Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

Who, or what group, are you hypothesizing is wielding these manipulative powers to transform society?

TruthxIsxInxThexMist:

Don't use the PC nonsense as an excuse. Say what you want to say, and let the truth fall out, as the song says. No one is keeping you from saying
anything, of speaking your mind. Just state what the problem is.

Then I would say respect that religious minds are changed via that questioning.

If the religious are upset by the decline of religious followers and subsequently religious values in society, join in ranks and muster a strong
compelling argument to bring them back.

Honestly. I am strongly anti-religious yet I fully completely utterly support the notion of the religious presenting their best case. I don't want you
wiped out. I want everyone to have a say. May the best argument win.

edit on 12-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

IMO One of the reasons for the way the world is 'progressing' is because people are questioning religion, then they come to the conclusion that it's a
load of codswallop, and so lose faith. So it becomes a world where it is every man for himself, with no higher moral code and presumably no one to
answer to.

I agree with you, I am also anti-religious - with respect to the world's religions as they are. However, it is because I KNOW God exists. Logically,
it seems impossible as He has had nothing to say for the last two thousand years or so - until now! Long story short - He told me that the name of His
Son is not Jesus. I checked - and verified that fact. You can decide for yourself where that leaves Christianity...

Sir Isaac Newton believed that there would be a 'new' religion that would not resemble any of the old ones [paraphrased] - and Newton was right! The
'new' religion will unite those Jews, Christians and Muslims - as well as anyone else - who care to join. This 'new' religion will have its adherents
operating in personal contact/communication with our Creator, just as in the old days. All of His plans were designed specifically for THIS
generation. As can be seen from the Bible, things always get really BAD before He intervenes. So everyone should keep an open mind until they see the
coming upheavals in religious beliefs....

Faith is not meant to be blind - it is meant to be based on sure knowledge. Blind faith is the excuse of those who cannot produce any evidence or
results.

To get back to the point of the original post - it doesn't really matter who may be manipulating things to their own ends, because for the reasons
mentioned above, they're too late to achieve their final goals, and will have other far bigger problems to worry about.

edit on 13/2/2014 by Maigret because: To add a last sentence re the main question in the original post.

@ NoRulesAllowed....The OP is thinking that moral values are "programmed into society" by media.
While it is true that social values and "morale" are programmed, I really do NOT think that it happens through conditioning and programming by the
media..or at least not to the extent the OP believes.

for a conservative society to start accepting and celebrating what was once shunned, takes decades... Like boiling a frog slowly. The water
used to be cool... Over time it gets warmer and the frog gets used to it and so it continues to think ''warm'' is normal and acceptable. The media
is just one or two fingers on the hand that controls society. There are other aspects, but I'd say the media is the biggest influence.

I
could call myself extremely liberal and progressive.

Again, the word ''Progressive'' is a media label associated with accepting
homosexuality as normal. It is not an objective pov, rather part of the colorful language used to promote such ideas. Progressive can also mean
striving to tackle real issues such as poverty... But the media and the powers that control it don't consider poverty as an issue worthy of
resolving. The message I'm getting from so called ''progressives'' is that the gays 'human' right to parade and marry is far far more
important than the poors human right to food, shelter and clothing.

My liberal stance on homosexuality, gender equality etc. comes NOT EVEN REMOTELY from watching MTV or whatever shows on TV and I do not think that
"media" had any big influence on my beliefs whatsoever.

What I believe in and consider values comes mostly from my parents...

Like I said, media is one instrument that shapes popular opinion. A
pro-gay media broadcast to a population thats already junked religion creates fertile grounds for people to automatically accept the ideas projected
on to the public. If not you, then the media did its thing with those around you, and the society around them. A person will accept ''X'' as
normal, when everybody else around him treat ''X'' as normal, because the media established and drove home the idea that ''X'' is normal.

Who, or what group, are you hypothesizing is wielding these manipulative powers to transform society?

TruthxIsxInxThexMist:

Don't use the PC nonsense as an excuse. Say what you want to say, and let the truth fall out, as the song says. No one is keeping you from saying
anything, of speaking your mind. Just state what the problem is.

I do say what I what I feel is right but people on this site dont like it and label me a 'Bigot' .

Study upon study has demonstrated that homosexuality is a normal part of the spectrum of human sexuality.

There is no ideal past to hark back to.

The past had its problems, with a greater number of members of society being classified as second=class citizens, or not citizens at all.

The story of history is an ebb and flow of societies progressing (moving forward) and regressing (moving backward).

"Moving Forward" is obviously a development toward a society that includes all of its members in an equally productive infrastructure.

For the sake of argument here, I refute that there is an organized long-term effort on the part of any hidden nefarious group or groups to change our
social perceptions. What proof do you have otherwise, Skorpion?

Study upon study has demonstrated that homosexuality is a normal part of

There is nothing wrong with ''progressive'' as long as its used
objectively, for example the US made progress when they sent a rover to Mars.. or eradicated a disease. To use ''progressive'' to a subjective,
heavily debated issue such as accepting homosexuality is NOT objective. As for ''research'' into homosexuality, its a fairly recent thing...within
the time frame as when homosexuality started to be accepted as normal.

for the sake of argument here, I refute that there is an organized
long-term effort on the part of any hidden nefarious group or groups to change our social perceptions. What proof do you have otherwise, Skorpion?

you didn't ''refute'' anything. I've already posted about how Joe Biden, a high ranking political figure let the cat out of the bag by
admitting the mass media played a role in shaping peoplew perceptions on homosexuality. Look it up.

[Gryphon66...There's nothing to debate or accept: homosexuals [sic] are people too.

They are citizens and enjoy all the rights and protections of citizenship.

It really doesn't matter what you, or your religion, or anybody's religion believes.

Comments like these simply prove and reinforce my point that the masses can only parrot what they have been programmed to parrot...and
accept as ''normal''.

Provide some direct evidence for the group or groups you claim are acting unitarily .... what specific group or
individuals are behind the nefarious plot you believe is being enacted in the US?

You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

I don't recall pointing to any particular group. You might notice I ended my Op with a few open questions for participants. I provided
evidence that its been admitted that the mass media has shaped peoples perception.(which you shied away from addressing.) But I guess some people here
are in a hurry to declare 'victory' by claiming ''refutation''.

[Gryphon66...There's nothing to debate or accept: homosexuals [sic] are people too.

They are citizens and enjoy all the rights and protections of citizenship.

It really doesn't matter what you, or your religion, or anybody's religion believes.

Comments like these simply prove and reinforce my point that the masses can only parrot what they have been programmed to parrot...and
accept as ''normal''.

Provide some direct evidence for the group or groups you claim are acting unitarily .... what specific group or
individuals are behind the nefarious plot you believe is being enacted in the US?

You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

I don't recall pointing to any particular group. You might notice I ended my Op with a few open questions for participants. I provided
evidence that its been admitted that the mass media has shaped peoples perception.(which you shied away from addressing.) But I guess some people here
are in a hurry to declare 'victory' by claiming ''refutation''.

There are some religious beliefs and 'values' that deserve to die. They are evil wrapped in pretty bright colored paper with a big bow on top. At
the same time, there are some values that religions hold that the more 'progressive' people should admit work better for society.

Healthy balance. No extreme religious nonsense (like homosexuals are evil ... or that women should be submissive unto men .. or that there should be
religious rule of law). And no extreme progressive nonsense (like no one is harmed in an abortion .. or that all the inner city single parent
households aren't a drag on society ... or that Christian hospitals should be closed because they don't offer abortions).

Extreme religious nonsense is 'social programming' on the part of the religion.
Extreme progressive positions are also 'social programming', but on the part of certain special interest groups.

sk0rpi0n
Comments like these simply prove and reinforce my point that the masses can only parrot what they have been programmed to parrot...and accept as
''normal''.

Oh dude ... considering how you parrot that which you have been programmed to repeat by your religion, do you really want to go there? Really? You
say progressive people are parroting that which they have been programmed to parrot. And that could be true to some extent. But honestly, there is
also a lot of 'programming' and 'parroting' going on with extreme religious people. Like those calling for Sharia law ... or those calling for
'Christian law' and who say this is a Christian country. Taking an HONEST look at the behaviors of the peoples involved ... it's clearly visible
across the spectrum.

I didn't state that anyone was normal, I stated that they are citizens of the US.

I take exception to being called a parrot because you disagree with me. You have your opinion, I have the facts.

Fact: Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, Transgendered, Intersexed Americans are all American citizens and have the same rights and protections under law as
every other citizen.

I'm not ready to claim any victory. I don't have any interest in "winning" anything. I'm participating in your discussion with you. You have
repeatedly referred to a group or groups that are engineering a change in American societal perceptions by utilizing media manipulation among other
means.

I'm merely asking you to spell out what you think this group or group that are able to work in such a unified fashion are. Your thesis requires that
such a group exists, even though you're mostly using the thread to reiterate your own personal beliefs that homosexuals are degenerate, perverse,
unnatural, etc.

BTW, to refute means to disprove or challenge. I have made statements that disprove or challenge your claims. If you want to play the semantic game,
then choose one from below:

1) I rebut the claim that there is a group or groups that are working as a uniform force to undermine so-called conservative values.
2) I deny the claim that there is a group or groups that are working as a uniform force to undermine so-called conservative values.
3) I counter, controvert, dispute, put-the-lie-to, contend with the claim that there is a group or groups that are working as a uniform force to
undermine so-called conservative values.

Now, can you back up your claim or not?

I don't want to win, I want to discuss and understand where you are coming from. I disagree with what
you've said so far on a clearly factual basis, but perhaps, I haven't considered all the facts. SO, provide us with facts about this hypothesized
group or groups that we may better reason together to come to a conclusion.

Gryphon66
I take exception to being called a parrot because you disagree with me. You have your opinion, I have the facts.

Honestly, there is a whole lot of 'parroting' and 'social engineering' going on in the different religions.
The more extreme the religion, the more 'parroting' that goes on.
And the more extreme the religion, the less that honest FACTS are looked at.

I don't disagree in general about the prevalence of parroting in society. Probably 90% of what I read is merely parroted from a member's favorite
"news" sources. I don't think that behavior is limited to religions, per se, but includes political groups, special interest groups, unions, etc.
Any situation where folks "of like mind gather" tends to produce a similarity of rhetoric that can be astounding.

What I try to do, and often fail at, is to base my beliefs on the best factual evidence available. Thus, I often claim that I am neither a leftist
nor a rightist but a REALIST. I do not think I am perfect in that attempt, but I give my self a bit of prop for at least trying to sing off a
different page, sometimes.

I should probably call myself a compassionate infrastructural anarchist ... but that's kinda a lot to type out. LOL.

That's where you're wrong. I don't have faith, that is for the weak minded and for those who haven't the will to stand by themselves. It all boils
down to this, You christians are just pissed off because you're losing the strangle hold you once held on society as a lot of the populace has finally
mustered up enough courage to tell you guys to kick rocks. And a lot of the people seen to be "losing their minds all of a sudden" which is used as
one example of the backslide of society is nothing more then a fragile mind breaking after for so long trying to fit in to a society they never wanted
nor asked for and constantly being told that if they'd just believe a little harder life would be easier. It's just a damn shame it took them going
all übergeschnappt for some attention to be payed, and even then it's usually never good as their "break" is usually blamed on demon possession or
some other nonsense.

edit on 13-2-2014 by DexteramLucifer because: changed a few words

You must have faith in something.

I never forced my beliefs on anyone, and never ridiculed an atheist or those of other faiths, I may disagree with them on certain issues, but
understand and respect where they are coming from.

I don't think anyone should revel in the suffering of others, and I see just that, that is what bothers me, that a person enjoys anothers downfall.

And when I find myself fighting back, I believe it is sending the wrong message, because it was all written, and I know how the story ends, and I see
it coming into fruition, and that too is sad.

That seems like a very real and touching sentiment. I really do miss the long gone days when we could all share, discuss and debate our different
ideas and positions without every interaction becoming the equivalent of a cage-death match.

Take heart, even though you may know how the story ends, you may not know when it ends. The earth and all her children have been here a very long
time and likely will be still, whether that includes the humans will I think be mostly left up to us.

I should probably call myself a compassionate infrastructural anarchist .

Ooo, careful, Gryph....the 'acronym' would be unpleasantly burdensome. LOL
How about Anarchist With Ethics? AWEsome!!

Seriously, I know sk0rp is going to continue to ignore me altogether (surprise, surprise) but the more I read this thread, the more I keep thinking
that Fox News - which is supposedly the number One news source for the majority - is the MAIN SOURCE of "Progressive Bashing."

Four of my family members have now gone insane by watching Fox News, listening to Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.
Otherwise intelligent, educated, discerning adults - they have become rabid 'conservatives' - impossible to talk to, absolutely refusing to resource
other outlets, ranting to the degree that the rest of us worry they'll give themselves a stroke. Brainwash, rinse, and spin = Fox News. (yes, I have
the bumper sticker)...

The facts are that there are two sides to the American dilemma now - the conservatives are pissed off - royally pissed off - and spreading
absolutely divisive, inflammatory nonsense to smear 'progress' and circle their wagons with the most vicious rhetoric ever. Meanwhile there are
PLENTY of Progressive outlets which, if the terrified, glazed-eyed, misled 'affronted' Conservatives would just LOOK AT, they'd see that
Progressives are very MUCH concerned with inequality, poverty, human rights, and peace on Earth.

But they won't - it would shatter their delusions of grandeur and seething, pompous, arrogance. So sad.

And it boggles my mind that the OP pretends that Fox News (a conservative mouthpiece for the GOP and Christian Right - which both influence what is
put on their news shows) is NOT the most watched network here -- a fact which terrifies me for the future of our specie.

God save us from your loudest followers. I weep for humanity.

The real irony is that Fox is also responsible for shows like Bob's Burgers, The Family Guy, and other hilarious animated sitcoms that mock
conservatives and extremists.

The arguments I'm reading can be summarized as : ''These changes are good because its progressive!'' .... Why is it progressive? ....
''because its good.'' .... And why is it good? ''because its progressive''...who defined progressive as meaning reversing
traditional values?....''religion bad! religion bad!''. Its like the electrolytes scene from THAT movie. I'd say the media and those
powers behind it have done a solid job of not only rewriting social norms but also convincing people that its a 'good' thing.

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