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I hope you're wrong. At least one state legislature needs to seriously start debating the topic of secession. The SC nullification of 0vomitcare is a good first step and I realize that it's a big leap from nullifying one law to declaring independence but I think that it's the only option left at this point.

There are a couple of issues (Second AMendment , immigration) worthy of a discussion of secession. Universal Healthcare is not one of them.

There are a couple of issues (Second AMendment , immigration) worthy of a discussion of secession. Universal Healthcare is not one of them.

Au contraire. Secession is a worthy topic anytime the federal government oversteps their constitutional limits, and that discussion is long overdue. In our present situation, a Declaration of Independence type document listing all of the grievances against the present king and his jesters would be a good first start.

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you won't need it until they try to take it away."---Thomas Jefferson

There are a couple of issues (Second AMendment , immigration) worthy of a discussion of secession. Universal Healthcare is not one of them.

As Reb points out, any federal overreach that trashes the Constitution undermines its authority. The federal government derives its structure and authority from the Constitution. Without those structures and authorities, the federal government has no justification for its existence. When you play the "living document" game, you kill the goose that collects and redistributes the golden eggs.

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Reb

Au contraire. Secession is a worthy topic anytime the federal government oversteps their constitutional limits, and that discussion is long overdue. In our present situation, a Declaration of Independence type document listing all of the grievances against the present king and his jesters would be a good first start.

Au contraire. Secession is a worthy topic anytime the federal government oversteps their constitutional limits, and that discussion is long overdue. In our present situation, a Declaration of Independence type document listing all of the grievances against the present king and his jesters would be a good first start.

You can't separate healthcare into state and federal at this point. The finances of healthcare are too complicated.

• Tax money pays for research and researchers at federal and local levels.

• NIH (and other national research facilities in other countries) are primary inventors and developers of pharmaceuticals

• Tax money subsidizes the education of healthcare workers from doctor to janitor.

• Hospitals get an institutional exemption from property taxes, even for-profit hospitals.

• The federal government and state and local governments own and operate hospitals through various health care delivery systems including but not limited to public hospitals, the VA, and military hospitals.

As Reb points out, any federal overreach that trashes the Constitution undermines its authority. The federal government derives its structure and authority from the Constitution. Without those structures and authorities, the federal government has no justification for its existence. When you play the "living document" game, you kill the goose that collects and redistributes the golden eggs.

QFT

Frankly, it's the people and places with the biggest mouths on secession which would be hurt the most by it. While Texas is the exception in federal aid, all the other southern states are beggar states. Moreover, the concentration of military bases in the South means that huge federal payrolls go to places where the entire economy is peripheral to a military base.

Since 80% of the country didn't want Obamacare. I think this needs to be addressed. The government over stepped its bounds by passing it know such was the case. And even Justice Roberts said it was unconstitutional, which is why he stated it as a tax to be passed by the SCOTUS.

My only thought is that Holder and Obama are going to be suing the state of South Carolina now for not allowing a socialist agenda that ALL liberals love go through. Well, I can't say all liberals. Even Harry Reid is saying that Obamacare is crap.

You can't separate healthcare into state and federal at this point. The finances of healthcare are too complicated.

Of course they are complicated. Government funded transactions are always more complicated than private sector transactions. Funding for government programs passes through massively redundant layers of government before reaching the end-user, far more layers than any competitive private sector company could possibly permit, since the overhead would strangle it. But that doesn't mean that it is the optimal situation, far from it, in fact. The bloated public sector pursues its own agenda, often preventing it.

Originally Posted by Novaheart

• Tax money pays for research and researchers at federal and local levels.

• NIH (and other national research facilities in other countries) are primary inventors and developers of pharmaceuticals

Uh, no. In fact, American pharmaceutical companies account for the vast majority of new drugs. NIH research is almost exclusively derived from private sector sources, and mostly

The Most Productive Drug Companies Of The Past 10 Years
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Over the past 10 years, 278 new drugs have been approved by the Food and Drug Administration, according to data from the InnoThink Center for Research in Biomedical Innovation. One hundred-and-seventy-five of them, or 63% of those approvals, came from 41 companies that had at least two new drugs approved during that time period. (Specifically, we’re looking from the beginning of 2003 until now.) Below are all of those 41 companies.

This data gives insight into how productive different drug companies have been over this time period — one during which, generally speaking, research and development in the pharmaceutical industry has been below the level it needed to be. Obviously, a count of the number of new molecular entities (industry jargon for brand new drugs) is not the only measure of innovation. A truly great medicine is worth a whole lot of me-too pills. But it’s a start. There’s a lot more that can be done with this data, but I wanted to get this cut out. To see a similar list from a year or so ago, click here. Here is a 15-year time frame. And here is a 60-year time frame.

Thanks to InnoThink principal Bernard Munos for all his help in collating and analyzing this data.

• Tax money subsidizes the education of healthcare workers from doctor to janitor.

Janitors? Really? Tax money subsidizes all education, which is ultimately why there is a glut of higher education. This isn't an argument against further privatizing health care, it's an argument in favor of getting government out of the education racket.

Originally Posted by Novaheart

• Hospitals get an institutional exemption from property taxes, even for-profit hospitals.

So? Property taxes are local and state taxes. The feds don't tax property, they tax income.

Originally Posted by Novaheart

• The federal government and state and local governments own and operate hospitals through various health care delivery systems including but not limited to public hospitals, the VA, and military hospitals.

The federal government owns hospitals on military bases, but that's pretty much it. The states and cities own the vast majority of public hospitals, but even so, the private sector owns far more.

Number of U.S. Community ** Hospitals 4,973
Number of Nongovernment Not-for-Profit Community Hospitals 2,903
Number of Investor-Owned (For-Profit) Community Hospitals 1,025
Number of State and Local Government Community Hospitals 1,045
Number of Federal Government Hospitals 208
Number of Nonfederal Psychiatric Hospitals 421
Number of Nonfederal Long Term Care Hospitals 112
Number of Hospital Units of Institutions (Prison Hospitals, College Infirmaries, Etc.) 10

Originally Posted by Novaheart

Frankly, it's the people and places with the biggest mouths on secession which would be hurt the most by it. While Texas is the exception in federal aid, all the other southern states are beggar states. Moreover, the concentration of military bases in the South means that huge federal payrolls go to places where the entire economy is peripheral to a military base.

Again, false. Military bases tend to be situated in the middle of nowhere because the land is cheap, with the exception of a few naval bases which must be sited near coastlines, but very few regions are completely dependent on a military presence. In fact, the greatest concentration of military personnel in the country is also the greatest concentration of government personnel, the National Capitol Region, i.e., Washington DC and the surrounding suburbs. The major urban centers in the US are pretty much military voids, unless you count reserve and guard units, and those are relatively low generators of economic growth.

In short, every one of your arguments is either based on false data or irrelevant to the discussion.

Uh, no. In fact, American pharmaceutical companies account for the vast majority of new drugs. NIH research is almost exclusively derived from private sector sources, and mostly .

This is truly a case where statistics are too generic and thus irrelevant. I don't give a rat's patoot who invented Viagra or Rogaine or a host of various pills for such important things as toenail fungus. Also, a great many of the patents issued in a given year for "new drugs" are simply new formulations for old brand name drugs whose patents are about to expire.

Private pharma firms also hold patents on formulations for drugs that they did not invent or develop. The may have done the end work (clinical trials) but didn't actually save the tenth monkey with brain cancer.

All drugs are not created equal. Thus a figure that private industry invented or parented to patent a given number of drugs is without meaning. Moreover, you still can't separate the money. If Glaxo participates in a development at a research university that is funded by state dollars, and they all are, then you can't say, "Well the lights were paid for by the state on Tuesday and by Glaxo on Monday."