Trouble logging in?If you can't remember your password or are having trouble logging in, you will have to reset your password. If you have trouble resetting your password (for example, if you lost access to the original email address), please do not start posting with a new account, as this is against the forum rules. If you create a temporary account, please contact us right away via Forum Support, and send us any information you can about your original account, such as the account name and any email address that may have been associated with it.

They weren't IN North Korea, they were IN China ... the North Korean army guards crossed into China to arrest them for pointing their cameras at North Korea from China. I suppose the PRC is okay with the concept of such an "invasion" by North Korea :P

This whole thing is simply a game for the North Korean leadership in which these poor women are pawns. What will probably happen is that Al Gore or some equal celebrity will go visit, give Great Leader the feeling of importance he wants and if the women are lucky they'll be released in a "Great Magnaminous Gesture" from "Great Leader". :P

Or maybe they might even detain Al Gore for some lame reason and prompt the activation of Marine One.

Welcome to World War III-to-be, but if it DOES happen, I would like to join in the fight as a ground troop or mercenary. Maybe a few more close death encounters might knock sense into my thick skull which even the normal education system can't do.

Sometimes I wonder if the stroke had really destroyed Kim's brain cells by the pound and prompt him for such stupidity. I mean, now that US has made "amends" and will probably get new "allies" in the next few months or so, it wouldn't be smart to do things like that. Even if China does support them, Russia isn't keen, neither is the rest of the world. Show some empathy for that few million people in the country man, they are the real victims here.

It is bad enough to starve people of food, but starving them of peace is way too asinine.

__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

It sounds like North Korea was inspired by Iran with that sailor capturing incident. Even if it's an 'ally', I would've expected China not to stand for people violating their borders and capturing people in their lands.

I guess for North Korea it's all about sabre rattling and throwing a fit over such trivial things such as this in order to get any kind of attention.

They even went as far as murder and risking a full scale war due to an arguement about cutting down a tree... so I guess it's not all that surprising.

The chatter didn't seem to change a lot after he died, but obviously people were freaked out running away the second he 'exploded'. :S

I think it took people a moment to realize what had happened -- if you listen, you can hear the tone change over the next few moments, and people are pointing... some people only look up a few seconds later and realize what that explosion was, like the guy who wanders out of the train.

It sounds like North Korea was inspired by Iran with that sailor capturing incident. Even if it's an 'ally', I would've expected China not to stand for people violating their borders and capturing people in their lands.

Your expectations are absolutely correct if this were to be a different nation. In this case, I suspect that China played a role in inviting the North Koreans over the borders to capture some rather problematic journalists that might have also been criticizing their nation, especially during the Olympics period of time. You never know, this is what to be expected of China. It is definitely not "invasion" or "violating their borders" regardless of what they claim or say as that if China does not gave a "nod" to North Korea, I doubt they would capture the journalists. And thus, the only way to save them is not through diplomacy or dialogue but rather use their tactics against them, capture some North Koreans for exchange, just like any other military conflicts. Unfortunately, not every North Korean will seal the deal for the exchange as that to North Korea and China, most of their people are expandables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Sometimes I wonder if the stroke had really destroyed Kim's brain cells by the pound and prompt him for such stupidity. I mean, now that US has made "amends" and will probably get new "allies" in the next few months or so, it wouldn't be smart to do things like that. Even if China does support them, Russia isn't keen, neither is the rest of the world. Show some empathy for that few million people in the country man, they are the real victims here.

Actually, it isn't North Korea that is being stupid here. I do hate them but reality points that it is the United States that is stupid by making the "amends" as that none of these actions will make much differences in the long-run. In fact, I no longer see the effect of it in the short-run either. Generally, the Americans' strategies against North Korea is not working at all. It is a simple waste of money and time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

They weren't IN North Korea, they were IN China ... the North Korean army guards crossed into China to arrest them for pointing their cameras at North Korea from China. I suppose the PRC is okay with the concept of such an "invasion" by North Korea :P

This whole thing is simply a game for the North Korean leadership in which these poor women are pawns. What will probably happen is that Al Gore or some equal celebrity will go visit, give Great Leader the feeling of importance he wants and if the women are lucky they'll be released in a "Great Magnaminous Gesture" from "Great Leader". :P

Perhaps, you are just being sarcastic.. Otherwise, the idea of sending Al Gore or somebody with equal influence over to North Korea is just a plain naive idea. You think North Korea and China actually cares?

The only way to rescue these journalists would be to play it North Korea's way. Send some agents and abduct some important North Korea figures to exchange. If it doesn't work, apply pressure by threatening to execute the important North Korea figures. Basically, its using their tactics against them. It will work depending on what these important North Korean figures are. However, the American citizens may not agree with this sort of method but perhaps, the American citizens don't even care what happen to these poor ladies in the first place. 12 years is ought to be a very long time. All they can do now is obey North Korea's every order, work hard, never disagree, pretend to worship Kim Jong-Il after a period of time, win the trust of the North Korean tyranny regime and when they have the opportunity, sneak out and get the hell out there. Nobody will come to their aid as of now. If they seek to leave North Korea, they must do it themselves.

Your expectations are absolutely correct if this were to be a different nation. In this case, I suspect that China played a role in inviting the North Koreans over the borders to capture some rather problematic journalists that might have also been criticizing their nation, especially during the Olympics period of time. You never know, this is what to be expected of China. It is definitely not "invasion" or "violating their borders" regardless of what they claim or say as that if China does not gave a "nod" to North Korea, I doubt they would capture the journalists. And thus, the only way to save them is not through diplomacy or dialogue but rather use their tactics against them, capture some North Koreans for exchange, just like any other military conflicts. Unfortunately, not every North Korean will seal the deal for the exchange as that to North Korea and China, most of their people are expandables.

Actually, it isn't North Korea that is being stupid here. I do hate them but reality points that it is the United States that is stupid by making the "amends" as that none of these actions will make much differences in the long-run. In fact, I no longer see the effect of it in the short-run either. Generally, the Americans' strategies against North Korea is not working at all. It is a simple waste of money and time.

Perhaps, you are just being sarcastic.. Otherwise, the idea of sending Al Gore or somebody with equal influence over to North Korea is just a plain naive idea. You think North Korea and China actually cares?

The only way to rescue these journalists would be to play it North Korea's way. Send some agents and abduct some important North Korea figures to exchange. If it doesn't work, apply pressure by threatening to execute the important North Korea figures. Basically, its using their tactics against them. It will work depending on what these important North Korean figures are. However, the American citizens may not agree with this sort of method but perhaps, the American citizens don't even care what happen to these poor ladies in the first place. 12 years is ought to be a very long time. All they can do now is obey North Korea's every order, work hard, never disagree, pretend to worship Kim Jong-Il after a period of time, win the trust of the North Korean tyranny regime and when they have the opportunity, sneak out and get the hell out there. Nobody will come to their aid as of now. If they seek to leave North Korea, they must do it themselves.

You seem to have an obsession with governments kidnapping people. You suggested that the Air France plane was hijacked and the people kidnapped for use in weird scientific experiments and here you're recommending that in order to secure the release of these journalists North Korean officals are to be kidnapped and threatened with death. Maybe you should take a step back and think about what you're saying here?

You seem to have an obsession with governments kidnapping people. You suggested that the Air France plane was hijacked and the people kidnapped for use in weird scientific experiments and here you're recommending that in order to secure the release of these journalists North Korean officals are to be kidnapped and threatened with death. Maybe you should take a step back and think about what you're saying here?

I am for the fact that he is a conspirator with the aliens from outer space to capture human subjects for experiments.

Well he might just be looking from a paranoid's POV, but those are probable theories. But just as theories are, never proven till facts are presented.

__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

You seem to have an obsession with governments kidnapping people. You suggested that the Air France plane was hijacked and the people kidnapped for use in weird scientific experiments and here you're recommending that in order to secure the release of these journalists North Korean officals are to be kidnapped and threatened with death. Maybe you should take a step back and think about what you're saying here?

Or maybe you should kidnap him and show him the error of his way and/or turn him into a superpowered mutant.

Perhaps, you are just being sarcastic.. Otherwise, the idea of sending Al Gore or somebody with equal influence over to North Korea is just a plain naive idea. You think North Korea and China actually cares?

It doesn't have anything to do with China or even North Korea... it has to do with the personality and temperament of Kim Jong Il. He has always *loved* to have his feathers stroked. Having a world personality like Gore come visit, kissy-smooch, and treat Kim as an equal or better has historically been productive. North Korea is the aggrandizement and god-worship of a dynasty. Also, you do know that the two journalists *work* for Mr. Gore, right? That he actually has a personal stake in the matter?

And no, the plight of the journalists is actually a pretty big story in the US and US citizens are concerned. We have two US citizens sentenced to 12 yrs for pointing their cameras across a national border river. That doesn't sit well with most people.

And I don't think China and North Korea work "in concert". Its more like China has a small out-of-control dog on their leash. China likes the consternation that keeps everyone off-balance... but they're not quite in control of it themselves. If they push too hard, they'll end up with millions of refugees to deal with.

They weren't IN North Korea, they were IN China ... the North Korean army guards crossed into China to arrest them for pointing their cameras at North Korea from China. I suppose the PRC is okay with the concept of such an "invasion" by North Korea :P

From what I've seen, it's only been said by unconfirmed sources that the journalists were in NK. The BBC are still unsure whether they were in China or North Korea - do you have a link?

I have all the BBC, Hong Kong news, and other reports. The North Korean State news claims they were in North Korea but so far they're the only ones who say that. Sorry but they're not exactly a credible news source based on their history of reporting

I do notice the more recent news releases globally have changed their wording and are waffling about the circumstances, calling the information "unconfirmed". If it *does* turn out the women were indeed across the border, my stance and sympathy will change dramatically to "well wasn't that f'ing stupid of them". However, I tend to think the papers are waffling the story to give the State Department more wiggle room in securing the women's release ( as it gives North Korea a "save face" avenue).

The UK Guardian notes that the North Korean version conflicts with other versions:

Quote:

North Korea said the pair had entered the country after crossing the river, along its north-east border with China. Other reports said the women had been arrested on the Chinese side by North Korean guards who objected to being filmed. Their cameraman and guide managed to evade capture.

Given the North Korean guard history of romping across the border into South Korea and China as well as shooting at people pointing cameras near the border -- there's some weight to the assertion they romped across again this time.

I had seen a number of reports in which it said that they got detained near the Chinese-North Korean borders along with a Chinese tour guide but the tour guide was released due to Chinese diplomatic channels. At the same time, there were also reports that the journalists were detained after crossing the borders as opposed to be near the borders. Its not really clear but it doesn't really matter as that is no longer the issue.

North Korea, as well as a handful of other nations is in a whole different world in which things that occur there may not occur or even be heard of over in democratic nations. Let's hope that if Al Gore goes over there to greet Kim Jong-Il, it will be a safe trip. I doubt they would detain Al Gore as that he was the former vice-president of the United States. There would be no excuses for such problematic behavior of North Korea tries to pull it off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

It doesn't have anything to do with China or even North Korea... it has to do with the personality and temperament of Kim Jong Il. He has always *loved* to have his feathers stroked. Having a world personality like Gore come visit, kissy-smooch, and treat Kim as an equal or better has historically been productive. North Korea is the aggrandizement and god-worship of a dynasty. Also, you do know that the two journalists *work* for Mr. Gore, right? That he actually has a personal stake in the matter?

And no, the plight of the journalists is actually a pretty big story in the US and US citizens are concerned. We have two US citizens sentenced to 12 yrs for pointing their cameras across a national border river. That doesn't sit well with most people.

And I don't think China and North Korea work "in concert". Its more like China has a small out-of-control dog on their leash. China likes the consternation that keeps everyone off-balance... but they're not quite in control of it themselves. If they push too hard, they'll end up with millions of refugees to deal with.

You got a good point. China is definitely not very happy with North Korea's actions as that they are most likely not doing things according to their plans. Kim Jong-Il is pretty much doing whatever they see fit but I am pretty sure that the upper echelon of the North Korean government most likely are in-sync with Kim Jong-Il's decisions.

As for the two journalists who are sentenced to 12 years of forced labor, I am actually quite angry as that they didn't do anything wrong at all, even though the North Korean supreme courts are claiming that they committed a "grave crime" but they refuse to explain what it is. Most importantly, I doubt their living conditions are okay now that they have to spend the next 12 years in North Korea unhappily.

As for the two journalists who are sentenced to 12 years of forced labor, I am actually quite angry as that they didn't do anything wrong at all, even though the North Korean supreme courts are claiming that they committed a "grave crime" but they refuse to explain what it is. Most importantly, I doubt their living conditions are okay now that they have to spend the next 12 years in North Korea unhappily.

Well, if they DID cross the border, then they did commit a crime. Of course, 12 years is a stupidly harsh prison sentence, but the rights and wrongs become more muddled if it is a case of trespass and border violation, rather than abduction by the North Koreans.

As for the two journalists who are sentenced to 12 years of forced labor, I am actually quite angry as that they didn't do anything wrong at all, even though the North Korean supreme courts are claiming that they committed a "grave crime" but they refuse to explain what it is. Most importantly, I doubt their living conditions are okay now that they have to spend the next 12 years in North Korea unhappily.

The grave crime is likely making a news report that would show North Korea in a bad light and being US citizens. Of course it seems lost on their government that by sentencing those journalists to 12 years in prison, North Korea is being seen in an even worse light. I've heard that it was a report on human smuggling across the border with China, and the articles Vexx posted mentioned something about North Korean refugees living in China and escaping. Since my source is a TV news broadcast though, I'm betting Vexx's are closer to the truth, but it's the same general topic. Given that, I'm guessing that the North Koreans didn't want that story out since it shows their people aren't all happy little sheep drinking the kool-aid their government is providing them.

The grave crime is likely making a news report that would show North Korea in a bad light and being US citizens. Of course it seems lost on their government that by sentencing those journalists to 12 years in prison, North Korea is being seen in an even worse light. I've heard that it was a report on human smuggling across the border with China, and the articles Vexx posted mentioned something about North Korean refugees living in China and escaping. Since my source is a TV news broadcast though, I'm betting Vexx's are closer to the truth, but it's the same general topic. Given that, I'm guessing that the North Koreans didn't want that story out since it shows their people aren't all happy little sheep drinking the kool-aid their government is providing them.

I agree with your perspective on the definition of "grave crime" as that it actually took CNN about 3 years to negotiate sending a reporter into North Korea for filming. I didn't see the entire documentary though but it seems that the reporter had to wear a special tag on her. Also, she must be accompanied by North Korean agents wherever she goes and there is restricted access as to what can be filmed and what cannot be. More over, when she tried to take a photo of the Kim Jong-Il statue, the agents stopped her saying that it is not okay to film the statue of Kim Jong-Il from behind and must be filmed in a good angle, so that it makes Kim Jong-Il looks nice.

Many state legislatures in the US are organized in a similar fashion to the federal government. I haven't looked to see why the two defected... could have been because they were facing tough primaries in their own party and jumped parties.

edit: now this is just rich o.O. The two Dems have not left their party (though they may get kicked out after this stunt) but were virulently anti-gay marriage. They finagled process rules with the Republican minority to "mutiny" the Senate basically. Its not even clear this will hold up legally.

Quote:

Anyone know why the Democrats have a 107-41 majority in the New York Assembly but only had a 32-30 majority in the Senate?

You'd probably have to look at a New York State map showing representative and senate districts... it'd probably become clearer (some artifact of jerrymandering district lines or something).

Many state legislatures in the US are organized in a similar fashion to the federal government. I haven't looked to see why the two defected... could have been because they were facing tough primaries in their own party and jumped parties.

edit: now this is just rich o.O. The two Dems have not left their party (though they may get kicked out after this stunt) but were virulently anti-gay marriage. They finagled process rules with the Republican minority to "mutiny" the Senate basically. Its not even clear this will hold up legally.

You'd probably have to look at a New York State map showing representative and senate districts... it'd probably become clearer (some artifact of jerrymandering district lines or something).

I especially like how they talk about reform, when the republicans were in control of the senate for decades and didn't want to hear of it, and the only two major issues left in this session are votes on gay marriage and taking control of the NYC schools away from rich fascist dicta... err mayor Bloomberg. Seriously, Gulianni could have stayed mayor after 9-11 and probably gotten 90%+ of the vote, but he respected the term limits and stepped aside even though the city council said they would be willing to get rid of them. This clown on the other hand moved to have the term limits overturned because the city was facing it's "worst crisis ever!" and "needed" him.

Ok I went on a bit of an anti-Bloomberg rant, but still, reform is the last thing on their minds. In fact it's a last ditch effort to stop reform.

It can mean anything. Good reasons can become no reasons depending on the perspective; same way around with bad reasons which can result as good reasons. After all, even if nations are given the authority to inspect vessels, they must acquire the consent of North Korea ahead of time. Thus, the end result will be disputes on the sea as usual.