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More discussion of the gaming aspect would have been welcome. Like actually loading up a couple of multiplayer games and comparing the average player ranking you achieve on one keyboard versus another.

What's it matter how fast you can type on this keyboard, if it's useless for games?Reply

I mentioned this on page three, that the split makes it less practical for many games. Frankly, I'm nowhere near a competitive enough gamer to make my rankings at all meaningful. As to your question: it's an ergonomic keyboard, designed specifically for typists. What's it matter if it's useful for games? That's like asking for battery life numbers from a desktop system. Perhaps that's too far; it's like criticizing a professional GPU because it runs games slower than a consumer GPU.

Q: How fast can the new NVIDIA Tesla cards run Crysis 3?A: They can't, as they have no video outputs, but more importantly: who cares?Reply

Maybe, but how many people use their computer *just* in the capacity of a typist? There are probably some in that category, particularly when you consider applications in the professional/office context. But if you're a company that makes these kind of products, it seems like you'd want to avoid being stuck in such a narrow niche?

I'd be interested in having a more efficient keyboard, but not if it's going to be impossible to play games with. I do both things on my computer; so I care, for one. Probably there are at least a few others in that boat with me.

Maybe someone will cook up a 'transformer-style' version of this keyboard, where it can be arranged into full ergonomic mode for fast and comfortable typing and easily switched over to a more conventional layout for gaming. Shouldn't be terribly difficult, though would certainly drive up costs.Reply

The company I work for sell buttloads of ergonomic furniture - inverted keyboard trays, oddly uncomfortable ergo mice, what have you. There is also a surprisingly large market for custom-fitted ergo chairs that cost $2000+. I also work with a number of people that use the more conventional split-style keyboards and don't use computers at home virtually at all.

Just because you don't understand a market doesn't mean it doesn't existReply

In the games I like to play (RPG, Strategy) you can often remap the keys yourself. In this case you shouldn't have much trouble creating soem config which works well with this keyboard. A Shooter without remapping miht be another story, though.Reply

To be honest MOST people use their computer "just" in the capacity of a typist, or at least the vast majority of the time. This is clearly not a keyboard designed for gamers...that should be obvious from a glance. Gamers are a minority of the computer using crowd, esp with the advent of consoles.Reply

I think you are ignoring the fact here that most of those "MOST" people use two finger typing. People willing to use a strangely distorted Keyboard are the true minority (even my own MS natural is causing most people into massive confusion), but within this group of people willing to invest time into getting used to new hardware, gamers are unlikely to be a minority.

That being said, this keyboard looks like its only an option for people who plan to never, ever use a notebook again. At least, I personally could never imagine to invest hundreds of hours into learning a new keyboard just to keep switching between keyboards extremely different. Reply

I've been using the Kinesis Advantage since the late 90's. I certainly didn't invest hundreds of hours into getting used to it - half a day to a day is more like it. It's certainly less effort than learning a new keyboard layout like Dvorak, which took me a couple days to be comfortable with. I do have an Apple laptop at work, though I rarely remove it from my desk, so when I use it, I always have my Kinesis keyboard connected to it. However, we have a couple labs with dozens of systems, and my wife and kids don't use a Kinesis keyboard at home on their computers (I do have a Kinesis keyboard for my computer at home), so I often have to switch between my Kinesis keyboard with Dvorak layout and standard keyboards with QWERTY layout. It's not a big deal - it's like being fluent in two languages and having to switch between them, which I have to do as well. Every once in a while I start typing in the wrong "language", but it's easy to get back to the right "language".Reply

Nope, switching is really not that hard. You are not replacing your knowledge (or rather muscle memory) you are extending it. Have you ever forgotten a language when learning another? Have you ever forgotten one type of sport you practice when learning another? In this case it is not problem to use standard keyboards and the Kinesis simultaneously. The same way you can type Querty AND Dvorak (once you learned it). People are so afraid of new things, but we don't forget the old things by doing so.Reply

At work, I type....a lot!, so I would be in that category. At home I mostly play games. While this would be useless for me at home, it would be great to have at work. Ergonomic keyboards are defnitely not a niche in the business world. You could always get one of these for typing and a nostromo or something similar for gaming. Best of both worlds.Reply

Ergonomic keyboards are about getting the right tool for the job. You trade off the flat, common array of keys for better typing. There /are/ ergonomic keyboards for gaming, and instead of having to remap games, you remap the board. Notably the Razer Orbweaver has mechanical keys, but altogether the Razer Nostromo, Saitek Command Unit, and Logitech G13 all have ergonomic aspects for gaming: thumbsticks for WASD, macros and shift levels so you don't have to run all over the keyboard to ergonomically play games.

In addition, any gameboard bigger than the Belkin/Razer Nostromo has enough keys to function as a complete numpad which many ergonomic keyboards don't have.Reply

I suppose gaming comes down to type of game, mouse, and modifier keys. I game on a Goldtouch Key Ovation because I need the smartcard for work, and am too lazy to change back and forth. Mouse is a standard Microsoft 5 button.

No issues with Crysis (Original) and very little issue with WoW, using 1-6 with ALT and Shift as modifier keys.Reply

kinesis lets you do hardware remapping of the keys directly in the keyboard, i swapped the backspace, delete, enter space buttons so it was a mirror image of how the keyboard comes stock, that pretty much removed any gaming problems, and swapping the windows key and end key was also really nice, once i remapped them in the keyboard it's self, i just popped the keys off with a butter knife and physically moved them and never had trouble again!Reply

You are wrong in generalizing about the split: it makes it better for games because it reduces positioning errors and hitting keys beyond your target keys. Gaming means left hand on keyboard, right hand on mouse. A split layout lets you accurately position your left hand to the right hand position to use infrequent keys.

Take a look at that MS natural of yours: The inner edge keys (like T G N, etc. are larger than usual as well). MS Natural had the best layout and sizing of keys for me. The Kinesis does not have the fatter keys of course but would retain the other advantages of splitting.

Also: I remap to ESDF always so nothing to complain about on that front. The lack of G keys is what kills this board for me, not gaming.

Finally you are wrong to diss gamers like that. I have an easy existence proof of a gamer that also wants a good keyboard: me. I am willing to pay lots for that keyboard and have many times. I buy them in pairs to cover work and home, and they need to game as well as produce code and forum rants;-)Reply

I forgot to add, this is just in response to dismissing the concerns of gamers for a keyboard. I am totally fine with Jarred not having the time, energy or bandwidth to test gaming in addition to typing for a month+ per keyboard.

If you can type fast on the board, its likely also going to be good for gaming. +/- tweaky cherry red vs brown vs black etc. preferences.Reply

You say it's like asking how a Tesla is for games. I say it's more akin to having a professional workstation you also game on. Like asking how a Quadro is for games. I get that you are defensive over this new product category you seem to like, but you must less biased and more objective.Reply

"What's it matter how fast you can type on this keyboard, if it's useless for games?"

I use a computer for 8-10-12 hours of work. On each weekday. Sometimes a bit on weekends.

I play games average 10 minutes each day.

And so do my very own few thousand colleagues.

And so do the few million people using computers to earn money.

In this concern, gamers are a minority. A tiny rounding error. For your own balance of mind, please go and read articles about watercooled triple GPU configs - that seems to be more your field of interest. And don't forget to ask for money from dad.Reply

This is a hardware enthusiast site so I think a significant number of people who come here use their computers for gaming, maybe not for its primary purpose, but at least a significant amount of the time. So I don't think it's that crazy to want a little more perspective on how well this keyboard is used for gaming purposes.

"For your own balance of mind, please go and read articles about watercooled triple GPU configs - that seems to be more your field of interest. And don't forget to ask for money from dad."

That was rude, unconstructive, and detracts from the argument you're trying to make.Reply

I don't think you have any evidence to back up that claim. Not that I have any to back up mine anyway, but do you really think a significant number of the people who read this site don't play games on a daily basis? By significant I mean at least 20%.Reply

I have been reading Anand for a ridiculously long time as well, since the late 90's if I'm not mistaken. I am 100% sure that over that time most of the content has been geared toward people who care about high performance computing, most of those people being gamers. That said, there's also plenty of content that would be of use to those who couldn't care less about games.

The big problem is that these two statements are just closed-minded:

"What's it matter how fast you can type on this keyboard, if it's useless for games?"

"For your own balance of mind, please go and read articles about watercooled triple GPU configs - that seems to be more your field of interest. And don't forget to ask for money from dad."

Article like this particular one will bring out the set that doesn't care about games since they are probably the ones that care most about how many WPM they can type in a day. The cross-section is going to be much larger here than a review of the Titan or a Gaming Notebook.

Can't we just all get along? :) (never is the answer to that question... hasn't happened yet.. probably won't.. ever..)Reply

I guess I can shed some light on this. I'm a Kinesis Advantage user, I have two of them (one at work one at home) and am a relatively serious gamer. I'm of decent skill level (CAL-M CS1.6, CAL-I DOD:S, and I've played lots of MMOs, RTS, and other genres), and i actually really enjoy using the Kinesis for gaming. Theres a few differences from a normal keyboard:

1. I've switched from WASD to ESDF for any and all movement. This is because the E and D keys are physically lower than W and S. Because your middle finger is the longest finger on your hand, this ends up feeling incredibly natural, and I actually like it better than a standard keyboard.

2. Your thumb is incredible on this keyboard. With barely moving, I have easy access to: Backspace, Delete, Control, Alt, Home, and End. The one issue with this is that some games don't like using Backspace and Delete as bindable keys. The way around this is to have the Kinesis remap that as a different key (any key) so that it will treat it as such (its easy to unmap and remap). The macros I would imagine could come in handy, but I almost never use them. (fighting games might be ridiculous...)

3. The one major issue I've found: With your left hand, you only have access to the numbers 1-5. This can become problematic with games like WoW where you have a ton of spells, keybinds, macros, whatever. I would've enjoyed having access to 6 or 7 with my left hand, but no big deal. There is also the +/= key to the left of 1 (where tilde normally is) so that gives you an extra key. Plus, with the extra keys on your thumb it almost balances out.

Any other questions, feel free to ask or PM me on the forums (since I'm not sure how much I'll check this).Reply

This is mostly what I was trying to get at with the gaming discussion in the article, but I suppose I stopped before fully completing the circle. Basically, yes it can be used for games, but it will in practice requires you to remap the default keys in virtually every game, as well as potentially needing to use the Kinesis remapping feature to also switch out the Backspace and Delete keys. It goes back the the whole "standard keyboard" phrase again: the Advantage isn't a standard layout and thus you have to resort to custom mappings. But the key action, number of keys you can use at once, etc. should be a problem.

That is why you get a Cyborg RAT MMO7 for your mouse. It has a good set of extra buttons you can pick from to supplement your ESDF keyboard setup (making sure your mousepad is red so it helps and not hinders the laser).Reply

the advantage of USB keyboards is that you can have more than one plugged in at once, which only leaves physically swapping the keyboards, but at least you don't have to fiddle with wires. any avid PC gamer worth their salt would probably not mind making space for an extra keyboard? i have made do with a gaming steering wheel permanently fixed on my desk above the keyboard tray for almost a decade and a half!Reply

To me, the TL;DR is "Yes, it's worth it because prevention is better than the cure." I've had the Advantage since 2008 when I started to develop pain in my shoulders, arms, and hands. I debated a lot about the cost, then was reminded a friend who went through surgery and therapy. The pain of spending ~$300 is much less than that.

That being said, I was using a Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 (which I now realize is a bad design) before that and had really bad shoulder pain. Simply moving the mouse to my left hand helped a lot since I didn't have to stretch my hand so much. That's a free ergonomic upgrade. Moving the mouse probably did more for me than buying the Advantage, but I still think the Kinesis is worth it because it did help a lot.Reply

Somebody else posted this, but another option is the Kinesis Freestyle. For 1/3 the price you get an adjustable split keyboard and no numpad, which (IMO), are the two biggest plus points of the Advantage.Reply

Let me put it this way. I've been using a Kinesis at home and work (software development) for ~17 years or so. Relatively recently I switched to a 'regular' wireless Logitech keyboard that is roughly the size of a laptop keyboard, when you ignore the 10-key keypad. After 6 months of this torture I switched back to the Kinesis. This laptop-sized keyboard had my wrists packed so closely together and contorted so badly that my wrists and forearms were just screaming.Reply

I made a similar comment in your initial review of the Kinesis keyboard, but I wanted to reiterate how much using the footswitch along the the "Advantage" model helped with my RSI issues. I used the single button footswitch and then set it to emulate the "shift" key. Once that was configured, I was able to type Capital letters without having to use my pinkie fingers to hold down the regular shift key. It really reduced the fatigue in my weak pinkie finger and made a real difference in my pain levels. I really recommend you giving it a try.Reply

I almost laughed out loud when I read the second line of your signature after all the noise you made about your age. Cheap shot, I know, but it just struck me as hilarious, especially with the cut-off email address. Even though you're only 10 years older than I am...

Fun read though, I switched from a MS ergonomic keyboard to non-ergonomic mechanical a few years ago and have been on-and-off considering something like this. Always useful to read an *experienced* perspective. ;)Reply

It all depends on your needs. If you type very often and for long periods of time, then "decent" ones turn out to be "terrible" over the long run, when many start developing RSI problems. Those can end up being a LOT more than $300 for treatment (worst case: surgery) and don't always work. Its much better to get the proper tools to ensure that you can work without issue for many years.

The previous generation didn't use computers daily nearly as much as this generation does, so who knows how many people will end up with RSI related injuries in 20-40 years. Better to nip it in the bud before you become a statistic.Reply

I have owned a pair of Kinesis keyboards for over 14 years for work station duties, one at home and one at work. Gaming has been with normal keyboards, mostly as I find the layout not conducive to gaming.

One finally failed last year, and I replaced it with another modern one with a usb connector (my olds ones have an original fat pc connector to give you some idea of age). I think my ones are not mechanical switches. For a $300 keyboard, I cannot complain about it lasting 12 years. In the interim, I have destroyed many generic pc keyboards, so $30 per year is excellent value.

Other than the chicklet keys, the keyboard is fantastic. I got them when I had oos or rsi issues, and they helped greatly. Replacing the mouse with a trackball was more important, but the ability to rest the weight of your arms on the keyboard really helped.Reply

Thanks for your keyboard reviews. I am finishing my PhD thesis was shopping for an alternative to my MS 4000. After reading your TECK review I decided that it was time to get serious and make a decision. I really wanted to hold off my purchase until after you completed the the Advantage review but ruled it out as an option due to its cost. I settled on the Kinesis Freestyle. I absolutely love being able to reposition each half of the keyboard (right now "G" and "H" are 11" apart) and the key force is just right. I think it is a good compromise between enhanced ergonomics and traditional key layout as it took almost zero adjustment to get used to. I'm excited to read your ErgoDox review.Reply

I suspect that the improvement between a regular keyboard and the TECK or Advantage is very large, but the marginal improvement between either keyboard for any particular user is pretty small. That is, you get diminishing returns when comparing the TECK or Advantage to each other but very large returns comparing either to a conventional keyboard. Reply

Jarred, as it sounds like these keyboard reviews are grinding on you, I'd just like you to know that I really appreciate these mechanical switch ergonomic keyboard reviews. Most all of my friends and colleagues think I'm crazy for going through so many mice and keyboards in effort to find the perfect solution. I've looked into these mechanical switch ergo keyboards but haven't mustered up the courage to trust in the money back guarantees. As such, I've been looking for reviews just like yours to help me determine the best course of action, and your sharing of your experience has been extremely valuable. The ErgoDox looks very interesting for a few different reasons to me, size being one of the important factors to me. I'm looking forward to your review. Again, many thanks for your thorough reviews of important products which are peripheral in a sense, and yet are the principal tool in the human-computer interaction. Cheers.Reply

Honestly, the hardest part is that just when I reach the point where I'm thinking, "Yeah, I actually like this keyboard a lot and could see myself sticking with this particular model..." I have to unplug it and start testing the next one. Argh! I admit to being a bit shocked at how bad I was at typing on the TECK after a two month break; it will be interesting to see if the same thing happens with the Advantage once I put it aside and start using the ErgoDox daily in its place.Reply

Jarred, you mentioned Dragon in your article. I know Anand (at least used to) uses Dragon a lot. Can you ask him to write a companion article on his experiences with Dragon? Or do that + you take up Dragon and give your hands a break entirely from the keyboard! I tried Dragon for a few semesters while in college, but haven't touched it in quite a while. Please chime in.Reply

Actually, I think you're remembering my Dragon articles -- I'm not sure that Anand has done much with Dragon in recent years. I've got a copy and a microphone to use with it, and now I just need to spend some time testing....Reply

I've been using the Kinesis keyboard since the mid-1990s. Like others my first model was pre-USB, and for about 10 years now I have the same model reviewed. I love it! I find the keyboard macros are helpful for things like my name (mapped to Shift+Backspace), my email address, website etc.

The only maintenance aspect of the keyboard that is required after long-term use is to occasionally replace the foam pads. Those pads really make a difference if you are like me and rest your arms on the palm rest when not typing.

The other thing to be aware of is USB 3.0. Kinesis write (grammatical error included) "Advantage keyboard’s currently do not work with Intel based USB 3.0 ports on Windows 7 operating systems. The Advantage however will work with Intel based USB 3.0 ports with other operating systems, including Windows 8, Mac & Linux. The Advantage should work with most other non-Intel USB 3.0 chipset manufacturers and Windows 7."Reply

Hello Jarred, Get an A4Tech A-Shape keyboard for a review and make sure it is not a slim model. You will enjoy the most comfortable ergonomic typing on a standard keyboard layout. There is no learning curve, you just put your hands and start typing. Your hands will give you the happiest feedback you'll ever get from typing on a keyboard ever. I used one for years 10 years before I had the courage to retire it and get a normal mechanical keyboard (Logitech). I would love to hear your thoughts about it.Reply

Now I miss my old original white MS Naturals. The silver black ones I replaced them with sucked and I jumped ship to G keys and Logitech. Currently Corsair K-90 with mechanical keys. Its got the lame non split layout and is also spaced closer than I want so lots of double key hits and the keys are twitchy and double tapping a lot.

My perfect keyboard: I really just want the MS split key layout but with G keys and mechanical keys. (existing inverted T arrow keys and num pad mandatory of course). I would be happy to banish caps lock, insert, num & scroll lock to the bottom of the keyboard. Also textured ESDF keys (with spare WA as well for the sheeple). This hardware remapping sounds good as well.Reply

I have the same issue as the author, also the need of switching between workspaces (stationary/laptop). The natural ergonomic 4k is very good in this regard, as learning it goes fast. The only problem is the rubber dome.

The Kinesis is nice, but it is big and expensive. The website of Teck compares it the whole time to the NatErgo, however for those who need to switch between workspaces, the Nat Ergo is better.

Which leaves me with the problem, that Nat Ergo has rubber dome switches, and cherry mx red is much better to write on.

Well, I hope some time MS will announce the Nat Ergo Brown/Red. I would definitively go for it. I have tried a Steelseries 6g v2 too, it was very nice to write on it, but it was a pain to my wrists, so it needed to go.Reply

Jarred, Thank you for this review. This kind of thing helps to bring attention to something that people who use computers for a living should be thinking about: Keyboard quality, longevity, and the improved health benefits a quality keyboard provides. I hope the Ergodox review doesn't take long. I'm super pumped to read about it. Will you be building your own, or did you have it made? I currently own a HHKB Pro 2, but have been thinking I may need to get something a bit more ergo. Thanks again! Reply

Have you tried the SafeType. The switch to it is easier and it's ergonomics are quite a bit different. http://safetype.com/

I have one and I liked it for typing, but as a programmer I needed my 10 key pad too much. It has a 10 key but it's a little difficult to get to. For someone who does mostly typing, though it might work great.Reply