I explained in last lecture about the title of this scripture,
Sandokai-what does it mean by San-do-kai and
Chikudo daisen no shin. Tonight, maybe, it is necessary to
explain about the background of this poem-why Sekito-zenji-Sekito
Kisen-daiosho, wrote this poem.

As you know, under the Fifth Patriarch[1] there were outstanding teacher who is
called Jinshu,[2] and
when the Fifth Patriarch announced that he will give transmission
to someone, and everyone thought that, of course, Jinshu will
receive the transmission. But actually Eno,[3] the Sixth Patriarch-Eno who became the
Sixth Patriarch-Eno who was pounding rice in the corner of the
temple received the transmission.

But Jinshu was a great scholar. So later Jinshu became-went to
the northern country and became a great teacher. And Jinshu's
school was called Northern-Hoku Zen-Northern School of Zen, Hoku
Zen, Hoku Zen.[4] And
the Sixth Patriarch, who went to south, spread his teaching in
southern countries, and his school was called Nan Zen,
Southern-South Zen.[5]

Later, as you know, Jinshu's school became-after Jinshu, his
school became weaker and weaker. But in north, the Sixth
Patriarch's school became, after the Sixth Patriarch, stronger and
stronger. But at Sekito's time, you know-Sekito is the Eighth
Patriarch, Eno is the Sixth Patriarch, and Seventh Patriarch is
Seigen.[6] And
Seigen's disciple is Sekito. Sekito is the author of this poem. In
Sekito's time, Hoko-shu or Northern Zen was still powerful. But
there were another disciple. Of course, Sixth Patriarch had many,
many disciples. Maybe more than fifty. We can count fifty, but
there must be more disciples under the Sixth Patriarch.

And one of-there were a disciple whose name is Kataku
Jinne.[7] Kataku
Jinne denounced the Northern Zen, which is, you know, Jinshu's Zen,
pretty strictly, and he was a very active person. And what he said
was not exactly-we cannot accept his teaching, you know, as a
disciple of the Sixth Patriarch. Not exactly so, but he was very
alert and active person. And he denounced, or his disciple,
denounced the Northern Zen a lot.

So [in] Sekito's time there was, you know, some conflict between
Southern Zen, which is Eno (Eno's, the Sixth Patriarch's) Zen, and
Jinshu's Zen. So Sekito Kisen, the author of this poem, wanted to
solve this, you know-wanted to make this dispute clear from his own
viewpoint. This is, you know, why he wrote this poem.

So he-first of all, he started by Buddha's teaching, you know,
Buddha's teaching, which is the teaching "a Great Mind of Sage in
India," you know. That is the first thing he started to say. And it
says:

[Line 1] The mind of the Great Sage of India

[Line 2] Flowed unseen from west to east.

[Translation by Reiho Masunaga.]

"Flowed unseen from west to east." Tozai mitsuni aifusu.
In Chinese, tozai mitsuni aifusu. To means, you know,
"China." And zai-"east" [west] means India. "In India and
China, Buddha's great mind [was] transmitted all over,
unseen-flowed unseen from west to east."

And next, you know, you don't have translation. And next
sentence is not like this, you know. I have here someone's
translation, but next, if you follow the order of the sentences,
next one will be: "People discriminate the dull from the wit." This
is-it means, you know, dispute between-which is better, you know,
Northern School or, you know, Southern School? People, you know,
say "Northern School is better," or "Southern School is better."
People may-people say so, you know. It is actually, you know, it
means, it means the dispute between Southern School and Northern
School. And a strong criticism of [by] Kataku Jinne, Kataku Jinne.
Kataku Jinne. Kataku Jinne is-was born 668 and died 670 [760].
Kataku Jinne. He is-he was-at that time, you know, maybe you must
have studied the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch. That sutra
was compiled, maybe, compiled by someone who is under the strong
influence of Kataku Jinne. So in that sutra , you know, Jinshu's
teaching is pretty badly denounced, you know. Jinshu was not so
good, you know. Only the Sixth Patriarch [laughs] was great
teacher. It seemsin that way because, maybe, the sutra was
compiled by someone under the influence of Kataku Jinne. Anyway,
this kind of dispute was very strong at that time.

So:

[Line 1] The mind of the Great Sage of India

[Line 2] Flowed unseen from west to east.

[Translation by Reiho Masunaga.]

It means that, you know, Sekito knows, you know, the true
teaching of the great sage of Shakyamuni Buddha, which will include
both Southern School and Northern School without any, you know,
contradiction. From his viewpoint, you know, there is no need to,
you know, to fight [laughs]. Because they don't understand real
teaching of Buddha, they get into dispute. That is what he mean
[laughs].

[Line 1] The mind of the Great Sage of India

[Line 2] Flowed unseen from west to east.

[Translation by Reiho Masunaga.]

You know, although they may not understand, you know, the
teaching of the great sage, Shakyamuni Buddha, but his teaching
flowed all over. If you have the eyes to see or have the mind to
understand his teaching, you will understand it. And if you
understand it, there is no-it is not necessary to be involved in
this kind of dispute. Actually, it meaned this kind of thing.
"Flowed unseen from west to east."

And next sentence is-I translate it in this way: "People
discriminate the dull from the wit." "The dull from the wit." It
does-[laughs] does it make sense [laughs]?

Student [David Chadwick]: "The dull from the
sharp."

Mm-hmm. "Dull from sharp" or-

[Conversation in background between students: "Dull from sharp"
vs."Dull from wit."]

"Dull," you know, it means that-it is, you know, difficult to
translate. Jokon gekon, we say. Jokon means
"better-those who has," you know, "more appropriate capacity of
potentiality to understand Buddha's teaching" is someone who [is]
not only alert, you know, or sharp, or clever. The cleverness is
sometime barrier of-clever people sometime cannot understand
Buddha's teaching. "Some," you know, "appropriate potentiality,"
you know-that is Jokon. Gekon means, you know-Gekon
means "someone who-people who find it difficult to understand, to
accept Buddha's teaching." But this is not so important, you know,
in this sutra . This is [in] some rhetorical sense he says:

[Line 3] People discriminate the dull from the wit,

[Line 4] but true way has no patriarch of south or north.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi.]

You know, this is important [laughs]. "True way has no
patriarch of south or west [north]." No patriarch, you know,
of the Sixth Patriarch or Jinshu. Jinshu is good, and the Sixth
Patriarch is good. And Jinshu is good for someone who study things
literally, you know. And the Sixth Patriarch's teaching will be
good for some, you know, someone who has quick, sharp mind-
[partial word]- -minded fellow.

But although, you know, according to the people, you know,
teaching someone explained Buddha's teaching in detail, so that he
can understand words after words. But for someone it is necessary
to, you know, to point at the point without using so many words. So
it is up to the people, but not-but for the great teacher, you
know, there is no difference. Great teacher can be, you know, even
[if] he is really great teacher, there is no difference in his true
understanding. But his way of explaining teaching will be
different.

"The people discriminate the dull from the wit," or-"but true
way has no patriarch of south or north." Tozai mitsuni
aifusu. "Flows-flowed unseen." Unseen is this-mitsuni.
Mitsuni aifusu. Memmitsu no kafu.[8] This is mitsuni.[9]Mitsuni means, you know,
"not secret." Sometime it means "secret," but "unseen" looks like
"secret," but this "unseen" may not be so good a translation.
Mitsuni means "exactly," you know, "exactly"-without no gap
between the two.

Here the main purpose of this Sandokai is to explain
reality from both side. The title is Sandokai:San
means "many"; do means "one." And what is "many"? And what
is "one"? Many is one; one is many. If you really understand
reality, even though you say "many," each one of things are not
separated from the other, you know. It is closely related. If so,
it is one. But even though it is one, it looks like many [laughs].
So "many" is right, and "one" is right. So even though we say
"one," we cannot ignore, you know, various being like stars
and moons and, you know, animals and fish-the various being.

But although they are many, they do not exist separately; they
are not separated from each other; they are closely related. So
that is-from this point, we say they are interdependent. So
"one" is-when we, you know, discuss about the meaning of each
being, we say "many." We have many things to discuss. But if we
come to the conclusion, or if we come to the real understanding or
reality, you know, in fact it is just one. So all the discussion
will be included [in] one real understanding of things. So "one"
and "many" is very famous words. One and many.

And the other-another way to explain it, the reality, is
differentiation. Differentiation is [laughs] equality. Equality.
Equal value-things has equal value because they are different. You
know, if man and woman is same [laughs], "man" and "woman" has no
value. Because man and woman is different, "man" is valuable and
"woman" is also valuable. So to be different is to have value. So
in this sense, we have equal value-equal absolute value. Everything
has absolute value, which is equal to everyone. But usually, you
know, we are involved in the standard of evaluation, exchange
value, you know, materialistic value, or spiritual value, or moral
value. "Morally he is good," you know. "He is not so good." You
know, if you-because you have some standard, you can say, "He is
good." Moral standard will define the value of people. But the
moral standard changes always [laughs], so, you know, virtuous
person is not always so. If you compare [him] with someone who is
like Buddha, he is not so good [laughs]. So "good" or "bad" is
caused by some evaluation-standard. But the truth, you
know-things-because things are different, you know, because of the
difference, everything has its own value. That is, you know-that
value is absolute value. Mountain is not, you know, valuable
because it is high. Or river is not less valuable because it is
low. Because mountain is-because mountain is high, on the other
hand, you can say, because mountain is high, mountain is mountain.
And it has absolute value. The water is-because water runs lower
valley, you know, it is valuable. Because, you know,
mountain-quality of mountain and quality of the river is completely
different. Because it is different it is-it has equal value.
"Equal" means absolute value.

So if we say-if we evaluate things from absolute viewpoint, it
has equal value. So, you know, equality is, you know,
differentiation, according to Buddhism. Differentiation is
equality. So in usual sense, you know, differentiation is opposite
to equal, but we understand equality and differentiation is
same thing. And one and many is same [laughs]. If you think "one"
is different from "many," that is wrong-your understanding is too
materialistic and too superficial.

Anyway, so it says:

[Line 1] The true mind of the great sage of India

[Line 2] flowed unseen from west to east.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi-close to Masunaga's.]

This kind of true mind, you know, this kind of understanding of
reality started by Buddha, flowed unseen from west to east. Whether
you understand or not, what Buddha says is true. So "unseen from
west to east." But people easily get into confusion, you know,
because of the evaluation of things-discrimination. Dull from
wit-the wit. Dullness or sharpness. But from the standpoint of the
patriarch, you know, it is same. There is no-for the
Patriarch-Patriarchs-all the Patriarchs understand this point. So
there is no Northern Patriarch or Southern Patriarch.

Ninkon: nin, "human"; kon[10] is, you know, kon, is
kikon-it-ki-kon. And this is, you know, technical
term of Buddhism-kikon.[11] And sometime we say rikon.[12]Ri is "sharp,"
or someone who has advantage in studying or accepting Buddha's
teaching. Ri. Don is "dull." But here [in the
Sandokai], you know, [we have] ridon: "dull"-someone
who is dull has great advantage in studying Buddhism [laughs]. It
is not, you know, always dull person bad to study Buddhism.
Clever one is not always have advantage in studying Buddhism. But
temporarily we divide our human potentiality into rikon and
donkon.[13]
Dull one is good because he is dull [laughs]; sharp one is good
because he is sharp [laughs]. You cannot compare, you know, and you
cannot say which is good. Do you understand this point
[laughs]?

I'm not so sharp so [laughs] I understand very well [laughs,
laughter]. My master always called me, "You crooked cucumber!"
[Laughs.] "Crooked cucumber." The first-I was the last disciple of
my teacher, you know, but I became the first one [laughs] because
good cucumber ran away [laughs, laughter]. All the good ones run
away. Maybe they are too smart.

I was not smart enough to run away [laughs, laughter], so I was
caught [laughs, laughter]. That is, you know, for studying
Buddhism, you know, my, you know, dullness was advantage, you know.
If I were a sharp, you know, fellow, I should have run away
[laughs] with them [laughs]. When I was left alone, I was very sad,
you know: "Oh, no-" But when I left home, you know, I left home by
my own choice. I told my parents, "I will go." [Laughs.] And
they said, "You are too young, so you have to stay more here." But
I must go, and I left my parents, so, you know, I couldn't
go back. I could, but I thought I couldn't [laughs]. So, you know,
I have nowhere to go. That is one reason. Another reason was I was
not smart enough [laughs].

So, you know, smart one is not-haven't-smart one haven't always
advantage, you know, and dull one-dull person is good because he is
dull. We understand in this way. So actually there is no dull
person or no smart person. It is same. Anyway, it is not so easy
[laughs]. It is difficult. For the smart person, there is some
difficulty for smart person. For dull one, there is some
difficulty, you know, for dull person. For an instance, to study,
you know, he must study hard, and he must read one book over and
over again because he is not smart. But smart one forget [laughs]
quite easily, you know. He may learn it very quickly, but, you
know, what he learn does not stay so long for smart people's mind.
But dull people, you know [laughs], for dull one it takes time to
remember something, so over and over we should read it. If you read
it over and over and remember it, it will not go so soon. So, you
know, maybe same thing.

[Line 3] Ninkon ni ridon ari,

[Line 4] do ni namboku no so nashi.

"In the true way there is no Northern Patriarch or Southern
Patriarch." That is very true. That is, you know, Sekito's
understanding. By the way, Sekito was the-actually the Sixth's
Patriarch's disciple. But after the Sixth Patriarch passed away, he
became disciple of Seigen. That kind of things happens, you know,
very often. I have some disciples here, maybe, you know, but if I
die, those who cannot be-couldn't be my disciple will be disciple
of some of, you know, disciple of my disciple, you know. Sekito was
one of them like that.

Here, you know, to study Buddhism is not like to study
something, you know-it takes time. Until you accept the teaching
completely, it takes time.

And the most important point is, you know-you yourself rather
than your teacher, you know. You yourself study hard. And what you
receive from your teacher is the spirit of study, you know, to
spirit to study. That spirit will be, you know, transmitted from
warm hand to warm hand, you know. You should do it. That's all
[laughs]. There is nothing to transmit to you.

And what you learn is-maybe from books or from the other
teachers, so that is why we have teacher-master and teacher.
Teacher could be various great teacher. Master is one, and
we-master's disciple is-we call deshi, "disciple." And for
the-for the students, whether he is his disciple or not, the
student like this, like Zen Center. Some of you are-is my, you
know, disciple. Some of you are not my disciple. Then, those who
are not my disciple is called zuishin. Zuishin is
"follower," or-and he may stay, you know, pretty long time under
some teacher. Sometime longer than the period he stay with his
master.

My, my tea [incomplete word-"teacher"?]-when I was thirty-two,
my teacher passed away-my master passed away. So after that I
studied, you know, under [Ian] Kishizawa-roshi. So most of the
understanding, you know, I have is Kishizawa-roshi's understanding.
But-but my master is-Gyokujun So-on is my master.

So, anyway, in the true way has no patriarch of south or north.
True way is one, you know. [Sentence finished. Tape turned over.
It resumes with Suzuki-roshi and students laughing.] Our
practice is not to put [gather] something in your basket. We don't
force it, but it is rather to find something in your sleeve. What
do you have?[14]
But before you study, you know, hard, you don't know what you have
in your sleeve, that's all [laughs, laughter]. Buddha has the same
thing, and I have the same thing. "Oh! [Laughs.] It is amazing!"
you know.

So we must have-that is the spirit we must have, you know.
Anyway, you should study hard, whatever it is, whatever is said. If
you don't like what I say, you shouldn't accept it [laughs]. It is
okay. Eventually you will accept it [laughs, laughter]. If you say,
"No!" I will say, "Okay. Go ahead. [Laughs, laughter.] Try hard!" I
think that is the characteristic of Buddhism. Our, you know,
approach is very wide, and as a Buddhist you have big freedom to
study. And in what you say-whatever you say, it is okay, so there
is no [laughs] patriarch of south or north [laughs]. We know this.
Like Sekito says here: "Born, we clutch at things and later
compound our delusion by following ideals" [Masunaga's
translation]. And this is very-maybe very easy to understand, but
what he is trying to say here is the relationship or the important
teaching of Buddhism, you know. "Clutching at things"-it may be
better to say in this way: "Clutching at things" (I just, you know,
this is my translation, so you can change it)-"Clutching at things
is delusion." This is more literal translation. "Clutching at
things is delusion."

[Line 7] Ji wo shusuru mo moto kore mayoi.

[Line 8] Ri ni kano mo mata satori ni ara zu.

So:

[Line 7] Clutching at things is delusion.

[Line 8] And to recognize the truth is not always

enlightenment either.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi.]

It may be, but it is not always. "Clutching at things is
delusion, but to recognize truth is not always enlightenment." Or
you can say, "Recognize the truth is not enlightenment either."

"Clutching at things" means, you know, to stick to things, to
stick [to] many, you know, many things you see. Understanding each
being is different, you know, so, you know, this is something
special, you know. "He is something special." If you think so, you
will stick to him. That is, you know, not-that is illusion. But, on
the other hand, even though you recognize the truth, you know, that
everything is one, even though you understand in that way, it is
not always enlightenment, you know. It is just, you know,
understanding by your head, by your thought, by your thinking. Real
enlightenment include both. Enlightened person do not ignore things
and do not stick [to] things. And he does not even to stick to the
truth either. There is no truth which is different from each being.
Being each being itself is truth, you know. Truth is something, you
know, which is beyond, which is controlling each being. You may
think in that way, you know: "There is truth, like a truth of
gravitation," you know. The apple is the each things, so behind the
apple there is some truth which is working on an apple is the truth
of, theory of gravitation. Even though you understand things in
that way, that is not enlightenment, it says. This is the backbone
of all this-all of this Sandokai.

[Line 1] The true mind of the great sage of India

[Line 2] flowed unseen from west to east.

[Line 3] People discriminate the dull from the wit,

[Line 4] but true way has no patriarch of south or north.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi-close to Masunaga's.]

So far is, you know, he, you know-this is introduction, maybe.
Introduction about what he want to say here at this-under that
circumstances where there were various poliminous [polemic], you
know, understanding of which teaching-which school is better.

This is, you know-so far is the introduction, and-

[Line 7] Clutching at things is delusion,

[Line 8] and to recognize the truth is not enlightenment.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi.]

This is the, you know-oh, excuse me. I skipped, you know, to-I
changed the order of the sentence. In this translation, you know,
something should be, you know, in-the main backbone of the poem is
translated in the introduction. So [laughs] I think I have to
change the order. No, I am not changing, I [laughs] want to follow
the original text.

"Clear source":

[Line 5] Source of the teaching is clear.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi-close to Masunaga's.]

Source of the teaching is clear. And kept-

[Line 6] The streams of the teaching kept pure or unsullied.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi-close to Masunaga's.]

[S.R. unsure of pronunciation, so he spelled out "unsullied."
Students pronounced it.] And then, you know, come to this
sentence:

[Line 7] Clutching at things is delusion,

[Line 8] and to recognize the truth is not enlightenment.

[Translation by Suzuki-roshi.]

This is the teaching which was started by Buddha and kept
unsullied in various stream. Hmm. Okay? [Laughs.]

I think if you, you know, type this, you know, in
three-big-three-

Student A [David Chadwick]: Double-space.

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah, double-space or more. So that I can
change the order and, you know-

Student B [Lew Richmond?]: Roshi, couldn't we just work
from the Japanese and forget that translation?

Suzuki-roshi: Hmm?

Student B: Couldn't we just work from the Japanese and
forget that translation?

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah.

Student B: Throw away that translation and work from the
Japanese-from, like, you know, we had the biggest group [?]-what
we're learning is like-

Suzuki-roshi: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

David Chadwick: You probably know English much better
than [Reiho] Masunaga, you know.

Suzuki-roshi: [Laughs.] Uh-huh, yeah. I am trying
[laughs, laughter], you know. I am trying hard to follow the order,
you know, so that, you know, it is-if you translate it in fluent
English, you know, it will-you may find it difficult to explain it.
This is very, you know-the original poem is very, you know, full of
technical terms. And you cannot, you know, change it. If you change
it, you will lose, you know-it doesn't make, actually, much sense,
you know.

So even though it is difficult, I think we should follow the
original text. That is because I have to-I want you to understand
completely, I feel I have to follow the-even though it is
difficult-I want to follow the original text faithfully.

So maybe it is difficulty for me and for you too. So you can
forget all about Japanese, you know, but [laughs, laughter]-but as
you are reciting, you know, every morning, so I am trying to follow
the meaning of those words.

Student B: But when you explain to us, for instance,
San-do-kai-

Suzuki-roshi: Mm-hmm.

Student B: -San-do-kai-

Suzuki-roshi:Hai. Yeah.

Student B: -it's not so difficult for us to make it into
right English.

Suzuki-roshi: Oh. Oh.

Student B: When we understand what san means and
what do means and what kai means, we can make a
sentence out of it.

Suzuki-roshi: Uh-huh.

Student B: You follow what I mean?

Suzuki-roshi: Uh-huh.

Student B: But Masunaga, for instance, he says [the title
is], "The Union of the Spiritual and the Phenomenal Worlds." Now
that is not as meaningful to us. It's good English-

Suzuki-roshi: Uh-huh.

Student B: -but it is not as meaningful to us as
translating San-do-kai.

Suzuki-roshi: I see.

Student B: You understand?

Suzuki-roshi: Maybe so.

Student B: And then we make it into-then each one
of us will make it into a different sentence, ultimately. [Laughs,
laughter.]

Suzuki-roshi: Some, yeah. Maybe, you know, I think that
is easier eventually, you know, after all you [will] find it easier
to understand if we follow one by one.

Student B: Mm-hmm

Suzuki-roshi: And you are reciting it, you know, in
Japanese, so that is why I started to, you know, talk about this
one.