Rumsfeld Denies Abuses Occurred at Interrogations

By ERIC SCHMITT

The New York Times

August 28, 2004

WASHINGTON, Aug. 27 - In his first comments on the two major investigative
reports issued this week at the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld
on Thursday mischaracterized one of their central findings about the American
military's treatment of Iraqi prisoners by saying there was no evidence that
prisoners had been abused during interrogations.

The reports, one by a
panel Mr. Rumsfeld had appointed and one by three Army generals, made clear
that some abuses occurred during interrogations, that others were intended to
soften up prisoners who were to be questioned, and that many intelligence
personnel involved in the interrogations were implicated in the abuses. The
reports were issued Tuesday and Wednesday.

But on Thursday, in an
interview with a radio station in Phoenix, Mr. Rumsfeld, who was traveling
outside Washington this week, said, "I have not seen anything thus far that says
that the people abused were abused in the process of interrogating them or for
interrogation purposes." A transcript of the interview was posted on the
Pentagon's Web site on Friday. Mr. Rumsfeld repeated the assertion a few hours
later at a news conference in Phoenix, adding that "all of the press, all of the
television thus far that tried to link the abuse that took place to
interrogation techniques in Iraq has not yet been demonstrated." After an aide
slipped him a note during the news conference, however, Mr. Rumsfeld corrected
himself, noting that an inquiry by three Army generals had, in fact, found "two
or three" cases of abuse during interrogations or the interrogations process.
In fact, however, the Army inquiry found that 13 of 44 instances of abuse
involved interrogations or the interrogation process, an Army spokeswoma n said.
The report itself explicitly describes the extent to which each abuse involved
interrogations.

On Friday, the chief Pentagon spokesman, Lawrence Di
Rita, sought to play down Mr. Rumsfeld's comments, saying: "He misspoke, pure
and simple. But he corrected himself."

While the abuses that first came
to light - depicted in photographs taken in Abu Ghraib prison - were not the
ones involving interrogations, the subsequent investigations have shown that,
among other abuses, prisoners were kept in harsh isolation, beaten, kept naked
and threatened by dogs as part of the interrogation process there. Mr.
Rumsfeld has condemned the prisoner abuses, and did so again in his public
appearances on Thursday in Arizona. But he has also hewed to the line that a
small band of rogue military police were largely responsible for the beatings,
sexual humiliating poses and other abuses, especially those depicted in a
notorious set of photographs that became public in April.

So his
remarks on Thursday suggested to some lawmakers on Friday that Mr. Rumsfeld was
either out of touch with what had captured headlines and evening news programs
this week, or was reluctant to acknowledge the panels' new findings.

"This is a very serious topic and before we comment on the findings, we need
to read them thoroughly," said Senator Jack Reed, a Rhode Island Democrat on the
Armed Services Committee, who acknowledged that he has been on vacation, too,
and has not yet read the full report.

Mr. Rumsfeld also misstated an
important finding of an independent panel he appointed and is led by James R.
Schlesinger, a former defense secretary, saying in the interview with KTAR
radio, "The interesting thing about the Schlesinger panel is their conclusion
that, in fact, the abuses seem not to have anything to do with interrogation at
all."

But the first paragraph of the Schlesinger panel report says, "We
do know that some of the egregious abuses at Abu Ghraib which were not
photographed did occur during interrogation sessions and that abuses during
interrogation sessions occurred elsewhere."

Mr. Rumsfeld has been on
and off vacation this week, meeting with President
Bush and visiting troops in Texas earlier in the week, while also spending
time at his home in Taos, N.M. On Thursday, Mr. Rumsfeld visited a Marine
Corps air base in Yuma, Ariz., before speaking to a business group in Phoenix.

While away from Washington, Mr. Rumsfeld has access to all the
classified communications channels and documents he needs to perform his duties.
Mr. Rumsfeld was briefed on the findings of the independent panel, but not the
Army report. Mr. Di Rita said he did not know if the secretary had yet
received copies of the two lengthy reports and read them. "That The New York
Times would find the secretary's misstatement and the subsequent effort to set
the record straight is of interest is a shameless example of news that is sought
during the dog days of August in Washington," another Pentagon spokesman, Eric
Ruff, said.

Both the four-member independent panel and the Army
inquiry, whose principal investigator was Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, found that
military intelligence personnel committed many of the offenses, including some
in interrogations.

The Fay report found, for example, that in 16 of the
44 abuse cases the inquiry cited, military intelligence personnel encouraged,
condoned or solicited military police officers to commit abuses, from using dogs
to terrorize prisoners to placing detainees in dark, poorly ventilated cells
that were freezing cold or sweltering hot. In 11 other cases they committed
abuses themselves.

In Phoenix, Mr. Rumsfeld accepted some
responsibility for the abuses at Abu Ghraib, saying, "I testified before the
Congress many, many weeks ago and said, you know, the senior person has a
responsibility," Mr. Rumsfeld said in the radio interview. The Schlesinger
panel said flaws in oversight extended up the chain of command to Mr.
Rumsfeld's office and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a finding that prompted Senator
John Kerry of Massachusetts, the Democratic presidential nominee, and some
other Democrats to renew their calls for Mr. Rumsfeld to resign. Mr.
Rumsfeld's Republican supporters have rejected those calls, but many of them
have referred to the naval analogy that the captain of the ship is ultimately
accountable for all that happens aboard the vessel.

Senator John W.
Warner, a Virginia Republican who leads the Armed Services Committee, told
reporters this week that he was leaving it to Mr. Rumsfeld to decide what to
do. "He understands the concept of command, the commanding officer ultimately
has to take responsibility for those actions in his subordinates that have
proven to be unprofessional or downright wrong."

Mr. Schlesinger,
speaking in an interview to be broadcast this weekend, concurred. "The
secretary of defense takes responsibility for whatever happens below, even
though he may have forbidden such action," Mr. Schlesinger told "One on One," a
weekly news interview program broadcast on both public and commercial stations
across the country.

While acknowledging his accountability, Mr. Rumsfeld
said Thursday that he could not watch over the millions of people who work in or
for the Defense Department. "Needless to say, if you are in Washington, D.C.,
you can't know what's going on the midnight shift in one of those many prisons
around the world." He added, "What happened shouldn't have happened."

Mr. Rumsfeld insisted that while the abuses "were a terrible thing to have
happened," the military has responded quickly and thoroughly to the allegations.
So far, four major reports into aspects of the misconduct have been released.
Four more are pending. "We keep learning more all the time," Mr. Rumsfeld
said. "It's a bit of a discovery process."