My God. Am I the only American on the list who is still proud of
his country? Is no one from the rest of the world willing to at
least toast our success?

Am I reading too much into this or is it that the American people
are embarrised or ashamed? Too polite to disagree with happyness
in another year of the USA?

I fully understand that the US has done many, many horrible
things to other people, but I defy anyone to show me a country
that hasn't. Power corrupts. Deal with it. I'm still enough of a
red blooded American Animal to be proud to be part of the biggest
(you know what I mean), freeist nation in the world. I still
think we help more than we hurt, and we should be PROUD of it.

A nation rich enough that one of our universities can afford to
pay the (substantial) bandwidth bill for this list and one of its
citizens is allowed to squander his money on the bandwith for the
accompanying site. Not to mention where Microchip is from.

I'm proud of other countries as well. Mexico has made major
strides in reduceing political corruption in recient years, the
Brits have finally pulled out of the last of their foreign empire
(or is there more territory after Hong Kong?) and the Asian's are
starting to pull out of the economic hole they were in. We have
been graced on this list with people who are the excellent
product of most every country around the world. I'm happy to
occupy the earth with most people and I'll tip my hat to you.

If you have a problem with my country, tell me what it is. That
is what [OT]: is for (among other things) and if you can't do it
politely, without hate, do it off the list, via private email.

Well, I for one have only a few problems with the US. Mostly, they are only
very minor annoyances that come from living north of there.

I may have some facts slightly wrong here, but this is, in general,
approximately correct.

For instance: First there were the soft wood lumber disputes, then when
California started to hit an energy crisis, B.C. (a Canadian province) was
kind enough to sell energy to them. Now, California has refused to pay for
the energy they bought, and gone to the US supreme court to demand that they
not be required to pay for their energy. And all through this, while there
have been major tarrifs placed on Canadian goods, Canadian companies have
continued to be injured in various ways by similar occurences. But we're
still sending energy south. We aren't getting paid, but it's still going
down there.

I don't think that's fair to us.

But the one thing that really annoys me is that the companies in the US are
willing to pay enough that the best minds in Canada tend to go to the US.
Up here, it's called the "Brain Drain" It's a corollary of Murphy's law: We
can't win because the companies in the US are able to pay our people more.

But in general, I think we're pretty good, friendly neighbors. Together we
could do some real good for the world. But in general we aren't recognized.
As far as I know, most American maps end at the 49th parallel. In fact, in
an old game called "Jet fighter" If you flew far enough north, you'd find
ocean, not Canada. In Canada, maps in general extend a few to a few hundred
miles below the border.

I just wish that the American spelling and pronunciation would stay in the
US.

It's "zed" not "zee" $%&* it!!
And, "all y'all" is not the plural of "y'all" which is not the plural of
"you"

Feel free to ignore any of that you want to. I think I've remained polite
and without hatred.

There are many of us working toward the cause a grain of sand at a time. We
are at war and sometimes the idle chatter only tends to desensitize us to
the matters at hand. The US population in general is pretty mad right now.

Are you aware the Oslo accord freed a convicted terrorist from an Israeli
jail to permit him to be a pilot in the 911 attack? And the networks have
been careful to avoid the subject. Why?

The Fox TV network bans the display of any jewelry or such that promotes
American Patriotism. Take your money back down under Mr. M. , we don't need
you.

Are you aware of the expense we are incurring over the Taliban prisoners?

Now the world is bitching about friendly fire causalities. War leads to such
misfortune. Get used to it, and help get it over. We want our troops back
home.

Are you aware that our corporate leaders are mimicking the pillage of our
citizens like the Warlords of history?

Are you aware of the economic influence the Muslim world has in our country?

You bet I am proud, but we are in some very troubling times. All of a sudden
our religious values are under attack as well.

We may well be on the edge of anarchy.

Happy birthday USA, and rest assured we will fight to extinction for you if
the need arises.
If your religious beliefs are in conflict with the traditional American mix
I suggest you either adjust or leave the Birthday party.

It is a somber party here in America's Heartland.

I hope you do not find this too offensive for the list. I am sure that PIC
microprocessors of great interest to the terrorists. I am also certain that
there are many of them among us.

May God have mercy on the innocent.

Yes, MIT is doing wonderful things for all of us Nerds nowadays. But let's
not bring up past policies, especially about admissions. Making the courses
available to all (free!) online really will help us all. I certainly cannot
qualify to through the first stone.

"My God. Am I the only American on the list who is
still proud of his country? Is no one from the
rest of the world willing to at least toast our
success?"

Me - I am DAMN PROUD too, the US having been the aresnal
for democracy in the world for quite some time now and
MORE than willing to send her SONS and now her *daughters*
to DIE in foreign lands - but until now I've been busy
working and unable to join in this fray ...

You missed noting that wherever the crisis or the conflict that Canada and
the Canadian citizens treat us like family lending whatever support they
can. Unfortunately, Our government is getting as harsh on our allies as they
are on our citizens.

Sometimes I just cannot understand
why the U.S. need to get itself involved
in conflicts such as the Middle East.

Why not just leave it to the United Nations,
instead of vetoing most of the resolutions
from the UN security council.

I said this because I'm a non-muslim living
in a multi-racial, multi-religioun country
whose official state religion is Islam.
Still, we practiced democrary to a certain
extent and everyone is free to practice their
own religion and pursue economic success.

U.S. big bullying action (depends on whose
opinion you seek) is causing a lot of anger
among the muslim population, it is no wonder
it attracts a lot of nut-case terrorist.
Still my condolences on the 911 happening,
terrorist action are tools of the incompetent
and should never be condone.

One thing that can be noticed is that everytime
U.S. goes to war, it will be followed by an
economic boom. So not sure there's is a
correlation there.. ?

> James Newton wrote:
>
> "My God. Am I the only American on the list who is
> still proud of his country? Is no one from the
> rest of the world willing to at least toast our
> success?"
>
> Me - I am DAMN PROUD too, the US having been the aresnal
> for democracy in the world for quite some time now and
> MORE than willing to send her SONS and now her *daughters*
> to DIE in foreign lands - but until now I've been busy
> working and unable to join in this fray ...
>
> World, if you have a bona-fide problem give us (the U.S)
> a call.

Um - sometimes one should perhaps not press others too hard to join in one's
self congratulations when one is having a bout of entirely justified
patriotic fervour. Better to do it perhaps when one is not quite so hyped up
by the joyousness of the occasion. However, seeing the question HAS been
asked and then a reply (sort of) demanded -

Yes, from down here in NZ the majority (including me) wish you well, are
pleased with what in sum total you add to the world and hope that you all
(y'all ?) will long continue as a bastion and supporter of a flavour of
democracy.

And also, many (me included) are somewhat less than 100% enthusiastic about
all the ways you go about fulfilling your mandate, are occasionally somewhat
(is that gentle enough?) doubtful that the means used are quite the best
that could have been used or the decisions quite those most likely to match
the reasons given for them, or that the open-ness and honesty when things go
wrong (like last week in Afghanistan) are quite as open and honest as may be
desirable.

For myself, I'm a friend of the US and what it stands for, and as a friend
I'm keen to see it continue to mature and grow in self discipline and
genuine disinterested interest in the affairs of the world. Which means that
I'm not in the cheering line on every single occasion and I often enough
find fault (even if I don't yell it out loud on this list or any other on
every such occasion) with how it does things or why or why not. May God
indeed continue to bless America and make and keep it great and may it
continue to subscribe to the ideals and grow into which caused it to come
into existence in the first place.

I think I should not mess with this subject :-) American patriotism is
one of the things that made your country the giant that it is nowadays. You
have many reasons to be proud but also a few to fell ashamed. Not ashamed of
being americans, not at all, but ashamed for not knowing of what happened or
worse, of not carying about it because it was not close to you.

> I fully understand that the US has done many, many horrible
> things to other people, but I defy anyone to show me a country
> that hasn't. Power corrupts. Deal with it. I'm still enough of a
> red blooded American Animal to be proud to be part of the biggest
> (you know what I mean), freeist nation in the world. I still
> think we help more than we hurt, and we should be PROUD of it.

America external trade policy is really pretty bad and Mr. Bush is
making it worse. Your government bans and taxes any products that you can't
produce economically. That is a common policy but very destructive in the
long term because you end up having old industries that do not modernize
themselves because they have the government to protect them. One clear
example is the over taxes for stell from other countries. You really should
take a look at that theme, it is amazing what the Bush administration is
doing in that area !

> If you have a problem with my country, tell me what it is. That
> is what [OT]: is for (among other things) and if you can't do it
> politely, without hate, do it off the list, via private email.

I love the USA for what it stands and have made the pledge to your flag
while I went to school there with real proudnees for a country that was not
my own but american people should really try to take a look at what happens
in the World and what extorsive external politics are doing to other
countries. You have a power that can destroy other nations and it is used
many more times than what appears in CNN !! My only problem with your
country is exactly what is unkown by your people. The information is all
censored by the big TV's and journals ! You just see one side of the problem
most of the time. American people should be aware of the responsability that
you have over the World and over your own country. What is happening at the
middle east is absurd and because of financial interests nothing can be
done.

Please do not take this message as a rant over the US. It is not. I
really like your country and have a family that had me with them for a while
and that I call, even after 20 years, "mom" and "dad". The only thing this
message is trying to say is that american people should take more time to
understand that the World is getting smaller each day and that you should
take more time to really understand what happens at other countries and how
that can affect you in the present and specially in the future.

How many sons and daughters has NZ lost in the
two great World Wars and various conflicts since RM?

I have had a chance to see the after-effects first-hand
what war does to people - as my Dad worked at a VA
Hospital (Veterans Administration Hospital - where
those who didn't die in the wars go *if* they can't
make it in society due to mental or physical conditions).
When I was growing up there were vets there from WWII
and the Korean conflcit. Later men from the Vietnam
conflict arrived ...

There is no country on the face of this earth that
has contributed more in the way of these men (and
material) in the attempt at liberating men's minds
and bodies from tyranny - whether it was Hitler or
the communists in the form of the various Soviet
leaders (whom history records as having killed of
Millions).

We are also (from what I read and see) the BIGGEST
donor of aid from charitable NGO's (non-gov organiza-
tions) organizations in the world.

And WHY do we do it? Because, in our founding documemts
(like the Declaration of Independence) we declare that
our rights extend from God and not simply from some
tyrant that lineage has decreed is to be our ruling
sovereign ...

So we just *naturally* extend this 'opportunity' to any
and all that express an interest and that they would
like to taste, exercise and embrace their God-given
rights and the freedom to live one's life as we *have
fought* to do.

I let *all* of our record stand - as long as the the
above is part of the record of testimony ...

I should *also* mention (I kind of assume that everyone
knows this!) that the citizenry of the US is and has
been made up of people's from all around the world
that came in search of something else - whether it
was to flee tryranny or a famine - they came seeking
relief from that which 'afflicted' them where they
were previously.

The USA's progress is a direct result of those new
immigrants and their children enjoying the freedomn
to do their best - and to invent and discover and
innovate at their own pace without direct fear of
the whip!

And don't get me wrong - the USA is surely not a
'finished work' either to be held high on a pedastal
as the 'ultimate ideal' either. But I think (and I
believe) that we have worked in the past several
centuries to build the right foundation upon which
to form a means 'to govern the affairs of men'.
But there is a down side to this, for any attempt to
govern will have it's greasy, seemy underside where
the 'work' must finally get done, where the rubber
necessarily meets the road and HARD decisions HAVE
to get made - so in closing I quote Churchill:

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form
of government except all the others that have been
tried."

Sorry to add to this, but I must. There are two sides to every
conflict. Sure we (the US) are preserving our best interests when we get
involved in foreign matters, but what makes that ok in my mind is that it
is we usually side with the most civilized and humane
party. Unfortunately, without us the UN would not have the ability to do
anything. It would be nice if we could ignore the rest of the world, but
that is just not possible. If your neighbor drives their car drunk all the
time you can ignore it or attempt to stop them. If you ignore it your
child or your friends child may be in front of that car some day. What
makes me proud to be an American is that it is not only my child that I am
concerned about. The world is more and more like a big neighborhood every
day. To me freedom rules and it seems every country we have a problem with
does not understand what it means to really be free.

>Hi,
>
> I'm from a country in Asia Pacific.
>
> Sometimes I just cannot understand
> why the U.S. need to get itself involved
> in conflicts such as the Middle East.
>
> Why not just leave it to the United Nations,
> instead of vetoing most of the resolutions
> from the UN security council.
>
> I said this because I'm a non-muslim living
> in a multi-racial, multi-religioun country
> whose official state religion is Islam.
> Still, we practiced democrary to a certain
> extent and everyone is free to practice their
> own religion and pursue economic success.
>
> U.S. big bullying action (depends on whose
> opinion you seek) is causing a lot of anger
> among the muslim population, it is no wonder
> it attracts a lot of nut-case terrorist.
> Still my condolences on the 911 happening,
> terrorist action are tools of the incompetent
> and should never be condone.
>
> One thing that can be noticed is that everytime
> U.S. goes to war, it will be followed by an
> economic boom. So not sure there's is a
> correlation there.. ?
>
>Just my 2 cents,
>Peter
>

> My God. Am I the only American on the list who is still proud of
> his country? Is no one from the rest of the world willing to at
> least toast our success?
>
> Am I reading too much into this or is it that the American people
> are embarrised or ashamed? Too polite to disagree with happyness
> in another year of the USA?
>
> James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3

I am just a little perplexed. Why is an exhortation like this being made
in the PICList. I subscribe to several lists, and correspond with many
others - and feel absolutely no inclination to contact all and sundry via
any communication channel about this.

Admittedly, I reside in Australia. But I certainly wouldn't expect anyone
to post anything about Australia Day on the 26th Jan. on this list.

Be as patriotic as you wish. But please remember that this doesn't mean
that everone else has to be similarly patriotic. I personally would rather
live here than in the US (for reasons that I won't go into here) but thats
just *my* view.

And I guess thats what prompted me to write this... Not everybody *does*
think that the US is unequivocally, absolutely, without doubt, the best
country on Earth. *I'm* not saying I know its not!. But I am saying one
has to know a helluva lot to be able to make such a claim. And I can't see
any excuse for thinking its ok to virtually go round ramming this idea down
other peoples throats. By all means, [OT] something about this, but
really, do you think you've got the right to insist that everyone else
should? Especially here?

Well, I have to say this has remained remarkably civilized. I'll try not
to change that.

On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Peter Tiang wrote:

> Sometimes I just cannot understand
> why the U.S. need to get itself involved
> in conflicts such as the Middle East.

Better to get involved early, while the problem is more manageable and can
be handled away from our shores, for one thing. Why wait until some
missile-toting idiot manages to overrun half the world before stepping in
to stop him? We learned that lesson in the 1940's. We may seem a little
thick at times, but we do try to learn from our own mistakes. "We don't
repeat the same mistakes, we invent all new ones!"

Personally, I think we're stepping on land mines of our own manufacture
every time we turn around in some areas of the world. I don't always
agree with our policy everywhere, but it's at worst no worse than before
we got there, and at best significantly better. Even in Afghanistan, the
noncombatant population has suffered fewer collateral fatalities than they
would have under Taliban rule in the same period. There's even a chance
the country may return to modern civilization, given enough US assistance.

> Why not just leave it to the United Nations,
> instead of vetoing most of the resolutions
> from the UN security council.

If you'll take the time to look, you'll find that usually it *is* a UN
action that drags US troops in as the primary method of accomplishing the
UN's mission. Who do you think provides the vast majority of troops and
equipment to the UN?

> U.S. big bullying action (depends on whose
> opinion you seek) is causing a lot of anger
> among the muslim population, it is no wonder
> it attracts a lot of nut-case terrorist.

US bullying? State imposed religion, genocide, repression of entire
populations, forced labor, violent conquest of neighboring countries...
THERE's your bullying. If despots, madmen and tin-pot dictators are
pissed at the US, I see that as a positive sign that we're doing something
right.

> One thing that can be noticed is that everytime
> U.S. goes to war, it will be followed by an
> economic boom. So not sure there's is a
> correlation there.. ?

> Sorry to add to this, but I must. There are two sides to every
> conflict. Sure we (the US) are preserving our best interests when we get
> involved in foreign matters, but what makes that ok in my mind is that it
> is we usually side with the most civilized and humane
> party. Unfortunately, without us the UN would not have the ability to do
> anything.

This is exactly the problem here.

There's a fine line between being the hero of
the day and being a tyrant.

> It would be nice if we could ignore the rest of the world, but
> that is just not possible. If your neighbor drives their car drunk all
the
> time you can ignore it or attempt to stop them. If you ignore it your
> child or your friends child may be in front of that car some day. What
> makes me proud to be an American is that it is not only my child that I am
> concerned about. The world is more and more like a big neighborhood every
> day.

I agree, but there more than one person
(or country) living in the neighborhood, right ?

Is it possible to work within the framework
of the U.N. (analogous to a neighborhood committee) ?
Instead of one person dictates and the others
had to follow ?

Is'nt this what democracy is all about ?

> To me freedom rules and it seems every country we have a problem with
> does not understand what it means to really be free.

Freedom is a relative thing, you have to understand
the local culture and religious beliefs in order
to enjoy our differing flavors of "freedom".
"Freedom" to one is easily "Anarchy" to another.

First of all, I only present my view (from half-way
across the globe) bcoz James Newton had to foresight
to ask for opinions for or against the U.S.
as you celebrate the birth of your nation.

I can't say my view is in the majority, but it
represents a view of a "moderate", I believe.

> If you'll take the time to look, you'll find that usually it *is* a UN
> action that drags US troops in as the primary method of accomplishing the
> UN's mission. Who do you think provides the vast majority of troops and
> equipment to the UN?
>

On the Bosnia issue and most of the conflict
around the globe, I think most of the world
support you as it is on a U.N. mandate.

No doubt the U.S. have the resources to be
the major contributor of UN peacekeeping forces.
Heck, even my small country with our miniscule
GDP contributed to the peacekeeping force in Bosnia.

But take a look at the Israel-Palestine case,
it is a world apart.

U.S. consistently vetoed suggestions to put
U.N. peacekeeping force into what is essentially
a killing field, ignoring advises even from
your traditional allies.

> I am sure that PICmicroprocessors of great
>interest to the terrorists. I am also certain that
> there are many of them among us.

"many" is incorrect, I think. "Everyone" would be
correct. Cause it is not rationally to use engineers
as end-point terrorist, terror bosses would rather
hire an engineer. Have you ever asked your boss
if he is a terrorist? According to your logic, it seems,
Boeng is a big terror organisation.

And what? Can you fix someone's problem? Or,
have you bug-free version of your country? :-)

US nation is the nation of immigrants. Many millions
of them came from my region for past two centuries.
Thank to god they had this choice.
As for me, I'd rather prefer also to have a choice between
even non bug-free things, then to stick for the hole
life to certain absolutely fair totalitarian religion or ideology.
Fearing permanently to death, not to say or even not to think
something, that may be treated as injurious thoughts.
But there are a lot of people, who definitely prefer
strong determinism of totalitarian religions or ideologies.
They are raised so, that it is a big pain for them, when
they need to think about anything.
Imaging, for years you deal only with discrete
components and sometimes with simplest PICs
(Aren't we at PICList now? :-). And one day you are get
faced to real world with all this TSQL languages, .NET
frames, n-tier things, big 90n process SPLDs and FPGAs
and so on. Naturally, many of us would say: We needn't
this f..king freedom. All we need is "Best small windows
developer platform". Long live Embeded World Dictator!

Pete S wrote:
> > Am I reading too much into this or is it that the American people
> > are embarrised or ashamed? Too polite to disagree with happyness
> > in another year of the USA?
> >
> > James Newton: PICList.com webmaster, former Admin #3
>
> I am just a little perplexed. Why is an exhortation like this being
made
> in the PICList. I subscribe to several lists, and correspond with
many
> others - and feel absolutely no inclination to contact all and sundry
via
> any communication channel about this.
>

You may switch off your [OT]: tag. You may pay him for
for non showing his patriotic feelings, if he agreed, of course.
You may hide your head in sand, like ostrich. Your are free,
thanks to God and Uncle Sam.
I undestand you, You are so proud of your country that
you feel uncomfortable, when it happened, that someone
also feels so but with diferent country.
In general, teaching him(Admin) about List rules is a waste
of time, by definition. We may only ask Admin in very conjunctive
mood, if we realy want to get a result. He is free, thanks to
previously mentioned.

I went back and read what I'd written to see if I would reasonably expect
such a response. I suggest you have another look at what I said. As I
noted - verbatim quotes here -

I'm a friend of the US and what it stands for,
I'm keen to see it continue to mature and grow in self discipline
and genuine disinterested interest in the affairs of the world
(I & most NZers) wish you well,
... are pleased with what in sum total you add to the world
and hope that you all .. will long continue as a bastion and
supporter of a flavour of democracy.

Presumably you didn;t find fault with any of that.
It behoves a true friend to not just be a toadying yes-man but to point out
to their friend when they stray from ways ideal or when they may be
upsetting others unawares. A friend who will not do this is not worthy of
the name.

The points you raised largely dealt with the US's good deeds - ones which we
would both be largely in agreement over.

I am not, and do not ever claim to be, an expert in things US, but I suspect
that you know even less about this little nation here at the bottom of the
world. We do not have the size of the US - being 50 to 80 times smaller in
population (depending on year etc) our affect in absolute terms is
necessarily far far less. Measured in per capita terms you may be surprised.

> How many sons and daughters has NZ lost in the
> two great World Wars and various conflicts since RM?

I note you address me as "RM" which is indeed the signature I use on
flippant, brief or throwaway posts. I did not so sign myself here. Should I
take this appellation as a sign of your displeasure (as well as the clues in
the rest of your post ) ? :-)

Willingness to be involved in foreign wars can be a dubious measure of one's
merit.
However:
NZ was not born as a nation when you fought your war of secession and only
just so when you fought the war in which the US suffered the most fatalities
of any war so far. (Almost double the US losses in WW2) I doubt that we sent
troops.

We, rightly or wrongly, sent about 6,500 troops to the "Boer War" of 1899 -
1902 in South Africa to support the British. 228 NZ sons died. I don't think
the US was represented. I'm sure we thought the cause was just and in the
interests of world order & peace - I'll leave it to the historians to debate
this.

I have no comprehensive figures for WW1 but those for WW2 may surprise you.
I acknowledge the debt of world freedom to the US for their role in WW2 BUT
the cost in absolute terms was far higher for 14 other countries than for
the US ! and in relative terms was twice as high for New Zealand as for the
US and also for many other small countries. Putting it in realistic terms -
a randomly chosen NZ family was twice as likely to have had a son or father
die in WW2 than a US family.

Fatality stats at www.stokesey.demon.co.uk/wwii/casualty.html
are illuminating and dreadful.

Absolute fatalities were greater amongst the allies for Soviet Union (25M),
China (11M), Poland (6.8M), Yugoslavia (1.7M), Rumania (985k), France
(810k), Hungary (750k), Greece (520k), Czechoslovakia (400k) and Great
Britain (388k) than for the US (295k). These figures are probably about as
accurate as can reasonably be arrived at. Note that UK absolute fatalities
exceeded those for the US - the US paid a higher price financially than the
British but not in sons and daughters.

Re WW1 - Google up "Gallipoli ANZAC" to see the terrible price paid by NZ
son's - and their families in World War 1 in a misguided and badly executed
plan to take the heights overlooking the Bosporous.

Note that the Soviet Union was, regardless of the evils of Stalin, THE great
opponent of Nazi Germany for a very large part of the war (and their ally
initially!). The Soviet Union lost 25 MILLION lives fighting Germany - over
8,000% (yes - 80 times) higher than the lives lost by the US (- over 25
million fatalities compared to 295.000 for the USA. By noting these facts I
do not wish to diminish the role of the US, which was absolutely pivotal,
but to note that MANY other nations played a very very very great part at
very great cost to themselves. (2/3 of the Soviet losses were civilians. 1
(or 6 according to this sitehttp://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/jbb.htm) of the US losses was,
strictly speaking, civilian. (Killed by a Japanese balloon bomb)). (Another
site http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/fugo.htm )

New Zealand has, rightly or wrongly, been represented in wars alongside the
US in Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait/Iraq and, at this moment, Afghanistan. Did you
know that?

New Zealand was THE first country in the world to declare war against Nazi
Germany (followed within a day by Britain, Australia, Canada and France.

If you want to see how much this small country was prepared, rightly or
wrongly, to "do it's bit" internationally compared to the US look at the
dates of the sinking of the Lusitania (WW1) and Pearl Harbour (WW2) and the
dates of US entry into each of these conflicts and reflect about why the US
did what it did and what it would have done if either of these "events" had
not occurred. Historians will debate this as long as they exist. It has been
alleged, with some justification, that both these events were engineered to
force the US to enter each of the wars concerned (the latter allegedly BY
the US President and his right hand man).

Great Britain, for what it's worth, declared war against Japan after Pearl
Harbour BEFORE the US did.

> I have had a chance to see the after-effects first-hand
> what war does to people - as my Dad worked at a VA
> Hospital (Veterans Administration Hospital - where
> those who didn't die in the wars go *if* they can't
> make it in society due to mental or physical conditions).
> When I was growing up there were vets there from WWII
> and the Korean conflcit. Later men from the Vietnam
> conflict arrived ...

I have had less of a chance. My father and an Uncle went overseas in WW2
(Father saw no combat -war ended.)
My Grandfather was a WW1 rifleman. I knew a Vietnam vet here. Vietnam
involvement here was voluntary for members of standing armed forces - how
many US volunteers would have gone to Vietnam? (rightly or wrongly).
(Recall: Hell no, we won't go, Hey Hey LBJ ..., but I didn't inhale
...)(Don't take that wrongly - but do remember the general national attitude
back then.)

> There is no country on the face of this earth that
> has contributed more in the way of these men (and
> material) in the attempt at liberating men's minds
> and bodies from tyranny - whether it was Hitler or
> the communists in the form of the various Soviet
> leaders (whom history records as having killed of
> Millions).

A quick plug for the daughters & sons of Mother Russia (actually Soviet
Union) . Do not blame Russia's sons & daughters for her leaders. Surely many
have followed wrongly but the great evils were driven by the very few. When
Hitler fought Russia the common people had to fear their own leaders AND the
Nazi threat. The sons & daighters of Russia gave far more and suffreed far
more from Hitler than the US ever has in any external war. You would have to
go back to the US civil war to see similar US suffering at home. Regardless
of the privations of wartime conditions and the loss of loved ones, one
cannot compare what the US went through with what the Russian people
suffered for the cause of freedom.

> We are also (from what I read and see) the BIGGEST
> donor of aid from charitable NGO's (non-gov organiza-
> tions) organizations in the world.

That may well be true. I genuinely hope it is. Is this true on both an
absolute AND a per capita basis? (I hope so).

> And WHY do we do it? Because, in our founding documemts
> (like the Declaration of Independence) we declare that
> our rights extend from God and not simply from some
> tyrant that lineage has decreed is to be our ruling
> sovereign ...

We could almost get political on this :-).
But I'll try not to.
Note first that as a committed Cristian I wholeheartedly support the
expressions of divine motivation and guidance found in the US constitution
and other documents.
I note in passing that a certain 9th circuit US judge would have had it
expressed otherwise but I understand that he has, and I'm pleased, changed
his mind already.
It is worth noting that the tyranny of kings was held by almost all to be a
God given right - to robustly & safely say that the US leadership was God
given, but that Royal appointment was not, one would have to have a
confident grasp of history far beyond mine.

> So we just *naturally* extend this 'opportunity' to any
> and all that express an interest and that they would
> like to taste, exercise and embrace their God-given
> rights and the freedom to live one's life as we *have
> fought* to do.
>
> I let *all* of our record stand - as long as the the
> above is part of the record of testimony ...

And finally this is where the real detail begins and where I'm going to
(fairly soon :-) ) stop.
Most have no complaints with the good that the US does.
But the record contains much else.
As a gentle nudge in the ":right" direction, consider this. Does the term
"pork barrel politics" have any real justification in the US internal
system - Is there any truth that political influence and expediency is a
major factor in where money is spent, who gets a particular new plant or
industrial facility or government contract. Are all decisions made in the
interests of the genuine majority or has human nature got a strong hold on
the system?
If, just possibly, you feel that the internal reasons for doing things,
continuing or stopping a particular project etc etc WITHIN the US are not
done fairly or logically or equitably or ...., then why would one expect
things to be done differently externally?
I understand that M Condoleezza Rice is on record as saying that essentially
the reason things are done by the US in the world is US self interest and
that if there's nothing in it for the US then why do it?
Surely SOME US external actions seem to be driven by pure motives (as well
as can be seen from way down here). Even a degree of self interest is
entirely acceptable. Somalia seemed to me (in my blissful ignorance) to be
an example of attempted humanitarian assistance. Similarly US involvement in
Grenada - even though it was obviously in US interests to have a supportive
government there, the main aim seemed (perhaps in my naivety) to be based
largely on philanthropic merit.
Other cases become greyer. eg Iraq/Kuwait/Desert Storm. I am satisfied about
the improperness of the Iraqi action and that the world should not allow
such things to happen but the layers of murkiness about motivations etc when
compared to equally appealing or apalling "opportunities" elsewhere make one
wonder. Oil is a great motivator. US friendship with the house of Saud is
understandable but seems to be a case of supporting the rather bad devil you
know rather than ... The correlation between US interestes and US actions
seems high. There is no internationala law that says the US SHOULD be the
policeman/woman of the world and NOT correlate its actions with its
interests. However, as long as there IS a strong correlation between self
interest and action then a skeptical attitude is the least one should allow
an external observer.

A measure of how well you might expect yourself to be viewed may be able to
be found by comparison with how you feel about your dealings with other
people. Regardless of what is "fair" or "moral" or "achievable" if YOU in a
dealing with someone else in which they have control of what happens, find
that YOU have been much less advantaged by the deal than they have, then YOU
are liable to be less happy than you might have been. Or worse. Still more
so if you both committed resource to the deal and they benefited far more
than you. Even worse again if you comitted all the resource and, while
benefitting, find that they benefit far more (whether in absolute or
relative terms or both). No matter if you have benefited. No matter if you
have made a profit. No matter if you have had your lot improved beyond what
it would have been before the deal took place. If you in dealing with
someone else realise that the benefit that they gain far outweighs the
benefit that you gain then you are liable to be "unhappy". In a big enough
forum this can translate to "there will be trouble" as defined by Robocop.

> I should *also* mention (I kind of assume that everyone
> knows this!) that the citizenry of the US is and has
> been made up of people's from all around the world
> that came in search of something else - whether it
> was to flee tryranny or a famine - they came seeking
> relief from that which 'afflicted' them where they
> were previously.

Yep.

> The USA's progress is a direct result of those new
> immigrants and their children enjoying the freedomn
> to do their best - and to invent and discover and
> innovate at their own pace without direct fear of
> the whip!

Yes, sort of. The whip can take other forms than a long leather weapon, but
yes, US freedom is for the most part incomparably greater than for many
other peoples. Some in the US would feel far freer than others. No amount of
fancy words about people being free to improve themselves or go to another
location or job or whatever will fool a person who is ground down to the
bottom of the social or finnacial pecking order - in the US or anywhere
else.

> And don't get me wrong - the USA is surely not a
> 'finished work' either to be held high on a pedastal
> as the 'ultimate ideal' either. But I think (and I
> believe) that we have worked in the past several
> centuries to build the right foundation upon which
> to form a means 'to govern the affairs of men'.

Yes - imperfect but a good start :-)

> But there is a down side to this, for any attempt to
> govern will have it's greasy, seemy underside where
> the 'work' must finally get done, where the rubber
> necessarily meets the road and HARD decisions HAVE
> to get made -

Freedom starts to die when it uses the tools of its enemies to protect
itself against its enemies. A difficult truth to accept. One that the US CIA
of past decades often failed to subscribe to. When making HARD decisions
means working against the freedom you seek to shore up you are on shaky
ground (or so the Boss says)(Matt 5:39)(also Ro12:17,1Th5:15,1Pe3:9)..

> so in closing I quote Churchill:
>
> "It has been said that democracy is the worst form
> of government except all the others that have been
> tried."

I'm somewhat of a student of WC. I've read much of what he wrote for general
public consumption. He was not the most ideal of men in all that he did but
he did relatively well for the world in his time. I'm happy enough with
democracy (and happier with it than most of the other forms that have been
tried). Even more so when those who practice it at home also seek to the
best of their ability to extend its benefits to those they deal with beyond
their shores who are not so blessed.

>John Ferrell wrote:
>
>> I am sure that PICmicroprocessors of great
>>interest to the terrorists. I am also certain that
>> there are many of them among us.
>
> "many" is incorrect, I think. "Everyone" would be
>correct. Cause it is not rationally to use engineers
>as end-point terrorist, terror bosses would rather
>hire an engineer. Have you ever asked your boss
>if he is a terrorist? According to your logic, it seems,
>Boeng is a big terror organisation.

Let me guess. If someone asks you to make something that walks like a
guidance system quacks like a guidance system and jumps like a guidance
system then you build it on a handshake's faith since he promised it's for
a wheelchair, right ? And you base your faith on the fact that he is
blond, blue-eyed, drives and american car with a little US flag in the
window, 'everyone knows him', and you heard he pays promptly. Right ?
<duck>

>Are you aware the Oslo accord freed a convicted terrorist from an Israeli
>jail to permit him to be a pilot in the 911 attack?
Well, if we're going to play the blame game, let's at least get the identity of the terrorist right. It was not Muhammad Atta - believed to be the mastermind behind the September attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon - who was convicted of the 1986 bombing and machine gun attack on a bus in Samaria, sentenced to life imprisonment and later released. It was Mahmoud Abed Atta, a Palestinian associated with the Abu Nidal terror organization. They are not the same person. According to the Jerusalem Post, Mahmoud Abed Atta fled to Venezuela after the bus attack but was deported to the U.S. and eventually (in 1990) extradited to Israel, where he was tried and sentenced for his crime. His subsequent release from prison, confirmed by the Israeli Justice Ministry, had nothing to do with the Oslo Accord or intervention by either the Reagan or the Clinton administration. It was the result of a finding by the Supreme Court of Israel that Abed Atta's extradition process was flawed. The freed terrorist's whereabouts are now unknown, officials say. Accounts differ on when WTC terrorist Muhammad Atta became a political activist, but in any case he was only 18 and living with his family in Cairo when the 1986 bus attack occurred. In 1992 he moved to Germany, where he met his future co-conspirators and ultimately began plotting the September 11 attacks. The Jerusalem Post attributes confusion about the identities of the two terrorists to "rumors circulating on the Internet," but in fact those rumors had their origin in erroneous press reports during the first few days after September 11.
Sources and further reading: Internet Rumors Aside, WTC Attacker Not Held by Israel
Jerusalem Post, 8 November 2001 A Case of Mistaken Identity
Anti-Defamation League, November 2001
Dennis Crawley
Argentina.http://www.geocities.com/proyectosenpic

Keep your mind cool to judge If you gonna play God!
Keep your mind very, very, very cool to pull the trigger
if you gonna "waste the #$%$#$^%^ers".

To Theories attemp to erase the big spirit of US:
"National Security" and "Side Effect"("collateral damage" or "doble effect cause", according to the moralists). There you will find the elements of why many people arround the world hate US.

The Other big thing, but nothing to do whit US(Nation as people), is the IMF.
It is a fact that they negociate with the "crap" of all "small" countries(economicaly small), They have planned all the slavery laws we have now for the past 30 years. They regulate our lives, and now they took our money, rigth earned.(City Bank, NB of Boston, etc.).

Combine these 3 elements and you will get a very-explosive-time-bomb.

I'm argentine.
40% of my blood is English-American.
I'm very sorry abt. 911
I'm very happy abt US scientific-tecnical-cultural progress.
I believe in democracy, freedom,...but I hate politics.
(I fact, your current president, is not voted by mayority!!!)

...I'm confident in american people, Happy Birthday.

...The real question is if you are confident on us.
Stop the witch hunting, let's think together.

Again
Dennis.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

I was just amazed that no other US supporters said happy birthday
to the US.

I did NOT demand that everyone agree with my feelings, I was just
shocked to find that I was apparently alone. Unlike any other
lists you may subscribe to, the piclist is really many lists. You
can turn off [OT] or the other channels if you like.

Engineers are also human and citizens of the worlds countries and
[OT] is the only place we can discuss these wide rangeing topics
among ourselves. I pushed for the topic tags because I had come
to see that the off topic discussions on the PICList were more
enlightened and mind expanding than any political, economic, or
other forum.

I've been happy to see complaints about US treatment of other
countries along with congratulations and support. We need to know
what other people think and hear the other side of the story. I'm
never convinced that the news that plays in the US is
representative of the rest of the world. We have a distinct
tendancy to be isolative, and most of us choose to watch the news
that is somewhat self serving; a fact that has not escaped the
news orginizations.

Re: Stealing power from Canada. I'm so disgusted with Grey Davis
that I will activly campaign against him in the next govenors
election for the state of California. His screw up of the power
problem and his screwing over of Canada (and Washington state)
have not gone unnoticed.

Re: Bush. God, I'm embarrised for our country. I pushed for Gore,
but I don't know that he would have been better. Bush is a moron.
His short sighted handleing of the tarrif issue with steel and
the EU has only been eclipsed by his idiotic, heavy handed
management of our involvement in the middle east. Clinton may
have been crooked as a dogs hind leg, but he was smooth... <GRIN>

These jerks only rip off our country and our fellow countries
because we don't get mad enough to stop them (speaking of us in
the US). Write your leaders and let them know that you will vote
or work against them in the next election.

>
> source=
> http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\07\06\025850a
>
> I was just amazed that no other US supporters said happy birthday
> to the US.
>
> I did NOT demand that everyone agree with my feelings, I was just
> shocked to find that I was apparently alone. Unlike any other
> lists you may subscribe to, the piclist is really many lists. You
> can turn off [OT] or the other channels if you like.
> These jerks only rip off our country and our fellow countries
> because we don't get mad enough to stop them (speaking of us in
> the US). Write your leaders and let them know that you will vote
> or work against them in the next election.

Re: Bush. God, I'm embarrised for
our country. I pushed for Gore,
but I don't know that he would have been better. Bush is a moron.
His short sighted handleing of the tarrif issue with steel and
the EU has only been eclipsed by his idiotic, heavy handed
management of our involvement in the middle east. Clinton may
have been crooked as a dogs hind leg, but he was smooth...
<GRIN>

> JAMES,
> I HAVE FOUND THAT WHEN PEOPLE FIND THEMSELVES ALONE THAT THEY ARE NOT WELL
> LIKED !

Albert,

- I personally cannot understand the point you are trying to make in this
message. When matters being discussed get somewhat emotional it is a good
idea to try hard to make sure people understand what you are saying.
(I don't always manage to do this myself, sadly :-( ).

- Perhaps you mean that you are sympathising with James because few other
people wish to join him on congratulating the USA on its 4th of July
birthday. Happily, quite a few have now done so.

- Perhaps you mean that the US finds itself alone in the world because of
its actions and that it is not well liked. I believe that the US has many
friends and often does much good in the world and is a great force for good
& freedom in world affairs.
As a young country (a mere 226 years young), while it often does well, it is
still somewhat finding its way in international maturity. In time I believe
it will attain the maturity that goes with the power that it wields.

- I assume that you weren't suggesting that nobody likes James. That would,
of course, be a really stupid suggestion. Hey, even Olin likes James ! (I
think :-) ). We (almost ?) all like James - even if some don't always agree
with eveything he says.

If what you were suggesting is important it may be a good idea to reword it
so people can understand your point clearly.

Also, two suggestions - see PS below.

regards

RM aka Russell McMahon

______________

PS: Two suggestions:

As in all lists like this one, list practice is that messages in capitals
(as your one was) convey the special meaning of "shouting" or making a
particular point very very loudly. This is usually best reserved for making
a very important point very very clear. "Shouting" unimportant or
contentious points is generally held, rightly or wrongly, to be rather rude.

Adding your name is usually a good idea - the more so if the content is
important (even though we are all usually well enough identified by our
email addresses).

James, this holiday means many things to us. In my case, I'm the son of
a Marine who fought in WWII in the Pacific and I worked the `night shift'
in Laos along the Ho Chi Minh trail during the Vietnam `war'... I have a lot
of bitter feelings about that to this day yet I consider myself patriotic
but with `conditions'...

In any case, I didn't think an international forum was a good place to
wave our flag as the holiday has no meaning to others. Except, of course,
for our friends in the UK to which I say; Hey! Wanna have a Tea Party? ;-)

Tom Handley wrote:
>
> In any case, I didn't think an international forum was a good place to
> wave our flag as the holiday has no meaning to others. Except, of course,
> for our friends in the UK to which I say; Hey! Wanna have a Tea Party? ;-)

>Cheers Tom. ;)
>
>Visiting Boston in summer time isn't bad at all ;)
>
>WBR Dmitry.
>
>
>Tom Handley wrote:
>>
>> In any case, I didn't think an international forum was a good place to
>> wave our flag as the holiday has no meaning to others. Except, of course,
>> for our friends in the UK to which I say; Hey! Wanna have a Tea Party? ;-)

> >> In any case, I didn't think an international forum was a good place
to
> >> wave our flag as the holiday has no meaning to others. Except, of
course,
> >> for our friends in the UK to which I say; Hey! Wanna have a Tea Party?
;-)
>
> I smell a joke here. What passes for tea in your parts ?

Ho. You probably need to be British or American or a member of the (Sun
never sets on the) British Empire to know what this means. A good story
though. See

Tom Handley wrote:
>
> Hey Dmitry! I had a dream that I finally made it to St. Petersburg
> and the streets were lined with caviar and the rivers flowed with
> vodka but I was stuck with a warm Bud and a cold hot dog! ;-)
> - Tom

Tom Handley wrote:
> Hey Dmitry! I had a dream that I finally made it to St. Petersburg
> and the streets were lined with caviar and the rivers flowed with
> vodka but I was stuck with a warm Bud and a cold hot dog! ;-)
>
Humour & jokes are always welcome. The only thing is that St. Petersburg (Leningrad) had lost about _900 000_ civilians during Hitler's blockade on the town.
They died from hunger and cold. Try to imagine it like if there were your relatives there.

There are quite a few problems in the world, and the US is one of them [ in
fact it is one of the N - fill in the number of countries in the world ;) ].
And before you start eradicating those problems one by one: maybe I still
like the world as it is... Or maybe I should not worry about the US
intervening in other countries, generally speaking the US don't know other
countries exists, much less where they actually are ;)

For anyone who did not notice: there are some ;) in the above text, and I
would make 'm bigger if ASCII allowed me (note the A in ASCII?)

There are quite a few problems in the world, and the US is one of them [ in
fact it is one of the N - fill in the number of countries in the world ;) ].
And before you start eradicating those problems one by one: maybe I still
like the world as it is... Or maybe I should not worry about the US
intervening in other countries, generally speaking the US don't know other
countries exists, much less where they actually are ;)

For anyone who did not notice: there are some ;) in the above text, and I
would make 'm bigger if ASCII allowed me (note the A in ASCII?)

Sounds to me the appraisal of someone 'technical'
(verily, 'a techie') that is in denial of their
humanity - and thereby denies the fallibility of
man ....

Someone who has not yet comes to grip with how
things work in the real world, someone who still
looks up to all 'authority' figures (be they 'the
king' or their own local despot) as a 'father' figure
and therefore an infallible leader who may do no
wrong.

Perhaps THE WORLD would have been better off NOW
should Hitler have come to power in all of Europe.

Mike, I'm well aware of that part of Russian history and the
amazing courage those people showed during that horrible siege but
that was WWII. I've always wanted to visit St. Petersburg for it's
cultural treasures of your great country. Remember, I was once a
`cold warrior' and I'm delighted to see those years behind us. As
far as joking, that's a running thing between Dmitry and I. I
really do want to visit and I also want to see Sibera for it's
natural wonders knowing full well the human and environmental
`horrors' associated with that region. It's time to look forward...

>Tom Handley wrote:
> > Hey Dmitry! I had a dream that I finally made it to St. Petersburg
> > and the streets were lined with caviar and the rivers flowed with
> > vodka but I was stuck with a warm Bud and a cold hot dog! ;-)
> >
>
> Humour & jokes are always welcome. The only
>thing is that St. Petersburg (Leningrad) had lost
>about _900 000_ civilians during Hitler's blockade
>on the town.
> They died from hunger and cold.
>Try to imagine it like if there were your relatives
>there.
>
> Mike.