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I'm sorry but it is all about money. If there wasn't so much money at the top it'd be less about quick results and shortcuts and getting it done regardless of the method. Ponies that lease for several thousand for ONE SHOW and you really think money isn't at the root of this?!

findeight, but how do you articulate in a rule that a horse may be given Robaxin for sore muscles but he may not be given Robaxin to make him quieter? I think that is the problem. So many legitimate meds have a sideline effect of making a horse "easier".

I think that when a medication is being given in lieu of rest, it is no longer in the animal's best interest.

A medication like an NSAID for an arthritic horse allows him to work which in many cases is actually beneficial to his long term health, just like it's beneficial for your grandmother to go out walking. A medication like Adequan which is meant to prevent arthritic changes in the first place is beneficial.

I don't believe Robaxin for sore muscles is a beneficial use for a show horse. If the muscles are that sore, the horse needs time off. IMHO.

If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

I'm sorry but it is all about money. If there wasn't so much money at the top it'd be less about quick results and shortcuts and getting it done regardless of the method. Ponies that lease for several thousand for ONE SHOW and you really think money isn't at the root of this?!

Yes...I REALLY think that money is NOT the root of all problems. Sure there are problems ... and sometimes money has a role AND sometimes it doesn't. Does the amount of money in the sport make it difficult for those of us with less to compete at the top levels ...sure nothing new about that. But there are just as many shortcuts at the local levelsand just as many abuses ...

I'd rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is .... rich poor and in between ... than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is ... they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors

Money is the problem and solution. If the fines were proportional to the money at stake in "winning" there'd be a real disincentive. But as it stands, if cheating means a horse goes from $15,000 in value to $150,000 and the risk is a $300 fine and having somone else sign entry blanks for a while--- how is there any disincentive to play dirty. People who would cheat care about prestige and cash- so that's where the fines and public shaming have to hit them harder. Except... That might mean reduced revenue for USEF USHJA-- and therein lies a major problem.

Money is the problem and solution. If the fines were proportional to the money at stake in "winning" there'd be a real disincentive. But as it stands, if cheating means a horse goes from $15,000 in value to $150,000 and the risk is a $300 fine and having somone else sign entry blanks for a while--- how is there any disincentive to play dirty. People who would cheat care about prestige and cash- so that's where the fines and public shaming have to hit them harder. Except... That might mean reduced revenue for USEF USHJA-- and therein lies a major problem.

We agreed that the penalties need to be substantial and, I think, that need to apply to EVEYONE associated with the horse - owner/rider/trainer/coach/groom -- because that will hurt pocketbooks and business.

Where we do not agree that money - and that alone - prompts cheating. IME there are just as many people with no money looking for the quick win, prestige etc. Money does not make people like that - they just are

[/QUOTE] I'd rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is .... rich poor and in between ... than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is ... they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors[/QUOTE] by juststartingout

I don't know if Mrs. Williams would agree.....she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.

I must agree with CB regarding Legend. I have administered Legend four hours out from a competition - to older, sore footed horses - on the advice of my vet. I would not classify this practice as off label.

As an aside, "off-label" means the use of a drug for a purpose not originally tested/approved or in a manner not originally tested/approved by the drug company. Many vets (and human doctors) routinely use particular drugs off-label. It is not necessarily bad or good per se. In some cases it is done because of rigorous or promising research, and in some cases it is done based on someone's hunch.

If you read the package insert, 4 hours before a competition is decidedly off-label.

If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

I'd rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is .... rich poor and in between ... than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is ... they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors[/QUOTE] by juststartingout

I don't know if Mrs. Williams would agree.....she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.[/QUOTE]

ANd -- she did the right thing and that has a satisfaction all of its own. The suit against her - if it is even filed - is frivolous and everyone knows that... my guess - she would agree and she would probably do it all over again

Yes...I REALLY think that money is NOT the root of all problems. Sure there are problems ... and sometimes money has a role AND sometimes it doesn't. Does the amount of money in the sport make it difficult for those of us with less to compete at the top levels ...sure nothing new about that. But there are just as many shortcuts at the local levelsand just as many abuses ...

I don't know where you are but in my area there are not nearly as many shortcuts and abuses at the local level, unless you count as abuse the ancient school ponies who SHOULD be allowed to show on some bute but who aren't given anything to make them more comfortable. Local show people around here don't have a clue about giving dex or IV magnesium to calm a horse. At the most you might see someone give their young horse a little ace. You might see a few people lunge before they get on but nothing like the LTD by grooms that you would see at a rated show.

Most of the abuse we see at our local shows involves poorly conditioned or marginally sound horses who shouldn't be allowed off the farm and bad or scary riding. It could still be considered abuse but it is often a result of ignorance not willful disregard of both the rules and the animal's welfare.

And yes money is a major factor that cannot be denied. If drugging a horse produces results in the ring that increases that horses value and if sales and commissions are big sources of income for trainers, then there's a huge incentive to do what it takes if everyone else is doing the same.

And a frivilous suit can and will cost her thousands of dollars - not much satisfaction in that. I agree with you about everyone upset with this trying to make a change, but HOW? Filing protests aren't going to do it. How do you get USEF to make penalties harsh enough - it's only recently that they have even acknowledged the Carolina Gold and Magnesium injections when this has been common knowledge for years.

So -- there are all kinds of local circuits -- many many horses at schooling showing on Ace because its safer -- not sure who its safer for or how. The local rated shows where horses are drugged so that the overworked eq horses can function enough to get the juniors the points they need to qualify on courses that are lower than the required height and where some trainers negotiate who should win. The regional but not big time where all the same things take place.

I am not saying that money has no role -- I am NOT naive...

I AM saying let's stop dividing ourselves -- let's build a big tent and welcome everyone who is like minded -- isn't about time to stop dividing and work toward a common goal?

Well here would be my plan of attack.
No drugs (any at all) to be injected 12-24 hours before a show. If you horse needs anything between that time and competing then why the eff are you competing it.The answer is zero tollerance during that period. ZERO.
Now of course this isn't the easiest to enforce but this is we're YOU come in. You all have mobile phones attached to you, take a photo or video if you see something dodgy
Harsher penelties for those who break the rules, for everyone, owner, rider and trainer. Starting at $2000 then I would double it for each time caught so 4000, 8000, 16000. If one of those claims ignorance, well that's your own fault. You should know what is happening with your horse. I don't care if you trainer told you it was fine, educate yourself!!! I can't go Kill someone and claim its ok because I was ignorant of the law. It's your own responsibility.
Any positive tests, horse, rider and trainer unable to compete for 3 months, then 6, 9, 12, your out for good.

Oh and I just have to add, that bute and Advil analogy. Not the same, you choose to compete through the pain or take pain relief. The horse gets no choice in this. Your standing at the top of a very slippery slope.

Oh and I just have to add, that bute and Advil analogy. Not the same, you choose to compete through the pain or take pain relief. The horse gets no choice in this. Your standing at the top of a very slippery slope.

Some of us work at horse shows. It's our job, just as most horses have a "job," unless they are retired in a big field with Black Beauty, as another poster put it.

I am as anti-doping as anyone. But there's a problem. I was at a show last summer, I saw a syringe sitting on a hay bale outside a stall. Not my horse's stall. Not with our barn. What should I have done? I had NO idea what was in the syringe or if it was being administered to a horse that was about to show or one that had finished showing for the week.

We can't just start taking pictures of everything we thing might be off side. And do what with them, anyway?