You are incorrect. It gives an advantage to the newbies by letting them catch up to us faster so that they don't feel weak and overpowered by the veteran players.

They don't catch up faster. Partly because GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ doesn't apply to the EVE skill system and partly because the older players train at the same increased speed. If anything, the older players train faster since they can optimise their attributes to a far higher degree and get more out of that increase.

Oh andGÇª

Quote:

The Devs would be total idiots not to look into this issue.

They did. It has since been removed, having been replaced of sorts with age-imited implants (which, btw, benefit older players more).GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥

Yes the training is in fact too slow. It is unfair to new players who ask for a level playing field. Those who are against lowering the training time are just Cowards and A-Holes who like to pick on lesser skilled newbies. I have been playing this game for a decade and know the attitude and nature of most EVE players and it isn't good. In the end it is the current attitude towards change that hurts this game. The Devs would be total idiots not to look into this issue.

Why should they have a level playing field? Coming into a competitive game and expecting a level playing field is like expecting to beat Garry Kasparov at chess when you only learnt how to Castle yesterday.

Posted - 2014.03.04 08:40:00 -
[63] - Quote
What I would like is that learning a high rank (12-16) skills would have more 'oompfh' when you finally get that racial carrier lvl V after 38days then just adding a few percent of stats and a filled up certificate but then again it risks that we'd be back in 'skill x at least lvl V or bust' situation.

- The real-time training concept is great- The 'order of magnitude' of the current training time feels right too. It gives you time to learn to fly stuff and makes that new ship class that you've waited weeks/months to get into all the more rewarding. It also gives progression in EVE that 'epic' pace that is pretty cool.

I occasionally think that the rank system stretches things too much - although primarily when I was doing time sink skills (Advanced Spaceship Command for example).The base time is, in my opinion, actually too short. To get a rank 1 skill from skillbook to V is less than four days (with a peak remap and implants) - I would support stretching that to seven, a week to fully develop a skill seems about right.

To make it fair for everybody, all active accounts would receive an SP bonus of exactly ( 1 / 0.95-0.9 -1 = ) 5.26%-11.11% of their current SP.

Why not, because CCP are clueless about new players. Until you get to 2-3 mil SP the the training rate should be accelerated to 500-1000% then they can reduces it gradually to current levels when you get to 5-6 mil SP. The training is filled with all kind of bottlenecks that keeps basically at the same level for weeks or even months.

Some player asked on the forum how to set a training plan because he was away for a month. Somebody answered him to put in queue a skill that takes a month to train. A month!!!!!

Then again fixing this horrid training mechanic would impact their pay2win model were new characters are trained and sold more or less for real money.

Shorter train time would mean more players and they don't really want more players.

[quote=Gully Alex Foyle]things too much - although primarily when I was doing time sink skills (Advanced Spaceship Command for example).The base time is, in my opinion, actually too short. To get a rank 1 skill from skillbook to V is less than four days (with a peak remap and implants) - I would support stretching that to seven, a week to fully develop a skill seems about right.

Coming from a player almost 10 years in the game is no surprise.

Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll have a similar opinion. That is if no other company takes the good ideas from Eve and makes a game that would get the Eve players base.

Why not, because CCP are clueless about new players. Until you get to 2-3 mil SP the the training rate should be accelerated to 500-1000% then they can reduces it gradually to current levels when you get to 5-6 mil SP. The training is filled with all kind of bottlenecks that keeps basically at the same level for weeks or even months.

You need to brush up on your history, what you're suggesting would actually be a step backwards.

Newbies used to get a 100% boost to their skill training speed until they hit 1.6 million SP. It was removed when CCP dumped learning skills, and revamped the initial character stats so that your character attributes are a fair bit better than they were previously. Overall your character trains faster now than it has done at any time in the past.

Quote:

Some player asked on the forum how to set a training plan because he was away for a month. Somebody answered him to put in queue a skill that takes a month to train. A month!!!!!

And? It's been that way since day one.

Quote:

Then again fixing this horrid training mechanic would impact their pay2win model were new characters are trained and sold more or less for real money.

Pay2win? You're having a laugh, new characters ain't worth diddly in the character bazaar and they definitely aren't exchanged for real money, character sales are done with ingame currency, unless of course it's for sale on eBay which results in one thing, the ban hammer.

Quote:

Shorter train time would mean more players and they don't really want more players.

Of course they want new players, you're just spouting rubbish.

Quote:

Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll have a similar opinion. That is if no other company takes the good ideas from Eve and makes a game that would get the Eve players base.

That's not going to happen, the best any rival will come up with is a wishy washy facsimile of Eve, and the majority of people play Eve precisely because it is a brutal game, wishy washy just ain't going to vut it for a lot of us.

Posted - 2014.03.04 09:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
Changing skill training time after so many years have passed would be totally unfair to those of us who have been here longest. You can't change rules in the middle of a game. It is unnecessary anyway since there is a lot you can do with any skill set. One of the things I love about Eve is that you need time and patience to work towards goals, it's not instant gratification then complain about no content like most MMO's.

[quote=Gully Alex Foyle]things too much - although primarily when I was doing time sink skills (Advanced Spaceship Command for example).The base time is, in my opinion, actually too short. To get a rank 1 skill from skillbook to V is less than four days (with a peak remap and implants) - I would support stretching that to seven, a week to fully develop a skill seems about right.

Coming from a player almost 10 years in the game is no surprise.

Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll have a similar opinion. That is if no other company takes the good ideas from Eve and makes a game that would get the Eve players base.

Already happening. Star Citizen will be in alpha later this year and released in 2015. It is fully player funded btw.

Yes the training is in fact too slow. It is unfair to new players who ask for a level playing field. Those who are against lowering the training time are just Cowards and A-Holes who like to pick on lesser skilled newbies. I have been playing this game for a decade and know the attitude and nature of most EVE players and it isn't good. In the end it is the current attitude towards change that hurts this game. The Devs would be total idiots not to look into this issue.

If you've been playing this game for 10 years and think that having more SP is actually relevant once appropriate support skills have been trained up, then you are wrong. The reality is that since there is a finite amount of skillpoints that are needed to be able to fly a given ship "perfectly."

The only difference once you achieve that threshhold is breadth of ship choices. SP is irrelevant.

Posted - 2014.03.04 09:45:00 -
[72] - Quote
The proposed 5-10% seems pretty arbitrary with no good reason provided. It could as well be 20%, or -10% and nothing really major would change. Seems pointless to me.I just started training a 34 days skill on a char and, well, it's long but then I knew it will be when I made the skill plan in evemon.

I know that 1-2 weeks, months old characters are really impatient, we all felt that when we were that new. But it's part of a challenge to find out what can you do with current skills, and what would be realistic short-mid-long term plans for you. Adjust skill plan for your game play goals. Don't make 2 year old plans on new characters unless it's an alt and you're really really patient...:) having realistic short term goals is important. Since the removal of learning skills it's very possible as well.

- The real-time training concept is great- The 'order of magnitude' of the current training time feels right too. It gives you time to learn to fly stuff and makes that new ship class that you've waited weeks/months to get into all the more rewarding. It also gives progression in EVE that 'epic' pace that is pretty cool.

But...

Why not speed up things just a little bit? Say, 5% to 10% max.

To make it fair for everybody, all active accounts would receive an SP bonus of exactly ( 1 / 0.95-0.9 -1 = ) 5.26%-11.11% of their current SP.

So all EVE players, new and old, would be able to do a little bit more stuff in the game. A new ship class, a bonus to the preferred weapon system, whatever.

My assumption here is: a bit more opportunites for all = a bit more fun for all. And since it would be percentage-based, it shouldn't really make things easier for new players at the expense of the vets. The vets would get a hefty SP bonus indeed! That they could maybe use to more easily kill that HAC that the younger player just got into a few weeks earlier than before... Win-win maybe?

Wouldn't we all love this? Wouldn't it also boost active player numbers ('hey lemme go try that brand new toy')?

Final disclaimer: I know most threads are whiney these days. I'm not complaining, I'm a patient dude and I have tons of fun flying just frigs and dessies atm. Just thought this could be reasonable and a nice present for every EVE player

I have no idea if this was even touched on as I didn't bother to read every single response in the thread. But I think that because Eve has such a high learning curve compared to other games the pacing of skill training as it stands is a huge benefit to new players.For some people first starting Eve the game can be very overwhelming. There is a lot to see, do and learn. The way the skills train allows for a players game knowledge to keep pace with their skill training. A player can get into a standard t1 battleship in about 3-4 days. I wouldn't advise it as it would be virtually impossible to fit it well enough to do much with it... but it is doable. Here is the problem: a new player doesn't have the support skills... but even MORE paramount imo is the fact that they don't have the knowledge necessary (even WITH the skills) to make it an effective platform. That's what training time in Eve can really do for a new player. It lets them fly the smaller ships and gives them the experience they need to make each platform they train into all the more effective.I am at 40+m sp right now and even though I have the experience necessary to fly most standard battleships... when I get my marauder I am still going to take my time with it to get used to how it flies, to see how fast it kills, to get an overall feel for how the performance of the ship will enhance my gameplay. But it takes... TIME. And as you are training your skills you have just that... time. Just my thoughts. Good luck in game.

the rate is fine, given the absolutely ZERO risk in gaining it. unless you are stupid and like to pvp with a set of +5s...

would be nice to get all the way to +7s, but say, you must have a "training slot" available on a POS module of sorts. that way you are forced to join/create a corporation, and also forced and rewarded by having and defending a POS.

so long as the POS is standing and enough slots are available every character on that corp can benefit from the training bonus.

i don't think its a terrible idea, and training implants need to die.

i do pvp witha full set of +5 (all implants ecept charisma one) since almost 2 years, never lost it.

granted it is low sec, but it is possible, the odds of getting your pod killed are really low down there unlike null and wh.

indeed, i DO however switch to a less expansive pod sometimes, mostly because i go null or wh, but overall, i don't spend more than a week / year in low with a non +5 pod. and i do pvp every day.

I know that 1-2 weeks, months old characters are really impatient, we all felt that when we were that new.

That's the problem here, for new charactes looking at the training queue is like watching grass grow. Probably none of the CCP devs ever looked at this from the perspective of a new players since the game launched.

Then some 5 year old players completely unable to put them self in the shoes of the new players come here with ideas like "oh, no, training is too fast"

. Toons that would leave things exactly as they currently are: 38 (a few light trolling / fooling around posts included)

. Toons that suggest some other change, but are still against the idea of faster training + SP bonus for all players: 7 (a few 'make it easier just for newbies' whines included, because yes my idea was intended to give vets a bigger advantage)

. Toons in favour of the idea: zero!

So 100% NO, of which 84% 'change nothing'. Amazing, I knew EVE players were hardcore, but this goes beyond my expectations!

So if say, next Christmas CCP gave all players a +5% SP gift instead of a Fedo, everybody would be very pissed off and come to the forums to say 'TAKE THE SP BACK, I WANT MY FEDO!'.

That's the problem here, for new charactes looking at the training queue is like watching grass grow.

That's the problem right there: they shouldn't be looking at the training queue; they should be playing and learning the game.GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥

Posted - 2014.03.04 10:37:00 -
[78] - Quote
Tacomaco should be required to train all of the learning skills, to level 5. It'd give them an idea of just how much better the skill training mechanic is now compared to the past.

. Toons that would leave things exactly as they currently are: 38 (a few light trolling / fooling around posts included)

. Toons that suggest some other change, but are still against the idea of faster training + SP bonus for all players: 7 (a few 'make it easier just for newbies' whines included, because yes my idea was intended to give vets a bigger advantage)

. Toons in favour of the idea: zero!

So 100% NO, of which 84% 'change nothing'. Amazing, I knew EVE players were hardcore, but this goes beyond my expectations!

So if say, next Christmas CCP gave all players a +5% SP gift instead of a Fedo, everybody would be very pissed off and come to the forums to say 'TAKE THE SP BACK, I WANT MY FEDO!'.

Cool!

Giving a 1 time bonus as a gift is not the same as a consistent permanent change.

I know that 1-2 weeks, months old characters are really impatient, we all felt that when we were that new.

That's the problem here, for new charactes looking at the training queue is like watching grass grow. Probably none of the CCP devs ever looked at this from the perspective of a new players since the game launched.

Then some 5 year old players completely unable to put them self in the shoes of the new players come here with ideas like "oh, no, training is too fast"

The real issue with new players is they come from other games and have no idea how irrelevant SP is in this game.

It takes over 20 years to train all skills so no one can WIN the SP thing. Most of my characters are only one or two month trained. Most older players stop training characters once they can do what they need to. A viable faction war character only needs 6 or 8 weeks training max.

Plus if you really want a high SP character just go to the character bazaar and get one.

Aside from anything eelse dumbing down games to suit whiney noobs has never helped any game ever ... just look what happened to D&D with 4th edition.

Plus if you really want a high SP character just go to the character bazaar and get one.

Not that it'll do a newbie any good, because a newbie with a 100M SP character is still a newbie, with absolutely no idea about how to leverage that characters SP effectively, taking the pay2win (Tacomacos words not mine) shortcut invariably ends in tears, because Eve is as much about personal skills as it is about the characters skills.

Plus if you really want a high SP character just go to the character bazaar and get one.

Not that it'll do a newbie any good, because a newbie with a 100M SP character is still a newbie, with absolutely no idea about how to leverage that characters SP effectively, taking the pay2win (Tacomacos words not mine) shortcut invariably ends in tears, because Eve is as much about personal skills as it is about the characters skills.

^ What he said. EVE isn't about bigger and better, it's about using what you have to the best of your abilities. Often a frigate can turn out to be a far better tool for the job than the biggest ship you can fly - and they don't take a whole lot of training to use well.

Giving a 1 time bonus as a gift is not the same as a consistent permanent change.

Not exactly the same, but very similar. Difference being the effect would be concentrated instead of distributed in time.

After a +5% SP gift, you'd have roughly the same SP that you would've had if the training time were 5% faster for the entire duration of your toons' 'active EVE lifespan' (adjusted for your remap/implant choices). Roughly 2.5 weeks/year, so 5-6 weeks in your case.

It would still have an impact on the character bazaar, for example, and still give people (especially older players) some new toys fast.

Are you saying you are less 'hardcore' than most of the other posters, and would oppose faster skill training but would welcome a one-time SP bonus to all active toons?

good advice to train faster and to make better use of the skills you already have

unidenify wrote:

good advice to train faster

Hasikan Miallok wrote:

good advice to train more effectively and to make better use of the skills you already have

Nimrod vanHall wrote:

good advice to train faster

Thanks for the advice guys, but I'd like to clarify: I wasn't asking how to train faster/more effectively or how to have fun with the skills I have.

I wanted to ask: wouldn't EVE be more fun for everybody - and still remaining pretty much the challenging game we all love - if we had a slight 5-10% boost both to current SP and to new SP progression?

Or in other words: wouldn't you enjoy a slight skill boost? Remember 5-10% boost means you'd still have to train many many months for that Archon... still not 'instant gratification' by any measure.

This kind of change would only really benefit training skills from 4 to 5. Training 1 to 4 takes a LOT less time so the gains will be pretty much lost as they're simply not noticable, unless you decrease training time by 30% or more.

No one is stopping people from just training stuff to 4 and leaving it there, training other skills to 3 or 4 before training the first to 5...

This proposal assumes that everyone trains skills from 1 to 5 in one go and never trains up a new skill to 3 or 4 before the previous one is at 5. Therefore the proposal basically aims to fix bad planning and unreasonable goals, which is a player error, not a game design fault.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Being new to the EVE universe I haven't encountered the month + wait yet but I will say this: The skill que system in EVE is superior to any other mmo time sink skill grind method I've endured. That play style is for the birds. The que system here allows me to do more productive things while I wait... like study and learn the game.

Posted - 2014.03.04 13:30:00 -
[87] - Quote
I understand the arguments of the op but honestly, the faster you interiorize the mantras of eve, the better for you, really. Come on, don't be shy, join the cult.

Posted - 2014.03.04 13:31:00 -
[88] - Quote
I think we could use a bit more in the beginning, there's a lull period after the training missions are run where the new guys have some cash but get a bit stuck in level ones and can't pull twos. Granted they learn some other valuable lessons like how painful ship loss can be without a plex and the idea of training being important gets burned into their mind at this time. Its not very fun though. I'd like to see the numbers for accounts quitting during this time. It often takes a lot of convincing to get them over the hump. THen the pace becomes about right and before you know it they are moving right along.

The lull might be addicting, to me it could be costing subscriptions but more to the point of this thread. THe noobs build up a lot of caution that costs them fun if they don't have someone pushing or pulling them on.

I think we could use a bit more in the beginning, there's a lull period after the training missions are run where the new guys have some cash but get a bit stuck in level ones and can't pull twos. Granted they learn some other valuable lessons like how painful ship loss can be without a plex and the idea of training being important gets burned into their mind at this time. Its not very fun though. I'd like to see the numbers for accounts quitting during this time. It often takes a lot of convincing to get them over the hump. THen the pace becomes about right and before you know it they are moving right along.

The lull might be addicting, to me it could be costing subscriptions but more to the point of this thread. THe noobs build up a lot of caution that costs them fun if they don't have someone pushing or pulling them on.

I would argue lvl 2s are pretty much doable in your first week, lvl3s in your 2nd or 3rd. If you enjoy a little bit of challenge, that is.

The first real lull I came across is when you need V in lots of rank 2s and higher to gain access to T2 ship classes and gear.

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