ResourceUbers Old Gens Hub (See post 95)

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It's treason then. AAAARRRGGHHHH

Welcome to the Ubers Old Gens Hub. This thread contains resources for the older generations of Ubers (Generations 3-6). Each post will contain the respective Viability Rankings, a selection of sample teams to get started with, and a helpful list of mechanics for the non SM generations. This thread will remain open to accept sample teams, potential changes in viability rankings, and general discussion of old gen Ubers. This post will contain the resources for generation 6 (XY + ORAS).

Dialga always seems to find a valuable role in Uber metagames. The shuca berry set used provides the otherwise frail team with a strong Stealth Rock user and a great offensive check to Salamence. Dialga's issues with Darkrai is being solved by the use of RestTalk Geomancy Xerneas, which similarly benefits from Dialga's ability to set Stealth Rock against the troublesome Ho-oh balances with ease. The teams primarily stallbreakers, Primal Groudon and Deoxys-A complement each other with the former providing the latter an easy switch-in to Klefki, among other things. Arceus-Normal and Salamence provide the team with great offensive checks to the majority of the tier, as well as complementing each other by putting pressure on physically defensive Pokémon.

Prone to matchup issues + hax, but is good for getting started on the ladder and ending games quickly. Double Dance Primal Groudon is the Xerneas check and helps break physical walls so Dragon Dance Mega Salamence or Extreme Killer can clean up later. Geomancy Xerneas provides an alternate win condition while Darkrai helps with Ghosts, Latis, and Calm Mind Arceus formes.

Trademark of the Choice Band Ho-oh+Klefki balance archetype. Deploys Arceus-Water in order to gain a stronger match up against Ho-oh, Primal Groudon and Salamence but an Arceus-Normal is a feasible choice as it provides stronger match ups vs Ho-oh-less balances in general. Spread status and clean with Mega Gengar.

This is an offensive team with Rayquaza as the main wall breaker and Cloyster as it's lead. It's pretty straightforward. Cloyster is a solid lead that can set Toxic Spikes, can pressure stuff with Shell Smash + Icicle Spear and also has access to Rapid Spin, which makes it very useful against other leads. Primal Groudon is the team's Stealth Rock user and also checks Xerneas, Primal Kyogre and Steel types. Rayquaza is the team's main wall breaker. With Choice Band as it's item, Rayquaza hits ridiculously hard, making it very hard for most teams to deal with it. Scarf Xerneas helps against threats like Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, lati@s etc which are pretty threatening to the team, otherwise. Mega Gengar is a solid mega evolution that can take out key threats thanks to Shadow Tag. Lastly, Arceus is there to revenge kill weakened stuff and acts as a late game sweeper.

Built in 2013 when Kebabe modified Hack's RMT Droughtfest, this team has shown great progress against a wide variety of opponents. Instead of hinging on a very thin thread of having to prevent Stealth Rock at all cost to support Ho-oh, the team centers around accomplishing an Arceus-Normal sweep, something it has shown to do very consistently. The fact that it has the flexibility in the hazard game due to Cloyster's abilities to set spikes, spin or luring in and weakening Ekiller-checks such as Arceus-Ghost makes the game plan much more hyper offensively oriented than the typical "magic sun" teams seen at the time. Ho-oh is of course a beast when Stealth Rock isn't up, but one has to understand that the main goal of the team is ultimately an Ekiller sweep.

This sand balance revolves around having relatively sound checks to just about anything in the BW2 Ubers meta. It has a solid match up versus just about anything, and that is its biggest selling point. Sand is greatly disruptive for the more prevalent sun and rain-based teams, and Tyranitar in itself is a fully functioning check to threats like Arceus-Ghost and Latios / Latias. Mixed Rayquaza is something to note in particular on this team. It greatly helps the team's defensive and offensive synergy by checking dangerous weather sweepers while at the same time breaking walls for the team's cleaner, Excadrill. Latias + Genesect + Arceus-Fighting is likely the most solid combination in BW2 Ubers for a balanced team, and forms a solid backbone to check a multitude of big threats. Arceus-Fighting's set is largely contributing to the team's good match up vs sun.

This team is based on a build by the legendary Pi Face. As that team has a Palkia, and thus no ground immunity, Hack did some remastering. It is a good example of how a team can resemble stall while still be efficient in the offensive BW2 metagame. Three steels might seem over the top but Excadrill and Ferrothorn have noteworthy synergy due to their secondary types. Surf Arceus-Ghost stands out as an odd set. It was first proposed by Donkey, who found it to be a good anti-spinning tool that happened to hit a lot of threats to bulkier teams quite hard. Genesect is there because it is simply too good to not use, even for a bulky team.

Problems made this team for a MUTE game back in 2013 but utilized a lead Garchomp as opposed to Tyranitar. While this guarantees outspeeding Palkia, all Dialga and efficient anti leading of Deoxys-A, Garchomp's lackluster match up against the common Deoxys-S holds it back. Of course, it one is a willing to sacrifice the effeciency vs this lead in particular, Garchomp can replace Tyranitar. This team plays almost entirely off of getting hazards up quicker and in larger quantity than the opponent. This makes handling the team's phazers and Arceus-Fighting incredibly hard.

Togekiss has pretty good special bulk and Paraflinch is annoying af. Normal/Flying might not look like much but it is a really good typing to deal with Ghostceus. With Thunder Wave and Subs Ghostceus has a really hard time getting past Togekiss unless it uses Thunder or something. Even without checking Ghostceus, Togekiss is not bad on its own. Its SpD is pretty good so you should be Thunder Wave a few things anyway.

Mew reliably gets up Stealth Rock versus most leads. U-turn allows It to switch out versus Taunter Pokemon like Deoxys and break their Focus Sash at the same time, while Fireblast prevents Forretress from totally blocking Mew. Jirachi builds momentum with slow U-turns into Latios and Mewtwo, 2 very dangerous Pokemon that works well with each others and with Jirachi. Dialga is a really good pokemon and really splashable. Finally, Rayquaza is used for his good priority and strong offensive presence.

This is a simple but very dangerous offensive team. The bulky Dialga gets up rocks against the faster dudes taking out Cloyster (after it's gotten both Spikes down, which it's very good at) for a fearsome one-two hazard punch. Palkia is often checked by being choiced, so a lot of teams are up the creek without a paddle when it switches moves. Any non-Scarf Palkia set works here, I just like Lustrous for brutally strong Hydro Pumps fueled by its partner in crime, Scarf Kyogre, who gets tons of free switchins off U-turns from CBzor. Haban can definitely work on Palk for the extra Lati@s lure to secure that endgame ScarfOgre sweep. Thunder isn't very common on G-O but it smashes Kyogre, Lugia and Ho-Oh.

Ho-Oh makes for an interesting lead. I don't think it's a great Pokemon in general just because of how hard it is to spin in DPP, but making it a lead means you don't really have to worry about Stealth Rock. It's kind of like Specs Zapdos in OU. I opted for a non-choice set because I didn't want to be forced out by something stupid like an early game Heatran or something. Lum Berry means it destroys the very popular Scarf Darkrai lead. You can even one shot some Deoxys leads through Sash thanks to that nifty burn chance! Rest of the team is pretty standard, I guess.

This team utilizes a very underused pokemon in Gyarados. I wanted to pair it with Spikes to aid it in breaking teams much easier, which is usually the case for most sweepers. To accomplish this, I went with Deoxys-S for this role, one of the best leads in the game. Deoxys is able to set spikes in the first turns while being very efficient versus other leads. I then added Giratina to be a spinblocker, choosing the altered variant over the origin due to its ability to attract many of the things gyarados uses as set up fodder: steel types such as forretress, heatran, etc. It is also a formidable wincon. Latios was added to pressure most balances with its 3 Attacks Roost set while being a great kyogre check. Jirachi is the dragon resist of choice, setting up rocks. And lastly, kyogre rounds off the team n the form of speed control with a scarf set and sets rain to boost gyarados's already high sweeping power. Enjoy

Notes:
- Standard set with best overall versatility
- Achieves excellent coverage with BoltBeam or Dragon Claw + Thunder(bolt), good longevity with Recover and can sweep with Calm Mind
- Refresh can be used to fuck over T-wavers
- Can be used as a generic lead

Notes:
- Maximum coverage while losing CM and Recover
- Best used as a lead and mid-game attacker - Solarbeam is Latios's attack vs Groudon
- Solarbeam does fail to OHKO most properly EVed lead Groudons - is there any point to this set then?

Notes:
- Refresh defeats Seismic Toss + Toxic Blissey, while Substitute has a very good chance of defeating Calm Mind Blissey (or you can throw 20 SpD EVs and a Calm nature to totally defeat CM Blissey so that its Ice Beam never break your Subs) - Spread would be 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpD Calm
- Max HP / max Def+ would give you an emergency check vs SubSalac Donner, since you can live a +2 HP Ghost at full and finish off the Donner, which is also important, so pick your set and EV spread wisely
- Note about SubCM - while odds are on Latias' side vs CM Blissey, there can very well be a chance that you don't crit any of your Dragon Claws so you'd be forced to PP stall Blissey to beat (obviously you won't be able to do anything else after)

Notes:
- Cripples most of its switch-ins with Thunder Wave, especially Lati@s, allowing to defeat them long-term
- If using CM: Generally T-Wave the Lati@s switch-in, switch out, come back later on a safe switch, CM up and win (you 2HKO Latios regardless, while Latias MAY be able to keep up in a CM war for while until it gets full paralysed)
- If using Thunder: you still have a good chance of 2HKOing Latios on the switch or with a full para without hitting it on the switch-in, but Latias is a bit harder to take down
- 2 ways to EV - fully defensive so Kyogre is a decent check pretty much anything outside of Lati@s or Magneton/Raikou/Zapdos, while max SpA lets you muscle past Blissey that don't invest in max SpD after a boost (and kill more things)

Notes:
- Best coverage + CM
- Loses to all the standard Kyogre checks/counters apart from Kyogre itself but damn that coverage is good (also does a lot more to stuff like Ludicolo)
- Lum Berry lets you blast through Blissey

Notes:
- Same moveset as SubCM, but serves a different purpose
- 252 HP lets you may 101 HP Subs, which lets you set up more CMs to muscle past Blissey - you 2HKO with Hydro Pump at +2/+2 or with Surf at +3/+3/+1.
- More of a late game cleaner - can Sub up, CM as Lati@s breaks Sub, Ice Beam as they Thunder and fail to kill and let you activate Salac, and then kill the Lati@s, then go on to sweep with +1/+1/+1 Kyogre.
- EVs let you activate Salac at 25%, as well as outspeeding neutral base 130s and Raikou at +1.

Notes:
- Probably one of the more dangerous sweepers
- Either Sub down to 25% then SD as they break your last Sub or SD up and Sub down on slower mons
- 104 Spe lets you outspeed neutral base 130s (96 does it too, but you need HP divisible by 4, so you may as well leave the rest in Spe) as well as Raikou at +1
- HP Ghost is best in general since Latis are more important threats, but Rock Slide is better coverage in general while hitting Ho-oh/Ray
- Need to be more careful switching this into things since it hasn't got as much bulk invested.

Notes:
- More reliable as an SD than SubSalac, allowing to play both support and attacker
- Strong physical tank that does well spreading paralysis
- Rock Slide is best all-round coverage, HP Ghost gets Latis and Double Edge hits everything, including Flygon!
- Fire Blast can hit Skarm if you're into that

Notes:
- Good to lead with so you can get sun up, and T-Wave any Lati@s leads that you see (you can survive anything they use)
- Can use as a physically defensive Pokemon if you so desire but then don't lead with it
- Toxic is good with Flamethrower because nothing that is immune to Toxic like EQ and Flamethrower

Notes:
- Strong attacker, but needs good prediction
- HP Bug is best since you can hit everything you need with HP Ghost with Rock Slide already, apart from Lati@s, which you still hit with HP Bug. HP Bug then gets Grass-types, which is good
- Double Edge is best last move since it hits most things really hard, and apart from Skarm, nothing that can switch into Double Edge can take EQ.
- Overheat wrecks Skarm
- Toxic lures in shit like Lugia and laughs at it

Notes:
- Best offensive special tank in the metagame
- Body Slam is preferred because of awesome paralysis chance, and ADV games are long enough that it's probably going to count
- Return is perfectly fine if you want to hit hard too
- Boom kills almost everything except like Skarm and Gengar and Steelix
- Choice Band vs Leftovers depending on your team - if your team is a bit slower, pick Leftovers for the longevity, if you're more offensively based or have a decent secondary Lati check, use CB

Notes:
- Kind of compresses the mono-Attacking Curselax with standard tank set
- Protect lets you get Leftovers recovery and scouts shit like CB Metagross (and protect yourself from exploding mons)
- Immunity is used to prevent Toxic from wearing you down
- Shadow Ball lets you hit Gengar so you're not totally walled

Checks/counters:
- Same as others

Deoxys-A

Roles:
- Strong and fast af
- Best cleaner ever
- Checks: Lati@s (revenge kill with CB), otherwise not very much at all

Notes:
- Spread is self-explanatory, except 30 HP IVs are used so that Petaya activates on the 3rd Substitute
- The Spread also wants a SpA+ Nature because it gives the best chance at OHKOing Lati at +1
- Substitute is used to ease prediction when forcing a switch, and is used to activate Petaya
- Superpower breaks several Pokemon that would otherwise wall this set such as Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, and Regice
- Boltbeam is superior coverage, Thunder is used of Thunderbolt as you miss critical damage outputs on Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and some other Pokemon without it

Notes:
- Spread is basically the same as CB, but Spell Tag is used to potentially bluff being locked into a move
- Extreme Speed is for Rayquaza, opposing Deo-A, weather sweepers, and the odd +1 setup Pokemon
- Shadow Ball is for maximum damage against Lati and Mewtwo, and hits Shedinja
- Superpower hits Snorlax, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Regice, Rock-types, and Steel-types
- Double-Edge has maximum damage output against mostly everything else
- Fire Punch can be used to destroy Forretress and hit Skarmory hard

Roles:
- Attacker/cleaner
- Basically Deo-A with slightly less power (and doesn't usually go physical) but isn't anywhere near as easily killed
- Checks: Not much specifically, but you can always have a fast boom on problematic things

Notes:
- Very good lead that pressures pretty much everything
- Defeats Lati@s and Groudon with Ice Beam - you survive everything Lati@s throws at you while you waste Thunder Wave Groudon via Lum Berry
- You lose to Hydro Pump Kyogre leads, as well as the less common CB Ho-oh, Snorlax and Slaking leads. In these circumstances you can switch to your counter or blow up on them.
- You can always bring this Mewtwo back in mid-game to try and blow up on something or even clean late-game, so keep that in mind before blowing up turn 1.

Notes:
- Standard special wall - beats most special attackers in the tier
- Lets you act as a cleric but loses ability to pass Wish
- DOES lose to things like Refresh Lati@s, Rest CM Kyogre and 101 HP SubCM users, so make sure you are aware of those limitations
- Toxic is your main way of damage, and Seismic Toss can be used to break Subs

Notes:
- Attacking Blissey does well enough as it allows you to CM alongside special attackers that might have a way to sidestep Seismic Toss + Toxic (eg SubCM Kyogre, Refresh CM Lati@s)
- Loses to SubCM Lati@s though! Keep that in mind
- BoltBeam is strong coverage

Notes:
- Since Sacred Fire is special in gen 3, you can use a CM set with it
- Boosts your SpD while burning shit, which is nice
- Thunder is specifically for Kyogre
- Shadow Ball is so you're not walled to hell and back by Lati@s

Notes:
- Fun set if you have Spikes up - Toxic everything and just Sub stall them out
- Fire move discourages Steel types from taking Toxic
- Flamethrower is used over Sacred Fire because 1) it messes with Toxic and 2) it has more PP, which you need if you want to stall with Pressure

Notes:
- Standard Magneton that traps most of your Steels
- Only problems might be Metagross or Steelix since you need it weakened first (or you trap a CB variant) - or you can just Thunder/HP Fire it for a shit ton of damage so your Lati@s can clean it later
- Thunder/HP Ice is better for rain teams and in general, but if your team is more Groudon based, use T-bolt and HP Fire.
- Metal Sound lets you take on CM Jirachi - don't be surprised if the piece of shit misses though!

Notes:
- Strong bird
- Aeroblast is a nice strong spammable STAB
- Can lead with this thing since you don't really lose to any of the leads - you'll get T-waved by Groudon, but you'd have done quite a bit of damage already
- Last slot is filler - Ice Beam lets you kill Ray, while if you don't need to check such a shit Pokemon that is Rayquaza. Whirlwind lets you clutch phaze things.

Notes:
- Standard defensive Lugia similar to later gens
- Reflect and Whirlwind stop most physical attackers, while Ice Beam deals damage to most of them (Groudon, shitmon Ray, etc)
- Toxic can go over Reflect if you so desires

This team utilizes Magneton's capabilities to trap Steel types, such Skarmory, Forretress and even Metagross/Steelix with proper timing, to wreak havoc with Choice Band Lugia and mono attacking Latias. These two in particular love the support Magneton provide. Forretress provides spikes to further weaken the opposition. It also appreciates the trapping of other Forretress in particular. The team utilizes Blissey as a check to BoltBeam Lati@s. With Wish, Lugia and Forretress can be recovered and utilize their bulk more liberally. Protect is a really strong move in ADV for a number of mons in general, it prevents prediction vs Deoxys-A and since this team can remove Toxic immunities, Toxic+Protect stalling can easily wear down opponents.

One of the first builds I prepared for UPL IV and the one I used for week 3 was a rain offense built around Substitute + Petaya Deoxys-A, one of the most potent threats in ADV that I felt wasn't fully developed. There aren't a huge number of Pokmeon that confidently check this set, although one that does is Shedinja, which I immediately rectified with a Spikes + Toxic Omastar as rain offenses can tend to struggle against Shedinja to begin with. The choice of Omastar as the Spikes setter was because nothing viable in ADV can afford to spin on it, while Omastar makes a good win condition in itself and alleviates potential weakness to opposing Deoxys-A. Mystic Water was chosen as the held item due to calculations against Pokemon such as Mewtwo and Lugia. This team heavily relies on rain support, so a more defensive Kyogre spread was chosen for longevity with Thunder to help check opposing Kyogre. CB Steelix functions as the Toxic immunity, Electric immunity, primary Normal-type resist, and primary Flying-type resist for the team. Regice was also chosen to offer defensive utility in being the primary Lati check and special sponge. The spread is designed to maximize special bulk without sacrificing the power of Ice Beam or Explosion, the later of which OHKOs standard Latios and nearly KOs Blissey. Overall the build is especially hostile to teams that lack strong counterplay to Thunder use and has several methods to dispose of standardized sun arrangements.

A standard bulky sun team. The sets are very flexible, Ho-oh can be a leftovers variant, Groudon could go with Thunder Wave+Swords Dance set, Blissey could go for Calm Mind etc. The variant provided for utilizes Regirocks massive bulk to switch into flying moves but the last slot can be changed to Deoxys-A or even Kyogre. The team plays off wearing opposing teams down via Toxic, Spikes and attacks from Ho-oh, while keeping itself healthy utilizing Heal Bell support provided by Blissey. Once sufficiently weakened, opposing teams could be cleaned up by Latias

It's treason then. AAAARRRGGHHHH

In order to start discussion and maintain transparency: I did some revamping of the BW2 ranks to what I perceive to be a more correct state of the meta. To note is that BW2 Ubers has a lot of amazing mons, but the A-ranks started to get a bit crowded. In general, a lot of mons have been moved down, not necessarily because these are worse than before, but rather because the term viability incorporates opportunity cost. I also ordered mons differently, these aren't included in the change log below. Yes, they should be in order of descending viability within the ranks as well now, but take it with a grain of salt. Anyway, the change log is as follows:

Arceus-Fighting A to A+
Best support Arceus. Blankets a lot of offense mons and is hard to exploit through offensive measures. Has more trouble with stall, which is a rarer playstyle in the tier. Still, no mon has as good of a match-up against so many (Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Normal, Darkrai, Dialga, Genesect to name a few).

Latias A+ to A
Latios, Latias and Palkia are almost always exclusive team choices, and they are almost equally as viable. I put Latios a tad higher than Latias and Palkia, because it is actually insanely hard to switch into and never dies. Consequently Latias had to drop a rank.

Ho-Oh A to A-
Ho-oh is devastating but it is restricted to having demand for a lot of support. When it works it truly shreds everything but the viability ranks reflect splashability as well.

Rayquaza A to A-
Great wallbreaker and weather sweeper check but as with Ho-oh, it isn't as easy to slap onto a team, as say, Latias. Which is why it is a subrank lower.

Arceus-Grass A- to B+
Arceus-Grass is great, honestly, but being the 5th best Arceus comes with the opportunity cost argument.

Skarmory A to B+
Top spiker in the tier, and that is saying a lot. Ranking it in A is too high, there are many spikers to choose from depending on the team, so it is less viable in that sense.Tentacruel B to B+
Ferrocruel has seen a resurgence in past years and it is not that hard to see why. Toxic Spikes are insanely good in the tier and both Ghostceus and rest-less Giratina-O have issues dealing with this spinner.

Froslass B- to B+
I used to think this mon was trash but people can change. Froslass anti leads Deo-S/Deo-A and can taunt+spinblock the hazard+spin mons like Exca/Tenta/Forretress. What other mon can do that? Darkrai weakness is a thing but cmon, Kyogre's best set is sleep talking and it is kinda like the best mon in the tier too so that is easily covered.

Arceus-Water B to B+
Another good support Arceus. Sun support set deters spiking via Fire Blast, checks Rayquaza (separating it from Arceus-Grass), and handles Arceus-Ghost via Toxic and massive special bulk. Sand support set handles Palkia and swimmers. It is a tad passive but it is mitigated via spikes.

Omastar A- to B
Kabutops, being able to outspeed Scarf Genesect in rain, not being walled by Ferrothorn, and providing Rapid Spin support, almost always outclasses this.

Jirachi B+ to B
Decent Latios/Mewtwo check in rain. But the latter isn't very good and it is major spikes bait. Still kinda cool.

Mewtwo A to B
I'm not a fan of M2. You can take the debate with me once you show me a good team with it.

Terrakion B+ to B
A tad exploitable when it comes to locking moves as a scarfer, but it has good revenge killing targets. It used to be good on ladder back when Arceus-Normal was used on literally every offense.

Landorus-T B+ to B
Kinda weird mon. Doesn't check so much but it is a Dialga killer for rain I guess. Moving it down is just an effect of above ranks being a bit crowded.

Arceus-Rock B+ to B
Constantly overrated.

Arceus-Ground A- to B
Interesting mon but an SD Arc revenged by Genesect? A CM Arceus that sucks vs sdef Kyogre? Feels like it belongs somewhere around here more than up in A territory.

Espeon C+ to B-
It is Espeon and it has won tournament games for half a decade. Get over it.

Hippowdon B to B-
Niche sand setter, not bad by any means but its usual issues with low speed and passivity shines through the more spikes centered a meta becomes. And BW2 is hella spikes centered.

Blaziken B to B-
Decent fast-and-frail option but it usually ends up killing something and dying to recoil.

Tornadus-T B to B-
Superb offensive presence but it just doesn't check any notable offensive threat.

Kingdra B to B-
Its biggest niche outside of killing stuff is that it is faster than Kabutops. Decent option but walled by way too many defensive rain options.

Ludicolo C to B-
Subseed is hella good. Scald burns Ferrothorn and you are ready to roll. Honestly it blankets Kyogre, Palkia, Arceus-Ghost and other special attackers surprisingly well.

Wobbuffet C+ to B-
Shadow Tag is still Shadow Tag and there are plenty of choice users to trap in this tier.

Kyurem-W B to B-
Moves down due to crowding. Fitting on a team is hard.

Reshiram C to C+
Blue Flare is still a nuke so I think it is fair to move this up a notch. Scarf cleans pretty well.

Arceus-Psychic B- to C+
Usually there are better options to choose from. It does check Rayquaza but has horrendous downsides in the Ghostceus/Darkrai match ups.

Tornadus B- to C+
Tailwind+Specs Ogre is cute but it is not the end of the world for most teams.

Chansey B- to C
Nice mon if you want to get spiked upon.

Blissey C+ to C
See Chansey. Although this can run Fire Blast on sun to mitigate this issue.

Scizor C+ to C
Almost never seen but the Occa lead can probably still kill a Deoxys or something.

Heracross: removed
Vestige from DPP.

Keldeo: removed
No one has used this.

Gyarados: removed
Trickroom was a great player but this mon isn't viable.

Hydreigon: removed
Vestige from early BW1 hype, or so I've heard. I think the reasoning was that it was a special scarfer that Wobbufett couldn't Mirror Coat. Well, you get the point.

Ditto: removed
I can just use good scarfers in this tier.

Metagross: removed
What

Feel free to criticize and question these changes, it up for debate entirely.

Discussion on anything surrounding old ubers gens is encouraged! Provide sets, teams that could be made teams, discussion on viability etc.

Consider that we probably need:
- More viability discussion, especially in DPP and ADV
- More sample teams, especially in DPP and ADV
- More resources in ADV (the smogon analyses are to put it mildly, garbage)

Banned deucer.

I'll take a look at viability rankings for adv soon. As far as the bw rankings I agree with mostly everything for what rank they are in. I didn't look closely but biggest chances would just be moving around mons in the same rank so not a big deal. As far as adv squads I got a few in mind but one that I strongly think should be added is just a standard sun team but theres like 4-5 versions of it. Basically the team is groudon/bliss/forre/latias/hooh/blank.... I know zf likes deo a while ms likes ogre and Ive used other things like a regirock. The sets also change within each team and idk since its very secure it can be flexible. Like ms likes cm blissey on his allowing his latias to be mono refresh. On zf's team you got the regular healbell bliss and boltbeam latias. The team can run defensive hooh or band. Having deo a makes it so you can revenge kill so many things which is solid but the team has less defensive synergy and lacks crucial things like a flying resist. Ms might not have a flying resist but def ogre blanket checks like everything. I've experimented with running different variations like snorlax over bliss and the team always seems to work out lol anyways what I'm getting at is I have no clue whats the best version so idk which one should be added : (

crackling abuser

You could add that generations 1 through 4 had 85% accurate Toxic instead of it being 90% like it is in generations 5 through 7. Other than that, here are some generation 4 mechanics that you may want to include:
- Taunt lasts two to four turns
(You included a Taunt bullet in for generation 3, so I figured "why not here also?")
- "Magic Coat does not reflect entry hazards", Taunt, or Torment
Taunt and Torment are strange to the point where they don't trigger Magic Coat even though the moves apply a pseudo status to their target. These two moves show themselves from time to time, so I figured if you're going to include entry hazards not triggering Magic Coat, you might as well include Taunt and Torment. If you need more reason for Torment, I have seen Torment Skarmory from Iris before and I am sure it will be used again at some point.

Ttar is one of the best rock setters in both the lead role and with lefties in the back. Serves as an emergency check to rain, special sponge and can be used with a choice item and pursuit to remove latis.

Forretress: A to B+

Has an extremely hard time spinning but is still useful for forcing in the tina and getting layers up. Outclassed by the other A rank mons.

Blissey: A to A-

Useful on stall but usually setup/spike fodder.

Skarmory: B+ to A-

Great dragon sponge and the best spike setter bar deoxys-s. Able to check a lot of the top threats in the metagame given the correct conditions: checks hp fire latis in rain and thunder latis (to an extent) in sun.

Bronzong: B to A-

Excellent SR setter and momentum machine, you can run almost anything in the other 3 slots, endure, earthquake, gyro ball, explosion, payback, toxic, protect, grass knot, hypnosis, trick room, screens, trick. One of the most splashable mons on any team.

Scizor: A to A-

Scizor isn’t what it once was. The band set is far too frail and a gamble every time it comes in on a dragon, since everything gets fire coverage. However the swords dance, choice scarf and lead sets all have their niches and banded scizor puts in huge work on rain teams.

Kabutops: C+ to A-

Hands down the best weather (speed) abuser, there is not much reason to use any other swift swim mon over this.

Lugia: B+ to A-

The physdef reflect set imo is not great anymore since swords dance/dragon dance ray/groudon are not seen as often anymore. However subcm, two attacks cm and sub pressure stall are all incredibly annoying to deal with.

Deoxys: B- to C

No real reason to use this.

Quagsire: C- to B-

Pretty standard on stall, encore is broken as fuck in this gen.

Metagross: B- to C+

Haven’t had much success with this mon, but I can see it as a decent lead or pursuit trapper. Definitely doesn’t deserve B rank tho.

Tentacruel: C+ to B

Best tspikes setter.

Qwilfish: C+ to C-

Intimidate is cool but I would never use this over tentacruel since it has a worse matchup versus most leads.

Salamence:C+ to C

It can work as a scarf mon but imo has less of a niche than the other C+s, for example heracross gets to have guts sleep talk for darkrai, and froslass and cloyster each have good antilead tools.

Abomasnow:C to C+

This thing is a cooler version of ludicolo. Leech seed + hail + protect + ice shard means that anything that kyogre switches to is going to take around 40 if it wants to kill Abomasnow. Also ice type priority never hurts.

Cresselia: C to C+

I use this occasionally if I have a big groudon weakness or want a different cm user. Can also function as a trick room/gravity (lol) setter. Overall much better than celebi, omastar, jumpluff etc.

Gengar: C to C-

Froslass without spikes. You can maybe cheese some stuff with dbond/and coverage.

Deoxys-D: C to C-

No reason to use this.

Victreebel: D to B-/C+

Best sun sweeper IMO, hits way harder than shiftry, hits the benchmark of scarf 100s, puts its checks to sleep 75% of the time, and has almost perfect coverage with solarbeam/weatherball/sucker punch for lati@s/giratinas. I might be biased since I’ve been having a lot of fun with this, which is why I have slashed C+.

Ban Celesteela

You could add that generations 1 through 5 had 85% accurate Toxic instead of it being 90% like it is in generation 6 and 7. Other than that, here are some generation 4 mechanics that you may want to include:
- Taunt lasts two to four turns
(You included a Taunt bullet in for generation 3, so I figured "why not here also?")
- "Magic Coat does not reflect entry hazards", Taunt, or Torment
Taunt and Torment are strange to the point where they don't trigger Magic Coat even though the moves apply a pseudo status to their target. These two moves show themselves from time to time, so I figured if you're going to include entry hazards not triggering Magic Coat, you might as well include Taunt and Torment. If you need more reason for Torment, I have seen Torment Skarmory from Iris before and I am sure it will be used again at some point.

The Parental Bond nerf should be named for gen6. Mega Kang was a lot stronger in gen6, the 2nd hit did 50% of the first hit. While now its only 25%.
Also i have some adv teams. Should i post them just here or send you them first and you accept or reject them Hack ?

I'll take a look at viability rankings for adv soon. As far as the bw rankings I agree with mostly everything for what rank they are in. I didn't look closely but biggest chances would just be moving around mons in the same rank so not a big deal. As far as adv squads I got a few in mind but one that I strongly think should be added is just a standard sun team but theres like 4-5 versions of it. Basically the team is groudon/bliss/forre/latias/hooh/blank.... I know zf likes deo a while ms likes ogre and Ive used other things like a regirock. The sets also change within each team and idk since its very secure it can be flexible. Like ms likes cm blissey on his allowing his latias to be mono refresh. On zf's team you got the regular healbell bliss and boltbeam latias. The team can run defensive hooh or band. Having deo a makes it so you can revenge kill so many things which is solid but the team has less defensive synergy and lacks crucial things like a flying resist. Ms might not have a flying resist but def ogre blanket checks like everything. I've experimented with running different variations like snorlax over bliss and the team always seems to work out lol anyways what I'm getting at is I have no clue whats the best version so idk which one should be added : (

The Parental Bond nerf should be named for gen6. Mega Kang was a lot stronger in gen6, the 2nd hit did 50% of the first hit. While now its only 25%.
Also i have some adv teams. Should i post them just here or send you them first and you accept or reject them Hack ?

After reading through the bw vr I think that 3 changes could be made :

I think when you talk about the current ubers metagame 2 pokemon kinda stand on top and more or less define roles and influence how battles go: roar ogre and cm arc ghost. Both of these mons can pivot around and tank hits as they need, as well as force switches. They win favorable 1v1 duels or force out pokemon to get back the momentum for you. Dialga fits this role quite well (its kinda the bulkier more balanced counterpart to gene in this aspect) and I think that allows it S rank. On top of that it provides a lot of other utility to teams in the form of being the best SR setter in the tier, it can use the most broken move in the game, roar, and it can run tons of offensive sets like LO or scarf to punish various teams. Also this mon is really good vs bulkier teams because it is immune to toxic, resists sr, can phaze, and has pretty decent coverage with fireblast or thunder + a great neutral dmeteor.

I think most people know what dialga does and how good it is so im really just introducing the idea for more discussion here.

I think this is a really nice almost anti meta mon and maybe the second best arc form. I agree with the logic about fightceus and honestly I dont really use it that much so its kinda up in the air so I think there is a bit of wiggle room for arc steel.

Basically it its a great switchin to almost anything in the meta, letting u pivot around and get up momentum, as well as possibly go for a sweep. It has a pretty good matchup vs offensive teams because its a great switch in to a lot of the breakers and sweepers they use like latios, mewtwo, and darkrai and really shines when you look at genesect. Genesect almost always come in at least once and steal momentum back but its almost useless vs arc steel because it takes no damage and really threatens all of genesects teammates as well. When used against bulkier teams you also have a lot of wiggle room in the last slot to make it really hard to deal with. Thunder, roar, sub, wisp are all (arguably depending on who you ask) viable options that give it a good niche to exploit different teams.

This mon is pretty comparable to arc ghost in the way it can just switch in and grab momentum back by 1v1ing a mon or threatening something out but it suffers from having a worse offensive typing as well as not being a spinblocker.

I think there is a justification to raise these mons higher than what they are because they actually have a pretty substantial niche. I think support arceus like these can provide a great backbone for a bulkier team. Arc + gira really checks almost 90% of the meta and gives you a great pivot core to still remain flexible and offensive in your plays while having the ability to turtle out for a while.

These two formes differentiate themselves by the weather they are on and the roles they perform outside of blanket walling things. Arc grass is a great cm mon that can definitely sweep if it can get +1 which is quite easy vs a lot of teams (for instance genesect is a pretty common switchin to this and uturn can be recovered on resulting in a loss of momentum for the opponent as well as an opportunity next turn to cm. Likewise iron head is really quite exploitable as well.) Arc water can definitely run a good cm set as well but I think it takes on a more supportive role better, using perish song, toxic, or roar effectively to beat other cm arcs as well as rack up hazard damage.

I think due to my stance on building I see these mons as kinda the same thing except you just use them on different teams but arc-grass definitely has great A- potential due to the fact that it has a fantastic cm set and is the more or less the only thing stopping rain balance from being 6-0d by palkia.

Aside from these I think gene is kinda mediocre compared to what everyone else thinks but im pretty sure im in the minority for that so w/e. If anyone else has strong feelings about these changes feel free to add some insight

Banned deucer.

I +1 everything byron wrote gooo byron !!! xD just replace dpp rankings as they currently stand w what he wrote and itd be an overhaul improvement imo

I agree w soviet dialga is s best sr user in the meta

Steelceus is perfect where it is now a+ is wayy overrated its a great asset in v rain or ho mu but v sun or sand u wish u brought a diff arc lol

Grassceus raise i disagree w too makes u inherently ho oh weak and if u run se kinda ruins the purpose of running it in first place aka cm idk more purely supportive shit is underwhelmimg too when a grass support that learns spikes exists see: opportunity cost

Waterceus a- i do agree w tho heck id put it in a, take the L if opp ghostceus reveals sub on the turn u tox it but other than that its a great “glue”

To clarify y i think waterceus > grASS, ps the cm set for the former is a beast too fuck z surf when u got that rain boosted judge

Also Hack maybe reaffirm in oras section that prankster shit does indeed work v dark types unlike in sm

Jirachi to top of a-
Jirachi is a notable steel type in adv ubers. It has decent bulk across and ok attack stats allowing it to run a support or offensive cm set. Both sets are mediocre imo. Sure they can do work but it's gonna need a ton of help. The cm set is underwhelming and usually finds itself on rain so it can spam thunder. It's a lati check but it's forced to go into a cm war vs them and can potentially lose especially if sun is up and icepunch can't get a freeze. Yes it's a threat but it's nowhere as dangerous as the other cm users and the biggest perk is beating blissey. The support set includes bodyslam/shadowball/wish/tect maybe firepunch. It's a much more solid way to check lati's. Body slam can spread par's to everything bar gengar which shouldn't be switching in. It might seem like it sits there and does nothing except for checking like lati's and being a tox immune but it's also a reliable wish user and can reliably heal itself with wish because it has room for protect which cm set doesnt. Firepunch can be used on sun teams so rachi can bop steels that usually come in for free. Another thing to note is if sun is up latios can 2hko with hp fire. Overall I think rachi needs to drop because it's nowhere as good as forretress/hooh in viability in fits better in a-

Magneton to a rank right below hooh
This is one of the best utility mons in adv right behind blissey and forretress. It has an amazing ability allowing it to trap the ever annoying steel types in the tier. This opens up so much for your team. You could have an offensive team with things like band snorlax/lugia that enjoy steels gone. Maybe you want to get rid of forretress so you can spike stack. Skarmory cockblocks so many offensive threats but it's easily trapped by magneton. It will have trouble switching into steelix unless it's forced to click dedge or rockslide. Registeel is the one steel that can really avoid getting trapped because of how bulky it is and can ohko back with eq. Other than trapping steels it also has a ton of things it can do for a team. It's a toxic immune mon that also resists flying/normal type attacks. It also resists both ice/electric so it can in a pinch get a clutch toxic on a lati. It's also quite annoying to switch into. Nothing really likes getting toxicated and depending on what set you are and what weather is up you will have a boosted hp fire or a thunder that won't miss. I find it on more teams than lugia, ray, regice, skarm and usually every game it's gonna put in work removing a steel or being a check to something else.

Shedinja to b rank
I'd be fine with moving it down to b- actually but lets go with b for now. Sure it can basically wall anything that doesn't have a super effective move or tox/wisp. Some examples of mons that get cockblocked by shed are kyogre, lati's, mewtwo, cm rachi, regice and others. It can also be annoying for cb users that can't spam their more powerful moves like dedge/eq. The problem with this mon is it just dies to spikes. Sure sand kills it too but it's common unlike spikes which is like on almost every team nowadays. I'd never want to run this mon just because of the simple fact spikes kills it. Like forretress is an obvious partner to shed so it can spin and it's gonna be forced to run eq>hp bug/ghost so it has a chance to catch magneton but even then it's not guaranteed that you won't be trapped. If you choose to run eq though then you are spinblocked by gengar. Magneton is a lot more common so I think eq is better. Idk how you play against omastar because it can setup spikes vs forrtress all day. Also if they spiking forretress is forced to spin meaning the opponent has a free turn everytime and you can't spike yourself so you can't punish them. This mon is a cool idea in theory but extremely hard to actually use and win consistently.

Kabutops to b rank
I don't know why people ever really thought kabutops was good. It needs rain up for it to function as a sweeper or revenge killer which is sad cause the strongest stab it has does nothing to groudon. It's forced to use hp ground to be able to hit steel types which resist it's two other more spammable attacks and it needs choice band to actually do damage so your gonna get locked into a move that you don't want to be locked into. The one niche it has is rapid spin but when are you ever gonna want to click rapid spin. If 1 spike is up or even two then it's usually not worth it unless you know for a fact kabu isn't gonna be doing any breaking. It's one of the worse swift swimmers. Aerodactly is very similar to kabu except it doesn't rely on swift swim to be fast and it has a stronger ground coverage. It's really just aero on sun while rain has kabu. They should be at the same rank.

Qwilfish to b+
A physical swift swimmer just like kabutops but has a ton of different features that make it better. It has poison stab rather than rock which isn't the best thing but sludge bomb has a higher basepower than any spammable rock move so it makes up for it. Qwilfish is cockblocked by groudon just like kabutops but instead of being able to spin you can spike which is usually better in most cases. It's a strong revenge killer and another thing it has over kabutops is access to self destruct making it a lot more dangerous as a revenge killer. You can also nuke things like groudon. The worst thing for qwilfish is not being able to do anything vs steel types becase steel types are immune or resist all of it's attacks. Sure you can spike on them but a nice idea is to pack magneton so you don't have to deal with them because they are extremely annoying especially if its forretress which comes in and spins away your hazards.Deoxys d to b+
It's a pretty weird mon if you ask me but it's been on a few teams where it works well. It's a spike setter that can taunt/knockoff and has reliable recovery making it a spiker that lasts longer than forretress, oma, skarm. Knock off is also pretty clutch in a lot of situations like being able to knock off soul dew or salac berry on gdon. If a steel type has no recover except for lefties then knock off is extremely useful too especially if spikes are up it will get worn down a lot faster. It's a decent utility mon that can check some common threats like lati's. It's not the best mon but it fits well on the same amount of teams as things like umbreon, regi, steelix so it deserves b+

Wobbuffet to b rank
After a ton of experimenting with this mon I came to the conclusion that it's a beast. It's extremely bulky and forces a ton of mons to use something other than an attack like toxic/cm etc so they won't be killed. Which obviously allows you to switch out into whatever checks that mon gaining a ton of momentum. If they do decide to attack you get to kill that mon and still have wob left which will probably be at low hp so most likely will be used a sack. Some cool things I tried that I havn't really seen anyone else do is use it as a lead since a ton of common leads hate this thing. Groudon arguably the most common lead is forced into clicking toxic/twave/roar if it has it because eq does like 2% lol. Lati twins get encored turn 1 and if they attack you always survive 2 attacks so you can mirror coat and get rid of them or just encore them into a cm. Mewtwo is forced to just boom on you and you survive so you have an extra sack. kyogre is the only thing that actually leads well vs wob. It's a 50/50 whether it can hydro or cm or status because wob really wants to mirror coat since it gets 2hko'd but if it cm's you are screwed. This idea was used to make my extremely annoying baton pass team that has seen a ton of usage and it's probably the most consistent bp team that you can make. Encore stuff turn 1 then have ninjask get a free sd/sub. If they choose to attack with shit like lati's then your ogre sitting in the back will have a fun time. It's just a very annoying lead. Anyways wob also can just act like your standard trapping wob that allows for setup or just removing choice banned mons etc and it's pretty efficient at what it does. Sometimes hard to fit onto squads but ive seen like 3-4 teams that worked well with it.

That's all the changes I'd make but b+, b, b- rank should be in a different order imo.

I'd also be ok with moving heracross up because it's super super threatening and one of the strongest sweepers if you don't have a way to revenge kill it after salac hits. It's more threatening than salac groudon. Thing is groudon has defensive synergy and activates sun while heracross has no defensive synergy.

Numquam Vincar

Those ADV noms are good, but I don't think it's fair to say that Qwil is clear cut better than Kabu. They both have some unique utility that makes them stand out from each other (boom vs. spin, Sludge vs. SD, and so on). If I had to put one above the other I'd probs pick Kabu because techs like SD and Flail can make it (potentially) a more scary wincon than a Qwil. It can also spin in a tier where spikes are good and spinners are scarce.

Sun balance is missing some EVs, Groudon should never be Calm, and some other things could probs be more optimal.

Banned deucer.

Those ADV noms are good, but I don't think it's fair to say that Qwil is clear cut better than Kabu. They both have some unique utility that makes them stand out from each other (boom vs. spin, Sludge vs. SD, and so on). If I had to put one above the other I'd probs pick Kabu because techs like SD and Flail can make it (potentially) a more scary wincon than a Qwil. It can also spin in a tier where spikes are good and spinners are scarce.

Sun balance is missing some EVs, Groudon should never be Calm, and some other things could probs be more optimal.

Banned deucer.

Yea that's my bad I made the team from scratch fast so yea obviously -att isnt optimal on groudon and 4 evs mean jack shit but they should be put in I guess. I think the team is fine itself with sets/spreads but of course there is always flexibility and things can get swapped around from being defensive to offensive. I edited the import so we all good but if you wanna make a suggestion for the squad that could potentiall be better than this version just post.

Numquam Vincar

The Hera comparison is way off. Hera has to rely on forcing opp to lower HP in order to get speed and maximize Atk power via Reversal. Kabu doesn't. It gets its speed via Rain, and on its own can force its HP down with Sub - possible because under rain its almost always the fastest mon there is. It also doesn't have to run moves like Sub or Flail if it doesn't want to - CB is an option, albeit somewhat lackluster in my opinion. mm2 seems to like it a lot for some reason.

Brushing off spin utility just because it doesn't beat the most common spike setter (Forry) is silly. The best spinner in the tier also doesn't outright beat Forry. Forry is something you can trap and eliminate, or wear down with solid offensive synergy + smart play. Even if Forry is around, you can still get rid of those Spikes. In this tier, the option to spin is always nice to have.

Banned deucer.

Well the thing is kabutops gets its speed from rain which is good and bad. It's gonna be good if rain is always up but if they got a groudon then kabu is gonna suck. Heracross between endure or the lesser option sub can lower its hp fine. Subbing down is more reliable with kabu just because chances are your gonna outspeed everything if rain is up but theres not a good chance that sub is gonna get you down to 1% sooo endure is way better imo. Heracross is frail but it can still tank a ton of things so I don't see the problem with getting an sd off even if you are getting outsped by things then it just comes down to enduring a hit to activate salac so you can sweep. The perk of having salac over swift swim is your speed wont go away with a different weather. Of course swift swim has its perks too like being able to outspeed things all game and not just a 1 time activation like salac.. anyways the biggest difference between the 2 is damage output. vs a max def groudon a +2 flail as 200bp from kabu will do 60-70 while +2 reversal at 200bp from hera will do 98 minimum. Heracross not only has a higher att but it gets stab on high bp attacks. I'd personally run heracross over kabu in most situations but like I've said before it's just hard to actually put onto a team over something like salac groudon which is why I didn't make a nom for it to move up even though it probs deserves too.

After reading through the bw vr I think that 3 changes could be made :

I think when you talk about the current ubers metagame 2 pokemon kinda stand on top and more or less define roles and influence how battles go: roar ogre and cm arc ghost. Both of these mons can pivot around and tank hits as they need, as well as force switches. They win favorable 1v1 duels or force out pokemon to get back the momentum for you. Dialga fits this role quite well (its kinda the bulkier more balanced counterpart to gene in this aspect) and I think that allows it S rank. On top of that it provides a lot of other utility to teams in the form of being the best SR setter in the tier, it can use the most broken move in the game, roar, and it can run tons of offensive sets like LO or scarf to punish various teams. Also this mon is really good vs bulkier teams because it is immune to toxic, resists sr, can phaze, and has pretty decent coverage with fireblast or thunder + a great neutral dmeteor.

I think most people know what dialga does and how good it is so im really just introducing the idea for more discussion here.

I think this is a really nice almost anti meta mon and maybe the second best arc form. I agree with the logic about fightceus and honestly I dont really use it that much so its kinda up in the air so I think there is a bit of wiggle room for arc steel.

Basically it its a great switchin to almost anything in the meta, letting u pivot around and get up momentum, as well as possibly go for a sweep. It has a pretty good matchup vs offensive teams because its a great switch in to a lot of the breakers and sweepers they use like latios, mewtwo, and darkrai and really shines when you look at genesect. Genesect almost always come in at least once and steal momentum back but its almost useless vs arc steel because it takes no damage and really threatens all of genesects teammates as well. When used against bulkier teams you also have a lot of wiggle room in the last slot to make it really hard to deal with. Thunder, roar, sub, wisp are all (arguably depending on who you ask) viable options that give it a good niche to exploit different teams.

This mon is pretty comparable to arc ghost in the way it can just switch in and grab momentum back by 1v1ing a mon or threatening something out but it suffers from having a worse offensive typing as well as not being a spinblocker.

I think there is a justification to raise these mons higher than what they are because they actually have a pretty substantial niche. I think support arceus like these can provide a great backbone for a bulkier team. Arc + gira really checks almost 90% of the meta and gives you a great pivot core to still remain flexible and offensive in your plays while having the ability to turtle out for a while.

These two formes differentiate themselves by the weather they are on and the roles they perform outside of blanket walling things. Arc grass is a great cm mon that can definitely sweep if it can get +1 which is quite easy vs a lot of teams (for instance genesect is a pretty common switchin to this and uturn can be recovered on resulting in a loss of momentum for the opponent as well as an opportunity next turn to cm. Likewise iron head is really quite exploitable as well.) Arc water can definitely run a good cm set as well but I think it takes on a more supportive role better, using perish song, toxic, or roar effectively to beat other cm arcs as well as rack up hazard damage.

I think due to my stance on building I see these mons as kinda the same thing except you just use them on different teams but arc-grass definitely has great A- potential due to the fact that it has a fantastic cm set and is the more or less the only thing stopping rain balance from being 6-0d by palkia.

Aside from these I think gene is kinda mediocre compared to what everyone else thinks but im pretty sure im in the minority for that so w/e. If anyone else has strong feelings about these changes feel free to add some insight

I agree with Dialga. I think A+ for Steelceus is pushing it. The mon is pretty nifty but being sdef Kyogre food when facing a rain team and Ho-oh food when facing sun is just too noticeable imo. You can always run Thunder but that compromises your ability to be as at sweeping/supporting depending on what you could have ran instead. Could agree on A for it but I'm really not sure of that even when I think of it. I love the mon but it seems illogical when common checks are so highly ranked (Kyogre, Dialga, Arceus-Figthing). Doing well vs Arceus-Normal/Ghost, Genesect and Latis cannot be understated but yeah... I love the mon but I'm not sure I could justify it going that much higher. If someone could explain to me how something with so many inconsistent 1v1 match-ups can still be ranked so highly then that'd be nice. regarding Arceus-Grass and Water I feel like both have such noticeable flaws in the current meta that I can't be much for ranking them higher. Back in the Palkia hype Grassceus was a super solid choice for rain teams, but now I tend to see Lati@s being used much more. This in turn makes Ferrothorn being used more, which is also bad for Grassceus. Just a trend I picked up on last 2 UPLs (I think the stats support this, especially last years stunning 0 usage of Palkia if I'm not misremembering). The meta just doesn't favor Grassceus much. As for Waterceus, it is a bit more versatile, but has a bit of an issue with being pretty passive vs things it could check. Usually it cannot run a STAB move (if you use it on sun at least), meaning your favorable match-up vs Ho-oh relies on the passivity of Toxic. It also cannot hurt Sdef Ogre. A metagame with more choiced Kyogre is favorable for it but trends don't point that way. Both Arceus Grass and Water provide useful support mons on the right team, but I'm not sure I could really see them being that much higher. I think this requires me being more convinced.

I +1 everything byron wrote gooo byron !!! xD just replace dpp rankings as they currently stand w what he wrote and itd be an overhaul improvement imo

I agree w soviet dialga is s best sr user in the meta

Steelceus is perfect where it is now a+ is wayy overrated its a great asset in v rain or ho mu but v sun or sand u wish u brought a diff arc lol

Grassceus raise i disagree w too makes u inherently ho oh weak and if u run se kinda ruins the purpose of running it in first place aka cm idk more purely supportive shit is underwhelmimg too when a grass support that learns spikes exists see: opportunity cost

Waterceus a- i do agree w tho heck id put it in a, take the L if opp ghostceus reveals sub on the turn u tox it but other than that its a great “glue”

To clarify y i think waterceus > grASS, ps the cm set for the former is a beast too fuck z surf when u got that rain boosted judge

Also Hack maybe reaffirm in oras section that prankster shit does indeed work v dark types unlike in sm

As for Arceus-Water being better than Grass... I'm not too sure. Grassceus gets away with running Wisp/Stone Edge on a support set which isn't exactly bad vs Ho-oh nor Ferrothorn. I think you vastly overstate the viability of Arceus-Water on rain: funnily enough that is where Arceus-Water fits the least. In general, opportunity cost is my main reason for keeping some good Arceus formes lower. When Arceus-Ghosts deservingly sits in S-rank, and Arceus-Fighting tends to trump most support Arceus, there is an alternative cost to running anything else really.

Jirachi to top of a-
Jirachi is a notable steel type in adv ubers. It has decent bulk across and ok attack stats allowing it to run a support or offensive cm set. Both sets are mediocre imo. Sure they can do work but it's gonna need a ton of help. The cm set is underwhelming and usually finds itself on rain so it can spam thunder. It's a lati check but it's forced to go into a cm war vs them and can potentially lose especially if sun is up and icepunch can't get a freeze. Yes it's a threat but it's nowhere as dangerous as the other cm users and the biggest perk is beating blissey. The support set includes bodyslam/shadowball/wish/tect maybe firepunch. It's a much more solid way to check lati's. Body slam can spread par's to everything bar gengar which shouldn't be switching in. It might seem like it sits there and does nothing except for checking like lati's and being a tox immune but it's also a reliable wish user and can reliably heal itself with wish because it has room for protect which cm set doesnt. Firepunch can be used on sun teams so rachi can bop steels that usually come in for free. Another thing to note is if sun is up latios can 2hko with hp fire. Overall I think rachi needs to drop because it's nowhere as good as forretress/hooh in viability in fits better in a-

Magneton to a rank right below hooh
This is one of the best utility mons in adv right behind blissey and forretress. It has an amazing ability allowing it to trap the ever annoying steel types in the tier. This opens up so much for your team. You could have an offensive team with things like band snorlax/lugia that enjoy steels gone. Maybe you want to get rid of forretress so you can spike stack. Skarmory cockblocks so many offensive threats but it's easily trapped by magneton. It will have trouble switching into steelix unless it's forced to click dedge or rockslide. Registeel is the one steel that can really avoid getting trapped because of how bulky it is and can ohko back with eq. Other than trapping steels it also has a ton of things it can do for a team. It's a toxic immune mon that also resists flying/normal type attacks. It also resists both ice/electric so it can in a pinch get a clutch toxic on a lati. It's also quite annoying to switch into. Nothing really likes getting toxicated and depending on what set you are and what weather is up you will have a boosted hp fire or a thunder that won't miss. I find it on more teams than lugia, ray, regice, skarm and usually every game it's gonna put in work removing a steel or being a check to something else.

Shedinja to b rank
I'd be fine with moving it down to b- actually but lets go with b for now. Sure it can basically wall anything that doesn't have a super effective move or tox/wisp. Some examples of mons that get cockblocked by shed are kyogre, lati's, mewtwo, cm rachi, regice and others. It can also be annoying for cb users that can't spam their more powerful moves like dedge/eq. The problem with this mon is it just dies to spikes. Sure sand kills it too but it's common unlike spikes which is like on almost every team nowadays. I'd never want to run this mon just because of the simple fact spikes kills it. Like forretress is an obvious partner to shed so it can spin and it's gonna be forced to run eq>hp bug/ghost so it has a chance to catch magneton but even then it's not guaranteed that you won't be trapped. If you choose to run eq though then you are spinblocked by gengar. Magneton is a lot more common so I think eq is better. Idk how you play against omastar because it can setup spikes vs forrtress all day. Also if they spiking forretress is forced to spin meaning the opponent has a free turn everytime and you can't spike yourself so you can't punish them. This mon is a cool idea in theory but extremely hard to actually use and win consistently.

Kabutops to b rank
I don't know why people ever really thought kabutops was good. It needs rain up for it to function as a sweeper or revenge killer which is sad cause the strongest stab it has does nothing to groudon. It's forced to use hp ground to be able to hit steel types which resist it's two other more spammable attacks and it needs choice band to actually do damage so your gonna get locked into a move that you don't want to be locked into. The one niche it has is rapid spin but when are you ever gonna want to click rapid spin. If 1 spike is up or even two then it's usually not worth it unless you know for a fact kabu isn't gonna be doing any breaking. It's one of the worse swift swimmers. Aerodactly is very similar to kabu except it doesn't rely on swift swim to be fast and it has a stronger ground coverage. It's really just aero on sun while rain has kabu. They should be at the same rank.

Qwilfish to b+
A physical swift swimmer just like kabutops but has a ton of different features that make it better. It has poison stab rather than rock which isn't the best thing but sludge bomb has a higher basepower than any spammable rock move so it makes up for it. Qwilfish is cockblocked by groudon just like kabutops but instead of being able to spin you can spike which is usually better in most cases. It's a strong revenge killer and another thing it has over kabutops is access to self destruct making it a lot more dangerous as a revenge killer. You can also nuke things like groudon. The worst thing for qwilfish is not being able to do anything vs steel types becase steel types are immune or resist all of it's attacks. Sure you can spike on them but a nice idea is to pack magneton so you don't have to deal with them because they are extremely annoying especially if its forretress which comes in and spins away your hazards.Deoxys d to b+
It's a pretty weird mon if you ask me but it's been on a few teams where it works well. It's a spike setter that can taunt/knockoff and has reliable recovery making it a spiker that lasts longer than forretress, oma, skarm. Knock off is also pretty clutch in a lot of situations like being able to knock off soul dew or salac berry on gdon. If a steel type has no recover except for lefties then knock off is extremely useful too especially if spikes are up it will get worn down a lot faster. It's a decent utility mon that can check some common threats like lati's. It's not the best mon but it fits well on the same amount of teams as things like umbreon, regi, steelix so it deserves b+

Wobbuffet to b rank
After a ton of experimenting with this mon I came to the conclusion that it's a beast. It's extremely bulky and forces a ton of mons to use something other than an attack like toxic/cm etc so they won't be killed. Which obviously allows you to switch out into whatever checks that mon gaining a ton of momentum. If they do decide to attack you get to kill that mon and still have wob left which will probably be at low hp so most likely will be used a sack. Some cool things I tried that I havn't really seen anyone else do is use it as a lead since a ton of common leads hate this thing. Groudon arguably the most common lead is forced into clicking toxic/twave/roar if it has it because eq does like 2% lol. Lati twins get encored turn 1 and if they attack you always survive 2 attacks so you can mirror coat and get rid of them or just encore them into a cm. Mewtwo is forced to just boom on you and you survive so you have an extra sack. kyogre is the only thing that actually leads well vs wob. It's a 50/50 whether it can hydro or cm or status because wob really wants to mirror coat since it gets 2hko'd but if it cm's you are screwed. This idea was used to make my extremely annoying baton pass team that has seen a ton of usage and it's probably the most consistent bp team that you can make. Encore stuff turn 1 then have ninjask get a free sd/sub. If they choose to attack with shit like lati's then your ogre sitting in the back will have a fun time. It's just a very annoying lead. Anyways wob also can just act like your standard trapping wob that allows for setup or just removing choice banned mons etc and it's pretty efficient at what it does. Sometimes hard to fit onto squads but ive seen like 3-4 teams that worked well with it.

That's all the changes I'd make but b+, b, b- rank should be in a different order imo.

I'd also be ok with moving heracross up because it's super super threatening and one of the strongest sweepers if you don't have a way to revenge kill it after salac hits. It's more threatening than salac groudon. Thing is groudon has defensive synergy and activates sun while heracross has no defensive synergy.

I'll add the team. Although I'm not sure I find sdef Ho-oh or CB Regirock entirely optimal. I tend to like some kinda utility set with Registeel and Ho-oh to be CB. Things like double status+boom Regirock really supports CB Ho-oh well (twaving Ogres on switch and whatnot). Additionally the team having Forretress+Blissey makes such a defensive Ho-oh a bit redundant imo.

As far as the ranking changes go (I won't go into the ordering of mons rn) I tend to agree with Rachi/Mag/Shed/Kabutops. I don't think Qwil is that much better than Kabu but as far as I'm concerned Kabu has a big issue being walled by the same thing that also changes weather from its preferred state... This is just so inconvenient. Spin is nice but honestly Omastar seems better in most ways. Qwil and Kabu seem to be (Kabu could be worse in my opinion). I agree with Wob, Deo-D and Heracross must definitely move up as well.

crackling abuser

I am nominating Tauros for C rank in the ADV viability rankings. You really have to watch using this to make sure it isn't a worse Lugia or Slaking, but its Intimidate antics and Speed tier do give it opportunities to attack where Slaking can't, the ability to threaten a speed tie KO with the eons (it can even be reasonably EVed to live Timid Dragon Claw from Latios), and help soften the physical moves in a moments notice. It lacks the raw power (or Flying-type STAB in Lugia's case) of just about every other viable physical attacker, but I do believe the small bonuses it has in Speed and Intimidate are enough to justify it in a very small number of cases. I guess it is also worth mentioning that its biggest flaw is that it can only run HP ghost to hit Gengar.

Other than that, all of the ORAS sample teams that use Gengar have it using Cursed Body which is a small inconvenience.