If the public has made anything clear, it's that it's ready to have
a healthy debate about government transparency.

Today, NOW with Alex Wagner decided to air the WikiLeaks “Collateral Murder” video (Warning: Graphic. Can be seen here) in a discussion of the Bradley Manning trial.

The video was released by WikiLeaks on April 5, 2010, making headlines across the world and turning the organization into a household name in the U.S.

It showed a military engagement on July 12, 2007 in which two U.S. Apache helicopters open fire, killing 12 Iraqis, including two employees from the Reuters news agency–Saeed Chmagh and Namir Noor-Eldeen.

A U.S. investigation into the incident concluded that no disciplinary action was needed.

While Manning’s leaks may or may not have harmed national security (the administration says they did, Manning supporters want to see proof) they revealed a side to U.S. actions overseas that the public is unused to seeing except on rare occasions. However, if the public has made anything clear, it’s that it’s ready to have a healthy debate about government transparency.

Alex was joined by activist and courtroom fixture Clark Stoeckley and Salon’s David Sirota for the conversation. Manning faces 21 charges including “aiding the enemy” which carries a life sentence. He has already pleaded guilty to 10 of the lesser charges.

Army judge Col. Denise Lind is scheduled to deliver her verdict at 1pm ET Tuesday.

Video: What will be the effect of the Manning verdict?

Closed captioning of: What will be the effect of the Manning verdict?

>>>edward
snowden
may be in the spotlight, but according to multiple sources, at
1:00 p.m
. eastern tomorrow, army judge
deniselind
is expected to deliver her verdict in the military trial of
bradleymanning
. the army private accused of giving 700,000
classified documents
to wikileaks. in closing arguments, the
defense lawyer
,
david
koons, said
manning
was a naive but brave and conscientious objector to the
war time
conduct of the
united states
. the defense made its case after the prosecution argued that
manning
had willingly given
classified information
to
al qaeda
and other enemies by posting the documents on the internet for all to see. aiding the enemy is the most serious of the 21 charges
manning
faces and carries with it a
life sentence
. the army private has already pleaded guilty to ten lesser offenses. ones that could put him in prison for 20 years. the outcome of
manning
's trial is sure to have repercussions for
edwardsnowden
. both men have ties to wikileaks whose founder, julian assange, published
manning
's leaks in
2010
and has aided snoweden in his flight from justice. while
snowden
's leaks triggered a massive debate over government sae surveillance,
manning
's military trial has commanded relatively little attention. the video are you about to see is graphic.

>>line them all up.

>>come on. fire!

>>i think i just drove over a body.

>>more to go? you can bring the rest of mine.

>>that's their fault for bringing their kids to battle.

>>that showed the killing of two reuters journalists in
2007
came to light as a result of
manning
's leaks after the military refused reuters' request to access it. in similar fashion,
manning
's trial has been subject to tight media restrictions. no cameras or
electronic devices
allowed in court and no official transcript has been made available. reporters are being subject to intensive searches upon entering the courtroom and are watched over by armed
military police
officer in the media filing center. joining us now from denver is salon columnist and best selling author,
david
ceroda, and
clark
stek ley.
clark
, are you one of the very few people that's been in the room as the
manning
trial has unfolded. can you tell us about the climate inside the courtroom and what you've seen so far?

>>well, it is a very tense climate in the courtroom right now. we just saw the wrapping up of closing arguments on thursday and friday. the prosecution took the entirety of thursday to make their arguments over seven hours. ashton fine repeated himself
over and over
to basically filibuster the courtroom and the press attention on thursday. so that the stories coming out were essentially just the arguments of the prosecution. and those arguments didn't really add up. he was trying to say that
bradley
was an anarchist, that he was trying to gain notoriety and fame, but the logic there doesn't add up as to why he would do this anonymously. the following day on friday we saw
bradley
's civilian lawyer present a very heartfelt case from the heart with no paper, not standing behind the podium, going directly up to
deniselind
and showing her the collateral murder video which we just saw there and telling her not to detach herself from what she's seeing like the gunners and the pilots in that video did on
july 12th
,
2007
.

>>clark
, i want to ask you, you were removed from the courtroom on friday. we know you are an activist. you had media credentials. there seemed to be a mix of media folks and activists in the courtroom. tell us about the dynamic there and why you were asked to leave the courtroom.

>>well, i'm not able to comment on that. i agreed to come on this show understanding that we would discuss
manning
and not my banning from the courtroom. but i can tell you this. i have written a letter to
deniselind
. i gave that to
david coombs
and he submitted that to her and she submitted that to the garrison commander. i am waiting to see whether i will be allowed back.

>>we have a tweet from "the new
york
times" reporter who's covering the
manning
trial. he says, in his tweet, creepy -- having armed military place in camo patrolling behind each row of reporters and looking over shoulders as we take notes on the
manning
trial today. is that the atmosphere in the courtroom?

>>well, i think this trial has had unprecedented case of censorship starting with the fact that no legal filings and no transcripts, official transcripts, were coming from the court. and this is very shocking. this is a trial about secrecy and they've emphasized the fact that they are keeping track of all
social media
. the messages coming out and we've had, yeah, actually armed mps standing behind us while we're tweeting, posting our stories, and it is definitely an environment that is very tense and it bobbles my mind that they would be so clamped down on
free speech
when this is a trial all about
free speech
.

>>yeah.
david
, i want to get your thoughts on the
manning
trial. because certainly the implications of this verdict are broad. the notion that
manning
could be convicted of aiding the enemy because he gave documents to an organization that then posted them to the internet. the interlinkage between the internet and aiding the enemy has vast repercussions for journalists in the future,
whistle blowers
, and people concerned about
civil liberties
.

>>absolutely. i mean the conflags of the idea that if you put something on the internet, that means you're giving it to the terrorists. you're essentially publishing it for the world to see. yes, there are some terrorists nft world. but the government's case is a case that's essentially would, i think, create a situation where journalists would have to worry, activists would have to worry,
whistle blowers
would have to worry, the average citizen would have to worry that if they put something on the internet the government can turn around and say if the government doesn't like it that putting -- the act of putting it on the internet is an act of aiding
al qaeda
. it is a ludicrous -- it sounds ludicrous but you are right, it has a potential legal ramifications to criminalize the act of blowing the whistle and the act of journalism.

>>david
, you've been writing about
national security
concerns and sort of where we are at this moment in time with both
snowden
and obviously the
manning
trial in the background. you've talk about
james clapper
and his behavior, if you will, on the stand. i'll read an excerpt by
james bamford
in the new
york
review of books. "of course the u.s. is not a totalitarian society and no equivalent of
big brother
runs it. still the
u.s. intelligence
agencies seemed to have adopted yore well's idea of
double think
. clapper said that his previous answer was not a lie. he just chose to respond had in the "least untruthful manner." you think about that wording and you hear what
clark
is telling us about military personnel standing over media at a trial that's been largely blocked from american eyes and ears, or global eyes and ears and there is an yore wellian sort of strain here.

>>absolutely. it is classic news speak. clapper is allowed to go before congress and to lie, blatantly lie to lawmakers who are trying to oversee the nsa. when he is asked a question about whether master surveillance is happening. there's no punishment for him or the government move to charge pergly for him. but they pursue
bradleymanning
and
edwardsnowden
so there is a complete
double standard
here. this old saying that says, they're public officials. that means we're supposed to know as much as possible about what they're doing and that's exactly what the
obama
administration i think is trying to prevent.

>>clark
, there is a lot of debate over what sort of punishment both
bradleymanning
and
edwardsnowden
should receive but the
public editor
of the "new
york
times,"
margaret sullivan
, reminds us back in march of what we have gotten in terms of information from these leaks. i will read her word. imagine if americans citizens never learned about the abuse of prisoners at
abu ghraib
. imagine not knowing about the brutal treatment of terror suspects and
u.s. governmentblack sites
or about the drone program that's expanding under
president obama
or the
bush administration
's warrantless wiretapping of americans. this is a world without leaks. there is a lot that we are debating right now that we wouldn't even have on the table to debate were it not for these leakers. do you think in the courtroom at least there is a successful attempt to paint
manning
as having done some sort of service in terms of the
national conversation
?

>>well, it's been very obviously sitting in this courtroom listening to the prosecution there's been no evidence of any harm whatsoever caused by these leaks. i have seen, however, great things come out of them. more accurate body counts. we have an idea of who in guantanamo is innocent and why we've been holding them for so long. arab spring, i believe, is a direct result from the
state department
cable leaks. none of these things have caused the u.s. security any harm whatsoever. as
david coombs
said, the government is saying the sky is falling. the sky is falling. but the fact is, the sky is not falling. he also used the analogy of the emperor has no clothes. what of i've seen in five years of the
obama
administration is a complete reversal of his
2008
campaign promises to protect
whistle blowers
where in fact
obama
has gone after more
whistle blowers
. i believe we're up to eight, maybe possibly nine now. that's triple of all other presidents combined.

>>david
, i want to bring you in on the subject of the administration and how they are moving and/or responding to all of this that's happening. we know attorney general
eric holder
outlined some new guidance for obtaining records of -- press records. we know that there is news that we are transferring two detainees in gitmo. there is just an amendment that failed in the house but certainly did not divide along classic
party lines
. you had
nancy pelosi
and
michele bachmann
voting against it. you had other sort of strange coalitions. is that evidence that this conversation is taking hold in
american society
, that we are debating and trying to perhaps reform some of these policies?

>>absolutely. i'm very encouraged by the bipartisan nature of the criticism of all of this that's happening right now. i think
clark
really alludes to what's really going on here. the
obama
administration is prosecuting people who are a political problem for the
obama
administration. they are not prosecuting people on the basis of
national security
concerns. the political problem that's what's raised by the
snowden
and by
manning
is the fact that the
national security
state is out of control and that embarrasses the
obama
administration.

>>well, it is certainly a conversation that we will continue to have. the verdict is expected tomorrow at
1:00 p.m
.