Incase you missed it from the latest email, why non-US Kickstarter have not been fulfilled:---------Why have Global pledge fulfillments been such a long time after the US ones? We understand that it sucks that those of you not in US are still waiting for your deliveries. The number of US pledges was in a large enough quantity to fill a container to ship directly to the US immediately. While the Global pledges were not sufficient to fill a container, the Way of the Fighter product was soon to be complete and with both pledges combined were enough to fill the container. At that time we made the decision to hold the shipment so that both shipments could be consolidated for shipping to their international hubs. We have received estimates that the ship with your pledges will be leaving port early October and then our distribution hubs will fulfill your pledges as quickly as possible. We apologize for the gap between the US and Global shipments. For future projects we will do everything we can to minimize that gap. -------------------Now I want to know everyone else's opinion on this, because honestly I think it's incredibly sneaky. I feel like the possibility of it being merged with another dispatch should have been outlined within the initial Kickstarter. The delay has been pretty substantial and to choose to delay an already late product by a months for a reason like this seems just underhanded, especially considering how long it took ND to come clean. Honestly I think I'd be more mad/disappointed but at this stage I have zero faith in ND as a company. Please do tell me your opinions on this however I would like a Civil discussion; backer betrayal or am I just jaded from everything going on with this and legends.

It's the sort of decision that makes perfect sense from a bean counters point of view. However for the customer who is emotionaly invested in the product its the kiss of death.

At the end of the day it is a toy and a luxury first world one , However having said that human nature being what it is people do not like delayed gratification and marketing should have known that and the cost saving in shipping has probally been vastly exceeded by the man hours required to firefight a pr nightmare.

It's the sort of decision that makes perfect sense from a bean counters point of view. However for the customer who is emotionaly invested in the product its the kiss of death.

At the end of the day it is a toy and a luxury first world one , However having said that human nature being what it is people do not like delayed gratification and marketing should have known that and the cost saving in shipping has probally been vastly exceeded by the man hours required to firefight a pr nightmare.

Yeah, couldn't have said it better myself. I think they made a mistake delaying telling people about it however, makes it seem that much more malicious. They must have known about this at least as long as US units were shipped. The notion would be fair and logical if it wasn't a year late and with that in mind I personally think the decision is unacceptable.

Now I think its also important to note that the project Funded at $30,000 but they got $339,724 in pledges. Now I understand that more pledges is more costs but at that stage, and with my above point? Well lets just say I hope the saving was worth it.

:edit: just been on the RRI kick-starter and holy:soda: people are not happy at all.

I think some of the "anger" on the RRI comments page is completely blown out of proportion. Some of the issues are warranted and SPM is dealing with them. Others are backers just being completely unreasonable. It doesn't help when you add some people posting that are just intentionally inflammatory and childish.

I get that SPM has to be careful with their spending and if holding back a shipment to merge with another makes the best financial sense, then I have no problem with that. My pledge is among the Canadian ones still to be shipped. Can't say I'm overly happy about the delay, but I understand. I will never be one of those backers in the comments page having a complete tantrum over SPM's decision to use the KS exclusive box instead of the retail box.... sheesh...

I think some of the "anger" on the RRI comments page is completely blown out of proportion. Some of the issues are warranted and SPM is dealing with them. Others are backers just being completely unreasonable. It doesn't help when you add some people posting that are just intentionally inflammatory and childish.

I get that SPM has to be careful with their spending and if holding back a shipment to merge with another makes the best financial sense, then I have no problem with that. My pledge is among the Canadian ones still to be shipped. Can't say I'm overly happy about the delay, but I understand. I will never be one of those backers in the comments page having a complete tantrum over SPM's decision to use the KS exclusive box instead of the retail box.... sheesh...

I know what you mean. In a way as well I feel like people spitting their dummy out of the box takes away from the real issues, such as what I mentioned in my OP. Frankly having as special box is preferable. I think I would care less about the delay if i wasn't so jaded by legends.

I've been part of KS that took several months to ship everything out- and my stuff was mispacked, so I had to wait until the end of all of it to get any of the things I pledged for.

Yeah- it sucks.

To be honest, this is the sort of thing that is happening ALL THE TIME behind the scenes (bean counting is important or your company can't keep making games). If Ninja Division weren't as up front as they are about it, all we would know is that fulfillment in different regions happened at different times- like a month later (which is true for a LOT of kickstarters, now that I think about it).

Really, any of the RRI hate is coming from people being irritated by the lateness of Legends- which is largely subjective because Sodapop have weekly scheduled updates that continually remind us that we don't yet have our cool stuff (been part of much later Kickstarters, but those had much worse communication).

I've been part of KS that took several months to ship everything out- and my stuff was mispacked, so I had to wait until the end of all of it to get any of the things I pledged for.

Yeah- it sucks.

To be honest, this is the sort of thing that is happening ALL THE TIME behind the scenes (bean counting is important or your company can't keep making games). If Ninja Division weren't as up front as they are about it, all we would know is that fulfillment in different regions happened at different times- like a month later (which is true for a LOT of kickstarters, now that I think about it).

Really, any of the RRI hate is coming from people being irritated by the lateness of Legends- which is largely subjective because Sodapop have weekly scheduled updates that continually remind us that we don't yet have our cool stuff (been part of much later Kickstarters, but those had much worse communication).

You know I'm not going to argue. Because even despite having my fair share of salt, I've always known legends was playing a part in it. Then again I don't necessarily think that excesses it or makes the salt any less valid you know. I mean I can't be the only one who doesn't buys into the "its okay having five kick-starters at once, each is independent and do not effect each other". At the end of the day that is never going to be completely true. Still like I said you are completely right.

If anything the fact that non-US Ninja supporters have been neglected LOOOONG before even Legends. Getting their products without paying double or triple the cost in postage and import charges has always been a problem. I think that has poured fuel on the flame that is the latested Development in RRI, more then anything really. As someone from the UK I feel like my custom is very much an afterthought. Which is annoying because I've been here since before SDE and remember a time when this wasn't the case. :c

Really, any of the RRI hate is coming from people being irritated by the lateness of Legends- which is largely subjective because Sodapop have weekly scheduled updates that continually remind us that we don't yet have our cool stuff (been part of much later Kickstarters, but those had much worse communication).

To be honest, I am less upset with Legends than I am with the RRI campaign. Legends was my first Kickstarter from ND/SPM (I purchased their other products from retail before knowing of KS). Since then I have backed three more of their projects plus Siege of the Citadel. Just looking through all of these campaigns there is undeniably communication issue including false statements (intentional or not, I don't know).

The "weekly updates" they spoke in the past of proudly keeping up with...when people started receiving their pledges found out they are missing items...their was no official update for ~3 weeks nor any presence (maybe one post that seems oblivious to the issue). With RRI the issue started when just one month before fulfillment of the pledges back in 2016 with updates stating everything is on schedule...we were told, oops that they were not. After that, I just started seeing these type of "mistakes" in their other campaigns. The update post made when Starfinder campaign started, stated that both Rail Raiders Infinite and Way of the Fighter were "done and delivering"...Rail Raiders Infinite digital PDF is still in layout and is expected by the end of the week. Sleeves are just being made now. Fairly small stuff. Way of the Fighters, the miniatures don't have molds yet. Their definition of "done and delivery" is very different from what seems to be works in progress still.

To be honest, I am less upset with Legends than I am with the RRI campaign. Legends was my first Kickstarter from ND/SPM (I purchased their other products from retail before knowing of KS). Since then I have backed three more of their projects plus Siege of the Citadel. Just looking through all of these campaigns there is undeniably communication issue including false statements (intentional or not, I don't know).

The "weekly updates" they spoke in the past of proudly keeping up with...when people started receiving their pledges found out they are missing items...their was no official update for ~3 weeks nor any presence (maybe one post that seems oblivious to the issue). With RRI the issue started when just one month before fulfillment of the pledges back in 2016 with updates stating everything is on schedule...we were told, oops that they were not. After that, I just started seeing these type of "mistakes" in their other campaigns. The update post made when Starfinder campaign started, stated that both Rail Raiders Infinite and Way of the Fighter were "done and delivering"...Rail Raiders Infinite digital PDF is still in layout and is expected by the end of the week. Sleeves are just being made now. Fairly small stuff. Way of the Fighters, the miniatures don't have molds yet. Their definition of "done and delivery" is very different from what seems to be works in progress still.

Not to mention that fact that I know a good part of me backed RailRiders at maximum pledge so I'd have something to tide me over waiting for Legends. I mean that's still something that's going to happen, but I just feel like Ninja Division are a) Bad at Kickstarters b) don't NEED to do Kickstarters and finally c) Don't actually realizes the actual amount of damage theses mistakes have made, especially to their longest and previously most adamant supporters. Remember when Arcadia Quest was first becoming popular and people over here was foaming at the mouths defending Ninja Division and their brand. Honestly if that had happened now, I don't think anybody would have given a :soda:.

As somebody in the UK being hit by the delays I think the initial delay allow them to ship way of the fighter in the same container was reasonable (if annoying) since they did do the extra work needed to ship from within the EU and save me customs fees,

what i'm a lot more disappointed with is the apparent dispatch of a second shipment to the USA before the EU shipment has left port,

it seems very odd that they can't find any space on an appropriate ship for our stuff while that can find space at much shorter notice for a ship to the USA

I'm sorry but I feel we have had legitimate reasons to complain. They have been lying to us for months. They told us in JUNE the product was ready to ship. The following was taken from the updates we received

June 30th "We have received word that Rail Raiders Infinite is packed and waiting at the manufacturer to be taken to the docks to be shipped."July 7th "Rail raiders met its appointed shipment on-dock in China and has left port last week." "International shipments to outside hubs left same time"July 29th "We are still working to get things moving as fast as we can!"Aug 5th "Good news everybody! (*best impressions all 'round). The cargo container with all your pledges arrived at dock and customs yesterday on the west coast." "Germany - Shipments will be received and distributed by Ulysses spiel. Pickup has been scheduled in china for shipment, shipping and transit times are not locked yet until they arrive at the Chinese port: UK shipments will be received and distributed by Gamesquest, and on the water before the end of the month. China shipments for Asian backers will come from Coyote games, on the water to distribution point by end of August Australia/NZ will ship from Aetherworks as soon at containers arrive, again, leaving before end of month. Canadian shipment info is currently to be determined We should have final details and better dates for you by end of week, so stay tuned for more info on Wednesday." "Target is the 15th, we are confirming, I thought it safe to say "end of the month"."Aug 8th "Remaining Global shipments are in final packing for transit - with expected dock dates to leave in 7-10 days."Aug 11th "The EU shipment is being consolidated with the Way of the Fighter print run, with container planned for leaving dock by August 25th. Australia and Asian Rail Raiders shipments are being picked up from factory while we are at Gencon next week to shipping out to distribution hubs. Expected ship date to Asian backers will be first week of September, Australian orders should start shipping by mid month, with final EU product going out to UK and Continental backers from distribution hubs by the 1st of October." "We are not in the business of breaking promises, there are thousands of backers waiting to get their pledges, and we are working, literally as fast as we can, now that we can touch your product, to get it out the door"Aug 26th "Global distributors products are on their way to port with the rest of the the rail raiders print."Sept 16th "We are scheduling pickups for this coming week for Asia, Australia and EU distribution points."Sept 23rd "Shipments have left factory - the have been picked up from factory"Sept 27th "Global hubs will be receiving their product for immediate distribution next month." "All product is at dock waiting on their respective ships, early info I got today was confirmation that transit would be ready, with tracking on the 30th"Sept 30th "Australia - est. Oct 11th following “GOLDEN WEEK” - both RRI, and WotF will be fulfilled. Time on water est. 14 days. Asia - est. Oct 11th following “GOLDEN WEEK” - both RRI, and WotF will be fulfilled by Coyote Games in Indonesia. Time on water est. 14 days. EU - est. Oct 11th following “GOLDEN WEEK” - both RRI, and WotF will be fulfilled by Game Quest in the UK. est. Time on water est. 28 days."Oct 13th "We have finally gotten confirmation on shipping, and will continue to bring details as soon as they are able to be confirmed."

Then they finally commented this on the 26th October

Shipments to the following regions have been arranged by their respective associate companies, and are one step closer to fulfillment:- Canadian pledge rewards are expected to reach the United States by the end of the month, after this, U.S. customs will process the shipment, then it will be delivered to us. From there, we aren't certain, but we will do what we must to prevent Canadian backers from paying additional fees for customs.- Australian pledge rewards are expected to arrive in Sydney by Nov. 4th. From there, customs will process the shipment, then it will be delivered to our associated fulfillment center and finally to you.- Southeast Asia, your pledge rewards are expected to arrive in an associated fulfillment center by Nov. 23rd. From there they will be delivered to you.Each of these regions may expect fulfillment to begin by the end of the year, if not much sooner. We are sorry about the delay, and looking forward to delivering your pledge rewards.EU English copy and UK backers, I am sorry. Our associate for your region is arranging your shipment, and I do not have an estimated time for fulfillment of your pledge rewards. I will notify you as soon as possible, regardless of my location or activity. I will let you know as soon as I know.

So you see this company has been lying constantly for months about the location of the product. Whether it was to cover a screw up somewhere by themselves or someone else it doesn't matter. They mislead their customers multiple times. That is a massive mistake. They need to sort themselves out or they are done as a business.

I'm sorry but I feel we have had legitimate reasons to complain. They have been lying to us for months. They told us in JUNE the product was ready to ship. The following was taken from the updates we received

June 30th "We have received word that Rail Raiders Infinite is packed and waiting at the manufacturer to be taken to the docks to be shipped."July 7th "Rail raiders met its appointed shipment on-dock in China and has left port last week." "International shipments to outside hubs left same time"July 29th "We are still working to get things moving as fast as we can!"Aug 5th "Good news everybody! (*best impressions all 'round). The cargo container with all your pledges arrived at dock and customs yesterday on the west coast." "Germany - Shipments will be received and distributed by Ulysses spiel. Pickup has been scheduled in china for shipment, shipping and transit times are not locked yet until they arrive at the Chinese port: UK shipments will be received and distributed by Gamesquest, and on the water before the end of the month. China shipments for Asian backers will come from Coyote games, on the water to distribution point by end of August Australia/NZ will ship from Aetherworks as soon at containers arrive, again, leaving before end of month. Canadian shipment info is currently to be determined We should have final details and better dates for you by end of week, so stay tuned for more info on Wednesday." "Target is the 15th, we are confirming, I thought it safe to say "end of the month"."Aug 8th "Remaining Global shipments are in final packing for transit - with expected dock dates to leave in 7-10 days."Aug 11th "The EU shipment is being consolidated with the Way of the Fighter print run, with container planned for leaving dock by August 25th. Australia and Asian Rail Raiders shipments are being picked up from factory while we are at Gencon next week to shipping out to distribution hubs. Expected ship date to Asian backers will be first week of September, Australian orders should start shipping by mid month, with final EU product going out to UK and Continental backers from distribution hubs by the 1st of October." "We are not in the business of breaking promises, there are thousands of backers waiting to get their pledges, and we are working, literally as fast as we can, now that we can touch your product, to get it out the door"Aug 26th "Global distributors products are on their way to port with the rest of the the rail raiders print."Sept 16th "We are scheduling pickups for this coming week for Asia, Australia and EU distribution points."Sept 23rd "Shipments have left factory - the have been picked up from factory"Sept 27th "Global hubs will be receiving their product for immediate distribution next month." "All product is at dock waiting on their respective ships, early info I got today was confirmation that transit would be ready, with tracking on the 30th"Sept 30th "Australia - est. Oct 11th following “GOLDEN WEEK” - both RRI, and WotF will be fulfilled. Time on water est. 14 days. Asia - est. Oct 11th following “GOLDEN WEEK” - both RRI, and WotF will be fulfilled by Coyote Games in Indonesia. Time on water est. 14 days. EU - est. Oct 11th following “GOLDEN WEEK” - both RRI, and WotF will be fulfilled by Game Quest in the UK. est. Time on water est. 28 days."Oct 13th "We have finally gotten confirmation on shipping, and will continue to bring details as soon as they are able to be confirmed."

Then they finally commented this on the 26th October

Shipments to the following regions have been arranged by their respective associate companies, and are one step closer to fulfillment:- Canadian pledge rewards are expected to reach the United States by the end of the month, after this, U.S. customs will process the shipment, then it will be delivered to us. From there, we aren't certain, but we will do what we must to prevent Canadian backers from paying additional fees for customs.- Australian pledge rewards are expected to arrive in Sydney by Nov. 4th. From there, customs will process the shipment, then it will be delivered to our associated fulfillment center and finally to you.- Southeast Asia, your pledge rewards are expected to arrive in an associated fulfillment center by Nov. 23rd. From there they will be delivered to you.Each of these regions may expect fulfillment to begin by the end of the year, if not much sooner. We are sorry about the delay, and looking forward to delivering your pledge rewards.EU English copy and UK backers, I am sorry. Our associate for your region is arranging your shipment, and I do not have an estimated time for fulfillment of your pledge rewards. I will notify you as soon as possible, regardless of my location or activity. I will let you know as soon as I know.

So you see this company has been lying constantly for months about the location of the product. Whether it was to cover a screw up somewhere by themselves or someone else it doesn't matter. They mislead their customers multiple times. That is a massive mistake. They need to sort themselves out or they are done as a business.

One Hundred and Ten percent this. This is why I'm so mad, this is why I'm no longer buying from the company.

Guys its not like you are missing out on a great, or even relevant, game. Its barely a game as it is, and I imagine that delayed shipping is saving SPM from a lot of angry reviews for a time.

Look at how little anybody in the US cares, how little talk buzz or attention this is getting. Its in retail now in europe where I live, and nobody picks it up.

The game being sh*t is beyond the point. I paid for it and being lied to and then delaying a project that's a year and a half late nearly, is a stain on a company which they should never be allowed to forget.

Honestly if the game is as bad as everyone says it is I'll take the models and make my own rules or make custom profiles for SDE. The point is I paid good money for this and legends and over two years later I've gotten nothing from either Kickstarter. Ninja divisions should he ashamed, but instead they just make a butt load of other Kickstarters and sell the undelivered stuff at retail before all other backers were fulfilled. Which again they specifically promised they wouldn't do, and then have the nerve to make the same claim on the Starfinder KS.

I seriously hope the money they saved on a single shipping container was worth it because I've been a loyal customer since day one and no more. I know I'm far from the only one. ----------Oh and, seriously my message sounds kind of aggressive but it's aimed entirety at the company. I'm certain your a great person so don't take any of this directed at you.

Guys its not like you are missing out on a great, or even relevant, game. Its barely a game as it is, and I imagine that delayed shipping is saving SPM from a lot of angry reviews for a time.

Look at how little anybody in the US cares, how little talk buzz or attention this is getting. Its in retail now in europe where I live, and nobody picks it up.

The kids enjoy playing the game. As that was the main reason for the purpose, I am quite content with the actual game itself.

That's the thing despite my above comment, I'm actually liking the game from what I've read online. I'm not expecting SDE or higher level of depth. I signed up for a "beer and pretzel" experience I can play for a an hour and a half, maybe waiting for the rest of my D&D group to show up, or when I'm at my Uni's Board and Card Game society (which I can only attended for a couple hours since I commute in). Its the fact that a six month kick-starter has become two years, and the aforementioned "Europeans don't count as real customers"