Just letting people know what the latest "slander" from them on Vick is:

Pro Football Talk wrote:

VICK SPIN MACHINE CONTINUES TO CHURN

In the wake of the Falcons' decision to demote former starting receiver Dez White to the bottom of the depth chart, league insiders are saying that it's just the latest example of the in-house efforts to excuse quarterback Michael Vick's flaws by placing blame on other players.

As one league source told us, "Mora can promote every f--king receiver he wants, and he can go back in time to get Raymond Berry, Jerry Rice, Lynn Swann, and Steve Largent. It wouldn't matter. Vick still sucks at throwing the football consistently. All they are doing down there is making more excuses for the fact that he just isn't that good of a passer."

As another league insider put it: "Coaches and front office people do funny things when they don't want to admit that a player isn't what they figured he would be."

On Thursday, Falcons coach Jim Mora did another "funny thing" when asked by a New York reporter about Vick's progress as a "quarterback, per se."

"What do you mean, 'per se?'" Mora said, according to The New York Daily News. "In the mold of Peyton Manning or in the mold of Mike Vick? Because, in the mold of Mike Vick, he's outstanding. I think it's unfortunate that people always put him in a mold. Let him be him. He's a quarterback. He's a great quarterback.

"When are we going to start talking about when Peyton Manning is going to start doing what Mike Vick does?" Mora said. "Let's flip it. The guy wins games, and that's the role of a quarterback, to win games. He doesn't need to do anything. I think it's ridiculous that people keep asking me that question. I don't know why people are so narrow-minded that they can't understand why the guy is a great player."

Jim, no one is saying he's not a great player. The point is that he's not a great pocket passer, and cutting Peerless Price or Dez White won't make Vick a better pocket passer.

Our guess is that, in time, Brian Finneran and then Michael Jenkins and then Roddy White will be demoted as the revolving door of receivers continues. And even though Terrell Owens has expressed interest in joining the team, maybe the Falcons realize that they can't credibly blame him when Vick rarely throws T.O. the ball because Vick's first instinct is to pull it down and run when the pocket cracks -- or to throw it to tight end Alge Crumpler when Vick gets toward the sideline.

Hell, why not just poop-can all of the receivers and go with two running backs and three tight ends on every play? If the defense puts corners or safeties on the tight ends, throw them a short pass and let them bowl the guys over. If the defense uses linebackers, Vick sprints to the outside.

We like Mora -- but we'd have a lot more respect for him if he would just recognize what everyone else around the league has already figured out.

And ain't it funny that, as we pointed out in a Thursday Morning One-Liner on Collegefootballtalk.com, that Vick's little brother Marcus doesn't want to be like Mike.

Instead, Marcus is emulating Peyton Manning.

Usually, I give PFT the benefit of the doubt. But this one is just blatant slander. Anybody who knows anything about the Falcons would have known that demoting White was a move long in coming. The problem with this article is that it makes no mention of the truly poor play that White was experiencing this season. This statement says it all:

Quote:

The point is that he's not a great pocket passer, and cutting Peerless Price or Dez White won't make Vick a better pocket passer.

The problem is that White and Price definitely weren't helping. Now I've never been of the school that believed Peerless Price was a terrible player. He definitely underachieved during his time in Atlanta. But White has been absolutely terrible this year, and if the two league insiders had been inside the situation here in Atlanta, they would have never made that statements they were quoted as saying above, because of how sucky Dez has been.

Now I do agree with PFT in that I don't think Vick will ever be a great pocket passer, and probably at best will be average to above average for an NFL starter. But this "Vick is not as good as people hype him to be, or he is a RB, or he can't throw, etc." talk is just a bit like old news.

And basically what MOra is trying to get across to answer these critics with a big fat "SO?"

I don't think Mora/Knapp, or Blank are every going to put that expectation onto Vick that he has to complete 60% of his passes and avearge 250 yards per game, and have a TD-INT ratio of 2:1 or 3:1. Vick wins, and that's all that matters to Mora, Knapp, and Blank. And they aren't going to change things as long as that keeps happening. I know I'm finally buying into it, but the problem is that PFT refuses to do so.

I saw this too, and yes, Vick isn't the best passer, but you know what? No one is perfect. Vick's ability to cause havic is wonderful and he is an alright passer. Unfortunately White can't catch a ball or his number would be higher. I think our receivers are getting better and better, but White couldn't catch anything at all. Every ball that hit him in the hands was dropped. Now that Finn is starting, I bet you see a lot more catches caught and a more open offense. Finn is Vick's favorite and Jenkins is starting to come around too. I think we are about to see a new Vick in the next few weeks. Watch out because he's about to turn some heads. Go Falcons!!!

We don't need them to tell us what a pocket passer looks like. Chandler, Bartkowski, give me a break. Vick is not and will not be a pocket passer, but you know what, i like it that way. It fills the seats and makes the home games DAMN GREAT! The atmosphere is on fire. No more crude Succaneer fans sitting on my Marta trains singing their lewd fight songs. No more mass tickets for you punks. Buy them on Ebay for three times the price, morons. Just makes me laugh all the more when i see the handful walking out with mouths shut.

Vick is not and will not be a pocket passer, but you know what, i like it that way. It fills the seats and makes the home games DAMN GREAT!

I see what you're saying MBM, but Mike Vick is one blown knee away from not being able to use his legs to make plays. If he doesn't know how to be a pocket passer when that happens, his career is over.

i think the article is pretty much dead on. HOWEVER, if you watch all falcons games you'd see that Vick's completion percentatage would be atleast 5% higher if his receivers would catch the damn ball. that being said though he just isn't a pocket passer and he's certainly not accurate in NFL terms.

Who isn't one blown knee away from being done in this league? That article may have had a hint of truth but anyone who has actually watched all the Falcons games, gone over tape, etc will see that Dez was horrible and Price got paycheck happy. I don't remember Price catching any more passes with Johnson/Kitner or Schaub on the field.

One thing that did strike me however was the Finn interview from a week ago. When asked about who he would rather catch a pass from he said Schauby and who was the best QB he had ever caught a pass from he said Chandler "because he would put it right in your back pocket". This, combined with talk from Farve's recievers in his prime make me understand Vick's real problems. He is a bullet passer (like Farve who could bruise you with throws) AND he is a lefty which makes the ball harder to catch if you are not used to it. That learning curve is tough, and not every reciever in the league can catch on (Price/White), but if they do then catches can be made and numbers go up (Crump/Finn). Deep balls are about timing and correct routes (R. White) which will be learned with more reps between the QB and the WRs.

Vick is an Athlete, no matter how smart he is or isn't, and being one means he will naturally learn how to throw if he consistantly moves the ball around the field. I have faith that the pieces are now in place for him to make strides in his passing game. He may never be Carson Palmer, but he is a winner and that is ALL that matters. As for all the Peyton Manning hype, well he has been with Harrison his whole career and is in his 8th year, PLUS he never made it to a National Championship Game in the NCAA, and both he and Vick have been to a League Championship game (Vick 4 years faster) so the Colts can keep Manning for all I care.

MF1

_________________"I am certainly not afraid to have Brian Finneran on the field. Has he ever not made plays? He just makes plays. He is one of those guys that just makes plays. He is dependable."

That's classic homer denial. Vick is not accurate and as of today has very little touch on his passes. This is 2005 and players do come back from torn MCL's and so on. If Vick loses a step because of injury or age, the passing skills he posses as of right now are not enough to keep him as a starter in this league.

That's classic homer denial. Vick is not accurate and as of today has very little touch on his passes. This is 2005 and players do come back from torn MCL's and so on. If Vick loses a step because of injury or age, the passing skills he posses as of right now are not enough to keep him as a starter in this league.

Actually what you should be saying is the talent level on this team is not enough to keep him as a starter on this team should he lose speed. I am confident that if he were to play in Oakland, Indy, or a number of other teams with quality wideouts, Vick would be talked about much differently. The fact is Vick's receivers at Va Tech were less than stellar with his #1 being bounced around the NFL earlier this year. Yet they somehow managed to miraculously catch these lasers on a consistent enough basis to make Vick the nation's highest rated passer in his FRESHMAN year. Yet somehow since then he has magically become an inaccurate passer who is one bad hit away from his career being over now..........?

I am confident that if he were to play in Oakland, Indy, or a number of other teams with quality wideouts, Vick would be talked about much differently. The fact is Vick's receivers at Va Tech were less than stellar with his #1 being bounced around the NFL earlier this year. Yet they somehow managed to miraculously catch these lasers on a consistent enough basis to make Vick the nation's highest rated passer in his FRESHMAN year.

I respectfully disagree. Vick is often high on throws, low on throws, throw it to hard when tough is involved or too soft when he needs a bullet. Moss, Holt nor anyone else can catch a pass 7 yards over his head or 7 yards behind him. Can that part of his game change? I think so. It comes with experience. But the fact is, no matter how many fans deny it, is right now, he is not an accurate passer. What I was saying and maybe it's not coming out as I intend it is, if Vick tears his MCL,ACL and so on tonight and comes back wth average speed, he doesn't have the passing skills to thrive in the league.

That being said, he has improved his decision making this year and is running smarter. His "potential" is second to none and I hope he stays healthy long enough to scratch it.

As for the comment about one-hit away from out of the league, it's totally true. Penninton basically was one shoulder hit away from being out. Honestly, how well did he perform coming back, and how well now that he's torn it again? What about Thiesman? That was one hit. Yes, Mike's legs are a part of his package, and he's going to be pressed to produce if he becomes an immoblie QB - but honestly, that's the risk everyone faces in this league.

I think you're misinterpretting what I meant. Right now, all Vick has are his legs. If they go, what can he do? Magically become an accurate pocket passer over night? Answer this honestly, say Vick goes down with a major knee problem. Do you think he can come in next season and still win just with his arm? IMO, I don't think he can.

Last edited by AngryJohnny51 on Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The only saving grace of Mike Vicks passing game and a reason why he's more a winner then a loser is the fact that defenses have a hard time picking him off. Receivers have a hard time getting their hands on Vick's red hot bullets much less DB's with poor hands. Most Vick INT's come off of a tip or a bad pass trying to make something happen from nothing. Of course there is also Vick's rushing (344 Carries, 2,507 Yards, 7.3 YPC, 14 TD's) which make him dangerous. Take away that and he is a horrible QB; no he's not even average.

Notice in the second list how many players ended up losing their starting jobs? Yes we have bad receivers but great Quarterbacks make bad receivers average, average receivers good, good receivers great, and great receivers legends.

Look at Donovan McNabb... Without T.O. he still put up good passing numbers with absolutely horrible receivers. I want Vick to succeed and I want him to be great but the cards just are not stacking up in his favor. If he cannot succeed with Finneran & Jenkins at receiver then he will never be a good passer.

It would appear that 16 for 32 for 300 Yards and 2 TD's could be a career game for Vick and that is unnacceptable for a starting QB in this league. But Vick wins and this team is built around the run for which Vick fits well. As long as we keep winning I'm fine with Vick. But as soon as we start losing games because the offense can't get it done it's time to re-assess our positions.

In summary - I'm not saying that youâ€™re wrong to say Vick can not be as successful with just his arm as he is now. I'm saying that I think it's wrong to criticize him for depending on his legs when other folks in the league do the same thing, but with their arms.

I am not criticizing him for using his legs at all. He brings a different diminsion to the position that no one before him has ever done. What I disagree with is people who think he is more of a passer than he is. If any qb has a serious arm/shoulder injury like Pennington, of course their career is in jeoprady. If any qb in the league blows a knee, they can still play. I don't believe that to be the case with Vick, not now in his career. That's where my "homer denial" comment came from. He's a great scrammbler and runner, but take that away and I garauntee you he won't have 66% winning percentage like he has know, no matter who his bookends are.

In summary - I'm not saying that youâ€™re wrong to say Vick can not be as successful with just his arm as he is now. I'm saying that I think it's wrong to criticize him for depending on his legs when other folks in the league do the same thing, but with their arms.

I am not criticizing him for using his legs at all. He brings a different diminsion to the position that no one before him has ever done. What I disagree with is people who think he is more of a passer than he is. If any qb has a serious arm/shoulder injury like Pennington, of course their career is in jeoprady. If any qb in the league blows a knee, they can still play. I don't believe that to be the case with Vick, not now in his career. That's where my "homer denial" comment came from. He's a great scrammbler and runner, but take that away and I garauntee you he won't have 66% winning percentage like he has know, no matter who his bookends are.

I'm with Angry on this one. We really have to view Vick as a runningback in injury regards on this one. A RB can bounce back from one knee injury in most cases but they slow down a bit. If Vick suffers two injuries he could go the Jamal Anderson route. I don't think Vick has the passing skills necessary to survive in the NFL without his legs. He would more or less devolve into on Kordell Stewart IMO.

A while ago somebody did the stats on Vick's passing by quarters. He was awesome in the 1st and 4th and horrible in the 2nd and 3rd. Combine all 4 and you get an average QB at best I agree... stat wise. Still, legs or no, Vick is a winner. With him on the field we have a chance and his 4th and 1st quarter numbers prove he can throw. What did he do for us last week? Hmmmm, went four for four with less than a minute left, drove the field and punked the Saints. Watch his late drives for a while and tell me the guy can't make the money throws. Does anyone remember his rook year at GB? He converted 3 20+ 3rd downs in a row late in that game. The NFL interviewed Culpepper, McNabb and Vick last year for the playoffs together. What did BOTH Pep and Nabb say to the press...."Somebody get this guy a reciever!" Ask Pep what Randy Moss and Chris Carter meant to him. McNabb can throw, hands down, but he got to the Super Bowl with T.O. (well he got home field with him at least ) and Vick has gotten to the Championship without one of those 'rare talent, throw the ball up for a pass int call or a TD' type of reciever. Can Crump catch? Darn right, he doesn't seem to have a problem with drops, but you want to make Vick the goat because his WRs drop balls that a TE is catching? Whatever floats your boat I guess but they guy has been effected by crappy WRs which may just have dropped him from a 'good' passing QB to Dirty's List of Shame. Sure, if his leg gets nailed he may be done, but don't ever put the guy with the likes of Ramsey or Rattay because of a %. That is as stupid as ranking NFL defenses on yards and not points allowed *cough*.

_________________"I am certainly not afraid to have Brian Finneran on the field. Has he ever not made plays? He just makes plays. He is one of those guys that just makes plays. He is dependable."

A while ago somebody did the stats on Vick's passing by quarters. He was awesome in the 1st and 4th and horrible in the 2nd and 3rd. Combine all 4 and you get an average QB at best I agree... stat wise. Still, legs or no, Vick is a winner. With him on the field we have a chance and his 4th and 1st quarter numbers prove he can throw. What did he do for us last week? Hmmmm, went four for four with less than a minute left, drove the field and punked the Saints. Watch his late drives for a while and tell me the guy can't make the money throws. Does anyone remember his rook year at GB? He converted 3 20+ 3rd downs in a row late in that game. The NFL interviewed Culpepper, McNabb and Vick last year for the playoffs together. What did BOTH Pep and Nabb say to the press...."Somebody get this guy a reciever!" Ask Pep what Randy Moss and Chris Carter meant to him. McNabb can throw, hands down, but he got to the Super Bowl with T.O. (well he got home field with him at least ) and Vick has gotten to the Championship without one of those 'rare talent, throw the ball up for a pass int call or a TD' type of reciever. Can Crump catch? Darn right, he doesn't seem to have a problem with drops, but you want to make Vick the goat because his WRs drop balls that a TE is catching? Whatever floats your boat I guess but they guy has been effected by crappy WRs which may just have dropped him from a 'good' passing QB to Dirty's List of Shame. Sure, if his leg gets nailed he may be done, but don't ever put the guy with the likes of Ramsey or Rattay because of a %. That is as stupid as ranking NFL defenses on yards and not points allowed *cough*.

Well, we can agree to disagree Maryland. You are right, all Vick does is win and that's the bottom line. (I think he wins because of his legs and dispite his arm and you feel he wins because of his legs and arm, but despite his receivers. It's all good!)

I'm flustered by average or lack-of-average production from our supposed star players this year.

Vick - Up and down (to be expected), seems to have overall taken a step backwards in passing progression.Brooking - Where are you man?! One good game.DeLo - Where are you man?! 1.5 good games all year.Hartwell - OutKerney - Up and down.Jenkins - Not developing, finally seeing some progression.Rossum - HesitantScott - DissappearedPrice - CutWhite - Demoted

I mean were are the regulars that are suppose to be our star players? We keep winning but many times I don't know how the hell we managed to do it.

[quote="dirtybirdnw"]Look at Donovan McNabb... Without T.O. he still put up good passing numbers with absolutely horrible receivers. I want Vick to succeed and I want him to be great but the cards just are not stacking up in his favor. If he cannot succeed with Finneran & Jenkins at receiver then he will never be a good passer. quote]

I don't think you can quite say that...What if Vick got T.O., bad for the team, but we're talking about vick and a WR...What if he gets a guy that he can throw Sh!t passes too and he can somehow catch it...not likely

Saying that if u cant succed with FinN and Jenkins, shouldn't be done either...there nothing special...now if he would succeed with them in, than he would be something very special, but who knows, he might be special with a great WR

But that is just my opinion

_________________"It's a privilege to wear this winged helmet," English says. "It's about Michigan today. Show everyone why this is the best program in the country!"

I would agree that if Vick had T.O. he wouldn't instantly be as good a QB as McNabb, but I think T.O.'s presence on this football team (excluding his off-field issues) would be a huge boost to Vick.

One of the issues the Falcons face is the fact that Vick has no reliable receiving option besides Crumpler. You look at every successful QB in NFL history, and he had a go-to receiver that he could rely on in the tough situations. A guy that when he was in trouble, he could throw it up and be confident that his guy would catch it. I don't think I need to go through all the greats and their go-to guys now, as I'm sure everybody is more than capable of doing that.

But Vick doesn't have that. And a TE can only take you so far, if he's your most reliable target. Especially if you're a young QB trying to develop.

T.O. is that type of receiver for McNabb, and you see how much his produciton has increased in 2004 and 2005 when compared to his previous 3 seasons in Philly.

But it is difficult to get that type of receiver, particularly when you're a team that is not drafting in the Top 10 or 15 picks in the draft or have a wealth of cap space to spend on one. The Falcons are missing out in both cases. That doesn't mean a quality receiver can't fall to the late 1st or 2nd or 3rd round (see Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, and Hines Ward), but it's much harder to find then than it is in the top half of Round 1 or by spending $30 million+.

The Falcons took a chance on Peerless Price. It didn't work out. The Falcons used #1s on Jenkins and White, and thus far it doesn't look like it's working out. Not to say either can't or won't develop into quality NFL starters, but neither look like they have the seemingly telepathic connection with Vick that he shares with Crumpler, and other QBs share with their #1 receivers. Look at how quickly Burress and Manning have gelled in NY. Granted, neither Jenkins nor WHite are as talent as Burress, and Vick will never be the sort of passer Eli will become (or is now), but you can't help but be a little envious and wonder if similar things would have happened here if Plex had been signed by the Falcons.

THe Falcons have missed opportunities on other receivers, mostly because those players carried extra baggage that the coaching staff/front office/ownership wanted to avoid (Burress is no exception).

Will the Falcons ever get their man at WR? I really have no evidence to say yes or no. But it doesn't bode well for us since McKay was NEVER able to get that player in Tampa Bay without giving up two 1st round picks for him. That guy was Keyshawn Johnson.

The Falcons may have the chance to pursue Reggie Wayne after this season. If they don't get Wayne (and I'm not advocating that we necessarily should get him), does that mean the Falcons only alternative is to send a 1st rounder to a team like Arizona for Anquan Boldin?...

One of the issues the Falcons face is the fact that Vick has no reliable receiving option besides Crumpler. You look at every successful QB in NFL history, and he had a go-to receiver that he could rely on in the tough situations. A guy that when he was in trouble, he could throw it up and be confident that his guy would catch it.

Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalas are the go to guys on their respected teams. I'm assuming when you say tough situation, you mean a third and long in the dying minutes to keep a drive going... the "Crump' Truck fits the bill.As for the other greats who had the go to wide outs, part of it was the quarterback. He would throw it up accurately, giving his man more of a chance to get it, rather than to far behind, too far in general and so on.

Pudge wrote:

The Falcons used #1s on Jenkins and White, and thus far it doesn't look like it's working out

That's very premature in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, they are both rookies and they don't look that bad. After 3 or 4 years if things don't change with them I will share your opinion, but anything before that is well, just pure speculation.

Pudge wrote:

but neither look like they have the seemingly telepathic connection with Vick that he shares with Crumpler, and other QBs share with their #1 receivers.

Again, it's early. Vick and Crump have been together a lot longer than Rowdy and Jenkins have been seeing first team reps. As for Burress connecting with Manning, he should. He's a 5 year vet....

Pudge wrote:

THe Falcons have missed opportunities on other receivers, mostly because those players carried extra baggage that the coaching staff/front office/ownership wanted to avoid (Burress is no exception).

And that's okay with me. Give me character guys who have never ending motors over more talented a-holes wh won't gel with the rest of the team.

[quote=Pudge"]Will the Falcons ever get their man at WR? I really have no evidence to say yes or no. But it doesn't bode well for us since McKay was NEVER able to get that player in Tampa Bay without giving up two 1st round picks for him. That guy was Keyshawn Johnson[/quote]

We may have two right now. we'll have to wait and see as we build.

Pudge wrote:

The Falcons may have the chance to pursue Reggie Wayne after this season.

We won't and you can thank Peerless for that.

Some stats from your boys mentioned above:

Terrell Owens' rookie year - 35 catches for 520 yards and 4 td's with the most accurate passer in history (statistically) Steve Young throwing it to him. And oh yeah, the 9ers were pretty good back then as well.

Plaxico Burress' rookie year - 22 catches for 273 yards and no td's on a pretty good team.

Chad Johnson's rookie year - 28 catches for 329 yards and 1 td.

Hines Ward rookie year - 15 catches for 246 yards and no td's.

Michael Jenkins on pace for 34 catches for 568 yards and 2 td's on the number one rushing team in the NFL.

I would agree that if Vick had T.O. he wouldn't instantly be as good a QB as McNabb, but I think T.O.'s presence on this football team (excluding his off-field issues) would be a huge boost to Vick.

But Vick doesn't have that. And a TE can only take you so far, if he's your most reliable target. Especially if you're a young QB trying to develop.

Well Gonzo at one point in his career was posting numbers like a receiver and was even a Top 10 receiver at one point. Crumpler is Vick's safety zone but everyone wants him to hit the wideouts and he tries to hard to do so. Just throw it to were you feel comfortable. From what I've seen that is Crumpler and the flats. We need more screen passes.

Also, McNabb before T.O. was a better Quarterback then Vick has ever been thus far.

In most cases the go to receiver is a relationship built from a rookie receiver (ala Jenkins or Roddy White). Whether or not that ever comes about we have no idea hopefully it does.

But receivers don't matter when Vick cannot throw the ball accurately. I don't care if your Jerry Rice or Terrell Owens you are not catching a ball thrown at your feet; 3 feet over your head; or 3 feet to the left or right of you. I'm sorry but Vick has no accuracy or touch and he's had 5 years to figure out how to toss the pig and he still can't do it. Furthermore he's had 2 years in the offensive system with his three primary targets now with him for almost all 5 years (Finneran, Crumpler, Dunn) and he still can't hit anyone outside of Crumpler with any consistently. Apparently PFW is right in saying we need to go the 2 back, 3 TE set because all Vick can do is pass the rock to the tight ends.

I'm tired of hearing every single year that "This is the year he figures out what passing means." Every single year and every single year we get the same lost looking, haphazard, whirling dervish that is Mike Vick. Fortunately for Vick outside of consistently being a bad passer all he does is win games. If it wasn't for that I'd be calling for his head right now. NO other Quarterback in the league could get away with some of the games Vick has turned in and remain a starter.

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