It's spring, so hopefully the thaw has found you and opened your fields for competition. This summer we will see the next installments of Armageddon and Apocalypse, the longest-running and second-longest-running Nerf wars in the community. Can you believe that Armageddon is turning 17 this year? Insane.

The NerfHaven staff hosted its first formal/informal IRC chat last night. Twenty-two members turned out to discuss the finer points of war hosting, gametypes, darts, and NerfHaven lore. Stay tuned for future chats. Big thanks to everyone who made it out for the last one.

Do you feel superstock-style blasters and ammo are viable in an NIC war, where many people are using homemade darts and blasters? Would you be more or less likely to attend an NIC war that had a few superstock rounds mixed into it?

Discussion Topic:
Do you feel superstock-style blasters and ammo are viable in an NIC war, where many people are using homemade darts and blasters? Would you be more or less likely to attend an NIC war that had a few superstock rounds mixed into it?

I think the biggest factor is how much cover is available. At Armageddon there are buildings, playground equipment and those free-standing walls. All that cover makes it easier to get close enough to hit a target with a stock or superstock blaster. At Apoc there's less cover, and it's much more challenging to hit anything with a flywheel gun, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. Most wars seem to fall somewhere in between.

Do you feel superstock-style blasters and ammo are viable in an NIC war, where many people are using homemade darts and blasters? Would you be more or less likely to attend an NIC war that had a few superstock rounds mixed into it?

Super-stock blasters and ammo are definitely viable, only if you're willing to work to make it so. When we had people play in one of the opens fields we had with stock blasters, their best defense was agility. Superstock is very much a run-and-gun when put up against homemade caliber, hoppered blasters. As far as superstock being mixed in, I wouldn't mind a round or two. When we tried out awfuls rounds for the first time, it was much more enjoyable than I'd thought. However, as long as superstock doesn't dominate what we do, or what kind of crowd a war draws in, I don't mind. The minute the majority of people at a war have superstock blasters for an NIC war, is when I'd probably not feel comfortable using my baster against them.

^ Cover type definitely makes or breaks it. Some NJ wars are hosted at a site (Axel Ave) with an elementary school and light woods out front. While we usually just run NIC/DIY rounds in the area of trees, last year at "Gnomelessfest" we tried a few rounds of megas/pistols/awfuls/superstock mix around the school and it was a hit. Even though there were only like 2 portable classrooms and some dumpsters/posts/walls for cover, it was intense and players loved it.

Due to the introduction of newer dart styles like USCs, ACCs, Xplorer V*s and the whatnot, superstock is no longer limited to 120/150 FPS by physics. These generations of darts fly straight and stable at high velocities, are capable of being used at 200, 250, 300 FPS. In the future, I see superstock finally advancing into more of a gray zone between its current limits and NIC/DIY, Aeromech dubbed this "uberstock". Mag-fed springer homemades, semi-auto air, and flywheels with ever more powerful motors/batteries should replace the current dynamic.

120/150 FPS will always be a thing due to HvZ and more casual groups, but I foresee a split in the superstock community by those who wish to press on, and those who either can't or want to keep the status quo. In the meantime, China darts will keep improving, so innovation will come regardless. If future darts with NIC/DIY level performance are not picked up by superstock, they will be picked up by NIC/DIY and compete with or gradually displace slugs. Between buying 1,000 USCs for $33 shipped or making 1,000 #6 slugs, I'd much rather get the USCs.

So, I think superstock will come to or near NIC/DIY level, whether it be via the darts or the blasters. When thinking in future terms, superstock blasters should be competitive with NIC/DIY ones and players will have no problem mixing. When you only think about how things are today, of course there are challenges and limited utility of superstock blasters in NIC/DIY wars. It doesn't need to be that way, but innovation is not going to come to superstock quickly. Flywheels are entrenched, players are still using voberries and FVJs, people are still playing under obsolete assumptions about what their gear is capable of. It will take a long time to see this evolution through.

or what kind of crowd a war draws in, I don't mind. The minute the majority of people at a war have superstock blasters for an NIC war, is when I'd probably not feel comfortable using my baster against them.

And this is the kind of attitude that is going to keep us "casuals" away from your NIC wars. There is already a division between NIC and Superstock so you guys can keep to yourself. I'm gonna keep having fun playing in public parks with blasters I don't have to worry about pelting pedestrians with.

And this is the kind of attitude that is going to keep us "casuals" away from your NIC wars. There is already a division between NIC and Superstock so you guys can keep to yourself. I'm gonna keep having fun playing in public parks with blasters I don't have to worry about pelting pedestrians with.

I can't know for sure what Spud's intent was, but for me the focus in what you quoted was " I'd probably not feel comfortable using my baster against them" i.e. he would worry about using his blaster when he is likely to be getting rushed frequently by nerfers using blaster with significantly shorter range. Therefore, I see this as more concern than elite-ism. Which is a concern that I think others using say a big blast or homemade springer share.

Now his previous sentence is a little elite-ism-ish. But again I think the point is that if there's a lot of people come to play with superstock blasters while he and a few others have only high-velocity blasters...then that's going to swing it the other way to a few rounds of NIC with a bunch of superstock.

There's nothing wrong with that setup, any more than there is mostly NIC/some superstock. Each war should have a mix of rounds that are enjoyable to everyone. It's up to the host to give the attendees what they want. Unfortunately that may mean not playing the host's favorite game, but even more unfortunate is if someone has to sit out for a round/multiple rounds because they don't have the required gear (nothing that shoots 100'+, nothing that shoots under 150FPS, only one 12rd mag, etc). How do we make sure that doesn't happen?

One may say that this is alleviated by simply playing superstock, because stock/lightly modified blasters currently sold in stores are competitive. But personally I felt intimidated playing superstock with anything less than 6 18rd stick mags and some sort of method for carrying all of those. Just as I imagine other people are intimidated by +bows.

Edited by jwasko, 22 April 2016 - 02:55 PM.

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-Jwasko, STILL Sole Surviving member of Steel City Nerf and Sober Sister of the Sex DwarvesWe NERF ON all day, and FUCK OFF all night

And this is the kind of attitude that is going to keep us "casuals" away from your NIC wars. There is already a division between NIC and Superstock so you guys can keep to yourself. I'm gonna keep having fun playing in public parks with blasters I don't have to worry about pelting pedestrians with.

I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying and getting really defensive for no reason. I wouldn't want to be the only person with a pump action hoppered homemade at a war where everyone else is using mag-fed guns, and I don't think there's anything elitist about that. It would just be weird and out of place. I think when DX said 'more casual groups' he was referring to groups where some people might be using bone stock blasters, and there's a mix of of modded and unmodded blasters like you usually see in HvZ groups. Maybe you read that as us calling superstock 'filthy casuals' but that's not how it was intended. DX does a fair amount of superstock nerfing as well, it's not like he's shitting on that whole style of playing.

I was quoting spud. And after reading Jwasko's post I didn't make the connection of a fear or shooting players point blank. My response to this is if someone goes out of their way to look up a NIC game they better know what they are in for.

And this is the kind of attitude that is going to keep us "casuals" away from your NIC wars. There is already a division between NIC and Superstock so you guys can keep to yourself. I'm gonna keep having fun playing in public parks with blasters I don't have to worry about pelting pedestrians with.

Yeah, you were missunderstanding me a bit, and that's okay. That was totally my fault and did not intend to illicit that response. Honestly I felt that NIC powered blasters could be a little overpowering if I was playing with a lot of people running superstock blasters. As others have said, superstock definitely wins in rate of fire, but when you go to an NIC war, you'd expect the power coming out of a homemade or any other NIC blaster. If a bunch of people came to a SE war with superstock blasters because they are fans of our wars/people and want to go, no matter what type of play style we are running that day (NIC, superstock, etc), I wouldn't want to alienate people or have them feel burdensome.

That's what is difficult about the rise of Superstock with NIC, is that as long as its nerf, some people would just assume as long as its a nerf war, they'll be fine. Which may or may not be the case. Again, sorry for the confusion. Not trying to create any sort of animosity that isn't there.

I got a legit hit on someone with a bone stock LOTR uruk-hai bow, if you believe you can make it happen.

for honest though people that only use those blasters play way different than I do, and to it surprisingly well most of the time. mixed wars let team based games be extremely weird and fun and unpredictable that I love, seeing someone slip in and just dump darts onto some dude makes me smile every time.

If a bunch of people came to a SE war with superstock blasters because they are fans of our wars/people and want to go, no matter what type of play style we are running that day (NIC, superstock, etc), I wouldn't want to alienate people or have them feel burdensome.

If you don't want this to be an issue make it clearly stated what the fps limits are and possibly cater to your playerbase. I don't know what the SE wars are like but if the vast majority of players show up with superstockers you may be trying to push the wrong game. I host the games for the Western Indiana Nerf club and I choose superstock and clearly advertise a fps limit of 150. If several of my players wanted a no fps limit war with homemades I would consider a war like that. It's up to the admin to not alienate their playerbase.

Dude, he's not alienating his players. Believe it or not, there are people who actually want to play NIC style nerf. I don't know where you're getting this impression that we're all jack booted nazis trampling on the hopes and dreams of innocent superstock players. Every major NIC nerf community I am aware of has superstock events, or superstock rounds at their wars, or lots of players using superstock/stock blasters at their NIC events without any issues. The southeast in particular has regular monthly superstock wars.

No one is alienating anyone, in fact if anything this community brings people in to NIC. As a kid I can't do too many hobbies. As I was bored one day I started watching YouTube scrolling through my suggested videos... There was a nerf mod and I thought to myself "Wow this is so cool, I can't believe this is a thing". Two days later me and my dad go to target for two rapidstrikes. At this point I was only into painting them and I wasn't skilled enough to mod yet. But me and my dad painted them and he showed me how. It may not seem like much but my parents are divorced and I never really hang out with my dad, nerf brought us together. And this isn't the end. I decided to go to my first war after modding some of my own guns. But I didn't know what NIC meant and there is almost no wars where I live so that was my only choice. I waited for three months for that war and it was the best experience I could've had. Everyone there had over powered blasters compared to me. Me and my friend shot them around just to get used to them for a few minutes. During the rounds I barely got someone but that didn't change anything the people there were so nice lent me a awesome gun, I got to test the pcsr (awesome blaster by Aeromech) and most importantly I made new friends. Now after writing all this do you realize that if anything this community does nothing but bring people together?

I'm going to start off by saying that I have seen superstock blasters do perfectly well at the wars that I've hosted, but as Langley points out, this is definitely helped the by field conditions. I agree with Pants that it's always fun to see people lit up by Rapidstrikes or whatever; there were quite a few corner engagements at the last Armageddon where a person with an automatic flywheel blaster dumped a full mag out of panic and nail a dude or two.

Between buying 1,000 USCs for $33 shipped or making 1,000 #6 slugs, I'd much rather get the USCs.

When you only think about how things are today, of course there are challenges and limited utility of superstock blasters in NIC/DIY wars.

I'm trying to switch to cut down ACCs for that exact reason. It's so much more convenient than spending the time to make them.

As a war host, one of the challenges of accommodating superstock users is that reloading a bunch of magazines is much more time consuming than loading a hopper. At smaller wars I've hosted, I've had to wait to start rounds for people to get fully ready, which isn't really a big deal but it's something that would need to be taken into consideration if more of the field was using magazines.

And this is the kind of attitude that is going to keep us "casuals" away from your NIC wars. There is already a division between NIC and Superstock so you guys can keep to yourself. I'm gonna keep having fun playing in public parks with blasters I don't have to worry about pelting pedestrians with.

Just to echo what other people have already said, I'd be hesitant to use my blasters because I don't like it if I hit someone twenty feet out using a blaster with twice (or more than twice) the muzzle velocity of their blaster. As a war host, I consider it my number one job to make sure everyone is having fun, and if a thirteen year old comes to my war with a lightly modded EAT, then neither he nor I will be having a good time if I'm continuously lasering him as he tries to get close enough to hit me.

I will also say that in the decade that I've been doing Nerf (considering easily more than fifty wars in public places), I have never seen a pedestrian hit. It's a rule at my wars that everyone calls hold and we all stop if people are walking by the play area, but even at wars where that didn't happen, it's not been an issue.

If you don't want this to be an issue make it clearly stated what the fps limits are and possibly cater to your playerbase. I don't know what the SE wars are like but if the vast majority of players show up with superstockers you may be trying to push the wrong game. I host the games for the Western Indiana Nerf club and I choose superstock and clearly advertise a fps limit of 150. If several of my players wanted a no fps limit war with homemades I would consider a war like that. It's up to the admin to not alienate their playerbase.

I agree with you here and I think that most war hosts (e.g. those in the South East) know their base well enough to host wars the way that they have been hosted, which is why you see no hopper wars or no dart restriction wars or whatever. I guess the heuristic process of war limits in NIC-style wars hosted here may seem a little obtuse to people just starting out, but it's a little easier to grok than FPS limits if you don't have access to a chronograph.

I'm sure you did realize that Spud was speaking hypothetically, but I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that if you don't like what's going on in your local war scene, there is nothing stopping you from hosting your own events. I disagreed with SCUN-style war rules so I started hosting my own, and I went to pretty much all of theirs and they came to pretty much all of mine and everyone was fine about it. Be the change you want to see, etc.

(I'd also like to say that I'm glad we're having this discussion, especially with people on "both" sides of the argument, so if you have dissenting opinions please feel free to sign up here and put them up. We don't ban people for having different opinions from ours (although Langely did give Kane the title of "belligerent asshole;" to be fair, he is).)

To respond, why aggrevate and keep building on the US vs THEM in the community?
People can have whatever restrictions they choose, and it's up to the local in the area to show up or not.

You must know, that it is very common for a lot of people to do both types of events. I don't know if you're relying off old pre 2012 perception of Nerfhaven and that it's only DIY grade shit, you miss the entire modification section, and that wars are not required to be just DIY at wars. (I've fuckin ran around superstock at a DIY war, just gotta load mags fast)

Admins don't alienate the player base, and to be real, people are a lot better in person. If there were a lot of superstock at an NIC war, it'd be a great mix of roles and seems like a lot of fun. Just having wars in general are fun, there's advantages and disadvantages to superstock VS DIY.
Zombona why do you seem so hateful?

Do you feel superstock-style blasters and ammo are viable in an NIC war, where many people are using homemade darts and blasters? Would you be more or less likely to attend an NIC war that had a few superstock rounds mixed into it?

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I believe superstock blasters and ammo are perfectly viable at an NIC war. It just takes a different loadout and strategy.

Whether a war has both NIC and superstock rounds makes no difference to me. I'd probably just pick one style to play and pack for due to everything I'd have to carry; my superstock loadout requires a lot of ammo and mags.

Do you feel superstock-style blasters and ammo are viable in an NIC war, where many people are using homemade darts and blasters? Would you be more or less likely to attend an NIC war that had a few superstock rounds mixed into it?

In short: yes, I do think superstock is viable in outdoor wars, even when competing against modern homemade blasters and darts. But only with the proper ingredients. Homemade guns have a very clear range advantage over superstock, so you need to minimize that advantage to level the playing field. Having lots of cover is basically the only way to do that - you want to shorten the average fire lane down to the average effective range of a superstock blaster.

Easy answer, but difficult to implement in practice. At it's core, nerf wars are a low-cost event that utilizes existing public parks as a play space. And the average public park doesn't have enough cover to make superstock effective. You either have to bring your own obstacles (which is significantly more effort), or play at an airsoft/paintball field (which is significantly more expensive). I won't trivialize the problem - this is a major issue for war organizers who want to make the game more accessible to players who want to use stock and superstock blasters.

When I was going to outdoor wars in 2008-2010, we generally just showed up and played, without setting up any obstacles. Occasionally some of us would dick around with stock/superstock blasters at these wars, but the performance difference was so exacerbated by the lack of cover that our local community stopped using superstock in favor of very heavily modified or homemade blasters. I enjoyed this style of play, but I will admit that it was significantly less accessible to new players who were not yet capable of the same level of DIY customization. This kind of play also has a distinctly different feel than stock wars, which can turn off some people who expected something closer to what office nerf wars are like. Since then, I've made much more of an effort to choose locations with lots of existing cover, and supplement it with homemade obstacles.

There has been a trend towards hosting superstock-only wars, as kind of a stopgap solution. I'm not against these kinds of limits in principle (I was very much involved in pushing people to not use heavy or hard-tipped darts at wars, for gameplay reasons). But there is a cost to limiting the game too far in the superstock direction - it pushes out very enthusiastic players like myself who wants to use my homemade and heavily modded blasters. I'm okay with superstock rounds in a war, but I want to use my SNAP for most of the day.