Page 4:Yagari: Because there’s something that we need to say that cannot be heard within the walls of the Association’s headquarters.

Page 6:Yagori: We don’t share the President’s viewpoints. We hope Kaname Kuran can continue what he’s doing. Therefore... we feel, this time, his individual actions will only get in the way.

Page 24:Kaname: As the President of the Vampire Hunter Association, you should have no problems with my actions, Kaien Cross.

Page 25:Kaien: Huh, I have no wish to see the destruction of the purebloods. (Kaname collapses into a horde of bats)Kaname...!

Page 28:Kaito: Whatever. If Kaname Kuran was to destroy the purebloods, then our wishes would be fulfilled.Chairman... If he was to know about this, he would be very saddened.Kaito (con’t): You, also, don’t try to interfere. Although I’m saying this, in reality, you can’t do anything but stay here. Don’t know what that rascal’s aims are. And we also don’t know much about the anti-vampire weapon he’s wielding. But it’s clear that no matter what, you will be spared.To spare a pureblood who’s sympathetic to humankind is not a bad thing. As long as it’s just one person.

I thought hunters are supposed to serve as defenders of justice no matter what kind and NOW they are on the same league as Kaname (technically)!!

What does that say of their morality? Kaname in the past had been ACCUSED AND PERSECUTED for his crimes by fans, NOW the hunters are AGREEING to this SAME ACTS of KILLING PUREBLOODS. What does that tell you? What does that tell of vampire knight?

I cannot resist saying this, but the ones who BASHED Kaname for killing purebloods, I believe, have eaten their own words to try and incriminate him due his deeds

Yuki and Kaien are the only ones shown to be interested in peace and non-violence now. In my opinion, as my opinion in the beginning, vampire knight is dark and has many violence warranted and unwarranted. It was not surprising for me the hunters would think this way, but in my opinion it was still shocking to find out they were even holding some sort of conspiracy against their president (Kaien) for having different views than the rest of them. The morality and ethics of the hunters, I think, and always thought since the start, lies on their job and what their job entailed them to do. They work on protocol of their job, not morality. As long as they get an easy way of handling things, IT DOESN'T MATTER if its wrong or right. example would be how Yagari treated the wiping out of the council-- the only thing that mattered for him was that the level e's were on the loose and they would have more jobs to do, something he complained to Kaname, rather than arresting him for doing the crime. Another thing is their basis for taking out purebloods is almost NIL, not even executed, they simply DON'T DO ANYTHING towards Purebloods, nor do they take appropriate action towards them. The vampires seem to do more in terms of worrying. example would be their actions towards Sara Shirabuki seemed to have stopped, or ignored, when Kaname started killing purebloods.[i]

juliet wrote:The question is; is Kaien going to stand alone? Perhaps once he leaves without supporters to realize that he has to let Yuuki go despite his wish. On the other hand the issue with the co-existence and Kaien's pacifism worries me. What is going to remain of his ideologies? it seemed that they had no real application/ what is Kaien going to do now? There is a great surprise for him coming.

Hate to bring up a flashback but Chapter 51 Kaien told zero his "sentence" for killing the HA president is only temporarily on hold or to see how things turn out. I dont think He will have a choice to stand alone. As you say he has a 'surprise' coming. But its not much of a surprise seeing he knew his righpt to being president would be short lived. My conceern is the details of his sentence. as Hino never revelaed anything reguarding it. i feared when Kaien was arrested and we didnt see him literally for 6 months. I was paranoid he was exeuted for his deciaion. And Im realistically still scared that its still applicable. Especially now that he appears to be in evereyone's way. X.X

Hes more than likely going to be locked away again for now . unless these guys are seriously fed up with him altogether . As he has been a toy of the association for years. x,x

Kaien's "sentence" was not revealed but I think this means he is obligated to do what the HA tells him to do, and Yagari appointed him in the self important title as The Figurehead. In a way this forces Kaien to act like a president and follow what the HA tells him, for example he was not supposed to have any dealings with the Kurans (including Yuki), he was not free to do this and some fans think its even Kaname's fault that he "cant see his own daughter Yuki" mffft. -will post evidence only if requested-

ckaien wrote:X.x oi, oi. This isnt the first time the Hunters agreed with Kaname before as stated at the confereence meeting Before the Peace Ball. the hunters' ancestors devoured kaname 10,000 years ago possibly on Kanames request. Theyve been living on his curse for years. In a sense Kaname owns the hunters by cursing them through his blood and poweres all those years ago. They are dogs to a call. They just dont realise it.

what?? no.. the hunters ate the hooded woman, as a consequence for possessing the powers in her blood Kaname told them they will have a hateful instinct towards vampires. He doesnt command them, or he can but i dont see why he should, LOL, come to think of it he can just command them to cut off their heads it would save the trouble, Kaname can actually eliminate all of Yuki's threats such as the hunters who even threaten her pureblood life (lol, when she can also control them and yet she's "afraid" and even "forced to follow their orders" hilarious) Purebloods can control hunter as evidence by Sara controlling a hunter to kill Ouri. But obviously theres a reason why Kaname is hesitating even doing this, and I think it is to bait someone to coming out...

Akaruisama wrote:I completely share your opinion on this topic. And, moreover, I like it. Hino shows us that no one of he characters are black or white, they are all usual people who sometimes use any means to achieve their goals.

well now at least this meaning is truer than any "He is bad because killing is bad" reasoning. Now I can stop defending this line at least

shizza24 wrote:I never got the idea of hunters as defenders of morals.. their only concern is protection of the humans from vampires. Hunters and Vampires are fundamentally two opposing factions and neither side holds a great regard for the other even though they are on tolerably agreeable terms thanks to Kaien. It was only Kaien from the hunters faction who believed in co-existence and his influence had the two factions working together with help from Kaname..

Now Kaname has decided to kill all the PBs so of course Kaien has a problem with it since he believes in peace. But that doesn't mean the hunters have to think that way. Even though they agreed to co-operate with Vampires the hunters still have negative notions about them and vice versa for vampires. So I don't see a reason why they would support Kaien in defending the PBs against Kaname. For them it will just make their job of protecting humans easier and the PBs gone for good there wont be any level Es and thus it will be safer for humans. Hence I don't think it illogical for the hunters to decide to not get into Kaname's way and let him kill the PBs..

I completely share your opinion on this topic. And, moreover, I like it. Hino shows us that no one of he characters are black or white, they are all usual people who sometimes use any means to achieve their goals.

thanks ^^

and yes Hino portrays her characters very realistically. I like that about her work

shizza24 wrote:So I don't see a reason why they would support Kaien in defending the PBs against Kaname. For them it will just make their job of protecting humans easier and the PBs gone for good there wont be any level Es and thus it will be safer for humans. Hence I don't think it illogical for the hunters to decide to not get into Kaname's way and let him kill the PBs..

i have no problem with the lack of logic in the hunters' actions for those we can say they are ruled by their instincts, but not all the hunters are ruled by instincts, there are some (yagari), who have been shown to act rationally. i'm just wondering what happened to that. it would be better if we'd been given more reasoning in his case.

the problem with their logic that they're better off killing the purebloods is 'which is the greater threat' to them. According to the hunters 5 chapters ago, Kaname's actions unleashed chaos on them and threats to humans increased and the workload for hunters was non stop. They needed a pureblood to control the generic vampires causing trouble, since kaname took out the council that controlled them before, which as yagari pointed out, were assholes, but better than nothing. and it also wasn't the first time Kaname caused such trouble to them.

in 56 they were angry about a hunter being used (and killed) to kill a pureblood and said they wouldn't let it happen again. now the one who apparently did it, is the guy they're letting have free reign to continue to kill more purebloods...they have no ideas what kaname is capable of or what his endgame is. its rash and foolish to just let him his way if they don't know where he's leading to. as kaito admitted, they don't know what kaname can do with his av weapon or how long he can use it. which means, there's a threat that kaname may need another tool (a hunter). in fact, kaname did use another tool this time, he used kaien, he just didn't have to kill him to accomplish touma's death.

Last edited by Knightmare on Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:34 am; edited 1 time in total

well, the problem with their logic for me is 'which is the greater threat' to them. According to the hunters 5 chapters ago, Kaname's actions unleashed chaos on them and threats to humans increased and the workload for hunters was non stop. They needed a pureblood to control the masses, since kaname took out the council that controlled them before, which as yagari pointed out, were assholes, but better than nothing. and it also wasn't the first time Kaname caused such trouble to them.

in 56 they were angry about a hunter being used (and killed) to kill a pureblood and said they wouldn't let it happen again. now the one who apparently did it, is the guy they're letting have free reign to continue to kill more purebloods...they have no ideas what kaname is capable of or what his endgame is. its rash and foolish to just let him his way if they don't know where he's leading to. as kaito admitted, they don't know what kaname can do with his av weapon or how long he can use it. which means, there's a threat that kaname may need another tool (a hunter). in fact, kaname did use another tool this time, he used kaien, he just didn't have to kill him to accomplish touma's death.

if you wanna say its all about their instincts, i have no problem with the lack of logic in their actions now, but not all the hunters are ruled by instincts, there are some (yagari), who have been shown to act rationally. i'm just wondering what happened to that. it would be better if we'd been given more reasoning in his case.

Like Kaname in this chapter 75, Yagari is only telling you what what he wants, not the how or why he wants it. Yagari may be trying to get control of the Hunters from Kaien. Kaien is a pacifist with strong connections to vampire leaders. Keeping Kaien in the top seat might be a liabilty right now because Kaname's pureblood killing spree is forcing the vampire leadership to be defensive and take a stand. Kaien's smooth diplomatic style will not be enough to deal with the current vampire situation.

Rima's analysis shows that Kaname has effectively betrayed his own kind for Yuuki. Yagari knows the politics and he might want the control of the Hunters so that the organization can be ready to defend itself from a possible vampire attack. Kaien might even be in favor of the leadership change, especially after how he was used to kill Touma.

(Yagari is only "saying" that he wants all purebloods killed. That might be only a politcal excuse to get all the other Hunters to agree with him)

caela wrote:Like Kaname in this chapter 75, Yagari is only telling you what what he wants, not the how or why he wants it. Yagari may be trying to get control of the Hunters from Kaien. Kaien is a pacifist with strong connections to vampire leaders. Keeping Kaien in the top seat might be a liabilty right now because Kaname's pureblood killing spree is forcing the vampire leadership to be defensive and take a stand. Kaien's smooth diplomatic style will not be enough to deal with the current vampire situation.

i don't think we need another mystery. the hunters aren't interesting enough and not important enough, yagari barely gets 3 panels every five chapters, thats not enough time to hide or hint at mysteries. plus, yagari isn't a manipulative planner, he's generally shown to be direct and honest. as in 50, there's a reason he's not built for politics, neither is Zero for that matter. honestly, there are lots of convoluted plots and mysteries, don't need another and I'd prefer the cannibalising of yagari's character to make him a thoughtless shortsighted baka to a calculating chess master.

I know some people would like to hope the hunters have a "good reason" for wanting the purebloods killed, but my opinion thats too optimistic and it is more of plot fail and forcing the main characters into position than anything else.

caela wrote: Like Kaname in this chapter 75, Yagari is only telling you what what he wants, not the how or why he wants it. Yagari may be trying to get control of the Hunters from Kaien. Kaien is a pacifist with strong connections to vampire leaders. Keeping Kaien in the top seat might be a liabilty right now because Kaname's pureblood killing spree is forcing the vampire leadership to be defensive and take a stand. Kaien's smooth diplomatic style will not be enough to deal with the current vampire situation.

Knightmare:i don't think we need another mystery. the hunters aren't interesting enough and not important enough, yagari barely gets 3 panels every five chapters, thats not enough time to hide or hint at mysteries. plus, yagari isn't a manipulative planner, he's generally shown to be direct and honest. as in 50, there's a reason he's not built for politics, neither is Zero for that matter. honestly, there are lots of convoluted plots and mysteries, don't need another and I'd prefer the cannibalising of yagari's character to make him a thoughtless shortsighted baka to a calculating chess master.

I think you were right to point out that Yagari is a rational person and that his kill-all-purebloods position in chapter 75 is uncharacteristic. Relax your frustration please. Someone else other than Kaname needs to have brains for the story to move forward. I know that Yuuki doesn't inspire hope for the brains of the other characters, but have some hope. Kaien and Yagari do have working brain cells.

My best guess is that we are at the half way point for the manga (which of course means nothing), so we are going to have more questions than answers. Your comfort or my comfort does not dictate the story. Relax and have some fun not knowing everything.

caela wrote:My best guess is that we are at the half way point for the manga (which of course means nothing), so we are going to have more questions than answers. Your comfort or my comfort does not dictate the story. Relax and have some fun not knowing everything.

actually, we're probably at the 3/4 point, since its doubtful the 2nd arc will be longer than the 1st and with its falling popularity, its not likely to get extended.

there's nothing wrong with mysteries, we've plenty of interesting ones to focus on, but the longer hino treads water on not giving answers, the less satisfactions readers will gain from them. like I said, the hunters aren't worth another mystery, not because I say so, but because of the level of depth hino has given them.

to be honest, I snapped at you, because I thought your theories were a little convoluted. something simpler might work, such as yagari is attempting to make the hunters look like less of a threat to Kaname or fears of being used by the purebloods and getting caught up in their wars. I'm not sure, issue is, there's nothing much to build upon or lead to because they're placing themselves in a bad situation by no longer remaining neutral between vampires as enforcers of the peace.

the hunters are a mess of information. kaien was made head as the strongest hunter with zero tagged to be the next head, but before that, kaien was in jail and on probation now. which means kaien is not an absolute leader. who is therefore backing kaien that requires yagari to work in secret around him? and actually, not secret, since they are ok with yuuki going and telling kaien. the only thing the hunters gain from their position, is letting people know, they are dissenting. dissention causes weakness and makes them vulnerable to attack. so maybe they want to be attacked?

Thanks for the honesty. It wasn't too hard to figure out something was up.

the hunters are a mess of information. kaien was made head as the strongest hunter with zero tagged to be the next head, but before that, kaien was in jail and on probation now. which means kaien is not an absolute leader. who is therefore backing kaien that requires yagari to work in secret around him? and actually, not secret, since they are ok with yuuki going and telling kaien. the only thing the hunters gain from their position, is letting people know, they are dissenting. dissention causes weakness and makes them vulnerable to attack. so maybe they want to be attacked?

If you want a simple explanation (just a fun guess): the Kaname-hurricane already promised to take care of Sara. The reason to give this snapshot of the Hunters to prepare us to see that Kaname's next target after Sara are the Hunters; the focus is shifting from evil purebloods to evil hunters.

But isn't Yagari supposed to be the real vampire hunter leader whereas Cross stands as a front? I think it was mentioned somewhere, I am bored to look for the chapter but does anyone else has in that mind that info?

@Ckaien, I think that Kaien needs to be around for Yuuki, so no I do not think that Hino will pick Kaien up next...perhaps later.

the only thing the hunters gain from their position, is letting people know, they are dissenting. dissention causes weakness and makes them vulnerable to attack. so maybe they want to be attacked?

So the point is? that they are letting out information deliberately in order to attrack purebloods on their way? sorry confused, trying to see what the actual theory is..

juliet wrote:But isn't Yagari supposed to be the real vampire hunter leader whereas Cross stands as a front? I think it was mentioned somewhere, I am bored to look for the chapter but does anyone else has in that mind that info?

juliet wrote:But isn't Yagari supposed to be the real vampire hunter leader whereas Cross stands as a front? I think it was mentioned somewhere, I am bored to look for the chapter but does anyone else has in that mind that info?

juliet wrote:But isn't Yagari supposed to be the real vampire hunter leader whereas Cross stands as a front? I think it was mentioned somewhere, I am bored to look for the chapter but does anyone else has in that mind that info?

EXACTL! that it clearly says ethey just need kaien as acting president because of his connection with the vampire world. Yagari clearly states hes the real president Kaiens just the puppet. So why ' mutiny' when kaiens technically still a prisoner himself. All this means is that hes going to be put back on his 'post poned' sentence. Whatever that is .. Zero hinted ' locked up' so my guess is that kaiens going back to either Hunter Prison or they may very well have him executed x.x for killing the last president.

EXACTL! that it clearly says ethey just need kaien as acting president because of his connection with the vampire world. Yagari clearly states hes the real president Kaiens just the puppet. So why ' mutiny' when kaiens technically still a prisoner himself. All this means is that hes going to be put back on his 'post poned' sentence. Whatever that is .. Zero hinted ' locked up' so my guess is that kaiens going back to either Hunter Prison or they may very well have him executed x.x for killing the last president.

Hm, that's a possibility. Never thought of it. Yuuki will probably try to stop them if they do that to Kaien.

I can understand knightmare's frustrations about the hunters, as they seemed to have flipped their beliefs now in favor of the greater threat, but really what is surprising, as most of us here defend its their instinct to hate vampires, they can't help it.Kaito said its their wish that all purebloods are exterminated. But are they doing it for humans or for themselves, Kaito's comment to Yuki seems to give light: "we have no problems if you're the only pureblood left alive, since you don't harm humans"So from his comment he shows that their desire might be related to their obligation to protect humans.--to protect humans and their own interests. what Yagari said after the ball makes no difference, he says if a pureblood wants to die he can come and they will give him death. One of their hunters were killed because of a pureblood's scam. Also, purebloods cause the level E's and the very reason why they have their jobs, purebloods cause more trouble than worth. It is pretty understandable why they want to have them killed. Yagari got annoyed by Kaname when he rid the council because technically he gave them more jobs to do by loosing more level Es under the council's control, but they were more complaining about what they should be doing, as Kaname said. they are more protocol based than moral.As for Kaien being the figurehead and Yagari as the true lead before Zero can be a president, it seems to fit since Kaien has committed treason by killing the previous president, however this doesnt make sense because its all the more reason to keep Kaien out of the public and his job because of the scandal from his actions, IF the news that he killed the pres leaked. I don't think it did... and only the hunters knew Kaien's crime hence until his sentence was decided they let him be a figurehead.

edit:Yagari said that Kaien takes the job as the chairman of cross academy again because no one would take the position and the "heads" are telling them to set up the academy again to avoid losing connection to Ichijou, Aido and the Kuran family, beings who are influential to them . These heads seem to be the influential human families who benefit from the vampires and want their abilities, however they dont know about the night class. So Yagari seem to hold humans as a more important figure than anyone else especially the more influential ones (example he gave more security when Yori's father requested at the start of the night class), and this might also explain why his beliefs gear more towards protecting them and eliminating their threats.

/why though? a previous academy headmaster becomes the figurehead president of the HA-- does that make sense? and why is Yagari controlling the real matters here, is Kaien's presence more fragrant than his in public? Yagari doesnt seem to have intentions to become the president in public, but why when he is technically the strongest active vampire hunter known there. He says he will take over as the true head especially when Zero cannot do it yet. And still Kaien is the figurehead.perhaps Kaien being a figurehead also served the hunters purpose against the vampires to get \information --Kaien was told not to associate with the Kurans, and it seemed Kaien is obliged to show no signs of acknowledgement to them in any form by the book, so this is probably the standard by which Kaien's sentence is decided, it can explain why he's very stranger towards Kaname. However that also doesn't make sense since as a figurehead his roles are still personally his call as shown when he acted "independently" to pursue Kaname. But he is just a facade. He covers up Yagari. We know there is a detached link with Kaien's beliefs and Yagari's as well as the rest of the hunters, and Kaien seems to be following his own without anyone's dictation. So again questions how his role is significant here? he is just a cover, for what? is it just me, or did Yagari used Kaien's pacifist beliefs to cover their own beliefs about wanting purebloods dead? The "mutiny" they held was in secret, they all seemed to have agreed before that that they don't agree with Kaien's pacifistic beliefs, but it seems more like a common knowledge for them rather than a conflict. And also, why hold the meeting in a secret place, especially when Kaien was not there or where no one can hear it? Why is their belief to want to kill all purebloods a secret, and why keep it a secret from their Figurehead of a president? Kaien is a figurehead, his beliefs should not matter compare to their true leader--Yagari. Yagari intended to keep the farce? Do they want to let him keep believing that they agree with his actions, what do they plan to do with him?

so many loose strings and confusion... though I also feel the same with caela that the hunters have schemed something or about to.

I can understand knightmare's frustrations about the hunters, as they seemed to have flipped their beliefs now in favor of the greater threat, but really what is surprising, as most of us here defend its their instinct to hate vampires, they can't help it.Kaito said its their wish that all purebloods are exterminated. But are they doing it for humans or for themselves, Kaito's comment to Yuki seems to give light: "we have no problems if you're the only pureblood left alive, since you don't harm humans"

So from his comment he shows that their desire might be related to their obligation to protect humans. --to protect humans and their own interests.

Ι know..all points close conveniently to get both sides well satisfied...how convenient really...far too convenient I can say LOL

Yagari got annoyed by Kaname when he rid the council because technically he gave them more jobs to do by loosing more level Es under the council's control, but they were more complaining about what they should be doing, as Kaname said.

haha...I remember..but Yagari should be really blaming their ex-president, he was the one creating all this chaos that had to go and the senate also...haha yet his reason there to pick up on Kaname shows a bit his hot-tempered personality. Do hunters sound lazy or is it my idea?

In general about Kain and Yagari, Sweet you made some very interesting points.

I suspect that Yagari and the rest of hunters have been played along the peace treaty since they have no real choice in the matter, they are against two powerful beings: Kaien and Kaname.

So at the moment they seem to adapt that position. I am not sure why they let still Kaien be as the president of the HA...because he is the oldest and also a legendary vampire hunter, so certainly a good front cover. More than this, his pacifism and his ideals are really good for all as you suggested humans and vampires. So he sounds exactly as the really good candidate for that position.

Kaien separated from the pack a long time ago, as he says the old saying and motto of the HA "he is a vampire so he can be killed" does not longer apply to his ideas(in general with Kaname Kaien reached his limits).

This is a moment perhaps where the rope can no longer hold Kaien as the facade of the HA, because as he declared to Kaname, he will not support unexcused killings but we know that the real president of the HA can. In a way the situation becomes ironic for Kaien. And it is ironic already as he aided Kaname to kill Touma without even realizing, he was manipulated into "buying" Kaname's sayings really easily. What in reality led Kaien to be used was his own impulses.And that's an indicative or I will take it as a sign of future events that the hunters can summon with their attitude.

I am really curious to see if the HA make a public turn againts him and do not obey his orders how is Kaien going to behave and how is he going to act? Because he can not restrict all the hunters and on the other hand he can not protect all the purebloods. Perhaps he will realize that they have become as the Senate had become; an organization that no longer separates good from bad.

The first hunters were actually killing purebloods who were declared enemies of the people, now the role of the hunters has been degraded in killing level-e. Of course there is the excuse that no pureblood was a potential threat but is that true?

-Rido...-Shizuka...We can say that circumstances did not aid them;

Rido established a collaboration, Shizuka had gone missing...and when Yagari again had information about Shizuka being alive, apparently he left that to Zero due to Zero's e-level problem...and when finally they have the excuse to go after a pureblood, they let him be because he kills the rests? but they want to leave Yuuki alive because actually she can serve as their medium or front cover that the organization is well serving the humans, "Look at the exceptional pureblood that we keep under control and collaborates with the association?"

Examining the moral issue of the side, the association has become quite distant from the initial scope that the hunters were created from...and it reminds me the senate in a way.

here many evidences are overlooked...and no real action has been taken

so many loose strings and confusion... though I also feel the same with caela that the hunters have schemed something or about to.

Perhaps that's one of the main reasons that they do not want Kaien to know now more about their intentions...they are buying time so they can finally pull together their actions. If they are scheming something there, the whole point becomes more interesting LOL. Aido is taking the tablets to the HA, perhaps we see more than expected.

I am not sure why they let still Kaien be as the president of the HA...because he is the oldest and also a legendary vampire hunter, so certainly a good front cover. More than this, his pacifism and his ideals are really good for all as you suggested humans and vampires. So he sounds exactly as the really good candidate for that position.

im thinking along the same lines as you, Kaien's beliefs would serve the purpose of being the Fragrant Leader. I don't believe his powers fit him in that position though, as we saw his beliefs as a hunter has changed, and this means he won't use it as a hunter but rather as an Agent of Peace. Yagari seems to follow orders from the influential human families who want vampire abilities as shown in chapter 51. The powerful humans would want to see a leader that takes care of humans and vampires (Kaien) and after the incident with Rido attacking the academy I think this boost is needed--to keep the faith of the humans with the hunters, IMO, and as Yagari said, perhaps to be in good terms with this influential humans. Though somehow I think there are other possibilities as to why Kaien became a figurehead

This is a moment perhaps where the rope can no longer hold Kaien as the facade of the HA, because as he declared to Kaname, he will not support unexcused killings but we know that the real president of the HA can.

yes and it could be the reason why the hunters have now gathered together to discuss about it---(perhaps to talk about how they are going to finish Kaien off)

In a way the situation becomes ironic for Kaien. And it is ironic already as he aided Kaname to kill Touma without even realizing, he was manipulated into "buying" Kaname's sayings really easily. What in reality led Kaien to be used was his own impulses.

Imagine what he's going to do next...He is already guilty for killing Touma, and the hunters MAY get this as an excuse to get rid of him as a facade, IF they are what they seem to be.On the other hand, Kaien is caught in a battle of belief and logic--to tell Yuki or not to tell? Being a huge fan of coexistence he must itch to put a rope on Kaname's neck, and he had always been dutiful towards it. But as he is also guilty of killing Touma, would he also tell this to her as well in turn admitting he was too excited, or will he include this deed in Kaname's roster of crimes to save himself? "Kaname killed Touma in front of me. Yuki, he is really killing all purebloods! "

I am really curious to see if the HA make a public turn againts him and do not obey his orders how is Kaien going to behave and how is he going to act?

he is alone in his beliefs and he is avid to fight for it.Kaien has to be aware that he is a figurehead and the decisions still lie on Yagari. Fact is when he moved out on his own without sending someone with him--I dont think he was expecting to be accompanied by a fellow hunter there. I want to see which side he chooses here especially after having a hand in killing Touma--either way he has to admit he is wrong at some point and either pass the blame to someone else or switch sides. The strength of his convictions towards peace will be known-- to continue believing in it despite both hunters threatening to move against him and be blind to its futility (especially when its as you said, he cannot protect all purebloods :Rofl:) , or to submit to another conviction that he had realized from killing Touma and Kaname's message to Yuki (although this is just me being hopeful :rofl)

The first hunters were actually killing purebloods who were declared enemies of the people, now the role of the hunters has been degraded in killing level-e. Of course there is the excuse that no pureblood was a potential threat but is that true?

well I think now the hunters don't remember their history lessons, it seems they forgot they got their powers from a pureblood, and now they wish to kill all purebloods for the sake of making their lives easier but in reality it remained the same here, they are generalizing to say that all purebloods are evil as Kaito said (and only Yuki is kind) -- they cant differentiate bad and good vampires (why they didnt include Isaya?), unlike their past ancestors. But it seems in terms of goals Kaname and the hunters share the same goal now back in the past and in the present.

Rido established a collaboration, Shizuka had gone missing...and when Yagari again had information about Shizuka being alive, apparently he left that to Zero due to Zero's e-level problem...and when finally they have the excuse to go after a pureblood, they let him be because he kills the rests? but they want to leave Yuuki alive because actually she can serve as their medium or front cover that the organization is well serving the humans, "Look at the exceptional pureblood that we keep under control and collaborates with the association?"

haha I don't know anymore what they want more: to protect humans or to protect their interests? So they will approve of killing purebloods and will "allow" Yuki to live as she is not harmful to mankind but what does that say about their ability to fight against purebloods in the first place? nothing, they did nothing in the past towards evil purebloods (shizuka, rido) as we have seen they simply watched them create chaos yet Yagari seemed to get mad at Kaname killing nobles. So they will protect the rights of the nobles to live (Aido, the council) but not purebloods "you can harm and even kill the purebloods except humans and lower vampires ""we will turn a blind eye and a crippled hand whenever a pureblood creates chaos, but we wont forgive if a pureblood (Kaname) gives us more job to handle"are the hunters really that useless against purebloods or they just want to stick to the dignity of their titles? or something else? im still hoping its something else we've yet to see.

Examining the moral issue of the side, the association has become quite distant from the initial scope that the hunters were created from...and it reminds me the senate in a way.

me too. the actions look very senate to me right now. I hope it will make sense soon.

Perhaps that's one of the main reasons that they do not want Kaien to know now more about their intentions...they are buying time so they can finally pull together their actions. If they are scheming something there, the whole point becomes more interesting LOL. Aido is taking the tablets to the HA, perhaps we see more than expected.

good idea, yes it may be so (I hope!) makes sense if they are buying time to capture Sara XDD our previous theories about the Takuma , Jinmu and everyone else lol...the evidences are gathering and I hope they will do something

1. The hunters allowed or threw at him the position of the chairman of the academy cuz for them it’s a stupid job that no one wanted it anyway (annoying duties, dealing with the board etc).

2. Kaien has high connections with both societies’ vampires and humans. Yagari emphasized that Cross should keep his contacts with the Ichijou’s and Aidou’s clans. So from his words we can assume that no one else from the HA had the qualifications to fill this position. They needed him and wanted to use his diplomatic skills.

3. Yagari prohibited him to have any contact with the Kurans and closed his speech by saying “… settle down and SHOW US WELL WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED AFTER THIS YEAR…’’ >>> so it is obvious that Kaien would be watched and he had to prove THAT HE HAS CHANGED or at least that he would follow their views not his. Kaien was a tool from the very beginning with no real authority to make his decisions.

4. Therefore it is obvious why they put Cross as the figurehead of the HA and Yagari as the de facto one till Zero be able to fill the position. In other words they didn’t trust Cross, so Yagari has the command but they use Cross for his connections/diplomacy.

juliet wrote: I am really curious to see if the HA make a public turn againts him and do not obey his orders how is Kaien going to behave and how is he going to act? Because he can not restrict all the hunters and on the other hand he can not protect all the purebloods. Perhaps he will realize that they have become as the Senate had become; an organization that no longer separates good from bad.

I’m very curious me too. Has Kaien the power/space to go against the others since from the beginning he agreed to play by their rules? Kaien isn’t a free man … he is under custody! He said it to Zero>>>“All in all my sentence was postponed and from what I was told it seems it will be left to be decided BASED ON HOW THINGS END UP TURNING OUT”.http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c050/15.html

So he can be “imprisoned” any time …

And I’m really confused here … as I see the situation I think Kaname’s “message” serves the same purpose for Yuuki and Kaien since at the moment seems that only the two of them share the same philosophy/scope/intention >> to stop the killings of the PBs. So the question is what’s his purpose? >>>

1. Does he want to wake up both of them? If so then for Yuuki’s case he used an easily detected lie that he was the one who killed Ouri. And for Kaien his phrase >> “You as the president of the HA should be unable to deny my actions Kaien Cross” http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-75-page-26.html<<< could be an alarm for Cross about the intentions of the rest of the hunters; like “watch your back’’? Cuz he sure is against but what about the others? Doesn’t Kaien know the mentality of the hunters? He should cuz as we saw he went all alone to stop Kaname but what he doesn’t know is that Yagari probably will restrain him >> Yagari: “ We hope that Kaname Kuran will continue to act FREELY like this … However we are worried that Cross actions might get in the way.” So this leads me to the second choice >>>OR2. Kaname wants to restrain/cage Yuuki and Kaien in order to protect them by rushing in a futile battle? Cuz if his message make them to try to react then the hunters will stop both of them … Or his last wording “next will be Sara” could make Yuuki and Cross stay at the academy to “protect” Sara hence both of them will be safe into academy … ???

Hm … I really can’t make up my mind which is it?

Furthermore I have said in the past that HA’s structure does not differ so much from vampires’ society. Here what Yagari says about the way they choose their president >>>“The hunter criteria for picking our presidents is PURE STRENGTH … all that matters is whether the guy (potential president) is powerful enough TO CONTROL BY FEAR THE REST OF THE HUNTERS OR NOT…”http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v11/c052/29.html

WHY they need to be controlled and more importantly by fear? Apparently for their instincts/thirst to kill vampires thus and the hunting list. Isn’t this similar with vampires’ instinct to seek blood from humans?These aren’t the same traits that vampires have? Aren’t vampires controlled and respect only the most fearsome vampire; >> the bee queen? Ergo it is obvious that morals or ethics have no gravity for the hunters … only raw power in order to inflict fear to the other hunters but also to their enemies …

So isn’t new that something is rotten in their association as well as in vampires’ society/rationale/traits. They need to change too …

"... I want to fall down with you to the very farthest depths ... taint me too Kaname"

nina wrote:And I’m really confused here … as I see the situation I think Kaname’s “message” serves the same purpose for Yuuki and Kaien since at the moment seems that only the two of them share the same philosophy/scope/intention >> to stop the killings of the PBs. So the question is what’s his purpose? >>>

1. Does he want to wake up both of them? If so then for Yuuki’s case he used an easily detected lie that he was the one who killed Ouri. And for Kaien his phrase >> “You as the president of the HA should be unable to deny my actions Kaien Cross” http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-75-page-

Nina we certainly agree on Kaien's role that his past and ideals are perfectly used here to serve the HA's scopes...

About Kaname's sayings to the Kaien; it really depends in the interpretation that Kaien chooses to give...

Kaname: It’s so simple, there’s no need to say it out loud –It’s just that the road forward will be different, the aim has never been changed, my objective has been the same all along, I just changed the road to reach it", as the President of the Vampire Hunter Association, you should have no problems with my actions, Kaien Cross.

So what is the objective of kaname in which Kaien as a president of the Ha (not just as a hunter) should not have problem with?

3. Yagari prohibited him to have any contact with the Kurans and closed his speech by saying “… settle down and SHOW US WELL WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED AFTER THIS YEAR…’’ >>> so it is obvious that Kaien would be watched and he had to prove THAT HE HAS CHANGED or at least that he would follow their views not his. Kaien was a tool from the very beginning with no real authority to make his decisions.

hm maybe Kaien was being brainwashed during that "learning" year..? What did they teach him? and how? it seems like an evaluative period for him and it was probably his way to prove his innocence there (for killing the previous pres?) but one thing that doesn't match is the hunters know that the previous president was corrupt (chapter 45) Jinmu and Yagari were with Kaien when they were fighting the enemies invading the school. They were essentially Kaien's accomplice. So what was Kaien's true offense and why should he be sentenced? Why follow Yagari?As I see it, he was going to be "captured" because he's the one who made the night class! http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v10/c045/27.html

from what I understand, the previous president approved of Cross school. When he died so did Kaien's deal, and because there was trouble in the school (caused by Rido and Senate's dogs not Kaien. His night class actually went out to protect the humans) they blamed Kaien for the mess?? Otherwise it doesn't make sense why they would arrest him just for making the night class! how shocking...

4. Therefore it is obvious why they put Cross as the figurehead of the HA and Yagari as the de facto one till Zero be able to fill the position. In other words they didn’t trust Cross, so Yagari has the command but they use Cross for his connections/diplomacy.

but if they didn't trust him, they wouldn't let him approve certain decisions such as letting Yuki create the night class as well as Sara in the night class. They mostly treated Kaien as a separate part of their command as hunters, yet he is obligated to show them "he has changed" by remaining blind to the truth there... What are they playing? What is Kaien playing here? I'm confused...

WHY they need to be controlled and more importantly by fear? Apparently for their instincts/thirst to kill vampires thus and the hunting list. Isn’t this similar with vampires’ instinct to seek blood from humans?These aren’t the same traits that vampires have? Aren’t vampires controlled and respect only the most fearsome vampire; >> the bee queen? Ergo it is obvious that morals or ethics have no gravity for the hunters … only raw power in order to inflict fear to the other hunters but also to their enemies …

So isn’t new that something is rotten in their association as well as in vampires’ society/rationale/traits. They need to change too …

the hunters are acting like the lower vampires. They also treat purebloods as queen bees, they can go as far as whisper their desire to eliminate purebloods but in reality they can't harm a hair on their head (ex: shizuka, rido) yes they need to change too..

1. Does he want to wake up both of them? If so then for Yuuki’s case he used an easily detected lie that he was the one who killed Ouri. And for Kaien his phrase >> “You as the president of the HA should be unable to deny my actions Kaien Cross” http://manga.animea.net/vampire-knight-chapter-75-page-26.html<<< could be an alarm for Cross about the intentions of the rest of the hunters; like “watch your back’’? Cuz he sure is against but what about the others? Doesn’t Kaien know the mentality of the hunters? He should cuz as we saw he went all alone to stop Kaname but what he doesn’t know is that Yagari probably will restrain him >> Yagari: “ We hope that Kaname Kuran will continue to act FREELY like this …

I think Zero also told him about it and he said he will pretend not to hear it. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vampire_knight/v15/c074/21.htmlWas Zero warning him that time? Doesn't he know about it, apparently not... It was not openly discussed but it was probably common knowledge there.. Kaien did not know, apparently, hence he went aahead to stop Kaname by himself. lol, I'm thinking he is pretty uninformed for a figurehead president.. I hope he indeed wakes up soon and chooses a side, as well as Yuki. they are going to look foolish trying to defend the non-violent approach when everything around them is violence and they have no viable means to go against it..

2. Kaname wants to restrain/cage Yuuki and Kaien in order to protect them by rushing in a futile battle? Cuz if his message make them to try to react then the hunters will stop both of them … Or his last wording “next will be Sara” could make Yuuki and Cross stay at the academy to “protect” Sara hence both of them will be safe into academy … ???

if thats the case the mangaka is abusing the feeling of helplessness there by grilling Kaname more on the rack. Either way the decision to burn Kaname in Yuki's eyes lies on Kaien and what he will realize, in turn possibly saving both of them from Sara or the hunters. Like I said they both have to make a decision about their non violent beliefs because there's yet to be a side to offer a house to shelter it... they are alone and possibly in danger, depending on what the hunters might do with them or Sara. Each was given an "opponent" to face, Yuki with Sara and Kaien with the hunters.

Even if Kaien is no longer the official president, my impression is that Yagari and Kaien like splitting the work between them and it doesn't matter which one of them is the actual "president"

Um, so who is giving out Kaien's punishment if there is one?(scroll down)

Re: is it realistic that Yagari's plan involves killing all purebloods including Kaname minus Yuuki:

The hunter association was never able to get Shizuka Hio to be punished for her crimes against the Kiryu family, even when the Vampire Council had no reason to protect her. I can't imagine what plan they have for killing Kaname? H-bomb? Yuuki as bait?

We don't know much about who Yagari and Kaien are given orders by except that Yori's father is someone who outranks the Hunter Association and that he is a senator. Kaien had a conversation with Yuuki once about how vampires are a secret to the government.

The above link is Yagari discussing the intentions of the Board of Directors:

Yagari: For [the directors of the board who know about vampires] ...The vampires' superior intelligence and special skills are inevitibly something those men are burning to exploit. And they are also thinking that if they "do things right", they should be able to get their hands on the vampires' longevity as well.

Yagari sees himself as not exactly protecting vampires but stopping the board of directors from getting vampire blood.

From Nina:

Kaien was a tool from the very beginning with no real authority to make his decisions.

In chapter 50, before Kaien was telling Zero that Zero will be getting a promotion, Kaien asked Zero about if Zero will try to hunt down Kaname. Zero then said "no," and that is when Kaien told Zero about the possible promotion. If Zero has said "yes," it looks like Kaien would have not allowed a Zero promotion. Kaien and Yagari do recieve orders from this Board of Directors, but Kaien and Yagari have some say as to whether or not they will follow the orders.

I still say the Hunter Association is not strong enough to hunt purebloods. Maybe Zero is (but he is not stronger than Kaname), AND Yagari should be aware of what the Association is capable and not capable of doing.

I still say that Yagari's mutiny is a cover for some other intention that Yagari has. It doesn't have to be a complex explanation, it could be something as simple as Kaien is the real president and therefore is subject to the Board of Directors. If both Yagari and Kaien want to disobey orders of the Board, Yagari would choose to be the one to be seen going against the wishes of the Board, then Kaien won't be the one to suffer the second black mark on his record and the bigger punishment. Therefore, Yagari would chose to mutiny.

If anything, the largest corruption in the Hunter Association is not in the Hunter Assocaiation itself, but the Board of Directors, who probably want vampire blood.

Back to the ethics:

Nina:

Furthermore I have said in the past that HA’s structure does not differ so much from vampires’ society. Here what Yagari says about the way they choose their president >>>“The hunter criteria for picking our presidents is PURE STRENGTH … all that matters is whether the guy (potential president) is powerful enough TO CONTROL BY FEAR THE REST OF THE HUNTERS OR NOT…”

WHY they need to be controlled and more importantly by fear? Apparently for their instincts/thirst to kill vampires thus and the hunting list. Isn’t this similar with vampires’ instinct to seek blood from humans?These aren’t the same traits that vampires have? Aren’t vampires controlled and respect only the most fearsome vampire; >> the bee queen? Ergo it is obvious that morals or ethics have no gravity for the hunters … only raw power in order to inflict fear to the other hunters but also to their enemies …

So isn’t new that something is rotten in their association as well as in vampires’ society/rationale/traits. They need to change too …

I don't disagree with the need to change the Hunter Association. They do have vampire genes and have the same strengths and weaknesses as vampires, albeit on a smaller scale.

Where we differ is that I don't have a problem with vampires or hunters ruling by fear and power. Its kind of like dating: it sounds shallow but I wouldn't date someone who I can't find attractive. If they are attractive enough, then I'll judge brains, personality, being funny, etc. Haha, with me, looks come first, dating is not charity.

Being a leader is the same thing. Without any personal power, who would listen to their leader? If the leader does not have the ability with only their personality or raw power to make others listen, then how would anyone control the organization? First you choose a potential leader based on power, and then you judge the candidate's ethics. This is how Kaien chose Zero as the next President. This is why Kaname is an ideal leader: he has both the brains and the brawn to lead others.

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