We are living in an exciting time where academic and societal ideas of sex, gender, and orientation are getting broken further apart and redefined leading to better chances of personal discovery and finding tools to be happy. Some people don't like exciting times of personal discovery and happiness. Those people are threadshiatters.That is my new theory about these Fark threads.

Trans folks face a fair amount of discrimination, even among the LGB community. It's not just about homophobes, but about folks who are uncomfortable with trans folks who break a lot of stereotypes, and challenge a lot of folks notions about gender.

And that is what is at the heart of it.

Gender identity is at times mutable. It challenges folks' notions about who someone is, who they can be, and it makes some folks uncomfortable. In many cases, LGB folks who are fighting for recognition, it can seem to be a distraction, and it plays into stereotypes, as well as challenges some notions that folks have been trying to mainstream for some time. It derails some feminist and gay dogma that has been around for years. Trans folks challenge expectations and notions of what gender is, and to some, they feel they muddy the waters and makes the ground to defend so wide, that it is difficult to get a single message across.

And it's not hard. Folks want their own dignity. They define themselves. Folks deserve their own dignity, to live their lives, to love who they love, and not be judged on others' expectations. Be they gay and like to dress in drag for fun. Be they lesbian and have a butch bend. Be they a man who feels trapped in his own body by a quirk of brain chemistry. Be they a woman who is the same boat. Be they a man who has been traumatized to the point of hating his own gender, and looking for a respite and an escape, a place to feel safe and who needs the time to come to grips with things. For a woman in the same boat. Gender is less about polar opposites, as opposed to a scale that rings with many notes. And accepting folks who are different, isn't that hard. Is it something that challenges you? Quite possibly. Is it going to hurt you to call someone who you knew as a man at first, and then wants to transition? Not really. If they are important to you, their relationship is important to you, then you support them. Support people. Support them, and help them, and sometimes that does mean digging a bit to get to know them better. To understand what's going on.

Had a good friend who really hated being a man. Yes, there was a lot of trauma in his background. He hated the whole mess, and for him, he wanted to be shut of the whole shebang, and live as a woman. We supported her as she wanted to be, but likewise, we wanted her to get some more than cursory counseling. She met a woman who loved her. Who accepted her. And in that relationship, our friend had the realization that while the gender didn't matter to her lover, she really wanted her to be well. To be happy. To shed a lot of weight that she'd been carrying. And that halted her from going the full transition. In the end, he accepted who he was, that the damage that he carried was his own, and that it had made him a stronger human, and it was in that cocoon of safety that he'd retreated into, for a time, that helped him see that the gender wasn't the issue at all. But the process, the steps, were important for him to come full circle.

Not everyone is that case though. Some folks have brain chemistry quirks that aren't the result of trauma or damage. Some folks are born different. And supporting folks in their journey, that's up to us. To help our brothers and sisters, or at least not actively be douchebags to them on their journey. There is a difference between helping folks figure their sh*t out, and questioning their motives, and just being an asshat.

I mean, I like men, 100%. Some people like women 100%. But that's irrelevant. Not everybody is 100% male or 100% female. Some people have different bodies, chromosomes, sex organs than what society perceives. What does it matter? If you're not attracted to somebody, then so be it. If you're attracted to someone that doesn't fit the stereotypical gender mold, then so be it. What's the big deal? How does it negatively impact your life? If it does, then how is that impact anything but self inflicted or concocted from ignorance?

Let people be who and what they are and move on with it. Stop being a bitter, hateful asshole. Transgender concerns aside, you'll be a happier, healthier person for it.

JPINFV:I'm not "proud" to be white, male, Catholic (never explored other religions), or American (never explored other countries). I'm not ashamed of those things either.

I think the point of "pride marches" and the like is more to counter the shame that society at large attempts to force on those who identify as such. That's why you don't see any "hetero pride" marches and the like, because there aren't massive chunks of society dedicated to telling you that heterosexuality is unnatural and shameful and that you feel this way because there's something wrong with you.

So I think it's less about how they feel and more about countering how society wants them to feel.

So you missed the entire part about the difference between "not proud because I didn't make a choice" and " not proud = ashamed." I'm not "proud" to be white, male, Catholic (never explored other religions), or American (never explored other countries). I'm not ashamed of those things either. I just am those things.

Are you suggesting that sexual orientation and gender identity are choices and not birth traits?

JPINFV:bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?

As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.

ciberido:itazurakko: If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that. But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain works, no matter how annoying or inconvenient you may find it, any more than we're going to "stop with" research into evolution because creationists fit it annoying and inconvenient. Scientific truth (or as close to truth as we can get) must be discovered and made generally known no matter how well or poorly it fits with any person's political agenda or sociopolitical views.

Secondly, while your heart is in the right place, you are unfortunately in your own way as much denying the reality of transsexualism as any "these transwomen are just mentally ill men who mutilate their bodies!" transphobe. Like most human beings, transsexuals (generally speaking, there may be exceptions or caveats I'm overlooking) consider themselves to be completely male or completely female, not "both" or "neither" or "none of the above." That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being "both" or "neither" or "none of the above," but trying to push that identity on transsexuals is, again, ultimately as demeaning as what the garden-variety transphobes say.

Third, why are you so arrogant as to presume that a society without any gender roles whatsoever is what all humans everywhere should strive for? Maybe we WANT gender roles, or at least some of us do. Maybe we, some of us, LIKE them. There's a major difference between saying that an individual should have the freedom to deviate from the expected gender role of the society he or she lives in (on the one hand) and there shouldn't be any roles for anyone, whether they want them or not. Frankly, your presumption is not so much liberating as insulting.

You do realize, that trans folks have been around for a while, right? In more than a few Native American cultures, as well as a few Asian societies, and they weren't just accepted, but in many cases, exalted.

The funny thing about nature is that one of the big rules seems to be variation. It's not about everyone being the same. Nature tends to throw us curves all the time. Myself, I've got a whole extra vertebrae. Weird stuff happens. All the time. Gender roles developed, and are often reinforced, but that doesn't mean that folks are looking to throw all of them away when they talk about not being hide bound to them, in all cases. Some of these roles are actually still working themselves out. Things change. Things don't always conform to expectations, and that isn't so much about "progress" as much as the general order of the Universe. Variation occurs. Variation is a fairly large rule. Deviance from expectations happen in all societies. Some of that deviation is on a positive note--like charity in the case of the US. Yes, we all say that we like to be giving, but then you look around you, and realize, that while the ideal is something to strive for, we don't all hit the mark. Likewise, we say being a backstabbing, lying weasel is a bad thing, and yet, we find ourselves sometimes doing it. Human behavior is not set into stone. It does fall into patterns, and many folks find themselves within statistical averages, but then again, folks likewise outside those patterns as well.

We have in this discussion, have folks who are adamant about what gender roles should be. The conforming to expectations is desirable. The problem is, humans don't always conform, and looking to "fix" folks who don't conform...well, that leads to some hinkey places. Like, say, "homosexual re-education" which I think that many of us might agree, leads to some bad places. There will be folks who pipe wise and say that it's fine, and Because Jeebus! and that is again, variation only confirming itself. People are often dicks, and would really like it if others could be dicks JUST like them, because when you're an outlier, it gets weird what with folks looking at you and pointing.

Variation happens. It will continue to happen, until we lock ourselves up in synthetic bodies, and only reproduce consciousness by programming algorithms, and even then, variation is still going to rear it's ugly head, because that is the only way to keep a society from becoming static.

Trans folks have served roles in many societies over the years. Some actually positive, and even revered. We are in the process of maybe learning a thing or two about not being dicks about gender issues, and looking to follow my mother's peoples' example, about the nail being hammered down--and even THEY found ways of accepting folks who had trans issues.

You don't have to like, or agree with folks' reasons for looking to transition. You don't have to seek out trans folks to be friends with. The only thing you might want to do, is maybe dial back a bit on being a dick about it. Less dickishness is all folks are looking for. Judge all you want in private, but maybe remember back in gradeschool, when you got undressed in the locker room and folks giggled at your wang or your bewbs--or lack of them--and realize that yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that you didn't like, and it's pretty much the same thing again, only writ a bit more public. All folks are asking is for you to be less of a douche.

nyrB:serial_crusher: nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice. If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean? As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not. Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing. We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody.If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less. It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.

My biggest problem is that we, as a society are expected to "play along" and if we don't, we're somehow "intolerant". If you want to pretend you're something you're not that's fine. That's totally you're business. Pretend you're a tree for all I care. But don't expect me to call you a tree.

Then how about this:

or, if that doesn't grab you, how about simply this:

You don't have to understand, you don't have to particularly even care about someone, but in the end, it's helpful to simply not be a douche. Be, kind, babies. Be kind. That's the only hard and fast rule.

I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice. If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean? As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not. Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I have this crazy idea that, for a lot of these haters, it's a matter of them not really liking or respecting women in the first place.

Therefore, a trans* woman is a woman they have absolutely no use for - they don't think they're farkable, so to them they see no place whatsoever in society for them. You know, the "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, making me a sammich!" crowd.

Utter Genius:Meanwhile, back in reality, there is zero scientific evidence that sex reassignment surgery improves anyone's life or mental well-being.

But hey, how's that 41% suicide attempt rate working out for ya, trannies?

Uh, two things. First, you're completely full of shiat. SRS is not an all or nothing thing. Many people who are transgender do NOT go through with a full plastic reshaping of their genitals for the fact that it carries huge risks, like loss of urinary or sexual function, and inability to achieve orgasm. It also results in complete sterility. Secondly, there IS evidence - which is why the psychiatric community has been pushing to reclassify Gender Identity Disorder as a birth defect, rather than a mental health problem.

The other thing is that you have no farking clue why the suicide rate for transgenders is so high if you think it's because of SRS. You're probably the same caliber of person who says gays kill themselves because they're sinful.

ciberido:Well, there are websites and books and the usual resources. You might start with "True Selves" or "Just Add Hormones." For a website, I guess I'd begin with glaad.org's transgender page.

Also keep in mind that, while firsthand information is great, no single person can speak for all transgender folk, just as no single woman can speak for all lesbians or single man can speak for all gay men.

The good resources currently to research are the psychiatric community groups, like the APA, who are currently leading the charge in treatment of TG/TS individuals. There is a huge push to identify and treat these patients as children and before puberty, as it is a lot safer and less invasive/painful and expensive to do so. Europe has been ahead of the curve for a while now.

Shedim:She's also been about my only source - it seems the only decent information about trans* people comes from trans* people themselves. Which is handy in terms of getting good quality, firsthand information, but there isn't exactly a wealth of it in mainstream media (TV, film, literature, video games etc.). If I may go a little off-topic, what do you think could be done about getting more information out there in helpful ways?

Also keep in mind that, while firsthand information is great, no single person can speak for all transgender folk, just as no single woman can speak for all lesbians or single man can speak for all gay men.

kukukupo:Gross. Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong. Don't push this crap on normal people.

So, I expect you'll be dressed in your government mandated attire the next time you're out? What's that? Oh right. There is no official dress code and people can wear whatever they like even if you personally find it obnoxious and silly.

Kind of like all those people that wear their pants halfway down(seriously pull yer g'damn pants up for crissakes).

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

It's tricky for those who went through puberty as a male to gain feminine form due to testosterone's effects on bone growth. Surgeons may have to shave down facial bones, Adams apple, etc and it's basically impossible to alter shoulders and hands. These days, those that were identified before puberty hit and got to take hormones are lucky. They don't have to deal with 50 years as a man and trying to change things.

People accept a slight somewhat delicate man much easier than a solidly built masculine woman. Even non-trans women get grief for not looking "feminine" enough.

Foxxinnia:God-is-a-Taco: As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.

Well homosexuality and transsexuality are two wildly different things, so makes sense why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the support of them.

You gotta remember that 47% of people's brains slam shut over any word with that ""sexuality" thing in it. No cognition, just shut the fark down.

RKade:I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!"

Well, I'm not an authority on this (lowest difficulty setting and an admittedly incomplete understanding of the subject), but I don't think all trans* people view the surgery the same way. Some trans* people are happy to just identify as the other gender without wanting to go through the surgery at all, and they're okay with being a man that happens to have a vagina or a woman who happens to have a penis. For those that want the surgery, I think it's more to do with wanting a body that physically matches their mental gender, so they choose to go through the counselling, hormones, surgery and all that.

So I guess it's more down to the individual trans* person; some are okay with how they are, others would appreciate the correction - asking the dealer for replacement cards instead of trying to use the hand they have, to clumsily continue the poker analogy.

/I welcome additions/corrections/slaps upside the head from actual trans* people that happen to read this.

atomicmask:Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march, most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

Atomicmask hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a troll. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.

Obviously, since God is omnipotent and can do, or avoid doing, anything He wishes, and since trans people exist, God wants them to exists. Or do you figure that maybe God is incompetent and didn't know what he was doing when he made them? I'd really like to hear that explanation. Please tell me how and why did God fark up and accidentally make people who make you feel uncomfortable. Where, exactly, did God go wrong?

Your only options at this point are toA) agree that God made trans people on purpose, in which case, they're OKB) Agree that God made trans people on purpose, but He shouldn't have, in which case God is a fark-up who doesn't live up to your standardsC) Admit that God made trans people by accident, in which case God is a fark-up who doesn't live up to your standards, orD) Admit that "God" is make believe and it's all in your head.

hardinparamedic:RKade: As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours.

I don't support your sinful lifestyle choice. You did not have to join the crips, you chose to be that way.

omeganuepsilon:itazurakko: I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.

FYI: It is a real condition with real science backing it, the mis-matching parts thing.

Granted, some of your individual experiences may be akin to something like aspergers or something, in that people wrongly self diagnose for the attention/status/impression of intelligence despite actions. But it is not only rhetoric on scale, the problem is real as can be exampled in medical journals.

That is why people find you offensive. You seem to be denying science based on your limited experiences. And even when it comes to your limited anecdotal experience, if you're not trained / educated in the field, you really have no way of knowing if you have an accurate grasp of that individual's circumstances. You seem to be making absolute(and and certainly wrong) claims in a field that you know relatively nothing about, based on your personal feelings of the topic and nothing else.

That is the thing isn't it? Trans folks aren't all the same. They don't come to it for the same reasons. It's hardly a black and white issue. For some it IS some psychological damage. For some it's chemical. For some it's a combination of issues. For some it is a matter of identity. Transvestites, transgender, it's a whole nest of things that aren't the same for everyone. And that is hard for some folks, who prefer easy answers, and black and white issues, that are clearly delineated, because thinking and considering is hard work, and people want convenience in issues, as opposed to taking the time to understand them, even a little.

A lot of folks just want pat answers. They want "they're just sick" to be the magic bullet, and then have another to "cure" folks. Easier than thinking, and America has long been hard on thinking...

The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic. There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world. By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer. We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments. So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder. It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong. It is what it is.

Is that the explanation for why, relative to their level of education, there are a disproportionate number of creationists who have engineering degrees?

mike_the_engineer:The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic. There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world. By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer. We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments. So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder. It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong. It is what it is.

So what we have here is an engineer who is arguing the "rigorous application of facts and logic", yet is going against the very "facts and logic" he claims to require rigorous application to. In reality, you're an astoundingly stunning example of Dunning-Kruger, and just like many other people who a part of the engineering profession, you're pontificating on things you have no idea or qualification to pontificate on. Like I said. Next time I want a blue print drawn, or some electrical wiring run, I'll call you.

Next time I want information on mental health, I'll go to people who actually know what they're talking about.

Hint: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.

itazurakko:In a sense it's a theory of the mind problem. You can't possibly know what it's like to be "the other sex" mentally or anything else. You know what it's like to be YOU. I can completely buy that people have gender dysphoria and extreme discomfort with their own genitalia. What I don't buy is that they "recognize" that they "think like" people who were born with female sex organs. There's no possible way for them to know that.

itazurakko:As a born woman (with the usual female naughty bits), I'm curious. Particularly given that I've not really matched any "you should do this and that because you're a girl" my entire life up to middle age, I'm very curious. I've never "felt like" a woman per se, I'm told I'm a woman, end of story.

Precisely. For most people the body and mind are predominantly aligned, so they never have cause to seriously question their gender. You've never not "felt like" a woman. For trans people it's practically impossible to not question their gender. As a result, those who are cisgender cannot understand what it's really like to be transgender, and those who are transgender cannot understand what it's really like to be cisgender.

As for the theory of the mind aspect, it isn't so binary. Say you're very young, growing up: you and others recognize that your thoughts and behaviors are atypical "for your gender." There are a lot of possibilities at this point. It could be that you're transsexual, it could be that you're just exploring gender in the way that children experiment and incorporate data into their psyche, it may be that you're homosexual (although I'm not sure that kind of thing is evident so early on), et cetera. In my opinion, the best approach for parents, doctors, and others is to take a conservative tack and try not to interfere or influence overmuch. The true situation--and proper diagnosis--should become evident before too long, and I'd venture that most of the time things will resolve themselves and you, the child in question, will turn out not to be transgender (because it's less common than the others).

Add into the mix the confusion that socialization can, erm, engender as one grows up and experiences life. The longer a transsexual person is perceived as and urged to present and behave as the "incorrect" gender, the less "normal" socialization he or she gets, regardless of whatever inherent physical brain differences there are. In this sense, socialization parallels the more apparent physiological changes of puberty. How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.

Above, I suggested that it's practically impossible for someone who's transgender to understand what it's really like to be cisgender, but perhaps if transition were (responsibly) effected early enough, the fallout from "the wrong puberty" and prolonged "improper socialization" would nearly eliminate that seemingly vast gulf. It certainly would minimize it.

Sometimes I think that some of the hate comes from people being jealous that someone else has either a)something to be proud about | or | b) have a community to be a member of.

I feel, with no proof or even support, just this feeling that a lot of people that would be around the center of that bell curve, on ANY social issue, feel themselves empty, or insubstantial. I am a white hetereosexual Native born male. In our modern digital society of everything being categorized and put into a pulldown menu or a radial button, I feel, and it very well could just be me, being my only test subject, that increased personal isolation makes one feel less relevant and diminishes our individuality and sense of worth. So If I, who doesn't get to check any boxes or pull-down any menus am more predisposed to be a dick, which i am not, my own emptiness feeding feelings of envy could act as a catalyst and push me a little bit towards thinking those people belong to something, I don't. I wish I belonged to something. But even though that is what occuring, it is much easier for me to not address these issues and just say "I hate it when those [insert pejorative] are alway making a big scene. Who do they think they are?

I think is for any group that has congregated for some public reason. Not to mention the volatile issue of sexuality and gender. I think, as a man, you have to honestly face yourself and ask yourself, and accept the answer, Am I gay? If you say yes, your gay, if no your not. But if that self confrontation isn't done honestly and fully, heterosexual men will have that little seed of insecurity which can grow if not weeded. And can become something that polarizes them even more of the issues of sexuality and gender. Which, in truth, should should be nothing that concerns them. But if they don't know for sure that they aren't gay, and this is most men imho, exposure to people that are declaring, proudly, that they ARE gay or transgendered or whatever can be a big threat to themselves. Seeing the group the viewer's own insecurites could arise and think "I think I'm not gay. pretty sure. maybe. ugh. but those people, they know they ARE gay (realizing of course, in a hetrosexual's mind gay kinda gets used as a blanket term for a wide, range of sexuality and gender issues) The man we are speaking of can't even address his own sexuality on the surface, he doesnt want to even question if he is or isnt gay, because there is a chance he might answer with a yes. So all of that anxiety if not addressed, can become fear and his self defence turns it to hate. And I believe this is what is called homophobia. So ad hominem attacks against people that have these issues, you just them for hate they display, are in a way a lazy way to make your life easier.

I am not saying that people being hateful are right. They are the antithesis of right. But they are almost programmed to hate, they themselves need it badly to help shore up, or ignore their own issues.

I guess my point is that NO ONE, isn't a beautiful and unique snowflake, but they we all are equally mind boggling complex creatures. That Nuclear family of the 50's even though they did nothing of significance, still experienced and had to deal with every second of their lives, and as no one has any previous experience of things they have not yet experienced, each moment is continually added to all of the previous moments in their specific life, creating the person that they are right now.

Or in other words, Everyone is continuously struggling, but some peoples issues are more visible, and those people aren't allowed the comfort to suffer in private. Their struggle is a visible one. So they have to suffer publicly. And no matter what you think, no one would put themselves through all of that public pain and discomfort voluntarily. that the know can be seen, and also know other people will notice.

SO I guess like I said, because I am confident that I am the orientation and gender I am, people of other orientations and gender IDs don't threaten me, I have never dwelled on the subject long enough for it to be something that I hold any strong view on. I am me and all that entails, and others are themselves with all of their own unique details. We all are suffering, we are all in our own unique pain, waiting for some speck of happiness to distract for a little bit from our condition. The universal human condition. Think this is really how everyone is equal and the same. This is our first time living now, and the uncomfortable future that is unknown, is a little scary. So don't be a dick. Everyone can just barely deal with all their own incredibly detailed life. Don't be a vampire and feed your emptyness by increasing someone elses pain.

OR not.. this is just what came out of my head, stream of consciousness style when I asked myself, "What do you honestly think about all of this?" (and sleep deprivation has contributed significantly, im sure)

omeganuepsilon:If you're going to jump in mid conversation and be indignant, fark it, I'm not responding to any points you think you've made, obvious re-directs and straw men that they are. Read all of my posts in the thread, comprehend them, then repost. At that point you'll have a clue, I know you're a reasonable sort( I know specifically you will understand, because when you Boobiesed you said a lot of the same things I already said), and I won't then have a desire to shiat on your inept trolling replies.

The majority of your posts in this thread are how it's either "pointless" to stand up to bigots and bullies - but if you have to, you should be nice about it and "take the moral high ground" or ignore them - even though speaking out against it makes you the bad guy "like them". Ignoring of course, the real-world costs of silence and the suffering it causes not just transgender, but anyone who is not part of the "normal" status quo.

Seriously. These are ALL your posts. You protest standing up against people who view TG/TS individuals as less than human beings far too much for someone who claims to have no dog in this hunt.

And then, a whole lot of trash about "redirects" and "strawmen" when people have called you out over this. These are your own words, omega, in this thread. Nothing but excuses for why people should be complacent little victims for those who would take advantage and harm them.

omeganuepsilon:It may strengthen your bonds as a group itself, help form a united front, but it can make you look just as bad as the opposition. That's what people from the outside commonly see. 2 assholes yelling at eachother. That outsider shrugs and goes back to his TV or WoW or Angry Birds.

I think that for a person to look at a group like transpeople, who have been marginalized, ostracized, and generally spit upon by a large chunk of American society, walking down the street in a parade proclaiming pride in their identity and think "those people are just as bad as the bigots"... well, I think that person would have to be a pretty enormous asshole for starters.

omeganuepsilon:Bigots will see it as a challenge, an insult, not as a demonstration of fact. You shouldn't "challenge" them to accept you, you should "convince" them.

There are people who are bigots, and then there are people who are prejudiced for various reasons (they are uneducated, inexperienced, indoctrinated, etc). The bigots are not the target... nothing you do will ever convince a bigot to accept you. But by standing up to the bigot instead of hiding in the closet, you have a shot at convincing the non-bigots that the bigots are wrong, and that you're worth just as much as any other person. I'm not trans, but I'm pretty sure that's the point of Pride.

Threadjack: It's kind of like what we're always talking about in the atheism threads. When your worldview is fundamentally based upon tribalism and conformity, no amount of civility or placating (short of complete silence) will ever be enough because the very existence of someone who is "other" is offensive. Hence the The signs on buses that say "There's probably no god, stop worrying and live your life" aren't aimed at the theists... they're aimed at the people whose minds are still open.

itazurakko:If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that. But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain works, no matter how annoying or inconvenient you may find it, any more than we're going to "stop with" research into evolution because creationists fit it annoying and inconvenient. Scientific truth (or as close to truth as we can get) must be discovered and made generally known no matter how well or poorly it fits with any person's political agenda or sociopolitical views.

Secondly, while your heart is in the right place, you are unfortunately in your own way as much denying the reality of transsexualism as any "these transwomen are just mentally ill men who mutilate their bodies!" transphobe. Like most human beings, transsexuals (generally speaking, there may be exceptions or caveats I'm overlooking) consider themselves to be completely male or completely female, not "both" or "neither" or "none of the above." That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being "both" or "neither" or "none of the above," but trying to push that identity on transsexuals is, again, ultimately as demeaning as what the garden-variety transphobes say.

Third, why are you so arrogant as to presume that a society without any gender roles whatsoever is what all humans everywhere should strive for? Maybe we WANT gender roles, or at least some of us do. Maybe we, some of us, LIKE them. There's a major difference between saying that an individual should have the freedom to deviate from the expected gender role of the society he or she lives in (on the one hand) and there shouldn't be any roles for anyone, whether they want them or not. Frankly, your presumption is not so much liberating as insulting.

spentshells:GhostFish: nyrB: GhostFish: So what's your stance on people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? How do you want to classify those people into your nice, clean binary definitions?

I don't have "nice clean binary definitions". I willingly recognize that there are a small percentage of people who don't fall into either the "male" or "female" category for various biological reasons. But this isn't really about them -- it's about the vast majority of those that consider themselves transgendered for purely psychological reasons. For me it's simple: if you're biologically a man, then you're a man. It reminds me of that Monty Python skit where the guy wanted a cat so the pet shop owner offered to take a dog, file his legs down, remove its snout, put some wires through its cheeks, and voila: a dog!

It's not like there are a lot of transgendered people out there. Who are you to say that the majority of them are acting out psychological conflicts rather than biological ones?

Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.

Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)

Resistance is and should be expected. We have a lot of instincts telling us to reject what's different. That's basic survival.

But if we don't want to be slaves to heuristics and the slow adaptability of evolution, we need to demand more from ourselves and others.

Life's not fair. But we will continue to work towards an approximation to fairness that fits with what we can know and agree upon.

RKade:I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.

nyrB:I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice. If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean? As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not. Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

serial_crusher:nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice. If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean? As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not. Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing. We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody.If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less. It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.

My biggest problem is that we, as a society are expected to "play along" and if we don't, we're somehow "intolerant". If you want to pretend you're something you're not that's fine. That's totally you're business. Pretend you're a tree for all I care. But don't expect me to call you a tree.

nyrB:I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice. If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean? As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not. Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

That's not really analogous since Napoleon is a specific person. There aren't many things outside of gender where people are pigeonholed into two boxes.

MechaPyx:RKade....You asked what would drive someone to seek out that kind of surgery and I'm not sure how to explain it adequately. Why does anyone do the things they do? It's complicated and the reasons why can vary from person to person.

Somewhere they came to the decision that it was the right choice for them. Like I said, it's their life, their body, their choice. They have to weigh the pros and cons and decide if this will provide them an overall quality of life improvement or not. Personally? I want the surgery but I don't feel current medical technique is up to the task even with the best surgeon. I have a friend who had surgery and seems thrilled with the results. She went to one of the best surgeons though. Unfortunately, they aren't all equal. There are a number of different techniques in use, some better than others(some are jealously guarded secrets) and the skill level of the surgeons varies. Some just aren't up to the task, in my opinion.

What you're asking gets to the root of what it means to be trans and I just don't have the words to explain that. I'm honestly not trying to be mean here. A little sarcastic I'll admit but not mean. If I'm defensive it's because I'm frequently asked to justify my life choices by people who have no right to ask. Sorry if I took that out on you.

ciberido:Additionally, I fail to see how describing bigotry as bigotry is itself bigotry, which is what you seem to be implying with "makes your side look just as bigoted."

You're referring to the tactic commonly used by racists and bigots of saying "You're the real intolerant racist/bigot for not letting me say what I want!", right?

To have a tolerant society, you have to reserve the right to be intolerant of those who would seek to destroy it through the avocation and promotion of racist, sexist, bigoted, or discriminatory ideals, and refuse to accept people who hide behind the bastardization of religion to do so. Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice.

Uh, that's not how MtF SRS works, and there is a huge controversy among providers, to the point of actively talking people out of undergoing genital reassignment currently, due to the risks of it. Even among infants who are born with sex-linked chromosomal gender disorders or ambiguous genitalia, doctors will hold off if possible (sometime's it's not) to assign a genital form until the concept of neurobiological gender is solidified.

Shedim:MrHappyRotter: Oh, and when in doubt, assume the person is a "he". It might seem sexist, but generally those who identify as female will let it slide, and those who identify will as male will be happy.

No. Pronouns don't work that way. If you must use pronouns at all, why not try these?

"If you must use pronouns at all"? Seriously? Have you ever tried NOT using sex-specific pronouns for a day? The Pronoun Game is not easy.

I challenge you to spend an otherwise normal day not using any pronouns which specify the sex of the people you're talking about. Come back and tell us how that day went.

runcible spork:By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.

ciberido:ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event? Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw. Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed. And the AA analogy wasn't a good one. But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group). It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know. It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible. It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.

Few decent people want to be attractive for what they are are rather than who they are.

JPINFV:mafiageek1980: JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?

Oh, yea, one more thing. Do you want to know how you didn't read my entire post? No really, want to know? Go back and re-read the second paragraph. You know, the one that starts with "On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transg ...

Oh I read the whole damn thing, thank you very much, but your quote about us, does NOT make up for the fact in the very next sentence you state :"That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive".

serial_crusher:JPINFV: I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.

Serious question here... when did sarcasm and adult conversation become mutually exclusive?

ciberido:It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual. A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa. "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity. To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender. If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."

I'm more confused at the people who can't seem to separate Gender from Sexual Fetishes (like Emassculation or Crossdressing), and seem to assume people who are either transsexual or transgendered are just trying to shove their "fetish" in other people's faces.

Come to think of it, inability to separate neurobiological or psychological concepts from sexual acts seems to be a running theme for the religious/social "conservatives"

omeganuepsilon:[cutting large chunk of text to save space and not annoy everyone else]

Like I mentioned a couple of posts back, my understanding is that "pride parades" are designed to counteract the shame that society aims at people just for existing the way they do. Granted, it may seem confrontational but it's a very easy way to raise awareness, which can also help to counter social shame. You don't get "straight parades" because you're not made to feel shameful, unwanted and generally less for it.

I think that is part of the problem. Simply calling it a "Pride" parade is self defeating if you're wishing to convince others you are equals, as it inherently comes off as arrogance. Bigots will see it as a challenge, an insult, not as a demonstration of fact. You shouldn't "challenge" them to accept you, you should "convince" them.

JPINFV:mafiageek1980: well, in that case, you might want to stay completely indoors if you don't want to see PDA, lol. And as far as the parade making your commute a LITTLE BIT LONGER, I suggest you never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or any other type of "Event"/"March" in your own town. Just curious, would you complain if it were say a 4th of july parade that was making your trip home longer? Oh and what if you saw a couple engaging in some patriotic PDA? Oh my goodness, how nasty!

I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.

I wasn't being sarcastic and I am sooo sorry I had to use a holiday parade to make my point. You (IHMO) made a statement about OUR pride parade holding you up from getting home. I merely asked you if another type of parade would have you so upset about being in traffic and if you saw a couple kissing at THAT parade would you find it so gross. But, you can read it as me being a smartass if you want. It's your choice, but that's the tone I intended my reply to be.

So you missed the entire part about the difference between "not proud because I didn't make a choice" and " not proud = ashamed." I'm not "proud" to be white, male, Catholic (never explored other religions), or American (never explored other countries). I'm not ashamed of those things either. I just am those things.

Are you suggesting that sexual orientation and gender identity are choices and not birth traits?

Nope.They can be both, depending on who you ask. But do YOU get picked on because you are white/male/catholic? Do YOU get bullied because of who you are? Do YOU get strange looks when you walk down the street? Can YOU go into a bathroom without their being screams and biatching about you being in the "wrong" bathroom?

mafiageek1980:well, in that case, you might want to stay completely indoors if you don't want to see PDA, lol. And as far as the parade making your commute a LITTLE BIT LONGER, I suggest you never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or any other type of "Event"/"March" in your own town. Just curious, would you complain if it were say a 4th of july parade that was making your trip home longer? Oh and what if you saw a couple engaging in some patriotic PDA? Oh my goodness, how nasty!

I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive.

How inconvenienced were you by the Pride parades and celebrations in your city this weekend? A lot? Remember that there are 51 other weekends every year, so don't worry, it won't happen too frequently.

Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I guess we have different opinions about what is disgusting. I consider genuine displays of affection to be pretty beautiful, even if I don't find the participants personally attractive.

Considering my goals this weekend is pretty much "stay the fark out of the heat," not that much. It doesn't change the fact that if I have to drive a mile or so out of my way because a parade of people saying "look at us, we're here!" than I'm going to be a little bit peeved. There's more than a slight difference between that and, say, a political protest (regardless of what they're arguing for and whether I support that argument) and a "look at us, we exist" parade.

As far as different opinions, awesome. Living in a world where everyone thinks exactly the same is rather boring. It doesn't change the fact that if I have a choice of watching people sucking face or not, I'd really rather not.

well, in that case, you might want to stay completely indoors if you don't want to see PDA, lol. And as far as the parade making your commute a LITTLE BIT LONGER, I suggest you never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or any other type of "Event"/"March" in your own town. Just curious, would you complain if it were say a 4th of july parade that was making your trip home longer? Oh and what if you saw a couple engaging in some patriotic PDA? Oh my goodness, how nasty!

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive.

How inconvenienced were you by the Pride parades and celebrations in your city this weekend? A lot? Remember that there are 51 other weekends every year, so don't worry, it won't happen too frequently.

Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I guess we have different opinions about what is disgusting. I consider genuine displays of affection to be pretty beautiful, even if I don't find the participants personally attractive.

Considering my goals this weekend is pretty much "stay the fark out of the heat," not that much. It doesn't change the fact that if I have to drive a mile or so out of my way because a parade of people saying "look at us, we're here!" than I'm going to be a little bit peeved. There's more than a slight difference between that and, say, a political protest (regardless of what they're arguing for and whether I support that argument) and a "look at us, we exist" parade.

As far as different opinions, awesome. Living in a world where everyone thinks exactly the same is rather boring. It doesn't change the fact that if I have a choice of watching people sucking face or not, I'd really rather not.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive.

How inconvenienced were you by the Pride parades and celebrations in your city this weekend? A lot? Remember that there are 51 other weekends every year, so don't worry, it won't happen too frequently.

Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I guess we have different opinions about what is disgusting. I consider genuine displays of affection to be pretty beautiful, even if I don't find the participants personally attractive.

Shedim:mafiageek1980: You did very well. I am in the category of "not wanting the surgery". I don't feel the NEED to have the surgery to feel like a dude even though I ID as a dude. and you are right: Each trans person is different. So yeah, you kick ass and all :) Thanks :)

Thank you and you're welcome. I'm not a total stranger to trans* issues, though my wife is more focused on the LGBTQI rights than I am so I get a good chunk of information from sources she's found and friends she's made.

She's also been about my only source - it seems the only decent information about trans* people comes from trans* people themselves. Which is handy in terms of getting good quality, firsthand information, but there isn't exactly a wealth of it in mainstream media (TV, film, literature, video games etc.). If I may go a little off-topic, what do you think could be done about getting more information out there in helpful ways?

/am I even making sense//amateur writer

well, the pride marches help, but as far as getting info out, I would suggest maybe Transfolk that are in college set up info booths (something like "ask a transperson), become more visible (in an positive and accurate way) in TV shows, perhaps maybe booths at local events (depending on the event, something like a health fair perhaps), etc.

bwilson27:I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

It's quite exciting to see people around here not only supporting the lgbt community but also responding to the trolls and those who are uneducated about the subject or simply unable to understand. Kudos :)

naw, I am more of a "Caturday" fan, but when threads like this appear, as a Trans person, I DO feel the need to leave my 2 cents and/or educate the curious. There have been people on Trans threads that have honest questions and don't just "bash", so, I am here to help, and if I have something to say, I will.

Yes, keep doing it. I don't know any transpeople in real life (to my knowledge), and reading these threads has been really enlightening. The alien is often naturally uncomfortable, so you help it less alien to to the rest of us. I know my own thinking has evolved substantially just through fark.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

This is because once upon a time most of them did look terrible, especially as they aged. Male puberty is a difficult thing to undo, chemically/hormonally speaking. In terms of physical appearance it is much easier to transition from female to male than male to female. However with more kids identifying as transgender earlier in life the "new crop" of adult male transsexuals have never gone through male puberty and as a consequence they look much more feminine as adults. No Photoshopping necessary.

These kinds of pictures always strike me as sad whether it's a woman by birth or otherwise (please correct my phrasing if that's off, I'm not intending to be unpleasant). No matter what path you take to womanhood, it seems cruel to boil it down to appearances alone. Are they less womanly if you don't ogle them?

naw, I am more of a "Caturday" fan, but when threads like this appear, as a Trans person, I DO feel the need to leave my 2 cents and/or educate the curious. There have been people on Trans threads that have honest questions and don't just "bash", so, I am here to help, and if I have something to say, I will.

atomicmask:Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march, most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

wow, since when did you become the expert by saying that 99% of us look "Terrible"? I take it you haven't met more than a couple of trans persons before and the one's you've seen are "ugly". Get out more, some of us DO look good ;)

NFA:A Google image search for transgender came up with these.Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.

Somebody went overboard on the Photoshop with those pictures; they look like mannequins. Especially the fourth one.

Not to threadjack, but good on them for being proud and marching. From my understanding, trans* people get a lot of flak (possibly more than any other non-heterosexual groups) so it's nice to see them unashamedly celebrating who they are.

FloydA:Paris1127: For some reason, I thought the headline said Seattle Transponder community...

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a farking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suit on hire purchase in a range of farking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fark you are on Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing farking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, farked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?