" Gauntlets of Atlas increase Wonder Woman's strength 10 times and stamina/durability by 10 At that level she is well beyond supermans level and probably darksieds level of strength.... Which probably will allow her to inflict adequate amounts of damage in her attacks

Wonder Woman doesn't have the Gauntlet of Atlas here. She wasn't stated to have it in the OP, thus she's not carrying this item in battle. It's not a part of her standard gear; she doesn't carry it often.

@FlagSister said:

"Deflecting his Omega Beams back at him

Would be difficult. He can maneuver them around her bracelets. She wouldn't be able to deflect them for long if she could.

@FlagSister said:

" When was CURRENT Wonder Woman ever beaten almost to death my Mongul

In Infinite Crisis, she was getting knocked around by Mongul Jr. and couldn't do much against him.

The beams worked on mordru and the sword of excalibur why shouldnt they work on her bracelets? and the great darkness saga is cannon it was mentioned very recently in legion of superheroes #5 just i think 3 months ago,and the story has just recently been reprinted in deluxe edition.

" @Static Shock: The beams worked on mordru and the sword of excalibur why shouldnt they work on her bracelets?

Wonder Woman's bracelets are made from Zeus's aegis, and magical shield that is indestructible. Zeus said that they cannot be broken. Mordru is not indestructible. The Sword of Excalibur, whatever that is made of, isn't made from the same material as the bracelets, nor are they governed by the same magic.

Just because he destroyed a sorcerer and a magical sword doesn't mean that they are supposed to work on Wonder Woman's bracelets.

@entropy_aegis said:

and the great darkness saga is cannon it was mentioned very recently in legion of superheroes #5 just i think 3 months ago,and the story has just recently been reprinted in deluxe edition. "

in countdown which is non cannon to new gods,nice try@Static Shock: I was responding to the question regarding the storylines cannonocity(spelling) it wasnt directed towards you, my mistake,and the point stands that he absorbed a being greater than the guy who forged those bracelets ,why couldnt he absorb the energy which powers those bracelets turning them in to normal ones.and i dont buy shazam being more powerful than mordru or darkseid,not when motherboxes have shown the ability to channel the transformation lightnings.and darkseid was the one who stopped godwave ares,wonder woman can barely beat the normal one

" and the point stands that he absorbed a being greater than the guy who forged those bracelets ,why couldnt he absorb the energy which powers those bracelets turning them in to normal ones. "

Your point doesn't stand at all, really. Mordru isn't greater than Zeus (nor is he indestructible), so I don't know where you got that. Zeus is a god. Mordru is a sorcerer (who recently admitted that he couldn't defeat Mirabai on his own in Action Comics, so how is he superior to a god?). Do the math. The bracelets are made from a magical indestructible shield, and Zeus (the god who made the bracelets) says that they can't be broken. I'll take his word over yours. At the same time, they've deflected the Omega Beams. What Darkseid did to Mordru or some magical sword has nothing to do with Wonder Woman's bracelets.

Your case doesn't hold up.

@entropy_aegis said:

"and i dont buy shazam being more powerful than mordru or darkseid,not when motherboxes have shown the ability to channel the transformation lightnings.and darkseid was the one who stopped godwave ares,wonder woman can barely beat the normal one "

Shazam is more powerful than Mordru. The power of 6 gods > the power of a sorcerer. Nobody said that Shazam was more powerful than Darkseid, so I don't know where you go that from. What mother boxes are able to do with the lightning needed to transform doesn't make the power of Shazam any less powerful.

@Static Shock:I'M not saying he can destroy them by pure blast force,i,m simply claiming he can use the effect to null them.and mordru>zeus by a long shot zeus is the most embarassing god in DC comics .

" @Static Shock: I'M not saying he can destroy them by pure blast force,i,m simply claiming he can use the effect to null them.

Okay. But, it seemed as if you were saying that deflecting the Omega Beams didn't make sense. Using the Omega Effect to null them is believable, but there's no discrediting her ability to deflect them with her bracelets.

@entropy_aegis said:

" and mordru>zeus by a long shot zeus is the most embarassing god in DC comics . "

If Mordru was so powerful, he wouldn't have had to disguise himself as an ogre to throw off Mirabai in the Sorcerer's World. Even he claimed that he wasn't powerful enough to fight her on his own, and allowed Captain Atom to do it for him. If he was so much greater than Zeus, he should have been able to beat her alone and take Sorcerer's World without Captain Atom's help.

" Ummm if you are refering to For Tomorrow Superman story ARCH, That is not Wonder Womans Sword. That is an enchanted DAGGER When was CURRENT Wonder Woman ever beaten almost to death my Mongul? please post a scan or make a reference dont just repeat what you overheard. Gauntlets of Atlas increase Wonder Woman's strength 10 times and stamina/durability by 10 At that level she is well beyond supermans level and probably darksieds level of strength.... Which probably will allow her to inflict adequate amounts of damage in her attacksDeflecting his Omega Beams back at him Using her Divine Lighnting.... probably would not kill him but certainly will inflict damage The only way to finally Win would be to Entangle him with the lasso.... Even Darksied can not break the lasso. If you dont think she stands a chance with 10 times her own strength/stamina/durability.... + her other weapons then I guess we can agree to disagree..... I dont care if she stands a chance or no....I could careless but from what I know, she stands a chance to win..... if you disagree then so be it. If Wonder Woman is 10times stronger/stamina/durability and she can block his omega beams then what is Darkseid going to do to win? "

In Infinite Crisis, Mongul took on Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman at the same time. With the Gauntlets she may be physically stronger than Darkseid but I still want to know what her sword, shield and armor are going to do to help her at all. She may be able to block the omega beams, but he can change their direction and make them go through dimensions. He can just make them come behind her and hit her and transmute her into a statue or just erase her. And as I showed, he can use the omega effect through his hands too.

@Static Shock said:

"@MrDirector786 said:

" From what I've heard isn't that story actually one of the few Pre-Crisis stories that are still canon in post-crisis universe? I've heard this from different places and Zoom told me that the event has been mentioned in some post-crisis stories. "

I haven't seen that documented anywhere.... "

I heard from Zoom that it is still canon to post-crisis continuity and it also says that it is still canon on wikipedia. And yes, I know wikipedia is not a very good source. I'll try to see if I can find a better source to show that it is still canon to post-crisis continuity, like a post-crisis comic in which the event is referred to or something.

" In Infinite Crisis, Mongul took on Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman at the same time. With the Gauntlets she may be physically stronger than Darkseid but I still want to know what her sword, shield and armor are going to do to help her at all. She may be able to block the omega beams, but he can change their direction and make them go through dimensions. He can just make them come behind her and hit her and transmute her into a statue or just erase her. And as I showed, he can use the omega effect through his hands too.

You shouldn't even be debating what her sword, shield, and armor can do because she doesn't have any of those things here.

" @Static Shock: I'M not saying he can destroy them by pure blast force,i,m simply claiming he can use the effect to null them.

Okay. But, it seemed as if you were saying that deflecting the Omega Beams didn't make sense. Using the Omega Effect to null them is believable, but there's no discrediting her ability to deflect them with her bracelets.

@entropy_aegis said:

" and mordru>zeus by a long shot zeus is the most embarassing god in DC comics . "

If Mordru was so powerful, he wouldn't have had to disguise himself as an ogre to throw off Mirabai in the Sorcerer's World. Even he claimed that he wasn't powerful enough to fight her on his own, and allowed Captain Atom to do it for him. If he was so much greater than Zeus, he should have been able to beat her alone and take Sorcerer's World without Captain Atom's help. "

Hmm current mordru sounds very weak. i concede i may have overestimated him,but back when darkseid pwned him he was an uber powerhouse.

" @superdemon: What countdown feats did i use ? oh thats right i didnt.not to mention they were all avatars(thats what they were all retconned in to). "

Exactly. Because the character is pathetic. "

No. He is not pathetic just because you say so. All his low showings are either him in a weakened state or are Desaad disguised as him, an avatar, or bad writing. And avatars are not were not created as an excuse by the writers to cover up his low showings. In fact, from what I've seen of his first mentioned avatar, it is supposed to show that he is so powerful he is capable of creating avatars of himself so that he can be in two places at once.

If the Death of the New Gods was retconned into something else (in this case, Infinity Man only killed the avatars), then I guess his 'power-up' (which allowed him to take the souls of New Gods) wasn't all that great.

" @superdemon: What countdown feats did i use ? oh thats right i didnt.not to mention they were all avatars(thats what they were all retconned in to). "

Exactly. Because the character is pathetic. "

No. He is not pathetic just because you say so. All his low showings are either him in a weakened state or are Desaad disguised as him, an avatar, or bad writing. And avatars are not were not created as an excuse by the writers to cover up his low showings. In fact, from what I've seen of his first mentioned avatar, it is supposed to show that he is so powerful he is capable of creating avatars of himself so that he can be in two places at once. "

Yes, he is pathetic. He is so pathetic, they had to retcon his losses into avatars and posers. Whoch is sad and says nothing good about the character.

Read below.

@Freefa11 said:

" @entropy_aegis said:

" @Freefa11: Maybe because they were indeed avatars and dessad,not to mention morrison indeed retconned all their appearences as avatars in his final crisis interview. "

In that case of avatars, it doesn't really matter, which is why it's annoying when that gets brought up as if it is a point. Even taking the avatar thing as true, the "real" Darkseid has never made an appearance, never performed a feat, is completely unquantified. This means he cannot be meaningfully discussed in a vs. debate, so any topic involving Darkseid must default to his "avatars" anyway. Put another way, until the "real" Darkseid actually shows up and does something, he may as well not exist.

Like I mentioned before, Morrison is also the guy who, in-universe no less, basically stated that Superman objectively has the greatest story of any comic character ever. I'm not sure how seriously the guy should be taken on these matters, especially considering that the avatar thing is not established in-universe. Basically, if someone only ever read comics and never saw the interview, there's no way for them to know that, and if another writer came along later and retconned it, you'd never be able to tell the difference or find anything in Morrison's works that explicitly contradict it. I just don't view something as a very meaningful retcon when it only exists in the interview of one author. Basically, I think he may have been overstepping his authority.

(and I'm not referring to the idea of Darkseid being able to form an avatar, but the idea that every appearance of Darkseid has been an avatar; in fact, I believe there is one issue where an actual Darkseid avatar explicitly stated he disliked making avatars).

@MrDirector786 said:

Once again, that scan of when Byrne wrote Supermarn beat him him was DESAAD not Darkseid. I even showed scans of it and my second newest blog shows this. And when did any of those other writers depict him losing to Superman? "

The problem with the Desaad retcon is it was obviously done for damage control rather than making sense. Which means it doesn't make a lot of sense, or at least raises questions, and since the proof isn't actually explicit, it can be argued around. What do I mean by questions? Well, just how powerful is Desaad. I always thought he was one of the weaker new gods. Yet, if that really was Desaad, then he was capable of mentally unlocking Superman's full powers after they had been suppressed; he was capable of firing apparently a near-perfect facsimile of the Omega Effect from his eyes, as well as surviving a direct hit from said attack. He was powerful enough to harm Superman, and tough enough to survive multiple punches from Superman without so much as a broken jaw, and then opens a Boom Tube in front of himself without, IIRC, any obvious technical apparatus. So just how tough and powerful is Desaad? On the one hand, we have Darkseid being only a slight notch above Superman, which seems perfectly reasonable given their many other encounters. On the other hand, we've got Desaad being only a slight notch below Superman, which seems way out of whack. I'm pretty sure Darkseid being in Superman's league is a lot more consistent than Desaad being in Superman's league. Then there's the question of his acting ability, which is a lesser but, I think, still serious issue. There was absolutely nothing in the comic itself to indicate it wasn't really Darkseid (since it was obviously written at the time to be him). He does not act obviously out of character. None of his lackeys suspect at all, even Granny Goodness. Not even Orion gives any hint of suspecting it isn't really Darkseid, even though in later issues it seems clear he can see through such disguises easily. Also, just consider how stoicly he faces the onslaught of an enraged Superman. Desaad is normally a coward. I have trouble believing he could maintain his composure at all in such a situation, yet he does so flawlessly. This is a longwinded way of saying that the Desaad explanation doesn't make any sense here. If it doesn't make any sense, I'll discard it unless the proof is completely ironclad, and by ironclad I basically mean any attempts to get around the explanation would have to somehow make less sense than Desaad suddenly becoming much braver and stronger than he should be. Basically view it as a kind of Occam's Razor for comics. Schultz and Casey worked on the parts of OWAW that involved Superman directly fighting Darkseid. Schultz also wrote the "Apokolips Now" one-shot, where Superman beat Darkseid blind (which is also the most clear-cut victory either of them has had over the other that I can recall seeing). The scans you showed just said that Darkseid lost the Omega Beams, not that his physical attributes had been diminished, but it doesn't really matter because I wasn't actually trying to use it as a point against Darkseid, I was using it as a point against Finalstar's habit of becoming disingenuous and bringing out a single low-showing from Thanos to try and prove his point when he doesn't get his way. If Thanos is really that weak, or Darkseid really that strong, he shouldn't have to resort to such weak tactics to show it. He even needed to have the scan from Infinity Abyss proving it was a clone fighting Ka-Zar practically rubbed in his face before he stopped using that example. Darkseid harming the Anti-Monitor doesn't actually show much. AM was already greatly weakened at that point, pretty much losing. Darkseid also attacked him via completely unknown method. He pushed a button and suddenly energy started blasting out of Luthor's eyes. There is nothing to indicate it was the Omega Beams or had anything to do with Darkseid's personal power. What exactly happened is a complete unknown. "

@superdemon:Our worlds at war at war and everything related to it was a pure superman wankfest,everyone knows this or atleast anyone with a brain,i already explained morissons statement,thanos has seen damage control retcons as well(clones anyone)same goes for doctor doom(doom bots) but when darkseid does it people have a problem with it.and morisson told DC to stay away from the new gods ,not only did countdown and death of the new gods contradict everything morrison envisioned,they also contadicted THEMSELVES.

" @superdemon: After reading that, I can see that he has never actually read much New Gods stuff at all. And as a side note, you seem to be trolling again. I reported you once for trolling. I'll do it again if I have to. "

Dude...you're the only one who thinks I'm trolling. Do you even have any idea what the word means?

so where is morrison wrong in saying superman has the greatest stories? he didnt claim superman to be the most powerful character ever created,what he said was a matter of opinion and one which thankfully can actually be backed ,its not like greg pak claiming that hulk can beat odin (yes the idiot actually said that) he enjoyed superman stories the same way i enjoy batman ,alan moore also voiced somewhat similar opinion, back in the day they grew up with these characters , plain and simple ,alex ross actually once refused to draw kyle rayner because to him hal jordan was the only true lantern .morrison didnt say superman was better than thor or spiderman dont know why its anything to bash him on.I completely agree that the avatars and disguises were actually retcons,darkseid still has more higher end showings than lower ones.all his low showings take place in books which more people read(superman ) his high end showings are littered in places which are sadly not read by too many people(firestorm,darkstars etc)

" Gauntlets of Atlas increase Wonder Woman's strength 10 times and stamina/durability by 10 At that level she is well beyond supermans level and probably darksieds level of strength.... Which probably will allow her to inflict adequate amounts of damage in her attacks

Wonder Woman doesn't have the Gauntlet of Atlas here. She wasn't stated to have it in the OP, thus she's not carrying this item in battle. It's not a part of her standard gear; she doesn't carry it often.

@FlagSister said:

"Deflecting his Omega Beams back at him

Would be difficult. He can maneuver them around her bracelets. She wouldn't be able to deflect them for long if she could.

@FlagSister said:

" When was CURRENT Wonder Woman ever beaten almost to death my Mongul

In Infinite Crisis, she was getting knocked around by Mongul Jr. and couldn't do much against him. "

I never said Wonder Woman had her Gauntlets in this fight

This whole thing started when I said Wonder Woman is CAPABLE of beating Darkseid using her equipment. I NEVER said Wonder Woman is going to beat darkseid using just her standard equipment. The other guy is trying to say even with all her equipment it is IMPOSSIBLE for Wonder Woman to win.. and his argument was not very good to support it

Also are you refering to when Mongul suprised Wonder Woman Superman and Batman on the MOON? because if I recall Wonder Woman was going to kill him with her sword and Superman stopped her. Batman and Superman faired no better than Wonder Woman

Again all I said is Wonder Woman is capable of beating Darksied and she will need more than her standard equipment to do it.... Sheesh.I did not think I would need to spend all day defending that simple comment.

" @superdemon: After reading that, I can see that he has never actually read much New Gods stuff at all. And as a side note, you seem to be trolling again. I reported you once for trolling. I'll do it again if I have to. "

Dude...you're the only one who thinks I'm trolling. Do you even have any idea what the word means?

And you're saying that what you're doing isn't trolling? You're constantly downplaying Darkseid, you seem to ignore what others keep telling you and just put lol, and you make fun of other users. That is what I call trolling.

Oh, and one more thing: you seem to act a lot like this user. I'm thinking of asking a mod to do an IP check. In fact, your first post I recall was in the Black Adam vs Gladiator thread and ironically that's the last thread this account visited.

P.S. We both know, that this doesn't matter, because it is Pre-Crisis and both of them were much more powerfull then, but what with the Excalibur? And how pwoerfull it is in DC? Because in Marvel it is one of the greatest magical weapon. IIRC Cap Britain with Ex and Amulet of Right was Omniversal (Megaversal) guardian.

@MrDirector786: Wonder Woman has Access to divine blessed weapons her sword is included..... if you are saying that a hephestus forged sword will have no effect on Darkseid then I guess you are lost.... And for the LAST TIME I am not saying Wonder Woman beats Darkseid.... All I have ever said is that she is capable of doing so with her equipment. I dont know why thats so difficult for you to understand. You seem to be exagerating all sorts of things in an attempt to prove me wrong in things that are obvious.

Here is your interperatetion of Wonder Woman getting Beaten almost to Death Please point out where do you see Wonder Woman getting beaten to near DEATH. Do you see her sword? The one superman needs to catch with his PALMS? why do you think he is doing that? is it because it will cut him? OH Wait The Sword can also cut mongul see mongul screaming? see the Slash Mark on Monguls chest? Look at the last panel see how supermans hand gets cut when she pulls the blade out of his grasp? Look Closer and you see Monguls face.... He looks scared that Wonder Woman is going to use her sword on him again I wonder Why.

But your still going to tell me it has no effect on Darkseid I bet or that its just bad writing.

Also are you refering to when Mongul suprised Wonder Woman Superman and Batman on the MOON? because if I recall Wonder Woman was going to kill him with her sword and Superman stopped her. Batman and Superman faired no better than Wonder Woman

Even after that, Mongul was still tearing through them. Wonder Woman included.

Superman eventually knocked out Mongul, IIRC. He did better than she did.

" @superdemon: After reading that, I can see that he has never actually read much New Gods stuff at all. And as a side note, you seem to be trolling again. I reported you once for trolling. I'll do it again if I have to. "

Dude...you're the only one who thinks I'm trolling. Do you even have any idea what the word means?

And you're saying that what you're doing isn't trolling? You're constantly downplaying Darkseid, you seem to ignore what others keep telling you and just put lol, and you make fun of other users. That is what I call trolling. Oh, and one more thing: you seem to act a lot like this user. I'm thinking of asking a mod to do an IP check. In fact, your first post I recall was in the Black Adam vs Gladiator thread and ironically that's the last thread this account visited. http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/drtyrannical/ "

Who have I made fun of? lol. Your useless posts such as the one I'm quoting is the definition of trolling. Stay on topic, please.

I'm not downplaying Darkseid. The DC publishers and editors are by making him look bad and retconning things becuase he's pathetic.

Funny what you resort to when defending a fictional character. Never knew DS meant so much to you.

@FlagSister: I'll admit this much. Wonder Woman is capable of beating Darkseid if she has a lot of help from things like the Gauntlets, and all the other things you mentioned. On her own without any of those things, she lasts 5 seconds at most.

" Who have I made fun of? lol. Your useless posts such as the one I'm quoting is the definition of trolling. Stay on topic, please. I'm not downplaying Darkseid. The DC publishers and editors are by making him look bad and retconning things becuase he's pathetic. Funny what you resort to when defending a fictional character. Never knew DS meant so much to you. And by all means, report away. "

This is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about. And yes, you have been making fun of other users and have been ignoring what others say.

" Who have I made fun of? lol. Your useless posts such as the one I'm quoting is the definition of trolling. Stay on topic, please. I'm not downplaying Darkseid. The DC publishers and editors are by making him look bad and retconning things becuase he's pathetic. Funny what you resort to when defending a fictional character. Never knew DS meant so much to you. And by all means, report away. "

This is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about. And yes, you have been making fun of other users and have been ignoring what others say. "

No, I haven't. Thanks for giving me so much attention though. I'd say you were infatuated with me. Quit harassing me on the forums and stay on topic.

Also are you refering to when Mongul suprised Wonder Woman Superman and Batman on the MOON? because if I recall Wonder Woman was going to kill him with her sword and Superman stopped her. Batman and Superman faired no better than Wonder Woman

Even after that, Mongul was still tearing through them. Wonder Woman included. Superman eventually knocked out Mongul, IIRC. He did better than she did. "

This is about the effectiveness of Wonder Womans Sword...... I does not matter how good or bad she did... So what if Superman did better, this is not about that. MrDirecter is saying she got beaten near death and this does not show that..... He is also saying Wonder Womans sword will have no effect on Darkseid.... All am doing is showing MrDirector is should be able to cut Darkseid if it can cut Superman and Mongul in my DAY long attempt to prove that Wonder Woman is Capable of beating Darkseid with access to her equipment

Also are you refering to when Mongul suprised Wonder Woman Superman and Batman on the MOON? because if I recall Wonder Woman was going to kill him with her sword and Superman stopped her. Batman and Superman faired no better than Wonder Woman

Even after that, Mongul was still tearing through them. Wonder Woman included. Superman eventually knocked out Mongul, IIRC. He did better than she did. "

This is about the effectiveness of Wonder Womans Sword...... I does not matter how good or bad she did... So what if Superman did better, this is not about that. MrDirecter is saying she got beaten near death and this does not show that..... He is also saying Wonder Womans sword will have no effect on Darkseid.... All am doing is showing MrDirector is should be able to cut Darkseid if it can cut Superman and Mongul "

" Who have I made fun of? lol. Your useless posts such as the one I'm quoting is the definition of trolling. Stay on topic, please. I'm not downplaying Darkseid. The DC publishers and editors are by making him look bad and retconning things becuase he's pathetic. Funny what you resort to when defending a fictional character. Never knew DS meant so much to you. And by all means, report away. "

This is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about. And yes, you have been making fun of other users and have been ignoring what others say. "

No, I haven't. Thanks for giving me so much attention though. I'd say you were infatuated with me. Quit harassing me on the forums and stay on topic. "

Go ahead and deny it. And don't worry, I'm going to just ignore you now since I'd rather avoid a flame war.

" This is about the effectiveness of Wonder Womans Sword...... I does not matter how good or bad she did... So what if Superman did better, this is not about that. MrDirecter is saying she got beaten near death and this does not show that..... He is also saying Wonder Womans sword will have no effect on Darkseid.... All am doing is showing MrDirector is should be able to cut Darkseid if it can cut Superman and Mongul in my DAY long attempt to prove that Wonder Woman is Capable of beating Darkseid with access to her equipment "

I'm still trying to figure out why Mongul is being compared to Darkseid... How do you even know if Mongul's durability is equal to Darkseid's?