I had a PM but am not sure if it referred to a thread or not, so I'll stick it here because it's of interest

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Question:

Why not tow a '13? It weighs #1000, has trailer brakes and is under the towing limit set by the manufacturer and DOT. As far as I'm concerned, a '13 is perfect for a smaller vehicle like an Element or any other light car. The tranny cooler is a prudent option if you are going to trailer it in the mountains. As for overdrive, look in the Element owners manual and it explicitly states that in hilly terrain take it out of overdrive and continue towing. When I leave it in overdrive I have no problems, I'm just following the owners manual. So my question stands, "why not tow a '13?"

Answer:

If a loaded 13' weighed only 1,000 lbs (dry) I might agree with you, but they don't and likely never did -- The Scamp brochure weights are way off (read the Casita specs on a 13') -- They put a 2,200 lb axle under them for a reason -- You aren't going to be towing a dry trailer...

I have a 91S13' -- It has the foam icebox, not a refrigerator -- It doesn't have a toilet (except my porta-potti), it doesn't have a hot water heater, it doesn't have gray or black tanks, it doesn't have oven (just range top), it doesn't have a converter and it only has a ten-pound LP tank instead of the usual 20-lb and it doesn't have air conditioning or the regular RV furnace. It does have a vent-free heater, a fantastical fan and a spare wheel/tire. That's a pretty basic unit.

The actual scale weight, loaded for the road (IOW, what I really tow) is 1,750 lbs on the axle and another 250 lbs tongue weight and that was before I added the brakes and brake drums to it.

The tongue label on my Scamp says axleweight is 950 lbs -- I don't for a moment believe that I have nearly doubled the weight of the trailer with food, LP, water and clothes.

Here's the way tow capacity is calculated -- The engineers set a total capacity weight, after consulting with the marketing guys, called the Gross Combined Weight Restriction (GCWR; which should be in your owner's manual) -- From that they subtract the curb weight (usually vehicle, driver and fuel -- Maybe some cargo), then subtract extras (like hitch receiver, trans cooler, other after-market, etc.), then subtract cargo and passengers and trailer tongue weight) and the remainder is available for trailer axle weight -- The max tow weight is often calculated using no passengers, no cargo, 10% of trailer for TW (sort of a circular figure) and minimal hitch weight.

Reportedly, for trucks the curb weight presumes no cargo, but passenger vehicles have greater allowance for passengers/cargo so that may need to be taken into account.

So, what YOU need to do, rather than listen to other folks who may be proud of their bravery and their experience so far and there brave-element or VW or whatever, and just haven't managed to get into the right situation at the wrong time, is find out your GCWR and take your Element to a scale and get the curb weight -- Then you can start subtracting for the cargo, passengers and hitch equipment and see what's left for actual trailer.

Based on my numbers, it looks like you will already have exceeded the stated tow capacity by 250 lbs even if the Element was empty and there was no tongue weight.

The reason I may seem harsh on this subject is that I had my Scamp yank my half-ton full-size Dodge pickup all over a road in BC and I was darned lucky there was no one in the oncoming lane -- My truck was rated for 2,000 lbs TC.

Thank you all for everyone's kind help with my jeep and "which" Casita decision. I now own one. I opted for a 16 footer!

At the very end of last month I drove my Jeep Wrangler from Jacksonville Beach, Florida, to a very nice, small town just north of Montgomery, Alabama, called Coosada and purchased a 'new-to-me", 2000 Casita, 16' Spirit Deluxe, from a fine young lady there. The local RV dealer, Clark's RV, hooked up a new plug to my Jeep to match the Casita's, installed a brake controller for the Casita brakes and put a sway bar extension on my hitch so I could use the sway bar that came with my 'new' Casita. I was excited but very, very tired.

I had been driving since 0400 that morning to get to Coosada around noonish and while the drive was long, my overall purchase experience could not have been more pleasant. The Casita was just as the young lady said, pristine on the inside but showing some signs of wear on the outside from always being parked under the elements. And, almost everything worked, which was a plus. The folks at Clark's RV were professional and quite reasonable as I was expecting a much higher bill than what I was charged for the work they did. I would recommend them highly if anyone finds themselves near Montgomery and need any work at all done on their trailer.

I was tired that afternoon from the drive and all the stress and excitement of my new ownership when everything was finally hooked up to my Jeep but quite nervous too. I had read more than just a little negativity on these forums from some who had cautioned against towing a package so close to, or exceeding, the maximum rating of my tow vehicle. But, I had also been able to locate and communicate with two who already did in fact tow 16 foot Casitas with their Jeep Wranglers so, I suspected, but was not completely convinced, that I could too. When I pulled out of Clark RV's parking lot that afternoon with my new Casita following firmly behind me, to say that I was 'white-knuckled' would be a considerable understatement.

But, I soon found that I had no problems towing at all. In the beginning I never let my speed exceed 55 MPH. Then, As I slowly gained more confidence, I let it creep up to 60 MPH and occasionally to 65 even. On the I-10 expressway I even nudged it to 70 MPH on a few occasions when I let my mind wander but always immediately backed off to average my speed somewhere in the 60's, between 60 and 65, which is where i felt safer. The jeep's motor pulled it nicely and I never needed shifting much out of 5th gear on the rolling hills of southern Alabama. And, not once did it even hint at swaying, even when I was passed by tractor and trailers speeding past me in the rain that evening.

I was most pleasantly surprised with my gas consumption, too. The Jeep is known for it's horrible mileage per gallon and i averaged exactly 16.6 miles for each of them up to the point where i picked up my Casita and then a surprising 14.8 miles for each with towing it behind me. I expected considerably worse. That meant, for each 1000 miles of towing the Casita would in the future cost me just an additional 7.3 gallons more of gas. Now, that is not a bad trade-off for hauling one's home with them. Of course, I did not have my additional 300 pounds or so of personal gear I will later carry or water in the holding tank, but it did have a full propane tank. Even if i lose a full 2 MPG instead of the 1.8, I will still be quite happy! I must add that I do not know what the Casita weighs, but it is a deluxe version so I am guessing at 1650-1700 or so.

The bottom line, from my experience, is that my Jeep Wrangler is indeed up to the task of pulling THIS 16' Spirit Deluxe, made in the tender year of 2000. Now, I know it will struggle some going up and over the Rocky Mountains on at least two occasions northwestward this summer on the drive to Alaska, but I am now convinced that not only is it a doable adventure but a fairly safe one as well, so long as I always maintain my vigilance. But, that is something we all need to maintain anyway, no matter what our tow vehicle is, right? I do wonder, though, just how much 'slop' is built into each vehicle's published tow capacity, especially in this country of easy and all to often frivolous lawsuits. My Jeep's tow capacity is much higher in Europe, for instance, than the 2000 pounds it is listed at here in the USA.

I am happy with my decision. If you can believe it, am even happy waxing off almost nine years of accumulated oxidation from the 'egglet' and putting the shine back into it!

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Pete:
I underlined THIS in my thread above specifically to indicate that the combination works for me, and obviously not that I was suggesting that others do so or even counseling others to do so.

We all must make our own decisions and we are all responsible for our own actions. What I tried to carefully, and tactfully, suggest was that we should evaluate the "nay" opinions, as well as the "yea" opinions of others on any subject and take each with the very same "grain of salt". I know that I am likely pushing the envelope a bit in this endeavor but I just wanted to say that it was not an impossible task, as was offered by some. In fact, my experience is that I cannot even consider it reckless. Just my knowing the limitation likely will go a long way towards making me a much more cautious driver than I might be otherwise, for instance, pulling with something like a Hummer. I just like my Jeep. I do not want another vehicle. And, I wanted a 16 footer. It is a marriage that seems to work for me. I am certainly not counseling it for everyone else!...Unless, of course, you wish the same combination for yourself!

The reason that I mentioned what I did was that we had a recent poster who was going to hang a lot of weight on his conventional trailer because a poster on another forum had done it without problems with a 5W trailer....

People sometimes see what they want in what they read on forums like this, so it's best to be very clear.

On a related note. I thought my draw bar was a bit long so I drilled another hole about 2 inches back from the factory hole. Now my ball is about 2 inches closer to my rear axle and my shins are less often barked. Not sure if it affected towing but physics says it must be better.

I have a 2004 jeep wrangler and am considering 16' dad if. Concerned with mountain roads. Have your experiences since you have been driving your rig with a Jeep then good.

Susan, I would urge caution. This is a 10 year old thread, and the satisfactory report only covered the maiden trip home in the Southeast. From my experience, California mountains can be pretty demanding on a tow vehicle due to grade, temperature, winds, elevation, and other factors that may be very different than the earlier poster's experience.

As others already suggested, consider the liability aspect of towing a trailer that will probably end up running almost 50% over the manufacturer's tow rating. I was towing in SoCal in heavy traffic at about 50 mph when a small sports car pulled right in front of me and immediately braked hard to make a rapidly approaching exit. It was a close call, and one that reminded me that it doesn't have to be your fault in order to be held liable. If I had been towing an overweight trailer, the outcome might easily have been different and a lawyer would have had a field day at my expense.

You might also want to edit your post to clarify the type of trailer- a "dad if" is not a brand we know here.

I have a 2004 jeep wrangler and am considering 16' dad if. Concerned with mountain roads. Have your experiences since you have been driving your rig with a Jeep then good.

Susan,

We towed our 16" Scamp with our Sahara knowing that we were pushing the limits of the towing capacity as well as the safety margins. We never had an issue, BUT, we never tried anything of any real consequence. I always felt like it was a precarious situation and every single time we arrived home safely, I exhaled a huge sigh of relief. And I burned a lot of clutch backing up the 30' hill of our driveway...but that's just me.

There are a lot of safety concerns when it comes to towing and there are many finer points to towing capacity that most people don't want to take the time to understand: engine, transmission, differentials and brakes as well as tow vehicle weight, weight distribution and mass/inertia.

The only Jeep that I would recommend attempting to tow with would be a Rubicon because that model has the highest rated towing capacities that you'll find in your owner's manual. Even then, the capacity listed for a Rubicon are at the outside end of the capabilities for towing the lightest FGRV's. Once you add gear, water, fuel and bodies, you be pushing your limits and it's not worth the risk. This towing ability is reflected in the wiring harness of my Jeep Sahara that only included a four pin plug on the wiring harness of my JKW. I upgraded to a seven pin as well as a brake controller to enable us to pull our Scamp.

Based on my experience, I think that a Jeep of any model should only tow a smaller utility trailer and never a full sized boat or camper, but that's only my opinion and not worth the paper it's written on. You'll find people, like me, that have done it and come home safely. You'll also find many people will disagree with my assessment and recommendation and I'm ok with that; I've done it and I know what I experienced.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should...be careful and choose wisely.

bill (not laura)

__________________
"Not all those who wander are lost." J.R.R. Tolkien

The tow ratings for Wranglers are based, at least partially, on "stability", not overall weight. For instance, the 4 door Wrangler has a tow rating of 3,500 lbs and the 2 door, with identical engine, trans and equipment is rated for 2,000 lbs. Trailer weight is only one factor, but is used as a general rule.

You could move a trailer of much higher weight around a parking lot, with complete safety, or pull a heavy stump at near zero speeds, but you could easily crash a trailer much lighter than the rated weight while speeding along in a cross wind.

The reduced tow rating for the 2 door is the factory limit at which the stability control system is still likely to get you out of trouble in an emergency, or help you significantly while cornering or braking. Wranglers have a number of design features working against stability.

A tow rating of "2000 lbs" is not a good way to tell you much more than how it will cross a mountain range with steep grades, or stop in an emergency. What should be considered is some kind of "stability" factor.

Someone earlier mentioned towing a boat trailer and used that for evidence that a Scamp would be fine, but they are not the same thing at all. A ski boat trailer, for instance, is very stable because it is very low, has a long distance between the ball and the axle, has stiff suspension, low cross wind resistance and is wide. Boat trailers tow very well in general, at any speed.

Short and high trailers with soft suspensions are much less stable, even if they weigh less. Also, travel trailers can have a large difference in their weight distribution at different times, which changes their stability.

Just the fact that someone is concerned if they are too close to the factory limit and asking all kinds of advice, and getting all kinds of answers, means that there is a valid concern.

The person that has limited experience and wants to tow with a vehicle that is less stable than most and at the upper weight limits recommended, and then says they tow up to 70 mph with that setup and think it's fine just because they didn't crash it on one trip home, is getting set up for a disaster.

We need a stability factor of some kind, in addition to a simple weight factor. And we need more common sense than to compare apples to oranges or to use unrelated evidence to justify what we want to do.

Advice from a salesman that it's fine to tow an empty trailer, that is barely below the rating of the vehicle, is not good advice. Just because a Wrangler once towed a boat trailer, doesn't meant a travel trailer will be stable. Speeding along with limited towing experience, and not crashing it, doesn't mean it's safe. Using an empty trailer weight to argue the safety of the towing limit, ignores the reality of real world weights and weight distribution.

Being concerned that one is getting too close to the towing limit, means they are getting too close to the towing limit. We never know how much margin we are going to need during the emergency stop or emergency avoidance that catches us off guard. More margin is better. Less is worse. And speed is probably the biggest factor of all. Slower is better. Faster is worse.

For example, my friend just crashed his rig on Christmas eve. A 3/4 ton Ram/ Cummins towing a small travel trailer. A single car accident, during the day, on a dry level road, with no other cars in sight. He rolled it four times, totaled the truck and trailer and was trapped inside, upside down, until a passerby came along about 20 minutes later and cut his seat belt to get him out. His margin of safety was very high, in theory. Never a thought to wether his truck could handle the trailer weight. Weight was not the issue. Stability and speed were.

__________________I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt.

It's a good thing we didn't know how dangerous it was. We thought Jeeps and trailers went together like peanut butter and jelly... No trailer brakes, not even seat belts. I believe these images are of early the Jeep testing program in WWII.