I don't know that his personal behaviours, while troubling and certainly something he should be shamed for, are enough of a reason not to support the many workers who are being paid a fair wage which could (if shown to be a profitable and sustainable business strategy) encourage other companies to do the same.

I mean, seriously. If we're talking ethics, I'll take a shithead who negatively affects the people in his (granted, expansive) personal circle over sweatshop brands that systematically destroy entire countries every single time.

Heh.

Lefties can be insane, sometimes.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:07 am

Captiv8

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8546
Location: Third Coast

Just seemed a little confusing, is all, but I can see the reasoning behind using AA. We're, like the forum community.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:15 am

Sage FrancisSelf Fighteous

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21671

It's sort of like talk to my mom though. No matter how many times we have the same discussion, I know we'll have to have the same exact one the next time we talk.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:19 am

redball

Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6878
Location: Northern New Jersey

firefly wrote: "We're"? Does this forum have one mind for everyone? That's funny.

I'm a little surprised by the AA shirts too. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who is disappointed by that move.

It's too bad cause I like the shirts.

The question posed was whether "we are" against AA as a forum. We, which I take to mean groupthink, are not. There are plenty of people on this forum that look at AA and all the work Bernard did in exposing their wrongs but have taken the stance that they are still a substantially better source for shirts in bulk than many others. Remember that it is easier not to have consensus than it is to have it. We do not have a consensus definitively against AA on this forum.

Perhaps you'll recall this thread. Honestly, I don't think it gets much clearer than as Bernard put it. It isn't a conflicting statement to print using AA shirts, even for him.

Enough about it, though. If you want to know more search "American AND Apparel" using the search function. Read all of that. From there, whether you buy one of these shirts or not is a personal choice. If that's the only reason you have to not buy the shirt then I will personally chalk it up as your loss.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:20 am

firefly

Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal

MessiahCarey wrote: I don't know that his personal behaviours, while troubling and certainly something he should be shamed for, are enough of a reason not to support the many workers who are being paid a fair wage which could (if shown to be a profitable and sustainable business strategy) encourage other companies to do the same.

I mean, seriously. If we're talking ethics, I'll take a shithead who negatively affects the people in his (granted, expansive) personal circle over sweatshop brands that systematically destroy entire countries every single time.

Heh.

Lefties can be insane, sometimes.

One's personal behaviour should remain personal and should not seep out into his work environment (i,e, his staff who he sexually harassed) or in the advertising. Their ads are still just as sexist and disgusting as they've ever been and I think that that is a bad example for how a company should portray their products.

And by lefty are you referring to me? I would hope that you'd know me better then to pigeon hole me in a category like that.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:27 am

Captiv8

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8546
Location: Third Coast

Thusly you have exposed the sensitive limitations of internet posting. While you have interpreted "we're" to suggest a collective decision against AA, I meant "we're" very tongue in cheek. I have an AA shirt in my closet, and don't think that it's ethically or morally wrong to support that company. Irony is hard to convey in this medium, unless you actually know the person, and even then it's hard to detect.

There is, however, a kind of galvanization that occurs in a community such as this one where such issues are concerned, and whether that's right or wrong or completely neutral is still up for debate. I've been around the forum block long enough to know what the deal is on most things, and I wouldn't for a second believe that the good folks who post here are unanimous in most issues. Quit talking to me like I'm travadone.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:31 am

Sage FrancisSelf Fighteous

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21671

Personally, I don't like how loose and soft the AA fabric is. I prefer the more stiff, thick cotton because it doesn't cling so much to my fat. Personal preference, boyyyyyyy.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:34 am

firefly

Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 3990
Location: Montreal

redball wrote: The question posed was whether "we are" against AA as a forum. We, which I take to mean groupthink, are not. There are plenty of people on this forum that look at AA and all the work Bernard did in exposing their wrongs but have taken the stance that they are still a substantially better source for shirts in bulk than many others. Remember that it is easier not to have consensus than it is to have it. We do not have a consensus definitively against AA on this forum.

I got ya. The "we" thing sounded very conformist and exclusive is all. But yes, I see what you mean. I just don't like when people do only what the group does or looks to the group to know what to think about a subject. You know, like church.

And Captiv8, I was referring to Redball so take it easy. I see now that you were being sarcastic.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:38 am

Captiv8

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8546
Location: Third Coast

Sage Francis wrote: Personally, I don't like how loose and soft the AA fabric is. I prefer the more stiff, thick cotton because it doesn't cling so much to my fat. Personal preference, boyyyyyyy.

I feel you and your lovable jelly rolls.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:40 am

MessiahCarey

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924

firefly wrote:

MessiahCarey wrote: I don't know that his personal behaviours, while troubling and certainly something he should be shamed for, are enough of a reason not to support the many workers who are being paid a fair wage which could (if shown to be a profitable and sustainable business strategy) encourage other companies to do the same.

I mean, seriously. If we're talking ethics, I'll take a shithead who negatively affects the people in his (granted, expansive) personal circle over sweatshop brands that systematically destroy entire countries every single time.

Heh.

Lefties can be insane, sometimes.

One's personal behaviour should remain personal and should not seep out into his work environment (i,e, his staff who he sexually harassed) or in the advertising. Their ads are still just as sexist and disgusting as they've ever been and I think that that is a bad example for how a company should portray their products.

And by lefty are you referring to me? I would hope that you'd know me better then to pigeon hole me in a category like that.

Nah, it's not just you. I've had this conversation with others. But generally speaking, yeah, I'd consider you a lefty. You're certainly more of a lefty than a righty, no? Regardless of what you ARE, I've yet to ever see you take a right-leaning position on anything. Don't take it too seriously, man, we can still cause some trouble if I'm ever allowed into Canada again ;-)

Me, on the other hand, I get pegged as a "conservative". I laugh it off, even though some of the most offensive positions ever are attributed to "conservatives". For, me it's the idea that I should be able to have something available to shoot a cop in the face if he tries to shoot me for no good reason that gets me tossed into that camp. Or the thought that the government shouldn't be involved in education.

To the point - the sexism of their ads is, still, slightly questionable. They are sexY ads, to be sure, but I'm not sure that the notion of their ads being sexIST is an open/shut case with me. However, even if we accept it as truth it would mean that they're just like every other clothing company in their class, ever. That's not an excuse - just a point of note because it's their noteriety and sales that make what they're doing in terms of labour policies signficant.

One of the other things that Bernard's research enumerated was some of the shadier unions that are dealt with in the garment industry - unions that companies like AA have done research and taken effort to avoid, while allowing other unions to do their thing with more approval than you're likely to get out of any other garment company. Basically...Dov Charney being a sexist pig (which is not in dispute, like the ads could be) isn't as harmful to as many people as the good that is done by his potentially industry-shaping business plan.

I also believe that convicted sex offenders should be allowed to work in schools. ::shrug::

Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:57 am

redball

Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6878
Location: Northern New Jersey

Sage Francis wrote: Personally, I don't like how loose and soft the AA fabric is. I prefer the more stiff, thick cotton because it doesn't cling so much to my fat. Personal preference, boyyyyyyy.

I share this preference with you. It's why I never wear my knowmore shirt. Even though I think it's a nosweat tee it seems to have the same fit.. It makes me feel like a big fat fatty fat fuck. So if I buy that PFA shirt I should go up a size to avoid the cling but not so with the Escape Artist one?

Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:08 pm

Sage FrancisSelf Fighteous

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21671

I comfortably wear XXL in the Escape Artist t-shirt. Those still seem to have soft fabric though. I'm not sure which company does the thick cotton that I most prefer. Kese could come in and give the low down on that. haha

Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:14 pm

mzehe916

Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 4544
Location: Switzerland

Sage Francis wrote: I comfortably wear XXL in the Escape Artist t-shirt. Those still seem to have soft fabric though. I'm not sure which company does the thick cotton that I most prefer. Kese could come in and give the low down on that. haha

NIIIIIICCCEEEE!! Sage will you post your measurements so I can compare myself to you. I like to think that I'm losing weight, but I just ate the fattest carne asada chimichanga so I feel all fat again. You are wider, I am taller. Tell me what I should order.

And I only dislike AA because their shirts make me feel like I'm in the beginning of my third trimester and I'm trying to look cute and pregnant and male at the same time.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:28 pm

Sage FrancisSelf Fighteous

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21671

How about we make this easy. Let me know where you live. I'll swing by and bring my measuring tape.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:43 pm

MessiahCarey

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924

mze is in Sacramento and redball's from (southern?) Jersey

I don't think you'll make back in shirt sales what you lose in plane tickets.

Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:45 pm

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