marymarauder10

thumperchick wrote:I think for some people, faith is like being born colorblind. If you have it, you understand it - and you can try to explain it, but if you don't have it, you can't understand it fully.

(Expand this to people who experience anything we quantify as "supernatural" or what have you.)

darkchylde13

To add to my previous comment, I will freely admit that it is a little bit overly concise in its description of Christianity, but the basics are there. That being said I have nothing against most Christians or any one else for that matter. I judge people on their actions and treatment of others, as I would expect anyone to judge me. I know some very amazing religious and non-religious people and being religious does not make those people any more or less amazing. Good people are good people, simple as that. Unfortunately though, another principle behind many religions is the requirement that you "spread the word", that you need to save others. It is this part that gets annoying I think. Much as it is annoying when people try to push political beliefs or any other kind of beliefs on us. In many religions we are taught that if we are not "saving others" or at least trying to, we are failing, and that is a hard and unfair place to be in. And as stated before, do any of the religious people out there ever stop to think that it is an undeniable truth that if you had been born in some other country, that you would very likely be practicing some other religion instead, and that you would believe just as strongly that that religion is the right one and that all other religions are wrong, including the one you believe so strongly in right now. I know many of the very strong believers will claim something like "but god made me be born here so that I was taught "the right religion", but what about all of those people who were born somewhere else to be taught "the right religion" to them "wrong religion" to you. Or did your god just not care about them. Or is it your job on this earth to teach them that your religion is the right one? That's how the holy wars got started. See how messy this becomes...

abogges1

FreePlayPSP wrote:Yeah... no. Here's the thing. Accountability does not exist in the Christian moral system. The single deciding factor that determines whether you are rewarded or punished is your belief in Jesus, not your behavior. Your behavior is totally irrelevant. You could live a life of moral depravity and debauchery, killing every other human being on the planet, and then repent and become a Christian the moment before you die - and you'll be welcomed to the loving arms of God, given a mansion in heaven where you will be free from pain and suffering forever. Meanwhile, a pious believer in another religion could devote her entire life to helping those who suffer, are less fortunate, are oppressed, and so on. Then, when she dies, she gets agony and everlasting torment in a lake of fire.

There is no justice in this system. No accountability. Only madness. You can be more evil than Hitler and escape punishment; you can be the biggest saint who ever lived and be tortured for it.

Meanwhile, atheists want to actually hold human beings accountable while they're alive. You know... the only life anyone actually knows we have. The only time we can be sure that anyone gets justice or punishment as fits their behavior.

By the way, if your moral compass is defined by the God of the Old Testament, I don't want you anywhere near me. I can't be sure that you're not going to obey his command to invade my city and slaughter everyone who lives in it, save for the virgins who you'll take as your "wives". The moral standard exhibited by God and his chosen people in the Bible is not one any civilized person should consider worth obeying.

bsmith1

Ok... Say a person survives a bad car crash and it's deemed to be a miracle. There are scientists working to explain how the human body repairs itself in such situations. There are others who crash test cars to see how things react. There are emergency response personnel who use the latest and greatest techniques to save the person. All that could speak to how it wasn't a miracle of god.

What is being done in order to prove it was a miracle of god? Additionally, why would god allow the car to crash in the first place just for him to step in with a miracle? As the movie The Invention of Lying said, if god causes all good things to happen, he must also be responsible for all the bad things.
"He's the guy that saved my life on that fishing trip when the boat capsized?"
"Yes"
"Did he capsize the boat?"
"...yeah"

marymarauder10

bsmith1 wrote:If you're making the claim that something exists, the burden of proof is on you to come up with convincing evidence.

I'm defending my belief that God exists and have the "burden of proof", while you're defending your belief that God does not exist and you have no "burden of proof"? I don't think so. We have equal "burden of proof" when we are defending what we believe in.

theco2

thumperchick wrote:I think for some people, faith is like being born colorblind. If you have it, you understand it - and you can try to explain it, but if you don't have it, you can't understand it fully.

(Expand this to people who experience anything we quantify as "supernatural" or what have you.)

Either you have it and get it, or you don't have it and don't get it.

Oh, I understand it. I also understand the bible and religion and the whole "god" thing. I was raised in a very christian family, but always had unanswered questions. When I would ask those questions, they would always respond to them with something like, "god wanted it that way," or something similar, which lead to more unanswered questions, with the same type of response.
It's a big vicious circle and if you don't know the answer, it's always just "god."

theco2

marymarauder10 wrote:I'm defending my belief that God exists and have the "burden of proof", while you're defending your belief that God does not exist and you have no "burden of proof"? I don't think so. We have equal "burden of proof" when we are defending what we believe in.

Prove to me Invisible Pink Unicorns don't exist.
I have a tattoo that proves they do.

darkchylde13

I think the interesting part here is that some people choose to want some sort of proof for everything, not just whether god exists, but it holds true in every other scenario as well, such as the million dollars or flag on the moon scenario, we believe (or mostly believe) when we see some sort of evidence that supports it, not just because there is a lack of evidence to disprove it. There are any number of things that cannot actually be disproved, spiderman, the hulk, thor, the loch ness monster, bigfoot, aliens, santa clause, the tooth fairy, the gods of olympus, other religions beliefs for that matter. And most people tend not to believe in those things. Why is it that some people choose to make an exception to one claim in particular, even though when fully considered, the claim is no less far fetched than many of the other ones...? People will completely disregard other religions beliefs as false, even though they can't be disproved either but still stand steadfast to the belief that theirs exists and is correct. It is this kind of contradictory behavior that non-religious people cannot grasp. How can you be so certain that your religion exists and is correct, when you completely disregard or disbelieve other things that meet the same criteria you use to choose to believe in something...?

bsmith1

marymarauder10 wrote:I'm defending my belief that God exists and have the "burden of proof", while you're defending your belief that God does not exist and you have no "burden of proof"? I don't think so. We have equal "burden of proof" when we are defending what we believe in.

I guess I should say I'm not an atheist. More of an agnostic. I don't know what is out there. Because I don't know and have no proof, I'm not going to make claims that I do know. I'm just saying the preachings of organized religions aren't based on facts. You shouldn't live your life by (and encourage others to live by) something you're not sure of. You definitely shouldn't claim people will burn for eternity if they don't believe the same as you.

pluggwolf

bpfordte wrote:I've found that those that deny the existence of God are usually just looking for a way to avoid accountability. Our moral compass is defined by God, but if you take God out of the equation then our morals are defined by ourselves - flawed, and sinful humans. You think God created us to sleep with the same sex or kill our unborn? No, those are the result of humans trying to define morality.

Just a side note: I believe that those that believe there is a God, but don't believe in His Son, Jesus, as their Savior are just as lost as those that deny the existence of God completely. The Devil believes there is a God, but it's not going to get him out of hell.

Our Morals are ultimately defined by ourselves. If we all went around doing exactly as it is described in the bible we would all have polygamous relationships, slaves, have sold our daughters off as property, not be wearing mixed fabric clothing, not getting our haircut, not eating shellfish, the list goes on. Morals are defined by you. As a person. Right and wrong are not key cards into paradise or damnation but the only thing separating order and chaos. Without them the world as we know it would cease to exist. Not because of gods will. But because we all would have killed one another.

You also need to see that morals are unique to each individual. You may not think it's right to kill someone. Some other person may think it is. He's going to jail. Why? Because his morals are different than ours. And why are his punishable and ours not? Because his are not conducive to an ordered society.

Frankly the plain and simple fact is that one of us is wrong. And I would rather live my life to the fullest instead of cowering in fear of an omnipotent being that has no substantial proof of existing. Religion is another thing to explain the question of "Where do we come from?" and frankly, I don't give a damn where we come from. Just that I love life. I'm not a bad guy. I live. And if I end up being wrong and your God condemns me for that then he's not exactly the kind of person i would want to spend my time with anyway. He sounds like a prick.

bsmith1

theco2 wrote:Prove to me Invisible Pink Unicorns don't exist.
I have a tattoo that proves they do.

Right! If you don't follow the unicorn's demands he'll run you through with his golden horn! Prove that he won't! You better do as he says! Let's spread the teachings of the pink unicorn to all corners of the world; the unicorn demands it! We should let the unicorn influence our laws even if people don't believe in him! It's for your own good.

theco2

I don't actually need proof of anything. There is nothing to prove, so why try to prove it? I'm just making a point.

pluggwolf wrote:Our Morals are ultimately defined by ourselves. If we all went around doing exactly as it is described in the bible we would all have polygamous relationships, slaves, have sold our daughters off as property, not be wearing mixed fabric clothing, not getting our haircut, not eating shellfish, the list goes on. Morals are defined by you. As a person. Right and wrong are not key cards into paradise or damnation but the only thing separating order and chaos. Without them the world as we know it would cease to exist. Not because of gods will. But because we all would have killed one another.

You also need to see that morals are unique to each individual. You may not think it's right to kill someone. Some other person may think it is. He's going to jail. Why? Because his morals are different than ours. And why are his punishable and ours not? Because his are not conducive to an ordered society.

Frankly the plain and simple fact is that one of us is wrong. And I would rather live my life to the fullest instead of cowering in fear of an omnipotent being that has no substantial proof of existing. Religion is another thing to explain the question of "Where do we come from?" and frankly, I don't give a damn where we come from. Just that I love life. I'm not a bad guy. I live. And if I end up being wrong and your God condemns me for that then he's not exactly the kind of person i would want to spend my time with anyway. He sounds like a prick.

marymarauder10

bsmith1 wrote:Ok... Say a person survives a bad car crash and it's deemed to be a miracle. There are scientists working to explain how the human body repairs itself in such situations. There are others who crash test cars to see how things react. There are emergency response personnel who use the latest and greatest techniques to save the person. All that could speak to how it wasn't a miracle of god.

What is being done in order to prove it was a miracle of god? Additionally, why would god allow the car to crash in the first place just for him to step in with a miracle? As the movie The Invention of Lying said, if god causes all good things to happen, he must also be responsible for all the bad things.
"He's the guy that saved my life on that fishing trip when the boat capsized?"
"Yes"
"Did he capsize the boat?"
"...yeah"

I'm not talking about cases where the emt take a defibrillator and shock the guy back to life. That's not a "miracle". I'm talking about the cases where there isn't anything showing that modern medical equipment had anything to do with their survival or when someone is on the operating table dead and 4 minutes later...after they're pronounced dead...they suddenly start breathing again...And once again we're back to square 1. You can keep coming up with cases where someone was saved by modern medicine/equipment, and that's great, but those aren't the miracles I'm talking about. As for the "Why does God let bad things happen" argument. Just because it feels bad for you doesn't mean that it's bad for everyone. In your example, the guys boat capsizes. Maybe that's God's way of showing this guy to appreciate life, or to not go out in a storm...

theco2

bsmith1 wrote:Right! If you don't follow the unicorn's demands he'll run you through with his golden horn! Prove that he won't! You better do as he says! Let's spread the teachings of the pink unicorn to all corners of the world; the unicorn demands it! We should let the unicorn influence our laws even if people don't believe in him! It's for your own good.

Blessed be her holy hooves! May they never be shod.

Edit: IPU is a female. I can prove that, also, but don't ask how I know.

pluggwolf

marymarauder10 wrote:I'm defending my belief that God exists and have the "burden of proof", while you're defending your belief that God does not exist and you have no "burden of proof"? I don't think so. We have equal "burden of proof" when we are defending what we believe in.

Frankly as the person trying to prove something the burden falls more to you. I can say this chair sitting next me exists. If I can't show you that the chair exists. If I can't prove to you that the chair exists than why should you have to prove my chair does not exist?

Granted I can prove a chair exists. It is here. I can feel it. See it. Smell it. Taste it. Hear it. I can observe the chair with all of me senses. So can other people. Thus proving that I am not the only person seeing the chair.

That is the basis I work on for proof. If I cannot observe it. If I cannot provide others with my observations and have them observe the same thing. Then I have no proof.

Granted. I have no proof that your god does not exist. All I have is the fact that I cannot observe him. I cannot use my five senses to prove that he is there. That's all the proof I need for myself. Thus I don't believe.

marymarauder10

pluggwolf wrote:Frankly as the person trying to prove something the burden falls more to you. I can say this chair sitting next me exists. If I can't show you that the chair exists. If I can't prove to you that the chair exists than why should you have to prove my chair does not exist?

Granted I can prove a chair exists. It is here. I can feel it. See it. Smell it. Taste it. Hear it. I can observe the chair with all of me senses. So can other people. Thus proving that I am not the only person seeing the chair.

That is the basis I work on for proof. If I cannot observe it. If I cannot provide others with my observations and have them observe the same thing. Then I have no proof.

Granted. I have no proof that your god does not exist. All I have is the fact that I cannot observe him. I cannot use my five senses to prove that he is there. That's all the proof I need for myself. Thus I don't believe.

Yes, I'm trying to prove that my God exists. However, there are others trying to prove that He doesn't exist. We're both trying to "prove" something. Not just me. You say your chair exists and that you can prove it. Your proof is that you can touch it and see it. I can't. So going by your standards of "since I can't see or touch it" it doesn't exist.

theco2

marymarauder10 wrote:Yes, I'm trying to prove that my God exists. However, there are others trying to prove that He doesn't exist. We're both trying to "prove" something. Not just me. You say your chair exists and that you can prove it. Your proof is that you can touch it and see it. I can't. So going by your standards of "since I can't see or touch it" it doesn't exist.

I believe he is sitting on the floor. Pluggwolf, you better post a picture of your chair.

pluggwolf

marymarauder10 wrote:Yes, I'm trying to prove that my God exists. However, there are others trying to prove that He doesn't exist. We're both trying to "prove" something. Not just me. You say your chair exists and that you can prove it. Your proof is that you can touch it and see it. I can't. So going by your standards of "since I can't see or touch it" it doesn't exist.

By my standards if I cannot observe something using my five sense then, no. It does not exist. I have no way to prove that it does, I only have the belief that it exists. Which is just that. A belief. It isn't proof. It's a thought and nothing more.

bryanvagis

The religion debate is a topic that always fascinates me. I don't like to consider myself on one side or another, just an outsider looking in. I don't need to follow a religion in order to believe in right and wrong and moral values. I believe that if you are a good person, more good things will happen in your favor than if you are not a good person. That is a simple rule, but it is what keeps my 'moral compass' pointed in the right direction.

With that said, I believe that religion is a very good thing. Not only is it a multi-trillion dollar industry, and economy booster, but it gives those who choose to follow it a more meaningful purpose. If there was no religion to tell billions of people the difference between right and wrong, there would be a lot more nut-jobs out there making this world a much scarier place. The thought of what happens after you die is a very scary thought. It is much easier to just write that one off as "If I am a good person, I will go to heaven". I am ok with that.

Does god exist? I don't know. I don't have to know. I am ok with not knowing because no matter what, when I do die, I will be remembered as a good person. I will teach my children the difference between right and wrong. If they should choose to believe in one religion or another, that is entirely up to them. Don't force your views on me and I won't force mine on you. But if I have a flat tire on the side of the road and I don't have a jack, give me a hand. I would surely give you one.

marymarauder10

pluggwolf wrote:By my standards if I cannot observe something using my five sense then, no. It does not exist. I have no way to prove that it does, I only have the belief that it exists. Which is just that. A belief. It isn't proof. It's a thought and nothing more.

I've said this entire time that it's my "belief". Have you not caught that? I believe that He exist. You, evidently believe that He does not. I'm not trying to make you believe he does. I'm just saying that there's nothing you can say that will make me believe He doesn't.

marymarauder10

bryanvagis wrote: Don't force your views on me and I won't force mine on you. But if I have a flat tire on the side of the road and I don't have a jack, give me a hand. I would surely give you one.

I feel the same way. If you have questions about my views, I'll try to answer them the best I can. If you don't, then that's that. The topic doesn't need to go any further. I try to be a good person. I'll admit that I've not always shown kindness when I should have, but I try and that's what I ask of the people I keep company with. Try to be a good person and offer and hand when you can and you're alright in my book.

pluggwolf

marymarauder10 wrote:Wouldn't matter if he/she posted a picture. There's nothing proving that they didn't just get the picture from the internet. Therefore, once again going by their theory, it doesn't exist...

What if I put a sign on the chair? With your name and time stamp or something?

marymarauder10

pluggwolf wrote:What if I put a sign on the chair? With your name and time stamp or something?

If I put a picture on here of me standing next to Jesus, would you believe it and take it as proof? I highly doubt it. Sure, you could put my name and a timestamp on it, but then how can you prove that it's not just photoshopped?

theco2

marymarauder10 wrote:If I put a picture on here of me standing next to Jesus, would you believe it and take it as proof? I highly doubt it. Sure, you could put my name and a timestamp on it, but then how can you prove that it's not just photoshopped?

How would we know it's Jesus? I'm pretty sure the images of Jesus are just what people want you to believe he looked like. Did Jesus really exist? Maybe... Was he a white man, living in the Middle East? Probably not!

pluggwolf

marymarauder10 wrote:If I put a picture on here of me standing next to Jesus, would you believe it and take it as proof? I highly doubt it. Sure, you could put my name and a timestamp on it, but then how can you prove that it's not just photoshopped?

That'd be a really good photoshop job. But maybe I do have those skills, you never know.

gcraney

bpfordte wrote:I've found that those that deny the existence of God are usually just looking for a way to avoid accountability. Our moral compass is defined by God, but if you take God out of the equation then our morals are defined by ourselves - flawed, and sinful humans. You think God created us to sleep with the same sex or kill our unborn? No, those are the result of humans trying to define morality.

Just a side note: I believe that those that believe there is a God, but don't believe in His Son, Jesus, as their Savior are just as lost as those that deny the existence of God completely. The Devil believes there is a God, but it's not going to get him out of hell.

But doesn't God shoulder the accountability for many things rather than the people he watches over? When someone recovers from cancer, it was God, not their strength and perseverance/will to live.

As society gradually opens it's eyes to the falseness of religion, more accountability is shouldered by each individual.

Listen to Elizabeth Gilbert's speech about creativity on TED Talks. She calls for a movement back to believing that creativity originates from a spiritual force because the accountability from NOT being religious is too great for creatives to bear.

This moral compass you speak of was not created by God. It was created by men that existed at a time, in a society, far outdated by our current situation.

dymongoose

Proving a negative is impossible 99% of the timeSorry fellow Christians, but the argument "Prove God doesn't exist" will never hold any substance - not because God does exist, but because it's a logical fallacy. One simply cannot prove that (subject) doesn't/didn't/never (debated action). The only way that this can be done (that remaining 1%) is with a positive proof of a contradiction.

"I'm a Christian!" =/= "I am a follower of Christ"Anyone in a free-speech country can claim to be a Christian. I could claim to be a cardboard box, if I wanted to, but that doesn't make it actually true.
So many people that claim to be Christians have no idea what the Bible actually says about what they claim to believe. There are people who claim Christianity as a cultural label (I'm from a Christian country/family). There are people who claim it as an attempt to belong to something. There are people who claim it as a religion, but have been taught something contrary to the faith that they claim - sometimes it's something dangerous to their eternal souls, sometimes it's something dangerous to the church. And then there are some people (I believe), who claim it in a direct attempt to slander the name of Christ through their horrible actions "in the name of God".
The Bible even says that on the day of judgement - after this world is ended - many religious "Christians" will plead their cases claiming all the good deeds they did in the name of God, but he will respond to them that they are evil-doers and he never knew them as one of his own. This leads me to...

True Christianity - literally devoting one's life to Christ - is not religionReligion is a collection of rules and a series of actions taken in an attempt to earn a peaceful afterlife. It can't be accomplished by human means, and is ultimately, an exercise in futility. Being a Christ follower means admitting that I, as a member of the human race, am an utterly flawed, depraved, and sinful being completely deserving of the ultimate sentence of doom placed on us by God for our disobedience to him. It means believing that Jesus Christ is the perfect son of God, both 100% God and 100% man, sent to earth as a worthy sacrifice and payment of this sin-debt as a proof of God's love for me despite my sinful condition, so that I can once again be re-united with God after my life is over (forgive the run-on sentence). It means Confessing my sins to God and accepting him as lord of my life.
This isn't an easy thing to do. I'm very, very bad at it. Human beings' natural desires - this sin nature - resists this. We want to do things our own ways. One of these ways is to make up a set of rules and accomplishments that we can check off a list and then say "Ok, I did it. I'm good enough now." It just doesn't work that way.

I don't understand why this God of yours would allow/declare...This is true. Most of us don't. Some things are understood better through study of Christian texts and the life of Christ. Other things are an utter mystery and have to be accepted through faith. I believe that the reason that we can't just have proof or reasons once and for all is because our brains simply cannot comprehend it. It would be like explaining to an an ant the details of why one shouldn't leave a fork in the microwave, or explaining to a bird the process of unraveling the human genome.

Oh, but there was a poll question, wasn't there? How do I feel about Atheists? I'm sort of sad for them because they actively reject God's love. But most of them don't even know the truth. They've heard some falsified form of it - or not heard it at all - and want nothing to do with it. And this is fair, because so much of what is spread as so-called Christianity has nothing to do with what Jesus taught.

Personal disclosure: I am a Christ follower. I try (very poorly) to be sure people I talk to know that without Christ, they're headed for eternal damnation. I don't do it by beating them over their heads with my Bible or my Bible app, or a sign with a hateful slogan on it. (sidenote - mere disagreement doesn't equal hate) I have friends who are also Christ followers. I have friends who claim Christ, but haven't really surrendered their lives to him. I have friends who are agnostic. I have friends who are atheist. I have friends who are Muslim. I have gay, straight, alcoholic, substance abusive, teetotaler, racist, and all-accepting friends. I associate civilly them all, and I try to let Jesus' love shine into their lives through my own.

RE: comments - please do comment / respond if you like. I'll *try* to check back later to read them, but as I'm posting this from work, it may not be possible depending on how busy I get.

scottevil110

DoDred wrote:I feel sorry for them. They have no idea what they are going to be missing out on. I know some that have covered to atheism from Christianity because they have fallen for the evolutionist dribble (and they think we have fallen for creationist dribble). I have given a lot of study to both. Creationist have the better end of it.

It should be noted that we know what you're offering, we just don't believe it's real. Lack of hearing about it, at least in the US, is certainly not a problem.

bsmith1

marymarauder10 wrote:I'm not talking about cases where the emt take a defibrillator and shock the guy back to life. That's not a "miracle". I'm talking about the cases where there isn't anything showing that modern medical equipment had anything to do with their survival or when someone is on the operating table dead and 4 minutes later...after they're pronounced dead...they suddenly start breathing again...And once again we're back to square 1. You can keep coming up with cases where someone was saved by modern medicine/equipment, and that's great, but those aren't the miracles I'm talking about. As for the "Why does God let bad things happen" argument. Just because it feels bad for you doesn't mean that it's bad for everyone. In your example, the guys boat capsizes. Maybe that's God's way of showing this guy to appreciate life, or to not go out in a storm...

You're right. Humans have some how been surviving long before modern medicine. If you believe fossil records, homosapiens have been around much longer than the popular organized religions of today. Yet somehow we've survived generation after generation. That, to me, is a miracle in itself. Humans seem to achieve great things against all odds a can be very resilient creatures. Is that proof of god? I don't think so. I think we need to keep looking to find where we came from and why we're here.

if you post actively in product threads, it can be a little tricky to figure out which of your posts was awarded a quality post. best thing is just to keep an eye on the number & post nothing but amazing things all the time always.
;]

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Not sure if you should post that? This slightly-nsfw-flowchart will help.

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