The Cabal wrote:Long John: Russia, yar. I'M OFF!Long John Silver has left the chatMoriarty: We will need to get a more precise location to you, and I am not sure how to approach this yet.Oh, bloody hell.Mr. Silver?

*falls over laughing*

But soft! What rock through yonder window breaks? It is a brick! And Juliet is out cold!Man, I'm really glad R&J got refic'd before I added this signature.

The Conflict Ball is egregious. We had the right to doubt them from the beginning, because they were the villains known for their manipulations, but I have no idea why they'd think a random bunch of people on the internet with a couple of actually gambitting planners would all try to manipulate Erik.

Poor Communication Kills.

Technical note: I couldn't get a precise description of the steganographic algorithm yet, but LSB is Least Significant Bit (the message is encoded in the last bit of color values). I have no idea what that has to do with binary opposites and an open mind.

I have attempted to suppress my inner hyperspace future gardener crying out against all the injustice I am committing.

Dryunya wrote:3. The Conflict Ball is egregious. We had the right to doubt them from the beginning, because they were the villains known for their manipulations, but I have no idea why they'd think a random bunch of people on the internet with a couple of actually gambitting planners would all try to manipulate Erik.

Yeah, I note Morgan was showing her post-Morte d'Arthur attitude towards her brother in the "what I really want" line there, which brings me back to my original viewpoint that the Cabal hadn't changed that much.

'Oberon' wrote:You say they would let us help write our own stories. They say this would help us fulfill our desires. Would they help me kill my brother? This is what I desire.

Well, except for Don Juan, although being an 11th Hour Convert is actually an on-again off-again part of his canon, and Erik, who, as I said, was probably the most sympathetic of the Cabal to begin with.

But soft! What rock through yonder window breaks? It is a brick! And Juliet is out cold!Man, I'm really glad R&J got refic'd before I added this signature.

Hell, I forgot about that. So my idea to invite them for a Minecraft chat did have some value! Pity it didn't happen. Though I believe that somebody would probably beat the crap out of them just to be able to say "I totally kicked Moriarty's ass in Minecraft".

I have attempted to suppress my inner hyperspace future gardener crying out against all the injustice I am committing.

Dryunya wrote:Hell, I forgot about that. So my idea to invite them for a Minecraft chat did have some value! Pity it didn't happen. Though I believe that somebody would probably beat the crap out of them just to be able to say "I totally kicked Moriarty's ass in Minecraft".

Erik plays TF2, too. I think. Because he seems to know who Saxton Hale is.

Now for my stream-of-consciousness thoughts that I jotted down in much the same way that I take notes while reading our own chatlogs:

HA I KNEW Erik's letter was intended to manipulate us emotionally!

...AND looked like my plan to divide them worked better than it seemed to me... (I don't know about you, Dryu, but manipulating them was one of my goals there, so can't fault Morgan for picking up on that.

And the whole "they started it"? YOU THREATENED JOE. We didn't care about you until then, Moriarty!

...Okay, so I was wrong about Silver. I admit it; clearly he's changed. Also, I was totally RIGHT about him looking for Dryu!

So basically, for me personally, this humanized Erik a lot, and Juan somewhat, at the expense of convincing me much more than I had been before that Moriarty and Morgan are totally totally evil and manipulating.

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Thank you Enlil! I would never have thought to do any of those things, or known how to do them if I'd thought of it. Have a lime:

Now, to the contents:

Steinitz wrote:Would they help me kill that bumbling Londoner? They have taken a shine to him. Any story which sends me back to that world is likely to leave me at his mercy.

I feel so, so much better about my refic for him now. I assumed he'd want to kill Holmes, and I was correct in that assumption.

Adam wrote:And you are not giving me answers. You say these people are dangerous, but you’re the only ones who seem dangerous here.

Adam stood up to the Cabal about us in the way we should have stood up to Mr. Administrator about the Cabal. He's a better man than any of us. His reaction to them humbles me.

Also, Erik got distracted by Minecraft just like many of us, they thought we were behind Deanna at the same time we thought they were behind her, and Long John Silver was actually looking for Dryu but couldn't find him because he was rash and didn't think things through. Even though Dryu would have jumped at the opportunity to do some field work. That was a tragic missed connection.

And, S_o_S, this is from Adam's blog:

Adam wrote:I’m done with the Phantom, for good. I had a little chat with him and his accomplices many days ago. Mad, the lot of them, and madder still for trying to involve me in their petty struggles. I will have no more dealings with any of them, and the Devil take them if they ever try to contact me again.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after.

Erik is awesome. Adam is even more awesome.LJS is hilarious. Long Live Minecraft!And I quite like Morgan for contrast. I do believe she changed quite a lot from the logs to the point where she would actually talk to us and, you know, face Cthulhu.

narrativedilettante wrote:... Long John Silver was actually looking for Dryu but couldn't find him because he was rash and didn't think things through. Even though Dryu would have jumped at the opportunity to do some field work. That was a tragic missed connection.

Actually, I was thinking about this, and it makes sense that he didn't wait for more information. Had he still been in his story, he would have found Dryu without it. He's a character from a boy's adventure book, and that's how life works in those books.

But soft! What rock through yonder window breaks? It is a brick! And Juliet is out cold!Man, I'm really glad R&J got refic'd before I added this signature.

Well, that was useful to know. Pretty much all the things in the chat have been covered in the other comments. It seems Erik was the one that tried to most to get on out good side. And, well, Qara says Morgan was evil. I think she gradually warmed up to us, so yeah, in the end I think the only bad guy in the Cabal was Moriarty.

Too bad they had to die... Kind of makes me feel like a jerk.

Why should we do the right thing?-Well... because it's the right thing to do, there's no other good reason.

Am I a bad guy trying to be good, or a good guy trying to convince himself that he's not the bad guy?

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:HA I KNEW Erik's letter was intended to manipulate us emotionally!

I don't remember the chats precisely already, but I had the impression that manipulating our emotions was an excuse for the other Cabal members. His decision to contact us wasn't exactly well-received.Honestly, considering that it was entirely possible to negotiate while remaining anonymous, I have no idea why they didn't do that. While we hated their guts (at this point their only acts we'd seen were threatening Joe and hacking his site), no one of us refused the communications outright (ok, that's exactly what I did given the opportunity, but at that point I really had enough). The smartest villains should really know better.

narrativedilettante wrote:they thought we were behind Deanna at the same time we thought they were behind her

That actually makes no sense either, if you think about it. Deanna's connection to TV Tropes only got known after a fair portion of her plan was revealed. Until then, she was just a random creepy (and later, outright malicious) girl. Blaming us for her actions was, in the very least, irrational, especially given our explicit backlash.

I have attempted to suppress my inner hyperspace future gardener crying out against all the injustice I am committing.

narrativedilettante wrote:they thought we were behind Deanna at the same time we thought they were behind her

That actually makes no sense either, if you think about it. Deanna's connection to TV Tropes only got known after a fair portion of her plan was revealed. Until then, she was just a random creepy (and later, outright malicious) girl. Blaming us for her actions was, in the very least, irrational, especially given our explicit backlash.

I didn't think they assumed that Deanna was our creation because of her connection to TV Tropes. I think it's just because they were being ridiculously paranoid, assuming that we are monsters who want nothing more than to destroy them and/or return them to their worlds, and they used every action, statement, and unrelated events to use as proof as to how monstrous we are. (Sound familiar?)

Simply put, it was easier to believe that we created Deanna as a character to kill someone of our own so we could use her as an excuse to further hate the Cabal, or something like that. No, it's not rational. But I think that's the point. It sounds like they were trying to pull a Not So Different on us.

If everyone would just agree with me, there would never be any problems.

Why am I not surprised people read these chats and feel even more justified for being dicks to the cabal than before. At this point I don't feel it'll do me any good to continue to rant my opinion on matters; all I have to say is that if Morgan and the others did manage to survive somehow (and I do hope they did), I'm glad they did and they have definitely earned the right to live in our world. With that, I think we've pretty much got the complete picture of what happened during all of this, nice work everyone.

If you ever need to ask the questions "Am I needed? Should I help them?" The answer is always yes. Always.

Adell wrote:Why am I not surprised people read these chats and feel even more justified for being dicks to the cabal than before.

Actually, I feel like a jerk >.> But that's enough derailing.Well, whatever happened to the bodies, we can't be exactly sure what is, so if by some strange event they managed to survive, then Hurrah! They deserve it, they helped save reality after all...

Last edited by Blurred_9L on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Why should we do the right thing?-Well... because it's the right thing to do, there's no other good reason.

Am I a bad guy trying to be good, or a good guy trying to convince himself that he's not the bad guy?

Adell wrote:Why am I not surprised people read these chats and feel even more justified for being dicks to the cabal than before. At this point I don't feel it'll do me any good to continue to rant my opinion on matters; all I have to say is that if Morgan and the others did manage to survive somehow (and I do hope they did), I'm glad they did and they have definitely earned the right to live in our world. With that, I think we've pretty much got the complete picture of what happened during all of this, nice work everyone.

Well if you won't rant, can I? Just a tiny lil' bit?

Honestly, I think those chats make them so more relatable. I mean they weren't perfect but we can hardly all say we hold the award for being completely moral and upstanding now, can we? It might seem irrational to blame us for Deanna as we did them but hey, as Joe pointed out, panic and fear make people do really, really stupid things. They were people, just like any of us, and I'd hate to be defined purely by my mistakes. Their origins aside (and really it doesn't MATTER to me whether or not they were previously controlled by their narratives or not: some people think they were, others think that's an excuse but I reckon it doesn't matter what they WERE, it matters what they BECAME. I think I have to believe that who they became HERE in the real world was clearly something quite different to who they were before). The more I think about it, the more I wish we had done things differently...

I mean ultimately I think we were kinda stuck choice wise because there was always the world-at-stake realistic risk. That threat was ALWAYS going to sway my opinion. I was never a big fan of their having to go back, even though their methods at the start were,,, kind of dumb, and feel like a serious dick for supporting it so strongly (especially now considering... well were they really a threat in the first place? Could we afford to take that risK?) I guess a lot of us are never going to agree on this, but we can agree on one thing: this was worth playing.

With any luck you're out there somewhere living their lives... I'd like to think it ended happily for everyone. I think everyone deserves a second chance.

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.

Adell wrote:Why am I not surprised people read these chats and feel even more justified for being dicks to the cabal than before. At this point I don't feel it'll do me any good to continue to rant my opinion on matters; all I have to say is that if Morgan and the others did manage to survive somehow (and I do hope they did), I'm glad they did and they have definitely earned the right to live in our world. With that, I think we've pretty much got the complete picture of what happened during all of this, nice work everyone.

Wow, Adell. I don't know about the others, but all I said was that they hadn't changed much at that time. Personally, I hope they lived, too. Also, that there is a sequel, and they show up in it as well.

But soft! What rock through yonder window breaks? It is a brick! And Juliet is out cold!Man, I'm really glad R&J got refic'd before I added this signature.

Adell wrote:Why am I not surprised people read these chats and feel even more justified for being dicks to the cabal than before. At this point I don't feel it'll do me any good to continue to rant my opinion on matters; all I have to say is that if Morgan and the others did manage to survive somehow (and I do hope they did), I'm glad they did and they have definitely earned the right to live in our world. With that, I think we've pretty much got the complete picture of what happened during all of this, nice work everyone.

Wow, Adell. I don't know about the others, but all I said was that they hadn't changed much at that time. Personally, I hope they lived, too. Also, that there is a sequel, and they show up in it as well.

Assuming they do show up, and as you I hope for it, it will be further proof that fictionals CAN exist in this reality without destabailising it, at least to an extent, which means whatever the sequel plans are... well, maybe the choices we have to make won't be quite so difficult as they were this time. I don't know. I hope so. It was tough, feeling like we were being handed these rgeat big moral choices and consequences (choices which, realistically, should've been made by ANYBODY but a bunch of guys on an internet forum, like by soembody with legal degrees or something for example) upon which the world's fate rested.

I think it was really hard to figure out the right thing to do in this situation, and everyone is going to have different opinions on it, from now until the end of days. The fact of the matter is they helped save the world, and they definitely saved Adell. That's what mattered in the end.

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.

Pshhhhhhhhhh Scarab. If we get confirmation that they can exist here without destabilizing it, and then there's a sequel, I guarantee you that won't make the moral choices easier; they'll just get more complex, and challenging about a different point. Have you forgotten whom we're dealing with here?

Also, as to feeling justified about disliking the Cabal, well... at this point, all I can really say is "with elephants". I do feel that the way they present themselves in these chats does little to make me feel I was wrong to distrust them as I did, with the possible exception of Erik. However, that's not relevant anymore; Morgan, Erik, and Juan proved themselves by helping Adell when it matters, so death (which Equals Redemption) or not, I'm willing to waive my earlier hard feelings. (the things I do for my friends' lives!)

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Scarab wrote:Assuming they do show up, and as you I hope for it, it will be further proof that fictionals CAN exist in this reality without destabailising it, at least to an extent, which means whatever the sequel plans are... well, maybe the choices we have to make won't be quite so difficult as they were this time. I don't know. I hope so. It was tough, feeling like we were being handed these rgeat big moral choices and consequences (choices which, realistically, should've been made by ANYBODY but a bunch of guys on an internet forum, like by soembody with legal degrees or something for example) upon which the world's fate rested.

1. For me, the moral choices would get HARDER, because I want to do whatever Mr. Administrator tells me to do, but if he's telling me to do something like forcible refictionalization, and I KNOW that there's no danger in refusing to do as he asks, then I'll be faced with disobeying him because I know it's the right thing to do. In this game, I could do as he asked and even though I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do, I believed it might be.

2. People with legal degrees? Lawyers are known as some of the most amoral and self-serving people on the planet. I wouldn't want them making these decisions any more than I'd want us making them.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after.

narrativedilettante wrote:1. For me, the moral choices would get HARDER, because I want to do whatever Mr. Administrator tells me to do, but if he's telling me to do something like forcible refictionalization, and I KNOW that there's no danger in refusing to do as he asks, then I'll be faced with disobeying him because I know it's the right thing to do. In this game, I could do as he asked and even though I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do, I believed it might be.

2. People with legal degrees? Lawyers are known as some of the most amoral and self-serving people on the planet. I wouldn't want them making these decisions any more than I'd want us making them.

1. For me that WOULD be easier. I would find it much more easy to do the right thing if I felt more secure in it BEING the right thing, and I wouldn't have the rationalisation ofg the threat to the unvierse. Essentially, though you have a point - I wonder if this game wouldn't have been MUCH more complicated/confusing if we knew for sure the world WEREN'T at risk? Because that really was the swinging point, for me and many others, regarding whether or not to trust the Cabal (and I still tried to be civil in most cases either way).

2. I think that's a bit of a generalisation about lawyers . I'm still not sure in any other situation we'd be the best choice as a world saving force... but for this particular instance, one involving writing and narrative convention, I guess we worked out pretty well Rock on, the Ragtag Bunch of Misfits.

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.