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Well said Firehouse Labs..... And I think another aspect, is being big enough to recognize what makes your dog happy. I get criticized at my office from coworkers who could never send off their loved dogs.....I don't think they realize how much I love my dog to put her thru training!......

Thank you Firehouse!!! Somebody needed to say it. My dogs love their winters with the trainer ANDall their k-9 buddies. They get work six days a week and birds every day......Sorry not many Am's can do that on a regular basis.

And here is what happens in the average day to day life of a family dog:
Alarms go off, people running around getting ready to go to work, school, daycare, church, what have you. People starting talking louder as they rush to shower, shave, the other "s" word, get dressed, get others dressed, fix breakfast, do last minute homework, fix lunches, find a new outfit because someone spilled syrup on you, find car keys, backpacks, books, phones, etc..
All the while poor fido is looking for attention, food, and needing to go to the bathroom. He is being told to go lay down, get out of the way, others are trying to sneak him food under the table so he is now under foot again. If he is lucky, he gets banished to the back yard, "finally! I get to pee!". If he is REALLY lucky, someone on the way out will remember to let him back in, and maybe throw him some kibble and refill his bowl. Of course if that is the responsibility of the one of the teenagers who is out for three different sports, or the one with the brand new boyfriend that she is trying to impress- and after all, dog hair and slobber are NOT cool- then that just might get left off their "things to do" list.
During the day, fido will either: a) lounge in the yard b) lounge in the crate in the house c) lounge in kennel in the yard or d) lounge on the furniture in house, for which he may or may not have privileges. That day could be 8 hours, but most likely closer to 11 depending on where owners work, traffic, how many other stops they make on the way home, etc.. Once they get home, it's homework time, supper time, and for half the year, its dark outside. If the kids have sports and practices, its even later for most of the family, if not all of them. Next comes bath time, a favorite tv show, and by golly its already 10:00pm and time for the news, weather, and bed!
But hey, the weekend is free, right? Depends on how good your wife is with chores, housecleaning, and laundry. And if you are the one having to do this by your self, you know that the little fairies don't come nearly as often to do it in real life, unlike all those cute little stories. Then there is that pesky lawn that keeps growing, leaves that need raked, that leaky roof, banging shutter, the strange noise that your car is making, your 3rd cousin twice removed's wedding that your spouse/mother is making you go to, and then your beer drinking buddies come over with an invite for a game of poker, BBQ, or you wife decides that you owe her and the kids some quality time at a flea market, not to mention that basketball game that your star son is playing in an hour and a half up the road.

Life is busy. Dogs, by their patient and loving manner, often get left behind in the shuffle. They go about their day, trying to garner some affection and attention, but until or unless they implode into a quivering, barking, bouncing off the walls, destructive beast, they rarely get all that they need or deserve. I am talking about those dogs that are very low key, laid back animals. Put a FT bred to the hilt working dog into a situation evenly remotely like this, and you will make that dog a neurotic mess.
Given the choice of laying on the couch and getting her belly rubbed for two hours while I am watching a movie, and 2 or 3 hours a week training or spending as totally "dog time", or being able to spend 6 out of 7 days a week in the field training for that same amount of time a day (I use a smaller business trainer, only takes on 6 dogs)? My dog will rocket off that couch to plow over the trainer at the door and will be doing the happy dance in front of "her" box on the trailer, if she isn't already riding on top of it.
My dog loves me....but she LOVES her trainer. And since I am paying him to bring out the very best of her FT breeding, that is the way it should be. If I should breed her down the road, I want her pups to have the same opportunity, which means that the best buyers would be those that are already well established in the hunt test/field trial game with either the talent or the money to bring out those same qualities in the pup that they get.

Apples and oranges. See my first post on this thread for what I feel is a proper lifestyle comparison.

BTW, as I indicated in my last post on this thread....."Six days in the field "... 12 sets of marks and 12 blinds, or maybe a drill or two one day insted of one or the other ? On an AA Pros truck that would equate to about the same 3 maybe 4 hours.

Add another 10 or 12 hours over the six days being staked out and that still leaves a lot of truck time.

john

"i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

With 24 dogs in training, if the pro never sleeps they would have 1 hr per day per dog . Realistically it is more like 12 hr days with 1/2 hr per day per dog.
Add in some (2)help at 1/2 hr each per dog and you are now up to 1 1/2 MH hrs per day per dog to. Air the dog, wash down the kennel, load up, pick up the airing yard, drive to the training grounds, set up the ''setup", run the setup, set up and run another, run a few blinds, feed and air the dogs, drive back to the kennel , unload.........

While you aren't doing anything, you can cook, eat, clean up the kitchen, go to the vet, catch feed and water the fliers, pick up or drop off a few dogs at the air port. ,try to get a few bitches bred, clean the truck, clean the house,do your laundry, grocery shop etc,etc,etc.........

I went on enough winter trips to know..... There just is not enough hours in the day for much "1 on 1" ( touch feely)with the dogs

And here is what happens in the average day to day life of a family dog:
Alarms go off, people running around getting ready to go to work, school, daycare, church, what have you. People starting talking louder as they rush to shower, shave, the other "s" word, get dressed, get others dressed, fix breakfast, do last minute homework, fix lunches, find a new outfit because someone spilled syrup on you, find car keys, backpacks, books, phones, etc..
All the while poor fido is looking for attention, food, and needing to go to the bathroom. He is being told to go lay down, get out of the way, others are trying to sneak him food under the table so he is now under foot again. If he is lucky, he gets banished to the back yard, "finally! I get to pee!". If he is REALLY lucky, someone on the way out will remember to let him back in, and maybe throw him some kibble and refill his bowl. Of course if that is the responsibility of the one of the teenagers who is out for three different sports, or the one with the brand new boyfriend that she is trying to impress- and after all, dog hair and slobber are NOT cool- then that just might get left off their "things to do" list.
During the day, fido will either: a) lounge in the yard b) lounge in the crate in the house c) lounge in kennel in the yard or d) lounge on the furniture in house, for which he may or may not have privileges. That day could be 8 hours, but most likely closer to 11 depending on where owners work, traffic, how many other stops they make on the way home, etc.. Once they get home, it's homework time, supper time, and for half the year, its dark outside. If the kids have sports and practices, its even later for most of the family, if not all of them. Next comes bath time, a favorite tv show, and by golly its already 10:00pm and time for the news, weather, and bed!
But hey, the weekend is free, right? Depends on how good your wife is with chores, housecleaning, and laundry. And if you are the one having to do this by your self, you know that the little fairies don't come nearly as often to do it in real life, unlike all those cute little stories. Then there is that pesky lawn that keeps growing, leaves that need raked, that leaky roof, banging shutter, the strange noise that your car is making, your 3rd cousin twice removed's wedding that your spouse/mother is making you go to, and then your beer drinking buddies come over with an invite for a game of poker, BBQ, or you wife decides that you owe her and the kids some quality time at a flea market, not to mention that basketball game that your star son is playing in an hour and a half up the road.

Life is busy. Dogs, by their patient and loving manner, often get left behind in the shuffle. They go about their day, trying to garner some affection and attention, but until or unless they implode into a quivering, barking, bouncing off the walls, destructive beast, they rarely get all that they need or deserve. I am talking about those dogs that are very low key, laid back animals. Put a FT bred to the hilt working dog into a situation evenly remotely like this, and you will make that dog a neurotic mess.

Given the choice of laying on the couch and getting her belly rubbed for two hours while I am watching a movie, and 2 or 3 hours a week training or spending as totally "dog time", or being able to spend 6 out of 7 days a week in the field training for that same amount of time a day (I use a smaller business trainer, only takes on 6 dogs)? My dog will rocket off that couch to plow over the trainer at the door and will be doing the happy dance in front of "her" box on the trailer, if she isn't already riding on top of it.
My dog loves me....but she LOVES her trainer. And since I am paying him to bring out the very best of her FT breeding, that is the way it should be. If I should breed her down the road, I want her pups to have the same opportunity, which means that the best buyers would be those that are already well established in the hunt test/field trial game with either the talent or the money to bring out those same qualities in the pup that they get.

I'm extremely confident the type of home you describe above isn't interested in purchasing a $1,500 - $2,500 FT dog. I also stated that my dogs hunt and were able to run, swim and retrieve daily. If you spent 20 hrs a day in a kennel you'd love to spend time with your trainer also. As a result, I find your post largely irrelevant to the original question.

During this recent search, I had two breeders refuse to sell me a pup because I was unsure if I would place him in FT or HT at the time. One stated, "placing such a well bred dog with a family is a waste of genetics". That was his attitude even though I live on the water and our dogs run/swim/retrieve EVERY day. While I understand breeding dogs is a business to some, I think they have forgotten that "quality of life" is a concept that applies to our four legged friends as well.

I expressed the above to a successful Field trialer recently. He responded by saying my dog likely had a better life than many many FT dogs. What do you think?

I think this is just another "values" debate, about which there can be no answer.

. It is about matching the needs/desires/ability of the dog with the owner. FT breeders are just that. FT breeders. They are not pet breeders, or weekend warrior hunting breeders. Their goal is to produce the best FT puppy. In order to do that, they must invest a ton of money, time, and luck into each and every breeding. In order to recoup a fraction of that cost, they must advertise the high qualities of their litter- and since the proof is in the pudding- they do that by producing winners. Can't produce a winner if it is sitting in someones backyard.

Excellent post. Deserves repeating.

Don's girls:
FC AFC Flyway's Ruby B. Gonia - a Carbon daughter and now a grandma (my avatar)
FC AFC Flyway's Long Tall Sally - Ruby's daughter. Bred to FC AFC Nike which produced Maggie.
Flyway's Iron Lady (Maggie) - Ruby's granddaughter. Maggie's the new puppy in the house. She is now running in the Derby.

I'm extremely confident the type of home you describe above isn't interested in purchasing a $1,500 - $2,500 FT dog. I also stated that my dogs hunt and were able to run, swim and retrieve daily. If you spent 20 hrs a day in a kennel you'd love to spend time with your trainer also. As a result, I find your post largely irrelevant to the original question.

So, the next question is, would that $1500-$2500 FT dog make you any better of a house/hunt/play dog than an $500-$1500 dog?

So, the next question is, would that $1500-$2500 FT dog make you any better of a house/hunt/play dog than an $500-$1500 dog?

I've owned two FT dogs and one "normal" Labrador. The FT dogs had far more drive and were more intelligent. They fit my lifestyle better than a normal house pet. Not sure exactly what your point is. I'm not against FT in any way. As I stated, I plan to place this new pup with a pro for part of the yr. I simply asked which environment was the most rewarding for the dog. I'm not judging anyone.

However, I do have a strong opinion about the dog who is shuttled between trainers, spends his life in a kennel and is used solely for competing in trials. Fortunately, I think that type of situation is the exception

I don't agree at all. No matter how well bred they can make excellent house dogs. I own dogs out of AFC Ready, Shaq, Ford and Ali. Some of them make better house dogs than working dogs. They will all sleep in the bed and cause zero trouble although the oldest has been a work in progress. My question to you would be what do you have to base your opinion on? How many of these said dogs do you have experience with?I haven't had many but I've yet to find one that isint a good pet.

Originally Posted by Duckquilizer

It's in our human nature to try to re-invent the wheel. It is a business, but most breeders are ultimately trying to better the (thier) breed. A couch dog does nothing for proving that. Its not only FT dogs that are like this. Many high bred HT dog's are WAY to much for average house pets. All this is generalization but, it's a high percentage one. You will have to think about the big picture and not just your home, which I'm sure would be a great one.