Posted
by
timothy
on Saturday October 05, 2013 @06:01PM
from the for-discriminating-tastes dept.

New submitter Eunuchswear writes "Congress has passed laws forbidding NASA from allowing Chinese nationals on its premises, so NASA was forced to reject applications from Chinese scientists to attend the upcoming meeting on the Kepler space telescope next month. This ban extends even to Chinese scientists and students working in the USA, angering many American scientists. Geoff Marcy, known for his work on exoplanets, is reported to be boycotting the conference. 'In good conscience, I cannot attend a meeting that discriminates in this way. The meeting is about planets located trillions of miles away, with no national security implications.' he said in an email to the conference organisers."

It's because of all the money that Hong Kong makes. The "one country, two systems" slogan really means "those guys make a lot of money and we don't want to disturb them too much" which is why Hong Kong and Macau are Special Administrative Regions but Tibet is left in the dark.

Although I don't believe the Chinese government charges Hong Kong any tax, so they're not directly benefiting from it directly. I suspect they're trying to use Hong Kong as a gateway investment vehicle for foreign investment and then t

You have never been to Hong Kong it seems. Totally different place than mainland China, not only because of Cantonese, but also extremely fast internet with no internet filtering, cool movies and very cheap prices. I know a lot of people in Shanghai that travel over there just for shopping. Hell you actually need a different visa to get over there so I don't know why you think the Chinese government changed Hong Kong somehow.

Trends... USA does become a more closed and strictly controlled country, however, it is very hard (though possible) to have political opinions censored in America. If every country in the world suddenly aligned their policies on USA, that would be a tremendous step forward.

This is the responsibility of Frank Wolf, R-VA, of the Virginia 10th District. If you should live in the 10th District [wikipedia.org] (in N. Virginia), contact him [house.gov] and let him know what you think about this.

I have met him several times, but have no idea what he really thinks he is accomplishing here.

In all honesty, the bill did have to pass with a majority in both houses and be signed into law by Obama. He may have written or sponsored the original bill, but it's not like Frank Wolf did this on his own.

According to an earlier poster, it wasn't a stand-alone bill, it was included in H.R. 933: Consolidated and Further Continuing Appropriations Act, 2013. So, yet another chance to take a bill required to operate the government used for an unrelated political purpose.

Apparently, this was part of the 2013 Appropriations bill and has be be renewed [politico.com] to stay in force, so anyone has a chance to contact their representative and try and get it changed.

From the article

A portion of a new 2014 spending bill, authored by Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.), would require IT vendors to certify their independence from the Chinese government before they can sell to select U.S. federal agencies. It’s the second time Wolf has backed such language over the objections of critics who say it cou

Wolf thinks he's accomplishing pandering to the conservative majority of his district, and he's absolutely right. Remember, politicians and bureacrats most often make decisions that serve their own interests, not the interests of those they ostensibly represent or the public at large. There's a whole school of economic thought called "public choice" [wikipedia.org] that studies this phenomenon.

I bet the PLA has lots of young, sexy Chinese grad students in America, seducing older, male professors, bugging their computers, taking photos to send back to the mainland, establishing relations with Americans to use in the future for blackmail.

The whole world isn't "blind" since pretty much every country spies on other countries, including China, Russia, Iran, Europe (North, South, East, and West), South American, the US, Canada, India, take your pick.

This should not be accepatable that the US is closing many of its telescopes [slashdot.org] (temporarily) that were doing long term observations and now doing stupid things like politicizing one of the fronteers of human exploration (the search for other planets like our own). Maybe there need to be more people to write to politicians to let them know that there are voters out there that value these things?

NASA was never seen as important (except right at the beginning because it was brand new and the Russians had it and you didn't), and it never will be. People don't give a damn about abstract things. It's not lack of "Star Trek" that makes people uninterested, it's that most people only care about themselves and their immediate surrounding. They have no vision. No understanding. And absolute apathy for anyone trying to get them to do something not directly related to them. That's why this whole system of mo

So. Let me get this straight. A Pfc has access to diplomatic cables and other documents with TS classifications; but a Chinese scientist can't attend a conference where the results are likely to be published in papers with no classification at all.

OK, I haven't read TFA (this is Slashdot) but the summary certainly makes it sound like total incompetence. I wish I could say I was surprised.

I bet I can explain this though. It probably has something to do with what happened at Los Alamos, where a Chinese scientist walked off with some sensitive information. The way to fix that problem was to make sure the sensitive information there was properly classified and restricted to people with the proper clearance. Instead it sounds like they decided to classify... a lot of science. Once again, incompetent.

Iranian scientists which work for government organizations have been banned from publishing in American journals and those journals which do business in the US. As an example science direct and others.

That's government. Now roll your eyes at all the people who are madly in love with their savior and protector, the government. Where do you think America's money problems come from? The PEOPLE aren't paying "their fair share"? No, the government is pissing money away as if their life depended on it. Half of them are trying to encourage people to do stuff that the other half is working actively to stop them from doing. Too many years of complacency, of fattening. Too total a victory in World War II. Nuclear

More like Nationality instead of race. However, Foreign nationals are not typically privileged to all aspects of US law.

Besides, a previous law cannot bar a future law from being passed if they are on the same legislative hierarchy (State verses state, federal verses federal). Only a constitutional amendment can do that and it is limited insofar as another constitutional amendment can undo it. The courts will likely ignore it.

Federal laws prohibit discrimination not just on race, but also "national origin"

But not on citizenship. A Chinese national who acquired, say, Swedish citizenship could attend. A Swede who moved to China and became a Chinese citizen could not. Therefore, it's not discrimination on race or national origin.

But not on citizenship. A Chinese national who acquired, say, Swedish citizenship could attend. A Swede who moved to China and became a Chinese citizen could not. Therefore, it's not discrimination on race or national origin.

Your examples are spot-on, but you're missing how the Civil Rights Act is interpreted.

One test that's applied is whether a government action disproportionately impacts a protected group, whether that's the intent or not. That's what gives things like VoterID law challenges some feet -

Federal laws prohibit discrimination not just on race, but also "national origin"

"National origin" refers to what country a person, or a person's ancestors, are from. What we're talking about here is country of citizenship. By your reasoning, it's discrimination to say that only US citizens can vote in US elections.

Due to the rules that kicked in because of sequestration and other agencies wasting money on conferences, there are a ton of new rules regarding attending meetings... and meetings at a government facility don't have the same restrictions as a that at other locations.

There are a lot of NASA people involved in this particular field... and one of those other restrictions is no more than ~50-60 people from an agency at a give

"Holiday Inn" is a placeholder. Make it the local community college. Create a teleconference, so the Chinese don't have to be on site, and NASA doesn't have to spend money flying people around. For rocket scientists, they don't seem very creative.

From TFA:
The recent Congressional action refers to a broader law passed in July which prohibits Nasa funds from being used to participate or collaborate with China in any way. The law has raised fears among some Nasa-funded scientists that they will have to sever ties with their Chinese collaborators, and no longer take on Chinese students.
weve embraced this schitzophrenic notion that theyre both an ally as well as an enemy. our Frienemy manufacture entire lifestyles for americans, from phones to computers and even the next great bridge to replace the golden gatehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_span_replacement_of_the_San_Francisco%E2%80%93Oakland_Bay_Bridge [wikipedia.org]
To insist your second largest trading partner is so prone to espionage as to warrant eviction from, historically, a great font of collaborative international scientific research of the modern era, misses the point entirely. to insist somehow they might glean some kernel of knowledge from NASA that they would not otherwise discover as a nation that manufactures supercomputers, high speed maglev transportation, and the worlds largest power plant ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam [wikipedia.org] ) is laughable.

this legislation was concocted by the republican party. Any woman or man of science should remember this as "the party that cant." In the past we hosted 7 astronauts aboard the russian space station MIR. Yet somehow today, the country that hasnt moved missiles into cuba, hasnt started proxy wars, and hasnt ginned up anti-american rhetoric is now so dangerous as to be inadmissable in the eyes of a party that as far as i can tell, stopped researching China after the cold war.

weve [sic] embraced this schitzophrenic [sic] notion that theyre [sic] both an ally as well as an enemy.

Who ever said China was an ally? At best, they're a trade partner. They've taken a provocative stance towards our true long term allies in the Western Pacific.

our Frienemy manufacture entire lifestyles for americans, from phones to computers and even the next great bridge to replace the golden gate

Well God bless them. They are ever so nice to us, aren't they? Oddly though, we had phones, computers and bridges before Billy Clinton decided to push for premature and unwarranted PNTR and WTO membership for China. We also had less of a trade imbalance, more engineering and manufacturing jobs, and weren't quite so busy giving away know-how on everyth

and weren't quite so busy giving away know-how on everything, including such strategically important technologies as jet engines.

Oh please. You Americans are so full of yourselves. You think the rest of the world is full of idiots. You know people were talking about jet engines in the 1920's, right? You realize the first working prototypes appeared in the 1930's, right? We're talking what, over 80 years ago? You'd think that in 80 years or so a country with almost 2 billion people might be able to produce a few individuals smart enough to work out and advance on these concepts. The only - the ONLY - reason why America has been a source of innovation is because America is where the money was. So brains were attracted to money, and to America. You got the best minds from all over the world wanting to live in your country. Before America it was Germany. Go back in time to: France. Britain. Venice. You know - where the damned money always is. Where stuff is happening.

But guess what, America? You're out of money. Your country is stagnant. Innovation has gone somewhere else and all you've got left is what once was, and bullshit about how great you guys really think you are. There's plenty of money in Asia. Guess where all the innovation is going to be? You smart enough for that guess? Or you just think there's something magic about your country that makes you guys geniuses and everyone else morons?

I stand corrected, I thought they were at 1.7 not 1.3. Still, actually they do have pretty impressive jets, missiles and rockets. Wait, you're going to tell me they "stole" the rocket tech from you as well, right? lol. ANYTHING can be reverse engineered. Once you know something is possible it's just a matter of money and brainpower to make it happen. Aww hell and you know what? I remember the asian kid from my school days, he was always real shy. And he always got one of the best grades in physics, electron

The obvious consequence of this sort of stupidity is that the Chinese will start leaving the US. Meanwhile, EU are investing heavily in research and so is China. Is it difficult to imagine that in a few years' time not only Chinese scientists, but also European and, for that matter, American, scientists, will be looking to work somewhere that is not the US? And unfortunately this is not just a silly hiccup, it is part of a trend that has shut down most of America's space exploration, as well as a lot of hi

NASA can't 1) be the space engineering source for DoD and 2) be the open space science community for the world. TFA misses the point that political support for these measures was created when NASA knowingly broke rules on employing foreign nationals on classified projects.

Like every other scientist, space scientists need to decide how comfortable they are working on secret projects. In the end, if you take the money, you take the restrictions too. NASA should hand anything Congress wants classified over

Depends on how much of Congress passed it, if it was somehow bipartisan enough to get a veto-proof majority (which has a snowball's chance in hell of happening on any bill with this Congress) then Obama can't do shit. I can't find the law in question in TFA though so I can't figure out how many votes it got.
Chances are he did in fact agree with the law and sign it, but just noting there is a way for Congress to pass a law that the President is against.

Or if the law is stuck as an amendment to a must-pass bill like an appropriations bill, or to something overwhelmingly popular, or something the presidents party has already committed to passing. The completly unrelated rider is a long-established tradition in American politics.

This was sponsored by the Israeli lobby who didn't want to compete with the Chinese for stealing US technology.

I'm not sure the Israelis are that preoccupied with China in particular.. So maybe that's why you got modded down. On the other hand there are a lot of reflexive apologists on/. where Israel is concerned, so maybe some of them modded you down for pointing out the outrageous influence of AIPAC and ADL and such.

One solution would be to give courts the option of striking down a provision of a law if they find it has no relation to the subject of the bulk of the law. But that would need a constitutional amendment.

If memory serves, they passed a law giving Bill Clinton a "line-item veto". This meant he could veto portions of laws and let the rest be passed. However the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional because it essentially gave the president too much power (with some validity in my opinion).

One of the problems of a line item veto is it would allow the president to veto just the funding portion of a bill that is too popular to reject outright. That would effectively kill any ability to enforce the new law.

I'm all for a constitutional amendment that would require all passages of a proposed bill to be relevant to the bill as a whole. So no highway funding bills that outlaw abortion, etc.

If memory serves, they passed a law giving Bill Clinton a "line-item veto". This meant he could veto portions of laws and let the rest be passed. However the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional because it essentially gave the president too much power (with some validity in my opinion).

And now we are in a situation where the House is attempting to "line-item veto" the budget appropriations. Or, failing that, "line-item pass" one.

It's more to do with the fact that NSA is running massive corporate, scientific, industrial and military espionage operations against everyone, particularly Everyone (but EVERYONE is also badly affected). I wouldn't let the Americans within 10 km (SI rules!) of anywhere.

It's more to do with the fact that China is running massive corporate, scientific, industrial and military espionage operations against the West, particularly the US (but Europe is also badly affected). I wouldn't let the Chinese within 10 miles of the place.

In other words you wouldn't let 1/5th of the worlds population within 10 miles of the place.

Everyone is a Chinese spy without any showing without any cause just because some protectionist asshole says.

Oh, so stopping our enemies from stealing from us is now "protectionism".

So lets say you do ban all Chinese peeps from attending your astronomy conference who is to say the Chinese won't just hire a citizen of a different nation to spy for them? Your safeguard to keep the Chinese from spying on you just became worthless.

As a practical matter wouldn't it be better if you have security concerns at a facility where a conference is held to address those specifically... x areas are offlimits... a,b,c are guarded...etc.

And the US is not running massive corporate, scientific, industrial and military espionage operations against everyone? I'm sorry what was the point of saying what you did? The cat is out of the bag - can't act all innocent and offended any more.

We should kick all american scientist out of europe's science project, nay, the world's science project, since the NSA and America is spying on us and misusing it to favorize their own industrial firms.

If you're a mercenary --- someone who does research for corporate profit --- then you worry about spies.If you're a scientist --- someone who does research for the joy of discovery and advancement of human knowledge --- then you don't.

For the projects I work on as a scientist, I don't care if every other collaborator is a Chinese spy. Well, perhaps I do care --- I'm tickled pink that someone else gives a damn about what I'm researching. If China's Politburo gets hold of our results a week before we toss the

But the US has decided this year that poor people with easily and cheaply treated diseases should be allowed to live. After only 230 years, and only about 100 years after the rest of the western world decided that it'd make them monsters not to! How can you not consider that humanitarian!

If the US has given away "shit for free" to a "worthless" country, it's because it served some diplomatic or strategic purpose, not because it is a paragon of generosity. Nothing wrong in furthering one's cause, but to say that it was largesse is specious, at best.

And before the Revolutionary War, the people in what we'd call the US were British. But come on, we all know that the social climate right before becoming a country might as well be considered as such.

So we punish scientists for the actions and policies enacted by politicians and businessmen? The scientists and students are not the ones responsible, in fact it's a generally accepted trend that they tend to be more liberal and open minded than the aggressive pricks in charge (in any country). You can flip that argument right around on us too.

You obviously don't know how research works. If you did, you wouldn't be using the phrase "allow their citizens to study and work here". American universities aren't "allowing" the Chinese, Indian, Eastern European and other nationalities' students to study here, they are profiting from those students working for them for a pittance here. Trust me, if American citizens were clogging up the system of doctoral programs in STEM then no university would be going through the strenuous process of getting foreign students to do the drudgework for their research standing glory. I'm a foreigner (not Chinese but that doesn't frikking matter) with a doctorate in engineering who is working here in the US. I'm sick and tired of short-sighted and downright Tea Party-esque nutsacks like you. We had a bunch of those crazies protesting outside our company a couple of years ago chanting the you-took-our-jobs mantra. I'd have liked to have gone down to ask how many of those ignoramuses had a doctorate in electrical engineering like myself, but I was afraid one of them might pull a legally owned and carried handgun and frikking kill me with it.

Our company on average pays about $40K to get a foreigner like me into the country. This doesn't include the cost of sending teams of engineers overseas to conduct interviews. Do you nitwits really think they would ever do that if they could find Americans who were capable of doing the same thing? I hire for our company now, and I know for a fact that we prefer Americans, as we damn well should, since this is America. However, we sometimes go for months without finding the right candidates because H1B season is over.

Finally, you're whining about China cyberspying on the US? Seriously? Is your high horse made of an alloy of Forgetnewseum and Ironyblindium? In this day and age of NSA scandals is when you decide to take umbrage at "billions of Chinese cyberattacks per day"? You're outraged at China's cyberattacks a few weeks after it became known that the US government spied on diplomatic exchanges and on diplomats themselves?!

Trust me, if American citizens were clogging up the system of doctoral programs in STEM then no university would be going through the strenuous process of getting foreign students to do the drudgework for their research standing glory.

Perhaps Americans aren't clogging the system because it doesn't pay for them to. For decades plenty of Americans got STEM Ph.D.'s. The problem was that, due to the high demand for them, they got paid decently. Fortunately the National Science Foundation (a trade association for academia paid for by the US government) recognized this problem in the 1980's, and discussed how a vast increase in student visas could lower the price of employing Ph.D.'s. Unsurprisingly, it worked!

Our company on average pays about $40K to get a foreigner like me into the country.

You think $40k is a lot of money? That (hopefully) represents only a fraction of the burdened labor cost for employing someone for a year.

Do you nitwits really think they would ever do that if they could find Americans who were capable of doing the same thing?

What does "capable" mean? If you mean have the mental ability, oddly there was an adequate supply of Americans before the flood of students visas. I doubt you're calling Americans dumb though, so I presume you mean obtained their Ph.D.'s. There was also an adequate supply. Why that's no longer the case was explained above.

sometimes go for months without finding the right candidates

Since you're looking for highly educated and specialized people, something would be wrong if it didn't take months to find them. The typical attitude of someone involved in hiring today is that they should be able to get highly qualified people as quickly and easily as you can hire burger flippers. At one point, before other options opened up, American companies understood that talent was something you had to look hard for, and they both invested in and made an effort to retain such people. Such people didn't get canned because business is down this quarter, and the Great Minds of the stock analysts want to see expenses trimmed by almost as much as the CEO's salary. Thinking beyond the next quarter, companies didn't can such people because they knew it would be difficult to find comparable talent when business turned up the next quarter.

Last I heard no university was turning away qualified American citizens in favor of foreigners for STEM doctoral programs. The pittance I was talking about is the same the World over. No one pays extravagant amounts to doctoral students. When I was a PhD student I was also the stereotypical dirt-poor grad student as well. If an Indian/Chinese/whatever PhD student can get by with x amount of dollars a month, why can't an American? Specially when you consider most of them come from families poor enough that they send money back home as well.

Perhaps Americans aren't clogging the system because it doesn't pay for them to. For decades plenty of Americans got STEM Ph.D.'s. The problem was that, due to the high demand for them, they got paid decently. Fortunately the National Science Foundation (a trade association for academia paid for by the US government) recognized this problem in the 1980's, and discussed how a vast increase in student visas could lower the price of employing Ph.D.'s. Unsurprisingly, it worked!

Are you arguing that STEM PhDs don't get paid decently anymore? I call shenanigans (love this Americanism), because either you aren't in the right industry or you don't know what you're talking about. By my third year of employment, I was making comfortable six figures a year here in the US. If you consider a six figure salary not decent then you have expenses the likes of which I can't even imagine.

You think $40k is a lot of money? That (hopefully) represents only a fraction of the burdened labor cost for employing someone for a year.

I do think that $40K is a lot of money, when it is compared to $0K. Corporations are in the business of making money. If they can save $40K while hiring someone, they damn well should, it's their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do that. I'm sure the company you work for considers $500 only a small fraction of the total burdened labor cost for employing you a year, lets see you ask them to pay you that much extra this year and see how that goes, shall we?

What does "capable" mean? If you mean have the mental ability, oddly there was an adequate supply of Americans before the flood of students visas. I doubt you're calling Americans dumb though, so I presume you mean obtained their Ph.D.'s. There was also an adequate supply. Why that's no longer the case was explained above.

By capable I mean exactly what that English word means. And of course there was an adequate supply before the flood of student visas, but the demand was low too. If you think that the World of the 1960s needed as many engineers and scientists as the World of 2013, then oh dear, we have a problem.

Since you're looking for highly educated and specialized people, something would be wrong if it didn't take months to find them. The typical attitude of someone involved in hiring today is that they should be able to get highly qualified people as quickly and easily as you can hire burger flippers. At one point, before other options opened up, American companies understood that talent was something you had to look hard for, and they both invested in and made an effort to retain such people. Such people didn't get canned because business is down this quarter, and the Great Minds of the stock analysts want to see expenses trimmed by almost as much as the CEO's salary. Thinking beyond the next quarter, companies didn't can such people because they knew it would be difficult to find comparable talent when business turned up the next quarter.

This is pretty much the only thing I can agree with you on. Although no one in my industry expects to find someone as easily

Last I heard no university was turning away qualified American citizens in favor of foreigners for STEM doctoral programs.

Nor did I even suggest they were, so your rebuttal makes no sense.

No one pays extravagant amounts to doctoral students.

Again, I didn't even suggest they did. What are you rebutting?

If an Indian/Chinese/whatever PhD student can get by with x amount of dollars a month, why can't an American?

The question is not whether they can, but whether it's worth it. An average American engineer who chooses to go for his Ph.D. will reach a payback point after he's retired! There is an economic disincentive for Americans. By contrast foreign Ph.D. students have the incentive of getting a US work visa. If they come from a poor country

A lot of people abuse the American system, from people on food stamps to Mexicans crossing the border, people with student visas that end up staying over there, etc, etc. The fact that Americans are doing a lot of business in China render your point invalid. Because if you don't like them, why do you keep investing over there? Hollywood is spending big on China, with massive advertising. All this hatred towards China coming from America is truly disturbing, especially so after you spend some time in China,

Billions of Chinese cyberattacks per day on American companies are the issue. Planets trillions of miles away? Not so much. Any honest analysis shows that China is "borrowing" knowledge from the USA as fast as humanly possible. It's enough of a courtesy that we do indeed allow their citizens to study and work here. We've done a fair job of maintaining decent civil and trade relationships despite a strained rivalry. Beyond that, the Chinese government and military apparatus can always take some responsibility for improving the relationship further.

Considering the history of your country and behavior of your government, I seriously can not believe you are saying this with a straight face.

Not so much pot as black hole in this case. It's pretty much obvious at this point that vast majority of government backed attacks are made by US. They are the ones with by far the most resources, means and control over necessary companies and infrastructure. Not to mention expertise.