Sitting at Nuremberg, Germany
9th August to 21st August 1946

A. Yes, that is just what I wanted to find out. This decree
has nothing whatsoever to do with experiments. It begins
with the following - I shall translate it freely, I do not
know the language too well.

"A planned co-ordination is necessary for the personnel
and material in the field of health and in the whole
Medical Inspectorate. I therefore decree as follows ... "

The decree created the post of the Chief of the Medical
Department - I no longer know the exact title - in order to
solve the shortage of medical officers and of medical
supplies - that is especially emphasized here - and, of
course, if necessary to carry out joint research work.

What we did in the field of research, especially during the
war, is, of course, quite clear. Since the Army was
providing the bulk of the medical officers and was receiving
the largest amount of medicines and material, the Sanitary
Inspector was put at the head of the department. Since the
Air Force was the second largest branch of the Wehrmacht the
Luftwaffe Chief of Staff was chosen. That is quite
understandable.

Q. The point that I am putting to you, and I think you have
gathered it, is that on 28th July, 1942, there was this
additional interest in medical matters and research which
made Hitler assemble this co-ordinating staff. Now, I want
you just to remember how that interest in medical matters
was shown in your service. A month later, on 31st August,
1942, your second man, Milch, was writing to Himmler. My
Lord, this is Document 343-PS, Exhibit USA 463.

"Dear Herr Himmler: I thank you very much for your letter
of 25th August. I have read with great interest the
reports of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. I am informed
about the current experiments. I shall ask the

[Page 283]

two gentlemen to give a lecture, combined with the
showing of films, to my men in the near future."

Now, assume that Milch is telling the truth for the purpose
of this question, and that that letter was put in front of
him by the head of your medical department for his
signature, assume that if you like, there is no reason to
suppose that the head of your medical department was telling
lies in the letter he put before Milch; no reason to assume
that that letter is untrue and if, in your service, lectures
were given on these experiments with films to the men, are
you still telling the Tribunal that you, as the head of the
service, knew nothing about these experiments for your
service that were going on?

A. I am telling the Tribunal only the truth. Firstly, this
letter need not by any means have been submitted to Milch by
the Sanitary Inspectorate just because it was a direct
letter between Himmler and Milch. Secondly, while he was in
the witness stand here, Milch -

Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. I am only quoting Milch's
evidence. I was asking you to assume for the moment that
Milch's evidence is true. It was suggested to Milch that his
evidence was not true and the truth was that you said it was
his own letter. I am asking you to assume that Milch is
telling the truth; this is the letter put before him by the
sanitary department. That is why I put it that way. Now,
continue your answer.

A. I am afraid I did not understand you quite clearly. Did
you read me a letter from Field-Marshal Milch or did you
read the testimony which Milch gave here. The translation
did not make that quite clear.

Q. I read to you a quotation from a letter of Field-Marshal
Milch to Himmler. And I informed you, in case you did not
remember, that Field-Marshal Milch - that that letter was
put in front of him by your medical department and that he
signed it blindly. That was Milch's evidence. I asked you to
assume that Milch was telling the truth. I mean for the
moment. I am asking you, as head of your service, if these
experiments were the subject of lectures and films shown to
your own men serving under your command? Are you still
telling the Tribunal that you knew nothing about them?

A. I said quite clearly and plainly that I myself knew
nothing about them. I did not say that Field-Marshal Milch
had made an untruthful statement. After all he must know
whether the letter was submitted to him by the Inspectorate
or not; as far as I recall his testimony here on the witness
stand, he cleared up this matter completely and emphasized
that he made no report whatever to me about the details of
these experiments.

But, Sir David, may I once more direct your attention to
this decree. I have meanwhile glanced through the whole of
it. It has nothing at all to do with these experiments but,
as I said earlier, Part one deals with the medical
departments of the three Wehrmacht branches and Part two
deals with the relation of the Army and civil medical
welfare systems from a purely organisational and
administrative point of view.

Q. Witness, I just passed the decree, you know. I want your
answer. Do you say that you did not know that lectures and
films were shown to the men under your command, dealing with
these experiments? I just want your answer quite clearly -
yes or no. Did you or did you not know?

A. No, I knew nothing about that. May I ask you once more to
take into consideration that the Ministry was an
administration of its own, whereas I, at headquarters, dealt
rather with strategic and tactical matters. I would have
objected to such experiments - certainly; even though the
Russian prosecution. I believe, at one time twisted the
facts, I adhere to what I said. In 1934 I strictly forbade
experiments and tortures to be carried out on living
animals; please do not suggest that I would have permitted
them to be carried out on human beings.

[Page 284]

Q. It is not for me to comment. Plenty of people have
standards with regard to animals which they do not apply to
fellow men. But that is a matter of comment and I do not
wish to pursue it.

Now, in November, 1942 - you referred to it in giving your
evidence - Dr. Rascher was transferred from the Air Force to
the SS. Before he was transferred, Himmler wrote to Milch on
that subject after describing the experiments on the
behaviour of the human organism at great heights, in
prolonged cooling and similar problems. I quote Himmler's
words, which are of vital importance to the Air Force in
particular:

"These researches which deal with the behaviour of the
human organism at great heights, as well as with
manifestations caused by prolonged cooling of the human
body in cold water, and similar problems which are of
vital importance to the Air Force in particular."

Then he says:

"Unfortunately you had no time recently when Dr. Rascher
wanted to report on the experiments at the Ministry for
Air. I had put great hopes in that report because I
believe that in this way the difficulties based mainly on
religious objections which opposed Dr. Rascher's
experiments, for which I have assumed responsibility,
could be eliminated. The difficulties are still the same
now as before. In these Christian medical circles the
standpoint is being taken that it goes without saying
that a young German aviator should be allowed to risk his
life, but that the life of a criminal who is not drafted
into military service is too sacred for this purpose and
one should not burden oneself with this guilt."

Then Himmler goes on to say - in view of the importance to
the Air Force and also to the Waffen SS, "However, in this
connection, I suggest that with the liaison between you and
Wolff," that is, Milch and Wolff, "a non-Christian physician
should be charged who would, at the same time, be informed
of the results."

Are you saying, defendant, that you never heard, although
Hitler had heard, that Christian medical circles were
protesting against these experiments?

A. I think you mean Himmler, not Hitler.

Q. Himmler, I am sorry. Although Himmler knew, you say you
did not know that Christian medical circles were apparently,
according to this letter, publicly and insistently
protesting against these experiments? Did you not know that?

A. No, and they did not protest publicly. But I am very
grateful to you for having brought up this letter which I no
longer remembered among the many documents which have been
submitted to me. It underlines clearly and unmistakably what
I said before, and I am happy that by the Christian medical
officers who are mentioned here the Inspectorate of my
Luftwaffe is apparently meant, because only the Inspectorate
could raise protests. And that is also the reason why this
Rascher had apparently to leave the Air Force as his
collaboration with the Inspectorate no longer satisfied Herr
Himmler; and therefore he transferred him to the SS. That
emphasises exactly what I said.

Q. I want you - again, I want you to apply your mind to
this. You and Himmler were still on good terms in 1942, were
you not?

A. Until the end, Himmler always adopted a very polite
attitude towards me. He had no choice.

Q. You were more than that. Within a few days of this letter
you sent him an attache-case of crocodile leather, a box of
cigars, and a notebook for Christmas. This means that you
were on good terms with Himmler at this time. Do you mean to
say that you never heard, that Himmler never said to you,
that Milch never told you, that your medical officer never
said to you, that these experiments were being carried on
and were causing protest in Christian medical circles? Did
everyone conspire, defendant, to keep you in ignorance of
every matter that might be embarrassing to you? Now, is that
the answer?

[Page 285]

A. The experiments and knowledge of them have nothing to do
with the crocodile attache-case and the notebook. These are
Christmas presents in return for a present which Himmler
always gave me for Christmas on behalf of the SS, and I
always wanted to respond to this gesture. Secondly, no
attempts were made to hide anything from me intentionally,
but the various spheres of activity were divided; there were
important matters, very important matters, and matters which
were treated by certain departments, and the Medical
Inspectorate was one of them. It was impossible to bring
everything to my knowledge.

Apart from that, I wish to emphasize again that I never
heard of a public protest by Christian circles or doctors in
Germany against such experiments during the war and such a
protest would not, in fact, have been possible.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions to put, Dr. Stahmer?

DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can return to the dock.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik.

DR. GAWLIK (for the SD): Your Lordship, may I first of all
apologise for my failure to be ready for the submission of
my documents yesterday. I regret that this resulted in a
delay of the proceedings, but the defence counsel of the
organizations were informed that the sequence for the
submission of documents would be different from that of the
examination of witnesses, and the sequence of which we were
informed was the following: Political Leaders, Gestapo, SS,
and SD. I therefore assumed that I would follow the SS with
the submission of documents. I ask the Tribunal to take into
consideration that I am at present preparing my final speech
and that I am therefore not able to participate in all the
sessions.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that you are not able now to
participate in the session?

DR. GAWLIK: Now I am ready, your Lordship.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not know how any such misunderstanding
as you indicate can have occurred, because no order was
given by the Tribunal that there would be any alteration of
the order, and counsel for the defendants and the defendant
organizations must understand that they must be here when
their case is called on, and the Tribunal cannot be kept
waiting as it was yesterday. This is the first occasion on
which it has happened, and the Tribunal hopes it will not
happen again.

DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, it is a notice dated 1st August
which is posted on the blackboard in the counsel's room.

THE PRESIDENT: Just what does it say?

DR. GAWLIK: It says that for the examination of witnesses,
the sequence was altered and the SD witnesses were heard
before the SS witnesses, but that for the submission of
documents and the final speeches the old sequence will be
followed, and then the sequence is quoted: Political
Leaders, Gestapo, SS and SD.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will inquire into that matter.

DR. GAWLIK: First of all, may I submit the records with
regard to the witnesses I have examined. I shall now begin
with the submission of affidavits. On account of the
pressure of work in the Translating Division, only some of
the affidavits have so far been translated. I request that
those affidavits -

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, as you were not present the other
day, perhaps I had better tell you what the Tribunal's
wishes were and are with reference to these affidavits.

[Page 286]

A large number of these affidavits, if not all, have been
summarised and the summaries set out in the transcript
before the Commissioners, and, therefore, for you to give a
summary again of these affidavits merely creates on the
transcript of the Tribunal a repetition of the summary which
is already in the transcript before the Commissioners. The
Tribunal does not desire that. Therefore, if you will
confine yourself to commenting on or summarising the
affidavits which have not been summarised before the
Commissioners, that is all that is necessary, subject, of
course, to offering them in evidence.

Is that clear? I was not suggesting that you should bring
before us affidavits which have not been brought before the
Commissioners, but I was merely telling you that we do not
want to have a repetition of summaries, which were put
before the Commissioners and which are set out in the
transcript before the Commissioners.

DR. GAWLIK: That was not my intention, your Lordship. I have
only asked for some of these affidavits to be translated,
and I was going to submit only those completely translated;
but of those which I wanted to submit I have received only a
part fully translated. Therefore I cannot at this moment
submit the translation of all the affidavits I propose to
use, and so I request that I may submit some of them later.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Before you begin, this will be a
convenient time to break off.

DR. GAWLIK: Very well.

(A recess was taken.)

DR. GAWLIK: I shall present my affidavits in order of the
points of the Indictment, as they appear in the Trial Brief
against the Gestapo and SD; that, I believe, would be of aid
to the Tribunal. This order will not agree with the sequence
of the numbers, but I believe that can be taken into
account, because this method will enable the Tribunal to see
that I have endeavoured not to present cumulative evidence.

First, I come to the point of conspiracy, to the tasks, aims
and activities of the SD from its foundation to the
establishment of the RSHA. On this point I submitted
Affidavit SD-27 by Dr. Albert; a summary appears in the
transcript of 23rd July, 1946.

The next affidavit refers to the assertion of the
prosecution that it was a task of the SD to obtain secret
information on actual and possible opponents of the Nazis.
The reference is the Trial Brief against the Gestapo and SD,
statement of evidence IIIb, Page 77 of the English version.
In this connection I submitted Affidavit SD-28 by Dr.
Albert; the summary of the contents is also shown in the
records of the Commission, on the 23rd July, 1946.

Then on this point also I now submit Affidavit SD No. 1, by
Ferdinand Sackmann.

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