As part of the research into my eventual directing debut, I watch a lot of youtube, viral videos, and especially those that invite you to check out their site which is ideal for our purposes -- and I can see how effective these invites are by referencing video views by traffic rankings through Alexa.

So I can utilize the data, I use other websites for comparison... Long story short, I've been watching the popularity of Newgrounds for a long time now. The popularity of it goes up, it goes down and generally stays steady. Not this last six months though where according to the statistical data, the number of people venturing in has dropped by more than half! This is especially worrisome considering the internet as a whole has a consistent upward trend as technology becomes more commonplace in the world.

I haven't been there for a long time so I don't know, but does anyone here know why these numbers have dropped so dramatically? One thing's for sure, get ready for competitions, prizes and gimmicks ahoy!
M.

I can't say why thats happened, everything seems more or less the same there. Perhaps that's why?

Once they launch the Chat feature they might see more visits.

Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:24 am

Dr. E. WormQueenMaccabeeRank: 11

Joined: 12 Mar 2007Posts: 337Location: St. Louis

My best guess would be that the rise of YouTube is the fall of Newgrounds. Way back at the start of this decade and up until only the past few years, Newgrounds and similar niche sites were the only places on the Internet with the kind of intuitive all-encompassing user-created content. Now, of course, there are tons of massive Web 2.0 sites that have supplanted the old ones and are slowly choking out sites like Newgrounds that only cater to a particular niche (in this case, Flash animation).

The other main issue (and this is tangentially related to the first one) is that the original Newgrounds user-base is growing up, while the site's content for the most part is not. The first half of the '00s boasted a flood in user sign-ups and traffic for the site, probably because Newgrounds was the only site of its kind at the time and also because this was a sort of golden age of a lot of artists submitting works with wide, mainstream appeal whose publicity spilled outside of the tight-knit NG community. A few of the first names that come to mind here for me are LegendaryFrog (there was his Final Fantasy music video-type thing, which I believe was a mild Internet sensation, and his series of LotR parodies, which was my first experience with NG), David Firth (Salad Fingers), illwillpress (who's works along with Salad Fingers have been co-opted as cultural icons by the irritating Hot Topic crowd), and Neil Ciceriaga (of Animutation and "The Ultimate Showdown" fame). These artists and others like them brought people to Newgrounds in droves, not to mention a few controversies that got the site some news airtime.

But these major franchises have all slowed to a trickle or stopped entirely, leaving massive amounts of content that were once enticing to the NG community, but due to their often juvenile content, become less and less appealing over time. Gradually, I assume that users have just been growing up and moving on (my '04 sign-up date is apparently a very rare sight on the BBS nowadays), and while there are still always new members joining, they aren't coming in the flocks that they once did, hence the overall drop in users.

_________________"No, I don't mind being the smartest man in the world. I just wish it wasn't this one." -Ozymandias, "Watchmen"

Last edited by Dr. E. Worm on Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:48 pm

Michael DantonAceOverlordRank: 13

Joined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 3559Location: Australia.

No, if it were just the same, then the statistics should hold steady or increase slightly, this is a marked decline and I'm not sure why. I have three ideas on the subject.

1. Flash isn't as interesting as youtube -- where many flash films also reside.

2. People (like me) have just become jaded with it.

3. The scene is just getting too competitive and commercial. From what I could tell, the golden age of NG was around the time when "Bitey of brackenwood" jumped onto the scene. Everyone thought, wow, stunning, marvelous... but it sort of ended an era and set a benchmark when sticks shooting each-other no longer amused.

And what's this about a chat thingy? I would have thought there'd be ready to install packs that would let you do that pretty-much straight away. Even if they have to build it, I'm surprised it'd take those guys 5 minutes with their resources and support. Who knows, I've been wrong before.
M.

P.S.
Doc, just after I posted my message I discovered your own and it's obvious you've given this topic a great deal of thought and encapsulated a lot of my own feelings on the matter. I can't help but agree with your diagnoses of the situation, there are a lot of things that brought the site fame and some trickled down to the people who were actually doing the work. Perhaps these days it's more about being an individual rather than collective fame. Perhaps the site isn't representing it's contributors adequately? I know they weren't sympathetic to me, I'm used to being treated well; but occasionally I was hit by the same bat designed to keep the hordes of little kids in line. I don't know why I persisted as long as I did, writers are treated like pariahs anyway.

There are a lot of questions; but one thing is for sure -- Newgrounds is no where near as desirable as it once was for viewers and artists alike. What can we say of it's future and the next generation of animators?

Well, I doubt that the site is going anywhere in the near future. Despite its drop in publicity and activity, it can still be somewhat considered the center of the Flash animation community, and that isn't likely to change. Plus, it seems that even though Newgrounds is faltering a bit, the Behemoth (Tom Fulp and Dan Paladin's indie video game developer) is really taking off, with Castle Crashers setting Xbox Live Arcade sales records and racking up all kinds of praise, so it's not like their resources and avenues for growth are dying out.

As for the next generation of animators, it's like you said, YouTube is a more appealing service, and I think it's going to become (if it isn't already) the standard means of distribution for all garage-scale DIY filmmaking, live-action or not. That being said, it's naturally a very good time to be a YouTube filmmaker, which is good for you (and by extension, us). The only issue is how to stand out from the rest of the immense sea of videos, but I guess there's already another thread concerned with that...

P.S. On a totally unrelated note, the fifth season of Lost premiered in the U.S. tonight...it was breathtaking, awesome, breathtakingly awesome, and, well...a total mindfuck in every sense of the word. When does it start for the other regions?

_________________"No, I don't mind being the smartest man in the world. I just wish it wasn't this one." -Ozymandias, "Watchmen"

Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:34 pm

Michael DantonAceOverlordRank: 13

Joined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 3559Location: Australia.

They do seem to be making a big deal of the console market, I don't know if it's a lucrative enterprise or just a feather in their cap but you can be absolutely certain that they owe their success directly to the website. I haven't seen castle crashers but I'm sure its a button mash-fest with little redeeming quality. Alien hominid too, was a retro side-shooter but vastly inferior to arcade games almost a decade it's senior... I'll tell you what, the same kind of celebrity will do wonders for this place, that's for sure.

The only question now is... How? Sure I could produce a movie that's related to the site, like a commentary of fiction, tutorials on writing, character development vs momentum -- ie,. a general snore-fest. Although there will be a chance to work some of those elements in, for now it's just going to be yet another short, sweet, provocatively titled vignette that takes the piss out of mythbusters.

In fact I'm sure I can prove a lot of their explosive myths wrong, stuff like outrunning a trail of gunpowder and painting a room with TNT... Then I'll probably go to the extremes and appeal to the you tube crowd by doing a "Can a chick with really huge tits and no bra outrun gunpowder in slow motion...on a cold day... in the rain." Or "Can you paint a room... With a dead horse?"

I've got pages of this kind of sensationalism right now. I've even got a name for it... I'll call it "The Disclaimer". Like you say, there's another thread for discussion and I wish you guys would chuck in your two cents just to sound things out.
M.

P.S.
After the first season they didn't play lost on the TV here in OZ ever again! Of course I've been forced to rent a few box sets and I've just finished seeing the third season. Not bad seeing two whole seasons in six days... I was having "lost" style dreams. I'm glad things are picking up a bit, season no. 3 didn't have the same spark as it's earlier shows.

Yeah, 3 is widely considered to be the most uneven season in terms of quality, though I think it really picked up towards the end, especially that season finale..."We have to go back!" Luckily, season 4 is a return to the highs of the first season even as the sci-fi aspects start to become more and more central to the story. I think the box set for it was recently released, so you can probably get your hands on it somehow.

John Locke...there's a guy who knows a thing or two about blowing shit up.

_________________"No, I don't mind being the smartest man in the world. I just wish it wasn't this one." -Ozymandias, "Watchmen"

Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:39 am

gumOnShoeEightRank: 7

Joined: 29 Feb 2008Posts: 88Location: USA

Well, there's probably a few things going on. We're switching age groups to be sure. There's definitely a higher quality expectation and more time put into the flash. There's also perhaps less sign ups due to the other sites around, and there are other options for releasing flash now like Kongregate or Armor Games. I think one of the things that needs an overhaul and has needed it for a long time is the way Newgrounds archives data and makes it accessible to its users. You'll notice there isn't a lot of encouragement to look up old stuff. You can find the top 50 easily and collections and games, but they are rarely updated in a way that draw attention or that seems very complete, and I think sometimes content is easier to access on other sites, a huge problem when you are trying to feed peoples quick fixes.

The other thing is that we are coming off of an overhaul surge. Attention for Newgrounds spiked when they launched the redesign, but now there's been a while since there's been anything "new." There are efforts to make Newgrounds more available to people going on, and yeah some of it will probably involve prizes and contests. I'm running a monthly writing competition now, but it has little to do with that kind of thing.

The other thing is that we're in the middle of the winter now. Most of our summer user base as slacked off with school and what not. So, there's all sorts of things going on.

But, I'm sure that the new art portal and soon to follow lit portal will make people happy. (Yeah there should be both within the next year or so) Art comes first, lit may be delayed later than that. I'm basing this on public posts Tom has made recently. I don't really know more than that, though I believe some of the more senior artists are testing content.

As for the chat, the flash chat has been done for ages. The issue is that the back end, mainly the server communication sockets were never programmed by the guy who said he would do it, and since its a newgrounds original its up to the NG staff. And of course, the chat wouldn't be a huge draw, maybe make 30-40 people happy, whereas art and lit portals would serve a lot more people.

What specifically has you jaded over newgrounds?

_________________Thrup thrup thrup.

Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:30 pm

Michael DantonAceOverlordRank: 13

Joined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 3559Location: Australia.

What? They're doing a Literature portal? No matter, there's lots of those around and none of them work... Except the one I have planned of course. If they present literature in the method they present flash films then it's going to be just another database where good stories/flash gets lost, ignored, discarded, plagiarized or "Blammed". No wonder they're asking people to dredge the depths looking for a tasty morsel, it's good for the advertising and makes it seem like people actually want to discover your stickfight.
Nope, it's all in the programming and I've got the plan. Come to think of it, if NG moves in too many directions at once, they're only going to further dilute the few people who are going there now. Out of those people (the tits or GTFO crowd) , how many do you think are actually going to seek out your romantic poetry and leave a thoughtful comment? ( i.e., Go kill yourself emo lol!!!1!)

One thing's for sure, you're not making it easy for me to criticize NG without criticizing you by association. All this talk of "We, us and our" when you refer to it. No offense is intended but the so-called redesign was just a new skin around the same tired old bag of bones, nothing except the user sections have changed and that's only worthwhile if you're one of the elitist few that spend a large part of their lives there trying to endear themselves... Not that I'm complaining about that mind you, I hope they stay the same for a good long time yet otherwise this Lit thing might actually be a problem.

Now why am I jaded? I'm jaded because it's hostile place, just because I'm knee deep in bullshit doesn't mean I'm cattle! The people they've got running it are programmers and you guys know how I feel about programmers... I'm also growing out of the meme mentality too, it all seems just a bit juvenile now.

Besides, there's only six guys in NG that I give a damn about and they're all here so I'm happy.
M.

Eh, I'm NG "staff" since I'm a moderator. I'm not paid, sure, but I enjoy doing what I do. And I know where "they" are coming from, and logistically (as a programmer) it makes sense, regardless of your dislike of programmers. I'm not insulted if you dislike Newgrounds, but its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

And sure their website only appeared to have gotten a face lift, but most of the changes were the back end stuff that you can't see. Everything was completely new code from what I heard to update it with standards and such around the web. Also, to make it more easily extensible.

Hostility is mainly due to the age group, I'm not sure if that will ever change. But most of them aren't hostile, if you aren't hostile to them. And, programmers tend to enjoy working for people when others don't assume the entire group of programmers is some horrible subset of humans. :/

By the way, let some light in this place when you can:

_________________Thrup thrup thrup.

Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:26 pm

Michael DantonAceOverlordRank: 13

Joined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 3559Location: Australia.

You misunderstand me, I don't dislike NG in the slightest, on the contrary I admire it just as I admire Steven King, whom I never miss the chance to berate. NG was the original inspiration for this site and for a time I was proud to wave the flag. Now when it comes to how I was treated, I speak from personal experience. The mods deleted whole threads, deleted comments I composed and generally made a menace of themselves without explanation or for an unjust cause. I was then, as I am now, as I have been in my correspondence with programmers -- never anything other than pleasant and courteous.

Know that I don't paint you with that brush, you've been nothing but upright and forthcoming; however your mock-up of my banner is a giant tease, it looks fantastic.

I'm dabbling in CSS right now, which means in a few months I may have some ideas of how to go about changing the appearance of this site (but still not necessarily database interactions or functions which are written in java script from the look of things). In about 2 months, no promises, I may ask to look at your back end as you once offered, and we'll see if I have the time for such an endeavor. I am graduating soon, so that means looking for money/jobs and something like this, even if I can't do it permanently might make the process go smoother. I'll let you know where I'm at then, and you can let me know where you are at and what you need.

_________________Thrup thrup thrup.

Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:57 am

Michael DantonAceOverlordRank: 13

Joined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 3559Location: Australia.

I doubt it's as involved as you make it out to be, Portstevo didn't strike me as a wunderkind and yet he did some marvelous things... Pity. I suppose the only way you're going to find out is to take a look for yourself and see what makes FP tick. I believe the graphical parts of it may be difficult; but my foremost concern is getting the site working as it should because what sets FP apart from everyone else is the way the points/ranking/ordering system works. This is also a concern of mine as I want to keep these processes discreet until they're instituted, especially from your buddies at NG.

If you can abide by that, I can give you access straight away and when you're ready, let me know.
M.

I doubt it's as involved as you make it out to be, Portstevo didn't strike me as a wunderkind and yet he did some marvelous things... Pity. I suppose the only way you're going to find out is to take a look for yourself and see what makes FP tick. I believe the graphical parts of it may be difficult; but my foremost concern is getting the site working as it should because what sets FP apart from everyone else is the way the points/ranking/ordering system works. This is also a concern of mine as I want to keep these processes discreet until they're instituted, especially from your buddies at NG.

If you can abide by that, I can give you access straight away and when you're ready, let me know.
M.

P.S.
Stop looking at my back-end.

I bet its more involved than I'd like it to be.

That's the way of saying, I don't know much about web languages and once I get into it stuff will get easier and easier, but I need to crawl a while before I can walk before I can run, before I can jump and fly, etc.

As per graphical stuff, that's already getting "easier" than I thought it would be:

I'm just using fourth perspective as a kind of sandbox, I guess. None of this is stuff I actually intend to be used. If you fall in love with, then ok, I'll give you what I have, but I'm really just trying to figure out css right now.

I can understand wanting the back end to work. I'm willing to take a look at it later, as I said, but please don't play down the importance of your visual presentation. I can understand wanting the code to set yourself apart, but (frankly) the colors here always drive down my mood and push me away. I'd love to spend more time here, but its too dark. I know that's weird, but its how I feel about it. I think a brighter scheme is in order if you want a larger base. I don't mean to insult anything that's been done with this site or anyone who did it, I just think there are better choices that could be made.

Anyway, I'd love to take a look, I'd like to know what I'd be dealing with. Are we talking sql? php? apache? windows databases :: yuch : I mean, that determines everything I have to learn to do this, and I think that's my starting point is picking up a couple books and web tutorials and LEARNING what the right way to do things is.

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_________________Thrup thrup thrup.

Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:28 pm

gumOnShoeEightRank: 7

Joined: 29 Feb 2008Posts: 88Location: USA

gumOnShoe wrote:

Michael Danton wrote:

I doubt it's as involved as you make it out to be, Portstevo didn't strike me as a wunderkind and yet he did some marvelous things... Pity. I suppose the only way you're going to find out is to take a look for yourself and see what makes FP tick. I believe the graphical parts of it may be difficult; but my foremost concern is getting the site working as it should because what sets FP apart from everyone else is the way the points/ranking/ordering system works. This is also a concern of mine as I want to keep these processes discreet until they're instituted, especially from your buddies at NG.

If you can abide by that, I can give you access straight away and when you're ready, let me know.
M.

P.S.
Stop looking at my back-end.

I bet its more involved than I'd like it to be.

That's the way of saying, I don't know much about web languages and once I get into it stuff will get easier and easier, but I need to crawl a while before I can walk before I can run, before I can jump and fly, etc.

As per graphical stuff, that's already getting "easier" than I thought it would be:

I'm just using fourth perspective as a kind of sandbox, I guess. None of this is stuff I actually intend to be used. If you fall in love with, then ok, I'll give you what I have, but I'm really just trying to figure out css right now.

I can understand wanting the back end to work. I'm willing to take a look at it later, as I said, but please don't play down the importance of your visual presentation. I can understand wanting the code to set yourself apart, but (frankly) the colors here always drive down my mood and push me away. I'd love to spend more time here, but its too dark. I know that's weird, but its how I feel about it. I think a brighter scheme is in order if you want a larger base. I don't mean to insult anything that's been done with this site or anyone who did it, I just think there are better choices that could be made.

Anyway, I'd love to take a look, I'd like to know what I'd be dealing with. Are we talking sql? php? apache? windows databases :: yuch : I mean, that determines everything I have to learn to do this, and I think that's my starting point is picking up a couple books and web tutorials and LEARNING what the right way to do things is.

Also, I meant to say that what goes on tour stays on tour. That's a rule with these kinds of things. What I know about Newgrounds and what I know about this place stay in my head. That's the way it works. Although, my girl friend (who isn't associated with either) would be someone I would talk to about stuff anyways. She'd be very bored and wouldn't talk about it with anyone, but I want to make it clear that secrets stay out of newgrounds and other web places, but they all go to her as well. Not that that should really be a problem. :/

_________________Thrup thrup thrup.

Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:31 pm

Michael DantonAceOverlordRank: 13

Joined: 06 Mar 2007Posts: 3559Location: Australia.

You know, personally I like the colours; but the bottom line is, it's not all about me and what I want,
it's always been about people like me, it's been about the writers being appreciated for their skills
without having to also be good at producing their writing or otherwise presenting it in a more marketable format.
I've spent many frustrating months trying to do just that and almost "writing off" writing as a career dead end.
Kudos to you for your radio show, you're doing it the right way, and now you're walking on the heads of all the other
sad bastards like me that just write scripts that'll never see the light of day --

Not without a fourth Perspective of course.

I have so much faith in the system I've designed, I'm sure getting appreciated here will actually mean something in
the real world. After all, there are also a lot of sad bastards doing voice acting for sad bastards doing stickfights with
another shower of bastards doing the music, every one of them wanting to be noticed!
Quite honestly they wouldn't know a good script if they were strapped down clockwork orange style and had it force
fed to them by James Earl Jones, the same could be said to writers about animation, directing, music etc,. There needs to be
a unifying force and I think this is it, it has to be... At least for anyone looking for a good story and subsequently a good
writer.

Now, when it comes to tinkering with the site's visual design, I had some radical functional changes in mind (you could
almost call it a redesign) and I can tell you all about that if you'd like. As for the code aspects, just so long as nothing
is adversely affected and you keep everything safe and saved, you can sandbox all you like.
In regards to confidentiality... Well, you seem like an upright guy who can get things done, if I can't trust you,
who can I trust eh?

Say the word and I'll send you the keys to the castle... well, it's more like a garden shed but maybe we can work on that

1. Why do people post other people's work when they aren't getting any benefit from it, rather they're just going out of their way to make a rod for their own back.

2. Why isn't he encouraging the widespread distribution of his films and;

3. Why is he limiting his audience to the NG folks and primarily stating them as a source above his own website and the subsequent notoriety it will generate?

4. How will NG stop the great grab-bag that is You-tube?

M.

Edit-

I just had a look at Egoraptor's channel on youtube and found this:

"I've started to release the Awesome cartoons on Youtube myself.
It's been nearly impossible to keep them off of Youtube so I figured
if they're going to be up anyway, I might as well put them up myself."

I'm sure he's not alone in that sentiment. It doesn't bode well for the future of NG.
M.