As a response to recent negativity on the Internet, we've been working with Groklaw to get a story running detailing facts about questions such as "Releasing KDE 4.0 was a mistake", "I am forced to use the kickoff menu", "The whole KDE4 desktop interface is radically new". among others. Thanks go out to Pamela Jones for giving the KDE community a chance to rectify certain points that have recently been said in public. This way, we hope to make it easier for journalists to put KDE's direction, recent decisions and put simple myths into the right light.

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I admire the developers for doing something that basically amounts to short term pain for long term gain. Some very forward thinking design choices will let the KDE4 series (eventually) overshadow anything around it in all areas.

i've been using kde 3 for many years now and all i can say is thanks to all the developers that spend time and money to do something for free. those who complaint should be shot on the head why because they're complainting about something they got for free and better yet it's open source which mean you don't like something just change it or fix it what's stopping you.

I personally wasn't all that impressed with the 4.0 release. But I also understood that it was the libraries that were stable and not the desktop. I've personally enjoying the latest 4.1 beta. There has been loads of work going into the new desktop and I'm pleased to see it progressing like it has. I think the KDE team has done very well. Thanks for that KDE guys!

Even though I'm still exited about the 4.X series there are a few things I would like to have before switching to it.

- different wallpapers on different desktops. I absolutely love just adding a directory and not specific wallpapers, but I don't like using the pager, so different wallpapers helps me know what desktop I'm on.

- drag 'n drop of the plasmoids from the desktop to the plasma panel and vice versa.

- a complete oxygen icon set. Its gotten more and more complete as time has gone one but I still see little white boxes representing folders or programs in the menu.

- program stability. I realize that the last version I used was a beta release. However, every time I tried to create a new folder, konqueror and dolphin both crashed on me. Well documented on bugs.kde.org as well...

KDE 4.X will get there. It will just take a little time. Thanks for all the hard work so far.

That, is sadly a color scheme I was playing with to present as a possible concept for the next release of openSUSE. I'm not very happy with it, but you can see the icons I use in the shot. Compare that icon folder to the one from Oxygen.

That's a matter of taste. There are some of us who actually like the current Oxygen folder icons. And then again, you're probably free to replace the folder icons on your own setup. It's just a matter of replacing some PNGs. : )

If you need someone with a name who likes the Oxygen folder icons: I do. Oxygen is just a great composition, from the window decoration that blends with the window colors to the folder icons. I absolutely love that look.

However it would be unfair for me to suggest that most people hate the icons, when I don't know that to be the case.

The only thing I can speak of with certainty is my own experiences. On kde-look.org and here on the Dot, I read tons of negative comments about the folder icons. I tend to agree. I think most of the Oxygen icons are incredible, and Nuno Pinheiro constantly amazes me with his designs. In KDE 4 in reality looked more like his mock-ups, I'd likely use it.

On my original post I never said I didn't like the Oxygen set. I simply stated that I would really like it to be *complete*. I know it takes loads of work to do some great graphics. I think Oxygen looks great so far. But I also think that once the first folder icon is created it should be fairly easy to finish up the rest. Of course I'm a terrible graphics designer and have no skills with Gimp, Krita, or Inkscape.

Just because I said I would like to see it completed doesn't mean I didn't like it.

KDE3.5 remains alive and well, a new release is coming. The plug is not about to be pulled at any minute. No one is going to be forced to make the jump anytime soon. We've got plenty of time to get used to it, and it's got a long way to go, and KDE 3.5 is still here, the default for practically every distro. That's all I needed to hear; I don't really care about the other stuff.

This is a good step, but you really ought to put it on the website. People who want to know what's going on with KDE aren't necessarily going to go to groklaw.

You are right: perhaps that fact is not visible enough.
But luckily, that can be corrected easily and it should: every non-advanced user that thinks KDE 3.5 will be stopped, will be in great fears when trying out KDE 4.0.
On the other hand, probably not more than a mention on the main kde-site would be needed.

The truth is: You can savely run the KDE 3.5-series for the next few years. Since my wife and daughter both didn't like 4.0, they stayed with 3.5 and will stay for the next time. Meanwhile, I am using the development version from SVN ever since perhaps november. Add some test installations of the 4.0 packages from my distribution, and you see that it's perfectly possible (and actually quite easy) to have both versions and more side by side.

Coming to think of it: I think this side-by-side installation is the officially recommended way of "switching" to the new version (a slow switch, really :).

... and that's a fact. Nothing gets more attention, makes you feel like part of the in-crowd, and is easier to do than complain. Give someone a bar of gold and I'm sure they'll whine "Gosh it's so heavy!".

And without having to look the other person in the eye, people on the internet seem to have gotten a lot cruder and more inconsiderate, too.

Add these factors to a group who are already used to getting things for free (the end-user FOSS crowd) and you've got a big baby on your hands.

Please realize I'm not describing the (silent) majority of you ought there -- those of you who appreciate all the hard work that goes into the *FREE* *EXCELLENT* tools you use everyday.

Let me say that I think this is a very good approach. Pam from Groklaw is awesome as per usual.

I have yet to read the article, which I'm just about to do. However the summary mentions a few myths that seem rather subjective. "I am forced to use the kickoff menu" is objective, and false. It is good to clear up true myths like that.

However the other two examples cited do seem to be a matter of opinion. I'm not sure they can be classified using objective standards.

"We do not think we're anywhere near that point. A fork is a necessity only when other alternatives have failed. Yet people are calling for a fork of KDE without even trying those alternatives. We call that irresponsible."

I think a fork of a project like KDE is extremely unlikely, and I think it is extremely unhealthy for the community. I would strongly urge people to reconsider making such suggestions. However, I understand how both sides feel here. When a developer says "I will refuse patches submitted on an issue" people may feel like no other alternatives exist. The alternative really is a fork without the typical connotation of a fork. Some blogged (can't recall which, SVJ?) called for a fork in which someone rewrites KDE 3 and maintains that. That isn't going to happen. However, when you don't like the upstream version, and they refuse to include a patch, I think the solution is to contact the package maintainers from your distro of choice. They may accept a patch. You have your fork, in that you have your alternative version of the package, but you're not dividing the whole community.

It should be noted, on the cashew issue that originated some of this mess, openSUSE made their own patch precisely because Aaron wouldn't accept it upstream. Some problems like these fix themselves.

"KDE needs to drop Plasma"

I thought these were fact debunking myths. Again, most of what I'm reading in the article so far is opinion. However, as a big KDE 4 critic, let me say that KDE should not drop Plasma. Plasma has many things going for it. Asking for the direction of the desktop to change is one thing. Asking for Plasma to be dropped is ridiculous. If you really hate Plasma, then use KDE 3.

"Plasma lacks functionality"

I think this is semantics. People equate Plasma with their desktop, which it is to an extent. When they can't configure their desktop, or their panel, they see a lack of functionality. One could contend factually that they are missing the functionality they are missing.

Maybe a better answer might be along the lines, "from a developer perspective, we feel that Plasma is a robust and powerful framework that provides vastly more functionality that the old kicker/kdesktop code. We understand that end users may be missing some of the customization options they have come to expect from KDE 3. In time we plan to add most of those options back, as well as many new features. So please be patient."

"The KDE team does not listen to its users"

The KDE team is massive. There have been complaints that Aaron said he would not address, yet those complaints were addressed. I am going to assume that Aaron does not represent the opinions of every developer working on Plasma, let alone KDE. I'd say as of late Aaron has certainly expressed little desire to listen to feedback from users. Comments such as saying that you can't understand interface issues unless you read the code create a schism between users and developers that I don't feel is healthy for the project.

However, it is a gross misrepresentation to suggest that entire KDE team does not listen to users.

You'll note, that despite being labeled (unfairly) as a troll, I mostly defend the project and the people associated with it. I have primarily said good things about KDE over the years. Personally if I say that I find someone to be an interface issue, that the interface causes problems and affects the way I use the desktop, I have a valid right to that opinion.

When someone suggests I am stupid and don't understand what a containment is, because otherwise I'd never complain, then I'm not the troll. If anything, I feel like I'm the victim of a personal attack here, and the other side isn't listening.

I think there is definitely some truth to saying that some KDE developers clearly aren't listening to their user base. Interface/ergonomic issues are best addressed by a wide range of users. Listen when they offer advice.

Again, I praise the concept of this article. I only bring up the subjective/objective thing because I'm pedantic and have a thing for semantics.

I for one hope to see a healthy relationship from users and developers in the KDE community in the future.

"When someone suggests I am stupid and don't understand what a containment is, because otherwise I'd never complain, then I'm not the troll. If anything, I feel like I'm the victim of a personal attack here, and the other side isn't listening"

I assume you are talking about the ability to remove the cashew? I just put a non technical explanation on the Plasma FAQ (and notice that such a thing has been said *a lot of times* already):

"Although putting an option to disable the cashew for desktops sounds reasonable, from a coding point of view it would introduce unnecessary complexity and would break the design. What has been suggested is, since the destkop itself (a containment) is handled by plugins, to write a plugin that would draw the desktop without the cashew itself. Currently some work ("blank desktop" plugin) is already present in KDE SVN. With containment type switching expected by KDE 4.2, it is not unreasonable to see alternative desktop types developed by then."

When I commented on it, I was told I was stupid and didn't understand what a containment was.

I understand what Aaron said about the complexity of the issue. But frankly, that doesn't change the fact that the cashew was causing problems with people even when they weren't trying to interact with it. That makes it a serious interface issue, not just one of aesthetics.

Here is another solution. Remove the cashew completely, and create a different interface for adding widgets that isn't problematic.

Instead, we get a response of "not only do we think your issues are not relevant, but we're going to call you stupid for bringing them up," which masks the actual issue of "doing so means considerably redesigning how these things are handled and I don't feel like doing that. I feel that in in the end, my design will be fine, so we'll have to live with the bumps until then."

Aaron did at one point express it more like that, with the quote that made it into the FAQ. However, more often than not he wasn't so diplomatic with his replies.

Coincidently I remember having read a thread like that on the dot. Although I neither recall if the one called stupid was him nor if the developer was Aaron, I tend to attribute that affair to the heated atmosphere of the last months.

I have the feeling that most developers (and some users, too) woke up since one of them didn't see any other possibility than to refuse any public communication. This waking up has already resulted in a better atmosphere and I hope we'll get back to sane communications soon.

But I think it's not one single comment or one single technical (usability?) issue that should be discussed here, but how we (as a community) can prevent that our communications ever de-escalate so badly again that a long-term user and a core-developer of one project both love, exchange hard words. Or that developers get attacked publicly so badly that they have to hide to save themselves!

I certainly do hope the coming moderation system on the dot is helping there, too.

First I just want to say that I'm just a KDE user, though interested and impressed by the work done in 3.5 and 4.

The feeling I get when reading your posts is that this has become a personal thing for you. That might not be your intention, but that's what many of your posts convey to me. You do have some constructive criticism in your posts too.

Maybe you were treated unfairly by A, but you also have to understand that he probably got the same questions a thousand times (exaggerated). If person number 1000 asks the same question in a (to him) not so polite and constructive way, he might snap. I know I would. Person number 1000 maybe doesn't deserve it, but there's only so much patience in a human being. I've seen a LOT of patience and helpfulness from A and I've seen him be not so polite too.

So please, don't make this a vendetta, give each other some slack and move forward.

I don't have any beef with Aaron as a person, and I empathize. I've never run a project of this size, but I have had to deal with large product coordination before.

I'm upset because I disagree with concepts and philosophies regarding the future of the KDE desktop. Since I feel strongly about the KDE desktop, I'm expressing my opinions.

I don't presume that anyone owes me anything, or that the desktop must be precisely how I like it. Actually, I could care less about defaults. I'm more concerned about whether or not I'll have the flexibility to configure KDE to operate how I want.

Regardless, I don't want to come across like I'm disagreeing or arguing with you. It seems your intent is to diffuse a situation. I'm just trying to express that I don't have any anger or issue with Aaron, aside from misspelling his name a few times the other day.

I've yet to read you do anything but complain, even when the KDE team has to take you by the hand and explain things over and over, then you still argue with them. Perhaps one day you will write something positive.

It is really awsome, it's shiny, glossy, sexy. It is A LOT more stable than 4.0 which I had before. 4.0 wasn't usable because of crashes and bugs, I was pissed of by it so many times, that I decided to go for 4.1 beta or GNOME. I went for 4.1 and it's much much better in terms of quality, but there are some issues yet. I hope that final version will be rock stable.

I think, that KDE4 will become a very, very good an well integrated Desktop-Environment and i can live with KDE 4.0.5 on Fedora9 because i have myself informed about the further development of KDE4.

My interest came from the series of "the way to KDE4" and some blogs from Aaron, especially "falling in love again" or so ...

... but, at that time, when the first Distributions (Kubuntu, Fedora and now openSuse) came with their first new releases, there is a gap of anouncements on the dot. Sadly, at that time, there are many "new" Users who can take a look at KDE4 without knowing about the state ... (KDE4 is the new incarnation of KDE3, as in Windows, not knowing that it was really new).

Whenever i will be informed about KDE, i first try the kde.org-website. It's a little bit unluky, that Danny has to take an outtime to manage his move and some very interesting news like KDE 3.5.10 are not communicated over kde.org(?) ...

In my opinion, some of the blog entries would have been introduced as an article on kde.org and so it give the community the chance to follow the direction the developers are going. And as not being a blog-entry, they will be reworked and clearer and officially ... (i know being proud, solving a problem and tell it the whole world).

I don't know anything about the flame wars, but i have read the blog "no more desktop icons". First, damn, what will KDE do? Second, after reading the full text: WOW, that's wonderfull so many possibilities to work with the folderview, now i can realy work with the four workspaces(?) ...
I think, many of the whiners haven't read the following text ... and they haven't read the explications.

And because there are more news outside kde.org, than here, i've found an intersting introducion of an german website (from June the 16.):

Hipper, comfortabler, faster and spare resources: the KDE-Desktop in the new version 4 has the possibility to become the desktop of the decade. KDE 4 is in all cases an eye-catcher.
It would not be astonished, if the commercial window-vendor out of Redmond is in a funk of the just now published KDE 4.

The translation may be not correct, but i hope it will ..., and it was just an entry to a detailed view to KDE4 ... (from a windows-centric magazine).

my thanks goes to all the developer, artwork-artists, translators and all the ppl i've forgotten, i think, that KDE4 will be a great DE and i will change to the KDE-PIM when 4.2 is out and it has made the full transition (now using thunderbird, because comming from windows).

If you don't need to rely on a rock stable system as a fedora 9-user you might want to look at kde-redhat (unstable) to update on kde 4.0.85 already (rc1 will come soon). It's running rock stable here and has lots of improvments so far.

If the Team had announced that KDE4 was on its way for testing or previewing, then every single complain whould have been meaningless.
But the team announced that "The KDE Community is thrilled to announce the immediate availability of KDE 4.0." (http://kde.org/announcements/4.0/).
Then there is something wrong.
The announcement was a mistake as KDE4 completeness, stability and usability can be questionable.
KDE4 itself cannot be a mistake as the technology preview clearly shows the quality of the design and development.
Simply, what's been released as KDE4 is just a limited technology preview, while people was what you normally call "release".

See, when KDE 4 was released, I knew, I can't remember if it was on dot or on opensuse news, that it was released for early adopters, testers, and people to port their applications over, and it was said time and time again on dot to people that it was.

What was wrong, is time and time again people didn't listen, people, like one person who moans a lot on dot, argued with the KDE team, not listening.

So if you didn't know this is why it was released, then why did so many others know it was? Perhaps you should not only read dot but other distro news as well, and become informed like so many others

I'ld rather say it was a foreseeable unfortunate thing to release it labeled as 4.0 and saying at the same time a developer release. In the open source world alpha and betas are developer releases, x.0 releases are not. Having set the expectations pretty high before made it almost unavoidable to create confusion and disapppointment: Here we are, half a year later and *still* discussing that release and having seen verbal escaltions and insults, frustrated developers, ...

Isn't that proof enough that the idea behind that kind 4.0 release didn't work out?

"And let it be noted that there is no more delicate matter to take in hand, nor more dangerous to conduct, nor more doubtful in its success, than to set up as the leader in the introduction of changes. For he who innovates will have for his enemies all those who are well off under the existing order of things, and only lukewarm supporters in those who might be better off under the new."

Niccolò Machiavelli - 1513

I think the release of 4.0 was the right thing to do at the right time and I hope it will continue this way. I don't think the KDE team anticipated the reaction from some users, which can be avoided next time. It's not easy, but it can always be done better. More and even simpler communication is usually the trick.

Software porting to a newer library is usually a nightmare. Newer libraries might remove functions or even modify the behaviour of some functions which is usually tricky to work around. The difference between Qt 3 and 4 is huge, but I am sure they had very good reasons to break compatibility. Some people dont understand that it was both difficult and important for KDE to move to Qt4. Opera browser, a cutting edge software is still using Qt 3, this should give you an indication on the amount of work needed to port to Qt4.

I simply don't get the reliance on plasmoids to fill every niche of the desktop.
Folder view here, menu there, clock there. The problem with that is: There is no decent way of managing when and what of these beasties is visible (at least I haven't found one in the numerous times I gave KDE4 svn a spin) as there is no instance that could elevate a plasmoid above everything else - because you might need to have a look at it but at the same time have the rest of the "proper" windows accessible.
And here is the problem: A load of functionality previously offered by fully fledged windows (even if some were only connected with mini-icons the window opened from them were fully functional) with decoration, task bar entries and easy switching to and from has been transformed into these functionally hampered and thus mostly useless plasmoids! So it becomes a hard decision to maximise the image window in which you are editing a picture while at the same time you'd need access to some plasmoid contents.
Why do so many things have to be exempt from the usual window management? Why can't I switch by pressing Alt-Tab from one window to the contents of a plasmoid (which has replaced a former functional small application) and back to my application again?
They might be the newest design fad but for me they are the downfall of KDE4 and a major disapointment. I have been a fan of KDE and Qt since early days and I hope some common sense will reappear. My hopes of that happening are dwindling rapidly though...

Uhm, looking at the development pace, I wouldn't worry much about that, and I assume things will be addressed by the 4.2 time.

But I must admit that the things pointed out by Karl are pretty true, and there is to me a 'usability' problem. The "plasmoid" layer behind the regular windows layer is not practical when you have to use/refer to both at the same time (you can switch the active one, I know, but you don't have 'handle' the content of both).

And. I know that Plasma is not only what you see, but a simple and maybe dumb question rises in my mind: why can't be plasmoid live within the "regular windows" area? I mean, what real gain has - say - twitter plasmoid over a normal twitter window? This is just a question about Plasma in general.

For the rest, I think that user's rants will begin to calm down with 4.1 released.

Beside the words used, I find the "Why do so many things have to be exempt from the usual window management?" argument quite interesting.

Ctrl+F12 is a switch that allows you to manage a separate layer. I find this a bit unpractical.

And, just my two cents: people has been rude, and almost everyone here knows the whole story. Now, don't we jump on the other side, criticizing every single word used. "Upset" and "Troll" are two separate adjectives (not directly to you, Luca, but just in general).

"Beside the words used, I find the "Why do so many things have to be exempt from the usual window management?" argument quite interesting."

Currently, as I see it, it's mostly because everything is rather new. I would also like some integration between KWin and Plasma (for example, confining windows to specific activities, like KWin does for virtual desktops), but as I see it, it's just a matter of time. Like KDE 4.0 was just the beginning, 4.1 is merely a continuation of an ongoing process.

4.1 should had fixed everything, it won't.
after 4.1 developers will tell that 4.2 will solve everything, it won't.
This is how things are, KDE developers decided to drop a well used structure (kicker+kdesktop) for something new that is taking more than anyone would have wished for, and that includes developers themselves. Sad, but there is nothing we can do, plasma is still on it's infancy.

Now about plasmoids being on desktop, I have to agree.
O do not see the point of having a program on my desktop if it is hidden 99% of the time for a program, as I always runs programs maximized.

I see the point of plasmoids on panel, but one desktop... it just seems like someone used apple dashboard, yahoo or google widgets, liked tha idea and made the whole kde4 desktop based on that.

Man, those are just toys! I still did not see any plasmoid that is really usefull (exept for those on panel to replace kicker).
One guy is creating a kopete conect list to be keept in desktop... why if I can just open kopete windows and have it? WHY?? oh god why??? (life without drama is not fun - death in discworld). :D

> KDE developers decided to drop a well used structure (kicker+kdesktop) for something new

Not decided to, but had to drop. Unmaintained applications get removed from KDE's main modules.
I've seen several new developers come forward as new maintainers of other applications they wanted to stay in KDE, so obviously nobody even outside the KDE developer community at that time wanted to keep working on kicker or kdesktop.

> I see the point of plasmoids on panel, but one desktop

Congratulations! You have just discovered, all by yourself, one of the most important aspects of Plasma: container independence.
You like things displayed on your panel, some others might want to have some on the desktop, somebody complete different might want some on the overlay/dashboard, there might even be people who want to always-on-top.

Instead of coding stuff several times, developers can now code once and let us users choose where we want to see the GUI portions. Nice, huh?