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Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281

Howdy Folks, Sounds good in theory, but unfortunately thermoelectric coolers are not very efficient, in the 10% range last time I looked. The fact that they

Message 1 of 28
, Aug 29 12:21 PM

Howdy Folks, Sounds good in theory, but unfortunately thermoelectric
coolers are not very efficient, in the 10% range last time I looked. The
fact that they are solid state with no moving parts makes them ideal for
small scale applications, but difficult to scale up to residential size.
Regards, Kevin

> > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
> > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
> >
> > Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
energy
> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
in
> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
energy.
> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
of
> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
(refrigerant)
> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
silica
> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
opportunity
> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
be
> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
> the unit works. I like that!
>
> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>
> Billy Bell
> PO Box 926
> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>
> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> 281-346-0994 Fax
> wmb@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Robert Johnston

Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is hard to find here! However, there wasn t much comment on this note from Billy Bell

Message 2 of 28
, Aug 31 4:14 PM

Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).

However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this area
ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts of
the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.

Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in our
area?
Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
are:

1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient solar
units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would help
a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.

2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it is
their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not good?
A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in the
heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight A/C's.
But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because they
don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions I'd
like to see discussed.

As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it was
managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops were
solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it may
have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such an
unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might have
caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could find
out more by asking around, or writing TDC.

In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can get
a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?

I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
concerned that this discussion group stays on target.

By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an energy
source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used in
residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable energy.
Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount of
electricity that is wasted producing this heat.

The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia (refrigerant)
and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and silica
gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.

There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much opportunity
to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could be
used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
the unit works. I like that!

Robert: Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life a little more complicated. I designed a system that used chilled water to

Message 3 of 28
, Aug 31 4:49 PM

Robert:

Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life a
little more complicated.

I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water to
heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.

I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you looked
at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of such
a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
problem is that I can't find any residential applications and information is
scarce.

Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is also
a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is geothermal
that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated water
through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked with a
company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use their
machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I have
no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has stopped
me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air conditioner
blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air. The
idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick in. I
wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size) and
have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it pumps. I
have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to cool
his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
wells.

Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all benefit
from sharing our knowledge.

> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>
> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
area
> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts
of
> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>
> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
our
> area?
> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> are:
>
> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
solar
> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
help
> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>
> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it
is
> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
good?
> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
the
> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
A/C's.
> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
they
> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
I'd
> like to see discussed.
>
> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
was
> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
were
> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
may
> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
an
> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
have
> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
find
> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>
> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
get
> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>
>
> > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
> > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
> >
> > Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
energy
> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
in
> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
energy.
> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
of
> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
(refrigerant)
> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
silica
> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
opportunity
> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
be
> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
> the unit works. I like that!
>
> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>
> Billy Bell
> PO Box 926
> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>
> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> 281-346-0994 Fax
> wmb@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

B ridget Jensen

I was interested in the geothermal heat pump form of air conditioning. Where space is limited and holes must be drilled rather than simply trenching and

Message 4 of 28
, Aug 31 4:55 PM

I was interested in the geothermal heat pump form of air conditioning.
Where space is limited and holes must be drilled rather than simply
trenching and burying the pipe over a large area, the cost does go up
considerably I've been told. Nonetheless, I was still keen on putting in
such a system. That is, until my existing system went totally out in the
middle of summer and I wanted a/c asap. If most consumers are like me, they
won't replace something that's still working. But then, when it does go
out, there's no time to wait for installation of the geothermal heat pump,
not to mention securing the loans that may be needed to pay for it.

With that said, I think the target market would be new home builders. As
builders of spec homes are usually trying to keep their costs low, at least
for things that are invisible, such as air conditioning, I don't see any of
the big homebuilders taking up this technology. Only someone who is
involved in the design of their own home would probably employ an
alternative a/c system.

Bridget Jensen

> From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:14:18 -0500
> To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>
> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this area
> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts of
> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>
> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in our
> area?
> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> are:
>
> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient solar
> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would help
> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>
> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it is
> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not good?
> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in the
> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight A/C's.
> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because they
> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions I'd
> like to see discussed.
>
> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it was
> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops were
> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it may
> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such an
> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might have
> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could find
> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>
> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can get
> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>
>
>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
>>
>> Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an energy
> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used in
> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable energy.
> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount of
> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia (refrigerant)
> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and silica
> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much opportunity
> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could be
> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
> the unit works. I like that!
>
> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>
> Billy Bell
> PO Box 926
> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>
> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> 281-346-0994 Fax
> wmb@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Terry Ross

I know nothing about much of this. However, geothermal is quite interesting. I have a 4 story apartment complex with thru wall heating and cooling units

Message 5 of 28
, Aug 31 5:43 PM

I know nothing about much of this. However, geothermal is quite
interesting. I have a 4 story apartment complex with thru wall heating
and cooling units (heat-strip). The utility bills, as you might
imagine, are quite expensive -- $7,800 for 100 1 BR 560 sf units. I
have one central unit that cools/heats the office, community room and
part of the hall. I probably have enough land area to lay pipes -- I
just don't know the cost. I also don't know if I can replace the thru
wall units that are closely akin to window units with water-source heat
pumps.

There has to be a better method of conditioning the air.

Our "president" is pushing nuclear which will cost $2,200 per kw to
build a plant and then have a continuing cost to produce the
electricity.

Solar has got to be cheaper!

All I know, is that I'm tired of paying Houston Looting and Plundering!

Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff
is
hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of
thermoelectric
cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).

However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
area
ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other
parts of
the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a
closed
system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.

Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
our
area?
Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
are:

1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
solar
units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
help
a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back
in
as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.

2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless
it is
their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
good?
A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
the
heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He
is
death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
A/C's.
But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool
compressed
gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've
seen
some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is
a
lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
they
don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of
installation?
What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
I'd
like to see discussed.

As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used
to
be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
was
managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I
also
know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new
warden's
homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
were
solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them
about
their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't
know
why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
may
have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
an
unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
have
caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
find
out more by asking around, or writing TDC.

In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
get
a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?

I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
concerned that this discussion group stays on target.

By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
energy
source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be
used in
residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
energy.
Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
of
electricity that is wasted producing this heat.

The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
(refrigerant)
and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
silica
gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out
a
system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when
it
evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.

There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
opportunity
to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that
could be
used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the
harder
the unit works. I like that!

I did a search under geo thermal air conditioners and come up with 880 listings. Most are for local shops all over the country etc but Enertran seems to be a

Message 6 of 28
, Aug 31 5:56 PM

I did a search under "geo thermal air conditioners" and come up with 880
listings. Most are for local shops all over the country etc but Enertran
seems to be a big operator in the geo thermal field. They have a lot of
general info on their web site at:

http://www.attcanada.ca/~newave/geo.html

I'm sure there are a lot more. There are 43 pages of "air conditioning
contractors" in the Houston yellow pages and I note that 3 or 4 specifically
mention geo thermal in their ads. In fact one outfit's name is "Geo Thermal &
A C Systems." Surely we could check with some of these guys to get more info
on costs, problems, etc.

Charlie

Polly Ledvina

The website for the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium is also a quite good: http://www.ghpc.org/home.htm Polly ... From: ChasMauch@aol.com To:

I did a search under
"geo thermal air conditioners" and come up with 880 listings. Most are for
local shops all over the country etc but Enertran seems to be a big
operator in the geo thermal field. They have a lot of general info on
their web site at:

I'm sure there are a lot more. There are 43 pages of "air conditioning
contractors" in the Houston yellow pages and I note that 3 or 4
specifically mention geo thermal in their ads. In fact one outfit's name
is "Geo Thermal & A C Systems." Surely we could check with some of
these guys to get more info on costs, problems, etc.

I had exactly the same experience! I had been researching geothermal on a very casual basis. Then my A/C went out. I called some of the vendors I d learned

Message 8 of 28
, Aug 31 6:32 PM

I had exactly the same experience! I had been researching geothermal on a
very
casual basis. Then my A/C went out. I called some of the vendors I'd
learned
about, and none of them could even start working on it for a couple weeks,
and
then the cost was very high, and they couldn't give me any reliable
information
about what my cost savings would be on electricity, or whether the mold
issue in
this area was real or not, etc.

I agree with you on the marketing problem. Spec home builders aren't going
to do
this.

However, I think that there really is a dearth of information from sources
that
people trust. Maybe if the vendors were the majors (Carrier, Goodman, etc.)
then
people would have more confidence in the product and would invest in it.

If the payback is there, and if the data really support the efficiency
improvements
over time (e.g., not just when new, before pipes scum up and lose heat
transfer,
etc.) then it would be interesting for an innovative company to offer
consumers
a replacement unit with guaranteed cost savings, backed by a major bank.
E.g.,
suppose your replacement Carrier was going to set you back $1500 and this
unit
costs $5000. If the energy payback time is 4 years, then they could arrange
for
you to pay $1500 and get a $3500 loan that is paid back by the cost savings
on
your electricity bill, and if the savings don't happen, then the vendor eats
it.

I'm obviously not a businessman; this probably wouldn't fly. But somehow
people
have got to be made to believe in it if it really works. Of course, if it
doesn't,
then people need to know that, and the sooner the better.

I was interested in the geothermal heat pump form of air conditioning.
Where space is limited and holes must be drilled rather than simply
trenching and burying the pipe over a large area, the cost does go up
considerably I've been told. Nonetheless, I was still keen on putting in
such a system. That is, until my existing system went totally out in the
middle of summer and I wanted a/c asap. If most consumers are like me, they
won't replace something that's still working. But then, when it does go
out, there's no time to wait for installation of the geothermal heat pump,
not to mention securing the loans that may be needed to pay for it.

With that said, I think the target market would be new home builders. As
builders of spec homes are usually trying to keep their costs low, at least
for things that are invisible, such as air conditioning, I don't see any of
the big homebuilders taking up this technology. Only someone who is
involved in the design of their own home would probably employ an
alternative a/c system.

Bridget Jensen

> From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:14:18 -0500
> To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>
> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this

area

> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts

of

> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>
> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in

our

> area?
> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> are:
>
> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient

solar

> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would

help

> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>
> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it

is

> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not

good?

> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in

the

> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight

A/C's.

> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because

they

> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions

I'd

> like to see discussed.
>
> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it

was

> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops

were

> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it

may

> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such

an

> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might

have

> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could

find

> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>
> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can

get

> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>
>
>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
>>
>> Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an

energy

> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used

in

> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable

energy.

> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount

of

> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia

(refrigerant)

> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and

silica

> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much

opportunity

> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could

I hadn t noticed the weblinks in my quick read before. Adsorption/absorption chillers are not new. We have one in the building where I work. They are

Message 9 of 28
, Aug 31 6:58 PM

I hadn't noticed the weblinks in my quick read before.
Adsorption/absorption chillers
are not new. We have one in the building where I work. They are efficient
on an
industrial scale. I don't know what factors have kept them from scaling
down to
home use, but it would be interesting if they could.

Actually, I suppose you could consider this a variant on the dessicant drier
tech
I mentioned, since silica after all is a dessicant.

The Krum link is to Houston; anyone know these people? They appear just to
be
distributors, but maybe they might have some idea of the factors that limit
downsizing.

These units are industrial size, of course. Wonder if scaledown is even
practical.
These units are 6' x 9' x 9' and the input hot water flow is around 10 cubic
feet/min.
That is a little fast for most solar hot water heaters to produce! They
seem better
suited to cogeneration in industrial systems that generate heat.

Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life a
little more complicated.

I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water to
heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.

I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you looked
at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of such
a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
problem is that I can't find any residential applications and information is
scarce.

Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is also
a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is geothermal
that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated water
through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked with a
company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use their
machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I have
no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has stopped
me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air conditioner
blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air. The
idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick in. I
wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size) and
have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it pumps. I
have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to cool
his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
wells.

Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all benefit
from sharing our knowledge.

> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>
> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
area
> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts
of
> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>
> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
our
> area?
> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> are:
>
> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
solar
> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
help
> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>
> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it
is
> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
good?
> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
the
> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
A/C's.
> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
they
> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
I'd
> like to see discussed.
>
> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
was
> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
were
> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
may
> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
an
> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
have
> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
find
> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>
> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
get
> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>
>
> > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
> > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
> >
> > Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
energy
> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
in
> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
energy.
> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
of
> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
(refrigerant)
> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
silica
> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
opportunity
> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
be
> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
> the unit works. I like that!
>
> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>
> Billy Bell
> PO Box 926
> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>
> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> 281-346-0994 Fax
> wmb@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Air Conditioning and other things. One of the major reasons that Biomass A?c has not taken off in the Houston area has to do with the water table around here.

Message 10 of 28
, Aug 31 7:06 PM

Air Conditioning and other things.

One of the major reasons that Biomass A?c has not taken off in the Houston
area has to do with the water table around here. It would be very difficult
for you to build one that didn't have problems with water seapage. This
then brings up the problem with Mold and mildew. These two problems by them
selves can be solved with proper designed de-humidifier systems in houses.
Unfortunally the builders in the Houston area don't know thier head for a
hold in the ground when it comes to building a house that uses the current
style of air conditioners correctly. I recently moved out of a two story
house that was a nightmare to heat and cool and the electrictiy bills were
sky high. When the upstairs was cool the down stairs was hot and vice
versa. Also the de-humidifier was way too small for the house which
resulted in mold buildup inside the walls in areas like the bathrooms and
closets. This mold resulted in severe health problems for my wife and her
asama. Since moving to a new place, that was a well designed A/C system,
all these problems have been eliminated.

I see that the major problem with A/C in Houston is not the units them
selves but how the houses are designed and built. I think that the Home
builders need to go back to school and take a loot at historical houses in
Texas and learn how to build a house that will last for over a hundred years
and one that uses the natural enviroment to help heat and cool the house. I
have been in some old 100 year plus houses in texas in the full heat of the
summer that do not have A/C and they are cool inside. Thats becuse the
builder knew how to build a house to make use of air flow and shading from
large covered porches and cross ventalation from the placement of the
windows.

But when you have a home builder that is only concerened with making as much
money as possible and cramming as many houses on a peice of land as
possible, it would almost be impossible to build a enviromentaly passive
house. Take my brother's house for an example. The lot is so small and the
neighbors houses are so close that you can walk between them and streach out
both arms to your side and you would touch both his house and his neighbors.
6 feet people. I you wanted to put solar panels on the roof to generate any
amount of electricity, it wouldn't do you any good since the two story
houses around it would block the panels for half of the day. And as for as
installing a Cistern to store rain water for water the grass, thats out
cause the back yard is so small that there is not enough space to install a
leach field.

Until the builders change the way they build in Houston and texas, about the
best you can do to use most of the available enviromentally friendly items
out there, is to insulate, insulate, use double pane windows and to change
to CF lights and energy efficent appliances.

> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>
> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
area
> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts
of
> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>
> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
our
> area?
> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> are:
>
> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
solar
> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
help
> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>
> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it
is
> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
good?
> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
the
> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
A/C's.
> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
they
> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
I'd
> like to see discussed.
>
> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
was
> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
were
> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
may
> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
an
> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
have
> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
find
> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>
> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
get
> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>
>
> > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
> > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
> >
> > Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
energy
> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
in
> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
energy.
> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
of
> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
(refrigerant)
> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
silica
> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
opportunity
> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
be
> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
> the unit works. I like that!
>
> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>
> Billy Bell
> PO Box 926
> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>
> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> 281-346-0994 Fax
> wmb@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Kim & Garth Travis

Hi, I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft. building. My circulating pump is from a 15 diameter swimming pool. I installed my pipe under a

Message 11 of 28
, Sep 1, 2001

Hi,
I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft. building. My
circulating pump is from a 15' diameter swimming pool. I installed my
pipe under a raised garden bed that is filled with plants that like wet
feet. In the testing we have done on the garden bed water, we seem to
be washing the heat away. The plans call for the cooling pipe to be
installed at the 8' level on the walls as well as in the floor.
Kim

William M. Bell, Jr. wrote:

> Robert:
>
> Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life a
> little more complicated.
>
> I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water to
> heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
> holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.
>
> I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
> solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you looked
> at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of such
> a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
> chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
> problem is that I can't find any residential applications and information is
> scarce.
>
> Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
> encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is also
> a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is geothermal
> that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated water
> through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked with a
> company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
> cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use their
> machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I have
> no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has stopped
> me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air conditioner
> blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air. The
> idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick in. I
> wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size) and
> have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it pumps. I
> have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to cool
> his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
> wells.
>
> Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all benefit
> from sharing our knowledge.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
> Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
>
>
>> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
>> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
>> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
>> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>>
>> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
>> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
>
> area
>
>> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts
>
> of
>
>> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
>> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
>> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>>
>> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
>
> our
>
>> area?
>> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
>> are:
>>
>> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
>> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
>
> solar
>
>> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
>
> help
>
>> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
>> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>>
>> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it
>
> is
>
>> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
>
> good?
>
>> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
>
> the
>
>> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
>> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
>
> A/C's.
>
>> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
>> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
>> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
>> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
>
> they
>
>> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
>> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
>
> I'd
>
>> like to see discussed.
>>
>> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
>> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
>
> was
>
>> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
>> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
>> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
>> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
>> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
>
> were
>
>> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
>> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
>> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
>> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
>> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
>
> may
>
>> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
>> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
>
> an
>
>> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
>
> have
>
>> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
>> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
>
> find
>
>> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>>
>> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
>> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
>
> get
>
>> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>>
>> Robert Johnston
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
>> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>>
>>
>>
>>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
>>
>> are
>>
>>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
>>
>> me.
>>
>>> Steve Stelzer
>>
>> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
>> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
>> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>>
>> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
>> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
>> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
>
> energy
>
>> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
>> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
>
> in
>
>> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
>
> energy.
>
>> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
>
> of
>
>> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>>
>> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
>
> (refrigerant)
>
>> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
>
> silica
>
>> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
>> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
>> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
>> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>>
>> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
>
> opportunity
>
>> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
>> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
>> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
>> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
>
> be
>
>> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
>> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
>> the unit works. I like that!
>>
>> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
>> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>>
>> Billy Bell
>> PO Box 926
>> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>>
>> 713-439-1115 Telephone
>> 281-346-0994 Fax
>> wmb@...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Kevin L. Conlin

Hi Robert, I believe that the biggest reason the solar/absorption chillers don t work well with solar is the reason you stated, the high flow rate, plus most

Message 12 of 28
, Sep 1, 2001

Hi Robert, I believe that the biggest reason the solar/absorption chillers
don't work well with solar is the reason you stated, the high flow rate,
plus most solar thermal water heaters are not very efficient in the
temperature range these units need to run efficiently, typically around
boiling, 200 degrees plus. Although evacuated tube absorbers can reach this
range comfortably, they do not work well in Houston because of the
relatively low insolation levels. A large array is required. When I was in
the solar thermal business we did a feasibility to use solar AC at Moody
Gardens. The evacuated tube solar array was huge, as were the insulated
storage tanks, and the system was very expensive. Typically these
absorption units are designed to run on low grade steam left over from
manufacturing. I have seen large industrial systems like you mentioned that
have been running for decades with little maintenance and few problems, so
the technology is sound and proven, just not real compatible with most solar
thermal technologies.

To answer your earlier question, I believe the best prospect for splar AC is
the combination of efficient/traditional/passive solar home design, a
geothermal heat pump with a a ground loop. The reality is that if you build
a good passive solar/energy efficient home with a high SEER AC/heating unit,
your utility bills will be reasonable enough that a solar electric system is
no longer needed, but certainly a lot more practical. A few texas
architects, such as Mac Holder, Pliny Fisk, Laverne Williams and Bob Batho
have mastered the Texas climate with these combinations and their homes use
only a fraction of what your and my home use. As for builders getting it,
forget it! These architects are laying the technical groundwork for future
builders, not today's. As observed earlier, most are too stupid and greedy
to care about the people actually living in their homes. Sorry for the long
reply, but this topic sure has generated some interest. Best Regards,
kevin

> I hadn't noticed the weblinks in my quick read before.
> Adsorption/absorption chillers
> are not new. We have one in the building where I work. They are
efficient
> on an
> industrial scale. I don't know what factors have kept them from scaling
> down to
> home use, but it would be interesting if they could.
>
> Actually, I suppose you could consider this a variant on the dessicant
drier
> tech
> I mentioned, since silica after all is a dessicant.
>
> The Krum link is to Houston; anyone know these people? They appear just
to
> be
> distributors, but maybe they might have some idea of the factors that
limit
> downsizing.
>
> These units are industrial size, of course. Wonder if scaledown is even
> practical.
> These units are 6' x 9' x 9' and the input hot water flow is around 10
cubic
> feet/min.
> That is a little fast for most solar hot water heaters to produce! They
> seem better
> suited to cogeneration in industrial systems that generate heat.
>
> Anybody else have some thoughts on this?
>
> Robert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:50 PM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
>
> Robert:
>
> Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life
a
> little more complicated.
>
> I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water to
> heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
> holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.
>
> I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
> solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you
looked
> at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of
such
> a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
> chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
> problem is that I can't find any residential applications and information
is
> scarce.
>
> Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
> encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is
also
> a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is geothermal
> that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated
water
> through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked with
a
> company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
> cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use their
> machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I
have
> no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has
stopped
> me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air
conditioner
> blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air.
The
> idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick in.
I
> wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size)
and
> have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it pumps.
I
> have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to
cool
> his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
> wells.
>
> Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all benefit
> from sharing our knowledge.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
> Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
>
> > Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff
is
> > hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> > Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of
thermoelectric
> > cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
> >
> > However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> > more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
> area
> > ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other
parts
> of
> > the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> > Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a
closed
> > system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
> >
> > Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
> our
> > area?
> > Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> > are:
> >
> > 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> > commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
> solar
> > units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
> help
> > a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back
in
> > as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
> >
> > 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless
it
> is
> > their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
> good?
> > A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
> the
> > heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He
is
> > death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
> A/C's.
> > But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool
compressed
> > gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've
seen
> > some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is
a
> > lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
> they
> > don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of
installation?
> > What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
> I'd
> > like to see discussed.
> >
> > As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used
to
> > be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
> was
> > managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I
also
> > know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new
warden's
> > homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> > FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> > optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
> were
> > solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> > recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them
about
> > their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> > timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't
know
> > why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
> may
> > have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> > institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
> an
> > unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
> have
> > caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> > units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
> find
> > out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
> >
> > In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> > just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
> get
> > a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
> >
> > Robert Johnston
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
> >
> >
> > > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales.
Who
> > are
> > > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much
for
> > me.
> > >
> > > Steve Stelzer
> >
> > I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> > Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> > concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
> >
> > By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> > time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> > alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
> energy
> > source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> > adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be
used
> in
> > residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
> energy.
> > Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
> of
> > electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
> >
> > The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
> (refrigerant)
> > and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
> silica
> > gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> > dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out
a
> > system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when
it
> > evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
> >
> > There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
> opportunity
> > to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> > When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> > other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> > water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that
could
> be
> > used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> > panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the
harder
> > the unit works. I like that!
> >
> > Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> > http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
> >
> > Billy Bell
> > PO Box 926
> > Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
> >
> > 713-439-1115 Telephone
> > 281-346-0994 Fax
> > wmb@...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Mike Ewert

I think the reason absorption hasn t scaled down well is maintenance. Also, solar absorption works, but you need concentrating collectors which cost more.

Message 13 of 28
, Sep 1, 2001

I think the reason absorption hasn't scaled down well is maintenance. Also,
solar absorption works, but you need concentrating collectors which cost
more. Good flat plate collectors can do it, but it is marginal. Given a
little more engineering development and mass production, I have no doubt
they could compete. But, there is the bootstrap problem of getting to that
point.

I hadn't noticed the weblinks in my quick read before.
Adsorption/absorption chillers
are not new. We have one in the building where I work. They are efficient
on an
industrial scale. I don't know what factors have kept them from scaling
down to
home use, but it would be interesting if they could.

Actually, I suppose you could consider this a variant on the dessicant drier
tech
I mentioned, since silica after all is a dessicant.

The Krum link is to Houston; anyone know these people? They appear just to
be
distributors, but maybe they might have some idea of the factors that limit
downsizing.

These units are industrial size, of course. Wonder if scaledown is even
practical.
These units are 6' x 9' x 9' and the input hot water flow is around 10 cubic
feet/min.
That is a little fast for most solar hot water heaters to produce! They
seem better
suited to cogeneration in industrial systems that generate heat.

Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life a
little more complicated.

I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water to
heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.

I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you looked
at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of such
a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
problem is that I can't find any residential applications and information is
scarce.

Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is also
a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is geothermal
that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated water
through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked with a
company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use their
machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I have
no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has stopped
me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air conditioner
blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air. The
idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick in. I
wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size) and
have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it pumps. I
have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to cool
his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
wells.

Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all benefit
from sharing our knowledge.

> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>
> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
area
> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts
of
> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>
> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
our
> area?
> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
> are:
>
> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
solar
> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
help
> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>
> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it
is
> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
good?
> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
the
> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
A/C's.
> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
they
> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
I'd
> like to see discussed.
>
> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
was
> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
were
> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
may
> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
an
> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
have
> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
find
> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>
> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
get
> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>
>
> > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
> are
> > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
> me.
> >
> > Steve Stelzer
>
> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>
> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
energy
> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
in
> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
energy.
> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
of
> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>
> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
(refrigerant)
> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
silica
> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>
> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
opportunity
> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
be
> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
> the unit works. I like that!
>
> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>
> Billy Bell
> PO Box 926
> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>
> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> 281-346-0994 Fax
> wmb@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:gartht@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:16 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
> Hi,
> I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft. building. My
> circulating pump is from a 15' diameter swimming pool. I installed my
> pipe under a raised garden bed that is filled with plants that like wet
> feet. In the testing we have done on the garden bed water, we seem to
> be washing the heat away. The plans call for the cooling pipe to be
> installed at the 8' level on the walls as well as in the floor.
> Kim
>
> William M. Bell, Jr. wrote:
>
> > Robert:
> >
> > Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes
> life a
> > little more complicated.
> >
> > I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water
> to
> > heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
> > holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.
> >
> > I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
> > solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you
> looked
> > at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of
> such
> > a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
> > chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
> > problem is that I can't find any residential applications and
> information is
> > scarce.
> >
> > Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
> > encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is
> also
> > a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is
> geothermal
> > that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated
> water
> > through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked
> with a
> > company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
> > cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use
> their
> > machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I
> have
> > no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has
> stopped
> > me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air
> conditioner
> > blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air.
> The
> > idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick
> in. I
> > wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size)
> and
> > have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it
> pumps. I
> > have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to
> cool
> > his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
> > wells.
> >
> > Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all
> benefit
> > from sharing our knowledge.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
> > Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
> >
> >
> >
> >> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff
> is
> >> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note
> from
> >> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of
> thermoelectric
> >> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
> >>
> >> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to
> see
> >> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
> >
> > area
> >
> >> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other
> parts
> >
> > of
> >
> >> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> >> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a
> closed
> >> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
> >>
> >> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential
> in
> >
> > our
> >
> >> area?
> >> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation,
> etc.)
> >> are:
> >>
> >> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> >> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
> >
> > solar
> >
> >> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
> >
> > help
> >
> >> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back
> in
> >> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
> >>
> >> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless
> it
> >
> > is
> >
> >> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
> >
> > good?
> >
> >> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor
> in
> >
> > the
> >
> >> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He
> is
> >> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
> >
> > A/C's.
> >
> >> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool
> compressed
> >> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've
> seen
> >> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there
> is a
> >> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
> >
> > they
> >
> >> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of
> installation?
> >> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some
> questions
> >
> > I'd
> >
> >> like to see discussed.
> >>
> >> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used
> to
> >> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess
> it
> >
> > was
> >
> >> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I
> also
> >> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new
> warden's
> >> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> >> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> >> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
> >
> > were
> >
> >> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> >> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them
> about
> >> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> >> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't
> know
> >> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
> >
> > may
> >
> >> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> >> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling
> such
> >
> > an
> >
> >> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
> >
> > have
> >
> >> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> >> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
> >
> > find
> >
> >> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
> >>
> >> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar
> or
> >> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we
> can
> >
> > get
> >
> >> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
> >>
> >> Robert Johnston
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales.
> Who
> >>
> >> are
> >>
> >>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much
> for
> >>
> >> me.
> >>
> >>> Steve Stelzer
> >>
> >> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> >> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> >> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
> >>
> >> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my
> spare
> >> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> >> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
> >
> > energy
> >
> >> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> >> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be
> used
> >
> > in
> >
> >> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
> >
> > energy.
> >
> >> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the
> amount
> >
> > of
> >
> >> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
> >>
> >> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
> >
> > (refrigerant)
> >
> >> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
> >
> > silica
> >
> >> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is
> too
> >> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out
> a
> >> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when
> it
> >> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
> >>
> >> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
> >
> > opportunity
> >
> >> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor
> coolers.
> >> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and
> the
> >> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat
> our
> >> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that
> could
> >
> > be
> >
> >> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> >> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the
> harder
> >> the unit works. I like that!
> >>
> >> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> >> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
> >>
> >> Billy Bell
> >> PO Box 926
> >> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
> >>
> >> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> >> 281-346-0994 Fax
> >> wmb@...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Mike Ewert

Here is a review paper I did a while back on solar AC and heat pumps. ... From: Robert Johnston [mailto:rjohnsto@brazosport.cc.tx.us] Sent: Friday, August 31,

Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).

However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this area
ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts of
the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.

Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in our
area?
Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
are:

1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient solar
units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would help
a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.

2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it is
their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not good?
A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in the
heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight A/C's.
But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because they
don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions I'd
like to see discussed.

As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it was
managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops were
solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it may
have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such an
unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might have
caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could find
out more by asking around, or writing TDC.

In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can get
a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?

I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
concerned that this discussion group stays on target.

By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an energy
source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used in
residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable energy.
Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount of
electricity that is wasted producing this heat.

The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia (refrigerant)
and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and silica
gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.

There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much opportunity
to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could be
used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
the unit works. I like that!

At a tradeshow in Houston a few years ago I met and chatted briefly with LaVerne Williams. I asked his opinion about cool tubes --those buried PVC pipes that

Message 16 of 28
, Sep 5, 2001

At a tradeshow in Houston a few years ago I met and chatted briefly with
LaVerne
Williams. I asked his opinion about "cool tubes"--those buried PVC pipes
that run
for a length underground and allow you to bring outside air into the home
after
letting it cool in indirect contact with the earth. My recollection of his
comment
was that it was an ideal breeding ground for Legionnaire's Disease, and he
wouldn't
recommend it. Since I had seen such a solution recommended for our area in
the
"Earthship" books, his comment made quite an impression on me and left me
wondering
what kind of cooling WOULD work, and that ongoing question is why I started
this
thread.

I'm wondering what kind of cooling Kim has in mind. In particular, I'm
wondering,
If you live in a hot humid area, is ANY kind of cooling based on bringing
cold air
or water into the house WITHOUT also having dehumidificatio built into the
cooling
system setting oneself up for mold, mildew and perhaps Legionnaire's
Disease? e.g.,
suppose you could use water pipes or any other technology to cool the walls
and floor
of your home to a pleasant 70?C and keep it there day and night. While in
West Texas
that would do quite nicely, would it fail miserably in Houston because there
would
be lots of condensation on the walls and floor, with lots of mold and mildew
on and
in the walls? (A vapor barrier would be meaningless if you are not drying
the air
inside).

LaVerne Williams, are you reading this? Did I summarize your comments
accurately?
Would you care to comment on the futility of ANY approaches to cooling a
house here
without simultaneously providing dehumidification? As long as the house
stays near
ambient temperature I would think things would be OK, but the concern is
that you
might cool the house below ambient in a humid environment. Care to comment
on what
appears to be Kim's plan to cool a building with cold water pipes?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:gartht@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:16 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
> Hi,
> I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft. building. My
> circulating pump is from a 15' diameter swimming pool. I installed my
> pipe under a raised garden bed that is filled with plants that like wet
> feet. In the testing we have done on the garden bed water, we seem to
> be washing the heat away. The plans call for the cooling pipe to be
> installed at the 8' level on the walls as well as in the floor.
> Kim
>
> William M. Bell, Jr. wrote:
>
> > Robert:
> >
> > Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes
> life a
> > little more complicated.
> >
> > I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water
> to
> > heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
> > holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.
> >
> > I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
> > solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you
> looked
> > at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of
> such
> > a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
> > chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
> > problem is that I can't find any residential applications and
> information is
> > scarce.
> >
> > Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
> > encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is
> also
> > a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is
> geothermal
> > that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated
> water
> > through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked
> with a
> > company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
> > cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use
> their
> > machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I
> have
> > no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has
> stopped
> > me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air
> conditioner
> > blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air.
> The
> > idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick
> in. I
> > wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size)
> and
> > have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it
> pumps. I
> > have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to
> cool
> > his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
> > wells.
> >
> > Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all
> benefit
> > from sharing our knowledge.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
> > Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
> >
> >
> >
> >> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff
> is
> >> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note
> from
> >> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of
> thermoelectric
> >> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
> >>
> >> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to
> see
> >> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
> >
> > area
> >
> >> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other
> parts
> >
> > of
> >
> >> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> >> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a
> closed
> >> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
> >>
> >> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential
> in
> >
> > our
> >
> >> area?
> >> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation,
> etc.)
> >> are:
> >>
> >> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> >> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
> >
> > solar
> >
> >> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
> >
> > help
> >
> >> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back
> in
> >> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
> >>
> >> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless
> it
> >
> > is
> >
> >> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
> >
> > good?
> >
> >> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor
> in
> >
> > the
> >
> >> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He
> is
> >> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
> >
> > A/C's.
> >
> >> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool
> compressed
> >> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've
> seen
> >> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there
> is a
> >> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
> >
> > they
> >
> >> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of
> installation?
> >> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some
> questions
> >
> > I'd
> >
> >> like to see discussed.
> >>
> >> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used
> to
> >> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess
> it
> >
> > was
> >
> >> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I
> also
> >> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new
> warden's
> >> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> >> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> >> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
> >
> > were
> >
> >> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> >> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them
> about
> >> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> >> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't
> know
> >> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
> >
> > may
> >
> >> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> >> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling
> such
> >
> > an
> >
> >> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
> >
> > have
> >
> >> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> >> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
> >
> > find
> >
> >> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
> >>
> >> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar
> or
> >> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we
> can
> >
> > get
> >
> >> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
> >>
> >> Robert Johnston
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales.
> Who
> >>
> >> are
> >>
> >>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much
> for
> >>
> >> me.
> >>
> >>> Steve Stelzer
> >>
> >> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> >> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> >> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
> >>
> >> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my
> spare
> >> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> >> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
> >
> > energy
> >
> >> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> >> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be
> used
> >
> > in
> >
> >> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
> >
> > energy.
> >
> >> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the
> amount
> >
> > of
> >
> >> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
> >>
> >> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
> >
> > (refrigerant)
> >
> >> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
> >
> > silica
> >
> >> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is
> too
> >> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out
> a
> >> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when
> it
> >> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
> >>
> >> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
> >
> > opportunity
> >
> >> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor
> coolers.
> >> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and
> the
> >> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat
> our
> >> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that
> could
> >
> > be
> >
> >> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> >> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the
> harder
> >> the unit works. I like that!
> >>
> >> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> >> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
> >>
> >> Billy Bell
> >> PO Box 926
> >> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
> >>
> >> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> >> 281-346-0994 Fax
> >> wmb@...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

At a tradeshow in Houston a few years ago I met and chatted briefly with
LaVerne
Williams. I asked his opinion about "cool tubes"--those buried PVC pipes
that run
for a length underground and allow you to bring outside air into the home
after
letting it cool in indirect contact with the earth. My recollection of his
comment
was that it was an ideal breeding ground for Legionnaire's Disease, and he
wouldn't
recommend it. Since I had seen such a solution recommended for our area in
the
"Earthship" books, his comment made quite an impression on me and left me
wondering
what kind of cooling WOULD work, and that ongoing question is why I started
this
thread.

I'm wondering what kind of cooling Kim has in mind. In particular, I'm
wondering,
If you live in a hot humid area, is ANY kind of cooling based on bringing
cold air
or water into the house WITHOUT also having dehumidificatio built into the
cooling
system setting oneself up for mold, mildew and perhaps Legionnaire's
Disease? e.g.,
suppose you could use water pipes or any other technology to cool the walls
and floor
of your home to a pleasant 70?C and keep it there day and night. While in
West Texas
that would do quite nicely, would it fail miserably in Houston because there
would
be lots of condensation on the walls and floor, with lots of mold and mildew
on and
in the walls? (A vapor barrier would be meaningless if you are not drying
the air
inside).

LaVerne Williams, are you reading this? Did I summarize your comments
accurately?
Would you care to comment on the futility of ANY approaches to cooling a
house here
without simultaneously providing dehumidification? As long as the house
stays near
ambient temperature I would think things would be OK, but the concern is
that you
might cool the house below ambient in a humid environment. Care to comment
on what
appears to be Kim's plan to cool a building with cold water pipes?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:gartht@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:16 AM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
> Hi,
> I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft. building. My
> circulating pump is from a 15' diameter swimming pool. I installed my
> pipe under a raised garden bed that is filled with plants that like wet
> feet. In the testing we have done on the garden bed water, we seem to
> be washing the heat away. The plans call for the cooling pipe to be
> installed at the 8' level on the walls as well as in the floor.
> Kim
>
> William M. Bell, Jr. wrote:
>
> > Robert:
> >
> > Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes
> life a
> > little more complicated.
> >
> > I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water
> to
> > heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
> > holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.
> >
> > I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
> > solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you
> looked
> > at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of
> such
> > a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
> > chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
> > problem is that I can't find any residential applications and
> information is
> > scarce.
> >
> > Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
> > encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is
> also
> > a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is
> geothermal
> > that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated
> water
> > through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked
> with a
> > company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
> > cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use
> their
> > machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I
> have
> > no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has
> stopped
> > me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air
> conditioner
> > blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air.
> The
> > idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick
> in. I
> > wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size)
> and
> > have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it
> pumps. I
> > have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to
> cool
> > his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
> > wells.
> >
> > Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all
> benefit
> > from sharing our knowledge.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
> > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
> > Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
> >
> >
> >
> >> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff
> is
> >> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note
> from
> >> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of
> thermoelectric
> >> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
> >>
> >> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to
> see
> >> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
> >
> > area
> >
> >> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other
> parts
> >
> > of
> >
> >> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
> >> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a
> closed
> >> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
> >>
> >> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential
> in
> >
> > our
> >
> >> area?
> >> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation,
> etc.)
> >> are:
> >>
> >> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
> >> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
> >
> > solar
> >
> >> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
> >
> > help
> >
> >> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back
> in
> >> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
> >>
> >> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless
> it
> >
> > is
> >
> >> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
> >
> > good?
> >
> >> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor
> in
> >
> > the
> >
> >> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He
> is
> >> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
> >
> > A/C's.
> >
> >> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool
> compressed
> >> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've
> seen
> >> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there
> is a
> >> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
> >
> > they
> >
> >> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of
> installation?
> >> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some
> questions
> >
> > I'd
> >
> >> like to see discussed.
> >>
> >> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used
> to
> >> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess
> it
> >
> > was
> >
> >> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I
> also
> >> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new
> warden's
> >> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
> >> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
> >> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
> >
> > were
> >
> >> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
> >> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them
> about
> >> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
> >> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't
> know
> >> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
> >
> > may
> >
> >> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
> >> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling
> such
> >
> > an
> >
> >> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
> >
> > have
> >
> >> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
> >> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
> >
> > find
> >
> >> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
> >>
> >> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar
> or
> >> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we
> can
> >
> > get
> >
> >> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
> >>
> >> Robert Johnston
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
> >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales.
> Who
> >>
> >> are
> >>
> >>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much
> for
> >>
> >> me.
> >>
> >>> Steve Stelzer
> >>
> >> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
> >> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
> >> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
> >>
> >> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my
> spare
> >> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
> >> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
> >
> > energy
> >
> >> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
> >> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be
> used
> >
> > in
> >
> >> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
> >
> > energy.
> >
> >> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the
> amount
> >
> > of
> >
> >> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
> >>
> >> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
> >
> > (refrigerant)
> >
> >> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
> >
> > silica
> >
> >> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is
> too
> >> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out
> a
> >> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when
> it
> >> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
> >>
> >> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
> >
> > opportunity
> >
> >> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor
> coolers.
> >> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and
> the
> >> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat
> our
> >> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that
> could
> >
> > be
> >
> >> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
> >> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the
> harder
> >> the unit works. I like that!
> >>
> >> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
> >> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
> >>
> >> Billy Bell
> >> PO Box 926
> >> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
> >>
> >> 713-439-1115 Telephone
> >> 281-346-0994 Fax
> >> wmb@...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Hi, ... I am using hydronics, an idea I got from Roth company on the web. PEX hose set in the floor and on the perimeter walls at the 8 height. Roth is

Message 18 of 28
, Sep 5, 2001

Hi,

> I'm wondering what kind of cooling Kim has in mind.

I am using hydronics, an idea I got from Roth company on the web. PEX
hose set in the floor and on the perimeter walls at the 8' height. Roth
is using such systems commercially and has an extensive web site. At
roth.com I think.

In particular, I'm

> wondering,
> If you live in a hot humid area,

I live 100 miles north-northwest of Houston.

is ANY kind of cooling based on bringing

> cold air
> or water into the house WITHOUT also having dehumidificatio built into the
> cooling
> system setting oneself up for mold, mildew and perhaps Legionnaire's
> Disease? e.g.,
> suppose you could use water pipes or any other technology to cool the walls
> and floor
> of your home to a pleasant 70?C and keep it there day and night.

We may need to bring in a dehumidifier, but I like my home at 50%
humidity. In Canada we used humidifiers to raise it this high.
Anything below this, we find uncomfortable. I am sorry, but I do not
find 70 degrees comfortable. The joy of living in Texas is I never need
to be cool or cold again. We are ranchers and work outside, a
temperature of 76 to 78 is comfortable to us. Our guest room has a
separate control so company can sleep in cooler temperatures. [We are
putting in a well screened sleeping porch for most of the year]

Our closets are 6" deeper than normal to allow air circulation. We do
not use wall to wall carpet, only area rugs. The big trick is to have a
super insulated building with wide porches, good ventilation and never
let it get hot. We first looked at the historical buildings in Texas and
how they kept them cool without electricity. Then we tried to design as
many of those ideas as possible into our buildings so our cooling
demands are not those of a normal tract home.

The temperature difference between the cooling and ambient temperatures
can not be too great, [say over 15 degrees] or you have a real problem.
The water we are using to cool is 65 degrees. The cool water comes in at
the wall, where it has a drip tray built under it, then circulates in
the floor before exiting.

If we ever let it get hot in the building, we would have to use some
window units or something to cool the building or wait a long time to
gradually lower the temperature. We have not built our main house yet,
we are working on our shops and installing all of our ideas there, first.

(A vapor barrier would be meaningless if you are not drying

> the air
> inside).

We do not use vapor barriers as our buildings are fibrous adobe.

>
> LaVerne Williams, are you reading this? Did I summarize your comments
> accurately?
> Would you care to comment on the futility of ANY approaches to cooling a
> house here
> without simultaneously providing dehumidification? As long as the house
> stays near
> ambient temperature I would think things would be OK, but the concern is
> that you
> might cool the house below ambient in a humid environment. Care to comment
> on what
> appears to be Kim's plan to cool a building with cold water pipes?
>
> Robert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Claude Foster [mailto:ccfoster@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 7:51 AM
> To: 'hreg@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>
>
> Kim,
>
> I will do some calculations for you if you will contact me directly.
>
> ccfoster@...
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:gartht@...]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:16 AM
>> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>>
>> Hi,
>> I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft. building. My
>> circulating pump is from a 15' diameter swimming pool. I installed my
>> pipe under a raised garden bed that is filled with plants that like wet
>> feet. In the testing we have done on the garden bed water, we seem to
>> be washing the heat away. The plans call for the cooling pipe to be
>> installed at the 8' level on the walls as well as in the floor.
>> Kim
>>
>> William M. Bell, Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Robert:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes
>>
>> life a
>>
>>> little more complicated.
>>>
>>> I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water
>>
>> to
>>
>>> heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
>>> holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.
>>>
>>> I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
>>> solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you
>>
>> looked
>>
>>> at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of
>>
>> such
>>
>>> a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
>>> chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
>>> problem is that I can't find any residential applications and
>>
>> information is
>>
>>> scarce.
>>>
>>> Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
>>> encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is
>>
>> also
>>
>>> a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is
>>
>> geothermal
>>
>>> that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated
>>
>> water
>>
>>> through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked
>>
>> with a
>>
>>> company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
>>> cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use
>>
>> their
>>
>>> machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I
>>
>> have
>>
>>> no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has
>>
>> stopped
>>
>>> me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air
>>
>> conditioner
>>
>>> blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air.
>>
>> The
>>
>>> idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick
>>
>> in. I
>>
>>> wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size)
>>
>> and
>>
>>> have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it
>>
>> pumps. I
>>
>>> have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to
>>
>> cool
>>
>>> his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
>>> wells.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all
>>
>> benefit
>>
>>> from sharing our knowledge.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
>>> To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
>>> Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff
>>>
>> is
>>
>>>> hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note
>>>
>> from
>>
>>>> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of
>>>
>> thermoelectric
>>
>>>> cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
>>>>
>>>> However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to
>>>
>> see
>>
>>>> more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
>>>
>>> area
>>>
>>>
>>>> ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other
>>>
>> parts
>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
>>>> Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a
>>>
>> closed
>>
>>>> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
>>>>
>>>> Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential
>>>
>> in
>>
>>> our
>>>
>>>
>>>> area?
>>>> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation,
>>>
>> etc.)
>>
>>>> are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
>>>> commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
>>>
>>> solar
>>>
>>>
>>>> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
>>>
>>> help
>>>
>>>
>>>> a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back
>>>
>> in
>>
>>>> as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless
>>>
>> it
>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>
>>>> their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
>>>
>>> good?
>>>
>>>
>>>> A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor
>>>
>> in
>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He
>>>
>> is
>>
>>>> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
>>>
>>> A/C's.
>>>
>>>
>>>> But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool
>>>
>> compressed
>>
>>>> gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've
>>>
>> seen
>>
>>>> some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there
>>>
>> is a
>>
>>>> lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>
>>>> don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of
>>>
>> installation?
>>
>>>> What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some
>>>
>> questions
>>
>>> I'd
>>>
>>>
>>>> like to see discussed.
>>>>
>>>> As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used
>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess
>>>
>> it
>>
>>> was
>>>
>>>
>>>> managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I
>>>
>> also
>>
>>>> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new
>>>
>> warden's
>>
>>>> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
>>>> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
>>>> optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
>>>
>>> were
>>>
>>>
>>>> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
>>>> recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them
>>>
>> about
>>
>>>> their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
>>>> timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't
>>>
>> know
>>
>>>> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
>>>
>>> may
>>>
>>>
>>>> have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
>>>> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling
>>>
>> such
>>
>>> an
>>>
>>>
>>>> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
>>>
>>> have
>>>
>>>
>>>> caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
>>>> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
>>>
>>> find
>>>
>>>
>>>> out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar
>>>
>> or
>>
>>>> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we
>>>
>> can
>>
>>> get
>>>
>>>
>>>> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
>>>>
>>>> Robert Johnston
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
>>>> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales.
>>>>
>> Who
>>
>>>> are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much
>>>>
>> for
>>
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Steve Stelzer
>>>>
>>>> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
>>>> Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
>>>> concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my
>>>
>> spare
>>
>>>> time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
>>>> alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
>>>
>>> energy
>>>
>>>
>>>> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
>>>> adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be
>>>
>> used
>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>
>>>> residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
>>>
>>> energy.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the
>>>
>> amount
>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
>>>>
>>>> The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
>>>
>>> (refrigerant)
>>>
>>>
>>>> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
>>>
>>> silica
>>>
>>>
>>>> gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is
>>>
>> too
>>
>>>> dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out
>>>
>> a
>>
>>>> system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when
>>>
>> it
>>
>>>> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
>>>>
>>>> There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
>>>
>>> opportunity
>>>
>>>
>>>> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor
>>>
>> coolers.
>>
>>>> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and
>>>
>> the
>>
>>>> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat
>>>
>> our
>>
>>>> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that
>>>
>> could
>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>
>>>> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
>>>> panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the
>>>
>> harder
>>
>>>> the unit works. I like that!
>>>>
>>>> Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
>>>> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
>>>>
>>>> Billy Bell
>>>> PO Box 926
>>>> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
>>>>
>>>> 713-439-1115 Telephone
>>>> 281-346-0994 Fax
>>>> wmb@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

LaVerne Williams

Dear Kim & Garth & Robert Johnston: Robert: You have a good memory. I wish I could comment in detail but my current commitments are not leaving me much free

Message 19 of 28
, Sep 5, 2001

Dear Kim & Garth & Robert Johnston:

Robert: You have a good memory. I wish I could
comment in detail but my current commitments are not leaving me much free time
at all, but Kim is not talking about a "cool tube" concept, which would be a
disaster health wise in probably most of Texas. I think he is describing a
system that is similar to a system being promoted from Dallas that has piping
(metal. I think) that runs around a room with troughs below to catch the
condensate to drain it. I believe the McDermott Engineering building in
West Houston used the system for a while but I believe they abandoned it.

Being only 100 miles from Houston, Kim & Garth, I wouldn't
recommend such a system here or even in dessert areas. They are having
terrific mold problems in desert area homes. I am not sure why
because I am not currently working on any projects in such areas, but it
may be a combination of tight homes and the use of "swamp type coolers".
Or it just may be tight homes with conventional HVAC systems and poor
construction not having a drainage plane or oversized cooling systems. Of
course, compared to conditions that are set up to have mold growth in dessert
areas means horrendous blossoming of mold growth in the humid Gulf Coast and
Central Texas areas.

Anyway, mold will eventually form in the trough and if you
could see what I am experiencing with people who have come to me because of
very serious health problems they are having from mold in their houses,
you would do everything possible to prevent mold from forming. (I'm working
with a couple right now who decided to design and build their own house and now
his wife has had around 17 strokes in her brain (MRI confirmed) primarily
because of what mold (and formaldehyde in common building
materials) can do. They also have twins who are 5 years old who
have only developed to that of 2 year olds, and one of them is not showing any
signs of recovery. I am helping them create a safe haven until we
can do something more permanent for them). I also have an Industrial
Hygienist friend who is involved as an expert witness in over 1500 lawsuits
because of mold growth and health problems with houses and buildings. From
what he has seen, the litigation concerning mold in buildings will dwarf what
happened with asbestos in buildings

Hope this helps.

To Everyone:Molds kill. Do everything
you can to make your home mold free!!! It is not something to take
lightly. Anytime and any place the relative humidity inside a home
goes over 60% RH, mold grows! (Aim for 50% RH or less year-round)
This woman was in such perfect health before they built their home 7 years ago
that she worked out 2 hours a day! Now she can barely care for herself and
her twins. They have had to abandon their house.

Robert: You have a good memory. I wish I could
comment in detail but my current commitments are not leaving me much free time
at all, but Kim is not talking about a "cool tube" concept, which would be a
disaster health wise in probably most of Texas. I think he is describing
a system that is similar to a system being promoted from Dallas that has
piping (metal. I think) that runs around a room with troughs below to catch
the condensate to drain it. I believe the McDermott Engineering building
in West Houston used the system for a while but I believe they abandoned it.

Being only 100 miles from Houston, Kim & Garth, I
wouldn't recommend such a system here or even in dessert areas. They are
having terrific mold problems in desert area homes. I am not sure why
because I am not currently working on any projects in such areas, but it
may be a combination of tight homes and the use of "swamp type coolers".
Or it just may be tight homes with conventional HVAC systems and poor
construction not having a drainage plane or oversized cooling systems.
Of course, compared to conditions that are set up to have mold growth in
dessert areas means horrendous blossoming of mold growth in the humid Gulf
Coast and Central Texas areas.

Anyway, mold will eventually form in the trough and if you
could see what I am experiencing with people who have come to me because
of very serious health problems they are having from mold in their houses,
you would do everything possible to prevent mold from forming. (I'm
working with a couple right now who decided to design and build their own
house and now his wife has had around 17 strokes in her brain (MRI confirmed)
primarily because of what mold (and formaldehyde in common building
materials) can do. They also have twins who are 5 years old
who have only developed to that of 2 year olds, and one of them is not showing
any signs of recovery. I am helping them create a safe haven until
we can do something more permanent for them). I also have an Industrial
Hygienist friend who is involved as an expert witness in over 1500 lawsuits
because of mold growth and health problems with houses and buildings.
From what he has seen, the litigation concerning mold in buildings will dwarf
what happened with asbestos in buildings

Hope this helps.

To Everyone:Molds kill. Do everything
you can to make your home mold free!!! It is not something to take
lightly. Anytime and any place the relative humidity inside a
home goes over 60% RH, mold grows! (Aim for 50% RH or less
year-round) This woman was in such perfect health before they built
their home 7 years ago that she worked out 2 hours a day! Now she can
barely care for herself and her twins. They have had to abandon their
house.

> Hi,> >
> > > > I'm wondering what kind of cooling Kim
has in mind.> > I am using hydronics, an idea I got from Roth
company on the web. PEX > hose set in the floor and on the
perimeter walls at the 8' height. Roth > is using such systems
commercially and has an extensive web site. At > roth.com I
think.> > In particular, I'm> >
wondering,> > If you live in a hot humid area, > > I
live 100 miles north-northwest of Houston.> > is ANY kind of
cooling based on bringing> > cold air> > or water into the
house WITHOUT also having dehumidificatio built into the> >
cooling> > system setting oneself up for mold, mildew and perhaps
Legionnaire's> > Disease? e.g.,> > suppose you could
use water pipes or any other technology to cool the walls> > and
floor> > of your home to a pleasant 70?C and keep it there day and
night. > > We may need to bring in a dehumidifier, but I
like my home at 50% > humidity. In Canada we used humidifiers to
raise it this high. > Anything below this, we find uncomfortable.
I am sorry, but I do not > find 70 degrees comfortable. The joy
of living in Texas is I never need > to be cool or cold again. We
are ranchers and work outside, a > temperature of 76 to 78 is
comfortable to us. Our guest room has a > separate control so
company can sleep in cooler temperatures. [We are > putting in a
well screened sleeping porch for most of the year]> > Our
closets are 6" deeper than normal to allow air circulation. We do > not
use wall to wall carpet, only area rugs. The big trick is to have a >
super insulated building with wide porches, good ventilation and never
> let it get hot. We first looked at the historical buildings in Texas
and > how they kept them cool without electricity. Then we tried
to design as > many of those ideas as possible into our buildings so
our cooling > demands are not those of a normal tract home.>
> The temperature difference between the cooling and ambient
temperatures > can not be too great, [say over 15 degrees] or you have
a real problem. > The water we are using to cool is 65 degrees. The
cool water comes in at > the wall, where it has a drip tray built under
it, then circulates in > the floor before exiting.> > If
we ever let it get hot in the building, we would have to use some >
window units or something to cool the building or wait a long time to >
gradually lower the temperature. We have not built our main house yet,
> we are working on our shops and installing all of our ideas there,
first.> > > (A vapor barrier would be meaningless
if you are not drying> > the air> > inside).>
> We do not use vapor barriers as our buildings are fibrous
adobe.> > > > > LaVerne Williams, are you reading
this? Did I summarize your comments> > accurately?>
> Would you care to comment on the futility of ANY approaches to cooling
a> > house here> > without simultaneously providing
dehumidification? As long as the house> > stays near>
> ambient temperature I would think things would be OK, but the concern
is> > that you> > might cool the house below ambient in a
humid environment. Care to comment> > on what> >
appears to be Kim's plan to cool a building with cold water pipes?>
> > > Robert> > > > -----Original
Message-----> > From: Claude Foster
[mailto:ccfoster@...]> > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001
7:51 AM> > To: 'hreg@yahoogroups.com'> > Subject:
RE: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners> > > > > >
Kim,> > > > I will do some calculations for you if you
will contact me directly.> > > > ccfoster@...> > > >
> > > > > >> -----Original
Message-----> >> From: Kim & Garth Travis
[SMTP:gartht@...]> >> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001
7:16 AM> >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com> >> Subject:
Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners> >> > >>
Hi,> >> I am planning using cooled water to cool a 1000 sq. ft.
building. My> >> circulating pump is from a 15' diameter
swimming pool. I installed my> >> pipe under a raised
garden bed that is filled with plants that like wet> >>
feet. In the testing we have done on the garden bed water, we seem
to> >> be washing the heat away. The plans call for the
cooling pipe to be> >> installed at the 8' level on the walls as
well as in the floor.> >> Kim> >> > >>
William M. Bell, Jr. wrote:> >> > >> >
>>> Robert:> >>> > >>> Thanks for the
interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes> >>
> >> life a> >> > >>> little more
complicated.> >>> > >>> I "designed" a system
that used chilled water to cool and heated water> >> >
>> to> >> > >>> heat. The main problem was
that it required a rather large, insulated> >>> holding tank.
I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.> >>> >
>>> I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It
uses> >>> solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the
silica gel. If you> >> > >> looked> >>
> >>> at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial
application of> >> > >> such> >>
> >>> a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no
corrosive> >>> chemicals; no excessive pressures or
temperatures; and simple. The only> >>> problem is that I
can't find any residential applications and> >> > >>
information is> >> > >>> scarce.>
>>> > >>> Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The
main problem that I have> >>> encountered is that it is
expensive to drill several wells and there is> >> >
>> also> >> > >>> a fear that you could
contaminate your drinking water. That is> >> > >>
geothermal> >> > >>> that uses water wells. I
have also heard of geothermal that circulated> >> >
>> water> >> > >>> through pipes located
10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked> >> >
>> with a> >> > >>> company that uses
directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic> >>>
cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use>
>> > >> their> >> > >>>
machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I>
>> > >> have> >> > >>> no idea
how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has> >>
> >> stopped> >> > >>> me once
again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air> >>
> >> conditioner> >> > >>> blower,
before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air.>
>> > >> The> >> > >>> idea was
that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick> >>
> >> in. I> >> > >>> wanted to find
a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size)> >>
> >> and> >> > >>> have it run by a
solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it> >> >
>> pumps. I> >> > >>> have a friend in Lake
Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to> >> >
>> cool> >> > >>> his house. It worked OK
for a while, but then he had problems with his> >>>
wells.> >>> > >>> Anyway, I think that this is
an interesting area and we would all> >> > >>
benefit> >> > >>> from sharing our
knowledge.> >>> > >>> ----- Original Message
-----> >>> From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>>
>>> To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>> >>>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM> >>> Subject: [hreg]
Solar Air Conditioners> >>> > >>> >
>>> > >>> > >>>> Between the
Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff>
>>> > >> is> >> > >>>>
hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this
note> >>> > >> from> >> >
>>>> Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies
of> >>> > >> thermoelectric> >>
> >>>> cooling (especially if tied to a solar
cell!).> >>>> > >>>> However, it is an
extremely interesting question and one I'd love to> >>>
> >> see> >> > >>>> more
discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to
this> >>> > >>> area> >>>
> >>> > >>>> ever achieving the kind of
renewable energy freedom that some other> >>> >
>> parts> >> > >>> of> >>>
> >>> > >>>> the country can do. The
use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in> >>>> Arizona
but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a>
>>> > >> closed> >> >
>>>> system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient
A/C.> >>>> > >>>> Anybody want to
comment on what they think has the greatest potential> >>>
> >> in> >> > >>> our>
>>> > >>> > >>>> area?>
>>>> Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans,
insulation,> >>> > >> etc.)> >>
> >>>> are:> >>>> >
>>>> 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired
units are now used for> >>>> commercial buildings in some
locations. I don't know if any efficient> >>> >
>>> solar> >>> > >>> >
>>>> units have been designed. But if you could dry out the
air, that would> >>> > >>> help>
>>> > >>> > >>>> a lot. And
then you might even be able to put a little cool water back>
>>> > >> in> >> > >>>>
as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.> >>>> >
>>>> 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these
haven't taken off, unless> >>> > >> it>
>> > >>> is> >>> > >>>
> >>>> their installation expense. Why are they so
expensive? Are they not> >>> > >>>
good?> >>> > >>> > >>>> A
local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor>
>>> > >> in> >> > >>>
the> >>> > >>> > >>>> heat
pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true.
He> >>> > >> is> >> >
>>>> death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers
straight> >>> > >>> A/C's.>
>>> > >>> > >>>> But there is
still something appealing to me of trying to cool> >>>
> >> compressed> >> > >>>> gas
with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've>
>>> > >> seen> >> > >>>>
some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there>
>>> > >> is a> >> > >>>>
lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it
because> >>> > >>> they> >>>
> >>> > >>>> don't work that well in
practice, or is it just the cost of> >>> > >>
installation?> >> > >>>> What is the payback
period in this area, then? These are some> >>> >
>> questions> >> > >>> I'd>
>>> > >>> > >>>> like to see
discussed.> >>>> > >>>> As far as
ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used>
>>> > >> to> >> > >>>>
be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess>
>>> > >> it> >> > >>>
was> >>> > >>> > >>>>
managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience).
I> >>> > >> also> >> >
>>>> know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of
new> >>> > >> warden's> >> >
>>>> homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner
of> >>>> FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a
duplex unit. The houses have> >>>> optimally sloping
roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops> >>>
> >>> were> >>> > >>> >
>>>> solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water
too--I don't> >>>> recall--but I remember reading in the
newspaper when they built them> >>> > >>
about> >> > >>>> their ammonia cooling
systems. This would have been around 1981-85> >>>>
timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I
don't> >>> > >> know> >> >
>>>> why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with
them--e.g., it> >>> > >>> may>
>>> > >>> > >>>> have been
environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state>
>>>> institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for
handling> >>> > >> such> >> >
>>> an> >>> > >>> >
>>>> unusual system that was different than all the other onsite
A/C's might> >>> > >>> have>
>>> > >>> > >>>> caused rethinking
of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the>
>>>> units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I
assume you could> >>> > >>> find>
>>> > >>> > >>>> out more by
asking around, or writing TDC.> >>>> >
>>>> In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject
of solar> >>> > >> or> >> >
>>>> just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we
see if we> >>> > >> can> >> >
>>> get> >>> > >>> >
>>>> a discussion going on this subject and enlighten
ourselves?> >>>> > >>>> Robert
Johnston> >>>> > >>>> -----Original
Message-----> >>>> From: William M. Bell, Jr.
[mailto:wmb@...]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August
29, 2001 9:23 AM> >>>> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com> >>>>
Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281> >>>> >
>>>> > >>>> > >>>> >
>>>>> Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and
the whales.> >>>> > >> Who> >>
> >>>> are> >>>> >
>>>> > >>>>> they from? tpwc---ENVIRO
ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much>
>>>> > >> for> >> >
>>>> me.> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>>> Steve Stelzer> >>>> >
>>>> I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a
renewable? Just> >>>> Kidding ; ) Although I
appreciate information of this sort, I am more> >>>>
concerned that this discussion group stays on target.> >>>>
> >>>> By the way, I have been doing a great deal of
looking around in my> >>> > >> spare>
>> > >>>> time (which is not much) at solar air
conditioners. There a number of> >>>> alternatives out
there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an> >>>
> >>> energy> >>> > >>>
> >>>> source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a
process called> >>>> adsorption. An efficient, economical
solar a/c system, that could be> >>> > >>
used> >> > >>> in> >>> >
>>> > >>>> residential cooling would be an
important contribution to renewable> >>> > >>>
energy.> >>> > >>> > >>>>
Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the>
>>> > >> amount> >> > >>>
of> >>> > >>> > >>>>
electricity that is wasted producing this heat.> >>>>
> >>>> The adsorption units that I have looked at use
either ammonia> >>> > >>>
(refrigerant)> >>> > >>> >
>>>> and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or
water and> >>> > >>> silica>
>>> > >>> > >>>> gel. The water
and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is> >>>
> >> too> >> > >>>> dangerous to
have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out>
>>> > >> a> >> > >>>>
system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and
when> >>> > >> it> >> >
>>>> evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.>
>>>> > >>>> There is also a solid state
alternative that I have not had much> >>> >
>>> opportunity> >>> > >>> >
>>>> to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small
outdoor> >>> > >> coolers.> >>
> >>>> When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one
side gets hot and> >>> > >> the> >>
> >>>> other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot
side to pre-heat> >>> > >> our> >>
> >>>> water to the hot water heater and the cold side to
chill water that> >>> > >> could> >>
> >>> be> >>> > >>> >
>>>> used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached
to solar> >>>> panels that produce the 12V current. The
hotter it is outside, the> >>> > >>
harder> >> > >>>> the unit works. I like
that!> >>>> > >>>> Some helpful web
sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm> >>>> http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/>
>>>> > >>>> Billy Bell> >>>>
PO Box 926> >>>> Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926>
>>>> > >>>> 713-439-1115 Telephone>
>>>> 281-346-0994 Fax> >>>> wmb@...> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> > >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups
is subject to> >>> > >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>> > >>>> > >>>> >
>>>> > >>>> > >>>> >
>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Your use
of Yahoo! Groups is subject to> >>> > >>
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> > >>> >
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to> >> >
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
---------------------~-->> FREE COLLEGE MONEY> CLICK HERE to
search> 600,000 scholarships!> http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/xbTolB/TM>
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>

It took me awhile to find time to read the paper; thanks for sharing it! Here are a few comments/questions... 1. (Comment--anyone else reading this paper in

Message 21 of 28
, Sep 5, 2001

It took me awhile to find time to read the paper; thanks for sharing it!
Here are a few comments/questions...

1. (Comment--anyone else reading this paper in MS Word should note that in
p. 2 there is a formatting glitch [at least in my installation of Word 2000]
that makes the text jump from near the top of the first column to the top of
the 2nd column, and then continue on the 1st column after a paragraph. If
you have trouble making sense of that section, maybe this document did the
same thing on your system as it did on mine).

2. Mike, given the low efficiencies and high costs of PV, it seems
inefficient and costly to do the schemes that use PV to drive vapor
compression heat pumps. Yet that is what you spent much of the paper
describing. I assume this is because that is what NASA sees as most suited
to space (especially where cost doesn't matter). But for terrestrial
applications, doesn't your review suggest that solar thermal heat engines
would be the better way to go? If so, why not more work in that area (or
did you just not choose to focus on it in your review)? (You did mention an
interesting study in Sacramento, CA (Bergquam, et al, 1997)--any updates on
the second phase of that study using evacuated tube solar collectors)?
Seems to me that with metallized plastics, one could readily make a low cost
trough concentrator. Not true?

3. We've discussed this briefly in the past (I lost all my email due to
computer glitch, so forgive me if I repeat earlier questions), but after
your lab tour a couple years ago, I was wondering what the barriers to
efficient vacuum insulation were, and you mentioned they were hard to
fabricate. I've been wondering, what if you had a dynamic system? E.g.,
what if your house insulation were cheaper vacuum panels that may have
pinhole leaks but which are actively pumped by a vacuum pump to maintain
insulation? The vacuum could be removed if it were desirable for heat
transfer purposes to remove the insulation (e.g., maybe at night you'd
remove it in the spring and fall to allow cooling of the home interior, or
maybe on sunny mild winter days you'd remove it to allow heat into the
house). Then it could be reapplied if needed for insulation again.
Probably crazy idea, but what do you think? I suspect your answer will be
that to effectively insulate, you have to get a SUPER vacuum so it isn't
practical to do this, e.g., would require a two stage vaccuum pump and long
pumping times, but thought I'd ask. Do you happen to have a good reference
for vacuum pressure vs. insulation ability (R value or something)? What is
the vacuum pressure in your test refrigerator vacuum panels in the lab?

4. Why haven't solar regenerated dessicant systems found more use? Why
couldn't you combine that kind of trying with some of the techniques like
cool water tubes (see separate discussion with Kim, LaVerne Williams) to
have dry cool air/thermal mass?

5. I was curious about this conclusion: "Engineering trade-off studies
have shown that with current technology, vapor compression heat pumps have a
distinct mass advantage over thermally driven heat pumps for human
spacecraft and planetary base cooling (Ewert, 1993) (Swanson, 1993). The
thermal heat pumps have lower coefficients of performance and thus need to
reject a large amount of relatively low temperature waste heat. In space
there is no atmospheric heat sink and heat rejection must be via thermal
radiation. This means larger, heavier radiators for the thermal control
system, leading to higher launch-to-orbit costs." While true in space, is
it true for planetary base cooling? Why couldn't you use the planetary soil
to build radiators? For example, what if you pulverized it to a powder,
mixed it with a binder, and molded it? A relatively small mass of binder
would enable large mass of radiator. Or, maybe just use the planet surface
as a heat sink (perhaps after shielding it with aluminized film), with fluid
circulating in pipes buried beneath the surface. Just wondering; seemed
like the planet itself was an untapped resource...

6. Elastomers/rubber undergo heating/cooling during stretching/retraction.
I've seen proposals (I think even funded by NBS) to use elastomers as
refrigerants in heat pumps, replacing the gas with an elastomer undergoing
cyclic mechanical deformation. Right now I can't see how that would
necessarily help you in solar, but just curious if you'd run across it in
your reading.

Robert: Now you have a little more about why the insurance industry is trying to take mold coverage out of our insurance policies. The insurance companies are

Message 22 of 28
, Sep 6, 2001

Robert:

Now you have a little more about why the insurance industry is
trying to take mold coverage out of our insurance policies. The
insurance companies are who the attorneys are going after. Listen to Tom
Tynon on KTRH Radio, AM740.

Robert: You have a good memory. I wish I could
comment in detail but my current commitments are not leaving me much free
time at all, but Kim is not talking about a "cool tube" concept, which would
be a disaster health wise in probably most of Texas. I think he is
describing a system that is similar to a system being promoted from Dallas
that has piping (metal. I think) that runs around a room with troughs below
to catch the condensate to drain it. I believe the McDermott
Engineering building in West Houston used the system for a while but I
believe they abandoned it.

Being only 100 miles from Houston, Kim & Garth, I
wouldn't recommend such a system here or even in dessert areas. They
are having terrific mold problems in desert area homes. I am not sure
why because I am not currently working on any projects in such areas,
but it may be a combination of tight homes and the use of "swamp type
coolers". Or it just may be tight homes with conventional HVAC systems
and poor construction not having a drainage plane or oversized cooling
systems. Of course, compared to conditions that are set up to have
mold growth in dessert areas means horrendous blossoming of mold growth in
the humid Gulf Coast and Central Texas areas.

Anyway, mold will eventually form in the trough and if you
could see what I am experiencing with people who have come to me
because of very serious health problems they are having from mold in their
houses, you would do everything possible to prevent mold from forming.
(I'm working with a couple right now who decided to design and build their
own house and now his wife has had around 17 strokes in her brain (MRI
confirmed) primarily because of what mold (and formaldehyde in common
building materials) can do. They also have twins who are 5
years old who have only developed to that of 2 year olds, and one of them is
not showing any signs of recovery. I am helping them create a
safe haven until we can do something more permanent for them). I also
have an Industrial Hygienist friend who is involved as an expert witness in
over 1500 lawsuits because of mold growth and health problems with houses
and buildings. From what he has seen, the litigation concerning mold
in buildings will dwarf what happened with asbestos in
buildings

Hope this helps.

To Everyone:Molds kill. Do
everything you can to make your home mold free!!! It is not something
to take lightly. Anytime and any place the relative humidity
inside a home goes over 60% RH, mold grows! (Aim for 50% RH or less
year-round) This woman was in such perfect health before they built
their home 7 years ago that she worked out 2 hours a day! Now she can
barely care for herself and her twins. They have had to abandon their
house.

I could see how they might sue the insurance companies for repair or even replacement costs, but it seems difficult to imagine how they could pin the insurance

Message 23 of 28
, Sep 6, 2001

I
could see how they might sue the insurance companies for repair or even
replacement costs, but it seems difficult to imagine how they could pin the
insurance companies with the any punitive damages. If this is true, then
the overall liability to the insurance companies wouldn't be astronomical.
But I'm no lawyer. They do some amazing things, especially in Texas.
It is a wonder sometimes that there are any companies left selling
anything! Maybe eventually everyone will build everything themselves and
have only themselves to blame for failure. I don't know what lawyers would
do for a living then. Probably sue parents on behalf of children upset
that they were born into such a miserable world. :-)

Now you have a little more about why the insurance industry
is trying to take mold coverage out of our insurance policies. The
insurance companies are who the attorneys are going after. Listen to Tom
Tynon on KTRH Radio, AM740.

Robert: You have a good memory. I wish I
could comment in detail but my current commitments are not leaving me much
free time at all, but Kim is not talking about a "cool tube" concept,
which would be a disaster health wise in probably most of Texas. I
think he is describing a system that is similar to a system being promoted
from Dallas that has piping (metal. I think) that runs around a room with
troughs below to catch the condensate to drain it. I believe the
McDermott Engineering building in West Houston used the system for a while
but I believe they abandoned it.

Being only 100 miles from Houston, Kim & Garth, I
wouldn't recommend such a system here or even in dessert areas. They
are having terrific mold problems in desert area homes. I am not
sure why because I am not currently working on any projects in such
areas, but it may be a combination of tight homes and the use of "swamp
type coolers". Or it just may be tight homes with conventional HVAC
systems and poor construction not having a drainage plane or oversized
cooling systems. Of course, compared to conditions that are set up
to have mold growth in dessert areas means horrendous blossoming of mold
growth in the humid Gulf Coast and Central Texas areas.

Anyway, mold will eventually form in the trough and if
you could see what I am experiencing with people who have come to me
because of very serious health problems they are having from mold in their
houses, you would do everything possible to prevent mold from
forming. (I'm working with a couple right now who decided to design and
build their own house and now his wife has had around 17 strokes in her
brain (MRI confirmed) primarily because of what mold (and
formaldehyde in common building materials) can do. They
also have twins who are 5 years old who have only developed to that of 2
year olds, and one of them is not showing any signs of
recovery. I am helping them create a safe haven until we can
do something more permanent for them). I also have an Industrial
Hygienist friend who is involved as an expert witness in over 1500
lawsuits because of mold growth and health problems with houses and
buildings. From what he has seen, the litigation concerning mold in
buildings will dwarf what happened with asbestos in buildings

Hope this helps.

To Everyone:Molds kill. Do
everything you can to make your home mold free!!! It is not
something to take lightly. Anytime and any place the relative
humidity inside a home goes over 60% RH, mold grows! (Aim for 50% RH
or less year-round) This woman was in such perfect health before
they built their home 7 years ago that she worked out 2 hours a day!
Now she can barely care for herself and her twins. They have had to
abandon their house.

Robert, I hope I can answer all your questions. They are good ones. You re an inventor at heart, aren t you? 2. The conclusion I drew is that, although PV

Message 24 of 28
, Sep 8, 2001

Robert, I hope I can answer all your questions. They are good ones. You're
an inventor at heart, aren't you?

2. The conclusion I drew is that, although PV efficiency is low,
refrigeration cycle efficiency is low for the thermal cycles, so the net
"solar coefficient of performance" is similar for the 2 types of systems.
Given that vapor compression and absorption heat pumps and solar thermal
collectors are all more mature than PV, I expect the most progress in PV
vapor compression refrigeration systems in the next 10 years.

I have not followed up on Bergquam.

3. Vacuum pumps take quite a bit of power. I suspect that is why they have
only been used for cryogenic insulation systems. I have a reference for
pressure vs. thermal resistance but I'll have to look for it at work.

4. Cost, I guess. I think there is hope.

5. Planetary soil (regolith) is a very good insulator. I suppose some day
we may make things out of it, but I'm not sure if it will ever make good
radiators.

6. Yes, we have had some "rubber band" cooling system proposals. I don't
think we have funded any. It just didn't seem practical how many bands you
would have to have to provide significant cooling.

It took me awhile to find time to read the paper; thanks for sharing it!
Here are a few comments/questions...

1. (Comment--anyone else reading this paper in MS Word should note that in
p. 2 there is a formatting glitch [at least in my installation of Word 2000]
that makes the text jump from near the top of the first column to the top of
the 2nd column, and then continue on the 1st column after a paragraph. If
you have trouble making sense of that section, maybe this document did the
same thing on your system as it did on mine).

2. Mike, given the low efficiencies and high costs of PV, it seems
inefficient and costly to do the schemes that use PV to drive vapor
compression heat pumps. Yet that is what you spent much of the paper
describing. I assume this is because that is what NASA sees as most suited
to space (especially where cost doesn't matter). But for terrestrial
applications, doesn't your review suggest that solar thermal heat engines
would be the better way to go? If so, why not more work in that area (or
did you just not choose to focus on it in your review)? (You did mention an
interesting study in Sacramento, CA (Bergquam, et al, 1997)--any updates on
the second phase of that study using evacuated tube solar collectors)?
Seems to me that with metallized plastics, one could readily make a low cost
trough concentrator. Not true?

3. We've discussed this briefly in the past (I lost all my email due to
computer glitch, so forgive me if I repeat earlier questions), but after
your lab tour a couple years ago, I was wondering what the barriers to
efficient vacuum insulation were, and you mentioned they were hard to
fabricate. I've been wondering, what if you had a dynamic system? E.g.,
what if your house insulation were cheaper vacuum panels that may have
pinhole leaks but which are actively pumped by a vacuum pump to maintain
insulation? The vacuum could be removed if it were desirable for heat
transfer purposes to remove the insulation (e.g., maybe at night you'd
remove it in the spring and fall to allow cooling of the home interior, or
maybe on sunny mild winter days you'd remove it to allow heat into the
house). Then it could be reapplied if needed for insulation again.
Probably crazy idea, but what do you think? I suspect your answer will be
that to effectively insulate, you have to get a SUPER vacuum so it isn't
practical to do this, e.g., would require a two stage vaccuum pump and long
pumping times, but thought I'd ask. Do you happen to have a good reference
for vacuum pressure vs. insulation ability (R value or something)? What is
the vacuum pressure in your test refrigerator vacuum panels in the lab?

4. Why haven't solar regenerated dessicant systems found more use? Why
couldn't you combine that kind of trying with some of the techniques like
cool water tubes (see separate discussion with Kim, LaVerne Williams) to
have dry cool air/thermal mass?

5. I was curious about this conclusion: "Engineering trade-off studies
have shown that with current technology, vapor compression heat pumps have a
distinct mass advantage over thermally driven heat pumps for human
spacecraft and planetary base cooling (Ewert, 1993) (Swanson, 1993). The
thermal heat pumps have lower coefficients of performance and thus need to
reject a large amount of relatively low temperature waste heat. In space
there is no atmospheric heat sink and heat rejection must be via thermal
radiation. This means larger, heavier radiators for the thermal control
system, leading to higher launch-to-orbit costs." While true in space, is
it true for planetary base cooling? Why couldn't you use the planetary soil
to build radiators? For example, what if you pulverized it to a powder,
mixed it with a binder, and molded it? A relatively small mass of binder
would enable large mass of radiator. Or, maybe just use the planet surface
as a heat sink (perhaps after shielding it with aluminized film), with fluid
circulating in pipes buried beneath the surface. Just wondering; seemed
like the planet itself was an untapped resource...

6. Elastomers/rubber undergo heating/cooling during stretching/retraction.
I've seen proposals (I think even funded by NBS) to use elastomers as
refrigerants in heat pumps, replacing the gas with an elastomer undergoing
cyclic mechanical deformation. Right now I can't see how that would
necessarily help you in solar, but just curious if you'd run across it in
your reading.

Thanks, Mike. Regarding your responses to the numbered points: 2. Good point. I hear so much more about PV, though (I think it is more

Message 25 of 28
, Sep 9, 2001

Thanks, Mike.

Regarding your responses to the numbered points:

2. Good point. I hear so much more about PV, though (I think it is more
"clean"/"elegant"/"sexy" than thermal technologies), that I wonder if the
thermal arena doesn't still have some significant untapped potential. In
particular, with new materials invented constantly, I should think this
could continue to be developed.

3. If you get a chance, I'd be curious to know the curve. Actually, I
should look it up in my CRC Handbook. I wouldn't be surprised if it is
in there.

4. Sometime I'll have to root around and see what has been done here since
the last I read about it. I think there is some potential here. What I
like
is that it could be readily supplemented by gas or wood burning, so one
could
still get by even off-grid on overcast/rainy days.

5. It is a good INSULATOR? Really! I would have thought it to be a
conductor.
I thought those moon rocks were high in iron and other metals. Is planetary
soil a lot different than moonrocks? I assume we're talking about Mars.
Of course, upon reflection, I suppose that for a material to be a good
radiator on a planet you're really talking about black body radiation rather
than conduction of heat to the atmosphere. That's different than on earth.
Is the atmospheric pressure on Mars lower than on earth?

6. The one I know of was a consortium that included a pretty major
professor
in rubber elasticity theory at the Univ. of Cincinnati, Prof. James Mark.
You
wouldn't of course use rubber banks as in the bands you buy at the office
supply store. More likely you'd use just a handful of very large bands.
The
key is to minimize hysteretic losses, so perfect endlinked networks are
preferred,
which is why J. Mark was involved, since he is an expert on endlinked
polysiloxane
networks.

Robert, I hope I can answer all your questions. They are good ones. You're
an inventor at heart, aren't you?

2. The conclusion I drew is that, although PV efficiency is low,
refrigeration cycle efficiency is low for the thermal cycles, so the net
"solar coefficient of performance" is similar for the 2 types of systems.
Given that vapor compression and absorption heat pumps and solar thermal
collectors are all more mature than PV, I expect the most progress in PV
vapor compression refrigeration systems in the next 10 years.

I have not followed up on Bergquam.

3. Vacuum pumps take quite a bit of power. I suspect that is why they have
only been used for cryogenic insulation systems. I have a reference for
pressure vs. thermal resistance but I'll have to look for it at work.

4. Cost, I guess. I think there is hope.

5. Planetary soil (regolith) is a very good insulator. I suppose some day
we may make things out of it, but I'm not sure if it will ever make good
radiators.

6. Yes, we have had some "rubber band" cooling system proposals. I don't
think we have funded any. It just didn't seem practical how many bands you
would have to have to provide significant cooling.

It took me awhile to find time to read the paper; thanks for sharing it!
Here are a few comments/questions...

1. (Comment--anyone else reading this paper in MS Word should note that in
p. 2 there is a formatting glitch [at least in my installation of Word 2000]
that makes the text jump from near the top of the first column to the top of
the 2nd column, and then continue on the 1st column after a paragraph. If
you have trouble making sense of that section, maybe this document did the
same thing on your system as it did on mine).

2. Mike, given the low efficiencies and high costs of PV, it seems
inefficient and costly to do the schemes that use PV to drive vapor
compression heat pumps. Yet that is what you spent much of the paper
describing. I assume this is because that is what NASA sees as most suited
to space (especially where cost doesn't matter). But for terrestrial
applications, doesn't your review suggest that solar thermal heat engines
would be the better way to go? If so, why not more work in that area (or
did you just not choose to focus on it in your review)? (You did mention an
interesting study in Sacramento, CA (Bergquam, et al, 1997)--any updates on
the second phase of that study using evacuated tube solar collectors)?
Seems to me that with metallized plastics, one could readily make a low cost
trough concentrator. Not true?

3. We've discussed this briefly in the past (I lost all my email due to
computer glitch, so forgive me if I repeat earlier questions), but after
your lab tour a couple years ago, I was wondering what the barriers to
efficient vacuum insulation were, and you mentioned they were hard to
fabricate. I've been wondering, what if you had a dynamic system? E.g.,
what if your house insulation were cheaper vacuum panels that may have
pinhole leaks but which are actively pumped by a vacuum pump to maintain
insulation? The vacuum could be removed if it were desirable for heat
transfer purposes to remove the insulation (e.g., maybe at night you'd
remove it in the spring and fall to allow cooling of the home interior, or
maybe on sunny mild winter days you'd remove it to allow heat into the
house). Then it could be reapplied if needed for insulation again.
Probably crazy idea, but what do you think? I suspect your answer will be
that to effectively insulate, you have to get a SUPER vacuum so it isn't
practical to do this, e.g., would require a two stage vaccuum pump and long
pumping times, but thought I'd ask. Do you happen to have a good reference
for vacuum pressure vs. insulation ability (R value or something)? What is
the vacuum pressure in your test refrigerator vacuum panels in the lab?

4. Why haven't solar regenerated dessicant systems found more use? Why
couldn't you combine that kind of trying with some of the techniques like
cool water tubes (see separate discussion with Kim, LaVerne Williams) to
have dry cool air/thermal mass?

5. I was curious about this conclusion: "Engineering trade-off studies
have shown that with current technology, vapor compression heat pumps have a
distinct mass advantage over thermally driven heat pumps for human
spacecraft and planetary base cooling (Ewert, 1993) (Swanson, 1993). The
thermal heat pumps have lower coefficients of performance and thus need to
reject a large amount of relatively low temperature waste heat. In space
there is no atmospheric heat sink and heat rejection must be via thermal
radiation. This means larger, heavier radiators for the thermal control
system, leading to higher launch-to-orbit costs." While true in space, is
it true for planetary base cooling? Why couldn't you use the planetary soil
to build radiators? For example, what if you pulverized it to a powder,
mixed it with a binder, and molded it? A relatively small mass of binder
would enable large mass of radiator. Or, maybe just use the planet surface
as a heat sink (perhaps after shielding it with aluminized film), with fluid
circulating in pipes buried beneath the surface. Just wondering; seemed
like the planet itself was an untapped resource...

6. Elastomers/rubber undergo heating/cooling during stretching/retraction.
I've seen proposals (I think even funded by NBS) to use elastomers as
refrigerants in heat pumps, replacing the gas with an elastomer undergoing
cyclic mechanical deformation. Right now I can't see how that would
necessarily help you in solar, but just curious if you'd run across it in
your reading.