You can't deny that people can change. Not to mention that tvtropes.org has two sections called "jerk with a heart of gold" and "even evil has standards.". In other words, just because someone's arrogant doesn't make them evil. Some of my favorite shows, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Firefly, have shown that group stereo-types are not often true. Deep Space Nine showed Cardassians that were against the Occupation of the planet Bajor and its people (if you haven't seen Star Trek, think of what the Nazis did in World War II and you'll have a general idea of the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor) and on Firefly when a rich doctor named Simon discovered how the government was torturing his sister, he gave up everything to come to her rescue. Even without knowing all this, some of the Martians probably have children. Of course it could just be that Luke, Tom, and Helen have the worst luck in the galaxy and met people that represented the worst of the civilization (that's happened to me before).

It begins with the premise of Atlas Shrugged, which is basically: There are a few people who are super-intelligent and who are the only one that matter. And once they leave society, the rest of us will die from our inability to think. Yes, this two sentences are a short summary of the actual novel "Atlas Shrugged", and Ayn Rand did mean it serious. Dead serious. And in some circles this novel is taken very seriously too, even today. A society which is based on this novel is made up from people which are well beyond deceit. Which is the starting point of the so-called civilisation there.

Then there is the group pressure. Someone living in the society at large is influenced by many factors and many people. Or they might become mellow just by themself. But once they are on Mars, beyond Earth's reach, they will reinforce the belief of each other. And anyone who has second thoughts would fast become isolated - unless he got back to party line. Meaning: Even someone with a heart of gold will try to play the callous conceited type. Or more likely become the conceited type, eventually. And should someone advocate "Earth people rights" too much ... well remember what Sarah said in the Bossfight Tom-Sarah about people who do not fit in...

The third reason is also linked with the isolation: At the same time as the peer pressure increases, Earth people become a faint memory. It will become more difficult to feel the issues they struggle with. And of course, the less Mars-people know Earth people, they more easily they can project their fears on them. All of which makes it more difficult to feel empathy.

Finally, there is the time factor. If left alone for decades, they might have changed. After a few centuries, they would certainly have changed. But a few years is just enough time to become hardened.

My point still stands, people are not the Borg Collective, we can't be programmed to think the same thought as a whole. I'm reading Atlas Shrugged and a blogger's recap of it due to my ignorance of how the business world works (that and I'm have trouble paying attention while I'm reading it) so I can compare it to Bionic Heart 2 when I review the game (the things I do for a well-written review). I'm also well-aware that Ayn Rand has her own cult with many government officials calling the poor lazy, which is ironic considering that I think many of these people are being supported by their own parents and wouldn't know what to do if they suddenly lost it all. I'm not sure if you realize this, but Ayn Rand's idealistic utopia sounds like a tyranny where individual thought is against the law and considering that all of the so-called good guys in Atlas Shrugged have the exact same interests and beliefs, I think that's exactly what it would be. For all we know, there are a group of people wearing the mask of supporters while secretly planning to overthrow the tyrannical government, as history has pointed out that in every tyranny there has been a rebellion. My point is that I don't think there's any justification for

Spoiler:

Luke committing mass murder on Earth or Mars

. Either way, you still end up murdering the few good people just because you judge the entire population to be the same. Take the movie Elysium. While it portrays the rich as assholes and the poor as the people who were screwed over by the rich, critics have said that it's every bit as simplistic as Atlas Shrugged from a different perspective. Though, in all honesty, it's a little hard to be deep in a two hour movie.

My point still stands, people are not the Borg Collective, we can't be programmed to think the same thought as a whole.

People are not the Borg collective, but the Mars as portrayed would have chosen themself and being chosen by the others for having a certain mind on the outset. And they congratulated each other on this mind set. Such groups are not unknown on earth, in real history books. It often did not end well...

My point is that I don't think there's any justification for

Ah well, I fear there were too many spoilers written down anyway, maybe I should get back and add a warning...

Back to "justification": The player can chose. The game just offers an option. Killing is bad, but do not blame the gun.

Yes, I've not read those books and don't know much about what you're talking about, but it's quite misleading when players say "this is wrong" in a game where there's a choice... If the choice was "kill mr. X with a gun" or "kill mr. X with a knife" ok, but if you can choose to do an action or not, I don't think is fair.

Actually, by the way you were talking, I thought you felt it was justified. I think that the game's against it because the endings that result are not happy ones. Still, I try to avoid debates because I let my emotions get in the way but I'm learning to control myself. That, and I've let my opinion be known before and the consequences were disastrous but if I'm going to have a blog, I can't keep my opinions bottled up inside. Thanks for the practice and I hope that I haven't offended you in any way. Now I'm getting that the situation in Elysium was different from Bionic Heart 2. In Elysium, a bunch of rich people purchased tickets to a space station in the sky. In Bionic Heart 2, it's like the in-crowd in high school. Keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you.

jack1974 wrote:Yes, I've not read those books and don't know much about what you're talking about, but it's quite misleading when players say "this is wrong" in a game where there's a choice... If the choice was "kill mr. X with a gun" or "kill mr. X with a knife" ok, but if you can choose to do an action or not, I don't think is fair.

I wasn't saying that, I just misunderstood what Lonestar51 was trying to say and for that I'm sorry. This is why I try to avoid debates. Oh, and Elysium isn't a book, it's a movie.

suburbantimewaster wrote:Still, I try to avoid debates because I let my emotions get in the way but I'm learning to control myself. That, and I've let my opinion be known before and the consequences were disastrous but if I'm going to have a blog, I can't keep my opinions bottled up inside. Thanks for the practice and I hope that I haven't offended you in any way.

It was a fun debate. No, you did not go to far, as far as I am concerned. I hope I did not too (and that I did not write too many spoilers...)

suburbantimewaster wrote:Actually, by the way you were talking, I thought you felt it was justified. I think that the game's against it because the endings that result are not happy ones.

I have no love, not the least, for the Mars society or for the people there. I think i can understand where they come from, and why they are that way, which just makes me like them even less. Still, I do not want to become just as bad or worse, only in a different direction.