Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

southie--Ludwick, Ross, Ichiro---all could do RF in addition to Victorino.

I hate to be negative but Ben has either been given parameters that don't include anything over $4 or 5 per year. Perhaps the Lester for Myers will be a reality--with Myers getting the ML minimum. Heck he could do that just bringing up Brentz or Kalish or Hassan.

I would love to see Victorino in CF and Swish /Cody/Ichiro in RF and trade Ells.

Not using the $80 M bothers me because the ticket prices are still high, the concession prices will be the same or higher, NESN prices will be the same or higher, and the product on the field will be inferior to the one that started the season in 2012.

Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

Like the "BIG O", everything (most) should be on the table.........Not that the "BIG O" will get anything done but BEN needs to make sure that we don't fall off the FREE-AGENCY CLIFF !!!!

southie--Ludwick, Ross, Ichiro---all could do RF in addition to Victorino.

I hate to be negative but Ben has either been given parameters that don't include anything over $4 or 5 per year. Perhaps the Lester for Myers will be a reality--with Myers getting the ML minimum. Heck he could do that just bringing up Brentz or Kalish or Hassan.

I would love to see Victorino in CF and Swish /Cody/Ichiro in RF and trade Ells.

Not using the $80 M bothers me because the ticket prices are still high, the concession prices will be the same or higher, NESN prices will be the same or higher, and the product on the field will be inferior to the one that started the season in 2012.

Hes got speed, a very good arm so couldnt he cover a spacious RF? he got a .760OPS agains RH and a .794 vs LH starting pitching. Its good for him to be able to play CF in case Ells goes down again.

And Mad, He going to spend money. Its premature to come to that conclusion. Theyve said their going to have a higher payroll and they will. Big named FA dont sign before the winter meetings 99% of the time.

Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

The optimist in me says there is no discussion on him because the posters don't like his down year or his age. The realist in me says some of the posters only want to sign guys they heard of, and that anyone that had even a single bad year, is finished.

Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

The optimist in me says there is no discussion on him because the posters don't like his down year or his age. The realist in me says some of the posters only want to sign guys they heard of, and that anyone that had even a single bad year, is finished.

Yeah, I find the "He sucked this year. Hes finished, Its time to trade him." statements Fantasy baseballish...Nevermind the last few prior years. Lester is a good example of that for sure.

Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

The optimist in me says there is no discussion on him because the posters don't like his down year or his age. The realist in me says some of the posters only want to sign guys they heard of, and that anyone that had even a single bad year, is finished.

The realist is me says there is no discussion on him because Victorino's agent decided it would be wisest to let Bourn, Upton and Hamilton go first and narrow the field of team's deserate for a CF, especially those needing one capable of hitting leadoff who did not get Bourn...

Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

The optimist in me says there is no discussion on him because the posters don't like his down year or his age. The realist in me says some of the posters only want to sign guys they heard of, and that anyone that had even a single bad year, is finished.

The realist is me says there is no discussion on him because Victorino's agent decided it would be wisest to let Bourn, Upton and Hamilton go first and narrow the field of team's deserate for a CF, especially those needing one capable of hitting leadoff who did not get Bourn...

Much mention of Shane Victorino? Hes still a good player that would come at a good price and years, isnt he?

Hes got a really good arm, switch hitter, and could cover RF in Fenway with his athleticism. hes coming off a down year which could help with his price. hes 32, but still in good enough shape for a 2yr deal.

Im not sure what hes asking for, but like i said, if he would do 2yr deal, Id def consider it.

The optimist in me says there is no discussion on him because the posters don't like his down year or his age. The realist in me says some of the posters only want to sign guys they heard of, and that anyone that had even a single bad year, is finished.

The realist is me says there is no discussion on him because Victorino's agent decided it would be wisest to let Bourn, Upton and Hamilton go first and narrow the field of team's deserate for a CF, especially those needing one capable of hitting leadoff who did not get Bourn...

So to carry this a step further, clubs tend to grossly overpay for the good, talented FA's first because they're there and the FOs are afraid someone else will grab the quality FA's up. That leaves the run-of-the-mill FAs who will only be overpaid (as opposed to grossly overpaid) because they're all that's left and the FO feels they need SOMEBODY!

Then you arrive at the line between the desirable FAs and the undesirable ones. If a player falls below that line their value decreases because they're not desirable and the clubs may want to go with their farm system or go with what they're already got.

It's not a pretty scenario for the clubs, is it? They either overpay for a good free agent or they wait in the hope (?) that they can get someone who's not as good, only cheaper. That's a Hell of a way to have to run a railroad! Especially for a team who wants to contend every year.

From a player's stand point this reminds me of Julian Tavarez's comment about the Washington Nationals being his JLo. For Julian, it got be "closing time" and the Nats were the only "girl" who'd have him! :-))

It is that simple, but you need a certain amount of emotional detachment. You need to understand the bigger picture. The bigger picture, for the most part (and this will be implied throughout), is that BB is a simple equation of WAR/$. Everytime you overpay, you get worse. The idea is to get the best 1B AND OF AND SP. If you overpay at 1B, then you automatically get worse at the other two positions.

I'd have thought this would've been stunningly obvious to RS fans over the past year+. Yet just a couple of months after the Big Dump, some of them are back to wishing to sign outlandish contracts, overpaying no matter what the terms, not looking past one or two seasons.

And, fr the most part, this is an issue with a lot of people in real life as well.

He's an old 2nd rate corner OF bum who is no longer capable of playing season long adequate CF. Which is why he's in his 2nd dumpster. ]

But, since you brought him up, you need to provide the 26M offer specifics that you provided on the great Torii Hunter. What's your offer for old man Shane? My offer is limited to his Red Sox value and fit of one year and 2M to platoon in CF and RF. I suspect from your thread that your offer is 2 years and 20M plus.

Try to use your intellect. Virtually every FA that is mentioned draws a reply from you that he is worth $1-2M. There really is no reason to add a reply like that to every thread. This isn't 1980 any more. $2M is what Sweeney was going to get in arbitration. The only way you get a club of $1-2M players is to have nothing but pre-arbitration players on the team. Past that, the team is not going to have a $50M payroll, so then it is a matter of how best to use the money.

So to carry this a step further, clubs tend to grossly overpay for the good, talented FA's first because they're there and the FOs are afraid someone else will grab the quality FA's up. That leaves the run-of-the-mill FAs who will only be overpaid (as opposed to grossly overpaid) because they're all that's left and the FO feels they need SOMEBODY!

There is really no such thing as both groups being overpaid. if need to pay more either way, then that is the market price. It's just like everything. Waiting longer works to your advantage. Until someone that wants the same player, and is using the same strategy, makes him the offer and signs him.

And you need some delineation on the positions. At 1st, you have LaRoche or Morse, Napoli, Reynolds, and very possibly Morneau and other trade possibilities. In CF, there is Bourn, Victorino, maybe Hamilton if you stillike him in CF, Pagan, maybe even Ichiro. You don't have to overpay for those positions.

OTOH, the catchers available are few and far between. At this point, it is AJP, and even the NYY are simply going with minor leaguers.

It is that simple, but you need a certain amount of emotional detachment. You need to understand the bigger picture. The bigger picture, for the most part (and this will be implied throughout), is that BB is a simple equation of WAR/$. Everytime you overpay, you get worse. The idea is to get the best 1B AND OF AND SP. If you overpay at 1B, then you automatically get worse at the other two positions.

well there's the rub JB

put me down with those who think

"building a roster is an art not a science "

and a win this yr is better than two wins

4 yrs from now

I'm not dismissing the complexity of putting together a roster. And some players are more valuable to team A than they are to team B. I don't even mind overpaying for a unique talent. But signing guys like Crawford, instead of giving up a couple of B-prospects for Willingham, set this team back big. When you sign guys like Willingham and Ross and Beltre, who provide good value, then you have a checkbook to back you up when you want to compete for the unique talents.