LIES BEYOND LIES and MANIPULATION

Dawn - posted on 01/05/2010
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HI...I have a 14 yr old he will be 15 in 3 wks...he is a compulsive liar...the lies are so big that he gets the school involved and police have been called ....he lies about EVERYTHING i cant believe anything he says ..NOTHING...i dont know what to do..im so frustrated and exausted from talking screaming punishing ..nothing is working...im going to try counseling buthonestlyio dont think it will work..he is a manipulator..he knows what to say to people so they believe him...please any suggestions...i honestly dont know what to do!!!

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Rachel - posted on 01/05/2010

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my daughter is a master manipulator too.....and so was her father...ive often wondered how she came to be like that when her father was never around. Ive always stressed honesty in my house with my children. Ive tried to have a "no secrets, no lies" policy in my house, but when the kids reached their teenage years, all bets were off. I can count on 50% of whatever comes out my daughters mouth to be a complete lie and 80% of the shit she does is an attempt to manipulate someone. I have had her medicated, unmedicated, committed, counseled, locked up......ive followed through with every piece of advice ive been given with her but it doesnt stop. I have no answers for you honey since im still trying to figure out the answers for my own. But i want you to know you are not alone. It sucks to not be able to trust that what your child says is the truth...ive been in positions where im expected to defend her, but even I suspect she's lying and thats hard to handle. Best of luck to you.

I think if you take a step back and realize that to a teen, telling lies to their parents isn't really lieing, everyone does it, and so on, then maybe you won't take it so personally. I think with a teen you need to try to have a sense of humor, and let them know right away that you are on to them when it comes to day to day lies like where are you going? who will you be with? when will you be home? expect to get lied to in all of those situations. Now, sometimes they step it up a notch and lie in ways that get them into serious trouble. One time when my daughter was in 7th grade (she just turned 16), I got a call from her middle school councelor to come right away. When I got there the cops were there and I see my daughter sitting by herself in the councellors office. Turns out a she had passed a note in class earlier that day that said something along the lines of "I was raped last night"... The teacher had confiscated the note, read it, then sent her to the councellor. After I spoke to my daughter alone she confessed to me that the note was a joke, and she did not mean she was ACTUALLY raped, it was just a slang term, and so forth, but that she was so embarrassed about getting caught passing that note she fabriacated a story to her councellor about actually being raped on her way home from school the previous day and even showed the cops a bruise on her arm, and gave them a description of a guy, and everything!! I could not believe she had done that!!! I wanted to strangle her! I had to explain to the cops and the councellor what had happened, and they already knew that her "story" didn't add up. It was so hard though because if that really had happened the last think I would want her to feel is that I didn't believe her! But you could just tell she was lying, and at least she trusted me enough in the situation to come clean. Now, she is 16 and still a huge pain in my ass, still lies, steals cigarettes from me, and even poured herself a drink one night when I accidently left a bottle of rum on the counter after my husband and I had been entertaining some friends. So, she is far from the super perfect teen. She struggles in school, she has an alcoholic for a dad that wants nothing to do with her, she wants so much to be grown and independant, but can't find a job anywhere so far in this economy. It sucks. To make it worse, she and my husband do not get along at all, and he can't stand being around her because she lies and speaks disrespectfully a lot of the time. I just know, no matter what, this is not how she will always be. Knowing that this is her normal growing phase, reminds me that I need to keep this in perspective, not let it ruin my life, do what I can to keep her safe, and most of all let her know every day that I love her and I believe in her. That is all I can do. The rest is up to her, and her developing conscience, and the friends she has already lost because of her lies, and the ones she will lose in the future if she doesn't start to learn the importance of honesty. I have done councelling, psychiatry for Bi-Polar, medications, etc. Some of those things seemed to make things a little better for her, but most of all what she taught me was that when I was taking her to councellors and so forth I was completely focused on her, and that was what helped her more than anything. I realized that I work full time and am very dedicated to my carreer, I had a new husband, a new baby, and I was totally back-burnering her because I was so tired and had to divide myself between so many other people. Worst of all I did that when she was dealing with the fact that her parents had gotten divorced, her dad moved away, and then I meet someone else, and got pregnant right away. I made a lot of bad choices back then, and she reacted to them the only way she knew how. She learned at a very early age from her father, that if she wanted attention from him all she had to do was do something naughty and he would stop what he was doing to spank her, or yell at her. So that has carried on into her teens now. Again, it sucks, but it is not permanent. I know that I am a good role model for her, I know she has a good heart and a good soul in there somewhere, and most of all I know she is not equipped with the skills or resources to support herself or live independantly of me just yet. Today most kids are not ready until they are in their 20's. The cost of living is just too high, and the economy is too unpredictable. Our teens are competing with 40 year olds for jobs at Target. I can't blame my kid for that. Your kids will not be this way forever either. They all will apologize to us some day as long as we don't do anything totally unforgivable now like kicking them out of our homes and our lives during a time when they needed us more than ever. I think of the Bible poem footprints when the man felt the whole world was crashing down around him and that was the time in his life when he only saw the one set of footprints and wondered why Jesus had turned his back on him, but Jesus said that it was during those times that he was carrying him. These are our babies, and they are crying out for us to carry them. Just because they are 16, or 18 or even 25 does not mean that they should have this life thing all figured out yet. They don't! They need our help, but their pride gets in the way and so they lie and lie to cover their miserable attempts to figure it out on their own, then when it all comes crashing down around them, they lie some more because they don't want to admit they were wrong. Just "SEE" them. Try to find out the message behind the lies. Like one of the posters above, I was a straight A student right up until my senior year of high school. I had an older brother that was always in trouble and was the focus of my parents, so my parents just "assumed" that I was the good kid and they didn't have to pay as much attention to me because I was such a good kid compared to my brothers. Then my senior year I snapped, I stared to rebel for a lot of reasons. Mostly I used my older brother as an excuse, he got to do it, so why can't I? He stayed out till 3am and my parents didn't kill him, so I can too, etc. Well, the real reason for my behaviour was that I was having sex with my boyfriend, and sure enough I got pregnant before the end of my senior year. My parents thought it was the end of the world and made me go to councelling for adoption because they didn't think I could handle it. I had gotten good enough grades to be accepted into Pepperdine University, but my parents still didn't think I could handle college with a baby. I did manage to convince my dad to let me go to a semester of college while I was pregnant to see how it went. Getting pregnant changed me, as it does every woman, it doesn't matter how old you are. I suddenly wanted to well in school again, now for my baby and our future. I told my parents I would not be giving my baby up for adoption, but would be keeping her AND going to college. They ended up being the most supportive of me after my daughter was born, and were pleasantly surprised that not only did I grow out of that crazy teen time of rebellion, and not only did I surprise them by choosing to be a mom and keep my baby, but I was and still am a great mom, I graduated from college, I make a great income doing a job that I love. They would be proud of me if they were still alive. Life is short. Hold your children close to you and carry them through the tough times in their life. Know that when they treat you the worst is when they need you the most, so find out one way or another what they are up to. Maybe they secretly WANT you to ground them to keep them away from a tempting situation like drugs or drinking or sex, but they are scared to tell their friends or the peer pressure is too overwhelming, so they pick a fight with you because they want to get into trouble so they can use the excuse that they are grounded. No matter what, we are all just parents that were dealt the kids we have. We did not pick them out from a store, we were given them for a reason, and we are the right parents for the kids we were given. We are not bad parents because sometimes it feels like our child doesn't measure up to other people's kids. But we don't know their kids, or what their kids futures will be. Those so called perfect kids that we gaze at enviously at parent teacher conferences, may just turn out to be crooks that scam people for money just because they had good grades and got into good schools, who knows? We can only raise our own kids and try to ignore other people's kids in the process. One more thing, I will admit that over the past year I was at my wits end to the point of looking into military schools. Here is what I learned about those: First of all they cost between $3000-$6000 per month!!!! I don't know very many people that could ever afford that. The people that can, are very wealthy. So I talked to my friend whose very wealthy parents sent her to a boarding school in high school because of the same things we are all complaining about with our teens, and she told me that boarding school in Arizoina was where she learned about cocaine. That it was all a buch of rich kids that had become masters at pulling one over on the people running those schools, and they would all sneak off and do lines of coke. Had she never gone there she would have never been exposed to cocaine because it is so expensive she would have never been able to get her hands on it normally. So, to that idea I finally realized that my daughter is not going anywhere, no matter how bad it sucks right now, I can't call myself a mother if I turn her to the streets when she needs me the most. She and I communicate very well now, and I refuse to nag her, I tell her what she needs to do for chores, show her by example how she should speak, and when she slips I let her know, then move on to being happy and trying to let her know I care and am proud of her. It is a slow climb, but I know she will be a woman some day and will one day say to me "mom, I am so sorry I was such a jerk to you when I was growing up. Thank You for still loving me anyways and for always being there for me." I am 34 years old, and I need my mom every day. But she died when I was 27. I still need her advice, but I can't have it anymore. Our daughters (and sons) need us now, and they will still need us ten years from now.

Teenager lie, they are the best at it. Couseling probably isn't the best thing right now, he's waiting on you, he may not realize it, but he is. Spend as much time with him as you can. Gotta stop the screaming and nagging, his ears just close up. Talk to him in a calm loving way. Tell him you don't like what he is doing but will love him no matter what. Take him to dinner and the movies, help him with his homework, get involved in something he likes to do. Tell him all the wonderful things in life you want for him and let him know that you will help him achieve whatever dreams he has for himself. He has to learn trust and learn how to respect it. Tell him you want to trust him and allow for opportunities to do so. Praise him when he does the right things. Don't put his friends down, try to get to know them. I keep my sons friends close. They hang out at our house more than anywhere. He really doesn't want to hurt you, he just doesn't think you understand him or really hear him. He thinks his friends really listen and care more than you. Got to keep him as close to you as possible without smothering him. They don't like to feel guilty, and when you are dishing out lots of love, understanding, trust and care, he'll start to feel guilty and stop some of the bad things he does or says. Your time,love and understanding is the most precious thing to him. I promise. Last but not least, pray. Hang in there, don't throw up your hands. He is worth the work.

You're not alone. My 15-yr-old stepson has lied about pretty much anything and everything, even when there wasn't a point to it, just about since he was old enough to talk. And as he has grown, he has become a master manipulator and doesn't seem to have respect for anyone, though he can sure turn on the charm if he wants something. He just recently went back to live with his mom whom my husband and I are afraid will not be able to handle him. All we can do is hope that we have laid a good foundation that he will be able to fall back on someday when he gets through these years and pray that he won't do anything that will permanently affect his life. There comes a point where you have to let go no matter how badly it tears you up inside.

Dawn, we on the same boat but, mines is a 13 an a girl, she lies about the lies she told me is so bad that most of the times I just find myself completly ignoring her, all I can say is that it may just be a stage of growing up and hopefully eventually they will see that their lies are hurting our relationships and that is just not right to be labeled as a lier. Try counseling it has helped a little in my family situation

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Anares08 - posted on 12/14/2014

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You are not alone. At least yours is a teenager. My son is only 11 and he's a master manipulator, a liar and a thief. I'm at my wits end with him. I'm so tired and frustrated. After reading your post I realizeNothing will ever change. I feel like I've tried every approach with him and nothing works. I've even had a cop lecture him and still nothing. He gets worse and worse everyday that goes by. My kids have a nice home and a good upbringing. My daughter who is 15 Is a great child and my son is the exact opposite. I've thought about sending him away but it costs too much. I'm lost and confused about him. He does have ADHD but I don't think that's an excuse for all his bad behavior ! He knows right from wrong! Anyway if anyone has any ideas I'm open to hear them or try them if I haven't already.

I can relate. My son lies about everything. It amazes me how he is great in school, but comes home and does not want to clean up, or take showers. I have tried everything and i am almost at my breaking point. I lost my job because they shut down. His father hasn't paid me child support since he has been born, but being that his father has a job now, he throws that in my face alot. I have did everything that i could do to take care of him by myself and he does not appreciate anything. I continue to remind him that it could be worse. I know a lot of mothers that do not take care of their children, the way i do mines. I am thinking about bringing him to church and also counseling.

Oh how I wish I knew the answer... My son is 15, an honor student and has a 4.0 his freshman year of high school. Y step daughter on the other hand is the biggest liar, thief I know and NOTHING seems to be working!! NOTHING! We are trying therapy right now, but she was just put into group instead of one on one and now her lies are getting bigger. We have had CPS at our house due to her lies, and she has stolen from my son and her own mother. She doesn't seem to care about ANYTHING!! My husband and I are at a loss and his heart is breaking. I wish I had the magic remedy because I would use it myself!! She has now been told she is no longer allowed at her own mothers house due to her stealing... If ANYONE knows what I can do, PLEASE HELP!! She has been caught smoking, lying, stealing, and bullying. She is failing the 7th grade and doesn't seem to care about any of it! We are on the verge of military school!! Any suggestions??

I have a daughter who is 14 and another that is 11 (a son too that is 8). My 14 yo was so bad when she was in sixth grade (junior high) that she told the school that I was beating her just because she was mad at me. She would lie all of the time and manipulate everyone.

Like others, her Father is the same way and he is not in her life. Is some of it genetics? Probably so but I agree with those who stated that when our children turn teens they seem to search for independence and they are not grown enough to figure out how to get it without lying.

It was tough with my 14 yo. I had to stay super firm, help her face consequences, and praise her when she did something good. After 1 day at homeles shelter, 2 weeks at a milatry family's home, phone being taken away multiple times, door off the bedroom, grounded for life lol she started to get it.

Now she knows that I will go to the ends of the earth to help her become a healthy and decent person. Does she still lie? Yes, but she knows that I will ALWAYS find out and it is not as bad as it use to be.

My 11 yo daughter is starting now but I remind her of my 14 yo and ask her if this is the road she wants to go down because I WILL GO THERE! She looks at it and decides not too!

Be strong and remember that their brains are not fully functionable yet LOL

My daughter did that too she is 19 now and has actually started confessing all her lies she told me most i knew about. there is no right or wrong way to deal with it. I just started sticking my nose into every aspect of her life. I checked her cell phone, her internet history, if she said she was going to say stay after school for homework center i had them call me if she showed up or not if she lied i would go to the school and find her. I checked every story she told me. she couldnt go to a friends house unless i talked to the parent first and i kept her prisoner in the house when she was caught in a lie.Pretty soon she started to realize i was relentless and started telling me the truth about most things. teenager are master manipulators and liars they get advice from their friends,. I even arranged to go to school and go to everyone of her classes if i had to so i could make sure she was actually going. its tough having a teenager they suck the life right out of you. but he needs to learn now that its not acceptable or when he gets older he is going to have it way rougher than having his mom in his business

This is for Kim McKinley -- I'm sorry to hear of your child going astray. When it comes to dealing with drugs/alcohol, there's no comprehending rational thinking. Trust your instincts about your suspicisions. Maybe or maybe not your child wants help or is at least crying out for it. When the child is out of the house, it's hard to watch them self-destruct. Maybe they are stubborn and will learn the hard way before they turn their life around. Just be there for them when they do fall and don't criticize or condemn. Love them irregardless, but that doesn't mean you have to like the things they do!! Get help for yourself on getting the facts of this behavior so you have more knowledge and support from others like you. Remember that if you raised them with loving arms unconditionally, your child will have the tools they need but they may not choose to use them just yet and because they are living this awful life doesn't make you a bad parent.

I dont have any suggestions per say just wanted to let you know your not alone. My daughter is the same age and has been a liar her whole live ( we have had her since she was three) But she gets mad at us when we dont beleive her about anything. Im going to read some replies you got for any suggestions myself. Hang in there..

It is unbeilivable,,,,,,and when its happening you feel hopeless...hurt.....i could go on...but some how you do get over it and move on..the thing i find the hardest is when people you have know for years dont believe that your child is lieing and think the worst of you and you cant prove your not doing the things they say!!!!!

my son was the same.we did everything ,counseling but he turned it around. then he left home telling a whole lot of lies about family.now i can't beleive a word he says its really sad..hes lost work over it friends i dont think there is an answer just be they when there world of make beleive comes crashing down its hard just hang in there.

I'm struggling with the same thing, not to the extent that you're dealing with, but lies about did he or did he not do his homework, something we can easily find out by looking on line. I think he thinks it's just easier to tell the lie than the truth. What I keep trying to impress upon him is whatever the issue, it's, oh, so much worse if he's caught in a lie. I think he is truly trying to do better, but it can be very frustrating.

My heart goes out to you. Hang in there. Your child is precious...underneath all the lies. I would highly recommend the book Parenting Your Out of Control Teenager. It helped me get my daughter's life back under control when she started down this path. It has concrete suggestions for how to parent, what to do when nothing else works, how to galvanize other people to help you get your child to behave, and what and how to take things away from your child. I felt helpless, upset, like a terrible mother and all that, but this book really helped. I turned my life totally upside down for 3 weeks, but she is making better choices now.

Wow...I'm so glad I came to this thread......I have felt so alone and lost and to be honest like a total failure as a mom (the most important purpose of my life). Reading all of your responses made me cry to be honest......So here's my story.......My oldest daughter is 18, up until 8 months ago I thought she was one of the best kids a parent could have! High honor roll all through school, responsible, helpful, trustworthy, loving, respectful, funny..........I was so proud of her and bragged on her, she had the most freedom & trust out of the other kids in the house because we "thought" she had earned it. I had invisioned this beautiful amazing human being and what a great relationship we were getting ready to go into as she became an adult, and what a bright future she had ahead of her. It all came crashing down around me after she turned 18. Apparently it had been one heck of a front for years and I had no clue. First I noticed that she started becoming bolder with talking back and arguing with me...not that she hadn't done it before, but it was becoming a lot more aggressive even when I would warn her she was crossing the line. She was also getting in the habit of coming home an hour late past curfew, or conveniently forgetting to call when she was supposed to call and check in with me, not answering calls or texts from me. Shame on me for the times that I would tell her that it was not acceptable and not to happen again and left it at that...don't get me wrong, I don't put up with a lot and very quick to put the kids in their place and will be strict when it comes to disrespecting me or rules. But I was guilty of letting some things slide when the bigger picture was that all and all I had a good kid.....so I own that. It is an understanding in my house that if you smart off to mom or dad and raise your voice you will be warned and if you continue don't be surprised if you get a slap. I know there are going to be many parents out there who don't agree with it...but let me put this out there, I was a product of abusive parents...so I have a full understanding of what it is to cross the line and abuse a child. Had my parents given me a simple slap or spanking on the butt I would have been grateful. That being said, I have worked very hard at finding a happy medium in parenting, teaching them right from wrong, honesty, loyalty, respect, appreciation, selflessness, responsibility all the qualities that make a good human being, and at the same time allowing them to be individuals both mentally and in appearance ( age appropriate of course), have opinions and speak them (respectfully), and keeping the door open for communication at all times and I have always been very open-minded and willing to discuss anything. So back to the story....just before she turned 18 she was working a part time job at a grocery store. I was driving her back and forth almost daily & told her she needed to start giving me gas money and that really ticked her off so I told her if she didn't like that, then maybe she should check into what it would cost for her to take a taxi....so of course she gave up the gas money but made it very clear she didn't think it was fare. Then little things kept going on as I mentioned before, the disrespectful attitudes, breaking rules...and one day I asked her if she would pick up more orange juice and some cat food since she worked at a grocery store and she was the main person to drink the juice...you'd have thought I asked her to cut off an arm or something...I had a conversation with her father over the behavior that was going on, and the fact that she was getting ready to turn 18 and she hadn't saved a dime of the money that she made in over a year, she just blew it on herself, didn't contribute to the house or family (when we were struggling to put food on the table for a family of 6) and he suggested that she start paying rent. It would teach her to bugget her money and prepare her for the real world....I agreed but also threw in a "student discount" and said that a percentage of what she paid I would put away for when she was ready to do her own thing. This totalled $165 a month....the break down was a 6th of mortg. and a 6th of groceries. Everyone I spoke to agreed this was more than fare, and we had another 18 year old that agreed to paying rent and she was out of school and didn't get the discount and had no problem with it! So we brought it to my daughter and she was irrate and didn't think it was right. Her behavior got worse after this and after a week of her coming in late, leaving all the time being rude to me...we had words and as I was getting ready to walk out of her room she continued to raise her voice and cuss at me and I turned around and asked her if she was seriously going to continue speaking to me that way and she stepped up and put her chest to mine and continued raising her voice over mine....this led to me slapping her in the face and in return she hit me back giving me a bloody nose and we went at it ending in me taking her down. I couldn't believe what had just happened! But I was not about to let an 18 year old physically bigger than me living under my roof behave this way. Keep in mind I'm 5.2 and weigh 105lbs....she's got height and weight over me. So that evening I did a lot of talking and crying and sat down and wrote her a letter telling her how I felt about what had happened and that wasn't how I wanted things to be between her and I. We talked and ended up apologizing and laughing and got through it. A month later my husband and I went to a gig the night before Mother's Day, (we're in a cover band) that night my younger daughter 13 at the time had 2 of her girlfriends spend the night and my 18 year old was home as well. The 18 year old asked if her boyfriend could come over for a bit so she could make dinner for him and talk...I had no problem with that because I was under the understanding that she was still not sexually active yet....and yes we had already covered all of that and gone through it with my husband's 18 year old daughter who had just become sexually active a few months before...the understanding was that we were proud that they waited as long as they had...use protection, be responsible, and no sex in our house. Any way, we came home and noticed that there had been a bottle of alchohal wich had been hidden was suddenly in plain site...so we got everyone together and did the interrogation thing....my youngest came clean and admitted there had been 3 boys in our house and the boys were drinking. So needless to say we were not pleased and very concerned so I called the mom over of the two girls that were here and we both had a long discussion with them about why this was wrong and what could have happened....and the whole time I'm looking at my 18 year old asking why she didn't call me when the boys came over or tell them herself to leave...her response..."I thought as long as I kept an eye on them it would be ok"....so she made an adult decision to go against house rules....put her sister and someone else's daughters at risk....and obviously was NOT keeping an eye on things! Any number of things could have happened. Needless to say everyone was grounded and priveledges were stripped. That was not how I wanted my Mother's day to go. So two days later I'm having a discussion with my 13 year old about sex again and what could have happened and I'm using my 18 year old as an example of how she was waiting...then I noticed as I'm talking there was some serious body language going on so I stopped and asked her if that was her way of telling me that I was wrong about her sister not having sex...she confirmed and went on to tell me that the sister and boyfriend were busy having sex when everything else was going on.....and that she had walked in on them the first time they tried!!! We finished our talk and I proceeded to share this information with my husband and the girls father. I asked the father to come over so we could sit down with our daughter and and have a discussion and figure out how this was going to be delt with. It came down to this, she was stripped of trust, no longer was she getting any breaks on the rent as I had been giving her on a regular basis, don't ask me for favors like rides to her friends or to be picked up, I took the phone that her father paid for, and basically told her if she was going to make adult decisions then she would have adult responsibilities. A day or two later she comes home from school, we chat, I ask what time she needs to be at work she says she's going to walk...(nothing new, figured she was playing the martyr as she has always done), asked what time she was done and she said she had her friend picking her up so I wouldn't have to worry about it and she'd be home right after. Cool.....hugs kisses...love you...see you after work. Other daughter comes home from school and comes out of her bedroom with a letter that the sister had written and placed on her bed stating that she found somewhere to stay for awhile and that there was too much tension and she thought it be best to not be here for awhile....I gave her that night and the next day to think about what she was doing...met up with her after work to talk and see what her intentions were....she tells me that she plans on staying with her friend until she can get money saved up to move out on her own.....( the parents had no idea of this) and she still had another year of high school to finish. Four months of blowing off her own family, not returning calls, later moving in with another friends family, quitting her job and basically running around and doing whatever she wanted and not contributing to where she was staying, the mom and I started communicating almost daily. I started finding out that my daughter was telling people that she was abused, all the money she made was taken from her, and she was never allowed to go anywhere or do anything....I couldn't believe my ears! The mom admitted that before she met me, she fell for it...even went so far as to let my daughter get a cell phone on her family package......and the only stipulation that was given was that she needed to communicate with me and the family once a day by phone, email, or visit and work on our relationship.....the mom quickly realized that my daughter was lying to her and not upholding to the agreement. This poor woman was crying with me and couldn't sleep because she was at a loss as to what to do to help the situation. I told her it wasn't her problem and I appreciated her trying to help but it was just prolonging my daughter from learning anything or from having any consequences for her choices. The mom was on the verge of telling her she had to leave when school started back up and I had a meeting with my daughter to find out what her plans were because if she wasn't going to come back home then I was not going to be responsible for her school fees...she said she would pay it and didn't want to come home. Within 2 weeks I get a phone call from school saying that the other mom had called in sick for my daughter and that they could not accept it from anyone but me. I explained the situation and they told me that regardless I was responsible for her attendance, fees and behavior....So I had another meeting with my daughter and the mom.....told her she had a choice, come home and finish school...no rent, no chores, but there was a curfew and if she couldn't make it in time, I wanted a phone call and she better have somewhere to stay for the night, she was responsible for personal needs including food...she could buy her own or she could give me money every week and was welcome to whatever I bought. If she didn't come home I would go to the school and sign whatever was necissary to removed myself from legal responsibility. And the mom and myself did checking into immansipation and since she was still in high school and could not prove she was capable of taking care of herself it would be thrown out of court. She made the choice to come home....I thought things were going good and in a month one of her teachers called over the weekend telling me that she had turned in a 3 page exam completely blank accept her name and no explaination. The teacher offered to let her come in early the following Monday to retake the test...when I spoke to my daughter about it, she tried to lie to me so I put her on the phone with the teacher and her story changed real quick. This led to her copping an attitude and coming up with excuse after excuse of why she didn't do anything to help herself....."she doesn't like confrontation" was her reasoning for why she didn't go to the teacher to ask for help....but yet since she had been home she had left every day to hang out with her friends and she seemed to have no problem with making arrangements when it came to her social life. She started getting argumentive and acting like "I" was the bad guy in this...I told her she needed to grow up and take responsibility for her actions and if she wasn't going to be prepared for the test then to call the teacher and tell him not to waste his time. She stomped off and was slamming things around in her room, so my husband asked her politely not to slam things around and she began yelling at him so he walked away...then she proceeded to come out and yell at me and got confrontational and I told her I was not going to ague with her and told her to lower her voice several times and she continued and threw out there that she was pissed and I was being a bitch...I finally told her to shut the F up and she told me not to tell her to shut up and that she didn't want to be here so I told her leave then! Within 10 minutes her friends were here to pick her up. I went outside and told her if she wasn't home by that Sunday night I was going to the school to do whatever I had to and she told me "fine". I then asked the girls to come in and talk to me so that they would know the whole story of what just went down because I wasn't going to go through the game of her telling her lies and sob stories to try to gain pitty....they proceeded to come in to talk. My daughter was freaking out on this and was begging the girls not to go in the house. So we all went in and I told them what just happened and the whole time my daughter was trying to talk over me and arguing and then threw out there that she didn't think she should be told to shut the F up so I asked one of the girls if they had been in the same situation how would they have handled it.....she said she would have said the same thing I did....so my daughter continued to run her mouth and we politely said to the girls that it might be a good time to leave and I reminded her one more time about if she didn't come home. I haven't seen or spoken to her since. I did go into school the following Monday and spoke with her councelor who informed me that he had been trying to get my daughter to meet with him to discuss her senior year and college and she had blown him off. Then I spoke to the Dean and he pulled up all her classes and it turned out she was failing all classes accept Phys. Ed. The school felt they had no other choice but to back me up given the situation and her lack of effort, so I had her withdrawn. I couldn't believe that her whole school career she had done so amazingly well, and then decided her SENIOR year just to piss it all away! The councelor asked if I thought drugs were involved and I told them of the discussion that we had a couple of weeks before where she admitted that she had smoked pot a couple of times and tried beer but didn't like it....In the last couple of months I have found out even more things that I was not aware of that she had lied about.....like the fact that she had gotten my 13 year old high twice...and had friends over and drinking when we were not home.....she still continues to tell her lies to gain pitty from anyone she comes in contact with. I have remained in good communications with her friends and the ones that she grew up with that now know the whole story she does not hang out with anymore...I see pictures of her partying on facebook...and she has yet to take any responsibility for any of the decisions she has made. The whole time all of this has been going on she has used her father because he's the "nice guy" that feels guilty because he is gone most of the time due to work...and if he has nothing to offer her then she blows him off as well. My daughter has reached out several times telling her she loves and misses her and is blown off. She was made to feel guilty and was blaimed by her sister for "telling" on her. My stepdaughter told me a couple months back about a night that she and my daughter went out together and they supposed to see a movie but instead went and picked up some pot and went to a park to smoke it....this night I remember very well because when they got back they weren't late and we didn't suspect anything and my daughter came in the house first and started going off and acting mad and told us what they went and did and actually poor on the tears going on how she wanted nothing to do with it and how pissed she was that they involved her in that when she doesn't even smoke...so of course the step-daughter walked in to being thrown under the bus and was given hell for what they did and the fact that she involved my daughter in it who wanted nothing to do with it. So she caught twice the crap and never opened her mouth to tell the truth that is was my daughter's idea in the first place and that she had indeed been smoking that night.......I couldn't believe it! She said she just decided not to be a rat and realized at that moment what my daughter's game was and was done with her. As a mom, I would have liked to have known the truth at the time....but as a person....I had a lot of respect for her to keep her mouth shut and listen to us go off on her....I would have busted the girl on the spot if she had done that to me! LOL I could go on about how much more I found out...but I won't....this is already a book! But what it boils down to is that I didn't even know my own daughter....I was so snowed by her innocent good girl act that I never saw any of it! I went for months asking what the hell I had done wrong....but I kept coming up with the same answer....I raised her right.....I taught her right from wrong, I gave her the tools to make good decisions with, I've loved her unconditionally and she has made her own decisions......now she has to learn for herself......unfortunately she hasn't been in a position to pay any prices or have any consequences because she has manipulated people so that she has somewhere to stay and lies to them enough that they think she's a victim and trying to get her life together....she just got kicked out of the place she's been at since she left and now her father has put the burden on his X-Girlfriend to offer her somewhere to stay for awhile....and she still isn't working, doesn't have a car, and all she seems to be concerned about is hanging out with her boyfriend and partying.......The four months that she left the first time about killed me....I was consumed with it. Went to bed crying and got up crying......when she left the second time....it still hurt....but this time I was stronger. Sitting back and putting the ball in her court and letting her learn her own lessons in the world has been one of the hardest things I've ever done......but I'm constantly reminded that it's the best thing I can do in this situation....I want to reach out so bad....but this was her choice....I just hope that she wakes up and deals with reality sooner than later. I think about all that can happen to her out there....she's not on the pill if she's not working, which means she could get pregnant....she's going out of state with guys she hardly knows and that REALLY scares me.......I miss my daughter but I don't even know who she is......she never contacted me, her sister or her father at Christmas.....and her 19th birthday is this month........ :(

U KNOW YOUR SON ISN'T TOO OLD FOR A WHIPPING. Y DOES HE DO THESE THINGS ANYWAY? WHAT REASON DOES HE HAVE? FIRST HE NEEDS THE LORD IN HIS LIFE. IS HIS FATHER IN HIS LIFE? HE'S PROBABLY LOOKING 4 ATTENTION. TAKE HIM TO THE POLICE STATION AND EXPLAIN TO AN OFFICER, THE THINGS THAT HE IS DOING. MAYBE, THEY CAN TALK TO HIM AND LET HIM SEE THE CONSEQUENCES THAT FOLLOWS, WHEN LYING AND DOING BAD THINGS. GET HIM A MENTOR!

Honestly I have the same issue you do with my 9yr old, on top of many other things. We have done counseling and it has yet to work. I know most parents don't like to send their kids away, I get that, I'm in between a rock and a hard place because I believe there are places where they can go to better themselves. We have discussed residential living which is a school they live at. I don't know if that is an option, maybe military schools? A lot of these places have good programs going on. I wish I would have that benefit but I'm just the step-mom. Also if it's a good counselor they will see right through everything. If you're honest about what kind of parent you are and the everyday struggles their not going to see through his bogus line of BS. I think you're on the right path, and there are a lot of resources that counselors can give you. Even if it's not sending them away most towns or city's have alternative schools in which they have people who are trained to deal with these situations. It's totally up to you, but ask your counselor lots of questions. And it may take a few times to get the right one.

We adopted our two children 13 years ago from a Russian orphanage. They were older - 5-1/2 and 4 yrs. 8 mos. - and no one told us what we were getting into. When they began lying, stealing, and exhibiting manipulative behavior, etc., far beyond what is normal, childish, naughty behavior, we had no idea what to do. Normal parenting systems of rewards and consequences just did not work. We also consulted the school social worker, counselors, and even spent thousands of dollars taking them to a psychologist for a year and a half, with no visible improvement. It wasn't until my daughter was 16, her behavior became totally out of control, and we took her to a therapist for evaluation that we found out that both children suffered from Reactive Attachment Disorder. It was almost as if it was too late, though, and while we have had ups and downs (more downs than ups), the future doesn't look too bright for either of them to become responsible, successful, productive adults. There are times when we just look forward to them being gone, out on their own, if that's even possible at this point. We have one in therapy, but four visits haven't improved things a lot so far, and we're trying to get the other one into therapy, but she's 18, and we can't force her to do it. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. I wish I could be more upbeat for you, and offer some constructive suggestions, but we're at our wit's end with our two.

Must be teens in general, i have similar problems with my 14yr. son. lies about anything and everything. Just working through it the best i can. I'll tell you what i feel is interesting reading about some of these replies is that some of fathers are the same way, including my son's father who is a liar and a thief even though andrew has only seen him twice in 14 years. Good Luck to everyone!!

Dawn,I am sorry to hear that you are having such trouble with your son, but it seems these behaviors are epidemic in proportion for most parents of teens theses days. My granddaughter started that at age 11 and she is now 16, almost 17, her parent stated that every word out of her mouth was a lie. What to do? Research is a good start. Most kids lie because they are afraid of not fitting into some social group or have already been rejected and are acting out. As you know, kids hurt their parents first because they know they can always come home to you, you are the "unconditional love" aspect of their hormonal miserable life, you will not reject them. That being said, you may wish to actually go to a psychiatrist that works with teens and parents and be proactive. Let your son know that you will be right there with him so that he can survive these difficult times. Behavior is tricky because we are not with them 24/7, 8 hours a day they are faced with other peoples drama and personal problems, it's like Iraq at school. Be forgiving, be honest and be consistent. You son is looking for stability in a world that does not provide that, so you have to.My best to you, I know you can do this, we did and things are 100% better.I'll be thinking of you and if you need to chat, you can reach me here.Les

Melanie, it wasn't putting her in a horrible situation that brought her around, it was the communication between the two of you. If only u could have had the heart to heart before sending to a drug dealer. Communication is the key. Constant nagging, screaming and stuff is the wrong thing to do with a teen. Understand, the divorce bothers her, seeing her Dad for what he was was probably a good thing, but you could have just told her, what if she had gotten addicted to drugs while with him? Kids don't choose Divorce, it happens to them. Your partner may be good to her but does he connect with her? She has to feel like a very important part of the family. Anphetamines are very addictive, it would have scared the crap out of me to put one of my kids in that situation, I don't know how you dealt with the stress of her being gone. Put her first when she gets back, do things with just you and her. She'll never forget it.

Thanks Melanie for posting your heart. It gives us hope. Mine's only 14 and not quite so bad. But with a paternal father that is a habitual lier, a thief, and totally non-responsible person, it is a thought that has gone through my mind that maybe we should send her to her dad for a while. But like you, are afraid of his lifestyle and what the effect may be. There is hope for us if we have to go that route. Thanks again.

First I must say "DO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY" it is neither personal or a reflection of your parenting !!!!My 16 year old was the most honest of children until she hit 15 & then became this obnoxious lieing manipulator which worked on me as she had always out of all my children been so truthful & hurt like hell 2 have 2 admit she was the liar she appeared 2 be. She was also putting her lies on 2 everyone else even myself & my parnter & her siblings.When the school & the police started appearing in the picture I had no choice but 2 accept she had turned into this horrible person & also not project the feeling's i was having about it all onto her. I found it really hard not 2 yell & scream at her because lieing is the one thing i will not tolerate from anyone it is my pet hate & she knew that so that made it even harder but i had 2 remember that she is a teenager & it is a hard & sometimes horrible time !!!!!!I had 2 let her go with her lie's & learn from the outcomes 4 herself & as her parent & the older person aswell read between them figure out what was real & what was a lie, once i had done that i would be able 2 prepare myself 4 the outcome of her lies what ever they were for or 2 cover up ! This made it alot easier 2 cope with 4 myself. I understand when u say no punishment works nothing works, i 2 went through this with her i grounded her she would just get up & walk out & after a few months of that she then would leave not coming back 4 days which then caused another stress 4 me ! It became all 2 much the lieing the lack of respect 4 the punishment i would give 4 her behaviour it was becoming like a nightmare the one's you hear about with teenagers, I also took her 2 couselling but that only works if they are honest so no that did not work completely. I was luckier than I thought I had 1 more option that I never thought i would ever take & that was send her 2 live with her father ! Now her father has had nothing 2 do with her since 2 yrs of age 4 very good reason, hence why i say the option i never thought i would take but it all became 2 much i was due 4 a baby she was affecting the other children in the house like i said NIGHTMARE stuff. So i without her realizing it i made it happen she thought until recsently it was her choice 2 go but it was not ! When she got 2 her Dad's she was all excited as he had spoken with her on the phone (Oh I will give him credit 4 one thing he helped getting her 2 think it was her choice) he had told her well we will do this & we will do that & told her basically a hole heap of lie's, she believed every word he said as did I ( i really thought he had changed & this was going 2 be great 4 her). After a week nothing & every excuse he had or lie if u will worked on her but slowly after the weeks drifted by she starting realizing she was being lied 2 (she couldn't leave either it is a smalltown in the middle of Victoria Australia no trains,buses no way out except in car) She didn't ring me 4 a while as deep in her heart she new i had made this happen & she must have in some ways felt rejected but after 5 weeks she rang & wanted 2 come visit i said no but her dad insisted on her coming, so she came & visited a very different child & spoke 2 me about her dads lie's & wanted 2 know why he lied, thats when i slowly & carefully placed her in a position of asking herself why did she lie & she thought about it everytime we talked & I placed the questions about his behaviour back on2 her she would think you could see her ticking over about it ! She now after 5 months has had enough of being lied 2 & has found her dad lives a complete lie of a lifestyle he is an anfitomine drug dealer which is why i never wanted her there at all but in saying that has taught & made my daughter see lieing is serious & it hurts when people do it 2 u. I can't imagine the hurt it caused her when she walked out & found her dad sitting in a table of drugs doing what ever it is they do 2 prepare the cabbage 4 sale, i do remember the tears in the phone call that night when she rang & her hurt in her voice but will never really know the depth of her hurt from that lie from him about his life & who he really is, I on the other hand do know the hurt it caused her made her see the whole liar thing 4 what it was & she wrote me a letter expressing this & her apoligies 4 doing it 2 all of us at home, i did make her stay there unitl she finished the school year out & as much as i hated her being in that house with what i can only imagine goes on I really wanted the message 2 sink in !!! She is booked 2 fly home next friday the 15th & has been ringing me everyday & discussing with me everything, her eyes are open in a whole new way, it seems the teenager I thought i had lost is my friend now & she understands not only why I hate liar's but why I do not tolerate certian people's lifestyles & most importantly she respect's my opinion on thing 's alot more now & has really understood why i don't like certain people or things ! In telling you all this I must say I only hope there is a situation you can place your child in were he/she will learn lieing hurts because I think with some teenagers until they feel the emotion themselfs & the betrayal of a lie they think us parents are just idiots carrying on about crap (as my daughter explained 2 me that was what she thought).It's a cruel 2 be kind situation but if u can have some control as i did on the were & the how & u did have a close realationship with the child 2 start with then there is hope, but it is a habit that does need braking or it can become a lifestyle were lieing is just apart of daily life 4 whatever reason or sometimes without reason just because it's a habit !!! I wish you all the luck & I hope sharing my experience so far with my teeager helps in someway ! :)

I have many agreements with Kathi and Shiela, also. Not knowing exactly how he's raised (I would assume with love and discipline), we can only attempt to give advice.

When kids reach their teen years, they are trying to become a person independent from their parents. In my experience, what we teach at home does not always correspond with what they learn from friends and teachers. They are reaching out to the world and learning that there are many different beliefs. They start to question whether what YOU told them is the truth and not lies.

With mine, who has had her moments with the lying and manipulations and I'm sure will have many more since she's only 14, we stay constant in our expectations, discipline, and with our love. No matter what she's done, we let her know that we still love her, that her actions will not only affect her, but everyone she knows, and she is the only one that can change that. We will respond accordingly to how she acts and treats us, so it's up to her how she wants us to treat her.

I try to foresee what she's learning in school and counteract it with something like "I know this is what they're telling you at school, and this is what I believe about it, and from what you have learned throughout your life what does your mind say to you about this subject?" Try to use logic, teaching them to use the logic you've taught them, and to think about situations with many possible endings. He's NOT going to listen to you. You have to make it seem like it's coming from HIM.

And whatever you do, it's HIS behavior and you don't have to let it upset you (and yes I know it does), but he has to see that your life will go on and you're not going to let his behavior affect your happiness.

I was once told, "the best way to get back at your enemies is to lavish them with love". And many of us feels that our teens our trying to be our enemies. So lavish him with love! (not stuff...love)

Teenager lie, they are the best at it. Couseling probably isn't the best thing right now, he's waiting on you, he may not realize it, but he is. Spend as much time with him as you can. Gotta stop the screaming and nagging, his ears just close up. Talk to him in a calm loving way. Tell him you don't like what he is doing but will love him no matter what. Take him to dinner and the movies, help him with his homework, get involved in something he likes to do. Tell him all the wonderful things in life you want for him and let him know that you will help him achieve whatever dreams he has for himself. He has to learn trust and learn how to respect it. Tell him you want to trust him and allow for opportunities to do so. Praise him when he does the right things. Don't put his friends down, try to get to know them. I keep my sons friends close. They hang out at our house more than anywhere. He really doesn't want to hurt you, he just doesn't think you understand him or really hear him. He thinks his friends really listen and care more than you. Got to keep him as close to you as possible without smothering him. They don't like to feel guilty, and when you are dishing out lots of love, understanding, trust and care, he'll start to feel guilty and stop some of the bad things he does or says. Your time,love and understanding is the most precious thing to him. I promise. Last but not least, pray. Hang in there, don't throw up your hands. He is worth the work.

Sheila,

AMEN!!! I couldn't have said it better. When I started having issues with my then 15 yr old son, I knew that in order for him to be the person that I wanted him to be...kind, compassionate, trustworthy, I had to change the way I dealt with things. Mutual respect has to go on!!!! They are no longer little children and don't want to be treated like one.

I have an 18 year old, moved out as soon as she turned 18, hasnt been going to school, has sold everything she owns, lives with some nasty people, has turned her back on her family. She is a senior and is throwing her life away. I have cried, begged, pleaded everything with her. she swears she is not on drugs but her father and I believe different. I dont know what to do anymore. she quit her job, blew up her car and has nothing anymore. Says she just doenst want to live with us anymore. How can someone who has a nice home, good parents, love and family throw it all away so easily?

I have to agree with Kathi and Shiela, my daughter too is a liar, but I knew that she needed something more. her father is a controlling verbal abuser that thinks everyone to think the way that he does. I did put my daughter in counseling and supported her in every minute of it. She does not lie to me, we are in fact very close now and as a teenager, she knows that she can come to me with any problem and I will help her logically talk it out for her to understand the decisions she needs to make. She has realized that her father is the way that he is and she has her own way of thinking and working things out. She is in her freshman year of high school now and I could not be more proud of her, Be pateince, and talk. The one thing that seem to help Ellen was that I told her stories of when I was and teenager and how they made me feel. that put us on a new level of relationship, because at some point I felt the same way she did.

It sounds like he's screaming for attention...but why? Does he believe he gets better when he lies - or do things get worse? Let him see the situation he causes - not only to himself but to others including you as well. Keep your words simple and to the point while remaining calm. Give him consequences for the lies and praise him when he doesn't. If you want to get your son back through all the lies - find him by pulling him out piece by piece. He completely has the upper hand right now and will continue down this path until his life is destroyed. Don't give in to any of his demands -- tough love and stick to it. Does he have anything to take away as leverage. Again, praise him if anything is positive. If you scream, nag, etc. he'll see it as no other choice but to continue on this horrible path. You need to find trust back in him and believe in him again - so he can believe in himself again!!!

I have an almost 13 year old who has felt the need to lie for a couple of years now. Talk about frustrating! I too tried everything in the book. I eventually realized that my son doesnt "really" think he's lieing! We spent A LOT of time talking to eachother. Eventually when I asked him WHY he feels the need to lie, he let the cat out of the bag. On more than one occassion he has expressed HIS truth. Truth as we all know is perception. I have found that if I listen to HIS perception first and then manipulate HIS world a little to make him realize that maybe what he is thinking (which is his truth) is not that correct and stear him toward OUR perception of truth that 9 times out of 10 it has been successful. Of course this method does not work for a compulsive liar. But I do believe the key is to find out WHY the child feels the need to lie. I am by far not done with him and I know that I have just begun to scratch the surface of adolescence....but so far so good. Good luck to all. Your information is VERY helpful. Thank you!

I was just invited by a friend to join Circle of Moms and this was the very first place I came. I have a 16 year old daughter who is causing our family so much anguish with her lies & behavior. Just seeing that so many others are going through similar issues makes me feel a little better.

michelle,Rachel,Karen, thank you all so much for responding ....Rachel, my sons father was the same way a manipulator liar and a thief he has about a third of those horrible traits..amazing only becauss he was never in the picture...actually my son lived with him for one yr from the age of 5-6...do u think that maybe then he has picked up nasty habits ? Karen, i tried talking to him but everytime we talk i get a "i know" i know" .....i just dont trust him....honestly the way he is going he will end up in fed prison like his father!!!!

teenagers are hard at that age some go through worse things then others. my husband actualy kick my daughter out one night and she phoned me and i had to talk to both of them. i thought i was loosing her. maybe try role reversal where you play him and he plays you to show him how he acts and talks. try recording him and play it back for him. a lot of times it can be the influince of friends that they hang around with. when my daughter who is now 19 got in trouble from the croud she hung around with when she got to highschool things changed and so did her friends. she even got to stealing twice from one of her friends. they will change in time just don't give up on him try to talk to him or have some one he feels close to( they don't always like talking to parents) talk to him and see what is realy going on.could be peer presure that causes a lot. i would try counseling it can't hurt. i wish there were easy solutions for teenagers.

I went through the whole gammet with my daughter. Now 18. Hang in there. All she did was scream every foul word. And lie like it was butter. Thanks to her violence and lies I'll never be able to work around people again. Finally I let her go, quit trying to be a good mom and save her. No advice other than do the opposite of every instinct you have as a mother to save him. Its the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Especially because shes a girl. She lived on the street downtown and liked it (for two years), then she came home just before her 18th birthday 3 weeks ago. All of a sudden she doesnt want to leave. Just hold on, it will get worse before it get better. If he's like my daughter WAS forget counseling he'll turn it around on you. Always have him listed as a runaway if leaves, so you don't get caught financially by his antics. Michelle