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Originally posted by brostyn

Forced grouping, all instances, no crafting, charging as much as a real MMO, Ebberon. Man, I'd say they did few things right. Character development, and, hmmm, I don't know what else is positive about the game.

Its too bad, really, that Turbine screwed up what should have been the best MMO ever.

No one forces you to group in the game I've done many quest solo. Some where long and difficult but it was worth knowing it could be soloed. And if you plan to solo you have to go in fully prepared and take your time. The quests are more fun if you are in a group with people you know. Don’t know why people prefer to solo an MMO.

I prefer the instances for quests, don’t want someone else to ruin my fun and experience, but cant say the same for the explorer areas.

I agree on the crafting part, so far raid crafting, or random armor crafting, don’t know how turbine considers randomness a type of crafting.

As for the price read interviews were Turbines pricing structure may change in 2009. With LotRO being a success, AC and DDO will always have funding.

DDO dungeons are well design and interesting is another positive.

Every MMO should have been the "best" MMO, same can be said for Conan, WAR, Matrix, Star Wars, Everquest 2. etc. Every MMO has their pros and cons there will never be a perfect MMO and if anyone believes that the next big MMO will be the best of them all, prepare to be disappointed.

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Originally posted by moorewr

Originally posted by brostyn

Forced grouping, all instances, no crafting, charging as much as a real MMO, Ebberon. Man, I'd say they did few things right. Character development, and, hmmm, I don't know what else is positive about the game.

Its too bad, really, that Turbine screwed up what should have been the best MMO ever.

That is not crafting. DDO does not have crafting, it lets you build an item from doing a raid how many times? There is no real crafting in DDO. Stop pretending it has crafting.

Heh. You may not like their crafting or consider it very complete, but that's not the same thing as no crafting. The above is a statement I can go along with - what they have done with crafting is barely a beginning.

(For the record: other non-raid/endgame crafting are durability, AC rituals for armor, and force damage for weapons.)

That is not crafting. DDO does not have crafting, it lets you build an item from doing a raid how many times? There is no real crafting in DDO. Stop pretending it has crafting.

Heh. You may not like their crafting or consider it very complete, but that's not the same thing as no crafting. The above is a statement I can go along with - what they have done with crafting is barely a beginning.

(For the record: other non-raid/endgame crafting are durability, AC rituals for armor, and force damage for weapons.)

It is not crafting. It is a collectible game that in order to participate you have to run the same raid how many times? It is at best the very beginning of a crafting system which if Turbine holds true to form will come in around 9 months or so after they say it will.

That is not crafting. DDO does not have crafting, it lets you build an item from doing a raid how many times? There is no real crafting in DDO. Stop pretending it has crafting.

Heh. You may not like their crafting or consider it very complete, but that's not the same thing as no crafting. The above is a statement I can go along with - what they have done with crafting is barely a beginning.

(For the record: other non-raid/endgame crafting are durability, AC rituals for armor, and force damage for weapons.)

It is not crafting. It is a collectible game that in order to participate you have to run the same raid how many times? It is at best the very beginning of a crafting system which if Turbine holds true to form will come in around 9 months or so after they say it will.

It is a collectable game. The play is collect so many of this size/type item and put them together and get this as a reward. Then collect so many of this size/type item, add it to your first reward and get this next reward. This continues until you receive the best item from the multiple combinations you can collect.

They call it crafting, but where is the craftsmanship? There is no skill development. There is only guessing at what combonination of your collectables are needed to make your next part of the item you want. (or do as most and look up the combo you need on the web)

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Originally posted by Rokurgepta

It is not crafting. It is a collectible game that in order to participate you have to run the same raid how many times? It is at best the very beginning of a crafting system which if Turbine holds true to form will come in around 9 months or so after they say it will.

Note again there is non-raid crafting made with low-level collectibles.. that too is more or less a reward turn-in, like the invader and desert tokens.. since of course we players went out and published all the formulas as soon as we knew them.

You are certainly right about the delays.. their "real" crafting system has already been delayed most of this year.

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I think we're talking about two different definitions of crafting.

Most games crafting means, toon has a crafting skill, finds or receives recipes, aquires ingredients for said recipies, completes an action with a skill check and either makes said crafted item or doesn't and has a chance to improve said skill.

DDO's "crafting" is a rather loose definition because it is: go find collectables and then turn them into someone or something and recieve item. There is no player development involved. Whether it is low level play or high level play, it really isn't crafting... it is a collection game.

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Originally posted by Greyflame11

I think we're talking about two different definitions of crafting.

Most games crafting means, toon has a crafting skill, finds or receives recipes, aquires ingredients for said recipies, completes an action with a skill check and either makes said crafted item or doesn't and has a chance to improve said skill.

DDO's "crafting" is a rather loose definition because it is: go find collectables and then turn them into someone or something and recieve item. There is no player development involved. Whether it is low level play or high level play, it really isn't crafting... it is a collection game.

You're are correct - there is no character skill mechanism, although there are ingredients. Pen and Paper D&D calls for feats and costs XP for crafting.. and here's been a good deal of debate by players how this should translate into MMO crafting.

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Well, someone mentioned a pricing structure revamp coming sometime in '09. This is the second time I've heard this little "rumor." Not to divulge to terribly much, but ( and yes, this is highly unsubstantiated as of yet) according to a guildie who is now an employee of Turbine (not a dev, just a number cruncher), expect Guild Wars and DDO to have more in common than just instances....

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Originally posted by Storman1977

Well, someone mentioned a pricing structure revamp coming sometime in '09. This is the second time I've heard this little "rumor." Not to divulge to terribly much, but ( and yes, this is highly unsubstantiated as of yet) according to a guildie who is now an employee of Turbine (not a dev, just a number cruncher), expect Guild Wars and DDO to have more in common than just instances....

I've heard that too, and it might actually make sense when you consider the state of DDO's subscriptions. They'd better really improve their content delivery if they are going to charge for modules rather than per month,

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Originally posted by moorewr

Originally posted by Storman1977

Well, someone mentioned a pricing structure revamp coming sometime in '09. This is the second time I've heard this little "rumor." Not to divulge to terribly much, but ( and yes, this is highly unsubstantiated as of yet) according to a guildie who is now an employee of Turbine (not a dev, just a number cruncher), expect Guild Wars and DDO to have more in common than just instances....

I've heard that too, and it might actually make sense when you consider the state of DDO's subscriptions. They'd better really improve their content delivery if they are going to charge for modules rather than per month,

As it goes from what Rhenne has said in guild chat, modules will more than likely remain free...Apparently the $40 million that Time Warner shifted over to Turbine had a few adendums to it reguarding allocation amongst its current games and a new IP...

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Originally posted by moorewr

Originally posted by Storman1977

Well, someone mentioned a pricing structure revamp coming sometime in '09. This is the second time I've heard this little "rumor." Not to divulge to terribly much, but ( and yes, this is highly unsubstantiated as of yet) according to a guildie who is now an employee of Turbine (not a dev, just a number cruncher), expect Guild Wars and DDO to have more in common than just instances....

I've heard that too, and it might actually make sense when you consider the state of DDO's subscriptions. They'd better really improve their content delivery if they are going to charge for modules rather than per month,

In order to be a success like GW they need to sell a lot of copies of the game. They would also need expansions to be huge to make them worth paying for. DDOs modules all combined might have been one or two expansions for some other MMOs. I would think to make this work Turbine would need to really crank some content to have an expansion coincide with changing the game to a GW style pricing format. Something that like GW adds whole new areas with new classes and new starting areas and quests up to high level to make it worthwhile. Or like EOTN a high level area with tons to do. If they try to sell what they give away in modules it really would not be worth it to me.

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Originally posted by moorewr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

It is not crafting. It is a collectible game that in order to participate you have to run the same raid how many times? It is at best the very beginning of a crafting system which if Turbine holds true to form will come in around 9 months or so after they say it will.

Note again there is non-raid crafting made with low-level collectibles.. that too is more or less a reward turn-in, like the invader and desert tokens.. since of course we players went out and published all the formulas as soon as we knew them.

You are certainly right about the delays.. their "real" crafting system has already been delayed most of this year.

Turbine: no deadline we can't miss.

Just a small hint m8, the crafting has been delayed since mod 3 and mod 4 and mod 5.... u get the picture, i´ve played since beta and that´s what they have said for the last 2 years.

DDO DOSE NOT have any crafting it´s a lottery in when you get your crap from the bookshelfs etc, and if u consider putting some fungus pebbles and twigs you need to find in a quest (lottery) as crafting u don´t know what crafting is. Futher more to the armour lottery... it´s not crafting there either it´s even more a fecking lottery so don´t get you´r hopes up for propper crafting for another 2 years or so.

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I think everything was alredy said in that topic. DDO hasn't got crafting, but Shroud / Elldritch / Dragontouched enhancements for equipment.

I think there was enough said it that topic. DDO didn't fail, I don't know what for someone people need to make such silly statements. It's completely unreasonable.

MMORPG.COM made very interesting polls lately. Check the poll named "How many subscribers does an MMO need in order to be considered successful?" on this page:www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/polls

Majority of voices are saying: "If the game makes enough money to continue operating, then it is a success" - 51.1% That's a lot . And if you see that we have now 3rd. year of DDO Anniversary, you know what I'm talking about.

Other polls are interesting too, and to me it looks like DDO has really great potential to gather more and more players in the months to come.

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I haven't played DDO for a while, because I have been trying to keep up with mates that play other mmo's and the truth is, running to many mmo's is costly, money and real life wise. None-theless, I am considering coming back to DDO.

I don't think the game failed, looking at the basics.The first thing that caught my attention when reading the initial post, was the myriad of changes that certain people want the game to have, like other games readily available out there. What's wrong in being a little different? Second, if people read up on the game in the first place, they knew what they were getting into. If you want guild vs guild, well, hey! There's a game called Guildwars, want to battle another guild and demolish their castle, keep or whatever, there's Dark Age of Camelot, Age of Conan and Warhammer online. Want a seemless world, where you can run around for hours on end and do the one whimsical quest after the other, have fun PvP'ing and brag about pwning (hate that word btw) other players and about your fancy pvp gear (which is useless in pve, unless you are playing WAR, etc) There's World of Warcraft. All these games have their charms and their own way of doing things, or simply copying what the others are doing.DDO has it's own following, for what the game is and was meant to be.

Personally, I quite liked the feel of DDO when I started playing around launch. I liked the look, the quests... it felt like D&D from the PnP RPG. True, there wasn't much in running around and exploring, but then again, the game was focused on Dungeons, solving riddles, disarming and avoiding traps and working together as a group. In essence, what D&D originally was.

Ask yourself this: If you want DDO to be like, say, WoW... Why not go and play WoW?Maybe at some point there will be another DDO that incorporates exploring a seemless world without instancing, etc. But DDO: Stormreach is the game that is right now. I don't think they are going to turn it into World of Warcraft to get more subscribers. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it.

Here's to games daring to be different, and not changing into something more mainstream because they think their subscriptions are too low (I think everybody took a lesson from SOE and Lucas Arts on that one... I hope)

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Great post Fenalaar . What else can I say, than that I completely agree. And I didn't play this game at launch, I play it more often since about a year, and I'm subscribed now too.

D&D Online is a unique game, and making it "regular" WoW clone isn't what I'd wish from Turbine. I really respect them for daring to be different, which seems to be now paying off. People are really getting bored with games which play like WoW (WAR, for example). Many of them are discovering DDO now. Recently there was post on DDO EU forums, where new player said he played WoW since 4 years. And now he thinks he just wasted his time there, he plays DDO now.

I think it's a great time to return to DDO . The game and community feels like it's having some rebirth, not only rejuvenation. We all keep waiting for Mod 9 (concept art in the attachment), but even now it's getting hot in there .

If you or anyone is thinking about returing to DDO or trying it out for the first time: in DDO EU, starting March 23rd, will have a "Welcome back week" with +50% boost. It's because of DDO's 3rd Anniversary. It's exactly one week, from 23rd March to March 30.

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Yeah, I will be returning to DDO, no doubt about it. I can do my mining etc in EVE when I just want to sit back and read or draw, hehe.

DDO EU is where I am at, though I might need to make new characters, just to get in the groove again with the mechanics. Suggestions for servers? And, if possible, could you scoop me an in-game name, so I can get in touch with you there? I am actually patching as I am typing this hehe.

Here's to many good years to come for DDO.

(and no, I am not a fanboy, I just happen to like the game for what it is.)

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Yeah, I will be returning to DDO, no doubt about it. I can do my mining etc in EVE when I just want to sit back and read or draw, hehe.

DDO EU is where I am at, though I might need to make new characters, just to get in the groove again with the mechanics. Suggestions for servers? And, if possible, could you scoop me an in-game name, so I can get in touch with you there? I am actually patching as I am typing this hehe.

Here's to many good years to come for DDO.

(and no, I am not a fanboy, I just happen to like the game for what it is.)

Hi! My apologies, firstly I missed your post somehow and then mmorpg.com had some problems or something, I couldn't post here. Hope this time it works...

My main character is Sarr, like my nick, and I play on Keeper. But I have very little time to play right now, sadly... I must choose a drummer for my band and so, we have much work to do and such, so I may be playing very rarely for a few weeks ; /. Sorry for that. But I'm sure there are many players who will be glad to play with you. Jump in our DDO EU forums, we have some nice and lively community :).

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While I do not currently play DDO (or any other MMO), DDO is the only game that I have this website keep me updated on.

Along with EVE Online, I would say that DDO was the best online gaming experience I've had yet.

Now to reply to some posts...

Quote: The reason the DDO failed was that the whole game was a bunch of instances..

It's just so dissapointing that in order to save money the devs deside to make all places instanced in order to avoid making betetr servers and give more money for that ...save alot of work also and they prefer the easy way ... That sucks :/

Perhaps, for you personally this is true, but DDO uses instances for some very specific reasons, which have allowed the game to be a great success. One of the many reasons for using instances was to entice players to work together to solve quests that did not rely on defeating X amount of monsters or collecting X number of objects. With the instances, the developers are given more freedom in determining what makes a quest. In most DDO quests, killing monsters is entirely optional, which I thoroughly enjoy. I cannot express how tiring it is to play a grind game (such as World of Warcraft).

Quote: I really have no idea why they had to make finding quest givers (and dungeon entrances) such incredible pain in the ass.

I can understand where some players might be frustrated, but for the most part, the quests are within a few feet of the quest giver, if not within sight. It has also been pointed out that the mini-map now makes it easier to find quests and entrances. The quests are set up in this manner to give the player some feeling of immersion in the game world, where they are helping fellows in the city, rather than mindlessly beating on things until a reward is given.

Quote: If DDO has failed, it is because Turbine tried to bring a PnP game to our screen and advertised it as an MMO.

I agree in the sense that DDO should not have been advertised as an MMORPG. I feel that there has been a craze lately, with MMORPGs, that causes many people to miss out on the many other kinds of games that are similar. The game that I am creating, for example, will be called an OARPG. An Online Action Role-Paying Game. Part of my reasoning for this is to avoid confusion and false expectations. The MMORPG community most definitely has its expectations when it comes to MMORPGs. When something expected isn't found, confusion and often anger ensues. By Online Action Role-Playing Game I certainly don't mean that the game wont be designed for dozens of servers with thousands of people playing per server, but that the game is a different breed of a similar genus. In regards to the servers however, I am not completely solid, as EVE Online uses a very interesting setup, having several servers dedicated to one gigantic expanse of a galaxy/universe. I may very well follow in similar footsteps.

Quote: But what hurts it? First the Monty Haul-ness of the game. From the outset, DDO gave players too powerful weapons, armor, and gadgets. This caused an inflation of hit points for both PC’s and mobs right from the beginning that has continued to present.

For the kind of player that expected a legitimate D&D 3.5 experience, this certainly does hurt the game, however, we see this because Turbine is trying to cater to several crowds at once. Were Turbine to have only catered to a single mind-set, the game might actually have died.

Quote: AC, which should be a huge part of the tank class, means nothing. DPS has become the king and classes are known to give up AC because the goal is to cut down mobs as quick as possible. There is no strategy, no foreplanning (of course everyone has done the same dungeon multiple times since there is such limited content) and quite frankly, you will feel like a hamster on a treadmill since this game has become such in order to get the "best" stuff.

This is a nasty side effect of the aforementioned Monty Haul aspect which I have found to be a major detractor from the game. As an old DM for many a D&D game, there is a balance one must find when challenging a group. The AC, HP, and AB (among many other factors) must vary in such a manner as to provide a challenge without creating a wall of despair. When AC becomes meaningless, something has gone wrong.

Quote: And what game does not become a treadmill at some point?

Even life is a treadmill, but I am of the opinion that grinding (treadmilling) in games should be avoided as much as possible. Games that rely on time-sinks to simply keep their players occupied leave much to be desired.

Quote: Forced grouping, all instances, no crafting, charging as much as a real MMO, Ebberon. Man, I'd say they did few things right. Character development, and, hmmm, I don't know what else is positive about the game.
Its too bad, really, that Turbine screwed up what should have been the best MMO ever.

I'm not sure when people decided that crafting is the holy grail for online games, as it's most certainly not. Crafting is a style of play that caters to a specific type of player, not a necessity for all games. Grouping in DDO is encouraged, which is what helps to set it apart from the typical MMORPG format. I find that the grouping in DDO is one of the many things that made the game enjoyable for me. When it comes to pricing, I find that most online subscription games are overpriced, but that might be because I tend to live on about $500.00 a month after all expenses are considered. There is some statistical number crunching going on, when determining how much a game will cost to play online, or at least, there should be. Would dropping the price of DDO to $5.00 per month or less get a larger customer base? Hell yeah, I'd be one of them. But would there be enough new players to make up for it? Maybe, maybe not. If the answer is yes, then they should waste no time at all changing the pricing of subscription.

Quote: I've heard that too, and it might actually make sense when you consider the state of DDO's subscriptions. They'd better really improve their content delivery if they are going to charge for modules rather than per month,

I would say that the amount they charged for the modules would have to depend on how much content they added, perhaps they could use a sliding scale. Either way, if DDO stops requiring a monthly subscription fee I will be playing it again (as I do not have enough spare time to dedicate to it to justify paying a full monthly fee).

[Edit: quote color changed from a retina-burning blue to a nice easy gray]