsciousness?

What would you do without L'Oreal and brazilian waxes?!

More important than anything, how would you survive if I was to turn my back to you and wish you good luck as my grandfather, who was once in an airplane crash, as the only male survivor in the Amazonian Forest, he turns to the women who survived, wished them good luck and went his way, LOL.

What a boss. Yeah, he obviously survived it, fathered my father and taught me everything about survivalism and at the age of 18 dragged my ass to the Marine corp. recrution booth and had me sign-up.

Now I laugh at all the lesser men who can't survive a tooth ache without filling their effiminate mouths with painkillers and then women, they are the most hilarious of them all; they really do believe that I'd protect them if the need was there.

Honey, you weren't made for the jungle. Your female ancestors stayed indoors while the poor bastards had to fight tigers with teeth the size of longswords for the meat your great-great-great grandmother ate.

You don't add anything of value to my life? You're gone. You don't want to go that way, real men don't pay much attention to weak human beings.

Like I have said before, some of you men have been badly hurt.I know that.

I want to respond to three recurring themes:About initiation, some of you disagree that initiation could be linked to MGTOW.

Some 'experts' see initiation as a reaction to a severely unpleasant and stressful episode in a man's life.In that sense, MGTOW is very much a process that starts off the 'separation' phase of initiation.

Here is the link to one such psychologist/therapist's work. It is extrememly long and arduous to read, but I think it is helpful.

http://www.christoscenter.com/toward.html

True initiation, like someone gave an example of being enscripted in the army, is I agree, a more positive kind of initiation.

Thanks for allowing me to make myself clearer on this point.

In response to Fidel, I expressed sadness over the fact that all or a lot of MGTOW could be gone for good.

Because for me, (and I have taken off my 'masculine eye goggles' right now - I am now in full female mode), the saddest message I am getting from your collective voices is that no-one will miss you. No-one cares to see the back of you. Someone even used the word 'hostile'.

Well, now you know, there is at least one woman in the village who will miss you :-) but who won't stop you doing whatever it is that you need to do for yourself. Because you are free to make your own choice.

Hopefully other women will leave comments to that effect on this post.I know I am not alone thinking this.

The second theme relates to complaints about the laws.OK, I happen to be rather close to this issue. More than I would like.Again, I KNOW.

Many of you (men and women) linked to the MRA are trying to make the laws fairer.

So, what do you need from the rest of us?Vocal support? Written support in the form of petitions? How can we help?Tell us and we will be only too happy to help.

Seriously.

The third theme is about the bad women you have encountered, eg. as decribed by Anonymous @ 8.59 AM.I don't like them anymore than you do. No need to tell me about them. (But I get that you are trying to make a specific point). I left the old herd because of them.

I used the word 'Jungle' once, in response to someone's comment about it.

Yes, I mention 'Nature' a lot...reason for this is given elsewhere.

"Can you fight-off wild beasts? Do you have the physical strength to choke a man to unconsciousness?"

Errr...no, I couldn't do either. But I am not particularly seeking to master these two skills, ya know? It's not really my priority right now :-)If I find myself in a situation requiring these two manoeuvres, I shall die. I accept that.Hopefully, in the second case, if I needed to use self-defence, I could use my God-given gift of the gab to negotiate my way out of trouble?

:-)

Just teasing...seriously, though, amidst all the über-serious comments, it's nice to smile/laugh a bit.

You make a point that some guys haven't mentioned so far on this post.That it is still possible to encounter a 'bad woman' abroad. Same as there are good girls in the West, there are also bad girls elsewhere.

There's good and bad everywhere, no?

Unless you are going to tell me that ALL the girls in your class were getting friendly with your classmate who kept failing.

If that's the case, we should just pack up shop and go home. NOW.Because there would be no point to any of it...

Interesting post.I have a friend who is aware that he needs some kind of "initiation" into manhood (he doesn't express it quite that way, but he knows he's "looking for something that'll show [him] how to be the person [he] wants to be." He considers sex to be unrelated to that process, so he's getting cleared to sign up for the Marines instead.He's a pretty fantastic guy, actually. Very kind, very generous, very monogamy-oriented, but doesn't take crap from anyone and has excellent strength of character. He's got a good balance of traits and I don't say it lightly when I say that I respect him. But I'm mentioning this because I think it's interesting what happens when someone is self-aware enough to go, "Ok, something's missing...I'm going to pull myself out of bed in the middle of the night and go do something about it."

I got a question for you, though: Do you see the laws in the West as more of the problem rather than the women, then?

@ Miss Malice,

I agree with you that it is certainly interesting!I am sure your friend will indeed be better for it.Many psychologists believe that women do not have that one-in-a-lifetime initiation thing psychologically speaking because they get smaller 'monthly' ones...I dunno...

I disagree about your initiation thesis, however. See, your take would make sense if these were young, inexperienced men in search of manhood initiation and still invested in 'the village'.

However, by and large this is not the case in the MGTOW crowd. These are men that have literally arrived at the end of their road. These are men who endured years and years, oftentimes even decades of abuse, emotional suffering and trauma.

And finally something died inside them, some spirit, some spark, some trust, some faith...in the village. Imo, the majority of MGTOW are deeply wounded men.

Can these men be healed? Some can, maybe. But most/all? I doubt it. And personally, I have even yet to see some women speaking out in public about misandry and all the things that are happening right now.

At the moment all I see/read are women "standing up for men in their head" (Chels). By blogging or commenting on HUS. And even on HUS I have become increasingly sceptical.

Notice the reaction of you women to Mike's story (virtually none), my reaction to your reaction and Mrs Walsh's subsequent deletion of my comment.

This just reinforces my feeling that even at HUS as a man I am second class, not wholly welcome and tolerated only insofar as I chime in with the herd.

And I don't like that. So I admit that Mrs Walsh is far better and less manhating than your average garden variety feminist. But is she on my side? I doubt it.

Question: how do you see US society changing at present? How is the village changing? How do you measure that?

Unless you are going to tell me that ALL the girls in your class were getting friendly with your classmate who kept failing.

Only about 20 of them were doing it with the thug. The other 2 were lesbians, LOL!

Problem with the fantasy of finding a good woman in some god-forsaken Country is that most of the time the women who date/marry/have children with foreign women only do it because they'd starve otherwise.

Guys like that old freak I mentioned aren't MGtow. They're predators, bunch of losers who are delighted to have a 20 year old attractive woman offer to be their private porn star; for the money and security these guys can provide with their resources.

Sadly, most of them forget about what MGTOW entails and try to usher all of the men who've awaken to this garbage of a Civilization to move to any non-developed Country.

The few times I've been to Brazil or to poor Asian Countries, I saw all of these fat/bad and disgusting men parading around with hot, young women.

I know of mixed Asians whose mothers moved to the States or to Europe and married up, of course, because they had the choice. A woman in the developed world can pretty much have the pick of the litter, regardless of how much less her studies are compared to the man or how little money she has.

My friend's sister is smoking hot and as such can be as picky as her mother. She won't date Asians, only white men and she's only interested in soldiers. At least in the latter she has her head set on right.

But my friend, who despite being 6'6'' cannot get a date to save his life. He's genetically prone to build muscle quite fast but he can't disguise his Asian facial features.

Yet.. In Asia, he has movie stars chasing him and women treat him like western women treat Brad Pitt.

Point is, no matter where a man goes, unless he's above average, some local Brad Pitt is going to be picking it all up and all an average man will have to deal with is the bill to pay.

Not worth it, to move to another continent or Country for a possibility.

"So, what do you need from the rest of us?Vocal support? Written support in the form of petitions? How can we help? Tell us and we will be only too happy to help."

All of the above. Anything you can do. Keep up with the recurring issues from the Spearhead, mgtow forums, and A Voice For Men. Know your misandry: how it manifests in India, Australia, Canada, the US, the UK, etc. Read, reread, and reread again the Misandry Bubble. Christina Hoff Summers speaks a good piece about the social contract between the genders, (chivalry), breaking down.

Most importantly, discuss these things with others.

"Do you see the laws in the West as more of the problem rather than the women, then?"

This question is directed at Hoser, but I have a response: Yes, but it's not just laws. It also involves media, socialization, and operant conditioning.

Still, with everything MGTOW have seen and experienced, we're not coming back. Your efforts to know and address men's issues are appreciated, but the scope of everything that needs to change in order to repair the damage between the sexes seems to span generations.

You say that you are the monogamous type, but men who have been through the ringer are not going to give you a chance to prove it. The cost/risk/benefit analysis of dating and relationshits makes getting drunk with our friends, playing call of duty, and watching pornography better uses of our time.

As others have noted, we're not returning to the village. The village is hostile to men, fatherhood, masculinity, male genitalia, male role models, etc. The village doesn't deserve any heros; it deserves to implode and dissolve into historical oblivion. It rewards bad and punishes good.

"Because for me, (and I have taken off my 'masculine eye goggles' right now - I am now in full female mode), the saddest message I am getting from your collective voices is that no-one will miss you. No-one cares to see the back of you. Someone even used the word 'hostile'.

Well, now you know, there is at least one woman in the village who will miss you :-) but who won't stop you doing whatever it is that you need to do for yourself.Because you are free to make your own choice.

....

So, what do you need from the rest of us?Vocal support? Written support in the form of petitions? How can we help?Tell us and we will be only too happy to help."

The thing is that once you've completely gone your own way you realize that the village you've left is nothing compared to the beautiful, wide open world you've gained. There's no reason to look back. There's a world of possibilities ahead. Being a hero is a burden. We don't want your help or support.

Don't worry though. I'm sure that only a small percentage of men will ever go their own way, leaving few women without men.

For the longest time I thought something was wrong with me. Here I am making $75,000 a year, stable lucrative job, educated, musically talented, combat served, never having experienced the scars of divorce, no kids and baby mama drama....in essence, bringing a lot to the table. Why is it I'm single? It doesn't make any sense.

Now I know why. Women spend their younger years riding the loser c0ck carousel, then wake up one day and realize that isn't what they want. They want an average guy to finance their life once their tits start sagging and they get wrinkles all over their face and can't get the loser douchebag bad boys anymore. Well.....i'm not gonna finance that.

It isn't initiation that men need spacetraveler....that was tradition from a long time ago. Today men need AWAKENING!!!!! They need to see women for what they really are.....destruction. They need to realize that women bring no tangible benefit for a man other than sexual satisfaction. With the advent of radical feminism, women serve no other purpose today than to be a cum dumpster. The only bargaining chip/controlling object women have today is sex. If a man, groups of men, scores of men, are able to overcome their dependency on sex, women lose because they have nothing else to offer men other than sex.

For a man who has mastered and overcome the sexual stronghold, he finds that he doesn't need a woman. I still find myself from time to time grappling with the loneliness factor, but those times are fewer and farther inbetween. Once i no longer grapple with that, it will be too late for any woman anywhere.

Well, I can't say I am not getting an education here, lads :-)You get what you wish for, as they say. I wanted to know more, I am getting it, so thanks.

So, if I have got this right, there are a few points that stand out:

1. MGTOW are older men who are out of the 'dating parade' anyway?A lot of you seem to be saying this, but I see a lot of 30's to 40's men who seem to be following you out of the village but do not necessarily have the same bad experiences of the older men.So are these 'MGTOW but without a PERSONAL axe to grind' types still recoverable? Or are they just way too savvy to expect anything different in his life compared to Dad? Surely Dad got battered because Dad had no Game. But YOU, you do! So, you have better options than Dad, no?(Anonymous @ 3.14, this question is specifically for you: no-one expects you to get with an old slut. But what about a younger woman who has not been around...is there a total absence of these as well? Sure, I think if she is way too young, she may be too immature for you, but you, you have options, no? With your credentials, what is stopping you? You don't need a woman...I get that. But you don't WANT one? Even a good one?)

2. Some of you say your departure from the Village is permanent. Fine, I respect that.

But I also hear some who just say things are terrible in the village but leave it there...so, if the village got better, at least a small minority might come back?(Umslopogaas - when you talk about healing, what can be done to 'heal' that small minority from their past wounds? Are you talking about counselling/psychotherapy or just a personal journey type of thing?)

@ Spoon:That's pretty grim, even though I already know a man can really go and not look back. Because he can.

"Don't worry though. I'm sure that only a small percentage of men will ever go their own way, leaving few women without men."

Well...from what I am hearing...tough to believe...but still...I hope you are right.

@ Umslopogaas:"Question: how do you see US society changing at present? How is the village changing? How do you measure that?"

Depends where you look.

I must say, in this case, the internet is our friend. I found a lot of helpful information on (mainly) married women's blogs about the right way...yes, I know, these women are not your target. But at least, they are not going to divorce-rape your brother.

There are courses for teaching women about the PRINCIPLES of being better women, they are not simply dating courses...they are kind of like inner Game classes for women.It's small progress, I know.But look, the Manosphere is already going mainstream. Mainstream media is a big joke, yes, but many people are turning their backs on it. I know several people who don't even own a TV anymore...that's one less source of misandry...I should add 'The Church', but I won't go there...I agree, that the Church's efforts have been underwhelming. Where there are successes, it tends to be because the people themselves are making a concerted effort, by themselves...but perhaps this reflects SOME influence perhaps?

In some earlier posts, I made references to the many young women who are walking out on feminism. If even the mainstream media has picked up on this, it is a real phenomenon...this trend can only rise...remember women are herd creatures?One good herd begets another, and so on...

@ Anonymous @ 1.03PM:"But my friend, who despite being 6'6'' cannot get a date to save his life."

At 6 ft 6, your friend is above average in America too. What's with the anti-Asian-male sentiment among American women?If there was a reason not to date an Asian male, normal hypergamy would dictate that it would probably be because he is short...not an issue here, clearly, so there is a problem...

@ Anonymous at 1.42PM:

I already do all of the above because I am somewhat close to this specific issue. Moreover, the women I associate with are already converted.Doing what you want in full would mean going back to the old herd to engage them...hmm...talk about giving a girl a mission impossible :-)

secondly, if you have to post more than 100 words when a simple "agree to disagree" is applicable, that's pretty bitch-made. i'm 37, never married, no kids, career military, VERY good job that pays well on the civilian side, lived all over the world and have been fortunate enough to been loved by women. i've broken hearts and i've most certainly had mine broken. i'm NECK deep in the SMP as a single guy. I GET IT. i do. however....

i'd NEVER let a blog post get me soooo flustered that i'd write MULTIPLE posts on "how i feel." if you want to share your perspective.....FINE. ST WANTS to hear it. but Dear God some of you are crying like boys with skinned knees. every man has to follow his own path, if you're "going your own way", best of luck. i really mean that, and i understand your rationale for your decision.

but i'm sorry, when you post VERY VERBOSE comments as to why you're a good catch and how you're this lone wolf, it REEKS of insecurity. sorry. i mean if you ACTIVELY avoid women. cool.

more for me. and they DO NOT, get over on me. i'm going my own way too. and i have women along for the ride.

ST is NOT an enemy. she loves, appreciates and wants her own man. i'm really pulling for her that she finds one. she deserves it. she's one of the good ones.

"A lot of you seem to be saying this, but I see a lot of 30's to 40's men who seem to be following you out of the village but do not necessarily have the same bad experiences of the older men.""So are these 'MGTOW but without a PERSONAL axe to grind' types still recoverable? Or are they just way too savvy to expect anything different in his life compared to Dad? Surely Dad got battered because Dad had no Game. But YOU, you do! So, you have better options than Dad, no?"

Here, I'll weigh in. You'd know me as Chris_in_CA on HUS.

I'm in my early 30s. I've never been married. Have no children. My parents are still married.

I've had an incredibly difficult time dating in my life. I went without any form of dating for 6 years straight. I was convinced for years that there was something very wrong with me.

In one sense, there was - I went by the "nice guy" nonsense I was taught as a child. It took growing older and my sense of observation to shake me out of it.

I am MGTOW. Damn the 'options' - I'm not playing women's games anymore.

My reasons are partly due to the legal environment. And partly due to observation of female behavior.

Do I want a good woman? Sure. Would love to have a happy relationship. I will not seek one though.

You speak of 'recovery' as if I'm damaged. Or worse, ill.

To extrapolate on your village analogy...I see the minefield I'd have to cross to reach the village. No way I'm walking into that.

Does this sound depressing? It should. Because it's the truth. And here's something more...

"1. MGTOW are older men who are out of the 'dating parade' anyway?A lot of you seem to be saying this, but I see a lot of 30's to 40's men who seem to be following you out of the village but do not necessarily have the same bad experiences of the older men."

No. It's becoming popular with the younger 20-somethings as well as the 30+ crowd. I see about an equal distribution, but the new MGTOW seem to be getting younger and younger.

"So are these 'MGTOW but without a PERSONAL axe to grind' types still recoverable? Or are they just way too savvy to expect anything different in his life compared to Dad? Surely Dad got battered because Dad had no Game. But YOU, you do! So, you have better options than Dad, no?"

The word 'recoverable' is quite condescending and gynocentric. MGTOW have already 'recovered'. We're not going to go back to the plantation; we're not going to save any woman from loneliness.

Your whole thing about game and our dads is also quite a large miss. Learning about game and what women respond to is part of the reason I go my own way.

I have tons of natural game. I get good signals from women everywhere I go. I don't want game. Games aren't real. Being genuine and honest is too boring and predictable, so women can have their PUAs and scumbags... until they hit their 30's, hehehe... Just don't expect me to heroically save these used up women when they start wanting money and babies. They're fooked as far as I'm concerned. No sale.

"You don't need a woman...I get that. But you don't WANT one? Even a good one?)"

A guy like that doesn't need to buy any cows when all he needs is to memorize the '16 commandments of poon' and have a different 18-25 year old every week. Plus, plenty of men have found 'good women' only to find that the 'good' part wears off in four years if they're lucky. Nope, not worth it.

"But I also hear some who just say things are terrible in the village but leave it there...so, if the village got better, at least a small minority might come back?"

Maybe. Depends on how much better. You're thinking selfishly again, though. Why not make the village better for it's own sake, for the generations of boys AND girls that have yet to be born?

"I already do all of the above because I am somewhat close to this specific issue. Moreover, the women I associate with are already converted.Doing what you want in full would mean going back to the old herd to engage them...hmm...talk about giving a girl a mission impossible :-)"

Thank you. Not asking for you to waste your time on the impossible, but as a woman you can get away with saying things that men cannot. Exploit your female privilege on an opportunistic basis. If men hear you standing up for them, you might be able to fool one into thinking you actually care about men outside of what they provide for you.

I love it when what I want to say is said in a better way by someone else.

Thanks for the support! I owe you one :-)

@ Chris-in-CA,

First of all, I used the word 'recoverable' in the sense of 'getting back', not in the sense of damage/illness. I don't feel the need to stoop to abuse/denigration. We are all just having a discussion here...

"Do I want a good woman? Sure. Would love to have a happy relationship. I will not seek one though."

See, I have a small problem with this. GYOW is natural enough. I get it. But is it natural if PERMANENT when you are still so young? I mean, a 60 year old GHOW is one thing, but a 30 year old? Is it really that easy to let social conditioning drive down your natural instincts THAT much?

Because if that is the case, I know a ton of women who would say, "Well, they expect us to remain all feminine and natural for them, even though feminism morphed us into some weird masculine-feminine combo because we had to adopt masculine tendencies to survive in the workforce...and yet they themselves are not quite recognisable as 'men' anymore?"What would you say to that, Chris?Fair comment? Or do you believe there should be one rule for men and another for women?

Do you know how hard it is for some women to go out and work, AND look after the baby AND kill their own snakes, all the while trying to look their best for their husbands/bfs, to keep them?

Do you believe women have it easy?

No one reaches adulthood without some pain. We've all been there.

Some people try to pick themselves up and walk again after they've been kicked in the teeth.

Good on you, it seems you've found your way.But I sure do hope it's not borne purely out of bitterness and anger. But somehow, it seems like it from what I read.

The same thing happened to a few women around 50 years ago. They thought 'damn those men, we'll make 'em pay for (insert grievance of choice). Now we are all paying for their bitterness.

"Is it really that easy to let social conditioning drive down your natural instincts THAT much?"

Yes, and this goes back to operant conditioning. I had a large investment in having a wife and kids before I saw the writing on the wall. Now I do not. If airplanes had a 50% chance of crashing, no one would fly either. Duh.

"Because if that is the case, I know a ton of women who would say, "Well, they expect us to remain all feminine and natural for them, even though feminism morphed us into some weird masculine-feminine combo because we had to adopt masculine tendencies to survive in the workforce...and yet they themselves are not quite recognisable as 'men' anymore?""

Wow, you sound like a WGHOW, lol. I think you're forgetting that MGTOW don't want women to act in any way, really. Women are mostly irrelevant to MGTOW. We have natural urges for sex, affection, companionship, but those are in conflict with our other urges, and so we cut our losses and stand by our priorities.

"Do you know how hard it is for some women to go out and work, AND look after the baby AND kill their own snakes, all the while trying to look their best for their husbands/bfs, to keep them?"

The feminist dystopia is not fair to women or men. It's a bad deal for everyone. Still, MGTOW are entirely numb and immune to female victimization scripts. We didn't ask for things to be this way; we just adapt to how they are.

"Do you believe women have it easy?"

No one has it easy. Not rich people, no one. Women do have many advantages these days that men don't have, however. This makes things easier for women in some respects, but I don't think anyone with more than two fingers of forehead would say that that 51% of the world's human population 'has it easy' by virtue of their plumbing.

"The same thing happened to a few women around 50 years ago. They thought 'damn those men, we'll make 'em pay for (insert grievance of choice). Now we are all paying for their bitterness."

True, but the MGTOW I've read just want to mind their own business. The feminists do not.

"See, I have a small problem with this. GYOW is natural enough. I get it. But is it natural if PERMANENT when you are still so young? I mean, a 60 year old GHOW is one thing, but a 30 year old? Is it really that easy to let social conditioning drive down your natural instincts THAT much?"

I don't actually care that you have a problem with my life choices. I'll respond because you've asked a fair question, and I respect that.

Social conditioning is only one part of the equation. As I said before, legal caution is a big factor. That's enough to exercise a lot of self-control - "curbing my natural instincts" as you so put it.

Easy though? No, it has not been easy. Now and then I think about having a relationship. I choose not to act on it though, for my sake.

I've been studying Game as a socio-sexual experiment, but that's in its nascent stages. As I'm not a drinker and don't like clubs, I'm not sure how effective it will be for me...but if nothing else, it's great for some introspection.

"Because if that is the case, I know a ton of women who would say, "Well, they expect us to remain all feminine and natural for them, even though feminism morphed us into some weird masculine-feminine combo because we had to adopt masculine tendencies to survive in the workforce...and yet they themselves are not quite recognisable as 'men' anymore?"What would you say to that, Chris? Fair comment? Or do you believe there should be one rule for men and another for women?"

I'd say you're trying to bait me.

"Good on you, it seems you've found your way.But I sure do hope it's not borne purely out of bitterness and anger. But somehow, it seems like it from what I read.The same thing happened to a few women around 50 years ago. They thought 'damn those men, we'll make 'em pay for (insert grievance of choice). Now we are all paying for their bitterness."

You're eager to apply the 'bitter' label to me. As we're on the Web, there's no actual way I can prove I'm not.

So I'll simply say that life has been very enjoyable these past few years, and I'm looking forward to more of the same. Take care.

"Your whole thing about game and our dads is also quite a large miss. Learning about game and what women respond to is part of the reason I go my own way. "

We agree! I made this point about MGTOW being like 'inner Game'.

"Not asking for you to waste your time on the impossible, but as a woman you can get away with saying things that men cannot. Exploit your female privilege on an opportunistic basis."

Well, I can try...

"If men hear you standing up for them, you might be able to fool one into thinking you actually care about men outside of what they provide for you. "

I have to say I found this last statement odd.

The assumption is, that a woman can never be genuine...she will always try to "fool" a man.

I won't take this personally.

Because I think I can understand your motivation for saying it.

Afterall, you guys are providing the evidence of women who HAVE fooled you. I can't fight the evidence, so I won't try.

When I describe some here as sounding 'bitter' or 'angry', I really do think I have evidence of that from their words. Phrases such as "F*** the village..."women are nothing but c**dumpsters""and they will all turn into catladies hahaha"

all smack a little bit of repressed anger and bitterness.

It is simpy an obervation though. Sorry if that offends.I am just keen for people to avoid 'mexican wave' type swirls of 'tit for tat'.

Because that sort of thing gets no-one anywhere in the end...

But if you are happy as things are, perfect. I shall be happy for you too.

By the way, I also explained my use of the word 'recoverable' to an earlier commenter.

My bad...This explains things even better, I hope:

I live in a french-speaking country. I speak french all day, and then when I try to communicate to you guys, I still have my french brain switched on...Sometimes I do a translation in my head which does not quite translate well into English. It is a common affliction of the bilingual.

The word I was thinking of was 'récuperer'...'Recuperate' in English sounds too much like illness, I thought 'recovery' would be better...and the rest is history :-)

"I have to say I found this last statement odd. The assumption is, that a woman can never be genuine...she will always try to "fool" a man. I won't take this personally. Because I think I can understand your motivation for saying it. Afterall, you guys are providing the evidence of women who HAVE fooled you. I can't fight the evidence, so I won't try."

I myself will probably never believe otherwise. Seen and heard too much.

"When I describe some here as sounding 'bitter' or 'angry', I really do think I have evidence of that from their words."

Attacking the bitterness doesn't help anything. When people quit smoking, they start to hate cigarettes too. It's part of the process, but it ends with acceptance and indifference.

ok spacetraveler, this is from anonymous@3:14. it doesn't look like you are truly trying to garner understanding from men who go their own way. it sounds like you're just a feminist who is trying to reason these men out of their way of thinking. We have this way of thinking because of the evil that women do.....have done....continue to do.....and most certainly will do in the future.

Thanks to radical feminism women the world over have been saying for years that they don't need a man. Well, now it's time for them to get that. They don't get to have their cake and eat it too. Either you want us or you don't. As for me, I don't give a rat's ass about any of ya. You've made your bed, now it's time for you to sleep in it.

"Attacking the bitterness doesn't help anything. When people quit smoking, they start to hate cigarettes too. It's part of the process, but it ends with acceptance and indifference."

Quote of the day!

If this were Facebook, I would 'like' this.

I shall certainly remember this in my next dealings with some of the men who comment.

Special thanks for your pearls of wisdom.

@ Anonymous @ 7.38PM:

Thanks for replying to my question. And commenting again.

I accept I appear to be trying to sway people's minds. I do accept it APPEARS that way. But it is not what I am trying to do, of course. I am engaging you guys in conversation. I want to understand more...So I am curious...so shoot me, LOL.

Seriously, though, if it seems that I am asking many questions, it is because I want to know the answers. I may not like them...but you don't have to care. (But I would prefer it if you did).

Oh, and another thing.Please refrain from calling me a feminist. Thank you.

you want to understand more. ok. here's all the understanding you need. When women stop all the evil shit they're doing, and genuinely start to appreciate men and not waste their time on douchebag losers, then maybe.....just maybe......some men might come back to the village. Now.....do you really and truly think women are going to do that??? If you do I got some beachfront property in Oklahoma for ya! Here is wisdom: Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast. for it is the number of a man, and his number is six hundred, threescore and six. We have seen the "666" mark of the beast on the heads of women....and we are not going to choose that life. And yes I used biblical passage to make an analogy, but it certainly is evil that women are doing.......infidelity, financial bankruptcy, paternity fraud, child alienation, imprisonment.....all of it....evil.

"I shall certainly remember this in my next dealings with some of the men who comment."

The bitterness is a natural part of the process, and you are right not to take it personally. On behalf of all MGTOW, (Oh shit, I'm in trouble, klol...), I just want to thank you for what you've done so far.

The last time I saw this post, it had only three comments and I wanted to let my own thoughts percolate a bit before sharing them here. Now I wonder whether it's safe to wade in even as far as I already have! :P

JT, I have another friend who has written about the necessity of rites of passage, and in particular ritual humiliation, in building character. Interestingly enough, his real-life example was of a woman . . . He wrote of a friend of his who was funny looking as a girl (because of glasses, braces and a pudgy frame) and got teased mercilessly for it. Later, in her teens, she bloomed overnight, and suddenly, everyone who had been mean to her wanted to be her friend or to date her. She rejected them all. Her own experience in the "wilderness" had taught her how to filter for character and had refined her own.

That story made a big impression on me because I had a very similar "rite of passage." I was born with a craniofacial deformity that could not be corrected until I was in my teens, and even then, I had to live with the scars of major surgery. It wasn't until I was in my twenties that I started getting any attention from the opposite sex that wasn't in the form of taunts or humiliation . . . And what I did with it was offer it up to God and think about entering religious life! Hahahaha! (And now you can connect this to your older post about nuns being the best role models for future wives and mothers.)

So I almost Went My Own Way, in that celibate sense, and now that I'm back in the village, I just hope that what I have to offer is still of value to the men I shall still get to meet. (For yes, it goes both ways: I have something to offer, too.)

Thank you so much for stopping by. If ever a girl needed a member of the herd, it is now, LOL...

Your story about that woman actually answers a question I had addressed to Miss Mailce.

See, I always believed that this whole 'in the wilderness' thing was uniquely male. But clearly, the woman in your story had a proper full on WGHOW experience.Your own experience also enlightens.

Perhaps some of the men who were ignored and rejected in their twenties will relate to this.

I think in this regard, you might be forgiven for feeling particularly aggrieved. Because your teens and your early twenties were your 'prime time' so to speak.

At least the men have the benefit of time on their side...

"...and now that I'm back in the village, I just hope that what I have to offer is still of value to the men I shall still get to meet. (For yes, it goes both ways: I have something to offer, too.)"

Yesterday, Bellita, I would have said to you, "Maybe whatever you do, it will not work.Because the ship sailed before you could get to the port."

Because the impression I got from a lot of these men who are commenting is this: (and you would recognise this phrase, I am sure) 'Veni, vidi, abii' (I came, I saw, I left) instead of the expected 'Veni, vidi, vici' (I came, I saw, I conquered).

But somehow, today seems a bit brighter. The placebo effect of a good night's sleep, perhaps?

They do say that birds of a feather flock together.I do not pretend to have the same degree of pain you must have gone through in your teens...the extent of my troubles being that I was just a tad too 'dorky' because I was not a natural herd member...

But it is enough to make me a prime candidate to at least UNDERSTAND what's going on on the other side of the fence. With understanding comes empathy, then...the ball starts rolling.

Thank you for this. As ever, you shine a light where it is darkest.

And yes, with your obvious wisdom and understanding, from your experiences having shaped your character, I think you WOULD make a great mother. People don't get to choose their parents...but I bet there is a bonny baby up in heaven petitioning God right now, insisting: "I want her, I want her!"

You've just got to hope that the kid has a similar taste in its choice of the OTHER parent LOL...

@ Anonymous @ 8.33PM:"evil".I have heard this word in the context of a divorce before. More than once.

I once read a document called 'The Principles of social competence'. It is free on this site:

http://manhood101.com/ebook.html

In this document, it is stated that a very common word men use against women who have 'battered' them is 'evil'.

For all my understanding, I have to admit: I clearly haven't been where you have been.

But I am trying to walk a bit in your shoes. They are a bit big for me though, so my walk will be slow. I'll trip up once in a while, but I shall get back up and keep walking.

And news of freedom is spreading to adjacent plantations ... it will continue to spread ... only the first vanguard of slaves has woken ...

To salve your wounds, I suggest investing in pharmaceutical and cat food companies, as there will be legions of barren and crazy cat women needing some sort of salvation from the upcoming social upheaval that is MGTOW.

Anyway, just want to chime in and comment on the fact that a lot of MGTOW guys commenting on this post sound very bitter and whiny... I am MGHOW but I am not as easily offended when someone assumes that maybe I would like to came back in the village if the situation improves... I mean, we get it, the women are not like they were before feminism took place (or maybe they were but they just couldn't express it), but there is no need to be so much butthurt, it makes us all look bad. Some of us would like to come back but we dont feel welcome.

ST - Interesting post, I stopped by after reading a comment thread on a MGTOW site.

I'm 31, as of today, and went MGTOW long before I even knew there was a community online about it.

The basic thing is that I realized there was an unbalanced equation in today's society that resulted in it being highly tilted against me (men). I saw it in societal statistics, in my own family, in friends, in older men, and in younger men. I was expected to contribute quite highly, with no quantifiable benefit, and tons of risk. There is no social compact anymore, it is a social sentence.

I didn't really understand women until I found MRA, Game, and MGTOW sites online. Before that, it was just more of a general sense that something wasn't right, and that it was skewed against me. Like a startled deer. I initially had a healthy skepticism of MGTOW as just a bunch of bitter and angry men, and largely focused instead on game. What I learned of game explained many interactions that previously made no sense to me - it removed the mystery. A period of time passed where I remembered all past interactions and situations I'd experienced, reviewed on-going ones, and gradually started getting an understanding for what was going on. In the end, the explanations were obvious, and I was surprised to find that underneath the apparent bitterness, political incorrectness, and other things I saw on the MGTOW/MRA side....was a bunch of truth. It even helped explain some political viewpoints I'd initially written off. Although I don't agree with many proposed solutions, I now understand their disgust with the basic problems.

In the end I guess the best summary for MGTOW is not that we're older, bitter men leading younger people around, it's that we've realized the social pact that used to exist has been blown up, that natural human greed and biological impulses have combined into a cesspool. We are men who realize that something was horribly wrong, and that the best way to live wholesome, enjoyable lives for ourselves is to avoid the guillotine hanging over the head of most male/female interactions in this country.

On a side note, as much as I wished that everything in life was equal and fair...mother nature is not. When we buck mother nature, we tend to get slapped down - biological urges exist for a reason. Women are increasingly unhappy in today's society - I guess it turns out that empowerment and moving into men's roles in society wasn't as glamorous as it was billed. While it may likewise involve double standards, female sexual promiscuity comes with immense biological and social consequences that male promiscuity does not - most notable in the form of pair bonding. What I'm trying to say, is that as a longtime advocate of basic liberal concepts of equality and fairness, is that individual happiness and societal functionality is constrained by basic biological realities...and we've bucked a bunch of them in the last 40 years. There are consequences. It may be that we are evolving as a species, and we're merely the resistance to it, and we'll all adjust and be happier to the new phase. But in the meantime, there is going to be alot of social strife, and MGTOW is a natural result. If anything, it's manifesting at even earlier ages than it used to - we see it in MGTOW forums, Japan is another prime example.

I'm in my 20's and I opted out in my mid-teens after witnessing how popular the guy with the criminal record was amongst even the so-called good girls.

Knowing perfectly well that most of the men who married women who were apparently decent were being driven to an early grave by working jobs they hated to support/be an equal partner to a woman(LMAO!); I decided that it wasn't for me, to bother with women.

Game is invalid. I see men try to use game on women everywhere. It fails. Unless the guy has something that women want; height, looks, muscles, money.

Even the most famous of the PUA's, Roissy, couldn't game average-looking women when he visited South America, LOL!

Game is just an appealing title for ''getting an American woman drunk.''

I don't care about what these silly and retarded PUA's say or how much social proof they claim to have, if a man has to change himself into a predator just to get a little bit of female attention, then I'd rather use my hand and go on with my day.

Of course, sex is better, but so is a lifetime of no stds, child-support, false rape reports; now will I ever be cheated on.

Why would I want to learn game? Lets say that I'm taught game by Casanova himself, he came from the dead just to teach me.

Did you know that Casanova was completely addicted to female validation Sex is already one of the most addictive drugs. I see my friends who happen to be good-looking but for some odd reason can't acquire a steady income of sex. They become physically ill if they are without sex for a while.

No, thanks. I'm also not interested in porn. It enslaves men and only profits women. Jenna Jameson makes more than 10 million per year, geez, sure makes a decent job lack appealing, LOL.

Basically. I'm not interested in game, in becoming good-looking, or rich. Attracting women is like attracting bees. You end up stinged to death and for what?

For the enjoyment of women. I've stepped away from the village and I have an entire world to travel to.

Not entirely sure what you meant by that. In order to hear about MGTOW you have to seek out information on it. Unless of course by "we" you mean women that are affected by the phenomenon. Feel free to correct me on this.

You mention that women fear abandonment. It follows that MGTOW is a problem for women. This blog post and the resulting discussion are an analysis of the problem. I assume the next step is to solve the problem.

I would like for you to elaborate on your answer. Despite that it may be all you hear about these days I don't think that is the motivation to "figure out" MGTOW.

By that, I mean that it (MGTOW) IS what is happening everywhere I look. It's not hard to see. I just did not know what it was called. So I found out its name when I went looking for anwers.

By "we", I mean everyone, but primarily women (and the people in their 'camps' - their mothers, fathers, brothers, friends, uncles, great-aunts, colleagues).

So it is a widespread 'problem', yes.

Yes, MGTOW is a problem for women, whether they have been deemed to have cause it or not.

Abandonment IS a woman's greatest fear, whether each individual woman admits it or not.

About solutions, I do not purport to have any. I set out to learn, engage with the players of the game (and therefore I felt the need to define the categories of the players in the following post) and take it from there.We will have to work out the solution together, all of us. At least those who want to.I can only however engage with those who DO want to engage with me. In that sense, even though I have achieved at least some dialogue with some MGTOW (and that's a good thing, thanks guys!) some have categorically stated they're gone for good and 'ain't coming back', ever).So these men will necessarily and by default, have to be excluded from the solution, because the goal is to improve things between men ansd women, which has to mean that some come back to 'the village'.

Badly hurt???? Why do you assume that just because women can't seem to separate their own feelings and experiences from their thoughts and reasons for doing something, that men can't? Men are capable of thinking beyond themselves and their own experience on every issue under the sun. MGTOW can easily make a decision do so by reasoning and analysis alone, they don't do it because they've been "badly hurt". Some do, granted, but most don't seem to.

Good Lord, woman, you really don't know what you're writing about. You don't write about "Nature", as you say, but the return to the jungle - a race to the bottom of the world. MGTOW are simply cutting you and your ilk loose.

"MGTOW can easily make a decision do so by reasoning and analysis alone, they don't do it because they've been "badly hurt". *Some do, granted*, but most don't seem to."

So we agree...some do.

Some men have in fact indicated that they have been hard done by. I did not out the words into their mouths. It's all there in the comments. If 'hurt' is too much of a 'female' word for you, then I apologise.

In which case I can express it like this:

"I know some of you have been badly screwed"(But I don't like the this way of expressing it, so ther you go: tit for tat. We both have had to use ways of expression we don't like)

I am a man, 58 years old, single, never married. I worked for the US Government for 36 years and I am now retired, with my own house (paid off) and a decent pension. I have been ignored, if not scorned, by single women of my age - all of my life. I have been Going My Own Way, at least in terms of Society's expectations, since 1 was 14.

Spacetraveler, you seem open-minded and sincere enough. Your original post doesn't have too much shaming language for MGTOW, and you acknowledge how fear-of-abandonment affects women. But I suspect you are willfully ignoring some crucial factors in today's cultural, social and especially legal environment.

The "dance floor" for the mating dance has become a minefield for men, or a "killing field" with boobytraps, tanglefoot barbed-wire, punji-stake pits, and a steep glacis raked with machine-gun fire. Feminists started this conversion, but vote-eager politicians and soft-hearted, soft-headed bureaucrats (white knights) empowered it and fixed these inequities into law.

Yes, law. The deck is stacked against the man in today's world; against the boy in school (with his head filled with feminist propaganda, and Ritalin); against the college man, with more femprop but no drugs to "calm him down" (save for street drugs); against the job-applicant, with quotas and "requisite education" that work against him; in the workplace, where he is the target of sexual harassment - but every move he makes will be screened by the prejudiced eyes of his female colleagues, in search of evidence to make a case against him ...

And, most especially, in marriage and in the social dance that leads to it. He is expected to court her, to feed her ego and her whims, to pony up for a Bridezilla wedding, and to crawl the line she toes for him. And if he doesn't measure up? VAWA, domestic-violence allegations, the Duluth model, and the vicious lies that her lawyer and her friends egg her on to use, can guarantee him a very, very, very bad life to follow.

I'm very familiar with women's fear of abandonment. I saw it in my (single) mother's eyes, heard it in her voice, when I grew to manhood and could have struck out on my own. I stayed with her instead, but picked up the load of "breadwinner" and even bought a house for the two of us ... she died in that house, died of cancer, with her hand in mine, ten years ago. I was 48 that day, with friends that age who were grandparents. So I believe I know what it is to "man up."

For me, now, as for my MGTOW brothers, your fear of abandonment does not equal our fear of enslavement, or our rage at the "third-class" treatment we are getting, or our increasingly-bitter awareness of the contempt of your sisters. We go not forth to "initiation," but to liberation. You may have to leave the village and come out to us. I doubt that you will.

Wow, thanks for your comment, Anonymous.If anyone knows what they are talking about, it's certainly you. I am grateful that you shared your obvious superior wisdom on this matter. I know that everyone who reads it will find it educational.

As I do.Which brings me to something:You say I willfully ignore certain factors. My response to this is, I have a lot to say as you know, but I don't yet know everything I should. So if I haven't said it, assume I don't yet know about it until proven otherwise :-)

I am particularly moved by the story of your mother's death. On your birthday too. It must have been hard for you.

Education, education, education, as they say. That's what we need. If I had found much of what I know now in mainstream media ages ago, I would be far better off. But that never happened. So, here we are.

Can I ask you -How does a woman leave the village to go after a man?(Incidentally, to my recollection, this is the first time someone has suggested this strategy!!! I for one was always going to wait in the village for anyone who came back, metaphorically speaking :-) but thanks for pointing out that we could leave the village and go find you instead!)

But what does it mean?

A lot of men here say they don't want reformed 'not so nice' girls. So even if every woman turned into an angel tonight, it seems it might not do any good?

See, I am still confused. I am sure the women who want to do their part are too. The message we are getting is, "great that some of you are trying, but it's too late anyway, so don't bother."

But your comment leaves the door slightly ajar.

So tell me, you have presented beautifully the things that made you leave the village.What does a woman need to do to walk through that little gap in the doorway to come find you?

Would something like obligatory men's studies in schools help? Then at least it's a level playing field.

I must say, I never had any particular 'women's studies' growing up (unless things have changed you don't get that in convent school). So I guess that helps me to be receptive to 'men's studies' which is what I am getting now. So, maybe teach gender studies to the opposite gender? What do you think?

what impressed me more than the article, was you ST! i saw your response(s), and it's quite nice to see your open-arms approach. it refreshing to see such an understanding woman. although id warn you, you could burn yourself out.

anyway.

i noticed that the most basic ideas of MGTOW is already put forth, so i guess i only have my story to share then!

I am 25. no scratch that, its 2012, so im a 26 year old MGTOW. i have been so for the past year and a half. although i still socialize with women, i no longer partake in sexual intercourse with any of them.

i admit, for the few months of accepting MGTOW, i was a little bitter... but then i got over it, and am now quite indifferent to things. im no good at absorbing too much negative energy anyways. ever since, my life is now relatively happy and i have no complaints. inside, i am actually overjoyed! how overjoyed, you ask?

i feel like the slave who ran away from the cotton fields, and is now freely blowing his trumpet to blues tunes on the street, being able go anywhere without persecution, and basically doing whatever the fuck he wants, pardon my french! i mean, life still sucks, but im blissfully happy! this is personally a weird phenomenon for me. good. but weird. thankful, nonetheless.

now, i've been keeping myself in shape, and i have tidied up my appearance (no more keeping up with the hip crowd, i dress "maturely" now i guess.), and i am kind of proud to say that i probably make more money than anyone in my age group! not to mention that since i've stopped partying (slowed down tremendously, TBH), i now have extra cash to expand my wardrobe and house decor and my bike & hobbies. and yes, now i can send my mother more grocery money!

this 'behavior' however, has baffled my friends & relatives. they worry that i dont seem to want to find a girlfriend anymore! i have even unintentionally friendzoned 4 women in the course of 1 year. "how dare you!!" - i know! i have stopped being overly friendly with people (women) to avoid miscommunication. in their defense, i can understand how odd it is for a guy to just wannabe friends. anyway, this amazes me, because i can no longer relate to my friends' concerns. all i can do is just smile back like a silly monkey. because i know no amount of explanation can make them understand why im deliberately staying away from relationships. sometimes, i just want to tell them, "hey i'm gay, surprise!" just to mess with their heads.. (that would actually make it alot easier, if i really were.. you know.. gay)

so if you ask me personally, would i come back to work the fields again one day..?

my answer is "why?"

and the beauty of being an MGTOW is: if one were to answer the 'whys', i still dont really care what the reasons are, because they are not 'My' reasons.

yes i am no good to society, i know that. therefore, we (society and i) have a mutual understanding: we do not stand in each others way, and i wont bother your daughters(too much)!

anyway, i hope you understand that MGTOWs are basically guys saying "screw this, im going to the cabin by the lake and fish all day". but given the diverse background and cultural differences, most man can't do this (although he desperately wants to), but he does it anyway; to the best of his abilities. everyone has their own little versions of MGTOW.

we are not particularly PUAs or MRAs or whatever 'movement' you can think of. in essence, we are just a group of guys unanimously saying "fuck it".

so i am very happy to report that i'm never coming back! the air is nicer over here! you should come over some time, and maybe we could have some steak or something. i'll cook, no problem!

Actually, from the description you give of this "place" you all seem to be at, I am starting to think, "hmmm, sounds like a great place...maybe it's not so bad afterall..."

I have noticed a pattern with me, and I would be interested to know if other women feel the same.

I tend to react more strongly to younger men GTOW than older...but I guess that makes sense from a biological point of view.Also, I am starting to see that it is not The Angy Man who scares me, (now that I am better equipped to deal with the emotion of rage I sometimes feel in their words), I realise that The Angry Man is not the 'problem' (excuse the terminology - I am struggling to find the right words to use), the 'problem' is The Indifferent man. The one who is speaking 'french', like you did :-)

Because this man is well and truly out. Not just of the village but out of the country.

Whilst I am happy for The Indifferent Man purely because of the fact that his indifference means he has got past the pain behind anger, I am also acutely aware that he is behind a wall.

Being 'just friends' works very well for many people, so that's great that it is working for you.

Now, I am going to say something you might find offensive.

Although I can see the attraction of MGTOW now, having been indoctrinated in its merits, I have to say that I don't think it could ever become 'my thing'.

I was thinking, hey, if so many men are GTOW, then a lot of women by default are also GTOW too...

But actually, I go back to my original idea that the women are still in the village.

It's the whole idea that it all feels a bit, well, selfish...

Don't be offended. I am just trying to put across a view from a female perspective. Because we like to surround ourselves with others, 'freedom' is not usually a woman's priority, like it is a man's, in terms of needs, right? If it is imposed on her, fine, she'll accept it and enjoy it. But she will usually not seek it unless she is the EPL type...but I would argue that even that is a product of feminism and not really most women's cup of tea.

I musn't forget to say how nice you are to warn me about the burnout thing. I appreciate it, and I'll try to heed your words.

Whatever you do, keep enjoying it. Sounds like you really are blessed. Stay that way.

You must be telepathic or something...I thought about this very bible passage this morning.Then I began to feel ill, so I turned my thoughts to something else.Now you are forcing me to think about it again.;-)

I regret to tell you, Spacetraveler, that you probably won't find us. That door you see ajar is the village gate, there is a whole huge world beyond it, and we are heading out into that world - with regret, with despair, with exasperation, but ever with our eyes toward the horizon.

You and I aren't even using the same map. What you see as "the village," more and more of us men are seeing as "the Plantation" - where we men are as the slaves and you women are like unto the privileged family of The Massa. And we see it getting worse, more dangerous, with harsher and surer punishment and heavier chains ... take a look at A Voice For Men and their discussion of the Australian Plan, if you aren't aware; take a look at the VAWA in the USA; take a careful look at the FBI's new definition of rape, and notice that it has been written very carefully to target men and exculpate women.

As for "obligatory men's studies" - taught by a feminist woman teacher, in a school system that has been taken over by feminism? You offer that as a way to "level the playing field?" Pardon my hysteric laughter!

No, Spacetraveler. You're going to have to dismantle, destroy, extirpate, the results of fifty years of institutional misandry to level the playing field. And I don't expect you and your sisters will do that.

Maybe a bit of Tennyson could help to explain?This is from his "Ulysses":

Old age hath yet his honour and his toil; Death closes all: but something ere the end, Some work of noble note, may yet be done, Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods. The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks: The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world. Push off, and sitting well in order smite The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the western stars, until I die.

(Keep safe in the village. Let the hearth-fires burn warm and brightly. Don't wait up for us.)

Since 'ordinary' is relative to other men, women will continue to be miserable. And the only men who will escape this cold-hearted judgment of men(and boys) are those who go their own way. Since I've stopped putting a premium on how female supremacists(women) rate me, realizing it only benefits them, I've been truly happy. Which is what I seek to be, as opposed to 'extraordinary.'

For what it's worth, if men's studies were ever to happen in schools, I would have thought they wouldn't be taught with a feminist 'slant' as this would defeat the purpose. It would have to be part of a wider infrastructure...

You may or may not want to be extraordinary in someone's eyes. That's up to you.

But for the woman who is looking, only the extraordinary is good enough. And then it is up to her to be nice to you to make your life better than if you were on your own. The point is, she has to care enough about you to make the effort. It is impossible to do that with 'ordinary'.A good woman will go to extraordinary lengths for a man if he is special enough to her. What 'special' means to her is another matter...

No, I won't judge those women, same as I won't judge you for swearing at me.

I have said it before: I don't like such women. In fact I have strong opinions about them. But that's as far as it goes. I don't feel I have any right to 'judge' anyone, no matter how much their thinking deviates from mine. Call them out on their behaviour, yes, but I am not into public shaming per se.('Let he without sin cast the first stone' and all that...)

You might see this as me sticking up blindly for 'Team Woman'. If this is the case, it would be incorrect, because I won't judge a man either. I am too busy correcting my own flaws to spend time pronouncing judgment on others.

As a long time MGHOW I would come back to the village if I could change one thing as described in your original post. That initiation rite – what a horrendous way to treat your young men – dumping them out in wilderness and just hoping they survive and come back – that is what I would change.

If welcomed back, I would take expeditions of young men out into the wilderness – guide them, train them, teach them how to survive there. I would explain the virtues and rewards as well as the risks and pitfalls of life in the wilderness as well as life in the village from the perspective of someone who has lived and survived both places. Then let them choose.

What do you say Spacetraveler? You being a member in good standing of the Village tell me would I be welcomed back? Or would your fellow villagers balk and out vote you because I would change the status quo of the initiation rite?

And perhaps the status quo in other areas as well, those that chose to stay in the village I would teach to challenge what is unfair (many of them already seem to get this) so perhaps more importantly how to go about effectively making changes.

The end result might mean less privilege than you and your sister villagers enjoy now but a more fair and equitable arrangement for your brother villagers.

It would have to be part of an infrastructure that acknowledged men as people, too.

I'm willing to stipulate that you yourself, Spacetraveller, may personally "acknowledge men as people, too" - but your sisters, or if I may borrow from an old slogan from the 1970s N.O.W. ("Sisterhood Is Powerful") and say The Sisterhood, are devoted to denying people-hood to men.

A recent article on A Voice For Men, "Socialized psychopathy, modeling female misbehavior," includes this statement which (very unfortunately!) illustrates the root of the problem:

"The present social landscape is one in which women have no disincentive for antisocial behavior, and in which men cannot logically trust women to do anything except exploit, betray and harm them."

As men realize this, and recognize that it explains the current legal and social climate of "the village", we also recognize that the village is no sanctuary for us.

I took a metaphoric blow to the head by interchanging the initiation you describe and the negative 'thing' that has forced a lot of men back into 'the wilderness'.

The first one was actually deemed 'positive' by a lot of men. Examples are going to war, getting inscripted into the army, as someone pointed out. The point is, it was not instigated by women. The women were against it in fact. So it was something for men, by men.I find it interesting that you think it horrendous. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that it IS, but then I would as a woman.

The other kind, is what men like you are REALLY complaining about. The one unleashed upon them by feminism.

To answer your question, OF COURSE you will be welcomed back.Look, I am clearly not the only woman who is de-plugged from the matrix. There are women everywhere who realise they were lied to. Even those who were feminists. There is a page on Christian J's(What men are saying about women) website which is entitled, How feminism ruined my life, and is full of 'confessions' of women who are sick of feminism.

There are programmes like thishttp://understandmen.com/

which both men and women are going to. I personally have not been on one, because I am not in the right geographical location, but I would if I could!

So good things are happening, but slowly.

An elderly relative of mine is of the opinion that younger people overanalyse everything, which is why the world is how it is today.I disagree.I think it is precisely because people go blindly into things that they get burned.

In the really olden days, the rules were followed by everyone, so life was easy. You didn't need to study anything.Then someone changed the rules without informing the rest of us, and now we have to study everything to get anywhere.

But that can only be a good thing. Because he who has had to learn a trick becomes better than the 'natural'.I am glad I am learning. But that's just me.

"Welcome back to the fold"? Are you KIDDING me? Obviously you have never seen the stacks of divorce papers awaiting returning soldiers. You have never seen the look on a man's face when he finds out his wife is pregnant by another man during his absence. You've never seen the reaction to a Dear John letter by a man in a war zone.

You obviously don't remember VietNam veteran's returning to be told how "oppressive" they are and how "unfair" to women their VA benefits are.

Ever notice how many homeless "heroes" are panhandling on street corners? How many suicides have taken the lives of said "heroes"?

Is Hillary Clinton a man all of a sudden? Women have NEVER cheered for war, or shamed able bodied men for not participating? It's all just elder men's doing?

Remember the "Crazed Viet Nam veteran phase? Ever watch Nasty Grace tearfully feature a fallen serviceman just after bitterly dismissing PTSD for a "monster" who acted out? Or her bitter, bitter tirade against the Constitution to her adoring female fans right before she switches over to her Dead Hero monologue? That same dead soldier who took an oath to defend the Constitution she's pissng on?

However ... you seem to have very little understanding for the phenomena you are attempting to describe.

It's not only that you lack the experience (doubtful a woman can know what it means to BE a MGHOW), but that you don't seem to have read around the issue at all.

MGTOW is not initiation. MGTOW is goodbye forever.

As for the notion that MGTOW are all old dudes who got burned ... hello, I was a MGHOW in my early 20s and have never been badly hurt by women.

I repeat ... this is no 'initiation.' I do not plan to 'return' to women after a period in the wilderness.

MGTOW IS a form of MRA, it is passive resistance, a conscious opting out of those 'obligations' that do us more harm than good; and in many cases are literally killing us.

Sex isn't a man's primary physical need. Before sex he needs oxygen, food, water, free movement, warmth and protection from the elements. All of which he can provide for himself, and has been doing since the dawn of time. Sex does not rank with the aforementioned, because survival is possible without it.

And: as a MGTOW who has been able to devote much of his time to reflection, meditation and prayer - I find concern with the physical things, beyond the aforementioned necessities, to be rather vulgar.

You don't understand what MGTOW is from the perspective of men; that much is obvious. You are looking at MGTOW from the perspective of a woman, and your concern is how it might impact women. These are the terms in which you see it, and typically, you believe that its (potential) impact on women is its reason for being.

You must understand, firstly, that the world, and least of all MGTOW, do not revolve around you.

Then, you should immerse yourself in MGTOW and, no less (perhaps even more) importantly, MRA writings - I mean the high theory stuff along with the more general commentary and activism.

MRA writing is arguably more important, because MRAs articulate more coherently and more often the social problems that create MGTOW. MGTOW only need to sense that something is amiss; they do not need to be critical theorists to understand that they are better off in permanent exile. MRAs, particularly those whose writing is of a more abstract persuasion, give articulation to this.

If you immerse yourself in this sort of writing, you may begin to understand MGTOW.

But it will probably take a tragedy to a male family member to get you to open your eyes.

I cannot fully understand what it is to be any kind of man, least of all a MGHOW because I am not a man. I accept that. And what's more, I don't see it as a criticism because in fact it is both undesirable and impossible for me to be a man.

In the same way as it would be undesirable and impossible for you to be a woman (I presume).

Having said that, I have tried to go as far as I can with the 'seeing the other point of view' thing.

I do hear all the MGTOW who say they are not coming back. And yes, it is a rather selfish attitude to hope some men come back to the 'fold' but I fully agree that the system is heavily stacked against a man these days having gone deeper into the evidence.

And yet there are some men who, if they see positive changes will reconsider. I see you are not one of them, but I seem to have encountered a fair number on this blog. I will accept your decision (not that I or any other woman has a choice) but will engage with the men who want to hang around long enough to help change things.

The world does not revolve around women alone. Of course not.I never suggested it did.

I am sure Dr Kevin Lehman's theories on the primary need of a man assumes that he is fed, watered and is protected from the elements. These needs are not unique to any one gender.

I continue to immerse myself in MRA teaching, because I know my education in this field is not yet complete. But I can only hope to get so far, I expect. Because beyond that I will need to BE a man. I like men, but the last time I wanted to be a man, I was still in kindergarten and was fascinated by how high the boys could pee.Things have changed a bit for me since then (we hope).

:-)

I have already had the misfortune of seeing a few male family members suffer, yes. But then who hasn't? It's not unique in this world anymore. Might that be a motivating factor for me on this journey?You bet.It's not just a selfishness thing.

Spacetraveler I did read in your original post and again here how you and other women in your village were against the initiation rite - OK I get that. I’d like to move off the village analogy and address something else in your response here.

Specifically “...men like you are REALLY complaining about...” Men like me?? And what was I complaining about?

For starters, I do not subscribe to the AWALT theory espoused by many in the MGTOW camp. I have a wonderful older sister who really gets it – I had a terrific female boss early on in my career that mentored me, I have an amazing niece too.

I harbor no anger or resentment toward the women I was romantically involved with in my past. I’m long over any hurt, bitterness and regret. What is done is done.

I identify with MGTOW because they are men not pursuing or obsessed with pursuing relationships like so many are. Some of the experiences they write about really resonate with me, others not so much. They’ve given me some fresh insights and perspective. They are a source of strength.

Unlike many of your readers (judging by the comments) I am already familiar with the concept you are describing. However I don't completely agree with the tone of it - though I don't think it is a tone that you have yourself, but instead, one that tends to go along with the notion of men going their own way.

This is the tone, or assumption, that men do not need women -in fact you even say this in your post. I disagree. I think women are needed just as much as men in the final analysis - i.e. the perpetuation of a man's bloodline, or the species as a whole. Until we can figure out how to breed children without women, women are just as important as men. I also think you overestimate a woman's dependence on a male. Don't get me wrong, I am no feminist and think there have been some major problems. But I keep running into this misogynist attitude - which is almost understandable coming from men, but I think a quick reflection on the facts shows how excessive this backlash against feminism has become itself.

I also found this comment very interesting: "There are many false imitations of initiation in today's society. Inner city gangs are a prime example." It was interesting first because I think it is a powerful observation, but secondly, because I wonder what makes you think of gags as a "false" initiation? I think they are perhaps one of the truest forms, being very much more organic and fresher than (for example) the ritual you describe in your post.

By 'men like you', I meant MGTOW. And by 'complaining about' I meant that the general theme on this thread is one of dissatisfaction that the village is not that great. So, again a question of terminology, but 'complaining' in this sense means 'expressing that a certain standard was not met'.

It is not necessarily a negative thing as many of MGTOW have explained. It is a simple matter of stating the case. I get that.

So I was getting away from the 'dumped in the jungle' type initiation to express to you that the real issue at hand was the whole feminism thing, i.e. that was what was of more importance to most MGTOW and not the initiation you were referring to.

You mention your sister, niece and former boss. See, how unfair is that? The women who are 'unavailable' to you are 'great' but not the outside world, so to speak...

:-(

Don't worry, I don't think AMALT! That would be unfair...Like I said, the 'men like you' phrase was simply to identify you as MGTOW - and specifically of the group who are not coming back.

I got one last question:Is it me or are there many MGTOW who are quoting bible passges here...you must be the fourth or fifth.

I am curious...have I just unearthed a Christian fraternity here, or is religion a specific part of this process of Awakening that surrounds MGTOW?

So what I am asking is, are you religious anyway, or did you become religious after GYOW? Is it part of the MGTOW inner confidence/inner growth/spirituality? The reason I ask is that many of you seem to be wax lyric-ing about how happy and at peace you are.

I am not knocking it, I think it's great if that's the case!

Or are you not in fact religious at all, but sending me the bible quotes as a purely intellectual exercise, i.e. just to make your point or clarify/back up what you are saying?

That comment about men not needing women is being confirmed more and more strongly by your 'brothers', Rules!I think men don't need to be with a woman, i.e. have her around/live with. But women need to have people around...it's a question of different wiring.

Sure, both genders need each other to reproduce...but the MGTOW are telling me that they are happy not to. I found this really hard to believe at first, but I am starting to believe it now.Your view appears to be the minority view here :-)I think you are the very first man to mention the word 'misogynistic'. Am I paranoid to worry that you might get jumped upon for this?

I think the inner city gangs are a false initiation because they are an attempt to recreate the 'original' initiation (which is still performed in some 'primitive' societies today) but 1. They are destructive (violence, murder, drugs), so in this sense not a positive force.2. They are self-driven. By this I mean men or boys of roughly the same age perform these initiation 'rites' on each other. The original type of initiation was specifically dished out by the village elders because they had already BEEN men (still are :-) and are passing on 'something' (how to be a man).The gang member who initiates another member might be slightly older, but is he really qualified for this job?But I get that for the newer gang member, it is a 'family' of men that he is joining, so for him, it's better than nothing.

OK first let me comment on what you said about the women I cited as being “... unavailable…” to me.

Well yes – but at the same time remember I am unavailable to them. I don’t want to get into a rant here but women judge and treat men they perceive as available (whether interested in them or not) much differently than well everyone else in their world. I think the fact I am unavailable to the women I cited allows the better angels of their nature to come forward.

That is one reason I think MGTOW works so well for me. Being unavailable and uninterested seems to bring out these better angels in women. When I identified myself as generally available or interested I seldom saw them (exceptions already noted). I don’t MGTOW in order to get the angel behavior – I am just making an observation. MGTOW has its own rewards – this being one happy one.

Citing the bible verse in my prior post was my way of expressing what I was trying to say in terms that I thought would be meaningful to you and therefore convey a better understanding.

To answer your question I do not see Christianity linked in any way with MGTOW. I like drinking water too – so I am sure do many other MGTOW or Christians but neither of these are cabals where us water drinkers go. I hope that conveys the point.

My history with religion is somewhat more complicated to explain. If you ever take an intellectual sojourn into that subject like you’ve done here with MGTOW - please post the link here.

yes it might seem 'selfish'. no doubt, i wholeheartedly agree! but.. to whom, might I ask? I hardly see my choice (to not marry) as depriving anybody of anything.

the way i see it, by staying single, i can keep more money, and am able & available to care for my parents when they are older. i would also have the extra means to care for my younger siblings as well.

but if by selfish, do you mean my choice is possibly depriving a woman of a potential husband? but then id have to ask, who is this fictional hypothetical woman? do you see her? i dont! (and hopefully never will :D ) so i guess we can rule that possibility out.

but really, to be fair to you, i can understand how it seems like a selfish lifestyle. but that's why i said earlier that i acknowledge the fact that 'i am no good to society'.

nonetheless, i think we can agree that we at least acknowledge each other's existence. and dont worry about it not being 'your thing'. MGTOW is really not for the majority of men, and much less, a woman. actually, it's surprising that you'd even consider the ideas and philosophy of MGTOW in the first place! most would just brush us off as "losers" or "misogynist pigs".. so that's very brave and forward of you. so +1! here, have an internet cookie.

well, all i can say is, thank you, for this. you're a blessing. so You stay the way You are!

I want to give you credit where credit's due - because the response I got elsewhere, for the comments I made on this post, have impelled me to start a blog of my own on Wordpress.

Being very very new to the "responsibility" of having my own blog - I just started it today - I want to let you know about http://beijaflorbeyondthesunset.wordpress.com and its heritage. We are probably going to disagree - even battle against each other - but I want to thank you, publicly, on your own blog, for impelling me to take up the blogger challenge.

I took a look...and had to duck for cover, figuratively speaking.Whoa! You're right, we ARE probably going to disagree, on a lot of issues LOL.But hopefully we can do it with mutual respect.I will defntely hold up my end of this promise. No shaming language, no personal insults, no disrespect: I do solemnly promise.

Selfish is definitely one way of looking at it. And for many women, it is. A man is a cash machine, a sperm bank and a security guard all rolled into one, AND NOTHING MORE.To other women, he is someone they actually want to share the highs and the lows of life with. Yes with all your financial security, her life will be better with you than without you if she earns much less than you. But here's the thing: if you lost your job, or fell ill, or had an accident, that woman will do everything she can to pull you from the brink. With your money, you could provide very well for your elderly parents one day. Brilliant! But wouldn't it be so much nicer if there was that personal touch, if your Mum could be looked after under your own roof by your own wife, instead of going into a home?I was watching an interview of Queen Margarethe of Denmark yesterday on the occasion of her 40th anniversary as Queen. The love and warmth with with she was talking about her daughter-in-law Princess Mary was remarkable...

Being a last-born, I don't have little brothers. But if YOU were my little brother, I would say to you: I know you are not looking an' all...but if you ever met a girl like the one I describe above, don't pass her over because AWALT. I agree she will be incredibly hard to find, and you are not looking anyway!She is afterall not on Jerseyshore, or TOWIE (The Only Way is Essex), the British equivalent, with her breasts hanging out and proving to the world that she too can f*** like a man (excuse the 'french'). She is definitely not on Jerry Springer. Like you, she is quietly going about her business, learning something in school, doing a job that's useful to society.

GYOW is fine. I get it. But if ever you meet a good one...

OK, talking over. Thanks for the cookie. Munching on it now. Hmm... tasty - where'd you get it? :-)

@SpacetravellerYesterday, Bellita, I would have said to you, "Maybe whatever you do, it will not work. Because the ship sailed before you could get to the port."

Honestly, I've had similar thoughts--but they were along the lines of, "My husband was aborted before he was even born." That was a few years ago, when I had no idea to what extent the feminist cancer had hurt the world. (Abortion is the quick kill. The ideology is like nuclear fall out that you think you can ignore until the next generation of babies are born.)

And sometimes I still feel this way--that no matter what I do, it won't matter. Perhaps it's true and I will be another sort of virgin martyr for the modern age. I understand this possibility and yet it doesn't seem a good enough reason to give up. I think it is possible to beat the odds, and have many thoughts on this that I hope to share with you in the future, when I'm much more articulate than I am now.

It is interesting that the subject of the present post, Tim Tebow, almost suffered this fate, due to a medical problem his mother encountered when she was carrying him. And which makes him (and his family) pro-life.

I understand what you are saying. This current situation in our world is deeply miserable.

But as we both know, that's why we live in faith, hope and...

Gotta stop here...:-)

Chin up, hun. You are one of the nicest girls I know. That's gotta count for something...

"That comment about men not needing women is being confirmed more and more strongly by your 'brothers'"

That comment is being confirmed by a very small number of bloggers, all of whom are strong enough minded to start blogs to voice their opinions. While I will stop barely short of calling them outliers (because I don't consider myself one), I think everyone needs to read their writing and consider their ideas with a big grain of salt. Also, they are my brothers only in that they share my sex. I do agree with some of what they write, but by no means all.

"I had no idea to what extent the feminist cancer had hurt the world."

I think you need a LITTLE sympathy for feminism. It would be "unpatriotic" for a woman not to have some - maybe even unattractive ;)

Read this: http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

This was one of the essays that lead to some of the first feminist writings.

In general, I think all readers need to be cautious of bowing to the strength of writing and force of opinion that is represented in all of these blogs. Don't forget you are reading opinions. I get worried when I see that it is affecting people's moods... This stuff should be interesting, not depressing. You aren't living in a different world than you thought before you encountered these ideas, you are simply learning where the "present world" (state of affairs) came from. It could be far worse; and don't be so sure that it was better before!

You are right, sometimes we get lost in our own and other people's thoughts...not healthy!

Even more frightening for me that reading Schopenhauer's thesis (which I had read before elsewhere), there were parts I actually AGREED with, deep in my heart. But of course not all. I disagree for example that women stay in a child-like state all their lives. It simply cannot be true. It takes a certain maturity to live a fulfilled woman's life. Childrearing/parenting cannot be performed by another child...

You are spot on when you say we should not let what we read here affect our collective mood. We should find a way to separate/compartmentalise. I think this is something women in particular find hard to do. We shall have to take a leaf out of men's books for this one!

Tell me Andrew, I am genuinely interested in something about you - how do you manage to stay unfazed about feminism? Don't get me wrong - I admire this. But I see how RARE it is. How do you do it?

I guess I really haven't made up my mind about feminism... But because the answer isn't obvious to me, I am sure that those who disparage it so strongly haven't through it through enough themselves (or at least, very few have, and those are unlikely to be as vocal as what I've been reading). I will eventually have more articulate things to say about this, but for now, these are the things that give me pause before I lay down the hammer of condemnation:

Feminism hasn't changed things anywhere near as much as some of these blogs seem to suggest. There was never an age in which all women were feminine and submissive, nor a time when men were all masculine and dominant. A cursory read of history shows this. Many people, particularly conservatives, tend to idealize the past; but we see it ideally only because we see it partially - like a memory, which grows fonder the vaguer it becomes.

"Feminism" is too easy a scapegoat for some of the inter-sex dynamics that have always existed and have at times enrage(d) both sexes. Wishful thinking heralds back to a time without those problems (which, again, didn't exist), and anticipates another to come (equally impossible - at least not by re-tracing our steps). Sure, some things might have been better, and some undoubtedly were; but other things were worse.

Ideas strong enough to spur movements don't form in a vacuum. Feminism wasn't the whim of some lunatic; it was the voice of a population. If normal people collectively thought it was the best way forward, I am willing to give it some credibility. While it wasn’t therefore an undoubtedly right response to the state of affairs at the time, it couldn’t have been FLAGRANTLY wrong one either. Careful thought is warranted. I don't deny the possibility that it has since gone to excesses, possibly great ones.

Finally, and this might be my masculine intuition kicking in here: the TONE of those bashing feminism so strongly is far too SMUG for me to agree with (I don't mean you or Bellita, by any means). Ideas are easily made to appear logical when they are well-presented and passionately articulated, but that same tone is often a red flag for rash judgement.

Long story short: it takes a far deeper understanding of human nature and history than I have seen evidenced on any of these blogs to bash a movement as powerful as Feminism.

@AndrewI think you need a LITTLE sympathy for feminism. It would be "unpatriotic" for a woman not to have some - maybe even unattractive ;)

Don't you mean, "unmatriotic"? ;)

It's really a double-edged sword, isn't it? For naught so vile upon the earth doth live . . . I'm very grateful for the education I was able to receive and know that it wouldn't have been available to me had I been born a scant few decades earlier . . . but then I read posts like the Private Man's about college-educated women being unable to find husbands and seeing myself and many of my closest friends among them. (And this is just a petty, personal cost.)

I think that if certain human tendencies weren't already there to begin with, no ideology would be able to do much damage anyway. Feminism opened a door, but we didn't have to dash through it the way we did.

You have a point that feminism is too easy a scapegoat. My own thoughts about it are tied to my thoughts about Marxism. Inasmuch as the former is the daughter of the latter, I am suspicious of it. (And I'm suspicious of revolutionary ideas in general. I tend to side with the monarchists and other bastions of tradition, and when I've been drinking, I can make a hilarious case against the printing press.) And yet I do recognize that there were some injustices that went uncorrected until the feminists--and heck, the Communists--pointed them out and attempted to do something. Whether the cost was worth it requires a lot more study and debate than I'm ready to go into at the moment--but you already know my instinct is to say it wasn't.

I must say, like you I sometimes feel that the cost of feminism outweighs its benefits.However, this is where personal responsibility comes into play...so I take the education that feminism accorded me, but I refuse to embrace the hook up culture that came with that education. That is my best chance of getting to eat my cake and have it too.

But I can't help thinking about a point Andrew made: are we really that sure that we needed feminism to get our education? Isn't there always an 'otion C'? Must it always be a choice between patriarchy and feminism? Are we sure the 'good old days' were really that great?

Always nice to have a 'voice of reason' like Andrew's playing itself in your head. Forces you to think and not go too far fom one extreme to another.

You're not getting it. Men go their own way. End of statement. They leave, and they don't care if you fix every law, every injustice, every social ill, if you could (which not you, nor anyone, can).

They're GONE. Don't even bother to wave goodbye, they're not going to wave back. This isn't some form of initiation in a primitive society to impress upon young minds the importance of societal mores and values. This is goodbye.

At best, the most you can possibly hope for is to slow the hemorrhage of lifeblood from your village. And even then, there will still be tens of thousands of teenaged boys whose fathers are prevented from any contact, who have seen what the newest forms of feminism/marxism/socialism/hate have done to the world...

I have two sons, five grandsons and a granddaughter. I weep for them, as my grandfather wept for me, after I returned from Beirut in 1983, complete with two extra pounds of metal shrapnel in my body, and a chest full of silver, brass and gold.

Yup, there's a wife. I married The Last Of The Nice Girls, actually one who was part of the very first wave of feminism. All she ever wanted was a fair shake, equality under the law and in the workforce. She also believes that women should be women, not men, and attempting to mimic men in the workplace will drive them insane.

I am pleased to hear that for you, a good woman was there to make your life at least a little sweeter than if you were on your own.

I can tell you that your wife is not the very LAST 'Nice girl' left (even though she is clearly one of the BEST :-)

There are pockets of Nice Girls around even in this cesspool we call society. Your sons and grandsons may struggle to find one, granted, but with your guidance, and if they want to, they will find her. Just also make sure your granddaughter takes after her grandma.

If a man chooses to GHOW, I have no intention of stopping him. But to those who want to stay and have done the necessary work on themselves, I say this: there are good women who are doing the same. These women are like your wife.

With all due respect, miss, I'm going to advise my grandsons to go their own way. I'm also going to get my wife to advise our granddaughter to go her own way.

Why?

Some say divorce is rising, some say marriage is dropping. I believe both are true. Regardless, marriage in today's world is simply analogous to walking into a casino, dropping ALL your money, assets, home and future income on the roulette table and betting on red. I've provided seven figure trusts for all my grandchildren, and their fathers have almost doubled that amount. I retired at 40, my wife retired at 42.

Why on earth would I advise them to search carefully, when, by your admission, nice girls are nearly impossible to find?

My wife and I never bought into the romantic crap that "you complete me". I am a complete person, she is a complete person, and instead of 1/2 + 1/2=1, we believe it's more like 1+1=3. I am more than I was, alone, but alone I was still a fully complete adult human being, as she was. Marriage is a synergy of emotions, mental acuity and cognitive enhancement. It's not an opinion, it's a fact... but only if you find someone capable of loving themselves as much as they love you.

Sounds trite, I know... but cliches exist because life itself is one big cliche. I've only recently discovered the "manosphere" on the internet, and freely confess I was an 'alpha' in my youth. You'd be surprised at how many women melt for a man in uniform with four Purple Hearts as a combat medic. (Scars didn't hurt my chances at female interest, either, though they hurt like hell acquiring them)

But, unlike the alphas of today, I didn't use 'em and lose 'em, or in today's slang "pump and dump". I have no clue if I had Game, as it is called, but between my separation from the US Navy, and my wedding day, I had nine different women ask me to marry them. Being the modern man I was (for that time period) I was careful and I accepted the ninth womans' proposal. I worked damned hard to make myself a 'good catch'. As you mention in your movie review of Empire of the Sun, "the harder I worked, the luckier I got to be". I'd rather be lucky than good, any day.

Thing is, back in those days (I sound like my father now, recalling the Great Depression and World War II) Nice Girls were rare... extremely rare. Women were declaring that a rape accusation meant that the court should convict on their word alone. It did, and now dozens of men are being cleared of all convictions by DNA proven innocence. Women lie, miss, and women lie about lying. So do men, but rarely about criminal accusations, only criminal defense.

The honest truth in today's world is that my grandsons cannot expect to find a Nice Girl, and my granddaughter will never find a Good Decent Hardworking man. Being the old fashioned guy that I am, I'm even more protective of my granddaughter in many ways, but she has female privilege that my grandsons will never enjoy. For some, my grandsons are nothing more than future rapists.

My father was a Doc on Guadalcanal. Never heard his stories, but I've heard plenty from others. I think of the chapter in William Lederer's "Ensign O'Toole And Me," where the journalist asked a ward full of combat-wounded - "If only one medal were to be given out in this war, who would you want to receive it?"

By acclaim, a Doc.

My hat's off to you. Had I been a couple of years older, I might have followed in your footsteps, and my father's.

Thanks for your kind words, but I just did my duty to the very best of my ability. I did some stupid things as well, such as voluntarily serving under USMC regulations... Gunny Sgts tend to be a bit crazed in their enforcement of said regs, til they realize you're a real "Doc" not some wannabe Marine. I had to out-hump my company top kick on a 20 mile hike around Beirut before he left me alone... of course, at the time I was 18, and he was 40, but only three of us finished in front of him during the patrol. The rest got a 'motivational pep talk' consisting of the worst duty he could find for a month.

It was also the last patrol we humped before the Embassy was blown up, after that, we "Peacekeepers" were fired upon every time we went outside the wire.

I intended to stay in uniform, with Recon my choice of assignments, but the barracks bombing in Oct. 1983 changed all of 1/8 Marines' destinies.

My eldest son recently finished his last tour of duty, he will most likely be a medical discharge like his old man. I'm pretty sure the VA will help him out for a couple years, then budget cuts will force them to abandon all but the worst cases, like Clinton did during his tenure as Commander-in-Chief.

I wonder sometimes, how the USA can continue to screw over our vets, yet patriots continue to volunteer to serve their country that does not want them... the Dept of Homeland Security even warned that vets were potential homegrown terrorists.

I don't know if it's insane inanity or inane insanity, but if the United States of Amazonia continues to devalue all males, I predict they will have a difficult time getting any man to 'man up' for any kind of participation in what passes for society today.

Speaking of which, can we all agree that no should use that phrase 'man up' unless you're male? If I am not to define a female by my opinions of her, why are we paying attention to any female who attempts to define our masculinity, by her opinions?

Certainly, any woman is allowed the freedom of speech guaranteed by the United States of America Constitution, but just because someone spews hatred does not mean we have to feed the troll. I'm not talking about this blogs' owner/author, because she seems to genuinely want to understand the decisions made by such movements as Men Going Their Own Way, but the seriously misandrist feminists or marriage poor females who demand that we men should conform to their new societal definitions and gender roles.

I find it almost funny how these women consistently strip men of their rights, then complain when men refuse the role decided for them.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate women, or even feminists. I don't even hate the ones that hate me. It's a waste of my time, and a waste of energy. I've recently taken up a new hobby of blacksmithing, to improve both my health and my focus on staying sharp. I've read dozens of articles the past few weeks on the 'manosphere' and admit to a large amount of confusion regarding the amount of energy spent on griping about females.

Hell, BeijaFlor. You're a man, Going His Own Way. So are many others. The vast majority of women have bought into Their Own Way, let them go. I can understand bitter feelings over divorce, alimony, child support and other issues, but the truth is, even if you could force the laws to be changed to more equitable solutions, even if you could somehow force the government to get out of the business of marriage and thus, divorce, you're still stuck with a overwhelmingly large majority of women who believe their shit don't stink.

I'm pretty sure you can figure out my advice to any man, even if the above dreams of a better society were to come true.

Just read the post about Anonymous commentary, and self identification.

Firstly, I don't have a blog, because my personal life is so boring (to others) that I seriously misdoubt anyone would read it. Therefore, I chose Anonymous as the self identifier... it's just too easy for people to backtrace who you are, and I don't need any nutjobs of any gender deciding to pay me a visit. I admire your willingness to put your views online with data that can used to find you, but given the state of our world today, I'm not about to do that.

As for my category, by your definitions, I would have to choose (1), a Man Going His Own Way. Yes, I am married, but I've got a wife who decided that my Way was parallel to her Way, and we both then decided it would be fun to try the journey together. Looking back, it may have been the craziest decision I (or she) ever made, but it's been the best damned ride of my life.

Understand something... going my own way does not preclude any man, or any woman for that matter, from having a spouse along for the journey. Two points, however, first, the entire concept of men dropping out of a society that has devalued them as individuals as well as an entire gender, pretty much means that they're alone. Some of them (and myself by self identification) are married, but almost all the married guys are extremely unhappy in their marriage. If I were to guess, I'd say I am the only one so far who is pretty happy in marriage, so perhaps I am deluding myself about my MGTOW status.

But, I can tell you the second point is that, if I end up alone sometime in the future, there is not a chance in hell that I would remarry. I'd rather find someone who hates me, and give them half of everything I own, and walk away with my heart and soul intact, thank you very much. I'm not about to blame any particular generation, but it seems to me that feminists today have declared war on males. As quoted by a guy on a MGTOW site:

This is funny... it's like hunting animals into extinction and then wondering where they all went.

I admit to being a rather dominant type personality, and my wife is a bit submissive, but it's not a 1940s type marriage. It's a bald admission of gender roles, but at the same time, we both LIKE our traditional roles. I commit love rather fiercely, miss.. I only know this one way to love. Frankly, the concept of divorce is... unknown, to me, though I can understand some reasons for divorce.

Free advice, which is worth exactly what you pay for it:

Do not marry someone who is not honest with you, or with themselves.

Do not marry someone who does not share your views about marriage roles, and who does not understand that marriage is sometimes 50/50, sometimes 90/10 and sometimes 10/90.

I seek to improve myself, everyday, Miss SpaceTraveler. I see my own failing far better than anyone else, and my wife sees hers better, too. But, it seems to me, many MANY people in todays world cannot even accept that they have failings. From what I have been able to discern, so far, the MGTOW movement seems to consist exclusively of men who are all too aware of their own failings, and they also see that women are not aware of theirs. A common thread throughout all MGTOW sites is that women immediately exclaim, "NOT ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT!"

Here's the kicker. Even some single guys who are GTOW are willing to accept that not all women are like that. But they also point out that the percentage is so small, far less than 1%, that it is much too difficult to sift through thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of women to find their One and Only. So, they go their way.

As for 'room mates', I think that's a bit too personal, but because I like your writing and your honest appraisal of your self, I'll tell you that no, we're not simply room mates. After a very bad event a few years back, our sex lives suffered certainly, but it was really only a drop from 2-3 times a week to perhaps twice a month. Age has a funny way of reducing the libido for both genders, but health issues can destroy it.

As Mick Jagger sang, "What a drag it is, getting old..."

I suppose you could say that it is an oxymoron for a married man, much less a happily married man, to be going his own way. But, think of it like this... I Go My Own Way, and my wife is on Her Own Way, which we both agreed was quite parallel and close to my own. Why not Go, together? As I said before, it may be the craziest decision I made for myself, but it HAS been a helluva ride.

Wow, thank you so much for your in-depth explanation of your situation.

If I were to make a comment about your situation, might I say that it seems in fact idyllic to me :-)

Here's a new oxymoron I have learned today: together apart.

I am naturally dismayed that so many men feel the percentage of good women is so small. I happen to know of truly magnificent women of marriageable age, even when I look at them with my newly acquired 'masculine eyes'.

But that's neither here nor there because they are indeed rare in the general population of women. And sadly, they are struggling to find good men too.

As to your advice on marriage, I shall take them to heart. Thank you for that. As a member of the catholic church, I know that there is such a thing as a pre-Cana (pre-marriage) class. I have family members who teach these classes, but I must say, your advice is much more memorable than anything I have heard in a pre-Cana class!

So a hearty thank you for that!

As for failings, gosh, where do I start? I only started on this journey when I realised that I do have failings even if I cannot see them clearly sometimes :-)

If I were to make a comment about your situation, might I say that it seems in fact idyllic to me :-)

Oh Gawd, no. I'm a right sorry asshole sometimes, and my wife can be one too. Idyllic implies ideal, and our marriage is not ideal, nor do we want it to be. I'm steel, and she is flint, and we spark when we touch. If I could not have that spark, we never would have married.

I am naturally dismayed that so many men feel the percentage of good women is so small. I happen to know of truly magnificent women of marriageable age, even when I look at them with my newly acquired 'masculine eyes'.

But that's neither here nor there because they are indeed rare in the general population of women. And sadly, they are struggling to find good men too.

Blame the new wave of feminism. Men like myself, but single, are more or less invisible to the vast majority of women; BeijaFlor wrote an excellent blogpost at his place regarding invisible men. The lone female who decided to challenge that notion couldn't string a sentence together to convict Charles Manson... and she never did get the main point about invisibility. She even said something to the effect of "Women aren't going to go looking for you."

"...my granddaughter will never find a Good Decent Hardworking man..."

I'm quite sure that you're wrong about that -- there are more of them than it appears; they (like we were at that age) just don't go around crowing about it to get attention. They likely just dig in, put forth the effort, and get the job done.

Unfortunately, today's society and culture doesn't value those characteristics anymore and seems to either ignore them or take them for granted; the men who exhibit such positive characteristics and qualities are typically valued ONLY when they are not around anymore (I found that out during my Navy career).

The chances are good that your granddaughter could likely find a "good, decent, hardworking man" -- but sadly, if he is smart, he won't trust her, because feminism has corrupted women today to the point where they are typically hypocritical, dishonest, honorless, and untrustworthy.

She could tell him that she's 'not like that' until she's blue in the face, but how is he to really know?Our prisons have plenty of inmates who believed a woman who said that same line. The fact is (pay attention here, spacetraveller), it doesn’t matter if ‘not all women are like that’ – too many of them ARE, and (as so many divorced and falsely imprisoned men have found out) women can swear falsely on a stack of Bibles, lie with the face of an angel, and wrap themselves up in a blanket of righteousness while they even further lie about their lying.And even those who are ‘not like that’ at the present time can become ‘like that’ at an instant in the future.

For men, the price of getting involved with Modern Womyn is too high, too expensive, and too ruinous to justify the risk of false accusations, incurable STDs/STIs, a hellish marriage, or lifelong extortionate alimony.

For men, the only way to protect themselves against such injustice and the system which supports it is to simply shun women altogether and Go Their Own Way.

MGTOW is not about hate -- it's simple self-preservation.

But women seem to refuse to understand that they cannot hate us men into loving them.

"For men, the price of getting involved with Modern Womyn is too high, too expensive, and too ruinous to justify the risk of false accusations, incurable STDs/STIs, a hellish marriage, or lifelong extortionate alimony."

If this is your view of modern women, I totally agree - stay away from them. If I had a similar view of men, I would have signed up for WGTOW years ago. Permanently.

"And even those who are ‘not like that’ at the present time can become ‘like that’ at an instant in the future."

I have to disagree with this statement.I said before under 'Dissidents of the sphere' that a woman who is supposedly 'nice' before, and then 'suddenly' changes, was never 'nice' in the first place. She was just very clever at concealing her true nature.Women are complex creatures. I should know :-)Even as a woman, I find it hard distinguishing 'nice' women from the 'not so nice' sometimes. I find it so much easier to read men.

So, if I as a woman can have trouble reading one of my own, how much more a man, who through no fault of his, is clueless as to the inner workings of the mind of a woman.

It is not easy. I grant you that. But it can be done. If a man can be bothered to sift out the wheat from the chaff.

I hear ya.I also know that despite all the corruption of feminism, there are people, (men AND women) who are determined to not let what is afterall just an external factor ruin their short time here on God's great Earth.

"I'm quite sure that you're wrong about that -- there are more of them than it appears; they (like we were at that age) just don't go around crowing about it to get attention. They likely just dig in, put forth the effort, and get the job done."

Allow me to rephrase... She won't find such a man, because as you say, they're dropping out of the game. And to reassure Lady Spacetraveler, so are the good women.

My whole point was, and is, that the one thing all this 'Sexual Revolution' and Gender War has done, is to burn the bridges between the decent caring human beings of both genders. Women are now supposed to sleep willingly with anyone they date, or face the ignore button on cell phones. Men are supposed to be sensitive and emotional, then wait patiently while they're screwed over by the divorce courts. Of the two, I'd rather be female, if I were a 22 year old in today's world. At least females haven't invested their lives in a serious relationship before finding out the whole process was a lie.

Let's face it, there have always been Pick-Up Artists, we called them Men About Town, or more crudely, Studs. There always be such men, and I don't condemn their choice to live such a lifestyle, no more than I would condemn any other sexual proclivity, excepting minors. There have always been Prick Teases, the females that use men for social contacts, appearing to promise much, but deliver nothing at all. In fact, you would be hard pressed to define for me, any NEW sexual roles in today's 'market place'. The only difference now is that men are at the bottom of the divorce dump instead of women, and hatred seems to have replaced a wary truce.

And this is why my wife will talk to our granddaughter when she is a bit older, because no matter what I say, I'm still Grandpa, and I'm ok with that. There are certain things I will not be able to discuss with her, but I do so very much hope she will be willing to listen to her Grandma. With all the screwed up messages being sent by the mass media and women allowing themselves to be defined by magazines and celebrity, I do not know what the future holds for any of my grandchildren. We've already discussed the options open to my grandsons, and both of my sons are of the same mind as myself. As I said, I weep for them all.

"I said before under 'Dissidents of the sphere' that a woman who is supposedly 'nice' before, and then 'suddenly' changes, was never 'nice' in the first place. She was just very clever at concealing her true nature."

Just so. And herein lies the crux of the matter. Almost to a man, all the things I have read about MGTOW is that they are essentially truthful honest human beings, ESPECIALLY when dealing with love. I literally laugh out loud when someone refers to them as eternal boy-men, when I knew dozens if not hundreds of women in the 1970s and 1980s who would have committed crimes to meet men like that. When the betrayal of everything they have invested into a marriage or long term relationship occurs, the devastation is nigh complete. Everything THEY have been taught, including equality, has become part and parcel of the concealment/deception you point out.

Sure, a few men have seen the damage done, and vowed never to let anyone do that to them, without any actual harm being experienced first hand, but that's just good observation skills and a bit of brains. Good for them. I class myself as closer to this trope than to a burnt divorced gentleman, because I recognize that I was far far luckier than I ever deserved to be, in finding a woman who matches me well. In truth, I think that only an incurable optimist, or a man willing to lie about his own opinions, are likely to expose themselves to such damage as today's 'market place'.

Thank you sooooo much for making the effort to appease me and other women.Men are never more handsome than when they show favour to the ladies :-)

I had a thought reading yours and Ping Jockey's comments again.

This is what I see and foresee. It is quite possible that many others have already alluded to this.

MGTOW have left the village. A few red pill women are going after them. Some MGTOW will look back and see these women. Some will be pleased to see these women and take them on. The others will keep walking.

The MGTOW and their newfound female friends will form another village far away from the original village.

They will have new rules. No more divorce courts, misandry or misogyny.In fact, these new couples only come together because of their mutual rejection of these old rules.

They will be watching from a safe distance when the old village goes up in smoke years down the line...

Unfortunately the MGTOW movement seems to have been inspired by a couple of guys that were severely burned by bad people and it has sort of caught fire among a small group of disenchanted malcontents.

Unfortunately Im willing to bet that the vast majority of the guys on those forums are disgruntled virgins with young supple minds and a particular bone to pick and a need to scapegoat others for their problems (read: inability to cope with their own social problems). They find things like PUA and MGTOW and latch on for dear life. Indoctrination at its finest.

They're barking up a tree though, most men will not join their cause, and the ones who do, including me...can see what a farce it all is after a very short time.

I joined MGTOW and was banned for bringing up the basic human need for intimacy and love, and how we are to go about getting these needs met by swearing off women. Apparently such a topic is very touchy over there, I guess I hit a nerve.

The fact is, Men AND Women throughout the world have been burned by the opposite sex for thousands of years, and it's not going to stop any time soon, no matter how many idealogical clubs you join or internet forum posts you vent.

It's a fact of life that there are women out there who bang guys in club bathrooms, but I don't know very many and the ones that I do know suffer from their own intimacy and love problems and as a result engage in this kind of self-destructive behavior.

Healthy relationships are enitrely possible, but you have to get to the root of your own problems and start being healthy first which is something most MGTOW guys and other cult members refuse to even dip their toe in. They'd rather blame something else for their problems, even going so far as to brushstroke half the human population as whores, cheaters, liars, thieves, and sperm buckets.

Sure there are those types. There are also women who have been deeply affected by serial killers, rapists, and robbers which is LARGELY a male phenomenon.

One thing I do agree with is the level of modern day misandry in our society and how bad militant feminism has made it for most people to connect with each other, but I'm not going to throw poo at the women of the world I put in a pigeon hole to make myself feel better about it.

There are billions of people in the world that are truly looking for deep commitment and love in a trusting relationship and its your job as a MAN to think for yourself and wade through the bullshit society spews at you and find creative ways to FIND THOSE PEOPLE.

Joining a cult will not fill the hole you have in your soul that longs for love and companionship, and becoming what deep down you hate, which is men that treat women like garbage, showcases the fact that you do have a soft spot for them after all and is not the answer to your problems.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that in order to land hot babes with great personalities you have to become a great guy and look your best. It's also unfortunate that advertising and porn has given men an entitlement complex just as much as women have...in order to land a 10 you gotta be a ten yourself, that's just the way it goes. You can wake up and start becoming what you want to be and accepting the level of interest you get from the opposite sex and be a MAN and do what it takes to get what you want...or again, you can play your little hateful games and brushstroke the opposite gender any way you please.

In a sick way you are attempting to get what you want from women by 'choosing' to leave them behind but all healthy and sane people can see your true motivations.

HINT: It's not going to work. You will only end up alone and bitter, with the gaping hole growing more gnawing as time goes on.

Thank you for your encouraging comment!It is encouraging for me because you mention that you were once a MGHOW but you don't have those ideologies anymore. At least I think that's what you are saying.

Yes I agree with you that the MGTOW are a bit over the top. I do understand their plight, because I have seen (almost) first hand how terrible things can get between men and women. And I for one am willing to entertain their 'hate' even on this blog as long as it results in some sort of positive outcome for all, especially them. Everyone needs a healing time, and a healing 'how'. if the time is now, and the 'how' is ranting on MGTOW forums, then so be it. My personal gripe is that for some of them, it seems to be something they are hellbent on making permanent.That would be sad.But everyone has a right to make their own decisions.

And what's more, it's a self-regulating problem. If they turn their backs on women forever, women (even good ones) will be unable to engage with them. Yes, everyone has a basic need for love, intimacy. If they deny themselves that, well, it's unfortunate.

So every individual has to find his or her own solution to their own problems. Some will choose the easy route which leads to hell, some will choose the hard route which leads to paradise.Each to his own.

I am happy for you that you seem to have found a way that works for you. I hope you find (if not already), true happiness in your life. With someone who deserves you and that you deserve.Thank you for commenting here.

I have learned so much since this post was written that I can only agree with you on all of your points.We allowed some serious rot to get into society thus it is not exactly surprisng that we are suffering the effects now.

"Trying to "convince" men to get into a risky and bad business deal is wasting your breath..."

Well, I agree here too.Which is why I don't do this anymore :-)

But I still like to talk about the SMP.Hopefully, others will talk with me.But I am capable of talking to a blank wall. It's my special talent of womanhood.

Joking aside, I think some men had a really bad deal in the two generations or so above mine.And the younger ones are not faring much better.But you have to understand that at least two generations of women have also been grossly misled. So no-one knows how to behave anymore.It will take a while to clean up this mess, I agree.But the mess is not to be left untouched forever.That would be a real shame :-(

So society has to (one woman and one man at a time) make marriage better for men...Which in turn makes it better for women ultimately...

I think The Manosphere is a godsend in this regard.There is nothing like a decisive man in getting a woman to become a woman again.Note that I said nothing about 'angry'.I think angry men just produce angry women, or at least women who get turned off men.

Thankfully, most of The Manosphere is of the former category.

This is why I am still here...listening and learning.And there are scores of other women doing the same.

"Sex alone WOULD be reason enough to get married if all things were equal, but all things are NOT equal, so sex is no longer enough"

Yes, in this current clime, a lot of unmarried men (and women of course) are getting 'sex'.But how many of them could say they are getting 'sexual fulfilment'?

Sex is sex.Sexual fulfilment is different.

So I definitely agree with you that sex is not enough of a motivation to get married, all things NOT being equal in today's SMP/MMP.That something extra you allude to could include 'sexual fulfilment' which to many is impossible to achieve outside of marriage, save a special, precious few.

The Navy Corpsman in later posts than this makes mention of his own preference for 'not a thousand women but one woman with whom I could be with in a thousand different ways'.I think that's the closest anyone has come to describing 'sexual fulfilment' to me.

Why am I not surpised to learn that he is married?

I am sure he won't say his marriage is problem-free.But obviously here is at least one man for whom the institution of marriage has not been a total disaster.

If one man can achieve this, (and clearly one woman also has), why can't others?It takes work, of course, but whoever is afraid of work can pass...

We are all afraid of marriage, Anonymous.Even women, for whom marriage is purported to be paradise, are afraid. Beacuse we know it simply isn't (a paradise).But fear is good. Because it tells me that I have enough respect for something.But that fear becomes counterproductive if it prevents me from living a life.

The way I've seen it, I've been somewhat of an MGTOW/Zeta male my whole life without even hearing about it. I am in a loving relationship which I wouldn't trade for anything. However me and her both go our own way as a unit because we both agree that society blows. We both left the village (U.S) and left to her EU home country. Hell, the fact that we have an age gap, me being younger, makes it so we are different from what society expects. Funny how they have a label for guys like me (Anililagnia) for liking older women and yet have nothing to say for women my own age who prefer older men..but I digress. MGTOW doesn't seem to be a movement, but more of a lifestyle choice. I don't really see anything wrong with it in general. Women do the same thing and yet again, its really only the men who get heat for it. I can understand why some of them avoid women. The laws are indeed highly stacked against us men. From what I've seen, MGTOW's simply go and find more feminine women who aren't afraid to be women and also aren't afraid to let men be men. That is what is causing the ghosting MGTOWs, which are indeed the ones who avoid women, to grow in numbers. Even in Japan as they eat up western garbage and its feminism like candy, they now have their own MGTOW movement known as the "grass eating boys." I think its extremely cool how you as a woman actually take the time to understand what MGTOW is about rather than dismiss them as losers and pathetic as most western women do with hate in their voices.

As long as they outnumber women like yourself, I'm sorry to say that you will see more men leave the village in increasing numbers.

I am pleased to see that you have found a solution that works for you.Well done!

I think there are 3 categories of women when it comes to the whole MGTOW thing.

There are the ardent feminists that are 'ruining' the village.There are also women who wish to leave the village but have certain ties to the village and allegiances they can't or won't break.And there is a third kind who have no links with the village anymore either because they never really had any links in the first place or they successfully broke off those links and are quite happy to leave the village if that is a better alternative for them than remaining in the village.

So there might be something for evryone, a buffet to cater for all tastes, so to speak.

Category 1 is prevalent, maybe, but I think this is a dynamic thing.Category 2 is gaining in popularity and I think category 3 will perhaps always be rare, but even so will see an increase in its size in the coming years.

I think that in next years, older MGTOW men will have to help younger men with their awakening (taking the red pill) because when I read Esther Vilar - The Manipulated Man part of me died, "nice guy" that wanted to have a family, just lying with his wife in a hammock, teach his son how to play soccer and fix things around the house... after that I couldn't look at women in any positive way...That's why MGTOW is logical decision.

I am sorry to hear you were 'winded' by Ms Vilar's book. I haven't read it, and I thank you for mentioning it, because I am sure it should be on my reading list.But whatever it contains, it won't shock me of course.The cat is well and truly out of the bag, so to speak.Do whatever is right for YOU.Better to avoid a woman than marry her and then punish her for being a woman.Which I am sure some men might consider doing.

Alternatively, marry who you perceive to be a good woman, avoid the rest.But you would have to be very discerning, something a man in a relationship is definitely at a disadvantage of.But it can be done, if you so desire.

Thanks for providing us all with a copy of this book.I read it over the weekend.Interesting read.And, as predicted, none of it surprised me.If you had given me this book even 2 years ago, I would have been shocked, yes.But not anymore.

Like Esther Vilar, I am a woman.And I know what women are capable of, good and bad.

But I feel Ms Vilar misses an important point:The manipulation of Man is not actually a bad thing if a woman, or all women actually do love men and care about them.Let me explain: If a woman 'manipulates' a man into marrying her wishing to look after him, provide him with children and make a home for him, where's the fault in that?However, if she manipulates him, with dollar signs in her eyes, and not a care in the world for the man behind the money, then yes, she is a true manipulator.

I agree with Ms Vilar that so many women have ruined the chivalrous nature of men by their crass actions over the last 40 years or so...So, yes, what Ms Vilar is saying might be summed up by The Manosphere that 'the social contract has been broken'. This I agree with.

The problem is that the social contract broke before you and I were even born (I assume you are in your 20's or 30s). So you as a man are afraid of marriage. And I as a woman will therefore be viewed with suspicion by you. Epic fail on all counts!

Whilst I agree with Esther Vilar on most of her points, I disagree with her sentiment that all women are prostitutes of sorts.

Yes in general it is a man who seeks sex and it is a woman who provides him with the means to have sex, and he usually has to provide her with some sort of compensation for her trouble.The above scenario only applies in the context of non-marital sex, to my mind.

In marriage (and if you have been reading this blog you will know that that is the only context where I believe sex should be taking place), a woman may be 'selling' herself for the material gains her husband may provide, but given that she is also giving something back - children (pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous for a woman, even in these days of medical advancement - women still lose their lives as a result of pregnancy), financial back up for those who continue to work, beauty (not jut her own but the environment in which she and her family reside - women like to make their surroundings beautiful whereas in general, a man is content with 'minimalism') and feminine love, (which men really cannot get from other men unless they are gay - and even so it is not 'feminine' love they will get)it is not a simple case of 'prostitution'. So yes, prostitution of sorts occurs wherever there is sex without the union of marriage. But I will never believe that sex within marriagecan be viewed asprostituion - for it isn't a simple matter of 'man gets sex, woman gets money' in this context.And I shall never change my mind on that.

Yes I know that many men did not get a good deal when it came to marriage.For that matter, many women did not either, through no fault of theirs.

Having read Vilar's book, I don't change my opinion that individual men and women have to find their own way. I know what women are capable of, good or bad, and now thanks to The Manosphere I also know what men are capable of, good or bad.But it doesn't stop me from seeing that some men are good amidst the sea of the bad. And that some women are good amidst the sea of the bad.All in recognition that no-one is perfect.

Vilar is right: feminism was bad thing, and bad women exploited a potentially good cause and turned it into something poisonous for both men and women.

I was newer afraid of marriage (I'm 24) because I newer seriously thought about it. I'm no genius but I do have a pair of eyes to see what's going on around me. As I can see married men are perfect slaves for women and government/employer. Once they're married they will forget about their own life and put family in front of their life. For what? I've never see a happily married men. I think it's something like Big Foot that someone thinks they saw it...

As for pregnancy I don't know why is it that only in our species females are making a big deal out of something natural, they were designed in first place..? Modern women can't stop talking how dangerous childbirth is to a woman. The risk is realy realy low. I would have listened to a women that gave birth to a 8 or more children about childbirth.

It's funny how you describe "feminine beauty"... to me it's mostly just junk. piles of junk. More than 80% of stores in shopping malls are for women and it's all junk (shoes, clothes,cosmetics... if women weren't trying to look like clowns with all that makeup there would be no hungry children because of all that money wasted...) and all it serves to is to manipulate men, as you said it:

"The manipulation of Man is not actually a bad thing if a woman, or all women actually do love men and care about them."

One thing that I do agree with you is that you have to look every individual separately and "judge" him by his actions and not words (this goes for men and women but mostly to women because what they say is mostly the opposite of what they do...)

I do believe that sex should be used to deepen the intimacy between girlfriend/boyfriend, husband/wife... from what I've learned in all those taoist and other books that's the goal for me. I can't speak for other men but for me the moment I felt most empty inside was when I was with a hooker for an hour and all that time I was hearing this voice inside: what am I doing? I don't even know her name... That's the moment I stopped wanting only sex...

"As for pregnancy I don't know why is it that only in our species females are making a big deal out of something natural, they were designed in first place..?"

We female humans are the only ones that moan about childbirth because we are the only ones that can speak :-)

"It's funny how you describe "feminine beauty"... to me it's mostly just junk. piles of junk. More than 80% of stores in shopping malls are for women and it's all junk (shoes, clothes,cosmetics..."

Metak, you weren't to know this about me, but you are preaching to the choir here.As a woman who has never worn make-up (except for a 5-minute period where a very lovely and well-meaning woman - God rest her soul - made me up with good intentions (she believed I was single precisely because I never wore make-up!!!). I was itching to take off the make-up because I really felt I looked like a clown (although she interestingly enough thought I looked better, but she would, wouldn't she, LOL).I am one of very few women for whom make-up is actually a bit of a disaster - I think I do look better without.But I recognise that make-up and other adornments women use are a good thing generally, and I would never say to a woman to go without. Yes I agree with you that there are certain women (especially older women) who overdo it and end up looking horrible. And I also think some women spend far too much on make-up, yes. But hey, each to his own, or her own in this case.

"I can't speak for other men but for me the moment I felt most empty inside was when I was with a hooker for an hour and all that time I was hearing this voice inside: what am I doing?"

Incredibly frank, this. I applaud you for sharing.

Whilst I cannot really comment much on the factors that led to your ending up in this situation (because I don't share your biology), I am happy for you that you came to this realisation that sex is good, but perhaps it is better in the right context.

At 24, you are most likely around the peak of your sexuality, so I sympathise that you do not have a regular sexual partner (you don't mention if you have a gf now).

Whilst I am all for marriage, I however also wouldn't advise myself or anyone to go into a marriage only for the sex.

Yes life is hard, isn't it?I wish you the best of luck.If you were my little brother I would do anything it takes to ensure you get the right girl (or at least avoid the bad girls). Although women usually are not necessarily the best at finding great girls for their men-folk (brothers, uncles, even fathers), we can usually smell out the bad ones and advise accordingly.

What I meant about pregnancy was that women are experts in making men feel like it's all our fault, like we decided that women will have womb and give birth...

No, I don't have girlfriend and this is completely my fault because I was always loner type, newer really tried to change that.

No, no... this is nowhere near the peak... I've spent a lot of time learning about taoism (sexual energy...) and I've managed to control it. That day with hooker was my test to see how I'm doing... Who would've thought that conscience or whatever it was to be the problem...

No, life is not hard if you don't make it hard.The same goes for erection. :-) jokeI love just being alive... walking and enjoying a fresh air, silence in the woods... I don't know about you but to me that's very close to paradise.

One more thing... since you support the idea of marriage, and for the sake of argument let us assume that intentions from both sides are positive, why the need for having threesome or foursome (husband,wife,government,church) where in most cases at least in western world (I'm from Slovenia) men get screwed by three times...? Are women really that insecure, greedy, need external validation, what??? I don't get it (circus aka wedding). Why can't it be enough to simply ask after some time of knowing each other: look I've known you for (xx time) and I can see in you qualities that I want in wife/husband. You ask him/her if he/she wants the same and it's done! :-) why waste additional precious time with all that crap (ceremony, legal issues...) when you could be happy?

I've only met one woman in my life who was an unmarried single parent who hadn't been living with a man before hand. This would suggest to me that women are willing to live, build a life, and have children without marriage, government. or church oversight. Perhaps it's the men who need the ceromony in order for it to feel "real"?

@ST and @Metak I hope it's all right if I join the delightful conversation you two have been having! :)

why the need for having threesome or foursome (husband,wife,government,church)

I'm not crazy about the need to get a government license, either, and while it's true that having marriage records protects us from bigamists, that's more of a secondary benefit than a primary one. But being very religious, I would like to contract my marriage in the form required by the Catholic Church. And it's not just because I am a woman. There are many men who are also religious and who have the same desire. Since your beliefs are different, you will see this differently.

(Inserted for ST's amusement . . . It is actually the husband and wife who are the ministers of the sacrament of matrimony, which means they can get married without a priest! But inasmuch as marriage is considered a state of life in the Church, with rights and duties as part of the Church, the Church requires that Catholics have liturgical weddings. To use Metak's terminology, a Catholic marriage already is, by definition, a "threesome"!)

But how is this suddenly women's fault? The involvement of the government and the Church is arguably rooted in something more than a woman's insecurity, greed or need for validation!

More trivia for ST . . . If I remember correctly, it was the Council of Trent which made it impossible to elope properly. Before this, couples could just ask a priest to marry them without much fuss. But some powerful parents were upset at the kind of matches their children were making and wanted a way to hinder them. So now we have banns and things.

As unfortunate as that is to someone like me who would love to elope and get it over with, this law reflects the reality that marriage does not exist just for the pleasure of two people, but for the strengthening of families.

Thanks for joining in!This kid Metak, he's a hard nut to crack, isn't he?I need the help of you two to take him on!;-)

Just teasing you, Metak...we like you!

"p.s.- If good guys finish last what happens to funny guys? :-)" I happen to be a sucker for funny guys. With me, they finish first. But please don't tell anyone...

You know, I agree with Bellita. I used to dream abôut the whole big white wedding thing, but I recognise now that it's a tad immature in a way. To add to that, I see the likes of Kim K and Jordan aka Katie Price with their flamboyant weddings...and 2 years down the line (well, 72 days in the case of Kim K), it's all over...and I feel like someone stepped all over my dream and ruined it for me. The sanctity of marriage is no longer there.So these days, eloping seems more and more attractive to me. And it's cheaper. But, I know my family would never forgive me if I ever did that so there would have to be some sort of compromise...

Was it really the Council of Trent, Bell?Just across the border from Scotland is Gretna Green...I am sure you know of it - where people go to elope...I have been there (but I was NOT there to elope LOL - just passed by on a bike tour) and at the time I remember thinking, 'I'll never get married here.'Well...now I'm not so sure!

Metak, I agree with you that the State need not be involved in a marriage (except to weed out bigamists as Bellita states). But I would very much value the Church's input in my marriage. I won't feel married unless it is before God. And if the Church won't marry eloped couples, I guess I won't be eloping, then :-(

To avoid the 'three-somes' and the 'four-somes' as you call them (again, very funny, I have to say - I never thought of it like this!), some people choose to 'live together'...Well, I think that creates more problems than it solves, especially for the woman. But some women don't know this until it is too late. And...I heard that legally, it does not protect the assets of either party anyway. Even if there are no children, in the event of a split, a man can still lose his assets same as in a divorce.So cohabitation is a 'lose-lose' situation as far as I can see, and helps no-one.

Marriage was 'invented' by women, for women, yes.Because men don't need marriage - women do. A man would be happy to be alone or sowing his wild oats forever.But that's no good for women (who need security). Nor society.And in a roundabout way, not for men either, in the long run. But they need a long period of maturity to come to this conclusion. And even so, they need convincing that marriage is a good deal for them.So far, modern women are not doing a good job of convincing modern men.

Yes we have failed.Big time!

And what we need to do is get up and start the recovery process.Collectively.

Considering that we have to be aware that for some men, the damage is permanent...it seems a hard task.

That was just my experience with women in general (I guess I should be asking older women about marriage since I'm wasting my time with most of women my age... I can newer get honest answer...) and the religious ones feel that's a sin or feel ashamed or something... (mothers side of family takes care of religious fanatics... :-) )

"My terminology" is just poor attempt to illustrate my point...

I had one girl in mind when I wrote that... I still can't forget what she told me when I asked her why is she still with her boyfriend even though he treats her badly? She said she's afraid to be alone and it's better to be in a relationship that sucks then alone. I know this is just one example but later I found out that it's quite common.

But then again, what do I know about relationships in the first place. I'm only a man, although strange one indeed, I walk my own path.

"So far, modern women are not doing a good job of convincing modern men.

Yes we have failed.Big time!"

I can't disagree with you on that.

My views on life are so far away from what's considered "normal" in today's world.

"Considering that we have to be aware that for some men, the damage is permanent...it seems a hard task."

I fit into this category. Let me prove it to you... When I go for a walk and see young mother playing with her son and talking to him in loving way I can't help myself but to want a mother like that for my child.

I know you addressed your last comment to Bellita, but if I may chip in...

"I had one girl in mind when I wrote that... I still can't forget what she told me when I asked her why is she still with her boyfriend even though he treats her badly? She said she's afraid to be alone and it's better to be in a relationship that sucks then alone. I know this is just one example but later I found out that it's quite common."

Game apologists ould say 'Dread works'. And that women are just attracted to 'bad boys'.Fair enough. That's often true. Especially of younger, immature women, who tragically are at the peak of their atractiveness to men!

But I think there are other explanations that are often overlooked in cases like this:

Women really invest a lot of emotion in men they are involved with. That's just how we are. So if this girl has been with this man for a while, she doesn't want to start all over again with someone else. To me, that's understandable. Men find it so much easier to walk away ('There will always be another woman' is something men can think, but it's hard for a woman to think like this).

She might also be very young and vulnerable. An older woman might find it easier to leave a bad relationship.

She might just be hoping and hoping that 'he will come round', i.e. engaging her rationalisation hamster. Whilst this could destroy her, it is what makes a woman a woman. If every woman walked out the minute a man showed bad behaviour, there would be zero relationships. There is a reason relationships are a woman's domain. Men are just not designed to be as 'soft-hearted' as women can be. This is why I think women who can see men as 'lovable rogues' are in many ways better women than those who can't. Because they are not bitter, for a start. But it's not easy, for sure.

However...if he is abusive or unfaithful...then perhaps she would do better to cut her losses and find a better man...

But...I don't know about Slovenia, but it may be that somehow she is 'tainted' by having been with this man, and all other men might shun her? If this is the case, it might well be another reason she stays with him...because she is aware that no-one else would want her...I don't know...

At some point, all women find their boundary, their threshold, their limit. For some women, it is very low, and they'll leave if a man so much as looks at them in the wrong way. Other women (like the 'Masculine woman' we have previously discussed on this blog) will stay and do their best to keep it going, especially in a marriage.But I guess it is up to every woman to find this limit herself.In the same way that a young man will need to learn how to navigate his way around women, knowing that he has probably been misinformed all his life about women. We are all on a learning curve.

Metak, navigating relationships in the current smp/mmp is a little nuts. More than a few times I still wonder if I should just be woman going her own way. lol. The laws and financial aspects can be formidable concerns.

Keep in mind that though we are women who are pro marriage and family, we can see all too clearly why men would choose to go their own way.

"When I go for a walk and see young mother playing with her son and talking to him in loving way I can't help myself but to want a mother like that for my child."

This is sweet, Metak!I don't think you would find it hard to meet a woman who would be a good mother.Most women are natural potential mothers anyway. At least to infants and small children.It's one thing that hasn't been lost among women, despite the ills of feminism. I personally think that what separates good mothers from bad ones is the type of mothering that happens later in the child's life...

In any case, finding a good mother for your child is not the problem. The problem is finding a good wife for you.I have noticed that some women make their kids a priority over their husband way beyond the time-frame when this is necessary or appropriate, ie. when the child is a baby/toddler and needs the mother a lot. This type of 'extreme mothering' actually breaks up marriages. Like that woman on the Time Magazine cover who is breastfeeding a child who is virtually an adult (I exaggerate, but you get the picture - it's not so much that I disagree with her for doing what she feesl is best for her child - it's just the whole idea that a private thing is made so public, and the sense one gets that her children's status in the family is elevated over everyone else, including Dad).

Unfortunately you can't really screen for that until the woman is a mother lol...I am not sure if asking questions would help either...In this regard, women don't have a similar problem. I don't know ANY man who would see his kids as higher priority over their mother, certainly if they are still together. But some women unfortunately do this...

I know that for a women her child is a priority (at least most of them) and that's fine with me, or better I think it's for the best that way as long as the wife is not completely ignoring her husband and throwing him some breadcrumbs once in a while.

@ST And if the Church won't marry eloped couples, I guess I won't be eloping, then

To get really technical on you now . . . The pastoral direction is for priests to insist on pre-marital counseling for a couple that wants to be married. But if an individual priest, using his own discretion, is willing to marry a couple without making them jump through the pastoral hoops, then they have as good as eloped!

Good luck finding that priest, though . . . Hahahaha!

Oh, that reminds me . . . I once read the story of an old priest who said that he was willing to waive pre-marital counselling for any couple that gave him a certain answer when he would ask them, "Why do you want to marry this specific person?" And that answer was: "Because he/she is the best person to help me into Heaven." But I don't know whether, in all his years of ministry, he ever came across a couple like that.

@Metak She said she's afraid to be alone and it's better to be in a relationship that sucks then alone. I know this is just one example but later I found out that it's quite common.

What is sad is that there are men like that, too. This is why "There Will Always Be Another Woman" has become such a mantra of the Manosphere. Men are telling other men not to stay with a poor quality woman just out of fear that they will never be able to find anyone else.

At first glance I was really liking this one!Especially as my own answer to this would have been something lame along the lines of 'why not him, Padre?' which is infintely worse...

:-)

But then I thought, 'this priest wants people to use others as a 'fast track' to salvation?'Hm...sounds a bit fishy to me...

Hey, is this 'priest Game' of sorts?As you know I now see Game in everything :P

Is this his 'fitness test' that every eloping couple is bound to fail so he doesn't have to justiy to the Pope that he married couples without the proper guidelines???

Hahaha...Just playing devil's advocate, I suppose :-)

Along these lines, a girl turned up frantic at the sacristy of my parish one day. She was quite young, I think early 20s or late teens, and had just found out that morning she was pregnant...and the first thing she thought of was to come see the priest to arrange a marriage, without even speaking to her bf first!The priest of course said no, but wanted to have a chat with her and bf later...Poor girl, it was quite distressing to see her so upset, especially as her English wasn't so great either (she was Polish I believe).

Don't know if they got married in the end...but I hope whatever happened, everything turned out alright for them, including baby...

"I think he wanted them to understand that for husbands and wives, marriage is the track to salvation."

Ah, of course! Marriage is one of the seven sacraments!

Would you Adam and Eve it, Bellita? I had forgotten this when I posted my last comment.Bugger, I forgot that marriage was a sacrament, and a sacrament is supposed to be a path to salvation.

I need to brush up on my catechism, Bell.Is it possible to regress as one gets older?I knew all of this by heart when I was blooming 7 years old!

Thanks for your prayers about the girl at the parish. The last I heard she was given the standard 'come back in 6 months' or in her case 'come back after the baby is born' spiel.I suspect she simply went 'underground' and hotfooted it to another parish to try her luck there. She was determined to get married before the baby was born, it seemed to me.I do hope she got her way :-) Somehow she seemed like a nice girl...

You know, some friends of mine were just discussing a related pastoral policy with regards to marriage. (Coincidentally, they're the friends I mentioned in the other thread with the ballerina daughter!)

Did you know that a couple that conceives a child out of wedlock is not allowed to marry in the Church until that child is a year old? I was aghast when I learned about that rule and wondered whether it was just a pastoral directive for the Church in the United States (a reaction to shotgun weddings, perhaps?) . . . But after my friends explained that the real concern is that people don't get a free pass out of sin just because they marry "in time," I realized that this must apply to the universal Church. It's really a sensible position to take. You don't make everything okay just by getting married.

Having said that . . . I know one woman who hid her pregnancy from the priest all throughout pre-marital counselling. He must have noticed how much bigger she was when the wedding day finally arrived, but decided not to say anything. Don't ask, don't tell . . . Not that I condone it.

"Did you know that a couple that conceives a child out of wedlock is not allowed to marry in the Church until that child is a year old?"

Yes, I knew that the couple could only marry some time after the baby was born, but I didn't know it was specifically a year.

Yes on principle it seems a good idea to me, but for certain couples it might be better to be married sooner rather than later...I think the Darwins covered this in their blog recently, and a guest post by a fellow blogger demonstrates why marrying sooner is better than marrying later.But The Church is always right, of course. I am not arguing its policies...lol.

Personally, I would wish to avoid a 'messy' state of affairs. But people are people and the best laid plans...

Hey Bell, did you notice that Metak has absented himself from this conversation as it slowly morphs into a marathon discussion on the logistics of marriage?:-)

Time and time again we all slip into gender-defined roles, don't we?Can't make this stuff up!

I've read the comments and when it comes to anything close to Church or religion I don't go there. Since I can remember I ran away from Church and Catholic religion... must be that I'm Antichrist? :-)

I just took some time to meditate on what I've learned in last few years... and it was sooooo worth it! :-)

I had to identify and recognize "bad, not useful to me" definitions and beliefs that I still had about women, marriage, family and other people in general. I didn't noticed them consciously but I guess subconsciously I thought they were somehow useful to me...???Anyway I realized they want to go from me but I don't let them and at the same time I was pushing and keeping away things that I thought I wasn't worthy of... things like love.At that moment I just let go off those negative beliefs because they wanted to go in the first place but I didn't let them so we were both unhappy together so to say. :-) After that I also stopped pushing good things away from me and it felt soooooo gooooodddd. I was always full off energy but this was like someone was pouring gasoline on fire inside me...

I newer "really believed" at what Esther Vilar was writing and I won't waste time explaining why, but I'm glad I wrote that first comment the way I did. :-)

p.s. - The scene I was describing it my first comment is stuck in my memory for some time and it's so vivid, real... When my mind is set on something it cannot be stopped. :-) So I guess there is some kind of family for me down the line...

Your response to religion doesn't surprise me at all lol. I find a lot of men share your views on religion.So with this in mind, I think you are being punished for something you did...Let me explain:You ran from the Church and all things to do with religion...and somehow you ended up on a blog where 2 über-Catholic queens called Bellita and Spacetraveller are talking religion non-stop for like hours on end...You MUST have done something wrong...this is your punishment, Metak...Now...confession time: what DID you do?:-)

Hahaha...Hey Metak, you should check out Danny's (Danny from 504) latest post. He describes how a man can use humour to get a girl.You are probably the right age-group that Danny teaches. I think you will like him. He's good as a mentor for young men who are relationship-minded...

I think you will have no problems finding the right girl and having a nice family.

It sounds to me like you've got your Inner Game sorted out - Congratulations! Some men don't make it to where you have for another ten years on from your age...some women neither, come to think of it!And, with your sense of humour, I think any girl will be blessed to share a home with you :-)

@ST You ran from the Church and all things to do with religion...and somehow you ended up on a blog where 2 über-Catholic queens called Bellita and Spacetraveller are talking religion non-stop for like hours on end...

Poor Metak! No matter what he did in the past, he didn't deserve the double whammy of you and me, ST! Hahahaha!

Good for me that I ran when I had the chance... :-) It doesn't bother me that that you two are "2 über-Catholic queens called Bellita and Spacetraveller". Your God and I obviously don't get along. It's like listening my mother all over again... :-) My reply to my mother is still the same: If anything that I do bothers the God you worship he can tell me if he wants to, or he can wait till judgement day and send me to hell if he wants I don't care!! That has been my attitude for life and God newer told that I was doing something wrong. In fact because of it I became better person... I gained appreciation for life, nature,.. that I wasn't getting from Church or religion. I don't have to say that I always felt bad/negative energy when I was in Church.

"p.s.- women can think positively about Church and priests because they're after the boys!"

Guilty as charged. This is one of the reasons I was very much against the ordination of women in the Catholic Church.Didn't want to remove my only incentive for going to Mass.:-)

Now all I've got to do is start a campaign to encourage more young men tto join the priesthood, to start replacing the old dudes I have to tolerate every Sunday.Hey Metak, you game for this?Ah, you want a family. Oh well, nevermind...

Hm, I wonder if the other MGTOW chaps would be interested in a little proposition I have for them...let's see...how on Earth am I going to sell this to them.Oh I know! You get to live a life totally devoid of women...You get to preach to a whole bunch of people...But... the only drawback is, this ain't online...you have to stand up in front of these people every Sunday morning... Hm, I wonder if they'll take the bait...

"It's like listening my mother all over again... :-)"

Objection!We might be a tad older than you, Metak, but we're not THAT old! lol:-)

haha It had to be CATholic cat! :-) it's funny how it bothers me that I did it. I was a young boy just playing... didn't want to hurt the catholic cat... she was OK. :-) She cursed me a few times probably and that's why it still bothers me...

funny you mention "Now all I've got to do is start a campaign to encourage more young men tto join the priesthood, to start replacing the old dudes I have to tolerate every Sunday.Hey Metak, you game for this?"

This is not fair!!! :-) you're in this together with my mother! I think she newer forgave me that I decided not to become a priest as she wanted.

When a women is talking about priests and celibacy she has no idea what that means to a men. That is the definition of HELL! :-) Sure you can do it, but at what cost? I don't know how it's for women, but I sure know how it feels to be a men and what bothers me the most is all this energy that needs to be "cooled down" by woman. I can tell you right now that I would go crazy as a priest! :-)

If it's any consolation, both Bell and I considered becoming nuns at some point in our lives...I can't speak for Bell, but in my case I certainly wasn't coerced into it by anyone...

And yes, I do appreciate it must be much harder for a man to become a priest than it is for a woman to become a nun.

Funny thing is, when I realised I could never be a nun, I thought to myself: well if I have a son he will become a priest.But I realise now that of course he will have to make that decision for himself. I can't decide for him anymore than your mother can decide for you.

"seriously I should've thrown "my two balls" :-)at cat and I could have my peace now... :-)"

Hahahaha!This is so funny...You know, you should remember this sentiment, it might come in useful one day in relation to your future wife.Many men before you have expressed similar exasperation when it comes to women...Don't say I never warned ya :-)

"What changed your mind not to become a nun?"

Um...the thought of being locked up with a whole bunch of other women...with no chance of parole...

No, just kidding!

Honestly, I just didn't feel I would make a good nun in the end. Strange... it kinda coincided with the time I started to notice boys more...:-)

And I think God's OK with that. He has enough brides as it is...(At least that's what my rationalisation hamster says, and I am sticking with it :-)

While I was reading the news I saw this article about a women (I think it was Lolo Jones?) saying that it's hard for her to stay virgin and that she wants to "give it" to her husband...

So I was wondering if these women who actually are virgins when they marry, have any objections if a future husband has lost his "hymen"? :-)

Newer quite got the whole idea about virginity...yes, yes I'm a man and I won't get it... :-)

But that would be a pleasant surprise if your girlfriend told you she's a virgin and saving herself for husband. What I do notice on women with my "ManRadar" :-) is that you can clearly see if a women had/has slept with a lot of men. My conclusion: more sexual partners she had - less femininity was in her... She acts differently, is somehow "colder"... I also read somewhere that the more sexual partners women have, bigger are the chances that she'll be unable to create deeper connection with a man. Is this true?

"And I think God's OK with that. He has enough brides as it is..."

It seems to me that God is the only one that can have many brides... Not fair!! :-)

Yes I also saw that article about Lolo Jones today.Very attractive and of course highly principled woman.A rare bird indeed!

"So I was wondering if these women who actually are virgins when they marry, have any objections if a future husband has lost his "hymen"? :-)"

I think most women past their teens are realistic enough about life to know that this may not be achievable. Whilst a woman like this will avoid a highly promiscuous man like the plague, I think she will not be too hung up on his sexual past. In fact some may prefer a man who is more experienced than them. (Others of course would be pleased and would really respect a man if he were also a virgin at marriage). That's just my own personal view. Perhaps some other woman might like to chime in on this.

"Newer quite got the whole idea about virginity..."

I don't expect you to understand, Metak, lol.But it's great that you see its value in a woman.

"What I do notice on women with my "ManRadar" :-) is that you can clearly see if a women had/has slept with a lot of men. My conclusion: more sexual partners she had - less femininity was in her... She acts differently, is somehow "colder"... I also read somewhere that the more sexual partners women have, bigger are the chances that she'll be unable to create deeper connection with a man. Is this true?"

Well, again my own personal view is that the 'social' studies done on this topic are overwhelmingly compelling. And it makes me wonder if we even actually need a 'study' on this. It does make sense when one understands what femininty is all about.

I think Lolo Jones is a good exaample of this actually. For a woman with such a 'masculine-looking' body (which is in this case highly appropriate given she is a professional athlete), she appears to me to be also incredibly feminine. And given her views, she fits my previous description of 'high T'/'masculine woman' down to a tee.I certainly never got the subtle vibe of the 'coldness' you mention when I was reading about her. I DO get that a lot with some women I hear about or even know. It's an unmistakeable feeling...And what bothers me is, if I as a woman can feel this about them, how much more a man who would interact with them on a more intimate basis? You mention this 'ManRadar'. I wouldn't know much about that. But from what you say, I can't help but believe you that it is a powerful thing for you guys. It is certainly highly developed in most women too. The question is whether it is heeded or not :-)

"It seems to me that God is the only one that can have many brides... Not fair!! :-)"

God is the best PUA (Pick up Artist) that ever existed.This is a comment someone (a man) made on this very blog. Many other Manosphere citizens make this statement in one form or other all the time.You are competing with one heck of an alpha male there, Metak.You have my sympathy :-)

"I certainly never got the subtle vibe of the 'coldness' you mention when I was reading about her."

This was my general observation about women, and if there's such a thing as "woman's intuition" :-), then there's also a kind of "man's intuition" when dealing with women. If he's honest with himself he can notice much more than you think...

"But it's great that you see its value in a woman."I would certainly appreciate it because I can see a lot of girls my age sleeping around thinking "If men can do it why shouldn't women too?". I don't think any man would want a girlfriend/wife that had much more sexual partners than him...

p.s - God told me that's OK for you to talk to me (he used word "infidel" instead.. :-) ) about this issues you know... :-) I appreciate it. :-)

I know. Reading my sentence again I can now see that it is confusing.What I meant was that I never sensed the 'coldness' when I was reading about Lolo, but I sensed it when I was around some other women...

"p.s - God told me that's OK for you to talk to me...about this issues you know... :-) I appreciate it. :-)"

You're welcome.

Well, he told me to talk to you about them too.And to write my next post about you.

I thought I was done with my stupid questions but apparently I'm not... :-)

There's also another category of MGTOW men that I think you forgot to mention. These are natural born MGTOWs! (one label I can put on my forehead :-) )Those that show their little middle finger to doctor when they're born. :-)

Let me explain...

"A woman needs people around her."

Men not so much... I'm talking about those men that don't put family nor society as a priority, they're "strangers" in this "village" and they're willing to leave as they please.

Can you imagine how does it feel for a man, that craves in his very nature for freedom, to say "Fu*k it! There's the whole world out there for me!"?

You're not only funny, you've got great powers of observation too.I did indeed forget the type of man you describe.

"Those that show their little middle finger to doctor when they're born. :-)"

Hahahaha!I am sure there are babies who indeed do this!

I am sure the men can elaborate better on this, but this man you mention is what your fellow men in The Manosphere call a 'natural alpha'.He is despised by most men (who are beta by definition) because this man despite not really contributing to the greater good of society is actually very attractive to women, by his very nature of aloofness and 'I don't care' attitude, so he gets all the girls, whereas the nice beta guy who is sending flowers to the girls gets LJBF'ed.So PUAs try to emulate him in order to get what this man gets.I could be wrong of course, but I think natural alphas are very very few. Most men turn 'alpha' if they encounter a bad situation with a woman and then 'swallow the red pill' whether on their own or with the help of The Manosphere. I am not sure they are born this way. If you say you were born this way, then you are one of a very small minority of men in this world...

I know you wrote your post from woman's point of view and how it effects women but there are men that don't have women as highest priority. Hard to believe I know. :-) You'll notice them as a young boys with a boner in library, thinking about knowledge hidden in all the books and waiting for them. They're the ones that falsify their mothers signature at young age to sign into the library (twice :-)). So you see it's a thin line between "alpha" and a "geek". :-)

I think it's normal for some men NOT to make a woman one of their priorities in life. In fact this is healthy for all men, as it is healthy for all women. There are other things in life other than relationships, even for women who are made for this, but especially for men.

But if a man ignores this aspect of his life permanently, he will regret it. I promise you.Women have less of a problem with this, because her very nature will force her towards relationships at some point...unless there is a higher calling, eg. women who become nuns.Men can get this 'push' too, which begins by the need for sex. If a man is able to overcome this when he is young, he is unlikely to get a second chance at this when he is old and the need for sex is no longer there. Whereas a woman does not really need sex to connect, so she can still form and maintain relationships until she is old. The only problem for her is that she wouldn't be able to have children if she leaves it too late. A tragedy if she wants children of course.

Men can get this 'push' too, which begins by the need for sex. If a man is able to overcome this when he is young, he is unlikely to get a second chance at this when he is old and the need for sex is no longer there."

As you can see I always have to create my own group(META male :-) ) to fit in. :-)

Clearly you view is based on a typical men, so not a META man. META men is a man that has control over his sexuality that comes from taoist teachings and because of it his libido is few times above average men and with years his desire for sex and ability for a really hard one :-) do not go away. :-)

"Whereas a woman does not really need sex to connect, so she can still form and maintain relationships until she is old."

Men can form and maintain relationships without sex but what would be the point in them? That would be friendship with someone of opposite sex who does most of talking while you try to imagine the two of you in every single pose from kamasutra. She would probably think what a great listener you are! :-)

"Clearly you view is based on a typical men, so not a META man. META men is a man that has control over his sexuality that comes from taoist teachings and because of it his libido is few times above average men and with years his desire for sex and ability for a really hard one :-) do not go away. :-)"

I shall have to take your word for it :-)

"Men can form and maintain relationships without sex but what would be the point in them? That would be friendship with someone of opposite sex who does most of talking while you try to imagine the two of you in every single pose from kamasutra. She would probably think what a great listener you are! :-)"

Exactly. It wouldn't really work for a man, precisely the reason why he wouldn't bother.It would however work for a woman.

You could take something else of mine and...Sorry I couldn't help myself there :-)

"It wouldn't really work for a man, precisely the reason why he wouldn't bother."

Au contrair, mon cheri. :-)

For it to work a man needs to see value for him in talking with her... If she's familiar with a subject that intrigues the man, he'll listen and there's rarely a woman that goes by that doesn't make your balls tickle... :-)

Read the post, as well as most of the comments. Very interesting post! Here's what I have to say...

Speaking as a 24 year-old MGHOW, I don't have the experience of divorce or horrible relationships under my belt to motivate me into such a position. Now that may be the case for a lot of the older men out there, but for many of us guys in the younger age brackets who are GTOW, we've observed what has happened to these older men, and we've also seen what our female peers are up to, and we figure, why learn the lesson after going through the pain when one can avoid it altogether?

I have quite a few female friends, some of whom are very close. Listening to them and their stories about how they relate to the genders, and in particular, the two-faced and condescending way in which they treat their spouses, is most illuminating. It gives me some idea of what I can expect had I ever decided to marry, and frankly, I want none of it.

Some of your commenters mentioned this and I will reiterate this very important point: from my experience, a lot of modern women see us men as nothing more than wallets and sperm banks. We are just a commodity to them. It doesn't matter how religious the woman is; the experiences are very much the same.

Again, I should emphasize that I haven't been married/divorced, etc. In fact, for most of my life I've been what one would call a "hopeless romantic," hoping that maybe there's some good left. But what I've seen is that, good or bad, women are first and foremost human, and being human means that there are a lot of strong biological drives at play. Furthermore, the current legal climate gives a lot of incentive to women to satisfy those biological drives even if it happens at the expense of a lot of good, hardworking men.

At one point I think you mentioned something about how, if a woman acted badly, that she was bad to begin with - and I disagree. It is perfectly possible for a "good" woman to turn "bad" at the flick of a switch if her biological needs are somehow unfulfilled. I've seen it happen quite often, and in fact it was one such case where a godly, wonderful woman divorced her husband and ran off with another man (oh and in the divorce, she took most of his stuff), that first made me reconsider my ideas on marriage and love. That's the scary part - it doesn't matter how wonderful or "perfect" a spouse is; it is always possible for that person to completely turn evil. And when that happens, men can't turn to the justice system for help. The divorce court is NOT on our side. All we can do is stand and watch helplessly as the family we worked so hard to provide for, is torn apart, and our life savings are drained away. And heaven help us if a false rape/domestic abuse accusation is thrown in the mix!

With all of that in mind, a lot of my male peers have decided that it's only logical to avoid becoming one of the suckers who ends up contributing to the problems of divorce and exploitation.

MGTOW is not initiation by a long shot... it is liberation. I refuse to be some woman's slave and commodity, only to be thrown away the moment I don't live up to her unrealistic expectations. I'll be a friend, a coworker, or even a brother... but a husband? Never. Trust them with my life if I have to, but never my heart.

Wow, another 24 year old :-)(The last addition to the community here at The Sanctuary was also 24).

"At one point I think you mentioned something about how, if a woman acted badly, that she was bad to begin with - and I disagree."

Fair enough. I was speaking from my own (limited) experience, I guess.

"The divorce court is NOT on our side."

This I know to be true. And I hate it as much as you do.

"MGTOW is not initiation by a long shot... it is liberation." Yes, others also made this point.I accept it.

"I'll be a friend, a coworker, or even a brother... but a husband? Never. Trust them with my life if I have to, but never my heart."

I agree that self-preservation is key, yes.

Thinking about your comment, I fully understand your stance. If you believe that even a good woman can turn bad, then you really should NOT look to marry. Because you will live your married life on tenterhooks, expecting the good woman you find to turn bad. You will be expecting it.This will be bad for you, and for her.So don't do it.I accept all your other points.And I thank you for commenting!

"Fair enough. I was speaking from my own (limited) experience, I guess."

Well, even I used to feel that way about such people. And generally, when such bad behavior is exposed in a person, one can examine that person's past behavior, and in a lot of cases, find many more skeletons in the closet, so to speak. So I can understand the belief that a bad person was always bad to begin with. I used to subscribe to that idea too.

I think what changed for me was noticing how a lot of the GOOD women would act this way at some point, too. Obviously not all of them did this, but sometimes it was a gradual transition, or maybe something triggered the change - it's difficult, if not impossible, to pinpoint the genesis of these things. However, it only speaks to our fallen nature and our concupiscence, our tendency to sin, as human beings, as well as our susceptibility to our biological instincts which may not always work in the best interests of the marriage at hand.

"Because you will live your married life on tenterhooks, expecting the good woman you find to turn bad. You will be expecting it."

I fear I'm laboring under the misapprehension that I automatically assume every woman will turn bad at some point, haha. I tend to take the view that one should prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

However, in this case, it is the fear that even the good will turn bad, COMBINED with the consequences of such an act (and that goes back to the whole divorce issue and the impact it has on families, etc), that makes such an arrangement foolhardy.

One analogy that comes to mind is the difference between swimming in a pool with a full-grown alligator, and swimming in a pool with a baby alligator. If the baby alligator bites you, well, it'll hurt and probably draw blood, but it won't be fatal. If the full-grown alligator bites, you'll probably find yourself standing in front of Saint Peter, explaining why you decided to do something so daft. The incentives that divorce and alimony provide nowadays take a baby alligator and make it a full-grown one.

And yes, I just realized I compared women to alligators, but I suspect that's why so many of them invest in skin care products... :-P

So I've spent the last several days reading up on MGTOW. I was not aware of the movement prior to this and had no idea there was an actual label to this way of thinking. I was doing a lot of researching on the internet and came to find these MGTOW forums and men who shared many similar opinions that I currently have.

For myself I'm 34 yr old man (I would call myself a semi-alpha if there is such a thing), never married and no kids, I wouldn't label myself as MGTOW although as I said there are some areas where I do see eye to eye. When I first started reading up on MGTOW my initial impressions were quite positive. I thought to myself that this is precisely what men need to be doing to bring some balance and order back to severely lopsided Western society that has been screwed by feminism.

However, the more I read on various forums and posts it all began to sound like a rehearsed manifesto of rhetoric being spewed over and over. That's not to say that the position of MGTOWs is not valid and does not hold weight because I think that it does. I've seen many men in my own life (even some family) who have been shamed by women and hung out to dry. But I've seen the exact opposite happen as well with strong, good moral'd and supportive wives who have been destroyed by equally vicious men, so I don't see it as a uniquely female problem, although I do admit the legal system is still swayed very much in their favor I agree.

The problem as I see it is something that I believe ST mentioned earlier. MGTOW does not attempt to fix anything (even though admittedly I don't think that its aim is to fix anything at least not anything more than the individual's current state). In that sense the MGTOW movement is merely instant gratification for the individual who no longer gives a crap about the betterment of society as a whole. It's treating the symptom and not the cause, and in my eyes this is not a sustainable business model for the future. So in that sense it's actually subordinate to feminism. The goal of feminism was to strengthen and gain rights for women as a whole. MGTOW through its own admission is about the individual, it is not working to improve rights for all men.

As I said earlier, I initially thought MGTOW was the balance that was needed to tip the scales out of the favor of feminism, but it really isn't. Its actually worse, it's turning your back on and ignoring a problem thats much larger than the individual. It's not having a dog in the fight, it's a passive-aggressive acceptance of the way things are, which means that things will not change. In my honest opinion I do not think that MGTOW does anything constructive to counter feminism. I believe that it will actually emblazon feminists further into the future. The whole 2 wrongs making a right thing I suppose.

The machine is very obviously broken, I wholeheartedly admit that. Divorce rates are skyrocketing, marriage rates are plummeting and infidelity runs RAMPANT in this country. But as ST put it, men sitting huddled together in their own corner bitter, emblazoned and indifferent isn't going to fix it. All you will accomplish is to send your children (for those of you who choose to have any through whatever means you choose to procreate if you do) into another generation/society as equally, if not more, broken than the one you currently find yourself in.

If MGTOWs are OK with this and comfortable with indoctrinating their future generations (including sons, nephews, etc) with the idea from a young age that they've been birthed into a fundamentally f*@ked up feminist society with no possibility of change/improvement then so be it, I'm talking to deaf ears. Maybe dad taking his teenage son to have sex with his first prostitute will become the new father/son bonding ritual of future generations :-)

I am beginning to realise that The Red Pill is a dynamic process. It is not static.

After the humiliation of having to take the Red Pill in the first place because one has encountered something terrible in one's life, it is kind of natural to avoid any more pain, i.e. in this case, avoid those b*tches (otherwise known as 'woman' altogether).

I understand that.What I and the other women who share their thoughts on this blog are saying is that this need not be a permanent thing. (In fact we have been debating this very issue in the post about hypergamy just the last couple of days). There is a necessary evolution of sorts which needs to take place, otherwise one is stuck in 'gear one' for the rest of one's life.I cmpletely agree with you in what you say.You seem to be one of the lucky men who has moved beyond the initial realisation that something needs to change, i.e. Red Pill awareness that you are not living in the same circumstances of your grandparents.

I think men are better served, as you say, by enforcing the new 'rules of engagement' so that they get what they want, which is the good women their grandfathers had, rather than, again as you say, reacting passively to the crisis that is going on.I think in fact the majority of male Manosphere bloggers are indeed doing this...TPM, Danny, The Rules Revisited, Dogsquat, to name a few.Yes, to this end, they perhaps need the cooperation of women to some degree to spread the word.Well, I for one am quite happy to spread Red Pill wisdom to feral women. I really am.

I have no doubt though that there are some men who really are cut out for the MGTOW lifestyle. Such men should do as they please. But I think the majority of so-called MGTOW are just still stuck in that early stage of 'grief' or 'pain' or even 'anticipated fear' (if, for example they are yet to experience the problems their fathers have faced but are scarred nonetheless).But as Bellita once put it, this end of the spectrum of MGTOW men are the bastard sons of feminism. You say the same thing, more or less, in your comment.I really hope they can get out of these Red Pill early stage teething problems and do what's really right for them. Making a decision based on fear/pain/anger is such a terrible thing.If they are sure that they still want the whole MGTOW thing after they have worked through all the necessary stages they must pass through, then fair enough, I truly respect their decisions.And there were quite a few commenters on this thread who were in this position and seemed calm and collected in their assertion that MGTOW was indeed the right thing for them.It is the angry, bitter ones that I have the most concern for.But perhaps you and I should not be concerned for them. Those guys should just be left alone to go lick their wounds. However long it takes...

In the meantime those anti-man laws should really be sorted out...they are a disgrace, and even I as a woman am disgusted with them.And I am annoyed that they are passed on my behalf. I never asked for that. I don't want it.

The feminists can keep prattling on...no-one is listening to their drivel anymore anyway...Their time is past...women my age and younger are finding a new way to negotiate life...as are, clearly, men like you.

Thanks so much for your encouraging comment. And good luck in your personal life.

And keep commenting here!(I wish you would pick a handle so that you are identifiable - or at least add your alias at the end of your comment like some others do here eg. The Navy Corpsman).

I am a 30 years old MGHOW. I am not closed to the idea of a relationship with a woman, but I will never get married nor live with a woman. To be honest, meeting a wonderful woman and falling in love is one of my biggest fears, because of the financial devestation that could occur as a result.

MGTOW is the rational solution to the minefield that is the modern dating/marriage market. ST, would you trust a woman in this modern environment? You view MGTOWs as bitter men who can't get past their past greivances, I see them as survivalists. The most primal desire is self preservation, it is even more primal than the desire to mate.

I also see MGTOW as boycotting the system. Boycotting seemed to work well during the civil rights movement, therefore, I think more men should do it.

Feminists are waging a war against men. MRAs are trying to turn the tide of the war. PUAs are making deals with the enemy. MGTOWs are the pacifists who believe non violent resistance and abstention are the best means of self preservation and change. Unfortunately, people such as yourself are the collateral damage.

I like to have men's opinion on this thread, especially younger men like yourself, because well, it's eye opening for me.

"To be honest, meeting a wonderful woman and falling in love is one of my biggest fears, because of the financial devestation that could occur as a result."

Why does this sadden me so? It's the inclusion of the word 'wonderful'. If you had said you were afraid of encountering a nasty woman, I'd be agreeable. But to learn that even a great woman is a 'no-go' for you makes me relive Bellita's words that 'the game was over long before she was even on the pitch' so to speak.

"ST, would you trust a woman in this modern environment?"

The reason this is an unfair question is that I am a woman myself, and although I am well aware there are some pretty bad women out there, I am also more likely than men (at least Manosphere men anyway) to have met some outstanding women too. So I could never be completely jaded about women as you or any other man potentially could. It just could never happen that way for me. That said, I couldn't really ask you if you could trust a man in this SMP, because I know that your question was based on a much wider issue than just individual women's characters. And it is for this reason that despite my sadness at your first sentence I respond to above, I understand that you are worried that even with a wonderful woman, things with her could easily turn bad because the laws in our respective countries allow or encourage bad behaviour from women. I get that. In a post of mine (I think it was the Contract killers post) I mention the phenomenon of 'low hanging fruit' that a woman who is encouraged to will grab, as would anyone put in such a position. That's perhaps human nature, not restricted to any one gender.I think therefore, that if the laws won't be changed, then a man who wants to marry needs to be sure that his woman will not be one who is tempted by 'low hanging fruit'.

"You view MGTOWs as bitter men who can't get past their past greivances..."

My first instinct was to deny this, because it sounds terrible! But actually, you are right. But note that my seeing them as 'bitter' is not necessarily shaming or even blaming them. Bitter in this sense is purely a descriptive word, and in fact I would venture as far as saying that a lot of these men might not deny that they do feel bitter. And many of them have a right to be bitter! But you know, I don't think it helps anyone to be encouraged in their bitterness... Let's not forget that bitter women also have a claim on grievances against men...and so on. Bitter begets bitter... and in the end, no-one wins.

"MGTOW is the rational solution to the minefield that is the modern dating/marriage market.

I see them as survivalists."

Yes. I acknowledge that for some men this is the way to go.Whatever works for any one individual.

"The most primal desire is self preservation, it is even more primal than the desire to mate."

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. Hence my last sentence above.

About collateral damage, yes, there are always people who fall through the net. (Might I say, I detect a compliment of sorts in your last sentence by the way, because I get the impression that you are implying that I am somehow 'not one of the bad guys' - so thanks! That's nice of you :-).Assuming that I am indeed a blameless 'collateral damage', it would be a fate that I would accept (not willingly of course!) but life is never fair all of the time, so I would put it down to 'it happens'.In any case, there are worse things in life than not ever getting married :-)Even for a woman.

Thanks for your comment. I get something new out of every new comment I receive on this thread.

I'm only MGTOW in the very loose, face-value sense of the term (i.e. without all the other ideas usually accompanying it).

To me, there's only one real reason for a man to get married - if he plans to have children. Because I decided at age 28 not to be a father, that practically eliminated all the motivation to seek out a woman. Furthermore, I find life so much more relaxed without having a co-pilot. I'm free to do my own thing and have no obligations to anyone but the law, the boss, and the creditors (in the sense of to whom I pay the bills - I don't borrow from financial institutions, even use debit instead of credit).

Also, in the late 20, A LOT of things are going on - ones working against the vast majority of women (unless you're as hot as ScarJo or Christina Hendricks).

*The male sex drive is considerably weaker at 30 than at 22. Hence there's less motivation for a man to seek out women in the first place. They also discover they are more clear-thinking and sensible without a libido than with it. Hence, it's nature liberating them from the tyranny of testosterone (at least that's my take on the matter).

*Some decide not to have kids. If 1 in 5 women today in their 40s have never given birth, is it that much of a stretch to think a comparably equal number of men have likewise decided not to have children? I don't know if this is true, but I heard in NYC at least, it's not unusual for men in their mid-twenties to get vasectomies.

*Life's experience begins to create a new reality for 30'something men. If the main remains unattached, he's practically assured to hear about the sundry horror stories about men getting raped in court. Everybody knows what this entails, so I won't repeat the litany.

*What a 30 yr old (or even late 20s man in some cases) finds attractive in women changes over time. He demands more substance of character and intellectual content in his woman's day-to-day conversations - and a man that age will sacrifice A LOT in the way of looks to get this from women. So even quite attractive late 20s and especially 30 something women will discover that their physical attractiveness and hot bodies are not enough to win them a man. Speaking of which.

*Attractiveness itself loses it's sales value, no matter how well she ages. Again, life's experience begins to catch up with them here. The MGTOW men have had their experiences with attractive women, and an alarming number of them were not very empathetic or have even the basics of kindness. Hotness, no matter how animal-appealing it is, says NOTHING about the character, integrity, kindness, and compassion level of the woman.

As for 30-something men playing the field - that's just the 30-something man's version of the 20-something hot woman's approaching bad boys. They know they're in demand, have no inclination to get married or perhaps even have kids. It's not a matter of being "mature" or not: It's a matter of the ability to have children at X age. Men can have children well into their 40s, or even 50s and beyond. Women canNOT. It's not fair, but that's the way nature designed us, and we have to work with that fact best we can.

*Furthermore, you have men like me who decided there's no point in having kids, and hence no point in even flirting with women, let alone enter into a relationship with them - for the simple reason that for the past 15 years or so (I'm 44 now), I been, as I like to say, "20% hetereosexual, 80% asexual". May not be 100% accurate as I do have some small interest in women physically, but that's it. Yes, I've been that way since age 30, when I decided happiness comes from within, not from outside of you (in this case, a woman in your arms). So what incentive do I have to even flirt when I'm complete within myself?

I have to say that your view is somewhat different from others I have had on this thread. Your thoughts are so well laid out, even I can understand them easily ;)

I so agree with you that the decrease in testosterone makes a man more 'clear-minded' lol.

I have come across this phenomenon of men who really begin to see women's character and worth (aside from their physical attractiveness which I believe should still matter to a man no matter how old he is), after a certain age.And this is why I believe that good women should not panic if they are still single late into their 20s and 30s. The same man who ignored her because she was not 'hot' enough will now see her in a different light (because her femininity and good character only becomes apparent to him when his need to 'chase skirt all over town' subsides somewhat. In this sense, it is almost the same phenomenon as the 'former carousel riders' who abandon the hopeless alphas for the nice 'beta'. I say 'almost' because whilst it usually works out for the man in the first scenario, it doesn't, usually, for this sort of woman because of another 'unfair' natural law, which is, the marrying man sees a 'carouseller' as too high a risk for longterm commitment.

I also agree with you that the desire for children is a major factor in men marrying these days. Those who don't want children don't feel the need, especialy with the divorce laws as they are. More and more, I am seeing that I cannot possibly blame these men.But perhaps the laws do not necessarily have to be changed?Men and women simply have to be righteous and just. In the event of a divorce, kids have to be financially catered for. That's a given. No-one is denying that, I am sure. But does the payout to the woman have to be so astronomical? Does he have to become homeless and broken? That's my issue.

Anyhow, since I am not married and don't have children, perhaps I am not seeing things from a mother's and ex-wife's point of view. Perhaps the point of it all is not about the money. Perhaps it's the emotions. If two people are separating, then it means there is some bad blood between them, and the woman may just be using the laws to punish the man. Perhaps if the laws were in favour of men, they too would use them to punish women?I think people always think more clearly after a 'cool down' period. Thse who don't are the nasty types who really do have bad characters.

If you don't want children and you don't feel the need to be in a relationship with a woman, then I think you are doing the right thing for yourself by staying single. It's great when you KNOW the right thing for you. Many people sadly don't really know what's right for them and are in an endless search for their own personal Truth.So you are one of the lucky ones. Congratulations :-)And thanks for your comment. I liked reading it. Full of calm, no-nonsense Truths.

"Most women's main strategy with men is to exchange sex or access to his offspring for cold hard cash."

Some of this is 'natural' in that a woman really has to think 'what happens if I get pregnant'? Even if she does not get pregnant (and motherhood is the most vulnerable state for a woman with no (financial) means of raising her child) the 'wiring' is already there that makes her think this way.So don't knock it. Your mother had to think this way in order to ensure your survival, as did mine.

But I agree that what's unforgivable is that a woman fails to see that she has to give something back in order to get this privilege of financial security. That is the missing chip post-feminism...That missing chip is called femininity, and it includes such unmentionables as grace, charm, compassion, kindness, sweetness, beauty...

"With so many MGTOW men, women are worried they will not be able to get to the money."

Yes, for those whose only goal was the money. There are also others who realise that their natural desire to be wife and mother has been taken away from them...and this hurts irrespective of the factor of money...

"Truth is women get to men's money by a never ending barrage of social programs for them specifically to the exclusion of men. Yet men pay the majority of taxes."

Again, true. Perhaps this is a strategy to keep the flame of 'feminism' burning...If you don't force women to see their own declining femininities, they will continue to make the same mistakes and the status quo (which suits the powers that be) never changes. The family unit continues to be destroyed, men and women continue to fight non-stop and everybody suffers.Someone somewhere is laughing...but the question is ...who? And why?Despite my post 'Dissidents of the sphere, who exactly are they?' I am not sure I have a clear answer to this question.Any tips for me?

A very well-written article, SpaceTraveller and I admire your objectivity on the issue. As my fellow MGTOW brothers have expressed rather eloquently, most of us do not look at this “going our own way” as an initiation into anything. It’s just a process of liberating ourselves! Metak and CommanderSnoey have put forth most of the points that I wanted to be seen. Still, it’s a topic (MGTOW) very close to my consciousness, so here I let myself go:

I am a 25-year-old MGHOW (apparently, not the only one here ;-)) and to be absolutely honest, my personal experiences with women have been rather good. Read that as – “I’ve encountered a lot of women with fine personal character traits”. My mother, a great childhood pal, paternal aunt, ex-girlfriend and a couple of university friends included. My frame of reference includes studying across three countries and interacting with women of many cultures; oft with an insight to delve deep into the female psyche.

Personally speaking, I’ve never been burnt badly, never been framed unfairly, and never been emotionally/physically abused by women. But it’s important that a man should learn not just through his own experiences, but also be keenly observant of what happens around him. Going my own way was a rational decision based on what legal/social/political leverage was allowed to women. This is not to say that most women would use it unfairly, but as a defenceless male, you are always exposed to that possibility. Your well-being and future is entirely dependent on your girlfriend/wife not abusing this immense power bestowed upon her. One thing I’ve always despised in my life was relinquishing control and as a heterosexual, able-bodied adult male that’s exactly what the current dating/marriage set-up is designed for. And it’s pretty common in the “Anglosphere” as well as western European nations and southern Asia (to be specific, the non-Islamic nations of the region). IMHO, the worst place to be a man in 2012 is Sweden. Norway, India and the United States follow suit, from my limited observations. As a germane side note, for American men that wish to go expat, please avoid these countries like the Black Plague...(contd.)..

Coming back to the core issue, IMHO, the nature of the beast (the Homo Sapien mammal) is that it’s an opportunistic and conniving animal - men and women alike. I’m an unapologetic Spencerist (or Darwinist, if you will) and believe that it takes an unusually strong will/conscience to refuse a clear advantage that is offered to you on a plate. The draconian femiNazi laws in the Western nations (and West-aping nations) encourage parasitism and satisfaction of the woman’s carnal hypergamous instincts.

F*ck the alpha, get the beta to take care of your half-bred bastards and threaten with dire consequences should you be asked to take responsibility - seems to satisfy both urges in a woman … The primitive animalistic one as well as the contemporary need for social/monetary security … And the best part (from an opportunistic woman’s POV) is that there is no risk of social censure that this form of prostitution (cum extortion) is socially accepted; in fact even the “in-thing” that is tacitly encouraged in some lobbies. A terribly unfair advantage given to an opportunistic mammal and she takes it – there would be no reason for surprise or admonition here, if this were a jungle!

What would be the logical course for a straight-thinking Homo Sapien male? Simply, self-preservation. Cutting oneself completely from the risk of losing it all.

Think about the investments you make in life to be where you are. I finished a Master’s degree in engineering last year from one of the most reputed universities in mainland Europe and am now working in a high-paying job in the energy sector. I am pretty athletic (an ardent mountaineer and marathoner), fairly articulate in four languages, a reasonable singer and a naturally extroverted “people’s person”. Love to read on different subjects, have intellectually stimulating conversations, tasting whiskey and travelling the world with my backpack! My blissful mental state, reputation and financial condition could ALL be at stake if I decide to enter into a romantic/marital alliance with a female.

Fellow young men, ask yourselves this - is a fleeting sense of carnal self-gratification worth risking all this? To SpaceTraveller and other good women, I hope you appreciate the logic behind this decision. I’ve left the village (or the 'plantation') for good and I hope you find peace in yours; just as I find sanity in mine :-)

If I may say so, your comment is so eloquent!And your thoughts elegantly presented.

It is always interesting for me to hear from any man as to why he specifically is GHOW. Whilst it is not by any means unusual to hear that a specific man is GHOW despite a good 'record' of relationships with women, what's unusual about your situation is that you actually have a very good recollection of encounters with women, platonic or otherwise. That's great to hear.

I think I have heard about the 'self-preservation' argument before. Well, it makes sense. That's the very first golden rule of any living being's existence, no? Self-preservation is afterall the basis of all our 'reflexes' including the 'grasp' reflexes we see in young babies...Yesterday, as I was walking to work, I heard a baby's cry coming from a nearby building. I was suddenly reminded that a baby's cry is actually a very important thing for its survival. It may be annoying for its parents if it goes on all night, but for that baby, its cry could literally save its life. Supposing there was an Earthquake or other such disaster and I happened to walk by the house which had just collapsed...the baby's cry would be all that lets me know of its existence...bigger children and adults can take care of themselves. A baby is totally dependent on its cry to elicit the help it needs. Self-preservation. There you go.Whilst I don't equate grown men with helpless crying babies (lol), I see the parallels with the self-preservation angle. If you are not sure that a woman you marry today won't divorce-rape you in 20 years, then it might be safer not to marry her at all, yes. At the altar, all parties MUST be sure of what they are doing. That's one thing I thank the Catholic Church for. For one, it doesn't like divorce. For two, I know no priest will marry me unless they are sure I understand what marriage is. They don't hand out marriage licences like smarties round my neck of the woods...

I have a little theory. Now, I must warn you that I am one of those who delight in 'conspiracy theories' and related paranoia, so my hamster knows no limit when it comes to stuff like this!I think that those of you MGTOW who are in it for your own sanity/self-preservation may be helping out those of your brothers who want to get married but simply cannot find marriageable women. Because most women WANT to get married, more and more women will step up to the plate in the future. The pendulum WILL swing back...perhaps too far the other way lol? Not that any man will complain too much if life went back to how it was in the 50s :-)

I don't lament that you in particular have left the village, Bear. You sound happy in yourself as you are. I respect that. If it is what would make you truly happy, then go for it. I invite you to come for tea every now and again though :-)

To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I realise that the village doesn't please me either. That temptation to accept an unfair advantage doesn't appeal to me personally. It's what I call 'low-hanging fruit'. I believe that if I am to couple up with a man (perhaps an ex-MGHOW?) I would really have to leave the current village and follow him to a new village far away from the current village we all live in, with its increasingly diabolical laws...But even as a single woman, I think I am already in the process of making the psychological leap in my own head. That's an essential first step for me.

"The pendulum WILL swing back...perhaps too far the other way lol? Not that any man will complain too much if life went back to how it was in the 50s :-)"

Maybe. Maybe the pendulum is going to swing in a whole new direction, not back to the 1950s, rather, forward to the 2020's? Maybe the number of marriages will fall to record low numbers, while divorces continue to rise?

Now you'd appreciate that the 'sanctuary' seems a rather unnatural place for a bear straight out of wilderness, but I'll try to survive :-) Visiting the villagers sometimes for tea/barbecue is not a problem at all. We don't despise the village or its inhabitants; its just that we have a set of objectives that requires our withdrawal from the village. I've seen from your comments that you realise this phenomenon appreciably well.

"I have a little theory. ... more and more women will step up to the plate in the future."

Interesting theory. Not as zany as it would have perhaps sounded in your head the first time! There could be some truth to it. As opposed to marriage I personally am, two genuine people who strongly believe in it would always receive my best wishes.

For sure, the mainstream media, the legal system and the governement would "protect" women from having a long, hard look in the mirror. It's the privilege on the plate that I talked about and it takes a personal of above-average mental strength to refuse that. Law of averages states that many women will still be blind to self-introspection. Declining marriage rates will raise eyebrows ONLY if it begins to affect the socio-political setup. That's when the "few, grumpy male losers living in their mom's basements" would not be seen as the mocking objects but rightly recognised as symptoms indicative of a bigger issue. Not sure if the damage wouldn't already have been done irrepairably by then! In terms of psychological damage to marriage-minded men and a complete absence of trust in across-gender societal transactions. I wish I could have your optimism in this regard!