Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. You did not read it like that. You knew that she was 2called Burnstone? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Why would I know that she was called Burnstone? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because it is in the footnote and it was read out to you. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
If I misread it, misreadings do occur. You have been 6misreading words---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait until we have found the docment. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
You have been repeatedly misreading words throughout the 9last few days but I have not commented on that. 10MR RAMPTON: "Do not worry. I will come back to it tomorrow. 11You may have a chance to answer properly. Let me go on. 12The problem is somebody has apparently issued a leaflet. 13I am sure that none of us here is personally responsible. 14The hoax, including a picture on the front cover of a 15notorious saisai" -- what is that? "Anti-Semitic forgery. 16The protocols of the learned elders of Zion. The covers 17cartoon which protects its serpent encircling the world 18used to have a traditional crude character of a hideous 19Jewish face, but it now includes instead a picture of 20Gerry Gable. I wonder how they spotted the difference." 21A.
[Mr Irving]
You know the connection with Gerry Gable, of course. Or 22shall I explain it to you? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it so you do not need to. 24MR RAMPTON: I do not want to know. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Gerry Gable is also no friend of mine, so I am quite happy 26to describe him in these terms.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. Another of your enemies whom you insult by, as it 2were, comparing with a hideous Jewish face - is that 3right? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Whether he is Jewish or not is neither here nor there. He 5is hideous, he is immoral, he has spent the last 36 years 6of his life trying to destroy me and my family because he 7has a criminal conviction for breaking into my house. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But the insult which you have prepared -- apparently they 9thought it was jolly funny because they laughed -- for 10Mr Gable is that he should replace the hideous Jewish 11face, is it not?. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, it certainly was not forged by me. I do know who 13did that but obviously other people hold the same opinion 14of Mr Gable as I do. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
My problems began in October of last year when I was 16speaking in Los Angeles and I received a letter from the 17Canadian government telling me not to come home on my 18projected tour of Canada which was to cover 17 cities from 19Vancouver right the way across to Ottawa. The Canadian 20governments had been alerted by the Simon Wiesenthal 21Institute in Los Angeles and immediately clicked their 22heels together and said "Ja vohl, Herr Wiesenthal, we will 23not let him in". Now tell me about this Wiesenthal 24again. I asked you before and you said, "Oh no, it is not 25the well known Simon Wiesenthal". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, of course, H I E R is the director of the Wiesenthal

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1Centre. The Wiesenthal Centre in Los Angeles has no 2connection with Simon Wiesenthal apart from the concession 3they pay him every year for the use of his name. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But it is a Jewish organization, is it? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I imagine that they restrict their intake of employees to 6Jews, yes, but I have no information on that. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not know about that, but it is some kind of Jewish 8institute in Los Angeles, no doubt in some part concerned 9with the history of the Holocaust? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I have collaborated with them in the past with 11documents and things. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then comes the stuff about the Wiesenthal facial 13appearance and its comparison with the Halloween mask. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I think I should explain. It may very well help his 15Lordship. This date is wrong on this. It is not 1992, it 16is definitely 1993, after I have had to go through the 17harrowing episode of being deported and handcuffed on the 18floor of an Air Canada plane, after I have been thrown out 19of Germany. All these things have happened as the result 20of the machinations of these people around the world, 21after I have been banned from Australia. So I am afraid 22you have the wrong year on this and suddenly everything 23clicks into place. I am perfectly entitled to criticise 24these people for what they have done to me. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As we noticed before, when an anti-Semite is rattled or 26riled, out comes the anti-Semitic language.

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
No, critical language. This is unfortunately where you 2make a mistake, Mr Rampton. When you are critical of what 3the Jews do to you as Jews, it is not anti-Semitism. They 4are entitled to take their action against me as Jews but, 5if I criticise them, it becomes anti-Semitism. Have 6I understood correctly? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, you have not. I do not think you are trying, 8actually. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I am trying very hard to understand the point that you are 10trying to make. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The answer to one's enemies is not that they are ugly Jews 12with silly names, it is that they are acting badly, is it 13not? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
They were doing all of it. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But what relevance is it that they have ugly Jewish faces 16and silly Jewish names? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you are talking about the ugly Jewish face. You are 18referring to the episode with the Halloween mask in which 19the word "Jew" does not figure. We are talking about a 20man who is well known for not being a particularly 21beautiful gentleman. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What relevance has it to your defence against him that he 23happens not to be beautiful? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I am just making fun of him. If I had made fun of any 25other person who was not Jewish, it would never have 26occurred to them to say this is anti-Semitism or

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1anti-Asian or anti-French. If I made fun of Monsieur 2Mitterand, for example, or Jacques Cherac, I would not be 3accused of being anti-French if I said that he had a 4ridiculous face that looked like a Halloween mask. I 5would be accused of being anti-Mitterand or anti-Cherac. 6But, because we are talking here about Wiesenthal, 7suddenly different rules apply. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, when you reach a convenient 9moment? 10MR RAMPTON: I have not quite finished this, I am afraid. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
He is beginning to whimper a bit and he wants to find 12a---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is unnecessary. We will be here a 14long time if you go on. 15MR RAMPTON: You are not going to provoke me at this time of 16night, Mr Irving. I can do another two of these things or 17I can stop and do them in the morning. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you finished on this particular 19document? 20MR RAMPTON: I have finished on Wiesenthal. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think, in all the circumstances, we 22will adjourn until 10.30 until tomorrow morning. 23< (The witness withdrew)24 (The court adjourned until the following day)2526