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The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

This is more to settle an argument between some me and a mutual friend, who for some reason doesn't understand that this would be a complete blowout. Admittedly, he's a huge Halo fanboy, and I doubt he's delved even a little into the Warhammer material I've provided him, but seeing as I'm almost an equally huge WH40k fan (I have played all the Halo games, including the RTS), I want to make sure I'm not being totally unreasonable here.

Do the Covenant, the alien menace of the Halo Franchise, even stand a chance against the arrayed forces of the God Emperor of Mankind?

I think it's at least an interesting question given how many parallels can be drawn between Halo and WH40k (I think you can even make an argument that the Adeptus Astartes more or less inspired the Spartans, as much as any other games space marines). I maintain however that in any armed conflicts, the filthy xenos worshiping their alien gods do not stand a chance against the Imperium's finest.

Why?

Sheer overwhelming logistical strength on the part of the humans. It's true that the ungainly Imperium stretches thousands of worlds and faces so many threats that it's combined might cannot ever be brought to bear against a single foe, but assuming the Covenant ever launched a major campaign against an Imperial sector, they'd be facing down forces in a scale we've never seen in the Halo universe (even the books).

Again though, I want some opinions from the Halo supporters our there in the Playground. What are the largest feats of military might we've ever seen the Covenant launch (Reach is the greatest battle I can think of) and can they even hold a candle to the deeds of a single Space Marine Chapter?

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

The Imperium has over 10,000 years of experience in fighting every known alien threat....yeah. They're good at it. I mean, we can look at their most basic weapons. The Lasgun. It is a laser rifle that, with a single shot, can punch through armor, decimate modern armors, leave head-sized holes in concrete, and leave targets a particularly bloody and cauterized mess, all in one shot. Doing about the equivalent of a modern-day .50 cal rifle with almost no recoil, and as a medium-long range semi-automatic assault rifle.

And that's among the Imperium's weakest weapons, hell, the weakest gun in the setting, arguably, having earned the moniker "flashlight."

So what do the Covenant have? Essentially extremely scaled-down versions of Laspistols, with the only troops able to do anything of importance against a squad of Guardsmen being deployed as special forces or squad leaders. Effectively, we have 10 grunts, 1 elite, and maybe 2 or 3 jackals against a squad of Imperial Guardsmen armed with the equivalent of rapid-fire UNSC Sniper Rifles. Now whether or not Flak Armor is any better than UNSC Trooper armor is open to argument.

Now consider the fact that Guardsmen are considered expendable, and it is the tactic of Guard commanders to drown their opponents in bodies. Also consider the fact that the Guard has access to the best tanks in the setting.
Essentially, what the Covenant are up against are a rampaging tidal-wave of humans who are, individually, actually more potent than their opponents, and ABSOLUTELY HATE THE COVENANT'S GUTS backed up by vehicles and tanks the Covenant has no defense against. Bolters, AKA Automatic Rocket Launchers, are standard-issue mountings for the Omnissiah's vehicles. And that's only a secondary/sponson mounting.

Now this is for the ground war only, but I seriously doubt it'd be at all different in space, with ships that can fire shells that 40k novels have literally described as "apartment-building-sized."

TL;DR, yeah. TOTAL blowout. Honestly I think all the Imperium needs to wipe out the Covvies are a Battlefleet and a few Guard regiments. If the Astartes get involved, let's just say Khorne will be pleased.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Emperor Ing

Now consider the fact that Guardsmen are considered expendable, and it is the tactic of Guard commanders to drown their opponents in bodies. Also consider the fact that the Guard has access to the best tanks in the setting.

I think that's a point worth considering right there.

Everyone here has played Halo right? Remember how you are pretty much invincible every time you hop in a Scorpion? That's why the levels with them are so few and far between, because as long as you're in the tank, the only thing that's even remotely a threat to you is a Scarab.

Now consider that the Scorpion looks like the equivalent of those early WWI rolling canons compared to the Leman Russ, whole fleets of which can be deployed by even modest Imperial Guard Legions.

So, if Master Chief in a Scorpion can plow through entire Covenant battalions, I think it's pretty safe to say that a lone Baneblade could wade through a Covenant army like so much shallow water.

Originally Posted by Emperor Ing

TL;DR, yeah. TOTAL blowout. Honestly I think all the Imperium needs to wipe out the Covvies are a Battlefleet and a few Guard regiments. If the Astartes get involved, let's just say Khorne will be pleased.

If I'm crunching the numbers right, a couple of Imperial Guard regiments should work out to at least a 100,000 soldiers, and upwards of half a million if the planetary governors and sector commanders deem such numbers necessary. Complimented by a Battlefleet of between 50 and 75 capital and support ships . . . You know, I could be convinced that the Covenant could maybe take an Imperial Sector if they caught them unprepared or under-strength.

But as you said, it is at that point that the Adeptus Astartes will almost certainly be called in, and with them comes death on swift wings.

Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-12 at 02:50 PM.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Covenant has Shields. And I mean all there troops have shields (as in Force Shields surrounding body), remember, Legendary is the true setting.

40K has armor, but not shields, so I think Covenant stands a chance.

Those shields can be blown through or worn down by modern-equivalent weapons (slug-throwers and automatics) and are essentially wholly ignored by armor-piercing rounds (Sniper Rifles). The Imperium of Man doesn't use modern slugs. They use high-concentration lasers and bolters (miniature, fully automatic rocket launchers). Those aren't shields as far as the IoM is concerned. They're fashion statements.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Covenant has Shields. And I mean all there troops have shields (as in Force Shields surrounding body), remember, Legendary is the true setting.

40K has armor, but not shields, so I think Covenant stands a chance.

Ummm, only the Brutes and the Elites are equipped with shield generators, and even those are clearly vulnerable to standard solid slug munitions. The standard weapons of the Imperium are energy weapons (which are more effective against shields, as per the Halo universe), and miniature, full-auto, rocket propelled grenades. If a standard Halo caliber machine pistol or battle rifle can take down shields in a matter of seconds, I'm pretty sure the 40k weaponry should be able to do the same, if not better.

That's not counting the special or heavy weapons that Space Marines and Imperial Guard units have access too. The Halo Plasma rifle is the equivalent of an energy based uzi. The 40k Plasma rifle can melt through tank armor and vaporize individual soldiers.

Also, 40k Imperial troops do have access to shield technology. It's not generally considered battlefield portable, and is generally only used on ships, but Terminator armor has a built in void shield generator, and IG commanders have access to personal shield generators as well.

Edit:
I was wondering why we don't really seem to see shield generators mounted on vehicles in either Halo or 40k but then I realized that 40k at least does have ground based vehicles equipped with void shields: Titans.

The smallest Imperial Titans are the size of Scarabs, and while they're not generally found amongst IG Regiments or Astartes Chapters, you can bet any Imperial Sector worth its salt will have a few Titan Legions to throw at any xenos threat sufficient to warrant their intervention.

So you figure the Imperium should be able to throw together maybe a few dozen Titan class walkers at the Covenant. Warhound Titans are comparable to Scarab's in size, but they're considered the scout class of Titan, the standard troops of a Titan Legion being the Reaver and Warlord class Titans, which have no equal in size or scale or potential for destruction within the Halo Universe.

Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-12 at 04:06 PM.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

. . . You know, I could be convinced that the Covenant could maybe take an Imperial Sector if they caught them unprepared or under-strength.

I really think that might be a stretch, unless they bring their entire force into it, this means High Charity and all their various armadas, and the stars must align in their favor. That means the Planetary Defense Force for all those worlds are totally useless (as they usually are,) Guard regiments are either off-system or underpowered, and there are no Spess Mahreen homeworlds in that sector. At best they MIGHT be able to take a subsector, but it wouldn't be long before, say, the Mordians or Catachans come in to curb-stomp some Elites.

Really the only vehicle of note that the Covenant have is the Scarab, but let's face it. It's only got one serious weapon, and against a moving target it's not that effective. Compare that to our favorite mac-mansion sized tank and it's 11 barrels of hell. Using a Warhound Titan against a scarab would be serious overkill, i'd say a Leman Russ or possibly even a Sentinel with a Lascannon and a bit of patience is all that's necessary to take those things down.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Emperor Ing

I really think that might be a stretch, unless they bring their entire force into it, this means High Charity and all their various armadas, and the stars must align in their favor. That means the Planetary Defense Force for all those worlds are totally useless (as they usually are,) Guard regiments are either off-system or underpowered, and there are no Spess Mahreen homeworlds in that sector. At best they MIGHT be able to take a subsector, but it wouldn't be long before, say, the Mordians or Catachans come in to curb-stomp some Elites.

For the sake of argument, let's assume we're dealing with two comparable forces at their best possible strength. So, that would be the entire Covenant Fleet assembled around High Charity invading an Imperial Sector with a dozen or so full strength IG Regiments, a few Battlefleets who have been tasked with the repulsion of the Xenos threat, and at least one Space Marine chapter with the majority of it's companies assembled. Oh, and of course an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos witih his retinue.

Really the only vehicle of note that the Covenant have is the Scarab, but let's face it. It's only got one serious weapon, and against a moving target it's not that effective. Compare that to our favorite mac-mansion sized tank and it's 11 barrels of hell. Using a Warhound Titan against a scarab would be serious overkill, i'd say a Leman Russ or possibly even a Sentinel with a Lascannon and a bit of patience is all that's necessary to take those things down.

I'm willing to cut the Covenant a little slack where Scarab's are concerned. I played the Halo RTS and let me tell you a Scarab Walkers tear their way through UNSC vehicles like tissue paper. Considering that 40k is basically the Dark Ages with Super Science technology, I'm willing to say the Scarab could pose a serious threat even to most of standard Imperial vehicles.

Problem is, it's the only serious threat I can think of, and Scarabs are pretty rare. Focus fire from a trio of Leman Russ Battle Tanks would be more than enough to take it down I'm sure (that much faster if they've got Basilisk support, which they will). It's maybe a match for a lone Warhound Titan, but seeing as how they're employed in scouting pairs and supported by the larger titans . . . it doesn't look good.

The Covenant Ghosts and Banshees might do a lot to harass an IG regiment's flanks, but seeing as how they can be gunned down with concentrated small arms fire . . . Well, they're basically open topped vehicles with an armor value of 7 or 8 (lower than even the lightest vehicles in 40k).

Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-12 at 04:33 PM.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

I'm willing to cut the Covenant a little slack where Scarab's are concerned. I played the Halo RTS and let me tell you a Scarab Walkers tear their way through UNSC vehicles like tissue paper. Considering that 40k is basically the Dark Ages with Super Science technology, I'm willing to say the Scarab could pose a serious threat even to most of standard Imperial vehicles.

Problem is, it's the only serious threat I can think of, and Scarabs are pretty rare. Focus fire from a trio of Leman Russ Battle Tanks would be more than enough to take it down I'm sure (that much faster if they've got Basilisk support, which they will). It's maybe a match for a lone Warhound Titan, but seeing as how they're employed in scouting pairs and supported by the larger titans . . . it doesn't look good.

The Covenant Ghosts and Banshees might do a lot to harass an IG regiment's flanks, but seeing as how they can be gunned down with concentrated small arms fire . . . Well, they're basically open topped vehicles with an armor value of 7 or 8 (lower than even the lightest vehicles in 40k).

Concentrated Slug fire in Halo can kill a Banshee. A few shots from the Sniper Rifle, say...3, can outright destroy a banshee. I seriously don't think they'll be able to do much other than make extremely quick hit-and-run tactics. All the Guard would need to do is get a few solid Lasgun hits and BOOM! Instant dead banshees. The same can be said for ghosts, though they're in an even worse situation since they aren't airborne. I have far more confidence in Phantoms and Spirits being able to harass guard lines, of course this is assuming that there aren't any tanks, Heavy Weapons Teams, Sanctioned Psykers, or someone with a Bolter immediately available.

As for Scarabs, I can see its main gun being able to destroy a Leman Russ, but let's be honest: The projectile is slow-moving and easy to avoid, with a dissapointing lack of AOE to compensate. Guard and Tank commanders will eventually catch on to this, and learn to fire their tanks on the move. A Warhound Titan is redundant, all that's needed is concentrated Battle Cannon fire, Demolisher Cannon fire from a Baneblade, or a Basilisk/Manticore bombardment.

And I think you're forgetting the sheer over-the-top-edness of 40k. The Imperial Guard is NOT the UNSC forces. Each Guardsman is zealously devoted to the omnicide of all non-human sentient races, and equipped with weapons that put half of the UNSC arsenal to shame...and that's just standard issue. I have no doubt a single guardsmen could gun down an Elite without much difficulty (though the energy uzi might do some hurtin' too)

You are right in the OP when you said it's a blowout, but i'm not sure you truly appreciate how massive a blowout it would truly be. With the scenario provided, it's pretty easy how the battle goes. The IG holds the planet without much difficulty, the Marines send a single company, possibly a Terminator Boarding Squad in to destroy High Charity from within, and they succeed with the Covenant being powerless to stop them, and their fleet is decimated by a huge Imperial armada of ships that are built to deal with threats of far greater magnitude than the Covenant could ever hope to bring.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Emperor Ing

You are right in the OP when you said it's a blowout, but i'm not sure you truly appreciate how massive a blowout it would truly be. With the scenario provided, it's pretty easy how the battle goes. The IG holds the planet without much difficulty, the Marines send a single company, possibly a Terminator Boarding Squad in to destroy High Charity from within, and they succeed with the Covenant being powerless to stop them, and their fleet is decimated by a huge Imperial armada of ships that are built to deal with threats of far greater magnitude than the Covenant could ever hope to bring.

Yeah, I thought I'd play xeno's advocate here for a while and take up the conservative view, but at this point it's hard to argue the Covenant could take on a single planet, let alone face down the combined might of a single sub-sector brought to bare.

I don't give much for the odds of IG surviving, but they're so numerous and their weapons vastly outstrip those of even the Covenant themselves, it's difficult to think of the Covenant having much luck with an offensive. If Spartan IIs and IIIs are any indicator of how effective Space Marines would be, I think you're right. A single Chapter's Terminantor Company could more or less obliterate anything the Covenant threw at them, and seize or destroy any ship or craft they happened to teleport inside of an hour.

Factor in the the Covenant likely have no way to defend against the attacks of Sanctioned Psykers and Space Marine Librarians and they're really just completely outmatched in every category.

As a final testament to the sheer scale by which WH40k overwhelms the covenant, and to settle the matter of ship superiority once and for all, I post this comparison. A Covenant capital class ship is about the size of a small city and crewed by a few thousand Covenant. That's about the size of a small frigate or system defense ship in 40k terms. Imperial Capital Ships have crews upwards of half a million and are the size of small states. Any sector's battlefleet is comprised of at least a dozen or so of such craft, and their support ships.

Victor:

Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-12 at 05:55 PM.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Those shields can be blown through or worn down by modern-equivalent weapons (slug-throwers and automatics) and are essentially wholly ignored by armor-piercing rounds (Sniper Rifles). The Imperium of Man doesn't use modern slugs. They use high-concentration lasers and bolters (miniature, fully automatic rocket launchers). Those aren't shields as far as the IoM is concerned. They're fashion statements.

I've never played Halo, so forgive me if this stupid question. The shields seem pretty useless again slug throwers, but how do they hold up to energy weapon? Just as bad, better?

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

What about the space battle

Goes to the Imperium. Their ships are built to fend off or destroy threats of far greater magnitude than the Covenant. If you want something more concrete, consider that orbital bombardments have been described as ships dropping warheads the size of apartment buildings.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.

Well, that depends on how you really want to factor it. Compared to its contemporaries, the IoM does indeed somewhat lack in the space combat department, though this is only really if you compare them to the nimbleness of the Eldar or the unstoppable horror of the Necron tomb-ships. Compared to the Covenant's stated engagement ranges, though, they've got a massive and overwhelming advantage in terms of range and firing power, with maneuverability and FTL travel being roughly equal.

Originally Posted by Chilingsworth

Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.

Their space side is as absurdly over-the-top as their infantry forces. Sure, some of their ships load their cannons by chain-gang labor, but as mentioned above, the shells they're firing are the size of small apartment buildings. The mainstay Imperial Navy ship, the Lunar Cruiser, is 5 kilometers long, and their battleships are 8km. If Halo Nation is correct, the Covenant Assault Carrier, the second-largest ship in their fleet, is 5.3km long, only the 28km supercarriers are bigger.

Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-12 at 09:41 PM.

Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech

The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.

Spoiler

Show

Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus

Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Their space side is as absurdly over-the-top as their infantry forces. Sure, some of their ships load their cannons by chain-gang labor, but as mentioned above, the shells they're firing are the size of small apartment buildings. The mainstay Imperial Navy ship, the Lunar Cruiser, is 5 kilometers long, and their battleships are 8km. If Halo Nation is correct, the Covenant Assault Carrier, the second-largest ship in their fleet, is 5.3km long, only the 28km supercarriers are bigger.

Always nice to see modposts even in an unofficial capacity

And yeah, I mentioned it a little earlier, but where it comes to space combat, the Imperium has the Covenant beat in all categories but one: weight of numbers.

From what I've read, standard Covenant Naval groups consist of several dozen ships (capital, cruisers, and frigates), whereas the Battlefleet for any given Imperial subsector is generally going to number no more than a score of capital ships, cruisers and frigates. The Covenant fleet that took the Battle of Reach was 300+ ships, and while that was a substantial engagement, it's only reasonable to assume that this would be a conflict on a similar scale. That means even supplemented by non-ftl support and system defense craft, the Imperials are likely to be outnumbered 10 to 1.

All that said, Glyphstone's point still stands and then some. An Imperial Retribution class Battlecruiser is almost twice the size of the largest covenant ships, and moreover it boasts over 5 times the raw tonnage, and practically 10 times the firepower.

It's like comparing a P-51 Mustang to an A-10 Thunderbolt. The A-10 is only about twice as big, but it's in a completely different scale (and era) in terms of firepower and durability.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Lexicanum says a battlefleet is usually between 50 and 75 ships, up or down depending on the relative threat level. So it's only, at worst, a 6-1 margin without local support ships. Though I understand the Battle of Reach did have at least one Supercarrier there, so the largest Covenant ship in play will outclass the largest Imperial ship in play if they each get a full fleet to play with. The average Imperial ship size is far larger than the average Covenant ship size, though, even with a supercarrier dragging the median up - the Lunar cruiser's apparent opposite number is the 1.7km CCS Battlecruiser, and the smallest ship the Imperial Navy deploys are escort-class destroyers at 1.5km.

Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-09-12 at 10:09 PM.

Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech

The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.

Spoiler

Show

Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus

Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

What about the space battle? 40k infantry have bigger guns and more men, but their space side, if I remember right, is not great.

Really, the problem in Space is that the Covenant Ships are shown to be hurt by UNSC MAC Cannons. A Imperial Frigate will mount whole broadsides of cannons larger in size, if not quite the same projectile velocity, with armour-ignoring Lance** projectors prow mounted. And while they only have somewhat more than the 10-30 meters of armour plating that the UNSC ships mount, they also have at least a kilometer of hull to anything vital. And Void Shields, which autoblock nearly everything if they come in one shot (per one Void Shield projector) at a time. Cruisers, are bigger, more heavily armoured and be-weaponed. And Cruisers are the IoM's Ship-of-the-Line.

While the Covenant may manuever faster due to the Slipspace-short-jump capabilities, with it's obvious drawbacks ignored for a moment, it doesn't help them too much, as the Imperium outranges them by... Well, Imperial Standard Armament (Macrocannons, Laser Batteries, etc) Extreme Range is in the 70,000 - 100,000 km, with 30-60,000 km being optimal range. ...The Covenant engage, at most, around 10,000 km, with a few rare exceptions like the Sniper Flagship/Battlecruiser that shows up in The Fall of Reach that has a range of (approximated) 100,000 km. (1 in the 314 ship strong invasion force that they pointed at Reach, the assumed Human Homeworld. They have another 2000-3000 ships with High Charity, so they could have (going by that ratio) a whole... 10? More, if you assume they keep the better ships at home.)

Covenant Fighters might be superior to Imperial, but it's difficult to tell, as all they ever fight is Longswords, and go about even against them.

And all the Reclaimers help them if there's an "outdated*" Nova Cannon on a cruiser. Fires rounds at >.75C, that implode hard enough to hurt Imperium-sized/armoured ships when they miss by a few hundred kilometers. There are a variety of Nova Cannons in fluff, as usual for 40K, some hilariously weaker than this, some hilariously stronger.

*Technically, it's still a marvel of engineering for the Imperium, they just consider it outdated in the Military Tactic sense, having moved Prow-Shooting > Horde of Fighters > Broadsides > ???, depending on Sector.

** Lances, while blocked by Imperium Void Shields, have the descriptor Ignores Armour. These buggers can lance straight through ships if they don't have Void Shields up.

Last edited by Kinslayer; 2012-09-12 at 10:15 PM.

Rowe's Rule: the odds are five to six that the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Lexicanum says a battlefleet is usually between 50 and 75 ships, up or down depending on the relative threat level. So it's only, at worst, a 6-1 margin without local support ships. Though I understand the Battle of Reach did have at least one Supercarrier there, so the largest Covenant ship in play will outclass the largest Imperial ship in play if they each get a full fleet to play with. The average Imperial ship size is far larger than the average Covenant ship size, though, even with a supercarrier dragging the median up - the Lunar cruiser's apparent opposite number is the 1.7km CCS Battlecruiser, and the smallest ship the Imperial Navy deploys are escort-class destroyers at 1.5km.

Thought for sure I had read a Battlefleet consisted of only a dozen ships or so. Maybe that was for individual systems, not subsectors.

Kinslayer brings up some good points too, and I think it'd be worth probing the issue of fighter craft a little more, or rather more pertinently, boarding craft.

As mentioned, the optimum Covenant engagement range is less than a quarter of that of IoM cruisers and capital ships, which means that any covenant craft which actually make it into firing range, are also well within the range of any smaller Imperial Craft to board either by teleportation or the various range of assault craft the Imperium has access to.

Once you've got Imperial boarding parties on Covenant craft (whether that's Cadian Shock Troopers or Space Marine Terminators) they are sure to carve a bloody swathe through the Covenant crew, as we've previously established that standard Covenant forces (grunts and jackals) just aren't going to be a match for battle hardened IG assault troops, let along the Emperor's chosen harbingers of destruction.

Last edited by ChaosLord29; 2012-09-12 at 10:32 PM.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Another question to note: From what point in the timeline are we yoinking the covenant? In my personal opinion, we should probably go from early Halo 2, before Regret got sacked. It'd be the latest period during which they where a cohesive whole and had both Elites and Brutes in command positions.

^~Cody T.~^

"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Chess435

Another question to note: From what point in the timeline are we yoinking the covenant? In my personal opinion, we should probably go from early Halo 2, before Regret got sacked. It'd be the latest period during which they where a cohesive whole and had both Elites and Brutes in command positions.

I like to assume for debate purposes we're dealing with the Covenant at the height of their power, which I should think would be prior to the Fall of Reach. Also we're assuming the full strength of Covenant forces not just the expeditionary force which was primarily composed of Sangheii. So that's the combined might of the Covenant Empire, Brutes and Elites as they were never assembled during the Halo series.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Kinslayer brings up some good points too, and I think it'd be worth probing the issue of fighter craft a little more, or rather more pertinently, boarding craft.

Well, the Covenant do have an advantage over almost every 40K faction against Boarding Pods, that being thier highly accurate Pulse Lasers that can pick off swathes of UNSC missles. On the other hand, no defence against the ill-loved Teleportarium. The only issue will be finding anyone willing to use it that doesn't begin and end with Adeptus Astartes. (And Inquisitors.)

Rowe's Rule: the odds are five to six that the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Well, the Covenant do have an advantage over almost every 40K faction against Boarding Pods, that being thier highly accurate Pulse Lasers that can pick off swathes of UNSC missles. On the other hand, no defence against the ill-loved Teleportarium. The only issue will be finding anyone willing to use it that doesn't begin and end with Adeptus Astartes. (And Inquisitors.)

Is that an issue? I mean, we're sure to see at least some provisional Space Marines thrown at this thing, if not a Chapter's core companies. Master Chief and a contingent of marines all but walk onto a Covenant cruiser and proceeds to wade through the crew and security forces to rescue Cpt. Keyes in Halo I.

Granted, we're talking about the greatest hero of the war, but every Adeptus Astartes company commander is a veteran of hundreds of years of war and dozens of campaigns, having proved their worth and mettle a thousand times over. I don't know if it's much of stretch to say a Terminator Commander and his retinue could teleport onto High Charity itself and personally slay every last Covenant on board.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Is that an issue? I mean, we're sure to see at least some provisional Space Marines thrown at this thing, if not a Chapter's core companies. Master Chief and a contingent of marines all but walk onto a Covenant cruiser and proceeds to wade through the crew and security forces to rescue Cpt. Keyes in Halo I.

Granted, we're talking about the greatest hero of the war, but every Adeptus Astartes company commander is a veteran of hundreds of years of war and dozens of campaigns, having proved their worth and mettle a thousand times over. I don't know if it's much of stretch to say a Terminator Commander and his retinue could teleport onto High Charity itself and personally slay every last Covenant on board.

I'd give anything up to and possibly including a super-carrier to a a well-prepared Terminator squad, but High Charity itself is stretching things a bit. Mostly because the thousands of Ship Masters, Fleet Masters, Honor Guards, and even the High Council itself in a species where military rankings are based on combat prowess. Although I would like to see the chaos unfold if they popped right into a High Council meeting. Obviously, the solution is to teleport in more than one squad.

^~Cody T.~^

"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

Re: The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

Originally Posted by Chess435

I'd give anything up to and possibly including a super-carrier to a a well-prepared Terminator squad, but High Charity itself is stretching things a bit. Mostly because the thousands of Ship Masters, Fleet Masters, Honor Guards, and even the High Council itself in a species where military rankings are based on combat prowess. Although I would like to see the chaos unfold if they popped right into a High Council meeting. Obviously, the solution is to teleport in more than one squad.

Ah, yeah I see where you got confused. I used retinue not in the 'Commander + Squad' sense, but rather the Terminator Commander of the Chapter, and the assembled might of it's 2nd Company.

So that'd be, what? The Commander, a dozen or so terminator veterans, plus a few more squads of 'run-of-the-mill' nigh invulnerable, champions of raw zealous fury and hatred for all things alien, armed with tank crushing gauntlets, twin-linked auto-fire rpgs, plus an assortment of heavy weapons.

Favorite Things Mr. Welch can't do during an RPG:

My monk's lips must be in sync.

Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate concept for a super hero.

No longer allowed to recreate the Death Star Trench Run out of genre.

When accepting a challenge for a duel, I must allow the other guy time to find a pistol.

Check the door means to listen at it, not put several rounds through it.

We will not implement any plan that includes the words "And hope they miss a lot"