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Now that I am back again after 6 months of inactivity, we did some shihonage last night. The omote was not bad, but ura needed work.

Then this morning one of my helpful uke friends agreed to help me find my correct 'form'. So what does she do ? She spins out on me and stands right behind me (great place for her, lousy for me), smiling like crazy, and I'm just standing there feeling 'dumb'

That got me thinking. So later this morning, my caretaker (janitor) friend at work comes in, and is curious about my class last night, to the point where we try to 'reproduce' the failed ura version of shihonage *after* I had read the 2002 posting above.

If they spin our of your shihonage, imediately do the technique again, they will likely try and get out the same way. If they do that, just stop turning, and let them do the work for you.

Uke is turning the same way as you do in order to "turn out" of shihonage. If you keep turning while they are it makes a double turn, thus no technique. However if you stop and they turn, it's the same as them not turning (a single turn), and you get a shihonage.

If you want to make them pay a little more for their bad uke-ing, back out of your shihonage and stand tall as they turn, it will put lots of pressure on their arm; often making them a better uke.

If you were applying shihonage correctly, the person would not be able to spin out of it.

Train well,

Mickey

Onegaishimasu. Wow. A true believer in the technique of shihonage. It reminds me of something Rinjiro Shirata said after doing aikido for 50 years: "I think I am finally starting to get the hang of shihonage."

Hi everyone. We have a couple of uncooperative Uke in our class that consistently try to defeat any technique that you apply. One that I have noticed is shihonage. Has anyone else ever had trouble with Uke spinning out of shihonage? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

If the uke does not follow the technique, neither partner is learning anything... and injuries can occur. Also, nage can try extending uke more, which will cause them to lose balance, and thus, they will be unable to spin out. Shihonage, like any other aikido technique, is simply a method of training to realize the principles of aikido, if uke cannot follow, explain why they should... and if they still don't cooperate, ask them to leave the class.

Also, nage can try extending uke more, which will cause them to lose balance, and thus, they will be unable to spin out.

This is a very good method. I would also add to this, that you should then roll the uke's hand/arm off of the top of your head and try to place their hand at the bottom of their spine. You must be careful, because this can be dangerous. But is done properly, uke will not be able to spin out, as this will be a very tight application of Shihonage.

If the uke does not follow the technique, neither partner is learning anything... and injuries can occur. Also, nage can try extending uke more, which will cause them to lose balance, and thus, they will be unable to spin out. Shihonage, like any other aikido technique, is simply a method of training to realize the principles of aikido, if uke cannot follow, explain why they should... and if they still don't cooperate, ask them to leave the class.

I think extending and unbalancing uke (kuzushi) is needed in every technique. So it is in shiho nage.

But: Is following nage a concept of your aikido also on an advanced level? Or are you talking about beginners only?

What variation are you referring too? I can't even begin to picture anyone spinning out of shihonage. I can picture the point where you have a neutral position and the shihonage can be reversed with a counter shihonage ( if the momentum is weak and the flow/attack/execution has jerky pauses etc..) ..but I can't see the spin out factor..maybe I am blind or just stupid.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!

This is a common problem with shihonage. Often it occurs during static practice, where uke's balance hasn't been taken.

* Make sure on the "draw" that uke's arm is fully extended and their weight is on the lead foot.

* Don't raise uke's arm over your head, use your knees to go under the arm. Keep uke's wrist rested on your forehead as you begin to move under the arm.

* When passing under the arm, make sure uke's arm, in particular uke's elbow, always remains in contact with your body. You can easily switch to a arm bar if something should go awry during shihonage

* Should uke turn out, follow up with another shihonage but drop the level of the technique lower. It seems beginners have the knack to do that turn out. After completing my pivot, I would change elevations and drop to one knee up like in hanmi handachi and apply shihonage "cut" from there.

For what it is worth, have your instructor evaluate your shihonage, he/she can help better than anyone online can. While the online community can give shall we say inspiration, run the "inspiration" through your instructor for proper guidance and execution of technique.

I found in working with kids that when I felt them begin to spin out, if I stepped back rather than forward, as we usually do, the technique presented itself. This of course doesn't address the question of how to keep them from trying....

When I am working with an uke that I don't work with that often and he tries to spin out during Shihonage, I immediately counter with a kotegashe. Once they are over their surprise I lightly mention that we should really just work on the technique that Sensei asked us too...

But, since I am short, to stop that from happening I usually get in close which stops them from trying to spin.

"Aikido is nothing but an expression of the spirit of Love for all living things."

I think extending and unbalancing uke (kuzushi) is needed in every technique. So it is in shiho nage.

But: Is following nage a concept of your aikido also on an advanced level? Or are you talking about beginners only?

Carsten

I am talking about all levels.. at our dojo, we always practice following... occasionally we do tight grips and practice with resistance, but not to the point where you just stand in one spot (because then you're not doing anything either, then what's the point of nage doing a technique). The reason we practice resistance, and usually with more advanced students, is to teach nage to find a weakness and exploit it. The reason we practice following is so that uke can detect weaknesses in nage's technique and, if it were a real-life situation, perform a counter. The more you follow, the more balanced you are, and the more chances you have to get ahead of nage.

my vision is a yokomenuchi strike and as Nage blending with Ukes strike, then softly finding Ukes shoulder and sliding up it toward the wrist (still keeping the momentum and spiral movement offered to you in the strike) and as Nage spin INTO it yourself with a nice center and apply the waza... can't see where Uke can spin out.

I know some styles offer a block and jerk version but I can't comment on that..not real familiar with it.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!

keep hands extended all the way. when you turn (omote or ura), uke's hands can't be over his/her shoulder level. too high, he/she spins off or he/she can pull you back. if uke is shorter, lower yourself more even if it means going down on your knees.

Onegaishimasu. Sometimes if you put your elbow in uke's back while doing shihonage, the elbow works as a sort of brace to stop the turning.

In gassho,

Mark

If I understand you correctly, then I agree. If you pull the elbow away from the body you can cause a world of pain...and you have to be careful, but it gives some beautiful control over uke where you can play with them and set them down right in front of you.

In the end, all the moves are hit and miss...from time to time what seems to work doesnt...just cyclical I guess.

I had a time of day with shomenuchi sankyo today for only god knows what reason. It happens I suppose.