I have an older Chenming case (An Alien Green Monster, kind of cool in it's day, but noisy..) I'm going to use for the moment, until I decide on a more permanent, silent case.

I have never used an SSD in a system before, and need advice. This will be a clean, Win 7 Pro install. I have a couple of questions....

Also, if this subject has been discussed elswhere in the forums, I'd welcome direction to those posts....

The questions:

Do I format the SSDs just like a magnetic disc drive? The 500 GB drive is where my OS is going to be. I'm going to use the 256 GB drive for my Photoshop/Lightroom program files, maybe a bit of storage. The 3 TB WD drive will be primarily for backup, storage, and program files for less important programs, where speed isnt necessary, etc. At least this is my preliminary plan.

I imagine I need to format each SSD/HD before use. I've built several computers now, but it's been awhile since my last build. Will I need any other software, other than current drivers for each of my components, before I start? Is it still smart to download the most current, stable drivers from each manufacturers web site, and use those?

I'm also migrating from XP Pro, and wonder if the new comp build/install is different in a way that I need to know about before I start.

Thanks for any and all advice, now that I'm finally starting my build?

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:23 am

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:20 amPosts: 571Location: Ottawa

oregonxfile wrote:

Do I format the SSDs just like a magnetic disc drive? The 500 GB drive is where my OS is going to be. I'm going to use the 256 GB drive for my Photoshop/Lightroom program files, maybe a bit of storage. The 3 TB WD drive will be primarily for backup, storage, and program files for less important programs, where speed isnt necessary, etc. At least this is my preliminary plan.

Yes, you install just like a normal HDD. Assuming the SSD is brand new, the Win 7 installer will see it as blank and auto-create the partitions it needs. It will align them properly for an SSD. Just make sure your BIOS is set to AHCI before you install. For simplicity you may wish to only hook up your OS SSD first, then connect the 2nd SSD and HD after the install is complete.

You will not need any drivers other than the disk controller ones. Unless there is a need to, just leave the standard Win 7 AHCI drivers in place.

Not saying you have a bad build, but if you are concerned enough about lightroom performance to dedicate an SSD to it you should really go with a current Intel CPU. An i7 is best, but a high clocked i5 will give you equal editing performance while being only slightly slower at bulk operations. Both will be faster than any AMD CPU at lightroom.

CPU discovered, memory discovered, not a speck of trouble.... Kind of weird, actually....

One thing I thought was odd was that when Win7 was installing, it did not ask me to "format" my ssd, as it would normally with a magnetic drive.

Is that normal? I'm also using Win7 64 for the 1st time as well, migrating from Win XP Pro.

Before I continue my install, I'm just curious if I missed something. Again, this is the 1st time I've used a ssd, and I want to make sure I've done a proper install, before I add in my drivers, and add in my other two drives.... And, will I need to format them before use... I imagine so, but am not sure

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:38 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:46 pmPosts: 95

I'm running a pretty similar build (FX-8120) and only yesterday I replaced the 3,5" HDD with an SSD, mainly for noise reasons, actually. So now I have two Samsung EVOs, one 250GB as system drive and the 500GB as storage for fotos and games. All I can say is, that working in Lightroom got a huge boost (the fotos were sitting on the HDD before), swapping between fotos happens now just instantaneously (now "loading of data" any more). So while I'm sure, an i5 would speed up bulk operations, for everyday editing it has a big effect to store the fotos on an SSD. Just make sure, your fotos are on the SSD, as long as you work with them. Once a project is finished, you still can move them to the HDD.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:12 pm

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:20 amPosts: 571Location: Ottawa

oregonxfile wrote:

One thing I thought was odd was that when Win7 was installing, it did not ask me to "format" my ssd, as it would normally with a magnetic drive.

Is that normal? I'm also using Win7 64 for the 1st time as well, migrating from Win XP Pro.

This is normal. When presented with an empty drive, Win7 will auto partition it and format them. It still formatted the partitions the same as XP did, it just didn't ask when there was nothing on the drive before that might get erased.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:26 pm

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:20 amPosts: 571Location: Ottawa

vishcompany wrote:

I'm running a pretty similar build (FX-8120) and only yesterday I replaced the 3,5" HDD with an SSD, mainly for noise reasons, actually. So now I have two Samsung EVOs, one 250GB as system drive and the 500GB as storage for fotos and games. All I can say is, that working in Lightroom got a huge boost (the fotos were sitting on the HDD before), swapping between fotos happens now just instantaneously (now "loading of data" any more).

The help you see is not really the photos being on the SSD, but the lightroom DB and cache directories. Having those on an SSD helps imensely. Having the photos on an SSD helps a bit, but not much as those are mostly read sequentially.

Quote:

So while I'm sure, an i5 would speed up bulk operations, for everyday editing it has a big effect to store the fotos on an SSD. Just make sure, your fotos are on the SSD, as long as you work with them. Once a project is finished, you still can move them to the HDD.

What an i5 (or any modern Intel CPU) helps with more is editing, not bulk operations. Lighroom basically has two modes: edit/develop and bulk. When in edit/develop mode lightroom is basically single threaded and more cores don't help. It needs fast single core performance. Since edit/develop is when users interact with it, a fast single thread CPU will make lightroom "feel" much faster even if it might lag on bulk ops. When doing bulk operations the more cores the better, up to a point. More than 8 real cores doesn't help any, but that is in Xeon/Opteron territory.

Basically for lightroom performance CPUs go like this, assuming the latest gen for the CPUs (and only desktop versions, not mobile).

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:53 am

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:46 pmPosts: 95

washu wrote:

The help you see is not really the photos being on the SSD, but the lightroom DB and cache directories. Having those on an SSD helps imensely. Having the photos on an SSD helps a bit, but not much as those are mostly read sequentially.

Interesting info, thanks! So in theory, if one is running out of space for the photos, it still is an option, to move the photos to the HDD, as long as the catalogue stays on the SSD.

washu wrote:

What an i5 (or any modern Intel CPU) helps with more is editing, not bulk operations. Lighroom basically has two modes: edit/develop and bulk. When in edit/develop mode lightroom is basically single threaded and more cores don't help. It needs fast single core performance. Since edit/develop is when users interact with it, a fast single thread CPU will make lightroom "feel" much faster even if it might lag on bulk ops. When doing bulk operations the more cores the better, up to a point. More than 8 real cores doesn't help any, but that is in Xeon/Opteron territory.

Basically for lightroom performance CPUs go like this, assuming the latest gen for the CPUs (and only desktop versions, not mobile).

OK, interesting as well. All I can say for my use case: Handling Fujifilm RAW files (ca. 32MB) in Lightroom feels swift (when doing complex operations) and instantaneous, when changing only a single parameter. With bigger files (e.g. coming from a FF camera) an intel CPU would make a noticeable difference, I guess.Sigma Photo Pro is a different story. It's really slow (well, the files are bigger, too, about 50-60MB), but it is said to be sluggish even with the newest of intel goodies.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:12 pmPosts: 25

Hi all..

My build is nearly complete.

I ended up choosing an Antec P100 case. Built and running, its very quiet...

Not completely bulletproof, but well made for the money, and slightly more spacious than my previous case. It would have been a significant challenge to sneak my components into the smaller Solo 2.

I can post photos if someone is interested.....

I'm having a very odd problem with Win 7 not recognizing two of my drives, even after they did at 1st. I can see the drives in my Device Manager, but cannot access them any other way through windows. They are both blank at this point. Ive done the usual unplug/replug/change SATA socket, ad infinitum...checked and rechecked and unplugged my power supply cables to each drive.....

Started, restarted, over and over....maddening, as again, it saw them at 1st..

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:34 pm

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pmPosts: 3001Location: Guatemala

oregonxfile wrote:

I can post photos if someone is interested.....

Sure post some pics.

oregonxfile wrote:

I'm having a very odd problem with Win 7 not recognizing two of my drives, even after they did at 1st. I can see the drives in my Device Manager, but cannot access them any other way through windows. They are both blank at this point. Ive done the usual unplug/replug/change SATA socket, ad infinitum...checked and rechecked and unplugged my power supply cables to each drive.....

Go to start, then go into "computer" (but right click it), click on "manage", search for storage and diskmanagement, if you see your drives there you need to initialize them, so just right click it.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:45 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 amPosts: 5275Location: ITALY

oregonxfile wrote:

Any ideas why the drives would just "disappear" like that?

Seems really unusual

Did you do what Abula wrote? Anyway, broadly speaking, whether any drive is uninitialized and blank, then you won't be able to see it into a running Windows (I'm not talking about first installation), but either in the Device manager or the Disk manager sections of Microsoft Management Console.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:06 pm

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 amPosts: 5275Location: ITALY

oregonxfile wrote:

Can you suggest the best course of action? I just want a totally clean install on Win 7, with basically nothing left over from the previous.

When I want to wipe out any SSD and restore it at its fresh, pristine state, regardless of relevant brand and any dedicated piece of software, personally I use the secure erase feature of HDAT2. So, if you don't have it, you may download the relevant ISO and burn it on a optical disc: you can use also an USB pendrive, but as you don't seem experienced, I guess it's more straightforward to use an optical disk.

Done that, set SATA as IDE in BIOS, and boot priority from that optical drive (or USB stick) with HDAT2 on it, with no other drive phisically connected. When booted so, just connect the SSD you want to wipe, let HDAT2 re-detect it (IIRC it's just pressing the key D), select it, pick the Security Menu, set a new User password (it's mandatory as HDAT won't execute any command without it: I always use the suggested 1234 password without any other fill), and eventually secure erase (the relevant command will "appear" once you set the pass) the drive: if all end well, the drive will be as factory new with the previously set password automatically disabled (but if you don't wipe the drive after setting it, IIRC the pass would remain set, so be careful and don't forget it).

Then you might also use HDAT2 to overprovision your SSD, if you mind, but basically you have just to exit HDAT2, reboot, re-set SATA as AHCI and the correct boot priority in BIOS, in order to re-install Windows.

P.S.: eventually if you don't want to wipe out the SSD, you can just perform a new, custom installation of Windows, and then tell to the installer to manually format the entire drive (much easier, but SSD performance won't be restored to fresh factory state).

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:59 am

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:12 pmPosts: 25

I have a couple of further questions regarding secure erase vs. formatting, in regards to a SSD

I will have two SSDs in my system once I've completed my install. Both are Samsung SSDs, one an EVO 500gb, the other a Pro 256. I've played around a bit, placing files on each, along with MoBo drivers, etc.

What I want to do is a final install on Win7 Pro one one of the drives (probably the Pro 256), and then use the other SSD for other program installs, storage etc,, along with the WD 3Tb drive as internal file backup, etc.

If I do my final install on the 256, Win 7 does not ask me to "format" the drive, to wipe it clean before install. I'd like to wipe the drive, just to get rid of all of the bits and pieces that are there now. Something about having a completely clean drive, with no leftovers from previous installs, in order to maximize performance of this drive. Is it important to wipe an SSD before installs, or, will the Win7 install basically overwrite ALL previous files on the drive?

Is there a significant performance advantage, doing one thing or the other?

I'm just used to magnetic media, where, if you re-format and reinstall, getting rid of any trace of the previous files, you can see a performance increase. My Win7 installer gives me the option, at the beginning, to do a clean install, or just a re-install(saving previous files, etc). Does the clean install wipe the drive 1st, or does it just re-write the files over the top of the previous files?

And, again, is there a performance advantage, one way or the other? It just seems a shame to use a high-end SSD, and then not get the full performance benefit, only because I'm a bit careless with my install, or have not taken steps beforehand to make sure I'm preparing the drive correctly..

Apologies if this topic has been covered before somewhere else in the forum. I'm just new to SSDs, and want to make sure I get it right from the very beginning. If there is a link somewhere else in the forum, to what seems like a newbie dilemma, I'd welcome it.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:32 am

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 amPosts: 5275Location: ITALY

oregonxfile wrote:

I have a couple of further questions regarding secure erase vs. formatting, in regards to a SSD

I've already answered: only secure erase improves (actually restores) the performances of a used SSD. About formatting, I'm used to always format the destination drive, but you do need to explicitly tell to the Windows installer to format it (IIRC you should click something like "advanced option" on the lower right corner, after choosing a "Custom" install).

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:11 pm

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:12 pmPosts: 25

A further update....

I apologize for my lack of knowledge. This is the 1st time I've ever used SSDs in my system, and as such, I'm full of questions. I appreciate the patience required to answer my questions. I really do.

Ive discovered that if I try to use my Samsung Magician software to do a secure erase, it does not work. I've tried to boot from both a USB drive, and from a CD. Either way, it will not access my drives, even after unplugging (it usually indicates my drives are "frozen") and even after I follow the instructions to "unfreeze" my drives, it still does not allow me to secure erase them. I may not be super knowledgeable about SSDs, but I can follow instructions pretty well. Even as I do so, it will not allow a secure erase. I imagine I'm missing something, but I have no idea what.

I've even tried to use Parted Magic, to do the same thing. Sadly, it does not support wireless keyboards/mice, when booted from a CD (again, unless I'm totally missing something). I do not have a wired keyboard/mouse.

So, there you have it... Please don't beat me up too badly. I just still want to secure erase my primary drive, and then install Win7 on it. I want as clean of a start as I can have, and then go from there...

Again, I'm willing to acknowledge that I'm missing something, but I just don't know what that is...

I'm plenty experienced with magnetic drives, but this has me totally stumped...

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:29 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:53 amPosts: 1759Location: Sweden

Personally, I wouldn't bother with secure erasing the drive. If the Windows installation program gives you less options for partitioning the drive, maybe create an USB stick with a Linux installation (Linux Mint or something). Booting from that you can access the SSD and do anything you want with it. I would use fdisk or GParted and remove all existing partitions on it. Then reboot and run the Windows installation program.

There really isn't very much difference from a user perspective regarding SSDs, they can pretty much be treated like any other hard drive. Some rules apply, like there's no reason to defrag an SSD, it just causes wear on it.

Btw, there is a useful tool called Multiboot that lets you create an USB stick with many CD images on it. I use it to create a single USB stick with stuff that might be useful, like The Ultimate Boot CD (contains lots of useful tools), various Linux distributions etc. The Ultimate Boot CD I use quite often when I need to secure erase something (I do it on HDDs for security reasons), clone a disk, diagnose a HDD etc.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:05 am

*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:53 amPosts: 1759Location: Sweden

I've heard that there's no sure way to secure erase an SSD, since the controller moves data around. With a HDD you can do a one-pass over the drive and fill it with zeros or random data and it would then be (close to) impossible to recreate the previous data on it. With an SSD that doesn't work reliably.

But, at least with older SSD that lacks TRIM support, something like a "reset" is required to restore full speed. Maybe a secure erase works like that. Not sure it's needed on modern SSDs though. Someone with more knowledge regarding this stuff, please set us straight.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:07 am

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pmPosts: 3001Location: Guatemala

For the average user, a standard quick format, what windows does when installing windows is the right procedure, never should an ssd be slow formatted, nor defrag. Secure Erase in theory its a command that releases the information saved on the cells restoring them to the factory preset, this is not easy to do, depends a lot in the motherboards, software/bios, etc. Personally i was only able to secure erase on my supermicro in the past, there was an issue that i had with 3 different motherboards that the port was not available for sending the command, that it had to be changed, in some cases people suggested legacy ide and some other settings that i dont remember atm, but never worked on those motherboards, it did work on Supermicro though, but so much trouble for secure erasing.... that i never did it again, until now, Asus built in in their bios a secure erase function, that its so easy to do, just log into the bios go into exit menu, there is a secure erase option, click it and it takes you to another menu, when you click the ssd you want to secure erase, it reboots the pc so the sata port is on the right settings to do it, then you just accept the you will lose all data.... and in like 5 sec its done, i have secure erase my crucial m4 before moving to my server, i also did my Samsung 840 pro before moving from the Asus to MSI, and X25m before installing it on my mother laptop. This is one of the reasons i decided to keep my Asus Maximus VI Gene, and to test fans =).

Now i wouldn't recommend people to peruse the secure erase, not only its not that easy to do, although it is, just the motherboards dont play nice sometimes. But trim and garbage collection should gradually restore the ssds to a very close in terms of speeds, i would only secure erase a drive that either its going to be sold and you have sensidble info on it, or that has been used for years on another pc and you are moving to a new one, flashing firmware and so on.

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:34 am

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 amPosts: 5275Location: ITALY

oregonxfile wrote:

Ive discovered that if I try to use my Samsung Magician software to do a secure erase, it does not work. I've tried to boot from both a USB drive, and from a CD. Either way, it will not access my drives, even after unplugging (it usually indicates my drives are "frozen") and even after I follow the instructions to "unfreeze" my drives, it still does not allow me to secure erase them. I may not be super knowledgeable about SSDs, but I can follow instructions pretty well. Even as I do so, it will not allow a secure erase. I imagine I'm missing something, but I have no idea what.

I can't help, as very often I wasn't able to perform a secure erase using the dedicated tools (that's why I rely upon HDAT2).

oregonxfile wrote:

I've even tried to use Parted Magic, to do the same thing. Sadly, it does not support wireless keyboards/mice, when booted from a CD (again, unless I'm totally missing something). I do not have a wired keyboard/mouse.

IIRC it's a typical issue with Parted Magic and similar liveOS, like Acronis: often the culprit it's the 64bit kernel which won't work well with wireless keyboard (and sometimes with USB too: that's another reason to love it my PS/2 Cherry Brown and boards with PS/2 connector). If you rather to stick with Linux, you may either try to boot Parted Magic with the optional 32bit kernel, or you may use a different LiveOS, like Ubuntu, and then running in a terminal the command

"hdparm --security-erase NULL /dev/xxx" without the quotes, and where "/dev/xxx" is your SSD (you may use GParted to know which is the SSD dev name).

oregonxfile wrote:

So, there you have it... Please don't beat me up too badly. I just still want to secure erase my primary drive, and then install Win7 on it. I want as clean of a start as I can have, and then go from there...

I've already given you my recommendation, HDAT2: up to now I was always able to secure erase any SSD (OCZ, Intel, Crucial, Seagate, Samsung) with it, so I hope it will work for you too. Another alternative is HDDErase, also DOS-based.

Anyway, to avoid the frozen security status, power cycle the SSD, or connect it after booting (with HDAT2 you can do both).

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:43 pm

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:12 pmPosts: 25

OK, so I'm to the point that I dont want to mess with my drive anymore, and I just want to proceed with my fresh, reinstall of Win7 Pro.

I've done a bit of research as to the methods of Secure Erase. Ive tried a few of them, and have been unsuccessful at doing what I want to do.

For whatever reason, each program just wont see the drive, or reads it as 'frozen', (I've tried several methods of unfreezing, as indicated here and in the various program literature.) I am fairly certain I've not missed anything. I even saw a bit about the possibility of the Gigabyte AMD drivers installed preventing me from accessing the drive directly... Not sure if it was true, but even that didn't work....

Anyway, I wanted to do the secure erase in the 1st place because I did my Windows install, installed my drivers for my mobo, and a program or two. In a way, I was messing around and experimenting, so, now it's time to get serious and just do my install and be done with it.

Is there any significant downside, performance wise, to just doing my new install, installing updates, then mobo drivers, and just being ok with that setup? Do the new files overwrite to older ones? Does Win7 actually perfom a "quick format" on the drive prior to install, and does my drive suffer some kind of performance hit because of it?

I may seem to be fussing, but, I think you understand...You shell out alot of money, pick and choose your components carefully, and then build and install. I don't know how everyone else is, but I just want it to be "perfect", and not find out I skipped some silly step because I wasn't paying attention, or I just didn't know...

Does that make sense??

Again, thank you for all of your help. This is kind of a new experience for me, so I appreciate all the help and advice I've received....

Post subject: Re: Help with a new build, Win 7 Pro, w/1st time use of an S

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:49 pm

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 amPosts: 726Location: Germany

If you do a quick format of your ssd you should be fine to proceed for the new install.No secure erase needed and no performance loss or windows trouble. After all, W7 is far better than XP and really stable and robust AFAIK.

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