After 53 years R D Burman finally gets credit for a song in Pyaasa

LINK
As the end credits of the delightful, visually stunning and life-affirming Road, Movie was rolling at the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF) last September, a journalist thought he detected a typo. A very old song called Sar Jo Tera Chakraye featured in the film was credited to R D Burman, not his father, S D Burman, who composed the original music in Guru Dutt’s Pyaasa.
But the journalist would soon know from the film’s writer and director Dev Benegal [ Images ] that there was no typo.

The fans of R D Burman or Pancham, as he was fondly known, should be rejoicing that 53 years after he composed the tune and 16 years after his death, he finally gets the long due credit — and that too in a film that could be the first sleeper hit of the year.

With an excellent world of mouth, the Benegal road movie could have a long journey. For it is one of those few art films that are very earthy and can touch anyone. The Pancham melody and the accompanying scenes are important to developing the film’s narration.

Pancham’s fans have long suspected that the feisty tune composed by him was fine-tuned by his father. In fact, it was one of the dozen songs — according to Pancham’s wife Asha Bhosle [ Images ] and friends — that he composed for the father which received the latter’s own touch and embellishments. ‘Pancham was too shy to ask for the credit and it did not strike Dada (S D Burman) to give Pancham the credit,’ Asha had said in an interview many years ago.

Johnny Walker sings Sar Jo Tera Chakraye in PyaasaSadly, no one associated with the classic song is alive now — not S D Burman, not the lyricist (Sahir Ludhianvi [ Images ]), not the singer (Mohammed Rafi [ Images ]), nor the film’s iconic director-producer (Guru Dutt). Even Burman’s assistants like the composer Suhrid Kar have passed away.

Dev Benegal was born three years after Pyaasa was released in 1957. He uses the song extremely well to enhance one of the story strands in Road, Movie.

‘It is such an iconic song and it is, in fact, like a character in my film,’ Benegal said in an interview at the TIFF. ‘I grew up listening to the song for many years.’ He added that he had heard long ago that it was actually a Pancham composition. He liked the energy in the song that would later become a characteristic of Pancham’s music.

So Benegal called the producer’s son Arun Dutt, who distinctly remembered his father saying that it was indeed an R D Burman composition. The filmmaker had no problem getting the permission to use the song and footage from the classic movie. The rest is an act of restoration of credit.

The kind of work he did then would have been great for this generation! RD would have loved to ‘tinker’ with technology. He was way ahead of his time. His songs’ countless remixes are a testament to this.

Not at all. Fortunately there are still a number of musicians alive and they will tell you that you are wrong. Even Shakti Samanta, the producer-director of the movie has said in his interviews that all the songs of Aradhana are by SD Burman.

The reason is that SDB tried hard to promote his son. He refused movies which went to his son and even after that he was pained that RDB was not succeeding. So he saw to it that his son’s name appears as an assistant on the jacket. He even told Majrooh to talk to directors.

Can Shakti Samanta’s grand son know more than his grand father, and the assistants of both SDB and RDB who were common? How old was he in 1969, or a year earlier when the songs were recorded?

I will give you as many proofs as you like to have:
(1) During birth centenary celebrations of SDB in 2006, Mr HQ Chowdhury – a joint organizer – met Samantaji to invite him to attend. Samanta could not attend, but on being questioned, he categorically stated that music of Aradhana is indeed by father SD Burman. Even the selection of singers is by SDB. Mr Chowdhury has authored a book on SDB which is available in India. I can help u in getting it.

(2) Mr Bheemsinh Rahangdale, who manages sdburman.com met Samantaji around same time. He got the same answer.

(3) I have personally heard Shakti Samanta in repeat program ‘Aaj ke funkaar’ on Vividh Bharati broadcast at 9.30 pm some 2 years back. I have the date in my archives. He spoke about Aradhana, saying that two songs were recorded when Rafi left for foriegn tour. He suggested to Dada Burman that Dada had created beautiful songs with Kishore, why not take him, and Dada agreed.

(4, 5, 6, 7…) I have recorded interviews with late Manoharida, Kersi Lord and 3-4 more musicians who got their bread from SDB and bread-butter-jam from RDB. They all have said that Aradhana was by SDB. In fact Kersi Lord went ahead and said that during the recording of ‘Roop tera mastana’ RDB was not anywhere to be seen. Anyone can contact me and read/hear it. I have printed, signed versions and now some video recorded interviews.

Totally untrue. I have interviewed over half a dozen musicians who worked under SDB and RDB, all have confirmed that SDB did his own work and rejected RDB’s suggestions as far as his songs were concerned. At the same time, RDB copied SDB’s songs like “Baap ka maal”, including his last movie “1942, Love Story”. Have you watched Barhamanand’s movie on RDB, and heard what Vidhu Vinod Chopra has said?

SDB did not fall ill during Aradhana. He was hale and hearty, and completed all the songs. Rafi had gone on a two months foreign tour and Shakti Samanta suggested to SDB, saying that he (SDB) had created so many good songs with Kishore, so why not use him. SDB readily agreed. This has appeared in ‘Aaj ke funkaar’ programme on Vividh Bharati, and I have heard it. I have also talked to Manohari Singh Kersi Lord, Homi Mullan, Amrut Rao Katkar, and others who say the same thing that Aradhana songs are all by SDB. Ask Bhupinder Singh, who has also gone on record about SDB having done Aradhana, and not RDB, as quoted on the net. Any one wanting more proof can contact me to see signed interviews of some of those involved in Aradhana.

I think many of the old-timers associated with the music are showing a certain gesture of loyalty toward the father. But see this:
Saxophones and Seduction

“Although Aradhana‘s soundtrack is officially credited to Sachin Dev Burman, the bass guitar, surging accordion, and sultry saxophone suggest that his son R.D. Burman may have had a stronger hand in this song.:

The musicians who are still alive, got their bread from SDB, and bread with butter and Jam from son RDB, since RDB had a lot more work.
Are you suggesting they are telling lies?
Why should they, tell me one reason.

SDB had a very good knowledge of western music, which has been appreciated by the iconic composer Bobby Darwin of ‘Come September’ much before RDB became a composer.

Not saying they are lying in the way you’re making it out to be but it’s a bit hard to accept the claim that every reputable account of this is a lie either. Specially when those elements in RD’s music are evident in some of his 60s work and in his post-Aradhna work as well. It’s not about sounding ‘Western’. Many composers took their inspiration from the West or produced their own fusion attempts. But this is like saying that Laxmikant-Pyarelal on Karz and RD Burman on Rocky sound the the same because they’re both attempting fusion. It’s like saying today that Rahman and SEL sound the same because both have many Western cues in their music. No one is denying SD Burman’s standing here. The debate is on a much more precise matter which has been well-documented. Suddenly if you have some of the musicians associated with the music arguing otherwise, that RD wasn’t even around when he is otherwise credited as being the ‘associate music director’ on the film it’s a bit hard to buy that! Frankly the absence of a Roop tera mastana hardly alters the RD biography, nor does the same do anything for SD Burman. But the question here is a lot more specific than that. And as I’ve pointed out the ‘tune’ of Roop tera mastana or some of the other stuff in Aradhna might well have been SD’s creation but the final result bears RD’s stamp. Much as many traditional bits of music are transformed in Rahman’s reworkings. This is not to argue that SD was ‘inferior’ (even if I consider RD the greater genius), just that the result was ‘different’ with Kishore instead of Rafi or with the introduction or privileging of certain other instruments. Not sure why this is such a hard argument to accept. Neither career depends on a couple of songs in Aradhna!

Our youngsters have been fed on fibs for the past so many decades that they are now willing to believe anything beyond RD. As regards “Assistant Music Director” or a photograph on the CD, the father again and again tried to promote his son. When RD took away the entire SD team to Madras for his recording, everyone else was driven away by him except his son, who in reality was to blame, if at all some one has to be blamed, since one song of Tere Mere Sapne was to be recorded. RD’s biography I have read and I’ll say ‘The Man’ is missing. An established writer has put it in different words saying, ‘The Soul’ is missing. If Shakti Samanta was wrong in saying that the music was by SDB, then no one can argue with RDB fans.

A song is not just about a ‘tune’ but also and often moreso about orchestral arrangements, variations in beat, interludes and so on. So a tune that originated with SD Burman could have been radically altered by RD. Munna is quite right though that the signature of RD is all over something like Roop tera mastana and Kora Kagaz tha seems quintessential SD. Again compare the Rajesh Khanna stuff RD did following this. There’s a straight line from stuff like Mere sapno ki or roop tera going forward. Alternatively consider even the rare Rafi song RD did for Rajesh Khanna — gulabi aankhen from the Train (followed Aradhna a year or so later) and it’s quite unusual for many of the same reasons.

Father and son had an unusual relationship. The father refused to accept suggestions from RD, as well as other musicians, if they did not suit the situation or the tune, the son looked forward to his dad’s approval.
For example, when RD created the ‘Bada natkhat hai re’ for Amar Prem, father took over. Read in RDB’s words:

“Dada took over the harmonium from me and proceeded to modify the tune. Dada stayed within the same Khamaj thhaat, stuck to the same Raag Khamaj, while imparting a new feeling to my tune. The tune ultimately emerging was, if I’m to be honest, more Dada’s than mine.”
“I’d provided the base tune. It was left to Dada to give it a super-sensitive turn by which it unfolded the heart-tugging way it ultimately did on Sharmila Tagore – as Bada natkhat hai yeh Krishna Kanhaiya, ka kare Yashoda maiya ho.
“In that moment, I learnt from Dada that a composer’s job doesn’t end with preparing a mundane tune for a situation mundanely outlined to him,” confessed R D Burman.
“The music-maker – as underlined by Dada – must get involved in the film’s script, study the character for whom he’s composing and acquire the perception to project his composing personality into the character by venturing to experience her experiences. It was this one Bada natkhat tune as reshaped by Dada,” concluded Pancham, “that determined the tone I brought to the rest of the Amar Prem music – through numbers like Raina beetee jaaye, Chingaree koyee bhadke, Yeh kya huaa and Kuchch to log kahenge. The vocals of Kishore Kumar and Lata Mangeshkar did the rest.”

not sure how this contradicts anything I’ve said.. ! But again on the Amar Prem music note how bada natkhat (though it is my favorite song of all time in its genre) is pretty simple and ‘traditional’ in its arrangements while Chingari despite again being a Bengali tune is given some interesting riffs which bear RD’s distinctive stamp.

By the way when one is looking at the biographical record it’s always dangerous to just rip anecdotes or quotes out of context.

Pl don’t miss out what the son said in the end of the paragraph, ” It was this one Bada natkhat tune as reshaped by Dada,” concluded Pancham, “that determined the tone I brought to the rest of the Amar Prem music – through numbers like Raina beetee jaaye, Chingaree koyee bhadke, Yeh kya huaa and Kuchch to log kahenge. The vocals of Kishore Kumar and Lata Mangeshkar did the rest.”
Pancham was a great music director, but he had all along Dada till 1975. After which he faltered in 1970 and again in 1980. To do magic of ‘1942Love Story’ he had to resort to his father’s music.
Both were greats, but let’s give credit where it’s due.
We had so many great music directors, why others could not become like RDB, ask yourself. In fact all of them became redundant, while SD continued on the top till his death.
Best wishes.

That’s what gentlemen do when they stick to their guns. I would still recommend that you try and meet those who worked with RD for a much longer time than with his father. Time will come when they will be no more, and the RD fans will be in their dream world. Bhupinder Singh is a respected artist, try and meet him, or at least read what he says. Best wishes.

My dear friend,
Raju Bharatan is prone to day dreaming at times. Has he mentioned his source in this article? No.
While I am willing to take you to at least 4 – 5 living RDB assistants and 2 fans of RDB, to convince you and any RDB fan that:
1.SDB was not sick during Aradhana, 2. It was SDB who composed all songs of Aradhana, 3. RDB wasn’t even present when ‘Roop tera’ was recorded, 4. SDB didn’t take suggestions from his team when they didn’t suit the situation, 5. and many more discoveries.
I don’t blame anyone as our youngsters have been fed on this w/o anyone having proofs.
My interviews are voice recorded and signed by those who speak to me. Does Raju Bharatan have dictaphone recording.
Don’t believe Wikipedia as anyone can write anything.
When I started on this journey, my mind was open. I would have said it loud and clear if RD had given music for Aradhana and other films.
I would request to keep your mind open, wipe out the past, and be ready for the truth. When the first person said that the earth is not flat, but round, even the god’s church denounced him.

“Not surprisingly, Khanna admits that Panchamda was ‘instrumental’ in his take-off to stardom. “With all due respect to his music maestro father Sachin Dev Burman, the legendary number Mere Sapnon Ki Rani in Aradhana was actually composed by his talented son. Because I witnessed the song being ‘born’ during the sittings and even at the recording. Since Panchamda himself loved to play the harmonica, he has incorporated peppy portions of signature harmonica melodies in the Sapnon Ki Rani song, besides the foot-tapping train-in-motion rhythm something which gave him a creative high,” reveals the seasoned actor.”

I am thankful for the link that you have sent me. Now I am throwing a challenge. I can prove Khanna, or whoever wrote that piece on ‘Mere sapnon ki rani’ song, as wrong.
This portion specially:
Since Panchamda himself loved to play the harmonica, he has incorporated peppy portions of signature harmonica melodies in the Sapnon Ki Rani song, besides the foot-tapping train-in-motion rhythm something which gave him a creative high,” reveals the seasoned actor.
Watch the video again, and tell me which instrument is being played in the three antras? Looks like someone is fabricating these portions.
I will give details after you have watched the video and replied to me. Accept the challenge.

I accept that is what MS told me. But please tell me, what happened at their home between father and son, how will Manohari know? If you the style of the song, it is SD style. But beyond that, I will accept that I have no proof. Thanks.

“That according to Dev Anand, because of his poor health at that time, it was son RD who composed most of the mukhdas of Jewel Thief, while Dada worked completely on the antaras, orchestration, rehearsing and recording?”

From same link

“That according to playback singer Bhupinder, who was also a musician in those days, ‘Roop tera mastana…’ from Aradhana was not composed by Pancham as is commonly believed, but by Dada Burman himself. But Dada would very frequently ‘steal’ his son’s tunes, and tell him that he was testing them on the public?”

Munnaji, I have conducted some 14 interviews out of which some 7 are with living musicians of SDB-RDB, met and talked to 3 fans who have met Shakti Samant personally, heard Shaktida on Vividh Bharati myself. All this makes me says with authority that Dev or whoever says otherwise is incorrect.

SDB did not fall ill during Aardhana. These are lies and I have recorded and signed interviews with a number of musicians who worked with SDB and did roaring work with RDB. Anyone in Mumbai can meet me and see the evidence. I am not in a position to post it due to a book in the pipeline.

Premnagar was released in 1974, while RD was removed as an assistant of SDB in 1971 during ‘Tere mere sapne’, by his own mother Meera Devi Burman. In fact everyone was removed barring Maruti Rao Keer, who was devoted to Dada and worked for son too. The reason for such a drastic action was that RDB took away all the musicians (which were originally SDB’s) to Madras while one song of ‘Tere mere sapne’ was still balance. Dada got angry with everyone and Meera Devi did the rest.

Thank you Alex for your appreciation. I used to enjoy good music of every music director, but liked SDB’s music much more due to the different music genres that he created, even in the same year. Others, if good in ghazals, repeated ghazal, and those who were good in classical, repeated classical.

Late Ashok Da. Ranade, a well known vocalist, musicologist, composer and a writer has divided SDB’s music in 15 divisions. He added, ‘SD Burman’s music often defies classification!

Realizing that the net can spread falsehoods very fast, and simple minds starts believing the same, since a lie heard repeatedly becomes truth, I started my research in 2009. I met a number of luminaries who had worked with SDB and RDB, voice recorded what they said, typed and took their signatures. Later I bought a camcorder for the purpose.

They were being honest when they shattered all the beliefs on the net, and all of them had earned a lot of money from RDB than father SDB, since father took a few movies at any given time.

With my knowledge I started writing my findings, and slowly I was conferred co-administration of 3 SDB groups, with a total membership of over 15,000 fans.

All my postings carry reference, and those who have open mind ask questions to gather more information. For others, I don’t blame them as for years they have been fed on lies. No one has so far done what I have done. And if someone wants, I am willing to show my material. It is free, waiting to be shared.

I agree that RDB was an excellent musician, but who was responsible for that? Why no one else became RDB? SDB was responsible for the refinement of singers like Manna Dey, Hemant Kumar, Kishore, Geeta, Asha, Suman Kalyanpur, and others.

I can go on, but let me stop here. One posting or even one life will not be enough to write all what he achieved in his lifetime.

After 53 years, only lies have come out.
I am sorry to disappoint RDB fans, but the truth is different.
This is what Abrar Alvi, who was Guru Dutt’s right hand man for ten long years, had to say in his authorized Biography:
“Guru Dutt had picked up a bunch of 78 rpm records of English songs during his visit to England. There was one tune he liked a lot, and he decided to graft it on to Pyaasa. It was from the film Harry Black and the Tiger, which, though Guru Dutt did not know it then, would be released later in India. S. D. Burman, who was composing the music for the film, was asked to copy the song note for note. Of course, Dada Burman was very upset by the instruction. He came to me and said, “What is this that Guru is asking of me, public mujhe marega. Please explain to him, he listens to you, let me put in a little of my own tune into the song . . . change it a bit . . .’
But Guru was adamant– the tune would have to be copied hundred percent in the mukhda at least. ‘Let him do what he wants in the antara,’ he decreed and Burman Dada had to be content with that.
However, the music director waved his baton effectively enough to blend the tune with his own melody in a such a manner that no one really noticed the surgery, and the song remains a hit even today. ‘In fact, later, when the producer of Harry Black and the Tiger visited India, he heard the song and not only failed to recognize the tune, but commended Dada on it’ Abrar laughs.”
(Source: ‘Ten Years with Guru Dutt – ‘Abrar Alvi’s Journey’ by Sathya Saran, Pages 71 and 72)

Kersi Lord, a very senior musicians with SDB and RDB, in his voice recorded and signed interview with us in October 2009, narrated how mistakes carry on propagating:

Kersi Lord, “Another thing about you people (He was talking about press, we were not press, only SDB lovers.) I am going a little bit off track now. Somebody wrote one book in Pune, years back, on Pancham. Whatever the mistakes in that book, – mistakes are there, hundred percent, I vouch for it, those mistakes still continue. Because when anybody writes a new book, he refers to that book, so the publishing of wrong information continues.”

“…”Coming back to my career. Till the end of 1964 I didn’t have much work. ‘Teesri Manzil’ was the only big hit to my credit. It was only after I assisted my father in ‘Aradhana’ that producers thought ‘Pancham ko bhi kaam dena chahiye’. Shaktida who had seen me work in ‘Aradhana’ gave me his ‘Kati Patang’. My assignments started picking up then on.””

If you read about SDB’s life and his simplicity though directly coming from a royal stock, you can’t imagine such a man stealing his own son’s tunes. The fact is that the son kept on failing as everybody wanted father, and father kept on refusing films and pushing his son.

How can a father, who came happily from his morning walk after he had heard people recognizing him as RD’s father, steal his son’s tunes! That morning, back from his walk, he called his wife and son and happily announced he was very happy that now he is known as RDB’s father.

Have you read SDB’s autobiography? Besides creating excellent music, he was a great writer too. I am just quoting couple of paras from it,

“There is no village or river in this part of eastern Bengal, which I had not visited. I used to collect songs during my holidays and in-between my studies. Whatever music is my capital today; is the result of the collected treasure of those days. Today, I am enriched with this one treasure only and my heart and soul still fills up with it. Now I am serving music through the treasure of my collection and sweet memories of those days.

I have created all types of music, but my soul manifests through folk music. I have grown up in close contact with down-to-earth people, so the easy and simple folk tunes blossom in my voice naturally. Those tunes are my kingdom of imagination, they come automatically and my voice sings them spontaneously. For this, I need no practice as they have blended in my life. Regulations, formalities and protocol of the Royal Family were absent in me. One, who has felt the green of the open fields, whom mother nature has hidden in her lap in the shades of the large old trees, who has spent nights for reasons unknown in villages where humble kerosene lamps emit little light, watched the sky and loved it, who lost himself talking with village folks sitting on the earthen floor, how can the palace and its atmosphere restrict him?”

I have never tried to say that RDB didn’t work in Aradhana as an assistant. But to say that he did anything beyond an assistant’s job is incorrect. I don’t blame some of the fans who have been made to think that way due to a lot of misinformation on the net.

Their are several instances where Father Burman admonished his son and other assistants on excessive music in his songs. I am reproducing what Majrooh Sultanpuri has said on this, which can be watched on Youtube:

(Majrooh on how RDB and others were admonished by Sachinda on their excessive music)

4.45 (All the time, Manohari Singh is shown smiling, and nods his head in affirmation, when in the end Majrooh asks him the question, “Manohari babu, yaad hai na aapko?)

Notes: (1) Numbers on left are timings Of the video I watched. (2) ??? means not clear to me. (3) I have more recorded instances on the subject, all from the horses’ mouths. (4) Watch on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5whdz2PJJc

“Their are several instances where Father Burman admonished his son and other assistants on excessive music in his songs”
Hmm interesting–Moti uncle
Think sdburmans own credentials and his contribution towards RDB are a bit under recognised (obviously RDBs talent and credentials are rightfully recognised and celebrate nowadays though)

About RDB’s training by father, country’s top notch musicians were arranged by him. No one else ever got training from such great masters in their own field.

When SDB asked RDB to learn Tabla first, RDB reacted, ‘Why tabla?’, as he thought it as a lowly instrument. SDB told him to learn tabla and to know the importance of ‘rhythm’ in music.
Later, the same RDB said how later he realized the importance of tabla in music.

Moti Lalwani, it’s a bit odd that you would find Asha of all people an unreliable witness! But leaving this aside (and the others in the documentary who say similar stuff.. Shiv Kumar Sharma was example says that there were quite a few tunes passed off as SD Burman’s that were the son’s.. Shammi Kapoor says that even as far back as Guide Gaata Rahe was really RD Burman’s work…) I am not personally invested in this matter. For the simple reason that my estimation of either father or son does not rest with Aradhana. There are more than a few Rajesh Khanna soundtracks that are very comparable to this if not better (just restricting oneself to that specific ‘history’).

But I am always interested in what such intense debates are a symptom of! In other words why is that important to have Aradhana as the site where a line must be drawn in the sand for SD Burman? Isn’t it because there is already an anxiety among the ‘partisan’ followers of the father about the ‘currency’ of the son?! In other words to even insist on this ‘competition’ one is accepting that the son was a giant as well. Otherwise why would one even bother?!

Aradhana then becomes merely a way of keeping Rajesh Khanna’s breakout moment and a very iconic part of that history firmly in SD’s column and hence also connecting him with this ‘new wave’ that is otherwise firmly on the side of RD. It’s not just me, for any fans of either figure or both, the laurels each deserves hardly rests with this ‘one’ soundtrack (no matter how great). So why this great obsession with it to begin with?

Here is my own ‘summary’ of the situation for what it’s worth:

1)R D Burman was rather well-known in industry circles as something of a prodigy even before he became famous or successful. In more than one instance I have read or seen (as most recently in this documentary) anecdotes of how some SD Burman songs either owed a great deal to the son or were completely his. Now I have no means of verifying this but to say that somehow the musicians are more reliable witnesses where someone like Asha isn’t or where some of the other stars who used to sit in on the recording sessions and so on is simply not reasonable. Either one discounts all such ‘anecdotal’ info in which case what your musician sources say doesn’t mean anything either or else one does in which case Asha is about as good a witness for RD as I would anyone could possibly be! When Shammi Kapoor details his involvement with RD for Teesri Manzil and when he then discusses the rest of his career it’s surely a bit disingenuous to suggest or imply that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Or finally one must go down the route of complete verification in which case any bit of anecdote cannot be believed more than any other.
Secondly were the musicians always present ‘at home’ whenever the father and son discussed ideas for a composition and its possible arrangements and so on?!

2)But this brings me to the larger more important point. There is something called ‘collaboration’ in these matters and if ever there is the example of such it is probably this father and this son for very many years in the 60s. There are lots of RD tunes that could have been his father’s. And there are many SD tunes that bear the stamp of his son. It’s not just about the ‘tune’ here. Surely the musical arrangements make all the difference in the world (again in that documentary, I forget the song, but as the commentator says by just using a guitar riff where normally a tabla would have been used for that basic rhythm the song is completely transformed.. so it’s hardly enough to just talk about ‘tunes’ without all these other elements). Is it plausible that with such a gifted son who was venturing or had ventured into the same field, that the two never compared notes?! So my point it’s probably very hard to establish a firm dividing line specially during a certain period especially for certain soundtracks. Aradhana is the exemplary case here which is why there is this debate. In the documentary Shammi Kapoor says that Kora Kagaz tha was all R D Burman. When his father fell sick he had to prove that he could match the father’s level (and according to some of anecdotal evidence this was happening anyway..). And yet I’d be surprised if Roop tera mastana or Mere Sapno ki rani had no input from RD at all. It is easier I think to connect Aradhana to Teesri Manzil than to many of the father’s key moments. And similarly when Shammi says Gaata rahe was RD I don’t find this very surprising (even with respect to the rest of that soundtrack). So there is grey area here but the signature RD often comes through in many of these instances. But this doesn’t mean a giant like SD is simply put int he shade. Because there were already certain ‘tendencies’ in SD which the son then took further and brought to maturity and later created a truer fusion out of. There is no absolute dividing line between early RD and late SD. It is what RD eventually becomes that’s important though of course there are important hints of this in his earlier stuff as well. Within that same documentary any number of contemporary musicians discuss the RD style and revolution from Teesri Manzil onwards.

Within this larger discourse one soundtrack is not earth-shattering either way but I think what you’re missing is this larger collaborative element. And moreover the father is not diminished by the greatness of the son even if the son is judged greater (which is of course a separate debate).

Moti uncle has some reall nice points
And seems the new uncle on the block!
Also he seems to have done loads of ‘research’ on it
Unless he is not a relative of burmans (!) or is not doing it for his own selfish reasons (PHD etc) that’s creditable
Keep it up Moti uncle

I am spending my own money and time to do this for future generations. I have never made any money except in my profession, that too by rightful means. Even this material, so collected shall be handed over totally free, for a book by an author and a publisher.

“I met a number of luminaries who had worked with SDB and RDB, voice recorded what they said, typed and took their signatures. Later I bought a camcorder for the purpose.” Brilliant
Seems i have a knack of picking this 😉
From your very first post, i knew here is a person who knows his stuff and is not talking from hearsay.
Btw what made u do all this –voice recording and camcorder bit (reminds me of something i indulge in lol)
Is it as part of your job or just a hobby
Dont mind the ‘tone’ osf some of the commentators here
Satyam is a ‘fountainhead’ of movie knowledge 😉
plz feel free to share your data–Will be an enlightening epxercise for most here
Also as siad before, i have never bought into this premise of a dad taking claim for his sons works!! (belies logic besides common sense)
also agree wiht u about the ‘depth’ of sd burmans works.
Im looking from a much much more retrospoective view (from there even rdb is retrosective) but can not help but feel this paradox . sd burmans works def cannot be ‘pigeon holed’ into genres most of the time

Beyond a point, this is a fruitless debate. Attempts at mischief making from the uusual culprits notwithstanding.
RD remains a singularly gifted composer regardless of whether he did those songs or not and SD remainsa true giant even if RD did those songs. Satyam summed it up aptly.In the end, no one knows who to believe as there are different sources and the key players are not there any more.

The one claim that can definitely be made though is that RD is historically the more important and influential figure. Rahman has sometimes referred to him as the single greatest influence (he’s mentioned Ilaiyaraja in other contexts), certainly most of the generation that’s followed from the 90s onwards has been more indebted to him than anyone else (for better or worse). RD gave the industry that new revolutionary turn. The same cannot be said about SD (or for that matter a number of other titans).

Very true.
And, RD has always been a favorite of mine. I also realise that Naushad,LP,SD,SJ all have their staunch supporters who become defensive when any assertion of this kind is made.
Plus, I have noticed there are some just looking to stir trouble by playing up one side or the other without having any strong convictions or a particular view point in the matter.
So best to just duck and let them be.

The line between ‘conviction’ and ‘closed mind rigidity’ is as thin as that between ‘lack of conviction’ and ‘openness’
Most (maybe all) humans spend their lives trying to tackle this ‘thin line’ and grasp it
Some like rajen uncle, master it very soon in life !!!
🙂

Hi Alex,
I am reproducing an article by Mr Peeyush Sharma, who had met Shakti Samanta in 1991 and discussed all his films and music in them. Shakti da has discussed all his music directors which includes SDB and RDB naturally.
If, even after this article, ‘closed mind’ fans think otherwise, then even god may not succeed with them.
If anyone wants Email address of Peeyushji, I shall be too glad to share it.
Enjoy the article to know more about music in Shaktida’s films, and about SDB and RDB in his films.

Shakti Samanta – in conversation with Peeyush Sharma

By Peeyush Sharma.
I met Shakti Samanta (SS) in Calcutta during early 1990s Calcutta International Film Festival. We spoke on two occasions in and around the festival venues. Most of the conversation was in Bengali language and parts in Hindi. He asked my credentials and made sure I did not record our conversation. He asked me who else had I met during this festival, I informed him of a few names I had met like, Vijay Anand, Gulzar, Revathi, Supriya Devi, Basu Bhattachrya, etc. At the beginning he was a bit uncomfortable, snapping into short replies but later on became more relaxed. On our second meeting he was totally relaxed.
Dada, my basic interest is in the music in your films….
SS “What about it ?”
From early on your films have had good music. The Hemant Kumar phase for Bahu, Inspector and Hill Station had all good music, when did you become aware of the music quality you wanted in your films ?
SS “ Music is an important ingredient in our cinema and I was comfortable with Hemanta da as I knew him from before during my apprenticeship with Phani da (Phani Mazumdar).”
Who selected the tunes, songs or singers ?
SS “At first and mostly always, it was team work, a joint effort. The lyricist would bring the lyrics as the situation demanded and we would all sit to select a tune. Hemanta da would sing and play some tunes and we would choose. Singer was mostly the choice of the music director.”
You only did one film with Madan Mohan.
SS “ Yes, that was producer’s choice. Pachhi wanted me to make movies for him, we planned three of them, he suggested Madan Mohan, but the film did not do well at the box office. I thought no more work for Pachhi, but he came back with another project with Madhubala and Dev Anand and wanted O.P.Nayyar to do the music. At that time many producers were moving on to Nayyar as his music was being much appreciated.”
That was Jaali Note, but you signed O.P.Nayyar even before in your home production, Howrah Bridge.
SS “ No, No, Jaali Note was planned before, the release and even the shoot got delayed. Nayyar was introduced to me by Pachhi and Madhubala recommended him strongly. That was one of my biggest selling music, Howrah Bridge. For the first time I realized the strength of music sale.”
Which was the third Pachhi film ?
SS “ Never got made.”
Howrah Bridge was truly superb music, even today it sound wonderful.
SS “ Nayyar always gave good music in my films, he never let me down. That was a strong point for sale of my picture.”
I think all your movies had a reputation of good music.
SS “ In Howrah Bridge, I added two more songs than what we had originally planned only because I liked Nayyar tunes so much that I had to include it.”
Which ones ?
SS” One was the Sunder comedian song and the other Madhubala’s other song.”
Yeh kya kar dala toone, dil tera ho gaya…?
SS “ Yes, I think that was it.”
What then made you switch to Sachin Dev Burman in Insaan Jaag Utha ?
SS “ In Bengali circle, his was a very respected name, we addressed him as Sachin Karta. The subject of the film was different from all those crime films I made earlier and I thought I would approach him. He had a reputation of not accepting too many movies, but he accepted my offer and gave very nice music. But, the film was just a mediocre run.”
I have read a story about his sketching the tractor tire gap scale in his drawing room and working on dance steps on that scale to pick the beat. Can you tell about it ?
SS “That is absolutely true. We were shooting outdoors and the schedule for song picture-isation was ready but even after some twenty days the song was not finalised by Sachin Karta. So I went to his house. I can not tell you how amazed I was. I saw that the furniture was all pushed back to the walls and he had made some chalk marks on the floor. When I enquired what was going on, he explained, that these chalk marks are the distance from one tractor wheel to the other. Your heroine and her friend will dance around, I am still trying to figure out the exact number of steps, for both of them, in various dance forms before I can compose the rhythm . Sachin Karta then took some dance steps all around the chalk marks to explain his point. He even said, that if he made the marks spread out it will be easy for him to compose but you will find it difficult to place camera movements properly. I was stunned that some one can be so involved in creating the music. Actually, Sachin da’s understanding of the situation, the director’s job, the camera placements etc. was unparalleled. Some of it was imbibed by Rahul also, but Sachin da was unique.”
That was for Jaanu jaanu re kaahe khanke hai tora kangana..
SS “yes”
How was it during Naughty Boy, another SDB film with you.
SS “ During Naughty Boy songs Sachin da was not keeping good health, also there was some difference that developed between Kishore and Sachin da. So at the recording either Jaidev or Rahul Dev would go and record the song. I feel owing to his health he just finished the songs in a rush. Yet, they were appreciated and were good songs.”
So, none of the songs were actually recorded by Dada.
SS “ One duet, Ab to batla arre zaalim meri kismet.. was done by him prior to other songs.”
Do you know what was the difference that had developed between them.
SS “ I can not exactly tell this, but Kishore was going through Madhubala’s sickness problem and Sachin Karta himself was not well during this period. Must be something, I do not know.”
Then you moved on to Shammi Kapoor and the music changed, so did the music directors.
SS “ First was Singapore, producer FC Mehra was a relative of Shammi and he said as it was a international project the music must be by Shanker Jaikishen. The music and the film did good business. If I had my way I had made movies all my life with Shammi but he kept putting on weight. Everybody warned me that Jaane Anjaane and Pagla Kahin kaa would have problem but I never wanted to look beyond Shammi.”
But you had China Town with Ravi and Kashmir Ki Kali with O.P.Nayyar and An Evening in Paris with Shanker Jaikishen again.
SS “China Town was planned around the China town of Calcutta and Ravi did a good job with me, earlier in Shamsul Huda’s film, Isi Ka Naam Duniya Hai. So we had a sitting and both Shammi and myself liked the music. Kashmir Ki Kali had a bigger canvas and I needed a bigger name and what excellent music Nayyar gave for this film. It was a huge hit, the film and the music. We were excited about every song and loved to film them as the tunes were excellent. Evening in Paris was again an international project and Shammi’s confidence about Jaikishen was the real deciding factor, again both the film and the music was huge hit. Actually even today on stage shows people perform Evening in Paris songs and audience loves it.”
Then why Sachin Dev again in Aradhana ?
SS “ Subject and Bengali story. Sachin Karta had done super job in both Dev Anand films Guide and Jewel Thief and I really wanted to go back to him. Also, Nayyar was never a choice for a Bengali subject, neither was Shanker Jaikishen. In Aradhana, Sachin Karta gave me my life’s biggest hit. From the record sale of Aradhana, I made so much money that I produced next five films only from the music sale of Aradhana. Of course, the film was a huge hit also. You know, the record was dubbed and released in 5 languages, and was a hit in every language.”
So, is that your all time favourite among all movies you made ?
SS “Aradhana, Amar Prem, Evening in Paris, Amanush, Kashmir Ki Kali, are all my favourites.”
You mean music wise or movies ?
SS “Movies, movies. For music my all time favourite among all my films is Kashmir Ki Kali, for always. Personally I just love the musuc. The excitement we felt when we first heard the music, I feel even today when I listen to the Kashmir ki Kali songs. They are super compositions and sung excellently by both Asha and Rafi. So much life and feelings in them.”
That does not surprise me, the music was really good. Then, what made you move on to RD ?
SS “ During Aradhana, the way RD worked on orchestration, arrangements and recording, I was very impressed. Also, I was present when he recorded his Bengali puja song with Kishore, Aakash kaino daake.., I just loved the tune, so I booked it for my next project. Also, he was preparing another, Aaj gun gun gun…which too I booked. Then Sachin Karta suggested to sign RD for my next film. The songs were chosen even before we planned our next film. That is how Kati Patang came into being. Again, a huge hit, both music and the film.”
(Aakash kaino daake.. is the original tune of Ye sham mastani. And, Aaj gun gun gun.. is of Pyar diwana hota hai..).
Dada, this brings me to a very important question that has been in my mind for many years. How much of music of Aradhana was done or composed by RD ?
SS “None. Every tune was composed by Sachin karta himself, RD only worked on orchestration, again every piece of instrument to be used was decided by Sachin Karta, RD followed his instructions. Sachin da did not like any interference, he accepted suggestions and encouraged Rahul a lot, he also trusted in Rahul’s talent, but his tunes were like his babies, some one can put a dress on it but not without Sachin da’s approval. They were all hundred percent Sachin da’s tunes.”
What about the singers, I have heard and read that Kishore was RD’s choice when Dada Burman was unwell ?
SS “No, No, (he gives out a laugh), this is all bad propaganda by some people who are now trying to push RD’s name and fame. Sachin da, when he composed a tune, did so with particular singer in his mind always, and no body could change it. He knew who will sing which song even before consulting me about the tune. All this was fully Sachin da’s work. RD only recorded the songs and controlled the orchestration, he always did this for his Baba. These are all false stories.”
Well then, how about Sachin Dev ghost composing for Amar Prem?
SS “ Another false story. Amar Prem was entirely RD’s work. We had planned the film music to sound like Sachin da type of music. Even the song that Sachin Karta sang is composed by Rahul. If RD asked, Sachin Karta would advise but they did not interfere in each other’s composing.”
(We ended our first day conversation here. We met again after a day’s gap. He smiled at me and asked, what more you want to know? We sat down for tea at the Nandan cinema complex and started again.)
What went wrong with Anurodh ?
SS “ You mean music ?”
Well, both music and movie.
SS “L-P worked extremely hard to make the music of Anurodh, and the music was good, also appreciated, but when a film fails the music goes down also.”
Why do you think the film failed ?
SS “ I think public did not accept romantic pairing of Rajesh with his saali (sister in law), you saw the film, what do you say was wrong.”
It was based on a very successful Bengali film Deya Neya which had exceptionally good music by Shyamal Mitra, I feel the Hindi version did not match in quality neither as a movie nor music. Not anywhere near your adaption of the Bengali Nishi Padma into Amar Prem.
SS “ You may be right, but the all India audience had not seen the Bengali originals, so there can be no comparison.”
How did you start casting Uttam Kumar for Hindi films ?
SS “ That Nishi Padma you mentioned just now, I was buying the rights from the producer and Uttam had a share in the rights. When we met I told him I was waiting for right time and subject and we both wanted to work together.”
Then why Shyamal Mitra in the Hindi version ?
SS “ Why, he did a very good job, the songs were a hit.”
Yes they were, I am just asking why not RD or some regular Bombay music director ?
SS “ It was image shift to bring Bengal’s superstar to Bombay, I think the Rajesh Khanna type of music might not have worked here, so we had Shaymal da do the music.”
Dada, how do you compare the composing styles of Sachin Dev and O.P.Nayyar ?
SS “ Oh, diametrically opposite to each other. Sachin da would sit with harmonium on the floor of his drawing room and compose tunes. Some one, either Meera bou di or RD would take notations, he would use his own words or Meera’s words to fit the tune. After some 10 to 15 tunes we would start selecting. Later, when the lyrics were available, we had the sitting again, re-work the tunes and some times he would suggest new tunes. He would sing all his compositions, with RD and also Meera bou di joining him in singing, and I must tell you, you know this, Sachin da was a great singer. With Nayyar, I don’t think I have seen him with a harmonium, he would compose on piano, mostly and always had a tabla man by his side, very particular about the rhythm, he would mostly hum the tunes also sometimes sing them. But he would never work on tunes first. Sachin da needed a situation or the scene detail and the character who performs the song on screen and the point in story, and lyrics may or may not be available. Not so with Nayyar, he had to have the lyrics first, then the song situation, character, story line etc. Many times Nayyar would change the words here and there in the lyrics or ask the lyricist to re-write, he was particular about the lyrics. He would also provide 10 or 15 or more choices, many times Asha would be there and would sing along, but, he composed very quickly and when in mood he gave large variety one after the other. A little hum, he would start with, give instructions to the percussionist on the beat or rhythm and start on piano, puffing on his cigarettes. And produce such lovely tunes that always I ended up taking one or two extra songs than planned earlier in the film. Sachin da was more serious type though he composed light tunes also, but Nayyar was full of life, full of energy, always smiling. You know, even today, many youngsters approach me appreciating the Howrah Bridge songs or Kashmir Ki Kali or even Sawan Ki Ghata songs, like they do for Evening in Paris too. Also, let me say here, on the other side, the songs from RD and Kishore in Kati Patang and Amar Prem are unparalleled, it is their lifetime best work. All variety all quality one can ask for is there in these two film songs. They had the same tuning that Nayyar had with Asha once, that RD had with Kishore, it shows in their work. I am really lucky to have been associated with all these great artists for my films.”
(We started walking towards the screening theatre, and I just commented his doing some 8 films with Sharmila and just 3 with Madhubala)
SS “ Sharmila is like family, I brought her to Bombay, she did not care for story or cast or anything, she had full trust in me, only if the dates were available, she was available for me. Her best films are all with me. Madhubala, what to say, was an extremely good artist, very supportive, helpful, ready to listen and do accordingly, she was particular about not letting producer waste any money because of her. Very good attitude even with co-stars.”
We wished each other well, did Namaste and parted.
(Peeyush Sharma)

“By Peeyush Sharma.
I met Shakti Samanta (SS) in Calcutta during early 1990s Calcutta International Film Festival. We spoke on two occasions in and around the festival venues. Most of the conversation was in Bengali language and parts in Hindi. He asked my credentials and made sure I did not record our conversation.”
hmmmmmm. I wonder why SS made sure that Peeyush Sharma did not record? Dhal mai kuch kala lagta hai…

I have heard it. By this Dev means music for mukhra by RD. Nothing new here.

Dada used to sing the song and tell Amrut Rao Katkar or Maruti Rao Keer what rhythm to follow and play along with him, all at home. This is what I call composing the song, based on a particular raag, and rhythm.

During this time RDB used to be at his home in Santacruz with his crowd, composing his songs.

Then Dada will send word to RD to bring in the gang. RDB, Manohari, Basuda, and the rest of the gang will come on a Sunday to compose the music.

Dada will give it to RDB and his assistants to fill in the music. He would be in and out of the music room in his bungalow. When ready, If the music is too loud or not to his liking, he will reject it.

“Dev means”? I think he says it quite clearly that RD did the mukhra. Without qualification!

Anyway this is going nowhere but with all due respect I doubt you’d accept RD did some of this stuff even if SD himself said it! From Dev Anand to Asha Bhosle to a number of stars there’s all sorts of evidence to suggest what you don’t want to accept. The conspiracy (which is what you say it is) to bring down SD would be the strangest in world history! Most witnesses in these documentaries suggest RD had a tough time getting work because most wanted his father. You’re implying the opposite. That somehow everyone was in the tank for RD and decided to rewrite history in his favor. So Dev Anand waits months on Guide only because he wants SD to compose his music but then decides to ‘defame’ him and give credit to RD for the Gaate rahe mukhra (Shammi Kapoor also said this song was RD’s)? It just belies common sense. And a final word on the Aradhana argument, leaving aside the whole debate of how much RD did here from kora gagaz tha to mere sapno ki rani consider stuff like Kati Patang and Amar prem. The guy who did this right after was somehow not capable of those songs in Aradhana?! Not to mention all the other stuff he did in the period and after. In his very first big break he produces a Teesri Manzil where practically every song was a superhit and where some of these are still very iconic. Again as I said yesterday it (Aradhana) was probably a collaborative effort. The ‘tune’ isn’t everything. It’s about the arrangements and so on. But where is that ‘gap’ between father and son discernable (leaving aside who one prefers)?

Once more as I said yesterday what is this debate really about? By insisting in the face of some strong evidence that it’s all a ‘lie’ you’re doing the exact opposite of what you think you are. You’re diminishing SD! Does his reputation and artistry really depend on a few such ‘disputed’ moments?! So what if RD did that one mukhra in Guide?! Isn’t the album titanic even otherwise?! And if he was quite sick during Aradhana and eventually had to give it up and RD completed it so what?! The fact that he was able to do this kind of album that late in life and essentially stay with the times already means a lot. The same goes for RD. His reputation hardly depends on these few moments. Fundamentally I find this whole debate a bit absurd. Why should one be that invested in it? I am not as I said yesterday but it’s also a bit frustrating to keep seeing facts to the contrary and be constantly told that it’s all a cover-up or a lie or whatever. With all due respect once more (and I mean this sincerely) one can be that loyal retainer of the king even more jealously guarding the king’s interests than the king himself.

Dev Anand was not there either? Asha doesn’t know these things? And why did the story even come about if no one was saying anything?

The musicians could be SD loyalists who simply don’t want anyone but him to be credited. So when RD assists his father what kind of ‘assistance’ is this? It could be some very creative inputs but the musicians could keep saying that it’s only SD’s music. One can be loyal to both son and father but still feel greater reverence for the latter. This is not an unheard-of situation. It happens in many cases in life. Where the son himself does not wish to take too much credit and where the people surrounding them go with this because it matches their own instincts as well.

There are some central questions here that are not being answered. It’s not just about this or that song.

Anyway I don’t think we are going to convince each other. But thanks for your input in any case.

If You read Rahul Dev Burman Fan group (which has fair share of SDB fans) on Yahoo groups , they have talked with Manohari and Bhanu Da who have acknowledged that “Kora kagaz tha” was RDB tune rest were SDB tunes( atleast the base). But music arrangement and other ground work are still matter of controversy as no one would say exactly the amount of work each one did.

Munnaji,
I have Manohari’s signed interview backed up by his voice recording. Do these fans have such evidence? If not, I would request you to tell such fans to stop spreading rumours.

And if these fans do bot believe Shakti Samanta’s interviews with various fans (one posted by me earlier), and his own voice on Vividh Bharati, then how can we argue with such people? Can we?

I have as a proof, several recorded interviews which put down facts in the proper perspective. Both SDB-RDB fan groups should wake up and realise that father and son were unique in their own ways, and not spread rumours of one against the other.

Moti ji,
I have seen your comments around various blogs basically stating this case again and again with similar statements. Most of people didn’t oppose anything you said.

Why don’t you scan different interviews and post it?
Atleast I posted couple of videos and website links in support of my statements. You merely have been asserting without any proof.

There are two sets of people; one set saying Aradhana compositions were SDB and there are others who state that RDB had significant hand in compositions/orchestration of Aradhana.
What makes you think that one set is more truthful, when both sets were involved in making of the movie?

Munnaji,
I have conducted some 22 interviews, most of them with those who had been in close association with SDB, RDB and the common team of their musicians.

I am planning to give all my my material (I call it original research, neither from books nor from internet as both can be wrong), for a book to be published on our cultural heritage.

I don’t intend to make even a rupee from it, its totally free. Hence I can’t post complete interviews, but one days they shall see light of day. In the meanwhile I keep on posting excerpts to let fans know the truth.

Now about who is ‘more truthful’. I think any intelligent fan should not believe either of two views until each one is willing to show proof of their claims.

I can’t post as explained above, but am ready for scrutiny of my material by anyone interested in seeing and hearing the truth. I am in Mumbai.

The biography of RDB by Anirudha and Balaji has this to say about ‘Kora kagaz’ song.

‘During the recording of ‘Kora kahaz tha’ and ‘Mere sapnon ki rani’ , it was SD who dictated the number of musicians who would play in each recording. According to Shakti Samanta, Pancham had asked for twelve musicians during the recording of ‘Safal hogi teri Aradhana’, the title track of the film, while SD had mandated only eleven. The extra musician had to be paid off and relieved prior to the recording on SD’s insistence.’ (P 84)

It would seem RD had varying degree of contribution to a lot of SD songs, some more some less. At what point it becomes RD’s song versus SD’s is an arguable point. It would seen his input was certainly more than that of an assistant. My reading of Mr. Lalwani’s posts ( taking them at face value) is that RD regulalry contributed to SD’s compositions. May be not enough to call them his own but still substantilal. With SD at the helm, obviously he had the final say. And, probably rightly got the credit.

Rajenji,
RD has himself claimed only 1 song as his, ‘Ae meri topi’, even if we take him at the face value.

As regards his contribution, the contribution of any assistant is limited to what is approved by the boss.

As they say, ‘Success has many fathers, failure only one’. When a lot of father’s songs failed to make a mark during RDB’s assistant-ship, does anyone say RDB failed?

And when RDB was driven out by mother during ‘Tere mere sapne’ (1971) episode, did father’s talent take a beating? No, it did not. Mother did not allow RDB to even come to the recording studios, but father’s songs remained as popular as ever.

In fact father took away award for ‘Abhiman’ (1973) when RDB was not his assistant otherwise some of the misguided fans would have falsely claimed ‘It was RDB’s work.’ Father won this award against competition from son RDB (Daag and Yaadon ki baraat), Kalyanji-Anandji (Zanjeer) and Laxmi-Pyarelal (Bobby). Did father need son?

No, but the son needed his father. When Vidhu Vinod Chopra (1942, A Love Story) rejected RDB’s songs, calling them ‘Shit, bullshit.’ son started singing, ‘Rongila, rongila, rongila re’, a famous song sung by SDB, Vidhu said, ‘That’s the music I want’. And son had to copy father’s earlier tunes. This is all documented in Brahamanand’s documentary on RDB, which rightly brings out the best of RDB.

Motiuncle,
I am interpreting that part of documentary (about VVC bit) differently from you. RDB was trying to compose contemporary music (“aaj kal yehi chalta hai”) and VVC “your composition is shit…I want SD burman”, which I interpret as VVC wanting something more on (hindustani) classical/folksey music and not contemporary. It is like a director telling his choreographer/dance director, that he wants a disco here and kathak here. The cues has to come from the director (no?). Anyhow, SDB was long gone, so you cannot give credit of “ek ladki ko dekka” to SDB, right?

Dear Di,
‘Rongila, rongila, rongila re’ was sung by SDB, and that’s the music VVC wanted, or similar to that as interpreted by you. But If you have seen the documentary, VVC points to something above RDB (not in camera, but obviously SDB’s photograph), and says, “He is no more, now you are the best (biggest?) music director” or some such words.

I am quoting here from the biography of ‘RD Burman – The Man, The Music’

‘1942 was a film where Pancham went back to the old order, where tune was given the top billing. In effect, he went back in time and filled in the spaces with sounds typical to the period. With ‘Ek ladki ko dekha’, he got on to the full-on mukhra-antara style his father had once pioneered in ‘Borne gondhe chhonde geetitey’ (the original tune for ‘Pholon ke rang se’ in Dev Anand’s Prem Pujari ), where the mukhra and the antara are merged as one. It also had a cadence that was deceptively fast in spite of the progression being very slow. ‘Kuch na kaho’ found Pancham fleetingly referencing the tune of SD’s ‘Rongila rongila’ and giving it a totally different colour and contour, with an orchestration bordering on symphonic.'(P 334)

Here is another excerpt from the same book:
‘Sivaji Chatterjee who sang ‘Ye safar’ in 1942 reveals: In October 1992, while teaching me the song and test-recording my voice at Marylands, Pancham-da said that he had “Jaane woh kaise” (Pyaasa) at the back his mind while composing the song.’ (P 334)

This book is written by a staunch RDB fan, I know him, and attended the book launch in Mumbai
.
Do you still have any doubts that RDB took help of his father’s tunes even after ‘SDB was long gone’, as mentioned by you.

“He is no more, now you are the best (biggest?) music director” I know. Everyone has personal viewpoint on it and favourites. VVC has his. Maybe he was saying this to RDB because RDB had lost confidence or was at low point in his life.
“Do you still have any doubts that RDB took help of his father’s tunes even after ‘SDB was long gone’, as mentioned by you.”
You should read the piece by Satyam on how artist(s) are inspired. Inspiration and copying are two different things, no? IN my personal viewpoint, RDB was genius innovator. In a different era, different country he would be of equivalent of musical greats like Mozart/Beethovan (based on the documentary and also other stuff I saw on youtube).
Anyhow, this *debate* has gone round and round in circles. I don’t want to judge music or musicians and have little understanding on technical music stuff (antara-mukda-notes etc). I am pretty sure SDB must be very-very proud of his son. I am sure every father wants his son/children to be better/superior than themselves. This is ultimate achievement for a parent. It is we (the people) who judge which tune belongs to which guy, that is ridiculous.

There are two separate things we are talking about:
One is facts v/s fiction, like who gave music of Aradhana, etc where I have been posting facts from my research.
The other is personal viewpoint, like you just said VVC has his, you have yours, and I have mine. No argument on this.

You have written, “Inspiration and copying are two different things”. I don’t think I mentioned anything about this! Of course there are posts on the net mentioning who got inspired/copied from whom. For RDB, it was ‘Baap ka maal’ as mentioned in the recent book on him, but I didn’t even mention that.

“This debate has gone round and round in circles”, is bound to happen if we don’t appreciate what the other is trying to say.

“SDB must be very-very proud of his son.”
Yes, that is very true. He expressed it several times, as narrated to me in my interviews. At the same time he expressed that he feared his son may not do well at all times. This did happen after senior Burman’s death in seventies and again in eighties.

“It is we (the people) who judge which tune belongs to which guy…”
From my side, I have not judged any tune, but produced facts, which can only be appreciated.

Motiji,
Up until last few comments of yours, I thought you were genuine person. Having read last few comments, I get dishonesty and agenda based “facts”. It seems that you are financed by some factions to spread out the “facts” on one musician’s merit against another. It seems that posthumously someone is very jealous of RDB’s rise. It is not just about Aradhana piece, it seems that you are against RDB (where as no one else at SS has tried to pull down SDB and have only spoken positively).

Saurabhji and other friends/fans,
“Now, the mid-1600’s was not that long ago. Thus, as recently as 400 years ago, the best minds in the world held that the earth was the center of the universe and anyone who questioned that belief was hauled before the church courts and forced to renounce his “heresy.”

The Barahamanand’s video has a lot of disturbance. If you can help me in pointing out the particular timings that u would like me to watch his interview, I’ll be thankful.

He is a very fine man, I have met him twice and interviewed him, but not written it down as yet. But I remember what he said, which is why I am interested in listening to what exactly you would like me to hear.

Motiji, i have read all ur comments and the amount of sincere effort u have put in gathering first hand info abt rd and sd, just cannot be dismissed. sir i am completely blown away by ur knowledge abt these matters. and sir do keep up the great work without caring ant naysayers. “veer tum badhe chalo,dheer tum badhe chalo, saamne pahaad ho, singh ki dahaad ho…”

Saurabhji,
I have been digging out material, meeting those who have been in the thick of it all. They have got a lot of love and respect for both father and son, and to doubt their sincerity is like insulting them.
Initially, I was voice recording and taking signatures, now I am using a camcorder. All this material will be given away one day, totally free. I am not in it for money or name. My questions are more about SDB’s achievements than about finding out what RDB did, or did not do.

This I am doing for our future generations to appreciate our greats, for what they achieved in their life time.

Di, my child,
I have never taken a bribe, and tried to avoid giving one, even though I was in a very senior position, awarding contracts. Those who know me personally, are aware that I have led an honest life, all of my 73 years.

I can only repeat what was said 2000 years back, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do’ (or say).

Father will forgive you also Sir. I have lot of trust. SDB was a good father and capable father. If RBD’s last song is also composed by father up above that we all should know the “truth”. Thanks for bringing it out so ably and competently!!

@Bliss on another thread (and only for bliss): The don’t think the analogy of bhakt is appropriate (for all gods are the same and equally gr8). However this is an analogy I would give:
Mozart and Beethovan: Both are gr8s. Both are respected. If you were to watch documentary on both legends, then you will know that Beethovan redefined (music ko ulta kar diya), he broke norms (what was done up until then, he changed it and the western music was changed forever due to his contribution). If you read books and see documentary on B, you will see the same “ADD”, the same energy, the same (almost a) compulsion to create music (as if it was coming from up above) and getting it all out of system (before death makes its claims). Some of the musicians (just like RDB’s documentary) comment on how nearly impossible it is to play the pieces (etc) due to complexities. So in that B was innovator, genius (though one can use musical genius word also for others like Mozart), gifted. I would think other musical gr8s (as SDB) and RDB as desi-beethovan.

This whole debate, as our own Satyam will say is like going in circles, reminds me of Old Puranic times when Shiv bhakts would say Shiva is the greatest, Vishnu bhakts will say Krishna/Vishnu is the one and Brahma bhakts say same about Brahma and wrote books about there own faiths and views known to us Puranas…

You say Trust my word but Don’t Trust Dev anand, Asha and others bcoz I hv talked to each of them and You know the Truth…

SD burman is great, no doubts about that but his son has touched higher greatness and Time is the best Judge and this is visible everywhere after 4 decades in remixes, his songs being used in Ads and Young generation still knowing his name and song…

@saurabh

I don’t know the intricacies and technicalities of Music but do trust my own sense and what gives joy and pleases me and in such case I would trust the words of other greats like Lata, gulzar, Nusrat fateh ali khan( he said give me one song from Aandhi and take my all songs and this was confirmed again by his nephew that in there home its was only RD who used to be played 24 hrs) and many more…. RD sang few songs and to know what he was capable is clear from the doc when Taufiq wonders how pancham used to do that breath sound …

I wouldn’t take Asha Bhonsle’s word at all. They fell in love and she married him.
DevAnand’s word cannot be trusted. He **would** support a son who is *younger* and making modern/westernised music as opposed to the older father 😉

OT
Yes, I think you have responded in the wrong thread.
If satyam moves it, I hope my comment will be moved too. Thanks

been quite hectic @ work
@ Moti uncle: couldnt resist but ‘pat u on the back’
read your first commment and like most instances, my impression is unchanged. Dont know about RDB and SDB and who did what but your ‘passion’ seems inspiring.
Hope me and most here retain that @ your age
btw –would like to hear your views on films OTHER than RDB and SDB as well

lexy, do you know who the below person is? I wonder….
” But yes some do get carried away indulging in such innuendo in each and every sentence. Spelling words certain ways consistently and so on.”
lolz

yes di–u should not get ‘carried away’ like that and learn from me 🙂
“lexy, do you know who the below person is? I wonder….”-which person
ps–oldgold–good point about ‘lack of judegment’ when ‘in love’
also reminds me of some srk fans 😉

good point oldgold
“Of course, I know that my opinions are coloured with fandom”
ya–but ‘fandom’ is still not bad as ‘when in love’
eg as pointed above about asha bhonsle
Hope u dont ‘love’ srk? 😉
cmon……give us a break !!

I’ve been following this discussion more or less and it’s time to make another extended point (!):

1)First of all I’d reiterate what I said elsewhere which is that the ‘collaborative’ aspect here is not being considered by many. It’s a fact of life in many instances throughout the arts.

2)I think that the whole debate largely seems to follow a generational split. I’m not talking actual ‘age’ here necessarily. If you relate more to a certain era you attribute everything good to the representatives of the same and vice versa. There is no ‘critical’ point made either way. In other words something is ‘good’ simply because it belongs to a certain period whether it’s a film or a person or whatever. An analogy here would be political polls where you ask people all sorts of questions about character and religion and morality and so on and when one supports a certain side for ideological reasons one is very likely to think the same person more moral or more religious or what have you. Similarly here if you’re on SD’s side no one who speaks for RD composing some of the music is ‘plausible’ even though these are people intimately involved with the music of both. Specially in an older period directors and even the stars used to be around for all the recording and sit in at an even earlier stage of the process. The idea that no one but the person who actually plays the instruments ‘knows’ what’s going on is a bit strange. But in any case depending on what side one favors witnesses become either plausible or implausible. Again there is not only no deeper aesthetic argument being offered here, there is also no consistent position on the ‘trust’ question. So any number of industry luminaries could be questionable but do we then doubt them similarly when they make other pronouncements?!

3)Beyond a point these debates resemble ones on faith where increasingly each side takes dogmatic positions. Contradictory evidence can always be explained as actually confirming the original position. Notice the shift that often occurs in such debates:

a)I am right and this is the evidence
b)the contrary stuff also proves I am right because it also suggests a conspiracy to conceal what is ‘correct’

4)A more general point to be made here on ‘honesty’ — I think that we can always account relatively easily for lack of honesty when it occurs ‘consciously’ but it is harder to do so when a person isn’t himself (or herself) aware of the same. In other words a lie is what we engage in consciously but what is the status of a lie that we tell ourselves? One could call it a delusion but the point is that there is a difference between this and a lie one advances knowing that it is a lie.

The reason all of this is important is because first of all we shouldn’t be questioning motivations of people without knowing enough about them or at least interacting enough with them. But secondly I think that second ‘grey’ area often offers the greater challenge. I have been in debates many times with people in all sorts of contexts where I have felt they were acting on bad faith but equally often I have felt that they genuinely believed what they said and it was impossible to get them out of their corners in this sense.

Note my position here isn’t about some pretense of neutrality (this is an absurd dream anyway) but about accounting for one’s assumptions. Let me just offer my own example here — I love the movies of the 70s among other reasons because I find them ideologically more apppropriate and certainly more interesting. But this is because I have a certain ideology to begin with. Someone with a very different set of political parameters would find them unacceptable for the very same reasons. The question however is: am I aware of just this fact? If I am I can proceed questioning not just the movies but also my own ideological pre-suppositions. Which is why I’ve offered very strong criticisms of both Amitabh Bachchan and his films on his blog. Because whatever ideological axis I operate around it is not the same as the films. I like the films because these raise certain questions I’m sympathetic to. But where there deviate from the same (as I define the field) I am quite ready to question the very same. Here one could question my politics and we could have a debate on this but I would hardly be supporting those films in any knee jerk fashion nor would I have been unaware of why I was supporting them. As an aside I should add here that I am not at all suggesting I like these films simply because I’ve put them through a political litmus test and these have come out ‘shining’ on the other side. No! There are also other more personal reasons why I like the films but that’s strictly speaking not relevant in a ‘critical’ debate. If I say Awara is one of the greatest Hindi commercial films I should be able to make a case for what that ‘greatness’ rests on. And so forth.

The problem is that in many instances people are emotionally ‘over-determined’ with respect to their choices. In other words there is no space of real awareness in them with respect to their choices. They might say they are but in all their argumentation there is no sense that they are ‘aware’ of what drives these choices. Once again my point here isn’t about what one personally likes or dislikes but why one does so. Of course one doesn’t have to go through life ‘defining’ every choice for oneself in this conscious way but it becomes more necessary in a debate of the sort we’re seeing in this thread. We’ve all grown up with parents who felt that their generations films and sports figures and ‘values’ were the very best. And then the generations that followed felt the very same about their own. Neither position is right or wrong. The real question once again is whether one accounts for the ‘relativity’ of one’s positions or the pre-suppositions that go into determining these. This doesn’t lead one to a position of neutrality (such isn’t possible) but it gives one a greater sense of ‘awareness’ about one’s beliefs.

Whatever I have written here is from my own recorded interviews for which I have the proof.

Hence, I have only mentioned truth as spoken by all those who knew both the Burmans personally, in fact they worked longer and made more money from the younger Burman.

I have written nothing against anyone, then why has this ruckus been created, I do not understand.
…………………………..

Whenever I write from articles by others, I always mention my source, Just like I did in case of Peeyush Sharma’s interview of Shakti Samanta, so that, that source could be questioned further.

Even that interview was considered ‘Dhal mein kuch kala hai’. Shakti Samanta in that interview has given elaborate answers on all his films and his music directors, which none of us can do.

Regarding Shaktiji not allowing recording of the interview, it has happened with me once, when Ameen Sayani requested me not record our 2nd meeting. I have it the first meetng though.

The explanation or reason for this was that Ameenji had said something in the 1st meeting which he would not like to disclose normally. I always take the draft for approval, before making it final. He requested me to not to disclose/publish it, and I obliged willingly. I have his voice recording on that which I shall never disclose.

Shaktiji may have some similar reason, that he might say something off guard.
………………………….

About ‘1942’ song inspired by ‘baap ka maal’, I had quoted from the RDB biography even mentioning the page number.

The biography is written by RDB fan who is knowledgeable about music, but that is also not acceptable. RDB fan may be considered biased for him but never against him.
……………………………

About Asha, the RDB book has this to write, ‘He used to feel lonely as even Ashaji would not come to see him often.’

All his producers, directors, friends, HMV, family, everybody left him and he had no support from anyone.
………………………………….

About Dev Anand I have written that composing of all songs was done at home by SDB. What Dev implied must have been that the mukhra music was composed by RDB, which I don’t doubt at all. At the same time, I want to add here that anything assistants do has to be approved by the boss.

Majrooh Sultanpuri, who has praised RDB many a times, has said in one interview that Burman Dada was extremely ‘khud-daar’ man and would never accept any charity from any one, no chance of a tune of one of his assistants. Every tune he composed was totally his.

Yes, the assistants did their job and kept composing and suggesting and learning. Whether it was, N.Dutta, Suhrid Kar, Jaidev or RDB, they all were given situation and lyrics and asked to come up with tunes. Dada would at the most accept one line of notes here and there and appreciate and show them how to build on this one line. Thus far and no further.
…………………….

I personally like melodious music. One of the assistants of SDB-RDB, in reply to my question, “Aur aap sunte hain puraane gaane?”

Sorry, but I don’t find motiji very credible. He says that all he has is an audio interview which he did not even present.
I find Ashaji, Shammiji, Dev saab, Pt.Shiv Kumar etc much more credible. In “that’s my tune” RDB himself says that he Aradhana was one of his most satisfying works and he does say that he had created many of father’s tunes from an early age. Even Shakti Samantha admits that RDB had a major role in Aradhana’s arrangements, SD just gives it an OK.

If RD himself said in that interview “that’s my tune” that he did create tunes for his father and goes as far as to say that Aradhana was one of his “most satisfactory” works, I see very little reason to ask anyone else. Especially, considering that the likes of Rajesh Khanna and Amit Kumar who were on the sets have already confirmed it. In fact, there were quite a few RDB’s co-workers present in that RDB documentary and some of them are old enough. None of them refused RDB’s contribution in SDB films.

In fact, sometimes RDB passed his own ideas as his fathers. This is also something that can be learned from the documentary. This can also lead to some misunderstanding.

Moreover, I don’t think even your interviews actually discredits RDB, even if they were true. In those interviews what they seem to be saying was that RDB wasn’t present during “Roop Tera mastana” recording. But even if that were true, RD might have already given the ideas for arrangement before the recording since his father was ill. Recording is a one day event, but rehearsals continue for days. It’s possible that while the tunes were mostly SDB’s, the arrangements and singing style were largely decided by RDB and KK. And those assistants have to be at least around 70 years old since Aradhana released more than 40 years ago. I doubt they will be able to remember every detail since they were just recording. Also, everyone seems to agree that RD did some important work as an assistant.

We know very well that there was a lot of politics going on against RDB towards the end. Some betrayed RDB, some blackmailed others to not work with RD . And sometimes lesser musicians might like to take credit for things falsely and become famous. I simply don’t find your evidence strong enough,even if you are telling the truth about the interview, sorry.

RDB was also an assistant in Bandini and Guide. And some sources say that all the mukhdas in Jewel Thief were RD’s idea.

Yes, they are in their 70s. But these greats in their 70s will tell you everything you want to know about each and every note of each song composed in Aradhana, or for that matter, any movie they took part those days.

Did you know in reality which instrument is being played in ”Mere sapnon ki rani’ in 2nd and 3rd interludes, when Sujit Kumar moves mouth organ over his lips. Now that I have aroused your curiosity, you might try and find out. But before this only these gentlemen in 70s knew.

You want to live in your world of fantasy. You don’t want to face the truth. I have no time for you. Bye.

“Thanks Alex. Glad u r back. I don’t like to be ‘Jack of all’. My interviews continue to keep me busy. I expect to meet Shiv Kumar Sharma soon, and Waheedaji after that. I am trying to meet Amitabh Bachchan too.”
Hmm Moti uncle
So do u meet these for interviews as part of your job or just hobby
How do u arrange it
Pray tell us

It is not a job, but a hobby for me. Internet contains good and both. Anyone can write anything and in a jiffy it reaches all over the world.

Finding contrary information about SDB & RDB, I took it up upon myself to get to the bottom and find out the truth for our future generations. One of my first interviews was with Mr Kersi Lord (Dada Saheb Phalke Award winner), who has been in the film industry for over 60 years. It was an eye opener. I decided to voice record my interviews, type and get it signed.

What Kersi said was that RDB wasn’t even there during recording of ‘Roop tera mastana’. Subsequently, I have recorded his interview on camcorder. He lives in Bandra and anyone can meet him.

Subsequently, I met Manohari Singh whose interview I am reproducing here. Except Manoharida, rest all are alive, but those who have been bought up on lies, can’t fathom truth.

Manohari Singh’s Interview – October 13, 2009

Q. Please tell us about your association with Dada Burman.
Manohari Singh: He (SDB) always maintained a style of his own. He always gave good music and his songs used to be like nature, like ‘matti smell’, like earth smell. His music used to be like that. Folk tunes, Bhatiali, all this sort of …east Bengal Bhatiali and east Bengal folk tunes also, all natural tunes of our nature, not ready made composed but natural songs. From that kind of tunes he used to develop and make songs.

Q. When did you meet him first? Can you please tell us?
MS: I met him in 1958, when I came to Bombay from Calcutta. Salil Choudhary brought me here. Salilda was very fond of me. We met in Calcutta when I was working for HMV – Calcutta. I was very young, some 24-25 years of age. 1958 he brought me here. He used to tell me every time when he used to come from Bombay1958. Salilda used to tell me that there is nothing left in Calcutta now. See all this partition and all. Not much picture also. Everything is finished in Calcutta. “Come with me” all the time he used to say.

In 1958 I came with him and he introduced me to every Music Director. We started from Juhu side. In Juhu there was nothing, only some Bungalows of Anil Biswas, Kishoreda and song writer and dancer Prem Dhawan. Salilda lived in Andheri (East) across the level crossing. He had a music room in Bimal Roy’s Mohan studios.
Then Salilda brought me and said let’s go and meet all the music directors. First he took me to Anil Biswas, then to Kishoreda who was staying next to him.

Then he told me let’s go to Burman Dada’s house. Then we went to Dada’s house, ‘Jet’. Burman Saab was told, ‘He plays Flute, he plays Saxophone’ and he said “Good, send him tomorrow. I have some background work in Bombay Lab.”

After that Salilda took me to Naushad Saab, he was staying at Carter Road. Then he introduced me to C. Ramchandra, staying in a Bungalow in that corner. Anna was staying there. He used to be called ‘Anna’. Chitra Gupt and Madan Mohan were also staying in Khar area. Then he took me to Mahalaxmi famous Studio and introduced me to Shankar Jaikishan and then Nayyar Saheb.

After one or two days I was called to Bombay Lab by Burman Saab for background music of ‘Sitaron Se Aage’ (1958). I played some key flute, but couldn’t get chance to play the saxophone because the situation was like that the music was like that. Laxmikant (of the Laxmikant Pyarelal) was playing the mandolin, and Sumant Raj was there for flute, and Jaidev was there very much as assistant, and Pancham was also there,

After I played whatever was given to me, then Laxmikant came to me and asked me, “Accha aap kidhar Calcutta sen aaye to kya kya bajate hain. I told him. RD and Sumant Raj also came, all musicians came to me. They all said very good, very good, “Aap aisa aisa bajate hain, bahut accha hai. Aap idhar rehne wale hain?” I said yes, yes.

Those days all the musicians used to come and they never used to stay here for long. They used to come and go. From Calcutta so many musicians came, after one month or so, bhag gaya. Those days in ’57, ’58, ’59 so many musicians came for one month, one and half month and go back. Unless and untill they get a good break, then only they will have confidence and stay back. Again they used to come back. Musicians like Shiv Kumar, he came once, and went back. And again he came back. Away from home, they were all scared and unhappy in new surroundings.

So, after playing flute for ‘Sitaron Se Aage’, I was called by Burman Saab once or twice for some other picture. Then after that for sometime I wasn’t called. Then I went and met Pancham. There Laxmikant was there for some sitting. Laxmikant asked me “Aap Mandolin bhi bajate hain na”. I said yes. “Accha aap Mandolin leke aao kal. Kal aap Mandolin leke aayenge Navketan mein.” So I went there with Mandolin. Then I played that song of ‘Kala Bazaar’ Laxmikant and myself, ‘Achcha Ji Main Haari, Piya Maan Jao Naa’.

Q. So he had a heart attack?
MS. Attack he had.

Q. Which was the first time?
MS First time…, once he had eye operation at that time he had a little problem. Then after that, in his last year he had a heart attack, when he died.

Q. Dada, ‘Aradhana’ picture I will come to. In Aradhana, Kersi was there, and you were also there?
MS: Yes.

MS. Burman Saab expired in Jet. After he died, then Raheja took over the ‘Jet’ and he gave one small flat here, very good flat it was, where Pancham and his mother were staying. Pancham ka wahan ek ‘Odina’ tha, flat liya idhar, us ‘Odina’ mein kaam hua. Accha remarkable kaam hua ‘Odina’ mein’. So Odina was there.

Other Inputs by Manohari Singh and His Family Members:
Visit to Hindustan Recording Company in 1945-’46:
Manohari Singh had visited the office of M/s Hindustan Recording Company sometime in 1945-1946 for work, and found two photographs hanging there , one of K. L. Saigal and the other of a gentleman wearing a turban (a saafa), looking regal. He asked them as to who was the turbaned gentleman in the photograph, and was told that it was Kumar Sachin Deb Burman, being from the Royal family of Tripura, he was wearing a turban.
Sachinda, in his autobiography has written this about ‘Pagri’:
“There is a proverb in Hindi, ‘Raag, Rasui and Pagri, kabhi kabhi ban jaye’ (good music, delicious food and properly tied turban are made accidentally).

Meera Dev Burman:
Manohari Singh’s daughter Mithu had this to say about Meera Dev Burman,
We (she and some of her siblings, in all there were five sisters and two brothers), studied in boarding schools and stayed in Hostels. Whenever we came to visit our parents in Bombay for our holidays, Mrs Burman would insist that we go over to her large house and enjoy ourselves. She would regularly send over her car with driver to fetch us so that we had no excuse whatsoever. We would all go over to spend the day. Mrs Manohari Singh, who used to accompany the kids, agreed with this statement.
SDB’s height: On being asked, Manohari Singh said that he was very tall, and his height would be about 6 feet.
Manohari Singh’s health: Unfortunately, both his kidneys have failed and he is on dialysis thrice a week. Otherwise, he is very active and regularly plays Saxophone, Flute, etc., and gets standing ovation in performances all over India. His memory is very sharp and he is a very mild mannered gentleman.
* * * * *

Richa is daughter of my dear friend, my business partner and my colleague who assists me in these interviews.

The interview posted by me was signed by Manoharida.

I realize why a few youngsters are not able to believe what is being said even by these stalwarts like Manoharida and others. Because they have been fed on misinformation all their life, and are not able to think differently and accept the truth.

I remembered an anecdote which is not about music, but does tell you why some people don’t believe when confronted with the truth.

Years back, two of us were visiting a dry state where there was strict prohibition. Our local contact, a young guy in his late twenties, offered to treat us to hard drinks in the evening – a choice between IMFL and Scotch.

Naturally, we preferred scotch. No sooner we all said ‘cheers’ and took a swig, the 2 of us spat it out, as it was some Indian whiskey (IMFL – Indian made foreign liquor). The host was surprised and wouldn’t believe it was not real thing. He had paid the price and was used to it, having never tasted the real thing.

Next time my friend took sealed Scotch bottle which he had brought personally from Frankfurt. This time we were in for a surprise, as our host insisted that it was not testing good at all, as compared to the real thing he had offered us.
.
The fact was that he was used to his stuff all his adult life, and faithfully believed his taste buds.

Haha
Moti uncle
Who are u interviewing next?
Why don’t u publish these interviews or post them here
Sure satyam will happily create a permanent link for them on the sidebar
Ps-when u interview bachchan plz take satyam along (& Richa as well..)
Ps2- by the way there is a girl here called Di who is your Die hard fan girl

Who is going to be next? It all depends on their schedules. Sometimes it takes months to get a date, cancelled at the last minute due to some other urgent assignment. After all they are meeting me for the love of the maestro, of their own accord. There is no payment here.

Satyam is welcome to join me, but I get a days notice sometimes. But too many people may not be a good idea.

Di is an intelligent girl, but is she ready for the real scotch?

Out of 30 odd interviews, I can share only some which have appeared earlier in a book on SDB, published from Bangladesh. The rest are being handed over by me, completely free, to be published into a book from India in a year’s time. I am unable to share the unpublished ones.

Here is another interview which Neeraj ji (lyricist of ‘Prem Pujari’ and other movies) gave me, and is already part of the book. (I had to add Question: or We: as there is no way to have questions in bold text, like it is in original text.)

After introducing ourselves, “We have come to meet you. We are S.D. Burman’s fans, and would like to know about him from you.”
Neeraj: “I too, am S. D. Burman Saheb’s fan.”

Question: How did you meet S. D. Burman?
I had a great desire to write lyrics for Dada S. D. Burman. I took a chance once and tried to meet him, but was not allowed to enter. Then, one day I met Dev Anandji. Mr G. B. Jhunjhunwala, a friend of mine, had arranged this meeting. He was the Income tax Commissioner here.

Dev Saheb said to me, “Neeraj, I like your language. We will work someday together.” When ‘Prem Pujari’ was launched, I read S. D. Burman’s name as its Music Director. I wrote to Dev Saheb, “You had promised me”. Dev Saheb replied immediately, “Please come over”.

When I went and met Dada, he played a tune for me and said, “Write lyrics to this tune. I want simple lyrics that are easily understood. I don’t want Gul-o-gul or Shama parwana words to be used! The song should begin with the words ‘Rangeela re.’
I replied in affirmative.

Question: Did Dev Anand say this, or Dada?
No, Dada had said this. Dada continued, “She is singing, holding a glass of alcohol. The situation is that she has come all the way from Khemkaran. Seeing Dev Saheb with another girl, she is very upset and loses control, pours her heart out while singing.” I replied that I had understood the situation.
He played the tune for me. I came back and wrote down the lyrics.

Dev Saheb had told me, “Narrate the lyrics to me first. Dada has told me to get the lyrics written to synchronise with his tunes. Otherwise he won’t use them!”
To which Dev Saheb had replied, “I have already reserved his return train ticket. He is a Professor and could always return to his job. It doesn’t matter, if his lyrics are not acceptable.”

Dev Saheb once again said, “Do recite the lyrics to me first”.
After listening to the lyrics, Dev Saheb was all praise and exclaimed, “Neeraj, fantastic! I have never heard such lyrics before! What a beautiful song you have written. Wah! Wah! Wah! Wah!”

He picked up the telephone and called up Dada Burman, “You must hear his lyrics, what splendid words he has written”. Burman Saheb heard the song and was completely memerised. “Wah! Wah!”, he was all praise.

Next day, while I was sitting with Dada, Dev Saheb called and said,” I am going to bring Neeraj with me.” Dada replied, “He is already here, you come over.”

Dev Saheb came over. Dada inquired as to where I was staying? “Santa Cruz”, I replied. To which Dada said, “My car will come there in the morning, every morning the car will come at nine to fetch you. You come here and we both would work together.”
I said fine, and the work started therafter.

Dada was very pleased with my work. Whatever tunes Dada gave me, I wrote my lyrics perfectly to match them. All his songs became big hits.

I get royalty for my poetry from all over the world. It is amazing that the maximum royalty I get is for my lyrics written to Dada’s music. It is worth mentioning here, that I get royalty to the tune of one lakh for Dada’s songs!

Question: You get royalty of Rupees One Lakh for lyrics written to S. D. Burman’s music?

The lyrics which I wrote for S. D. Burman’s music get me a royalty of Rupees One Lakh every year!

Question: I see, so you get the maximum for Dada’s music?
Only for Dada’s music! His songs are played the most. Songs by others are played sometimes once, maybe twice. Somewhere ‘Bhai zara dekhke chalo’ is played, elsewhere some other song is played, but mostly Dada’s songs are played.

There never has been another Music Director like him! He was a phenomenon, a music director par excellence!

Question: Your lyrics which we have heard…………
Such poetry has never been composed. ‘Sapno ki geetanjali, mandir masjid’, such words have never been written (Neeraj exclaims ecstatically).

Question: Please tell us, would Dada create the tune first and you would write lyrics to fit in?

I used to write to his tunes. All songs have been written that way.

Question: You would not have written that way earlier. Did you have any problem in doing so?

No, I had no difficulty. On the contrary I preferred it that way, because tune is a metre (rhythm). The poetry that we write is written according to the metre.

The difference is that poetry by itself is static writing (with no melody, but with rhythm). There is no music in it. And the tune has action (expression oriented) in it. On screen it is enacted upon. The tune has breaks (meaningful gaps) in it, and there is timing involved. I have written this song:

See, Dada has given a gap here, this is the gap, understand?
Poetry is serious, I am reciting and you are listening to it. There is no acting involved. In other words poetry has no acting in it.

Question: There is no acting in poetry?
No, how will there be acting in poetry? It is simple. I am reciting it, and you are listening to it.
In cinema, the action is on the screen. If the audience does not follow, in case of a mistake, they can’t ask the screen. That’s why simple words can be easily remembered. ‘Ae bhai, zara dekh ke chalo’, and ‘Rangeela re’ can be easily recalled.

Dada used to experiment, what others would not dare! For instance, the song, ‘Phoolon ke rang se, dil ki kalam se’, starts with the antra (subsequent stanzas after mukhda), the mukhda (beginning) comes later!

Question: The antra Is at the beginning?
The antra is at the beginning, (he replies smilingly). Antra is in the beginning only!

There is no mukhda in this at all (giggles).
This is poetry, it is poetry, (He says with the excitement of a child).

He further broke away from the existing trends, saying,
“Now Neeraj, in one mukhda, we will introduce four genres of music:
First two lines would be based on folk,
The third line will be based on classical,
The fourth line on pop,
The fifth line on qawwali”

Before composing the music, Dada would try to understand the story, and create music according to the situation. To get to the heart of the scene, sometimes he would even enact the role of the actor on whom the song was to be picturised.
I remember one such instance when his car came early to fetch me. I reached his home before ten in the morning. No one was allowed to visit him before ten in the morning.

Question: No one was allowed before ten in the morning?
No one before ten (giggles)! Because, he used to do his morning chores.

It so happened that when I came downstairs, the servants opened the door for me. I saw Dada topless, in shorts only; dancing like this (shows dance movements).

I greeted him, “Dada, Namaskar”
He said, “quiet, quiet, quiet”
I repeated, “Dada, Namaskar!”
Dada: “QUIET, I am about to create a tune. It is coming to me. Quiet!”
What could I say! I had to sit down quietly.

After some time, Dada called out to me, “Come, come, sit closer.”
I moved nearer. That’s when he created the tune of ‘Megha chhaye aadhi raat, bairan ban gayi’.

Question: I see! So this is the story of the song ‘Megha chhaye’? That song has a combination of both western and Indian classical music!
He combined western with Indian due to the situation, he did that!

Dada and bhabhi (elder brother’s wife) used to invite me over for dinner. Dada would say, “Look, one and a half pegs are all that you will get. One and a half pegs, no more!”

Question: No more?
No more!

Once what happened, Dada, Bhabhi and I sat down for a drink. Dada used to drink ‘Old Smuggler’ whisky. He poured one peg. We continued chatting. After that he poured half peg more, saying “Enough, now no more, no more, that’s it.” We all drank one and a half pegs each.

Then what happened – it was a rainy evening – Bhabhi said, “Let’s go up to the terrace to see what’s there.” We went upstairs when she asked me, “Have you seen our Manidhar snake?”
“Manidhar snake? No, no Bhabhi, I have not seen it”
“Come, I’ll show it to you.” she said.

Question: What is a Manidhar snake?
Manidhar snake is one that has a mani (a precious stone) in it’s hood.
It had just rained, and the grass in the back garden would shine every time the lightening struck. The wet grass would glisten in different places and she would exclaim, “See, there it goes, there it is now!” (Neeraj giggles)

Question: So did you finally see the snake?
(Laughs) Nothing was there. When the reflection of the lightening was falling in different places on the wet grass, she understood it as the movement of the Manidhar snake!

Question: Bhabhi said this to you?
Yes, She was a bit high (giggles).

Question: Bhabhi used to drink?
Yes, Bhabhi, Dada and I, we three used to drink together.

Question: Each got a peg and a half?
One and a half pegs each. No more, not an ounce more (giggles)!

Bhabhi was very fond of me. She loved me like her own child. I would touch Dada’s feet as a mark of respect. Dada was like my elder brother, no…, I used to respect him like my Guru.

Question: How old were you as compared to Dada?
I was very young at that time. I must have been about forty years old.

Question: Dada was born in Nineteen Hundred and Six.
I was born in Nineteen Hundred and Twenty-Five. What would be the difference?

Question: Nineteen years.
Nineteen years!

Yes.
There has never been, and will never be, a Music Director like Dada.

Question: There has never been such a Music Director?
No, never! Dada had this quality, a great quality, that he would be completely immersed in music all of twenty-four hours. Not interested in his own publicity or in any gossip, he would not go anywhere to promote himself. All day long, you go in the evening he is at his home, in the afternoon also he is awake, always involved in his music.

Question: Involved In his music?
Yes, creating tunes! And what immortal melodies he created!
His speciality was that he would not bother to stick to the tune of the mukhdas and the antras.
After the Mukhda, he would give the break of the antra’s tune.

Question: After the Mukhda?
In Shankar Jaikishin’s style, the tune is from beat to beat.
From beat to beat?

Question: He (SDB) used to break!
SDB used to break.
I asked Dada, why did he give a break?
He replied, “Else it becomes monotonous. If you keep one tune of both Mukhda and Antra, one tune only for all, it becomes monotonous.

Question: How often he breaks the tunes!
Often he breaks the tunes.
So, it is necessary.
This style, this was S. D. Burman’s signature style.

There is a difference in the tune of the Mukhda and the antra.
There was a difference in the Mukhda and antra!
In each Antra itself he changes the tune. He gives the variation in the tune of the same antra.
Otherwise it would become monotonous!

Question: You left and went away! Why?
There was no work. S. D. Burman had stopped working. Shankar Jaikishan’s group had split up. Roshan was no more. I had become successful with them all. Iqbal Qureshi had died. All my songs with Iqbal Qureshi had been successful. ‘Subah na aayi, shaam na aayi, jis din teri yaad na aayi.’ ‘Woh hum na the, woh tum na the’ (1964 Film ‘Cha Cha Cha’), that was my song!

Question: You remember all of your songs?
No, I don’t remember all. Only those I spoke about, the special ones I remember. None of my songs ever flopped.

Question: None of your songs, with any music director, ever flopped?
Never!

Question: When did you start working for the film industry?
In 1960, a programme ‘Neeraj ki Gunjan Samaroh’ was held. Chief Minister Y. B. Chauhan gifted me a purse of Rupees Five Thousand. R. Chandra, who had made ‘Barsat ki Raat’ was present there. His assistant had taken tuitions under me. He wanted to become a hero in the movie. He told me, “We would like you to write the lyrics for our movie.”

I replied that since I didn’t have lyrics ready for them, they could use my existing poetry. I couldn’t leave my existing job and stay in Bombay.

So they used my entire poetry for their film, ‘Nai Umar ki Nai Fasal’. The song ‘Carvan guzar gaya’ was a huge success. After that, I became well known in the industry. Subsequently, Dev Saheb approached me.

Question: Which year did you say?
1960.

We: Which songs of S. D. Burman did you like then?
I liked all of his songs. ‘Kaun hai tera, musafir, jayega kahaan’, ‘Aaj phir jeene ki tamanna hai’. There is not a single song which I didn’t like!

That’s true!
Excellent, superb, he was a brilliant Music Director! He was the Music Director of the learned people.

We: Yes, music director of the learned!
That’s why his immensely popular tunes are evergreen.

We: The anecdote narrated to us about his dispensing one and a half pegs, is really interesting!
He used to offer me a drink, with a lot of love. Dev Saheb used to say, “He is benevolent with you. He invites you for a meal, and offers a drink as well (giggles)! He used to love me a lot.

We: How were the relations between the father and the son?
Very good! They loved each other very much.

We: Any other anecdotes?
That’s all. Bhabhi would call me over for a meal and serve Macher Jhol (famous Bengali way of cooking fish).

We: Neeraj ji, we are very grateful to you.
It was very nice meeting you.

I don’t know who exactly is living in the fantasy world. The film itself credits RDB as an associate composer. RDB himself states that Aradhana was one of his most satisfactory works. There were other notable witnesses for RD. And you are saying that RDB had no contribution in the film at all! Why would anyone ever call a work satisfactory if he didn’t do any notable work ? Aren’t you kind of accusing RDB and others of lying , but maintain that you and your musicians are honest?

By the time, Aradhana released, RD had been working as an assistant for more than a decade and had already done some successful independent films with his own signature style. Are you saying that a 30 year old man of RD’s caliber was sitting there and watching his father and team work without giving any serious input and yet his signature style was present in the film? Sorry, but you are the one who is being unreasonable.

And if you went that far to take their interview and autograph, you should have taken a video. Wouldn’t a video be a much stronger proof? Autographs and voices can be faked quite easily. And on top of that most of the notable assistants that worked in Aradhana team are already dead.

I am not saying that you are lying, but even if your interviews were true, it’s really hard to conclude anything from it.

There isn’t any film of SDB where the style is unmistakably RD’s but RD wasn’t even involved as an assistant.

an interesting piece.. I skimmed through portions but read most of the SD stuff. It seems to me that case isn’t quite as clear cut as even the author makes it because he acknowledge RD’s role as much more important for years leading upto this album than many would like to believe.

But leaving this aside I think it is the whole ‘collaborative’ aspect that hasn’t been focused on enough. Is it for example plausible that father and son were never completely alone or when they were that they never ever discussed much of the work each was doing even though RD was very involved with his father’s work. Again this piece seems to suggest there were debates but it is very hard to separate individual contributions to a collaboration and even moreso decide how much an idea counts for? The author’s claim that the album was attributed to RD because it just sounded like the work he did after this or was more consonant with a newer India’s youth aspirations is not one I find entirely convincing. In fact the question should be read in reverse! Why is there much more continuity between Aradhana and RD’s work rather than between this and SD’s work that preceded it?! Note how Shammi Kapoor said in an interview that Gaata Rahe was RD’s composition. So there is a certain continuity of signature.

To be honest I am not heavily invested in whether the father composed the soundtrack or the son. Neither composer’s career depends on this. But to the extent that there is doubt and conflicting testimony (I do not necessarily consider the word of musicians loyal to SD as the final statement.. since I don’t think that from Asha to Shammi to whoever people are just making up stuff!). The most reasonable explanation to my mind (and following on some of these debates in other contexts elsewhere in the arts.. in the West) is that there is collaboration at work here and probably before this. Separating contributions then becomes a very thorny problem. Note how the piece says that RD convinced his father to retain Roop tera mastana. How many other such debates happened? For example they might have had debates on the arrangements, SD might have accepted suggestions on various ‘tunes, so on and so forth. The idea that there is a ‘pure’ SD here who does not owe anything at all to his son or never really took valuable inputs from his son just because the latter was more attuned to ‘Western’ sounds is a bit hard to swallow. and this really is the crux of the matter. It does not have to be this absolutist position where either SD composed all of Aradhana or RD did. I can think of plenty of midway positions. And getting back to the author here I think he is weakest on his claim that the confusion occurred because RD was more naturally associated with the newer kind of music. So he seems to chalk this up to a ‘sociological’ bias.

Recall that Asha anecdote where she says that Shakti samantha valued SD far more when RD hadn’t of course reached his peak. In one instance after RD’s compositions were constantly being rejected by Samantha as not good enough he got a bit frustrated and on the next suggestion just told the latter that this was actually a tune from his father. Instantly Samantha approved it! There is a lot of grey area here. One really has to look at all the testimony.

Agreed. The point is how many songs SD did which were remotely similar to Aradhana (after he left assisting his father)? and How many songs RD did were similar to Aradhana and you will get your answer 🙂

I will listen to Abhimaan and say in heartbeat it is SD’s.It is his signature. I am willing to concede tunes of Aradhana might be SDs but orchestration is definitely RDs.

Thanks on behalf of those who read and liked this Moti uncle
“satyam is welcome to join me, but I get a days notice sometimes. But too many people may not be a good idea.”-satyam IS v keen to go with u..

“Di is an intelligent girl, but is she ready for the real scotch?”
Di -just are what Moti uncle is saying …. 🙂

Q. Mr Kersi Lord, please tell us when did you meet Dada S. D. Burman, how did you meet him, and something about him?
KL. My daddy was SD Burman’s pet. When first Burmansaab came to Bombay, he was staying in Marine Drive ‘Sea Green’ Hotel and we were staying at Grant Road at the time. Outside our building was a whore-joint, a prostitute-joint, and Burmansaab had such a simple nature that despite this he would walk into that lane, and shout out “Cawas”. Daddy would go down, “Kya Dada, kya ho gaya?” to which Mr. Burman would respond “Cawas, mere ko gaari lene ka hai, kya karega hum log?”

My daddy was very fond of cars. He said, “Hum log jaake dekhenge na.”
A short while later, together they went and chose Mr. Burman’s first car, a black Austin.

Q. Which year was that?
KL. I don’t know. I was very young. I had not even started playing at that time. Then after about three months – four months, again he came,
“Cawas, neeche aao.”
“Dada, kya ho gaya?”
“Yeh gadi kiska hai?”
“Dada, aap ka gaadi hai.”
“Toh mere ko raaste ka tax kyon bharne ka, meri gaadi ka tax main kyon bharoon?”

He was that innocent. He didn’t know he had to pay road tax. So, daddy had to explain to him that the reason he had to pay the tax was because he was using the roads. Like that, such a simpleton!
Mr. Burman always dressed in a white kurta with beautiful, starched Bengali pleated sleeves (rubbed with some stone), white dhoti and carried on his left shoulder a colourful ‘Kapda ka Thaila.’

Q. Kapda thaila?
KL. You know, old people used to have.

Q. Artists and painters used to carry?
KL. Haan, correct, funny, funny colours, orange, yellow, etc., but clothes always white. He was always like that. That was Mr Burman.
The first time I met him was when he came to see daddy. Then when I got into the line, slowly, slowly, they found out that I also play, so whenever they required more musicians, they used to call me.

Q. Please tell more about your dad with Burman.
KL. They had gone to Madras also, for a couple of recordings. The first time daddy had gone to Madras was with Mr. Burman. The producer was from there. In the beginning, the producers used to call the important musicians there and a few musicians were taken from there for the work. Later, South companies had their offices in Bombay. Then most of the work was done here.

Q. You remember (for) which pictures your dad went to South? Bahar must have been one of them? It was an AVM production.
KL. Yeah, yeah, ‘Bahar’ definitely. ‘Bahar’ was which year? Because, if it was somewhere around ‘50s, it must be same picture.

Bahar was 1951.
KL. And ‘Baazi’?

Baazi was 1950.
KL. I have also played in Baazi.

1950, you would have been about fifteen years?
KL. Yeah, I started my carrier by the age of fourteen. I was playing when I was fourteen. I started in late ’47 or early ’48. You got the release dates? Then, a film would normally take about one and a half to two years till the release.
I started with Naushad first. Then slowly, slowly, people came to know about me.

Q. Daddy was with him in 1950s?
KL. Yeah, yeah, daddy was his pet. Without daddy, Mr. Burman wouldn’t do anything.

Q. How much age difference was there between these two gentlemen?
KL. I don’t know. My dad was born in 1911.

Dada Burman was born in 1906.
KL. That old? He was older than daddy? He always looked like Dada, Bengali style.

Another thing, he was very ‘kanjoos’, very rarely he used to offer tea to anybody. So much so that, people working in his sitting room, all musicians, even his assistants, Anand Bakshi might be there or anyone else, around one o’clock, he would say “Chalo, mera khane ka time ho gaya hai. Aap log khana khake aaiye. Meera, mera khana lagao.”

And, because of daddy, anytime, I or my dad used to visit him, he will offer tea also. And all those sitting fellows always cursed, “Kya hai? Hum log ko kabhi chai bhi nahin poochta, tum log kuch karte bhi nahin, tum log ko chai pilata hai.” He was like that.
Then another habit of Mr. Burman was, he used to forget everyone’s names, like Maruti Rao, Manohari, Basu, all were sitting. He would be so engrossed in his music, he would forget the names. He would call, “Arre, arre, arre, arre.” Then we have to remind him, “Arre Basu, Basuda”. “Haan Basu, suno, aisa, aisa.”

So later on, when Pancham would visit Bombay during his school holidays, he would come for Dada’s sittings. When Burmansaab would want to ask him something even though he was his son, he would say ”Arre…Arre…Aree..” and . So we would remind him “Dada, Pancham.” “Han, Pancham suno.” He used to forget his son’s name also. He was like that.

But this was mainly because he was all the time engrossed in the music. His mind would be only thinking of music, music, music.

Q. That was about your dad and Dada Burman. Tell us about you and Dada Burman.
KL. I played in all his pictures after ’50-’51, mostly all the pictures.

Q. Till which year?
KL. Till he died.

Q. Which means it included lovely music of ‘Aradhana’.
KL. In ‘Roop tera mastana’ I played the accordion.

Q. All songs of Aradhana are lovely. And how much part RD played in this?
KL. According to me, I don’t think RD was present, I don’t remember seeing RD anywhere in the studios.
But people say that he was there and ‘Roop Tera Mastana’ is his song, but I don’t know. Even for the song recording, he was not there.
And I confirmed with Manohari also, who was his assistant. Manohari also said, “No, I don’t think Pancham was involved.”
Maybe, he must have been sitting there, I don’t know, I’m not sure (about his sitting there).
Everybody asks us whether RD was there, but I said, for the recording he was not there. And sitting I don’t know. I didn’t play only for Mr. Burman. I played for all the top music directors. So, we couldn’t be involved in every recording.
So, I don’t think RD’s involvement was there in ‘Aradhana’.

Q. There is an article written on you and Manohari, that Dada, when he was giving music, making music for ‘Roop tera mastana’, the start he wasn’t getting right, and you played your Accordion, and Manohari played his Saxophone, and then the start was made (created) by both of you?
KL. (He starts shaking his head gesturing ‘No’.)

KL. Another thing about you people (He was talking about press, we were not press, only SDB lovers.) I am going little bit off track now. Somebody wrote one book in Pune, years back, on Pancham. Whatever the mistakes in that book, – mistakes are there, hundred percent, I vouch for it, those mistakes still continue. Because when anybody writes a new book, he refers to that book, so the publishing of wrong information continues.

Q. Even the start which is there, you know starting with ‘Roop tera mastana’, that is done by SDB only himself?
KL. Yeah! Yeah! S.D. Burman and his team.
See, I only go for the recording. So, when I went to the studio, it was at Famous-Tardeo, so Burmanda called me to one side, “Suno”.
He always talked in mono syllables, not long sentences. “Kersi, yeh bahut romantic gana hai. Ek fire place hai. Ek hero ek heroine hai. Baarish mein bheege hue hai, aur ekdam romance mein hai. Tumko jo bhi karna hai, karo.”
“Whatever you want to do, you do it.” That is what he told me.
So, lots of things I played on my own. Most of the things were given by Manohari, but all the fillings in the song, some extra things in the music which I felt like playing, I played it. And they liked it. When they appreciate it, you feel like giving more and more.

Q. When you were called there, from that moment till the actual song was recorded, how long did it take for this song?
KL. Four hours, maximum. Nothing more than four hours, from scratch. We didn’t know what we were going to play. Notation was given on the set, in the studio. Nine o’clock was the starting time and mostly by one o’clock we would pack up.

Q. But before you were called, they might have done some rehearsal?
KL. That work they would do in the sitting room itself. Making a song is a very difficult thing. First you have to get the lyrics written. Those days, songs were according to the situation in the picture. So generally, lyrics came first. The Producer and Director would also have to approve the lyrics. Then came the melody and then the music arrangement.

Q. SD changed the system in ‘50s only. First music and then the lyrics. That system is continuing even today.
KL. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe.

Q. Even for that style, Begum Akhtar, I have got somewhere written, that she said that music plays more important part than the lyrics.
KL. Begum Akhtar said that?

Q. I will send you the article. In fact I will send you two articles. SD said this earlier, and Begum Akhtar, much later said the same thing.

* * * * *

Kersi Lord – II

Q. When SD used to sing, can you tell us about his style of singing and what he used to do?
KL. According to my knowledge his style was typically East Bengal folk style. He was from that area. I believe, he was a Prince from a royal family.
One thing I will tell you, I didn’t go for sittings but whenever he used to be in the studio, when he would sing his songs, he wouldn’t allow anyone who was not required in the studios, no guests, only musicians who are playing. Those musicians who are not playing, they would have to go sit outside. Maybe he wanted to concentrate.
And you were asking me about ‘Amar Prem’ song, whether RD composed or SD composed? It had Mr. Burman’s style but even if RD composed it, he will have composed it in his dad’s style only, so that style and quality matches, goes hand in hand, you know that style of song.
When I used to do arrangements, so many musicians, like Raees Khan, – he is a fantastic musician – when you tell him to play something, he will say no, this is not Sitar ank. I am just giving an example. Because he is my friend, I can talk about him. Whenever I used to write for Raees Khan, I used to just write its outline, “Raees bhai, yeh aisa aisa hai, aapko jaisa bajana hai, kuch bhi change karna hai, freedom is entirely yours.” So, that type of freedom. In the same way, being the great son of a great father, SD and RD although they had completely unique styles would still naturally have some similarities as well.

In reply to a question on ‘Mili’, Mr Kersi Lord talks about this interesting episode:
KL When you play for so many recordings, so many songs, how can you remember all these things? I don’t claim these numbers but people who interviewed me have said, “You have done more than twenty five to thirty thousand songs”. I tell every interviewer including you, “When you write this, you are saying this. I am not saying it”.
Before that, interviewers claim that when I started in ’48, I played four to five songs a day including Sunday, no Sunday holiday. They calculated that even playing and average of three songs a day would sum up this figure. Kushal (Gopalkar) of ‘Swar Alaap’ magazine had done this calculation and had mentioned it in one of his articles.

But, in ’67 – ’68, when I was the Chairman of the ‘Cine Musicians Association’, what used to happen was that out of 700-800 members, only those top, the cream used to play 4 to 5 songs a day. And the mediocre and below average musicians would not get any work.
So, I made a rule that no musician can play more than two songs a day. That rule is still valid now, morning and afternoon, or one and a half shift for background music, that’s all. I got lots of abuses from my friends and made many enemies. But that’s OK.

Q. You said that he used to stay in that hotel in Marine Drive, which hotel?
KL. SD used to stay in that hotel in Marine Drive, ‘Sea Green’. We were in Grant Road, where he used to come. After ‘Sea Green’ he stayed in a Hotel in Khar. Khar is much afterwards. He stayed in ‘Sea Green’ when he was an established composer. Then they shifted to ‘The Jet’.

* * * * *

Q. Will you please tell us some anecdotes?
KL.
• Like, because you mentioned ‘Chote Nawab’. Mehmood, a very old friend, he used to learn Bongos from me, when he was not even an extra. When we used to work at Filmstan, his sister was Minu Mumtaz, the famous dancer, and he used to come and work as an extra.
He always wanted to learn Bongos. So, any time he was there, he would come and sit next to me, and I would show him something on the Bongos. This is how we became good friends. Then talking about ‘Chote Nawab’: Pancham, Mehmood, dance director Suresh and me, we all had a single chipped tooth (shows his upper middle teeth (incisors), with the corner of the tooth chipped off), exactly the same cut on the same tooth, same size and shape. Every time we four met, we would never say ‘Hi’. We would smile showing our chipped teeth. Now, I am the only fellow left. Sad, no!

• When Pancham used to come down from Calcutta during his school holidays and whenever I used to be free, he used to be with me. I had a varied collection of LPs, so Pancham’s interest indifferent styles of music probably started with me. He used to love music. Afterwards, he got so involved into it, then he became popular, he used to go abroad, first I had to make copies from my LPs, and give it to him. Then he used to buy CDs from there, he used to make copies and give it to me.
I have noticed that everybody from the Indian Film Industry, even you guys I am talking about the fans of ‘40s, ‘50s, ‘60s music, you guys only listen to one type of music. That’s wrong. You always listen to only film music, nothing else. Why? It’s true, 90% – 95%, it’s true. One must make a habit of listening to all sorts of music, not only one genre. Especially musicians. Maybe, that’s what made Pancham so different from everybody else, his wide exposure to world music.

• A little naughty story!
In Bengali, gana is known as gaan. Geeta Roy (Dutt) used to come to the studios with her father or brother when she was not married to Guru Dutt. Sometimes we used to record two songs in one session. So, the full studio would be present and half the musicians were Bengali, half not Bengali. But, we all understood Bengali, especially the bad words. One time when we were in Mahalaxmi Famous, Geeta’s father innocently asked Burmansaab, “Arre, Dada”. He wanted to show he could speak Hindi also, “Dada, aap Lata ka gaan pehle lena hai, ya Geeta ka?”
It really happened, really happened.
(Kersi has a good laugh.)

* * * * *

Q. Tell us more about the musicians with SDB?
KL. I will tell you, those days, how we used to get information. Everybody didn’t have phones also. Every Music Director had his one or two musicians, who play and also do the informing. That is, they would go to musician’s houses and inform, “Parson gana hai Burmansaab ka in so-and-so studio. Aa jaane ka.”

Q. Visit? Actually visit?
KL. He had two violinist- Antao and IC. They used to do informing and playing.

Q. What are the names you said, please?
KL. Antao and IC. We used to call him IC.
The regular group of Burmansaab would have a Rhythm Section of 10-15 musicians. Mostly, I was in rhythm only, till I changed over to other instruments. The string section would ideally be 30-35 violins, 1-2 Cellos, and other solo required instruments. Whenever brass section was required another 6-8 musicians would be needed.

Q. Total how many that would become?
KL. About 60-70, average 60-70 always.
When he used to sing, his songs had very few musicians: one flute, maybe little bit vibraphone and a very small rhythm section. He didn’t want a crowd when he was singing songs. You will find very straight forward music in his songs, when he sings them.

Q. That way there are a number of songs which have less music.
KL. Sometimes budget is also there, some producers can’t afford too much! Then certain styles like where a girl is singing in a room, why should you have an orchestra there. It doesn’t make sense also.

Q. When you speak about rhythm, what do you mean by rhythm?
KL. Rhythm means everything. Tabla, Dholak, Naal, Duff, Dafli, whatever is there. So we don’t have different players for, like: Tabla, Dholak, Naal: they are specialized. Few fellows only play. Then all other instruments like Manjira, Triangle, percussions, Indian and western percussions, any body plays anything. When I was playing Rhythm, I had to play everything. Not Indian rhythm, but all those Latin American instruments, everything. So like that we are regular and we didn’t know what rhythm instruments we were going to use for each song until we reached there. For one song I may have to play Manjira, for some I may have to play Ghunghroo, then some songs I may have to play Bongos, I have to play Congas.

Q. Musicians are fixed, instruments are not fixed?
Yeah. Yeah.

* * * * *

KL. One thing I also noticed about Burmansaab: I always observe people. My hobby is observing people. So when we used to record something – I told you how he used to dress with that cloth ‘Thela’. He would squat on the studio floor, cover both ears tightly with his hands and listen to the music. At that time, I thought “Yeh kahin pagal to nahin ho gaya hai. Dada aisa kyon kar raha hai?” This remained in my sub-conscious mind.

When I started arranging, sometimes the speakers were kept too loud. Those days all the speakers were always kept loud. So, one day I was getting angry, “Why so loud? Why couldn’t I hear what I wanted to hear! So, I just tried Dada’s technique. I closed both my ears tight, and I was surprised to discover that I could hear the details of the things happening behind the song.
Even then, Mr. Burman was so advanced in his techniques. He knew that, “If I close the ears, all the ‘faltu’ noises fade into the background and only the details of the music come through. You try it, next time you listen to any song, keep it loud, then if you want to hear, “ki santoor or any other specific instrument barabar hai, sur mein hai ki nahin hai, kuch bhi aisa, close your ears tight, you’ll find out, ke sur mein hai, besura hai. Tempo barabar hai ki nahi.”

Q. You mean you can pick out easier?
KL. Yes, you can make out the details. Because when we record, we also know the details, what is going to go on the tape finally.

One day Pyarelal gave me a book. It was a book called Scoring for Films in which lots of composers like Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, Elmar Bernstien, etc. etc. gave their individual views on scoring for a death scene. So, once somebody said, when somebody dies, they can build up the music till the death and follow it with complete silence, in Hindi sanatta, complete ‘sanatta’. One composer, I forget who, said that they kept absolute silence before the death, and then give a bang followed by some sad music. Some people said, “We don’t do anything, just let it go like that, and, silence itself has got more strength.”

When I used to do my background scores, I always used to think ‘How best can I treat a scene for maximum impact?’ Reading that book helped me tremendously in my work.

Thirty or so years ago, we were playing for one of Mr. Burman’s background recordings, one of the scenes was a death scene. We built up to the death, for e.g. ‘da ra ra ra’ and ‘marne wala ho to bang, followed by a sad theme.

During the rehearsal Mr. Burman came from inside, “Quiet karo, quiet karo, quiet karo. Mereko suno, suno. Tum log ja rahe ho na, marne tak bahut accha hai, marnepe mujhe ekdam silence chahiye.” Even at that time Burmansaab was already using silence as a part of music, thirty years before I had ever read that book. Look at that old man’s thinking. Look at how advance he was for his age and time!

As I told you earlier, in December I never used to work. I used to go to Pune and Delhi to study western classical, modern and electronic music from various teachers including Professor Aslam from Delhi.

Much later in my career I learnt about cluster sound which has been used in modern classical music since the early ’40s-‘50s. You understand the notes C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G; 7-8 close notes played together make a cluster sound, giving off a very eerie feeling.

One day during one of Mr. Burman’s background recordings, we were rehearsing the piece and suddenly Mr. Burman came charging in saying “Nahin, nahin, nahin sorry, sorry. Bandh karo, bandh karo, bandh karo, bandh karo. Iske pehle tumlog kya bajaya? Violin section, what you were playing?”
Our violin section use to fool around all the time. If you ask them to tune also, give them A for tuning, one will play runs (running notes), one will play ku, ku ku, one will play something else. Instead of tuning, everything else but tuning. So, one fellow said, “I was playing this.” Dada said, “No, no, no. Iske pehle kya?”
For fifteen minutes we were trying to recreate what Mr Burman had heard. Then I realized that they were tuning their violins and other instruments at the time which sounded very similar to what I know as cluster sounds now. So, I asked “Manohari, violin ko tune karo wapas.”
I thought this was what Dada was looking for. And then the whole group started tuning like they done before and Dada said “Haan, yeh, yeh, yehi mere ko chahiye.” He wanted that cluster effect.
After that, Anandji made cluster sound a standard for every background of Kalyanji-Anandji. He used to call it Odessy Tremolo. But, this had been used much before by Mr. Burman. Another example of his music being far ahead of its time.
Mr. Burman always was very modern. I realized, he was very, very modern. Each song of his was unlike any other composer of that time or before. Completely different than others, way ahead of his time.

Q. He was different. The same year in 1957 that he gave us ‘Pyasa’, he also gave music for ‘Nau Do Gyarah’ and ‘Paying Guest’.
KL. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely different! Otherwise every body else had a similar style. ‘50s, ’60, ‘70s. All had similar style except for him and Pancham. He gave variety also. I’ve always considered Mr. Burman a very modern composer for his age.

* * * * *

KL. One more thing, I just realized. Just before Mr. Burman died, couple of months before, Pancham did a show for the Bombay Police. That show was at Shanmukhananda Hall. In Pancham’s shows, his entrance onto the stage was different every time. For this show, he came on stage through the aisle on a Police bike.
Why I am mentioning this is because when Burmansaab died, a few months after this show, the Police Department helped out so much. The Jet (Bungalow) is on linking road – the whole road was closed because of the funeral. For a couple of hours, they helped out so much. The police bandobast was out of the world for Burmansaab’s funeral as we knew all the inspectors, who regularly came for the show rehearsals. They became very friendly with us musicians.

Pancham’s father had died so they felt it their duty to help him out. It was first time I saw a very organized funeral. I’ll never forget it.

I don’t understand all this confusion. Assistant music directors are there to assist….or what?
So RD Burman must have assisted.
Every music director has assistants, but we always hear only the music director’s name.

RD himself must have had assistants.

Here is a link to another excellent SD Burman song from Bandini, and how it came about. This was in 1963 (Aradhana in 1969).

It is interesting to read.
At one point SD Burman hums the tune ..Lalalala. to the lyricist Gulzar, and RD Burman changes it to… Dadadaa…. and Gulzar understands the tune will be….. laladdaadaladda.
Now should we say the song was set to music by RD?

Here too we see a lot of conflict regarding the situation of the song..inside the aangan or outside.
There are situations where there is disagreement initially.
So the fact that he persuaded his father to keep/compose the song in Aradhana doesn’t really prove anything.

The narration of how this song came about illustrates all that goes into the birth of a song.

Ranjan Das Gupta in his article titled ‘Missing Maestros’ in Times of India dated February 21, 2009 has said: ‘Earlier compositions by Naushad, S. D. Burman, Salil Chowdhuri and Shankar-Jaikishan prove their command over western melodies.

Even Bobby Darwin, the iconic composer of ‘Come September’ appreciated Sujata, Guide and Parakh. He became aware of them through a British music critic, James Stewart, who was well informed about Hindi melodies.
(Two of the three movies mentioned above have music by SD Burman)

Salil Chowdhury officially ranked R.D.B. as the greatest prodigal music composer and director of all times along with hundreds of great musicologists all over the world including Jose Flores of Brazil and Kronos Quartet of USA etc etc.

Lastly I will quote a poem by Salil Chowdhury on R.D.’s death translated by Mr. Supratik Ganguly :-

” He arrives unexpectedly, unanticipated,
Begets expectations enormous,implausible,
Gratifies the thirsty earth with his creative flair,
Showers it green and fertile
And then goes away one day,
As unexpectedly as he had appeared,
with the future lit up by the halo of his prominence…. “

RD’s reputation as a boy wonder of sorts even before he became famous or got his big breaks is well known..

Personally the whole Western/Indian debate doesn’t interest me very much either, partly because it’s framed in very reductive fashion. Cultures absorb influences over time. Every time a Western arrangement or instrument is used or inspiration is drawn from a kind of music it does not automatically make it a completely Western song. That sort of thing often happen today when many inferior composers produce rock songs in Hindi and so on. Here there is no element of fusion, no admixture. It is simply about replicating something.

The violin is one of the key instruments in South Indian film music, specially Tamil. And yet this is a relatively recent phenomenon owing to colonial influences. It is by now a quintessential instrument if you will. On that note it is often held at the chest in India which is not whereas a trained classical musician would always rest it on the shoulder in the West.

But even with respect to the canonical age of Hindi film music (roughly from the early 50s to the mid or late 70s.. for some Kishore/Rajesh Khanna usher in the ‘modern’ period and they like to keep it to the 50s and 60s only) there is a lot that is Western. So for example some of Shankar-Jaikishen’s signature music is derived from Italian or Slavic folks strains. There were always Western influences. It was never completely pure though there were of course composers who could produce purely Indian works and did quite often. But sometimes you have very Western melodies put to Indian arrangements. And I am not even getting into singing styles here. For instance Kishore is often connected with jazz for some elements of his vocalization. So on and so forth.

The point isn’t ‘Western’ (in many ways this is a hopelessly inexact cliche) but fusion. Most of the composers used Western inspiration from time to time — from Mozart to folk music it’s all there is Bombay film history. But RD brought about true fusion (one reason why Rahman considers him a supreme influence) and here his ‘Westernization’ so to speak is unlike any other. Compared to his work in this area some of the others, including the examples you’ve cited, come off as crude. Don’t get me wrong, I like many of these songs. Just that RD operates at a superior level where fusion is concerned. Much as I love the music of LP in Karz. But again their attempt at fusion is far inferior to RD’s. It’s ultimately not just about using Western or ‘Eastern’ influences in the same song but creating something unexpected. A lot of the ‘Western’ music that I hear in older Hindi cinema is instantly recognizable as belonging to a certain archive. But with RD’s best or now with Rahman’s work something ‘new’ emerges. And so when someone like Andrew Lloyd Webber has spotted Bach in Rahman it isn’t as obvious as say Mozart’s 40th symphony the opening movement of which has more or less been lifted wholesale for Itna na mujhe tu pyar badha (Chaya). It is about musical structure far more than ‘tune’. Webber (this is an old interview) was especially crazy about Taal. Often (and I am hardly an expert in these matters) people tend to define Western and Indian in very literal ways when the opposite can as much be the case. So a very Indian sounding tune and set to Indian orchestration can reveal more profound Western influences than the opposite and of course vice versa.

I understood that it was being said the (disputed) song of Aradhana had a western tune which ‘had’ to be RD’s. So I’ve provided examples that over the years SD gave several great tunes.
I can’t imagine that SD couldn’t come up with a fusion if he wanted to. He may not have wanted to go for it in a big way.
Around that time it was becoming a fashion, and I won’t be surprised if the musician him wasn’t tempted to try his hand at it – ably assisted by his son.

Actually not everyone can come up with fusion.. just as not everyone can produce fine thumris! It isn’t about musical talent but about a specific set of skills. And the point about Aradhana wasn’t a Western tune but about the ‘kind’ of Western tune it was or some of the influences it revealed. Much as LP could never ever have composed RD’s music though they otherwise did a lot of Western stuff and much that I like as well. But again I’m not talking superficially about ‘tunes’. It is about something much more profound than that. Fusion is not an easy thing to do in any culture. Mixing two or more traditions to create a third that seems completely authentic and ‘unexpected’ is not at all easy. Just as not every great Western composer produces great operas. Not every one who produces great symphonies can also do great sonatas! It all depends on one’s skill set. The point here isn’t about whether SD is greater or RD. That’s a valid debate but not the important one for the Aradhana discussion. This idea that because one is talented enough one can do anything is so obviously false it’s odd that I even have to insist on it. How many great novelists are also great short story writers? A very small percentage! Great landscape artists are not automatically great at portraits! So on and so forth. But this does not mean that SD might not have had some gifts even here. Just that the record we can judge for both father and son shows the latter supremely ahead on this score. It’s not even close. What SD might have done had he lived in a later age is an ‘ahistorical’ question. One might as well ask what kind of composer RD might have been had he arrived in the early 50s.

The tons of fusion soundtracks RD has in the 70s and 80s, his mature work so to speak, and for which there is no equivalent in the father’s work. In fact RD after those initial great soundtracks with Rajesh Khanna almost exclusively devoted himself to fusion.

The thing is Oldgold I can understand your attachment to and investment in many of these older figures (much as many do the opposite at the other end of the spectrum) but matters of art require some more critical judgments. Old is not always gold! Sorry to have to break this to you! One can otherwise play the linguistic games all day long! Ultimately it’s not about SD/RD. I think you find it impossible to accept that anything in the 50s or 60s was superseded by anything in later decades in any sense whatsoever. That’s a position for sure but it is sadly not very often dependent on facts. I am as devoted to the classics as you are, as appreciative of older music as you are but things change. It’s like people grow up with their favorite sportsmen and then find it hard to accept that a later figure is better or greater. Not saying that is necessarily the case with SD/RD but you just defend the older stuff in a very knee jerk way which is simply not conducive to serious debate beyond a point.

So? Now the talent of a musician can only be considered great if he can produce fusion? And when people in the west get crazy about it? Obviously!! They like the western in it. They are familiar with that part.

You need a crash course in Indian music. Here’s raag bhopali for starters 😉
Good explanation. Listen till the end (if you have any taste in “Indian” music which isn’t fusion – like our fusion films.

We seem to have deviated from the original discussion. My idea was to bring out certain facts.

The idea was not to compare the father and the son, or say who was greater. All our music directors are greats in their own way.

It is my personal view that we should not compare father and son with each other. Both of them didn’t have problem with each other, following their different paths.Their music genres were different. Both of them knew western music and our Indian classical music.

It is again my personal view that RDB followed different genre very wisely, realizing that he would be compared with his father, where he stood no chance.

Anyone disagreeing with this statement, should first go through his autobiography ‘Saragmer Nikhad’, as well as Bangla articles on him which describe what pains he took to document our ancient folk music by visiting far flung villages in North East, undivided Bengal, Bihar, United Provinces, etc.

He knew classical music very well, but was of the opinion that classical music has no place in our type of films, except where the situation demands.

This is a free country, and I should not be berated for my personal views.

No one’s berating you. or at least no one should. This is just a debate.

“It is again my personal view that RDB followed different genre very wisely, realizing that he would be compared with his father, where he stood no chance. ”

I would contest this statement though. Not because I disagree with respect to SD’s enormous strengths. But this makes it sound as if someone like RD who had his own genius was only following a certain path as a consolation prize after accepting defeat to his father. It would be like saying Rahman didn’t do traditional Tamil music because he couldn’t have bettered M S Vishwanathan!

And with all due respect this is the problem I have with the whole SD/RD debate on Aradhana. I think we can both accept that neither figure’s reputation rests on this one album. Now it isn’t that one shouldn’t be interested in what the facts are here but why does this debate matter more to one than many others? There are all sorts of factual issues about many other things. My reading here is that Aradhana is the site where the anxiety of SD adherents reveals itself. In other words this was the new music associated with Rajesh Khanna and we know what followed. RD became huge later. Aradhana is about claiming even this ‘new’ for SD. This to me is what the debate is really about, EVEN IF THE FACTS ARE ENTIRELY AS YOU SAY THEY ARE!

In other words the father-son debates are fairly common in just about any culture where you have two figures in the same field. Usually though one is obviously inferior to the other so it never becomes a very serious debate. On the few occasions that it does it’s endless. Put differently no one would even argue about Aradhana if RD wasn’t a titan. If everyone thought he was completely inferior to his father and/or not a great talent in his own right why would one even bother to debate Aradhana?!

SD has many great soundtracks but only one Aradhana (if this album is given over entirely to him). RD however has a number of albums that sound exactly like this one. Which is what really sustains the debate. For the SD adherents however it is precisely what you’ve more or less stated here and elsewhere — that SD did Aradhana, RD then copied Aradhana and produced other soundtracks like it. Then he also got into fusion before or after because of course he couldn’t have challenged SD in anything he had done. This is really the narrative. It isn’t truly about the facts. Actually my claim is that debates are very rarely about simply the facts, the latter are always embedded in a narrative which is the real deal.

This at any rate is a debate. No one ought to berate any side here. But I just think it’s not about what it’s being made out to be even by yourself. It’s not just about the ‘boring’, ‘mundane’ facts! You Sir have a stake in whether SD is considered greater or RD! Many have the same stake on the other side too I’m sure. But let’s not say it’s only about the facts.

I should add on a different note without minimizing SD or anyone else (because to my mind a critical debate does not lessen a great figure’s accomplishment but only enlarges or enriches the field of discussion about them) that a lot of times examples are provided as if they were ends -in-themselves. Take the Bengali folk music example. Indeed SD documented a lot of this tradition, used it superbly in so many films. But is this principally an achievement of musical genius? Aren’t many of those compositions no more than slight re-workings of the sources? In other words of course he had his musical arrangements and of course he made a great mark with the music including with his voice in these songs but isn’t his principal accomplishment one of documenting the music and making it more nationally known? Whereas elsewhere it’s much more about creating remarkable compositions? Much as when Rahman does the bhajan in Jodha Akbar that sticks close to certain traditional forms (the same could be said for his thumri in Zubeidaa) and is not exceptional in itself. One couldn’t use this as an example of Rahman’s gifts the way one could say Marhaba from the same album. Just because a great name is attached to all kinds of music doesn’t mean that he (or she) is spectacular on all scores. And again to be absolutely clear I am not saying the folk music isn’t great or ‘classic’. Just that it doesn’t undergo enough mutation in SD’s hands for it to be considered as a great composition on his part. This point that I’ve made doesn’t lessen SD’s greatness a bit to my mind. But I make it to argue that every example is not equally instructive when thinking of a composer’s work.

Getting back to what I started out with I actually also disagree that RD couldn’t do traditional well. I think that’s not where his primary interests lay but he also recognized that there was nothing more to be done in those areas precisely because of his father’s work and all the other work all the other great composers of Bombay had produced for so long. Much as in Tamil cinema Rahman of course is interested in certain things, at the same time after Ilaiyaraja there was nothing more anyone could do in terms of reinventing or upgrading the tradition. Every so often a tradition exhausts itself which is to say that even though it can continue to be plumbed for pleasant tunes nothing truly interesting comes out of it because it has become about repetition. here a revolutionary figure is needed who makes a new beginning possible. RD and Rahman are similar figures in this sense though Ilaiyaraja was that kind of figure himself. This is so in all the arts. One can write a Victorian novel today, many do, they’re even good writers, but ultimately the efforts are beside the point. Because nothing new is being added to this tradition. The point is that the revolutionary figure cannot be defined as someone who just does the new because he knows he cannot better the old! The new figure absorbs all the influences but then decides to do something else with it. This doesn’t mean accepting defeat or something. It is the way new movements come about in the arts.

But your contributions are very welcome and you should certainly keep providing your perspective.

Please don’t mind my saying so, but your posts are usually very very long, without a break, hence I shy away from reading and hence replying.

But to be fair to you – after all this is your show – I went through this post of yours. In reply, I am going to talk about Aradhana only.

When I say anyone is welcome to come with me to meet those musicians who worked with father and son. Not one of them disagrees with the other, I am told these musicians are siding with the father.

When I am saying that I have personally heard Shakti Samanta on ‘Aaj ke funkaar’ program of Vividh Bharati at 9.30 pm (I have the date with me), I am being doubted.

When I am publishing interview/s with Shakti Samanta, their veracity is being doubted. That is why posted today Majrooh Sultanpuri live on Youtube, but all were quiet, to pounce when they find that I have voice recorded, printed and taken signatures of my subjects.

I am asked why I didn’t have a camcorder, as if they can’t make out voice of a living person by confronting him. That is why I said earlier that, ‘you are living in a world of fantasy.’

I am posting a portion of interview with Shakti Samanta again, which deals with Aradhana:
That does not surprise me, the music was really good. Then, what made you move on to RD?
SS “During Aradhana, the way RD worked on orchestration, arrangements and recording, I was very impressed. Also, I was present when he recorded his Bengali puja song with Kishore, ‘Aakash kaino daake’, I just loved the tune, so I booked it for my next project. Also, he was preparing another, ‘Aaj gun gun gun’ which too I booked.

Then Sachin Karta suggested to sign RD for my next film. The songs were chosen even before we planned our next film. That is how Kati Patang came into being. Again, a huge hit, both music and the film.”
(‘Aakash kaino daake’ is the original tune of ‘Ye sham mastani’. And, ‘Aaj gun gun gun..’ is of ‘Pyar diwana hota hai’).

Dada, this brings me to a very important question that has been in my mind for many years. How much of music of Aradhana (1969) was done or composed by RD?
SS “None, every tune was composed by Sachin karta himself, RD only worked on orchestration, again every piece of instrument to be used was decided by Sachin Karta, RD followed his instructions. Sachin da did not like any interference, he accepted suggestions and encouraged Rahul a lot, he also trusted in Rahul’s talent, but his tunes were like his babies, someone can put a dress on it but not without Sachin da’s approval. They were all hundred percent Sachin da’s tunes.”

What about the singers, I have heard and read that Kishore was RD’s choice when Dada Burman was unwell?
SS “No, no, no (he gives out a laugh), this is all bad propaganda by some people who are now trying to push RD’s name and fame. Sachin da, when he composed a tune, did so with a particular singer in his mind always, and nobody could change it. He knew who will sing which song even before consulting me about the tune. All this was fully Sachin da’s work. RD only recorded the songs and controlled the orchestration; he always did this for his Baba. These are all false stories.”

Well then, how about Sachin Dev ghost composing for Amar Prem (1971)?
SS “Another false story. Amar Prem was entirely RD’s work. We had planned the film music to sound like Sachin da type of music. Even the song that Sachin Karta sang, is composed by Rahul. If RD asked, Sachin Karta would advise, but they did not interfere in each other’s compositions.”
(We ended our first day’s conversation here.)

“During Aradhana, the way RD worked on orchestration, arrangements and recording, I was very impressed.”

Doesn’t this make the opposite point from the one you’re trying to establish? Surely a song isn’t just about the basic tune?! Specially so with RD who was famed for his arrangements and so on.

By the way I am not doubting anything you’re saying. But I have to consider the testimony of others also. The suggestion that Asha Bhosle is not a reliable witness on RD is a little hard to swallow. You yourself quoted Shammi Kapoor on SD. Well if this means something why not his other stuff on RD?

My point here is not about everyone’s testimony. But note how unreliable it can be. Shakti Samantha for example contradicts himself. First he says he was very impressed with RD’s orchestration and arrangements and so on which is why he was willing to work with him after Aradhana. On the other hand he makes it sound in the other quote as if RD was just mechanically implementing SD’s instructions with every last thing worked out by SD! Well then what was he so impressed about?! Presumably if the latter is the case any arranger could do the job. You wouldn’t need RD!

It’s quite clear that SS had a certain devotion to RD. I’ve quoted the anecdote more than once, the one Asha mentioned about how SS accepted the very same RD tune as ‘good’ once he passed it off as his father’s whereas otherwise he was rejecting every suggestion. Do you really this speaks to a neutral or objective frame of mind? Wouldn’t such a person wish to minimize RD’s significance to anything SD did? Which is why this contradiction comes up?

Similarly so for the musicians. Why are they the gospel truth. But absolute devotion creates all kinds of ‘creative testimony’. Or at least a system of belief where one disregards any other contradictory testimony.

Take yourself — for you every testimony that speaks ‘for’ SD is completely accurate and plausible and ‘closest to the source’ whereas every other testimony can safely be ignored! Of course note the irony here. The guy closest was actually RD. Did he not ever spend time, offer inputs and so on when no one else was around?! Yesterday the author of the long piece Munna put up suggested RD convinced SD to retain Roop tera mastana in Aradhana. And since that author was also making your case he couldn’t be accused of bias in the other direction. But that bit of testimony again suggests a more complicated picture. If one wants objectivity one has to consider everything. When we look at the historical record or when scholars do so they almost never count the testimony of those who are closest as decisive. They value it greatly as a ‘first hand account’ but also treat it with enough skepticism because it is precisely those closest who can be most partial one way or the other. So there has to be corroboration from elsewhere in the historical record. Would we for example say that the people surrounding Sonia Gandhi offer the best accounts of what she was upto because they were the closest and always with her while others weren’t? The same principle applies here. It’s no different. And you often get contradictions this way which is why we have to consider all bits of evidence and somehow sift through the record. But the idea that the case if closed because the musicians said something or Samantha did isn’t the sort of argument any serious historian would consider as decisive or complete in any matter.

“Coming back to my career. Till the
end of 1964 I didn’t have much work.
Teesri Manzil’ was the only big hit to
my credit. It was only after I assisted
my father in ‘Aradhana’ that producers
thought ‘Pancham ko bhi kaam dena
chahiye’. Shaktida who had seen me
work in ‘Aradhana’ gave me his ‘Kati
Patang’. My assignments started picking up then on.

“In December 1955 Guru Dutt came
to Calcutta for the shooting of ‘Pyaasa’.
He was close to my father and I asked
him to use his influence to get me to
Bombay. It worked. ‘Pyaasa’ was the
first film I helped my father with. I not
only composed one of the songs but
also played the mouth organ and some
other instruments at the recording.

thanks Bliss, this is the kind of stuff I was referring to. Presumably no one was ‘closer’ to SD than RD! Plus it’s just about common sense. Why would a genius like SD not appreciate or respect his son’s talent even when he differed with him?

And again all this doesn’t mean that SD deserves any less credit. I think it’s the other side that raises the stakes by more or less suggesting RD’s contribution to Aradhana is about as much as mine! Which is to say that if anyone could have done the arrangements and so on and it did not at all require RD’s talents I’m a little disappointed I wasn’t born earlier. I could have applied for the position!

The IR/Rahman divide is especially instructive in this context. Because in the 80s IR really did try to shoehorn influence at some points and the admixture was never quite seamless because he wasn’t trying to create a standalone sound much as he was trying to place one template “on top” of another. I don’t mean this as some harsh criticism of IR (as I believe you don’t when speaking of SD) because I still love that music. The MTV-pop he tried to blend with Tamil film music didn’t quite shrug the awkwardness of the attempt but it nevertheless created something that for its time was rather significant, eminently fun, and an important bridge between the past and Rahman.

agreed in every sense.. and it’s also true that IR also lacked the technology in his peak years that was always available to Rahman. Having said that I have a great taste for late IR. Avatharam is of course the great example here specially Thendral vanthu, one of the truly sublime IR works.

So are you saying that there are no great musicians in the west because I don’t think anyone there composes fusion.

It’s not a question of ‘old’ music being preferable.
It’s this argument of giving fusion as the be all of greatness in music.
It’s just one of the new ‘raag’ (for a better word) – and mind you “just one raag”

Think this has been debated and mentioned before–but my v brief 2 cents–
If pinned and forced to choose,
Will rate Sd burmans overall work slightly higher than rd burman
( though both were awesome)–which sort of ‘settles’ the rd-rehman question (!)
As for rehman, he is a different ball game….
And this is on an alltime basis…
Genres, styles, range, ‘predictability’, iconicity, reach and influence era all seemingly taken into account…

yes and the Teesri Manzil soundtrack was one Shammi Kapoor who had some understanding of music praised a lot. He said that he was initially skeptical at RD being given the entire album but when he heard the compositions he was floored.

@satyam
At least I’m not saying that SD is great because he composed ‘Indian’ tunes – which he didn’t all the time.
It’s you who’s saying ‘if you composed good fusion you were the grteatest’.

I’m not so stupid as not to recognize the difference between taste for certain music and the ‘greatest music.

Your taste is for fusion AND anything that is of your taste has to be the best/greatest of course! And you dismiss mine as ……….things change….. old is not always better…blah…blah ….blah…etc etc. DUH??

I didn’t even join this discussion to say that SD was the greatest or better than RD. It was just to point out that SD was good at composing western tunes as well.
You started this off by making statements of RD being better because …….he has a great many fusion tunes…webber likes fusion……

I said this argument was pointless and I was right. If you would bother to read what I’ve written for a change you wouldn’t make these statements. Because they certainly don’t represent my position. But again it’s a pointless argument. With you one usually gets to the Clinton position and about what the meaning of ‘is’ is!

The “inanities” here is about two people who don’t know music technically, arguing. I think some places you should not have a “debate” such as contract law if you are not a contract lawyer 😉
I think OG is “winning” the debate. WTG OG.
P.S. RDB is hands down better in everyway because not only he understands classical hindustani (like SDB) but he adds western music and creates something hatt Kay. In any case I don’t see people making documentaries and celebrating contribution of others, the way they are doing for RDB

“I think OG is “winning” the debate. WTG OG.”
Dimple-Oldgold is under my ‘training’-so no wonder…

Ps- as mentioned by Di, are u trained in ‘classical music’ or ragas
Plz tell-can use in certain type of ‘scenes’ as ‘background music’ 🙂
Btw what did u think about my film role offer
Ps-ok, will give u a choice of type of role u can do lol

@Sattu: winning a debate is all about how you argue your case not it is not about convincing me or someone. Most of the time I am unconvined about your statement or many ridiculous stands that you take and totally disagree but still admire the relentlessness, stubborness and tenacity to not let go ever! you may think that junior is box office success (and a thespian on top of that) and present all the “proof” and thereby “win” the debate, whether others change their opinion or not,…1 2 kaa 4…1 2 kaa 4…. OG thinks that SDB could also be innovative but mostly chose to stay with classical music and old is not really golden etc. The times had changed during RD…if he had simply continued in SD’s vein (which he could have), he would never be as big/hit and never achieved the legend status that he has today. He simply was a genius….unfortunately within hindi movie framework…otherwise he would have been world famous.

LOL, I am reminded of that SNL Biden skit where he says stuff like ‘John McCain’s a friend but he’s a raving maniac’ or ‘I really like him but he’s crazy’!

But as for never being convinced by stuff I say that’s perfectly fine. Specially since you’re never in any danger of making a plausible counter-argument!

One good turn deserves another!

More seriously it’s often interesting (and you’re not the first person I’ve known who’s argued along these lines) that the more you try to flesh out your argument, the more comprehensive you try to be the more some think you’re playing ‘dirty’ and twisting words or using language as a tool and what not. Whereas those who simply assert things and walk away are considered ok. It’s like ‘not only does he hold these positions, he dares to argue seriously for them as well’! Isn’t this what really offends? Because when one just asserts things it’s easier to dismiss opinions. When a case is truly made one can of course still disagree but only by engaging seriously. Otherwise even though one pretends to be dismissive the argument haunts the mind! Ha!

I agree about the relentlessness bit though! And I say this with total sincerity that I am never really trying to ‘convince’ people of anything. UI try to frame discussions a certain way. People are free to accept them or dismiss them, engage or not with them. When they do the discussion proceeds further but the goal (odd as this might sound to you) is not really about battering anyone into submission. In fact that’s such a boring goal I wouldn’t respect anyone who had it. Any conversation/discussion is much more about what is talked about and how it is talked about. Agreement or disagreement is just a byproduct! As I’ve said before some of my favorite opinions come from people I often don’t agree with in many ways. But I do ‘learn’ from their opinions.

@lexy: 5 years-hindustani classical. My voice is beautiful (someone close to me told me yesterday that they want to listen to me talking all day long!) But my singing is atrocious. 5 years is very little time and I don’t “know” anything still.

Well I have many ‘crazy’ friends. I guess it takes on to recognise another! I can totally see myself making those statements (ha!). On other counts of not making ‘plausible’ counter arguements, guilty as charged. There is a story of two people in Akhada (fighting ring). One phehlvan and another rookie. The rookie (scared of the phelvan) says,”aapko maaf kiya” . Lolz. Maybe I am the rookie 😉

Q is silent bcos people here r making such baseless and ridiculous comments while debating with Satyam that it’s not even funny. And how can it be presumed that Satyam doesn’t know anything abt technicalities of music- the way he was talking abt fusion etc, i am very sure he knows as much abt music as any of the other people debating with him, if not more

Di, i never expected that ‘you’ would call me a ‘sycophant’ but now as u have said it, lemme make one thing clear- i am not scared to take sides- if according to u, i am sucking up to someone, i don’t give a fuck. Could u care to give me a reason why would i indulge in sycophancy?

Again a kiddish way to argue when you are talking about RDB and SDB. I can expect something like this if people are making arguments about Pritan and Anu Malik. It is a serious discussion for most part. Did you see me supporting Satyam’s fusion point? I don’t know anything about it. then why should I put put my foot in between? It is not always people are pro or against .. Sometimes they just have no position.You will hardly find me discussing movies pre-90. Because I just don’t know.

If it is in lighter vein, people pay back in same coin! It is always very easy to make fun of or criticize!

And lastly People like to read and pereceive whatever they want to; It doesn’t make it right (or even wrong).

But Munna Sir, what if i do know just a little bit abt fusion? what if i play some ‘fusion tunes’ on my ‘mouth-organ’ and on the ‘saxophone’ (btw i love play the sholey tune given by RDB)? leaving this aside, it’s not abt satyam knowing abt fusion or not- the problem was that when people r not able to give a valid arguement, they come up with stuff like- “he cannot talk abt it bcos he does not the technicalities of so-and-so field”-how can people assume that someone does not abt something (let’s say fusion)

Nobody should ‘bully’ Oldgold folks
She has a ‘leeway’ to do anything even objectionable stuff!!
These are perks of being in my film 😉
Go Oldgold go…
Ps-but spare poor Satyam -think he’s had enuf here 🙂

Moti uncle: u r a true blue ‘rockstar’ 🙂
Keep up your comments
Btw your selective ‘focus’ on rd and sd is good but don’t u have any interest in any other aspect of filmdom
Eg gud to know of your interest in scotch (&di)
Ps-who are your favorite heroines othe bygone era and of the current era ..

And Moti uncle
Theres another member here who absoultely adores old films etc
I suggest u might want to ‘befriend’ miss oldgold ..who is as ‘passionate’ about this stuff as u
True ‘passion’ meets true ‘passion’
The result is ….
😉

The greatest Indian music composer ever is hands-down the ‘Mozart of Madras’. a lot of artistes around the world, including Webber and Hans Zimmer, believe that Rehman is currently one of the best in the world if not the best. RDB great as he was is just infinitely inferior to Rehman. From whatever i have heard of Illaiyaraja, i will pick him over RDB. Actually as a personal preference i will pick LP over RDB (note i am not saying they r greater than RDB), AAA and Karz being my fav.

LP(or for matter Shankar Jaikishan) did give lots of hits but they made music within defined boundries of bollywood music. ARR and RDB made new boundries.
I like ARR but I am not a big fan ; I will pick RDB music over him anyday because that is my taste. I won’t comment who is better because I am no authority.

Firstly, let me remind people that there is a lot of work that is done after recording. For example, RDB didn’t like the way Sanu sang “kuch na kaho” although everyone else seemed OK with it and much after the recording, RD alone sat and edited the song to make it better. Javed Akhtar said that. So, a lot of important editing work actually happens after the recording. (In fact, nowadays the entire song is recorded in pieces and is edited long after that.) It may very well be that Roop Tera Mastana was similarly edited by RDB after the song was recorded. Not to mention, the very idea of using this song was supposed to be RD’s and kishore kumar’s .

@Munna
I didn’t read that 30 page article. Can you summarize it for me?
I like SDB’s music very much , and I am not comparing, but I think two of his movies stand out as being different from the rest – Aradhana and Jewel Thief. They look more RDB and I don’t think that it is a coincidence that RD was the assistant in both films and that RDB had done some successful independent films by the time these two films released. The RDB feel is probably largely due to the orchestration. Even Shakti Samantha seems to have said that RDB worked on orchestration. I think RD was definitely there giving the most important ideas. But may be his father had the final say.
However, at least a few songs were likely to be RDB’s composition.

@Bliss
I personally agree with the likes of Anil Biswas or Salilda. ‘There has never been and there will never be (at least not anytime soon) another RDB.’ I heard even Anu Malik said that there will never be another RDBurman. I think RDB is the best despite listening to music from different places and times in the world. But that’s my personal view and feeling. Musical beauty is subjective.
And I enjoy other old musicians very much including SDB. I do believe there is a tremendous amount of things to treasure from the past. However, somehow I feel that RDB is at the peak of music.

@oldgold,Satyam
RD was definitely not what you can generalize and call “western”. For example, he introduced an African instrument called Tumba. Africa is not west, is it? He had latin,oriental and other influences as well.
And RD himself regarded knowledge of classical as the most important thing. His personal favourite compositions are also based on indian classical.
Also, I do not think “fusion” is necessarily better. But what is defintely better is RDBurman. Even his classical songs are some of the best songs that exist in hindi.
RDB is a bit more like beethoven than some other greats. You cannot predict RD. And he is mad, he is crazy- but at the same time extremely melodious and balanced.

Another comment to clarify my position, which seems to have got lost in all this.

I prefer SDB (but greatly enjoy RDB’s music too), and so wasn’t too happy with people coming up with theories of how RDB was better than the father, and how he composed tunes for him and let it be under SDB’s name (making him a dishonest person).

If popularity is the measure of superiority then I declare the Golmaal series to be top quality, and better than all movies except the few which earned more than these.

If there is solid proof anywhere of son composing anonymously for father then there is no other way but to accept it, but all this conjecture to prop up ones favourite is WHAT I HAVE BEEN ARGUING AGAINST HERE!!

I wrote a commment to state this, but it seems to have been ignored by everyone …. AND …. now I see several comments accusing (me, of course) of not being qualified to talk of music, not knowing the technicalities..

No one has the qualifications to declare who is better than whom on these grounds. If satyam can understand fusion, I can understand enough classical/light classical music.

Excerpts from my recorded interview with Mr Brahamanand Singh, of ‘Pancham unmixed’ fame:

“I think that these arguments are not needed. I think what we need is to focus on, are some of the greatest things that they all have come out with.

If you are talking about SD Burman, I think that finest music that he has created remains matchless. And, I feel that what RD shows is a lot and lot on his father. If he would not have been SD Burman’s son, the music that he would have created probably would have been very different. Still, It might have been brilliant music. I am not saying at all, because he was…”

Interviewer: He may not have been creating music at all! That’s also a possibility!

“Yes. And I know it was how harsh SD Burman used to be on him as a kid. And it was he who put him on to Ali Akbar Khan sahib, Brijen Biswas and others.”

“No one has the qualifications to declare who is better than whom on these grounds. If satyam can understand fusion, I can understand enoughclassical/light classical music.”- completely agreed Oldgold. And it’s not abt whether u know abt music or not, it’s abt the fact no one, without any reason, should presume that you (or Satyam) do not know abt something.

I don’t think that the point here is about who is better. For me, as well as many others, RDB remains the best (with or without films like Aradhana). But since music is about personal tastes, one has to respect those who feel that others like SDB are better. It’s completely subjective.

The real point here is that the music of Aradhana and to some extent Jewel-Thief sound very unlike SDB and much more like RDB. I don’t think it was a coincidence that RD was an assistant in these films and that there are important witnesses that credit him with much of the work.

And by saying that I am not trying to belittle SD. He obviously had an influence on RD as a father and RD himself has always said how he learned a lot of things from his father.

However, I think I will trust Moti Lalwani once he provides videos, instead of posting long written interviews. Until then I can’t help having a bit of suspicion. Not saying that he is lying, just that I want a little more conviction.

And more importantly, like I said, there are things that even those musicians that he interviewed can be unaware of. For example, the editing of sound that happens after the recording, or the discussions that happen between father and son.

Another thing, music is one of those areas where the vast majority tend to peak around age 20-40. With SD, it’s like he peaked after 60 (in my opinion). Again RD’s creative ideas probably combined well with SD’s experience to make that happen.
Notice that RD was already 30 by then. So he lost a good 10 years of his prime living under the shadow of SD. But that in turn, might have helped SD to remain in his prime.

This is BS, I am sorry to say. SD came to Bombay in 1944, when he 38 and a very successful singer in east. He came to become a music director in Hindi films. He not only succeeded from his very first films, as per the trend then, but soon started a different trend and became choosy refusing films from well know production houses. He did not have any hiatus like RDB.

It’s not that one can’t produce good songs, or even great songs, past 50, but no one is in their prime at 55. Somehow, SDB just kept getting better and better with age.
SDB’s music got a new dimension from around the time of chalti ka naam gadi, about the same time RD became his assistant.

Nobody is denying SDB’s talent. And nobody is denying that SD helped RD become what he was. But I think the opposite direction is also true. RD also lifted SD’s music as he started to grow older.

In 1970 RD was thrown out by Meera Devi, his mother. She wouldn’t even allow him in the recording studios. The reason was that one song of ‘Tere mere sapne’ (1971) was still to be recorded, when RDB took the entire team to Madras for his work.

The father also got angry, and told his assistants that they will not work for him anymore. Meera Devi for the first time took over as an assistant music director, and Anil-Mohile were engaged.

Subsequently, Anil-Mohile got busy as SDB took less assignments, and Dada asked Ashish-Bablu to join him. This shows his versatility, as he remained on top, whoever his assistant was.

Not only the father got his second Filmfare award for Abhiman (1973), besides other awards, but produced excellent music, movie after movie, Mili being his last. All the Mili songs had been composed by Dada and recorded on tape before his illness.

Dada had a habit of singing his songs, to let the singers know how he wanted them to sing, whoever the singer maybe. When Kishore heard Dada singing, ‘Badi sooni hai’, he started crying, there was so much sadness in his voice. Kishore left, saying he will record it some other day, only when he is ready for it.

In the meanwhile, Dada fell ill, and In absence of Sr Burman, the chief assistant had to go and request RDB, ‘Aap ko aana hi padega’ for ‘balancing during recording’, which is a difficult as per him.

And what a tribute to the living legend SDB (who was unwell), was thought out by this chief assistant! All his living past and present assistants were requested and agreed to come to play different instruments during recording. Those of past who played different instruments included Suhrid Kar, Anil and Mohile, Basu, Manohari, and the present included Ashish and Bablu.

Maruti Rao never left Dada even though he was part of Madras team, and worked for RDB too. He also was part of this team paying tribute to the master.

Produce such detailed information, don’t just say because Aradhana was followed by similar other music, it has to be RDB work. In that case, SDB lovers can also say that because other movies followed Aradhana style, so those also were guided by the father. Both assumptions are equally ridiculous, unless we have solid proof.

Again, I have always maintained that I have never denied the talent or genius of SDB. In fact, there is no way to deny it.

The only thing that I am saying is that RD probably did have some important input as an assistant and was not just a puppet who followed orders. That’ all. And I think all these interviews posted by munna confirms this.

But RD is saying specifically he was involved in a lot of stuff, even as early as Pyaasa! The problem is that you have the ‘closest to SD’ argument except when it comes to RD. Here suddenly the person actually closest to SD is an unreliable witness.

Also that Aradhana analogy doesn’t hold the other way round. Why? Because all those later albums have RD’s name on them and there is no dispute about them! The SD claim in this sense, if there is to be one, should work in the other direction. One should find pre-Aradhna albums that sound like it! Or on the other hand what albums that bear SD’s name after Aradhana sound like this album? Going down the list very quickly I’d say none! On the other hand mysteriously RD’s work in many instances seems very close to the same. Rather odd!

“Several songs which proved great
hits were originally rejected by producers.
Dum maro dum (“Hare Rama, Hare
Krishna”) Dev Anand had said sounded
funny and wouldn’t run. I persuaded
him to keep it in the album as it
was a situational song and useless for
any other film. Kora kagaz tha
(“Aradhana”) had been disapproved by
Shaktida, Kaka everybody. So was
Kaaton se kheench ke (“Guide”) by Dev
Anand. Goldie filmed it only because
they were already on location. All the
tunes of ‘Amar Prem’ had earlier been
recorded for a Bengali film ‘Raaj
Kumari’ which flopped miserably.”

As these examples prove and following the logic of the argument for the musicians being ‘closest’ to SD compared to some of the other industry figures it’s safe to say no one could have been closer to his father than RD! And the collaboration argument I made also finds its ‘evidence’ here when RD says that he was among those to whom SD would give the antara after composing the mukhda and there would be a kind of competition among them on many songs.

“What I didn’t know then was that Pancham used to chip in to rehearse the singer only when the
original tune-idea was his, as obviously. ‘Aankhon mein kya ji’ was likewise. I recall Pancham
coming into rehearse me for Dada’s ‘Teen Deviyan’ duet with Kishore: ‘Are yaar meri tum bhi ho
ghazab’. However, when we were at such rehearsals, Pancham never let it on that the tune was, in
actual fact, his handiwork. But soon after, when I came to sing for Pancham in ‘Pati Patni’, a film he
himself was scoring, I realized that the solo for it he wanted me to render, ‘Maar Dalega Dard-EJigar’
was like nothing I had never heard before.

“Pancham in an 1982 Filmfare interview remembered that once he was out with his friends to watch Dev Anand’s Funtoosh and he jumped out of his seat when the song Ae meri topi palat ke aa started playing. He wrote a letter to his father “accusing” him of stealing his tune. To which Sachinda responded with a confirmation that it was indeed his son’s tune.”

“Yes, it can now be told that it was R.D. Burman, not S.D. Burman, who conceived and executed the music score of Aradhana.

Dada Burman was far too ill during the recordings of Aradhana to alter substantially the shape and direction RD gave to the film’s tuning and orchestration. Insiders knew this, none more so than Shakti Samanta as the maker of Aradhana.”

“I say Sachin Dev-Burman in the face of the fact that it was Rahul Dev-Burman who handled the ‘core’ music of Aradhana, Dada Burman being too ill to attend any of the rehearsals after recording those first two duets featuring Rafi.

And, into these rehearsals, it was Pancham who subtly brought in Kishore, having never been a great Rafi votary!

Dada Burman was in no physical position really to object even if he heard about this. And, by the time S D Burman recovered enough to be at least there during the final Aradhana recordings, Pancham had it all wrapped up and ready in the voice of Kishore Kumar! ”

If you don’t believe those who were there, including those who worked with SDB and RDB and Shakti Samanta whom atleast 4 living persons have met, and even I have heard on Vividh Bharati and documented, how can you believe fans who were not there?

The best song to have African elements is Rehman composed “Beera” from Raavan. the singer Mustafa Kutaone actually sounds like an african and apart from having a superb percussion base and congo beats, there is something sounding similar to chicken pluckings here. No one can ever match Rehman on this terrain

Satyam,OT i believe the AAA song “Humko Tumse Ho Gaya Hai Pyaar” is the only song ever which features the voices of 4 greatest bollywood singers together- Kishore, Mukesh, Rafi and Lata- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ne9bbd4U-8

Also i hope Oldgold and Satyam may be able to answer these queries of mine- 1) is Kismet the first bwood film to feature an anti-hero(in the form of Ashok Kumar) ? 2) is Guru Dutt’s Baazi, the first bwood film to have ‘noir elements’? 3) is Kamal Amrohi’s Mahal the first bwood film on re-incarnation? 4) is Waqt the first bwood film to be based on ‘lost and found’ formula and is it also the 1st true multi-starrer (more than 2 heroes) hindi film? Thanks in advance

Munna Sir thanks much for the links but Oldgold is right regarding Mahal as i have seen the film. only Ashok Kumar is re-incarnated if i remember and not Madhubala.and i loved the twist ending. And i believe it’s the 1st bwood film to have “gothic elements”. i much preferred it too Madhumati. And who can forget the lovely song “Aayega Aanewala”. btw it also has some noir elements but not comletely noir(in the hwood sense) like Baazi

http://www.outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?281005
“Many believe Mahal is about a beautiful ghost ensnaring Hari Shankar. But the real twist is the reincarnated lover. Kamini’s ghostly appearances distract us into believing she is the one who is reincarnated. In fact, it is Hari Shankar who is reborn with the soul of the mansion’s former inhabitant. He says as much in dialogue; but no scene conveys this with certainty, and this could be considered a narrative flaw. The viewer is left somewhat confused, and the only helpful clue is the song ‘Aayega, aayega… aanewala aayega’. It isn’t ‘Aayegi, aayegi…aanewali aayegi’. ”

Oh, so there is mystery shrouding the story.Thanks much much for the link.I remember Kamini (madhubala) masquerading as a ghost and this fact is revealed in the court by herself. i think i have the cd of the film at home so i will check. btw that outlook piece on Mahal is really good- it will be good if we can have a separate thread on it. i believe it’s from the ‘100 yrs of indian cinema’ edition

In Ashok Kumar’s mind Madhubala is the lost love of his previous birth.
The thing about this reincarnation is that he doesn’t remember his previous birth with as much clarity as in Madhumati. I don’t know if it is a ‘given’ that the incarnated character ‘must’ recall everything.
I feel that the painting was to clarify to the audience that it was him, while Ashok Kumar himself only recaptures a sense of a loss from his previous birth which made his mental state anchor on to a ‘manipulating’ (?) Madhubala.

Kismet is certainly the first such iconic film with a bit of an anti-hero but I cannot be absolutely certain that there weren’t films before this that had such protagonists. But Kismet inaugurates the history that matters in this sense.

Baazi as Bollywood’s first noir? Never thought about it before but that’s very probably true. These elements were present in films that predate Baazi but as a proper and sustained set of aesthetic choices Baazi is quite probably the first. But one could have a bit of a debate here. Mahal has noir elements and comes before Baazi. However if noir is understood also as a set of thematic choices then Baazi gains precedence once again. On the other hand this debate is not really settled even in the West. Noir for instance has much in common with German Expressionist cinema of the 20s and even prior to this and in this manifestation it most often deals with horror subjects. So it’s a question of how one defines things. But Baazi probably has the better claim in the sense of the most common definition of noir which fuses those aesthetic choices with thematic ones.

Waqt is commonly considered the first multistarrer. I certainly can’t think of another major film before this that had three significant leads. On the lost and found formula Anmol Ghadi in the 40s had this. It was a very iconic film of that age. But in the somewhat more masala format Waqt is again the first. Again I say these things with some caution because I am not familiar with the cinema of the 30s. Most of it is very hard to come by and a lot just doesn’t survive. So sometimes when you read scholarly books on the larger subject you come across examples of certain themes unexpectedly. Nonetheless it is correct to choose Kismet and Mahal and Waqt for being ‘first’ in different ways because it is not just about a film that’s literally first but one that can then inaugurate a tradition. If no one follows it’s a first but hardly an influential film. The Waqt example with respect to the masala cinema that followed, mostly in the following decade is obvious. However even with Kismet one could make the claim that the great trio of the 50s owes something to Ashok Kumar and Kismet inasmuch as all three were often anti-heroes too. This was perhaps especially true for Dilip Kumar and Dev Anand compared to Raj Kapoor.

By the way I often have this odd sense that you ask questions the answers to which you already know and sometimes they’re even part of the questions as in this case!

Satyam, thanks so much for taking pains to answer my questions so comprehensively- learned a lot of knew things. On ur last bit, i don’t know what to say, just that i had never even heard of Anmol Ghadi and German Expressionist Cinema before u mentioned it.(had i known the answers of the questions, I would not have been proven wrong by Oldgold’s answers where she mentioned that there were many ‘lost and found’ films before waqt- by now u should have known that i hardly know stuff to be true 🙂 )

btw i believe this is the 1st time i have asked you such a question. anyway you are spot-on when you said that there is a huge difference between a film being just a 1st (in something) and it being a trendsetter. i may be wrong but as far i know, the 1st time dev anand played a character with negative shades was in Guru Dutt’s ‘Jaal’. on dilip kumar, i thought his characters had negative shades in Amar, Aadmi, Qila (and maybe Andaz).

Oh! Thanks much Oldgold. Your knowledge of old films is amazing(i guess only Satyam can give u competition here).and yes u r right i had forgotten abt tumsa nahi dekha. i believe maybe Waqt brought back the formula of ‘lost and found’ into mainstram cinema.

>. i believe maybe Waqt brought back the formula of ‘lost and found’ into mainstram cinema.

No the ‘lost found stoties seemed to have been flourishing at that time.
At least one comes immediately to mind – the 1963 Phir Wohi Dil Laya Hoon, and then there was Kashmir Ki kali in 1964
Waqt was in 1965

OK, I think I will try to bring this one back on topic, since there is a lot of off topic discussions going on.

I agree with Satyam. RD was almost certainly involved in a lot of SD stuff . The musician closest to SD was RD himself. And all those RD interviews suggest hat too.

Coming back to Abhimaan , could RD have a hand on few of its songs? I know that RD was supposedly kicked out of SD’s team and the style of orchestration is obviously very different from RD. But it was RD who had to finish these because of his father’s death. And the style of composition has some similarities with some of RD’s later compositions. For example, listen to RD songs like “Tere bina Jiya Jaye Na” or “Rim Jhim gire sawan” – while the arrangement is RD style, but the compositions can easily pass off as an abhimaan style composition. And these songs were created much after SD’s death.

I will give the benefit of doubt to SD as certain things do suggest that it’s SD’s, but I think the possibility of RD’s involvement is not completely out of hand.

The imagination runs here very wild!
Because Rd later got inspired from his father’s songs, so …….
I don’t know whether to cry or laugh!
I must give some of you credit for imagination.
SDB married in 1938, RDB was born in 1939.
Possibly he started inspiring his dad from the day he was conceived.
Why not?
I am not going to be part of mad-house.

Utkal uncle: do u carry hand held cameras in your interviews. Are u based in the states or europe.
Are u interested in interviewing any euro auteurs and actresses (with me) ?

ROFL
Not taking anything away from rdb or sdbm find this whole pretext of a dodgy dad trying to steal tunes and take credit (overtly or passively) from a magnanimous boy wonder is a bit far fetched to say the least…
There are many instances of ‘errant’ sons but not many that One can think of such ‘errant’ dads
Perhaps sdb is one of the v rare ones lol

No, I am only talking about a possibility. I did say it’s most likely SDB’s alone.

I think “stealing” is an extremely inappropriate word here. With RD working as SD’s assistant the situation becomes SD-RD, a bit like laxmi-pyare or shankar-jaikishen or kalyan-anand. Nobody has a clue about what came from whose mind – was it shankar or was it jaikishen that came up with something.
Now SD being much older than RD may have the final say, but I think it is quite ridiculous to think that RD didn’t have any important input at all – especially in the later years, when he already had some independent films under his belt – given how RD always said how close he was to his dad and how they discussed everything.

One of the things I find amazing about SD is that his best seems to have come in his later years – mostly in his sixties and late fifties. I am not saying that this is only because of RD. Not at all. But I do find this amazing. This isn’t very normal, one can’t find many examples like this. May be one reason for this is that he didn’t take too many works. He preferred to work on few films at a time. Also, like RD said, he often gave the antara to others. So, may be by reducing the work-load he managed to work at a very high level.

Btw anand -am a v big fan of rdb myself
But have seen a certain ‘neo-rdb’ born yesterday element nowadays
Suddenly mushrooming from everywhere under the carpet claiming to have understood n enjoyed him all the way…
Now when he’s suddenly become the ‘hep’ and ‘ done’ thing
Not saying u are one of them though lol
But it becums a bit evident from rh choices sometimes ..
Btw what are your top ten rdb compositions -will be interest to read (after a movie I’m watching shortly ..)

Eh? I don’t see what you mean here. People like what they like, there is no point in trying to make them justify it.

Choosing a top 10 is beyond me. Top 100 may be possible with big effort. If you really push hard enough to the edge, may be a top 50.
And I am not going to do that here.
One thing I can say is that one of my recent fascinations about RDB has been with his child songs. The few child songs of RD that I have heard like :
1>Lakdi ki kati
2>Ek din Bik Jaega(child version)
3>Tera Mujhse hai(child version)

I have found them all to be very wonderful songs. And I am trying to make a list of all such songs that RDB made.

In some cases like “phoolon ka taaron ka” the child version is wonderful, but still gets beaten by the adult kishore version which was sung at the climax of the movie.

I am trying to make a list of all RD songs which has lip sync given by a child. Help me out here. My theory is that each of them is bound to be great.

Some other songs are sung not by children, but on children. Strangely, one video on youtube credits “Maine kaha phoolon se” from Mili to RD and not SD. Was this made after SD died?

Also there is scope for fighting for eternity over whether “Chanda hai tu” from Aradhana is SD or RD.

Not sure if “Tujh se naraz nahin zindagi’ may be called a song on child, but it does contain children.
“Aaja Piya tohe pyar doon” from RD’s BKS also has children filmed during the song, but this definitely can’t be considered a child song. However, this is definitely one of the best songs ever.

Thanx anand 🙂
U surely are a true rd burman buff and not the ones who have suddenly heard a few rdb remixes or ‘baby doll’ cover versions of ‘Chura liya hai tumne’ etc and call themselves rdb fans
Ps – good point about the ‘child songs’
Though for me the towering one here is of course the one from Masoom- both versions
Actually the debate should be which of the two (male or female) is better
Incidentally this is a film/song where even naseers fast developing narcisisstic tendencies were kept in check probably due to the good company of burman and gulzar (& shekhar kapoor)
“phoolon ka taaron ka” and the mili folksong-ish ones are notable mentions
Ps-incidentally I’m a bigger fan of his relatively little songs than the usual suspect biggies (not only due to fatigue and repetition)
Just a random example-
‘Raah pe rehte hain’ – namkeen
‘ Jane bhi do yaar’-inaam 10000
His obscure stuff is actually better somewhat ..

A lot of young people these days only discover RDB through remixes. I think it’s a shame that a lot of young people only find RDB through remixes because most of the top TV channels like MTV, V etc do not even reserve a few hours for old hits.
I don’t think anyone will even feel like watching stupid remixes of “chura liya” if they can see the real song with Zeenat.

I believe there should be channels dedicated to old music.

There are some music that is immortal and appeals to all generations. “Chura liya hai” is one , S-J’s “Pyaar Hua Iqraar” is another one. There are so many timeless songs. Why don’t they have TV channels dedicated to old music?

For me, this ‘Burman Gharana’ where both ‘Old Monk & Chhote Nawab’ were part of, alongwith other members like Basu, Manohari, Marutirao, Kersi, Bhupinder etc has given me so much pleasure that I have stopped dissecting their songs to figure out the ‘sole’ composer of the numbers. Movies like Bewaqoof, Naughty Boy, Apna Haath Jagannath, Benazir, Ziddi, Tere Ghar Ke Saamne, Guide, Jewel Thief, Teen Devian, Aradhana, Talash, Gambler etc have such lovely blends of the styles of both Father & Son, that the end result is mind boggling. Music is a collaborative effort & this ‘Burman Band’ has been a true blessing to the hindi film industry.

This is exactly what Mr H Q Chowdhury, author of ‘Incomparable Sachin Dev Burman’ has said in his interview with me in Octiber 2011. The last para says exactly what Mr Archisman Mozumdar has said about ‘Burman Band’

HQ Chowdhury’s on Meeting with Shakti Samanta
In 2001, I met Shakti Samanta, during an International Film Festival. And when I met him, I asked him, “Who composed the songs of Aradhana (1969)?” Then I continued, “I heard that SD Burman got sick at that time”.

He replied, “No, he got sick much later”.

Then I again clarified, asking him, ”You mean to say, SD Burman composed all the songs of Aradhana?”

“Yes, he composed all the songs of Aradhana, and you can quote me.” This is verbatim. And he added that “RD Burman only composed, according to his instructions, background music”.

And my common sense says, background music in only given after the film is completed, with the songs recorded earlier, and picturised earlier. This is the story about Aradhana’s music.

Another thing that he added, “Why are people asking the same question again and again! Isn’t that it is coming from the same house?” That was his final say on that.

There is some politics here. SD always preferred Lata and this might have miffed some and thus they maybe trying to discredit SD’s contribution.
Thank god, RD did not assist SJ, MM, LP etc. otherwise all there hit numbers would have been attributed to him.

I think you didn’t read their claiming credit for Abhiman too when RD wasn’t assisting his dad, just because some of RD’s later tunes, after SD’s death, seem to be inspired by Abhiman tunes, instead of accepting that RD got inspired.

This discussion is futile. I suggest we all stop it and enjoy father and son’s music.

Abhimaan may not be an RDB work, but I feel RD almost certainly had some hand in Aradhana and possibly Jewel Thief. At least “Kora Kagaz Tha” seems confirmed to be an RD work, based on several interviews, including by RD himself. But I do strongly feel that SD’s Abhimaan inspired RD and not the other way around.

Sorry, if I offended any SDB fans. I myself regard SDB very highly.
He was a genius.
And personally, I don’t really care if SD indeed did everything in Aradhana. I will stop here since I think i have indeed opened the can of worms like bliss said.

The only thing I will say though is that if RD did indeed help his father a bit – it should not be seen as son trying to discredit his father. They are a family. RD himself has always said about how much he really learnt from from his father

Hi Anand,
I like your reply. Here I am posting my interview with Mr Kersi Lord on Sachinda. This is the 1st part of my entire interview with him. I am not going to fall into any debate on this post, as it takes me away from my research. Best wishes all fans of SDB and RDB. The URL is:

LOL indeed.
The writer seems to be more of an RD hater than an SD fan.

70s is widely believed to be the downfall of indian music?
RDB didn’t have that many hits with kishore kumar?
RD was just a copycat and only had a momentary appeal?

These claims are so ridiculous that it’s hard not to LOL.

70s is widely believed to be possibly the best musical decade.
It was in the 80s when music probably hit a low phase with all the loud and disco music and excessive instrumentation . But RD wasn’t responsible for it. Rather, his songs with Gulzar, and also films like Saagar etc kept the melody alive when a lot of others were producing loud music. RD himself said in interviews that one thing he learned from hs father was that simple was beautiful.

As for Kishore Kumar, RD was definitely the best to use Kishore’s voice, although Kalyan-Anand, Laxmi-Pyare and of course SD had several memorable songs with kishore.

And lastly, about RD being just a copycat and having a momentarily appeal:-

Apart from 5 or 6 songs, I have never felt that his songs were blatant copies of the original. He certainly was inspired for several songs , everyone takes inspiration in someway. But his inspirations were mostly good ones.

He did use “samples” of various sizes in several songs. But even when these samples became a little too big, he still presented them in a unique way. You can always see RD’s talent in these songs.

“Chura liya hai” is a very good inspiration and in no way a copy. Even itwofs admits that much. It uses a very small sample and one can easily see RD’s genius in that song.

And RD’s best songs were his originals and experimental ones.

Some of the names he praises like Nayyar or Shankar-Jaikishen were probably more directly influenced by western songs than RD was.

On E24 I watched a program today called Mera Gaana kab Aayega which is about various people picking their favourite songs that they would like to listen and 6 out of 10 songs were RD songs and most songs belonged to 70s as well. This , of course, is not the average score. Normally RD gets only half this many songs, but he is the only one who can manage 60% or more songs in one episode.

On Sony Mix there comes a program called Raina Beeti Jaye on prime time(9 pm) concentrating on old muic and notice that the name itself comes from a RD song.
Anand bakhsi’s Autobiography is called “Main Shayar Badnaam”, an RD song. Gulzar says that it was with RD that he grew musically.

Surely, these facts wont be true if RD’s music appeal was just momentary.

Interestingly, RD himself was full of praise for Dev Anand when he stuck to SD for Guide. He felt that Dev saab proved that he was not one of those fair weather friends. Whereas the author discovers a very different meaning.

The authors claims that RD could have done a far better job because there was a single instrument he couldn’t play. Really? I can only imagine what he could have produced with today’s instruments and computers.

i am a balochistani and i love RDBurman the genius so much from my CHILDHOOD,,, RD’s music runs in the blood of his true fans, in the breaths, because he was truly a magician ,
well as for as this topic is concern Brother MOTI i never needed any source like dev anand , rajesh khanna , lata ji , asha ji waghera for confirmation that which song RD did for SD…………. i knew it long before that this Aradhana song by SD this is by RD , Gaata Rahe was RD i knew far before than Dev saab’s interview , Karle Pyar Karle was RD we know it,, most of BAROOD and SHARMILI songs r by RD we knew , “asal men RDB ke surr khud bataate hain jataate hain ke main PANCHAM hun .. RDB ne khud kabhi muu se naheen kaha woh bada aadmi hy thats why aaj uss ke liye uss ke hum jaise bhagt keh rahe hain”………….. as Gulzar saab said “he was truly a craftsman” to woh itna azeem tha k jataata nahi tha…………… Hum to sunn ke jaante hain and sir aap na maanen but TIME will prove for them who need someone else’s quote,,,, we know it by SURR OF SOUL…………..
VASH O SALAMAT BAATAY
Love U all from PANCHAM FAN CLUB BALOCHISTAN

Actually you have it exactly the other way. Precisely because the offspring of other great music directors and other artists around the world did not (in 99% of the cases) become like their parents, RD must have been special! If it were about the parent somehow ‘teaching’ genius to the child there would have been lots of other RDs around!

yes my mistake on that, you are correct. But see Javed Akhtar here at 3.10:

what you are unable to explain is why there is this entire RD industry of such stories which comes from reliable sources in very many cases. This isn’t like the Shakespeare industry where his contemporary playwrights and so on had no doubts about his identity while others created this industry. With SD you have people like Asha Bhosle or Dev Anand (who started working with SD and had no sane reason to favor the son! who held up Guide when SD was sick because he wouldn’t have anyone else) and many other industry stalwarts as well.

The idea that everyone else is unreliable or misguided or naive or what have you or that somehow Dev Anand or Shammi Kapoor had vested interests here is a bit hard to believe. Abrar Alvi’s name is on Sahib Bibi aur Ghulam. Everyone knows Guru Dutt directed this one for all practical purposes. Similarly it doesn’t take anything away from SD to suggest RD might have had a had in ‘some’ of his songs. And by the way it’s not even as if SD is regarded by common consent as the greatest composer of his age. He was one among many giants. So not sure what the big fuss with RD is. It’s not as if he gets competition only with RD and is otherwise supreme! He isn’t even otherwise!

>what you are unable to explain is why there is this entire RD industry of such stories which comes from reliable sources in very many cases.

Are you able to explain why after so many years, and after the death of both these stories are coming up, and everyone jumping on to the bandwagon?

My explanation is that DEV Anand always wanted to align himself with the young and joined the bandwagon, Asha cannot be trusted in this matter, Javed Akhtar would even have ghazals credited to his ancestors leave alone crediting RDB (it seems to be in his blood).

Proof in these matters should come from the mouth of BOTH the horses who are now dead.

It’s useless beating a dead horse!

BUT, BE HAPPY!!!
A couple of generations later (or even the ‘next’), these stories will become a fact – and history will have been tampered with – to suit the wave created by interested parties.

Just like TajMahal wasn’t built by SHah Jehan, Jane AUsten didn’t write her books (it was her editor), Shakespeare was not a real person the plays were written by someone else (perhaps someone on the mayfair on his way to the new world, thus the plays belong to the US), Bible was rewritten in America, RDB composed more than what is thought to have been less, while SDB has composed less than what is thought to have been more – the list is endless.

Actually agree with Oldgold here
THere is something dodgy in these allegations
Unless rdb was actually a ‘stepson’ of sdb or sdb was an obnoxiously unreasonable person (which he doesn’t appear!!)
One cannot fathom why will he discredit his sons work, forget ‘taking away’ credit…
Yes, it is a teamwork and there maybe a phase where sdb was the known name and hence the music may have to be packaged under his name-but don’t see that as being significant
Similarly, didnt rdb get his initial grounding or ‘initiation’ in music under his dad !! Now have far can one go in this ‘teasing’ out of credit …

If you want reliable sources, I have many. Here is my interview (in my voice) with Kersi Lord, who is respected by all RDB lovers and is fortunately alive and anyone can meet him. In this interview he says RDB wasn’t even present during ‘Roop tera mastana’ recording. He adds that he got instructions from SDB about the situation of the song. He adds that he has even checked up with Manohari Singh, who confirmed that RDB wasn’t present during recording.

Unfortunately, our youngsters have been fed on lies by interested persons who are making money from his name, which has become a money spinner.

These very people disappeared when RDB was down and out and had no work, and his films failed at the box office. And his mother was put in an old-age home, where were those people then, who now are singing praises of him.

Enjoy music of all, and don’t take away credit from for the other. RDB surely does not need fans who support him by stealing away songs of other MDs, including his own father.

Getting into this SDB vs RDB discussion, specifically Roop Tera Mastana. It has a distinct SDB sound to it, maybe RDB infused a couple of notes here and there. Just see how ‘Roop Tera’ seems to have been derived from ‘Raat Akeli Hai’. The bass in RTM is distinctively SDB’s, by use of bongo or some such percussion instead of tabla.

And as for Motiji’s video – firstly thanks for the video – this makes it much more credible. However, there are few things I observed here:
1> Kesri-ji confesses that he has no knowledge of the composition process involved, just of the recording.
2> He just says that he was one of those involved in the arrangement and SD gave him full freedom. This is not giving credit to SD – this is more like indirectly giving credit to himself.
3> He confesses that SD was indeed ill at one point during the film and RD did the work at that time.

I don’t see how any of that contradicts what we were saying – neither the Amit Kumar story is contradicted. It doesn’t tell us whose idea was it to use this tune and I said before – a lot of editing is done outside of recording session – so RD might have had involvement in the final edit.

And the main claims about Aradhana were about “mere sapno ki rani” by kaka “kora kagaz tha” by RD himself and Shammi. Nothing challenged here.

well, this is a Bengali video featuring Pradipto Sengupta, one of the musicians who has worked with Pancham da and his team members such as manohari da.
He explains what Manohari da has described to him- When SD burman used to compose, RD burman will often do various experiments with it. And such was his reputation as a technical genius that producers/directors often asked SD burman to use RD burman’s help or advice – because pancham da was so advanced for that time that it’s almost unimaginable.
Look at all the best orchestration works of SD burman – aradhana, prem pujari, guide,jewel theif – Pancham da was ALWAYS the assistant.

EVEN TODAY, if you go to work for music director, you will often be asked about “how did Pancham da do this? how did he do that?”

Interestingly, about aradhana, they say while ” mere sapno ki” was by pancham, for “roop tera mastana” they say that SD burman was beautifully inspired by a very famous tune – but they don’t say what this tune was.
Such is the magic of Pancham da that some people in that show have abandoned their original career plans and became musicians ONLY because of pancham da.
I remember Anu malik also saying that it was only pancham da’s music that inspired him to become a musician. RD Burman is the god of music perioid.

who is ‘kesri sahab’ btw?
in my limited info–there was/is a human called “kersi lord”–is that the 1?
“Sorry, messed up the name”–oh uve already apologised (for some other name misquoted , ok)
anyhow–
all this about sd burman ‘stealing’ and ‘using’ tunes created by child genius (or infact fetus or embryo!) RD burman is a bit too much

a child psychologist maybe handy to sort out what seems like a complex even consisting of oedipal (besides others)
😉

Ultimately it’s SD burman’s work. If he doesn’t agree, the thing will not pass. It’s not about ‘stealing’, but giving ideas. And most of us are actually talking more about orchestration than so called “tunes”.

If I wanted , I could have gone much further. For example, here is a story floating around in the internet:

“Bhanuda related this story to Madhav – that ShaktiS came out of the rehearsal of Roop Tera Mastana disappointed with SDB’s tune for
it. And then
RD assured him that he takes it from there and he would give him the
emotions he wanted in the song.

I remember it clearly. RDB, Bhanu, Shakti Samantha, all were
there. RDB and
gang came out to escort Shaktida who was leaving, a bit low, as he was not
happy with the tune(and believe me, SD had literally sung the
mukhda only),
but dared not say anything to the old veteran SDB. Everyone else including
RDB had sensed it. RDB assured Shakti Samantha that he should not
worry and
that he himself will ensure through arrangement that the song reached its
mood and expectation. After Shakti da left…in Bhanuda’s words: “Pancham
hamaari taraf mooda aur bola ‘I take over from here’.”(Pancham turned
towards us and said “I take over from here). What Bhanuda meant was that
Pancham did not want any assistants to get in it, and himself wanted to
personally put his mind to the song, thereby honouring the commitment he
had given Shaktida.
Since this was a private conversation between
Kersi and me, I have no documentary evidence of the same, and I call upon the industry-guys Madhav and Ankush to cross-ckeck this from Kersi.
> >
>
> Checked out with Kersi. He was indeed asked by RDB to play the
> accordian in
> the harmonica style.
”

So according to them, RD was pulling the strings from behind for roop tera mastana.
I never brought any of these stories here – did I? I am not even saying to take all of these stories seriously.

All I said was that RD had a big helping hand – especially in the orchestration. Ultimately, it’s SD’s decision and RD got credited as the assistant. So he wasn’t a “victim” of SDB taking credit or “stealing” anything. All we(pancham fans) said is that RDB was a rather important assistant.

I don’t see why RDB being important in orchestration and assisting should be so offensive to anyone really?
Some MDs in bollywood had very little knowledge of orchestration and used others for the job. SD burman is obviously much better than that.
AA, you are basically saying “Oh so you are saying that SD is really evil”
This is nonsense. i never said anything remotely similar to that. You have twisted my words to mean something else entirely.

i get your point about ‘teamwork’ and orchestration though some here sort of claimed that some/most of sdb hits are actually rdbs works ‘gifted’ away by him to his dad… or stolen by the dad (effectively in less crude terms)
good that u r not saying that though!

“here is a story floating around in the internet”
theres another story floating in the internet–that i ‘make out'(and do all sorts of other enjoyable things) with the likes of katrina kaif and anushka sharma and that too @ the same time…
hope u get my point –cheers 🙂
ps-enjoy rdbs music–i also love it

I get your point AA, just that I feel that you sometimes don’t get my and other RD fans’ points in a straight manner.

AA, “stealing” is something that is done without consent, I am sure RD had no problems with his father using his tune.
Not to mention “ideas” can’t be stolen, it’s just a funny phrase in English.
MDs in bollywood have routinely used all sorts of inspirations. For example, SD himself used folk tunes like ‘allah megh de”, he used Rabindra Sangeet in Abhimaan. I don’t think you will call these “stealing”? If not, then RD giving a tune here and there to his father is in no way SDB stealing anything .

Secondly, as someone mentioned before that by Aradhana’s release time RD burman was already very much a popular MD himself.
Laxmikant-Pyarelal, Shankar- Jaikishen, Kalyanji-Anandji none of them had any problems having a shared credit. If it is said that may be RD(who was already a popular MD himself) shared 20-25% contribution to SDB’s music in films like Aradhana and the rest was SDB’s, then that doesn’t in any way belittle SDBurman. Saying that RDB was nothing more than a puppet is probably more belittling to SDB given that RDB was an independent MD himself. It will mean that SDB was really a dictator.

Moti Lalwani
I had interviewed Mr H. Q. Chowdhury, author of the recent book on Sachinda, ‘Incomparable Sachin Dev Burman’. The interview took place in Kolkata last year on September 30, 2011, when I was on my way to Agartala to attend birth anniversary of Sachinda on October 1.
Here in this video, HQ as he lovingly referred to by his friends, reminiscences about his meeting with the four stalwarts of our film industry, Shakti Samanta, Dev Anand, Anil Biswas & Salil Chowdhury , and what they told him about SD Burman.

Rajesh Khanna has said that he was WITNESS to the process of birth of “mere sapno ki rani” by RD Burman. That’s a very reliable source in my opinion.
Asha Bhosle and others have said how Pancham da often used to pass his own tune as his father’s to get his tune accepted.
R.D.Burman himself has said he sometimes composed tunes for his father. Pyaasa song being a classic example.

Why did Shakti Samanta sound annoyed and said “Why does it matter who composed? Don’t they belong to the same home?”

Interestingly, HQ Chowdhury has said that S.D.Burman knew his limits – that’s why he passed Madhumati to Salil Chowdhury. May be that is also why he passed HRHK to R.D.Burman.

Why was S.D.Burman keen on promoting RD Burman? Why did he take R.D.Burman to Bombay in the first place? Isn’t that all because he could see the potential in R.D.Burman? Isn’t it because he was more than confident that RD could succeed on his own?

R.D.Burman was doing pretty well under his own banner. He had several big hits before Aradhana. It’s just that he got a “western” label to his name – a label which some directors were not very fond of.

Why did Shankar-Jaikishen saw RD Burman as their biggest threat when RD Burman was virtually unknown?

Nobody here is saying that SD Burman was not a brilliant composer himself.
But RD Burman was a very special person himself.

I don’t think that either side is going to convince the other side, so I will quit/leave (at least for now).
Found this article:http://www.panchamonline.com/articles/tribute.htm
This article also said how SDB refused to interfere with his son’s projects.

I did some searching the internet about Aradhana. It’s hard to make out anything. One article claims that according to Manohari da, only “baagon mein bahar hain” was pancham’s tune, rest was SDB’s. Another article claims that apparently SDB wasn’t even present at the recording of “Kora kagaz tha” and “Mere sapno ki rani”. Some claim that even Meera had composed a few tunes for SDB in his career. According to another article Kesri lord and Shakti da have been denying RD’s contribution to Aradhana songs publicly since the 80’s, but privately they had hinted otherwise.

In the end I really don’t know what to believe and what the exact details were, but I am certain that pancham da had at least some involvement.

BTW, in an interview Mehmood said that R.D.Burman never had problems with offers. Many had spotted the talent in young pancham. He got plenty of offers even after Chhote Nawab, but declined because SDB suggested that success might get to his head. So, it seems to me that rather than being worried about RDB not getting offers, he was almost too confident that his son would succeed. What he was worried about was his son’s emotional maturity to handle success. Later, both of them wanted to create a separate identity for themselves and that’s when they separated.

I have written the following Email to the author, which is self explanatory. There is nothing like a solid proof, and no one can be better than Dev Anand to know the truth.
If anyone in this forum would like to receive the 5 attachments that I have sent to the author, please send me your Email address, and I shall oblige. Or, guide me how to upload them here.
……………………………………………………

There are a few inaccuracies in the book about which I will be writing to you as and when I get time. Whenever I write to you, I shall also give you ample proof of the inaccuracy with a hope that you take it positively, keep an open mind and make corrections in your book during the next edition.

I believe that The Deccan Herald and The Indian Express of September 15, 2013 (and possibly some other papers) carry the following Headlines:
“Musician Sachin Dev Burman was terribly upset with his son R D Burman’s composition in “Hare Rama Hare Krishna” and walked out of the studio when he heard the recording of the song ‘Dum maro dum’.”

This is far from the truth. The truth is that Dada Burman sat with Dev Anand, RD Burman and Asha Bhonsle on the studio floor while working on ‘Dum maro dum’ song. Dev Anand himself has said this while giving an interview to Ms Roshmila Bhattacharya for ‘HT Cafe’, the magazine section of ‘Hindustan Times’ dated September 26, 2008.

I am quoting here from the relevant interview:
Dev Anand,,: “I still remember those Dum maro dum days. Dada (S D Burman, Pancham, (R D Burman), Asha and I would squat on the studio floor while working on the song. These days we have electronic recordings.”

And common sense tells me that when Dada Burman, being the senior most member of the team, sits while ‘Dum maro dum’ song is being created, would have definitely given suggestions on how to compose it.

I am marking a copy of this mail to Ms Roshmila Bhattacharya who had interviewed. You may contact her for the authenticity of the interview if you so desire.

I would like to compliment you on the overall excellence of the book in spite of some inaccuracies.

Warm regards,
Moti Lalwani

CC: Ms Roshmila Bhattachrya
Sorry ma’am for this mail, but the truth should prevail. I hope you will excuse me.

Attachments: As the pages are of large i.e. of A3 size, I have scanned the pages in parts and am attaching in five attachments as follows:
Attachment 1: Upper half of first page.
Attachment 2: Lower half of first page.
Attachment 3: Upper half of second page, which carries the relevant question and Dev Anand’s answer.
Attachment 4: Lower half of second page.
Attachment 5: Blown up portion of the question and the answer.

Apex,
‘Dum maro dum’ or ‘Rula ke gaya’ song, each suits the given situation in the movie. For a soulful listening, ‘Rula ke gaya’ is better, but you can’t play it when hippies collect and share drugs, etc.

Thank you dear apex.
I am fine. Let us not promote RDB at the cost of SDB. In fact all RDB fans must realise that RDB was RDB because of his father SDB who loved him and trained him extensively.

This is the extract of what Dev Anand had said in his interview published on September 26, 2008:

Question: “Why did it take you almost three decades to get back with your Dum maro dum girl?”
Dev Anand: “Believe me, it wasn’t deliberate. Asha is a singer with a unique voice which can really hit the high notes. This song from Chargesheet needed her to pitch it right. (Dreamily) I still remember those Dum maro dum days. Dada (S D Burman), Pancham (R D Burman), Asha and I would squat on the studio floor while working on the song. These days we have electronic recordings.”

Fairy tales are always nice to listen, but they are for kids who want to fantasize. But grown up don’t do that.
Watch this video interview of living legend Kersi Lord, who lives in Mumbai and was part of Pyaasa songs in which he played rhythm. He talks about ‘Jane ky tune kahi, and then ‘Sar jo tera chakraye’ where he says that RDB was not involved.
He is going to be 80 next month, has very good memory, and can meet anyone.
I have more proofs, but this should suffice. Watch and enjoy:

Listening to amalgam of exuberant beats and soulful songs playing on most music channels on his birthday,one can safely assume RD Burman – Gulzar – Kishore Kumar is probably the best combo in Indian music history.

Somehow for all his genius, I hate Rahman for spoiling our traditional Hindi music experience with all the experimentation with unknown singers where they just evaporate / disappear in thin air after just one hit song and one is never able to invest in either the playback singer therefore the actor – something which is fundamental to Indian music experience.

Who wouldn’t pine for a Bala Subramanyam to playback for Salman or a Aamir croon to Udit Narayan same way as Abhijeet was voice of SRK and Kumar Sanu for Ajay D.

ASHA BHOSLE has been declared the greatest Bollywood playback singer of all time by UK based Eastern Eye newspaper.

The legendary singer beat off tough competition from the past 85 years including elder sister Lata Mangeshkar in a first of its kind list that takes into account factors including number of songs, honours, international impact, versatility, fan base and popularity amongst fellow music industry professionals.

The evergreen 81-year-old was taken by surprise with the news of her topping the list.

“I thought being called the greatest was the prerogative of boxer Muhammad Ali. I thank Eastern Eye and everyone for tolerating me all these years,” said Asha.

Whilst Lata Mangeshkar came second in the list of talented singers, Mohd Rafi came third and Kishore Kumar was fourth. Other names who featured in the top 20 included Mukesh (5), current Bollywood music queen Shreya Ghoshal (7), Geeta Dutt (10), Sonu Nigam (14), Kumar Sanu (17) and Kavita Krishnamurthy (19).

Motiji, I have nothing against you.
I am an S.D.Burman fan too, and I appreciate your interviews.

But I have only 3 questions.1>Why does it matter so much if RD had indeed contributed a few tunes?

After all, SD Burman often drew inspiration from folks, rabindra- sangeet and other sources. What is wrong if he drew a bit from his genius son? As I see it here, even RD Burman fans are not saying that SD should not get the credit. They just want a little recognition for RD’s early talent.

2>How does any of these interviews prove anything?

Recording is only the final phase of the song. Even if I assume that RD wasn’t present in the studio while recording, it does not rule out the possibility that he might have had some key inputs.
Can these musicians really know more than, say Asha Bhosle (or any other close friend or relative of RD with whom he might have had private conversations), about how songs were conceived?

Also, most people would feel moral hesitation to go against SD in this kind of topic.(There is a possibility that some these musicians are simply being loyal to SD.)

For example, I remember reading a bengali article after Manna Dey’s death. In one place Manna Dey was recalling how RD had claimed part of the credit for the song “Roop tera mastana” in a newspaper interview. (And this was when SD was alive)

I would be very surprised if RD took partial credit for something he had no hand in it. RD was someone who gave away credit to others even when their contributions were minimal.

3> And if you are suggesting that tons and tons of people are lying, the question would be why?

Why would Arun Dutt lie? Why would Asha Bhosle lie? All for promoting a dead person?

Dear Joy,
Sorry for delay in reply. You are aware that I am busy in my interviews to bring out truth for our younger generations. Now I will try to answer your points.

1. SDB and RDB (The Two Geniuses)
In our golden period, besides SD Burman Dada, we had many greats like Husnlal Bhagatram, Naushad sahib, S-J, Madan Mohan, and many others.

Tell me, besides SDB’s son RDB, who else’s son became genius? None. Have you thought why such greats could not train their wards to even become a ‘B’ grade composer?

Are you aware what training father SDB arranged for his beloved son RDB? I am sure you and some other youngsters would be aware of all the greats who took of their time off to train Rahul at the request of father Burman Dada. Dada asked his Pancham to learn tabla first. “Tabla? What is there to learn in tabla?” retorted Pancham, thinking tabla is a lowly instrument. “You want to be music director, Pancham? Tabla will teach you rhythm”.

Then Dada arranged greats like Brijen Biswas in Calcutta, followed by Pandit Samta Prasad of Benaras to train Pancham in tabla. This was followed by father arranging Ustad Ali Akbar Khan for sarod.

And the greatest training for son Pancham was his own father who was the greatest composer ever of our times. History will judge SDB as the best one day, and all others behind him. This is due to not only in composing music, in which many others were also excellent, but on overall aspects. This space is too short.

I have to answer you in parts due to time constraint. Please bear with me. Do remind me if I delay. Consider this as Part One. In the next part I may take up what sort of training son Pancham got from his loving father SDB.