The “Maori Way”

A Mana Party candidate who kept $12,000 that had been given for his cancer treatment says he was unable to give the money back.

Television host Te Hamua Nikora is representing Mana in the Ikaroa-Rawhiti byelection, which was prompted by the death of Labour’s Parekura Horomia in April.

Mr Nikora was diagnosed with a brain tumour three years ago and his community raised between $30,000 and $40,000 for private treatment.

When the Auckland District Health Board did the operation free of charge, he said he would give the money to charities and the community.

Maori current affairs show Native Affairs asked Mr Nikora this week whether he had returned all of the money, and he confirmed that he had kept $12,000 which had been raised for him in an art auction.

“They wouldn’t let me give that money back,” he said.

Asked whether he felt it was right to keep it, he said: “Yes. My whanau gave it to me. We have to think of this in not so much a money way but in a Maori way.”

Unbelievable.

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He should be in NZ First, they don’t give money back either.
Where’s the $158,000 Winston?

tarkwin

Winnie doesn’t like competition! That’s why Andrew Williams is there.

steve and monique

Well that sums up the situation in this country well.

williamabong

Just another thieving black mother fucker, if he gets in (highly unlikely) he will be able to rub shoulders or noses with John Hatfield and the rest of the criminal dynasty that is the first family of Martydom

Ronnie Chow

Not really . He was asked to keep the money “Toihoukura had urged him to use it for his recovery ” , however , “Mr Nikora has said in previous interviews that he redistributed all of the money given for his treatment.”

williamabong

$12 K would pay for a lot of breakfasts for kids.

Dave

Kids yes, wannabe politicians NO, not many!

Dave

Ronnie, he probably redistributed it. I redistribute money from my own wallet to my waist line regularly, the local bar helps me achieve this as does the local restaurants, I am sure he can account for his “Redistribution” might also include a few local retailers, so he is supporting commerce. :)

Ronnie Chow

Surely his recovery is part of his treatment . He used donors money with the donors blessing .

The issue is his lies . After having head cancer removed , possibly excusable.

4077th

Previous interviews where plainly he has not heeded the “explaining is loosing” call.

Lloyd

This is NOT the Maori way, it is convenient semantics.
My iwi would deliver a taiaha haircut to any miscreant who behaved this way in the good old days. Theft from whanau is theft, pure and simple. Where the hell are his elders and why are they silent?
This behaviour is repugnant and cannot be excused under any mythology, present or past.

williamabong

Have a look at whose hat he’s wearing in the election and ask did you expect anything different.

tarkwin

He is a member of the Harawira Gang – they make up the rules as they go. Race has absolutely nothing to do with this. Greed is the only motivator.

Lloyd

True!

Harroputza

This gang (because that’s what they are) always uses tikanga as a cloak to mask their real intent; for another example, see Titewhai’s flagrant abuse of protocol at Waitangi, which pissed off many of the people from that area that I know.

williamabong

Trouble is no one in Maoridom has the balls to stand up to her or any of her bulling family, why is this? , are they scared of her, does she have some dirt on them, or are Maori just to lazy to bother.
Until someone does they are all tarred with the same brush. (pun intended)

Dave

William, isint that the real problem with Maoridom, who is the leader. The Maori king, Titiwhai, Hone, the leaders of the Maori party ??? Should i include little Johnny Minto in there, what about Turei…….. I don’t want to turn this into a Maori bash or debate, but where are the leaders, driving change, commanding respect of all around and setting the standards.

John Phillips

David Rankin ??

steve and monique

Well said,and thank you.

spollyike

Hey, this is yet another example of the dual set of rights Maori have as tangata whenua and indigenous people as set out in the Treaty, leave him alone.

Maori are a toanga to this country.

Muffin

I imagine you can expect Rangi on here any time soon defending his actions, but I’m with you Spol, dont know how we let this sort of behaviour go unpunnished, or at the very least why we would have an individual like this running for a position in parliment.

williamabong

Gets hard to defend the indefensible, be be more surprised if it lingers in the media long enough to make it’self noticeable.

manuka416

Explain this spollyike: “this is yet another example of the dual set of rights Maori have as tangata whenua and indigenous people as set out in the Treaty”.

What is the dual set of rights that Maori have, as laid out in Te Tiriti, that sanction Mr. Nikora’s behaviour in this case?

Sarrs

I think because Mr Nikiroa’s defence was that it wasn’t a ‘money’ thing, it was a ‘maori’ thing. Test for racism (the one I use anyway) if you replace the word maori with european/pakeha/anglo etc, is the sentence still inoffensive and appropriate? If Bill English had done the same thing and simply said ‘it’s a farmer thing’ would that be appropriate?

spollyike

exactly:)

manuka416

Still looking forward to your explanation: “this is yet another example of the dual set of rights Maori have as
tangata whenua and indigenous people as set out in the Treaty”.

spollyike

If they get in trouble over something while living in the realm of NZ customs/laws/legislation, they have the excuse that no-one else in NZ has, which goes something like: “It’s the maori way…” for example.

It’s no different to the hag calling air nz racists for not letting her work for them despite their racially blind universal employment condition of no tats. Or, Tuhoe didn’t honour the treaty but the crown is expected to, the crown must pay for supposed but not the other partner? Or rights to lower entry requirements for certain professional qualifications, or rights to separate health care systems solely for maori New Zealanders, or only maori can make a claim to the waitangi tribunal even though it is a tribunal to hear claims about treaty grievances (which included two partners). Or, rights to extra representation on local government which no other ethnic group is permitted. These are just a few examples of course.

manuka416

Spollyike – If you get into trouble while living in the realm of NZ customs/laws/legislation, you can always say “It’s the pakeha way…”

There you go, all equal now :)

spollyike

It’s not the Pakeha way though, it’s the Maori way.

Sarrs

Let’s not pretend a whitey wouldn’t do the same thing. Plenty would. In this case it’s up the Mr Nikora’s community condemn his behaviour and seek repayment of the funds or at the very least an apology. People abusing charitable funds is a pet hate of mine.

manuka416

It wouldn’t be okay for Bill English, because he is a well-established politician who has to maintain a high level of transparency (he’s learned the hard way).

There is another part of Mr. Nikora’s sentence: Whanau. Is it okay if it’s a ‘family thing’?

“Yes. My whanau gave it to me. We have to think of this in not so much a money way but in a Maori way.”

Another racial framing: If pakeha Joe Bloggs was given money fundraised by his community and family for a cancer operation, but then didn’t need all the money and tried to give back, and the fundraisers told him to keep it for his recovery, would that be okay?

I think Mr. Nikora is in a bit of trouble more because of the divide between the custom of koha and the standard of transparency and public accountability that we expect from politicians (the realm which he intends to enter).

Sarrs

No, it isn’t acceptable for anyone to keep funds raised for a specific purpose when they are no longer required for that purpose.

I used Bill English as an example, you could put me in that example and it still wouldn’t be acceptable.

manuka416

I always enjoy saying , “Hey, keep the change…,” to my kids ;)

johnbronkhorst

yeah BUT in this case nobody actually said it!!!

manuka416

Actually: “A member of the Gisborne-based Toihoukura art school which held the
auction, Steve Gibbs, confirmed that the money was intended as a koha
and the school was happy for him to keep it.”

Sarrs

Yes, he did say that. Was it his right to say that when the funds were raised for a different reason? My opinion is that he had no right to change what the funds were used for after they had been raised, in good faith, by members of a community.

4077th

With respect Manuka (because I think you deserve it), Mr Gibbs had no option but to say keep it. It is not done to ask for a charitable donation to be returned in the same way it is not done to keep it if you do not need it. It is after all charity is it not?

manuka416

Thanks 4077th. I agree with your point. I had considered that situation Mr Gibbs found himself in.

johnbronkhorst

AFTER the fact. Not as part of the terms and conditions that the auction was held under!!!

steve and monique

Maori might be toanga.But how many full blood maori are left. Because their are some real mongrels in the treasure chest now. And by the way indigenous is those who are born/original to this country. Which going by both Maori,and European history,we both floated down here,and both of our first born(maori and european) became indigenous to this country.There is no 1st place in that situation.

manuka416

There are plenty of taonga who/which aren’t Maori. All great New Zealander’s are taonga to this country. A few of the many examples: Kate Sheppard, Sir Edmund Hillary, Sir Apirana Ngata – and that’s just covering our dollar notes!

steve and monique

Agree.We have a host of people in this country who can be held as Taonga. And we should be proud of them all. Sadly it seems that due to a minority claiming all and sundry under the guise of the treaty,that it has started to caused ill feeling towards Maori in general. There has been to much use of the words,our country/land, injustice(yes there have been a few),compensation,and the word which really grates me,indigenous.For a country of 4-something million people,it is a shame we cant rid ourselves of the past,and enjoy what is a great place to live. Why should we be held ransom,for the mistakes of our forebears.

4077th

You can only be rid of the past when others stop regurgitating it Steve.

steve and monique

Good point.Shame some cant forgive,and just get on with life

manuka416

Trouble is, forgiveness and restoration are complementary when making things right. The restoration process, i.e. the treaty settlements, does a lot of good for the different iwi. It’s a good part of the required healing, i.e. ridding ourselves of the past.

I get where you’re coming from though. It’s not okay to blame today’s pakeha, or any of today’s New Zealander’s, for the injustices of yesteryear. We don’t need new victims.

steve and monique

Thanks for that.I Understand there have been some things we need to address in the treaty,and yes,there does need to be some form of compensation re these events(confiscated land) .But when does it stop. There seem as if there is a new claim arising for things which are not an injustice,but natural eg water,airwaves etc. This will only be seen as profit making from non Maori. I am 1/16th Maori.but would never put my hand up,or out for compensation for past events that my ancestors managed to cock up .A simple apology would suffice. Anyway this is getting away from what this post is about. If I had a spare 12 grand(donations),after getting surgery,I would have given it to hospice.So bad form Nikora.

Dr Wang

This is the way they do things in the Mana Party.

I remember Hone Harawira admitting on a current affairs TV show a few years back that he pocketted “koha” donations he received while acting in his capacity as an MP (which he passed on to his missus, bought things for his kids etc). The incredulous white female co-panelist (Deborah Cone Hill from memory) was slapped down by Hone for judging him from her privileged non-maori value system.

Hypocrisy and racist attitudes are a prerequisite for Mana Party membership.

Lion_ess

The following passage from the Herald item is missing from this post, for balance. However, it’s a sleazy look for Nikora to have kept the money, should have donated it to a Cancer Charity and become a hero.

“A member of the Gisborne-based Toihoukura art school which held the auction, Steve Gibbs, confirmed that the money was intended as a koha and the school was happy for him to keep it.”

Sarrs

I can’t help but wonder about the people who actually donated items to the auction and those who purchased things thinking that it was going to help with his treatment. It’s a bit of a slap in the face to them that he now has $12k in his pocket due to their generosity and that money won’t be used for treatment.

He should have donated the money to charity – it was raised under the assumption that it would directly impact the treatment of a cancer patient and that is now not the case. Give it to someone who needs the help.

Harroputza

Exactly. It was intended as a koha, but he could have kohad that on to a charity out of the goodness of his heart, increasing his mana. But he chose to keep it.

Sarrs

He also told the ADHB, when they performed his operation for free, that he would give the $12k to charity and the community. It states further down that he attempted to give the money to a cancer charity but Toihoukura urged him to use it for his recovery.

What’s the deal with koha – does the giver have control over what the receiver can use it for? Doesn’t seem like he tried very hard to give the money to charity.

blokeintakapuna

Charity begins at home… in your own trouser pocket it seems…

Dave

Only this Pratt has very deep pockets, it goes in, it doesn’t come out!!

Tom

Certainly never crossed his mind that maybe the likes of Canteen or whoever could do with a lazy $12k donation?

Hazards001

What does my head in is why anyone would want to keep the piece of shit alive in the first place? Takes all kinds I suppose?

4077th

Charity was, is and will always be guilt money and ONLY used as a last resort regardless of what Steve Gibbs said. He has no choice but to say that because it is the charitable response to the question. It’s not ok to keep the money and refer to it as being a Maori thing, what is ok is that he should pass on the “extra” charity to another needy cause. Recovery from a brain tumor is amazing. Recovering from a brain fart is a whole different matter altogether Mr Nikora.

Sarrs

However, given the time frame involved, what do we think the chances are that there’s even a cent left? Let’s be realistic here – it happened three years ago. The money is gone.

4077th

Gone for sure..along with his reputation as a good bloke and person of Maori heritage with integrity. It does nothing to further the cause. If I were him I would hold a press conference and announce a significant donation to a charity centered around Maori health and education..political gold and a hell of a way to get your name out there.

HtD

Interesting that the Maori Party are saying it will influence voters. They don’t seen to think it’s the Maori way

Mr_Blobby

Yes they do. When it applies to them.

Its called making up the rules as you go along.

MrAuz1989

Who perchance was advising this guy?
The best damn blogger that money can buy?

Mr_Blobby

Bradbury the Cunt, Lord of Bullshit.

manuka416

No theft going on here. No tax-payer funds involved. This isn’t an example of tangata whenua getting more than anyone else. The donors said it was a koha, and were quite happy for Mr. Nikora to keep it – even when it wasn’t needed in the end.

But anyone wanting to be seen as having high integrity would’ve made sure the $12K was returned or redistributed to a charitable purpose, no matter the donors wishes.

Sarrs

Agreed but one point – the school held an auction to raise the funds. Were the people donating items and bidding aware that this was going to be a koha for personal use or were they under the impression that it was for treatment?

manuka416

A very good point. Even more of a reason that the $12K should have been returned or redistributed.

Dave

Manakau, YES, it should have been redistributed, even if he had of gone to the community, and stated here is half of it back, the other half has been consumed in travel and recovery expenses, but to keep it without explanation is simply unacceptable. There is a track record there, trust, not much!

ALL politicians need to be squeaky clean, it doesn’t matter if they are WMF’s, asian, maori or indian, the slightest indiscretion is one too many. If someone like John Key or Judy Crusher collins did something like this, the media and people like Winston (give us back our money) and Hone Hatfield would be having a field day.

It the level of Hypocrisy that beggars belief, then to say “in a Maori way”, the rest of society thinks, bugger me, one rule for them, another for us, what next. This is simply one maori shooting all other maori in the foot, AND, he is saying trust me, vote for me, go figure………

manuka416

Yes, I agree. Politician’s do need to be squeaky clean. But, Mr. Nikora didn’t retain the donation, with the donor’s blessing, as a politician. It’s a problem now that he wants to enter politics.

Dave

BUT, and a very big BUT, this might have happened in his “private life”…….. But……… He is now entering Politics, and what do his voters have to look at, oh yes, his track record. Got ill, helped out by his community, and kept the $12K, didn’t even give back $2K… When you become a Politician, your right to privacy over (at least) recent history vanishes, he must account for the funds or accept he has done the wrong thing. as for the Maori way, its simply setting separate standards, I looked & cant find it referred to in the “Accounting Standards or definitions”

manuka416

Yes, I agree with you again Dave. We hold politicians to a particular standard, and quite rightly so. Transparency is very important.

The “Maori way” as stated by Mr. Nikora has been framed for the purposes of this blog as an excuse for not giving the money back. Perhaps that wasn’t Mr. Nikora’s meaning of the “Maori way”. Perhaps the “Maori way” he was referring to was the way of whanau/iwi/community support, or the customs and manners of koha.

johnbronkhorst

Do you think he remembers what happened to the last guy to use the “cultural defence”? For this kind of behaviour. Wasn’t his name phillip field?

Honcho

That money could have done a world of good for the likes the cancer Society.
Just because he couldn’t return it to individuals it didn’t mean it could not be used to do some really good work.

Selfish is all he is.

manuka416

The story is about Mr. Nikora’s personal integrity and morals in light of his political ambitions, not about the Maori way of koha and support for whanau/iwi/community. It’s unfortunate that some people are commenting on the “Maori way”, rather than Mr. Nikora’s way.

Sarrs

That was his comment, not ours. No comment from his party suggesting otherwise. Labour candidate Meka Whaitiri said it was not an issue that concerned her. Still nothing official from anyone stating that, regardless of Mr Nikiroa’s comments, this is not the Maori way. Yes, I agree that this story should be about his personal integrity but, by not condemning this behaviour publicly, Maoridom are silently condoning it.

Lion_ess

You’re right Manuka, Mr Nikora’s statement says more about his own integrity. His throw-away line about it being “the Maori way” is a last resort statement he has used to blame all maori, than to come back with an acceptable reason why he kept the money. Oh, it’s a maori thing – case closed, move on. Big fail to Mr Nikora.

williamabong

Because no one will dare to challenge it, as it will make them a racist.

Get a Grip

Always nice to start your day reading the rednecks are alive and well and on this blog :-) It occurs to me that many might not have read the complete article. They apparently stopped reading after they read the words “the Maori way”.

Consider this.
Little boy has brain tumour – community raise a lot of money
Little boy has operation done by local hospital at no charge.
Family try and return money to community
One community group says no, keep a chunk to help cover all the other expenses that were incurred (travel, accomodation for mum & dad at hospital etc) and try and make a decent life for the little fella.

Would you all be baying for blood from that family?

manuka416

It can be a redneck festival on here at times. Fortunately, the wise old gurus of the blog seldom get involved in the racism.

4077th

It is a right wing blog after all Manuka so it should not come as a surprise. It is good to see that cool heads do prevail in most cases.

manuka416

Not a surprise, but often disappointing. Though the melt-downs can the entertaining at times ;)

4077th

The melt downs do provide some relief, comic or otherwise for a number of commenters. It is after all just comments and in most cases they are nothing more than just opinions to be considered or ignored.

Sarrs

One of the points being made is that, when the ADHB performed the operation at no cost (assuming there would have been one for private treatment otherwise), Mr Nikiroa assured them that the funds raised to cover that cost would be distributed to charity and the community. If a family with a sick baby had made such a statement and then kept the money I would be saying exactly the same thing.

spollyike

Yes then they’d probably end up on cry baby of the week.

Dave

Get a Grip and Manuka. There is one HUGE difference That kid would not be entering into politics and saying……… TRUST ME……. And, the local community would quietly say, they should have returned the money.

It also goes to character, the thing that builds true leaders, he chose NOT to repay the funds, not even part of it. he also DIDN’T tell the community HOW they had been spent, so this could have blown over.

AND, all of this would have remained PRIVATE had he chosen to remain private, and not put himself up as a candidate. Furthermore, the TERM “the maori way” was wrong on so many levels, there is another mistake he has made.

PS: Has he ever put on a thank you for his community that worked so hard to raise so much money – NO

williamabong

Little boys family insist on donating the money to various locals like the next in the line for an operation not paid for by the DHB, it’s not a Maori thing it’s a Mana thing.
Obviously the operation came in quite a bit cheaper as the brain was considerably smaller than expected, further evidenced by this half wit hooking his wagon to the Hatfield horse.

Col

But he was not a little boy, but then again he may wish he was.
Sorry but he is not short of a dollar, should give it to a charity.

Kimbo

No, I don’t think you’ve included the key component that resulted in the post:

Little boy’s father stands as a candidate for a political party that takes any and every opportunity to question the morals, motives, and ethics of their opponents whenever those opponents attempt to use their business acumen and connections to do what they wthink is of ultimate benefit to the country, e.g. Sky City convention centre, Sanitarium and Fonterra aiding breakfasts in schools.

Mana are prepared at any and every opportunity to label or imply their opponents are rascists and crooks. OK, you want to judge others by those labels, you had not only better be seen to be spotless, you had better be spotless.

Koha brings with it an issue – an obligation to return the favour at a later date. I don’t have a problem that Maori choose to utilise koha, which in doing so enhances their mana (prestige, not the party!).

But when it is someone who then attempts to become a politicain, representing a party who interpret EVERYTHING in terms of corrupt forces ripping off their supporters, then others are entitled to ask the question…

if these people have such an extreme and jaundiced view of the political process, indeed human relationships, then isn’t it likely that those who give and receive koha will understand it as a quid pro quo relationship, such that the politician is “owned”, and claiming it is “the Maori way” is simply a guilt trip (Mana’s primary modus operandi) to throw people off the scent of corruption?

tarkwin

Nicely put there Kimbo.

4077th

+1 Kimbo

Dave

Beautifully worded reply, and no response from Get a Grip!! Asked and answered! +1 from me

Get a Grip

Fair comment Kimbo

Phil

If an alien force visited Earth and demanded all governments to give preferential treatment to Chinese – you’d see all these tangata-whatever suddendly start ‘identifying’ as Chinese…

Rangi

This is your stupid supposition, when what we do know, thanks to the efforts of the Maori Battalion is that Maori would be first in the fight to defend this country you ungracious, ungrateful prick.

Phil

Maybe older generations, but not the current bunch. Modern maardi are more worried about who owes them what and happy to find reasons anywhere. They won’t let facts get in the way.

Outside this, the only fighting they are interested in these days is family violence.

Rangi

Wrong again dickhead, just look at who makes up the bulk of our armed forces and what rituals are performed during training and when soldiers meet their end. Time to engage brain numbnuts.

Phil

Do we still have armed forces? Really?
I can’t imagine it is very large OR a good reflection on society as a whole. They should just be a part of the Police in this day and age.

williamabong

More tokenism, from soft cocks to afraid to tell the pagans to piss off lest we offend them, I’m sure there was something on page 204 of the treaty about this.

Col

Frack, I have heard it all now, fracking bastard, the fracking ‘Maori way” my ass, and he wants to be an MP, oh well Hone and him can sit together and tell lies and makeup stories, and get Fracking paid for doing it.

Rangi

So he gave back the remaining $28K? You’re acting like its your money or tax-payer money – it ain’t!!

Its entirely reasonable to accept that $12K could have been spent on consulting & diagnosis fees, post op fees etc, etc…

So a cander sufferer was a little loose with his language – who gives a fuck??

“Unbelievable” ay Whale? Get a grip man

Dave

Read below Rangi, as I have said, He DIDNT explain what he had spent it on, so he is simply a Dickhead, trying to cover his tracks with a ridiculous statement it is the Maori way. I really hope a leader from Maoridom stands up and says, this is not the maori way etc etc…….

Also ,once your covered under Public health, your covered, post this fees, post that fees, the whole 9 yards.

Rangi

OK have read below & all I can see is this funding was Koha with no requirement for return. Koha, of course, being the “Maori way” of the equivalent of “donation” Given that, – what the fuck is everyone on about?

williamabong

Another apologist, I suppose that’s the marty way as well.

Rangi

No son – the way the Govt and Crown carry on, you’d think they would be more accurately described as “apologists” – Can you not see this very plain & obvious truth, dickhead. (I suppose a distinction could be that they are constantly apologising for their own behaviours)

williamabong

Sorry Son, your right, the crown and govt have carried on as apologists, if they hadn’t bothered to listen to a convicted criminal they wouldn’t have given $36 bn of taxpayer money to cover perceived and imagined grievances to a group of immigrants who had as much genuine claim to the land as I do.

Marty have grown an industry around the treaty, and its interpretations have become the stuff of legend, probably a real shame the the previous occupants didn’t get treated as well when marty arrived.

The real shame of this entire situation is seeing a once proud people being reduced to welfare dependence to survive, and living on handouts seems to be the only way forward.

Rangi

Hahaaa – You went to the trouble of editing your comment to add that?? Fucking bottom-feeding loser…

williamabong

Apart from another shovel full of abuse, which seems to be the sum total of your contribution to any discussion, you haver nothing to say on any of the points raised, never mind crack open another Lion Red spark up the bong, I’m sure you’ll manage another of your great come backs, such witty repartee.

Rangi

What you raise is nothing new & been done to death on WOBH. Frankly, Im bored with it, and you still go on with what you think are insults. Honestly, your edit & quip about bongs etc just make you look cheap, petty & not worthy of anything more than what you have received from me. No doubt you’ll tell me if you think Im being unreasonable…

williamabong

Still you can’t see the elephant in the room, maori are overrepresented in a number of areas, child abuse, and the prison population to name two,

Pocketing $12 k isn’t the end of the earth and is hardly the great train robbery but it could have benefited a lot of people worse off than this guy, and who knows why he had to lie to justify himself, is that the “Maori Way” as well

Maori politicians and aspiring politicians should be leading by example, and Hone is a populist and a racist doing his evil mothers bidding, and the plebs that follow him will be sadly disappointed if they think there is anything there for them.

Maori leaders need to step up, forget about the past, and get on with the job of making New Zealand a country others look up to or a once proud people will continue the journey down the slippery slope they seem so eager to plunge down..

Rangi

Thank you for your high powered view of what “Maori need” and “Maori should” as if Maori have made a conscious, culture-wide choice to underachieve. My view is that once given the tools to succeed, Maori will perform outstandingly & there are plenty of examples of that. Just wait till the Tuhoe settlement takes effect, what you’ll see there is a self perpetuating machine which will make Ngai Tahu look like a lemonade stand.

But oh my Christ! What a mission it was to get to the current point where JK, a National Party PM, the first PM in history to hand back a National Park.

Failure for Maori is unrecognisable if pointed out by those who tactically precipitated that failure and subsequents who benefit from those tactics, it must be recognised by Maori first, then psyche recalibrated to pursue opportunities and this must be facilitated by the Crown by way of reasonable treatment of Treaty claims.

The latter bit has not been forthcoming, partly, of course, because we are dealing with the Govt, in lieu of the Crown…

williamabong

But why is the land being handed to people that stole it from the original owners anyway, and to watered down descendants of the thieves at that.

Rangi

…Umm the deal was with the Crown & Maori, no other parties so, it’s validity is not now, or ever has been in question. and there you go again with the cheapshots #facepalm.

williamabong

Still not answering the question, why is the land being given to the descendants of the thieves that stole it, doesn’t matter how you sugar coat it or wave the treaty around the place Maori are not nor ever have been the original owners of this land.
And the crown is that the same crown many Maori refuse to recognise, or do they only recognise the crown when it comes clutching the chequebook.

Rangi

“Given” funny way to described it without pointing out who actually owns it.

So what basis & method do you propose to settle matters? Do you have one? Or do you just point out problems with bugger all thought to solutions.

williamabong

The people of NZ own it, it isn’t any politicians to give away.

Want to solve one of the major problems ?, get rid of the treaty. and stop the gravy train that it has become, as long as this remains as a cornerstone career choice for the grievance industry this country will never move ahead, hows that for a start?.

Dave

PLus 1 from me, a great start, one NZ, one set of people ALL receiving the SAME treatment.

Rangi

“The people of NZ own it” Pfft bullshit!, so the people of NZ own farms & all large land holdings? What you are promoting is even distribution of assets & land ie Communism. When it is well established that Maori go screwed over with dodgy land deals. The effects of which will never be fully recovered.

You are also promoting oppression by not allowing Maori to process valid claims.

Never picked you for a lefty idealist, are you sure you’re on the right blog?

Dave

Rangi, you replied to the wrong person, next time pick the correct person to reply to please.

Also, Mate seriously, your as bad as others on the treaty gravy train, “Process Valid Claims” Maori were not here, they took the land from others, why are there ANY valid claims.

Now, to put one of William’s comments another way ” Maori were a proud strong race/culture” …… Once were warriors, yes, once. Now, where are Maori after living high on the treaty gravy train and on the Benefit. Proud?? Warriors ??? Nup.

Please now see my post above, “one NZ, one set of people ALL receiving the same treatment” Just digest that for a few hours.

Rangi

Good point on the reply – my bad. Like it or not, we are stuck with the Treaty, the fact that so many want to just to arbitrarily disregard it is very concerning. In the normal course of events people have the right to go to court to substantiate a claim for damn near anything they can. These aren’t “Maori” rules so instantly Maori are at a disadvantage anyway.

In any civilised society, access to courts & adherence to legal precedence is fundamental and common to all citizens. Why do you & others seek to exclude Maori only from this basic human right?

williamabong

So why are we stuck with the treaty ?

Rangi

Because there is no viable alternative – your ridiculous idealism notwithstanding.

williamabong

Or perhaps it benefits one group in society that stand to gain from it, in spite of being the spawn of the original land thieves.

Rangi

You realise that everytime you write down “land thieves” there is more evidence of Pakeha carrying this out than Maori don’t you…

You are fucking deluded if you think the Treaty benefits Maori more than non-Maori. The fact that Maori are required to “Apply” for redress should be a hint as to weighted favour.

Phil

Other countries manage without a treaty. For NZ it just sucks resources and will keep us from progressing as long as it exists. The underlying premise of the treaty is a childish ‘Us and Them’, which can only cause division. You are either an ‘Us’ or a ‘them’.

Rangi

A more correct statement would be “there is not one single example in history of European adherence to a treaty they themselves have authored….ever!” So, yes we could have done without that evil but now Maori have no alternative but to work within that evil, skewed framework. Not content with that. you (and others) have the audacity to accuse Maori of being “childish” in dealing with it. – Is any of this truth registering with you?

Phil

No alternative?? What nonsense. How about a constitution that gave all citizens exactly the same rights regardless of the colour of their skin. Everyone is a New Zealander regardless of how or when they got here – and no group is better than any other group.

Dave

That might be too simple Phil, a society void of any discrimination, especially the term reverse racism. But, I am all for it.

Rangi

This blog is just littered with the discrimination you talk about – you’ve contributed your fair share of it. Make my day & say your views have matured :)

Rangi

Pardon me, but is there an alternative partnership arrangement Im not aware of? Or are you promoting an airey fairey ideal? It would be a disservice to all NZ to further subjugate Maori cultural value. Legislative sameness is OK, oppression is not – the difference is a gauntlet to be negotiated in good faith,

The shame is routinely, I am finding the will to do so is just absent

Phil

You are stuck on the idea of a partnership which is still based around the concept of ‘us and them’. This is the problem with the treaty in the first place and needs to be removed before NZ can progress as a nation.
This does not do any disservice to a particular culture and certainly doesn’t involve any oppression.

williamabong

Fuck Maori cultural value, we’ve had it rammed down our throats for long enough now, prime example the pigs arse the opening of the RWC became, what an embarrassment that became the rest of the world now think we live in trees and wear grass skirts.

Rangi

That’s what commercialisation does for you. I think we can all agree, that was not an example of Maori culture.

Dave

Rangi… Work……… now there is a thought!!

Rangi

Ohhh – Firey retort! How ever will I manage?

James

A viable alternative is surely to burn the treaty and simply state that all New Zealanders are equal under the eyes of the law?

Rangi

…and steps to implement your viable alternative? Allow me to save your time, This colour-blind utopia you dream of simply won’t happen and since Maori had nothing to do with the promises contained within the Treaty, Maori hardly can be blamed for working with it.

James

Step 1: collect copies of treaty
Step 2: pop down dairy for matches
Step 3: use matches to burn copies of treaty
Step 4: you are done – without the treaty the law pretty much treats everyone equally.

Rangi

Is this another example of Pakeha changing their minds & Maori then having to accommodate? Or, are you having a nice little day-dream?

James

No – it is a case of history having moved on and the terms of the treaty no longer being relevant. Which tends to happens with treaties.
And I don’t call Maori niggers so please don’t use derogatory terms when referring to New Zealanders such as myself.

Rangi

No offence intended. The relevance of the treaty is decided by democratically founded process. How can this be if Maori comprise only 14% of the population? Because many more non-maori than you decide it is worth persevering with. Which actually makes you an anomaly who, like the rest of us, must set our minds to working with it rather than getting all “independent” about it.

Dave

Rangi, I am sure a lot more people than you think would like to see the treaty binned.

For me, anything like this, ties maori back to beneficiaries, cutting the ties to the treaty liberates and frees Maori to prosper.

Think of it this way. The bets / guarantees are off, no more. Time to stand up, progress and prosper on your own merits. Make that language work, make your businesses work, train and educate your young etc etc. Fully utilise the resources provided by the state, the education and health system, then supplement that with your own resources, and really prosper.

The treaty should be burnt, if there was a poll asking three simple questions. I am positive most would say, burn it.

Rangi

So what would you do with the associated wealth tied up in the Treaty process? Wealth which has not been enjoyed, suspended, wrongly apportioned or otherwise with-held from the owners for 200 years? And if you say “Give it to the public” Im going to accuse you of being a Pinko, communist fool.

There is no principle, moral or otherwise, which suggests Maori should simply absorb that 200 year loss & associated damage or forego that potential value.

And it also may surprise you to find out the number of tax paying, well educated, motivated, Maori who posses the personal heft to realise those opportunities.

The chooks is comin’ home to roost

Dave

Rangi, to move forward you need to understand, not just what i have been saying, but a lot of others as well. Until Maori LET GO the past, it is an ANCHOR around all of them. LEt the whole treaty GRAVYTRAIN go, move forward to even greener pastures.

For the record, I acknowledge there are a good many very progressive, wealthy and self sufficient maori, I have worked with many, and one who i hold in very high regard was my boss. But, Rangi, a good many are LAzy Beneficiaries who wait till their next FREE handout, and milk the system for all it is worth. THe stats DONT lie, and the fact history tells us a subsidy, and any treaty settlements just hold back the recipients, go look through history.

Rangi

With no basis in fact, this just sounds like a convenient position for you to take Im sorry. Which will leave you languishing in doubt & self pity – address that then tell me how I can improve myself.

Dave

This isn’t about individuals, its about NZ coming together as one, with NO special treatment for any one group. If my use of “you” was taken as you personally, I apologize, poor wording on my part.

williamabong

I never picked you for a moron, just shows how wrong you can be.

Where did I say anything about farms or large land holdings, you and the plot are fast becoming strangers, what I did say is that Maori only claim to owning land in this country is via theft, and no politician has the right to hand over any tract of publicly owned land to any noisy self-interest group.

One other little point that most have missed is the current Minister for Treaty Negotiations is Christopher Finlaysson a man who made a name for himself as a lawyer against the crown for Ngai Tahu and owns the following quote

“Ngai Tahu mastered the art of aggressive litigation, whether it was suing the Waitangi Tribunal and [National Treaty negotiations minister] Doug Graham or the Director-General of Conservation. It was take no prisoners and it resulted in a good settlement.”[2] The signing of the Treaty deal with Ngai Tahu in 1997, he said in his maiden speech in parliament, was the highlight of his legal career.

Rangi

The thing is, Ngai Tahu didn’t do as well out of the deal as they should have. It’s telling that settlement portfolio was handed to Mr Finlayson by our current Prime Minister. That & what you have pointed out above implies that CF has the right credentials to argue on the Crown’s behalf – on that, we must agree surely…

Rangi

Why do you distinguish between farms, other large land holdings and Maori land?

Remember, if Maori substantiate a claim to land, and after exhaustive examination, the Crown reluctantly agree & it is returned – Maori have lost around 200yrs enjoyment and opportunity of that asset.

You think Maori should just give that away? Dream on ballbag.

Hazards001

Doug Graham is a cunt. Recent past events have proved he was a small man of limited intellect that was led by the fucking nose.

There will be a time in the future when Maori will curse his name for opening the doors of grievance that is currently leading so many Maori down the paths of handout and envy instead of self sufficiency, honour and worth.

Hazards001

“My view is that once given the tools to succeed, Maori will perform outstandingly & there are plenty of examples of that.”

What tools exactly have Maori been denied? The only tool of worth is education. That is available equally to all active participants in this country.

And don’t even think about giving me the bullshit about some get better access than others. I’m well aware of that…so what? All in all we have a system that is there for all comers and I’m actually sick and tired of hearing about your missing tools.

Speaking of missing tools…since you’re getting the land back that you actually sold for how about giving me back my axes. Not the dodgy Sandvik from the Stihl shop either. I want the original ones. You’re getting the original land!

williamabong

You wont get anything back from him, after spouting the pre rehearsed diatribe about marty being victims etc etc he runs out of steam, and still cant grasp the fact his ancestors are land thieves.

Rangi

There you go with the “land thieves” bit again, absent any evidence you just come off as a mad man. What we do have is plenty of evidence of Pakeha land thievery which is being addressed as best we can. Your problem being… what exactly?

Dave

Hope they have sharpened your shovel and looked after it well for you hazards, I mean look how well we have looked after OUR land we are giving them, especially compared to the condition your land was in when you gave up your shovel for it, seemed like a fair trade in those days.

Rangi

What ever you’re smoking, put it down now…the habit is getting the better of you. You’ve answered your own question, lost yourself in a petty point about tools – what response are you after?

Hazards001

You pointless ineffective bludging little blow arse.

1 I don’t touch drugs…not even Disprin

2 If I answered my own question then the discussion is over. If education is the tool and you have the same access to it as every other New Zealander and you do; then why are you still bitching moaning and putting your hand out and in the process destroying the economy and the people’s will to work towards a common future?

Rangi

“If I answered my own question then the discussion is over” – and you call me a blow arse! hahaa you’re funny…again, what response are you after?
It seems the education bit you treasure was taken advantage of by me a bit more that you huh?

Hazards001

You really are a halfwit aren’t you?

spollyike

Koha is not a donation, the definition is quite different from a donation and maori dislike the analogy of comparing it to one.

Koha is about reciprocity.

Rangi

What?? Taking a sudden interest in Maori concepts are we? Strictly speaking, I can accept your point, but it is not absolute & there is allowance for Koha without expectation.

spollyike

So as an analogy, you turned up to a marae with koha to help the host pay for a tangi and for some reason that tangi didn’t/could’nt happen and everyone went home. Wouldn’t the host marae then be obligated to give back the koha?

Rangi

Probably not as the good news is the deceased is alive & everyone would be happy to forgo the Koha in favour of that good news.

Half baked answer I guess. For me, I would not feel right asking for the Koha to be returned, that would be an affront to decency. It would be unreasonable to expect the Marae to account for everyone’s contribution & then make sure the proper amounts were refunded. Marae could always do with a few bucks for a lick of paint, new cookware & cutlery etc…so I would just say Kia Ora! – enjoy the environment happy in the knowledge I have contributed.

spollyike

Fair enough;)

Kimbo

“Strictly speaking, I can accept your point, but it is not absolute & there is allowance for Koha without expectation”.

OK. So for the same reason that politicians have to declare their assets and business connections (so that we know the potential reciprocity/quid pro quo relationships and hold the politician in question to account by means of the maxim “daylight is the best disinfectant”), should it not also be an obligation for those who have received and/or given koha to declare that as well?

And seeing we don’t currently have that system applied to koha (but we bloody well should!), isn’t a forum like this the best way to publicise it?

Or are Hone and his supporters going to get all precious, and tell pakeha it is none of their business, and they are simply ignorant and racist, because it is a “Maori thing”?

Rangi

No – you’re overthinking it. Koha should be fairly straightforward & unsophisticated. Given that there is no public money involved in this case, “daylight”, in my view, is not required. Its not like he deliberately set out to commit fraud and its not like its the order of sums involved in real fraud cases – I just think a little perspective is amiss and we are fighting fires which don’t really exist.

Kimbo

“Koha should be fairly straightforward & unsophisticated”

As is ownership of shares, or a stake in a business.

No, there wasn’t public money involved. However, I don’t think I am “overthinking it” to state that an obligation/sense of reciprocity is created whenever koha is given and accepted.

Which is something I want to know about when either a recipient or giver of koha runs for public office. Hone shows no charity, or consideration of good faith when John Key owns a portfolio of shares. OK, Hone, you nasty racist bastard, your supporters and candidates deserve no such obligation of good faith when they stand for public office.

Hone made the rules – but to be clear, that’s not a Maori thing, it’s a Hone thing. Why on earth Maori find it necessary to support or defend someone who is so evidently prepared to use their real troubles, and misuse their genuine aspirations for his won selfish ends is one of the mysteries of this country.

Rangi

I have no trouble relegating Hone to local body politics or to the dogs for all I care, as long as this insufferable harking back to his gaffe can please come to an end.

What Im saying is, Hone is irrelevant. Maori achievement will supersede him & his brand and it would be prudent to never ever mention him again when discussing Maori issues. Remember, he & Mana represent “the far left” more than he represents Maori.

Rangi

BTW – This is important to understand – He does not owe you, me, or anybody on this blog any explanation whatsoever.

Sarrs

At the very least he owes an explanation to the community that fundraised for his treatment. They donated in good faith, believing that the funds would be used for his treatment. The funds were not used for his treatment.

steve and monique

He could have donated the money to Hospice.Then it could have helped another patient,who did not get help from his community/iwi

Sarrs

I believe the circumstances surrounding this $12k are murky at best. Funds were raised via an art auction. People donating items and purchasing them did so to support Mr Nikora’s financial costs of private surgery. The surgery was performed for free by the ADHB who were assured by Mr Nikora that the funds raised would be distributed to charity and the community. He kept $12k for himself. The organisers of the auction said it was koha and he was free to keep it. Do they have the right to speak on behalf of the community to assisted with the fundraising? I say no. The article twice mentions Mr Nikora assuring other parties that the entire sum raised had been given to charity or the community. That was clearly a lie.

Mr Nikora was the one that called this a Maori thing, not a money thing. He is the one that brought race into it. Race is irrelevant here. My objection is on a moral level – I don’t believe Mr Nikora had the right to keep the money, I don’t believe the art school had the right to designate it as koha when the funds were raised via the public for a specific purpose and I believe it should have been donated to charity.

Has anything illegal occurred here? Doubtful. Is this behaviour immoral and befitting of one who wishes to represent his local community in parliament? Absolutely.

4077th

His facebook page is something to behold. There is even a post linked to a comment by sheep. The title of the link is along the lines of “better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an idiot than open it and remove all doubt” Oh the irony..

Lion_ess

…the Maori way ? Think he meant to say “the Mana way.

Hazards001

Which sums it up perfectly. Plus 1

Greg

Maori Way………Treaty Way. MMMMMMMMMMM rings a bell.

Tom

3 words.
theiving black cunt

StacyMcNaught

Shouldn’t you be ironing your white pointed hood?

Tom

Shouldn’t you be at the pub spending your dole ?

StacyMcNaught

Lazy prick, do some research before making dumass statements like that. I made my comment based on the FACT that you are racist (your earlier comment is case and point – no more research required). What is yours based on? Its easy to find out that I actually work for a living.

Aha ha

I see you’ve chosen to not print the full article in which the auction organiser states that they are happy for him to keep the balance.
Also i read you slagging off the NZ Herald. Seems to me that alot of the stuff on your website is word for word Herald. Just saying.