Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum? Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others? Maybe it is just because we cannot communicate our tone of voice very effectively through computer text? Or maybe it is people who are weak in their personal lives but OH MY they can be outspoken on the internet? Or possibly ALL forums are full of vocal people wanting to make themselves heard, and I have just not been on forums much?

No one is really being rude. They are being direct because they have done this fifty times in the last week alone. You see all theists really only have a few arguments that they use to support their claims. All of these arguments fall into one of three categories. They are either irrational, based on ignorance, or really, stunningly stupid. No theist has yet put up an argument that doesn't fall into these categories, at least not one that I've ever heard. Yet they keep repeating these same arguments over and over again constantly as if saying them enough times will alter reality enough to make them not pointless delusion. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The arguments are as worthless now as they have ever been.

So what you get with atheists, is you get a group of people that have to be subjected to the same inanity day after day, as theists try to prove their beliefs with the same arguments that have been overturned for years. Everytime it is definitively shown how completely wrong they are, they shake their heads and repeat the arguments over again with no evidence for why they should be believed or taken seriously. Then after they've been shot down repeatedly they resort to dodging and making circular statements and otherwise wasting time.

It's like a really annoying game of whack-a-mole.

So after a while you start to develop a noticeable lack of patience for dealing with such things. Especially when it's obvious that the person you're talking to isn't going to offer anything more intelligent or well thought-out than the ten others you talked to that day. So, to put it bluntly, I and many others lack a certain degree of patience for this sort of thing. Especially when the person makes it clear that they're not going to be any different than every other theist you talk to.

We don't believe in bombing abortion clinics or protesting outside the church service of a soldier killed at war.

You do however, all support the same belief system that they feel gives them the licence to do those things. You support the mentality of ignoring reality in deference to a desire to believe in the irrational and illogical. You pick and choose what reality means rather than taking an honest approach at looking at the world. You favour a system of beliefs in which it is impossible to determine fantasy from reality and puts every idea, no matter how stupid or dangerous on the same level. The difference where it matters is actually very slight.

He was a friend to all including women, children, prostitutes, thieves, liars.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. — Luke 19:27 1

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war”, “His eyes were as a flame of fire”, clothed in a vesture dipped in blood“, and “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”" Revelations 19

Jesus was a racist man who preached hatred and violence. Jesus messages of love where only for jews in regards to his fellow jews. For anyone who would not follow him or who was not a jew his was a message of utter hate and contempt. Let's do a little experiment. Go through the new testament and count how many times you see a non-believer portrayed or even talked about in a positive light.

In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness.

So what? So some people are comfortable living their lives in a comfortable lie. That has no basis on whether the belief is true. It certainly doesn't make it any less reasonable to believe it in the first place. Also this is a supposition on your part. You don't actually know how they would feel if they found out at the end that they had wasted their lives like that. They don't know either since they already believe it won't happen. It's not something that one can really say until it's happened. So again, what was your point?

Delusions often seem fulfilling until you realize that they're delusions. More to the point, lots of things can be fulfilling. You're stil not making any sort of point. You're just dancing around spouting completely meaningless platitudes that are entirely subjective.

Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

Pasqual's wager has already been done by the others so I won't bother. The one thing that I will point out that you have illustrated beautifully the basis of your entire faith. Fear.

There is nothing in this statement of yours but the implication of a threat. It is what you are basing your life on. The fear of what might happen. However what if the Wiccans are right? Or any of a thousand other religions? Why don't you fear those consequences as well?

Fear is basically the only weapon that religion has in it's arsenal.

Personally, I don't worry about it. Because I think that there's something worse than hell, and religion embodies it. Capitulation. That, in my mind is worse than hell. Knuckling under simply because I was terrified would be a true death as far as I'm concerned. If god has proof I'm always open to it and I'll judge it fairly. But I won't simply accept what is told to me because a bully says he'll bloody my nose.

"If God is real, why do people suffer? If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?" If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

But you do assume to understand how god works. You've made assumptions already and all over the place. You assume that he sends people to heaven and hell. You assume that god tells you to do certain things and not to do others. If god cannot be understood, then everything you believe is meaningless. By your own admission you don't actually know if it's true, nor can you ever know.

The same udnerstanding that you use to tell us that we can't understand god is the same understanding that you use to form the basis of your entire faith. So which is it?

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

Not all Christians are like the few vocal (can I say extremists) that are on the news. We don't believe in bombing abortion clinics or protesting outside the church service of a soldier killed at war.

Why not? Why are christians NOT the same? Do they not have the same god? Does the god who speaks to one christian, tell another something else just for the giggles?

When one christian claims that his prayer has raised a man from the dead, why do other christians doubt him?

Why do people claiming to be christians lie, even to one another about what god has told them or for what god has done for them.

When you observe that 9 out of 10 chistians lie about their relationship with god, why do you believe the remaining one?

A few years ago a show spoke about UFO sightings. The claimed that one was sighted over a town in england at a certain time. They asked for people to call in if they had also seen it. Several fervent UFO believers called in to report the sighting - except, the shows producers had just made it up as a test. Why did the UFO believers call in a false sighting? Because they wanted everyone else to believe their superstition even if it meant lying.

The history of religion is just that, people lying to support their own superstitions.

Who has been rude to you, East? I've read back, and can see nobody who has said anything rude to you.

Mind you, we all find different things rude. Personally, I find it rude when someone comes to this forum, doesn't bother learning how to use it, and doesn't answer any of the questions directed to them, preferring to preach instead and (not-so-subtly) imply everyone ELSE is rude, follish, and damned. That's just me though.

In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness. Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets. Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

Funny thing - I'm willing to bet that my life and your life would be pretty indistinguishable (apart from the obvious stuff, like going to church, and praying). I volunteer, I quit a high=paid job to earn less helping others, I'm a parent govenor...I do good stuff, I wear the "white hat". I'll bet if you didn't know, you'd have no idea I wasn't a Christian. (In fact, I'm sure you couldn't. After helping one person with severe problems, they discovered I was an atheist, and said to me "I had no idea....you seemed so nice")

And so, when I end up dead, if there IS a god, I will say to them "I led a good life". And if they damn me to eternal torment, then I too will have no regrets, as I would have the final proof that the god that exists was no god that I could call "good".

I am getting such an education about atheists here but I have to question if this is really typical of the majority.

The sad part is that - so far - you are NOT ecucating us about Chistians. You have displayed the same combination of arrogance, threats of hell, unsupported assertions, and question-dodging as most other "Christians" we see here. But maybe you AREN'T representative, and you will honestly address all the questions you have been asked. I'd be really pleased to see that happen.

I'm breaking the thread here, but, I want to answer the basic question of "Why won't God heal amputees?" The answer is: we can't know. Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town. When mocked during his crucifixion: "If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself, and one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us." Jesus Himself did not answer them. How can we today answer you?

The malefactors is a great illustration of the two types of people in the world. Those who scream "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us" or "Why won't God heal amputees?" and those who say unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" whom Jesus did answer: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Ok Why won't God heal amputees? We cannot Know. OK fine. Then you go on to make seveveral positive assertions, such as: Jesus healed only a few in his hometown. Did this really happen? The answer is the same: We cannot know.

There are many assertions going around the world, Jesus being a real physical manifestion of an invisible intangible entity, had mystic powers, and will take care of the invisible intangible essence of you after you die is one of them. If I replaced Jesus with Bhuddha, Osiris, or Hermes....would you give those the same benefit of the doubt or would you like to see a demonstration?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

Wow, that’s all you got, 54? You ask whether anyone knows someone who prayed to get his limb back. What if I said yes? Then what? I suspect you would insist that they didn’t ask in the “right” way, or that they weren’t “sincere” enough, the usual theist excuses. Tell me how you would answer if I said yes. I probably can even find someoen to say yes at the Lebanon Veterans Hospital. What do you say now?

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Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum? Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others? Maybe it is just because we cannot communicate our tone of voice very effectively through computer text? Or maybe it is people who are weak in their personal lives but OH MY they can be outspoken on the internet? Or possibly ALL forums are full of vocal people wanting to make themselves heard, and I have just not been on forums much?

More of the same false accusations and whining. No, we haven’t been rude. I haven’t been rude. I surely could be but I haven’t. I have simply asked you very hard questions for a theist. And now you want to whine about that rather than simply answer.

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Not all Christians are like the few vocal (can I say extremists) that are on the news. We don't believe in bombing abortion clinics or protesting outside the church service of a soldier killed at war. Jesus did not even address homosexuality. He was a friend to all including women, children, prostitutes, thieves, liars. Most Christians I know are not extremists or even very vocal about their faith. They believe in God and His Son Jesus the Christ. They believe in Heaven and hell. In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness. Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets. Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

I know that there are many different types of Christians. I was a Christian, my parents and brother and his family still are. Some of you however, *do* support bombing people who you don’t agree with, you support homosexuals being killed, etc. I have no way to know who the TrueChristianstm are since you *all* claim to be such a thing. All Christians are sure that their version is the only “true” one and they create their religion and their god in accordance to what they personally desire and hate. No divine entity needed. You’ve done just that when you claim to speak for all Christians. You assume so much and you are so wrong just by me looking around at the Christians I know. I see plenty of guilt and regrets in many many Christians. And ah, the usual Pascal’s Wager nonsense. So, if you died and realized that Amon-Ra was the real god, would you regret? No, you never even thought that far ahead, all sure that your relgion is true.

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I have to agree with the concept that "proof" in science changes. New evidence? That did not change the truth. The world was always round even when people thought it was flat. Nothing changed except that Christopher didn't fall off when he went sailing. Then man reconsidered and decided the new truth was that the world was round.

No, they did not decide, reality became too much for their nonsense, and that nonsense is still in your bible.

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God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should. "If God is real, why do people suffer? If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?" If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

So, is Amon-Ra a myth since he doesn’t answer prayers, *as far as you know*? Your god describes a being in some detail and that being, your God, doesn’t do what is promised by what is supposedly a book inspired directly by him. So which parts are nonsense, 54? Which can we ignore since they show a god that doesn’t act as promised? Indeed, why if your god loves everyone does evil exist? We have it claimed again and again in the bible that God loves everyone but gee doesn’t get around to explaining reality where there is no evidence that this is the case at all. You want to claim that you know all about God but then poof, as soon as the hard questions get asked, you decide that we are “finite” and can’t possibly know God with our “limited knowledge”. You really should have read over this forum more since your excuses for yoru god are just like every other ignorant Christian’s.

You have created your own strawman of atheists here already, 54. I can see that in your baseless claims that we are “rude”. It’s rather pitiful that you can’t actually engage in a discussion but have to make assumption after assumption and ignore question after question. Atheists want evidence of your claims, 54. Not just more platitudes. I’d love to see you show that you are the TrueChristian as opposed to all of those others whom you disagree with. At one point, your god was open to having competitions between his believers and those who weren’t, with water soaked altars, etc. I’d like to see you with one of those and say, Fred Phelps or Scott Roeder at the other and both of you declare what a TrueChristian is and see who God graces with his power. I know you’ll likely say that one shouldn’t “test” God but God is tested repeatedly in the bible and indeed actually says “test me” outright. I want to see the evidence that Thomas got when his faith was weak. I was losing my faith and it was weak and I prayed and prayed for God to help me. Why didn’t he, 54? You want to know why I’m an atheist and what atheists “are” and well, if your God exists as described, I shouldn’t be. But I am and that is a problem for you.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 09:18:23 AM by velkyn »

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

I'm breaking the thread here, but, I want to answer the basic question of "Why won't God heal amputees?" The answer is: we can't know. Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town. When mocked during his crucifixion: "If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself, and one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us." Jesus Himself did not answer them. How can we today answer you?

With evidence. And oh yes, knowing your own holy book, because your claims above are either wrong or more cherry-picking:

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25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Could it be that JC couldn't save himself? Could it be that this is a story?

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The malefactors is a great illustration of the two types of people in the world. Those who scream "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us" or "Why won't God heal amputees?" and those who say unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" whom Jesus did answer: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

And in the other gospels he doesn't say anythign like that adn the thieves reviled him. Indeed, Thomas himself questioned and got an answer. Why none to those of us who were Chritians and losing our faith?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum? Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others?

No. It's what the forum is designed for. If you don't like it, then go to a knitting and daisy growing forum. I've been to a much ruder Christian forum, where ad hominem attacks are the norm. This forum is polite by comparison of most forums I've been on.

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Jesus did not even address homosexuality. He was a friend to all including women, children, prostitutes, thieves, liars.

I don't know that he was, actually. He viewed them as fertile ground for conversion. I don't see how anyone with his puritanical views could be friends to sinners, esp with the apocalypse bearing down on him within "this generation".

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth. Secular views of origins is always changing. I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll. You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

We won't consider intelligent design, because we can see a clear trend to the foolishness of it.

Intelligent Design is in itself designed to stop people investigating anything, and saying "Oh, that's obviously intelligent design", when it really wasn't.

Intelligent Design is NOT CONSISTENT with the Bible. You are saying that there is a fault in the Bible. If the Bible is faulty, then why are you defending it?

You sound like a New Ager. I know someone who defends astrology and homeopathy with identical arguments to yours, above.

It's the standard fringe theory patter.

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."(matthew 5:29)

Oops I said it again. sorry.

I think the question "Why won't god heal amputees" should be asked to God Himself.

I will ask Him when I see Him later , because "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

I will ask Him when I see Him later , because "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Again, has no relevance. This is basically just another example of you being incapable of any discussion on an adult level.

Furthermore, this is preaching again. Either actually address the issues, or don't bother making the post please.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."(matthew 5:29)

Funny how I never see Christians with their hands cut off because of masturbation.

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Oops I said it again. sorry.

Always sweet to see a Christian lying and intentionally doing so, not just a slip.

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I think the question "Why won't god heal amputees" should be asked to God Himself.I will ask Him when I see Him later , because "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

the usual attempts by a Christain to put off everything until everyone is dead so they dont' actually have to admit their imaginary friend isn't real.

Funny that this god could at one time make fire rain from the sky and talk directly with people but now must resort to people like the current Christians on the forum, all whom disagree on what God "really" wants. And none of them can do anything like JC promised those that follow him could do. There could be few better examples on how nonsensical this religion is.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."(matthew 5:29)

Why not quote the WHOLE verse John, rather than cherry picking?

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."(matthew 5:29)

A passage that says "if EVER you do something that may make you sin - look at a woman lustfully, for example - you should immediately pluck out your eye. But nobody does that - like Velkyn says, there is a suspicious absence of one-eyed, one-handed Christians around. So do none of them take that line seriously? (A line allegedly directly spoken by Jesus, BTW). Or is it, in fact, irrelevant to the WWGHA question?

Tell me, John, has YOUR eye or hand ever caused you to sin? And while you are about it, care to explain how having a lower leg and foot causes sin? After all, that's what you are implying hree, is it not? That lower leg amputees are better off without it so they can't sin?

It is people like John 3 16 that (through bombarding me with irrelevant scripture and refusing to have a logical discussion with me or answer my questions) have helped me transform from a Christian into an agnostic. And they think their methods might actually convert people to Christianity...

I think the question "Why won't god heal amputees" should be asked to God Himself.

Come on. Christians are supposed to be god's go to people. They are the ones who are supposed to do the talking for him. The bible even says so...

Matthew 28:16-20King James Version (KJV) 16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Aren't christians supposed to teach us about Jesus and YHWH? So...

Why wont god heal amputees?

Aren't christians supposed to do his talking for him?

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

It is people like John 3 16 that (through bombarding me with irrelevant scripture and refusing to have a logical discussion with me or answer my questions) have helped me transform from a Christian into an agnostic. And they think their methods might actually convert people to Christianity...

Don't worry, they have faith that their methods are working despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.Every now and then that faith shatters, though; sometimes it isn't pretty, and other times it's hilarious.

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"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne

Is there a reason why so many in the atheist camp are incapable of understanding the use of hyperbole in ancient texts? Why would Jesus actually command us to pluck our eye out? When Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches, do you same posters take that statement literally? Do you honestly believe that Jesus thinks he is a vine and we are branches? It seems from what I've read so far on here tonight (I'm new here, btw. Hello!) and from many other atheist websites that Christians are often accused of being ignorant for being literalists, yet literal interpretations supplying the arguments of the atheists aren't questioned. I think an objective and truthful view of certain scriptures by atheists should be valued more than the purposeful abuse of literal interpretations just to achieve the "got'cha!" moments.

As for the question at hand about WWGHA: Personally, the question hinges on the worldview held by each one of us. For the atheist, this life is it. After we die, we're worm food. Therefore, the healing of the amputee in a supernatural fashion is required by the atheist in THIS life, before the amputee "dies." In a Christian worldview, humans will live forever and this life is only the beginning. Therefore, the healing of the amputee (and any other ailment prevalent in our fallen world) will happen after one goes to heaven. There is nothing in a Christian worldview that says supernatural healing must occur in this world in order for it to happen at all. In fact, the majority of "healing" will take place after one dies and is brought into eternity with God.

If I sustain a broken leg and visit the doctor, I am not going to be healed immediately no matter how great the doctor is. The process of healing here takes time and I am subject to that. The process of physical (in most cases) and spiritual healing also takes time and we are also subject to that whether or not we want it to happen at our discretion and on our timetable. Just some food for thought. Please respond. Thanks.

Is there a reason why so many in the atheist camp are incapable of understanding the use of hyperbole in ancient texts?

This is simply because metaphor, hyperboles and similar poetic means of communication can be cherry picked, misunderstood or ignored for one's convenience. Besides, I thought the salvation of one's soul was serious business, why can't our sole salvation be presented in clear, objective prose? Wouldn't it reach its objective more efficiently? In its current state it's nothing but a glorified poem written by a teenager or a Stephenie Meyer book: full of pretty words to distract people from the (nonexistent) meaning.

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I'm new here, btw. Hello!

Hello.

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I think an objective and truthful view of certain scriptures by atheists should be valued more than the purposeful abuse of literal interpretations just to achieve the "got'cha!" moments.

Aren't there 30000something Christian denominations? What is objective and truthful? Do you think of your beliefs as such?

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As for the question at hand about WWGHA: Personally, the question hinges on the worldview held by each one of us. For the atheist, this life is it. After we die, we're worm food. Therefore, the healing of the amputee in a supernatural fashion is required by the atheist in THIS life, before the amputee "dies."

Then why do christians pray for material things, and supposedly get them? Were physical miracles not committed in the bible itself?

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If I sustain a broken leg and visit the doctor, I am not going to be healed immediately no matter how great the doctor is. The process of healing here takes time and I am subject to that. The process of physical (in most cases) and spiritual healing also takes time and we are also subject to that whether or not we want it to happen at our discretion and on our timetable

If I were an omnipotent being and saw a man with a broken leg, I would surely heal them in an instant. But then again, I wouldn't let hunger, overpopulation, lack of clean water and whatnot exist.

Is there a reason why so many in the atheist camp are incapable of understanding the use of hyperbole in ancient texts? Why would Jesus actually command us to pluck our eye out?

Except when (forum member) John referenced that passage, he used it in the quite literal sense, relating to amputees. So not every Christian agrees it IS hyperbole - and (as usual) there is no explanation of how you determine which parts are - or are not - to be taken literally.

But let's look at those lines from Matthew 5....

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

These are the direct words of Jesus. He tells the listeners that if they look lustfully on a woman, they have broken god's law - which could result in them being cast into hell. Not a good thing, according to Jesus - so far better that they prevent themselves from sinning.

Now I quite agree that you COULD read it as meaning "if you have sinful thoughts, get rid of them" - but does that really make sense? Not really - because then Jesus' advice would read as "far better than you get rid of sinful thoughts than go to hell". Blindingly obviosu advice (if you'll excuse the pun), but doesn't really make sense, now does it? The metaphor being used is that it is better to live without something useful (your hand, your eye) than to go to hell. Are sinful thoughts useful?

And what if you, despite your best intentions, just CAN'T stop your naughty thoughts when you see an attractive woman? According to Jesus, those naughty thoughts will send you to hell - so in that case, would it NOT make much more sense to prevent the thoughts in the first place by blinding yourself? Sure - you may be blind, but at least you'll go to heaven. Just as Jesus said:"if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell"

As for the question at hand about WWGHA: Personally, the question hinges on the worldview held by each one of us.......

Nope. You have it all wrong. The point of the question is that - despite the promises made by god, and despite all the claims made by Christians, god will NOT cure anything - will not DO anything - that could just as easily have happened naturally. The question is not about healing amputees - it is about asking Christians why their god chooses NOT to heal this particular group when he - allegdely - heals everything else under the sun.

The question you may want to address - given your assertion that most healing takes place after death - is why your god apparently intervenes so much to cure so many other serious or trivial complaints here on earth, but studiously avoids healing amputees. What did they do that was so wrong to deserve such treatment?

The question you may want to address - given your assertion that most healing takes place after death - is why your god apparently intervenes so much to cure so many other serious or trivial complaints here on earth, but studiously avoids healing amputees. What did they do that was so wrong to deserve such treatment?

Is there a reason why so many in the atheist camp are incapable of understanding the use of hyperbole in ancient texts? Why would Jesus actually command us to pluck our eye out? When Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches, do you same posters take that statement literally? Do you honestly believe that Jesus thinks he is a vine and we are branches? It seems from what I've read so far on here tonight (I'm new here, btw. Hello!) and from many other atheist websites that Christians are often accused of being ignorant for being literalists, yet literal interpretations supplying the arguments of the atheists aren't questioned. I think an objective and truthful view of certain scriptures by atheists should be valued more than the purposeful abuse of literal interpretations just to achieve the "got'cha!" moments.

This issue in this case was a theist trying to use literal interpretation as a dodge for the question WWGHA, so it was thrown back to him. It isn't that we are incapable of figurative intrepretation. However, as pointed out, opening up the figurative box does allow for cherry picking

As for the question at hand about WWGHA: Personally, the question hinges on the worldview held by each one of us. For the atheist, this life is it. After we die, we're worm food. Therefore, the healing of the amputee in a supernatural fashion is required by the atheist in THIS life, before the amputee "dies." In a Christian worldview, humans will live forever and this life is only the beginning. Therefore, the healing of the amputee (and any other ailment prevalent in our fallen world) will happen after one goes to heaven. There is nothing in a Christian worldview that says supernatural healing must occur in this world in order for it to happen at all. In fact, the majority of "healing" will take place after one dies and is brought into eternity with God.

If I sustain a broken leg and visit the doctor, I am not going to be healed immediately no matter how great the doctor is. The process of healing here takes time and I am subject to that. The process of physical (in most cases) and spiritual healing also takes time and we are also subject to that whether or not we want it to happen at our discretion and on our timetable. Just some food for thought. Please respond. Thanks.

One, Do you think prayer affects the physical world, yes or no? Since you said "the majority" and not "all" I am going to assume you do think prayer affects the physical world. If so, why never amputees? Why does it only work in ambiguous circumstances? Secondly, this spiritual healing, got proof?

Logged

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

You are missing the point of the question and the site. There is a certian type of xian[1] who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention. The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc. We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed.

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning. First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers. It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis. Second, people of all religions make the same claims. And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally.

People never regrow lost limbs. Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets. Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover. Old people never rejuvenate.

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people. It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.