Ajahn Sumedho has also said many times that pure consciouss awareness is the true refuge, since you dont create awareness but you can create a self around/out of awareness through ignorance but its this pure awareness that is the unconditoned, unmade, unborn etc

On this thread someonme made the above comment. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=961Just thought it deserved to be refuted on its own thread. I have no idea if Sumedho ever said this but whoever did it is not what the Buddha taught. There - refuted now.

"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?

34. "When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

35. "Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, 20 if they have the desire to learn."

"Therefore, Ananda, each of you should remain with your self as an island, your self as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge. Remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as your refuge, without anything else as a refuge. And how does a monk remain with his self as an island, his self as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge? How does he remain with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk remains with his self as an island, his self as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as his refuge, without anything else as a refuge. For those who — now or after I am gone — remain with their self as an island, their self as their refuge, without anything else as a refuge, with the Dhamma as an island, the Dhamma as their refuge, without anything else as a refuge, they will be the highest of the monks who desire training."

The buddhas teachings are always pointing us to this deep, subtle awarness

When one is completely aware, there is no sense of self, no I making. There is no ignorance about dhammas as you see them as they are so there is no craving, no clinging and so there is no dependent origination anymore, no birth no death, no pain or fear and so no dukkha

There is just pure awareness of everything, seeing things as they are

Peaceful, calm and unconditioned

Still, flowing water

Metta

Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:26 pm, edited 8 times in total.

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search. Sextus Empiricus

Maybe this quote from Ajahn Sumedho's book Intuitive Awareness is useful for this thread:

In terms of this conditioned realm that we perceive, create and hold to, it is a very unstable, uncertain, undependable and changing condition in itself. That’s just the way it is. The Buddha pointed to the instability of conditioned phenomena, to their impermanence. This is not just a philosophy that he was expecting us to go along with. We explore and see the nature of the conditioned realm in just the way we experience it, the physical, the emotional and the mental. But that which is aware of it — your refuge is in this awakened awareness, rather than in trying to find or create a condition that will give us some sense of security. We are not trying to fool ourselves, to create a false sense of security by positive thinking. The refuge is in awakening to reality, because the unconditioned is reality. This awareness, this awakeness is the gate to the unconditioned. When we awaken, that is the unconditioned, the actual awakeness is that. The conditions are whatever they are — strong or weak, pleasant or painful, whatever.

Consciousness and the body are natural conditions. To be able to see them in terms of Dhamma means to awaken to the way it is. The body, not as some personal identity but as this experience right now, is sitting here giving this reflection, and then there is consciousness. We usually don’t recognize pure consciousness because we are highly conditioned to think—we are attached to views and opinions, memories, emotional habits, to a sense of self. Then we create ourselves out of these various conditions: as Americans, or whatever. Ajahn Pasanno is now an American—legally! This we can consider as a convention

When we’re obstructed by this sense of a separate identity as a personality, an ego, or by culturally and socially conditioned views that we’ve acquired, and the language that we think in, it always leads to some kind of insecurity or doubt. When these are not challenged or awakened to, then we tend to be operating from positions, taking sides, defining ourselves according to the religious convention, or the social condition we have, the gender of the body, the color of the skin, or whatever. These are our precious identities that we will fight over, quarrel over, and abuse each other endlessly around—the conditions that we’ve acquired, not out of wisdom and understanding, but out of ignorance. In this sense, ignorance is not like being illiterate, rather it’s not understanding, not knowing Dhamma. In other words, as long as one is limited and bound into the conditioned realm then there’s this ignorance. Consciousness operates and remains the same, but ignorance influences how we see and create the world around us.

Now with sati and paññā (wisdom), this leads to discernment, to seeing Dhamma, rather than in seeing a conditioned attitude or a positioning in the conditioned realm. With sati and sampajañña—awareness, mindfulness, apperception—there is the ability that each one of us has to open to the totality of this moment, in which it’s not a thought, it’s not a perception, but it is recognizable: it’s like this. That is consciousness. We’re suddenly recognizing consciousness itself,which is that which is ordinary and that we’re experiencing all the time. But when we’re always perceiving ourselves through conditioning, then we don’t recognize consciousness. We’re merely using consciousness and projecting into it our own sense of self, conditioned attitudes, emotional habits, and identities.

The actual word Buddha means Awakened. It’s a “wake-up” teaching. Somebody asked me one time, “Could you describe Buddhism in one sentence?” And I said, “I can do it in one word.” He said, “What’s that?” “Wake-up!”

With this sense of awakened consciousness, when there is this, then we recognize, we realize Dhamma. We recognize the conditions in terms of Dhamma, we discern all conditions are impermanent. It’s not attaching to a view that, “All conditions are impermanent.” We actually know this, we discern it. And then we also discern the unconditioned. We recognize nibbāna, anattā, suññata, nirodha. These are the words for the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unconditioned. This is in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, and is recognizable. I’ve used this teaching now for all of my monastic life and have been putting it to the test

I don't see in these quotes where Ajahn Sumedho, or the Suttas, say that this development of awareness, refuge, etc, is Nibbana. I think there is a serious confusion here between the path and the destination.

In fact, as I recall, Ajahn Sumedho has explicitly stated in a talk I listened to (perhaps on his 70th birthday) that he has not realised Nibbana.

Having some knowledge and confidence in the Dhamma, or even having some insights, is not Nibbana. There is a lot more work to be done.

"The unconditioned"? It is a thing, something "out there"? What do the suttas say?

Its not "out there" because arahantship is in the here and now

I cant describe to you the unconditioned because its unconditioned these are just conditioned words trying to describe that which cant be described

When i say awareness, this is just a word isnt it, the reality of it is much more its just this word gives a vague idea of what is being discussed, you cant convey what awareness is by words it is just something that must be known to be understood

i take it by the fact you highlighted my use of the word "the" your implying it is some kind of entity or thing, thats not the intention its just conventional use

There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

Its just conventional to use words such as "the" or "that" etc

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search. Sextus Empiricus

There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

The is an unborn? Where is it? What is it?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

Irrelevant. The point is that you can't describe it because, like the rest of us, you have no experience of it...

In my view, you're missing one of the first steps on the path, which is to realise that you don't know...

Mike

Sure i could be wrong and awareness is just the way to and whats left after nibbana, i did say in the other thread that all this was coming from my own understanding of my meditation exp. and teachings i have read/heard, mainly from Ajahn Sumedho

When we awaken, that is the unconditioned, the actual awakeness is that

from all the teachings i heard from him and from my own meditation as i understand it, awareness is uncondioned and deathless, when one is fully aware that is the deathless

We all have experience of it we just dont realise, its always there its just over looked because its so subtle and ordinary

Metta

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search. Sextus Empiricus

clw_uk wrote:We all have experience of it we just dont realise, its always there its just over looked because its so subtle and ordinary

With metta, I think you are probably seriously overestimating and overinterpreting your experiences. Go and spend a few days with Ajahn Sumedho, or some other competent teacher, and then tell us if you're still so confident about your knowledge...

clw_uk wrote:We all have experience of it we just dont realise, its always there its just over looked because its so subtle and ordinary

With metta, I think you are probably seriously overestimating and overinterpreting your experiences. Go and spend a few days with Ajahn Sumedho, or some other competent teacher, and then tell us if you're still so confident about your knowledge...

Mike

Thank you for your advice

Just to be clear though im not declaring final knowledge,

in reguards to arahantship always being there this comes from the fact that arahantship isnt becoming, you dont become an arahant, its a realization of reality, reality isnt created its always there its just overlooked or smothered by ignorance etc which is why the buddha says

'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise

Subtle and hard to see are important words here i feel, if something is subtle and hard to see its already there isnt it its just easily overlooked because its so subtle or hard to detect

Its beyond the scope of conjecture since you cant think into awareness "I will be aware" you just are aware, awareness isnt thinking its just knowing

This i feel is what Ajahn Sumedho teaches

The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.

clw_uk wrote:Just to be clear though im not declaring final knowledge, ...

Nevertheless, you are lecturing us on the nature of that final knowledge and how we should interpret the Suttas, etc...

Regarding Ajahn Sumedho's statement here:

The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.

It is certainly should become obvious after a while that meditating "to get something" doesn't work very well. I'm a bit slow so it took me a while to really understand this properly...

PS, it's much clearer what Ajahn Sumedho is saying if you quote the whole paragraph or so. I don't see that he's implying anything about "already being enlightened".

Sumedho wrote:With the right understanding, we see that the very desire 'to get rid of' is suffering. We can bear with the feeling of insecurity if we know what it is, and that it changes, it's impermanent. So more and more you begin to feel confident in just being aware and mindful rather than trying to develop your practice in order to become an enlightened person. The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.