Apparently the "Total Value Promise" GM keeps plugging on its commercials isnt registering with customers who are used to a rebate based sales structure. If it wasnt so vague it might help... but the truth is Total Value Promise just ends up coming out like another marketing buzzword... Its so bad, that apparently some GM models already ARE priced lower than their 2005 Employee Prices, but customers dont even know it.

Man... this is why I do NOT buy new cars... so much gimmicky BS.

http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103683

thu

12-05-05, 10:52 PM

Exactly. Also, GM cars depreciate sooooo fast, you better get out of the way or it will flatten you to a pancake. LOL.

However, I hear they don't depreciate as fast as a VW Phaeton.

Playdrv4me

12-05-05, 10:58 PM

Man... I dont think anything depreciates as fast as a Phaeton. HarryCTSV, one of our Germany members, said that VW is offloading them at 30-40 percent off MSRP... thats crazy.

Still... they are the best deal ever for such a beautiful car with such high quality craftsmanship.

ben72227

12-05-05, 11:28 PM

Well, its simple. As much marketing as they do or whatever, consumers don't really care about that stuff in the long term. I mean, today's consumer wants three simple things in a car: efficiency, reliability, and comfort.

GM is hit and miss when it comes to this - the Corvette, is a hot car, with a great engine, and is very good looking. It's a hit. But, I mean, cars like the Cavalier, Aveo, etc. (cars that NORMAL people can afford) - they just aren't anything special. And while Honda/Toyota always had great cars, they're a bit pricy (most of them sell at list price), which kept GM somewhat in the game.

But now that you have brands like Hyundai coming up with cheap cars, great warranties, and I mean, Hyundais just KEEP GETTING BETTER. I mean, its a phenomena almost... I mean, you can get a Sonata LX for $22,000

and you get heated leather seats, automatic temperature control, a all-the-way around airbags, a DOHC V6 with a 5-speed auto, ESC and traction control, power everything, all disc brakes...and it goes on. PLUS THEY HAVE THE BEST WARRANTY EVER!

I mean, the Sonata is almost as good as the CTS, and a HELL of a lot cheaper. I mean, what does GM have to compete? The G6? with a pushrod engine? and drum brakes? It's no wonder people aren't liking GM.

Their cars that cost more than $30,000 seem to be fine. But if you want a bread and butter car, you had better think long and hard about getting a GM...

Stoneage_Caddy

12-06-05, 12:52 AM

Well, its simple. As much marketing as they do or whatever, consumers don't really care about that stuff in the long term. I mean, today's consumer wants three simple things in a car: efficiency, reliability, and comfort.

GM is hit and miss when it comes to this - the Corvette, is a hot car, with a great engine, and is very good looking. It's a hit. But, I mean, cars like the Cavalier, Aveo, etc. (cars that NORMAL people can afford) - they just aren't anything special. And while Honda/Toyota always had great cars, they're a bit pricy (most of them sell at list price), which kept GM somewhat in the game.

But now that you have brands like Hyundai coming up with cheap cars, great warranties, and I mean, Hyundais just KEEP GETTING BETTER. I mean, its a phenomena almost... I mean, you can get a Sonata LX for $22,000

and you get heated leather seats, automatic temperature control, a all-the-way around airbags, a DOHC V6 with a 5-speed auto, ESC and traction control, power everything, all disc brakes...and it goes on. PLUS THEY HAVE THE BEST WARRANTY EVER!

I mean, the Sonata is almost as good as the CTS, and a HELL of a lot cheaper. I mean, what does GM have to compete? The G6? with a pushrod engine? and drum brakes? It's no wonder people aren't liking GM.

Their cars that cost more than $30,000 seem to be fine. But if you want a bread and butter car, you had better think long and hard about getting a GM...
Truth is like i said before , average joe schmuck car buyer thats buying a driveway filler doesnt care if it has drum brakes or extra parts to open a valve

all he cares about is does it stop? does it go? Gas milage? warranty? finace rate? and "does it ride nice? ...i guess they care about how it looks too ...doesnt explain how there selling corollas and matrixses tho , what ugly little cars....

part of the problem is GM is selling "espilsons" isnated of "malibus"....i still think haveing to use a "platform" thats to be shared with many divisions going after many markets takes the flavor right out of the pie before you even get done laying the crust ....

ford will be lucky to pull off "Fusion, Milan,Zephyr" let alone Gm pulling off "BLS,93,G6,Malibu,Malibu Maxx,signum,vectra,aura"

what does the sonata have to be ? a sonata ...

ben72227

12-06-05, 08:22 PM

Truth is like i said before , average joe schmuck car buyer thats buying a driveway filler doesnt care if it has drum brakes or extra parts to open a valve

That may have been true in 1985, but fast foward 20 years, and people are more aware - they want reliablity, and they know from past cars, that American cars just weren't reliable. Their friends told them about this great Honda car they have, so they got one - kept it for 200,000 miles with no problems, and realized that GM wasn't what their next car purchase would be.
It's all about brand loyalty, and although they may not care about the brakes per se, they DO care about the engines. I mean, anything that has a VTEC sticker on it gets praised by the masses...and for good reason too...:thumbsup:

And you may say that's not true...but if it weren't, then there's no way a Camry would have ever become the number one car in America. I mean, we're the only western country where a domestic isn't the number one...And it says loads about the American auto industry and, more specifically, their products...

I~LUV~Caddys8792

12-06-05, 09:32 PM

I mean, the Sonata is almost as good as the CTS

No offence, but how can you even compare the two????

One is a FWD family sedan and one is a RWD sport sedan.
I guess both of the DOHC V6's make similar power, but thats about it.

ben72227

12-06-05, 09:58 PM

I was comparing their standard features...You can't get a GM car for $22,000 with that many features(auto climate control, heated leather seats, full safety features - ALL STANDARD) - the next best thing would be the CTS, which has similar standard features, yet it costs $10,000 more...:rolleyes:

I~LUV~Caddys8792

12-06-05, 10:22 PM

oh true yes, what about a Grand Prix GXP, or Lucerne?

ben72227

12-06-05, 10:31 PM

Maybe, but they both have pushrod engines...So, the next best thing would be the CTS:thumbsup: I mean, MAYBE one of the cheaper Lucernes, but still...

ewill3rd

12-07-05, 08:18 AM

Ask the UAW why a domestic car costs $35,000 and a Hyundai costs $22,000 and get back to us. American workers want to get paid in an hour (including benefits) what most other countries pay for a day's work (speculation.. and probably not far off).

As for the 80's, having had to work on almost every car that was built in that decade I can tell you that no manufacturer was far and above any other, they were all building junk. From my perspective I can't think of many car companies wouldn't like to take away the lessons they learned from the 80's without having to have actually lived through it. What a nightmare.
Yes it was the time period that seemed best for the Asian imports, but it's more like "this model car didn't SUCK as much as the others".
It was a learning period for the automotive industry and what we got on the other side were some major improvements, all accross the board.

I really don't care about all this junk people talk about when they praise foreign cars, when I get in an American built car and close the door, I feel like I am in a car, not a little tin box. Just the "feel" of the cars is my problem. It's been a while since I sat in an import but I am kind of a big guy and back in the day.... they didn't seat me very comfortably.

RobertCTS

12-07-05, 08:29 AM

Exactly. Also, GM cars depreciate sooooo fast, you better get out of the way or it will flatten you to a pancake. LOL.

However, I hear they don't depreciate as fast as a VW Phaeton.

True for the most part. But my '72 Corvette is worth 5 times what it sold for new. Firebirds and Camaro are doing well in excellent condition. Same with all the Super and Pony cars.

ewill3rd

12-07-05, 09:17 AM

Maybe someone can explain to me what difference it makes what your car is worth unless you are trying to sell it?
I mean any car loses a couple grand as soon as you turn the key and drive away from the dealership, but so what? I mean are you going to try to sell it when you get home? If it's worth 80,000 or 50 bucks why does it matter if it starts, does what you want and gets you where you need to go and back home?

Now before you guys kill me, for special instances it does make sense, if you are one of those guys who buys a new one every 2 years, sure you want it to keep it's value and something like that I might understand. Maybe I am one of those wierdos that keeps his car for 10 years and then moves on to another one that I like.

I am not looking to flame anybody, just wondering why everyone is so obsessed with the "value" of their car. It's only worth what someone else will pay for it... if it's not for sale... ?

ben72227

12-07-05, 09:13 PM

Ask the UAW why a domestic car costs $35,000 and a Hyundai costs $22,000 and get back to us. American workers want to get paid in an hour (including benefits) what most other countries pay for a day's work (speculation.. and probably not far off).

As for the 80's, having had to work on almost every car that was built in that decade I can tell you that no manufacturer was far and above any other, they were all building junk. From my perspective I can't think of many car companies wouldn't like to take away the lessons they learned from the 80's without having to have actually lived through it. What a nightmare.
Yes it was the time period that seemed best for the Asian imports, but it's more like "this model car didn't SUCK as much as the others".
It was a learning period for the automotive industry and what we got on the other side were some major improvements, all accross the board.

I really don't care about all this junk people talk about when they praise foreign cars, when I get in an American built car and close the door, I feel like I am in a car, not a little tin box. Just the "feel" of the cars is my problem. It's been a while since I sat in an import but I am kind of a big guy and back in the day.... they didn't seat me very comfortably.

Hey kid, it's 2005 - Hyundais ARE American cars. They're built in Alabama, BY AMERICANS - Americans who aren't bitchy, whiny, lazy ass, moron UAW workers who get paid what a HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE should get paid, not some UAW employee that gets paid $25 and hour to screw a bolt in. Some of those UAW workers get paid six-figure salaries, which is pitiful.

"Tin box"??? What a joke. When I get in a Chevy Cavalier, I feel like I'm in a mobile coffin, which makes sense, since it, like most American cars, barely passed the safety standards test. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. on the other hand, are MUCH safer than most modern American cars. Like the Sonata - which comes with airbags all the way around, traction control, and stability control. Try getting all of that STANDARD in a G6...Not likely...

ewill3rd

12-07-05, 09:30 PM

:worship:
Forgive me oh great one... I didn't realize that your's was the only correct opinion....

I thought this was a Cadillac Forum, so why the constant reference to Cavalier and G6? Those are J cars and Z cars and are built by CHEVROLET anb PONTIAC. About the cheapest things you can buy from GM to begin with. (next to Aveo) Maybe it's a reference to "similarly priced vehicles" in which case I could at least understand your reference.
I get that you are talking about GM cars so please don't start on that rant.
I am talking more specifically about Cadillac.
Maybe you should spend more time on the Hyundai forums, but then I guess you wouldn't have a reason to complain. Incidentally I used to work for a Hyundai dealer and I do think they have some nice products, I just PREFER GM cars and trucks. Sue me.

BTW, recent press releases tallied up the wages of your average UAW worker and with benefits it's closer to $65 an hour.
I am not sure what you point is there except to try to start an argument with me, but I don't really care. Be right all you want.
There's my opinion, take it or leave it.

Buy a GM car, don't buy a GM car, I am not telling you what to do, just offering a point of view. Sorry you seem to have a problem with that.

pimpin88

12-07-05, 10:05 PM

ben72227,

just wondered why you are so against pushrod engines, it seems like in a lot of threads dealing with gm and other brands you say that gm is behind, needs to update, etc.

ben72227

12-07-05, 10:27 PM

Because they do need to update. It's one thing to have an LS7 pushrod, but the everyday 3500/3900s just aren't anything to get excited about...And it's not just their engines, its other stuff too, like using drum brakes instead of disc brakes, having the infamous RUBBERMAID interiors, etc.

I mean, yeah, we can expect Japan to be a bit ahead of GM, but now FORD is ahead of GM. I mean, check out that new Ford Fusion, the top of the line SEL V6 is about $22,000, with heated leather seats, auto climate control and a SIX SPEED AUTO on a DOHC V6. Now, if FORD can do it, GM has no excuse...;)

Forgive me oh great one... I didn't realize that your's was the only correct opinion....

Well, it happens sometimes. Now you know...

I thought this was a Cadillac Forum, so why the constant reference to Cavalier and G6? Those are J cars and Z cars and are built by CHEVROLET anb PONTIAC. About the cheapest things you can buy from GM to begin with. (next to Aveo) Maybe it's a reference to "similarly priced vehicles" in which case I could at least understand your reference.

Because YOU made the comment about those Jap "tin cans", which just isn't true. Jap cars have been safer than most american cars for a while (i'm talking about bread and butter cars here...). I mean, your civic is safer than your cavalier, etc. And the G6 is NOT GM's cheapest model by a long shot. It's about $25,000 if you want the nicest model...Cobalts, Malibus, etc. are all cheaper...And the reference was referring to similarly-priced vehicles, BTY...

I just PREFER GM cars and trucks. Sue me.

I have no problem with that at all, I like SOME GM products, which is why I own one. What bugs me is people who think GM is the best and that Jap cars are just little "tin cans."

BTW, recent press releases tallied up the wages of your average UAW worker and with benefits it's closer to $65 an hour.

Which is even more disgusting. Unions are the devil...

Buy a GM car, don't buy a GM car, I am not telling you what to do, just offering a point of view. Sorry you seem to have a problem with that.

I have no problem with your point of view, as I understand it. But next time, don't be so biased against anything that ISN'T American. You know, those "tin box". Surely you're smarter than that...

I~LUV~Caddys8792

12-07-05, 10:38 PM

Oh god hes gonna start it again..........:hide:

ben72227

12-07-05, 10:41 PM

Oh god hes gonna start it again..........:hide:

No, I'm not. You know how it is though, its fun to do that every once in awhile...keeps things "interesting" around here...:thumbsup:

1enthusiast

12-07-05, 10:58 PM

:worship:
Forgive me oh great one... I didn't realize that your's was the only correct opinion....

BTW, recent press releases tallied up the wages of your average UAW worker and with benefits it's closer to $65 an hour.
I am not sure what you point is there except to try to start an argument with me, but I don't really care. Be right all you want.
There's my opinion, take it or leave it.

Buy a GM car, don't buy a GM car, I am not telling you what to do, just offering a point of view. Sorry you seem to have a problem with that.

Ben 72227 may not have the only correct opinion, but he certainly has his facts straight.

With a UAW employee, he could be putting wheels on a Cobalt all day, stamping fenders for a Grand Prix all day, or running wire harnesses on the CTS all day.... no matter what the case is, he getting paid very well for it. Too well. And it stems from the union strong holds in the 1930's that GM (Ford and DCX for that matter as well) never stood up to. By the time the 1970's came around, you had floor sweepers making $25.00/hr (in the 70's!!!), dudes coming to work totally drunk, and pot heads getting stoned on the job..... and the company couldn't do a damn thing about it because the union contracts were so gregariously in favor of the employee, it basically gave them reckless abandon to get a paycheck. 25 years later, GM is still paying for it.

I don't believe in unions. I think some of them may actually be beneficial, but for the most part, they skew the pay scale and decrease final product quality (professional sports unions i.e. Major League Baseball Players Association come to mind anyone?)

My friend's sister works at the Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio. She makes an honest living - i.e. she is divorced with 2 kids and still provides for them and keeps up with the bills. She is not in debt, the kids are in good shape, and you'd never know she spends her day clipping door pannels together on Accords (but she's trained to do alot of other things as well). On the same token, she does not live in a giagantic house, take two months worth of vacation every year, and get a new car every six months. Her retirement is comprised of various investments (401k). She has good medical coverage, but it isn't completely free - she has to pay some just like most of us. Point is, she does not have a college degree, so she can't get a highly skilled job, so she doesn't have perks of a high paying job.... but she still is very happy with her life and her decision to get a job there 15 years ago. Honda keeps the boat steady, in that they always have a good balance between supply and demand. Hence, there is never a need for layoffs. When sales are slow, she can work in other departments (the plant is comprised of so many different operating departments, it's more like a business hub than an assembly plant). She has no desire to join a union as she is respected at work, just like everyone else there. The bosses and employees actually share work on the lines, and the managers aren't afraid to assist or take advice from the line workers - in fact, they encourage it. So long as you perform the tasks you are assigned, and you show up to work on time and ready to go, you are well respected. One more thing, she also has the comfort of knowing that as long as GM and Ford keep making cars like they do today, those Accords will continue to fly off the lots, keeping her employed ;)

brougham

12-07-05, 11:37 PM

No, I'm not. You know how it is though, its fun to do that every once in awhile...keeps things "interesting" around here...:thumbsup:

It doesn't keep things interesting it's just annoying and a lot of people are starting to get tired of this. Just like the other posts this one is being closed too.