So what is the deal with Epic? I see they advertise a lot and even sponsored the Chic Flick but are they producing any significant quantities of their boat? Is their a problem with production of the boat? I noticed in their ads they advertise the Volvo 8.1 motor however in the virtual Test Drive www.wakeboardingmag.com/epic2008 and in the Wakeboarding Buyers Guide they show a picture of a Mercury. Is there motor problems? Also on a recent trip through the interior of British Columbia I noticed that there are approximately 15 unfinished Epic Boats at the Katana plant? Is Katana www.katanaboats.com no longer making their boats? I know there are a few dealers around that have one of the Epics, however they are earlier version prototypes, does anyone have the new 2008? Epic's look pretty sweet it would be nice to see them on the water!

Keep in mind they are a new company in the marine world. Realistically, 10 years is the magic number in boar building industry... if you can get past that point... then there is a good chance you can survive.

I could not imagine an expensive venture in this tightening market place...

Maybe when I come out with my new 21 foot wake sport specific boat... instead of looking for some private equity firm or bank to back me...

I just so happened to visit the Epic Factory a few weeks ago. Here’s some pics of the factory:

The boat hulls are still being produced by Katana in B.C., but they are sending them to a brand new Epic Factory in San Diego, CA for assembly. The Epic Crew wanted closer control over final assembly, water testing, etc. Basically, they wanted to increase the Quality Control and give future Epic Wakeboat owners a chance to visit the factory in San Diego and see first hand the professionalism that goes into each and every Epic.

As far as the engine goes, they did switch to the 8.1 Mercury engine (same GM Block). They were having difficulties with the oil supply on the Volvo engines, and Volvo was working on correcting the problem (basically Volvo just had to add some baffles in the oil pan and re-position the oil pump. Instead of waiting around for a simple solution, of which wasn’t apparently on Volvo’s top priority list, Epic went with the Mercury engine.) Keep in mind that Epic doesn’t make the engines, just as Nautique doesn’t make the PCM engines they use, nor does MasterCraft and Malibu make the Indmar engines they use. Side Note…I went round-and-round with Nautique when I had problems with my ZR6 PCM motor, and Nautique always said it’s a PCM issue, not a Nautique Issue. Although this wasn’t the answer I wanted to hear, it is the reality of the Towboat industry.

However…In switching to Mercury Epic got some really cool stuff that Volvo wasn’t offering. The Mercury engine comes standard with fresh water cooling (awesome for people like me who live in areas with only salt water). Also, Mercury has a sick GPS/RPM based speed control system (I believe Epic was their launch customer) that comes standard. I drove the Epic with a rider in tow, 4 people in the boat, and 4,000 lbs. of ballast, and it was by far the best and speed control system I have ever experienced (I have driven with the 2007 Malibu speed control system and the 2007 Perfect Pass Pro on the Nautiques). The double-ups were sooo easy, especially with the vector steer system (the dual rudders helps turn the boat when you want it to turn, yet it keeps the boat straight as an arrow when you are driving a straight line).

All in all, the boat was totally Core (contrary to how it was “rated” in Wakeboard Magazine’s Boat Review, LOL). The wake was sick, the driving was sick, and the boat was SICK! It’s not a family boat with all the bells and whistles, so if you come from a pimped out boat with a portable dinning table, you may be disappointed with the lack of “Bling”. But, for guys like me, the “Utilitarian” concept is spot-on, I want to ride all day and do a quick and simple clean-up with I’m done. Also, the fact that it has a Mercury is a HUGE benefit to me, as I live in Hawaii and there is no certified or official trained/authorized PCM or Indmar boat repair facility that I can take my boat to (which is why I am selling my Nautique). The fact is, Mercury has way more repair facilities throughout the U.S. as well as Internationally, so ultimately the Customer is benefiting from the market share of Mercury (in Hawaii every boat repair facility I went to scratched their heads at “PCM”, but they all know Mercury!).

So, if things work out for me the way I hope they will, I'll be riding behind an Epic in Hawaii very soon! And for all you WakeWorlders out there, if you are in Hawaii and want to ride behind the Beast, give me a Shout!

To all those doubters out there, rest assured that Epic is Alive and Well!

Hit me up next time your in Hawaii, I'll try to give you a pull, or I can try to hook you up with someone else that will give you a pull if I'm working. We got several late model Nautiques and Malibus on Island, and hopefully an Epic Soon Not sure if your familiar with the Slipper Island scene, but check out the Oahu Water Ski Club's website:

Kahuna... I may be there again in March... but 3 years ago when I was there.. Reid Shimbukuru was suppose to take me.. but the Keehi Lagoon was messed up... then the following year I went to Hawaii Water Sports.. just to get out... then this Dec... it rained rained rained... so looking at March for another visit...

HeHateMe....Have you ever seen a Liquid Ride boat? They are one hot boat. Very Very Expensive. This spring I have the Opportunity to demo One. I would like, one of the wakeboarding Mag's to do a profile on one. To my understanding, that Interior Fibregas Ltd. who build Malibu boats( Canadiann runabout boats) and Liquid Ride boats, they only make 15-20 Liquid Ride boats a year.

Hopefully, since they went with the Merc engine, they also got rid of the I/O style throttle control. On the model I drove, there was only 1/4" of a gap between it and the steering wheel when cruising around 20MPH. Also, the Volvo engine was extremely loud.

Robert. Yes you are correct about Liquid Ride. Interior Fibreglass was a family owned and operated shop building mostly the Malibu Runabouts. The Liquid Ride was the son's baby! Basically build a classy boat from the ground up.

Now they have been bought out by Katana... whom is the hull and deck builder for Epic.

All in all... all tournament boats in the market today are very nice... ranging from $37,000 to $125,000... I would say you are getting the same quality of fibreglass work in all of them... it is everything else that goes into them that dictates the price. ie motor, quality of vinyl, bling options... etc..

HeHateMe. I am suprised that they sold to Katana. I have met the Owners of Malibu and Liquid ride. My first boat was a Malibu 1850 Special edition. It was a great runabout boat. I just about bought a Katana instead of a Malibu. This was five years ago.

Positive the hulls are still being built in Summerland. Go look for yourself.

As for dealers in Canada in the west...

I tried to get a dealer set up that covered all of BC and Alberta... but they took on two other lines instead because there were not enough being built to satisfy their inventory needs so they did not even persue it.

If you want to test drive one.. there are opportunities to do so in Penticton... it is an older one with the Volvo.. which as stated before has been very problematic... but it will still give you an idea of performance, handling, and wake.

If you want to buy one, I assume Chris would hook you up with a deal until a dealer is set up.

I have also been in the Liquid Ride. Nice boat not not worth the price they are asking. If the boat was in the high 50's or low 60's I could see more interest but 90k cdn .. way too much. The build quality was good but can still use some improvement. Also Liquid Ride does not advertise a 1/10 the amount that Epic does. Epic has done a great job to get their name out there... just would be nice to see some boats now!!

Rob... you shouls see a lot of boats coming out soon... now that the motor issue has been resolved.

I could not imagine if they had built what Katana stated in their public release 2 years ago... thousands of boats over the first 1-3 years... that would have meant there would have been 11000+ Volvos coming back for replacement. Yikes.

Good thing they are back to a proven inboard application motor...

Personally... I think it should even be more standard and go to a properly propped and geared... 5.7L Merc.

Liquid Ride had a perfect match of price vs production. At that price they sold enough to keep production moving but not over loaded! Good business planning!

Keep in mind.. the Epic is no longer $49,999. It is now $72k+. There are a lot of boats in that price range. When it was first introduced, it was in the sub $50k range which attracted a lot of interest... I would say lots of potential buyers will now take a second look at.. MC, BU, SAN, SUPRA etc....

In my opinion... I would rather see less advertising... less signing of pro riders.. and drop the price to get more boats on the market...

I think from a marketing stand point with the EPIC making a bold statement that they are a OURE wake building machine...

Print advertising doesn't do justice for the wake... but people riding behind one does...

Drop the price $10k for the first 50 boats... the more people that see, drive, or ride one... the quicker they can sell more...

Marketing plan...

1. Factory Direct pricing through the dealer network!!! First 50 - 2008 models - $50k each The next 50 @ $55k. The next 50 @ $60k.

3. 2010 Model - 10 year anniversary (original creation). They would now have two models in full swing... hopefully over 250 boats out in the real world... Charge full price for each. Dealers are now well established.

Come to think of it.. maybe I will put a business plan together for my Grade 12 Marketing Assignment!

Hehateme- Luciano is referring to a guy prolly close to a year or more ago now in an Epic thread and was spewing ish about the hull design won't last 5 minutes blah blah and that the hull is unsafe and will without a doubt crack with that much weight... moral of the story he was an idiot an he never returned

I made reference in the past about the stringer/ballast structure could come separated from the actual hull causing leakage of the ballast into the boat and into the core... which occured on a few of the first boats to be produced. I believe there is a dealer in the US that actually has one that is having problems with the ballast leaking. I prefer have a boat that has a floor that can be removed to service items below the floor... like ballast tanks. But they do not use ballast tanks.. just glassed in baffles and the floor make up the ballast... I still wish they would put tanks or a liner system in there... but they know better than I do. I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. But I also dont think that if you have a problem with something... you change it... so it is fixed and wont happen again. Similar to motor... they had a problem with Volvo's blowing up... they changed it.. the exhaust was too loud.. they changed it.... those are big changes which help build confidence in potential buyers...

hehateme when are we gonna hear what actually happened with you and epic.....it has been brought up so many times that you used to be their worlds biggest supporter and even remember you saying you were going to be the first to buy one.... then something happened (WHAT WAS IT?). Now you are always giving them such a hard time. Looks pretty legit to me and sure it will take time to ramp up a following. It doesn't happen over night and yes you run into kinks. Don't fault the guys for shooting the moon and trying... I think it would be any of our dreams and you aren't helping...... so back to the question.... What is your deal on this subject... seriously...

No harm or hard feelings with this posting, but I just can't help to be one curious SOB and I think others that follow your posts are too... I come to you for the response cause I think Chris and Joe have too much pride to answer it...

There was never any business dealings with Epic. I simply called up Chris one day and asked what stage the Epic was at... back when the original black prototype was introduced.

Chris stated... we are looking for a manufacturer that would be willing to build the boats for him... but he wanted to be a hands on participant in the process... hence he didnt want to use a mass producer like Fineline or other bigger manufacturers.

So I called up a guy I knew in Penticton... George is his name... I had been through his factory a few times and always asked him when he would build a tournament boat... He said.. its not that easy to just make a mold for a tournament boat.. expecially when he was working on his runabout line. So I asked him if he would be interested in working with Chris.

So I connected the two of them... and then Chris made his way to Canada... spent many hours in the factory just stopping in to see the progess of the boat. During this time... Chris lived at my house and left me the keys to the black prototype!!! What a summer!!!

We even did an Epic unveiling and demo down at the local lakeside resort. It was a lot of fun.

When the very first boat was built the Volvo motor was fired up for the very first time in Epic history... I was the one who called Chris so he could hear it via cellular phone... we also joked around about the boat being all white and I told him there was a nice blue carpet in it... when he was demanding that it have the grey carpet... which it did... was just pulling his leg. Also this interior was done by a local upholsterer

Then when that boat had it very first water test... we had the Volvo rep in the boat... ran around the lake for about 20 minutes... when we came back to the launch... there was oil all over the engine floor... didnt know exactly what happened.

This boat was then sent down to San Diego for the DC Show promo... which in short time this motor blew up and then was being investigated by Volvo to look at the problem more closely.

This boat was instrumental in learning more about what had to be changed... due to the cost of having a small upholstery shop to the upholstery and making sure there was consistency.. the DC Boat was towed to somewhere out east... to get a new upholstery patterned... where it also reached freezing temperatures...

The freezing temperatures caused some delamination in the hull... due to the fact that when the baffles were installed into the hull... they were screwed and then glassed over... well what happened is when the ballast was full... water somehow worked its way down the thread of the screw and into the core... when it was left out east in freexing temperatures... the water froze causing expansion and the fiberglass bubbled in some areas.

I really didnt have a lot of input into the boat other than the glove box in the first few were a mold off of my glove box... I pulled mine and they used it as a plug...

Actually... this could be my only beef with them... and not so much Epic... but Katana... hahaha... They wrecked my original glove box and made me another one... which was very very very flimsy!

Oh yeah... and I picked out the one texture of vinyl because it seemed like the tough stuff my goal pads were made off...

Other than that... I didn't have any business dealings with Epic or Katana... verbal... written... or implied...

Maybe it was unfair to make comments because I had an inside track... so that is why... many of my previous comments were coming from already public knowledge... so it wasnt meant to be damaging... but constructive criticism.

But since you guys asked... I have posted everything that I can remember over the past 3 years of the development of the Epic since it came to Penticton.

As for bad blood... bad relationship... I don't have any issues with Epic or Katana... or anyone related to them...

I have never bashed the boat... just posted factual information that I was aware of.

I have some friends that own one and they have had nothing but problems...

Is this suppose to remain private? Would it be different if it was an X-Star they had and I made comments about all of the problems they had?

I think because Epic is a new company, you guys take it to heart that I am trying to make a company fail.

Give me a break... a person doesnt make a company fail.

Its a great boat... what are you worried about? I just simply post my thoughts on what I think... or what I have experienced.

Oh yeah... also I was accused of making multiple profiles etc... I own a large property that has seperate suites which are rented out during the summer and I have laptops on a wireless network for all of us to use. All of my friends that visited over those two summers enjoyed riding behind the Epic and still ask about it today.

So... as most you will probably not understand... I just post the way I see it...

Isn't that what a forum is for?

I have posted both positive and criticisms against almost all boat manufacturers.... I don't see any other attacks against me...

Gosh... do I have to watch my back with WAKECRAFT too? I hope they dont read these posts... I will start getting attacked by them too!

Nope... just wanted to hear your side of the story. Props to you for airing your laundry and props to the epic guys for doing what they are doing... it will take a lot of time for them to build a boat that the others have perfected over 30+ years. Where there is a will there is a way, I guess...

Diggs... at the end of the day... I spent many hours in the Prototype... and it was indestructable...

Compared to the prototype, I like the new tower, new stereo stuff, and the little bling to the interior, dash etc.

But I wish they would have kept the PCM powerplant and the liner system to the ballast. That is basically it.

I have no issues with resin infusion... but in the prototype, there was a ballast liner system that dropped into the hull... so no water was in contact with the actual hull...

I would say that the Volvo issue delayed this project a year longer than Chris wanted...

I would say without the engine problem... they would have 100 times more boats on the water today.

I had a long conversation with a friend in the boat building industry and he had some great ideas.

If there are still boats out there with Volvo motor... Epic should offer to take the boat back and maybe replace at no cost or for a nominal fee, upgrade them to the brand new model.

Take the boats they take back and replace the motor with the Merc and then offer them at a deep discount to wakeboard schools or clubs that are focussed to core riding population.

Its a win win for the Epic owner/supporter that bought one with the Volvo... and for Epic because it gets boats in the hands of core riders at a discounted price... which can be written off as advertising.

Great - can hardly wait to see some on the water soon. Just seems like a lot of extra transport costs by producing the hull in Canada then shipping all the way down to the USA to assemble. Will Epic be looking to produce the boat in the USA to save on costs or to they still intend to have the hulls manufactured in Canada?

Wasn't the original point of the Epic to produce a tournament, fully-loaded wake boat for under $50k? Now, it's $65k?? We all know that demand drives price/value, but it seems odd to scrap what you told the entire wake community 1.5 years ago...

If you're not going to deliver and hold to your word, then how can people expect you to do the same for anything else?

That having been said, I have tons of respect for Epic - coming out with a new concept that challenges perceptions and sets standards in this industry is impressive, and so necessary.

Rob I would assume with the sick shop they got going on in Cali... that they would take a quarter of it and make a spray booth. You would think they are getting killed on the dollar and transport... and what about what most offer... lifetime hull warranty... would the entire boat have to be shipped to Canada... I think it is only a matter of time... makes business sense.

Anodyne, in the Boat Buyers Guide the Epic is stated at $72,500. I think that includes a nice trailer too.

All in all... Maybe Epic really pushed the other manufacturers to another level.

When the Epic was first introduced, esthetically, it was very similar to the others.. dash and interior design etc...

Since that time... BU has gone totally high tech with LCD Dash Switches, Power Wedge, Programming options etc. MC has their new VDIG and other techno updates. SUPRA has their programming features too. TIGE has upgraded digital dash etc. SAN has had these updates for awhile.

I assume that the bigger manufacturers can upgrade these things easier because they are building thousands of boats...

I feel that the new guys or smaller companies... ie Epic, WakeCraft, Svfara, and other smaller manufacturers... should continue to stick to their guns and build a performance boat at a fair price... and let the performance speak for itself... not the cool blinking lights etc...

If they do that... they will slowly grow and capture market share.

What would really help them is if their become problems with all of the electronics found on these new fancy dash displays... if there become recurring problems... then maybe people will revert back to the tried tested and true analog gauges.

Only time will tell. At the end of the day... all that really matters... is quality and performance.

Well Chris told me he went with Epic because if its deifinition... and he had some cool old stink Epik wakeskate shoes... they were nasty!

Original had a PCM, but when he got connected with Katana... they were building runabouts with Volvo... so as a Volvo dealer... they tried the Volvo 8.1L , didnt work out because of the oil pan design and oil pump pick up... so now they are using Merc.

And for the hmmm... 100th time... no relation to Toyota... look through previous threads and his articles... and stories... you will see how the whole project came about...

Yeah Thanks. I have read several other threads and articles about chris, none of the ones I read said anything about any connection to the original toyaota brand, That is why I asked. Thanks for the info.

IMO. I would have chose a different name, even though epic is cool, the name ties chris's company back to the original toyotas (from the perspective of a non-wakeboarding addict)...

Also curious to if he had to buy any trademarks, or copyrights for the epic name usage from toyota? Thats where my original question came from, if he had no connection with them.