A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.

Isn't there a depending relationship between seeing the 'causes of' and 'results of' kamma? Can someone see the causes of rebirth without seeing the results of it? Can someone see the results of rebirth without seeing the causes of it?

With best wishes

Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma

A small point of order. The question is to the 'causes of' not the 'results of'.

Isn't there a depending relationship between seeing the 'causes of' and 'results of' kamma? Can someone see the causes of rebirth without seeing the results of it? Can someone see the results of rebirth without seeing the causes of it?

Well if the Buddha didn't provide the Abhidhamma, I'd like to thank whoever did. Thanks, to whoever. I don't, btw, have any use for 'beliefs' whatsoever but the Abhidhamma has endless utility for my purposes.

Ok, causality.We are, each of us, results, whether we see that or not. So, there you go. We are also causes whether we see that or not, so there you go again. How much anyone actually sees, is a question of actually looking into it instead of just believing stuff, thinking about stuff, arguing stuff or what have you.upekkha

Stefan wrote:How does consciousness pass from one body to the next at the moment of rebirth? Is it similar to how radio waves travel through air from one emitter to the receiver?

In Theravada (as far as I understand it at least), the literal interpretation of rebirth is viewed as an instantaneous process whereby the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness (kind of like "spooky action at a distance" where two entangled particles communicate with each other instantaneously, even over great distances).

According to the teachings on dependent origination — a process of conditionality that's understood to occur moment to moment and over multiple lifetimes (non-literalists simply disregard the "three-life" model, e.g., see Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination) — if there are sufficient conditions present, those conditions with inevitably result in future births (SN 12.35). Along with consciousness, craving (tahna) plays a vital role in the renewal of beings and the production of future births.

To illustrate how craving could result in future births, the Buddha used a simile in which he compared the sustenance of a flame to that of a being at the time of death. Essentially, a flame burns in dependence on its fuel, and that fuel sustains it. When a flame burns in dependence on wood, for example, the wood sustains that flame. However, when a flame is swept up and carried away by the wind, the fuel of wind sustains that flame until it lands upon a new source of fuel. In the same way, a being at the time of death has the fuel of craving as its sustenance (SN 44.9).

The last consciousness of a being at the time of death, with the presence of craving, is the cause for the arising of a new consciousness. In the human realm, this would be in combination with the union of a healthy sperm and egg (MN 38), although the Buddha often mentioned various other forms of birth in other realms of existence. Hence, the Buddha states: "Wherever there is a basis for consciousness, there is support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of renewed existence" (SN 12.38). The Buddha never really got more specific than that, though.

Hi JasonWould you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?Thanks

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ben wrote:Hi JasonWould you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?Thanks

Ben

Then the first yakkha, ignoring the second yakkha, gave Ven. Sariputta a blow on the head. And with that blow he might have knocked over an elephant seven or eight cubits tall, or split a rocky crag. But right there the yakkha — yelling, "I'm burning!" — fell into the Great Hell.

As far as I know, in the Suttas all the rebirth stories are like this. I have never read any Sutta where beings die and then turn into mysterious and inscrutable spooks who have to hang around in a Bardo waiting room, or go searching for a couple making love, before they can be reborn.

Ben wrote:Hi JasonWould you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?Thanks

Ben

Ben,

As far as I know, there's nothing in the Nikayas that explicitly mentions this, but it's the official Theravada position as the idea of an intermediate state was rejected at the Council of Patali. I'm sure it's in the Kathavatthu, and possibly in the commentaries somewhere, but beyond that I can't give you an exact reference.

Jason

Last edited by Jason on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ben wrote:Hi JasonWould you be so kind as to provide evidence from the Nikayas that rebirth is instantaneous?Thanks

Ben

Ben,I'm sure you are fully aware of the evidence that rebirth is instantaneous.I'm sure you are also aware of the evidence that rebirth is not instantaneous.I don't see any benefit in re-introducing that debate here.As Jason said, instantaneous rebirth is the traditionally taught Theravada position, something I'm sure you are also already aware of.

If for some strange reason you are in fact unfamiliar with this debate, I'm sure there are other threads covering it in detail.