damn, you beat me to this. There are so many similarities it makes my head spin. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even peruse the Link i provided. He's more worried about avoiding questions from BigNumber12 with his 'ugly american' comment, then he is at actually providing ANY kind of evidence to back up his argument.

What people say "nation building doesn't work", they generally are talking about Serbia, Iraq, and Afghanistan -- all countries which we conquered and then "nation-built".

Sure we did. Now run along.

Do you have a different definition that only you are privy to than conquor? We destroyed their military, deployed occupying military forces, destroyed their government, built a new government in our liking, and then left the countries. In Serbia, they elected a new government without Milosovic in charge but the others, we eliminated their entire governments and started from scratch.

Abuse Liability:damn, you beat me to this. There are so many similarities it makes my head spin. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even peruse the Link i provided. He's more worried about avoiding questions from BigNumber12 with his 'ugly american' comment, then he is at actually providing ANY kind of evidence to back up his argument.

Some reason you can't just quote me directly? And what's your beef with me, anyway?

meanmutton:whidbey: meanmutton: whidbey: BigNumber12: The action goes against the custom of some Muslim countries, which considers shoes unclean because they are 'closer to the ground, closer to the devil and farther away from God'.

Grow the fark up, you children.

Yes, they're not people, they're "children" to you. How enlightened of you. This is why nationbuilding fails, BTW.

Worked just fine in Japan and Germany.

It wasn't "nationbuilildng." It was reconstruction of two conquered countries we went to war with.

"Nationbuilding" refers to farking around in a country that didn't attack us, and attempting to tinker with it until we can contain it.

Not even the same thing, though superficially similar.

Germany didn't attack the US; we attacked them.

not technically true. They were at war US allies, the US was duty bound to declare war.

1) This guy is their chief diplomat. Why is it unreasonable to expect him to realize that the particular superstition that has upset him is held by a minority of the world's population, and the person he's speaking to is probably unaware of breaching it? Should we be thrilled that their chief diplomat is playing "insult swap" with someone who's completely unaware that they're even playing?

2) Give me an example of our Head of State doing the equivalent of this.

That's it. If you're so obviously justified, responding without namecalling should be simple for you.

whidbey:meanmutton: Conquered the country, deposed a vile dictator, replaced it with a democratic form of government, stuck around and provided military support to the new democratic government? The only real difference I see is that our military still occupies Germany and Japan but we left Iraq.

Yeah except for the fact that we didn't actually declare or go to war with Iran or Afghanistan. What's more, we set the stage for both fiascos by installing dictators or standing by while other countries installed puppet regimes.

Your comparison is dishonest, and you still making the mistake of thinking "reconstruction" is the same thing. We suck at nationbuilding because we are wrong to do it.

Its not just those that don't learn history that are doomed to repeat it... Its also those that can't recognize when history is repeating itself. Your arguments are vacuous and I have yet to see a single link to anything resembling your definition of nation building or how dissimilar these nationbuilding situations were. I for one am finished discussing these issues with someone who avoids rational thought the way most people avoid rolling around in poison ivy.

Flakeloaf:jaylectricity: The action goes against the custom of some Muslim countries, which considers shoes unclean because they are 'closer to the ground, closer to the devil and farther away from God'.

You ever stop to think that shoes are the only thing that's keeping your souls from being a quarter inch closer to the devil and the ground?

Who's to say his god isn't the earth, and that he was merely showing respect by taking his smelly monkey feet off of it?

1) This guy is their chief diplomat. Why is it unreasonable to expect him to realize that the particular superstition that has upset him is held by a minority of the world's population, and the person he's speaking to is probably unaware of breaching it? Should we be thrilled that their chief diplomat is playing "insult swap" with someone who's completely unaware that they're even playing?

2) Give me an example of our Head of State doing the equivalent of this.

That's it. If you're so obviously justified, responding without namecalling should be simple for you.

Sorry, just don't care for your attitude. So you don't care for this particular insult.

Stop being a jackass about it. You sound like some Republican threatening to bomb Iran into being a democratic nation we can control.

Abuse Liability:Its not just those that don't learn history that are doomed to repeat it... Its also those that can't recognize when history is repeating itself. Your arguments are vacuous and I have yet to see a single link to anything resembling your definition of nation building or how dissimilar these nationbuilding situations were. I for one am finished discussing these issues with someone who avoids rational thought the way most people avoid rolling around in poison ivy.

I don't need to "link" anything. The comparison is ridiculous.

We reconstructed Japan and Germany after a war. We had the help of the Allies to do it. We went to war with them. So did most of the world.

Iraq and Afghanistan were petty police actions where the US called all the shots, and historically played a huge part in terms of clandestine and blatant political manipulation and control. Not even the same thing.

I should take one last parting shot though. It seems that while there is an adequate time between my posts for thought, reflection and a response. Your replies fly out faster than i can refresh my browser indicating either1.) you're incredibly quick-witted and informed or 2.) you're firing out replies because your mindset won't be changed and you're already making your next argument before you even see someone's comment.

I know number 2 is pretty common for Fark in general. Should we entertain the possibility of number 1?

Balls in Email? I told you, I don't have any. I suppose I could go find a random set of berries out there on the internets and send them to you. I hear there's a squirrel running around here with a pair that really are quite impressive. Seems like a lot of work for a glimpse of rodent stones, but hey. Whatever floats your boat.

bobbette:Swedish ambassador did insult his hosts in the meeting. Given that he is a professional diplomat, he farked up.

Would Obama do the same in return? I think more people have a problem with the petty response. While I do believe we should do our best to accommodate others in their homes, mistakes happen and people should be tolerant.

Abuse Liability:I should take one last parting shot though. It seems that while there is an adequate time between my posts for thought, reflection and a response. Your replies fly out faster than i can refresh my browser indicating either1.) you're incredibly quick-witted and informed or 2.) you're firing out replies because your mindset won't be changed and you're already making your next argument before you even see someone's comment.

I know number 2 is pretty common for Fark in general. Should we entertain the possibility of number 1?

No, I will not post them here to placate your desire to argue for argument's sake.

So you're not going to cite evidence to refute me - you're just going to double down with "I'm right, because!"

WhoGAS:Regardless, they keep their superstitions and religion to themselves and I'm fine with them. We visit their house and they have weird rituals, then I'm fine with them. However, they come to my house and expect me to placate their weird rituals, then no, I will not worry about that.

But it's up to the visitor of the house to follow the house rules to maintain peace.

A reasonable adult would assume that their guest (from a different culture) has made an inadvertent mistake, and quietly point it out, after the fact, if it's truly that unbearable. Not respond by blasting their guest with insults. And this guy is supposed to be a professional diplomat, hosting a representative of one of the most tolerant nations on earth. One quick "Hey, just so you know..." would probably have gotten a sincere apology and taught the Swede a useful piece of information.

How can you defend people who treat International Diplomacy with such contempt?

bobbette:Cultural customs are cultural customs, people. It would be rude if someone came to America and picked their nose or scratched their ass while meeting with Obama.

Yes it would, but you wouldn't expect the prsident to furiously pick their nose back, do you?

bobbette:The Swedish ambassador did insult his hosts in the meeting. Given that he is a professional diplomat, he farked up

Nobody is doubting that, but it is still fair to point out this is a stupid insult that makes sitting in a circle comfotably (as well as many other interactions in any modern city) impossible, and that the presidents response was very childish.

BigNumber12:A reasonable adult would assume that their guest (from a different culture) has made an inadvertent mistake, and quietly point it out, after the fact, if it's truly that unbearable. Not respond by blasting their guest with insults. And this guy is supposed to be a professional diplomat, hosting a representative of one of the most tolerant nations on earth. One quick "Hey, just so you know..." would probably have gotten a sincere apology and taught the Swede a useful piece of information.

Protip: Iran is not the US. They aren't going to just jump to what your expectations of what a government should be.

We didn't build the nation, we reconstructed it. HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference.

No, if anybody had read the link, they would be aware we didn't merely reconstuct Japan. We replaced the government and placed a multitude of military (and other) sanctions ensuring our safety and producing a more cohesive, united population in the aftermath of a terrible war. The very definition of nation building. why... do... I... continue... arguing...

And this coming from a culture whose people blow their noses onto the ground before going into a mosque to pray to Allah. No wonder Ahmadinejad was offended. The bottom of the diplomat's shoes were probably covered in snot rockets from the locals spewing their nostril semen all over the place.

/read "Three Cups of Tea"//I know everything there is to know about Islam thanks to one book

whidbey:Abuse Liability: I should take one last parting shot though. It seems that while there is an adequate time between my posts for thought, reflection and a response. Your replies fly out faster than i can refresh my browser indicating either1.) you're incredibly quick-witted and informed or 2.) you're firing out replies because your mindset won't be changed and you're already making your next argument before you even see someone's comment.

I know number 2 is pretty common for Fark in general. Should we entertain the possibility of number 1?

lrn2quotebutton

Dodging the issue again. suprising. See how fast I hammered out that response?