When I was watching Shea McClellin this other kid kept flashing across the screen, he was number 90 (Winn I think)...do you know anything about him? He seemed to be getting doubled a lot and was holding his own, it looked like a lot of the plays McClellin was making was because of his help. Posted by mthurl

mt,Yes, Winn is a kid that I'm familiar with and I like what I've seen. Good size, gets off the ball well and moves very well for a kid his size, could be an option on Day 2, especially for a 1 gap/43 type team due to his ability to shoot gaps, get up the field etc.

Do you draft guys like WR Brian Quick for the Pats? 6-4, 220, long arms, basketball background. Might be a Marques Colston type in the NFL.Posted by Muzwell

Muz,Yes, right now I have a couple of "bigger" WR's on my board in Randle and McNutt. I like Quick's size, hands and body control and he projects as a solid possession WR at the NFL level, IMO, should come off the board in Day 2. He's on my watchlist and I'd be happy if he landed in Foxboro, though I prefer Randle/McNutt's level of competition.

There is a lot of talent in the draft this year. i am sure BB will draft someone that will make us scratch our heads at. I do believe he will trade one of the number ones to gain a couple of later round picks and a number one next year. I am waiting to see what free agents are picked up before I concentrate on the draft. It is always said a team builds through the free agent, draft and trade. I think that the safety position is weak this year in the draft with not much after Barron. The WR, OL and DL position is strong. I think POE has changed the profile of the draft after the combine. Moving him into a top 15 pick. This will shift a lot of players around after he is picked.

We seem to be revisiting the same draft day favorites while at the same time wondering if our favorites will still be there at #27/31. It has been widely acknowledged that the Pat's primary needs include a safety, penetrating DL and a WR. We have also been led to believe that we will lose some players on the OL.

TB has had trouble being effective against teams with a top defensive front 7 and scouts have suggested that we have been particularly vulnerable in the middle of our OL. While Connelly has filled in nicely he is undersized and more a finesse-type center than a "power" center.

I find it odd that we seem to have overlooked a blue-chip center prospect in this draft (i.e., Peter Konz) who supplies the size, bulk, and athleticism that we lack in the middle. While those are admirable measurables we also overlook this player's SMARTS in calling the OL signals. He is adept at handling double teams, adjusting to picking up the blitz and to routinely neutralizing the middle LB. His forward thrust into the defensive backfield is superior to what we have seen in the past. He would stabilize the interior of our OL, upgrade our running game and provide TB more time in the pocket to improve his efficiency.

Centers are usually not selected in the first round UNLESS they have BLUE-CHIP credentials and are considered probable candidates for later pro bowl status. There is usually only one center that receives that distinction in any draft and that depends on merit. Peter Konz is this year's BEST and would be a likely starter from day 1. Connelly would be an excellent back-up center/guard.

Ton Brady is such an important component in any SB dream that we should do everything to improve his safety and efficiency. His needs seem to rank with team needs on the defensive side of the ball, wr and safety. Peter Konz should remain in the discussion for #27/31 if he's still there when we draft!

When the Pats become too predictable as in passing nearly 70% of the time it gives defenses too much incentive to blitz and over-commit to the pass rush. We need the ability to sustain a credible running game to keep defenses honest and to control the clock when necessary. A better running game can also exhaust defenses as we control time-of-possession.

We seem to be revisiting the same draft day favorites while at the same time wondering if our favorites will still be there at #27/31. It has been widely acknowledged that the Pat's primary needs include a safety, penetrating DL and a WR. We have also been led to believe that we will lose some players on the OL. TB has had trouble being effective against teams with a top defensive front 7 and scouts have suggested that we have been particularly vulnerable in the middle of our OL. While Connelly has filled in nicely he is undersized and more a finesse-type center than a "power" center. I find it odd that we seem to have overlooked a blue-chip center prospect in this draft (i.e., Peter Konz) who supplies the size, bulk, and athleticism that we lack in the middle. While those are admirable measurables we also overlook this player's SMARTS in calling the OL signals. He is adept at handling double teams, adjusting to picking up the blitz and to routinely neutralizing the middle LB. His forward thrust into the defensive backfield is superior to what we have seen in the past. He would stabilize the interior of our OL, upgrade our running game and provide TB more time in the pocket to improve his efficiency. Centers are usually not selected in the first round UNLESS they have BLUE-CHIP credentials and are considered probable candidates for later pro bowl status. There is usually only one center that receives that distinction in any draft and that depends on merit. Peter Konz is this year's BEST and would be a likely starter from day 1. Connelly would be an excellent back-up center/guard. Ton Brady is such an important component in any SB dream that we should do everything to improve his safety and efficiency. His needs seem to rank with team needs on the defensive side of the ball, wr and safety. Peter Konz should remain in the discussion for #27/31 if he's still there when we draft! When the Pats become too predictable as in passing nearly 70% of the time it gives defenses too much incentive to blitz and over-commit to the pass rush. We need the ability to sustain a credible running game to keep defenses honest and to control the clock when necessary. A better running game can also exhaust defenses as we control time-of-possession.Posted by moskk

moskk,I don't disagree, I've had Konz high on my list for months and wouldn't at all be suprised if they took him in Rd 1. He's prob next on my list if I were to add another Rd 1 player.

If all your top 5 fell to the Pats I'd take Cox from this group. I'm still not sold on Barron. I'd rather take the big fish from the small pond (Cox) than the guy who is playing for the best D in the land. Not to undersell Barron, but I can't judge him alone when he is part of such an awesome D. Looks like some people are feeling the same way about Upshaw at the combine - might be a product of the system rather than a well-rounded product.Posted by nyjoseph

Every NFL player is a product of a system.

They're not playing sandlot football; every team has a detailed map of each position's responsibilities in any given situation.

Konz is not only the best center in the draft but almost certainly among the top five O.L. in the draft.Unfortunately,He waill be off the board by 27.If the stars align properly and the gods are with the Pats and he slips to the 27th pick I believe it would be very difficult for N.E. to pass on him unless a top mid-first round talent at DL or OLB or SS(Barren)inexplicably slides into their lap.

Konz is not only the best center in the draft but almost certainly among the top five O.L. in the draft.Unfortunately,He waill be off the board by 27.If the stars align properly and the gods are with the Pats and he slips to the 27th pick I believe it would be very difficult for N.E. to pass on him unless a top mid-first round talent at DL or OLB or SS(Barren)inexplicably slides into their lap.Posted by kebbe

So much of how we view the #17/31 picks will depend on what we do in FA to lessen our NEEDS. I would not select Barren over Konz because Barren is NOT a blue-chip prospect but rather the best of a weak safety class.

IMO one should always take a blue-chip prospect that has a game-changing potential over a need selection that is far from blue-chip. For instance, we have a critical need for a safety that is above average in pass defense ....something presently lacking in Barren's game.

As for selecting a DL that may drop in our laps none currently are classified as blue-chip so our choice would be one of perceived need outweighing skill-set. We could get lucky but the sure bet is the blue-chip prospect that would substantially improve our OL. I hope that we do something noteworthy in FA so that we aren't forced to make tough decisions governed by perceived need rather than the BPA.

In Response to Re: My Draft Board *UPDATED 3/3!* : Noise, Are you thinking of #6 on South Carolina (#6 on Georgia is a huge NT)? That would be Melvin Ingram, he's in this draft class yes, should be off the board in the top 15-20.Posted by mbeaulieu07

You could be right MB07, maybe I'm getting the guys confused then. I thought Georgia though had this beast on the line too, which I thought was relentless. Yeah, plenty of info on Mr Ingram from SC. :)

I hope you're right. But, after doing some preliminary research before launching my first 2012 mock draft, I don't think that Cox, Upshaw, or Barron will be around when the Pats pick at #27.

I know that you like Kendall Reyes for the Pats as a possible choice at #48. But, after seeing what UConn players Donald Brown, Orlovski, and the forgettable Darius Butler have accomplished in the league, I'd stay away. There's something to be said for playing against quality competition. The Big East isn't much of a football conference, compared to the SEC, Big Ten, and Pac 10.

I also don't see Cordy Glenn slipping out of the first round. The 2012 class appears to be with lots of second and third round types. Not all that many blue-chippers.

I see the Pats having shots at Glenn, Peter Konz, and the good TEs at #27 (should the Pats take another TE, and shift Aaron Hernandez to WR?) The better defenders will likely be long gone.

Mb 07 What do you think of Omar Boldin, from Arizona State cb. who did not play this past year.Posted by patriots44

pat,One of the posters on the draft thread had mentioned him as well, he's a kid that I need to research more, thanks.

For late round CB's, check out Ron Brooks from LSU, he was their nickel corner and only started (3) games last year, but made a ton of plays with his limited reps and would be at the very least a quality ST player. He's 5-10 190 and ran in the high 4.3 - low 4.4 range.

In Response to My Draft Board *UPDATED 3/3!* : I hope you're right. But, after doing some preliminary research before launching my first 2012 mock draft, I don't think that Cox, Upshaw, or Barron will be around when the Pats pick at #27. I know that you like Kendall Reyes for the Pats as a possible choice at #48. But, after seeing what UConn players Donald Brown, Orlovski, and the forgettable Darius Butler have accomplished in the league, I'd stay away. There's something to be said for playing against quality competition. The Big East isn't much of a football conference, compared to the SEC, Big Ten, and Pac 10. I also don't see Cordy Glenn slipping out of the first round. The 2012 class appears to be with lots of second and third round types. Not all that many blue-chippers. I see the Pats having shots at Glenn, Peter Konz, and the good TEs at #27 (should the Pats take another TE, and shift Aaron Hernandez to WR?) The better defenders will likely be long gone. Posted by TexasPat3

As expected the results of the Combine have shifted opinions in favor of measurables as better indicators of future success than past production (ref. mock drafts). I wonder if this preoccupation with measurables (size, weight, speed etc) hasn't increased our appetite for player "potential" to a dangerous degree!

Analysts seem to project Brockers readiness to play as being LIMITED to running downs and expect pass rush abilities to emerge in 2-3 years so that he will be a 3 down DL in 2-3 years. WR Hill who demonstrated 4.3/40 speed even had some Mock drafts projecting him as a 1st round draft choice. It was hoped that his "inconsistent-hands) and clumsy route running would improve as he develops with pro coaching. Still, plagued with an off and on motor, and despite an unimpressive Combine performance is projected as a first round talent because of his run defense but he lacks the skill-set to rush the passer. It is hoped that pass rush ability will improve over time.

Something seems to be amiss or foregotten in this frantic search to solve the Pat's problems. Were'nt we committed to providing Tom Brady with a full deck of cards to maximize his remaining 3-4 years? How then can we place a premium on players who project to be useful contributors in 2-3 years? Is not the clock ticking?

Faucetman, as is his style, has once again reminded us that it may be safer to select players with a KNOWN SKILL-SET rather than trusting for a desirable skill-set to develop. In looking for a pass-rush specialist, he prefers even a "one-trick pony" who already has a demonstrated pass rush skill-set to taking a player with other skills and hoping for that player to "develop" a pass rush ability. Just look at the sparse number of DL with a pass rush ability and the many others who NEVER developed that skill set.

What is equally confusing is that when a Blue-chip prospect is available, one that is expected to start and contribute from day 1 in a BIG way, is overlooked because we are committed to improving our DEFENSE as priority #1. Are we not also trying to improve the Pats also priority #1? Is not a bird in the hand worth two in the bush?

So what's the message? IMO we should be looking for immediate help for BOTH the team as well as Tom Brady. The easy solution (but costly) is to get a pass-rush 3 down DL in FA. Secondly, a safety or CB option in FA. Lastly, a second tier WR experienced in the Pats system.

This leaves us (in the draft) with the luxury to augment those FA acquisitions with Blue-chip players first and then address players who show promise as starters in 1-2-3 years. Our primary needs would be addressed and quality back-ups acquired as well.

As a reminder, only draft players with a proven skill-set to minimize disappointment (don't select WRs who run poor routes, who have inconsistent hands, who can't adjust to wayward balls and who won't fight for possession. To the extent that a they demonstrate an above average skill set one can factor in measurables to project future stardom). Select players with an active motor, especially on the DL/OL etc.... Lastly, we want "field-fast" FOOTBALL players and not players with "potential" (to develop) as a first priority!

In Response to Re: My Draft Board *UPDATED 3/3!* : As expected the results of the Combine have shifted opinions in favor of measurables as better indicators of future success than past production (ref. mock drafts). I wonder if this preoccupation with measurables (size, weight, speed etc) hasn't increased our appetite for player "potential" to a dangerous degree! Analysts seem to project Brockers readiness to play as being LIMITED to running downs and expect pass rush abilities to emerge in 2-3 years so that he will be a 3 down DL in 2-3 years. WR Hill who demonstrated 4.3/40 speed even had some Mock drafts projecting him as a 1st round draft choice. It was hoped that his "inconsistent-hands) and clumsy route running would improve as he develops with pro coaching. Still, plagued with an off and on motor, and despite an unimpressive Combine performance is projected as a first round talent because of his run defense but he lacks the skill-set to rush the passer. It is hoped that pass rush ability will improve over time. Something seems to be amiss or foregotten in this frantic search to solve the Pat's problems. Were'nt we committed to providing Tom Brady with a full deck of cards to maximize his remaining 3-4 years? How then can we place a premium on players who project to be useful contributors in 2-3 years? Is not the clock ticking? Faucetman, as is his style, has once again reminded us that it may be safer to select players with a KNOWN SKILL-SET rather than trusting for a desirable skill-set to develop. In looking for a pass-rush specialist, he prefers even a "one-trick pony" who already has a demonstrated pass rush skill-set to taking a player with other skills and hoping for that player to "develop" a pass rush ability. Just look at the sparse number of DL with a pass rush ability and the many others who NEVER developed that skill set. What is equally confusing is that when a Blue-chip prospect is available, one that is expected to start and contribute from day 1 in a BIG way, is overlooked because we are committed to improving our DEFENSE as priority #1. Are we not also trying to improve the Pats also priority #1? Is not a bird in the hand worth two in the bush? So what's the message? IMO we should be looking for immediate help for BOTH the team as well as Tom Brady. The easy solution (but costly) is to get a pass-rush 3 down DL in FA. Secondly, a safety or CB option in FA. Lastly, a second tier WR experienced in the Pats system. This leaves us (in the draft) with the luxury to augment those FA acquisitions with Blue-chip players first and then address players who show promise as starters in 1-2-3 years. Our primary needs would be addressed and quality back-ups acquired as well. As a reminder, only draft players with a proven skill-set to minimize disappointment (don't select WRs who run poor routes, who have inconsistent hands, who can't adjust to wayward balls and who won't fight for possession. To the extent that a they demonstrate an above average skill set one can factor in measurables to project future stardom). Select players with an active motor, especially on the DL/OL etc.... Lastly, we want "field-fast" FOOTBALL players and not players with "potential" (to develop) as a first priority!Posted by moskk

From what I've read and seen (watched LSU play several times this season), I see Brockers as a project. A #1 pick should not be used on a project...but on a guy that can contribute immediately.

In Response to My Draft Board *UPDATED 3/3!* : I hope you're right. But, after doing some preliminary research before launching my first 2012 mock draft, I don't think that Cox, Upshaw, or Barron will be around when the Pats pick at #27. I know that you like Kendall Reyes for the Pats as a possible choice at #48. But, after seeing what UConn players Donald Brown, Orlovski, and the forgettable Darius Butler have accomplished in the league, I'd stay away. There's something to be said for playing against quality competition. The Big East isn't much of a football conference, compared to the SEC, Big Ten, and Pac 10. I also don't see Cordy Glenn slipping out of the first round. The 2012 class appears to be with lots of second and third round types. Not all that many blue-chippers. I see the Pats having shots at Glenn, Peter Konz, and the good TEs at #27 (should the Pats take another TE, and shift Aaron Hernandez to WR?) The better defenders will likely be long gone. Posted by TexasPat3

TP,Upshaw, Cox and Barron could very well be off the board at 27, I don't disagree. I also think they're (3) players that BB could trade up for if they're on the board in the early-mid 20's.

I'd be happy with Hightower or Konz or Glenn or Gilmore etc. after that and wouldn't be shocked if they took a Fleener or Allen or even OG Kevin Zeitler at the back of Rd 1.

I likely won't project a WR in Rd 1, but Rueben Randle could be the shocker there... I prefer/project them to take a WR from Rd 2 on.

If they're looking for ultra-talented character risks, Janoris Jenkins or Alshon Jeffery would then join the convo... both kids have impact potential, but I don't see them taking the risk in Rd 1.

I like that you now have Gilmore in round 1. I believe the Pats will only draft one db (use FA for additonal dbs) and I'd prefer Gilmore over Barron. Only question is can the Pats get him at 31 or do they have to take him at 27 (assuming he's there). I don't think any of your other 1st rounders will be available for the Pats meaning they will probably trade out and focus on 2nd rounders.

I like that you now have Gilmore in round 1. I believe the Pats will only draft one db (use FA for additonal dbs) and I'd prefer Gilmore over Barron. Only question is can the Pats get him at 31 or do they have to take him at 27 (assuming he's there). I don't think any of your other 1st rounders will be available for the Pats meaning they will probably trade out and focus on 2nd rounders.Posted by sfpat

sf,I've had Gilmore there for quite a while now, love that he's an effective zone CB, has the size and ability to play some press, and the tackling ability to be utilized at S... he also has a ton of quality SEC experience having started since he walked on campus and has value on ST... a true 4 down kid.

As of right now, I think he should be available at 31, but can never be completely sure.

I think this is a year where BB could move up for a player if they fall to the early/mid 20's as the rookie salary cap has provided a reduced financial risk for teams.

In Response to Re: My Draft Board *UPDATED 3/3!* : If they're looking for ultra-talented character risks, Janoris Jenkins or Alshon Jeffery would then join the convo... both kids have impact potential, but I don't see them taking the risk in Rd 1.Posted by mbeaulieu07

This brings up a question I had for you MB, Walter Football has the Pats taking Donte Paige-Moss (DE/OLB, NC) in the 4rth, who apparently is a headache, I've heard nothing about him at all, you?

In Response to Re: My Draft Board *UPDATED 3/3!* : This brings up a question I had for you MB, Walter Football has the Pats taking Donte Paige-Moss (DE/OLB, NC) in the 4rth, who apparently is a headache, I've heard nothing about him at all, you?Posted by wmasschilly

wm,Full disclosure, I'm really not a fan of UNC players, they always seem to be overrated, athletic boom-bust types. With that being said, I'd have no problem with BB taking a chance on this type of player in Rd 4.