186 comments:

The guy was a Hulk. Tall and wide. He flung that shop owner around like he was nothing. And I bet he did that all the time. Used his size to get his way. Which might explain his fearlessness when dealing with a weak looking cop. Plus the fact that he was high as a kite.

Tell us some of those stories Garage. You mean to say that someone who is 6'4 and 300 pounds and is remembered by friends as a "gentle giant" shouldn't be viewed as a giant person? If it were a 6'4 300 pound cracker the threat would still be the same.

Yeah Garage, I guess all those negroes heard all those giant negro scare stories too. He wasn't like that scary black, he was a "gentle" giant.Only, if his family and friends all call him a giant, can we be o the same page that he is perceived to be gigantic?

From the available grand jury information, it is obvious that the DA didn't want an indictment. His questioning of Wilson sounded like that of a defense attorney -- long on excuses and explanations for Wilson's behavior, short on digging into the inconsistencies in Wilson's testimony.

Were Wilson not a cop, he'd be under indictment for murder right now. That's what happens to Americans who aren't government employees, when an unarmed man is shot and witness accounts of the justification differ.

But hey, the notion that government workers are a better class of citizen than the rest of us is nothing new. What's embarrassing is how so-called conservatives defend the institution.

One thing I learned is that cops in Ferguson carry guns and shoot when they feel threatened. And that they have rules about their guns that say this is OK. I think we should spread the word in Ferguson as a public service. This knowledge is apparently not widespread. Maybe the TV stations would be willing to run public service announcements to help out. Maybe a non- profit group could write class lessons for the school teachers to use.

"When giant negroes attackI don't know if Wilson's testimony was all cynical strategy, used to amplify his innocence and play upon jurors' innate biases to exploit the loosey-goosey law that governs police use of force. I don't know if it is what he truly believed happened, or even if it happened exactly as he described. In this magical, mystical world, anything is possible.I do know this, though: the "giant negro" trope isn't just a relic buried in the New York Times' dusty archives. It's alive and well, and Michael Brown is not."

Rev is probably a devoted reader, as well.

"Were Wilson not a cop, he'd be under indictment for murder right now. That's what happens to Americans who aren't government employees, when an unarmed man is shot and witness accounts of the justification differ."

Were Wilson not a cop, he'd be under indictment for murder right now. That's what happens to Americans who aren't government employees, when an unarmed man is shot and witness accounts of the justification differ.

But hey, the notion that government workers are a better class of citizen than the rest of us is nothing new. What's embarrassing is how so-called conservatives defend the institution.

Oh he was treated better than the rest of us? He was a white cop who killed a beatific black innocent child. And the media and the whole community were ready to string him up without so much as a hint of due process.

Revenant wrote:If Mike Tyson socked me in the jaw, twice, I've have multiple broken bones and be lying on the ground bleeding from the nose and mouth.

Wilson would have us believe that his victim was superhumanly strong, but hit like a girl. Bullshit.

if Mike Tyson hit you it wouldn't guarantee you'd have broken bones and blood coming out of your mouth. Boxers get hit hundreds of times by other boxers and don't always bleed from the mouth or nose. And just because you don't have visible fractures doesn't mean the person hitting you "hits like a girl". IT wasn't JUST that he was being hit in the face. it was also that Brown was going for his gun.

To partially quote garage, "my favorite part of Wilson's account" is how it matches up with all the forensic evidence and the "real" (unchanging depending on circumstances) eyewitness accounts from black eyewitnesses who were too smart to come out publicly with their eyewitness accounts.

That kept the garage/crack morons away long enough for the truth to emerge.

No wonder the lefties are so upset.

A few of the locals didn't buy into the BS and came forward and told the truth.

This is so hard. People with emotional feelings cannot accept the truth, or at their worst they see racism when people speak the truth. People focused on the truth cannot, to a significant degree, understand the feelings of those who cannot accept the truth.

I assume the police, politicians, prosecutors and other "public" figures with inside information all know the truth is that Mr. Brown charged Wilson and the shooting was justified under the law. One can understand why family cannot accept that, and maybe why family lawyers feel need to argue otherwise, but it would be very helpful to the country and to long term race relations if other "leaders" spoke the truth. Don't hold your breath. Some will intentionally lie and others will intentionally withhold the truth. President Obama is the one person who could focus everyone on the truth, but for political (and perhaps emotional) reasons he is not going to do so.

My truth:

1. It is horrible any time an 18 year old man is killed by police and I feel terrible for the parents and everyone who loved Mr. Brown that he initiated a confrontation with a police office that resulted in his death.

2. Mr. Brown, after robbing the convenience store, initiated a physical confrontation with the officer and then charged him, putting the office in a position where he was justified in using deadly force.

3. The entire story is horrible for African Americans. It starts with an 18 year old black guy acting like a thug and now continues with black guys looting, stealing, burning a city and doing other bad things. The story from start to finish casts blacks in a bad light, highlighted by race hustlers like Sharpton and race manipulators like President Obama and Holder (and many other democrats).

Kansas City: "3. The entire story is horrible for African Americans. It starts with an 18 year old black guy acting like a thug and now continues with black guys looting, stealing, burning a city and doing other bad things."

Let's not ignore the white commies who showed up to "help" as well.

Between the commies, the moron Guy Fawkes-mask wearing perpetual adolescent anarchists, the standard african-american instigators and the gang-bangers, it was a real "victory" for the forces of the left.

I wonder how many of those businesses will reopen?

Up next, crack and garage complain that there aren't enough businesses to support the needs of the local population. And they will argue that with no sense of irony.

If this event hadn't attracted so much attention, the police and prosecutors would have quietly closed the case, based on an investigation and conclusion that the officer had not acted improperly. However, because of the local violence and the national attention, they couldn't do that. One option would have been to indict the officer and put him on trial, after which he would have been acquitted. Instead, they elected to engage an unusual, but entirely appropriate, grand jury process to determine whether there was a triable criminal case. I suppose the judgement was that it would be better to get it over in a few months than in a year or two. It seems to me that these decisions were reasonable.

What ought to happen now is that the Black majority in Ferguson should get active to elect a representative majority to the city council or whatever body runs things there. The big risk is that the radicals will elect their own. If so, fine. We all have to live with the majority choice.

HE was punched in face twice; If you look you can see clear bruise on his right side of face. Was it hard enough to break jaw? No, but cops are not going to let you punch them in the face until you do. Where, are the bruises on Michael Brown's face indicating that the officer threw a punch at him?

You're such a forensic expert.Is that what you do for a living? Or are you just talking out of your butt? Brown got off two maybe three punches that connected hard enough to stun the officer. It doesn't mean they will instantly cause blood to spew out of cuts. It may not even draw blood at all. But, There is also the matter of him going for his gun after pounding him in the face a few times.

You fail to make the biggest point, the way Wilson put English on those bullets to hit him in the chest even when he was running away. That is the part of this that you should focus on. Because cops lie every time they have had to learn little tricks like that, tricks not available to everyone. So the Uncle Toms that testified that Brown was charging the cop were in cahoots with the cops who are withholding their boomerang bullet trick.

garage mahal wrote:Less than a second? Less than a second would be Brown simply dropping the cigarillos. Come on dude it just did not go down like that. It's like Wilson lifted that from a movie.

NO one was standing at the scene with a stop watch determing literally how long it would take to pass cigars off to someone standing right next to you versus dropping them. If he handed them off to someone mid punches it would take a few seconds tops.

Revenant wrote:According to Wilson, Brown tried to grab Wilson's gun while Wilson was in his police car. Brown was shot to death 153 feet from that car.

Never mind Hulk Hogan -- apparently Brown was Mr. Fantastic. :)

No one who follows the case suggested that the officer shot Brown from the car. There were two incidents involving the gun going off. Brown got into an altercation with the cop where he leaned into the car and pounded him a few times in the face then went for his gun. The cop fired the gun once in the car hitting brown. Backed by forensics.

THEN Brown ran and the cop got out and gave chase for a short distance. Brown then stopped turned, and apparently, after taunting the officer charged him like a football player (according to eyewitness testimony). So, he didn't have to be Mr Fantastic.My question was, why was brown leaning into the car to punch the officer in the first place?

@Revenant: Wilson fired at Brown from inside his car. Brown ran, then Wilson left the car and pursued him. Wilson yelled for him to get down, and Brown turned around went ran toward him.

Essentially corroborated by the extrinsic evidence, and even some of the actual witnesses (a large number of the putative witnesses likely didn't see what they originally claimed to have seen). According to Wilson's testimony, after Brown took off, he followed at a distance, to keep him in sight, waiting for backup. He kept telling Brown to stop, and Brown ultimately did, turning around, and advancing (according to Wilson, charging) him. But, that is where the 150-160 feet came from - the distance that both of them had moved after the incident in the Tahoe.

@Revenant: Wilson fired at Brown from inside his car. Brown ran, then Wilson left the car and pursued him. Wilson yelled for him to get down, and Brown turned around went ran toward him.

Sigh.

Gabe, the prior guy lining up to suck on some police cock made the assertion that Brown was only "unarmed" because Wilson shot him before Brown could grab his gun.

If you bothered to read the testimony, you'll see that the one and *only* place where Wilson claims Brown tried to grab his gun is while Wilson was still in the car. That is what I was referring to when I observed that Brown was shot 153 feet from the car.

Yes, I'm aware that Wilson claims he ran after Brown with his gun out, apparently because he's seen too many cop films. But that has nothing to do with the supposed attempt by Brown to grab Wilson's gun.

"My favorite part of Wilson's account is that while beating Wilson, he turned around and asked his friend to take his cigarillos, so he could continue beating him unimpeded. Riiiiight."

Garage is Ezra Klein? This explains so much.

And as others have said of this comment by Garage "Vox" Klein, it's a cute argument but doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Read the darn transcript (volume 5 of the transcripts, with this incident being discussed at around page 211). In context, it's pretty clear that Wilson is indicating a frenetic, very quick series of punches, during a short pause in which Brown handed off the inconvenient little barrel (?) of Cigarillos.

... I just wasted all that typing, didn't I, Ezra? You don't care about the evidence. You only care about your preconceived narrative. Sentence first, verdict and facts never.

If you bother to read the testimony you will learn that after he was shot in the hand in the SUV he ran. After one hundred or so feet he turned and charged Wilson with his arms extended as if to tackle. It was at this point that he was shot. Apparently he continued to charge after being hit again.

According to Wilson's testimony, after Brown took off, he followed at a distance, to keep him in sight, waiting for backup. He kept telling Brown to stop, and Brown ultimately did, turning around, and advancing (according to Wilson, charging) him. But, that is where the 150-160 feet came from - the distance that both of them had moved after the incident in the Tahoe.

That 150 feet is one one of the most misleading points about the case. Yes it's true that Brown was 150 feet from the car, but it's not true that the officer was standing by the car. The insinuation was that there was no chance Brown posed a threat because he was 150 FEET AWAY from the cop! no, he ran 150 feet from the car. The cop also chased him a portion away from the car so he too was away from the car. The distance between Wilson and Brown then was not 150 feet.

No one who follows the case suggested that the officer shot Brown from the car. There were two incidents involving the gun going off. Brown got into an altercation with the cop where he leaned into the car and pounded him a few times in the face then went for his gun. The cop fired the gun once in the car hitting brown. Backed by forensics.

I think that you need to be a bit more precise. Two rounds were fired by Wilson in the vehicle, one hitting Brown in the right hand. At least Brown's right hand, and likely his upper body, were inside the Tahoe at the time that Brown was shot there (corroborated by Brown's blood on the inside of the vehicle and on Wilson's uniform).

After being shot in the hand, Brown took off, Wilson was finally able to get out of the vehicle, followed Brown, ordering him to stop, freeze, etc. Ultimately Brown appears to have turned around, and started advancing on Wilson. That was where the other 10 rounds from his magazine were discharged, ultimately ending in the fatal shots.

Brown wrote:I think that you need to be a bit more precise. Two rounds were fired by Wilson in the vehicle, one hitting Brown in the right hand. At least Brown's right hand, and likely his upper body, were inside the Tahoe at the time that Brown was shot there (corroborated by Brown's blood on the inside of the vehicle and on Wilson's uniform).

The fact that his arm was inside the vehicle corroborates that Brown was pounding him in the face and going for his gun. (That and that Wilson has contusions on his face). There isn't a very good reason I can think of as to why Brown would be leaning into Wilsons car other than to be pounding on his face with his fist and going for his gun.

(1) Wilson stopped to direct Brown and his companion to walk on the sidewalk instead of in the middle of the street. He was manifestly correct to do so, though I note in passing that had he not done so, and had the two young men been run over by a civilian driver, Wilson would be off the hook.

(2) Mike Brown physically attacked the police officer. Consequently he was headed for jail, and apparently could have surrendered but chose not to. I base this on the autopsy evidence -- if your hands are up in a surrender stance your gunshot wounds will not be on the front of your arms.

(3) Some the commentators upthread have suggested that the 6'4" Brown hit Wilson more or less like a girl. Perhaps so, but I suspect the girl in question would be someone like Ronda Rousey or Muhammad Ali's daughter Laila.

(4) Wilson really was in fear for his life. The pattern of wounds is consistent with a person who is yanking the trigger (shots are hitting low and left) and pulling the trigger as fast as he can (each successive shot is higher on the body, implying that Wilson is not taking a fraction of second to reacquire his sight picture).

(5) People can sustain fatal wounds and keep coming. In 1986 in Miami one bank robber (Michael Lee Platt) wounded two FBI agents and killed two others after sustained a "non-survivable wound" in the chest. We don't know whether Brown was still coming at Wilson after sustaining his wound in the throat, but it's certainly possible.

For those that say it's unrealistic for Brown to charge the cop, how many people do you know who lean into cop cars to punch out officers and then go for their guns? THAT person I could easily see charging a cop. Since, he already did something similar only a few seconds earlier.

"One option would have been to indict the officer and put him on trial, after which he would have been acquitted. Instead, they elected to engage an unusual, but entirely appropriate, grand jury process to determine whether there was a triable criminal case"

It would be grossly unethical for a prosecutor to charge someone with any crime without an abiding belief that the charge or charges contained in the information could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. No greater responsibility or duty for a prosecutor exists. With the existing evidence in the case as we know it, a prosecutor could face possible sanctions or disbarment for merely filing criminal charges once the paucity of evidence became known, as it inevitably would.

It is not unusual in the least to take a case of this nature to a grand jury, for exactly the reasons the State's Attorney did so.

As a 30+ year prosecutor in a major urban area, once the facts became known it was obvious to me the grand jury would return a no true bill. I had to chortle at the commentators on MSNBC last night who expressed their shock and surprise that the grand jury refused to indict Wilson on any charges at all.

It should been embarrassing to MSNBC to have such unknowledgeable and inexperienced clods serving as panelists.

After one hundred or so feet he turned and charged Wilson with his arms extended as if to tackle. It was at this point that he was shot. Apparently he continued to charge after being hit again.

Brown did what every Demonic Super Human would do after initially getting shot: run 175 feet, turn around, then charge Wilson and face a hell-fire of more bullets, gaining strength after every round that hit him.

I've become less welcome of police procedures over the years. Cops seem more intent on protecting themselves than serving society these days. Militarization is a huge problem. "Boston Strong" was more like "Bullshit Strong" when you see how overcooked the pursuit was and the entire lockdown of the city.

No-knock raids. Shooting dogs. Flash bang grenades into cribs. Police have become quite zealous in their pursuit of "justice."

Revenant and I have both shared similar views on the role of police in society, and how distorted their authority and self-protectionism has become.

However, this case just doesn't add up. I don't think Wilson acted improperly. The testimony and evidence just doesn't paint the picture of a racist cop hell-bent on gunning down a Gentle Giant.

The worse case is the mentally-ill man who stole a soda from the convenience store who was gunned down on a sidewalk.

Yes, he had a knife. And yes, he moved toward the officers.

However, police need to do a better job of threat assessment, and need alternative methods of dealing with these types of casing than just unloading their weapons (see also, Cleveland boy, 12 with an airsoft rifle.)

It would really help Rev and Garage if you were pushing a story based on events and not on meme's that further your agenda.When it was Trayvon Martin I said at the time IF the fact are exactly as stated based on the initial reporting I had heard then Zimmerman was probably guilty. But I wanted to hear more before passing judgement. It soon became clear that those pushing the story didn't particularly care whether the events they were pushing actually happened the way they said. Yet, I'm supposed to be for lynching somebody because of their made up story?

Same thing with this story. The first I heard I said, IF the events are exactly as those pushing the story say the cops is probably guilty. But again, that's not exactly how it happened.And yet again we have the same sorry folks pushing their meme and getting outraged when events dont' back up their fabricated stories.

I have no need to exonerate all cops. But neither do I have a need to make every white cop who shoots a black kid into a genocidal racist.I'm not carrying your water propagandists.The forensics dont' back up your story. Mike Brown only minutes before strong armed a shop owner. And apparently reached into a cop car to beat the shit out of a cop who went into arrest him. He was no gentle giant. I can't unknow those facts simply because you want to lynch a white cop in the media.

Revenant: " If Wilson had been anybody buy a cop he'd be under indictment right now, and everyone here knows it."

That's absurd on it's face.

If Wilson had been anybody other than a cop we would not be dealing with any of these circumstances, at all.

Wilson wouldn't have received a radio call describing suspect(s) in the strong arm robbery of the store, he wouldn't have moved his vehicle perpendicular to the road to block the suspects, etc etc etc.

I guess it's simply to much to ask to deal with the facts (which we have now) at hand.

However, police need to do a better job of threat assessment, and need alternative methods of dealing with these types of casing than just unloading their weapons (see also, Cleveland boy, 12 with an airsoft rifle.)

peope have died when cops used stun guns, or pulled someone down to the ground with a choke hold. And cops have died when unarmed men got hold of guns or when for example they went to deal with a domestic disturbance call and the husband pushes a cop into a glass table and he gets killed when his arteries are punctured. There is no perfect way to disarm suspects. Even the more perfect ways are still problematic.

garage: "Brown did what every Demonic Super Human would do after initially getting shot: run 175 feet, turn around, then charge Wilson and face a hell-fire of more bullets, gaining strength after every round that hit him."

See, this is what happens when garage ceases to cut and paste and just treks out on his own.

Wilbur: "It would be grossly unethical for a prosecutor to charge someone with any crime without an abiding belief that the charge or charges contained in the information could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt."

"I think police should be held to the same standards they hold us to. If Wilson had been anybody buy a cop he'd be under indictment right now, and everyone here knows it."

You could be correct, Revenant. Wilson's testimony made it clear that he was unwilling to simply allow Brown to get away, becausea) his training is to confront threats, not avoid them, andb) he wanted to keep Brown in sight, because if he got out of sight in that neighborhood, he would become a much greater threat to the officers who would eventually have to try to track him down.

Those are valid tactical considerations, in my opinion. But a private citizen making the same claims, without having taken the same oath, could be seen as taking too much upon himself.

IF unarmed means you are sitting on the ground with your hands up then of course a cop is not justified in shooting you. But if unarmed means you are barreling towards a cop when he told you to stop after first punching him in the face and trying to steal his gun that is quite another thing. A cop doesn't have to let the unarmed guy charging him tackle him simply because he has a gun and the guy is unarmed.

Jupiter wrote:You could be correct, Revenant. Wilson's testimony made it clear that he was unwilling to simply allow Brown to get away, becausea) his training is to confront threats, not avoid them, andb) he wanted to keep Brown in sight, because if he got out of sight in that neighborhood, he would become a much greater threat to the officers who would eventually have to try to track him down.

Plus, at the time the incident escalated it wasn't about Brown Jaywalking or even stealing cigarillos. It was about a suspect who reached into a cop car and assaulted an officer then tried stealing his gun. who was then shot in the hand. No officer is simply going to let that person walk away because he doesn't want to have to deal with conflicts.

That doesn't mean hes going to shoot the guy. but it does mean he's going to try to arrest the guy. Problem for Brown is that he was dumb enough to charge the cop because he didnt' want to be arrested.

There seem to be two thoughts here.1. Robbery suspect and j-walker,Brown attempted to steal officer Wilsons service gun, and hit officer Wilson several times while officer Wilson was in his patrol vehicle. Officer Wilson's weapon discharged twice during this altercation,one round hitting Brown in the hand. Brown ran away, Officer Wilson in pursiut, ordering the suspect to stop. The suspect did stop and turn and ran (the word 'charged' is racist, I learned today) towards Officer Wilson. Brown refused to follow the officers orders, continued to advanced. Officer Wilson then had no other options, a man that had already assaulted the officer was approaching and the officer was forced to defend himself, fatally shooting the criminal suspect.2. Something different happened. There are several different eye witness accounts, none of them supporting the others, and Zero forensic evidence to support any narrative except the narrative given by Officer Wilson.

Officer Wilson should have just waited to see what Brown would do, just let him walk up to him and walk all over him and may be really kill him in the end. But then where would the race-baiters go? They need their Browns to behave like the fucking irresponsible thug he was and get killed in the process. The race-baiters don't reflect on the behavior of their own because that would not serve their purpose.

Blogger Birches said..."There is a certain amount of implausibility of asking a friend to hold on to your cigarillos, so you can continue to beat on a cop.

About as much implausibility as a group of women and men deciding that their social life is more important than taking a friend who was just raped to the hospital.

Some are inclined to believe one and deny the other. Why?"

My own view is that Brown thought he was being arrested for stealing the Cigarillos and wanted to get rid of the evidence. That strikes me as entirely plausible. It appears he was successful.

The tale from Rolling Stone, on the other hand, requires us to believe that the author knows who these "friends" are, and also "Drew", the frat boy who lured poor Jackie into a three-hour gang rape. But he is too polite to reveal their names, and too lazy to interview them.

I thought you might still be basking in the afterglow of jacking off non-stop watching those big government riot cops in uniform on Fox. That has to be the ultimate for you, am I right? White cops escaping any accountability for pumping a black kid full of holes. Poor black neighborhoods burning. Riot cops with brand new uniforms and weaponry. It's a great time to be alive for an unemployed law school dropout like yourself.

Says the former Sconnie who met Althouse in Madison, but wouldn't meet me, I think, because you thought I might drink you under the table? Anyways, good projection here tonight. Great takes my guys. You have President-Mom-Jeans and the KKK firmly on your side. Once again.

Some people are hell-bent on winning The Darwin Prize. Micheal Brown got his with exceptional merit. Punching a uniformed on duty cop in the face while trying to grab his gun shows extreme effort and then after all of that to charge at the cop head down like a ragging bull is truly impressive. The man truly deserved what he got for his efforts.

When you are 18, 6-4, 280 lb and capable of closing to clinch another person, you are not unarmed. Your body is potentially a lethal weapon.

This is why women need to be carry and be willing to use handguns. Even a normal sized fit man is no match for someone in the top 5% (or higher) of body size.

And I would hope that Wilson had his gun in hand. Allowing Brown to turn and rush him from under 30feet would have been foolish and potentially fatal.

I too distrust cops, and I resent the way in which (primarily due to the War on Drugs) they have gone beyond what the constitution intended, and I fear the militarization of LEOs, but they aren't always wrong.

As in the Trayvon Martin case, I was suspicious of how perfectly this was being fit into the narrative. I remember only too well how often the news people get it wrong particularly when it can be neatly slotted into their world view. And, once they have bit in their teeth there is no stopping them.

This whole episode is a calamity. No earthly reason for Mr. Brown to be dead other than his own actions, and no reason at all for Ferguson to be burning. A president with any cojones could have minimized the aftermath of the verdict, but the gutless wonder on Pennsylvania cannot divorce himself from the world view he adopted not from the experience of his life story but as a modus operandi.

The little people be damned, Obama wants to bend the arc of history. I think this is more apt to end as one of those predictable tree cutting events on America's Funniest Home Videos. He's bent that tree down and tied it off, and now he's sawing on the wrong half. The only question is how far he'll be launched when history reasserts itself.

A president with any cojones could have minimized the aftermath of the verdict, but the gutless wonder on Pennsylvania cannot divorce himself from the world view he adopted not from the experience of his life story but as a modus operandi.

A simpler and more plausible explanation is that that POTUS wants Ferguson riots and so offers nothing but apologies for rage.

#Occam's Razor

Oh and anagrammatically, #BlackEvilsMatter too, though I could name two, three, four (maybe five) beloved commenters here who don't think they do.

Dorian Johnson:while the officer is grabbing hold of Big Mike he kind of lose his grip around his neck. That's how I knew he had a good grip.he never fully let Big Mike go he now has a grasp on his shirt. So now Mike is able to turn different angles while he is trying to pull away.At a point he turned. Now we are face to face and he puts his hands like GRAB THESE BRO.AND IN SHOCK MY HANDS OPEN TO WHERE HE COULD PUT THE RILLOS IN MY HAND BUT IM STULL STANDING IN THE SAME SPOT"So... Apparently the cop is telling the truth and it's not so implausible after all. All sides agree this happened. so, garage you might want to tell MSNBC to go back to the drawing board and come up with some new memes.

Don't forget what was found on Michael Brown's Instagram account: Photos of him flashing gang signs, and saying things like "my hands my ammunition" and "I'm out here to claim what's mine's" and "I don't give a f*ck".

Gabriel said...@Revenant: Wilson fired at Brown from inside his car. Brown ran, then Wilson left the car and pursued him. Wilson yelled for him to get down, and Brown turned around went ran toward him.

No Mr. Fantastic powers necessary.

Why are you not even bothering to get the minimal set of facts? This is disappointing from you.

In close confinement, Brown's force is limited by the momentum he can generate over a short distance. He is also presumably untrained, therefore the acceleration vector of his fist is likely to be suboptimal for collapsing a skull or fracturing a neck. He may also have had no intent to cause mortal damage, but was motivated by entitled arrogance (witnessed by his juvenile defiance), that affected his mental focus and directed force.

We saw how violent Brown was just minutes before, after he stole the cigars and was out he went back into the store to rough up an employee. He was obviously feeling it. If all he wanted was the cigars, he would have just left with the cigars. I notice that the Vox piece carefully avoids that bit of evidence while deeming this fact and that incredible.

He may have been focused on grabbing the gun, and was only punching Wilson's face to force him to move his hands up to protect his face and therefore allow Brown to snatch the gun. And yes, leaning into a car you're not going to be able to muster optimum force for a knockout blow.

But both Revenant and Garage are bone-ass stupid, so they can't grasp that.

Jason - Brown's grab for Wilson's gun appears to have been in response to Wilson drawing it (in self defense, as he was, apparently, at the time, being beaten by Brown). I would suggest that the way that Brown was trying to grab the firearm strongly suggests that it was essentially to negate the threat of the weapon. He appeared to have used his superior strength to push the gun away from aiming at him, and instead pointing at Wilson's pelvis or hip. Which might have almost been self-defense, except that he was not legally privileged to use deadly force (Wilson being a LEO and having used deadly force first) AND his alleged attempt to get his finger into the trigger guard.

hanks for proving my point that tactical considerations are too much for your pea sized brain.

Okay. You didn't tell us the distance a wounded Brown was ultimately felled at though. I've heard 100 feet before Demonic Negro turned around and started charging, and 175 feet. What do you know of this case, what can you tell us, and why are you responding with jack shit for an answer?

Garage is mostly a ruse but I'm surprised to see revenant sacrifice his integrity on this hill.

Haha. Okay ya big baby. Revenant has nothing to do with me. We are miles apart on key issues. You are the real pussy. You always want someone to hold you. You are a ridiculously stupid person. Revenant isn't.

Chris Hayes did a full interview with Dorian Johmson tonight regurgitating his GJ testimony, never once questioning his statements and never once asking hey ain't you the dipshit that said Wilson shot Browning the back with his arms raised? Between those two and Johnson's jive ass lawyer, we had some comedy gold working.

"Okay. You didn't tell us the distance a wounded Brown was ultimately felled at though. I've heard 100 feet before Demonic Negro turned around and started charging, and 175 feet. What do you know of this case, what can you tell us, and why are you responding with jack shit for an answer?"175 feet from what? the car or the officer? Since the officer got out to pursue he too was some distance from the car. The 175 feet therefore is irrelevant since it says nothing about where the two were in relation to each other.

Chris Hayes did a full interview with Dorian Johmson tonight regurgitating his GJ testimony, never once questioning his statements and never once asking hey ain't you the dipshit that said Wilson shot Browning the back with his arms raised? Between those two and Johnson's jive ass lawyer, we had some comedy gold working.

I thought that version got laughed off the stage after the first week. Yet the raised hands remain the pathetic symbol of the Mike Brown Movement.

Is there one shred of physical evidence supporting the "raised hands shot in the back" version?

"I disagree. Garage is mostly a ruse but I'm surprised to see revenant sacrifice his integrity on this hill."I'm not. Rev is a lot smarter than garage, and on many things I'd even agree with him. But he has what appears to be a visceral animus against cops. Maybe it's his libertarian streak or maybe he had some run ins that left a bad taste in his mouth. But if the discussion is about an incident involving a cop shooting ai pretty much know where he's going to wind up.

The term unarmed applies to bilateral amputees and not to those who perpetrate strong arm robberies.....You've got to give Brown the benefit of every doubt and Wilson the weight of every suspicion in order to convict Wilson. That's not the way our justice system works.....Those who defend Brown say that it would be irrational for him to reach into a police car to try to grab the officer's gun. So it would. It would also be irrational for a police officer to reach out the window and try to wrestle a suspect into his car. Which of these two unlikely scenarios do you think is more likely?....... I don't know if everything happened the way Officer Wilson said it did, but the forensic evidence shows that several of the witnesses against him had told lies.

Brown had just committed a robbery. Why would he walk down the middle of the street and thus attract attention to himself? But he did. Why would he run toward a cop when he had already been wounded? But he did. Brown seems to have racked up an incredible string of stupid moves in a ten minute time frame.

The married 18-year police veteran, who has an 11-year-old son, had just arrived at Southern Tier Imaging when MRI technician James Clark, 43, wildly ran up to him before punching him several times as he was trying to exit his vehicle, said Zikuski.

During the attack witnesses said Clark managed to somehow grab Smith's weapon and repeatedly open fire until the 40-caliber duty's magazine was spent.

This wasn't a no-knock SWAT raid on a jailhouse's snitch's tip that killed an elderly widow, like the kind that Revenant and I justifiably get angry about. This was an entirely different situation.

A lot missing from this account from the time Brown flees the police car.

Why did Wilson get out and give chase alone when he knew that backup was only a few moments away?

What were the distances between Wilson and Brown at various times?

Brown was 50 yards from the police car when he died. How far was Brown from Wilson when he turned around? How far was he when Wilson started to fire? Did Wilson fire at all before Brown turned around? Why and how did Wilson let Brown approach to "8-10" feet before any stopping shot was fired?

By the way, who was doing the questioning? This is a pattern of questioning you would get on a friendly direct examination, not an aggressive direct or cross examination.

I have not read all the available evidence and probably won't, so I reach no conclusions based on this particular testimony. But it is strange that no more detail was elicited in this particular testimony..

If cops killing innocent blacks happens every day as claimed, couldn't they have found a better poster boy for their cause than the "gentle" giant?

11/26/14, 1:10 AM

The media and some of the professional agitators were looking for a "Similar to Treyvon" incident, in that would involve a male black teen being killed by a white person (or 'white Hispanic' to The New York Times). That was the hook to make Brown's death into a national story. Even the "shot after leaving a convenience store" part of the story followed the narrative of the situation prior to Martin's shooting by George Zimmerman.

So the similarities were irresistible to those seeking in essence a ratings/high media profile sequel to what happened in Florida in 2012-13. Where the narrative blew up was that Martin didn't do anything wrong during his visit to the c-store; Brown did and it was not just caught on video, but it was an action (lifting and tossing the store clerk) that fed into Wilson's testimony about Brown's strength during the struggle.

The controversial part of the story is the end of the encounter--after Brown tried to run, then turned around to face Wilson, and was fatally shot. Up to that point Brown had been a dumbass, but what was in dispute is whether at the end he was trying to charge Wilson or surrender to him.

The thing is, no one alive knows what Brown was trying to do at the end, and Wilson claims he thought Brown was going to attack him. It's likely Wilson did feel that way (otherwise it would have been a cold blooded execution that he'd know he'd have to answer for, rather than a simple arrest), but let's accept that no one knows for sure.

Considering the evidence or lack thereof, there simply isn't enough for a reasonable jury to have found Wilson did anything illegal. Witness accounts varied, and the physical evidence conforms with Wilson's story. The grand jury didn't indict, and there's no reason to believe that they should have.

There is talk about how the prosecutor should have presented only the evidence against Wilson and not the evidence to help him, as prosecutors often do when they want indictments--though that's debatable, and frankly if a prosecutor believes he has no case he shouldn't have brought charges anyway. Political pressure is the worst reason to bring an indictment.

Can cops overstep their bounds, and are black suspects more likely to bear the brunt of this? Probably, but try and find a better poster child than Brown--this is not a good case for that.

The gloves protect the puncher's hand quite a lot. That is why MMA tends to have fewer concussions than boxing. Because punchers can't just try and hit haymakers without possibly breaking their hands with their far smaller gloves.

You will hit a lot less hard if your hands aren't protected very much doing so.

It's a truism--and true--that eyewitnesses are unreliable, and "eyewitness testimony," while the most compelling to jurors, is the least worthy evidence that can be presented at trial. People see things they expect to see, or fill in the blanks after the fact, according to any number of factors, (e.g, what they are predisposed to think they saw, what they hear others claims to have seen, etc.)

My father, who attended college in the late 40s to early 50s, had a psychology class in which, one day, the door was jerked open suddenly and a man ran into the room, chased by another man, and they exited through the window. (This was a ground floor classroom, obviously.)

After settling the class down, the professor asked the students to write down, with as much detail as possible, what they had seen, and including descriptions of the two who had run through the classroom.

Needless to say, there was a wide range of often conflicting "eyewitness" descriptions of the two men and the sequence of events.

I believe this kind of stunt has been a often-used for many years in classes in psychology and criminology, and is meant to demonstrate the unreliability of one's own perceptions when one is startled by an abrupt and unexpected (and swiftly concluded) event.

I can't offer a definitive opinion on this matter. It is indisputable that cops are often precipitously and arbitrarily aggressive, violent, and punitive in their professional encounters with non-cops; many cops, simply, are thugs. Yet, cops are like any of us and in the seconds of an encounter with someone who may be a threat, anyone can become fearful and convinced they will be seriously harmed or even killed if they do not use lethal force. This is as true of persons subject to police violence as of police officers facing those they perceive as threats; would that the same allowance were made for the victims of police who respond with violence against their attackers as is made as a matter of course for the police.

From what I have read of the events--not overly much, to be frank--I'm inclined to think Officer Wilson knowingly used unwarranted force against Brown, and the event may be another case of police murder--but I can't know this.

I believe it is always better that a guilty party go free than an innocent party be punished, and this must be so, as well, in cases of possible police murder where the evidence is murky.

That said, I also perfectly understand and think justified the explosive anger of a population who experience humiliation, degradation and violence from the police as an everyday reality. The police are out of control in this country, are becoming ever more militarized, not just in their tools, but in their outlook, and a drastic reform of police culture, policies, and practices is absolutely necessary...though there's not a chance it will happen.

"From what I have read of the events--not overly much, to be frank--I'm inclined to think Officer Wilson knowingly used unwarranted force against Brown, and the event may be another case of police murder--but I can't know this."

It is absolutely possible that Wilson acted improperly (at the last part of the stop, the part that is in genuine dispute) or even illegally. But there's no evidence for this, which is why the case had to be dropped. This was not the example of police abuse that protesters should have hung their hat on.

A couple of things. Apparently Wilson is about 6'4" also, but 205 or so' as contrasted with Brown's 295. The reports had Wilson shorter and lighter, but his GJ testimony has him taller. He didnt look it in the photos, but that puts him as tall and fairly thin. Not skinny - used to know a guy that height at 160 or so, and that is skinny.

Not clear yet actual distance of the outside shots. 10-30 ft maybe. But notably, Wilson was retreating, and Brown advancing at the time. We know this from the spent casings and blood trail. What must be remembered about the shooting distance is that police are apparently taught to shoot if a potential assailant gets w/I maybe 20-30 feet. 21 ft is, BTW, the Tueller Drill distance, which is the distance apparently that an average person can cross in 1.5 seconds from a stop. If they are already running towards you, it is probably 30 feet. I have a hard time believing that Wilson let Brown get to 10 feet before firing. He just seems too well trained in this area. Which is to say that in one of Brown's "charges", Wilson may have started shooting at a greater distance, then stopped when Brown stopped, maybe as close as 10'.

That said, I also perfectly understand and think justified the explosive anger of a population who experience humiliation, degradation and violence from the police as an everyday reality. The police are out of control in this country, are becoming ever more militarized, not just in their tools, but in their outlook, and a drastic reform of police culture, policies, and practices is absolutely necessary...though there's not a chance it will happen.

Just for the sake of argument, I'll temporarily stipulate that your characterization of the police is correct.

Please then explain how spreading the lies that the left is spreading on this case, and spread in the Trayvon Martin case, in order to foment riots and a race war will solve any of the issues you have with the police?

Cook - it probably does not put you in a good light, after all the evidence is out, and we have been discussing it for 160+ comments here, to suggest that you think that Wilson knowingly used excessive force because of the little you have read on the subject suggests it. It reinforces the belief of some that you tend to live in a liberal/progressive echo chamber.

I do agree with your point about eye witnesses. And the DA essentially pointed this out after the GJ jury results were out. I have been through such a demonstration, and failed miserably. Possibly making it worse this time were the societal problems faced by that section of Ferguson. There seems maybe to have been a concerted effort by some of the younger people there, possibly led by Brown's accomplice, to provide a story to police and press about Brown getting gunned down in the back, or after he had surrendered. And there may have been some intimidation by them to force the story on the community. The problem was apparently that these stories were refuted, not corroborated, by the extrinsic evidence. And that, I think, was part of what the DA was talking about - that a lot of stories changed when confronted by the evidence - that, for example, there were no entry wounds on Brown's back, so he couldn't have been shot running away, etc.

From witness statements, it isn't, for many, a good place to live. Young males, like Brown, are unemployed, sit around smoking dope all day, and terrorize the neighborhood. (Which I would, as usual, blame on progressive social policies since LBJ that have effectively destroyed Black families). Tension between cops and community, and esp with the young Black males like Brown, is always high. You see this in the witness statements, as well as the heightened state of alert that Wilson experienced that day when entering it. It is very possible that things might have gone differently in another part of the county. For one thing, Wilson appeared very conscientious in getting backup, and not wanting to deal with the two Black men alone.

"Please then explain how spreading the lies that the left is spreading on this case, and spread in the Trayvon Martin case, in order to foment riots and a race war will solve any of the issues you have with the police?"

First, how do you know "the left" is "spreading lies?" Why do not not assume whatever is being said by those who are outraged at this case or at the Trevon Martin case, who believe Wilson murdered Brown in cold blood or Zimmerman murdered Martin in cold blood, is not sincere? One hardly needs to be a "leftist" to believe these things or that the police are as much the enemy of the American people as they are friends.

(I'm among those who believe that, as Zimmerman initiated the encounter with Martin and escalate it, he murdered him in cold blood. Zimmerman's subsequent behavior does not convince me of an alternative view.)

Second, I don't think rioting is productive for those who oppose the police or the police state; it is, however, productive for those forces who wish to impose a further clampdown on the American people. I don't know whether the rioters are agents provocateurs or sincerely angry people who have let their emotions carry them away; it's probably the latter, mostly, with a minority of the former helping instigate violent behavior.

I make no secret that my statements regarding Wilson and Brown reveal my own prejudices; I made the statement as an admission of that. But, we all have prejudices in these matters, and those prejudices shape our views. However, I'm also aware of my prejudices and discussed at length in my remarks why one--why I--cannot know the truth of the encounter between Wilson and Brown, absent video documentation of the entire incident. In other words, rather than simply surrender to my prejudices, or deny them to myself, I make room for the possibility that the encounter truly was something that got out of hand without the officer having had any prior intent to harm or murder Brown.

We all must recognize where our prejudices take us, and not assume our perceptions are accurate indicators of reality.

Robert Cook said..."(I'm among those who believe that, as Zimmerman initiated the encounter with Martin and escalate it, he murdered him in cold blood. Zimmerman's subsequent behavior does not convince me of an alternative view.)"

Well, OK, now we know whom you are among. Those who believe flying pigs frequently collide with unicorns.

Give Cook credit here. He is the progressive here who makes honest and thoughtful comments. Compare his admission of bias here to the zany stuff we routinely get from Garbage and ARM. I frankly wish that there were more like him here. Not too many. But more.

Interesting how size difference has been put forth or diminished, but almost no mention of the fact that being seated vs standing changes that equation entirely.

Good point. Wilson kept trying to exit his vehicle, and that appears to be a big part of it. He knew that he had no chance of controlling Brown, or really protecting himself, until he was able to get out of it. Sitting in a Tahoe right now, and though they are big in front, they aren't that big. He made essentially this point a couple of times in his reenactment and testimony.

Why do not not assume whatever is being said by those who are outraged at this case or at the Trevon Martin case, who believe Wilson murdered Brown in cold blood or Zimmerman murdered Martin in cold blood, is not sincere?

A) Drive into a part of town dominated by African Americans, shoot one, drive home, and say nothing to anyone.

Or:

B) Form a neighborhood watch, patrol within the limited confines of the gated community, wait until an African American strolls by, NOT SHOOT, but instead CALL 911, alerting the police. Then he puts himself in jeopardy, following Travyon on foot! Then he allows himself to get into a hand-to-hand scuffle with Trayvon!

No person, with an ounce of intelligence, would think a cold-blooded racist hell-bent on murder would: limit his hunting grounds to an area he is KNOWN to patrol, call 911, needlessly get out of his car, or willingly engage in hand-to-hand conflict!

So no, no intelligent, sincere person can possibly believe that Martin's death is the direct result of Zimmerman being this cold blood racist murderer. It is a lie perpetrated by the left.

A) Drive into a part of town dominated by African Americans, shoot one, drive home, and say nothing to anyone.

Or:

B) Join the police academy, become a patrol officer, where he waits for YEARS until he finally gets his chance to satisfy his blood lust, RADIO that he needs backup (who would ASK for a witness to a cold-blooded murder?), and then shoot magic bullets that go AROUND the fleeing Brown, so that the entry wounds are on Brown's FRONT. And all in the middle of a populated area, in the middle of day?

Again, only an idiot, or an insincere leftist (but I repeat myself) would buy scenario B.

Michael,That's what makes them so cold blooded..the years of plotting without exhibiting their hidden demons...calling 911 before murdering someone (thereby innoculating themselves from murder accusations) shows just how cunning and manipulative they are...ya gotta get with the program ;)

By the way for some comparison the record for the 60m dash is about 6.39 seconds. That's 180 feet. Now there's no way brown could run that fast, but there's also no way they were 60 m's apart either. Say they were 33 meters apart. It doesn't take that long for Brown to reach Wilson. It's a matter of seconds. They were probably less than a100m apart. Were then talking about the difference of

My favorite part of Wilson's account is that while beating Wilson, he turned around and asked his friend to take his cigarillos, so he could continue beating him unimpeded. Riiiiight.

Yours and Ezra Klien's...problem is that's not only in Wilson's account, it's also in Johnson's (the friend). So are you calling Johnson a liar and alleging that somehow Wilson and Johnson got together to match their stories up, or are you ready to recognize your ignorance of the facts around that sarcasm, chief?