Cologne, Germany (dpa) - When the Rev. Franz Meurer stands at the altar this Sunday in his priestly vestments, he'll say to the congregation: "Today's collection is for the construction of the big new mosque in Ehrenfeld."

Meurer, 55, is not expecting protests. Both the board of Cologne's St. Theodore Catholic Church and the parish council have unanimously approved the action.

"It's only natural that we're helping them," he said of the Muslims living in a city that is one of the main centres of Catholicism in Germany.

After the special collection was announced last Sunday, several parishioners asked if it was really necessary - considering, for instance, that four young Turks beat a family man into a coma on the Thursday before Ash Wednesday.

St. Theodore's parish council came up with the unusual idea. Its chairman reminded the group that their new church was completed five years ago, and that the Protestant parish in the neighbourhood had given a nice gift.

"Now we, in turn, should give someone a gift too," Meurer said. "That's how we hit upon the mosque; it's being designed by the same architect that did our church."

The mosque, at the headquarters of the Turkish-Islamic Union for the Institution of Religion (DITIB) in the Cologne district of Ehrenfeld, will be one of Germany's biggest. Plans call for two 55-metre-high minarets, a dome, and room for more than 3,000 worshippers.

A right-wing populist party called ProCologne has been gathering signatures for a public petition against the structure. Ehrenfeld residents who want nothing to do with the petition have reservations about the size of the mosque, however.

Meurer's parish is in the Cologne suburbs of Hoehenberg and Vingst, both of which have a high proportion of foreigners. At his initiative, 180 sponsors planted 41,000 daffodils now in bloom along the streets.

Christian community work for Meurer means things like installing public dog loos because, as he said, "once an area like this is neglected, it can go downhill very fast."

At the community centre, young Muslim women in headscarves are photographed at no cost for job applications. Turkish children play in the yard. And Meurer organises multi-religious celebrations.

Cardinal Joachim Meisner, archbishop of Cologne, set off a heated debate late last year when he directed Catholic school teachers in the region to stop participating in multi-religious events.

"All that matters to me about them is keeping peace in the area," Meurer remarked. "We don't pray together there. We get to know each other, which is possible only at get-togethers like that."

Weighing what the parish could buy for the mosque sparked a lively discussion about Islam, Meurer said.

"Our people were suggesting such things as a little kneeler, a bell, a picture and the like. But then I said, 'Friends, this isn't likely to lead anywhere. They pray to God one on one in their mosques. They haven't got liturgical objects like we do'."

About 350 euros (462 dollars) winds up in the collection bag on normal Sundays. This time, though, more than 1,000 euros has been collected in advance. DITIB officials said the amount of the gift was unimportant.

"It's simply a nice gesture by Mr Meurer," said Rafet Ozturk, DITIB's coordinator for interreligious dialogue. "We're pleased, of course. Even very pleased."

I just thought if the RC Church in Cologne had extra funds to spend, I'm sure they could have spent it on something more in line with the RC mission. Maybe helping the homeless or putting funds towards Catholic Schools etc...

I mean, I can see the underlying point, I just think it is really unrealistic.

Who knows, they might have more wisdom than I do and may one day see tangible benefits.

How about collecting money to help rebuild destroyed Orthodox churches in Kosovo or isn't that PC enough.

There's a thought. If Pope Benedict wants to help toward re-unification, speak out against the destruction of Orthodox churches in Kosovo and elsewhere in the world and then literally put his money where his mouth is.

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Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

I just thought if the RC Church in Cologne had extra funds to spend, I'm sure they could have spent it on something more in line with the RC mission. Maybe helping the homeless or putting funds towards Catholic Schools etc..

Unlike the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church does place a very high priority on both missions and charitable work. Even deducting some of the questionable, silly and outright odd causes of the Catholic Church today - their dedication to missionary and charitable work is nothing to be scoffed at.

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How about collecting money to help rebuild destroyed Orthodox churches in Kosovo or isn't that PC enough.

It probably isn't local enough. The goal of the action seems to be improving relations in the community, which isn't a bad thing. But if destroyed/stolen churches were the issue, wouldn't it make sense to send the money to Catholic communities in Ukraine or Romania that had their churches destroyed (at the behest of Holy Russia, no less)?

Furthermore the money isn't coming from the general fund of the parish. It is a VOLUNTARY extra collection. If someone doesn't want to give to it, then he shouldn't do so. If someone in the parish feels his money would be better off being donated to a different cause, then he is free to donate where he pleases.

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There's a thought. If Pope Benedict wants to help toward re-unification, speak out against the destruction of Orthodox churches in Kosovo and elsewhere in the world and then literally put his money where his mouth is.

Pope Benedict has denounced violence many times. A simple google search can show you that. I don't think large donations to Serb causes in Kosovo would go over so well with the local Catholic community as it is primarily Albanian. I don't see why the RCC owes the Orthodox Church anything when plenty of Catholic churches have been destroyed/stolen by Holy Orthodoxy and to this very day basic religious freedoms don't exist for Catholics in Holy Russia.

I'm not sure how many are aware of this, but the Orthodox Church actually did this first three years ago. And in fact it was one of the poorest Orthodox Churches in the world which did it.

Following the outbreak of renewed violence in Kosovo in March 2004, His Beatitude Anastasios, Archbishop of Tirana, DurrÃƒÂ«s and All Albania, gave the sum of $600,000 for the restoration of a Mosque and a Church in Kosovo. This amount was the sum total of what the Church in Albania had collected towards the building of it's own Cathedral in Tirana.

Of course, Archbishop Anastasios is himself Greek, so that would explain his warm, generous nature and humanity.

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Albanian bishop offers $600,000 for restoration of church and mosqueEcumenical News InternationalDaily News Service / 26 March 2004

By Clive Leviev-Sawyer

Sofia, Bulgaria, 26 March (ENI)Ã¢â‚¬â€œExpressions of both sympathy and condemnation following recent violence in Kosovo have come in from many church leaders with a powerful statement of conciliation coming from Anastasios, Archbishop of Tirana, who offered US$600 000 for the restoration of a church and mosque.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“The burning of churches and mosques, does not promote justice and peace, and certainly neither progress,Ã¢â‚¬Â said Anastasios, Orthodox Archbishop of Tirana and Albania in a statement. Ã¢â‚¬Å“On the contrary, it is a return to times and practices which led the Balkans to stagnation, divisions and tragedies.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Ã¢â‚¬Å“We offer $600,000 for the restoration of a church and a mosque in Kosovo, or the construction of a youth centre there that will promote peaceful coexistence,Ã¢â‚¬Â said Anastasios. Ã¢â‚¬Å“This sum comes from the funds that, with great effort, we have raised for the construction of the Orthodox Cathedral in Tirana.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Riots broke out last week after three Albanian boys drowned in unexplained circumstances, heightening tensions between mainly Muslim ethnic Albanians and the mainly Orthodox Serbs, who are a tiny minority in Kosovo.

Since then 28 people have been killed, several hundred have been injured, about 4000 left homeless, and places of worship including about 33 Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries have been destroyed, while mosques have been torched in revenge attacks by Serbs. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) has boosted its peacekeeping presence by 2000 soldiers in an attempt to quell the violence.

Archbishop Anastasios said: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Those who involve religion in the violence are essentially violating the spirit of religion. No matter how much one is in the right, he must respect the sanctity and the purpose of sacred places of worship. These should become centres of reconciliation and peace and not breeding-grounds for maintaining animosities.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Meanwhile on Thursday, Serbian Orthodox Church Patriarch Pavle attended a service celebrated by Greek and Serbian clergy in Belgrade, at the Patriarchal Chapel of St Simeon Myrrhobietes, to mark Greek Independence Day. Pavle thanked the Greek nation for its Ã¢â‚¬Å“support and generosityÃ¢â‚¬Â during the crisis, singling out Greek soldiers guarding Orthodox religious sites in Kosovo and Metohija.

The United Nations administers Kosovo, with NATO troops there to try to maintain peace. Kosovo is officially a province of Serbia and Montenegro, but it has been run by a UN mission and NATO peacekeepers after a 1999 air campaign by NATO pushed back Serb forces which had been cracking down on independence-seeking ethnic Albanians. Source

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

So the Catholic Church now considers it helpful to community relations to aid the Islamification of Europe? No wonder they are signatories to the ridiculous Ecumenical charter of European Churches which states:'On the one hand, the Charter proclaims that Christianity is the spiritual foundation of Europe, but, on the other hand, cultural and religious pluralism are at the same time encouragedÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ http://serbialives.blogspot.com/2007/03/russian-orthodox-church-rejects-pc.html

I have to say that this story certainly concerns me. I can understand donating money to other Christians Churches that we are not in full communion with because those Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ. But I cannot see giving money to build a mosque where our Lord Jesus Christ will be blasphemed and the the Catholic faith will be insulted. I must say that this a dangerous game that some Catholics are playing.Many Blessings in Christ,Chris

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

There are a lot of ways to build community relations with the Muslims other than building Mosques (or helping).

George,

I think Archbishop Anastasios is in a unique situation and very different from the article here. He is the head of the Orthodox Church in a country where the majority is Muslim. There have been at least two attempts on his life and their are many in Albania and in the diaspora who are not pleased with having a Greek as the head of their Church (in spite of his amazing work and record).

In that regard, I think the Archbishop has a unique set of circumstances which resulted in his actions. Having said that, I'm not sure that his generosity was the right choice either. I can think of about 100 ways the money would have been better spent.

No. They're trying to foster peaceful coexistence between people, just like the Albanian Orthodox Church did three years before them in Kosovo.

Europe is being Islamified, aiding this process does not foster peace. When Muslims become the majority they are not interested in peace unless it includes the non-believer submitting to them. Now this doesn't mean that we should be antagonistic towards them, and I am not advocating violence. But burying ones head in the sand and pretending that if we help them Islamify Europe we'll all get on like a house on fire is nonsense. The local Catholic Church, if it felt a need to show love to Muslims, could have given concrete assistance to individuals in need. Disenfranchising the native Christian population by aiding the relativisation and takeover of their Christian heritage will merely make them more resentful, and will put their descendants in a very difficult situation when the demographics change.

Europe is being Islamified, aiding this process does not foster peace. When Muslims become the majority they are not interested in peace unless it includes the non-believer submitting to them. Now this doesn't mean that we should be antagonistic towards them, and I am not advocating violence. But burying ones head in the sand and pretending that if we help them Islamify Europe we'll all get on like a house on fire is nonsense. The local Catholic Church, if it felt a need to show love to Muslims, could have given concrete assistance to individuals in need. Disenfranchising the native Christian population by aiding the relativisation and takeover of their Christian heritage will merely make them more resentful, and will put their descendants in a very difficult situation when the demographics change.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

The RC Priests will probably leverage their strengths and start raising funds by pimping out their alter boys.

That's lowbrow even for you...(and you mispelled "altar" btw)."The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." (Psalm 15:1).

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Having said that, I'm not sure that his generosity was the right choice either. I can think of about 100 ways the money would have been better spent.

Southserb,I can see what you are saying, but a big concern that I have is that history will show that Muslim and Christian neighbours were only able to coexist harmoniously under Communism in places like Yugoslavia. We have to find a way to live together, because the only other options are poltical ones: either genocide (like Turkey) or totalitarian socialist dictatorship (like Communist Yugoslavia).

« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 09:22:22 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Europe is being Islamified, aiding this process does not foster peace. When Muslims become the majority they are not interested in peace unless it includes the non-believer submitting to them. Now this doesn't mean that we should be antagonistic towards them, and I am not advocating violence. But burying ones head in the sand and pretending that if we help them Islamify Europe we'll all get on like a house on fire is nonsense. The local Catholic Church, if it felt a need to show love to Muslims, could have given concrete assistance to individuals in need. Disenfranchising the native Christian population by aiding the relativisation and takeover of their Christian heritage will merely make them more resentful, and will put their descendants in a very difficult situation when the demographics change.

Europe is hardly being Islamicised. Very few Europeans are converting to Islam. It really ins't possible to predict retention rates of 3rd and 4th generation European born immigrants, but it is doubtful that it will be dramatically higher than the retention rate of the Orthodox diaspora.

The RC Priests will probably leverage their strengths and start raising funds by pimping out their alter boys.

Do you actually think before you post? Or does every stray thought that comes into your misinformed mind end up in print? The PERCENTAGE of married men who molest people is much higher than that of priests. So stop throwing stones.Many Blessings in Christ, (even to those lack intellectual honesty).Chris

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Europe is hardly being Islamicised. Very few Europeans are converting to Islam. It really ins't possible to predict retention rates of 3rd and 4th generation European born immigrants, but it is doubtful that it will be dramatically higher than the retention rate of the Orthodox diaspora.

I agree few native Europeans are converting to Islam, they number only in the thousands. But immigration rates, combined with the high birth-rates among those immigrants and low birth rates among the indigenous population means that there is a demographic change occurring which works in IslamÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s favour. The fact that the secular EU is also trying to equate all religions means native children are being forced to attend lessons which examine Islam not in the light of Christianity, but that equate the two. This will hardly instil in children a love for the religion of their forefathers, but will confuse and disorientate them into thinking that the truth is a matter of relative opinion. Then when they are exposed to the real world they will have a choice between a revitalised, mobilised and assertive religion which has absolute values (no matter how wrong or distasteful we may consider them), and a lukewarm and dying faith which is desperately trying to appease the unappeasable and attempting to reconcile the irreconcilable. The modern European churches now find themselves in the ludicrous position of go-betweens in the ongoing tensions between European secularism, and Muslim Europeans. They pander to both, but the more they give, the more that these two opposite currents will demand. In Germany in particular, by 2050 the population is projected to fall from 82m to 59m, but the absolute number of Muslims in that country is set to grow. The proportion of Muslims will therefore go through the roof. A third of the German population will be over 65, and the only way to maintain the ratio of workers to pensioners will be to bring in yet more immigrants.Italy's population is set to drop from 57m to 41m by 2050. More than 40% will be 65 or older.The population of Europe, from Iceland to Russia, was 728m in 2000. At present birth-rates, without new immigration, the population will crash to 600m by 2050. Of the 20 nations with the lowest birth-rates in the world, 18 are in Europe. A birth-rate below replacement levels is common to every nation in Europe but Albania, which is Muslim. There are an estimated 50m Muslims living in Europe today, and that number is expected to double in the next 20 years. One third of all European children will be born to Muslim families by 2025. Thus far I've only dealt with the situation inside Europe. Outside Europe, EgyptÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s population is set to rise from 68.5m in 2000, to 95.6m in 2025, Saudi Arabia's from 21.6m to 40m, IraqÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s from 23.1m to 41m, IranÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s from 67.7m to 94.5m, AfghanistanÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s from 22.7m to 44.9m, and UzbekistanÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s from 24.3m to 33.4m. The combined population of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya will rise by 41m in the next 25 years. Almost everywhere in the Islamic world the population is exploding, and if present migration patterns continue (and there is no significant reason why they should radically change), Europe will be the preferred destination of those that desire to leave their native countries.Already in London, many more worship at mosques than at churches. This pattern is likely to spread to smaller towns through out the country, wherever there is an immigrant foothold. There are more than 1500 mosques in Germany, the EU is putting pressure on Greece to allow the building of a mosque in Athens, so yes Europe is being Islamified.That leaves only your opinion that the retention rate amongst immigrants are difficult to predict, and you are doubtful that it will be dramatically higher than the retention rate of the Orthodox diaspora. But there are a number of significant differences between the Orthodox diaspora and Muslim immigrants. Firstly Muslims tend to live in close-nit and almost self-sufficient communities, often without significant contact with those outside the immediate community. There are urban areas in the UK which are 90% Pakistani, for instance. This is not the case with Orthodox immigrants. Secondly Muslim immigrants are coming from countries which are governed by Islamic law, if not officially, then for all intents and purposes. These immigrants will keep providing flesh blood to the already existent Islamic communities in Europe. A majority of nominal Orthodox immigrants are not even practicing Christians and are coming from former communist countries. Thirdly the world situation is such that 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims are being polarised. They do not fit in with the host cultures, and this combined with their grievances (some of them perfectly legitimate) at the Wests behaviour towards the Ummah gives them a raison-d'etre, an identity of us against them. It motivates them to learn more about their religion and culture, and absorb themselves into it. I doubt one could find many third generation Muslims who do not have an opinion on the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan, or the Arab-Israeli conflict. How many of those would side with their Islamic brethren? The vast majority I should imagine. Fourthly I think that the response of 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims to the secular society that they are born into is different to those of cradle-Orthodox. A massive majority of third generation Serbs here in the UK immerse themselves into the secular mainstream without second thought. They embrace casual sex, and abandon the faith of their forefathers. They see their faith as something old, and mythological, not entirely relevant to the modern world. The ideals and examples of their Saints seem to far removed from the reality of the modern world. Ascetism and martyrdom is not something that they can relate to. For Muslims on the other hand it is a totally different story. They manage to incubate themselves to the outside world to a certain extent due to the close-knit community they immerse themselves in. Their struggles and martyrdoms are ongoing and are visible every time they switch on their TV's. The spread of Islam to all ends of the earth seems to be occurring in their life time, and the news is filled with stories about Muslim issues the world over. Even those that are tempted by the sexualised society that they live in tend to identify themselves as Muslims and are loyal to the Ummah even if they are not strictly following the Muslim moral code. For instance when they have sex before marriage them will make sure that they sleep with non-Muslim women so that they do not 'pollute' their sisters. They see the Kufr as something to be used and throw away, something not worthy of respect. Cradle Orthodox do not have this 'us against them' mentality. If they have sex before marriage, they have sinned, and estranged themselves from their faith. It does not matter whether it was an 'Orthodox sister' or a Mormon. They will feel further removed from their nominal faith, and will find it irrelevant as it doesn't justify or approve of their lifestyle (not that there aren't many who repent and are constantly struggling, but they are a small minority). So the Muslims have a tribal mentality and culture which is much easier to sustain in the secular environment than the Orthodox one. Lastly is should be mentioned that the comparison of Muslims to Orthodox is also flawed on the basis that there are and will be many more Muslim immigrants entering Europe, to add to the 2nd and 3rd generation, than there are 'Orthodox' immigrants adding to the Orthodox population of America.

I think Nektarios' statement also neglects the fact that right now in Europe you have a brand new Muslim state (Bosnia) and it looks as though Kosovo will soon join with about a 90% Muslim majority.

Following the immigration and birth rates outlined by SP, Macedonia will probably be majority Muslim within the next 20 years. In essence, you have the potential to have Muslim dominated countries from Turkey to Croatia within our lifetimes.

I mean we have seen this reality in Kosovo already.

In 1871, it was 64% Serbian and by the census of 1948, Kosovo was 68% Albanian. There are a variety of reasons for the change, but intimidation against Serbs, birth rates and immigration are amongst the biggest reasons for the shift in demograhics.

George,

I think your intentions are good and Christian, but I am not sure they are realistic. I think Islam is probably the one and only topic you and I disagree on. I think your view is a bit idealistic in as much as you think there is a desire or willingness by Muslims to coexist with Christians.

Frankly, I don't buy it. Not because of what the media says, but what my family has lived through. My family was banished from two areas because they were Christians (even though I'm constantly being told that Albanians are not religious Muslims). Currently my wife's grandmother, uncle and three aunts live surrounded by Albanian Muslims in North FYROM. They are told (almost daily) that sooner or later they will have to choose "the cross or death" (krs ili smrt - the local Albanians speak our language).

Now, if this is what is being said amongst the "secular" Albanian Muslims, then what of the more "radical" variety?

In any event, we are getting a bit off topic. I guess my point is that I would have much preferred to RC Church to have spent the money on other things in there community (be it feeding the homelesss, helping RC schools or whatever causes might be relevant in the area).

I think Nektarios' statement also neglects the fact that right now in Europe you have a brand new Muslim state (Bosnia) and it looks as though Kosovo will soon join with about a 90% Muslim majority.

Following the immigration and birth rates outlined by SP, Macedonia will probably be majority Muslim within the next 20 years. In essence, you have the potential to have Muslim dominated countries from Turkey to Croatia within our lifetimes.

There are states which have a large Islamic population and then there are actual Islamist states. The idiocy of Izetbegovic and a few others aside, there is no serious attempt (or threat) to impose sharia in Bosnia. Albania had the strictest athiest regime in history - so while Islam has made a comeback of late it is very dubious to link Islam as the cause of Albanian expansionism. To further complicate matters with Albanians in Kosovo, Muslims of Slavic, Roma and Turkish descent have all been persecuted at the hands of Albanians. So while I'd agree that Islam (whether political or religious) isn't and hasn't been a positive force in the Balkans, the matter if far mor complex than that. Other factors to consider include the extreme poverty of Albania to the extreme cultural backwardness of Albanians from centries of occupation and that the first real chance to establish a modern Albanian nation state has only really happened in the last decade. Also worth noting is that the Catholic Albanians really haven't taken a stance against KLA activities in Kosovo or Macedonia (other than the vague "violence is evil" sort of stuff).

As to your claim that these are an advance of Islam in Europe - that is ridiculous. The Ottoman Empire attacking Vienna would be Islam advancing in Europe. Bosnian Muslims are hardly something new, and Albanians have been various types of Muslims for some time as well. Islam has far less territory and political power in Europe today than it did only 100 years ago.

Serbian Patriot,

It is amusing that you are beating the drum of European Culture. A great many Western Europeans see you and your ilk as nothing more than primitive and Turkified - certainly not European culturally. Many of the objections you brought up, I have also heard brought up about the Orthodox diaspora in Europe. It is not like the Orthodox have ANY tradition of democracy - and Holy Russia serving Polonium to its diaspora in Lodnon isn't exactly going over so well. And if Europeans are to judge Islam through the eye of the religion of their forefathers - shouldn't they judge the sect of Orthodoxy in the same manner?

Serbian Patriot, It is amusing that you are beating the drum of European Culture. A great many Western Europeans see you and your ilk as nothing more than primitive and Turkified - certainly not European culturally.

Some Western Europeans may see me and my 'ilk' as primitive and Turkified, or non-European. People thinking that something is true doesn't make it true. A much greater amount are convinced that ethnic cleansing is practically a national sport. In this day and age when education standards have slipped and when people are indoctrinated by CNN and MTV, I don't see that it is profitable or logical to hold their own misconceptions up as a reason to accept division. If some Europeans don't think we're European, what do you want me to say: 'Oh OK then we're not European'. The fact is that we are, and our identity doesn't change every time someone comes up with an innovative new theory or opinion.Now there is definitely a distinction between Western and Eastern Europeans, and this is undeniable. Some historians consider us to be effectively two different civilizations: a Western one, and an Orthodox one. But we have the same Christian roots, and common ancestry and I'd like to see the indigenous European population preserved, and confess Christianity, rather than be colonised by Muslims from Africa, Asia, and the middle east.

It is not like the Orthodox have ANY tradition of democracy - and Holy Russia serving Polonium to its diaspora in Lodnon isn't exactly going over so well.

Personally I don't trumpet the virtues and wonders of democracy with the same gleeful enthusiasm of half the known world. In fact I think that in its present form it is detrimental and nonsensical. Even if the elected carried out the wishes of the electorate, what makes those wishes innately good? Or if there is a drastic population change, then the make up of the electorate would change radically and you could have an indigenous people disspossessed of their land just because a minority managed to breed their way to democratic triumph. In fact we do have such a situation in Kosovo. In any case democracy is not what binds us, Christianity and ethnicity are what binds us with our European brothers.

And if Europeans are to judge Islam through the eye of the religion of their forefathers - shouldn't they judge the sect of Orthodoxy in the same manner?

By all means. At least they'd be aware of Orthodoxy and would be able to examine the historic and theological facts and make an opinion. I would rather little children in Britain were taught about Christianity from a Protestant or Catholic view point, rather than from a relativistic, agnostic, atheistic, or Islamic viewpoint. It would be slightly short-sighted and selfish, and more importantly un-Christian, for me to say that since they can't be taught from an Orthodox viewpoint, I'm indifferent about whether they recieve an Islamic or Catholic education.

The idiocy of Izetbegovic and a few others aside, there is no serious attempt (or threat) to impose sharia in Bosnia.

Maybe not today, but that was also once true of Afghanistan and Iran.

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To further complicate matters with Albanians in Kosovo, Muslims of Slavic, Roma and Turkish descent have all been persecuted at the hands of Albanians.

Muslims are not above fighting within, however I just think they'll solve their infidel problems first, then deal between themselves.

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Also worth noting is that the Catholic Albanians really haven't taken a stance against KLA activities in Kosovo or Macedonia (other than the vague "violence is evil" sort of stuff).

Well, there are a lot of reasons for this, but the primary one is that the represent less than 5% of the Kosovo Albanian population and they have seen the result of what happened to those Albanians deemd sympathetic to Serbia. They don't have much choice in the matter.

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As to your claim that these are an advance of Islam in Europe - that is ridiculous.

My demographic numbers speak for themselves. Kosovo has has a TOTAL flip in population. Macedonia is en route to the same destination, ditto that for Bosnia and I think the proof is in the pudding.

Despite all of the name calling here I think that it is not Islam that will harm the Christian prescence in Europe or America, but secular culture. For years the Communists were the bogeymen and were vilified for being ungodless, but look today. Christianity has survived Communism in the former Communist countries of Europe. Secularism is more insidious as it comes along with a happy face and then slowly lulls and lures the faithful away from the church. Islam for what its worth is in your face as was Communism. Orthodox Christianity survived the Ottoman Empire. Christianity will live on and prevail and the gates of Hell will not overpower the church.

That's my two cents.

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Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

Islamist fundamentalism has emerged as a new force in Bosnia thanks to funding from Saudi Arabia. Saudi monies has led to Wahhabism being spread in the country, a journalist from Bosnia said while addressing a seminar organised by the Rand Corporation at the Doha Sheraton.

A director of the independent Bosnian magazine, Dani, Senad Pecanin said that most of the fundamentalists had merged into Bosnian society after marrying Bosnian women.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“After the civil war, mujahideen fighters stayed and married Bosnian women. They started Wahhabism. They have physically attacked people in mosques. They are trying to impose a ban on alcohol. All this is sponsored by Saudi Arabia," he said.

Pecanin added: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Never before in Bosnia have we seen women moving about in the hijab.Ã¢â‚¬Â Widows, he said, were asked to convert in return for $50 per month. Many had to succumb as they were unemployed and had no means of supporting their families, he said.

Dani, established in 1992, is a trendsetter as far as journalism is concerned in Bosnia. Although it has a print run of 20,000 copies, the publication has not been afraid to tackle issues head-on like war crimes, corruption, trafficking in women and drugs. It is also unafraid to name names. Pecanin said amid laughter: "When Bill Clinton visited Bosnia, he gave me 35 minutes and our president, 27 minutes."

He related tales of the time when he resided in Sarajevo at the height of the civil war and how residents of the city had to survive without water, electricity and limited food supplies.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Sarajevo under siege was terrible. The city is surrounded by hills and then, they were filled with Serb snipers and rockets,Ã¢â‚¬Â said Pecanin

He said the UN had been lacking in law enforcement, stating their forces had Ã¢â‚¬Å“allowed Serbs to commit genocide in six safe zonesÃ¢â‚¬Â. According to Pecanin:

Ã¢â‚¬Å“We expected a lot from peace. But unfortunately for journalists, society after the war was not much easier, perhaps even worse. A lot of money provided by the Muslim countries (for rebuilding) ended up in the pockets of people like politicians.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Corruption, he said, was a permanent issue in his country. Dani has published stories on how the Bosnian embassy in Vienna (Austria) was selling passports to Al Qaeda members. The magazine also unearthed a scandal on how the country's former envoy to the UN was embezzling funds in order to continue with his gambling habit.

The country's top Islamic leader was also accused of not practising what he preaches. Pecanin accused him of "tolerating Wahhabism and being on the payroll of the Saudis".

Dani published a series of photographs of the Islamic leader up to mischief and the cover story bore his phone number as a sexual hotline. The irate and influential cleric then tried to have advertisements from various entities pulled, but all in vain.

We are forbidden to play music, they make our women cover themselves up, they call us infidels, say the fearful locals.

In the seemingly peaceful village of Barcici near Kalesija, several dozen families live in fear of the Wahhabis who gather in the village slaughterhouse, and whose leader is Jusuf Barcic.

Around thirty followers of Barcic's teachings bow in the slaughterhouse every day, while other locals go to the mosque, located several kilometres in the direction of Kalesija, for religious service, report Nezavisne novine.

Locals claim that several dozen Wahhabis from Travnik, Bocinja, Mostar, Ilijas, and other towns, gather in Barcici on weekends.

It is easy to recognize them as radical Islamists based on their appearance. Men have long beards and women have even their faces covered.

- The dead head will fall here. No one among us knows whether he or she will live to see the morning. When you are passing by the side of the road, he will hit you unless you get out of his way. He fears no one and says he only recognizes god's law Ã¢â‚¬â€œ say the frightened local inhabitants of Barcici.

They ask that all women cover themselves up

The locals say that, at night, the Wahhabis play cassettes in the slaughterhouse from military operations with recorded speeches of Alija Izetbegovic and Rasim Delic. Out of fear and because of the noise, they cannot sleep and, recently, about forty locals went to the police station to seek help.

The locals point out that Jusuf Barcic has been calling them infidels for years, that he asks all the local women to cover themselves up with scarves, that they are not allowed to play any kind of music in their homes, and that, at night, they hardly ever leave the houses.

Islamic community is lying

- The Islamic community is lying about having the Wahhabis under control. Barcic does what he wants here and no one can do anything to him. Here, take my house and find me a shed so that I can move away from here Ã¢â‚¬â€œ says Hana Kadric, a resident of Barcici.

They tried locking up the slaughterhouse and having the Islamic community use it for the education of children, the purpose for which it was designed.

To think that the former Ottoman territories in Europe are somehow part of Western European civilization is simply wishful thinking. Since the treaty of Berlin it has been abudantly clear that the European powers (including Holy Russia) see the people of the Balkans as nothing more than pawns on chessboard - expendable ones at that.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that "Christianity and ethnicity are what binds us with our European brothers." What ethnicity? Does this include Hungarians and Finnic people? What of Turkic people (many of whom have been living in Europe for centuries and are Christians)? Where does this leave Bulgarians? What about the large pockets of Islam that are geographically part of Europe - such as Tatarstan or Azerbajan (or even the far western parts of Kazakhstan)? While Christianity certainly has an important cultural and historical role in Europe, so does Judaism and to a lesser extent Islam. Furthermore none of the recent moves towards greater European unity have cited neither "Christianity" nor "ethnicity" as impetuses.

Southserb,

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Maybe not today, but that was also once true of Afghanistan and Iran.

Those cases have to be seen in context. Islamism was an expression of radical anti-colonial feeling - a domestic way opposed to being under the thumb of Soviet or American forces. Despite the poor leadership in Iran, there are many signs that the popularity of radical Islam is waning.

The situation in BiH is radically different. The war is over; a sense of stability is returning to the region. Even if/when Republika Srpska gets its independence, the Federacija will stay intact (I don't think Serbs will push it for more territory and the Croats are too weak of a force to break off since any overt help from Zagreb will cost quick entry into the EU). So in the long term it is very unlikely for radical Islam to take hold in BiH.

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Well, there are a lot of reasons for this, but the primary one is that the represent less than 5% of the Kosovo Albanian population and they have seen the result of what happened to those Albanians deemd sympathetic to Serbia. They don't have much choice in the matter.

They have all the choice in the world. It comes down to what my secularized Albanians friends have always been telling me - the only relgion for an Albanian is Albanianism. Their belief in Great Albania is of great importance than the ethical constraints of any other religion.

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My demographic numbers speak for themselves. Kosovo has has a TOTAL flip in population. Macedonia is en route to the same destination, ditto that for Bosnia and I think the proof is in the pudding.

Almost anything in the former Yugoslavia is atypical for Europe as a whole. Muslims in Western Europe are gastarbeiter that decided to stay, whereas in the Balkans the Muslims are by and large local populations that converted to Islam en masse centuries ago. The Kosovo demographic numbers also reflect a political situation that doesn't exist in Germany, France or the UK - Serbia proper breaking off from the Ottoman Empire and the flight of Muslims from that territory to Kosovo during the 19th century. Nor do they reflect that many Slavs were all too happy to leave Kosovo and Macedonia for the better farmland of Central Serbia and Vojvodina and the economic opportunities of Belgrade and beyond.

Furthermore, if you replace "Muslims" with Slavs and change a few place names you could make a compelling case that all of Western Europe should be living in terror that the Slavs are going to rape, torture and pillage them out of their dwellings and re-populate them entirely with Slavs. In fact the demographic changes in Silesia, the Sudetenland and along the Oder river have been far more complete, rapid and violent. Watch out for us West Slavs.

To think that the former Ottoman territories in Europe are somehow part of Western European civilization is simply wishful thinking.

I think you'll find that I never claimed anything of the sort. I in fact said this:

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Now there is definitely a distinction between Western and Eastern Europeans, and this is undeniable. Some historians consider us to be effectively two different civilizations: a Western one, and an Orthodox one.

Clearly Ottoman occupied territories are for the most part not Western European. But countries such as Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia are European. I find this discussion quite pointless in any case. I showed you that Europe is being Islamified. Clearly I am not for this. Now you have changed tact and instead of arguing that it is not being Islamified, you are attempting to convince me that I should not care about it being Islamified. It really would be quite petty and short-sighted if I were to fall for these divisive arguments which appeal not to our common bonds, but to our differences. Just because many Westerners see me as Turkic (according to you), I still don't want to see their once Christian nations become more and more Islamic. That type of logic is laughable.

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Since the treaty of Berlin it has been abundantly clear that the European powers (including Holy Russia) see the people of the Balkans as nothing more than pawns on chessboard - expendable ones at that.

Again you attempt to inspire a feeling of division. Again I'll repeat to you: we may have been wronged, but I still don't want to see an Islamified Europe surrounding Serbia. I am particularly sorry to see your implication that Russia has used us as expendable pawns. You can say or think what you like, but we still end up with your same tired old argument: 'All these European nations have used you, so why do you care if they succumb to Islam'. Ethnic and cultural bonds aside, you may as well ask me, why do you care if someone succumbs to lies. I care because I love the truth. Or you may as well ask me: 'Why do you care if a man is dispossessed of his property'. I care because I don't like to see injustice. And I don't like seeing this injustice being sold to me under fraudulent pretences as if we are about to enter a utopian age when just the opposite is true. The British may have wronged my nation but I am not going to applaud sad stories such as the following out of petty vindictiveness:http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1397

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I have no idea what you mean when you say that "Christianity and ethnicity are what binds us with our European brothers." What ethnicity?

You clearly have a fairly good idea about what I mean, you just don't agree with me and want to sidetrack the debate. I'll take the bait though this once. Europeans have common racial bonds, some closer than others obviously. Germanic peoples such as the Germans and Anglo-Saxons are closer to each other than they are to Slavic peoples. Even so the biggest differences between European nations are nothing compared to the differences between an African and a European. There is an ethnic bond between Serbs and Russians which doesn't exist between Serbs and Australian aborigines. Race is isn't everything, but its not nothing. Africans deserve self-determination and self-preservation in their own ancestral lands, Europeans have the right to the same.

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Does this include Hungarians and Finnic people?

The Hungarian and Finnish languages are not of European origin. But the people themselves and their present day culture are European. The original Bulgarians were not a European people, but they melted into a sea of Slavs and are for all intents and purposes European today.

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What about the large pockets of Islam that are geographically part of Europe - such as Tatarstan or Azerbajan (or even the far western parts of Kazakhstan)?

They are geographically part of Europe, but they are not European nations or cultures. Just as Turkey is partially in Europe but is not a European nation.

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While Christianity certainly has an important cultural and historical role in Europe, so does Judaism and to a lesser extent Islam.

Do you seriously believe that I care one iota what the EU's stance on indigenous Europeans or Christianity is? I consider it a vile, secular, politically correct, globalist, multicultural, anti-European project. If you're going to undermine the Christian identity of this continent, or deny the common ancestral roots of its people then do so with some historic evidence. You might as well say, Eastern Europe's recent moves have been towards legalizing abortions. Is that going to convince me that my anti-abortion stance is wrong? You would need to explain to me the positive implications of this recent move in order for me to evaluate the relative merits of it. Instead you appeal to a notion for no other reason that a group of people are pushing for it. I've already made clear to you my disdain for democracy so why would I care what the majority get up to or think? And quite frankly the unelected elite in Brussels are doing anything but acting for the majority in any case. The majority of EU citizens do not want a political union, but the EU is attempting to force a constitution down their throats, because they of course know better.

A little review of some of the topics you have raised in order to avoid addressing the core issue:(i)how un-European Hungarians are(ii)how Westerners think Serbs are Turkic(iii)how badly Russia treated Serbs(iv)what the EU stance on Christianity is(v)the important cultural role of Islam in Europe(vi)pretending that you're not aware of any common ethnic ties between Europeans.

After all these smokescreens are you going to return to the original issue which is: Is Europe being Islamified?. Once we've established that then we can debate the relative merits of Islam.

A human-rights activist dedicated to debunking the overpopulation myth says even the German government admits that a low birth rate and Islamic immigration may forever change the face of the German nation. The Germans, he says, have nobody to blame but themselves.

German journalist and university lecturer Udo Ulfkotte recently warned that Islam is slowly but surely taking a grip on the European culture. He said more and more institutions are making allowances for Muslims, and even Islamic "sharia" law is beginning to take hold because 40 percent of Germany's Muslims are convinced the country's constitution is incompatible with Islam.

Steve Mosher, president of the Population Research Institute, says while he mourns the loss of Christian Europe, he says the demographic changes there are the result of the fact that two generations ago, Europeans "lost their way." He contends that their refusal to have children has paved the way for the eventual Islamic domination of the continent. And with a much higher birth rate among Muslims, it is easy how Islamic influence will continue to grow in Germany, he says.

"If one people has babies and the other doesn't, the shift in population can occur in the blink of an eye," he shares. "The loss of Christian Europe is not being caused by Muslims; it's being caused by the fact Europeans lost their way."

Mosher explains his rationale. "These people have chosen to abandon God; they've chosen not to read the Good Book, which says that children are blessings -- and the end result is that they won't survive," the Institute leader says. "The future belongs to those who welcome children."

And unless there is "a great revival from one end of the continent to the other," says Mosher, those differential birth rates will likely cause Muslims to become the majority in Europe over the next century

Mosher notes that even the German government has acknowledged that there are so few young Germans that the country is doomed to "demographic decline," to see its numbers cut virtually in half over the course of the rest of the century.

After all these smokescreens are you going to return to the original issue which is: Is Europe being Islamified?. Once we've established that then we can debate the relative merits of Islam.

No. In the last hundred years Islam has dramatically been losing territory and influence in Europe. The groups that have established a relatively small amount of political power in the Balkans are not a case of Islamification as the populations in question (Islamic Albanians and Bosnian Muslims) have been Muslims and dwelling on those lands for centuries. Even today they posses far less importance politically than European territory of the Ottoman Empire less than a hundred years ago.

As for the flow of Gastarbeiter into Germany and inhabitants from the from the former colonies in the case of the UK and France - there is no reason to assume they won't be as secularized as the native populations within fifty to a hundred years. There will be growing pains for sure, but with the proper integration most of those will solve themselves.

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Just because many Westerners see me as Turkic (according to you), I still don't want to see their once Christian nations become more and more Islamic.

The irony I brought up was a bit more sutble and seems to have been lost. The Europeans whom you are so valiently trying to save from Islamic immigrants in their nations, think no more highly of Yugoslav immigrants than Turks, Algerians or Pakistanis.

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They are geographically part of Europe, but they are not European nations or cultures. Just as Turkey is partially in Europe but is not a European nation.

So why are the Kazan Tatars not a European culture? Geographically they are well within Europe and have been strongly Russified since being conquered centries ago? If the only reason they aren't culturally European is their nominal Islamic faith - are the Chuvash and other Turkic groups who are Christians thus European? What of Gypsies who are Christians? Your definition of using a combination of Christianity and geography is very sloppy in regards to such groups. The irony that I am getting at in all of this, is that if you are using such cultural measures many elitists in the West would not include the Balkans as part of their vision of European culture in the same way that you decide to drop groups whom you dislike.

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Do you seriously believe that I care one iota what the EU's stance on indigenous Europeans or Christianity is? I consider it a vile, secular, politically correct, globalist, multicultural, anti-European project.

The people that I hear seriously talking about a pan-European culture and greater unity in Europe tend to be non-religious secularists. Their motivations for desiring European (or there definition thereof) unity almost always stems from economic and political interests. The mythology they use to spin this almost always is about common democratic traditions and such - never about ethnicity nor religion. That is why I find it odd that you are clamouring so much about some vague notion of a pan-European culture and religion.

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And quite frankly the unelected elite in Brussels are doing anything but acting for the majority in any case. The majority of EU citizens do not want a political union, but the EU is attempting to force a constitution down their throats, because they of course know better.

You really could write for the BBC. But thanks for making my point that the actual people who are pushing for European unity aren't doing so on the grounds of ethnicity and religion.

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What important and positive cultural role has Islam played in Europe?

Where to start? Trade and the transfer of knowledge with Islamic Spain was very beneficial to Europe. Even the Ottoman Empire brought a lot to Europe. The Tatars have a very interesting culture and literary tradition. They also served an important role in keeping trade links alive between the Far East, Central Asia and Russia. And before everyone gets their panties in a bunch over the Ottoman Empire being portrayed positively - consider, was it really that much better for Orthodox Christians under the Hapsburg Monarchy or towards the end of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?