With Mediumism, Channeling, Spiritism, Séances, etc. one is not very likely to contact Buddhas, from what I understand. With this 'method' one is more likely to contact worldly spirits, Pretas, hell beings, etc. (it is said that channelers usually end up channeling worldly spirits who pose as Enlightened Beings).

Now if one has a high capacity for Dream Yoga or Astral Projection, it is said that one could contact Enlightened Beings and speak to them face to face in other dimensions. Although this isn't said to be fool-proof either. But at least in this case one is not allowing spirits to posses one's body like channelers do.

At the same time, in speaking with someone in the physical dimension there is also not necessarily any guarantee that we're dealing with an authentic teacher.

But anyway, I'd choose Dream Yoga practice (in fact, Dream Yoga is an important practice for the Completion Stage of Tantra) over performing Séances any day. Although I don't know what exactly you're referring to here.

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There are a couple of considerations here. Soliciting a guide from the spirit realm for help with mundane issues is one thing, and soliciting a guide for spiritual issues is another thing. Usually, people try to get help for things that are already set in motion. This is like trying to un-ring a bell or un-say what's already been uttered. Just keep in mind that beings in other dimensions, such as the spirit realm, are no more trustworthy than beings in our own realm. And as regards matters pertaining to wisdom, they are also just as confused as beings in our own realm.

In Buddhism you always ask - 'what does this mean in terms of my experience?' We work with our experiences. We want to find out what these experiences are like. We don't create objects or worship forms. We don't follow. We don't even follow a teacher really. We understand what a teacher says through working it out in our own experience. This working with experience doesn't mean we want to create new buddhist flavored experiences or New Age flavored experiences but like a scientist we want to figure experience out. What is it? When is it? How is it? And so on. You need the teachings, the transmission of the teachings from a realized teacher and a lot of inspiration. Then you don't worry about anything else.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Lhug-Pa wrote:With Mediumism, Channeling, Spiritism, Séances, etc. one is not very likely to contact Buddhas, from what I understand. With this 'method' one is more likely to contact worldly spirits, Pretas, hell beings, etc. (it is said that channelers usually end up channeling worldly spirits who pose as Enlightened Beings).

This seems to be the case. I wonder what Aleister Crowley would have to say about this.

There are personal dieties who reside on ones shoulders, I've been told this by a Rinpoche.You will find everything plus more in vajrayana that you would find in the western occult traditions, vajrayana is a magical tradition, it has all the so called low magic you will find in western traditions as well as all the so called high magic, ie: ceremonial / ritual magic, the system itself is a magical system with soteriological goals.Buddhists focus on the soteriological side and virtually completely ignore the " worldly " side and for the most part don't care about or care to know the occult and magical aspect of their tradition, in fact it is a treasure house of magic for those who are interested in such things, but then again the so called low magic rituals etc. are exactly the same as you will find in the western traditions. In my opinion this is because they are from a common origin as tantra spread throughout Persia etc.Anybody coming into vajrayana from the western magical traditions will instantly recognize this fact, as well as dare I say have a better understanding of the praxis from the get go as opposed to people coming to it who have not been exposed to or studied or practiced in the western traditions.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

Anything is possible when it comes to experiences. However it is important not to get carried away by the type of experience you are having. We want to know what experience is like - almost in a scientific way. It's not enough to take on experiences like pulling on a coat. We need to know what the coat is made of - what we are doing with the coat etc. So if there are deities on our shoulders then fine, but what does that mean in terms of understanding the nature of the experience 'deity on shoulder'? If we just become mesmerized by the magic then we won't have understood the origin of the magical display.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

In as much as magic and witchcraft are fundamentally based on an understanding of the 5 elements they can in fact lead towards real wisdom, as well as a connection to life and nature, these traditions are much much more earthy and grounding than Buddhism and so they may help somebody in that way also, this is the main reason I am also a witch in the western tradition as well as a Buddhist. Buddhism provides my soteriological p.o.v. and I've no doubt its wisdom of things as they are is 100% correct and completely whole, and it is a coherent living tradition, but I find buddhists to be a bit airy and spacey, whereas witchcraft grounds me and I need that because I'm very airy and spacey by nature. I'm not saying the western traditions will lead to liberation but I'll say that in some aspects they approach wisdom, since the elements are so fundamental to it. Now if someone diefies the elements and considers the elements as sacred this is approaching true wisdom, regarding the elements as pure, all as diety, well buddhism isn't the only system that does this. Nor is it the only system that that doesn't accept a creator god, or considers all phemonena as unborn, or sees the moment of initial " creation " of duality, the original split and " fall " into the wheel of samsara, nor is it the only system that sees light as being the subtle praxis and basis of corporeal manifestation, and manifestation as a progression from the subtle to the gross, nor is it the only system that sees integration / union of materiality and purity. Tantra weaves the sacred into the mundane like a loom, witchcraft is also a weaving. Buddhism goes all the way into things 100% but other traditions approach and understand quite a lot of things to some extent really. After 10 years of vajrayana study and practice I have realized that at least for me attaining wisdom by understanding the 5 elements on all levels is better than studying madhyamika forever or getting caught up in all the conceptual proliferation from the monastic machine and gradualist systems, I think nirvana is realized by thoroughly understanding samsara and the way to wisdom is through the earth and the elements, there's also tremendous joy to be found here and a deep feeling of connection and respect to life and ones environment, nature. I would say this has value. I think the systems that promote an understanding of the 5 elements are the most useful systems, such as dzogchen, bon shamanism, and vajrayana but dzogchen goes all the way into it, bon shamnism and western magical systems and witchcraft also have quite a lot of wisdom here. All things are made of the 5 elements including mind, all the world and experience is the 5 elements. Every atom contains the 5 elements. Approaching ultimate wisdom through wisdom of the 5 elements is an approach that retains the earths horizon in its absolute view, it's easier to find integration here, nothing is practical if it can't be integrated in ones experience, one isn't lost in space carrying around a huge cosmic concept on their back called " emptiness " and walking a tightrope of nihilism while trying to view the world and experience through a concept, I would ask how much good that is doing anybody. There is also tremendous, easy, natural, integration through wisdom of the 5 elements and this wisdom will lead directly to wisdom of the basis in an experiential, natural way. There are many ways of saying things or pointing towards something, getting caught up in terminology regarding the absolute nature of things is a very sad prison.

The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendenceof suffering.Knots tied on spaceare untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,completing all qualities of the stages of the pathsmay I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara

I'm not sure there is any other way besides devotion to the guru to realize the wisdom of the 'elements'. There are lots of tricks to acess the elements. Karma is the prison and buddha nature is the freedom... freedom to chose a rebith that is virtuous and beneficial.

Tarpa wrote:In as much as magic and witchcraft are fundamentally based on an understanding of the 5 elements they can in fact lead towards real wisdom, as well as a connection to life and nature, these traditions are much much more earthy and grounding than Buddhism and so they may help somebody in that way also, this is the main reason I am also a witch in the western tradition as well as a Buddhist. Buddhism provides my soteriological p.o.v. and I've no doubt its wisdom of things as they are is 100% correct and completely whole, and it is a coherent living tradition, but I find buddhists to be a bit airy and spacey, whereas witchcraft grounds me and I need that because I'm very airy and spacey by nature. I'm not saying the western traditions will lead to liberation but I'll say that in some aspects they approach wisdom, since the elements are so fundamental to it. Now if someone diefies the elements and considers the elements as sacred this is approaching true wisdom, regarding the elements as pure, all as diety, well buddhism isn't the only system that does this. Nor is it the only system that that doesn't accept a creator god, or considers all phemonena as unborn, or sees the moment of initial " creation " of duality, the original split and " fall " into the wheel of samsara, nor is it the only system that sees light as being the subtle praxis and basis of corporeal manifestation, and manifestation as a progression from the subtle to the gross, nor is it the only system that sees integration / union of materiality and purity. Tantra weaves the sacred into the mundane like a loom, witchcraft is also a weaving. Buddhism goes all the way into things 100% but other traditions approach and understand quite a lot of things to some extent really. After 10 years of vajrayana study and practice I have realized that at least for me attaining wisdom by understanding the 5 elements on all levels is better than studying madhyamika forever or getting caught up in all the conceptual proliferation from the monastic machine and gradualist systems, I think nirvana is realized by thoroughly understanding samsara and the way to wisdom is through the earth and the elements, there's also tremendous joy to be found here and a deep feeling of connection and respect to life and ones environment, nature. I would say this has value. I think the systems that promote an understanding of the 5 elements are the most useful systems, such as dzogchen, bon shamanism, and vajrayana but dzogchen goes all the way into it, bon shamnism and western magical systems and witchcraft also have quite a lot of wisdom here. All things are made of the 5 elements including mind, all the world and experience is the 5 elements. Every atom contains the 5 elements. Approaching ultimate wisdom through wisdom of the 5 elements is an approach that retains the earths horizon in its absolute view, it's easier to find integration here, nothing is practical if it can't be integrated in ones experience, one isn't lost in space carrying around a huge cosmic concept on their back called " emptiness " and walking a tightrope of nihilism while trying to view the world and experience through a concept, I would ask how much good that is doing anybody. There is also tremendous, easy, natural, integration through wisdom of the 5 elements and this wisdom will lead directly to wisdom of the basis in an experiential, natural way. There are many ways of saying things or pointing towards something, getting caught up in terminology regarding the absolute nature of things is a very sad prison.

I have been channelling for many years (at least 15) and I have realized this: You cannot ask someone outside of the New Age context about channelling, for they would colour it with their own beliefs. So, I accept and respect all of the opinions that were posted in this thread, but form the New Age point of view, channelling with the right being can be really rewarding and enlightening. I use this word ‘enlightenment’ with caution here, because Buddhism has another way of seeing things and what enlightenment is. For the New Age that has its roots in Theosophy, enlightenment is about expansion of consciousness and it approaches more the Hindu paradigm of coming closer to the Absolute.

What I mean then with all this is, that yes channelling cannot give you the kind of enlightenment that Buddhism teaches, cause it is based on another dogma and belief.

Pure Theosophy is and always was opposed to the practice of channeling or mediumism^ (although not necessarily to designated Oracles such as the Nechung Oracle, which is different than ordinary channelling or mediumism).

dharmagoat wrote:I wonder what Aleister Crowley would have to say about this.

Don't know. Was never a fan of his writings and style of Magic"k". "Aleister Crowley" was also into homosexual acts and was a racist:

"Aleister Crowley" wrote:"The doctor was a Bengali named Ram Lal Sircar, a burly nigger of the most loathsome type."

"...we [British] always somehow instinctively think of the Italian as a nigger. We don't call them "dagos" and "wops" as they do in the United States, with the invariable epithet of "dirty"; but we have the same feeling."

"We need then not be surprised by finding that its most notable representative was the renegade follower of Blavatsky, Annie Besant, and that she was charged by her Black masters with the mission of persuading the world to accept for its Teacher a negroid Messiah. To make the humiliation more complete, a wretched creature was chosen who, to the most loathsome moral qualities, added the most fatuous imbecility. And then blew up! This, then, is the present state of the war of the Three Schools. We cannot suppose that humanity is so entirely base as to accept Krishnamurti..."