After all, if what you're saying about blacks is true, then when Reverend Jeremiah Wright said "God damn America," then mobs of blacks would have rushed him and beat the crap out of him for "hatred." That's what Whites who oppose their own race do, so if blacks don't do the same thing, then your statement is invalid.

When I see thousands of blacks violently attacking a few lone Black Nationalists (or gang-bangers, for that matter) on the streets, then you might have a point.

Until then, you're just blowing hot air.

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I don't think they "hate their race", probably by your definition. I just don't think Black and White liberals consciously think about it at all.

I can assure you that White liberals do think about it consciously. They've been trained and conditioned to do so all their lives. Blacks don't have to worry about Political Correctness. They can say whatever they want about White people or America and get away with it. White people won't protest when blacks say Politically Incorrect things, and more importantly, non-whites don't complain about it either.

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Hey man, it ain't about me. Its just obvious that the word is rude.

Obvious to you.

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Don't call people things you know you wouldn't say to their face.

I wouldn't do that anyway. But that's beside the point.

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I know alot of White people who do that. Smile and grin at you then when our back is turned snicker to their friends all the slurs they weren't bold enough to say while I was standing right in front of em.

Do you actually witness this? Or are you just assuming?

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I'm sure you have White friends who put on that front as well.

Yes, but among Whites, it's far more complicated than that. True, there are definitely Whites who put on a false front and pretend to be "non-racist" when they're not. But Whites who are actually conscious of this are not that common. More often than not, it's Whites who are sincerely trying to conform to the dictates of Political Correctness and anti-racism, but inside of them, it forms a mental block that they're unable to reconcile. The reason for this has to do with the mixed messages I mentioned earlier. Anti-racism is a rather convoluted and often contradictory ideology, so for the average White person, it can be exceedingly confusing.

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What do you think "Nigga" is? It is a softening of the word. The word was around for so long,that Blacks simply flipped the meaning and used at as a term of endearment for "homeboy" or "friend". Yet some Whites and Blacks still don't agree with that either. Blacks complain "why you all call each other that negative name" and Whites complain "Why can they use it and we can't? How come they say negative things and we get called a racist if we do?" If black people have co-opted it as a means of reducing its sting, then they have every right to use it as they see fit. This doesn't mean Whites have the right to use it as we do, or to condemn Blacks for doing so. It's none of your business, as far as I'm concerned. Let us decide amongst themselves whether it's appropriate or not.

If it's none of our business, then I could just as easily turn that around and say that you have no business criticizing or complaining when Whites use the word. As long as you're trying to dictate to White people which words they can or can not use, then it most definitely becomes our business.

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Oh no! I've got view points from some of my White family members as well. Its like this, like so many Black Americans, I carry in me the blood of Slaves and Slave owners. To almost every American whose family has been here for generations, they have another family history most likely,A Black side and a White, one in which they probably don't know. I've traced those roots and have had plenty of White people slam the door in my face. But fortunately, some who actually listened and told me the stories of their grandparents as well.

So, you just go up to a stranger's house and claim to be a long lost relative? That would probably raise someone's suspicions.

But weren't you raised by the Black side of your family? When they're with you every day, they would obviously have more influence over your perspective than someone you might have talked to for an hour or two (if that).

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It really doesn't matter. I've heard the same stories. Perhaps they don't wanna talk about it. Perhaps they don't know. And perhaps their families never owned slaves.

Why doesn't it matter? It certainly matters to me, just as your family history matters to you.

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The difference in that is no one is holding a whip to Illegals back making them be here.

That's not necessarily true. Maybe they don't use whips, but they still have their methods of controlling these people. In most cases, however, it's not Whites doing it, but members of their own race. It's common practice for Mexican "coyotes" to hold family members hostage until someone can pay their fee for taking them over the border. The "coyotes" are involved with the Mexican drug cartels, and they are very powerful.

They've also found Asians working in illegal sweatshops and in brothels, and again, the perpetrators are their own people.

Maybe you don't care about that because the perpetrators aren't White, and if you can't tar the White race with something negative, you'll ignore it.

But these practices still go on, all with the full approval of the anti-racist ideologues.

In other words, you've lost the right to complain about slavery as a racial issue. If you truly cared about the mistreatment of human beings, you would address these things, but by demonstrating that you DON'T care about these people, you're revealing a different agenda. The agenda is an anti-White agenda, not "anti-racist" and definitely not "anti-slavery." You just use slavery as a pretext to justify your anti-White agenda, but you obviously don't care if other people are exploited or mistreated.

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They choose to do that on their own. They are not legal and no one forced them across the border.They walked. They shouldn't be here in the first place and they can always leave whenever they wish.

But they're not leaving on their own, so they'll have to be arrested and deported. Those who shelter and employ them should also be arrested and put on trial for treason.

But you, as an anti-racist, are contradicting your own ideology. Aren't anti-racists supposed to love ALL people regardless of their race, color, or national origin? Or do antis only say that stuff just because it sounds good? Do they really mean it? Obviously not.

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Your statement was a general assumption that Blacks hate Whites today because of Slavery, or so it seemed.

Well, that's what blacks complain about quite often. If that's not the true basis of their complaint, then they shouldn't bring it up at all. But since many, many, many, many, many blacks have continually brought up the issue of slavery at the hands of their White "masters," I feel that it's safe to conclude that blacks still have lingering resentments against Whites because of this.

I'm just going by what blacks have said many, many times. Are you saying that I should just disregard what black people say from here on out?

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We know that some Whites back then gave harsh treatment indeed, however to say it is a grudge by most Blacks today is far off, unless you talk to some Afrocentrists and Black supremacists.

Do Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi Goldberg, Bill Cosby, Condoleeza Rice count? These are just a few names off the top of my head of blacks who have complained about slavery and "racism." (I could probably find many, many more if I did a search.) Do these people qualify as "Afrocentrists"? If so, then there may be a lot more of them about then you're suggesting.

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But a funny thing that happens when Blacks bring up slavery in front of some whites is that White people immediately become defensive, even when no one was specifically referring to them.

Well, yes, after 30-40 years of having that rhetoric shoved down our throats, you should realize that some Whites are getting tired of hearing it. That's one of the major drawbacks of imposing Political Correctness on people and browbeating them to death with these strident, overused arguments which no longer have any relevance in America today.

Eventually, diminishing returns set in and the ideology becomes fossilized and incomprehensible to the general public. That's what happened in the former Soviet Bloc countries. No matter how much tyranny and oppression those governments imposed on their people, the ideology itself was just so senseless that people just couldn't understand it or relate to it - even though their lives depended conforming to it.

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Just because a Black person brings up slavery or talks about our history doesn't mean its complaining.

True, it depends on the context of the discussion, but generally, in discussions like this, it comes across that way.

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Some of you all act as if Blacks are obliged to forget our history and never talk about it.

Because it's not just "your" history. The White race apparently has had a pivotal role in "your" history, and since you mention (and often disparage) the White race in "your" history, then it also becomes "our" history as well.

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Its obvious by that defensive reaction, even by some WNS, that they still have White guilt.

You just don't get it, do you?

The "White Guilt" has been instilled into White people, practically from birth. Just about every White person born since 1950 (earlier in some areas of the country) has had this crap fed to them - in schools, in churches, from TV shows and movies, from the news media, at Boy Scout meetings, at their place of employment. Friends who have served in the military have told me of their "racial education" classes.

This has been going on before you were even born, Quan. This may seem all brand new and exciting for you, but for some of us, it's getting quite old.

So, the defensive reaction is not because Whites have guilt. Why should anyone feel guilty over things they didn't do personally? They get defensive because they're tired of hearing it.

You're familiar with the term "overkill," aren't you? That's where the anti-racists blew it. I firmly believe that anti-racist fanaticism will be their undoing. It was the main weakness of Marxist-Leninists, and it will turn out to be the weakness of Cultural Marxists as well.

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How do you know that they are?

I don't. But the question has to be asked nonetheless.

This is especially true in the context of the fact that most crimes are intraracial, as we have both agreed. Given the fact that most crimes are intraracial, interracial crimes should be given special attention and examined more closely as to motive.

Part of the problem I have with your view that an interracial crime might have no racial motive whatsoever is that it implies some kind of Orwellian thought process, which is something I simply can not accept.

It's as if you're trying to imply that a criminal does not know if his victim is White or Black, or that he's somehow so racially and liberally well-adjusted and enlightened that he just doesn't see race. He judges his victim not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

Let me give you an example of the kind of silliness this line of thinking can lead to. I was once at a conference of mostly White psychologists and social workers (held at the Simon Weizenthal Center, of all places), and the topic was race relations. This was a highly liberal group, mind you, not a bunch of "racists" or White Nationalists. We saw a short film called "The Color of Fear" which then launched into a discussion on how matters of race can be approached by the social services community, particularly in a diverse city like Los Angeles. These were people who sincerely wanted to help others, and many of them would be required to deal with some of the sociopathic elements in the minority community.

A lot of these White professionals who were educated and received advanced degrees in their field were still clearly unsure of themselves and how to deal with a person of color whom they were bound to treat. They were wondering how to approach the issue of race. Should they even mention race at all? It was almost as if there was an unspoken question, "Do these people even know that they're Black?" Nobody actually came out and asked such a stupid question, but a Black woman at the conference got up and answered it anyway: "Yes, we KNOW we are black."

But the point is, Whites were falling all over themselves to try find delicate ways to walk on eggs around the issue.

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Wait a minute, I never told you my grandparents specifically only told me about harsh treatments by Whites. I also told you about abolitionists and other people who were helpful as well. I've heard many stories, Good and bad. However, from a Black persective you get more detailed stories and insight opposed to when you talk to White people about it. They tend to kind of blush and shy away from the negative.

Yes, that's what White people do.

Of course, you have to realize that White people will react that way to you, as a black person. When Whites are among their own family and friends and there are no non-whites within earshot, they're not necessarily so shy or blushing.

My grandparents were born around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, so the perspective they gave me was from long after the Civil War. I do know that I had ancestors who fought in that war; some for the Union, some for the Confederacy. I have relatives scattered all over the country, and I've gotten different perspectives on who did what. A lot of them lived in areas which had practically zero contact with blacks, so obviously, their historical perspective would not say much about blacks.

This was especially true for my dad's side of the family, as they settled and lived in Dutch farming communities in the upper Midwest. They were there for generations before the first blacks started to trickle in from the South. They never saw any blacks prior to that. Shortly after my dad was born, they moved to a village near the city of Chicago. When they moved there, the village was somewhat separate from the metropolitan area, but eventually, the city grew larger and their village turned into a suburban community. In my dad's time, not only races were segregated, but also ethnicities. He grew up in a Dutch community and a Dutch neighborhood.

There were blacks who lived nearby, but the thing was, they didn't view them as "slaves" or "servants" or anything like that. They just wanted to stay away from them. To them, blacks might have been "strange creatures from outer space." They didn't hate them or want to cause them any suffering. All they wanted was to stay away from them.

Unfortunately, time caught up with them, and today, that once-pristine Dutch community is now 95% black. It was once a safe, quiet, lovely community, but now it's all ruined. Little by little, this has been happening all over America.

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You act as if Black people go around thinking about racial things on a daily basis.

Well, if they're saying racial things on a daily basis, then it stands to reason that they're thinking about it too. How can they not? How can anyone just ignore racial matters when it's all around us?

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Not all history told to Blacks are negative,not all stories are negative, and to talk about our history is not a direct target of hatred to White people in general. You only feel targeted because of White guilt.

Oh I see. So, you're saying that I'm just so torn up with guilt? Is that what you think? You're really way off the mark.

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I'm not going to even get into your "gansta" analogy.

Well, someone has been filling their heads with these ideas. Something obviously motivates them to do what they do. Whether you like it or not, they are very much a part of your community and your culture, just as you would say that "racism" is a part of White culture.

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Criminality is not supported in the Black community. How is it supported? or are you talking about the media portrayal? Rap?

Well, when thousands of black people from all over the country pay travel expenses to descend on a town like Jena, Louisiana in defense of black criminality, then it gives me good cause to think that criminality is supported in the black community. Jesse Jackson has made his whole career out of supporting black criminality.

There was a black preacher in Northern California who organized a protest against a White homeowner who shot a black criminal who was attempting a home invasion robbery. No word of criticism for the black criminal, as it was all the White guy's fault. This is quite common; I've seen this quite often over the past few decades. That's what the L.A. riots were all about.

So, don't tell me that criminality is not supported in the black community when it's quite obvious that they do. I'm not saying that *all* blacks support criminality, but the obvious consensus of their community leaders gives clear support for criminal behavior.

If what you say has even a glimmer of truth to it, then there would have been no protests in Jena, Louisiana. There would have been no L.A. riots in 1992. Heck, there wouldn't be so much criminality AT ALL if blacks took a more decisive community stance against crime. They focus far too much on "racial profiling" and what the police do, and not enough on what the criminals do. This makes me think that they're not really honest about wanting to stop crime in their communities.

It seems that they would rather tie the hands of law enforcement so they can commit even more crimes.

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Black people simply wanted to see if a system that has treated Blacks harshly in the past would actually work for a Black man. That doesn't mean they actually supported him or proclaimed his innocence.

But they DID proclaim his innocence.

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Actually If you walk up to a Black person and ask them do you think OJ commited that murder, they wouldn't hesitate to tell you he did it.

And you speak for all blacks, do you? I recently had occasion to glance at the O.J. Simpson message board on the IMDb, and there are still some people out there who think he didn't do it.

But the whole point is that he was a beneficiary of the anti-racist concept known as "jury nullification," in which black jurors are encouraged to find a black defendant not guilty of whatever crime he's accused of, even if they know that he is guilty as sin.

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I think your perception on what is considered to be 'defending" and your generalization of calling Black people "criminals" all the time is your problem.

I've never said that all black people are criminals. I don't even think I've even said that most black people are criminals. I simply accept the crime stats as is, in addition to the numerous anecdotal stories out there of utterly heinous examples of criminality. I've also never said that White people are angels, and I have repeatedly acknowledged that White people commit crimes, too.

But when I see a sizable number of black people becoming overtly active and aggressive against society and against White people, all because they're angry about what happened to a KNOWN BLACK CRIMINAL, then I have good cause to wonder about where their community moral values may lie.

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In a survey taken it showed that most Blacks disagreed with Rev. Wrights words. I certainly do. And one church doesn't speak for us all, nor does one person. And If you're receiving mixed messages, then there in no reason why you should beleive just one. That shows you that not all Black people think alike.

What it shows me is that black people have two faces: The face that they show to each other, and the face they show to Whites. At the time, when Reverend Wright said that, there were cheers emanating from the congregation. And it's not as if this was some bizarre, isolated cult, either. This was a church with thousands of parishioners with a demographic which cut across the entire black community. It included professionals and blue-collar workers in a major urban area.

Now, if everyone booed what he said, then you might have a point.

It was the same when Mayor Nagin of New Orleans was making his "Chocolate City" speech to a black audience. It's only after these remarks are caught on tape and broadcast to White audiences that there's all this equivocation and damage control from blacks trying to explain what they really meant.

It's not that I choose to believe one message over another, but when I get the impression that someone is lying to me or not giving me the straight story, I will likely form a negative opinion of them. If they can't get their stories straight, or their words or ideas conflict with each other, then my first reaction is to not trust them.

That's the bottom line: You don't give us a reason to trust you, and without trust, there's no possible way we can live together in peace. I don't want to have to go around watching my back all my life. I don't want to have to worry about my family and friends being in danger from doing something as simple as going to the grocery store. That's why I favor racial separation, so we don't have to worry about all that stuff.

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Then tell your buddies to stop saying White history had no effect on the economic and social position of Black America today in ways.

I don't know which of my buddies has been saying this, nor am I aware of anyone making this specific claim. On the contrary, most White Nationalists seem to be of the opinion that the status of blacks in America today is far better than it would have been if their ancestors were never brought over in the first place. I think that such a view clearly acknowledges the effect White history has had on the position of Black America today, but if there are White Nationalists with a contrary view, then that would be worth exploring, too.

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That was way before I was insighted. What. You think Ganstas on the street pop in a Malcolm X tape before they go rob somebody White?

No, but someone undoubtedly told them about Malcolm X before they were even old enough to become "gangstas."

Do you seriously expect me to believe that even "gangstas" can't tell the difference between a White person and a black person? ("Do they even know they're black?")

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I wouldn't say racial issues are the "last thing on our minds" in general. I said that in crime it is not neccesarily racially related most of the time. You have these battle lines drawn between Black and White America. I think you may need to expand your diatribes to Black America before talking about mines.

The problem is an overall culture of criminality. To be fair, it's not just with blacks. I believe that it's a symptom of a deeper problem (which would be related to liberal permissiveness, Cultural Marxism, and anti-racist/multiculturalist philosophies). No matter if individual criminals are consciously thinking about race at the exact moment they commit their crimes, the fact remains that crime is a sociological phenomenon and race is most definitely a part of our society and our national political consciousness.

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In the past, race had a huge impact on Black peoples lives, therefore it should come to no surprise that the dialect was lively.

What about now?

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You don't know anything about me. You don't know HOW I've been punished. You don't even know the circumstances of what I did. But as long as the key is thrown away right?

What I know about you is what you have told me. You said that you committed crimes against people.

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Here we go with the "Black criminal" BS. You don't know those people to be labeling somebody.

I didnít label them. They labeled themselves. They go on TV, they make public speeches Ė theyíre proud of what theyíre doing now, as well they should be. A former criminal turning his life around and becoming a contributing member of society Ė thatís something to celebrate. Letís have a parade.

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You don't know what they've been through.

And they likely donít know what their victims have been through. Everything is about sympathy for the criminal, but who cares what happens to the victims of crime, right?

When MS-13 thugs savagely beat and rape a mentally handicapped 14-year-old girl in a wheelchair, I really donít give a ratís ass about what they have been through. I honestly donít know what that 14-year-old girl went through either, but it was still heartbreaking to read about.

Theyíre even worse down south of the border. Those drug cartels down there have been known to slaughter whole villages of men, women, and children.

But Iím sure youíre right. I donít know what theyíve been through.

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If someone walked up to you and called you a Racist out the blue you'd think it was unfair, so don't go around labeling others then.

Well, nobody has walked up to me and said that, but the label is still thrown around rather freely.

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You should be darn glad that the are reformed and that you hear about it.

I hear about it because itís a common human interest story which is perfectly in line with the anti-racist philosophy. It makes good propaganda.

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Less violence and less drama. Nothing about that is self perpetuating.

But it is passed on from generation to generation. This is especially true among Mexicans.

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Then that makes bost of us. And you can't possibly know what Black are thinking either.
The difference between you and I is that I make an effort and that I live agmonst your majority White American culture. So I know enough.

What makes you think that I havenít made the effort? Oh, thatís right. Itís because I live in Arizona, so thereís no possible way I ever could have met a black person.

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I seriously doubt your Grandfather would have blurted that out in front of a Black person anyway.

Hard to say. Iíve never seen him in the presence of black people, so I have no idea what his demeanor might have been. As I said above, they just wanted to stay away from black people.

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Sometimes White people say things where they don't consciously mean to be offensive but don't really think about it and don't realize they are.

One time I was over my White friends house and we had just gotten out the pool and I was barefeet. I was the only Black guy there. We walked into his mothers house for a snack and sat down. and my friends dad blurted out in front of everybody " Whoa, I didn't know the bottom of you peoples feet was White'!!!

You would take offense at that?

Iíll concede it is a pretty silly thing to say, especially if a grown man claims to have never known about that particular physical characteristic. I even recall a joke about this particular phenomenon back in high school.

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(Gasp) Practice what you preach.

I always do.

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...I had to laugh at this one. Do you realize the stupid things you people say about Black people here? If I were a Black liberal, I'd have the same reaction of anger and dismay when I came here also! You all talk about Black people like dogs! What the hell do you expect people to think?

I would expect them to see that there are some White people who have an unfavorable impression of blacks (along with other non-whites), and perhaps they might try to see things from our point of view for once.

After all, Iíve been compelled to listen to the black point of view for nearly 40 years of my life, so I donít think itís too much to ask that people listen to our point of view once in a while.

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I agree that people shouldn't react violently when they hear it, however, the word carries such a big sting that its almost a natural reaction to the naked liberal.

Itís not a natural reaction, nor is it even ďalmostĒ a natural reaction. Itís a trained reaction. Itís conditioned in people. I learned very early in life that there were certain words I wasnít supposed to say. The ďn-wordĒ wasnít one of them, actually.

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My White Great Great Great and probably a couple more Greats grandfather was actually a nice 30 something year old man. He was married and owned slaves but treated them rather nicely. After the Civil war he freed most of them and even supplied them with goodies. However, he didn't want to let go of my 17 year old Grandmother. Though she could have left he urged her to stay, never supplying her with an adequate reason why. By that time, he had already fathered one of her kids, and on one rainy evening she decided to leave. Story goes he was heartbroken. He sat outside almost everyday staring at the road wishing for her return. And one day she did. She told him there was nothing out there for her as a Black woman and that Black people weren't really free at all. So there he remained with his white wife and Mistress. Soon my grandmother became pregnant with his second Black child. Word got out that he had a Black woman living in the house with him and a mob was sent to his home one night. The house was set on fire and him, His wife,2 white kids,2 Black kids and mistress were forced from their homes...

Ugh. its a long story....besides You probably aren't interested.

The point is, not all stories we hear are negative.

Well, this is part of the reason why race-mixing is a bad thing. And these slaveowners who mixed with their slaves? What can I say? They brought these people over purely for the sake of profit, they mixed with them, and they perpetuated a system which eventually broke the country apart into Civil War. Thatís what happens when you introduce cheap non-white labor into a White society, and that, to me, is a good reason to argue against a racially-mixed society.

Look at what we have here now. The country is a mess. Your heartbroken White grandfather pining the loss of his 17-year-old black concubine is touching, but it only serves as a further reminder of just how deep and far back the problem goes. We have a huge mess to clean up in this country as a result of these shenanigans and hanky-panky taking place on the plantations.

Itís not just with the blacks, but the whole ďrace cardĒ thing threw the whole country up for grabs. Now, we have people from all over the world coming here and taking over, all because some White politicians 40 years ago felt guilty about what some White monarchists did 400 years ago. So, now, we have to deal with these immigrant snot-nosed brats like Mr. Chinese Chicken all because some Whites felt guilty and heartbroken after reading Uncle Tomís Cabin. Itís insanity.

Itís not your fault, and itís not even the fault of black people. Itís the ideology which has screwed things up. Itís that line of thinking which has dominated Americaís political consciousness for generations which is killing this country, and thatís what I challenge.

After all, if what you're saying about blacks is true, then when Reverend Jeremiah Wright said "God damn America," then mobs of blacks would have rushed him and beat the crap out of him for "hatred." That's what Whites who oppose their own race do, so if blacks don't do the same thing, then your statement is invalid.

When I see thousands of blacks violently attacking a few lone Black Nationalists (or gang-bangers, for that matter) on the streets, then you might have a point.

Until then, you're just blowing hot air.

[/b]

Different Races, different movement, different history, different reactions. BNism may not neccesarily be "opposed" by Black people, but it definitely isn't appraised either. Furthermore, our movement is way more organized, not as harsh, and our history makes our approach more defensive If anything. Saying "God Damn America" has nothing to do with anything racist, though he imparticilar himself may have meant it for racial reasons. Many people around America feel the same way,rather it be politically, or economically. Like you said, America is a mess to you, which in ways could be interpreted as you saying pretty much the same thing.

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I can assure you that White liberals do think about it consciously. They've been trained and conditioned to do so all their lives. Blacks don't have to worry about Political Correctness. They can say whatever they want about White people or America and get away with it. White people won't protest when blacks say Politically Incorrect things, and more importantly, non-whites don't complain about it either.

Of course not! Yes Black people can say things you probably can't. Guess Why? Take a wild shot at it. You are in no position to question what someone else has been conditioned to think.

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Do you actually witness this? Or are you just assuming?

Witnessed and heard about it. Unfortunately its always by someone else a day later.

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Anti-racism is a rather convoluted and often contradictory ideology, so for the average White person, it can be exceedingly confusing.

And WN is cut and CLEAR?

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If it's none of our business, then I could just as easily turn that around and say that you have no business criticizing or complaining when Whites use the word. As long as you're trying to dictate to White people which words they can or can not use, then it most definitely becomes our business.

Like I said before, true freedom of speech allows you to speak your mind, however, If a term is considered offensive coming from a White persons mouth then just don't say it.

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So, you just go up to a stranger's house and claim to be a long lost relative? That would probably raise someone's suspicions.

Its not that simple.

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But weren't you raised by the Black side of your family? When they're with you every day, they would obviously have more influence over your perspective than someone you might have talked to for an hour or two (if that).

Not really, and not all stories coming from my Black side of the family were negative either. And not all stories coming from my White side were positive; the ones who did want to talk about it that is.

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Why doesn't it matter? Itcertainly matters to me, just as your family history matters to you.

Doesn't matter because responses like this are common agmonst White people when it comes to history. I was talking about the response, not your personal family history.

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That's not necessarily true. Maybe they don't use whips, but they still have their methods of controlling these people. In most cases, however, it's not Whites doing it, but members of their own race. It's common practice for Mexican "coyotes" to hold family members hostage until someone can pay their fee for taking them over the border. The "coyotes" are involved with the Mexican drug cartels, and they are very powerful.
They've also found Asians working in illegal sweatshops and in brothels, and again, the perpetrators are their own people.

Thats true.

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Maybe you don't care about that because the perpetrators aren't White,

Now look who's playing the Race card.

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and if you can't tar the White race with something negative, you'll ignore it.

Oh Please! Save that. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard that argument from a White Nationalist I'd be rich. Its not about " destroying the White Race" Its about my people and helping them. White people are not a target unless they make themselves one. Mexican people are not a target unless they make themselves one. ect. You're playing the victim role as much as anyone else you complain about doing it.

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In other words, you've lost the right to complain about slavery as a racial issue. If you truly cared about the mistreatment of human beings, you would address these things, but by demonstrating that you DON'T care about these people, you're revealing a different agenda. The agenda is an anti-White agenda, not "anti-racist" and definitely not "anti-slavery." You just use slavery as a pretext to justify your anti-White agenda, but you obviously don't care if other people are exploited or mistreated.

Oh? And where in my statements did I say anything about being anti White? Where in my statements did I say anything about the purpose of what I was doing was anti White. Certainly, WNism is Anti Black by the things you all say and support but Bnism is not to make Whites an enemy. You must be talking about B. Supremacists or the Black Panther. As for the illegals, I think as much as anyone else radical or not, that they should be deported.

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But they're not leaving on their own, so they'll have to be arrested and deported. Those who shelter and employ them should also be arrested and put on trial for treason.

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I agree, but the whole treason idea is ridiculous.

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But you, as an anti-racist, are contradicting your own ideology. Aren't anti-racists supposed to love ALL people regardless of their race, color, or national origin? Or do antis only say that stuff just because it sounds good? Do they really mean it? Obviously not.

I never said I "hated" anyone. What are you talking about. If you are an illegal you should leave. If you are not following the rules you should leave. That doesn't mean I hate them.

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Well, that's what blacks complain about quite often. If that's not the true basis of their complaint, then they shouldn't bring it up at all. But since many, many, many, many, many blacks have continually brought up the issue of slavery at the hands of their White "masters," I feel that it's safe to conclude that blacks still have lingering resentments against Whites because of this.

Talking about our history doesn't make it a grudge. Its going to be talked about forever as long as its apart of our peoples experience and life stories. If you have no White guilt, then you shouldn't be complaining about whether its talked about or not.

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I'm just going by what blacks have said many, many times. Are you saying that I should just disregard what black people say from here on out?

I really don't care what you think. I can't control that. However, I think its merely a generalization if you think a few Blacks speak for us all.

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Do Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi Goldberg, Bill Cosby, Condoleeza Rice count? These are just a few names off the top of my head of blacks who have complained about slavery and "racism." (I could probably find many, many more if I did a search.) Do these people qualify as "Afrocentrists"? If so, then there may be a lot more of them about then you're suggesting.

Afrocentrists come in many different forms and with many different beleifs. You think that just because they talk about slavery and confront the past then its automatically a complaint. Just because you talk about American history doesn't mean you're complaining, or that you're Afrocentric. As usual, you generalize.

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Because it's not just "your" history. The White race apparently has had a pivotal role in "your" history, and since you mention (and often disparage) the White race in "your" history, then it also becomes "our" history as well.

Yes but most white people don't count Black history as apart of general American history. Neither can many of them identfy how we feel as a people. Certainly not slavery, Jim Crow, or other oppressive matters at the hands of America.

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The "White Guilt" has been instilled into White people, practically from birth. Just about every White person born since 1950 (earlier in some areas of the country) has had this crap fed to them - in schools, in churches, from TV shows and movies, from the news media, at Boy Scout meetings, at their place of employment. Friends who have served in the military have told me of their "racial education" classes.
This has been going on before you were even born, Quan. This may seem all brand new and exciting for you, but for some of us, it's getting quite old.

So because White people have White guitlt they should become more hostile, they should equally complain as many other groups do, and they should equally stir more tension.

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So, the defensive reaction is not because Whites have guilt. Why should anyone feel guilty over things they didn't do personally? They get defensive because they're tired of hearing it.

Oh Please! And the thing is, they need to understand that no one is trying to make them feel guilty or talking about them personally. If their tired of hearing it then it must mean they have White guilt or they wouldn't care if they heard it or not! Thats TOO bad, Its still apart of History, so they are still going to hear it,however I do agree it shouldn't effect them negatively, nor should they take it personally. We have to learn and live White history and culture everyday, they can hear about ours for a month.

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You're familiar with the term "overkill," aren't you? That's where the anti-racists blew it. I firmly believe that anti-racist fanaticism will be their undoing. It was the main weakness of Marxist-Leninists, and it will turn out to be the weakness of Cultural Marxists as well.

I think the whole racial discussion will simply blow down to it beig discussed more often. revealing double standards, stereotypes, and alot of things that are hidden by PC, which I dislike.

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I don't. But the question has to be asked nonetheless.

More than one question.

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It's as if you're trying to imply that a criminal does not know if his victim is White or Black, or that he's somehow so racially and liberally well-adjusted and enlightened that he just doesn't see race. He judges his victim not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

(Chuckles) No, what I'm saying is when you rob a person, the motive is to take the money and get out. Race is not a factor. You're hearing it from the mouth of a Black person who used to be the same way. Most targets of crime are those close in proximaty. Its like this. Robbers, crime doers, rapists, they all target the weak, the most valuable or the vulnerable regardless what Race the perpertrator is. If White people were indeed some kind of racial target, they'd get dealt waaaay more. I don't know where you get such an idea.

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Of course, you have to realize that White people will react that way to you, as a black person. When Whites are among their own family and friends and there are no non-whites within earshot, they're not necessarily so shy or blushing.

I pretty much know that.

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There were blacks who lived nearby, but the thing was, they didn't view them as "slaves" or "servants" or anything like that. They just wanted to stay away from them. To them, blacks might have been "strange creatures from outer space." They didn't hate them or want to cause them any suffering. All they wanted was to stay away from them.

Those 2 statements are almost contradictory. Surely they didn't think of them as "strange creatures". Clearly ,if their impression was to "stay away" then they held a much higher opinion.

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Unfortunately, time caught up with them, and today, that once-pristine Dutch community is now 95% black. It was once a safe, quiet, lovely community, but now it's all ruined. Little by little, this has been happening all over America.

Its more of class than Race. Higher income families move out, lower class families move in, housing value decreases and so goes your chain. However, I know alot of predominately Black neighborhoods that are not in crime and very nice also. Back in Brooklyn when I was young I used to think there was no such thing also until I got out more. However truth remains Majority Blacks live in middle class mixed neighborhoods.

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Well, if they're saying racial things on a daily basis, then it stands to reason that they're thinking about it too. How can they not? How can anyone just ignore racial matters when it's all around us?

We shouldn't.

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Oh I see. So, you're saying that I'm just so torn up with guilt? Is that what you think? You're really way off the mark.

I never said that. But apparently If you get aggravated by Blacks talking about slavery and our history then you hold some kind of feeling. And the only reason It could aggravate you is that you feel you or your people today are a direct target of what is said. That Blacks hold a opinion on Whites today about slavery.

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Well, someone has been filling their heads with these ideas. Something obviously motivates them to do what they do. Whether you like it or not, they are very much a part of your community and your culture, just as you would say that "racism" is a part of White culture.

Crime is very well apart of life, not particular cultures. Crme happens all around the country and the world, same as Racism.

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Well, when thousands of black people from all over the country pay travel expenses to descend on a town like Jena, Louisiana in defense of black criminality, then it gives me good cause to think that criminality is supported in the black community. Jesse Jackson has made his whole career out of supporting black criminality.

Oh lord. This is ironic. I just got done talking about this to some of my White friends who seemed to have said the same thing. I think most White people are completely clueless. They were protesting the charge of attempted murder by a shoe.Not one Black person interviewed ever said those boys shouldn't have been charged at all. The unfairness was cited by the fact of the events that lead up to the beating. They had all the right to protest trying to throw someones life away over something not as serious as the charge.

What about those 6 White girls who kidnapped and jumped that one girl in the house which was all over the news also. Should they be charged with Attempted murder also? Or will you defend these young White criminals?

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There was a black preacher in Northern California who organized a protest against a White homeowner who shot a black criminal who was attempting a home invasion robbery. No word of criticism for the black criminal, as it was all the White guy's fault. This is quite common; I've seen this quite often over the past few decades.

I heard of a White man who shot 2 Black illegal aliens coming out someone elses yard running away with their back turned If thats the one you mean. It doesn't defend the fact that they robbed his neighbors home, but I feel he certainly overreacted by shooting them, especially when they posed no immediate threat to him personally. Actually it did draw critisism on both ends, some who supported the shooting and others who opposed it. The White guy was never even charged.

There was a case where a Black guy shot a White Italian guy in his yard not to long ago who walked on his property hollering At the Black dude about his son. Black guy shot him. He was charhed with Aggravated assault, but the White guy who shot the Black guys in the back in another persons yard got away.

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That's what the L.A. riots were all about.

No it wasn't. The police beat the heck out of that guy continuously for no reason, long after he was down! Continuously jumping and beating him with their batons. THAT is attempted murder, not by a shoe! which was cruel and unusual. Black people got tired of the t BS at the hands of racist white cops as the ygot away with it and the tension stirred up and boiled over. It was an overeaction to you maybe, But If rioting was the only way to show the country that things like that are not a joke back then, so be it as it was.

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So, don't tell me that criminality is not supported in the black community when it's quite obvious that they do. I'm not saying that *all* blacks support criminality, but the obvious consensus of their community leaders gives clear support for criminal behavior.

Wait wait wait. Crime is not supported by the Black community by a long shot. My mom used to beg me not to go out on the streets, but being naive, I didn't listen. Everyone who lives in inner cities are not thugs or apart of the problem. Inner city mayors do want to get rid of the problem,some have even proposed stiffer penalties. I agree, I think they don't try hard enough, but It takes a community effort, and a parental one to control the problem. As long as poverty exists, so will crime.

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If what you say has even a glimmer of truth to it, then there would have been no protests in Jena, Louisiana. There would have been no L.A. riots in 1992. Heck, there wouldn't be so much criminality AT ALL if blacks took a more decisive community stance against crime.

What makes you think some don't? Unfortunately it is not that simple. The "snitch" always ends up the first one dead. Some Blacks in communities are frightened by this, some even scared to walk out of there homes.

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They focus far too much on "racial profiling" and what the police do, and not enough on what the criminals do. This makes me think that they're not really honest about wanting to stop crime in their communities.

Ha! The wack MEDIA focuses on RACIAL PRFILING because its a bigger story. Who cares about Black criminals right? Granted racial profiling should be a focus, however, we need to discuss the crime issue too. Just not you. You'd be ready to throw away the key.

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It seems that they would rather tie the hands of law enforcement so they can commit even more crimes.

Who is they?

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But they DID proclaim his innocence.

No they did not. They proclaimed the fact that a Brotha Got off.

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And you speak for all blacks, do you? I recently had occasion to glance at the O.J. Simpson message board on the IMDb, and there are still some people out there who think he didn't do it.

Of course. Public opinion. How do you know he did for sure? Were you there?

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I've never said that all black people are criminals.

GO back and read your qoute when I asked you who is "they". What does that sentence sound like to you? A Generalization.

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It's not that I choose to believe one message over another, but when I get the impression that someone is lying to me or not giving me the straight story, I will likely form a negative opinion of them. If they can't get their stories straight, or their words or ideas conflict with each other, then my first reaction is to not trust them.

I honestly can't change what you think. We say things in private that we wouldn't say in public just like White people do, and all races for that matter scared of how the other race may interpret it. However, that doesn't mean we all hold a grudge.

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That's the bottom line: You don't give us a reason to trust you, and without trust, there's no possible way we can live together in peace. I don't want to have to go around watching my back all my life. I don't want to have to worry about my family and friends being in danger from doing something as simple as going to the grocery store. That's why I favor racial separation, so we don't have to worry about all that stuff.

And you think We do? Death is a heartbeat away. You think we want to have to look behind our backs everyday too? You go ahead favoring your Racial separation, thinking its safe.

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I don't know which of my buddies has been saying this, nor am I aware of anyone making this specific claim. On the contrary, most White Nationalists seem to be of the opinion that the status of blacks in America today is far better than it would have been if their ancestors were never brought over in the first place.

No. Black Americas today are far off better than they would have been If they weren't enslaved at all, treated better by whites back then, If hostility and racism wasn't prevalent, If unfair laws were nonexistent, and if Opportunities were always fair. THAT is a better economy and social life, not race itelf. No one asked to be here and that is not in our control. Us being brought over is not our issue. Its not our quarry.Actually if we weren't brought over, Most Black people today In America to be quite honest Genetically wouldn't exist. Neither would Whites.

You might wanna shake your family tree a little harder.

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No, but someone undoubtedly told them about Malcolm X before they were even old enough to become "gangstas."
Do you seriously expect me to believe that even "gangstas" can't tell the difference between a White person and a black person? ("Do they even know they're black?")

People become that way by their enviroment and what they see. Oh please. Yea. we listened to Malcolm X then got older and decided to rob some whie people. That makes no sense at all. Of course ganstas know whose Black and whose white, and they'd "equally" Rob them both!

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What about now?

Yes I beleive History has set off a chain reaction of unfortunate struggle for Black Americans today. If you're culture even if it is due to your countries laws and histoirc unjustices towards Blacks, derived around poverty and crime, then your chances of ever seeing or being anything greater greatly decreases. You first have the negative surroundings, growing up in a life where education is not upheld alot. Then you have the many obstacles very easy for you to trip up on, then you have the money issue. Its a challenge but of course it can be done. And It does. Everyday. Its more of the individual also. They have to wanna try to be a better person, they have to want to leave. But yes, History did plant a bad seed for Black people intially.

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What I know about you is what you have told me. You said that you committed crimes against people.

What crimes? So throw away the key on us? You'd rather pay taxes to keep me in jail opposed to me becoming a better person thorugh education and Jobs and paying them myself which also benefits society and the economy?

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I didn’t label them. They labeled themselves. They go on TV, they make public speeches – they’re proud of what they’re doing now, as well they should be. A former criminal turning his life around and becoming a contributing member of society – that’s something to celebrate. Let’s have a parade.

It IS something to be proud of. You wouldn't know would you? Darn right.

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And they likely don’t know what their victims have been through. Everything is about sympathy for the criminal, but who cares what happens to the victims of crime, right?

Thats not true. the victims are sympathized. Victimes of crimes are on TV everyday, some who even meet their attackers. They even have shows dedicated to victimes of crimes. Don't even try that.

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When MS-13 thugs savagely beat and rape a mentally handicapped 14-year-old girl in a wheelchair, I really don’t give a rat’s ass about what they have been through. I honestly don’t know what that 14-year-old girl went through either, but it was still heartbreaking to read about.
They’re even worse down south of the border. Those drug cartels down there have been known to slaughter whole villages of men, women, and children.
But I’m sure you’re right. I don’t know what they’ve been through

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It is bad. Never said It wasn't.

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Well, nobody has walked up to me and said that, but the label is still thrown around rather freely.

So is "Black criminal".

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What makes you think that I haven’t made the effort? Oh, that’s right. It’s because I live in Arizona, so there’s no possible way I ever could have met a black person.

Oh yea yea. Like you told me: You were raised around mostly white people right? Surely they had a greater emphasis on your opinion opposed to a 1 (or 2) hour conversation with Black people.

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You would take offense at that?

No it was a stupid remark to make. Just like what your granddaddy said. Not offensive, Just stupid.

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Well, this is part of the reason why race-mixing is a bad thing. And these slaveowners who mixed with their slaves? What can I say? They brought these people over purely for the sake of profit, they mixed with them, and they perpetuateda system which eventually broke the country apart into Civil War. That’s what happens when you introduce cheap non-white labor into a White society, and that, to me, is a good reason to argue against a racially-mixed society.

Its not race that caused the problems. Don't you get that? The part I highlighted in your quote is the correct reason.

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Look at what we have here now. The country is a mess. Your heartbroken White grandfather pining the loss of his 17-year-old black concubine is touching, but it only serves as a further reminder of just how deep and far back the problem goes. We have a huge mess to clean up in this country as a result of these shenanigans and hanky-panky taking place on the plantations.

Pffff.That...was funny. But seriously, Like I said, Its the bahavior of White people back then that caused problems. Blacks rarely did anything during slavery but work as they could. The Behavior of White people caused the problems, not RACE itself or race mixing.

Having sex with slaves back then was quite common. It was easy access and I guarantee many white people who come on here sniviling about "bad Black people" would have been doing the same thing had it existed today. I guarantee if your family line is generational you have Black family members somewhere.

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It’s not your fault, and it’s not even the fault of black people. It’s the ideology which has screwed things up. It’s that line of thinking which has dominated America’s political consciousness for generations which is killing this country, and that’s what I challenge.

Finally you said it. Then stop blaming it on Race, race mixing, and the fact that we were brought over as slaves. Those things are irrelevent.

Love your Race and support it and help it grow as such. but Hostility only adds to a problem building unneccesary enemies, It doesn't fix one. Thats what BNism is about.

Apparently you feel that you are the only one that can make extrapolated assumptions based on another persons post.

Apparently? Or are you assuming thats what I think?

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If you are attempting to raise my ire by implying I am guilty of "White Guilt", you are wasting your time. I am proud of my Race and it's accomplishments. I do not suffer from White Guilt.

You are the one who assumed I held a grudge against the "big bad white man" Not I.And The only possible reason that could be is because you hold some type of a grudge and a thought that all Black people hate Whites particualily because of history. That would imply your need to dillute white guilt by assuming all Blacks hate Whites.

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Or, you can continue until one of us gets sick of you and has your account deleted.

That seems to come quite common to "antis". Why do you all need to become angry in the first place. If you're so "openminded" then you shouldn't oust someone because you disagree with what they have to say. You are the one who said something to me first. I didn't say anything to you. Next time don't assume what you think I meant and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You honestly think I'm supposed to back down because you may get angry and "have my account deleted"? I don't care what you do or what your threats are against my account regardless of who or what you are. I will be respectful and speak my mind peacefully and maturely as I have been doing, but you will not just talk over me. going there was unnessessary.

Get your story and fake conspiracies straight and then maybe I'll take you serious.

Again,

No one cares if you take us serious. I really doubt you ever will take us seriously. That's fine.

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Originally Posted by Quan

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Originally Posted by KingGunther

Apparently you feel that you are the only one that can make extrapolated assumptions based on another persons post.

Apparently? Or are you assuming thats what I think?

I could never assume to understand what goes on in the minds of you people. There is lots of sociologists that are trying to figure out what makes non-Whites (particularly Africans) think the way they do. I am not one of them.

I only base my responses of what you post.

That brings us to:

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Originally Posted by Quan

You are the one who assumed I held a grudge against the "big bad white man" Not I.And The only possible reason that could be is because you hold some type of a grudge and a thought that all Black people hate Whites particualily because of history. That would imply your need to dillute white guilt by assuming all Blacks hate Whites.

I will give you this much: I cannot find the post I based the statement on. It may have been in another thread or by another poster. Ooops....my bad. You can go one now wearing that badge.

However, your attempts to pin this guilt BS on me or anyone else is nothing more then futile. I don't feel it. I don't feel the guilt nor the sympathy.

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Originally Posted by Quan

That seems to come quite common to "antis". Why do you all need to become angry in the first place. If you're so "openminded" then you shouldn't oust someone because you disagree with what they have to say. You are the one who said something to me first. I didn't say anything to you. Next time don't assume what you think I meant and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You honestly think I'm supposed to back down because you may get angry and "have my account deleted"? I don't care what you do or what your threats are against my account regardless of who or what you are. I will be respectful and speak my mind peacefully and maturely as I have been doing, but you will not just talk over me. going there was unnessessary.

First, no one is angry. I am just tired of people filling up the OV forum with the same repetitive BS. And you are just a rehash of crap that's been here before.

Second, don't give instructions to me on how to behave on this forum, you are the guest here.

Third, it's an open forum, if you want to address a select audience and not have others respond, take it to PMs.

Fourth, I would have less respect for you then I already do if you backed down. I am not angry with your tiresome posts, I am just sick of them.

Fifth, I will restate....do not give instructions on what I will and will not do. It is not your role here.

You obviously, Have not been beaten down by a large group of thug niggas. No, I don't think your heart is in the right place to argue with anyone here. Maybe your "negro side" keeps you from being excepted. Hmmmmmmm. Maybe your non exceptance prevents you from thinking rationally. Anyway, you sure like to hear yourself quack.

No one cares if you take us serious. I really doubt you ever will take us seriously. That's fine.

That post had nothing to do with you.

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I could never assume to understand what goes on in the minds of you people. There is lots of sociologists that are trying to figure out what makes non-Whites (particularly Africans) think the way they do. I am not one of them.

I only base my responses of what you post.

Does that really require a response...

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I will give you this much: I cannot find the post I based the statement on. It may have been in another thread or by another poster. Ooops....my bad. You can go one now wearing that badge.

Of course you can't.

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However, your attempts to pin this guilt BS on me or anyone else is nothing more then futile. I don't feel it. I don't feel the guilt nor the sympathy

Tch. I'm not trying to pin anything on you. You pinned it on yourself.

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First, no one is angry. I am just tired of people filling up the OV forum with the same repetitive BS. And you are just a rehash of crap that's been here before.

You all do the same thing! Its the same negative crap everyday! Who are you to talk abouth others when you all are the same way? You all whine more than anyone else you complain about.

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Second, don't give instructions to me on how to behave on this forum, you are the guest here.

I don't give 2 cents of a nickel what I am. Don't tell me how to behave either. especially when I did nothing to you. I don't care what you are here.

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Third, it's an open forum, if you want to address a select audience and not have others respond, take it to PMs.

I don't care about you. Neither do I care about hearing from you through PM. Don't.

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Fourth, I would have less respect for you then I already do if you backed down. I am not angry with your tiresome posts, I am just sick of them.

I don't give a flowing dam what you're sick of. I didn't ask you to like me or my posts. To be honest, your posts aren't exactly "enlightening" either.

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Fifth, I will restate....do not give instructions on what I will and will not do. It is not your role here.

And don't tell me what my role is. My role is to peacefully speak my mind. You're basically saying "stay in your place". Its not floating with me.

And I will RESTATE, I will not allow myself to be disrespected intentionally by YOU or anyone else. Just because you're a "member" doesn't mean you have the right to be a b&*^% about it.

We are here because most of us are concerned about the future of our race and way of life. You are more than welcome to post your opposing view. And you may be the best at arguing your point on the planet earth, but your argument falls on deaf ears here. I did not wake up one day and have these points of view. It took years of reverse discrimination and victimization to get to this place. One thing you need to understand is your oppinion can change nothing, and when it comes to the preservation of my race and way of life you will be plowed under with the rest of my enemies. So I will not argue or post anymore on this thread because you cannot win here. Nor can I, the true contest will be on the field of battle and I look forward to seeing you there. Good day.

We are here because most of us are concerned about the future of our race and way of life. You are more than welcome to post your opposing view. And you may be the best at arguing your point on the planet earth, but your argument falls on deaf ears here. I did not wake up one day and have these points of view. It took years of reverse discrimination and victimization to get to this place. One thing you need to understand is your oppinion can change nothing, and when it comes to the preservation of my race and way of life you will be plowed under with the rest of my enemies. So I will not argue or post anymore on this thread because you cannot win here. Nor can I, the true contest will be on the field of battle and I look forward to seeing you there. Good day.

Did I come here and proclaim myself as "God" or something? I don't expect to change your opinion, I proclaim to voice mines.