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"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Don't intentionally drive into a crowd of baseball bat wielding protesters and kill one of them?

So, that's a good idea of what not to do, but, what would be a good idea of what to do?

What I couldn't tell was what was behind him. If he was not surrounded, then the right answer is put the car in reverse and get the hell out of there. If he was surrounded? I don't see any good options.

Well, that's what we have trials for. The prosecutors will be able to tell whether he had a peaceful option, because they'll spend the time necessary to piece together the various videos and see what really happened. If he was not being threatened at the time he accelerated into the crowd, then it seems like a capital murder case. He killed one during an attempt at mass murder.

If his lawyers can make a case that he had a reasonable fear for his life, then it might be difficult to secure a conviction on anything.

So, that's a good idea of what not to do, but, what would be a good idea of what to do?

What I couldn't tell was what was behind him. If he was not surrounded, then the right answer is put the car in reverse and get the hell out of there. If he was surrounded? I don't see any good options.

Well, that's what we have trials for. The prosecutors will be able to tell whether he had a peaceful option, because they'll spend the time necessary to piece together the various videos and see what really happened. If he was not being threatened at the time he accelerated into the crowd, then it seems like a capital murder case. He killed one during an attempt at mass murder.

If his lawyers can make a case that he had a reasonable fear for his life, then it might be difficult to secure a conviction on anything.

Do not make excuses for Nazi terrorists. He sped into a crowd with a car, killing one and injuring many. He did so intentionally. He was not running from some bad man with a bat. His car was struck after he was already speeding towards the crowd.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Because really, it was the guy with the bat who hit the car so hard that it flew into the crowd.

No, the guy with the bat was one of the ANTIFA attacking basically anything that moved. You can see from the video that the media shows over and over again that James Fields applied his brakes before hitting the crowd. A terrorist hellbent on destruction isn't going to hit the brakes just as he reaches his target.

What happened as soon as he came to a stop is the key to understanding this situation. This video shows ANTIFA/BLM members immediately descending on the car with clubs. Mr. Fields then backs up and runs over a few of the people who were trying to kill him.

It was an accident. Mr Fields feared for his life. I can't pass judgement on the people who were blocking the road in front of him. But anybody who was injured after he reversed the car deserved what they got. I hope they're permanently disabled and end up having to pay for the damage they did to the Dodge.

People are already fleeing the car before the bat swinger does anything that can be perceived as threatening. The brake lights are off throughout the clip, which means at no point did the driver react to the fact that pedestrians are blocking the street.

Not true.

Quote:

This is clear intention to murder.
The guy who swings the bat (or whatever it is) reacts to a murderous attack in progress. It's perhaps not a useful move, but probably the best he could have done at the moment.

Clear intent to escape certain death while trying to cause the least damage possible.

He's attained a high rate of speed before the baseball bat guy connects with the car.

What if he claims that he did an initial surge forward to try to convey to the crowd that he meant business and intended to get through, but then when he started getting surrounded and heard his car start getting hit, he panicked and hit the gas?

What if he claims he was unaware of the parked cars up ahead?

What if he points out that all his decisions were informed by seeing vicious, attempted murder style attacks on his group by these same protesters in the hours just prior to this, and that he saw getting stopped while surrounded by these people to be certain death for him?

What if he claims his car had already been surrounded and hit with weapons by a more sparse group of attackers up at the top of the hill? There's a photo of the back of his car before he hit anyone showing damage consistent with that.

__________________"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."- Thomas JeffersonReality is going to force you to become me.

What if he claims that he did an initial surge forward to try to convey to the crowd that he meant business and intended to get through, but then when he started getting surrounded and heard his car start getting hit, he panicked and hit the gas?...

People were already fleeing when the passer-by swung the bat.
This means the car was threatening with obvious dangerous speed.

If you wield a gun to intimidate, people react to your violence, and then you do in fact shoot someone, how is the claim that you merely intended to intimidate people a defense??

We can debate the fine details between first and second degree murder and man slaughter, or whatever legales terms Virginia and the US employ.
But this man meant to put terror in the hearts of fellow citizens - BEFORE the bat was swung - and killed someone in the process.

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to be a mob of violent people with weapons, show up to stop a lawful assembly, succeed in that by beating the rally participants horribly and then block the streets, surrounding and menacing cars which seek to pass through.

I'm not even convinced that plowing into such a mob deliberately is immoral, given those circumstances.

__________________"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."- Thomas JeffersonReality is going to force you to become me.

I second Oystein's request. The video posted in the OP, at least, does not show the brake lights on at any point.

This is not the result of someone applying their brakes: https://youtu.be/7jGgYM2_Zdk?t=6m21s. In fact, in the second clip (which is the one posted in the OP), you can actually hear the car accelerate just before the impact. The second clip also shows Mr. Fields fleeing from the incident, backing up the way he had come, which is clear of counter-protesters. The man had everywhere else to go if his intention was to avoid hurting anyone.

Nobody, and I mean nobody not intensely interested in constructing an extremely dangerous delusion, can watch these clips and rationalize what they see as "self defense". All of you who are attempting a benefit of the doubt should be utterly ashamed of yourselves. You disgrace and pervert the very notion of rationality.

This was, without the glimmer of a doubt in any reasonable person's mind, a deliberate attempt to injure and/or kill people. There is no reasonable doubt here.

Rewatching the second clip in the video I posted and comparing it to the photo AJM8125 posted, it's seems as though the brake may have been applied in the fraction of a second when the camera was pointed at the ground. That hardly seems a serious attempt to slow down. An example of how a single, accurate image can be used deliberately to deceive.

ETA: Actually, at the very beginning of the second clip, as Mr. Fields' car passes the person filming, you can see his brake lights are indeed on. After that, however, there is no apparent attempt by Mr. Fields to slow down. And, as I said before, you can hear what sounds to be his vehicle accelerating as he approached the crowd.

Quote:

ETA: It doesn't look like a baseball bat. A homemade flag pole?

It's almost certainly a flag. Seems a bit too thin to be a baseball bat.

All the same events of that day happened, including this car incident, but the rally was a pro-equality, pro-diversity rally with a permit and it got stormed by these white nationalists / Nazis / etc.

There was combat in the streets but in this version, things are reversed so it is the white nationalists who do the bulk of the initiating violence and the bulk of the most vicious wounding on the pro-equality rally goers.

The pro-equality rally goers are run out of town and in the hours which follow, the Nazis are controlling the streets. Surrounding cars and checking to see if the occupants are anti-white, as they put it. If they find such occupants they threaten and surround them, beating their cars with weapons.

During this, a reporter mentions hearing reports of a straggler diversity supporter hiding out in a parking garage and goes to interview her.

This is the climate in which a 20 year old young Jewish woman in a tie-dye shirt (a signature item many rally goers had been wearing) finds herself surrounded and her path locked in her Prius on a side street near the park where they'd been protesting the removal of a MLK statue. Her Prius is facing a hundred or so white nationalist Nazi KKK types, about 20% of whom have bats, pipes and other weapons.

They seem to recognize her as an opponent and begin attacking the car. She panics and in the end, a 32 year old white man is dead. He wasn't one of the hard core Nazi types... just a Milo fan, but he was right there next to the ones with weapons and his position in between the two cars in front of her indicates he was harassing and blocking those cars.

You're on the jury. How do you vote on murder 2?

__________________"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."- Thomas JeffersonReality is going to force you to become me.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

You'd be incorrect. Check out the link Elagabalus posted (here). It contains this image, which clearly shows the mark you identy as 1) already there, and 2) not even close to where the kid hit the vehicle with a flag pole.

You'd be incorrect. Check out the link Elagabalus posted (here). It contains this image, which clearly shows the mark you identy as 1) already there, and 2) not even close to where the kid hit the vehicle with a flag pole.

Yes, they are. I was refuting AJM8125's chronology by pointing out that the mark he identified as damage resulting from the counter-protester hitting Mr. Fields' vehicle actually exists at the very moment the vehicle is being hit, and is in a very different spot. Therefore, that mark is unlikely to be the result of the hit and unlikely that the photo was taken after the hit.

Also, by pointing him to the link you provided, he should see the first photo he posted (here, with the brake lights on) in which the "flag man" is identified. This picture would seem to have been taken before the "flag man" striking Mr. Fields' vehicle and it, too, shows the mark he identified as existing prior to the "flag man" striking the vehicle.

So, Mr. Fields applies the brake for an unknown length of time prior to being struck by the "flag man", but does not seem to apply it at any time afterwards, including immediately prior to the impact (judging by the speed apparent in the first clip in the video I linked to). Quite the opposite, in fact, as you can hear what sounds like his vehicle accelerating prior to impact.

Yes, they are. I was refuting AJM8125's chronology by pointing out that the mark he identified as damage resulting from the counter-protester hitting Mr. Fields' vehicle actually exists at the very moment the vehicle is being hit, and is in a very different spot. Therefore, it is unlikely to be the result of the hit and unlikely the photo was taken after the hit.

Also, by pointing him to the link you provided, he should see the photo he pasted (with the brake lights on) in which the "flag man" is identified. This picture would seem to have been taken before the "flag man" striking Mr. Fields' vehicle and it, too, shows the mark he identified as existing prior to the "flag man" striking the vehicle.

No argument here. I was just pointing out, whatever the driver is doing, he is no longer applying the brakes by the time the second shot w/Flagman is taken.

All the same events of that day happened, including this car incident, but the rally was a pro-equality, pro-diversity rally with a permit and it got stormed by these white nationalists / Nazis / etc.

There was combat in the streets but in this version, things are reversed so it is the white nationalists who do the bulk of the initiating violence and the bulk of the most vicious wounding on the pro-equality rally goers.

The pro-equality rally goers are run out of town and in the hours which follow, the Nazis are controlling the streets. Surrounding cars and checking to see if the occupants are anti-white, as they put it. If they find such occupants they threaten and surround them, beating their cars with weapons.

During this, a reporter mentions hearing reports of a straggler diversity supporter hiding out in a parking garage and goes to interview her.

This is the climate in which a 20 year old young Jewish woman in a tie-dye shirt (a signature item many rally goers had been wearing) finds herself surrounded and her path locked in her Prius on a side street near the park where they'd been protesting the removal of a MLK statue. Her Prius is facing a hundred or so white nationalist Nazi KKK types, about 20% of whom have bats, pipes and other weapons.

They seem to recognize her as an opponent and begin attacking the car. She panics and in the end, a 32 year old white man is dead. He wasn't one of the hard core Nazi types... just a Milo fan, but he was right there next to the ones with weapons and his position in between the two cars in front of her indicates he was harassing and blocking those cars.

You're on the jury. How do you vote on murder 2?

To be honest, I would withhold judgement as I am doing in this case. I'd have to put more time into studying the details to make a confident decision. For example, I haven't looked at a bunch of pictures and proposed timelines of the event.

Additionally, I am not convinced that the scenario you described above is an accurate depiction of (the opposite of) what happened. Especially saying the rally with the permit "got stormed" and your characterization of who initiated most of the violence.

1.) The damage was done prior to flag man, but there's a photo showing not just that bumper mark but about 4 damage spots on the back of his car. These were likely inflicted by people with weapons in a more sparse gathering up at the top of the hill, where we don't seem to have good video or photos at all.

2.) it's been a known and common tactic to disguise weapons as flags for a while. Seriously. I was aware of this since Berkeley. They bring a pipe or fighting stick and put a flag on it so it isn't confiscated or necessarily immediately recognized as a weapon.

__________________"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."- Thomas JeffersonReality is going to force you to become me.

1.) The damage was done prior to flag man, but there's a photo showing not just that bumper mark but about 4 damage spots on the back of his car. These were likely inflicted by people with weapons in a more sparse gathering up at the top of the hill, where we don't seem to have good video or photos at all.

2.) it's been a known and common tactic to disguise weapons as flags for a while. Seriously. I was aware of this since Berkeley. They bring a pipe or fighting stick and put a flag on it so it isn't confiscated or necessarily immediately recognized as a weapon.

Ok, so far I was agnostic about this, as I hadn't looked at enough evidence to come to any conclusion. But now I did and think I can make a good case.

First of all, the place where the event happens is here on Google maps.

Second, here's a video that compiles all known videos of the event (or at least all and more than were mentioned here so far). I'll embed it with NSFW tag for convenience and to circumvent the youtube age restriction.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

(8) The demonstration ist moving up the street, the red and white car are not standing but slowly moving in the opposite direction.

(12) We are at the relative top of the demonstration, not many people are higher up than the cars (this is corroborated by the following clips)

Clip 2:

(30) There's a sound when the Dodge passes, at first I thought he hit one of the pylons or someone in front of him. But actually he's jumping a bit over that step right of the camera at considerable speed (will get clearer from following evidence).

(32) I don't see any break lights, but he is also not accelerating. Not optically, and that is one LOUD car so you would hear the engine. It seems he's just rolling.

(34) The guy with the bat barely hits him. That has clearly nothing to do with the cause of the event. He just sees him coming and tries to hit.

(50) There's the step he jumped over on the way down.

(52) There are people around, but not many. Looks like usual business on a small pedestrian street in early afternoon (it happened at 1:45pm). Up the hill is almost nobody.

Clip 3 and 4 have no additional information I notice.
Clip 5:

(107) No breaking lights, except for less than a second at (110) immediately before going into rear gear. I guess that's what the car does automatically.

The guys with the clubs all come from not far behind him.

Clip 6 shows the same, just with more (most, not for the fainthearted) details and a longer end which shows good how steep the street is.
Clip 7:

(215) This is a small, "rogue" demonstration with nobody guarding it. Not only from uphill are cars standing at the crossing, but also from the other directions. It seems the demonstration is coming from the right and turning left up the street which is one way downhill. Notice the railway up in the picture.

Crash kicks red car kicked by white car kicked by Dodge into middle of the crossing.

That's it for the observations.

So, now put yourself into the skin of a 20-year-old [alt-right] hothead guy from Ohio with his muscle car who just had a ****** day and hits the road two hours after his rally was ended prematurely and unjustified (he thinks). He parked near the park and now he is two blocks away from it, namely here on Google StreetView. Notice the one way sign. If you turn right from here and drive two short blocks, you are at the park.

Now (or when you come back from the park) crank up Screwdriver on the stereo and beat it down that thing in the direction of the next motorway. What do you see? From the demonstration coming wrong way in your direction? How would you know that it is turning just around the corner two blocks down? Know of it at all? What do you do after you saw that there's something wrong with the situation in front of the railway and tunnel in the background?

I say nothing. He did nothing from when he realized something was wrong until he stood in the mess and saw the approaching people in the rear view mirror.

My money is on accident (plus action under shock on the way back up) now. Thoughts?

edit: checked further up 4th street in the wrong direction, there are some parking lots at the top. Could be that he started somewhere there on Google StreetView from where, even if he didn't ran over a stop sign, he would have already an additional block to accelerate and the motivation to get over the green lights at the crossing I showed before.

Empress could you lay out what you think happened on the street again a bit more simply? Something about your wording there was puzzling to me.

__________________"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."- Thomas JeffersonReality is going to force you to become me.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Empress could you lay out what you think happened on the street again a bit more simply? Something about your wording there was puzzling to me.

Guy was angry, came from demo, wanted home, wasn't a local, turned into that steep downhill street, accelarated it down with his too-powerful-for-boneheads car, realised somewhere half a block down that an unguided demonstration was coming wrong way up the one way street. No thoughts until BOOM.

Guy was angry, came from demo, wanted home, wasn't a local, turned into that steep downhill street, accelarated it down with his too-powerful-for-boneheads car, realised somewhere half a block down that an unguided demonstration was coming wrong way up the one way street. No thoughts until BOOM.

That's interesting. I thought that's what you were saying, but frankly I was a bit shocked at your take.

That hadn't really occurred to me.

The idea that he was just sort of oblivious.

I don't find that very likely but there could be some element of that in there, I don't know.

I personally think he did a burst forward with the car to try to show them he meant business and wanted through, and then they started increasing aggression toward him in reaction to that and then he panicked and gunned it, probably not realizing there were parked cars beyond the protesters.

Originally Posted by uke2se

Despicable Nazi terrorist apologetics in this thread.

This board is for skeptics, right? Isn't the entire idea of a board for skeptics that it should be filled with a bunch of people who have some semblance of control over their emotions and coolly dissect topics which would make most people break down in exactly the sort of "point and sputter" emotional outburst I just quoted from you? Dispassionately analytical, rather than angrily censorious?

__________________"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."- Thomas JeffersonReality is going to force you to become me.

I personally think he did a burst forward with the car to try to show them he meant business and wanted through, and then they started increasing aggression toward him in reaction to that and then he panicked and gunned it, probably not realizing there were parked cars beyond the protesters.

Take the three minutes to watch the video compilation with my observations and you won't think that anymore. He was not in contact with the demonstration before he came speeding down the hill.

Those who want to come up with a better scenario must first of all explain how he did know of the small irregular demonstration and that it would come across that corner, the wrong way up a one way street, at that time.