As your swing goes out of the slot position as it approaches the ball and contact the shoulder rotates forward and the forearm pronates and across. It rotates just how it sounds.

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not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.

Now imagine how smooth this transition will look in super slow mo.
Do you have any idea how much more force or torque is require to lift the front
wheel at speed and at fractions of a second?
Now imagine how much more force is required to lift that Wheelie
on a bike that is stretched to help stop the wheel from lifting.

All that enormous force is applied in fractions of a second...way more than
any tennis player can generate with a racket swing.....

And all done just as smooth as can be with no evidence except the smooth
lift of the front wheel.
Now why would you expect to see any more visual cue from the effort to
accel the racket into contact?

If I used my biceps actively ala the wegner yank in order to not hit my face with my racket the shoulder rotated and the finish was across.

When I was trying to exaggerate the ISR ala yandel I ended up with just about the same stroke.

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Wait a minute here, lol!

I agree that both ideas can help you to find and feel the stroke, but how did
Jy get any credit here?? I was the one who mentioned that ISR to you in this
thread and Jy was the one asking what is ISR.
Awe, Come on Man!

not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.

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That's basically what I said. The shoulder rotates and that makes the rest of the arm rotate. Perhaps I was not clear.

I agree that both ideas can help you to find and feel the stroke, but how did
Jy get any credit here?? I was the one who mentioned that ISR to you in this
thread and Jy was the one asking what is ISR.
Awe, Come on Man!

not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.

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Hmm...this ISR thing sounds so complicated. Do you guys know a good youtube video of a pro doing this?

For me I just hit the ball and ease my shoulder along so not to jam the arm into the chest. That's all! Is this caveman's hitting?

Hmm...this ISR thing sounds so complicated. Do you guys know a good youtube video of a pro doing this?

For me I just hit the ball and ease my shoulder along so not to jam the arm into the chest. That's all! Is this caveman's hitting?

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just follow jy's arm outstretched instructions. it's just rotating your shoulder. helps prevent the face from opening too much before contact and helps you close the face if you want w/o weird stiff contortions of your wrist and helps you get a more stable hit because your putting a little force in the opposite direction.

You ever see a slow mo vid where some pro is swinging and the racquet face is slightly closed and through contact it follows a nice continuous angle as if they had wrists of steel and when you try to copy that swing it just doesn't look right or your face opens etc or you can't maintain that swing shape at full speed? Well chances are they are employing a little bit of isr there.

edit: here's an example although is not terribly obvious. See how Djoko's racquet face and hitting structure seems to maintain it's shape at contact and afterwards? He has a loose grip so he's not struggling to make the face follow that path. Just a touch of isr at the right moment keeps everything 'healthy'http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=mWOVWARCxbU

Also if you ever try shadow swinging w/o a racquet like we all do in the super market or while on the phone you'll notice how your hand always seems to have a perfect swing path at contact and slightly closed and just flows through the contact point. that's probably cuz your using a little bit of isr.

just follow jy's arm outstretched instructions. it's just rotating your shoulder. helps prevent the face from opening too much before contact and helps you close the face if you want w/o weird stiff contortions of your wrist and helps you get a more stable hit because your putting a little force in the opposite direction.

You ever see a slow mo vid where some pro is swinging and the racquet face is slightly closed and through contact it follows a nice continuous angle as if they had wrists of steel and when you try to copy that swing it just doesn't look right or your face opens etc or you can't maintain that swing shape at full speed? Well chances are they are employing a little bit of isr there.

edit: here's an example although is not terribly obvious. See how Djoko's racquet face and hitting structure seems to maintain it's shape at contact and afterwards? He has a loose grip so he's not struggling to make the face follow that path. Just a touch of isr at the right moment keeps everything 'healthy'http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=mWOVWARCxbU

Also if you ever try shadow swinging w/o a racquet like we all do in the super market or while on the phone you'll notice how your hand always seems to have a perfect swing path at contact and slightly closed and just flows through the contact point. that's probably cuz your using a little bit of isr.

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Cheetah,

I thought that was the only way possible to hit the ball. Well, actually one of the two ways. The other way being like Sharapova whose racket face moves like an open palm slapping through and through.

Yeah, I get the elbow raise and maintaining the racket face facing forward as much as possible.

Hey that Nalby's hitting style is interesting, isn't it? It goes against the idea of leading/attacking the ball with the racket edge. He opens up the racket face very early and seems like it's very hard for the racket to miss the ball, right?

I thought that was the only way possible to hit the ball. Well, actually one of the two ways. The other way being like Sharapova whose racket face moves like an open palm slapping through and through.

Yeah, I get the elbow raise and maintaining the racket face facing forward as much as possible.

Hey that Nalby's hitting style is interesting, isn't it? It goes against the idea of leading/attacking the ball with the racket edge. He opens up the racket face very early and seems like it's very hard for the racket to miss the ball, right?

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Yea the sharapova slap. I guess some ppl do it naturally and some have to learn it.

I know what you mean in that Nalby vid. He's making some nice contact though. That vid reminds me of this Henin video. A little different but similar. She's really striking it well here. I like when she moves back and kicks it up a bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb_yYgT-CL4

The coaches here are not unknown - they are some of the best in the business. You can save a lot of money by just reading the stuff here.

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well, to be exact, most of the coaches here use an alias, which i think is a good and understandable thing to do in an internet forum if you don´t want to sell something.
´some of the best in the business´- that´s a typical sureshs exaggeration
there is a number of coaches here, whose advice i cherish. two of this folks post in this thread regularly, one of them started it.
funnily enough they don´t agree about a lot but that´s another story
if i posted a video here, i would listen closely to their advice, and take from it what i like and leave the rest. tbc...

well, to be exact, most of the coaches here use an alias, which i think is a good and understandable thing to do in an internet forum if you don´t want to sell something.
´some of the best in the business´- that´s a typical sureshs exaggeration
there is a number of coaches here, whose advice i cherish. two of this folks post in this thread regularly, one of them started it.
funnily enough they don´t agree about a lot but that´s another story
if i posted a video here, i would listen closely to their advice, and take from it what i like and leave the rest. tbc...

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A lot of tips come from non-coaches too. I have found gems in comments by ordinary players. Once incorporated, I forget where they originated from, so I can't list them now.

You should try to summarize those articles in a few simple English sentences.
But yeah, any competent researcher is going to reach similar conclusions.

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John,

1.One piece is that numerical data (presented in a graph) should NOT be trusted
in the interval starting four milliseconds before the contact and finishing four
milliseconds after the contact
One of your articles (or BG's) touches the issue as well in the case of SERVE.

2.The movement of the racket upwards starts 11 milliseconds before the contact.It is quite late
I am NOT sure the number of 11 milliseconds is correct
See the dotted curve crossing the horizontal line x=0 axis at time equal 11 milliseconds.
It is related to the issue how steep the upward TRAJECTORY IS

A lot of tips come from non-coaches too. I have found gems in comments by ordinary players. Once incorporated, I forget where they originated from, so I can't list them now.

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neither would i want you to
what a good coach can do is train you, teach you and coach you.
based on her/his personal knowledge of your game and physical and mental capabilities. that is much more than tips.
anyway, my aim is not to convince you,i know my limits
most people will agree that if you want to learn a musical instrument the best way is to take lessons with a certified teacher and not depend on tips over the internet. it´s the same with tennis

^^^Yep, a lot of the tips shared on here are good (and a mahooosive amount are pure horse****!), but they are things that other players have been told (either in person by a coach, or something they read in a book or on t'internet) and as such are "second hand" tips - in other words they are not tailored to you and your needs as a player. There is no substitute to seeing a good professional coach!

neither would i want you to
what a good coach can do is train you, teach you and coach you.
based on her/his personal knowledge of your game and physical and mental capabilities. that is much more than tips.
anyway, my aim is not to convince you,i know my limits
most people will agree that if you want to learn a musical instrument the best way is to take lessons with a certified teacher and not depend on tips over the internet. it´s the same with tennis

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Most of the things I learnt for my work were on my own. And I continue to do so. I did take a clinic end of last year, you know.

Most of the things I learnt for my work were on my own. And I continue to do so.
Yes, i assumed as much from some of your posts. and you take that approach over to tennis. i can understand that. but a critical and contrarian mind like yourself could ask the question whether there isn´t a better and more efficient way to learn. do you send your kids to school or do you let them learn by themselves? I did take a clinic end of last year, you know.
while you were in hawaii? i´m not a big fan of clinics. too many things can go wrong and the coaches there usually don´t know you or your game

This vid is awesome for showing how on the inside out Fh, the hand is already
is moving well across to Fed's left, (our rt) before contact.
Hand is clearly moving to Fed's left comparing to the background and ball goes off to
Fed's right.
If someone doesn't get it from this vid, they are just not willing to accept what
the vid clearly shows. No idea how Jy could argue the vid does not confirm
what MTM states about pulling up & across into contact.

The vid also addresses moving back during the stroke.

There is another key aspect in telling which of these in I/O and which is I/I, for those who notice.
__________________
************
MTM Instructor -Pro Supex Big Ace

This vid is awesome for showing how on the inside out Fh, the hand is already
is moving well across to Fed's left, (our rt) before contact.
Hand is clearly moving to Fed's left comparing to the background and ball goes off to
Fed's right.
If someone doesn't get it from this vid, they are just not willing to accept what
the vid clearly shows. [/QUOTE]

Do you think there's a 'hard distinction' between modern and classical tennis? I don't. I agree with the idea that there have been adjustments in stroke mechanics, some of which have become de facto standard for top level tennis, made over the years by the top players to maximize the advantages that changes in racquet and string technology might confer.

On a side note, what is the opinion about the claim that club tennis is way more advanced today than in the past? Meaning that a 4.5 of the old days would be a 3.5 today? I did not say this, but I remember people posting along those lines a while ago.

On a side note, what is the opinion about the claim that club tennis is way more advanced today than in the past? Meaning that a 4.5 of the old days would be a 3.5 today? I did not say this, but I remember people posting along those lines a while ago.

This vid is awesome for showing how on the inside out Fh, the hand is already
is moving well across to Fed's left, (our rt) before contact.
Hand is clearly moving to Fed's left comparing to the background and ball goes off to
Fed's right.
If someone doesn't get it from this vid, they are just not willing to accept what
the vid clearly shows.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

Great video and instruction, clearly shows more hitting across than towards target. Wow I thought that it is wrong to pull back and hit off the back foot. Why are they not stepping in and transferring their weight forward?

Why does their racket not go towards the target? I thought that this must be done if hitting correctly, they must have been taught the wrong technique.

I played for about a year in '76, and for about 8 months of 2012, and have been a fan and frequent spectator from '72 to now. I agree that open tournament level tennis looks much faster and more taxing today. But I don't see it in normal rec play from 3.0 to 4.0+.