And the worst of it, Seniorita, was that he did that first triple axel beautifully, as I recall, so one thought that he was out of the woods. But that makes his lovely long program even more impressive. He was skating just for pride at that point, and notice how many of us count that as our favorite program of the five.

I'm wondering whether you experts on this site have anything to say about the Canadian tradition of teaching skating. I've noticed that, especially in men and pairs, Canadians seem to have an extra smoothness in their skating. Even skaters who don't end up at the top of things, for example Hough and Ladret, seem to have an extra snap to their quality of movement. Is it an ankles-down thing, or an ankles-up thing? Is it soft knees? Or is it just coincidence? I'm thinking particularly of Orser, Browning, Patrick Chan, Underhill/Martini, and Sale/Pelletier. (Not Stojko, though. Impressive as his jumps are, his bladework is just utilitarian to me.) Is there a special approach to teaching that Canadian coaches take? Russians certainly have had some trademark qualities--the use of dance, the endless practicing of just stroking around the rink--but does Canada have anything characteristic that we know about?

When Evan finished I did not expect his program to be good enough for the gold. Everyone else in the final flight just skated alot worse than I expected them to. So I agree he was skating for a medal and not gold with that performance, but that was just how things turned out.

I dont think Shizuka was skating for the gold with her 2006 performance either.

I did wonder that Shizuka did not do a triple-triple combination, but otherwise she was amazing, IMO. Both she and Evan skated as well as they could under the circumstances.

I did not expect Evan to do a quad, since I had heard about his injury. I have understood that in Vancouver Evan skated as well in practices and in competition. Besides, he skated his whole programme the way it was in competition, too. I saw Evan´s freeskate on tv live and felt very happy for his wonderful performance. The live audience shared my opinion, LOL. I thought though that the judges will just favour the reigning Olympic champion. I was surprised that Plushenko had so many difficulties in jumping, but I still thought that he will be put as a winner. It was a wonderful surprise for me that Evan won after all... He sure deserved it, IMO.

He didn't do a quad to win the world championship - everyone knows it doesn't pay to do quads anymore but rather load up on jumps after the halfway point. Also it takes a long time to set up a quad so you can get some tranistion marks going into a triple for which it takes less time to set up.

gmeyers, you always write the same thing. If Plushenko's jumps had been a little more "easy" on the eye (not rotating out of the circle, soft flowing landings, not looking like he was going to splat on impact) he would have won.

gmeyers, you always write the same thing. If Plushenko's jumps had been a little more "easy" on the eye (not rotating out of the circle, soft flowing landings, not looking like he was going to splat on impact) he would have won.

THANK-YOU

The thing Plushenko could've done to win? Land his jumps better than he did. That would've made the difference (seriously). No one argues Lambiel (who had two fully rotated quads, one in combination) should've beat Lysacek (oh, and Lambiel had higher level footwork for one of them as well, and better overall PCS) because Lambiel didn't earn the GOEs on his elements.

I agree, Pogue. Especially when you look at the closeness of the top two scores, you can see that Plushy would have won if he had skated at his personal best. It wasn't just the front-loading of the program but the not-quite-thereness of his jumps and the inferior spins that held him back and gave Evan his chance. No one in the judges' seats was implying that Plushenko is a lesser skater than Lysacek. The judges were evaluating his performance of that evening, and I think they called it right.

As for the statement about how no one's going to do quads anymore because skaters can win just by back-loading the program and skating to the math, I wouldn't worry about that. A lot of skaters, like a lot of other athletes, are risk-takers by nature. (This applies to women as well as men.) They don't just want to win comfortably. They want to excel and set records. They take pride in being the avant-garde in their sport. Stojko didn't have to execute quad-triples to win, but he had to do them to be Stojko. I think Plushenko is the same way. One of the few live skating competitions I ever saw was I think a Campbell's competition. It verged on the cheescake and certainly didn't affect the skaters' rankings. And yet, Plushenko skated a quad. It's that quality of his that makes me admire him even though he'll never be my favorite skater. He has to give his all. I doubt he's the only one who thinks like that. Look at Takahashi.

I agree, Pogue. Especially when you look at the closeness of the top two scores, you can see that Plushy would have won if he had skated at his personal best. It wasn't just the front-loading of the program but the not-quite-thereness of his jumps and the inferior spins that held him back and gave Evan his chance. No one in the judges' seats was implying that Plushenko is a lesser skater than Lysacek. The judges were evaluating his performance of that evening, and I think they called it right.

As for the statement about how no one's going to do quads anymore because skaters can win just by back-loading the program and skating to the math, I wouldn't worry about that. A lot of skaters, like a lot of other athletes, are risk-takers by nature. (This applies to women as well as men.) They don't just want to win comfortably. They want to excel and set records. They take pride in being the avant-garde in their sport. Stojko didn't have to execute quad-triples to win, but he had to do them to be Stojko. I think Plushenko is the same way. One of the few live skating competitions I ever saw was I think a Campbell's competition. It verged on the cheescake and certainly didn't affect the skaters' rankings. And yet, Plushenko skated a quad. It's that quality of his that makes me admire him even though he'll never be my favorite skater. He has to give his all. I doubt he's the only one who thinks like that. Look at Takahashi.

But you have the people who think that backloading a program is equal to doing a quad. That is what i always read. "Who cares if Plushenko did a quad Lysacek was backloaded!" Backloading is the new quad LOL!!! Which is the truth and why winners don't do world champs don't do them anymore. Even Joubert was beaten by Chan for silver at worlds. Joubert did three quads.

The thing Plushenko could've done to win? Land his jumps better than he did. That would've made the difference (seriously). No one argues Lambiel (who had two fully rotated quads, one in combination) should've beat Lysacek (oh, and Lambiel had higher level footwork for one of them as well, and better overall PCS) because Lambiel didn't earn the GOEs on his elements.

He had no triple axel - I don't think Lambiel really counts. He had do quads and poor quads at that because he had no triple axel.

Takahashi also moved from doing a quad toe to a quad flip because he could fail on the flip and get more points for a triple flip than he wold on the quad toe.

But you have the people who think that backloading a program is equal to doing a quad. That is what i always read. "Who cares if Plushenko did a quad Lysacek was backloaded!" Backloading is the new quad LOL!!! Which is the truth and why winners don't do world champs don't do them anymore. Even Joubert was beaten by Chan for silver at worlds. Joubert did three quads.

like with most sports - it's all about strategy. That Plushenko did not up his program to gain the most points this time around is no one's fault BUT his.

I did wonder that Shizuka did not do a triple-triple combination, but otherwise she was amazing, IMO. Both she and Evan skated as well as they could under the circumstances.

I did not expect Evan to do a quad, since I had heard about his injury. I have understood that in Vancouver Evan skated as well in practices and in competition. Besides, he skated his whole programme the way it was in competition, too. I saw Evan´s freeskate on tv live and felt very happy for his wonderful performance. The live audience shared my opinion, LOL. I thought though that the judges will just favour the reigning Olympic champion. I was surprised that Plushenko had so many difficulties in jumping, but I still thought that he will be put as a winner. It was a wonderful surprise for me that Evan won after all... He sure deserved it, IMO.

Takahashi anywhere near his best (eg- skating like he did at Worlds) was certainly better than Evan's Olympic LP. And after his SP I expected a better performance for him than he did. And Plushenko's Olympic LP was actually his worst performance of the season, with shaky landings on almost every jumps he did which is very unusual for him. I agreed I expected him to be overscored, and that combined with doing jumps how he normally does them would have easily pushed him over Evan's skate but he didnt. Lambiel and Oda were worse than I expected too, though I didnt expect Lambiel to skate clean or for either to win, especialy being 6 points back after the short.

Evan skated well but I have seen him skate better many times, even without a quad. It was still a very good perforamnce but I didnt expect him to win with that skate after it finished at all. And I doubt he expected it either, which is why I agree he looked like he was skating to secure a medal rather than to win. It just turned out the final flight was much worse than expected.

like with most sports - it's all about strategy. That Plushenko did not up his program to gain the most points this time around is no one's fault BUT his.

I agree. I am so sick of Plushenko in general anyway. I wish he would just retire. Even if he had skated a bit better or tweaked one small thing about his program and won it wouldnt change that his skating no longer inspires anyone, and he is a much weaker skater than he was in his prime after age and injuries. He is not gaining anything by continuing other than creating a more negative perception towards him rather than leaving when he was still at or near the top of his game, and he is risking permenent damage to an already damaged body.

like with most sports - it's all about strategy. That Plushenko did not up his program to gain the most points this time around is no one's fault BUT his.

It's too bad he probably wont compete again at a major international event (if he ever does compete again) would be the 2014 Olympics because then people would see if he learned anything from his 2010 Olympic experience. Would he not do a quad anymore or just one non-combo quad or would he try a triple axel after the halfway point? Who knows?

Plushenko had no step outs, no two foot landings, no underrotations, no hand downs - what do you mean land the jumps better?

Two of his jumps were noticeably off and had difficult landings. He had negative GOE on his first 3A and got base value for his 3-2. Additionally, his landing on his 4-3 wasn't secure enough to add his double loop (which he intended, if you look at the scores as posted here. Had he landed more securely, with better flow out of his jumps, he likely would've garnered the 1.36 points necessary to win (if you look at his best jump GOES, this is true). Landing better doesn't mean "not making the really obvious mistakes," in this case.

Originally Posted by gmyers

But you have the people who think that backloading a program is equal to doing a quad. That is what i always read. "Who cares if Plushenko did a quad Lysacek was backloaded!" Backloading is the new quad LOL!!! Which is the truth and why winners don't do world champs don't do them anymore. Even Joubert was beaten by Chan for silver at worlds. Joubert did three quads.

Your premise is flawed because you're arguing from the assertion that everything else was equal, which in the case of Joubert vs Chan, is most emphatically not. In 2009, Joubert fell and had a bad landing on another jump. In 2010, he had VERY low level footwork and spins (not just low in general, but specifically for Joubert), very shaky landings on several of his jumps, and also fell (so did Chan, I know).

In the case of Lysacek vs Plushenko, Lysacek had cleaner jumps (as exemplified by the GOES), better footwork (as exemplified by the GOES), cleaner spins (GOE), harder spins (base value) and harder footwork, harder transitions (and Plushenko was probably given more credit than he deserved here as well) on top of the backloading. If any single one (or two) of those things were missing, he would have lost. So it's not fair to lay down the blame/credit at a single area (as you're doing with the whole "backloading vs quad" debate)

Originally Posted by gmyers

He had no triple axel - I don't think Lambiel really counts. He had do quads and poor quads at that because he had no triple axel.

Takahashi also moved from doing a quad toe to a quad flip because he could fail on the flip and get more points for a triple flip than he wold on the quad toe.

Exactly. Lambiel, despite having two quads, beautiful choreography, the best spins, great footwork, a backloaded program, a three jump combination, and generally high PCS, lost because he lost marks elsewhere. No triple axel. Very low GOES on his jumps. In fact, compare the base value of his jumps to Plushenko's. LAMBIEL'S WAS HIGHER!!!!!!! But jump GOEs? Plushenko got 4.4. Lambiel got -3.72 (eight point difference). So, with two programs with the same jump value content (and the backloading gave Lambiel a 0.7 point advantage, so they were very close. Plushenko suffered by doing a double Axel instead of a triple flip, for example) we see Lambiel losing out considerably not because he's missing a triple axel (though that's true) but because the jumps that he did rotate/land he didn't do with high quality.

So essentially, breaking it down, backloading's not the new quad (aka: the way to win). The new quad is backloading your program, improving quality on all elements (spins, footwork, and jumps), improving your transitions and having harder elements outside of the jumps. I can live with that. Why does it bug you?

Also, about Takahashi, he'd get more points for a UR-quad flip with a fall than a UR-quad toe with a fall. True. The quad flip is a harder jump. But I'm not sure what you're actually saying there.