Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

JNowe:miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.

Well, the last time there was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists on American soil where civilians died the US soon became embroiled in two costly, long-lasting, bloody conflicts. A call for perspective and rational action isn't completely unwarranted.

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.I've known hijab-wearing Muslims who were very faithful, but, like most major religions, believe in loving one another and being respectful to other faiths. It's those that use their religion as an excuse to hate that are the problem, whatever their faith.

Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

brandent:nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

The difference between radical violent Christians and radical violent Islamists is simple. If a person reads the New Testament and adheres strictly to the teachings of Jesus then they would soon come to the conclusion that they are pacifist and probably socialist and defenders of tolerance, love, and inclusion. If a person reads the teachings of Mohammed and follows them strictly then they would soon come to the conclusion that it is a doctrine of violence and intolerance.

I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran. I'm also going to guess that your in-depth study of Islam involves watching TV and movies and listening to the opinions of right-wing columnists, radio show hosts and preachers. In fact I'm going to double down and guess you've only the slightest passing familiarity with the more-quoted bits of the Bible and are Christian by default, and spend about as much time learning about your relgion on a weekly basis as you devote to nail care.

Magorn:Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Quoting this because it's a thing that should be quoted. Something shiatty happened in this guy's life that flipped the switch from good to ear-twitchingly bazoo. Allah was a front-seat passenger on the road to crazy, he picked the radio station but he wasn't driving.

Tatsuma:Magorn: Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain. Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better

Except that he didn't pick up Islam in Chechnya. First of all, he became radicalized in America, and if you look at his youtube feed (and the twitter of his brother) they were very keen on Wahhabist preachers from Saudi Arabia. Second of all, where he went to train for this in 2012 for six months was in Dagestan, which is the Caucasus Wahhabist central.

And by the way, out of Dagestan in the 90s the Wahhabists did move on to Chechnya in order to form cells and change the country as well.

So yeah, maybe you should think about doing your homework on this.

You've got a very different

Tatsuma:Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, and therefore giving cover and protection to Radical Islamists, realize just how much Muslims everywhere around the world suffer under the hand of those Islamists? Whether it's the Talibans in Afghanistan poisoning schoolgirls, the Vice Police in Saudia Arabia beating a man and woman to death for speaking in a super-market or Muslim Brotherhood thugs forcing 'virginity tests' on women protesting in front of Parliament, the first victims of Islamic fundamentalism are other Muslims.

There is a difference between Mainstream Islam and Radical Islam, but the more we pretend that there is not, the easier it is for the Radicals to come over and poison the minds of Muslims in America itself and leading to situations like it did with these two brothers. They are already well advanced in Europe, let's not let it happen in America.

American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.

I don't think anyone is "defending" radical anything. But they do want a distinction made between the relgion and the actions of people like this. Whenever stories filter out of Israel of the actions of extremist ultra-ultra-Orthodox sects, that seem almost Taliban-like, you are the first one to step up and say to people, "These guys are NOT representative of mainstream Judaism not even the Orthodox kind, they are abunch of misguided fantics who most of us can't stand" and rightfully so, because that's the truth, and you have an interest in not seeing something you care about painted with a broad brush by the actions of a stupid few. I'm Roman Catholic, so I can't tell you how many times I've been compelled to post, "Hey not ALL priests are kiddy-farkers, just SOME of them" . I think Muslims are entitled to the same disclaimers. There are over 1 Billion Muslims in this world, the vast majority of whom are fine people, and they should be allowed to say "hey these asshats are not on us" just like we can.

nmemkha:Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities

Bullcrap. That is revisionist history. Christianity was one battle away from being wiped out in Europe. Muslims were taking land as fast as they could ride through it. The first Crusade was completely about survival for the church and Christianity in general. The subsequent Crusades were more about land grabs and there is where a lot of the atrocities you speak of came into it but to try and hold Islam blameless during that time in history is revisionisit history and wrong.

jso2897:And that would be stupid. We should only burn Korans, like sensible people.

We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.

I mean in this thread I've already learned that: really right-wing xians are the real terrorists, really environment nutcases are the real terrorists and really Islamic terrorism does not really exist.

The more I think about it the more I realize that this radicalization is like spam email. You send out your crazy-ass messages to everyone and 99.99999% of the people completely ignore your asinine rantings but that 0.00001% picks it up and goes with it. It's very cost effective way to promote your crazy, and since the person sending out the spam is nuts and the persons who acts on it is nuts, it's not surprising that the message is completely incoherent.

Hickory-smoked:bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.

Why don't we have more hand wringing about the 200,000 muslims in this country that are probably radicalized? No, we would much rather point out that other cultures have killers too. Let's stop bending over backwards to find excuses for this.

advex101:Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2. Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.

Except it was private cameras that identified them, not public CCTV, not some federally mandated black box on our cars that rats on us, etc. Surveillance state is bad. Forcing people to incriminate themselves with their own footage is bad. A store volunteering their security tape to identify the bomber is not bad.

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.

I can't believe this!! IF these dudes were brown, there would be no doubt in anybodys mind that this was a Islamist Jihadist attack, but now that these dudes are white everybody seems to be making up excuses on how this could happen to anybody. Yes! this is a muslim terrorist attack. Muslims come in all colors. Does everybody realize that there are a lotta yellow muslims as well (eg. Indonesia), so if you see an attack from an Asian looking muslim extremist - is that gonna confuse the hell outta everybody again? It's the religion - it's not the color of their skin.

give me doughnuts:MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse. It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males

You're not really good at counting, are you?

Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24? Whatever. You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet. This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet. Your mother must be very proud.

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

It's not covering for Islam. It's the fear that peabrained bigots will go apeshiat again and cheer us into another horrific Oil War because TERROR. Incidentally I'm glad you woke from your 12 year coma. You have some catching up to do.

Well? And what's the percentage of the overall Saturday Mornin' Imams doing it worldwide, considering there's a billion or so Muslins out there.

I'll tell you this much: Back in my Christian days I attended a fairly large (for Metro DC) Episcopal church. This church was attended by many of the flunkies of the George W Bush administration. W'd just taken office when I was attending this church. The church grew more "Dominionist", with the pastor, previously a very reasonable, thoughtful guy, saying that as Christians in the Federal Government, we should be guided by the Holy Spirit to bring about God's Law for America. For how can God bless America if we allow the Fed to approve Teh Ghey, Abortions, Evolutions, all that paganny kind of heathen savagery.

This was not some podunk uncle-humper church in the backwoods. This was not some remote congregation of 6 people meeting in some prairie tool shed under the leadership of a self-ordained Evangelical Minister. This was a well-heeled Episcopal church inside the Beltway, not 10 miles from Homeland's Capitol Building. Admonishing believers to put Conservative Christian, "Bible-based" principles before the Constitution, in order to gain the blessing of Christian BibleGod.

Granted, there was no talk of killing anyone or blowing up buildings, but the end result of undermining the Constitution of the United States, a secular institution, and replacing it with a theocracy remained the same.

fireclown:Resident Muslim: /sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle

No problem. A turkey would have been fine, a Thanksgiving Turkey, not so much.

I was pretty sure that there were Muslims on Fark, but I could see a certain avoidance of some threads having developed over time. Good on ya for providing a much needed service as ambassador.

Blushing? Who's blushing?!;)

I've actually found Fark to be well-knowledged about Islam, with many non-Muslims (atheists, agnostics, Christians and Jews etc) dispelling many myths, and I personally thank them or that.I know there are trolls here. Also people who have never met a Muslim in thier life and have painted their opinion with the broad brush of media and Hollywood, but they are few. I also have noticed the trend of -and I'm going to say it, I couldn't find an alternative word- the trend of enlightened people increasing here. People who have more awareness and are willing to question things and be more curious.

The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity.The Prophet -peace be upon him- actually told the soldiers heading out to jihad (again same disclaimer) "do not kill a child, do not kill an old man, do not cut down trees" (looking at you agent orange).If I believe that what I have is for the betterment of humanity, that it is for all people that one person who believes is better for me than the best of material goods, why would I do anything that makes this religion look bad?Can you imagine me now going to one of the people affected directly or indirectly by the blast an saying something like "have you ever considered Islam?" "Do you seek serenity? Look into Islam." What do you think their response will be?How is this something like this supposed to help?

Farking Canuck:Just out of curiosity: What percentage of muslims are radical?

The only one that matters was 100% radical. Any orginization is only as good as its leader. It is defined by its leader. Mohammed was an evil man doing evil things. No amount of fark love of Islam changes that reality. Osama bin Laden was not some nutjob doing things that are totally out of line with the mainstream. He was an intelligent thoughtful man who studied Mohammed and correctly interpreted what Islam is supposed to look like. He read and studied the Koran and the Hadiths and he got it right I hate to tell you. Islam will always be dangerous because the peace loving Muslims are completely at odds with what Mohammed taught and how he lived. There will always be elements with Islam that truly want to be what Islam wants them to be. Who want to live as Mohammed would want them to live. Those are the people that are dangerous to the rest of us.

Tatsuma:LL316: Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame. Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.

The problem is that nowhere in dog loving philosophy is it ever acceptable to do that, and there is no 'dog loving' philosophy in the first place.

There are certain branches of Islam who openly advocate terrorism against civilians. Is it mainstream Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Americans? Of course not. However, it exists and just closing your eyes, clenching your fists and saying 'no no no no no' is not going to change that.

I agree with this completely. I just don't like lumping them all in together just because they have a few more ugly/embarassing/murderous relatives than the normal family has. Just look at their uncle for proof that those who follow Islam can be totally awesome.

I think it might simply be a matter of wordin. Every rational person is against the extremist militant factions of any religion (Islam or otherwise). So instead of stressing the Islam portion, those who hate terrorism should stress the extremist portion. Wouldn't that stop the stupid debate (Islam sucks, no Islam doesn't suck!) and put it where it needs to be...on the terrorists?

LL316:Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame. Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.

The problem is that nowhere in dog loving philosophy is it ever acceptable to do that, and there is no 'dog loving' philosophy in the first place.

There are certain branches of Islam who openly advocate terrorism against civilians. Is it mainstream Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Americans? Of course not. However, it exists and just closing your eyes, clenching your fists and saying 'no no no no no' is not going to change that.

Tatsuma:miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

Particularly funny when the younger brother once tweeted 'Those who say that Islam is terrorism, don't listen to them'

This is just stupid. Columbine would have happened either way. This would not have happened if the guy had not become a radicalized Muslim who started to listen to Al-Qaeda-style preaching.

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam. They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse. Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Indeed, it was not. It was, however, radical Islam as preached by Wahhabists and their ilk.

Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain. Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better

Magorn:Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Not a bad assessment. Olympians are obsessive by nature. How you gonna get to the games if you don't eat sleep breathe drink your sport?

Tommy Moo:UNC_Samurai: Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it. If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.

Yes, only Islamic extremists plant bombs:

[www.talkingpointsmemo.com image 425x528]

When did I say that? All ideologies that routinely inspire people to commit acts of terrorism must be ruthlessly castigated until their adherents are shamed into ever smaller circles of influence.

Now I WILL agree with you there, but religion is not the sole motivating cause of people doing crazy shiat like this. Violence doesn't need religion, but violent people often find it's a hell of a convenient excuse to add to their self-righteousness.

fireclown:About Islam and turkeys: Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?

In case we have some Muslim Farkers?!Fark has EVERYTHING.I've seen it all here. All professions, all hobbies, all fields of study, all religions and last but not least all sexual orientations; including pre-op and post-ops (insert quagmire image here).

As for your point, yeah, you are right in that turkey is halal. I think the issue is a matter of "imitating" non-believers which is improper.The question then remains of where do you draw the line? The Islamic scholars differ in this, an luckily enough in mainstream Islam you do not have one governing body, not even the Muftis* of Saudi Arabia, so you have the option of listening to different religious viewpoints a making a conscious decision which makes sense to you**, or if they all make sense (or all don't) people usually adopt the viewpoint of the scholar they've felt comfortable with before in terms of how he thinks.So for the imitation thing, a "thou shall not celebrate thanksgiving since it is not OUR holiday" is probably the issue.I've heard some extreme versions where people (usually not scholars) have said you shouldn't even wear the clothes of the "West." Dude, I'm sorry. Do you have any idea how cold it can get?

*clerics who issue fatwa, which is simply a religious decision or call, not "Fatwa on you! And a Fatwa on you!"**I remember hearing one guy who said he heard a fatwa that you have to fast during Ramadan from sunrise to sunset, even I you are in a Scandinavian country in summer. But truth be told I never heard that myself. (Mainstream opinion is that if you are in such a country you fast according to the hours people fast in Mecca, so probably 4:30am-6:45pm)

/sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle

miss diminutive:So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because only Christians, whites and gun owners can be denigrated by the media. It's in their handbook.

Magorn:Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

I think his uncle's description was best. He was a loser, and did what many men in their twenties who are losers do - resorted to violence.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

I'm in no way taking sides with Westboro, but exactly how many people have they blown up?

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

...have you ever seen what happens to someone falsely accused of pedophilia?

...have you ever seen what happens to anyone who dares defend anyone accused of pedophilia?

...have you ever seen what happens to the innocent neighbors of anyone who dares defend anyone accused of pedophilia?

Now replace Islam with pedophilia, and you've got a glimpse. And the vengeance vulturing is even worse when they're right, as the Penn State affair can attest to.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime. They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities. They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.

Darth_Lukecash:Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.

In this case both sides were right. The leftists wanted the terrorists to be white. The people on the right correctly guessed they were moslem.

atomicmask:Fark before the terrorist was caught: "Its not a muslim, it was mostly likely a frat boy tea party right wing nut job!" Stereotyping and assuming the worst of said group despite little evidence they do this sort of stuff.

Fark after the terrorist plot: "So, he doesn't represent islam"

You farkers are full of shiat. THIS is the real face of islam. Islam is a violent, totalitarian movement. There is no peace with islam, unless you are dead, a slave, or submit and convert. Islam is a violent ideology that is no better then national socialism. It should be treated as such, and outlawed in all western nations not as a religion, but as a violent hate cult.

So what about the Muslims that are non violent like the guy in Canada who called the police to notify them that someone they know was planning a terror attack?

That's a complete non-sequitor. The Jewish Diaspora is primarily in First-world nations, along with the world's top science and research institutions. Most of the 1.6 billion you refer to are not.

Oh please. "First World" is supposed to refer to Cold War alignment, but I assume you mean that somehow the 1.6 billion live in "poor" countries. Fine. Then why do the largest countries of the 1.6 billion, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, spend far less on research and development than countries with similar GDP per capita and literacy levels, like Brazil or Chile or China?

And if you think there's something intrinsically anti-intellectual about Islam as a faith, you know literally nothing about the history of science.

Not as a faith, everyone who's read history knows that Islamic cultures dominated astronomy, mathematics, medicine, and, well, history from the 8th to the 13th century. But something happened, and Islamic science basically has slept for the last 800 years. Sucks to be in last place. Christianity was once, but has recently been doing just fine.

Exactly. Leadership.

There is no Pope or supreme authority in Islam.

Nor is there for Christianity, nor Judaism.

There are dozens of major schools and branches of Islamic ideology. Any leader can issue a hadith that will either be accepted by followers or ignored by others.

Clearly the Islamic leadership, in aggregate, has failed its adherents by failing to foster education and tolerance.

The only difference I can see between "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an" and "Biology For Christian Schools" is that one is distributed by a theocratic government and the other one merely wants to be and never will be.

FTFY. A few nuts in Texas != government of millions of citizens.

That's why I don't discriminate against Muslims, but I do against Theocrats.

Fine. But only a fool would deny that theocracy is far more accepted and desired in today's Muslims than any other faith. Scale matters.

mangeybear:Hickory-smoked: The point is we should ask if the potential for militancy has more to do with the basic tenets of a religion, or current global politics. I think the latter is more likely, and handwringing about Muslims and racially profiling them isn't likely to help that.

I'm guessing you think the tenets have nothing to do with the potential for militancy?

No more so than that of other religions.

I also guess that it doesn't alarm you that the world's 1.6 billion Muslims have produced only two Nobel laureates in chemistry and physics; the worlds Jews, one hundred times less numerous, have produced 79.

That's a complete non-sequitor. The Jewish Diaspora is primarily in First-world nations, along with the world's top science and research institutions. Most of the 1.6 billion you refer to are not. And if you think there's something intrinsically anti-intellectual about Islam as a faith, you know literally nothing about the history of science.

Some of us think that the religious faith itself, or at least it's leadership, might have a bearing on behavior.

Exactly. Leadership.

There is no Pope or supreme authority in Islam. There are dozens of major schools and branches of Islamic ideology. Any leader can issue a hadith that will either be accepted by followers or ignored by others.

According to the Economist magazine, the Saudi government supports books for Islamic schools such as "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an: The Facts That Can't Be Denied By Science" suggesting an inherent conflict between belief and reason.

I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.

The only difference I can see between "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an" and "Biology For Christian Schools" is that one is distributed by a theocratic government and the other one merely wants to be.

That's why I don't discriminate against Muslims, but I do against Theocrats.

bingo the psych-o:rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.

Actually there are a fair number of people (myself included) that do see Phelps as being representative of what's wrong with Christians and Christianity, just as this kid is representative of what's is wrong with Islam and its practitioners.

To be fair, Pat Robertson would be a better example of what's wrong with Christianity than Fred "Professional Plaintiff" Phelps.

Actually there are a fair number of people (myself included) that do see Phelps as being representative of what's wrong with Christians and Christianity, just as this kid is representative of what's is wrong with Islam and its practitioners.

You see, just because more terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims than Christians, that magically makes all Muslims terrorists regardless of all the good they do like thwarting future terror attacks in Canada.

give me doughnuts:MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: No, it means you are a freaking moran who seemingly thinks there are more American males between 18-24 than there are Muslims on the planet.Your mother must be very ashamed.

No, what I'm saying is if you look at crime in the US - hate crime, violent crime, terrorism, etc. - you won't find muslims dominating the brackets, you will find 18-24 males. This is a pretty strong indicator that 18-24 males are violent idiots.

And you sound awfully defensive, I wish you well in your battle with adolescence.

ohdoublereally:MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse. It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males

You're not really good at counting, are you?

Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24? Whatever. You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet. This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet. Your mother must be very proud.

And you're like a lot of people with their head deep in the sand.

Nah, the 18-24 male demographic is basically responsible for every evil in the world. It's carried a thousand different banners, but it's always the same stupid young male trying to figure out what it means to be a man, and failing miserably.

walkingtall:Resident Muslim: I've actually found Fark to be well-knowledged about Islam, with many non-Muslims (atheists, agnostics, Christians and Jews etc) dispelling many myths, and I personally thank them or that.I know there are trolls here.

Im sorry but I respectfully disagree with you. I have studied Mohammed, the Koran and the Hadiths extensively and your cherry picking of a couple verses is just as bad as a Christian cherry picking verses from the Bible to make a point. The Koran, Hadiths and history all come together to provide context to what the texts mean. I do not speak Arabic so my views are not given any weight by serious scholars of Islam of course but the translations, in the real world, give a pretty good insight into what Islam is and what it wants to be. Mohammed is the highest prophet of Allah and as such what he says and what he did goes.

I'm not sure what it is you are respectfully disagreeing with.I'm also not sure when you say cherry-picking, it would imply avoiding other cherries. :)Some points you might find interesting:- Mohammed was chastised in the Quran by God (at least once that I can recall now) for trying to convert a noble and rich person and ignoring a blind pious man (my words/understanding)- a translation (and as such is based on a person's understanding): Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. [3:144]

So unless you were trying to prove how unguarded I am against trollishness...:)

miss diminutive:Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.

Well, some people shoot up schools. Some people shoot up their families. "If I can't be happy, no one can, and I'm going to make a big splash going out."

corronchilejano:I'm sorry but how is a casserole a weapon of mass destruction?

Because the US is reactionary and paranoid.

AngryJailhouseFistfark:It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

Beyond that, the Muslim Doesn't Matter.

Indeed.

As far as I know, the FBI is concluding more and more that yes, the brothers acted alone. Merely being inspired by some radical websites online does not make them agents of some super secret terrorist cell or anything like that.

Personally I still think identity issues played a role in this (where the older brother in particular is concerned) and it would provide some reasoning for him to decide to look into becoming "stricter" about Islam. If he feels alienated in the US and then feels alienated among "Chechens" too (which is entirely possible considering his age and age at immigration and all that) he may be thinking, well, I'm gonna prove myself as "fighting for the cause" however ineptly.

I've got to admit, I'm not a very good person. When various bits of news occur I get the knee-jerk response, "Damn all (insert faith/race/etc.) to hell".And later on I remember all the very good people I know, who are Muslim. Or Catholics. Or Germans. Including some very good friends. And I feel ashamed and wonder why the hell I can't let my reasoning- which I'm often overly proud of- override the tribal group-think, or rather group-not-thinking, that I mock at in countless examples in world history.To put it bluntly, I'm a dumbass.

thunderbird8804:LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?

Well that makes it okay then!

Because no matter how many times you tell people, people will associate the scumbags like the one in Boston to all Muslims in general.

Yes, radical Islam is bad but so is radical Christianity, radical Judaism, etc.

But yet we don't associate all Christians with abortion clinic bombers and we don't actively try to prevent a church from being built.

If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?

jso2897:[...] "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.

bluefox3681:But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Lifted from an old Ayn Rand quote: "The racist is a "barnyard collectivist" - he possesses a mentality that is just capable of distinguishing between different breeds of animals, but not between individual human beings". (or something pretty close to that) And, yes, I know Rand was a loon - but even a broken clock etc., etc.

Draskuul:Personally I was hoping from the start it was Islam, but not as anything against Islam. I just didn't want to have the media create yet another new bogeyman under the bed.

I thought it was Muslim extremists at the start, though the tea party idea made some sense at the time.

backing up a bit...as a Catholic, I disagree with some people on death penalty (we shouldn't have such a thing), and others on abortion (fetal viability definition is so arbitrary, why not leave infants to die also? they are parasitic, so why only embrace one vile practice?).

the child abuse issue leaves a black mark on us all, as Catholics. I didn't abuse any kids, but you wonder what you would have done, had you known. it is a strain that won't disappear, and why should people think otherwise?

I think this radical terrorism may be a similar black mark on all of Islam. it's as much of the common knowledge of Islam as anything else anyone knows about Islam, just as any Catholic thing here is about child rape. the stain does not go away so easily.

you prove it every day, I guess. there is no easy way to take off the black mark. just prove it every day.

Interestingly, the percentages of attacks relative to populations are not too totally different. For right-wingers, the attack percentage is 0000083% of population, vs. Muslim attack percentage of 000017.6% of population.

Right-wingers not quite as nasty as Islamists, statistically, in the number of douchebags (there's an extra zero for right-wingers,right thar in the calculations), but I'm comforted to see all the zeros in front of each percentage.

flondrix:mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.

What exactly is "mainstream Christianity"? There may have been a time when "mainstream" Christianity in the USA was something that didn't conflict with the empirical sciences, didn't affect your life much from Monday through Saturday, had no issues with church-state separation, and wasn't taken very seriously even by many of its ostensible members, but that is not the case now. Whether the religious right are a numerical majority of Christians or not, they are the ones that "count" as far as trashing our educational system and controlling one of our country's two political parties. Similarly, it is the violent Muslims who "count" irregardless of how many laid back, whishy-washy Muslims may also exist.

I find it funny that when it comes to religion, the minority represents the majority and yet when it comes to virtually anything else, especially race, any sort of sample group even the majority does not represent the whole. Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.

Tatsuma:jso2897: Those "studies" are all about terrorists who make it to the West to do their deeds - a tiny fraction of terrorists as a whole. Of course those terrorists have money and skills - they couldn't operate outside the third world if they didn't. They represent a tiny fraction of radical Islam.

The same is true in Pakistan and Afghanistan as well.

This is not an old concept, I believe Aristotle himself said that only a wealthy land-owning man could be a philosopher because he's the only one who has time to sit and think in the first place.

Well, I'll grant you the obvious - a bloody-minded lunatic with money is more dangerous than one without it.And we can't count on affluence to fix everything wrong with the human soul either - if we could, Paris Hilton and Kim Kardassian would be great spiritual and philosophical leaders, and Donald Trump a great statesman.

Bondith:Resident Muslim: The question then remains of where do you draw the line? The Islamic scholars differ in this, an luckily enough in mainstream Islam you do not have one governing body, not even the Muftis* of Saudi Arabia, so you have the option of listening to different religious viewpoints a making a conscious decision which makes sense to you**, or if they all make sense (or all don't) people usually adopt the viewpoint of the scholar they've felt comfortable with before in terms of how he thinks.

So you're encouraged to engage your brain and do some common-sense thinking? I may have to revise my previous statement.

First of all, hats off for having an open mind and being open to differing viewpoints.

I really believe that Islam is based on common sense. Based on logic. Questioning your faith is a good thing when you find out that you are getting answers.

I know that this is Fark, and people are already typing invisible-sky-wizard as I type, that religion is NOT common sense.However when you see all the SCIENTIFIC thing that had to come together for life to exist on this planet it is nothing but miraculous, mind-blowing if you will. Watch the discovery channel or any science channel and chances are that in any 24 hour period you'd hear the phrase "and if it wasn't for ____ life wouldn't be able to exist on earth" (granted, maybe "life as we know it, but I'll rephrase that to YOU wouldn't exist on earth).Examples:-oxygen being heavier than other gases so we can breathe-UV/sunbursts getting deflected from earth or absorbed-meteors burning up in the atmosphere-water being the only thing that expands when it freezes, (I think) therefore it floats and protects the animals underneath thereby sustaining life

I know there are many people who scoff at 'intelligent design' but at what point do you go "hmm, this is kinda fishy..."

I'm sure any more knowledgable resident scientist/doctor on Fark can give even more examples whether or not they are religious.

/ps if you think old wisdom/science in the pyramids freaky, google science + Quran//sorry for the double posts, on mobile (and still typing out a bunch of stuff, so sorry)///slash my heart

bluefox3681:Hickory-smoked: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam? Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists. However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.

Oh please. We don't have to try and find an equivalent evil in every culture as if that makes it all ok and equal. 7% of American muslims think that suicide bombings are justified.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/muslim-american-moderate-vi ew -survey_n_942555.html

Why don't we have more hand wringing about the 200,000 muslims in this country that are probably radicalized?

Personally, I wonder if phrased the same way there wouldn't be 7% of Christians who give similar answers if they thought Christianity was being attacked... but that wasn't my point. The point is we should ask if the potential for militancy has more to do with the basic tenets of a religion, or current global politics. I think the latter is more likely, and handwringing about Muslims and racially profiling them isn't likely to help that.

Well, we could try and export democracy and the idea of secular self-rule, but it turns out, that's part of the reason radicalization happens. And even if that does take hold, the people tend to elect people friendly with hardliners.

We could try armed occupation, but let's not. It has been a rough decade for that.

We could try overthrowing leadership and replacing them with who we think will be dedicated to governance, as opposed to rule - but again, this has historically not worked out awesomely for all involved.

We could leave them alone, but that's a bit callous and doesn't really solve the problem for people currently living there.

So you see, the dilemma is something of an oscillation among those positions, and no one of them has borne any better fruit than the previous attempt(s). You can see why there's sudden interest in not "solving the underlying problem" and only dealing with its consequences.

In America, all we can really do is fight extremism where we see it. When we start thinking outside our borders is when shiat goes to fark at light speed.

This - "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.

Any group, that's sort of my point. Republicans, Democrats, Iberia Airline pilots, anyone who can identify a solid "us" and "them" and knows in their heart that WE are right, and THEY are wrong, and every single thing they see just gets their blood boiling about how bad THEY are. It doesn't USUALLY escalate to violence, normally it manifests itself in various derp and whargarbl, but now and then someone, probably someone about half crazy to begin with, gets the idea to build a bomb, or shoot up a place, or whatever.

and the list goes on and on and on. It's a myth that getting them out of poverty, and giving them access to comfortable lifestyles and education will curb terrorism. The answer lies elsewhere.

By the way in Canada yesterday they arrested two Al Qaeda members for planning a terrorist attack. One of them was once again an engineer with many many diplomas

Those "studies" are all about terrorists who make it to the West to do their deeds - a tiny fraction of terrorists as a whole. Of course those terrorists have money and skills - they couldn't operate outside the third world if they didn't. They represent a tiny fraction of radical Islam.

Tatsuma:EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.

Except that the overwhelming majority of terrorists come from upper-middle-class or better backgrounds, with at the very least a college education.

Yeah, the easier their lives are and the more educated they are, the more Muslims are likely to embrace radical Islam and support terrorism. So your cultural imperialism is not going to work for shiat in that situation

Well, they are certainly more likely to be in a position to do something about it. What they are more likely to "embrace" is pure assumption on your part.

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.

Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).

Well a good start would be to distance yourself from all extremists instead of carrying water for them.Also calling out MSNBC, salon.com and any other organization that makes excuses or buries their head in the sand.

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it. If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam. They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse. Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.

So by quoting me you're asserting that these brothers in fact would be law abiding angels if not for Islam. Ah, then twisting it to make your argument by confining it to radical Islam. Congratulations on moving the goal posts. I'm not completely disagreeing with your revision. Just read the headline again. Tell me your head hasn't been hurting when you find that all aspects of Islam are subject to scrutiny because of the radical faction. I'm not Muslim but I can't bring myself to hate all Muslims for any reason. Yes, even after last week.

My point is that these guys in particular already hated me. That's the core of this. They later found flawed reasoning and justification of violence through radical Islam - a natural partnership based on their heritage, and mostly unfortunate based on the level of destructive knowledge available within that faction. Would you also assert that they couldn't/wouldn't have looked elsewhere, such as another religion or nationalistic fanaticism? There's truly no way of knowing, but I'm comfortable believing these guys were bad apples to begin with.

Tatsuma:and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant

It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

It was either going to be mental illness or fanatical religion. Granted, the latter isn't there without the former.No mentally sound person would stay in the town and plan for a violent death, much less do a bombing against random people.

"But... but what about Christians!"

fark them, too. Also the Jews and Hindus and anyone else eager to throw away the world for their idol.

Tatsuma:American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.

I love you Tat but on this you are wrong. You have taken on the sanitized American idea of what Islam is. While it sounds reasonable to not paint an entire 1 billion people with the same brush what Islam is always comes back to its roots. You cant change what Islam is. Mohammed was what he was. He said and did what he did. As long as the entire religion is based on the idea that one man speaks for god and only that man speaks for god then you are forced to look to that man and how he lived for what is the heart of god.

I'm puzzled as to why the "Why did they do this?" question deserves any attention whatsoever. Doesn't acknowledging the motive give these murderers the validation that they originally sought? Murderers should be punished for what they did without any consideration for why they did it.

If understanding what motivated these murderers brought us a centimeter closer to preventing this in the future, then it would be worth debating, but I am certain that it doesn't. I firmly believe that the discussion encourages another attack. The discussion about the spectrum of tolerance and intolerance of religion is now in the limelight and that means that the act of mass murder is effectively classified as terror.

This is like a traffic jam on a highway in the opposite direction of a wreck. Why doesn't everyone realize that if we stopped rubber necking, the traffic would flow without impediment? Just like the traffic accident, we should let the authorities and justice system sort this out. Every minute that Anderson Cooper et al. spends on this topic is a victory for the shallow cause of murderers.

Darth_Lukecash:Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.

I_Am_Weasel:mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime. They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities. They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.

Tbh i find its more the new converts with an addictive personality. The same people that need to avoid drugs or get hooked hard. They seem like bloody fanatics and have had a few friends become almost intolerable.But yeah even the balanced ones want to talk about the great new thing in their life that you need to hear about.

if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, and therefore giving cover and protection to Radical Islamists, realize just how much Muslims everywhere around the world suffer under the hand of those Islamists? Whether it's the Talibans in Afghanistan poisoning schoolgirls, the Vice Police in Saudia Arabia beating a man and woman to death for speaking in a super-market or Muslim Brotherhood thugs forcing 'virginity tests' on women protesting in front of Parliament, the first victims of Islamic fundamentalism are other Muslims.

There is a difference between Mainstream Islam and Radical Islam, but the more we pretend that there is not, the easier it is for the Radicals to come over and poison the minds of Muslims in America itself and leading to situations like it did with these two brothers. They are already well advanced in Europe, let's not let it happen in America.

American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Diogenes:miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

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When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree. Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc. But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.

Sadly, the people who think that "we are at war with Islam" are too ignorant to understand your fancy book-learnin' words. In fact, just by typing them, you're automatically the enemy.

Then one frightful post Boston bombing mornAnti-Christians came to sayRudolph with your Christian terrorismWon't you falsely equate to Islam?

Then all those haters loved himAnd they shouted out with gleeEric Rudolph, you will go down as Christianity's greatest monster!

Wouldn't Jim Jones be a better (worse?) Christian monster?

Jim Jones is a complicated case. Maybe he was a Christian once? It became a mask for utopian socialism, which was itself just a mask for his own cult of personality. A "true believer" in Christianity he was not.

Tatsuma:jso2897: And that would be stupid. We should only burn Korans, like sensible people.

We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.

I mean in this thread I've already learned that: really right-wing xians are the real terrorists, really environment nutcases are the real terrorists and really Islamic terrorism does not really exist.

Those are some major major delusions going on

If we really MUST get serious about this, yes, it is true. While a real asshole can turn any ideology or belief system into an excuse for mayhem, the Cult of Kali, for example, probably lends itself to that purpose better than Zen Buddhism does.But at the same point, I can't help but be amused at the solemn lecturing that some people engage in on this subject - as if they were privy to some special information that the rest of us "naive" folks are somehow unaware of. Not everybody processes information the same, and not everybody turns every real or potential threat into an excuse for paranoia and/or bigotry.

Tatsuma:We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.

Who is saying the radical Islam isn't a problem? How many NATO countries are currently embroiled in Afghanistan against an enemy who opposes democracy, educating women and almost anything to do with modern civilization?

The issue isn't whether radical Islam (or radical anything) is a threat, it's how to proportionally respond to that threat. Radical elements of any group, religion or ideology are dangerous specifically because they are more rigid in their world view, are more likely to place the ends far above the means and view those they who feel aren't "true believers" as below contempt and essentially expendable.

DreamSnipers:For all they knew there could have been a couple of groups of Muslims there to cheer in some friends or family in the crowd. Bombs don't select who dies on the basis of religion.

It is likely that they either were linked with Al-Qaeda members in 2012 when the older brother spent some time in Dagestan, and they certainly were connected to them online through propaganda and such.

4 out of 5 Al Qaeda victims are Muslims. Yes, even including the thousands who died at the World Trade Center.

In fact by on killing non-Muslims they went against the grain of their organization.

FTA: Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

Maybe someone should tell them that most Americans never had a problem with Islam, up to the point they started coming to the U.S. and attacking our citizens. Even when they were attacking our military outside our country's borders, most Americans didn't have too much of a problem with Islam.

Want to defend and improve Islam... STOP ATTACKING AMERICAN CIVILIANS!

Now that they did their 'defense' how is Islam safer? A religion with a billion odd followers needs bombs set off in crowds or it will disappear? For all they knew there could have been a couple of groups of Muslims there to cheer in some friends or family in the crowd. Bombs don't select who dies on the basis of religion.Their religion and humanity would have been better off if one of their bombs had detonated while they were making it.

Any religion which believes it is the One True Way (tm) is going to have conflict with another religion that believes it is the One True Way (tm). Especially so when those religions are proselytizing religions.

Nothing new here.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -- Seneca

HAMMERTOE:All very, very good points. Of course, what you eventually realize, once your span of conceptualization becomes sufficiently encompassing, is that "Us vs. Them. (and they are evi-i-i-i-i-l-l-l-l-l-!...)" is part and parcel of enabling top-heavy, self-serving, over-spending, responsibility-shirking, heavy-handed national governments, and ours is a prime example.

Oh absolutely! That kind of thinking most certainly can manifest itself on a national level, within any organization or among a couple of like-minded people. The only reason the public didn't object in larger numbers to the Iraq was was because, at the time, the "us vs. them" mentality was in full force. We were us, and they were them. Fark them! Whargarbl, etc.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

EXCUSE ME, Can you point out Christian countries where women are prohibited from driving, people get executed BY THE GOVERNMENT for "insulting Christians" , getting killed for being gay BY THE GOVERNMENT, etc.?

ALL Islamic ruled countries ARE intolerant shiatholes. ALL. Including your precious Turkey. And you Farktards INSIST on making excuses like the above. BULLSHIAT.

All this happy horseshiat about "the muslims I know are loving, tolerant people". Really? How come I don't see these people, if they exist, on TV denouncing radical muslims? How come I never see them at 4th of July parades, little league, fire companies, etc.? All I EVER hear from them after an attack is "please don't hurt us!" And their women walking around covered in sheets. That's goofy as hell. You farktards would be screaming bloody murder if some "Christian Sect" was doing the same. You'd prolly be organizing "rescue squads" to liberate the poor oppressed women from their cruel masters....

NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

They are not here to assimulate. They believe they are superior to us, we are weak, and here in the US they are going to do what they've done everywhere else: Keep themselves separate, build up their numbers, and dominate any area they populate. Impose their values on that area. Like Britain. Like France. Like Thailand. Like Malaysia.....

The federal government did a nice job taming the Mormons. They need to do the same to the Muslims.

IronMyno:Robert1966: IronMyno: Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Consider yourself Favorited. And great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.

This narrative won't work if he was actually involved in the murders in Waltham in 2011, to which he is now being tentatively linked. I don't know how much that is wishful thinking on the part of the authorities. It seems to me that your version is more likely than someone brutally killing three people and then, two years later, doing something much less personal like a bombing.

- I Favorited Magorn for the cool headed and lack of mindless hate in the post. Even if the narrative falls through, this will not change.

Magorn:Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain. Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better

Except that he didn't pick up Islam in Chechnya. First of all, he became radicalized in America, and if you look at his youtube feed (and the twitter of his brother) they were very keen on Wahhabist preachers from Saudi Arabia. Second of all, where he went to train for this in 2012 for six months was in Dagestan, which is the Caucasus Wahhabist central.

And by the way, out of Dagestan in the 90s the Wahhabists did move on to Chechnya in order to form cells and change the country as well.

Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame. Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.

His uncle's reaction is about what mine would be if someone tried to include me in their nutjobbery.

Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.

nekom:mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

The difference between radical violent Christians and radical violent Islamists is simple. If a person reads the New Testament and adheres strictly to the teachings of Jesus then they would soon come to the conclusion that they are pacifist and probably socialist and defenders of tolerance, love, and inclusion. If a person reads the teachings of Mohammed and follows them strictly then they would soon come to the conclusion that it is a doctrine of violence and intolerance.

And guys stop saying that they were converts to Islam. They were not. They came from non-religious backgrounds but they were still Muslims and identified as such. It's just that they became more religious in the recent years. A convert to Islam would be someone who was born Hindu or non-Religious or a Buddhist and then decided to embrace Islam, not a bunch of guys who were born in Chechnya and went to Islamic schools when they were young.

1. Sounds like the older brother was an arrogant jerkwad before he got religion, and after he got religion, just like usually happens. Only difference is afterwards he pretends he's on a Mission from God.

(Worst. Blues Brothers. Sequel. Ever.)

2. With little brother a.) claiming he was led by his big brother, and b.) being a photogenic skinny young guy with lots of curly brown hair who's c.) lying wounded in a hospital bed and d.) on his way to life in prison at least and a Federal death sentence at most, I bet the flood of letters from the usual horde of lonely batshiat-crazy desperate 40ish single women who think they can "save" him through the power of troooo luuuuurve has already started.

So what's the over/under on a prison marriage? I'm thinking the first anniversary, plus or minus a week or two.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

The problem is that Islam wasn't just the channel that these hateful idiots used to outlet their insanity. Islam amplified their hatred and insanity.

Magorn:Let me just say this as vaguely as possible. If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true, then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that. While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Consider yourself Favorited. And great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.

FlashHarry://just that some of the most brutal, heinous crimes in the past 20 years, from 9/11 to so-called "honor killings," have been committed in its name

I don't disagree. But just for one second pretending people didn't invest their values in (their interpretation of) religious rules, some people, probably the same amount that we've been seeing lately, would still find a way to justify horrible actions. Locally, antigovernment militias and their outcasts have been pretty quiet, but we'll hear from them again.

Diogenes:Yes, terror is terror. But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected? Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

Whether they were poor representatives depends upon how representative they were.They were poor at public relations. Or were they?

That's what makes it seem so clear the Boston bombers acted alone. If they'd been hooked up with Al Qaeda, the FBI would have been listening in on all their conference calls, and offering to provide them the bombs.

fireclown:About Islam and turkeys: Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?

I can't really speak for Islam, but I once attended a lecture about Jews celebrating Thanksgiving - the central question is "Is Thanksgiving a religious holiday?" If so, there may be a problem with observing another religion's holiday (the chief method of "observing" this particular holiday being the bird and cranberries and stuffing and gravy and pumpkin pie and hot cocoa and pecan pie and *drool*

// spoiler alert: the lecture ended with "it's not really a religious holiday, but if being thankful on the 4th Thursday of November makes you uncomfortable, skip the turkey dinner"

miss diminutive:Magorn: While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.

He sorta did that by going on a visit to the ancestral homeland (note he never actually LIVED in Chechnya, like many ethnic Chechens he actually lived in Dagestan-where Stalin more or less transported the whole country as punishment for an earlier rebellion). Once there, he saw the devastation of a VERY nasty 7 year war that the Russians fought with thier usual grim efficency and disregard for civillian casualties, and sort latched on to "The cause" as his new purpose. It's not unlike what happened to many Americans of Irish extraction who visited Ireland during "the troubles" and came back ranting about "the Cause" and supporting Sinn Fein's fundraising efforts (looking at YOU here Rep. Peter King)

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message." The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror. But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected? Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging

mbillips:"Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?

Well, we've come full circle. Now that we're actually looking at what caused stuff, and how to prevent it, the gun nuts just look silly when they say "Oh, I'm sure it's the videogames that made Adam Lamza crazy." Just like they would if they said "Y'know, I'm sure gay marriage had something to do with pushing Tamerlan Tsarnaev off the deep end."

Nana's Vibrator:That settles it. If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist. The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it. If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

miss diminutive:So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

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When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree. Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc. But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.

mamoru:Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Yeah, as much as I like to browbeat Christianity about the Catholic Church being a kleptocratic corporation and Protestant evangelicals trying to turn the clock back 100 years in the southeast and inspire theocratic feudalism in parts of Africa, not every Christian is contributing to the obstruction of societal progress. I'm totally cool with Quakers.

Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.