Well, well, well – look at this. Is the conversation about #rapeculture starting to take on a shade of sanity?

These two articles are only tangentially related to the main story today, but they demonstrate just how schizophrenic mainstream, feminist-influenced media has become.

This is Maria Kang, the mother of three children, who is *gasp* not a lardass, and who feels like other women can make the decision not to be lardasses themselves.

The horror!

She got called all kinds of names by women who feel “fat-shamed” by Maria and her three gorgeous sons and her sculpted abs and Maria is just such a bitch to point out that when it comes to weight, for most of us, it’s “your body, your choice”.

Could you pick a goddamn side here? Are we sexualizing actresses and forcing them to display their bodies in a totally demeaning way that simply needs to stop, or are we not? Is it only acceptable when fat women are sexualized? Why would that be? Do we have an agenda here, whereby fat lumpy women are the only acceptable objects of sexual desire?

The incoherence is turning the conversation about bodies and objectification and sexism into a joke that even the thickest plank can recognize.

And the same thing appears to finally be happening with #rapeculture. We have the “new Steubenville” all over the news today, with two young teenage girls alleging they were raped by local football stars, one of whom happens to be politically connected.

It’s the same story, all over again. Daisy liked Matthew and she found his attention flattering. Daisy and Paige got hammered one night and Daisy texted Matthew and a meeting was arranged. Everyone drank a whole lot of alcohol and sex happened. Rather than pledging his undying love for Daisy, Matthew took her home and left her semi-conscious on her front lawn in freezing temperatures.

That was a dick move, for sure.

But what if it hadn’t happened that way? What if Matthew had tucked her into his bottom bunk and wrapped her up in his favourite flannel sleeping bag and greeted her the next morning with some toast and tea and asked her to go steady?

Would it still be rape? Or just a hilarious story they recounted to the cheerleading squad about how it all began?

Maybe Matthew did rape Daisy. Maybe it all went down just as the two girls claim it did. Maybe it was straight up voracious sexual predator takes down innocent prey. The trouble with that story is that the PREY MADE HERSELF VULNERABLE.

Cue the screams of “victim-blaming”…. Don’t fucking bother leaving your comments on this blog, because I won’t publish them.

Wear your seatbelt. It’s a sensible precaution if you get in an accident. The accident may not be your fault, but it will be your fault if you get severely injured by failing to take that reasonable precaution.

Wear a helmet when you ride your bike. It’s a sensible precaution if you get in an accident. The accident may not be your fault, but it will be your fault if you get severely injured by failing to take that reasonable precaution.

It’s not victim-blaming. It’s victim-preventing.

And finally, some voices come out of the dark to state the obvious: Emily Yoffe at Slate earned herself a mountain of hate by writing The best rape prevention: tell college women to stop getting so wasted.

Young women are getting a distorted message that their right to match men drink for drink is a feminist issue.

As soon as the school year begins, so do reports of female students sexually assaulted by their male classmates. A common denominator in these cases is alcohol, often copious amounts, enough to render the young woman incapacitated. But a misplaced fear of blaming the victim has made it somehow unacceptable to warn inexperienced young women that when they get wasted, they are putting themselves in potential peril.

Emily’s solution to this problem is to try and move the cultural conversation towards attaching shame and stigma to being black-out wasted.

I don’t believe any of these statistics will move in the right direction until binge drinking joins smoking, drunk driving, and domestic abuse as behaviors that were once typical and are now unacceptable. Reducing binge drinking is going to require education, enforcement, and a change in campus social culture. These days the weekend stretches over half the week and front-loading and boot and rally are major extracurricular activities. Puking in your hair, peeing in your pants, and engaging in dangerous behaviors have to stop being considered hilarious escapades or proud war stories and become a source of disgust and embarrassment.

Fair enough. It really is getting rather nauseating, watching drunk young women act like base animals in the street. This girl is actually shitting on the sidewalk, in full view of pedestrians.

Seriously? Gross. Her friend joins her a few minutes later to urinate on the same piece of sidewalk. Disgusting.

I’m delighted to see Emily at least tackle the problem, but “stop binge drinking” is not going to work anymore than prohibition worked. The real solution is for both women and men to have a sense of loyalty and solidarity with their friends.

You never leave your man behind.

Or in this case, your woman.

It’s deeply ingrained in male culture. The Marine who drops back to help a little boy finish his 5K race. I defy you not to cry.

That feeling used to be part of female culture, too.

You play for a team, and you keep each other safe. Every person I know who is over the age of 30 greets that idea with “well, duh”. Why don’t young women do this anymore? Why don’t they protect each other, not from “ooh scary rapists lurking everywhere”, but from their own impaired judgement?

It must be partly because women simply don’t think they should be held responsible for impaired judgement, but also because the mantra of “strong, independent woman” forecloses the possibility of “stupid, irresponsible girl”.

Daisy and Paige were stupid. Paige is now coming forward with her story, claiming the boys “separated them and made them drink more”. Oh really? So they forcibly dragged you into separate rooms and sat on your chests and poured alcohol down your throats?

Apparently, there is video footage of at least one couple having sex. Perhaps it really does show an assault. Perhaps not. Whatever it shows, that shouldn’t stop us from pointing out that girls like Daisy and Paige and the Steubenville girl and every other girl who wakes up after a night of shit-faced idiocy feeling ashamed and grubby and used played a part in her own degradation.

Thank you, Emily, for bringing the conversation more into the mainstream. I hope she doesn’t get fired for stating the obvious, but you know, I won’t be surprised if she does. Wait ‘til Amanda Marcotte reads that piece!

There’s gonna be a storm of cackling witches over at Slate, out for Emily’s blood! Poor dear. Take a page from the British Bulldog, and hold fast.

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.

” Rather than pledging his undying love for Daisy, Matthew took her home and left her semi-conscious on her front lawn in freezing temperatures.” Because it has to be one or the other? There’s no middle ground where the guy shows respect, if not romance? You’ve said in previous posts that a man knows not to hurt a woman. Yet here you equate their actions to that of a car crash, and whether or not women buckle up for safety, we’re establishing that this is dangerous. You argue the women should be accountable for putting themselves in danger, which I agree with, but ignore the fact that the danger exists. What kind of man encourages a woman to get plastered and has sex with her when she’s too wasted to say no? I don’t subscribe to the victim mentality; I do believe women should look out for themselves and their friends and verbalize “No” in no uncertain terms. But if you’re having sex with someone who is unable to speak, fight back, understand what’s happening, you are a rapist. Why is that detail being glazed over like it doesn’t exist?

She may not have been that plastered when they actually had sex. What if he was just as drunk? Who raped whom then?

Sarah

Given that he physically brought her home and she was “semi-conscious” it’s pretty clear that she was incapacitated for the event itself. Believe me, I don’t subscribe to the “you can’t consent when drunk” mythology. But there’s drunk, and then there’s practically unconscious. And there have been cases where men were too hammered to resist and girls raped them. These are less appreciated because they’re the minority and they go underreported. I agree we should safeguard against reckless partying and dangerous intoxication. But that level of inebriation doesn’t negate consent.

actually, I consider getting drunk to be consent for what happens afterwards.

James Thrice

Bingo. You’re still liable for vehicular homicide if you hit someone with your car while drunk. Even if you pass out behind the wheel (I say this because passed out drunk is feminist mantra for ‘it’s not my fault’).

Wayne

Attorneys are suing the men who buy drinks for women for the death these women cause.

Bars in Texas are also getting sued over over-serving women, like the Clive Bar is for Gabrielle Nestande who murdered a pedestrian while drunk. According to the boyfriend, Gabrielle knew she hit someone, but left the scene, and then hid at her boyfriend’s house, leaving a woman to die in the side of the road. Clive Bar is being sued, even though she first drove to her boyfriend’s house, *then* left his apartment and killed someone.

So, no. Too often, women are not fully accountable for being drunk and stupid, or drunk and dangerous.

Wilson

Effects of drinking aren’t immediate. She could have been running around for the past hour before crashing. On the other hand, she could have been passed out as if dead for the past hour, with “semi-conscious” being an improvement.

Goober

You Obviously don’t understand over drinking. She could have had enough to drink to be a full participated in this situation and then passed out afterwards.

It is as cut and dry as you’re trying to paint it

Master Beta

“But if you’re having sex with someone who is unable to speak, fight back”

I’m over 6 foot and over 200lbs. Every woman I’ve ever had sex with has been “unable to fight back”

Goober

How do you know that the maryhill woman was so incapacitated?

Is your assumption that she was more or less intellectually honest than jbs posing the other possibility :

That she was functioning participant who was drunk enough to either not remember that, or that she damn well remembers what happened and she’s just ashamed that she let herself be used?

Either of those options would preclude rape, you realize thar, right?

So why is it that you automatically assume that a 17 year old is a rapist when other, more reasonable explanations exist?

Incredibly stupid feminist shithead 1: I cant begin to imagine this tragedy! and how people with power can really destroy this family
Badger Brigadon: This is what is known as a ‘reactionary article’

WE do not have enough evidence to pronounce a verdict. all we know is that after the prosecutor watched the video, he pronounced that there was not enough evidence for a trial.

She is a minor, we will NEVER see the video. If it goes to trial, the video WILL be seen. For all we know, the prosecutor might have been protecting her by not allowing the video to become evidence. NO ONE wants a repeat of Rehtaeh Parsons.

All I know is that there was NO way her mom should have let her, a sophomore, go to a beer blowout with a bunch of seniors.
23 hours ago · Like
Liberal Buddy: You’re right. And I reacted. But there are a lot of aspects of it that are pretty fucked up even without all of the facts.
23 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
Badger Brigadon: Oh yeah, I just think that it’s less ‘blaming the victim’ and more ‘the situation was fucked up and EVERYONE did something stupid.’

The mother screwed up by letting her daughter run wild. the daughter screwed up by attending a party that she NEVER should have approached and…well…getting fucked up. and the boy screwed up by not knowing…er…not demand…err…well, by sleeping with an unknown girl that was kinda drunk at a party, without checking her drivers license for ID? I guess. and then not checking on her when he dropped her off to make sure she made it from the car to…uhh.. that she got inside the house okay.

Now, I personally think the boy screwed up BIG time by offering a strange girl some drinks and then sleeping with her. I think he should have gotten the crap kicked out of him by his father. but do I think he committed ‘rape’? I don’t think there is enough evidence for US to judge… and frankly, we have no RIGHT to judge something like this. The ones who do, did. Without more evidence that we have no right to peruse, we cannot render a meaningful judgement.

‘If’ she was raped, do I think she ‘deserved it’? hell no. Just like I don’t think that some drunk guy that stumbles out onto thin ice by mistake ‘deserves’ to fall through the ice and die. But I WILL say that bad things happen all the time, and it’s flat out stupid and inexcusible to go inviting those things with incredibly irresponsible behavior.
22 hours ago · Like
Badger Brigadon: The world is a mean place. and it’s up to us to protect ourselves and our children. Some things we cannot prevent, but if we do not prevent the things we CAN, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
22 hours ago · Like
Liberal Buddy: I guess that in this case we just have to “trust” in the system.
22 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
incredibly stupid feminist shithead 2: she is a minor, didn’t give consent, was intoxicated to the point she couldn’t hold her head up, then it’s crystal clear, he committed statutory rape. It doesn’t matter whether her mother was irresponsible or the girl drunk heavily, he committed a sexual assault crime. My heart goes out to the young victim and her family who had to be driven out of their town.
22 hours ago · Edited · Like · 4
liberal Buddy: I think that even if she did give consent, it would still be rape since she was a minor. His not knowing is just ignorance. I’m not sure that ignorance is an excuse for the law.

I was being sarcastic earlier about trusting in the system. I think it is more likely that the kid’s family used their influence to make things go their way. Having the family’s house burnt down and chased out of town without a job would support that notion. We cannot know for sure, but that seems more likely to me. The richer you are,the more you can “trust” in the system .
21 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
Badger Brigadon: “Buddy”-
No, we don’t. we just have to make sure that as untrustworthy and insane as the system is, we protect ourselves and don’t trust the system to protect us.

the system is only as trustworthy as it’s weakest link. we simply have to learn to behave like responsible adults and NOT allow things to get out of hand.

Look, “incredibly stupid feminist shithead 2″ – The boy was also a minor. Statutory rape was NOT involved in the case.

Keep your heart in your chest. if you truly believe that ” It doesn’t matter whether her mother was irresponsible or the girl drunk heavily” then you need all the ‘heart’ you can get.
21 hours ago · Like
Badger Brigadon: “Buddy”- I agree, we know nothing.

I am far less inclined than most to trust someone’s ‘word’ that they were abused considering how often I have seen the instinctive leap to protect perverted. I am not sure if you know much about my life, but trust m…See More
21 hours ago · Like · 1
Liberal Buddy: @Brian: While I find that your perspective can be in extreme opposition to mine at times, I enjoy reading your posts as they do tend to balance out my own extremism. You bring up some good points that encourage me to think about things from a different perspective.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2
incredibly stupid feminist shithead 3: I haven’t read the blog post, but I pretty much thought having sex with anyone under the influence of anything could be considered rape, as the intoxicated party is incapable of truly giving consent under the influence. Therefore, the “boy screwed up” the minute he instigated a sexual act with her, regardless of the age of either party. I can’t believe in this day and age, that is even still under discussion.
19 hours ago · Like · 3
incredibly stupid feminist shithead 2: the suggestion that the victim (character, behaviors) might have in some way contributed to getting raped is simply wrong. No one deserves to be raped, not even someone who is a prostitute. Hope the victim is able to heal from this tragedy.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Badger Brigadon: ‘unable to give consent’ and ‘rape’ are two completely different things.
When I was in Somalia, I saw the results of ‘real rape’. Women with their faces smashed open, lower bodies practically torn open, beaten half (and in several cases, all the way) to death, broken and shattered bodies.

Rape is a horrific, monstrous thing that often results in death or permanent disfigurement.

However. “I got drunk and had sex” rape and “I just couldn’t say no” rape and “Just before he came I had second thoughts” Rape and “I woke up next to a guy I really wish i hadn’t slept with” rape are NOT rape…. trying to lump them in the same boat with a brutal violation completely devalues and trivializes ‘actual’ rape.
about an hour ago · Like
Badger Brigadon “incredibly stupid feminist shithead 2”- No offense, but you are a fucking nut. If you leave your house unlocked expect to get robbed. if you wander into the Congo naked expect to get murdered. If you jump off a fucking cliff expect to hit the bottom. if you go to a frat party and get drunk off your ass in front of a bunch of teenaged boys expect to get crap done to you while you are out.

I am not excusing the boys for what they did, but I am also NOT excusing the girl for making a fucking stupidass decision that ANYONE would recognize would most likely lead to a bad situation.
54 minutes ago · Like
Liberal Buddy: I don’t think that “incredibly stupid feminist shithead 2” is a nut. She just has a higher standard for human interaction. Somalia has a rather low standard and not one to be followed. If “incredibly stupid feminist shithead 2” was in Somalia, I’m sure that she (as well as I) would behave accordingly. But here in the civilized world, we have a different expectation for how people should treat each other.

It is good to know the difference between violent treatment and rape. Rape can occur without violence and is considered to be a violation of a sexual nature. What you describe seeing in Somalia, is much more than rape – it is a rape plus assault, murder, battery, etc.

I cannot the judge that the young teenage girl in the story knew better. We as adults should, but lots of kids are sheltered or prone to think the best of people they like. I doubt this girl went to the party thinking she could get raped and was likely horrified after it happened. It is often easy to project what we find obvious onto others – especially in hindsight.
30 minutes ago via mobile · Like · 2
incredibly stupid feminist shithead 3: Actually, Badger Brigadon, lack of consent IS rape. It may not be the horror to which you have been exposed in Somalia, but here in the USA, consent is vital. I am personally disgusted that you feel an extreme lack of judgement on the part of the victim makes it any less rape. What you describe as rape is not simply rape, but also assault verging on murder or at least attempted murder. Don’t trivialize basic definitions of rape just because you have witnessed rape and assault to the point of murder.
26 minutes ago via mobile · Like · 2
Badger Brigadon: “Buddy”, ‘expectations’ do not excuse foolish actions.
19 minutes ago · Like
Liberal Buddy: @Brian: agreed. But it is not fare to compare the actions of a college girl to a young teenage girl. The expectations are not the same.
16 minutes ago via mobile · Like
Badger Brigadon No, that is exactly why I have been saying that the MOTHER bears blame as well.

WHY was this girl at a senior party?
Why wasn’t she at home like most 14 year old girls?
Why did her best friend ditch her?
WHY did she drink alcohol? Didn’t she know that she could get drunk?
Why wasn’t she at home, like most other 14 year old girls?
Why wasn’t her mother monitoring her? Did she have a cell phone?
Why wasn’t there an adult at the party?

These questions are VITAL. That’s why i try to keep saying that none of us has the information to make an informed decision or to assign blame.

Dumbass liberal feminist 3: Why is the onus on the behavior of the female party alone? Where is the list of questions about the males involved and their poor choices/behaviors? Don’t be sexist.

And this is why I LOVE arguing with ‘progressives’. It would be tougher if their heads weren’t so far up their asses that their ears were coming out of their ears 🙂
16 minutes ago via mobile · Like

WHY was this girl at a senior party?
Why wasn’t she at home like most 14 year old girls?
Why did her best friend ditch her?
WHY did she drink alcohol? Didn’t she know that she could get drunk?
Why wasn’t she at home, like most other 14 year old girls?
Why wasn’t her mother monitoring her? Did she have a cell phone?
Why wasn’t there an adult at the party?

1)Because she’s a teenager and many teens like hanging around folk older than them. It probably makes them feel older and cooler
2)Who knows….
3)Because she’s a teenager. Some teens get a thrill doing things that are seen as forbidden (which makes me wonder about teens overseas where the legal age to drink alcohol is much lower – they seem to have more of a handle on it). Maybe she didn’t know her limit, maybe she did.
4)Because she’s a teenager. Teens have been known to sneak out the house.
5)Good question
6)Good question again

I’m all for getting the facts concerning the case, but I don’t see how they these questions can help in making informed decisions or deciding if rape did occur. The only things I get out of these question is that the girl made poor decisions, her friend is lame if she did indeed ditch her, the mom’s attentiveness is in question (although she could’ve been very attentive and still her daughter could have been able to sneak out), and parties like these should always be supervised. All these things are obvious. As for blame, if rape occurred then only the rapist is to blame.

All things considered, the girl was not harmed in any way. Did she get VD? Did she get injured? hell, she didn’t even lose her virginity. Sure, she ‘almost’ got hurt, but ‘almost’ doesn’t involve sending a teenaged boy to jail for twenty five years where he will be raped anally every single day and most likely murdered.

The only ‘injury’ she recieved was to her pride. The ‘villains’ here are the ones trying to convince her that instead of learning her goddamned lesson about going to parties, trying to ‘score’ with mister popular, and getting drunk off her ass, that her ‘life is eternally ruined’, and that ‘rape is worse than death’ and that she has to put herself out as a public victim… she’s tried to kill herself (supposedly) twice. That can ONLY be the result of a studied campaign of terror forcing her to believe that she was permanently ‘ruined’ by a momentary mistake and it’s consequences.

She’s not trying to kill herself because a boy took advantage of her stupidity, but because there is a STUDIED CAMPAIGN of people trying to force her to believe that she is ‘eternally ruined’, her ‘life is over’, and she is ‘an eternal victim’ and ‘permanently damaged’.

Jesus, feminists make me SO sick. They are not going to be happy until every person on the planet is a twisted, psychologically-damage mockery of a human being.

Tyler

This is just old school politics at its finest. Not enough enemies for you to fight? Make some. Not enough criminals for you to “get tough” on? Make some. Not enough victims for you to stand on the moral high ground of valiantly defending? Make some.

Rex Little

Did she get frostbite after being dumped outside her house in freezing weather dressed in nothing but sweat pants and a tee shirt? YES! Even if you ignore the rape, the boy should have been charged with reckless endangerment for that. And if his politically connected grandpa hadn’t called in favors, he would have been.

The whole Maria Kang thing only proves that fat shaming works. It may not get the lardos out of the fridge and into the gym, but it definitely strikes a deep, resonant chord and the burning shame propels them to lash out in fury. Kang’s response was spot on, and bears repeating:

What you interpret is not MY fault. It’s yours. The first step in owning your life, your body and your destiny is to OWN the thoughts that come out of your own head. I didn’t create them. You created them. So if you want to continue ‘hating’ this image, get used to hating many other things for the rest of your life.”

But the response to the Melissa McCarthy photo isn’t as Janus-faced as it seems. These are just different views of the same side of the coin: Calling out the shambling land-whales cannot be tolerated because the goal of feminism is for society and it’s members to approve, laud, validate, and celebrate the wildebeest’s bad choices.

While I bear no ill-will toward McCarthy, I don’t find her particularly funny and from what little I’ve seen of her, I don’t think very highly of her acting skills. She seems moderately talented and known mainly for her “feisty” attitude and willingness to make fun of the fact that she’s fat. An aggressive, in-your-face fat woman: of course the feminists celebrate her. I’ve seen ads for some new comedy show about another fat woman making fun of being fat (of course the feminists won’t call that one out, will they). I refuse to watch it or anything McCarthy’s in.

Quite frankly, we could use more fat shaming. You don’t get self-esteem points for being fat; it’s not an accomplishment…

JB, thanks for another great piece. I’m a huge admirer of Winston Churchill and a huge quotations fan too, so I was knocked out by the quotation at the end, which I hadn’t read before. I don’t suppose you have a source? I’ll google it, if not.

It must be partly because women simply don’t think they should be held responsible for impaired judgement…

It is exactly that. Children only grow into adults when someone begins expecting more of them. If you never expect more from someone, through direct confrontation about a failure to perform, they never grow up.

Seems another Steubenville is brewing in Missouri. I guess feminists are also unaware/in denial of the fact that obesity is a serious health risk. Feminists seem more desperate and childish with each passing day. Also I, as I am sure along with many others, have grown beyond sick and tired of feminists dogmatic rape culture nonsense to make their world a unicorn utopia free of self responsibility. Had more than my fill of the feminist cock police victimology…

RS

What really bothers me about these stories is that all it takes is an allegation of rape for a digital lynch mob to form.

Ever since the Duke Lacrosse team case came to pass, I’ve become skeptical about anything in the media called rape. One thing being a prosecutor taught me is that the public never has all the facts. And many of the facts are held close to the prosecutors chest for a reason. No, I am not talking about withholding excuplatory Brady materials.

Assuming these facts are …..well…..facts, then I doubt these girls stories

Around 1 a.m., the teens slipped out a bedroom window and were met by Barnett and another boy, who drove them three miles to the Barnett house.

Around 2 a.m., the girls were driven back to the Coleman house, where, the 13-year-old said, the boys told her to go on inside, saying they would watch over Daisy outside until she sobered up.

So, within an hour, they were picked up, got shitfaced drug, had sex, then were dropped off? I smell bullshit. Someone is lying. And if it is the girls that are lying, then you can damn well bet a good attorney is going to hammer that issue either in a deposition or at a trial.

I going to step out on a limb and point out the obvious. Your genitals don’t matter when you are blacked out drunk. Something bad is going to happen to you. It may be rape, it may be just someone will steal your wallet. Whatever it is, you’re not going to like it.

So nobody really has the “right” to get that drunk in public. You want to tie one on? Go home. Hide your car keys from yourself, unload any weapons, and go for it.

But gender really doesn’t matter here. Getting shitfaced in public is not going to end well for you.

Memphis

You’ve got serious balls Judgybitch and you’re AWESOME for that. Thank you to all the fierce people who dare to tackle the elephants in the room.

Maybe Matthew did rape Daisy. Maybe it all went down just as the two girls claim it did. Maybe it was straight up voracious sexual predator takes down innocent prey. The trouble with that story is that the PREY MADE HERSELF VULNERABLE….

Wear your seatbelt. It’s a sensible precaution if you get in an accident. The accident may not be your fault, but it will be your fault if you get severely injured by failing to take that reasonable precaution.

Wear a helmet when you ride your bike. It’s a sensible precaution if you get in an accident. The accident may not be your fault, but it will be your fault if you get severely injured by failing to take that reasonable precaution.

It’s not victim-blaming. It’s victim-preventing.

I get what you’re saying and I agree that teaching precautions is important. You can’t really PREVENT rape – it can happen no matter what precautions you take. I think that’s the problem that so many people have. In some discussions of rape preventions/precautions, people act like if someone does or doesn’t do “this” then rape surely won’t happen, and if rape did occur, then the victim MUST have done something to put themselves in that situation. Hindsight is always 20/20. Why do people go into a woulda/shoulda/coulda after a rape incident?

People always talk about what the victim did or didn’t do in cases of rape. I rarely see this happen in cases of other crimes. Why do we keep bringing it up? We can talk about what the victim should or shouldn’t have done until we’re blue in the face. If rape did occur, it’s still a crime.

Yes Daisy may have made herself vulnerable, but it really doesn’t change anything because, again, if rape did occur, then a crime was still committed.

Z

The reason they go for the “woulda coulda shoulda” thing for date-rape (I’m emphasizing date here because we need something to seperate the brutal forcible rape and this) is because the girl got herself into a situation through her own free will.

If a man got shitfaced at a wild party and woke up without his wallet and watch we would both acknowledge that a crime occurred and that he knew there was an option he could have taken that would not have led to this.

A woman raped on her walk home from work will never get that kind of cynical apathy. Not even a roofied woman will. This is a horse of a different color and you have to admit this.

Nicky

You know why you rarely see it in other crimes, Renee? Because no one is arguing *against* it being a factor, or calling it victim blaming. If someone leaves their house unlocked, and it’s burgled, everyone realises that they did a rather dumb thing, and no one tries to pretend that the house being unlocked was utterly irrelevant to the crime. If a large group of people tried to claim that, since a locked house CAN be burgled, it makes no difference whether or not you lock up, you’d see a lot more people pointing out that it WAS a factor, and they’d be accused of being ‘burglar apologists’ for doing so. As it is, no one bothers to point it out, because it’s common sense and common knowledge, and it’s assumed to be understood that the victim could’ve done things differently and probably not become a victim as a result.

I think you’re seeing it backwards. There is no one saying that staying sober = complete immunity from rape, or being passed out drunk = rape isn’t a crime. But people DO say that being drunk = irrelevant. And THAT is what is being disputed.

Daisy making herself vulnerable doesn’t change *anything*? Obviously it doesn’t change the blame for any crime that occurs (the alcohol level of anyone involved in crime – victim or perpetrator – doesn’t absolve the criminal of blame.) It often, however, changes whether or not the crime occurs in the first place!

Anne

Renee, you said:”People always talk about what the victim did or didn’t do in cases of rape. I rarely see this happen in cases of other crimes. Why do we keep bringing it up? We can talk about what the victim should or shouldn’t have done until we’re blue in the face. If rape did occur, it’s still a crime.”

Because people are not expected to derive pleasure from having a car crash, being robbed or getting beaten up.

Having sex can be pleasurable and the craving for it is not an alien sensation to a drunk future ‘victim’.
There is, more as with other crimes, a big chance that the victim has made many suggestions that made it very difficult for the perp to see what he does as rape.That is why the precautions taken by the victim matter.

I come from the Netherlands, where you can drink from the age of 16, and I quit drinking half a year after my sweet sixteenth. Not because my parents said so, but because I didn’t like the way I acted when I was drunk.
(I am usually very wary around strangers, but when I am drunk I go all giggly, enjoy all male attention and need the constant supervision of friends to not end up in a tickle fight with the homeless man on the corner.)

There is, more as with other crimes, a big chance that the victim has made many suggestions that made it very difficult for the perp to see what he does as rape.That is why the precautions taken by the victim matter.

Well in this case both male and females need to be more aware of issues surrounding rape and consent. As for those who fully well intend to rape regardless, taking precautions is key.

Apollo

Issues such as whether rape is a crime or not, or whether the rapist is “to blame” or not, are not in debate here. Rape is a crime and rapists accept all the blame if they rape someone.

The point of analyzing the victims behavior leading up to a rape is to obtain intelligence so that the victim, and other people like them, can learn to decrease their chances of being raped in the future. For example, you might make correlations between activities such as getting blackout drunk on the one hand, and getting felt up by strangers when you pass out on the other.

And yes, you can prevent rape. Not all rape, that’s impossible, but you can certainly prevent specific instances of it. Its unlikely that this girl would have been raped (presuming for the sake of argument that’s what happened) if just a few of the decisions that were made on that night had been better ones. We can still say that without absolving any responsibility at all on the part of the male perpetrator.

Id like to think this conclusion would be obvious to anyone if feminists hadn’t obfuscated this issue so badly with their mindless screeching about victim blaming. I also think that this is why it seems that rape is the only crime where we talk about this sort of thing is because of this fact as well – all the fuss surrounding the issue makes it more noticable when anyone even hints that a rape victim (real or imagined) might have done something to put herself in a compromising position. No one thinks twice about questioning the actions of people who do dumb stuff that leads to other bad outcomes.

Cid

I always think it’s incredibly cruel to deny young people, those who are the most at risk for this sort of thing, the knowledge to protect themselves better. Everyone screeches “victim blaming!” and any useful information is not divulged.

My friend used to give out pamphlets at university (for the health clinic iirc) that had tips on them to reduce one’s risk of being victimized. Things like using the buddy system, not getting drunk with people you don’t know, etc. The feminists on campus put the kibosh on that entirely and basically left 18 year old kids to try to navigate all that shit on their own.

Part of the reason I’m convinced that feminists actually hate other women quite a lot.

Apollo

Do Feminists hate women? Perhaps. Their actions in many ways at least show that they are indifferent to a number of the negative outcomes women face that seem to directly result from Feminism.

I think something else is the culprit in this case though – conflicting interests. Some Feminist, I think it was Hannah Rosin, recently wrote an article about how important “hook up culture” was to Feminisms goals of equality. Hook up culture provides a rather unsatisfactory, but passably effective way of giving women some of the male companionship that they crave while avoiding the longer term committed relationships that tend to get in the way of women’s career aspirations. Women having babies leads negatively impacts their career progression which in turn delays the Feminist goal of “equal” representation of the genders in the workplace. So hook up culture helps avoid women getting into long term relationships, but its inherently unsatisfactory for most women, and generally needs to be fueled by hefty doses of drunken binging, and by women having a more casual attitude towards sex. Telling women that they should avoid binge drinking and being too casual about their sexual encounters in order to avoid potential rape, might also disrupt hookup culture and therefore some of Feminisms more “important” goals.

What’s a few girls getting raped when measured against the goal of equality? Especially when the rapes just provide more ammunition against men anyway…

Cid

Yeah I don’t think it is hate that they conciously know about.. more like them saying “our views must happen at any cost,” even if the cost is women themselves. Putting women in danger, trivializing real rape, etc.. not important.

I’d say this sort of thing is what will destroy feminism in the end though. Telling women to not get attached (hook up culture) and pushing men away is not a good basis for creating the next generation.

We are rapidly figuring out that single mothers are a bad idea and women who have kids otherwise typically don’t cling all THAT hard to feminism. That plus the hardcore feminists (and men who are fed up) never having children will mean their ideas die out.

Actually with many on the internet rapidly catching on to how bullshit it is and the growing strife within their own groups, we might not even have to wait for them to actually kick the bucket.

Ahem, sorry for the sort of off topic tangent there.

Apollo

Yes, I’d agree that Feminism is a self correcting problem as you describe. Its just a pity that its going to screw stuff up for so many people, including many of us, until that happens.

Tyler

So, I’ve read the replies to this comment, and it seems to be a pretty tricky question to answer: how much blame do we put on the chick who put herself in that situation?

I think it’s difficult to answer because a question is being left out, which determines whether there’s any blame to assign in the first place: was the man drunk as well? JB has touched on this (insightfully) before, but here’s my take.

If the man is drunk to a level comparable to the woman, then the ‘drunk isn’t consent’ argument is invalid. This is because the crux of that argument is that, when drunk, you don’t possess the mental faculty to not get conned. It’s the same premise as why an adult (male or female) that has sex with a child is automatically the guilty party, and rightly so: the adult is undoubtedly more cunning than the child, and the child cannot form reasoned consent about the issue. But two minors having sex is not considered a crime, and two children playing doctor is something parents laugh about.

The point here is, if a drunk woman is seduced by a sober man, maybe the argument of ‘taking advantage’ holds weight, although it’ll still be a cold day in hell before I morally equate ‘drag you into the bushes’ rape with ‘took advantage of a slutty drunk’ rape. But if the man is drunk too, how can you argue that he was of sound enough mind to con her? To say he was is to imply that men are inherently intellectually superior to women, which is again that “I’m strong/independent when I want to be, but protect me when I want you to” hypocrisy.

Two drunk people having (drunkenly) consensual sex is not and never will be rape. Terrible decision, maybe, but as long as Honey Boo Boo is a show, terrible decisions are still legal.

Apollo

If the guy was drunk when sex occurred, then clearly he was incapable of giving his consent and was therefore raped.

I know a woman who was semi-raped when she was 17, then admitted she saw the guy for a while after that. It reminds me of Mike Tyson, who did rape the woman, but she didn’t claim it for days afterward….because Mike didn’t call the next day.

They are against “rape” prevention and informing women about strategies for avoiding situations where “rape” might happen because women taking responsibility for themselves might lessen the pool of available “victims” to exploit. It should be their motto:

Feminism Needs More Victims: Take One for the Team and Get Blackout Drunk at the Nearest Frat Party!

Do these boneheads think that Melissa McCarthy, a famous A-List actress who carries a lot of clout, had no say whatsoever in the choice of clothing for the Elle photoshoot? That the photographer threw a trenchcoat at her and said “wear this!” She very likely picked it out herself. And she looks awesome in it.