It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.

You can't call M2 and I "Monday morning Qbs" when both of us said that his value is $6.5 to $8.5 LAST YEAR, when the "market was bad."

This isn't a "some teams get lucky" proposition. Good teams go where the market is weak and get great talent cheap, and have coaches that are smart enough to take advantage of that talent. We could have drafted a starting caliber DE when the DE market was "strong" and got good value. Instead we took a #3 WR, for whatever reason... Poor management...

It was a player's market last year and the Lions paid the going rate that year, that's not overpaying. If they paid it this year it would be, but they were lucky that Avril over valued himself. Good or bad move it's still not over-paying.

There was only two 2nd round DEs taken in 2012 and both were unable to do anything on teams with needs at DE. Vinny Curry even played in the wide-9 for Jim Washburn. Right now Broyles has contributed above or at least equal to the other 2 guys.

I've said before, DEs take time to develop. Like I've said, even Mario Williams took 3 years to get good in the NFL. He was called a bust before he finally broke out.

IMO, the team would be in better position with Vinny Curry than Ryan Broyles. Was Curry hurt last year, or just inactive? I know he didn't play at all in 10 games. That said, everyone knows that Kontz was my guy last year. We would have gotten very average OG play out of him we could have cut Peterman, and we would have been able to cut Dom this year. I like the move because it freed up some $7M over the next two seasons had we made it. To me, that alone makes Kontz the better pick. We could sign a Broyles type of WR for cheaper than that. We would have effectively gotten a 2 for 1 deal my way.

March 19th, 2013, 3:45 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Goodbye Cliff.

conversion02 wrote:

The market is strong for DE depth this year too, are you saying the market is weak with a strong draft class?

I didn't say I liked the $10M deal last year, I said it was fair given the market, maybe a little high. I believe I said $9M per would have been right in the wheelhouse. Looking at the recent deals like the ridiculous deal Charles Johnson got, Avrils market was easily inflated by $1-2M per year because of the recent atrocities. I think everyone thought his play would continue to progress upon last year (though many of us thought he was a product of the system and talent around him). Fortunately, his play regressed and he was sent packing.

I also vividly remember you saying you thought $8M was a good number and wouldn't be upset with, at most $8.5M. Not sure why you're changing your mind now and saying $6.5M. I think everyone would have taken him at $6.5M last year, but get real, it wasn't in the realm of possibility. I'd also like CJ to be at $10M a year too.

Look it up, my number was a range of $6.5-8.5 and I said if he signs for a penny more than $8.5 it's flat out ridiculous. That seems about right given his mediocre year and current $7.5 salary.

You keep spouting off like I agreed with the $10m a year. If you could read, I said it was fair given the market, not that I wanted to sign him for that. What's so hard about understanding that?

Also, I found a thread where you wanted Osi at $6.5-7M per, for 2-3 years with a large amount guaranteed. I'd much rather have avril at $10 than Osi at $7.

Also, from the avril thread, m2k said $9m per. You said $8.5M

wjb wrote:

Class my azz! The guy is holding out and turning down $10 million per for three years, and $20 million guaranteed, and he's worth about $8.5. That's ridiculous.

Where do you "remember" these numbers from? Monday morning...

You said, from this thread

wjb wrote:

My FA wishlist - keep Tulloch, sign Porter, tag and trade Avril, draft Kontz (if Kontz isn't there then we should be able to grab a good DE or LB, or Glenn). I'd rather convert a big CB to play FS than draft Barron, given his coverage skills.

Focusing on just avril, they franchised him like you wanted. They didn't overpay long term for him, like you wanted. Maybe they tried to trade him, you don't know. Tag and trades and very rare. Then, for as much as you complain about tulloch, why did you want him resigned?

It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.

You can't call M2 and I "Monday morning Qbs" when both of us said that his value is $6.5 to $8.5 LAST YEAR, when the "market was bad."

This isn't a "some teams get lucky" proposition. Good teams go where the market is weak and get great talent cheap, and have coaches that are smart enough to take advantage of that talent. We could have drafted a starting caliber DE when the DE market was "strong" and got good value. Instead we took a #3 WR, for whatever reason... Poor management...

It was a player's market last year and the Lions paid the going rate that year, that's not overpaying. If they paid it this year it would be, but they were lucky that Avril over valued himself. Good or bad move it's still not over-paying.

There was only two 2nd round DEs taken in 2012 and both were unable to do anything on teams with needs at DE. Vinny Curry even played in the wide-9 for Jim Washburn. Right now Broyles has contributed above or at least equal to the other 2 guys.

I've said before, DEs take time to develop. Like I've said, even Mario Williams took 3 years to get good in the NFL. He was called a bust before he finally broke out.

IMO, the team would be in better position with Vinny Curry than Ryan Broyles. Was Curry hurt last year, or just inactive? I know he didn't play at all in 10 games. That said, everyone knows that Kontz was my guy last year. We would have gotten very average OG play out of him we could have cut Peterman, and we would have been able to cut Dom this year. I like the move because it freed up some $7M over the next two seasons had we made it. To me, that alone makes Kontz the better pick. We could sign a Broyles type of WR for cheaper than that. We would have effectively gotten a 2 for 1 deal my way.

From what I remember Curry was just inactive. He was not having an easy time adjusting.

Konz was considered below average at OG by most things I read, probably still an improvement over Peterman. The Lions did get Nagy, so they weren't unaware of the need at OG/C and right now Konz really hasn't shown anything Nagy didn't in his 4 starts(except longevity, but I don't think Mayhew knows that word) for the Cowboys. Even without drafting Konz they still saved a ton of money cutting Peterman and slashing Raiola's salary, that's while still getting a very nice 3rd WR. Konz has a higher chance for success than Nagy, but Nagy has shown he could start while he was with the Cowboys.

March 19th, 2013, 4:00 pm

conversion02

RIP Killer

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pmPosts: 10948Location: Sycamore, IL

Re: Goodbye Cliff.

And Atlanta uses a zone blocking scheme, so maybe that hurt or helped his success, or lack thereof, in ATL. I don't know. Only watched 3 ATL games and kept a close eye on him periodically throughout those games, but he did look average at best. Nowhere near as good as Sims.

______________________Draft defense - CB, LB, DT, LB...WR/KR

March 19th, 2013, 4:09 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Goodbye Cliff.

rao wrote:

From what I remember Curry was just inactive. He was not having an easy time adjusting.

Konz was considered below average at OG by most things I read, probably still an improvement over Peterman. The Lions did get Nagy, so they weren't unaware of the need at OG/C and right now Konz really hasn't shown anything Nagy didn't in his 4 starts(except longevity, but I don't think Mayhew knows that word) for the Cowboys. Even without drafting Konz they still saved a ton of money cutting Peterman and slashing Raiola's salary, that's while still getting a very nice 3rd WR. Konz has a higher chance for success than Nagy, but Nagy has shown he could start while he was with the Cowboys.

No RAO, you misunderstand me. I meant that we could have cut Peterman LAST YEAR, and saved his $2.7M, and had him (and Raiola) completely off of the books in 2013. Nagy's longevity is what scares me. I think he's a better OG than Kontz, but not as good of an OC, and he's been injured. Kontz would have added a ton of youth, and versatility to the OL, and saved us a ton of money in the process.

I don't doubt that Nagy "can start" but it sure would be nice to bury him on the depth chart and keep him healthy, or play him at OG. Remember, even with Reiff, Sims is no spring chicken.

From what I remember Curry was just inactive. He was not having an easy time adjusting.

Konz was considered below average at OG by most things I read, probably still an improvement over Peterman. The Lions did get Nagy, so they weren't unaware of the need at OG/C and right now Konz really hasn't shown anything Nagy didn't in his 4 starts(except longevity, but I don't think Mayhew knows that word) for the Cowboys. Even without drafting Konz they still saved a ton of money cutting Peterman and slashing Raiola's salary, that's while still getting a very nice 3rd WR. Konz has a higher chance for success than Nagy, but Nagy has shown he could start while he was with the Cowboys.

No RAO, you misunderstand me. I meant that we could have cut Peterman LAST YEAR, and saved his $2.7M, and had him (and Raiola) completely off of the books in 2013. Nagy's longevity is what scares me. I think he's a better OG than Kontz, but not as good of an OC, and he's been injured. Kontz would have added a ton of youth, and versatility to the OL, and saved us a ton of money in the process.

I don't doubt that Nagy "can start" but it sure would be nice to bury him on the depth chart and keep him healthy, or play him at OG. Remember, even with Reiff, Sims is no spring chicken.

Yeah I understand what you said. I just meant they still got some money off the books this season. It would have been better last season, but they aren't paying the full bill while still having similar options to what you wanted last year.

Sims is only 29 and won't turn 30 until December. As an OG he still has plenty of time left, he could probably go 5 more seasons.

March 19th, 2013, 4:56 pm

JL

Div 1 - Starter

Joined: December 13th, 2005, 2:09 pmPosts: 536

Re: Goodbye Cliff.

wjb21ndtown wrote:

conversion02 wrote:

It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.

You can't call M2 and I "Monday morning Qbs" when both of us said that his value is $6.5 to $8.5 LAST YEAR, when the "market was bad."

This isn't a "some teams get lucky" proposition. Good teams go where the market is weak and get great talent cheap, and have coaches that are smart enough to take advantage of that talent. We could have drafted a starting caliber DE when the DE market was "strong" and got good value. Instead we took a #3 WR, for whatever reason... Poor management...

The problem with you wjb is you're so pathetically blinded by your hatred of Mayhew and the Lions (I REFUSE to call you a "fan") that NOTHING would or will ever make you happy. You live to b!tch, and that's it.

If Avril had gone out and put up a 20-sack season with 3 forced fumbles, 2 returned for TDs - and then walked - I guarantee you would have been in here ripping Mayhew another new one for not having the foresight to get Avril signed to a long-term deal.

In fact, if Mayhew traded, drafted, and signed the best possible 53 players in the NFL to one year contracts for the vet minimum, and the Lions went 19-0 with a Super Bowl blowout win, all you would have to say is how STUPID Mayhew was for not having all of them on multi-year contracts.

That's why your constant negativity is so boorish and sad. You're never happy, often wrong, and when you finally get ONE THING correct, it validates your pathetically sad presence on this fansite - to you at least.

_________________If God isn't a Lions fan, then why is the sky Honolulu Blue?

March 19th, 2013, 5:22 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Goodbye Cliff.

JL wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

conversion02 wrote:

It's not even relevant at this point. Aril had comparisons of the Charles Johnson deal and other absurd deals for DEs that were recent. That $10M a year last year was the going rate, like it or not. Now, with such a crappy market, $10M is way too much. Just like every few years with houses. The market fluctuates. Some years teams get deals, some years the players get deals.

Yes, the lions lucked out, but they weren't idiots last year. I didn't like the offer either and I'm glad he rejected them.

Gotta love the Monday morning QBs around here.

You can't call M2 and I "Monday morning Qbs" when both of us said that his value is $6.5 to $8.5 LAST YEAR, when the "market was bad."

This isn't a "some teams get lucky" proposition. Good teams go where the market is weak and get great talent cheap, and have coaches that are smart enough to take advantage of that talent. We could have drafted a starting caliber DE when the DE market was "strong" and got good value. Instead we took a #3 WR, for whatever reason... Poor management...

The problem with you wjb is you're so pathetically blinded by your hatred of Mayhew and the Lions (I REFUSE to call you a "fan") that NOTHING would or will ever make you happy. You live to b!tch, and that's it.

If Avril had gone out and put up a 20-sack season with 3 forced fumbles, 2 returned for TDs - and then walked - I guarantee you would have been in here ripping Mayhew another new one for not having the foresight to get Avril signed to a long-term deal.

In fact, if Mayhew traded, drafted, and signed the best possible 53 players in the NFL to one year contracts for the vet minimum, and the Lions went 19-0 with a Super Bowl blowout win, all you would have to say is how STUPID Mayhew was for not having all of them on multi-year contracts.

That's why your constant negativity is so boorish and sad. You're never happy, often wrong, and when you finally get ONE THING correct, it validates your pathetically sad presence on this fansite - to you at least.

You couldn't be more wrong. I won't hate Mayhew, I just think he's proven to be a horrible manager. I don't know if there is another team that had a double digit win season, only to be decimated the following season by a manager that quite literally did NOTHING to better the team.

You can't say that I "finally got one thing correct," when I stated that last offseason was perhaps the most important offseason since the 1950s. I stated last year that we needed to bring in several mid-range FAs to fill holes, and I predicted that 2012 could have been a great year for us, IF we filled those holes. I also stated that we needed an impact player with our first round draft pick, and that's proved to be true as well. I've been stating that we need to fix the OL for at least 5 seasons, and I've been right there too. I've stated which players I would draft every year, and IMO we would have been better off had we drafted those players. I also find it hard to argue that we wouldn't be better off with "my guys." Many people on here have come to grips with it and admitted that "my team" would look better than Mayhew's team, but resolve to think that we just need to move forward from here and they hope Mayhew and now Mayhew and Sanders will get it right later on.

I'm not a one-hit wonder, and I called the Avril thing long LONG before it happened. Prior to the draft I was stating that it was a HUGE blunder by Mayhew not having Avril's situation worked out. It was undeniably, and inarguably poor management that Mayhew and Avril were on such different pages with their contract negotiations.

This is Mayhew's team and in 2011 it was fairly respectable, and now it's in shambles. That's on him. What's worse than being in shambles, is the fact that we're cash strapped, and we've mortgaged our future to the hilt. His "mark" on this team is going to be felt for at least two more seasons, and that's if we get rid of him now. He's in over his head and it shows. He needs to go before he ruins this team further.

March 19th, 2013, 5:42 pm

conversion02

RIP Killer

Joined: January 26th, 2005, 9:34 pmPosts: 10948Location: Sycamore, IL

Re: Goodbye Cliff.

Wjb, I posted you FA wish list. The team would not have been a playoff team with that wish list, which included franchising avril. (Keep in mind, i didnt think theyd be a playoff team anyway, as they far, far overachieved in 2011 and should have been around 7-9). Of course everyone wanted avril tagged and traded, but seriously, you knew the odds of that happening were slimmer than slim. The only big thing in there was the tag and trade (2nd rounder at best IMO, which clearing that much cap space and getting rid of an average DE for a 2nd rounder would have been sweeeeeet), which you knew was not likely at all.

So even with your wish list last season, I fail to see how this team would have been much improved. Kontz was about it, and he likely would have had to play RG this year, where he wasn't really heads and shoulders above peterman. I don't see the real improvement. Now, we can discuss mayhew and his draft history and philosphophy, but that's an entirely different can of worms.

And, Tracy porter wasn't worth $4M last year. He was about as bad as Florence was...and he was a few million bones cheaper.