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A number of ideas proposed in the "Baseline Skillset" thread made reference to fascia and internal connection. This webpage and related pages at the site provides some illustration of the biological basis for the discussion:

That book is an OK reference book about fascia, Tom, but it doesn't really tell you much that is useful. Roughly speaking, the strength from the ground goes through the bones (ki of Earth) and the "connective", "down-pulling" strength (ki of Heaven) goes through the fascia/ki arrangement (which is more complex than that simple statement implies).

Just saying "strength through the bones" makes someone want to say "of course... everyone knows that", but the kokyu/jin strength through the bones is something different and not part of the normal mechanics of the body. That's the jin/kokyu-force area and I'd recommend people focus on that before they get into the fascia stuff. Dan's discussions and training are pretty obviously more around the jin/kokyu area and that's the correct thing for people to learn first, IMO. There is no good book that adequately describes the how's of jin/kokyu... they're all to vague and cryptic.

If someone wants a sketchy overview of the basic Shaolin approach to "fascia" training (you really can't do jin without fascia and its breath training.... you can't really do correct fascia training without jin), then I'd recommend getting a copy of Mantak Chia's book "Iron Shirt Chi Kung I). It's not complete or fully coherent, but it will give a good intro and pictures to give people an idea.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt people to look around. Ueshiba certainly did.... Aikido is founded on the Ki of Earth and the Ki of Heaven, the famous Yin-Yang dichotomy.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Could you tell me which exercise, in which edition of this book? Is it a breathing exercise? Much thanks!

Could you tell me which exercise, in which edition of this book? Is it a breathing exercise? Much thanks!

I forget, but I think someone said that these 2 are not in every printing of the book. The version I have is a seventh printing and it's the first 2 breathing exercises in chapter 7.... one in seiza and the other in standing.

Incidentally, I just remembered something about "Anatomy Trains" that I noticed when I read the book. The author pretty much lays out these "paths" of fascia without saying how he arrived at the idea of the paths, but it looks pretty obvious that he simply borrowed the ancient muscle-tendon pathways (the precursors to the acupuncture meridians). The muscle-tendon channels can hook up in different combinations and that's seen in Mantak Chia's book in the drawings of the standing postures.

Thanks Mike. Aha, is it this one? Damn and blast, I have the brand new version of the book which revised this exercise out of it.

Damn and blast is correct and succinct. Those exercises should be taught (fully and correctly; Tohei's version/description is almost wilfully incomplete, IMO) in every Aikido class. If they were good enough for O-Sensei's strength and health, they should pass muster for Aikido students, I'd think.

Quote:

I'm also going to try the exercise you suggested in post 2 of this really excellent thread. I'm finding I can feel the pressure more strongly with this exercise than the Ki society exercises.

Yeah, but...... once you understand that feeling, you'll be able to maximize what is supposed to be done in the exercises in the Tohei book. The principle is the same. There's an ancient Japanese post about Misogi being the way of concentrating the ki/breath behind the navel that I put up once on AikiWeb to see if anyone caught it. My description in that post #2 was how to do exactly that, but I'm not sure many people caught that, either.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt people to look around. Ueshiba certainly did.... Aikido is founded on the Ki of Earth and the Ki of Heaven, the famous Yin-Yang dichotomy.

Best.

Mike Sigman

I have the old version of that book somewhwere. WIthout looking it up again, I remember his methods not discussing what is really being trained at all. I just don't feel like finding it. FWIW that exercise is not a Ueshiba "invention" or discovery. He got it from Takeda. It's part of the DR in/yo ho breath-power method. It's mentioned briefly and incompletely in Certa's new book on his training in mainline DR, with a picture of Tokimune Takeda doing it-think seated in seiza. Which is not a good way to do it IMO. It's interesting to read and hear those of the mainline denouncing certain aiki/Ki training. And then they publish a picture of their head chef doing just that. It would be fascinating to see just how many of any given art actually knew anything at all about the internal workings of their own art.

FWIW that exercise is not a Ueshiba "invention" or discovery. He got it from Takeda. It's part of the DR in/yo ho breath-power method.

Where did Takeda get it? It's a fairly common procedure and there are many variations (I spotted it without any real effort and I didn't study with Takeda). Ueshiba may well have gotten it from Takeda, but then again he may not have, since Ueshiba obviously got some other things from other people in his life. Let's just leave it at "Ueshiba may have gotten it from Takeda", since that's the best we can logically do.... if we have to even bring it into the discussion. Again, I can't fathom why you seem compulsively intent on wresting all credit from Ueshiba and giving it to Takeda. Do a little of your "huggin' and making friends" here and just let the old men be.

How about chipping in to the topic? If you understand the standing breathing method, why not describe what's being done, precisely. I'm sure you must be aware that there are some details that haven't been mentioned like how the forces are directed, etc. Why not tell us more about the procedure since it's part of something you studied?

Again, I can't fathom why you seem compulsively intent on wresting all credit from Ueshiba and giving it to Takeda. Do a little of your "huggin' and making friends" here and just let the old men be.
Regards,
Mike Sigman

Why? Becaue you seem compulsively intent on bringing up Tohei and Ueshiba and just about NEVER talking about Takeda.
There is a history of Westerners being lied to and seeing an attempt at eliminating the connection of Daito ryu to Aikido. I've not forgotten it. To me much of your writing is more of the same on any other day. I think we need to be-truly- bypartison and all emcompassing. I am attempting to be more inclusive-not less.
If I took the entire summation of your writing here, thousands of posts, you may have a handful- I doubt even that-that mentions any, connection of internal skills from Takeda to Ueshiba.
I personally find it interesting in that any man who was alive then stated clearly and bluntly that Takeda's skills were superior-even though they didn't like him. There are other stories of men who trained with Sagawa or Kodo and Ueshiba. They just are not known. They found the DR guys internal skills superior as well. So it seems comical to be stressing the skills of a lessor light in a lineage of giants.
So no big deal, But its why I keep bringing it up.

If you want to suggest "Let old men be"
Then start with yourself instead of nitpick on me.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

So someone said somwhere something about maybe Tohei learned this from Ueshiba.....and you quote it. Why are you compulsive about brining up Tohei and Ueshiba?
OK. Fine by me then. Let your knowledge of the connection stop there. I won't argue. It doesn't really matter any more anyway

Why? Becaue you seem compulsively intent on bringing up Tohei and Ueshiba and just about NEVER talking about Takeda.
There is a history of Westerners being lied to and seeing an attempt at eliminating the connection of Daito ryu to Aikido. I've not forgotten it. To me much of your writing is more of the same on any other day. I think we need to be-truly- bypartison and all emcompassing. I am attempting to be more inclusive-not less.
If I took the entire summation of your writing here, thousands of posts, you may have a handful- I doubt even that-that mentions any, connection of internal skills from Takeda to Ueshiba.
I personally find it interesting in that any man who was alive then stated clearly and bluntly that Takeda's skills were superior-even though they didn't like him. There are other stories of men who trained with Sagawa or Kodo and Ueshiba. They just are not known. They found the DR guys internal skills superior as well. So it seems comical to be stressing the skills of a lessor light in a lineage of giants.
So no big deal, But its why I keep bringing it up.

If you want to suggest "Let old men be"
Then start with yourself instead of nitpick on me.

So someone said somwhere something about maybe Tohei learned this from Ueshiba.....and you quote it. Why
are you compulsive about brining up Tohei and Ueshiba?
OK. Fine by me then. Let your knowledge of the connection stop there. I won't argue. It doesn't really matter any more anyway

OK, let's try and do it like we do on the big-boys' forums, then. You made a flat assertion that Ueshiba learned those qigongs/breathing-methods from Takeda. How do you know that? Source? Where do you think I learned about them... Takeda? There are other sources and Ueshiba certainly studied around.

I completely knew from Aikido books about Takeda Sokaku long before you ever came around trying to set the record straight, so the idea that no credit is given to Takeda is simply wrong.

Thirdly, what is your connection with Daito Ryu that you have such a compelling concern about Takeda? You didn't study with Takeda and no one seems to know who you've ever spent much time studying with. How about explaining why you're so interested in this one aspect of correcting Aikido people on the antecedents?

Lastly, back on topic... once again I have asked if you can contribute facts about exactly how to do something. In the past, you've consistently gone quiet when asked if you knew specifically how to do something. How about a meaningful response? After all, none of this part is "secret" and you've indicated that you can teach "advanced".

The big boys forums?
Wait now...is this where ..I... cry foul, that you're getting personal like you continually do after throwing out these off-hand little digs to people.
You read like a kid in need trying to get a seat at the grown-ups table What was that you said to Rob "You'll spank them in their bums, while Rob dangles the carrots? I think that speaks for itself, without any commentary from me.

My point about your posting history of this topic is valid.
My posts about Ueshiba and Takeda are complete enough to be understood. While you have a workable knowledge in others areas, your rebuttals about this topic lack any real substance and demonstrate that you simply don't know the subject well enough. I advocate both for Ueshiba and/or for Takeda as the subject warrants, with the intent that they are both looked at. Your agreement or ability to see that is not required.

I believe that all of these methods were and are inspired of Nature. That is a source larger than any person, yet can help to explain why so many people from so many traditions from such distant lands have come up with the same 'stuff'. I don't really care 'who' or 'what' as it is most important to engage the 'how'. So, yeah, offer up your methods so that others may benefit from your practice.

Some of my practices in this area are personal and unusual. For example, just stand on the beach, if you've got one, with your knees bent and face toward the ocean and breathe. And monitor the change in your own physiology. I get heavy and I relax and I feel like the wave moving through me. When I practice on the mat I use the powers of recall to put me back in this state and I draw others into this state with me.

The big boys forums?
Wait now...is this where ..I... cry foul, that you're getting personal like you continually do after throwing out these off-hand little digs to people.

Yeah, well, you may not realize that there are established formats of discussion and that many discussion groups have relied for centuries on them, but that's what I call the big boys' forums. The grownup forums where rules of debate and proof are adhered to, rather than pseudo-martial-protocols where suddenly debate is avoided by discussion of "secrets", "I don't like your posting style" (without considering how sickening one's own posting style is), and "I deserve respect because I make some appeal to authority", and so on. If you're unaware of the difference, please don't argue with me about it... go find out about it because I assure you that's more the norm than the "posting style" of many people on so-called martial-arts forums.

Quote:

My point about your posting history of this topic is valid.

Really? I know this will go the way of other demands for sources in the past, but can you show me an example, for once, rather than just arguing by assertion? That's how the "big boys" do it, Dan.

Quote:

My posts about Ueshiba and Takeda are complete enough to be understood. While you have a workable knowledge in others areas, your rebuttals about this topic lack any real substance and demonstrate that you simply don't know the subject well enough.

Great. So, SECOND REQUEST FOR SOURCE: How do you know for sure that Ueshiba learned those breathing techniques from Takeda? Back it up, since you "know the subject well enough".

Lastly, again, for the umpteenth time... let's see your solid knowledge about the breathing techniques, as I've requested in the last several posts. The "big boys" don't go silent when asked for specifics, Dan. Nor do they suddenly pull their posts, and so on. Nor do they immediately shift the discussion to someone's personality. A lot of the discussion about "digs" and "posting style" have nothing to do with legitimate conversation, but more about someone not playing martial role-play games with *some* of the other posters. Best way to avoid all the friction? Discuss within a defined framework. The recognized framework is the "big boys" rules for discussion, which are the basis for any legitimate forum in English-speaking formats.

Someone on the QiJin forum recently brought up your name as someone who they'd like to see post on that forum. I asked them what you'd ever explained on any other forum in terms of "how to" and so forth. The point being that making assertions, avoiding answers to direct questions, pulling your posts, and claiming "secrets" as a reason not to answer questions would simply cause legitimate posters with legitimate knowledge to get irritated. You cry "foul"? On what grounds? If you have a factual and legitimate beef, backed up by quoted sources and examples, put it out there. You'll find suddenly that you understand why my "posting style" follows a certain pattern.

Lastly, again, for the umpteenth time... let's see your solid knowledge about the breathing techniques, as I've requested in the last several posts. The "big boys" don't go silent when asked for specifics, Dan.

While I simply cannot imagine talking to someone like you do, I will offer that actually, Mike the "real" big boys, not some amatuers on a forum, always have witheld their knoweldge. Which has been the source of the problem for so long.
I do enough. I show enough. Where it counts. up close and personal. Since it can't be learned here and is difficult enough to learn in person -whats the point really?

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

Someone on the QiJin forum recently brought up your name as someone who they'd like to see post on that forum.

No thank you. I'm sure I have nothing to contribute. Anyone who thinks I do is most likely mistaken.

I do enough. I show enough. Where it counts. up close and personal. Since it can't be learned here and is difficult enough to learn in person -whats the point really?

Actually, I wonder what the point is, also. If you're not going to discuss anything coherently, even simple basics, why do you post so often what you can do? You've been asked that before by other people, IIRC.

Quote:

Actually I think I never will. I don't think like you, nor do I want to. We're just different in our approach to people. Due to that our attempts at communicating here become irrelevant bandwidth.

Notice you haven't answered a single direct question about your claims. Look back over recent posts. You've made assertions. When asked for support to those assertions, the best you can come up with is that you don't think like me, attempting once again to make it a personality issue rather than address the point. It's juvenile. You don't even attempt to explain it because it can't be explained, unless your oblique intimation that you're a "big boy" in the martial-arts world is what you want to leave with us.

Let me say something else about the QiJin forum, which I agree is not for you and I didn't extend an invitation, so you needn't thank me. The forum is a private, closed forum so legitimate martial artists with legitimate knowledge can post comfortably, keeping their knowledge to a known and limited audience. The second reason it's kept private is because of a well-known problem about people with a little knowledge who play it up as a lot of knowledge and who simply want to gather information in order to bolster their own status as a "teacher". It would be OK if someone legitimately knew things, but too often there are teachers who teach their own made-up interpretations of things, just using the buzzwords to legitimize their positions. We simply want to avoid being a part of giving people like that some academic ideas with which to potentially mislead other people who really want to learn. It's bad enough when people are missing crucial information; it's equally bad if people get one step closer and then disappointingly get led down a wrong road. I mentioned that possibility when I gave my opinion that care has to be taken that "kokyu" learned to advance in Aikido isn't the wrong brand of kokyu for Aikido (in a post or two made within the last year).

The buzzword phenomena is pretty common and the limited abilities taught as the whole of the abilities is another common problem. In Taiji, there are scads of "teachers" who have "been teaching for many years" but who don't even have basic jin skills. These people can be seen at many workshops, going around correcting peoples' forms, seemingly oblivious to the fact that they've never gotten to first base themselves. The same phenomenon is true in Aikido. *That* is equally a part of the problem as much as is the problem you pointed about the expert martial artists who don't pass their knowledge along,

I've asked directly for you to support direct assertions that you've made. I've asked in a number of cases over a couple of years. You simply don't reply, even though it's in black and white that you've made the assertion. While you may take the position, along with a small number of cohorts, that you don't support your own assertions because it's someone else's fault, I doubt your argument is being bought by a lot of people who read that position from you.

I wasn't confused. I chose to answer and address your sarcasm toward me and specifically ignore the other points.
You actually, almost got through an entire post to me without a smartass remark, congratulations.
Judging by your replies to me regarding stretching in the silk reeling posts as well as the information you offered in the breath thread. You either have a ways to go yet, or you're holding back information...gee what a surprise that would be huh? Why...then you would be doing what you're accusing me of.
Say it ain't so.....we both know it's so.

Thanks for the description and stated goals of the Qjing list. I already know all about it. I can only hope it's an improvement over the Neijia list. I'm glad you're enjoying it and I truly hope it accomplishes all your goals,
I don't want to keep doing this. Its off topic
And I see no point in P.M's.
See ya

Judging by your replies to me regarding stretching in the silk reeling posts as well as the information you offered in the breath thread. You either have a ways to go yet, or you're holding back information...gee what a surprise that would be huh? Why...then you would be doing what you're accusing me of. Say it ain't so.....we both know it's so.

Dan, I have the record of answering questions from others straight out. If you want to make an issue of who knows what, you're going to have to answer questions or ask intelligent ones that show you know what you're talking about.. the same questions I've asked point blank and you've been unable to answer. Remember though that you've made other comments that show what you know.

So let's not play silly games, please. If you want to play, you can't bet mystery money. The problem isn't me... I've been straight out with answers, drawings, and descriptions. The problem is that you want to pretend that you're holding four aces.

Back to those questions... they've built up quite a bit. No matter what you know, I know, or anybody knows, nobody knows it all. If the guys who don't have any ki or kokyu skills can wind up ultimately having to face it, the guy with a few ki and kokyu skills will also face someone who knows more. That guy in turn will face someone who knows more, and so on. Once people start playing like they already know everything (and this includes all of us), we immediately begin to set up our on embarrassment. My suggestion... quit playing martial role games and stick to the issue alone.

I believe that all of these methods were and are inspired of Nature. That is a source larger than any person, yet can help to explain why so many people from so many traditions from such distant lands have come up with the same 'stuff'. I don't really care 'who' or 'what' as it is most important to engage the 'how'. So, yeah, offer up your methods so that others may benefit from your practice.

Its just my opinoin, but I'd advise against throwing out the kind of examples you used Jennifer.
Sure some of the practices are inspired in part by "nature" and observing it.

However, there's a huge amount of analysis and observation thrown into the mix. To be blunt, anyone that I've met that's *really* good didn't get better by simply shutting their eyes, relax, wave their arms around and use self hypnosis to get better.

Constant analysis and thinking about how this stuff works is a requirement, just like any other subject.

Do you practice much the rowing exercices ( moving one point forward and throwing wrists forward/down, putting one point back and putting wrist back to side ).
I was told this is a misogi exercise good to get ride of excess tension in the shoulders, get ride of headache ( hang-over ), or develop better breathing.
This is the exercise you practice sometimes with someone holding both of your wrists, standing in front of you.

I`ll check the links you sent on fascia and tensegrity, thanks for your posts.

I do believe the rowing exercise has less to do with fascia development and more to do with the skills of rooting/grounding/body structure/intention dvelopment. But that's my baby-level understanding so I may be wrong.

Its just my opinoin, but I'd advise against throwing out the kind of examples you used Jennifer.
Sure some of the practices are inspired in part by "nature" and observing it.

However, there's a huge amount of analysis and observation thrown into the mix. To be blunt, anyone that I've met that's *really* good didn't get better by simply shutting their eyes, relax, wave their arms around and use self hypnosis to get better.

Constant analysis and thinking about how this stuff works is a requirement, just like any other subject.

If that's not what you meant I apologize though. I just had to throw that out there.

My two cents.

Apology accepted.
You can assume, if you must, that I am speaking of augmenting formal practice when I speak of such things. No extremes. No Either-Or. This is something that one can Add to their lives.
I agree with you that you can't just sit back and wait. And I agree that critical analysis is awesome. I also think that nature is a worthy subject for such intrigue, study and analysis.
I would appreciate people spending a little more time thinking about how these practices, like the one I wrote about above, are valuable and are a great subject for critical analysis. Such practices have been integrated into common medicine for the treatment of Cancer and Heart disease to powerful effect. I would like to hear more people speaking about the power of nature and science combined.
Besides, it's a hell of a good time.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere, but one of the exercises Tohei Sensei described in "Ki in Daily Life" is actually a breath/fascia exercise, although he doesn't say that clearly. Someone else posted the comment that Tohei attributed that particular exercise to Ueshiba Sensei.... that would make sense, since it is essentially a power-gung.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt people to look around. Ueshiba certainly did.... Aikido is founded on the Ki of Earth and the Ki of Heaven, the famous Yin-Yang dichotomy.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Mike --

Would the following be part of the second phase of that exercise?

I do believe I have a copy of "Ki in Daily Life" at home, but I have no idea what edition. That's on the short list of "books I now keep hidden because too many copies have disappeared and I'm tired of replacing it."