[quote author=“rogerflat”]I guess my point is that you can’t be “born gay” just like you can’t be “born to breed outside your own race.” You choose to do that yourself. Sexual prefernce, whether it is a choice in skin color or body parts, is a CHOICE.

WRONG. I am living evidence. You think everybody is born straight, and that gays then convert? Are you really that misinformed?

Again, why would anybody choose this option, given that attitudes like yours are in such abundance?

I want you to answer these two questions:

1) Why do you think a person can be born straight but not gay?
2) Why do you think someone would “chooose” to be gay?

Go ahead, I’m waiting.

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll

1) Why do you think a person can be born straight but not gay?
2) Why do you think someone would “chooose” to be gay?

1. Being straight is the natural state of being for humans. Being gay is not.
2. It can be as much a choice to be gay as it is a choice for a herroin addict to keep using, which is to say, not a choice but a compulsion. I don’t think most gay people can up and choose to be straight, not this late in the game anyhow. What I was originally saying is that people are essentially “made” to be gay, “forged” if you will. A sword is born as a chunk of metal, it is then forged into a sword.

Show me a “gay gene” then I’ll put credence into the “born gay” thing.

And that you’re “not impressed” with flambuoyant behavior….who the hell is out to impress you? I have more than a few straight male friends who are somewhat effeminate. Would they “not impress” you? I’m more masculine then them. Would you not want to hang around me anyway? Think about what you say, the choices you make, and really examine why you feel the way you do. Because all your arguments amount to squat so far. So I’m guessing it’s extremely personal.

That’s what I alluded to earlier.

If he’s talking about truly ill-mannered or abusive behavior that we wouldn’t tolerate from heterosexuals, that’s one thing but I suspect that’s not what he’s referring to.

I’ve noticed that strongly homophobic people seem have an extreme case of rape anxiety, sometimes demonstrating it without any kind of provocation. Does anyone remember last year how one preacher (I forget which) said he’d kill any gay man who made an advance on him? I remember seeing it and thinking how he has nothing to worry about.

The insult of saying people who don’t like or approve of homosexuality are gay or bi themselves is daft. Dont’ do it. It just perpetuates the ill will and misunderstandings between gay tolerant people and non.

The bottom line is I reserve the right to not want to be around people for any reason, whether it be they are black, gay, or too tall with too many peircings. It doesn’t mean I discriminate against them or harbor ill will. I just choose to not associate with them.

[quote author=“rogerflat”]1. Being straight is the natural state of being for humans. Being gay is not.

You cannot go against nature
Because when you do
Go against nature
It’s part of nature too

- Love And Rockets, “No New Tale To Tell”

What is your definition of “natural state of being for humans”? Be very careful in your definition because if I find ANY example besides homosexuality that fits your definition then you are required to blow the horn of prejudice against this, too.

You can’t accept my challenge because you will risk exposing you arguments for having a basis solely in bigotry.

What is your definition of “natural state of being for humans”? Be very careful in your definition because if I find ANY example besides homosexuality that fits your definition then you are required to blow the horn of prejudice against this, too.

Natural state of being for humans: living in way which correlates to ones inate biological and anatomical functions.

In some ways a think that flambouyant homosexuality is a form of catharsis for gays who have traumatic experiences associated with, or attributing to, their own homosexuality.

For instance, its almost as if they are drawing attention to themselves just to demonstrate how “out of the closet” they are, as if anyone really cares. Maybe they want it to be an affront to conservatives, sort of an in your face move to the people they know dislike them.

Reminds me of the gangsta thug image that a lot of people, particularly blacks, are portraying nowadays. I think it harkens back to the slavery thing where now they can be so different than the average white person who is no doubt taken aback by the strange clothing and language they display, but cannot do anything about it. Its like they want to be different, not just for the sake of being different, but so others know they are. I think it empowers them to a degree to know they are able to do that.

There’s definitely some pyschological underpinnings involved in all of this.

Agreed. There is no other way to describe an irrational, unreasoning prejudice and discrimination toward people who are different.

Sarcasm is my second language so I’m like right there with you on that comment.

But my position is not one of predjudice or discrimination. All I’m saying is that I’m personally not 0 in love with the idea of hanging out with gay people. And in addition, I also understand how family members could feel ashamed or upset about a relatives sexuality.

1) Why do you think a person can be born straight but not gay?
2) Why do you think someone would “chooose” to be gay?

1. Being straight is the natural state of being for humans. Being gay is not.

Your confusing the word “natural” with “normative”. A larger percent of the population is heterosexual. This does not mean that homosexuals are unnatural. So, wrong. Imagine someone trying to convince you that you didn’t come into the world straight, that you were born gay. Just stop reading this for a minute, sit back, and really imagine a person who’s convinced that you were born gay and then chose to become straight, and there’s nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. That’s how absurd your idea sounds to me, absolutely moronic.

2. It can be as much a choice to be gay as it is a choice for a herroin addict to keep using, which is to say, not a choice but a compulsion. I don’t think most gay people can up and choose to be straight, not this late in the game anyhow. What I was originally saying is that people are essentially “made” to be gay, “forged” if you will. A sword is born as a chunk of metal, it is then forged into a sword.

Wrong again. Sexual orientation is not a compulsion. It’s a phenomenon of biology. So, older gay people can’t “up and choose to be straight” but they could have when they were children? Explain, please. Your whole “forged” concept sounds like some weird hard-core rationalization.

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll

[quote author=“rogerflat”]But my position is not one of predjudice or discrimination. All I’m saying is that I’m personally not 0 in love with the idea of hanging out with gay people. And in addition, I also understand how family members could feel ashamed or upset about a relatives sexuality.

Yeah, Roger, your position is definitely one of prejudice. You don’t have to hang around with people that you don’t want to, but, to paraphrase Sam: “Either you have good reasons for disliking people, or you don’t.” At least cop to the fact that you have this aversion to gay people that you can’t explain. But it’s there.

You empathize with feelings of shame around someone else’s sexuality - that’s interesting. I’m not saying you’re gay or bi, Roger, but you ought to have a long look in the proverbial mirror. Something here is definitely all about Roger and nobody else.

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Wrong again. Sexual orientation is not a compulsion. It’s a phenomenon of biology. So, older gay people can’t “up and choose to be straight” but they could have when they were children? Explain, please. Your whole “forged” concept sounds like some weird hard-core rationalization.

Not saying its a choice really. It’s something you are made into. My example was its like a drug addict who can’t help but use drugs. Technically he chooses to use drugs, but he has an addiction—a physical compulsion which he cannot ignore. The same is true for sexuality.

Straight people will naturally be straight. That opposite sex attraction is hardwired into all humans. But wires get crossed with molestation, sexual pervesion, and exposure to certain things which lead someone down that path.

One thing that is strange about homosexuality is the reasons why people become gay, or at least the underlying factors. Molestation as children is certainly number one on that list, but I know people who are so ungodly unattractive that I truly believe they became gay in an attempt to fornicate with anyone who would let them.

Granted, the reasons differ among people, but there is always a reason. Even if there is something that causes people to be predisposed to it from birth, they are a minority.

[quote author=“rogerflat”]
Not saying its a choice really. It’s something you are made into. My example was its like a drug addict who can’t help but use drugs. Technically he chooses to use drugs, but he has an addiction—a physical compulsion which he cannot ignore. The same is true for sexuality.

And so you’re talking about lust, the physical compulsion, which is a sexual trait of both straights and gays. I become pretty repulsed when I think of having sex with women, Roger, but I don’t tell you that you’re “addicted”. What you don’t address are the romantic, poetic, nesting, intellectual and other emotional non-lust desires that gay people have toward each other. Is that also part of the addiction theory?

Straight people will naturally be straight. That opposite sex attraction is hardwired into all humans. But wires get crossed with molestation, sexual pervesion, and exposure to certain things which lead someone down that path. I’m beginning to think that you’re the one who was molested. It seems you really cling to that.

That opposite sex attraction is not hardwired into me. Never had it, never will. Never been even .000000001% attracted to women (no offense to women). And do I have to remind you again - I was never molested nor sexuallyl traumatized in any way as a child. No type of event such as you describe. Gay thoughts as young as 3, blah blah blah, I repeat and repeat this reality, and you deny it can be true.

One thing that is strange about homosexuality is the reasons why people become gay, or at least the underlying factors. Molestation as children is certainly number one on that list, but I know people who are so ungodly unattractive that I truly believe they became gay in an attempt to fornicate with anyone who would let them.

And we covered the correlation/causality discrepancy between moleestation and homosexuality earlier. Not going to repeat myself. And the 2nd part doesn’t merit a response; you’re really batting 1000, aren’t you?

Granted, the reasons differ among people, but there is always a reason. Even if there is something that causes people to be predisposed to it from birth, they are a minority.

Well, Roger, it’s been nice. You’re still at zero. You are privy to so much information. What would I do without your diagnosis? I know! I must see if there are repressed memories. Surely I was molested or who I am would make no sense.

You don’t listen, Roger, and you are quite stupid on this topic. For a man who may pride himself on rational thinking as an atheist, you are a sore disappointment to me as a human being.

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
— Robert G. Ingersoll