btw, the play that killed this game for me was when we were down 82-75 and rip got open for a mid-range jumper along the baseline. the defender was coming out at him and jmax was completely alone and unguarded under the basket...no one within 10 feet of him. instead of passing for the "thunderdunk", rip tries to get his own and jacks up a shot that wildly misses and produces a long rebound.

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That was pretty glaring. The only thing I could think of was that once Rip saw him open, he calculated that it was too late to throw the pass. He also probably imagined Maxiell getting fouled an figured that throwing up a 30% shot was better odds than having Max go to the line.

Besides the dunk stopper, the other fouls were obviously not intentional.

...
The extra fouls that Amir commits are all on help defense. The overall defensive numbers show that his help defense dramatically decreases the opponents overall shooting percentage.

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I don't really disagree with you on Amir's value. I'd just like to see him on the court some more to see once and for all if he can sustain that level playing real starters minutes. Should Curry pull him after two fouls per half? - don't know, but he's been pretty consistent about doing it, so maybe the kid just needs to figure it out and get himself under control.

No, he's not fouling intentionally, but that still doesn't make many of his fouls smart, i.e., not dumb. I think it was the first one last night - Amir chasing his man across the floor, no one else even in the camera shot, man stops, and Amir runs right over him - no reason for it other than clumsiness, no positive value to it. He helps the other team get into the penalty, and provides a reason, whether reasonable or not, for the coach to pull him.

Geez Amir, you got to learn to channel the aggressiveness if you want to play 30+ minutes. You have to control it, not the other way around. In my opinion, whether that happens will more than anything else determine his future in the league.

Dumb nonetheless and why commit them if you know you'll get pulled after four? If that's the rule (and it as been enforced pretty consistently), why knock yourself out of the game with inconsequential fouls?

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Please see my "too much free chili/ Use your darn fouls" post.

If we are not going to foul someone waltzing down the lane...? I admit Amir still has to figure out where and when to use some of his but I still don't understand why he is not allowed to play after getting 4 fouls?

When players tend to suck, you cut them and keep freaking looking around for talent. Joe IS telling his coaches to play Amir. And to think many posters crucified Flip Saunders for the "he's not communicating on the floor" line? Flip knows. He's coached long enough to know that someone blows.

And the "they're tired excuse" is just that. It's tired. Sure we can't play guys 48 minutes per game, but quit acting like they are a bunch of 50 year old alcoholics sitting around their couch all day. And you know what, EVERY PLAYER that has ever play decent minutes has hit a wall. Nobody is fresh all the time! When they are not playing or practicing, they are getting pampered (not to mention Arnie Kander is a part of the staff) Last year the Big 3, headlined by Paul Pierce and his 60 percent body fat, played HEAVY minutes all season long, and actually MORE against Lebron James. All of those guys are 30 plus.

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The way we look on the floor with Amir and his + impact on the team don't support your view that he "blows".

And it's not about building around Amir. Amir happens to be on our team. He happens to be a young guy on our team. If you feel we get more out of the rebuilding process by playing the Vets the requisite 35+ a game, i don't see it. Generally, when you're rebuilding the point is to find out what you have. Since Amir is no going to get us Tim Duncan, it might be wise to throw him out there and let him succeed or fail (for the sake of this forum as much as the team)

These are great. Makes me feel not so nuts for my opinion on what i see on the floor.

Geez Amir, you got to learn to channel the aggressiveness if you want to play 30+ minutes. You have to control it, not the other way around. In my opinion, whether that happens will more than anything else determine his future in the league.

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I don't know if i would call it learning to control his aggressiveness. While some of his fouls are of the stupid variety (although i believe they call absolutely everything on him for some reason; he has rookie status to the 10th degree), i would argue that alot his fouls are a product of our bad defense. Like stated above, the difference with the other bigs is they just let the opposing player score or simply choose not to foul.

The only big we have that has a great of mix of knowing when to foul and still play good defense is Sheed. And even in that aspect, he gets away with contact b/c of his reputation.

as a lit person, i can't help but notice the interesting slip: quant for quaint. We may well be quaint, but perhaps you wish we were more "quant" (a non-word in English calling to mind the Latin roots of quantitative (quantum, meaning "how much")? Quaint, incidentally, has its roots in the old french cointe, meaning cunning, and from in the Latin cognoscere, meaning "to know".

'nuff said.

p.s. I'm guessing that a certain quaint lit person we both know is riding pretty high today after UNC's beatdown of duke last night.

I don't really disagree with you on Amir's value. I'd just like to see him on the court some more to see once and for all if he can sustain that level playing real starters minutes. Should Curry pull him after two fouls per half? - don't know, but he's been pretty consistent about doing it, so maybe the kid just needs to figure it out and get himself under control.

No, he's not fouling intentionally, but that still doesn't make many of his fouls smart, i.e., not dumb. I think it was the first one last night - Amir chasing his man across the floor, no one else even in the camera shot, man stops, and Amir runs right over him - no reason for it other than clumsiness, no positive value to it. He helps the other team get into the penalty, and provides a reason, whether reasonable or not, for the coach to pull him.

Geez Amir, you got to learn to channel the aggressiveness if you want to play 30+ minutes. You have to control it, not the other way around. In my opinion, whether that happens will more than anything else determine his future in the league.

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And I think this is all we "Team-Amir" fans are looking for? He has a positive impact on the game when he is on the floor, he's only 21 years old, he is aggressive and energetic and he is on the squad.

Let him sink or swim but don't limit his minutes because of his aggressiveness. I see complaining posts all the time on here about the team not being hungry, motivated or whatever. Here is a guy that is motivated and willing to jump over or through guys to get a rebound for the team. Nobody else besides Max shows that willingness.

I don't think he will ever make an all-star team unless he really, really, really works on his offensive game but right now he can get a rebound and defend. Let him do it. He will figure out the foul thing with more playing time.

Every championship team needs a role player that is willing to go after the ball wherever it is and try and stop the other team from scoring even if it results in a foul.

Think Perkins, Powe, Ben, Varejo, etc. These players HELP their team win by doing the little things. We have that player on our roster and elect not to use him to the fullest extent. Instead we get the diminishing returns from Sheed and Dice from riding them for too many minutes consecutively.

Let him sink or swim but don't limit his minutes because of his aggressiveness.

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They're not limited because of his aggressiveness. They are limited because he gets 3 fouls within the 1st 18 secs he's on the floor. If he could produce a fouls per minute avg less than the speed of light, he'd play more.

as a lit person, i can't help but notice the interesting slip: quant for quaint. We may well be quaint, but perhaps you wish we were more "quant" (a non-word in English calling to mind the Latin roots of quantitative (quantum, meaning "how much")? Quaint, incidentally, has its roots in the old french cointe, meaning cunning, and from in the Latin cognoscere, meaning "to know".

'nuff said.

p.s. I'm guessing that a certain quaint lit person we both know is riding pretty high today after UNC's beatdown of duke last night.

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Shhhhh - I'm not sure she knows.

No slip, satire. You know, as in quant-jocks, from one of those heavily quantitative MBA programs, or from a heavily quant social sciences program. Them what do research for the purposes of getting data to play with and model rather than research to expand the bounds of human knowledge.

They're not limited because of his aggressiveness. They are limited because he gets 3 fouls within the 1st 18 secs he's on the floor. If he could produce a fouls per minute avg less than the speed of light, he'd play more.

(Exaggerations should be obvious)

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Twice this year, his PT has been limited by the NBA's 6 foul rule. The rest of the time, it has been limited by MC.

How many times has his PT been limited by that little rule that puts the other team in the bonus once a 5th team foul is commited in a quarter?

Maybe MC is reluctant to see the other team racking up points from the free-throw line.

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That is absolutely the best argument against Amir's non-shooting fouling that I can think of.

I guess the way that I'd test it would be to look at:

How many free throws against us are bonus related in the 1st and 3rd quarters in games where Amir plays (i.e. non shooting fouls that result in free throws, excluding one's where we'd be in the bonus anyways b/c of the rule where the 2nd foul under 1 minute puts you in the penalty anyway)? How does that compare to the NBA average?

Maybe MC has that data and he's making an uber sophisticated moneyball-like decision to optimize our performance based on his findings... but based on his crappy end game decisions, I'm guessing that he avoids data and doesn't have good instincts when it comes to making qualitative judgments.

Maybe MC has that data and he's making an uber sophisticated moneyball-like decision to optimize our performance based on his findings... but based on his crappy end game decisions, I'm guessing that he avoids data and doesn't have good instincts when it comes to making qualitative judgments.

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My comment regarding MC was 70% [SARCASM]sarcastic[/SARCASM].

I wouldn't expect MC to have the time for analysis of this depth when you take in to consideration how much time he devotes to coming up with new starting lineups.

a) Sitting him down so there may be a chance to use him later (IF he is indeed THAT valuable)?

or

b) Letting him foul out by the 2nd qtr and just getting it over with?

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It depends. If he is a critical end-game player, then saving him for the end-game situation could be critical. I don't think Amir fits this category. Someone like Chauncey or Kobe would. Even Sheed... b/c of his defense and experience (ignoring his recent 4th quarter meltdown).

If he is a valuable player, but not necessary for end-game situations, then it would be best to maximize his playing time by letting him foul out naturally at any point in the game. Take him out to rest him only.

If he is a detriment to the team, then it would be best to not play him at all, or bring him off the bench as a last resord when other big men are in trouble. Herrmann fits this category.

MC is managing Amir based on conventions that don't apply. He's used to seeing coaches pull starters to keep them out of foul trouble and he's applying the same practice here. The difference is that those coaches are pulling players that they intend to put in at the end of the game while MC is pulling a player that won't be in at the end of the game.

No slip, satire. You know, as in quant-jocks, from one of those heavily quantitative MBA programs, or from a heavily quant social sciences program. Them what do research for the purposes of getting data to play with and model rather than research to expand the bounds of human knowledge.

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I'm so quaint i didn't even know of the phrase "quant jocks". thanks for expanding the bounds of my knowledge. quaint of you.