Players, fans, appear shocked. Huge roar from crowd follows. Pettitte and Jeter were in the dark. Roger credits their recruiting efforts, desire to play with his “teammates,” in NY, and for a contender. Also excited to work with young Yankee pitchers. No details on contract terms.

Well… *I* am scared. I certainly hope he ends up broken down this year, but there’s absolutely no reason to think he will be.
I warned everyone not to get complacent about our lead. Now, thigns get nuts. We MUST extend it over the next month or so until Clemens is ready. We MUST.

DionysusMay 6, 2007, 3:18 pm

BTW…it’s not that I think Clemens will be bad. I don’t, although he’s not posting a 195 ERA+ again this year. I just like Boston enough this year not to come away from this terrified by the pickup.

You say that now, d11.. but Im sure you, and the rest of us, would be jcheering in victory declaring the season over had we got him. But we didn’t so no we dismiss him. The ONLY Yankee weakness was their pitching and they are certainly patchign that up now.

DionysusMay 6, 2007, 3:23 pm

d-1, i love ya buddy, and i’m mostly just goofing on you, but you and the rest of “rationalization nation” are in overdrive on making this sound like no big deal [those of you that haven’t passed out anyway]…

dcMay 6, 2007, 3:25 pm

i must say dionysus is being gracious

dcMay 6, 2007, 3:27 pm

okay- roger is offically dead to me.

RicMay 6, 2007, 3:27 pm

Clemens plans to pitch this month or the beginning of June!
Credits Jeter for recruiting phone calls at least once/week. “These guys are still a lot of my close teaammates”
Pettitte did not know until today!

YFMay 6, 2007, 3:28 pm

“but Im sure you, and the rest of us, would be jcheering in victory declaring the season over had we got him”
Well, yes. But not because Roger is 1998-vintage, but because the difference between us having him and the Yanks not having him would have put us over the edge.
I’m glad the Yanks got him. It’s not much of a rivalry if one of the teams is in the cellar.
My prediction – 9 wins, 4.00 ERA.

Tyrel SFMay 6, 2007, 3:28 pm

Congrats, YFs. You win.
But tell me, given how short his starts have been the last 2-3 years, how does this help your bullpen?
In truth, I was very ambivalent about him coming to Boston. I really only wanted it for the full-circle effect. Great history, great track record. Cannot argue with it. But the age? Doesn’t that worry you?
Not trying to poo-poo this. Just want your thoughts.

I'm Bill McNealMay 6, 2007, 3:30 pm

isn’t that the same prediction for dm?

dcMay 6, 2007, 3:31 pm

Last year – 19 starts, 113 innings. Or about 6.5 innings a start. In the NL. Central.
But certainly he’s better than anyone else they have or could have gotten, so it make them better.

Tyrel SFMay 6, 2007, 3:32 pm

Even if Roger under performs, he still just made the Yankee rotation stronger. He’s gonna get a lot more run support than he has in a while.

bloodyank78May 6, 2007, 3:33 pm

Sure, I’d be happy to have him. But I really, truly don’t care a whole lot that he’s in NY. I’m not surprised, either. We don’t play each other every day and I think Boston’s a legitimately good team capable of playing good baseball the rest of the season.
Good pickup, NY needed him. Though given his 5.96 IP/GS last season, it’ll be interesting to see what he’s capable of here.
I’m not saying anything controversial. What NY does has no effect on whether Boston can keep winning ballgames against the rest of the league, and I think they can. Does Roger Clemens help a lot? Yes. Am I happy about this? No. But I’m happy with where Boston is right now and where they look like they’re heading. It’ll be pretty fun when Clemens pitches in Fenway for the first time…

considerating the depth of the sox rotation, which even included papelbon at the time of the propaganda – i never imagined the sox pursuing clemens with any genuine interest other than to increase the yankees desperation to sign him. henry and epstein rarely posture when they -really- want someone. if clemens was coming back, it was to ny or houston – i’m sure he can account for a few extra wins, nothing to get doomed and gloomed about.

“isn’t that the same prediction for dm?”
Maybe it’s your prediction for DM. I’d say more in the ballpark of 15-plus wins.

Tyrel SFMay 6, 2007, 3:37 pm

113/19 = oh ya.
Me and my fuzzy math.

Tyrel SFMay 6, 2007, 3:39 pm

“…I’m happy with where Boston is right now and where they look like they’re heading….”
i find it hard to believe that you’d really be happier long term [this season] with hooian as your 5th starter instead of clemens…course, he might pull a hammy and the point is moot…

dcMay 6, 2007, 3:39 pm

Wang, Petite, Clemens, Mussina, Hughes
With Rasner, Karstens and Igawa as long man possibilities… that’s how it helps the bullpen.
Sox here we come.
SF really crack me up, why so bitchy and moody (oh wait you always are) suddenly today?
Cry, cry, cry. Admit it is a good pick-up.

ErickMay 6, 2007, 3:39 pm

erick, just don’t drink the w[h]ine…it’s made with sour grapes…

dcMay 6, 2007, 3:42 pm

The SF was meant for the SF Nation in general

ErickMay 6, 2007, 3:46 pm

“Wang, Petite, Clemens, Mussina, Hughes”
As they say, it looks good on paper.

Tyrel SFMay 6, 2007, 3:48 pm

Where’s Paul and SF when you need some anger?
I called it, too – check the timestamps!
At worst, Roger needs to be a LAIM (his last Yankee tenure) and he could be much better than that. I’ll take that for a number 4.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 3:48 pm

Pretty good pickup. Still not scared, though.

DevineMay 6, 2007, 3:49 pm

jim, I would think YFs would be disappointed if Roger turned out to be lame, no?

Tyrel SFMay 6, 2007, 3:55 pm

I’ll admit, heading into this weekend the thought of Clemens coming back didn’t really appeal to me. But after Friday’s nightmare and the whole Pavano-missed-his-flight thing, I’m pretty happy about this.
Should Sox fans be scared? Probably not. But it’s only going to make the Yanks rotation better.

Are you guys f*cking kidding me? I SAID IT WAS A GOOD PICKUP! So did everyone else, even if they did start trying to temper expectations.
I also said, or implied, that I would have been happier to have him in Boston instead of Julian Tavarez. No-brainer. I just don’t think this leaves Boston in a terrible position, especially with Lester on the horizon. I like my team, and I think most SF’s here right now would say the same. Another SP to a rival doesn’t change that. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Sorry we aren’t pissing ourselves and rolling around on the floor crying.

OK, Erick. Now you have a 1, 3 3s and 1 5 in your rotation.
Yes, he’s better than anyone who is expected to be available. But Clemens alone will not help your bullpen when can’t go much more than 5. That still means up to 4 IP for your already taxed bullpen. And Mussina and Pettitte aren’t much younger. Hughes? I think you might be expecting too much this year.
Here’s another thing, how does his “special” contract, presuming Cash agreed to it, affect the rest of the clubhouse? I wouldn’t think probably not much, but New York is a long way from Houston.
To be honest, if I had to make the call, I would have rolled the dice and added him to the RS. But really, he’s almost 45. Time will tell. I won’t say it’s not great thing for NYY, and it clearly makes NYY rotation stronger. It’s agreat shot in the arm right now. But enough stronger?

I'm Bill McNealMay 6, 2007, 4:03 pm

TYrel –
Depends on the YF. I’m happy if he’s a 120 ERA+ – estatic if he’s more than that.
If he’s a 100 ERA+ then he’s a fine 4.
So to me, he has to be worse than league average to be a disappointment.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 4:07 pm

Holy f*ck. Pro-rated $28MM a year. Dear God.
I would have liked adding Roger to the Boston rotation, I really would. But that’s…wow.

“…But enough stronger?…”
i guess we’ll see, but that’s what makes the game fun, right bill?…just like the wait and see on dm, lester, drew, lugo, pedroia, and so on…we both have those issues…
as for the “1, 3 3s and 1 5 in your rotation”, does it line up like this?
1…1 [wash]
2…3 [disadvantage]
3…3 [wash]
4…3 [advantage]
5…5 [wash]
looks ok to me…do any teams have legitimate 1-5’s? [except boston of course]

erick and dc desperately attempting to provoke any sort of emotion i guess. have fun with that endeavor. assuming he is worth a difference of 5 wins by himself, it doens’t solve all of the yankees troubles. i think it’s important to note that it provides a needed moral boost for the yankees at this juncture, we’ll see how they play following this announcement. 28 m? i’m guessing epstein just laughed at that.

Hey Scrotum –
Funny enough – it’s not even a one year deal. And when you break it down – they pretty much traded Clemens for Unit plus three pitchers and an A-Gon.
If only Cashmn hadn’t signed Igawa, Mghgjfh, and Cairo, I might have called him a genius.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 4:16 pm

in 28 games, your entire starting rotation has one more win than josh beckett does in 6 appearances. wakefield, beckett, schill all have sub-3 eras at the moment. try not to get too ahead of yourself comparing rotations yet dc.

AnonymousMay 6, 2007, 4:18 pm

if the $28m is legit d-1, you have to take into account that the yanks are desperate…they really didn’t have many options…pitching mostly is killing them…rushing the young guys has had some success, but 2 of the more promising ones are now injured…add to that the inconsistency of guys like igawa, and they didn’t have much of a choice…nobody’s rushing to trade starting pitching this early in the year…
no desperation here minomni sf…i got all the reaction i needed, and more importantly, expected…

dcMay 6, 2007, 4:21 pm

Olney said it a few minutes ago, dc, so it’s not official yet. But yeah, I know they were desperate, which is another reason I’m unsurprised and not particularly upset by Boston’s failure to match, monetarily or otherwise.

Wakefield, Beckett and Schilling all have sub-3 eras in the moment is a huge “regression to the mean” which means we can only catch up! ;)

LarMay 6, 2007, 4:26 pm

Funny enough – it’s not even a one year deal. And when you break it down – they pretty much traded Clemens for Unit plus three pitchers and an A-Gon.
I would guess that…no one in the Yankee organization is looking at it that way.
Even so, despite his other struggles, the Unit averaged about 6 1/3 IP per start during his time with the Yankees.
Sure, it’s likely that one of the pitchers in the return, say Vizcaino + Clemens will average that per game.
Let’s break it down like this:
Clemens is a neccessity for the Yankees that may or may not pay off.
Clemens would have been a luxury for the Red Sox. Welcome for the team/history, though the fanbase certainly would and does have mixed emotions.

Hey, could someone confirm that I’ve got this right:
It’s $28mil pro-rated over the whole season, so that means $4.67mil/month.
That means if he returns at the start of June, which looks like the case, he’ll be paid $18.67mil for 2007.
Is that correct?

Jordan MeisnerMay 6, 2007, 4:31 pm

anon, i wasn’t comparing rotations, so if it came across that way, let me clarify…i was just responding to bill who claimed that the yanks had 1 #1, 3 #3’s, and 1 #5…if that means we have 2 #3’s instead of a #2 and #4, i guess i’ll take that…and, i was actually giving the sox credit for having a legit stable rotation right now, probably the best in the majors…so, you still get the edge on pitching, but you have to admit the yanks just got a little better…you still get the edge on pitching, but you have to admit the yanks just got a little better…

were you the anon d-1?…didn’t realize that…so let me say that i get your point that he’s a good pickup for ny considering the state of their pitching, but may not be enough considering how well the sox are dominating…and, you’d probably have preferred that he stay with houston…

dcMay 6, 2007, 4:42 pm

At the very least, maybe he’ll help out Hughes and the young ‘uns. That’s a nice benefit..

LarMay 6, 2007, 4:44 pm

No, I wasn’t anon. But yeah, that’s kinda what I was trying to say. I’d have liked him on my team, but I’m not terrified without him. Would have preferred he stay in Texas instead, and NY is definitely better with him.

I think it will be so cool to see Clemens and Hughes in the same rotation. If Hughes turns out to be as good as a lot of people think he can, 2007 might be remembered as the season when The Rocket passed the torch to Phil Franchise.

Jordan MeisnerMay 6, 2007, 4:49 pm

Lar,
The help Clemens will provide for Hughes will be directly tied to his ability to pitch well and keep the Yanks from rushing Hughes back too early. I saw a lot of Hughes’s start against the Rangers, and as long as his health gets to where it needs to be…I doubt he really needs any help.

He is a good pick up for what he can do for the young pitchers and that he is mentally tough and will not break down in a game and make many mistakes.
Would I have liked him in Boston..yes.
Would I have liked him in Houston..yes.
But this is a guy who over the last few years has jerked around the fans. When he left Ny he was retiring and then appeared in Houston. Each spring fans become hostage to “What will Roger do.” Well we know now. I do not expect the sub 2 ERA in the AL with quality of hitters. I do expect him to at least be a pitcher they can hand the ball to and expect to be in the game. Good luck to him.

Well, the biggest Yankee weakness is starting to look like a strength, isn’t it?
This is what I want from this season:
Yankees clinch the division in late September, and the Sox win enough to win the wild card. The Yankees play and beat (finally) the Angels in the first round, Sox beat anyone handily in the first round. Then the Yankees and Sox have epic pitching matchups, but the Yankees sweep all four games. Then destroy Milwaukee in the WS.
Okay, I’m getting a little ahead of myself, but seriously, Clemens is most likely going to take the place of Igawa/Rasner/Karstens/whoever by the time Hughes comes back, which is looking more and more like earlier than July. Then they’d pretty much have the best rotation, overall, in the major leagues for July, August, and September, assuming they all make most of their starts. I’d say that five wins better over the rest of the season, due to this signing, is a reasonable estimate.

Then they’d pretty much have the best rotation, overall, in the major leagues for July, August, and September, assuming they all make most of their starts.
I realize you’re qualifying this with “make most of their starts” and the admission that it’s all kind of hyberbolic anyway, but wow. Just wow.
The biggest Yankee weakness, at that point, will be a bullpen that’s completely burned out by July. They’ll continue to be relatively careful with Mo, and maybe that’s all the reason why Britton is at AAA, so that Mo has some company out there that isn’t nursing a sore shoulder, torn labrum, etc. by July/August.

Andrew, I agree that five wins better is a reasonable estimate. $18.67mil for five extra wins is really not that bad of a deal. The Yankees were probably paying something like $190mil/(95expectedwins-44replacementlevelwins) = $3.73mil per win above replacement level as it is, and Rocket would represent the same $18.67mil/5expectedwins = $3.73mil per additional win above replacement level.
The 95 projected wins figure comes from The Hardball Times, and the 44 replacement level wins figure comes from StatHead.com.

Jordan MeisnerMay 6, 2007, 5:22 pm

Wow, just wow?
I’m not saying the Yankees will have 5 number one starters in their rotation, but when you have Roger Clemens as your number 4, and a guy who was on his way to no-hitting the Rangers in his second start as your number 5, I’d like to see a rotation better than that. Hint: it’s not the Sox’s, unless you’re expecting all 5 of their pitchers to compete for the Cy Young award based on little more than a month of play.
You could probably make an argument for the Angels, but that’s pretty much it. We’ll see how it goes in June, but once Hughes comes back – and it won’t take 2 months – the Yankees will have a rotation of Clemens, Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, and Hughes. Every one of those pitchers – every one – gives you a great chance to win. If you’re going to tell me that won’t compete for one of, if not the best rotation in the majors, you’re more delusional than most people.
And buddy, the bullpen hasn’t been ‘burned’ for a while now. The rotation is coming together, AT LAST, with Wang, Pettitte and Moose actually making consecutive starts and the bullpen is starting to calm down considerably. I know that you’re hoping and dreaming for the Yankees situation to look like the embarrassing situation the Sox had last year, but that just isn’t gonna happen.

AndrewMay 6, 2007, 5:27 pm

I think most long-time Sox fans didn’t want to see Clemens in either NY or Boston. Not with the Yankees since he makes them better, and not with the Sox, because we don’t want them to move any closer to the Yankees band of mercenaries style organization. Things have gone too much in that direction over the last couple years anyway. Signing Clemens will not help club chemistry, although I suppose that doesn’t matter for the Yankees.

peteMay 6, 2007, 5:31 pm

I’ve been on the record as saying that I think Hughes is going to be great, as evidenced by the fact that the most I think Clemens can do is allow him to heal on his own time rather than being rushed. It’s too early to say anything of certainty about our rotations, because both have health questions (all but Pettitte/Clemens are on/have spent recent stretches on the DL in Yankeeland, and Schill/Wake have age to consider, and who knows how serious the forearm soreness from Lester is?)
At this point, I’d take the Sox with the health questions every day and twice on Sundays. Schilling looks like he’s being careful not to overthrow, etc., and Wake has looked sharp and healthy other than his bout with the flu. Matsuzaka has been inconsistent at best, showing flashes of what we paid, but earning the money HE’S actually making ($6M this season, if memory serves). As of right now, Beckett is the only legit ace between the two teams. Wang could join him in that with another start at least near in quality to his last.
And if you’re going to say ML, then remember some of the NL teams. Smoltz/Hudson/James/Davies and whoever is making the other starts in ATL are solid to great. If the Marlins can get over the injury hurdles then I like their young rotation a lot. The Tigers should be in this conversation as well, especially when Rogers comes back (and if they have the sense to boot Maroth or Durbin for Ledezma soon, if they don’t pitch more effectively).
Even the Reds, with Harang, Arroyo, Lohse, Belisle, and even Milton (whose 4.85 is highest on the staff) should be considered AT THIS POINT, though even if one of the middle three slips a bit, Harang’s peripherals suggest that his 4.78 ERA should be coming down. All the Dodgers’ starters beyond Randy Wolf are having good seasons so far.
There’s nothing wrong with the Yankees rotation as it probably will be in mid-July. It’ll be great, but I think we’re all being thrown off by the recognizable names, because there are plenty of other staffs in the Majors who could go toe-to-toe with ’em as currently constructed.
NL to AL considerations? I’m not the one who was making the point about my rotation being (among) the best in the Majors.

Yeah, Pete, the Sox have never bought talent – not:
Manny or
Lugo or
Drew or
Matsuzaka (gulp) or
Indeed, who’s that last All-Star the Sox drafted and developed?
Not:
Varitek or
Ortiz or
Lowell or
Schilling or
Beckett or
Just Papelbon.
But, yeah, only the Yankees are a team of mercenaries.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 5:45 pm

i like how andrew makes a point not to judge the sox rotation based on one month’s performance yet goes on to fantasize about the “best starting rotation” based on 2/3rds of a game of hughs, one great game by wang, what exactly from pettite i’m not entirely sure, a mussina recovering from injury and a clemens coming back to the al. ironically finishes the rant with “i know that you’re hoping and dreaming..” yeah, okay.

“As of right now, Beckett is the only legit ace between the two teams.”
I’d point out that Schilling’s 4-1 with a 3.28 ERA and 44/11 K/BB in 53 innings, and 1.16 WHIP. He’s an ace right now, too. Heh.
I take issue with best in the ML, as well as simply disregarding the last month as entirely irrelevant. If, somehow, all five of them meet your lofty expectations, NY has the best in the AL. But…that can be said for a whole ton of teams…

And good thing Schilling’s special conditioning program will keep him strong and healthy all year.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 5:55 pm

Do you just skim until you find something you don’t like, then start yapping? RIGHT NOW. As in, AT THE MOMENT. As in, the only person on either team pitching like an ace. Read the context of the f*cking quote.
And Beckett threw 204 innings last season.

I’m glad we agree then, Quo, that the Yankees, come June or July, will have a rotation that will compete for best in the majors. I was a little overcome with excitement when I said they will have THE best, but it looks to be really, really, really strong. And it’s not like they have 5 good starters and the rest behind them is crap. We’ve just seen Rasner pitch well, and we’ll see what they have in DeSalvo tomorrow. You can count out Igawa, especially because he completely embarrassed himself in his last start against one of the weakest-hitting teams in the league, but he has considerable upside, as evidenced in his two non-crap starts, where he was dominant.
Anyway, pete, I always love it when people, especially Sox fans, say the Yankees have a ‘mercenary’ type attitude. Wang, Cano, Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Melky, Hughes…all born and bred Yankees. And hell, you could count Rasner and Bruney in there as well, because they were just scrap-heap pickups, guys who were flat-out released by their former teams. The Yankees do go out and get big free agents, but they have plenty more homegrown or rescued talent on their roster than a certain other team.

AndrewMay 6, 2007, 5:58 pm

Forgot to qualify that with 200 “league average” innings :)
And Francis must be angrier about Clemens than he’s letting on – He’s YELLING!

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 5:59 pm

And I agree with the reformed, ‘compete’ for best in the bigs. It’ll most likely just be a matter of health, for NY and Boston and all the best rotations in the majors.
Rasner pitched well…but Igawa’s definitely taught us a lesson about what one start can mean. Honestly, I think he’s got a better shot at contributing then Igawa does. As for Hughes…I bet he’s back the 3rd week of June, MAYBE the 2nd. They’re going to baby him, and Cash still says 4-6. Plus I would imagine he’d take at least one or two rehab starts, right?
And caps take less effort then HTML.

Since Clemens got a prorated 28 mil, can we assume that there will be no more hypocritical comments about Dice-K’s pay?
I knew Clemens was pretty good, but to single handedly take the Yanks from one of the worst rotations so far this year to the best is impressive. Seriously, it is certainly good for the Yankees, but to think he will put up similar stats to his last to years in Houston seems very unrealistic. I think you will be lucky if he is as effective as he was at the end of his last year with NY. The fact that a 6 inning pitcher excites YFs to this degree is interesting.

Tom sfMay 6, 2007, 6:23 pm

Whoa. Whoa.
I loved Clemens when he was pitching for the Astros, but now that he’s in NY…
Yikes.

Yeah, Tom, cause Matsuzaka has proven he’s equivalent to Clemens.
And I’m comfortable calling Wang an ace – 19 wins last year, second in the Cy voting, and a near perfect game last time out. And me, I’d rather have Wang ptiching in a big game than Beckett.
SPeaking of which, check out who sponsors his BR page:http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beckejo02.shtml
Hilarious and precient.

From Hendricks: Turns out both Boston and Houston preferred him in late June/early July. Only the Yankees said “Whenever you’re ready”.
Roger knew he’d be ready at the end of May/early June. So it was silly to wait another month.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 6:44 pm

And there was no negotiation. Hendricks made one offer last year, and listened to the other teams. He made one offer this year, and listened to the other teams.

jim - YFMay 6, 2007, 6:49 pm

He’s where he belongs.

I'm Bill McNealMay 6, 2007, 7:02 pm

Hendricks clarified: He was up in Boston while Cashman was in Texas. But he was there to listen. And in Hendricks view – He understood Boston’s position – They’re playing great and they’d rather wait. But Roger was ready to get going.

Um Pete,
After this offseason no Sox fan can claim they aren’t in the same band of mercenaries as the Yankees, you can’t complain anymore about evil empires after all the money Epstein threw around.
What you have hated, is what you are now.

ErickMay 6, 2007, 7:27 pm

Jim is being a little unfair – Ortiz and Varitek, at least, made their name as a Sox. But let’s not rehash old arguments that isn’t really important anyhow.
Roger doesn’t need to pull a 2.3 ERA with the Yanks though – remember that this is the best lineup in baseball! Even if he goes 3.8 ERA, he’ll gives us a chance to win on most nights, which is what we really need!
For example, we really should win games we score 11 runs! Or 8 or 9, etc.
If we can get 5-6 wins, this would be totally worth it. Especially since in AL, it seems to require 95 wins or so as a wild card. It’s rough.

LarMay 6, 2007, 7:36 pm

What I like about Clemens is his work ethic and the influence he will have on young Yankee arms.
After the press conference, according to Pete Abraham, he was in an empty stadium throwing a session.

ErickMay 6, 2007, 7:47 pm

Assuming the Yankees don’t fall too far back this month with a couple tough series coming up, lets match up the two rotations:
Wang (runner up to Cy Young)
Pettitte (workhorse, clutch in playoffs)
Moose (pinpoint command)
Clemens (7 Cy Youngs)
Hughes (2nd game, chance for no-hitter)
Schilling (overweight, over-the-hill)
Beckett (finally figuring it out)
Dice-BB
Tim “Softball” Wakefield
Julian Tavarez (enough said)
Bostons hope: to take enough of a lead this month to last them the season cause here come them Yankees!!!

Back and forth, back and forth….Nobody knows how this will play out.
BUT:
-It didn’t cost the Yankees any prospects.
-Say what you’d like about his 6 inning average and his age he’s better then any other option the Yankees had. Other then Sox fans did anyone want to see any combination of DeSalvo, Rasner and Karstens for the remainder of the season.
Should this move put fear in the hearts of Sox fans, no. Roger is not the Roger Clemens of old, but he brings a lot of intangibles and improves a staff that was flat out awful up until now.

TriskaidekaphobiaMay 6, 2007, 8:08 pm

Thanks to Russell, Jim and Erick. You have made me see the light. I am folding up shop and giving up on the Red Sox. I also will advise Mr. Henry to do the same.
By signing Clemens, NYY has intimidated the rest of the AL to just give up.
In his first start, according to these three yahoos, Roger will throw a no-hitter, wait, I mean perfect game.
In his second start Roger will throw 125 mph and make the opposing hitters piss themselves, literally, at home plate.
In his third start, Roger will lock up the Cy Young.
In his fourth start, sometime, in early July at the latest, Roger will complete a World Series sweep.
In his fifth start, he will ascend into heaven, where he will sit at the hand of God the Father, and come to judge the quick and the dead.
Amazing how excited we can get over a f*cking headline. He’s 45. He was good — not great — last year in the weak NL Central.
Can he handle the pressure of the AL East? Yes. Does he make NYY better? Yes.
Did I want him? Yes.
But he’s forty-f*cking-five. He’s a 5-6 inning pitcher. He WILL help. But will it be enough?

I'm Bill McNealMay 6, 2007, 8:13 pm

Anyone who doesn’t think this is a good move for the Yankees is smoking something.
Forget the money: it’s not ours. We’re not in what might be our last days, months, year (maybe a couple more?) as the owner of a dream sports franchise, and we’re not wealthy beyond belief with a billion-dollar+ asset. This move cost the Yankees nothing at all but some cash, and it improves them. There’s really no discussion to be had about it, as far as I am concerned. What’s to debate, exactly?

SFMay 6, 2007, 8:13 pm

F*ck. Looks like I should have sat Lincecum for his first big-league start…sh*t.

Bill, before you have a coronary, require a triplie bypass, just remember how happy the Sox fans where when they broke the curse (picture that in your head and be happy), no need to go back to that panic always bitter mentality of being the little brother that always gets beat up and start going berzerk over posts.
The Yankee rotation is certainly improved, not only with Clemens, but with Moose and Wang comming back from injuries. Hughes shows great promise for this year and more. With improved starting, the pen will not be as taxed.
The Sox rotation is great, by all counts the superior one for what we have seen this year. But it has been a month in which the Yankees have had two injured star pitchers (of course I’m not talking of Pavano here, and Karstens is no star). It has also been a month in which even with all your bitching and gloating you must agree your pitchers have been over performing. Beckett is playing great this year like, still you can expect him to post a 4.00 ERA by the end (and he will still be pretty good). Schilling is pitching with guts, but it won’t hold all year (he’ll still have a great one but he is bound to come back to McDonalds… um Earth sorry). Matsuzaka will be average this year (all those expectations never should have been for this year but I must say I am scared of what he’ll do in 08). Tavarez is Tavarez and Wakefield will have a good year (you also have to agree he’ll regress).
Clemens I think we can expect a 3.50 ERA or so even if it is durin 6 innings it’s pretty good. Wang has shown he will keep his hot streak from last year through this one. Petite will have a good year but not as good as he has been having and Moose will have his usual reliable good year and continue his slow downward trend. Hughes is going to be a pretty nice addition.
The rotations and pens are going to be neck and neck I believe. It will pretty much depend on how well the Yankees can hold the fort for now and how the Sox take advantage.
It will probably come to be a battle of lineups because the pitching is going to be very even keel. And I think the Yankees have an advantage there.
I must say had the Sox gotten Clemens, I’d be crying uncle right about now. I can’t believe Epstein actually said he would think about it in July, being told the Rocket was ready to start his regimen now.
Cash took advantage of a bad situation in the rotation and showed interest and a willingness for now, which is what Clemens wanted and what Hendricks told all 3 teams.
Oh and it takes a yahoo to know one.

ErickMay 6, 2007, 8:43 pm

As a YF, I don’t know why we have to compare everything.
I think the Yanks rotation is about the same, give or take, as the Sox, at full strength. You can discount the Yanks a bit, if you want, but I think the lineup will be enough to make up for it.
We’ll see in a month or two though, the Yanks finally start to chew up the crappy teams (15-11 game aside) so we can only hope they keep on doing so!

LarMay 6, 2007, 9:31 pm

Erick, that last post was the first one of yours to contain any reason. Thank you.
I do disagree with your assessment of the two rotations. But we could argue that all night and not convince the other.
But this one: “What I like about Clemens is his work ethic and the influence he will have on young Yankee arms”
No doubt about the work ethic. But with that “special” contract, how much influence do you really think he can have on the youngsters? The way I understand it, he won’t be there except on his day in the rotation. (I’m not suggesting it will be poisonous, mind you.)

I'm Bill McNealMay 6, 2007, 11:22 pm

that papal comment from kay? my eyes rolled themselves right out of the sockets.

I could see the rotations ending up equivalent, but the bullpens? Holy crap. I’m not saying they’re all on pace for 100 appearances, or that Steinbrenner should just be prepared with an entire checkbook made out to Dr. James Andrews. Absolutely ridiculous.
Any SFs who were proclaiming the death of Mo…be reasonable (I don’t think any here were anyway). He’s going to be there (with enough opportunities) with 40 saves and an ERA in the low 2s. But aside from one blip, Paps has been flawless, Okajima, Donnelly has been impressive, Pineiro looks a lot better, and Snyder has been good in limited work. Anything with that concerning bullpens can scream “small sample sizes” but there are plenty of samples to take from guys like Proctor/Vizcaino, etc in the Yanks’ bullpen. I like Bruney, and if Myers is used properly he’ll get most LHHs not named Papi out. There’s Britton down on the farm, but I could counter that with Bryce Cox and E-Mart down on the farm for the Sox.
Given health, the rotations match up with both being strong, if it is, in fact, Pettitte/Clemens/Wang/Mussina/Hughes most of the time. But saying the bullpens are a wash is an absolute joke.

I would counter that, Quo (why did you change your name to Scrotum?), with the fact that the Sox bullpen has rarely had to actually deal with significant workloads this season. No doubt it’s better than last season, where outside of Paps and Timlin you had the motley crew of Seanez, Tavarez, Hanson and the lesser Manny to blow leads for most of the year. This is mostly due to the big, big emergence of Hideki Okajima. But I would wait to say comparison of bullpens is ‘absolutely ridiculous’ until the Sox starters inevitably (it happens to everyone, no matter how good the rotation) put together two or more crappy starts in a short time span, and see how the bullpen deals with actual strain put upon it.
I can certainly see the Yankee situation calming down significantly as their rotation comes together and they get quality start after quality start. We’ve kind of seen that already, with Pettitte and Wang throwing a good number of innings, and Mussina and Rasner actually going 5+ in between. The bullpen, not having to actually deal with adversity, was great, and is now pretty well-prepared to deal with another rookie starter (Just don’t send Vizcaino out there in significant situations. He was only really supposed to be the innings-eater, Ron Villone type anyway. I hope he starts to not suck just enough to become that guy).
The old adage of quality starting pitching makes a great bullpen is true. We’ve still yet to see how the meat of the Boston bullpen does when several starters aren’t there to go 6+ innings.

AndrewMay 6, 2007, 11:58 pm

Andrew,
I’d call him a fellow YF of yours, except that despite the few arguments you and I have had, you’re generally rational and present sensical arguments. But, if you remember, the other day this character named arny/amy was stirring up some crapola. I refuted his/her arguments, and in response he called me a scrotum, then scrotum quo 3000.

Sure, no significant workloads, which serves to keep the bullpen fresh. NO bullpen could handle the workload that the NYY bullpen has been handed this first month or so of the season, which I suppose speaks to the credit of your argument. And yes, some of those wrinkles could smooth over given less need.
I think it’s pretty clear, though, that the Sox have a couple horses (Okajima/Paps) with a decent supporting cast (Pineiro/Snyder/Donnelly). Are Sox starters always going to eat up innings like this? Maybe, maybe not. I think only injury would derail the way that Beckett, Wake, and Schill have been eating innings to this point. Even Matsuzaka, with his troubles, often gets to the 6th or 7th.
If he can get a bit more rest between outings, I think Proctor will join Bruney and Mo as being reliable cogs in the Yankee pen, but no one else really impresses as far as I’m concerned. Vizcaino’s early success seems to be entirely smoke and mirrors, Henn could be a decent long-man, but I’m not sure Torre knows that he should be utilized for that. Which I suppose is what should have been the crux of my argument.
Torre seems completely incapable of deploying the Yankee relievers in a way that makes sense in terms of winning ballgames and ensuring health. This could change, but Francona has been nearly flawless in his bullpen execution, even/especially in the games where it seems a blowout one way or the other. Only thing I’d like to see from him is a bit of trust in someone not named Okajima for the 7th/8th innings in critical situations.

francona’s getting way too much credit for his handling of a staff which has been argued is talent laden, performing extremely well as a unit, free of injuries, and doesn’t have too many unproven young pitchers…i don’t think there’s a big difference between the way joe has had to handle ny’s pitching issues this year and what francona had to deal with last year…i don’t remember everyone bashing tito…rather, i think he got a fairly generous pass because of the injuries, ineffectiveness, and the necessary premature callup of young pitchers, who just weren’t quite ready…joe gets the same pass this year until the guys get healthy…
wierd, full-moon type stuff:
1. quo changing his name to scrotum 3000 [i think i missed that comment from amy]…you’re funny…
2. amy
3. jim calling d-1 francis

dcMay 7, 2007, 1:15 am

dc,
What Joe is and should be getting blamed for is questionable tactics in deploying what is a questionable bullpen for the most part. Of course, that brings up several questions, namely, if Proctor pitches 100 innings, is it better for his eventual bionic arm for them to be racked up in 100 appearances or 60-70? He’s using 4-5 relievers a night. If your starters are getting shelled/ineffective, and you’re down by a few, you need to send a sacrificial lamb out to take the rest of the beating. You don’t need to send out the entire flock to take bits and pieces of it each.
And honestly, if Tito got a free pass, and Joe IS getting blamed for the pitching staff, what does that say about our respective fan bases? If there is actually nothing else for Torre to do in the situation he’s in, why is he getting grief about it while Tito got by relatively unscathed amongst the injuries/ineffectiveness of the Red Sox roster the last couple months of last season? (I guess this is your original question, but you realize that it’s the local medias and the fans who are blaming Joe)
A good bullpen can make a manager look smart, absolutely. But whether it is by skill, John Farrell, or dumb luck, he’s placed guys (for the most part) in situations where they can and have succeeded most of the time. I’m going to throw dumb luck out, and say that Farrell and/or Francona deserve some kudos for how the bullpen has worked and been worked into games thusfar. You can pick, if you want.
“not too many unproven young pitchers”? Maybe not young, but I’d call Pineiro and Okajima unproven before this season (and it’d be fair to say the jury is still out on Pineiro, though I think he’s at least near the corner he needs to turn at). Throw Snyder in (I’ll be honest and say I’m not sure how long his success will last) there too.
Was this supposed to be a comparison to the Yankee situation? The bullpen has proven commodities in Mo, Proctor, Vizcaino, Farnsworth (the last two may not be very good, but they’re veterans whom the Yankees can expect a given set of results from).

Torre was also getting hammered for taking his starters out way too early on days when the pen clearly could have used a rest, and playing matchups–lefty vs lefty with quick substitutions–when it was clearly not a good idea to do so. Matchups are fine when the pen is rested or when the series is important…but he was doing it at a time when what mattered most was using the smallest number of arms possible.
Francona, meanwhile, has let his starters keep going when some of the more trigger happy managers out there would pull them, and with a few exceptions, has come out looking smart. He’s been aided by strong starts, to be sure, but he’s also made a relatively small number of moves where you look…you hate…and you’re proven right. If that makes any sense…
“But aside from one blip, Paps has been flawless,”
I know, I’m always negative…this from Rotoworld, far better scouts then I:
“When he returned Friday, his velocity was back up to 96 mph, but his shoulder was flying open, causing most of his fastballs to tail. The whole thing suggests that he’s not quite right.”
He certainly seemed more effective today then he was on Friday. And maybe he’s fine. But I’m still a little concerned…Oh, and I’m starting not to crap myself when Pineiro comes into the game, which is nice. He looked very good against NY, TOR, and MIN in his last three appearances, and his velocity against Minny was back in 93-94 range. Not getting as many GB’s as I’d like, but there haven’t been many good swings on him lately, either.

Bill,
The deal Clemens gets doesn’t mean he gets to go home for four days. From what I understood on the press conference, the media and the fans have had it wrong all the time.
When he wasn’t on the team he was with the AAA Houston affiliate working with the young guys. I heard the press conference over on LoHud Yankees and from what I got he would spend a lot of time with Scranton and working with the kids.
He was actually pretty pissed at the general assumption that for four days he is laying around on a lazy boy. It’s toward the end of the interview.

ErickMay 7, 2007, 7:00 am

Also, I thought Clemens inspired a young Schilling – I remember reading this somewhere. So obviously it’s of _some_ help..

LarMay 7, 2007, 9:01 am

d-1 and quo…i don’t disagree with some of the joe criticism, just like i think tito deserves some credit, but we can’t overlook the fact that it’s much easier to look smart managing a team that’s healthy and performing well…for one thing if the starters don’t get hurt and aren’t giving up 10 runs before the 3rd inning [made up stat, don’t bother to research] it’s a much easier decision to leave them in longer…sox starters have overwhelming outperformed yankee starters, with or without the injuries…that has a direct effect on the condition of the bullpen…