Uakronkid:If they want nothing to do with them, why do they keep around Chechnya as a territory instead of cutting them loose and fortifying the border? Like it or not, it's a part of Russia.

whatshisname:They sure wanted their land and resources a couple of decades ago, but then that whole Soviet Union thing collapsed...

Definitely agree with you people. Even our Russian friends really don't want anything to do with them. From the citizen's perspective they don't really like them and consider them the "armpit" of Russia. It's more of a government perspective that Chechnya is still part of Russia. But, as you all know, the Russian democracy is not really a democracy except in name.

GAT_00:Myria: I hope the U.S. Attorney in the press conference meant that Dzhokar won't be Mirandized right now. In a crazy situation like this, Miranda warnings can wait for a short while until he's out of medical danger and inside a jail cell.

And I hope someone does that to you one day soon for saying that. I promise, you'll deserve it.

It is reasonable to expect they wouldn't question or Mirandize him before providing medical treatment and stabilizing him. In fact, that should be required, shouldn't it?

The bullshiat about questioning him about stuff with Mirandizing him, that's the bad thing. My worry: he still has rights to not incriminate himself no matter what the PATRIOT act says, it is superseded by the consitution, but is it honored? Can he end his interview whenever he wants?

ha-ha-guy:firefly212: I still say we should extradite him to China and let them try him for killing a Chinese national (and he can serve out his sentence) before coming back here to be tried for his crimes against US citizens. It'd be a show of good will on our part, and a demonstration by China that wherever their citizens are, the Chinese government will protect them as much as possible under the law.

Unless that girl was the daughter of some official, quite possible given she was able to come overseas for education, the Chinese government gives roughly zero shiats about this, aside from using it as domestic PR about how America is still the wild west and barely civilized.

They give two shiats about looking serious about being a superpower, and being able to protect their citizens even when they're abroad.They want global influence, and I think this would be a nice way to give them some.

Gyrfalcon:ThrobblefootSpectre: Ah, and I see in this thread people are still pissing themselves over some miranda issue. Wow. It is absolutely surreal how much influence cheesy TV shows have over some people's perception of reality.

I suppose it would be counterproductive to tell them just how many people go through arrest, jail, arraignment, pretrial services and release without ever having their Miranda rights read to them at all....

And remember, Miranda was re-tried after, and without the testimonial evidence that was thrown out by the SCOTUS ruling...was convicted anyway.

Just like all those people in Gitmo and our much larger political prison in Afghanistan got?

I wonder if there's a difference. Maybe you can help me out. What's different between the cases I listed and people in Gitmo? Do we flip a coin to decide if they get US civilian courts or Gitmo or is there some different mechanism at work?

scottydoesntknow:Uakronkid: Maximer: So... on an aside... My wife is Russian and she is royally pissed that the media is saying the Chechens are Russians. Whether you agree or not, the Russian people want nothing to do with these people (the bombers) or the Chechens in general.

If they want nothing to do with them, why do they keep around Chechnya as a territory instead of cutting them loose and fortifying the border? Like it or not, it's a part of Russia.

So you're saying Chechnya is Russia's Texas?

/Texan

This explains so much. Texans aren't real people. Sure they look like people, but have you ever tried *talking* to one?

...as I was just mentioning when the last thread got kiboshed, considering the media's batting average this week I'm hardly surprised they'd cite it as they did. And, if it's the AG's spouting that crap, I'm genuinely disappointed -- but hardly surprised -- in them they'd continue this Bush-era bullshiat.

The kid is a naturalized citizen. He has rights, deserves his day in court and so does Boston and the rest of the country. We're not frickin' Syria.

After the Madrid bombings in Spain, they caught the criminals gave them an open trial in a real court of law and found them guilty.

After the London bombings, they caught the criminals, gave them a public trial in a real court of law and found them guilty.

After the Mumbai bombings in India, they caught the criminals, gave them a public trial in a real court of law and found them guilty.

/Seriously, though, I'm cool with the thought of him spending the next 80 years full of regret and sadness. unable to even kill himself to end his sad life. All he has to look forward to is his body slowly decaying away until he dies alone and unloved, haunted by the thoughts of the life he could have had.

80 years?

By that point in time, we might have developed technologies that will allow us to keep someone alive artificially (and hopefully cognizant) for centuries. That'd be a hell of a deterrent.

Modify the whole "I sentence you to live out the rest of your natural life in the state/federal penitentiary" to make it "I sentence you to live as long as humanly and technologically possible via as many artificial means as we need to use (and if we invent new ones in the meantime, we're using those on you too) in the state/federal penitentiary." Life imprisonment takes on a whole new meaning.

skullkrusher:BullBearMS: skullkrusher: his farkhead - HOLY CRAP IT'S GONNA BE DIFF... nah, it'll be a real court of law trial

Just like all those people in Gitmo and our much larger political prison in Afghanistan got?

I wonder if there's a difference. Maybe you can help me out. What's different between the cases I listed and people in Gitmo? Do we flip a coin to decide if they get US civilian courts or Gitmo or is there some different mechanism at work?

How many people did NOT die or get injured today because they weren't driving to/from work? If there are 30,000 fatal car accidents every year, roughly equal to 82 per day, it's likely that dozens of lives were saved today just by keeping people at home and off the roads.

Gyrfalcon:ThrobblefootSpectre: Ah, and I see in this thread people are still pissing themselves over some miranda issue. Wow. It is absolutely surreal how much influence cheesy TV shows have over some people's perception of reality.

I suppose it would be counterproductive to tell them just how many people go through arrest, jail, arraignment, pretrial services and release without ever having their Miranda rights read to them at all....

A lot of people say stuff on camera in the back of the police car. Miranda rights are useful. Delaying them can tend to be a bit of a procedural PITA.

worlddan:High Fives for what? Near as I can tell it was a lot of wasted tax dollars. The police didn't even find him, some guy checking his yard did. Just think, if the police hadn't scared the hell out of everyone and so they stayed inside he would have been found hours ago. Well, more overtime for all the police; I can't wait to see the bill on that. I bet the police union will want a new contract now. For nothing. If these dimwits bombers had even half a brain they never would have been caught be these stooges.

FizixJunkee:How many people did NOT die or get injured today because they weren't driving to/from work? If there are 30,000 fatal car accidents every year, roughly equal to 82 per day, it's likely that dozens of lives were saved today just by keeping people at home and off the roads.

If Dave Henneberry had not been forced by his wife to smoke outside, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev would still be in the boat .http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/watertown-man-finds-bomber- ho led-boat-article-1.1322387

/ still not enough to make me [re-]start smoking

He said his stepdad thought the person in his boat was still alive despite spotting blood pooling under the tarp.Apparently shots were exchanged at some point when police moved in, Duffy said."I just heard they wound up shooting a couple of rounds through his boat," said Duffy. "He's not going to like that, he's real anal about it."

Just like all those people in Gitmo and our much larger political prison in Afghanistan got?

I wonder if there's a difference. Maybe you can help me out. What's different between the cases I listed and people in Gitmo? Do we flip a coin to decide if they get US civilian courts or Gitmo or is there some different mechanism at work?

OOH I know!!!! *raises hand* PICK ME!!!!

I'm going to go with, this guy is more likely to actually be guilty than everyone in Gitmo.

dr_blasto:t is reasonable to expect they wouldn't question or Mirandize him before providing medical treatment and stabilizing him. In fact, that should be required, shouldn't it?

The bullshiat about questioning him about stuff with Mirandizing him, that's the bad thing. My worry: he still has rights to not incriminate himself no matter what the PATRIOT act says, it is superseded by the consitution, but is it honored? Can he end his interview whenever he wants?

Given that Boston cops managed to avoid killing any of the who knows how many innocent people they arrested in the last 24 hours, there is a small chance that actual justice will prevail, he will be read his rights, get a real, fair trial, and if found guilty spend his life in jail, the way it should happen.

It's a very small chance. Just look at all the bloodthirsty savages in here for example.

Uakronkid:Maximer: So... on an aside... My wife is Russian and she is royally pissed that the media is saying the Chechens are Russians. Whether you agree or not, the Russian people want nothing to do with these people (the bombers) or the Chechens in general.

If they want nothing to do with them, why do they keep around Chechnya as a territory instead of cutting them loose and fortifying the border? Like it or not, it's a part of Russia.

Short answer: oil. The whole situation is a longstanding clusterfark. But it's true that there's a big ethnic and cultural gap there; I'm pretty sure these guys (well, the one remaining guy) wouldn't be happy to be described as Russian either.

firefly212:ha-ha-guy: firefly212: I still say we should extradite him to China and let them try him for killing a Chinese national (and he can serve out his sentence) before coming back here to be tried for his crimes against US citizens. It'd be a show of good will on our part, and a demonstration by China that wherever their citizens are, the Chinese government will protect them as much as possible under the law.

Unless that girl was the daughter of some official, quite possible given she was able to come overseas for education, the Chinese government gives roughly zero shiats about this, aside from using it as domestic PR about how America is still the wild west and barely civilized.

They give two shiats about looking serious about being a superpower, and being able to protect their citizens even when they're abroad.They want global influence, and I think this would be a nice way to give them some.

If he falls into their hands, they'll put a bullet in his head, but they're not going to make some spectacle out of it. You talk about how they want status and all that, they'd just talk about how we didn't have the balls to give the the guy the needle, so they had to do it for us and flex their muscles. They'd see zero gain from killing him over one dead and one wounded Chinese girl. Just some perks from making us look pussy whipped.

/I mean they bury the train cars on sight to hide how many people died, human life is seen as cheap in China

DamnYankees: 2 kids set of a couple bombs and we competely shut down a major city

F you. An entire farking city came together and did what was necessary to help catch the bombers. People stayed home and the police were able to concentrate on the area where the bombers were known to be. If everyone was out, they would have been running all over town chasing ghosts and directing traffic and dealing with auto accidents. The people of Boston did not act like self-important asshats who couldn't possibly stay home from work or shut down their offices because their work is so freaking vital that it can't wait one single day.

DJ Kittypie here with....a party tune from the recent past, going out this evening to the Boston Police Department, the citizens of the city of Boston, the great state of Massachusets, the runners of the Boston Marathon, the FBI, and lastly, in the final position of honour, to the students, staff and police force of the Massachusets Institute of Technology. Y'all know who I'm talkin' about.

Let the grieving find strength in knowing that joy will return in its proper time.

Fair_Poopsmith:Hey- I'm a bit behind, Japan timezone here. I fell asleep when they were dealing with the 60-70 yer old guy apparently holding a deadman switch.. Now I can't seem to find any follow-up on that. Anyone know how that ended up playing out?

Essentially like this

Tony: Be careful with this guy. He was in the ministry of the interior. Killed 16 Chechnyans. (hangs up)

Jesterling:worlddan: High Fives for what? Near as I can tell it was a lot of wasted tax dollars. The police didn't even find him, some guy checking his yard did. Just think, if the police hadn't scared the hell out of everyone and so they stayed inside he would have been found hours ago. Well, more overtime for all the police; I can't wait to see the bill on that. I bet the police union will want a new contract now. For nothing. If these dimwits bombers had even half a brain they never would have been caught be these stooges.

EMBARRASSING

[www.charlock.org image 571x570]

An entire city's police force failed to find a guy hiding in a boat 5 miles away from where they lost him the first time, and that's after taking away the rights of the entire city of Boston. It's amazing how badly this was handled.

BullBearMS:al's hat: So are you suggesting a stoning in front of the Old State House?

I'm suggesting we follow our own laws. We've shown a disturbing unwillingness to do that under Bush and now Obama.

We're on the same page I think. Arrest, try, hopefully convict, and then sentence. It's possible that there is some confusion in replies to parent comments going on. I've seen a few odd things when trying to reply to comments this evening.

You don't need to Mirandize somebody the moment you arrest them. That's a Hollywood lie.

You only need to notify them of their Miranda rights when you begin formal interrogation of them, and in addition to the verbal notice they are presented with a written notice of it to sign, to acknowledge that they were notified.

Just because you didn't see a Hollywood-style "You have the right to remain silent. . ." while they were leading him off, like you'd see on a TV cop show, doesn't mean proper real-world procedure wasn't being followed.

This guy will get his farking Miranda rights at the right time.

Perhaps, when he his conscious.

How farking sad is that there are already Mirandize concern trolls?

not surprising

It's pretty common to not have rights read but be in custody, especially when someone is injured and in or on the way to the hospital.

dr_blasto:GAT_00: Myria: I hope the U.S. Attorney in the press conference meant that Dzhokar won't be Mirandized right now. In a crazy situation like this, Miranda warnings can wait for a short while until he's out of medical danger and inside a jail cell.

And I hope someone does that to you one day soon for saying that. I promise, you'll deserve it.

It is reasonable to expect they wouldn't question or Mirandize him before providing medical treatment and stabilizing him. In fact, that should be required, shouldn't it?

The bullshiat about questioning him about stuff with Mirandizing him, that's the bad thing. My worry: he still has rights to not incriminate himself no matter what the PATRIOT act says, it is superseded by the consitution, but is it honored? Can he end his interview whenever he wants?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, because Miranda is only to ADVISE you of your rights. Your rights are guaranteed in the constitution. The Miranda warning is only given because (based on the case) some people are unaware of their rights, or not aware they have them, or not given the option to exercise them--but you always have them, because the 5th and 6th Amendment are always in play. If this kid wakes up from surgery and they start talking to him and he says "STFU, go away, I want a lawyer," then even if they haven't read his rights, they have to STFU and go away. They don't get to say "Ha ha! You don't have any rights yet because we didn't read them to you!"

Miranda is there mostly as a marker--it tells the cops and DA when they can start using what you say against you. Under current rulings, if you haven't been Mirandized, then anything you say pretty much is off the table as far as a confession (there are plenty of exceptions, though). After Miranda has been given, then they can start using it. So if this guy says "I blew up the Marathon and I'm glad"--it's not usable in court as a confession. Post-Miranda, it would be.

As soon as you say, "I want to stop talking," they have to stop, though.

ha-ha-guy:Biological Ali: Olfin Bedwere: Fissile: Jesus H. Kristmess! Where did these cops learn how to shoot? Do they connect only when they're shooting at the family toy poodle and 87 year old wheel chair bound grandmothers?

I don't think they were shooting to kill. The FBI wanted this guy alive.

The impression I got was that cops (at least in the US) don't take any chances with suspects believed to be this dangerous. They use lethal force, and the only things that can save the suspect are a clear and unambiguous surrender, or dumb luck (surviving after getting shot in the head etc.)

HRT, the FBI team that took him out, is basically an end run on the whole exception we can't used American military forces on domestic soil. They train with Delta and at any given time many of the guys on HRT did time in SOCOM prior to retiring from the military and getting a job with the FBI. We unleashed the next best thing to SEAL 6 on a 19 year old who was bleeding to teeth in a partially shrink wrapped boat. The local pukes are very much the hail of bullet types, but I'd imagine half of HRT was thinking "Well if you aren't some pathetic little wannabe Taliban fighter. I stacked farks like you waist high in Afghanistan." I doubt they felt much pressure to employ lethal force out of fear for their own lives.

/for example HRT was yelling at the local cops not to turn on the floodlights because they all had nightvision goggles and knew how to use them

Well yeah - at that point it looks like he was already more or less incapacitated, so that would have likely factored into how they approached the guy in the end. But the fact that he happened to sustain wounds that were light enough to survive in the first place was likely just down to luck on his part, rather than restraint on the part of the cops shooting at him.