Stupid device? The Smartener is here!

One thing that I love with Planet NEEO is to discuss with you all and hearing your thoughts and feedback. One of the much discussed early topics was NEEOs “stupid device" handling. Many of you who own an “affected” device, reported that the current handling was not ideal for you. Based on that we changed development priorities a bit - to get this out to you quickly. This is the biggest change in release 0.48.31. Over 4000 new lines of code have been written for that feature alone! I’m excited to tell you what we came up with:

When adding a "not-so-smart-device" (formerly known as "stupid device") you will be presented with new options & some magic:

The Device Smartener

We are proud to introduce a way to truly smarten your device!

The biggest issue in the market when trying to control a "not-so-smart-device" is not knowing the device's status. This changes today! Instead of just building a pure infrared solution like the other control products out there, we thought we utilize something that almost all those devices have in common: HDMI! We use it to know - and not just assume - the real status of the monitored device. This makes things much more reliable.

In order to accomplish that, our developers needed to dive deep into the HDMI code and actually come up with new workflows and smart filtering. Some inventions around that even made it into the latest patent we filed.

I hope you will love it! Please note that this magic requires the NEEO Brain to be wired over HDMI to your AV system. Also, not all devices support HDMI CEC and some don’t even have an HDMI port (your old VCR as an example ;-). For those, we introduce the new assumption mode.

Assumption Mode

In this mode, the NEEO Brain assumes in which state your "not-so-smart-device" is and tracks its power status across all recipes and interactions. The assumption mode then assures the so-called "power toggle” command is used in the exact right moments. This assumption mode is also the way to get rid of the power screen and manual interactions that several affected users disliked. NEEO will now handle all of that for you so it feels like a smart device. Additionally - any devices operating in assumption mode has quick access to a “fix" option in case your device should ever be in the wrong state.

Manual Mode

Don’t worry, if you are in favor of the current handling, you can still choose the “Manual Mode” to continue to use your not-so-smart-devices exactly the way you did up to know. You can switch forth and back between the modes at any point via the device settings.

What to do if you already have "not-so-smart” devices on your NEEO?

Pretty easy, here’s what to do after the update:

Device Smartener: Have the original remote ready. Open the NEEO App, then navigate to the settings on the top right and open “Device”. Then tap on the "not-so-smart” device and choose “Re-run device smartener”. Follow the instructions on the screen.

Assumption Mode: Open the NEEO App, then navigate to the settings on the top right and open “Device”. Then tap on the "not-so-smart” device and choose “Change power mode”, just follow the screen and choose “Assumption Mode”. Your recipes will automatically be adjusted.

In case you add a new “not-so-smart-device” it’s even easier, the NEEO setup will guide you through the process.

I hope you enjoy that. I’m sure it makes a drastic difference for some of you and I look forward hearing from you. Thanks again for all the feedback you guys have provided.

Now the question is, how the cabling has to be done. I have a TV (Samsung) and 4 HDMI Ports. At each of these ports, a device is connected (Apple TV, Bluray player, Nintendo Switch, Nintendo Wii U). Sonos Playbar is connected to the TV.

I assume that I have no chance to add Neeo to this setup and maybe it's not needed (I have no clue about "stupid" or "non-stupid-devices"). I just can say that powering on/off my devices with the ancient firmware (the one available till today) was not bullet-proof ...

Patrick Thanks for replying. I did that, but the outcome is now, that there are blackouts when I use my Apple TV. My setup is now: Samsung TV with 4 HDMIs, NEEO is connected to the first HDMI port, Apple TV to HDMI2, and HDMI3 goes to a PureLink PT-SW-HD41UHD switch, that handles all my Gaming devices (3 Nintendo devices).

So if NEEO is now connected on HDMI1, and I am looking a movie on Apple TV 4k (HDMI2), the screen goes black sometimes (not on a regular basis, but quite often).

Removing NEEO from the "HDMI network" fixes the issue.

Then I decided to add a Google Chromecast Ultra and tried to add it to the NEEO Brain. The app told me that it could not find the device (but told me that have to use HDMI-CEC). Google Chromecast was connecto on HDMI4 of my TV (and not the Purelink switch).

So I would say that there is something unstable with this new HDMI stuff ...

Nicolas Jene I have seen many strange cases during the development of our HDMI CEC integration, but screen blackouts when attaching the NEEO Brain was not among them. Would you mind sharing a video of that (if possible with plugging in the NEEO Brain and unplugging it)? Do you have a spare HDMI cable you could test in between the NEEO Brain and the AVR?

Hm, I honestly have to check if the ChromeCast-Ultra is supported with the current driver we have. I will let you know as soon as I had a chance to talk to the team.

HDMI CEC will sure get further improvements since we are learning from all of your feedback.

Patrick I did again a test and now it works. Difference: I installed the latest update that came quickly after the big release. I did a 10 minutes check with the same film and the same cabling and I had no blackouts.

Simon Balz This works for any CEC enabled devices. There is no specific driver or so needed. Also - in case your „not-so-smart-device“ doesn’t work with the smartener beaucae it does not have CEC or so just switch to the assumption mode and you will have a nice experience too. Thanks

Good news. I have a little question, does it works to detect stupid device and support PS4 at the same time if the NEO Brain is connected to my Yamaha receiver ? Off course, my PS4 and my stupid device and the others are connected tu my Yamahe receiver.

Aaaaargh. HDMI-CEC is my arch nemesis. I managed to get my NEEO set up just about working by turning OFF HDMI-CEC in everything. My setup includes a PS4 pro, Xbox one X, Apple TV 4k and virgin media TiVo box connected to a Marantz NR1607 connected to an LG OLEDB6. Bottom line - HDMI-CEC didn’t work for me with the PS4 and ATV randomly switching on/off, triggering the tv on/off, switching inputs when I wanted to watch something else etc. The TiVo is the ‘stupid’ device. I’ll try assumption mode first and see if that changes things for the better. Not keen to mess around with HDMI again.

Patrick . Happy to report that virgin TiVo box works just fine in assumption mode. Well done! Now awaiting the screen reordering etc, and the ability to update shortcuts without actually starting a recipe would be good too.

I cant’ plug all the “stupid devices” to brain, but insted using Assumption Mode all it’s works fantastic now. Plugin on the reciepe and the “stupid devices” just power on (I have added a power on step) but the great thing is when you “turn off the reciepe”... the assumption mode makes his work and the stupid devices just power off (before this update I have to press “leave reciepe”.. not now.

I only had to change on my tv (after an update of device) “hdmi x (macro) instead hdmi x like it was before.

Patrick for dumb devices that you don't know whether they are on or not. There is no harm in sending a POWER ON command before other commands. If it is on, doesn't do anything. If it is off, now it is on. I prefer this method over state tracking since if someone uses a non-NEEO device, they will mess up the tracking.

Tarun Nagpal when the device can receive a power on (and off) command then it would not be a ‘not so smart’ device and would it not require any state tracking. Using another remote while being in a recipe with ‘not so smart’ devices will always mess up the recipe and cannot be solved by Neeo (nor by Logitech or any other).

BuzzLightyear I don't understand what my explanation didn't make clear. The TV is on or off. Send a power on command regardless each and every time you need the TV. No need to track state or do anything else. Too many remotes tso let you do stuff like this because they want to simplify things. Just let me sequencers power on in every single recipeinvolving that dumb TV or whatever.

Tarun Nagpal Just to clarify what BuzzLightYear is saying: A device that does not have a discrete Power On command and another discrete Power Off command is a "stupid" or "dumb" device. These devices only have Power TOGGLE commands, which means we cannot send a Power Toggle command before sending any other command.

Tarun Nagpal Perhaps you don't realize that what qualifies a device as being "not so smart device" is the absence of "Power Off" and/or "Power On" commands. These devices only support "Power Toggle" thats why you need to track the device state

All this “stupid device” is based on the assumption that NEEO is mature enough to be the one and only control point ( ie: nothing else can change the power state of devices ).

In such a case, devices for which discreet IR codes for powering on and off are provided, can be dealt with as stateful.

Unfortunately NEEO is far from being mature enough to allow users to lock away device remotes.

On top of that, many devices have their own logic that determines changes to power state, for power saving concerns or to allow waking up ( ie from network ).

This means that by design the current integration ( solely based on IR ) is faulty.

Any device that is only integrated via IR, be it with a power toggle or discreet power codes should be considered “stupid”, since NEEO has no way to determine the actual state of the device.

Quick example: if Power ON is sent but for some reason the device doesn’t get the input or decides to ignore it... NEEO will assume the device is ON.

Again.... many devices are open to smart integration, via HDMI CEC, or TCP API etc... it seems like NEEO team is focusing too much on low-value integrations via IR, while the big issue is building an integration that is aware and reliable.

There is so much that with IR can’t be done, regardless of state awareness.

For instance, setting the amplifier to an absolute volume level is impossible with IR ( only relative steps to increase or decrease ). This is possible with API integration.

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano I tend to agree with you that where available CEC or Network API should be the preferred control method as inherently more reliable. At the present state of affairs, though, IR is the minimum common denominator and I believe this is the reason why so much effort is placed into it. A robust IR implementation should make most people happy.

I respectfully disagree with your assesment that

Any device that is only integrated via IR, be it with a power toggle or discreet power codes should be considered “stupid”, since NEEO has no way to determine the actual state of the device.

Any device supporting discrete commands for its basic functions i.e. ON, OFF, Channel # etc. from the integration point of view does not require NEEO or any other smart remotes to track its state as there is simply not penalty to send, for example, the ON command to an already ON device (the command just is ignored). The problem is completely different for devices without discrete commands and just "toggles" which NEEO chose to call "stupid" or not so smart".

Those device are just an integration nightmare as, even if your track their state, the stored state go easily out of sync for the many reasons you pointed out. This is not a NEEO maturity problem but is a problem common to all smart remotes because it is due to the limitations of these "toggle only" devices. Having said that, I believe the solution the NEEO team came up with, of checking the device status via CEC and use power toggle appropriately is just brilliant and in itself better than wha my Logitech remote offers.

My suggestion is, if you can, employ devices with discrete commands. In my specific user case, I went as far as building a contraption with an Arduino to read IR codes and discretely control the power stateI of my home theater PC which supported only "toggle" for its power function. After that, I have been very happy with the NEEO flawlessly controlling all the components of my system as all of the controlled devices were now "smart".

If you can't have all "smart" devices, using the "smartification" with CEC should be a very good (as in reliable) solution if it works for your specific device.

Relying only on the remote remembering the device state should be the last resort as you will have for sure annoying out of sync states you will have to deal with manually.

If I understood correctly, Tarun Nagpal and Ascanio Colonna di Paliano are not unhappy about how we handle not-so-smart-devices, its rather about the "smart devices" which do have specific commands for ON and OFF. As far as I have understood it, currently the ON and OFF devices are not sent when relaunching a recipe since NEEO already assumes it is on, but it would basically not matter to send out these commands each time.

We will look into this, we will also look into options how to better handle "smart devices", cause basically, you are right, these can also get out of sync when a command is missed.

It's not just about remotes. The state can change easily without using a remote at all:

there're devices already communicating with each other or simply doing a one way check causing a state change, like a screen automatically switching inputs until they find a connected channel or devices telling a screen, projector or AVR to switch to them using CEC when they turn on

there are plenty of devices which automatically turn off after a certain amount of idle time

99,99% of the devices have buttons which can be pressed by any user walking by or even accidentally

Some people (like me) prefer to use mains switches on devices that don't have to run 24/7 to save power

The idea that a device like Neeo will be able to be the single point of control without being able to monitor the real state of the device it controls is (put in friendly terms) naive.

Patrick Thank you for mentioning this. I noticed it as well with the new release and indeed it is a problem. NEEO seem to be tracking status of smart devices as well where perhaps it shouldn't or is should be user choice.

In my particular situation I have added a Power ON button for some of my devices on the remote screen, as they go to sleep after a period of inactivity, I prefer to use those button rather than powering off everything and rerunning the recipe as my Samsung TV cannot be turned immediately on after being powered off.

I have noticed that if a device goes to sleep and NEEO thinks it is still on, pressing the Power On function I added to the remote for that device does not send any IR code. If I add the off function and press it, the off code is sent correctly and afterward, since now NEEO thinks the device is Off, if I use the Power On button the IR code is sent. SO definitely NEEO is tracking the status of smart devices but it should not, or it should be left to the user to decide based on their particular use case.

You introduced the possibility to power on the PS4 (Playstation 4) over HDMI CEC already in a previous release. All my devices are connected through HDMI (controlled by a Yamaha RX-A1020) and when I tried turning on the PS4 using NEEO it didn't work. I spent about 1,5 hours connecting and disconnecting the HDMI cables on the back of my devices, and then it suddenly started to work even if the setup was exactly how I had it initially. I putted all the devices back in their cabinets and managed to use NEEO to turn on and off the PS4 using HDMI CEC a couple of times, but the next time I tried, a few days later, it didn't work again (nothing in the setup had changed). After that I never got it to work anymore and I didn't want to crawl back behind my devices to pull out and reconnect the cables for some hours again. So now I just get out of the sofa and get the PS4 remote when I need to use the PS4. I really hope that this HDMI CEC support in the current release works better :(

Anders Willstedt It would be really great if you could give this a try. We managed to find quite a few issues which were especially happening when an AVR was involved, these have been fixed in this release. It has not only gotten much more reliable but also much quicker.

If you are still having trouble, let us know. This could be a very interesting case for a deeper analysis.

Patrick I checked yesterday and I still have the same problem with my PS4 even after the last update - it cannot be started or controlled by NEEO. Though, when powering off my system with NEEO the Playstation 4 also turns off, so I guess the HDMI CEC is working somehow with the new smartener. But the rest of my stuff works beautifully now with the new solution - I had two previously dumb devices that now turns on and off as they should. WAF is high again.

Anders Willstedt If only the PS4 did not respond to the Controls the right way, i would highly recommend to change the HDMI Cable between PS4 and the rest of the Setup. It can be, that this cable is not made for CEC.

No - it's a device protocol carried over HDMI that allows remote discovery of the device and commands - think of it as mimics IR commands over HDMI. DLNA is, partly, a playback protocol carried over IP that allows remote discovery and playback of media

Besides dumb devices without descrete power on/off codes, the other pita is input selection on TV's without descrete input selection codes like most of the Philips TV's including the latest OLED models. Basically their 'smart' TV is still quite dumb... Maybe this is the wrong thread, but how does Neeo smartener handle this if I may ask?

Sven De Paepe We are not yet working on specific solutions for "input-stupid" devices. This can not be handled as general as the solution for "power stupid" solutions which we have just published. This would have to be a specific handling for each and every TV, and it could even be dependent on the firmware version you have installed.

Could you let me know which specific TV model you have? Then I will have the device driver team check if they have some ideas for the commands.

Loic Vorke HD41 Pro, Ligawo 3080026. Both are 4x1 switches and from the same OEM so they share the exact same specs. 4K, high bandwidth 18Gbps, HDCP 2.2, HDMI2.0, HDR etc. Works great with e.g. Sony 4K tv’s, PS4 Pro, Apple TV 4K

Daniel Koch in principle any HDMI switch should work but there is no 100% guarantee. I had one (cheap) switch that would not work in my configuration. See my other post above with two switches that do work (in my configuration)

However, I'm not quite sure if this would work out for me: I'm having a couple of devices connected to my Denon 1713 receiver. My digital TV box is "stupid" and is connected to my receiver. Everything else is smart and it all connects perfectly when running the TV-recipe, except the digital TV box. So how does it exactly work with NEEO? Where do I connect it via HDMI? And will it recognize the "stupid" TV box even if it's connected to the receiver?

Rolf Blidborg it ain’t there. For NEEO all my devices are stupid, even if they aren’t in fact ( smart TV, and MusicCast enabled Yamaha amp ).... the Apple TV is also integrated only via IR... non of these show a smartening option

Can I turn on the smartener for a device NEEO thinks is not stupid? In some situations my device supports individual power on/off ir commands but in my case it only supports power toggle until it's powered on.

For those interested in the specifics I am using Microsoft MCE Remote receiver with a PC running Kodi (libreelec). The remote is only able to wake the pc from sleep over usb with pwr toggle, and once it has turned on the on/off ir commands work correctly.

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano Try a reboot of the Brain and the App. This can happen, when to many users try to access the Servers. Also there are some times outtages during Sync between the Main Database and the Server side.

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano Sorry to hear your NEEO is having issues. Can you DM the NEEO host name which can be found in the about section in the app? If it's okay with you, I can have one of our devs check to see the logs if has not successfully updated.

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano The photo that is posted is through the web browser. I am asking if you can add via the app? I want to narrow down the web interface from the app at this point to help isolate the issue.

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano As i see, you still not provide your Hostname, without the hostname, no fault can be tracked down into the Logfiles.

Also the Side can't work from an mobile Browser, thats why you get the fault message. If you still have trouble with the search of the devices, i would highly say it is needed to reload the Brain and try again. But i will let the NEEO Team do their Job, other helpers seems not to be welcome from your side...

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano Nothing that I was made aware of. I know you have tried with a different account, however can you perform a data reset of your NEEO Brain and then create a new account? I understand you have tried with a different account, but I recommend this at the moment along with the data reset of the brain :).

Jeff OK so. I connected the brain to Ethernet and before resetting data tried to search for devices. The search was successful.

I then tried WiFi again... and the search still works ( BTW, the brain doesn’t find my 5Ghz WiFi... isn’t that supported??? ).

I tried to add the TV again ( actually another model because my Panasonic TX-L32BL6E is still not in the list ), and it didn’t give me the “Stupid Device” screen. Aren’t IR-only devices stupid ( no state awareness )??

So at this point my questions are:

- will I have to disassemble my home every time I want to add a new device, to connect the brain to Ethernet?

- is the stateless IR integration not considered “stupid device” for things such as my TV and Yamaha D-N603 MusicCast enabled receiver/amp?

In this case what is this smartifier all about? When I have HDMI CEC and TCP API enabled devices and the only way to control them is with stupid IR...

I will perform the data reset at this point, since I guess you will want me to do it anyway, and I might as well do it now that the house is half disassembled :P

will report back, but I guess the data log is what you can collect directly to analyze.

Ascanio Colonna di Paliano are you blocking ports to the internet on your WiFi connection? It seems to be a local network issue the way I look at it. The devs will be back on Monday, maybe they can have a look.

Niels de Klerk nope, call me crazy but I have no security setup on my router. Only thing is a fixed IP assigned to the brain based on MAC address. Was intended in case I had time to build some integration code myself, which unfortunately I don’t.

RaphaelPatrick The Smartener does not work for the Swisscom UHD Box. The Box cannot be found via HDMI CEC. It is wired through a Onkyo AVR. (The PS4 can be controlled using CEV via the same AVR so there shoud be no wiring issue). Any suggestion??

Beni This can happen, if the swisscom box doesn't send out or receive the CEC Signal to the Bus. You can recheck if you reboot your NEEO Brain with plugged in HDMI Connection and try again, or the Box and NEEO currently don't like to talk to each other!

Markus Mahr The Swisscombox does not support CEC at all. But Andy promised that after the firmware update the box should work with the power toggle and the smartener and therefore removed the bevore workimg discrete power commands

Beni Let me loop in Andy so he can look into this. The assumption mode also turns it on automatically as part of the recipe. You only need to "Fix" it if did not power on or power off properly. In either case, we will get on this :).

Power off never worked. Please take a look at the Swisscom post. We tried to fix the power off command many times, but everybody reported that it doesn't work. If you want to have the Back button as power command, just choose the assumption mode, delete the Power toggle from the recipe steps and add BACK. To mark it as stupid and get this perfectly working with the assumption mode is for sure better then a version with discrete power commands that doesn't work at all. Thanks for understanding!