On winning DC and its overall importance in the discussion for all-time greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbis

Davis Cup should never have really mattered in the GOAT discussion anyway since it's a team event. If you're talking about the GOAT singles player then you should mainly look at individual results.If some unknown talent came out of some random tiny country (no chance to win DC) and won 20 slams, no one would give a single shit if that player didn't have DC. The fact is, success in DC is largely determined by what country you come from or play for in the first place, which most players haven't had any control over.

I absolutely agree with this. This is one of the weakest eras I have ever seen. After the top 3 ranking, the drop in level is ridiculous. Even if we say top 4 and include Murray into being a great player (which he is), after that its a bunch of player who just can't win anything. And I honestly don't feel like players outside the top 4 are even an outside threat to win big titles. Some of them may have the game to win but the problem is that all these players are so mentally weak. I have never seen a mentally weaker group of players...

OK. And tell me who in Fed era wasnt a mental midget on big events like slams? Thugbandian? Tommy Haas? Hewitt lol? Please remind me who had a chance not a choke and atleast steal 1 slam from Olderer bar Safin and ofc Nadal? No one lol. All chronic chokers. They should kneel to DelPo for using the choke Fed gave him .Fed era players would probably choke back lol.

OK. And tell me who in Fed era wasnt a mental midget on big events like slams? Thugbandian? Tommy Haas? Hewitt lol? Please remind me who had a chance not a choke and atleast steal 1 slam from Olderer bar Safin and ofc Nadal? No one lol. All chronic chokers. They should kneel to DelPo for using the choke Fed gave him .Fed era players would probably choke back lol.

I have always regarded choking as losing a match you were supposed to win. Do you disagree with this view? Because, when Fed was in his prime, his opponents weren't supposed to win very often. Federer was simply the better player and beat his opponents cleanly. Is this still choking to you? And if so, how many of Djokovic' wins last year were due to chokes?

His return to be honest always sucked badly. Tho is even worse now. But his serve is much better then before

I can agree with many things you said in that post but not with that :

- most important : "his serve is much better then before" : no this summer Fed's serve has played a marginal role in his results, in Wimbledon he had approximately the same number of unreturned serves as Djokovic in their match and he had nearly half of Murray's unreturned serves in the final ; in Cincy, his groundgame was very good and played the biggest role in his success although his return was bad. Generally speaking his serve has not declined with time, it's true, sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, but this summer he has not served especially well, in Cincy the surface is quick and his second shots were very good ;

- Fed's return used to be one of the best of the game, not as great as Djokovic's and Murray's, but one of the best on Tour, esp. on first serve one of the very best ones.

I absolutely agree with this. This is one of the weakest eras I have ever seen. After the top 3 ranking, the drop in level is ridiculous. Even if we say top 4 and include Murray into being a great player (which he is), after that its a bunch of player who just can't win anything. And I honestly don't feel like players outside the top 4 are even an outside threat to win big titles. Some of them may have the game to win but the problem is that all these players are so mentally weak. I have never seen a mentally weaker group of players...

I have always regarded choking as losing a match you were supposed to win. Do you disagree with this view? Because, when Fed was in his prime, his opponents weren't supposed to win very often. Federer was simply the better player and beat his opponents cleanly. Is this still choking to you? And if so, how many of Djokovic' wins last year were due to chokes?

No. I admit Federer was for 2 classes better player then the rest in his era. And he didnt choke a lot cause he was confident and he just knew no1 can harm him. But in course of 4 years of his utter domination he had his chokes or bad moments in GS, and really no1 could use that bad play or chances that Fed gave. If those players were so good as some posters says and not chokers and all super talented they would wait moments like that to steal slam from best player, to get all flamed up and pumped up to win, but in reality they just counter choked and played worse.

Now players arent affraid of Federer no more, and by those players i say Nole and Nadal in GS and occasionaly some1 else, but he is being tested and he is getting defeted. I know Olderer isnt same player as before cause of age, but IMHO his lvl of play atm is still better then any prime player in his era. Im sure he would own them again as 31 yo.

No. I admit Federer was for 2 classes better player then the rest in his era. And he didnt choke a lot cause he was confident and he just knew no1 can harm him. But in course of 4 years of his utter domination he had his chokes or bad moments in GS, and really no1 could use that bad play or chances that Fed gave. If those players were so good as some posters says and not chokers and all super talented they would wait moments like that to steal slam from best player, to get all flamed up and pumped up to win, but in reality they just counter choked and played worse.

Now players arent affraid of Federer no more, and by those players i say Nole and Nadal in GS and occasionaly some1 else, but he is being tested and he is getting defeted. I know Olderer isnt same player as before cause of age, but IMHO his lvl of play atm is still better then any prime player in his era. Im sure he would own them again as 31 yo.

I would like you to name what you regard as Federers chokes or bad moments where you feel the opponent ought to have won but choked worse and lost, in slam matches from 2003-2007. I cannot remember these matches myself.

OK. And tell me who in Fed era wasnt a mental midget on big events like slams? Thugbandian? Tommy Haas? Hewitt lol? Please remind me who had a chance not a choke and atleast steal 1 slam from Olderer bar Safin and ofc Nadal? No one lol. All chronic chokers. They should kneel to DelPo for using the choke Fed gave him .Fed era players would probably choke back lol.

Are you sane? Hewitt has bigger balls than apples in my garden. King Leonid would like to see him among his spartans. Lleyton always gave Fed his best, even during US-04 Final. They had few hard slugfests at Wimbledon as well, semi US-05 and so on. You perhaps started watching tennis after 2010 if you dared to call one of the biggest fighters I have ever seen "mental midget".

It never was his fault that he wasn`t good enough. But who is/was/will?

Are you sane? Hewitt has bigger balls than apples in my garden. King Leonid would like to see him among his spartans. Lleyton always gave Fed his best, even during US-04 Final. They had few hard slugfests at Wimbledon as well, semi US-05 and so on. You perhaps started watching tennis after 2010 if you dared to call one of the biggest fighters I have ever seen "mental midget".

It never was his fault that he wasn`t good enough. But who is/was/will?

Please dont be ridicoulus, he being a fighter doesnt mean a crap when he gets double bageled in GS final. He made Fed problems before 2004-2007 Federer peak, at Olderer peak he was irrelevant. He giving Olderer hard times in 2 sets occasionaly doesnt mean its strong era player. He is transitional No. 1 and he will always stay that. I admire Hewitt and i love his game but he being a threat to Fed in his peak is second to none.

Please dont be ridicoulus, he being a fighter doesnt mean a crap when he gets double bageled in GS final. He made Fed problems before 2004-2007 Federer peak, at Olderer peak he was irrelevant. He giving Olderer hard times in 2 sets occasionaly doesnt mean its strong era player. He is transitional No. 1 and he will always stay that. I admire Hewitt and i love his game but he being a threat to Fed in his peak is second to none.

You called Hewitt "midget", put in doubt his fighting spirit and now say that I`m ridiculous? Ok, I got it. No questions anymore.

Please dont be ridicoulus, he being a fighter doesnt mean a crap when he gets double bageled in GS final. He made Fed problems before 2004-2007 Federer peak, at Olderer peak he was irrelevant. He giving Olderer hard times in 2 sets occasionaly doesnt mean its strong era player. He is transitional No. 1 and he will always stay that. I admire Hewitt and i love his game but he being a threat to Fed in his peak is second to none.

you have still not answered Litotes' question about what you said about players in Fed's prime being mental midgets and chokers except Safin, and where you mentioned Hewitt's name among others.

It reminds me of Murray who some time ago had the same kind of comments about Fed's opponents not "daring to oppose" in Fed's prime.

But well Murray has more talent than all of Fed's opponents in his prime imo, except maybe Safin and of course Nadal, but as for the mental ability to oppose Fed, he surely has not shown more abilities than Fed's prime opponents, quite the opposite.

And when Fed played at his best against him, he could only say in the end "he was too good".

OK. And tell me who in Fed era wasnt a mental midget on big events like slams? Thugbandian? Tommy Haas? Hewitt lol? Please remind me who had a chance not a choke and atleast steal 1 slam from Olderer bar Safin and ofc Nadal? No one lol. All chronic chokers. They should kneel to DelPo for using the choke Fed gave him .Fed era players would probably choke back lol.

Actually DelPo tried to choke back that match: two consecutive double faults to give Fed the third set when serving at *4-5. And Fed still couldn't win the match.

Well tbh Fed served like crap in that final (14 aces, 11 DFs and very low fs %), and choked from 30-0 to close out the second set. Delpo played great from then on, but I'll never understand how Fed lost that match.

__________________8th day of July 2012: 7-time Wimbledon champion!

Once upon a time there was a myth about strong and weak eras. On this glorious day the clownery was eventually unmasked: 30 y.o. past-prime daddy Fed became #1 once again in the supposed strong "Spartan" era with his rivals at their peak.
And they all lived happily ever after.
Long live King Federer!