Harold Camping’s shamelessness

Harold Camping is taking nothing back, even though his prediction of the Rapture happening on May 21 fell flat. Rather, as some of you commenters predicted, he is simply reinterpreting his prediction and holding strong to his other one, that the world will come to an end on October 21.

Radio evangelist Harold Camping said in a special broadcast Monday night on his radio program Open Forum that his predicted May 21, 2011 Rapture was “an invisible judgment day“ that he has come to understand as a spiritual, rather than physical event.

“We had all of our dates correct,” Camping insisted, clarifying that he now understands that Christ’s May 21 arrival was “a spiritual coming” ushering in the last five months before the final judgment and destruction.

In an hour and a half broadcast, Camping walked listeners through his numerological timeline, insisting that his teaching has not changed and that the world will still end on October 21, 2011.

“It wont be spiritual on October 21st,” Camping said, adding, “the world is going to be destroyed all together, but it will be very quick.”

Camping had previously pointed to October 21 as the last day on earth for all humanity.

His former assertion was that a faithful three percent would be physically pulled into heaven by God through the Rapture on May 21, to be followed by a five month period of great suffering known as the Tribulation, ending, finally, on October 21. On Monday’s broadcast, Camping speculated that perhaps a merciful God decided to spare humanity five months of “hell on earth.”

Basically he said that on May 21 God determined who he would save. Now that this has been done, it won’t do any good for anyone to repent and try to turn to Christ, so he won’t be doing any more publicity about the world coming to an end. In other words, no one can become a Christian now anyway.

Friends, a false prediction of the end of the world is the least of the false teachings Mr. Camping will have to answer for. He teaches that people shouldn’t go to church; that they cannot have assurance of their salvation; and then now adds that no one can turn to Christ.

I ask you, who else wants people to stay away from church, sows doubt, and tries to keep people from Christ?

“I ask you, who else wants people to stay away from church, sows doubt, and tries to keep people from Christ?”

Well said.

Michael Lynch

“I ask you, who else wants people to stay away from church, sows doubt, and tries to keep people from Christ?”

Well said.

larry

But is that not ALWAYS the answer so Christ can’t come ALL the way down to people and keep it in the nebulous “you’ll never nail me down”, “just make it spiritual”. The ole slippery eel theology.

larry

But is that not ALWAYS the answer so Christ can’t come ALL the way down to people and keep it in the nebulous “you’ll never nail me down”, “just make it spiritual”. The ole slippery eel theology.

SKPeterson

So, he’s saying the baby girl that was baptized this past Sunday in our congregation is outside of salvation. The man needs to be denounced, repudiated, shamed, and then most ignominiously, ignored.

SKPeterson

So, he’s saying the baby girl that was baptized this past Sunday in our congregation is outside of salvation. The man needs to be denounced, repudiated, shamed, and then most ignominiously, ignored.

Tom Hering

As I understood Camping’s statements on Monday night, it’s only those in the churches who can’t be saved in the next five months, because the churches are under the rule of Satan. Camping and Family Radio will continue to spread the “Gospel” among those outside the churches (and that’s why they won’t be returning any donations). Indeed, those outside the churches don’t even have to become Christians in order to be saved on October 21. They only need to believe the message about the Judgment, and cry out, “God have mercy on me!” That’s all a merciful God requires.

Tom Hering

As I understood Camping’s statements on Monday night, it’s only those in the churches who can’t be saved in the next five months, because the churches are under the rule of Satan. Camping and Family Radio will continue to spread the “Gospel” among those outside the churches (and that’s why they won’t be returning any donations). Indeed, those outside the churches don’t even have to become Christians in order to be saved on October 21. They only need to believe the message about the Judgment, and cry out, “God have mercy on me!” That’s all a merciful God requires.

Tom Hering

I think it’s very revealing that in 90 minutes on Monday night, Camping said a lot about the Bible, but almost nothing about Jesus Christ, or faith in Jesus Christ.

Tom Hering

I think it’s very revealing that in 90 minutes on Monday night, Camping said a lot about the Bible, but almost nothing about Jesus Christ, or faith in Jesus Christ.

SKPeterson

Tom @5 – I think that is because he believes more in the Bible as a code book, rather than the word of God and witness to the Christ. Why rely on Jesus, when you can save yourself by figuring out the hidden code? He’s abandoned faith in Christ and reduced the entire testimony of Scripture to a cheap end times calendar.

SKPeterson

Tom @5 – I think that is because he believes more in the Bible as a code book, rather than the word of God and witness to the Christ. Why rely on Jesus, when you can save yourself by figuring out the hidden code? He’s abandoned faith in Christ and reduced the entire testimony of Scripture to a cheap end times calendar.

Pete

SK @3 is all over this one – the Campster’s getting waaaay too much face time on this blog. Let’s move on to better stuff!

Pete

SK @3 is all over this one – the Campster’s getting waaaay too much face time on this blog. Let’s move on to better stuff!

Tom Hering

SK @ 6, if there’s no eternal suffering in Hell, then our problem is only partially sin, and if our problem is only partially sin, then the solution isn’t entirely the righteousness and sacrifice of Christ. Something else can get us to Heaven, too.

Pete @ 7, Camping’s beliefs are worth discussing, because others are being suckered by a damning error.

Tom Hering

SK @ 6, if there’s no eternal suffering in Hell, then our problem is only partially sin, and if our problem is only partially sin, then the solution isn’t entirely the righteousness and sacrifice of Christ. Something else can get us to Heaven, too.

Pete @ 7, Camping’s beliefs are worth discussing, because others are being suckered by a damning error.

The Jones

Belief in the prophesies predicted for end times is not a faith in a set of events. It is faith in a person who will do what he said he will do. Shame on Harold Camping for placing the hope for his future separate from the person of Christ and in events and time-lines and destruction and his own pathetic knowledge.

But as to your final question: Muhammad, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet, Sam Harris, and Joseph Smith come to mind. Tom Cruise and John Travolta also come to mind, but in a more bumbling and sympathetic sort of way.

The Jones

Belief in the prophesies predicted for end times is not a faith in a set of events. It is faith in a person who will do what he said he will do. Shame on Harold Camping for placing the hope for his future separate from the person of Christ and in events and time-lines and destruction and his own pathetic knowledge.

But as to your final question: Muhammad, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet, Sam Harris, and Joseph Smith come to mind. Tom Cruise and John Travolta also come to mind, but in a more bumbling and sympathetic sort of way.

Kirk

Coming Oct 21: THE RAPTURE 2: RAPT HARDER – This time, it’s personal!

Kirk

Coming Oct 21: THE RAPTURE 2: RAPT HARDER – This time, it’s personal!

Michael Lynch

Kirk, I have to admit, THAT was funny!

Michael Lynch

Kirk, I have to admit, THAT was funny!

http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

*groan*

http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

*groan*

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Veith said:

Friends, a false prediction of the end of the world is the least of the false teachings Mr. Camping will have to answer for. He teaches that people … cannot have assurance of their salvation.

Oh Pooooooooooorceeeeelllllllllll!

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Veith said:

Friends, a false prediction of the end of the world is the least of the false teachings Mr. Camping will have to answer for. He teaches that people … cannot have assurance of their salvation.

Oh Pooooooooooorceeeeelllllllllll!

helen

SKP The man needs to be denounced, repudiated, shamed, and then most ignominiously, ignored.

Mostly, he needs to be ignored! I’ve turned off a couple of “Lutheran” podcasts in disgust because I’ve heard more than I want to. Why do we spend money to give his ideas more “bandwidth” or whatever the phrase is now?

Genug jetzt!

helen

SKP The man needs to be denounced, repudiated, shamed, and then most ignominiously, ignored.

Mostly, he needs to be ignored! I’ve turned off a couple of “Lutheran” podcasts in disgust because I’ve heard more than I want to. Why do we spend money to give his ideas more “bandwidth” or whatever the phrase is now?

Genug jetzt!

helen

Are any of “the people who are being taken in by Camping” likely to be reading this blog, or listening to Issues Etc or Pirate Christian radio? Somehow, I doubt it!

helen

Are any of “the people who are being taken in by Camping” likely to be reading this blog, or listening to Issues Etc or Pirate Christian radio? Somehow, I doubt it!

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Also, I seem to recall that the preferred method of backpedaling from failed religious predictions is to claim that they did occur … only, you know, spiritually … or invisibly … or the date they predicted was merely the beginning of the time period referred to, not the date on which the predictions would necessarily occur specifically.

Of course, Camping has already had two strikes. Even so, come October 21 of this year (God willing), he will still be several false prophecies short of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who have sort of made an art of this type of thing.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Also, I seem to recall that the preferred method of backpedaling from failed religious predictions is to claim that they did occur … only, you know, spiritually … or invisibly … or the date they predicted was merely the beginning of the time period referred to, not the date on which the predictions would necessarily occur specifically.

Of course, Camping has already had two strikes. Even so, come October 21 of this year (God willing), he will still be several false prophecies short of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who have sort of made an art of this type of thing.

Tom Hering

Helen, we also strengthen our understanding of orthodox faith by understanding the teachings of heretics. There are some truths I’ve only grasped after becoming familiar with the opposite lies.

Tom Hering

Helen, we also strengthen our understanding of orthodox faith by understanding the teachings of heretics. There are some truths I’ve only grasped after becoming familiar with the opposite lies.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Helen (@15), I doubt that they are as interested in seeking out discussions of their leader’s (failed) prophecies as they once were, but the Campingites did once swarm all over this blog (likely due to Google Alerts or something like that) when Veith first broached the topic of Camping’s (failed) prophecy in January 2010 — a time when his calculations were less empirically false.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Helen (@15), I doubt that they are as interested in seeking out discussions of their leader’s (failed) prophecies as they once were, but the Campingites did once swarm all over this blog (likely due to Google Alerts or something like that) when Veith first broached the topic of Camping’s (failed) prophecy in January 2010 — a time when his calculations were less empirically false.

Michael Lynch

Campingites no longer have any reason to chime in. Convincing us of Camping’s doctrine would do no good since God is not saving people any more.

Michael Lynch

Campingites no longer have any reason to chime in. Convincing us of Camping’s doctrine would do no good since God is not saving people any more.

Tom Hering

Not churchgoers, anyways.

Tom Hering

Not churchgoers, anyways.

SKPeterson

helen – we also must guard ourselves against being taken in, and also to speak out to those friends and family members who might be taken in.

SKPeterson

helen – we also must guard ourselves against being taken in, and also to speak out to those friends and family members who might be taken in.

larry

“Helen, we also strengthen our understanding of orthodox faith by understanding the teachings of heretics. There are some truths I’ve only grasped after becoming familiar with the opposite lies.”

Exactly. Luther makes this precise point regarding the continual existence of heretics and heresies.

larry

“Helen, we also strengthen our understanding of orthodox faith by understanding the teachings of heretics. There are some truths I’ve only grasped after becoming familiar with the opposite lies.”

Exactly. Luther makes this precise point regarding the continual existence of heretics and heresies.

larry

You beat me to it Todd!

larry

You beat me to it Todd!

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Larry (@22), any chance you have a more specific reference (or, better yet, a quote) for us on Luther’s “point regarding the continual existence of heretics and heresies”? I’m not familiar with that.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Larry (@22), any chance you have a more specific reference (or, better yet, a quote) for us on Luther’s “point regarding the continual existence of heretics and heresies”? I’m not familiar with that.

Michael Lynch

It was fairly easy to predict how Camping would update his teaching. What do you think he’ll come up with after the October date?

Michael Lynch

It was fairly easy to predict how Camping would update his teaching. What do you think he’ll come up with after the October date?

http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

Michael @ 25,

Based on his intention to refrain from publicizing it anymore, I think he’s just hoping everyone will forget by then and it’ll blow over.

http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

Michael @ 25,

Based on his intention to refrain from publicizing it anymore, I think he’s just hoping everyone will forget by then and it’ll blow over.

http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

I’m reminded of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons also had apocalyptic prophecies that failed regarding the second coming–the former in 1914 and other times, and the latter with the Civil War–and it’s also arguable that these groups tell people to stay away from the church (at least real ones) and doubt Christ.

So I’m thinking, per 1 John, that Camping is “a,” but not “the.”

http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

I’m reminded of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons also had apocalyptic prophecies that failed regarding the second coming–the former in 1914 and other times, and the latter with the Civil War–and it’s also arguable that these groups tell people to stay away from the church (at least real ones) and doubt Christ.

So I’m thinking, per 1 John, that Camping is “a,” but not “the.”

Tom Hering

Todd @ 24, Larry may have been thinking of this Luther quote from William Cunningham, The Reformers and the Theology of the Reformation, p. 148:

If heresies and offenses come, Christendom will only profit thereby, for they make Christians to read diligently the Holy Writ and ponder the same with industry … Thus through heretics and offenses we are kept alert and stouthearted, and amid wrangles and battles understand God’s word better than before.

Tom Hering

Todd @ 24, Larry may have been thinking of this Luther quote from William Cunningham, The Reformers and the Theology of the Reformation, p. 148:

If heresies and offenses come, Christendom will only profit thereby, for they make Christians to read diligently the Holy Writ and ponder the same with industry … Thus through heretics and offenses we are kept alert and stouthearted, and amid wrangles and battles understand God’s word better than before.

Jonathan

Tom, I like what you’ve done today w/the appearance of this blog. Nice work particularly on the Cranach portrait.

Jonathan

Tom, I like what you’ve done today w/the appearance of this blog. Nice work particularly on the Cranach portrait.

Tom Hering

Jonathan, that was Todd’s work, and I agree it’s excellent. There are three people playing around with the function and appearance of this blog: me, Todd, and Stewart (Bulldog). With Dr. Veith the stern taskmaster who forces us to do things against our better instincts as designers. Really. It’s true. 😀

Tom Hering

Jonathan, that was Todd’s work, and I agree it’s excellent. There are three people playing around with the function and appearance of this blog: me, Todd, and Stewart (Bulldog). With Dr. Veith the stern taskmaster who forces us to do things against our better instincts as designers. Really. It’s true. 😀

Grace

How many have falsely prophesied the FUTURE?

“The world runs and hastens so diligently to its end that it often occurs to me forcibly that the last day will break before we can completely turn the Holy Scriptures into German. For it is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. (ed.), A Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia, 1943), p. 245 (citing Luther’s Correspondence, Vol. II, No. 869, pp. 516 f.

There have been not a ‘few’ who have made ‘FALSE PROPHECIES’

Benny Hinn Martin Luther Jehovah’s Witnesses Chuck Smith

And many others, it’s not a short list.

We should all be in prayer, it does no good to continue to point to just one man, there is a line-up of those who have falsely prophesied the future.

Grace

How many have falsely prophesied the FUTURE?

“The world runs and hastens so diligently to its end that it often occurs to me forcibly that the last day will break before we can completely turn the Holy Scriptures into German. For it is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. (ed.), A Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia, 1943), p. 245 (citing Luther’s Correspondence, Vol. II, No. 869, pp. 516 f.

There have been not a ‘few’ who have made ‘FALSE PROPHECIES’

Benny Hinn Martin Luther Jehovah’s Witnesses Chuck Smith

And many others, it’s not a short list.

We should all be in prayer, it does no good to continue to point to just one man, there is a line-up of those who have falsely prophesied the future.

Abby

Jesus: “So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place . . . ” Mk 13:29-30

I’ve always been puzzled about the words “this generation”–the ones Jesus was talking to at that moment. He goes on to say to all: “Stay awake.” Because no one will know the hour. At any point in time He could return. Even in the next second. It’s ok to say that.

Abby

Jesus: “So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place . . . ” Mk 13:29-30

I’ve always been puzzled about the words “this generation”–the ones Jesus was talking to at that moment. He goes on to say to all: “Stay awake.” Because no one will know the hour. At any point in time He could return. Even in the next second. It’s ok to say that.

steve

Somebody said that Luther said that the Jesus would return soon. That, we are told, is the equivalent of Harold Camping stating publicly, over and over again, that the day of Judgment would be May 21, 2011 at 6:00 pm. Honestly?

steve

Somebody said that Luther said that the Jesus would return soon. That, we are told, is the equivalent of Harold Camping stating publicly, over and over again, that the day of Judgment would be May 21, 2011 at 6:00 pm. Honestly?

larry

Todd,

Yes, I don’t have it with me at this moment and can get it when I get home tonight. I was reading it just the other night in “What Luther Says” under the sections for heretics and heresies.

I’ll post it when I get home sometime tonight.

Larry

larry

Todd,

Yes, I don’t have it with me at this moment and can get it when I get home tonight. I was reading it just the other night in “What Luther Says” under the sections for heretics and heresies.

I’ll post it when I get home sometime tonight.

Larry

larry

Todd,

I’ll give the exact quote but he’s basically answering the why so many, why they vex us and why they continue.

larry

larry

Todd,

I’ll give the exact quote but he’s basically answering the why so many, why they vex us and why they continue.

Thanks to both Larry (over there) and Tom (@28) for those quotes, which appear to say more or less the same thing. Interesting stuff.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Thanks to both Larry (over there) and Tom (@28) for those quotes, which appear to say more or less the same thing. Interesting stuff.

Grace

Steve – 33

Martin Luther stated:

““The world runs and hastens so diligently to its end that it often occurs to me forcibly that the last day will break before we can completely turn the Holy Scriptures into German. For it is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. (ed.), A Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia, 1943), p. 245 (citing Luther’s Correspondence, Vol. II, No. 869, pp. 516 f.

A prophecy is a prophecy, whether it’s Camping or Martin Luther, Benny Hinn, or Chuck Smith….. they are all wrong, they were not given this information by God… it doesn’t matter what year it was, what matters is…. why did they give a prophecy which was false?

Grace

Steve – 33

Martin Luther stated:

““The world runs and hastens so diligently to its end that it often occurs to me forcibly that the last day will break before we can completely turn the Holy Scriptures into German. For it is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. (ed.), A Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia, 1943), p. 245 (citing Luther’s Correspondence, Vol. II, No. 869, pp. 516 f.

A prophecy is a prophecy, whether it’s Camping or Martin Luther, Benny Hinn, or Chuck Smith….. they are all wrong, they were not given this information by God… it doesn’t matter what year it was, what matters is…. why did they give a prophecy which was false?

Grace

God hasn’t told one single person when HE would return. Those who profess to have knowledge other than what is stated in the Word of God are guessing, they have not the ears to hear, nor are they willing to confess they are not listening to the LORD. But instead they voice their prophecy, for centuries, and we the Church of Christ listen, with dull ears. Are we willing to call false prophets who they are? —— OR are we so aligned with our denominations and churches that we stand ready to defend in feeble ways their false prophecies?

I am NOT WILLING. It’s wrong, my life with Christ throughout Eternity is worth so much more than to stand with a mere man, who has made a false prophecy. God will hold us all accountable!

Grace

God hasn’t told one single person when HE would return. Those who profess to have knowledge other than what is stated in the Word of God are guessing, they have not the ears to hear, nor are they willing to confess they are not listening to the LORD. But instead they voice their prophecy, for centuries, and we the Church of Christ listen, with dull ears. Are we willing to call false prophets who they are? —— OR are we so aligned with our denominations and churches that we stand ready to defend in feeble ways their false prophecies?

I am NOT WILLING. It’s wrong, my life with Christ throughout Eternity is worth so much more than to stand with a mere man, who has made a false prophecy. God will hold us all accountable!

steve

Grace, #38:

First, discounting the fact that I don’t think you’ll find this in Luther’s own writings, isn’t there something to be said of context? Have you ever said you believe the end is near? Or that you believe the end will come in your lifetime? If so, did you consider it a prophecy? Or were you speaking off-the-cuff about your own personal feelings?

steve

Grace, #38:

First, discounting the fact that I don’t think you’ll find this in Luther’s own writings, isn’t there something to be said of context? Have you ever said you believe the end is near? Or that you believe the end will come in your lifetime? If so, did you consider it a prophecy? Or were you speaking off-the-cuff about your own personal feelings?

Grace

Steve – 40

All the excuses will not change Martin Luther’s prophecy. You’re problem and those just like you – you can’t accept the fact that Luther made such a prophecy, and it FAILED!

I have never made a prophecy, nor do I intend to make one.

Luther’s prophecy is easy to read, easy to understand:

“The world runs and hastens so diligently to its end that it often occurs to me forcibly that the last day will break before we can completely turn the Holy Scriptures into German. For it is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. (ed.), A Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia, 1943), p. 245 (citing Luther’s Correspondence, Vol. II, No. 869, pp. 516 f.

It can’t be any clearer than that – Martin Luther made a prophecy that FAILED!

Martin Luther translated the Scriptures into German – it’s 500 years later, the LORD has not appeared.

Grace

Steve – 40

All the excuses will not change Martin Luther’s prophecy. You’re problem and those just like you – you can’t accept the fact that Luther made such a prophecy, and it FAILED!

I have never made a prophecy, nor do I intend to make one.

Luther’s prophecy is easy to read, easy to understand:

“The world runs and hastens so diligently to its end that it often occurs to me forcibly that the last day will break before we can completely turn the Holy Scriptures into German. For it is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Hugh Thomson Kerr, Jr. (ed.), A Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia, 1943), p. 245 (citing Luther’s Correspondence, Vol. II, No. 869, pp. 516 f.

It can’t be any clearer than that – Martin Luther made a prophecy that FAILED!

Martin Luther translated the Scriptures into German – it’s 500 years later, the LORD has not appeared.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Steve (@40), in case you’re unaware, it is pointless to try to reason with Grace on this. She hates Martin Luther and is dead-set on her anti-Lutheran agenda. Why else would she hang out on this blog — written by a Lutheran and largely populated with Lutheran commenters — taking every opportunity to derail any conversation into how Luther was wrong, wrong, wrong? It’s certainly not because she enjoys the company here, or engaging in reasoned debate.

No, Luther’s quote doesn’t strike me as a prophecy either — his speculative comment follows from the statement that he does tie to Scripture, “It is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Which is true. The Last Day could arrive at any point, and it is arrogance to assume that any long-term project you’re engaged in will necessarily be finished before Jesus comes again.

But Grace is trying her darnedest to make Luther into a false prophet. She willfully ignores the implications of the phrase “it often occurs to me”.

I do think that quote itself is actually from Luther, even if I think Grace hasn’t read a lick of Luther beyond what she can copy and paste from some anti-Lutheran Web site (and what little she has read is probably all smeared and hard to read from the spittle-flecking). I found it in a fairly reputable-looking book on Google Books. It comes from a letter from Luther to John Frederic, Duke of Saxony, in 1530. Of course, it helps to read the whole letter for context. But only reasonable people will likely do that.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Steve (@40), in case you’re unaware, it is pointless to try to reason with Grace on this. She hates Martin Luther and is dead-set on her anti-Lutheran agenda. Why else would she hang out on this blog — written by a Lutheran and largely populated with Lutheran commenters — taking every opportunity to derail any conversation into how Luther was wrong, wrong, wrong? It’s certainly not because she enjoys the company here, or engaging in reasoned debate.

No, Luther’s quote doesn’t strike me as a prophecy either — his speculative comment follows from the statement that he does tie to Scripture, “It is certain from the Holy Scriptures that we have no more temporal things to expect. All is done and fulfilled.” Which is true. The Last Day could arrive at any point, and it is arrogance to assume that any long-term project you’re engaged in will necessarily be finished before Jesus comes again.

But Grace is trying her darnedest to make Luther into a false prophet. She willfully ignores the implications of the phrase “it often occurs to me”.

I do think that quote itself is actually from Luther, even if I think Grace hasn’t read a lick of Luther beyond what she can copy and paste from some anti-Lutheran Web site (and what little she has read is probably all smeared and hard to read from the spittle-flecking). I found it in a fairly reputable-looking book on Google Books. It comes from a letter from Luther to John Frederic, Duke of Saxony, in 1530. Of course, it helps to read the whole letter for context. But only reasonable people will likely do that.

Ah…. so now it’s “speculative” – it doesn’t fly – it was a FALSE PROPHECY –

It’s easy to sling around other pastors, but when it’s Martin Luther, there is always a badly crafted excuse to cover it up. And then there is a little red pony clunking behind someone’s post.

Grace

Ah…. so now it’s “speculative” – it doesn’t fly – it was a FALSE PROPHECY –

It’s easy to sling around other pastors, but when it’s Martin Luther, there is always a badly crafted excuse to cover it up. And then there is a little red pony clunking behind someone’s post.

Grace

Don’t flatter yourself tODD, books are very easy to obtain, they aren’t all hidden, as you might like to think, in dark little corners within drafty university libraries, nor is google the only resource it’s probably yours, since you refer to “anti web sites” soooo often) – I do a great deal of research on many religious subjects. Reading is a given when researching. I have a large library in my home.

Grace

Don’t flatter yourself tODD, books are very easy to obtain, they aren’t all hidden, as you might like to think, in dark little corners within drafty university libraries, nor is google the only resource it’s probably yours, since you refer to “anti web sites” soooo often) – I do a great deal of research on many religious subjects. Reading is a given when researching. I have a large library in my home.

Grace (@45), I’ve seen the quality of your references and sources in comments on this blog. Trust me, Google is plenty sufficient for responding to your arguments.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Grace (@45), I’ve seen the quality of your references and sources in comments on this blog. Trust me, Google is plenty sufficient for responding to your arguments.

Grace

tODD – 47

You haven’t a clue – I wouldn’t trust a thing you said. You’ve gone after Porcell and myself, proving that you have a real axe to grind. You can’t accept the fact that others may know far more than you, on a variety of subjects. They also may have studied in areas you cannot claim knowledge, I can see how this must frustrate you.

Grace

tODD – 47

You haven’t a clue – I wouldn’t trust a thing you said. You’ve gone after Porcell and myself, proving that you have a real axe to grind. You can’t accept the fact that others may know far more than you, on a variety of subjects. They also may have studied in areas you cannot claim knowledge, I can see how this must frustrate you.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Grace, every day on this blog, I am privileged to engage in conversations with people who know far more than me about many things — and their comments show it. I have no problem with that — in fact, that’s one of the main reasons I engage in discussions here. I deeply respect the ideas and opinions of many people here.

You are not one of those people, no matter how much you try to play up your own supposed knowledge. You could be, if you tried, but you don’t really seem to care to be.

I mean, come on. You’d think a person with such a “large library” would be able to do more than repeatedly cut and paste a single Luther quote, over and over. You’d think such a person would be able to engage with the replies to her repeated attacks, rather than just saying “nuh-uh!” and pasting them again.

Also, pro tip: intelligent people usually rely on the force of their own ideas, their own arguments. They don’t need to brag about how much research they do or how huge their library is. For intelligent people, those things are obvious. The fact that you either have to, or feel the need to, point these things out to us says something about yourself you apparently don’t know.

http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

Grace, every day on this blog, I am privileged to engage in conversations with people who know far more than me about many things — and their comments show it. I have no problem with that — in fact, that’s one of the main reasons I engage in discussions here. I deeply respect the ideas and opinions of many people here.

You are not one of those people, no matter how much you try to play up your own supposed knowledge. You could be, if you tried, but you don’t really seem to care to be.

I mean, come on. You’d think a person with such a “large library” would be able to do more than repeatedly cut and paste a single Luther quote, over and over. You’d think such a person would be able to engage with the replies to her repeated attacks, rather than just saying “nuh-uh!” and pasting them again.

Also, pro tip: intelligent people usually rely on the force of their own ideas, their own arguments. They don’t need to brag about how much research they do or how huge their library is. For intelligent people, those things are obvious. The fact that you either have to, or feel the need to, point these things out to us says something about yourself you apparently don’t know.

Your rhetorical devices are puerile and endlessly repetitive – thus no originality. You cannot put an argument together, and your reading comprehension is not only subpar, it is nigh non-existent. The hilarious thing is that you are so ignorant and hard-headed, that you are impervious to correction, gentle or not-so-gentle, to the amusement of all.

Your knowledge is sorely lacking on virtually every single subject that is ever addressed here. Yet you take it upon yourself to sail forward into the ether on nothing but bluster and infantile rhetorical devises, repeating falsifiable factoids over and over again, quoting things you obviously do not understand, and displaying your primitive intellect for all and sundry. Furthermore, you have no social skills, displaying the manners of a prep-school student who desperately wants to be accepted into the inner circle, and therefore acts accordingly, wanting attention.

You are a troll, madam.

Ah, and in your good tradition, I’ll say it for you: Poor, poor Louis!

Louis

Well Grace, here it is:

Your rhetorical devices are puerile and endlessly repetitive – thus no originality. You cannot put an argument together, and your reading comprehension is not only subpar, it is nigh non-existent. The hilarious thing is that you are so ignorant and hard-headed, that you are impervious to correction, gentle or not-so-gentle, to the amusement of all.

Your knowledge is sorely lacking on virtually every single subject that is ever addressed here. Yet you take it upon yourself to sail forward into the ether on nothing but bluster and infantile rhetorical devises, repeating falsifiable factoids over and over again, quoting things you obviously do not understand, and displaying your primitive intellect for all and sundry. Furthermore, you have no social skills, displaying the manners of a prep-school student who desperately wants to be accepted into the inner circle, and therefore acts accordingly, wanting attention.

You are a troll, madam.

Ah, and in your good tradition, I’ll say it for you: Poor, poor Louis!