Tat'dGreaser:I don't think there is enough evidence to clearly show Zimmerman instigated the fight. All that matters is he was being attacked and defended himself.

Did he instigate it? Probably. Was he getting his butt kicked? Yes. Guns are the great equalizer, that's why they're perfect for self defense. All that will be be proven is he feared for his life and used his gun.

There is a very narrow window for legally shooting someone. Zimmerman was not dragged out of his vehicle by Trayvon while waiting for the police. Nor was he preventing Trayvon from committing a violent crime, or in fact ANY crime. Zimmerman pursued his victim and then shot him when he got the fight he was looking for. It may not be straight up murder, but a civilized society can't tolerate vigilantes like this moron trying to play cop. And no responsible gun owner, myself included, should be throwing their lot in with this a-hole.

Ow! That was my feelings!:So, what are the Vegas odds of a murder2 conviction? 10-1? 50-1? Murder 2 is a bridge too far and he is gonna walk because Prosecutors, under politicalracial pressure, overcharged him.

Tat'dGreaser:DoomPaul: Less than stellar decisions were made by Zimmerman, but it's not illegal to follow someone (in this instance) and the 911 operator has no legal authority to give an order so he didn't break the law. I think he'll walk, second degree murder is a bridge too far.

Florida DA seem to have a real problem with trying to convict with a way too high of a charge with little to no evidence. Casey Anthony for instance. Oh she had something to do with her kid dying, no question, but she probably didn't plan it.

Ya, I work in Downtown Orlando near the courthouse so I was near that clown show far too often. I guess the prosecutors really love trying to make a name for themselves with overcharging on popular cases. One of the prosecutors ended up using the case to run for state attorney in my district and won.

That is so wrong, and I'm boggled that you can say that and actually believe it. There is absolutely no proof that Zimmerman ever followed Trayvon after reporting that he had lost sight of him. All we know is that around 6 minutes after Zimmerman hung up the phone, they ended up in a confrontation in the same area that Zimmerman was while on the phone.

Mugato:Popcorn Johnny: Let me guess, you think Zimmerman was obligated to wait until he suffered a skull fracture before defending himself, right?

No, he was obligated to stay in the car like he was told to instead of stalking the kid for no reason.

First, he was "told" by a dispatcher, who is not a cop, they are civilians, and second, he wasn't "told" (ordered), what was said was 'We don't need you to do that' which is more of a suggestion, and not a command.

But keep letting the media distort the story for you. The "told not to follow" line that gets repeated ad nauseum is one of the biggest lies of this whole trial.

Tat'dGreaser:Kome: Almost by definition it isn't, unless the other person also has a gun.

Well if you're 5'5" 98lbs being attacked by a 6'6" 230lbs attacker, you're now sort of equal.

No. Guns are great for self-defense because they turn the situation from imbalanced against your favor to imbalanced in your favor; regardless of a large number of variables (though not all variables; for example close proximity can sometimes trump trying to pull the weapon out and take aim). It's a minor point, but I have noticed a trend lately in a few contexts where people use the word incorrectly. It's mildly irritating to me, as it's being used to mean the antithesis of what it actually means.

I'm not saying your other points are valid or invalid, I was just pointing out that you used a word incorrectly such that it detracts from the very point you were trying to make.

shower_in_my_socks:There is a very narrow window for legally shooting someone. Zimmerman was not dragged out of his vehicle by Trayvon while waiting for the police. Nor was he preventing Trayvon from committing a violent crime, or in fact ANY crime.

Well actually the window is pretty farking big, especially in Florida. A person can use deadly force to protect themselves from great bodily harm, even if they're the aggressor.

Yes, a broken nose and bleeding wounds to the back of the head are "superficial". Let me guess, you think Zimmerman was obligated to wait until he suffered a skull fracture before defending himself, right?

gimmegimme:Popcorn Johnny: TuteTibiImperes: What seems more likely - that he just decided to chill out on the sidewalk or that he was still searching for Martin?

I'm not saying that he didn't continue looking around the area for Trayvon. Seems like a bit of a coincidence that the altercation took place in pretty much the same spot Zimmerman was when he finished his call to police, but it could have happened. Even if he lingered in the area looking for Trayvon, what does that mean when it comes to his claim that Trayvon attacked him and that he was in fear for his life when he took out his gun and fired?

I dunno. Zimmerman has a documented history of violence and a documented history of lying to the court; he's not very trustworthy.

And Martin was a teenager. They're not known for great decision making. That doesn't mean Zimmerman is guilty.

/I also think the Special Prosecutor wouldn't have brought charges if she didn't have the evidence. She has a brilliant reputation and one of the highest conviction rate among her peers. She doesn't have a reputation for bringing charges that she can't prove in court.

shower_in_my_socks:There is a very narrow window for legally shooting someone. Zimmerman was not dragged out of his vehicle by Trayvon while waiting for the police. Nor was he preventing Trayvon from committing a violent crime, or in fact ANY crime. Zimmerman pursued his victim and then shot him when he got the fight he was looking for. It may not be straight up murder, but a civilized society can't tolerate vigilantes like this moron trying to play cop. And no responsible gun owner, myself included, should be throwing their lot in with this a-hole.

I'm speaking purely about this case. I believe Zimmerman should NOT have pursued Martin. Regarding this case though, I do not believe they will be able to prove that Zimmerman clearly instigated the end fight where Martin was shot. All that can be proven is Zimmerman was being attacked and shot Martin, that's it.

There was a case up in Rochester, NY where a black guy shot a white kid outside of his home. That kid and his friends were breaking into cars, he went out to confront them and the kid charged him. The debate was that he shouldn't have gone out there to begin with. He ended up being cleared of all charges because the cops moved the body since the position clearly showed the kid charged the guy. Self defense, clear cut.

Kyosuke:TuteTibiImperes: Should Zimmerman have even been following him to get into that position?Under the law it seems like the shooting was justified if he was being attacked. However, there could be a case made that it was Zimmerman's own negligence that put him in a position where he could be attacked in the first place. If he initiated the encounter with Trayvon, criminally negligent manslaughter should be on the table.

It's obvious to me, based upon the 911 call and Zimmerman's own wannabe cop backgroundbits and pieces of information spoon-fed by the media rather than factual information, that Zimmerman was the aggressor in the incident. As such he wasn't neither standing his ground nor defending others when he fired his weapon.

I hope it's also obvious to the jury by the time they go into deliberations.

FTFY.

For the rest of you arguing his guilt/innocence, take it from someone who's had to deal with daily Casey Anthony and now George Zimmerman updates every time they take a crap. Both people were tried in the court of public opinion and judged guilty before ever having a single day in court. And y'know what it accomplished? Not a damn thing. So get off your high and mighty horses. Wait until the factual information comes out at the trial, THEN launch into vitriolic-laced threads.

/Lives in central Florida, though seriously considering moving out of state just to get away from the constant updates.//Went on vacation and still saw this as news on both Kentucky and Michigan news stations.///Has to drive by the exit for the court house on the way to work, which sucks given the media storm.////Slashies!

For what it's worth, here's what I think happened. It is consistent with all the known facts, AND most if not all of Zimmerman's statements (which, because he's an interested party, cannot be relied upon).

Zimmermen got out of his car to follow Trayvon. Trayvon rounds a corner and hides. Zimmerman rounds the corner, and walks past the hiding Trayvon. He agrees to discontinue pursuit, hangs up with the police, and turns to start walking back. Trayvon sees Zimmerman suddenly turn around and start walking back in his direction, and assumes he's been found (or is about to be). He confronts Zimmerman. Zimmerman pulls his gun. Trayvon, seeing the gun, jumps Zimmerman and attempts to neutralize the threat (ie: pounds Zimmerman's head into the ground to knock him unconscious. Which is the only real way to neutralize a man with a gun, other than take the gun away, which Zimmerman also says Trayvon attempted.) Zimmermen shoots Trayvon.

Tat'dGreaser:shower_in_my_socks: There is a very narrow window for legally shooting someone. Zimmerman was not dragged out of his vehicle by Trayvon while waiting for the police. Nor was he preventing Trayvon from committing a violent crime, or in fact ANY crime. Zimmerman pursued his victim and then shot him when he got the fight he was looking for. It may not be straight up murder, but a civilized society can't tolerate vigilantes like this moron trying to play cop. And no responsible gun owner, myself included, should be throwing their lot in with this a-hole.

I'm speaking purely about this case. I believe Zimmerman should NOT have pursued Martin. Regarding this case though, I do not believe they will be able to prove that Zimmerman clearly instigated the end fight where Martin was shot. All that can be proven is Zimmerman was being attacked and shot Martin, that's it.

There was a case up in Rochester, NY where a black guy shot a white kid outside of his home. That kid and his friends were breaking into cars, he went out to confront them and the kid charged him. The debate was that he shouldn't have gone out there to begin with. He ended up being cleared of all charges because the cops moved the body since the position clearly showed the kid charged the guy. Self defense, clear cut.

Sounds like the shooter in that case wasn't playing pretend cowboy cop.

Livingroom:gimmegimme: Popcorn Johnny: gimmegimme: Friend, a random citizen took it upon himself to follow a kid around in armed pursuit in a vehicle and then on foot. The target didn't know if he was going to be raped or kidnapped or stabbed or shot in the chest from a few inches away.

A concerned citizen, who happened to be armed, reported a suspicious person to the police and then attempted to regain sight of that person after they fled. The suspicious person then launched a violent assault on the citizen, leading the concerned citizen to pull their legally carried firearm and defend them self from great bodily harm or possibly death.

I ask out of genuine curiosity. What would be your reaction if, the next time you're walking through your neighborhood, you notice someone rolling alongside you in a car and then they begin to follow you on foot?

it wouldnt be to turn around and beat the hell out of my follower, thats for damn sure.

Livingroom:gimmegimme: Popcorn Johnny: gimmegimme: Compared to a gunshot wound to the chest?

Yes.

Maybe Zimmy shouldn't have started a fight he couldn't finish...

Hey look, the people that know absolutely nothing about the case are here to make assumptions.

Friend, a random citizen took it upon himself to follow a kid around in armed pursuit in a vehicle and then on foot. The target didn't know if he was going to be raped or kidnapped or stabbed or shot in the chest from a few inches away.

But I suppose you wouldn't consider it starting a fight if someone did the same thing to you.

no, i wouldnt be wearing a goddamn hoody slinking through a rich neighbourhood at night IN THE SUMMER. that spells disaster, always has, always will.

Summer comes really early in Florida now a days. (02-28-2012)

/pondering whether your "slinking" description is part of you sarcastic intent//decided I don't care as I have been turned off by people trying to make light of a questionable shooting that even the cops didn't care about until the media got involved///yeah, yeah I know welcome to Fark

DoomPaul:Tat'dGreaser: DoomPaul: Less than stellar decisions were made by Zimmerman, but it's not illegal to follow someone (in this instance) and the 911 operator has no legal authority to give an order so he didn't break the law. I think he'll walk, second degree murder is a bridge too far.

Florida DA seem to have a real problem with trying to convict with a way too high of a charge with little to no evidence. Casey Anthony for instance. Oh she had something to do with her kid dying, no question, but she probably didn't plan it.

Ya, I work in Downtown Orlando near the courthouse so I was near that clown show far too often. I guess the prosecutors really love trying to make a name for themselves with overcharging on popular cases. One of the prosecutors ended up using the case to run for state attorney in my district and won.

Trayvon knew Zimmerman was on the phone snitching on his prowling....2nd link.

And all of that is relevant to what happened the night he got killed how?

Shows Trayvon had a habit of starting fights with people.

Why would he not start a fight with Zimmerman?

Zimmerman had fights with people too. So should that be considered as well?

Sure...should a backpack containing jewelry of questionable ownership and burglary tools be included?

Were they found the night it got shot?

To be honest, neither of their past records in relevant in this case. Trayvon could be Bart Simpson hopped up on Steroids and Cocaine for all I care, but if he wasn't doing anything illegal that night, that still doesn't justify him getting killed.

Bontesla:I also think the Special Prosecutor wouldn't have brought charges if she didn't have the evidence. She has a brilliant reputation and one of the highest conviction rate among her peers. She doesn't have a reputation for bringing charges that she can't prove in court.

We know what the evidence is, there isn't any. Hell, in the probable cause hearing, they were forced to admit to having no proof of most of the points in their probable cause affidavit.

She has a reputation for bringing charges on everything, including murder charges against a 12 year old that accidentally killed their brother. Think about it, why wouldn't she bring charges? She solidifies her reputation of being tough on crime and can throw her hands up and blame the legal system when she loses the case.

Some legal experts have even suggested that she should face sanctions for bringing charges in this case, given the lack of evidence.

I have to say as a tangential comment that these threads really bum me out in some ways. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specific, even the folks I've been talking to in the thread, but it really is undeniable that there is some clear and sad racism in the way people see this case.

I would go into specifics, but that would indicate I'm placing specific blame.

It's curious that I've seen virtually nothing written about the fact the Martin had years of football training in his past. Not only has it been documented that he was into a culture of orchestrated fight club type fighting scenes, but his football training. i.e., violent aggression training and toughening process for full contact interaction with other large and powerful young adults, also is a major factor in understanding his willingness to initial a violent confrontation. Don't most of you understand just how completely football drilling and training separates out athletes (especially full-contact sport athletes) from the general public? Among other things, Martin has given the youth football programs a black eye by grossly abusing and misusing his skills, power, and strength, God Rest His Soul and may he rest in peace.

Zimmerman? Well, he's a fat and excitable young man; much fatter now that the stress factors in his life are through the roof. He had no chance in a fight with Martin. He was screaming on that tape. Any fool can hear it. He most likely WOULD have died had he not shot Martin.

Trayvon knew Zimmerman was on the phone snitching on his prowling....2nd link.

And all of that is relevant to what happened the night he got killed how?

Shows Trayvon had a habit of starting fights with people.

Why would he not start a fight with Zimmerman?

Zimmerman had fights with people too. So should that be considered as well?

Sure...should a backpack containing jewelry of questionable ownership and burglary tools be included?

Were they found the night it got shot?

To be honest, neither of their past records in relevant in this case. Trayvon could be Bart Simpson hopped up on Steroids and Cocaine for all I care, but if he wasn't doing anything illegal that night, that still doesn't justify him getting killed.

So when past history points to Trayvon possibly burglaring things and carrying the tools of the trade you want to fold and say the past doesn't matter....What a stand up guy you are.

The case stinks to high heaven, but all the actual evidence favors Zimmerman.

Tat'dGreaser:gimmegimme: Sounds like the shooter in that case wasn't playing pretend cowboy cop.

Actually it was the exact same situation. 911 told him not to go out there but he did. Kid (who was built like a linebacker) charged him and he defended himself.

No, it's totally different. The homeowner wasn't just coincidentally armed, apparently, and wasn't on armed patrol. He was defending his property. Not only that, he had a real reason to be scared of those teens (based upon the facts you've given). They were breaking into cars, being noisy, etc. Martin was walking home and talking on his cell phone.

Popcorn Johnny:Garble: It is so beyond pathetic and sad that you look at this case in this way.What's pathetic is that people like you want to send a person to prison based on speculation. It's pretty much the most disgusting thing I can imagine.

I think a society where stalking and shooting someone is legal so long as you make sure your victim isn't alive to tell his side is even more disgusting.

Mrtraveler01:but if he wasn't doing anything illegal that night, that still doesn't justify him getting killed.

Well we know as a matter of fact he was doing something illegal. He was assaulting somebody.

Oh I know, you're going to come back with "he was standing his ground", right?

Lets go with that then. Trayvon was standing his ground and beating up Zimmerman. You do realize that Florida law allows Zimmerman to use deadly force to protect himself at that point, even if he was the aggressor, right?

lantawa:It's curious that I've seen virtually nothing written about the fact the Martin had years of football training in his past. Not only has it been documented that he was into a culture of orchestrated fight club type fighting scenes, but his football training. i.e., violent aggression training and toughening process for full contact interaction with other large and powerful young adults, also is a major factor in understanding his willingness to initial a violent confrontation. Don't most of you understand just how completely football drilling and training separates out athletes (especially full-contact sport athletes) from the general public? Among other things, Martin has given the youth football programs a black eye by grossly abusing and misusing his skills, power, and strength, God Rest His Soul and may he rest in peace.

Zimmerman? Well, he's a fat and excitable young man; much fatter now that the stress factors in his life are through the roof. He had no chance in a fight with Martin. He was screaming on that tape. Any fool can hear it. He most likely WOULD have died had he not shot Martin.

If he knew that he was physically unable to perform his duties as police officer, maybe he should have resigned from the force.