Scott, my reply was shortly after you posted the pic of the reticles with the dots for aim points and we were talking 800 yards. I will use some numbers here for my 300 win with 210's at 2995 fps. Which does a pretty good job on wind. So you wold be looking at about a 14 moa hold over and for 7 mph wind about 2 moa. To me that puts your dot for hold out there in "no mans land" basically trying to line up with two planes out there on a blank page. Plus in some cases or maybe even most cases you would be between subtensions. Do I misunderstand that you feel you could do well on this shot at 800 and would use it on game? I would not like the fact I didnt have any sighting point and would feel this shot was very risky. Or am I missing something here?

Thanks
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I think we are agreeing here. If wind is added to the equation my point was that with the OP's reticle, the PST graduated reticle, there aren't any hold points for windage once you start dropping down the main vertical stadia line so it makes that shot difficult. But I also added that there were other reticles that offer windage holds ( like the Razor reticles, the new Viper HS reticle coming out this fall, and the Premiere XR reticle to give you some examples) that would make a shot like you described very doable IMO.

Having said that, I want to clarify a couple things. I personally find my comfort zone out to about 5-600 yards with the reticle. At this distance the wind is not quite the factor and atmospheric conditions don't have enough impact on POI to worry too much about. So it really is basic shooting to that distance. For anything further I would dial in my dopes so I have an exact aiming point. At least I would dial for my elevation dope. I still hold for windage most of the time even on longer shots. If I am shooting in desert country or somewhere where there is a real consistent wind I will sometimes dial in the windage but most of the places I shoot is mountainous and has variable wind conditions with multiple wind factors that I have to deal with, ie up drafts, cirlcing winds in canyons, etc. I have just found it much easier to hold for wind when I know I may be making subtle changes a few times before I get a shot off. Also, and I think you and I have talked about this before, but I mostly shoot big game out to about a 1/2 mile or so. I know you shoot much further than this and I believe that this fact alone makes a difference in what you and I deem necessary to make a successful shot.

I know you are skeptical about this reticle concept but with practice it isn't really that big of a deal to hold between hash marks most of the time. The reticle I posted is a good example. His reticle is a 2 MOA reticle and he needed to hold for 21.5 MOA for the 800 yard shot. 21.5 MOA is 3/4 of the way between the 2 hash marks. At least for me, with the imperial system of measurements that we are used to in the US, it is very easy and intuitive for me to split things into quarters visually. Since this is what each click of the turret is accomplishing, doing this with the reticle essentially brings about the same amount of potential accuracy. Now I know that you have a specific aim point if you dial in and use the center cross hairs but when using the reticle your brain gets really good at using the surrounding stadia lines to anchor you into position when you are holding between stadia lines. I am not sure if that last comment makes sense but it really does work.

Thanks for the explanation Scott. You are correct, the distance of the shot is the big difference. But even on the 800 yard shot we are talking about I feel hitting a milk jug would be a challenge without dialing with any wind over 5 mph. But I am glad to see your personal distance is much shorter for a shot like that and agree 500 or 600 would be more doable.

I understand your method with wind hold. but still feel better dialing. I don't care what reticle it is. The reason I say that is there will be no lines for a point of aim when holding both for wind and elevation. Again, doable if you keep it realed in on distances.

One thing I should point out. I will get dialed in (both wind and elev.) and in a few cases I will simply crowd or relax my windage point of aim depending on wind speed as I break the trigger. I have an moa reticle right there pasted on the animal and know what each moa is in inches. This allows me to see the animal, its vital area and the reticle all at once. By simply moving my point of aim a 1/2 moa or so I can play the wind at the moment of the shot, plus I can see where I feel the impact could be if I am off. This allows me to make the best call for placement in terms of " what if I'm off a bit". It puts the odds in my favor so to speak. I would find this a lot harder or maybe even not doable with out that precise point of aim I am always talking about. Anyway, this is what works for us.

Thanks for the explanation Scott. You are correct, the distance of the shot is the big difference. But even on the 800 yard shot we are talking about I feel hitting a milk jug would be a challenge without dialing with any wind over 5 mph. But I am glad to see your personal distance is much shorter for a shot like that and agree 500 or 600 would be more doable.

I understand your method with wind hold. but still feel better dialing. I don't care what reticle it is. The reason I say that is there will be no lines for a point of aim when holding both for wind and elevation. Again, doable if you keep it realed in on distances.

One thing I should point out. I will get dialed in (both wind and elev.) and in a few cases I will simply crowd or relax my windage point of aim depending on wind speed as I break the trigger. I have an moa reticle right there pasted on the animal and know what each moa is in inches. This allows me to see the animal, its vital area and the reticle all at once. By simply moving my point of aim a 1/2 moa or so I can play the wind at the moment of the shot, plus I can see where I feel the impact could be if I am off. This allows me to make the best call for placement in terms of " what if I'm off a bit". It puts the odds in my favor so to speak. I would find this a lot harder or maybe even not doable with out that precise point of aim I am always talking about. Anyway, this is what works for us.

Jeff

I bet the BOTW and Long Range Pursuit shows just drive you crazy huh? Again, I understand your skepticism. For over 20 years I did nothing but dial so I came at the reticle use from a similar perspective to you. I guess I would just say that with practice it becomes more intuitive than you think it would.

Here is an example of a reticle style that would allow for accurate windage holds.
It is Vortex's new reticle and seems very well setup to handle elevation and windage holds at the same time. I think your point is that you can still end up holding between the lines for both elevation and windage so you are still out in no-mans land even with this reticle. But my point would be that even in this scenario your mind gets good at using the stadia lines around the aim point as a bracketing type system that really locks your POA in place. As accurate as holding dead on, no I don't beleive it is. But is it accurate enough for big game hunting out to the 5-600 yard range? Yes, for me it is.

Man, is that reticle for real?? It makes me dizzy looking at it and screams "you are on the wrong point" to me. Although I am sure there are shooters that when they see this would request to be lone with it for a while.

I simply could not use it. Too much there. I would prefer to watch the animal close and maybe pick up on wind movement in its hair or direction of the steam from its breath for a little more wind knowledge. Not look at it through some chicken wire.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. We are on the same page now as we have realed it in to a common point of 500~600 yards is a good percentage shot for a dual hold. But I will still dial and dump.

One more thing to add, I'm sure you all know but I'll state this for others that may not and are reading this.....when using a reticle hold you better have either a first focal plane reticle our dial the exact same magnification every time....most of the lower and middle range scopes out there have second focal plane reticles and there is a big difference between the stadia wires at say X5 -vs- X10....just more things to consider.

I shoot Leupold Mk4's with the TMR reticle in the second plane and have worked out similar reticle holds on the lowest power settings....where I carry it while hunting, but agree with Broz....on a long range shot if you have time to crank up your scope maginfication....you have time to dial the dope.

Man, is that reticle for real?? It makes me dizzy looking at it and screams "you are on the wrong point" to me. Although I am sure there are shooters that when they see this would request to be lone with it for a while.

I simply could not use it. Too much there. I would prefer to watch the animal close and maybe pick up on wind movement in its hair or direction of the steam from its breath for a little more wind knowledge. Not look at it through some chicken wire.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. We are on the same page now as we have realed it in to a common point of 500~600 yards is a good percentage shot for a dual hold. But I will still dial and dump.

Jeff

That reticle is way too busy for my personal taste.

When I settle down to make a long shot, the fewer distractions I have, the better.

I also spot and provide backup for my son. A busy reticle can really make it hard to spot.

Leupold's varmint reticle and Nikon's BDC are more or less ok for quick shots on varmints or hogs inside 500yds. But, I prefer to dial if given a chance.