I was wondering if anyone could tell me of any styles of gung fu with a good repetoire of dim mak. Im not asking for particular schools, just a style. I know that southern praying mantis has a lot of dim mak techniques but it is a very hard style to find an instuctor in. Any other styles out there? Thanks in advance.

Any reasonable Kung Fu or Karate school will contain a "vital points" system. Those that have it inherent in their systems will use the old names in Japanese or Chinese and not the TCM points. Dim Mak only refers to "press meridian" and is not the only system, (it could be just massage).

Good dayDonít confuse vital points and pressure pointsA pressure point is a place on the body where a signal or message can be entered directly into the nervous system. A vital point is for example the eyes or throat.

Bossman, "Dim Mak only refers to "press meridian" and is not the only system, (it could be just massage)" .I though Dim Mak meant "death touch", if thats the case thats one killer massage, pardon the pun.

dim mak is a system in and off its self. It includes pressing rubbing striking tearing meridians/points. For more information you might want to look into a sub art called chin na (qinna) it is shoalin grappling and has many dim make applications to it

dim mak- is also not just death touch but delayed death touch it is accomplished by striking certian nerve bundles/meridians which cut of the flow of chi

Well... excuse my forgetfullness but.... Dim Mak means press meridian, then there are other terms for "press Blood" (Dim Tsu) and press tendons and yet another term (can't remember the Cantonese) for Death Touch. My memory fails me and I appreciate that many people use the term Dim Mak for death touch but it's not the one used in HK Kung Fu circles..... Maybe I should've written them down at the time...

In the old days when studying Kung Fu, secret techniques would be passed down to students who were deemed worthy of learning so they would learn Dim Mak but in many Kung Fu styles if you could hurt maim or kill, you should be able to heal as well so thats what they were taught. So a lot of practitioners used to study medicine and use pressure points for healing as well!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shaolinboy:In the old days when studying Kung Fu, secret techniques would be passed down to students who were deemed worthy of learning so they would learn Dim Mak but in many Kung Fu styles if you could hurt maim or kill, you should be able to heal as well so thats what they were taught. So a lot of practitioners used to study medicine and use pressure points for healing as well![/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate that most Kyusho circles, have lost the healing aspect of the arts. If you only practise the combat/ destruction side of the arts how then can you find the balance that was originally supplied by the healing aspects especially when talking about pressure points?

Hi Kevin: To the best of my knowledge, Tai-Chi incorporates Din Mak or Dim-Mak techniques. Some consider Dim-Mak a discipline or study in and of itself. Mr. Earle Montaigue has written and published many books on the subject. You may also want to look into accupuncture, massage and healing arts that manipulate meridians and the flow of "chi" because these are related. The Japanese art of Kyusho-jitsu, of which George Dillman, of Pennsylvannia, is an authority in the U.S., is also a study in pressure point striking and manipulation. I hope that helps. Good luck in your search!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin:I was wondering if anyone could tell me of any styles of gung fu with a good repetoire of dim mak. Im not asking for particular schools, just a style. I know that southern praying mantis has a lot of dim mak techniques but it is a very hard style to find an instuctor in. Any other styles out there? Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]

you can go to www.ryushu.com for a listing of Taika Oyatas RYTU TE schools. He is IMHO the best person in the US to get this inofrmation. There is also instructors listed at WWW.DRAGONSOCIETY.COM for Tom Muncy/Rick Moneymakers side of these teachings.Between these two and Dillamns associates you should be able to locate a good instructor. I feel if you can find a OYATA school that is the place to go. Taika introduced DILLMAN/MONEYMAKER/MUNCY to KYUSHO ( striking points) and TUITE( joint manipulation).

Bagua Zhang, and Taijichuan use it extensively, almost exclusively in their striking. Good luck finding any teacher of traditional gong fu or internal methods that knows this knowledge.

Unfortunately nowdays, you will see mostly karate schools that teach "Dim Mak" (if you can even call it that). Don't go to a place where they offer to knock you out, or teach it on someone that does nothing, or throws a measly slow punch or kick that they know is coming. Knowledge of these arts is disjointed, disorganized, and abused in the wrong ways nowdays, be wary.

Quote:Well... excuse my forgetfullness but.... Dim Mak means press meridian, then there are other terms for "press Blood" (Dim Tsu) and press tendons and yet another term (can't remember the Cantonese) for Death Touch. My memory fails me and I appreciate that many people use the term Dim Mak for death touch but it's not the one used in HK Kung Fu circles..... Maybe I should've written them down at the time...

Something many karate schools seem to do. There is no such thing as a "death touch." Dim Mak really refers to applying pressure, usually through Chin na, to the points. While Da Mak refers to finger stabbing (by striking) the points.

Learn how to heal, and cure others of ailments through using acupuncture/acupressure knowledge, that is the real way of understanding Dim Mak. Other than that, you will have half-transmitted knowledge of striking.

Edited by BaguaMonk (05/10/0512:02 AM)

_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

Squad 1, show them the Dim Mak instructor unable to KO a tiny female reporter video!

Squad 2, bust out UFC 1-4!

Squad 3, Do an analysis of the horrible, aspergers-drenched yellow fever that leads to people believing in "dim mak"!

Ready...Go!

I'll do the rest.

Now that i've deployed my fight short wearing, iron pumping legions of doom, i'd like to tell you the main point of my story.

There.

Is.

No.

Such.

Thing.

As.

A.

Death.

Touch.

None.

In addition to the numerous "death touch" claimants being beat down in the abovementioned easily downloadable videos, the fact that there are no medical mechanisms by which such a thing could work under the stress of fighting and the lack of millions of unexplained deaths a year due to people accidentally hitting themselves or others in these "points" (ESPECIALLY in combat sports) should be enough to convince you.

I always appreciate a smart ass And you do it better than many! I chuckled for minutes!

Problem is, sometimes Smart-asses leave out the smart.

You were doing great right up to the medical mechanisms and the millions of deaths part( I'm not too bright myself or I could figure out a way to make this machine quote you).

There are thousands of deaths every year in the US alone (You don't want to be bothered with the world wide numbers) involving people being killed inexplicably by touch,grab,push,light blunt force,etc.

There are medical mechanisms that do work under the stress of fighting or adrenaline dump, which ever you prefer.

This in no way gives credance to death touch proponents. Nor does it take away from Hedgehogey. It is what it is!

I understand completely. I never like the facts to get in the way of a good example, especially when I'm trying to be a smart-ass

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P.S Do you have Ashida Kims phone number?

_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

I'd have to recommend what I study. My school is associated with Kyusho International (kyusho.com). I believe this is a very strong way to study because:

We practice everything IN MOTION. It is no longer appropriate to practice in a static manner. It has limited value in terms of learning point location angle and direction, but no martial value. Drills in motion is the way to learn.

Secondly, we are moving away from traditional Chinese medicine explanations for what we do. K.I. has empirical research in modern western medicine explaining what we do and that it is safe. Safety of the practitioners is job #1. One of my best training experiences this year, for example, was to go to a medical college where one of the doctors in KI arranged for us to view a cadaver and see the anatomy of the arm from neck to below the wrist, and see our pressure points.

Thirdly, healing is a part of EVERY lesson. No one should practice pressure points without healing. If you can't heal what you have hurt then you are not respecting your uke and are behaving in an unethical manner.

Fourthly, one doesn't have to abandon one's school or style to study Kyusho. It is something that can be added to the style you've spent years working on. You don't have to start all over again.

You were doing great right up to the medical mechanisms and the millions of deaths part( I'm not too bright myself or I could figure out a way to make this machine quote you).

Click on the quote button. Or type [ quote] at the beggining of the text you want quote and [ /quote] at the end, without the spaces.

Quote: There are thousands of deaths every year in the US alone (You don't want to be bothered with the world wide numbers) involving people being killed inexplicably by touch,grab,push,light blunt force,etc.

Really? By what mechanisms? Are these reported in legitimate medical journals? Because you would think that this would be a matter of urgency for doctors.

That's an addition to the fact that MMAists and other people involved in combat sports get struck all over their bodies with HARD force, and yet there has been only one death (due to a preexisting medical condition, with a fighter who never should have been allowed to fight) in the history of MMA.

In fact, if it were possible to kill someone with moderate force, going to a massage parlor would mean risking your life (actually, you do risk getting crabs at certain parlors, but that's another story).

Quote:I'd have to recommend what I study. My school is associated with Kyusho International (kyusho.com). I believe this is a very strong way to study because:

You do realize that there is a video floating around the web of a K.I. instructor being unable to use a single "pressure point" attack against a tiny female reporter AND a BJJ student?

Quote:We practice everything IN MOTION. It is no longer appropriate to practice in a static manner. It has limited value in terms of learning point location angle and direction, but no martial value. Drills in motion is the way to learn.

Is this accompanied by hard sparring? If so, how is it done?

Quote:Secondly, we are moving away from traditional Chinese medicine explanations for what we do. K.I. has empirical research in modern western medicine explaining what we do and that it is safe.

Combat sports, thats a contridiction there is no such thing. Combat is kill or be killed, thats mainly why it tends to refer to weapons, mma isnt and sports isnt, get that straight. Dimmak and kyusho does work, an example of a dimmak strike would be a strike to the throat with a shuto, no gloves or safety equipment to pad the strike, that can and will kill if done right from causing the attackers throat to swell---------THATS DIMMAK. Another example would be a technique in military combatives that involves throwing the attacker to the ground and kicking him in the temple(a dimmak point) or stomping on this throat<-------------THATS DIMMAK . Another factor to why there arent deaths in most competitions, that would ummmm lets see maybe safety equipment such as gloves and such to cushion strikes, and maybe the fact that the athletes arent there to kill each other. In boxing people get knocked out from solar plexus strikes and jaw strikes all the time which are possiable dimmak points if enough force is used, and if the boxers can knock out with gloves on what do you think a professional could do without them on. Dimmak does exist and it does work, no it isnt a touch or a pinch or rubbing a point to kill a person. It is mainly methods of striking or crushing areas to kill or disable. If you still dont believe in dimmak ask any judge or lawyer about one hit homicide it does exist and happened around here as a matter of fact a guy punched another in the side of the head and caused a clot to form that killed him..............thats dimmak.

There are NOT thousands of deaths due to ANY pressure point applications in the US. If anyone is going to make claims like this then back it up with facts. Provide a link to a legitimate news source covering the death and attributing it to the use of pressure points.

_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Laf, to be fair it was I, not Hedehogey that posted regarding thousands of deaths in the US. I beleive I said inexplicable NOT specifically pressure point related. However a simple MEDLINE.com search can provide literally hundreds of cases where victims died from inexplicable trauma no more sever than light contact, broken fingers, being grabbed or shaken. None however regarding death by massage

I was trying to make a point to some about getting facts strait, and apparently fell victim to my own hubris by not providing a clear and accurate explanation.

I apologize to all for the confusion. And for being an alarmist

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_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Just to be fair however, the "inexplicable" deaths you mention were NOT caused by delibrate action--no-one tried to kill them with just a touch.To couch a discussion of the dim mak in terms "inexpicable" deaths is not really all that accurate.No more accurate than talking about possible spontanious human combustion and possible effects of when your chi gets all out of wack.

But lets give the Dim Mak every possible break here.

(I had long talk about them with a buddy of mine and his sifu)

-The Dim Mak take YEARS to learn, if you can find anyone that can teach it.

-The Dim Mak requirs the hitting of VERY precise points, hard to do in the melee of a fight.A tiny bit "off" in any direction has no effect.

-In addition the wearing of long shirts (for example) make it hard to actually see where your supposed to strike.And the wearing of heavy cloths, such as winter jacket could well blunt the amount of force it would take to effect the kill.

-Certain strories indicate that there are various treatment that a person can take that will allow them to survive the DImMak.

-Certian stories also indicate that if one is skilled enough that the effect of the DimMAk can be shrugged off.

-Dim Mak requires tha certain areas must be "spotted" at certain times of the day.What happens if your attacked at 9:00 AM and the 1:00 PM spot is not within reach.

-There does not seem to be a "instant" death touch, the majority of the stories deal with delayed deaths.Be a real shame to Dim Mak someone, have them beat you to death then die 3 days later--might make you you feel better and would certainly scare anyone who saw it happen--but it would do you (already being dead and all) no good.

I personally think that the old masters were capable of weird and terrible things.

(on the other hand, Pan Qin Fu once remarked "If the old masters could really jump 30 feet then why did they have stairs in their houses??)

Very interesting discussion!!!!

_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.

I think the HK movie industry has much to be responsible for perpetuating the myth of "dim mak". Even today, you see that same myth being perpetuated in modern productions like "Hidden Tiger Crouching Dragon", or even "Kiss of the Dragon".

"Dim mak" means to touch the pulse. In Chinese medical terms, "qi" is one of the fundamental beliefs, in which the "pulse" can be affected. Understand that the concept of "pulse" in Chinese medicine bears no resemblance to its Western medical counterpart.

A pressure point can be affected by touch stimulation (massage), needles or heat (moxa, hot cupping etc.). The Chinese talk about the internal function of the body in terms of "qi" imbalance and believe that the "qi" of the body can be affected internally (herbs) or via external stimulation (pressure points).

The simplistic explanation in western medical terms is that stimulating the peripheral nervous system affects the automomic nervous system, which in turn, affect the proper functioning of internal organs.

However, the myth of either an instant or delayed death touch is just that - a myth. More than likely an instant death "touch" would be the result of excessive blunt force trauma leading to internal haemorraghing, shock and death. A delayed death "touch" is also more likely the result of internal injuries caused by such trauma.

But, boy, one would have to have really *strong* "qi" to be able to do that - and with 2 fingers like you see in the movies. And quite frankly, I don't think it's possible to "touch" someone in several choice pressure points and have them "freeze" on the spot, or undo the "freeze" by touching a few more points. Or in the case of "Kiss of the Dragon", a needle in a "forbidden point".

On another more interesting note, my wife shared with me this story about her father and a calf he had. This story came up during a conversation about pressure points and the first time she ever heard him swear.

Apparently he "tapped" this calf on the head with a stick to get it to move out of the holding yard, and the darn thing dropped dead.

Of course you are correct CXT. These deaths are in no way intentional(as far as I know). Nor would I attribute them to any type of "Death Touch" training.

I am not trying to compare them to Dim Mak, Kyusho, Tuite, etc. Merely trying to point out that even accidentaly some people drop dead inexplicably.

Funny you should mention spontaneous combustion. My girlfriends mother thinks this will happen every time she gets a "hot flash".

Apologies again to all. My brain sometimes goes a mile a minute and I don't communicate effectively in this medium.

Let me say this. I do not really know what "Dim Mak" is, or what it is not. This term is not one that I use. I do believe in pressure point and vital point striking, and I do practice and teach this. Call it what you will.

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_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Regarding research, I reread my post. Too much enthusiasm. The research is in progress. When Master Pantazi says something, I believe he'll do exactly as he says. This is good in the dojo but not very scholarly in an eclectic forum.

Yes we do have accidental knock-outs in light sparring. We are reminded to go lighter. Control control control. When striking points in moving drills, you go for getting kind of an electric feeling radiating from the point, or a dazed feeling, or more pain than you would otherwise expect from the strike. For accuracy, it is better to practice light. If you hit heavy, you loose the sensation.

If I could ask a question back though, I'm coming from K.I. I did not research every other way to study. What kinds of drills do other people do in their study to learn to attack points in motion? Someone might have a good exercise that I can use. If it improves my training, I would be grateful.

Hmm, its hard to explain drills on a forum. As far as karate goes thats one of the chief purposes of kata. Through kata we learn proper body weapon, angle and positioning. After a student has a grasp of kata, we then take it to 1-3 step drills. In the drills the attacker will target areas with several points, the defender will target and attack a area as well but will also have to defend in one motion. If etheir attack or defense fails the student changes their tactics untill a definate blow or set of blows is accomplished. That teachs a student to improvise and also gives a idea of which methods work better for different body types. That is then followed by full contact sparring at 75 percent power at all ranges, where the student practices creating openings and simultanious offense/defense, as well as how to end the attack as fast as possible. They also learn a form of autokinmatics--using methods to position a attacker for a kill strike. Makiwara training is sometimes used to develop gripping and striking power. Theres also taping small pieces of paper to a punching bag and pratice attacking the points to get accurate when it comes to hitting a moving target. The reason we go for areas containing alot of points is simple. The chances of hitting any one point by instinct through clothing is very unlikely so we target area's containing 5 or more points. I hope you find something usefull in this post as I'm not to good at explaining drills online.

Thank you. To the extent that you can communicate a drill in words without video, you were clear. It sounds like we do some similar exercises.

The training striking small points on a bag would be different. Sparring at 75% would be different for me personally, although I'm pretty sure that other people in the dojo train that way. When I was doing that last time, Shihan came by and wanted to know why we were "slamming" each other. Generally we look for lighter but every once in awhile it is very good to spar stronger because, after all, this isn't quilting class.

We have a variety of specific drills we use that progress and help the learner hit points in motion where the learner moves from knowing where s/he will strike, to having no clue and going for what presents.

I ask because when I read the critics of my style, they often criticize that we don't practice in motion and that we are static. That isn't the way we practice. We practice in motion. If you can't hit in motion and targeting what presents itself in motion, then how good will your art be when you need it in motion and a real perpetrator isn't striking you with one of your memorized kumite? or kata?

We also target clusters of points. This would be especially true for targets on the torso and neck. On the head, arms and legs, I would more likely target specific points. P2 is really cool. SJ 11, which is really 10&11 and SJ 12 are essential for tuite and so on. The wrists, inside of the knees around K10, the ankels around Sp 6 etc are still clusters, even if we call them single points for communication's sake. Anyway, attacking single points like P2, LI 10 would be how we would learn to attack points that are moving instead of the bag. Bag lets you hit harder. That would be an important piece that I am missing.

We do the kata work for targets angle and direction too.

How about other people? Do you have a good exercise that teaches striking points/cavities/targets in motion? Please share.

Everyone has different theorys to what dim mak is or does. As for me what I have been taught and learned from my Sifu is that a dim mak or death touch is like and closely resembles the 1 inch punch mostly aimed at your vital points and looks more like a touch then a hit that is where the term death touch came about. Actually anything aimed at your vital points is deadly the dim mak just disguises it too look like he just touched you. One experience that I felt on myself was when my Sifu used one finger less then an inch away from my solar plexas and tapped me with his finger I fell to the floor and couldnt breath for like 15-20 seconds after I got up all the other students where in shock saying that Sifu just touched you in the chest and you collapsed thats how the legendary dimmak or death touch got started.

Quote:Everyone has different theorys to what dim mak is or does. As for me what I have been taught and learned from my Sifu is that a dim mak or death touch is like and closely resembles the 1 inch punch mostly aimed at your vital points and looks more like a touch then a hit that is where the term death touch came about. Actually anything aimed at your vital points is deadly the dim mak just disguises it too look like he just touched you. One experience that I felt on myself was when my Sifu used one finger less then an inch away from my solar plexas and tapped me with his finger I fell to the floor and couldnt breath for like 15-20 seconds after I got up all the other students where in shock saying that Sifu just touched you in the chest and you collapsed thats how the legendary dimmak or death touch got started.

You guys started it??

I think it should be mandatory for all sifu's to wear deodorant to keep this sort of thing from happening.

_________________________ Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Quote:Everyone has different theorys to what dim mak is or does. As for me what I have been taught and learned from my Sifu is that a dim mak or death touch is like and closely resembles the 1 inch punch mostly aimed at your vital points and looks more like a touch then a hit that is where the term death touch came about. Actually anything aimed at your vital points is deadly the dim mak just disguises it too look like he just touched you. One experience that I felt on myself was when my Sifu used one finger less then an inch away from my solar plexas and tapped me with his finger I fell to the floor and couldnt breath for like 15-20 seconds after I got up all the other students where in shock saying that Sifu just touched you in the chest and you collapsed thats how the legendary dimmak or death touch got started.

You guys started it??

I think it should be mandatory for all sifu's to wear deodorant to keep this sort of thing from happening.

Hello? I didnt say WE started it. Thats how the legend theory of the death touch or dimmak came about a long time ago that has been passed down from generations to generations. Come on Sanchin31 I thought you would have more sense then that.

Quote: Rumble, I took your story literally to add my sarcastic humor. Sorry if I offended you. Now,I don't believe your story about touching the solar plexis and losing your breath. Sorry.

Sorry man no offense taken I just wanted to make it clear that what you said that" we started it", would make other new martial arts enthusiast who are new to this forum confused and to think that I implied that we started the death touch. No hard feelings Sanchin31 I wish you the best of luck in your journeys of martial arts trainings.

Back on subject. Yes Rumble, I have heard of that. I personally have not seen it, however I heard of it from someone I trust to tell the truth.

I have seen other things quite amazing. The most amazing was for someone to be able to make a willing uke pass out from another room, while uke's vital signs were being monitored so that we could see the biological response, which could not be faked. I know this will generate jeers. It is OK. I probably wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen things like this several times.

I personally will never develop that skill, however, the faciniation will keep me studying for a long time. The mind is an amazing place. While I'm hitting and twisting and grabbing points trying to make my hands on martial arts better, I wonder what the potential of the mind really is.

He is right. Death touch does not exist. It looks like a "touch" from perhaps old men who have practiced INTERNAL arts all their lives because they are able to concentrate such vast amounts of mechanical energy into one point. As you get more advandced in internal arts, you can send someone flying by barely moving. It LOOKS like they aren't moving, but their awareness of weight and body mechanics is so natural, and the internal happenings are concealed, that one is able to do the same thing with almost no wasted movement. Internal arts are about putting the mind, body, and soul together, but mostly about learning how to truly move. Thats why motion, slow, and stillness is so essential to practice.

"Fa jing" is useless because you can't kill anyone nowdays. Real Fajing was used in strikes, to cause temporary (or permanent) effects, just like accupressure. There are PLENTY of obvious medical places you could strike, (chops to back of neck, side etc.) which are also found in Dim Mak. Fa jing can be done so close to the body, (even if your finger is touching the point), that perhaps amongst the most advandced internalists, it looks like a "touch.""He made my arm go numb by just touching me!" It wasn't a touch, internally, there is alot of violent direction of energy being led to this one point.

_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...