Thoughts? West played 2 seasons at SG and 12 at PG so idk why people act like they don't know what position he is. Wade played 1 season as a PG and the rest as a SG so does this make him a PG? Either way Wade is better than West. Isn't Elgin a SG or is he a SF? I think this list is better than the PG list though.

TDE

01-13-2016, 06:02 PM

I don't think Wade should be ranked higher than The freaking Logo in the All-time list, however I thought all along that West was a SG, if that's not the Case then he should be on this list

Shammyguy3

01-13-2016, 06:24 PM

Iverson should not be on this list. And Jerry West shouldn't either. Although the same thing kind of happens with Duncan - Duncan is a center, but people want to put him down as a PF so it's easy to say he's the best ever.

Take those two guys off, insert Vince Carter and Manu Ginobili near the bottom. If anyone thinks McGrady is a shooting guard then replace Manu with T-Mac

Wade n Fade

01-13-2016, 06:45 PM

Wade should be higher than Jerry West. Ray Allen is better than AI.

Vincent33

01-13-2016, 06:52 PM

Those are probably the top 10 in some order after Jordan and Kobe. I think arguments could be made for Sam Jones and maybe Maravich. Depends on how you're doing the rankings taking in career longevity and success, but Pete played the position as well as anyone in his prime though short lived it was.

WaDe03

01-13-2016, 07:10 PM

Can someone explain to me why people try and say West is a SG when he only played the position for 2 years? Even people on here do it and I just don't understand it.

flea

01-13-2016, 07:28 PM

Can someone explain to me why people try and say West is a SG when he only played the position for 2 years? Even people on here do it and I just don't understand it.

He was as much a SG as Jordan or Harden. Just because he was a primary ballhandler most of his career doesn't mean he was a PG - otherwise every star SG and most star SFs are PGs too. Like Harden and Jordan, he was capable of playing PG but he was a score-first guard. Traditionally, combo guards like that are regarded as SGs. It has to do with playing style, not who you defend, since pretty much every star player is capable of handling multiple positions.

WaDe03

01-13-2016, 07:35 PM

He was as much a SG as Jordan or Harden. Just because he was a primary ballhandler most of his career doesn't mean he was a PG - otherwise every star SG and most star SFs are PGs too. Like Harden and Jordan, he was capable of playing PG but he was a score-first guard. Traditionally, combo guards like that are regarded as SGs. It has to do with playing style, not who you defend, since pretty much every star player is capable of handling multiple positions.

You have a point. My only thing is that he only played 2 years listed as a SG he was listed as a PG for 12 years. I don't think people are going to list Westbrook Kyrie Lillard etc as SGs when their careers are over just because they're score first PGs.

Bruno

01-13-2016, 07:51 PM

not terrible.

beasted86

01-13-2016, 08:07 PM

As far as whether West was a SG or PG, I often hear him discussed as both. If they are counting him as a SG, I can go along with the edge over Wade out of respect, and I'm sure Dwyane himself would probably be cool with that idea to honor the guys way before him.

But if you're asking me for real, for real.... the inflated stats in such a rudimentary league played at a breakneck pace aren't really valid in all time comparisons. It was a whole different game. I almost always feel like the NBA needs to be divided into the pre and post shot clock era to have any real substance behind comparisons of players/teams/coaches. You can almost even take it further I feel and make it later as in pre NBA players union/CBA and post.

You can't compare West and Wade the same way you can't compare any modern team's championship run to the Celtics winning 8 straight in a league with like 8-10 teams. Just how I see it.

TheMightyHumph

01-13-2016, 08:48 PM

Those are probably the top 10 in some order after Jordan and Kobe. I think arguments could be made for Sam Jones and maybe Maravich. Depends on how you're doing the rankings taking in career longevity and success, but Pete played the position as well as anyone in his prime though short lived it was.

Gotta ask. Maravich?

jayjay33

01-13-2016, 08:55 PM

Good list but pearl was better than Miller. And Mac is better than west. Not 3rd but in the 10 instead of west.

JasonJohnHorn

01-13-2016, 11:25 PM

I can name about a half dozen SGs I'd put on that list before Iverson in addition to the ones they got ahead of him.

That aside, I'd also count Iverson as a PG, since that's where he spent half his career, and when he was on the floor, he handled the ball most of the time.

I won't put up guys like Theus, Goodrich, Greer and Murphy, but they were all special players in their era who are deserving of recognition.

I think you could make a case for Joe Johnson and Vince Carter as well.

Joe Johnson?

FlashBolt

01-14-2016, 12:59 AM

Wade should be #3 and Iverson being that high just shows ESPN values high volume scorers.

Vincent33

01-14-2016, 03:03 AM

Gotta ask. Maravich?

If you're asking for someone in their absolute prime, I think he'd be in the conversation. Obviously he falls way short over an entire career. He's an eyesore with the analytics/advanced metrics, but all old tapes I've seen he was so much fun to watch handling the basketball, creating shots/passes, way ahead of his time. He was not meant for that era of basketball. Its too bad he injured his knees and was never the same his last few years.

basch152

01-14-2016, 05:42 AM

Iverson above gervin? Smh

valade16

01-14-2016, 10:53 AM

Which SG below AI won an MVP and led their team to the Finals?

CarolinaCDM

01-14-2016, 11:15 AM

Iverson should not be on this list. And Jerry West shouldn't either. Although the same thing kind of happens with Duncan - Duncan is a center, but people want to put him down as a PF so it's easy to say he's the best ever.

Take those two guys off, insert Vince Carter and Manu Ginobili near the bottom. If anyone thinks McGrady is a shooting guard then replace Manu with T-Mac

IF T-Mac is considered a shooting guard, then he is easily 3rd best all-time...don't let injuries fool you, in his prime t-mac was as deadly as it gets..i vividly remeber the game he dropped 62 and sat out the entire 4th qtr, or the time he dropped 13 pts in 33 seconds to come back and beat the spurs...the man was something else

Tony_Starks

01-14-2016, 11:34 AM

Iverson should be higher....

Dade County

01-14-2016, 11:51 AM

Wade should be number 2 on the list

valade16

01-14-2016, 11:59 AM

IF T-Mac is considered a shooting guard, then he is easily 3rd best all-time...don't let injuries fool you, in his prime t-mac was as deadly as it gets..i vividly remeber the game he dropped 62 and sat out the entire 4th qtr, or the time he dropped 13 pts in 33 seconds to come back and beat the spurs...the man was something else

If we're talking peak even then he's not above MJ, Kobe, Wade, West or Drexler. T-Mac's 02-03 was a better singular season than any Drexler had but Clyde has the next 3 best seasons between them (and 3 of the best 4 after that). Also figure all of those 5 were superior defenders to T-Mac.

T-Mac would move up a peak list (as would Penny), but those 5 are the best SGs ever.

Gander13SM

01-14-2016, 12:33 PM

Don't do all time lists but I will say this; basketball is becoming more and more positionless (thankfully) I think it's time people just started quoting their top 20 guards (pg/sg), wings (sg/sf) and big men (Cs/PFs)... If anything.

West could play both if he had to. Same with Timmy at PF/C. I don't see why we should be putting them in a box. But as humans, and especially sports fans, we love doing that and it will probably never change.

YAALREADYKNO

01-14-2016, 12:47 PM

Wade should be number 2 on the list

Or nah

TheMightyHumph

01-14-2016, 12:47 PM

Don't do all time lists but I will say this; basketball is becoming more and more positionless (thankfully) I think it's time people just started quoting their top 20 guards (pg/sg), wings (sg/sf) and big men (Cs/PFs)... If anything.

West could play both if he had to. Same with Timmy at PF/C. I don't see why we should be putting them in a box. But as humans, and especially sports fans, we love doing that and it will probably never change.

Thoughts? West played 2 seasons at SG and 12 at PG so idk why people act like they don't know what position he is. Wade played 1 season as a PG and the rest as a SG so does this make him a PG? Either way Wade is better than West. Isn't Elgin a SG or is he a SF? I think this list is better than the PG list though.

Can someone explain to me why people try and say West is a SG when he only played the position for 2 years? Even people on here do it and I just don't understand it.

He was as much a SG as Jordan or Harden. Just because he was a primary ballhandler most of his career doesn't mean he was a PG - otherwise every star SG and most star SFs are PGs too. Like Harden and Jordan, he was capable of playing PG but he was a score-first guard. Traditionally, combo guards like that are regarded as SGs. It has to do with playing style, not who you defend, since pretty much every star player is capable of handling multiple positions.

Exactly if being the primary ball handler means you are a PG then why has LeBron never been listed as a guard but always a SF or PF. West was an elite scorer who could facilitate. This is why he fits better in the Jordan/Kobe description of his position as a SG. I'd be interested to look at tapes and see if he was guarding opposing PGs though. My guess is no that he would check the best wing player.

In no bizarro world should Drexler be over AI. They couldn't even stop him with a zone defense. The only thing that stopped Iverson was pride,booze, and domestic problems.

WaDe03

01-14-2016, 01:42 PM

Are Westbrook Lillard Kyrie and Steph SGs? I'll say this again idk why people are having such a hard time understanding it. West was a PG 12 years and a SG 2. If he started at PG for 8 seasons then moved to SG the next 2 seasons and finished the rest of his career at PG does that make him a SG? No it doesn't. Regardless Wade is better. Put Wade in that era and he's known as God. West was 1-8 in the finals. 1-8!

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 01:52 PM

West was a PG much of his career, but I don't mind the rankings. I think Earl was better than Reggie myself. Hell I might even throw Vince ahead of Miller. Iverson is also too high, but I am an aversion to chuckers

valade16

01-14-2016, 02:04 PM

West was a PG much of his career, but I don't mind the rankings. I think Earl was better than Reggie myself. Hell I might even throw Vince ahead of Miller. Iverson is also too high, but I am an aversion to chuckers

Why do you have Reggie so low? Dude was ultra-efficient, an elite 3 point shooter, led his team to the Finals and had innumerable clutch moments.

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 02:06 PM

Why do you have Reggie so low? Dude was ultra-efficient, an elite 3 point shooter, led his team to the Finals and had innumerable clutch moments.

I just don't value what Reggie did like others. Look at his accolades, awards, all NBA teams. They are very lacking. He essentially was an efficient scorer who did nothing else. Like nothing. His big shots here and there distort people's view of him honestly. At the end of the day, he was an efficient 19 a night. Poor defender, didn't facilitate, and I just don't view him as this all timer like some do.

People will hate me for this, but to me, he is basically a better version of Kevin Martin. I just think people think of Reggie, and they immediately think of the Garden heroics, without really looking at his body of work.

valade16

01-14-2016, 02:09 PM

In no bizarro world should Drexler be over AI. They couldn't even stop him with a zone defense. The only thing that stopped Iverson was pride,booze, and domestic problems.

Have to disagree. Clyde led his teams to 2 Finals to AI's one (and won one as a #2) and was 2nd in the MVP voting in 91-92 to MJ. He was a more efficient scorer, a better rebounder, miles better defensively, and was nearly as good at getting steals and as a passer.

I'm way higher on AI than most on this site, but Clyde > AI

Bron > Kobe

01-14-2016, 02:11 PM

PSD has an agenda obviously. Anyone who doesnt think AI is a top 10 sg is foolish or they are to young to see him play.

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 02:12 PM

PSD has an agenda obviously. Anyone who doesnt think AI is a top 10 sg is foolish or they are to young to see him play.

he is top 10, just near the bottom of it

Tony_Starks

01-14-2016, 02:18 PM

In no bizarro world should Drexler be over AI. They couldn't even stop him with a zone defense. The only thing that stopped Iverson was pride,booze, and domestic problems.

Have to disagree. Clyde led his teams to 2 Finals to AI's one (and won one as a #2) and was 2nd in the MVP voting in 91-92 to MJ. He was a more efficient scorer, a better rebounder, miles better defensively, and was nearly as good at getting steals and as a passer.

I'm way higher on AI than most on this site, but Clyde > AI

Well I guess that depends on where you stand on the great psd AI debate. There seems to be 2 groups: 1 that was extremely impressed with his single handed Finals run, and another group that didn't see it as anything particularly special.

I'm in the first group. That Finals run was hands down the most impressive I have seen by 1 player to this date.

Clyde was the better all around player, I'll give you that. His team was FAR better than Iversons. Also he can't hold a candle to Iverson in scoring, AI is in the Kobe/MJ scoring category.

I'll give the nod to Iverson since scoring is the sg's primary job.

Chronz

01-14-2016, 02:21 PM

You have a point. My only thing is that he only played 2 years listed as a SG he was listed as a PG for 12 years. I don't think people are going to list Westbrook Kyrie Lillard etc as SGs when their careers are over just because they're score first PGs.

Nah man, we've just retroactively assigned him that position, in his day you were either a guard a forward or a center, there were no distinctions between the 2 when he first started.

Now today we can look back and agree, the guy who led the league in assists was his teams PG. But what about all those other years when the league was smaller, he was a Forward in College and transitioned to guard in the pros, he was more of scorer early on so doesn't that make him more of a SG?

I put him at PG when I do these rankings just because I think he would translate into that position more in todays game (and adds to the talent pool) but he could definitely get away with either designation.

ewing

01-14-2016, 02:21 PM

I just don't value what Reggie did like others. Look at his accolades, awards, all NBA teams. They are very lacking. He essentially was an efficient scorer who did nothing else. Like nothing. His big shots here and there distort people's view of him honestly. At the end of the day, he was an efficient 19 a night. Poor defender, didn't facilitate, and I just don't view him as this all timer like some do.

People will hate me for this, but to me, he is basically a better version of Kevin Martin. I just think people think of Reggie, and they immediately think of the Garden heroics, without really looking at his body of work.

Reggie should 6 or 7 on this list.

valade16

01-14-2016, 02:22 PM

I just don't value what Reggie did like others. Look at his accolades, awards, all NBA teams. They are very lacking. He essentially was an efficient scorer who did nothing else. Like nothing. His big shots here and there distort people's view of him honestly. At the end of the day, he was an efficient 19 a night. Poor defender, didn't facilitate, and I just don't view him as this all timer like some do.

People will hate me for this, but to me, he is basically a better version of Kevin Martin. I just think people think of Reggie, and they immediately think of the Garden heroics, without really looking at his body of work.

What about the Pacer's success during his tenure? They went to 5 ECFs and 1 Finals. If you look at the teams, he was clearly the leader/best player on those teams, nor were those teams disproportionately talented to explain their success without Reggie being a big part of it?

I also want to ask if you view Ray Allen similarly? Because Reggie actually has more All-NBA team appearances than Ray (3 to 2). If not for Ray joining Boston and Miami, there's very little that separates a peak Allen with a peak Reggie accolade wise.

ewing

01-14-2016, 02:25 PM

What about the Pacer's success during his tenure? They went to 5 ECFs and 1 Finals. If you look at the teams, he was clearly the leader/best player on those teams, nor were those teams disproportionately talented to explain their success without Reggie being a big part of it?

I also want to ask if you view Ray Allen similarly? Because Reggie actually has more All-NBA team appearances than Ray (3 to 2). If not for Ray joining Boston and Miami, there's very little that separates a peak Allen with a peak Reggie accolade wise.

except that Reggie was a playoff beast and Ray was hit or miss.

ewing

01-14-2016, 02:32 PM

Reggie is his generation James Harding without the benefits of dorks saying but look at his TS%. He was a great player with a really annoying game and gets less credit then he deserves b/c of it. Unlike Harden he actually was an above average defender.

FlashBolt

01-14-2016, 02:34 PM

In no bizarro world should Drexler be over AI. They couldn't even stop him with a zone defense. The only thing that stopped Iverson was pride,booze, and domestic problems.

Stop lying to yourself. Iverson was average at defense, a strictly high volume scorer who gets way too much credit for "leading" that team to the NBA Finals in what was a very weak conference. His team was filled with defensive players who never got credit. Iverson played upwards into the 40 minutes range per game and his USG% was way too high so what you got was one player having the most possession in the game than any other in NBA history. I give him credit for being fearless in attacking the basket and being that small but he's not as good as you believe he was.

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 02:34 PM

Reggie should 6 or 7 on this list.

we have discussed this. Furthermore, I don't take a Knicks fan seriously when it comes to Miller, no offense. He had some heroic moments against your team, of course he would be rated as a higher level player by a fan from a team that he tormented.

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 02:39 PM

What about the Pacer's success during his tenure? They went to 5 ECFs and 1 Finals. If you look at the teams, he was clearly the leader/best player on those teams, nor were those teams disproportionately talented to explain their success without Reggie being a big part of it?

I also want to ask if you view Ray Allen similarly? Because Reggie actually has more All-NBA team appearances than Ray (3 to 2). If not for Ray joining Boston and Miami, there's very little that separates a peak Allen with a peak Reggie accolade wise.

His teams were excellent, and he was their best player, but he had a PG who is way up there on the assist list, punishing big men to set him up on picks and defend the paint, and go look at his teammates efficiency during that time period. He had excellent coaching as well.

I get it. He had some huge moments. But he was a 19 a game guy who did it efficiently, and didn't really do anything else.

Ray was a better defender for sure. His Seattle teams never really had as much talent, and he also played there when the west had hit it's upswing and winning 50 games meant you were on the road to start the playoffs. But they are much different to me, I personally think Ray had a better all around game, but his efficiency wasn't quite at Miller's level.

ewing

01-14-2016, 02:40 PM

we have discussed this. Furthermore, I don't take a Knicks fan seriously when it comes to Miller, no offense. He had some heroic moments against your team, of course he would be rated as a higher level player by a fan from a team that he tormented.

you underrate every EFC player and team from that Era except Jordan and the Bulls. I am not the with a basis here. Reggie's body of work backs me up.

flea

01-14-2016, 02:42 PM

The more I hear Reggie call games the lower he drops on my all-time lists.

valade16

01-14-2016, 02:43 PM

Well I guess that depends on where you stand on the great psd AI debate. There seems to be 2 groups: 1 that was extremely impressed with his single handed Finals run, and another group that didn't see it as anything particularly special.

I'm in the first group. That Finals run was hands down the most impressive I have seen by 1 player to this date.

Clyde was the better all around player, I'll give you that. His team was FAR better than Iversons. Also he can't hold a candle to Iverson in scoring, AI is in the Kobe/MJ scoring category.

I'll give the nod to Iverson since scoring is the sg's primary job.

Oh I'm firmly in the first camp. I've had numerous debates with people on here about AI and how he is being underrated on here.

And while I do agree his Finals run was amazing, I have a few other playoff/finals runs ahead of his even amongst wing players.

And while AI was a better scorer, Clyde in his prime was dropping 27 PPG, I personally would take 4-5 PPG less to get better defense, rebounding, etc.

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 02:44 PM

you underrate every EFC player and team from that Era except Jordan and the Bulls. I am not the with a basis here. Reggie's body of work backs me up.

Nah, I don't. Reggie's body of work is 19 a game on great efficiency, and nothing else man. 5 all star games, 3 all NBA (3rd teams), never finished top 10 in MVP voting, never grabbed 4 boards a game, wasn't a good defender, etc.

People's brains work funny. It's why GM's and fans always thought Kobe was the most clutch, when he indeed was nowhere close. They remember big shots, or big moments, and ignore the "body of work".

ewing

01-14-2016, 02:47 PM

His teams were excellent, and he was their best player, but he had a PG who is way up there on the assist list, punishing big men to set him up on picks and defend the paint, and go look at his teammates efficiency during that time period. He had excellent coaching as well.

I get it. He had some huge moments. But he was a 19 a game guy who did it efficiently, and didn't really do anything else.

Ray was a better defender for sure. His Seattle teams never really had as much talent, and he also played there when the west had hit it's upswing and winning 50 games meant you were on the road to start the playoffs. But they are much different to me, I personally think Ray had a better all around game, but his efficiency wasn't quite at Miller's level.

Ray had one winning year in Seattle. They overachieved with Nate McMillian one year and won 50 games. He didn't have great treammates there but he didn't win many games either.

Chronz

01-14-2016, 02:53 PM

I remember the list they made in 08 or so, looks like AI and Drexler have swapped places and although they dropped Gervin abit, I think he needs to be alot lower.

I value the players actual talent/skill more than how good their teammates were, so for that reason I have Tmac on my list. People hold his teammates relative lack of talent against him far too much, and the other complaint, his longevity is actually underrated. Among SG's, only Kobe, Gervin, West and Wade have been selected to more All-NBA teams, he even racked up more "MVP shares" than some on there, dude was legitimately in the discussion for best player in the league at one point, at the very least he was the best perimeter guy and it wasn't a fluke season either, dude consistently elevated his teams well beyond their talent level.

That matters more to me than if you played a 2 decades at an All-Star level, longevity is something alot of guys cant really control, you have infinitely more control over how good you actually are so I give that more credit than some on here.

valade16

01-14-2016, 02:56 PM

Nah, I don't. Reggie's body of work is 19 a game on great efficiency, and nothing else man. 5 all star games, 3 all NBA (3rd teams), never finished top 10 in MVP voting, never grabbed 4 boards a game, wasn't a good defender, etc.

People's brains work funny. It's why GM's and fans always thought Kobe was the most clutch, when he indeed was nowhere close. They remember big shots, or big moments, and ignore the "body of work".

From 90-98 he was a 21 PPG guy.

And he didn't have Mark Jackson for his first ECF run.

I just think there's something to be said for carrying your team, and while he did have good teams, I don't think anyone would say those teams were better than most other teams of the era (Bulls, Knicks, Heat, Magic, Spurs, Jazz, Rockets, Suns) and yet they managed as impressive a resume as all but the Bulls, Rockets and Jazz.

FlashBolt

01-14-2016, 02:58 PM

Ray had one winning year in Seattle. They overachieved with Nate McMillian one year and won 50 games. He didn't have great treammates there but he didn't win many games either.

And plenty of great ones with Boston. Not sure what you're getting at here but Ray was much more suited to carry teams than Reggie Miller -- who had to rely on other teammates for his game to function. Ray worked for various of reasons: he could play second/third fiddle but also take over games. You never saw Reggie exceed at either or and his name gets thrown around as if he was an absolute beast. The reality is Reggie's name has benefited off Jordan.

kdspurman

01-14-2016, 02:59 PM

The more I hear Reggie call games the lower he drops on my all-time lists.

Ha, seriously. He is the worst

ewing

01-14-2016, 03:05 PM

And plenty of great ones with Boston. Not sure what you're getting at here but Ray was much more suited to carry teams than Reggie Miller -- who had to rely on other teammates for his game to function. Ray worked for various of reasons: he could play second/third fiddle but also take over games. You never saw Reggie exceed at either or and his name gets thrown around as if he was an absolute beast. The reality is Reggie's name has benefited off Jordan.

I was responding to Hawk post which mentioned that Ray teams in Sea didn't have a lot of talent. I thought it made it seem like they won a lot of games despite that. They did not. As for Reggie and Ray- both guys ran without the ball a lot. Reggie however was 6'7, posted up often, and got to the foul line regularly. Ray was prettier and in a movie. He was not a better scorer with or without the ball. Reggie was just better 1st, 2nd, or 3rd fiddle

Hawkeye15

01-14-2016, 03:17 PM

From 90-98 he was a 21 PPG guy.

And he didn't have Mark Jackson for his first ECF run.

I just think there's something to be said for carrying your team, and while he did have good teams, I don't think anyone would say those teams were better than most other teams of the era (Bulls, Knicks, Heat, Magic, Spurs, Jazz, Rockets, Suns) and yet they managed as impressive a resume as all but the Bulls, Rockets and Jazz.

Reggie didn't carry a team.

ewing

01-14-2016, 03:21 PM

Seriously those Pacer teams played at a furious pace.

mngopher35

01-14-2016, 03:55 PM

I actually think this list is pretty good but I have a few thoughts/opinions on some of these guys and the discussions.

There is no way Iverson should move up, if anything he's going down. Tmac has a good argument for being on the list, he makes mine at least in the 10 spot. West could be considered a pg but as was pointed out he started as a wing and many times was defending top players on the wings as well (having the ball doesn't make you a pg, see Lebron/Harden/Iverson etc.), I have no issue with him here really. Ray/Miller is almost a wash, I would have a really hard time choosing between them.

valade16

01-14-2016, 03:59 PM

Reggie didn't carry a team.

Which of the below 90's Conf. Finals teams did the Pacers have more talent or were better than?

Bulls
Knicks
Magic
Heat
Jazz
Blazers
Suns
Sonics
Rockets

ewing

01-14-2016, 04:28 PM

you know Reggie and Ray Allen did face off in an elimination game during the 2000 playoffs. One of them got to the line 10 times and hit 12 2 point field goals. sounds like a dude that get his own

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200005040IND.html

FlashBolt

01-14-2016, 04:34 PM

you know Reggie and Ray Allen did face off in an elimination game during the 2000 playoffs. One of them got to the line 10 times and hit 12 2 point field goals. sounds like a dude that get his own

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200005040IND.html

So you nitpicked one game in a series in which Reggie played better and think it is somehow sufficient proof? Ray Allen outplayed him for that series is what I'm seeing and it's incredibly a small sample size when you consider their long careers.

ewing

01-14-2016, 04:57 PM

So you nitpicked one game in a series in which Reggie played better and think it is somehow sufficient proof? Ray Allen outplayed him for that series is what I'm seeing and it's incredibly a small sample size when you consider their long careers.

You want other examples of Reggie being a absolute playoff beast? A past his prime Reggie Miller scored more, shot better, he also defended 3 spots in the series, then he completely dominated Ray in an elimination game. Reggie was better then Ray off the ball and in isolation. He was also one of the best playoff performers of all time.

basch152

01-14-2016, 05:20 PM

Iverson wouldn't make my top 10.

All he was was a low efficiency volume scorer. Wasn't a great rebounder, defender, facilitator, all he could do was score through insane usage, with lackluster efficiency.

If you put him on a real championship contender his weaknesses would be exposed. His lack of passing and defense, and that he requires a lot of shots to be effective, he would take shots away from other players without making them better.

I'd say he wouldn't even be in my top 15. Players like that never lead championship teams.

valade16

01-14-2016, 06:13 PM

So you nitpicked one game in a series in which Reggie played better and think it is somehow sufficient proof? Ray Allen outplayed him for that series is what I'm seeing and it's incredibly a small sample size when you consider their long careers.

How?

nycericanguy

01-14-2016, 06:21 PM

damn never realized how many MPG Iverson played. 41.1 for his career! he was a unique player, but I don't think he belongs in top 10 SG. way too inefficient.

Short sample size but I'm seeing Ray Allen was the better player who put up better numbers.

Reggie put up more PPG, on better efficiency, and stepped up huge when it mattered most. that series aside, if you want to compare playoff careers you will find the same thing but the gap is wider.

Quinnsanity

01-14-2016, 07:31 PM

I'm probably gonna **** on for saying this, but peak Wade was better than peak Kobe

(cue the Laker fans)

valade16

01-14-2016, 07:52 PM

Iverson wouldn't make my top 10.

All he was was a low efficiency volume scorer. Wasn't a great rebounder, defender, facilitator, all he could do was score through insane usage, with lackluster efficiency.

If you put him on a real championship contender his weaknesses would be exposed. His lack of passing and defense, and that he requires a lot of shots to be effective, he would take shots away from other players without making them better.

I'd say he wouldn't even be in my top 15. Players like that never lead championship teams.

Neither do any of the one dimensional High efficiency scorers below him.

ewing

01-14-2016, 08:02 PM

Neither do any of the one dimensional High efficiency scorers below him.

good point. AI has flaws and so to these other players. One thing i do down grade AI for was is his inability to transition after philly. In general i think AI is either overrated or under rated by most.

Bron > Kobe

01-14-2016, 08:13 PM

People have Manu as a top 10 sg of all time?

Chronz

01-14-2016, 08:36 PM

People have Manu as a top 10 sg of all time?

He was a franchise player who was kept in a reserve role to preserve his body. Its a tough job to rank him due to that situation but I do think Manu could have gotten more fame and a shorter career had he joined the Nuggets when they went after him. Maybe this was the best situation for his legacy, maybe not. Would you have appreciated Manu more had he gotten 38MPG (putting up sexy 25-5-5 lines) but suffered through various injury plagued seasons?

KingPosey

01-14-2016, 08:52 PM

I can name about a half dozen SGs I'd put on that list before Iverson in addition to the ones they got ahead of him.

That aside, I'd also count Iverson as a PG, since that's where he spent half his career, and when he was on the floor, he handled the ball most of the time.

I won't put up guys like Theus, Goodrich, Greer and Murphy, but they were all special players in their era who are deserving of recognition.

I think you could make a case for Joe Johnson and Vince Carter as well.
being loyal in terrible circumstances KILL Mitch's legend. Hes an all time great. If he didn't run into the Jordan era youre talking about the best SG in the league for at least a half decade, if not longer. Jordan is quoted as saying he was by far his toughest opponent to face, he faced CONSTANT double and triple teams as well. If there was any footage of our old ****** Kings teams youd see how awful it was for him and he was still a killer.

WaDe03

01-14-2016, 09:57 PM

I'm probably gonna **** on for saying this, but peak Wade was better than peak Kobe

(cue the Laker fans)

I obviously agree lol. This is based on both peak and career though.

Chronz

01-14-2016, 11:24 PM

Good call on Mitch Richmond, one of the most skilled guards Ive ever seen, if only he had the hops. He lost what little jumping ability he had fairly quickly and it stunted his impact in Sacramento. Hes not overly productive but he was very efficient and equally adept with and without the ball.

Does anyone know why he left GS?

Hawkeye15

01-15-2016, 12:49 AM

Good call on Mitch Richmond, one of the most skilled guards Ive ever seen, if only he had the hops. He lost what little jumping ability he had fairly quickly and it stunted his impact in Sacramento. Hes not overly productive but he was very efficient and equally adept with and without the ball.

Does anyone know why he left GS?

Don Nelson at the time, had a 1-2-3, of Hardaway-Richmond-Mullin, and wanted the team to get bigger. Billy Owens was drafted by the Kings, but didn't want any part of them, and was considered a great prospect, and had the size. Nelson pulled the trigger. In turn, Sac gladly pulled the trigger for a 25 year old averaging 22 a night for a guy that hadn't played a game and didn't want to be there.

IKnowHoops

01-15-2016, 01:26 AM

Iverson gets no love, even though he is probably the most skilled player to ever live.

Saying West is better than D Wade is like thinking Marciano will beat Tyson.

If I knew Iverson would play the game the right way, he's probably the best PG in history. Dude averaged 33/8 one year. He can get anywhere on the court he wants, more so than any PG in history, he just ball hogged yes, took bad shots yes, but was still pretty unstoppable considering all defenses he faced were geared to stop him and he would still just go right at them and score at 41%. He could do anything with a basketball, don't get it twisted, he just played the game the wrong way. But he was on a team full of bruce bowens. Yeah they d up, but man without Ivo that team would be scoring in the 70's on average.

Hawkeye15

01-15-2016, 02:38 AM

stfu footlong

IKnowHoops

01-15-2016, 02:43 AM

I don't think Wade should be ranked higher than The freaking Logo in the All-time list, however I thought all along that West was a SG, if that's not the Case then he should be on this list

Worst reason I've seen on PSD

IKnowHoops

01-15-2016, 02:46 AM

stfu footlong

:laugh::laugh::laugh:..................:dance::dan ce::dance::dance::dance::dance:................... ....:basehit:, but these balls are not wiffle. Hit em in triples........................#blessed#thankful#h ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Bron > Kobe

01-15-2016, 03:37 AM

He was a franchise player who was kept in a reserve role to preserve his body. Its a tough job to rank him due to that situation but I do think Manu could have gotten more fame and a shorter career had he joined the Nuggets when they went after him. Maybe this was the best situation for his legacy, maybe not. Would you have appreciated Manu more had he gotten 38MPG (putting up sexy 25-5-5 lines) but suffered through various injury plagued seasons?

Hey bro, it is what it is. If T-mac wasn't hurt most of his career he would be number 2 in my eyes. He may have even been 1b honestly. But he was hurt so thats, that. My point is that Ginobli is a sixth man, and a sixth man isn't top ten anything no matter what the circumstances are.

Bron > Kobe

01-15-2016, 03:39 AM

Iverson gets no love, even though he is probably the most skilled player to ever live.

Saying West is better than D Wade is like thinking Marciano will beat Tyson.

If I knew Iverson would play the game the right way, he's probably the best PG in history. Dude averaged 33/8 one year. He can get anywhere on the court he wants, more so than any PG in history, he just ball hogged yes, took bad shots yes, but was still pretty unstoppable considering all defenses he faced were geared to stop him and he would still just go right at them and score at 41%. He could do anything with a basketball, don't get it twisted, he just played the game the wrong way. But he was on a team full of bruce bowens. Yeah they d up, but man without Ivo that team would be scoring in the 70's on average.

This is pretty much how i remember it. Iverson was a freaking BEAST. Just a head strong beast

ewing

01-15-2016, 06:31 AM

Iverson gets no love, even though he is probably the most skilled player to ever live.

Saying West is better than D Wade is like thinking Marciano will beat Tyson.

If I knew Iverson would play the game the right way, he's probably the best PG in history. Dude averaged 33/8 one year. He can get anywhere on the court he wants, more so than any PG in history, he just ball hogged yes, took bad shots yes, but was still pretty unstoppable considering all defenses he faced were geared to stop him and he would still just go right at them and score at 41%. He could do anything with a basketball, don't get it twisted, he just played the game the wrong way. But he was on a team full of bruce bowens. Yeah they d up, but man without Ivo that team would be scoring in the 70's on average.

why? b/c they are white?

jayjay33

01-15-2016, 07:41 AM

Iverson gets no love, even though he is probably the most skilled player to ever live.

Saying West is better than D Wade is like thinking Marciano will beat Tyson.

If I knew Iverson would play the game the right way, he's probably the best PG in history. Dude averaged 33/8 one year. He can get anywhere on the court he wants, more so than any PG in history, he just ball hogged yes, took bad shots yes, but was still pretty unstoppable considering all defenses he faced were geared to stop him and he would still just go right at them and score at 41%. He could do anything with a basketball, don't get it twisted, he just played the game the wrong way. But he was on a team full of bruce bowens. Yeah they d up, but man without Ivo that team would be scoring in the 70's on average.

why? b/c they are white?

No, because they don't have anywhere near the talent.

jayjay33

01-15-2016, 07:45 AM

I'd also put Brandon Roy on my list. I understand people won't think he played long enough. But I don't have a single doubt he's one of the best sg's I'v ever seen.

Kashmir13579

01-15-2016, 08:46 AM

Reggie should be a tad higher...

valade16

01-15-2016, 01:36 PM

I'd also put Brandon Roy on my list. I understand people won't think he played long enough. But I don't have a single doubt he's one of the best sg's I'v ever seen.

Brandon Roy is an interesting case. But if we're going in terms of peak before injuries/etc. is he ahead of any of the following:

T-Mac
Grant Hill
Penny

My gut instinct is no.

ewing

01-15-2016, 02:06 PM

Brandon Roy is an interesting case. But if we're going in terms of peak before injuries/etc. is he ahead of any of the following:

T-Mac
Grant Hill
Penny

My gut instinct is no.

I don't think so either and he really only had like a two year run as an elite player.

jayjay33

01-15-2016, 03:45 PM

I'd also put Brandon Roy on my list. I understand people won't think he played long enough. But I don't have a single doubt he's one of the best sg's I'v ever seen.

Brandon Roy is an interesting case. But if we're going in terms of peak before injuries/etc. is he ahead of any of the following:

T-Mac
Grant Hill
Penny

My gut instinct is no.

I'd definitely think he's was better than penny or hill. Better thenT-Mac? Close but probably not.

Also I have hill as a SF, and penny as a PG.

Chronz

01-15-2016, 05:48 PM

I'd definitely think he's was better than penny or hill. Better thenT-Mac? Close but probably not.

Also I have hill as a SF, and penny as a PG.
Not even close.

Gander13SM

01-15-2016, 07:59 PM

Iverson gets no love, even though he is probably the most skilled player to ever live.

Saying West is better than D Wade is like thinking Marciano will beat Tyson.

If I knew Iverson would play the game the right way, he's probably the best PG in history. Dude averaged 33/8 one year. He can get anywhere on the court he wants, more so than any PG in history, he just ball hogged yes, took bad shots yes, but was still pretty unstoppable considering all defenses he faced were geared to stop him and he would still just go right at them and score at 41%. He could do anything with a basketball, don't get it twisted, he just played the game the wrong way. But he was on a team full of bruce bowens. Yeah they d up, but man without Ivo that team would be scoring in the 70's on average.

...lmfao. I would love to see the argument for that.

lavell12

01-15-2016, 08:09 PM

I'd take Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

TheMightyHumph

01-15-2016, 08:19 PM

This is pretty much how i remember it. Iverson was a freaking BEAST. Just a head strong beast

With a very poor shooting Percentage, high turnover rate and little in defensive skills.

ESPN got #1 right. At the next slot, I'd take West over Kobe.

Bron > Kobe

01-15-2016, 08:20 PM

With a very poor shooting Percentage, high turnover rate and little in defensive skills.

ESPN got #1 right. At the next slot, I'd take West over Kobe.
Lmao. What?

basch152

01-16-2016, 05:14 AM

Lol, brandon Roy better than hill?

Did you not watch hill play? If he never got injured he'd likely be making an argument for top 3-5 SF.

IKnowHoops

01-16-2016, 07:50 AM

...lmfao. I would love to see the argument for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afQlPAIfVjc

There is my argument.

Gander13SM

01-16-2016, 12:01 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afQlPAIfVjc

There is my argument.

A highlight reel of crossovers? Really? That's your argument for him being the most skilled player ever in the history of the game?

Your username is ironic.

JLynn943

01-16-2016, 12:40 PM

Iverson belongs on this list if you consider him a SG, but I always thought of him more as a PG (and he played it a lot).

Leave it to a thread that brings up Iverson to bring out all the morons regurgitating the same narrative that's been spewed about Iverson again and again and completely ignore any and all context. We get it - you're incapable of critical thinking beyond very incomplete statistics. Good for you.

Gander13SM

01-16-2016, 01:33 PM

Iverson belongs on this list if you consider him a SG, but I always thought of him more as a PG (and he played it a lot).

Leave it to a thread that brings up Iverson to bring out all the morons regurgitating the same narrative that's been spewed about Iverson again and again and completely ignore any and all context. We get it - you're incapable of critical thinking beyond very incomplete statistics. Good for you.

Hope that wasn't directed at me.

I have no problem with Iverson. I just think calling him the most skilled player that's ever lived is a massive reach.

He wasn't even the most skilled player at his position during his own era.

TheMightyHumph

01-16-2016, 02:41 PM

Can someone explain to me why people try and say West is a SG when he only played the position for 2 years? Even people on here do it and I just don't understand it. http://s.coop/1xpjb http://financeisok.com/loan/images/17.gif

Because he was a shooting guard that drew much attention and was an excellent passer and defender (at the SG position)

basch152

01-16-2016, 02:50 PM

I completely stand by what i said.

Iverson was a low effiency volume scorer with average passing abilities and weak defense, and on a well rounded team he would do nothing to improve the other players and he would only hirt the team by taking shots from other players at a low effiency.

One of the greatest scorers ever. But as a complete player he wasn't a top 10 SG.

basch152

01-16-2016, 03:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afQlPAIfVjc

There is my argument.

Lol, i watched that whole video, and in 100 plays i counted about 70 travels and another dozen or so carries...

Hate to burst your bubble, but 3 steps = travel, and he takes 3 steps in almost every single play there.

valade16

01-16-2016, 05:24 PM

I completely stand by what i said.

Iverson was a low effiency volume scorer with average passing abilities and weak defense, and on a well rounded team he would do nothing to improve the other players and he would only hirt the team by taking shots from other players at a low effiency.

One of the greatest scorers ever. But as a complete player he wasn't a top 10 SG.

He was not an average passer, he was a good passer and he he was excellent at creating turnovers and getting into passing lanes.

As for him hurting the team, he went to Denver and they made the WCFs (something they hadn't done without him), so he didn't really hurt that team.

I mean if we're talking complete players Gervin, Allen, and Miller shouldn't be on there. All were more one dimensional than AI...

Chronz

01-16-2016, 06:32 PM

He was not an average passer, he was a good passer and he he was excellent at creating turnovers and getting into passing lanes.

As for him hurting the team, he went to Denver and they made the WCFs (something they hadn't done without him), so he didn't really hurt that team.

I mean if we're talking complete players Gervin, Allen, and Miller shouldn't be on there. All were more one dimensional than AI...

You gotta stop saying this, its as if you never notice my post informing you that he was actually 1 and done 2 years in a row in Denver, something they had done every year with Andre Miller.

I do think hes a good passer as well, anyone who can play the point in a pinch is at least a good passer. The problem with him, and George Karl(among others) would attest to this, is that he could stunt the teams ball movement with incessant pounding, its why I consider Chauncey to be a better distributor and therefore the better "passer". Still, its a testament to both of their off the ball game that they meshed so well but once the regular season was over, for some reason the duo could never click in the same game/series.

I remember Melo got locked down 3 years in a row come playoffs, he faced some great defenders (Q-Ross, Trenton Hassel and Bruce Bowen to name a few) and a few elite team defenses each year so its somewhat understandable. But his first playoff series with AI alongside him, was the one in which he finally solved the Bruce Bowen dilemma, he had his best playoff series to date, except that Iverson shot .368 from the field.
They swapped roles the following year against the Lakers twin towers set up that suffocated any teams post play. Iverson did what alot of PG's had been doing to the Lakers, having some of their best scoring nights. AI averaged a team high 24.5 but the Nuggets as a unit were simply too isolation heavy (AI averaged 4.5Assist, 3 Lakers averaged that much including 2 bigmen). Melo shot 38% and struggled with the trees backing up Luke Walton (his primary defender)

I have no problem with Iverson. I just think calling him the most skilled player that's ever lived is a massive reach.

He wasn't even the most skilled player at his position during his own era.

No, it wasn't at you. I've been through Iverson arguments with a few posters in here, and they have a near total inability to understand context.

ewing

01-16-2016, 09:20 PM

You gotta stop saying this, its as if you never notice my post informing you that he was actually 1 and done 2 years in a row in Denver, something they had done every year with Andre Miller.

I do think hes a good passer as well, anyone who can play the point in a pinch is at least a good passer. The problem with him, and George Karl(among others) would attest to this, is that he could stunt the teams ball movement with incessant pounding, its why I consider Chauncey to be a better distributor and therefore the better "passer". Still, its a testament to both of their off the ball game that they meshed so well but once the regular season was over, for some reason the duo could never click in the same game/series.

I remember Melo got locked down 3 years in a row come playoffs, he faced some great defenders (Q-Ross, Trenton Hassel and Bruce Bowen to name a few) and a few elite team defenses each year so its somewhat understandable. But his first playoff series with AI alongside him, was the one in which he finally solved the Bruce Bowen dilemma, he had his best playoff series to date, except that Iverson shot .368 from the field.
They swapped roles the following year against the Lakers twin towers set up that suffocated any teams post play. Iverson did what alot of PG's had been doing to the Lakers, having some of their best scoring nights. AI averaged a team high 24.5 but the Nuggets as a unit were simply too isolation heavy (AI averaged 4.5Assist, 3 Lakers averaged that much including 2 bigmen). Melo shot 38% and struggled with the trees backing up Luke Walton (his primary defender)

Billups is an very underrated dude. he was so good playing to his strengths.

basch152

01-16-2016, 09:23 PM

He was not an average passer, he was a good passer and he he was excellent at creating turnovers and getting into passing lanes.

As for him hurting the team, he went to Denver and they made the WCFs (something they hadn't done without him), so he didn't really hurt that team.

I mean if we're talking complete players Gervin, Allen, and Miller shouldn't be on there. All were more one dimensional than AI...

And that same team did better with a real PG in chauncey billups, meanwhile iverson in detroit completely crumbled the team.

Hey, I'll say it flat out. Iverson may be a better individual player, but chauncey is a better NBA player than iverson. Give me the good defender and team leader over the low efficiency volume scorer.

And yeah, what is this talk of the WCF? They did that twice with billups after the trade. Iverson never got them out of the first round.

Iverson =1-8 in playoffs

Billups = WCF

As for gervin miller and allen, they were all FAR more efficient than iverson, better defenders, and didn't give their team matchup nightmares because of their small size.

Hawkeye15

01-16-2016, 09:24 PM

Billups is an very underrated dude. he was so good playing to his strengths.

I still hate Terrell Brandon's body haha. The Wolves let Billups go, because Brandon was an excellent lead guard. Then he got hurt, and that was that...

Billups is going to be one of the more underrated players in history.

valade16

01-16-2016, 10:30 PM

And that same team did better with a real PG in chauncey billups, meanwhile iverson in detroit completely crumbled the team.

Hey, I'll say it flat out. Iverson may be a better individual player, but chauncey is a better NBA player than iverson. Give me the good defender and team leader over the low efficiency volume scorer.

And yeah, what is this talk of the WCF? They did that twice with billups after the trade. Iverson never got them out of the first round.

Iverson =1-8 in playoffs

Billups = WCF

As for gervin miller and allen, they were all FAR more efficient than iverson, better defenders, and didn't give their team matchup nightmares because of their small size.

First, I was dead wrong about the WCF and AI.

Second, you are dead wrong if you think those three were better defenders than AI.

ewing

01-16-2016, 10:40 PM

First, I was dead wrong about the WCF and AI.

Second, you are dead wrong if you think those three were better defenders than AI.

reggie miller could defend 3 spots and was a natural 2. AI is a 6 foot tall shooting guard. Reggie is clearly the better defender to build around at the 2. If you put Mark Jackson and AI in the backcourt together you get murdered

Iverson should not be on this list. And Jerry West shouldn't either. Although the same thing kind of happens with Duncan - Duncan is a center, but people want to put him down as a PF so it's easy to say he's the best ever.

Take those two guys off, insert Vince Carter and Manu Ginobili near the bottom. If anyone thinks McGrady is a shooting guard then replace Manu with T-Mac

Worst post ever. You know nothing about basketball. NOTHING!

TheMightyHumph

01-18-2016, 01:26 AM

Lmao. What?

Is there any reason I shouldn't believe West was better than Kobe?

Did you see West play?

Redrum187

01-18-2016, 05:07 AM

I'd definitely think he's was better than penny or hill. Better thenT-Mac? Close but probably not.

Also I have hill as a SF, and penny as a PG.

I was a Roy fan when he was healthy but come on. He didn't put up anything close to Grant Hill. 5 year prime, Hill smokes Roy by a large margin.