I think this kinda stuff will happen more and more as our society careens down the path of "Do whatever you want to." This is certainly not the first time I've heard of such happenings, and the article backs that up. A woman wants a baby, feels she should have a baby. To her, not so different from the folks who rip off other people's cars and jewelry.

Not that I agree with her.

The weird part, to me, was:

Investigators were also awaiting details from the autopsy and other tests to determine whether the baby might have breathed even once before he died. If he did, Roberts can also be charged in his killing.

Because it was a wanted baby. So if it's wanted - by at least two women so far - seems like it would be manslaughter or wrongful death or some other legalese for "Honest, Officer, I didn't mean to hurt the kid." Or some states you can file abuse of a corpse even if she mangled Junior before she got him out.

Not that I understand any of this mess.

[Edited on 10/6/09 by Elfdame]

"Humanity is a parade of fools, and I am at the front of it, twirling a baton." From Chapter 9 of _Brother Odd_ by Dean Koontz / from Chapter 10: "Life you can evade; death you cannot."

If this happened in California, it wouldn't have mattered if the baby lived after being delivered. A killer can be convicted of double murder for killing a pregnant woman and her child. However, if there was a demonstrated intent to not harm the child (beyond, well, depriving him of his mother), that would reduce one murder charge to manslaughter.

If the baby died, then the baby must have at some point lived, whether or not he ever breathed air, and if he died as a result of being forcibly removed from his mother, then the woman who did it should be held accountable for his death. Justice really can be that simple.

Honestly, I think basing whether or not the baby's death is prosecuted and how on whether or not the baby took a breath of air is ludicrous and makes the case unnecessarily complicated, considering how frequently babies (especially born by C-Section) need their lungs suctioned out before they can take a full breath of air. (Does that mean my son wasn't alive for those few minutes after he was born? He tried to breath but couldn't until his lungs were suctioned.)

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

I think this kinda stuff will happen more and more as our society careens down the path of "Do whatever you want to."

I do not feel this is the situation that our society is going down at all. As you can see there are plenty of people horrified and even disgusted with this, and I'm sure their ratio greatly exceeds those who are neither moved nor bothered (dare I say entertained) by this happening.

I think this kinda stuff will happen more and more as our society careens down the path of "Do whatever you want to."

There have been crazy people around forever. I'd put it up more to a lack of education and problem-solving skills. If you want to steal a baby, there have to be easier ways than trolling for pregnant ladies online so you can kill them and cut out their fetuses. The nation's schools have let us down.

I actually chock it up to the ridiculous and seemingly more acceptable notion these days that babies are cute little living items of property to be had (or stolen) if wanted, or tossed out if not.

If we hammered it more into people's heads that babies and their mothers are people whose rights to live are more important than anyone else's right to have a cute little living baby doll, this wouldn't happen as often.

On the other hand, people have killed over stuff much less important than babies: sex, Raiders jackets, just because.

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

I actually chock it up to the ridiculous and seemingly more acceptable notion these days that babies are cute little living items of property to be had (or stolen) if wanted, or tossed out if not.

If we hammered it more into people's heads that babies and their mothers are people whose rights to live are more important than anyone else's right to have a cute little living baby doll, this wouldn't happen as often.

On the other hand, people have killed over stuff much less important than babies: sex, Raiders jackets, just because.

LOL or there might just be a legit psychological disorder this woman could have had? Had she had a child herself and lost it? Postpartum Depression

I don't think post-partum depression or psychosis is the reason women kill other women and steal babies. Women with PPD tend to actually feel overwhelmed by taking care of a baby rather than overwhelmed by the desire to kill for a baby.

I hope, if she's genuinely mentally ill, she's found incompetent to stand trial. Of course it wouldn't be fair to hold her accountable as if she were in full possession of all her marbles.

That being said, I still feel that the way society treats babies more like lifestyle accessories or, at best entitlements rather than human individuals enables behavior like this. If some people didn't feel entitled to have babies no matter if it costs other people their lives, this probably wouldn't happen. I don't deny that its nuts. But what are we doing as a society that reinforces or refutes this sense of entitlement (as opposed to responsibility) too many adults have over the lives of children?

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

Angelique wrote:I hope, if she's genuinely mentally ill, she's found incompetent to stand trial. Of course it wouldn't be fair to hold her accountable as if she were in full possession of all her marbles.

You really think that plotting to cut a fetus out of someone is possible for someone who has all their marbles?

That kind of "evil" you speak of stems greatly from mental illness, such as insanity of varying degrees, such as depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, personality disorders, etc...

Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, all of them have, inarguably, some kind of early mental illness be it stemming from abuse or delusional rationalizations of grandeur stemming from young insecurities.

Psychosis is a simple thing and can result in very convoluted consequences.

Ah, but not everyone who willingly cooperated with Hitler, et cetera was mentally ill. It's not easy to accept that someone can do something so horrific and yet be perfectly sane, but that is nonetheless reality.

It's precisely why we have competency hearings and the whole purpose of having prisons as well as mental hospitals. Many people know right from wrong, are mentally competent, and still nevertheless choose to do wrong.

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

"The work offered by organized crime must have some sort of attraction to the insane."

Not all of Germany thought Hitler was fantastic y'know, but he did use his "charm" and presence on stage/at the mic, to dupe an entire nation. Believe it or not, when you're insane you don't just rip babies out of people. Sometimes you act perfectly normal until... y'know...

*snap*Also, you have to seem a strange definition of what prisons are meant for here in the U.S.. They're for incarceration and reform. Your sentence is to match your crime, (being that it is punishment based on a "fair and balanced system") you spend time there, and when you get out you should be reformed. If a jury of your peers feels there is no possible way for reform for your crime, you are incarcerated for life. If your jury feels your crime is so heinous you deserve to die for it, apparently we get to kill you.

Ain't it great??Hell look at it this! The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate as of year-end 2007, a record 7.2 million people were behind bars, on probation or on parole.

Psychiatric hospitals Hospitals are meant to keep mentally ill people safe and away from other people who they can hurt, (provided they have been involuntarily checked in--all hospitals have varying degrees of tactics and goals) and to provide a place to assist them and care for them, and the ultimate goal is to eventually get them to a point where they can handle society (though often it's misconstrued as "a point where society can handle them").This is to say: A psychiatric hospital is a hospital specializing in the treatment of serious mental illness, usually for relatively long-term inpatients. (-Wikipedia)

That said:Do I think this woman deserves jail time??... Yes.Do I think she has disorders and should be in a mental hospital.Yes.

Ah, but the procedures for dealing with people who commit crimes due to mental illness is completely different from the ways we deal with mentally competent criminals. Many mentally ill people who commit crimes are never actually punished for the crimes because it wouldn't be just to hold them accountable for a crime as if they knew it was wrong and willingly did it anyway and it would be cruel to subject them to trial, conviction, and incarceration instead of hospitalization.

There is even a whole legal defense based on mental incompetence for a reason. If the woman committed the crime because she's mentally ill, she deserves to be committed and treated for her illness, not held accountable for a crime that (depending on the illness and how far gone she is) she may not have even known she committed.

If she knew what she was doing, knew it was wrong, and went ahead with it anyway, that's a completely different story. Then we can throw the book at her.

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

Either way, the American Constitution says they have the right to a lawyer, so she can give herself a chance to justify her clearly illogical thinking, and maybe her only validation will be an insanity plea. If this is the case, it doesn't make it any less of a shame, but I can't for one minute think that someone who did something like this isn't insane, I mean you sort of have to be. Natural, common, human born sense/instincts say: "Not only is this wrong but... eiw".

Ult_Sm86 wrote:If this is the case, it doesn't make it any less of a shame, but I can't for one minute think that someone who did something like this isn't insane, I mean you sort of have to be. Natural, common, human born sense/instincts say: "Not only is this wrong but... eiw".

So are you suggesting that a person could have just said "hey I'm gonna rip this lady's baby from her tummy 'cuz it seems like a great idea! I'm that sick and twisted"... and you think there's no mental concern there?

Not at all, and I don't appreciate your straw man. I was simply taking advantage of an opportunity to be snide that was practically a gimme.

Personally, I think "evil" is the natural human condition, but I have, if at all possible, even less to back up that opinion than you have to back up yours. When you postulate that every act of "evil" stems from a psychological disorder or from psychosis, I think it goes without saying that you're stretching the definition of psychosis in a way that no scientist would ever accept. When you use words like inarguably, you make yourself look extremely foolish.

Now I wouldn't go that far. Evil is not necessarily the natural human condition- just one of a number of natural human conditions. Otherwise, I agree.

Actions are not the sole indicator of one's psychiatric condition. Most people with mental illness, in fact, tend not to do any more evil than anyone in good mental health. Most people convicted of crimes are mentally competent.

[Edited on 13/6/2009 by Angelique]

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

Personally, I think "evil" is the natural human condition, but I have, if at all possible, even less to back up that opinion than you have to back up yours. When you postulate that every act of "evil" stems from a psychological disorder or from psychosis, I think it goes without saying that you're stretching the definition of psychosis in a way that no scientist would ever accept. When you use words like inarguably, you make yourself look extremely foolish.

What I am inferring simply, HM, is that any of the people in history who we attribute evil to, be it Hitler, Manson Family, etc..., we can usually discover they have anything from a minor to a very major psychosis.

Now, does this mean all people who are mentally ill are evil? No. In fact, we have good reason to believe that Abraham Lincoln had minor mental issues, as did some of our other favorite "good" people in history.

I just find it astounding that through this entire conversation I've been the only one who believes 'good' is the natural human condition. (Me being Mr. Pessimistic Atheist and all).

And by no means am I going to try to force you to "explain" yourself on your opinion, an opinion is an opinion and these kinds are rather hard to prove.

For clarification; I do take the straw man comment to heart being that this conversation is about the woman who got her baby ripped out of her by another woman, and you did infer that what I said--a natural instinct of a human would be to not do this-- was poor common sense, or rather, that common sense was fallible in this situation. To me, that is no Straw Man, however to pursue a silly argument such as whether it was or wasn't, is.

Okay...I'mma gonna wade in here for good or bad, with all this bullshit about good/evil being natural states.

My stance? Human beings are amoral to begin with.

Neutral, in other words. Blank slates. We all have choices. If we know doing something (ie. genocide, rape, etc) is Bad, we have the choice to be 'good' and not do it, or 'bad' and commit that genocide, rape that guy, that kinda thing.

If you don't know the difference (say, you'd been bought up to think that rape was A-Okay) then that's a different kettle of fish. If a child's seen his dad hit his mum his entire life, well, why should he think that him hitting a little girl at school/his girlfriend is bad?

I say this because in its most basic meaning, I've met 'good' and 'evil' people in my life. And you know what, sometimes they've turned out to be the same person. Hitler destroyed thousands if not millions of lives, but he was still capable of love. Human, in other words.

And then you get people like my dad. Now, not many people on the board know the exact reasons why I never talk about my dad, and I'm not going to go into details here. He's in prison, now, and will probably (hopefully) die there. Why hopefully? Because that man is the embodiment of evil. He knew full well that what he was doing was wrong. If anything, it was the thrill of it being wrong that got him. And believe me, what he did? Was so wrong that it requires a thread all of its own. Now, I'm not saying that he wasn't a mental health case, because it's obvious there's something not quite right there, but to relish in what he did, even be almost...proud of it, that's what I define as evil. If he had some remorse, then yes, that would make him human and maybe I could find it in me to (eventually) forgive him.

Then you look at my mum. She was a heroin addict, a prostitute and aided and abetted my dad in some things. She didn't do anything to stop him, neglected her child, etc etc, you get the picture. You read about women like her every now and again, and usually shake your head in disgust and wonder how people are allowed to do that. 'Child killers' are what they're usually labled as, because unfortunately, that's what usually happens.

She was the main witness in putting my dad away. After that, she came to me, apologising for everything she couldn't do. And you know what? I forgave her, right there on the spot, because she was genuinely sorry and had done everything in her power to fix it. Obviously at the end of the day she couldn't take back what had happened, but damnit, she did her best to make it hurt less. That's what I'd define as good.

And to be fair, for a woman to do that to another woman (referring to the original topic in this thread would say to me 'OMG nutcase' but still. In relation to good/evil, is she really evil? Did she enjoy killing the woman? Did she know what she was doing was wrong? Did she believe, as Hitler believed, as one million different terroist cells believe, that she was right?

And that's my simple, uneducated and crappy opinion.

Also, on a sidenote, Bman. Those mental issues you listed. Not to put too fine a point on it, but...ah...I've been diagnosed with a fair few of them. Add in a nice, healthy dollop of PTSD and you've got a happy little psycho sitting right here typing this. So lumping us 'personality disorders' together in the realms of the murderers is a little, um. Insulting. Generalisations are a bitch, right?

I am NOT 'evil' just because I happen to have Borderline Personality Disorder, Antisocial, PTSD and oh, yes, possibility of developing paranoid bloody schizophrenia. I may just haul of and smack someone for making idiotic statements, but I am not about to kill someone for their child 'just because'. Mental health =/= evil bastard, and I get really, REALLY sick of people lumping us together like that.

Well first I sincerely apologize if you feel any of those was a generalization towards you or anyone with mental illnesses.

The ones you mentioned, similar to the ones I mentioned, were just vague possible reasoning behind why a woman would do what this woman has done. They were in no way mean to say "People with this do this thing!" but I don't believe at all that this woman is "evil" and has a cognitive understanding of "good" or "bad" choices, or even "violence" versus "well not violence".

What I am saying is, there is no way this lady doesn't have something wrong with her, and I was only listing the ones I knew that could relate to what she had done.Do I think you'll go do this now that you have (very bravely might I add) told us some of these examples apply to you? HELL no.As I said before, we believe Lincoln had personality disorders. Deep depression even. I still respect him, he didn't go around popping babies out of people.

Besides the topic is "some people really are Insane" and let's face it... you have to be insane to do what this woman did. I never meant to make you feel out of place, should this be how you felt, I was merely trying to get to the bottom of where Ange was coming from.

I also want to point out that my argument this entire time has been to separate this perception of "evil deeds" from mental crises that people have, and at no point did I say that people with mental diseases are evil. Furthermore; in no way is anyone who has mental problems evil. I happen to think, as stated before, evil is a matter of strict opinion, and though I believe things done in the Holocaust were evil, I'm sure the Nazis would beg to differ.

What I am inferring simply, HM, is that any of the people in history who we attribute evil to, be it Hitler, Manson Family, etc..., we can usually discover they have anything from a minor to a very major psychosis.

You can argue that I'm lumping it together if you would like, but it is inarguable that Manson Family, Son of Sam, and Hitler had various psychological disorders. And though we enjoy saying "just because you don't bow to the social practice of normality, doesn't make you insane", we can safely say if you rip babies from another woman's belly.... you got something going on.

Also, I politely ask you to refrain from putting words in my mouth Scumfish.

So lumping us 'personality disorders' together in the realms of the murderers is a little, um. Insulting. Generalisations are a bitch, right?

I am NOT 'evil' just because I happen to have Borderline Personality Disorder, Antisocial, PTSD and oh, yes, possibility of developing paranoid bloody schizophrenia. I may just haul of and smack someone for making idiotic statements, but I am not about to kill someone for their child 'just because'. Mental health =/= evil bastard, and I get really, REALLY sick of people lumping us together like that.

I in no way implied this in any of my posts, and if this is what you took from it, then I am sorry you read it that way. I ask that you either go back and re-read them, or shake this attitude that you think I have from your mind, for this is beyond inaccurate, it's actually insulting.

As for re-reading it...not to turn this into an argument, but you need to look at how you word things, dude. Because I'm still getting that generalisation feel. Maybe I'm a little more sensitive as yes, I do get those generalisations (sadly) but it still kinda smacks of it.

Also, that was a generic rant about it. My bad if it came out as a personal attack. I'm just tired of being compared to people who...well, do cut babies out of women just because I share a similar disorder. Because yes, I agree she may have something wrong with her, I don't think that that was what caused it.

Speaking as someone with a crazy head, I will say that I can totally understand that crazy heads make people do really odd things for no discernable reason. I will add another one to Bman's list. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

Being stuck in your own thoughts can make you do/say/think some crazy shit. Doesn't make you evil, just means you gotta know the difference between the illness and the real thinking.

But still, nothing excuses what the lady did. If she's ill then I hope she gets the help she needs then if she's sorry fair enough. If there's no remorse... seriously, then prison is the best place for her.

Quicksilver: Howisshe?Isshealright?Imusetspeakwithmysisteratonce.Hawkeye: What is that noise?IronMan: That is the noise Pietro makes right before he's tossed out of the airlock. ~ Avengers: The Children's Crusade #6