I agree with Catherine. Jesus doesn't condemn them because they are "hirelings" but because do not CARE for the sheep. People belong to the The Good Shepherd (Jesus) and an earthly pastor should represent HIM.

Jhn 10:11-12 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

THIS hireling reminds me of those who preach appealing doctrine, build a large church and continually ask for money which they spend mostly on ostentatious cars and houses for themselves. Do they show concern for the people?

You will find only one case of a priest being hired in the bible.And no cases or any doctrine that says hire a man of God.

Judges 17:9 And Micah said unto him, Whence comest thou? And he said unto him, I [am] a Levite of Bethlehemjudah, and I go to sojourn where I may find [a place].

Judges 17:10 And Micah said unto him, Dwell with me, and be unto me a father and a priest, and I will give thee ten [shekels] of silver by the year, and a suit of apparel, and thy victuals. So the Levite went in.

Judges 17:12 And Micah consecrated the Levite, and the young man became his priest, and was in the house of Micah.

Randy, where do you get the double honor means double salary. There was no such thing as a salary. Can you imagine Paul getting a salary. He worked for a living and told others to work. He refused gifts many times and told others to follow his example. He said he had the right, but refuse to take it. It is similar to having a right to go first in line, but one can give that up. That's what Paul did. Why is it "pastors" almost never preach that teaching of Paul's?

I can't believe my eyes! Paul spoke of those who "ministered once and again to my necessities", the Bible is clear about the women who ministered to Jesus' needs. The Bible says the elders who labor in the Word are worthy of "double honor" - the original language actually referring to double salary.

You need to read the Word - load your heart before you engage your lips in error.

Abraham, Moses, Joshua, the TRUE Prophets, Jesus, HIS Apostles, and Paul TOOK NOTHING from the People as they Ministered GOD'S TRUTH. 1 Cor. 9:14: God allowed that they who Preach the TRUE Gospel should live of the Gospel, BUT (15) I DID NOT... (18) Because MY REWARD IS TO GIVE The Gospel WITHOUT CHARGE, that I ABUSE NOT the Gospel. TRUE Men of GOD will NEVER Make you PAY to hear the TRUTH. The Pay-Per-View FAKERS, however, Always Require MONEY to Peddle their FALSE Protestant PROPAGANDA!

andrea: Malachi 3:6. "For I am the Lord, I do not change." you are right. why do you and millions of christians say he does change and now respects man over truths he says himself. you can't have it both ways. You can't say you must have faith and believe in Jesus Christ and love him with all your heart and then stab him in the back and indulge in every sin of the world. that is hypocrisy and will see you cast out. Not my words. the bible condemns millions who deny truths written there.

Lori - its not about doctrine its about truth - we must all be willing to look at all the truth - for He is truth.This sustains me through any doctrinal dispute. Lord for with you there are no dark places I cannot venture - I have His light and so do you - if you believe He is able.

andrea: there are many things you have said which were false. if you stop condemning others, your heart opens to truth that are worthy of your salvation. for instance. many believe the trinity is one God, false, there are over a hundred verses saying Jesus glorified his father, he prayed to his father, not himself. His fathers work is completed, not his own. on the cross, he cried, Father, why hast thou forsaken me. If you request bible references, I will give them to you. that is how we learn.

lori -you say you have exposed lie after lie - please explain - i will never be able to repent or correct my behaviors if you do not show me my error. When I am mistaken (cult or not) I am held to a higher standard then a message board.It is against God only that I sin.If I offend - I'll apologize to you.If I lied - I repent to God

Jesus does not need to plagerize, He does not need polygamy or lies about a bunch of Indians, He did not mark blacks with the mark of Cain

Ramon, I do not joke about Christian matters,it was the talk of the town and shamefull and embarassing to the congregation. Many left the church over that matter. I don't know if he was sucsessful with the suit but it did happen!

Ashley: My pastor works all day and most evenings at his ministry. Between preparing sermons, counseling, visiting the sick and shut-ins, and other administrative responsibilities, he works way more than 40 hours a week.

There is absolutely no reason why he should not be able to live in the community, not a mansion, but a modest house, and drive a modest car. I have been to his house. It is in a simple working class neighborhood, not full of mansions.

Lori, it is impossible to work full time and also be available 24-7 for anything else. His paid job has to fit into that 24-7 so whilst working for pay he is NOT available to members. Your statement that many pastors "sit in offices three days a week for four hours and give two sermons on Sunday. They don't want to be disturbed in their mansions or on the golf course the rest of the time" is quite insulting the full time (and I really mean FULL time) pastors.

2. Lori, there might be a few like that but that is not the norm where I come from. I don't know any pastors who live in mansions, play golf or who work only 12 hours a week. Some pastors might be paid to work only 12 hours but they'll have a full time job elsewhere to pay their bills. Where do these ideas come from, where is your evidence?

andrea, I have exposed lie after lie you keep writing here using the bible. that is your choice to follow whoever you want. However,it is arrogance and pride on your part to believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. The Holy Spirit is the bearer of truth, not andrea or anyone else on here. when you are standing in front of Jesus Christ to account for every word, action and thought you had in life and are cast out, you have only yourself to blame. there are none so blind as they who will not see.

trish, tell him to get a job so he can afford an apartment and car to travel around. in the meantime,stop trying to profit from the blood of Jesus Christ. many missionaries spend two years of their lives going door to door to teach people about Jesus Christ. they have to find cheap living quarters to live because they are not paid. they don't have cars, but they get everywhere they want to go. ride a bike or walk. show me one verse that says men paid Jesus to teach them and gave him a house and car.

Trish, I served two years as an ordained minister of Jesus Christ on a mission in Tennessee. I wasn't paid one nickel to do it, but I still ate, found a cheap place to live, traveled the entire area of towns or cities to teach others and got to church on sunday without anyone giving me a house or car. where can I sign up to get a free house and car and why work every day. I can sponge off others and get rich at the same time in the name of Jesus Christ. I condemn the bible as false though if I do that.

Lori - you have been brainwashed to believe all Christian churches are an abomination any way. My church has maybe 200 members and it is a full-time job and his congregation wants to pay him.Where as the mormons say they don't have a paid staff. If you ever go to a LDS meeting you will believe there is not a paid staff. It really was boring (not that many prots aren't too). Lori - have you ever been to a Christian church?

Personally, I think that most churches in this country are in big trouble with God. There is so much false teaching,self seeking,NO FRUITS, and really the churches are businesses which mimmic the world in order to keep members. Bottom line is that they are consumed by the almighty dollar and the admiration of men. We are in a process of apostacy and need to be cautious so as not to be decieved.:)

Then include 1 Timothy 5:18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

The word in 1 Peter 5:2-3 lucre in the original Greek is aischrokerdes -- pronounced: ahee-skhrok-er-dace' It translates to given to (greedy of) If it is exorbitant, then yes I have a problem but God never intended us to walk around broke, busted, and disgusted. He provides for our "needs" not our "greeds".

Rita: I personally know thousands of men who work full time as lawyers, doctors, factory workers, managers, bus drivers and every other profession. they also lead their congregations for NO pay and are on call 24-7 for problems members have. You say pastors are full time. Hogwash. many of them sit in offices three days a week for four hours and give two sermons on sunday. they dont' want to be disturbed in their mansions or on the golf course the rest of the time. Fact!

Rita: the bible clearly states in I Peter and Isaiah men lead churches through love for God and NEVER for filty lucre or payment. Any church that says you have to pay a man to preach the gospel is following satan. A true story from my baptist church. When a friend of mine lost her home through fire, she called the pastor. He told her to make an appointment. He only worked twelve hours a week, yet was hired full time. Others stepped in that arn't christian to help her with shelter, clothing and food.

Rita H: Paul became a tent-maker to help support himself,isn't that example enough? A large Pentecostal church here fired their pastor,a few years back.He sued them for $80,000 ,2 years salary, for wrongful dismissal!

If a working man has the ability and sufficient time to also be head of a church and shepherd a flock that would be wonderful. The pay from his job will support his family. However, many churches need and want a full time minister/pastor/shepherd so how is this man going to feed and clothe himself and his family and pay bills and medical expenses etc. if he is not paid by the church?

Lori * after showing the two verses in the bible condemning anyone being paid to lead a church, why would anyone in their right mind continue attending them, especially after knowing the church was formed by man for the greed and benefit of the man or woman running it.*

I agree, but we still need to give the Bishop some financial help (offerings, tithings, etc). Nothing is free in this world, the rent still needs to be paid.

after showing the two verses in the bible condemning anyone being paid to lead a church, why would anyone in their right mind continue attending them, especially after knowing the church was formed by man for the greed and benefit of the man or woman running it. In the Saviors church, women cannot lead congregations as stated plainly in the bible. If I entered a church where a woman led it and was paid. I know immediately it is of satan and leave.

So you keep hireing unsaved preachers only after for money. They care not for anyone but themselves. These wicked men care not for your soul and when things get rough they run leaving the flock behind. And with all the loot you payed them. What can I say, the same thing that I have been saying and warnings.

1 Peter 5:2,3 "Feed the flock of God, which is among you, taking the oversight thereof not by constraint but willingly, not for filthy lucre but of a ready heart. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock." Also Isaiah 45:13 where it states men lead not for price or reward but willingly through their love of God. That is what the bible says. If any man leads a church for payment, that church is not of God. if you deny one verse in the bible, you deny all of it.

If you get your eyes on the person and not on Christ you will be disappointed. I used the Bakker/swaggert fiasco as a way of describing the truth of God's word. How Jesus used 12 men on foot to spread the gospel to the uttermost---how He does not need teleevangelist and does NOT fall off His throne everytime we do! Its all in where you have your eyes.

Adam. I go to a Local Pentecostal Church of God and I love my Bishop. He is truly a great man of God. Our church is growing everyday. Listen, I am not saying the Bishop is God, but He is the leader. Second, The Bishop is not alone. That is why He has the Power to elect other members to be deacons and Presbyters. They are suppose to help their Bishop in many areas of the Cburch business according to the Bible. But The Bishop is second to Christ as Head of the Church. He guides the Sheep.

Adam.#2 Are they corrupt Bishops today? Yes! Many Churches are going down the pit, and sadly, most of the time is their Bishop's fault. Not all Bishops are called by God. God is our leader, but He left His Church with godly man and women who are called to protect it at all cost. We must always follow the Guildlines found in the Bible when we elect Bishops, Deacons, and Presbyters.

1.Oh, a debate, I love debates. First off, I know about 1 Timothy, and it helps me prove my point do you know anybody that fits that description. Cause I've been to many churchs in my time and I can't find anyone.

2.You want to know whta happens to a church or Christian organization run by one man, Jim Backer and Ted Haggert. I dont know about you but those two and many others have only helped in ruining the overall christian testimony. Look I'm not saying all pasters are curupt, I just think people put to much stock in one man to lead them. instead of looking to God for the answers directly

Adam * I dont think a pastor is biblical. I beleive that a group of elders or decons should lead a church. that way they can check and balance each other and no one person should be responsable for finaces or preaching for that matter.*

Adam, The Apostle Paul wrote about Bishops and how they should be elected in 1 Timothy 3. The Bishop is the leader of a local Church not the deacons.

I dont think a pastor is biblical. I beleive that a group of elders or decons should lead a church. that way they can check and balance each other and no one person should be responsable for finaces or preaching for that matter.

The definition of "hireling", man at wages, hired hand, wage-worker.(Strongs guide), The Chief Shepherd is the Lord Jesus Christ(1 Peter 5:4). When a Church hires Pastors, I believe that we as God's people need to be very careful and perhaps do a background check on this Pastor. False hirelings do not care for the sheep. Modern cult leaders actually get rich off the people. In contrast to this, the Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep, and He protects His own.