I use two Torii Mk III amps to drive my Analysis Audio "Epsilon" planar full ribbon speakers (@ 86db), which I purchased back in 2009 - 2010. I drive the ls. via a Marchand XM 44 active crossover. I had the two amps reworked by a specialised workshop in Germany, to ensure "identity" of the amps, since my Torii Mk III where purchased with some time lag and a couple of components inside the amps where different. So far so good.

Reading thru all the statements about the new Torii Mk IV and the Mystery amp, I feel beeing fooled by Decwares constant superlative marketing lyrics...

I recall:

Torii Mk II: "...the last amp you will ever want..."

Torii Mk III: "...the last amp you will ever want..."

Torii Mk IV comparision to the Mystery, I quote Decware (Steve):

"...The MK IV has gotten 20 to 30% better than the Mk III, which put it in danger of being better than the Mystery Amp. Of course this is a good thing... unless you're the Mystery Amp. So to find out where everything stands the two amps were compared side by side the other night..."

Since Decware talks figures here, what exactly does 20 to 30 % exactly mean? More power (no way), less hum? less distortion, better what?

I do NOT mind, upgrading my Mk III to a IV, or to a V, or VI at a given time, since the Torii Mk series is - in my oppinion a valuable amp concept. But this time I would like to know, why I should spend money, time and efforts to send the amps to Preoria, only to be told three years after purchase, that my stuff is outdated...

Well, I read the 20 to 30% to mean what Steve said...he increased the volume through the input stage of the new IV. From a couple of owners on the IV thread...they confirmed the claims of tighter more authoritive bass with more clarity/transparency through the highs & mids with the feedback "on" control with the input stage increase...I would surmise.

I had a Torii III for 3+ months. Now that it has the above with the IV....I ordered one a few days ago. So, 10 to 12 weeks out on this one for delivery.

I have a ZMA coming in 10-14 days.

So, yeah Decware uses a few superlative adjectives in their copy...but I could own: Audio Research, BAT, VTL and etc...but Decware makes better music. Cool, you're running a pair of strapped III's on your Epsilon's. I love Gallo's.....recently fell in love. I will be running a pair of 3.1's with my ZMA & IV. Probably pulling in a pair of Martin Logan's this year too...and a full range driver Audio Nirvana. I also own a SE84CS & Super Zen CKC. -Stone

Oh, no subjective statements? Really? Listening with Tube Amplification is all about the subjective ear to brain connection....not sand amp specs. You own Decware...you should understand this right?

Sounds like you need to get off the Merry Go Round. However, my CKC is better than my CS...by a little. So, I trust what I have read about my new IV coming. I bet I won't be disappointed in my ZMA for the right reasons and application I want it for (Gallo 3.1's). I think the fair price of upgrades Decware charges....like on the 3 to 4 is just that...fair.

However, be careful what you wish for without direct comparison. You might still prefer the lushness of your III's. However, for me, the new IV will be like my SE84CS or CKC, with more balls. For example, I would never part with my SE84CS stock for upgrades...it is a masterpiece in musicality (with my coveted original Svetlana NOS SV83 output Tubes). So, I bought the CKC separately. Furthermore, if you have not done so already, invest in room treatments and power.

As a very happy Torii III owner I understand what you mean. IMHO I feel my money will be better spent on room acoustics/dynamics and am experimenting with absorption and diffusion. I do not plan on upgrading to newer models because the Torii III is by far the best amp I have ever owned...sure the newer more advanced amps may be better but I don't have nearly the listening experience/knowledge of others on this forum and at this time don't feel it would be a feasible economic decision. Remember as well that Steve is running a business and needs to bring in cash and new ideas to broaden and strengthen the Decware brand. I feel Steve would be able to give you the best answers to your question. JDps. would love to see a picture of your system...the biamping idea with the tori's must sound and look awesome.

I hear you JD, as a happy owner of two Mk III and one Mk II Torii, and a modded C amp as well. But you're right, Steve has a business to run, and besides that. . . I think Steve can't STOP developing the amp circuits and finding new products. It's just his nature, it's his quest, it's what he does. The zen finds him as much as he finds the zen.

That said, I realize after digesting all the info, and while waiting to hear from Eric and the next few early adopters, that as much as the Torii is a magnificent beast that suits all my needs. . . the Mystery Amp is a real achievement. And just looking at those huge caps. . . well size matters maybe. I know that over the next year or two I'll be thinking about a Mystery amp and wondering if I can afford one. Just how I am. I can be totally content for a long spell and then I'll read all the praise and think "bet that sounds amazing."

Selfishly I wish that things would just stop and stay put for a while and not tempt me. I certainly know how Valentin feels. The great thing is that there is such a great line of amps, preamps, speakers and sources available from Decware, and new ones sneak out every now and then. Any one of them can be a draw for someone into the world of sonics we regulars on occasion take for granted.

It is a business, Steve needs to sell and has to market. Yet I believe he puts everything he has into this very successful family business. Kudos to him. I am very happy I bought his product and not another brand. I considered many but am very happy. Still miss the Rachel. Traded it in for the Torii MK3. Couldn't keep both, not that rich. Wife, 3 kids and a mortgage.

I did speak to Steve about upgrading my MK3 to MK4, yet he cautioned me against it. Maybe because I am still learning and gaining experience. He felt that I may not like the new sound and felt strongly and suggested that the MK3 can carry-its-own-weight. He mentioned to spend the money on a different source, cabling and tube rolling.

I listen to music digitally and am a bit frustrated with many of the CD's. Most sound good and some better, yet there are a lot that just sound horrible. I have a 30 year old inexpensive Technics turntable and many albums just sound great. So as another source, I am going to upgrade my turntable to a Music Hall 5.1 or Rega RP3. Probably the Music Hall because explaining why we should spend a bit more on the Rega is like...well you know. Tough sell with my wife. Oh well!

You have to think about it from his point of view, I'm sure that every week, if not every day, someone is saying "so, really, how much better is the XXX vs the YYY?".(I know I have asked him!) After a while, you have to rock back on your heels and voice what your gut says - it's not something 100% quantifiable. It's more like saying, "I like this shade of blue on my car 25% more than I like that shade of blue on the other car" - how exactly can you quantify that without bringing in subjectives?

The nice thing is, Steve's gut is pretty well calibrated; if he shrugs and gives it a "meh", then it's probably not that different or important. But if he starts throwing around big percentages, then Wow, somethings changed. I've said before, I'm a big skeptic, I listen to what Steve says, but I let the gear prove it to me. When I listened to the Mystery amp, Steve was actually trying to talk me down to the Mark IV, reminding me that the Mystery is a big price jump up, and only a few percent better, but with more balls (or something along those lines). But when I gave the two amps a listen, I'm like, yes, you're right, but that extra few percent is absolutely worth the added expense! He grinned at me and said something along the lines of that he knew that was going to happen, and just wanted me to find that out for myself.

So even with Steve trying to direct me to an amp more in my budget, I did still hear that few percent difference, and I still chose what *I* thought was the better amp...the Mystery proved itself to me.

And there is no way in hell I could explain why I picked the Mystery amp, without being Subjective. Sorry, it's just not possible. This shade of blue pleases me *more* than that shade of blue. About 10-15% more I think. LOL

From a couple of owners on the IV thread...they confirmed the claims of tighter more authoritive bass with more clarity/transparency through the highs & mids with the feedback "on" control with the input stage increase...I would surmise.

I had a Torii III for 3+ months. Now that it has the above with the IV....I ordered one a few days ago. So, 10 to 12 weeks out on this one for delivery.

PS-plus I love the fact that tgarden is running his big Legacy Speaks. Like me, another person who knows you don't need 95db to 104db SPL @1watt/1meter Speakers to immensely enjoy Decware Amplifiers!

However, as I stated to Maddog, in the Mystery Amp Thread...I am seriously considering a pair of Audio Nirvana's....including having boxes made/installed and shipped to me. Spend a year with them with my four Decware Amps....and my Zen Styx/silver banana speaker wire....having both world's/and form my own conclusions!

I would imagine that this would be a similar change to running a CSP2/CSP2+/CSP3 or ZStage into the Torii Mk II or Mk III makes (with each of these adding other benefits such as bias mode, more inputs, input and output gain trimming--which by the way is huge).

Cool. In my shoes, I would miss the flexibiity of the Mk III model I think, and I'm already the proud owner of a CSP2 and three CSP2+ -- these preamps are just as important as the amps in my system (in my opinion). Were I to make a change, it would be towards the Mystery Amp or the Monos, not to a Mk IV. (If I didn't have CSP2+s in the system my target might be different.)

One other point I'd like to make about the Decware lineup, and I heard this directly from Steve after thinking it myself.

His lineup isn't easy to pick from. He's got all these pieces of hardware that are all of such a high caliber, that it's very small differences that set them apart. Like the grunt and harmonics in the Mystery Amp over the Mk IV.

I liken it to a drag car; It takes $80k to build a drag car to do an 8 second quarter mile. It takes another $80k from that point to get to 7.5 second quarter mile. At the level Steve's amps are, it takes a big change (which unfortunately costs) to get a few percent better. So again, when he starts talking about %-difference in the double digits, he has my attention!

Eric....it's very small differences that set them apart (the Amps). Agreed.

Having listened to my SE84CS every other day for the last 13 years (and participating on this Forum-for the last 13 years as well) and the addition of my Super Zen CKC, 14 months ago....plus going to Decfest in 2005 & 2008...I know what you mean.

I am still pissed you got the first one >:(. But, I will just have to get over it.

I would not be surprised 18 months or 24 months from now my ZMA ends up in Living Room System, my Torii IV ends up in my bedroom System. I still like my SE84CS in my Listening Room at a mere 76 to 82db SPL with continued great fidelity.

Last but not least, my Super Zen CKC in my garage system with my Klipsch RF-7 II's! Time will tell.............. . -S

I could not tell you what to do, I can only share my experience and opinion, which is all any of can do. I have listened to my mk.III and a IV - side-by-side, matched volume. The IV is definitely "different" sounding. "Better" is a judgment only you can make for yourself, with hearing being an individual perception - which it is. And dependent on your room, speakers and other components no one can predict which you may prefer. I for one prefer the sound of the III with Jupiter caps installed driving speakers that are similar in design to the Decware HRT’s. I also find the "adjustment range" of its controls indispensable. The treble control on the IV barely made a detectable difference on any of the Decware speakers I listened to it driving at the Zenfest.

I'm sure you will get lots of opinions about how the IV is "better" than the III. I know there are many of us who disagree and prefer the III. Nobody can make this assessment for you. I have found that some tube rolling can take the III into the sonic territory that the IV occupies, if that is the sound you prefer..... YMMV.

If you like your III's - just be happy. If your curiosity overcomes you, order a IV and take advantage of the 30 day trial... I would not recommend jumping on the IV bandwagon blindly, without hearing it in your own system and your own room first. But this goes for “any” component.. not just Decware amps.

I think there are a couple of forum members who actually own mk. III’s and are about to get or just got mk. IV’s – perhaps they can give their assessment of the difference in the sound between the two.

Yes, even if I bought the Mystery Amp in the future, I would keep my first Torii Mk III, it's an amazing amp, so well-seasoned and deep in sound. And it has flexibliity that I feel I must have.

Upgrading to the Mk IV makes no sense to me, there is less flexibility and a similar sound. The ZMA would be the obvious upgrade for me. I'll be reading all the impressions of the ZMA to be sure, and I know how I am, I'll be wondering whether the amp WOULD bring improvement to my system. But I wouldn't buy one unless I could have the treble cut circuit installed, I've queried Steve about that, whether that circuit could be added to the ZMA. And I would have the problem of only one input. The real solution for me is a ZMA and an Ultra. That's a ten grand solution! And I'm not sure if the Ultra can have the Jupiter caps added as one of my CSP2+ have (and are the better for it). So that would be another additional cost IF they can be.

As I am giving away all my work to my parents for free and have a meager retirement income coming in, I'd have to fund such purchases selling stereo, guitars, basses and guitar amps to generate a lot of the cost. I could do that, and might, and would if I felt that there was a clear cut improvement for the system. But. . .that's hard to figure out without an in-home audition to be honest. I would love to support the company with several top of the line purchases. But I may not be able to, and if I could I may not be able to justify it financially.

So, I think that the Mk IIIs I have will be my amps for a while, and I await all the impressions from "early adopters."

keeping my III too. kt66 tubes, upgraded rectifiers will make it sound like a different amp. gutsy and powerful, like a great ultralinear or Mk iv?. just don't throw away your el34's for when you want to mellow back out with that SET sound. 2 amps for the price of one, hard to beat.

treble control +5. just brought home some silver speaker wires to test drive. had to cut that control immediately. the effect was just right once dialed in. i have the option of using the silver cable with its greater detailing and air without burning my ears.

my Torii III is only the second tube amp I have ever actually owned... a Decware SE34i was the first tube amp I bought. I just started tube rolling with the Torii back around the 1st of Nov. I kinda went knuts on eBay...a whole crate of tubes to futz around with now - OMG... "the last amp you will ever want".... I'm believing it. I can make this thing sound any freaking way I choose! I don't have any of the stock tubes in it now, and it just keeps getting better. The only reason I could ever imagine parting with it, is if I needed more power - like the ZMA... but the Torii's 25 watts is more than enough for the speakers I have it paired with now - party levels with power to spare. Performers right there in front of me... satisfaction attained... stick me with a fork - I'm done....!!!

I think in the case of the Torii Mk III you may well be right Eric, the combination of its flexibility and it's useable power make it fit so many systems. What I like most about it is that one can set it so that all your music sounds so. . .musical is probably the best word. And if you want to explore the very edges of high fidelity on the great recordings you can drive yourself mad rolling tubes or experimenting with cabling or isoltation components, etc. I have fits and spells of both these types of stereo listening and the Mk III is so satisfying to both these selves.

You know, we hardly ever hear anything about the earlier preamps from Decware; it would be interesting to know how many ZPres etc. were sold. I jumped in with the CSP2 and even so in one of the old black chassis as I then was running SE34 monoblocks Steve no longer makes and I wanted the preamp to match. I still have that preamp in use in my father's system and I LOVE it, it's so direct and honeset and will soar in the sky or wallow in the mud. It is not quite as flexible as the CSP2+ that I have, but it's SO seasoned and always improves what I connect it to. I love my CSP2+s as well, I have three of them so I guess I must. The newest, with the Jupiter caps installed, is just so transparent and dynamic, it's the perfect partner for my Mk III. I have it connected to my PS Audio DAC Mk II and my ZP3. The other CSP2+ in the main system is connected to the other hi-res sources, my SACD player and my Blu-reay player. One day I'll probably have Jupiter caps installed in it as well.

So for me. . . I'd have to say that the newest CS2+ with the Jupiters is the one I love the most, with a huge sentimental feeling swirling around my trusty old CSP2. I think from what I see in the forum the CSP2+ preamp is the one most owned and talked about on the forum.

In response to LR's question, my experience with the CSP2+ and CSP3 is that system synergy is really essential.

The CSP3 introduced a sonic veil to my Torii MK4 which I found disagreeable.On the other hand, the CSP3 increased the sonics tremendously without any detectable sonic veil when paired with my Yarland tube amp.

I think it would depend on the source and amp and system etc. I can speak for myself: I have been quite happy without a preamp, and there are several preamps that I have tried that have not made an improvement and or got in the way, but the CSP2 and CSP2+s that I have really do help the sound for me, adding a musicality and dynamics. The PWD Mk II that I use mostly is fine without a preamp, but the CSP2+ that I use adds a bit more ease and assuages a bit of detail-laden clinicalness. Now I'm NOT a detail hound and I like a nice musicality for a variety of source material. A detail nut may think just the opposite that I do.

I never gave a second thought when ordering Rachaels.No volume controls just the CSP2+ to control them.If I were the owner of another Decware amp eg torii ( or any int amp)and had the CSP as well then I wouldn`t be able to notthink should I bypass the volume pot/s on the main amp.I probably wouldn`t but you can see the case for.Regardless, the CSP is synergistic with the range.

( no doubt bypassing pots isn`t as easy as I make out, so..... ) Second thought...having the volume pots wide open would amount to the same thing. What you call `riding the gain` I think.

Hey Marky. Riding the gain to me is a way to alter the tone between being amp dominant or pre dominant and any variation in between. Keeping the volume more or less the same (by ear), generally, if you ride up the pre and down the amp, you will add weight and body. If you ride up the amp, while riding down on the pre, you will lean things down a bit.

I really like this tool since so many recording are a little (or a lot) lean, and many others are too dense.

Will, Good point on over driving or under driving valve amps. Very similar with guitar tube amps. I wish I had that flexibility with my amp set up but unfortunately I don't. My amp has no volume control just preamp volume control. Thank goodness the CSP3 has input and output pots they do allow me to tweak the sound a bit through the preamp and also have the master volume on it to work with for tweaking the two input and outputs. Either drive the front hard or you can jam the output side and ride the volume in between makes for some fun. Allows for a lot of tonal flexibility.

Marky, I do adjust once in a while depending on the recording. Not all of the time but if I will be planning on a longer enjoyable listening session I may role the tubes to fit the music a little better or even get into adjusting the input and outputs on the CSP3 to help tweak the tone slightly. Since I have no eq or any other tone controls I just use the pre-amp and tube rolling to adjust things tonally as much as possible if needed. The benefit with tubes are you use the gain to develop distortion inherent in the tubes when over driven I know for some this is a nasty thing to bring up but I will say for most hard core electric guitar players it is much preferred over solid state distortion. Tubes are smooth and syrupy and sound natural in comparison to solid state no digital hiss or edgy tones from tubes. You can also do as Will mentioned is to soften and lay back the sound tonally a bit and push volume a bit harder for another different adjustment in your sound. I believe overall that is what I love about tubes you have a chance to personalize the sound you hear a bit at least tweak it to taste. Some recordings are just impossible throw those on a killer solid state set up and they will more than likely kick as&@ and you'll love it. Anyway tubes are fun but all systems do have there limits that's why some of us need to have more than one type of system. I really do think its to cover the what else can I do syndrome that some of us carry with us through life. Sometimes its a heavy burden to carry!

Just remember its a burden not a sickness at least that is what I keep telling myself.

I have not had a chance to play with this weight and body or leaning thing with the CSP3 controls, but riding the volumes between it and amp, or the Zstage and amp do have this effect. My CSP3 was serial #3 and needed a tweak to make it work with more tube types in the output position...something that later pres have. Anyway, it is burning in the new caps I had put in while in the shop, in my 2nd system, so I have not had a chance to explore it fully like I will.

On the other hand, in the context of this thread, I am spending a lot of time with the MKiV, and checking in on the MKIII in the workshop regularly also. The MKIV is getting to a nice place of burnin, maybe 350-375 hours, and sounding amazing. I will comment more fully on the comparison once I feel I have a clear handle on the new amp, after it is "in the body" like my MKIII is, but I can say this: It is a great amp; it is family for sure with the MKIII, but also a different amp; it is very refined and sophisticated and working really well with several power tubes....truly making it like several amps (not hyperbole, I have used cryo'd Mullard EL34 reissues, Psvane 5881s, and cryo'd Tungsol KT66s); being a later version of the MKIII, and since we know and trust Steve's ears and designs, it is naturally a notable step from the MKIII. I think I can say it does most things audio in a bit more refined/deeper way (and what most would consider better) ....more refined detail micro and macro but still very smooth, refined warmth, better vibration control, better bass control, more refined dynamics micro and macro making it faster....but more on this later.

Based upon these observations, I would agree with Steve on the 20-30% thing. But at the same time, I LOVE the MKIII....a different signature and a truly great amp also. It is so good that though the refinements on the MKIV are things I really like, I really like the slightly wilder nature of the MKIII also.

So the short answer in my opinion for Val is this: If you love the Toriis in your setting, you are living with a great pair of amps, especially if you have a CSP in front!!!

And it is subjective as to whether one likes the MKIV better or not, but it does have a number of improvements, seemingly in pretty much all areas that audio heads tend to like. I will comment more fully on the details of these observations in a week or two.