Going veggie shrinks the brain

I know several related families that a Vegan by there religion. The first thing i notice is like half of them have dark circles under there eyes and
kinda saggy. They all seem pretty intelligent, yet not ....how shall i put this, not in a creative free thinking kinda of way. Especially the older
ones, there way of life might as well be set in stone. Half of the members of the families have never even tasted meat in there life.

I myself have thought of becoming a vegetarian till I stayed with one of the families for 2 days and had the worst cravings for meat ever. I dont
think i could ever do it, the cravings were way way too primal.

My thoughts...the vegans i have met are happy or not sad almost all the time. Yet they are ready to defend there opinions to the death. However i know
a McDonalds double qaurter pounder makes me want to roll over and keel over after i consume it lol, but is that really meat?

The point I recall you were making was that I had a "beef" with Vegans and Vegetarians and that this is a planned attack for the sake of personal
vengeance.

This is my only thread on the issue and I've been here since 2006. There is no pattern of attack, prosecutor. I suppose you believe I
was waiting all this time for such a study to come out and then spring into action?

Right.

You are not only being paranoid but dead wrong.

Perhaps your defensiveness was built from a pattern of attacks you either had directly or perceived against your lifestyle. In any event, I'm not
going to answer a condescending question about whether or not I wear leather (as if I don't know where leather comes from :lol

, discuss the
effectiveness of my debating skills that you don't appreciate, or delve into any other personal realm of my life that you want to continue to
speculate about with no real proof.

You don't know me...yet you're defensively asking me things as if you know them to be true already.

It's pointless.

As I said, I don't believe eating meat is wrong, you do.
You're not going to convince me otherwise with attacks, or personal photos of your tattoos which prove nothing to me other than you have one.

Originally posted by ganjar
I know several related families that a Vegan by there religion. The first thing i notice is like half of them have dark circles under there eyes and
kinda saggy. They all seem pretty intelligent, yet not ....how shall i put this, not in a creative free thinking kinda of way

I think that has more to do with being a slave to dogmatic religion, as opposed to being vegetarian.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Most people who successfully follow a vegetarian diet do research. You pretty much have to.

Agreed. Most of the true vegetarians that I know are more knowledgeable on the subject of nutrition than your average Joe.

If you are trying to show meat is a biological necessity, you arent. You are showing that in some sports, eating meat gives one a competitive edge.
So do illegal steroids. This does not make taking illegal steroids a biological necessity.

Not once did I mention meat as a biological necessity.

In case you just skimmed over my post, I'll provide the quote from my source once
again:

-Well planned vegetarian diets, particularly those including milk and/or eggs, can provide all essential nutrients for good health and for a high
level of sports performance.
*SNIP*
-More research is required!

Why you're on the defensive is beyond me. Really.

It makes taking steroids or eating meat a strategic decision if you are trying to achieve a certain end, in this case, a particular body composition
(for bodybuilding) or performance level in strength sports.

Once again, no where in either of the studies I provided was there any mention of body building. The first study(which was more of a debate that
included multiple studies) was to show supporting arguments for both sides of the Omnivore vs. Vegetarian debate, with an emphasis on
performance in strength sports. Why performance in strength sports? Because I train myself and others for strength, performance and fat-loss almost
daily, therefore, this emphasis relates to me.

As I pointed in my original post, you must do what you think is best for you and I will do the same for me and my clients.

Simply finding something that says meat gives an edge in some areas and then concluding that it is a necessity IS research, but it is not good
analysis of what has been found via research.

I really don't understand how you concluded that my post was to prove that meat is a necessity. Still, the information I provided are not just
"something" I "found", they are scientific studies and debates that are credible sources in the given field.

How you ended your post was much more in line with what research says. It really is a matter of choice. Humans can do just fine and live long
productive lives on a vegetarian diet as long as they are careful to ensure they get their needs met, which means planning and paying attention.

The same can be said for meat eaters. Eating meat can lead to long healthy lives if the person is careful about how they balance their diet and
ensure they do not overindulge.

I think that evolutionarily speaking, we are clearly omnivores, and as such eating meat is NOT a "sin" or deviant behavior for humans. In fact some
of the very best diets (in terms of longevity and health) do include meat, they are the calorie restrictive diets.

However, most of the people I know who are vegetarians are not doing so solely with the intent to increase their own life span, but rather to improve
the quality of their lives regardless of life span. They feel bad about eating meat. So they stop. If they are careful to get everything they need
nutritionally, they could very well see an increase in their lifespan over those who just eat anything and everything without being mindful of amount
and type of food.

I agree 100%. I hold no grudge towards vegetarians. One Strength coach that I model my own training methods after just so happens to be a
vegetarian. The dude is a beast and one of the best in the world.

Originally posted by PilgriMage
I do wonder why some of you have such a hostile attitude towards people with different diet than your own. If we simplifie this thing a bit, it's no
different than talking about how a lot of very fatty red meat on your diet could cause serious health problems. There would still be people who would
say those same "I still love my bacon and beef and I'm gona eat those ever"-things but not half as agressively as you do it in this thread (and
almost all threads concerning vegetarianism).

I agree.

The titles of all the articles on the subject were a bit sensational but I don't believe it warrants an aggressive reaction. B-12 deficiency can
shrink your brain, not being a vegetarian.

The study does say that there was brain shrinkage in those that participated who had a deficiency in B-12, the study also pointed to other things
(such as overeating and drinking) that can shrink your brain as well.

The biggest issue I see is that some people that do attempt to become vegetarian (myself included at one point) are either unprepared or too busy to
constantly make sure and balance it properly. If you start slipping up then you run the risk of B-12 deficiency (also anemia and inflammation of the
nervous system).

The article doesn't state anything about the mental prowess or intellect of those that experienced brain shrinkage, just that it occurred.

Originally posted by lee anoma
Perhaps your defensiveness was built from a pattern of attacks you either had directly or perceived against your lifestyle.

As I said, I don't believe eating meat is wrong, you do.
You're not going to convince me otherwise with attacks, or personal photos of your tattoos which prove nothing to me other than you have one.

Couldn't agree more. How many times have we seen this pattern here? Over and over.....and over.....its like everyone has their VictimVision™ 3D
goggles on.

That being said, if we are we are an in agreement that Murder is to deprive something of life against its will, then technically, harvesting and
killing a plant would be murder. The plant is technically alive even though there is no proof it makes conscious decisions. What about, say, a
clam?

Is it "right" when the sun and rain grow a beautiful tree, and "wrong" when a tornado rips its roots violently from the ground? A stretch I know,
but the point is, you can't have lived on Earth and not deprived something of life so you can live.

I have more than a few Vegetarian friends and I respect them and they're beliefs, but I think LeeAnoma makes a solid point here. There really is no
need to be so defensive. I will march on Washington alongside the Veggies for moral treatment of animals, but I can't pretend that death isn't a
necessary ingredient to life. Its a cold and sobering reality that I must accept.

Meat would be a necessity, but only if you didn't have easy access to other things that would supply you with B12 that we have in more industrialized
societies. For many in the world it is a necessity as they don't have the luxury of shopping in vegetarian stores or buying vitamins from a pharmacy.
Heck most Americans can't even afford healthcare so in a way you'd have to be relatively well off to afford most things involved in maintaining the
lifestyle.

Meat is the cheapest solution.

The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible
plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of
fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12.

Some people that think they are healthy vegetarians/vegans actually may not be.

People on diets low in B12, including vegans and some vegetarians, may be obtaining more B12 from reabsorption than from dietary sources.
Reabsorption is the reason it can take over 20 years for deficiency disease to develop in people changing to diets absent in B12.
vegsoc.org

I took your statement that your "friend summed it up quite nicely," combined with his conclusion (quoted above) and ended up with the belief that
that was the message you were intending to impart.

Although I may be wrong in this case, generally speaking, that would indicate some measure of agreement from you regarding his conclusion.

I dont think that is defensive. I just disagree with his conclusion, and I thought since you said he summed it up nicely, yours. If you do not agree
with his conclusion, then I only disagree with him.

[edit on 18-9-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Ok. I was possibly a bit misleading there. Oops. :p

To clarify, I only provided Dr. Berardi's comments and link as a summation of the latter study. It was not my intention at all to try and show that
meat is a biological necessity.

The focus of my post was on the first two links. I just happen to agree with Dr. Berardi on a number of subjects as he is a world-renowned sports
nutritionist and strength coach. While I do agree with his conclusions, I was not forcing an argument over the biological necessity of meat. I also
think that it's important to take his statement in the context of the article.

By saying "meat seems to be an essential part of the diet", I don't Berardi literally meant that it is a biolgical necessity. What he means is
that for optimal muscle gain and weight loss, meat is essential. He bases this on the study provided.

Most people have such horrible diets and know so little about nutrition that whether they eat meat is irrelevant. Can you be healthy without meat?
Yes. Can you be healthy with meat? Yes. Your body needs 3 macronutrients: protein, fat and carbs. Everyone in the modern world gets more than enough
carbs. Almost no one gets enough lean, high quality protein. Very few get enough good fats and far too many get too much bad fat. If you eat healthy
sources of macronutrients you are probably getting enough vitamins and minerals. All problems related to vitamin and mineral deficiencies in diets of
people who have access to a variety of less processed foods (the "civilized" world) come from a lack of information or understanding about dietary
needs. Vegetarian/vegan vs. meat-eater does not even enter the picture.

With that out of the way, I too have encountered numerous vegetarians and vegans with a pronounced holier-than-thou attitude. By contrast I've only
known one outspoken meat-eater. I believe that just like so many other aspects of life, people let their choices define them. Vegetarianism/veganism
goes from a matter of morals or just taste (yes there are people who simply don't enjoy meat, I too was shocked to find this out) to a social,
political, and economic statement. Groups like PETA take a dietary choice and turn it into a moral crusade and a way of life. If people can't even
agree to disagree about diet what hope is there for important issues?

For most people, just getting off of aspartame would be a miraculous start. Compared to aspartame, cane sugar is a superfood. Of course there's also
stevia but good luck selling someone on green tea with stevia over a diet coke.

Originally posted by EtSolveMundi
Almost no one gets enough lean, high quality protein.

I agree with your other points, but are you certain about this? Unless bodybuilding, an adult only requires around 60g of protein for healthy
maintenance. And even when bodybuilding, the body can only process a certain amount of protein so there's a limit - a point where protein intake is
most efficient. In the Western world, meat-eaters quite possibly consume too much protein, eating two or more servings of meat a day + plenty of dairy
and eggs.

It actually depends on your weight. I believe the current recommendations for an untrained individual is .8 g/kg of body mass. Now, you have to
understand that these numbers are based on what you need, to stay alive. There are numerous studies that actually show that athletes, such as
bodybuilders, need less protein than an untrained person. Thing is, there is a difference between needed protein intake and optimal protein intake.

Plus, there are plenty of other documented benefits of increased protein intake. Benefits that include an increase in
Thermic Effect of Food. Because you'll burn twice as many calories processing 1 gram
of protein, compared to 1 gram of carbs or fat, you can expect an increase in metabolic rate. This means a greater ability to burn fat.

You can't confuse needing protein to stay alive with optimizing protein intake to improve body composition(including fat loss). You may only
need a half of tank of gas to get from point A to point B going 55mph, but, if you wanna go 80mph, you might wanna fill 'er up some more.

By saying "meat seems to be an essential part of the diet", I don't Berardi literally meant that it is a biolgical necessity. What he means is
that for optimal muscle gain and weight loss, meat is essential. He bases this on the study provided.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem. Thats the whole point of discussion, so we can see each others point of view.

I would agree that for body building, and apparently strength training, meat consumption would give a competitive edge.

Meat would be a necessity...... For many in the world it is a necessity as they don't have the luxury of shopping in vegetarian stores or buying
vitamins from a pharmacy......
Meat is the cheapest solution.

Or you could just do eggs and dairy. Both provide B12 and meet the qualifications for a flesh free diet.

And, humanely raised eggs tend to be
cheaper per serving than even factory farmed meat. Although I was just reading that eggs also contain something that inhibits the B12 absorption.

Vitamin B-12 cannot be made by plants or animals[5] as only bacteria have the enzymes required for its synthesis. The total synthesis of B-12 was
reported by Robert Burns Woodward[6] and Albert Eschenmoser,[7][8] and remains one of the classic feats of organic synthesis.

Its actually produced by bacteria that colonize the animals. Very interesting. It shows how dependent we are on the bacteria that inhabit us.

Seriously, wouldnt worry about peoples bloated brains shrinking...you dont think they actually use all that grey matter up there do you? Perhaps they
people can get it to match their IQ size and not have it pumped up on 'cow burger steroids' to make them look smarter.

J/k.

People need to go with the diet that is best for them
Forcing any type of diet, in the end, isnt beneficial - your body knows what you need and are lacking...listen to it.

I do admit it is hard to listen when one doesnt eat healthy.
Cut out the fast food poisons and go organic. (I know I saw the Chinese Organic is bad thread...hey, worked for Adam and Eve and they lasted a few
hundred years.)

Clean up your insides, and then you can start to hear and respond to your own needs.
For me, a bit of fish goes a long way. (smoked sockeye salmon by the way.)

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