kej wrote:No, I'm not afraid (LOL). GaijinPunch is a friend of mine, and when I signed up to his forums I made it a point not to clutter up his threads with any quarrels. Since I saw you posted here, I decided to use a different screen name to post peacefully.

Gotta love how I even get the people to use "screen names" for other forums, then. Especially if they're their friends'.

By the way, I have to thank you for your argument for the transliteration of "Chi no Ronde". I used it in a Morphology class I taught last year as an example of how not to do linguistics. Since everyone in the class had had basic linguistic training (a few years worth of phonetics, phonology, syntax, and general linguistics), they could easily see how wrong you were, and how you didn't know what you were talking about. It was a great educational tool, so thanks.

You're welcome, but seriously, all this time and explanations and you're still missing that 'rondo' and 'ronde' both share the very same kana form? And do you REALLY teach the language? Now _I_ am afraid!

Sometimes showing students something that is horribly wrong is even more useful than just showing them what is right.

kej wrote:Yes, I am aware 'rondo' and 'ronde' share the same kana. That is irrelevant, as I stated long ago. We are talking about transliteration here, and it is not a two-way street, it is a one-way street. When going from Japanese kana>romaji there is only one answer: 'rondo'. Using "ronde" is a translation, not a transliteration.

And, as I stated long ago, that's bullshit. Because when you are romanizing 繝ｭ繝ｳ繝

kej wrote:That's not transliteration. I'm sorry you are unable to understand this.

Maybe I'll be able if you care to give a reasonable explanation to what's exactly that 'Muchi-Muchi Pork' you like to use then.

Actually, ronde and rondo are both in the English lexicon, as both are listed in the OED as French loans. So we do not know whether the Japanese borrowed them from French or through English.

More bullshit. You did know that it had to be from French since you 'conceded' that 'the interpretation of "ronde" is not impossible' and the English usage for 'ronde' is totally unrelated to the kanji 'rinne', which would leave no room for the pun (which, again, is the point of this discussion). Stop the idiotic arguments once and for all.

Recap wrote:Maybe I'll be able if you care to give a reasonable explanation to what's exactly that 'Muchi-Muchi Pork' you like to use then.

Well, Muchi Muchi Pork is a translation (leaving onomatopoetic Japanese words in situ in a title is a stylistic decision in translation, and also because they are often difficult to translate properly.

'Muchi Muchi Pork' can't ever be a 'translation' because 'Muchi Muchi' is not English nor anything non-Japanese. It doesn't matter it's an onomatopeia nor that it's difficult to translate; no English speaker would ever understand it, so you just can't call it 'translation' at all.

A true transliteration would be 'Muchi Muchi Pooku'. I never said it wouldn't (but with your view of transliteration, you would write it as 'pork', right?). The main reason why I use "pork" is that it is easier to type, less semantically ambiguous, and the official Cave documents on the game always write the kana "pooku" in roman letters as "pork", never "pooku".

So please, consolidate. If you accept 'Muchi-Muchi Pork!' or 'Doki-Doki Idol Star Seeker' (or 'Akumajou Dracula', or 'Mizubaku Adventure', or any of the hundreds of similar examples everybody uses today) for whatever the reason you have to accept 'Chi no Ronde' (in the _hypothetical_ case that it had been the French 'ronde' and not the italian 'rondo' the word they took). Which just shows that your argument about being or not a 'true transliteration' was totally out of place since even you tend to ignore it whenever you're writing a Japanese title, much like everbody does. My first point.

Transliteration norms are there to fall back on when you have no other recourse. For example, with "Espgaluda", no one writes it as "Esupugaruuda"(the true transliteration of the Japanese title), as the official documents use "Espgaluda".

You obviously need a bit more of Japanese video-game culture. There are lots of cases where there are no 'official documents' at all to find a Japanese title written in romaji despite being clearly an English form. Despite that, people try to figure it, given the evidences of the Japanese authors using English or foreign words for their titles (in spite of the usage of Japanese characters). Sometimes it's easy, and sometimes it isn't, hence debates such as the 'Chi no Rondo/Ronde' one do emerge. You also fail to understand that the Japanese do indeed invent lots of titles in _romaji_ and later, they transliterate them to kana forms to make them easier to read and remember. Such is the case of 'Espgaluda'. None writes it as 'Esupugaruuda' not because the existance of the 'official documents', but because that's an aberration as a transliteration. The word, once again, is _not_ Japanese (if I'm not wrong it's a combination of ESP and the hindu 'Garuda'), much like 'Ronde'. If you had use 'transcription' instead of 'transliteration', maybe what you wrote there wouldn't be the enormous pile of bullshit it currently is. My second point.

The fact remains there are no Konami documents on "Chi no rondo" which write it in romaji as "ronde". That's the problem.And when you have no evidence, you cannot make such a claim as the one you are making.

I knew you were slow, but that much? I've stated like three times in this very thread that indeed I was wrong and it's 'Chi no Rondo' and not 'Chi no Ronde', though technically it could have been very well 'Chi no Ronde' given the lack of official sources. I'm using the latter just as an _hypothesis_ to explain that your 'true transliteration' shit is just that.

Regardless, even if you can find evidence for "ronde" somewhere, that still is not a transliteration of the kana, and that's the core idea you seem unable to grasp. It would be a translation of the kana.

No, I get it. That's still the same bullshit you're using since the old Shmups Dot Com thread. The problem here is not what I'm able or unable to grasp. The problem here is that you fail to remember that 繝ｭ繝ｳ繝

kej wrote:Well recap, I officially give up on you. I know you think you're right, and you're going to keep replying as such no matter what I say, and that's fine. I honestly don't care very much.

Please keep in mind I am a professionally trained linguist with an MA in linguistics, and I'm finishing up my PhD in Linguistics. It is my job, it is my life really. You are not a professionally trained linguist. As far as I can tell you're just some random fellow on the internet who thinks he knows everything. I do know more about this subject than you, and I'm sorry that you will probably never be able to admit that.

LOL. Mighty arguments, yours. For being such a 'random fellow' you're learning too many things from myself. And not only about gaming, as this thread shows quite amusingly.

I stopped posting in forums a few weeks ago (though I still check several every now and then) but I have to butt in here and just say that I love you guys.

I love recap because he behaves just like I do on the internet, in so many ways, and I really seriously love even twe, even though he is a fucking annoying asshole who, if I ever happen to meet in real life, I'll enjoy beating the crap out of.

The point being, you two care enough about such insignificant details (and about saving face on such a tiny forum) that you will check this godforsaken thread several times a day just to answer each other's venom-dripping replies.

I respect that! Both your pettiness and your deep interest in such an insignificant matter!

Indeed, I am inspired by it.

But anyway, I used to post like you guys... for about two years. And then one day I realized that, in real life, I only engage in discussion with friends, or at any rate with people with who I maintain a relationship of mutual respect.

So why on earth do I go into discussions on the internet with strangers for whom I have not the slightest bit of respect for? I asked myself.

Indeed, with strangers whose sheer stupidity and lack of manners disgusts me to the very core.

Hence, I stopped posting in forums (with the exception of mine, which I control completely, and which is open only to friends and to people I respect, and to strangers who come in with respect).

But yeah, whatever. I wish you both best of luck with your endeavors on the internets.

icycalm wrote:I love recap because he behaves just like I do on the internet, in so many ways, and I really seriously love even twe, even though he is a fucking annoying asshole who, if I ever happen to meet in real life, I'll enjoy beating the crap out of.

But anyway, I used to post like you guys... for about two years. And then one day I realized that, in real life, I only engage in discussion with friends,

The irony being the above post would be considered by most to be pretty similar to trolling, or something you "used to" do. I understand why people get worked up in the forums, but you basically just insulted and threatened someone you've never met in person. Seems to me someone that would only engage in discussion in real life, would also only do the aforementioned in person as well.

And, as coincidence would have it, I've met both of you, on more than one occasion... and am probably the only one here or at shmups that has (I would think).

Rade wrote:Finally received a reply by posting in a thread at that Gaijin forum:

Gaijin Punch wrote:The irony being the above post would be considered by most to be pretty similar to trolling, or something you "used to" do.

I never used to troll. In fact I don't even know what trolling means -- and neither does anyone else. Trolling is one of those labels like "terrorism" which people attach to other people who they happen to disagree with.

What I used to do was to defend my positions against the masses of ignorant, uncouth people who inhabit videogame forums. And yes, it often got ugly. But this is what happens when people who don't respect/like each other get into discussions/arguments... When you fight with monsters, etc.

Now you may judge my post -- and my insulting, threatening behavior towards twe -- on its own, but that would be a mistake. I didn't just wake up one day and decide to be rude to twe, you know. There's a bit of history there, which you and anyone who would see my post as trolling would be ignoring.

As for this:

Gaijin Punch wrote:Seems to me someone that would only engage in discussion in real life, would also only do the aforementioned in person as well.

I didn't say that I only engage in discussion in real life.

I still discuss things with people on the internet. But only with people I respect -- and in an a private environment which is not liable to be invaded by mouthbreathing hordes at any given moment.

But as for threats of violence...

I can threaten people with physical violence in person, sure. But I can also do that over the phone, on the internet, via mail or smoke signals (e.g. "Bitch, if I ever see you again in the street I'll kill you!").

I don't see anything wrong with that. If you are insinuating that this implies cowardice, well, it may and it may not. It depends on the person.

icycalm wrote: I didn't just wake up one day and decide to be rude to twe, you know.

Curiously enough, that line describes pretty accurately Twe's behaviour towards myself. Unless I met him on any other forum besides Shmups Dot Com where he used just another 'screen name' of his, that is.

@Icycalm: I know, it just seemed kind of silly to communicate over the internet to describe how silly fighting over the internet is (a very summed up generalization of your statement, I know... but still).

I totally understand what you are saying though... in the end, it's a word. Actually, it's less than a word. It's part of a title of a 15 year old video game. Hardly worth my time.

If you are insinuating that this implies cowardice,

Not cowardice... again, irony in regards to your post. That's all.

@Recap & Icycalm: Neither of you have ever been very wavering in your opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you're as adamant (and often condescending) as you two are known to be, there's going to be some backlash. Not saying you're doing anything wrong, but the animosity is understood. I would still rather read any of your posts than the painfully verbose, unobjective "love in" posts which places like Shmups and Digital Press have way too much of.

God knows I have hoards of people that would probably like to take a swing at me. Seems I can't go a day w/o making some completely useless post on shmups that only the "asshole of the group" would say at the end of a conversation. I even got a "Why does Gaijin have to be a dick in all his posts?" reply. Probably stupid behavior for someone that is trying to run a side business w/ communities like that. I just gotta be me though.

I will say that I would award the thread to twe/kej though. When he joined like 2 years ago, he said he'd use one of his other names specifically to avoid turning my forums into a flame garden. (It was during the same time he and Recap had a run-in at shmups). He has clearly stood by the statement... regardless of his motives.

And for those that think using different names is childish, cowardice, or whatever: Up until recently, the 2nd highest poster here (Azazel, who only lurks on occasion AFAIK) uses multiple aliases. Lots of people do this. I don't think it's that strange.

Rade wrote:Finally received a reply by posting in a thread at that Gaijin forum:

icycalm wrote:I never used to troll. In fact I don't even know what trolling means -- and neither does anyone else. Trolling is one of those labels like "terrorism" which people attach to other people who they happen to disagree with.

Nein.

Trolling, in the proper sense, is posting a typically insincere message with the specific intent of starting a heated (especially autonomous) argument or at the very least, causing annoyance or negative reactions in others for the amusement of the person doing the trolling. It is often misapplied to posts which are not truly trolls but are simply contrary opinions.

Those of us who have seen The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring know what an amazing director Peter Jackson is. When I learned that there apparently was to be a sequel, I was overjoyed. However, Peter Jackson has decided to tastelessly name the sequel "The Two Towers". The title is clearly meant to refer to the attacks on the World Trade Center. In this post-September 11 world, it is unforgiveable that this should be allowed to happen. The idea is both offensive and morally repugnant. Hopefully, when Peter Jackson and, more importantly, New Line Cinema see the number of signatures on this petition, the title will be changed to something a little more sensitive.

Sincerely, The undersigned

Klerck commonly spread around a video of the World Trade Center towers collapsing set to Yakety Sax (as made famous by the Benny Hill Show), so he had no real connection or concern for the 9/11 incidents. He simply noticed that PetitionOnline would let you start a petition for practically anything and saw a potential gag.

In my forums history are websites where trolling, flamewars, personal attacks, etc. were the norm, so I have a poor frame of reference when shmupsforumites complain about anything being heated.
My first reaction is to fetch the popcorn :(

Gaijin Punch wrote:I totally understand what you are saying though... in the end, it's a word. Actually, it's less than a word. It's part of a title of a 15 year old video game. Hardly worth my time.

Actually, the subject was not 'the word' itself. What we're discussing there is transliteration from kana. I was going to tell you that, as I do it every day, not just for my site, but for other sites too (usually taken as reference by many others), it indeed is worth my time, but the truth is the whole Twe thing was more about showing the blatant idiocy involved in his arguments, since I knew from the beginning he had nothing intelligent to say on the subject. Probably not worth, yeah.

@Recap & Icycalm: Neither of you have ever been very wavering in your opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you're as adamant (and often condescending) as you two are known to be, there's going to be some backlash.

Just to point that when you're discussing facts there's no place for flexibility. Much like when you're discussing with assholic retards, there's only place for either insults or condescension. I use to prefer the latter, indeed.

I will say that I would award the thread to twe/kej though. When he joined like 2 years ago, he said he'd use one of his other names specifically to avoid turning my forums into a flame garden. (It was during the same time he and Recap had a run-in at shmups). He has clearly stood by the statement... regardless of his motives.

Yeah. He's good at editing posts aftermath, too.

And for those that think using different names is childish, cowardice, or whatever: Up until recently, the 2nd highest poster here (Azazel, who only lurks on occasion AFAIK) uses multiple aliases. Lots of people do this. I don't think it's that strange

Strange or not, coward or not, it's just not respectful with the other members. I don't believe I need to explain why.

It's just this faceless medium that sometimes brings out the worst in people. I am sure that if you, me, Recap, Paul and others were to meet in Akihabara to go around playing arcade games we'd have a great time.

Which at the end of the day is all there has to be said on the subject. If only we could keep this in mind while discussing whatever it is we are discussing, things would be much better.

incognoscente: there are all sorts of things that I believe are wrong about your definition of trolling, but, man, I just don't have the energy right now... perhaps another day?

Gaijin Punch wrote:Well, that's tricky since I have a no-ban policy. I've never banned a proper user (only Spambots). I do, however, have another policy that EOJ I think borrowed from me when he name youd Resident Fuckwit. gamengai has a member w/ the title "Resident Fuck You". Recap has pissed off most of the long term posters at gamengai, but his account is fully functional. He just doesn't use it now. Of course, he gets poked fun at until the cows come home when he does come by, but that's rare.