NostroZ:Generation_D: Alphakronik: Wake me when we stop giving Isreal $40,000,000,000 a year in aid.

They don't need it.

Biggest welfare state in America.

It's pretty obvious that the two of you are lost in WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

For those who prefer to get their opinions from facts, instead of feeling the need to repeat an idiotic remark any time Israel is mentioned; please note the following:

1) Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Egypt all receive either more or close to what Israel gets in US aid.2) Unlike Pakistan that was hiding OSB, Israel provides positive intelligence information to the US, in addition to an exchange of military technology, some of which is:

ADM-141 TALD (Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy)- device used to protect U.S. warplanes from enemy fire. AGM-142 Have Nap "The Popeye" - a precise bomb which hits specific coordinates Python missile - A major air to air missile. M120 mortar - A 120 mm Mortar developed by Soltam Systems. SMAW - An Anti-tank guided missile developed by Israel Military Industries, based on the Israeli B-300. Cardom - A 120mm Recoil mortar system using modern electronic navigation, self-positioning, and target acquisition. Gabriel missile - A sea skimming Anti-ship missile. SIMON breach grenade - A rifle grenade designed to breach through doors. A variant is currently in service with the United States army. LITENING targeting pod - A precision targeting pod designed to increase combat effectiveness of aircraft. International MaxxPro - An MRAP armored fighting vehicle. Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station - A Remote weapon system.

3) Finally, the money that is sent in 'aid' to Israel is used to purchase US weapons, exclusively. Therefore, the US 'aid' to Israel amounts to a US military jobs program, since the money is used to purchase US made goods.

_____

I know it's fun to hate Jews and keep screaming "why do we help them!", but don't pretend this is done on a moralistic high-g ...

White House announces that it is lowering expectations for Barack Obama's Israel trip, presumably from "establishing the groundwork for a lasting Middle East peace" to "not handing over Israel to the Friends of Hamas"because what the fark is there to do with two countries who can't be arsed to try anymore?

The Palestinian government trades on "Israeli oppression", taking away that rhetorical bullet collapses their economy - those members of Palestinian parliament that reject unification/peace* would reject it HARD.The Israeli government is far too paranoid to let any big-deal resolution happen - those members of Knesset that would reject it would reject it HARD.

When it's piecemeal or nothing, and neither side is even trying, I say let 'em crash.

// why is Obama even going now? He got an invite to my cousin's seder?*I really mean that either/or. There can be a single Israel with two souls, or two states, and neither resolution is palatable to a government that wants a single Palestinian state (or failing that, zero Israels).

vernonFL:InstaZen25: Except Arabs are citizens there and they have Arab members of their Knesset. Also, Arabs are not the majority there. So many things wrong here

Arabs living in the West Bank are not citizens of any country.

Why aren't they citizens of Jordan!?

Look at the map!Why is it ISRAEL that needs to fix the problems of the population to the south (Gaza) population to the east (west bank) and population to the north (Hezbollah)???

There is Egypt for Gaza, who have refused to allow Palestinians to cross their border to get supplies (killing them on sight).There is Jordan that has refused to take ANY Palestinian in as citizen... Jordan took a large chunk of the land given in the original Balfour declaration (twice the size of Israel), and pushed all the 'non citizen Arabs you described' as close to Israel as they can and then got the UN to get a PERMANENT and SPECIAL status to be placed on those 'refugees'.Finally, there is Lebanon, where there is plenty of Palestinians who are not considered citizens... and will not be admitted to the government.

_____

Please join in threads about Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon's humanitarian treatment of the Palestinians. How they are kept in refugee camps and are not citizens for generations, at the hands of their own brethren!

Yet, I'm sure you don't care about those countries and how they treat Palestinians for some reason... Ya, Jew hating hypocrite.

Deep Contact:NostroZ: Generation_D: Alphakronik: Wake me when we stop giving Isreal $40,000,000,000 a year in aid.

They don't need it.

Biggest welfare state in America.

It's pretty obvious that the two of you are lost in WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

For those who prefer to get their opinions from facts, instead of feeling the need to repeat an idiotic remark any time Israel is mentioned; please note the following:

ADM-141 TALD (Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy)- device used to protect U.S. warplanes from enemy fire. AGM-142 Have Nap "The Popeye" - a precise bomb which hits specific coordinates Python missile - A major air to air missile. M120 mortar - A 120 mm Mortar developed by Soltam Systems. SMAW - An Anti-tank guided missile developed by Israel Military Industries, based on the Israeli B-300. Cardom - A 120mm Recoil mortar system using modern electronic navigation, self-positioning, and target acquisition. Gabriel missile - A sea skimming Anti-ship missile. SIMON breach grenade - A rifle grenade designed to breach through doors. A variant is currently in service with the United States army. LITENING targeting pod - A precision targeting pod designed to increase combat effectiveness of aircraft. International MaxxPro - An MRAP armored fighting vehicle. Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station - A Remote weapon system.

So, a lot of American jobs were outsource to Israel? I get that, but don't understand how that is a positive and not a negative when it comes to aiding Israel.

This just in, one can expand on your own damn land, unless there is an HOA.

Just because one say its their own, does not make it so. From UN to USA to rest of the world, no one recognizes those lands as Israel's and denounces settlement. Those propaganda has been tried before here.

This just in, one can expand on your own damn land, unless there is an HOA.

Just because one say its their own, does not make it so. From UN to USA to rest of the world, no one recognizes those lands as Israel's and denounces settlement. Those propaganda has been tried before here.

That's what happens when you lose a war. Don't like it? Don't fight wars, or make sure you win.

NostroZ:Generation_D: Alphakronik: Wake me when we stop giving Isreal $40,000,000,000 a year in aid.

They don't need it.

Biggest welfare state in America.

It's pretty obvious that the two of you are lost in WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

For those who prefer to get their opinions from facts, instead of feeling the need to repeat an idiotic remark any time Israel is mentioned; please note the following:

1) Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Egypt all receive either more or close to what Israel gets in US aid.2) Unlike Pakistan that was hiding OSB, Israel provides positive intelligence information to the US, in addition to an exchange of military technology, some of which is:

ADM-141 TALD (Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy)- device used to protect U.S. warplanes from enemy fire. AGM-142 Have Nap "The Popeye" - a precise bomb which hits specific coordinates Python missile - A major air to air missile. M120 mortar - A 120 mm Mortar developed by Soltam Systems. SMAW - An Anti-tank guided missile developed by Israel Military Industries, based on the Israeli B-300. Cardom - A 120mm Recoil mortar system using modern electronic navigation, self-positioning, and target acquisition. Gabriel missile - A sea skimming Anti-ship missile. SIMON breach grenade - A rifle grenade designed to breach through doors. A variant is currently in service with the United States army. LITENING targeting pod - A precision targeting pod designed to increase combat effectiveness of aircraft. International MaxxPro - An MRAP armored fighting vehicle. Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station - A Remote weapon system.

3) Finally, the money that is sent in 'aid' to Israel is used to purchase US weapons, exclusively. Therefore, the US 'aid' to Israel amounts to a US military jobs program, since the money is used to purchase US made goods.

_____

I know it's fun to hate Jews and keep screaming "why do we help them!", but don't pretend this is done on a moralistic high-g ...

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of aPalestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggleagainst the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In realitytoday there is no difference between Jordanians,Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political andtactical reasons do we speak today about the existence ofa Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demandthat we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinianpeople' to oppose Zionism."For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign statewith defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment wereclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait evena minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."(PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, in a 1977interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.)

This just in, one can expand on your own damn land, unless there is an HOA.

Just because one say its their own, does not make it so. From UN to USA to rest of the world, no one recognizes those lands as Israel's and denounces settlement. Those propaganda has been tried before here.

That's what happens when you lose a war. Don't like it? Don't fight wars, or make sure you win.

We heard that one was well before as well. Got something new? They must be slacking at the Israeli ministry of propaganda.

NostroZ:vernonFL: InstaZen25: Except Arabs are citizens there and they have Arab members of their Knesset. Also, Arabs are not the majority there. So many things wrong here

Arabs living in the West Bank are not citizens of any country.

Why aren't they citizens of Jordan!?

[data.un.org image 300x300]

Look at the map!Why is it ISRAEL that needs to fix the problems of the population to the south (Gaza) population to the east (west bank) and population to the north (Hezbollah)???

There is Egypt for Gaza, who have refused to allow Palestinians to cross their border to get supplies (killing them on sight).There is Jordan that has refused to take ANY Palestinian in as citizen... Jordan took a large chunk of the land given in the original Balfour declaration (twice the size of Israel), and pushed all the 'non citizen Arabs you described' as close to Israel as they can and then got the UN to get a PERMANENT and SPECIAL status to be placed on those 'refugees'.Finally, there is Lebanon, where there is plenty of Palestinians who are not considered citizens... and will not be admitted to the government.

_____

Please join in threads about Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon's humanitarian treatment of the Palestinians. How they are kept in refugee camps and are not citizens for generations, at the hands of their own brethren!

Yet, I'm sure you don't care about those countries and how they treat Palestinians for some reason... Ya, Jew hating hypocrite.

Because they aren't Jordanian? Because they are Palestinian?

Oh right, "there are no Palestinian, only Arabs, that way we aren't the anti-semitic ones."

Help me out here, are you repeating this old, debunked lies for the first time because you're ignorant or just bringing the circle back around because you ran out of arguments?

Dr Dreidel:White House announces that it is lowering expectations for Barack Obama's Israel trip, presumably from "establishing the groundwork for a lasting Middle East peace" to "not handing over Israel to the Friends of Hamas" because what the fark is there to do with two countries who can't be arsed to try anymore?

The Palestinian government trades on "Israeli oppression", taking away that rhetorical bullet collapses their economy - those members of Palestinian parliament that reject unification/peace* would reject it HARD.The Israeli government is far too paranoid to let any big-deal resolution happen - those members of Knesset that would reject it would reject it HARD.

When it's piecemeal or nothing, and neither side is even trying, I say let 'em crash.

// why is Obama even going now? He got an invite to my cousin's seder?*I really mean that either/or. There can be a single Israel with two souls, or two states, and neither resolution is palatable to a government that wants a single Palestinian state (or failing that, zero Israels).

Obama is going to Israel because NOW is the BEST time to do so in his second term.There is a change in power structure following the new coalition government and he is going to shake hands with the new members and perhaps get the wheels greased for something in the future.

I think it's best that expectations have been lowered... I always thought it was weird to have America come into that relationship and impose a solution... neither side wants that in the end... it's like calling in mommy/daddy when the siblings had a fight... it's better to resolve it yourself, because whatever punishment mommy/daddy imposes does not solve the underlying problem, it only heightens the issue by using the foreign authority figure for leverage.

/Truly believe the problem would get resolved if everyone would let them figure it out for themselves without a stage to play victim to in the world theater.

The jobs to Israel were NOT outsourced... in fact, in that scenario, the US had to hire MORE people due to a higher demand for military goods due to an increase in purchases from Israel of US made weapons (as a result of the 'aid' that's sent that's used exclusively to purchase US weapons).

Nutsac_Jim:mayIFark: We heard that one was well before as well. Got something new? They must be slacking at the Israeli ministry of propaganda.

"I've heard that one before" is not an effective logical argument.

So you thought your so called argument had logic? Good for you. Make sure to add the coin to your unicorn beforehand.

No, winning a war does not give anymore right to any land. Why the heck we went after Saddam after he occupied Kuwait? Or, by your logic, if Iran wins a war against Israel and grabs it, you will be fine with that? Whether they can or not is not the question, the question is will you be saying, they won the war, this land belongs to them?

NostroZ:it's like calling in mommy/daddy when the siblings had a fight... it's better to resolve it yourself, because whatever punishment mommy/daddy imposes does not solve the underlying problem, it only heightens the issue by using the foreign authority figure for leverage.

/Truly believe the problem would get resolved if everyone would let them figure it out for themselves without a stage to play victim to in the world theater.

Well, at least the problem is resolved - sure everyone (still) hates each other, but there are no bombs. You are correct that outside forces trying to solve regional conflicts often end up creating new ones (like ALL the post-WWI border-drawing that England/France did in the ME), but it's pretty clear that these two sides are either OK with the status quo or unwilling to do anything to change it.

Your slashy is a bit too pie-in-the-sky. They are governments - by definition, what they do is "in the world theater"/"on the world stage", and while both sides have a victim's mentality, both are more than willing to subject their people to sectarian violence (or the aftereffects of it) to further political goals. The problem is that no one wants to sort through the bullshiat - the lines are predrawn, and everything that happens gets filtered through that lens first.

TheBigJerk:Because they aren't Jordanian? Because they are Palestinian?

Oh right, "there are no Palestinian, only Arabs, that way we aren't the anti-semitic ones."

Help me out here, are you repeating this old, debunked lies for the first time because you're ignorant or just bringing the circle back around because you ran out of arguments?

Re-posting a quote from BravadoGT:"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of aPalestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggleagainst the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In realitytoday there is no difference between Jordanians,Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political andtactical reasons do we speak today about the existence ofa Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demandthat we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinianpeople' to oppose Zionism."For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign statewith defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment wereclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait evena minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."(PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, in a 1977interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.)

/This is a VERY real struggle for survival for a people that have been through more genocide than you can imagine... The 'Palestinian identity' did not begin UNTIL AFTER the loss of the 1967 war... it's a political strategy... one born after KILLING ALL THE JEWS did not work, multiple times!//I doubt you have the time to research or care about the countless wars that were brought upon Israel in less than 30 years following its creation... But please, stop talking about Israel as though no real people live there or as though they have not been fighting to KEEP their land since 1947.///When Mexico comes in and claims most of the South-Western USA (as is historically theirs), then we'll have a real discussion... until then, you have no horse in the race... only an excuse to voice your hate of Jews.

When I saw the news of those freakish tornadoes hitting in February that caused such havoc, the first thing that crossed my mind was, "What on earth are we doing to Israel?" God made it clear we are not going against Jerusalem, God's holy city, or tamper with His holy land. But our American leaders are, and I dread to think of the consequences as the "roadmap for peace" is negotiated. Is there anyone advising the president that giving God's land to the Muslims is a no-no? The media have successfully changed the thinking of the people into believing Israel is the villain. It's the Muslims who are screaming for blood. All Israel is trying to do is stay alive!

Watch the storms increase every time we double-cross little Israel. I believe we are just getting a taste of what is coming. What should we do as believers? "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem" (Ps. 122:6). God said, "I will bless them that bless [Israel], and curse him that curseth [Israel]" (Gen 12:3). Any nation messing with Jerusalem will pay a terrible price. (See Zech. 12:1-3.) In the not-too-distant future, Russia and the Muslim nations will move against her, and they will be destroyed. (See Ezek 38-39.) When we see these things coming upon us, the Lord tells us to "look up" (Luke 21:28) and preach the gospel (Matt. 24:14). We won't be able to pass tracts in heaven. By then it will all be over.

NostroZ:Generation_D: Alphakronik: Wake me when we stop giving Isreal $40,000,000,000 a year in aid.

They don't need it.

Biggest welfare state in America.

It's pretty obvious that the two of you are lost in WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

For those who prefer to get their opinions from facts, instead of feeling the need to repeat an idiotic remark any time Israel is mentioned; please note the following:

1) Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Egypt all receive either more or close to what Israel gets in US aid.2) Unlike Pakistan that was hiding OSB, Israel provides positive intelligence information to the US, in addition to an exchange of military technology, some of which is:

ADM-141 TALD (Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy)- device used to protect U.S. warplanes from enemy fire. AGM-142 Have Nap "The Popeye" - a precise bomb which hits specific coordinates Python missile - A major air to air missile. M120 mortar - A 120 mm Mortar developed by Soltam Systems. SMAW - An Anti-tank guided missile developed by Israel Military Industries, based on the Israeli B-300. Cardom - A 120mm Recoil mortar system using modern electronic navigation, self-positioning, and target acquisition. Gabriel missile - A sea skimming Anti-ship missile. SIMON breach grenade - A rifle grenade designed to breach through doors. A variant is currently in service with the United States army. LITENING targeting pod - A precision targeting pod designed to increase combat effectiveness of aircraft. International MaxxPro - An MRAP armored fighting vehicle. Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station - A Remote weapon system.

3) Finally, the money that is sent in 'aid' to Israel is used to purchase US weapons, exclusively. Therefore, the US 'aid' to Israel amounts to a US military jobs program, since the money is used to purchase US made goods.

_____

I know it's fun to hate Jews and keep screaming "why do we help them!", but don't pretend this is done on a moralistic high-g ...

Nice try. Read "Inside the Mossad" and see how much our "friends" the Israelis help us on Intelligence.Also, Israel has been getting this kind of money from us for iver 30 years, so yeah, NOT like Pakistan et al.

NostroZ:TheBigJerk: Because they aren't Jordanian? Because they are Palestinian?

Oh right, "there are no Palestinian, only Arabs, that way we aren't the anti-semitic ones."

Help me out here, are you repeating this old, debunked lies for the first time because you're ignorant or just bringing the circle back around because you ran out of arguments?

///When Mexico comes in and claims most of the South-Western USA (as is historically theirs), then we'll have a real discussion... until then, you have no horse in the race...only an excuse to voice your hate of Jews.

When all else fails, play the anti-Semite card!

Up until this, no one even mentioned "Jews". We were talking about Israel. Using the suffering of ancestors to gain unfair political advantage, that is just insane.

NostroZ:Generation_D: Alphakronik: Wake me when we stop giving Isreal $40,000,000,000 a year in aid.

They don't need it.

Biggest welfare state in America.

It's pretty obvious that the two of you are lost in WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

For those who prefer to get their opinions from facts, instead of feeling the need to repeat an idiotic remark any time Israel is mentioned; please note the following:

1) Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Egypt all receive either more or close to what Israel gets in US aid.2) Unlike Pakistan that was hiding OSB, Israel provides positive intelligence information to the US, in addition to an exchange of military technology, some of which is:

ADM-141 TALD (Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy)- device used to protect U.S. warplanes from enemy fire. AGM-142 Have Nap "The Popeye" - a precise bomb which hits specific coordinates Python missile - A major air to air missile. M120 mortar - A 120 mm Mortar developed by Soltam Systems. SMAW - An Anti-tank guided missile developed by Israel Military Industries, based on the Israeli B-300. Cardom - A 120mm Recoil mortar system using modern electronic navigation, self-positioning, and target acquisition. Gabriel missile - A sea skimming Anti-ship missile. SIMON breach grenade - A rifle grenade designed to breach through doors. A variant is currently in service with the United States army. LITENING targeting pod - A precision targeting pod designed to increase combat effectiveness of aircraft. International MaxxPro - An MRAP armored fighting vehicle. Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station - A Remote weapon system.

3) Finally, the money that is sent in 'aid' to Israel is used to purchase US weapons, exclusively. Therefore, the US 'aid' to Israel amounts to a US military jobs program, since the money is used to purchase US made goods.

_____

I know it's fun to hate Jews and keep screaming "why do we help them!", but don't pretend this is done on a moralistic high-ground. The US gets plenty for it's money to Israel. I'd argue we get a MUCH better return on investment than the money we spent in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan (over a trillion dollars on our two wars... keep it in perspective haters).

The money we send to Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are all the result of American support for Israel. Before the US was forced to be friendly with the Israeli state and magnified when Israel blackmailed the u.s. with the threat of worldwide nuclear war in 1973, we had virtually no enemies in the M.E.

After that we started paying everyone off to play nice with Israel. This led to things like 9/11 and iraq etc. The fact is that the toxic relationship with the U.S. has cost us several trillion dollars and tens of thousands of American lives. I don't hate Israel, I want then off our Teets.

cameroncrazy1984:NostroZ: The 'Palestinian identity' did not begin UNTIL AFTER the loss of the 1967 war..

yeah, the area that is now israel was completely empty prior to 1948. Literally nobody lived there.

To be fair, there was neither a Palestinian identity nor an Israeli identity. Just Arabs and Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine. Local Jews and European Jews got together to form the new Israel and form a new identity.

mayIFark:No, winning a war does not give anymore right to any land. Why the heck we went after Saddam after he occupied Kuwait?

And if we wanted part of Iraq, we can take it. Just because the US chose not to do so does not mean the victor gets to dictate terms. The purpose of the Iraq war was to liberate Kuwait, not expand into Iraq.

Flissss:Before the US was forced to be friendly with the Israeli state and magnified when Israel blackmailed the u.s. with the threat of worldwide nuclear war in 1973, we had virtually no enemies in the M.E.

You, uh...

You don't remember the Cold War, do you?

The reason the US allied with Israel is either because Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and others were allying with the Soviets (I believe Syria in particular ordered military hardware from the USSR) or to prevent them from becoming so allied (depending on the nation - also, many of these states had different names/borders than now). The US "forced" itself to be friends with Israel because they wanted a Cold War ally in the MidEast.

Dr Dreidel:Your slashy is a bit too pie-in-the-sky. They are governments - by definition, what they do is "in the world theater"/"on the world stage", and while both sides have a victim's mentality, both are more than willing to subject their people to sectarian violence (or the aftereffects of it) to further political goals. The problem is that no one wants to sort through the bullshiat - the lines are predrawn, and everything that happens gets filtered through that lens first.

By world-stage, I really mean the UN, I'd like it to be dissolved... the League of Nations did not work... neither does the UN... it advocates FALSE external solutions on internal problems. The UN is the world stage that countries dance in front of, with the security council sitting in the front row.

On a separate note, Dr. Dreidel: What is your opinion on Iran and them getting nukes? - I'm under the impression that they will get them no matter what... we're not going to invade so eventually they'll get THE bomb. - What are they going to do with a nuke? Not like they'll nuke Israel... there's holy cites that will be destroyed, plenty of people on 'their side' who will get killed, and the nuclear fallout would devastate the region. Why do we care so much then? Isn't this Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)?

Nutsac_Jim:mayIFark: No, winning a war does not give anymore right to any land. Why the heck we went after Saddam after he occupied Kuwait?

And if we wanted part of Iraq, we can take it. Just because the US chose not to do so does not mean the victor gets to dictate terms. The purpose of the Iraq war was to liberate Kuwait, not expand into Iraq.