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If you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.

However in the manual mode, those adjusters/sliders can be moved to ANY frequency you choose within the 15-110hz range.

please spare us your rudimentary economics , there are members here with slightly higher
education/income levels than what you're probably used to dealing with.

...but also some members with less class than what he's probably used to dealing with, obviously...

I think Dave made his point well. It's easy enough for someone who's good with numbers and has experience importing similar goods to get a feel for what Gem-Sen is charging for its "services". Add in the availability of a Canadian warranty and the significant value of dealing with someone like Dave who obviously cares... and make your own value judgment, as I intend to do.

I think Dave made his point well. It's easy enough for someone who's good with numbers and has experience importing similar goods to get a feel for what Gem-Sen is charging for its "services". Add in the availability of a Canadian warranty and the significant value of dealing with someone like Dave who obviously cares... and make your own value judgment, as I intend to do.

When you live close to the border any sane person who doesn't mind to drive the distance will keep the margin in their pockets. A huge percentage of Canadians live within a hundred miles so more atractive pricing seems in order.

I myself live in Europe and besides a hefty shipping charge I also have to pay close to 25% extra in duties and taxes. Even I choose to import straight from the US in stead of buying similar quality gear with the 50%-100% surcharge shops here carry (and this isn't even American gear ).

I'm glad we had the chance to talk yesterday and look forward to chatting in the future. Yes you did detect a little hesitation when I was quoting MSRP. As with anything sold up here, prices are often higher than the USA and I wanted to make sure that you had a firm understanding of what was involved since some people initially suffer from a bit of sticker shock.

People will often look at US pricing and then do the currency conversion to estimate what they feel the Canadian cost should be. Unfortunately this isn't the way it really works.
Lets say you were a snowbird like many Canadians are who vanish down into sunny Florida at the first sight of frost. While you are down there you visit a local JL AUDIO dealer who sells you a Fathom for your HT that you have at your home in Toronto.

You would obviously pay the US price plus the exchange rate. Great, now you need to get it home. The Fathoms are well protected and the boxes are huge. Unless you drive a mini van and are willing to remove a row of seats (like I have to) you are going to ship it. At 150Lbs shipping is very very expensive. Once it hits the border UPS, FEDEx will tack on their additional brokerage fees for clearing the box for you. Our Prime Minister will quickly point out that it's not NAFTA and they will add the duty and just when you think you're finished they'll add Federal and provincial sales taxes.

I know there are people who are willing to drive into the US and pick it up themselves to save the freight and brokerage and so be it, I can certainly relate to wanting to save a buck. Not everyone has that luxury and as a legitimate company, we must go through all the proper channels.
Once the items get here we need to ship them out to our retailers across Canada once again which I mentioned is far from inexpensive. At the end of the day it's all factored into the final pricing. The good news is that warranty can be taken care of right here in Toronto should anything require servicing.

Yes there is a premium to pay to have the luxury of picking an item up at your local dealer. Unforuately premiums are a fact of life for my fellow Canadians.

At the end of the day, the MSRP is our suggested retail price. Your relationship with your dealer, other items you decide to purchase be it installation or hardware will all play a role to what you and your dealer agree upon.

btw, why is gas thats probably refined from oil in Alberta and cars that are made right here in Canada far cheaper in the USA. Now someone explain that one to me.

-dave

I live in the States. I have a medium size car, so size of the f113 was an issue for me. When I bought my F113 I had to drive and hour and half a way to pick it up. Do to sheer excitement, I obviously did not want to have to wait to have it shipped to me. So I broke the box down and unscrewed the wheels took out the wood plate and placed my f113 in the front seat and the foam, wood plate, wheels, and the box, which I had broke down in the backseat of my car. I kept everything it came with just in case I had to return it for something. I Had a litte trouble seeing out my back window on the way home but other than that it worked out fine .

Originally Posted by DreamCatcherHowever in the manual mode, those adjusters/sliders can be moved to ANY frequency you choose within the 15-110hz range.

Yes, I agree. And I think it's a great product.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

If you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

You can change that width too as I eluded to earlier. Sure the default is the 1/3 step, but it can be adjusted to cover a broader or narrower band. If you are speaking of auto mode only that is true, but most people I know use manual mode to dial it in.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

Im not sure I follow..

Wouldnt you just do a sine sweep in REQW or similar have it record the microphone's input and display the graph? Then you just change the SMS-1 bands to fit the problem parts, measure again, and make changes accordingly...

As I understand it, 1/3 steps in the defined frequency range (15Hz - 199Hz for software 2.1 and 5Hz - 199Hz for software 2.12). You can recenter the graphic control to a given frequency but the curve painted on the display does not show the frequency between the 1/3 steps.

In others words the slope between 1/3 steps is smoothed from step to step (points on a graph) and will not show a spike or dip or flat line in between. Think of it as a sampling frequency. If it were done in 1/12 steps you would have higher resolution and more accurate placement of the "slider" in manual.

EDIT: While I can't find any reference in the SMS-1 manual or Velodynes brochures, I would assume the 1/3 steps to be ISO centered frequencies inside the given frequency range.

Originally Posted by MusicFirstYou can change that width too as I eluded to earlier. Sure the default is the 1/3 step, but it can be adjusted to cover a broader or narrower band. If you are speaking of auto mode only that is true, but most people I know use manual mode to dial it in.

And this may or may not be helpful since you still see the graph through a 1/3 step filter. You can adjust the width of the band channel but not the step.

I did get some answers from our engineers and they are summarized below:

Regarding idle power consumption: less than 20 watts.

Regarding power consumption while playing, it's difficult to come up with a meaningful long-term number because HT high-energy low-frequency information is present only infrequently. With steady-state test tones you can get pretty high current draws (on the order of 25A (3kW), which will overwhelm a typical household circuit if run for very long. In practice with real program material, the duration of these high current draws is short and can be supported by a typical household circuit.

If you want to use a line conditioner, we would suggest something rated for at least 3,000 watts. We honestly do not see much value in the conditioner, but it's your money.

It is our recommendation that a Fathom should plug directly into a wall outlet and that outlet should not be switched, and ideally its circuit should be shared only with low-power consumption stuff say, a few hundred watts, although we've been able to get away with more than this. Incidentally, the AC outlet iself should have its wires connected to the SCREWS on the back, not "back-wired" to the push-in holes. Builders often don't bother to do this correctly because they are lazy... and this zero-dollar mod can have much more benefit than a line conditioner.

Regarding inputs, all four of the inputs are summed together - any and all that receive signal will contribute to the output. So, in this case each of the two subs could have one XLR input from the LFE source and one (RCA ?) unbalanced source from the preamp (NOT to the other XLR through an adaptor!) connected at the same time. What we don't recommend is applying signal from the same source to two different inputs because it's redundant or applying signals from two different sources at the same time, which is silly and might damage the source units. Just make sure whichever source you're not using is turned off. Do this at your own risk.

Hope that helps,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bogg

Couple of questions about the Fathom 113 for anyone including Manville:

1. How much power (watts) does the unit draw from the wall at idle and at full output? Helps me decide what rating line conditioner to get.

2. I had hoped to connect a pair of subs to my stereo and home theater. My home theater front speaker output goes through the "bypass" mode in my stereo preamp whenever I'm watching movies and this stereo preamp uses balanced outputs to the amp driving my main speakers. I had planned on connecting the pair of subs as follows:

1 balanced output from the LFE channel to each of the subs (my processor the Anthem D1 has 2 balanced mono outputs). Connection between my stereo preamp to the balanced inputs of each sub using an adaptor. I just noticed in the manual that it said not to do that. Is it really a no-no? If I take the unbalanced output from my stereo preamp into the unbalanced output of the sub will it sum the balanced and unbalanced inputs? The manual just says not to use both unbalanced and balanced at the same time.

Hey TheEAR,
why not hook up all 30 of your subs simultaneously?! Your organ cds will help you digest.

Manville,

thanks for your reply. It's not exactly a line conditioner per se. I'm looking at plugging everything into Equitech Balanced units which helps minimize ground loops and power line noise. I have one already and it's amazing. Thanks for the tip re: wiring the outlet. Once my dedicated lines are in I'll be sure to have the outlets wired correctly. I'm not sure where you got the info re: peaks of 30amps with the class D amplifier on the subs but I'll bet at most it's for milliseconds!
I've run most of my system except for my Krell Class A amp through a 20amp Equitech with no limiting.

I don't know why hooking up 2 sources as described would put them at any risk...can you explain? As far as the sub is concerned it's just summing the inputs whatever they are so the number of sources shouldn't matter. Perhaps it's a ground loop thing?

I'm not sure I want to have dedicated lines for each sub like TheEAR (perhaps he should be renamed TheWALLET) but I do plan on having both subs and a tv on a 20amp circuit so I just wanted an idea of power consumption. Most products give you a typical rating (e.g. my tv is 350watts, my other sub is 600 watts etc...) so I wanted to make sure I was at least in the ballpark. The Fathoms have class d amps so they should be a lot more efficient than some of the stuff I have.

Let me clarify the 2 sources into the sub thing. I use an Anthem D1 for home theater and I run the front speaker line level outputs through the theater bypass inputs of my Krell preamp to send the front speaker signal to my main speakers which are the dedicated stereo speakers and also the fronts in the home theater setup. I was planning on using the subs in conjunction with each front speaker while listening to the stereo, and via LFE input for the movies. Therefore, there will be 2 sources hooked up to the subs but when watching movies both the Anthem and the Krell will have to be on. I may have to rethink my plan because it is somewhat flawed - both the lfe and the bass from the fronts will go into the sub which may not be optimal and which will also depend on the crossover setting on the sub. I'll try them when they come and then decide how best to do things but thanks for the info from the engineers.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

1/3 octave or what? In manual mode, each of the 8 filters can be moved in finer than 1/3octave increments and the Q of each can be adjusted. Auto/default mode is not the best way to use it and, imho, should only be used if you cannot connect an video monitor. It is more flexible and capable than the single band in the JL.

That said, the single band PEQ of the JL may be pretty much all that is needed and it was in my main room, as confirmed by TEF (and SMS-1!) measurements.

As I understand it, 1/3 steps in the defined frequency range (15Hz - 199Hz for software 2.1 and 5Hz - 199Hz for software 2.12). You can recenter the graphic control to a given frequency but the curve painted on the display does not show the frequency between the 1/3 steps.

In others words the slope between 1/3 steps is smoothed from step to step (points on a graph) and will not show a spike or dip or flat line in between. Think of it as a sampling frequency. If it were done in 1/12 steps you would have higher resolution and more accurate placement of the "slider" in manual.

EDIT: While I can't find any reference in the SMS-1 manual or Velodynes brochures, I would assume the 1/3 steps to be ISO centered frequencies inside the given frequency range.

Ah. So you are referring to the display. While that's true, it is remarkably effective and useful. Higher resolution displays do show more but I have found that they don't get you much more correction in practice. Remember that very narrow peaks/nulls are very often highly position sensitive and not usefully corrected.

sorry, I thought it was obvious I was joking. I don't know what a Sizzouf is?
Who said I hated you? I don't hate you, or envy you, or anything. Don't even know you...but you do seem interesting!

Seriously though, one has to wonder what 30 simultaneous subs sound like?!
From what I've read, 4 well placed subs will give a great experience in most rectangular listening rooms (there's a great article on the internet about an experiment with different numbers of subs and the results show that 4 are good)

Do you have a list of your gear, including subs? I think you wrote somewhere that it would take too long to write - what's your main stuff?

Back on topic...thanks to reviews by Kal Rubinson, this forum, and Hometheatersound, I'm gonna jump in and get a pair of the F113s. I'd been holding out for a pair of the ATC C6 subs to match my ATC setup but they cost way more and haven't heard or seen them yet. Maybe I'll take the money saved and buy another pair of F113s!!!!

Can't wait to crack a few dvds like WOTW, Incredibles, LOTR etc.. when the subs come!

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson...That said, the single band PEQ of the JL may be pretty much all that is needed and it was in my main room, as confirmed by TEF (and SMS-1!) measurements.

Correct. Which was, in effect, my original statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b curryIf you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Kal makes a very profound point here.... that going after minor response deviations is not always useful outside of the specific point in space where the mic. is placed. It can actually detract from performance in the seats adjacent to the main seat and even in the main seat if the head position shifts up or down or side to side a bit. By far the most important thing is dealing with the primary room mode in an effective manner... that is 90% of the benefit of room optimization and it will improve performance in and around the primary seat.

In other words... While you may be able to get a measurably smoother response for a given mic position with more bands of eq, the audible benefits of correcting smaller errors are orders of magnitude less significant than the primary mode correction and can in fact compromise response in adjacent seats.

Another point is that when you use aggressive boosting to try and correct a null or a lack of extension, you are chasing your tail and possibly compromising the dynamic capabilities of the system with real program material. It's really impossible to correct a severe null by boosting EQ and attempting to do so is detrimental to sound quality. In other cases, the subwoofer might have built-in HP filtering for a darned good reason and you are trying to fight that filter with the correction. For example, stacking a bunch of filters at 20 Hz and boosting them each by 6dB results in 18dB of boost (demanding 64x the power at that frequency) and can create tremendous stress and increased distortion due to amp clipping, thermal compression of the driver, mechanical distress, etc. If your sub is servo controlled this will limit itself but you are still introducing severe non-linearities into the equation.

In practice, the highly adaptive parametric filter in the A.R.O. system will achieve excellent response in and around the primary seat in almost any room. That being said, a careful and thoughtful calibration with a product like the SMS-1 can improve things... but a careless one can make things worse. Not trying to scare anyone here, just pointing out that eq is to be treated with care and respect and requires an understanding of what is happening when you move the sliders.

I know you were joking,Sizzouf is a member who likes to potshot me with nonsense and is mistaking me for Jack the Ripper or something!

Well yes my list of gear is way too big,take over ten years of buying audio at an alarming rate. Bad I tell you,it is clutter there is so much. Krell,SimAudio Moon, Bryston,Dynaudio,Totem,Anthem,PS Audio and loads of other makes.

Anyway back to JL subs,I am serious about four JL subs,I want to take the next step in subsonic performance. Not that one is lacking much here. By Christmas I should have them home,as I will have two weeks vaccation.

Talking about the ARO it works great,Velodyne's SMS is great when used with moderation and common sense,as it is very easy to stress any sub with to much boost applied where the sub falls off.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.

The 30A situation would only occur with steady-state tones (sine waves) at certain frequencies and at full gonzo output and would probably trip a breaker after a few seconds. You are absolutely correct that when we look at current ratings of a circuit you have to consider the time dimension. A 15A circuit can deliver well over 15A (your refrigerator draws a ton of current when the compressor kicks in, for example) but as long as the average current is below that 15A you are ok.

The amplifier in the Fathoms is 80% efficient, meaning that to produce 2500W it uses 3000W, to produce 80W it uses 100W, etc.... the duration of high energy demands with any listening material is very short and does not present any problems in practice. Also, it is important to note that throughout most of the driver's impedance curve, the impedance is higher than 3 ohms so the amp will produce less power for the same voltage into the driver, and demand less power from the wall accordingly.

One way to look at it is to monitor voltage sag in the AC circuit. We ran some measurements of this when we did our full-output SPL tests on the f113 and at no time did the line voltage at the sub's power cord drop below 111V with seriously demanding sine-sweeps. The biggest drop occured when generating 119.2 dB (ground plane at 2m) at 80 Hz. In the "meat" of the sub-bass between 31 and 50 Hz the line voltage remained above 115V with SPL levels in the 120dB region. At 20 Hz, it sagged to 112.6V with 108.8dB of output... With real HT material the line voltage rarely drops more than 2 volts during heavy demand segments, so its really not a problem, even with two Fathoms on one circuit. I wouldn't run two Gothams on one circuit, though. '

As for your Equitech units.... try the Fathoms without them first... we put a lot of effort into filtering and noise mitigation and I really don't think you will need them. The less that exists between the Fathom's power supply and the AC circuit, the better.

As for the two sources into one Fathom issue, I'll look into that further.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bogg

Hey TheEAR,
why not hook up all 30 of your subs simultaneously?! Your organ cds will help you digest.

Manville,

thanks for your reply. It's not exactly a line conditioner per se. I'm looking at plugging everything into Equitech Balanced units which helps minimize ground loops and power line noise. I have one already and it's amazing. Thanks for the tip re: wiring the outlet. Once my dedicated lines are in I'll be sure to have the outlets wired correctly. I'm not sure where you got the info re: peaks of 30amps with the class D amplifier on the subs but I'll bet at most it's for milliseconds!
I've run most of my system except for my Krell Class A amp through a 20amp Equitech with no limiting.

I don't know why hooking up 2 sources as described would put them at any risk...can you explain? As far as the sub is concerned it's just summing the inputs whatever they are so the number of sources shouldn't matter. Perhaps it's a ground loop thing?

I'm not sure I want to have dedicated lines for each sub like TheEAR (perhaps he should be renamed TheWALLET) but I do plan on having both subs and a tv on a 20amp circuit so I just wanted an idea of power consumption. Most products give you a typical rating (e.g. my tv is 350watts, my other sub is 600 watts etc...) so I wanted to make sure I was at least in the ballpark. The Fathoms have class d amps so they should be a lot more efficient than some of the stuff I have.

Let me clarify the 2 sources into the sub thing. I use an Anthem D1 for home theater and I run the front speaker line level outputs through the theater bypass inputs of my Krell preamp to send the front speaker signal to my main speakers which are the dedicated stereo speakers and also the fronts in the home theater setup. I was planning on using the subs in conjunction with each front speaker while listening to the stereo, and via LFE input for the movies. Therefore, there will be 2 sources hooked up to the subs but when watching movies both the Anthem and the Krell will have to be on. I may have to rethink my plan because it is somewhat flawed - both the lfe and the bass from the fronts will go into the sub which may not be optimal and which will also depend on the crossover setting on the sub. I'll try them when they come and then decide how best to do things but thanks for the info from the engineers.

Which is potentially a better approach for music playback in a large room:
2 Fathoms F112s operating in stereo mode or 1 Fathom F113 operating in mono?

Probably two in mono connected in master/slave mode with A.R.O. correction. I know many people swear by the stereo subwoofer approach for two-channel audio, but in my experience I have gotten better performance in mono with the two subs placed carefully to average out room modes. Your mileage may vary and you can try it either way.

The biggest drop occured when generating 125.5 dB (ground plane at 2m) at 80 Hz. In the "meat" of the sub-bass between 31 and 50 Hz the line voltage remained above 115V with SPL levels in the 125dB region. At 20 Hz, it sagged to 109V with 114dB of output... With real HT material the line voltage rarely drops more than 2 volts during heavy demand segments, so its really not a problem, even with two Fathoms on one circuit. I wouldn't run two Gothams on one circuit, though. '

Are you serious, a single fathom f113 can put out 114db at 20hz????!!!! Holy cow, if that's true then stop the press! Drooling foolishly right now.

Quote:

As for your Equitech units.... try the Fathoms without them first... we put a lot of effort into filtering and noise mitigation and I really don't think you will need them. The less that exists between the Fathom's power supply and the AC circuit, the better.

My understanding with products like the Equitech etc... is that there is less "resistance" to providing the power to the product attached to it so that there is less likely to be voltage drop with rapid transients etc..., kind of like a buffer. Anyway, I'll try it both ways.