SockMonkeyHolocaust:Hey, can we get a spoilers tag for people who have never seen the series but think that one day they might be interested in seeing it but probably not?

What he said. Actually I don't really care about spoilers but I've never seen the series but might check it out someday if I'm bedridden with malaria or something and it's the only thing on. So what's his real name?

Mugato:SockMonkeyHolocaust: Hey, can we get a spoilers tag for people who have never seen the series but think that one day they might be interested in seeing it but probably not?

What he said. Actually I don't really care about spoilers but I've never seen the series but might check it out someday if I'm bedridden with malaria or something and it's the only thing on. So what's his real name?

The only thing that made my brain hurt was my DVR not recording it. I am trying not to torrent anymore so I finally found it on some website called Woot. Watched it on there but not in HD and on a smaller video screen.

Didn't really expect the Doctor's name to be Delmore. THAT was unexpected.

And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's 'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

It threw a monkey wrench into everything. Clara has always been there since before the first episode? And could she be seen or not? The first doctor seemed to hear and see her. And how could the River and Doctor kiss if she was just a projection? And that screws up the whole emotional moment of the Doctor's first kiss/Rivers last kiss at her jail cell. I'm just all confused basically.

MadSkillz:And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's 'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

...and yet I'll bet both of the writer's theories on Hurt's character are dead wrong. It's bad enough someone would need the episode spoon fed to them, but when the person doing it didn't understand what they saw, it's both hilarious and sad.

WTF Indeed:MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's 'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.

Walker:It threw a monkey wrench into everything. Clara has always been there since before the first episode? And could she be seen or not? The first doctor seemed to hear and see her. And how could the River and Doctor kiss if she was just a projection? And that screws up the whole emotional moment of the Doctor's first kiss/Rivers last kiss at her jail cell. I'm just all confused basically.

She's always been there, but as different women, just the same personality and soul, so to speak. She's the girl who was always there to give that extra suggestion/flash of brilliance that let him win in a pinch.

MadSkillz:And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's 'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

My guess is hes the one who ended the time war via what amounts to genocide. Next season could revolve around the doctor finally coming to terms with what he was forced to do during the war.

I'm guessing that Smith is really the last incarnation of the Doctor. If you put Hurt in between 8 and 9, and count Tennant as regenerating twice since he used up a regeneration in Journey's End, that means 10 to 11 was really the 12th regeneration. This also jibes with Clara only seeing 11 Doctors and the TARDIS still having the same "desktop".

I'm figuring the next season and beyond will involve the Doctor trying to avoid becoming the type of evil demigod that needs to be taken down at Trenzalore, plus a new set of regenerations being his reward if he manages to avoid his fate.

Walker:It threw a monkey wrench into everything. Clara has always been there since before the first episode? And could she be seen or not? The first doctor seemed to hear and see her. And how could the River and Doctor kiss if she was just a projection? And that screws up the whole emotional moment of the Doctor's first kiss/Rivers last kiss at her jail cell. I'm just all confused basically.

Yes, she could be seen (as the First Doctor saw her, plus her prior appearances in the season), but presumably, she spent the majority of time undoing stuff the GI did in the background (such as across the way from the Seventh Doctor's literal cliffhanger, but not directly involved in saving him), which is why the Doctor only recently noticed her repeating.

The Doctor kissing River is easy. As he said, being the only one that could see her, the kiss probably looked really weird to everyone else. The emotional moment for River for the first kiss/last kiss still makes sense because that River hadn't been to the Library yet, so she couldn't know that there was one final kiss coming for both of them.

John Hurt's Doctor needs to be something new and unmentioned if he's to be the Doctor's greatest secret and shame. Ending the Time War doesn't work, because despite what he did, the Doctor has never kept his part in it secret. Hurt as the Valeyard is interesting, but once again, not exactly "greatest secret" material.

I'm still wondering if this is working towards a variation of "the Other" storyline that was to be worked into Classic Who before its cancellation. I could see Hurt being a pre-first Doctor incarnation that did something horrible yet necessary for the greater good, but bothers him so much that he becomes The Doctor and seeks to make restitution for his crimes.

In fact, maybe that is how Eleven sacrifices himself in his last story. In order to prevent Trenzalore for happening, he needs to surrender himself to death so he never becomes so corrupt that countless people have to lay down their lives to stop him.

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

WTF Indeed:MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's 'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

As someone said in a previous thread: the next spinoff will be "The Victorian Lesbian Lizard Detective Agency".

Silence did fall when River Song answered the question. Vastra herself said it when she talked about how all the star systems were going dark.

"On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

Fields of Trenzalore ... check.at the fall of the 11th... 11 turned off the TARDIS' anti-grave and did indeed fall.when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer...River was a backup in the Library, not living.a Question will be asked...Clara, when seeing John Hurt, asked "Who's that?"...the question that must never be answered.

Mad_Radhu:I'm guessing that Smith is really the last incarnation of the Doctor. If you put Hurt in between 8 and 9, and count Tennant as regenerating twice since he used up a regeneration in Journey's End, that means 10 to 11 was really the 12th regeneration. This also jibes with Clara only seeing 11 Doctors and the TARDIS still having the same "desktop".

I'm figuring the next season and beyond will involve the Doctor trying to avoid becoming the type of evil demigod that needs to be taken down at Trenzalore, plus a new set of regenerations being his reward if he manages to avoid his fate.

Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining. The fall of the 11th that was mentioned in "The Wedding of River Song" could be that the Doctor died and was unable to regenerate, as seen in the episode "Turn Left". Stab the Doctor through both hearts, free his head from his neck, vaporize him with a Star Trek style phaser and regeneration won't happen. So, if he's the evil baddie as suggested he would become in "Trial of a Time Lord" as well as the predicted by the G.I. in "The Name of the Doctor", the Doctor may well be killed by those he suppressed, and killed in a fashion to make sure that he didn't come back. The only problem with the idea that he's a despot and he is killed in a revolt by those who see him as a dictator is why would they give him a tomb of any sort? Unless they just chucked his body into the TARDIS and closed the doors.

Also, remember that this is just the future described by the Great Intelligence. The G.I. could have just given one side of the story, or an abridged story. Honestly you could argue that the Doctor is just as responsible for every death caused by the Daleks as Davros is, considering that the Doctor had the chance to stop their creation and instead decided on what he considered to be the moral high ground. For all we know at this point, what the G.I. explained to everyone in "The Name of the Doctor" could be as accurate as saying "On D-Day, U.S. forces stormed a beach in France in order to invade Europe, forcing Hitler to use extreme force to keep the foreign invaders from his lands."

TV's Vinnie:I have a tire iron that I wanna use to make Steven Moffat's brain hurt for gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.

You honestly thought that was going to get answered? Truthfully, that is the one question that will never get answered because if it does get answered, the show ends. And honestly, I hope it never gets answered. Not because I want the show to continue forever, but at this point, no name could be as good as anything we've come up with.

Capital A:Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.

I like what Moffat is trying to do, I just think he needs a little help or some more polish to it before it will work perfectly. He's lucky Matt Smith is able to carry the whole thing. It would all fail hard without him to hold the thing together, but he does and does it well.

Great Janitor:Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.

Sergeant Grumbles:Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.

Wait a minute...didn't the regeneration limit get withdrawn in the Sarah Jane Adventures? It would make sense that the Time Lords would take off any limits they had to destroy the Daleks. Especially if it means a race that could take a fatal hit, regenerate, and keep coming back.

Besides, the regeneration 'limit' was being broken as early as 'The Five Doctors.' Remember when the Master's reward for getting the Doctor out of the Death Zone was 'a whole new regenerative cycle?'

The Doctor's number of regenerations isn't really worth arguing about. A different number for how many times he can regen has been stated on multiple occasions. Ranging from around 7 (I think) to over five hundred. Plus instances where he gained more regnerations, such as River sacrificing her remaining regens to save the Matt Smith Doctor's current form. Also, we have no real evidence that the so called 12 regenerations is a physical limit. It could very well be just a Gallifreyan law of some sort that can't be enforced anymore due to the Time War.

So it's likely, even if we only acknowledge the context of what we know about The Doctor thus far, that he can regenerate as many times as he needs to. Or in the very least he can regen enough times as to make having an upper limit a moot point.

As for John Hurt, my money's on the theory that he's the true 9th Doctor, and the subsequent regenerations just pretend he doesn't exist out of shame.

Sergeant Grumbles:Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.

In Classic Who, the Master was always after the Doctor's remaining lives, all the way up to the 8th Doctor movie. In that movie, the voice over explains that Time Lords are limited to 13 lives and that the Master had used up his, but the Master doesn't play by the rules. And after being cremated via execution, the Master regenerates into a (from what I read on another site) Skaro Serpent and hijacks a human body. This makes regeneration a bit more muddled. If there is no limit, just some taboo, then why would the Master, a renegade Time Lord, seek out to steal regenerations? And how was he able to regenerate in the Who movie if he had been reduced to ash? "Turn Left" has the Doctor drowning and unable to regenerate but the Master can pull it off without a body??? Hell, even in that movie its explained that the Doctor almost died because the drugs used almost inhibited the regeneration process. Die during heart surgery: possibly no regeneration. Killed and cremated and locked in a box: regeneration into nothing higher than a snake.

Guntram Shatterhand:Wait a minute...didn't the regeneration limit get withdrawn in the Sarah Jane Adventures? It would make sense that the Time Lords would take off any limits they had to destroy the Daleks. Especially if it means a race that could take a fatal hit, regenerate, and keep coming back.

Besides, the regeneration 'limit' was being broken as early as 'The Five Doctors.' Remember when the Master's reward for getting the Doctor out of the Death Zone was 'a whole new regenerative cycle?'

Short answer: Yes.Long answer: It's never said, to my knowledge, just what the exact limitation on regens is, just that there are ways around it. River was able to give up all of her regenerations, which would suggest there's a hard limit for how many you can "carry" at a time that can be recharged via some action.Perhaps it's a process like exposing yourself to the Eye of Harmony or the Untempered Schism again. Your average Joe Sixpack Timelord will probably never have access to it outside of major events like the Time War, but big players like the Doctor (or Valeyard) and the Master can get special permission.

The Doctor explains that the name you give yourself is a promise that you make to yourself. Considering that, I've been going through Fark threads and viewing people's Fark handles as that same sort of promise. Fark threads now amuse me more than ever now that I view the handles as promises that person has made and not just clever or funny names.

Another fan theory I've heard being kicked around is that John Hurt is a way for the BBC to retcon the 8th Doctor movie. Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

Great Janitor:In Classic Who, the Master was always after the Doctor's remaining lives, all the way up to the 8th Doctor movie. In that movie, the voice over explains that Time Lords are limited to 13 lives and that the Master had used up his, but the Master doesn't play by the rules. And after being cremated via execution, the Master regenerates into a (from what I read on another site) Skaro Serpent and hijacks a human body. This makes regeneration a bit more muddled. If there is no limit, just some taboo, then why would the Master, a renegade Time Lord, seek out to steal regenerations? And how was he able to regenerate in the Who movie if he had been reduced to ash? "Turn Left" has the Doctor drowning and unable to regenerate but the Master can pull it off without a body??? Hell, even in that movie its explained that the Doctor almost died because the drugs used almost inhibited the regeneration process. Die during heart surgery: possibly no regeneration. Killed and cremated and locked in a box: regeneration into nothing higher than a snake.

Good point about the Master being after the Regens. It's been a while since I saw that, and since River is fresh in my mind, didn't want to say there was strictly a hard limit based on how many a TARDIS sex baby had.

Though in speaking about River again, she used all of her regenerations to heal the Doctor from something his own regeneration wasn't capable of fixing.

It's possible that because the Master is a renegade, he's able to utilize regens in other ways than the way we've seen the Doctor do it. In NuWho, he came back with superpowers that one time. It would be nice to have a more concrete explanation, but perhaps the Master's methods let him survive longer and more, but come with other, higher prices than just switching bodies and personalities.

Esroc:Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

I doubt that. The TV movie was a joint production. The BBC wasn't surrendering anything to Fox, just sharing things.

More important: it's not worth dealing with in the series. None of the NuWho fans know shiat about regeneration limits. None of the oldWho fans have opinions which matter (I'm in the latter category, BTW).

I hope that whatever the John Hurt Doctor did to go against the name is more than just wiping out the Daleks and Timelords. The Doctor has never made it a secret that he was responsible for their deaths and while he feels guilty he knew it had to be done otherwise all of Time would be destroyed. Also, the Doctor still doesn't have huge reservations about wiping out entire races. He's wiped out the Daleks who knows how many times, same with the Cybermen, and if other bad guys get in his way and do not go with the peaceful alternative, he will kill them or at least put them in a situation that leaves them dead or stuck in time.

Whatever this Doctor has done would need to be not only destructive but also selfish and for the Doctor's own personal interests. This Doctor would also need to know some kind of secret that could wipe out civilizations otherwise keeping this Doctor a secret would mean nothing. He must have terrible knowledge that if anyone found out about it they could use it.

Esroc:Another fan theory I've heard being kicked around is that John Hurt is a way for the BBC to retcon the 8th Doctor movie. Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

But, it's just a fan rumor, so who the hell knows.

It sort of makes sense, even from a story point of view.I saw it said that Hurt Doctor could have been from the Time War, Doctor 8.5, who in the interest of peace and sanity, used The Moment to lock the Time War forever, destroying the Timelords in the process. This in-universe retconn potentially erased him entirely, leaving him back as 8 or forcing him into 9, with the paradox of him having escaped the Time Lock meaning 8.5 never really existed, but the Doctor still has memories of it and it's a part of his time tunnel.

Esroc:Another fan theory I've heard being kicked around is that John Hurt is a way for the BBC to retcon the 8th Doctor movie. Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

But, it's just a fan rumor, so who the hell knows.

Well, since they've shown McGann's face in Who several (ok, once or twice) times, I'm not sure about that.

Also, according to Wikipedia: "Fox did not exercise its option to pick up the series and Universal could not find another network interested in airing a new Doctor Who series. Thus no new series was produced until 2005, after all the contractual rights had returned to the BBC, and the movie became McGann's only televised appearance as the Eighth Doctor."

John Hurt is obviously the version of the Doctor that fought in the Time War because it would explain why only Tennent and Eccleston were asked to come back for the special since none of the previous Doctors would have any connection to the John Hurt Doctor.

ActionJoe:Also, the Doctor still doesn't have huge reservations about wiping out entire races.

He always gives them the choice to give up and change their ways. The Daleks give him pause in NuWho's "Dalek" and "Daleks Take Manhattan". The ending monologue from "Human Nature" kind of makes it apparent how fearsome he could be if he wanted to, but makes the conscious choice not to.

Maybe Hurt Doctor didn't give someone the choice to repent, and that is his sin.

ActionJoe:I hope that whatever the John Hurt Doctor did to go against the name is more than just wiping out the Daleks and Timelords. The Doctor has never made it a secret that he was responsible for their deaths and while he feels guilty he knew it had to be done otherwise all of Time would be destroyed. Also, the Doctor still doesn't have huge reservations about wiping out entire races. He's wiped out the Daleks who knows how many times, same with the Cybermen, and if other bad guys get in his way and do not go with the peaceful alternative, he will kill them or at least put them in a situation that leaves them dead or stuck in time.

Whatever this Doctor has done would need to be not only destructive but also selfish and for the Doctor's own personal interests. This Doctor would also need to know some kind of secret that could wipe out civilizations otherwise keeping this Doctor a secret would mean nothing. He must have terrible knowledge that if anyone found out about it they could use it.

It would make sense that what the John Hurt Doctor did that was so bad the Doctor refuses to acknowledge him but that Doctor stands seemingly justified in what he did, and not just wiping out the Daleks and Time Lords who were seeking to end the Universe, but something worse, knowing that in doing what he was about to do to end the Time War, he was going to kill billions of innocent people in collateral damage.

Here's my question. At the end of the episode when the Doctor gives Clara the leaf when she is lost, he appears to her finally and behind him the spinning white thing that I guess he went through is there, but disappears. Before the doctor went to rescue her he was saying that his timelines were collapsing on itself, yada yada yada. Does that mean that they are both trapped in an earlier/ later timeline of himself?

Sergeant Grumbles:The ending monologue from "Human Nature" kind of makes it apparent how fearsome he could be if he wanted to, but makes the conscious choice not to.

That was particularly cruel, but he makes no bones about that having been part of his life. I'm in the camp that believes that Hurt!Doctor (Anybody else think that's a very appropriate designation.), is from BEFORE he statred traveling. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. The limit on regenerations is a convention, not a biological limit. Hartnell was, retroactively I admit, called the FIRST Doctor, and ran away for a reason. Everything SINCE then he's been more or less open about. He makes no bones, even while denying the details, of having wiped out his own people.