Poll Question: 8/13/14

Who is the best coach not in the Hall of Fame?

1) Tom Flores – The first Hispanic-American coach won two Super Bowls with the Raiders. Also won Super Bowl rings as a player with the Chiefs and assistant coach with the Raiders. A .538 career winning percentage. 2) Jimmy Johnson – Won two Super Bowls with the Cowboys. Engineered greatest turnaround in NFL history — from 1-15 in 1989 to Super Bowl champs inside of four years. A .566 career winning percentage in 10 seasons. 3) George Seifert – Won two Super Bowls with the 49ers. Inherited a Super Bowl champion from Bill Walsh and then became only the second coach in history to win a Lombardi Trophy in his first year as a head coach. A .649 winning percentage in 11 seasons. 4) Dick Vermeil – Took two franchises (Philadelphia, St. Louis) to Super Bowls 19 years apart — Eagles in 1980 and Rams in 1999. Won a Lombardi Trophy with Rams. A .525 career winning percentage in 15 seasons.

You raise an arguable point. Not totally sure I agree but when one looks at the list it’s hard to disagree. In the case of George Seifert some would ague he simply inherited a SB winning team from Bill Walsh and maintained it but he was still the leader. What hurts him is the debacle in Carolina when he came back. Made him seem more like a caretaker in SF than the architect. Same is true for Tom Flores, whose time in Seattle did not go well either.

Jimmy won two Super Bowls in Dallas but he really won three _ the third is credited to Switzer “(Bozo the coach” In that wonderful headline) but it was Jimmy’s team, one he built with draft picks, many from the Herschel Walker trade in which he bamboozled Mike Lynn and the Vikings. In many ways, Jimmy’s genius was as much personnel as coaching and he never made it work in Miami.

The new rules, which unfortunately favors contributors over players, make it easier for Johnson, who’s on my list far ahead of DeBartolo, who never contributed to anything in the league beyond the 49ers. Except … for being one of the owners who thwarted the election of Jim Finks and eased the path of Tagliabue. (who should have been in the hall years ago.)

But Jimmy is No. 1 on the list. Vermeil deserves a look as a success in two different eras. Seifert had a great record in SF but his flop in Carolina demonstrates who much that was Bill Walsh’s team. Flores was a good coach, not a great one, and worked in his day for an organization that was one of the tops in the league (we forget how good because of the fiasco of Al’s final decade or so. But HOF? I don’t think so.

Coaches remain in the general populous with players as modern-era candidates. So Johnson cannot be nominated as a contributor. And I would agree with you about Johnson’s personnel wizardry. He was a great coach — and made himself a great coach by pinpointing players who fit the schemes and mentality he wanted from his team. Not sure I’ve ever seen another coach with a better feel for personnel.

Dick Vermeil deserves a critical look. He’s one of only three coaches (Don Shula, George Halas) to take teams to the playoffs in four different decades. Every team he took over was several years removed from the playoffs (Philadelphia 15; Rams 7; Kansas City 3), and he took all three to the postseason in his third year as head coach. The Rams were tied for the worst record of the 90s before he presided over the 1999 Super Bowl team. The Eagles had one winning season from 1962-1975 (9-5 in 1966) and were 39-81-6 in the nine years previous to his arrival.

He also paced each in different ways. The Eagles led the NFL in points allowed in 1980 (222 — second-best 251) and 1981 (221 — second-best 250), passing yards allowed in 1981 (2,696 — second-best 2,727) and total yards allowed in 1981 (4,447 — second-best was 4,763). He also coached the Bert Bell Player of the Year in 1980 with Ron Jaworski.

The Rams had an all-world offense in 1999, which we all know, but also led the NFL in rushing yards allowed at 1,189 (the vaunted Baltimore Ravens were second at 1,231) and gave up just four rushing touchdowns. The 1999 Rams scored 526 points and allowed 242, an astounding difference of 284 points.

Vermeil’s Chiefs, which were 13-3 in 2003, led the NFL in points scored in 2002 and 2003, and in total yards in 2004 and 2005. His 2003 squad had nine Pro Bowlers and only one, TE Tony Gonzalez, was a first-round pick of the Chiefs. Trent Green and Priest Holmes began their career as undrafted free agents and Dante Hall was a fifth-round pick. Holmes scored 27 touchdowns that year, then a league record.

Vermeil was an incredible motivator and adapted his coaching style as well as his strategy to the era in which he coached. All three of his starting QBs went to Pro Bowls under his tutelage, two of which he acquired via trade (Trent Green, Ron Jaworski) and the other was Kurt Warner (whose story we all know). His overall accomplishments belie his modest final numbers and I believe should net him a Hall of Fame induction.

Your case for Dick Vermeil is well stated. His credentials certainly deserve to be debated. The difficulty part for him is in general coaches and quarterbacks, as Bill Parcells once put it, “are judged by their jewelry.” He has some but does he have enough. I deep look into his record makes a strong argument for him. Hopefully his name will make the room because, as my friend and colleague Rick Gosselin says, “You’re not a candidate until you’re a finalist.” Only then are your credentials debated in front of the full committee.

FIRST: Hispanic starting NFL quarterback
FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach in Professional Football History to win a Super Bowl
FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach in Professional Football History to win two Super Bowls

Consider all the great Coaches past and present:
FIRST: Coach to win a Super Bowl as a Wild-Card Team, all games were road games, he was 1st

FIRST: 1973 to Present he has the highest playoff winning percentage overall other Coaches, he’s Number 1

SECOND: Coaches in the modern era only Vince Lombardi has a higher playoff winning percentage he’s Number 2

THIRD: Coaches in the modern era only Vince Lombardi and Weeb Ewbank (AFL/NFL) have a higher playoff winning percentage he’s Number 3

FIRST: Hispanic starting NFL quarterback
FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach in Professional Football History to win a Super Bowl
FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach in Professional Football History to win two Super Bowls
FIRST: Hispanic and Minority General Manager in Professional Football History
FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Team President in Professional Football History
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Consider all the great Coaches past and present:
FIRST: Coach to win a Super Bowl as a Wild-Card Team, all games were road games, he was 1st
=

FIRST: 1973 to Present he has the highest playoff winning percentage overall other Coaches, he’s Number 1
=

SECOND: Coaches in the modern era only Vince Lombardi has a higher playoff winning percentage he’s Number 2
=

THIRD: Coaches in the modern era only Vince Lombardi and Weeb Ewbank (AFL/NFL) have a higher playoff winning percentage he’s Number 3
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Coach Tom Flores (HALL OF FAME)
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A Sports Writer recently noted:
“Tom Flores: The least known and least appreciated multiple Super Bowl-winning coach.”
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A certain Sports Writer has “always said the Professional Football Hall of Fame is for people that you can’t write the history of the Professional Football without them”
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. . .if true, then let us carefully reconsider Coach Tom Flores in that same category!
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Sent: Fri, Jan 9, 2015 9:37 am
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Professional Football Hall of Fame 2015 – 113 Nominees
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15 Finalists announced
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Only 3 Head Coaches were among the 15
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I have nothing against the 3 they picked as Finalists, Great Coaches and very deserving
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But they left off:
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Thomas Raymond “Tom” Flores
Professional Football Coach and Player – NFL / AFL
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35 Years in Professional Football – Since 1959
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21 Years Sports Analyst/Broadcaster – Since 1994
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28 Years Eligible for Induction into the Professional Football Hall of Fame – Since 1987
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FIRST: Person to have rings as a
Player (Kansas City Chiefs),
Assistant Coach
and
Head Coach (Raiders)
(the only other Player/Coach to equal this is Mike Ditka, they are the only 2 to do this)
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FIRST: Only Person to have rings as a
Player (Kansas City Chiefs, 2 Rings),
Assistant Coach (Raiders, 1 Ring)
and
Head Coach (Raiders, 2 Rings)
(No Player/Coach has accomplished this in the history of the league)
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Won Championships
– Player
– Assistant Coach
– Head Coach
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5 Rings:
– 1 AFL Championship – Player
– 4 Super Bowls:
Super Bowl IV Chiefs – Player
and
Super Bowl XI – Assistant Coach
and
Super Bowls XV – Head Coach
and
Super Bowls XVIII – Head Coach
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FIRST: Hispanic starting NFL Quarterback
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FIRST: Hispanic Professional Football Quarterback to win a Championship
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FIRST: Hispanic Professional Football Quarterback to win a Super Bowl
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Assistant Coach in Professional Football History to win a Super Bowl
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach in Professional Football History to win a Super Bowl
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority and Only Head Coach in Professional Football History to win two Super Bowls
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority and Only General Manager in Professional Football History
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority and Only Team President in Professional Football History
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Consider all the great Coaches past and present:
FIRST: Coach to win a Super Bowl as a Wild-Card Team
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FIRST: Super Bowl Highest winning percentage 1.000 no losses
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FIRST: 1973 to Present Highest Playoff winning percentage overall other Coaches, he’s Number 1
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FIRST: The Professional Football Hall of Fame recognizes him among the first “Hispanic Assistant Coaches”
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FIRST: The Professional Football Hall of Fame recognizes him among the first “Hispanic Head Coaches”
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Assistant Coach of the Oakland Raiders
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach of the Oakland Raiders
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach of the Los Angeles Raiders
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FIRST: Hispanic and Minority Head Coach of the Seattle Seahawks
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SECOND: Coaches in the modern era only Vince Lombardi has a higher playoff winning percentage he’s Number 2
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THIRD: Coaches in the modern era only Vince Lombardi and Weeb Ewbank (AFL/NFL) have a higher playoff winning percentage he’s Number 3
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Out of 473 Pro Football Coaches:
51 have Coached in the Super Bowl
23 have Coached in more than 1 Super Bowl
19 out of the 23 that Coached in more than 1 Super Bowl have won at least 1 Super Bowl
13 out of the 23 that Coached in more than 1 Super Bowl have won at least 2 Super Bowls
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Only 4:
Chuck Noll – Hall of Fame
Bill Belichick
Bill Walsh – Hall of Fame
Joe Gibbs – Hall of Fame
have more Super Bowl wins
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THIRD: Ranked number 3 on the All-Time Head Coach Super Bowl wins list
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SECOND: 83 wins Second-Most in Raider franchise history
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Has more total wins then Hall of Fame Coach Bill Walsh and Hall of Fame Finalist Coach Jimmy Johnson
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Super Bowls XV – Head Coach: His team was the underdog and prevailed against the odds
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Super Bowls XVIII – Head Coach: His team was the underdog and prevailed against the odds
Coaching win over Hall of Fame Coach Joe Gibbs (often described in sports circles as a “genius”) his only Super Bowl defeat
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Coached Raiders 9 seasons won 2 Super Bowls
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Hall of Fame Coach John Madden Coached Raiders 10 seasons won 1 Super Bowl
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Coach Flores was his Assistant Coach and Head Coach for the only 3 Super Bowls in Raider history
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Coach Flores Raiders’ winning percentage .610 Season and .727 Playoffs
Hall of Fame Coach Bill Walsh 49er’s winning percentage .609 Season and .714 Playoffs
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1982 – NFL-AFC: COACH OF THE YEAR
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2003 – MULTI-ETHNIC SPORTS HALL OF FAME
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2007 – CALIFORNIA SPORTS HALL OF FAME
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2011 – ROBERTO CLEMENTE AWARD
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2012 – BAY AREA SPORTS HALL OF FAME
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2012 – NFLPA COLLEGIATE BOWL COACH
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FIRST: Hispanic Pro-Bowl Quarterback
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FIRST: Quarterback in Raider Franchise History
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1 of only 20 players who were in the AFL for its entire ten-year existence
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FIRST & SECOND: Most TD’s thrown in 2 games 11. Tom Brady tied it 2007, Ben Roethlisberger passed it 2014 – 12. Record stood for 51 years.
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FIFTH: Leading Passer All-Time AFL
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Consider all of the odds/obstacles for his success/achievements
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Consider the odds to become a Coach in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to Coach in a Playoff game in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to Coach in a Championship game in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to Coach in a Super Bowl game in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to Coach in 2 Super Bowl games in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to Coach and win a Super Bowl game in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to Coach and win 2 Super Bowl games in Pro Football
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Consider the odds to accomplish all of this as a Head Coach in Pro Football
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… yet he is not in the Professional Football Hall of Fame
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(if any of this is incorrect let me know?
Or any insight why he’s been overlooked because clearly if
“the Professional Football Hall of Fame is for people that you can’t write the history of the Professional Football without them”
then they have repeatedly written it for 28 years without Coach Tom Flores)
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SF
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Sent: Thu, Sep 30, 2010 7:14 pm
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(1976: Coach John Madden won his Super Bowl, retired in 1978 after a 9 – 7 season. Coach Flores was an Assistant to Coach Madden’s Super Bowl win)
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Head Coach Tom Flores 2 Super Bowl Wins –
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1980:
AFC Wild Card Game:
Houston Oilers: 2nd AFC Central
Coach “Bum” Phillips: Hall of Fame Candidate legendary Coach
Earl Campbell: Hall of Fame Running Back
Best Career Season 1980
NFL Rushing Leader
All-Pro selection
Pro Bowl selection
NEA NFL MVP
NFL Offensive Player of the Year
They held Houston to 7 points
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AFC Divisional Game:
Cleveland Browns: 1st AFC Central
Coach Sam Rutigliano: Consecutive UPI NFL 2x Coach of the Year 1980/1979
Brian Sipe: Quarterback
Best Career Season 1980
NFL MVP
PFWA MVP
UPI AFL-AFC Offensive Player of the Year
AFC Leader Touchdown Passes
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AFC Championship Game:
San Diego Charges: 1st AFC West
Coach Don Coryell: 2x Hall of Fame Finalist 2015 & 2010
Coach Joe Gibbs: Offensive Coordinator – Hall of Fame – 3x Super Bowl Champion
Dan Fouts: Quarterback – Hall of Fame
NFL Passing Yard Leader
AFC Leader Touchdown Passes
First team NFL history 3 Receivers over 1,000 receiving yards
John Jefferson: 1st NFL Leader Receiving Yards (1,340)
Kellen Winslow: 2nd NFL Receiving Yards (1,290) – Hall of Fame
Charlie Joiner : 4th NFL Receiving Yards (1,132)
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Super Bowl:
Philadelphia Eages: NFC Champion – 1st NFC East
Coach Dick Vermeil: Hall of Fame Candidate
Sid Gillman: Consultant, listed as QB Coach – Legendary Hall of Fame Coach whose Coaching Tree/Forest has 25 Super Bowl wins and numerous NCAA Championships
Ron Jaworski: Quarterback
Raiders 27 to 10
–
=
=
1983:
AFC Divisional Game
Pittsburgh Steelers: 1st AFC Central
Coach Chuck Noll: Hall of Fame Coach 4x Super Bowl Champion
Tony Dungy: Coaching Staff – Hall of Fame Finalist 2x 2015 and 2014
–
AFC Championship Game:
Seattle Seahawks: 2nd AFC West
Coach Chuck Know: Hall of Fame Candidate
Fresh off of beating Dan Reeves/John Elway and Don Shula/Dan Marino
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Super Bowl:
Washington Redskins: NFC Champion – 1st NFC East – Defending Super Bowl Champions
Coach Joe Gibbs: Hall of Fame – 4 Super Bowls & 3x Super Bowl Champion
Fresh off of beating John Robinson/Eric Dickerson and Bill Walsh/Joe Montana
Washington had highest scoring team, most prolific offense, largest statistical advantages in National Football history!
They held this powerful Washington offense to 9 points!
Raiders 38 to 9
=
=
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I have nothing against the 3 Coaches they picked as Finalists, Great Coaches and very deserving:
Don Coryell
Jimmy Johnson
Tony Dungy
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But they left off Coach Tom Flores
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Important:
Re: Four (4) specific Coaches to consider but with No biases & previous hearsay which could be inaccurate.
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Start each one with a completely clean slate regarding any hearsay
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There are some numbers noted below but please take the total and complete individual person into account take Everything into account leave no stone unturned. For example take into consideration the Era they Coached in, Rule changes, salary cap, free agency to name a few
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Hall of Fame Induction:
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1. Who is most deserving and why and in what order are each most deserving?
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2. Is each one deserving, if not, who is not deserving?
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3. If all or some or one of them are not deserving, could you make an argument for them and if no, why?
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Elaborate as much as you’d like
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Four (4) Coaches listed in order of their eligibility:
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Don Coryell eligible 28 to 29 years – No Super Bowl appearances – Playoff winning pct. .333
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Tom Flores eligible 27 to 28 years – 2 Super Bowl appearances 2 wins – Playoff winning pct. .727
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Jimmy Johnson eligible 16 years – 2 Super Bowl appearances 2 wins – Playoff winning pct. .692
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Tony Dungy eligible for 2 years – 1 Super Bowl appearance 1 win – Playoff winning pct. .474
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Super Bowl Wins:
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Flores 2
Johnson 2
Dungy 1
Coryell 0
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HOF’s:
Landry 2
Parcells 2
Shula 2
Ewbank 1
Stram 1
Madden 1
Allen 0
Grant 0
Levy 0
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Playoffs Winning Percentage:
Flores .727
Johnson .692
Dungy .474
Coryell .333
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Team Best Reg. Season Percentage:
Dungy .759
Flores .610
Coryell .607
Johnson .563
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Team Best Reg. Season Wins:
Dungy 85
Flores 83
Coryell 69
Johnson 44
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Team Best Total Wins:
Dungy 92
Flores 91
Coryell 72
Johnson 51
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Team Best Season Games over .500
Dungy 58
Flores 30
Coryell 13
Johnson 8
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(if any of this is incorrect let me know?
Or any insight why he’s been overlooked? Thank you)
SF

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