Yeah, I love this type of argument. Those days most of top junior ladies that are 13 or 14 years old are able to execute 3Lz+3T, but because Janet Lynn executed 2A-2T 40 years ago, the system definitely sucks.

And then some people wonder why I don't like to come to forums, well, because after reading things like those you may start to lose your faith in humanity.

Sorry about that, but the fact remains that double axels-double toes, etc. evolved into triple doubles and triple-triples under the old system and now they are back. I don't see this as an advancement in technical skills.

Sorry about that, but the fact remains that double axels-double toes, etc. evolved into triple doubles and triple-triples under the old system and now they are back. I don't see this as an advancement in technical skills.

But the skaters have to fill out the program somehow. You can only do so many triples because of the Zayak rule. If there are more jump passes left, or if you still have room for another combination, a double axel or double-double combination is worth more than the alternatives (including a failed attempt at a triple you can't reliably succeed at).

- Take away the anonymity of the judges. Nail judges who are way out of line in the technical GOE or PCS.
- Have three judges who call for technical levels and have their marks count separately.
- Add rules that the 3T and 3Lo can be repeated three times, but only if it's used at least twice as a second or third jump in a combination.
- Have skaters earn a bonus of 2 points in the TES for landing a fully-rotated triple of every type and the 2A. Skaters who complete the 3A instead of 2A gain 4 extra points.
- Turn the layback spin into a Choreo layback spin. I'm sick and tired of the layback for 8 rotations, sidetwist, haircutter, Bielmann. All I need is the classic Layback spin position that's fast, centered, and has a beautiful attitude leg position.
- For the men, make the final spin a Choreo spin so that they use it for interpretative purposes.
- Bring back the Choreo spiral sequence for the short program and long program.
- Get rid of the five program components. Turn it into skating skills (power), transitions/choreography (composition), execution/interpretation (performance). And make it very clear that half of the execution/interpretation mark needs to be affected by the technical performance.

- Take away the anonymity of the judges. Nail judges who are way out of line in the technical GOE or PCS.
- Have three judges who call for technical levels and have their marks count separately.
- Add rules that the 3T and 3Lo can be repeated three times, but only if it's used at least twice as a second or third jump in a combination.
- Have skaters earn a bonus of 2 points in the TES for landing a fully-rotated triple of every type and the 2A. Skaters who complete the 3A instead of 2A gain 4 extra points.
- Turn the layback spin into a Choreo layback spin. I'm sick and tired of the layback for 8 rotations, sidetwist, haircutter, Bielmann. All I need is the classic Layback spin position that's fast, centered, and has a beautiful attitude leg position.
- For the men, make the final spin a Choreo spin so that they use it for interpretative purposes.
- Bring back the Choreo spiral sequence for the short program and long program.
- Get rid of the five program components. Turn it into skating skills (power), transitions/choreography (composition), execution/interpretation (performance). And make it very clear that half of the execution/interpretation mark needs to be affected by the technical performance.

- Have three judges who call for technical levels and have their marks count separately.

I'm not sure exactly what you're proposing, but this sounds exactly what the technical panel already is and does. Except the technical specialists are not necessarily judges.

- Have skaters earn a bonus of 2 points in the TES for landing a fully-rotated triple of every type and the 2A. Skaters who complete the 3A instead of 2A gain 4 extra points.
- Get rid of the five program components. Turn it into skating skills (power), transitions/choreography (composition), execution/interpretation (performance). And make it very clear that half of the execution/interpretation mark needs to be affected by the technical performance.

These are proposals worth considering, IMO.

- Bring back the Choreo spiral sequence for the short program and long program.
- Turn the layback spin into a Choreo layback spin. I'm sick and tired of the layback for 8 rotations, sidetwist, haircutter, Bielmann. All I need is the classic Layback spin position that's fast, centered, and has a beautiful attitude leg position.
- For the men, make the final spin a Choreo spin so that they use it for interpretative purposes.

Maybe there should be some serious rethinking about the separate purposes of the short/technical/first program and the long/free/second program, and the requirements for spins, sequences, and jumps should be more different in each. In one program specific technical skills would be required and/or more difficult combinations of technical skills within the element would be rewarded, and in the other program simple basic elements versions of the elements would be required or else difficulty of variations would not be rewarded so it would be worth more to do simple things well than difficult things only adequately.

- Turn the layback spin into a Choreo layback spin. I'm sick and tired of the layback for 8 rotations, sidetwist, haircutter, Bielmann. All I need is the classic Layback spin position that's fast, centered, and has a beautiful attitude leg position.
- For the men, make the final spin a Choreo spin so that they use it for interpretative purposes.
- Bring back the Choreo spiral sequence for the short program and long program.
- Get rid of the five program components. Turn it into skating skills (power), transitions/choreography (composition), execution/interpretation (performance). And make it very clear that half of the execution/interpretation mark needs to be affected by the technical performance.

Great point, I'm completely agree with your statement they should make choregraphy spins, spiral and step in all the program. The variation of position in arm in spin and the originality should be evaluate instead of making stupid rule for getting level and result of ugly spin and same spin by each skater. And, the step sequence in choreography is a great idea to make the skater put more personality into their program.

And, I miss the spiral sequence in the lady, it was great to watch and make a «Wow» factor in the program.

I think that there are four different ways that the rules can treat various skills:

1) Required -- everyone must do it, up to a certain standard, and will be significantly penalized if they fail to execute it acceptably or at all

2) Encouraged but not required -- earns points, maybe lots of them

3) Allowed -- neutral; earns technical points and/or contributes positively to the component scores, but could be omitted and the points made up elsewhere

4) Forbidden -- loses points if included -- I guess this would include not only illegal elements that receive deductions, and extra/repeated elements cause later legal elements not to count, but also falls because they also receive deductions

So what would you put into each of these categories? What skills should go into different categories in the short vs. long program?

I also propose that they give a 10% bonus for fully rotated 3/3 combos for ladies, to encourage them to attempt the combo more.

And to give an advantage to the skaters who are able to land them, it would be nice to have something like:
3T+3T and 3S+3T 10% bonus for the second jump
3Lo+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T 20% bonus for the second jump
combo with the 3Lo as the second jump 25% bonus for the second jump
And, generally, an additional 2 points bonus for the Ladies who land a clean 3-3 that includes 3F/3Lz!
And, this bonuses should be applied just to the fully rotated 3-3!

Maybe there should be some serious rethinking about the separate purposes of the short/technical/first program and the long/free/second program, and the requirements for spins, sequences, and jumps should be more different in each. In one program specific technical skills would be required and/or more difficult combinations of technical skills within the element would be rewarded, and in the other program simple basic elements versions of the elements would be required or else difficulty of variations would not be rewarded so it would be worth more to do simple things well than difficult things only adequately.

I would love to see that done on an experimental basis. This would speak to the quesion of the original post. You could call the two preograms the CoP program and the beautiful program.

But the skaters have to fill out the program somehow. You can only do so many triples because of the Zayak rule. If there are more jump passes left, or if you still have room for another combination, a double axel or double-double combination is worth more than the alternatives (including a failed attempt at a triple you can't reliably succeed at).

- Take away the anonymity of the judges. Nail judges who are way out of line in the technical GOE or PCS.
- Have three judges who call for technical levels and have their marks count separately.
- Add rules that the 3T and 3Lo can be repeated three times, but only if it's used at least twice as a second or third jump in a combination.
- Have skaters earn a bonus of 2 points in the TES for landing a fully-rotated triple of every type and the 2A. Skaters who complete the 3A instead of 2A gain 4 extra points.
- Turn the layback spin into a Choreo layback spin. I'm sick and tired of the layback for 8 rotations, sidetwist, haircutter, Bielmann. All I need is the classic Layback spin position that's fast, centered, and has a beautiful attitude leg position.
- For the men, make the final spin a Choreo spin so that they use it for interpretative purposes.
- Bring back the Choreo spiral sequence for the short program and long program.
- Get rid of the five program components. Turn it into skating skills (power), transitions/choreography (composition), execution/interpretation (performance). And make it very clear that half of the execution/interpretation mark needs to be affected by the technical performance.

I'm on board with all of these suggestions.

Originally Posted by Mathman

I would love to see that done on an experimental basis. This would speak to the quesion of the original post. You could call the two preograms the CoP program and the beautiful program.

Hah! I actually like this concept. COP for the SP and......dare we try.....old 6.0 for the FS?

- Turn the layback spin into a Choreo layback spin. I'm sick and tired of the layback for 8 rotations, sidetwist, haircutter, Bielmann. All I need is the classic Layback spin position that's fast, centered, and has a beautiful attitude leg position.

I actually appreciate a lot of the spins skaters are doing these days compared to the simple ones I've seen from 6.0 (I'm not a long-time figure skating fan that was watching during 6.0). Many skaters do great combination spins that are both complex and aesthetically pleasing, and change position in time to the music, creating a really nice effect (just a random example, I like this spin by Yukari Nakano). But I think the layback spin has really suffered from the level requirements. A simpler layback spin with good arm and leg positions is the most beautiful unless you can do a well-positioned and fast Biellmann spin like Alissa Czisny. Many skaters' Biellmann spins look painful, slow, and labored (and don't often match the music particularly well), and the haircutter position isn't so stunning that it should be as common as it is (in my opinion, though it can be nice), but if skaters do a simple layback spin instead, they're "leaving points on the table." I don't blame skaters for wanting to get high levels on their spins, but I wish it wasn't necessary on the layback because of how common it is to just get the initial layback position out of the way without any interesting arm positions (I even get this impression from Alissa Czisny, to be honest), and then proceed to a side layback/haircutter and then an often painful-looking/slow/lack-luster and just overused Biellmann. Maybe it's not the system's fault and more skaters should try going for GOE or PCS points instead of levels for layback spins.

1) increase the value of the +GOEs on the spins so that it's more valuable to get level 3 and +2 than level 4 and +1, definitely than level 4 w/ 0 GOE; at the same time, specify in the -GOE rules that judges should reduce the GOE for spins slowing down with a change of position -- that combination of changes would get rid of the incentive for skaters to end their laybacks with a Biellmann position if they can't do it well but would still reward those who can do it well

2) disallow the Biellmann position in the required short program layback (but it can still be used as a difficult position in the combo spin, and in a layback or general upright spin in the long program)

3) change the short program requirement so that not every lady must do a layback in every short program every year -- that would encourage skaters who don't excel at laybacks in general, with or without Biellmann position at the end, to choose other options where they can develop better quality, and thus they'll be more likely to choose that best skill as the spin-in-one-position in the long program as well; those who can do great laybacks will still do great laybacks