I could go down the rabbit hole on the whole who set the fire argument but I decided not to.

Suffice it to say, the government (ATF, FBI, CAG, DOJ, and the Clinton administration) totally botched this entirely.

The only person who acted with integrity in the best interest of the public, the Davidians and the government, was FBI director William Sessions and Bill Clinton fired him. Sessions argued that he should go to Waco in person and negotiate or directly oversee the negotiations and HRT, but Janet Reno and Webster Hubbell wouldn't let him because, get this, I'm not making it up.......he traveled too much. So they barred William Sessions as the FBI director from boarding a plane. So Sessions obeyed his bosses and got fired anyway. btw, I'm not a huge fan of Sessions, but he's probably the best FBI director the U.S. has ever had.

The bottom-line:
The Clinton Administration and Janet Reno and ATF, FBI, CAG, DOJ, etc., all
were murderers that abused their power like tyrants and jack-booted thugs.
That tyrannical behavior directly-led to the Oklahoma City Bombing by T.M..

They had to incinerate the entire building in order to save the children. Pump it so full of CS gas that concentration levels become flammable and then reach an ignition source such as a gas stove pilot light (or a CS grenade/pyrotechnic device thrown in). It's not like the forces outside had experts in the deployment characteristics of such items. Heck, they were just red blooded patriotic boys trying to save the children with tanks and snipers. Too bad every one of them baked like custard in that fire. Next time they'll have to use more tanks, and maybe some direct fire artillery! Nothing is too extreme when kids' lives are at stake.

The corpse of the little girl who died from the CS gas and the cyanide seizures always gets to me. It's a shame the FBI never admitted their role in her death.

I wish they'd just admit the truth. The corruption of deep state is entrenched because just look at what a joke all the Waco investigations have been. Sure, the FBI finally admitted in 1999 that they used incendiary devices but they at the same time, the Danforth investigation lied about the FLIR.

__________________If we mean to have heroes, statesmen and philosophers, we should have learned women.-Abigail Adams
this is not CNN or FOX (we're probably more accurate!)-LL HaydenSomeday I'll get my marxist utopia! -LL's GeorgeBushYeah but they're Moozlims. Kill 'em all! -WimblyIn other words it's always their fault for not voting Republican. - Wimbly

The corpse of the little girl who died from the CS gas and the cyanide seizures always gets to me. It's a shame the FBI never admitted their role in her death.

I wish they'd just admit the truth. The corruption of deep state is entrenched because just look at what a joke all the Waco investigations have been. Sure, the FBI finally admitted in 1999 that they used incendiary devices but they at the same time, the Danforth investigation lied about the FLIR.

I decided to watch the entire House Hearings on Waco and go to various websites to corroborate info.

I was actually surprised at how much info that gets passed off as conspiracy theories really was admitted to by government officials and federal agents in the hearings.

I thought the whole thing about Delta force (CAG) being there in a forward operating capacity was just rumor and conspiracy. However, it's actually admitted to in the house hearings. That surprised the bananacrap out of me. I was totally shocked.

I was also shocked to find out that then Governor of Texas, Ann Richards really did give the Texas Ranger's commander, Maurice Cook, Vince Foster's phone number in case he had any questions about the FBI's behavior in destroying the crime scene and evidence. Vince Foster at the time was the White House counsel. The Texas Rangers were deputized U.S. Marshalls and they were supposed to be in charge of the evidence and the crime scene. The FBI just rolled right over them and even outright lied to them. Not one, not two, but an entire group of Texas Rangers testified to that fact. All of them had at least 20 years of law enforcement experience prior to the Waco incident. I never realized before how convincing their testimony really was.

I am left with a ton of questions and lingering feeling of fear over what the Federal Government would and can do. Especially in the wake of the FBI scandal regarding the Russian collusion. That investigation has yet to turn up any Russians that weren't colluding with the Hillary Clinton campaign.

As far as Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma city bombing, there's no way anyone can credible maintain that it was not a direct response to the events at Waco. That rabbit hole is truly terrifying. I can't find any legitimate verified information that Branch Davidian and Harvard Educated Lawyer, Wayne Martin, ran the license plates of the ATF agents at the undercover house, that all the plates were registered to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. There's reason to believe that McVeigh choose the Alfred P Murrah building mostly because of it was a soft target. I don't know what to believe there.

I believe that the Federal Government is still not giving all the information to the American public.

In addition to watching the entire House hearings about Waco, I watched a bunch of vids about the FBI response to both Waco and the Oak bomb. Byron Sage is not even credible in any way, shape or form. At best, he's a company guy. I suspect he's actually carrying water for HRT and covering for his own inability to withstand inter-agency pressure to do the wrong thing.

Gary Noesner is credible. He's right about negotiations. I was surprised in a good way, about how he talked about stand offs and sieges since Waco. He's got a lot to say and I'd pay money to see him and David Thibodeau do a panel. Scott Adams should moderate it. My book budget is pretty limited so I haven't read his book yet but it's on my list. I did read Thibodeau's first book though.

We don't hear about standoffs post Waco because nobody was killed and the FBI doesn't give daily briefings to the press about such ongoing incidents anymore.

For instance, I had no idea the the Montana Freeman Militia held out for 81 days on a ranch. Not a single shot was fired and the two ring leaders were arrested. During that time, the FBI allowed family members to enter and leave the ranch house (not compound or fortress this time), defense lawyers and basic food supplies were allowed in.

I also heard about a guy, who beat up and bit a trooper, has been held out on his cabin for over 15 years now. His children and friends are allowed to see him, bring food and supplies in and law enforcement has no intention of trying to force him out of his cabin. The prosecutor who is in charge of the case says the guy would have been given about ten years in prison if brought to justice. In some way, I see no difference between bitey man being in his cabin for 15 years and a basic house arrest situation other than the court proceedings.

The thing that's really bothering a lot of rural folks, the situation of Cliven Bundy and his family was thrown out of court WITH PREJUDICE. The Bureau of Land Management really were acting like Jack booted thugs and at least one of them was fired and I think brought up on criminal charges. The system worked here and I hope Cliven Bundy gets compensated in a civil suit.

(aside: who the hell really thought it was a good idea to pre-plan stomping Ammon Bundy's face into the dirt?!?!?! The absolute hubris of actually putting that in official electronic communications...sheesh! Don't ever tell me that we can't say an agent who PRE-PLANS deliberately and with malice using his boot to stomp some guys face into gravel isn't a jack booted thug. I think that's the literal definition of jack booted thug. With all the haranguing about the phrase "jack booted thugs" in the House hearings on Waco, we'd think no federal agent would every actually try to fit that stereotype to a T but the Bureau of Land Management just said "hold my beer" to HRT and actually pre planned to do it. )

Randy Weaver and his family won 3.1 million in a civil suit. There is a time the Federal Government can claim they are above being sued because of blah blah legal reason. However, there are times when judicial proceedings can't just turn a blind eye to what their agents and executives do. The decision making process isn't immune just because it's a decision making process. It shouldn't be sacrosanct and beyond question.

There's one suggestion about how to solve this now decades long problem that continually surfaces that the Federal Government absolutely refuses to consider. It's really ticking me off too. The power of federal law enforcement is too concentrated in D.C. The ability of a Federal Agency to just come in and take over riding rough shot over everyone else and whole communities is obvious. I understand the FBI had problems when agents in charge had too much latitude, but the solution wasn't to make D.C. desk jockeys more powerful. D.C is so irreparably politicized, so intrinsically biased against rural folks so out of touch with the different and unique cultures spread out across America, there's no way a D.C. lawyer type could ever effectively and prudently judge policy and procedure for every situation that can arise, nor should they try. It all can't be controlled from D.C. even if D.C. was efficient, non-politicized and well ordered, which it is not.

Think about this......why does the Department of Education have a SWAT team? Who gave the EPA "civilian" versions of tanks? Why does Health and Human Services need to stockpile ammunition? I'm pretty sure it's not because they think the Commies are coming. Unless they're the commies and they're already here.

Why isn't the Department of Agriculture HQ located in Iowa? Why isn't the EEOC located in Alabama? Why isn't the Bureau of Land Management HQ located in Wyoming? Why does each and every HQ have to be headed by a Washington insider lawyer? Who decided that every deputy assistant director of underwear had to have a degree from Georgetown, Harvard or Yale? The best president we had in the 20th century was probably Ronald Reagan and he had a degree from Eureka college. How come diversity is only skin deep? Where's the investigation into how rural and small town people became insignificant to D.C. ? Where's the multicultural understanding to those who don't want to be part of the urban jungle?

__________________If we mean to have heroes, statesmen and philosophers, we should have learned women.-Abigail Adams
this is not CNN or FOX (we're probably more accurate!)-LL HaydenSomeday I'll get my marxist utopia! -LL's GeorgeBushYeah but they're Moozlims. Kill 'em all! -WimblyIn other words it's always their fault for not voting Republican. - Wimbly

As far as Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma city bombing, there's no way anyone can credible maintain that it was not a direct response to the events at Waco. That rabbit hole is truly terrifying. I can't find any legitimate verified information that Branch Davidian and Harvard Educated Lawyer, Wayne Martin, ran the license plates of the ATF agents at the undercover house, that all the plates were registered to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. There's reason to believe that McVeigh choose the Alfred P Murrah building mostly because of it was a soft target. I don't know what to believe there.

Indeed, but, it is really only as "deep" a rabbit hole or as is the "Deep State".

No, TM did not "choose" the APM Federal building "mostly because it was a soft target".
That is just complete nonsense.

TM chose that building because it housed the offices of the exact same "jack-booted"
Federal thugs that had all incinerated and murdered all of those innocent men, women,
and children at Waco TX with their "unnecessary raid" for the benefit of the mass media
and of their own self-promotion and to impose their tyranny upon all would-be dissidents.

That is the bottom-line about this truly avoidable tragedy that has still yet to be properly addressed because those all most responsible for it all were never actually punished for it.
Barely or at all even.
Justice "so delayed" is always "justice denied".