the one that i mentioned that comes across as everyone's favorite crazy aunt, i think is actually very sweet, and not very hateful. but no, in the same way that burlesque can be used to comment on feminine/gender rolls, so can drag, and one doesn't need to be an anti to do it. after all one can be attractive and smart, they aren't mutually exclusive. that said, there is a huge emphasis on beauty/sexuality for transwomen. quite honestly i have a ambiguous feeling towards the constant sexualization of t-girls. i know a lot of t-girls hate it, the jerry springer wave years back. my feeling is that is how these things start. this is my theory of the cultural assimilation of a minority other. it is what happens with all minorities. first the repellant alien stage, then it progresses to curiosity, then fetish/sex object, then, when that other becomes visible enough, the other is villified, and cast as villians, tricksters, then neutral, then friends, then as people. the first part of it is never really desirable, but in order for society at large, they need to go thru those steps to feel comfortable with someone that is "different." so while it might not be all that enjoyable to see nothing but sexualized images, if we take a broad view, visibility is raised, and the journey to being viewed by society slowly moves forward. but that is my theory. some people hate it, and i understand why. but my point isn't to say it's good. it's just that those are the steps as i see them. feel free to pick the theory apart. all theories should be tested to see if they hold water.

koffeewitch

Oct 7 2009, 01:10 PM

GT- That's really intriguing; I like the idea of different stages that seem to serve conflicting purposes, sometimes demonizing a given minority population and sometimes romanticizing aspects of them. I'll have to think that over for a few days and apply it to our populations that have gained more acceptance in the last 30 years or so to practice identifying the different stages you described.

BTW, I noticed several of you mentioning having anthropology majors in college (I also started out as an anthro major). I remember being furious over the male bias in interpretting primate behavior. I remember a big deal being made out of the "prostitution" theory. (I wish I remembered if this occured in orangotans or chimps, etc). Anyway, a scientist observed a male and female primate finding the same piece of food. The primates had sex, and the female took the food. This was interpretted as her bartering with sex/prostituting herself. Now wait a minute, here. IF the male had taken the food first after sex, we all know that it would be interpretted as him displaying dominance over her. Fucking her. He wouldn't be whoring himself for her pleasure he'd be showing her who's boss. And these people call themselves impartial scientists?

angie_21

Oct 8 2009, 09:42 PM

wow, I can't keep up with everything here! awesome.

I found in most of my history classes that Candian history was portrayed as collective in terms of gender. Everyone was a part of it, or at least, everyone European was. Our courses didn't focus on the names of leaders so much as movements and events that whole gorups of people, male and female, were involved in. A much better reflection of reality, I think. When we moved to European history, well, I was lucky to have an awesome teacher who actually cared about what he was teaching us about. We learned about the men and women of the french revolution, male and female monarchs, and the importance of women during the world wars. Other than suffrage and feminism, gender didn't play a huge role in most topics we covered. Racism and ethnocentrism, however, those things still exist in our textbooks and still need to be addressed. Or maybe that was just the way I saw it. And if there was ever sexism in my classrooms, it was the teachers preferring female students under the assumption that we were better behaved and harder working. Some female teachers were downright rude to the boys in my classes.

Same thing for anthropology, I was again lucky - our department had a lot of female instructors and everything we learned was either balanced, or sometimes even more feminist focused than I was comfortable with, I mean, after a while the point can be overstated. We also spent a lot of time talking about old and outdated anthropological theories and how they were ethnocentric and gender-centric. I mean, it sounds like a lot of the stuff you were taught, koffeewitch, were theories in vogue before feminist anthropology of the 70s and 80s. Maybe again, I've been lucky. Maybe Alberta isn't as backwards as I think!

I am avidly reading about the transgendered issues people are discussing here, but due to a lack of knowledge on the topic I don't have much to contribute. Please keep writing, though, it's very informative!

koffeewitch

Oct 16 2009, 10:18 AM

angie21 - AH, as I've said I think Canada is a wonderful place in so many ways. The particular antrhopological theory I was talking about was in the news again just some months ago unfortunately. I was in college during the 1990s and I thought that theory was too archaic for 1995, let alone having to hear MORE research on this topic AGAIN. Now granted, it could have just been a slow news day and one of the reporters was trying to start a controversy.

angie_21

Oct 17 2009, 01:19 PM

QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Oct 16 2009, 09:18 AM)

angie21 - AH, as I've said I think Canada is a wonderful place in so many ways. The particular antrhopological theory I was talking about was in the news again just some months ago unfortunately. I was in college during the 1990s and I thought that theory was too archaic for 1995, let alone having to hear MORE research on this topic AGAIN. Now granted, it could have just been a slow news day and one of the reporters was trying to start a controversy.

Sometimes I get so mad at how dumb Canadians can be, it's nice to be reminded of what's good about our country, too.

I'm always wary of new reports on science studies. Newspaper writers couldn't srting two concepts together coherently even if they did understand what they were reporting on. And most of the time they clearly don't understand it. They jump on easy, controvesial parts of the study that will make headlines, like comparing primate interaction to prostitution. I took my anthropology undergrad courses around 2002-2005, and I think it does take a while for older professors to catch on to the newer studies and theory. We had a lot of young, idealistic profs in my department, too.

Injustice at Every Turn is a new report on the discrimination facing trans persons today. An interesting & infuriating read.

anarch

Feb 9 2011, 01:40 AM

Thanks for linking that, aural. Good to have that stuff documented.

BruceLear

Aug 26 2014, 01:33 AM

QUOTE(mumblestutter @ Oct 1 2009, 09:09 PM)

nice thread! this may or may not be totally coherent b/c i may or may not be more than half a sleep right now, but here goes. gender is totally a cultural thing. activities and preferences that are associated with being masculine or feminine arbitrary. things that are considered "masculine" or "feminine" can change over time, or be assigned to different gender categories by different cultural groups.

the simplest example i can think of here is the "pink is for girls, blue is for boys" convention. there's no reason why a person should have innate attraction to these colors based on their sex. children are rewarded positively for modeling "gender appropriate" behavior and so often comply with convention. even children of gender neutral parents will receive positive feedback for modeling gendered behavior at school and around friends.

the "pink/blue" dichotomy did not emerge until the mid 20th century. before then powdered blue was the color for little girls and red was the color for little boys! pretty much the opposite as it is now. you can see this in early disney heroines like alice & sleeping beauty with their powder blue gowns.

i'm fascinated (and dismayed!) by the extent commercial enterprise now informs our personal concepts of gender. i think there may have been more rationality to gender concepts in the past, but now with television & mass media, people over wide distances can see the same definition of gender roles.

when it first hit the market, marlboro was a brand marketed as feminine & for women. later the company took a U-turn and decided to market their product at men creating the familiar marlboro man/cowboy killer imagery. there's NO reason why a cigarette should be feminine or masculine, but the campaign worked, resurrected a fading company, and created a lasting image of a "masculine" product.

jsmith, you mentioned a continuum of gender. have you ever read about alfred kinsey?

also, this american life produced a fascinating show where they interview two transgender children and their parents. it's fascinating to hear the children describe struggling with gender-identity at such a young age, as well as how their communities and parents react.

so, sorry for being a gigantic nerd. i love this topic & really did pare down what i had to say.

Well I think you have defined it in better manner..Bit old thread but really like your opinion..

BruceLear

Aug 27 2014, 11:09 PM

QUOTE(BruceLear @ Aug 26 2014, 01:33 AM)

nice thread! this may or may not be totally coherent b/c i may or may not be more than half a sleep right now, but here goes. gender is totally a cultural thing. activities and preferences that are associated with being masculine or feminine arbitrary. things that are considered "masculine" or "feminine" can change over time, or be assigned to different gender categories by different cultural groups.

the simplest example i can think of here is the "pink is for girls, blue is for boys" convention. there's no reason why a person should have innate attraction to these colors based on their sex. children are rewarded positively for modeling "gender appropriate" behavior and so often comply with convention. even children of gender neutral parents will receive positive feedback for modeling gendered behavior at school and around friends.

the "pink/blue" dichotomy did not emerge until the mid 20th century. before then powdered blue was the color for little girls and red was the color for little boys! pretty much the opposite as it is now. you can see this in early disney heroines like alice & sleeping beauty with their powder blue gowns.

i'm fascinated (and dismayed!) by the extent commercial enterprise now informs our personal concepts of gender. i think there may have been more rationality to gender concepts in the past, but now with television & mass media, people over wide distances can see the same definition of gender roles.

when it first hit the market, marlboro was a brand marketed as feminine & for women. later the company took a U-turn and decided to market their product at men creating the familiar marlboro man/cowboy killer imagery. there's NO reason why a ecig calleditaste vtr should be feminine or masculine, but the campaign worked, resurrected a fading company, and created a lasting image of a "masculine" product.

jsmith, you mentioned a continuum of gender. have you ever read about alfred kinsey?

also, this american life produced a fascinating show where they interview two transgender children and their parents. it's fascinating to hear the children describe struggling with gender-identity at such a young age, as well as how their communities and parents react.

so, sorry for being a gigantic nerd. smile.gif i love this topic & really did pare down what i had to say.Well I think you have defined it in better manner..Bit old thread but really like your opinion..

Definitely Canada has rich history and you can say one of the best place to live and spend quality life..

leolgn

Sep 15 2014, 12:47 AM

I'm pretty sickened by the glaring lack of prominently discussed women in history. It seems that if you want to learn about more prominent women who make/made big contributions, you have to look in the present. Today my Cell Bio instructor mentioned who the Nobel Prizes in Chemistry and in Medicine went to. In Chemistry, there were two men and one woman, and in Medicine, there were either 3 women, or 2 women and 1 man. I'm delighted to see these things, because it's proof against the naysayers that women are every bit as capable as men are in the scientific fields. I always spend my free time to watching animes or playing games, like bleach online from GoGames.