What's more telling is the 3 very different pies I see that all followed the same recipe. From very thin crust with no voids to a big fluffy pie. This was always my point from the beginning. If Pete knew the exact formula that pnj ended up 'using' to make his pie (what he actually put into the bowl by feel) and wanted to make a copy, I'm sure his would have looked very similar to pnj's version. I would be interested to see Pete post what the formula ended up being for his attempt (by weight if he kept track of it) and then have pnj give it another shot by following that [formula by weight].

I don't think the LOOK of the pie has as much to do with the recipe as it does with the chef and his/her surroundings... for instance, the oven (meaning highest temp available, convection or non-convection, etc) the stone, (or lack thereof in pnj's case) the preheat time, the ambient kitchen temp for the poolish/dough rise... I think those, and quite a few more, variables exist with ANY recipe... and the photos would reflect that on almost any thread on this forum. I have made this dough three times and all three times had the same good result: GREAT pizza that DH and I enjoyed moreso than any we have purchased.

The true point is: was the pizza GOOD? Was it what you want it to be? If yes, the recipe works. If no, keep looking for a "better" one. THAT aspect is completely subjective and not based on photos on a website. For a same-day dough (sometimes the pizza urge strikes TODAY and we don't have time for a 3-day fridge retard) THIS recipe works for me. That, to me, is all that is important.

I made half the recipe and adjusted the knead time accordingly. Otherwise, I followed the recipe the way it was described in Jerry’s first post. It is possible that by making only one dough ball rather than two and letting it rise twice (1 ˝ hours each time) I may have altered the dough such that it had a lot of gas that resulted in tremendous oven spring with huge bubbles. I have read that a single large dough ball ferments differently than several smaller dough balls that collectively weigh the same as the larger one.

The most difficult part was getting the amount of flour right and dividing it properly between the preferment and the final mix. I measured out the flour by dipping my measuring cups into the bag of flour and shaking the measuring cups gently to get the flour level in the measuring cups. I assumed that Jerry didn't use the stir-lift-level method of measuring out flour.

Note: The flour is King Arthur bread flour; the Kosher salt is Morton’s; the finished dough weight was 13.30 oz.; the hydration of the preferment (weight of preferment water divided by the weight of preferment flour) was 128.4%

I ended up using 4.05 ounces of flour and 5.20 ounces of water for the preferment (along with part of the IDY). The amount of flour that I used in the final mix was 3.80 ounces. Based on Jerry’s recipe, I should have used an amount of flour in the preferment that was equal to or a bit less than what I used in the final mix. If I knew how Jerry measured out the flour, I think I should be able to fine tune the numbers and create a dough formulation that is closer to his recipe. I showed the photo of the dough on my scale so that Jerry can comment on whether it looks right. I used a basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook to knead the dough.

As noted above, I used barley malt syrup. I don’t know what the others used. It may have been honey. Both the preferment and the final dough fermented/proofed at around 71 degrees F. I am sure I could have stretched the skin out to 14", which would have resulted in a smaller rim. I don't recall what size pizzas the others made.

Peter,I used honey (Fred Meyer, pure clover, grade A) and my ambient kitchen temp was ~68o F for the rises. Another variable is how long the poolish was left to ferment (Jerry says 4 to 5 hours) and mine was fermented for about 4 hours, 45 minutes. I used Diamond Crystal kosher salt. That's another variable, since it's "flakier" than Morton's. My pizzas were stretched to 11" based on the size of my peel. I used HK bread flour, both for the poolish and the final dough. I made a 2/3 the dough batch (LOVE my KitchenCalc!!) to make 2 pizzas of the appropriate size to his recipe.

I didn't weigh my ingredients after volume measurement, but next time, I will.

My question to you, Peter: did you LIKE the pizza?? I'm guessing so, since you say it's a "good recipe, and a good choice for a pizza to be made the same day".... I would like some subjective input, if you wouldn't mind?!?

I would say that my preferment worked for almost 5 hours. I watched for the "break", which is the point just after the preferment peaks and then starts to recede. From that point, there is a reasonable period of time to use the preferment. The break, as best I could detect it, came at about 4 hours and 45 minutes.

Based on my finished dough weight (13.30 oz.) and the 13" pizza size, I calculated the thickness factor to be around 0.10. That allowed me to do a better comparison with other NY style pizzas that I have made using the same thickness factor.

I thought the pizza was very good. It was more breadlike and with a much larger rim than what I am used to in a NY style but those differences didn't detract from the eating experience. And the crust had good flavor and texture. This wasn't the first time I used a preferment for a NY style. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239/topicseen.html#msg23239 (Reply 362), in which I used a "biga" like preferment for a take-and-bake version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. I think using preferments is a good idea in general. I would definitely use Jerry's recipe again. As you might suspect, I would prefer to have a good baker's percent version of the recipe that would allow me (and others) to play around with it and make modifications without altering the basic characteristics of the pizza. So, for example, if I wanted to make an 18" version, I could come up with the formulation easily and quickly.

SD Girl, FANTASTIC looking pies. Peter, FANTASIC looking pie as well. But you know, really what do pictures provide other than eye candy? They sure do look good, but taste is where it's at for me. I guarantee I could make a awsome looking pie that tastes like crap and could make one ugly looking pizza that tastes awsome. It's all about the taste, who cares what it looks like. JMO, Rant over. On a upbeat note, I'll bet they tasted as good as they look. Nice job, real nice

Jerry Buddy. Keep on keeping on. I still want to make this dough one of these days. I'm going through some health issues these days. I haven't made pizza in many, many months. I hope to be able to get back into it sometime soon. Great pics of your dough by SD Girl, and Peter. They look soooooo good.

I measured out the flour just as you did because I figured that that is the method you would use because of its utter simplicity. I think I may have actually been a bit on the dry side with my dough because it did not quite stick to the middle of the bowl, even at 66% hydration. As I reported, I made one dough ball. If you were to make just one dough ball, would you let it rise the second time? I can see that with two dough balls they might need some time to recover from handling, shaping, etc. From your photos, it looks like you may have used honey instead of barley malt syrup. Is that correct? Because of the high hydration, I think that it might be worth trying a perforated disk or maybe even a perforated cutter pan (both dark anodized). There seems to be plenty of lift in the dough to still be able to have good oven spring. Using a disk or pan will make it much easier for someone to dress the pizza and not fear that it will stick to the peel.

Jerry,Thanks for the clarifications... I usually watch for a silver dollar sized spot of dough in the bottom of the mixer bowl and that's when I quit with the flour. I use the "stir, spoon, sweep" method which explains why I have to add a little more flour than you do! It makes sense! As for the poolish, I didn't wait for the signs of falling back, mostly because I was pressed for time. I think it could have gone a little longer, based on the fact that my kitchen temp is about 3 or 4 degrees cooler than Peter's. All good knowledge to have!

And remember, the best--and only--compliment you will get from aba is his silence.

Peter...Thanks for the subjective comments. I know you are a science-guy and sometimes it's hard for science-guys to be subjective... objectivity is the norm. Recipes like Jerry's, are mix of art and science, which is why I really enjoy making this recipe! My educational background is both scientific and artistic, so I guess that explains my being drawn to a VM recipe.

And yes, I had issues with the dough sticking to the peel, so I solved it by the use of parchment paper. If you look at the photo of my tomato/cheese pie, the parchment is still there. Since it was the second pie baked, the parchment didn't turn as black as the first pie...with my oven set to 550, the paper under the first pizza browned/blackened at the edges and became very brittle but didn't catch fire. I realize that I sacrificed some crispness (but not MUCH!) by removing the initial direct contact of the dough with the moisture-absorbing stone. With the first pie, I pulled the parchment out as soon as the crust had set, so that crust was quite crisp. The crust on the tomato pie was still very good, but I wish I had let the oven/stone recover more. Or perhaps I should have started it on the hotter upper stone and moved it down. That's an experiment for the next time!But, bottom line, I would much rather use parchment than a cold pan to resolve the sticking issue.

Bryan,Thanks for the compliments! I'm sorry to hear of your issues and hope that you will be able to return to pizza making soon! How you must torture yourself looking at these photos!

Technically, what Jerry uses as a preferment is not a "poolish", which requires using equal weights of flour and water. It is quite possible that the break point will be more readily detectable in a classic poolish, and similarly for a sponge, than a more watery one like Jerry's. I calculated a hydration of around 128% for the preferment I made using Jerry's recipe, whereas a classic poolish will have a hydration of 100%. This is just a technical point since the differences aren't likely to have a significant effect on the final outcome. However, for someone using a scale, it might make it a bit easier to measure out the flour and water.

FYI, according to theartisan.net treatise on yeast, at http://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm (click on "Fermentation Control" in the left panel and look under Sponge Doughs), after the break point arrives there is still time left to use the preferment. As a practical matter, even if the preferment is past its prime it can still contribute acids and other byproducts of fermentation that will enhance the crust flavors, although some might not find the flavors entirely appealing if the preferment ferments too much. Also, it may be necessary to make other adjustments to the ingredients that go into the final mix to compensate for the higher acid levels, sugar depletion, etc.

The reason for my objectivity with Jerry's recipe is to be able to determine how much dough I would need to make a pizza of another size while still retaining the characteristics of Jerry's finished crust. For example, if I asked you or Jerry how to do that using volume measurements for an 18" pizza, how would you instruct me?

Peter,Thanks for the clarification of poolish v preferment. I always thought that preferment was an umbrella term for all types... poolish, sponge, biga, etc and didn't realize that there was a specific hydration for each. Since my preferment had not started to fall back, I'm guessing that I might have gotten even more flavor out of it had I had the luxury of a little more time.

I fully understand the need for you to convert this recipe to BPs because there is no way I could tell you the information you need based on what I always make for DH and me. When I discovered that the pizzas Jerry was making were larger than what my peel will hold, I used my KitchenCalc http://www.contractor-books.com/CI/KitchenCalc.htm to scale the recipe down by 2/3 and it worked perfectly. I now make 2 11" pizzas. Were we to have guests, I would use the full recipe... but as far as an 18"? No clue, I wouldn't be able to help you at all.

I don't know how to do it by volumes either. However, if I were satisfied with the dough formulation I posted earlier, I could scale that up to the 18" size quite easily--or to any other size for that matter. However, if I were to be really serious about this kind of exercise, I would perhaps rework Jerry's recipe to use a classical poolish. I would do this simply because all of the formula water is used in the poolish and I could just use the same weight of flour for the poolish as for the water. Once the poolish fermentation time is established, I would then have to determine the amount of additional flour (by weight) to use as part of the final mix to achieve the dough condition that Jerry described. If the pizza turned out well, I could then come up with a new dough formulation based on baker's percents. I think it should then be possible to convert the flour for that version from weights to volumes now that I know how Jerry measures out his flour. Or else I could specify my own method of doing the conversions or use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.

Just would like to start by saying that while this is my first post, it's definitely not my first pizza. I've made some really good ones, and some horrible ones (my fiancee can attest).

Anyway, I followed the recipe right on (except for a couple of high altitude changes, Colorado Springs 6500 ft) but I prepped it very differently.

Instead of Jerry's process with the poolish, I let my, ahem, bread maker (shhhhhhhh) handle everything. 1 1/3 cup of warm water mixed with the tbl of honey in first, 3+ cups of bread flour on top with indentions for my 1 1/2 tsp of kosher salt and 1 3/4 tsp yeast.

It came out of the bread maker pretty moist, but nothing a floured surface wouldn't fix. It's the perfect amount of dough for two 14" pies. My electric oven only goes to 500, but they came off the stone soooo perfectly. This were easily the pizzas I've ever made.

Here's my shot at the JerryMac recipe. This pizza recipe was awesome. Better than my old recipe. THANKS Jerry, you are awesome! I baked this up here in the Mile High City in a 550 degree oven on the pizza stone. (Interesting note - I didn't need to add more flour after the initial amount was measured into the mixer.... My guess is because of the high & dry altitude of Denver.)

Pizza was awesome - lots of air/bubble pockets - nice crispy chewy crust. Very easy to make and work with. Here's some pics...

That is a nice looking pie. I have been surprised at how many different looking pies have been made using Jerry's recipe. Did you depart from it in any way, for example, in terms of the ingredients, preparation methods, or pizza size?

Thanks for the interest. I stuck to the recipe for the whole thing (big deviation is Colorado altitude/climate). I used King Arthur Bread Flour throughout.

The poolish was exact per recipe. For the dough, I used the honey (vs. barley malt). I only needed the 1 1/2 cups of flour (I measured flour as JerryMac does above by scooping/shaking off excess).

The thing I found most interesting is I didn't have to add any flour (after the initial 1.5 cups) to the kitchen-aid mixer that was running. From the looks of what I had in the mixing bowl - it looked like it would clear the sides of bowl without the additional flour...and sure enough, it did! So I didn't add any more.

When I got it out of bowl it had a good balanced feel - didn't feel too wet nor dry. I anticipated it being very loose (high hydration) from reading this thread, but it felt "just right". My guess is that living in the high-altitude and dry air here in Colorado rapidly soaks up that moisture from the dough.

I produced two dough balls that made the ~14" pies (since that's a 16" stone in photo) with oven at 550 degrees.

I also don't prefer a huge outer crust around the edges (I think that's called cornicione?), so that why the crust edges seem kind of low - I shape it that way on purpose per my taste.

I did forget to spray or add EVOO to edges of the crust before cooking. Next time I will try that.

I cut (with scissor) all my pies on wire rack like shown (to avoid condensation underneath). In the pie above - its just fresh cherry tomatoes (that I pureed) and mixed with EVOO/spices, and fresh mozzarella cheese from Costco (BelGioso).

I will definitely be using this again since its better than my old recipe.

Thanks again, to you and Mad_Ernie and JerryMac for some nice comments!

Last night my wife declared this my best pizza yet. She said the crust was 'perfect in every way.' I've tried many recipes on this forum and I think I have one I'm going to stick with. She said it the best flavor,texture, and chew...and she's quite hard to please.