Improved Natural Attack [General]

Prerequisite

Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

This feat says it increases the natural attack's damage by one size category, but there are 10 sizes, the smallest doesn't count, what means that should be there 9 different damage rolls, not 11.

Then i took a look on Table 5-1 from MM1 and the greatest damage there is 4d6 from a Bite of a Colossal creature, and the Draconomicon shows Bite from Colossal+ as 6d6, the normal progression of 4d6 to 6d6, what means this Table from MM and the Draconomicon do not contradict each other, but gets in conflict with this feat from the MM itself.

The worse part is when i took a look on Colossal+ rules from SRD, that should be the same as the Colossal+ rules from Draconomicon, and i found that their (Colossal+ Dragons) Bite deals 8d6.

Put simply:

1)A table from MM1 contradicts with a feat from itself;2)This table from MM1 contradicts with Colossal+ rules from SRD;3)This table from MM1 does not contradict with Colossal+ rules from Draconomicon;4)Colossal+ rules from Draconomicon contradicts with the same things as the table from MM1.

If there's no contradiction here, then there's a few size categories missing, or i'm REALLY wrong and i'd like you guys help me figure out it.

the problem here is that the monk progecion are out of the normal rules, but if you take the 2d10 as base the damage will be 12 d 8 as saying MrCustomer based in the increase damage of 1d20 to many of d6 in each case and of 2d10 to d8 then is the same that the 1d20 but with D8 instead of d6.

and if you gain improved natural weapon maybe you can change it to 14 d 8

Sorry for the double posting, but i committed a lot of mistakes in the previous post, i just took a look on the FAQ and then on page 28 from Dungeon Master's Guide and then i got i wanted since the beginning!

The only thing missing is the increasing damage for Colossal+ size, but like Oma012 told it must be something like 14d8.

I still don't find (i bet it doesn't even exist) Unarmed Damage for Colossal+ Monks (even for non-Monks too, since the only oficial Colossal+ damage presented to us is about Natural Attacks from Dragons).

The biggest oficial damage of this kind in 3.5 is 12d8, by logical the next step should be something like 14d8 or 16d8, but there's nothing oficial about that, then i took a look on 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide and the only damage rolls there bigger than 12d8 are 16d6 and 24d6.

So i ask you guys, what is YOUR opinion if you had to choose one of those?

1)Colossal+ oficially only works for Natural Attacks so the Unarmed Damage doesn't increase after Colossal (12d8);2)Should be 14d8;3)Should be 16d6;4)Should be 16d8;5)Should be 24d6;

I still don't find (i bet it doesn't even exist) Unarmed Damage for Colossal+ Monks (even for non-Monks too, since the only oficial Colossal+ damage presented to us is about Natural Attacks from Dragons).

The biggest oficial damage of this kind in 3.5 is 12d8, by logical the next step should be something like 14d8 or 16d8, but there's nothing oficial about that, then i took a look on 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide and the only damage rolls there bigger than 12d8 are 16d6 and 24d6.

So i ask you guys, what is YOUR opinion if you had to choose one of those?

1)Colossal+ oficially only works for Natural Attacks so the Unarmed Damage doesn't increase after Colossal (12d8);2)Should be 14d8;3)Should be 16d6;4)Should be 16d8;5)Should be 24d6;

What your opinion guys?

Under the standard progresion you aply 2d8 moreUnarmed Damage work like the Natural attack

Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x. A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth

sorry the UA not are based in zise or weapon progression, check the small, medium and large table and you can see the problem, at last the only we can do is take the last damage and apply the size progression that do a total of 12d8 for a Colossal Monk Level 20

Under the standard progresion you aply 2d8 moreUnarmed Damage work like the Natural attack

But after 8d8 you go directly to 12d8 (take a look: www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#impr...), what means you applied 4d8 more this time, so maybe a Colossal+ is 16d8 instead of 14d8, or is 16d6 or 24d6 like pointed out by Arms & Equipment Guide (the only two oficially bigger damage dice rolls after 12d8, but they're 3.0), or maybe Colossal+ just affect Natural Attacks, not Unarmed (and other kinds of) Attacks.

Under the standard progresion you aply 2d8 moreUnarmed Damage work like the Natural attack

But after 8d8 you go directly to 12d8 (take a look: www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#impr...), what means you applied 4d8 more this time, so maybe a Colossal+ is 16d8 instead of 14d8, or is 16d6 or 24d6 like pointed out by Arms & Equipment Guide (the only two oficially bigger damage dice rolls after 12d8, but they're 3.0), or maybe Colossal+ just affect Natural Attacks, not Unarmed (and other kinds of) Attacks.

Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x. A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth

sorry the UA not are based in zise or weapon progression, check the small, medium and large table and you can see the problem, at last the only we can do is take the last damage and apply the size progression that do a total of 12d8 for a Colossal Monk Level 20

You are incorrect.The relationship between sizes is strictly following the normal size increase tables when moving from Medium to Large.

The increase from Small to Medium is not, but that's an outlier, and we can assume the Tiny to small would be similarly biased, because the relationship of medium to large is very, very clear.

At sizes after Large, just take the appropriate size of damage from the Size L monk table, and increase it according to the sizing rules. basically, the damage should double every two size increases, and increase approx 50% from the size before.

This progression is why getting Big is one of the key ways to outperform a fighter in combat.

Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x. A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth

sorry the UA not are based in zise or weapon progression, check the small, medium and large table and you can see the problem, at last the only we can do is take the last damage and apply the size progression that do a total of 12d8 for a Colossal Monk Level 20

You are incorrect.The relationship between sizes is strictly following the normal size increase tables when moving from Medium to Large.

The increase from Small to Medium is not, but that's an outlier, and we can assume the Tiny to small would be similarly biased, because the relationship of medium to large is very, very clear.

At sizes after Large, just take the appropriate size of damage from the Size L monk table, and increase it according to the sizing rules. basically, the damage should double every two size increases, and increase approx 50% from the size before.

This progression is why getting Big is one of the key ways to outperform a fighter in combat.

==Aelryinth

sorry if dont apply from small , medium, large and so then this dont work like the weapon or size progression

as you say this dont work in small the the monk damage progression don't work like others progressions