Nice! I think it's official now. This is the end of long lasting 328 vs 335 dogfight. WE finally have the test results from same source.

328 8AT 0-60 5.6 seconds
335 8AT 0-60 4.6 seconds

One whole freaking second in this range is awesome! Considering MT rated 335 8AT as 4.7 seconds, I guess these numbers are very reliable. Sweet!!

Really nice numbers for the 335 and the other two are on pair with the 328. Sadly, I don't remember the last time 3 series lost a C & D comparison. First it was ranked behind the ATS and C350 by MT http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...50_comparison/ and now behind the IS350. How times have changed.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 9:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nepal

Nice! I think it's official now. This is the end of long lasting 328 vs 335 dogfight. WE finally have the test results from same source.

328 8AT 0-60 5.6 seconds
335 8AT 0-60 4.6 seconds

One whole freaking second in this range is awesome! Considering MT rated 335 8AT as 4.7 seconds, I guess these numbers are very reliable. Sweet!!

As mentioned on the other forum, it is cool that the other two cars put up 328 numbers. 4.6 for the 335, that's movin !

As to your 335 vs 328 assertion about being official, how so, where is your 5.6 coming from? The 4.6 is obviously from CD in a 19" wheel summer tired MSport. Your 5.6 is from CD with similar summer tires, or from another source?

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 9:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Really nice numbers for the 335 and the other two are on pair with the 328. Sadly, I don't remember the last time 3 series lost a C & D comparison. First it was ranked behind the ATS and C350 by MT http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...50_comparison/ and now behind the IS350. How times have changed.

The 335 I think lost against the S4 as well.

Nepal commented: April 27, 2013, 10:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

As mentioned on the other forum, it is cool that the other two cars put up 328 numbers. 4.6 for the 335, that's movin !

As to your 335 vs 328 assertion about being official, how so, where is your 5.6 coming from? The 4.6 is obviously from CD in a 19" wheel summer tired MSport. Your 5.6 is from CD with similar summer tires, or from another source?

The other mags that have tested both have had similar times, about .8-.9 between the two from 0-60. I can see the added traction of the 255's summer tires on this new MSport test giving it another tenth. Also interesting to note, the 0-60 delta typically shrinks some by the 1/4. That means the added power of the 335 REALLY benefits from the wider/stickier rubber at launch. I look forward to the first magazine test of an MSport 328 with the same tires.

It's also good to finally see MSport's trickle in now, first with Motorweek/USA today with the 328 and now CD with the 335. The better tires and brakes help the cause.

KLC commented: April 27, 2013, 10:34 am

It sounds like the 335 they tested didn't have DHP. Did I miss that in the article?

KLC commented: April 27, 2013, 10:35 am

I personally can't stand how the Lexus looks inside or out...I can't believe it got rated so highly on styling.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 10:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

It sounds like the 335 they tested didn't have DHP. Did I miss that in the article?

I know I have seen higher skid pad numbers on the F30 at .90-.91, but forget if those were 328's and or DHP cars.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 10:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

I personally can't stand how the Lexus looks inside or out...I can't believe it got rated so highly on styling.

That and the fact that the other two cars tested do not offer manuals, while the 335 does in both RWD and AWD.

KLC commented: April 27, 2013, 10:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I know I have seen higher skid pad numbers on the F30 at .90-.91, but forget if those were 328's and or DHP cars.

Yeah. It would be interesting to know if this test was done with DHP or not. From what I've heard about DHP (haven't driven one yet), it seems like that may solve some of their complaints, but if the test WAS done with DHP, then that makes me a little concerned.

Nepal commented: April 27, 2013, 10:39 am

I guess 335 lost mostly on its steering response, which is fair considering it's even worse than my humble TL IMHO.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 27, 2013, 11:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

Yeah. It would be interesting to know if this test was done with DHP or not. From what I've heard about DHP (haven't driven one yet), it seems like that may solve some of their complaints, but if the test WAS done with DHP, then that makes me a little concerned.

After reading the article and the other thread, I think it did have it.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 27, 2013, 11:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

That and the fact that the other two cars tested do not offer manuals, while the 335 does in both RWD and AWD.

Yeap. I really don't care about the complaints about the CUE with the ATS or the styling with the IS350 but no manual is an absolute deal breaker. So the IS350 is out and the only other option is the 2.0T ATS.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 11:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Yeap. I really don't care about the complaints about the CUE with the ATS or the styling with the IS350 but no manual is an absolute deal breaker. So the IS350 is out and the only other option is the 2.0T ATS.

Every first person account of the ATS manual is that its a huge let down. I am hoping for more out of the ATSV which I will cross shop as a replacement for my car.

Geekenstein commented: April 27, 2013, 12:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Every first person account of the ATS manual is that its a huge let down. I am hoping for more out of the ATSV which I will cross shop as a replacement for my car.

I test drove an ATS manual. Really didn't feel that different from my 328. Might have liked the pedals a little better even.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 12:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geekenstein

I test drove an ATS manual. Really didn't feel that different from my 328. Might have liked the pedals a little better even.

Heard no complaints about pedals, more so gearing and shift quality.

Jugghaid commented: April 27, 2013, 12:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geekenstein

I test drove an ATS manual. Really didn't feel that different from my 328. Might have liked the pedals a little better even.

I test drove one too. It just didn't seem as nimble as the 328. It felt "heavier" in the corners and just flat out less fun to drive. I know a lot of it is completely subjective, but I still preferred the 328.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 27, 2013, 12:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Every first person account of the ATS manual is that its a huge let down. I am hoping for more out of the ATSV which I will cross shop as a replacement for my car.

I can't comment on the ATS manual from experience but there are few ex M power and 335 owners on Cadillac forums. I remember reading a thread about it and to my surprise a lot the ex BMW drivers liked the manual in the ATS. It seems that it is less "sloppy" than the one in the E90 but a little too notchy (which I personally like). It was also revised from the pre-production models that received negative reviews.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 12:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

I can't comment on the ATS manual from experience but there are few ex M power and 335 owners on Cadillac forums. I remember reading a thread about it and to my surprise a lot the ex BMW drivers liked the manual in the ATS. It seems that it is less "sloppy" than the one in the E90 but a little too notchy (which I personally like). It was also revised from the pre-production models that received negative reviews.

My e36/7 is a bit notchy but otherwise a bit snickety which I like. I prefer a bit notchy to a bit vague. The 328 is a bit ropey compared to my other car.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 27, 2013, 12:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

My e36/7 is a bit notchy but otherwise a bit snickety which I like. I prefer a bit notchy to a bit vague. The 328 is a bit ropey compared to my other car.

I lived with a very sloppy manual in my VR6 and I did not think it was that bad, so I am hoping I will like the one in the ATS. I think BMW manuals are good but the best ones I drove were in Honda products (ex. 2007 TSX and 2008 TL-S). They were pretty much razor sharp and make VW manuals seem like they are made out of rubber.

HokieXDriver commented: April 27, 2013, 1:09 pm

Has anyone here replaced the stock performance summer runflats with real tires, e.g., Michelin PSS? If so, how does that change steering response? In my 535, the steering feel improved enormously when I put PSS on. I'm planning to do the same with my 335 M Sport.

If the steering feel does improve, then I'd have to say BMW is shooting itself in the wheel with these runflats. They're going to keep getting these numb steering reviews.

KLC commented: April 27, 2013, 1:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokieXDriver

Has anyone here replaced the stock performance summer runflats with real tires, e.g., Michelin PSS? If so, how does that change steering response? In my 535, the steering feel improved enormously when I put PSS on. I'm planning to do the same with my 335 M Sport.

If the steering feel does improve, then I'd have to say BMW is shooting itself in the wheel with these runflats. They're going to keep getting these numb steering reviews.

Jamesviggen has PSSs on his 328 m sport. Also very lightweight wheels.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 2:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokieXDriver

Has anyone here replaced the stock performance summer runflats with real tires, e.g., Michelin PSS? If so, how does that change steering response? In my 535, the steering feel improved enormously when I put PSS on. I'm planning to do the same with my 335 M Sport.

If the steering feel does improve, then I'd have to say BMW is shooting itself in the wheel with these runflats. They're going to keep getting these numb steering reviews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

Jamesviggen has PSSs on his 328 m sport. Also very lightweight wheels.

The PSS and lighter wheels help the steering feel and feedback a bit for sure. I am buying H&R Sport springs this week, that has been noted to have a positive affect on the steering as well.

The Nerd commented: April 27, 2013, 7:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The PSS and lighter wheels help the steering feel and feedback a bit for sure. I am buying H&R Sport springs this week, that has been noted to have a positive affect on the steering as well.

I was actually thinking of H&R springs as well because I don't like the front wheel gap on my Sportline (even on my RWD). I am a total noob with this....could I just get the springs for the front wheels? Or...is that really unorthodox? Also, would those springs affect my warranty? Finally, I can see the springs are listed online for around $260....is that for a set of four? Only two? How many hours of labor for the install?

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Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 7:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Nerd

I was actually thinking of H&R springs as well because I don't like the front wheel gap on my Sportline (even on my RWD). I am a total noob with this....could I just get the springs for the front wheels? Or...is that really unorthodox? Also, would those springs affect my warranty? Finally, I can see the springs are listed online for around $260....is that for a set of four? Only two? How many hours of labor for the install?

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

Just fronts would not be a good idea(they come only as a set of 4).

The gap is nice front to back with the Sports springs.

I have found a retailer willing to do $245 shipped which is good as most places want $235-260+$35 shipping.

Not sure on install, a good shop typically charges about $350 including alignment on past cars.

The Nerd commented: April 27, 2013, 8:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Just fronts would not be a good idea(they come only as a set of 4).

The gap is nice front to back with the Sports springs.

I have found a retailer willing to do $245 shipped which is good as most places want $235-260+$35 shipping.

Not sure on install, a good shop typically charges about $350 including alignment on past cars.

^Thanks....would it affect the warranty? Much firmer ride? (I don't have DHP).

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HokieXDriver commented: April 27, 2013, 8:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Nerd

^Thanks....would it affect the warranty? Much firmer ride? (I don't have DHP).

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

It will affect the warranty, but by law only on the springs themselves or any damage they can prove was caused by your replacement springs. They can't say they won't fix a defect in your seats because your springs were replaced.

LarryboysUDM commented: April 27, 2013, 9:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

Yeah. It would be interesting to know if this test was done with DHP or not. From what I've heard about DHP (haven't driven one yet), it seems like that may solve some of their complaints, but if the test WAS done with DHP, then that makes me a little concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

After reading the article and the other thread, I think it did have it.

The article said "Even with the optional suspension, body control falters."...what else could that be aside from DHP?

With steering comments such as "comparatively lazy", "light and vague on center", and "lifeless electrically assisted steering", I don't think BMW will sit on that for too long.

With only 1 point separating 1st and 2nd, that is not a convincing win. I would say CD is probably doing what it can to make BMW do something about non-responsive electric steering.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 27, 2013, 9:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Nerd

^Thanks....would it affect the warranty? Much firmer ride? (I don't have DHP).

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

People comment on having no or minimal impact to ride quality. They make a more aggressive version, the Sports are a modest drop compared to the Super Sports.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: April 27, 2013, 10:32 pm

The new IS is actually ok looking.

SamS commented: April 28, 2013, 5:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM

The article said "Even with the optional suspension, body control falters."...what else could that be aside from DHP?

With steering comments such as "comparatively lazy", "light and vague on center", and "lifeless electrically assisted steering", I don't think BMW will sit on that for too long.

With only 1 point separating 1st and 2nd, that is not a convincing win. I would say CD is probably doing what it can to make BMW do something about non-responsive electric steering.

M-sport suspension.

KLC commented: April 28, 2013, 7:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

M-sport suspension.

That's what I thought. DHP everywhere else has gotten great ride quality and handling reviews.

KLC commented: April 28, 2013, 7:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The new IS is actually ok looking.

It looks like its trying to eat you.

Bimmer dreamer commented: April 28, 2013, 7:46 am

Before I purchased my 335i, I had seriously considered the ATS 3.6 Premium. Test drove both cars and even brought the ATS home to my wife. Before I pulled the trigger brought the ATS up to my BMW dealer and put both cars side by side. Then took the ATS on the same test drive that I went on with my BMW dealer took me on and drove the ATS just as hard. The ATS transmission almost seized doing the circuit. BMW won looks and performance with me.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 28, 2013, 8:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bimmer dreamer

Before I purchased my 335i, I had seriously considered the ATS 3.6 Premium. Test drove both cars and even brought the ATS home to my wife. Before I pulled the trigger brought the ATS up to my BMW dealer and put both cars side by side. Then took the ATS on the same test drive that I went on with my BMW dealer took me on and drove the ATS just as hard. The ATS transmission almost seized doing the circuit. BMW won looks and performance with me.

I am pretty sure it is the same auto transmission as the one in the E90 3 series. Very similar to the 6 speed ZF in the E90 335 but not as quick as 8 speed ZF in the F30. It received very good reviews in most comparisons. I am not sure why C & D did not like it as much during this one. I drove a E90 335 and 328 back to back and I though the two transmission were nearly identical in behavior. If anything the GM unit shifted a little quicker.

HokieXDriver commented: April 28, 2013, 9:55 am

I'm never sure how much value there is in car reviews, and I'm not saying this only because the BMW came in 2nd. Well, I don't think I am anyway.

My point is, look how much difference in opinion there is just on this forum. Everyone has a different set of criteria and a different opinion. If I happened to be an auto journalist and wrote a review in a magazine, why would my opinion suddenly be more important than it is here on the forum? Because it's in print?

This is why I almost prefer the Consumer Reports "reviews". They state objective facts like reliability, which I have no other way of knowing. Then I go sit my butt in several cars and make my own mind up on the subjective issues like steering feel, "excitement", or whatever.

Saintor commented: April 28, 2013, 10:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Really nice numbers for the 335.

Yet the 335i got the worst rating for engine flexibility at 3/5! Unexplainable.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 28, 2013, 10:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Yet the 335i got the worst rating for engine flexibility at 3/5! Unexplainable.

I noticed that as well, however C & D is very pro BMW in their reviews.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 28, 2013, 10:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokieXDriver

I'm never sure how much value there is in car reviews, and I'm not saying this only because the BMW came in 2nd. Well, I don't think I am anyway.

My point is, look how much difference in opinion there is just on this forum. Everyone has a different set of criteria and a different opinion. If I happened to be an auto journalist and wrote a review in a magazine, why would my opinion suddenly be more important than it is here on the forum? Because it's in print?

This is why I almost prefer the Consumer Reports "reviews". They state objective facts like reliability, which I have no other way of knowing. Then I go sit my butt in several cars and make my own mind up on the subjective issues like steering feel, "excitement", or whatever.

I somewhat disagree, specifically when it comes to C & D. Every time I drive a car (whether it is a Civic or a Tundra) and come across a C & D review of it, most of the time I feel exactly the same as the review. On the other hand I really don't get some of the MT reviews.

krash commented: April 28, 2013, 9:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

Yeah. It would be interesting to know if this test was done with DHP or not. From what I've heard about DHP (haven't driven one yet), it seems like that may solve some of their complaints, but if the test WAS done with DHP, then that makes me a little concerned.

Yeah, I have DHP which comes with variable steering. I have yet seen any real comparisons between the standard electrical assist steering and the variable steering that comes with DHP.

Every car I test drove had the standard steering, but I honestly didn't drive them enough to get a real good feel.

I really like the steering in my car, but since it has DHP, I doubt my steering experience is the same as those without DHP.

krash commented: April 28, 2013, 9:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bimmer dreamer

Before I purchased my 335i, I had seriously considered the ATS 3.6 Premium. Test drove both cars and even brought the ATS home to my wife. Before I pulled the trigger brought the ATS up to my BMW dealer and put both cars side by side. Then took the ATS on the same test drive that I went on with my BMW dealer took me on and drove the ATS just as hard. The ATS transmission almost seized doing the circuit. BMW won looks and performance with me.

Yes. All I know is that I'm thrilled I got a 335. I'm sorry, but the ATS or Lexus are not for me. No regrets at all.

slave2gravity commented: April 28, 2013, 11:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokieXDriver

This is why I almost prefer the Consumer Reports "reviews". They state objective facts like reliability, which I have no other way of knowing. Then I go sit my butt in several cars and make my own mind up on the subjective issues like steering feel, "excitement", or whatever.

Yeah, it's interesting how quickly favor and opinion changes on cars. It's best to keep in mind that it's all relative. I got a little down-hearted reading C&Ds review of the M Sports handling when in a previous article they were quite pleased with the 335 Sports handling (minus the steering). I had to remind myself C&Ds comments were in the context of this 3 car comparo.

I was listening to the WSJ This Morning podcast this morning (the Saturday edition) and Dan Niel was reviewing the 2014 Porsche Cayman S when he made a statement that the Porsche is not a fast car by European standards, but is by American standards. He then proceeded to share a story about driving the Cayman in Germany at 130mph on the Autobahn and having 911 Turbos and Audi S7s blow past him. My thought was, "well yeah, you're doing 130mph, but the Cayman S is good for more like 175mph. Try pushing the pedal a litle further." To use his story as the basis of a statement that a car like the Cayman isn't fast is just asinine... And yet, like a fiend I check all those sites on a daily basis to get my fix.

Kayani_1 commented: April 29, 2013, 12:09 am

It is sad that BMW once known for its steering feel and feed back on 3 series is not among the best thanks to crappy electric steering wheel. I think BMW engineers need to put the life back into the life less steering wheels.

As for 328i vs 335i anyone that thinks both are on par with regards to straight line performance needs to get their brain checked or their might be a cheaper less expensive way. I would suggest you line up your 328i vs my 335i or any other 335i and all you will see is tail lights all day.

hans007 commented: April 29, 2013, 2:25 am

This is why no one takes car and driver seriously .

How did the Lexus win? They said the same type of stuff when the first is350 came out which other mags have said actually have a more engaging drive. Not to mention the BMW destroyed it in almost every measure of performance

I've driven the old is350 and its got nothing on a BMW. I actually have a friend who was going to buy an is350 and went to a Lexus drive event where they had an e90 330i and it convinced him to buy an 07 335i instead. ...

And all this bashing the f30 steering? I don't get it. Magazines make it sound like its terrible but its definitely not.

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ChrisF01 commented: April 29, 2013, 4:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by hans007

This is why no one takes car and driver seriously .

How did the Lexus win? They said the same type of stuff when the first is350 came out which other mags have said actually have a more engaging drive. Not to mention the BMW destroyed it in almost every measure of performance

I've driven the old is350 and its got nothing on a BMW. I actually have a friend who was going to buy an is350 and went to a Lexus drive event where they had an e90 330i and it convinced him to buy an 07 335i instead. ...

And all this bashing the f30 steering? I don't get it. Magazines make it sound like its terrible but its definitely not.

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When the design is the deciding factor between the Toyota and the BMW, it shows that C&D is a joke. BMW supposedly lost by 2 points (one interior, one exterior) that cost it the top spot. Thats laughable, because thats purely subjective, and shouldn't be included, also rebates were judged?????

I like the look of the BMW, Cadillac then the Lexus in that order. Some might be inverse or all mixed up. Thats like saying the Cadillac is the best because its not white like the BMW and the Lexus, well thats up to the buyer. Overall the BMW is the better of the 3, if you take into account their skewed aesthetic appreciation - or lack there of, then give it to the Toyota.

gooer commented: April 29, 2013, 4:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by krash

Yes. All I know is that I'm thrilled I got a 335. I'm sorry, but the ATS or Lexus are not for me. No regrets at all.

Same. This review doesn't change anything for me. Although 4.6 seconds to 60 is amazing!

hans007 commented: April 29, 2013, 7:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisF02

When the design is the deciding factor between the Toyota and the BMW, it shows that C&D is a joke. BMW supposedly lost by 2 points (one interior, one exterior) that cost it the top spot. Thats laughable, because thats purely subjective, and shouldn't be included, also rebates were judged?????

I like the look of the BMW, Cadillac then the Lexus in that order. Some might be inverse or all mixed up. Thats like saying the Cadillac is the best because its not white like the BMW and the Lexus, well thats up to the buyer. Overall the BMW is the better of the 3, if you take into account their skewed aesthetic appreciation - or lack there of, then give it to the Toyota.

Car and driver has randomly added points for things like 'gotta have it' factor on other comparos. They always just skew it to make whatever they want the top choice. They are easily the worst mag

But for the love of God 0-60 is just about the worst measurement since it can be manipulated so easily (one foot roll-out, for example).

...

I'm impressed by the 0-100 and 0-130 numbers for the n55 engine in that comparison. It speaks to how HARD this engine pulls up top.

dtc100 commented: April 29, 2013, 8:57 am

There is no question mags manipulate rating numbers to rank cars they wish to be ranked. But then it is not unlike how people shop for their cars. A lot of it are opinion based, not on hard facts.

Every car gets its turn, I am just surprised no one here accused the mags being bought out. It isn't impossible, advertising dollars do get in the way.

But more likely than not, one good way to sell the mag is to generate publicity. Controversies, and breaking a trend, generate publicity. The bottom line is, the cars today are so close in their objective stats, it is easy to forget, all it really matters is one's subjective view.

Mags aren't different, they are written by humans.

HokieXDriver commented: April 29, 2013, 9:44 am

You only have to look at the review that the NY Times did of the Tesla S to know that auto journalists are not free of prejudices.

JoeFromPA commented: April 29, 2013, 10:01 am

I think the f30 is deserving of it's steering knocks. Perhaps fiddling with it enough would cure my prejudice, but a test drive of a sport line (with sport+ mode on) 328i led me to feel the steering was like a hyperactive dialed in computer game. I referred to it at the time as "go kart mode".

But this isn't the first time BMW messed up the 3-series steering. They did it, IIRC, in 2000 and public outcry led them to fix it.

You can have good steering with electric systems. Enough manufacturers have proven that now.

Chris90 commented: April 29, 2013, 10:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM

The article said "Even with the optional suspension, body control falters."...what else could that be aside from DHP?

With steering comments such as "comparatively lazy", "light and vague on center", and "lifeless electrically assisted steering", I don't think BMW will sit on that for too long.

With only 1 point separating 1st and 2nd, that is not a convincing win. I would say CD is probably doing what it can to make BMW do something about non-responsive electric steering.

Yes, we've seen this before, they are sending a shot off the bow of BMW, in hopes they will fix the steering like in 2001.

How otherwise do you explain the Lexus and M Sport both getting a 9 for styling. Stevie Wonder the deciding vote?

Chris90 commented: April 29, 2013, 10:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

You can have good steering with electric systems. Enough manufacturers have proven that now.

But i've noticed reviews of the new 911, some reviews say it has great steering feel, others say it has none.

A coupe reviews of the M135i have said it has improved steering feel over the F30, hopefully that's true, it means BMW is working on the tuning.

JoeFromPA commented: April 29, 2013, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

But i've noticed reviews of the new 911, some reviews say it has great steering feel, others say it has none.

A coupe reviews of the M135i have said it has improved steering feel over the F30, hopefully that's true, it means BMW is working on the tuning.

The new 911 is almost numb compared to a 1980 911 sc.

But compared to a 997 it's pretty good

I think it depends upon the reviewer's recent background.

dtc100 commented: April 29, 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

The new 911 is almost numb compared to a 1980 911 sc.

But compared to a 997 it's pretty good

I think it depends upon the reviewer's recent background.

I thought the one thing 997 has on the 991 is the steering feel because it is still hydraulic, the new 911 (991) is electric?

I feel the E90 steering every day how it connects to the pavement and the change of surface conditions. Don't know if electric steering will ever be able to duplicate the feel.

HokieXDriver commented: April 29, 2013, 1:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I feel the E90 steering every day how it connects to the pavement and the change of surface conditions. Don't know if electric steering will ever be able to duplicate the feel.

Everyone said exactly the same thing when cars went from no power steering to hydraulic power steering. The Circle of Life, I guess.

TMQ commented: April 29, 2013, 1:51 pm

Of all the car magazines in the U.S., IMO Car and Driver is the best one. Some people can get pretty defensive, but the fact is that the newer BMWs have lousy steering and handling. These are the things they need to improve.

Chris90 commented: April 29, 2013, 1:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

The new 911 is almost numb compared to a 1980 911 sc.

But compared to a 997 it's pretty good

I think it depends upon the reviewer's recent background.

That's weird, cause all the reviews say the 997 was better.

I can imagine a 1980 would have enormous steering feel. Cars started losing steering and road feel long before they invented electric steering. Even my ZHP feels a bit numb compared to the E36 - often the first warning of tire slip is when I feel the car rotating.

everettpa1 commented: April 29, 2013, 2:23 pm

BMW has purposefully evolved the 3 series into a bigger softer car with more appeal to new buyers who prize size over performance. BMW is smart enough to know the trade offs. My problem is BMW has jumped the shark to get on the green bandwagon. The whole efficient dynamics crap topped off with the ASS (perfect name for this BTW) is what drives decisions to go electric versus hydraulic on the steering front. Everybody is doing it I know. BMW is new at the green game and getting these fuel saving systems to work well takes years. Another example is the AH3 with its unsophisticated hand off between the gas and electric bits.

We are living in a CAFE world in which mainstream production cars will favor green over performance all the time. We are going to lose a lot of the things we have loved over the years like N/A V8s or even turbo V8s. These options will now be relegated to the exotics like AMG and M cars and will be terriblyexpensive. Thanks Obama.

Finally, it is clear that C/D has decided to rain on BMW's parade. No way the ATS is a better car than the 328. No friggin way. And now the Lexus IS350 is better than 335i. Again, no way, unless C/D wanted this outcome from the start and just rigged the numbers to get there. I think Lexus is making huge strides aside from styling but with that anemic 3.5L V6 under hood there is no GD way it is better than the 335i. Lexus is on my list for later when they get a proper engine in the GS350 F Sport and clean up the lines a bit, but until then, this is fantasy island if these cars are better than the 335i. Da plane, da plane!

Chris90 commented: April 29, 2013, 3:08 pm

The 8 speed only comes on the rear-drive IS350 F Sport, which nobody will buy. No 8 speed for the IS250 or the AWD IS250 or IS350. One more example of the test being rigged.

MonkeyCMonkeyDo commented: April 29, 2013, 3:22 pm

If you look at the points individually BMW wins. The only reason it "loses" is because of the completely subjective "fun to drive" category where they give the Lexus just enough points to overtake BMW. That is a category that is completely subjective as everyones definition is different. Comparing Ergonomics, fit and finish and performance can be quantified. They keep that final category so they can sway the vote the way they want.

At the end of the day it makes great points about all three cars but you need to actually review the individual category results to get a more quantifiable answer.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 29, 2013, 5:05 pm

You gotta love the excuses and people bashing C & D. Nobody had a problem with C & D reviewes when the pervious generations of the 3 series were often NOT the fastest but still came in the first place. Perfect example: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests. The 330i here was behind the IS350 in acceleration but still won. I bet nobody had a problem with C & D then

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 29, 2013, 5:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

You gotta love the excuses and people bashing C & D. Nobody had a problem with C & D reviewes when the pervious generations of the 3 series were often NOT the fastest but still came in the first place. Perfect example: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests. The 330i here was behind the IS350 in acceleration but still won. I bet nobody had a problem with C & D then

A couple of my replies from the same topic on the other forum apply here:

Some seem to think that their E90's from years ago would step up to the latest competition and some how come out unscathed. I think that is a bit of a fantasy.

True, an '11 E90 335 might have had the slightly better steering feel, a bit less body roll, but then it would have faired worse in terms of interior comfort/accommodations and ride quality.

The competition is better. It's better than it was 5 years ago when the E90 was everyone's darling.

Also:

I have not driven the IS. It could out handle and out steer the f30, I mean people have been gunning for the 3 just as they softened it.

But the styling of the IS, ask 100 people and see the results. The ding for the 335 engine flexibility is also silly, might be more of a transmission thing.

So, I am no fanboi, I am fine with a particular car I drive not being chosen in a head to head. But fact is, SOME of the scoring in this test is downright wonky.

captainaudio commented: April 29, 2013, 5:27 pm

What seems obvious is that the F30 is an improvement over the E90 in many respects, and perhaps a better overall car, but somewhat of a step backward in several areas that are important to a lot of people.

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 29, 2013, 5:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

What seems obvious is that the F30 is an improvement over the E90 in many respects, and perhaps a better overall car, but somewhat of a step backward in several areas that are important to a lot of people.

CA

Pretty much.

I liken it to a recipe.

You have 20 ingredients on the counter. The F30 has more of some, and those ingredients are important to a lot of people as defining the flavor. But it has less of others.

The steering and body roll are the ingredients for me, that I wish were amped up a bit. Granted, they are being fixed by myself via parts selection, but magazines and 99.9% of buyers do not know or care to do such a thing.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 29, 2013, 5:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

A couple of my replies from the same topic on the other forum apply here:

Some seem to think that their E90's from years ago would step up to the latest competition and some how come out unscathed. I think that is a bit of a fantasy.

True, an '11 E90 335 might have had the slightly better steering feel, a bit less body roll, but then it would have faired worse in terms of interior comfort/accommodations and ride quality.

The competition is better. It's better than it was 5 years ago when the E90 was everyone's darling.

Also:

I have not driven the IS. It could out handle and out steer the f30, I mean people have been gunning for the 3 just as they softened it.

But the styling of the IS, ask 100 people and see the results. The ding for the 335 engine flexibility is also silly, might be more of a transmission thing.

So, I am no fanboi, I am fine with a particular car I drive not being chosen in a head to head. But fact is, SOME of the scoring in this test is downright wonky.

I agree with you to a certain extent but C & D seems to think otherwise:
"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)"

I agree with you to a certain extent but C & D seems to think otherwise:
"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great-while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We're convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)"

Great, but that's hyperbole. They also made those statements after being blown away by the ATS, do we know what they would say about the E90 after driving an ATS back to back? Nope. And that's the point.

They do not have the competing cars to test with them when they say that.

The F30 lost to the IS over handling/steering by a small margin. The E90 would then get points back for those and lose all over again for ride quality, interior space/trunk space, tech.

suneil commented: April 29, 2013, 5:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

I agree with you to a certain extent but C & D seems to think otherwise:
"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.)"

Great, but that's hyperbole. They also made those statements after being blown away by the ATS, do we know what they would say about the E90 after driving an ATS back to back? Nope. And that's the point.

They do not have the competing cars to test with them when they say that.

The F30 lost to the IS over handling/steering by a small margin. The E90 would then get points back for those and lose all over again for ride quality, interior space/trunk space, tech.

They said it, not me. I understand your point. A lot of these reviews are very subjective. I personally like C & D and I like the ATS the most, however unlike MT they seemed to like the other two more.

Mark K commented: April 29, 2013, 5:53 pm

Guys, please take this as constructive perplexity (like, you know, a honest WTF?!) and some constructive criticism - I'm not trolling.

I would have expected to read about some yesteryear Camaro smoking everything in 0-60 and lacking in "Chassis" and "Fun to drive" (for crying out loud!) department. Not the BMW. Never. Especially the 3 series.

Yes, car magazines don't matter. Yes, car magazines are in business of selling copies, not doing car reviews and comparos. Yes, car magazines have an agenda. Yes, car magazines are farthest thing from being impartial and a source of good information about cars ... We done yet?

Good, then why in the world is the car magazine that was accused of being on BMW payroll more than any other AND whose staff drives 3 series more than any other car as a personal car ... why are they doing this then?

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 29, 2013, 6:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

They said it, not me. I understand your point. A lot of these reviews are very subjective. I personally like C & D and I like the ATS the most, however unlike MT they seemed to like the other two more.

I know they said it, and it's a bit silly as it's a bold statement to make considering they did not have an E90 there in the test, they had an ATS.

It's going around and around, this thread is about the 335 F30 vs ATS 3.6 vs the Is350. I am fine with the F30 losing, the scoring is suspect a bit. At the same time, it leaves the opportunity for some to chime in and make it out that the benchmark of years ago, the E90 would waltz right in and slay NEW '13 competition, and I am sorry, but that is fantasy. The E90 would have been knocked for something else instead.

I have never owned a car that was always the critics number 1 choice, from my Beretta, Saab 9000 Turbo, 300ZX(well, that car was pretty much LOVED by the pro's-but I had the NA), Viggen, Maxima SE(that was pretty well reviewed too), Jetta, CC, Viggen, E36/7 and now F30. I don't need that re-assurance basically.

dtc100 commented: April 29, 2013, 10:07 pm

I think over time people will get used to the look of the new IS350 F sport, if not, Toyota apparently has a plan to speed up that process. Once people see this new 2014 4Runner all over the places, the IS350 F sport will look very modest in comparison:

Now notice I have not injected my personal opinion of the new styles, whether I like them or not is irrelevant. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Geekenstein commented: April 29, 2013, 10:12 pm

Whoa. That is profoundly ugly.

Hockeypuck commented: April 29, 2013, 10:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I think over time people will get used to the look of the new IS350 F sport, if not, Toyota apparently has a plan to speed up that process. Once people see this new 2014 4Runner all over the places, the IS350 F sport will look very modest in comparison:

Now notice I have not injected my personal opinion of the new styles, whether I like them or not is irrelevant. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think Nissan and Honda are anxiously awaiting that vehicle. Will make selling a Pathfinder or Pilot a piece of cake.

justinnum1 commented: April 29, 2013, 10:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeypuck

I think Nissan and Honda are anxiously awaiting that vehicle. Will make selling a Pathfinder or Pilot a piece of cake.

Nice to see another weston user. whcc here.

Jamesonsviggen commented: April 29, 2013, 10:46 pm

You sure that is not Optimus Prime from Micheal Bay's 10th Transformers sequel?

JT///M3 commented: April 29, 2013, 11:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You sure that is not Optimus Prime from Micheal Bay's 10th Transformers sequel?

That was my exact thoughts. Looks like a transformer! And like SH!T too!

captainaudio commented: April 29, 2013, 11:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by suneil

I will annihilate any PPK E90 335i on the track. Yes I'm that confident that C&D is THAT full of ****...weight wise alone, favors the F30.

I think that would be extremely dependent on who is driving the E90 335i.

CA

tankton commented: April 30, 2013, 12:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeypuck

I think Nissan and Honda are anxiously awaiting that vehicle. Will make selling a Pathfinder or Pilot a piece of cake.

Eh? Toyota has at least 3 other vehicles in that price range, all waiting to compete with the 4runner - which, in itself, is about to become a CAFE liability.

Small wonder they want it dead.

unit commented: April 30, 2013, 1:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I know they said it, and it's a bit silly as it's a bold statement to make considering they did not have an E90 there in the test, they had an ATS.

It's going around and around, this thread is about the 335 F30 vs ATS 3.6 vs the Is350. I am fine with the F30 losing, the scoring is suspect a bit. At the same time, it leaves the opportunity for some to chime in and make it out that the benchmark of years ago, the E90 would waltz right in and slay NEW '13 competition, and I am sorry, but that is fantasy. The E90 would have been knocked for something else instead.

Road and Track (May 2013) seems to feel the same way as Car and Driver:

"But there's a bigger point here. The 1-series is the last car that BMW engineered before the Germans, as a car-making culture, fell out of love with driving. The 3-series, which used to make so much more sense than the 1, is now a perfectly nice car that barely registers on the fun-to-drive scale. Like most new German cars, it focuses too much on electronics and the eventuality of a driverless future. It errs toward isolation where BMWs have traditionally favored refinement and engagement. It offers more in the way of electronic cockpit gadgets than feedback. Even the 135is's replacement, the European-market M135i, has the nerve to wear an M badge but with zero additional M chops. It's the next generation of the car you see here, in hatchback form, with a version of the F30's numb electric steering and no limited-slip differential. Worse, like the current M5, its cockpit is so isolated and quiet that you can't really hear the engine."

After driving the F10 and F30, I feel like they have lost the BMW magic that used to make their cars so great. They might be nice luxury cars, but I just can't seem to get excited about the driving properties of any of the F models.

HokieXDriver commented: April 30, 2013, 8:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by unit

Road and Track (May 2013) seems to feel the same way as Car and Driver:

"But there's a bigger point here. The 1-series is the last car that BMW engineered before the Germans, as a car-making culture, fell out of love with driving."

Ironically, the same can be said of Road & Track's April 2013 edition. It was the last edition before the magazine fell out of love with driving.

Chris90 commented: April 30, 2013, 3:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

You gotta love the excuses and people bashing C & D. Nobody had a problem with C & D reviewes when the pervious generations of the 3 series were often NOT the fastest but still came in the first place. Perfect example: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests. The 330i here was behind the IS350 in acceleration but still won. I bet nobody had a problem with C & D then

The Lexus had the same engine in 2006 as the new 2014.

And this is why the BMW won back then:

Quote:

And yet the IS350 doesn't become an extension of your legs and forearms, as the BMW or even the G35 does. Editors wrote of a twitchy, overly zealous response to steering inputs by an overdamped suspension that was annoyingly busy on the freeway. Scrub data through the electrically assisted steering rack get muted, and the weighting seems typically Lexus light and artificial. Meanwhile, the tires lack the bite to control understeer, contributing to a last-place lane-change speed.

I'm all for criticizing BMW, but no way in hell I believe that the IS350 is more fun.

TMQ commented: April 30, 2013, 4:15 pm

The general trend is that BMW is losing it. I like BMWs and have been a BMWCCA member for 6 years, but the trend is worrisome. Drinking their coolaid is not worth it.

BMW will probably make more money by appealing to the masses. The ultimate driving machine it is not.

HokieXDriver commented: April 30, 2013, 4:55 pm

I think those of us who want pure driving experience will eventually have to migrate to M. Porsche is fine, but I need a daily driver, and the Panamera is too expensive for me.

LegendsNeverDie commented: April 30, 2013, 5:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

The Lexus had the same engine in 2006 as the new 2014.

And this is why the BMW won back then:

I'm all for criticizing BMW, but no way in hell I believe that the IS350 is more fun.

Nothing wrong with that engine. The 2013 MY 335 makes less power than it did in 2007. The article proves my point. Back then the 3 was more fun to drive but slower. I bet nobody complained. Now the Lexus is more fun but slower and people get upset.

krash commented: April 30, 2013, 9:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo

If you look at the points individually BMW wins. The only reason it "loses" is because of the completely subjective "fun to drive" category where they give the Lexus just enough points to overtake BMW. That is a category that is completely subjective as everyones definition is different. Comparing Ergonomics, fit and finish and performance can be quantified. They keep that final category so they can sway the vote the way they want.

At the end of the day it makes great points about all three cars but you need to actually review the individual category results to get a more quantifiable answer.

Absolutely, and I for one don't see how driving around in that ugly Lexus could be any fun...

dtc100 commented: May 1, 2013, 2:36 am

The new IS350 F Sport has to be substantially more fun to drive than the F30 335i for me to accept the C&D report. I am not holding my breath it will happen, but then I am reminded my test drive of the ATS 3.6L, when it turned out noticeably more fun to drive than the F30, all other factors quickly became insignificant.

Chris90 commented: May 1, 2013, 7:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The new IS350 F Sport has to be substantially more fun to drive than the F30 335i for me to accept the C&D report.

Highly doubtful.

Autoguide's review, says the 335 is more athletic and more fun, but they liked it a lot.

Driven back-to-back with the current IS, the 2014 proved to be the more stable of the two. It's likely that overall grip has increased, but some of the IS's playfulness and character have been sacrificed to the holy trinity of NVH. It's a small difference and one that likely can be chalked up to the heavier GS-based architecture-the IS is up to 176 pounds heavier.

martyl commented: May 1, 2013, 12:15 pm

It was just a few months ago that C&D raved about the 335i as part of their Lightning Lap. Go figure. I remember the test driver saying it was everything you could hope for in a sports sedan. So much of this depends on individual preferences. The recent edition of Bimmer has an article on the 328 sport. Mike Miller likes it better than the E90 but another writer had a very negative review of the car excepting that it didn't have the "masochistic" ride of the E90. People have different expectations and experiences when it comes to driving cars. Hard to take these reviews as objective truth.

JT///M3 commented: May 1, 2013, 12:34 pm

And this is why car manufactures are holding a lot of those driving comparison events. You gotta just find out for yourself.

dtc100 commented: May 1, 2013, 6:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT///M3

And this is why car manufactures are holding a lot of those driving comparison events. You gotta just find out for yourself.

The problem is, those same manufactures also try to feed the notion that the best 0-60 time, or the highest HP, wins. They risk having people come to the driving events, realizing the best 0-60 time hardly means anything, when you are restricted by speed limits.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 1, 2013, 6:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The problem is, those same manufactures also try to feed the notion that the best 0-60 time, or the highest HP, wins. They risk having people come to the driving events, realizing the best 0-60 time hardly means anything, when you are restricted by speed limits.

Look at the thread title lol. There is a 335 owner very excited to see how fast his car is in a magazine from 0-60. As long as he is happy, right?

dtc100 commented: May 1, 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Look at the thread title lol. There is a 335 owner very excited to see how fast his car is in a magazine from 0-60. As long as he is happy, right?

I think it might be more complicated than that.

Could be that the OP wasn't happy they rated the new IS350 F at the top, and the new and fast 335i 0-60 time offered some consolation. Several others sought diffrent aspects for consolation. For example, at least the 335i wins the beauty contest because the top rated car is just butt ugly.

JoeFromPA commented: May 1, 2013, 8:02 pm

Let's see what the m3 brings to the table.

It's a sad day when the 2-ton Audi S4 offers a significantly superior driving experience than the 400 pound less RWD 335i.

kck7 commented: May 1, 2013, 8:10 pm

As a relatively recent (2010) BMW convert who has thoroughly enjoyed his 2011 MY editions of a 335IS convertible and a standard setup X5, I am saddened by what they have done with the F30. The oldest BMW I've ever driven is a 2007 E90, which means I missed out on all that good stuff that people rave about, and there seems to be very little chance that sort of thing will ever return.

I recently had an F30 Luxury as a loaner. Ordinarily, I love driving loaner cars even if they are lower-end (a Mazda 5 mini-mini-van comes to mind - shockingly fun for what it was), as it means trying something new for a short while and putting miles on not my car. But after a few days of this F30, I was calling my SA and bugging him to give me my car back!

The steering is not just numb, there's something else about it that feels fake to the point of distraction. Body roll is, well, very un-BMW like ( I also had a Sport F30 as a loaner, ok but not great). Suspension feels unconfident, as do the brakes (which I suspect the tires contribute to, as I think CD alluded to).

I see BMW and Lexus like two lines on the fun-to-drive graph, one rising, one falling, and depending on who you ask, the lines have converged or are about to. What direction they will take now, who knows. I don't like Lexus (actually its Toyota I despise) but find myself considering the IS as my next car, 2 or 3 years in the future.

I hope the upcoming G37 replacement kicks both their butts. The first-year G35 I owned for 9 years was a sweet ride but then they too lost the plot.

dtc100 commented: May 1, 2013, 10:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kck7

I hope the upcoming G37 replacement kicks both their butts. The first-year G35 I owned for 9 years was a sweet ride but then they too lost the plot.

I won't hold my breath. By all indications so far, the Q50 follows the same go big and go soft trend.

diesel3 commented: May 1, 2013, 10:52 pm

Looks like the C/D 335 test car may be the same one Autoweek had for their recent review:

Ignore the photos accompanying the article as they are clearly not the car tested. The MSRPs of the C/D test car and the Autoweek test car are the same and the C/D photos seem to agree with the options that Autoweek lists at the end of their piece. Looking at that options list, I can't help but conclude that this particular test car is lightly and bizarrely optioned (auto high beams but zero other tech options?) and is missing DHP, which everyone here seems to agree makes the car.

Not trying to be a BMW apologist or make excuses, just noting that this particular test car doesn't represent the best of what the F30 can be.

My F30 335 M Sport order went in a few weeks ago, to replace my '11 335d which I absolutely love. Every time I get in the d I wonder if getting rid of it is the right move (2 years on and the torque is still intoxicating), but the F30 is just that much bigger than the E90 to make it a more practical car, especially in the backseat with my daughter's car seat.

beden1 commented: May 2, 2013, 12:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kck7

As a relatively recent (2010) BMW convert who has thoroughly enjoyed his 2011 MY editions of a 335IS convertible and a standard setup X5, I am saddened by what they have done with the F30. The oldest BMW I've ever driven is a 2007 E90, which means I missed out on all that good stuff that people rave about, and there seems to be very little chance that sort of thing will ever return.

I recently had an F30 Luxury as a loaner. Ordinarily, I love driving loaner cars even if they are lower-end (a Mazda 5 mini-mini-van comes to mind - shockingly fun for what it was), as it means trying something new for a short while and putting miles on not my car. But after a few days of this F30, I was calling my SA and bugging him to give me my car back!

The steering is not just numb, there's something else about it that feels fake to the point of distraction. Body roll is, well, very un-BMW like ( I also had a Sport F30 as a loaner, ok but not great). Suspension feels unconfident, as do the brakes (which I suspect the tires contribute to, as I think CD alluded to).

I see BMW and Lexus like two lines on the fun-to-drive graph, one rising, one falling, and depending on who you ask, the lines have converged or are about to. What direction they will take now, who knows. I don't like Lexus (actually its Toyota I despise) but find myself considering the IS as my next car, 2 or 3 years in the future.

I hope the upcoming G37 replacement kicks both their butts. The first-year G35 I owned for 9 years was a sweet ride but then they too lost the plot.

I remember when I test drove my first BMW back in 1979, a 320i coupe with MT. We had a 1976 Olds Cutlas and a 1975 MGB at the time. The MGB handled very well but felt way underpowered and the Cutlas drove like a boat. I took the BMW on narrow winding back roads and it solidly handled everything in it's path incredibly well by comparison to anything I had driven. It was a thrill and I was instantly in love with that car.

I had the same type of excitement when I first drove a 2009 M3 with DCT. I got out of the car and said to the salesman that this is what a BMW should feel like. Engaging the M Drive turned the car into a beast that gave me a smile from ear to ear.

I nearly felt the same when test driving my 335is. My senses were alive with the handling ability combined with the addictive sound of the exhaust.

I drove my neighbor's new sport F30 with MT about 3 weeks ago. I walked away thinking it was a nice car but that was it. It didn't feel tight, it didn't have the acceleration as compared to my 335is, and it didn't tickle my senses with any decent exhaust note. The most fun that I had with the car was shifting gears, but even so, I found the shifter to have too long of a throw.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur in my thinking, but as a driving enthusiast (as many here no doubt are), I want to be excited when driving a car, especially a new one that I am contemplating buying. If I want a comfy and roomy ride, I'll jump into my Tahoe and take a drive. But, most of the time, I want to have my senses tickled when I'm driving, and I'm sorry to say that the F30 just didn't do it for me.

Here's hoping the F series coupe or M3/4 will be more BMW.

av98 commented: May 2, 2013, 2:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

I remember when I test drove my first BMW back in 1979, a 320i coupe with MT. We had a 1976 Olds Cutlas and a 1975 MGB at the time. The MGB handled very well but felt way underpowered and the Cutlas drove like a boat. I took the BMW on narrow winding back roads and it solidly handled everything in it's path incredibly well by comparison to anything I had driven. It was a thrill and I was instantly in love with that car.

I had the same type of excitement when I first drove a 2009 M3 with DCT. I got out of the car and said to the salesman that this is what a BMW should feel like. Engaging the M Drive turned the car into a beast that gave me a smile from ear to ear.

I nearly felt the same when test driving my 335is. My senses were alive with the handling ability combined with the addictive sound of the exhaust.

I drove my neighbor's new sport F30 with MT about 3 weeks ago. I walked away thinking it was a nice car but that was it. It didn't feel tight, it didn't have the acceleration as compared to my 335is, and it didn't tickle my senses with any decent exhaust note. The most fun that I had with the car was shifting gears, but even so, I found the shifter to have too long of a throw.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur in my thinking, but as a driving enthusiast (as many here no doubt are), I want to be excited when driving a car, especially a new one that I am contemplating buying. If I want a comfy and roomy ride, I'll jump into my Tahoe and take a drive. But, most of the time, I want to have my senses tickled when I'm driving, and I'm sorry to say that the F30 just didn't do it for me.

Here's hoping the F series coupe or M3/4 will be more BMW.

Unfortunately Beden this feedback has been re-iterated over and over again by the old timers who have driven every generation of 3 series. Ironically the E90 -> F30 owners don't seem to notice much but the E46/36/30/21 owners notice the difference right away; most walk away thinking this isn't what a BMW should be. When we point it out we get called names, made fun of because we have older cars and that daily drivers shouldn't be race cars.

It may be worth trying an F30 with the M performance brakes, suspension and exhaust. This should get it closer to the ultimate driving machine. The biggest problem that can't be resolved with upgrades is the electronic power steering. I thought the fly by wire throttle in my E46 was a huge detraction, this new eps is a bigger problem comparatively.

dtc100 commented: May 2, 2013, 7:59 am

It used to be some F30 "hater" would post a thread, a bunch of F30 supporters would chase him out of the room.

Now someone wanted to tell the world how fast the F30 335i is, a bunch of F30 "haters" get hold of the thread, and no F30 supporters even bother?

JoeFromPA commented: May 2, 2013, 8:28 am

So I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I have only had notable seat time in an e30, e36, and e46 and some minor time spent driving 330i and 335i e90's....

I look at these cars as daily drivers first and foremost. I found the e36 loud and cramped and cheap interior - but very very connected to the road. The e46 was probably the best executed - smooth yet communicative. Stylish in it's time and aging well now. Still somewhat cramped but pretty well done.

I found the e90 naturally aspirated cars to be neither as superbly communicative (due to it's weight gain/smoothness perhaps) nor suitably spacious/luxurious to be a pleasant daily driver. The 335i fixed that by adding a hardcore dose of rip-snorting engine.

But for me, the f30 finally brings a 3-series into a preferred daily driver domain for me. It's spacious enough to actually do executive sedan duty without embarassment. It's much better executed in terms of pleasant to drive in the cabin and layout.

It's fairly close to the e90 in terms of removal from the road, exacerbated also by the steering. But while the e90 did not excel at either at either a backroad bomber (compared to, say, an e36) nor an everyday driver, I feel the f30 DOES excel at being an everyday driver while not giving up much as a backroad bomber compared to the f30.

Simultaneously, if you want a much worse daily driver but a much better backroad bomber....you've now got the 1-series, which you didn't have during the e36/e46 phase.

Just my take. There's alot of little things about the f30 that doesn't quite work for me, but I think it's really embodied the development of the 3-series over the years and the advent of the 1-series.

That being said, I am waiting for the m3 to come out to make a decision

dtc100 commented: May 2, 2013, 9:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

There's alot of little things about the f30 that doesn't quite work for me, but I think it's really embodied the development of the 3-series over the years and the advent of the 1-series.

Only 626 1 series sold last month, a big improvement over the past several months, still I won't use the word "advent" to describe such event.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 2, 2013, 11:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98

Unfortunately Beden this feedback has been re-iterated over and over again by the old timers who have driven every generation of 3 series. Ironically the E90 -> F30 owners don't seem to notice much but the E46/36/30/21 owners notice the difference right away; most walk away thinking this isn't what a BMW should be. When we point it out we get called names, made fun of because we have older cars and that daily drivers shouldn't be race cars.

It may be worth trying an F30 with the M performance brakes, suspension and exhaust. This should get it closer to the ultimate driving machine. The biggest problem that can't be resolved with upgrades is the electronic power steering. I thought the fly by wire throttle in my E46 was a huge detraction, this new eps is a bigger problem comparatively.

It also depends on what you are comparing it to.

The person you replied to was saying the tingly feeling he got from a E93 M3 and E93 335is, both specially equipped BMWs that are high up the performance food chain and range from $65-75k. He then drives an F30 Sport 328, the BASE 3 series(now we have the 320, but you get the point). It's one thing if the frame of reference was an E90-92-93 328, bit it's not.

If I was conditioned to such cars, I would have no passion for the F30 328 either. To be honest, my passion for it is rather low compared to my E36/7. THAT car gives me the tingly sensation Beden1 is talking about.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 2, 2013, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

So I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I have only had notable seat time in an e30, e36, and e46 and some minor time spent driving 330i and 335i e90's....

I look at these cars as daily drivers first and foremost. I found the e36 loud and cramped and cheap interior - but very very connected to the road. The e46 was probably the best executed - smooth yet communicative. Stylish in it's time and aging well now. Still somewhat cramped but pretty well done.

I found the e90 naturally aspirated cars to be neither as superbly communicative (due to it's weight gain/smoothness perhaps) nor suitably spacious/luxurious to be a pleasant daily driver. The 335i fixed that by adding a hardcore dose of rip-snorting engine.

But for me, the f30 finally brings a 3-series into a preferred daily driver domain for me. It's spacious enough to actually do executive sedan duty without embarassment. It's much better executed in terms of pleasant to drive in the cabin and layout.

It's fairly close to the e90 in terms of removal from the road, exacerbated also by the steering. But while the e90 did not excel at either at either a backroad bomber (compared to, say, an e36) nor an everyday driver, I feel the f30 DOES excel at being an everyday driver while not giving up much as a backroad bomber compared to the f30.

Simultaneously, if you want a much worse daily driver but a much better backroad bomber....you've now got the 1-series, which you didn't have during the e36/e46 phase.

Just my take. There's alot of little things about the f30 that doesn't quite work for me, but I think it's really embodied the development of the 3-series over the years and the advent of the 1-series.

That being said, I am waiting for the m3 to come out to make a decision

I agree 100%, that is how one wound up in my garage instead of an E90. I too will look to see what the F80 M3 brings to the table and see if it's worth ditching the F30 for in 2-3 years time.

Nepal commented: May 2, 2013, 11:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The problem is, those same manufactures also try to feed the notion that the best 0-60 time, or the highest HP, wins. They risk having people come to the driving events, realizing the best 0-60 time hardly means anything, when you are restricted by speed limits.

Can't disagree more. Yes, 155 mph probably doesn't mean anything to me, but 0-60, or 5-60, 20-40, 40-70, etc means everything to a lot of people. To me, since I don't take my car to the track, cornering ability is something very nice to have but so far I lose my courage waaaaay before my 335i lose it's grip, so who gives a @#$%?

Clepto commented: May 2, 2013, 12:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It also depends on what you are comparing it to.

The person you replied to was saying the tingly feeling he got from a E93 M3 and E93 335is, both specially equipped BMWs that are high up the performance food chain and range from $65-75k. He then drives an F30 Sport 328, the BASE 3 series(now we have the 320, but you get the point). It's one thing if the frame of reference was an E90-92-93 328, bit it's not.

I like my F30 328, but test driving the F30 335 was definitely more grin worthy/tingly. I only drove the 335 in Sport mode and it had DHP as well, a much different experience than even my 328 sport w/o DHP can provide. We can't even make an apples to apples comparison to an M3 or 335is for another few months.

Elk commented: May 2, 2013, 12:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nepal

To me, since I don't take my car to the track, cornering ability is something very nice to have but so far I lose my courage waaaaay before my 335i lose it's grip, so who gives a @#$%?

Handling is so much more than the extremes.

Good handling is instantly apparent on even slow gentle corners - even turning out of the driveway. The feel of a good sport car is immensely enjoyable even during a grocery run.

This is why I commute in my Z06. My F30 is my winter beater.

JoeFromPA commented: May 2, 2013, 1:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Only 626 1 series sold last month, a big improvement over the past several months, still I won't use the word "advent" to describe such event.

I think that's a reflection of how many individuals would buy a BMW for it's feel vs. for it's other traits....

Chris90 commented: May 2, 2013, 1:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clepto

I like my F30 328, but test driving the F30 335 was definitely more grin worthy/tingly. I only drove the 335 in Sport mode and it had DHP as well, a much different experience than even my 328 sport w/o DHP can provide. We can't even make an apples to apples comparison to an M3 or 335is for another few months.

Why is DHP more sporty than a Sport suspension without DHP?

dtc100 commented: May 2, 2013, 1:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I think that's a reflection of how many individuals would buy a BMW for it's feel vs. for it's other traits....

Or it could be just like the new IS350 F sport case, the 1 series is butt ugly, to the point no performance benefits can overcome that image problem.

///M-Furby commented: May 2, 2013, 1:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMQ

The general trend is that BMW is losing it. I like BMWs and have been a BMWCCA member for 6 years, but the trend is worrisome. Drinking their coolaid is not worth it.

BMW will probably make more money by appealing to the masses. The ultimate driving machine it is not.

So what car is the ultimate driving machine?
BTW who is your avatar?

Clepto commented: May 2, 2013, 2:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

Why is DHP more sporty than a Sport suspension without DHP?

Keep in mind my DHP experience was exclusive to a 335 so that probably colors my impression considerably. That being said, driving both in Sport Mode, the adaptive nature may come into play, making it feel a little stiffer when needed. I was taking corners more aggressively in the 335 as well because the throttle response was so much more immediate on the 335 vs the 328.

Steering, I'm not sure if I really noticed a difference or not, though I know some people have commented that there seems to be more vibration in non-DHP equipped cars.

I was also not on a track, so my experience was purely on highway and on/off ramps. Someone with significant seat time on a track could have noticeably different impressions.

beden1 commented: May 2, 2013, 4:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

Handling is so much more than the extremes.

Good handling is instantly apparent on even slow gentle corners - even turning out of the driveway. The feel of a good sport car is immensely enjoyable even during a grocery run.

This is why I commute in my Z06. My F30 is my winter beater.

Someone who also gets what I was trying to say. Cars (including sedans) can be so much more than mere transportation. It's about the total driving experience and not just for those who track their cars. One should look forward to and be excited to drive their car each time they sit in the driver seat. That's what we used to pay for when buying a BMW.

dtc100 commented: May 2, 2013, 4:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Someone who also gets what I was trying to say. Cars (including sedans) can be so much more than mere transportation. It's about the total driving experience and not just for those who track their cars. One should look forward to and be excited to drive their car each time they sit in the driver seat. That's what we used to pay for when buying a BMW.

Depending on why and to where you are driving. I can't get excited driving a sports car to the local lumber yard, if I have to grab hold the lumber on the roof by one hand. I'd rather drive a beat up pickup truck.

Elk commented: May 2, 2013, 4:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Depending on why and to where you are driving. I can't get excited driving a sports car to the local lumber yard . . .

One can enjoy a truck if it is fun for you. Just do not be disappointed it drives like a truck.

I know plenty of people who enjoy their trucks, boats, etc. - vehicles in which I have zero interest, but they do.

Back to the F30. It is sold as a sports sedan. It should be sporty and fun to drive at all times.

captainaudio commented: May 2, 2013, 5:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Someone who also gets what I was trying to say. Cars (including sedans) can be so much more than mere transportation. It's about the total driving experience and not just for those who track their cars. One should look forward to and be excited to drive their car each time they sit in the driver seat. That's what we used to pay for when buying a BMW.

When I test drove E9x the difference between a 328 with the regular suspension and the GM AT and a 335i with sport package and the ZF AT was immediately noticeable at very normal speeds. The 328 was not bad but the 335 was enough better IMO that it was a no brainer to go for the 335. Of course after I brought a 335i with sport package into NYC it truly did turn out to be a no brain decision, but at this point with Continental Extreme Contact DWS and Koni FSDs I have no issues with the way the car drivess.

I am looking at the new Jaguar F-Type and the new Porsche Cayman S as a replacement for the E93 but will very likely wait for the F93 and M4 before I make a decision.

CA

sr5959 commented: May 2, 2013, 6:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Someone who also gets what I was trying to say. Cars (including sedans) can be so much more than mere transportation. It's about the total driving experience and not just for those who track their cars. One should look forward to and be excited to drive their car each time they sit in the driver seat. That's what we used to pay for when buying a BMW.

I agree but I think it totally depends on what you are used to. After years of driving SUVs (Jeep GC/ML320/Lexus RX) I love the handling of my F30 which is a baseline. It honestly feels great on every drive. Similarly a person who has owned Porsche's for years would I think find even an M3 disappointing.

dtc100 commented: May 2, 2013, 6:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

One can enjoy a truck if it is fun for you. Just do not be disappointed it drives like a truck.

I know plenty of people who enjoy their trucks, boats, etc. - vehicles in which I have zero interest, but they do.

Back to the F30. It is sold as a sports sedan. It should be sporty and fun to drive at all times.

People drive trucks mostly not because the trucks are fun to drive, but for the utility. You can enjoy the utility (and comfort) a modern truck provides, even if it does not offer much driving fun.

Elk commented: May 2, 2013, 7:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

People drive trucks mostly not because the trucks are fun to drive, but for the utility.

There are many who adore driving a truck as a truck and prefer it to a car, even a sporty car. Similarly, there are many who love their SUV as SUV.

People come with all sorts of preferences.

Capobranco commented: May 2, 2013, 8:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

... Similarly a person who has owned Porsche's for years would I think find even an M3 disappointing.

As a former long time Porsche owner, I find my M3 to be thrilling.

dtc100 commented: May 2, 2013, 8:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk

There are many who adore driving a truck as a truck and prefer it to a car, even a sporty car. Similarly, there are many who love their SUV as SUV.

People come with all sorts of preferences.

Probably not because they are fun to drive though.

beden1 commented: May 2, 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Depending on why and to where you are driving. I can't get excited driving a sports car to the local lumber yard, if I have to grab hold the lumber on the roof by one hand. I'd rather drive a beat up pickup truck.

I use my '02 Suburban for just this sort of duty. In fact, I'll be loading it up on Friday with garden supplies from Home Depot.

I hope you won't be carrying a mattress or such home on the roof of your new 911 after you take delivery. The Porsche Police will come and take your car away.

beden1 commented: May 2, 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capobranco

As a former long time Porsche owner, I find my M3 to be thrilling.

As a current Porsche owner, I also find our M3 to be thrilling. It's just not quite as thrilling as the Porsche.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 2, 2013, 10:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

As a current Porsche owner, I also find our M3 to be thrilling. It's just not quite as thrilling as the Porsche.

Confused, I thought the M3 was your son's car.

beden1 commented: May 3, 2013, 12:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Confused, I thought the M3 was your son's car.

It is technically my car that he drives as his. I have it here now to take in for service and spend some quality detailing time on it. I'll have it for another 3 weeks or so. I usually keep it one month a year to bring it back to showroom condition since he works like 80 hour work weeks trying to get ahead in his job. In between working on it, I take fun rides on some of my favorite roads to wring it out.

I do the same with my daughter's S4.

dtc100 commented: May 3, 2013, 9:12 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

I hope you won't be carrying a mattress or such home on the roof...

Now we know how to respond to the spouses' harsh criticism for not ordering the sun/moon/pano roof. It is critical to reduce the weight and maintain body rigidity at the very top of the car, in the event mattresses need to be transported.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 3, 2013, 9:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

It is technically my car that he drives as his. I have it here now to take in for service and spend some quality detailing time on it. I'll have it for another 3 weeks or so. I usually keep it one month a year to bring it back to showroom condition since he works like 80 hour work weeks trying to get ahead in his job. In between working on it, I take fun rides on some of my favorite roads to wring it out.

I do the same with my daughter's S4.

Interesting...ownership though, kind of comes down to who PAID for the cars though lol.

I mean my father's car, I do all the maintenance on it, I found it, I negotiated the deal, I may even put more miles on it at this point. But it was his money, so I still call it "his" car. But I think we are only a year or two away before I have to take the keys from him anyway lol.

dtc100 commented: May 3, 2013, 9:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

But I think we are only a year or two away before I have to take the keys from him anyway lol.

It will be his car that you have stolen from.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 3, 2013, 9:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

It will be his car that you have stolen from.

LOL no, my mother is signing the title over to me. At a certain point, no one wants him driving.

It's a 6spd manual Saab wagon, I know it well. The wagon will be put to good use for Home Depot runs.

beden1 commented: May 3, 2013, 9:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Interesting...ownership though, kind of comes down to who PAID for the cars though lol.

I mean my father's car, I do all the maintenance on it, I found it, I negotiated the deal, I may even put more miles on it at this point. But it was his money, so I still call it "his" car. But I think we are only a year or two away before I have to take the keys from him anyway lol.

So, you not only make your mother and father sit in the back seat of your F30, but you're planning on taking their car away from them too?

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 3, 2013, 10:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

So, you not only make your mother and father sit in the back seat of your F30, but you're planning on taking their car away from them too?

It's HIS car, she has not driven in 20+ years.

And yes, for the safety of others, there will soon come a day when he is no longer going to be driving. First, years ago, they insisted on having a minivan. It would get countless scrapes from him coming to contact with other cars and the house. I insisted they downsize to the wagon.

It's happening again now with the wagon. He is also losing his impulse control, so even if he is not clear to move over, or misses an exit, he does not care and does it anyway. My mother is getting less and less comfortable with him driving. Hurting himself is one thing, but what about her, what if his lack of self control takes out a young family? At a certain point, it's just not safe.

Not saying it's there just yet, but it's getting there.

Capobranco commented: May 3, 2013, 11:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

As a current Porsche owner, I also find our M3 to be thrilling. It's just not quite as thrilling as the Porsche.

The reason I lust after Porsches more than M3s is when I sit in an M3, it feels too much like my ordinary 3 series.

But now after hearing the sound of the V8, I'm instead lusting after a Jaguar F-Type 6 speed manual coupe.

PK2348 commented: May 3, 2013, 1:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

I remember when I test drove my first BMW back in 1979, a 320i coupe with MT. We had a 1976 Olds Cutlas and a 1975 MGB at the time. The MGB handled very well but felt way underpowered and the Cutlas drove like a boat. I took the BMW on narrow winding back roads and it solidly handled everything in it's path incredibly well by comparison to anything I had driven. It was a thrill and I was instantly in love with that car.

I had the same type of excitement when I first drove a 2009 M3 with DCT. I got out of the car and said to the salesman that this is what a BMW should feel like. Engaging the M Drive turned the car into a beast that gave me a smile from ear to ear.

I nearly felt the same when test driving my 335is. My senses were alive with the handling ability combined with the addictive sound of the exhaust.

I drove my neighbor's new sport F30 with MT about 3 weeks ago. I walked away thinking it was a nice car but that was it. It didn't feel tight, it didn't have the acceleration as compared to my 335is, and it didn't tickle my senses with any decent exhaust note. The most fun that I had with the car was shifting gears, but even so, I found the shifter to have too long of a throw.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur in my thinking, but as a driving enthusiast (as many here no doubt are), I want to be excited when driving a car, especially a new one that I am contemplating buying. If I want a comfy and roomy ride, I'll jump into my Tahoe and take a drive. But, most of the time, I want to have my senses tickled when I'm driving, and I'm sorry to say that the F30 just didn't do it for me.

Here's hoping the F series coupe or M3/4 will be more BMW.

Your opinions are very well respected here and rightfully so. For that reason, i am curious to ask you a question.
In your opinion, how would you compare the handling of you non-sport e60 to the f30 you test drove?
I had the e60 for 2 years, and driving base f30, can't help but think that e60 would outhandle it.

JoeFromPA commented: May 3, 2013, 2:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

As a current Porsche owner, I also find our M3 to be thrilling. It's just not quite as thrilling as the Porsche.

I'm kinda pissed at myself that I STILL haven't driven a Cayman or Cayman S, nor a 2005+ Boxster.

I drove a '99 boxster extensively and it left me lukewarm. It was never fun to drive, for me, unless it was being flogged into corners. It rode like crap (had Bilstein HDs on it though and 18" wheels on a car built for 16"), had tons of body flex, it's engine was decent but not totally intoxicating, it's clutch was a PITA in daily driving, and it's shifter was notchy.

From what I understand a 2005+ or more modern boxster cayman has amazing ride quality, tight chassis, beautiful rev happy and aurally pleasing engines, smooth clutches and buttery shifters.

Just typing this out makes me want to go test drive a Cayman for daily driving

dtc100 commented: May 3, 2013, 2:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It's HIS car, she has not driven in 20+ years.

And yes, for the safety of others, there will soon come a day when he is no longer going to be driving. First, years ago, they insisted on having a minivan. It would get countless scrapes from him coming to contact with other cars and the house. I insisted they downsize to the wagon.

It's happening again now with the wagon. He is also losing his impulse control, so even if he is not clear to move over, or misses an exit, he does not care and does it anyway. My mother is getting less and less comfortable with him driving. Hurting himself is one thing, but what about her, what if his lack of self control takes out a young family? At a certain point, it's just not safe.

Not saying it's there just yet, but it's getting there.

And you have not reported it to Homeland Security?

dtc100 commented: May 3, 2013, 2:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

The reason I lust after Porsches more than M3s is when I sit in an M3, it feels too much like my ordinary 3 series.

But now after hearing the sound of the V8, I'm instead lusting after a Jaguar F-Type 6 speed manual coupe.

When is the F-Type going to be available? I think Jag has the same hurdle to overcome like Range Rover, their past reliability records were a big drag.

Chris90 commented: May 3, 2013, 4:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

When is the F-Type going to be available? I think Jag has the same hurdle to overcome like Range Rover, their past reliability records were a big drag.

The F-Type goes on sale in May. Coupe and manual transmission are supposed to come next year.

Your opinions are very well respected here and rightfully so. For that reason, i am curious to ask you a question.
In your opinion, how would you compare the handling of you non-sport e60 to the f30 you test drove?
I had the e60 for 2 years, and driving base f30, can't help but think that e60 would outhandle it.

Thank you, but to be fair, I drove my neighbor's F30 in SE Florida where the roads are flat and straight. I would need to drive one here in PA where we have great winding back country roads that challenge the handling of any car. Our E60 535xi handles extremely well on our roads here in PA. It has a solid road hugging feel with ample acceleration and limited body roll. I drove it yesterday and it feels tighter to me than did the F30, but to be fair, I would need to drive the F30 here.

captainaudio commented: May 3, 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

When is the F-Type going to be available? I think Jag has the same hurdle to overcome like Range Rover, their past reliability records were a big drag.

Jaguars started to become reliable after Ford took them over. By 2009 Jaguar was at the top of the JD Power reliability ratings tied with Buick and well ahead of BMW. As far as I now quality did not go down after they were purchased by Tata motors. I test drove a couple of XKR-S last year. That certainly is not a test of reliability but the fit and finish and quality of the interior materials was first rate.

We had a 2007 XKR Coupe for several years and it was very reliable. Our BMW 335i has been reliable as well in spite of the fact that Consumer Reports rated it very low for reliability.

CA

dtc100 commented: May 3, 2013, 5:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

The F-Type goes on sale in May. Coupe and manual transmission are supposed to come next year.

Of course a V8 has the advantage in sound making, but the second video demonstrated there is no exhaust note (including burbles) a nice exhaust system cannot fix.

PK2348 commented: May 3, 2013, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Thank you, but to be fair, I drove my neighbor's F30 in SE Florida where the roads are flat and straight. I would need to drive one here in PA where we have great winding back country roads that challenge the handling of any car. Our E60 535xi handles extremely well on our roads here in PA. It has a solid road hugging feel with ample acceleration and limited body roll. I drove it yesterday and it feels tighter to me than did the F30, but to be fair, I would need to drive the F30 here.

Thank you, I spent 3 years in an e90 between e60 and f30, so it's a bit hard to recollect and compare. but i am positive e60 felt so much more planted and had much better steering. Mine was rwd 528 with base suspension.

Elk commented: May 3, 2013, 7:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Probably not because they are fun to drive though.

Merely because you do not find a vehicle fun to drive does not mean others do not find it deliriously amusing.

"Fun" is wholly subjective.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 3, 2013, 7:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PK2348

Thank you, I spent 3 years in an e90 between e60 and f30, so it's a bit hard to recollect and compare. but i am positive e60 felt so much more planted and had much better steering. Mine was rwd 528 with base suspension.

The Xdrive F30 is giving you a double whammy compared to your E60. The base suspension is softer than it has ever been, even compared to previous non sport suspensions from BMW. The Xdrive just amplifies it. If you had Xdrive with DHP or RWD Sport, you would find a more positive handling comparison to your previous E60.

HokieXDriver commented: May 3, 2013, 7:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The Xdrive F30 is giving you a double whammy compared to your E60. The base suspension is softer than it has ever been, even compared to previous non sport suspensions from BMW. The Xdrive just amplifies it. If you had Xdrive with DHP or RWD Sport, you would find a more positive handling comparison to your previous E60.

I am going from an E60 535 xDrive (therefore no real sport suspension even though I bought the sport package for the seats). My new vehicle will be an F30 M Sport 335 RWD with DHP. I can post my impressions after I pick up the car - if it ever shows up (how long do these things sit at the port? what on earth is going on over there? I have visions of Season 2 of The Wire).

But keep in mind, my E60 runs on Michelin Pilot Super Sports and the F30 will have the stock 19" staggered performance RFTs. I won't really know the difference until I buy Michelin Pilot Super Sports for the F30, probably a week or so after I pick it up.

Chris90 commented: May 3, 2013, 7:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Of course a V8 has the advantage in sound making, but the second video demonstrated there is no exhaust note (including burbles) a nice exhaust system cannot fix.

really? The 2nd video to me showed you can't make a V6 sound like a V8.

The V6 sounds like a car with a nice exhaust, the V8 sounds exotic and special.

PK2348 commented: May 3, 2013, 7:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The Xdrive F30 is giving you a double whammy compared to your E60. The base suspension is softer than it has ever been, even compared to previous non sport suspensions from BMW. The Xdrive just amplifies it. If you had Xdrive with DHP or RWD Sport, you would find a more positive handling comparison to your previous E60.

you are right. scary thing is, the suspension is growing on me. it does not give you the confidence while driving, but if you push it, it performs. With bodyroll, but performs. Steering still sucks though under most circumstances.
Recently a car jumped out in front of me on the highway. i had to slam on the brakes, they actually locked up and the car started loosing traction and going sideways, it was amazingly easy to correct this and i felt extremely connected to the front wheels for that second or so. But under normal driving, boaty, floaty and so on

HokieXDriver commented: May 3, 2013, 7:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PK2348

Recently a car jumped out in front of me on the highway. i had to slam on the brakes, they actually locked up and the car started loosing traction and going sideways, it was amazingly easy to correct this and i felt extremely connected to the front wheels for that second or so. But under normal driving, boaty, floaty and so on

This sure sounds like tires, not suspension. My winter tires act this way but back on my summer Michelin PSS, everything is fine.

PK2348 commented: May 3, 2013, 7:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokieXDriver

This sure sounds like tires, not suspension. My winter tires act this way but back on my summer Michelin PSS, everything is fine.

tires would make it less floaty if i understand correctly, but won't have much effect on EPS

dtc100 commented: May 3, 2013, 8:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

really? The 2nd video to me showed you can't make a V6 sound like a V8.

The V6 sounds like a car with a nice exhaust, the V8 sounds exotic and special.

They did not even try to record the V6's sound like they did for the V8. I am not saying a V6 can be equal to a V8, but the 991 PSE was one sweet sounding exhaust with burbles. Not to mention Jag will be certain to not let the V6 sound as good as the V8.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 3, 2013, 8:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PK2348

tires would make it less floaty if i understand correctly, but won't have much effect on EPS

The switch to lighter wheels and the PSS's gave an increase in feel and feedback of the EPS. Night and day, no. I have heard that I may get a similar bump when installing the beefier lowering springs in a couple of weeks.

PK2348 commented: May 3, 2013, 8:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The switch to lighter wheels and the PSS's gave an increase in feel and feedback of the EPS. Night and day, no. I have heard that I may get a similar bump when installing the beefier lowering springs in a couple of weeks.

keep us posted. would love to hear your impressions

HokieXDriver commented: May 3, 2013, 8:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PK2348

tires would make it less floaty if i understand correctly, but won't have much effect on EPS

I meant the lockup on braking and partial slide.

eshelman commented: May 3, 2013, 9:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLC

Yeah. It would be interesting to know if this test was done with DHP or not. From what I've heard about DHP (haven't driven one yet), it seems like that may solve some of their complaints, but if the test WAS done with DHP, then that makes me a little concerned.

what is DHP?

HokieXDriver commented: May 3, 2013, 10:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eshelman

what is DHP?

Dynamic Handling Package.

beden1 commented: May 4, 2013, 12:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It's HIS car, she has not driven in 20+ years.

And yes, for the safety of others, there will soon come a day when he is no longer going to be driving. First, years ago, they insisted on having a minivan. It would get countless scrapes from him coming to contact with other cars and the house. I insisted they downsize to the wagon.

It's happening again now with the wagon. He is also losing his impulse control, so even if he is not clear to move over, or misses an exit, he does not care and does it anyway. My mother is getting less and less comfortable with him driving. Hurting himself is one thing, but what about her, what if his lack of self control takes out a young family? At a certain point, it's just not safe.

Not saying it's there just yet, but it's getting there.

Impulse Control. That's interesting and helps me understand what happened with my father's driving ability. He started pulling out into traffic when he should have waited and he was starting to have some mishaps like driving into a ditch along the side of the road. The doctors later said that he was also developing Parkinson's Disease.

I didn't have to be the one to have his license taken away. The doctor forced that to happen, but it proved to be the right decision.

I agree that elderly drivers would be better off driving smaller cars that are easier to manipulate, but as I was driving up from FL to PA last week, most of the elderly drivers had SUVs or minivans.

beden1 commented: May 4, 2013, 12:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I'm kinda pissed at myself that I STILL haven't driven a Cayman or Cayman S, nor a 2005+ Boxster.

I drove a '99 boxster extensively and it left me lukewarm. It was never fun to drive, for me, unless it was being flogged into corners. It rode like crap (had Bilstein HDs on it though and 18" wheels on a car built for 16"), had tons of body flex, it's engine was decent but not totally intoxicating, it's clutch was a PITA in daily driving, and it's shifter was notchy.

From what I understand a 2005+ or more modern boxster cayman has amazing ride quality, tight chassis, beautiful rev happy and aurally pleasing engines, smooth clutches and buttery shifters.

Just typing this out makes me want to go test drive a Cayman for daily driving

Don't test drive a Cayman S or Boxster S unless you're prepared to sign on the bottom line. I drove the Boxster S and it is a really fun and super capable car.

captainaudio commented: May 4, 2013, 3:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Don't test drive a Cayman S or Boxster S unless you're prepared to sign on the bottom line. I drove the Boxster S and it is a really fun and super capable car.

I drove a new Cayman last week and is a terrific car.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

Chris90 commented: May 4, 2013, 8:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Don't test drive a Cayman S or Boxster S unless you're prepared to sign on the bottom line. I drove the Boxster S and it is a really fun and super capable car.

+1 no way I will test drive a Porsche til I'm ready to buy.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 4, 2013, 10:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Impulse Control. That's interesting and helps me understand what happened with my father's driving ability. He started pulling out into traffic when he should have waited and he was starting to have some mishaps like driving into a ditch along the side of the road. The doctors later said that he was also developing Parkinson's Disease.

I didn't have to be the one to have his license taken away. The doctor forced that to happen, but it proved to be the right decision.

I agree that elderly drivers would be better off driving smaller cars that are easier to manipulate, but as I was driving up from FL to PA last week, most of the elderly drivers had SUVs or minivans.

Yep, pretty much what I am talking about, something not to be taken lightly. My father is also bi-polar, so he has long lived his life with bouts of feeling invincible, a bad combo. The last time he really felt that way he was 65 and had a green crotch rocket(ZX6RR) that he described as driving like a road going jet. He wound up stuffing that into a large pothole wrecking the bike and his shoulder.

Florida, oof Florida. When I was there in November, I had an elderly person drive into our lane head on at 60mph and did not flinch, did not veer, no matter what. It was SCARY.

Nedmundo commented: May 4, 2013, 11:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Thank you, but to be fair, I drove my neighbor's F30 in SE Florida where the roads are flat and straight. I would need to drive one here in PA where we have great winding back country roads that challenge the handling of any car. Our E60 535xi handles extremely well on our roads here in PA. It has a solid road hugging feel with ample acceleration and limited body roll. I drove it yesterday and it feels tighter to me than did the F30, but to be fair, I would need to drive the F30 here.

Well, I've tested two 328i F30's on the Brandywine back roads around Wilmington and Chadds Ford, and my impressions have been identical to yours. They did not deliver the sensory pleasures of previous BMW's I've driven, even the Sport Line 328i with 6MT. The main culprits IMO are the lifeless steering and somewhat isolated feel. I think the car's refinement masks sensations of speed and acceleration, but I suspect this could be at least partially addressed with a sports exhaust. I didn't think the Sport Line's suspension was too soft/floaty for proper sport sedan handling, as some have said, but I didn't push it that hard either. It did not feel as firm as the Sport Package E90 I tested a while back, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for daily driving, and some of the difference might be attributable to changes in the RFT's.

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 4, 2013, 11:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedmundo

Well, I've tested two 328i F30's on the Brandywine back roads around Wilmington and Chadds Ford, and my impressions have been identical to yours. They did not deliver the sensory pleasures of previous BMW's I've driven, even the Sport Line 328i with 6MT. The main culprits IMO are the lifeless steering and somewhat isolated feel. I think the car's refinement masks sensations of speed and acceleration, but I suspect this could be at least partially addressed with a sports exhaust. I didn't think the Sport Line's suspension was too soft/floaty for proper sport sedan handling, as some have said, but I didn't push it that hard either. It did not feel as firm as the Sport Package E90 I tested a while back, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for daily driving, and some of the difference might be attributable to changes in the RFT's.

I think the F30 sports suspension falls under the E90 sport suspension in terms of stiffness and roll resistance. I think you need the MPerformance set up to meet and or exceed the E90.

I am also willing to bet updates to the F30 steering are coming. It will be interesting to try out the F80 steering rack, it might be cross compatible if it is an improvement.

slave2gravity commented: May 4, 2013, 6:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PK2348

I am also willing to bet updates to the F30 steering are coming. It will be interesting to try out the F80 steering rack, it might be cross compatible if it is an improvement.

I know next to nothing about electric steering systems, so is this sort of thing that can be retrofitted to early F30s with just a simple software update? Or are there physical components that are altered to improve feel on an electric steering set up?

beden1 commented: May 4, 2013, 11:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedmundo

Well, I've tested two 328i F30's on the Brandywine back roads around Wilmington and Chadds Ford, and my impressions have been identical to yours. They did not deliver the sensory pleasures of previous BMW's I've driven, even the Sport Line 328i with 6MT. The main culprits IMO are the lifeless steering and somewhat isolated feel. I think the car's refinement masks sensations of speed and acceleration, but I suspect this could be at least partially addressed with a sports exhaust. I didn't think the Sport Line's suspension was too soft/floaty for proper sport sedan handling, as some have said, but I didn't push it that hard either. It did not feel as firm as the Sport Package E90 I tested a while back, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for daily driving, and some of the difference might be attributable to changes in the RFT's.

I agree that the F30 is probably a very good daily driver. That's what I felt would be the determination when I got the opportunity to drive one around here.

I love the back roads in Chadds Ford and Brandywine. I usually frequent the back roads of Willistown, E. Goshen and Newtown Square. My favorite road is now Rte. 401 heading north towards Rte. 23 and then out and about the farmlands of Lancaster. Just wide open spaces with plenty of hills and turns with decent road surfaces. Some sprited driving with the top down is a great way to spend the day enjoying the car.

beden1 commented: May 5, 2013, 12:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Yep, pretty much what I am talking about, something not to be taken lightly. My father is also bi-polar, so he has long lived his life with bouts of feeling invincible, a bad combo. The last time he really felt that way he was 65 and had a green crotch rocket(ZX6RR) that he described as driving like a road going jet. He wound up stuffing that into a large pothole wrecking the bike and his shoulder.

Florida, oof Florida. When I was there in November, I had an elderly person drive into our lane head on at 60mph and did not flinch, did not veer, no matter what. It was SCARY.

Many Florida drivers are pretty bad. You really have to pay attention because there are so many elderly drivers, and illegal aliens who have no clue how to drive in a civilized society.

beden1 commented: May 5, 2013, 12:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I drove a new Cayman last week and is a terrific car.

Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

The new Cayman S is supposed to be really excellent. I bet that was a fun experience.

eclampsium commented: May 5, 2013, 12:57 pm

Strange comparisson... The 335 has the best engine/trans/fuelconsuption/0-60 and looses in the "flexibility" question...?
It wins in almost all the "objective" tests but looses in the "subjective" tests... Come on, "Fun to drive" less than the other slower ones!!!?

Jamesonsviggen commented: May 5, 2013, 7:55 pm

I read the article today and notice the specs for trunk space are off and the points are awarded as such. Just the adjustment there would have points dispersed differently.

windsor027 commented: May 6, 2013, 7:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by krash

Yeah, I have DHP which comes with variable steering. I have yet seen any real comparisons between the standard electrical assist steering and the variable steering that comes with DHP.

Every car I test drove had the standard steering, but I honestly didn't drive them enough to get a real good feel.

I really like the steering in my car, but since it has DHP, I doubt my steering experience is the same as those without DHP.

Same here. Honestly with DHP and in sport mode I think car is awesome. It has been a year since I drove a non DHP car and honestly I didn't push it anywhere near to what I have done with mine so I really can't tell you how different it is. All I know my car is as responsive if not more than my 328i sport with immensely more comfortable ride, and i still have the run flats on it. When I get Michelin Pilot super Sport summer tires on it this thing will be out of the park .

JoeFromPA commented: May 6, 2013, 12:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

I agree that the F30 is probably a very good daily driver. That's what I felt would be the determination when I got the opportunity to drive one around here.

I love the back roads in Chadds Ford and Brandywine. I usually frequent the back roads of Willistown, E. Goshen and Newtown Square. My favorite road is now Rte. 401 heading north towards Rte. 23 and then out and about the farmlands of Lancaster. Just wide open spaces with plenty of hills and turns with decent road surfaces. Some sprited driving with the top down is a great way to spend the day enjoying the car.

PM'd you...

Tom Martin commented: May 7, 2013, 8:54 pm

That's good news. I guess my '12 335i Xdrive with Dinan Stage 2 download, Dinan Stage 2 suspension and Dinan exhausr system, Enkei Race PF01 wheels with Bridgestone 255/35-18 Pole Positions
will do 0-60 in about 4.3 and it rides and handles just great and sounds great with ther Dinan exhaust system.

760Lifan commented: May 7, 2013, 9:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Many Florida drivers are pretty bad.

Many...but not all..

JT///M3 commented: May 7, 2013, 9:47 pm

This is crazy, but basically a 335i will be as fast, if not faster, than both the E60 and F10 M5? And get 32mpgs...hahahah

KLC commented: May 7, 2013, 10:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT///M3

This is crazy, but basically a 335i will be as fast, if not faster, than both the E60 and F10 M5? And get 32mpgs...hahahah

F10 m5 has recorded 0-60's in the high 3's.

JT///M3 commented: May 7, 2013, 10:16 pm

I guess I was going off published data from BMW. They are conservative. But still, a 335i is FAAST!!!