CP wrote:See, I disagree. Schools are always feeling the pressure to protect those at the top of the chain, particularly when those figures are nationally prominent and bring donors and money to the school just by their very presence. They only take action when forced to do so because the risk/reward slants too far in favor of covering it up for as long as possible.

Punishing the institution by taking away the money has the side effect of punishing student-athletes, but the institution still needs punished. Perhaps knowing that your programs will receive the death penalty if you allow this type of behavior to continue might prevent the next college president from looking the other way.

Just punishing the individuals insures that those in charge will just be smarter about throwing those beneath them under the bus. Protecting themselves and the institution is always their paramount concern. If, in the future, that means flipping on a prized asset like Joe Paterno (or Jerry Sandusky), then I would much rather have the potential tortfeasor on notice that he'll be turned in (and not protected) when he crosses the line.

And I respect that opinion.

But I think that the institution has been punished and will be punished further. Penn State is done as a tier 1 university. It will be decades, if they ever recover. And the lawsuits will come. They will pay out tens of millions over this. It will hurt and they will suffer.

And given that, I think that the NCAA bringing further punishments punishes the wrong people too much without adding much relative to the suffering PSU is going to suffer over this.

e0y2e3 wrote:There is nothing gained from killing the program, besides making a tragedy even worse.

I don't understand this "bad things happened, let's make them worse!!!!" reaction. Fuckin eh, this is a community that just found out it's hero and the man that built it sold his soul to satan. Pissing on their corpses isn't good for anything and anyone.

The tragedy is in no way related to the game of football. Playing or not playing impacts the tragedy not at all.

Having said that, "the community" needs to learn the lesson. Frankly, I am not sure that I see evidence of that. Paterno is still revered.

e0y2e3 wrote:I don't see how that helps anyone. PSU is in the B1G for reasons far larger than just football and again, why try to destroy one of the greater public American Education centers in the US?

Had this ocurred in the hospital with a surgeon, does the hospital close?

Well, what I have heard from people inside of the beast today is that the lesson is being learned. There will be all the stages of grieving, but ultimately they will understand (some already do). This is a terrible day to be a Happy Vallyian.

e0y2e3 wrote:Well, what I have heard from people inside of the beast today is that the lesson is being learned. There will be all the stages of grieving, but ultimately they will understand (some already do). This is a terrible day to be a Happy Vallyian.

I guess I don't believe that the lesson is being learned and won't until they suffer actual consequences for allowing this to occur. This isn't killing the institution, it's not going anywhere. Its academic reputation isn't on the line, only the way in which it allows its sports program to undermine a normally prudent and reasonable institution in all other facets.

No one is trying to eliminate Penn State as an institution. Severely punishing it by indefinitely eliminating its athletic department doesn't make a Penn State diploma worth any less in the job market. The school gets what it gets, though. Not a single whistle-blower in the entire university? It's not like the Sandusky rumors were a recent phenomenon.

e0y2e3 wrote:Well, what I have heard from people inside of the beast today is that the lesson is being learned. There will be all the stages of grieving, but ultimately they will understand (some already do). This is a terrible day to be a Happy Vallyian.

^Being "I know a guy" Guy instead of looking at the bigger picture.

Potential Topplers O' Football Gods (like McQueary should have been, like the Janitor should have been, like many others should have been...) have an easier job and greater incentive to do their job in an environment where they're both dethroning their local Football God AND preserving the program.

If you kill PSU football, you punish a community for having its priorities so out of whack that it empowered the people directly involved to do what they did, and, from there forward, stupidly defensive fanbases/communities ("Leave Pete/Jim/Joe alone!!!") have a lot more reason to step back and recognize that one man isn't more important than an entire program (let alone a bevy of assfuckable children, whom we really don't care as much about because they're considerably less entertaining to watch on Saturdays) and open their minds to the remote possibility that someone alleging improper conduct might be motivated by something other than a desire to hurt their beloved football team...since OMIGOSH! remember the Alajoe! this might just save our football team!

If all you do is punish the people directly involved, you're doing very little to eliminate the possibility of something like it ever happening again.

Where ^ misses the point is that the community is already punishing itself. Knowing their role in this isn't something that is going to ever or easily be forgotten.

It's not I know a guy, it's a few people, very close and very tied in are telling me (and told me beforehand) the reaction and how it is going to grow and evolve within the Community.

Letting a seemingly squeeky clean guy like Joe Pa grow to what he did sure was delusional, just like it is in every single football town. But it's not like that Community had any idea 5 guys were hiding an America Horror Story.

If you take your course of action then the entirety of big time college football should be erased.

And in killing football you cost 1,000s their jobs, you cost tons and tons of female athletes their scholarships, you cost the school tons and tons of money used to fund education, as they are most probably out of the B1G....

Big Picture is a whole lot different than "neener, neener, you can't play football anymore!!!"

And stop fucking telling me the community won't learn their lesson and will keep on running around in denial. Pretending like that is a fact is the single dumbest fucking reason to kill an institution I have ever seen.

The community, by all accounts (FUCK, GO READ THE WETZEL ARTICLE I PUT IN THIS THREAD) is CRUSHED. Rallying for Joe Pa was a long time ago. Sure some people were trying to cling to saving part of his legacy and what not, but something tells me that is about to die as well. There is no more denial or legacy, it's deader than him.

Last edited by e0y2e3 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not advocating the elimination of PSU football. I'm advocating the elimination of PSU athletics. They reaped the benefits of the JoePa way for decades and the way he was allowed to conduct business at PSU allowed the American Horror Story to happen.

I'm sorry, the community lost the right to punish itself and it is absolutely stupid to allow them to rally around their football team on a go-forward basis and to use it to "heal", like we all know they will do. Unofficially, "loyalty" to their beloved institution and football team will cause them to publicly condemn the actions of their ENTIRE LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE (to say it was just 5 guys minimizes the fact that those 5 guys were basically in charge of the whole school for all practical purposes) and cling more steadfastly than ever to their traditions and their Saturdays.

You're pretty fucking delusional. You cannot extrapolate the actions of five (no matter how stupidly strong they were made) onto literally thousands. Again, to follow what you and DooDoo are talking about and eliminate this stupidity means eliminating all athletics in the country, period.

I also think you should start being held accountable for all crimes your co-workers and neighbors committ. I mean had you been more active in mornitoring the behavior of those around you (EVEN IF THEY HAD PERFECT REPUATIONS, TO SUCH A DEGREE NIKE NAMED THEIR CHILDREN'S CENTER AFTER THEM).

e0y2e3 wrote:Where ^ misses the point is that the community is already punishing itself. Knowing their role in this isn't something that is going to ever or easily be forgotten.

A rare instance, then, where I'm apparently more cynical than you are. Maybe what you say is true for the people you're talking to, but mouthbreathers are mouthbreathers, and I'm skeptical that giving the mouthbreathers anything less of a precedent than "They could take away your footballz! They did it before!" means they're going to be any less likely to be threatening & pressuring future whistleblowers than they were before.

And even if your--IMO highly unlikely--impression of the present & future of the PSU community is accurate, what does that do for, say, Tuscaloosa? In 5 years & 2 championships from now, does a janitor witnessing Nick Saban anally raping a young boy/something else equally appalling behave any differently than the janitor at PSU did? If so, why? Besides the guy being exceptionally brave and not minding the possibility of being lynched by a bunch of rednecks?

e0y2e3 wrote:Big Picture is a whole lot different than "neener, neener, you can't play football anymore!!!"

My big picture is that PSU F'd up about as badly as I can imagine any school F'ing anything up. For that, IMO PSU should receive--even if not everyone there deserves--the most extreme punishment available, because deterrence is worth it.

Then kill all football, because football is the ultimate cause here, not any one community or any one person. Every six months now we find a new cover-up of some sort, we have people shooting people, we have running-backs with guns.

If you want to take the moral high ground don't punish literally thousands and thousands while letting others skate, punish them all.

In your cynical world making an example of PSU does nothign to change mouth-breathers in Alabama, BTW.

Just because only 5 of them have committed criminal conduct doesn't mean that they were the only ones with culpability. The community entrusted its institution and athletic department to those people and if not a single one of them had the presence of mind to do anything about it, they get what they get.

This went past the football team, past the athletic department, past campus police, past the board of trustees, etc., etc. The athletic department deserves the death penalty and I'm not even comparing that punishment to other institutions. The death penalty has been used for point-shaving (UK basketball), academic fraud (SW Louisiana), payments to players (SMU), knowing use of professional players (Morehouse) and use of athletic scholarships by a D-III school (MacMurray).

PSU deserves it for the use of campus facilities to allow a tenured staff member to repeatedly commit sexual offenses against minor children left in the institution's care. Far worse than anything else, and it didn't take a large network of school employees to accomplish those other infractions. Far less, in fact, than was necessary for PSU to keep this issue under wraps for so long.

That isn't the fucking point. Coach K did the same. Knight the same. Hundreds over others have as well, Joe Pa wasn't just revered by one community, he was viewed nationally as the TRUE leader and grower of men and community.

To act like, well you lived in Happy Valley, fuck you!!!! is the answer to this problem is childish in the truest sense.

Not that I agree with the point at all but, Happy Valley's existence and happiness is determined solely by the existence and success of Penn State athletics? That's ridiculously overstating the "importance" of PSU football and PSU athletics in general. If all those people have going for them is the immediate success of the college sports teams in their town, then just give them all rope to hang themselves since there is no real point to their living any longer.

e0y2e3 wrote:because football is the ultimate cause here, not any one community or any one person.

I agree with that.

But punishment & deterrence can operate independently.

Are the people in the PSU community guilty of anything that people in the OSU/Bama/USC/etc communities aren't also guilty of?

No.

The result?

Yyyyyyeah.

e0y2e3 wrote:In your cynical world making an example of PSU does nothign to change mouth-breathers in Alabama, BTW.

Maybe so. I'd like to think that killing PSU football would decrease the likelihood of people looking the other way and their readiness for denial and the kind of pressure that surrounds whistleblowers. Maybe it wouldn't. Shrug.

CP wrote:Not that I agree with the point at all but, Happy Valley's existence and happiness is determined solely by the existence and success of Penn State athletics? That's ridiculously overstating the "importance" of PSU football and PSU athletics in general. If all those people have going for them is the immediate success of the college sports teams in their town, then just give them all rope to hang themselves since there is no real point to their living any longer.

e0y2e3 wrote:And stop fucking telling me the community won't learn their lesson and will keep on running around in denial. Pretending like that is a fact is the single dumbest fucking reason to kill an institution I have ever seen.

The community, by all accounts (FUCK, GO READ THE WETZEL ARTICLE I PUT IN THIS THREAD) is CRUSHED. Rallying for Joe Pa was a long time ago. Sure some people were trying to cling to saving part of his legacy and what not, but something tells me that is about to die as well. There is no more denial or legacy, it's deader than him.

I just read the vox populi. I listen to the comments by State Perve fans I know. I don't spin. Read the first comment.

I think there are two premises that those who want the NCAA to take action believe are true.

1) PSU and the Happy Value community bear some blame for the whole sordid affair and they have not/are not going to be punished enough for that blame absent NCAA intervention.

2) That SMU, OSU, USC and many others have suffered far more at the hands of the NCAA for far less.

I think that if either premise is true that the NCAA should intervene. However I believe that both are not true.

As for the first, I think that the community will or has already begun to see their part in this. JoePa legacy is done; his legend is tainted so badly that the school will try to forget him. For a while people will keep defending him. But wait for the lawsuits that will cripple the school. The lawsuits will come and PSU will pay out millions. Tens of millions. Even PSU can't afford that. The entire community will see job losses, wage reductions and a hugely lessened prestige. They will all suffer tremendously in a town that IS PSU economically. I don't know how much more you can punish a community than to take away their legendary hero, turn him into a monster and then crush the economy of that community. That's more than enough punishment for a community that will understand their part in all this before the end.

As for the second, Penn State is dead. It's done as a football powerhouse. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding ourselves. They are, at best, 4-7th in the Big Ten for 20 years. The Rose Bowl won't touch them, nor will any other major bowl. And that's with good recruiting and good coaching. NCAA sanctions will just add salt to the wound without actually punishing the people involved in any additional way. Additionally, the NCAA has questionable jurisdiction here and while you can make the argument that this was football related, you can just as easily argue the other side. And finally, I believe that NCAA penalties were perhaps inappropriate in those previous cases where they punished the wrong people, as I've discussed. I'm not interested in cutting off someone's hand merely because that's always been the punishment for theft. That's just vindictive thuggery and I'll take no part in it.

That said, there may be specific targeted penalties that the NCAA could hand down that would be valuable. I know almost nothing of NCAA bylaws, but I imagine that there is a way to basically ask for NCAA money back from the school as a way to acknowledge that money given the PSU that was spend to cover up child sexual assault was probably not money PSU should have had.

But to further destroy PSU athletics? Well that just seems vindictive to me and pointless.

e0y2e3 wrote:Like I said, go read the Wetzel article I linked in this thread. Go read an account from someone that spent weeks there.

I did. You seem to think his POV is that of Matt, Luke, Mark & John.

The institution cancelling fb on its own for a season isnt an outrageous concept. Nor is the Big 10 making a statement that it does indeed constitute ideals larger than athletics. You seem dug in to the point where any suggestion of real accountability that includes culture rather than individuals is a personal crusade. Imthinking Emmert isn't as inculcated in that absolute position from what I read.

OTOh I'm actually in some accord with you that ifthis were say, the college of business, the reaction owuldn't be the same.

bac5665 wrote:As for the first, I think that the community will or has already begun to see their part in this. JoePa legacy is done; his legend is tainted so badly that the school will try to forget him. For a while people will keep defending him.

e0y2e3 wrote:Like I said, go read the Wetzel article I linked in this thread. Go read an account from someone that spent weeks there.

I did. You seem to think his POV is that of Matt, Luke, Mark & John.

His POV is shared by every single person that spent time there and everyone I know connected there. It's by no means a universal belief yet, but this is more an inner-battle than a refusal to look at anything. It's an internal emotional destruction, not a reverence.

bac5665 wrote:As for the first, I think that the community will or has already begun to see their part in this. JoePa legacy is done; his legend is tainted so badly that the school will try to forget him. For a while people will keep defending him.

Wake me up when his statue goes the way of Saddams.

Not holding my breath.

I have to believe the statue and the name on the library are changed, no? At the very least? You can't remove the guy from the collective hearts and minds of the people there but surely you can change that, so that every single recruit and prospective student 10 years from now doesn't say, "Hey, isn't that the guy who.....?"

e0y2e3 wrote:Like I said, go read the Wetzel article I linked in this thread. Go read an account from someone that spent weeks there.

I did. You seem to think his POV is that of Matt, Luke, Mark & John.

His POV is shared by every single person that spent time there and everyone I know connected there. It's by no means a universal belief yet, but this is more an inner-battle than a refusal to look at anything. It's an internal emotional destruction, not a reverence.

I'm in the middle of yours and JB's position, but it's a reverance. One of my better friends and his wife/dad, family graduated from PSU.

IMO, it was a reverence, now it's "what the fuck was a revering" or pure denial and that denial is born from internal pause. These people are less tied up in Joe Pa than they are struggling to give up a belief that was a part of their core framework. Things like that are hard to accept.

bac5665 wrote:As for the first, I think that the community will or has already begun to see their part in this. JoePa legacy is done; his legend is tainted so badly that the school will try to forget him. For a while people will keep defending him.

Wake me up when his statue goes the way of Saddams.

Not holding my breath.

We'll see what happens.

Little will change until the lawsuits start. But they will come and when they do, they'll bring multimillion dollar settlements and parents who want JoePa's memory to be pounded into the mud. That's when the statue comes down, I would guess.

But you're right that this can still go a lot of different ways before it's over.

I said this on twitter as well, but beyond the headline grabbers about Joe and the Admin, the huge pay-off in 1999- under those circumstances in particular-, begs the question, "What were they paying Sandusky to keep quiet about?"

e0y2e3 wrote:Also, the Buckeye fans running around screaming "NEENER, NEENER, SERVES YOU RIGHT FOR MAKING FUN OF TATGATE!!#%!" or "WHAT RECRUITS CAN WE STEAL!@#%$!!!???" should all be shot.

I agree. This is what I posted on BN earlier...

Its amazing how spelled out and unambiguous this ended up being.

The 1998 retirement, the 2001 incident, who knew and and how much did they know, its all there.

Its a little wierd to see some people essentially pointing and going "haha" like Nelson from the simpsons. This is really messed up, and far beyond a reason to taunt fans of another team. Sometimes pointing out truths to someone in denial isnt so gratifying.

This is one of those times. Nothing gratifying about finding out that Joe Pa and the rest all knew and covered up.

Would have been a far better result for everyone if the findings were that they (truly) did not.

This is the worst outcome possible.

Although full disclosure- I did make a crack this morning something like "at least there were no rigged raffles involved"

Statements by and about Joe Paterno regarding Jerry Sandusky's sexual abuse of children:

1998 SHOWER COMPLAINT, ACCORDING TO PATERNO

In January 2011, Paterno testified before a Pennsylvania grand jury about whether he knew of inappropriate conduct by Sandusky with young boys, beyond a 2001 shower incident reported to him by his assistant coach Mike McQueary. His answer to the grand jury: "I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it."

Weeks before his death in January, The Washington Post asked Paterno whether he knew of a 1998 investigation triggered when a woman complained Sandusky had showered with her son. Paterno replied: "It wasn't like it was something everybody in the building knew about. Nobody knew about it."

1998 SHOWER COMPLAINT, ACCORDING TO THE FREEH REPORT

Tim Curley and Gary Schultz exchanged emails in May 1998. One, with the subject line "Joe Paterno," read: "I have touched base with the coach. Keep us posted." Another read: "Anything new in this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands."

___

2001 MCQUEARY REPORT, ACCORDING TO PATERNO

Before the grand jury, Paterno was asked if the 2001 McQueary report was relayed to any other university officials. His response: "No, because I figured that Tim would handle it appropriately. ... I thought he would look into it and handle it appropriately."

After his death, the Paterno family issued a written statement by Paterno that said he contacted Curley the day after speaking to McQueary. The statement read: "That was the last time the matter was brought to my attention until this investigation and I assumed that the men I referred it to handled the matter appropriately."

In January, shortly before died, the Post asked Paterno why didn't follow up more aggressively in 2001. Paterno said: "I didn't know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was. So I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did."

2001 MCQUEARY REPORT, ACCORDING TO THE FREEH REPORT

Curley wrote an email to Schultz on Feb. 27, 2001, discussing contacting authorities. Curley wrote: "After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday — I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps."

I have made my opinions about the NCAA and its uselessness as an organization well known. I also despise the current "student-athlete" facade in college sports. I love the tradition and pagentry of NCAAF, it is truly like nothing else.

That said, PSU's value system (from the BOT to the Pres to the VPs to the AD to the HC to the QB coach to the janitors) was rotten. The entire place completely lost its sense of right and wrong and it happened because football was bigger than the institution. PSU meets the textbook definition of a LOIC, but I don't think the NCAA should take action.

Penn State should take action and cancel the 2012 football season... now, and the NCAA should take this as its pound of flesh. The rotten apples are gone, the place has been "de-nazified" the school should sanction itself hard and do it now to make this go away. Waiting to be punished puts the NCAA in an awkward situation (where it has to look at its rules and figure out how to apply them) it also makes it seem like PSU does not feel like they have done wrong. Cancelling immediately shows the right level of contrition and it could be spun that the school wants to take the year to make sure it gets itself right. It also provides the benefit of getting this over NOW. Throw in some additional measures for future monitoring, token probation, NO SCHOLLIE REDUCTIONS, NO FINES... just a year to get your shit together.

That strong statement tells the nation that PSU is truly out ahead of this and could be spun from goats to guys who are above the football and looking at the greater good. You really cannot give a school a bowl ban for turning their backs on the Ticklemonster and leaving him to make more victims.... it is insulting because it somehow insinuates that the penalty is in line with the crime.

PSU should just jump on the grenade and put this behind them while trying to turn the tide of this thing. In return the NCAA should accept it (immediately) and let PSU players that want to transfer out to other schools. They could also provide a one year schollie exception to schools that take the refugees. This is a mess and it is a time where the school and the association need to team up and fix it.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

The school will be fine in the long run sure. But it will hurt in the short run.

And I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the lawsuit ammounts aren't astronomical.

Spanier, Paterno et al covered up and facilitated child rape. Even if they wanted to cover the scandal up, failing to tell Sandusky to take a hike and banish him from the campus is so egregious that I honestly think that the DA may bring child molestation charges on count of accessory to the crime for the 4 or 5 officials involved here. Especially after 2001, there was something so close to conspiracy to aid and abet rape that it frightens me.

The lawsuits are going to hurt. They will be record breaking. This is a record breaking case.

furls wrote:Penn State should take action and cancel the 2012 football season... now, and the NCAA should take this as its pound of flesh.

Hey!! I have non-refundable two nights hotel stay for the Buckeye-Penn State game the weekend of Oct 27th. Those rooms are $499/night divided by the four people going.

And that's a Hilton Garden Inn fer crissakes. There are rooms at a Hampton for $600 per night and you have to book the entire weekend.

Did I mention they're non refundable?Well, they're non-refundable.

There should be no cancellation this season.

That'$ exactly why there will be no cancellation this $ea$on.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

I guess at this point I'm somewhere in the middle of JB and eoys positions. my initial reaction was for the football death penalty, but...hell How can anyone know what the "right thing to do" is?

I will say this. On one hand, doing nothing; having no NCAA penalty isn't really sitting well. But on the other hand, how can any penalty be imposed other than the death penalty? Doesn't "We are reducing football scholarships by 5 each season for the next 5 seasons" sound ridiculous?

It feels like it would have to be death or nothing. Anything in between is just...I don't know what.