The Early Church Fathers are almost unanimous in the assertion that the birth was painless and had no loss of Mary's virginal integrity during the birth. In other words, her Hymen didn't break. St. Augustine said "Jesus passed through the womb of Mary as a ray of sun passes through glass"....This was confirmed by Pope Paul IV and many others before and after. If Jesus emerged from a sealed tomb, and passed through closed doors, surely he could pass through Mary's womb without breaking her hymen and causing her pain.

Seasonally timely article ~ the HIndus came up with the same solution to unaddressed question regarding Vishnu's birth as a human several times. (they have this happen 3 times I believe, so they have three different says of maintaining the deity of the messiah while turning him into a human) ~ but it's possible divine beings actually foretold in ancient prophecies actually experience life the same way as other humans.

Not that I was there, but focusing on magic surrounding Jesus earliest days of life tends toward an adoption of the monophysite viewpoint ~ which we saw discussed in a different thread the other day.

So, back to a question I had, how far back were those early church fathers? Was it way back before development of the fullblown Trinitarian viewpoint, or after that, and are we speaking of Western Christianity or Coptic Christianity?

Bible says she was a good wife to Joseph in all ways. To me that means having sex with him. Many protestants believe that James was also her son—Father was Joseph this time. There were more as well. I have no problem with Mary being a good wife and mother—She is idealized for this. The Catholics must create the Perpetual Virginity myth to keep her as a demi goddess—to attract Romans and Greeks with a fertility symbol/Woman. They seem to forget the important thing is the Message of Jesus! The wonders are not the main point—they are just confirmations of his message and divinity.

"The idea that Mary had other children first surfaced from a guy named Helvidius around 380 A.D. "

Actually it started after her second child. GOD said go out upon the earth and multiply. She would be in non-compliance with Gods command and wishes. Catholics so much wish for a goddess to pray to that they are willing to go to extreme lengths to keep this tired old un-truth alive.

Sad that this argument is coming up again. Its as bad as when those that don't believe in Jesus argue about the difference between the Hebrew words almah (from Isaiah 7:14 particularly) and bathulah (elsewhere in the OT), which are both translated virgin in Christian versions of the Bible; some versions of the Old Testament translate almah as young woman, but that would not be a miraculous sign if it were merely a married young woman giving birth.

The argument over the difference between Greek adelphos and Hebrew/Aramaic ach is popping up again here. Both words can mean brother, but only adelphos can strictly mean brother (sibling, from same parents) whereas ach can mean a cousin or other extended family member. Problem is, the writers of the Gospels chose adelphos instead of syngenes (the latter being the Greek word for cousin) and it would be presumptuous to regard it as a mistranslation from Aramaic since that is not the language the NT was written in.

Catholics get passionate about the perpetual virginity doctrine, so I wont prod on that score.

It’s not limited to the Catholic Church—it is a belief among the Eastern Orthodox and other eastern Christian churches, and was held by many of the early Church Fathers (although not by all) and by some of the Protestant Reformers such as Luther and Zwingli. See the Wikipedia article on “Perpetual virginity of Mary” for numerous examples.

Matthew 1:20-25 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

23 Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel

(which means, God with us). 24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Doesn't get more explicit than that. Joseph had sex with Mary AFTER Jesus' birth, just like any normal married couple.

Matthew 12:46-50 46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. 48 But he replied to the man who told him, Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

Matthew 13:55-5855 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things? 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household. 58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him.

Galatians 1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.

18
posted on 12/09/2012 3:06:51 PM PST
by metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

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