Friday, September 18, 2009

Eighteen.

I'm a better lay than I was a year ago. I've gotten practice, I've learned a few new tricks, I've gotten more comfortable with myself, and I've gained a little bit of emotional maturity that makes me less likely to do obnoxiously needy or inconsiderate things in bed. And I'm a much, much better lay than I was five years ago. When I turned eighteen, I only had two years of sexual experience under my belt, and that sporadic and with clueless boys; I couldn't give a blowjob to save my life and I tended to go into "augh I shouldn't be here doing this" spazz attacks after sex.

As for physical aging, twenty-three's been pretty kind to me. I'm not exactly haggard; if anything I'm in slightly better shape because physical labor has put some muscle tone on me. I've also learned to dress and present myself less awkwardly. About the only "oldness" on me is simple adulthood; you can tell I'm not a kid, but I'm waayyyy too young for any negative aging.

So why is eighteen often seen as the stereotypically "sexy" age? (Because seventeen is illegal, duh.) Is the freshness of a kid sexier than anything they can actually do in bed? Innocent, in this context, is just another word for inexperienced. And not just wide-eyed "gee no one made me feel like this before mister" inexperience--more often it's fumbling, tooth-scraping, unlubricated, orgasmless inexperience. Good luck with the relationship, too; everyone has a few totally dysfunctional obssessive/avoidant immature relationships in them, and most of us get them out when we're about eighteen.

Eighteen-year-olds were great when I was eighteen, but I've moved on, and I'd rather fuck men. And that's at twenty-three; by the time I'm in my thirties or forties I can't imagine wanting more of those jabby fingers and confused "does this mean we're in love or does it mean she's a slut?" emotions. Plus I'd kinda feel like a creep.

Then again, I suppose being a creep is the only appeal for adults lusting after eighteen-year-olds in the first place. But if they actually want one, either they've never fucked a real eighteen-year-old, or they'be never fucked a really good thirty-five-year-old.

I haven't actually had sex with a 17-year-old since I was 21, though; I'd much rather have a partner close to my own age, or older if she's more mature or better in bed rather than merely having ore years behind her.

Well, I think the appeal of eighteen-year olds, at least for a lot of men, comes down the fact that they're often physically stunning, so naturally they're desired, regardless of sexual performance abilities. I think the idea that the attraction is based on social roles, constructs, etc actually misses the point. Say all you want about people being equally beautiful at every age – that sounds all nice and politically correct and virtuous, but (can't speak for women in this regard), how many men really feel this way deep down in their libido? I suspect most men of any age, if given a no-strings-attached shot with a really nice-looking 18-year old (of whichever gender they prefer) would jump at it. Not that such opportunities often present themselves to men over 30, but lets not mistake lack of opportunity for virtue.

On a related topic, the fact that an older man with a younger woman is treated as a creep and an exploiter, while if you reverse the genders the lady is a "cougar" is such an enormous double standard. I say, unless there's pretty clear exploitation going on (and looking at simple age difference is not a shortcut to whether or not this is true), and two people seem happy, more power to them.

I've seen people brag that they've had active sex lives since they hit puberty. Some of those even say they were good at seducing adults while they were still underage. I don't know if that's actually true or most of them are exaggerating, but it is possible to be very experienced by age 18.

On the other hand, there also seem to be a lot of people these days who don't have much, if any, sex until their 30s or 40s. I didn't start until I was 31, and 3 years later I'm still in the "awkward teenager" phase.

Bruno - I'm not sure about the status symbol, really. There's a limit to where you can take an 18-year-old, because even a lot of good ol' boys will be giving you more concerned frowns than high-fives if you're walking around with a goddamn high schooler on your arm.

A. Man - I'm not talking about eighteen versus fifty, I'm talking about eighteen versus, say, twenty-five. A twenty-five-year-old woman is miles different from an eighteen-year-old emotionally, but physically, she's not exactly decrepit, is she?

On a related topic, I think cougars are freakin' creepy.

Not Me - Some young people are mature for their ages. Some people are not. Both groups will stridently tell you "I'm very mature for my age!"

It is interesting to note how much porn there is that's out there advertising "18 year-olds" or "teens" with women who are quite obviously MUCH older than that.

Despite the fact that chronologically the 17-21 year old crowd is close to 22-28 year old crowd, there tends to be huge gap in the amount of life experience and maturity that these groups tend to exhibit.

I'm going on my tenth year of college, and it's becoming very noticeable how young the freshman/sophmore level students appear to be now. Recently, I was at the gym, and a guy who looked like he still belonged in high school walked by with a shirt that said "Abstinence is Awesome!" Blew my mind. Of course, I probably looked ancient to him.

I think it's healthy to be involved with people who are at a similar emotional/mental level. I think a lot of people have quite a bit of growing up left to do at 18. I know I did.

I'm a 36 year old man who has, over the last 20 years, dated women ranging from 15 years younger than me to 10 years older. At age 25-35 there are certain benefits of dating an 18-20 year old woman.

Simplicity - They just want to date you. Flirting and dating are fun, but sometimes more mature women are prone to rushing, or even skipping, those parts of a relationship while in pursuit of marriage and/or children. Similarly, dating after age 25 or so is frequently an exercise in dealing with other people's baggage, and 19 year olds don't tend to come with crazy ex boyfriends, ex husbands, or children.

Ego - While a younger woman might not have much experience in bed, they very much appreciate their partner's experience. Like most men, my early sexual experiences were exactly the kind of inept fumbling you describe. Making out with or having sex with a younger woman gives one an opportunity to, in a sense, go back and do it right.

Sure, when a 30 year old woman tells me I'm good in bed, they're speaking from experience and are probably a more trustworthy source. But, when a 19 year old looks at me in bed and, with all honesty, says, "I had no idea sex could be. . .I mean. . .I never even thought I liked sex before! You've ruined me, I'm totally going to be a slut now!" well, I'm never going to forget it.

There's no reason a woman can't have the same experience. Find yourself a cute freshman, take him out on a few dates, totally blow his mind in bed, and leave him with a big grin and a great story. He'll have fun, you'll have fun, and you'll feel like a million bucks.

One thing I think you're overlooking is the 30 or 40 or 50year old mans desire to *be* 18 again, to have his whole life stretching out in front of him, to have the hope of beautiful non-bitter girls whole just adore you again. Hell, just to be that young and healthy. That kind of thing. Wasn't there a movie a few years ago, American Beauty, that talked about this?

I'm 34, and among my social circle, most of us don't date under age 25 or so. Younger folks are usually not mature enough to hold my attention. However, it's often easier to date younger. Younger folks are more likely to be available and less likely to be too wary to date people in open relationships.

I get the impression you're, ah, not a fan of evolutionary psychology, but I think it's pretty clear that our instincts at least in part push us to fertile partners who seem like they could bear lots of young. Human sexuality is obviously much more complicated than that, having both a reproductive and social bonding role, and most of us learn to desire things outside our instincts, but an undeniable part of the base programming is to seek out young, fertile mates. For men, that's young but pubescent women.

My real-world choice in partners is round about my own age (polyfaithful triad with a woman three years older than me and another four years younger), but I'm not ashamed to admit a visceral attraction to 16-17 year olds... Until they speak, and remind me what most humans are like at 16 and 17. ;)

Why are 18-year-olds sexy? Frankly, I don't think they are. Let's ask a different question: Why are younger partners sexy?

This I can answer. They represent a time when we ourselves were innocent and unknowing, eager for life, ready for new experiences, and ignorant (or uncaring) of potential dangers. They represent a time in our lives we wish we could reclaim, or perhaps re-live and change.

I think the post is missing the fact that within the last few decades people have started earlier and earlier. I can show and find you 19 y/o girls that suck dick just as well if not better than girls 5-10 years older, because they've simply been doing a lot of it for the last 5-6+ years already.

As for other facets, such as being able to "move properly" if on top / while active, I have found personality to be a LOT LOT LOT more influential than the age on the ID card(confidence, shyness, awkwardness are not tied as much to age as to character, although I guess there is a slight correlation if you're in a society that "slows you down" until you can manage to get away from the indoctrination more).

Also I have known a lot of girls with more insight at the age of 15 regarding life and various things than women twice their age.

I can only say - and this is me turning 30 and still shagging legally aged < 20 y/o - that as long as I can manage to get girls as young as possible, I will. (I've also had women in their early 20s, late 20s, early 30s, let's not paint me too monochrome here)

Their skin is never going to be the same as when they were 16-19, and even going to 25 you already have a jump in the difference. There's something to be said about the whole still-a-girl-going-on-woman phenomenon in terms of looks as well and I can't put it any more blunt than this:We are so used to our modern perspective about "child pornography" and "proper age for this and that" and our overall life expectancy being > 30 that we have forgotten that it used to be that people aged 50+ were a rarity once, that girls were married off at 14 years in western culture once as a normal thing, that the ancient greek were big time pedos and that generally lusting for the young and fresh is a completely different bag than just looking at the whole experienced-or-not consideration.

If you have ever watched Fight Club and were able to relate to the expression "I wanted to destroy something beautiful", then you may also be able to relate to "I wanted to **** something innocent", regardless of just how not-innocent he/she really still is. In some cases it's more a mind thing fascination, in some cases it's actually the mix of still-teenage-like creativity and livelyness that adulthood robs many of in character, the physical attributes, the wide eyed curiosity, etc pp..

There could be tons of reasons, and as pointed out above, there is no longer an all too applicable "young = inexperienced and bad at things" rule of thumb anymore. Some people are naturally good at what they do and fast learners, and some will just never get it right.

In short: give me an 18 or 19 year old for sex or sexually oriented relationships any day.

Hello! This is an old post, but as an honest-to-god 19-year-old who's going through archives, I would like to inform you that you have creeped me out! Congratulations!

I don't know why that stupid myth about how "in The Past, EVERYONE died at 30!" keeps going around. You seem to be forgetting that a high infant mortality rate gives you a low number when you calculate average life expectancy. Adults walking around has never been some kind of rare, mystical anomaly.

You ALSO seem to forget that a practice isn't right just because people in The Past did it. People in The Past (which is all homogenous, and never involves, like, DIFFERENT attitudes to anything!) didn't know what germs were, so there is no longer an all-too-applicable "let's treat diseases as if germs were causing them" rule of thumb.

I concede that there's a difference in life experience between a high school senior still at home and an enterprising 19-year-old who's had some experience navigating the world of "getting my own food, shelter, and transport," but seriously, any kid who's mature enough to handle a relationship with an established adult is a kid who's mature enough to know attraction based on wanting to "destroyfuck something innocent" is creepy.

Oh, and 16-19 is a diverse age group. 16-year-olds and I do not look the same age. They have round little faces with lots of zits under too much foundation and their bodies don't quite know how tall they're going to be yet and they're still growing into their boobs. At least I've had time to finish puberty and get used to my proportions.

AND ONE MORE THING: First, you assert that the minimum age at which sexual activity starts has gone down from an unspecified number to about 14 with time. You then state that the minimum age for marriage has gone up from about 14. You fail to acknowledge that teenaged boys as well as teenaged girls have engaged in sexual activity for about as long as we've had teenagers. You cite experience as a reason a girl my age might be a good partner, then contradict yourself again when you say "some will just never get it right." Proofread your shit, dude.

I gotta say, I am much more attractive- on a purely physical level- at 23 than i was at 18. Even removing every change that wasn't a purely physical between those five years, the fact of the matter is that at 18 I had severe acne, no boobs, uneven teeth, a slouch, and baby fat. At 23, I have no acne, straight teeth, boobs, enough muscle in my back to stand up straight, and have lost enough baby fat to go from "where's your mother little girl" to "If I hadn't met you here I'd say you were 14 years old" (two people actually told me this. At a freakin' munch, no less)

When people talk about wanting to fuck 18 year old girls, the 18 year old girls in their heads bear little resemblance to actual 18 year olds. At 18, we're still half-formed works in progress, both physically and mentally. We're still experimenting with who we are, and who we want people to see us as- and therefore still changing our appearance. And we're still on the tail end of puberty and all the subsequent physical changes that come with that.

You can't say that 18 is the peak of physical attractiveness for everyone, and therefore 18 years olds are best to fuck because 18 year olds are still growing/maturing. Most people I know are terribly embarrassed of how they looked in high school- peak attractiveness seems to top in most people's opinions of themselves in the early 20's. but again, in your circles, YMMV.

I can appreciate that you're not really attracted to teenagers, but I'm disappointed that you're not more tolerant toward those who are (and I agree with so much of everything else you write about here).

Maybe to some people, it's not that big a difference, but I think there's a huge difference between a girl who looks 25 and a girl who looks 18 (and I also recognize that there are girls who are 18 who LOOK 25, and there are also girls who are 25 who LOOK 18), and it just so happens that I am far more attracted to the teenager.

I've had sex with an older woman who was very experienced in bed and knew what she was doing and the sex was, physically speaking, fantastic. Yet I would still rather 'fumble around' with a legal teenager because that's my kink. It would get me off psychologically in a way that I can't with an older woman.

It's not because she's naive and easy to take advantage of. It's not even because she's more likely to be a virgin. I don't care how many people a girl's had sex with before me. Although there may be some element of attraction to the 'innocence' or freshness of youth, but it's because I think those qualities are appealing, it's not because I want to take advantage of them.

And perhaps most of all, my subjective opinion on beauty is that teenagers are a lot more attractive than older women. It's not something I've sussed out like a math problem, it's a revelation that hits me regularly when I see people on the street. It's not that older women are all ugly, but I just don't personally dig their look. Nor are all teenagers attractive to me. I know that not everyone 'peaks' physically at 18, but an attractive 18 year old captures me like an attractive 25 year old can't.

I'll even grant you leeway because there's a lot of talk about naive youngsters being taken advantage of by old-enough-to-know-better partners who end up looking like creeps in the best case, or in more tragic cases, are real criminals. I don't know what the percentage of people attracted to teens (or older people who have sexual relationships with teens - two different things) is, and maybe the majority are scumbags (although I don't see how that's significantly different than seeing that the majority of men in general are scumbags, because some of them treat women poorly and/or resort to raping them).

But I don't appreciate hearing the suggestion that the ONLY thing to see in teens sexually is how easy they can be manipulated and taken advantage of, and that that's the ONLY reason a person could be interested in teens, and that anyone who IS interested in teens is a creep.

I care about teens enough not to take advantage of them. And I care about myself enough not to break the law. But I don't believe any interaction I MIGHT have with a teen is going to be NECESSARILY abusive, and I don't feel that my attraction to teens itself is creepy, because being sexually attracted to someone doesn't mean you want to hurt them, it means they make your world a brighter place.

And, you know, if teens are having sex anyway, I don't see why having sex with an older partner (if that's their choice) is going to fuck things up, unless it's because other people are fucking things up for them because of that. Adults can be irresponsible, absolutely, but isn't it at least plausible that an adult could be as or more responsible in a sexual relationship with a teen than some of that teen's same-age peers (whom the teen might decide to - perfectly legally, and generally socially acceptably, if not by their parents - have sex with)?

I just see it as less an issue of age than an issue of the actual people involved, and their actual (rather than assumed) motivations. We've all got different tastes.

And I hope that maybe you'll consider my perspective, even if I may fall into a minority of cases.

I believe it's your kink. But just because it's a real, deeply felt kink doesn't make it ethical.

Adults can be irresponsible, absolutely, but isn't it at least plausible that an adult could be as or more responsible in a sexual relationship with a teen than some of that teen's same-age peersThat's the PROBLEM.

Being in a relationship with someone who is "the responsible one" while you're "just a kid" is a power imbalance. It's nice that they're trying to do right by you--but that's just another way of exercising power over you. It's still a matter of "I'm older and smarter so I know what's good for you." That's something kids should be hearing from parents and teachers, not from partners.

That's a really perplexing paradox there. But I think there's a difference between being responsible towards the person you're with, and wielding that responsibility like a privilege that entitles you to take advantage of the person you're with - which is actually irresponsible. I'm talking about real responsibility (not the superficial appearance of responsibility), where you treat the kid like a human being, and you don't use arguments like, "I'm older than you, I know what's good for you, so listen to what I say". I would never say that. In fact, I have a lot of experience saying "I know better than you" to a person who is significantly older than me, in the context of a relationship. Because I have the greater (relevant) experience to back up my opinions, and I don't view age as a status symbol.

Maybe it's inevitable that "kids" will view age as a status symbol. After all, that's what they're taught to do. Maybe they're not in a position to say to themselves, "he's my lover, he's an adult, but he's not my teacher or a parent or a doctor or anything like that, so he doesn't have any more authority over me than my classmates". But I think that's a sort of thing to be negotiated and communicated in a relationship like that. Plus I give teens a lot more credit to recognize the nuances of interpersonal dynamics (without being masters of it), and after all, teens defy authority on a regular basis. But ultimately, if I wield some authority that I DESERVE, on account of my experience - like knowing how to drive a car, or any other of a million possible examples - I don't see how that necessarily has to equate to, "you have to follow my rules always". Similarly, I would respect the teen's authority in terms of what they have more direct and immediate experience of, like their school environment, or the social rules at the modern equivalent of the roller disco (actually, I'm not THAT old).

And I would probably let them dominate me in bed, too, because that's also part of my kink.

Anyway, I actively avoid seeking relationships with teens BECAUSE of the ethical ambiguities, but I don't appreciate the majority of people making assumptions about WHY I'm attracted to teens, and what kind of a person that makes me. Who knows, if I actually had the opportunity to try it, I might come to the same conclusion as you in the long run. But in the mean time, all the shit talk I'm exposed to does a real bang-up job on my emotional health.