Update on Large Hadron Collider, or Fun with Nuclear Physics

A while back, I wrote about the Large Hadron Collider in CERN Switzerland that was due to start up in May. Well folks, that story has been developing significantly. The LHC is the newest, biggest particle accelerator ever. Physicists are very excited by the prospects of this amazing machine starting up because it will allow them to study aspects of sub-atomic particles that will answer questions about the nature of the universe.

The imminent big question is whether use of LHC will cause doomsday for our planet! The physicists who want to get the Collider going say that the fears are based on outlandish theoretical possibilities. Nonetheless if any of these fears prove true they could spell the end of Earth. But how much have you heard about this relatively important news story? “Nada,” you say, but you’ve been hearing non-stop about Barack Obama’s bowling score. Hmmm. Twenty-four hour news channels and no word of a possible matter-eating black hole in Switzerland which could end the world.

At the time of my last posting the LHC was due to start-up in May. Now I hear the experiments will begin in August. In addition to the Russian scientists, Irina Aref’eva and Igor Volovich who have voiced fears, now Walter Wagner, a former nuclear safety officer, and Luis Sancho have filed a lawsuit in Hawaii (?) to stop the start-up.

What do these people think could happen?

1) A miniature black hole which could swallow the Earth (or just the LHC) .

2) Creation of strangelet particles which could turn all other particles they touch into strangelets too.

3) Magnetic mono-poles (large particles with only one magnetic pole) could be created which could turn atoms into an alternate form of matter.

There is a lot of fodder here for science fiction or very dark humor or maybe even a real doomsday. Frankly I think we are much more likely to be wiped out by an overpopulation of the human species sped up by mass die-outs of bees and other pollinators (birds and bats) but it would be nice to be aware that one day in August might be our last.

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21 Responses to “Update on Large Hadron Collider, or Fun with Nuclear Physics”

A quote from an article by Jenny Thompson at HSI:
Dr. Nima Arkani-Hamed, a particle theorist at Princeton, has a unique take on the controversy. He told the New York Times that while there’s probably no merit to the fear that the collider will produce a killer black hole, in the world of quantum physics almost anything could happen. “The Large Hadron Collider might make dragons that might eat us up.”
Somehow I am not comforted.

I could go into detail on how th LHC will not destroy the world but there only really one thing that proves that it won’t.
The Earth, Moon, planets, asteroids, comets and all other objects in the universe are being bombarded by cosmic rays on a daily basis, cosmic rays made of particles with higher energy than the LHC will use.
If the LHC could destroy the world, it wouldn’t be here to destroy.

Dear Lone Wolf,
Thanks for your comment. I hope you are correct. Clearly those who built it assume as much, but there are some equally competent scientists who beg to differ. Again, I hope you are right…

These people who “beg to differ” are not scientists and are not competent. This isn’t even the first time Walter Wagner tried to stop the construction of a particle colder. He said the same thing would happen when they turn on the RHIC and thats been on sense 2000.

Thanks for your comment. Perhaps we are in a virtual reality as some mathematicians suggested! Hope level 2 isn’t harder than the level we’re on. 🙂
But seriously, the issue here is that no one is truly sure what the outcome will be, and it’s a big gamble to take with the planet.
Best,
Fahrusha

But its not gambling with the planet. The arguments that the LHC with destroy the would are based on very little science taken to a point it in no way suggests. And it ignores the fact that cosmic rays with much higher energy’s strike the earth moon and all other object tin the universe. If the LHC could destroy the world, it would not bee here.

The start up of the LHC is a very potentially dangerous event…..look at the simple physics of what happens when you create a vortex over water…it creates a type of vaccum that resembles a black hole…if you consider that the 17mile tunnel under the Lake Geneva…is setting up the similar circumstances….then to imagine or conjecture that only good will come of this ….leaves me thinking that you have not been open to the scientific reality…..the vacuum.,…vortex…will open dimensions that were only imagined to exist….once that door is open it is a Pandoras box that can not be shut again…..yes the positive potential is blinding…the negative potential is also blinding….the reality is we won;t know until the switch is thrown to turn it full tilt on….but in the preparations…it has been partially active and already we have seen environmental and geologic effects…not to mention the effects on the human body…..it is ignorant to assume that only a positive outcome is going to be achieved….and an unenlightened opinion of someone who dares not look into the future….this is much more intense and potentially hazardous than any cosmic ray or sunspot…..get a grip and look more intelligently at what is being put into place here !!!!!!!!

Lone Wolf,
Are you a nuclear physicist or do you just have enormous faith in authority? Just think about how Madam Curie died experimenting with radioactive sustances. Also ponder how many substances physicians and scientists have said were good for people, only having to retract their statements the following year because the substance was found to cause death. If we are lucky nothing will happen, but even scientists disagree.

No I am not a physicist and I do not hold any faith in anything. But what I do, do is look shit up. Thats right I spend time looking things up to gain a better understanding and grater knowledge. And if others did that they world find that nothing in the known physics of this universe says that the LHC could destroy the world. And nothing in the physics of this universe known or unknown says that the LHC could destroy the world. How do we know this? Cosmic rays with higher energy’s that the LHC hit the earth, moon, sun planets in the solar system, asteroids and comets in the solar system, the oort cloud and all objects in all solar systems in the universe and there all still here.

think of it this way:
to gain we must lose.
E.g we construct a beautiful piece of wooden furniture at the price of 1 or 2 beautiful Trees.
A Delicate fur coat – Eradication of a specific species etc.

Putting this into practice
There are going to be alot of positives that come out of this experiment, they could possibly change the future of science and mankind BUT what will happen to other things around the globe. will it cause a shift in the plates? what will happen if it causes a vortex effect? Pandora’s box?

so we wont know UNTIL it actually happens.
until then we just carry on with our lives, oblivious to it all.

Dear Lone Wolf, Daisy, Pat and Darroch,
You have all made me very happy in that my blog has elicited some unusual and interesting thought.
A small update is that the collider has been fired and we are still here. A few “buts” on that are that there was an incident during the night when part of the cooling system that chills the LHC’s 9300 superconducting magnets failed. Not good. Especially since the LHC can produce heat 100,000 times hotter than that of the Sun’s core.
It has also been said that CERN employees are forbidden to voice their fears about LHC’s safety.
The collider was not on for a long period of time. The enormous risks of firing up LHC though possibly infinitesimal in terms of chance, are too great to be undertaken without more study.
Best,
Fahrusha

A small update is that the collider has been fired and we are still here. A few “buts” on that are that there was an incident during the night when part of the cooling system that chills the LHC’s 9300 superconducting magnets failed. Not good. Especially since the LHC can produce heat 100,000 times hotter than that of the Sun’s core.
It has also been said that CERN employees are forbidden to voice their fears about LHC’s safety.

May I ask for the source of this information?

There is no danger from the LHC, if there was, cosmic rays would have long ago caused the destruction of the earth.

you people and your science. im vary science oriented but I also understand that there are things humans cannot see past or at all. are physics and science is not yet advanced enough to be playing around with such force. what if there are particles that exist that we have not descovered yet? that our technology cannot detect.and what if it interacts with the LHC? we do not know everything. what you speak of that there IS no danger is a perfect example of how nieve the human species is. we will bring our own destruction wether it be with the LHC or something else. we are descovering new things every day, things people overlooked or never thought was possible. just because the power and ability is there doesnt mean we should use it. that is the main foundation of science,trial and error. this is a trial. it will either be sucessfull or will be an error. but if something so big and powerfull becomes an error. we cannot simply start over again. its is a one shot deal. we think we know whats going to happen, but keep in mind. anything can happen, simply because we have never tampered with such a force. we can only predict off what we have done. but what happens when the outcome is completly diffrent then what weve done before this?

The source of the information on the cooling system malfunction was New Scientist Magazine online. I could not refind the article online about the CERN employees that I initially had read, but two things on that are I did find an article dealing with arguments about who can edit the LHC info on Wikipedia and this other related article: http://www.lhcfacts.org/?p=70
If I recover the employee article I will post the web address here. In addition a Greek group of hackers hacked into the CERN system, supposedly to prove it could be done. This is potentially dangerous. And I also read that though the collider got started up it won’t start smashing particles until October. Maybe I’m mistaken but I don’t believe the cosmic rays which regularly strike the Earth are super heated to 100,000 times hotter that the Sun and travelling at near the speed of light.
Still I sincerely hope you are correct and nothing goes wrong.
Best,
Fahrusha

You need to look for a good source cause thats not.
It states one of the source is Otto Rossler but is is a biochemist not a physicist and just cause he is a scientists doesn’t mean he’s right, scientists are just as humans as the rest of us. And it also uses Walter L. Wagner as a source who said the same thing about the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider[2] and thats been running for 10 years.
Plus they both ignore the fact that cosmic rays with much higher energy strike all object in the universe every day (yes, they do have higher energy’s, some higher by many orders of magnitude). So many strike that earth that there is a hypothesis that they play a role in lightening

Note: I did have sources but every time I tried to reply it took me to a page with only the world “discarded”

Found your post doing research for another article. Something you should all understand, Walter L. Wagner is a crank and his warning message is pure nonsense.

And in reality, it’s far worse than that. Walter L. Wagner is a complete and total fraud, and dangerously mentally ill. He is not now, nor ever has been, a “Doctor” of any kind. He is not a lawyer as he claims and never has been, and the details of his ‘law’ education are disturbing to an astounding degree. He is not a doctor of physics of any kind – and the most he can point to is some undergrad coursework in general physics and some time as a minor lab tech, while obtaining an undergraduate degree in biology from UC Berkeley. He’s been convicted of disturbing crimes, and is currently under indictment for embezzlement in Hawaii, both of which have direct bearing on his credibility. His supposed scientific research papers are actually a single letter to the editor of Scientific American published in July 1999 and soundly debunked in the same issue. Again, this was a letter to the editor, not an actual article. His claim to Radiation Safety Officer can most charitably be called an exaggeration, he was the guy who checked the film badges and x-ray machine insulation at the VA hospital in San Francisco for about five years in the early 80’s. Every single thing this man has claimed is a preposterous fabrication and a construct of his disturbed mind.

I don’t expect you to take my word for it, however you can find confirmed and validated details at the following links:

Refugees from the City – The original post which turned the baleful eye of the UCF blogger community on Wagner in the first place and where Wagner and James Tankersley’s (a vocal Wagner supporter) credentials are soundly debunked in the comments thread. Wagner and Tankersley both were active in this thread.

Refugees from the City Where wagner’s so called science is debunked and James Bloggett (another wagnerite) gets handed his ass and change.

and finally a detailed examination of Wagner’s falsified law career can be found here along with validated evidence of Wagner’s history.

Note all of these blogs are linked together are part of the UCF online community, however they do provide links to externally validated information. All are being updated continuously. Wagner and his supporters regard that as evidence of a global conspiracy to cloud their ‘message,’ and you may make of that what you will.

Understand, we are not physicists, though our group does contain a number of accredited and highly regarded scientists, attorneys, military professions, and other highly educated people. We agree wholeheartedly that large science must proceed with care and proper regard for public safety, but we are vehemently opposed to the type of fraudulent hysteria surrounding and created by Walter Wagner and his followers.

His credentials are a fraud, and there’s no reason whatsoever to take his claims regarding the LHC seriously.

Dear Jim Wright,
Thank you for your post. Currently I do not have the time to check out your claims about Walter Wagner. Perhaps I will in the future. Alleging a criminal background is a serious accusation. As a legal note I must state I do not endorse your statement, though I am allowing it to be posted in the spirit of freedom of the press.
I am glad you are willing to admit that you are not a particle physicist. I would only say that Walter Wagner is not the only person who is skeptical about the safety of the LHC. In addition there have been issues with the LHC since it was started up including, if I correctly remember, cooling problems and a group of hackers that got into their computer system.
Let us not forget what happened to Madame Curie and her husband, scientists both, who died of radiation poisoning. I am aware that radiation poisoning is not the issue in this case, but it does illustrate how experimenting scientists can unwittingly unleash destructive forces. I do know that the Curies did recognize what had happened to them before they died. They proceeded anyway for the advancement of science. We owe them a debt of gratitude on some level.
Best,
Fahrusha

Fahrusha, thank you. And I agree that alleging a criminal background is a serious accusation, however in this case it’s backed up with the actual court documents, which are obtainable through the FOIA, and online via the LEXIS Legal database. Direct access to the documents in question are available at the Giant Midgets link in my previous comment. Again, thank you for your willingness to at least listen.

One thing to note: none of the other ‘scientists’ in Wagner’s camp are particle physicists either.

Mr Wright writes: “I retract the statement the Wagner is a convicted criminal. But only the specific term Convicted Criminal.” [2] and “I retract the statement that Wagner lied under oath, or lied to me.” [2]