Another go-round with a conversion of a Hybrid spellcaster along a type we haven't seen yet (though I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar to it or an Arcane Trickster type in Spellbound).

Spellthief: A cunning and stealthy spellcaster with a signature ability of filching magical capabilities from others.

SPELLTHIEF [Expert Class]Spellthieves use skill and arcane magic to drain the abilities of their opponents and turn their foes’ own powers against them. Spellthieves love the challenges that adventure brings, and they relish finding unique and inventive ways to use their abilities. Because they have such a wide variety of abilities, spellthieves can adapt themselves to overcome nearly any challenge, but they have neither the overpowering arcane might of mages nor the brute force of scouts or burglars. Spellthieves never cast two spells when one will do, and they excel at using misdirection and deception to overcome seemingly stronger opponents. Good spellthieves use their skills and magic to entertain themselves, protect those less gifted than themselves, and occasionally serve a cause or nation as a spy. Evil spellthieves use their versatile skills to trick and deceive, or plague large cities as daring cat burglars. Depending on your campaign, a Spellthief could be…• A magically enabled master of stealth• A professional mage slayer• A hunter of magical creatures• A magical and stealthy combatant

Party Role: Specialist/Wildcard. Spellthieves can fill any number of diverse roles in an adventuring group, depending on the skills and abilities of the other members of the party. They can at times function as a group’s expert on magic. With the right skill selection, a spellthief can act as a group’s primary scout and master of stealth. Because their abilities overlap with that of mages, burglars and scouts, a spellthief might have a hard time finding a niche in a group that already includes a character of each kind. In such a case, a spellthief usually concentrates on using spells to augment their class abilities and combat prowess and ends up pairing with the combat members of the group in most endeavors.

CORE ABILITY Stealthy Mage: When you spend an action die to boost a Spellcasting check or a Sneak check, you gain the same boost with your next check of the other type. Unless used by the end of your next Initiative Count, this bonus is lost.

CLASS ABILITIESSteal Spell: At Level 1, when you succeed a Melee or Unarmed attack you may spend 1 action die to siphon magic away from a target, draining a number of spell points equal to ½ the action die’s results (rounded up) from the target and add an equal amount of spell points to your own pool as temporary spell points. This action die cannot explode. If the target has spells, but no spell points, you may choose to steal one spell the target can cast up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You are able to cast this spell as if it were a Natural Spell (see FC p.234). Unless used by the end of the scene, these temporary spell points or known spells are lost. Example: A Career Level 5 spellthief who rolls a 1d4 action die and rolls a 3, may steal 2 spell points from the target or up to a 2nd level spell. The same spellthief at 5th level who rolls 2d6 and rolls a 7, may steal 4 spell points from the target or up to a 4th level spell. At Levels 5 and 9, you may spend and roll one additional action die while utilizing this ability.

Circle of Power I: At Level 3, you may cast Level 1 and lower spells you know.Circle of Power II: At Level 7, you may cast Level 2 and lower spells you know.

Bonus Feat: At Levels 4 and 8, you gain a bonus Covert or Spellcasting feat.

Improved Steal Spell I: At Level 4, instead of stealing spell points or a Known Spell, you may instead steal a single spell the target is currently effected by, up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You gain this spell as if you had just cast the spell as a Natural Spell (see FC p.234).Improved Steal Spell II: At Level 6, instead of stealing spell points, Known Spells, or active spell effects, you may instead steal a portion of the target’s Energy Resistance or Spell Defense. You may steal an amount of 1 type of Energy Resistance or an amount of Spell Defense equal to the spell points you would have drained, or the target’s highest resistance to that energy (whichever is lower). You gain the stolen energy resistance or spell defense until the end of the scene.Improved Steal Spell III: At Level 8, when you succeed a saving throw against a spell that targets you, you may spend 1 action die to absorb the incoming spell. You absorb a number of spell points equal to ½ the action die’s results (rounded up), adding them to your own pool as temporary spell points. This action die cannot explode. Unless used by the end of the scene, these temporary spell points are lost.

Ultimate Spell Thief: At Level 10, once per scene, when you steal a Known Spell or a Spell effect, you may add that spell to your Known Spells list.

Possible other "Breaker" options I considered?• Once per round when attacking a flat-footed character with a melee weapon or unarmed attack, you may roll twice, keeping the result you prefer.

• Once per round when you successfully make a Sneak check to Hide, you may immediately attempt a Spellcasting check with a Casting Time of up to 1 full action as a free action. This does not increase the number of spells you may normally cast per round.

Some Possible Feats...

COVERT FEATSSPELLTHIEF BASICSPrerequisites: Spellthief, Circle of Power IIBenefit: You may re-roll one failed Sneak or attack check each round, so long as the original roll was not an error.

SPELLTHIEF MASTERYPrerequisites: Spellthief BasicsBenefit: You may choose to re-roll your action dice roll used for your Steal Spell ability, though you must keep the second result even if it is lower.

DOH! I totally forgot about the Mist Dancer's Spell Theft feat tree. I had even considered if the Spellthief could be condensed to a feat tree but wanted to try it as a class first. Guess I got too used to just using the Core and Adventure Companion an forgot about the 2 'free-floating' pdf classes. /sigh

still an alternative view of an idea can be useful. If there is something about the mist dancer that does not gel with someones setting this provides and alternative that might be agreeable.

I've been thinking about that as well. Re-looking at the Mist Dancer, it only somewhat covers the same territory (a stealthy mage). This class covers a slightly different niche, and I think a useful one. The key question however is the class vs. the existing Spell Theft feat tree. Would it be best to incorporate those into the class instead of the class abilities or could they remain as individual entities?

Ok. I’ve been looking over the Crafty Spell Theft feats and the original 3X class. IMHO, the feats give a basic starting point to allow a very minor theme of a Spellthief. Basically a “dabbler” or “novice” set of abilities. I feel there is still a very good niche for the Spellthief over just using the existing feat tree. The point of the spellthief is to remove an adversaries casting ability while buffing your own. The existing feat tree really doesn’t seem to cover this in more than a superficial manner.

Why do I say dabbler? Basically this feat tree gives you Spell Theft, about as much as ‘The Gift’ gives you spellcasting.

The first feat’s stance allows you to gain 1 Spell Point when an adversary caster in close range casts a spell. This is a fairly decent ok option, as it is a passive spell point booster. However, it really doesn’t “steal” any power from the adversary as you are doing nothing to hinder their casting. Another huge drawback is that to gain yourself that big 1 SP boost, you can’t move. This restriction is entirely contrary to the original concept of the class, not to mention what the rest of the feat tree, all of which require the spellthief to be mobile.

As we increase up the tree, you increase adversary Spellcasting DCs if you are within Reach. For most mages this means having to be adjacent (which requires mobility). This presents a lot of problems. You need to get into melee range of the adversary to use this ability, which by default means you can’t use your stance. This seems contradictory in that most feat trees build on one another, not act in seclusion from other steps in the tree. Now, the trick you get however, finally “steals” 1 spell point from the adversary but only on a successful TIRE attempt, which again requires adjacency AND gets into using opposed Resolve checks and thus a high chance of failure. The requirement’s don’t seem to balance against the reward as its only 1 spell point at a time (so basically preventing 1 Level 1 spell). At advancing levels this has more and more diminishing returns since the drain doesn’t scale with higher and higher risks from needing to be adjacent.

The final feat in the tree only somewhat acts more like the class concept, in that it basically gives you a way to copy a spell but not actually steal it, unless you also get into using the trick which again requires getting into hard maneuvers, in this case FEINT attempts (Prestidigitation vs. Notice). Again, a lot of chances for failure with a somewhat low return on investment.

Basically, to get rudimentary Spell Theft abilities you need to invest 3 feats and a high portion of skill points to 2 specific skills (Resolve and Prestidigitation) to even utilize the abilities you gained from the feats. There is also the argument that the entire feat tree is limited in its use in that it is only usable against those Characters that actually have Spell Points. In many cases, this is highly disadvantageous as most NPC characters tend to have Natural Spells over actual spell points.

So, with all that said, I again say I think there is room for the Spellthief as an Expert class. However, since there are official feats, these should be incorporated into the class rather than ignored. Thus I present Revision 2 of the Spellthief.

REVISION 2

Spellthief: A cunning and stealthy spellcaster with a signature ability of filching magical capabilities from others.

SPELLTHIEF [Expert Class]Spellthieves use skill and arcane magic to drain the abilities of their opponents and turn their foes’ own powers against them. Spellthieves love the challenges that adventure brings, and they relish finding unique and inventive ways to use their abilities. Because they have such a wide variety of abilities, spellthieves can adapt themselves to overcome nearly any challenge, but they have neither the overpowering arcane might of mages nor the brute force of scouts or burglars. Spellthieves never cast two spells when one will do, and they excel at using misdirection and deception to overcome seemingly stronger opponents. Good spellthieves use their skills and magic to entertain themselves, protect those less gifted than themselves, and occasionally serve a cause or nation as a spy. Evil spellthieves use their versatile skills to trick and deceive, or plague large cities as daring cat burglars. Depending on your campaign, a Spellthief could be… • A magically enabled master of stealth • A professional mage slayer • A hunter of magical creatures • A magical and stealthy combatant

Party Role: Specialist/Wildcard. Spellthieves can fill any number of diverse roles in an adventuring group, depending on the skills and abilities of the other members of the party. They can at times function as a group’s expert on magic. With the right skill selection, a spellthief can act as a group’s primary scout and master of stealth. Because their abilities overlap with that of mages, burglars and scouts, a spellthief might have a hard time finding a niche in a group that already includes a character of each kind. In such a case, a spellthief usually concentrates on using spells to augment their class abilities and combat prowess and ends up pairing with the combat members of the group in most endeavors.

CORE ABILITY Stealthy Mage: When you spend an action die to boost a Spellcasting check or a Sneak check, you gain the same boost with your next check of the other type. Unless used by the end of your next Initiative Count, this bonus is lost.

CLASS ABILITIESImproved Spell Catcher: At Level 1, you slightly improve on your Spell Theft Basics feat. You may remain in the Spell Catcher stance even if you move. Further, while you are in the Spell Catcher stance you immediately gain 1 spell point when an adversary within Close Quarters casts a spell, even they don’t expend spell points to do so. At Level 5, whenever you would gain 1 spell point while in the Spell Catcher stance, you now gain spell points equal to ½ (rounded up) of the spell level the adversary caster casts. (e.g. An adversary casts a Level 3 spell; you would gain 2 spell points.) At Level 9, whenever you would gain 1 spell point while in the Spell Catcher stance, you now gain spell points equal to the spell level the adversary caster casts. (e.g. An adversary casts a Level 3 spell; you would gain 3 spell points.)

Circle of Power I: At Level 3, you may cast Level 1 and lower spells you know.Circle of Power II: At Level 7, you may cast Level 2 and lower spells you know.

Bonus Feat: At Levels 4 and 8, you gain a bonus Covert or Spellcasting feat.

Improved Mana Drain: At Level 4, when you succeed in the use of the Mana Drain (Tire Trick) and would gain and drain 1 spell point, you may instead spend up to 3 action dice, draining a number of spell points equal to ½ the action die’s results (rounded up) from the target and gaining an equal amount of spell points. These action dice may not explode. Further, if the target has spells but no spell points, you may choose to steal one spell the target can cast up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You are able to cast this spell once during the scene as if you know it. Spell points and Known Spells gained in this way are still lost if not used by the end of the combat.

Improved Spell Theft: At Level 6, instead of using Mana Drain to steal spell points or gain a Known Spell, you may instead steal a single spell the target is currently effected by or steal their Energy Resistance or Spell Defense. If you choose to steal an existing spell effect from a target, you can steal an affect up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You gain this spell as if you had just cast the spell as a Natural Spell (see FC p.234). If you choose to steal a target’s energy resistance or spell defense, you may steal an amount of 1 type of Energy Resistance or an amount of Spell Defense equal to the spell points you would have drained, or the target’s highest resistance to that energy or highest spell defense (whichever is lower). You gain the stolen energy resistance or spell defense until the end of the combat.

Improved Arcane Lobotomy: At Level 8, when you succeed in the use of the Arcane Lobotomy (Feint Trick) and would decrease the target’s known spells by 1, you in turn gain the stolen spell as a spell you cast once during the scene as if you know it. Further, known spells include Natural Spell and Divine spells.

Ultimate Spell Thief: You have mastered the art of stealing spells. At Level 10, once per scene, when you steal a known spell, instead of losing the ability to know that spell once for the scene and losing it at the end of the scene, you instead add that stolen spell permanently to your Known Spells list.

COVERT FEATSSPELLTHIEF BASICSPrerequisites: Spellthief, Circle of Power IIBenefit: You may re-roll one failed Resolve or Prestidigitation check each round, so long as the original roll was not an error.

SPELLTHIEF MASTERYPrerequisites: Spellthief BasicsBenefit: You may choose to re-roll your action dice roll used for your Improved Mana Drain ability, though you must keep the second result even if it is lower.

WARLOCK SPELLTHIEFPrerequisites: Invoking 1+, Spell Theft BasicsBenefit: When you acquire spell points through the use of Spell Theft, you may expend Spell Points as follows:• Expend 1 spell point per round to add 1d6 damage to you Eldritch Blast.• You may regenerate an already cast spell by expend 1 spell point per spell level of the expended spell, making that spell available for use once again.

Ok. I’ve been looking over the Crafty Spell Theft feats and the original 3X class. IMHO, the feats give a basic starting point to allow a very minor theme of a Spellthief. Basically a “dabbler” or “novice” set of abilities. I feel there is still a very good niche for the Spellthief over just using the existing feat tree. The point of the spellthief is to remove an adversaries casting ability while buffing your own. The existing feat tree really doesn’t seem to cover this in more than a superficial manner.

Funny, I always felt the point of the Spellthief in 3.5 was to take some of the perceived suck out of the Rouge/Magic-User and fill pages in the Complete Adventurer. It was a weak concept that barely filled 10 levels then. The tool best suited here is the Specialty, not the Expert class. Partly because the concept is so thin, but also because it's far easier to balance and keep flavorful and interesting.

The first feat’s stance allows you to gain 1 Spell Point when an adversary caster in close range casts a spell. This is a fairly decent ok option, as it is a passive spell point booster. However, it really doesn’t “steal” any power from the adversary as you are doing nothing to hinder their casting. Another huge drawback is that to gain yourself that big 1 SP boost, you can’t move. This restriction is entirely contrary to the original concept of the class, not to mention what the rest of the feat tree, all of which require the spellthief to be mobile.

As we increase up the tree, you increase adversary Spellcasting DCs if you are within Reach. For most mages this means having to be adjacent (which requires mobility). This presents a lot of problems. You need to get into melee range of the adversary to use this ability, which by default means you can’t use your stance. This seems contradictory in that most feat trees build on one another, not act in seclusion from other steps in the tree. Now, the trick you get however, finally “steals” 1 spell point from the adversary but only on a successful TIRE attempt, which again requires adjacency AND gets into using opposed Resolve checks and thus a high chance of failure. The requirement’s don’t seem to balance against the reward as its only 1 spell point at a time (so basically preventing 1 Level 1 spell). At advancing levels this has more and more diminishing returns since the drain doesn’t scale with higher and higher risks from needing to be adjacent.

The chain is intended for spellcasters who are looking to be up close and personal. A lot of stances limit movement. I haven't counted, but I'd bet most of them do. So I don't see your complaint. As for the success rate, so it fails. Big deal. A character with max ranks in Resolve and a 12 con is on an equal footing or has an advantage over a NPC who with it as a grade IV or less at level 1. This character concept probably should have a higher Con considering it's more melee oriented then a typical mage to boot. Also, if this is going to be a schtick for your caster, you want focus on resolve and prestidigitation and other tricks to abuse the tire and feint actions. Also, frankly, your GM shouldn't constantly be using NPC casters with high Resolve grades.

The final feat in the tree only somewhat acts more like the class concept, in that it basically gives you a way to copy a spell but not actually steal it, unless you also get into using the trick which again requires getting into hard maneuvers, in this case FEINT attempts (Prestidigitation vs. Notice). Again, a lot of chances for failure with a somewhat low return on investment.

Again, you build for that. Also, it's a far weaker argument then the Resolve one. The example Wizard has Resolve VII which is higher then I would build the NPC with, but then I want my npc casters to bungle a spell in combat from time to time. He doesn't have Notice though, and while Comp V is decent, any PC built to use the chain will be able to more or less ignore it.

Basically, to get rudimentary Spell Theft abilities you need to invest 3 feats and a high portion of skill points to 2 specific skills (Resolve and Prestidigitation) to even utilize the abilities you gained from the feats. There is also the argument that the entire feat tree is limited in its use in that it is only usable against those Characters that actually have Spell Points. In many cases, this is highly disadvantageous as most NPC characters tend to have Natural Spells over actual spell points.

Only if your GM is lazy and uses Natural Spell to build a casting NPC instead of to replicate spell like abilities. Normally it's not a huge deal, but if you have a PC with the Spell Theft chain, it's a dick move because you're specifically choosing to render his feats worthless to make your job easier.

Stealthy Mage: When you spend an action die to boost a Spellcasting check or a Sneak check, you gain the same boost with your next check of the other type. Unless used by the end of your next Initiative Count, this bonus is lost.

Has nothing to do with your theme and will almost never get used. Largely because of the time limit. Also, what happens when you want to use it outside of combat?

Improved Spell Catcher: At Level 1, you slightly improve on your Spell Theft Basics feat. You may remain in the Spell Catcher stance even if you move. Further, while you are in the Spell Catcher stance you immediately gain 1 spell point when an adversary within Close Quarters casts a spell, even they don’t expend spell points to do so. At Level 5, whenever you would gain 1 spell point while in the Spell Catcher stance, you now gain spell points equal to ½ (rounded up) of the spell level the adversary caster casts. (e.g. An adversary casts a Level 3 spell; you would gain 2 spell points.) At Level 7, whenever you would gain 1 spell point while in the Spell Catcher stance, you now gain spell points equal to the spell level the adversary caster casts. (e.g. An adversary casts a Level 3 spell; you would gain 3 spell points.)

Eh. This mostly feels like over compensating for what you perceive as weakness in the Spell Theft chain. Other then that, it seems downright boring and overpowered. Alex could have written the stance to scale more with level, or to effect Natural Spell or Divine magic. He didn't though, so maybe there's a reason for that.

Improved Mana Drain: At Level 4, when you succeed in the use of the Mana Drain (Tire Trick) and would gain and drain 1 spell point, you may instead spend up to 3 action dice, draining a number of spell points equal to ½ the action die’s results (rounded up) from the target and gaining an equal amount of spell points. These action dice may not explode. Further, if the target has spells but no spell points, you may choose to steal one spell the target can cast up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You are able to cast this spell once during the scene as if you know it. Spell points and Known Spells gained in this way are still lost if not used by the end of the combat.

Why make it so complicated? I get that you want to make an over powered class because you're used to the shovel loads of overpowered and under themed hybrid caster prestige classes that WotC put out to make playing a multi-classed magic user appealing to min-maxers, but the mage's power was cut back in a number of ways in FC, and broadened in others. The truth of the matter is that a truly strongly themed hybrid caster might make a master class with some expansion and creativity (Morg's take on the Bladesinger for example), but most of them are Specialties at best. The Mist Dancer combines elements of the SC2.0 Ninja and the 3.5 Shadow Dancer and Arcane Trickster to achieve enough cool for 10 levels.

Improved Spell Theft: At Level 6, instead of using Mana Drain to steal spell points or gain a Known Spell, you may instead steal a single spell the target is currently effected by or steal their Energy Resistance or Spell Defense. If you choose to steal an existing spell effect from a target, you can steal an affect up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You gain this spell as if you had just cast the spell as a Natural Spell (see FC p.234). If you choose to steal a target’s energy resistance or spell defense, you may steal an amount of 1 type of Energy Resistance or an amount of Spell Defense equal to the spell points you would have drained, or the target’s highest resistance to that energy or highest spell defense (whichever is lower). You gain the stolen energy resistance or spell defense until the end of the combat.

This is probably the only interesting bit here and could probably be turned into a feat branching off the Spell Theft Chain.

Improved Arcane Lobotomy: At Level 8, when you succeed in the use of the Arcane Lobotomy (Feint Trick) and would decrease the target’s known spells by 1, you in turn gain the stolen spell as a spell you cast once during the scene as if you know it. Further, known spells include Natural Spell and Divine spells.

Ultimate Spell Thief: You have mastered the art of stealing spells. At Level 10, once per scene, when you steal a known spell, instead of losing the ability to know that spell once for the scene and losing it at the end of the scene, you instead add that stolen spell permanently to your Known Spells list.

You know, the primary thing I look for in a game breaker? That it makes me go Wow and get all giddy thinking how awesome it is. This? Not getting that at all. In fact just the opposite. It's weak and makes for more book keeping, and is so situational that after the first few times you use it, it won't get used again because you already know the spells in question.

COVERT FEATSSPELLTHIEF BASICSPrerequisites: Spellthief, Circle of Power IIBenefit: You may re-roll one failed Resolve or Prestidigitation check each round, so long as the original roll was not an error.

SPELLTHIEF MASTERYPrerequisites: Spellthief BasicsBenefit: You may choose to re-roll your action dice roll used for your Improved Mana Drain ability, though you must keep the second result even if it is lower.

WARLOCK SPELLTHIEFPrerequisites: Invoking 1+, Spell Theft BasicsBenefit: When you acquire spell points through the use of Spell Theft, you may expend Spell Points as follows:• Expend 1 spell point per round to add 1d6 damage to you Eldritch Blast.• You may regenerate an already cast spell by expend 1 spell point per spell level of the expended spell, making that spell available for use once again.

No other feat has a class as a requirement. Your Warlock can't take Spell Theft since it requires Spellcasting.

Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von BraunRight now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery

@ KrenskyI will say… to each their own opinion. Your entire post basically summed up is “I don’t like. The concept sucks. The attempted mechanics suck, and because Alex already wrote some feats you shouldn’t even have bothered to try.” I’m sorry, but if you weren’t going to really add constructive comments, you could have said nothing.

With that said, I personally feel that there is room for an expert class that expands on the existing Spell Theft feat tree and you have done nothing to change my view of that. You could offer constructive criticism to help truly dissuade me from the concept or aid in balance, but to simply bash and trash… eh, I’ll take it all with a grain of salt. Also, considering that this is the “Licensed to Improvise” forum, throwing out comments that basically say “If Alex (Crafty) didn’t write it, it’s crap and not necessary” or “It was a D&D concept and sucked so it shouldn’t be converted” are not what I consider constructive comments.

The entire point of this exercise was to create an Expert Class that embraced and mimicked the core shtick of the Spellthief. IMHO, the 3 feats in the chain do not suffice to cover that and have room for expansion through an Expert Class.

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Funny, I always felt the point of the Spellthief in 3.5 was to take some of the perceived suck out of the Rouge/Magic-User and fill pages in the Complete Adventurer. It was a weak concept that barely filled 10 levels then. The tool best suited here is the Specialty, not the Expert class. Partly because the concept is so thin, but also because it's far easier to balance and keep flavorful and interesting.

IMHO, nothing took the suck out of any caster/multi-class as the system for multi-classed casting was broken in 3X. Period. The core concept of the spellthief class however, IMHO, is a good and interesting concept, if done right. If you don’t like the concept at all, don’t bother replying to it.

I feel that it basically sums up a core concept of neutralizing a caster without the core D&D concept of ‘bash it till it bleeds’. However, I agree that the 3X mechanics for making it a “base class” didn’t work well. It should have been a PrC from the start. I also don’t think the concept is as thin as you’d like to make it out and I’d have to say Crafty also didn’t wholly agree either or they wouldn’t have made a feat tree if as you say, a simple Specialty would have sufficed.

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“Which, frankly, is no different then almost any other stance.” and “A lot of stances limit movement. I haven't counted, but I'd bet most of them do.”

As to this, technically speaking, I’d have to say you’re wrong here. Of the 31 published stances (Core, Companion and Mist Dancer): 19 (61.3%) have zero movement penalties, while only 10 (32.2%) have the ‘no movement’ penalty, and 2 (6.5%) only limit actions like run and jump. So I would say that the ‘no movement clause’ is definitely in the minority, not the majority.

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“Also, frankly, your GM shouldn't constantly be using NPC casters with high Resolve grades.” and “Only if your GM is lazy and uses Natural Spell to build a casting NPC instead of to replicate spell like abilities. Normally it's not a huge deal, but if you have a PC with the Spell Theft chain, it's a dick move because you're specifically choosing to render his feats worthless to make your job easier.”

I also feel that isn’t the job of the GM to customize every encounter to be specifically geared to whatever specialties the party have or don’t have. The point of the bestiary is to be able to use them as-is and of the roughly 20 spellcasting bestiary entries I looked at, the average resolve is around 5, and a lot of them are natural casters. As a DM I’m not going to customize every bestiary entry so that the PC with Spell Theft gets to use their tricks every time. If you want to go with the hard core line of “the fests are good enough – deal with it” then you better own up to the fact that a character that takes them is going to get screwed a lot of the time because not all bestiary creatures use spell points. It’s not the DM’s job to make up for one part of the system (the feat design) by being forced to change another (not using Natural Spell), especially when under the construction system, using Natural Spell is recommended a lot more than giving an NPC Spellcasting since it covers both concepts – innate magic and divine magic, both of which are more prevalent that NPCs trained as mages.

On “Stealthy Mage”: This was from the older version that was more based on the Ghost feat tree. However, it can be used outside of combat. There are times when spellcasting and sneak checks can be made in non-combat scenes. Did you ask the question about what happens when a rune knight wants to use their core ability out of combat? And what about the time limit? It’s 1 full action. The rune knight ability works the same way. However, do you have any suggestions? Or are you just saying again that you think the whole concept is just crap?

On “Improved Spell Catcher”:

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Eh. This mostly feels like over compensating for what you perceive as weakness in the Spell Theft chain. Other then that, it seems downright boring and overpowered. Alex could have written the stance to scale more with level, or to effect Natural Spell or Divine magic. He didn't though, so maybe there's a reason for that.

Just because a version was put in writing, doesn’t make it the ‘end all be all’ of options. I personally feel that the existing feat tree is ok for what it is, but there is still room for some expanded options via a true specialist in the core concept. I actually Embraced the feat tree by trying to make an expert class that focuses on that feat tree and excels in it.

For example, just because you have say, a Soldier that has Axe Supremacy (3 out of his 18 or so feats) does not by definition make him a class built around being an ultimate axe master. It takes other abilities that help focus around that concept. In the same vein, having the 3 Spell Theft feats doesn’t necessarily make you a true specialist in Spell Thieving, if there are other options that can be developed to aid the concept.

Another example… Crafty wrote in the rules that skills have a rank cap of Career Level +4. Is this a weakness? No, it’s the base starting point. Yet specific sub-rules can alter that core rule. So by the same concepts, as is seen in other Crafty material, the idea of taking an existing feat and altering it with class abilities to make them function uniquely for that specialist is not out of line. Just because Alex didn’t write the base Spell Theft feats to scale, or to effect Divine/Natural spells, doesn’t mean that it Could never or Should never be done IMHO.

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Practiced Spellthief I & 2Again, this seems more about what you see as weakness in the Spell Theft chain then actually making an interesting class.

So I assume by this argument, that you feel that the core “Mettle” and “Master and Commander” class abilities don’t make for an interesting class and that they were written to cover perceived weaknesses?

It’s not about perceived weakness so much as about embracing Alex’s feats, but at the same time making this single expert class heroically good at the use of those feats versus just any joe-shmoe on the street with the same feats. That’s kind of the point of an expert class isn’t it?

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Why make it so complicated? I get that you want to make an over powered class because you're used to the shovel loads of overpowered and under themed hybrid caster prestige classes that WotC put out to make playing a multi-classed magic user appealing to min-maxers, but the mage's power was cut back in a number of ways in FC, and broadened in others.

To be honest, this was simply rude and unproductive. Please don’t presume to tell me what I “want”. Based on this comment, it leaves me to make the assume that you felt the Warlock experiment was crap as well, and that basically ANY deviance from something written in a Crafty book, especially if it comes from a D&D source, is simply crap. Got it.

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The truth of the matter is that a truly strongly themed hybrid caster might make a master class with some expansion and creativity (Morg's take on the Bladesinger for example), but most of them are Specialties at best. The Mist Dancer combines elements of the SC2.0 Ninja and the 3.5 Shadow Dancer and Arcane Trickster to achieve enough cool for 10 levels.

Yet, I seem to remember that Morgenstern agreed with me when I said there was a specific niche available for more hybrid caster classes, and he never said they all had to be master classes. Also, I think it was Alex, said that at least one of the Spellcasters in Spellbound will be more akin to a hybrid. I’m sorry, but just because you seem to have a serious beef with the Spellthief concept, presumably because it was a D&D concept, it doesn’t mean there is no place for it. I happen to know that a few people would be interested in an expert class of this ilk, which is why I am trying to create a balanced concept.

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Improved Arcane Lobotomy:More overpowering of the feat chain.

Want to actually give an example or reasoning of why it’s overpowered?

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Ultimate Spell Thief:You know, the primary thing I look for in a game breaker? That it makes me go Wow and get all giddy thinking how awesome it is. This? Not getting that at all. In fact just the opposite. It's weak and makes for more book keeping, and is so situational that after the first few times you use it, it won't get used again because you already know the spells in question.

Well at least semi-constructive. But again pretty much "Its weak. I don't like it." Ideas for something better maybe?

More bookkeeping? Really? If you already deal with a list of known spells, adding a spell is more bookkeeping? Does that apply to the Mist Dancer too?

As for the game-breaker... What about classes that don’t even really have a ‘gamebreaker’ like the beastmaster that simply gets a second use of an ability they’ve had since 4th level?

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No other feat has a class as a requirement. Your Warlock can't take Spell Theft since it requires Spellcasting.

Constructive Catch. Putting Spellthief as a Prerequisite was a holder that I forgot to change. It should be “Spell Theft Basics”.

As for the Warlock, re-read “Invoking”. It specifically states that it counts as Spellcasting for such purposes.

Overall, after all this reading and replying, I’ve gotten basically nothing useful out of it other than that you hate the concept and don’t think it should have been done, which could have been summed up in so many words.

LTI is for experimentation and content, not just bagging on the work people do. Excessive criticism only hurts the community and the environment we've spent years cultivating. If people can't share works in progress without fear of getting "beaten down" this ain't gonna work.

Ok, in the interest of experimenting and finding something that works, here is another set of revamped powers for consideration. Anything here working better, worse, etc? also looking for thoughts on what might work better in areas with the multiple ideas listed.

Italic = Same as old revisions

CORE ABILITY Spell Theft Expert: You excel at the art of spell theft. At Level 1 and for each Class Level thereafter, you gain 1 additional skill point that must be spent on Prestidigitation or Resolve.

<or>Spell Leech: You draw more power from stealing spells than most. Once per scene, when you succeed with a Spell Theft trick, you also gain a d6 action die. Unless used, this action die is lost at the end of the scene.

<or>Quick Steal: Once per round, you may spend an action die to make a free Feint or Tire attack action.

CLASS ABILITIESImproved Spell Catcher: At Level 1, adversary casters affected by your Spell Theft feats are also baffled for 3 rounds. Further, Spell Theft feats affect Natural and Divine spell as well as just casters with the Spellcasting skill. At Level 5, you gain the Spell Theft Mastery feat. At Level 9, you gain the Spell Theft Supremacy feat.

Furtive Trickster II: At Level 2, when you attack a target with the ability to cast spells with any spell or weapon, they are also targeted by a Feint or Tire action (your choice) with a DC equal to the attack’s result.Furtive Trickster II: At Level 7, the range of the increased Spellcasting checks ability from your Spell Theft Mastery feat improves to Close Quarters range.

Circle of Power I: At Level 3, you may cast Level 1 and lower spells you know.Circle of Power II: At Level 7, you may cast Level 2 and lower spells you know.

Bonus Feat: At Levels 4 and 8, you gain a bonus Covert or Spellcasting feat.

Super Mana Drain: At Level 4, when you succeed in the use of the Mana Drain (Tire Trick) you may, instead of gaining 1 spell point, spend an action die, draining a number of spell points equal to the action die’s results. This action die may not explode.

Useful Enchantment: At Level 6, instead of using Mana Drain to steal spell points, you may instead steal a single spell the target is currently effected by or steal their Energy Resistance or Spell Defense. If you choose to steal an existing spell effect from a target, you can steal an affect up to a spell level equal to the spell points you would have drained. You gain this spell as if you had just cast the spell as a Natural Spell (see FC p.234). If you choose to steal a target’s energy resistance or spell defense, you may steal an amount of 1 type of Energy Resistance or an amount of Spell Defense equal to the spell points you would have drained, or the target’s highest resistance to that energy or highest spell defense (whichever is lower). You gain the stolen energy resistance or spell defense until the end of the combat.

Level 8: At Level 8, you gain a +4 bonus with any skill checks made as part of a Feint or Tire action.

<or> each time you make a skill check made as part of a Feint or Tire action, you roll twice and keep the result you prefer.

<or>The lower of your Dexterity or Intelligence increases by 1 (your choice in the case of tie).

<or> you learn Counter Magic I. Further, when casting this spell, you may spend 1 additional spell point to make the spell a distance of Close, or 2 additional spell points to cast the spell as a half-action spell.

Ultimate Spell Thief: You have mastered the art of stealing spells. At Level 10, you do not leave the Spell Catcher stance even if you move or are knocked prone or sprawled. Further, you suffer no risk of becoming flat-footed when using the Spell Theft feats.

<or>Once per session, you may make 1 attack check, Will save , or Dexterity or Intelligence-based skill check, automatically scoring a natural 20. This roll is a threat and may be activated as a critical success. You may not be forced to re-roll this natural 20.

<or>you are so accustomed to shutting down casters that you may always act during surprise rounds. Additionally, you may take a normal round’s actions, not being restricted as normal by a surprise round.

The thing is, I didn't say the concept sucks or the mechanics suck. I said the concept was thin. It boils down to 'I steal other's magic'. That's certainly a valid concept, but it's thin. It doesn't really invoke any images or feelings. Especially since all of your examples invoke completely different concepts from what this class does. Mechanically, an expert class that is solely built around supercharging a single feat chain is, to me, bland. They work better as master classes, especially with the requirement exception that allows early entry we saw on the SC2.0 ones. Even there they're sort of bland.

With that said, I personally feel that there is room for an expert class that expands on the existing Spell Theft feat tree and you have done nothing to change my view of that. You could offer constructive criticism to help truly dissuade me from the concept or aid in balance, but to simply bash and trash… eh, I’ll take it all with a grain of salt. Also, considering that this is the “Licensed to Improvise” forum, throwing out comments that basically say “If Alex (Crafty) didn’t write it, it’s crap and not necessary” or “It was a D&D concept and sucked so it shouldn’t be converted” are not what I consider constructive comments.

Again, I didn't say if it's not Crafty it's crap. I didn't say it's not necessary, although this specific example I feel is. What I said was that the feats could have been written to be more powerful. They weren't even though it looks and feels like they should have. That gives me pause. Sure game designers makes mistakes, but I tend to assume there's a reason things are written the way they are.

I feel that it basically sums up a core concept of neutralizing a caster without the core D&D concept of ‘bash it till it bleeds’. However, I agree that the 3X mechanics for making it a “base class” didn’t work well. It should have been a PrC from the start. I also don’t think the concept is as thin as you’d like to make it out and I’d have to say Crafty also didn’t wholly agree either or they wouldn’t have made a feat tree if as you say, a simple Specialty would have sufficed.

I must not have been clear. A specialty that grants Spell Theft Basics. That said, a caster neutralizing class not hyperfocused on the Spell Theft chain would be interesting.

I also feel that isn’t the job of the GM to customize every encounter to be specifically geared to whatever specialties the party have or don’t have. The point of the bestiary is to be able to use them as-is and of the roughly 20 spellcasting bestiary entries I looked at, the average resolve is around 5, and a lot of them are natural casters. As a DM I’m not going to customize every bestiary entry so that the PC with Spell Theft gets to use their tricks every time. If you want to go with the hard core line of “the fests are good enough – deal with it” then you better own up to the fact that a character that takes them is going to get screwed a lot of the time because not all bestiary creatures use spell points. It’s not the DM’s job to make up for one part of the system (the feat design) by being forced to change another (not using Natural Spell), especially when under the construction system, using Natural Spell is recommended a lot more than giving an NPC Spellcasting since it covers both concepts – innate magic and divine magic, both of which are more prevalent that NPCs trained as mages.

I just searched the bestiary for natural spell. Almost all of them are used for things that are inherent abilities that aren't spell casting, but are most easily done using an existing spell. The book specifically says that tool using or trained magic users should use spellcasting.

As for your your comment about the GM building encounters taking the players abilities in account... well... if that's your opinion you're welcome to it. It's pretty much universally considered bad form to constantly negate the PCs abilities in any game. Even says so on page 331.

If the PC is building his character with the Spell Theft chain as a central schtick, he'll take options that strengthen his Resolve and Prestidigitation. Heck, most casters will try to keep Resolve high in general. That said, so the player fails. Big deal. It's part of the fun. If the player fails all the time because the GM never uses Spellcasting NPCs, that's a problem with the GM.

On “Stealthy Mage”: This was from the older version that was more based on the Ghost feat tree. However, it can be used outside of combat. There are times when spellcasting and sneak checks can be made in non-combat scenes. Did you ask the question about what happens when a rune knight wants to use their core ability out of combat? And what about the time limit? It’s 1 full action. The rune knight ability works the same way. However, do you have any suggestions?

The Rune Knight ability pretty much always involves combat. Attack checks only happen in combat. There's little call to boost spells outside combat since you can just Take 10. How do you define your next initiative when not under initiative? Six seconds? GM fiat? It may have been obvious to you, but it's not as written. Sneak is almost entirely used outside of combat, and likely to be boosted semi-regularly. So knowing when I have to use my spellcasting bonus by is sort of helpful.

For alternatives, the core conceit of what you want is a mage that steals other wizards magic as they're forming in, right?

How about a core ability that focuses on that.

Or one that lets you spend a die to increase your Spell Defense like you can your Defense.

Or one that lets you spend a action die to boost the caster's error range

On “Improved Spell Catcher”: Just because a version was put in writing, doesn’t make it the ‘end all be all’ of options. I personally feel that the existing feat tree is ok for what it is, but there is still room for some expanded options via a true specialist in the core concept. I actually Embraced the feat tree by trying to make an expert class that focuses on that feat tree and excels in it.

Yeah. That's my main problem. It's a class hyper specialized on a single feat chain. Not a feat tree, but a feat chain. No other class does this. The Beastmaster comes close, but even there it's abilities branch out. The beastmaster is probably the least mechanically interesting expert classes to boot.

Natural Spell covers non-spellcasting magical effects. I see no reason a spell theif should be able to steal a water elemental's water control or whatever. Similarly, while a world building issue, I see no reason they should be able to interfere with a divine blessing unless they themselves are a god.

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So I assume by this argument, that you feel that the core “Mettle” and “Master and Commander” class abilities don’t make for an interesting class and that they were written to cover perceived weaknesses?

Actually, I feel they're among the least interesting aspects of those classes.

It’s not about perceived weakness so much as about embracing Alex’s feats, but at the same time making this single expert class heroically good at the use of those feats versus just any joe-shmoe on the street with the same feats. That’s kind of the point of an expert class isn’t it?

Yes, but still don't see how this concept is so awesome and compelling that it calls for 10 levels focused like a laser on one single feat chain and schtick. It's like making a 10 level expert class based on tripping.

To be honest, this was simply rude and unproductive. Please don’t presume to tell me what I “want”. Based on this comment, it leaves me to make the assume that you felt the Warlock experiment was crap as well, and that basically ANY deviance from something written in a Crafty book, especially if it comes from a D&D source, is simply crap. Got it.

No, the Warlock had some interesting concepts and actually tried (and I'm trying to imply there that it failed) to do something interesting. It's most certainly not how I would have done it, but you dismissed my thoughts on the concept when someone else linked to them with out even apparently reading them. To me, Eldritch Blast is a feat chain and other then that it's a Specialty (which was linked to) that chain and some fluff and roleplaying rather then writing a whole new type of magic user.

You basically did that and did a decent job at it. I haven't deeply read it, but nothing jumped out at me other then the potential problem with using a skill in the Skill chapter.

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Improved Arcane Lobotomy:More overpowering of the feat chain.

Want to actually give an example or reasoning of why it’s overpowered?

Overcharging may have been a better term. It lets the spellthief steal stuff that make no sense. It lets them steal a minotaur's direction sense. A unicorn's healing touch. An angel's blessing. It doesn't make sense.

Ultimate Spell Thief:You know, the primary thing I look for in a game breaker? That it makes me go Wow and get all giddy thinking how awesome it is. This? Not getting that at all. In fact just the opposite. It's weak and makes for more book keeping, and is so situational that after the first few times you use it, it won't get used again because you already know the spells in question.

Well at least semi-constructive. But again pretty much "Its weak. I don't like it." Ideas for something better maybe?

Well, since my primary issue is I don't think it needs a game breaker because I don't think it should be a class, let's go with something rough and raw off the top of my head.

Ultimate Spell Thief: Once per adventure when you succeed with Arcane Lobotomy you may spend an action die to instead steal the die result in caster levels unti the end of the scene.

As for the game-breaker... What about classes that don’t even really have a ‘gamebreaker’ like the beastmaster that simply gets a second use of an ability they’ve had since 4th level?

They're weaker (or perhaps blander) then others. Beastmaster's game breaker is, to me, partly the way it is because it's over powered to dump all at 10. It's giving up your ability to poke at an enemy with your lance to let your pet dragon get two more actions. That is freaking huge.

Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von BraunRight now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery

Ok, points taken. The concept is unnecessary, thin, bland, overpowered and poorly conceived. Maybe I'll come back and take a stab at making a Specialty. I'll think about it, but I feel it'll probably be a futile effort.

For the Jackal class that I'm working on for my Al-Qadim stuff here's what I came up with as far as the class abilities. (Note that the Jackal was one of the earliest spell thief type classes.) For the most part, the concept is the same as Khaalis's Spell Thief class. So I melded what I had done on my own with his work and, well, here's how the class abilities come out with a mix of my stuff, Khaalis's stuff and a brief perusal of the high points of the 3.5 class. Rip it to shreds please.

Link goes to my PDF post (This is how I'm gonna do "final version PDFs" from now on. That way, users can always find the most up to date and finalized version of a class's PDF and not have dead links when I clean up my Google Drive.

1st: I’ll take that from your mind…, quiet countermeasures2nd: Practiced spell thief I3rd: Circle of power I4th: Bonus feat, sneak attack5th: Circle of power II6th: …And make it many!7th: Circle of power III, practiced spell thief II8th: Bonus feat, feedback resistance9th: Circle of power IV10th: Your power is now mine

Core Ability

Quiet Countermeasures: When you spend an action die to boost a Sneak check, your Spell Defense increased by the same amount. This increase is lost at the end of the scene or after you are the target of a spell, whichever comes first.

Class Abilities

I’ll Take That From Your Mind…: At Level 1, once per character per scene, as a half action, you may perform a Sense Motive vs. Bluff check. If you win the check, you learn all spells that the character can cast. Also, you gain a trick:Spell Filch (Feint Trick): Instead rendering the opponent flat-footed, you instead may choose to steal one spell that you know the target possesses that is of a level that you may cast. You are able to cast this spell once during the scene as if you know it. With a critical success, the target loses the use of the spell for the remainder of the scene. You may perform this trick a number of times per scene equal to your starting action dice.

Practiced Spell Thief I: At Level 2, you gain the Spell Theft Mastery feat. Also you gain a free Interest of your choice.

Practiced Spell Thief II: At Level 7, you gain the Spell Theft Supremacy feat. Also you gain an additional free Interest of your choice (for a total of 2).

Circle of Power I: At Level 3, you may cast Level 1 and lower spells you know.

Circle of Power II: At Level 5, you may cast Level 2 and lower spells you know.

Circle of Power III: At Level 7, you may cast Level 3 and lower spells you know.

Circle of Power IV: At Level 9, you may cast Level 4 and lower spells you know.

Bonus Feat: At Levels 4 and 8, you gain a bonus Covert or Spellcasting feat.

…And Make It Many!: At Level 6, you may cast spells stolen with your Spell Filch trick a number of times per scene equal to the number of Spellcasting feats you have instead of once per scene.

Feedback Resistance: At Level 8, sneak attack damage that you inflict on a spellcaster raises your spell resistance by the same amount. This effect last until the end of the scene.

Your Power Is Now Mine: At Level 10, during the scene in which you acquired it, you expend no spell points when you are casting a spell you stole with your Spell Filch trick or copied via your Spell Theft Supremacy feat. If the spellcaster that you stole or copied the spell from is in your close range, reduce his total spell points as if he had cast it whenever you do. Also, you may immediately add the stolen or copied spell permanently to your Known Spells list if you have a free slot for it.