I disagree with the premise that "many active so-called libertarians are socialists in libertarian clothing."

There seems to be two kinds of socialists in the libertarian movement:

Naive socialists - people so wrapped up in socialist culture that they have a difficult time thinking outside thesocialist bubble. They drag along a great deal of socialist baggage during discussions of what they think arelibertarian discussions. This is the larger group of the two. As soon as the going gets tough in discussionsthey revert to socialist thinking. Some can be reasoned with to some degree but many cannot recognizethe danger of their constant reversions. [On the other hand I am often accused of being the opposite and notholding basic libertarian ideals either].

The second group is the one of real concern. Socialist activists acting as libertarians. The percentage variesfrom one discussion group to another, one group of writers to another, and among libertarian groups. Theyare hired or self planted internal saboteurs. Anti-war protest/anti-nuclear/environmental groups are full of foreignhired and socialist group hired and paid for influence peddlers - those tenticles branch into libertarian groupswhen libertarians work with socialist groups in common cause. Not a pretty thing and libertarians seems to havea naive streak about the issue. Put it this way - when I was in the Air Force we got security briefings aboutforeign spies. Those briefings only concerned conventional full time spies working directly for foreign governmentsdirectly seeking military secrets. Basically every city with any military base or military contractors had foreign spies.The more interesting and larger numbers are when you talk about economic spies [estimated at 3,500 full time fromChina alone], plants in the media in the hundreds, plants in politics - at least dozens at any given time, and so forth.Unelected government bureaucrats - likely huge numbers. Only estimates but you can be sure that thereare many pretend libertarians in the mix.

Dennis, Please clarify for me; are you alleging that libertarians with a strong anti-war focus are socialists pretending to be libertarians?

In that case there would be 3 types:

Libertarians who have a strong anti-war focus and aren't socialists.

Naive socialist libertarians who have a stong anti-war focus - think they are libertarians but hold many socialist positions.

Bought and paid for or self actualized socialists using libertarians as useful idiots in their Anti-war [may or may not be pro-foreign power] campaigns. The core and organizers of such movements generally have foreign source money and support or the support of big money socialists with such ties.

Dennis, Please clarify for me; are you alleging that libertarians with a strong anti-war focus are socialists pretending to be libertarians?

In that case there would be 3 types:

Libertarians who have a strong anti-war focus and aren't socialists.

Naive socialist libertarians who have a stong anti-war focus - think they are libertarians but hold many socialist positions.

Bought and paid for or self actualized socialists using libertarians as useful idiots in their Anti-war [may or may not be pro-foreign power] campaigns. The core and organizers of such movements generally have foreign source money and support or the support of big money socialists with such ties.

Dennis

Thank you for the clarification. As an anti-war, noninterventionist libertarian myself, I'm glad you weren't intending to allege I was a socialist.

Dennis, Please clarify for me; are you alleging that libertarians with a strong anti-war focus are socialists pretending to be libertarians?

In that case there would be 3 types: Libertarians who have a strong anti-war focus and aren't socialists. Naive socialist libertarians who have a stong anti-war focus - think they are libertarians but hold many socialist positions. Bought and paid for or self actualized socialists using libertarians as useful idiots in their Anti-war [may or may not be pro-foreign power] campaigns. The core and organizers of such movements generally have foreign source money and support or the support of big money socialists with such ties. Dennis

Thank you for the clarification. As an anti-war, noninterventionist libertarian myself, I'm glad you weren't intending to allege I was a socialist.

In discussions with Debbie Clark on Atlantis_II [she has been into the anti-war protests for a long time] she discussed how it does seem like the leadership of the anti-war protests are largely communists.

The primary reason I am concerned about mixing with socialists is the blurring of vision and muddling the waters concerning any possible libertarian message. I am unable to distinquish any clear libertarian vision on many issues due to the strong socialist influence [and other problems] within groups that call themselves libertarian of one kind or another. As a result I would not call myself a libertarian of any type but would find it necessary to create a new term. I have not decided what would be a good name.

I am also involved in preparing recorded books for blind and dyslexic folks.

Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:57 AM

The primary reason I am concerned about mixing with socialists is the blurring of vision and muddling the waters concerning any possible libertarian message. I am unable to distinquish any clear libertarian vision on many issues due to the strong socialist influence [and other problems] within groups that call themselves libertarian of one kind or another. As a result I would not call myself a libertarian of any type but would find it necessary to create a new term. I have not decided what would be a good name.

Dennis

You might use the term I have reserved for myself --- pain in the ass. Like the kid who reminds the Emperor that he is bare-ass.

The primary reason I am concerned about mixing with socialists is the blurring of vision and muddling the waters concerning any possible libertarian message. I am unable to distinquish any clear libertarian vision on many issues due to the strong socialist influence [and other problems] within groups that call themselves libertarian of one kind or another. As a result I would not call myself a libertarian of any type but would find it necessary to create a new term. I have not decided what would be a good name. Dennis

You might use the term I have reserved for myself --- pain in the ass. Like the kid who reminds the Emperor that he is bare-ass. Ba'al Chatzaf

Perhaps I could be the pain in the "pain in the ass" indicating the "pain in the ass" is being watched as well :-)