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The powerhouse of the team. This guy out in a sandstorm with choice and STAB Return is a wrecking ball. Superpower for steels that try to wall. Crunch for ghost types. Ice Fang for dragons and stuff like Gliscor.

My Revenge Killer, but often times i sweep 3-4 pokemon with him. standard set, shock for special walls that try to stop me over psychic plus OHKO terrakion. Focus blast for coverage. Shadow ball for ghosts and opposing psychic types. Hp for steels.

Trapper Heatran. Magma Storm, Toxic if necessary and then just wait out til their precious pokemon is dead. Protect has saved me a lot in tight situations. Plus when both storms are up plus toxic its pretty nice to do all that damage with none done to me. i also love trapping opponents blissey and chansey. They dont expect it, and toxic protect with storms up theyre dead in no time.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who read this! This team is performing well giveing me about a 4/5 win ratio. It's very consistent from the testing ive done aswell. What do you all think?

what? no. just stop. you obviously no nothing of our current metagame. generally, protect is a terrible move, as it just wastes a turn, allows the opponent a free switch, allows the opponent to set-up, etc. the last being the most dangerous, where with one boost, one of the 30-some pokes can get one boost and sweep a team. a key example is gyarados, who after one boost, sweeps entire teams. at least thunder wave is great support.

what? no. just stop. you obviously no nothing of our current metagame. generally, protect is a terrible move, as it just wastes a turn, allows the opponent a free switch, allows the opponent to set-up, etc. the last being the most dangerous, where with one boost, one of the 30-some pokes can get one boost and sweep a team. a key example is gyarados, who after one boost, sweeps entire teams. at least thunder wave is great support.

I guess you haven't used Ferrothorn. Leftovers recovery can mean the difference in a battle. Before criticizing others, back yourself up.

In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

I guess you haven't used Ferrothorn. Leftovers recovery can mean the difference in a battle. Before criticizing others, back yourself up.

you list one example of how it can be good, while i listed 3 examples of how it isnt good. yeah...i didnt back myself up....

protect is great in doubles, and also on stall teams. however, if you knew two shits about the metagame today, you would know that stall is pretty much dead in b/w2. stall sucks majorly. even semi-stall struggles. so many things counter it now, its not even f*cking funny.

you say how lefties recovery can mean the difference between a win or a loss. well, newsflash, that free switch you just gave the opponent, or the free rock polish/swords dance/etc, or even giving your prediction and play away can mean the difference as well. an extra 6% almost never matters, and will very rarely make the difference between a 2hko and a 3hko.

you tell me to back myself up, yet you are just digging yourself deeper into a hole filled with you babbling nonsense based on maybe 5 battles of playing comp. yeah, nice move there.

you list one example of how it can be good, while i listed 3 examples of how it isnt good. yeah...i didnt back myself up....

protect is great in doubles, and also on stall teams. however, if you knew two shits about the metagame today, you would know that stall is pretty much dead in b/w2. stall sucks majorly. even semi-stall struggles. so many things counter it now, its not even f*cking funny.

you say how lefties recovery can mean the difference between a win or a loss. well, newsflash, that free switch you just gave the opponent, or the free rock polish/swords dance/etc, or even giving your prediction and play away can mean the difference as well. an extra 6% almost never matters, and will very rarely make the difference between a 2hko and a 3hko.

you tell me to back myself up, yet you are just digging yourself deeper into a hole filled with you babbling nonsense based on maybe 5 battles of playing comp. yeah, nice move there.

Also, a quote:
"Protect is an appealing alternative over either move, as it is useful not only for scouting, but for racking up Leech Seed and Leftovers recovery as well."

While you resort to pathetic insults, he is going to get actual advice, instead of Theory-mon crap from you.

Last edited by azeem40; 15th November 2012 at 2:32 AM.

In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

Also, a quote:
"Protect is an appealing alternative over either move, as it is useful not only for scouting, but for racking up Leech Seed and Leftovers recovery as well."

that article was written back in the early days of b/w. when stallfests were slightly common, and when pulled off correctly by a good player, were almost unstoppable. nowadays, there are too many taunters and pokemon that are devastating with one boost under their belt, let alone 2.

like i said, protect is good on stall teams. i also stated how stall teams are not truly viable in todays meta anymore. if you cant understand that, then gtfo the rmt section. stall is dead.

While you resort to pathetic insults,

when did i ever solely insult you for the purpose of insulting you, without backing anything up?

he is going to get actual advice,

i am giving advice. saying, "dont use protect" is advice. but, since we're on that topic, "Its Landorus, not Tornadus" doesnt help him either, and in fact is just meaningless spam.

instead of Theory-mon crap from you.

umm...you are also theorymonning right now. js. actually learn what the action of said word means/is before using it. i'm doing my job to make sure he doesnt get bad advice. i apologize if it feels like im targeting you, but when you give **** advice like that without backing it up and making sure its ****ing viable, then you dont complain when you are contradicted. ok, so ferrothorn gets an extra 6%. personally, i would rather have a move that cripples over half the mons in ou, than a move that is complete set-up bait. but hey, if you want that, go ahead. just dont get butthurt when it doesnt work and you find yourself losing to +1 celebis, +2 genesects, +2 landorus, etc etc etc.

throughout this entire argument, you have failed to provide sufficient evidence and/or statements of why it is a good move on it. i have provided and restated multiple times 3 different scenarios.

1) easy set-up bait

a pokemon will see protect, and proceed to set-up. then you are faced with a +1, +2, or even +3 boosted powerhouse.

2) free switches

switching is a rare-ish commodity nowadays, as you are afraid of being ohkoed or outsped and 2hkoed or 3hkoed. with thunder wave, you cripple any possible switch-in who could devastate you, bar ground types and thunderus-t.

3) it shows your hand

this one is more complicated. basically, the opponent will protect and look at your move. then, they'll expect you to click that move again. a good player will capitalize on that and predict the switch. heres a scenario: Spoiler:- scenario:

Alright guys chill lol i could feel the tension reading it . I tested with protect on Thorn and found it underwhelming. It helped 2-3 times but most of the time i found myself want paralysis. So, I'll be stickin with Thunder Wave

I would agree T-Wave over Protect, but would disagree on the reasoning. Azeem is correct, the reasoning is purely theoretical and situational. Metagame shifts from region to region (geographical region not pokemon regions). Better is to say that T-Wave is good if you want support for your team and pick up an offensive momentum, and Protect for scouting and racking Seed and Lefties recovery. Saying Protect is a useless move vis-a-vis T-Wave is a great support is not absolute.

Leech Seed and Lefties recovery CAN mean a huge difference in battle.I'm not saying this as an absolute rule, but I'm saying that this is also situational. But in Ferrothorn's case with the listed moves above, it does. The moveset has Spikes in it, most advanced players would always encounter the option of making their pokes stay or switching out after a Leech Seed. If he decides to switch out for a different pokemon, then he can rack hazard damage unless it has levitate or a flying type. If he switches in with the latter, you can counter by switching ferrothorn out for another pokemon. The Leftover recovery can help in maintaining a defensive momentum for ferrothorn.

And please stop bashing people's opinions. It's not helping the thread maker in making his decisions. Give him options.

Alright, that will be done. Also, can Tyranitar be bulkier/last longer than Hippowdon with a certain set and EV's?

Hippowdon is a better physical wall than Tyranitar, while Tyranitar is a better special wall. Type matching wise, Hippowdon is better because it has less weaknesses than tyranitar and has access to an instant recovery while tyranitar has access to residual recovery with leftovers. If you are considering Tyranitar, go max HP and SpD EVs with a Careful or Sassy nature. I said it since you said that you have Ferrothorn as a physical wall. You can counter his weakness by switching out. Also with tyranitar you could up your offensive while maintaining your defensive position with Stealth Rock + Dragon Tail = Racking Hazards Damage and Phazing.

With Heatran, you could also go Trapper set by switching Lava Plume with Magma Storm. It may sound gimmicky but it works. Toxic + Magma Storm.

that article was written back in the early days of b/w. when stallfests were slightly common, and when pulled off correctly by a good player, were almost unstoppable. nowadays, there are too many taunters and pokemon that are devastating with one boost under their belt, let alone 2.

like i said, protect is good on stall teams. i also stated how stall teams are not truly viable in todays meta anymore. if you cant understand that, then gtfo the rmt section. stall is dead.

when did i ever solely insult you for the purpose of insulting you, without backing anything up?
i am giving advice. saying, "dont use protect" is advice. but, since we're on that topic, "Its Landorus, not Tornadus" doesnt help him either, and in fact is just meaningless spam.

umm...you are also theorymonning right now. js. actually learn what the action of said word means/is before using it. i'm doing my job to make sure he doesnt get bad advice. i apologize if it feels like im targeting you, but when you give **** advice like that without backing it up and making sure its ****ing viable, then you dont complain when you are contradicted. ok, so ferrothorn gets an extra 6%. personally, i would rather have a move that cripples over half the mons in ou, than a move that is complete set-up bait. but hey, if you want that, go ahead. just dont get butthurt when it doesnt work and you find yourself losing to +1 celebis, +2 genesects, +2 landorus, etc etc etc.

throughout this entire argument, you have failed to provide sufficient evidence and/or statements of why it is a good move on it. i have provided and restated multiple times 3 different scenarios.

1) easy set-up bait

a pokemon will see protect, and proceed to set-up. then you are faced with a +1, +2, or even +3 boosted powerhouse.

2) free switches

switching is a rare-ish commodity nowadays, as you are afraid of being ohkoed or outsped and 2hkoed or 3hkoed. with thunder wave, you cripple any possible switch-in who could devastate you, bar ground types and thunderus-t.

3) it shows your hand

this one is more complicated. basically, the opponent will protect and look at your move. then, they'll expect you to click that move again. a good player will capitalize on that and predict the switch. heres a scenario: Spoiler:- scenario:

Protect in singles is useless and annoying. it always gives you out thatv you want to predict it is good against choice users but.. how the hell you know it is a choice user? what would be better on the switch of a fire type? protect or thunder wave?

You are new in competitive so don't argue with darklord he knows what he is talking about.
Why you use starmie? while your team is barely hazard weak? if you want a wall use gastordon with the current set starmie is useless not hitting hard enough or taking hits. slowbro is also an option if you fear terrakion. on the same mind of protect drop protect on heatran and put hidden power ice in general I would use a more offensive heatran on this team.

Tyranitars' set is also upside down I don't see why you use each move just use the standard emboar or a scarftar. use pursuit to beat lati@s and espeon.

Last edited by Ilan; 16th November 2012 at 2:59 PM.

Originally Posted by Professor Oak

Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.

Protect in singles is useless and annoying. it always gives you out thatv you want to predict it is good against choice users but.. how the hell you know it is a choice user? what would be better on the switch of a fire type? protect or thunder wave?

You are new in competitive so don't argue with darklord he knows what he is talking about.
Why you use starmie? while your team is barely hazard weak? if you want a wall use gastordon with the current set starmie is useless not hitting hard enough or taking hits. slowbro is also an option if you fear terrakion. on the same mind of protect drop protect on heatran and put hidden power ice in general I would use a more offensive heatran on this team.

Tyranitars' set is also upside down I don't see why you use each move just use the standard emboar or a scarftar. use pursuit to beat lati@s and espeon.

I'm assuming your speaking to azeem in the first few sentences? And i explained why each move was there for Tar, what do you see wrong with it? And i updated the OP, i tried Slowbro, i lost about 5 in a row, then i tried several other pokes and lost some more, starmie wasnt that good but i went on a losing streak after dumpin him lol. I finally tried alakazam and loved it. I won 8 in a row before coming back to report results. hes perfect. usually when i bring him out he sweeps something terrible. Also, protect on heatran has won me a lot of tight situations. Using protect while toxic and magma storm and sandstorm are up and savin some damage to myself is just as useful as having an extra attack.

I'm assuming your speaking to azeem in the first few sentences? And i explained why each move was there for Tar, what do you see wrong with it? And i updated the OP, i tried Slowbro, i lost about 5 in a row, then i tried several other pokes and lost some more, starmie wasnt that good but i went on a losing streak after dumpin him lol. I finally tried alakazam and loved it. I won 8 in a row before coming back to report results. hes perfect. usually when i bring him out he sweeps something terrible. Also, protect on heatran has won me a lot of tight situations. Using protect while toxic and magma storm and sandstorm are up and savin some damage to myself is just as useful as having an extra attack.

Yes I was talking to him in the first 3 sentences, protect on ferrothorn is really useless only for a little leftovers and leech seed I wouldn't use that on heatran well it seems useful use what fits you.
alakazam is a good choice actually he is a really good pokemon.

5 lose strike? then can you please note which threats did the most so we can give you better rates and maybe suggests improvements to remedy it?

also use rock polish on landorus it will give you a faster pokemon since you said without starmie you entered a losing streak I guess you need a faster pokemon. also U-trun is kinda weak there is no real point to put U-turn outside of choice sets.

Also for the next time please put longer description especially on sets that are not standard.

Originally Posted by Professor Oak

Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.

Yes, I'll try harder in the future. As for the threats, just typical really powerful sweepers. Genesect, Rock polish or substitue terrakion. Landorus, etc. sub/spore breloom gave me trouble too. But, Alakazam conviently checks all of them. HP the genesect, psyshock terrakion and Breloom and he wont one shot landorus, but Stoutland handles him as long as he lives til Landorus comes out. Along with magic guard alakazam is really a perfect fit. I'm not having trouble with the team really anymore. That 8 win streak is now 15 . I don't seee the team gettin any better than it is, except for the tyranitar. What do you suggest i could do with him? I chose him over Hippowdon cuz as Luciola said, he is a better Special wall. I still wanna keep Stealth rock on him.

Yes, I'll try harder in the future. As for the threats, just typical really powerful sweepers. Genesect, Rock polish or substitue terrakion. Landorus, etc. sub/spore breloom gave me trouble too. But, Alakazam conviently checks all of them. HP the genesect, psyshock terrakion and Breloom and he wont one shot landorus, but Stoutland handles him as long as he lives til Landorus comes out. Along with magic guard alakazam is really a perfect fit. I'm not having trouble with the team really anymore. That 8 win streak is now 15 . I don't seee the team gettin any better than it is, except for the tyranitar. What do you suggest i could do with him? I chose him over Hippowdon cuz as Luciola said, he is a better Special wall. I still wanna keep Stealth rock on him.

Tyranitar is kinda weird I never really used him.. but I know the mixed set is really annoying something like: crunch/SR/ice beam/Fire Blast

with those EVs: 252 HP, 64 sp.A rest on sp.defense
sassy nature (I took the set from smogon) they do calcs and all so they probably know the best I would use the chople berry it is really useful.

Originally Posted by Professor Oak

Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.