Have you and mmsven been sharing a few beers lately? Your language has become somewhat less "quotable".

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

And Kyubey is such a magnificent bastard compounded by the fact terms like bastard doesn't mean anything to him.

I am still convinced that he doesn't mean anything bad and that it's just that he cannot relate to human emotions. Although I do agree that he's really testing the limits in episode 7.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Kyouko (...) Trying to be a nice senpai suddenly. Sudden contrast.

Red Rangers are always tsundere. Cool on their surface but deeply caring inside, they just lack the confidence to show emotions of such kind. Besides, I guess that even she will solidarize with Sayaka after learning what methods Kyûbei applies. A truely bonding experience, being turned into a walking shell.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Sayaka going nuts was like woah. Decided to shut off pain entirely, despite Kyubey advising against it(or maybe it was a ploy by him for mentioning it in the first place!).

Nah, I think he views the situation from a very technical, cold, and professional point of view.Sayaka: "Why didn't you tell us?"Kyûbei: "You didn't ask. And what you don't know won't hurt you."

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Hitomi declaring her feelings for Kyousuke was the final trigger after her belief that she cannot be with Kyousuke due to her 'body'.

It was a very good dialogue scene, though, with Hitomi. Hitomi suspects that Sayaka has feelings for Kyôsuke and openly declares that she's going to confess to him, while Sayaka remains not just unable to confess to Kyôsuke because of her latest self-awareness problem, she cannot even admit it in front of Hitomi, despite being invited to. Hitomi acts straightforward, but she's not being mindlessly competitive. She calls Sayaka an "important friend" and she meant it beyond doubt. The author is clearly playing the whole keyboard with Sayaka's emotional condition.I am gradually coming to the conviction that we'll never see Mami again. Still hopeful, but it's dimming away...

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

I guess now is to see whether (Sayaka) bounces back from it or how far she goes down.

If things continue like this they'll make her the endboss.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

If only they'd just unite under the power of pocky.

Akemi smiling? That's a beautiful picture.Have you already seen episode 8 or where is it from?

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Homura Jump Game.

A race against space and time. Whoever made this (these) sure has a dark kind of imagination.

Episode 8 is evil. This is not a magical girl show, its a psychological thriller! Or something.

---

SPOILER ALERT!!

---

- Homura confirmed for time traveler. Preventing Madoka's sacrifice no matter the cost.- Homura uses firearms. Her power of explosions were actual grenades. She's so much more awesome now. It was great when she stopped time and perforated Kyubey with a pistol. Although it would have been more awesome if she was standing there pumping a still smoking shotgun. - Kyubey the goddamned Incubator. Confirmed for up to absolutely no good. Killing it does squat as he has many replacement bodies. And he... eats his own dead bodies. Confirmed for Cthulian level evil.- Magical Girls confirmed to turn into witches when their Soul Gems are completely corrupt. Sayaka ;_;- Kyubey's ending phrase drives to stake in for being a Lovecraftian Monstrosity. "In this country, growing young women are called girls. So it's only proper that you, turning into witches, should be called magical girls."

This is no cute mascot or saving the world. This is selling your soul to the devil itself. While some of these were guessed at and speculated about, now that it comes the hell out its like FFFfffFFff--- . I definitely enjoy the show and enjoy Kyubey as a character but hate him on a personal level.

Holy shit indeed.So... using magical powers uses up the energy within the soul gem - which will at one point deteriorate, if not recharged. Still, Sayaka did not just go because it is or might be a natural progression - from magical girl to witch - she was also very much at odds with her existence. Her love interest is lost due to her losing hope (and mind), and listening to the two idiots talk on the train also destroys her confidence in the world she is supposed to be saving. If the world loses its value what's left other than leaving it behind? (Sending it to hell, where it belongs.)

Well, and Kyûbei is immortal and eats the dead shell that Akemi left after turning him into Swiss cheese. With an automatic pistol. Creepy indeed. I guess he has a soul gem of his own to hold his life force. And I begin to doubt there is a plan for him... right now he seems to be doing what he's doing just because he can. Unless there's an even greater evil somewhere in the background I can see no reason why he should help create a species that in the adolescent stage destroys specimen of its own adult form.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

It was great when she stopped time and perforated Kyubey with a pistol.

There was a time stop? You mean the fountain... hm... I thought it was a dramatic element of sorts, but what you say could make more sense.The pistol reminds me of a Beretta 93R, but the Beretta has a 3-shot limiter. Oh well, what does it matter...

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Although it would have been more awesome if she was standing there pumping a still smoking shotgun.

Not distinguished enough.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Kyubey the goddamned Incubator.

Has that term been used before in the series?I cannot remember.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Kyubey's ending phrase drives to stake in for being a Lovecraftian Monstrosity: "In this country, growing young women are called girls. So it's only proper that you, turning into witches, should be called magical girls."

Okay, he says that. It means that he knows of the fate of Magical Girls. But it might still be that the author is deceiving the audience by giving the characters lines that seem to be pointing at the facts but are actually not.I'm not saying this because I'm totally convinced that Kyûbei was innocent, but I'd like everyone to not forget to try and see things from a different perspective also.

But eventually, the many "Faust" references, of which the "Walpurgisnacht" is another one, seem to lead to a clear conclusion: Kyûbei is the equivalent of Goethe's Mephisto.

The term Incubator was first mentioned in that episode. Now people are linking Kyubey into it and calling it InKyuBeyTor. Which fits oddly nicely.

Anyway it was most likely time stop since Kyubey more or less figured out her power from the deed, plus all those holes appeared all at once. Pretty odd that Madoka just up and got off to look for Sayaka after seeing Kyubey get shot up. Although wait a second...

I do wonder just how time traveling works in the universe. Kyubey mentions that Homura is from another timeline, so does traveling back in time and meddling in it simply create more and more alternate futures? Or is the future effectively annihilated to be recreated? Or are we dealing with my least favourite type of time travel where oh the future determines the past which determines the future and it might seem clever at first but its rigid as all fuck and basically means stuff is predetermined. I get the feeling this isn't the first time Homura has taken the leap, and those time trips have begun to introduce anomalies into the world. Back to the whole Madoka suddenly running off to Sayaka, it was preceded by 'static' and Madoka wondering if she had met Homura before. So Madoka unconsciously knows what is going to happen and runs off in a daze. All possibly the result of time having rewound itself many times before.

The term Incubator was first mentioned in that episode. Now people are linking Kyubey into it and calling it InKyuBeyTor. Which fits oddly nicely.

If we stay inside the frame of Japanese language sounds it makes total sense:Kyûbei = (Katakana) キューべーIncubator = (Katakana) インキューベーター

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Pretty odd that Madoka just up and got off to look for Sayaka after seeing Kyubey get shot up.

Most people would be shocked by such an incident, and it can very easily happen that you'll remain surprisingly calm. Emotions usually come later once you had time to reflect upon what actually happened.Furthermore we already see Akemi being quite emotional, so it would have looked very odd had Madoka also reacted "girl-like" by shedding tears. I would rather say that in her eyes Akemi's deed is more despicable than Kyûbei's "death" is saddening. She's getting away from a dangerous person who uses guns to end lives.I find Madoka's reaction not really odd.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

I do wonder just how time traveling works in the universe. Kyubey mentions that Homura is from another timeline, so does traveling back in time and meddling in it simply create more and more alternate futures? Or is the future effectively annihilated to be recreated? Or are we dealing with my least favourite type of time travel where oh the future determines the past which determines the future and it might seem clever at first but its rigid as all fuck and basically means stuff is predetermined. I get the feeling this isn't the first time Homura has taken the leap, and those time trips have begun to introduce anomalies into the world. Back to the whole Madoka suddenly running off to Sayaka, it was preceded by 'static' and Madoka wondering if she had met Homura before. So Madoka unconsciously knows what is going to happen and runs off in a daze. All possibly the result of time having rewound itself many times before.

I'm under the impression you're interpreting a bit too much.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

http://kazumi386.org/~kairo/mmgame/110227.htm

Good one, too.But I was hoping for a "shooter" rather than a "Hokutô no Ken"/"Fist of the Northstar" hommage, "Ai wo tori-modose" soundtrack and all (which btw has also appeared on the Lucky Star soundtrack, hilariously sung by Shiraishi Minoru and Konno Hiromi)... "O-mae wa mou shinde-ru" was really LOL though.

QB is from a technologically advanced race trying to prevent the entropy of the universe by utilizing the emotions of adolescent girls. Deception via untold truths. Also they are completely amoral. Concepts such as good, evil or trickery seem to not exist for the race, but it appears they understand that such concepts and values apply to human beings. But they disregard such things, sticking to their ways of understanding. Which in our eyes makes them pretty damn evil. Toying with the lives of adolescent girls and using them as batteries to prevent the end of the universe which happens - when? Since Kyubey mentioned that humanity will some day join the majestic QB race amongst the stars - I reckon the universe is in no real danger of destruction at the moment and will remain that way for a pretty damn long time.

So to me its like if we discovered we could keep the sun from going supernova by throwing babies into it. And we started doing it right now. Just taking babies, sending them on rockets into the sun. Which is evil.

Well, as long as it does not suck crystallized shit back up your ass I guess it's okay.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

QB is from a technologically advanced race trying to prevent the entropy of the universe by utilizing the emotions of adolescent girls.

I was like, "Entropy!? Are we speaking scifi now???" Pretty weird stuff to have in a more Lovecraftian Mahô Shôjo show.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Which in our eyes makes them pretty damn evil.

Yes, I enjoyed that part a lot. Denouncing human bigotry. Big time! Humans kill and devour other living creatures all the time and think nothing of it, in their hubris of being at the top of the friggin' food chain. And when something comes along that proves to be higher up in the food chain and devours us (or our energy or whatever) we cry bloody murder. That dialogue made a great point with that.Great quote also:"When you're ready to sacrifice your life for the good of the universe just call me, I'll be waiting."

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

I reckon the universe is in no real danger of destruction at the moment and will remain that way for a pretty damn long time.

A long time, yes - in human terms. Kyûbei might have a different view on a few hundred billion years (although the universe is only about 15 billion years old these days and still happily expanding, showing no signs of slowing down its rate of expansion any time soon).

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

So to me its like if we discovered we could keep the sun from going supernova by throwing babies into it. And we started doing it right now. Just taking babies, sending them on rockets into the sun. Which is evil.

I guess the whole explanation including astrophysical "facts" would take quite long, because I sense huge holes in his plan. The forces of gravity will pull the universe back together once the kinetic energy of the big bang is used up. How are emotional energies from an insignificant little dust particle called Earth supposed to prevent the contraction? How are they supposed to keep the stars burning once all the hydrogen is used up and all the stars have collapsed and cooled down? Whose energy are they going to tap once all other races have gone extinct, as there will be no new species without stars?Eventually Kyûbei's race is simply driven by their fear of death.

What else do I have...When Kyôko proposed to have Madoka talk Sayaka out of her "witchedness" I knew she'd not come back. It never even worked in SailorMoon although it did buy time. In this series, however, the sacrifice was completely in vain. Unless the moment of Sayaka's hesitation is still to come in the climactic moments of bringing her down.

And how did this all come to be? All the girls are fighting alone, there's no real supporting each other, and divided they fall.

Cat is out of the bag, been lampshaded and predicted but now that its out - wow. Just WOW.

The mechanics of the time travel ability is revealed. Time is actually rewound, rather than any weird time jumps with meeting your past self.

Its quite lovely(well not lovely but you get my drift) just how the despair builds up in each consecutive time loop.

First rewind - Homura goes back to change their fate from being killed by the Walpurgis Nacht. Second rewind - Homura averts that, but Madoka turns into a witch. Third rewind - Nobody believes her. Sayaka becomes an example, Mami breaks and shoots Kyoko who in turn gets shot by Madoka. Then the killer scene was Madoka giving the last grief seed to Homura, asking her to go back and save her before starting to turn into a witch. Then Homura has to pull the trigger on her best friend.

Then Homura turns cold and steals more and more hardware from gangsters.

As depressing as it all is, there is a certain beauty in the execution of it all. And what adds to it is how the girls would have been your usual team of magical heroines if their reality wasn't written by Urobuchi.

Kyubey making a contract with Homura did seem a bit odd. But I guess in that loop, he probably didn't collect quite enough - Madoka and Mami being dead probably means no gain. Walpurgis Nacht still romping around - no gain. But being a miracle alien, I thought he had means to defeat Witches himself but perhaps not since he's pretty content to let Earth be wasted by witch-Madoka. I'm pretty sure Earth has more potential for future farming, or maybe QB is just that much of a prick. I suppose he couldn't foresee how Homura could become a never ending wrench in his plans with her power to repeatedly turn time back.

Either way QB is to be hated. Whatever justification he has, it does seem to end in the annihilation of mankind. Madoka fails- Walpurgis destroys mankind. Madoka succeeds, turns into a witch and destroys mankind.

Episode 10 indeed explains a lot. A LOT.Akemi seeing her friends die again and again sure had some impact on her attitude, I just thought the depiction made the jump too fast from the shy girl with braids and glasses to the hardened veteran that she has come to be in the present time line. But you are still right that it is beautifully executed how she trains her skills and expands her resources by tapping the Yakuza or the military or whatever. Groundhog Walpurgisnacht. So to speak.

With regard to a former comment of mine - it seems now that the notion of the Sentai has not been established in the present time line because Akemi has been working to prevent exactly that, but eventually she cannot just be everywhere and stop all the girls.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

being a miracle alien, I thought he had means to defeat Witches himself but perhaps not

Does a tax collector control how the money is being spent? Kyûbei looks like a specialist in his field, which is convincing emotionally vulnerable girls and thus collecting energy for his idea of saving the universe, but it was never suggested that he had any other abilities.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

I suppose he couldn't foresee how Homura could become a never ending wrench in his plans with her power to repeatedly turn time back.

Fumbling with the flow of time is a powerful skill. I'd say the most powerful skill imaginable. Giving away such a skill as a sort of game master is actually pretty stupid unless you attach strong limits. The only limit that Akemi might have is how long time can be stopped, but that is argueable. During the fights I thought it was maybe a few seconds, maybe a minute, but you can't just raid a weapon stash in such a short time - and if it's possible to repeat the minute again and again it's not a real limit.He clearly shot himself in the leg with that.

Storm_Shinobi wrote:

Either way QB is to be hated. Whatever justification he has, it does seem to end in the annihilation of mankind.

Why would I hate someone who brings forth the destruction of mankind? I mean, as long as it happens quick and painless... we have to die some day anyway - next year, tomorrow, in a minute, what does it matter? - and being "switched off" in the blink of an eye is the best that can happen to anyone. What I despise is the slow corrosion of our living conditions on Earth for the profit of a wealthy few.

Finally saw it... and all these weeks I was avoiding this thread just to see now that you wrote absolutely nothing about the last two episodes... *sigh*

I can sort of understand it. Whenever I watched an episode I took notes of what I found worth mentioning, and these last two fill a mere five lines. These five lines pack a serious punch, though.

The dialogue between Kyûbei and Homura at the beginning of episode 11 (or rather Kyûbei's monologue) was one hell of a vocabulary collection and I had to resort to other people's translations in order to grasp its full meaning. All I understood at my first attempt was that Homura was responsible for Madoka being the potential super-witch. So I thought he was either cleverly manipulating her by allowing her to make assumptions from his selection of information or there was something really big that I could not grasp because I lack the language skills. Turned out we have a clear and already repeated pattern: Homura has made Madoka very powerful exactly through her implicit wish to save her from harm - it looks like Homura does not travel back and maybe forth on a simple, two-dimensional timeline; instead she creates a new parallel universe of new possibilities whenever she goes back, thus creating a multitude of universes centered around Madoka, feeding her with energy sources. This well-known pattern of Greek drama still survives today, but in a sort of prolongation of the concept this great energy around Madoka is also the key to the solution.

Kyûbei also explains the Incubators with a little more detail, as he describes that certain important women in history have brought progress to mankind by having their wishes granted and turning into Mahô Shôjo - like Cleopatra and Jeanne d'Arc. Who are interesting choices; I can understand Jeanne d'Arc who had enough of a leader in her to inspire her troops and eventually save France from total English domination. But Cleopatra? She's known today for her charisma and her manipulative politics facing an awakening Roman Empire, but I've never heard of any leading or fighting abilities. Anyways, Kyûbei says that without Incubators humans would still live naked, in caves. A little too dismissive, I dare say.

I could also say something about Madoka's changing relationship to her mother, but this particular element will not be resolved satisfyingly, so I'll just drop it and skip to episode 12.

It becomes clear that Homura alone cannot do it, that is, save Madoka and the world. With Homura being down and injured Madoka takes a stand and makes her wish:She wishes to erase all witches of all times past and future out of existence with her own hands. That leaves even Kyûbei shocked, but he grants her wish. What then follows is the epilogue - covering most of the episode.

Consequently, Madoka becomes a transdimensional being, something close to a god. She redesigns the universe so that there will not be any witches who evolve from Magical Girls who actually came forth to defeat them. She saves - or rather releases - all Mahô Shôjo from their grievous tasks (you might say she kills them to give them peace) throughout history.

There's a number of really fictitious girls, like the one on the lawn, the one in the savannah environment, or the girl with the bear (tanuki?) ears. The "viking" girl surely deserves being mentioned, too, because archaeologists have still to find a single Viking helmet with horns. Cleopatra and Jeanne d'Arc are two of the "historical" figures, but there's also a girl in Shintô garb who could be argued to be Himiko, the legendary first empress of the Yamato people, later to be known as the Japanese. Of interest are also the figures who represent eras in history, notably a girl sitting in a modern battlefield ruin, her head covered by a scarf, making her look distinctively Muslim. I think this is the first occasion of a Magical Girl who is from that culture group.The other one... sits in a wooden containment of sorts and has a yellow star on her clothes. The despair that comes to mind is that the girl is Jewish, it's the early 1940s, the containment is a train car, and her destination is a concentration camp.Pretty depressing, since all these young women were just about to die defeated, and Madoka merely saves them from despair. The scenes have a melancholic beauty to them.

In the new universe, Sayaka is still dead, but Kyôko is alive? The explanation is that Sayaka has spent all her energy to save Kyôsuke... well, you can't have everything. Sayaka's spirit listens to Kyôsuke's violin play one last time and then leaves, and it is revealed that Kyôsuke will become a famous violinist in the future. Kyôko has teamed up with Mami... yes, Mahô Shôjo still exist, because demons exist. But the whole energy gathering to slow down or stop cosmic entropy does not necessitate a Magical Girl sacrifice anymore if I'm not mistaken. At least something.

Going the whole hog with her new god-like existence, Madoka erases herself from all previous registers - Mami and Kyôko have never heard of her and Madoka's family only has a single child, i.e. the little boy. Homura is the only person clearly remembering Madoka, although Madoka's (former) brother is shown drawing a Madoka-like figure and the Hiragana "MADOKA" into the sand where he plays.

It is a really good end, but I don't know whether "satisfying" is the correct adjective to describe it further. There's too much pain about the loss of Sayaka and Madoka left. Being left with "I'll always be at your side" and hearing a voice in my head I'd feel a little cheated, but I'm just not a religious person to believe in transcendental entities.

I was kinda hoping they'd go rainbows and sunshine all the way, but I guess it would feel like some kinda cop out if it really did.

Its a decent good end all things considered. Hell, I was expecting death and depression all the way actually knowing the writer's track record. This sorta ending is more or less like unicorns surfing rainbows into a butterfly sky for the writer.

While I feel cheated out of a battle against eldritch abomination QBs, it is interesting how Madoka played against the wish system by having the wish slap her in a seat of power. And now theres a beneficial relationship between both parties. Curses are gotten rid of, wishes are granted, entropy is pushed back.

And well Sayaka's fate still feels bad. But I guess they needed to drive home the point that the mahou shoujo job isn't all rainbows and sunshine even if they are now the more traditional role of preserving the peace rather than part of a whacked up food chain alien entropy plan. I guess they wanted to show a in depth scene of Madoka arriving as a pink valkyrie and fishing up magical girls into magical girl heaven. Interesting that their conversation has Sayaka regain her previous memories.

The part where humanity will still be sucking thumbs in caves without the incubators does seem out of place considering emotional energy is being used to delay the heat death of the universe... well. Plus this wouldn't be a first time aliens have developed mankind for their own purposes as far as sci fi is concerned. Rather than transcendental beings, you could always think of Madoka now as a byproduct of insane ass alien technology.

Homura's battle against Walpurgis Nacht was pretty epic, with the missile launchers everywhere and hidden cruise missiles in the sea and fuel truck surfing. You don't get such ballistic action these days. Apparently the delay was also partially due to some of the scenes that were to be in episode 11. There was to be more scenes of the shelter, which would have been in somewhat bad taste due to the recent earthquake. Along with that I hear Homura was also supposed to use a nuclear bomb which would have sent a lot of the city to hell, which in contrast to the ongoing nuclear power plant issues.... I guess that got replaced with the bizarre all these red lights equals lots of explosives death hole.

But ultimately the animation studio were probably trying to land episode 12 on Good Friday. The day Jesus was crucified, how Madoka sacrificed herself for all the magical girls throughout time and space... hence creating the influx of Goddess Madoka fanart and now theres a facebook page for the Church of Madoka.

I loved the scene when Madoka crossed time and space to rescue everybody. I thought it was powerful and I had my tears rolling.

The last scene post credits had a lot of people come up with theories left right center. Like it was the end of the world and Homura was still fighting, or Homura was low on power and Madoka was close to picking her up. Or Homura trying to break the system again to get Madoka back. Personally I prefer to think of it as a symbolic scene that behind the scenes, Homura(and Magical Girls) are still fighting the fight. Hence the passage that came before it.

There is going to be a sequel manga taking place after everything showing Mami, Kyouko and a new girl Oriko. Hence the title Mahou Shoujo Oriko Magica, which will apparently feature Homura and Madoka so that manga could shed more light on the aftermath. There is also a side manga showing a separate group of magical girls, Kazumi Magica that takes place before Madoka saved everybody. I can imagine Kazumi Magica ending in all kinds of despair...

But well I'm pretty satisfied with the conclusion overall. Probably cause I couldn't imagine how it could possibly end well. I was more or less thinking along the lines of either Homura dies and Madoka is left alone, or some evil twist where Homura was the actual target of the Incubators and the constant loops was a plan to harvest infinite energy. Or everybody dies or a cop out time loop end where Homura jumps back in time again.

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