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I'm not saying you're wrong - but all I can tell you is: my father is a small business owner that was very successful. I wouldn't call him rich as we think of it today - but in our small town his income was in the top 1%. I didn't pay for college. I joined the Air Force because I was looking for a challenge and as a child of the 80's I had a strong sense of patriotism that began with Reagan in 1980. I was literally excited the day I turned 18 and went to the post office to fill out my selective service card. Of all the men and women I served with, I can't recall a single instance of any of them saying they were in the air force because they had no choice. They were all there because they wanted to be there. Now, I also recognize as a flight crew we were probably composed of individuals that had perspectives that may not have been common. I agree the airman who was tasked with emptying the $hitter may not have had the same level of appreciation as officers like myself, or my professional NCO's who served as flight engineers and loadmasters. I wasn't recruited into the air force. I sought it out. I wasn't promised anything except an opportunity to be put in situations that would challenge me and create life long memories. I can't or won't speak for the other services, but this is not the era of vietnam. There is no draft. The men and women I served with were proud, not reluctant volunteers. The men and women I served with did not join because it was their only option - for many it was simply a GREAT option.

are there men and women serving because they come from poverty and have/had no choice? I'm sure. My experience however is those are rare cases and as I said above, I can't recall a single instance over my entire career where someone admitted such circumstances as their reason for signing up.

of course, I was in the air force.

maybe you were talking about the army.........

(sorry, couldn't resist).

Well said and I agree except the last part about the Army but I would not expect any more from a "wingnut"...... And thank you for serving

Molon labe

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell

American metal pimped by asiansteel
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you 1. Jesus Christ, 2.The American G.I., One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Flip & Llyod,
You two can hide behind your little philosophical arguments all you want, but your position sickens me as an American. How neither of you can embrace our veterans on Veteran's Day shows a complete lack of respect.

Flip & Llyod,
You two can hide behind your little philosophical arguments all you want, but your position sickens me as an American. How neither of you can embrace our veterans on Veteran's Day shows a complete lack of respect.

No defending your position on this day.

So, if our assertions were so flawed, how come you couldn't refute them in any way other than just general ad hominem attacks, which are considered completely invalid by anyone with a modicum of intelligence. And you know nothing about me to make such a general assessment. I probably have spent more $ supporting out troops than most have. How many care packages did most of you send to Iraq for the troops? And I don't mean just giving money to some other organization, but go out, and find out what they needed most, physically buy the supplies, package them in a box and go to the post office and send it out. How many times did most of you do that? How many times have you given $ to orgs. like the disabled veteran groups and things of that nature. Oh, and a magnet on the back of your car is hardly true support. Words are cheap. And this doodle noodle here: You actually think we shouldn't bring up Iraq why again? That story and war isn't even over yet but you think no one should even bring it up? We got some genius going on up in here.

The thread has been moved to the general discussion forum, since its not Steeler related at all. We have many veterans on the board and I would ask in this one instance on veterans day that if you don't have something nice to say then please don't say it. If you want to start a thread not honoring veterans on veterans day that is your prerogative, this thread was to simply honor those that serve or have served in the military. Please honor them, say nothing or start another thread.

I'm not trying to stereotype. Just by the demographics, it supports that the middle class is the typical profile. I'm sure everyone had differing reasons for enrolling. Some feel a sense of duty. Others view it as a job. And it's probably different in different eras from the times of the Korean War and Vietnam to the current wars.

I remember when I was 17 and graduating high school, there were no wars. And I was relatively poor growing up. And I remember talking to my buddies about enlisting (and a lot of my friends did). Some wanted to travel. Others were sold on the idea of getting college paid for. I had one buddy that joined the Air Force because he wanted to fly planes. At that time it really just was a career option to all of us. The cold war was over. The world was at peace for the most part.

I know for a fact many friends are glad to have enrolled and gained a ton out of the experience and got things out of life they otherwise wouldn't have likely achieved.

I now have friends that have kids that are enlisting. In this crazier world we live in now, I think it's a completely different decision. Now we're at war. Young adults are now coming of age after remembering 9/11 in their early life. There's more that goes into the decision. But at the end of the day, I just view it as a career path for kids.

You either get a job, go to college, or join the military. It's just one of 3 options. And everyone has to decide which is best for them.

I'm glad there are people that choose this as a profession. Just as I'm glad some are police officers, teachers, bankers, builders, homemakers, cooks, entertainers, whatever. As long as everyone is doing the best they can and contributing to the world in whatever way that they're best suited, I say great.

I'm not a big fan of how we use men and women in the military for political purpose. But like many have said, that's not the individuals fault. They're just doing the best they can like the rest of us.

Of all places, I heard on ESPN today that the last living person from WWI has passed and now there are no more survivors from that war.

Flip & Llyod,
You two can hide behind your little philosophical arguments all you want, but your position sickens me as an American. How neither of you can embrace our veterans on Veteran's Day shows a complete lack of respect.

No defending your position on this day.

Veterans Day was originally Armistice Day and it was intended to support the cause of world peace. Soldiers fought and died in WWI to protect our freedom/liberty. And everything they fought for is at risk in the world we live in today. Eventually Armistice day was extended out to all Veterans.

Questioning the gov't, the reason for war, the use of people's lives, etc. shows complete concern for our military.

Maybe a different way to look at it is this. We individual say we're thankful for our men and women of service. But collectively we vote for political parties and candidates that use our soldiers as pawns in wars over political games that don't show proper respect to the lives of men and women in service. Why do we sit back and allow this to happen.

If the historic significance of this day is to promote world peace, then maybe the best way we can honor our service folks is to have conversations about living up to the standard of this day.

We're probably further from world peace today than we were at the beginning of WWI. That's pretty messed up when you really think about it.

Veterans Day was originally Armistice Day and it was intended to support the cause of world peace. Soldiers fought and died in WWI to protect our freedom/liberty. And everything they fought for is at risk in the world we live in today. Eventually Armistice day was extended out to all Veterans.

Questioning the gov't, the reason for war, the use of people's lives, etc. shows complete concern for our military.

Maybe a different way to look at it is this. We individual say we're thankful for our men and women of service. But collectively we vote for political parties and candidates that use our soldiers as pawns in wars over political games that don't show proper respect to the lives of men and women in service. Why do we sit back and allow this to happen.

If the historic significance of this day is to promote world peace, then maybe the best way we can honor our service folks is to have conversations about living up to the standard of this day.

We're probably further from world peace today than we were at the beginning of WWI. That's pretty messed up when you really think about it.

Well said. I will further add that to NOT question every war they throw our troops into is a great DISSERVICE to our troops. Just blindly going along with every war they send them into is like spitting in the face of every veteran there is.