You raise a good point about the Bible...that it was written by people, often under the control and guidance of kings or other ruling types, who had the power of life and death over the translators...the King James Version, for example.

I've looked and looked for something the Bible might say specificly about abortion, such as it's supposed breaking some law supposedly handed down by God on a stone tablet, no doubt, and I think it's all open to interpretation. As to God himself, that's a "whole other" debate, isn't it?

Glad to see you posting on the board, beatneck. It's been carly and me for awhile, except for a few who came, posted a few times, and decided this wasn't the place for them for their own reasons. This is a good board, and all we need are a few more posters, those willing to stay and agree and/or disagree.

This information comes from a book entitled "Losing Faith in Faith," by Dan Barker. The book is readily available at bookstores and at Amazon.com

Mr. Barker writes:

"Hosea 13:16 shows the Old Testament's respect for life: The Lord says, "Thou shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces and their women with child shall be ripped up."

The New Testament says nothing about abortion...Jesus and Paul give all sorts of minute details about living, but they are silent about abortion. Paul tells women what to wear.... in 1 Timothy 2:9, but says nothing about what to do with a problem pregnancy.

The Biblical silence does nothing to deter the faithful, however. They continue to base their views on the command to "be fruitful, and multiply. and replenish the earth." Well, I've got news for you...it's been replenished and replenished, and replenished again!

Nor is the Bible "pro-family" ...only once does any word similar to "family" occur in the Bible...that word is patra and occurs only three times in the Greek, but it is always used in the general sense of "family" of humankind, not the unit known as Mom, Dad, and kids.

Jesus' words in Luke 14:26, "If any man come to me, and hate not, his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethen, and sister, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." This is hardly pro-family!"

Ruth Green in the Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible wrote, "It's what Jesus doesn't say that is more a key to his attitude toward women than what he says or does. For instance, he doesn't say that Eve was wrongly blamed...that the Mosaic law is cruelly demeaning to women, that women need not submit to their husbands in everything, that wives may ever divorce their husbands or marry again, that there are no witches and in any case they should not be burnt to death, that a hapless girl thought not to be a virgin should not be stoned or burnt to death and her despoiler go free. Therefore, it must be concluded that Jesus was the usual male chauvinist of his day."

Mr. Barker concludes with this statement: "AND there is the real drive behind the anti-abortionists: misogyny...I don't believe that any one of them cares a hoot for a fetus. They care about the issue because it gives them a chance to flex their self-rightous muscles. It is a simplistic, open-and-shut matter to them, requiring little thought. They need this kind of thing to give them an opportunity to march around pretending to be morally concerned. If their marching tramples women's rights, feelings, and bodies, well, that is just fine. According to the bible, women don't deserve fair treatment.

Although the bible is not anti-abortion, it is anti-choice. If there is one thing the bible (and fundamentalist men ...like President George W. Bush...my words) can't tolerate, it is a woman who takes control. "

Reguarding if the Bible is anti-abortion,here's the answer:
Exodus 20:13:Thou shalt not kill
from The Ten Commandments.
Pretty staightforward,no confusion.
Semantics aside,there's no denying that a fetus is indeed a living creation,more commonly known as an
unborn baby or infant.
So if one intentionally ends the life of an innocent human-being,
again all semantics aside,such as "terminate,"or abortion,nothing can alter the fact that such an action is indeed killing.

The verse you are alluding to is far too absolute and is just another way people who use the Bible as a guide to abortion debate try to mislead. Many people believe that this verse is saying "Thou shalt not murder." To murder is to kill unlawfully, maliciously, and premeditatively. If the commandments forbid only murder, then it can be argued that other forms of killing are allowed, or even encouraged. God can ordain capital punishment, or command a holocaust of "heathens" without breaking his own laws...(wonder if that's how Bush thinks.)

The Bible is full of contradictions pertaining to "killing."

Exodus 20:30 and Leviticus 24:12 (another reference to killing) does not "align" with Exodus 32:27; 1 Samuel 6:19; 1 Samuel 15:2,3,7,8; Numbers 15:36; Hosea 13:16...it goes on and on. (For a complete explanation of how there is so much contradiction about common subjects in the Bible, please see books written by Dan Barker or go to this site: www.ffrf.org Another interesting, revealing book is the biography of Robert Ingersoll, entitled American Infidel: Robert G. Ingersoll by Orvin Larson).

The Hebrew word for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach. Depending on which version of the Bible you use, there are about ten Hebrew words which are translated "kill." And many of them contradict each other. For example, nakah, harang, and muth are used in the Hebrew versions also, and, when used in certain versus, describe godly massacres.

IF we are using the Bible as the guide under which we are creating our opinions about abortion and other moral issues, then we are allowing ourselves to be misled and we are also demeaning our own basic intelligence and depth of conscience, which I believe is present in all of us to a certain extent.

Therefore, using the Bible with all of its contradictions as a basis to take away a woman's right to make her own decision about having a child or not cannot be justified to my satisfaction.

Also, knowing that the Bible has been translated many, many times by people who were under the complete control of one or another ruling male monarch makes me stop and consider the sources for all those supposed rules and regulations within the Bible which pertain to women.

Again, the Bible is anti-woman.

I fully respect anyone who is devoted to their religion, whatever their theological doctrines teach and revere, as long as they don't try to thrust their beliefs onto me and tell me this is how you must act and this is what you must do because MY religion says so.

Separation of church and state must be maintained in this country if we are to remain truly free.

Catherine

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

There are those who say that every woman has a right to control her own body.
That is true.
Then having control over her own body,she should not become pregnant if she does not want children.
That is control!
When she becomes pregnant,then she has lost her control over that situation.
But more importantly,only od has
Final Rights to any persons body.
The Bible speaks of a fetus as a person,not simply tissue that can be discarded if found to be a
bother or a nuicance.
Since the fetus is a person from the moment of conception,then destroying of the fetus is killing a person.
In the past,some people have mistakenly speculated that perhaps the body might be in the process of formation for some time,and then
God "breathes a soul into it."
They have it backward.
The life that is present forms matter into a body for itself.
("Life Forms Matter" by Joseph Breig,The Catholic News,1/24/1974,
pg.8)
Life Forms Matter:
Job:10:8-12
Isaiah:49:1-5
Jeremiah:1:4-5
Following passages note personality is ascribed to the unborn:
Psalm:139:13-16
Psalm:127:3
Exodus:21:22-25 relates how Israel was to judge a circumstance relating to the death of the unborn.
The latter deals with unintentional harm which comes to a pregnant woman;how much more will divine penalty come upon those who intentionally discard the fetus?
The Gospel of Luke ascribes personality to the fetus within Elizabeth, Luke:1:39-44

Mere tissue does not leap for joy;only persnhood leaps for joy.
The Bible regards the fetus as having a personality.In Galatians,Paul speaks of himself as having a person while still in his mothers womb,but more a person consecrated by God.
Galatians:1:15-16
(compare Jeremiah:1:5 for the same accent.)
Since the Bible regards the fetus as personality,then the aborting of the fetus is murdering personality.
Some verses from Scripture dealing with murder are then appropriate
for study,such as:
Genisis:9:6
Exodus:23:7
Note 1Peter:4:15

It is alarming to realize the nonchalance on the part of many concerning abortion.Years ago Newsweek (7-19-1971) quoted one medical opinion:
"Abortion is finding its place as a perfectly acceptable and valid health measure.We no longer think of it as a crime."

Obviously abortion,excepting those rare instances where either the mother or babys life is endangered medically,is murder and a crime.
Abortion can in no way be defined as a "perfectly acceptable and valid health measure."
Excepting the rare instances mentioned above.

As to the Bible being anti-woman,that is also untrue.A couple passages on how men should treat women:
Ephesians:5:25-30
1Peter:3:7

The Bible holds women in high esteem,as shown in just these couple examples:
Jesus apprears to Mary Magdalene,
John:20:11-18

Notice Jesus chose to appear first to Mary Magdalene,after the Ressurection,instead of the male apostles,who with the exception of John,fled in fear of punishment from the Pharisee,at various times.

Another important and telling exampe of how the Bible has the highest regard for women:
John:19:25-27
With the exception of John,those who remained with Jesus through the Crucifixion were all women,such as,
Mary,The Blessed Virgin,
Mary Magdalene,etc.

Another example of how Jesus in the Bible expects women to be respected,is when He publicly exposes the Pharisees for the
hypocrites they were:
John:8:1-11

These are just a few examples that show how the Bible regards women,the unborn,and abortion.
Due to spaceand time I listed only a few here.
I wonder why those who attempt to justify these issues as being o.k.
in the Bible,or that the Bibles teaching is wrong or does not matter,or that the Bible is
anti-woman,never refer to even these few important and telling passages.

I highly doubt that any woman who decides to have an abortion comes to that decision hastily. It comes with great consideration and pre-meditation. Since an unborn child is a human life and can be murdered according to your definition and since abortion is the premeditated killing of a human life then abortion is murder regardless of what our "laws" say. I doubt any abortion occurs with any less consideration than Scott Peterson gave Lacy and his unborn son.

Hi onewhofoundthetruth,
I don't believe many women make this decision lightly either.I've talked with many women who have had abortions,and most deeply regret having done so.Also,I've known a few who look at abortion as just another form of birth control,however,I believe they are the minority.And just because something put into "law",does'nt make it right,or excuse it.
The main problem is that in recent decades,orginizations such as "Planned Parenthood" and our wonderful public school system,along with the connivance of the corporate mass media,have been intentionally indoctrinating our young people,girls at their most vulnerable,and boy's who are'nt prepared for the responsibility of parenthood,and all that comes with it,to start believing that what is euphamistically called abortion,is nothing more than a simple out-patient surgical procedure,with no devastating consequences,and just what this so-called "benign" procedure actually does to a real live,feeling,breathing,unborn person.Also,the devestating emotional effects on most women who inevitabe ugly truth about just what abortion really is.
Interesting that you brought up Scott Peterson.The fact that Laci,his wife,who was carrying their soon to be son,who already was named Connor,was murdered along with Connor,precisely because Mr.Peterson did'nt want to be inconvienienced by the birth of his son Connor.One could rightly state that Scott Peterson killed his wife,in order to abort Connor.
What a guy,huh!
None of us would be alive if we had been aborted.Obviously,a fetus in the womb is a living,breathing,feeling,and growing person.
I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from in your post.
So,I'll ask you.What do you honestly feel,and believe regarding abortion? Since you posted as a response to my post on this issue,
I assume you have some opinion that you have'nt really made clear.
Oh,you referred to this as "my definition".
The subject is:
Is The Bible Anti-Abortion?
So,its not just my definition.
Ask a woman who is pregnant if they consider their unborn child as nothing more than insignificant tissue to be disposed of at will,like so much garbage,or wheather they know,and love their unborn baby,and really listen.
Whether some or even most people will admit certain truths,deep down in their heart of hearts,people know whats right,and more importantly whats definately not right.

This is an interesting article on the subject of the Bible and abortion. Here is an excerpt...

Quote:

Why Abortion is BiblicalBy Brian Elroy McKinley

One sided. That's the abortion stance of most Christians -- one sided. We hear the Christian Coalition speak against abortion. We hear Focus on the Family tell Republican candidates it will not support them unless they state their opposition to abortion. We hear Operation Rescue's Christian members praying God will turn back the clock and make abortion illegal again. Over and over we are bombarded with the "Christian" perspective that abortion is outright wrong, no exceptions. With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right?

Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.

This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms:

"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." Psalm 139:13-16

Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed.

But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical. [Continued here...]

_________________"A hypocrite pats you on the back in front of your
face, and slaps you in the face behind your back."
-Unknown

Excellent post, EP...and I agree with you completely...thank you for the link...I will certainly bookmark it.

I don't have a problem with anyone's belief about abortion...I don't think abortion should be a form of birth control is about as far as I'm against it.

But don't make it illegal...let it simply be a choice. If a woman wants an abortion, she should be able to have that choice, and it should be available to her as a medical matter between her and her doctor. CHOICE is the operative word...

Someone else's religious beliefs should not be forced onto any other person for any reason whatsoever.

I also agree with your belief that churches should be taxed...maybe we can discuss that at another time.

Catherine

_________________

"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."Honore de Balzac

"Democrats work to help people who need help. That other party, they work for people who don't need help. That's all there is to it."~Harry S. Truman

You're very welcome for the link. Enjoy! In my opinion, Brian Elroy McKinley has some very insightful things to say and is well worth reading.

I agree that abortion should not be used as a form of contraception and I don't support going that route at all. I think contraceptive education is essential, but only if the info being given out is factual and not full of misinformation.

On a very personal level, I was faced with this decision when I was 18 (my birth control device failed). In my particular case, after weighing all the options, the decision (which did not come easily) to have an abortion was the right choice for everyone concerned. I was very grateful that option was legally available to me. As you said, choice is the operative word.

The decision to have an abortion is between the people who are involved in the situation - no one else. Why people feel the need to meddle in the personal affairs of others is beyond me. As far as making abortion illegal, I have one thing to say to that. Please keep your moralizing out of my reproductive rights.

_________________"A hypocrite pats you on the back in front of your
face, and slaps you in the face behind your back."
-Unknown