330Mbps: BT extends fibre from node to premise

news British telco BT has revealed plans to modify its 80Mbps national fibre to the node rollout so that customers will be able to choose to have fibre fully extended to their premises, delivering a large speed upgrade to 330Mbps in the process and shifting its rollout model closer to Australia’s own National Broadband Network.

Turnbull broadly sees the FTTN technology as being able to offer Australian broadband users a significant speed boost compared to the speeds currently available via ADSL broadband (up to 24Mbps) through deploying fibre to streetside cabinets, while not requiring the same levels of investment which the Federal Government’s more ambitious National Broadband Network plan, which would see fibre extended all the way to Australian premises.

“Openreach today revealed a list of eight locations where it will pilot the delivery of ‘FTTP on Demand’. This service, which Openreach intends to make commercially available from Spring 2013, will enable customers to order an ultra-fast 330Mbps broadband connection directly to their home or business in an area served by Fibre to the Cabinet technology,” the telco wrote. “Previously, in order to receive 330Mbps speeds, customers had to be located in an FTTP-enabled area.”

Mike Galvin, Openreach’s MD Network Investment added: “FTTP on Demand has great potential and so we are proceeding with these pilots. Whilst we believe FTTC will be our mass market consumer product for some time yet, FTTP may be of interest to small and medium sized businesses and so we want to make it accessible throughout our fibre footprint. This development can potentially help SMEs to compete both at home and abroad as well as maintain and create jobs across the UK.”

Most of the UK will receive BT’s FTTN rollout, which has so far reached ten million premises across the country and is slated to pass approximately two thirds of UK premises by the end of 2014. However, the telco has also deployed FTTP in 15 telephone exchange areas to date and is also exploring the option of deploying the service to multi-dwelling units such as apartment blocks, where the fibre can support multiple connections.

Under the FTTP extension trial announced this week, retail ISPs will be able to order the extension process where there is interest and then assist Openreach with the cost of deployment. “It will then be up to the [ISP] to decide whether to absorb that likely one-off charge, recover it through higher monthly prices or pass it on in full to their customer,” BT wrote in its media release. “The pilots will enable Openreach to gain an in-depth understanding of the costs of deploying FTTP on Demand. Any installation fee is highly likely to be distance dependent given the nature of the necessary work.”

US telco Verison has also recently flagged the need for speeds higher than FTTN can provide, earlier this month launching a 300Mbps broadband service with unlimited data quota included that uses the same fibre to the home technology as the National Broadband Network, stating that homes with multiple devices using high-bandwidth applications simultaneously need the extra speeds.

opinion/analysis
BT’s decision to trial a service where fibre could be extended from streetside nodes all the way to premises in some areas is fascinating for three reasons.

Firstly, it shows that there is continuing demand from businesses and perhaps residents in the UK for speeds faster than 80Mbps, which the speed BT is seeking to provide nationally through its existing FTTN rollout. This gels with new survey data emerging from Australia at the moment, which is showing a high level of demand for broadband speeds faster than 50Mbps, and evidence that most customers on the up to 100Mbps NBN are also taking up higher speed plans in real life adoption trends.

This issue was predicted by former BT chief technology officer Peter Cochrane in late April this year, in testimony given to the UK parliament. One problem with FTTN, Cochrane said at the time, went to the speeds which FTTN offered (generally considered to be up to 80Mbps at the moment, although they may be extended in future) compared with fibre, which will in future off 1Gbps on Australia’s NBN infrastructure. “What are the leaders doing? There is Sweden in greater Europe, and in the Far East you have Korea, Japan and China. They have a minimum level of 100 Mbps. That is where they start,” Cochrane said.

Secondly, the UK rollout shows that, as NBN Co has experienced in Australia in areas where its fibre rollout will not quite reach, there is demand for co-investment models for fibre to be rolled out beyond telcos’ planned fibre footprints, with local communities and perhaps other Internet service providers contributing investment to ensure that fibre gets where it is needed and not just where each country’s principle fibre telco has planned to roll it out.

We’ve seen quite a bit of this demand in rural Australia, where many councils are concerned that they will be receiving inferior wireless NBN infrastructure from NBN Co and want to make sure they don’t get left behind in the emerging digital economy.

Lastly, it would appear to show that deploying FTTN is somewhat of a short-sighted policy for a national telco to take. BT isn’t even most of the way through its existing FTTN rollout, and yet it is already planning to start extending fibre all the way to the UK’s premises in some areas, due to demand. In my opinion, this situation will only be exacerbated in a decade or so, when Internet traffic demands have grown significantly and more and more residents and businesses are calling for fibre to be extended from the node to the premise.

Interesting times indeed. I believe we may see the resolution of the FTTN versus FTTH debate over the next few years.

117 COMMENTS

If FTTN had an easy upgrade path to FTTH, I dont think we’d be seeing anywhere near as much debate between the two as we do here. But as it doesnt, its an either/or project. One or the other, no compromise accepted.

Not sure on the details of how BT is rolling out FTTH, but if they are ripping up the nodes to put it in, then its just confirmation that FTTN was a huge waste of time and money – a white elephant, if you will.

Slightly off topic, I was looking at NBNCo’s rollout map last night, and they finally have details up for my area. Go to the map and plonk in a postcode of 2500. A couple of things surprised me a little.

Firstly, there is allready rollout happening in the northern suburbs. Secondly, for the areas not getting a rollout in the next 12 months, most were getting it in the next 3 years. So the bulk of the city is contracted to get NBN. Yay the Illawarra.

But the last point is the section that wasnt. Way down in the southwest corner of the city is an area with neither an orange or green overlay, showing it aint on the radar. So what happens to them once/if the coalition wins next year?

Will be interesting to see if a contract is signed before the election, or the coalition just fills in that gap with whats happening around it, or whether it sticks to FTTN and puts those suburbs behind the rest of the city for decades to come.

In 5 years or so will we see a similar situation to BT where areas having FTTN rolled out are replaced with FTTH? This little patch in this one city would be a prime candidate for that.

“If FTTN had an easy upgrade path to FTTH, I dont think we’d be seeing anywhere near as much debate between the two as we do here. But as it doesnt, its an either/or project. One or the other, no compromise accepted.”

That’s exactly right. I made a post on the forum about this before it was closed:

[There will be debates about exactly how much can be kept but the fact is much time and money will be wasted on a solution that has a very short life span. Since fibre is what it is the same “waste” arguments cannot be applied to it because if we ever need faster speeds the same fibre can be still be used and end points upgraded with little effort. The same cannot be said for FttN and I imagine it would be a logistical nightmare upgrading this at a latter date and more so if you only upgrade premises to FttH that are “willing to pay for it”]

Telstra haven’t upgraded any ISAMs to FTTP though, have they? Velocity/Opticomm/etc is only available is certain (newly built) estates. The closest to a Velocity brownfield is South Brisbane, but that is not a FTTN upgrade but a complete upgrade, similar to what NBN wants to do (different scale).

Optus is staunchly defending its eventual shut off of its HFC network, Telstra has no intention of expanding it. Even with that said, the technology itself provides almost no benefit to people on the point of termination due to the ‘shared’ nature of the HFC system. Regardless of whether its upgraded to the next DOCSIS revision (which incidentally there isnt one), the system is still shared in nature. They were never intentionally designed to carry data, DOCSIS gave it this ability.

The DOCSIS specification doesnt allow for streaming upload, which is just as useful for cloud storage and video-based services as ADSL is.

HFC was previously expensive, now fibre is quite cheap (cheaper than most other technologies – specifically wireless based ones). I suggest that when there was a business case for expanding HFC, there definitely isnt one now.

This is how I initally envisioned that the NBN rollout should go, that is – FTTN and then FTTH can be paid to be extended by NBNCo, or via the RSP to the premises. It could have been subsidised over the cost of a contract or what have you, for the service. However the question for me remained – how does the RSP recoup this cost in the event that the homeowner is temporary? (As in, renting / sub-let / short-term lease).

This wouldnt be any different to a mobile contract – or at least the same principle.

That was… until FTTH over FTTN was explained to me and I saw the light. Its just plain easier and cheaper to do the whole thing in one hit. Not to mention, you’d need to know how BT were funding the rollout previously and compare the costings between NBNCo’s FTTH straight up, to BT’s fix-up later on.

I’d suggest that you may be able to get this information for some form of comparison on costings from BT, under freedom of information. As an Australian-born citizen with British parents, I believe its still possible.

If in the end most of the customers did move to fibre all that they have achieved is a more expensive NBN. Rather then having passive cabinets they now have to maintain many active cabinets and have spent money on VDSLAMS in them. Not to mention they will have to also maintain those VDSLAMS and the copper for the few VDSL2 customers left.
It was debatable at the time when BT went to FTTN if it was the right way, if FTTH would have been a better long term investment. That was years ago. To want to start rolling out FTTN in a few years time would be just a avoidable waste.

“I believe we may see the resolution of the FTTN versus FTTH debate over the next few years.”
There’s a debate? MT wishes there was perhaps, but really people either know that FTTN is the better plan, or they believe what they are told.

Yeah I agree – it’ll squarely show that FTTH will be cheaper and provide more benefits.

Any productivity report would show this, it would be enquiring to engineers who build the network and their opinions on costings and analysis. It would variably show the profitability of the current business model , show the current timeline and projected returns on investment.

What it wouldnt show is the hidden costs like public benefit, or public costings for having to maintain a copper network with no projected return.

Thats expect tho when you’re replacing the entire telecommunications system. Its no different to when we setup a mobile site. Theres still trenching and the eventual fibre drop. Theres going to be some disruptions – but thats a good thing. It gives people a sense of movement from a government , rather than just being some blind policy that noone will ever see.

While the English and Kiwis seems to have made their decision already…d’oh.

Am I the only one who looks at Stephen Conroy and his filter and says to himself WTF. Then shakes his head, looks at him (and the NBN again and dare I say) then see one of the only politicians in Australia with foresight?

“shifting its rollout model closer to Australia’s own National Broadband Network.“

HUGE difference.

NBNco is 93% FTTP. BT’s rollout is 60% FTTN with selective extension of fiber from cabinet to premise (within the 60% footprint) paid for by applicant with no “uniform wholesale pricing” cross-subsidy.

“Whilst we believe FTTC will be our mass market consumer product for some time yet, FTTP may be of interest to small and medium sized businesses“
“Any installation fee is highly likely to be distance dependent given the nature of the necessary work.”

It is going to be very expensive and mainly aimed at business premises.

“NBNco is 93% FTTP. BT’s rollout is 60% FTTN with selective extension of fiber from cabinet to premise (within the 60% footprint) paid for by applicant with no “uniform wholesale pricing” cross-subsidy.”

NBNco > BT. AU > UK. Thanks for confirming that.

“It is going to be very expensive and mainly aimed at business premises.”

Customers on the NBN pay for their installation with easy and more manageable monthly payments. It is aimed at business and residential users. NBNco (and Australia) win again.

“How much it is to extend FTTN to FTTH?”
Malcolm “FTTN can get near FTTH speeds anyway”
“For the future”
Malcolm “There are new technologies coming out all the time”
“But if it stays on the copper, which is quite old, won’t it need to be maintained or replaced”
Malcolm “The NBN is a white elephant that will end up costing customers hundreds a month”
“Errr, what about the copper”
Malcolm “Sorry, I’m out of time”
“Ummm, OK thankyou”
Malcolm (to self) “Suckers, by then I will be out of government and have a nice cushy retirement job with Telstra for helping them milk their copper some more”

I give them credit for their decision to keep the upgrades rolling on with all the financial difficulties still going on over there.
Australia is in a boom and a great financial position, and our politics are mingling over the NBN. Now is a great time to keep it rolling.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the base price for FTTN > FTTP upgrade in the UK was about 1000GBP – or about $1600.00. And – that was the base price. For many subscribers, it would be far more. In addition, I believe that your ONLY choice of ISP with BT’s fibre is – you guessed it! – BT.

And if you think that isn’t a problem, try looking at some of the Brit sites and see how they have obviously learnt from Telstra how to gouge their customers, and provide totally crap customer service.

The most economical way to deploy FTTP is to pass all properties at the same time (economies of scale).
The cost of individual premises upgrade from FTTN to FTTP is not going to be cheap (think tens of thousands of dollars for a fibre upgrade roll per each home/business).

The cluelessness on this site continues. This article PROVES that there is an upgrade path from FTTN to FTTP and if required it can be done at a cost. Much smarter way to do it. FTTN is a bet in each court and the cost are a MASSIVE change!. They are also talking about England. It’s just a little more dense then Australia!

Read ANY network engineers discussion in the comments about BT’s FTTC network and you’ll see the FTTP GPON BYPASSES the cabinet completely. Which means, essentially, if EVERYONE decided (which they will eventually) they want FTTP, every SINGLE strand of fibre that currently goes into the FTTC cabinet, must be pulled out, spliced in a new FTTP cabinet (with optical switch) and run to the premises. The FTTC cabinet then becomes useless. And it costs THOUSANDS of dollars to put in the FTTC cabinets, then THOUSANDS of dollars per FTTP splicing.

This is double dipping, at the expense of the consumer, so BT doesn’t have to pay for the upgrade. How you can believe this is MORE sensible than simply saving THOUSANDS of dollars an FTTN cabinet and putting that money towards a FULL FTTH GPON now is absolutely beyond me. It is BAD policy, BAD economics and just generally and ridiculously BAD idea.

Actually, if you compare FTTN $16.9b with a 10y lifetime to FTTP $35.9b 30y lifetime then the FTTP solution has a 40% higher capital cost per year than a FTTN one. Based on just the capital cost, the ‘cheap’ solution will result in higher access charges to users than an ‘expensive’ FTTP one.

The BT model is much more sensible, the trouble with FTTP is the very high up-front cost and ongoing maintenance of millions of UPS systems and the need to upgrade millions of FBOTs to upgrade the speed to the home. In accounting using Nett Present Value later expenditure is discounted by your Internal rate of Return. Or it is recognising if you borrow money to day you have to pay interest on it from when you borrow it so in NPV terms IRR of 10% and FTTN 30 year life complete replacement every 10 years has Present Cost 24.8 Billion vs FTTP cost 35.9 Billion. So even though FTTN would not need complete replacement every 10 years it is still better return on investment to do FTTN
FTTN has no change to the individual householder existing equipment wheras FTTP requires FBOT and UPS to be installed at each house. This equipment needs to be maintained, UPS need battery replacement every 3-5 years. FTTN just needs UPS from the exchange and combined fibre power cable to the node. Much more cost effective and for the limited number of people that want fibre just run a node to the premisis at additional cost.

Sorry Warshawski, but you’re following pure economic and accounting measures. These DON’T add up when you look at the networks overall. You’re also misleading on some of your points.

“The BT model is much more sensible, the trouble with FTTP is the very high up-front cost and ongoing maintenance of millions of UPS systems and the need to upgrade millions of FBOTs to upgrade the speed to the home. ”

The UPS systems are ALOT cheaper and lower power than the systems needed to keep an FTTN cabinet running. The FTTP system uses 75% less power than a FTTN system. The UPS in the premises is NOT looked after by NBNCo. It is the responsibility of the tenant and/or ISP. The upgrades of the FBOT’s is only necessary once we go over 1Gbps, not likely for another 15-20 years at least.

“Or it is recognising if you borrow money to day you have to pay interest on it from when you borrow it so in NPV terms IRR of 10% and FTTN 30 year life complete replacement every 10 years has Present Cost 24.8 Billion vs FTTP cost 35.9 Billion.”

I’m sorry but this is a simplistic and VERY misleading way to look at it. FTTN will require:

More maintenance than FTTP (copper lines in the ground)
More expenditure for upgrades (copper must be replaced by fibre, MOST expensive parts)

Also, the “Borrowed” money for the FTTP, total interest is around 8 Billion dollars. This is paid back via government bond balancing over the life of the loan. It is NOT simply left accruing. FTTN money would be budget expense and, as such, would have to take money from other areas of the budget to allow expenditure. Unless you believe the budget can just rise without us borrowing more money every year and subsequently running a deficit?

” So even though FTTN would not need complete replacement every 10 years it is still better return on investment to do FTTN”

I’m sorry, but this is not true. ALL the copper lines must be replaced as we move to FTTP. These lines must be connected DIRECTLY to the fibre BEFORE it reaches the FTTN cabinet, otherwise, you end up with a FTTH-CITC-FTTB network (Fibre to the home, Copper in the Cabinet, Fibre to the Base). This means splicing and input of an optical switch, in a separate cabinet, next to the FTTN cabinet. This means, the FTTN cabinet is now pointless and more expensive once the majority have moved to FTTP (which WILL happen in the next 10-15 years).

“FTTN has no change to the individual householder existing equipment wheras FTTP requires FBOT and UPS to be installed at each house. ”

I’m sorry, again, this is misleading. While there will be no FBOT, the premises MUST have a VDSL modem on FTTN. These are MUCH more expensive currently than ordinary ADSL modems. Yes, the price will come down as more were to be bought, but they would STILL be hundreds of dollars, as compared to less than $100 now for the majority of cases. Who absorbs this cost?? The consumer, NOT teh telco (they pass it on in lengthening contracts, increasing monthly charges or upfront setup costs). The FBOT (or NTD as we call it) is paid for by NBNCo. It is part of the cost of the rollout.

Again, the UPS is the problem of the ISP. NBNCo. have stated this. It will also be Opt-in. Many people use mobiles for emergency contact and don’t want or need permanent on landlines.

“FTTN just needs UPS from the exchange and combined fibre power cable to the node. Much more cost effective and for the limited number of people that want fibre just run a node to the premisis at additional cost.”

This UPS is TENS of times larger than the individual UPS’s for a single premises. IT is simply shifting the UPS from the individual to aggregate at the node. It will need JUST as much cost and maintenance as individual houses. It is simply slightly easier to maintain.

You’re comparison talks about ONLY the economic potential of FTTN first. There is MUCH economic potential in FTTP to begin with including:

– Decreased overall maintenance costs (the cost to maintain fibre and its’ equipment is 1/5 of copper)
– Economy of scale- See previous post about the ex-CEO of BT showing they missed out on HUGE savings by NOT running FTTP everywhere NOW and reaping the benefits over the next 20-30 years of no upgrade costs.
– Boost in productivity from cheap, reliable and effective upstream data- again see the ex-CEO of BT’s comments. FTTN CANNOT provide these upstream speeds.

“the trouble with FTTP is the very high up-front cost and ongoing maintenance of millions of UPS systems”

False. “UPS systems” feature is optional.

“FTTN has no change to the individual householder existing equipment”

False. You need new equipment in your house regardless.

“FTTP requires FBOT and UPS to be installed at each house.”

False. A UPS is not a requirement.

“Much more cost effective”

False. It is a waste of money.

“for the limited number of people that want fibre just run a node to the premisis at additional cost.”

False. A majority is not a “limited number of people”. Most people in Australia are in favor of a nationwide FttH rollout. The numbers speak for themselves too. So far 30% have chosen the 50/20mbps plan and 37% have chosen the 100/40mbps plan. It’s questionable just how many would get anything near 50/20 on a FttN patchwork and 100/40 is most likely impossible and if you want to offer 250/100, 500/200 & 1000/400mbps plans like NBNco will be offering in the future you can forget about it too.

I’m glad I waited to reply.
I was about to say that Warshawski has made a compelling argument, except that I did manage to get confused (i’m not up to date with the accounting side of things) and would then have had to do a heap of googling to verify if anything that was stated was true.
Thankfull Seven_Tech has bet me too it and I have let him do all the dirty work.

But what I will say, is that Warshawski has provided the first and only valid argument against FTTH as compared to the FTTN that I have seen in my month (or more) long trawl into the pros and cons of the NBN.

And it seems that Seven_Tech has rebuttled that one well.

I am more than willing to hear both sides of the argument and am happy if more information is to arise, but at the moment I can’t see one simple reason why the NBN as it stands, shouldn’t go ahead.

Seven_Tech: I think the USP is ‘opt-out’ rather than ‘opt-in’. Well that’s what they told me when I was in the bus. It was originally to be mandatory by way of legislation, but because of customer concern, they were allowed to change it.

Anthony, my apologies, I meant Opt-out. It is, however, assumed that NO-ONE will opt-put in the current Corporate Plan (not the updated one yet). So if ANYONE opts out at all, there will be cost savings.

I’m not certain this has been fulled tied down however. I guess we will have to wait and see. I know personally I’d opt-in down here, because of the shocking power we get. But I know if I lived in Sydney, I wouldn’t bother and I’d just use my mobile and opt-out.

I try to be as factual as possible in my rebuttals. I know I get over-wrought sometimes, particularly with people like Matthew and alain, but that’s mainly because their arguments are, by and large, NOT based in fact. At least Warshawski’s are largely based in fact. But they miss out on some important considerations IMO, hence my rebuttal.

That’s great for you Anthony. But you’re on T-Box. Not everyone is. And most people’s routers DON’T have battery backup. Mine doesn’t, even though I have my PC into a UPS.

The fact is, yes, the mobile towers will be congested. But Telstra, Optus and the like KNOW they have a duty in disaster situations to keep the information flowing. They have emergency systems AND mobile units they can setup to relieve congestion OR give reception where areas either don’t have it at all or because other cells have gone down.

I don’t know about you, but I certainly don’t even have an old corded phone anymore. Sure, we have a fax. But it won’t work on the line as a phone without power. The fact is, more and more people don’t even HAVE or use a landline phone (whether that be because they ONLY use mobile, though that’s likely to only ever be less than 10 or 15%. Because they use Naked DSL which will only get MORE likely with the NBN OR because they use VOIP and only have their landline as a “call-in” number as a result of not having Naked DSL available in their area, like we do.)

I appreciate what happened to you in the earthquake, but have a look at the Vic bushfires- EVERYONE heaped praise on Telstra/Optus for keeping the cells open and working and using their mobile cells and even, yes, their mobile exchanges. It was about the ONLY good thing that was found during the Black Saturday fires. Yes, congestion in a situation like that will ALWAYS be a problem. But if people just keep calm and try patiently, they can get through. It’s no different from when landlines were the ONLY way to get through- they used to get backed up something chronic in disasters.

Yeah it was lucky, she got it two days before.
We didn’t even know it had a battery in it till we tried.

The point was only to illustrate what actually happened on a small scale emergency.
And it was for this very reason why it was legislated in the first place.

The commonwealth has a responsibility to ensure safety of it’s citizens and develops policy for this.

I personally would have an NBN UPS installed for that very reason. But I also keep a spare mobile phone in my drawer and we do have a powerless telstra phone for that reason too.

All this stuff is just being safe rather than sorry. Even if your neighbour has one in a box in the closet. It’s still better than relying on someone else (by this I mean, a mobile network that is prone to conjestion).
Emergency: torches, candles, fire extinguisher, UPS, batteryless phone….

Problem is, we’re moving to an NBN world. And the NBN always-on phone relies on batteries…..and batteries go flat. There IS no option that will enable us, under the NBN, to have always-on phones permanently, as we do now. But, seeing as we have all SORTS of other backups, from CB’s to mobiles, I don’t think it is AS big of a deal as when there WAS no other alternative. We’ve moved on as a society from requiring one ALL encompassing backup system IMO. Today’s systems are ALL about compartmentalising the backups for redundancy. After all, if an exchange UPS goes dead THOUSANDS of people all of a sudden are dumped onto other backups like mobiles. And it happens.

The ideal solution would be to use a GAON (Gigabit ACTIVE Optical Network) but the technology behind “powering” optical cables for offline use is VERY early in its’ research from what I understand.

I would still like a data port active during a blackout if possible.
You can then get on FB and see what others are posting about what is happening.
With a phone line (if it’s active) you can only call someone and ask ‘What happened?’
With them probably saying ‘I don’t know’
So you have to call some one else.

Anyone know how it is possible to Backup the Hardwired fibre signal with a UPS?
Would be interested to know.
aw

I believe it is possible to UPS the data port. But by default it isn’t.

I’m not sure how you’d go about it. Whether you could just hack it and do it yourself or whether there would be a legitimate way of either changing the internal UPS connection or putting your own on. I’ve not had much to do with the NTD’s as yet (obviously…) so if I had time to muck around, could probably find out.

I here what you’re saying- a phone line is static. The internet is dynamic and updating, especially in emergency situations. Again, it’s always good to have the mobile phone backup anyway, which, at worst, you could use as a hotspot on your laptop. Although I know you’ve gotta be careful with power.

Apart from the problems with local government and planning laws adding delays, each ands every one will need cuncil approval which doesn’t come cheap you have to add the fact that you will need to connect electricity to each of these cabinets, this also doesn’t come quickly or cheaply. Finally, you have a not insignificant electricity bill. If you look at their annual report, the big ticket item in Telstra’s costs is electricity. It dwarfs everything else.

He’s worked for Optus AND Telstra before. As well as other networking companies.

The full presentation is an eye opener to anyone who doesn’t understand the technicalities of the rollout. It’s fairly complex (it was given at the engineering faculty after all) but it’s WELL worth the view.

And it just shows how very far behind, in data throughput capability, wireless is. Will it match fibre someday? Perhaps, but it will be DECADES before we see the throughput WITHOUT slowdown due to contention achieved, but by then fibre will have moved on again too.

Yes, just get on with it. 79%
Yes, but in a different form/funding model/technology 13%
No, we don’t need it. 8%
Total votes: 2760.

And now he said he is not prepared to cancel the estimated $1.8 billion worth of contracts underpinning the rollout, already signed by NBN Co.

“The Coalition’s aim is not to cancel contracts but rather, renegotiate existing contracts where possible to accommodate different architectures and lower the capital cost of the network and hence, the end cost to consumers,” Mr Turnbull said.

He told IT Pro “a range of architectures” would include fibre-to-the-premises for homes and businesses in greenfield areas; fibre-to-the-node where possible and HFC.

These statements from Turnbull is what really concerns me though. So having contracts in place does not necessarily guarantee that an area will get FTTP it seems. Or am I reading this wrongly.

If you do a real quick search through the NBNCo rollout map, you can see that massive areas of each city have already either begun or are planned (so we’re assuming they’ve been signed as contracts for work).

Given that so many of these areas are already in the pipeline, even if the government does get chucked out next year – I think we can confidently say that the rollout would continue as is, not scaled back at all.

Honestly I think the big question here is whether Tony Abbott or Julia Gillard will get the boot in the next few months run-up to election time – both things happening would be a massive game changer.

“Given that so many of these areas are already in the pipeline, even if the government does get chucked out next year – I think we can confidently say that the rollout would continue as is, not scaled back at all.”

I hope so also but given how vague the Coalition are as regards their broadband policy, an area scheduled to receive FTTP (eg where I live Whyalla build start of March 2014) could/might morph into a wireless or FTTN solution. I really want to be positive but a lot uncertainty still remains and I think that the Liberals are still bent on “destroying” Labor’s NBN vision in the disguise of “quicker and cheaper for same but obscure outcome”

I’m not even on the horizon for rollout yet. Our area is FAR too big and spread out, but with a large number of people, for FTTN to work properly. It would result in some of us being able to achieve ADSL2 speeds, which would certainly be an improvement, while some of us would get fairly much nothing, doue to the poor state of the copper down here.

But while FTTN WOULD deliver at least some improvement…..WHEN?? That’s the major theme around my WHOLE disagreement with the Coalition plan; we don’t know WHEN. I KNOW I will get FTTP in the next 10 years. Guaranteed. I DON’T know when or even IF I’ll get FTTN. Could I get it in 5? Conceivably, but I have ZERO information that tells me so. And I’m sorry, but I’m NOT going to vote on a policy that gives promises with no timeline other than “faster than the NBN.” Faster how? Faster as in, SOME people will get FTTN before they would get FTTP? Or faster as in EVERYONE will get FTTN before FTTP? Or faster as in if they’d started FTTN when they’d started FTTP?

THIS is what is completely disingenuous in the Coalition policy- there IS no detail. It is ALL based on “what industry tells us.” The industry, being mainly Telstra (ANOTHER problem of FTTN) and with no guarantee at how long these “contract re-negotiations” will take. WHY would you spend 2-4 years renegotiating all these contracts, to start delivering a service which WILL need upgrading in the next 10 years??

I know I’m preaching to the converted here, but this article on SMH just annoys me. The media report it as “they’ve changed their stance”…..no they haven’t. Turnbull’s been saying this for 9 months, it’s just taken him this long to get it into Tony’s thick skull they HAVE to do this, rather than “destroy the NBN,” because that is politically damaging to them. Nothing has changed.

Until I see some details such as percentages covered by FTTN, basic costings for FTTN areas and timeframes for deployment, I’m not going to believe the Coalition truly are interested in following ANY form of mandate on broadband. They keep saying they can’t cost things because they don’t have any information on the rollout or where it will be once they’re in power….so then, if they CAN’T find this information (which I find ridiculous in itself seeing as it is made public by NBNCo.) HOW can they base a policy around a LACK of information??

The coalition will release their ‘details’ a week before the next election. This is politics (just like poker..)
Sad but true.

I think the majority of ‘contracts’ will be honoured. And while they continue with the roll out they will ‘investigate’ it just like they did MYKI here in Vic. And once they’ve done investigating they’ll let everyone know their position and what they will do from then (expect about 12months after the election if god help us they win)

The real worry would be if the economy took a turn before the election and the ‘slash and burn’ mantra became popular with the electorate. THEN WE ARE SCREWED!

But in saying that, if that does happen (a downturn) we are more likely to be concerned with picks and shovels than NBN…..

That means what it says. NBNco can sign as many contracts as they want, the Coalition will renegotiate all those contracts to build FTTN instead.

FTTN will be much easier and faster to build, the contractors will get their money faster with less contracting risk (because the most difficult work to manage is the last mile trenching and building individual lead-in conduits to every premise).

It’s a win-win proposition in unwinding Labor’s mess for taxpayers and contractors as well.

Also, Abbott just reaffirmed a few hours ago at Melbourne Liberal conference that the Coalition will scrap wasteful FTTP.

What evidence do you have that stopping Labor’s NBN and re-designing it as FTTN, renegotiating the deal with Telstra, renegotiating contracts with suppliers and construction companies, etc will result in a faster, cheaper build than running the NBN to completion?

Paul Budde is an odd one. He seems to draw the NBN closer with one hand and push it away with the other.

He is right about this point though. It will cost BILLIONS for just a few years delay, which is inevitable, regardless of the power the Coalition will have, even if they control the Senate. Look how long it took to negotiate the original Telstra deal….

“(because the most difficult work to manage is the last mile trenching and building individual lead-in conduits to every premise).”

I see. So someone doesn’t want to do a bit of hard work to do it right the first time. We call this a lazy bludger attitude. The coaltion are notorious for their laziness, no reason why their broadband policy shouldn’t reflect that I guess…

“It’s a win-win proposition in unwinding Labor’s mess for taxpayers and contractors as well. ”

False. It’s not “win-win” at all. Consumers and taxpayers will both get screwed under the coalitions patchwork plan.

“Also, Abbott just reaffirmed a few hours ago at Melbourne Liberal conference that the Coalition will scrap wasteful FTTP.”

“That means what it says. NBNco can sign as many contracts as they want, the Coalition will renegotiate all those contracts to build FTTN instead.”

Um….What? I’m sorry, did I miss the part in these contracts that say Labor signed them??

See, this is what the Coalition conveniently ignore- There is LEGISLATION that protects NBNCo. as operating independently of the government. They can bleat ALL they like about re-negotiating contracts, but until the legislation changes to ALLOW the Coalition to do this…..they can yell all they like, but NBNCo. has a mandate to provide FTTH to 93% of Australians and they will continue to do so. They HAVE no plan for a change of government, they have said so themselves. And will the legislation be changeable? Well, that is entirely dependent on the senate numbers. As it stands, the Greens and independents will NOT allow those legislation changes through. That means, as a MINIMUM the Coalition have to wait until July 2014 to change NBNCo.’s ultimate direction….and THAT is assuming the Senate ends up in Coalition hands, which is FAR from guaranteed.

For example, The Companies Bill, FORCES NBNCo. and ANY subsidiary therein to be wholesale ONLY- NOT possible under FTTN, because there is not layer 2 technology currently available because of the LACK of ability to use such technology as ULL on half fibre/half copper systems. So the Coalition can PLAN all they want. But NOTHING can happen until they change the legislation. And AGAIN, this may or may not be feasible. Governments have been blocked before, even going so far on BUDGETS for goodness sake. What do you think parties are going to feel about blocking changes to a bill which essentially ruins the NBN, when they agree with it??

“FTTN will be much easier and faster to build, the contractors will get their money faster with less contracting risk”

Sources? Evidence? NOT from overseas. HERE. IN THIS COUNTRY. Developments? Nope, their mainly FTTH or copper. Telstra? That’s RETAIL/WHOLESALE bundled, not possible under NBNCo.’s current legislated mandate. Show me your evidence?

“It’s a win-win proposition in unwinding Labor’s mess for taxpayers and contractors as well.”

That’s if you chose to believe the UNCOSTED policy of FTTN will be LESS than FTTH. AND that FTTN WON’T need upgrading in 10 years time, which, all industry sources say it will.

“There is LEGISLATION that protects NBNCo. as operating independently of the government.”

When Abbott takes power, certain key members of Coalition Cabinet with relevant portfolios (Turnbull, Hockey, Abetts) will be the 100% shareholders of NBNco.

They will rip up Labor’s old Statement of Shareholder Ministers’ Expectations and write a joint letter to NBN CEO directing him or her to immediately halt further new contracts and start renegotiating existing contracts to build FTTN instead. Easy done.

The various NBN legislation do not constrain re-engineering the network at all.

They will rip up Labor’s old Statement of Shareholder Ministers’ Expectations and write a joint letter to NBN CEO directing him or her to immediately halt further new contracts and start renegotiating existing contracts to build FTTN instead. Easy done.

EASY DONE!!!!!!!!!!
And how long (in years) is this going to take pray tell?? Just like when Hockey said on Sunrise yesterday that the carbon tax will be repelled in one month (4 weeks) after a Coalition government takes office. And that’s what he said it’s all on tape for all to see. That’s introducing legislation, getting it passed in both houses all in 4 weeks. He must think we are all stupid or something. We shall see won’t we, it ain’t going to be that pissy easy m8.

Tony Abbott is going to have a tough, tough tough time getting all his promises honoured/passed and getting a healthy surplus budget all in one hit.
What is your expectation/timeline of a FTTP to FTTN conversion???? Again in “rough years” starting from delay to actual build recommencement to completion date for 100% of the Australian population.

BTW I’m not expecting you to answer this, simply because even the Coalition DON’T KNOW let alone mere mortals like you and me.

You must be laughing coz your town falls in the first half of NBNco’s 3 year rollout plan, right?

Lucky you…. let’s face it, after factoring in the inevitable missed deadlines and contract nego’s once the Libs get in, everyone else outside the first 30-40% densest pop’n centres will sensibly be reconsigned to ADSL2+ or fixed wireless.

“You must be laughing coz your town falls in the first half of NBNco’s 3 year rollout plan, right” “Lucky you”

Nope. This question/statement however is quite revealing since you are implying getting the NBN before others is a good thing. I wonder why (not really)

“once the Libs get in, everyone else outside the first 30-40% densest pop’n centres will sensibly be reconsigned to ADSL2+ or fixed wireless.”

This is also quite revealing because you endorse “the Libs” half arsing their already half arsed patchwork plan… btw nothing you are advocating is “sensible” hence the LOLS. Please continue embarrassing yourself for my general amusement.

“Lucky you…. let’s face it, after factoring in the inevitable missed deadlines and contract nego’s once the Libs get in, everyone else outside the first 30-40% densest pop’n centres will sensibly be reconsigned to ADSL2+ or fixed wireless.”

Thankyou for confirming your utter contempt for all those Australians outside cities.

We don’t like talking to hideously selfish people. It is an exercise in futility. And I have better things to do. Such as lick my bathroom clean with my tongue.

The ACCC implemented some arbitrary and dramatic changes in methodology for valuing Telstra’s CAN and lEN assets. The CAN went from $16bln in the ACCC’s previous valuation 3 years before to $7bln. As a result, final determination of wholesale access charges dropped dramatically. (Also, there’s no guarantee they won’t drop further at the next review in a few years’ time.)

As Telstra pointed out in their discussion paper submission, the total value derived from CAN is the sum of wholesale charges received up until disconnection plus migration payments.

Because the assessed wholesale rates came out much worse than what they expected when the deal with NBNco was negotiated, it will be in their financial interests to accelerate the timing of the migration payments to offset the poor outcomes of the fixed services review.

In the same way that falling wholesale yields on the CAN act as a disincentive on major upgrades to the fixed network, they also incentivise Telstra to divest its wholesale operations faster in the context of the NBNco deal. You want to reduce your exposure to something that’s quickly dropping in value.

For Telstra, switching from FTTH to FTTN will be 100% in their interests.

‘They will rip up Labor’s old Statement of Shareholder Ministers’ Expectations and write a joint letter to NBN CEO directing him or her to immediately halt further new contracts and start renegotiating existing contracts to build FTTN instead. Easy done.’

@GenoFTW

Once again, good to see you have no understanding of what NBNCo. is. As part of LEGISLATION that CANNOT be changed without support from the Senate, NBNCo. is REQUIRED to build a wholesale only OPEN ACCESS network. That is NOT possible on FTTN. So Turnbull and Abbott can bitch and moan all they like, but without Senate support, they CANNOT change NBNCo.’s mandate.

Why do you think we’re talking about Telstra and the valuation of their copper network?? Only Telstra can currently build the FTTN. And even if they DID change the mandate in July 2014, it would take several years to change the Telstra, Optus, ACCC and contractor contracts. ALL the while NOTHING is happening but money is still bring spent….

Yes, that sounds like a MUCH better idea. Please, do continue to support that, seeing as it falls into your completely and utterly selfish world view.

FTTN will be much easier and faster to build, the contractors will get their money faster with less contracting risk (because the most difficult work to manage is the last mile trenching and building individual lead-in conduits to every premise).

Wait wait wait… You think we will have the FTTN in a timeframe before NBNCo would finish the FTTP network?

Not even Malcom Turnbull believes this. Take very careful notice of the words he uses when he talks about it.

This is not an exact quote; but the important words are his.
“In terms of time to build, our network will be faster”

He never says our NBN will be finished before the NBN is completed. Never once. He says it will be faster to build, and he’d be right if that was the NBN being built right now. But it isn’t. He will have to renegotiate *everything*. Retender *everything*. people here talk about “uncertainty” in the building industry in the same breath as talking about cancelling multi billion dollar construction contracts and retendering them!

If you can’t comprehend any of this, then we are truly are in Sparta now.

And I haven’t even gotten to how much of a technological fail FTTC is!

Well, FTTC is a damn sight better than FTTN, as least there is only the feeder line that is copper. I am talking fibre to the curb, not what the UK call FTTC, fibre to the cabinet, which is fibre to the node.

“Wait wait wait… You think we will have the FTTN in a timeframe before NBNCo would finish the FTTP network?”

You gotta love how NBN supporters talk about the fictional 2021 completion date set out in the Corporate Plan as if it was some absolute fixed point in time ordained in heaven and completely ignore all the bungles that have happened since that flimsy Plan was released.

Oh, btw, nobody in their right mind would think of building 90% FTTN (or 90% FTTP, except some foreign office career bureaucrat named K Rudd). The cost benefit for 30%-40% FTTN stacks up very well and is much easier and faster to build.

“He will have to renegotiate *everything*. Retender *everything*.”

Rofl. In the same way NBNco scrapped its tender process and arrangements for greenfields and brownfields multiple times?

“And I haven’t even gotten to how much of a technological fail FTTC is!”

@genoFTW You still haven’t answered my post or are you just TOO GUTLESS??

What is your expectation/timeline of a FTTP to FTTN conversion???? Again in “rough years” starting from delay to actual build recommencement to completion date for 100% of the Australian population.

You don’t REALLY NOW DO YOU?? Thought so. You should apply to be Tony Abbott’s campaign/policy speech writer as you would fit in perfectly with his morals/way of thinking. And I promise never ever to call you m8 again. True Australian m8’s don’t treat their fellow citizens with an attitude like yours. I really pity you, something must have happened to you very badly that gives you this attitude towards others not so privileged.

“Oh, btw, nobody in their right mind would think of building 90% FTTN (or 90% FTTP, except some foreign office career bureaucrat named K Rudd). The cost benefit for 30%-40% FTTN stacks up very well and is much easier and faster to build.”

BTW if you don’t mind saying what is your type of internet connection?? The sync connection in mbits and your throughput speed??
Mine is ADSL2+ and my sync connection is 14-15mbits and throughput speeds is about 1.5 to 1.6 Megabytes per second. And I consider myself one of the “lucky ones” with a fairly consistent connection at this moment in time.

Now my connection could change/deteriorate anytime (used to get about 16mbit sync connection) in the future as the copper degrades and there would be nothing I could do about it. Like when Tony Abbott says “hey!! shit happens” I’m just trying to establish if your connection is a typical ADSL2+ one (average below 10mbits per second in Australia) or if you are already on FTTP ( new estate private Telco, Telstra etc) HFC or faster then most ADSL2+ (close to the exchange as in cable length, getting 20mbit+)

genoFTW, I admire you allegiance to the Liberal Party but dont you think you are blinded by it, are you saying that the current NBN comm system of FTTH is inferior and non cost effective comparied to FTTN.
I’ll bring your attention to an article posted here on Delimiter dated April 30th 2012. The ex CTO of BT (British Telecom)

Peter Cochrane stated that FTTN IS A HUGE MISTAKE .

He further stated that (fibre to the node-style broadband is

“one of the biggest mistakes humanity has made”, imposing huge bandwidth and unreliability problems on those who implement it).

Mr Cochrane CV is very impressive besides his PhD , I hope he doesnt mind me posting it here

Now to my position – lest you think me some impractical academic. In my BT life I was employed as:

1) A digger of trenches

2) An installer of poles, cables, telephones PBXs, exchanges

3) A maintainer of PBXs, switches, repeater and radio stations

4) A network designer and planner

5) A research engineer

6) A software writer

7) A designer of test equipment

8) Systems and networks designer

9) Head of Group a then Head of Section and then Head of Division for Transmission Systems

10) Head of Research and then CTO

And since leaving BT life and experience has been even faster and even broader…

Dear genoFTW if you disagree with Mr Cochrane would you be so kind to post your CV here so we can compare your background in IT to helpl clarify this argument

That does not mean it is acceptable to build something just because it’s “easier and faster” Hint: it’s not. At this stage it doesn’t matter how fast you think you can build a FttN patchwork it is still redundant.

Well it could finish on time or it could finish late or it could finish early.

There was a 12month (or so) delay because of negotiating a deal with Telstra – Fact
Re-negotiation takes time – Fact
Delays occur during Re-Negotiation – Fact
The coalition wants to Re-Negotiate contracts – Fact
Therefore there will be delays under a coalition policy – Fact
The Liberal government ‘looked into’ MYKI (Vic) – Fact
This investigation took 12 months – Fact
The Liberal governement (Vic) couldn’t do anything till they had undertaken this investigation – Fact
Investigations cause delays – Fact
FTTn is cheaper – Debatable (Apples and Oranges)
FTTn is quicker to roll out – If it was done from the word go – Likely
But FTTH is already underway – Fact
HFC will suffice in some areas – False
HFC is perfect for TV, Lots of Down, not much Up – Fact
HFC is already rolled out to some suburbs – Fact
But it misses every second street and every second house in alot of those suburbs – Fact
FTTn is upgradeable to FTTh – Fact – BUT AT SIGNIFICANT COST AND WASTE – Fact
FTTn will use existing copper – Fact
This copper won’t need to be replaced – False
Alot of this copper will need to be upgraded – Fact
It will take time to figure out what area’s need to be upgraded – Fact
This will cause delays – Fact
FTTh will negate the need for those delays – Fact

‘The cost benefit for 30%-40% FTTN stacks up’ – Fact – If it was implemented in 2001 – Fact
It is 2012 – Fact
The coalition was in power in 2001 – Fact
The coalition has a plan – False – The coalition has no plan – fact

The coalition will repeal the carbon tax – False
The coalition will try and repeal the carbon tax – Fact
The coalition wont have a carbon tax – False
The coalition will use taxpayers money to pay polluters to clean up – Fact
The coalition doesn’t support and ETS – False
The coalition doesn’t lie – False

The coalition thinks ahead – False
The coalition is worried about money in the bank – Fact
The coalition had money in the bank and then gave it back to the tax payer in form of tax cuts – Fact
The coalition invested in infrastrucure – False
Private enterprise invested in infrastructure – False
Telstra invested in broadband – Fact
Down the same streets as Optus – Fact

FTTn will have a bottleneck effect on data – Fact
FTTn will have to be upgraded to FTTh – Fact
The world doesn’t need those speeds – False
Australia doesn’t need those speeds – Fact
In 10 years Australia will need those speeds – Fact

With FTTh Australia will be a world leader – Almost
Australia is a two speed economy – Fact
FTTh will alleviate this – Fact

Wireless will replace the need for fibre – Fact
Wireless will replace the need for fibre in the next 20 years – False
Wireless runs off fibre – Fact
Your home WiFi will run off fibre – Fact

WiFi will run faster under FTTh – Fact
WiFi will suffice under FTTn – Fact
WiFi will suffice under FTTn in 10 years time – False

FTTh will be rolled out in 10 years to 93% of the Australian population – Fact

And to summarise:

FTTn is cheaper – It would have been cheaper
FTTn is cheaper Today – No

FTTn will meet our needs – It would have met our needs
FTTn will meet our needs into the future – No

Little bit less insulting and a little bit more fact in arguments wouldn’t go astray.

It seems it’s a very passionate debate (rightly so) but we need to keep the ‘facts’ clear.

Opinions are useless, assumptions more so.

If FTTh wasn’t in full swing, FTTn might have been a consideration, a decade ago.

Warning: Assumption Below…. :

12 Month to the election. Before 30th Nov 2013 (FACT).
12 more months for review (if Labor booted out) MYKI vic. took about that long and it was only state wide.
12 more months of negotiations of contracts, delays in transition (yes it is in Telstra’s (and shareholders) interests) We aren’t just ‘dumping’ something. We still need to go ahead with something….

Then we continue with FTTn, a technology that has a shorter shelf life, more competitors (equalling less revenue for NBN, therefore will take longer to pay loans, therefore Australian tax payers pay more interest on them), and is arguably outdated.

All because a political party has to live up to, some of the promises/policy it suggested before an election where they were in a position where there job is to ‘oppose’.

I really don’t think the coalition will scale back that much of the NBN (plans) once elected, as it wouldn’t be in their best interest. Short of a full scale world wide depression)

They are doing what they are doing and saying what they are saying TO GET ELECTED.

To be clear I was stating an opinion, and totally agree, we have no clue as to what the coalition will do.

And I hope others see this.

Policy details usually comes out about a week before the election don’t they …?? :-S

There is a high chance (assuming..) that the ball will be rolling enough that they will have to continue alot of it. But it totally depends on:

1)What the people want (read, what the people believe to be true)
2)How easy it is to change policy (money/time/contracts)
3)What new facts present themselves in the future (18-24months?)
4)How Pally Pally they are with companies that have vested intrests

So Mike is right in asking; “Do (we) VOTE for FACT (Labour) or FICTION (Liberal)?”

I’ll try and make this simple not necessasy for you Anthony but for others who maybe contemplating voting for the Liberals simply because of what they may or my not do in the future regarding the NBN.

You have 2 guys standing in front of you and both of them are offering you a $100 bill, you can only accept one $100 bill.
The Labor guy has the money in his hand and is offering it to you. The other guy a Liberal is offering you a $100 bill as well but he hasn’t got it in his hand, he says I will give it to you tomorrow or a weeks time or in 12 months time, which one would you accept.

Thats the choice we have regarding the NBN, why accept fiction when you already have fact.

It would have been easier for me Noddy but I wanted to get peoples attention, well it did work to a certain degree, I adleast got your attention but I think Im just preaching to the converted.

(An NBN in the hand is worth more than a half arsed one with no bush.)I think this would be classified more as a proverb than a paraphrase ?

I dont know why people label you with a particular ideology simply because you support the NBN, I dont give a rat ring about party politics I just want the NBN as it is. I find the coalitions stance and continued lies regarding the NBN as disturbing as well as some radio anouncers and news papers outlets, was it always this bad?

“I dont know why people label you with a particular ideology simply because you support the NBN, I dont give a rat ring about party politics I just want the NBN as it is. I find the coalitions stance and continued lies regarding the NBN as disturbing as well as some radio anouncers and news papers outlets, was it always this bad?”

Here here! Not only do I not give a rat ring or rat rectum I also don’t give 2 figs or 3 ducks testicles about party politics. The Coalition’s stance about MANY things lately seems to be ONLY lies….sorry, untruths (gotta watch to libel…).

I think it is worse than usual. But the media tells us it isn’t, so it’s obviously not then……

I don’t mind private or government owned/built, horses for courses. Let private enterprise do it, but if/when they won’t deliver, the gov needs to step in to help the people, imo, as in the case of the Australia wide NBN.

However there are those who truly believe (regardless of the fact they send their kids to gov schools, drive on gov built roads etc) that the NBN is a socialist plot and that being government built the NBN is ergo evil, wrong or whatever…WTF?

Seriously, pre-GFC, we saw the banks (especially those abroad), basking in their own selfish excesses and if Governments considered stepping in to stop the greed at the top end of town, to help the average Joes like us, the banks told the govs to go and get ******, mind your own business and leave us be (and interestingly due to their immovable brainwashed ideologies, a lot of the average Joe’s actually agreed with the banks).

Then the GFC set in and the same banks who told the govs to go **** themselves, now went on hand and knee/cap in hand, begging for assistance (grubs) to save them from going to the wall. And the govs mostly did.

Now here we are with the rest of the world (not so much us) still in financial turmoil, the banks having begged governments to save them (after telling having told them to **** off) and what do they do…

If the truth was in the middle it would have been squeezed out long ago.

(I think Labor supporter is the new communist or red. There must be something intrinsicly evil about want something for the public good other than what puts more money in your own pocket.)

And always thought I had a pleasent disposition, now I find out I’m an evil red communist, mmmmm do they come in any other colours ?

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