"they follow the game animals" Protoss eat sun rays. They don't even have mouths.

That's a retcon which was made in one of the Q&As or novels. The original manual says the Protoss were pack hunters. There's no reason to believe the Protoss didn't just have more exotic mouths than we're used to; maybe they were psychic vampires or something (Metzen's original idea for SC was literally "space vampires"). Plants absorb sunlight to power them in creating sugars from raw materials, they don't literally eat it; photosynthesis isn't feasible to support large animals like the Protoss.

The original manual says the Protoss were pack hunters. There's no reason to believe the Protoss didn't just have more exotic mouths than we're used to; maybe they were psychic vampires or something (Metzen's original idea for SC was literally "space vampires").

As you acknowledge the exact feeding mechanism remains unclear and could just as well be non-physical. However it also describes that they showed this behavior only before the Xel'Naga tampered with their evolution. How far that evolutionary process went is completely open but is described as extensive. So I imagine the pack hunter Protoss to modern Protoss to be anything between apes to humans to reptiles to humans. The point is we can only guess how much their physique changed.

Plants absorb sunlight to power them in creating sugars from raw materials, they don't literally eat it; photosynthesis isn't feasible to support large animals like the Protoss.

Saying they "eat" sunrays was partly a joke because the idea that this supposed to be enough energy to power the metabolism of a complex organism also bothered me. Then again, it's science fiction so I quickly cast that aside. If you start there you'll quickly find other facts that break established laws of physics much harder than just a bit of energy mismatching.

It's a retcon when it breaks previous continuity. Though as a matter of fact the manual doesn't even allude to how Protoss feed. The pack hunter behavior is indeed the only thing remotely related.

Pack hunters, by definition, are carnivores; food is the only reason to evolve hunting. If the Protoss evolved from plants (which is not infeasible), it was probably a carnivorous one that sacrificed photosynthesis to become a better hunter. It's also a pretty boring explanation that doesn't add anything of value to the Protoss. There are plenty of other, far more interesting plant traits they could have instead: bones made of cellulose, alternating between haploid and diploid generations, being brightly colored to attract insects, developing plant cancer, not having distinct males and females like humans, etc.

Instead, we get things like female protoss being lithe and having breasts to match human standards of beauty, male protoss displaying nipples, and protoss apparently having no orifices or lungs despite eyes counting as orifices and them breathing when idle and sometimes wearing gas masks. There's no consistently in canon, so why should I take the photosynthesis explanation the least bit seriously?

My complaint mostly applies to SC2 and to some degree BW. In SC1 (prior to SCR) the protoss portraits were colorful and textured. Some of them had features suggestive of nostrils or gills which, combined with the dark templar wearing veils, suggested they emoted using facial expressions made by their breathing orifices. Then SC2 (and SCR) made them monochrome, faceless, dead-eyed statues.

The original manual says the Protoss were pack hunters. There's no reason to believe the Protoss didn't just have more exotic mouths than we're used to; maybe they were psychic vampires or something (Metzen's original idea for SC was literally "space vampires").

As you acknowledge the exact feeding mechanism remains unclear and could just as well be non-physical. However it also describes that they showed this behavior only before the Xel'Naga tampered with their evolution. How far that evolutionary process went is completely open but is described as extensive. So I imagine the pack hunter Protoss to modern Protoss to be anything between apes to humans to reptiles to humans. The point is we can only guess how much their physique changed.

I don't think their physique changed much, if at all. If the xel'naga could do that, they could just make species that met their standards from scratch rather than scouring the galaxy looking for naturally ocurring species which met their standards, making minor tweaks and then waiting millions of years for evolution to take its course.

The retcon has Protoss always being photosynthetic and generally pretty wimpy. They hunted to get blood for paint and furs to protect them from the environment, even though that makes no sense as a selection pressure on plants to become motile (and Protoss in the games only ever seem to wear extremely impractical clothing for modesty and fashion rather than protection). When the dark templar moved to Shakuras, apparently the xel'naga had to alter them to survive the harsher environment and eat the weaker light. Nevermind that the entire reason the xel'naga were interested was because the Protoss were already hardy and athletic to the point of near perfection, or that this contradicts the original timeline.

Plants absorb sunlight to power them in creating sugars from raw materials, they don't literally eat it; photosynthesis isn't feasible to support large animals like the Protoss.

Saying they "eat" sunrays was partly a joke because the idea that this supposed to be enough energy to power the metabolism of a complex organism also bothered me. Then again, it's science fiction so I quickly cast that aside. If you start there you'll quickly find other facts that break established laws of physics much harder than just a bit of energy mismatching.

I always thought it was silly and unnecessary. Psychic powers seemingly draw their powers from nowhere, so why would Protoss need to be photosynthetic apart from that? (In fact, why hasn't anyone used psychic powers as infinite sources of energy? That only makes sense if the psychic powers require an external power source like a supply depot or a pylon.) Alternately, Protoss are clearly advanced enough to have food replicators that teleport food directly into their stomachs.

Why not? The following seems rather extensive. Hard to imagine such development could occur without physical advancement.

The Xel’Naga were pleased withthe progress of their latest creation andconceded that the new race was the first ofall their experiments to evolve beyond theferal constraints of baser life-forms.

theXel’Naga were still unsatisfied with their slowprogress and saw fit to drive the Protoss’evolution even further. The Xel’Naga spentyet another millennium subtly guiding thesteps of their children, eventually succeedingin leading the Protoss to the state of totalsentience and awareness.

Although I'll concede that the later parts seems to focus mostly on societal progress.

Not a specific quote, but I couldn't help but notice your whole undertone of interpreting Protoss as plant-like. Is this because of more than just the quality of a solar powered being? Because a) does it state anywhere that their processing of sunlight is anything alike photosynthesis? b) that alone wouldn't be enough for me to to declare it a plant in a scifi setting. Maybe if you get rid of that whole plant idea you could be more open to the concept of a solar powered being?

To be honest, I quite enjoy this tangent. It explores the perception of the concept of Protoss. Which for me has a solid place for me in a topic that is about what kinds of campaigns we like. Just like mapping, an important aspect of creating a campaign is telling a convincing story. Depicting the races as believable as possible can only further that goal.

Pack hunters, by definition, are carnivores; food is the only reason to evolve hunting.

Not if they hunt psychic energy, completely in line with highly advanced. The following are a quotes from the manual.

the Xel’Naga focusedtheir frustrated efforts on the most promisingof their engineered worlds. Aiur, a massive jungle-world on the galaxy’s fringe, hadborne a race of highly advanced beings.

Energy is not a thing, it is a quality of matter. I imagine something like, I don't know, the Protoss sucking the nutrition out of their prey and leaving withered husks like spiders and ant-lions do.

The "advanced" terminology seems to be relative. We are not given any context for what it means, other than the Protoss being hunter-gatherers at that point. They are also the strongest, fastest, most physically fit of all the experiments (no doubt aided by their nascent psychic powers).

Why not? The following seems rather extensive. Hard to imagine such development could occur without physical advancement.

I don't think the genetic modifications involved removing their mouths. People without a background in evolutionary biology may think that genetic engineering is as easy as assembling legos, but in real life it is impossible to make such radical alterations. Protoss only make sense as descended from animals similar to terrestrial siphonophores (colonial jellyfish).

Not a specific quote, but I couldn't help but notice your whole undertone of interpreting Protoss as plant-like. Is this because of more than just the quality of a solar powered being? Because a) does it state anywhere that their processing of sunlight is anything alike photosynthesis? b) that alone wouldn't be enough for me to to declare it a plant in a scifi setting. Maybe if you get rid of that whole plant idea you could be more open to the concept of a solar powered being?

"Solar powered" simply is not interesting. Telepathic plant people have interesting story potential because their differences qualitatively change how they interpret and interact with the world around themselves, as compared to humans.

To be honest, I quite enjoy this tangent. It explores the perception of the concept of Protoss. Which for me has a solid place for me in a topic that is about what kinds of campaigns we like. Just like mapping, an important aspect of creating a campaign is telling a convincing story. Depicting the races as believable as possible can only further that goal.

Right now you could substitute every Protoss portrait with a Terran one and the dialogue would still make perfect sense. I consider that, if not bad writing, really wasteful writing.

Realistically, Protoss should think and act just as inhumanly as the Zerg do. Not in the same direction, of course, but the fact that they have constant telepathic communication, much less species-wide empathy, should render their psychology inhuman.

For example: Because of their constant telepathy/empathy Protoss cannot willfully deceive one another, whereas human psychology and civilization is built around deception. Protoss automatically know the location of all other Protoss within range and constantly exchange sensory information to allow them to coordinate their activities, whereas human beings are blind and deaf in comparison.

For example: The only time communism works for humans is in small tribes, since the human brain can only empathize with ~150 people at a time and stop caring beyond that point. The Protoss lack this limitation due to their telepathic network, so they can expand communism to cover their entire species.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 18 2017, 2:24 pm by Mithras Gnosis.

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

tbh you lost me.

I don't know how you can honestly propose in a scifi setting that the mechanics for feeding from energy must be through pyhsical contact ("spider-like").

I don't know why you deny removal of mouths* when it's the only way your interpretation makes sense. Unless you propose to change canon and give Protoss mouths? Why would you do that? Anything that makes them less like humans (or any earth creature, for that matter) is cool in my book.

*) I would also strongly argue that it would be very much possible to remove their mouths. Even on earth we have seen creatures develop lungs from gills through unguided evolution. We humans can give pigs extra ribs, we can engineer (non-functional) human ears onto rats. Why is there any doubt a race advanced enough to craft whole planets couldn't make that specific change?

I don't know why you state that you don't like solar powered beings and in the same sentence you say you prefer plants. Plants are solar powered, specifically using photosynthesis.Also who said Protoss aren't psychic plants? I think your definitions are too narrow and "earth bound". Allow yourself to widen the possibilities. We're in a scifi setting.

I can agree on the last part though. I wouldn't mind their reasoning to be more alien.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 16 2017, 9:38 am by NudeRaider.

I don't know how you can honestly propose in a scifi setting that the mechanics for feeding from energy must be through physical contact ("spider-like").

Scifi is short for science fiction (emphasis on the science part) and does not equate to completely divorced from reality (which would be fantasy, and that thinking gave us Amon and the xel'naga being literal space magic gods). My idea is that protoss do have something that can be described as a mouth, just not in their heads. I was imagining something like the Wraith from Stargate Atlantis, but it could just as easily be closed ranged like in Dark Knight Returns Part 2 when Superman heals himself by causing nearby grass and flowers to spontaneously wilt and die. It cannot be something that would be useful in combat, though, to fit with the Zealots using weapons and physical augmentation. (One of the short stories depicts a tortured Khalai caste Protoss, after escaping containment, killing an evil human scientist by grabbing his head and using skin contact telepathy to cook his brain. Not useful in an armored, armed combat situation.)

I don't know why you deny removal of mouths* when it's the only way your interpretation makes sense. Unless you propose to change canon and give Protoss mouths? Why would you do that? Anything that makes them less like humans (or any earth creature, for that matter) is cool in my book.

*) I would also strongly argue that it would be very much possible to remove their mouths. Even on earth we have seen creatures develop lungs from gills through unguided evolution. We humans can give pigs extra ribs, we can engineer (non-functional) human ears onto rats. Why is there any doubt a race advanced enough to craft whole planets couldn't make that specific change?

Mouths are a prerequisite for complex life, so even the weirdest speculative biology projects will depict aliens with something that can be loosely described as a mouth. For example, Project Snaiad depicts aliens with two heads, one of which has jaws and genitals and the other being a giant tongue; Nereus depicts aliens with mouth and anus in the same orifice, while genitals and breathing are in another separate orifice. Even Protoss in the SC2 retcons are described as eating with their skin (somehow), although that is really inefficient for a large animal and should realistically cause them to starve.

I don't think the xel'naga had the level of engineering you described, or at least not at that speed. If they were long-lived then they could make incremental changes that change the structure of whole worlds, but they are still subject to natural selection pressures (like the incredible usefulness of mouths). Additionally, when the Zerg started doing their crazy gene splicing the xel'naga were surprised by how unpredictable and powerful this was (in the technical sense), suggesting that the Zerg were superior at it compared to the xel'naga.

This is similar to arguments in AI research about the potential dangers of self-learning self-modifying AI advancing beyond our understanding and control. The Zerg are a classic example of a "paperclip maximizer," although they cheat by being biological entities with fundamentally biological motives like survival and domination.

I don't know why you state that you don't like solar powered beings and in the same sentence you say you prefer plants. Plants are solar powered, specifically using photosynthesis.Also who said Protoss aren't psychic plants? I think your definitions are too narrow and "earth bound". Allow yourself to widen the possibilities. We're in a scifi setting.

"Scifi" isn't the same as throwing all sense of logic and any basis in real science aside. I am quite familiar with speculative biology and that is why the Protoss biology (specifically the SC2 retcons, not their vague SC1 appearance) peeves me.

Normal plants are solar powered. Animals that evolved from carnivorous plants would lose their photosynthesis. If Protoss evolved from carnivorous plants (or siphonophore jellyfish, as I suggested before), then it would make sense they would have mouths somewhere other than their head.

It is highly unlikely that any organism with a head would not have a mouth on it, as every single organism on earth with a head has a mouth on it (a good example would be cephalopods like octopus, squid and cuttlefish). For the sake of argument we can assume that Aiur had the perfect selection pressure for that. Although that doesn't explain the bengalas, which is virtually identical to an Earth panther and only makes sense as an introduced species (which actually fits quite well with the Protoss being a space empire so whatever).

I can agree on the last part though. I wouldn't mind their reasoning to be more alien.

I always thought the Protoss were too human-like in appearance and psychology. Their skull structure alone doesn't make much sense (although it has changed dramatically in different art): why have a jawbone if you lack a mouth? Is it supposed to support nostrils and/or gills? Looking at the portraits on battlenet: I'm pretty sure the Arbiter has gills and the Scout has a nose with a bridge and nostrils.

Compare that to the R'ha in the short film of the same name: their skull structure is elongated in comparison, less wasted space and seemingly makes more sense for an organism without a mouth in its head.

Also, I have not pointed out the biological implausibility of the Zerg. Their biology is pretty insane, but what surprised me is that some of it has a basis in computer and engineering science. The creep is an all purpose ecosystem that digests raw materials, is probably photosynthetic (it's even grey like photovoltaic cells), and acts as a circulatory system that provides nourishment to buildings and units alike.

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Thanks, you found me again. (aka. I now get where you're coming from.)

Pretty much every question I asked or perspective I offered is shut down by you essentially saying "But that isn't what scientists observe on earth.".2 major gripes with that position:- Where is the fiction part? (There's a huge range of possibilities between established scientific facts and fantasy)- We know so little about life. We really can't set any absolutes for what's impossible.

I don't think we can continue a fruitful debate when our viewpoints are so fundamentally different.

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Also, I have not pointed out the biological implausibility of the Zerg. Their biology is pretty insane

Indeed. The mouth vs no mouth discussion pales in comparison to what we have to swallow there.

Thanks, you found me again. (aka. I now get where you're coming from.)

Pretty much every question I asked or perspective I offered is shut down by you essentially saying "But that isn't what scientists observe on earth.".2 major gripes with that position:- Where is the fiction part? (There's a huge range of possibilities between established scientific facts and fantasy)- We know so little about life. We really can't set any absolutes for what's impossible.

I don't think we can continue a fruitful debate when our viewpoints are so fundamentally different.

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Also, I have not pointed out the biological implausibility of the Zerg. Their biology is pretty insane

Indeed. The mouth vs no mouth discussion pales in comparison to what we have to swallow there.

The difference between the Protoss and the Zerg is that the Zerg take established science to ridiculous extremes (and at one point memorably state they have no idea how mutalisks are able to fly, which was a nice touch), whereas the Protoss (at least in the retcons) actively defy basic scientific facts and throw around meaningless scientific-sounding buzzwords with no self-awareness.

Part of the scientific method is the ability to make predictions based on known data. We can set standards for what is impossible because physics is the same everywhere in the universe. The Protoss absolutely must subsist by eating other animals with some kind of feeding apparatus, because that is a hard limit imposed by the laws of physics.

Ironically a lot of my unfinished projects were centered around conflicts from alternate perspectives. Even in Inconsummate, you play as the zerg during the vanilla protoss campaign. Other premises included the Confederate perspective during the invasion of Mar Sara w/ the Sons of Korhal as an enemy; the Nerazim perspective while the Overmind invades Shakuras instead of Aiur and infests Raszagal; the Khalai perspective if Fenix died in Antioch and Umojan scientists meddled with cerebrates on Aiur. Very few of them strayed away from the central locales introduced by the main story, though the ones that did basically designed entire new factions and societies bereft of any real link to the narratives we're familiar with. I'm sure there's a middle ground between augmenting the lore and ignoring it entirely, I just haven't sought it out yet.

I'm in the process of playing a bunch of older campaigns, so I'm sure I'll run into one that fits your description eventually.

The problem may be succinctly labeled "small universe syndrome." The manual explained that there were many worlds in the Protoss Empire (approx. 1/8 of the galaxy or ~25-50 billion stars), the Nerazim are nomadic, and conflicts typically lasted years or even centuries. The games acted as if only a half-dozen planets (e.g. Mar Sara, Korhal, Char, Aiur) existed and that these wars lasted only a few weeks. That is not plausible: the Great War should last for years and devastate hundreds of worlds if we are pretending to be remotely realistic. Terrans visiting Aiur or teaming up with Protoss is unbelievable due to the vast distances involved (koprulu is on the frontier of Protoss space) and the Protoss' genocide against Terran worlds.

I would prefer to avoid small universe syndrome, so the vast scales given in the manual are an effective outlet. For example, I decided to contemplate the Nerazim being nomadic by introducing elements of real nomadic tribes. Namely, nomadic tribes migrate in predictable patterns due to seasons, food, etc. Thus, it would make sense that a Nerazim tribe would migrate across a predictable series of planet waypoints; they follow the game animals, like humans, considering their evolution as pack hunters. It would also make sense for them to build a network of warp gates which allows them to do so without spacecraft, just in case there are Protoss observers around. After Zeratul kills Zasz and unintentionally leaks military intel, it makes sense the Zerg would send broods to the Nerazim worlds to kill them. When a brood is assaulting a Nerazim waypoint, what would be the first logical target? The spacecraft, the gates, and the communication hubs (psi-spires?).

The story seems to write itself, no?

As I was saying before getting distracted, the official campaigns (aside from Insurrection and Retribution) suffer from a severe case of small world syndrome that I believe has strangled the creativity of most custom campaigns. I have my criticisms of the official story (basically I think the narrative falls apart after Rebel Yell and the story doesn't do the Zerg or Protoss justice), which have been addressed in the fanfic bible "Enumerate" (EN) that I mentioned before (although the writer admitted he find the Protoss bland).

The "alternate perspectives" could be better contextualized using the SC expanded universe, not just EN.

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the Confederate perspective during the invasion of Mar Sara w/ the Sons of Korhal as an enemy

Mar Sara fell within a couple of weeks, although the official timeline is always iffy (different sources give anywhere from one to several weeks). The Antigan Revolt lasted around half a year according to the Nova novel, although one of the comics retconned it to a few weeks (which I will ignore because that contradicts numerous other events and is generally unrealistic). However, this ignores the numerous other Terrans worlds that were probably experiencing internecine strife at the time (e.g. Brontes IV in Insurrection), as well as events in the backstory like the Confederacy secretly poisoning frontier worlds with "cholera" to keep people from noticing the Zerg vanguard (this probably had wide-reaching economic effects, civil strife, refugee exoduses, etc). The Umojans, according to some sources, were secretly financing the Sons of Korhal and possibly other rebel groups (EN makes this explicit). Even without following EN (which makes fairly minor changes to this section of history, aside from the KMC suffering devastating losses against the Zerg before the Great War even starts), there is still a huge amount of territory that could be explored.

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the Nerazim perspective while the Overmind invades Shakuras instead of Aiur and infests Raszagal

In BW Raszagal was never actually infested, just brainwashed; this is a notable plot hole, as there was no point in the timeline when she could have been brainwashed. In EN, the Zerg simply invade the Nerazim nomadic enclaves at the same time they invade the khalai worlds (they spent millennia building the Swarm, so this isn't surprising). Notably, the Nerazim are taken unawares by the Zerg invasion and after the Overmind dies they start studying the Zerg (including enslavement, a la the Enslavers campaign; Khalaites do this too) and sending explorers to Koprulu. Even before then, the official backstory has small bands of Nerazim visiting Koprulu to investigate the source of the Zerg space probes and testing their mettle against packs of Zerg (proud warrior race, remember?).

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the Khalai perspective if Fenix died in Antioch

Certainly. Something which I liked about Retribution, despite its generally boring story, is that it tried to flesh out the strategies and motivations of the races. There are situations like scientists trying to capture cerebrates for study or using khaydarin crystals to mind control protoss (I thought this was really strange, so I would just rationalize these Protoss as purifier robots who were released from a tomb, since the campaign relies on archaelogy). At one point the campaign mentions that the Protoss routinely kill cerebrates in order to disrupt Zerg cohesion. While the cerebrates will be replaced (grown from a larva or something? IDK), this takes time and leaves the brood vulnerable (but by no means defenseless!). I find this change preferable and I think it fits better with the manual explaining that the Zerg feared the Protoss and needed psychic Terrans in order to fight on an even playing field. (It also fits better with the manual explaining that the Overmind, and presumably cerebrates as well, were created by merging the consciousness of the existing Swarms.)

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Umojan scientists meddled with cerebrates on Aiur.

I find it unlikely that Terrans would ever visit Aiur. Firstly, Koprulu in at the far edge of Protoss space and Aiur is the capital of the empire, meaning at minimum there would be many thousands of light years to travel (Koprulu is a couple dozen light years in width at most, since that's the range of the psi-emitters which attracted Zerg in mass to Koprulu). Secondly, how would they learn its coordinates and travel there when their FTL drives are really slow in comparison to Protoss (as Protoss space encompasses an 8th of the galaxy)? Thirdly, why wouldn't Umoja (or the cerebrates) notice the hundreds of inhabited worlds (including both protoss and client alien races mentioned in the manual) between koprulu and aiur?

EN handles this elegantly: after capturing loads of psychics for their experiments, the Zerg leave behind broods in Koprulu to exterminate the remaining Terrans (as is standard procedure mentioned in the manual) and these broods become targets of experiments (particularly after the Overmind dies when their hive mind is vulnerable). The Terrans and Protoss never team up (at least not in large numbers, Insurrection being an example of alliance of convenience) until after the end of the Brood Wars when the Overmind is resurrected.

The main barriers to any alliance are the Protoss (particularly the judicators) being pompous jerks who glassed multiple Terran worlds. I always found it strange that Raynor's raiders would team up with Tassadar even though he and his subordinates are technically guilty of multiple counts of genocide. Even if the Protoss were trying (and failing) to contain the Zerg, humans are emotional and won't accept that excuse. Teaming up with the Nerazim seems much more likely: once it is explained that the Nerazim nearly suffered the same fate at the hands of the Khalaites, it seems only natural they would band with the Terrans for mutual survival. Ulrezaj almost certainly would deliberately take advantage of these feelings to get allies in his crusade against the empire; for that matter, so would the Fist of Redemption (Terrans who worship the Zerg, and had a temporary alliance with at least one cerebrate on Brontes IV).

That's only my opinion, though. The SC EU has a lot of interesting elements that could be explored further, and EN provides a better framework for exploring them by adopting a larger scale that isn't beholden to "main characters" to do everything important.

KrayZee -- Stan Lee cameos are fine, I'm mostly referring to dumb jokes. For example, my main problem about the Justice League film is how Joss Whedon brought in stupid Marvel jokes that does not belong anywhere in the film.