Warhammer Online - Preview @ HEXUS & WarCry

Before we even set foot in Paris, we knew a lot about WAR already. The marketing push has been hard to ignore and alongside screenshots, trailers, feature sheets and zone guides, we’ve been spoon-fed developer diaries fairly regularly since the game was announced in 2005. Make no mistake about it; the creators really, really want this game to succeed. The passion displayed by the EA Mythic staff for their game was infectious, if not a little predictable at times (we’ve never heard the word &lsquo;awesome’ hollered so many times in one day), but after sitting through hours of energetic explanations of WAR’s main features and having actually played the game ourselves, we’ve have to admit it, we don’t think they’re just &lsquo;talking-the-talk’ when they say that WAR “promises to be a game unlike any other.”

Mythic is still developing WAR's crafting system, and they were only ready to show a few aspects of the system. I learned about three gathering professions: butchering, scavenging and cultivating. Butchering allows players to cut up dead animals for components. Scavenging allows you to cut up dead humanoids for components … or maybe just rifle through their pockets. I like the cutting up version better. Cultivating allows you to grow seeds - found as loot drops or from other gathering professions - into useful items for the apothecary. The apothecary lets players make potions. Starting from a base ingredient that determines the effect, players can then add other items that change the duration or potency. You can make a highly potent but short-duration buff potion, perfectly suited for RvR, or you could make a long-lasting, moderately potent buff for questing or raiding.

One thing about crafting that appealed to me was the removal of the mechanic requiring you to be near a specific crafting station (a forge, anvil, loom, etc.) in order to create an item. Allowing players to make potions on the fly or craft a new weapon or piece of armor in the field removes a large part of the hassle and tedium involved. I'm glad that someone remembered that these games are supposed to be fun and not a second job.

One thing about crafting that appealed to me was the removal of the mechanic requiring you to be near a specific crafting station (a forge, anvil, loom, etc.) in order to create an item. Allowing players to make potions on the fly or craft a new weapon or piece of armor in the field removes a large part of the hassle and tedium involved.

Originally Posted by Ionstormsucks
Is this irony or are you serious there?

Irony. It is funny how people can enjoy a game that has an illogical story or inconsistent gameplay. An example being the removal of stationary equipment in order to create items in Warhammer Online.
These elements are crucial to my gaming experience, but yet people often prefer something that has been simplified to even the extent where logic has been removed.

Originally Posted by Asbjoern
Irony. It is funny how people can enjoy a game that has an illogical story or inconsistent gameplay. An example being the removal of stationary equipment in order to create items in Warhammer Online.
These elements are crucial to my gaming experience, but yet people often prefer something that has been simplified to even the extent where logic has been removed.

Same here… although one has to say that the whole thing about forging a blade or sword without an anvil in connection with WAR is not quite right. Right now only butchering, scavanging, and apothecary are implemented. Even at the press event in Paris Justin Webb only mentioned these three tradeskills, so I guess there is hope…

Originally Posted by Ionstormsucks
Same here… although one has to say that the whole thing about forging a blade or sword without an anvil in connection with WAR is not quite right. Right now only butchering, scavanging, and apothecary are implemented. Even at the press event in Paris Justin Webb only mentioned these three tradeskills, so I guess there is hope…

Originally Posted by Ionstormsucks
Same here… although one has to say that the whole thing about forging a blade or sword without an anvil in connection with WAR is not quite right. Right now only butchering, scavanging, and apothecary are implemented. Even at the press event in Paris Justin Webb only mentioned these three tradeskills, so I guess there is hope…

MMogs of today are more like themeparks with different skins than traditional computer games. Even though they might have different names and looks, the rides are still basicly the same in everyone.

I bet sooner or later ppl will be busy baking bread in WAR.

As for forges who needs them? Logic is not needed in game. They should use this standard on everything i.e why do you need a lake for fishing? Why not fish in dryland - or in battle while holding sword in one hand and fish rod on other. Simplifcation makes double fun.

There is a certain logic in removing the dependence on crafting stations. MMOs are ultimately about playing a system, not roleplaying a character or setting or world. Running back to town to craft arms and armour or smelt your ore is not perceived as something with narrative or immersive weight but as a step in a system. Removing that requirement really makes no change at all to the game, and people will still go to towns for other needs like banking and auctioning or finding crafters.

The WoW player in me understands the removal of needs for forges, the roleplayer in me thinks it's utterly absurd. Fortunately, both sides are not connected and are served by different sorts of games.

That said, a middle ground would be nice, where a blacksmith might be able to make himself a portable anvil and mini-forge. They can then craft on the fly but at the expense of having some inventory space taken up.

— You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

Well, I would still argue that this is because the system is fundamentally illogical. Most MMORPGs play like singleplayer games in a persistent world where the only difference is that you can play coop. We are all the same character, a hero.
If you want this kind of gameplay then in order to add logic you would have to dissolve the MMO and just make it party-based multiplayer coop. Like Neverwinter Nights from my understanding.

Ideally a MMO should be completely player-run. Developers should only deliver the framework, visuals and general overview. They shouldn't provide content. Those decisions should instead be taken by players who are then able to influence the game world. MMOs should be based on building societies.
That means a player could choose to specialize in gathering iron ore. He/she could then sell it to a player who is specialized in blacksmithing who perhaps has his/her own shop. In this kind of system simplifiying takes away possible gameplay. In this system you are not all supposed to be heroes. Combat players could sell their work as protection for caravans or by joining the police force or army (If there are different factions). There could be a political system. You could be a diplomat.
Universal quests and main stories are not part of this system. Hence = logic. But there could of course be a general goal for all players. To defeat an enemy for example. The difference is that you can do this by being a part of a larger system. By providing baked bread for the soldiers or for the lumberjacks.

EVE does this, I believe. You play a logical system in that game. I'm waiting for this kind of game that isn't set in space with your avatar being a spaceship. I need to control a human being.

Originally Posted by Asbjoern
Well, I would still argue that this is because the system is fundamentally illogical. Most MMORPGs play like singleplayer games in a persistent world where the only difference is that you can play coop. We are all the same character, a hero.
If you want this kind of gameplay then in order to add logic then you would have to dissolve the MMO and just make it party-based multiplayer coop. Like Neverwinter Nights from my understanding.

Yep, that's right. But you're making the mistake of putting RPG in the formula. There is no RPG in MMOs like WoW. They are action games you play with other people, that's it really.

Ideally a MMO should be completely player-run…….

Yes and no. Agreed that such an MMO could be interesting but it's not a good formula for *all* MMOs. Your ideas, while excellent, are not what draw people to playing an MMO, or rather draw the majority of MMO players.

I think the MMO genre has lots of room to do different things in, to give us different options and I hope that such a thing happens as MMOs are becoming more common and desireable by publishers. Like any video game, there are different people for different styles of games, but what needs to happen is for publishers to stop looking at WoW as a standard for subscription numbers or as a template for how a game should be.

EVE does this, I believe. You play a logical system in that game. I'm waiting for this kind of game that isn't set in space with your avatar being a spaceship. I need to control a human being.

I've never played EVE so I can't say. But between MMOs like WoW, EVE and Second Life there's clearly a diverse and large audience for the genre, so hopefully we'll see more branching and innovation taking place.

— You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

There has never been any amount of crafting in Warhammer as far as I know; maybe a little magical item crafting at high level in Fantasy Roleplay. It's been a long time since I played these though, and the game looks to be more quest & pvp based (or RvR as they keep saying).

Well I wouldn't expect WAR to have a lot in common with WFRP. I'd love to see a proper computer version of WFRP though, that'd be good fun.

— You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

My primary issue with all MMOs are that, unlike most singleplayer games, they don't have a purpose beyond simply advancing. Much like real life, you have to invent your own purpose and stick with it.

Problem is, that when MMOs become too much like real life in an effort to simulate reality, they place a spotlight on the core problem of being without purpose. Why would anyone want to work in a game, simply because it should be a reflection of reality?

It's simple enough, naturally, because the illusion must be maintained for immersion to work properly. Being very much a person who wants to be immersed when I play, I'm conflicted when it comes to realism over comfortable gameplay.

Games like Darkfall, that seem to simulate reality to a closer extent, will require a much stronger dedication on the part of the players for them to succeed. This means that a lot of the time spent in the game is going to be hard work, where as some MMOs attempt to reduce time spent to mostly entertaining tasks. Games like WoW, that try this approach will suffer from being obviously unrealistic and have overly forgiving mechanics. Crafting in WoW is little more than clicking a button and everyone around you can do the same, so the prestige-related gameplay is very much absent.

So, to me, it's all circular. My conclusion is that ultimately, the genre is just not for me. There is no game so far that has managed to balance these two approaches, and I very much doubt there ever will be. Even though I spent way too much time playing WoW, I only really had true fun during the first few months. The rest of the time was largely about chasing an ever elusive prize and half the time spent on that was frustration and resulted in a ton of wasted time. I just don't think the time versus reward balance is right, and I don't see anything happening to change that.

I think I'm just too focused on goal oriented activity, but that's such an integral part of me that I can't let it go. I have no idea what some people are doing playing MMOs, as some don't even have a goal or a need to achieve anything. I know, it's just a game and you're meant to have fun. But if you stop to think for a second and realise the amount of time spent on the hamster wheel, you might start needing the illusion of purpose - just as I do. If not, then I will never get why people would feel it's worth spending those precious hours, days, weeks, months, and years of your life in a fantasy.

This coming from a person that has played games since he was 6 years old, but hey, at least I could finish most of them and they had a story that ended

Originally Posted by Asbjoern
EVE does this, I believe. You play a logical system in that game. I'm waiting for this kind of game that isn't set in space with your avatar being a spaceship. I need to control a human being.

Id like a space mmog that flys like a space sim. The eve ships move just like the player characters in wow and you shoot missiles just like you shoot i.e fireballs with your mage.

Other than that EVE does have somthing great - the pvp system of territorial conquest is absolute superb. Its far better than anything any other mmog has ever offered (excluding ww2ol perhaps).