fundamentallybroken wrote:Hate to say it, but unless I feel some scholly love from CU by the end of the week, I'll probably be withdrawing and sending my seat deposit to DU. I like the idea of CU, but after the 2 month wait time for acceptance, the 4(ish) week wait for scholly info, and the general outlook for CU's treatment by the legislature in balancing their budget, I feel a lot more love from DU right now.

They've surprised me before, but I'm not expecting much at this point.

I'm a huge CU fan. I love it here and I'm about to graduate. I have told many people to choose DU over CU if they have compelling reasons. Perhaps you do as well, but the reasons you list here make no sense.

You want to go to DU because they let you in first and CU made you wait 2 months? That CU hasn't been quicker with scholarships?

Your point about the Colorado budget makes no sense either. It's true that tuition has risen dramatically over the past few years--but it's still cheaper than DU. It's true that the State is in not in great financial shape but Colorado's contribution to CU amounts to less than 4% of our funding. The relevant metric is how much debt you'll have after a degree from CU and how much debt you'll have after a degree from DU.

It's sad that the cost of attendance gap has narrowed so much. When I chose to come here in 2008, CU in-state tuition was $15k+/year cheaper.

Hi rekopter,

Sorry, my post was a bit more 'insidery' than I intended it - there's folks here that I've had discussions with in both the CU and the DU threads, so I understand why you didn't think I was making much sense.

For starters, what I said about the Colorado budget has nothing to do really with the price difference between CU and DU, but only to do with the way Colorado's state higher education facilities are going to fare as revenue projections come in over the next few months. There's very few areas in the state budget that the legislature can cut without running into constitutional challenges, and higher education is at the top of that list. And yes, I know, the law school is fairly separate from needing state money, but the support given CU at large by the legislature definitely does have an effect on the law school, and it should be a real fear that losing a lot of funding and support will be detrimental to the entire CU system.

Second, you're about to graduate from CU - congratulations! You don't say how old you are, but I'll just put a guess out there that you're mid-20s (totally stabbing in the dark there, only because that seems to be the average around here. If you're older, no offense meant!) I've been out of the system a bit longer myself, and have already had what amounts to one fairly successful career, which has led me to pursue law school to further that career, or even launch into a new one. However, that shifts my relevant metrics a bit away from a simple calculation of debt for CU vs. debt for DU. If it was just that, I would have put my seat deposit down at DU a long time ago, since $25k/year there will beat what CU is giving in-staters these days (from what I've seen, it's max $12k 1L, then either 4 or 8 for 2 and 3L. Assuming max, and just looking at tuition, that's a total of $66k for CU, $27k for DU. ish.) However, I know what debt is like, and frankly even $200k doesn't really scare me, as long as I think I'll be working (yeah, even if I'm 'only' making $50k or $60k after school).

What is really driving my decision is what my career trajectories look like from each school. At CU, I don't know anyone. I could probably work hard, try to excel, and hopefully get a clerkship or something else that I could leverage into a position with the feds in DC or elsewhere. This is compelling, as new adventures are exciting. However, I also have a wife, and a 3-year-old son, and a house, and friends in Denver. I know some professors at DU both personally and professionally. I have numerous legal contacts in the Denver midlaw market, as well as some substantial opportunities to 'consult' a few hours here and there while in school to still bring some money in to pay the bills.

Basically, my reasons aren't financial - I can swing the finances either way if I really want to. What it is really coming down to for me is whether I want to gamble on a new adventure that may or may not lead somewhere, or stick to what I know and use my current trajectory to my advantage. I know my post made it sound all financial, but trust me: there's way more involved than that.

That's an average shift of around six spots per year. In terms of student quality, CU traditionally deserves to be ranked around 30; in terms of reputation, around 38; in terms of expenditures (the most variable of the major factors), CU usually deserves to be well into the second tier.

Occasionally, the law school decides to spend a pile of money on major revamps of programs and faculty, or to build a new law building, in which case we jump in the rankings to around 30. CU Law's normal, background level of expenditure, however, drags us back into the 40s. 47 is probably too low (I suspect that last year's employment numbers might be dragging it down a couple spots), but the 32 of a few years ago is way too high. Somewhere between last year's 38 and 2007's 43 is probably about right.

typ3 wrote:Ugh. I hope I hear from CU this week. Colorado and Iowa are the slowest two in my cycle (the only 2 I have yet to hear from).

I really hope I hear back from them and I find one of the five golden tickets in it. If so I'll definitely be at April ASW.

I called yesterday. I submitted mid-january and got a complete e-mail early February. They said that my file was in committee and that the earliest a decision letter would be sent out was the end of this week, but might not be for another two weeks.

crit_racer wrote: I called yesterday. I submitted mid-january and got a complete e-mail early February. They said that my file was in committee and that the earliest a decision letter would be sent out was the end of this week, but might not be for another two weeks.

crit_racer wrote: I called yesterday. I submitted mid-january and got a complete e-mail early February. They said that my file was in committee and that the earliest a decision letter would be sent out was the end of this week, but might not be for another two weeks.

krad wrote:If it's any consolation mine took about 2 mos, and I am in-state. Good luck, though, I hope both you and typ3 hear some good news soon!

CU is really going to push my buttons by sending me an admittance letter with no $ after the April 1 ASW and asking for a deposit within a week. Sort of like my alma matter. Except they gave me a full scholarship, but it was after the ASW nonetheless . SOB's.

I am still kind of disturbed by the like, searing dislike of CU for DU. o.O I get that they compete for the market and everything, but man. The DU student I know harbored none of the same ill will the other direction.

It seems to me like the students who rep for CU would be better served by being POSITIVE on CU rather than NEGATIVE on DU. Just a thought.

I am still kind of disturbed by the like, searing dislike of CU for DU. o.O I get that they compete for the market and everything, but man. The DU student I know harbored none of the same ill will the other direction.

It seems to me like the students who rep for CU would be better served by being POSITIVE on CU rather than NEGATIVE on DU. Just a thought.

I am beyond puzzled by this comment because I have no ill feelings toward DU whatsoever. I routinely recommend DU over CU under certain circumstances.

I responded to fundamental because in his post it seemed like he was making a consequential choice for very poor reasons (because DU accepted him sooner, etc.) He has since followed up with a list of very appropriate reasons for him to choose DU over CU.

The prevalent meme in this thread that CU students have a "searing dislike for DU" is strange to me as a 3L at CU because I just don't see it here. I in fact have on many occassions praised DU both online and in person. At ASD in March I flat told someone to choose DU over CU.

I am still kind of disturbed by the like, searing dislike of CU for DU. o.O I get that they compete for the market and everything, but man. The DU student I know harbored none of the same ill will the other direction.

It seems to me like the students who rep for CU would be better served by being POSITIVE on CU rather than NEGATIVE on DU. Just a thought.

I am beyond puzzled by this comment because I have no ill feelings toward DU whatsoever. I routinely recommend DU over CU under certain circumstances.

I responded to fundamental because in his post it seemed like he was making a consequential choice for very poor reasons (because DU accepted him sooner, etc.) He has since followed up with a list of very appropriate reasons for him to choose DU over CU.

The prevalent meme in this thread that CU students have a "searing dislike for DU" is strange to me as a 3L at CU because I just don't see it here. I in fact have on many occassions praised DU both online and in person. At ASD in March I flat told someone to choose DU over CU.

I am still kind of disturbed by the like, searing dislike of CU for DU. o.O I get that they compete for the market and everything, but man. The DU student I know harbored none of the same ill will the other direction.

It seems to me like the students who rep for CU would be better served by being POSITIVE on CU rather than NEGATIVE on DU. Just a thought.

I am beyond puzzled by this comment because I have no ill feelings toward DU whatsoever. I routinely recommend DU over CU under certain circumstances.

I responded to fundamental because in his post it seemed like he was making a consequential choice for very poor reasons (because DU accepted him sooner, etc.) He has since followed up with a list of very appropriate reasons for him to choose DU over CU.

The prevalent meme in this thread that CU students have a "searing dislike for DU" is strange to me as a 3L at CU because I just don't see it here. I in fact have on many occassions praised DU both online and in person. At ASD in March I flat told someone to choose DU over CU.

Can Pufer chime in with his view about this supposed DU hatred?

Full at DU vs CU (assuming I ever get in). Advise me.

Full at DU > sticker at CU. I'd even go as far to say as full at DU > 75% scholly at CU (not that those happen.)

I am still kind of disturbed by the like, searing dislike of CU for DU. o.O I get that they compete for the market and everything, but man. The DU student I know harbored none of the same ill will the other direction.

It seems to me like the students who rep for CU would be better served by being POSITIVE on CU rather than NEGATIVE on DU. Just a thought.

I am beyond puzzled by this comment because I have no ill feelings toward DU whatsoever. I routinely recommend DU over CU under certain circumstances.

I responded to fundamental because in his post it seemed like he was making a consequential choice for very poor reasons (because DU accepted him sooner, etc.) He has since followed up with a list of very appropriate reasons for him to choose DU over CU.

The prevalent meme in this thread that CU students have a "searing dislike for DU" is strange to me as a 3L at CU because I just don't see it here. I in fact have on many occassions praised DU both online and in person. At ASD in March I flat told someone to choose DU over CU.

Can Pufer chime in with his view about this supposed DU hatred?

Full at DU vs CU (assuming I ever get in). Advise me.

Full at DU > sticker at CU. I'd even go as far to say as full at DU > 75% scholly at CU (not that those happen.)

Full at Iowa vs Full at DU vs Full at Minnesota vs 45k At Michigan vs CC vs CU (Assuming I ever get in)?

rekopter wrote:Can Pufer chime in with his view about this supposed DU hatred?

Yeah, there's really no DU hatred.

CU students do tend to get irked by the assertion that appears from time to time amongst DU types that there is no difference at all between CU and DU (there really is a difference in terms of faculty quality (particularly in terms of the use of adjuncts), student quality (at least in terms of stats), and the types of jobs that are available to grads of the two schools; to be clear, DU is a very good school if you want to work in Colorado, but the schools are not equivalent), and CU types tend to resent the CU career services department for not working as hard as the DU career services department (which is kinda' bullshit - the average DU student works harder at getting a job than the average CU student; it doesn't have much to do with career services).

typ3 wrote:It's a 3.0

Which is like 90 folks losing their scholarships, none of whom expected to get lower than a 3.0. Unless you're talking 2.8 or lower, it still deserves some thought.

To be clear, it's less this thread than the ASD. There was a 1L girl that kind of flipped her shit to try to describe to us how stupid it was to consider DU, which just struck me as in-groupy and/or insecure, and I saw rekopter's thing as an extension of that.

But I've been watching the thread the whole time and was able to see fundamentally's reasoning, and I assumed rekopter was too and was just being willfully obtuse. I stand corrected, as far as I can tell.

So I guess you just have 1 really energetic 1L trying to annoy the hell out of ASDers hah.

I saw nothing obtuse at all about rekopter's post as far as the CU/DU thing goes, and simply wanted to clarify why I'm leaning heavily toward DU right now.

I also have never felt any sort of tension between the two, either on TLS or among the alumni I've met in life. In fact, I was super surprised to hear about the ASD event - my guess is that it was insecurity first and foremost. I think someone also mentioned she was close to the bottom of her class, so I could understand her being sensitive when thinking about competing in a job market not only against those above her at CU, but a lot of people from DU as well!

Any way, thanks rekopter for saying earlier my points were good, and thanks both you and Pufer for all the great answers you've been giving all us 0Ls!

rekopter wrote:Can Pufer chime in with his view about this supposed DU hatred?

Yeah, there's really no DU hatred.

CU students do tend to get irked by the assertion that appears from time to time amongst DU types that there is no difference at all between CU and DU (there really is a difference in terms of faculty quality (particularly in terms of the use of adjuncts), student quality (at least in terms of stats), and the types of jobs that are available to grads of the two schools; to be clear, DU is a very good school if you want to work in Colorado, but the schools are not equivalent), and CU types tend to resent the CU career services department for not working as hard as the DU career services department (which is kinda' bullshit - the average DU student works harder at getting a job than the average CU student; it doesn't have much to do with career services).

typ3 wrote:It's a 3.0

Which is like 90 folks losing their scholarships, none of whom expected to get lower than a 3.0. Unless you're talking 2.8 or lower, it still deserves some thought.

-Pufer

I think I have a better shot of keeping my scholarship at DU than at Michigan. I could be wrong though.

Hey everyone, I thought it would be an appropriate time to jump in and say thanks for letting me browse all of your discussions! The thoughts you have provided are definitely helping me come to terms with the major decision I will be making soon. I'm still not in at Colorado, but (assuming I am admitted) it will come down to a choice between CU and DU. Thank you for illuminating some of the merits of both schools. I can definitely see myself staying in Denver to practice, and when I consider the money issue, it looks more and more likely that I will end up at DU.

Nonetheless, Crit-- I am praying that I get that Colorado letter in the mail, too. They have easily taken the longest of any school, which has been all the more painful considering it was/is(?) my top choice. I have my fingers crossed for both of us... and for anyone else out there who is still pacing until the mailman shows up each afternoon. Godspeed.

rekopter wrote:Can Pufer chime in with his view about this supposed DU hatred?

Yeah, there's really no DU hatred.

CU students do tend to get irked by the assertion that appears from time to time amongst DU types that there is no difference at all between CU and DU (there really is a difference in terms of faculty quality (particularly in terms of the use of adjuncts), student quality (at least in terms of stats), and the types of jobs that are available to grads of the two schools; to be clear, DU is a very good school if you want to work in Colorado, but the schools are not equivalent), and CU types tend to resent the CU career services department for not working as hard as the DU career services department (which is kinda' bullshit - the average DU student works harder at getting a job than the average CU student; it doesn't have much to do with career services).

typ3 wrote:It's a 3.0

Which is like 90 folks losing their scholarships, none of whom expected to get lower than a 3.0. Unless you're talking 2.8 or lower, it still deserves some thought.

-Pufer

You are massively incorrect about that last part, -Pufer. Denver offers scholarships to less than half the class and the stipulation to maintain the scholarship is set at median. 90 kids would be 1/3 the class, which would be about the total amount of kids who got scholarships in the first place. I spoke with admissions and its "very rare" to lose your scholarship. This is unlike other schools (Baylor comes to mind) who give out scholarships to 75% of 1Ls and set the stipulation to renew at the top 1/3.

Only a handful of kids massively underachieve and lose their scholarship at DU (NOTE: even if you are under median after the first year, you are given a free semester, or probationary status, to pull it back above median). Saying that "90 folks" lose their scholarships at DU on this board is potentially game changing for a lot of potential applicants. Be careful and get your facts strait.

Also, I agree with incoming students stats and to some extent job placement-- although the top students are no different at the two schools, it is only the bottom where you see the difference. Keep in mind DU is a bigger school, and so the top half of kids with 160 LSAT and up (160 is median for the full time program at DU) is like 150 students. That is close to your whole class size, right? It would seem that DU has about 50 to 75 kids with very high LSATs on big scholarships. Considering these facts are very important when comparing the two students bodies.

Lastly, your point about the faculties is pure speculation. Many law schools like DU and University of Houston are in destination cities and have great faculty despite their tier 2 status. DU faculty = CU faculty. Both are great. In fact, DU is on 5 or 6 specialty rankings every year, and that is a good measure of noted and published faculty.

The whole CU vs. DU thing is overblown and immature. If you cannot muster the attitude of who cares and I'll just do the best that I can please don't spread inaccurate data on this board and try to limit your posts to assertions about your own opinions.

For what its worth- Even though I'd rather live in Denver, I would really consider attending CU if the cost was within 40k or so. Its an absolutely awesome law school.