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So what? Iris still would've won if D-nite listened to her. The power of that beast is there whether it listens or not. It would've been great if it listened to Iris, but the writers were establishing a story.

Owww.. So now they were establishing a story???

Honestly, back during that arc, I saw EVERYBODY whine about how they were giving Iris wins, and glorifying her and blablabla, and there I was yet again defending Iris (though not Staning) and that the battles will only have a bad backlash effect on her (proven by Georgia's quote), and that it was probably going to fall in battle against Ash and that it would be great if Drayden got involved in all of this.. etc.. Yet nobody wanted to hear that at that point in time..

But what do we have here! :P

Answer to all the bad things in the world: Give up on trying to make everything better. Hence, accepting it for what it is. YOLO! <- Click the link and daw.. -.-

Charzaird was obidient for no reason, there was no story behind it.. No focus was put on it before the OI episode. Dragonite got 2 episode dedicated to Iris talking to Dragonite along with Cynthia. What did Ash do before the Blaine battle? Nothing. He did nothing expect send Charzaird out to battle because Charzaird had a little rivalry with Magamar.

Apart from the fact that ALMOST ALL of the below post (not just the words I left in the box)....

Originally Posted by PAndrews

You're kidding right.

...is relevant and gives logical enough explanations to all the questions posed in your rant, consider this difference:

two people live in your house. One is a stranger who came in off the street as a grown man. The other is your son, who youve seen grow up, as a baby, then a child, then a teenager and now a man.

They are both messy, and have all sorts of disobedient habits around your home.

And that is the difference between Dragonite and ones like Charizard and Mamoswine. Saying the latter two DIDNT get developed whilst the former DID? Mamoswine and Charizard were given stories in which they grew from obedient babies into grown nasty slobs; perhaps nowadays the Charizard plot would have been written better but at least that growth cycle played out on screen, making them relatable Pokemon. But Dragonite came into the story as an old man off the street, with its bad habits, and hence why the character doesnt endear itself to viewers.

I dont think you need to keep viewing this as anti Iris persecution.

ON TOPIC: I dont think disobedience is relevant for whether a Pokemon should be DQed. In play battles out in the wild, disobedience or anger plays out badly, like that Dragonite guarding the shrine in Johto, but in organised tournaments? I think its an unnecessary complication for a childrens show.

Apart from the fact that ALMOST ALL of the below post (not just the words I left in the box)....

...is relevant and gives logical enough explanations to all the questions posed in your rant, consider this difference:

two people live in your house. One is a stranger who came in off the street as a grown man. The other is your son, who youve seen grow up, as a baby, then a child, then a teenager and now a man.

They are both messy, and have all sorts of disobedient habits around your home.

And that is the difference between Dragonite and ones like Charizard and Mamoswine. Saying the latter two DIDNT get developed whilst the former DID? Mamoswine and Charizard were given stories in which they grew from obedient babies into grown nasty slobs; perhaps nowadays the Charizard plot would have been written better but at least that growth cycle played out on screen, making them relatable Pokemon. But Dragonite came into the story as an old man off the street, with its bad habits, and hence why the character doesnt endear itself to viewers.

I dont think you need to keep viewing this as anti Iris persecution.

ON TOPIC: I dont think disobedience is relevant for whether a Pokemon should be DQed. In play battles out in the wild, disobedience or anger plays out badly, like that Dragonite guarding the shrine in Johto, but in organised tournaments? I think its an unnecessary complication for a childrens show.

This has nothing to do with "anti Iris persecution" this is about disobedient Pokemon in official battles. Iris is the best example in this case.

Charizard got disqualified for not listening in an official tournament, which makes perfect sense
Mamoswine didn't win (or even enter) any official competitions until it listened.
Dragonite got 2 wins in an official tournament despite not listening and everyone ignored the fact that it endangered every spectator there. Thats the key difference in the 3

The other disobedient Pokemon cost the trainers dearly or weren't in official battles. In all honesty Charizard annoyed the hell out of me in the day. It viewed Ash as weak and didn't listen. Ash responded by whining at it every time with his "please listen" instead of being a man and saying he was tired of this nonsense. He's viewed as weak and unworthy to train Charizard, so responding as a weak crybaby just gives Charizard more reason not to listen. I'm glad all Charizard did in the League was get disqualified, since any win would feel very cheap and unearned on Ash's part. That made sense, there should be consequences and risks in using a Pokemon that doesn't listen. Not have it stomp its way through a tournament while completely ignoring its trainer, but the trainer does get the wins (doesn't matter who this is, it makes no sense)

The problem here is whether a disbodient Pokemon should be allowed in an official tournament. The answer is an obvious no.
Tournaments are meant to show the trainers skill, nothing more, nothing less. If the trainer can't control the Pokemon, he/she has no place in that tournament.

"14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

That made sense, there should be consequences and risks in using a Pokemon that doesn't listen. Not have it stomp its way through a tournament while completely ignoring its trainer, but the trainer does get the wins (doesn't matter who this is, it makes no sense)

The problem here is whether a disbodient Pokemon should be allowed in an official tournament. The answer is an obvious no.
Tournaments are meant to show the trainers skill, nothing more, nothing less. If the trainer can't control the Pokemon, he/she has no place in that tournament.

I actually agreed with all your post except for the bit about disqualification being necessary. The 'Iris persecution' comment was levelled at ConUxie, not you.

If we assume tournaments show a trainers skill ONLY, as you propose, then shouldnt they be congratulated and allowed to compete with a disobedient Pokemon merely on the basis it follows them? Remember the point when Ashs Pikachu kept flicking a Pokeball at him then sat on a tree ignoring him.

I know you dont like the idea of the Pokemon getting the wins, not the trainer, but once it steps on the field, Im not bothered that they are allowed to compete. The risks and consequences should be a burden on the trainer, not the tournament organiser. Dragonite might have decided to sleep, but it didnt. Iris took a risk that paid off. Conversely, the writers had Ash put his faith in Charizard. The writers could have made Sparky zap Charizard, sending it beserk and getting Ash a win. So Ash makes that gamble. It didnt pay off.

But by allowing disobedient Pokemon to compete officially, the writers show us character development for the trainer, the ability to show trust, faith and good judgement.

Originally Posted by matt0044

Ah, the whole "it's for kids" copout. Never gets old...

OK then, forget the 'its for kids' bit. Its an unnecessary complication for a show outright

We won't even have to speculate on it because it actually happened before. In " Crusin' for a Brusin' " we saw the Judges stop the match against May even though Bulbasaur could still fight. It's not only the official's job to keep score. They have to make sure that all the Trainers and Pokemon play fair so no one gets hurt.

That's a great point to make in here. It seems like people forgot about that match. But I think that if poor May could have got a scolding I don't see why Dragonite couldn't have. But I guess I should be fair here. AG was better writen.

They should be disqualified for the safety of the trainers and the audience, but since anime won't show a rampaging pokemon attacking humans during a tournament, mostly for the sake of children, it seems like not gonna happen.

reading this i remembered how Squirtle lost against Ritchie's Butterfree, it was so unfair, was sleep powder a OHKO move in Kanto?

Depending the case. After all, some Pokémon may suddenly wake up and fight normally. But when, like tell before, Tyson's Meowth attacks an inoffensive Persian just for a bad experience... Or a sleeping Charizard, that could disqualify. Because, seriously, sometimes, it's annoying. Trainers are here to battle, not to sleep.

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Disqualifying a disobedient Pokémon is the minor of the things about that kind of ... committee, I mean ... we are talking about a committee that:
- Aren´t aware about the competitors and let everyone takes part in a disguise (James as Jessielina and that princess girl as Dawn)
- They don´t have control about the prizes they give (Jessie´s last illegal ribbon that she didn´t earned)
- Meanwhile in Johto you can replace your lost badges, in Kanto, you lose your badges and you´re screwed

Disqualifying a disobedient Pokémon is the minor of the things about that kind of ... committee, I mean ... we are talking about a committee that:
- Aren´t aware about the competitors and let everyone takes part in a disguise (James as Jessielina and that princess girl as Dawn)
- They don´t have control about the prizes they give (Jessie´s last illegal ribbon that she didn´t earned)
- Meanwhile in Johto you can replace your lost badges, in Kanto, you lose your badges and you´re screwed

- Well, we know you have to register yourself and your Pokemon when you enter a competition. Considering that Jessie works for a multi-million dollar criminal organization I wouldn't call it much of a stretch to say that she could forge some documents ... but I don't see why she bothered except for Giovanni possibly flipping channels and stumbling upon her side-gig. Everyone seemed to be aware that Jessie was Jessilina in Sinnoh, As far as Dawn / Princess goes ... she just lied.

- Considering that Gym Leaders can give Badges away like candy so long as they pass inspection this shouldn't be surprising. Paul and Barry's last badges were illegal too by that logic. So were half of Ash's Kanto Badges, his Dynamo Badge, and goodness knows how many he got without actually winning since.

- Technically, you can replace badges stolen from any region. heck, you don't even have to get all your badges in the same year apparently as long as you have eight. Tobias? He probably entered Sinnoh on the Friday before League, earned eight Badges on Saturday faster then Volkner could say " Holy crap! Was that Vincent Valentine on a Darkrai? ", Registered on Sunday, and entered on Monday.

"14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

I feel like disobediant pokemon should be disqualified immediately in official battles. It's true that battling in general is about bonding with a pokemon, but official battles are meant to be the proof of such a bond not the means to obtain that bonding. Someone that fails so hard that they don;t even reallize they don't have a bond with a pokemon before trying to order them about in a official battle should be rediculed and disqualified (it would of done ash good if he had been more embaressed by charizards disobediance and whould of been a great story in and of it's self.).

off topic

wow, when did this hatred of bulbagarden happen? was it there all along and i just didn't notcie or is this a recent thing?

Um why was this thread made again?? You could of just told Sushi to tell the bulbapedia haters to knock it off.

Anyway I think there should be a limit to what the disobedient pokemon can do.

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"14 year old Hilda is a Pokemon Trainer with a secret: she can talk to Pokemon. After setting off into Unova, she gets involved in the affairs of Team Plasma and becomes acquainted with N, a mysterious guy her age. He may possess the exact same abilities as her but his views couldn't be more different. As her team grows in strength, numbers and bonds, Hilda finds a tangled web of mystery weaving around her and a daunting fate that she can't ever turn her back on..."

Only if said disobidience prevents said pokemon from fighting. Dragonite vs mamoswine is acceptable even though I hate that battle with all my being. Dragonite rampaging after being hit by dragon claw. No way in hell.

Only if said disobidience prevents said pokemon from fighting. Dragonite vs mamoswine is acceptable even though I hate that battle with all my being. Dragonite rampaging after being hit by dragon claw. No way in hell.

Aww come on lol, at least Mamowine finally got another ice move out of it.

Proud claimer of Cyndaquil and Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed !!
Also proud claimer of Assassin's Creed 2 the game!!
Just became the proud claimer of the Marvel's Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show ^_^!!!

No. That battle had the most plot armor of any battle of the entire series.

Lol Ash vs Paul would like to meet you.

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I meant BW, but yeah every battle other than the league battle gave paul a plot armor made of diamond 100 feet thick.

Um the 4th gym?? Seriously they handed Ash a gym battle for no reason lol.

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Hello everyone. Just so everyone's clear - this thread has been merged with the old thread. Anyone from this point on that takes it upon themselves to bash/flame Bulbagarden or its members will get infracted with an Intent to Annoy Others infraction, worth 5 pts. That's because not only is it very offtopic, and it violates the specified generalization rule we announced a month or so ago, but it has obviously annoyed the OP so much that he deleted the original thread because of it.

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I think disobedient Pokemon should not be disqualified like during Ash vs. Ritchie, and neither should sleeping Pokemon. A Pokemon should be considered defeated once it's really defeated. A disobedient Pokemon can (even though the chance is small) suddenly obey during a battle, or just battle on its own without listening to its Trainers commands. And a sleeping Pokemon - which can sometimes be caused by disobedience (Charizard) - can wake up before getting defeated.

However, if the disobedient Pokemon causes too much danger, the Pokemon should be retreated to its Poke Ball and considered defeated. But disqualifying a Trainer in a 3 vs. 3 battle because his first Pokemon is disobedient would be unfair.