I also need to know them bloody well, outside of upgrading my Greek. How is the best and quickest way of going about this? If it comes down to it I'll resort to brute force memorisation, however this doesn't seem good because I know I'll have to be looking at texts.

I'm not a complete noob however, I know and can use the first three declinations (memorised the 4th et 5th but not well since I've not used them) and know the first three conjugations very well in present, future and imperfect. I know sum and possum and some of volo too, no idea as to comparision adjectives even are though!

I have Wheelocks, lingua latina and everything on this site obviously as resources. Can it be done? any recommendations? servatabisne me?

Writing paradigms over and over again is what did it for me, but it's not the funnest thing in the world.

Conjugation in Latin, though, is nice because you can treat it systematically by decomposing the forms to make them more manageable. The endings for example are the same throughout, except remembering where the first person singular active is -o and when it's -m. I worked out a system once and found it very helpful.

Are you familiar with the various "tricks" like the ablative and dative plural are always the same, you form the imperfect (resp. pluperfect) subjunctive by adding the appropriate endings to the present (resp. perfect) infinitive, and so on? Those are really helpful too.

I can really only recommend one thing: practice, practice, practice. Drill if you have to, otherwise learn through application. But work at it, at least 1/2 hour a day if possible. There is no way to get out of this in language learning.

For me what really helped was learning to recognize the forms out of sequence. When I originally learned the demonstratives, we recited them horizontally, which has a nice rhythm, but it makes it difficult to connect with everything else, which we learned vertically. Until I knew the various forms individually (apart from the paradigm) I wasn't really comfortable with them.

I don't know if you've tried memorizing sentences for some of the various forms -- this is probably more useful for nouns than for verbs. If you choose a sentence where the case is obvious from the meaning, it may help you actually recognize it in context. Plus, if you have a good grasp of the first three declensions, you can use them to reinforce the new material by linking a demonstrative with a 1st declension noun, or a 1st/2nd declension adjective with a fourth declension noun.

Also: dice. Cover up the dots with sticky labels and write one case or person or tense on each side. This is a great way to randomize the forms you need to produce (you could also use shuffled notecards or a flashcard program that automatically randomizes things, but I've found dice the easiest).

modus.irrealis wrote:Writing paradigms over and over again is what did it for me, but it's not the funnest thing in the world.

Conjugation in Latin, though, is nice because you can treat it systematically by decomposing the forms to make them more manageable. The endings for example are the same throughout, except remembering where the first person singular active is -o and when it's -m. I worked out a system once and found it very helpful.

Are you familiar with the various "tricks" like the ablative and dative plural are always the same, you form the imperfect (resp. pluperfect) subjunctive by adding the appropriate endings to the present (resp. perfect) infinitive, and so on? Those are really helpful too.

No I'm quite unaware of most tricks, with regards to memorising the noun cases though I tend to see them in terms of variation, i.e accusative singular tends to end in M, plural dat and alb are the same, genitive plural has this "rum" sound and so on and so forth.

I've definitely got the nouns down I would say, I remembered the declensions (the first three) quite well from the last time I tried Latin and, shockingly, they stuck rather well, adding the 4th and 5th more solidly won't pose much of a problem I don't think.

Not sure about the verbs, god so much to learn there.

I think I need to place it in context, which means reading more too: I have trouble with little things like remembering wtf apud means, or quare etc, you know the little words that make a sentence work? It depends though, a few days ago I sat down and banged out a story in Latin about a dog and a troll, it wasn't a masterwork or anything but it was grammatically fine etc, but when I try and look at forms in isolation I get so lost. :(

spiphany wrote:I can really only recommend one thing: practice, practice, practice. Drill if you have to, otherwise learn through application. But work at it, at least 1/2 hour a day if possible. There is no way to get out of this in language learning.

For me what really helped was learning to recognize the forms out of sequence. When I originally learned the demonstratives, we recited them horizontally, which has a nice rhythm, but it makes it difficult to connect with everything else, which we learned vertically. Until I knew the various forms individually (apart from the paradigm) I wasn't really comfortable with them.

I don't know if you've tried memorizing sentences for some of the various forms -- this is probably more useful for nouns than for verbs. If you choose a sentence where the case is obvious from the meaning, it may help you actually recognize it in context. Plus, if you have a good grasp of the first three declensions, you can use them to reinforce the new material by linking a demonstrative with a 1st declension noun, or a 1st/2nd declension adjective with a fourth declension noun.

Also: dice. Cover up the dots with sticky labels and write one case or person or tense on each side. This is a great way to randomize the forms you need to produce (you could also use shuffled notecards or a flashcard program that automatically randomizes things, but I've found dice the easiest).

This seems like an interesting thing to do, in general, where would I go about getting material from? any recommendations for the noob?

I wrote most paradigms in the back of Wheelock 100 times. Some I only wrote 50 times, because they were so similar.

Then I input all of the paradigms I had learned into Anki (A free, Spaced Repitition Flashcard Program). Now I only have to review my Anki deck to maintain my paradigms.

If you would like my Anki deck that has the majority of the paradigms at the back of Wheelock, I'd be glad to share it with you. You could skip the write 100x, and just Cram (a setting in Anki) the paradigms. Then after you felt you had Crammed enough, you could switch over to the basic Spaced Repitition in Anki.

D'Ooge's Latin Grammar for beginners has some simple conversation questions and dialogues along with his discussions of the declensions and conjugations. These can be used to practice the forms in context. I plan to use them that way myself, as well as use the above games.

You mentioned you use Wheelock. Another way to practice the forms in context is to do the Latin to English sentences in the Optional Self-Tutorial exercises section, check them with the key, and then try translating the English sentences back to Latin. I have started doing this recently ( I am reviewing the first 8 chapters, which is all I've studied so far) and it helps me with the forms a lot. I have his 4th edition I bought back in the 1970's. Haven't seen the newer editions but probably they have the same section of exercises.

KramerKram wrote:What I did was modify the Dowling Method with modern technology.

I wrote most paradigms in the back of Wheelock 100 times. Some I only wrote 50 times, because they were so similar.

Then I input all of the paradigms I had learned into Anki (A free, Spaced Repitition Flashcard Program). Now I only have to review my Anki deck to maintain my paradigms.

If you would like my Anki deck that has the majority of the paradigms at the back of Wheelock, I'd be glad to share it with you. You could skip the write 100x, and just Cram (a setting in Anki) the paradigms. Then after you felt you had Crammed enough, you could switch over to the basic Spaced Repitition in Anki.

That's what I did.

Here's a screenshot:

Tibi gratis, it would be most helpful if you could send me the link to your anki deck.

Tricks and games and the like are all very well, but at the end of the day, nothing beats rote memorisation. It may be tedious, but if you spend at least some time every day, then there should be absolutely no problem remembering what you need to remember. I'd advise that you also write the various forms in a small notebook. That way when you're on the bus, out walking, at the gym etc you can go over what you've memorised, and check it quickly and easily. By all means use the games, flashcards, and especially the exercises and SA at the end of each chapter in Wheelock, but unless you've put the time into learning the forms by heart, you'll only get frustrated and disiluusioned.

You might like to take a look at Bradley Arnold's Latin Prose Composition. It goes through all the most important aspects of syntax and stresses the parts that differ most from English. Being concious of the things that differ most from English is one of the most important parts, for the instincts need to be trained to avoid the English difference and fasten themselves to the Latin one. Even if you are not interested in composing Latin, the book is surpassingly helpful with aspects of syntax.

Essorant wrote:You might like to take a look at Bradley Arnold's Latin Prose Composition. It goes through all the most important aspects of syntax and stresses the parts that differ most from English. Being concious of the things that differ most from English is one of the most important parts, for the instincts need to be trained to avoid the English difference and fasten themselves to the Latin one. Even if you are not interested in composing Latin, the book is surpassingly helpful with aspects of syntax.

Cheers,

I was considering a prose composition book, but figured I don't yet have a strong enough grasp of vocabulary, on the other hand it could be fun, it may help more than Wheelock's notes or reading through the syntax section of Bennets, I need to do the same for Greek afterwards. Time is running out.