Inter-racial Relationships

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In regards to the black lesbian community, I was wondering what other black womyn felt, about black womyn only dating outside of their race...I know some womyn, who exclusivley only date womyn of other races..this always forces me to think, of the larger issues at hand...one, not being able to deal with a womyn belonging to your own race is somewhat a form of self-hatered, (IN MY OPINION!!!!!!! Don't Bite my head off if you don't agree) and two, limiting yourself to a certain group of people...because of outward preferences....and certain apperarences, is sort of biased..

I guess my whole question is that, are black lesbian womyn stimulated by the same things that black men are forced to digest: i.e. the blond hair, blue eyes, type of being?..now I'm not trying to say that black womyn who love womyn are trying to be like black men...I was just wondering, what some womyn of color felt about interacial dating...and media stimulation...drop a line...

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I mean personally....I really love black womyn....there's just something that's so fresh about them...and I guess that all comes from me LEARNING to love and take care of myself...I also love the very intimate, very, very sexual things that turn me on about a black woman...that is just the way I feel..

In regards to the black lesbian community, I was wondering what other black womyn felt, about black womyn only dating outside of their race...I know some womyn, who exclusivley only date womyn of other races..

Hey ZimbaBwe..

I haven't actually met any black women (or women of colour) who only date "outside" of their "race". All the women of colour I presently know are doing so - but not as something they decided to do (i.e. there was no declaration of only dating other folks of colour or white folks).

I'm sure there are folks who do so. I find it interesting that the male/gay community has a gazillion racist words about racial desire (heard of snow queen? rice queen? etc.) but when it comes to women, we seem less likely to discuss this...I mean, what about all the white women who only date black women? (i.e. blackophiles as one person I knew calls them). I am just as concerened about them...

I do think that internalized racism has a lot to do with our choice of partners..most definitely. Most of us 'come out' in spaces that are mainly white (at least I did) or search for community that represents us, only to find homophobia in our own communities and intense racism in queer communities. There is a need to 'conform', to translate our queerness into something intelligible for both of those communities, to organize our desire in similar ways.

So then what happens... desire is colonized. We find ourselves unattractive, those who look like us as unnatractive and search for what we have been told is beautiful...And that harms us most definitely, but it is something many of us work through. Desire is always shaped by outside relations of oppression - classism, ablism, racism, transphobia! I don't think I 'get off' on race or that it makes me feel sexier or what have you to be with a black woman (as you are mentioning), but I think I find respect and acceptance and acknowledgement in queer communities of colour that is so very important - no matter what partner I choose.

"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

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" Most of us 'come out' in spaces that are mainly white (at least I did) or search for community that represents us, only to find homophobia in our own communities and intense racism in queer communities."

For all of those members on this website who insist that "the blacks" are constantley "crying about racism in amerika", and just "need to get over 400 years of oppression and police brutality", or better yet "leave my country if you hate it so", Please save the annoying racist comments for another thread...I am simply posting this thread, so that I can learn from other women of color and how they deal with different area's of discrimination.....thanks...no harm done.

Zami...thank you so much for your reply....this is one of the issues that I am facing right now...I am currently dealing with white women in my community, who exclusivley date only black women...my argument stands as...when one individual, decides to date outside of their race...this action of dating out...DOES NOT exclude that same person from being the biggest racist against members of the same community....the topic of racism, doesn't, or I should say, is not brought up within the gay community enough because people believe, that if you are gay, then that means you should be somewhat less aggresive to those, who also undergo a history of discrimnation: i.e. black Africans in amkerika....I am slowly learning that this is not the case at all.

Living in Brooklyn, I am constantly bombarded with (as I have stated before) white-liberal bullshit...those members of the gay and lesbian community who shout at the top of their lungs for Civil Rights...for queer womyn...but at the same time participate in things like Urban Renewal, in which members of poor communities are driven out of their homes, because "a new trendy dollar is being offered for it" and the most common, Regentification of poor black urban communititesin New York. A good book is Being Black, Living In the Red, by Dalton Conely...

There are so many topics to discuss, in terms of black womyn who love other black womyn, and the like...I was wondering, how do you deal with the blantant, white racism in your community...I live in one of the worst parts of Brooklyn...and there is a large population of lesbian womyn...in particular, white womyn who feel that the "niggers", should either "fight to preserve this country or leave"...drop a line....

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"but when it comes to women, we seem less likely to discuss this...I mean, what about all the white women who only date black women? (i.e. blackophiles as one person I knew calls them)". I am just as concerened about them...

Zami I have never heard that term before...but I guess I learn something new everyday....do you think that womyn in both the black and white community, gay and str8, tend to shy away from discussions dealing with racial issues...like womanism vs. feminism....and other issues?

Just wondering if you feel that people have a choice in whom they are attracted to. Women who only date women who seem to fall into the same ethnic or racial group might be doing this because they are attracted to a few particular physical qualities.

I personally don't see anything wrong with being attracted to someone for a particular physical quality, I don't think you can control physical attraction. If you could, that would justify the huge group of people out there who believe that you CHOOSE to be gay, and the "why can't they just choose to be normal" mentality.

That being said, I think it is stupid to consciously say "I exclude this whole group of people from my dating pool." That speaks of a political agenda or trying to make a statement instead of true biological or social attraction.

"Where are you now? I'm trying to get by with never knowing at all. What is the chance of finding you out there? Or do I have to wait forever?"
~Michelle Branch

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Carrie I totally understand what you are saying...my inital argument rests on the images that are specifically given to the black community, and to all women of color around the world...gay and str8, who are so bombarded with a certain image of beauty...that they only choose to date members of that arena...for example...the media, especially amerikan media...stimulates women, to view themselves in terms of the blond-haired, blue eyed type of beauty...I was saying that because all womyn black and white are given these images...it is to no wonder, that certain members of the gay community choose to only date, what they consider to be "beautiful"...I don't know about little white girls...I just KNOW for a fact that little black girls are taught to hate their apperence, before they even learn how to formulate a complete sentence....

There are a pleothra (wrong spelling...I think) :wink: of studies that have been done within the black community which would support my argument...such as...The Doll Study, which was performed on black children between the ages of 4 and 6...these doctors bascially sat a few black children in a room, with 2 sets of dolls...all of the little black girls, choose the white doll, over the black doll, because it "was prettier", than the black doll...with the wide nose and kinky hair...this form of early self-hatered...is sometimes linked to who we choose as lifelong partners...it took me a long time to learn that I (being an African woman) am okay...not perfect...just okay.....

If I offend you, I apologize...my argument is that, how would we know, for members of the black community, anyway...what is attractive, if we have be forced to only believe, that white women, and anything other than black women are beautiful???

Sometimes I think it is impossible for white lesbian women to understand fully what racism linked with sexism feels like...and by no means am I asking you to understand...I could care less...this post was just to further understand..the complete issues that black lesbian womyn go through..once again...I mean no harm....

For all of those members on this website who insist that "the blacks" are constantley "crying about racism in amerika", and just "need to get over 400 years of oppression and police brutality", or better yet "leave my country if you hate it so", Please save the annoying racist comments for another thread...I am simply posting this thread, so that I can learn from other women of color and how they deal with different area's of discrimination.....thanks...no harm done.

Hi there, ZimbaBwe, we do appreciate your recent contributions. Please don't let what we're about to say diminish your feeling of our appreciation for you or your contributions, but we did feel the need to say a couple of things in response to your post. First of all, let us say that we almost exclusively steer clear of engaging in debates with subscribers to the board, and we're not trying to debate here. We've decided to steer clear because we don't want to "Big Brother" (traditional Orwellian reference) or "Big Sister" (our adaptation) anyone into anything by acting like an authority figure, just because we run this particular place. We run it, but we want it to be an open lesbo space, not just something about what we think or censored to be like what we think. So, we usually don't censor/debate/question. (And as yet another paranthetical statement, we don't mean to imply that anyone at all WOULD be Big Anyone'd into anything just 'cause we said it, but just in case, we don't want to exert that influence.) But we were a little concerned about this particular comment, perhaps or even probably because we don't understand your meaning.

"For all those members on this website who insist that 'the blacks' are constantly . . . " and "Please save the annoying racist comments for another thread . . . " it wasn't particularly clear if you meant this as a preemptive strike on POTENTIAL would-be-racists or if you felt there were ALREADY members on the website who had insisted anything at all about "the blacks." (Not our words) We're really hoping the former, but if you did mean the latter, that's not apparent to us from what we've read. From you or from other posts from other members. Again, while we haven't noticed anything that we thought was racist on the board, if you feel there have been posts that would qualify, please let us know, because that would definitely be one of the few things we would "Big Sister" out of the place (i.e., not at all condone). We're human, we miss things, and while our standards are quite flexible, they do exist. Again, while we don't want to debate with subscribers ourselves . . . racism wouldn't fly. No. Not even.

And as far as "saving the racist comments for another thread" . . . not cool. We'd rather they not exist at ALL here, on this or any other thread.

...my inital argument rests on the images that are specifically given to the black community, and to all women of color around the word...gay and str8, who are so bombarded with a certain image of beauty...that they only choose to date members of that arena...

Hey ZimbaBwe and Carrie

[note]

No, I actually don't think we can say that desire is "natural" or biological, for many of the reasons ZimbaBwe has pointed out. The impact that social conditioning has on us is huge, and I don't even know if we would be able to detach it from our likes and dislikes and find out if there is any biological 'truth'. In that way desire is most definitely socially constructed - and it hinges on those social relations as I mentioned - race, class, gender, gender identity, ability, age....And I fear when we try to naturalize desire without thinking through this it becomes dangerous.

But how do we deal? And how can we heal? I mean, loving in queer communities often warns us about the patriarchy but not about the white supremacy...People become 'fetishes' and that is really scary. We don't evaluate the historical triggers that stuff like SM and Master/Slave play have on women of colour, specifically black women.

So of course I'm not saying that every person of colour who dates a white person specifically is self-hating. I don't doubt that some folks are. I currently am in love with a white woman, but as I said to ZimbaBwe in a PM, that doesn't mean I'm delusional about her being a racist. That we have shit to deal with and have to spend a lot of time going through messy shit. She grew up with privilege (many of them, as did I) and we want to make sure we don't hurt each other with our fucked up learned behaviours. I don't think it is an epidemic - I don't think it means the world is coming to an end - but I do think it needs to be discussed.

"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

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:roll: What a tangle web...I have weaved....I am aware of racism...on this site, because I have read it with my own eyes....does it matter?...not at all...racism flies everywhere...and I am shocked that I am recieving a "small talking to", (with the content of this thread)..not at all...with every thread I have posted...I have insisted that NO harm was to be done on my part...I have always said that if I have indeed, made anyone feel uncomfortable....I sincerly apologize...I was just trying to save this thread from any of the OFF THE WALL shit, that I have read on other threads, on this website...in regards to "the black" issue....before joining this forum...I have read all that I can about what lesbian women were going through and their views on the race issue in their country...this is the only reason why...I wrote my feelings on what MIGHT be said....that is the end of that....once again...no harm done...

Zami....I agree with you that....just because two people are of the same race...that dosen't mean that they will automatically get along....I know that like I know my name....I was just wondering about attraction...and what brings people...to choose their mates....I never looked at SM in that way before...I guess because I never got involved in it...I agree with you that this is a topic that needs to be futher discussed.....drop a line