Right, right; no worries, most do!ー( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ It's offtopic anyway. If you'd like to know more about the Childfree lifestyle, feel free to PM me!

Ontopic though, I'm personally really frustrated (」゜ロ゜)」when people recommend simplistic casual games for young kids (and you see it more for young girls, for whatever reason.) Very young children are capable of learning and understanding much more complex systems than I believe most people give them credit for. I was playing my elder brother's copies of Wizardry, Might and Magic, and Final Fantasy not long after I could read, and I started reading very early!

Perhaps my own personal, anecdotal experience is the exception, rather than the rule; perhaps other children are dumb. (;¬_¬) I prefer to believe that people underestimate their kids, though, and that's why we have so many lazy, ignorant adults these days -- a kind of intellectual "learned helplessness".

Hmm, I'm getting sort of political again. Maybe I should stop posting in this thread! (≧σ≦)

I did a project for my MBA a few years ago for SOE to build two profiles, one for female gamers and one of what male gamers thought of female gamers. The results were interesting and parallel what you were suggesting earlier. The overwhelming response from the female respondents was two-fold, first that they like many of the same games that male gamers liked (but different aspects), and two that they preferred not to divulge their gender online...

To the first point, the main aspects that female gamers liked was the challenges, puzzles, and cooperative play, along with exploration. The majority really liked MMO's that offered a strong crafting, social, and exploring experience.. the combat was incidental, not a deterrent but not an incentive to play. In general they didn't like the pure violent games (ala BF1, CoD, etc), but that's not to say that some wouldn't play, just that there was a trend.

However, there was a specific backlash against girly games (i.e. Barbie-fied games) which emphasized pinks, pastels, and the traditional "girly" themes. They wanted the rich universes like WoW, FF, etc, and wanted games with in depth storylines and character.

The second point above speaks for itself (Guys are idiots)

To the OP, I'd look for games with good storylines, puzzles, etc. and depending on the age, it's up to you for the amount of violence you want your child to be exposed to..

Actually, it's an interresting topic, so unless it turns into a flamewar, is there something bad with talking about the sociological and polictal views on games for girl ? Not to mention the larger issue of the computer industry as a whole, although things are slowly changing it is still a quite skewed towards the male side no matter which part of the IT industry you look at. Although since many gaming houses can have different deparatments that focus on different things, I might think there is goo opportunity for some of the things to be decently balanced. Although on some companies I might sometimes wonder how many females are actually included in the design-teams that draft ideas and actually design the games supposedely made for them?

Then the question is drawing the line where sociological goes over into polictical, because for me, and I think most decent people here, that line can be pretty fluid depending on the topic. But talking on industry viewpoints should at least be safe I think ?

auxy wrote:Whoa, hella necroposted. Came in from the TR front page.It's brutally challenging, so it might be a bit hard for a seven-year-old, but maybe in a year or two -- and it will really give her a different experience than almost any other game out there. You might sneer at the "inappropriateness" of it (a concept I discard altogether, as innocence is a nonsensical psychological construct), but you can be sure she'll never forget it.\

I would hope more people would have the common sense to not throw a game like Dark Souls at a nine year old. It is one thing to challenge a child, another to throw something at them that has so many adult + obscure themes all together with no explanation or context. I won't go any further though because when I see someone with your choice of language and excessive use of ascii characters, I only see downhill discussion, disguised as "But i'm just trying to be civil, why aren't you..."

With the demons and runes and druidic stuff, not to mention hugely amoral solutions to certain problems -- like blowing up a guard with a barrel to make it look like an accident, his death serving the purpose of me not getting caught when I steal stuff from the townspeople afterwards. Even had a gypsy hooker thrown in for good measure.

I really must say, as a woman, I'm a little offended at the idea of games "for girls". (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ I grew up playing Quake and Street Fighter, so why can't other girls? I remember latching onto Chun-Li as one of my only examples in media of a strong, independent Asian woman standing up and competing with a bunch of burly men on their own terms. I think that kind of positive experience, with a character that girls can relate to in a traditionally male-dominated medium, is important -- and a lot more positive than limiting girls to "girls' games", which reinforce negative stereotypes and (speaking as a gamer, not just a woman) are generally terrible games. (*￣m￣)

I really think the Dark Souls recommendation is right on the money. (●ゝω)ノヽ(∀＜●)

It's brutally challenging, so it might be a bit hard for a seven-year-old, but maybe in a year or two -- and it will really give her a different experience than almost any other game out there. You might sneer at the "inappropriateness" of it (a concept I discard altogether, as innocence is a nonsensical psychological construct), but you can be sure she'll never forget it.

You played quake and streetfighter when you were SEVEN YEARS OLD?! (or did you just not read the OP? ) OMG WHO THE HELL WERE YOUR PARENTS? I wasn't allowed to play anything more sinister than sonic till I was ~10 at least. (then somehow was watching South Park happily by 12)

No recommendations for racing games? My fiance is "starting her gaming career" and told me that she prefers racing games. I happily obliged, we play DiRT Showdown together on the HTPC now. I figure if she develops an interest (or at least respect) for gaming, I get in less trouble when I want to play. As drucident suggested, the killing aspect of games doesn't interest her, I find mindless killing games less and less attractive myself. I need some sort of problem solving or strategic planning in games. I think that's the way the gaming industry is headed anyway.

More on topic with the OP, racing games offer a simple blend of adrenaline and fun that is perfect for the younger crowd in general. (heck, perfect for any age IMO) Could also help develop their driving techniques....maybe.

Portal 2 would be another good one that would be more mentally challenging

I ended up going with a couple of Nintendo games. One called Brats, and the other Pinkalicious. (she picked them out btw) She tried them both and didn't really like them.

She borrowed a couple of Nintendo games from her older brother and has really enjoyed them. Kirby Mass Attack, and some other Kirby game, as well as Plants v Zombies. She also likes playing Skylanders with her brother on the Wii. Good fun.

lilbuddhaman wrote:It is one thing to challenge a child, another to throw something at them that has so many adult + obscure themes all together with no explanation or context.

Isn't that why you're there, as the parent? To guide and explain? You know, "challenge" doesn't have to be merely "game difficulty". Challenging can also refer to emotionally, morally, or intellectually challenging (whereas games are usually just challenging in terms of execution; that is, hand-eye coordination and reflexes, or to put it another way, physically challenging.) Interestingly, in my experience, kids tend to have no qualms at all about doing horrible things to virtual characters and usually seem to take quite the glee in doing so. Food for thought.

lilbuddhaman wrote:I won't go any further though because when I see someone with your choice of language and excessive use of ascii characters, I only see downhill discussion, disguised as "But i'm just trying to be civil, why aren't you..."

Well, frankly, it seems to me like you're the one trying to tease out that response. Making discriminatory remarks based on the way I post and then using said remarks as a basis for discarding my entire point of view is pretty inflammatory. Not that I really care; nobody ever sees eye-to-eye with me on anything, really. Maybe because I'm short. ┐(´∀｀)┌ﾔﾚﾔﾚ

lilbuddhaman wrote:tldr: Dark Souls isn't for kids.

It's really exactly this kind of viewpoint that I'm railing against. There's just no reason Dark Souls can't be for kids, even little girls. It's a little violent, sure, but there's no point sheltering kids from it in any case anyway (I personally think a little more violence at an early age would help kids understand the cruel reality of the world so they don't become disconnected from it and start railing on about animal rights for food animals.) There are almost no sexual themes at all, and the language is downright clean, by modern standards. Boys will enjoy the hack-and-slash aspects of the game and the "conquering father" aspect might cause them to take a step back and think about life. Specific to my feminist viewpoint, a female player character can be built in all the same ways as a male player character, which I think is a good message, as is the more subtle message that the game implies: "most people aren't very pretty, and that has nothing to do with how capable you are" -- a very sharp contrast from the way the rest of society informs girls' perceptions of themselves. (」゜ロ゜)」

To digress a bit, you see it all the time, in games; look at World of Warcraft for the perfect example. The sexual dimorphism in the races in that game is astounding; the male Draenei are gigantic bulks of muscle, and the female Draenei are svelte, slender beauties suited for any catwalk. The male Trolls are massive, hunched-over beastly creatures, and the female Trolls are curvaceous human women with two toes and tusks. Even the Worgen, bestial wolf-people, aren't exempt from this bizarre dimorphism: the males are hulking brutes, and the girls are, well, prime furry fantasy material.（ﾉ´д｀）

I realize sex sells and the majority of players are male -- I also realize that, sadly, most female players would rather be pretty than realistic -- but it frustrates me that such a big company with such impact like Blizzard didn't take the chance to stand up and do something different, because they might have made a difference, if not in the market or society as a whole, at least in the minds of a few young girls who are not pretty and feel worthless because of it. The female players feel that way ("would rather be pretty than realistic") because our society teaches that being beautiful is more important than being capable; after all, the point of a woman's life is to simply snare a successful man, right? щ(゜ロ゜щ) Women are judged solely on the basis of appearance in many areas that don't make any sense at all; I've felt this pressure myself despite usually being outside the typical bounds of society for personal reasons I shan't discuss here. After all, I'm decidedly not looking to attract anyone, and yet I still buy cosmetics, and wouldn't dream of going to work without my 'face' on. 「(°ヘ°)

It's easy to say "That's just how our society is..." and hang up your hat and go home. This is what most people do; hell, it's what I've done most of the time. One person can't change anything, right? （￣～￣;）

I'm going to ignore the feminist rant, and just say that yes there are a multitude of sexual themes in Dark Souls. The gigantic crush-you-with-her-breasts boss being the most obvious one, and the various semi-nude enemies (that while not "sexual", have M-rating warranting body parts exposed). As well, if the child cannot be left to play the game unattended for a period of time, then it isn't appropriate for them. This is in contrast to a movie persay, where "PG" = parental guidance suggested. Dark Souls is a single player experience, and even being in the room with the child while they play doesn't imply you are able to focus your attention on their actions in it, or how it is interacting with the child.

As to what I said about the way you post, i'll just say it doesn't paint you in a positive light. Your rant hasn't helped either. You've stereotyped yourself in that regard, and likely going to get this thread locked.

Glorious wrote:Maybe this is the kind of thing we should talk about in R & P.

RickyTick wrote:Well...I was hoping it wouldn't go there, but some seem determined to send it in that direction.

druidcent wrote:I'm going to guess a mod will split out the R&P portion and send it over there... I hope..

I just want to say that it's a little frustrating that serious, on-topic discussion is immediately flagged in some people's minds as inflammatory, "R&P" (i.e. never to be discussed politely) material.（；￣д￣）

RickyTick wrote:As a Dad, I struggle sometimes with what to buy for my little girl, so I have ask for advice now and again. I appreciate the help.

I think that's really great, I really do! I think too many dads would just buy her whatever glittery Bratz game is on the shelf and assume she'll be happy with it. I think it's great too that your daughter told you she didn't like what she picked out! ヽ(‘ ∇‘ ) Propers to outspoken little girls!

lilbuddhaman wrote:The gigantic crush-you-with-her-breasts boss being the most obvious one, and the various semi-nude enemies (that while not "sexual", have M-rating warranting body parts exposed).

(。ヘ°) I don't think we played the same game. I don't recall anything like that in the game. Are you thinking of Demon's Souls?

lilbuddhaman wrote:As well, if the child cannot be left to play the game unattended for a period of time, then it isn't appropriate for them ... Dark Souls is a single player experience (...)

Who said anything about hovering over your child while they play?(・_・ヾ You made a comment about the mature and obscure things in the game that are, as you very correctly observed, often poorly or completely unexplained. I don't know how you were raised, but when I was little, when I didn't understand something, I didn't throw up my hands in defeat; I went and asked my elders, usually my older brother. You don't have to sit there with them while they play the whole game; most kids I know wouldn't tolerate that anyway. Still, if they don't understand something, why wouldn't they ask you about it, and why wouldn't you explain it?

lilbuddhaman wrote:As to what I said about the way you post, i'll just say it doesn't paint you in a positive light. Your rant hasn't helped either. You've stereotyped yourself in that regard, and likely going to get this thread locked.

I think that's your opinion, and I think you've just said some more unnecessary rude things. If you're offended by what I have said, I think it's best that you take a step back and look at why. ー(￣～￣)ξ

We try and keep all the impolite name calling out of the main forums.. There a some of us who only come here for the R&P forum (if you don't see it, look for the thread requesting access, anybody can get access, it's just opt-in). This helps keep the trolls away, and also means that most of the forums are kept full of useful information on threads instead of descending off-topic into flame wars..

On topic for this thread would be recommendations for and against games appropriate for 7 yro girls.. a little bit of why doesn't hurt.

Off-topic would be discussions on how to raise children.. that either belongs in the General forum or R&P..

druidcent wrote:(if you don't see it, look for the thread requesting access, anybody can get access, it's just opt-in)

Well, I'm not actually interested at all in that kind of discussion... (¬､¬)

druidcent wrote:On topic for this thread would be recommendations for and against games appropriate for 7 yro girls.. a little bit of why doesn't hurt. Off-topic would be discussions on how to raise children.. that either belongs in the General forum or R&P..

Okey, okey. Fair enough. (￣ェ￣;) If nobody else wants to discuss it, it's moot anyway.I only brought it up again because somebody else picked a fight.

yogibbear wrote:You played quake and streetfighter when you were SEVEN YEARS OLD?! (or did you just not read the OP? :P) OMG WHO THE HELL WERE YOUR PARENTS? I wasn't allowed to play anything more sinister than sonic till I was ~10 at least. (then somehow was watching South Park happily by 12)

Eheh, well, my parents are pretty old-fashioned; I wasn't actually officially allowed to play video games at all until I was 12. (Long offtopic story redacted.) Suffice to say that while I WAS playing those games at ~6-7 years old, I wasn't doing it with the blessings of my parents. (─‿‿─)

druidcent wrote:(if you don't see it, look for the thread requesting access, anybody can get access, it's just opt-in)

Well, I'm not actually interested at all in that kind of discussion... (¬､¬)

druidcent wrote:On topic for this thread would be recommendations for and against games appropriate for 7 yro girls.. a little bit of why doesn't hurt. Off-topic would be discussions on how to raise children.. that either belongs in the General forum or R&P..

Okey, okey. Fair enough. (￣ェ￣;) If nobody else wants to discuss it, it's moot anyway.I only brought it up again because somebody else picked a fight.

auxy wrote:I just want to say that it's a little frustrating that serious, on-topic discussion is immediately flagged in some people's minds as inflammatory, "R&P" (i.e. never to be discussed politely) material.（；￣д￣）

I think maybe you're misunderstanding what I was saying.

I never said "inflammatory," I certainly didn't mean that this kind of thing can "never be discussed politely." All I did was suggest that perhaps this discussion would be better conducted there. If only because I've had many such a discussion go that direction myself.

In fact, druidcent was likely referring to me when he said "There a some of us who only come here for the R&P forum."

At any rate, Captain Ned gave the OK, so you can just ignore everything I was saying anyway.

auxy wrote:Well, I'm not actually interested at all in that kind of discussion... (¬､¬)

No offense, but it seems like you are.

That's fine though, like I said, R & P isn't a bad word.

Really, If I'm saying anything, it's that I'd love to talk about it, but I'm afraid I'll get yelled at!

Edit: To be clear, I didn't mean to pick on you. If anything, lilbuddhman was the one being more ...assertive about it.

And I wasn't pointing to specifically to Glorious, he does spend most of his time in R&P..

As to the topic then, I would say more than girls or boys, it would be age related as to what I'd let my children (none yet, but hopefully soon) play/watch/etc. I'd think up to 4 or 5, I'd stick with learning/puzzle games, and keep violent type television/video games to a minimum. I would think racing games and such would be fine as well. As a general rule I don't think children under the age should be exposed to religious/violent themes.. Not to say there won't be exceptions, but that's why the ratings are guidelines. Without understanding or context child development can be seriously affected. Games that can challenge children without social undertones are fine.

Yea, you should... Preferrably in R&P forum, since people so "religiously" against kids seeing a piece of opposite sex's flesh or "violently" slashing a pixelized "monster" with an imaginary sword... Though this is a USA-based forum, so I am not surprised in the least But I digress - this thread has run its course, so yea, better start a new one for this specific discussion. Sorry for an offtopic comment

My subscription allows you people to exist on this site and makes me a better human being than you'll ever be

Personally, I wasnt so intererested in the child raising bits, but rather the games for girls and what constitutes interested gaming mechanics that fits females vs. males, etc, and that is more sociological then R&B. Although the child raising and sexual vs. violence content is definitely R&P since it more of a cultural/political phenomenon then the pure psychological issues I was more interrested in.