As it stands now, this is midtown cleveland, yes it even looks bad from outerspace.(http://hotelbruce.com/images/images_01_02/future06.jpg)

And from the streets, the area is so decayed that most of it already has reverted back to nature.(http://hotelbruce.com/images/images_01_02/midtown3.jpg)

A future plan calls for several biotechnology buildings and to revitalize brown spaces into parks. Theres also a growing trend of mixed income housing in the area. (any locals ever pass by those mansions on chester avenue? heh). (http://hotelbruce.com/images/images_01_02/future01_lg.jpg)

(http://www.hotelbruce.com/images/images_01_02/future09_lg.jpg)This is a concept for designing the Euclid Corridor transit stations.

(http://hotelbruce.com/images/images_01_02/future11_lg.jpg)Also concepts for retail and cafe "zones" designated for the Euclid Corridor.

Blaxploitation is common in movies of the 1970s, which seemed to "celebrate" inner-city blacks in highly criminal, over-sexed roles, plots, scenarios, etc. Perhaps the most famous Blaxploitation movie is Shaft (great tune!).

FYI: I had to copy and past the URLs for those pics into my Web browser to view the images.

Lastly, when I interviewed Jim Haviland for my TOD story in Sun last winter, he said the masterplan will include a "transit-supportive" zoning classification, to be added to the city's cobwebbed zoning code. Euclid Avenue is proposed to be rezoned once the classification is adopted with few revisions (hopefully!). It would be good to get a copy of the TOD zoning classification, post it here, and make it available to your municipalities around Ohio.

I wanted to start a thread for discussion about construction projects in Midtown (between Cleveland Clinic and downtown). I drive thu Midtown occasionally and have noticed at least 5-6 construction projects that are all in the works, mostly just fenced off areas where the land was cleared out. I noticed that a lot of 3-4 floor industrial buildings/offices have popped up VERY quickly.. the Sewer Department around E. 40th/Euclid came from nowhere. Same with the building nearby it which houses a new Subway. I saw a small building being torn down on Carnegie yesterday with guys cleaning up an old building on the other side of the street (around E. 84th). Then, there is a huge lot cleared out just west of Cleveland Clinic on Euclid. The area is fenced off and the lot has been cleared out, either something was torn down or they are making way for housing/building. Then, the Giant Eagle at about E. 80th and Euclid is closed and fenced off. It is full of grafitti, but looks like it will be torn down soon (GOOD!) since this lot has much potential (considering that new housing project is across the street from it). Next, on Euclid at E. 55th, there has been talk of a warehouse being cleaned up and right across the street on the north side of Euclid at E. 55th, there is a sign that shows a very long industrial building (4 floors or so) saying space is available. Then, at E. 50th next to the Agora, a building recently burned down, leaving a gigantic hole and fenced off area along Euclid --- now forcing the owner to sell or re-build. Finally, where I am seeing the most progress is along Chester between CSU and E. 55th. There is at least 2, if not 3 lots that have been cleared out and fenced off. What the hell is going on? A lot of stuff is dissapearing and leaving empty lots or bringing new low-rise office buildings. In my opinion, if this keeps up, we may get a midtown full of bustling industrial businesses and far fewer abandoned, decaying warehouses. This is all happening before Euclid is even re-built by RTA - imagine what it will be like AFTER Euclid is re-built! I think the midtown planners are moving in the right direction - a trip down Euclid presents a picture: CSU pushing to its boundaries on the west end. Cleveland Clinic and The Playhouse on your east end. Then, between the two, which in essence, is the missing link between the two, we have a new bus line/tree-lined road being built with new industrial businesses popping up every 10 or so blocks. Progress? Hell yes, but, I don't see high rises in that specific area anytime soon.

One last thing worth noting is the potential that Prospect has at around E. 46th. Right near the spot on Prospect where it branches off in 2 directions near Carnegie/E. 40th at a "broadway" angle, you will notice so many mid-rise apartment buildings lined along Prospect between E. 40th and E. 30th, which right now is a pretty rough area, especially to live in. However, I see this becoming a hugely restored "ritzy" area one day - it might not be for 30 years, or even 50, but it won't always remain a hodgepodge - it has that chic look that led to success in Tribeca (NYC) and Tremont (CLE).. I drove down there this week and felt like this part of Prospect is so freaking awesome!

Well, if anyone wants to add to this thread, go right ahead. I might take pictures of midtown Cleveland next week.. there is just so much in that area to be discussed.. I even think that if midtown gets a major boost of support in the next years, there is potential for a fairly big park in the middle of everything - land is cheap and there is lots of it available. Right now, a park would not work, but one day it could in that area, especially near Euclid/E. 65th. And one other idea that may be in the some developers heads is to try and build casino's in that area - as we all know, a casino calls for lots of land. Where else can ya find it cheaper than in midtown???

Most of the ideas I threw out are my own personal ideas.. I have not researched Midtown nearly enough to know what is really going on. But I do believe this area will prevail (again)!!!

Anyone ever imagine what midtown would look like if it was as successful as Lakewood and downtown were with housing in the 60's? Think of what that area would look like if Willson Tower (E. 55th/Chester) wasn't the only high-rise in midtown! I hate seeing that tall building with shitty, ugly, falling apart buildings on all sides of it. Maybe in 200 years when our midtown is nothing but skyscrapers, people will look at that historic registry at Wilson Tower and say, "The guys who developed this building had a vision for midtown, but unfortunately no one else saw it their way for a 100 years!"

Really though.. :-D

Why is Wilson Tower where it is? When the building was built, that area was no better than it is today.. what caused that to be built right there? I don't like the area especially, and I do think it is quite a rough area, but I would just love to have a top floor room in that place, with views of Cleveland in all directions, I'd love it 24/7!!!!!! Out of curiosity, anyone know anything about the building such as reason for building it right there? If CMHA owns it, wouldn't they opt to build low-rise housing vs. the more expensive high-rise?

I honestly dont see midtown truely booming untill the area on St. Clair around the PD and when CSU really starts to build a critical mass around it. Im talking when CSU gets most/all of its master plan in place, with all the student housing. Eventualy the students will move off campus and still be going to school, logicaly Midtown is the next best place to be. Dumping all the new residential and all the various shops they would need, would be the cheapest there and still close to campus.

If Zaremba breaks ground on its 400 units this year in the Erieview urban renewal area, this would be a nice kickstart to creating an attractive area northwest of CSU. If CSU builds housing or gets a developer to do so, the area around the PD will be a pretty interest place---CSU and student residences to the immediate south, market rate ritzy stuff to the west, and art lofts across the street. We shall see.

Yep, that area has so much in store for it, with the new Zaremba project and the restoration of CSU and PD's new building will all help bring things together.

In regards to Midtown - that district/area does not begin until roughly E. 30th. I don't know it's diameter, but it is bordered by Chinatown on the north, CSU on the west, Prospect Historic District/heavy public housing on the south, and Cleveland Clinic/Fairfax on the east. CSU, PD, and Zaremba's project all fall within the Civic Center/CSU area which most likely will become fully re-developed simultaneously with Midtown.

Midtown is such a large area. It will take many many years for the entire area to come back. I hope that focus is placed on Euclid avenue properties. With the BRT project, hopefully developement will start on Euclid are spread radially.

you can really tell whats "lively" and what isnt when driving along euclid at night. at about E79th to E55th is pretty much the dead zone. the clinic and the new housing keep that area lively and after that train bridge you have the agora and further stuff related to downtown that keep that zone going. but the spot in the middle is REAL dead. like only things lit up are the street lights. im sure when the EC is finished theres also going to be some new stuff. If only that E55th block of buildings could be redeveloped as a "midway" point on the route to give a destination between downtown and university circle.

Calyx LLC, a provider of information technology services, plans to move its office from Lakewood to a larger space in Cleveland’s Midtown neighborhood this weekend.

Calyx’s new office in the Mid-City Building, 3635 Perkins Ave., measures 4,000 square feet. The firm’s old location on Cliffdale Avenue in Lakewood was only about 1,000 square feet, said managing partner Jason Fordu.

The three-person company needed space for computer equipment and new hires. Calyx plans to hire about five people in 2007, Mr. Fordu said. The group also wanted the office to be in the city.

Calyx is leasing space at the building, which is owned by Rose Management Co.

Mr. Fordu declined to release revenues of the 2-year-old company, but said Calyx already in 2007 has generated about half of last year’s revenue figure.

as a fixie rider, I wish it was a velodrome, but as there is already an indoor mtn bike park in that area, I certainly won't complain. perhaps I will get one of those bikes with the knobby tires and tool around e 55.

Sarcasm, yes. This seems like a real low intensity use for a major intersection on the main street of our city. Basically, how will it be different from a vacant lot with a few paths, hills and dips cut into it? I am still hoping for more- dense urban housing, the Midtown Tech Center to get going, maybe some neighborhood retail. Maybe this is ok for a little while if it doesn't get in the way of future redevelopment of the site.

I'll take a stab at it. it is good because that area of cleveland needs amenities. and there's certainly not a dearth of brownfields and empty lots that need redevelopment. so why not? think of it as a park, for young people on bikes. and it is not without precendent. as I mentioned, there is an indoor mtn bike park, which is pretty fancy. as is my nature, I totally spaced the location. but it is still something, first of its kind in the world, and quite popular in the winter months.

I'm with Math on this one. Great neighborhoods need amenities. I agree that this site is prominent, but if done right, I think this could be a bike park/ sculpture park that could be enjoyed by both cyclists and non-cyclists alike.

While I agree that housing and retail are important, I believe neighborhood parks are just as critical.

Aggghh. Why tear down the buildings at E57th and Euclid? What, do they need 2'-0" to get a functional bike park? THERE ARE ACRES UPON ACRES OF FREAKING EMPTY LOTS TO BUILD A BIKE PARK ON!I'm so sick of this type of thinking in this damn city.

Please...this is absolutely ridiculous. This is a major intersection in the City of Cleveland close to highway transportation, right on a new major bus line that is costing millions and half way between Cleveland's two large employment centers (downtown and UC). Why in the world is Midtown focusing on this rather than attracting developers to build something (anything) which will create hundreds of jobs. I mean what is Midtown's mission? They seem lost on this one. This may be a worthwhile project (and I have nothing against green space in the area) but there are scores of locations where it would be more appropriate. It seems to me they are just tire of all those empty lots they can't seem to market.

I don't see this as that ridiculous. I'll qualify this first by saying that I don't know the entire footprint. Cleveland has a lot of open and derelict spaces in all the wrong places. Yes, I'd love to see an office complex here that employees thousands, but how likely is that? I trust that MidTown has tried and tried to make that happen, and that in their ever-wise judgment feel that its just not going to happen. Why not take this space and infuse a bunch of young adventurous people into the area. Make this a unique experience. Add a skatepark to the mix. Then watch as bike store opens across the street. Then a skateboard shop. Then some cool alternative concert club shows up. Then a cafe or two or three. etc etc.

I'm all for innovative ideas that add life to our city. I'm very curious about this project. My first thought was negative, but I'd like to find out more about their plans.

As a mountain biker and road cyclist, I can attest that these type of amenities are important to a demographic that Cleveland claims to want to attract and keep here. That said, I can also understand why a bike park may not immediately appear to be a high value/return for land use when compared with retail, housing or office use. However, there are spin-off benefits of amenities such as a bike park that may be overlooked unless they are seen as part of the big picture in Cleveland. Take Ray’s Indoor Mountain Bike Park that was mentioned in an earlier post:

http://www.raysmtb.com

Ray’s is in the Walford Industrial Park in the West Boulevard area. Not only does the park have a solid local following and a supportive community of riders, but also since Ray’s opened in 2004, busloads of Canadians and other out-of-towners have been making their way to Cleveland specifically to spend their winter weekends riding at Ray’s. In fact, last year over half the riders that came to Ray’s on the weekends were from outside the region. See some of their comments http://www.thebikinghub.com/mtb/rays-indoor-mtb-park-feature/

I am not suggesting that a bike park in Midtown will result in the same number of out-of-town visits that Ray’s draws. But amenities such as Ray’s and bike trails in our parks are important enough to Clevelanders that they have donated thousands hours to advocate for, to design, to build, and to maintain these facilities. Not only have they donated their professional expertise and time to Ray’s Indoor Mountain Bike Park, but also to the Cleveland Metroparks, where volunteers from the Cleveland Area Mountain Bike Association (CAMBA) http://www.camba.us are working in partnership with Cleveland Metroparks at the Ohio & Erie Canal Reservation to construct Cuyahoga County’s first multi-use trail designed for mountain biking. In addition, events such as Walk and Roll Cleveland that highlight Rockefeller Park and the Cultural Gardens, the cycling-related activities planned for the Ingenuity Festival this summer, and the efforts of ClevelandBikes to develop a bike station downtown all contribute to making Cleveland a more attractive place to live and work. And with increasing concerns over sedentary lifestyles and the lack of outdoor activities readily available to young people, a bike park in Midtown could prove to be not just a short-term option for an empty lot, but also a long- term asset for the community. Is the proposed location the best one for the park? Are there currently other viable options for that land? I don’t know that answer.

And for the fixie rider wishing for a Velodrome - there is talk of getting that going here in Cleveland. See the blog http://velodrome4c.blogspot.com/ (http://velodrome4c.blogspot.com/).

If it gets done (the bike park), it needs to be done in such a manner that its not actually built up onto euclid and is using mostly useless land near the tracks. For instance the southeast corner where all the police cars would work or the northwest corner tucked up near the tracks. Prime frontage land shouldnt be grenspace. Midtown has a master plan stick with it, not this dump the land manuver just because somebody will do something with it.

Ray's looks awesome! I've never heard of it, and would have loved a place like that when I was a teenager and into BMX.

Ray's is real close to an area I cover for Sun. Since the reporter for the area Ray's is in is leaving Sun at the end of the month, I will see about doing an article about the place. We're trying to attract young readers to Sun, anyway!

Ray's looks awesome, but it doesn't look like what this development sounds like it's going to be. This Euclid/E. 55th St. bike park is going to be outdoors. What advantage then does it have over any other bike park anywhere else? I'm all for more bike facililies- including all the others you have mentioned, even this sort of bike park in another location. But unless it is considerably more than I am envisioning(I have to admit I'm still falling on the "dirt pile with bumps" side, as jamiec put it so eloquently), I can't yet see that it is appropriate for this location. I know that development has lagged in this portion of Midtown, but isn't this what the Euclid Corridor is supposed to be helping along? This would seem to be a prime spot for some BRT inspired TOD.

And I haven't even broached the topic of the historic buildings they are planning on demoing for this.

My bad on 3 consecutive posts, but wouldn't this sort of thing go over alot better on Euclid Ave on CSU's campus? The city needs to start overlapping uses to get a density of people together instead of continually spreading out amenities like this. It would certainly make CSU a little more enticing to prospective students.

My bad on 3 consecutive posts, but wouldn't this sort of thing go over alot better on Euclid Ave on CSU's campus? The city needs to start overlapping uses to get a density of people together instead of continually spreading out amenities like this. It would certainly make CSU a little more enticing to prospective students.

I agree the bike park is a terrible idea. Something like that would only do well in an area that already has other things to attract people. It is an amenity that can help reinforce an already successful area, but on its own, surrounded by empty lots, it won't have any pull. Why would anyone ride choose to ride their bike on this profoundly depressing site, scarred by a history of abandonment, disinvestment and demolition?

I agree the bike park is a terrible idea. Something like that would only do well in an area that already has other things to attract people. It is an amenity that can help reinforce an already successful area, but on its own, surrounded by empty lots, it won't have any pull.

Ray's Indoor Mtn Bike Park has proven to be very successful in an area surrounded by empty warehouses. Would an INDOOR mtn. bike park concept change your support of this proposal for E. 55th?

For myself, I'd be more apt to be supportive of an indoor facility, especially if it included a variety of related retail uses, like those mentioned earlier by 3231, at street level with exterior exits. Even then, is there a market for two of these facilities so close to each other? What is the advantage of locating this facility on such a potentially prominent piece of land? Is it the highest and best use for the site?

I'm not saying I couldn't warm to the idea, but I'm not seeing it yet.

My bad on 3 consecutive posts, but wouldn't this sort of thing go over alot better on Euclid Ave on CSU's campus? The city needs to start overlapping uses to get a density of people together instead of continually spreading out amenities like this. It would certainly make CSU a little more enticing to prospective students.

W 28 street, great point. CSU or near League Park.

Has anyone contacted Midtown with their ideas?

CSU and League Park are not part of MidTown. And even if they were part of MidTown, I think League Park is in one of the shoddiest parts of Cleveland. I saw a car being "taken apart" across the street on W. 65th near Hough the other day and there was a 16-year old murdered there last August. Sadly, that's only a few blocks from the proposed site.

My bad on 3 consecutive posts, but wouldn't this sort of thing go over alot better on Euclid Ave on CSU's campus? The city needs to start overlapping uses to get a density of people together instead of continually spreading out amenities like this. It would certainly make CSU a little more enticing to prospective students.

W 28 street, great point. CSU or near League Park.

Has anyone contacted Midtown with their ideas?

You're joking about League Park, right?

No. why would you think i'm joking? why wouldn't a project like this work in that area?

It sounds to me as if many people are objecting to the FORM this project will take as well as possible upkeep/maintenance issues.

The recent development of the Skate(board)Plaza as a replacement to the traditional skate park may have some relevance to the proposed Midtown mountain bike park.The idea behind the development of a Skate Plaza is to create an enjoyable atmosphere for skating and hanging out that wouldn't be an eyesore to the rest of the community. I've attached a photo of the first built Skate Plaza which is located in Kettering, OH.

Closer to CSU might be nice, but where might that be? I dunno, it just does not sound like a bad idea. And whose to say the area won't improve. I'm slightly optimistic that the City will start luring business to that area. Either way, it would be nice to see some hearings or 'dog and pony' presentations from MidTown on why they chose that site.

I think that if done correctly, the mtn bike park could be a big hit, and also receive a lot of positive national attention. It would make sense to leave the streetside space open for future development. Then things will start filling in. Right now the area is shockingly blighted, and I see this idea as a pioneering attempt to bring people back there.

p.s. Does anybody actually know if they'll be tearing down any buildings? Has that even been mentioned as a possibility?

MidTown Cleveland Inc. is peddling plans for a $1.1 million mountain-bike park near East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue.An old, abandoned apartment and hotel building sits on the piece MidTown owns. "The city condemned it," Haviland said. "We tried to find developers to come in and redevelop it. But it's just too dilapidated and too far gone."

Also, if you listen to the last segment of the Meet the Bloggers conversation with Jim Haviland, you will hear more details about the proposed mtn. bike park.

Am I wrong in thinking this park would be in pretty close proximity to the Agora (having a hard time picturing the parcel)? Frankly, I don't think this is such a bad place for a bike park, given the lack of current investment in the area and its potential to highlight high visibility street use at multiple hours. Not to mention, I would think this would increase bicycle usage along Euclid ... it would be an additional node of bicycle activity on top of usage around downtown, Theatre District, CSU and University Circle. As has been mentioned by the guv and others, form will play a critical role in how the park is perceived. Personally, I'm excited to see the idea moving forward and thankful that such an amenity is being offered on the Near East side ... it seems that most quality-of-life investments right now are either taking place downtown or on the Near West Side.

Does anyone know whether there are additional bike lanes slated for this area, other than along Euclid. I can't recall the details of the infrastructure plan, except for bike lanes along St. Clair? It seems apt to have lanes along E. 55th between Euclid and St. Clair.

Does anyone know whether there are additional bike lanes slated for this area, other than along Euclid. I can't recall the details of the infrastructure plan, except for bike lanes along St. Clair? It seems apt to have lanes along E. 55th between Euclid and St. Clair.

There are some neighborhood connector routes proposed.You can checkout the whole plan here:http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/cwp/bike/cbmp0207.pdf (http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/cwp/bike/cbmp0207.pdf)

Thanks Musky. I was actually referring to the capital improvements plan ... couldn't remember if anything had been allocated to bike lanes along E. 55th particularly. But there has ... $25,000 in 2009 for bike lanes from Euclid and E. 55th to the Lakefront and 55th (which in turn will connect directly to the Lakefront Bikeway). Personally, that sweetens this site for me ... with bike traffic coming from the north and east/west, this has the potential to be a very high visibility center of bicycle activity that may also benefit branding-wise from its history as an important transportation center ... yet another opportunity for Cleveland to show how we are building off of our history to create a truly livable city. IMHO, that's a pretty high-return use of land.

Whether people will actually use the bike park, however, is highly questionable. Certainly now, there's little to draw anyone there apart from its location halfway between University Circle and Downtown. Maybe when the ECP bike lanes are done, but again -- highly speculative. Knocking down historic buildings for such an unproven use seems wasteful to me. I might be convinced by some kind of market analysis, but even then, as others have noted, there is already an abundance of vacant land on Euclid, Superior, Payne, Carnegie, Chester, etc etc etc.

Knocking down historic buildings for such an unproven use seems wasteful to me. I might be convinced by some kind of market analysis, but even then, as others have noted, there is already an abundance of vacant land on Euclid, Superior, Payne, Carnegie, Chester, etc etc etc.

Would it be impossible to turn some of those historic buildings into a bike or repair shop? (which would obviously compliment the park). Perfect location with minimal renovations needed, plus an expected amount of business.

the buildings that are in question, I think, will require a large amount of renovation just to be habitable for any use. That is the problem that Midtown is having. But while I understand their frustration, it seems to me that they are looking to demo right when the market may be changing enough to justify major rehab because of things like the EC and the increased interest in development in Midtown and the area around CC.

I'm leaning towards the negative side on the bike park for Midtown. To me it does seem like this would be a poor use of this particular site. A bike park might however be fantastic in the Flats somewhere in conjuction with the towpath trail.

^ The concept is weird to me. I'm a road biker, so I'm not so familiar with mountain biking. I thought mountain biking culture was all about the mountains like in Portland and Colorado. Are mountain bikers now bring their style of sport to urban areas like BMX and skateboarders?

The one thing that could make this cool, especially with how close it is to the Agora, is to sort of make it an alternative sports neighborhood. You could have the mountain biking park and maybe add-on parks for other related sports. Then the entire area could attract sport-related retailers, hotels, eateries and other businesses. The big issue is, the park HAS to be kick ass, otherwise it won't make a difference. They've got to create an environment that when people from around the country who like this sort of thing think Cleveland, they think of this park. In that regard, it can't be like the lil' baby parks popping up all over.

"The one thing that could make this cool, especially with how close it is to the Agora, is to sort of make it an alternative sports neighborhood. You could have the mountain biking park and maybe add-on parks for other related sports. Then the entire area could attract sport-related retailers, hotels, eateries and other businesses. The big issue is, the park HAS to be kick ass, otherwise it won't make a difference. They've got to create an environment that when people from around the country who like this sort of thing think Cleveland, they think of this park. In that regard, it can't be like the lil' baby parks popping up all over."

Agreed 100 percent Jamiec!!!!

Done the right way, this could attract a ton of positive national attention.

I just heard today that the city's next comprehensive plan, now being finalized, will recommend an urban farm at E. 59th-ish between Chester and Euclid. It's a large vacant parcel. It would be similar to what Boston does with urban farming -- a program where dozens of local youth are employed to maintain the farm and harvest and sell the food on site, with the surplus going to local food banks. I love this idea, as it would create a considerable number jobs in Midtown (unlike a bike park), and would use land that is already vacant, rather than tearing down what little remains of our architectural heritage in this corridor.

another disappointment for midtown....cows, pigs, and chickens, corn????????????...i seen enough of those growing up working on farms in Ashtabula county....not in Midtown Cleveland...wtf is going on with these people. what we'll have John Deeres and Massey Fergusons rollin down the new euclid corridor? these people hafta be playing some joke.

another disappointment for midtown....cows, pigs, and chickens, corn????????????...i seen enough of those growing up working on farms in Ashtabula county....not in Midtown Cleveland...wtf is going on with these people. what we'll have John Deeres and Massey Fergusons rollin down the new euclid corridor? these people hafta be playing some joke.

I don't know. I think it can go either way. Creating a greater appreciation of food and farming in Cleveland could also be a gateway for eventually working and understanding the culture outside of our city in the rest of Ohio, where farming is certainly an important part of the state's identity.

Not to mention the added benefits should peak oil hit and gas prices go up to $5 and $6 a gallon.. then you'll be begging for urban farms!

I don't have a problem with some urban farms. Nice to have some re-localization of food production, and gets kids to get their hands dirty doing something production. I do have a problem with us rapidly paving over some of the best farmland in the world just beyond the urban fringe. But's that for another thread....

ughh....This is the spin off development that our $230 million investment is going to bring us? I hope that these uses are conceived as temporary uses pending redevelopment, otherwise I'm rapidly becoming disgusted with the lack of vision for this corridor. And yeah, urban farming won't have any practical effect on price or production.

Hey, I suggested a few years back that this area be developed into a massive park, modeled after the lovely Central Park. With a mountain bike park and an urban garden connected, this is what I consider joint development and a great way to make a dead-zone more active. Instead of criticizing this area, we should be praising ANY and I mean ***ANY*** development near in this area. And if you don't praise the urban garden or bike park, please do tell me what development we have seen in this area in the last 40 years?

^ I am on the same boat as you, X, but I don't think that the sudden announcement of two parks means a bleek future. If you're thinking that we may end up with 50 parks (which won't happen), then we could start worrying. I think these two parks will spur development in the area. Right now it's a very creepy area and the bike park will pay a compliment to the Euclid Corridor. If I was to ride from downtown to UC (which I intend to do), I would be pedaling to metal around E. 55th St. because there is less good than bad in that area right now. Having other people present at parks will create a sense of safety in the area. No longer will the only liveliness in that part of MidTown be at Galucci's picnic benches out front.

^With so much area available to redevelop, how would whats being discussed here (maybe not the densest, or most usual form of development) prevent additional development. If anything it would provide new sparks for unique types of urban development. And as far as vision goes, what types of development, exactly, are to be expected? Why not try something different. It's not like developers are just clammoring over one another to quickly redevelop this land, anyway. Let this start as a nidus, perhaps we start a Gravity/X Games type distict. Hell, who knows.

It would be a few parcels to aquire, and demolition of a uninspired building. This is what I picture how a bike park could work along the line. Construction along the ECP should be built to urban context standards. It takes a difficult shaped lot and maxes it out. Back parts an expert zone, front beginer. Mixed use building frontage, some type of bike shop with living space up top (yellow). Additionaly they could have indoor part much like that west side location (light blue). More reseidential buildings to fill out other parts of the block (brown).

Is this from the Froggy Eats Pigs Ass building? Oh well. I saw that picture of how Brooklynesque it was there with the midrise buildings back in the day. Could it be that we torture ourselves with visions of the past?

It was just and idea I had how a bike park could better work. I have a prefrence for something like I quickly drew up located on the northwest corner. The article states the bike park plan to be in the northeast corner. The froggy eats pigs ass building is the building in question to be demo'ed and the planned location of the bike park.

Business WeekSmall Biz March 22, 2007, 12:29PM EST text size: TTThe Mall Goes GreenChicago's Green Exchange will be the first shopping center in the U.S. for environmentally responsible and socially conscious businesses

by Jeffrey Gangemi

Marilyn Jones was a green-business pioneer. Since 1973, the owner and president of Chicago-based Consolidated Printing has been using soy-based inks and recycled paper in her sheet-fed and digital-printing business. And while she admits that in the beginning it wasn't easy being green, Jones says the past three or four years have brought tremendous attention and attracted numerous fellow practitioners to green and socially responsible business.

So many new practitioners have emerged, in fact, that the first mall in the U.S. dedicated to green and socially responsible businesses—Green Exchange—will open in Chicago early in 2008. When it does, Consolidated Printing will be one of its original tenants.

Jones is ecstatic that Chicago will soon have a place where "greenies" can help each other expand their businesses—and attract a critical mass of consumers. "A lot of people are unaware of how many things they can actually purchase that are green," Jones explains. "And it's certainly going to give [small green businesses] visibility on a grander scale than they could achieve as an independent."Plum Location

The 250,000-square-feet building will hold about 100 vendors. And not just retail outfits. Besides Consolidated Printing, Green Exchange will house an organic restaurant and café, a sustainable furniture store, a green building supply company, an eco-friendly printer, architects and designers focused on sustainability, an environmentally-friendly clothing company, a car-sharing service, a bike shop, and more. And the location is plum: an estimated 350,000 motorists pass the site each day.

The development is capitalizing on a booming market for all things green, organic, and socially responsible (see BusinessWeek.com, Summer 2006, "Do You Need to be Green?"). The Organic Trade Assn. says sales of organic foods are expected to expand by 20% annually over the next few years, and the market for green residential construction and building materials, not counting residential remodeling, is forecast to grow from $7.2 billion in 2005 to between $19 billion and $38 billion in 2010, according to the National Association of Home Builders and McGraw-Hill Construction.

By providing a concentration of green and socially responsible businesses, Green Exchange is helping small green providers get bigger and attract more business in an environment that reinforces their ideals. "Since we have this mission, having a place to rent that goes along with that mission is really important," says Ori Sivan, president of Greenmaker Supply, a Chicago-based building materials supply company that will be a Green Exchange tenant.Taking the LEED

It's also making it easier for individual small businesses to help each other. Future tenants are working together on "a collaborative marketing and support network," an online community that provides an e-commerce platform, and a number of events that will eventually be planned for the space. And one of the tenants, Greenmaker Supply, is offering to help each tenant build out their own space using green materials.

Once completed, Green Exchange won't only be a home for green businesses, it will be the product of one. Baum Development, a 40-employee Chicago-based real estate development company, is developing the site according to LEED (Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design) standards, which is a rating system developed by the U.S. Green Building Council.

The LEED Green Building Rating System provides benchmarks for the design, construction, and operation of green buildings by recognizing performance in five key areas: sustainable site development, water savings, energy efficiency, materials selection, and indoor environmental quality.The Right Mix

Hartshorne & Plunkard, the construction company carrying out the building project, along with Baum, is taking care to preserve many of the historical features of the building. At the same time, the team will also comply with LEED standards when renovating by incorporating an energy-efficient environment, a green roof, clean air quality, a landscaped courtyard, bike rooms, meeting and event space, priority hybrid parking, and on-site parking.

Of course, an entirely green project presents its share of challenges. Since the building will only be open to tenants who are doing some kind of ecologically responsible business, the potential pool is smaller than normal. But therein lies the project's uniqueness. "Our biggest challenge is finding the tenant mix, but that will also be what will make it fantastic," says David Baum, co-owner of Baum Development.

If successful, the idea of a green mall could soon spread to other cities. If it does, then the next generation of mall rats just might be helping to save the world when they shop.

The Cuyahoga County Community Mental Health Board plans to construct a new headquarters building in the Midtown neighborhood.

The three-story headquarters would sit on a now-vacant piece of land on the north side of Euclid Avenue between East 69th and East 79th streets. Mental health board chairwoman Bonita Caplan said the building likely will cost between $10 million and $13 million.

Paul Volpe of City Architecture is designing the building, which Ms. Caplan said would be built to green building standards.

The mental health board plans, finances and monitors mental health programs in the county. It has 64 employees and a $120 million annual budget that comes from state and federal Medicaid funds and from a county appropriation.

Ms. Caplan told the board’s executive committee a new building would give the agency “better space for the same money” it now pays to rent three floors of a building at West 25th Street and Detroit Avenue. She said the agency has talked about a new building before but is moving now of current low interest rates.

Robert Carson, a member of the agency’s board of governors, said owning a building will allow the mental health board to build equity, and that a building along the Euclid Corridor transit line will boost the Midtown neighborhood.

Other tenants in tow

James Haviland, executive director of MidTown Cleveland Inc., an economic development organization that supports Midtown, is enthused about prospects for the new structure.

Plans are for a 45,000-square-foot building, with the mental health board taking about 30,000 square feet and leasing the rest.

It already has two tenants lined up: NAMI of Greater Cleveland, an advocacy organization for the mentally ill affiliated with the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and Cuyahoga Tapestry System of Care, an organization that serves children with serious emotional needs. The two organizations currently lease space from the mental health board.

Ms. Caplan said the agency is exploring financing possibilities, including private financing or bonding through the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority. The goal, she said, is for the agency to be in the new building by fall 2008, when the Euclid Corridor work is expected to be completed.

The mental health board is unveiling its plan for the new building on Wednesday, June 13, at Dunham Tavern, which would be the agency’s next-door neighbor.

Great, now Volpe can piss all over Euclid Avenue. How does this guy keep getting work? Oh wait, I know, his unsettling connections with the city. Prepare for EIFS cornices and fake columns to mimic the "context" of Aldi's and that church.

Hopefully, it'll mean that we can start to talk seriously about building on those parking lots on the north side of Detroit... the sad side of the gateway to the West Side! Based on what we've seen on the other end of the W. 25th Street business corridor, old buildings of that size have a nice little niche market for office and residential tenants. With the other projects in the works on that stretch, it seems like a no brainer.

I'll hold judgment on the building's desing on Euclid Avenue until after I've seen it. If it's adhering to the new zoning overlay, they'll have to have activity on the sidewalk frontage and parking in the rear.

Silver Line’s impact taking shape As first stops near completion, construction deals rise right along with property values

“We wouldn’t be doing this if the Euclid Corridor project were not being done,” said Scott Garson, a principal in Victory Lofts LLC, which will bring 102 loft apartments to the Victory Building at East 70th Street.

By JAY MILLER

4:30 am, August 6, 2007

With the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s Silver Line bus-rapid transit little more than a year from its first paying run, the expectation that the new line would stimulate economic development slowly is becoming a reality.

No boulevard in Northeast Ohio is currently in as deep despair as Euclid Avenue. But with the road construction beginning to show signs of new transit stops, “people have a visual clue as to what Euclid Avenue will be,” said Joseph Marinucci, president and CEO of the Downtown Cleveland Alliance.

This is especially the case in Midtown, where new deals and transactions are being made at a steady pace and where property values are rising in anticipation of future development opportunities.

A $10 million transformation of a former office building into 102 loft apartments is under way at the Victory Building at East 70th Street, the first new, multi-family residential building along Euclid.

Across the street, the Cuyahoga County Community Mental Health Board has plans for a $10 million headquarters building.

Local 18 of the International Union of Operating Engineers has bought the parcel at the southwest corner of Euclid and East 36th Street for an expansion of its headquarters that sit on the lot behind on Prospect Avenue.

Both the land purchased by the operating engineers and a second parcel a block away have changed hands at above-market prices.

With this activity, the redevelopment of upper Euclid is beginning to meet the economic development goals of the civic leaders who championed the $200 million bus-rapid transit line along the city’s main thoroughfare.

This kind of transit-oriented development is part of what RTA touted when it pushed local and federal officials to fund the Silver Line project. The concept is built on the notion that there is a desire among some people to live and work in a neighborhood that harks back to the time before cars were so ubiquitous, when people sought to live and businesses sought to cluster around bus and streetcar stops.

Moving down the line

Midtown took particular notice of the coming of the line and in 2004 began pushing, successfully, for a new zoning code for the area that encourages development around the Silver Line stations.

James Haviland, executive director of MidTown Cleveland Inc., a community development organization, said his group’s neighborhood master plan and the new zoning code approved more than a year ago by the city of Cleveland gives developers some sense of how the corridor will look in the years ahead. It favors residential development and buildings with a higher density — of three stories or more clustered around the transit stops. The new zoning, for example, won’t allow single-story fast food restaurants or used car lots to expand their grip on Euclid in Midtown.

Indeed, some of the current development interest focuses around stops on the RTA’s Silver Line. Both the mental health board building and the Victory lofts are a few steps away from a transit stop at East 71st Street.

Scott Garson, a principal in Victory Lofts LLC and a real estate broker with NAI Daus, said the $10 million Victory Lofts will be carved out of a four-story former office building that he and his development partners purchased in December 2005 for $2.1 million.

Mr. Garson believes the lofts will be attractive to University Circle-area students and workers who want to avoid that congested area’s traffic and parking problems.

The units all run about 1,000 square feet in a single open space, save for the kitchen and bathroom.

“We wouldn’t be doing this if the Euclid Corridor project were not being done,” Mr. Garson said. “There is a (transit) stop right in front of the building.”

The Cuyahoga County Community Mental Health Board has plans to build a new headquarters building on a now-vacant piece of land on the north side of Euclid Avenue between East 69th and East 79th streets. The board will decide, perhaps as soon as this week, whether to go ahead with the project.

The three-story headquarters will cost about $10 million, said board chief executive officer William Denihan, and bring 75 employees, including those of related organizations including NAMI of Greater Cleveland, an advocacy organization for the mentally ill affiliated with the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and the Cuyahoga Tapestry System of Care, an organization that serves children with serious emotional needs. The two organizations currently lease space from the mental health board.

Farther west on Euclid, the operating engineers union in March of this year paid $1.3 million for the land at 3600 Euclid for its headquarters expansion. Business manager Patrick Sink did not return four calls made to talk about the expansion plans.

“We’re seeing an increase in real estate values and an increase in serious interest by investors who have an interest in making an investment,” Mr. Haviland said.

Another property, the Stockbridge Apartments at 3328 Euclid changed hands in January for $2.3 million. The property, purchased by the Sandlow Family Trust of Los Angeles, had a market value of $871,800, according to county tax records.

On pace for progress

In addition, two projects begun last year are moving to fruition.

Developer Richard Pace is completing the renovation of the former Baker Motor Car Co. building at 7100 Euclid into an office building for small technology-oriented businesses and Heartland Developers Inc., and the Cowden Humphrey Co. law firm are renovating a 50,000-square-foot office building at 4600 Euclid for use by the law firm and other tenants.

RTA also is doing what it can. It is offering two properties it owns in Midtown — at 4601 Euclid and 6611 Euclid — for sale for future development. A spokesman said neither of these properties has yet been sold.

The concept is built on the notion that there is a desire among some people to live and work in a neighborhood that harks back to the time before cars were so ubiquitous, when people sought to live and businesses sought to cluster around bus and streetcar stops.

Ugh. I know I whine about the PD all the time, but this was a particularly dense observation, IMHO. Transit-oriented development and mixed use are not some throwback to 1950s America ... they are and have been leading indicators of vibrant neighborhoods in urban areas nationwide. Even within Northeast Ohio, where we have often dropped the ball in terms of urban density, neighborhoods like the Gold Coast, Shaker Square, Cedar Lee, Coventry, the Warehouse District, E. 4th St., Little Italy, etc. highlight that transit proximity and mixed-use density are preferred by LOTS of people. I hate our newspaper :x

The concept is built on the notion that there is a desire among some people to live and work in a neighborhood that harks back to the time before cars were so ubiquitous, when people sought to live and businesses sought to cluster around bus and streetcar stops.

Sometimes I'd like to think we (Greater Clevelanders) say stuff like that to make ourselves feel good that we're really not behind the times and falling farther behind virtually every progressive, dynamic metro area in the U.S. and world. In reality, it's just sheer ignorance and reveals that some people just don't travel very much. And if they do travel, they must be doing it with their eyes closed.

Yeah. Not to go off on a PD rant, but I'm so sick of the international section not having so much INTERNATIONAL news. I mean, it's a big world we live in. Why not give us news outside of Cleveland/Ohio?? How much do you think it would cost to start up a new newspaper that actually covers the news objectively and with some intelligent, articulate writing that isn't meant to cater to a friggin 3 year old? Seriously. I'm wondering.

Even though NYC drives me crazy, I will never be able to replace the NY Times. I wish Cleveland had a paper more like that.

Yeah. Not to go off on a PD rant, but I'm so sick of the international section not having so much INTERNATIONAL news. I mean, it's a big world we live in. Why not give us news outside of Cleveland/Ohio?? How much do you think it would cost to start up a new newspaper that actually covers the news objectively and with some intelligent, articulate writing that isn't meant to cater to a friggin 3 year old? Seriously. I'm wondering.

Even though NYC drives me crazy, I will never be able to replace the NY Times. I wish Cleveland had a paper more like that.

Okay. Off-topic rant done.

Boogie Down...inhale......no slowly blow it out! LOL

Valid points. Have you fired off an email, fax or letter to the PD that expresses your frustration?

I would write to the paper's "Reader's Representative". It seems like that is what he is there for.

Frqntflyr, I think that the Victory Lofts are going to be in the building next door to the one you marked. That is a four story building, as they indicate in the article. The one you marked is only two.

Frqntflyr, I think that the Victory Lofts are going to be in the building next door to the one you marked. That is a four story building, as they indicate in the article. The one you marked is only two.

Jesus, $480,000 a month? 22 months out of that place and you have the $10,000,000 for the new building. Doesn't make much sense to me, but it is Cuyahoga County.Wonder if this has any affect on the United Trust Building rehab.

I read a little while ago that the city designated an area of Midtown "The Art Quarter". I was just wondering if anyone has heard any new developments in line with this designation? Or is this only a name change on paper so far?

I read a little while ago that the city designated an area of Midtown "The Art Quarter". I was just wondering if anyone has heard any new developments in line with this designation? Or is this only a name change on paper so far?

Group gets a handle on art hauntsRenaming area underscores trendMonday, April 16, 2007Jesse TinsleyPlain Dealer Reporter

A Cleveland neighborhood is gradually becoming an art district - one of those funky, vibrant enclaves of artists' studios, galleries, bistros and live-work spaces that are spreading all over the country....

Biotechnology company Analiza Inc. will move to Midtown Cleveland from Solon in October.

The company, which analyzes potential drugs for pharmaceutical companies, signed a lease to take 6,000 square feet in the Tyler Elevator Building, said Mark Stratton, vice president of marketing and business development. The extra 2,500 square feet will allow Analiza to add a few people to its staff of about 12, he said.

Its cancer diagnostics subsidiary, AnalizaDx LLC, will move with it. The unit analyzes the structure of proteins in bodily fluids to diagnose cancer.

Cleveland is an old-school manufacturing town. What we know how to do is take raw materials and make something out of them, a fact that continually resurfaces as neighborhoods are reborn - not just in the old warehouse and factory space we find new ways to use, but even sometimes in the ways we find to use it.

The much collected artist Tom Balbo recently announced the establishment of the Morgan Art of Papermaking Conservatory and Education Foundation, which will be known as the Morgan Conservatory, for short. A graduate of Baldwin-Wallace College and Syracuse University, Balbo began his career as a potter and print-maker - media he continues to pursue - but over the last 25 years his interests have increasingly turned toward paper-making, casting and paper-based sculpture. He's worked mostly in Cleveland and maintains a gallery on Hough Avenue. He's in the process of equipping and moving into the space that will be the Morgan Conservatory, a former machine shop with 15,000 square feet of industrial space at 1754 E. 47th St., between Commerce and Payne.

When it's all up and running, the new organization will have three directions of programming: a kind of apprenticeship program that teaches and certifies people in the making of paper; an art lab, which Balbo says will bring artists of various disciplines to work in residency to make paper-based work, which could be anything from sculpture to cast paper to print-making; and a book arts program, which will bring master book-makers and printers to teach a range of skills and techniques involved in the hand-making of books, from binding structures to printing with letter press machines. The organization will also distribute fine, handmade papers. A small gallery will show the paper-making process, examples of papers and the work of artists.

In addition to parking, there's space on location where Balbo plans to grow kozo, a plant whose fiber is used to make one of the many Japanese styles known as "rice" paper.

The Morgan Conservatory plans to operate in conjunction with nearby printmaking cooperative Zygote Press, which should make the neighborhood even more noteworthy as a destination for printmakers and other artists. Details of the relationship are not yet worked out, but the two organizations plan to work together on visiting artist programs, as well as gallery shows and openings.

Balbo says the Morgan Conservatory established its 501 (c) (3) nonprofit status in August and is now raising funds. The space is under renovation, but he's planning a short workshop to take place in January, and hopes to have a residency program underway by summer 2008.

They overlap. If I recall correctly, The QuARTer stretches from Payne to St. Clair between E. 17th and E. 40th. The design district, I believe runs from E. 9th (or maybe E. 12th) to E. 36th and from Euclid to the lake. I could be a little off on these boundaries, but I believe the main gap is that the District of Design doesn't cover the live-work stretch along E. 40th between Superior and Chester and possibly not all of Tyler Village.

For one thing, neither the QuARTer effort nor the District of Design are based primarily in Midtown. The QuARTer isn't in Midtown at all ... it's inside the downtown Quadrangle district and the St. Clair Superior service area. The District of Design is largely in the downtown Theater, Financial, Civic and Quadrangle districts and the St. Clair Superior Service area, with a relatively small sliver (about E. 26th to E. 36th between Euclid and Payne) in Midtown.

nice article guv. cool news. the morgan conservatory is a type of niche arts organization that could really be a big part of making midtown's nut. i am thinking of the cma's painting restoration project too. these specialties will bring in creative people from all over the world.

One of the more amazing transformations of a building that I was privy to during my time as “Tech Czar,” was the Baker Electric Building (also known as the Carpenter Press Building) located on Euclid Avenue and E. 71st. The building was designed by Frank B. Meade and built in 1910 for the Baker Electric Motor Car (quick note – Cleveland was a leader in electric car technology nearly a hundred years ago). Baker Electric was founded and operated by Walter C. Baker a tech pioneer and memorable entrepreneur. The building was used as car showroom. Over the years at has been the site of many companies most notably as the home of Carpenter Press.

A real estate partnership including Cumberland Development, New Era Builders and Ariel Ventures bought the building in June of 2006. The new owners understood that there was a shortage of incubator and post-incubator space for technology based companies. (Quick side note – I was trying to get the City of Cleveland to buy Carpenter Press Building at the same the new owners were reviewing the sight. I wanted to create a biotech incubator and R&D facility.) The new owners immediately began the renovation of the 52,000 square foot facility. It was totally gutted, a new parking lot was put in, back-up power and the original car showroom has been brought back to as original state as it can be. The goal was to create an environment to develop over a 100 new tech jobs in the Midtown corridor.

Current tenants now include:

· Bunge BIPHOR – an innovator of pigments and coatings· Volcano Corporation – a company that develops intravascular ultrasound technology· Diagnostic Hybrids – an R&D company that specializes in molecular diagnostic kits· iNetworks – a Pittsburgh-based venture capital group· Cumberland Development – owner and real estate development company

There is only 20,000 square feet available in the building and it is estimated that it will be fully-occupied by the end of summer. The project cost almost $7.1 million and was supported New Markets Tax Credits and $1.0 million from the County’s Brownfield Redevelopment Fund. Unfortunately, no City participation. The building is now listed on the National Register for Historic Places and was redeveloped utilizing green and sustainable design practices and will receive a LEED Silver Certification.

This building’s proximity to University Circle (and especially the Cleveland Clinic) and Downtown will make this a very attractive building for new tech companies. Of course, having a venture capital group on site is always a provocative development. I have always been proud of this development, especially given its Midtown location. Of course, more development is necessary in the Midtown area but my sources in the real estate area are detailing to me that there is significant real estate speculation in the Midtown area. This could be a fantastic corridor (now with the RTA Silver Line nearing completion) for tech and biotech. Stay tuned for new developments and congrats to all those involved in the Baker Electric Building.

Does anyone know the story with the ratty old vacant supermarket building on Euclid Ave. in front of the Playhouse parking lot? County Auditor site says its owned (and has been owned for a long time) by Si Harb. That thing ain't pretty. I believe it's the last conspicuous piece of blight between E79th and University Circle (putting aside the fast food places. And the new suburban drug store at 79th. And the Clinic. And all the poorly sited non-profits across from the Clinic.)

I forgot the name, but there was supposed to be a building near Euclid and E. 30th that was going to be re-habbed from office to apartment. It is on of the bigger buildings in that part of MidTown.. it was announced last year and then nothing was ever spoke of it again. Updates? Scrapped idea? It wasn't listed as a project in the PD's fabulous Euclid article on Sunday either.

Developer Fred Geis has teamed up with the Coyne and Asher families to buy 6 acres in Midtown Cleveland for a project that could include shopping and offices or homes.

The deal, which closed in early May but was announced today, involved property at 6700 Euclid Ave., across from the Dunham Tavern Museum. The seller was Richard Cohen. Local Grubb & Ellis broker Terry Coyne represented his family and the other buyers in the transaction....

The MidTown Cleveland economic development group had its annual meeting last week. I wasn't on the guest list, but the folks who do MidTown's PR were nice enough to pass along some video and other materials about the event...

For anyone interested, there is a free MidTown Cleveland Security Fair going on at Applied Technologies (E. 36th & Euclid) going on right now until 1:00. Lunch is said to be provided. I'm about to walk over there myself.

I was just at the midtown bloc party in the courtyard behind 4500 Euclid today, they had a rather impressive array of food, some music, and a bunch of health related booths set up inside. There seemed to be a fair amount of people attending.

I am so pumped LaConti isnt selling out to live nation! I hate those pigs... Ive partnered with some buddies to produce shows in Columbus at independent venues such as Veterans Memorial etc and loved it, came up here to Cleveland and was looking at a few venues all of which (aside from agora) are coroprate owned and dont like dealing with "small fries". Stick it to em'! Still trying to get Bloc Parties booking party to get off his live nation crack-like addiction and let me do a show with them... p.s. just so you know how good this is for the CLEVELAND music scene. Live nation likes to put on shows only that go to multiple venues (all belonging to them of course) and often times shut down independent producers trying to bring in different acts to town for just one performance in one city. Ill put it this way, if your pop and the CEO has heard of you, green light. Anything off the beatin' path... good luck.

This could go into several different threads, hope I have the most appropriate one...

There has been a lot of talk about developing CC/UH-related health and tech all up and down Euclid, particularly in the Midtown area. We've got a 24-hr transit line there and a setup that encourages pedestrians over cars. Sounds ideal for mass residential, and for entertainment. Also sounds underutilized if surrounded by secured 9-5 offices. Meanwhile residential projects great and small are lining up for the 8 lane sub-freeway that is Chester. I suggest a switcheroo.

The Agora theater could anchor a killer new neighborhood for young people. It consistently draws people who are seeing the inner city for the first time and seem to like it. With another venue or two (smaller ones) and some apartment construction, this could be a showpiece neighborhood. Have a musicians' village all living together and sharing ideas. It capitalizes on the city's musical heritage and replants it for another generation. Chester and Carnegie are car-oriented and better suited for what amounts to modern light industry. Euclid should be inviting and alive with people. The core attraction is already there.

Cleveland considers a cluster. Health care? Technology? And can it be done?June 2, 2009 by Chris Seper Filed under Feature, Innovation, Top Story

(http://www.medcitynews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/euclid_ave_thhedferringer_flickr-300x201.jpg)Euclid Avenue: A strip of opportunities and challenges

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Members of the health-care industry, public officials and business interests have launched a study to see whether space between the edge of Cleveland’s downtown and the hospital-heavy University Circle neighborhood could be a hub for medical business.

The study will look mostly at the “HealthLine” — a three-mile stretch of Euclid Avenue bookended by a neighborhood that includes Cleveland State University, St. Vincent Charity Hospital and Cuyahoga Community College on one end, and by Cleveland Clinic, University Hospitals Case Medical Center and Case Western Reserve University on the other. The study also will examine the areas around those end points and portions of E. 55th Street next to Euclid Avenue, as well as the role of the Port of Cleveland.

Angelou Economics, a Texas economic consulting firm, started the study in mid-May to determine whether that area could create a focused biomedical cluster in the tradition of North Carolina’s Research Triangle Park, or whether it should be broadened to include all innovation and technology companies.

The firm’s final recommendations and an implementation strategy should be done by September, said Jim Colson, the company’s chief operating officer.

An array of organizations — city and county governments, the Cleveland Port Authority, biotech advocate BioEnterprise and the non-profit Cleveland Foundation — are participating in and funding the study. BioEnterprise President Baiju Shah said the region already has created a vibrant collection of businesses and medical research that has yet to reach its potential.“We’ve struggled to create the energy because we have sprawl,” Shah said. “We have companies hidden away in different parts of our region that aren’t easily connected with one another or the [medical] institutions.”

Clustering can be geographic or by interests. Michigan, for example, ”clustered” its top medical universities — though they’re hours apart from one another — to better collaborate on and spin off commercially viable medical research. Akron launched a biomedical corridor project based on its concentration of polymer, engineering and orthopaedic research, among other things.

Euclid Avenue has its mix of opportunities and challenges. Cleveland Clinic gradually has expanded along Euclid Avenue anyway — it is in negotiations to purchase the Cleveland Playhouse, one of the large masses of well-kept properties on the street. However, many patches of the street are peppered with abandoned and toxic properties that could make a true “connection” between sides difficult.

Plus, some research say it’s less clear whether clusters can help increase jobs as much as they aid businesses that join the clusters. Sometimes, jobs created by businesses in a cluster are created somewhere else.

Shah said the health services around University Circle have outgrown that area. “How do we create a vision for what happens in 10 years that really creates a health corridor around the two major poles [University Circle and Cleveland State-area] and that takes advantage of the transformation of the HealthLine?” he asked.

Shah said the health services around University Circle have outgrown that area.

This commonly held view pretty much sums up the problems with UC land use. The Clinic is surrounded by many acres of surface parking and plans all new buildings with generous front lawns. UH, as I understand it, is creating a new park on Euclid to bank a large empty lot. These institutions already own more land than they know what do with.

Thumbs up to a cluster of property tax paying developments centered around medical technology. Thumbs down for treating midtown as just an extension of undisciplined institutional sprawl.

^^ah yes, I remember now!...it's been in the works for a while. It is in fact going to be a grocery store. I had a conversation with someone "in the know" and it was referred to as "middle eastern." I believe the eastside Mosque is nearby, correct?. BIG addition to the area.

East 83rd and Carnegie LLC, owner and Ali Lofti Fard, appeal to construct a one-story grocery store and restaurant, proposed to be situated on consolidated parcels located in split zoning between General Retail Business and Multi-Family Districts on the west side of East 83rd Street at 2040 East 83rd Street; subject to the limitations of Section 337.08, a grocery store is not permitted in a Multi-Family District; and contrary to Sections 352.10 and 352.11, a 4’ wide frontage landscape strip is proposed where a 6’ width is required along the parking lot on East 83rd Street and Section 325.03 stipulates that parking spaces shall be at least 180 square feet and accessory uses shall be no less than 10’ from the side street line according to Section 357.05 of the Codified Ordinances. (Filed 5-15-07)

Half The World Is HereAn Economics Student Turned Butcher Serves His Own Growing Community, And Many OthersBy Jo Steigerwald

Once a week, Mr. Ali Lotfi-fard, an Iranian-born Muslim, drives to Bristol, Ohio, just a jog south of Middlefield. His destination: a slaughterhouse where Amish workers will help him corral the beef on the hoof needed for the week. Mr. Lotfi-fard is a halal butcher, whose store at West 95th and Detroit packs the world between its walls.

Tinned mackerel from Izola, Slovenia. Rice from Pakistan; rice from Thailand. Moroccan sardines. Feta cheese: French, Bulgarian, Romanian. The most fragrant green tea with jasmine from Karachi, Pakistan. Goya-brand beans and recaito. Dettol, the antiseptic cleaner mentioned in seemingly every contemporary novel from India. A phalanx of silver and gold hookah pipes. Henna hair dye. Tea samovars and china; liters of Pepsi, boxes of corn flakes. And during Ramadan, the cases of medjool dates are stacked as high as a man.

Want to know how a city grows? Watch what it eats. Cleveland, long a bastion of pierogis (or piroshke or pyrohy, depending on which side of what Eastern European border your great-grandmother traveled from), is now enriched by a conflation of Arabic, African and Asian tastes - all of whom have among them the commonality of a fast-growing religion, Islam.

Mr. Lotfi-fard (whom everyone calls Ali) and his wife, Paradise, immigrated to the United States in 1977. They came to escape the revolution brewing in Iran that ended with the overthrow of the reigning monarchy and the establishment of an Islamic republic under the Ayatollah Khomeini. Ali studied economics at Case Western Reserve University and Cleveland State, worked several jobs and raised a family of four sons with Paradise.

How did a student of economics become a butcher? Market demand. There was a dearth of halal butchers in Cleveland in the late '70s, and so Ali started Halal Meats to provide acceptable meat for his family. Then for friends. Finally, he and Paradise opened the store at 9418 Detroit in 1983.

"Halal means lawful, or permitted," explains Ali. "One takes the life of an animal with intention and respect in a humane way, and one invokes the name of God. A halal butcher must be intentional; must be humane; and must invoke the name of God." Like the kosher designation for Jews, halal signifies the divine present in the everyday, where God is in the details. Unlike kosher standards, a halal certification does not require its butchers to be overseen by a mosque official; it is enough that they are Muslim.

In addition to the beef from Bristol, Halal Meats has goat, lamb and chicken, whole or cut to order. His assistant, Noor Najmiah, who sports a pompadour that would make a rockabilly front man proud, travels to Detroit once a week for halal chicken, bakery and most of the store's grocery stock. "It used to be that the distributors delivered to us," says Paradise. "But since the price of gas is so high, we must go to them. Most of what is in the store we get from Detroit, which has a large Arabic community."

According to the American Religious Identity Survey, conducted in 2001 by the City University of New York with a sample size of 50,000 Americans, Islam ranks third on the list of the top 20 religions in the United States. Since 1980, the proportion of mosques founded in this country had increased by 62 percent, according to a 2001 study from the Hartford Institute for Religious Research.

Of course, Muslims have come to the United States for much longer than the past 30 years. Paradise tells this story: "About 15 years ago, there was an old Iranian man who came to the store, maybe twice. He had come to this country long ago, probably in the early 1900s. The second time he was in the store, he brought some things his mother gave him to take with him to America. He said his family wasn't interested in them and he wanted to give them to me. There was a magnificent prayer rug, a string of prayer beads, and two books. The one book was the Koran. He didn't know what the other book was, he couldn't read it." It was a cookbook. Humanity needs nourishment, physical and spiritual.

A prohibition on eating pork is part of the Muslim faith, as are drinking alcohol and gambling, which is one reason Ali won't sell beer or lottery tickets. The other? "If it's not good for my family," says Ali, "it's not good for yours. People tell me I'd make a lot of money in this neighborhood if I sold alcohol and lottery tickets. But it's not just about making money."

In fact, for most of Halal Meat's history, Ali has worked at other jobs and owned other businesses in order to support his family. "I don't do this for the money. I started this because there was no halal meat here for my family. Then friends wanted some. So, there was a demand; a market." He shrugs. "It was important to me to make it available."

This availability now includes supplying several Indian and Turkish restaurants in Northeast Ohio. And within the next month, Ali will break ground for a new store at East 83rd, between Euclid and Carnegie, next to the Cleveland Playhouse and down the block from the Cleveland Clinic. Named after the mystic Sufi poet, Rumi International Foods will feature prepared foods, a food court and halal catering services, in addition to halal meats and groceries.

At the original store, Ali takes phone orders: one whole goat, two lambs. He makes change for a sweet, lumbering man who gives out Catholic holy cards; totals up two liters of pop, dish soap and 25 pounds of flour, entering it into his book of store credit. He sells a $15 phone card for Africa and confers with Paradise.

Cleveland's Agora Theater and Ballroom to close for summer: After Darkby John Petkovic / Plain Dealer Reporter Wednesday June 10, 2009, 1:35 PM

"I'm closing for three months -- June, July and August," said Hank LoConti, owner of the Agora Theater and Ballroom, 5000 Euclid Ave., Cleveland. "I'm still renting the place for shows that other promoters are doing, but I'm not booking shows until September."...

Half The World Is HereAn Economics Student Turned Butcher Serves His Own Growing Community, And Many OthersBy Jo Steigerwald

Once a week, Mr. Ali Lotfi-fard, an Iranian-born Muslim, drives to Bristol, Ohio, just a jog south of Middlefield. His destination: a slaughterhouse where Amish workers will help him corral the beef on the hoof needed for the week. Mr. Lotfi-fard is a halal butcher, whose store at West 95th and Detroit packs the world between its walls.

Tinned mackerel from Izola, Slovenia. Rice from Pakistan; rice from Thailand. Moroccan sardines. Feta cheese: French, Bulgarian, Romanian. The most fragrant green tea with jasmine from Karachi, Pakistan. Goya-brand beans and recaito. Dettol, the antiseptic cleaner mentioned in seemingly every contemporary novel from India. A phalanx of silver and gold hookah pipes. Henna hair dye. Tea samovars and china; liters of Pepsi, boxes of corn flakes. And during Ramadan, the cases of medjool dates are stacked as high as a man.

Want to know how a city grows? Watch what it eats. Cleveland, long a bastion of pierogis (or piroshke or pyrohy, depending on which side of what Eastern European border your great-grandmother traveled from), is now enriched by a conflation of Arabic, African and Asian tastes - all of whom have among them the commonality of a fast-growing religion, Islam.

Mr. Lotfi-fard (whom everyone calls Ali) and his wife, Paradise, immigrated to the United States in 1977. They came to escape the revolution brewing in Iran that ended with the overthrow of the reigning monarchy and the establishment of an Islamic republic under the Ayatollah Khomeini. Ali studied economics at Case Western Reserve University and Cleveland State, worked several jobs and raised a family of four sons with Paradise.

How did a student of economics become a butcher? Market demand. There was a dearth of halal butchers in Cleveland in the late '70s, and so Ali started Halal Meats to provide acceptable meat for his family. Then for friends. Finally, he and Paradise opened the store at 9418 Detroit in 1983.

"Halal means lawful, or permitted," explains Ali. "One takes the life of an animal with intention and respect in a humane way, and one invokes the name of God. A halal butcher must be intentional; must be humane; and must invoke the name of God." Like the kosher designation for Jews, halal signifies the divine present in the everyday, where God is in the details. Unlike kosher standards, a halal certification does not require its butchers to be overseen by a mosque official; it is enough that they are Muslim.

In addition to the beef from Bristol, Halal Meats has goat, lamb and chicken, whole or cut to order. His assistant, Noor Najmiah, who sports a pompadour that would make a rockabilly front man proud, travels to Detroit once a week for halal chicken, bakery and most of the store's grocery stock. "It used to be that the distributors delivered to us," says Paradise. "But since the price of gas is so high, we must go to them. Most of what is in the store we get from Detroit, which has a large Arabic community."

According to the American Religious Identity Survey, conducted in 2001 by the City University of New York with a sample size of 50,000 Americans, Islam ranks third on the list of the top 20 religions in the United States. Since 1980, the proportion of mosques founded in this country had increased by 62 percent, according to a 2001 study from the Hartford Institute for Religious Research.

Of course, Muslims have come to the United States for much longer than the past 30 years. Paradise tells this story: "About 15 years ago, there was an old Iranian man who came to the store, maybe twice. He had come to this country long ago, probably in the early 1900s. The second time he was in the store, he brought some things his mother gave him to take with him to America. He said his family wasn't interested in them and he wanted to give them to me. There was a magnificent prayer rug, a string of prayer beads, and two books. The one book was the Koran. He didn't know what the other book was, he couldn't read it." It was a cookbook. Humanity needs nourishment, physical and spiritual.

A prohibition on eating pork is part of the Muslim faith, as are drinking alcohol and gambling, which is one reason Ali won't sell beer or lottery tickets. The other? "If it's not good for my family," says Ali, "it's not good for yours. People tell me I'd make a lot of money in this neighborhood if I sold alcohol and lottery tickets. But it's not just about making money."

In fact, for most of Halal Meat's history, Ali has worked at other jobs and owned other businesses in order to support his family. "I don't do this for the money. I started this because there was no halal meat here for my family. Then friends wanted some. So, there was a demand; a market." He shrugs. "It was important to me to make it available."

This availability now includes supplying several Indian and Turkish restaurants in Northeast Ohio. And within the next month, Ali will break ground for a new store at East 83rd, between Euclid and Carnegie, next to the Cleveland Playhouse and down the block from the Cleveland Clinic. Named after the mystic Sufi poet, Rumi International Foods will feature prepared foods, a food court and halal catering services, in addition to halal meats and groceries.

At the original store, Ali takes phone orders: one whole goat, two lambs. He makes change for a sweet, lumbering man who gives out Catholic holy cards; totals up two liters of pop, dish soap and 25 pounds of flour, entering it into his book of store credit. He sells a $15 phone card for Africa and confers with Paradise.

On the Agora: I'm glad the Jigsaw misadventure didn't do any more damage than it did. Very sad they'd close for the summer... if only there were a small entertainment district around it to add some summer foot traffic... Beachland and Grog Shop aren't closing for the summer, so it's not an industry thing. It's a Midtown thing. Building a research park nearby is not going to help this situation. It only will further isolate what should be viewed as a premier attraction for this city. That's right, we're the home of Rock & Roll, but we're going to develop a sterile environment around our most venerable rock club as if it's not even there. Madness.

On the grocery store: That is the worst urban zoning code imaginable. Wow. Let's examine:

"a grocery store is not permitted in a Multi-Family District"

"frontage landscape strip... a 6’ width is required along the parking lot"

"parking spaces shall be at least 180 square feet and accessory uses shall be no less than 10’ from the side street line"

All these bad decisions we keep complaining about have been required by Cleveland law. If we're going to keep those laws on the books there's no sense in trying to redevelop anything. The zoning code must change. It must change and it must change NOW. It is the A#1 overwhelming reason the wrong things get built here, in the wrong manner and in the wrong places. We have got to do something about this and it is urgent. Extremely simple, but urgent.

The Agora closing for the summer is indeed an industry thing. Summers are a tough time for midsized venues like the Agora, as outdoor shows suck up several bands each that could otherwise headline a midsize venue. Beachland and Grog Shop are different sizes from the Agora, much smaller, and aren't drawing from the same set of bands. They have a much larger set they can draw from to fill their venues, including many small local bands. Also, their overhead is much lower. I don't know about the Beachland, but I bet the Grog can open up just as a bar for the evening and still make some money- not an option for the Agora.

On the grocery store: That is the worst urban zoning code imaginable. Wow. Let's examine:

"a grocery store is not permitted in a Multi-Family District"

"frontage landscape strip... a 6’ width is required along the parking lot"

"parking spaces shall be at least 180 square feet and accessory uses shall be no less than 10’ from the side street line"

All these bad decisions we keep complaining about have been required by Cleveland law. If we're going to keep those laws on the books there's no sense in trying to redevelop anything. The zoning code must change. It must change and it must change NOW. It is the A#1 overwhelming reason the wrong things get built here, in the wrong manner and in the wrong places. We have got to do something about this and it is urgent. Extremely simple, but urgent.

Also, shouldn't these types of things be guided towards some sort of "culinary district" like has been mentioned for the area around the West Side Market or other areas, where the idea would be to group various culinary/International food stores etc., to create a bustling district? I guess the city is more interested in this scattered auto-centric approach.

I don't think the City decided where these private investors were going to put their business. I'm guessing the private investors decided where to put it, and that they wanted to be close to the large South and West Asian communities associated with the hospitals.

Agreed about the "just a bar" option not being there for the Agora right now. This is why I'm so dead set on making sure residential and complimentary businesses get built in that area. More realistically... that the area is reserved for such while we still have the chance.

The Grog Shop is definitely smaller, but the Beachland is comparable. Remember that a lot of the Agora's building is not part of the venue itself. It has the same features as the Beachland, including a smaller stage for smaller acts. In fact the Agora has small local acts in there all the time, or at least they did recently... I have a feeling the summer closure has more to do with cleaning up the Jigsaw mess and with not having a neighborhood around it to draw on like the other two do. I really don't think it's anything unique to the Agora as a venue. Isolate either of the other places and they'd have similar problems.

Also, it is not typical for the Agora to do this. It may not be a big moneymaker but it is undeniably a big draw. You should have seen the (irritating) crowd for the Insane Clown Posse show. Black Keys... although apparently they're never coming back due to Jigsaw issues. Flaming Lips, anyone? I don't think that one was in the summer, but wow did that block light up with people. If you spent some time near the Agora in recent years, for the big shows and the little ones, I don't think anyone would poo-poo it like this. It is fully legit, and I wish the community would step back and reexamine its cultural value before it gets swept away.

Also, shouldn't these types of things be guided towards some sort of "culinary district" like has been mentioned for the area around the West Side Market or other areas, where the idea would be to group various culinary/International food stores etc., to create a bustling district? I guess the city is more interested in this scattered auto-centric approach.

Interesting point, and something to consider. There's also an Arab food "district" around 117th and Lorain. Maybe this guy thought the east side was lacking, or maybe as X said he's looking to the hospitals for business.

Also, shouldn't these types of things be guided towards some sort of "culinary district" like has been mentioned for the area around the West Side Market or other areas, where the idea would be to group various culinary/International food stores etc., to create a bustling district? I guess the city is more interested in this scattered auto-centric approach.

Or near Galluccis! Those would be two pretty awesome anchors for some redevelopment.

But yeah, can't blame this guy for choosing Carnegie given the high visibility for the flood of traffic there and convenience from the hospitals and eastern inner ring burbs.

My friend's band played at the Jigsaw the previous Memorial day and they also didn't get paid. Maybe the Lara guy has something against Akron bands. He just shut down the HiFi club in Lakewood too. So this great empire of rock clubs has come crashing down. Too bad the Agora had anything to do with it. Pretty much once bands find out that clubs are screwing over bands by not paying them, the clubs cease to exist. Thats pretty idiotic not to pay the Black Keys.

On the Agora: I'm glad the Jigsaw misadventure didn't do any more damage than it did. Very sad they'd close for the summer... if only there were a small entertainment district around it to add some summer foot traffic... Beachland and Grog Shop aren't closing for the summer, so it's not an industry thing. It's a Midtown thing. Building a research park nearby is not going to help this situation. It only will further isolate what should be viewed as a premier attraction for this city. That's right, we're the home of Rock & Roll, but we're going to develop a sterile environment around our most venerable rock club as if it's not even there. Madness.

On the grocery store: That is the worst urban zoning code imaginable. Wow. Let's examine:

"a grocery store is not permitted in a Multi-Family District"

"frontage landscape strip... a 6 width is required along the parking lot"

"parking spaces shall be at least 180 square feet and accessory uses shall be no less than 10 from the side street line"

All these bad decisions we keep complaining about have been required by Cleveland law. If we're going to keep those laws on the books there's no sense in trying to redevelop anything. The zoning code must change. It must change and it must change NOW. It is the A#1 overwhelming reason the wrong things get built here, in the wrong manner and in the wrong places. We have got to do something about this and it is urgent. Extremely simple, but urgent.

For some reason, I thought these zoing codes were outdated....so this is really what it still is in 2009?? damn..

You're right..."a grocery store is not permitted in a Multi-Family District" ??...does this mean it's supposed to be purely residental...still trying to figure this out since there are of course Mcdonalds and BK just a few blocks away

"frontage landscape strip... a 6ft width is required along the parking lot"

"parking spaces shall be at least 180 square feet and accessory uses shall be no less than 10 from the side street line"

Parking guidelines...of course! the more suburban city of Cleveland the better

East 83rd and Carnegie LLC, owner and Ali Lofti Fard, appeal to construct a one-story grocery store and restaurant, proposed to be situated on consolidated parcels located in split zoning between General Retail Business and Multi-Family Districts on the west side of East 83rd Street at 2040 East 83rd Street; subject to the limitations of Section 337.08, a grocery store is not permitted in a Multi-Family District; and contrary to Sections 352.10 and 352.11, a 4’ wide frontage landscape strip is proposed where a 6’ width is required along the parking lot on East 83rd Street and Section 325.03 stipulates that parking spaces shall be at least 180 square feet and accessory uses shall be no less than 10’ from the side street line according to Section 357.05 of the Codified Ordinances. (Filed 5-15-07)

The Hi-Fi had better open again. This is getting out of hand. It's like John Lithgow from Footloose is in charge.

For grocery stores to coexist really close they'd all have to be kind of small. There's going to be some product overlap and we wouldn't want Gallucci's or the Asian places to get cannibalized. The near east side is great for ethnic food, definitely something to build on. This new one will be a nice addition. A Puerto Rican grocery on the east side would be good too, maybe up or down 55th.

The new international food place on E. 83rd and Carnegie is another dissapointment to MidTown, although once again, it falls on the cusps of some other zoning...... Another setback from the street building with a flooded parking lot in the front. Nice.............

I posted this in the Filling in Euclid Avenue thread, but it is applicable here as well. ---

I just found out that Housing Credits were awarded (by the State of Ohio's Ohio Housing Finance Agency) for senior housing at East 73rd Street (by PIRHL Developers & Famicos Foundation) and permanent supportive housing at East 75th Street (by Cleveland Housing Network & EDEN) via a competitive process. With the funding, it looks like both projects are in a very favorable position to move forward.

^I wouldn't go that far, but it is certainly far more harmful than beneficial to the city. Who would want to start a small business nextdoor to a psychiatric hospital? Who would want to build middle class residences across the street from facilities like that?

I am going to reserve judgment until I better understand how this facility will be designed. It's not like a homeless shelter in terms of causing undesirable street level activity. Plus, as I mentioned upthread, I never really held out much hope for a vibrant residential neighborhood in this particular area (from the E 50's up to E. 72) of the corridor.

I repeat... destroyed. You tell me where the "good" development will happen now. Anti-pedestrian black holes will now be interspersed from downtown to uptown so densely that there's no incentive to develop anything resembling an urban neighborhood in Midtown. This is what I warned about earlier.

I think it could be a fantastic area for some low-rise residential development. It reminds me a lot of the Meatpacking District .. a ton of abandoned warehouses mixed with established businesses. I, for one, would love to live in an area like that.

I think a lot more needs to be done in terms of planning, though, to really turn this into a first-class neighborhood, though. I think a lot of changes would need to be made. Until then, I agree .. it has no real chance as of yet.

While I don't think that this is the best location for this facility either, if done right (a big "if"), perhaps some of the 300-500 employees could help increase demand in the area for housing, food, and other services. If so, it could be a catalyst for development. Plus, employees could take the new HealthLine to get to work rather than autos. What this would require, then, is the plans to call for limited parking and, hopefully, no surface lots.

Although I'm trying to put a positive spin on this, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

While I don't think that this is the best location for this facility either, if done right (a big "if"), perhaps some of the 300-500 employees could help increase demand in the area for housing, food, and other services. If so, it could be a catalyst for development. Plus, employees could take the new HealthLine to get to work rather than autos. What this would require, then, is the plans to call for limited parking and, hopefully, no surface lots.

Although I'm trying to put a positive spin on this, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

The positive spin is appreciated, but none of that is likely. Hospitals prefer surface lots. Best bet is to keep them off Euclid where we just built.. too late. Hospitals (especially in bad neighborhoods) tend to have on-site food service because they know their typical employee doesn't want to be out in the ghetto. So forget this thing spawning restaurants. There needs to be more residential to get more restaurants, and that possibility just went out the window. This hospital will likely bring an existing workforce in (isn't it moving in from a suburban location?), and these are people who are flat-out against riding transit. How does a BRT connection between downtown and uptown help them with their commute anyway? They will drive and they will expect to have hassle-free parking. That's why ANOTHER hospital is such a horrendous thing to put next to the new transit system we just freaking built. This project should be stopped.

People move. Give them incentives to do so (as with the Clinic's "bonus" to people who live in UC). Not sure if this is something that can be done with it being a state hospital or not, but there's always potential there.

I agree with you, but had to make an attempt to make this look like something other than another 50-year bad decision. We've made oh so many of them as a community. What's one more? (Great leadership by Mayor Jackson, too, to overlook the planning nightmare that this causes. At least they're now "city" jobs.)

I don't know...I can't really get so bent out of shape about the psych hospital. I'm sure it will be a crappy site plan and we'll all hate it...but considering how hard it's been to get new construction middle class housing built even near UC and further east on Euclid, I think it's a stretch to think that this chunk of land was going to explode into well-designed middle class housing anytime soon. I agree that we shouldn't accept any old crap people want to build on this vacant land, but this is a pretty significant project that will bring/keep a ton of employees into the city.

I guess I look at it this way: this city will see a finite number of new job-dense projects built over the next 10 years. The city and county and other public bodies should do everything they can to funnel these types of projects to areas served by our best public transportation and to brownfield/redevelopment areas; this is the only way to make urban and transit-dependent living a practical option for residents. I guess I'm just relieved that this thing isn't being built on some greenfield in the exurbs (like new Eaton HQ) which makes it virtually impossible for employees to have this lifestyle option.

So in my head it comes down to which of the transit-rich areas would have been a better fit for this facility. Once the opportunity corridor is built, maybe big projects like this can be steered towards the east side red line corridor (like juvie hall), but probably not until then.

This facitility is a bad fit for any transit-rich area. There are greenfields all through this city, including several within a mile of this wildly inappropriate site. If there was never any chance of developing neighborhoods on Euclid, why was the BRT built? If it never needed stops on Euclid between downtown and UC/EC, it's wholly redundant with the red line. This is not the bill of goods we were sold in conjunction with that project.

Cardinal rule: If it's anti-urban, and it's not the Cleveland Clinic, let the burbs keep it. Addition is subtraction, if it wastes a sunk cost or if it permanently displaces something that would have been more gainful.

^ That too. Jeeminy Christmas... this is how serious our leadership vaccuum is. Euclid Ave is being destroyed before our eyes. Wow.

That section of Euclid Avenue is already destroyed. you need to look at the fact that 500 people will be driving to that employer everyday and catering to any ameneties around there. Without jobs there, people will not go there. I really do not see the evil in having this on this site. There needs to be a draw to the area befor it develops resedentially and with retail.

I'm sick of hearing the whole "we're desperate to keep jobs, so let's just plunk this thing anywhere" line. Neighborhoods need to be planned much better, and those neighborhoods need to stick to their vision for the area if there will ever be any hope of it progressing, I think. There needs to be a larger vision for this area, and if it's building a bunch of medical facilities, so be it .. but I thought their vision for the neighborhood was grander than that.

I dunno. Personally, I'm pretty disappointed by this development. We'll see what happens, I guess. Yes, we keep jobs, and that's great. But Cleveland needs to stop settling for so little all the time.

This facitility is a bad fit for any transit-rich area. There are greenfields all through this city, including several within a mile of this wildly inappropriate site. If there was never any chance of developing neighborhoods on Euclid, why was the BRT built? If it never needed stops on Euclid between downtown and UC/EC, it's wholly redundant with the red line. This is not the bill of goods we were sold in conjunction with that project.

A 500-employee facility that will attract a daily stream of visitors is a bad fit for a transit-rich area? I guess I'm puzzled by your feelings here. I agree that I'd like to see more residential along the BRT, but you also need to give commuters somewhere to ride to.

^ That too. Jeeminy Christmas... this is how serious our leadership vaccuum is. Euclid Ave is being destroyed before our eyes. Wow.

That section of Euclid Avenue is already destroyed. you need to look at the fact that 500 people will be driving to that employer everyday and catering to any ameneties around there. Without jobs there, people will not go there. I really do not see the evil in having this on this site. There needs to be a draw to the area befor it develops resedentially and with retail.

I need a beer. I know a ton of people who commute to jobs in the city, and they are 100% against patronizing local businesses. They don't want to be out of their cars in these areas, and given the current shortage of health care workers, their employer will make sure they're happy in this regard. Hospitals do not spawn residential and retail... if they do, what the hell is going on around the Clinic? It's been there for ages, employing zillions over that time, and look at the area around it! This is not the kind of traffic that helps an urban neighborhood. This only hurts, and it's especially bad here because there were so many high hopes for the corridor.

A 500-employee facility that will attract a daily stream of visitors is a bad fit for a transit-rich area? I guess I'm puzzled by your feelings here. I agree that I'd like to see more residential along the BRT, but you also need to give commuters somewhere to ride to.

Help me understand where you're coming from.

In what way is BRT a commuter line? It was never intended to be. Do you really think a significant portion of these workers or hospital visitors will utilize the BRT? Are you suggesting that Lutheran helps W25th with its stream of visitors? This is not how I see things working out in practice... at all. Private institutions like hospitals are anti-pedestrian. If you want to see more residential in an area, why simultaneously support placing something there that people don't want to live around?

^I think you're view of the Clinic's impact is a little narrow. The Clinic has done a terrible job with its vast land holdings, and as a result of which, we'll never know if employees would patronize nearby businesses. But the location of the Clinic most certainly makes living in the Heights, downtown, and even crappier parts of the city an attractive and viable option for its thousands of employees. And I'd guess that hundreds of Clinic employees arrive to work on public transit every day.

^ That too. Jeeminy Christmas... this is how serious our leadership vaccuum is. Euclid Ave is being destroyed before our eyes. Wow.

That section of Euclid Avenue is already destroyed. you need to look at the fact that 500 people will be driving to that employer everyday and catering to any ameneties around there. Without jobs there, people will not go there. I really do not see the evil in having this on this site. There needs to be a draw to the area befor it develops resedentially and with retail.

I need a beer. I know a ton of people who commute to jobs in the city, and they are 100% against patronizing local businesses. They don't want to be out of their cars in these areas, and given the current shortage of health care workers, their employer will make sure they're happy in this regard. Hospitals do not spawn residential and retail... if they do, what the hell is going on around the Clinic? It's been there for ages, employing zillions over that time, and look at the area around it! This is not the kind of traffic that helps an urban neighborhood. This only hurts, and it's especially bad here because there were so many high hopes for the corridor.

Go ahead and build 100 condominiums there. Do you reall think people want to live at 55th and Euclid right now. Probably not. If you were a bank, would you provide someone funding for houses there, probably not. Area's don't develop because houses are built, houses are built because there are jobs. Jobs come first, homes come next, retail comes last.

^I think you're view of the Clinic's impact is a little narrow. The Clinic has done a terrible job with its vast land holdings, and as a result of which, we'll never know if employees would patronize nearby businesses. But the location of the Clinic most certainly makes living in the Heights, downtown, and even crappier parts of the city an attractive and viable option for its thousands of employees. And I'd guess that hundreds of Clinic employees arrive to work on public transit every day.

But the BRT doesn't go to any of those places in the Heights, so it doesn't factor into too many of those professional commutes. What does the Clinic do that other hospitals don't, which results in a unique amount of not-retail and not-residential all around it? Out of 100,000s of employees, hundreds use transit? I view that ratio somewhat negatively, to say the least. Please help me understand, so I can drink less tonight.

Go ahead and build 100 condominiums there. Do you reall think people want to live at 55th and Euclid right now. Probably not. If you were a bank, would you provide someone funding for houses there, probably not. Area's don't develop because houses are built, houses are built because there are jobs. Jobs come first, homes come next, retail comes last.

No, I do not believe development must, or can, be sequential like that. Jobs exist in abundance two miles to the east and west of 55th street. Again, if residential wasn't ever planned for Euclid, why the BRT? What's still lacking is quality urban retail/residential amenities in this area. Are you saying that living next to a mental hospital or "senior housing" (those towers on W25th are "senior housing") is desirable and will one day increase residential demand? On what grounds? Because people work there? People work in slaughterhouses, but they're not conducive to residential on any timeline. Neither is this.

... I read and write very quickly, but I'm getting worn out here today... this has been eminently enjoyable, thank you all... I must now go mourn for Midtown...

Sorry I mistyped the 100,000s. I'm sure the transit usage ratio at the Clinic is poor, but I'm sure it's a lot better than the new UH hospital being built in Chagrin Highlands will have. And even if it's poor overall, it means lower income workers and those who prefer using transit have options.

327, I guess I might agree with you more if there was any indication whatsoever that there was market rate housing activity being displaced by the psych hospital. As far as I know, the big housing projects and post industrial landscape have done a good enough job on their own stifling residential interest there.

^Oh, my comments are only about the psych hospital. I feel very differently about the other two project that were announced.

For what's it's worth, much of the site is in the MMUD-1 zoning district, including all of the Euclid frontage I've never read the code, but per this Midtwon document (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MTC%20master%20plan-zoning%20summaries.pdf (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MTC%20master%20plan-zoning%20summaries.pdf)):

This sub-area [MMUD-1] provides for multistorymixed-use structures thatsit at the street line and extendthe majority of the lot width. Firstfloor retail or office space combinedwith upper floor office orresidential use is desired.Parking may be located at therear or side of buildings. Thereis limited application for drive-upwindow uses in this sub-area.

Sorry, one more thing: Keep reading that Midtown plan. Read the long version. It includes a specific proposal for that site which clashes significantly with the MMUD-1 concept. Also, look into what the City's actual zoning is for that parcel.

Despite "MMUD-1" the Midtown Inc plan is to encourage mixed use development only from 71st to 79th... where the senior housing is apparently going in. The rest of Euclid is to be a business park.

What does the Clinic do that other hospitals don't, which results in a unique amount of not-retail and not-residential all around it?

To close this loop: Unlike hospitals in urban areas where land is actually worth a lot, the Clinic owns everything in its vicinity. Everything. The few retail establishments near the Clinic (like the ones on the ground floor of the Guesthouse) lease from the Clinic. The only opportunity for the non-Clinic market to even try to offer up retail/dining for Clinic employees is on Cedar Avenue which is so far gone; but even on Cedar there was until last year a restaurant that lived off Clinic diners.

^I wouldn't go that far, but it is certainly far more harmful than beneficial to the city. Who would want to start a small business nextdoor to a psychiatric hospital? Who would want to build middle class residences across the street from facilities like that?

Well, if you look at Las Olas Boulevard in Fort Lauderdale, they have both a community and a psychiatric hospital not more than 100 yards from each other. Both of them are surrounded by not just middle-class, but seriously upper-class residences.

I'm not advocating that this is the best use for Euclid, but it can't be all that bad...

Here is a google maps view of the nasty buildings (keep in mind the buildings are nasty, but the neighborhood is pretty cool):

^ I see a whole bunch of hedges and walls and fences along that street. As predicted, no pedestrians either. There's no pedestrian activity in the middle of a beautiful day. I think I see one person walking around. The housing around there isn't bad, but the style is semi-rural. The commercial stuff is all 1-story and devoid of visible patrons. Nothing, absolutely nothing, appears to be mixed use. If it weren't sunny, that picture would be kind of depressing.

I don't see anything along that street that makes me think the developments in question will be anything but destructive to Euclid Avenue. Nice street though. Just needs some people on it. Let's not make the same mistakes Ft. Lauderdale did. They can overcome planning mistakes with sunshine, we can't.

Bottom line is this IMO: by the time that specific area of Euclid is ready for the type of residential influx and pedestrian vibrancy 327 and others envision, the psychiatric hospital will be about ready to come down anyway. :wink:

BRT or not, there are way too many areas of the City more promising for sustainable gentrification. sh!te, the port relocation and lakefront project will be done before meaningful residential buildings start popping up around 55th and Euclid regardless of any psych hospital.

The BRT is a long stretch. There is A LOT of filling in to do and PLENTY of room to do it.

hmm, i dont see anything wrong with the hospital along euclid ave outright. however, i dont think using up a chunk of a large plot where there are long simmering other plans is wise when it could be sited elsewhere, even in midtown.

just for laughs let's say it still 'has to be on euclid,' is there any better site than this one?

wherever it ends up being built --- at the very least the city needs to wring good or at least ok design, urban form and a parking garage out of the deal. allowing all surface parking would be a total blunder.

The whole point of the Healthline was to spur development along Euclid Ave, and it was working well until the housing crisis.There are lots of places this hospital can go, the city planning department should have the discipline to demand that any development along Euclid Ave fit into a dense urban main street. Maybe there won't be that kind of development there for 10 or even 20 years. Now, that development will never happen on those 14 acres, and not it is much less likely in the areas immediately surrounding it.

I never realized my optimism for Midtown was so unique. It appears I'm certifiably insane. I think there is immediate need for residential there, particularly for college students and healthcare workers, and many pieces are already in place there for a thriving youth-oriented mixed use district. I also think if the prospects for Euclid Ave were known to be this dark, building the BRT was an enourmous and tragic mistake. That money should have gone elsewhere.

I strongly disagree that there is a ton of potential neighborhood land along Euclid. It's a lot less empty than people seem to think. Many of these awful structures were built somewhat recently, that's the sad thing. There's really no hope of getting them torn down. The street is empty of pedestrians and businesses to serve them, but it's far far far from being empty of buildings. They're just the wrong buildings, with the wrong roles in society to have them lined up along our new BRT.

How many people work at the sewer district HQ, at 40th? I walked by there every day, never saw a single person outdoors. Never saw one inside either, because they put stuff along every window to cut themselves off from their surroundings. They should have told the architect not to put windows and saved some money. Workplaces are not the answer. We need things that either contain or serve residents. Anything that is forbidden to residents should be forbidden to Euclid Avenue.

This area around 55th is about the only open stretch we have left. Sure there are scattered parcels elsewhere, but nowhere that isn't already hemmed in by institutions and other 9-5 stuff. The area closer to 79th has more going on, while the area from 55th to downtown is almost entirely filled with anti-pedestrian structures. There's one restaraunt and one convenience store for 20 blocks, and that convenience store mostly just sells cheap porn.

wherever it ends up being built --- at the very least the city needs to wring good or at least ok design, urban form and a parking garage out of the deal. allowing all surface parking would be a total blunder.

That's where my mind is too. I'm OK with the facility being here, but for god's sake- let's get some decent design and streetscape our of this.

327, I don't know about the viability of residential in that part of Midtown, but you do raise an interesting question about the BRT that we've discussed on this board before. Right now, the biggest residential area with any density that the BRT touches upon is in East Cleveland, which is literally crumbling. As the employment base along the BRT grows, I really do hope RTA investigates sending BRT branches up Cedar and maybe even through service to the west side on Clifton. That could connect a lot of nice, dense residential areas to our main employment centers with one-seat rides.

I don't know if this is exactly the appropriate thread for posting this...But the curiosity I have had for so long has gotten the best of me.

Near Euclid and E.55th, on the north side of Euclid, there is one standing building left over from past demolitions in that area---that is about...Ohhh.. maybe 6 floors or so, red brick (dirty of course) all boarded up, with spectacular bay windows and street level retail. I have always thought this building would be a gem if fully restored and yet for so long, it has sat there.

I have not been down that part of Euclid in over a month and have not paid attention to whether or not it is even still there.... But I would like to know if it is.... Why such a building, that at least in my unprofessional eye, looks to be a great renovation possibility..is still sitting all alone surrounded by empty lots now? Is there going to be any interest in it?

Also, I remember in the early 1980's, when traveling to the mid part of Euclid with my Father who did a lot of work around greater Cleveland...stopping by what was the old Green Vacuum Parts Distributorship. The building I am talking about was near here...and I remember at that time, several ones similar, all boarded up of course.... And from what I remember, they were some pretty great buildings too. Now they're all gone. It was almost like a second little downtown, except that the time I witnessed it, all the buildings near Green Vac, were already in decline.

Well, just wondered if anyone knew anything about the one lone survivor in that area. If that ever became available--and when my ship comes in, I'd consider buying that and getting something done with it.

EC, the building you are thinking of (actually 2 buildings) was just demolished.

I have to agree that this is about as poor a land use decision as we could make. That said, I don't want to see this conversation just go in circles. I recommend writing to your City Councilperson and State Representative, not the City Planning Commission. If they had even the slightest amount of muscle, we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

I spoke with someone at the city planning commission yesterday. They were kind enough to hear me out and said they'd pass along my concerns. The person I spoke with was unaware of either of these stories, including the mayor's announcement, and thought I was talking about the PD story from a couple Sundays ago.

They didn't show their hand as to where they stood personally on this site choice. They raised the issue of we gotta have something, and I raised the issues I've raised here. I used W25th as a comparison. South of Bridge it has street life, north of Bridge it has a hospital and senior housing. That point seemed to register somewhat. Then again, as X says, this might be an issue best brought to others. I encourage everyone to contact whomever they can contact to get this turned around. Perhaps after the holiday.

^ I see a whole bunch of hedges and walls and fences along that street. As predicted, no pedestrians either. There's no pedestrian activity in the middle of a beautiful day. I think I see one person walking around. The housing around there isn't bad, but the style is semi-rural. The commercial stuff is all 1-story and devoid of visible patrons. Nothing, absolutely nothing, appears to be mixed use. If it weren't sunny, that picture would be kind of depressing.

I don't see anything along that street that makes me think the developments in question will be anything but destructive to Euclid Avenue. Nice street though. Just needs some people on it. Let's not make the same mistakes Ft. Lauderdale did. They can overcome planning mistakes with sunshine, we can't.

Well, picture aside, Las Olas is one of the more pedestrian areas of town in Ft Lauderdale. Lots of art galleries, restaurants, hotels, etc. And it doesn't hurt that there are some ridiculous houses along the intercostal right in that area.

Was the psych ward built before the residential areas of Las Olas? If not, I don't think it would be a fair comparison. While I am not as against a psych ward as I am section 8 housing, there is a miniscule amount of people who would actually be willing to move to the areas once the psych ward is built. If the residential stuff had been built before, it would probably be a different story.

Regarding the EC, I'm starting to have my doubts on its impact. 327 rattled off a very sound rationale for why such a development as the psych ward goes against the very foundation of why the EC was built. However, that can be for a different time and a different thread.

^ I see a whole bunch of hedges and walls and fences along that street. As predicted, no pedestrians either. There's no pedestrian activity in the middle of a beautiful day. I think I see one person walking around. The housing around there isn't bad, but the style is semi-rural. The commercial stuff is all 1-story and devoid of visible patrons. Nothing, absolutely nothing, appears to be mixed use. If it weren't sunny, that picture would be kind of depressing.

I don't see anything along that street that makes me think the developments in question will be anything but destructive to Euclid Avenue. Nice street though. Just needs some people on it. Let's not make the same mistakes Ft. Lauderdale did. They can overcome planning mistakes with sunshine, we can't.

You asked "Who would want to move there?" if there was a psychiatric hospital. I told you plenty of people, from the middle-class to the upper-upper class.

Now, you are talking about how many pedestrians there are or aren't. Well, I've got news for you, even this stretch of Las Olas, which is possibly the least attractive part of that boulevard has plenty of pedestrians (joggers, walkers, bicyclists, nannies with their kids on strollers, etc.). People actually walk, bike, skate, run multiple miles down this road every day to head to/from the beach.

By the way, remember, the picture was to highlight the lousy buildings, not to highlight the pedestrians visible during a particular snapshot in time (and location). Take a look at this next picture, if you don't move left or right on it, do you get any clue as to how many pedestrians or what great mixed-use development you are going to see?

Now, to the mixed-use point, I agree that Las Olas is not the best example of a mixed-use implementation. In fact it is pretty lousy in that respect.

However, even then, within it, there are restaurants, shops, a hotel, spas, offices, condominiums, medical offices, apartments. Also, within a half block of it (in both the north and south boundaries) there are plenty of townhomes, million(s) dollar homes and medical offices.

I would take that kind of "lousy" mixed-use on Euclid anytime of the week and twice on Sundays.

Was the psych ward built before the residential areas of Las Olas? If not, I don't think it would be a fair comparison. While I am not as against a psych ward as I am section 8 housing, there is a miniscule amount of people who would actually be willing to move to the areas once the psych ward is built. If the residential stuff had been built before, it would probably be a different story.

It appears from hospital-data.com that the psych ward was built in 1988 and the other hospital in 1976. I would bet serious amounts of money that at least 25% of residential, restaurants, stores, offices and condos in the Las Olas area (Las Olas Blvd. and within a block north and south along it) has been built (or re-built) since 1976.

---------------------------

My point is:IF the Psych Hospital on Euclid Avenue is developed correctly it will not negligibly change the disposition of people to walk or live in/around Euclid Avenue.

My biggest concern is, can the Psych Ward be correctly built from a mixed-use perspective?

A mixed-use psych ward? Really? High-security installations don't mix well with anything. It could be a psych ward or a place where they develop new fruit roll-up flavors... either way, it is off limits to everyone and that's the problem. It adds a pedestrian dead zone to a street already struggling with them.

Euclid Avenue is not exactly on the way to the beach. If we want pedestrians here we have to entice them with the road itself, not the destination. If there's a beach at the end of it, a road in Florida is probably going to see continuing positive developments no matter what planning mistakes occur.

I'm not against psych wards. I'm against building anything on Euclid that doesn't fit the plan inherent in the BRT. We all have a clear idea what was being sold at the time. This ain't it. This mental hospital will be a big inert cinderbrick of a structure surrounded by all the layers of KEEP OUT they can think of.

We've already established that Euclid doesn't currently have an atmosphere encouraging pedestrians and residents. We aren't trying to preserve a neighborhood that would be hurt by these projects, we're trying to preserve the chance to build one. No, putting a psych ward at 55th wouldn't do much harm to the existing situation for pedestrians. But it would do immeasurable harm to any potential improvements to the situation.

327- I share your enthusiasm for Midtown (I guess I'm insane too!). I emailed Krumholz as soon as I learned about these two developments. He thanked me for the email and recommended that I contact Rob Brown and Tony Coyne and voice my concerns.

This will be not be built poorly, it has to be built upto MMID code, for once, new construction falls in the zone this time, not outside of it. Any parking lots will be behind the building or in the form of a parking deck. Obviously, none of this has been drafted up yet, but I am only going on what the zoning for MidTown states.

People, I would love to see MidTown developed full of lofts, condo's, and live-work space. But who are you kidding when you suggest this is a huge setback, as if this is the only remaining land in MidTown, or more importantly, on Euclid? I can name 50 parcels of land ON EUCLID that are more suitable for condo's than this site. E. 71st near Baker Motors and the "Marous Brothers" project is much more realistic, as is anywhere around The Agora or NEORSD.

This is 500 new jobs on Euclid, 300 more people living inside, and 100's of visitors per day. Now even if only 10 people move to the area, it's better than none. Even if only 50 of the workers leave the hospital to go eat at a nearby restaurant, that's better than none. Doctors, nurses, aides, and psychiatric specialists are high paying jobs that require medical degrees. Do we not want 500 of them on Euclid? Would you prefer a skatepark? Would you prefer the continued presence of a grassy field? Or would you prefer this hospital be built in the greenfield space next to the new juvi center in the middle of the forgotten triangle?

The comparison of a psychiatric hospital to section 8 housing, homeless people, or criminals is absurd -- the patients will never leave the facility and more likely than not, you'll never enter it! Many middle-class and upper-class people have family members - siblings, children, parents who live in a psychiatric hospital and they visit them. This is not going to be crack addicts getting a visit from their crack addict spouse.

This might or might not produce new spin-off development, but give me a break. We'd be complaining if this were built in the suburbs and now we're complaining that it's being built here. It's a hospital, a rather large one, and if anyone thinks it stole the place of condo's, you're kidding only yourself. There is nothing urban about living on that portion of Euclid. Where can you walk to? There is NOTHING walkable in under 10 blocks. Gust Gallucci's?

Chester 82 is on the backburner and until that is built or Beacon Place is completed (also on hold), as well as the Marous Brother's proposed project at E. 71st and Euclid, we can't even begin to hope for any residential at E. 55th and Euclid. This land has no potential to be used for college dorms or residential. There is so much land available adjacent to CSU's campus as well as 3 private developments currently underway adjacent to the campus; CSU is 30 blocks away and even if this land would make good use for it, there will be no demand short-term with all that is already being built (or about to be built) on the campus.

Just remember, this nearly-100 million dollar hospital will be built right in the center of the "HEALTHLINE". I would rather high-tech or live-work in this area, but a large hospital is a long-term investment into the community. There's probably not a single Urbanohio'er who would feel comfortable walking around E. 55th and Euclid at 3am. When the hospital is up and running with security, surveillance, a 24/7 staff, and lighting, you'll feel like you're in a civilized setting, which is hardly the case right now. Right now, it's a scene out of Assault On Precinct 13's streetscapes. BTW - The other 2 projects proposed for Euclid are a whole different story and I would save your barking for those.

The problem is that this isn't the highest and best use for a site that is so well positioned and invested into for street level interaction. I understand what you're saying biz, but this is a very short sited development decision on a thoroughfare that we knew would not make a 180 degree turn over night. Cities are never really complete, and making the right decisions right now can affect the way things develop for decades. Putting a psych ward in the middle of Euclid is not a wise forward looking option.

I totally agree. This is a typical decision out of desperation .. because Cleveland is bleeding jobs, etc.

Cleveland seriously needs to start considering and planning for the future, not just for today. If it wants to truly turn around and bring itself into the future in a smart and progressive way, it needs to start making DECISIONS that reflect that .. and sometimes that means waiting for something better to come along, not just jumping at every opportunity that comes along!

^ BizBiz please read the long version Midtown Inc plan before citing it. The long version zones this area very differently than the short one does. I think even the short one, if you actually look at the map, shows an industrial park spanning both sides of Euclid at that point. The short one with the MMU- whatevers is downright misleading. The plan is for Euclid to be a business park from I-90 to E79th St.

I guess there's not much you can walk to around there, other than Dave's, half the Asiatown stores and restaraunts, a thrift store, a diner on Prospect, a recently opened restaurant at 36th, and indeed Gust Galluci's. I lived there for about a year, so I know what it has and what it doesn't have. The anti-Midtown attitudes I'm hearing from a lot of folks here are cynical and misinformed.

There is a solid neighborhood framework in this area-- moreso than there is from 71st to 79th. If the BRT to be leveraged into anything urban, this is the spot. It has anchors, in particular the Agora, and it has enough empty or easily-cleared land nearby to build something with critical mass.

The area from 55th westward, other than the county's parking lot for which there's no replacement, is full. It's full. I'd like to see new residential there but it's full. If you don't believe me, please tell me which new structures you think they'll let us knock down to build a neighborhood. They won't. Maybe everything from 30th to the innerbelt will come down for residential, but I don't see that happening either. So where are all these contiguous developable sections of Euclid I keep hearing about? I only see one, around 55th. I triple dog dare you to list 50 comparable parcels.

Every theory I hear about Euclid being wrong for residential really makes me wonder why the BRT was ever built, with a stop on every block. That simply isn't done anywhere on earth to serve an industrial park.

And if you don't think people have issues living next to a psych ward, I guess you haven't read any of the court cases about that exact issue. For a lot of people it's a dealbreaker. If that's not the case for you, that's very noble. But from a development perspective this thing will NOT draw residents, in fact it will be kryptonite.

I would absolutely prefer this be built near the new juvie center. That would be 7-8 times smarter than tying up Euclid Ave with another inert box of gloom. Those people visiting their relative at the psych ward-- are they happy about it? Is this the impression we want people to have about Euclid Avenue, oh no what's to become of my sister? Isn't there anywhere else that kind of tragedy could play out? Anywhere else? You don't see any negative associations there at all?

Moreover, the fact that the typical Euclid Ave resident or pedestrian would never enter this facility is PRECISELY why it doesn't belong on Euclid. I don't know how I could make that any plainer at this point.

A mixed-use psych ward? Really? High-security installations don't mix well with anything. It could be a psych ward or a place where they develop new fruit roll-up flavors... either way, it is off limits to everyone and that's the problem. It adds a pedestrian dead zone to a street already struggling with them.

I NEVER said that the psych ward itself would be a mixed-use development and if it was read that way I truly apologize.

What I did say is that if done correctly it would not negatively impact people's interest/inclination in walking or living in that area.

I also pointed out that if this works in other areas it could work in Cleveland, but you think that other areas are so special (like having a beach) that those areas can afford to get away with poor planning. Whereas Cleveland has to have everything be perfect otherwise, oooooohhhhh ahhhhhhhh, the big bad gremlin will get me when I walk by the psych ward on my way to the office building or condo next door. :-)

Psychiatric institutions work very well in other cities* and will work in Euclid as well. It would be a bonus (and I'm all for bombarding anyone to assure us of this) if they also design this appropriately so that it fits inside a mixed-use neighborhood.

No, putting a psych ward at 55th wouldn't do much harm to the existing situation for pedestrians. But it would do immeasurable harm to any potential improvements to the situation.

I also never meant to say that the existing situation was the reason people would or would not walk. What I meant to say is that either people have a disposition to walk/live in urban settings or they do not and a psych ward is not going to change that pre-disposition.

Granted, a badly designed and implemented psych ward will definitely exacerbate their negative inclinations.

I not only share your enthusiasm for Midtown, but when I lived in Cleveland I would drive up/down Euclid almost every day imagining it as it must have been many years ago. I also, would constantly shop at Galluci's and at the old Taco Bell on 55th and at one of the many neighborhood fried chicken places in the area. Yep, the owners would almost have heart attacks when the white-hispanic would walk in the door. I think they thought I would get shot or something.

I did this despite it being way out of the way (I lived in the Warehouse District, but worked in Chagrin). In fact, the last time I was in Cleveland (for Valentine's Day...yes I took my wife and daughter up to Cleveland, instead of to the beach, to celebrate Valentine's) I specifically forced my friend to drive me from downtown to university circle on Euclid so that I could see the progress. I do this because I still dream of the day that Euclid is once again packed with people.

Oh, and, when my wife and I studied at CWRU we would gladly take the #6 up/down Euclid even though it felt like a death wish everytime you got on that bus.

Having said all that, if not being opposed to a well-designed psych ward negates all the other great things I think/dream about for Euclid then, you and Oldmanladyluck can be the "insane" ones and I'll keep my sanity, thank you very much.

*I did a quick search for "psychiatric hospitals in Manhattan" no less than six institutions showed up and guess what, most of them are in the well-to-do areas of the city.

Thank you for writing about the future of Euclid Avenue in Midtown. The City continues to support the vision for mixed-use development with technology and bio-medical uses, complemented by pedestrian-oriented/transit-oriented housing and retail. We believe that the proposed developments can contribute to that vision, particularly if the buildings are properly designed and sited to promote pedestrian activity and transit use. All of the proposed uses are relatively high-density uses. The mental health hospital will bring hundreds of new employees to this portion of Euclid Avenue – employees and visitors who can use the transit line and patronize restaurants and stores. Also, significant amounts of vacant and underutilized land and buildings will remain open for development and re-use along this portion of Euclid Avenue . The City is committed to working with Midtown Cleveland and others to facilitate development and uses that are consistent with the Midtown plan.

I'm not exactly sure I'd call places 20+ blocks west and 4-5 avenues north part of a walkable neighborhood. Or at least I'll say I don't think you're going to find any developers to buy into that train of thought.

When I think of "mixed use development" being right next to "bio-medical uses" I think of Resident Evil. Not the first one, I mean the one where they did all that in the middle of a freaking city. If our concept is matching residential with bio-tech, our concept is bunk. These are two things that actually need to be segregated. And the idea that these workers will ride a bus that only goes down Euclid is laughable. So funny I could cry.

Again, there is all kinds of private land near the Cleveland Clinic and it's never developed in the way we're being told the area around this hospital will develop. Neither has W 25th north of Bridge. This is being done for the Mayor's short term political gain and that's all there is to it. Replace "hospital" with "slaughterhouse" or "paper factory" employing 500 and see if jobs are ever, ever, ever the only thing a responsible planner must consider.

Well, all I can say after reading these posts is...if it happens..and you can't hide it, then decorate it! At least make it the best it can be. No big setbacks, give it some curb appeal. I still prefer these to be set on the side streets as there are plenty of other areas for it.

Wait...come to think of this again.... This whole issue is about the stigma attached to a kook hospital. Ok.. I tend to agree that as Cleveland's main and grand avenue, we should not have it serving as a tribute and testament to ill-social health. That irritates me as much as I see countless people abusing disability tags, hanging from their car mirrors as though they were some sort of air freshener....advertising to the world how sick we are.

Now we will present ill social health along the main avenue through Cleveland. I think this say something about where priorities have evolved.

I'm not exactly sure I'd call places 20+ blocks west and 4-5 avenues north part of a walkable neighborhood. Or at least I'll say I don't think you're going to find any developers to buy into that train of thought.

Then what was the purpose of all those BRT stops, and what was the purpose of all that talk about bringing people to Euclid Avenue? How many families have to be torn apart by mental illness so that people are brought to Euclid Avenue? You renovate your main street for a billion dollars for the purpose of building things there which no one would ever want to visit or live by?

Regarding geography, I don't know where you're getting your info. It certainly isn't from having lived there. If you're at Euclid and 55th and you can't walk to something on Payne Avenue, which is 3 avenues up, you need a Jazzy Power Chair right now. The thrift store is directly adjacent to this intersection and Galluci's is about a 10 minute walk. And when we're counting blocks E-W, remember that there's only about a block and half between 55th and 40th here.

Seriously, the only problem holding this area back is the fact everyone in town hates it. So now it's a dumping ground for "jobs" that nobody wants near their home, even though we just spent all that money to give it a chance as a functional urban main street.

when talking biomed how come you always want to imagine the umbrella company? what about technology... medical devices, and implants... that stuff is hardly biohazzard stay away type stuff. having the midtown technology center, (which was to front euclid with no setback) between 59th and 61st, and in a later phase between 57th and 59th with hundreds of workers on upper floors and 1st floor "retail", probably defined as a cafe or restaurant... would have made your dreams of residential in the rest of the area much more attainable. The biggest problem with the hospital is perception, which will be very difficult to overcome. Still doesn't sting nearly as much as the subsidized housing in the east 70's. That will absolutely drive away market rate investment there.

If we really wanted residential at this intersection it'd best be put west of the bridge where that autocentric crap is, where the empty "midtown center" and clark station are. It'd be significantly more linked to the main draw of the area in the agora. You could even incorporate that odd C.A.A.A building (i have no idea what this is, but it appears to be a historic facade hiding). Of course what hampers any such idea from hatching in this area is that it would take such a substantial investment. No developer in their right mind is going to plop up 1 new building. Not enough around, too risky. You'd need something on the scale of uptown to draw enough interest, and I don't think anyone believes that's possible right now. Hell I know one very prominent local developer who won't even sniff a project if they don't believe they can't turn at LEAST at 13.5% profit. These guys aren't philanthropists playing sim city and just saying, wouldn't it be cool if... or I'll put something here and hope it catches on...

The hospital is short sighted, the subsidized housing is the worst... idea... ever...

I got a VERY similar same email response from Bob Brown as did Oldmanladyluck

'Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the future of Euclid Avenue in Midtown. The City continues to support the vision of Euclid Avenue in Midtown as a place for mixed-use development, with offices, housing and retail, in a pedestrian-oriented/ transit-oriented development. We are confident that the recently proposed uses can be designed and sited in a manner that will contribute to realizing this vision for Euclid Avenue. We will continue working to pursue development that is in accordance with the plan and the zoning for Midtown. Please feel free to get back to me if you have further comments. Again, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.'

Sure, you can do biomedical research in our new technology center, as long as it's not this or this or this or this or this or this because there's a restaraunt downstairs from your lab. I know biomed isn't all Resident Evil, which was a poor metaphor on my part, but I used to be in the business of cleaning up after this stuff and you don't want it above a restaraunt even if it's a million miles from Resident Evil. Manufacturing, even of innocuous little devices, involves all kinds of hazardous chemicals. Maybe 350 days out of the year they don't need the special solvent, but sometimes they do. So if they can't ever use their special solvent, they're not going to locate here.

If we're going to go after biomed, let's do it. This isn't the way to do it. High end research likes to be off on its own... it's the one instance where suburban style segregated land use really makes sense. There are also some intellectual property issues bearing on this which I don't want to get into, but trust me not much of this biomed stuff is going on top of a restaraunt. It just isn't a nutritious part of your mixed-use breakfast.

The entire plan we're discussing, if that's the plan, is bunk. Are they attempting to plan "biomedical cluster" with residents scattered throughout, and not have a single hazmat consultant at the table? I don't think that's wise, and I don't think the end result will have many takers on the commercial or residential ends.

And the idea that these workers will ride a bus that only goes down Euclid is laughable. So funny I could cry.

Sorry, I can't resist...with my best Joe Pesci impersonation:

So you thought I was funny when I rode the #6 to go to school/downtown? Funny, like how, like a clown?!?!

:shoot:

:-)

I did that too, but I'm a freak who lived, worked, and went to school on Euclid Avenue and who loves transit. I don't think for a minute that a hospital full of suburban workers is going to mimic my habits or yours. What I meant by the quoted statement is that the BRT only serves to link attractions that are located on or near Euclid Avenue. Unless you live on Euclid (ding ding ding let's build residential) it plays no part in getting you home from work. If it gives you a 2-seat 2-hour trip to Strongsville... so what? It's not a commuter line and nobody's going to use it for that... unless both ends of the "commute" somehow involve Euclid Avenue.

I with you BizBiz. Agreed on almost all of your points. Good point about the visitors/families. I will add that these hospitals have rotational shifts working around the clock, so it is not a business development where the employees all disappear to the suburbs after 5 p.m.

Also agree with McCleveland that the subsidized housing is the much more troubling development proposed for Midtown in the past few weeks. Terrible, terrible idea, especially considering that the location (unlike the location proposed for the Hospital) is ripe for residential development or at least REALISTICALLY could be within the next 10-15 years.

Man... somebody better tell these people to stop building the johns Hopkins science and technology park complete with restaurants, retail, and housing. These people might all die. Ditto for the East River Science park in Manhattan. We definitely should make sure we stay away from doing anything like this.

Man... somebody better tell these people to stop building the johns Hopkins science and technology park complete with restaurants, retail, and housing. These people might all die. Ditto for the East River Science park in Manhattan. We definitely should make sure we stay away from doing anything like this.

East River Science Park or Fifth Avenue Science Park? They made a choice and they made it for a reason. The Johns Hopkins plan, based on their aerial rendering and description, is intended primarily as a job site. If you look at where they're placing it, it's off to the side of the university in Baltimore's downtown-university duality... it's not directly between them! That's where main street goes!

Baltimore's is also promoted as a modern industrial park with one incidental bullet point about residential and services. It isn't clear how or if that aspect will work out, or whether they've put much thought into it at all. We haven't, so I'm not sure they have either.

Is either city expecting a project like that to remake its main thoroghfare into an active pedestrian zone? I don't think they are, but I haven't been following their news. A lot of these issues I'm raising are context-dependent. Is this plan better than a stick in the eye? Yes it is. Is it better than losing 500 jobs to Morocco? Indeed. But those are insane benchmarks to use, when we just spent a billion dollars rebuilding Euclid Avenue specifically for pedestrians, and these developments could go anywhere in Cleveland besides that street.

Sure, you can do biomedical research in our new technology center, as long as it's not this or this or this or this or this or this because there's a restaraunt downstairs from your lab. I know biomed isn't all Resident Evil, which was a poor metaphor on my part, but I used to be in the business of cleaning up after this stuff and you don't want it above a restaraunt even if it's a million miles from Resident Evil. Manufacturing, even of innocuous little devices, involves all kinds of hazardous chemicals. Maybe 350 days out of the year they don't need the special solvent, but sometimes they do. So if they can't ever use their special solvent, they're not going to locate here.

If we're going to go after biomed, let's do it. This isn't the way to do it. High end research likes to be off on its own... it's the one instance where suburban style segregated land use really makes sense. There are also some intellectual property issues bearing on this which I don't want to get into, but trust me not much of this biomed stuff is going on top of a restaraunt. It just isn't a nutritious part of your mixed-use breakfast.

The entire plan we're discussing, if that's the plan, is bunk. Are they attempting to plan "biomedical cluster" with residents scattered throughout, and not have a single hazmat consultant at the table? I don't think that's wise, and I don't think the end result will have many takers on the commercial or residential ends.

I'm in the area of biomedical/chemical research and am familiar with all the regulations, but I have to say I don't really understand why you think they have to be segregated (not trying to pick a fight here). As long as food for sale isn't transported in the same elevator or what not as lab stuff, there isn't a problem. As long as the organic chemistry or infectious diseases labs are on the top floor, there's no problem.

I'm in the area of biomedical/chemical research and am familiar with all the regulations, but I have to say I don't really understand why you think they have to be segregated (not trying to pick a fight here). As long as food for sale isn't transported in the same elevator or what not as lab stuff, there isn't a problem. As long as the organic chemistry or infectious diseases labs are on the top floor, there's no problem.

Not trying to fight, but do you do your biochemical research in a residential building? And that part about "as long as food for sale isn't..." comes into play more than you'd think. A lot more than you'd think. In fact, you don't even want to think about it.

All I'm saying is that these two goals we have, for the exact same place, aren't 100% compatible. I'm not claiming they're 100% in-compatible, I'm claiming there's enough of an issue there that... given the context... we should reconsider these plans.

I'm in the area of biomedical/chemical research and am familiar with all the regulations, but I have to say I don't really understand why you think they have to be segregated (not trying to pick a fight here). As long as food for sale isn't transported in the same elevator or what not as lab stuff, there isn't a problem. As long as the organic chemistry or infectious diseases labs are on the top floor, there's no problem.

Not trying to fight, but do you do your biochemical research in a residential building? And that part about "as long as food for sale isn't..." comes into play more than you'd think. A lot more than you'd think. In fact, you don't even want to think about it.

All I'm saying is that these two goals we have, for the exact same place, aren't 100% compatible. I'm not claiming they're 100% in-compatible, I'm claiming there's enough of an issue there that... given the context... we should reconsider these plans.

I get what you're saying, and no, I don't live in the building I work in (although as a graduate student, that's debatable :(). However, very sick hospital patients sleep just across the street from my building. My dorm in undergrad was just across the Adelbert bridge. Even if a restaurant and a lab aren't in exactly the same building, they can co-exist in a small area.

On July 2nd, the Ohio Housing Finance Agency announced tax credit awards for 3 CHN affordable housing projects--the maximum number of awards to a single developer allowed by the State. The projects represent 138 affordable housing units for low-income families, chronically homeless individuals and young women aging out of foster care. The announcements included 39 tax credit awards statewide.

CHN funded projects include:

Cleveland Green Homes II — 45 single-family homesCHN will acquire vacant, abandoned homes in Cleveland’s six Strategic Investment Initiative areas, renovating the homes using Green Communities standards adopted by Enterprise Community Partners. Three of the 45 homes will be new, fully handicap-accessible homes. Combined with two projects that received Tax Credits last year (Cleveland Green Homes and Cleveland Green Homes East) these projects will add a total of 121 affordable, single-family green homes to CHN’s Lease Purchase portfolio. The Lease Purchase program allows families who could not otherwise achieve homeownership to lease a home at an affordable rate with the option to purchase after 15 years of responsible residency. The State’s funding announcement of Emerald Alliance V (CHN’s fifth permanent supportive housing project located at 7515 Euclid Avenue), marks a combined investment of $25 million dollars by CHN in this once blighted section of Euclid Avenue.

Emerald Alliance V – 70 apartments for chronically homelessCHN was also awarded Tax Credits to build a 70-unit apartment building at 7515 Euclid Avenue for chronically homeless individuals. Part of Cuyahoga County’s Housing First Initiative, the project represents CHN’s fifth permanent supportive housing project in Cleveland done in collaboration with experienced partners EDEN, Inc. and Mental Health Services. Based on national best-practice models, Housing First seeks to end long-term chronic homelessness among single individuals. The model is demonstrating success both nationally and locally. The local model has seen just 1% of Housing First residents return to homelessness.

The State’s funding announcement of Emerald Alliance V (CHN’s fifth permanent supportive housing project located at 7515 Euclid Avenue), marks a combined investment of $25 million dollars by CHN in this once blighted section of Euclid Avenue.

Independence Place — 23 apartments for homeless youthA partnership with the YWCA will allow CHN to develop permanent supportive housing for young women aging out of foster care. Twenty three units will be developed on the second floor of the YWCA building on Prospect Avenue near East 40th. The YWCA is the owner and manager while CHN is the developer and supervising property manager.

The State’s funding announcement of Emerald Alliance V (CHN’s fifth permanent supportive housing project located at 7515 Euclid Avenue), marks a combined investment of $25 million dollars by CHN in this once blighted section of Euclid Avenue.

Boy.... we owe the State a solid for fixing the 'blight' with this project. It should spur other meaningful investment in the area. Plus, the BRT will efficiently shuttle the panhandlers to and from public square and other parts of downtown. I see nothing but positives. :drunk:

Hts44121, could not agree more. Absolutely the worst possible development to go there. I'm not going to argue that you need to have these sorts of services, but you also need to protect your public investment. CHN has property on Chester, a block away from the Health Line. There is absolutely no reason to build this on Euclid other than to satisfy some misconceived notion of status for the people in charge of CHN's mission.

The City should get involved and basically not allow this kind of development on the Euclid Corridor. Of course, the City will probably is pushing for it, so whatever. All I can do is shake my head.

The States funding announcement of Emerald Alliance V (CHNs fifth permanent supportive housing project located at 7515 Euclid Avenue), marks a combined investment of $25 million dollars by CHN in this once blighted section of Euclid Avenue.

Boy.... we owe the State a solid for fixing the 'blight' with this project. It should spur other meaningful investment in the area. Plus, the BRT will efficiently shuttle the panhandlers to and from public square and other parts of downtown. I see nothing but positives. :drunk:

At first I thought 327 was over-reacting when he went off about the psychiatric hospital on 55th, but that, with this? Oy vey. Just what you want to re-establish the former grandeur of Cleveland's primary corridor btwn UC and downtown. Methodone clinic anyone?

If my addition is correct, the housing mentioned here only equates to about 150 new low-income residents in the area. If this is drawn in contrast to other proposed development, I think everyone is over-reacting.

If my addition is correct, the housing mentioned here only equates to about 150 new low-income residents in the area. If this is drawn in contrast to other proposed development, I think everyone is over-reacting.

The shear number of low income residents not withstanding, my issue is the stigma this will put on potential business in the area.

isn't there already low income housing in Cleveland? Maybe I don't understand the difference, but it would seem to me that market forces in Cleveland have created a good deal of low and moderate income options for housing.

^Yes, there is an abundance of low income housing around this area, which is why we are so heated over this decision. Why the FRACK put this on Euclid? The same Euclid we just spent $400 million tax dollars on? The same Euclid with so much potential, including in Midtown?

isn't there already low income housing in Cleveland? Maybe I don't understand the difference, but it would seem to me that market forces in Cleveland have created a good deal of low and moderate income options for housing.

Yes, there is. A Lot, too. The permanent supportive housing model that is being discussed here goes beyond just being low income housing, though. It is a model of housing that is meant to provide people who have been chronically homeless with a stable housing situation first and foremost, and access to social services and the rest later. I really like the model. I wish it wasn't being placed along Euclid Ave, however.

"Yes, there is. A Lot, too. The permanent supportive housing model that is being discussed here goes beyond just being low income housing, though. It is a model of housing that is meant to provide people who have been chronically homeless with a stable housing situation first and foremost, and access to social services and the rest later. I really like the model. I wish it wasn't being placed along Euclid Ave, however."

Midtown is part of four different wards. The councilpeople are: Joe Cimperman, Phyllis Cleveland, T.J. Dow, and Mamie Mitchell. Cimperman's district does not go far enough east to touch the proposed developments on Euclid. He is, however, the city council representative on the Planning Commission, and thus still worth contacting about this. I've written all four. Only Cimperman responded (his response was to contact the other three). Anyone who wants the letter I sent is more than welcome to it. Just PM me and I'll send it to you.

I still don't understand the frustration here ... The number of affordable housing units in the Gordon Square Arts District exceeds the numbers here; many of those units are directly over the storefronts, and development there seems to be anything but stigmatized.

As X noted, this is a model that actually provides a lot of additional support services and transitioning individuals out of poverty; this is not Caprini Green going up on Euclid. This is 70 units for single people ... 70 residents are going to destroy development opportunities along Euclid? I know I'll probably get lynched, but I think this is a potentially good location for this type of project. Access to reliable frequent mass transit service that connects the two largest employment centers in town seems like a no-brainer when trying to transition people out of extreme poverty. The program already boasts a 99% success rate in moving people permanently out of homelessness; I can only think that access to mass transit improves the odds for these people. From a social services perspective, I think it's actually pretty spot-on.

From a community development standpoint, I can't really say what adverse impact this will have on the corridor. You guys could be absolutely right. But the sheer VOLUME of frontage along Euclid that needs to be filled leads me to believe that this is not going to hamper the overall development of the corridor. Even if you had the rather robust development demand going on downtown, without a credit crunch or global financial crisis, and even if you focused exclusively on renovating buildings and filling gaps between Public Square and E. 55th Street, you're looking at years and years of work ... I don't think 20 years would be out of the question. Extend that development effort to the border of East Cleveland ... we have a TON of space to play with.

The fact is, no one has really been clamoring for development opportunities between E. 55th and the E. 70s. And I can't imagine that fallow lots and crumbling factories were really going to attract developers in a way that new housing (albeit low-income) and a major healthcare institution (albeit in the over-stigmatized field of mental health) can't. Increased ridership, eyes on the street, daytime and evening population in a currently largely abandoned swath of land ... what am I missing?

I think we should focus our efforts more on demanding quality design standards for the project and ongoing upkeep of the corridor. To me, advocating zoning conformity, inclusion of ground-level retail, avoidance of pointless dead spaces, an outright ban on surface parking lots fronting the street, etc ... these seem more reasonable arguments to make. Going in with guns blazing about why these projects are horrible for Euclid may just ring shrill for council leaders who've been around for DECADES where few wanted to develop anything in this area.

Final point, to suggest that mental health and transitional housing services are good things but should be tucked away where they won't offend anyone with money ... well, that strikes me as elitist. Not trying to name-call here, and I recognize people's very valid concerns, but I do think we need to stop and think about who we're developing this corridor FOR ... a representative population of the city of Cleveland or a wealthy sliver of population who may be interested in living here in a decade or so.

The fact is, no one has really been clamoring for development opportunities between E. 55th and the E. 70s.

I can say with reasonable certainty this is not true. There have been more than a few companies and developers looking at this area.

I don't think people are saying either service should be tucked away. In fact, Chester is a block away, has a bus line and could easily accommodate the housing. The Mental Health facility seems like a shame if only because the property represents one of the few significant pieces of land that has been amassed inside the city (by the CDC) and we are turning it over to the County instead of allowing private investment dollars to go there. (and there have been attempts by bio-tech companies to go there).

What is really frustrating to me is that you have a ton of (federal)tax dollars going into the Euclid Corridor project that will now have been spent in order to create more (city and county) tax dollar spending on service providers. At some point someone is going to have to make some money to sustain these types of things as well as convince somebody who has a salary to live in the city in order to tax them to pay for these types of things. However, nobody who is running a business will be too excited about putting their business next to a shelter for the terminally homeless and my guess is that people looking to move into the city will now have more reason to avoid this area as a possible landing spot than they did in the past, despite the convenience of being located on the Health Line.

If I'm a Case Student I'm sticking it out on the Hill instead of heading closer to downtown (thus spending my parent's money in Cleveland Heights rather than Cleveland proper).

Finally, I don't think it's about filling the gap between Public Sqr and E. 55th. You have University Circle and CSU as two potential building blocks now connected the Euclid corridor project. Getting Case Students and CSU students to co-mingle with the Clinic, downtown and U.C. would do a good deal more than trying to get companies from downtown to spread out onto the Euclid (companies that tend to think Cleveland stops at e.13th anyway)

^I would certainly like to know which developers and tech firms have been looking to do something in midtown. Could you be specific and also let us know how serious each developer was and what obstacles prevented them from going forward (other than the credit crunch).

The fact is, no one has really been clamoring for development opportunities between E. 55th and the E. 70s.

I can say with reasonable certainty this is not true. There have been more than a few companies and developers looking at this area.

I don't think people are saying either service should be tucked away. In fact, Chester is a block away, has a bus line and could easily accommodate the housing. The Mental Health facility seems like a shame if only because the property represents one of the few significant pieces of land that has been amassed inside the city (by the CDC) and we are turning it over to the County instead of allowing private investment dollars to go there. (and there have been attempts by bio-tech companies to go there).

What is really frustrating to me is that you have a ton of (federal)tax dollars going into the Euclid Corridor project that will now have been spent in order to create more (city and county) tax dollar spending on service providers. At some point someone is going to have to make some money to sustain these types of things as well as convince somebody who has a salary to live in the city in order to tax them to pay for these types of things. However, nobody who is running a business will be too excited about putting their business next to a shelter for the terminally homeless and my guess is that people looking to move into the city will now have more reason to avoid this area as a possible landing spot than they did in the past, despite the convenience of being located on the Health Line.

If I'm a Case Student I'm sticking it out on the Hill instead of heading closer to downtown (thus spending my parent's money in Cleveland Heights rather than Cleveland proper).

Finally, I don't think it's about filling the gap between Public Sqr and E. 55th. You have University Circle and CSU as two potential building blocks now connected the Euclid corridor project. Getting Case Students and CSU students to co-mingle with the Clinic, downtown and U.C. would do a good deal more than trying to get companies from downtown to spread out onto the Euclid (companies that tend to think Cleveland stops at e.13th anyway)

I think you're underestimating you people. They are a bit more "gritty" than we assume they are. Not everyone wants to live in the 'burbs.

I've been looking at homes in Hough and I've seen more than my share of young, white, Asian, gay, young families (regardless of race) out looking at homes. Some are serious as I've seen peeps with contractors sizing up homes.

^I would certainly like to know which developers and tech firms have been looking to do something in midtown. Could you be specific and also let us know how serious each developer was and what obstacles prevented them from going forward (other than the credit crunch).

I think you make some very good points, weepinwillow, and sorry if I understated development interest in that stretch. I realize that MidTown has done a good job of focusing attention on the neighborhood and drawing in interest for business relocation. That should not be underestimated, and I think we will see major holes plugged within that stretch, although I still believe, best-case scenario, we're looking at 10 years before it starts to feel like a wholly continuous corridor.

Just two notes, and beyond that I more or less agree. First, I cannot for one imagine that the area between E. 55 and the Clinic are going to be the common meeting ground of Case and CSU students anytime soon. I could be absolutely wrong, and I would definitely love to see something mixed-use and student-oriented somewhere in that area, but with so many gaps along the streetscape, I doubt that the East 60s are going to be at the top of the list for a development of that sort, at least not yet. I just can't imagine Case students who choose Cedar Fairmount or Coventry over University Circle would be willing to move down to the East 60s or 70s unless the development was absolutely spectacular. At least not yet.

I would be more inclined to focus our resources to build out residential in the 100s and 110s to try to lure kids down the hill and in the 20s and 30s to build the scant residential base of Cleveland State (and hopefully to fill the ugly surface lots on Prospect in the 30s to shore up the beautiful existing housing stock there). After that, the next most obvious connector to me would be to plug the upper 40s and lower 50s with mixed-use retail and residential and rehab some of the existing building stock; you could do a spectacular, HUGE-scaled project in a one-block radius from the Agora alone. Whatever we do, it makes sense to make it asset-based, and I am not sure if I see the assets that we would be building from in the East 60s or 70s.

Second, do keep in mind that this is assisted living, not a shelter. This is not going to look 2100 Lakeside nor like Riverside or Lakeside. This type of development is usually not fancy, but the ones that have been set up in Cleveland have at the very least looked more like traditional apartment complexes than shelters or "projects" (check out http://www.socfdncleveland.org/OurFocusAreas/SupportiveHousing/HousingFirst/tabid/310/Default.aspx and http://www.edeninc.org/housingfirst.html).

I work next to one downtown (1850 Superior), and it's actually a really cute building that was recently renovated. I don't think the average Clevelander knows that these are low-income facilities at all (let alone the suburbanites), so I don't think they defacto stigmatize a neighborhood (I certainly don't think the Famicos building is adversely impacting either the Avenue District or the Quarter).

That's why I think design standards are key; advocating that they conform to existing zoning regulations and create some kind of ground-floor retail could be pivotal in how a passing suburbanite views them.

While I personally am also still unsure about all these new "plans" for midtown, I have to say that I didn't know the 1850 Superior building was low-income housing, and I live 4 blocks away! I mean, my neighborhood is the PERFECT example of mixed income housing. We've got our townhomes, the Reserve Square market-rate apartments, St. Clair place apartments (Section 8, correct?) the CMHA Bohn Tower, and the transitional homeless shelter (still not sure quite what the definition of it is) near E. 15th and Superior. I guess perhaps we'd all be more comfortable with these midtown plans if there were some market-rate real estate announced as well, but remember, the CMHA and Section 8 housing was in my 'hood way before I was!

We all want to see this city succeed. We all want the best options for future residents and businesses along the Corridor. However, my biggest fear about the developments under scrutiny (by us) is that they will hinder the future growth of the area. With the investment put in by the taxpayers into this corridor, it should be able to be enjoyed by all, and not just the affluent. But will these developments stifle future developments that have not even come to the table for the corridor yet? I guess only time will tell.

^I would certainly like to know which developers and tech firms have been looking to do something in midtown. Could you be specific and also let us know how serious each developer was and what obstacles prevented them from going forward (other than the credit crunch).

I think this is better left to MidTown people to discuss, as I don't know what is common knowledge, and what was more underwraps. I can think of two inkling's of projects one dealing with the piece of land on the other side of the bridge that would have been health oriented and another one that could have been housing or office close to where Billie Lawless' talking chicken was.

I still don't understand the frustration here ... The number of affordable housing units in the Gordon Square Arts District exceeds the numbers here; many of those units are directly over the storefronts, and development there seems to be anything but stigmatized.

As X noted, this is a model that actually provides a lot of additional support services and transitioning individuals out of poverty; this is not Caprini Green going up on Euclid. This is 70 units for single people ... 70 residents are going to destroy development opportunities along Euclid? I know I'll probably get lynched, but I think this is a potentially good location for this type of project. Access to reliable frequent mass transit service that connects the two largest employment centers in town seems like a no-brainer when trying to transition people out of extreme poverty. The program already boasts a 99% success rate in moving people permanently out of homelessness; I can only think that access to mass transit improves the odds for these people. From a social services perspective, I think it's actually pretty spot-on.

From a community development standpoint, I can't really say what adverse impact this will have on the corridor. You guys could be absolutely right. But the sheer VOLUME of frontage along Euclid that needs to be filled leads me to believe that this is not going to hamper the overall development of the corridor. Even if you had the rather robust development demand going on downtown, without a credit crunch or global financial crisis, and even if you focused exclusively on renovating buildings and filling gaps between Public Square and E. 55th Street, you're looking at years and years of work ... I don't think 20 years would be out of the question. Extend that development effort to the border of East Cleveland ... we have a TON of space to play with.

The fact is, no one has really been clamoring for development opportunities between E. 55th and the E. 70s. And I can't imagine that fallow lots and crumbling factories were really going to attract developers in a way that new housing (albeit low-income) and a major healthcare institution (albeit in the over-stigmatized field of mental health) can't. Increased ridership, eyes on the street, daytime and evening population in a currently largely abandoned swath of land ... what am I missing?

I think we should focus our efforts more on demanding quality design standards for the project and ongoing upkeep of the corridor. To me, advocating zoning conformity, inclusion of ground-level retail, avoidance of pointless dead spaces, an outright ban on surface parking lots fronting the street, etc ... these seem more reasonable arguments to make. Going in with guns blazing about why these projects are horrible for Euclid may just ring shrill for council leaders who've been around for DECADES where few wanted to develop anything in this area.

Final point, to suggest that mental health and transitional housing services are good things but should be tucked away where they won't offend anyone with money ... well, that strikes me as elitist. Not trying to name-call here, and I recognize people's very valid concerns, but I do think we need to stop and think about who we're developing this corridor FOR ... a representative population of the city of Cleveland or a wealthy sliver of population who may be interested in living here in a decade or so.

You make several very good points I can agree with....However....Since when has wanting Cleveland's grand and main....and very storied avenue to have something of the best quality in design and what it offers to promote a new population in that area......become about being elitist?

It seems that society is soooooooo used to shooting for way below zero these days, that when someone promotes ideas or values that are AT or a little above zero, say ten degrees above....they're accused of being an 'elitist' It is as though we have lowered standards or expectations on everything in ever way..and when they get back to average... Someone thinks it is snobbish. My how complacency helps foster that attitude.

The fact is, you cannot deny the stigma attached to some of the projects proposed in this area. And, while there is a need for these institutions, they do not need to be located on what will beacon as our main thoroughfare to the whole world.

Do we want to have that part of Euclid be a tribute to societal dysfunctional treatment? There is no nobility in boasting such social failure. But, as for being 'elite' Euclid was once one of the richest avenues in the world... Simply wishing some institutions be located just off the main avenue is hardly being elitist. To do other than the best this showcase avenue can be, is insulting to the grand history of the avenue. There is nothing wrong with wanting to aspire for something more for this avenue...more than mediocrity.

What next? Wal-Mart, Lowes, and Taco Bell parked right next door to Severance! HALL, that is....

I don't think demanding good design is elitist ... particularly when that design has the interest of a cross-section of society in mind (thinking of the "Design for the Other 90%" concept). But there is a big difference between demanding good design and outright protesting particular lot uses. Everyone here is entitled to their personal opinions about best use and about best location for the proposed projects. But saying "Transitional housing doesn't belong on Euclid Avenue period" is not the same as saying "Said housing should front the sidewalk and be between 5 and 7 stories in height", etc. And yes, sorry, but I do think it's elitist to say, yes, we want a row of million-dollar townhomes here, but no, all people with mental health issues and who are homeless, go directly to Cedar Avenue, do not pass Go. I absolutely understand your points, and maybe you're right that your views are just in the best interest of the corridor ... but you can be right and still be elitist :)

Frankly, I don't want another Millionaire's Row. The most successful nabes in Cleveland have wide income distributions, with wealthy people living in close proximity to people of VERY limited means, and that lack of pretention is one of the things I love about this city. The last decade has seen a steady investment in places in downtown, Tremont, Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway, despite the abundance of public housing projects, social service organizations and low-income populations; meanwhile, Bratenahl lost more than 5% of its population. I'm not saying that the presence of disadvantaged populations has made them more desirable. But I am saying that an area can still be desirable even with these residents, and that the absence of these residents hardly ensures success for the corridor. Personally, I would rather show off a main street that welcomes everyone, regardless of their background, than to hold land fallow with a dream of creating a Magnificent Mile or recreating a Millionaire's Row.

As for being worried about design, I am too. We should definitely be demanding the utmost design standards possible, both to begin to build a contiguous corridor of mixed uses AND so that all residents, employees, etc., along Euclid Avenue enjoy the maximum benefit they can from the street and from other tenants.

Who's said they want a Millionaire's Row? It's a good strawman, but not an argument anyone has made. People are saying that it is unlikely that we will have a the kind of neighborhood you say you want, one with a wide distribution of incomes, if we start with a series of low income housing projects and a mental health facility. You may not agree, fine, but don't misrepresent what people are saying.

To be fair, I want a millionaire's row. I agree that having a mix of income levels living in close proximity works better than sectioning off whole groups, I just don't think wanting some groups off the Euclid Corridor is out of bounds. In an ideal world I guess the market takes care of this, but perhaps we don't have that kind of luxury yet.

The most successful nabes in Cleveland have wide income distributions, with wealthy people living in close proximity to people of VERY limited means, and that lack of pretention is one of the things I love about this city. The last decade has seen a steady investment in places in downtown, Tremont, Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway, despite the abundance of public housing projects, social service organizations and low-income populations; meanwhile, Bratenahl lost more than 5% of its population. I'm not saying that the presence of disadvantaged populations has made them more desirable. But I am saying that an area can still be desirable even with these residents, and that the absence of these residents hardly ensures success for the corridor.

Some could argue the success of these neighborhoods. I know many see the abundance of public housing etc., as having really held these neighborhoods back, and a deterrent to moving into a home there. I know many from out of town (while loving the city) have had a hard time looking at these neighborhoods as livable places due to this. I have witnessed since the 80's people screaming about gentrification. Yet why is w. 25th street basically the same as when I was interning for Ohio City Developement 15 yrs ago?

8shades you make some good points, but when you say "representative population of the city, I think that way of thinking is only helping to determine what the population will continue to be (the population is not representative of the people employed in the city, most of those people live in the suburbs). With what seems like an overabundance of public and subsidized housing everywhere, and poor and rundown neighborhoods, and social service agencies, how could the city be anything but representative of a poor population. I guess because I have seen the opposite here in DC and witnessed the MASS gentrification that DC has experienced in order to cater to its white collar crowd, and while succeeding in drawing large scale development into the city, and lowering the murder rate by shifting some of that population to PG county (MD), there really is nowhere affordable here unless you live in a dangerous, non-gentrified area.

Cleveland is not in danger of such things since it is a totally different set of dynamics, but I also don't think that everything has to cater to the poor population, or that it is elitist to want different or to change the dynamic of some of these areas (that have so much potential). I for one would like to see the day when Cleveland is not on the list of poorest cities. I realize shifting this around isn't really changing anything (although there is a pretty big disparity, between the city and the suburbs), but you also don't have to only cater to that population.

Bratenahl losing population doesn't really tell me anything since most every part of the Cleveland area has lost population. I think the most significant loses have been in inner ring "former" mid income areas due to the influx of "lower incomes". Why do you think Medina and Loraine County's have continued to grow when the region has not?

I don't disagree with any of that. I am equally hopeful about a repopulation of the city. I guess my confusion lies in forumers' seeming belief that a mental health facility and SEVENTY units of transitional housing are going to deter development of a six-mile corridor (or even the one-mile section between E. 55th and E. 81st). I absolutely understand people's concerns that this will stigmatize Euclid Ave. (or the upper Midtown component of it), but it just seems like a disproportionate response to the scale of the project. 70 units of housing. To people who will be receiving significant support services and will very likely appreciate moving from shelters or the streets into new and clean units. Who will likely maintain the units and be good neighbors and citizens. 70 units on a street that could pretty easily accommodate a couple thousand additional residents. A fraction of the units that are going up in the Uptown area. A fraction of the units in the new apartment complex near CSU in Lower Midtown. A fraction of the units getting built out along Lower Euclid. About equivalent to the new luxury condos and apartments going up in "Collegetown".

I wholeheartedly believe everyone here is welcome to their opinions on the topic; from my perspective, I just want to make sure that when we hear words like "mental institution" or "housing for the formerly homeless", we're not being reactionary or losing a sense of perspective about the development happening elsewhere along the corridor. It is and will be mixed-income. Given the current market environment, I applaud that projects are moving forward downtown and University Circle, let alone in a less-proven area for residential properties.

And willyboy is right ... we don't have to worry about mass gentrification anytime soon ... barring some gigantic shift in demographic patterns, not in the next next several decades. But I continue to believe that this is the upside of the slow market growth of the industrial Midwest; we have the opportunity to plan for gentrification well before it happens and to ensure that low-income individuals are not pushed out of areas with the strongest potential for out-pricing.

I don't think demanding good design is elitist ... particularly when that design has the interest of a cross-section of society in mind (thinking of the "Design for the Other 90%" concept). But there is a big difference between demanding good design and outright protesting particular lot uses. Everyone here is entitled to their personal opinions about best use and about best location for the proposed projects. But saying "Transitional housing doesn't belong on Euclid Avenue period" is not the same as saying "Said housing should front the sidewalk and be between 5 and 7 stories in height", etc. And yes, sorry, but I do think it's elitist to say, yes, we want a row of million-dollar townhomes here, but no, all people with mental health issues and who are homeless, go directly to Cedar Avenue, do not pass Go. I absolutely understand your points, and maybe you're right that your views are just in the best interest of the corridor ... but you can be right and still be elitist :)

Frankly, I don't want another Millionaire's Row. The most successful nabes in Cleveland have wide income distributions, with wealthy people living in close proximity to people of VERY limited means, and that lack of pretention is one of the things I love about this city. The last decade has seen a steady investment in places in downtown, Tremont, Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway, despite the abundance of public housing projects, social service organizations and low-income populations; meanwhile, Bratenahl lost more than 5% of its population. I'm not saying that the presence of disadvantaged populations has made them more desirable. But I am saying that an area can still be desirable even with these residents, and that the absence of these residents hardly ensures success for the corridor. Personally, I would rather show off a main street that welcomes everyone, regardless of their background, than to hold land fallow with a dream of creating a Magnificent Mile or recreating a Millionaire's Row.

As for being worried about design, I am too. We should definitely be demanding the utmost design standards possible, both to begin to build a contiguous corridor of mixed uses AND so that all residents, employees, etc., along Euclid Avenue enjoy the maximum benefit they can from the street and from other tenants.

Who is talking about having a millionaires row? I only referred back to that era to illustrate what the difference is between 'elite' and an upper middle to middle environment--or above average and mediocrity---which is all I suggested that should be the aspiration for this avenue. That is hardly elitist.

I am really discouraged how many people have bastardized that word and associated it with all that is bad or 'somehow' anti-lower income....... Just as I dislike how the word "liberal" has been bastardized to associate anything left of center as being the road to hell. It is not being 'elitist' as in your use of that word, to aspire for more than mediocrity. I don't have a stupendous income, and one does not need to have one to have higher aspirations than mediocre.

Personally, I am not flat out opposed to such places you are saying people are flat out opposed to. I just feel that in a well planned environment, they could stand to occupy not the showcase avenue that will define a lot of what Cleveland is, or aspires to be, no matter what walk of life the participants who make it happen, come from.

I understand about stronger neighborhoods encompassing a diverse income make-up, etc, but we can have that on this avenue....without placing some of these institutions right on it.

I agree with you a thousand percent that if such will be the happening on Euclid, that it should be well designed as you so well outlined. But the bottom line is...that if we want to make this a diverse avenue in every stretch of the way...Future plans cannot keep catering to mostly one half, and the half that is often catered to is not offering the broader and diverse demographic I would envision for this or any segment of the avenue. But like you said.. if it is bound to be what it will be, then by all means, promote well designs....not 'suburbs-in-the-city' designs.

The most successful nabes in Cleveland have wide income distributions, with wealthy people living in close proximity to people of VERY limited means, and that lack of pretention is one of the things I love about this city. The last decade has seen a steady investment in places in downtown, Tremont, Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway, despite the abundance of public housing projects, social service organizations and low-income populations; meanwhile, Bratenahl lost more than 5% of its population. I'm not saying that the presence of disadvantaged populations has made them more desirable. But I am saying that an area can still be desirable even with these residents, and that the absence of these residents hardly ensures success for the corridor.

Some could argue the success of these neighborhoods. I know many see the abundance of public housing etc., as having really held these neighborhoods back, and a deterrent to moving into a home there. I know many from out of town (while loving the city) have had a hard time looking at these neighborhoods as livable places due to this. I have witnessed since the 80's people screaming about gentrification. Yet why is w. 25th street basically the same as when I was interning for Ohio City Developement 15 yrs ago?

8shades you make some good points, but when you say "representative population of the city, I think that way of thinking is only helping to determine what the population will continue to be (the population is not representative of the people employed in the city, most of those people live in the suburbs). With what seems like an overabundance of public and subsidized housing everywhere, and poor and rundown neighborhoods, and social service agencies, how could the city be anything but representative of a poor population. I guess because I have seen the opposite here in DC and witnessed the MASS gentrification that DC has experienced in order to cater to its white collar crowd, and while succeeding in drawing large scale development into the city, and lowering the murder rate by shifting some of that population to PG county (MD), there really is nowhere affordable here unless you live in a dangerous, non-gentrified area.

Cleveland is not in danger of such things since it is a totally different set of dynamics, but I also don't think that everything has to cater to the poor population, or that it is elitist to want different or to change the dynamic of some of these areas (that have so much potential). I for one would like to see the day when Cleveland is not on the list of poorest cities. I realize shifting this around isn't really changing anything (although there is a pretty big disparity, between the city and the suburbs), but you also don't have to only cater to that population.

Bratenahl losing population doesn't really tell me anything since most every part of the Cleveland area has lost population. I think the most significant loses have been in inner ring "former" mid income areas due to the influx of "lower incomes". Why do you think Medina and Loraine County's have continued to grow when the region has not?

There needs to be a balance.

This is basically what I am saying, all you mention above.

Many seem to forget... How was the stigma attached to low income housing, etc. born? Every legend has a basis of truth.

People, no matter what color, race, income level.... feared dropping property values and safety, when they witness the behavior associated with some people...and NOT all.. (so PLEASE.....don't anyone draw the profiling card...but it only takes one or two apples to spoil a bunch) who are often a part of such communities.

I have lived next to this many times and it is undeniable.....you cannot pretend like it is not a concern or factor in influencing where people want to live. Everytime I was near this..... noise at totally inappropriate hours, inappropriate behavior, lack of simple maintenance on a property, throwing trash on the street, pelting my poor dog with rocks....or worse.

So, maybe a good institution along Euclid should be started to teach some people, who obviously had no parental guidance... how to be good neighbors and behave properly in a communal setting...and not use their freedoms to harm and impose their anti-social behavior upon others---but to help them instead. If people don't respect basic respect unto thy neighbor... I don't want to invest thousands to live next to that.

Again, I am not saying all the above do not know how to function in a healthy functioning neighborhood, but it takes a small spark to start a fire....and to start the attached stigmas. Yes, there are idiots who live everywhere... But I can't deny the fact that I have experienced more of this when I live near low income.

Many will attribute such behavior with the fact that someone is poor.. I agree, it can walk hand in hand (cause/effect)...but maybe it is more about upbringing. When I traveled around the world, I discovered many poor communities that were actually some of the best and charming places--great food too! Just because one is 'poor' does not mean one has to be the kind of persons who are a part of the problems I mentioned above. Pride is free. Doesn't cost a dime... But if you wonder why their is a stigma placed on the lower income, it is obvious.

Is it a fair label? Probably, probably not...Will I get accused of being a "profiler", "racist", "anti poor", "elitist" etc..etc?"...Just because I have a certain standard that desires a more harmonious and peaceful socially redeeming community? Probably...but only by those who do not take the time to actually think about any validity in what I am saying. I will not give up my right to have my thoughts on such an issue, just because they do not conform to what someone else's view of a non elitist, profiler, and the rest of those words above, is. It is easier to label someone than to think. Having said that, I did not label anyone in what I wrote here. I simply pointed out a social stigma attached to low income, etc... that people want to tip toe around and not address as part of an underlying cause why a lot of people have their opinions about low income housing---and the rest of the associated mix---people are concerned of happening on Euclid. I didn't label anyone unfairly.... no more than it is a fair label to label someone else 'elitist' just because they aspire for their neighborhood to have a bit of a higher standard and be a positive example, that would attract those from all walks of life to want to be a part of.

Deer fear humans... and have pretty much become nocturnal animals. Why? Because they fear the hunter, and thus, humans in general. They learn through experiences, just like many people have learned through experience that too often, there are negative attachments to low income housing. Sometimes we can be too politically correct until many of the obvious truths get buried, ignored, and left unabated.

Bottom line.. You are a good neighbor, respect my right to reasonable peaceful living, take pride in your home/neighborhood.. I will do the same. I don't care who you are or where you are from or how much you make. But if not, and you chose to behave poorly. I don't want it. This stuff factors in someone's decision to locate anywhere.

Okay, agreed. And sorry if anyone feels I was using the term "elitist" in a derogatory way. I honestly wasn't. I simply mean favoring the interests of relatively wealthy and secure populations to the exclusion of those of relatively poor and vulnerable populations. Not assigning any negative connotation to wanting to focus attention on the "upper half" ... there are definitely some potential positives to wanting to recruit a group of people with means to this section of Euclid.

But I do feel like the assumption that poor individuals equal noisy, littering and/or criminal residents is a little overarching. The success of this particular model suggests that these particular residents will not likely be "problem residents". And maybe many, many greater Clevelanders DO have these preconceptions and prejudices ... but I don't think that means we should cater to them. There are a variety of avenues for addressing problem residents if they show up ... avenues that are a little less far-reaching than redirecting the project elsewhere.

As for the "good neighbor" program ... Ugh ... Presupposing that poor people need to learn about noise control and proper upkeep of facilities is pretty patronistic. Why people in affordable housing but not people who live in lower Euclid? Or at the very least, a student population that has a lot less vested in maintaining property or curbing their volume? Cleveland Heights tried to launch a very similar "Good Neighbors" program aimed at Section 8 residents (but overlooking the student population in the very same neighborhood) and it was quickly and rightly abandoned. These individuals will already have much in the way of training as a component of the housing program itself; I would recommend we not begin assuming they're going to wreak havoc on the E. 70s before they move in (or before ground is even broken on their building).

I promise to try to be quiet on this thread now (at least for the remainder of the day :)). And sorry if I've hijacked it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion; I guess I've just been discouraged not so much by what people on here are advocating but more by 1. how vehement people seem to be about the projects' dire consequences and 2. how one-sided the discussion seems to be. I guess I'm just surprised is all.

8 Shades...You have not hijacked the thread. I think you make some points well worth discussion. I am not having a go at you. Nor am I saying what I say is the gospel. Your thoughts just sparked a lot of semi-counter thoughts.

Students, section 8, monetarily rich, or challenged, low income, red, white, black, purple, yellow and strawberry, right, center, left of center, right of center...up and down...No matter what the case, indeed, bad neighbors and things that are associated and proven to devalue property, can come from all angles and directions. And, while I acknowledge that, at the same time I cannot, from over and over and over and over experience, deny the reality right before my very eyes... that the places I have most experienced this behavior is near the low income areas. The behavior becomes disproportionate to the population in that given area. I did not profile them ALL to be this way, if you read what I posted. I have friends who have nothing and are wonderful.

If I were a good neighbor living in a low income situation, that defies all these stereo-types, I would be ashamed of those around me who are acting this way making it look bad for many others at the same level. At the same time, I would feel compelled to try and do something about taking responsibility to curb such behavior--because I would not want to be thrown into the mix. And I would not blame someone else, for formulating a negative opinion about that particular environment, if they witness it all the time. I would not blame them or think they were profiling. Those who behave the worse are profiling themselves with their bad behavior that draws negative attention. People judge by actions....all of us have done this, it is only natural. Sometimes it is about being cautious and smart...sometimes it can be presumptuous...but the fact remains, it happens.

When people are given a lot of things without having worked hard to earn it...There tends to be a less than enthusiastic ambition to maintain it. (indeed, this happens at the white collar level too when corporate welfare is abused) I am different because I feel if I do not own something...if I were renting...I would want to take all the better care of it just because of the fact it does not belong to me. And, I would take full responsibility and accountability for any friends I may invite over who may cause any kind of trouble. The reality is, however, I know those with that attitude are the exception when it comes to the average renter..or low income purchaser. They have the money for the payments, but struggle to get what is needed for ongoing upkeep. Should such deny a place to live? No... But...

This sort of decline has started all over again in Warren, Ohio with new low income, less than fair market value homes that were built less than 12 years ago. Already, they are looking shabby (not just because of lack of upkeep..but because they were just downright crapola in quality)..and the behavior follows. Sad for those who are just wanting a clean, safe, comfortable reasonably peaceful place to live. Anti-social illegal neighbor behavior can get you kicked out of the neighborhood in England. And until those who cause a problem learn how to act, they may not return. Imposting bad neighbor behavior on others is not an entitlement, freedom, or right. Its just illegal and wrong.

I think how this relates to this thread is learning why many are opposed to certain kinds of projects along Euclid...and what are some of the breeders of those concerns. At the end of the day, I think everyone, no matter who we are, wants to be proud of Euclid. Those who don't care..well that is what fuels the potential problems.

Note: I don't think I've ever heard a fiery Sound of Ideas (as "fiery" as Sound of Ideas can get, anyway .. maybe a bit of an overstatement) like this one. It's a pretty hot-button issue, but I'm glad discussion is being opened up about this because I think it's necessary.

The Sound of Ideas®Where is Euclid Avenue Headed?Tuesday, July 28, 2009 Topics: Economy, Politics, Health, Other

Cleveland's Euclid Avenue facelift and the corridor's Health Line were originally pitched as economic catalysts that would bring people, money and jobs to the city. Development is happening, but it has taken a turn many didn't expect: Where city business leaders imagined new retail, restaurants and condos, they're instead seeing housing for the homeless and for the elderly and a 14-acre psychiatric hospital. To put it mildly, not everyone's excited. Tuesday morning at 9, we're searching for Euclid Avenue's new identity.

GuestsTom Bierexecutive-in-residence, Levin College of Urban Affairs, Cleveland State UniversityWilliam DenihanCEO, Cuyahoga County Community Mental Health BoardChris WarrenChief of Regional Development, City of Cleveland

good stuff jpop. Its good finally hearing the argument from the people actually involved... I have to say that I was not very receptive to the Hospital when first proposed, but I'm certainly warming up to it.

I personally don't have a problem with mental care facilities. However, I have a serious problem with Bill Denihan not understanding that the same reasons for them deciding to locate there is why it's a horrible choice. Leave our "shovel ready" land alone.

I personally don't have a problem with mental care facilities. However, I have a serious problem with Bill Denihan not understanding that the same reasons for them deciding to locate there is why it's a horrible choice. Leave our "shovel ready" land alone.

there wasn't exactly a line around the block of businesses waiting to develop that shovel ready land. I understand the ultimate vision for the area but while the free market was just, 'dipping it toes in the water' (Bier) the state was ready jump in.

No matter how hard they tried, there is no getting around the stigma associated with a mental hospital. Those are real concerns... the woman who stated she would be scared to ride her bike from Cleveland Heights to downtown is just one voice of likely many. Some suburbanites are already "afraid" to be in Cleveland in the first place; well, here's another reason to be afraid- this time, on our grand corridor, which was recently rehabbed to draw and attract businesses and residents. 500 jobs or not, I guess I'm still not convinced that the general public will buy into this as being a good idea. But time is a tool, and we shall see.

No matter how hard they tried, there is no getting around the stigma associated with a mental hospital. Those are real concerns... the woman who stated she would be scared to ride her bike from Cleveland Heights to downtown is just one voice of likely many. Some suburbanites are already "afraid" to be in Cleveland in the first place; well, here's another reason to be afraid- this time, on our grand corridor, which was recently rehabbed to draw and attract businesses and residents. 500 jobs or not, I guess I'm still not convinced that the general public will buy into this as being a good idea. But time is a tool, and we shall see.

I totally agree. I'm so against both of these going here, it's not even funny.

Honestly, if designed well (big if), I doubt most of the general public will even know what it is. I grew up by a mental hospital. It had zero negative impact on anything. The only thing it did was give the local kids fodder for jokes, about where so and so is going to end up, or jokes about mass break outs by the crazy people... which obviously never happened.

Why? Not everyone who lives in subsidizing housing or owns subsidized housing is bad, careless or doesn't care about the property that they live in or own.

That's like me saying to you, "you didn't grow up in the manner, type of home, neighborhood or status in which I did, so who are you to be worried?"

As opposed to going through all of the reasons again, See the previous 5 pages.

WillyB, my friend, we're going to have to disagree.

I do think that the "development" plans for Euclid along with Prospect and Chester need to looked at again with a fine tooth comb, but I personally think mixed income and diverse areas are much more vibrant appealing and stable than exclusive neighborhoods.

you know what? speaking ideally of course, if the psych hospital uses new, cutting edge urban design, including euclid street level businesses in front like a cafe and shop that perhaps are tied into the hospital and put those folks into public work experiences in them, and if the building form/materials just looks good in general, this can actually be something all clevelanders could be proud of.

i realize that is asking a lot, but as of now the potential is there.

otoh, if they just take some old hospital plans off the shelf and slap it up there, well that's another story and yet another lost opportunity.

realistically, perhaps something like that could at least be met halfway?

Why? Not everyone who lives in subsidizing housing or owns subsidized housing is bad, careless or doesn't care about the property that they live in or own.

That's like me saying to you, "you didn't grow up in the manner, type of home, neighborhood or status in which I did, so who are you to be worried?"

As opposed to going through all of the reasons again, See the previous 5 pages.

WillyB, my friend, we're going to have to disagree.

I do think that the "development" plans for Euclid along with Prospect and Chester need to looked at again with a fine tooth comb, but I personally think mixed income and diverse areas are much more vibrant appealing and stable than exclusive neighborhoods.

Disagree? You asked why, which has been debated for the past 5 pages. The reasoning why many people don't see this as a good fit is given there, the reasons are not suddenly going to be different.

Why? Not everyone who lives in subsidizing housing or owns subsidized housing is bad, careless or doesn't care about the property that they live in or own.

That's like me saying to you, "you didn't grow up in the manner, type of home, neighborhood or status in which I did, so who are you to be worried?"

As opposed to going through all of the reasons again, See the previous 5 pages.

WillyB, my friend, we're going to have to disagree.

I do think that the "development" plans for Euclid along with Prospect and Chester need to looked at again with a fine tooth comb, but I personally think mixed income and diverse areas are much more vibrant appealing and stable than exclusive neighborhoods.

Disagree? You asked why, which has been debated for the past 5 pages. The reasoning why many people don't see this as a good fit is given there, the reasons are not suddenly going to be different.

What the hell just happened here? :wtf: Something been misinterpreted. oye!

Um, ok...... you guys lost me w/ all that quoting, but McCleveland said it best. If its designed well, most wont even know what it is.

Which was referring to the hospital.

as was I.... and I understand that those quotes were in regard to the public housing (which I'm not thrilled about either) However, many on this page, including myself, were very harsh to the Mental Hospital proposal. My point was that if the Hospital is designed right, most won't even know what it is.

The same is true of the public housing. As I indicated previously, CHN's previous transitional housing projects have had relatively high design standards (at least relative to subsidized housing design in general), and I know that they are definitely giving considerable consideration to design standards with this project. Just as with the hospital, the vast majority of commuters are not going to distinguish this housing from student housing around CSU, etc.

I'm probably going to repeat what some of the posters have already said, but my problem with subsidized housing is that they seem have a disproportionate amount of problems than other properties. And it would just be nice to have a really nice area without any fears of that kind of disruption, which I had believed was the point of the Euclid Avenue Project. When I think mixed use neighborhoods, which was what this project was supposed to encourage, I do NOT think of housing projects. I would never move my fledgling business into an area where my employees and I would have, in addition to other stresses, to worry about our neighbors. A lot of money went into this project, and it was supposed to cater to the middle and upper class for once.

Of course lots of nice people live in Section 8 housing and lots of jerks live in private residence. But let's be realisitic. A lot of these criminals, certainly a disproportionate, get to go home to their subsidized housing at the end of the day. I just want somewhere classy and safe that doesn't have to cater to the poor. Just ONE place. I want the OLD Euclid Avenue, the kind I was not around to experience, and subsidized housing is the opposite that. I mean, look at the dump on West 25th - I have friends in that area that tell me all kinds of horror stories about that building and its residents, and I'm just tired of it.

It seems like a lot of Cleveland caters primarily to those who need subsidized housing, and I just wanted Euclid Avenue to be something different:( Maybe it will, but this is a terrible terrible start, and since the project was mostly federally funded, I wish someone in DC would take notice and perhaps do something about it i.e. "Dear Cleveland, we didn't spend all that money for this. Regards, Hillary" Something like that.

I'm probably going to repeat what some of the posters have already said, but my problem with subsidized housing is that they seem have a disproportionate amount of problems than other properties. And it would just be nice to have a really nice area without any fears of that kind of disruption, which I had believed was the point of the Euclid Avenue Project. When I think mixed use neighborhoods, which was what this project was supposed to encourage, I do NOT think of housing projects. I would never move my fledgling business into an area where my employees and I would have, in addition to other stresses, to worry about our neighbors. A lot of money went into this project, and it was supposed to cater to the middle and upper class for once.

Of course lots of nice people live in Section 8 housing and lots of jerks live in private residence. But let's be realisitic. A lot of these criminals, certainly a disproportionate, get to go home to their subsidized housing at the end of the day. I just want somewhere classy and safe that doesn't have to cater to the poor. Just ONE place. I want the OLD Euclid Avenue, the kind I was not around to experience, and subsidized housing is the opposite that. I mean, look at the dump on West 25th - I have friends in that area that tell me all kinds of horror stories about that building and its residents, and I'm just tired of it.

It seems like a lot of Cleveland caters primarily to those who need subsidized housing, and I just wanted Euclid Avenue to be something different:( Maybe it will, but this is a terrible terrible start, and since the project was mostly federally funded, I wish someone in DC would take notice and perhaps do something about it i.e. "Dear Cleveland, we didn't spend all that money for this. Regards, Hillary" Something like that.

Bravo. NO ONE is saying that ALL people who live in section 8 are bad people. However, and this cannot be disputed, they do commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Not exactly the mid-town some of us envisioned, or desire.

And in regards to the design, I liken it to putting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

This is not Section 8. It is also not a housing tower like is on W. 25th. It will be a mid-level apartment complex for people with chronic homeless problems. Participation in the program is contingent on being a good neighbor in the community. The program has previously had a 95% success rate in keeping people off the street. Crime does indeed fester in some public housing projects, but they tend to be the monolithic structures like Caprini Green. This is 70 units of housing, a reasonable number for CHN to be monitoring for any problems that might arise with the residents.

I work next door to a very similar project downtown (1850 Superior ... adjacent to the Tower Press Building and across the street from the Plain Dealer). In four years, I have never once experienced a single problem with any resident of the building. I have walked around the neighborhood at 10 p.m. at night and felt relatively safe; I have certainly never had a single concern for my safety associated with 1850. Meanwhile, professionals are paying anywhere between $750 and $2000 per month to live and/or operate small businesses next door in Tower Press; it is always at near-full occupancy. A full-service dry cleaner and car rental firm are on the other side of the building and don't seem to have experienced any problems with the property.

All of this seems to indicate that the transitional housing has done little if anything to hamper development in this particular neighborhood. Euclid Ave. could be a different case, for sure; it's a different environment. I think all of you are entitled to be opposed to this project, but I do feel that people are overreacting to the scale of what it will do to the avenue and prejudging a population based on their impressions of 1960 and 1970 layouts for subsidized housing (not based on any experiences with scattered site, mid-scale or other models that have been much more successful and have generally not been bastions of crime). 70 units! In 5 years, this is going to be a mere footnote in the redevelopment of Euclid Ave.

8Shades, thank you for your calming words. One of the things I like about UO is that, while we all have our concerns, there are always people who provide a different point of view that keeps those concerns from turning into hysteria. I, like others who care about this city, will remain watchful of this project. But thank you, 8Shades, for making me think about this project than merely reacting to it.

I'm probably going to repeat what some of the posters have already said, but my problem with subsidized housing is that they seem have a disproportionate amount of problems than other properties. And it would just be nice to have a really nice area without any fears of that kind of disruption, which I had believed was the point of the Euclid Avenue Project. When I think mixed use neighborhoods, which was what this project was supposed to encourage, I do NOT think of housing projects. I would never move my fledgling business into an area where my employees and I would have, in addition to other stresses, to worry about our neighbors. A lot of money went into this project, and it was supposed to cater to the middle and upper class for once.

Of course lots of nice people live in Section 8 housing and lots of jerks live in private residence. But let's be realisitic. A lot of these criminals, certainly a disproportionate, get to go home to their subsidized housing at the end of the day. I just want somewhere classy and safe that doesn't have to cater to the poor. Just ONE place. I want the OLD Euclid Avenue, the kind I was not around to experience, and subsidized housing is the opposite that. I mean, look at the dump on West 25th - I have friends in that area that tell me all kinds of horror stories about that building and its residents, and I'm just tired of it.

It seems like a lot of Cleveland caters primarily to those who need subsidized housing, and I just wanted Euclid Avenue to be something different:( Maybe it will, but this is a terrible terrible start, and since the project was mostly federally funded, I wish someone in DC would take notice and perhaps do something about it i.e. "Dear Cleveland, we didn't spend all that money for this. Regards, Hillary" Something like that.

I am not a fear monger...But, one can sugarcoat the public/transitional housing/mental hospital all they want...But, it will not change the fact that their will be a negative stigma attached to this sort of thing. I do not fear a break out....and other hysterical fears out there associated with such projects... But, what I am concerned with the most is the stigma..the negative perception. Perception is 90% of it all.. Look what the negative perception of the river fire did to Cleveland, and we still have not quite had that let go.

Now, here is a chance to lure a broader demographic of people in town....the supposed higher incomes we need to show a starting movement to offset the constant tired reminder that we are the 'poorest' major us city just because we do not fit into what many perceive as well off (having it all, appearing well off..but owning noting, and strapped out with debt) Ok, we want to attract people..make the city a place of choice... Then, we use the main corridor we hoped to be the lure, as a tribute to what we already have enough of. I am not saying these projects are not needed.. I am asking, however, why must they be on Euclid? It sets a precedent as well. In fact, precedent is my biggest concern.

And let's pull our heads out of our tails... Yes, there is all too often problem residents in low income housing...stigmas that are detracting. True or not...It is making me nauseated to see people in denial about that. Life experiences have taught some lessons...to ignore them, is silly. Elder low income...ok.. but mixed age... You can count on inviting a few idiots who make it a problem for most of the good, especially if they don't take responsibility for friends they may have over who do not know how to behave in a communal setting. Transitional housing? Sounds like a kind word for something else...But 8 Shades made a good explanation and even so... I would not want such housing to be placed on the main avenue.

Maybe if the screening was better, I don't know. I do know, that here is a time to really plan well...and projects like this simply appear to me as development at any cost. "The New Midtown-A tribute to social dysfunction" Great centerpiece on your main thoroughfare! Again, not opposed to the project...Rather in great question in placing it on the avenue that is supposed to be a big selling point for your city...and, the precedent factor for what else now? Still not sold... Sell me! :-D

$5 says people that oppose this project have A) not called or written city hall to express their views, or B) not tried to launch their own development.

Opinions are convienent, doing something about it... well Obama hasn't made a program for to do that for us...yet.

Euclid Corridor is long, this project is small in comparison. Cranes on Euclid OTHER than Cleveland Clinic, NOW THATS A PRECEDENT TO BE FOLLOWED.

P.S., if you ask someone from my city of Shaker or any other Suburb for that matter, their perception of the area in question is already ROCK bottom... "ghetto, twisghlight zone, crack heads...."... *ANY* new consturction will help that... really how much worse could it get?

While I honestly tend to agree with you Etheostoma, I am leaning on giving this a chance. Lets be honest, banks are using TARP funds to expand and buy out each other (PNC<Nat City) and there is still no reason to believe money will be made available in any large amount to gambling commercial developers... and I gotta believe putting some ritzy condos (what we all want) on Euclid and (fill in the blank cross street) in Cleveland, Ohio is about the last place a shy banker will put those funds, if and when they start to "trickle down".

^Regarding your former point, I, and someone else on these forums, had emailed Robert N. Brown, Director of Cleveland City Planning Commission about our concerns, and he sent us some bush league, POINTLESS, and virtually identical response which reads more like a form than an actual caring message. So that's at least $10 bucks you owe...

I attached his response (juts copy and pasted from a few pages ago)

'Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the future of Euclid Avenue in Midtown. The City continues to support the vision of Euclid Avenue in Midtown as a place for mixed-use development, with offices, housing and retail, in a pedestrian-oriented/ transit-oriented development. We are confident that the recently proposed uses can be designed and sited in a manner that will contribute to realizing this vision for Euclid Avenue. We will continue working to pursue development that is in accordance with the plan and the zoning for Midtown. Please feel free to get back to me if you have further comments. Again, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.'

Contrary to the opinion expressed by Thomas Bier in The Plain Dealer on July 26 ("Euclid Ave. primed for growth -- until City Hall got involved"), the city of Cleveland has not walked away from its long-standing efforts to promote economic development in Cleveland's Midtown neighborhood, nor has it "shattered" the promise that the Euclid Corridor between Cleveland State University and the Cleveland Clinic would be developed for private businesses.

More at http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2009/08/clevelands_euclid_avenue_devel.html (http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2009/08/clevelands_euclid_avenue_devel.html)

you know what is missing from this, a quote like "and we will require these institutions to build in accordance to the strict zoning and design standards established for Midtown area. These new buildings will compliment the work done on the Healthline"

He didn't say it, because I doubt it will happen. "The daily flow of thousands of people to the district will stimulate new shops, restaurants and the like."Kind of like how the Clinic stimulates all of that street activity?

I HOPE HOPE HOPE I am wrong and will gladly hear "I told you so" for years if these buildings are done right. I just have no faith in the city on this one.

For the record, I absolutely no beef with the mental health hospital, there were a few in the Chicago neighborhoods I lived in, and never noticed them. But, seriously, transitional housing on what is supposed to be our showcase street? It couldn't go on Superior or Chester?

I want to weigh in briefly on this. I don't have a problem at all with putting Section 8 housing along the corridor. However, I am frustrated by our community's collective insistence on demolishing historic structures to build new. The Section 8 housing units are replacing two 1920s-era, brick apartment buildings that probably contain a similar number of units to what's required (70). They are certainly in a run-down condition at the moment, but given the state and federal restoration incentives available at the moment (that together can provide 45% of the financing for a rehab project), I find it difficult to believe that there was no option to save these buildings. Chris Warren says they've been vacant for 15 years -- certainly other buildings have been vacant longer and been brought back to productive use.Regardless, they will go away so that we can make room for (to judge from the renderings) a suburban-looking, set-back-from-the-sidewalk exercise in mediocrity, complete with front lawns. Given what is likely a limited budget, the construction materials and techniques won't be anywhere near the level seen in the old buildings.Putting aside who will live there for the moment, is this the kind of built environment we want to create on what is supposed to be the City's Main Street? It continues a trend in Cleveland of "throwing away" the old city to create something new, as if new in itself is better. To me, this is not only wasteful (and therefore unsustainable), but a reflection of our poor self-image. If we thought better of ourselves, we would want to honor our heritage -- it's what separates us from and could make us competitive with newer cities like Phoenix and even Vancouver.

^Regarding your former point, I, and someone else on these forums, had emailed Robert N. Brown, Director of Cleveland City Planning Commission about our concerns, and he sent us some bush league, POINTLESS, and virtually identical response which reads more like a form than an actual caring message. So that's at least $10 bucks you owe...

I attached his response (juts copy and pasted from a few pages ago)

'Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the future of Euclid Avenue in Midtown. The City continues to support the vision of Euclid Avenue in Midtown as a place for mixed-use development, with offices, housing and retail, in a pedestrian-oriented/ transit-oriented development. We are confident that the recently proposed uses can be designed and sited in a manner that will contribute to realizing this vision for Euclid Avenue. We will continue working to pursue development that is in accordance with the plan and the zoning for Midtown. Please feel free to get back to me if you have further comments. Again, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.'

Robert N. Brown, Director

Cleveland City Planning Commission

rnbrown@city.cleveland.oh.us

Tel: 216-664-3467 Fax: 216-664-3281

Web Site: http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us

I write to Bob Brown frequently...and have about this project. I received the same cookie cutter letter. I just question their idea of 'pedestrian friendly/oriented development' I am not saying it is impossible to get me to warm to this, but it will be difficult. I simply see too often what accompanies such institutions and it is not something I would want to boast about to the world on my main avenue. Besides, maybe people who have to use such institutions would prefer a more private setting before they are ready to be sent back into the world. Nature, trees, and solace does wonders for the body, mind, soul...so maybe a campus just off Euclid..a park like setting would be better. Just NOT on the main avenue.. No..No..No.. No.. No..No!!! Let's not be desperate and whore ourselves out to any old development that comes along for the sake of saying 'we have some development' patience..patience.. Not patients!

Naturally, I hope I am wrong if this follows through, and actually hope people like 8-Shades are right..But I have serious doubts....and I will gladly put my foot in my mouth, if I am wrong... and hop around Public Square (then I would be the first to occupy the mental hospital!)

I want to weigh in briefly on this. I don't have a problem at all with putting Section 8 housing along the corridor. However, I am frustrated by our community's collective insistence on demolishing historic structures to build new. The Section 8 housing units are replacing two 1920s-era, brick apartment buildings that probably contain a similar number of units to what's required (70). They are certainly in a run-down condition at the moment, but given the state and federal restoration incentives available at the moment (that together can provide 45% of the financing for a rehab project), I find it difficult to believe that there was no option to save these buildings. Chris Warren says they've been vacant for 15 years -- certainly other buildings have been vacant longer and been brought back to productive use.Regardless, they will go away so that we can make room for (to judge from the renderings) a suburban-looking, set-back-from-the-sidewalk exercise in mediocrity, complete with front lawns. Given what is likely a limited budget, the construction materials and techniques won't be anywhere near the level seen in the old buildings.Putting aside who will live there for the moment, is this the kind of built environment we want to create on what is supposed to be the City's Main Street? It continues a trend in Cleveland of "throwing away" the old city to create something new, as if new in itself is better. To me, this is not only wasteful (and therefore unsustainable), but a reflection of our poor self-image. If we thought better of ourselves, we would want to honor our heritage -- it's what separates us from and could make us competitive with newer cities like Phoenix and even Vancouver.

Very well stated! If this does happen...No suburban model, please. And yes, the building demolished..... If I am thinking which one you're talking about.....was shameful. But I still don't want Section 8. Are we striving to be mediocre? Are we catering to this and no one else? How then will we get above average... "The New Euclid-A Tribute to Social Failure/Dysfunction" Please come live here! :clap:

The patients need a wooded environment? really? I'm going to go ahead and take the city at its word (oh boy) and believe this will be a 'state of the art' development. Its a HOSPITAL people, one that will bring 500+ employee's to a region where dozens of the private sector businesses are already prospecting. What are we still complaining about here?

The patients need a wooded environment? really? I'm going to go ahead and take the city at its word (oh boy) and believe this will be a 'state of the art' development. Its a HOSPITAL people, one that will bring 500+ employee's to a region where dozens of the private sector businesses are already prospecting. What are we still complaining about here?

The fact that it is on the main avenue...500 jobs or not, is not the point of the opposition ....and the opposition is not to the project, but to the location. There is a difference. And yes, nature heals...Have you ever been to a retreat? It really puts us back touch with what is real and what matters...

I do wonder where these 500 new employees will live? Mostly here and near... Or out in the burbs....

The patients need a wooded environment? really? I'm going to go ahead and take the city at its word (oh boy) and believe this will be a 'state of the art' development. Its a HOSPITAL people, one that will bring 500+ employee's to a region where dozens of the private sector businesses are already prospecting. What are we still complaining about here?

The fact that it is on the main avenue...500 jobs or not, is not the point of the opposition ....and the opposition is not to the project, but to the location. There is a difference. And yes, nature heals...Have you ever been to a retreat? It really puts us back touch with what is real and what matters...

This location for the hospital is only a 'problem' if it prevents other businesses from coming to the area. The article posted clearly states otherwise.

hubz1124, you would have no problem if the hospital was set up in the middle of the property, surrounded by parking, then grass, then a fence?

Only if its a barbed-wire fence.....but seriously, It doesn't matter if I approve with your hypothetical layout. It matters only if businesses that are prospecting midtown do. If you take this article at face value, then this hospital, however it's designed, has not deterred the dozens of the businesses which are still interested in the area.

It matters to me and many people on this board. This is a discussion group dedicated to urbanity.Euclid Avenue was rebuilt to connect our two gems, downtown and uptown, University Circle. Euclid Avenue has the potential to become the main street of the city's residents, not just its businesses. With the Healthline, the employment centers, the available land and buildings, nearly all the elements to foster a healthy dense mixed use main street over time are there.What is missing is wise planning and the discipline to not jump at any offer for the land in pure desperation.Euclid Avenue deserves better than that, Cleveland deserves better than that.

I agree with everyone about design principles ... proper frontage along the street, properly placed (and visually minimized) parking, mixed uses, etc. And I think blinker's comments about reuse of existing building stock are spot-on. Those are all valid concerns, the really proper concerns for all of us to be having.

But if we're just talking about integration into the neighborhood fabric and other urban planning concerns, then I think we should apply the same degree of rigor to reviewing every Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals project along Euclid. Definitely, I have heard people on this forum talk about poor design principles with these institutions (the Sight Center comes to mind). But I don't recall any substantial discussion about the design principles of UH's Cancer Center going up or anyone suggesting that it didn't belong on Euclid Ave. And yet we have multiple pages of discussion about the proposed psychiatric hospital being detrimental to the corridor before we see a single rendering. If it's urban design we're talking about, any number of buildings along Euclid Ave. need to be considered ... from the hospitals to the setbacks and fences around Zaremba's townhomes to the suburban-style drugstores. If we're talking about a psychiatric hospital being bad because it provides mental health services, that's a different story ... and there I would definitely challenge anyone who says the use itself is undesirable.

In the end, I'm much more concerned about seeing a Planning Commission, Board of Zoning Appeals, Landmarks, Design Review Boards, etc. that have teeth and will hold property developers accountable for the planning requirements already in place than I am about subsidized housing or mental health services being on Euclid Ave.

And I think that if we go to Bob Brown as citizens and say "social services like that don't belong on our storied street", the response is going to be "hey, determining use (outside of zoning requirements) is beyond our purview". If our e-mail campaign focuses on preventing needless demolitions and rejecting plans that don't live up to existing planning requirements, I think we have a much better opportunity for action.

The zoning overlay along the Midtown section of Euclid requires development up on the sidewalk, with the ground-floor frontage being of mixed-use. But zoning is only as good as the boards and commissions charged with enforcing it. We need to watch this closely and speak up if the submitted plans don't conform to code.

But I don't recall any substantial discussion about the design principles of UH's Cancer Center going up or anyone suggesting that it didn't belong on Euclid Ave. And yet we have multiple pages of discussion about the proposed psychiatric hospital being detrimental to the corridor before we see a single rendering. If it's urban design we're talking about, any number of buildings along Euclid Ave. need to be considered ... from the hospitals to the setbacks and fences around Zaremba's townhomes to the suburban-style drugstores. If we're talking about a psychiatric hospital being bad because it provides mental health services, that's a different story ... and there I would definitely challenge anyone who says the use itself is undesirable.

Actually there has been lots of talk on here about the cancer hospital and how it doesnt fit/setback/belongs in the suburbs. As well as the drugstores etc. We all know that the Clinic has a bad urban design concept, and they have been getting a pass because of their influence. But yes that shouldn't be the case with everything/anything else, just because the city is trying to show progress.

Personally the cancer hospital setback in that spot didn't bother me as much since it is basically in an area of setbacks (museum/campus/park setting) The rather suburban looking design and how badly it connects with the other building is another story.

I stand corrected :) I will admit, I didn't take the time to do a search to see what had been said about the Cancer Hospital. Still, and correct me if I'm wrong, I cannot recall a single time that anyone has suggested that any Cleveland Clinic or UH building didn't belong on Euclid (barring discussions of design principles associated with those buildings or demolishing existing structures to put them up). The only example of I can think of, where forumers objected to the USE rather than the DESIGN is the Clinic's massive parking garage along Chester, and the Clinic's plan to shut down Euclid to through-traffic (including the Healthline).

A healthy discussion about design principles of hospitals is cool for me, but catering to the belief that it's a bad project because "psychiatric hospitals scare suburbanites" seems ridiculous. And that's not aimed at any forumer ... just a general disgust at how much we as a country stigmatize mental health services, remove it from general health insurance coverage, etc., despite the fact that not treating anxiety, depression, etc. leads to serious physical conditions that we foot the bill for later. Ugh. I digress :)

I'm actually happy to see this demolition. All distinguishing architectural features had already been taken off to give RTA the extra 6" or whatever they needed, and all that is left is a massive shell. The Dunham Tavern itself may not be open all the time, but the grounds are nicely maintained. If (and sometimes this feels like a big if) we are smart as a community, we will use this space not only as grounds for the museum, but as a nice central park for eastern Midtown.

I'm actually happy to see this demolition. All distinguishing architectural features had already been taken off to give RTA the extra 6" or whatever they needed, and all that is left is a massive shell. The Dunham Tavern itself may not be open all the time, but the grounds are nicely maintained. If (and sometimes this feels like a big if) we are smart as a community, we will use this space not only as grounds for the museum, but as a nice central park for eastern Midtown.

I'm actually happy to see this demolition. All distinguishing architectural features had already been taken off to give RTA the extra 6" or whatever they needed, and all that is left is a massive shell. The Dunham Tavern itself may not be open all the time, but the grounds are nicely maintained. If (and sometimes this feels like a big if) we are smart as a community, we will use this space not only as grounds for the museum, but as a nice central park for eastern Midtown.

That's the kind of short sighted view that has plagued this city. It's not hard to image this bohemoth as part larger rethinking of this area. Apparently for some it is...

I would have loved to have seen this building used for conversion to housing, no doubt. But this would have been extremely expensive. Only a robust local economy, a housing shortage and/or huge demand for more core housing would have generated interest in this building. Since those conditions haven't existed here in decades, many buildings like this won't remain.

What is short sighted? Demolishing the building's facade for a tiny bit of engineering clearance? Demolishing the hulk that remains? Using that land as a central park?

All of the above. It's basically the same attitude that pushed the demolition of the Warehouse in the 70's, Prospect around East 4th and then around East 14th: not recognizing the value and potential of existing structures and demolishing them for lesser "usage." It's funny that you talk about the robustness of a neighborhood and economy, but one could argue if they didn't have this obsession of demo to begin since the 1960's, this structure and neighborhood may have had a chance to add to both the neighborhood and economy. Now we simply saying this attitude should continue because we'ev torn down everything else that was worthwhile. Great short sighed theory that shows there is no citywide agenda when it comes to dealing with this common situation. The only question is what's the next one to come down? And the idea of a central park? Please. Central to what? Open pastures and suburban style industrial park buildings? I'd rather not.

What is short sighted? Demolishing the building's facade for a tiny bit of engineering clearance? Demolishing the hulk that remains? Using that land as a central park?

All of the above. It's basically the same attitude that pushed the demolition of the Warehouse in the 70's, Prospect around East 4th and then around East 14th: not recognizing the value and potential of existing structures and demolishing them for lesser "usage." It's funny that you talk about the robustness of a neighborhood and economy, but one could argue if they didn't have this obsession of demo to begin since the 1960's, this structure and neighborhood may have had a chance to add to both the neighborhood and economy. Now we simply saying this attitude should continue because we'ev torn down everything else that was worthwhile. Great short sighed theory that shows there is no citywide agenda when it comes to dealing with this common situation. The only question is what's the next one to come down? And the idea of a central park? Please. Central to what? Open pastures and suburban style industrial park buildings? I'd rather not.

I just don't know what else there is to do. If a developer does not come forward with money and plans to renovate these structures, what is the city supposed to do. I would rathere see an empty plot of developable land that can serve as various reasons for development versus blown out dilaptitaded buildings that developers are not willing to undertake. Honestly, what should we do is my question. Let them sit there for years and years until someone redevelops them?

^The problem is, the only "value and potential" that matters in the property market is the kind that comes with cash...and as far as I know (from more than just reading these boards), this is the only viable cash offer RTA has received for this property. Maybe the new county land bank can someday intervene in cases like this, but RTA can't afford to be in the business of mothballing buildings unrelated to their core business.

I agree with X that the real mistake was RTA's insistence that the front bay/facade be sliced off and the corner building knocked down, all because they absolutely had to have a BRT station in front of that building. The writing's been on the wall for that shell ever since then.

Don't get me wrong, I would be all in favor of redevelopment of this shell (a la Quay 55) if there was even the slightest hint that someone with the $$ was interested. However, I have not heard a peep and I don't foresee it. If this building was in the WHD, I would be throwing a fit.

As it stands now, the building is a big black eye coming up and down Euclid, not much different than the old Howard Johnshon along the shoreway. It really gives MidTown a ghost town kind of feel.

All that said and while I would be in favor (very much so) of a "central park" type concept for this part of town, I am not a fan of what Dunham is proposing. I would only be in a favor of a park that was large enough in scale to allow for recreational uses (biking, jogging, picnics, etc).

Didn't we go thru all this in the Healthline thread? Just putting it out there.

You are a moderator in your own mind.

HUSH. I only asked a question. This is the exact same conversation we had then. We're all unhappy about the situation. I just see the value in repeating the same thing in this thread that's already in that thread. If someone opened that thread and started the convo that would be one thing. Just my opinion.

What is short sighted? Demolishing the building's facade for a tiny bit of engineering clearance? Demolishing the hulk that remains? Using that land as a central park?

All of the above. It's basically the same attitude that pushed the demolition of the Warehouse in the 70's, Prospect around East 4th and then around East 14th: not recognizing the value and potential of existing structures and demolishing them for lesser "usage." It's funny that you talk about the robustness of a neighborhood and economy, but one could argue if they didn't have this obsession of demo to begin since the 1960's, this structure and neighborhood may have had a chance to add to both the neighborhood and economy. Now we simply saying this attitude should continue because we'ev torn down everything else that was worthwhile. Great short sighed theory that shows there is no citywide agenda when it comes to dealing with this common situation. The only question is what's the next one to come down? And the idea of a central park? Please. Central to what? Open pastures and suburban style industrial park buildings? I'd rather not.

I would have loved to have seen the building as it existed originally saved, but I don't see any value in what is essentially a crumbling concrete skeleton. If you had some interesting adaptive reuse idea for it, please share. I'd genuinely be interested.

As for the Central Park idea I mentioned, who's being short sighted here? I'm obviously referring to the possibility that Midtown could, and should, see some quality redevelopment that could interact with that open space to create an interesting urban/green contrast.

damn i dk what to say. i really love that shell...but i love that park rendering too. the idea of focusing more park and attention around dunham tavern is sound and attractive.

of course what would really be great would be if they opened dt up for drinks like ye olde ale and grog again - heh.

practically speaking what do you do with such a massive and dilapidated old structure? its so far gone i dont see how it could ever be reused. not to mention that size of a building will just not be needed along there for long time, if ever again.

so elegiac as it is, i think this teardown will make euc & the vicinity much more attractive to new development, at least immediately around the park. its not hard to imagine it, a park facing home or business is potentially very enticing....and much more easily achievable than rescuing that old wrecked hulk. cant believe i just said that, but its true. carry on clevo.

of course what would really be great would be if they opened dt up for drinks like ye olde ale and grog again - heh.

For real. This demo would be a lot more palatable if the Dunham Tavern folks would be a little more ambitious with their programming and hours to make it more than just a fossil/educational installation. Looks like the place is run on a shoe string now, so can't really blame them, but if they have money for this acquisition, maybe it's time to take open the doors a little wider, at least to the gardens.

No offense whatsoever to the Dunham Tavern, but I question their ability to manage such a large section of land to the degree to which we would like to see. As of 2008, they had operating revenue of $106,697, of which only $13,600 went to salaries and wages of dedicated staff.

Don't know the specifics, but by all appearances, it looks as though they are almost solely a volunteer endeavor. Unless this project would be paired with a substantial capital campaign that includes an endowment for property maintenance, or unless they are receiving considerable assistance and investment from someone like Parks and Rec or Parkworks, or unless they are realizing some public revenue as a result of the proposed psychiatric hospital, I just can't see how they can make this a reality, particularly in this economic climate.

If I'm missing details here, I apologize to them for misconstruing the situation. But if I'm not, I can't see how this would be a preferred use. As hard as it might be to reactivate this complex, I don't want to see demolition if the ultimate use ends up being fallow field with a flower planting along the frontage.

I believe you're right that they have an agreement for maintenance of the existing Learning Garden set back from Chester, but I hadn't seen anything to date about this rather large-scale expansion. That would definitely make me feel better, although I would hope they have that the agreement would be pretty long-term in nature. I'm still a bit concerned about the longevity of the Tavern, given their small budget, the amount derived from private donations (which seems like it would not be very resilient in economic downturns) and what I perceive to be a disproportionate share of very old supporters. That being said, if they can pull this off, and they very well may be able to, maybe it will drive additional attention, visitation and support to them.

The solution isn't to tear it down and build a park in the middle of a swath of nothingness. The solution isn't to leave it standing to decay even further. The problem isn't the building. The problem isn't the location. The problem began 40 years ago when Cleveland was deemed a wasteland. The solution is to reverse the mindset plaguing NE Ohio's business owners and make them want to re-locate to MidTown and Cleveland in general instead of places like Beachwood and Solon. Until that happens, W28 and others like myself will continue to draw tears from our eyes as this shit continues and everyone questions why, why, why.

What is short sighted? Demolishing the building's facade for a tiny bit of engineering clearance? Demolishing the hulk that remains? Using that land as a central park?

All of the above. It's basically the same attitude that pushed the demolition of the Warehouse in the 70's, Prospect around East 4th and then around East 14th: not recognizing the value and potential of existing structures and demolishing them for lesser "usage." It's funny that you talk about the robustness of a neighborhood and economy, but one could argue if they didn't have this obsession of demo to begin since the 1960's, this structure and neighborhood may have had a chance to add to both the neighborhood and economy. Now we simply saying this attitude should continue because we'ev torn down everything else that was worthwhile. Great short sighed theory that shows there is no citywide agenda when it comes to dealing with this common situation. The only question is what's the next one to come down? And the idea of a central park? Please. Central to what? Open pastures and suburban style industrial park buildings? I'd rather not.

Good stuff, w28th.

I'm not sure this particular building was worth saving at this point, but I've had it with "greenspace" proposals replacing urban density. How on earth does ruralizing Euclid Avenue capitalize on the 24-7 transit system we just built there? Gag me with a ladle.

The "density" on that stretch of Euclid was demolished long ago. It already has somewhat of a rural feel. Let's face it, that building was HUGE and a big black eye along the corridor. It looked like something out of Detroit.

Any re-use would have been on the Bingham scale... perhaps even bigger. Suppose it was rennovated and residential units were put on the market - how many of you genuinely believe it would have filled up with tenants any time soon? A Tyler Village type concept might have had some promise, but I would rather (at this point in time) that the local developers invest closer to CSU or UC.

^ Right now it's like "Juno the transparent woman building" Imagine it as a museum with the buiilding's innards, hvac, electrical, plumbing, and structural elements exposed and explained to visitors :wink: .

Great news about the expansion. I just wish they would expand toward the sidewalk on Euclid. Imagine a factory outlet store. If Gallucci's can do so well in this area, why can't a Pierre's store? Who knows, maybe it could spark a specialty foods retailing district in Midtown? It used to be a wholesaling area for the restaurant and hospitality markets so this wouldn't be a big leap of faith.

^ Right now it's like "Juno the transparent woman building" Imagine it as a museum with the buiilding's innards, hvac, electrical, plumbing, and structural elements exposed and explained to visitors :wink: .

hey you got a very cool and creative point there! it could remain part of an expanded dunham tavern park around that block. dunham tavern, a park and that historic industrial era relic. what a park that would be, cleveland history in a nutshell. that would be outstanding. unfortunately, i'm afraid it would take nyc's new highline park type of big money for it to be made safe and to git'r done like that.

I will disagree with that, especially in this case. Just like Hts44211 said, based on the location, it has to come down.

Why? At least its something on the landscape. Already, 55th to 61st, both sides of Euclid are vacant. That is a very urban area for some and there is nothing there. Why not just knock them all down, right?

also I don't believe x was referring to THE central park but rather A central park... as in centrally located in midtown.

Yes, traveled through there twice last month coming from dt to university circle for events. As I stated, there are huge lots already vacant from 55th to 61st. I would rather see a structure like that crumble than be torn down to create another unmaintained lot. At least it is being used for public art on the facade now.The idea of creating a "park" would infer that there are enough people already living in that area to support it.I understand money is the driving factor, so what myself or others want is fairly irrelevant at this point.

Public art... i guess that's one way of looking at what's up there :lol:

I was devestated when word came down that they were demolishing the building directly west of what's left, removing the facade of what is now in place, and demolishing the buildings on the south side of the street at 55th, all for the euclid corridor. I know people that fought that fight as long and as hard as they possibly could. In the end, as usual, it was roadway engineers who refused to be concerned with anything except what some guidebook told them was the quickest and most efficient way to move traffic that doomed these structures. They should have just taken down what's left of these at that point. Honestly once the building to the left came down and the facade was removed taking away any architectural and historic features... it simply became a lifeless hulking concrete support structure, that akwardly sits in the middle of a block that already is 2/3rds consumed by the dunham tavern plan. In no way am I advocating for the dunham park plan, and think there probably could be better uses for the lots, the one thing I'm not worried about is another "unmaintained" lot. Dunham actually does a really nice job of maintaining their grounds.

If we want to get really upset about building demolition focus attention on the buildings on the south side of euclid at 73rd that they want to tear down for one of those new "developments".

also I don't believe x was referring to THE central park but rather A central park... as in centrally located in midtown.

Indeed that is what I meant.

Folks may find the idea "laughable" or "near sighted", but if so, give up a better idea to the board, and we can discuss the merits of that. Given the condition of the building, the prospects for it's redevelopment, the likely market in Midtown, and the reality of Dunham Museum's actions and intentions I see this as the most reasonable way to make some lemonade out of the lemons that are rolling our way. Not as the most ideal solution, nor as a given. Just the most likely possibility for this piece of land to be a positive piece of Midtown.

The situation at hand is that Euclid Avenue began as a utopia. It was millionaire's row. It was lined with mansions. Then they were torn down and things like this said warehouse(s) and huge industrial complexes were constructed. That in itself was the end of millionaire's row, but, it was also the beginning of a very urban and dense street which was previously nothing but mansions. Now, in the present day, we're taking that urban density, tearing it down and entering phase 3 of Euclid Avenue. Some parts dystopia, some parts "rennaisance in the making", some parts like an old man with alzheimer's, confused and not sure of anything. It's a mix of: a) several remaining mansions (Only one on this segment of Euclid), b) decaying/abandoned/grafitti covered industrial buildings, c) open fields, d) planned hospital/social services facilities, and e) an extremely pedestrian-friendly bus system built to handles masses of people. Since Euclid in MidTown still has a mix of old and new, there should be more emphasis on re-development and preservation, because ever since Euclid declined in the 30's, nobody seems to want to save anything, just tear down and build inferior things.

A new warehouse for the ice cream factory is not going to enhance Euclid Avenue. For those opposing a mental hospital, you should practically be picketing an ice cream warehouse proposal, since that will do absolutely nothing for Euclid. At least a mental hospital will bring staff and people to the city. Sure, an expansion at Pierre's may bring some new staff, but I suspect expanded facility space not much expansion in staff.

How can you say that? A new warehouse for an ice cream factory is precisely what this road needs. More middle class jobs, more of a middle class presence in general, proof that the Euclid Corridor Project can induce new or expanding business, etc.

^that is precisely why I want to see what their expansion plans are... maybe it's more of euclid, maybe it's south towards carnegie (they own land and buildings there as well). Hard to comment on the unknown.

To be serious, the entire Pierre's plant is set back from the street with a black fence in front of it. There is greenspace directly to the west of the complex, where the warehouse will go. I would assume that the planning commission won't allow the warehouse to look like just "anything". Pierre's is what it is- I would rather have them expand here- even on Euclid- than to loose them to another municipality/region/state later. As long as SOME type of above par design is part of the proposal, I'll be ok with it.

I honestly don't know how to feel about this section of Euclid. Part of me wants to scream out that we're squandering the greatest opportunity for our main thoroughfare with these proposed developments. Another part of me wants to just wait and see what happens in regards to whatever plan is in place for Midtown. But I surely feel that the LACK of a concise, well thought-out plan for this street could possibly lead to us missing a great opportunity for one of the nation's greatest avenues. If there is a plan for the street, as of right now, I'm not a fan of the planner.

First, in no way am I advocating for an industrial parkway on Euclid. But I am a practical guy and sometimes I wonder what people's realistic expectations for MidTown are/were when the BRT was built. I understand there was a "vision" (we have seen plenty of those) and we all have our dreams, but was anybody realistically expecting a sliver of urban density from UC to Downtown to sprout up along the corridor, with residential, retail and "UO approved" commercial uses lining Euclid Avenue from CSU to the Clinic?

I always contemplated the BRT to encourage build out from UC and Downtown, meaning the density of those neighborhoods would expand another 10-15 blocks or so over the course of a couple decades. I also expected, and we are seeing, some significant infill in UC and the CBD as a direct result of the BRT. I also hope for build out to the north and south along Chester, Payne, Carnegie and Prospect within the same block confines. However, I never realistically expected a magical boom of contruction covering 50 or more blocks that would connect the two areas with true urban neighborhoods.

My bottom line is that if a developer wants to build anything that is going to get hip hip hoorays on this board, I would rather it be in UC or the CBD than MidTown. Both of those areas still have a lot of growth potential to them and, at least IMO, building lively neighborhoods in MidTown only causes sprawl within the City itself. For every resident MidTown attracts, it probably takes one away from UC or Downtown. Expansion of desired levels of density into MidTown should be caused by demand and necessity down the road, not pushed as a goal when we still have a lot of work to do on the bookends of the BRT.

It's the same philosophy I have with Skyscrapers - build up only when there is not enough room to fill in.

A family builds a really nice mansion. It looks great - they're all excited about it, and it's the pride of the whole neighborhood. Then, as soon as it's ready, the husband decides to turn the living room into a machine shop. The wife starts a baby sitting operation in the family room. The high school boy starts building computers in the kitchen, and the grade school girl turns the foyer into an animal shelter. Pretty soon the nice mansion turns into a run-down, sore spot of the neighborhood.

That's pretty much what's happening with the Midtown section of Euclid Ave. Because it *looks good*, all kinds of organizations that should have no business on a street designed to be pedestrian-friendly and foster urban development, are opening shop there: a madhouse/homeless shelter, a soon-to-be ghetto, a food factory. Why they wouldn't be required to move to, say, Carnegie or Chester, beats me.

On the other hand, maybe that's the only way to fill the empty land between the two cities that together are called Cleveland, and it may just work...

A family builds a really nice mansion. It looks great - they're all excited about it, and it's the pride of the whole neighborhood. Then, as soon as it's ready, the husband decides to turn the living room into a machine shop. The wife starts a baby sitting operation in the family room. The high school boy starts building computers in the kitchen, and the grade school girl turns the foyer into an animal shelter. Pretty soon the nice mansion turns into a run-down, sore spot of the neighborhood.

That's pretty much what's happening with the Midtown section of Euclid Ave. Because it *looks good*, all kinds of organizations that should have no business on a street designed to be pedestrian-friendly and foster urban development, are opening shop there: a madhouse/homeless shelter, a soon-to-be ghetto, a food factory. Why they wouldn't be required to move to, say, Carnegie or Chester, beats me.

On the other hand, maybe that's the only way to fill the empty land between the two cities that together are called Cleveland, and it may just work...

CLEVELAND - Pierre's Ice Cream Co. got a unanimous thumbs-up from the City Planning Commission this morning on its $6 million proposal to build another 35,540-square-foot production and storage facility on its Midtown Cleveland campus.

A family builds a really nice mansion. It looks great - they're all excited about it, and it's the pride of the whole neighborhood. Then, as soon as it's ready, the husband decides to turn the living room into a machine shop. The wife starts a baby sitting operation in the family room. The high school boy starts building computers in the kitchen, and the grade school girl turns the foyer into an animal shelter. Pretty soon the nice mansion turns into a run-down, sore spot of the neighborhood.

That's pretty much what's happening with the Midtown section of Euclid Ave. Because it *looks good*, all kinds of organizations that should have no business on a street designed to be pedestrian-friendly and foster urban development, are opening shop there: a madhouse/homeless shelter, a soon-to-be ghetto, a food factory. Why they wouldn't be required to move to, say, Carnegie or Chester, beats me.

On the other hand, maybe that's the only way to fill the empty land between the two cities that together are called Cleveland, and it may just work...

Please explain the choice of words??

I think the choice of words are pretty funny! Pretty much self explanatory. Ha! The inconvenient truth, maybe?

A family builds a really nice mansion. It looks great - they're all excited about it, and it's the pride of the whole neighborhood. Then, as soon as it's ready, the husband decides to turn the living room into a machine shop. The wife starts a baby sitting operation in the family room. The high school boy starts building computers in the kitchen, and the grade school girl turns the foyer into an animal shelter. Pretty soon the nice mansion turns into a run-down, sore spot of the neighborhood.

That's pretty much what's happening with the Midtown section of Euclid Ave. Because it *looks good*, all kinds of organizations that should have no business on a street designed to be pedestrian-friendly and foster urban development, are opening shop there: a madhouse/homeless shelter, a soon-to-be ghetto, a food factory. Why they wouldn't be required to move to, say, Carnegie or Chester, beats me.

On the other hand, maybe that's the only way to fill the empty land between the two cities that together are called Cleveland, and it may just work...

Please explain the choice of words??

I think the choice of words are pretty funny! Pretty much self explanatory. Ha! The inconvenient truth, maybe?

Ordinance No. 1387-09 (Ward 5/Cleveland): Authorizing the Commissioner of Purchases and Supplies to purchase property for future redevelopment of the State Behavioral Health Center in Midtown for the Department of Economic Development.

The outline of the parcel in the PD story was interesting. Not sure how they will use the land on the south side of Euclid. Certainly surface parking comes to mind, which would depress me. Hopefully they will site this thing efficiently and unload any surplus land instead of sprawling the thing out to cover the whole lot.

I know this project annoys a lot of folks, but I'm still OK with it if the design is even halfway competent (maybe the best we can hope for); it's a major employer and will bring a lot more activity to the immediate area than the subsidized housing will.

You guys are correct. Per article in PD today the city bought the lot on the south side of the street for parking. We can only hope that it won't be surface parking, but rather an interesting garage with street level retail, but I think I am being a dreamer here. Never had a real problem with the hospital (not yet at least...have to see the design), but this really irks me.

I'm surprised. I though the zoning overlay for that section of Euclid Avenue (as of 2005 or 2006) didn't allow for surface parking fronting Euclid. I don't remember the gory details of the zoning language, so if anyone has those details, please share!!

Whatever happens here will have to go through design review and they're nowhere near that yet. If they want to put in surface parking, I'm assuming they'll need a zoning variance, which requires support from the City, CDC, etc.

^A zoning variance is somewhat easy to get, as long as the councilman of the ward is on board with the changes. If the councilman wants it (reelection purposes), the CDC will more than likely follow suit. Noticing that this will bring construction to this section of Euclid which has been ignored for so long, I would assume that the councilman won't care about the surface parking lot (UNLESS, of course, the councilman is mindful of the history of the street, but again, politics...).

If the city wants to spend tax dollars to clean up this section of Euclid, I'm all for that. Since we don't have a choice, and the hospital will be here, I guess I can be ok with that. But DAMMIT... do we have to put in ANOTHER surface parking lot on this street? Can't we have one project which is catered towards the pedestrian first, and the automobile second? Argh...

Without financial assistance, Geis said the tech center would need to charge rents of about $20 per square foot in a market where tenants are willing to pay only $12 to $15. The disparity is due partly to high land costs and partly to the project design, which calls for a more suburban-style, single-story building surrounded by hundreds of parking spots.That style of building does not mesh with zoning guidelines, which call for multiple stories and a range of uses on that portion of Euclid Avenue. Geis said he is trying to compete with suburban properties and provide suburban amenities, like safe and ample parking, in an urban environment.

^FYI, discussion of this project has been happening here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7408.msg442080/topicseen.html#new (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7408.msg442080/topicseen.html#new)

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A sour economy hasn't killed America's sweet tooth.As John Mitchell points out, people still need to eat. And whether they're ordering at Red Lobster or doctoring their coffee at home, millions of consumers are using sweeteners packaged at the Cleveland plant that Mitchell manages.The facility, on East 65th Street between Euclid and Carnegie avenues, has been growing for several years. American Sugar Refining Inc., a manufacturing affiliate of sugar giant Domino Foods Inc., has spent approximately $6 million since 2004 on equipment, new packaging lines and other improvements. Now the company wants to spend $3 million to $8 million more on an expansion that would nearly double the plant's size.

Agreed about the snarky tone but seriously mick7012- if there's any substantial residential project that's been stalled (like Upper Chester), 99% of the time it will be because of the economic/market conditions. The fact that it's in Unversity Circle might give it a better chance once conditions improve but until then, we probably won't see much movement on it.

Cleveland Rock icon the Agora's future is in fluxOwner offers the building to Cleveland schoolsWKSU's Vivian Goodman reports

The owner of the Cleveland Agora wants to donate it to the Cleveland schools and make the landmark in rock and roll history the new home of the Cleveland School of the Arts.

He's looking for a smaller location and has offered his building to the Cleveland Metropolitan School District. The Cleveland School of the Arts building at University Circle is dilapidated and the district plans to rebuild or move. But Lo Conti says the district doesn't seem too interested in the Agora and will likely rebuild at University Circle. He maintains that's largely because of unfounded fears about safety at the 50th and Euclid location.

^Lo Conti got mixed up with that guy from the Jigsaw saloon, Phil Lara; which resulted in bad blood and massive financial difficulties. The Cleveland Scene covered it pretty well over a series of articles of which this is but one:http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-jig-is-up/Content?oid=1534945

I floated an Agora-centic idea for this area a few months back, and it was heartily shot down. NOTHING shall impede the city's suburban light-industrial vision for Euclid Avenue. What we need right in the middle of Cleveland is Brook Park Road with bus shelters. Because that's what every successful city does, right? We'll take jobs any way we can get them, even if it makes the city so unappealing and dysfuncional it prevents ten times as much development from happening in the future.

Our basic governing philosophies must change, in dramatic fashion, before this city can turn itself around.

I mean, are we really as passionate about rock and roll as the CVB would have outsiders believe?

really?

the cleveland music scene is vibrant, supporting a more active music venues and musicians than most cities. the agora was a part of that, but it faltered, both in bad decisions, and in bad booking. I am no more a fan of the rock and roll city bullshit manifested in the form of stupid guitar "sculptures" on every street corner. but really, every city with a music scene has clubs that close. it's a business. you see it in austin and nyc, as well as cleveland.

the age of the large music club is passing. because bands make most of their money on tour and in licensing, shows are more common, and draw smaller crowds. venues that can respond to this and adapt will be more successful. the agora was not just a relic of another time, it was a bit of dinosaur.

Two startup companies — including one started by the man who founded IQS Inc. in North Olmsted — each have raised about $1 million from investors in Taiwan and soon will be living and working together in Cleveland's Midtown neighborhood.

The companies — business process software company Silico Corp. and electronic device maker Ardent Products Corp. — plan to move into the former Hill Floral Products distribution building at 6401 Midtown Commerce Park Drive this September. Ardent bought the 23,500-square-foot building in December for $665,000 and is in the process of remodeling it.

READ MORE AT:http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20100222/FREE/100229980

Through Shaker Associates LLC, Bowen has signed an agreement to buy 1.78 acres just south of Chester Avenue, near the Dunham Tavern Museum. The city of Cleveland is seeking a state grant of more than $190,000 to cover an environmental analysis of the site, which has been used for welding, auto repair and a range of manufacturing.

Bowen, president and owner of Richard L. Bowen + Associates of Cleveland, envisions a $35 million project on the property. The development could include a 70,000-square-foot medical office building, 150 homes for seniors, 14,000 square feet of retail and two restaurants. According to the state grant application, the project would produce 245 jobs and $1.3 million in annual property tax revenues for Cleveland.

Intersting info in the article: "Evidence of demand is the Euclid Tech Center, a $25 million, 150,000-square-foot project to be built speculatively, without tenants in hand, at Euclid and East 69th Street."

Just wanted to add something to this thread... Euclid between E. 55th and the E. 70s seems to be almost completely cleared on the north side of the street. I'm hoping to see some type of renderings or plans for the area within the near future. An updated plan for the district would be better... anyone have any clues about what's going on?

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A local developer could revive the former Warner & Swasey Co. facility, a dilapidated and boarded-up complex that looms over East 55th Street and Carnegie Avenue.

The city of Cleveland, which owns the property, is working on a deal with Hemingway Development and HzW Environmental Consultants LLC. Hemingway, a division of the Geis Cos. of Streetsboro, wants to restore the 130-year-old buildings for offices, labs and warehousing or manufacturing space -- uses that fit with an effort to brand and promote the Midtown area of Cleveland as a health and technology corridor....

This is particuarly exciting seeing as I was at a seminar of sorts 2-3 months back and actually heard Tracy Nichols say, "Now that the Howard Johnson building is down, my number 1 priority for the next year is to demolish the Warner Swasey building".

This is particuarly exciting seeing as I was at a seminar of sorts 2-3 months back and actually heard Tracy Nichols say, "Now that the Howard Johnson building is down, my number 1 priority for the next year is to demolish the Warner Swasey building".

What? That's insane. This is one of my favorite buildings in town, different from the HoJo building in every imaginable way.

This building wold look fantastic restored. I love the character on this one. Of all the warehouses this city has/had...there are some really worth saving...many other just the same old same old.. But this one is special and worth saving.

This is particuarly exciting seeing as I was at a seminar of sorts 2-3 months back and actually heard Tracy Nichols say, "Now that the Howard Johnson building is down, my number 1 priority for the next year is to demolish the Warner Swasey building".

How lovely it is when our top econonomic development priorities are the demolition of beautiful buildings.

Also from the article about redeveloping the Warner & Swasey building:

Geis, his brother Greg and the Coyne family also hope to build a technology center at Euclid Avenue and East 69th Street, in the heart of the Cleveland Health-Tech Corridor. The partners shared updated drawings of that project with city design officials last week.

Would love to see/hear about those drawings to see how that design is coming along. And the hospital too.

This is particuarly exciting seeing as I was at a seminar of sorts 2-3 months back and actually heard Tracy Nichols say, "Now that the Howard Johnson building is down, my number 1 priority for the next year is to demolish the Warner Swasey building".

These are the people running this city. Unbelievable. Not surprising commentary from someone that's an accountant and is running an important urban economic agency. Shouldn't these people have some sort of background in urban planning, or at the very least, some common sense?

Re: Willyboy's question about the section of the complex with the saw-tooth roof, Fred Geis told me that he just wants to replace the roof and use that portion of the facility for covered parking. He is hoping that Hemingway won't need to tear any part of the building down, though the city's request for proposals to redevelop the property allowed developers to do anything from demolishing the entire complex to saving and renovating the whole thing.

Tracey Nichols at the city told me that the RFP review panel considered proposals from two developers. The other developer, whose proposal was rejected, wanted to demolish the buildings.

It's interesting that you mentioned Tyler Village. I think Hemingway is looking at Tyler Village as a model for what they might be able to do with this property.

Yes you have! But we also have one right around the corner that just got demolished after years of languishing, and one Downtown that doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast. Maybe part of the key is that you guys aren't as focused on one type of tenant?

Fred Geis sees his group's effort to develop a $20 million office/ warehouse building in Cleveland's Midtown neighborhood oriented to medical and tech tenants as more than a real estate development.

Indeed, Mr. Geis, one of two brothers running the Streetsboro-based Geis Cos., describes the project as part of his personal mission to “resettle Cleveland.”

Meanwhile, the city of Cleveland is trying a novel tack to get the proposed Euclid Tech Center financed. Even before the credit crunch, lenders were reluctant to fund a project such as the one Mr. Geis is proposing. He wants to build the project on a speculative basis, without tenants committed to it before the project wins crucial development loans.

The city's financing strategy stems from using a $10.7 million U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development Section 108 Loan as the first mortgage, essentially, for the project. Cleveland City Council on June 7 approved the loan application and a $250,000 grant from the city's Vacant Property Initiative.

MH, the article is in the subscription only area. Would you mind giving us a nuts and bolts synopsis of the article, please?

Here's my breakdown:

Fred Geis and the City of Cleveland are pushing to build the $20 mil office/warehouse building on E.67 and Euclid Ave.

Financing breakdown:

- $10.7 mil U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Section 108 Loan as the first mortgage- $250K -- city's Vacant Property Initiative. - $3.5 mil state's Job-Ready Sites Program- New Markets Tax Credit (federal program for job-creating businesses in urban areas) Another loan has to be in place for Geis to qualify (here's info on it: http://www.cdfifund.gov/what_we_do/programs_id.asp?programID=5 (http://www.cdfifund.gov/what_we_do/programs_id.asp?programID=5))

Mr. Geis lives in Cleveland and has plenty of real estate experience.

Mr. Geis currently has no tenants; however, he is banking on the expansions of CWRU, CSU, and the Health Care Industries to produce enough demand to fill his "little building."

^Great summary- thanks! Interesting that Geis lives in the city- I wouldn't have guessed it for the proprietor of a Streetsboro based business.

The big red flag design-wise:Mr. Geis said the project will provide flex office space — space that can serve as offices and warehouse or assembly space with garage doors for truck entry — in the city. [Emphasis added]

Is this the development at E. 69 th street? Isn't suppose to go all the way to Carnegie (that beautiful boulevard)? If this is the case I would imagine garage doors would be off of 69th or some sort of access from Carnegie at the rear of the property, not on Euclid. My biggest concern is what it will look like on Eucild...since some of it is warehouse space I am concerned about large stretches of blank walls.

Is this the development at E. 69 th street? Isn't suppose to go all the way to Carnegie (that beautiful boulevard)? If this is the case I would imagine garage doors would be off of 69th or some sort of access from Carnegie at the rear of the property, not on Euclid. My biggest concern is what it will look like on Eucild...since some of it is warehouse space I am concerned about large stretches of blank walls.

The address according to the article is 6700 Euclid Ave.

From the previous article:

Geis, his brother Greg and the Coyne family also hope to build a technology center at Euclid Avenue and East 69th Street, in the heart of the Cleveland Health-Tech Corridor. The partners shared updated drawings of that project with city design officials last week. The Euclid Tech Center would target biotechnology and health care companies.

I think renderings of this project were posted here before, and if it's the one I'm thinking of, we pretty well ripped its design to shreds as being inappropriate for a transit/pedestrian corridor like Euclid. Others suggested it might be better on Carnegie.

^Actually, I don't think we've seen rendering. I believe someone described some early massing they saw, but that's about it. Tough to know what to expect until we hear/see more, I guess, but I'm optimistic there won't be garage doors facing Euclid.

The streets south of Euclid jump from 65th to 69th, so the site is described in different ways. In person, it's clearly marked with a big trailer with "Geis" written on the side. Pretty sure it's the big lot south of Euclid visible here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Cleveland,+OH&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.644047,106.083984&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&ll=41.503258,-81.641845&spn=0.002294,0.006475&z=18 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Cleveland,+OH&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.644047,106.083984&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&ll=41.503258,-81.641845&spn=0.002294,0.006475&z=18)

I can't recall if these were ever linked to before, but the Cleveland City Planning Commission website now has renderings of the proposed senior housing and supportive housing projects on Euclid in the mid 70s that were discussed above:

Not bad really, especially the second one. Unfortunately, in both cases, the limitations on who will live there will also limit spinoff potential. In that sense I think these represent lost opportunity for Euclid and should have been placed elsewhere.

I really like the old police station on Payne. I hope that there will be use made of the building and that it will not be demolished. It has a real old school police station look to it... It reminds me of Eliot Ness days.

Cleveland, developer work out unusual financing for Third District police station project

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A police station project in Cleveland could move 195 officers to Midtown and open up two city properties -- one in University Circle and the other near Cleveland State University -- for private development.

The city wants to build a new Third District police station on the former.... Read the rest at:

I am not usually the one to bust on a rendering because I understand that architecture is subjective(as I will profess my love for Moca in another thread), but where in Middleburgh Hts. is this going...uhgg

trust me, without knowing the details, and assuming the actual building will look nothing like that, its STILL a god send from what is there now. Despite the fact the current district is 50 years old, fairly confident the ONLY reason this is happening is the city will gain ALOT from selling the current site, all of which I support, however I don't think the needs of the city are a concern here as opposed to the needs of the cities pocketbook for the current real estate

CLEVELAND -- The state will grant $3.5 million to an office, laboratory and research building in the Midtown neighborhood, where a developer says he has several interested tenants and is ready to start construction "as soon as possible."

Lt. Gov. Lee Fisher announced at a news conference that the state will give its maximum grant for job-ready sites to the MidTown Tech Park, a $21 million project being developed by the Geis Cos. and the Coyne family. The project, formerly called the Euclid Tech Center, will comprise 128,500 square feet of offices, labs and research space, aimed at growing biomedical and technology companies.

At the southwest corner of Euclid Avenue and East 69th Street, the development site sits in the middle of the burgeoning Cleveland Health-Tech Corridor, a district that runs from East 22nd Street out to University Circle. Last month, state officials earmarked the corridor as a "Hub of Innovation and Opportunity," bringing the area a $250,000 matching grant and priority status for grants and loans awarded by the Ohio Department of Development and other state agencies.

actually, I don't think it is nearly as bad as it could have been. It's multi-storied, primarily brick, and by in large fronts euclid, with parking in the rear mainly visible to carnegie. of course I am not quite sure of the need for it to be on a 30 degree angle creating a small lawn... but it also does have 2 "front doors" on euclid, which make it more transit friendly. And of course not to mention.... if they can fill 130,000 sf of office space it could create a need for more of the type of development we would like to see in some of these barren lots around it.

Not sure why they wouldn't build a 4 story building and leave the remainder of the land for future development. Design is of course a complete disaster, offering the worst the suburbs have to offer. I'd really rather have an empty lot than allow this to set the precedent for future development in this area. Yet another sad trade: formly a high density, mixed use, transit dependent urban neighborhood for low density, insert cornice here architecture, "high tech" developement. We should be expecting more.

I agree with McCleveland about the design. The building itself is quite drab and 1995 but the setback could be a lot worse. It definitely has room for improvement aesthetically but hopefully they can add a bit more style for the final design.

I was definitely fearing a lot worse. If your goal is $14 psf leasable space, your building design is going to be pretty blah. I was more worried about there being a sea of surface parking in front of a single story building, which thankfully won't be the case. The lawn and angled setback are pretty awful though. I would have been fine with a smaller, uniform [non grass] landscaped set-back, but the angle is just gratuitous.

W28th (or anyone), would going up for stories on half the footprint increased the overall construction costs?

Best case is that this gets the ball rolling so that the market can support higher lease rates and better buildings down the line.

The rendering seems to contemplate the demo of the older brick bookstore building at the corner of 69th (see below), which I didn't think was part of the initial Geis land purchase. Anyone know if he now controls this parcel too? Would have been a nice gesture to keep that old shell, but I'm guessing Geis would disagree.

I was expecting a lot worse from Geis, as I could probably build many of their designs with one of those build-it-in-a-weekend steel building kits advertised on TV... http://www.us-buildings-direct.com/?cmp=150384 (http://www.us-buildings-direct.com/?cmp=150384)

While I'm surprised Geis has provided the building with windows, it's still way too suburban with no attempt at offering mixed-use or an inviting sidewalk presence with first-floor leasable spaces accessible from the sidewalk. In other words, the only people likely to be using this building are those working there. And that sure doesn't do much for pedestrianism.

The client and the architect should be asking: how many different uses and entry points to these differing uses are fronting Euclid? If it's just one, then do you realize that when developing in a city, you have a larger responsibility than only to your client or to your principal user? Responsibilities like increasing sidewalk activity, promoting interaction with nearby buildings by offering complementary uses and multiple access points, making walking interesting/inviting instead of boring/intimidating, enhancing security through natural surveillance (ie: eyes on the street), etc. etc. If they dismiss these things, then no wonder we end up with sexy fortresses and urban bunkers with no sidewalk activity and unrealized business opportunities. The perception to the passerby is that no one lives or works in the area.

Sadly (OK, frustratingly!), it takes a lot of searching to find some decent resources to show folks what we're talking about, and I doubt architects seeking to re-package another cookie-cutter suburban structure will take the incredible amount time I took to find these less-than dazzling resources....

http://www.oregon.gov/LCD/docs/publications/commmixedusecode.pdf?ga=t (http://www.oregon.gov/LCD/docs/publications/commmixedusecode.pdf?ga=t) (probably the best one I could find)

I don't think the design is that horrible, maybe not what we would prefer but still. The area could definitely use some development and this could help spure other development. We can't be to picky, im glad anything is going up. And i don't find them responsible for trying to increase sidewalk activity. I mean look at the area, its has a long way to go until there will be sidewalk activity. And this will look better then an empty lot. Imagine being a tourist and driving down the cities main street and seeing an ugly giant empty lot or a brand new brick and glass building. Which one would you prefer?

I was definitely fearing a lot worse. If your goal is $14 psf leasable space, your building design is going to be pretty blah. I was more worried about there being a sea of surface parking in front of a single story building, which thankfully won't be the case. The lawn and angled setback are pretty awful though. I would have been fine with a smaller, uniform [non grass] landscaped set-back, but the angle is just gratuitous.

W28th (or anyone), would going up for stories on half the footprint increased the overall construction costs?

Best case is that this gets the ball rolling so that the market can support higher lease rates and better buildings down the line.

Its hard to say for sure. One problem I see with an 8 story building is the cost of the elevator. Once you go over 7 stories (I'm pretty sure that's the cut-off) you have to get into a different type of elevator, different mechanically. You would probably have some increase in plumbing costs, taller building have to get water up to top.

You would save some cost on foundations and possibly civil work (not digging as much dirt out). Its hard to say either way, also potential tenants of senior housing might be more inclined to like a lower height building b/c it doesn't look as imposing and would have a more "residential" feel.

I was definitely fearing a lot worse. If your goal is $14 psf leasable space, your building design is going to be pretty blah. I was more worried about there being a sea of surface parking in front of a single story building, which thankfully won't be the case. The lawn and angled setback are pretty awful though. I would have been fine with a smaller, uniform [non grass] landscaped set-back, but the angle is just gratuitous.

W28th (or anyone), would going up for stories on half the footprint increased the overall construction costs?

Best case is that this gets the ball rolling so that the market can support higher lease rates and better buildings down the line.

That's the biggest misconception in construction. Just because a building looks good doesn't mean it costs more. Good Architects are very aware of construction costs and alternative materials. A good Architect can make a great design for any budget.

That's the biggest misconception in construction. Just because a building looks good doesn't mean it costs more. Good Architects are very aware of construction costs and alternative materials. A good Architect can make a great design for any budget.

I need this guys name.

$12-$14 is what you will see in the market for the area they are talking. We've found at Tyler that building out brand new space (including new systems, windows, new power..new, new, new, except for the exterior brick wall and concrete floor and ceilings) has brought us $65 to $85 PSF project costs (remember, have to pay the brokers, lawyers, designers, builders etc.. not just the contractor). That gets you to $15 PSF net pretty quickly if you want to get paid back in a reasonable amount of time (most people do).

Anyway, I don't know enough about the nuances of Geis' project, but I can assume he's been beating up his own guys to get to the $14 mark he's at. And pot shots asides about suburban office parks (which is admittedly been their wheel house), if you've ever worked with either the architect or engineer from Geis you'd have little to nothing negative to say about them. Absolutely class from start to finish.

I'm sure they're fine individuals, but they clearly can't design themselves out of a box.

Whatever. I'm happy Fred's working in Cleveland and putting his money into the city. If I had to do a design build somewhere in the city I'd happily hire his company for it. I've worked with other architects and builders in Cleveland and none of them provide the kind of professionalism and customer service to the level Geis does. At least from my experience working with tenants, owners, contractors and designers.

Does anyone have any information on the Upper Chester Project? The project is still listed on the Planning Commissions website so I would assume the project is still under serious consideration. Anyone know if there is a new groundbreaking date set or if the it's dead in the water.

In my opinion the project would have the greatest impact on the city as a whole by connecting the cleveland clinic and university circle area and making chester a vibrant street that will hopefully attract other developers to finish the job connecting downtown with the clinic/university circle area.

I'm sure they're fine individuals, but they clearly can't design themselves out of a box.

Whatever. I'm happy Fred's working in Cleveland and putting his money into the city. If I had to do a design build somewhere in the city I'd happily hire his company for it. I've worked with other architects and builders in Cleveland and none of them provide the kind of professionalism and customer service to the level Geis does. At least from my experience working with tenants, owners, contractors and designers.

I'm not speaking directly to any one company, but let me ask you a question. How does a contractor make their profit? By markup on materials and cutting corners on construction. Now if you have a designer in your back pocket, do you think the designer will object when they go to the job site and see what they had on the drawings is not how it is being constructed? Not if they want to keep their job.

Does anyone have any information on the Upper Chester Project? The project is still listed on the Planning Commissions website so I would assume the project is still under serious consideration. Anyone know if there is a new groundbreaking date set or if the it's dead in the water.

In my opinion the project would have the greatest impact on the city as a whole by connecting the cleveland clinic and university circle area and making chester a vibrant street that will hopefully attract other developers to finish the job connecting downtown with the clinic/university circle area.

I'm sure they're fine individuals, but they clearly can't design themselves out of a box.

Whatever. I'm happy Fred's working in Cleveland and putting his money into the city. If I had to do a design build somewhere in the city I'd happily hire his company for it. I've worked with other architects and builders in Cleveland and none of them provide the kind of professionalism and customer service to the level Geis does. At least from my experience working with tenants, owners, contractors and designers.

I'm not speaking directly to any one company, but let me ask you a question. How does a contractor make their profit? By markup on materials and cutting corners on construction. Now if you have a designer in your back pocket, do you think the designer will object when they go to the job site and see what they had on the drawings is not how it is being constructed? Not if they want to keep their job.

I'm sure they're fine individuals, but they clearly can't design themselves out of a box.

Whatever. I'm happy Fred's working in Cleveland and putting his money into the city. If I had to do a design build somewhere in the city I'd happily hire his company for it. I've worked with other architects and builders in Cleveland and none of them provide the kind of professionalism and customer service to the level Geis does. At least from my experience working with tenants, owners, contractors and designers.

I'm not speaking directly to any one company, but let me ask you a question. How does a contractor make their profit? By markup on materials and cutting corners on construction. Now if you have a designer in your back pocket, do you think the designer will object when they go to the job site and see what they had on the drawings is not how it is being constructed? Not if they want to keep their job.

I'm not getting what you're trying to say here.

He is saying that if an architect or civil constantly works for Geis, and constantly is invoicing Geis for work, then they are not going to do anyhing to destroy that relationship. Therefore, they will not say anything if Geis wants to change plans during construction. I don't know if I believe this though.

I'm not speaking directly to any one company, but let me ask you a question. How does a contractor make their profit? By markup on materials and cutting corners on construction. Now if you have a designer in your back pocket, do you think the designer will object when they go to the job site and see what they had on the drawings is not how it is being constructed? Not if they want to keep their job.

Geis has a design/build team, so he has an architect and an engineer on staff. Geis also bids out all their construction costs at the start of the year(is my understanding). So they can stay true to their credo: on time and on budget. Geis makes their money in multiple spots, is my guess. Be it land, rent, sale, construction supervision, etc. The key to their success is that they are one of the easiest companies to work with from the clients perspective. They check egos at the door and approach everything from the clients perspective.

So, when people ask Geis why a 2 story building, not a 4 story building, they should be asking whoever signed those letters of intent. That's who drives all of Geis developments. End users. And believe me, what they have on the drawings is always what is being constructed. The difference is the engineer/builder isn't fighting with the architect and pointing fingers at each other on cost over-runs.

* like how I go from Geis the individual to Geis the company in half a sentence? I need to brush up on my writing skills!

No the post still does not make sense...he said the contractor not the developer...the developer (Gies) is not making profit from the material markup. I agree X...not quite sure what he is getting at.

Gies doesn't do construction?

Yes they do. The are CM's on their jobs. They hire out GC's to do more than 50% of the work. Geis is a design builder similar to Turner on a much smaller scale. If you want a comparison, think Marous Brothers.

No the post still does not make sense...he said the contractor not the developer...the developer (Gies) is not making profit from the material markup. I agree X...not quite sure what he is getting at.

Gies doesn't do construction?

Yes they do. The are CM's on their jobs. They hire out GC's to do more than 50% of the work. Geis is a design builder similar to Turner on a much smaller scale. If you want a comparison, think Marous Brothers.

the building on the corner of the Geis site has been demolished. There has been a lot of preparation at this site so I would guess that it is moving along well. No actual construction yet but a lot of dirt moving

Pierre's Begins Work on New Ice Cream Factory in ClevelandBy Leader Staff. Published on 09/13/2010 - 2:27pm

This week, Pierre's Ice Cream begins construction on a new production facility that will be adjacent to the company's office and distribution center in Cleveland's Midtown district on Euclid Ave. The 35,000 square-foot facility will replace the Ohio-based company's ice cream plant near E. 65th Street and Carnegie Ave., and is scheduled for completion in Spring 2011.

They started laying the foundation for the Geis building in the last week and the setback looks like even less than in the picture. It honestly appears to be not much more than enough room for a flower bed.

That might be for the landscape. The building will be much larger. Also, they have the foundation going up on the project at Euclid and E. 75th'ish, I believe it is the senior low income housing. Appears to be 3 stories, right up to the curb.

On a side note, according to my sources, the building immediately west of the Geis project is also going to be tied into the site. It's a large multi-level warehouse that backs up behind Galucci's There is some sort of plan to run a roadway through there, although it's already possible to do so.

I am pretty sure that it is the foundation of the building but I guess I should elaborate that the max setback seems to be only about 7-8 feet but since the front setback is tapered most of it will be less than that. Now that this is finally under construction and the footprint of the building can be seen I think it will actually work pretty well in that spot. Building a new office building on that site that basically fronts the street in this economic climate is difficult to do and I think it will be a definite improvement.

On a side note, according to my sources, the building immediately west of the Geis project is also going to be tied into the site. It's a large multi-level warehouse that backs up behind Galucci's There is some sort of plan to run a roadway through there, although it's already possible to do so.

This two-square mile tract between downtown and University Circle is fast becoming one of the hottest regions for economic development. Indeed, it was recently designated by the State of Ohio as an official Hub of Innovation and Opportunity.

agreed. one concern we don't really discuss on here is the fact that this part of cleveland, will be priced much lower for office space than downtown...which has to be appealing to some degree to businesses. It would seem that a move from Downtown to Midtown would be a lot easier to orchestrate versus say moving from a Medina, Strongsville, or Beachwood would be to midtown

^The hope, though, is that the space will be occupied by biotech businesses. I don't think there are very many downtown to poach, other than JumpStart, which sounds like a good fit. Ideally this will project will lure all the fledgling companies currently in the incubators in UC or at the Clinic as they staff up and need more space. If so, it won't require much poaching from anywhere.

^The hope, though, is that the space will be occupied by biotech businesses. I don't think there are very many downtown to poach, other than JumpStart, which sounds like a good fit. Ideally this will project will lure all the fledgling companies currently in the incubators in UC or at the Clinic as they staff up and need more space. If so, it won't require much poaching from anywhere.

That's what I was thinking as well. To that end, having a company that's about to go to market share office space with JumpStart is a selling point for the building.

How about the CEO's comment that one of the main factors they moved to this location is because of free parking. Forget the fact that they are on the new healthline, they like the free parking. Come on, even if that is a main factor, he should have at least said they like the fact the are located right along the health line.

Once tenants move in, I wonder how many of them will use the HL for workday travel. From that location, it would actually be a pretty efficient way to head downtown or the Clinic for lunch or a meeting or something rather than finding a parking space.

Once tenants move in, I wonder how many of them will use the HL for workday travel. From that location, it would actually be a pretty efficient way to head downtown or the Clinic for lunch or a meeting or something rather than finding a parking space.

Probably a fair amount. A family member had a software company in the Case incubator right near Cedar hill back in the late 90's early 2000's, and the programmers loved the location because they all rode the bus, or hopped off the red line rapid to get there.

agreed. one concern we don't really discuss on here is the fact that this part of cleveland, will be priced much lower for office space than downtown...which has to be appealing to some degree to businesses. It would seem that a move from Downtown to Midtown would be a lot easier to orchestrate versus say moving from a Medina, Strongsville, or Beachwood would be to midtown

That hasn't exactly played out. The only "cheap option" these new buildings offer or new construction offers has been in the form of free parking. Otherwise the rental rates you see in Geis project on E.C. are not dissimilar than what you'd expect to see in a downtown office building.

The reality is free parking and easy parking are huge factors in business location decisions. I like when I have creative owners who offer to buy bus passes etc. for their employees, but most owners know that parking for their employees will be a major requirement.

I wonder if the city of Cleveland could figure out a way to create a massive parking structure that offered abundant and free parking, the city could attract more companies from the burbs/keep more companies from moving. Find some way to offset the costs with new income tax coming in by way of employee hiring.. (I have no idea how that would work, actually). Anyway, free parking in MidTown is a big draw, maybe bigger than the HL.

^The problem with that however is, if free parking proves to be a huge draw in Midtown, then that's they type of development we can expect to see. Lets face it, there is plenty of room in Midtown to develop office buildings with huge asphalt parking lots. Even if the lots are hidden behind the buildings, we are not creating any type of density whatsoever that you should around a brand new BRT line.

^The problem with that however is, if free parking proves to be a huge draw in Midtown, then that's they type of development we can expect to see. Lets face it, there is plenty of room in Midtown to develop office buildings with huge asphalt parking lots. Even if the lots are hidden behind the buildings, we are not creating any type of density whatsoever that you should around a brand new BRT line.

^The problem with that however is, if free parking proves to be a huge draw in Midtown, then that's they type of development we can expect to see. Lets face it, there is plenty of room in Midtown to develop office buildings with huge asphalt parking lots. Even if the lots are hidden behind the buildings, we are not creating any type of density whatsoever that you should around a brand new BRT line.

And we'll end up with a traffic nightmare.

Then we'll have more folks using the HealthLine

Really, this could go on and on. While it is fine to call for a maximum number of parking spaces per 1,000 s.f., if the land costs are low enough right now for lower density development and surface parking, the best that can legally be done is to call for buildings to come to the property line. Over time, the space behind low-slung buildings that is used for parking will be built upon as property values rise with the attraction of new businesses.

Density doesn't come overnight in non-CBDs. Even edge cities like Independence began with a few four-story buildings and surface parking. Only later were taller buildings and parking garages constructed.

Yes and no. I think that it's quite possible design wise, if not legally, to plan projects so that they are designed around autos today, but so that they can be phased into a denser form. But it has to be thought out ahead of time- the neighborhood plan would need to proscribe that a "densification strategy" (my term) be a part of any development and define what that would look like, codify it somehow(the legality of such a code is what I'm unsure of), and then have an oversight body with the balls to enforce it.

Landscaped setbacks and distributed surface parking are probably two of the hardest parts of auto-oriented site planning to undue and I think this project is OK on those two counts. If there were ever sufficient demand, Geis & co. could build some structured parking on some of that large internal surface lot to free up land for new leasable space. Definitely good to plan for that kind of future...but it's hard to imagine it anytime soon.

Even without high initial density, there's still a lot to be done to focus on pedestrian/transit rider environment so at least people have viable options other than driving [preaching to the choir, I know].

I wonder if the city of Cleveland could figure out a way to create a massive parking structure that offered abundant and free parking, the city could attract more companies from the burbs/keep more companies from moving. Find some way to offset the costs with new income tax coming in by way of employee hiring..

It may also make paid surface lots seem less appealing so perhaps the owners would be more open to developing them into buildings.

On Monday, Ohio state officials released the names of three historic buildings that will benefit from Ohio’s Brownfield Revolving Loan Fund – Toledo’s Madison Building, Cleveland’s Agora Theater, and Youngstown State University’s Garfield Building. The three will each receive $200,000 to help remove asbestos from the buildings.

While this is an old press release, it may answer whether this project is doomed by the state's general budget deficit (see bold red text). From this press release, I don't think it is. The general fund and the capital budget are legally separate pots of money, so my thought is that it's unlikely that this project will be canceled. And, since this project will unite two hospitals into one, it's likely that this capital cost will reduce operating costs in the state's deficit-ridden general fund:

The Ohio Department of Mental Health, in collaboration with the City of Cleveland, has identified a site for its new regional psychiatric hospital on the Midtown Health Line in the vicinity of Euclid Avenue and East 59th Street. After the state-city agreement is finalized, design and construction will take up to four years.

"The City of Cleveland has been instrumental in helping the state determine the best site for this hospital and we are very grateful for their continued support of this project," said Governor Ted Strickland. "Through this partnership we will be able to provide improved services to patients and offer easy access for family and friends visiting the facility."

When opened, the new hospital will care for patients currently receiving services at the two aging facilities of Northcoast Behavioral Healthcare, the 86-year-old 10-story tower in Cleveland and the multiple buildings located in Northfield. The size of the new hospital will accommodate a comparable number of patients as are currently served in the two locations combined. The Midtown site will be well-served by public transportation.

"Moving forward with this project is very positive news. Citizens of Northeast Ohio will benefit through continued quality care in a clinically modern psychiatric hospital," said ODMH Director Sandra Stephenson. "This consolidated facility will substantially benefit the department withlongterm cost savings through efficiencies in maintenance and overhead. Additionally, the hospital will be a LEED (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) certified green building, using strategies aimed at improving energy efficiency, indoor environmental quality and stewardship of our resources."

The state will pay $150,000 per acre for 14 acres that are "shovel-ready." The City of Cleveland will garner tax revenue and jobs will be created or maintained in Northeast Ohio.

"I am pleased that the State of Ohio is pursuing this site in the City of Cleveland for a consolidated state-of-the-art regional facility. We will continue to work with the state toward the fulfillment of this goal," said Mayor Frank G. Jackson.

Funding for the hospital was appropriated in previous budget cycles through the state's capital spending plan. The process to find a site that was appropriate and feasible involved the collaboration of many people, including the Mayor's office, Cuyahoga County Commissioners, Northeast Ohio legislators and other local and state officials.

Didnt know about this.One of the places to shop in Midtown appears as though it's going to be getting a facelift. I wonder how extensive and historically accurate this will be. There's some great detail on this bldg at 5005 Euclid Ave.

"Cleveland Construction will manage the complete renovations of the 166,721 square-foot multiple-story structure along with the addition of a new entrance for the buildings office workers."

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald, Ohio House Minority Leader Armond Budish and State Rep. Sandra Williams insisted on Thursday that Kasich should reverse course and bring the hospital back to Cleveland.

"We're not willing to accept anything else," Jackson said at the news conference.

FitzGerald said the decision not to build the hospital in Cleveland is bad public policy because it undermines efforts by government agencies to work cooperatively while hurting the needs of vulnerable citizens.

This will clearly have Kasich shaking in his boots...and I am sure he justifies this in his own mind by reflecting that he is an equal opportunity screwer....take away the Cincy streetcar and Cleveland's mental hospital. This will be a vacant lot for years to come.

No crystal ball, but I'm not sure it will be vacant all that long. The article also mentions several million the city already spent there for site prep. Between that and the BRT and the Clinic nearby, it has plenty going for it.

My concern is that so many leaders on so many levels, particularly Fitzgerald, are dead set on making this a social services district. I just think those needs could be met in a much less destructive way, planning-wise. Euclid should be the Main Street of all Cleveland residents, of all area residents... not just the most needy and vulnerable.

Concentrating our problems on Main Street isn't going to help anyone, including the needy and vulnerable. They deserve a city they can be proud of as much as anyone else does. And they need their city to attract new investment, new jobs, new tax base. A Main Street lined with various crisis centers isn't going to get us there. This isn't about hiding our problems, or slighting those in our community who have problems... it's about putting our best foot forward, as a community, so that our most vulnerable residents can one day have better lives all around.

Kasich continues to show his anti-urban bias. But this is a continuation of a similar anti-urban bias in Ohio policies for many decades and by both political parties. I'm hopeful this speaking out is only a start by Ohio's urban leaders who can and should take back their state from the rural and exurban interests.

Needed: private developer + private financing. "We" can help fill any slight shortfalls through tax breaks, credits, incentives, grants, etc. But the horse has to come before the horse. For instance, "we" can insist that the lot at 55th and Euclid is zoned for a mixed use development replete with stores, residences, a hockey arena, and a 5 star hotel, all connected by light rail. "We" can zone it for that particular purpose. "We" can refuse variances and at least try to fight off the lawsuits which ensue (even though defeat would be nearly certain). "We" can set whatever platitudes we want, but "we" can only do so much. All that said, there is nothing wrong with advocating for those platitutes and dreaming that one day they will be within reach.

But if "we" instead advocate for social services and pedestrian-unfriendly development all along Main Street, it seems likely we'll get just that. So far we have. "We" begged Applied Industrial to put their fortress where they did. "We" said forget Strongsville, we got your Strongsville right here on Euclid a few blocks from CSU. You're talking about restrictions but I'm talking about active solicitation. Demanding this facility on this site is just one more sterling example. There are entire threads here bemoaning the car-centric suburban impact of all the hospitals on Euclid. Do we really believe this one would be all that different? Why double down on a recognized problem? I'd otherwise never suggest this, but the city/county/CDC's efforts here have been so misguided that maybe we'd be better served by a hands-off libertarian approach.

I was at the CPC meeting on March 18th and specifically asked them about the future of the Agora. Reps told me that they are not planning on demoing it and they have the owners on board for an eventual renovation and will be used as a concert hall. I asked if there's a specific time for it; they said no timetable was set but "it is down the road".

(decided to add a couple other notes regarding midtown from the meeting, since the Cleveland Health Tech Corridor consortium gave a presentation, consisting of Midtown, GCP, Team NEO, Cleveland Found.):

They want to eventually demo 6611 Euclid (it's still owned privately), and eventually brand the surrounding area as the "Central Park of the HTC". 6611 is next to Dunham Tavern and a Green Corps project.

The presentation was the last one of a nearly 3 hour meeting, so I wasn't paying as much attention.. :lol:

Thanks for the report Skorasaurus. I believe 6611 Euclid is owned by RTA unless they finally sold it off. Last I heard they were going to sell it to a backer of Dunham so it (6611) could be demoed and the Dunham open space expanded. I think the MidTown masterplan we discussed earlier also envisioned this block as an organizing green space for the area. Not sure I really get the concept, but doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of other interest in 6611 after what RTA did to it to widen Euclid, and that building is a major eyesore.

Regarding Dunham Tavern Park and 6611 Euclid. I happen to agree with the Cleveland area history blog -- that that 6611 should be considered a supporting structure for Dunham Tavern. Meaning that Dunham is remarkable not only because it is the oldest building in the City, but also because it survived for so long on Euclid ave -- when the rest of the nearby real estate was sold off to create multilevel industrial buildings.

Who would use 6611? Has anyone offered to take over this building? If not, how long can this mammoth structure be allowed to sit there unused and rotting? Or is it's purpose to serve as a kind of artwork form for comparison purposes with the Dunham Tavern? If that's its function, then I couldn't disagree more with the history blog. Buildings exist to provide form AND function, and a huge rotting building contributes nothing to the economy, tax base, vitality and livability of a city.

Please level 6611. I can't imagine how a great company like Gallucci's who has invested a lifetime of service to the community has had to endure that eyesore all of these years. Those who live and work within a stones throw of that building should decide it's fate.

Regarding Dunham Tavern Park and 6611 Euclid. I happen to agree with the Cleveland area history blog -- that that 6611 should be considered a supporting structure for Dunham Tavern. Meaning that Dunham is remarkable not only because it is the oldest building in the City, but also because it survived for so long on Euclid ave -- when the rest of the nearby real estate was sold off to create multilevel industrial buildings.

I do support the concept of the central park of HTC -- but i think it can be had by acquiring other parcels than 6611.

I hear you, I would definitely much rather see 6611 get redeveloped sometime soon than demoed. It would be an amazing juxtaposition with Dunham Tavern. I guess most of us are just getting impatient and would rather see green space at this point than that empty hulk sit there for another 5-10+ years. I have no idea who else has shown interest in the building or how much money they would pay but certainly haven't heard anything encouraging.

It's frustrating, because in its pre-Euclid Corridor condition, 6611 and the shorter building to its west had great facades and didn't show so much visible distress (if I'm remembering correctly). One wonders if RTA couldn't have found a more elegant solution than eating that building's face and demolishing its neighbor, such as moving the E65th station a block west. Or just not having that station at all, considering how close the next ones are in either direction.

As it stands now, it is a sore thumb. I just wonder why they wouldn't just demo it when they tore the facade off. I rarely support a demo, but this one would just be the right thing to do no matter where our imagination could possibly take us. At present, the building is symbolic of the current negativity towards MidTown and perhaps its demo may lead to a much needed change in perception, even if it would have little to no immediate effect on reality.

RTA was hoping a developer would buy and redevelop the shell as a large and prominent TOD. With hindsight it clearly hasn't worked out (not yet anyway), but I don't blame RTA for trying this out as an alternative to a full demo. It's an eyesore, but I doubt it's really inhibiting any other development in the area.

No.... but it is symbolic in a bad way. This is exactly what the naysayers expect and want to see when they drive down Euclid.

I totally agree at this point, unless a serious developer as a serious proposal right now. This disposition process has been going on for years now.

Really, it's just annoying that the existing buildings were altered. Maybe RTA had to, or maybe the stop could have been relocated and the street didn't have to be widened, who knows. Just frustrating to butcher and ultimately demolish handsome buildings that from the outside at least seemed like great conversion candidates and readymade TOD before the project.

We're not talking about such buildings in general, we're talking about this one, on this site, pretty much across the street from one of the biggest for-profit investments in the corridor in a long time, which clearly wasn't impeded. Anyway, if you think the SW quadrant of Shaker Square is increasingly untenable now, I'd love to hear your ideas for luring development here ;)

We're not talking about such buildings in general, we're talking about this one, on this site, pretty much across the street from one of the biggest for-profit investments in the corridor in a long time, which clearly wasn't impeded. Anyway, if you think the SW quadrant of Shaker Square is increasingly untenable now, I'd love to hear your ideas for luring development here ;)

Good thing you didn't have your finger on the button for 668 Euclid when it was a hulking, scary, symbolic eyesore for all those years :-P

Geez, anyway, I agree it needs to come down at this point.

For kicks, it's fun to look back at the HealthLine thread when RTA was announcing its plans for 6611 Euclid- about page 34: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2840.msg229923/topicseen.html#msg229923 (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2840.msg229923/topicseen.html#msg229923)

Quay 55 looked worse than this building before it was renovated. But I think you would get laughed out of any developer's board room if you even suggested that you could fill a building this size, at this location, with market-rate (or above) residents.

^You should have told RTA that 3+ years ago when they shaved the facade and secured it.

EDIT: In fairness, I doubt anyone ever expected this building to be a residential conversion. And in further fairness, the Quay 55 developers should have been laughed out of their board room too based on its performance.

Its not even 6611 itself that I have a problem with, I actually think the building can be saved. But it is just so out of place. If this building was situated in the WD for instance I could see it being rehabbed. But its placement is just so odd that I don't see how it could work. Besides the amount of investment would be astronomical, I don't see how an investor would realize any ROI in their lifetime. But what really burns me is how 6611 and buildings in that shape are permitted to be in such disrepair for that amount of time without any consequences. In this case RTA is the slum landlord in question and a fine should be levied on them for every day that building exists. I feel the same towards other building such as the Breuer tower that are allowed to sit in disrepair over an extended period of time. In that case the county should be fined in the same manner. I guarantee you if 6611 were sitting on the corner of Joe Calabrees's street it would have been either demo'd or refurrbed by now.

The Case Western Reserve National Children’s Study Center will soon have approximately 15 people employed and working at the new office space (4600 Euclid Ave.). This new space is the Study Center’s first permanent location; it previously was located in borrowed space at the School of Medicine.

It will also employ nearly 35 field workers who are in and out of the space as a home base. New people may be hired as the project expands. Various subcontractors (who are off site) include staff at the Cuyahoga County Board of Health, Invest in Children, University Hospitals, Cleveland Clinic and MetroHealth, along with others subcontracted to help with the study. The study also funds related research at Case Western Reserve University.

Right now (at 10:30 a.m.) Mayor Jackson is attending the grand opening and tour of the $9.2 million expansion of the Pierre's Ice Cream plant, 6200 Euclid Ave. There is an e-mailed press release, but the PDF is an image so I can't copy and paste the text.

Wonder if this will cause investor interest in the vacant seven-story warehouse across the street from Gallucci's? I had written that building off, and maybe I still should, but it seems the other investments nearby increases the pressure to do something positive with this highly visible structure.

Now it's clear that the greatly fire-damaged western building of Erie Square is indeed being rebuilt and, as of the past few days, huge supports have been installed along the brick shell. Makes me feel real good to see this 1920s apartment building come back to life and house those who really need it. And the residents will get all new apartments - assumably quite different from those of the eastern building - with brand new features.

Of course, the whole complex may have gotten extensively renovated in the past, so I don't know what '20s original features may still be intact, but at least the exteriors will be Euclid Avenue of the 1920s. I've read when the duo was built there was a house in front. I'm sure this was considered luxury apartments when constructed. :clap:

What's going on with that occupied building, to the west of the Dunham Tavern area, with all the scaffolding on the west side? I see they're working on the facade too. Will this become an all-modern exterior? No, it's not included in the project list posted here of 6/20/2011.

I usually go by on bus or occasionally drive by on way to work or one weekend when no one's there. HealthLine lanes on Euclid sure don't encourage one's parking on the street or even going slowly to look over a project. :-( Sometimes I just ask a question here with the hopes someone can answer quickly, with no special effort.

Someone in this forum, a few months ago, seemed to be enough familiar with Dunham Tavern's general practices that he stated he thinks they paint one wall a year - something like that. I don't think that's quite true but whomever that was - do you have a clue what's going on there? They're always doing and not finishing funny things with the walls, and now there are several areas of clapboard painted a bright red.

So what the deuce is going on? I don't want to call them cold and ask, and there is no e-mail address on the web.... :wtf:

I just wrote again to Dunham, specifically asking if there might originally have been shutters (as there were shutters on the place for many decades - removed with the Gaede restoration/renovation. I got a response that the current color was determined to be approximately the original, as some 28 coats of paint were researched. The red, interestingly, is strips of wood that were leftover from the barn construction project. They will be painted over the gray color like the surroundings.

It will be exciting to see what else is coming down the line with the Heath-Tech Corridor Projects...

Cleveland HeartLab signs lease in Midtown; fast-growing company part of Health-Tech Corridor:

"HeartLab plans to sign a 10-year lease today for 27,000 square feet at the MidTown Tech Park, a rare project built without tenants in hand. A niche lab focused on biological markers tied to heart disease and stroke, HeartLab rebuffed an offer from an East Coast buyer, chose to stay in Cleveland...

"We think it will take us less than a year to have it fully occupied," said Terry Coyne, a Grubb & Ellis broker representing the property. Coyne's family also invested in the project."

"Developer Dick Pace, whose nearby Baker Electric Building is filled with small tenants, is negotiating with the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority to buy a dilapidated building at 6611 Euclid Ave. The building could become another option for growing companies that - like HeartLab - otherwise might leave."

Got some responses from Dunham, though lady couldn't answer my question whether or not house/tavern originally had shutters....The red is only there because they replaced some bad clapboards with those unneeded with the barn project. Two sides - south and another - are being painted the pale gray, which I'm told has been determined the original color after some 28 layers were examined. That sort of thing is quite significant to us preservation purists. :clap:

"We think it will take us less than a year to have it fully occupied," said Terry Coyne, a Grubb & Ellis broker representing the property. Coyne's family also invested in the project.

MidTown Tech Park developer Fred Geis said he hopes to open one new project in the corridor each year.

That's just shocking to me. That's a lot of square footage!

I keep hoping that this will also put more pressure on filling downtown buildings, or for creating demand for new ones. But I'm just as happy that Midtown is getting this kind of development to restore lost density and build on all those vacant lots. If more housing is mixed in, then this can be an active area 24/7. That's really my only concern: that Midtown is a dead zone after 5 p.m. and that can be a little intimidating.

Considering that more new-hires are coming to the region to work in these new places, at the Clinic, work/study at the universities and elsewhere, a mix of permanent and extended-stay housing in this corridor might be worth adding. It's a good spot for "entry-level living/welcome-wagon housing" with the HealthLine bus route and being midway between the region's two largest employment centers. Just my opinion.

EDIT: and my suggested locations for "entry-level living/welcome-wagon housing" are 1. between Euclid and Chester between East 69th and East 70th where there are already a few single-family homes, and 2. on the SW corner of Euclid and East 55th where something with a little more density/height might be considered.

Wondering if they're going to paint all the brick red now, like on east side. The ultimate would be to restore the whole exterior but obviously that's not in the works, as west side already has the new windows. Whole thing looks somewhat better, anyway.

I'm pretty sure that lafont was talking about the Salvation Army building, which is being renovated by Cleveland Construction Co. ( http://www.clevelandconstruction.com/InteriorDetail.aspx?ProjectID=94 (http://www.clevelandconstruction.com/InteriorDetail.aspx?ProjectID=94)) and should look quite nice and be a visual 'plus' when it's all done... or at least more than it previously was. The building fits in with the little cluster around the Agora Theater. It is true that the flat eastern side was painted over with red, but I HOPE they do not intend on doing that to the western side and the front. There is some nice detail in the yellow brick side.

Also, at the risk of bringing up the Dunham, it's exterior freshening up is done and now Cleveland's oldest building is good to go for a few (several?) years. She looks as good as she did in 1824.

Sure - I was referring to the Salvation Army building. I think renovation of existing buildings is perfectly appropriate in a "Filling In Euclid Avenue" forum. If we start fragmenting every project going on in the Corridor into separate forums it would be far too many forums and far too little continuity. Painting of Dunham, restoring bldg. east of Dunham, adding an outdoor terrace to Galucci's, remodeling Salvation Army - they're not exactly all "filling in" but they certainly are investing in Euclid Avenue" and I think that's what this particular forum has been all about from the beginning. 8-)

So what's now going on with 7000 Euclid? Major project, I see. I know one or two here had mentioned it but there was discussion about the bi plans for 7100, and there's still no sign any construction is going on there. In fact there an area on the west side borded up - ugly!As for 7000, I'm very glad to see the terra-cotta respected and the new windows are an acceptable design. Big parking lot on west side? That's not so nice but I don't know what the alternative would be. I supposed with some imagination and $ the new lot could be made reasonably attractive. For urban values, however, I'd like to see a new building there facing Euclid and parking only behind. :yap:

Every year, Cleveland’s growing healthcare economy nourishes dozens of successful start-up companies. Until recently, however, once these firms outgrew their space at the Cleveland Clinic or one of the city’s business incubators, they almost inevitably fled to the suburbs or moved out of the region. That’s because the city lacked the real estate product they needed: flexible, technology-ready office space with room to grow.

But now, thanks to the recent completion of the 128,000-square-foot MidTown Tech Park on Euclid Avenue, start-ups that once left for the ‘burbs have good reason to stick around. Last month, Hemingway Development, which built the MidTown Tech Park on a former used car lot on a spec, inked a 10-year deal to lease 27,000 square feet to Cleveland HeartLab. The fast-growing start-up, which has swelled from eight to 80 employees in just two years, plans to move in next month.

If more housing is mixed in, then this can be an active area 24/7. That's really my only concern: that Midtown is a dead zone after 5 p.m. and that can be a little intimidating.

I'm with you. But even if they put a sprinkle of housing here, a sprinkle there... I think the dead zone aspect is a done deal at this point. I wish these tech center projects all the best. I really do. But I still view them as a mismatch.

If more housing is mixed in, then this can be an active area 24/7. That's really my only concern: that Midtown is a dead zone after 5 p.m. and that can be a little intimidating.

Parts of downtown are still a dead zone after 5 p.m. I think it will be a long time till we can call midtown a 24/7 area. Not in our lifetimes. I just hope we can call downtown one, which I think is possible in the the next 15 years.

yes. having businessness in the area will never lead to foot traffic because having one of the three components necessary for mixed use day and night activization of an area is a really bad thing. apartments alone are the only way to create foot traffic because from 9 to 5 there will certainly be hundreds if not thousands of people not working walking around their apartments.

The idea that there's no money doesn't fly. Yes there is money. We see it getting spent all the time. Cleveland just delivered new trash dumpsters to every property in town. We used to have retail-free ghetto, now we have retail-free ghetto with recycling. I've never heard anyone say "I might move to Cleveland, but...

...there's no recycling."...the grass at the Zone rec center isn't properly irrigated." ...they don't add bike lanes every single time they fix a road."...I need bumpouts to cross a street."...the West Shoreway just plain sucks."...the parks need to be torn up and rebuilt."...there aren't enough suburban plazas and single family homes."

Yet a fortune is being spent "fixing" all these non-problems. I agree that money is the issue, but not the existence of money, rather the choices our leaders make in spending it. Based on budgets alone, one might assume Cleveland was a perfectly robust and functional city whose major challenges are traffic and landscaping.

As soon as the Euclid Corridor project was green-lighted, we should have focused our resources on creating a premier city street, modeled after other premier city streets around the world. Instead we've proceeded as if we didn't deserve such a thing. What's that? Someone wants to build a pedestrian dead zone along our new transit line? Thank heavens. That's the best we could hope for during the concrete's useful life.

I do think a lot of the money the city spends could go to better things. I do like the euclid corridor project though. I dont have any problem with the city letting someone build in midtown. Midtown is not going to be a walkable area anytime soon. Or 24/7 like I said before. And jobs in the area will help foot traffic. We need to focus on our better neighborhoods first, such as downtown and University Circle which still aren't completely walkable and active areas 24/7.

I dont agree necessarily with the remarks that projects like the West Shoreway Conversion will help tremendously and help neighborhoods boom, like Detroit Shoreway and Ohio City. Instead of investing in a road and hoping for the best, that $70 million(or whatever it is at now) could be directly invested into those neighborhoods to guarantee success.

And like I said in another thread, Im not against the Medical Mart and Convention center in anyway. But imagine what that $400 Million could do for the warehouse district. Fill in those lots, add residents to downtown, new office space, as well as retail space. That would benefit the city far more that the medical mart and convention center could ever dream of doing.

That's exactly it. We need to refocus all this spending on the city itself. And I really believe that if we'd done that, we could have opened possibilities for Midtown that otherwise seem impossibly remote. Those arguing most strongly that the current developments are appropriate rely heavily on the slim chance that anything else could happen. But what if it could? I bet you $400 million that $400 million in residential and retail subsidies would have changed the prospects of Midtown Euclid Avenue considerably. And a transformation of that magnitude, between downtown and the hospitals, might have convinced some company to come here and build a Medical Mart all by their ding dong selves.

Im wondering if something like this would work. But lets say if the city/county had $400 Million, like they have for the Medical Mart/Convention Center. Instead of using the money to completely finance one project, could the city work with private developers in order to get things done. Maybe give a developer $100 Million as partial financing for the warehouse district. Maybe another $100 Million for something on Euclid Avenue. Keep breaking up the money, $50 Million here, $50 million there, etc. I feel like developers would jump on the opportunity to build in Cleveland, at essentially a discounted price.

Im wondering if something like this would work. But lets say if the city/county had $400 Million, like they have for the Medical Mart/Convention Center. Instead of using the money to completely finance one project, could the city work with private developers in order to get things done. Maybe give a developer $100 Million as partial financing for the warehouse district. Maybe another $100 Million for something on Euclid Avenue. Keep breaking up the money, $50 Million here, $50 million there, etc. I feel like developers would jump on the opportunity to build in Cleveland, at essentially a discounted price.

Absolutely. But even if if takes all 400 to get just one area going (WHD or EC), so be it. We're still miles ahead of today.

Im wondering if something like this would work. But lets say if the city/county had $400 Million, like they have for the Medical Mart/Convention Center. Instead of using the money to completely finance one project, could the city work with private developers in order to get things done. Maybe give a developer $100 Million as partial financing for the warehouse district. Maybe another $100 Million for something on Euclid Avenue. Keep breaking up the money, $50 Million here, $50 million there, etc. I feel like developers would jump on the opportunity to build in Cleveland, at essentially a discounted price.

The City does do that as the Port is involved in a lot of financing deals. However, the City does not have $50 million to just throw at developers to jump start projects and not expect ROI. If a developer needs some infrastructure work done, or something that services the public in general, that is one thing..... but asking the City to sink its own money into projects which would be for profit ventures by private corporations and not expect their money back, that is quite something different. And that is what would have to happen for there to be a "discounted price".

MMPI is not the owner of the MM/CC... they are just the company hired to operate it. It is a public project being built with public dollars and you see the sh!tstorm of scrutiny it is being placed under. You expect a private developer to accept all that red tape? The MM is more akin to building a sports arena than it is like building non subsidized housing.

The past few days I notice when passing the fire-damaged Euclid Square apartment building that the sides and rear are all collapsed - only the facade and a small part of each sidewall remain. I was wondering if they could possibly go ahead with so much damage and so much refuse. I'm wondering if this was their plan all along or if the walls simply collapsed. Anyway I'm so glad the facade and some more are being retained, and I can't wait to see how they finish off all the rest. If their plan is to match all or most (at least exterior) details they have to go no farther than the twin and occupied structure to the east! :clap:

Developer plans to rehab Euclid Ave. site for lab spaceVictory Building seen as Health-Tech Corridor assetBy JAY MILLER4:30 am, October 31, 2011

A new owner, a change in strategy and some public money are enabling a vacant building that almost rubs shoulders with the Cleveland Clinic to be rehabilitated.

Garson Victory LLC, a partnership led by real estate broker Scott Garson, plans a $24 million transformation of the four-story, red brick Victory Building at 7012 Euclid Ave. into a mixed-use complex that could serve tenants in need of office, research and laboratory space. The investment would open 165,000 square feet for growing businesses in what's called the Health-Tech Corridor between downtown and Cleveland Clinic.

“One of our most successful strategies is to take businesses from the incubators and keep them in the city of Cleveland to grow here instead of moving to the suburbs, as many have in the past,” Tracey Nichols, Cleveland's director of economic development, told a City Council committee Oct. 24 in support of the city's financial assistance. The legislation authorizing the plan was passed by council that evening.

The Crain's article mentions that the 128,000 square foot MidTown Tech Park (the new Geis building) is nearly filled. Is that true? I have read in the past that they had many promising leads, but first time I have heard that is it actually nearly fully leased.

^There's been reporting of actual leases at MidTown Tech park (Jumpstart, Cleveland Heartlab) and Geiss/Hemmingway seemed pretty confident that it would fill quickly, but it's great to see something like that in print.

This is awesome news about the Victory Building. Some actual momentum going on here, even with this crap economy. If Dick Paces' proposed rehab of the faceless building next to Dunham happens, just wow. That's the announcement I really hope to see one of these days.

This was published in Crain's this a.m and I'm surprised someone here hasn't already posted it:http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20111031/SUB1/310319983# (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20111031/SUB1/310319983#)As you can see it's the latest and probably most successful plan for the former Victory Building (aka "Arts Building in the late '70s or early '80s, etc.). "$24 million" to be pumped into this former car dealership - quite a hefty sum to pour into it. I'm very glad! the sooner the better.

This was published in Crain's this a.m and I'm surprised someone here hasn't already posted it:http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20111031/SUB1/310319983# (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20111031/SUB1/310319983#)As you can see it's the latest and probably most successful plan for the former Victory Building (aka "Arts Building in the late '70s or early '80s, etc.). "$24 million" to be pumped into this former car dealership - quite a hefty sum to pour into it. I'm very glad! the sooner the better.

It was posted in the Cleveland: Midtown Developments Forumhttp://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3435.0.html (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3435.0.html)

There's going to be a lot more commercial re-use of existing buildings first. The extent of vacant buildings is a far more pressing problem, and growing commercial activity spilling over from the nearby University Circle area appears to be a much stronger driver than residential right now (see the Crains article's reference to that). We might see increased demand for residential in this area someday soon, but it doesn't seem to be there now even for a relatively low-cost rehab of a three-story building. A high-rise in this area? The rents aren't even that high in downtown or University Circle to support that, let alone in a neighborhood still trying to shed its ghetto past.

I work in midtown and drive through it daily. I love what's happening at Euclid and E. 70'ish. One thing I can see happening is eventually all of the empty buildings and empty lots being transformed into bustling tech buildings, as we see it is already happening. What I am more anxious to see is where developers will spill out to. Chester Avenue near Dunham area has no developments or housing or anything on the south side of the street. There are actually fields of grass with very large mature trees. I am not old enough to know if anything ever existed along this area of Chester, but I do hope this is the next area where progression takes the developers once Euclid is fully built out (3, 5, 10 years...?) at which point I could picture some 30-40 story apartments!

Every lot in this part of Cleveland was solidly filled in with buildings until recent years. And most of the streets ran through before this part of Chester was cut through - as sort of a "parkway" - in the 1940s.

After I posted the "Crain's" article I found it can't be opened on this site, unfortunately. But then neither can the one posted from the Midtown forum. Sorry. I don't currently have full access to all the Crain's online articles, but I had gotten it through a Google search (""Euclid Avenue' and 'Crain's' and 'October 31, 2011'" or something like that) and the whole article came up.... Funny how these things work.

Interesting, thanks for that tidbit. There is not much info. out there on Chester. It does seem like a parkway cut through now that I think about it. Sadly, it's nothing like MLK Parkway, which would be pretty cool. All it is today is mcmansions on one side of the street and nothing on the other side, with the exception of a castle tucked away down one street and of course Beacon Place once you pass E. 79th.

high-rise in this area? The rents aren't even that high in downtown or University Circle to support that, let alone in a neighborhood still trying to shed its ghetto past.

I know there aren't but I think both Downtown and UC could support high rise residences. And given financing, condos are difficult to buy and build, and with the current economy and folks leaving single family homes, the demand for apartments is very strong--across the US. To reduce each unit price, apartments do not have to be giant 1200-2000sq feet units, they could be much smaller and thus more per floor and more affordable for the builder (and cheaper for the tenant) (and will also provide for more density and thus more street level retail).

Ok, maybe not high rises in midtown yet, but it would be nice to mix up the area between (non-high rise) residential and commercial so its not a dead zone after working hours...

Regarding Erie Square it sure will be interesting to see how they handle the reconstruction of most of the western twin. So extremely glad they saved the facade and a little beyond! Wonder what kind of insurance they had and how closely all the new construction will resemble the 1920s twin.

Are they going to closely copy the limestone trim, for example, style of windows, etc? I highly doubt it. Surely the new interior will be quite different. Anyway, whatever they do won't be seen much from the street. I hope they clean all the brick and old limestone but I doubt if they well. Again, it depends on what kind of insurance the organization had. :clap:

New "Pasha Cafe" sign on Art Moderne bldg. at 2912 Euclid - about a block east of Innerbelt on south side - hideous! Did they go through the proper design channels before installing that? Here's a wonderful, aesthetically cool bldg. with cream and sea green terracotta panels - the green painted blue-turquoise a while back but more recently restored (or repainted?) to original colors, and now this ghastly, oversized, ultra-bright neon gets plastered on the facade.

No, I'm not able to get over there and take a photo, but you can probably see the Pasha sign from wherever you're sitting.... :shoot:

There's apparently a really interesting article at Crain's that few people will pay to see, including me....

Web of investments intersects in MidtownDecember 12, 2011, 4:30 am

Right now, more than a half-dozen development deals are in progress or are on the horizon nearby, with a significant amount of the activity coming from companies usually focused on the greener pastures along suburban interstate highways.

Good news. Glad to hear the agora building is being looked at. That's right down from the intersection of 55th and Euclid. I always thought that had to be the most unattractive section on the whole healthline, especially the gaping hole in the railroad overpass!! I havnt been by that way in a few months but I assume it's the same. Hope to see change soon.

Richard Bowen is planning $35 mil mix-use project @ 6600 Euclid (right next to Galuccis) which would be medical office building, retail, and senior living center.

Thanks for the rundown. I had forgotten all about this proposal, which Cleveland.com first described almost two years ago: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/35_million_mixed-use_developme.html (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/35_million_mixed-use_developme.html)

That one made me a little uneasy, but then again most of the building is offices. I just hope the performance venue aspect is retained as well. But given the geriatric focus of all the housing going in, the chances of Beachland-style spillover seem remote.

Hemingway Development is marketing the redevelopment of the Agora Building (5000 Euclid) to be rebranded as "The Offices at Penn Square"

RANT ON :speech: This is the urban version of The McMansion Estates at Pine-Studded Deer Crossings Amongst the Whippoorwills. We give a cutesy name to a new incarnation of something that replaced something that came before.... Penn Square is what the intersection of East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue was named because it is also where the Pennsylvania Railroad crossed and had its principal station in Cleveland. But I doubt few Clevelanders even remember/know/care about that. :speech: RANT OFF

Hemingway Development is marketing the redevelopment of the Agora Building (5000 Euclid) to be rebranded as "The Offices at Penn Square"

RANT ON :speech: This is the urban version of The McMansion Estates at Pine-Studded Deer Crossings Amongst the Whippoorwills. We give a cutesy name to a new incarnation of something that replaced something that came before.... Penn Square is what the intersection of East 55th Street and Euclid Avenue was named because it is also where the Pennsylvania Railroad crossed and had its principal station in Cleveland. But I doubt few Clevelanders even remember/know/care about that. :speech: RANT OFF

Is there any hope of having the median along Chester improved with some actual plantings? I rarely drive down this route, but every time I do, I am amazed at how barren the median looks from CSU to the Clinic. There are probably only a handful of trees in the entire area.

It seems like a good area for midtown (or the city) to invest in actually planting something.

These images are from before the Pennsylvania Railroad line was elevated through the increasingly congested intersection and near-east side. It was amazing nexus of streets, carriages, pedestrians, streetcars, heavy freight trains and passenger trains -- including the PRR's busiest railroad station in Cleveland served by 20+ passenger trains a day during its peak. The railroad line was elevated in 1915 but the train station building seen in these picture remained at street level with a tunnel (still visible today) under the tracks and stairwells to track level.

Note this first postcard, with a view west from the railroad tracks, refers to the area as "Penn Square"....

You can see the railroad crossing watchman's tower at right, where a guard was posted by the railroad to oversee the busy intersection and manually lower gates across the streets and sidewalks to protect street traffic from getting hit by passing trains. In fact the sidewalk gate at left appears to be down, so either there is a train coming or the guard forgot about the gate....

One last view of the intersection. If you couldn't see the station is visible at right, you'd never know a busy railroad with up to 90 trains a day linking Cleveland with Hudson where it split to Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington and New York, and to Columbus, Cincinnati and St. Louis crossed here....

I read last week there's some proposal in the offing for some entity to purchase this monstrosity, but I haven't seen any more information. it was to be discussed at a meeting. What does anyone know about this? Who's interested in purchasing that former buiding and what do they propose to do with it or replace it with?

Anything going on with the property immediately to the east of Dunham where the sign announces a restoration and seeks tenants? I've seen no action whatsoever. :yap:

^A few of the midtown articles over the last year have mentioned the possibility that the developers behind the Baker Electric Bldg (Cumberland/Dick Pace I think) were thinking about acquiring and redeveloping that shell next to Dunham for more lab/tech space. I really, really hope it happens. The fact that the Baker project is 100% leased is certainly helpful.

I went by on the HealthLine quickly this a.m., but it looks like threatened Church of the Transfiguration, adjoining former Cleveland Play House property now owned by Clinic, now sports "Available" sign. Does anyone know anything about this? :clap:

Northeast Ohio projects won $11.4 million - roughly 77 percent - of the awards announced today. The largest winner is the long-dormant Victory Building in Cleveland's Midtown neighborhood, where real estate broker Scott Garson plans to turn dark space into offices for high-tech companies.

That building in particular really should be apartments and retail. The change of plans is kind of a shame, and I wish those tax credits were predicated on keeping the original residential plan in place.

Frequent browser, infrequent poster. I do have something to pass on that hopefully has not yet been discussed. I spoke to someone today who confirmed that Midtown Cleveland (the CDC) is moving into the Agora. Also in that space will be a restaurant run by the folks who operate Umami Moto (the food truck). Just an fyi...

Dick Pace believes he can renovate the seven-story brick building to house small companies. The president of Cumberland Development LLC, Pace turned the nearby Baker Electric Building into a successful business incubator. Now he aims to tackle a building that nearby property owners and investors describe as the biggest eyesore on the block.

Like suggested in the article, I don't care how much money is put into the renovation, given the scale of the area it may still be the biggest eyesore on the block, just not derelict and vacant as it is now.

I don't know if a park is a good idea like desired by some Midtowners, but a new 3-4 story building on the site might fit in better.

^Yes those evil Dunham people. A curse on them for attempting to make that area livable. But unfortunately they have had a front row seat to that devastation for a generation. I feel for those in that neighborhood who are greeted by that building everyday. Well RTA just gave them a nice Christmas present of most likely another 5 years of wait and see what happens.

Dick Pace believes he can renovate the seven-story brick building to house small companies. The president of Cumberland Development LLC, Pace turned the nearby Baker Electric Building into a successful business incubator. Now he aims to tackle a building that nearby property owners and investors describe as the biggest eyesore on the block.

Good news. I hope he can make something happen with that building. If new-construction office buildings can be built on spec in this area shortly after the worst credit crunch since the Great Depression, then Pace may have something worthwhile in this big ol' building. It's a nice location, next to a HealthLine station and a famous Italian grocery store and cafe.

He basically bought a great big concrete skeleton. Now he has to add the shell and guts.

That building in particular really should be apartments and retail. The change of plans is kind of a shame, and I wish those tax credits were predicated on keeping the original residential plan in place.

It would make a great residential building, but it seems a little isolated (in the sense of, I walk out of the front door, and where would I walk to?) Would people move in there?

Remember the blight that Quay 55 caused for years and years as a shell along the shoreway? I'm glad we had some patience and that building was allowed to become perhaps Cleveland's premier lakefront multifamily address (not saying much....)

^Yes those evil Dunham people. A curse on them for attempting to make that area livable. But unfortunately they have had a front row seat to that devastation for a generation. I feel for those in that neighborhood who are greeted by that building everyday. Well RTA just gave them a nice Christmas present of most likely another 5 years of wait and see what happens.

Booo, I'm not demonizing the Dunham folks. Good for them for sticking it out all these tough decades. I just don't want to see their pastoral vision for our premiere urban corridor expand any more, and certainly not at the expense of a sizable redevelopment opportunity.

What's the point of making the area liveable when development there is overwhelmingly non-residential? Besides, Cleveland doesn't need any more meadows. It really doesn't. Unfortunately for the Dunham Tavern, it's become a raisin in the mayonnaise. It represents a long lost past for Euclid Avenue that our current leaders chose not to move forward with.

My issue with a structure such as 6611 which has been a neighborhood eyesore for over a generation lies in my belief that its fate should not be determined by those who look at it from afar. Its future should be determined by those that interact with that space on a daily basis. Those who have invested their time and money in that neighborhood. That is what urban planning is to me. Decisions made by those who have a vested interest in their corner of the world. Because your vision may be different from theirs. And btw there is a good amount of residential in that area, especially behind the building across Chester and across Hough. And there is a huge opportunity for future residential development. In my view there may be a very strong possibility that those involved may appreciate a little more green space or an expansion of the Dunham. Give them a vote in its future. And as I have said about 6611 in the past , if that building was sitting at the end of Joe Calabrese's street it would have been demoed along time ago.

And MH if you want to move this convo over to the Midtown thread, it might fit better

My issue with a structure such as 6611 which has been a neighborhood eyesore for over a generation lies in my belief that its fate should not be determined by those who look at it from afar. Its future should be determined by those that interact with that space on a daily basis. Those who have invested their time and money in that neighborhood. That is what urban planning is to me. Decisions made by those who have a vested interest in their corner of the world. Because your vision may be different from theirs. And btw there is a good amount of residential in that area, especially behind the building across Chester and across Hough. And there is a huge opportunity for future residential development. In my view there may be a very strong possibility that those involved may appreciate a little more green space or an expansion of the Dunham. Give them a vote in its future. And as I have said about 6611 in the past , if that building was sitting at the end of Joe Calabrese's street it would have been demoed along time ago.

And MH if you want to move this convo over to the Midtown thread, it might fit better

freethink, I understand your general point but the fate of this building is[i/] being determined by neighborhood stakeholders: RTA and Dick Pace, both of whom have made substantial investments in the area that likely exceed that made by Dunham. This isn't a neighborhood planning exercise, this is a decision about a specific site with real $ implications for RTA and the city. I know (from the horse's mouth) that RTA has been more than happy to entertain offers from Dunham over the past few years, but they haven't been as attractive for one reason or another.

While it's certainly important to talk to neighborhood stakeholders, it's also important to look at the larger picture. Midtown has a master plan for Euclid, and a business incubator fits that plan. I would guess that stakeholders in Midtown as a whole would support that use, and WHRS would be in the minority if they oppose it. Their opinion should certainly be taken into account, but at the risk of NIMBYism stymieing development along the entire corridor, theirs shouldn't be the only voice we listen to.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it. Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together. It's a nice tall building so it brings some important density to the street. Great access to the HealthLine and Gallucci's. And as Pace said, it should have great views of downtown, making it desirable office space. Glad it's not becoming yet another empty lot on Euclid.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it. Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it. Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.

While I usually would abhor the idea of putting new facades on historic structures (as happened to many buildings downtown and now many of them are being taken off), since this building has lost its facade already, this might just be the change the building needs. I would love to see someone do a mockup of that to see how it would look.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it. Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.

While I usually would abhor the idea of putting new facades on historic structures (as happened to many buildings downtown and now many of them are being taken off), since this building has lost its facade already, this might just be the change the building needs. I would love to see someone do a mockup of that to see how it would look.

However, those 70's facades are vastly different then the facades of today. I thinking jborger is hoping they put something on that blends the original building with a new addition or highlights things that need to be demo'd to modernize the building while keeping the historic portions.

Developers pulling their hair out trying to decide what to do with an intersection that includes a large performance venue... it's like no such opportunity has ever occurred in this city or any other. Oh well, forget logic... let's focus on how we can ram a biotech theme into a historic rock venue located in a gritty area of the world capitol of rock music.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A Cleveland rock icon has changed hands, in a deal that promises to preserve the struggling Agora Theatre and office complex on Euclid Avenue.Late last month, the LoConti family quietly donated the Agora complex to MidTown Cleveland Inc., a neighborhood nonprofit that plans to move its offices there.

^^What's the complaint? It sounds like there are already offices in the complex and the theater is being retained. The owner donated the complex to the local development corporation and it's going to be renovated. What would you have them do?

Change the zoning overlay in that area and advance plans that have more to do with the theater than with the clinic. Model it after other urban areas that feature large historic performance venues. This would almost certainly entail a greater focus on residential and retail than the rest of the corridor has gotten. The east end of the corridor features hospitals, while this end features theaters (Masonic too). Work with what's there. Drop the biotech focus west of 55th, go for an entertainment-themed neighborhood instead. Market it to CSU students, YP's, and hipsters.

Change the zoning overlay in that area and advance plans that have more to do with the theater than with the clinic. Model it after other urban areas that feature large historic performance venues. This would almost certainly entail a greater focus on residential and retail than the rest of the corridor has gotten. The east end of the corridor features hospitals, while this end features theaters (Masonic too). Work with what's there. Drop the biotech focus west of 55th, go for an entertainment-themed neighborhood instead.

I love that idea, but it's not going to happen. Midtown is clearly the "Health-Tech" neighborhood. Period. That's what the developers can get money for. That's where the demand is. That's the focus of the CDC. It is what it is. Cleveland does need an entertainment themed neighborhood, but its not going to happen in Midtown. Midtown is going to be a Health-Tech focused, suburban style office park neighborhood. That's just the way it goes.

Not talking about the complex... talking about the area around it, which the article referenced. Planners/developers aren't sure what to do with it. I'm suggesting that plenty of examples already exist. This wouldn't be the first time redevelopment took place around a large historic performance venue. But it may be the first time that using it to anchor an entertainment district was seemingly off the table. Of course the offices need to be filled with officey stuff, inlcuding biotech. But that shouldn't be the overarching theme for redeveloping this area. It's physically closer to a college and another theater than it is to any hospital. Using the Agora's stage for "tech events" should be way, way, way down the list of priorities.

I love that idea, but it's not going to happen. Midtown is clearly the "Health-Tech" neighborhood. Period. That's what the developers can get money for. That's where the demand is. That's the focus of the CDC. It is what it is. Cleveland does need an entertainment themed neighborhood, but its not going to happen in Midtown. Midtown is going to be a Health-Tech focused, suburban style office park neighborhood. That's just the way it goes.

I'm glad you like the idea. I personally think it's psycho for a CDC to become so wedded to one concept that they squander every non-conforming asset they're handed. Hard to believe there's a lack of demand for entertainment districts near universities. This seems more like bad planning, plain and simple. One word answer for everything-- BIOTECH! No nuance, no critical thinking, no sense of context. I think LoConti's heart is and has always been in the right place, I just wish he had donated the property to someone with clearer vision. That, or I wish Midtown Inc had clearer vision.

^I'm pretty sure someone reported last year that LoConti tried to donate the property to CSU or to someone else with a primary interest in the venue. Quite understandably, given CSU's relationship and investment in Playhouse Square (i.e., an existing entertainment-based neighborhood immediately adjacent to CSU), I guess the offer went nowhere. 327, I like your vision, I just don't see any juice there. LoConti's been really clear how hard it is for the venue to compete these days. But the rental space in the Agora Building is going to be offered at $8/sf ($8!!!) so If anyone thinks there really is money for a different vision, there is plenty of room to outbid the biotech tenants in that area.

If anyone thinks there really is money for a different vision, there is plenty of room to outbid the biotech tenants in that area.

Not if the CDC surrounds it with suburban warehouses as fast as they can. This shouldn't be about immediate cash availability, it should be about what's best for the future of the city. The public spent a fortune on that transit line... immediate profits for suburban warehouse builders should not be the end-all be-all concern here. But it appears that suburban warehouse builders are essentially in charge of planning out Cleveland's main street. That's not ideal. Public-private partnerships should be partnerships, with the public's interests considered and protected. The public's interests are usually more long-term than those of construction companies.

Nothing is permanent. Zoning can't forbid economically viable use. If there were competing proposals, even something speculative like Stark's former WHD plans, I might be more receptive to your continuing complaints about MidTown. But there are not. If I am wrong, show me the proposal...... judt one.

Your right on with your thinking 327. For what its worth they are considering creative industry type uses for the building as well and I think that would be a good fit and mesh well with the current recording company that is there (complementary uses). But yeah this side of 55th certainly shouldnt automatically be lumped into the same single mind use that has become the thinking east of 55th.

BTW, I wonder what became of Steve Popovich, Cleveland International Records Office that was in there, since is death this past year. When I was there I didnt get the feeling that there were any other people working with him. He mentioned his son, but I dont think he lived in the area.

Hts121, I understand your point... but if the city, through a CDC, put all its weight behind plans to build a suburban industrial park in the WHD, how many Stark-type proposals do you think we'd see? Midtown planning hasn't been an open issue for almost 10 years. It isnt surprising to me that the amount of support this all-biotech plan has gotten would dissuade competing proposals to the extent that none would see the light of day. Substantial headwinds are in place, not at the market or demand level, but at the government level. This was all a done deal before the transit project even broke ground. Not similar in that sense to WHD.

Agreed to an extent and I don't want you to think that I wouldn't be ecstaticif you Utopian MidTown became a reality. But you also forget that the City incentivized residential development in MidTown for years, going back to the early 1990s. That's how we have the (relatively) new build we have there now. Those efforts were met with luke warm success, if that, and did not lead to any significant spin-off development that was hoped for. 15 years later, we still have new residential surrounded by delapidated housing. I think the City leaders have resolved that vibrant mixed use communities don't just pop out of the ground, and this is especially true in Cleveland's core. Rather, they evolve over time to meet market demands of neighborhoods that, for one reason or another, have some momentum already built up. I am not trying to dash your dreams, but instead just recommending some patience. Considering the state of MidTown whn the corridor started, I don't see how anyone could expect anything more than slow and steady progress. Nothing that is being built there now cannot be replaced if market demands change

I doubt any of us have widely variant dreams for Midtown. I just tend to believe that adding white collar/hi education employment to Midtown makes it a more viable location for market rate housing down the line. And 327, if it makes you happier, you could think of this news about the Agora in glass half-full terms: rental income from the office space will cross subsidize survival of the performance venue. Not sure what it's future would have been otherwise. Demolition? Fly by night Church?

All I can say is that vibrant mixed use communities don't tend to sprout within suburban industrial parks either. It's easier to build neighborhoods on vacant lots than it is to build them on top of brand new warehouses. The state of Midtown when the corridor started is that planning along the corridor was largely already complete, and I think that was a mistake. One would think that the healthline project might have opened possibilities that weren't available in the 90s. But the expedient planning of this industrial park didn't leave much opening for any of them. If there was a time for patience, maybe that was during the planning phase.

And yes, there is certianly a glass half full aspect to the Agora transfer. But it also gives us a chance to (re)consider what might be done in that vicinity. I think that's a conversation the community needs to have.

I'm sure the Agora can coexist in the neighborhood with offices since there are not all that many events there. Hank Loconti will continue to book events there, but the competition with House of Blues and other venues will continue (so far their has been no mention of a casino venue THANK HEAVENS!). So let's hope Midtown can creatively subsidize the rennovation and fill the schedule with non-traditional events. If office developments spring up they should help support some dining establishments during the day, and perhaps those same eateries could open on event nights.

I doubt any of us have widely variant dreams for Midtown. I just tend to believe that adding white collar/hi education employment to Midtown makes it a more viable location for market rate housing down the line.

It's easier to build neighborhoods on vacant lots than it is to build them on top of brand new warehouses.

How many brand new warehouses are there in MidTown. It is a pretty extensive tract of land and is still has PLENTY of vacant lots. Besides, what is the last neighborhood of any value any developer built here (or anywhere) on top of empty lots surrounded by empty lots? Where is the precedent?

Cleveland has a ton of neighborhoods and all should not be the same. I don't have a problem with Midtown being the city's "suburban business park" district. I believe that every neighborhood in the city should have its own characteristics. I think Midtown's current path makes us competitive with the suburbs in this area. I'm okay with that. We have plenty of neighborhoods in the city that could use the types of development that we all love. But if Midtown is going to be the "suburban Downtown" of the city, let it. Fine with me. As long as it works, I'm okay with that. We need at least one neighborhood that can offer surburban style business developments so that we stay competitive. I'm just glad to see that the Agora will remain open, and I also hope that they leave the sign on 24/7 dammit! :lol:

^^Yeah, but I'm the one who said "hi education," so you might want to distance yourself.

I don't really get the new warehouse thing either. 327, are you referring to something specific? I think there were some additions to the Pierre's Ice Cream and adjacent sugar facility, but otherwise, the only new non-residential construction thus far is the midtown tech park, no? It's not much to look at, but it's not a warehouse and should have decent worker density. I don't think any warehouses are in planning stages either. Most of the projects being planned now are rehabs of existing zero setback buildings that have languished vacant for years or even decades. Anything that fills that hulking thing on Carnegie is great for the neighborhood, IMHO, and only increases the probability of new housing someday.

Per the official CDC plan, additional structures like the Tech Park are desired. It's not functionally a warehouse but it looks like a modern one and its effect on the street is similar to one. I'm not sure worker density means a whole lot. If it did, the Clinic's surroundings would look much different. Same goes for Third Federal. These examples demonstrate that workers do not equate to feet on the street or money spent nearby. Workers don't even equate to nearby residential demand, although it doesn't hurt.

I think inlovewithCLE makes a great point about the city competing with its suburbs for jobs, and it needs whatever modern buildings are necessary to that end. But needing them in general doesn't mean we need them on Euclid Avenue. When it comes to new residents, Cleveland isn't really competing with Beachwood so much as it's competing with Milwaukee and Boston and so forth. Cleveland cannot offer a competitive suburban living experience. Ever. Its only hope is to compete as a major city, with other major cities, for residents who desire to live in such an environment. Having jobs for them is a big help, sure. But is it necessary to put those jobs right on Main Street, when our competitors are able to offer similar workplaces AND a Main Street people might want to visit? Can we afford to have a pedestrian dead-zone of this length right through the middle of town?

But is it necessary to put those jobs right on Main Street, when our competitors are able to offer similar workplaces AND a Main Street people might want to visit? Can we afford to have a pedestrian dead-zone of this length right through the middle of town?

Not to mention how asinine it is to promote suburban style development right along the new BRT.

^I'm sure we all agree that the city and Midtown should be promoting quality design best they can. As far as I know, there are no proposals or planning guidelines calling for single story buildings with big setbacks or street-side surface parking. By "suburban warehouse" I think 327 just means office and lab space without [currently unmarketable] retail space built into the ground floor.

327, you think channeling deep public subsidy into new housing that's spatially disconnected from our existing activity centers would be an effective way to offer a lifestyle product competitive with other cities? Personally, for the near and medium term, I think UC, Ohio City, Downtown and Tremont (etc.) are far better prospects for providing competitive urban residential choices, especially if there are good job opportunities in easy transit, biking and driving distance. I could be wrong, but I'd bet that most people here would prefer to live downtown or UC with a HealthLine commute to East 55th and Euclid rather than in a new four story residential building next to the Agora. And at the same time, Midtown seems to offer a great opportunity to seed a competitive cluster of businesses, which, given the theory behind industry clusters, can't just be "put" anywhere.

I think fundamentally we have very different models of urban development in our heads. I guess it's pessimistic of me, but my model contemplates a pretty finite population of yuppies and students interesting in Cleveland's urban living at the moment and a finite number of subsidy dollars. Based on that, I have a strong preference for trying to build critical mass by focusing on areas that already have some action (e.g., downtown and UC for housing, Midtown for tech) so we can generate some actual market demand to leverage . I think that's the only realistic way of really offering a lifestyle product competitive with other cities, which, assuming people like urban retail, we're struggling to do with even in our best neighborhoods, let alone barren frontiers. I also think building critical mass will grow this population faster than spreading our subsidy and finite yuppie population over a wider geographic area. If I'm way off, I'm pretty sure the zoning permits residential development in much of midtown.

So yeah, I think it would be swell to have Midtown emerge as a vital mixed use neighborhood, and I hope it does, but given the limits of our market, I think developing a growing employment cluster well served by transit, between two areas already showing promising residential growth, should be a higher priority at the moment.

Correct me if I'm wrong Strap, but it sounds like you're suggesting that Downtown and Uptown be viewed as bedroom communities for Midtown. I think that approach ignores the essential nature of each piece and how they fit together. And University Circle has a very finite capacity for adding anything, particularly with the height restrictions that always seem to emerge there.

The other hot neighborhoods you mention aren't exactly brimming with open land. They're popular because they're relatively intact so a bit of rehab was all they needed. Those neighborhoods will continue to gentrify, but that may reduce their overall populations. It will certainly moderate any gains from infill. The recent census indicates that this pattern isn't conducive to growth. Lots of housing units were added in the past decade, yet the city's population not only shrank but got older. At some point we have to shift into the next gear.

I've always found your tag quote about the grapes to be intriguing and perceptive, and I think it points out Cleveland's fundamental problem. Since 1932 many of the grapes have shriveled, and those remaining are scattered throughout far too much vine. We can't be grapes anymore. Frankly that never worked... it set the table for the collapse of the 60s. My grape, your grape, red grape, green grape. The ties that bind stopped binding and everything fell apart.

Instead, we need to view the city as an integrated whole. Each part is significant not only unto itself but in relation to those around it, in relation to the core, and in relation to the entirety. That means downtown needs to be downtown, to serve all the purposes that a downtown is meant to serve and has always served in functional cities. It can't just be a neighborhood.

Similarly, Main Street has to be Main Street, including everything denoted by that concept. It can't just be a workplace, even if it's THE workplace. It needs to form a living connective tissue between downtown and uptown. To accomplish that, it needs to be welcoming and inviting. It can't be cold, impersonal, institutional. It can't be lined with places that obviously require an ID card to get in. It can't just be for those who happen to have jobs there. It has to be for everyone.

Without a functional downtown and a functional main street, there's a low ceiling on what we can accomplish by focusing on individual nuggets here and there. Something has to tie them together into one great city. That's what downtowns and main streets are for.

Cleveland has a ton of neighborhoods and all should not be the same. I don't have a problem with Midtown being the city's "suburban business park" district. I believe that every neighborhood in the city should have its own characteristics. I think Midtown's current path makes us competitive with the suburbs in this area. I'm okay with that. We have plenty of neighborhoods in the city that could use the types of development that we all love. But if Midtown is going to be the "suburban Downtown" of the city, let it. Fine with me. As long as it works, I'm okay with that. We need at least one neighborhood that can offer surburban style business developments so that we stay competitive. I'm just glad to see that the Agora will remain open, and I also hope that they leave the sign on 24/7 dammit! :lol:

We do already have at 2 suburban parks comprised solely of light industrial and business uses that you describe: Hinckley Parkway http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16806035/Hinckley-Industrial-Parkway-Schaaf-Road-Cleveland-OH/ (http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16806035/Hinckley-Industrial-Parkway-Schaaf-Road-Cleveland-OH/) and Johnson Parkway (http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16281538/Johnston-Parkway-Garfield-Heights-OH/ (http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16281538/Johnston-Parkway-Garfield-Heights-OH/) - although that building is in garfield heights, north of NEO parkway in the map is Cleveland). I live near the Hinckley Parkway, and anecdotally, there's several existing properties there for sale with that vacant land in the link [FWIW, that land has been for sale for 15+ years, next to a hillside]. (I'll concede that unfortunately, developers and prospective tenants may or may not want the new construction that Euclid Ave provides.)

Regardless of that, the BRT was designed to compliment Euclid Ave's density with multiple mixed-use areas.

Straphanger, there's at least one new devel there on Euclid that has surface parking (behind the building) I recall; although I have to run now to the city planning commish meeting.

^I'm going to guess that anything built or redeveloped in midtown in the foreseeable future (other than the Clinic) is going to have surface parking, whether it's residential or commercial. Welcome to $8/sf, or $10 or $12 or whatever. I was pointing out that nothing being built or planned is really a "suburban warehouse" as you might find in those traditional suburban industrial parks, so it's a little frustrating hearing that over and over. Certainly much room for better design, however.

327, I just think it comes down our different conceptual models of city. I think the pie needs to grow bigger before it's going to sustainably spread over more linear miles of Euclid. Maybe it never will. In any case, I put much less stock than you in the powers of master plans to dictate what's going to go where. If market rate residential developers want to attack midtown, and I'm sure some will at some point, the city will listen and answer with subsidies. There are no big suburban warehouses scaring residential developers away, and no plans for noxious industrial uses. All the vacant land isn't going to disappear in the next 5 or even 10 years.

And really, I'm not sure I understand the alternative. What specifically are you suggesting? That the city leans on the Locontis totell Midtown to take a hike, letting the Agora fall into tax foreclosure while we hope a decently capitalized rock and roll neighborhood proposal emerges before the building is too far gone? Have RTA take a bigger loss (and cut some bus routes) by demolishing its empty shell and selling the land to Dunham? Maybe shift some subsidy away from a future phase of Uptown to instead put 50 residential units in that empty shell? Withhold grant money from Hemmingway so that hulking thing at Carnegie and 55th can continue to disintegrate? Maybe you just want the muckety mucks to stop promoting Midtown as a tech destination to slow the "rapid" pace of redevelopment there, I don't know. I just don't see how any of that promotes anyone's vision of Midtown unless you are very confident that a new urban residential boom the likes we haven't had in 70+ years is right around the corner. I grant you that filling midtown with a tech cluster does not guaranty a vital neighborhood there, but I just don't see any viable alternative that gets us closer (let alone all the benefits that a tech cluster there has for the city's other areas).

Strap, I've already said what I'd do differently. It's simple-- develop a plan that's better suited for Euclid Avenue's future, rather than its unfortunate present. Would that change anything? Perhaps nothing at all. But at least at that point we're trying. Makes no sense to spend so much on the Corridor project then say "Awww, screw it. Can't build nothin good here. Let's just throw up low rent floorspace in bulk."

I haven't said that any of the rehabs shouldn't proceed. The biggest one's not even on Euclid and has little to do with my Main Street argument. I did say that the Victory Building rehab should not be strictly office space. I even said that the subsidies it's receiving should be premised on the project including residential, since that would better leverage the massive public investment adjacent to it. That way the state wouldn't be spending quite so much on a development that contributes nothing to street life after 5pm. Also if we're going to promote some road as a tech center, might I suggest Chester as opposed to Euclid. It's a block away, it's auto-oriented... it's not Main Street and it didn't just receive a huge transit investment that promised density and mixed use. All I'm really suggesting is a unified plan.

To me that makes 9x more sense than what's being done. If that makes me crazy, then go ahead and lock me away in a mental hospital right on Main Street. Wait... on second thought, don't build it there.

Fair enough. You would amend the the master plan and condition some of the grant to the Victor building on including a residential component. I don't think you're crazy at all, I just don't think your approach is going to get you a thriving mixed use neighborhood any faster. And conditioning grants like that does risk stifling some of the nascent tech corridor development, which at this point mostly consists of rehabbing old buildings (of which there are literally none on Chester east of 55th).

In any case, I think Hts is right, nothing is being crowded out here at all. The market will evolve and developers will come up with new ideas as it does. You think the giant Casino garage was in Gateway's master plan? I think the best thing we can do is enforce some basic design guidelines, which the zoning already encompasses. I would have been really psyched if the Midtown Tech Park or whatever it's called had at least one little coffee shop opening onto Euclid to break up that bland facade, but really, that thing is not scaring away any residential development. I think you might be worrying too much about some kind of hypothetical "suburban warehouse" development that seems unlikely every to be proposed.

By the way, 327, I don't know if it would make you feel better, but there are at least some urban tech areas evolving into very decent mixed use areas. The uses aren't remotely incompatible.

We all agree that the public has little control over what private developers do. My suggestions are targeted at public entities. As to how much control CDC's have over city planning and development funds spent in their areas, who really knows. But I believe it to be considerable. And I steadfastly believe that pursuing a mixed use neighborhood would create one faster than would pursuing a different goal would.

Does it mean nothing that the current strategy is not what we were sold in conjunction with the BRT plan? Are we really going to equate everything with everything else? Are we really working toward a lively mixed-use neighborhood by building private single-use workplaces? Compatible? Perhaps, in some ways. Equivalent? Interchangable? Not at all.

But by not building said storefront, all future possibility of it on that site is eliminated. During the life of the Geis building anyway.

Again, the only expenditures I'm concerned about here are those of the public. It seems that this CDC is actively pursuing, with public funds, a "vision" quite different than the "vision" the public was being sold when it funded the adjacent BRT project.

I think you should build 'said storefront'. Hell, build 10 of them in the Euclid/55th area. Someone is obviously missing out on a very lucrative venture. Banks will jump at the chance to finance you in your edeavors, I'm sure.

I think you should build 'said storefront'. Hell, build 10 of them in the Euclid/55th area. Someone is obviously missing out on a very lucrative venture. Banks will jump at the chance to finance you in your edeavors, I'm sure.

That's just silly. My whole point is that when this much public money is involved, immediate profitability ceases to be the only issue. That's one of the reasons the public invests in otherwise private development, to steer things toward a better long term plan that accounts for interests beyond those of each individual developer. You consistently claim that developers not only answer to no one but somehow have a right to use public funds and assets, keep all the profits, and cede not an ounce of planning control to the public. I would characterize that position as somewhere between "crony capitalism" and anarchy... which I didn't think was conceptually possible until I read it here.

I have? You would have to quote where I said that. The most I have ever said is that zoning codes can't deprive private owners of PRESENT economically viable use of the land. The codes, regulations, whatever can't tell private landowners that they must wait 30 years for some purely speculative long term plan of the City to come to fruition. I also might have said that it is not sound policy on the part of any City to try to manufacture density when the market of that particular area doesn't demand it. You used the grape vine analogy which is kind of perfect for Midtown. I would rather grow the cluster of grapes from each end until they meet in the middle. And I don't want the sole focus on Euclid Ave. I don't see the corridor as a 100 ft wide, 3.5 mile strip ripe for development. I'm looking bigger picture here. You apparently want to place each grape sporadically along a single vine until the vine eventually fills up. Same end goal, different approaches. Each one would take time. I just think my strategy is not only more beneficial in the short term, and is also a better strategy to nurture the desired end result.

Question for you guys: did the senior housing proposed for the south side of Euclid Ave b/w 73rd and 74th ever get built?

Similarly, Emerald Alliance V, the supportive housing at Euclid and 75th must be pretty close to wrapped up now, no? What do people think of the finished [more or less] product?

But I just noticed that googlemaps seems to have finally added thr 45 degree view to Cleveland, with aerial photos that must be from this past summer!http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cleveland,+OH&hl=en&ll=41.504629,-81.635102&spn=0.001991,0.00327&sll=41.503736,-81.637656&sspn=0.001991,0.00327&oq=Cleve&vpsrc=6&t=w&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&z=19 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cleveland,+OH&hl=en&ll=41.504629,-81.635102&spn=0.001991,0.00327&sll=41.503736,-81.637656&sspn=0.001991,0.00327&oq=Cleve&vpsrc=6&t=w&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&z=19)

Anyway, what do people think of these two buildings now that they are close to finished?

Regarding the photo just posted, does anyone know the story regarding the former mansion with large frontal addition to the bottom left? I recall when construction began - probably at least ten years ago. Then it was started again but I don't think anything has happened in the past few years. Much potential. Who owns and what happened?

Second, I've heard conflicting stories - that a developer is or has purchased the monstrosity to the west of Dunham Tavern, to totally retrofit it and make it presentable, and also Dunham Tavern is or has raised the funds to purchase and demolish it. Are either of these scenarios quite certain?

^I think the latest news about the shell next to Dunham was in this Cleveland.com article from a couple weeks ago, discussed on page 23 of this thread: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/post_94.html. (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/post_94.html.) In short, RTA agreed to sell the building to Cumberland (the group that converted the Baker Electric bldg) for $500k, but the Dunham folks are still interested if that deal falls through. It's not clear when the sale to Cumberland was supposed to close.

I've always wondered about that former mansion with the tacked on facade that seemed to be perpetually under construction for years.

The article seemed pretty clear that Cumberland had purchased it (mentioned sale had been approved by the RTA Board) for $500,000.00. I find it hard to believe that Dunham has that kind of $$$ to spare (plus the substantial cost for demolition which I would imagine would run 7 figures).

The article seemed pretty clear that Cumberland had purchased it (mentioned sale had been approved by the RTA Board) for $500,000.00. I find it hard to believe that Dunham has that kind of $$$ to spare (plus the substantial cost for demolition which I would imagine would run 7 figures).

When I bought my house, at what we thought was a good price, the bank came back and told us it wasn't worth near that much and would only give us a loan of a far lower amount. So we had to renegotiate with the seller. Maybe something similar happened here. Cumberland and RTA thought they had a deal, but Cumberland's financing fell through. Maybe Cumberland couldn't raise enough money to do a rehab. So RTA is selling it to Dunham, probably for a lot less than $500,000.

Who knows. A lot of "done deals" fall apart before the papers get signed.

That's more what I'm thinking. Could be a wealthy benefactor or benefactors of Dunham, too. As an aside, the same thing happend with us with our house in 1985. We had a crummy looking neighbor and, after the house was listed for months and we had changed realtors and finally a buyer came along, the bank said it was worth somewhat less and I was mad! Of course we were very anxious and the experienced realtor urged us to accept the lower amount and comply with the deal.

You're referring to the corner just beyond Dunham Tavern? That's renovation of a building so I wouldn't associate it with "moving dirt around" at this stage. I don't think there are any more "pictures" around.

Ya...corner of E 69 and Euclid...It looked like the building was just being renovated in the "pic" of it posted at the site, but they definitely dug into the grass on the site. I'll pay more attention this weekend when I'm out that way:)

Jerry seems to have confirmed today in the RTA thread that Cumberland bought the building.

He just confirmed that RTA's board authorized RTA to enter into the purchase and sale contract. Assuming the parties did go to contract, closing is probably a few weeks away, or even several weeks if Cumberland negotiated for an extended due diligence period for environmental review. There's no sign it's off track, but I don't think it's quite done yet.

From cable TV shows to busy downtown streets, food trucks are all the rage these days. Yet short of firing up a Winnebago or launching a fleet of food trucks, owners' growth plans are limited by size. "It's such a small space, everything has to be done more frequently," complains Jae Stulock of Umami Moto, which dishes out Asian fusion cuisine to hungry lunch crowds and late night revelers everywhere.

Stulock's solution? First, he found an unused kitchen in the Agora Theatre that could be used for all-important prep work. Once that was secured, he decided to launch a restaurant to complement his fast-moving food truck business.

HISTORIC CLEVELAND AGORA TO BE REJUVENATEDCLEVELAND (Jan. 4, 2012) – Once considered one of the nation’s top music venues, the Agora Theatre will soon be the major cornerstone of revitalization efforts in Cleveland’s MidTown neighborhood thanks to a generous donation from the LoConti family...

1/9/2012 - Planning Study underway for E. 55th St. & Euclid Ave. intersectionMidTown Cleveland, Inc. is undertaking a planning study for the area surrounding the East 55th and Euclid intersection and we need your input. We ask that you click the link below and please take a few minutes to complete the survey. Your answers will help determine future improvements to our neighborhood!

1/9/2012 - Planning Study underway for E. 55th St. & Euclid Ave. intersectionMidTown Cleveland, Inc. is undertaking a planning study for the area surrounding the East 55th and Euclid intersection and we need your input. We ask that you click the link below and please take a few minutes to complete the survey. Your answers will help determine future improvements to our neighborhood!

1/9/2012 - Planning Study underway for E. 55th St. & Euclid Ave. intersectionMidTown Cleveland, Inc. is undertaking a planning study for the area surrounding the East 55th and Euclid intersection and we need your input. We ask that you click the link below and please take a few minutes to complete the survey. Your answers will help determine future improvements to our neighborhood!

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The city of Cleveland has its first potential buyer for land that state officials rejected last year for a regional psychiatric hospital project.

Superior Technology Partners LLC, based in Columbus, hopes to buy 2.25 acres of the nearly 14-acre site and build a data center there.

Cleveland City Council will consider legislation today to give the company an option on land along Chester Avenue between East 61st and East 63rd streets.

Now Superior Technology Partners could buy a slice of the property and build a $35 million to $40 million facility, which might comprise 80,000 square feet and create 40 "high-paying jobs," said Tracey Nichols, the city's economic development director.

Obviously good job news, and I of course would rather see a building on that windswept land which is just collecting liter at this time. Still, why is it that I am picturing a one story bunker surrounded by a parking lot?

Great to hear, but the end of the story really lays it down on how this company is limited in their operations: they have only existed for 1 year and have not yet built anything, anywhere yet, even though they "plan to" build in multiple second tier cities. Cleveland.com has made it their headline story. Generalized proposals shouldn't be headline news. I work in MidTown and have seen one too many deals fall through, and most have been more finalized than this. Nonetheless, it's great to hear of the possibility of a new business moving in.

"The year-old company, run by executives with experience in the data-center business, aims to own and run facilities in secondary, Midwestern cities. Kowal said Superior Technology Partners is focused on markets that need more data centers, as companies look to outsource server storage, credit-card processing and other services.

The company has yet to open a data center but is pursuing several opportunities, including new construction, acquisitions of existing buildings and joint ventures. The timeline for the Cleveland project is unclear."

^KJP was just responding to my relief that this project isn't proposed for Euclid.

^^Not if you get a variance. Which, I'm guessing, is how Geis was able to build only two stories for the Midtown Tech Park.

From a quick read, the MMUD1 district (which covers Euclid from 55th to 79th) has a 10 foot max setback from the public ROW, requires buildings to be at least 3 stories high and occupy at least 80% of the street frontage, and requires residential buildings to devote 60% of ground floor to retail space or neighborhood amenities, like day care. And actually, without a variance, it's not even clear a data center would be permitted on this part of Euclid, unless it's considered "Professional or administrative office." The Chester frontage is covered by more permissive regulations.

Doesn't the Euclid Corridor TOD zoning overlay require this to be "on the sidewalk" with first-floor mixed uses?

No, it does not. The page in the plan that lists actual zones (I gave page cites somewhere upthread) calls for straight industrial/commercial along most of Euclid, with mixed-use down toward E71st-E79th st (only). This zoning conflicts a bit with the "MMUD" stuff. The Geis structure pretty much fits the zoning plan.

^I think you're conflating the zoning with the master plan. The zoning expressly prohibits industrial development along Euclid between East 40th and East 79th. It permits residential/retail mixed use buildings and commercial buildings at least 3 stories high and with setbacks between zero and 10 feet from the ROW. Limited industrial is allowed on the southern side of Chester west of 63rd, but only in, roughly, the northern half of the blocks b/w Euclid and Chester.

The MMUD requirements are summarized in this little doc: http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MTC%20master%20plan-zoning%20summaries.pdf (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MTC%20master%20plan-zoning%20summaries.pdf)You can download the actual code here: http://www.landuse.law.pace.edu/SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=1528 (http://www.landuse.law.pace.edu/SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=1528)

Yes, I'm referring to the zoning given in that same midtown.org doc. My understanding is that as an "overlay" it was meant to supersede the previous actual code. Recent developments suggest that it has, whether directly or through a pattern of variances. It specifies mostly industrial/commercial from 55th to 71st. With a couple of odd and tiny exceptions, residential and mixed-use are limited to the area bordering CCF. We went through this in detail a few months ago... I guess it's worth figuring out which zoning plan actually applies there now, since they seem pretty radically different from each other.

^I'm trying to tell you that your "understanding" is incorrect. As far as I can tell, there is no actual "overlay;" The underlying zoning districts are the midtown mixed use districts 1 through 4 (MMUD1 - MMUD4). The MMUD1 district covers both sides of Euclid Ave from East 40th to East 79th, permits mixed residential/retail and office/lab buildings throughout (with the requirements I described above) and prohibits industrial throughout. I agree with you that variances can end up gutting that code to some extent (like the Geiss project).

But the pretty pictures Midtown Inc draws in its master plan, the ones you are referring to, have zero impact on the zoning code or otherwise have any force of law.

Not certain I'm reading you correctly... are you saying the MMUD material in the document does have meaning, but the plot-by-plot zoning does not? The MMUD material seems to paint in broad strokes and is worded in aspirational terms. I'm not sure why they would go to the bother of producing all those meticulous zoning diagrams if the four MMUD's alone were sufficient to comprise "underlying zoning districts."

Either Midtown Inc had the authority to override the previous zoning there or they didn't, I'm not sure either way, but in any event I doubt they would have "zoned" E40th to E79th as one giant chunk.

Not certain I'm reading you correctly... are you saying the MMUD material in the document does have meaning, but the plot-by-plot zoning does not? The MMUD material seems to paint in broad strokes and is worded in aspirational terms. I'm not sure why they would go to the bother of producing all those meticulous zoning diagrams if the four MMUD's alone were sufficient to comprise "underlying zoning districts."

Either Midtown Inc had the authority to override the previous zoning there or they didn't, I'm not sure either way, but in any event I doubt they would have "zoned" E40th to E79th as one giant chunk.

EDIT: X already re-posted the full MUDD code, but I had already typed out this long boring email so...

The MMUD stuff in second doc I linked to is the actual code and has legal authority: http://www.landuse.law.pace.edu/SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=1528 (http://www.landuse.law.pace.edu/SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=1528) The boundaries of the four different MMUD zones, each of which covers dozens/hundreds of parcels, is shown on page 3 of the Midtown doc (though it's not easy to see clearly) or is available on the city's GIS web site. You can put "zoned" in quotes or doubt it, but as far as I can tell, that is the only zoning.

The MMUD stuff in the Midtown doc (on page 4) is just a very brief summary of what the MMUD districts allow to save people the trouble of reading the actual code, and the rest of the doc and the other master planning work by Midtown is just aspirational vision stuff, not zoning. I'm not sure what you mean by "ploty-by-plot zoning" diagrams, but if you're referring to things like page 45 of the Midtown master plan pdf (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MidTown%20Master%20Plan%202005%20Update.pdf (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MidTown%20Master%20Plan%202005%20Update.pdf)), then (1) it s not a "zoning" diagram so shouldn't be called that :), and (2) has no legal authority at all, unless there's some vague design review guideline somewhere that mentions consistency with a master plan or something general like that, in which case, the legal authority is nebulous and second order at best. But if you were thinking that those land use diagrams and master plans were legally binding land use restrictions themselves, I now understand better your angst about this area. You'll be delighted to know they are not.

Even so, the master plan stuff isn't totally meaningless, because, in theory, in conveys to developers something about the expectations of local stakeholders, like Midtown, which controls some subsidies and has sway at design review. Why do planners go to all the trouble to develop such elaborate plans when they don't have any legal force? Because that's what planners like to do, and they get funding to pay for it. Why does the city and local foundation community fund so much local master planning when so much of it gathers dust? That's not a bad conversation to have.

I'm actually not anti master plan, just tired of trite renderings of skinny people in suits sitting at outdoor cafes under blue skies. Too many plans are lazy puff pieces that generate unreasonable expectations (and fat fees for middling design firms). I'm happy to hear that this one was important for drafting the MUDDs, though it's also kind of sad that it took a 50 page master plan to get such modest form-based requirements off the ground. It's also a bummer that the requirements weren't implemented further east. That drug score on the SE corner of Euclid and 79th makes me irrationally angry.

Ordinance No. XXX-12(Ward 8/Councilman J. Johnson): Authorizing the Director of Economic Development to enter into a loan agreement for $600,000 with UDAG repayments to allow the City to hire a design firm to create specifications and construction estimates for a proposed new facility at 4501 Chester Avenue to house both the Third District Police Station and the Police Department’s Central Communications Facility.

Yep, that sucks. And yes I'm sure a park would bring as much economic dynamism and new ridership to RTA as a business incubator. :roll: Pretty soon this area is going to have more in common with a wildlife refuge than a major urban center.

Yep, that sucks. And yes I'm sure a park would bring as much economic dynamism and new ridership to RTA as a park. :roll: Pretty soon this area is going to have more in common with a wildlife refuge than a major urban center.

As soon as I read this on my phone and saw park, I started thinking Detroit. I think the eastern side of Cleveland is not going to look too pretty in the next decade, and I am not just talking about all the dilapidated houses either. Maybe the zoo can open up an exhibit on the east side where bears and lions can roam free.

I agree with X. There are already huge tracts surrounding the Dunham Tavern city block that no one is currently fighting over. In theory, they could provide the desired density (if there were demand), while allowing the Dunham block to be come a refuge and recreation area, not for lions and bears, but for workers and residents in the surrounding areas, should they ever be developed. That shell of a building* clashes badly with the tavern, so lol, one of the two should come down. Anyway, there is that other smaller building just east of the Tavern with an empty lot fronting Euclid and some sort of a preservation sign - not sure what is happening there.

* I had once fancifully suggested that the building shell be converted into a transparent building housing the Museum of Urban Infrastructure and Construction showing off its "innards" in much the same way that Juno the Transparent Woman, once showed off her insides down the street at the Health Museum, but now I think they should just put the building out of its misery and demolish it.

I could not be happier with this outcome. That is if RTA doesn't screw this up somehow and continue to be the slum landlord that it has been with 6611. Without Dunham this property will continue to be the focus of despair in Midtown for years to come. The neighborhood needs to move on. One massive eyesore down, many more to go.

I could not be happier with this outcome. That is if RTA doesn't screw this up somehow and continue to be the slum landlord that it has been with 6611. Without Dunham this property will continue to be the focus of despair in Midtown for years to come. The neighborhood needs to move on. One massive eyesore down, many more to go.

I'm not upset by this. I think Dunham can create an interesting central park for the area, which ties to the early history of Euclid as a stagecoach line.

I don't mind a park for the Midtown Area, but is Euclid the best place for it? I suppose if it is done right and people buy into it and develop around the area it might work. I also feel between Stanard Farm, League Park, and various other "green areas" in this area, there's going to be a lot of "pasture." I suppose that goes back to what KJP said about Little House on the Prairie. If they can make it a Perk Park/Public Square type plaza, I'm all for it. Alpaca farmland I think we can do without.

^Truth. Remember the corner of E. 55th and Euclid before the Healthline came through? We lost a lot of urbanity in this section of town just within the last decade. Though the argument could be made that the bulidings needed to come down anyways, it's too late to have a conversation about saving them after they're demolished. We have a district which is inbetween downtown and University Circle, with a building which has the potential to be repurposed and put to use as offices which would add foot traffic to this stretch of Euclid. I would say that would be better than putting a park on Euclid. It's ok to have density, and it's ok to seek an urban environment. I've argued this before, but the Healthline's multiple stops in Midtown should call for more density- not less.

As for the Dunham Tavern- it's a nice place to visit and to hold an event. But I really hope that they don't get the building so it could be demolished for a park. We have enough open space right now on what is supposed to be our main urban throughfare as it is.

Cleveland does not need another park, at all, anywhere. Too much of the city has been reduced to pasture already. Coals to Newcastle as they say. What Cleveland needs is density. Recognizable urbanity. I might be OK with a truly massive park for the east side, something on the scale of Central Park or at least Mill Creek in Youngstown, which would be mostly forest and not open grass. But even then, that shouldn't be along Euclid. Euclid Avenue must be the city's primary showpiece thoroughfare. It must be and it can be. Any move away from that goal is a move in the wrong direction.

Redeveloping this building would be a great idea. Tearing it down for appropriate redevelopment would also be a great idea. Tearing it down for nothing would be moving in the wrong direction. Lack of city is the last thing we should want to showcase on our main street.

^Totally agree! This is Cleveland's main street.... look at High street two hours to the south in Columbus. Continuous vital urbanity. Filled with institutions, shops, restaurants, housing, hotels etc.. That's what Euclid should be. A park on another street in the area is fine, but not here.

Cleveland does not need another park, at all, anywhere. Too much of the city has been reduced to pasture already. Coals to Newcastle as they say. What Cleveland needs is density. Recognizable urbanity. I might be OK with a truly massive park for the east side, something on the scale of Central Park or at least Mill Creek in Youngstown, which would be mostly forest and not open grass. But even then, that shouldn't be along Euclid. Euclid Avenue must be the city's primary showpiece thoroughfare. It must be and it can be. Any move away from that goal is a move in the wrong direction.

Redeveloping this building would be a great idea. Tearing it down for appropriate redevelopment would also be a great idea. Tearing it down for nothing would be moving in the wrong direction. Lack of city is the last thing we should want to showcase on our main street.

OK now I'm rethinking my position! ;) Actually, I wouldn't be opposed to tearing it down if it was to make a piece of land more attractive to potential developers. If getting rid of an eyesore and replacing it with a park here makes the remaining pastures nearby more attractive to development, then I'd be in favor of that too.

Parks typically aren't open to further development and I'm not interested in making other lots attractive by putting a permanent gap there. We just spent millions trying to spur non-grassy development on this stretch. Let's not throw in the towel quite yet.

I guess I want this building saved, and wouldn't mind it sitting vacant for another few years if something really awesome happened with this place. The picture in the article from what I can remember was your typical shot from University Circle towards the skyline, you can clearly spot this building in that shot. It is a huge building that adds a lot to the area. All the space around this building is already gone, and like others have said, can be built upon if need is there. This building can be saved, and can really turn into a successful mixed-use development of some sort. I just think too much has already been lost in this section of the city, something like this really doesn't need to go. Seemed so positive just a few months ago.

Customers entering Midtown Farmers Market on Carnegie Avenue will soon be greeted by the smells of fresh pastries and hot coffee at the market’s new news and food stand set to open in February.

Tony Mendolera owns the market and knows a thing or two about the food business. His grandfather opened a store on Cleveland's east side in 1911 shortly after emigrating from Sicily. He started a family legacy that continues to this day.

^Seriously. And very sad that blight removal in Midtown is the essentially the same as blight removal in the Forgotten Triangle: demolition and grass seeds.

So everyone keeps saying "park" to describe Dunham's hope for expanding its property to include 6611. Does this mean we expect the land to be generally open to the public, even when the museum is closed? Or just that it will be green space? I love that the house has been preserved (even if that's not its original location), but I'm still trying to decide how psyched I'll be if we really do end up with a 2.2 acre interpretive museum about early 19th century small town/rural frontier life right in the middle of the corridor.

A so-called "park" need not necessarily discourage development on the same site. When several wonderful residential/commercial developments at Lee/Meadowbrook/Tullamore in Cleveland Heights fizzled out, the City took the parcel and made a temporary "park." The decrepit parking lot paving was removed, the foliage trimmed, and a picnic table or two added. Just enough put into it such that there's minimal public expense during the wait for another decent development plan.

However, if Dunham actually purchases this property, and demolishes the eyesore, I imagine that's that for the next 25 years. It's just such a shame the highrise was neglected to the point it became so extremely ugly and such a deterrant to the historic appearance of the Tavern. Nevertheless, it could once again look appearling - with big bucks and some imagination - and add a great deal to the vitality of the vicinity - particularly effective were it to spur other development around it.

Sorry that I don't understand, but what makes a building "decrepit"? Was 668 Euclid decrepit before being rehabbed into a jewel of downtown housing? Are a broken windows and graffiti the new definition for "eyesore" with "eyesore = cannot be fixed; must demolish"?

If its already been said that the building is structurally unsound or in danger of collapse, then fine, tear it down before disaster occurs. But I must be missing something here if even UO is for tearing this down?

CleB, UrbanOhio isn't a corporation or any kind of entity capable of expressing a single viewpoint. There are a lot of viewpoints here including yours, as you are a member of UrbanOhio just as everyone else here is. So please, keep sharing your views and moving the discussion forward as you have done. Thanks!

I think the 668 comparisons are off-point. Yes, 668 was in bad condition, but it was not the sore thumb this building is unless you looked directly at it. As unfortunate as it is, this building is MidTown's black eye..... its surroundings were destroyed, its facade was ripped off, and the only developer even floating the idea of a re-use quickly backed out. In its present state, it looms over the neighborhood like a dark storm cloud and only contributes to the perception that its condition is representative of the City as a whole. It is THE lasting impression of MidTown for those that don't follow the neighborhood's progress as closely as we do.

If you go back in time and don't destroy the density of that area through other demolitions, don't rip off its facade, and give me some glimmer of hope that it can be re-purposed sometime in the next decade, I would change my tune.

That said, I will take its current state over what Dunham is proposing. A public park would be agreeable, but a 'pasture' is not on my wish list.

KJP - of course you're exactly correct in that all these ideas are just everyone's opinion. I also agree with Hts121 in that this building is the focal point of those who want to point out negative things in Cleveland in general and Midtown specifically, unfortunately. I'm just saying that a structurally sound building with height and density shouldn't automatically be considered for demolition. Yes, I understand no developers are (currently) interested, and the one who did show interest has now backed out, but we've seen how quickly a market can turn both up and down.

Thanks for everyone's comments on these and the other threads; I'm a long-time follower and construction insider who will try to post more often in the future.

KJP - of course you're exactly correct in that all these ideas are just everyone's opinion. I also agree with Hts121 in that this building is the focal point of those who want to point out negative things in Cleveland in general and Midtown specifically, unfortunately. I'm just saying that a structurally sound building with height and density shouldn't automatically be considered for demolition. Yes, I understand no developers are (currently) interested, and the one who did show interest has now backed out, but we've seen how quickly a market can turn both up and down.

Thanks for everyone's comments on these and the other threads; I'm a long-time follower and construction insider who will try to post more often in the future.

I am right there with you on this building. If you read my comment at the top of this page, that's pretty much how I feel.

Regarding that "1842" year, I've researched the Tavern, for the Guide to Cleveland Architecture, and was told by a Tavern employee the 1824 structure was added to and remodelled. I believe it's in there - was not replaced and thus the sign is acceptable.

Regarding that "1842" year, I've researched the Tavern, for the Guide to Cleveland Architecture, and was told by a Tavern employee the 1824 structure was added to and remodelled. I believe it's in there - was not replaced and thus the sign is acceptable.

Public Square Group, a nonprofit organization that promotes skateboarding and skate parks as tools for redeveloping urban neighborhoods, engaging youth in positive activities and promoting active lifestyles, is opening an office and indoor skatepark in the MidTown neighborhood of Cleveland.

A little something has started on this one across from tech park and the second building is nearly complete as well just east of the tech park.http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/6814677878/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/6814677878/#)

After owning the Agora Theatre and the surrounding property for more than 25 years, you’d think Henry “Hank” LoConti’s decision to hand the cherished concert club over to MidTown Cleveland would be a heart-wrenching one. But to hear LoConti tell it, donating the property, which is valued at $6 million, to the neighborhood development corporation is his way to ensure the Euclid Avenue landmark has a future.

“We let it go because I’m very close to what is happening at MidTown,” LoConti says. “I see all the changes, and this area where the Agora [is located] is just sitting there. Talking to [MidTown Cleveland executive director Jim Haviland], I got an idea for what the plans are, and donating the Agora and the offices to them works better for both of us.”

In 1985, LoConti bought the one-time home of the Metropolitan Theatre as the new spot for his Agora Theatre, after the original location was damaged in a fire. With the property’s large main theater and smaller ballroom, the Agora continued its tradition as a hot spot for live music. Indie rockers the Strokes, rap icon Jay-Z and classic rocker David Bowie are just a few of the big names that played the club during its run.

But after the House of Blues opened downtown in 2004, the Agora didn’t attract the same level of talent, and it ultimately faded from the concert circuit. LoConti is convinced that with upcoming renovations such as new floors and the reopening of the Euclid Avenue entrance, the Agora can again be a vital live-music venue.

He says he’ll be involved in overseeing the renovations and hiring someone to book bands. Plus, the people behind the Umami Moto food truck have just opened a new restaurant called The Hipp in the building to serve the neighborhood’s lunch crowd. (See page 68 for our interview with The Hipp owner Jae Stulock.)

“By fall, we’ll come back strong in terms of booking shows,” LoConti says. “I want to get more shows into the theater. I hope most of the renovations are done by the time the building turns 100 years old in March of next year. I don’t know of too many theaters that are 100 years old and still standing, especially with the history of this place.”

Today I noticed the RTA mural is no longer on the monstrosity just to the west of Dunham Tavern. Is something finally going on there? Does anyone know what happened with the possible sale to either Dunham or that developer? I don't think the mural was in poor condition, not that I studied it that much, and it was the one redeeming visual quality of that horrendous-looking highrise, and now it's the blank wall. Sure hope this means something positive like either the building will go soon or, even better, something decent will be done with it. Meanwhile it's good to see the progress with the far smaller building just to the east of the Tavern. Hope they get tenants to occupy it soon, including commercial as advertised.

^I am not 100 percent sure but I think Dunham purchased the property recently (with the intent to tear it down). I do know that the deal with the mentioned developer fell through and I believed this allowed Dunham to step in. I would imagine somebody can confirm or correct this.

According to the fiscal officer's website, Dunham Square Land, LLC, owns 5 parcels (with a total of 6 buildings) on that block, with the most recent transfer happening in March 2011. Judging by number of buildings they own on a block without a lot of buildings around, I would guess they do have that building ... but if they do, they've had it for over a year? Confusing.

^I am not 100 percent sure but I think Dunham purchased the property recently (with the intent to tear it down). I do know that the deal with the mentioned developer fell through and I believed this allowed Dunham to step in. I would imagine somebody can confirm or correct this.

It is actually a pretty crazy and disturbing story. Let me just say that Pace's development had all the letters of intent that it needed and that Dunham Tavern, or someone associated with it, was able to secure at the last moment the RTA-owned facility thru a technicality (for lack of a better term).

Plans for new 3rd District police station in Cleveland: Whatever happened to ...?Published: Sunday, May 13, 2012, 10:00 AMJohn C. Kuehner, The Plain Dealer By John C. Kuehner, The Plain Dealer

Whatever happened to plans to build a new Third District police station in Cleveland? The project has yet to be designed by a yet-to-be selected engineering firm.

In September 2010, Economic Development Director Tracey Nichols said that the city was on a tight deadline to complete financing for constructing a new station. But it was not until February of this year that City Council adopted an ordinance to allow Nichols to enter into an agreement with MidTown Cleveland Inc. to spend up to $600,000 for architectural and engineering designs for a new Third District station on Chester Avenue near East 55th Street.

MidTown hired Scaparotti Construction Group to review the designs. A design team will be selected later this month and the project is expected to go out for bids in late summer. Groundbreaking could be late this year, Assistant Economic Development Director Anthony Thornton said.

The agreement with the non-profit MidTown makes it possible for the project to receive low-interest loans and grants, as well as tax credits. MidTown would then lease the building to the city, which lacks the bonding capacity to borrow for the project, estimated in 2010 to cost nearly $15 million.

It doesn't bother me. The design is fine to me. I think it's clear (or should be clear) that Midtown is explicitly going after a suburban style of development. From the Midtown Tech Park to this, it's clear that they WANT this style of development to be Midtown. I don't know if I'm opposed to that. I wouldn't want this in downtown or University Circle but it's my personal opinion that every neighborhood should have its own unique characteristics. So if Midtown is our neighborhood of business parks and suburban style development, then I'm okay with that. I don't want to see that everywhere, though.

Yeah, I'm going to go with Htsguy on this one. Even putting urban design aside, that thing is just a stupid pale box jazzed up with a triangular jut towards the street. Kind of epitomizes the lazy, artless architecture that's now the norm for public buildings. Didn't use to be that way. No reason it has to be.

Speaking of, the Ferchill Group is thinking about building some residential and retail, including a grocery store along Chester West of 105, east of 55th. Ferchill is doing Circle East Apartments, they did Park Lane Villa and also did the Westin Book-Cadillac renovation in Detroit.

Speaking of, the Ferchill Group is thinking about building some residential and retail, including a grocery store along Chester West of 105, east of 55th. Ferchill is doing Circle East Apartments, they did Park Lane Villa and also did the Westin Book-Cadillac renovation in Detroit.

I think your confusing the Ferchill Group with the Finch group who is doing Circle East and did Park Lane. Ferchill did do Book Cadillac and a nice project in Pittsburg but nothing in Cleveland for a while, which is unfortunate since it is their home town..

Speaking of, the Ferchill Group is thinking about building some residential and retail, including a grocery store along Chester West of 105, east of 55th. Ferchill is doing Circle East Apartments, they did Park Lane Villa and also did the Westin Book-Cadillac renovation in Detroit.

I think your confusing the Ferchill Group with the Finch group who is doing Circle East and did Park Lane. Ferchill did do Book Cadillac and a nice project in Pittsburg but nothing in Cleveland for a while, which is unfortunate since it is their home town..

Mov2Ohio, did you hear about some recent life to this project? We actually have an UO project page for this project (or a predecessor proposal by Finch) in the Abandoned Projects category: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,13381.0.html (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,13381.0.html)

Ferchill did do Book Cadillac and a nice project in Pittsburg but nothing in Cleveland for a while, which is unfortunate since it is their home town..

I remember hearing the owner/president of Ferchill (John?) give a talk to the ambassador group of the Downtown Cleveland Alliance a few years back. It sounded like he had a real chip on his shoulder for the way things are handled here in Cleveland politically when it comes to development, which is why he hasn't done anything here for a while. Odd selection for a speaker, I suppose...

Yeah I remember the same thing. I know he didnt get along with I believe Mike White and then he had somewhat soured on Cleveland and only looked at projects elsewhere, but I would have thought by now maybe they would have come around..... If Cleveland had a proactive Mayor, he would be trying to rebuild somekind of relationship there.

^After observing Ferchill for over 20 years, and to be kind, he likes to talk a lot but very often does not follow through. Again to be kind (I guess if you read between the lines I have never been a big fan).

It doesn't bother me. The design is fine to me. I think it's clear (or should be clear) that Midtown is explicitly going after a suburban style of development. From the Midtown Tech Park to this, it's clear that they WANT this style of development to be Midtown. I don't know if I'm opposed to that. I wouldn't want this in downtown or University Circle but it's my personal opinion that every neighborhood should have its own unique characteristics. So if Midtown is our neighborhood of business parks and suburban style development, then I'm okay with that. I don't want to see that everywhere, though.

I cannot fathom how suburban-style development would ever be OK for a major city's main corridor. The powers-that-be are suburbanizing this city at a breathtaking pace, and even though it violates every principle and value we hold dear, area urbanists are pretty much OK with this. I may never understand. While it's difficult to watch the city take so many wrong turns, it's even harder when these missteps are encouraged by all sides. It's almost as if urban density has no constituency here.

I believe that overlay was a big part of Midtown's current problem. It demanded suburban layouts and usage patterns for most of the corridor. It's not like we weren't warned, it's not like there was any big secret... it's just that the plan for Midtown is overtly suburban, and it rolled through with nary a peep of opposition.

It demanded suburban layouts and usage patterns for most of the corridor.

No it didn't. You may be due for a re-read of some earlier pages of this thread where we unequivocally showed you otherwise. It's clearly not worth relitigating for the 3rd or 4th time though.

Alternatively, it's possible that you're still wrong about that. One thing we did unequivocally establish is that you and I take very different approaches to this issue. And that's OK. But please stop being so insulting. Posts like that have no place anywhere.

^^^well.... it is kind of hard to argue when we have seen all of these structures built in MidTown over the past 3-4 years with hundreds and thousands of parking spaces and man-made lakes in the front...... and all of those office parkways in which the only interaction with Euclid is the sign at the front listing the various occupants of the structures built along those new parkways no closer than 1/2 mile in..... and don't forget about the suburban style shopping mall near 55th...... or the new cul-de-sac roads with gated entrances directly off Euclid popping up each day it seems

I definitely apologize for the tone of that post, you're right that it was jerk-y and unbecoming. I guess I'll just leave the ball in your court to show the text in the "overlay" that you think requires suburban site planning. There are links to the part of the zoning code containing the "overlay" earlier in the thread. And for anyone wondering what's we're talking about, in anticipation of the HealthLine, the city rezoned the blocks on either side of Euclid between 55th and 79th street with the stated intent of promoting better urban design. There are essentially three or four new zoning districts that apply only to this part of the city. It's not literally an "overlay," which means something slightly different, but that name just kind of stuck.

The thing speaks for itself. Those in charge of it have been overt in their desire for Midtown to compete directly with suburban industrial parks, and the usage pattern is very similar to the light industrial corridors of southern Cuyahoga County. Examples include Solon Road and several areas along Route 82.

Though mixed use and high density residential are nominally included, they're minimized and placed near the suburban retail plaza at 79th. Existing neighborhood assets like a grocery and a theater are surrounded with secured single-use complexes, clustered together with ample parking and main entrances in the rear. Yes the parking is also in the rear, which is desirable from an urban perspective, but this arrangement is hardly anything we'd call transit-oriented.

I don't think you're really talking about the overlay per se, but rather the cumulative planning effort, the city's backbone to hold developers to the zoning requirements, and the preferences of the developers themselves. I'm sure it sounds niggling, but laying the development pattern in Midtown all on the overlay is terribly misleading, IMHO. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, so if you really do see very objectionable things in the actual zoning text that comprises the overlay, I think they would be a nice, albeit technical, discussion for the zoning thread. And I'm always up for that :)

I guess I'll just leave the ball in your court to show the text in the "overlay" that you think requires suburban site planning.

JMO..... but if an answer to this without overly generalized conclussory statements of opinion can not be given, I think its finally time after 3+ years to put this puppy to rest. At least let's not allow our board to give off the impression that some code or written requirement "demands surburban style development" in MidTown. Either that or create a new thread.

Strap, that's an upthread reference if there ever was one. I tore that document apart, gave page cites and everything.

And you're right, there's more to it than just the overlay, which is indeed a silly thing to call it. I'm just saying the overlay didn't help a whole lot, and I suggest it was created with the intention of advancing, rather than opposing, a suburban ideal for Midtown.

Hts121, it's an easily accessible public document. People can read it. The fact that your interpretation is different than others' doesn't sound like a particularly strong argument for telling people to shut up about it. What if I've been right this whole time? Have you even paused to consider that, while hammering out all those snappy zingers? Look at your post history. How many of them are aggressively postured toward other forumers? Knock it off.

Whether the public planning of Midtown developments requires a separate thread from the outcomes of that planning is far beyond my station to determine. But I'm not sure what that leaves for this thread, discussion wise. It's not a photo thread, and discussions about news articles are likely to venture into the how's and the why's. If not, then what discussion is there to have?

^I could be wrong, but I think you focused your venom upthread on the master plan, not the zoning. The master plan is just pretty pictures that officials may or may not make discretionary decisions in light of; it has no legal force. The overlay is part of the zoning code and is an enforceable city statute. I think you may have conflated them upthread too.

I'm sure this sounds like distinction without a difference to some people, but I think Hts121 explains perfectly why it matters. There are many reasons why Midtown may not be developing into high density mixed use awesomeness, but I don't think the zoning code is one of them. The city is not putting major legal barriers in the way here.

^I could be wrong, but I think you focused your venom upthread on the master plan, not the zoning. The master plan is just pretty pictures that officials may or may not make discretionary decisions in light of; it has no legal force. The overlay is part of the zoning code and is an enforceable city statute. I think you may have conflated them upthread too.

I'm sure this sounds like distinction without a difference to some people, but I think Hts121 explains perfectly why it matters. There are many reasons why Midtown may not be developing into high density mixed use awesomeness, but I don't think the zoning code is one of them. The city is not putting major legal barriers in the way here.

To summarize, I'm not sure why we would expect outcome B, C, or D when those with discretionary authority have stipulated a clear preference for outcome A. The city, through its Midtown Inc affiliate, says it wants Midtown to develop into an industrial/commercial "tech park" to compete with those in the burbs, and it releases a thorough plan detailing how each parcel is to be used to that end.

How many developers are going to spend their own money developing a competing plan for the same area? Strong headwinds, to put it mildly, especially if the city's plan is not compatible with much else. It may not constitute a legal barrier per se, but I would argue that really is a distinction without a difference, and I did not find the explanation you're referencing to be persuasive. If the city is actively pursuing a certain sort of development for a given parcel, that is as prohibitive to alternatives as any actual legal barrier would be.

Much of my point rests on just how incompatible the city's plan is with "high-density mixed-use awesomeness"... so if you're picturing apartment developers itching to build a high rise amongst a sea of tech-fortresses, and worrying primarily about whether the zoning is favorable, then we're really not on the same page.

It doesn't bother me. The design is fine to me. I think it's clear (or should be clear) that Midtown is explicitly going after a suburban style of development. From the Midtown Tech Park to this, it's clear that they WANT this style of development to be Midtown. I don't know if I'm opposed to that. I wouldn't want this in downtown or University Circle but it's my personal opinion that every neighborhood should have its own unique characteristics. So if Midtown is our neighborhood of business parks and suburban style development, then I'm okay with that. I don't want to see that everywhere, though.

I cannot fathom how suburban-style development would ever be OK for a major city's main corridor. The powers-that-be are suburbanizing this city at a breathtaking pace, and even though it violates every principle and value we hold dear, area urbanists are pretty much OK with this. I may never understand. While it's difficult to watch the city take so many wrong turns, it's even harder when these missteps are encouraged by all sides. It's almost as if urban density has no constituency here.

I STRONGLY disagree with that statement. As I said before, all neighborhoods in this city shouldn't look the same. They should all have different characters, and if Midtown is the city's resident suburban development then so be it. As shown by the companies moving into the Midtown Tech Park and the rumored companies signing letters of intent, there is clearly a demand for it. I'm a supporter of high density, urban style development just like most here, and I generally recoil at most styles of suburban development. But I can't get myself worked up about this style of development in midtown, especially when its a deliberate part of a strategy. The businesses that moved to or are interested in moving to Midtown want that style of development. I want those employees here. I want those companies here. I want those tax dollars here. I love urban development, but to expect every neighborhood to be designed in the same way is not only absurd but its impractical. I want the city to be competitive. That's what drives my philosophy. Period. So if one neighborhood is designed to compete with the suburban tech parks then fine. Its a means to an end. The end is to get more people working and living in the city, be it in urban neighborhoods like downtown and University Circle or in a suburban style development like Midtown. My focus is wanting the city to be competitive. Period. If your focus is different, then we just have a difference of opinion.

^In fairness, while I guess I'm more willing to "settle" than 327, I'm not too keen on anything goes auto-centric stuff on our signature avenue, along a major transit investment and in an area that might poised for something better long term. I just don't think it's been as bad as 327 makes it out to be so far.

327, I didn't mean to rehash disagreements over the broader planning direction of Midtown, where I readily concede reasonable minds may disagree. I totally respect your point of view on that topic. I was just trying to set the record straight specifically with regards to the zoning "overlay," which is its own discrete thing. I hope to see it replicated in way or another in other parts of the city, so it's hard not to responds when it gets casually misrepresented.

^In fairness, while I guess I'm more willing to "settle" than 327, I'm not too keen on anything goes auto-centric stuff on our signature avenue, along a major transit investment and in an area that might poised for something better long term. I just don't think it's been as bad as 327 makes it out to be so far.

327, I didn't mean to rehash disagreements over the broader planning direction of Midtown, where I readily concede reasonable minds may disagree. I totally respect your point of view on that topic. I was just trying to set the record straight specifically with regards to the zoning "overlay," which is its own discrete thing. I hope to see it replicated in way or another in other parts of the city, so it's hard not to responds when it gets casually misrepresented.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not that "keen" on it either. I'm not a fan of it. But I don't find it so offensive and I don't view it in blood boiling horror as an urbanist. I'm not crazy about it, but I view it as a means to an end in this neighborhood.

Penn Square is what this area was called a century ago. Then we abandoned the city and this area lost its identity. BTW, the article said the four-track Pennsylvania Railroad "roared" through this area. The reason it roared is because it was an at-grade crossing of Euclid and East 55th until 1915 (BTW, Norfolk Southern still roars through there with 60-70 trains a day, plus two nightly Amtrak passenger trains)....

One of Cleveland's many neighborhood-scale downtowns. This one was served by streetcars every few minutes and 20 passenger trains a day to/from Hudson, Akron, Youngstown, Pittsburgh, the East Coast, plus Columbus, Cincinnati and St. Louis at its peak.....

No news here. The article listed three actual developments: 1) open grass, 2) renovated office space in the Agora, and 3) a police station that we already know to be inappropriately designed. No mention of neighborhood development along upper Prospect.

Apparently the plan is still centered around non-public workplaces. Captions in the pictures above bear that out... "Midtown - Build Your Business. Make a difference." The only difference I want is new planning. Start over.

The "Dunham GreenSpace Project"What a travesty, really. The 6611 Euclid building fading into history? Sorry but that is as representative of Clevleand's history as the Dunham Tavern.Maybe now we'll get more cut-out horses, pigs and bales of hay?? :|

No news here. The article listed three actual developments: 1) open grass, 2) renovated office space in the Agora, and 3) a police station that we already know to be inappropriately designed. No mention of neighborhood development along upper Prospect.

Apparently the plan is still centered around non-public workplaces. Captions in the pictures above bear that out... "Midtown - Build Your Business. Make a difference." The only difference I want is new planning. Start over.

Yeah, I was puzzled by the hub-bub of this since it was nothing at all new. Not sure what they were really announcing.... Just a reason to have a some publicity and a subsquent story I guess (the city PR machine at work)....

I hope the improvements make this are attractive to developers though. If new things are build here I hope it is along the lines of retail, residential and office space. A mix that would make this area conducive to more foot traffic. The area between CSU and 55th is full of institutional and other office space that leaves the street dead after a certain time. The area to the east up to about East 79th is also lacking in ammenities that would get people walking along this stretch. Not a good look when traveling from UC to PS.

^Then why do "we" always say "we need to...." I was under the assumption we had some kind of development fund here at UO to get started on these high-density, mixed use projects.

I hadn't seen anything prior about the rehab of the RR crossing bridge. There seems to be some other infrastructure improvements as well. That is a necessary step considering the current condition of that intersection.

I hadn't seen anything prior about the rehab of the RR crossing bridge. There seems to be some other infrastructure improvements as well. That is a necessary step considering the current condition of that intersection.

Yes thats been out there as well. Originally as part of the Corridor project, but lack of funds caused it to be left out at that point. Since then it has been mentioned as a "this will be happening at some point, project" They just merely packaged everything together so they could toot their own horns and show what a good job they are doing...

Nothing wrong with that when you consider the average person that doesnt read this board all day likely wouldnt have pieced it together or otherwise known.

If people don't think all our money and reputations are on the line with every one of these projects... I can't make them see it that way. But we're talking about the actions of a public entity here. That's not ambiguous, is it? What am I missing?

The "Dunham GreenSpace Project"What a travesty, really. The 6611 Euclid building fading into history? Sorry but that is as representative of Clevleand's history as the Dunham Tavern.Maybe now we'll get more cut-out horses, pigs and bales of hay?? :|

From the website: "...walking/jogging trails and beautiful gardens for contemplation and renewal."

On a bare parcel in an industrial park by the projects? There are better places for contemplation and renewal. I've seen them. The site isn't big enough for a park of any real consequence. This is what might be called the lowest and worst use.

Was nosing around the Web last night and found the two images below at http://www.dimitarchitects.com (where there are more images of this abandoned project). I realize the developers couldn't make a go of it at this tiny little moment in history. And now that the building will be demolished, no one will....

^I am not 100 percent sure but I think Dunham purchased the property recently (with the intent to tear it down). I do know that the deal with the mentioned developer fell through and I believed this allowed Dunham to step in. I would imagine somebody can confirm or correct this.

It is actually a pretty crazy and disturbing story. Let me just say that Pace's development had all the letters of intent that it needed and that Dunham Tavern, or someone associated with it, was able to secure at the last moment the RTA-owned facility thru a technicality (for lack of a better term).

^Another reliable poster reported that Price had agreed to 'step aside' if Dunham ever got their financing together. Michelle doesn't mention whether Price had his financing lined up or what kind of timetable he was looking at. I wonder if there was an actual, binding agreement between Price and Dunham or if it was more an "honor" thing which Price felt bound by. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/developer_drops_plan_to_remake.html (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/developer_drops_plan_to_remake.html)

Well, most of the sign out front is pictured here.I cant exactly say except that it looks like it's Frost's future home.I believe that "restaurant and" (not pictured) is before the "office space available"

^It was on a list of project approved by design review that you posted last November :) This project has been reported on sporadically in this thread as 6815 Euclid Ave, or the "Frost" project. The owner is rehabbing it primarily as office space but hopes to lease out the ground floor for restaurant. The Midtown web site has a little bit of info: http://www.midtowncleveland.org/frost-building.aspx (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/frost-building.aspx)

Now I hope you don't expect me to remember everything! :) However, I can tell you what happened almost to the day for things that occurred in my life from the late 1970s to the early 1990s. After that I apparently felt I'd seen it all and stopped making regular deposits into my memory bank. :)

Imagine if 6611 Euclid Avenue, next to the Dunham Tavern, was getting renovated instead of demolished. You would have the new midtown tech park, galluccis, this "Frost" project, a renovated 6611 Euclid Avenue, and Dunham Tavern all within one block.

Not entirely true. Architectural services on a project like this will be at least $10,000, not counting project management and AOR duties like construction management that would bring it up to 5-10% project cost (supposed to be 10% but architectural fees have been slashed nation-wide since the Great Recession).

This makes me really sad - I am heavily considering a new apt between here and downtown. :|

Not entirely true. Architectural services on a project like this will be at least $10,000, not counting project management and AOR duties like construction management that would bring it up to 5-10% project cost (supposed to be 10% but architectural fees have been slashed nation-wide since the Great Recession).

Not entirely true. Architectural services on a project like this will be at least $10,000, not counting project management and AOR duties like construction management that would bring it up to 5-10% project cost (supposed to be 10% but architectural fees have been slashed nation-wide since the Great Recession).

I was in my hometown, Rochester, NY, for a few days and the first thing I noticed when getting off I-490 and approaching West Main Street was the terrific new lights along West Main. Then the part of Main Street in central downtown has featured another style of wonderful decorative lightpolesf for over ten years. All are deep green with gold highlights. I'm quite disappointed Euclid Avenue planners chose what they did, considering what other cities have done with their Main Streets lighting. Ours are not ugly but not good contemporary design, imo, and certainly not attractive historical lighting. Or a combination. I mentioned this disappointment in my article on Euclid Avenue that appeared in AIA Cleveland's "The Voice" newsletter of 5/07.

Not entirely true. Architectural services on a project like this will be at least $10,000, not counting project management and AOR duties like construction management that would bring it up to 5-10% project cost (supposed to be 10% but architectural fees have been slashed nation-wide since the Great Recession).

So what's going on with the Frost Building? Instead of making a good effort to remove the red paint from the brick on the Euclid side they're covering over the entire wall with new pale yellow brick? They're just adding pieces that would jut out? I imagine the former, though I had expected the painted brick to be cleaned. How odd to cover it all over, and the extra layer can be seen from the facade. Are any of the other sides painted (no, I can't see the building while I write this....)?

Frost building brick kinda' funny.... Facade on side street yellow brick, north side red brick, west side facing Tavern also red brick, I assume, and I can't be sure if south side was yellow (facing street) or red brick (because side of bldg.) but I'm guessing it was red before painted brighter red. Now it's becoming yellow brick, again. Like I said, terribly odd they're creating an entirely new brick wall. Btw, I notice the new apartment building going up with the matching twin facade will not be same window arrangement as teh '20s twin has. The main thing is that the facades facing Euclid match; just seems a little funny the majority of both twins will have different exteriors. But then, no reason for the new construction to entirely copy the '20s building if there are good reasons to make changes.

I came across photos in my Euclid Avenue collection of two impressive, relatively highrise apartment bldgs. that used to be on Euclid just to the east of the "Frost" building. Such a shame they were demolished in the late 1970s, and for NOTHING, really....

That's the usual situation but in this case I'm not sure there had been anything else between building and Euclid. All the more strange with building an entirely new wall of yellow bricks. I don't really go along with it.

I suppose many of you have seen the front-page PD article today regarding the new park....

^This looks like a new design, although it has been so long since I viewed the first renderings I am not sure. I hope they build up to the sidewalk as, if I recall correctly, the first plan had a pretty significant setback and (not sure) may even have had parking in the front.

^Checked out another rendering on the Planning Commission site. It is apparently built to the sidewalk except for what appears to be a small strip of grass in front but, unfortunately, is surrounded by parking lots which are also build to the sidwalk on either side of the building. It looks almost like an island in a sea of parking.

Edit: The photo Cleveland posted is the rendering I was referring too. Blah.

^Checked out another rendering on the Planning Commission site. It is apparently built to the sidewalk except for what appears to be a small strip of grass in front but, unfortunately, is surrounded by parking lots which are also build to the sidwalk on either side of the building. It looks almost like an island in a sea of parking.

Edit: The photo Cleveland posted is the rendering I was referring too. Blah.

Yeah, but it's a police station, not a mixed use development. Nothing to exciting should be expected out of a police station when it comes to parking. The last thing we need is a cruiser on the 5th floor of a parking garage.

Not bad for a police station. At least they built it several stories tall and on the sidewalk of a major thoroughfare. I can't complain.

Beats the hell out of what was there before (vacant, weed-strewn lot) and what was there before that (an abandoned dairy that became a defacto homeless shelter that homeless advocates actually had the gall to want to save as in that condition as a shelter!).

I agree with the comment that its a police station, not a mixed use development. I'm not really that concerned about the layout of the parking lot of a police station. For what it is, I like the look of it. It'll be a pretty good looking station

Yes, needs more density within a block or so - apartments/condos/workers with lunch breaks! Then the park, if it maintains a safe image, may be popular in the better weather. Right now it's a little difficult to imagine one's walking, say, five blocks to spend time in a park in that location. Let alone drive there as a destination....

Seems like a winning proposal to me, although I'd almost rather they had gone with all the parking relegated on one side or the other of the PD station so that the building can frame some kind of intersection.

On a side note, today I saw them spraying down the demolition site just down Euclid. Wow, that was fast..

Cleveland officials authorized to break ground on first new police station in decades

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The city of Cleveland plans to break ground as early as late October on its first new police station in 34 years.

The City Council this morning authorized the administration to move forward with the estimated $17.5 million facility, which the city plans to build on Chester Avenue near East 45th Street.

The development will consolidate the existing 3rd District station, at East 107th Street and Chester Avenue, with the Public Safety Center at East 21st Street and Payne Avenue. Those two sites would be marketed for redevelopment.

This museum and plan seem so out of place. I thought midtown wanted to develop into more of a tech corridor. Just seems weird...

When I read your comment earlier I immediately thought of Apple's new digs way out in suburban nowhere. Then this convenient article magically appears! The parallels to the tech future of Midtown are insightful.

I never intended to become so knowledgeable about Apple, Inc.’s new “spaceship” headquarters being developed in Cupertino, California. Really, I didn’t. But the design seemed to me to be way overscaled for humans and particularly wrong for a classic slice of California sprawl that is begging to be retrofitted into a more walkable and people-oriented environment. Apple is already a world leader in consumer technology; this was its chance to be a world leader also for community-oriented sustainability.

Awesome news but depressing that the building across Euclid was just demolished:

"Hemingway Development, a division of Streetsboro-based Geis Cos., plans to spend $8.9 million to buy and renovate a vacant building at 6555 Carnegie Ave. to add to its Midtown office/laboratory complex...Hemingway bought the six-acre property at 6700 Euclid in 2008 and began construction of the $20 million building in 2010. The addition of the 7000 Euclid building to the complex was announced in April 2011, a month before the first tenant moved into the 6700 Euclid building. That first tenant was the entrepreneurial assistance nonprofit JumpStart Inc.

Now, said Tracey Nichols, the city of Cleveland's director of economic development, only 8,000 square feet remain uncommitted in those first two buildings." http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20120723/SUB1/307239973 (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20120723/SUB1/307239973)

^Thanks for posting! This is good news. I think this is the building attached to the rear of Gust Galluccis.

Also from that article:

Hemingway also is beginning to fill the four-story building that housed the Agora night club at 5000 Euclid and, a block south of Euclid, it is working with the city of Cleveland to get the 160,000-square-foot Warner & Swasey Building, a former machine tool factory at 5701 Carnegie Ave., into shape for redevelopment.

^I wonder what "getting into shape for redevelopment means" (the ws building)? I just happen to drive by this morning and noticed that a few of the boarded up windows had the wood removed and what looked like new plastic sheeting was in the windows. It was just a few windows here and there and I was wondering what that was all about.

^Thanks for posting! This is good news. I think this is the building attached to the rear of Gust Galluccis.

Yes, it's a 4 story brick warehouse in the middle of the block, and parking lot fronting Carnegie. Hopefully the parking lot will be built on someday. I didn't realize Hemingway was doing so many projects in Midtown.

MidTown Tech Park expanding with third phase, new tenants on Cleveland's Health-Tech Corridor

An urban business park keeps growing in Midtown Cleveland, where Hemingway Development is testing the market for growing Cleveland companies and suburban tenants looking to move.

The developer, part of the Geis Cos. of Streetsboro, has a contract to buy a 64,000-square-foot building at 6555 Carnegie Ave.

The deal, set to close in late September, will add a third structure to the MidTown Tech Park, an emerging suburban-style office park in a former industrial neighborhood.

With the $8.9 million acquisition and redevelopment of 6555 Carnegie, the park will comprise 242,000 square feet -- much of it leased or spoken for.

"I think this building has got a ways to go," said Fred Geis, a Hemingway principal. "But we wanted to create a three-building campus. ... It gives people moving from the suburbs confidence. They see an engineered community. They want to have a suburban feel, while still moving back into the urban environment."

I love the fact that commerce is taking place in a formerly forgotten area, but all of this talk of Midtown as a suburb is just wrenching.But it's here to stay. Talk about suburban...now that the 6611 Bldg is gone, the Euclid Ave. approach to the Dunham tavern makes one feel like they're driving on River Oaks Trail in the 040, or something like that.

I understand your point, but I don't have a problem with this strategy. As I've said before, I believe its important to have one neighborhood that can compete with the suburbs. If Midtown needs suburban style development to bring in investment, then so be it. This is clearly a planned and deliberate strategy to make a suburban district out of Midtown. I'm ok with that

^ Ive always agreed with that. If a company really want a sprawling campus for some reason, Id rather they build it in Cleveland than in the suburbs. We've got plenty of room. Now I would hope in the future, the campus desire fades, which I think has already begun, but I would sure like to have some of those companies back that have left the city completely. Now that should not exist in Downtown. But I think there should be a designated place in the city for that type of buildings to cater to certain businesses desires.

Im not really seeing the suburban thing happening in midtown though, not with the techpark atleast. I know the article states that, but exactly is the major factor that makes this suburban? Cant be the zero setback or the access to public transit.

Im all for the commerce too. ^For me, the suburban feel is crystallized in this new Dunham estate that we're going to get (although there are several other things).It serves up quite an irony...where are Northeast Ohio's finest Western Reserve homesteads? Gates Mills, Hudson and inner-city Cleveland :wtf:

I don't get a surbuban feel at all from either development. Dunham has a rural feel and look to it.... as it intends for better or for worse. The tech park gives off the impression of the early infancy of urban renewal..... maybe because that is what it is. I don't think MidTown has peaked Chilli's interest just yet

Well I think the suburban word creates a bit of a stir, I totally understand the concept of it. I mean its suburban in style (the buildings could have surface parking and exist ast 2-3-4 levels) but has access to amenities that would attract top talent. Transit, etc.

Midtown is so HUGE, that if we could get it filled in first, thats better. Then we will worry about density.. We still have Carnegie and Chester to worry about.

Right...we can't just start adding density when there are so many vacant or currently unusable spaces allover the city...especially around midtown and south. Fill in holes and density naturally happens.

I drove down Euclid today on a work errand from 76th to 30th. Looks really nice now, well the facades at least. Seems like there is a ton of renovation on the facades but most of the buildings look vacant.

That building across from Gallucci's is completely torn down now.

I actually saw two guys in ties walking East on the sidewalk with carryout. That was weird, to see pedestrians on that stretch.

I feel that a high-tech project should be above the suburban office park format.

Not trying to be argumentative, but "feeling" and financial and design necessities are two different things. I like most here think design standards should be raised, but at the same time, how can I really dictate someones financial status on a project?

Anyone in-the-know over whether Midtown is working with the District of Design?

I always thought the DOD was a cool idea. And even if Midtown develops a more "suburban type" personality, maybe at least some interesting art/design concepts can make it a more interesting place. It seems natural to me that the concept flow from Playhouse Square (art) and through Midtown (technology).

Right...we can't just start adding density when there are so many vacant or currently unusable spaces allover the city...especially around midtown and south. Fill in holes and density naturally happens.

Fill in holes with density. Filling in holes with less-than-density results in just that. Because A = A.

I feel that a high-tech project should be above the suburban office park format.

Not trying to be argumentative, but "feeling" and financial and design necessities are two different things. I like most here think design standards should be raised, but at the same time, how can I really dictate someones financial status on a project?

I agree with James. Let me make what may be a bad analogy, but I just planted some ground cover in a part of my lawn which doesn't get any sun. Instead of putting all of the planters in one spot and hoping they spread from there, I spaced them (as the experts would tell you to do) over the entire area and they will fill-in much quicker and more naturally. Point being, you can't force density. When you do, you end up with density not ideal for an urban experience.... like the Clinic or Legacy Village.

@HTS121, EXACTLY! We all want more density, but we have to be pragmatic and not militant about this. We have to fix Midtown first before we can be picky. Being picky is a luxury. Once Midtown is stabilized, THEN we can be more selective about what goes there

And like I've said previously (including in this conversation), I don't mind the idea of having a neighborhood that has sprawling business campuses in order to compete with the suburbs. I'm a skyscraper kind of guy, personally, but like another person said, if a company is determined to have a sprawling campus, I'd rather them build it in the city instead of the suburbs. If the market dictates this, then you go with it. And as I've been saying from day one, its clear that this is HOW THEY WANT IT. Midtown is deliberately designed to be Cleveland's answer to the suburban business culture. I, for one, am ok with that. I wouldn't want to see this downtown, but for Midtown, why not? We need to be competitive. Let's face it, not everyone is density loving urbanites like most of us. But we want and need businesses and people. It would be painfully stupid to turn down a company interested in coming into or back into a city because we don't want them to build a "sprawling" campus. If Midtown is Cleveland's suburban business district, then so be it.

And like I've said previously (including in this conversation), I don't mind the idea of having a neighborhood that has sprawling business campuses in order to compete with the suburbs. I'm a skyscraper kind of guy, personally, but like another person said, if a company is determined to have a sprawling campus, I'd rather them build it in the city instead of the suburbs. If the market dictates this, then you go with it. And as I've been saying from day one, its clear that this is HOW THEY WANT IT. Midtown is deliberately designed to be Cleveland's answer to the suburban business culture. I, for one, am ok with that. I wouldn't want to see this downtown, but for Midtown, why not? We need to be competitive. Let's face it, not everyone is density loving urbanites like most of us. But we want and need businesses and people. It would be painfully stupid to turn down a company interested in coming into or back into a city because we don't want them to build a "sprawling" campus. If Midtown is Cleveland's suburban business district, then so be it.

But "midtown" and "suburban business district" are two different things. Yes, a midtown is a thing. By putting a suburban business district where your midtown should be, you forgo having one all. Can't put it in the suburbs, or in Tremont or something, because midtown is specifically the area between downtown and uptown.

There are advantages to this unique position that the current plan squanders. For example, Midtown sits between two major employment centers. Setting it up as yet another employment center is redundant and prevents synergy. This is an awfully long and important stretch to tilt so heavily toward any one use.

Regardless, midtown is by definition a part of the city's core. Developing it in an anti-urban fashion establishes a long-term structural problem. Is this really what the core of a major city should look like? How does it compare to others? What does it say about our city and about our pride in it?

Right...we can't just start adding density when there are so many vacant or currently unusable spaces allover the city...especially around midtown and south. Fill in holes and density naturally happens.

Fill in holes with density. Filling in holes with less-than-density results in just that. Because A = A.

I agree that the hot neighborhoods should fill holes with density. Downtown and University Circle should be mid to high rise naturally. There's less space. Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit Shoreway should be dense, but can't support high rise and doesn't really fit in to their neighborhood characteristics. Midtown cannot support extremely high density just yet. If it could, we would see it and we would not see old industrial buildings that could be amazing with a little design and a lot of money destroyed. Let's get some success stories, aka what's happening right now, and we will see more investment in the area.

Figured I'd test the braintrust at UO with this question. Posted is the plan courtesy of ClevelandOhio. Next to it is a very simple redesign, in fact it's barely that. I simply put the station at the sidewalk and then cut the depth of the building about 15% and made it front more of Euclid. The parking is still there, but there's less of it in front.

Here's my question: aside from the possibility that there are floor plans that require certain dimensions to the building (which is seldom the case) why wouldn't you (as a planner, architect, or councilman) have the guiding principal in your decisions be to make plans (especially on Euclid) as urban and dense as possible -- always. Of course this street is mostly vacant right now with little foot traffic, but if you have an OUNCE of aspiration for your city you'd imagine that plans TODAY need to match the ideal for tomorrow.

If 30 years from now the police station has a small parking deck in the back, has leased the lots and is flanked on either side by new developments of retail, commercial and residential ( :drunk: I know that's a big dream) then wouldn't it be odd that the streetscape hits a random tree lined setback at the police station? And isn't it easier to just build the city today how we envision it tomorrow (if it's a matter of a few feet of setback?)

In the end I realize there is not one single vision for the city (or for what "urban" means). Euclid may not need to be like 5th Ave or Michigan Ave, but instead might offer a unique "Cleveland" urban street. But can anyone think of a reason why the Default M.O. for something like this isn't "build it so it fits in with the ideal long term" especially if that can be done without new costs?

^^ My guess: SecurityWe are, afterall, still in the post 9/11 era of making "high-profile" buildings as secure as possible. Has anyone seen the actual elevations with details showing (trees, bollards, etc)?That's my take

I think this city needs more forward thinkers at its helm...thank you for this!

Yes thank you. I try to figure ways to reword what 327 continually trys to and apparently fails to get across, and you did it just about as good as anybody could have done while looking at it in a slightly different manner.

For some reason many people here also seem to place an either/or or everything/nothing approach (picky/do things how ever half assed you want because we are desperate and therefore shouldnt have any standards or expectations), and yet you nailed it with "but if you have an OUNCE of aspiration for your city"...... Something that 327 has basically been saying over and over.

Accepting certain realities (both practical and legal) and planning accordingly in no way means that you don't have an ounce of aspiration for your city. In my mind, that descriptor would better fit someone who wants to wait and wait and wait and wait for decades upon decades for the slight possiblity that some urban utopia will magically pop out of the ground in an area of the city which has no current market demand for lower Manhattan style density. Should that day come, I am supremely confident that the costs of knocking down an office park or a police station will not stand in the way of progress.

@Hts121, again I agree. It is insane to say "I don't want [insert developer name here] to spend their money in a neighborhood that was blighted and vacant because they don't build to my exact preferred specifications. I'd rather wait and let the place stay vacant for another 20 or 30 years." That's insane. That kind of militant attitude will ensure that some neighborhoods will stay vacant and blighted. Every neighborhood is not downtown, Ohio City, Tremont, University Circle and not every neighborhood can grow into those neighborhoods. Its absurd, absolutely absurd to be upset about this. Now if this was University Circle? Yell to the rooftops. But its not.

Its an either/or because it IS an either/or. For Geis and the companies interested in being in Midtown, its EITHER build what they are looking for OR they aint coming. Its really that simple. So right now, for Midtown, it IS either/or.

I agree with James. Let me make what may be a bad analogy, but I just planted some ground cover in a part of my lawn which doesn't get any sun. Instead of putting all of the planters in one spot and hoping they spread from there, I spaced them (as the experts would tell you to do) over the entire area and they will fill-in much quicker and more naturally. Point being, you can't force density. When you do, you end up with density not ideal for an urban experience.... like the Clinic or Legacy Village.

In order for this to be a valid analogy, whatever you covered your lawn's bald patch with must also specialize in kill the rest of the grass and creating more bald spots where previously there was good, thick lawn. Even if it was tough to keep mowing, started to look a little rough without any rain or watering, etc etc...

Accepting certain realities (both practical and legal) and planning accordingly in no way means that you don't have an ounce of aspiration for your city. In my mind, that descriptor would better fit someone who wants to wait and wait and wait and wait for decades upon decades for the slight possiblity that some urban utopia will magically pop out of the ground in an area of the city which has no current market demand for lower Manhattan style density. Should that day come, I am supremely confident that the costs of knocking down an office park or a police station will not stand in the way of progress.

I call this the "Sim City Fantasy," of which there is far too much of on these forums. It's nice to dream, but let's be realistic. Without any sort of economic miracle jumpstart Cleveland will continue to reinvent itself. In 1950 we were a powerhouse. Today 2/3 of the cranes in North America are in Dallas building high rises on the prairie. Its our reality today and we have to make the best of it.

Density occurs because more people want to be there. People want to be someplace because the area has gone from being distressed, to stable, to attractive. The larger the area where the economic condition has improved, the better. As vacant buildings and empty lots fill in, businesses in that area succeed and as people feel more secure, the word gets out and more want to be there. Parking lots starting filling with decks and more offices, housing, etc, you get more density.

As much as I would have loved to have to see the abandoned warehouse next to Dunham's be converted to a high-density apartment building, why would anyone want to live there? Other than Gallucci's, what else is around there? There's no restaurants, no drug stores, no banks, there's nothing. That area is so devoid of basic services, that everyone will have to travel 10-20 blocks just to survive.

Some of us seem to feel that creationism is a viable concept when it comes to restoring neighborhoods. That might work if we had a dynamic economy, but we can't have one when all these neighborhoods are so ravaged and have so many people who lack marketable workplace skills. Unless we discover gold or even shale gas under Cleveland, we have to evolve this recovery into stabilization, then to dynamism over many decades. Cities, like life, change through organic evolution.

I don't think the building next to Dunham could have been residential right now for the reasons KJP mentioned, but why not something like Hemingway's Tech Park down the street? Yes, I understand they're going for a suburban office park feel, (because people like huge parking lots?) but I think that's when people say, "Why are you tearing down something that could be reused and building something brand new down the street?"

Who has ever chosen to live in a suburban industrial park? If we build it out as an area people don't want to live in, we face an uphill battle in reaching this second stage everyone keeps expecting. There's no logical connection between building a suburban industrial park and generating residential demand for the same exact area. I'm just not sure how that particular A can ever lead to that particular B. In fact, the relationship would seem to be that A precludes B. So if B is the desired result, then A is a bad plan. Are there any examples of this happening elsewhere? Do people colonize suburban industrial parks, in city or otherwise, because that environment appeals to them?

I think the recent discussion on how to develop has been enlightening. I think a poll on the subject would be interesting, as people are surprising me with some of their responses.

Anyhow, I'm curious about one thing. Midtown is right in between the downtown of a major American city and one of the most prestigious hospitals in the world. Is it really that crazy to demand a certain level of design for current projects? At the very least Euclid Ave should have elevated criteria, if it doesn't already.

Who has ever chosen to live in a suburban industrial park? If we build it out as an area people don't want to live in, we face an uphill battle in reaching this second stage everyone keeps expecting. There's no logical connection between building a suburban industrial park and generating residential demand for the same exact area. I'm just not sure how that particular A can ever lead to that particular B. In fact, the relationship would seem to be that A precludes B. So if B is the desired result, then A is a bad plan. Are there any examples of this happening elsewhere? Do people colonize suburban industrial parks, in city or otherwise, because that environment appeals to them?

Isn't that what I was just saying? There isn't much around there to support a high density neighborhood.

But I wouldn't call an area with a grocery store, a historical museum, an elementary/high school as an industrial park. It's probably closer to an industrial park than a neighborhood. But Midtown isn't all one thing or another. I'd like it to continue with that theme as it continues to add stuff. But it's going to come slowly and not as dramatic as we might want. Like life.

I think the recent discussion on how to develop has been enlightening. I think a poll on the subject would be interesting, as people are surprising me with some of their responses.

Anyhow, I'm curious about one thing. Midtown is right in between the downtown of a major American city and one of the most prestigious hospitals in the world. Is it really that crazy to demand a certain level of design for current projects? At the very least Euclid Ave should have elevated criteria, if it doesn't already.

It does. It just doesn't have urban utopia design criteria and certain people will complain about any project which doesn't meet that standard. Keep in mind that this also is just one project. It's not like Euclid Avenue is being built out like Alpha Dr. or Beta Dr. in Mayfield, which is what I consider to be a surburban office park.

Certainly, nobody has ever chosen to live "in" a "surbanan office park" if that is what they insist on calling it for lack of a better term. People do live in close proximity to such uses however. I have lived here for a long time and I have yet to meet the person who wants to live in MidTown given the status quo conditions. Monumental mistakes were made long before any of our times..... we can't go back and undo what was done. Nor can we afford to continue to wait IMHO. We have to react to current market demands and hope that the market evolves through the spread of momentum east from Downtown and west from UC.... which won't occur to any significant extent until those two employment and residential centers have been fully built out.

The status quo at the time of the BRT project was a relatively clean slate. Certain building-block amenities existed at that time, like Gallucci's and the Agora, while the neighborhood's unique positioning is a constant. The city put forth a plan involving a high percentage of industrial/office land use. Development has taken place in accordance with that plan, including a couple of housing projects whose restrictions (homeless and elderly) do not facilitate marketability or growth. The city also put forth a plan to place a mental hospital right at Euclid and 55th.

All of the city's actions arise from, and support, the premise that Cleveland's midtown is undesirable and unsuitable for the general population to live in. I for one feel that this is the worst possible approach for the city to take. Our goal should be to eliminate the barriers between us a desirable future, not to enforce them or codify them. Similarly, I think the idea that nothing good can happen elsewhere in the city until downtown and uptown are "done" is needlessly self-limiting. For one thing, those are the two most expensive areas to develop.

The one person who said some have a "Sim City" attitude is so true. The fact of the matter is this: market forces determine what gets put where. Yes, planning has a ton to do with the initial strategy, but plans mean nothing if there's no one willing to put money behind it. One can complain about the Midtown strategy all day long, but smart people with a lot of money are building here and its attracting companies there. The demand is high for the Midtown Tech Park, that's why they keep expanding.

If you have the money, you make the rules. Its just that simple. Companies want to be in the Midtown Tech Park. Developers want to build things like that. Why? BECAUSE of the proximity of the Clinic and University Hospitals. Companies in this field would want to be close to the Clinic and UH for obvious reasons. That's called DEMAND. There's a demand for health and tech companies to be close to our health institutions so developers see the demand and respond to it. Its just that simple. The Midtown plan didn't come out of thin air. So people can gripe about it all day long, but you can choose militancy or progress. In this instance, you can't have both.

What I find amusing about all these SimCity references is that all you control in that game, with respect to any given parcel, is the zoning. You can't make anything happen; you can't even communicate with the algorithm determining what gets built there.

Real world local governments have a lot more control over what goes where than anyone playing a SimCity game. So to suggest that someone advocating a policy change is "playing SimCity" just makes no sense. SimCity is a game. It has nothing to do with the actual public decisions we're discussing here.

What I find amusing about all these SimCity references is that all you control in that game, with respect to any given parcel, is the zoning. You can't make anything happen; you can't even communicate with the algorithm determining what gets built there.

Real world local governments have a lot more control over what goes where than anyone playing a SimCity game. So to suggest that someone advocating a policy change is "playing SimCity" just makes no sense. SimCity is a game. It has nothing to do with the actual public decisions we're discussing here.

Understood completely 327.

But you have to admit there is an awful lot of comments on this site that are wishful thinking. Much like Sim City, the posters think they can click on a "square" in midtown and a building will shoot up out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for Euclid Ave to be another Michigan Ave with towers linking downtown to U Circle, but I'm also a realist.

I forgot to mention....I drove by the apartment building that burned on Euclid across from Aldi and they have finally started rebuilding the structure. Also, the storefront renovation across from Midtown Tech Park has started renovation. I'll try to get some pics soon.

Real world local governments have a lot more control over what goes where than anyone playing a SimCity game. So to suggest that someone advocating a policy change is "playing SimCity" just makes no sense. SimCity is a game. It has nothing to do with the actual public decisions we're discussing here.

Agreed, and I've noticed on the UO boards that at times people get upset or criticize others for sharing their opinions. I'd just like to point out that's not only unfair but against the spirit of a forum.

I posted an image last week of the proposed police station and then an alternative that simply moved the building against the sidewalk and traded some depth for additional street frontage. Those aren't fantasy ideas, it's something that the city can absolutely do (be it through changing regulations that they themselves set, or simply requesting a new design). Regardless when I talk about aspiration I'm talking about vision and planning. Does one building's physical appearance mean the adjacent blocks will become a vibrant urban neighborhood? Of course not, but over time 1 building's C+ development turns into a series of C+ buildings and eventually a C+ neighborhood.

Some have mentioned they are "fine" with the building as it is, and that in the future if the economics behind development lean toward new construction, razing the building will not a problem. I disagree. Developing requires an intricate dance to balance the costs and funding, and the cost of razing a building on site might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Also, that police station should absolutely be a part of the fabric of the street in 30 years whether or not Midtown is bustling.

My entire point, and my overall wish for the city we all come here to debate, discuss and celebrate -- is that the small things our decisions makers control, be they: architectural details (think: Marriot in University Circle mild redesign after rejection by committee), interaction with the street (read: zoning and building regulations which our leaders CONTROL), and development of pedestrian friendly v. auto friendly policies -- are part of an overall lens or perspective that has long term vision for the city.

It will take the economy, change in lifestyle taste from locals, and animal spirits to make Cleveland's Euclid Corridor (and adjacent neighborhoods) as vibrant as levels unseen for 50 years -- but the City's leaders do have significant power to direct and focus those forces once present. I'm not playing Sim City, but rather sharing in this forum's debate on what is and what could be: Cleveland.

@Burnham_2011, its funny you say that people get attacked for giving an opinion as if that only comes from one side. Those of us that believe in being "reasonable" and "realistic" are told that we have no vision or we're uninspired. There's a certain segment here on UO that are a bit militant. They only want THEIR vision for Cleveland and any other vision is wrong. I'm not saying that's you, but there's a loud minority on UO that appear to feel that way.

Myself and people that agree with me see in Midtown people who want to spend their money developing an area that has desolate, abandoned areas in it. Some of us are not willing to wait years (and possibly decades) for the circumstances to be just right to give us EXACTLY what we want.

My grandmother says "sometimes you got to take the bitter with the sweet". We can't always get EXACTLY what we want. That's what the debate was about here. It was about some here acting like development in Midtown is a bad thing because its not EXACTLY what they want. That's foolish to me and, apparently, some others on UO too. That's what its about. Most of us would prefer density laced development in Midtown. There's no market for it there right now. Like it or not, there isn't. There IS, however, a market for what they're building. There's a demand for what they're building. And, as another commenter said, I'd rather have them build it here than in the suburbs so we can see even MORE money and jobs leave. Aren't you tired of us just giving these things away? I am. I want jobs, money and opportunity in Cleveland. If I have to take a suburban tech park to get it done, so be it. That's called pragmatism. Taking the bitter with the sweet.

And on the police station, personally, I'm not that concerned about it because its a POLICE STATION. Not much you can do with it. Its not mixed use. Its a practical building with a practical purpose.

Sharing ideas publicly invites public scrutiny. I haven't seen any attacks, and if I did, I will delete them. The more someone shares their ideas and beliefs, the more you get used to hearing negative and positive feedback. If you don't like the negative feedback, change your ideas, your means of presenting them or your audience.

Regarding the Erie Square apartment complex - yes, construction has been going on for many weeks and the past week or so it got to the fourth and final floor level. I can see the design of the windows, etc. isn't the same but that's okay. MUCH better new design/floor plan, with facade and front section matching those of unscathed building, than complete demolition and starting over - if even.

It doesnt look like from pictures on the planning agenda. And look we have reverted back to pole barns for midtown...http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2012/08032012/index.php (http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2012/08032012/index.php)

That needs some serious help. OY...step in the wrong direction. I hope they don't cave due to a vacant lot being filled.

I know one person on here thinks they should cave (because "it is an either/or" "take it or leave it" (no negotiation!), since it would fill an empty lot and therefore we shouldnt have any kind of requirements or expectations because we are desperate. We certainly shouldnt be pushing for any kind of standards whatsoever :wink:.

And certainly surf, the Arborvitae and forsythia should make up for it.. maybe throw in a couple of honey locust for good measure.

(To think of all the design review that I sat on where CVS or Walgreens (etc) wanted to come in and build a cinder block building with a parking lot in the front, the first thing they nearly ALWAYS propose, since many communities dont realize that is typically their tactic but not their expected outcome, therefore thats what these communities end up with. I think (and hope) most realize by now that they just need to be told that they have to do better and they will (well except for the desperate ones, because "it is an either/or situation").

Just as a suburban developer needs and typically seeks guidance when building in a city...

It will also be 15 feet back from the road with a landscaping buffer and an iron fence designed to make patrons more comfortable at night. It actually says that in the proposal.

Then again, this is a car-oriented business and it's on Carnegie, so I wouldn't use the same standards I would for Euclid. If this were on Euclid I'd be pretty upset about it. To the extent that every neighborhood needs this kind of thing, it's better to cluster them on an appropriate strip, which is what we seem to be doing. To the extent that the entire city needs better design standards, well... yes, it does. The drug stores especially.

It will also be 15 feet back from the road with a landscaping buffer and an iron fence designed to make patrons more comfortable at night. It actually says that in the proposal.

Then again, this is a car-oriented business and it's on Carnegie, so I wouldn't use the same standards I would for Euclid. If this were on Euclid I'd be pretty upset about it. To the extent that every neighborhood needs this kind of thing, it's better to cluster them on an appropriate strip, which is what we seem to be doing. To the extent that the entire city needs better design standards, well... yes, it does. The drug stores especially.

This area actually has nearly all of the other buildings around it built up to the street. I think it would be silly to all of the sudden reverse that.

A few shots of the newer Geis building, the redevelopment across the street and Erie Square apartments?:(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8163/7700602014_1a155c4fff.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/7700602014/)IMG_2640 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/7700602014/#) by lilblondiecan2003 (http://www.flickr.com/people/jjames0408/), on Flickr(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7278/7700599166_52eb6124b0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/7700599166/)IMG_2641 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/7700599166/#) by lilblondiecan2003 (http://www.flickr.com/people/jjames0408/), on Flickr(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8428/7700603346_ba85952cf2.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/7700603346/)IMG_2639 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjames0408/7700603346/#) by lilblondiecan2003 (http://www.flickr.com/people/jjames0408/), on Flickr

There is a design overlay for much of what we consider Midtown, but not all of it. The Third District building and the auto shop we've been debating are just outside of it. It goes from the south side of Chester to the north side of Carnegie.

I do not think anyone on here has posted anything about this project. Lutheran Metropolitan Ministries (and North Presbyterian Church as a tenant) are moving to a new home at 4515 Superior Ave, into a heavily renovated building. Check out pics below. Also, see here for more info about the project: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/01/lutheran_metropolitan_ministry_1.html (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/01/lutheran_metropolitan_ministry_1.html), http://www.clevelanddevelopmentadvisors.com/Projects/PrinterFriendly.aspx?id=50 (http://www.clevelanddevelopmentadvisors.com/Projects/PrinterFriendly.aspx?id=50), and http://www.lutheranmetro.org/capital-campaign.html (http://www.lutheranmetro.org/capital-campaign.html)

I happened to be on site this morning and snapped a few pics. See below:

An emergency ordinance authorizing the Director of Economic Development to enter into a Tax Increment Financing Agreement with Hemingway at 6555, LLC, to provide for the redevelopment of 6555 Carnegie Avenue as part of the Midtown Tech Park campus; to provide for payments to the Cleveland City School District; and to declare certain improvements to real property to be a public purpose.

Remarks by Director of Economic Development Department: See Legislation.

Yikes, sorry about that. Hemingway (Geis) has also shown a lot of interest in the Warner and Swasey building, also for tech corridor redevelopment, so I read right over the address. The project won $13 million in federal grants and loans for remediation and redevelopment about a year ago, so makes sense there's finally some action on site. Hopefully the full redevelopment is set now (or close to it), but I would have expected an announcement if that were the case.

^I think so. I think it's similar to the situation with the John Hartness Brown Building downtown: the county (or city in that case) got a public grant to fund the environmental remediation (in that case asbestos), but the developer still needs to arrange financing for redevelopment of the cleaned-up site. So even if we see this stage of work, the real project isn't yet definite.

^Although I hope whoever in the bureaucracy has done a through investigation and analysis and is convinced that redevelopment in the near future will be a go since there are so many other places that money could be used.

^Agreed, and I'm sure the city tries to do its best to weigh certainty against the need to keep projects moving. FWIW, from reporting as recently as this summer (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20120723/SUB1/307239973&template=mobile (http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20120723/SUB1/307239973&template=mobile)) sounds like Geis/Hemingway is very much involved and plans to take on the site. I don't know when these docs are dated or which grant program they were prepared for, but these materials include some detailed info about the proposed project and Hemingway's involvement (and the tons of subsidy): http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/clnd_images/ED/WS_CORF_ApplicationInfo.pdf (http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/clnd_images/ED/WS_CORF_ApplicationInfo.pdf)

BACKGROUND INFORMATIONCleveland Development Advisors provided $8 million of Federal NMTCs coupled with $2.5 million of Ohio NMTCs, along with a $2,249,548 bridge loan to Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry for the development and relocation of Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry new headquarters, known as the Richard Sering Center. Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry is a non-profit 501(c)(3) social service organization established in 1969 to serve and advocate for people currently and previously involved in the criminal justice system, youth at-risk, people with disabilities, people dealing with long term care needs and people who are homeless. More than 10,000 people a year come to LMM for life-changing help, yet LMM does not have enough space for private conversation and intake, counseling and workshops. LMM advocates with people with disabilities, yet they occupy a building that is largely inaccessible, affecting those who are served, volunteer, and work there. LMM is establishing the new 46,774 s.f. Richard Sering Center to more fully serve marginalized people, locate and expand services closer to those who need them, and invest in the infrastructure of Cleveland. A larger, fully accessible facility is needed to fulfill LMM’s mission of service and advocacy and to strengthen their capacity to respond to community needs. The board of LMM determined that now is the time to own an accessible, energy-efficient building rather than continue to lease a crowded, inaccessible, inefficient one.

Development Newssculptor opens new gallery and artist-representation firm in historic carnegie buildingThursday, September 20, 2012

Giancarlo Calicchia, the Italian-born sculptor and artist who has been a fixture in the Cleveland art scene for decades, is opening a new gallery and offices in a historic, restored building at 4600 Carnegie Avenue in the Midtown neighborhood.

Calicchia still owns a large building at 6550 Carnegie Avenue, where his studio is currently located. However, he may be selling it to Fred Geis, who is developing space for high-tech and biomedical companies along the Health-Tech Corridor.

The building at 4600 Carnegie will soon become home to Artisan Direct, a company that represents over 1,000 artists from around the world. Artisan Direct helps artists to market, show and sell their original work to a diverse audience. Previously, the company was headquartered in Rochester, New York.