The Moz Blog

It's Only A Clique If You're Not In It

This post started as a reaction to accusations in the SEO industry that Top X lists, awards, etc. are only going to people's friends. As I was writing it over what ended up being 2 weeks, I realized just how broad this issue really is, from personal to professional to political. I hope you'll indulge me as I try to do justice to a topic that goes well beyond SEO.

We all know how it feels to be on the outside looking in. You start out feeling awkward and a little envious, but slowly it turns into something worse – depression, resentment, even rage. Eventually, we find a group to belong to, and the tables turn. No matter how often we were excluded (and maybe because of it), we eventually start to exclude others. It's a vicious, if all too human, cycle, and it extends to every corner of our social interactions.

My Friends Are The Best

Just ask them; I'm sure they'll agree. Do we prefer our friends? Do we give them the best opportunities and accolades? Absolutely. This is more than bias, though; it's the simple reality of relevance. If you ask me who the "best" expert is in some niche of my own field or what the best article is on Topic X, I'm going to immediately draw from what I already know. Stating the obvious, I can't recommend someone or something that I don't even know exists.

Of course, there are times when we have a responsibility to dig deeper and look for the best candidates outside of our own limited realm of experience. When I was a graduate student at the University of Iowa, I had the opportunity to be the first student in my department to serve on a faculty search committee. One aspect of that experience that stuck with me was Iowa's affirmative action policy. It wasn't about numbers and quotas so much as a core philosophy that we had a professional obligation to search far and wide for the best candidate. We had the duty to leave our comfortable world of people just like us and venture into the world of "them".

Confirmation Bias

Beyond simple relevance is something more powerful, and sometimes more insidious. We all have a natural tendency to take sides, and, once we do, to find reasons why our side is right and the other side is wrong. Psychologists call this "confirmation bias," the often unconscious need to find data that confirms what we already believe. If we like someone, we'll find reasons to support them and give them the benefit of the doubt. If we dislike someone, we'll find reasons to be suspicious of everything they say and do. If you think confirmation bias is something only other people have, you're fooling yourself.

Choosing Sides

Beyond our friends, confirmation bias quickly begins to apply to all of our cliques and teams. If you're a sports fan, then that team mentality is usually just harmless fun – associating with your team provides a shared emotional experience. I'm a Cubs fan – believe me when I say that I understand the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, although not in quite the ratio I'd like. What happens, though, when that team mentality starts to apply to things like politics, as we've seen far too often over the past couple of decades (on both sides of the fence)? Suddenly, our clique is 50% of the population, and our enemies are the other 50%. At best, it's divisive. At worst, it breeds hate, violence, and bigotry.

Where Do We Go From Here?

Of course, we all like to think that we're free from bias, but the power of bias is that the flaws that are obvious in others are often hidden and unconscious in ourselves. If I mention that I do SEO, do you picture a savvy internet guru or spam-spewing snake-oil salesman? If you're an SEO, and you hear that I work with SEOmoz, do you think I'm a paragon of white-hat virtue or part of Rand's evil conspiracy to take over the industry? Reality is probably somewhere in between. If I tell you that I voted for Obama, do you see a beacon of liberal hope or a Communist bent on destroying our nation? I can assure you that I am neither. So, how do we get past these labels and start to understand people, whether personally or professionally?

Get to Know People

Social media has given us a difficult dichotomy. On the one hand, it's never been easier to "friend" people in shallow and meaningless ways. On the other hand, we have the tools to get to know our peers and friends of friends in ways that were never before possible. The next time you friend someone, take a moment and find out something about them. Where are they from? What do they do? What kind of music do they like? Do they blog? If they do, read a post. If you see a label ("liberal", "conservative", "Twilight fan"), don't jump to conclusions. Give that person a chance to speak for themselves.

Play In a Different Park

It's easy to be self-righteous when you're surrounded by your fan-boys and girls. It's easy to get a standing ovation at your campaign rally when you only invite the people who gave you the most money. If you want perspective, you have to give up the home-field advantage. If you disagree with someone, comment on their post instead of running back home to write a rant. Try guest-blogging – even better, guest-blog in a different industry. Try to explain why SEO is worthwhile to an audience of small business owners, designers or UX professionals. It'll be a tough sell, but you'll learn a lot in the process.

When In Doubt, Ask

Social media is a mine field of misunderstanding – if you're not sure what someone means in that 140-character Tweet, ask them. If they write a blog post that seems like a personal attack, call them. It's not just about being nice – bad blood runs deep, and today's simple misunderstanding could destroy relationships and opportunities tomorrow.

Open Your Circle

We all remember the people who excluded us, and we too often hold that fact against the universe. Let it go. When you finally get into that circle, especially your professional circle, try to remember that someone else is still outside looking in. Here are a few ways to give someone else a chance, because we can all use a little good karma:

Promote other people's links and awards, even the competition.

If you're at a conference talking to a group and you see someone standing outside the circle with that awkward look of faux participation, invite them in.

Make an introduction to help someone's career along.

If someone is new to blogging, comment, subscribe, or even link to them.

When someone challenges you publicly, listen and think before you counterattack.

Don't envy other people's success – learn from it and improve.

Every once in a while, shut up and listen.

At the end of the day, those of us who have attained some measure of success need to remember that we all had a little help along the way. Try to return the favor once in a while.

129 Comments

It's no secret that I've begun to rather dislike the social networking aspects of SEO, hence the deleted Twitter account and removal of any non-real-life-friends from Facebook. And a big drop in how much I write in public. A friend argued to me recently that it's done me no favours: Whereas I used to appear on these amazingly boring lists of who's who, I don't anymore. Ironically, I'm many times more competent at what I do than I was eighteen months ago, when my name would make it onto several of them. Hilarious! The only reason anyone took notice of me was because I was a loudmouth!

I rest assured that the people who need to know what I'm capable of, do, as does my resume. Life's also a lot more peaceful.

Most of the time, people get attention for what they say, not what they do. Show up at any affiliate conference and see how many people you don't know. They're the successful ones: the ones who've been at home in their underpants, making miwwions, while the SEO kids wrote blog posts about each other.

I completely agree about the bias we hold towards others. I don't want to believe that people I distrust are capable of excellence, or even capable of not being awful people, even though I know they are. And they often prove it. Every once in a while, shut up and listen. Check.

Re making new friends at conferences--I find the following enjoyable:

The first time I allowed myself to venture outside the supposedly acceptable group at a conference (Pubcon 07), I met the people who would become my coworkers by 2010, as well as close SEOmoz friends and colleagues. The professional benefits were profound. Additionally, some of them became best friends as well. And all the while, I was accused of "not networking properly", when I was making connections with "strangers" that greatly benefitted both me and my then-employer. Multiple times, especially over the past year, I've looked at an impressive professional situation regarding either SEOmoz or Ayima (where I work now) and I've thought "all this because I spent hours in the Parasol Up bar at the Wynn one week in December 2007 with people I didn't know."

Re bad blood from non-communication: my experience is that the only good way to communicate a potentially heated misunderstanding or disagreement is in private. See link below.

Seems that comments and tweets (especially tweets) are just fuel for a snarky public fire we've created. We're so rude to each other! I backed away from the public side of the SEO industry because I was tired of people being rude. Explained better here.

It's a difficult balance. People who know me are amazed that I can self-promote - it doesn't come naturally. As an entrepreneur, though, it's a necessity. It's not about ego, but the simple fact that no one is going to do business with me if they've never heard of me and have no idea what I do. Word of mouth is useless if you don't have access to any mouths.

When it comes to social media, I think that all you can is try to play by your own rules. We all play roles, and our persona on any site is never going to be exactly the same as how we are in person, but we can try to be genuine. I sincerely like people and enjoy getting to know them, so I try to tap into that. I love in-jokes and try to learn what makes people laugh and cheers them up. It makes networking fun for me, and hopefully, more personal.

I have to agree completely with Jane on this one. I've actually been involved in Internet Marketing and specifically SEO since 2002.

I've worked in some of the most competitive niches including sports betting, casino, poker, dating, stock photos and more. I've done technical SEO on dynamic sites that get upwards of 1M uniques per day.

With a background in software development I like to think I'm fairly competent however from day one I made sure I would not get involved in the snarky and, to be blunt, immature internal world of SEO.

Unlike most industries this is one of the worst for flame wars that frankly denegrate the reputation of the entire SEO industry.

Look around, you don't see software developers, traditional marketers swearing at each other, name calling and posturing.

Small wonder we're looked upon negatively.

One of the areas I specifically and intentionally avoid is the conference circuit. There are many ways to keep up on the industry and still allow you to avoid these scenarios.

Frankly the "Conference SEO" crowd is generally busy patting each other on the back for the sake of promotion and new client generation.

I let my experience and results speak for themselves, I have no need or desire to participate.

Look around, you don't see software developers, traditional marketers swearing at each other, name calling and posturing.

I can't say that matches my own experience. I honestly think we treat the SEO industry as much more unique than it really is. I've been in academia and worked in technical fields, and there is posturing, politics, and immaturity everywhere. I even have family in the ministry, and am surprised how petty church politics can become. Developers and designers fight all the time, and the comments on Engadget and Wired look like a 3rd-grade class got out early. This is behavior that I see across many industries, and that we all have to work harder at.

I'd also sincerely encourage you not to write off the conference circuit. Yes, it can be cliquey and there are some people there only to self-promote, but having direct access to other experts can be an amazing learning opportunity, especially when you can corner a search-engine rep or a specialist and ask some hard questions. You'll get admissions out of people one-on-one that they'd never post in a public forum.

I have to agree with Pete on this one actually. I was a web developer for 10 years and believe me developers can be really harsh to one another. There are those devs who think they're better than others and no one could ever write a bit of code as perfect as they could. It can be exausting.

I think one thing that makes our industry seem so dramatic is that a lot of the cliquiness occurs in very public forums. Twitter, Facebook, Sphinn, forums and blog comments are all normal places to find people moving into those cliques. As it was stated above, it's also easier to be mean or judgemental online. Half of this stuff probably wouldn't happen in person.

I also agree that conferences are a great way to learn! Perhaps going to a huge conference isn't for you, but there are plenty of small conferences or training that can be great as well. And as Pete said, sometimes you can catch someone's time and get a specific question answered, that would never happen otherwise.

The first conference I went to, I was talking with Matt Cutts at the SEOmoz event (long before I worked here) and I had no idea who he was. Some guys came up and asked for a picture with him, and I thought "omg, am I supposed to know who this guy is???" I felt a little silly, but also realized Matt's a real person who likes to meet people and have conversations just like the rest of us.

When it comes to developers, I spent some time with a Ruby on Rails shop. Those guys were genuises and incredibly open within in the community, but to Pete and Jennita's points there were still just as many egos in the room.

I think the difference might come in transparency. In SEO we tend to be very protective our methods, clients and tools. I was not in the beginning and certain experiences taught me to be cautious to a point of paranoia. In the development community, at least ROR, you need the community to advance a language, platform or app. When we lose that comradery it makes the negatives feel stronger than they really are.

Rhea, I hadn't thought of it that way! But you're right. I remember a post recently where I gave 4 sites that gave unfollowed links and got bombarded with comments from people who were upset that I let the cat out of the bag.

Good points made all around. My software development work was heavily in Open Source including the Linux Core, The Mono Project and also in academia (visualization) - it was a small tight knit group and there was little to no posturing and flaming.

If you thought someone was wrong then it weas debated as opposed to turning into a schoolyard fight.

As for the conferences I do tend to write of SES, SMX and the major ones. I have spoken at a number of niche conferences and have considered attending somewhat smaller ones.

Trust me though if anyone gets up on a stage wearing a lab coat or gets into a whitehat versus blackhat SEO l33t conversation then you can be sure I'm not going to attend. That's just my personal choice, I'm not into the showmanship PT Barnum circuit.

@Rhea there are some angry monkeys out there and without naming names I just don't think swearing, putting others down, talking about how many shots and drinks you can have in a night is relevant in any way to someone's performance in SEO. You could probably name about 10 SEOs who are guilty of this and I frankly have no time for them :)

I have got to say: on the one hand, you make a point. There is really no need for the amount of flaming that goes on web wide and very little benefit to put down others within your industry. That said, defining SEO is a rather difficult task and it is not without some justification that some people within the industry would like to distance themselves from more spammy and nefarious techniques.

Further to your point on the SEO industry being the worst for flame wars and maturity issues, I don't actually believe this to be the case. I have met a number of great people in the SEO world (in the short time I have spent in the industry) and I think ultimately, it just comes down to the extremely public (and permanent) nature of what we as SEOs do that it seems so pronounced to you.

Think of it this way: having worked in a number of industries (design, International Development, specialty food, etc.) I can tell you outright that there are some bad apples in all lines of work. I have heard people say things about their competition (and even people with whom they claim to hold strong friendships) that are beyond offensive and often unfounded. The problem is, because we SEOs spend the vast majority of our time online and develop strong and open relationships online, a lot of the things that people say about others are in writing, and (often) are indexed for all to see in the future.

In a way, I think this is good, because one misplaced insult can be quite costly in this industry... it is out there for all to see.

I was heavily involved in the conference scene (attended a couple this past year too, but on a far more toned-down level). Indeed, it did me many favours, many of which I didn't deserve until later in my career.

Yours isn't the popular view on this thread, but after watching the popular conference circuit crew in the United States (I live in England now, but was a Seattleite until January 2009) turn sour, turn on each other and generally turn nasty, I relate more to yours and wtfseo's points of view.

I work in some of the niches you've worked in, and some others too. Is a different world to the one where writing a blog post about Twitter makes a splash. We can't, even if we wanted to, write publicly about the things we're into now. Our competitive advantage would evaporate and our clients would probably have serious legal recourse against us. We can make generlisations and nameless examples, and sometimes we're lucky enough to have a public client, but they're rarely the really impressive ones.

It's wonderful! I love these sites and markets. I used to be a competitive swimmer, and dealing with finance or gambling is like walking into the Sydney Aquatic Centre for a competition. Nowhere to hide: time to deliver.

People who quietly practice SEO on a daily basis in offices across the world far outnumber the small percentage who "come across like uber bitches in (their) public personas". Why is that necessary? It's not impressive. It creates a negative environment in which no one's professional life gets any better, and it results in most of us just looking really childish and silly.

Since it's an echo chamber, the loud ones only ever hear the praise from their loud peers. I am glad not everyone is as impressed with the noise.

As soon as you said "those of us" and "you guys", I fear that you've missed the point of what I'm trying to say. Think about the picture you're painting, and allow me to exaggerate it, just for effect. You and your friends studiously pursue the art and science of SEO, heads in your desks in concentration as you heroically do the best work you can for your clients. Me and my friends revel in our incestuous social circles, handing out fake awards and laughing at the poor suckers who we don't deem worthy of our favor.

Do you really think that? These forces influence all of us, and if we don't acknowledge them, we'll inevitably be victims to them.

Do I think that I'm up for 2 SEMMYs because the organizers and judges know me and my work? Of course. I don't claim for a moment that my work represents 50% of the best articles in usability last year. I don't even claim that it represents 50% of the best work in usability done by a search marketer. I will stand behind at least on of my posts as possibly the best piece I've ever written, but that doesn't make me better than anyone. At the end of the day, if I win, most of my clients and friends won't care. The majority of them don't even know what search marketing is, let alone a SEMMY.

On the other hand, I respect the work that Matt, David, and the judges are trying to do. They've put in 100X more effort than most of us do when we write any given Top 10 or Top 100 list (which, let's face it, is usually a Who's Who of our own friends). Are they perfect or immune to criticism? No, and you have every right to debate the merits of the award. Why not participate, though? Ask to be a judge, offer up articles you think deserve to be nominated. It's easy to attack something - it's a lot harder to do it better.

I do participate Pete. I've done SEO for small time shops, and I've done SEO for several fortune 100 clients. I've made a living in agencies, in small shops, and by promoting my own sites.

I've been to conferences, featured on industry blogs, blah blah blah. None of that really matters.

What I'm seeing in the SEO industry is a distinct 2 groups of people. There's those who actually do SEO and make money from it, and there's those who make their money talking about SEO and pandering to the SEO clique.

Many of the SEMMY / Sphinn / Conference crowd realized long ago that they have a better future in networking than in doing SEO. These people have lost touch with their "trade." Many of them would be lost without their connections.

Don't believe me? Challenge Rand, or Jill Whalen, anybody from outspoken media, or somebody to create a brand new Twitter account and blog under an alias - and don't tell anybody at all who they actually are.

I'm willing to bet that nobody sees or hears of any of their blog posts, they won't get tons of twitter followers, and nobody will know or care who they are. They'd be invisible because the content they produce is nothing more than virtual handjobs for their friends.

As a scientist, the trend toward making somebody an authority bsaed on who they know rather than the quality of their work disturbs me.

Sure, some people like danny sullivan and aaron wall do put in hard hours and have high journalistic integrity. But as for many others, they don't produce any original research or insights. Most of Y'all simply parrot each other and pander to your friends.

I think that's a gross and far too convenient oversimplification. Most of us were nobodies at one time. I'm hardly a natural marketer. I'm an academic who went to work for a start-up because I was passionate about what was happening on the internet. As the first employee of that start-up, I realized that I had to sell, and that meant getting to know my clients and putting myself out there. I grew that company, did the best I could for clients, learned a ton, and tried to take care of my employees. I won't claim I did any of that perfectly. When the time came, I left and started over.

I really wanted to get back to my academic roots (I have a Ph.D. in Cognitive Psychology) and naturally fell into usability, but a client encouraged me to attend an SEO conference (SES Chicago 2006), and I was amazed at how much search marketing had changed and how complex and interesting it had become. I found SEOmoz soon after and with it a community that I sincerely enjoyed being a part of. As an entrepreneur, I struggled to put that to work, building up a following, getting to know people, and getting my work known. I got to know many of the people you so easily dismiss, and I have a lot of respect for some of them, including Rand, who has shown me nothing but generosity and who is twice the leader I was at my old company, even though I've got 10 years on him.

I'm a scientist, too, and I find cynicism far too easy. In the Western world, we think that cynicism and "realism" are a sign of intellectual superiority, but I think they're too often an excuse to hide behind our own preconceptions. Curiosity is the real mark of an intellectual, and curious people try to learn from each other, an inherently social activity.

If you want to become known in the SEO world, you've got to do more than just BE an effective SEO. Somehow people have to hear about you. Like many industries, the old "build a better mousetrap" saying is a pile o' crap in SEO-land.

I spent many years getting my travel sites to rank against (and often better than) the big brands, yet I wasn't known--except to a handful of folks at those travel companies, who were spending a lot of money elsewhere and getting embarassed in front of their bosses :-D

I found all I had to do to start getting a little recognition was to (a) show up at conferences, (b) come out of my "shell" and introduce myself a bunch of times, (c) actually follow up after with the occasional question, idea, or tip, for the people I'd met, and guess what...the links started to come my way, invitations to speak on panels & join my city's search marketing board, and (even better) invitations to knock off work early and have a beer on a sunny day and talk about various search projects. Rand even tried to hire me (but it rains even more in Seattle than here in Portland).

People do business with people they like. If you want to build yourself a "brand" in SEO, you're going to have to reach out to people, make some new friends, and then put in a little effort and contribute something useful. It takes work, but I sure found that virtually everyone was welcoming and helpful. It's an industry where nobody's been born into fame or success, and we've all had to work to get where we are, so people tend to reach out and help others as they themselves were in the same boat not very long ago.

Just to clarify, I'm not jealous or crying because I'm not part of the "in" crowd. I don't want to be part of the in crowd. I'm happy doing work and getting paid - knowing that I can support myself with a keyboard and mouse.

Maybe it stems from the fact that I don't need to sell myself or my services to anybody.

As for contributing something useful, I feel it my mission to bring the "clique" back down to earth before they inflate each other's heads to the point of explosion.

End of the day, we'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I think we all have to sell ourselves and our services to some extent. I don't think that's the same as selling out. To get paid, someone has to know your work and trust you, and that connection usually comes from a relationship.

It's not that people either (a) see your work, or (b) hear about your from their friends - the two are interconnected. Many of my clients have both heard of me through industry circles and seen my work - they wouldn't trust me to do what I do without both. I would argue that some of them see the social connection as critical - not because they want to be in my clique, but because they want to know that I, as a one-man shop, have access to other experts. This is a fast-moving field, and we all need support and avenues for learning. That's what a network is, IMO.

Don't believe me? Challenge Rand, or Jill Whalen, anybody from outspoken media, or somebody to create a brand new Twitter account and blog under an alias - and don't tell anybody at all who they actually are. I'm willing to bet that nobody sees or hears of any of their blog posts, they won't get tons of twitter followers, and nobody will know or care who they are. They'd be invisible because the content they produce is nothing more than virtual handjobs for their friends.

Ok, you got someone from Outspoken Media. Probably not the someone you were expecting.

What you're asking us to prove to you is something we do every day for our clients. We don't talk about it, because contrary to popular belief, we aren't egomaniacs when it comes to our clients. We want them to become known in their industry for the quality of their work, not ours. We make our clients shine and we don't give a shit about getting a pat on the back for that. We just want to get paid and we do.

Paisely mentioned wanting a 100% client retention rate. Guess what? We've got that. We don't brag about it, but yeah, we're pretty damn proud of it. So, feel free to say whatever you want about us because at the end of the day we keep our clients happy and we remain true to ourselves. Sometimes that means we come across like uber bitches in our public personas and yes, it has lost us potential clients, but it also means we attract no-nonsense clients that make our jobs look easy because we're on the same page. At the end of the day, we'd rather have a great client relationship and results, so we choose to be us.

In this industry, there's more than enough work to go around. We refer clients out daily to companies and consultants we trust. You don't have to be part of the cool crowd to get a referral or a blog mention, just don't be a dick and do solid work.

Bottom line, we're all here to make money and kick ass at what we do. It doesn't matter what list you're on or not on. Every accolade should be taken with a grain of salt. And in all seriousness, does anyone really think clients are so naive that they're going to choose an Internet marketing company based on their awards? If they are, I can tell you with certainty that client isn't one of ours.

What I'm seeing in the SEO industry is a distinct 2 groups of people. There's those who actually do SEO and make money from it, and there's those who make their money talking about SEO and pandering to the SEO clique.

I think the problem that no one wants to talk about is credibility... "We won this award" "We won made this list" if that award or that list is based on Merit.. it's an awesome thing.... but if it's based on popularity or threatening someone unless you are included.... then it's false... enter the seo snake oil... "we are good because we won this award, look we are listed on THIS list.. ", sure clients won't know that it was kind of a "back-door" thing, but who cares as long as the person with the "award" or "list badge" gets the business it's all fair... right? who cares if it's deceptive..

I've been an ADDY judge on local, regional and national levels, i've judge the WebAward, and several others.. etc.. standard procedure is...

"Please declare any URLs that you may have been involved in or know someone involved with a URL so that we can remove that URL from your judging dashboard"

I was nobody's friend when I started at SEOmoz and in the industry. I had no problems making my way up the list. I just didn't worry about what people would think and made sure to ask lots of questions. I also made a lot of new friends by becoming a part of this "Clique".

Whilst I don't think there is anything ground-breaking here (a summary could read: People can be mean, especially on the Internet. Let's be less mean), it was quite an unexpected yet interesting post.

I think there is an element of people needing to be a little bit more thick-skinned and not be hyper-senstivie to things people say, particularily strangers leaving comments on the Internet. I mean, have you ever read any YouTube Video comments?

Both in terms of harsh comments, and reactions to them as well as social-exclusion it just comes down to low self-esteem and fragile self confidence in all cases. It just manefests itself in different ways. Humans are inheriently vulnerable we just deal with it differently.

In my experience (two and a half years in SEO related jobs) this industry is more susceptable to such problems due to the young nature of the industry and the propensity to attract people who, ironically, do not know how to communicate approriately (by which I mean with dignity). It is up to those who can to educate in matters wider than pure SEO in this instance (so, thanks to DrPete for the post)

I'd say you can read more on my thoughts in my blog, but I don't and have never, have one. Or you could speak to me at a conference... but I wouldn't go to one if you paid me. :)

I suppose one clarification I should make about my observation was that it's never been the YouTube-esque random stranger's comments and nastiness that tired me out: it was people I, and many of us, know. I'm not particularly thick skinned, especially when the comments get personal!

Lovely irony that people in this communication-centric industry fail miserably at communicating in a dignified manner. I've been guilty of that too (some of the things I thought and said and giggled about three years ago are embarrassing), but have changed that too. It's called growing up.

First of all, cool post. Not expected, but really good. While reading through the article I was already sure to be able to add a reasonable comment. But honestly, this comment here covers it all. Perfect!

Just a little side note: Some weeks ago during #followfriday (or SEOs recommend SEOs day) on twitter I became a little upset since it's always the same. Everyweek the same buddies keep recommending themselves. Great value! ;-) anyway...I simply sent a tweet like this "man, this #ff is becoming quite incestuous #seo" - and within minutes seo guys from everywhere started yelling at me and kept sending me tweets like "don't mess with us" and all that stuff. Like little schoolboys. But that might be, to come back to the great comment, due to the young nature of the industry.

I completely agree that we all need thicker skin at times, especially with critics and customers. It's no secret that our industry is full of hot-shots and wannabes, and you can waste your whole day worrying about what they think.

On the flip side, I have seen fellow bloggers viciously attacked in a way that we would never tolerate in person. Globalization, ease of communication and anonymity are privileges, and we all need to wield them more responsibility.

I have seen fellow bloggers viciously attacked in a way that we would never tolerate in person. Globalization, ease of communication and anonymity are privileges, and we all need to wield them more responsibility.

Damn, I can't make it all the way down the post either, another great quote. I have felt that 90% of the mean comments or attacks someone says on the Internet would not be repeated or said to that person if they were actually standing in front of you.

I have seen this greatly in fascilitating a blog and youtube video dedicated to honoring Military Veterans of our Country (Politics aside they are doing a job, doing it well and not complaining about it). The comments we get bashing our soldiers on the Internet are deplorable. If you said these mean spirited things in person to an actual soldier he/she would anihilate you!

Not to open a can of worms, but that's a great example. I'm generally liberal and have many issues with the way we conduct war and especially the way we've industrialized it. On the other hand, my father was in the Navy, my grandfather was in the Marine Corps (in the Pacific in WWII), and I have nothing but respect for well-meaning soldiers who put themselves in harms way for what they believe in. Why can't we have these discussions without falling back on stereotypes? Why must I either be pro-military or hate the troops? These are important issues worthy of mature discussion, and we're losing that ability every day, it seems.

Boy Do I wis that was the case too, I know soldiers who are Democrats & Republicans but they are to NOT talk about these affiliations they may have, just as the military website I work with DOES NOT take political sides because if you look at how the soldiers oath starts out...it's all about obeying orders and doing your job, which maintains structure.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Once in a while I hear someone complaining about how they haven't gotten what they "deserved" - and someone else, with less skill who just did a better job schmoozing, won the award.

The thing is, you can't just "do good work" and expect that to be enough. Most of us are marketers, marketing ourselves and our services.

Why do any of us write blog posts? For our mental health, so those posts can exist in a void?

No, we write them so they'll be read, to educate - to quote Seth Godin's Linchpin, as a "gift" to those who read it.

And yes, we're hoping that, maybe, if we keep at it long enough and add value when/where we can, we'll be able to do more of it, to stay fed and continue doing our work.

What's not unique to this industry is that there are others along the way who will help you. They'll talk with you, give you advice - invite you into the group discussion. And sometimes friendships form. Friendships of mutual respect - an admiration for each other's patterns of thought and insight and a recognition of shared experience.

I'm as guilty as anybody for sometimes falling into the trap - into the pattern of thinking that awards like the SEMMYs are all a bunch of bull crap, a bunch of people patting each other on the back because it's one step away from patting themselves on the back, which just looks lame. That's mostly angst - a frustration with not being up on the stage.

But if you're friendly, open to discussion and bring your own insight to the table with genuine engagement, people will appreciate it. If you do it on a consistent basis, you might find you've made a few friends and colleagues.

And if those people decide to use a platform they've built to showcase your work to a wider audience, what's so bad about that?

I run a pretty large local-oriented car forum and see these types of dynamics play out constantly. The clique dynamics of forums create a lot of churn in new members. Members join, try to make a quick name for themselves and then run into a frustrating spell of inside jokes and stories for which they aren't really supposed to participate in. They want to be known but it takes more time then they have patience.

The forum staff is all people that I know personally and trust. This sort of relationship can almost only come from face-to-face interactions (for me anyways) which comes rare in blogging or social networking. For a long time we have been criticized for hanging out in a tight circle both online and in real life. But in reality it has to do with the comfortableness of hanging out with people you are familiar with. We encourage others to break into our group at meets and events, but most people are shy in these situations. This often results in the person not feeling accepted online or at meets and soon they give up and move to the next group of people.

The staff tries to not choose sides when moderating content on the forum, but you cant help but factor in the seniority of the member you might be moderating or the encounters you have had with them in the past.

Now, I am playing in a totally new circle here at seomoz. I am a straight nOOb here! I look forward to meeting you all and learning from your experiences. I think you all have a great thing going here.

Welcome, Brandon. I know exactly what you mean - we're sometimes accused of having a clique here, and it's hard to separate the natural forces that bring people together from the ones that exclude people. I know for a fact that people occasionally land here on SEOmoz, see the cross-talk between people who know each other, feel left out, and go somewhere else. I sincerely believe that we do our best to welcome newcomers, but we're also human and make mistakes.

On the other hand, if we don't build relationships, get to know each other, and have that sense of personal and professional connection, what's the point of an online community? It's a balancing act, and it's not easy.

Thanks! On our forum we have an introduction section, where we encourage people to talk about themselves and their background and passions. We even have a welcome moderator whose job is to help make newcomers get adjusted. While I think people really do enjoy this, it is still a big leap to start posting your own topics and getting reactions to their posts in other people's topics.

I find myself unable to keep up with new members and frankly due to our churn, typically dont recognize members with less than about 100 posts. It sucks because I know that we loose great voices and opinions everyday, but what can you do.

We also battle with quality vs quantity of members. Quality members typically come from word of mouth introductions, so we dont pay for advertising but rather spend any money offline hosting events. We also do like the prestige of building our forum community larger but this usually comes with disruptive or immature members who create drama and cause us to loose members who "liked it better back in the day when it was smaller."

That's totally how I started Brandon - asking everyone questions, reading everything and commenting on posts. I'm sure I annoyed some people but everyone has to start somewhere so just go for it; some will help and some won't, so get on with those that and forget the ones that don't.

Sure does. Forums overtime become databases of information - which turns into a situation where most all great questions have already been asked and old members start saying SEARCH you fool your questions have been asked repeatily before. We had to create an ask a question section where new members could ask questions without feeling intimidated.

I like to think that there are still tons of new great questions that need to be asked or asked again in light of new developments.

seomoz is such a big resource that it would be hard to know if your question has been answered before or not.

Hell its better to ask questions and learn rather than make assumptions or be ignorant.

There has been a plethora of insightful comments in this thread, and I'm glad I could contribute towards that. I had honestly never heard of a SEMMY though, I had to Google it. In crass British slang, I can promise you that a "semi" means something entirely different. Not sure I'd want to be on a stage with a *ahem* "semmy".

Anyway, I'd just like to add that Dr Pete needs to do a series of insightful posts like this, it breaks up the pure SEOness of it all whilst remaining relevant.

Anyway... shouldn't you all be working rather than reading/posting here ;)

Thanks for the post Pete, and to everyone else for the interesting & thought provoking comments.

When I started out in this industry, I knew exactly one person in SEO, Lindsay. She got me interested in SEO and recommended I start following a few key people on Twitter. I also decided to go to my first SEO conference around the same time. Honestly, I was absolutely scared to death to go and have to network with strangers. Luckily Lindsay was there and graciously introduced me to many people. Some of them quickly forgot I ever existed, while others I began to form friendships with.

I started talking more about SEO related topics on twitter and jumping into conversations btwn the people I was following. It didn't take too long until people who were "in" started following and interacting with me as well. This only happened because I jumped in full force and started participating in conversations.

Now, I'm not trying to say in any sense that I'm "in" because I'm not. I guarantee that many people in the industry have no idea who I am. I'm lucky in the fact that I have a very memorable name, so people sometimes remember me that way. But I feel quite awkward sometimes at social events and am HORRIBLE about walking up to people and talking to them.

In fact if I had it my way, I'd stand in a corner and people watch. I LOVE talking to people, but I have a hard time making the first move. When I go to conferences and such I have to work hard at putting my "talk to people" hat on. I guess my point is that everyone starts out not knowing anyone or very few people. If you want to be "known" you have to make yourself known. Interacting with people and joining conversations is a great way to do that.

As Casey mentioned above, he's only met one SEO person in real life! But anyone who reads SEOmoz knows who he is and knows he's a part of the community. Is he in a clique, or is he just in a community?

I participate in the SEO community as a whole and for the most part quite enjoy it. I've tried my best to not become a part of any cliques and try to be open and helpful to anyone who has questions. I don't make it on Top X lists and I think that's a good thing. It's too easy to lose yourself and get a big head when you become popular.

Ok ok I'm rambling here... I really enjoy posts like this because they get you thinking about yourself and how you deal with these situations. I like being a part of the community... helping, participating, contributing, learning. That to me is the reward, not being on some list.

I really should add though... that if I were to get a SEMMY I'd be pretty psyched! I'm human. :) But believe me I don't *expect* that to happen simply because I know someone on the panel. The only way that is going to happen is if I continue to write and become a better writer.

For those who know me, know that I freely admit to SEOmoz to being my path to being "known" in the field. I have a loyalty to it and to the people I met here, including Dr. Pete.

I have lost contact with some people I used to talk to on these comments. Some reasons are due to the conflict between groups and others I dont know why.

The onset of twitter and me taking the plunge into guest blogging for people only increased that circle, and as my confidence grew, so did my voice. I am outspoken, yet I stay away from inter group arguments, and only rarely take sides. I have learnt one thing, taking sides in public is more hassle than its worth.

I filter stuff people say to me or about others, and keep certain discussions out of public domain.

In terms of widening your circle, dont be shy. I remeber introducing myself to so many people at my first SMX, I was completely unknown. Now, i get people coming up to me to tell me about stuff I have written at those same events.

You nailed it - I've been focused solely on SEO for a short period of time, but I've been to a few conferences and "cliqueness" was the first thing that came to mind. I follow all the right SEOs on Twitter, and just about none of these Tweeting gods will deign to have a conversation with someone who's not a fellow panelist. With people like Rand being an exception, some of these SEO rock stars delude themselves into thinking they are just that.

I think it's easy to mock awards and lists in our own industry, but we have to be careful about putting SEO on a pedestal. How valid our awards in any industry? Do the Oscars represent the best actors in the world? Do the Grammys represent the finest music throughout history? Do the Olympics only have the best athletes? Even the "best" often have the benefit of circumstance and privilege.

My point is simply that I think it's valid to try to recognize quality when we see it, as long as we take that recognition with a grain of salt. I also think it's valid to criticize awards and accolades when we feel they fall short. This isn't unique to SEO, though - it's true of every field and endeavor.

I for one, had no intention of mocking anything. I can't conceive of an awards or recognition system for SEO that could possibly have any validity. Particularly a "These are the top SEOs" type award since you would have to measure SEO and many excellent practitioners would not want their work made public like that.

I wouldn't mock any such attempt at an award however. I probably wouldn't even know it existed. If I came across such an award or someone's top 10 SEOs list, I might find it laughable or I might feel that it is damaging to the SEO industry. I certainly wouldn't waste my time commenting on it.

"Do the Oscars represent the best actors in the world?"

Nope but they represent a recognisable and influencial set of Hollywood insiders' judgement of Hollywood achievement. They certainly have weaknesses and I think you make a very good point.

A lot of the discussion below seems to be about the SEMMYs. I see from your post below that you were/are up for an award there. Congratulations.

I was totally unaware of the SEMMYs. They seem to be awards for the best articles and blog posts. I'd say that seems totally valid to me. Pretty close to your example of the Oscars. People might question whether the judging panel could be improved or widened or question the nomination process and those questions should be openly considered.

To be clear. An award for writing about SEO is not an award for SEO. The "writing about SEO industry" and the "SEO industry" aren't the same thing. The leading lights of the writing about SEO industry are probably not the leading lights of the doing SEO industry.

There is much very good writing done about SEO and this site is often an excellent example. Good SEO writing deserves recognition, particularly given the amount of total crap that is also written.

Those that write well about SEO gain credibility and marketing benefits as well as links. More power to them. Unfortunately the scrabble for the same credibility benefits and links probably accounts for the motivation for the vast amount of inaccurate junk that is also written but that is probably a different problem.

Good SEO writing should be recognised and if someone is making a serious attempt to do that, I commend them. I'd be careful not to confuse good SEO writing with good SEO though.

Sorry, my "it's easy to mock" comment was meant more broadly, not really as a reaction to just your comment. I think you raise a very valid distinction - it's one thing to judge the collective work of an industry and another to judge the people themselves. Whether or not someone believes the SEMMYs are judged the way they should be, you can compare one blog post to another, especially in the same niche. Comparing one expert to another is a lot harder, and inevitably involves even more of the politics of friendship.

Not to put words in people's mouths, but this was essentially the criticism Rae Hoffman levied against the Invesp Top 100 Marketer awards a couple of weeks ago (one of the posts that got me thinking about the subject). How do you pick the top 100 people in any industry? Of course, this happens in many industries - Fortune and similar publications have lists like this all the time. Look at Time Magazine's "Person of the Year". How can you claim with a straight face that you can pick the best 1 person out of 6,000,000,000+? Have they met everyone on Earth? I'm exaggerating, obviously, but I think the criticism is entirely valid.

I think a lot of this depends on how seriously you take it and also how literally. Your extreme is a perfect example. If Time were to make a serious claim that they had an airtight methodology for assessing the worlds "best" person they'd be laughed out of the room. Nobody's ever going to win that award and go out and claim to be a better person than someone else when competing against them for work.

With professional awards it is entirely possible that someone will be competing against someone else and using an award to indicate they are better than the competition. Better than someone who may have never heard of the award cause they were busy working? Better than someone who doesn't engage in the world of self promotion quite as much? Better at SEO because they won an award for their blog posts?

I'm not suggesting that current or past nominees of the SEMMYs or other awards have or would use this particular award in these ways. I just think they are interesting issues that are raised.

There would probably always be some difficulty with any professional award. I think SEO may always be worse. Traditional marketers could maybe be fairly judged on their campaigns etc. I don't know. Many SEOs do a lot of their work in private and possibly shout least about their biggest achievements (for various reasons).

As an outsider looking in, I can say that most of the comments on here are true. The perception is that the industry is made up of a lot of people trying to self promote their personal brand or business.

I've been to a few conferences and never felt like I fit in even though I've been doing SEO professionally for 8 years. I always chalked that up to my own social inadequecies for not approaching people or giving the appearance of not being approachable. That's a big part of it too.

I don't blog, post comments almost never, and tweet very rarely. Very few people know who I am, but that's ok.

Thanks for the post Dr Pete, next time I'm at a conference I will make every effort to introduce myself to people and participate in conversations.

You'd be amazed how many of us feel the way you do. I think it was Lisa Barone who posted a year or two ago about her first conference experience and how incredibly nervous she was. At the time, this amazed me, because I thought Lisa was just naturally one of the "in-crowd" (and, to be fair, she's certainly made a name for herself). We tend to think of SEO as being full of extroverts and party animals, but many of us are techies and geeks, and the transition to such a social world takes time and effort.

Very thought provoking article and the comments, my goodness!! couldn't read them all!!

Maybe I'm being a sadist in saying this, but I have a funny feeling that the actual people who should read this and take note might not do so! A lot of the things talked about here are logical things which a rational and logical-thinking person should know (the way I see it), but we all know that human beings aren't quite rational! So there will always be people out there bad mouthing and saying stuff.

Really, I could sum this up in 'Do unto others as you want done to you'. Thats my philosophy when it comes to networking and being in cliques, which at the moment I don't do much of cos I just joined SEO a few months ago. But if more people did this, I'm sure the world would be a much happier and nicer place!!

hallo Dr.Pete! I must admit i liked your post the moment i read it. The way you have highlighted the stark realities make me chuckle. And i appreciate the way you suggested people are only a clique away.Cheers!

I haven't seen any complaints about the SEMMYs this year. Having been nominated six times (twice in two categories) I felt rather pleased with myself this year. Of course, I did not make it to the next level so I'm out of the running -- but I couldn't care less about that.

The SEMMYs may never become a foundation for industry standards but they at least allow people to acknowledge the sharing.

Very few of the articles that made it to the voting stage are shmucky. Most of them are pretty good. If people don't like the fact that judges are being nominated for awards in categories they don't judge -- and that judges' articles make it to the voting stage -- well, those people can always start another SEO Award Program.

I was somewhat disappointed to see Loren Baker discontinue Search Engine Journal's annual SEO awards. I guess he just didn't have time for them.

I don't think I was ever on any nominee list for those awards. Nonetheless, recognition from your peers is recognition from your peers. People should feel honored that they are being heard and are helping to shape an industry that might continue on for another 100 years.

My boss wants me to be more "out there," posting blog posts, speaking at conferences, and becoming popular in the industry. But frankly, I couldn't care less about how popular I am in the field of SEO. I have work to do. I have plans to implement, changes to make, traffic to measure, more changes to make, content to post, keywords to target, REAL industry news to keep up with, infrastructure changes to send to my developers, meetings to go to ... seriously, I'm too damn busy to schmooze and hold hands with people just to get an award. I get an award every two weeks in the form of a paycheck.

It goes beyond popularity, though - writing, speaking, and associating with peers is an integral part of how we learn, IMO. Yes, I think getting our hands dirty and doing real SEO in the field is critical, but even if we carefully collect data, we can be biased by our own limited realm of clients and how we interpret the facts. When I write about my opinions (no matter how informed I think they are) or discuss them with other SEOs, that's where I really put my knowledge to the test and grow.

To make the issue less controversial, consider my primary field of usability. I am, by all rights, a specialist in the field, with the credentials and experience to back it up. I can tell you, though, that I have a client whose site I've worked on since 1999, and I have blinders on with that site. I HAVE to bring in outside perspectives - in fact, that's a critical part of what usability is all about. If I just put my head down and bury myself in that work, I lose perspective, and the project ultimately suffers.

Good point. I do have a boss from a previous job that I occasionally bounce ideas and problems off of and vice versa, and that collaborative time is quite valuable. I just think that pursuing popularity for the sake of popularity would be a huge distraction for me. To those who have the time and resources to be productive and publish papers, I'm freakin' jealous.

No argument there. I took a month off of Twitter last year, and the irony is that it was both incredibly productive and yet also showed me just how valuable some aspects of Twitter had become for me. As I've said to people new to it, the first half-hour per day is really productive; it's the next 5 hours that are the problem :) Like everything, it all comes down to a balancing act, and I doubt any of us has it quite right.

Yea I agree, I am hear to learn not become popular. I am not an SEO consultant or I would be trying to build my own brand. I am an internet marketer and believe that posting intelligent dialog on here will help me make sure I am learning correctly.

To the insiders, it's a group of people at the top who have become friends and share common interestes. To the outsiders, it's an untouchable golden inner circle that practically guarantees future success. You can't get in until you've had success but you can't have success until you get in, etc.

Perception is such a big thing. Maybe it's people at the top who have worked really hard and cultivated relationships to build thier businesses and the "outsiders" who are would rather think the worst instead of putting in the work to get them on the inside?

I really loved the ending reminder... play nice, help others and at the very least, score some karma points.

I think that makes definitely makes sense in the SEO field and other industries where the market is fragmented enough to make helping the competition not a zero sum game. Helping another person in the SEO field is unlikely to result in lost business and the resulting mutual co-operation could result in higher visibility for both. In the consumer goods industry, it's a bit different since there is usually a flat market and only a few competitors, so co-operation tends to be pretty low.

This post made me feel very humbled, We do tend to forget that although we expect empathy and consideration from others as we deem it human natures kindness. we don't always show the same to others. I love the law of recoprocity and we could all learn from the movie pay it forward.

I completely agree with what you said about how easy it is to find approval from our own family/friends. What is really difficult is finding approval/appreciation from complete strangers. When you manage to become so good in your field of work that complete strangers get to appreciate you, then you know you are someone.

I agree. I think approval from our friends and family is sought quite a bit. I mean, I know I've jumped hurdles to gain rank in my family. It's only natural though. However if we applied the same efforts towards our guests, our consumers rather than search for clicks then we might approach where we want to be much faster. I really enjoyed this article. Good stuff from everyone. I provide hosting information at Tennessee Web Hosting but I think my visitors would really enjoy this info. Thanks and keep it going.

It's vital to be your own person and not be concerned about your popularity. Be considerate to other people of course but always be true to your own principals and philosophies. Certainly something that has always held us in good stead in our Kleeneze opportunity. [removed link]

"When someone challenges you publicly, listen and think before you counterattack."

If they can't do it politely, i just block them and move on.. if someone wants my time to explain why they don't understand my opinion.. they need to pay for my time.. with $$$ or at minimum show some respect.. because arguing on the internet is like (insert slanderous description of some member of a disadvantaged group winning an award, etc..)

Arguing or Verbal combat in writing is NEVER a good idea.. anywhere..

Jane...
excellent observation...

The rude loudmouths are the ones we allow to represent us? only if we let it... you fly low under the radar... you don't make the "lists" but your work product has improved...

hmm... i'd rather take the work product than the accolades on someone's blog, who probably won't show up in safe search anyways due to the foul language.. which means the business people that hire us... won't see us... so yay! we won #X something on a list, because people who won't be hiring us anyways, (other SEOs) voted on a search blog that won't show up in search...

Absolutely - I don't think you have to acknowledge every loudmouth that comes along. If I spend 20 hours on a video (even for fun) and the most insightful comment someone can come up with is "Gay.", I'm not exactly going to pursue a rigorous intellectual debate with them. Those who can, do. Those who can't, criticize.

I just mean that, when someone thoughtfully and sincerely criticizes us and our work, even if they're outside of our circle, we should stop and listen. It doesn't mean that they're right or that we should crawl in a hole and cry, just that we should always be open to improvement. Real skill breeds confidence, and real confidence can stand a few critics.

"If you're at a conference talking to a group and you see someone standing outside the circle with that awkward look of faux participation, invite them in."

Absolutely spot-on. So many of us have way more talent than bravery. Think of learning SEO & networking like dating (a) if you don't grab a little courage and speak up, you won't get any :-), and (b) only ONE of you has to have that courage to get the ball rolling.

The first thing that caught my eye was "...the flaws that are obvious in others are often hidden and unconscious in ourselves." Boy do I know that to be true! Unfortunately it often takes a lot of time, hurt feelings, and apologies on both sides to learn this concept. Although not fun to go through, it does help us grow as people; mostly personally, but professionally as well, if you're dealing with coworkers.

Secondly, "If someone is new to blogging, comment, subscribe, or even link to them." As I've just begun my personal blog a few months ago, it's been hard to get my first official link or people to subscribe. There's so much I have yet to learn about blogging finess, and as I don't have much time, it's going to take a while. But I'm sure those of you who are established bloggers can remember that first official link you got or your first real subscriber (excluding your mom and your best friend)...it must have felt pretty darn good! That's something I'm looking forward to. :)

Those are just a couple of things that jumped out at me. Great post. I think it's important to touch on this topic every once in a while among the myriad of technical posts published each week.

Im sorry but at times many of the awards and recognitions just keep failing on the same people/blogs... while i agree that many deserve it, i assume a portion is only getting any traffic because of these awards/member badges...

I thought when we got reported or flagged for doing something we shouldn't be it was from those outside our circle of trust, most likely that sketchy other circle we never joined ;)

A welcome post Pete, so thankyou.
I've realised this in conversations with friends recently is that in different situations we find ourselvers professionally pressured - and thats politics.
For in house SEOs its likely far worse, as your the only one who "gets it"... and that creates arrogance.
Which we take out on others.