Posted
by
timothyon Thursday October 10, 2013 @11:32AM
from the cross-pollination dept.

itwbennett writes "PC maker Lenovo accidentally posted manuals on its website showing an Android laptop called the IdeaPad A10. Lenovo spokesman Chris Millward said the company had planned on making an official announcement for the device, and that 'the product has not been canceled. It will be going out to the market.' Launch dates and pricing to come, but specs show that it could be a budget product."

Agreed, I quite like the look of this. It's like a decent size tablet, with keyboard and built in hard screen protector (the keyboard). I never fancied a netbook (too small and under-powered for windows) and haven't missed my proper laptop much since it broke, yet I often wish I had a keyboard on my nexus 7, and maybe a bit bigger screen. Yes I know larger tablets and separate keyboards are available, but suddenly just by putting these things together in this nice package Lenovo has made something I really

If all you want is a keyboard for your Nexus 7, it's a solved problem.

No it isn't. The Android 4.3 update broke the ZAGGkeys Flex and several other Bluetooth keyboards that worked under Android 4.2, mistakenly recognizing them as "non-alphanumeric keyboards" (that is, gamepads). And it can't be fixed without wiping and rooting the device to rename a keyboard layout file.

I haven't found a good one that works as well as something like a traditional netbook where its easy to grab and type on a train or hold on my lap. I think the asus transformer is a better solution for this problem than nexus 7+ bluetooth keyboard.

Actually, this is more valuable than a full fledged PC Windows laptop. Because it supports a SIM card; and camera, HDMI out of the box at budget price; it's a wonderful appliance. You can connect a headphone/mic and make and receive calls; you can write software that takes advantage of the availability of these added peripherals as options.

And yet, ironically, a Windows laptop will be better at passively consuming content (hulu, netflix, etc.). Since, obviously, the fact that it uses an ARM/runs Android is evidence it's a mobile device, and not a computer.

Why is that?... I don't understand where this arbitrary distinction of "that's not a computer" comes from.

Mostly content providers who set up separate licenses for mobile/computers(meaning PCs?)/consoles/televised/disk-based/on-demand-to-cablebox and probably a few others I'm not aware of. That way, they can keep charging for the same content. But, if you have an Android Mini Computer, even though it has no Edge/3G/4G data connection, it's a mobile device. So Hulu will not stream to it.

Note that "Windows laptop" is meant to set the context, and that the post you responded to implies a new-ish machine, by saying that it's good for content like "Hulu, Netlix, etc". In this case, "computer" should clearly be read as "x86 PC". Many content providers assume that anything running Android is a smartphone, or possibly a tablet, rather than a form-factor closer in design and input capability to the kinds of machines that usually carry an x86.

Why is that?... I don't understand where this arbitrary distinction of "that's not a computer" comes from.

Yes, technically they are all computers. Maybe it would be better to find a new set of terms to describe the difference between a handheld device and a traditional PC.

But the distinction is important because (generally speaking) people use these types of devices differently, and that has a big impact on user interface, what capabilities are important to the typical user, and what to optimize the user experience for. All the Slashdotters who show up to every dicussion on Windows 8 or OS X bemoaning "they're

Actually, this is more valuable than a full fledged PC Windows laptop. Because it supports a SIM card

So does the USB mobile broadband dongle from any carrier that isn't Verizon or Sprint or a Sprint MVNO. The problem here is that one has to pay hundreds of dollars a year to use that SIM card unless applications are designed for "offline first", anticipating that a user's Internet connection will be intermittent. I imagine that Windows applications are more likely to support offline use than Android applications, especially because Android was first sold on phones.

So does the USB mobile broadband dongle from any carrier that isn't Verizon or Sprint or a Sprint MVNO.

See? When you try to connect a SIM card to a regular PC; your vendor thinks he can impose arbitrary restrictions on how it's used. The Android OS provides all the useful things that a Windows OS does - a useful, quick browser; full fledged Office, low power consuming ARM support, support for mobile-related peripherals right in the OS etc. In addition you can just plug in any SIM card like on a mobile phon

When you try to connect a SIM card to a regular PC; your vendor thinks he can impose arbitrary restrictions on how it's used.

I don't see a single way Windows differs from Android in this respect. You can't plug a SIM into a Windows PC with a Sprint mobile broadband adapter for the same reason that you can't plug a SIM into an Android phone sold by Sprint. A device that takes a SIM won't work on Verizon or Sprint or a Sprint MVNO either because the U.S. CDMA2000 carriers have chosen to program the subscriber identity directly into the mobile equipment rather than using a CSIM. This is true no matter whether a device runs Windows,

This is one of the annoying things about Android (and iOS) on a tablet.

I know there are some third party windowing solutions, and Samsung have their own (or licensed one) for side-by-side apps.

But yeah, for apps that are happy running on a thin phone screen, why can't they run on the side on a tablet whilst another (or two more) are also running on the screen? In a way, Windows 8 supports this in the Metro view, because apps have to support a narrow view as well as a wide view (I don't know the specifics).

Many Samsung devices have split window support. Samsung devices arguably have a better implementation than Windows RT since each window can be resized by an arbitrary amount, rather than the fixed values available in Modern ("Metro") style Windows apps. I'll be overjoyed when I can use that technology on non-Samsung Android devices, but it's definitely useful on my phone.

For one thing, entry-level devices sold by Sprint MVNOs are less likely to support 4G, and devices that don't support 4G still store the subscriber identity on the device. For another, I was under the impression that CDMA2000+LTE devices sold by Verizon, Sprint, and Sprint MVNOs were carrier locked not to accept a SIM from a GSM+UMTS+LTE carrier. And finally, can you swap CDMA2000 subscriber identities by swapping SIMs in a CDMA2000+LTE phone, or is only the LTE subscriber identity stored on the SIM and the

I imagine that Windows applications are more likely to support offline use than Android applications, especially because Android was first sold on phones.

My Android phone supports offline use, probably because I pay my carrier a flat rate for unlimited everything and my using it offline or on wifi saves them money. My guess is other carriers disable the ability so they can run your bill up higher.

The OS does. The applications aren't quite as likely to. For example, Chrome for Android doesn't appear to register itself as a handler for HTML file open intents, which means that (unlike Firefox for Android) it doesn't appear in the "Open With" dialog box. And unlike Firefox for desktop Linux and Chromium for desktop Linux, Chrome for Android likes to purge pages associated with tabs that aren't in view, triggering a reload when I switch back to that tab. If I open a tab while online, go offline, and swit

Who needs a camera on a tablet? Ok maybe for video chat if you're into that, in which case vga is probably just fine. Problem with putting a better cqamera on them is people use them inappropriately. Last time I went skiing I had to keep avoiding Chinese people trying to ski whilst holding up a full sized iPad, complete with large case hanging off it, to take pictures of their kids.

Hmm, headline reads more like, "Lenovo just goosed M$, we want a 50% discount on current prices across the board or else". It seems like other manufacturers are also joining the action. So will M$ dig deep or is this the light at the end of the tunnel for M$, that great big huge Android freight train.

I'm failing to see how this - bringing Android's touch-first interface to a mouse+keyboard interface - is any better than Microsoft's approach with throwing (a bastardization of) Metro into Windows. I mean, I already find the Android somewhat funky on a phone (compared to iOS and WP) and awkward on a tablet (compared to iOS). The UI simply doesn't seem to scale well, and I have yet to see a package that significantly improves it.

The interface is a minor issue; easily solved by adding a No-Touch app to the default Android OS. The fact that SIM cards, camera etc are built-in and supported by the OS makes so many exciting applications and use-cases possible.

Say, you have a list of clients in a CRM software whom you need to talk to; and record the conversations back into the CRM itself.With an Android laptop; you can just click on the number; and get options to

High-end games, of course, but almost all big PC games are first console design, with port to PC. Microsoft was instrumental in this shift, succeeding in co-development via Direct X for PC and X-Box, thinking the console would take over as game/surf/TV machine. cThere are no games tying people to the PC anymore.

almost all big PC games are first console design, with port to PC. [...] There are no games tying people to the PC anymore.

What you say is true of big games from big companies, not so much of small games from developers that haven't yet found a console publisher. Those are more likely to be released on OS X, desktop Linux, Android, or iOS before one of the major consoles.

That's just your opinion. Games like League of Legends are mapping the way gaming is heading with a truly world class competitive scene, paid players and more. The population of that game alone is huge. There's tones of MMORPG that are very popular on PC and not available on other platforms.The big commercial titles like COD and BF are now available on console but even those titles still have a huge following on PC.

And what plans does Android have to provide a client server environment for companies? There

Funny how MS putting a touchscreen OS on a PC/Laptop was the dumbest thing ever

Yes it was. The PC/laptop never traditionally supported things like SIM card, telephony software or even camera software out-of-the-box. The reason MS forced touch on PCs is to try and spur development of touch based and Windows-Store style apps for the enterprise. Without these peripherals above; the touch interface is a huge waste.

With an open source Android OS that supports every thing that the traditional PC does and much m

I really don't understand what you're going on about. There are plenty of laptops available already that allow you to put in a SIM card. Telephony software? There's plenty of solutions already available. And cameras have been integrated into laptops long before Android was released. What on earth can Android support that a traditional PC (Windows or Linux) can't?

What on earth can Android support that a traditional PC (Windows or Linux) can't?

AFAIK a touchscreen, at least on Windows. They've had (if I remember the name correctly) MegaGame machines in bars for over a decade that were touch-only and ran Liinux, as it was easy to tell when one was booted (I don't remember what distro, probably Red Hat). I haven't heard of any version of Windows before W8 that would.

There have been touchscreens around for 15+ years. Microsoft ships a version of Windows called Embedded Windows, and as far back as Win98 (maybe further, that was my first experience with it) you could create a Kiosk deployment of Windows 98 with an ELO touchscreen.

Potential big difference I see: With Windows 8, you're mostly stuck with the touchscreen interface outside of a few plugins that can hack it into something not completely unusable on desktop. On the other hand, the open source nature of Android makes it possible for OEMs to update the interface to something more like a traditional desktop. We've already multiple OEMs and third-party launchers change the basic interface for Android phones and tablets, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to make a new inte

Android is loved as a phone and tablet OS because it is open source and easy to work with.

As a desktop operating or some sort of mobile computing operating system, aside from the open source angle and the general openness, I don't see Android being any better of an alternative than Windows.

Android has quite a bit of fragmentation, has malware and exploit issues (I have some sort of pesky nuisance-ware on my Android phone, apparently from installing some free game outside the Google Play ecosystem) -- and if ends up encroaching onto the traditional desktop/laptop space --- then you are back to hardware interoperability/printer drivers/etc.

So setting aside the open nature and potentially the "cost" (i.e. Microsoft tax) --- I don't see this being an improvement over Windows.

But I would definitely welcome Microsoft's near-monopoly to start feeling the heat and would be nice to get more utility out Android apps or developing them personally.

The walled garden is bad, and having the freedom to create your own apps to install for yourself and trusted friends without going through the google app store, or even to choose some other app store to trust (e.g. Amazon's) is a great Freedom. If you choose to use that power to shoot yourself in the foot by trusting a random stranger on the internet, then don't blame anyone else for your own naivety.

Right, because Android users are forced to download malware to install on their phones, simply by virtue of having a more open operating system where you're not forced to install only apps from a walled garden...

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. Android gives plenty of warnings if you enable the ability to install downloaded applications. You do, actually, have to be some kind of complete idiot to install malware on your Android device, ignoring a clear warning, and then obtaining an APK from a source t

Google does this the best way I can imagine. The walled garden keeps malware out, but hands the user the key to the gate. The gate has a sign that tells the user it's dangerous to open the door. This means that power users who want to program their own stuff can do so without controll from Google but non-power users can have their walled garden. To bad there are people who ignore the warning and just open the gate to let something in from an unknown source.

Android does have per-app permissions. I see plenty of wallpaper apps, for instance, that require access to my contact list and other permissions they clearly do not need just to be able to show me wallpapers. The free games are the worst, let alone ones from outside Google Play. But it's not Android's fault when people don't read it.

Except you don't get to choose those permissions, you can only install or not install. If you want Fluffy Kitty Screen Saver and it demands access to contact lists and to be able to send SMS messages, you can't say 'let it install but don't let it do those things.'

If Google cared about user security, they'd let you pick and choose which permissions you allowed.

Android does do sandboxing and the "nuisanceware" the OP talks about could just be uninstalled.

There have been one or two exploits in the past that allowed apps to make themselves difficult to uninstall. They were bugs that got fixed. Android doesn't have anywhere near the same level of risk as Windows does when it comes to malware.

As for your comment about the "Microsoft Tax", my belief is that for a company to be viable for a business or end user, it must support its products. MS has done that (some will argue but they speak from their wind hole). If I have an issue with their software I can actually call someone and get up and running quickly or at the least get a ticket to devs put in. On the open source side I have to post in a forum and HOPE someone helps me. That isn't viable for

Buy the Google branded products. That's precisely why I bought a Nexus 7, so I didn't have to worry about vendors taking forever to roll out updates.

has malware and exploit issues (I have some sort of pesky nuisance-ware on my Android phone, apparently from installing some free game outside the Google Play ecosystem)

So, you turned off the thing which prevents you from side loading, side loaded something, and have problems with it? You can do the exact same thing in Windows. But it was you who took responsibility for that and did it. Google just provided the option to shoot yourself in the foot.

and if ends up encroaching onto the traditional desktop/laptop space --- then you are back to hardware interoperability/printer drivers/etc

Which is hardly unique to Android. But I set up cloud printing for my mother in law in about 10 minutes, and she can happily print from her tablet through to her PC.

Maybe what we need are better standards for those devices so it's not the user's problem to sort out interoperability.

Windows has traditionally lagged behind other OSes feature-wise. Linux supported multiple monitors years before Windows did, and my kubuntu box has features my W7 notebook sorely lacks (like not having to reboot the goddamned thing every month).

Not being Windows is a benefit because Windows is just not a very good OS. It never had to be, thanks to their monopoly. Look how much better telephony got after AT&T was broken up.

As to "fragmentation" I think a better word is CHOICE. Hate Gnome? Use KDE or other desktop. Fragmentation is a non-issue cooked up by worried MS marketers.

But I set up cloud printing for my mother in law in about 10 minutes, and she can happily print from her tablet through to her PC.

Indeed, "interoperability" is yet another lie cooked up by MS marketing. The truth is it's Windows that not only lacks interoperability but designs its lack into its products. Hell, try opening a Word 2007 document in Word 98; MS isn't even interoperable with itself.

Driver support is a dead issue, Linux hasn't had many driver problems in years, not that I've seen anyway. The only devices that won't work with Linux are those designed to be windows-only (e.g., winmodems).

I think you responded to a shill, or to someone who's never used anything but Windows.

How much is Ballmer paying you, shill? Guess what happened ten years ago when they upgraded Office 98 to Office 03 where I work? None of my fucking Access programs would work! I had to rewrite every damned one. That never happened in any other language (when talking about Access I use that term very loosely) I've used in the last 30 years.

I repeat, Microsoft isn't even compatible with itself. They go out of their way to try (usually in vain) to make Samba not work, or a

| has malware and exploit issues (I have some sort of pesky nuisance-ware on my Android phone, apparently from installing some free game outside the Google Play ecosystem)

"So, you turned off the thing which prevents you from side loading, side loaded something, and have problems with it? You can do the exact same thing in Windows. But it was you who took responsibility for that and did it. Google just provided the option to shoot yourself in the foot."

Seriously? If need separate laptop just to handle printing then why even bother buying this Android "laptop" from Lenovo? Oh, and don't forget that you are sending all your documents to google and whoever google chooses to share them with.

So setting aside the open nature and potentially the "cost" (i.e. Microsoft tax) --- I don't see this being an improvement over Windows.

Fragmentation isn't a disadvantage when you're expanding. Android now works with lots of different screen sizes, resolutions, chipsets etc. That just means you can successfully port it to any kind of device.

BTW, we're talking ARM here, not x86. Competitors to Android would be Windows RT and iOS, not the full-fledged Windows we all know and hate with varying degrees of intensity. That means Android is significantly more open than the competition. There's a tremendous gap in performance, but an even bigger on

I couldn't give less of a shit what they do with consumer-targeted products that are used entirely or mostly for dicking around. I mean, Android is cute, but some of us actually need our computers to work.

What I want is for them to reverse the spread of this toxic notion in the ThinkPad lineup. See: crippled, flexing keyboards and buttonless trackpoints/pads that are pretty but feel and work like shit, wide screens that are fine for movies but shit for actually working, removal of status lights that gave useful information at a glance replaced by various indicators scattered among hardware and software that make usability a load of fragmented shit, poor construction materials that make them feel and behave like cheap shit...

In case it wasn't clear, the point I'm getting at is that the last several generations of ThinkPad have increasingly been... shit.

| I couldn't give less of a shit what they do with consumer-targeted products that are used entirely or mostly for dicking around. I mean, Android is cute, but some of
| us actually need our computers to work.

The PC back in the day was accused of being "consumer-targeted" and not a real machine for businesses to get work done. Same with the internet.

I moved away from ThinkPads after several generations for the same reason. Recent high end Latitudes (keyboard) and EliteBooks (everything else) outshine current ThinkPads for me, and I indeed moved to an EliteBook.

Why, oh why, can't anyone get the pointing stick/buttons right, though? Lenovo had it nailed right through the T61. All they had to do was not dick with it.

Please point me to a new Dell or HP model with a proper 7-row keyboard (non-chiclet, INS/DEL/HOM/END/PGU/PGD 3x2 cluster in top right, F key groupings of 4, F keys that are actually goddamm F keys and not this secondary function bullshit)

Agreed. I have a Z61t that is seriously starting to show its age. But the last ThinkPad I will seriously consider buying is the T420, which is no longer made. The current xx30 models (T430, X230, etc.) gratuitously changed the keyboard.

Seriously, Lenovo? You fscked with the ThinkPad keyboard?? The keyboard by which all other laptop keyboards were judged for well over ten years? You just threw that away?

I've been idly looking at "white box" laptops as a possible upgrade avenue, but I have no idea w

I'm lucky enough to have a T420. It's a glorious machine. There's enough right with it that even given the changed keyboard I'd want to at least try out the T430 as a replacement before writing it off.

I have an Asus Transformer TF300 [asus.com]. I bought it about six months ago. It was on sale with the keyboard for about $350. It has a 10.1 inch HD touchscreen, and a keyboard with 'signature Android buttons for "home screen", "previous"'. (No Apps Screen button, but nothing's perfect.) Its screen doesn't swivel, but it does detach. It also has a camera, a microSD card slot and an HDMI port like the Lenovo, plus a USB port on the keyboard.

Make it 13 and we might have a winner, depending on price. 10 is still a netbook, and we see how well that market did.

...till Microsoft and Intel crippled its specifications, while raising its price over traditional laptops, very well. Given that this is about removing Intel/Microsoft and their 70% Gross Margins, and without any stupid hardware limitations. It looks to repeat itself. With the massive growth of Chromebooks...No1 selling laptop on Amazon...fastest (and only) growing PC market...blah blah blah I would argue it already is.

For the past few years it has become increasingly apparent that PC makers are longing for the day that they can finally wash their hands of Microsoft. The Linux netbooks, Instant on features like Splashtop OS and WebOS, Android laptops, etc.; They wouldn't be experimenting with all of these if they didn't find the idea of ditching Windows extremely appealing. And why wouldn't they? Not only have they been subject to the so-called "Microsoft Tax" for decades now, but their bottom line is tied directly to Microsoft's successes and failures. Vista and Windows 8, anyone?

I was a Google advocate and an Android fanatic a couple years ago, but it seems to me that they have shifted focus to emulating Apple, eliminating functionality, and, worryingly, ignoring bug reports.

Consider:

- Latest maps update removes swathes of important functionality, is significantly less useful, and looks "better" than the previous version
- As of Android 4.3, the base OS still does not support correct mouse-driven cut and paste, or right-click to open context menu
- Alt-tab does not function corre

Frankly I don't quite understand the appeal of the chrome notebook and I've played with a few. Sure, it's different, but so are a hundred different flavors of Linux. Now an Android laptop is something that I think makes a lot of sense as there is an incredible marketplace already in existence for their software.

It would be very easy to transition from an Android phone to an Android laptop for the large number of people that already have Android phones. When you consider the jarring UI change that is being f