I know there's dissension on whether they can or not be proper hero classes, but let's suppose they would be fine. The focus of this thread is to talk about their possible starting zone, and I would like you to give new ideas and/or comment the posted ones.

First of all, it should be at Azeroth. Yeah, it's a bit weird, but let's consider they are on a mission or something, meaning they have left Outland in purpose until they finish it.

Second, where in Azeroth. My choice would be a new small coastal zone between Azshara and Winterspring. The ruins of Nendis would be located here, and the base of the demon hunters would be located inside a small cavern, which could be the original sanctuary of the demon hunters back at the WotA (where they started training or something).

Now, here comes the point where I'd like most to read your opinions, since I'm unsure of what reason the Illidari could have to come to this place. I've some, but I'm not convinced yet:

-They come for an artifact
-They come to kill a demon spy fleeing from Outland
-They come to save some prisoners

There are some blood elves at Azshara, and they could be working for Kael, so they could tie up with the plot.

Whatever that plot, the player demon hunters are rare cases of warriors trained by someone special, that decided to try new stuff and teach everyone, even if the other Illidari considered them inferior. This allows the players to be any race, despite Illidari's main demon hunter race being the blood elves. From that we start any of those 3 plots:

The first idea, the artifact one, would be the Illidari coming to Azeroth to retrieve an item, and find other forces wanting to stop them. The Timbermaw Hold furbolgs and the Watchers are an option, and the Cenarion Circle fits, too.

The second one, the chase one, would be the Illidari coming to Azeroth to kill that demon before he manages to contact the main Burning Legion leadership at Azeroth. The demon could be surrounded inside the zone, and he could be manipulating some locals.

The third and final one, the prisoners one, would be the Illidari coming to Azeroth to rescue some potential allies, like other demon hunters or pretty much anyone that could pledge them allegiance. They could have fled from the Watchers' prison.

Whatever, none of them 3 manages to convince me completely. Any ideas on a better plot for their reasons to be here?

After they finish the quests, they could be abandoned, or they could dessert, making them able to rejoin their respective factions.

CHARACTERS LORE

Illidan would be leading the operation in the zone (yeah, the events are supposed to happen before his death) while our trainer could be Altruis the Sufferer. Later, he would abandon us, and his right hand, his better student, would take the mantle and lead us once we become independent.

The other leaders could make some basic cameos. Kael could have some talk with the blood elf expedition at Azshara, and Vashj cold be reporting about activity on her former city. Akama could be around, as Illidan's bodyguard, and all the other demon hunters, Theras, Netharel and Alandien, could appear around, too.

The other known existing demon hunters could be our enemy, having their base here, where they meet and stuff. We could fight against rebel Illidari, too. The point of this all would be to tie us up with a future neutral faction, composed of the Illidari that survived Illidan's death and formed a new faction, lead by Akama and allied with A'dal and the Sha'tar.

In the end, the faction would become a counterpart to a bigger one, like the Cenarion Circle, the same way the Knights of the Ebon Blade counterpart the Argent Crusade.

Opinions, new ideas and/or suggestion? Looking forward them .

PS: Reminder: This thread isn't about the class itself, it's about the zone they could start in and how their starting lore would build up. I don't care about the class gameplay.

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

Screw the Illidari completely if you ask me. All the trainees for Illidan's army we're nothing more than selffish pricks who wanted more arcane for themselves. If anything have Altruis make a new school of Demon Hunters and the trainees under him are all the people who have lost families/friends to the demons and wish to fight fire with fire. Make them connected to A'dal's forces and stuff so you got a sense of union that these guys work together to defeat the Demons.

It would be cool if Altruis the Sufferer made his own little faction comprised of renegades and demon hunters bent on undoing to Burning Legion completely. It would kind of make sense too, considering that it would make sense to allow the players to remain part of the Alliance and the Horde.

I'd also like to see their starting zone phasing to cover TBC > Whatever expansion they're released in, so that we get the feel that they spend many years in training/questing/whatever it is they are doing there, and as such would explain their absence from the world during The second Scourge and the Cataclysm.

I'd like to see Altruis the Sufferer as faction leader. Perhaps the playable Demon Hunters are like him, and grew disillusioned with Illidan after his insanity struck and manifested. They did not want to betray him, however, and so opted to exile themselves back to Kalimdor, into Felwood and were content to remain there to fulfil their true purpose - to hunt the world from demons.

I actually think there are 8 races which should be able to take this hero class, and those are Night Elves, Draenai, Dwarves,Humans, Orcs, Trolls, Forsaken and Blood Elves. Even then, I'm not sure about humans and forsaken.

Regardless. Here's my brainstorming:

In the wake of the Betrayer's growing madness, Altruis the Sufferer grew disillusioned with his masters steadeily decreasing grasp on reality. Seeking a place to shelter his thoughts, he and his followers (of which some were allready Demon Hunters, of which others were not) returned through the dark portal and returned to Kalimdor, drawn by the stench of demons into Felwood. Making it their mission to cleanse Felwood of its corruption, The Demon Hunters seal themselves off from the rest of the world, taking up residence in the deep barrows which once served as their masters prison, now abandonned in the wake of his escape. With a long tunnel system reaching all through northern Kalimdor, the Zin-Illidari operate like shadows, moving in to remove demonic influence where they see it, without care for the deforesting of Ashenvale, or either the alliance or the Horde's intentions for the surrounding areas.

Assuming the starting quests will span levels 55-70 (so that they can hit Northrend afterwards, I guess) each section will give enough EXP to last 5 levels, I guess, before a new "jump" occurs, where phasing will skip through to what the players were up to during another expansion. The first section, described above, takes place during The Burning Crusade, and phasing will be about how the DH player aids the Zin-Illidari in reclaiming theese lost prisons, aiding in rebuilding it as a training grounds of sort, and then going on rogue missions in their fight against the Shadow Council. It will also deal with personal training, obtaining your own warglaives, learning to imbue your weapons with demons (much like Death Knights have class specific weapon enchants in form of runes) and so forth.

60-65

During the second Scourge, The Zin-Illidari become more aware of the Cult of the Damned's presence around the world. By this time, the Zin-Illidari is "ruled" by a council of Demon Hunters calling themselves "Children of Illidan", who were, like Altruis, Demon Hunters trained by Illidan himself. Amongst them is the female blood elf, Jenara Skyblaze, who tries to persuade the Zin-Illidari to action, reminding everyone that his defeat against Arthas and the Scourge was what drove Illidan to the brink of madness in the first place, and the the Scourge is as much of an enemy to the Illidari as the legion is.

The rest of the council, following Altruis's example most of the time, votes against her, however, and the Zin-Illidari remain secluded from the rest of the world, dealing with the Scourge only when they encroach onto their lands or happen to come in their path.

Throughout WotLK, the Zin-Illidari gain new enemies in the form of the Argus Wake and Flaming Blade, both of which arrive to Felwood at the call of the Shadow Council. The whole 60-65 tier of questing is about dismantling the Shadow Council and their allies, attempting at the same time to discover their motives. The questing culminates in a showdown at Jadenar, the seat of the legions power in Kalimdor, where the Zin-Illidari learns that the Council is plotting a coup in Lordaeron, far across the sea.

The coup in question is what occurs at the Wrathgate, and once more Jenara Skyblaze tries to rally her peers and fellow councilmembers into action, deciding that it is time for the Zin-Illidari to reveal themselves to the world and take their part in the war against the Scourge. Altruis steps up and accuses Skyblaze of being biased, because of what the Scourge did to her people, and ultimatly, the Zin-Illdari do not go to action. It is here that tension between several groups within the Zin-Illidari starts to grow stronger. The player character will automatically sympathize and gain more specific quests from the supporters of their faction specific NPC (Altruis if the character is a Night Elf, Dwarf or Draenai - Jenara if they are Orcs, Trolls or Blood Elves).

65-70

At or near level 65, the Cataclysm sunders the world once more, exposing the Zin-Illidari to the open world as the shadowed city they've been thriving in for the last years is brought to ruin. Seeing the widespread destruction of the world, and with the Shadow Council's presence in Felwood eradicated, The Children of Illidan (of which the player character is now considered a honourary champion of) are considering whether or not the time has come to return to Draenor and rejoin their master.

Questing here will have to do with rescuing survivors of the Sundering, salvage what lore and resources that are possible, and at the same time fighting off the surfacing Twilight's Hammer cultists. It is here that the Zin-Illdari learn of both the return of the Highborn, the fall of Illidan and the betrayal of Kael'thas.

Near level 70'ish, tensions finally climaxes, and Jenara Skyblaze and Altruis The Sufferer prepare to combat eachother, with most if not all of the other Demon Hunters preparing to do the same. The player character intervenes, reminding the two Faction Leaders that the Shadow Council's presence in Felwood might be gone, but their allies - The Flaming Blade and the Argus Wake, may still have a presence within the Horde and the Alliance alike.

After a series of epic quests and battles, the Children of Illidan are abolished, and Jenara Skyblaze announces that she will return to Quel'thalas and that all who are willing to follow are free to do so.

Altruis the Sufferer is more passive about it, but he too announces his wish to see Teldrassil and Darnassus, the first capitol of the Night Elves since Azshara.

Players will then go through an initation questline, much like Death Knights did, by returning to Darnassus/Silvermoon together with their new faction-specific leaders. Theese initation quests will vary between the Horde and the Alliance Demon Hunters.

On both sides, the Demon Hunters will find sympathizers in the Knights of the Ebon Blade, for they know what its like to be outcasts and too be distrusted. The Demon Hunters have an ancient history of betrayal amongst the Night Elves, and unlike their undead sympathizers, the Demon Hunters went into Illidans service willingly. They are tolerated, not accepted. A neccesary ally in the age of the Cataclysm, much like Warlocks.

The Alliance Demon Hunters return to Darnassus to gain the blessing of Elune from Tyrande -Fandral Staghelm on the other hand refuses to bless the incorporation of theese abominations into the alliance. At this point, the player travel all across the capital cities of the alliance under various quests to unroot and expose the Argus Wake. They work alongside NPC's such as Varian Wrynn, Jaina Proudmoore, Fandral Staghelm, Tyrande Whisperwind, Altruis The Sufferer, Thassarian and Mordent Evershade before finally facing of with the leader of the Argus Wake cult. After his defeat, the player completes a quest and is accepted as a member of the alliance, and the phasing ends. He is now able to interact with other, non DH players.

Demon Hunter trainers will pop up around alliance cities either in the vicinity of rogue or Warlock NPC's, whereas Altruis the Sufferer will be positioned in a new building in Darnassus called "Highborn's Ascension", where he will now count as a co-faction leader together with Mordent Evenshade. The Highborn's Ascension will be the local point of Demon Hunters and Mages in Teldrassil.

The Horde Demon Hunters return to Quel'thalas to learn about Kael'thas' betrayal and its subsequent consequences. Halduron Brightwing is disgusted by what he perceives as Illidari minions no better then the Sunfury, and will leave Silvermoon city and instead be placed amongst the Farstriders at Farstrider's retreat in Eversong.

After some persuasion from both Lady Liadrin and Grand Magister Rommath, Lor'themar Theron finally agrees to give his blessing to the Zin-Illidari, but has some reservations. The player character is then to travel around the Horde's capitol cities, seeking acceptance and blessings from the various leaders and at the same time working closely with NPC's such as Koltira Deathweaver, Sylvanas Windrunner, Garrosh Hellscream, Saurfang, Vol'Jin and Magatha Grimtotem to uncover the operations of the Burning Blade. After the confrontation with the Burning Blade's leader in Orgrimmar, the player is finally accepted as a member of the Horde, and the phasing ends.

Demon Hunter trainers will be available in all cities where Rogue or Warlock trainers can be found. Determined to aid her people, and by default, the Horde, Jenara Skyblaze will become a new faction co-leader for the Blood Elves, patrolling constantly inbetween Murder Row, Sunfury Spire, The orb of Translocation and the Throne room of Lordaeron, with various random dialogue options.

Good ideas, Verdande . And, trust me, I've seen walls of texts that are way bigger than yours, some of them made by me .

My point was that we start under Altruis, alligned with the Illidari, but we leave them, because they are power-hungry bastards. Later Altruis makes a new school, and we get to be part of it, but the players' origin should be linked to the Illidari somehow.

Just because I want to interact with Illidan and the Illidari .

It could be something like Altruis wanting to believe on Illidan, although it's obvious he's changed into what he fought. Altruis sees the role of the Demon Hunter as something noble, and everyone with the will to fight should have the right to be taught; but Illidan and co. are power-hungry bastards, and despise the "lesser ones" Altruis decided to train.

After that, something happens that proves to Altruis the Illidari are corrupt and whatever. He leaves the players at Azeroth, and goes back to Azeroth, just to dessert.

The Demon Hunter faction wouldn't be lead by Altruis himself. He would be someone like, say, Alexandros for the KotEB. His best student would lead the faction instead.

Also, I prefer to have them a base linked to the first demon hunters ever. Using the Watchers' headquarters is just... wrong. First of all, they are in a non-implemented zone (Barrow Deeps) and they should still be controlled by the Watchers.

I don't think the "noble purpose" would work in the long run to be perfectly honest. Demon Hunters really aren't much diffrent from Warlocks, the only real diffrence I can see is that whereas Warlocks are of a more sorcerous origin, Demon Hunters prefer the use of warglaives. Some of them still use magic though, Illidan himself was a powerful sorceror.

And all magic corrupts. Fel magic even more so. The Demon Hunters way of life is what Illidan taught Kael'thas, and which helped the Blood Elves to rise again... They've since been given the Sunwell back, but still haven't recovered from their magical addiction. Fel crystals still litter their cities, Warlocks are still common =P

I don't think the "noble purpose" would work in the long run to be perfectly honest. Demon Hunters really aren't much diffrent from Warlocks, the only real diffrence I can see is that whereas Warlocks are of a more sorcerous origin, Demon Hunters prefer the use of warglaives. Some of them still use magic though, Illidan himself was a powerful sorceror.

Eh this is a wrong assumption. The Demon Hunters are more physical soldiers who bond a demon soul within them, and the stronger they get the more demonic powers they gain which are similiar to the one they bond with.

Illidan wasn't a Demon Hunter like Altruis, literally the demon hunters are Illidan wannabies, but ofcourse since most playerbase will never grasp this idea they just might refer these two as the same. =(

I have a demon hunter idea, but it ties in a lot with my Emerald Dream Expansion idea (you can read the full version here)

In creating my Demon Hunter, I took a similar approach to what was taken with Death Knight. Death Knights are a fusion of WC3 Death Knights, Necromancers, and Runemasters. My Demon Hunters are a fusion between WC3 Demon Hunters, Wardens, and Druids of the Nightmare.

For my idea, the demon hunters start in the Ravine of Shadows, an Area of the Emerald Nightmare south of the Eye of Ysera. The player character is an Unwaking, trapped in the Nightmare. Here, they find an unlikely ally; Illidan Stormrage, his spirit more specifically.

"But HED, he went insane!" you say? I have a way to explain that. One name; Gul'dan.

Basically, Illidan didn't just get Gul'dan's memories when he absorbed his Skull; in fact, Gul'dan's spirit possessed him. When Illidan was defeated at the foot of the Frozen Throne, Gul'dan took control. Illidan became a prisoner in his own body as he watched Gul'dan pose as him, oppressing Outland. During the raid on Black Temple, Illidan embraced death, seeing that it would free him from his imprisonment. But Illidan was not content with dying; his spirit found its way to the Emerald Nightmare, where he became trapped again.

But this time there was a way out of the prison. Instead of resisting the energies of the Nightmare, Illidan embraced them, bending them to his will. Illidan freed himself, but he had no body, and all the people of Azeroth saw him as a monster. And so he remained. He began training a new order of demon hunters from those who had become Unwaking.

The final part of the starting zone has you, Illidan, and various other demon hunters save the day at the Eye of Ysera, defeating an attack by the forces on the Nightmare. After Eranikus was purified, the Old God behind the Nightmare revealed himself and now seeks to corrupt Ysera as its champion. However, the Old God will find that the Nightmare will not be its for long.

I have a demon hunter idea, but it ties in a lot with my Emerald Dream Expansion idea (you can read the full version here)

Yeah, I linked them to the ED expansion at first, too. I later decided to move them to the Old God expansion, just because I wanted them to be already playable during Azshara expansion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

In creating my Demon Hunter, I took a similar approach to what was taken with Death Knight. Death Knights are a fusion of WC3 Death Knights, Necromancers, and Runemasters. My Demon Hunters are a fusion between WC3 Demon Hunters, Wardens, and Druids of the Nightmare.

Same here. I made them a mix between Demon Hunter, Warden and Blademaster. Eventually, those roles would match with the 3 commanders of the new Illidari: Altruis the Sufferer, Maiev Shadowsong and Lantresor of the Burning Blade. The leader, Akama, has a bit of each one.

That just regarding the fight-style. The trees would probably focus on Attack, Defense and Summonings: Fel-fire, Possesion and Siphoning. But that's not the topic, so let's return to the zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

For my idea, the demon hunters start in the Ravine of Shadows, an Area of the Emerald Nightmare south of the Eye of Ysera. The player character is an Unwaking, trapped in the Nightmare. Here, they find an unlikely ally; Illidan Stormrage, his spirit more specifically.

It's a good idea, and completely related to the ED, cause a lot of mortals would have been trapped in their own nightmares.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

"But HED, he went insane!" you say? I have a way to explain that. One name; Gul'dan.

Basically, Illidan didn't just get Gul'dan's memories when he absorbed his Skull; in fact, Gul'dan's spirit possessed him. When Illidan was defeated at the foot of the Frozen Throne, Gul'dan took control. Illidan became a prisoner in his own body as he watched Gul'dan pose as him, oppressing Outland. During the raid on Black Temple, Illidan embraced death, seeing that it would free him from his imprisonment. But Illidan was not content with dying; his spirit found its way to the Emerald Nightmare, where he became trapped again.

I'm not so sure about Illidan returning like this. The "Gul'dan influence" idea is a nice one, but it feels to... out of place? I don't know. It's a good idea, but I don't get the setting yet. Perhaps it's because of Illidan returning in the ED. I don't know. I would probably use that idea for a possible return of Illidan, but outside of the ED. We have seen demons returning from the nether before, and I guess Illidan could return, as well.

Or we could get a new "Illidan", just like we'll be getting a new Lich King. I always saw Ner'zhul and Gul'dan as opposing powerful forces. Perhaps, someone could absorb the energies from Illidan, even without destroying him. We could get more than one. Whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

But this time there was a way out of the prison. Instead of resisting the energies of the Nightmare, Illidan embraced them, bending them to his will. Illidan freed himself, but he had no body, and all the people of Azeroth saw him as a monster. And so he remained. He began training a new order of demon hunters from those who had become Unwaking.

The final part of the starting zone has you, Illidan, and various other demon hunters save the day at the Eye of Ysera, defeating an attack by the forces on the Nightmare. After Eranikus was purified, the Old God behind the Nightmare revealed himself and now seeks to corrupt Ysera as its champion. However, the Old God will find that the Nightmare will not be its for long.

I would prefer it to be in the "real world", you know. Also, I'd like it to be happening before the events of the expansion. It's a great opportunity to play as a member of the Illidari, just like you played like a member of the Scourge with the DK.

Summarized: I think it's a pretty good idea. The only thing I dislike is the way Illidan returns and that the starting zone isn't at Kalimdor or the EK. Aside from that, love it.

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

Yeah, I linked them to the ED expansion at first, too. I later decided to move them to the Old God expansion, just because I wanted them to be already playable during Azshara expansion.

My Order of expansions is Emerald Dream ->Maelstrom->(not sure what after this... Legion?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Same here. I made them a mix between Demon Hunter, Warden and Blademaster. Eventually, those roles would match with the 3 commanders of the new Illidari: Altruis the Sufferer, Maiev Shadowsong and Lantresor of the Burning Blade. The leader, Akama, has a bit of each one.

That just regarding the fight-style. The trees would probably focus on Attack, Defense and Summonings: Fel-fire, Possesion and Siphoning. But that's not the topic, so let's return to the zone.

I'm not so sure about Illidan returning like this. The "Gul'dan influence" idea is a nice one, but it feels to... out of place? I don't know. It's a good idea, but I don't get the setting yet. Perhaps it's because of Illidan returning in the ED. I don't know. I would probably use that idea for a possible return of Illidan, but outside of the ED. We have seen demons returning from the nether before, and I guess Illidan could return, as well.

I approached bring back Illidan with a few thoughts. I didn't want him to be a villain again, but I wanted to explain how we recovered from his insanity. I don't remember exactly how I came up with the Gul'dan possession idea, but I like it. Not only does it make Illidan's return to his WC3 mentality much easier, but it allows me to bring back Gul'dan in such a way that it doesn't contradict anything (ya, Gul'dan finds his way to the Nightmare as well)

The way I've constructed the expansion aims for Illidan and Malfurion to be sorta the Darion and Tirion, except I think there would be more, and more interesting, interaction between them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Or we could get a new "Illidan", just like we'll be getting a new Lich King. I always saw Ner'zhul and Gul'dan as opposing powerful forces. Perhaps, someone could absorb the energies from Illidan, even without destroying him. We could get more than one. Whatever.

Not so hot on this idea. Illidan is a person, while the Lich King is a title and a 'job'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

I would prefer it to be in the "real world", you know. Also, I'd like it to be happening before the events of the expansion. It's a great opportunity to play as a member of the Illidari, just like you played like a member of the Scourge with the DK.

I couldn't think of a place in EK or Kalimdor that I thought was appropriate. Not to mention it just ties in better with the rest of my idea if its in the Dream

In my expansion it does take place before it starts. The Nightmare's defeat at the Eye is comparable to the Scourge's defeat at Light's Hope. I'm not such a huge fan of the Illidari

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Summarized: I think it's a pretty good idea. The only thing I dislike is the way Illidan returns and that the starting zone isn't at Kalimdor or the EK. Aside from that, love it.

My DHs don't heal life, but mana. It's kind of a new mechanic. The third one is similar to Warlock's demonology, save that, instead of summoning demons, they "possess" them, to get their powers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

I approached bring back Illidan with a few thoughts. I didn't want him to be a villain again, but I wanted to explain how we recovered from his insanity. I don't remember exactly how I came up with the Gul'dan possession idea, but I like it. Not only does it make Illidan's return to his WC3 mentality much easier, but it allows me to bring back Gul'dan in such a way that it doesn't contradict anything (ya, Gul'dan finds his way to the Nightmare as well)

Yeah, read WoWWiki page as well (about Gul'dan returning, too).

I'd prefer his insanity to be explained, rather than deleted. But whatever. If you get to explain it properly, he wasn't insane, and that makes things even easier. Anyway, he's good dead, for now; in my opinion, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

The way I've constructed the expansion aims for Illidan and Malfurion to be sorta the Darion and Tirion, except I think there would be more, and more interesting, interaction between them.

It's, no doubt, a relationship that has a lot of potential, but I think Illidan is done with Malfurion. I would like to see more about Tyrande and the Watchers, after what she did, but aside from that, Illidan cut off with the night elves at TFT, and I think any of the 2 sides want to recover that relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Not so hot on this idea. Illidan is a person, while the Lich King is a title and a 'job'

Well, I was speaking more about a role than anything. Their natures are very different, but in the end, they are the opposite forces of each other. The succession process could be way different with each one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

I couldn't think of a place in EK or Kalimdor that I thought was appropriate. Not to mention it just ties in better with the rest of my idea if its in the Dream

You could try with some place you could later relate to the dream. For example:

-Stonetalon Oracle: Those caves are empty now that Medivh went into retirement, and I suspect they are a pretty powerful place.
-Empty zone between Silithus, Un'Goro Crater, Thousand Needles and Feralas: Anything could be there.
-Winterspring coasts: I used this for my idea, including the missing port-city of Nendis around. It's near the base of Hyjal, so there could be tunnels into Barrow Deeps and the Watchers' prison.

I haven't thought about any at EK, because I think they fit better at Kalimdor.

But your idea about the new demon hunters being people trapped in the nightmare is pretty good, too; although I would prefer the DHs have nothing to do with the dream, btw xDDD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

In my expansion it does take place before it starts. The Nightmare's defeat at the Eye is comparable to the Scourge's defeat at Light's Hope. I'm not such a huge fan of the Illidari

Omg! The Illidari are awesome. I would love to play as a member of the Illidari, and even more if I did with the old W3 Illidari, the ones that were really great, better than the current ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Thank you then

Supporting each others ftw .

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

My DHs don't heal life, but mana. It's kind of a new mechanic. The third one is similar to Warlock's demonology, save that, instead of summoning demons, they "possess" them, to get their powers.

Mana healing would be interesting. I wanted to give Demon Hunters healing because there's a need for healers. In the end, they ended up be rather like Shamans; a melee tree, a spell tree, and a healing tree.

At this point, I'm trying to work out if they would share itemization with shamans or druids. I don't want them wearing mail, but I could concede that. They have to use swords, as far as I'm concerned, so if they were implemented there would need to be a lot of caster swords (Shamans or Druids with swords are also cool to think about). Also, I'm trying to decide if they should be AP from Agility, given their reputation or speed, or Intellect, given they draw quite a bit of power from fel energy.

Interesting idea, demon possessing. I toyed for a while having demon forms that worked more like warrior stances than druid transformations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Yeah, read WoWWiki page as well (about Gul'dan returning, too).

I'd prefer his insanity to be explained, rather than deleted. But whatever. If you get to explain it properly, he wasn't insane, and that makes things even easier. Anyway, he's good dead, for now; in my opinion, of course.

The insanity is deleted so much as it changed ownership, from Illidan to Gul'dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

It's, no doubt, a relationship that has a lot of potential, but I think Illidan is done with Malfurion. I would like to see more about Tyrande and the Watchers, after what she did, but aside from that, Illidan cut off with the night elves at TFT, and I think any of the 2 sides want to recover that relationship.

I see it as begrudgingly help. Like they don't want anything to do with each other, but are forced to. Illidan would be like his old self. He doesn't care so much for the goal of helping Ysera but that it would gain him acceptance and respect. He's doing it for the power.

I think the Watchers need to be explained as well. They really just disappeared after TFT. I'm toying with Ravine of Shadows having an area that was a sanctuary for the Watcher, but it got corrupted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

You could try with some place you could later relate to the dream. For example:

-Stonetalon Oracle: Those caves are empty now that Medivh went into retirement, and I suspect they are a pretty powerful place.
-Empty zone between Silithus, Un'Goro Crater, Thousand Needles and Feralas: Anything could be there.
-Winterspring coasts: I used this for my idea, including the missing port-city of Nendis around. It's near the base of Hyjal, so there could be tunnels into Barrow Deeps and the Watchers' prison.

Oracle's Cave: I have this as a zone in my Emerald Dream expansion, but it serves a much different role. In the very deepest caves agents of the Nightmare are trying to build a new body for Archimonde using the power of the Caves. Also, some weird mage guy who can send you into your own mind is there to provide the setting for a dungeon and raid

Empty Zone: Anything could be there, true. But I have trouble think of a reason why they would be there.

Winterspring Coast: Basically the same reason as the Empty Zone. With how I constructed the Demon Hunter class, it would seem weird to have them be in the real world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

But your idea about the new demon hunters being people trapped in the nightmare is pretty good, too; although I would prefer the DHs have nothing to do with the dream, btw xDDD.

Thank you

Since Demon Hunters are rooted in Night Elven heritage, I thought it was a good fit for them to be with the Emerald Dream, another major part of Night Elven culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Omg! The Illidari are awesome. I would love to play as a member of the Illidari, and even more if I did with the old W3 Illidari, the ones that were really great, better than the current ones.

I suppose I should clarify. The War 3 Illidari are cool, but I don't like what they became in BC. That is, raid bosses.

Mana healing would be interesting. I wanted to give Demon Hunters healing because there's a need for healers. In the end, they ended up be rather like Shamans; a melee tree, a spell tree, and a healing tree.

At this point, I'm trying to work out if they would share itemization with shamans or druids. I don't want them wearing mail, but I could concede that. They have to use swords, as far as I'm concerned, so if they were implemented there would need to be a lot of caster swords (Shamans or Druids with swords are also cool to think about). Also, I'm trying to decide if they should be AP from Agility, given their reputation or speed, or Intellect, given they draw quite a bit of power from fel energy.

Interesting idea, demon possessing. I toyed for a while having demon forms that worked more like warrior stances than druid transformations.

My idea is that they're speed warriors. They're melee, but their style looks more like if they were ranged, cause they move and attack, making their enemies hard to hit them if they don't come close to them.

The mana siphoning thing would be a new ability developed with the new generation, based on siphoning power to share it with your team, instead of hungering for power for yourself.

Finally, the demon possession thing works similarly to warlock's. You enslave demons, but instead of summoning them, you let them posses you, taking control of them later and absorbing their powers. Pretty much what Meryl showed us at the comic, but with more than one demon (Anyway, I had this idea from long ago, don't think it just occurred to me because of Meryl ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

The insanity is deleted so much as it changed ownership, from Illidan to Gul'dan

Still, it would need a good elaboration on how Gul'dan made him go insane. It mustn't feel forced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

I see it as begrudgingly help. Like they don't want anything to do with each other, but are forced to. Illidan would be like his old self. He doesn't care so much for the goal of helping Ysera but that it would gain him acceptance and respect. He's doing it for the power.

I think the Watchers need to be explained as well. They really just disappeared after TFT. I'm toying with Ravine of Shadows having an area that was a sanctuary for the Watcher, but it got corrupted.

I still don't find anything profitable for Illidan inside of the Dream :S.

As for the Watchers, they should have already forgot Illidan, and return to focus on the other criminals all along Kalimdor. With the new factions around, I guess they just become another war force, being tasked with military actions and having less work with criminals. They're probably still down there, guarding their prisoners, and some of them could be around the surface, acting as the "police"; or perhaps not, due to Tyrande incident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Oracle's Cave: I have this as a zone in my Emerald Dream expansion, but it serves a much different role. In the very deepest caves agents of the Nightmare are trying to build a new body for Archimonde using the power of the Caves. Also, some weird mage guy who can send you into your own mind is there to provide the setting for a dungeon and raid

Empty Zone: Anything could be there, true. But I have trouble think of a reason why they would be there.

Winterspring Coast: Basically the same reason as the Empty Zone. With how I constructed the Demon Hunter class, it would seem weird to have them be in the real world.

I would use the Oracle Cave as CoT 2. Instead of the past, you travel to "visions" .

Empty Zone could be affected by the Dream somehow. Dunno.

Winterspring Coast fits perfectly, imo, being so near

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Thank you

Since Demon Hunters are rooted in Night Elven heritage, I thought it was a good fit for them to be with the Emerald Dream, another major part of Night Elven culture

Illidan didn't believe in the Dream (there's even an in-game book about that *hilarious*). If they start there, I wold find it hard to relate them with demons; of course, if there aren't demons around the ED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

I suppose I should clarify. The War 3 Illidari are cool, but I don't like what they became in BC. That is, raid bosses.

Having it happened before TBC would give the oportunity to explain Illidan and co.'s further downfall, or at least hive hints to what's going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Indeed.

Also, text walls are cooler when they are full of quotes xDDD .

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

My idea is that they're speed warriors. They're melee, but their style looks more like if they were ranged, cause they move and attack, making their enemies hard to hit them if they don't come close to them.

The mana siphoning thing would be a new ability developed with the new generation, based on siphoning power to share it with your team, instead of hungering for power for yourself.

Finally, the demon possession thing works similarly to warlock's. You enslave demons, but instead of summoning them, you let them posses you, taking control of them later and absorbing their powers. Pretty much what Meryl showed us at the comic, but with more than one demon (Anyway, I had this idea from long ago, don't think it just occurred to me because of Meryl ).

I think the move and attack think is a nice addition, fits the class very well.

The demon possession sounds like a fusion between warlocks, in that you summon the demon, and druids, in that you change your form, basically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Still, it would need a good elaboration on how Gul'dan made him go insane. It mustn't feel forced.

You could think of Gul'dan as an insanity causing tumor. It hadn't spread, so when removed the insanity was lifted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

I still don't find anything profitable for Illidan inside of the Dream :S.

There's a way for him to be redeemed and in all likelyhood become more powerful. I think that's enough for Illidan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

As for the Watchers, they should have already forgot Illidan, and return to focus on the other criminals all along Kalimdor. With the new factions around, I guess they just become another war force, being tasked with military actions and having less work with criminals. They're probably still down there, guarding their prisoners, and some of them could be around the surface, acting as the "police"; or perhaps not, due to Tyrande incident.

I agree. It wasn't the individual prisoner really that was important to them

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

I would use the Oracle Cave as CoT 2. Instead of the past, you travel to "visions" .

Empty Zone could be affected by the Dream somehow. Dunno.

Winterspring Coast fits perfectly, imo, being so near

Ya, my Oracle's Cave is basically like that with an extra dungeon to show just why we would be there in the Nightmare expansion

As for Winterspring Coast, it fits perfectly for your idea. Mine, not so much

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Illidan didn't believe in the Dream (there's even an in-game book about that *hilarious*). If they start there, I wold find it hard to relate them with demons; of course, if there aren't demons around the ED.

Perhaps a sequel [The Emerald Dream: Not All Its Cracked Up to Be]?

In my ED expansion, you'll find plenty of Demons, but I can see where your concern comes from

Having it happened before TBC would give the oportunity to explain Illidan and co.'s further downfall, or at least hive hints to what's going to happen.

Suff like that. Mo'arg could serve for crafting, for example. Sayaad and Shivarra could have seduction abilities, to confuse the enemy (Slaanesh style). Others like Felbeasts could give abilities like sucking magic, while Infernals could give immolation. Voidwalkers could give spiritual form, so the attacks make less damage. You get the idea.

It could even end being a combo system, similar to that of DK's runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

You could think of Gul'dan as an insanity causing tumor. It hadn't spread, so when removed the insanity was lifted.

Well, it's an interesting plot twist, but I'd still prefer if they explained why and how he went insane like that. If it was Gul'dan, it would need more than some mentions in-game.

Anyway, I wouldn't discard Gul'dan having influence on Illidan. I don't like it being that much, but a bit would be nice. After all, he's able to whisper through it and give "hints" as well as "information".

Who knows what did the demons of the Tomb of Sargeras to Gul'dan, to have his spirit trapped inside his own skull like that. Deathwing was too interested in the artifact, imo. Too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

There's a way for him to be redeemed and in all likelyhood become more powerful. I think that's enough for Illidan

Dunno, would need elaboration. Does Illidan really want to redeem to anyone's eyes? I'm unsure about that :S. It doesn't fit his personality, so it would need elaboration on why he thinks like that now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

I agree. It wasn't the individual prisoner really that was important to them

One of the roles they could take out could be watching over the demon hunters. What if, for example, they had more demon hunters imprisoned down there, at Barrow Deeps prison? They could have watched for the demon hunters all these years, waiting for them to become too powerful and tainted to imprison them for the security of Azeroth or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Ya, my Oracle's Cave is basically like that with an extra dungeon to show just why we would be there in the Nightmare expansion

As for Winterspring Coast, it fits perfectly for your idea. Mine, not so much

Oracle Cave could work as visions of the future, or just parallel visions. The same as CoT, but without the "we're changing the past events!!" thing.

Or, well, could be related to CoT, being both explained as you never changing the timeline, just keeping the result to avoid imbalances or something.

And yeah, ED is the greatest choice for your idea, just because they were, well, trapped inside the Dream .

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Perhaps a sequel [The Emerald Dream: Not All Its Cracked Up to Be]?

In my ED expansion, you'll find plenty of Demons, but I can see where your concern comes from

Having it happened before TBC would give the oportunity to explain Illidan and co.'s further downfall, or at least hive hints to what's going to happen.

Exactly, that's the point of it all. Arthas LK was developed at Acherus, and I'd like Illidan to get the same treatment, no matter be it perhaps too late. It's never late, it doesn't matter we already killed him. His background is still interesting, and it should be revisited in case we want to follow his steps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Much easier to read, in my opinion

Indeed xDDD.

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

Suff like that. Mo'arg could serve for crafting, for example. Sayaad and Shivarra could have seduction abilities, to confuse the enemy (Slaanesh style). Others like Felbeasts could give abilities like sucking magic, while Infernals could give immolation. Voidwalkers could give spiritual form, so the attacks make less damage. You get the idea.

It could even end being a combo system, similar to that of DK's runes.

That brings me to my biggest dilemma; the resource system for Demon Hunters. I don't think they should use an existing system, but I can't think of anything too great. I had an idea where it was basically reverse Runic Power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Well, it's an interesting plot twist, but I'd still prefer if they explained why and how he went insane like that. If it was Gul'dan, it would need more than some mentions in-game.

The current explanation for his insanity is that he cracked under the pressure of the threat of Kil'jaedin after Arthas beat him. But personally, I don't like that explanation. The guy spent 10,000 years underground under orders from his brother, and it barely changes him, but he loses a swordfight and that drives him insane? Doesn't click in my opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Anyway, I wouldn't discard Gul'dan having influence on Illidan. I don't like it being that much, but a bit would be nice. After all, he's able to whisper through it and give "hints" as well as "information".

The Gul'dan thing is a really just a way for me to get rid of the way he was treated in Burning Crusade, which I really didn't like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Dunno, would need elaboration. Does Illidan really want to redeem to anyone's eyes? I'm unsure about that :S. It doesn't fit his personality, so it would need elaboration on why he thinks like that now.

If he's redeemed then people won't try to kill him Its not the redemption so much as the benefits that come with it that he's after

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

One of the roles they could take out could be watching over the demon hunters. What if, for example, they had more demon hunters imprisoned down there, at Barrow Deeps prison? They could have watched for the demon hunters all these years, waiting for them to become too powerful and tainted to imprison them for the security of Azeroth or something.

That's an interesting idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Oracle Cave could work as visions of the future, or just parallel visions. The same as CoT, but without the "we're changing the past events!!" thing.

Or, well, could be related to CoT, being both explained as you never changing the timeline, just keeping the result to avoid imbalances or something.

In my idea, they aren't so much visions of the future, as much as they are Nightmares. Like that story in the manga where the leaders had Nightmares which were twisted versions of reality. I also would like to see some insanely abstract mind creature things. It basically takes a lot of limitations off as far as creature and level design goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Exactly, that's the point of it all. Arthas LK was developed at Acherus, and I'd like Illidan to get the same treatment, no matter be it perhaps too late. It's never late, it doesn't matter we already killed him. His background is still interesting, and it should be revisited in case we want to follow his steps.

Well, in my idea Illidan mentors you, as well as gives you warnings. Basically, he's learned from his mistakes and he passes on those lessons.

That brings me to my biggest dilemma; the resource system for Demon Hunters. I don't think they should use an existing system, but I can't think of anything too great. I had an idea where it was basically reverse Runic Power.

Yeah, something like that could work. Similar, but different, s they don't look the same unless you start comparing them exhaustively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

The current explanation for his insanity is that he cracked under the pressure of the threat of Kil'jaedin after Arthas beat him. But personally, I don't like that explanation. The guy spent 10,000 years underground under orders from his brother, and it barely changes him, but he loses a swordfight and that drives him insane? Doesn't click in my opinion

Well, I would explain his insanity in the Demon Hunter starting zone. You'd start with sane Illidan, and end with TBC Illidan.

Perhaps, he could have had a glimpse of Kil'jaeden's plans, and thus become paranoid and secluded himself inside of the Black Temple. Whatever, is he really insane at TBC? He acts with rage when he discovers Akama's betrayal, but anyone would act like that. The only out-of-place phrase during the fight is when he gets surprised Maiev is around. Like if you had forgotten you had imprisoned her, man.

Aside from that, Illidan isn't that out of place. I'd rather say he left the command to his commanders, that started to kick asses just for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

The Gul'dan thing is a really just a way for me to get rid of the way he was treated in Burning Crusade, which I really didn't like.

Which wouldn't be needed if you explain the other way; at least at my idea .

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

If he's redeemed then people won't try to kill him Its not the redemption so much as the benefits that come with it that he's after

Illidan is Illidan. He has his own style, and doesn't need to be redeemed, just becuase of thinking differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

That's an interesting idea.

Yeah, well, there should be more demon hunters around, and I guess they had more dangerous prisoners down there at the Barrow Deeps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

In my idea, they aren't so much visions of the future, as much as they are Nightmares. Like that story in the manga where the leaders had Nightmares which were twisted versions of reality. I also would like to see some insanely abstract mind creature things. It basically takes a lot of limitations off as far as creature and level design goes.

Well, the current Oracle could go nightmare and summon nightmarish visions, why not .

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Well, in my idea Illidan mentors you, as well as gives you warnings. Basically, he's learned from his mistakes and he passes on those lessons.

Again, no need of mistakes from the past. He hasn't make anything bad! (well, more or less, but you understand what I'm saying )

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

Yeah, something like that could work. Similar, but different, s they don't look the same unless you start comparing them exhaustively.

My idea was basically energy, and using energy charged up these rune-esq things I called Nightmares which were used for more powerful things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Well, I would explain his insanity in the Demon Hunter starting zone. You'd start with sane Illidan, and end with TBC Illidan.

Better an explanation of his insanity then ignoring the character altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Which wouldn't be needed if you explain the other way; at least at my idea .

But end result is the same, which is the part I don't like. Illidan was one of my favorite characters in Warcraft 3 if not my single favorite(bias FTW), and I don't think the role of a raid boss suits him. This is my way of saving Illidan, plus at the same time introducing Demon Hunters. I'm killing two bird with one stone, in a way

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Illidan is Illidan. He has his own style, and doesn't need to be redeemed, just becuase of thinking differently.

He's not thinking differently so much as thinking intelligently.

Sorry I took so long to finish this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Yeah, well, there should be more demon hunters around, and I guess they had more dangerous prisoners down there at the Barrow Deeps.

Now that I think about it they could have all sorts of new villains or even heroes down there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Again, no need of mistakes from the past. He hasn't make anything bad! (well, more or less, but you understand what I'm saying )

He's learned not to absorb ancient demonic artifacts without checking for warlocks first

He's also learned to be more secretive. If he had made the new Well of Eternity and nobody found out it was him, he wouldn't have been imprisoned. Things like that

That would be awesome, and Illidan would get all the respect he deserves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

But end result is the same, which is the part I don't like. Illidan was one of my favorite characters in Warcraft 3 if not my single favorite(bias FTW), and I don't think the role of a raid boss suits him. This is my way of saving Illidan, plus at the same time introducing Demon Hunters. I'm killing two bird with one stone, in a way

I wonder... what if Illidan did simply not die at the Black Temple Summit? What if he faked his own death to escape Kil'jaeden?

Then, somehow, he recovered his sanity.

Yeah, merely a setback, but it's not that bad of an idea, nope?

Well, you pretty much did that xDDD.

And yeah, I'd like to save him somehow, too. I don't know if it would fit with my starting zone, unfortunately. I would like the Demon Hunters to start like evil guys, who become good later; just as DKs.

Just because being evil is awesome cool .

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

He's not thinking differently so much as thinking intelligently.

Sorry I took so long to finish this

If you portray it like that, then yeah, it's everything fine.

And nah, don't worry about it. We can have let the topic sleep a bit, but I'm sure we'll be able to return to our ideas soon, and post them until we have no more (I was late in answering, too, xDDD).

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

Now that I think about it they could have all sorts of new villains or even heroes down there.

If we suppose there were way more demon hunters during the WotA, well, it's no doubt they should be down there. Also, I'm sure the Watchers captured more evil races around, races I'm sure Tyrande wouldn't have freed in any way; like satyrs, and night elf warlocks and mages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon

He's learned not to absorb ancient demonic artifacts without checking for warlocks first

He's also learned to be more secretive. If he had made the new Well of Eternity and nobody found out it was him, he wouldn't have been imprisoned. Things like that

Yeah, he could just get some secretive attitude now. Before, he did that because he wanted to be recognized, and because he wanted to impress Tyrande. Now, he has nor people neither girl to impress.

__________________

Metzen: They are one of the ancient races of Northrend that we haven't spoken of before... because we hadn't made them up before. (laughter)

To be honest, I would most certainly use Loramus Thalipedes as one of Demon Hunters faction major trainers and NPCs... He is still in Azshara, surrounded by his 3 felpups and as it seems to me, only true current Azerothian demon hunter. He was the first demon hunter we encountered and that whole chain was truly special, especially that forging of unique weapon and the idea of Razelikh and his minions being tied to the earth itself... I would like to read his entire story.

That would be awesome, and Illidan would get all the respect he deserves.

Those characters definitely deserve novels of their own, but the only problem is that the spotlight isn't on the anymore. Nowadays it seems Blizzard wants all their novels and such to led into upcoming content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

I wonder... what if Illidan did simply not die at the Black Temple Summit? What if he faked his own death to escape Kil'jaeden?

Then, somehow, he recovered his sanity.

Yeah, merely a setback, but it's not that bad of an idea, nope?

Well, you pretty much did that xDDD.

And yeah, I'd like to save him somehow, too. I don't know if it would fit with my starting zone, unfortunately. I would like the Demon Hunters to start like evil guys, who become good later; just as DKs.

Just because being evil is awesome cool .

Maybe Maeiv just didn't kill him? Like she meant to and thought she did, but really didn't.

My idea is sorta 'merely a setback' but with a twist - the twist being he actually did die

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

If you portray it like that, then yeah, it's everything fine.

And nah, don't worry about it. We can have let the topic sleep a bit, but I'm sure we'll be able to return to our ideas soon, and post them until we have no more (I was late in answering, too, xDDD).

Err, umm, can't think of a response deeper than just agreeing with you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

If we suppose there were way more demon hunters during the WotA, well, it's no doubt they should be down there. Also, I'm sure the Watchers captured more evil races around, races I'm sure Tyrande wouldn't have freed in any way; like satyrs, and night elf warlocks and mages.

There could be all kinds of things down there just waiting to be dungeon bosses XD. Satyrs, warlocks, demons, demon hunters, there's a lot of possibilities

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami

Yeah, he could just get some secretive attitude now. Before, he did that because he wanted to be recognized, and because he wanted to impress Tyrande. Now, he has nor people neither girl to impress.