You have to admit though that generally speaking when Ron wasn't around for a longish period of time Harry and Hermione didn't seem to get along that well. I mean they didn't fight as such but they didn't have fun either. How long can a friendship last without any fun in it?

I do think that Harry and Hermione needed Ron to keep their friendship going long term.

No doubt the presence of the Horcrux locket (which Harry and Hermione continued to wear) was putting a damper on them having 'fun' while Ron was away. And they were both missing Ron too.

It wasn't just the locket. Harry was bored when he had to spend a lot of time with Hermione in GoF as well (and there was no locket influencing either of them then).

Ron's refusal to believe Harry was eating away at Harry, and his mood would have been dour and impatient as a result. Ron was hurt by what he mistakenly thought was a betrayal by Harry of entering the tournament secretly. Neither Ron nor Harry were receptive to Hermione's efforts to bring them back together. Ron needed to figure this out on his own for the relationship to return to normal. I think it's a mistake to read this as a problem in the relationship between Harry & Hermione. Ron was the key here, and he wasn't budging, until he realized that one could, indeed, die in the tournament.

__________________People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff...

I believe that their's enough evidence throughout the series that demonstrates that the trio was kept together because of their love, friendship and great difference between each and every single one of them. Not one more person was more equal as the glue than the other.

Sure, Harry may not have enjoyed spending time in the library as much as Hermione did, but I think his overall mood wasn't helped by majority of the school hating him and bullying him. Ron not being his friend didn't help of course.

__________________“Hogwarts was the first and best home he had known. He and Voldemort and Snape, the abandoned boys, had all found home here. ”

Willow is an uncommon wand wood with healing power, and I have noted that the ideal owner for a willow wand often has some (usually unwarranted) insecurity, however well they may try and hide it. While many confident customers insist on trying a willow wand (attracted by their handsome appearance and well-founded reputation for enabling advanced, non-verbal magic) my willow wands have consistently selected those of greatest potential, rather than those who feel they have little to learn. It has always been a proverb in my family that he who has furthest to travel will go fastest with willow.

Unicorn hair generally produces the most consistent magic, and is least subject to fluctuations and blockages. Wands with unicorn cores are generally the most difficult to turn to the Dark Arts. They are the most faithful of all wands, and usually remain strongly attached to their first owner, irrespective of whether he or she was an accomplished witch or wizard.

Minor disadvantages of unicorn hair are that they do not make the most powerful wands (although the wand wood may compensate) and that they are prone to melancholy if seriously mishandled, meaning that the hair may ‘die’ and need replacing.

What is also interesting is that the only other person with a Willow wand in the known Harry Potter universe is "Lily Evans/Potter" and it is quite possible that Lily's wand also had a unicorn hair core in it as well. I never thought of Ron and Lily as being similar before but their wands are almost identical so that would imply on a deeper level Ron and Lily are quite similar. What does everyone else think?

What is also interesting is that the only other person with a Willow wand in the known Harry Potter universe is "Lily Evans/Potter" and it is quite possible that Lily's wand also had a unicorn hair core in it as well. I never thought of Ron and Lily as being similar before but their wands are almost identical so that would imply on a deeper level Ron and Lily are quite similar. What does everyone else think?

I went back in SS/PS, and while Ollivander names the wood/size for Lily's & James' wands (and Hagrid's as well), he doesn't mention the core for any of them. As Ollivander eventually went with only dragon heartstring, unicorn hair, and Phoenix feathers (very rare), I think you're right, that the unicorn core fits with Lily better than the dragon heartstring. Athough I'm not sure that means that Ron is similar to Lily in personality/nature; in fact I see some differences. Maybe it's something connected with Ron also being in Griffyndor? Ron also acquired that wand after 2nd year, so I think that has to be taken into account as well.

__________________People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff...

....I miss David Tennant....

Last edited by HedwigOwl; April 16th, 2012 at 6:27 am.
Reason: clarity

What is also interesting is that the only other person with a Willow wand in the known Harry Potter universe is "Lily Evans/Potter" and it is quite possible that Lily's wand also had a unicorn hair core in it as well. I never thought of Ron and Lily as being similar before but their wands are almost identical so that would imply on a deeper level Ron and Lily are quite similar. What does everyone else think?

Replied to in the Lily thread.

__________________

"I could have been in politics 'cause I've always been a big spender."

Actually, I agree with ShadowSonic and Darklordspal. Ron started off as one of the best caracters, in my opinion. In the first 2 books, especially,. In book 3 too, despite the fight with Hermione. From book 4 onwards, JKR seemed to deliberatey dumb him down and turn him into a semi-useless mild jerk, for whatever reason. Sure, he still had his share of inherent qualites, but most of the time it seemed like they were overshadowed by his flaws and mistakes. Sometimes, I feel that Ron was sacrificed to make other caracters (Ginny and Hermione, for exemple) look good. I don't think she needed to do that. It's rather diappointing. Although she did redeem him somewhat in book 7, there was still room for improvement.

I've also noticed that JKR often seems to amplify Ron's bad moments to minimize his good moments. It's probably part of the reason why there's still a lot of Ron-hate... On the other hand, she did the opposite with Hermione more often than not. Sadly, what most people remember from Ron in the last book is that he bailed on his friends. Even if he was perfectly brave for the vast majority of the book. JK never insisted too much on Ron's brave actions and therefore, many people hardly even remember them. The most blatant exemple that comes to my mind is when Ron takes charge while Harry is being obsessed with the hallows. That was a defining moment for Ron. It showed that he had clearly come a long way. But for some reason, that part is usually overlooked by readers. Most people don't even remember that Ron actually took the leadership role. Because JK didn't put much emphasis on it, while she did insist a lot on Ron's immaturity when he was whining about the lack of progress earlier in the book. So, to the average reader, what stands out most is that Ron was being immature for a while, even if he greatly changed his attitude afterwards.

Another exemple that comes to my mind is when Ron says Voldemort's name early in the book. He actually says it 3 times (I think). But the way JK wrote it made it seem like it wasn't a big deal at all. Most readers probably didn't even notice that Ron said Voldemort's name. It should have been an important moment for Ron but instead, it went unnoticed. On the other hand, when Hermione says the name in book 5, it seemed like something brave and Harry himself took the time to appreciate it. So every reader remember that Hermione bravely said Voldemort's name.

So you see... JK was often less than charitable in the way she portrayed Ron from book 4 to book 7. He was, indeed, the «designated villain» among the good characters. Not just because of his actions, but also because of the way his actions were written and described. It's too bad because I do think that Ron had a pretty good potential as a character. He could have been just as appealing as Hermione or Neville if his author had portrayed him more fairly.

So you see... JK was often less than charitable in the way she portrayed Ron from book 4 to book 7. He was, indeed, the «designated villain» among the good characters. Not just because of his actions, but also because of the way his actions were written and described. It's too bad because I do think that Ron had a pretty good potential as a character. He could have been just as appealing as Hermione or Neville if his author had portrayed him more fairly.

I am in two minds about Ron. I never liked him as a character but I appreciate that JKR gave us a central 'good' character who was not stereotypically 'appealing'. Ron, I think, was the most flawed out of the trio but this made the trio as a whole more accessible, in my view.

Another exemple that comes to my mind is when Ron says Voldemort's name early in the book. He actually says it 3 times (I think). But the way JK wrote it made it seem like it wasn't a big deal at all. Most readers probably didn't even notice that Ron said Voldemort's name. It should have been an important moment for Ron but instead, it went unnoticed. On the other hand, when Hermione says the name in book 5, it seemed like something brave and Harry himself took the time to appreciate it. So every reader remember that Hermione bravely said Voldemort's name.

You're right, I hadn't noticed that Ron said Voldemort's name! I totally agree that this is one of the many instances where JKR shows her favoritism for her self-insert character, Hermione.

About the saying of Voldemort's name, I'd also like to add that it is expected of Ron to be more adherent of the habit of not saying Voldemort's name because he is the only one of the Trio who actually grew up in the WW. That fear of the name was instilled in him since birth - obviously it would be hard for him to let go of the habit. I actually found it surprising that, before OotP, Hermione was so scared of saying the name - it didn't make sense because she hadn't been raised with that fear drilled into her. Which is why I couldn't appreciate the apparent "bravery" she showed in OotP when she uttered the name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriath

I never liked him as a character but I appreciate that JKR gave us a central 'good' character who was not stereotypically 'appealing'.

I personally do find Ron "appealing". At least, I don't think he is any more unappealing than Harry or Hermione. His flaws, fears and insecurities, IMO, were very realistic and easy to sympathize with. His main flaw is his childishness which, being the second-youngest in his family, is expected. His main fear is of fading into the background which, for the same reason, is also expected. He is the most overshadowed member of the Weasley clan and, on top of that, his two best friends have both made niches for themselves whereas he hasn't. Harry is The Boy Who Lived and Gryffindor's Quidditch star. Hermione is the brightest witch in their year. Ron...he's either "another Weasley" or "Harry Potter's sidekick". Considering all this, I would have been surprised if he never showed any jealousy or insecurities. Therefore, I don't take his jealous stints in GoF and DH against him. On the contrary, I find it admirable how, both times, he has the guts and the integrity to go to Harry himself and apologize. The ability to recognize one's mistakes and apologize is, I think, vastly underrated - an ability which, I might point out, was hard for Hermione to skill.

"Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes. Slowly, it bowed its antlered head. And Harry realized..."Prongs..."
- Hermione's Secret, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

The sad thing is that for some reason the readers hold Ron's two bad acts (turning on Harry in GoF and DH) against him like that's all there is to him, and forget ALL the good things he did for Harry the rest of the series.

Like putting his life on the line by accompanying Harry on his adventures, when he didn't have to. Out of the 3 of them, Ron had the least reason to endanger himself and he also could've escaped the Death Eaters' Regime the easiest when they came to power because of his pure blood. But he DID endanger himself every year, and he DIDN'T use his pure blood as an escape, because Harry was more important.

And yet, this never occurs to anyone nor is it APPRECIATED by anyone. I don't even think Rowling realized it.

I am in two minds about Ron. I never liked him as a character but I appreciate that JKR gave us a central 'good' character who was not stereotypically 'appealing'. Ron, I think, was the most flawed out of the trio but this made the trio as a whole more accessible, in my view.

I personally think Harry is the most flawed of the Trio. Ron doesn't do as many unlikable stuff as Harry does, IMO. He doesn't use the dark arts, doesn't hurt anyone and as has been mentioned before, apologizies when he's being a prat. Harry and Hermione are both guilty of immoral actions while Ron isn't, IMO. All his insecurities are more or less justified and easy to relate to. I think he's the most relatable out of the Trio with Hermione being the least relatable and Harry being somewhere in between, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Like putting his life on the line by accompanying Harry on his adventures, when he didn't have to. Out of the 3 of them, Ron had the least reason to endanger himself and he also could've escaped the Death Eaters' Regime the easiest when they came to power because of his pure blood.

In all fairness though, Ron and his family were considered blood traitors and that pretty much puts them on the DE's hit list. Not to mention their proximity to Harry and Dumbledore.

Quote:

And yet, this never occurs to anyone nor is it APPRECIATED by anyone. I don't even think Rowling realized it.

I think many readers appreciate and like Ron. He is probably one of the most popular characters of the series. He was very brave and just as worthy of being a Gryffindor as Harry and Hermione.

Actually, I agree with ShadowSonic and Darklordspal. Ron started off as one of the best caracters, in my opinion. In the first 2 books, especially,. In book 3 too, despite the fight with Hermione. From book 4 onwards, JKR seemed to deliberatey dumb him down and turn him into a semi-useless mild jerk, for whatever reason. Sure, he still had his share of inherent qualites, but most of the time it seemed like they were overshadowed by his flaws and mistakes. Sometimes, I feel that Ron was sacrificed to make other caracters (Ginny and Hermione, for exemple) look good. I don't think she needed to do that. It's rather diappointing. Although she did redeem him somewhat in book 7, there was still room for improvement.

I've also noticed that JKR often seems to amplify Ron's bad moments to minimize his good moments. It's probably part of the reason why there's still a lot of Ron-hate...

IMO, this was sort of a writing trick JKR used to give Ron the best possible moment she could in DH. By beginning Ron's fall into insecurity in book 4, she then had three whole books in which to really drive home the fact that Ron is majorly insecure, he doesn't feel worthy of Hermione's love, he's caught in the middle in his friendship with Harry (torn between loyalty to a friend and jealousy that he gets all the attention) so that by the time we get to Ron's abandonment of the trio in DH it's shocking but totally believable. We understand his motivations without JKR having to spell out every reason he feels that way because we have come to know his character so well and understand why he feels the way he feels.

Once Ron finds his way back to Harry and Hermione, he sort of becomes the hero of the story. He is the one driving them forward in their quest for the horcruxes, he's the one who is motivated and taking charge, he's the one who knows where to send the captives in the Malfoy's cellar, he's the one who figures out how to destroy the cup of hufflepuff and speaks parseltongue to get back to the Chamber of Secrets... Personally, I think Ron could have been an even more important character and had an even bigger, grander redemption but since this was Harry's story I think JKR did a good job showing Ron earning his way back into our hearts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

So why couldn't she have done the same to Harry and Hermione? What made them so much more "worthy" of not being treated like that? It's totally unfair to Ron.

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I would have really loved to see a moment where Harry had to choose to continue down the path of good, that there was a bit of Slytherin in him that was tempted by the power of the Hallows and the wand after the Scarcrux was destroyed. I didn't like that he ended up being the pure character with nothing but good intentions and wasn't even the tinest bit seduced by the hallows in the end. I wanted to see a Luke Skywalker moment where he is confronted with the choice, is honestly temped and still turns away from the dark, evil or simple path. I wanted to see a (movie) Frodo moment where is seduced by the ring, he does choose the ring and circumstances lead to him losing the ring in the end anyway. Then again, I like my characters somewhat more flawed than Harry ever was or even approached being. I like the suspense of wondering if the character will in fact make the right choice, the good choice, the choice that all the previous books have been building up to. I like watching characters fall out of grace and then earn their way back through talent, hard work, charisma, belief in themselves, etc. Harry never really had a falling from grace moment for me. Hermione either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

The sad thing is that for some reason the readers hold Ron's two bad acts (turning on Harry in GoF and DH) against him like that's all there is to him, and forget ALL the good things he did for Harry the rest of the series.

To me the abandonment in GOF is a set up for the abandonment in DH. We as readers have to believe that Ron would do something like that, leave his best friends in the lurch out of spite, jealousy, anger. It also forshadowed DH in that he does return to them and that he grew in the intervening time between GOF and DH - in GOF he stays angry for weeks, months. In DH he regrets his decision to leave the moment he apparates away and he spends the next weeks and months trying to find his way back to them rather than trying to stay away from them.

__________________

"I could have been in politics 'cause I've always been a big spender."

That's the core of it. Ron is given these failings and "Redemption" moments while Harry and Hermione really aren't, ever. The closest thing Harry has is his "Do I want to come back to life?" moment in DH and that's not really hard to figure out.

The best way to have characters grow is to have them struggle with inner conflict and deal with consequences, not have them not have inner conflict.

Ron had inner conflict, Harry and Hermione do not and they're worse off for it.

And if the excuse is "This is Harry's story", then Rowling should've been willing to make this a multi-POV series where entire chapters would be from a different characters' POV so we'd know them as well as we know Harry.

Quote:

In all fairness though, Ron and his family were considered blood traitors and that pretty much puts them on the DE's hit list. Not to mention their proximity to Harry and Dumbledore.

If you don't oppose the DEs, they'd forgive you. Percy wasn't in danger working at the Ministry when the DEs took over and HE was a Blood Traitor.

The sad thing is that for some reason the readers hold Ron's two bad acts (turning on Harry in GoF and DH) against him like that's all there is to him, and forget ALL the good things he did for Harry the rest of the series.

I'd think you would be surprised at how many posters have a really big dislike of Ron b\c he dated Lavender. Many who really like Hermione really, REALLY dislike Ron b\c of the heartache he caused Hermione.

I don't think JKR wanted it to look like Ron dated Lavender just in order to hurt Hermione. I think he responded to someone who was willing to openly show they found him attractive, something Hermione refused to do unless it involved jealousy...like Fleur for example.

__________________

Darklord's Pal...because everyone needs a friend.

"People can sleep peacefully in their beds at night because there are strong men willing to do violence on their behalf."--George Orwell

"The urge to save humanity is often a false-face for the urge to rule it."--H.L. Mencken

"You can trust the Americans to do the right thing...after they have tried everything else."--Winston Churchill

"All's fair in love and war, and this is a little bit of both."--Ron Weasley

I'd think you would be surprised at how many posters have a really big dislike of Ron b\c he dated Lavender. Many who really like Hermione really, REALLY dislike Ron b\c of the heartache he caused Hermione.

I don't think JKR wanted it to look like Ron dated Lavender just in order to hurt Hermione. I think he responded to someone who was willing to openly show they found him attractive, something Hermione refused to do unless it involved jealousy...like Fleur for example.

I think that's exactly what JKR was showing. It was Ron who was jealous after Ginny told him Hermione and Viktor had shared a kiss. That's when the romance between him and Lavender began. Rather than Hermione not finding Ron attractive, she did want him to invite her to the Yule Ball after all; it was Ron who had to be hit with a plank (not literally!) to discover Hermione was actually a pretty girl. Ron's lucky his future wife had a forgiving nature . . .

If Hermione had done a better job letting Ron know she was "a girl" (let's face it, no one aside from Neville or some guy who didn't go to Hogwarts was willing to ask her out, she was doing something wrong and got lucky thanks to Krum) and led him on a bit better he probably would've asked her out. Let's not blame Ron for everything when they were both responsible.

Attraction goes both ways, and she did a lousy job letting Ron know she was attracted to him and was an option. As it is, in GoF he had no reason to think she'd want to go to the Ball with him so she shouldn't have gotten so angry to begin with.

And no, "She was friends with him for years" is not good enough for "Why he should see her as date potential" because she was friends with Harry for the same amount of time and no one held it against Harry for not asking her out.

She also failed to let him know even after GoF she was attracted to him. She didn't make it clear enough that she wasn't interested in Krum, and in doing so she discouraged Ron from doing anything. Lavender did a better job making it clear she was attracted to Ron, whereas Hermione did absolutely nothing while actively DISCOURAGING him.

And why is it okay for Hermione to kiss Krum, whereas Ron can't kiss another girl? What is with this double standard that she can get away with these things but he can't? And no, please don't say "It's because Ron deliberately was trying to hurt Hermione" because he really wasn't. He was just doing things with a girl who bothered showing him she was attracted to him, which Hermione simply never did. It's Hermione's fault.

^ Amen shadowsonic. I find it quite annoying when the fandom pins the blame on ron for stalling the romance that was always in the offing. I think the blame ought to be equally shared. Ron was one of Hermiones best friends, and she knew him quite well. She should have known that nothing more than very obvious hints would compel him to believe that she was attracted to him, given his insecurties. In fact, I think ron made a pretty bold move giving her that perfume for christmas, but from what we know, Hermione did nothing after that to speed their progress (not until the HBP pseudo ask out anyway).