Post by Kidz Jam on Mar 3, 2009 12:54:59 GMT -5

There has been talk in another thread about letting older children wander around Bonnaroo by themselves.

Just because you are at a music festival, that does not make it a safe place. Bonnaroo policy is that all children should be attended by parents at all times. This is for your child's safety as well as for insurance purposes.

Anyone can overpower a 12 year old kid, and 12 year old kids, no matter how 'mature' you think they are, can find themselves in very scary situations. While I don't want to insult or demean the personal discretion of the parents on this board, I DO feel like this should be said.

ANYONE can pay a ticket price to get into Bonnaroo. Leaving your child alone means leaving them in a sea of 100's of thousands of people. People that you don't know. People who may be drinking (among other things) and may not be in full control of themselves.

A 12 year old is a child. If you do not want to be bothered to watch them, then DO NOT BRING THEM.

Take that advice however you would like to take it.

If I see any young kids wandering around by themselves, then you will be getting a call and you will find yourself picking them up at the Sherrif's tent. I am in Bonnaroo running Kidz Jam all day every day of the festival, so you can bet that I'm going to run into them. Trust me, you don't want to explain yourself to the Sheriff.

Post by itrainmonkeys on Mar 3, 2009 14:35:15 GMT -5

That's very good points Kidz Jam - I don't mind seeing kids around bonnaro - but 12 year olds should not bu unsupervised. I think 16/17 is a little better but can still be questionable. Definitely think before doing

Post by pondo ROCKS on Mar 3, 2009 15:03:47 GMT -5

Providing an outlet and a voice for music lovers to unite under the common theme of music for all. Join The Pondo Army to show your allegiance to musical freedom! Fighting for no censorship of the arts & music education in schools, The Pondo Army will triumph! The Pondo Army Movement
Follow me on twitter@Pondoknowsbest

Post by dreamingtree on Mar 3, 2009 18:47:31 GMT -5

I agree totally. I took my daughter at 14 and would not let her go off on her own. At 15 I did, but she was with a friend, and last year at 16 she had a group of friends with her. 12 is definitely too young to be alone at Roo.

Post by Guest on Mar 3, 2009 20:53:39 GMT -5

My first festival i went to alone i was 13 for a 3 day'r in Somerset Wi. I lied to my dad and said I was staying with my mom in the cities and that she picked me up but i really hopped on a greyhound with 2 other 14year olds... wasnt the smartest thing looking back at it

Post by 400hz on Mar 3, 2009 23:49:38 GMT -5

To begin with I apologize if this comes across as petty and argumentative however I have to disagree with your posting . I appreciate the job you're doing with KidzJam, but I have to take exception to this statement.

If I see any young kids wandering around by themselves, then you will be getting a call and you will find yourself picking them up at the Sherrif's tent. I am in Bonnaroo running Kidz Jam all day every day of the festival, so you can bet that I'm going to run into them. Trust me, you don't want to explain yourself to the Sheriff.

If I were to take my twelve year old with me and let them wander a little bit why would I have to explain anything to the sheriff? What law is being broken here? Tennessee has no age limit that states a child must be with a parent.

You state that

Bonnaroo policy is that all children should be attended by parents at all times

. Citation please: I can't find that anywhere on the Bonnaroo website nor the Guide. What age do you consider to be a cutoff to be considered a child? What's to prevent a child from buying a ticket to Bonnaroo on their own; the ticket website has no method in place to prevent 'underage' kids from buying them.

Yes, Bonnaroo has over 80,000 people (not "100's of thousands of people" however), from what statistics I've seen though crime is actually less during the weekend than occurs in a comparable population city during a similar timeframe. What is it that makes Bonnaroo inherently more unsafe to my child than letting him walk to his friends house a few blocks away in our hometown? There's far fewer vehicles to run over him. Is it all the strangers? Kids are smart, teach them to be wary of strangers and they will be safer. Anyway most child abductions/abuse cases are not caused by strangers but are instead from relatives or people they know. Might be more practical to forbid kids from going to family reunions.

I have no interest in taking my children to Roo until they are older but that's more due to the heat and strenuous environment than anything. I don't see that they are in any more danger there than at home. It's pretty ironic that the same culture that is prevalent at Bonnaroo espousing personal freedom is going to try to dictate how I should raise my kids.

Post by Kidz Jam on Mar 4, 2009 9:29:28 GMT -5

I appreciate your response here, as I expected that there would be some questions on this from a few parents.

As I said in my previous post, it is the parents discretion to let young kids wander around Bonnaroo on their own if they like.

I would say that it goes without saying that YOU are responsible for your minor child at ALL TIMES, with them or not. Whether you are at the mall or an event on private property, you kid is your responsibility. Leaving your child opens you and the festival to liability issues.

At Kidz Jam, we are required by festival directors to post 'CHILDREN MUST BE ACCOMPANIED BY AN ADULT AT ALL TIMES' signs around our area. As I explained before, this policy is not only to protect your kids, but also to protect Bonnaroo from liability. It is a good policy. I don't think that the Bonnaroo insurance auditors would be happy to know that you are going into the festival to let your child run around on their own with the chance of getting hurt, lost or worse.

Perhaps you are responsible about your day and regularly check in with your child, text back & forth or otherwise stay in touch very frequently. Great, that's up to you, but do not contradict a message to parents who may not be as responsible that need to hear that they are NOT to leave their children alone.

The entire Bonnaroo staff is not running around rounding up kids to take to the Sheriffs or First Aid tent. However, I am more than willing to escort kids if I see them wandering aimlessly throughout the day around my area, as are fellow parents, vendors and festival attendees. Lucky for you, it's usually hard to determine if the kid is just on the way to the bathroom or spending the entire day on their own.

Think about it. If you let your 12 year old run around, then the next person can say it's okay to let their 11 year old run around. Then the parent with a 10 year old thinks it's perfectly fine, as well as that 9 year old over there. Well, my Kindergarten-age kid speaks very well to adults and seems very smart, so I think I'll just release her into a horde of strangers, right? Sadly, some people think along these lines.

It is clear that a no-tolerance policy is the best one here. I'm not saying that YOU would let a Kindergartner on their own, but if it's okay for you to leave your 12 year old kid, then it's okay for someone else to do it for their kid, too, and we have no control over the intelligence of every parent.

Kidz Jam was created because of a little barefoot 7 year old running around a Phish show parking lot at night. He wore nothing but a Superman cape & shorts and wouldn't talk to me until I convinced him that I was Wonderwoman. No joke. The mom was stoned out of her gourd and didn't even ask me who I was after we finally found her after 3 hours. I could have been ANYONE spending 3 hours with that child. Luckily for the child, I was a friendly preschool teacher.

If we concede to let one child wander around, then we concede to let all of them run around.

This is one of those things that can not be regulated due to the amount of staff, just as how some people bring in glass bottles or fireworks even though they know not to. I can't stop you from letting your child go unattended. Just know that leaving your minor child on their own in the festival grounds is not considered good practice, and I certainly don't mind walking them to a tent where they can be picked up.

Not trying to be a hard-ass, here. The BEST policy is to not let them run around. This message needs to reach parents who might be letting kids too young walk around by themselves. If you want to let your kids do this, that's your business, but please do not contradict a message that DOES need to reach parents in attendance who may not be as responsible.

As for attendance, the numbers have been lowered in recent years from 90,000 in 2004 (not including day passes for locals) to 80,000 in 2008. I won't bicker with you on the mathematical concept of 'rounding up'. To most, 80,000 strangers is probably just as concerning than 100,000 when it comes to children.

Post by Kidz Jam on Mar 4, 2009 9:56:05 GMT -5

Here is the law, for those curious, straight from the Tennessee Department of Children's Services. This should cover any questions we might have about the law and supervising your own children.

"Physical Neglect is the failure to provide for a child's physical survival needs to the extent that there is harm or risk of harm to the child's health or safety. This may include, but is not limited to abandonment, lack of supervision, life endangering physical hygiene, lack of adequate nutrition that places the child below the normal growth curve, lack of shelter, lack of medical or dental that results in health threatening conditions, and the inability to meet basic clothing needs of a child. In its most severe form, physical neglect may result in great bodily harm or death."

Post by wolfmanjess on Mar 4, 2009 11:06:01 GMT -5

Well not to dilute your message, but as a parent of a 9 year old and a 12 year old I am gonna chime in here. I went to shows from a very early age, and typically wanted to go off on my own, this was ok with my father, and we always had a meet up place and time. This allowed me to go off on my own a little but still have the safety net of dad there.

Knowing my kid if he had a cell phone, and most likely a kid finder as well, I would have no problem with doing something similar at Bonnaroo. I am not saying sit in camp and send your kid up to Kidz Jam, but a little autonomy at shows is really not out of the question for a 12 year old.

As several people on this board know, I have seen the heights of bad festival parenting at AllGood last year when Bunny, Teine, and I intervened in a very bad situation with a overheated baby. So like I said I do not want to dilute your supervision warning that is key, but I do strongly feel there is some middle ground there.

Really it all comes down to parenting, and knowing your child, and also knowing what you are comfortable with. My 9 year old I would consider a little young for anything other than stay right here where I can see you, my 12 year old I would go away for 10 minutes or so on my own to pee, or whatever, and I would also allow him to go up and get close to a show he was excited about. This really is not the same as what you were saying, but I did want to throw that out there.

Post by rooconteur on Mar 4, 2009 13:23:32 GMT -5

That are way too many (extremely easy to obtain) substances floating around bonnaroo to let a 12 year old walk around by himself. A 12 year old's brain is not fully developed and the negative side effects of these substances cause exponentially more harm to an adolescent brain than a fully developed one.

A 12 year old could easily over-indulge, even if it's just beer and pass out. Which is fine, if its not 95º with no shade. Heat Stroke is not good.

At 24, I'm concerned about my own safety/hydration/making it home alive....A 12 year at Roo is a recipe for disaster. I'm sure people have stories about going to shows/festivals when they were younger, but Bonnaroo is a different beast than an arena show, where security would be on your ass for sparking one up. Everyhting is available and basically legal on the farm for 4 days.

Post by lakai2788 on Mar 4, 2009 15:14:57 GMT -5

this reminds of 06, we were hanging out at our camp site and some girl wondered over and just started bsing with us we eventually find out she is 15 and she doesnt really remember where she camped out. So we try everything to jog her memory but she was pretty trashed so I offer to walk around with her to help her find her camp site after like an hour she says she sees it and just runs off. I go back to my camp site and pass the F out finally, when I wake up in the morn she was sleeping on the ground outside our tent all curled up, it was pretty freaky.

Post by fiveleavesleft on Mar 4, 2009 21:39:31 GMT -5

my advice:

don't take your 12 year old kid to 'roo. go to disney world or something, I never went to any festivals until I was 18 and I don't feel like I missed out on any part of my childhood.

edit: +1 karma to you kidz jam for caring about the kids at 'roo. while i dont think there should be kids at 'roo, its great to know that since they're allowed there are people that take their time to look out for them.

Post by Kidz Jam on Mar 5, 2009 8:14:09 GMT -5

Fiveleavesleft,

Thanks for the kudos! I've brought my kids to a lot of festivals (not Bonnaroo...it's my working vacation), but I have to admit that it is a very different weekend. You are constantly redirecting them toward the positive aspects of the festival, going to bed early and curbing your party style. That's if it is done right. I hate to say it, but so many parents need to be told this stuff and so many kids have scary weekends because the parents haven't been given any guidelines, tips or help.

Whether we want them to or not, people are going to bring their kids to fests, even the big ones like Bonnaroo. Since they are there, Kidz Jam might as well be there to offer the kids cold water, sunblock and snacks as well as really talk to the parents about the importance of earplugs and stranger safety.

As festival fans are getting older, we are seeing a lot more of them bringing the kids, so I think that it is a reflection of the fan dedication to continuing the festival lifestyle. It is my hope that if more festivals have a support system for parents so that the know the RIGHT way to do a weekend with the kids.

I think that a lot of people assume we are paid by the festival to be there, but we are not. That ensures that the festival never drops us to cut costs. We don't usually receive a lot of 'thanks' because people believe they paid for our services in the child's ticket price.

Post by Meg on Mar 5, 2009 9:05:43 GMT -5

In my mind - ya'll do a GREAT job!!! I am not the type to ever bring my kids to a festival - but that is just me because that is always my vacation away from the kids - one week out of the year makes me a better parent for the rest of the year.

I think if parents bring their kids and understand that it really is no different the Disney World - then all is good. I mean - really - would you let your 12 year old run off by himself at Disney World???

Post by pondo ROCKS on Mar 5, 2009 15:21:57 GMT -5

I saw a bad situation occur at Woodstock 99. On Saturday Afternoon, My group spotted a 9 year old boy sitting by himself near a trash can. Did not think a whole lot about it at first, we went off and watched an act (Wyclef I do believe), then, on our way back to camp to eat, we saw the same kid by the same garbage can.

I asked him why he was sitting there alone and he said his dad went with some new friends to "enjoy themselves" and for him to wait there for his return. He was "left" there at noon, it was going on 4 p.m. when I talked to him. We (my group) was trying to figure out what to do. I wanted to take him to the lost station they had set up, but luckly, his dad came strolling up right as we were about to leave. The problem I had was this...you could tell the dad was beyond wasted on something and yet here he was, walking off with his son with whom he LEFT NEAR A GARBAGE CAN FOR 4 HOURS!

Not sure if this helps clear anything up, but there are parents out there that get caught up in "extra activities" at Roo that may have similar judgement.

Providing an outlet and a voice for music lovers to unite under the common theme of music for all. Join The Pondo Army to show your allegiance to musical freedom! Fighting for no censorship of the arts & music education in schools, The Pondo Army will triumph! The Pondo Army Movement
Follow me on twitter@Pondoknowsbest

Post by wolfmanjess on Mar 5, 2009 15:33:50 GMT -5

^Well there is certainly a difference in that, and letting a 12 year old go up front for a show, with a designated meeting place. Personally I think parents who enjoy "extra activities" when their children are around need to have their kids taken away. The Baby at AllGood this year was a real bad situation. If momma wook had not come back when she did, I would have handed that kid off to security as soon as Bunny got him cooled off in her car. Those folk were enjoying "extra activities" way too much to have a kid with them.

Post by rooconteur on Mar 5, 2009 18:28:40 GMT -5

I think if parents bring their kids and understand that it really is no different the Disney World - then all is good. I mean - really - would you let your 12 year old run off by himself at Disney World???

pedophiles are scarier than hippies

And Kudos to KidzJam,. It's great to know that you guys are proactively talking to the parents, and have water and stuff for the kids. Honestly last year I thought it was just an inflatable bouncy thing for people to dump their kids.

Post by norman on Mar 5, 2009 20:15:49 GMT -5

This is a good thread. From all the responses, I agree it should go without saying that Bonnaroo and no 4 day festivals like it are places for children. I wouldn't advise anyone under 17 to be there. Just like you said, rooconteur, I go there hoping I make it home alive myself! lol!

Post by viciouscircle on Mar 5, 2009 20:56:02 GMT -5

I think if parents bring their kids and understand that it really is no different the Disney World - then all is good. I mean - really - would you let your 12 year old run off by himself at Disney World???

pedophiles are scarier than hippies

Those two categories are by no means mutually exclusive. And the pervasive fantasy that they are, with the lack of caution such a belief tends to propagate, is one of the best reasons why most people should not bring their kids to Roo. Kudos to Kidz Jam for being the voice of reason and reality and watching out for the kids.

Post by Sassbox! on Mar 5, 2009 21:14:24 GMT -5

My concern with a young child (anyone under the age of 16) would be what would happen if during the time I was separated from the child and the designated meet up time something should happen. I wouldn't necessarily trust strangers to handle an emergency after some of the things I've read on this board.

Post by moonbeemz on Apr 2, 2009 6:40:52 GMT -5

I have taken my girl to Wakarusa 3x (ages 10-12). Never to Roo.

We did have issues with people being too loud, too messed up in family camping at Waka. I got cursed at for extremely politely asking people to turn down the stereo because a 10 y.o. kid was trying to sleep. I did go back when they turned it up five minutes later. I was polite then too, just like with a fractious kindergartener. I was so happy when they found a different spot the next day.

The furthest she went from me was being personally visually supervised at the beach or hula hooping with the twirlers. We always set up a meeting point before the few timeswe separated (not camp, too far for a kid - a statue or a specific refreshment stand). Phones help but they are not a panacea. She was 12 yet she got hit on by an almost graduated college kid.

The funny part is, I had actually corresponded with this fella about details of that fest. He was very helpful and sincere and was an A-Ok person. I really liked him when I met him in person.

He was appropriately horrified when I quietly informed him that is was not my buddy but the pre-teen I had told him was coming with me.

Roo is a lot harsher environment than Waka ever was. Mudpits or dustbowls. Don't get me wrong, I love it! But it's not a place for most minors.

Post by Spearit on May 15, 2009 23:16:30 GMT -5

Rooconteur, you are SO right.I knew of a kid that was lost at a rainbow gathering for many hours and when his parents found him the next day he was not in his right mind and has never been the same since. He is nearly 30 now. It is so sad.

Post by natattack on May 18, 2009 16:48:04 GMT -5

wow, i didnt know kidz jam was volunteers... major kudos!

i think kids at roo depends a lot on the individual maturity and endurance of an individual child; however i would err on the side of caution when it comes to supervision. yeah you can have a meet up place and time... but do you really want to deal with that sinking feeling in your stomach when you're there on time, but an hour later your kid isnt there, they're somewhere amid a crowd 80,000 strong?

16 or 17 i could see letting go off with a friend or something... but 12? seems iffy to me