Personally I consider it economic/political and social stupidity and will be voting no.

The goal of our culture now is not the emancipation of the individual from the group, but the permanent definition of the individual by the group.
We used to call this bigotry.
Now we call this being woke.

Well, I'm a bit more open minded about it - quite happy to weigh up the arguments from both sides before I dismiss the idea totally.
I think it represents a unique opportunity in Scotlands history- and the very fact that the Tory, Lib Dem and Labour parties all seem so desperate to hold on to Scotland at all costs makes me wonder why- what are they so scared of losing.
I'm also quite impressed with Alex Salmond- although not a fan of the actually man- he has done so much more for Scotland than the Labour party ever did in their decades of power in Scotland.

Speaking as a Northern Englishman I would rather be on the Scottish side of the border than this one if they did get independence. A sizable chunk us would, so maybe it's worth it if you don't so we don't all turn up on your doorstep.

Navvarr wrote:Well, I'm a bit more open minded about it - quite happy to weigh up the arguments from both sides before I dismiss the idea totally.

Was open minded myself once but then (just before the S.N.P. got in) I started asking questions on topics from healthcare and NATO to fishing rights and the E.U. and everything ive read and discussed with people (including a local S.N.P. councillor) has convinced me that there's no real reward to it.

The councillor was a particular bugbear she had an almost zelot'es zeal that to be honest irked me greatly.

Her (almost mantra like) answer of " Its the best way forward for Scotland" to most questions...

I do agree with you about the NO campaign its just a mess of negativity that adds nothing to the debate.

Never have I ever considered myself anything other Scottish, the idea that without self determination I am anything other than that mystifies me.

The goal of our culture now is not the emancipation of the individual from the group, but the permanent definition of the individual by the group.
We used to call this bigotry.
Now we call this being woke.

I'm quite cynical when it comes to politics in general, to me its always been boring old men flapping their gums and doing the exact same thing as the guy before them. This topic seems to address another altogether really: Identity. Now the Scots in general are visibly Scottish and proud of it, likewise are the Welsh and the Irish (depending on denomination). The weak link in this line of thought is England itself.
British youth in general seems desperate to identify more with the US then with its own. "proud to be british" is often associated as a tagline for the BNP, UKIP etc and has more than mild racial connontations because of that. We were an Empire, perhaps the Last empire. Virtually half of the globe has at one time or another come under our sovereignty, yet most of that isn't taught in schools, for various reasons and placating agendas. Now we are simply taught we are "multicultural", which is fine and an admirable ideal we should all live upto across the globe.
However when the Scots are Scots, The Welsh are Welsh and the Irish are Irish, the British are Multicultural. Which has no one thing or ideological basis to identify with and thus becomes a general din of the beliefs of everyone. The last thing that remotely ties Britain of today with yesterday is the two names of our illustrious island: Great Britain or The United Kingdom, which to be honest without Scotland both of these names become hollow at best and redundant at worse. Which would be a real shame for political agenda's of today to blot out so much history.

I'm half asleep, so feel free to ignore this lastest edition of the Pious Rant and move onward regardless.

Still voting no myself, though I've had to ask my dad to be my proxy as I'm away.

Did watch the second debate last night and it was as always a posturing arrogant mess, Salmond "won" this one basically by repeating himself much as Darling did in the first one.

The goal of our culture now is not the emancipation of the individual from the group, but the permanent definition of the individual by the group.
We used to call this bigotry.
Now we call this being woke.

I haven't read up too much on this subject, but from what I've heard, doesn't it cause more problems than it solves? It means there would be a border between the two countries, subject to Border Control for a start. services like Virgin Media would possibly have to charge more due to cross-country services (you know they'd spin it that way eventually), mail order things lie Amazon etc would charge more for the same reason due to cross border delivery...

And all this doesn't take into account any services that Scotland have included as being part of the UK (NHS for example), and anything that is currently based in England, like energy services - how will these be affected?

Either Scotland would need its own currency, or it'd have to hope England lets it use the pound in the same way without extra taxation etc.

It just seems to me like its being massively pushed as a revolution for Scotland, but nothing seems to have been ironed out or decided properly yet. How are you supposed to vote on this without a full plan? Either that, or every single one of these questions has already been answered and I'm just too lazy to find it out!

No you're quite right Regemond, there is an alarming number of unanswered questions in regards to a YES vote, that in typical politician's style Salmond is just ignoring instead of giving solid answers too. I also read this whole vote is actually generating some anger in Welsh and Irish circles. The narrative to this vote being thought of as Scotland thinking themselves better or above the rest of us is creating a degree of resentment.

It just seems bizarre to me at times, I was on the way home when I overheard two schoolboys in front of me chatting about it when one said "My dad says we'll finally get rid of the English tyrants" his friend said "Whats a tyrant ?"

Was nice to here kids actually talking about politics, even though they didn't really have a clue.

But what I find truly bizarre is this strange victimhood we scots seem to have, I mean its not as if there's Tory death squads roaming the glens killing brave stanch SNP supporters...

well not for a few hundred years at least.

We live in a free first world democracy, we have opportunities that 3/4 of the world don't and may never have and its still not enough.

As for reg.'s query's

Yes with diverging immigration policy and possible British withdrawal from Europe I can see a border within a decade.

Our green energy polices only currently work because the subsidies that they cost is spread across the UK, if we go indi. my energy bills will rise within 5 years to compensate.

In all likely hood after a win the SNP will fragment quickly (there's 3 main groups in the party) leading to a labour dominated government within the decade with in many cases extreme left wing socialist views.

So to follow undoubtedly would be re-nationalization of rail/mail etc. I personally have only dim memory's of the winter of discontent in the seventies ...what goes around comes around.

As for the pound Salmond banged on about having a "public mandate" if he wins, which means f#ck all in political terms, I just cant see why the rest of Britain would want currency union with a partner whom you have no control over.

Or to use an analogy.

You divorce the wife but keep the joint account she spends what she wants when she wants, she accumulates debt which though you don't have to pay back does count against you the next time you want a loan, and she can rent out her spare room cheaper than you can yours to attract lodgers (investment from overseas).

why would anyone agree to that

And besides irrelevant of whom ever is running the country after a win, the Euro will become "free" Scotland's currency and we Scots will be swapping one tyrants chains for another

The goal of our culture now is not the emancipation of the individual from the group, but the permanent definition of the individual by the group.
We used to call this bigotry.
Now we call this being woke.

I live in the north east but my sales area includes Edinburgh so I have tried to keep as up to date as possible but every scot I have spoken to is voting no. The majority have said that the main reason is the fact that both yes and no sides have given no concrete numbers on any of their claims but the only guarantee so far is a number of big companies would leave Scotland.

I was also told that Scotland would most likely not get the euro as all euro countries need to vote yes to allow them in and nobody can see Germany saying yes when they are already bailing Greece out. Anything but a guaranteed success of Scotland would make them say yes and nobody can prove that.

Personally I think it would be a great shame for Britain to break up after all this time and for what mainly seems like one mans power trip.