However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.

The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.

Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.

Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.

The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.

However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!

Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.

All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.

One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.

Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.

One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.

During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?

Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?

Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?

One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.

Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.

In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.

Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.

What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.

The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.

Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?

Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.

Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.

Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.

At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.

I am a modified dispensationalist who believes the pre-tribbies are holding to a doctrine that has almost no scriptural basis. Nothing in the Bible indicates the church in an Age of Apostasy will be “raptured” out and not face the winnowing process that has been the fate of Christians in every age.

2
posted on 07/07/2007 7:54:48 PM PDT
by attiladhun2
(Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)

I haven’t a clue what a ‘modified dispensationlist’ is, but the Fathers of the Church uniformly applied the Scriptural passages adduced in support of the notion of a ‘rapture’ to the experience of Christians alive at the time of the General Resurrection.

The ‘pre-tribulation rapture’ is a 19th century innovation, and is heresy even without a conciliar condemnation.

15
posted on 07/07/2007 10:12:53 PM PDT
by The_Reader_David
(And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)

I really don’t see how Matthew 24:29-3l refutes the pre-trib rapture. Before we micro examine any verse, shouldn’t we take the context into account, i.e. the entire 24th {and some of the 25th} chapter?

Obviously, our Lord is telling of multiple events that will take place at different time periods. For example, verse 2; “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” Here, I think Jesus is foretelling the Roman destruction of the temple. {70 A.D. ??} It should be safe to conclude this chapter covers a wide range of history.

Let’s look at the verses you have cited: 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Sounds frightening enough. Jesus follows with the fig tree lesson. Then He assures us His Words will never pass away. Time for some more prophecy:

36”No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Oh-oh, Something’s wrong here? The Son of Man will come at an hour I do not expect? If I see great tribulation, the sun and moon darkened, stars “falling” etc. Let me assure you, I will be expecting my Master’s return at any minute. When non-believers witness this, will they really be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” and be living without a clue?

Who are “all the nations of the earth” that will mourn when His “sign” appears? It can’t be us, because we would not mourn, we would be relieved and happy at His appearing.

This is barely a beginning of the many reasons we believe there will be a “rapture”. I certainly don’t claim to speak for the many different variants of this teaching.

Is the point of your post to persuade us your point is correct? You may be, for I can never claim to be anything more than a simple student. Have you considered that some of us once believed as you do? With our present limitations, there will always be some things we don’t understand. There will always be some pieces of the “puzzle” that don’t seem to fit. For me, I am able to fit many more pieces with the “rapture” theory.

---------------------------------

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

And as you say, the 2nd coming of Jesus will be known to all...It won't be a mystery and 'all' eyes (the entire world) will see him...

In the pre-tribulation rapture, only Christians will see Jesus...

While the rapture of the church is clearly manifest in the bible, there are religious groups that claim they can't find it there...I can only assume that God has blinded them to the fact since it is so cleary attested to in the word of God...

And then many Christians can see the rapture in the scripture but they claim it is at the end of the tribulation period...

What most people don't consider is that there is more than one resurrection spoken of in the bible...

In the book of the end times, God says 'come up hither' three different times...But then people get hung up on this verse:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

To those people the rapture is at the end of the tribulation...

But as any farmer knows, there are 3 'pickings' when it comes to the harvest...When the tomatos start getting ripe, you rush out and pick the first ripe ones among the green...You pick the firstfruits...

In the peak of the season, you go out and get the main harvest...But, there will yet be some left that are not ready to pick...At the end of the season, after the main harvest is sold, or put up for the winter, you go out and get those last few that have become ripe before the frost hits...Those are the gleanings...And they are all the First resurrection...All are Christians...

The first resurrection of God's believers has three parts to it...There will be a pre-tribulation rapture, AND there will be a post tribulation rapture...

And what if the pre-tribulation rapture wasn't revealed until the 1800s??? So what??? I have no doubt that some things that will happen in the future have yet to be revealed...

18
posted on 07/08/2007 3:17:49 AM PDT
by Iscool
(OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)

The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

That statement is true, no matter what your Christian religious affiliation is.

I really dont see how Matthew 24:29-3l refutes the pre-trib rapture. Before we micro examine any verse, shouldnt we take the context into account, i.e. the entire 24th {and some of the 25th} chapter?

Matt.24:29 tells us that there will be two tribulations, the first is that of Satan, Immediately after the tribulation of those days....That is the one Christians must be concerned about as he is coming after us (he already has the others):

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is one of the verses in which God tells us we will be here to experience that tribulation. ...If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation....(Rev.14:9-10). When Jesus arrives, at the 7th trump, His 2nd Advent, it is the time of His wrath but He isn't angry at His children, those that didn't fall for Satan's deceit and waited for the true Christ. We have nothing to fear from Him.

Labette, you wrote: Obviously, our Lord is telling of multiple events that will take place at different time periods. For example, verse 2; I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down. Here, I think Jesus is foretelling the Roman destruction of the temple. {70 A.D. ??} It should be safe to conclude this chapter covers a wide range of history.

Many agree with you, in that Jesus was speaking about the event of 70AD but I don't think the gravity of that chapter could possibly mean that. He is telling his disciples about the end of the world, not just what would happen to that one small spot, no matter how important it was. Also there are still stones standing at the wailing wall. To me, the belief in 70AD being the time He was speaking of is part of, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Oh-oh, Somethings wrong here? The Son of Man will come at an hour I do not expect? If I see great tribulation, the sun and moon darkened, stars falling etc. Let me assure you, I will be expecting my Masters return at any minute.....When non-believers witness this, will they really be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and be living without a clue?

It is my belief that the "great tribulation" is that of Satan, of his lies and deceit. He is the anti-christ, which was mistranslated and should be "instead of Christ". Many, actually most, will fall for his lies because they won't know he is an imposter. His tribulation will be one of peace and prosperity (playing like he is the Lamb). That is why the tribulation is so great (Matt.24:21). The "stars" that are falling are the fallen angels who return with Satan. The "eating, drinking and giving in marriage" is reference to how it was in the days of Noah when the fallen angels were "marrying" daughters of Adam. It isn't non-believers but believers, Christians, that will be the first to be "taken" by his deceit.

Who are all the nations of the earth that will mourn when His sign appears? It cant be us, because we would not mourn, we would be relieved and happy at His appearing.

Would you mourn if you, who love Christ and followed Him all your life, suddenly realized you have been worshipping the imposter, the anti-christ, Satan. You wouldn't realize that until the true Christ appears and then it would be too late to change. That is what the great apostasy is about. What would make a true Christian change who they worship? Nothing - it is done with deceit but that will not be an excuse as God warns us many times in His letter and tells us what will happen. That is why the rapture doctrine is very dangerous. Many are being taught they will be taken away and do not study the warnings He wrote to us.

So...those that do not follow anti-christ will be, as you say, relieved and happy at His coming, the others will not.

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ....Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

We will not suffer wrath as we are His children but the condition is that we stay true to Jesus Christ and "endure patiently" through the deception of Satan in his tribulation. His Word keeps us from Satan's "hour" and as the verse you quoted states - "that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth

CA Conservative you said: So you are of the opinion that God will have his Bride suffer His Wrath along with the unbelievers of the world?

We will not suffer if we stay true and it will be very difficult. In speaking of Satan's tribulation, his hour, Jesus said, And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "No flesh saved", meaning, most men will follow Satan.

You mistake tribulations for the great tribulation. Also Hebrew prophesy is pattern. You should restudy the last time the earth was judged. If there is a rapture to come, you will find your answer there.

God will not have his bride suffer his wrath. onlyl the ungodly suffer that. but his bride does suffer persecuation. and there ia a huge difference.

But the Tribulation is directly described as the wrath of God on the world. If the Church (His Bride) will be here during that tie, then it will receive His wrath as well, since many of the plagues and judgments are world-wide in their scope...

the entire trib time frame is NOT referred to as the wrath of deity. only the bowls of wrath are related specifically to divine wrath.

believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. i’ll leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.

believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. ill leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.

We are mentioned and we will be there but we won't be beheaded. Christ certainly wouldn't behead us and neither can Satan.

1Chronicles 16:22 Saying, "Touch not Mine anointed, And do My prophets no harm."

The only way he can harm us is with deception and if we are sealed with God's Word and know the truth then he can't touch us.

Rev.9:4 (Satan's tribulation) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.5.And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man

It is my belief that the reference to those that were beheaded are to those that have died before us, as in the Roman times and of course to any who are murdered for their Christian beliefs today. They come to earth with Christ and join those that didn't take the "mark of the beast" during his tribulation.

Ca Conservative wrote: But the Tribulation is directly described as the wrath of God on the world. If the Church (His Bride) will be here during that time, then it will receive His wrath as well, since many of the plagues and judgments are world-wide in their scope...

His bride and wife will be here (we have work to do) and the earth is in for a big shaking but remember the tribulation we must worry about is Satan's, not the one of Jesus Christ - He loves us. Think about how He protected his own during the flood, during the Exodus, how Daniel wasn't hurt when he was in the lion's den, how the 3 Hebrew children weren't harmed in the fire. Those are our examples so we know He would never harm us but the condition is that we do not follow Satan. If we do, even unknowingly, then we are no longer a child of God but of Satan.

Another point to consider is that when Jesus arrives at His 2nd Advent, 7th trump (after Satan's), then:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Corinthians 15:52)

the entire trib time frame is NOT referred to as the wrath of deity. only the bowls of wrath are related specifically to divine wrath.

You are, of course, makng a distinction between the first 3-1/2 years of the tribulation and the last 3-1/2 years, often referred to as the Great Tribulation. Does that mean you believe in a mid-tribulation rapture? If you are post-trib, or don't believe in a rapture at all, then you must believe that He will allow His Bride to suffer his Wrath... I'm just interested in how you support that scripturally.

believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. ill leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.

Ah, yes, but are those who were believers prior to the Tribulation, or do they become believers during the Tribulation?

By the way, I've done quite a bit of study on the subject, so please try not to come across as condescending. We may come to different conclusions, and neither of us will know for sure who is right until Christ returns, but we still need to treat each other with Christian love and respect.

that info points to a POST-TRIB rapture coinciding with the second coming. this IS the key passage from jesus lips: matthew 24:29-31.

all other second coming prophetic passages should be read in light of jesus words.

Not so...None of the Jews in Mat. 24 knew anything about a born again, Gentile church...It hadn't been revealed yet...They knew nothing about the adoption of Gentiles into the church...Why would Jesus reveal to them the rapture of the Gentile church??? Answer, He wouldn't...

In the book of Revelation, the Wedding takes place 'after' the Rapture, yet, before the end of the Tribulation, before the 2nd coming of Jesus...

49
posted on 07/08/2007 12:32:44 PM PDT
by Iscool
(OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)

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