Now let's add on the number of people related to that 1 in 9. Spouses and kids are likely going to hear a very pro-statist view from the family member who is putting food on the table by working for the government.

How many times have you heard a cop's wife/kid/sibling launch the old "you just don't understand!" defense?

Now let's take a look at the remaining population. Among those who don't have a close relative employed by the state, how many are *receiving* goodies from the state? How many are getting housing subsidies, welfare, food stamps, fuel and heating assistance, free medical and other forms of government largesse? How many of those are going to view "Uncle Sugar" as a bad guy as long as they're "gettin stuff!" from the state?

And among the paltry numbers of the proud, hard working souls who are left, how many of those come from households where it is viewed as patriotic to blindly support the police because they're "protecting" us?

Anyone think we're probably approaching about seven or eight out of ten?

I see a severe imbalance in the way this forum tends to treat cops vs. the way military people are respected:Our military is just as brutal and murderous in several USA occupied countries, so why is this forum generally pro-military pro baby killers?

Note: I'm not saying we should all be anti-military, just more consistent and fair. Either be easier on the average cop, or much tougher on our men overseas.

That's almost certainly not going to happen - at least, not just on general or abstract principle.

The reason for this is that the cops are employed in the War on Us - while the military is employed in the War on Them.

It's the same reason that people around here are going to bitch more about the US government than about the North Korean government - or more about Abraham Lincoln than about Jefferson Davis. It's not that ALL of those things don't deserve to be bitched about - they all do. But people are quite naturally & understandably going bitch with more frequency & intensity about the boots that are proximate to their necks than the ones that are not. (If the US Army ever starts bashing down doors & killing people here in America, for example, then you can bet your ass that RPFs will get one hell of a lot more "anti-military" ... but until then, cops are going to continue to get the lion's share of the "hate" ...)

That's almost certainly not going to happen - at least, not just on general or abstract principle.

The reason for this is that the cops are employed in the War on Us - while the military is employed in the War on Them.

It's the same reason that people around here are going to bitch more about the US government than about the North Korean government - or more about Abraham Lincoln than about Jefferson Davis. It's not that ALL of those things don't deserve to be bitched about - they all do. But people are quite naturally & understandably going bitch with more frequency & intensity about the boots that are proximate to their necks than the ones that are not. (If the US Army ever starts bashing down doors & killing people here in America, for example, then you can bet your ass that RPFs will get one hell of a lot more "anti-military" ...)

But, but...........Saving the world is important.

I fear this country is to the point saving our own asses is a stretch...

I see a severe imbalance in the way this forum tends to treat cops vs. the way military people are respected:Our military is just as brutal and murderous in several USA occupied countries, so why is this forum generally pro-military pro baby killers?

Note: I'm not saying we should all be anti-military, just more consistent and fair. Either be easier on the average cop, or much tougher on our men overseas.

I agree with what Occam's Banana stated: the police point their weapons at us, while the military points their weapons at them. However, I believe the police are more brutal given the context of their function, which is policing their fellow citizens. Granted, brutal policing cannot compare to an outright carpet bombing, so perhaps it would be more accurate to compare the police to a post-combat, military occupation in which their roles, and the context of their roles, are more similar.

After President Bush declared "victory" in Iraq, the Rules of Engagement were that soldiers could not fire on anyone for being armed unless they were being threatened. The only exception to this rule was if the individual carried an RPG. Think about this, and compare it with this story or the majority of police stories. Police kill their own citizens for being armed with airsoft guns, while in war-torn Iraq, an Iraqi armed with an AK-47 would not warrant being fired upon.

When entering a post, everyone must clear their weapons of ammunition and dry-fire into a barrel filled with sand in order to ensure that there is no round chambered. Firing a round into this barrel would warrant the loss of rank and a month of pay. Now compare this to when a police officer shoots a United States citizen, intentionally or "accidentally": paid vacation.

During Basic Training, the weapons qualification test was on the first anniversary of 9/11. The Drill Sergeants put pictures of Osama bin Laden's face on some of the pop-up targets. Now compare this to the "No Hesitation" targets our law enforcement use (pictures of pregnant women with guns, children with guns, elderly people with guns - in case you haven't seen that thread).

Finally, there is more variance of personnel within the military, as well as a diverse range of occupations. A medic, cook, mechanic, truck driver, or Chaplain's assistant cannot really be compared to your average police officer. While the military is authoritarian in structure, its individuals do not project authoritarianism in the same way our law enforcement does. If the military were filled solely with veteran police officers, I guarantee you that the military would become far, far more murderous. The police are far worse than the military, and are traitors to their own people.

"I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
-Stannis Baratheon

Originally Posted by otherone

The reason we have an evil, immoral empire is that it is populated by evil, immoral peons. The State isn't a faceless monster...it is composed of all our petty, ignorant, self-righteous and self-absorbed neighbors.

Some well thought out and strongly worded, but polite, letters of disapproval will fix this.

Correct on one count: Polite. Make sure to use "Please" and "Please, sir." Do not use strong words or voice disapproval lest you be considered as one who is not "pro-police." Remember these are peace offic...errrr..law enforcement officers. We cannot know the stress they are under.

“Our rights are not granted by governments. They are inherent to our nature. But it’s entirely the opposite for governments: their privileges are precisely equal to only those which we suffer them to enjoy." -Edward Snowden

I can't believe this old coot had the temerity to question this brave officer's AUTHORATAH! He should have shot him a few more times just for good measure. Thank goodness these brave peace warriors made it home safe to their families that night.

I see a severe imbalance in the way this forum tends to treat cops vs. the way military people are respected:Our military is just as brutal and murderous in several USA occupied countries, so why is this forum generally pro-military pro baby killers?

Note: I'm not saying we should all be anti-military, just more consistent and fair. Either be easier on the average cop, or much tougher on our men overseas.

Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

I agree with what Occam's Banana stated: the police point their weapons at us, while the military points their weapons at them. However, I believe the police are more brutal given the context of their function, which is policing their fellow citizens. Granted, brutal policing cannot compare to an outright carpet bombing, so perhaps it would be more accurate to compare the police to a post-combat, military occupation in which their roles, and the context of their roles, are more similar.

After President Bush declared "victory" in Iraq, the Rules of Engagement were that soldiers could not fire on anyone for being armed unless they were being threatened. The only exception to this rule was if the individual carried an RPG. Think about this, and compare it with this story or the majority of police stories. Police kill their own citizens for being armed with airsoft guns, while in war-torn Iraq, an Iraqi armed with an AK-47 would not warrant being fired upon.

When entering a post, everyone must clear their weapons of ammunition and dry-fire into a barrel filled with sand in order to ensure that there is no round chambered. Firing a round into this barrel would warrant the loss of rank and a month of pay. Now compare this to when a police officer shoots a United States citizen, intentionally or "accidentally": paid vacation.

During Basic Training, the weapons qualification test was on the first anniversary of 9/11. The Drill Sergeants put pictures of Osama bin Laden's face on some of the pop-up targets. Now compare this to the "No Hesitation" targets our law enforcement use (pictures of pregnant women with guns, children with guns, elderly people with guns - in case you haven't seen that thread).

Finally, there is more variance of personnel within the military, as well as a diverse range of occupations. A medic, cook, mechanic, truck driver, or Chaplain's assistant cannot really be compared to your average police officer. While the military is authoritarian in structure, its individuals do not project authoritarianism in the same way our law enforcement does. If the military were filled solely with veteran police officers, I guarantee you that the military would become far, far more murderous. The police are far worse than the military, and are traitors to their own people.

@AF- What's your take on what Laurence Vance says about military chaplains? (I linked it in the other thread.)

In my mind "Christian" military chaplains are spiritual whores. I don't like the fact that Christians "serve" in the military or police forces either, but chaplains are the worst in my mind because they support the military IN THE NAME of Christianity, rather than simply happening to be a Christian and a soldier.

This is also a reason why, despite being a Christian, I have NO SYMPATHY for anyone who complains that the military they "serve" in is not letting them witness or whatever. I hope the military (and police, for that matter) makes things as intolerable for Christians as they can. Christians need to have their eyes opened to the evil of this government. And again, I say this as a Christian myself.

A few days ago a (plastered drunk) man wrecked his truck outside our house. His vehicle took out all our mail boxes and wound rolling (literally) through our neighbors house and ended up on its side against a tree with the cab completely smashed.
This was at midnight - I didn't know it was a wreck at first and all I heard was a loud noise.

In recent years punks have smashed our mail box often and very recently both of our cars were broken into in our driveway.

So when I heard the noise I put a gun on my hip and went outside to see what happened. My neighbor had already called the police and was outside with the driver who was thrown from the truck and miraculously survived.
He is a fireman and knows first aid and all that stuff so I just stood there in case he needed help.

I look a little rough - long hair, beard, young ... was wearing a leather jacket ... ya know, the guy who cops usually give a hard time to.

First thing (I kid you not) the cop did when he arrived on the scene was shine the flashlight in my face (I was blinding) and said accusingly "so you were the one driving bub?"

All I did was run outside after hearing a loud noise and stick around in case they needed help till the ambulance got there but as soon as the cop saw me he knew I had to be guilty of something (dispatch told him it was a drunk driver).

...

Reading stories like this make me wonder if I would have been killed if I heard a noise outside, took a gun and to be met with cops (without their emergency lights going) shining their flashlights in my face and yelling after noticing I was armed.
Its likely I would be - and very likely that my wife would have to listen to some prick explain why it was a justified shooting and live with the fact that my killer was still on the streets operating in the same capacity as before.

Contrary to what cops think the first thought to go through my head wouldn't be "I better get rid of my gun".

A few days ago a (plastered drunk) man wrecked his truck outside our house. His vehicle took out all our mail boxes and wound rolling (literally) through our neighbors house and ended up on its side against a tree with the cab completely smashed.
This was at midnight - I didn't know it was a wreck at first and all I heard was a loud noise.

In recent years punks have smashed our mail box often and very recently both of our cars were broken into in our driveway.

So when I heard the noise I put a gun on my hip and went outside to see what happened. My neighbor had already called the police and was outside with the driver who was thrown from the truck and miraculously survived.
He is a fireman and knows first aid and all that stuff so I just stood there in case he needed help.

I look a little rough - long hair, beard, young ... was wearing a leather jacket ... ya know, the guy who cops usually give a hard time to.

First thing (I kid you not) the cop did when he arrived on the scene was shine the flashlight in my face (I was blinding) and said accusingly "so you were the one driving bub?"

All I did was run outside after hearing a loud noise and stick around in case they needed help till the ambulance got there but as soon as the cop saw me he knew I had to be guilty of something (dispatch told him it was a drunk driver).

...

Reading stories like this make me wonder if I would have been killed if I heard a noise outside, took a gun and to be met with cops (without their emergency lights going) shining their flashlights in my face and yelling after noticing I was armed.
Its likely I would be - and very likely that my wife would have to listen to some prick explain why it was a justified shooting and live with the fact that my killer was still on the streets operating in the same capacity as before.

Contrary to what cops think the first thought to go through my head wouldn't be "I better get rid of my gun".

Glad your still on this side. It could have went south so very, very, quickly.

“Our rights are not granted by governments. They are inherent to our nature. But it’s entirely the opposite for governments: their privileges are precisely equal to only those which we suffer them to enjoy." -Edward Snowden

A few days ago a (plastered drunk) man wrecked his truck outside our house. His vehicle took out all our mail boxes and wound rolling (literally) through our neighbors house and ended up on its side against a tree with the cab completely smashed.
This was at midnight - I didn't know it was a wreck at first and all I heard was a loud noise.

In recent years punks have smashed our mail box often and very recently both of our cars were broken into in our driveway.

So when I heard the noise I put a gun on my hip and went outside to see what happened. My neighbor had already called the police and was outside with the driver who was thrown from the truck and miraculously survived.
He is a fireman and knows first aid and all that stuff so I just stood there in case he needed help.

I look a little rough - long hair, beard, young ... was wearing a leather jacket ... ya know, the guy who cops usually give a hard time to.

First thing (I kid you not) the cop did when he arrived on the scene was shine the flashlight in my face (I was blinding) and said accusingly "so you were the one driving bub?"

All I did was run outside after hearing a loud noise and stick around in case they needed help till the ambulance got there but as soon as the cop saw me he knew I had to be guilty of something (dispatch told him it was a drunk driver).

...

Reading stories like this make me wonder if I would have been killed if I heard a noise outside, took a gun and to be met with cops (without their emergency lights going) shining their flashlights in my face and yelling after noticing I was armed.
Its likely I would be - and very likely that my wife would have to listen to some prick explain why it was a justified shooting and live with the fact that my killer was still on the streets operating in the same capacity as before.

Contrary to what cops think the first thought to go through my head wouldn't be "I better get rid of my gun".

Finish the story. How did you answer him? What did he have to say about your side-arm? This is important information for anyone of us who may find ourselves in a similar situation.

Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

Dilige et quod vis fac.~ Saint Augustine

Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD

If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.

Originally Posted by otherone

"People who live in white houses shouldn't throw drones" - the GOOD book

Finish the story. How did you answer him? What did he have to say about your side-arm? This is important information for anyone of us who may find ourselves in a similar situation.

He didn't see the gun. I wonder what his reaction would have been if he did - but I was wearing a jacket and purposely kept it concealed.
I was offended and shocked that he asked - the other guy was a bloody mess sitting on his windshield and too drunk to hardly know what was going on and I was standing by my neighbor's wife, perfectly sober without a scratch on me.

Anyway, I just answered by saying "What?!" then Jill (neighbor's wife) said "no, no he is our neighbor. He lives in that house" (and pointed).

It only lasted for a second and I don't think the cop was ever alarmed or threatened and I never felt like he was close to drawing his weapon. The light was only in my face for a second, till Jill started talking (which was immediately after he asked. She started answering the question as soon as I did.) then he focused on the injured driver.

The attitude of the cop - "that guy must be one of the 'bad guys'" (since this was unquestionably a drunk driving incident, that was the attitude he had towards the driver) as soon as he saw me is what I thought was alarming. If it was a situation more like the OP and the cops found me outside my house with a gun while investigating a robbery + the instant "he's a bad guy" assessment and combined with my trust issues with the police I could see it ending in me getting shot.

But in the car wreck scenario I don't think it was on the brink of escalating. Unless the cop noticed my gun before being corrected about me not being the driver.

In the cop's defense he was given bad information from dispatch saying there were two people in car and not one.
I was in the same age group as the driver, my neighbors are older. Jill was holding a phone and Dave was helping the driver. I was just standing there close by ... if dispatch told him the accurate number I'm sure he wouldn't have accused me.
So maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of it.

Not trying to sound like a victim. It was just the cop's quick assumption that I was a criminal while I happened to have been armed that got me thinking. If he knew I was armed and assumed I was a criminal it might have been very different.

He didn't see the gun. I wonder what his reaction would have been if he did - but I was wearing a jacket and purposely kept it concealed.
I was offended and shocked that he asked - the other guy was a bloody mess sitting on his windshield and too drunk to hardly know what was going on and I was standing by my neighbor's wife, perfectly sober without a scratch on me.

Anyway, I just answered by saying "What?!" then Jill (neighbor's wife) said "no, no he is our neighbor. He lives in that house" (and pointed).

It only lasted for a second and I don't think the cop was ever alarmed or threatened and I never felt like he was close to drawing his weapon. The light was only in my face for a second, till Jill started talking (which was immediately after he asked. She started answering the question as soon as I did.) then he focused on the injured driver.

The attitude of the cop - "that guy must be one of the 'bad guys'" (since this was unquestionably a drunk driving incident, that was the attitude he had towards the driver) as soon as he saw me is what I thought was alarming. If it was a situation more like the OP and the cops found me outside my house with a gun while investigating a robbery + the instant "he's a bad guy" assessment and combined with my trust issues with the police I could see it ending in me getting shot.

But in the car wreck scenario I don't think it was on the brink of escalating. Unless the cop noticed my gun before being corrected about me not being the driver.

In the cop's defense he was given bad information from dispatch saying there were two people in car and not one.
I was in the same age group as the driver, my neighbors are older. Jill was holding a phone and Dave was helping the driver. I was just standing there close by ... if dispatch told him the accurate number I'm sure he wouldn't have accused me.
So maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of it.

Not trying to sound like a victim. It was just the cop's quick assumption that I was a criminal while I happened to have been armed that got me thinking. If he knew I was armed and assumed I was a criminal it might have been very different.

Notice that he immediately tried to escalate the situation, regardless of the injured man on the ground.

A candlelight vigil will be held at his family’s Woodhaven home Wednesday night as friends remember Waller, 72, who died last year after being shot several times by a Fort Worth policeman who had responded to a burglary call at the wrong house.

“Jerry Waller was a veteran. He had the highest regard for the men and women who serve our country and community,” says a statement on the Justice for Jerry Waller website. “He would not want the tragic decisions of the police involved in his death to cast a shadow on the honest and hardworking officers who serve our city. We need everyone’s support to get to the truth.”

I'd suspect it's not so much "groveling", but knowing that they can't come right out and say what they really think (it's hard to overcome the "all cops are Heroes" brainwashing we've all been subjected to for many years).

I'd suspect it's not so much "groveling", but knowing that they can't come right out and say what they really think (it's hard to overcome the "all cops are Heroes" brainwashing we've all been subjected to for many years).

Or maybe they themselves haven't overcome it yet.

Honestly? Its even hard for me to overcome it sometimes. Not that I'd ever entertain the idea that cops are "heroic" at some point, but its a constant struggle to realize just how bad it is.

"When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

"nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

"I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

Some well thought out and strongly worded, but polite, letters of disapproval will fix this.

Originally Posted by JK/SEA

i'm on it.

who's with me?

You'll have to count me out. I just wouldn't be able to do it without dropping a bunch of f-bombs and such on the assholes.
And that would only serve to neutralize or destroy the massive effectiveness and strong impact of the whole effort ...

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