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I agree 100% with OP. Problem is WoW, always WoW. It came and over time conquered 10 million subs and now every suit and bean counter out there want a piece of the pie. So these people, aka as investors and producers, will only fund WoW ThemeParks so other developers who are trying to follow the vision of Richard Garriot to create a world and not just a game, struggle to get the funds needed.

So there is some light at the end of tunnel with companies like SOE saying that EQ next will be sandbox but unless that is developed and delivered we will be stuck with underfunded indy projects. The MMORPG genre needs atleast one successful triple A sandbox to show the suit and bean counters that there is profit to be made, even if the game is not a WoW ThemePark.

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He speaks for me so the 'we' is definetely appropriate as there are lots of us who yearns for a virtual world MMO. We does not mean everyone.

Of course, anyone critical of the industry in any way is speaking for you.

You're a very reliable "Me Too".

But regardless of the agreeability (or not) of his message, he doesn't have the right to elect himself to speak for everyone.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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Tell me when you organise the elections (i assume it will be democratic choice , and you dont plan violent revolution to set (yourself as) dictator) I will love to run for it !

All I want is for you to drop the hubris and speak for yourself, with your own voice.

It isn't that hard, really. "What I would like to see...etc."

I know, we've all been speaking Condescending for so long that it's almost unthinkable...but do try. Drop the Rebel Leader act.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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Start by stop buying and supporting games like GW2. When you cna do that i will take you more seriously.

I will totally change my game buying habbits right now ! Because I really care that you personally take me seriously.

So why even bother to make OP then? because if continue to support games like GW2 and then make an OP about wanting a world and ask 'if we will ever get it'. What is the point? just to raise the stink?

No one takes an alcoholic seriously when he gives advice to others on stop drinking because it is bad for their health. You need to stop drinking first and then you can speak on behalf of others. Simple logic.

So yeah sorry bud but you do need to change your gaming habits to give credibility to your OP. All i see is double standards especially when you write stuff like this...

And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012. Basically Single player games with other people running around.

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Lead by an example if you really want to speak for 'us'.Start by stop buying and supporting games like GW2. When you cna do that i will take you more seriously.

I will totally change my game buying habbits right now ! Because I really care that you personally take me seriously.

So why even bother to make OP then? because if continue to support games like GW2 and then make an OP about wanting a world and ask 'if we will ever get it'. What is the point? just to raise the stink?

No one takes an alcoholic seriously when he gives advice to others on stop drinking because it is bad for their health. You need to stop drinking first and then you can speak on behalf of others. Simple logic.

So yeah sorry bud but you do need to change your gaming habits to give credibility to your OP. All i see is double standards especially when you write stuff like this...

And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012. Basically Single player games with other people running around.

Sounds more like a politician talk to me.

I wish people would stop trying to use analogies on forums. They just don't work.

People do listen to alcoholics when they say you shouldn't drink, because (a) it's good advice and (b) they are a good example of what can happen to you if you're alcoholic and you drink.

The problem with the OP is that there are people who don't want worlds, they want games. If this weren't the case, games like GW2 wouldn't sell millions of copies in a couple weeks. There is no "We", only "Me, and other people who think like me". It's the phrasing, nothing more.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

The problem with the OP is that there are people who don't want worlds, they want games. If this weren't the case, games like GW2 wouldn't sell millions of copies in a couple weeks. There is no "We", only "Me, and other people who think like me". It's the phrasing, nothing more.

I don't object to his message, at all. Just his tone, delivery. You do see politicians do it, quite often.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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Lead by an example if you really want to speak for 'us'.Start by stop buying and supporting games like GW2. When you cna do that i will take you more seriously.

I will totally change my game buying habbits right now ! Because I really care that you personally take me seriously.

So why even bother to make OP then? because if continue to support games like GW2 and then make an OP about wanting a world and ask 'if we will ever get it'. What is the point? just to raise the stink?

No one takes an alcoholic seriously when he gives advice to others on stop drinking because it is bad for their health. You need to stop drinking first and then you can speak on behalf of others. Simple logic.

So yeah sorry bud but you do need to change your gaming habits to give credibility to your OP. All i see is double standards especially when you write stuff like this...

And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012. Basically Single player games with other people running around.

Sounds more like a politician talk to me.

I wish people would stop trying to use analogies on forums. They just don't work.

People do listen to alcoholics when they say you shouldn't drink, because (a) it's good advice and (b) they are a good example of what can happen to you if you're alcoholic and you drink.

The problem with the OP is that there are people who don't want worlds, they want games. If this weren't the case, games like GW2 wouldn't sell millions of copies in a couple weeks. There is no "We", only "Me, and other people who think like me". It's the phrasing, nothing more.

My anology was just simple way to show that if you want others to agree with you on something and you decide to stand on the soapbox to speak on their behalf, it is better to lead by an example.

Supporting games like GW2 and then makign statements about 'wanting the world, sandbox and how games are pathetic in 2012' makes his whole OP very contradictory.

Start by stop buying and supporting games like GW2. When you cna do that i will take you more seriously.

I will totally change my game buying habbits right now ! Because I really care that you personally take me seriously.

So why even bother to make OP then? because if continue to support games like GW2 and then make an OP about wanting a world and ask 'if we will ever get it'. What is the point? just to raise the stink?

No one takes an alcoholic seriously when he gives advice to others on stop drinking because it is bad for their health. You need to stop drinking first and then you can speak on behalf of others. Simple logic.

So yeah sorry bud but you do need to change your gaming habits to give credibility to your OP. All i see is double standards especially when you write stuff like this...

And we have what we have today. Shallow abominations. Most laughable of which would be MMOs that came 2012. Basically Single player games with other people running around.

Sounds more like a politician talk to me.

Lets consider the crazy possibility that person can enjoy several different types of games.

GW2 is high quality game with very dedicated team behind it. Its fun CASUAL game. But should not be considered real MMO - world. As nothing made 2012 should.

And I think its also very important game for MMO history - because it put the nail in the coffin of subscription fees for themepark games.

I think everyone should buy it , and thus demonstrate that we dont want to pay subscription for shallow themepark games anymore.

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Originally posted by Lobotomist

We dont want games - we want worlds.

Well. I guess i understand what you want to say. But, those statement is wrong. It is true, that we want worlds, but this doesnt contrasting gaming. We want worlds, but a world without a good amount of gaming in it isnt worth a lot.

Raph Koster, and a few other, have written a lot about this. The book "Theory of fun" from him is just one book about exactly this. And he got a lot of good articles on that subject on his site, too.

Worlds and games is not always contraticting, you can have actually both.

And UO may be a world(although very limited), but it was also a game, or more precisely a lot of games in it. I see it as that. A lot of mmorpgs nowaday focus to much on one game, and abondon the world thing. But it could be a world and different game types in it. That should be the way to go.. and Raph Koster(one of the few who actually did it) tried that with UO and later on with SWG. Sometimes i wish he would try another big budget mmo project.. but for that he need the money and creative freedom, too.

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Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Lobotomist

We dont want games - we want worlds.

Well. I guess i understand what you want to say. But, those statement is wrong. It is true, that we want worlds, but this doesnt contrasting gaming. We want worlds, but a world without a good amount of gaming in it isnt worth a lot.

Raph Koster, and a few other, have written a lot about this. The book "Theory of fun" from him is just one book about exactly this. And he got a lot of good articles on that subject on his site, too.

Worlds and games is not always contraticting, you can have actually both.

And UO may be a world(although very limited), but it was also a game, or more precisely a lot of games in it. I see it as that. A lot of mmorpgs nowaday focus to much on one game, and abondon the world thing. But it could be a world and different game types in it. That should be the way to go.. and Raph Koster(one of the few who actually did it) tried that with UO and later on with SWG. Sometimes i wish he would try another big budget mmo project.. but for that he need the money and creative freedom, too.

I would love to see Koster do another MMO without the product getting rushed by higher ups. The man was on the right track.

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Nice post OP.. as much as I agree and wish for a "world builder" MMO, I think we are outnumbers by the EPEEN chasers.. It seems that a majority of the mmo gamers today do not play to be part of a community to live in dynamic living worlds like AD&D, but want to play shoot em up e-sport games that award bragging rights gear to show off how big their epeen is..

Thing is.. I can understand the pride people feel when they take down the big bad dragon, and recieve unique loot.. But why does it hace to be power changing loot.. We've all seen the effects that "gear check" had in WoW, and it isn't much different in other similar games.. All this does is "divide" the community up into social status segements using gear level.. I saw this lead to so many drama issues, it made me feel as if I was dealing with high schoolers again...

Maybe one day we'll find a dev team that builds worlds and communities, instead of tearing them apart, or having them fight amongst themselves..