I don't agree with you about VanGogh. His talent was recognised by his peers, while he was alive. That he did not sell more than one painting has more to do with his being a bad salesman than his lack of recognition.

Anyway, I now understand that there is no real way to determine who is a master and who is not. In other fields, the opinions of other experts matters. For instance, regardless of what my gut says, I know that Peter Salk is a great scientist, Andy Warhol is a great painter, and that Ravi Shankar is a great musician, and so on. Apparently it is not so in the field of MA.

my two cents. If they are charging a lot of money they aren't teaching they are doing business. 1. Is this all they do or do they have another job. 2. How long have they been doing this. 3. Do they claim to be a member of any associations, if so what ones, look up the association via the internet and make sure that they are indeed a member, in good standing. 4. Do they try to sell you into it, if so walk away. They should tell you the facts, not sell you a product. What style of aikido did you guys do that had forms, I did aikiki and we didn't have any?

I've been doing martial arts now for 12years and my first club was a rip off. Luckily I found a different club and an excellent instructor who will deny it but is definately a master. I enjoyed reading the posts on this thread but would suggest otobeawanker gets himself off to www.sowhatsystem.com where he would find the threads there more to his liking.

I have been a martial artist (Shotokan Karate) for 16 years now and I will say this about teaching and teaching methods.

Good martial arts teachers are very organized and knowledgable about the subject matter.

My Sensei is excellent not only because he teaches the traditional aspects of the art (kata, kumite, basics, etc), but he also teaches self-defense techniques that can (and have been) applied to street situations.

For those who believe that the traditional teaching is useless, I say that you do not understand training at all. Performing basics and kata teaches the body to move in certain patterns and repeated training sets these moves into the body as part of its innate reflexes. I am not advocating that you use kata and basics on the street (that would be stupid). However, the use of traditional training prepares the body by adding flexibility and conditioning. Performing kata also provides a means of focusing the mind and allowing outside distractions to melt away. The essence of training is discipline.

SO many vague generalities being thrown around its a wonder the orginal poster hasnt jumped out a window yet.

To address a few issues...

Skill in a fight; success in competition; trophies won; accolades collected. None of these things add up to a good teacher. They might be indicators of skill, but skill is one thing; the ability to effectivey teach is something else.

Here are a few pointers, though, that might help you find what you are looking for.

1) try a class or two. Any school worth its salt will allow you a few free classes, to see if you are a good fit. Give it a go and trust your instincts. Does the instructor teach in a way that you feel would be condusive to your style of learning? Is the content of the classes interesting?

2) Avoid schools that ask you to sign a contact for any length of time. Yes, this is a generalization, but these schools are more interested in your money than in your progress. There are better attitudes out there.

3) watch how the other students interact with the instructor. Is there an atmosphere of trust and mutual respect? Or is there an atmosphere of fear? Are the students expected to bow and scape and 'osu' at every comment the isntructor makes? Or does he seem to be open to discussion, and respect the student as much as they respect him?

4) how many higher ranks are there at the club? If there are LOTS of lower level and beginners, and not many higher level, advanced students, this teacher likely has a high turnover of students with a low retnetion rate. There is probably a reason for that.

5) call the local business authority (the better business bureau or a like entity). Ask about the school and see if there are any complaints about the school on the books.

6) This is the most important, in my mind. Know what you are looking for. Going into a martial arts school and wanting to learn martial arts is like going into a library and wanting to read a book. There are SO many out there to choose from - make sure you have an idea of the kind of martial art you want to learn.

7) trust yourself. If you find a school that looks bad, or even just feels bad, it probably is. If you are uncomfortable, there is a reason for it. Look around, and be open minded. Try what is out there, and hopefully you will get lucky and find a good school.