Notes From the Winter Meetings: Wednesday

-Yes, you heard correctly – Zack Greinke. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. The hottest rumor out of the Winter Meetings thus far pertaining to the Phillies is that they are “considering” the Royals ace and Cy Young winner. A person with knowledge of the situation told Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com that the Phillies brass has had internal discussions as well as talks with Kansas City about Greinke. Amaro said:

“We have explored and tried and talked about acquiring some significant players,” he said. “We’ve tried to shoot for the moon on some things and laid some groundwork, but the possibility of them happening is kind of remote.”

Unlikely as it may be, Ruben and his boys are stirring things up a bit down in Central Florida. It’s not as crazy as it sounds, but what would it cost? If Cole Hamels is involved, you stay away. Hamels fits beautifully in between the two Roy’s, so you don’t want to mess with that. In no uncertain terms, the Royals organization will pillage the Phils farm system – that’s a given. Dom Brown would have to be involved – also a given.

This trade rumor barely as legs, but it’s a big one nonetheless.

-Dennys Reyes still isn’t a Phillie, however, he could be one soon. There have been multiple reports today of him signing with the team, although nothing has been completed. It would be for one-year with a second-year option.

-Aaron Rowand is not coming to Philadelphia, so says Giants GM Brian Sabean. He said the rumors surrounding his expensive, little-used outfielder are conjecture. This one could be a possibility, especially if the Giants pay most of his remaining salary. He’s a guy the Phillies know well; he’s also a guy the Giants would love to unload. Keep an eye on this, it may have legs. Am I fan of it? Not really, but the market is thinned out after Matt Diaz and Jeff Francouer signed.

-Is Magglio worth it? Scott Boras, his agent-extraordinare, says the bidding begins at two-years, $20 million. If that number comes down a bit, then the Phillies might be on to something. However, I’m just not sure if he’s worth $10 million a year. I’m also not so sure Carlos Peña is worth $10 million a season either, but that’s what the Cubs gave him, so anything’s possible.

UPDATE, 9:00 AM Thursday: While I was tucked away in bed, Dennys Reyes finally signed a contract with the Phillies; go figure. The deal is worth $1.1 million in 2011 and there is a mutual option worth $1.35 million in 2012. If Reyes reaches 70 appearances this year, he’ll have the right to exercise that. There is also a $150,000 buyout in ’12.

Not a bad deal for a lefty who will have to remember how to stop lefties. Then again, this seems to be the going rate for guys of his caliber nowadays. Just yesterday, George Sherrill signed a similar contract with the Atlanta Braves. Reyes can’t be any worse than J.C. Romero was in his final year-and-a-half in Philly, and for less than half the price.

UPDATE, 9:12 am Thursday: In the Rule 5 draft, the Phillies selcted Michael Martinez, an infielder from the Washington Nationals. Martinez, 28, is a light-hitting, switch-hitter who has been a minor league lifer. In AAA last season, he had a .720 OPS and played five positions.

They’ll get a better look at him during Spring Training to see if he’s worth keeping for an entire season. By the looks of his numbers, it’s a long shot. If the Phillies do not keep him, he will have to be offered back to the Nats.

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123 Comments

Geoff

December 8, 2010 at 11:58 pm

Fascinating about Greinke. I’d sacrifice lots of farm talent, including Brown if we could have a top 4 of Doc, Hamels, Oswalt, & The Great Greinke. Theyd obviously turn around and move Blanton as a salary dump. Let a bunch of leftover prospects, Kendrick, Eddie Bonine, etc, compete for 5th.

I really like Greinke. But I also really don’t like the idea of basically emptying out what’s left of our farm system for someone who’d be our #4 pitcher. Sure, he’d be the greatest #4 in the world, but the benefits dont outweigh the costs.

No to Grienke, as fun as it sounds, we can’t gut our farm system or give up any young MLers. They’re not going to take Blanton, Raul and a bunch of garbage for him. Just no.

I love the idea of Rowand if we’re only paying half or less of his salary. Ibanez could go back to the west coast, and be the next Pat Burell, Edgar Renteria type they seem to like so much.

I have loudly been touting Magglio for quite a while, but that is no longer seems wise at 17 or 18 over 2. I was thinking more like 10/2. We have people to pay next year and for years after. Might just have to settle for BenFran/Gload- or BenFran/Brown if he makes it in Spring.

@psujoe from the other thread- I know Sherrill quite well, as I live near Baltimore. He’s just okay, or better yet, inconsistent is the right word. I also don’t believe he thinks of himself as a Loogy and could be a malcontent. I repeat, Braves can have him.

Baseball is becoming a joke. First werthless with that big contract. Now Crawford to the Red Sox for 7 years 145 million. Its out of control. What about the Royals, Pirates, etc. This is why the NFL is the best in the world. You do not know who will win. In baseball you do. I hope this sport gets runied with these big deals.

The NFL is not the best in the world by far. It is the most hypocritical league in the whole world. It is stuffed full of criminals who have actually killed people and yet are there making millions while people starve. Tell me how baseball is worse? There is absolutely no defense for the disgraceful morally bankrupt sideshow that the NFL is today.

I am completely against trying to get Grienke. Sure he’s good, but he has never pitched in pressure and he has a history with anxiety issues. He’s perfect in a small market but I could see the same thing happening to him that happened to Vazquez when he went to NYY(just flat out forget what to do with a baseball in his hands). For what he’d cost in terms of money and players, it just wouldn’t work out well for us.

I’m not against depleting the farm for an impact player, and several of our best prospects are currently blocked anyway, but not sold on Grienke. How long is he signed for? Getting him wouldn’t do a thing a for 2011. The division will not be good next year. On paper, the Phils already have the pitching to win it, who cares if you take it by 1 game or 20. Unless an injury to H2O, he probably wouldn’t even pitch in the playoffs. This would be for 2012 and beyond, and I think there may be a few more pressing needs.

I’d take Rowand if the Giants pay the majority of his contract, and he’s willing to accept the role of bench/platoon player. He’s a reckless fielder, and his power is pretty much gone. He couldn’t crack the outfield of the Giants, which short of Burrell’s hot streak, was pretty offensively challenged in the later half of the year.

If the Sox have any pitching next year, they are going to be real tough. The Yanks are now really going to overpay for Lee, or may be out of contention next year.

Greinke has those anxiety issues, right?? I can’t see him playing in the NL East with all that pressure.

I think people are feeding off the St Louis fanbase with Reyes. Apparantely they don’t like him anymore? Maybe he fell out of favor with La Russa? But I think for the price, it’s worth it. (I STILL don’t get the Sherrill thing though)

Aaron Rowand?? Really?? I just can’t see it. I’d go after Maggs for 2/15.

Amaro isn’t stupid; he’s not going to trade Hamels for Greinke, because that would be a wash or maybe even worse given Greinke’s social anxiety problems.

The reason for looking, though, is that there is the possibility that Oswalt retires when his current contract runs out, which I believe is the end of this year. He’s talked about it. If he does, the Phils will certainly want someone to take his place.

Ordonez will be asking for too much money, especially considering he’s pretty old and coming off an injury.

I’m okay with Reyes. He may turn out to be a bargain, but if not, he came really cheap. He might cost the Phils a game or two, but if he does, Manuel will simply stop using him in key situations.

Rowand won’t be moved right away unless the Giants cough up a big piece of change to pay him. This is one to watch, though. Rowand wouldn’t need so much power to hit one out at CBP, he still plays decent defense, and he could spell Victorino in center from time to time.

Firstly on Reyes I wouldn’t think Reyes is going to be an upgrade over Romero, I’d assume the Phillies signed him as a handle to Bastardo in the hope he can take a big leap this year. Remember Charlie gave him a lot of chances last year to pitch to both lefties and righties and not just in lost games.

Secondly I guess it’s no surprise there’s been so few rumors on Maggs with Boras posturing to the tune of $20m, no way he gets that with the way the Tigers trashed his rep last year.

Reyes is fine. Better than the J.C. post suspension – not as good as J.C. pre- suspension. I have an idea for a lefty reliever. How about J.C. Romero? If he’s meandering out there a week before spring training, why not offer him a minor league contract? Or maybe a mill? Would he take it? I don’t know.

This Greinke stuff is nuts. Lets stop.

When we are thinking of what kinda RH bat we’re going to get, lets try to think like Rube. Its his last year with Oswalt, Lidge, Madson, Rollins. Why would he short change the team with some half assed Brown or Gload/Francisco platoon in RF? It makes no sense. He would be shortchanging his squad during a year where it MIGHT be their last best chance to win the series for a while. Her owes it to the team to get a big bat. IMO.

Unless a major pitching move is again made or his production (or health) falls off a cliff I’d expect the Phils to pick up Oswalts 2012 option since his buyout is so big.

I’d expect us to re-sign Rollins or lets be honest (as sad as it would make us for him to leave) the Phils could easily replace his production over the last couple of years, have Vic leading off permanently and allocate that money elsewhere which would also give greater line-up flexibility.

Madson will probably get a stupid deal elsewhere and Lidge will probably leave, just prey we don’t give up our 1st round pick and more money than the national debt of Ireland to sign Jonathan freakin’ Papelborn.

The Phils have options for RF this year. A lot more options coming on the market for next year though.

No way on Greinke. He would cost a TON in prospects, probably Dom Brown plus several of our outstanding single A pitching prospects.

Ordonez for two years at 7.5/per I would consider. Put him in right this year, then in 2012 when Ibanez is gone move Maggs to left and bring up brown. That helps our right/lefty balance and allows Brown to move at his own pace. Of course, if Brown is really ready that changes things a bit.

Besides the fact that Ordonez is about to turn 37 and is coming off of a broken ankle (Victorino should ask for a raise if he’s put in a situation where he’s playing between Ibanez and Ordonez), he has publically stated that he wants to stay in Detroit. He probably will…the Detroit websites seem to think it’s a slam dunk that he returns.

The Phils track record of developing pitchers in house is very low outside of Hamels, Madson. The other pick that may be successful was used to land Doc (Drabek). And Savery, the other former #1 pick is not converting to be a position player. Point is, it seems easier to develop position players than Cy Young Award winners. Going after Grienke hard is something we should do. Yes, one of them will be a #4 pitcher next year but after that but Oswalt is only signed through 2011 (option for 2012).

Getting Grienke and filling the holes is a successful plan- look at the Giants- they are the blueprint now for how to win. The Giants core are their 4 starting pitchers and Posey and fill in the gaps along the way. A core rotation of Doc, Hamels, and Grienke post 2011 would keep us in contention for alot longer.

Ted, I heard that too about him staying in Detroit. Good relationships with several of his teammates and Jim Leyland apparantely loves him. It’s probably a long shot…but worth at least exploring and moving on. Who knows…

If it made sense for the Phillies to land Grienke then why doesn’t it make more sense for the Giants to go for him? or the Braves who have the prospects to add him?

If it was easy making trades and winning championships as is discussed here there would be a french revolution style take over of front offices.

The Phillies can develop pitching, we haven’t had the space or better yet the merry-go round pitching staffs the teams with the best young pitching have (and in most cases have paid big bonus’s for)… Would you have liked it if the Phils have drafted Rick Porcello now? The guy would be getting chased out of town like Gavin Floyd.

NJ – Out of that list, I’d take Milledge on an inexpensive one year deal. If he responds to playing on a real team in front of sellout crowds, than maybe you have your leftfielder in 2012. If not, than it was a worthwhile experiment. I’d rather gamble on the 26 year old player than the 36 year old player.

Oh yeah, he hit .320 off of lefties last season.

People point to his “baggage”, but a guy like Josh Hamilton had issues way beyond Milledge’s perceived immaturity and he overcame them. Milledge doesn’t have the upside of Hamilton, but a .280-20-80-20 year isn’t hard to imagine with him playing everyday in CBP.

Ryes is ok I think Bastardo is going to be the first lefty or the lefty for pressure situation by the end of they year.
As far a Grienke goes, how do you not see what it will take, if you can throw Blanton in there, and even Brown, but you would need to defitly get a productive RH RF.

Lets settle one thing- names that keep getting thrown out to get moved to make a aggressive are silly.

Blanton has no trade value whatsoever
Victorino doesn’t have greate trade value
Ibanez has less than no trade value
Kyle Kendrick has no trade value
John Mayberry won’t have much trade value
Mike Rizzoti isn’t going to greatly add to a trade package

Teams looking to get rid of a star want major league talent with as little service time as possible, role players they can use now who aren’t going to cost them much and prospects they have a book on from the draft. They don’t want to give up their stars for expensive veterans locked into deals, veterans nearing free agency, players in or reaching arbitration years who are non-tender candidates and prospects we like more than what they probably have.

Ted Bell, dead on. Look at the teams Milledge was on – no real leaders on the field or the clubhouse. Now stick him in a locker room with Charlie, Rollins, Utley, Howard, Halladay, Oswalt, Polanco,… these guys work their a$$e$ off, and will not tolerate a frat boy atmosphere. Do you really think they’ll let him get away with that stuff?

In regards to a comparison with Hamilton – everyone acts like a child at some point in their life (most stop after being an adult, but some are slower in catching on than others). One in a million survive what Hamilton’s done to himself to become a star.

Milledge is the definition of high risk, high reward, and if he gets his act together, has the skills to be an all-star. He’s that one guy that has exciting potential, the rest of the list are stop-gaps at best.

The Yankees offered Lee the extra year but less per year than their original offer?

I wish Ruben would just offer him 24/6=144 with a team option for 7 and tell him he won’t wear his arm out here as compared to other teams because of the strength of our staff. And unlike Greinke, it costs us no young talent.

Yes it’s 12m less, but it could be 12m more if he adapts Doc’s workout regimin. With those four aces, we can pay less for position guys.

Fair points on Milleadge with the Mets who certainly were more talented than hard working but it says a lot that he gets exiled to the Nats and gets beaten out by veterans and young outfielders and then exclusively young players with the Bucs.

If the two teams who were in most need of players gave up on him I don’t think he has a hope in hell of earning any opportunity here

Paying Milledge $1 million (which is probably what he would have made in arbitration) on a one year deal is a gamble that I’d take anytime. There’s absolutely no upside to anyone else on that free agent list (and they’d all be a lot more expensive). The idea that he’d somehow disrupt a team full of veterans is ridiculous. If he works out, maybe you have Milledge in LF and Brown in RF in 2012. If he flops, it would be far less money than what they’ve wasted on some other players over the years.

Ted, I agree with you. He’s still a kid and he has played on putrid teams in putrid cities whose locker rooms were probably the equivalent of the one in Major League. Willie Mays Hayes in one corner, The Voodoo Guy in another…oh…crossed with the locker room in “Slapshot”. You throw a young kid in with a bunch of hasbeens and neverweres than you can end up like Milledge. Maybe all he needs is a real chance with real players and I, for one, don’t think that 1m is too much to find out.

The ONLY way I’d go for Milledge is to sit him down from DAY ONE and tell him that the first sign of trouble and his a$$ is gonna get kicked by guys like Doc who aren’t gonna put up with any horsesh*t in the clubhouse.

Victorino is tradable to a team ready to take the next step. He’s the antithesis of what a team like the Royals would want, a two year roadblock to one of the many prospects that go up and down with that team who probably wouldn’t re-sign there even if they still wanted him around…

If Charlie thinks he can fix Jeff Francoeur’s swing, then he should certainly be willing to give Lastings Milledge a shot. He was such a high caliber prospect and has shown flashes of talent. I’d definitely be willing to give him a shot and platoon him in right field for $1M.

I wouldn’t be so sure to jump on Kendrick not having much trade value, not too many pitichers have won 10+ games in 3 out of 3 1/2 years in the bigs. I mean one year you can say in the right place right time, but he does manage to win. As he had some rough games this year, he also had some lights out starts too. For our staff he is at best a 5th starter, be he is not as bad as some of you make him out to be

Honestly, Cliff doesn’t seem worth more than 18 a year. I’m so glad Halladay actually can see past the dollar amount and signed to win. What a steal he was, 60 for 3 years. I’d let the Rangers offer more if I were the Yankees, let them go bankrupt on a pitcher who was in the minors 4 years ago and who has probably 3/7 good years left ahead.

I, too, think the Lee sweepstakes winner will be the team that doesn’t sign him. He’s good, but not as good as those contracts being offered. Makes me glad the Phils traded him instead of trying to work out a deal.

Also, whoever said the Phils have a crummy track record developing pitchers in-house has forgotten a few, like Brett Myers, J.A. Happ and the aforementioned Gavin Floyd, who has been pretty decent since he was traded. And just because the Phils have traded a few doesn’t mean they can’t develop them. Just the idea that another team wants those pitchers is indicative of the Phils’ success.

And Lefty, just because Manuel might stop using Reyes in key situations does not mean he’ll stop using him entirely. If that were true, I’d gladly do his job for half what he’s going to be paid, too. Personally, I don’t think I’d want to face Albert Pujols under any circumstances.

Kendrick’s value would be low because he’d be a non-tender candidate soon with all the service time he has now. He’s not going to be dirt cheap for much longer and most bottom feeders seem to prefer giving older veterans chances like the Ponson’s and Chen’s of the world.

I’m on board with all of you concerning the points made about the Lee sweepstakes. I hope the Yankees don’t get him….just on principle.

On the RF with pop: Juan Rivera has pop, but he can’t field worth crap. Do we really need that headache?? Ordonez seems like a long shot…at best. While Ben Fran has pop….can turn on a fastball….I’m not sure I’m completely comfortable with just him as that guy.

When those contracts are so gargantuan it makes you look at that Halladay deal and say boy that was a hell of a coup.

Come to think of it that Howard one aint so bad when you consider he’s already earning almost $20m p/y and RAJ tacked on just 3 years making it his deal 5 years and not 7 like almost all the $100m+ deals

This ridiculous Cliff Lee crap is really illuminating. To me, its just another indication that MLB baseball teams do far better than they lead us to believe. Take the Texas Rangers. A team in freakin bankruptcy, thinking about signing p Lee a contract at 20m a year. I wonder what their “creditors” think of that? Gimme a break. The Dodgers, alleged financially strafed from the McCourt divorce, resign Kuroda to 1y/12m? What? When teams keep their payrolls down, its not because they have to, its because they want to increase their profit margin, plain and simple. Cliff Lee signing with the Yanks for 7y155m or whatever doesn’t mean crap to the Yankees. Its just drop in the bucket. Scott Boras knows it. Its all just a secret fraternity of rich dudes behind the curtain printing money, sports’ Skull and Bones if you will.

Baseball is free enterprise and I know that, but Boros seems to always push the envelope as far as contracts are concerned. There is such a gap between teams who are “HAVES” and “HAVE NOTS” that it isn’t funny. I cannot help but believe that sooner or later we will see a baseball team go the way of the Pittsburgh Penguins, and I mean that they will declare bankruptcy. These salaries absolutely blow my brittle old mind. And someone said that Howard’s contract looks like a financial coup. I agree with that statement NOW but cannot believe I am saying this when six months ago I thought it was financial suicide. Baseball finances are changing so fast my head is spinning. How far can it possibly go?

Boras is a players best asset and the sports worst nightmare, it’s just a shame he doesn’t use his power to address getting some more security for the bottom feeders who aren’t set for life when they retire like almost all of his clients.

Skull and Bones….good analogy. These guys are in a completely different stratosphere than the rest of us. In a way, I can understand what that jacka$$, jeff, is saying about salaries. It’s really gotten way out of hand if most of us are now saying that Howard’s contract will be a bargain when it’s all over with.

It’s sad but its not money anymore it’s status. As I say to my old pa, it’s a sad state of affairs and you just hope these guys are paying their full share of taxes and really making a difference with their charities/foundations.

It’s sad, but anyone making $150 million probably ISN’T paying his full share of taxes. When you’re in the stratosphere financially, you can afford an army of accountants and tax attorneys to find every tax dodge and loophole there is.

I’m not sure about charities/foundations, but I’d guess that at least some of these guys could give a whole lot more and never even notice their wallet’s been lightened. I’m not saying all of them do, but even the most charitable people around generally live in the biggest houses they can find, and drive the most expensive vehicles. Lizzie Dole made more money heading the Red Cross for a few years than many of us make in our entire lifetimes.

I don’t personally don’t care how rich the teams are. Just don’t lie to me and poor mouth me when it comes to signing players. Some teams wanna win more than other teams and its always been that way. Some teams wanna make money more than they wanna win. When you have this divergence of prioritizing in a professional sports league, it just sucks. In the NBA, teams spend the max they can spend. NFL and NHL, too. In MLB, one team can spend 40m and the other 220m. We need a hard cap like football but we’ll never have one because that involves revenue sharing and revenue sharing necessitates teams telling you how much they make, which will never happen.

Right before CBP opened, the Phillies had little interest in winning. Its not that they didn’t wanna win, it just wasn’t the most important thing. Then they had to sign Thome for the new park. Then, to the chagrin of the owners, our farm system started producing and fliers on Victorino and Werth panned out. Next thing you know, we have a really good team. Practically by accident. This team didn’t do squat for 10-15 years before CBP opened to really make this team a contender. Free Agents? We didn’t sign any of note. None. When this team got good and had the bad judgment to hire Pat Gillick to make them better, expectations became heightened and more money needed to be poured in the team. Woe is them. Then the Halladay/Lee fiasco. The best and worst of sports in 48 hours or less.

Hopefully, the current culture has changed management philosophy. Winning is fun. People wanna see winning. People will pay to see winning. Maybe ownership enjoys higher overhead and bigger revenue to low overhead and lower revenue as the method to get by in these trying economic times. I certainly hope so. I have no idea why I am going off on this tangent. Maybe its because the previously wobegon Washington Nationals!!! just gave Jayson Werth a gazillion dollars to play baseball in the mausoleum they call a stadium. Did they just wake up Sunday morning and decide that they wanted to spend some cash? Stimulus package? They’re Washington for god’s sake.

I’m just getting older. Crankier. The whole world just seems nuts. Nobody talks to each other anymore because they have earphones in their head or they’re twiddling on an Iphone or playing video games. Nobody reads a book. Nobody drinks milk. Nobody sits at the dinner table and soon we’ll have no newspapers. What I wouldn’t give to just tee up a record album and watch a little wrestling on Prism.

Oh yeah absolutely. The tax stuff is a joke. If youre pulling in tens of millions or more like that, you dont pay much tax. The tax laws are written for that very purpose, with loads of loopholes. It only really hurts the rest of us in that regard.

I think MLB is heading in the same direction as European soccer with those heavy transfer fees. In that realm, you can sign a player to a 5 year deal for 10 million a year, say, but you have to pay the team that he is on tens of millions of Pounds/Euros. Unless he is out of contract, which is rarely allowed to happen. Usually they are in their last year, then the team tries to resign them and cashes in if they cannot. But, if youre Manchester United or Barcelona you can come in and sign anyone for any price and fork out 70M to the team to buy them on top of that. It is like the posting system.

Similarly, with Free Agency now with these deals. the gap between the big franchises and the small ones is absurd.

Oh I agree as well…the Phillies could have afforded to resign Werth, easily, but they knew that giving him that length was just stupid on the field as well as in the bank account. They probably would have signed Carl Crawford if he was right handed. But giving the cash to Lee like this is also stupid.

The Phillies can afford to bring in Greinke and then give him an extension after that. Don’t let them fool you. Just wait until their next TV deal.

Ugh don’t get me started on English football and World Soccer! As an Englishman who follows US sports and sees the financial set-up its just disgusting when you see young players earning less than $500 and then there are kids here in the EPL and who come to the EPL who are on £50-60k a week… Organisations like Fifa and Eufa make people like Bud Selig and Scott Boras look like bunny rabbits!

Don’t want to hijack the thread about taxes, but why do people think the Millionaires and Billionaires don’t mind if their rate goes up? Because most of what they make is sheltered. No more writeoffs, none. Lower the tax rate to about 20% for any penny over $50K, 0% under. It’s really simple if you remove all the lobbyists that make up the tax code.

The top wages in most sports are ridiculous but the thing thats so out of whack in ‘soccer’ and especially in the EPL and English ‘Championship’ is the lower end of the scale and remember we get a lot more out of a £ than you do a $…

The problem is not paying top tier players top tier money, it is guys like Carlos Pena and his 198 BA getting 10 million a year, And a guy like Wreth making 17 million a year. I have no problem with productive guys raking in cash, Howard 20-25 million is ok Puljouis getting 24-28 million dollars ok with that. Doc getting 20 million cool with that. But giving Adam no defense done what 13 million. that is where it goes wrong.
I still say if you can sign Lasting Mildrege sp for 1 year 1 million or under with a second year option or even sign the guy for 2 years with a 3rd year team option for for million or under would not cost that much if you have to release him at any point. The guy can rake against lefties, speed, more of a real lead off hitter than either Vic or JRoll, you could have a line up as follows
LM
Poly
Chase
Ryan
JRoll
Vic
Raul
Chooch
Pitcher
or knowing Charlie you could swap JRoll and LM
I feel this would work cause I have faith the Ben Fran can do a good enough job full time in RF, and Lasting’s upside for the price is almost too hard to turn done, and he could even be a late inning defensive replacment for Raul.

Dipsy- Great rant, I’m with you. They CAN do what they tell us they can’t, just stop lying to us. It’s just a matter of how they set up their business model.

I believe what you are saying is analogous to a Wawa Gas station- they can sell gas for .20 per gallon less than other stations and do a huge business. But most stations prefer to sell it higher and do less business. Less overhead, salaries etc. In the end, they both make the same profit margin.

When the Borationals pull chit like this week driving the entire market into frenzy, it drives me nuts.

Dipsy!!! WOW!!! Man that was good. I’m with ya, bro. This week has been crazy starting with that idiotic Werth contract. God only knows what Cliff “God” Lee will end up with but the whole mess does give one pause as to what’s up with all our priorities as a society in general. Even though the Phillies can/could afford any player they desire, I am glad they have chosen a more sane approach to putting a potentially winning team on the field.

Everyone here loves hearing a rumor. And so it is with another one named Greinke. Never mind its’ lack of logic or common sense when the Phillies already have a solid rotation. In the real world, we see GM Amaro starting to fill holes (replacing Romero & Durbin) in the bullpen with the signing of Dennys Reyes, a LH situational reliever. Yet hardly a peep here on Amaro’s latest acquisition. And it makes me nervous to hear rumors of the Phillies’ prized prospect, Dom Brown in any possible trade. I have to reassure myself that again, it’s only rumor(s). In the real world, Francisco (RH) and Brown (LH) will likely share playing time in RF. And once Brown adjust and gains confidence, he could very well contend for Rookie of The Year honors. I’m looking forward to seeing this kid play.

Dipsy, compelling as usual my friend. However, 10-15 years since they wanted to win?
Let me ask you, what was the bulk of the 93 offense?
Nails – free agent
Kruck – free agent
Inky – free agent
Mariano Duncan (ok a stretch but he had been around)
Even the pitching,
Danny Jackson, Terry Mulholland, Mitch Williams all free agents.

Fast forward to 2003, right after the Phils signed Thome, they also signed Millwood (who’d a thunk the 18-5 record with the Braves was the anomole in his career?) and that is when I committed to buying tickets.

So, you’re right and wrong. The quality of the free agents they signed in the past, or the money they spent was always suspect. I too did not believe they wanted to win.

But look at the value of the dollar now. What in the &$#( is going on? How can anyone in their right minds ink someone to a binding contract for 7 years? Is it a guarenteed deal? What if the player gets injured where he cannot perform? 7 years, anything can happen.. it is totally mind boggling and you guys are right, Lee is good but he aint no Halladay!

Brooks – To me, big free agents are Rose, Thome, Lance Parrish and Gregg Jeffries (who didn’t work out). Premiere players. I think we can agree that the ’93 team was lighting in a bottle. I doubt that any of those signings that you mentioned, when made, were considered large or difference making. Not to take credit away from those who built a good team. This is not to mention the players, Schilling and Rolen, who wanted to leave because they perceived that the owners didn’t give a damn about winning. Go to your Baseball Reference and check out the teams from 86 to 2000 and try not to wince.

The Phillies are an example of a team that changed. Which is great. Just look at the Orioles. My god, how sad is that? What a history and they stink. Baseball owners have no built in impetus to win. If your teams has a low payroll and sucks, you are rewarded with a reasonable profit from operations and then a big fat check collected for the luxury tax from the year before.

The ’93 team was one of those situations that comes along and shocks the baseball world. What a fun ride THAT was! But considering what preceded it and what came after it…..the Phillies pretty much SUCKED for almost 20 years. And, you’re right, management was lulled into a state of it being “ok”

As for the Orioles, is there any team out there that has fallen so hard after so much success….and has yet to get back up?? I mean, seriously, what is it now?? 12 straight losing seasons? Hopefully, genius Buck Showalter can make some sort of difference down there. Their fans have to be the most pissed at the Werth deal because it’s right in their back yard.

I’m not sure I totally agree here without seeing the books. But it is certain that major league baseball is a business and nothing else. Every business has it’s winners and losers; the bankruptcy courts are full of the losers, and it’s not always because those franchises and corporations and LLCs chose not to spend money to improve.

Also, despite what one might think, there is always a limit to revenue. Pittsburgh, for instance, is not a huge area, and has the disadvantage of being too close to markets such as Philadelphia and Cincinnati, which suck off a certain number of fans and viewers.

I’m not saying that Pittsburgh ownership doesn’t sit on their backsides waiting for their revenue sharing checks; I’m only stating that they may actually be somewhat poorer than other teams.

Perhaps a better example would be the Florida teams. Neither the Marlins nor the Rays have spent what one might consider “enough money to get the job done” but have still fielded winners and still produced stars. Their rewards have been consistently poor attendance. One can’t always make money by spending more.

One other thing: Sometimes creating a winning or a losing team is not an attitude, but a scouting issue. Some teams just sign the wrong guys or draft the wrong guys or trade for the wrong guys. Some teams overpay or underpay depending on factors that include everything from skilled analysis to basic and simple dumb luck.

And by the way, Terry Mulholland didn’t come as a free agent; he was obtained from the Giants in a trade.

Dip I would definitely disagree with a the comment “Then, to the chagrin of the owners, our farm system started producing and fliers on Victorino and Werth panned out. Next thing you know, we have a really good team. ” They may not have had confidence in what they were doing before, but I am sure the Ownership wanted to win, just had no idea how to do it at that point other than luck into it like 93. Gillick was a great hire the voice that made this team the top notch organization it is, Wade was the one responsible for making the farm what it was.

@Jeff – I think the Phillies were very content with just cruising along doing just enough to put fannies in the seats of their new ballpark, and thats it. I think that when Rollins and Utley and Howard and all those guys started to pan out, and the team became good, I genuinely believed that it frightened management. After all, what is the sense of ownership paying higher salaries for good players instead of mediocre salaries for mediocre players when the improvement in the product didn’t make them enough money in the end. That was “Phase I”, I’ll call it.

Then “Phase II”. The team got really good. Good beyond the owner’s imaginations. In order to make the real big bucks you can’t be 91-71 and just missing the playoffs every year good, you need to blow up, and that’s what the Phils did. Post season, WS, merchandising, hot dogs, beer, parking, etc. This is the revenue that makes the higher salaries make sense, in my view. This team is a brand, now. People in other areas of the country are Phils fans and spending money for the privilege.

Sometimes its better to be lucky than good, and the Phils were both, even if the owners had to be dragged along during the first stage. They eventually got out of their own way and let Pat and Ruben do the driving. They’re certainly hip to how it all works now and we are very lucky baseball fans.

I still don’t think, however, that Monty and Co. realize what they have here. They STILL treat Philly as a “small” market in some ways. In some respects it’s good because practicing some fiscal restraint helps to keep games affordable for most fans. I want to be able to go to my 10 or so games a year with my son and buy the occasional jersey or hat and not feel like I was just gang-raped in the process.

It’s a fine balance between putting a quality, championship-caliber team on the field without becoming the Yankees or Red Sox in the process.

7 years for guys in their late 20s like Adrian Gonzales (28) and Carl Crawford (29) make a bit more sense, though they are still pretty incredible. I’m glad we’re staying away from all those ridiculous contracts. Oh wait, we have Howard (31) locked up for the next 7 years, too (the 5-or-6-year extension kicks in after the 2011 season). Though I’d give that contract to Howard over Werth any day, any time. Oh well.

Pujols is the better of the two between him and Howard…so he SHOULD be receiving more than Ryan. But Howard’s contract will definitely be a bargain when it’s on its back end. Pujols will probably be a 30M per I would think.

I agree…it is a shame that baseball is getting ruined. It’s always been my favorite sport for many reasons. I love the pitcher/hitter psychology with each at bat. I love that any player on any given night can single handedly win the game for you, whether it be Ryan Howard or Ross Gload or Roy Halladay. It’s the only sport without a time clock. And I love the fact that the players don’t do a celebration dance after doing what they’re PAID to do…unlike football and basketball. I couldn’t imagine being a fan in Kansas City or Pittsburgh or God forbid, Toronto and Baltimore. Unless they catch lightning in a bottle, those teams will never win their division. Most teams can’t compete anymore. Or you have a team like the Nationals that wants to compete, but has to significantly overpay a player to come play for them, thus helping to ruin the economics of the game. Like Chuck, I’d like to continue going to a handful of games and not have to break the bank to do it. But something drastic has to be done with these salary increases and it has to happen fast or it will only be corporations in attendance in the near future. Other than that, the game is still pretty awesome. Have a good weekend fellow phans.

That makes more sense! I definitely agree with the 2 phase part, I mean I am sure they wanted to win just not willing to risk throwing crazy money to do so. As you said just content on making it almost look like they wanted to win at all costs with the Thome, Millwood, Bell signings

Actually I really tend to ignore the salaries for the most part, cause we are an organization that can play with the big dogs and we have a winning way here now.

Many forget when ARod got that huge 10 year deal with the Rangers, everyone was outraged, then all the salaries hung around the same going up steadily and slowly and now the big pocket teams have not won enough recently so they have to outbid everyone.

I agree Werth’s deal is ridiculous, so is any deal Lee will get. To say Lee is worth the highest salary in Baseball is absurd, We all know who the best pitcher in baseball is and how much he gets paid.

Crawford maybe since he is not over 30 and has proven track record. Pujols will get an obnoxious salary that will make Howards look like a steal. As long as Ryan breaks the funk he was in most of this year including the playoffs he will be worth it. I am fairly confident that Rollins, Utley, Howard, Vic are going to have solid to stand out years… if they do we take the NL.

I think Hamels continues his dominance of 2010 and Roy O, with a fresh start with the club right out of the spring, will win 15 games. Doc is Doc and I would think that a healthy Blanton will be fine.

This COULD be their last immediate shot, though, with expiring contracts at the end of the year and a LOT of questions moving forward.

Dipsy makes a good point in that why would Ruben NOT go out and get a big bat to serve this lineup and these guys well?? It wouldn’t make sense unless they feel SOOOOO confident that Ben Fran can be that guy.

IMO long term you do not need that big bat this year, I think Ben can be a 20HR 75 RBI .275 hitter mostly full time with maybe some platooning in RF, also an above average defensive guy. Take Ryan Jimmy and Chase hitting like they can and Poly being a little better because he will not have a bone floating around his elbow, the offense can win 100 games. Especially if Chooch can ht .290 with a ..400 OBP like last year. This team can score 4-6 runs a game more than enough for wins even when Big Joe/Kendrick/Worley are pitching.

I think that’s what Ruben thinks, too…that Francisco can produce with those numbers…..which is ok with me. I’ll take that from him. In reality, like Don said the other day, who out there besides Maggs is really any better than Francisco at this point?