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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No, not joking. Before the season it was *consensus* that the 'Skins had more team around RG3. He *still* does. I'm convinced of that. Luck has nothing but rooks and practice squad players, and we lose guys on a weekly basis. We lost 3 guys today just during the game, crucial guys (Satele C, Mathis, and one of our tackles). We lost our 2nd best receiver for the year. Fleener was gone. VDavis was gone (our best DB). He's throwing to: Hilton (rookie), Allen (rookie), Hall (rookie), Avery (hasn't done **** in this league, was picked up off his couch), and then Wayne. I'm not saying the 'Skins is better than ours, but it's not worse, either. And Luck isn't leaning solely on Wayne, he had 100+ yards to one rookie receiver and Avery, the couch receiver, today.

You want Luck to play C, TE, CB, LB, Tackle, DT, and DE? Because at any given moment, we're on our 2nd and 3rd and even 4th stringers there. Opposing teams reside in Luck's face, so don't sit there and tell me RG3 has worse protection. Luck is making these completions with some of the leagues top defenders draped all over him.

Yes, it's excuse making. The 'Skins have no excuse. Can't even sit here and tell me a line that hosts one of the league's best rushing attacks that they are "full of holes". What does Luck have? Absolutely ZERO rushing attack. Can whine all ya want about the 'Skins line, but the only reason the league doesn't regard Indy's line as worse is because Luck is so damn good at getting rid of the ball and escaping pressure.

Not to mention --- RG3 has MIKE SHANAHAN, legendary coach. Luck's coach is a rookie coach, spends most of his time in the hospital, barely able to move. We're leaning on Arians, who was just fired last year. The situation for Indy is absolutely nuts.

The only reason we are even close to sniffing the playoffs is because of one guy --- Andrew Luck. Take that guy out of the equation, and we're a 1-win team right now, at best.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-04-2012 at 09:41 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

The only reason you'd think RG3 was "playing better" early on was because you weren't looking at the right stuff. I'm not trying to be condescending, because I used to look at the game the same way. I only looked at stats, and not context. You bought into the 'Skins gimmicky offense and west-coast/option hybrid, whatever-it-is "college" offense. The league *is* going to solve that offense. It's not a matter of if, it's when. It's already happening. I knew it then. I said the exact same thing before the season started about Cam Newton, when OlBlu was proclaiming him a superstar and greatest QB of this generation. Luck is not running anything like that. He's running a full-blown NFL offense and has been since day 1. I've been saying this for months. I'm not trying to hate on RG3, it is just what it is. I could see this coming by a mile. I've always leaned on the truest factors for gauging these guys --- mechanics, build, mental make-up, performance under pressure. I've been saying for months that I've *never* seen a quarterback come out of college with a skillset that equals Lucks. Ever. I knew it would take half a season for us to see the fruits of that selection, because of the factors that Luck was thrown into. I don't need to recount those obstacles because all we had to do was watch Pagano's post-game locker-room speech for it all to become clear just exactly what this team has had to overcome, on every level. And we're 5-3. I knew Luck was the best quarterback prospect we've ever seen in this league, and he's even surprised me with how good he's become so quickly. I know there'll be rocky days, but today was a glimpse of what kidn of performances he can put up.

It wasn't just stats that made me think this. I've watched both teams play every game this season and analyzed them game by game. I've always said they dummied down the play book for RGIII nd that he was only throwing to a side of the field. With that said he still managed to complete 70% of his passes without a number one or number two receiver. Santana Moss is a decent slot guy, but his best football is behind him. Also if you think the colts drop a ton of passes, watch Leonard Hankerson or Josh Morgan try to catch passes that falls right into their hands.

Also RGIII lost his security blanket in the middle of the field in Fred Davis who isn't a works beater, but had developed good chemistry with Griffin.

Just like Lucks played bad games this year (CHI, NYJ) and mediocre games (CLE, JAX) Griffin is starting to do the same.

Luck has easily pulled away from the debate but it's not like Griffin is now trash while Luck is now the best QB in the league or something.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Never said RG3 was "trash". But I've never considered him in the same league. I think he'll be an entertaining player for the 'Skins, he'll have some amazing performance. BUt Luck is inching closer and closer to top 10, in my opinion. 8 games into his career, there are already very few QBs I'd rather have over Luck, especially in the 2-min drill, when the team absolutely needs to make plays.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

It's a miracle this team is 5-3 with rookies everywhere, including at QB. It's a miracle Luck is in such control of the game. It's unbelievable he set the rookie passing record with that O-Line and with the receiver corp he has at his disposal.

I'm not even a big Colts fan. Luck is making me more interested. The kid is a brain and a stud with all the physical tools wrapped up into one QB. Indy is so fortunate.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No, not joking. Before the season it was *consensus* that the 'Skins had more team around RG3. He *still* does. I'm convinced of that. Luck has nothing but rooks and practice squad players, and we lose guys on a weekly basis. We lost 3 guys today just during the game, crucial guys (Satele C, Mathis, and one of our tackles). We lost our 2nd best receiver for the year. Fleener was gone. VDavis was gone (our best DB). He's throwing to: Hilton (rookie), Allen (rookie), Hall (rookie), Avery (hasn't done **** in this league, was picked up off his couch), and then Wayne. I'm not saying the 'Skins is better than ours, but it's not worse, either. And Luck isn't leaning solely on Wayne, he had 100+ yards to one rookie receiver and Avery, the couch receiver, today.

You want Luck to play C, TE, CB, LB, Tackle, and DE? Because at any given moment, we're on our 2nd and 3rd stringers there. Opposing teams reside in Luck's face, so don't sit there and tell me RG3 has worse protection. Luck is making these completions with some of the leagues top defenders draped all over him.

Yes, it's excuse making. The 'Skins have no excuse. Can't even sit here and tell me a line that hosts one of the league's best rushing attacks that they are "full of holes". What does Luck have? Absolutely ZERO rushing attack. Can whine all ya want about the 'Skins line, but the only reason the league doesn't regard Indy's line as worse is because Luck is so damn good at getting rid of the ball and escaping pressure.

Not to mention --- RG3 has MIKE SHANAHAN. Luck's coach is a rookie coach, spends most of his time in the hospital, barely able to move. We're leaning on Arians, who was just fired last year. The situation for Indy is absolutely nuts.

The only reason we are even close to sniffing the playoffs is because of one guy --- Andrew Luck. Take that guy out of the equation, and we're a 1-win team right now, at best.

I think our coaching staff is underrated. We have played strong throughout the season with exceptions in the two blowout losses. Our defense has done a decent job all year of not allowing teams to completely run away with games. Luck is a huge part of our resurgence but he's far from the ONLY reason for it.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I think our coaching staff is underrated. We have played strong throughout the season with exceptions in the two blowout losses. Our defense has done a decent job all year of not allowing teams to completely run away with games. Luck is a huge part of our resurgence but he's far from the ONLY reason for it.

It is underrated, but it's *still* a brand new system, a buncha guys who are completely new to their positions and the organization, and our main guy can't even focus on football right now. So while it has the potential to be a good one, right now it's a green crew, working through circumstances out of their control. The coaching situation between the two teams, to me, isn't even close. The 'Skins have experience and *health* on their side.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No, not joking. Before the season it was *consensus* that the 'Skins had more team around RG3. He *still* does. I'm convinced of that. Luck has nothing but rooks and practice squad players, and we lose guys on a weekly basis. We lost 3 guys today just during the game, crucial guys (Satele C, Mathis, and one of our tackles). We lost our 2nd best receiver for the year. Fleener was gone. VDavis was gone (our best DB). He's throwing to: Hilton (rookie), Allen (rookie), Hall (rookie), Avery (hasn't done **** in this league, was picked up off his couch), and then Wayne. I'm not saying the 'Skins is better than ours, but it's not worse, either. And Luck isn't leaning solely on Wayne, he had 100+ yards to one rookie receiver and Avery, the couch receiver, today.

You want to go tit for tat, I can do that.

Garcon - out 6 weeks, probably out for season
Fred Davis - out for season
Orakpo
Carriker
Merriweather - suspended for year

Our QB is throwing to Banks (a joke of a WR), Hankerson, Moss (who is old and barely serviceable)

I never said we had it better or worse. But lets not act like RG3 has all this talent to work with around him. And I ignored all of our offensive line injuries (or just plain sucking)

You want Luck to play C, TE, CB, LB, Tackle, DT, and DE? Because at any given moment, we're on our 2nd and 3rd and even 4th stringers there. Opposing teams reside in Luck's face, so don't sit there and tell me RG3 has worse protection. Luck is making these completions with some of the leagues top defenders draped all over him.

RG3 is getting worse protection. FACT. Congrats that Luck is able to handle it better. He ran a pro offense in college (also a fact). Doesnt change the fact our line couldnt stop a 3 man rush.

Yes, it's excuse making. The 'Skins have no excuse. Can't even sit here and tell me a line that hosts one of the league's best rushing attacks that they are "full of holes". What does Luck have? Absolutely ZERO rushing attack. Can whine all ya want about the 'Skins line, but the only reason the league doesn't regard Indy's line as worse is because Luck is so damn good at getting rid of the ball and escaping pressure.

A scheme that allows damn near any lineman to look good, and Shanny has made a nact of making any RB look good. You can whine all you want that the Skins have this great line, but that is simply false. A great line, hell a GOOD line can handle a 3 man rush. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Not to mention --- RG3 has MIKE SHANAHAN, legendary coach. Luck's coach is a rookie coach, spends most of his time in the hospital, barely able to move. We're leaning on Arians, who was just fired last year. The situation for Indy is absolutely nuts.

No arguing that point. Though I have been less and less impressed with Shanny.

The only reason we are even close to sniffing the playoffs is because of one guy --- Andrew Luck. Take that guy out of the equation, and we're a 1-win team right now, at best.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Garcon - out 6 weeks, probably out for season
Fred Davis - out for season
Orakpo
Carriker
Merriweather - suspended for year

Our QB is throwing to Banks (a joke of a WR), Hankerson, Moss (who is old and barely serviceable)

I never said we had it better or worse. But lets not act like RG3 has all this talent to work with around him. And I ignored all of our offensive line injuries (or just plain sucking)

RG3 is getting worse protection. FACT. Congrats that Luck is able to handle it better. He ran a pro offense in college (also a fact). Doesnt change the fact our line couldnt stop a 3 man rush.

And that's exactly what I'm saying, 'Skins fans keep pointing to two things: their receivers and their line, when it comes to addressing RG3's woes. Luck has no better. That's my entire point. It's bad for both these guys. But the difference is how each QB is handling it.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Never said RG3 was "trash". But I've never considered him in the same league. I think he'll be an entertaining player for the 'Skins, he'll have some amazing performance. BUt Luck is inching closer and closer to top 10, in my opinion. 8 games into his career, there are already very few QBs I'd rather have over Luck, especially in the 2-min drill, when the team absolutely needs to make plays.

And if RG3 is only a "good" QB, I can take that. We dont need the next Aaron Rodgers, though that would be nice.

If you ignore the trash and the people talking out their ***, I think you can see most people recognize Luck as having a huge plus from running a pro system in college.

My objection falls in this notion that the league has "figured" out RG3. If that is the case, then guys like Vick and even Cam to an extent would have one year careers and be done because they would not be able to do anything.

We will see how long both last, and how much success they have. I can tell you one thing for sure, RG3 will not last running a option system. That said, he has made it work so far and it looked good today. Every week they say the NFL will figure him out, and every week he surprises us (me at least) but picking apart defenses.

I am more worried about injuries from him trying to do too much, which I have already seen him mature at. That and him not being allowed to devop his game because they wont let his sit in the pocket. But at least we saw some of that today

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Okay, I'll agree that I don't think RG3 will get figured out as easily as Cam. I'm talking more about the system that they've installed there in Wash. I think that system is going to have to be modified heavily, and RG3 will have to change his game quite a bit in order to adjust to the adjustments that defenses are making.

He's not having to make near as many reads, and Ds will address his runs quickly enough. It's easier for defenses to make adjustments to him. But like the wildcat a few years ago, when it exploded out of the gate and the league had no answer.... well, it got figured out 8 games later, and then the wildcat disappeared again.

And the stuff they've plugged RG3 into... just boggles my mind. He's out there on goal-line situations, gettin his head knocked off, and running deep out routes to catch a pass by his receiver who can't catch the ball, and gets his head knocked off. Those are gimmicks and very ill-advised ones.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-04-2012 at 09:59 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Okay, I'll agree that I don't think RG3 will get figured out as easily as Cam. I'm talking more about the system that they've installed there in Wash. I think that system is going to have to be modified heavily, and RG3 will have to change his game quite a bit in order to adjust to the adjustments that defenses are making.

Hell, I have been saying that since I saw the wishbone.

I think RG3 has the "tools" to succeed. But running the option does 2 things. 1. Gets you some instant success by catching teams off guard" and 2. Gets your players about a 99.999% change of getting killed.

No whether or not those tools come to fruition is yet to be seen. I doubt Kyle S. goes anywhere as long as daddy is coach, but the last 3 weeks I have really soured on this offensive scheme (defense as well).

Granted, we all knew going into this year we had many holes. I just think many fans (myself included) were delusional about how much of an impact RG3 would have. Sure injuries hurt, but this team has big issues from the top down. And no one player can fix that.

FWIW, I actually think Luck would be getting killed just as bad in our system. Time will tell though. Maybe in the bye week our coaches decide to actually.....not run these weird options and actually move the ball down field. Of course that would require our line to hold a block more then .02 seconds and a damned receivers to catch the ball that its then right on the money.

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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I absolutely agree that Luck would be getting killed, but I might also contend that if Shanahan is as smart as I think he is, he'd recognize Lucks' ability to absorb a playbook and run a pro-style offense, and then you guys might not even be running the same offense in DC. I'd be hardpressed to see Luck executing the same type of offense, it's hard to fathom.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I like Luck more than RG3 (obviously I have some biases but still), and I know perfectly well how many disadvantages Luck is going up against, but lets not forget what we have:

Reggie Wayne has been huge, absolutely HUGE for Luck. I don't think we'd even be .500 without him (and Collie!). He's basically the only receiver than consistently gets separation and refuses to drop the ball. Since Pierre Garcon and Fred Davis are out of the equation, RG3 is left to throw to an over the hill Santana Moss and Leonard Hankerson who is pretty bad. Both of these have been prone to dropping, (Santana Moss on a 3rd down, Hankerson on a sure TD pass). RG3 would definitely look better throwing to a future HoF receiver.

I don't know the Redskins that well so I'm not too sure about their O-Line, but as far as defenses go, theirs is just as bad as ours IMO. Their safeties have been absolutely abysmal. DeAngelo Hall plays for them. DeAngelo Hall is completely worthless.

I'm not saying RG3 would be better or just as good as Luck if these holes were filled up, hell I freaking love watching Luck play, but I don't think it is necessarily fair to overlook the Redskins's issues just because the general consensus at the start of the season was that they were a better team than the Colts.

At this point all I can say for sure is that both of these QB's clearly belong in the NFL (I don't buy that "The league has figured out RG3" stuff for a second) and I think we're all going to enjoy watching these guys for a long time.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I absolutely agree that Luck would be getting killed, but I might also contend that if Shanahan is as smart as I think he is, he'd recognize Lucks' ability to absorb a playbook and run a pro-style offense, and then you guys might not even be running the same offense in DC. I'd be hardpressed to see Luck executing the same type of offense, it's hard to fathom.

You give young Shanny a lot of credit. More then I do.

For the record I would pay a dollar to see Luck run the option out of the gun. If nothing else, the shock factor from the defense would be priceless

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

This thread is getting more sensible for some reason, I just can't put my finger on it as to why. I am impressed with how well Luck has done with this team in his first season, but I'm worried that the national media will switch their attention from RG3 and start riding Luck's jock if we keep up in the playoff picture.

Last edited by DGPR; 11-04-2012 at 10:22 PM.

"I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about." - Peter Griffin

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

It was definitely common perception before the season that Redskins had a better team than the Colts. Colts were the worst team last year. Not sure where the Redskins finished last year but they weren't near as bad and had to trade to get the 2nd pick.

Plus, our resident troll spent the whole summer telling us how much better RG3 and the 'skins were going to be than the Colts.

So that is where the thought process came from that RG3 is doing less with more.

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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Griffin needs to stop doing that or else he will be out of the league before the end of the decade. That is an awful decision for a QB. With Griffin's size and his running I would be worried about durability. 1 concussion already.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

This thread is getting more sensible for some reason, I just can't put my finger on it as to why.

I can.

And I agree.

I think RG3 is more than good enough to be a great great NFL player. He makes excellent passes, is very accurate, and is pretty smart himself. I think Shanahan is holding him back with the poor playcalling and getting RG3 into situations he shouldn't be in.

Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Griffin needs to stop doing that or else he will be out of the league before the end of the decade. That is an awful decision for a QB. With Griffin's size and his running I would be worried about durability. 1 concussion already.

Have to wonder what he was thinking. Jumping for a few yards isn't worth that risk, especially when it's not for a touchdown. Hopefully the coaching staff pulled him aside after that.