Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Or how about training in Aikido and doing freestyle...then one can understand what Chris and Tom are talking about. It is different than what you are talking about. Redefining Aikido to fit what you are teaching is cutting out big parts of it. Randori is part of Aikido. Being able to move with and blend with your ukes is important. Citing authority and saying something a million times won't make it different.

By the way, Tom, I could understand what you wrote perfectly. I wish I could write so elegantly in a language other than my native language.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

Or how about training in Aikido and doing freestyle...then one can understand what Chris and Tom are talking about.

Been there, done that. So, I have the experiences you're talking about *and* I have the experiences of training with "vetted" IP/aiki teachers *and* I have done the research. Have *you* trained with a "vetted" IP/aiki teacher. Have *you* done all the research? Can you go back through and actually use your research to uphold your ideals/theories/ideas? And not like David Soroko and just cherry picking one small quote, but actually finding multiple correlated items?

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

It is different than what you are talking about. Redefining Aikido to fit what you are teaching is cutting out big parts of it.

Yep, you bet it does. It's exactly the reason why most Modern Aikido lacks Ueshiba's aiki, why people around the globe think similarly to Chris Hein on "aiki", and why there has been a lack of modern day Ueshiba's, Shioda's, Tomiki's, Shirata's, Mochizuki's, etc. You keep redefining "aiki" to fit what you can do, rather than to define it how Ueshiba (and all his peers, his teacher, and various other martial greats) did.

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

Randori is part of Aikido. Being able to move with and blend with your ukes is important. Citing authority and saying something a million times won't make it different.

No one is arguing that randori isn't part of aikido. No one is saying that what Chris posted wasn't "important". It just isn't aiki. Can it be high level jujutsu? Sure. Can it be very effective? Absolutely. Is it aiki? No. If you have aiki, can you have the skills displayed by Chris' video? Sure. But, you can have them without aiki, too.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

Great googly moogly. You're trying to equate not being stabbed/cut from a weapon with "evading" in football? Really?

Or is this just another example of "cherry picking". You seem to be in a habit of doing that in this thread and then denying it and saying it isn't important to your usage of cherry picking.

How about doing the research and actually coming up with valid points regarding Ueshiba's aiki as compared to Hein's "aiki". I say Hein's "aiki" because he has yet to explain where he came up with his definition. There are tons of information out there on Ueshiba's aiki and how Ueshiba defined it. The two do not match.

I think the relevant common theme in both videos is that opponents intent is manipulated.
Of course the goal in one case is to score points and in the other to subdue an attacker, somehow I think this is as relevant as that one video is in colour, and the other not. You decide what you focus on.

Naturally the founder employs various strategies in the Asahi film including the direct entry you pointed out. The examples I chose weren't meant to imply that the strategy demonstrated in them are in any way exclusive to anything else. I think that that is different from the conclusion you chose draw from http://members.aikidojournal.com/pri...hei-ueshiba-2/

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

Now, look at 6:03-6:24. Do you see Ueshiba trying to misdirect his attackers so that they fall into each other? Instead, Ueshiba tosses them left and right through power and control.

To be fair, Mark, in that 1935 video he doesn't do anything like that, but in later post-war vids he does a variety of things like that to throw his ukes.

It's also worth noting that Ueshiba in the 1935 video doesn't look or move quite like post-war Ueshiba. In the 1935 video he always keeps his body stretched and full. His arms have that almost stiff looking quality that guys like Shioda were known for and he obviously evolved/conditioned himself beyond the need for that in his later years.

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

By the way, Tom, I could understand what you wrote perfectly. I wish I could write so elegantly in a language other than my native language.

Thanks for the indirect cheap shot

My comment to Tom was objective and was mostly based on him interpreting 'Valid martial movement' and 'External Jujutsu movement' as being two different things with no relationship - there were other things as well, but that is a good example. To me, we were not communicating due to that as well as having no common ground on the aiki definition - nothing personal and nothing negative in my comments; why can't you be the same way.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote:

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

This is very reasonable especially given the quotes on this thread, the founder himself was saying that. To me, the strong emotional reluctance to "share" Aiki presented here, is most interesting.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote:

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

You are right, there is no reason why people cannot have their own view of aiki - the hard part for the IP/IS group is that they all have had similar views on aiki as the other parties, but now have experienced something different that explains (and can show) the unusual power of Ueshiba where their former views did not - it is hard not to share this so others have the option of learning more about it.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote:

To be fair, Mark, in that 1935 video he doesn't do anything like that, but in later post-war vids he does a variety of things like that to throw his ukes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw
Ueshiba enters. At 1:04, the subtitles, "invite him to approach, a breeze stirs. Slice it through!" Not, "trick them into approaching, a breeze stirs. Get out of the way!"

Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote:

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

Ueshiba didn't care? Do you have the relevant research to show that? Ueshiba vehemently denied he was a man of religion and that he was a man of budo. Storms into the dojo and says you're not doing my aikido. But, yet, he doesn't care? And approve?

As I was discussing with someone the other day, if a professional math teacher was teaching your child that 2+2=5 and that 4*4=1, would you want them teaching your child? Or as someone else provided, if a swimming instructor couldn't actually swim, didn't know how to swim, and had never swam, do you want to place your child's life in the hands of that instructor to learn how to swim?

I'm going to redefine what that is. I'm now going to call it an "orange". You should let me because even though I'm wrong, well, you don't seem to care about that. From now on, when I reference an orange, you'll just have to wonder if I mean the object in the picture or an actual real orange. Seems fair to me. Every opinion is valid. Everyone gets to redefine whatever they want so that everyone gets an A. New York City, The Big Orange.

Sort of over the top, but do you get the picture I'm painting? Ueshiba had very defined views on aiki. If you're a professional aikido teacher, you would think that you'd at least try to understand, train, and do what the very founder of your art was doing.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

@ Mark: Thank you for your response...the thread has a different title than defining Aiki. I thought it was pertaining to Aikido because it was here and not in the thread about other arts.

I read the title and the first post. To quote:

"Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki."

It was a thread about defining aiki. If that's not what this thread was about, then I apologize for being off topic. But, it's hard not to take it that way, when you read the original post.

I guess if you don't think it's about defining aiki, then I'll ask Chris Hein just what his thread was about. So, Chris Hein, what was this thread about?

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote:

You are right, there is no reason why people cannot have their own view of aiki - the hard part for the IP/IS group is that they all have had similar views on aiki as the other parties, but now have experienced something different that explains (and can show) the unusual power of Ueshiba where their former views did not - it is hard not to share this so others have the option of learning more about it.

Greg

Regarding the unusual power of Ueshiba, Homma Gaku Sensei has an interesting explanation:

Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder, our respect for him was of course paramount. Especially towards the end of his life, if the Founder asked his students to "push against him as hard as they could", there was not one student among us who could do that. It was not that we were not able to physically push him, it was that we couldn't.

At the age of eighty-six, the Founder commanded so much respect for his life and accomplishments, that no student of any rank, even 7th or 8th dan, were able to breach this level of respect. Beyond the obvious differences in rank and experience, I feel this was part of the true "Ki" power the Founder possessed. It is understandable when looking at old photos of the Founder resisting the efforts of ten students pushing on his body to think it looks like magic. As one who was there, his power was derived from his presence, not from magic. At the height of his physical prowess, I have no doubt that he used technique to keep students from overpowering him. I attribute his powers at the age of 86 to real "Sensei power", the personal power he possessed after a life time of hardships and accomplishments. Not only in the world of Martial arts, leaders world --wide who have reached this level command this type of respect from those around them.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

I read the title and the first post. To quote:

"Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki."

It was a thread about defining aiki. If that's not what this thread was about, then I apologize for being off topic. But, it's hard not to take it that way, when you read the original post.

I guess if you don't think it's about defining aiki, then I'll ask Chris Hein just what his thread was about. So, Chris Hein, what was this thread about?

Hi Mark:
I agree...that is how I define what we do. I think Krystal is right.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Regarding the unusual power of Ueshiba, Homma Gaku Sensei has an interesting explanation:

Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder, our respect for him was of course paramount. Especially towards the end of his life, if the Founder asked his students to "push against him as hard as they could", there was not one student among us who could do that. It was not that we were not able to physically push him, it was that we couldn't.

At the age of eighty-six, the Founder commanded so much respect for his life and accomplishments, that no student of any rank, even 7th or 8th dan, were able to breach this level of respect. Beyond the obvious differences in rank and experience, I feel this was part of the true "Ki" power the Founder possessed. It is understandable when looking at old photos of the Founder resisting the efforts of ten students pushing on his body to think it looks like magic. As one who was there, his power was derived from his presence, not from magic. At the height of his physical prowess, I have no doubt that he used technique to keep students from overpowering him. I attribute his powers at the age of 86 to real "Sensei power", the personal power he possessed after a life time of hardships and accomplishments. Not only in the world of Martial arts, leaders world --wide who have reached this level command this type of respect from those around them.

I have read Homma's stuff and agree that is probably what his perspective would have been from his experience later in Ueshiba's life. Other Uchideshi also talked about taking it easy on the old man later in his life as well, but none of that explains what was going on early in his life when non-students of other arts were amazed by his power - those people did not have any reason to hold back on anything. Ueshiba's peers during those early days such as Sagawa and Horikowa had the same reputation for unusual power.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote:

You are right, there is no reason why people cannot have their own view of aiki - the hard part for the IP/IS group is that they all have had similar views on aiki as the other parties, but now have experienced something different that explains (and can show) the unusual power of Ueshiba where their former views did not - it is hard not to share this so others have the option of learning more about it.

Greg

Greg, thank you. I'm NOT singling you out, or anybody in particular, when I say that as a lurker on this thread my reaction is that"sharing this so others have the option..." is very different from the bludgeoning tone I'm reading in this thread. I don't feel like I'm reading reasoned arguements no matter how much "evidence" by way of video links either side posts; it feels like reading an utterly pointless shouting match.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote:

To be fair, Mark, in that 1935 video he doesn't do anything like that, but in later post-war vids he does a variety of things like that to throw his ukes.

It's also worth noting that Ueshiba in the 1935 video doesn't look or move quite like post-war Ueshiba. In the 1935 video he always keeps his body stretched and full. His arms have that almost stiff looking quality that guys like Shioda were known for and he obviously evolved/conditioned himself beyond the need for that in his later years.

If people want to call that misdirection and "catching" someone or their intent "aiki" why not just let them do it? Ueshiba didn't really seem to care too much as he did it himself and to some degree he seemed to approve of people practicing with that intention.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Hi folks,

I am closing this thread (perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently) to review its content, tone, and direction.

I've been out of town and otherwise indisposed and super busy for the past little while, so I'm getting to this doing a bit late. To say the very least, I can't say I'm very pleased with some of what I am reading here.

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

I was just about to post my reply when Jun closed the thread. If he chooses to re-open it, hopefully he can merge my reply back into it:

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

Ueshiba didn't care? Do you have the relevant research to show that? Ueshiba vehemently denied he was a man of religion and that he was a man of budo. Storms into the dojo and says you're not doing my aikido. But, yet, he doesn't care? And approve?

From what I've read and seen here, I have just as much relevant research as you do. We can go into that elsewhere if you'd like. You reuse the "this is not my aikido" quote like it exists in a vacuum and we don't have anything else to read or look at from the man. We have videos of him laughing and taking falls for kids as he teaches them Kokyunage. Are we to believe that they were doing "his aikido" and he approved of that, yet disapproved of everything else that was going on at hombu? We have examples of him awarding rank to random people because they had good aiki. Are we to honestly believe that they were exhibiting the full set of skills that he had or that he saw just enough of a hint of something in them that he felt like recognizing it? For someone who had such clearly defined views on what aiki was, he sure seemed to find aiki in a lot of places and it can't be because what they were doing lined up perfectly with what he was doing. Heck, just look at Tohei, the man whom he bestowed the proverbial brass ring upon. Anyone who does IS/IP training long enough can pretty clearly see that Tohei's skill set, not his techniques, is missing some of what Ueshiba did. Even if you don't understand what, you can see it in how they move and Tohei seems much more linearly driven than Ueshiba. He also had other students who were going out calling aiki this or that and he knew of it and whether he approved or not, he sure never seems to have pulled any of them to the side and said "psst, hey, I really like you, so I want to tell you that this crap you're spreading, isn't really aiki. Check this out". He saw that many of them were chasing that external, deceptive, "catch them unaware" thing and calling it aiki and he let it slide? That's hard for me to buy personally. Especially considering that he seemed to have some genuine relationships with some students, people he liked and felt some sort of connection too, yet here they are out spreading aiki that is significantly different than his own and he, being unhappy about it, doesn't bother to correct them? again, hard to buy.

The bouncing ball of logic suggests to me that his views of what was or was not aiki were, at least in his later life, not as clearly defined or set in stone as selected quotes might indicate or at the very least he was willing to accept things as aiki that were similar but different to his own.

Quote:

Sort of over the top, but do you get the picture I'm painting? Ueshiba had very defined views on aiki. If you're a professional aikido teacher, you would think that you'd at least try to understand, train, and do what the very founder of your art was doing.

I get the point you're driving at, but I don't think this is quite an apples to apples comparison, for the reasons I've outlined above.