Does not compute... moral choice. Adam & Eve: don't eat the apple, here's some artificially-flavored Apple Jacks instead? Not a perfect analogy, but I think it makes my point (it should not be lost on you that Apple Jacks is made by Kellogg's, a company founded by a religious vegetarian).

That analogy is weird. I also doubt that you don't know that many people turn vegetarian/ vegan because they think killing and exploiting animals and keeping them in miserable conditions is bad.

I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animal respect."

~Temple Grandin

She has designed quite a few slaughterhouses in between being a spokesperson for the autistic community

His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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Originally Posted by soldiermedic25

I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animal respect."

~Temple Grandin

She has designed quite a few slaughterhouses in between being a spokesperson for the autistic community

I don't disagree with that sentiment. But change costs money. It's easy to say we should do this and that. It's a little more difficult to make a decision to spend stacks of cash on facility upgrades, etc. when it means you're going to price yourself out of the market.

How many of the people who want more humane conditions for animals care strongly enough to spend 50% more for a pound of ground beef?

A big mistake a lot of vegans and vegetarians make is not getting enough protein.

In all fairness, that's really only true for vegetarians who don't know what they're doing (nutrition wise)...you do not need meat for protein, which is naturally found in all sorts of vegetables and nuts, in far more healthy "packaging" as it were.

In fact, although George Washington Carver invented peanut butter, it was made famous and public in the US by Dr. Ambrose Straub, who used Carver's peanut mash to create a protein supplement for the elderly. As people (yes, even you and I) get older they often begin to have trouble digesting meats or even chewing it, and so it's common to find them being given peanut butter by caregivers.

In all fairness, that's really only true for vegetarians who don't know what they're doing (nutrition wise)...you do not need meat for protein, which is naturally found in all sorts of vegetables and nuts, in far more healthy "packaging" as it were.

In fact, although George Washington Carver invented peanut butter, it was made famous and public in the US by Dr. Ambrose Straub, who used Carver's peanut mash to create a protein supplement for the elderly. As people (yes, even you and I) get older they often begin to have trouble digesting meats or even chewing it, and so it's common to find them being given peanut butter by caregivers.

I'm neither a true vegetarian nor a vegan, but when I decided to cut down on my meat use I started eating a lot more peanut butter to help with the protein supply. Also certain nuts, sunflower seeds etc.

That analogy is weird. I also doubt that you don't know that many people turn vegetarian/ vegan because they think killing and exploiting animals and keeping them in miserable conditions is bad.

No, I do recognize that - which is why I don't understand the morality argument. Maybe I'm just being over-trollish trying to associate the flavor of the sin with the actual sin, but I'm sorta serious.

Perhaps a better (yet, still flawed) analogy would be substitution of methadone (meat-flavored veggie treats) for heroin (steak, or nice thick juicy Italian sausage). Are you really eliminating the sin, or simply replacing it with sin-lite? I also know people addicted to nicorette and those stupid e-cigarettes (perhaps the best analogy?).

In all fairness, that's really only true for vegetarians who don't know what they're doing (nutrition wise)...you do not need meat for protein, which is naturally found in all sorts of vegetables and nuts, in far more healthy "packaging" as it were.

In fact, although George Washington Carver invented peanut butter, it was made famous and public in the US by Dr. Ambrose Straub, who used Carver's peanut mash to create a protein supplement for the elderly. As people (yes, even you and I) get older they often begin to have trouble digesting meats or even chewing it, and so it's common to find them being given peanut butter by caregivers.

Except that peanuts are not a complete source of protein. (Peanut better is, however, a very calorically dense food). Your body cannot manufacture certain amino acids that it needs (called "essential amino acids"). Meats and animal products almost invariably contain these amino acidts. But there are, in fact, very few single vegetarian/vegan foods that contain them all. They have to eat various combinations of food to assure they don't become malnourished. They also have issues with B12, Vitamin D, etc.

my mum (a research scientist working on her doctorate in molecular biology) was telling me the other day about a study she had been helping out with about how children who were primarily vegetarian can end up being malnourished, because their colon is not long enough to get enough nutrients out of a mostly vege diet. i thought that was kinda interesting.