UK Prosecutor During Trial That Found Preachers Guilty: ‘Jesus Is Only Way to God Cannot Be Truth’

BRISTOL, UK — The U.K. prosecutor who presented the government’s case last week against two preachers who were found guilty today of “intentionally alarming” the public with their open-air preaching had argued before the court that the men’s speech declaring Jesus as the only way “cannot be a truth.”

“To say to someone that Jesus is the only God is not a matter of truth. To the extent that they are saying that the only way to God is through Jesus, that cannot be a truth,” prosecutor Ian Jackson declared, according to a press release issued on Tuesday by the Christian Legal Centre.

He contended that Michael Stockwell and Michael Overd had crossed the line by stating that those not following Christ are on the broad path to destruction.

“[Stockwell preached that] people were on their way to Hell because of their failure to adopt the worldview of Christianity,” Jackson told the court.

“If you are trying to come through Catholicism, through Jehovah Witness, through Mormonism, the Bible says you’re a thief and a liar, and a thief comes to steal and destroy. But Christ came that we may have life,” Stockwell had explained during the outreach.

Jackson said that it was also wrong for the preachers to include homosexuals in a list of sinners that included drunkards and thieves, contending that doing so “must be considered to be abusive and is a criminal matter.”

But attorney Michael Phillips of the Christian Legal Centre noted to the court that the men were simply citing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, which reads, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

The Daily Mail reports that Jackson “told the court some of the statements made by the preachers may have been in the King James Bible, translated in 1611, but that did not mean they were acceptable in 2016.”

As previously reported, Overd and Stockwell, along with Adrian Clark and Don Karns, had been taking turns open air preaching outside of the Bristol shopping center on July 6, as well as engaging passersby in conversation and/or holding gospel signs.

Two of those involved in the evangelism effort, Stockwell and Karns, were American citizens visiting the country to share the gospel. The men allegedly preached on a variety of issues, and took questions from those who stopped to listen—questions that ranged from Islam, Buddhism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuality and other moral and religious issues.

Police state that some became offended by the men’s preaching and/or responses to the questions, as statements reportedly included remarks such as “Allah is the greatest deceiver—that’s in the Koran,” “David Cameron is no more a Christian than my dogs” and that false religion leads men to “the gates and the very depth of Hell.”

An online video shows the moment the men were arrested.

“The purpose of mankind is to worship God and enjoy Him,” declared Overd, who was preaching at the time. “You need to obey God and obey His commands. I hated His commands once and I remember what that mind frame is—it is like banging your head against a brick wall.”

Seconds later, Overd was approached by a police officer, who ordered him to leave the area.

“Look, you are causing a disturbance now,” the officer stated. “You are not welcome.”

“Go home! Go home!” a few men nearby chanted.

The officer warned that if Overd did not stop preaching, he would be arrested.

“For God so loved the world, guys, that He gave His only begotten…” Overd declared, advising that he was not going to leave.

The officer consequently grabbed Overd by the arm while he was speaking and pulled him away. The crowd clapped and cheered enthusiastically.

“There’s a line of freedom of speech,” the officer told Overd. “[I]t’s when you’re causing a disturbance, that is, aggravating people, anti-social behavior, which you were causing.”

“How were we causing it?” Overd asked. “What did we say?”

“People were getting angry. You were challenging [homosexuality]. You were challenging Muslims,” the officer replied.

“But just saying what the Bible says,” Overd noted.

“That’s fine,” the officer said.

“Well, if it’s fine, why are you arresting me?” Overd asked.

Stockwell, Karns and Clark were also arrested, but the charge against Karns was later dropped and the charge against Clark was dismissed last week at trial.

On Tuesday, Justices Robert Stacey, Gerry McDermot and Josephine Ramsden declared Overd and Stockwell guilty of violating the Crime and Disorder Act, which prohibits speech or behavior causing “intentional harassment, alarm or distress” that is “racially or religiously aggravated.” They were fined nearly $2,500 each.

“Men should be able to proclaim the truth and have diverse differences in the public forum, agreeing to disagree without harm or repercussions. Truth today is the new hate,” Stockwell said in a statement following his guilty verdict.

“[I]t is extraordinary that the prosecution, speaking on behalf of the state, could say that the Bible contains abusive words which, when spoken in public, constitute a criminal offense,” also remarked Andrea Williams, who leads the Christian Legal Centre. “Today’s ruling, in effect, states that Bible is offensive and contains illegal speech which should not be shared in public. This is a very serious state of affairs and the men will be considering next steps to challenge this decision.”

Editor’s Note: An earlier version of this story incorporated an image of a U.K. solicitor of the same name, who was found not to be involved in the matter. The photo was amended shortly after posting.

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Charles

“”“To say to someone that Jesus is the only God is not a matter of truth. To the extent that they are saying that the only way to God is through Jesus, that cannot be a truth””..

Well thank you Prosecutor AKA “Mr. Truth”. I’m sure The Lord will not take kindly to your lies…

FHRITP

My money says your Lord WILL take kindly to his statements because your Lord overflows with kindness, forgiveness, and desire to turn the other cheek.

BravesFan

Now that’s funny. I’m guessing you only read selections from the Bible, if that much.

PastProdigal

Your money is wrong. Jesus said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” John 14:6

maranathagen67

Precisely…. there is but ONE way… through the shed blood of the Lamb of Calvary! Any other way is a false substitute originating with Satan. Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. We are all condemned, all guilty, all in need of God’s redeeming grace in Christ. He perished and took the punishment for our sins that we might be set free from the burden and penalty of our transgressions. God could send us all to Hell… He has every right to. But God so loved the world…He is not willing that any should perish but that all might come to salvation through the Cross. We are free to choose. We can accept or reject His offer of mercy and grace. There is a place set aside in Heaven for every one of us, but in the end the decision is left to us. God has provided the perfect gift, the one and only means of salvation. He has lovingly sacrificed His best, His only begotten Son, that we might be pardoned and granted everlasting life. It’s sad to think that some on here will deliberately walk away from the Truth of the Gospel and suffer the consequences of such ignorance and arrogance. Jesus paid it all and all to Him we owe! There is no need of anyone suffering the pangs of eternal Hell when God has made a way of escape so clear and so real. Recently I purchased a couple of items at a Southern Gospel Convention in Florida. One was a T shirt made available by Legacy Five Quartet: “I’m not interested in being politically correct; I’m interested in being Biblically correct”. And my cap says: “One Way – Jesus – The Only Way – John 14:6”. I wore both of those home on our flights to Toronto and Ottawa, overnight at the Ottawa terminal when we were forced because of a blizzard on the east coast to wait it out and then the next day as we were shuffled around by way of Halifax in order to get to our destination in Fredericton early Wed. morning. I sense that now is the time we as believers need to publicly stand up and testify of our faith in the One True God and His Only Way of Salvation in Jesus Christ. Even now the Roman Catholic church is urging the Pope to declare Mary as co-redemptrix because this year is the anniversary of Our Lady of Fatima “miracles”. This is blasphemy and heresy in the highest order. Satan in these last days is very busy in his business of deceiving even the very elect. We need to stand firm and without apology: Jesus is THE Way and THE Truth and THE Life. He alone was crucified for our sins. He alone sits on the right hand of the Father interceding for the saints. He alone is coming back to receive His own, the blood-bought, blood-washed, believers who have sincerely repented and trusted Him as the exclusive solution to the issue of our condemnation as Hell bent transgressors and violators of His will and His way. We who have believed to the saving of our souls alone have that hope! Look up, for your redemption draweth nigh! (Just one other thing: I’m sick of the liberal and left wing media and their colleagues in politics promoting the cause of transgenders and gays, etc. and giving them their blessing! They are WRONG…. VERY WRONG…. and they are serving the Devil!)

troof

When He comes back in “flaming fire taking vengeance upon them that know not God, that obey not the truth” the time for forgiveness is over. God is not the doting grandfather that pop theology has made him out to be.

Chris

And condemning anyone to a torture chamber forever speaks so much of justice doesn’t it?

troof

You willare unaware of your own evil. He gave you life And breath, yet you are so unthankful and have the pride to call God into judgment and obstinately refuse to repent how many years? Surprised you will be that he doesn’t think like you do

Chris

“You are unaware of your own evil.”

I am so evil that I would never, ever condemn anyone to torture. That’s how evil I am. Can you say the same about your concept of God?

“He gave you life And breath,…”

Actually biology and my mother and father gave me life.

“..yet
you are so unthankful …”

Since I am a Zoroastrian I would disagree that I am ungrateful to God.

“…and have the pride to call God into judgment…”

Why not? God is judged many times by the prophets and declared righteous. If they couldn’t have judged God as unrighteous then it was a sham.

“…and
obstinately refuse to repent how many years?”

But since I am a Zoroastrian I do repent when I do the wrong thing. But I also believe that it’s up to me to make recompense.

“Surprised you will be that
he doesn’t think like you do.”

You mean that I’ll be surprised that your conception of God isn’t just? Nope. Not surprised at all.

maranathagen67

Chris, if you were judged guilty and were about to swing from the gallows because of a crime you committed and someone came and offered to take your place and set you free, you would be eternally grateful, wouldn’t you? Well that Someone has received the punishment you deserve as a sinner and is willing to forgive you and negate that sentence so that you might go free. Don’t blame God for condemning souls to Hell…. they were given a chance to avoid it and they refused His offer! Whose fault is that?

Chris

maranathagen67 I think you’ve forgotten some aspects in your analogy.

First I’d be found guilty of thought crimes. Second the sentence would be torture. Third it would be explained that the judge was ready to pardon me but only if his own son was killed. Would I be grateful to the judge? No. I’d think they were all crazy.

“Don’t blame God for condemning souls to Hell…. they were given a
chance to avoid it and they refused His offer! Whose fault is that?”

Since God created hell it is God’s fault. If He wants people to choose his way out then He should provide proof not only that hell exists but that he exists and that his way out exists. He has done none of these things.

maranathagen67

I really think my point was clear and I think you understood it. Unbelief can be a vicious circle, Chris! Denying the Truth won’t change the Truth.

Chris

“Denying the Truth won’t change the Truth.”
Correct. Your conception of God involves children being tortured for eternity for thinking the wrong thoughts. Were I God i would consider such a conception of me an insult yet that is Christian doctrine.

maranathagen67

Chris, you really don’t have much of an understanding of true Christianity, do you…. children being tortured for eternity for thinking wrong thoughts? Where did you get that crazy idea? You don’t make a whole lot of sense. For those of an accountable age and ability to comprehend the simplicity of the gospel, there is a Hell to shun and a Heaven to gain… period! You are not a child, Chris. You understand that God is holy and pure and that He hates sin. Sin has to be punished in one way or another. God has made perfect provision for your eternal well being in offering His Son to pay the penalty for your sin and the sins of the world. And so He offers you a choice and you will make that choice just as the two thieves on either side of Christ on the Cross were compelled to decide: accept or reject God’s forgiveness in the finished work of Christ on that implement of torture and death and His resurrection gaining victory over sin, death, Hell and Satan. He died for your transgressions. You broke God’s laws just like all the rest of us. And we stand condemned in our sins with only one reasonable recourse: to repent and place our undivided trust and hope in the person of Jesus Christ. God will continue to invite you to receive His free gift of pardon. He loves you. Only a fool would turn His offer down. What are you going to do about it, Chris? “There’s room at the Cross for you….”

Chris

“Chris, you really don’t have much of an understanding of true
Christianity, do you….”

I not only was a Christian I also studied theology.

“…children being tortured for eternity for thinking wrong thoughts? Where did you get that crazy idea?”

I got this strange idea from the gospel where Jesus compares hatred with murder.

“You don’t make a whole lot of sense. For those of an accountable age and ability
to comprehend the simplicity of the gospel, there is a Hell to shun and a
Heaven to gain…”

Or torture to avoid and a bribe to gain to put it another way. Not exactly a good thing.

“You are not a child, Chris. You understand that God is holy and pure and that He hates sin.”

Except where torture is concerned. Then it’s ok. So is murder. For example where God tells people to slaughter men, women and children.

“Sin has to be punished in one way or another.”

Why? What gives God the right to judge anyone?

“God has made perfect provision for your eternal well being in offering His Son to pay the penalty for your sin and the sins of the world. ”

Through the use of the immorality of a scapegoat. As I wrote previously. I find such an idea blasphemous.

And then you go on about God loving me. There’s an old joke that goes “knock knock. Who’s there? Jesus, let me in. Why should I let you in? I need to save you. Save me from what? From what I’ll do to you if you don’t let me in.”

That’s not a display of love. That’s abuse.

maranathagen67

“I not only was a Christian I also studied theology.” I think that tells me a whole lot. If you were ever a true blue born again Christian, then your eyes would have been opened to the Truth… the Holy Spirit would be your Teacher and Guide and you truly would have some insight into spiritual matters. As it is the best you can do is to view Christianity from a secular, worldly perspective and in that you will never arrive at the Truth no matter how much theology you pack into your cranium. So if you don’t know Christ in a personal way, then you are evaluating all of this as someone looking in from the outside. You can’t relate or put it together so it makes sense because you are not connected. So you select points of interest that you seemingly can attack and mock the Scriptures and God’s eternal Truths with a purpose of destroying these truths and gaining some kind of self-centered victory that feeds your ego…”hey, it’s all a myth, a fabrication, lies that these weak minded people feed on… they should listen to me… I’ve got the answers! Chris: What is really holding you back from surrendering to God’s leading in your life… salvation, sanctification, His purpose, His will? It’s like a blockage in your heart and if you refuse to recognize it and deal with it, it will eventually deal with you and take you out! That’s not the thinking of a wise individual. You don’t play around with this. You can’t afford to mess with a sovereign God Who has the last say: “Depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity”. Stop playing the role of the Pharisees and Sadduccees and Scribes. They were losers. Where are they now? They had their chance.

Chris

“If you were ever a true blue born again
Christian, then your eyes would have been opened to the Truth… the
Holy Spirit would be your Teacher and Guide and you truly would have
some insight into spiritual matters.”

Your reply tells me a lot. You really can’t even accept the possibility, even the possibility, that someone else could be correct and you wrong. That God could lead someone to a conclusion different to your own.

“As it is the best you can do is to
view Christianity from a secular, worldly perspective and in that you
will never arrive at the Truth no matter how much theology you pack into
your cranium.”

Missed out the part where I was a Christian didn’t you? In any case the courses at uni were concerned with the search for the truth. something you seem to have departed from long ago.

maranathagen67

Jeremiah 29:13… And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
There is still hope, Chris. God is both gracious and patient.
Seek ye the Lord while He may be found; call ye upon Him while He is near.

Chris

All you seem to be engaged in now is asserting more and more emotionally that YOU are correct.

To me this is nothing but ego worship.

maranathagen67

Don’t worry about me… I’m just a sinner saved by grace: “Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me”….simple testimony like every other child of God… I have nothing to boast of except His glory and grace. If I am not correct along with millions of other believers, then I am in hot water and we all will perish in eternal Hell. But the Scriptures are clear. There is one way to peace and joy and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it is through the finished work of our Lord. Check out the testimony of the apostle Paul (Saul before he was saved). He could say with assurance that I know in Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.” Saved and certain! This is no ego trip, Chris. Just a journey of absolute hope built upon a solid Rock that is sure and steadfast in a world that has no anchor or sense of direction. Only He is worthy of worship, Chris….not self, not the church, not the saints, not religious institutions or their rituals, not the Pope, not Mary, not anything that would rob Him of His Lordship and might and power and beauty and wonder and love and grace and mercy. He is everything that is good and godly and He is worthy of our utmost trust and honor. Chris…Christ! You’re not far from the Truth that saves.

Chris

You ask me to check out various portions of the bible. You seem to have forgotten again I studied it at a uni level. I’ve heard all this before and remain unimpressed.

The rest is just you saying what you believe. Well how nice for you but I don’t share it.
You describe such a position as humility. Believing whatever you’re told isn’t humility.
The fact is all you have are hearsay testimony. Such testimony wouldn’t be admitted to a law court so why should I take any notice?

maranathagen67

I understand you studied theology at some university. Question: what did they teach you? It may have been conservative or liberal in their approach. There are those who are faithful to the teaching of the Word of God and then there are those like Princeton and Harvard who have apostatized. If you were to attend any of the schools associated with say the United Church of Canada or the liberal denominations in the USA, then essentially you were introduced to a lot of heresies. When we have lesbians and gays standing behind the pulpits of our churches, there is something critically wrong with that picture. How can they preach God’s Word as truth when they clearly deny it in their choice of life style. Lots of wolves in sheep’s clothing in our generation. When you oppose the Word then you automatically oppose the Author, God. Chris, there are lots of well researched books and texts that could very well be used in a court of law to defend the authenticity and truth of the Scriptures. I challenge you to read some of them with an unbiased approach. Check out books by Lee Strobel. There are lots of skeptics and doubting Thomas’s who have emphatically denied that the Word of God has any relevancy for our day and yet their lives were dramatically changed by the power of the living Word when they did their homework and came to dynamic faith in Christ through their research. Their intention was to prove the Book wrong… a compilation of myths and stories that wouldn’t stand the test of a critical examination. How surprised they were when their assumptions all fell apart under the scrutiny of a careful study of the inspired pages of holy writ. If anyone is serious about knowing the Truth, God will reveal Himself to them. If not, they will continue on in the darkness of their imaginations refusing to accept what has been believed and trusted and proven by the masses over the ages since God revealed Himself in creation. Chris, you’re missing out. But in the end it has to be your choice.

Chris

“Question: what did they teach you? It may have been conservative or
liberal in their approach.”

Answer: Neither. They taught doctrines such as the atonement. I would then be set to research how the atonement was understood through the history of Christianity.

“There are those who are faithful to the
teaching of the Word of God and then there are those like Princeton and
Harvard who have apostatized.”

Yes because only the fundies have it right. Trouble is which denomination of fundies?

“If you were to attend any of the schools
associated with say the United Church of Canada or the liberal
denominations in the USA, then essentially you were introduced to a lot
of heresies.”

I don’t think you understand how a discipline is taught at the university level. The job of the professor is to present as many views on a particular point of the discipline as well as the evidence for same. The professor may be liberal or conservative in their theology but that shouldn’t affect the theology taught.

“When we have lesbians and gays standing behind the pulpits
of our churches, there is something critically wrong with that picture.”

Perhaps because some people can’t accept gays and lesbians as human beings. Fifty years ago you would have said the same thing about having a black minister behind the pulpit.

“Check out books by Lee Strobel.”

read him. He’s the best presenter of half truths I’ve ever read. For instance when he raises a point about Christianity he only ever goes to evangelical scholars. Even when he’s discussing liberal Christianity he only goes to evangelical scholars. If he were interested in portraying the truth he’d be presenting the views of more than evangelicals.

“There are lots of skeptics and doubting Thomas’s who have emphatically
denied that the Word of God has any relevancy for our day and yet their
lives were dramatically changed by the power of the living Word when
they did their homework and came to dynamic faith in Christ through
their research.”

Correction there are a lot of people who claim they’ve changed because of that and made a LOT of money off their claim – like Lee Strobel.

“Their intention was to prove the Book wrong… a
compilation of myths and stories that wouldn’t stand the test of a
critical examination.”

You do know that proving there are myths in the bible wouldn’t prove it wrong don’t you? It would only prove fundie Christians wrong. Not the same thing.

Chris

“There are lots of skeptics and doubting Thomas’s who have emphatically denied that the Word of God has any relevancy for our day and yet their lives were dramatically changed by the power of the living Word when they did their homework and came to dynamic faith in Christ through their research”

And there are twice as many who were trying to support and strengthen their faith who studied the bible and ended up destroying their faith. Go to the site ExChristians and read there story for yourself.

Please no dismissive remarks like “they weren’t ‘true’ Christians” or “they didn’t really understand the bible” or “they were just deceived by the devil.”

Edwin Masters

Depends on the crime, doesn’t it? Even more, God’s justice has allowed a substitute if one will repent and believe the gospel. Rather, man shakes his fist at God, presuming to sit in judgement of Him as unrighteous. Good luck with that.

Chris

“Depends on the crime, doesn’t it?”

No it really doesn’t. If anyone was tortured to death for ANY reason the society that allowed such a thing would be considered barbaric.

But God is supposed to send people to hell for thought crimes – they were merely tempted to do the wrong thing – little kids for having told a lie and so on.

“Even more, God’s justice has allowed a
substitute if one will repent and believe the gospel.”

And who created hell in the first place? God. Who condemns us to hell for eternity? God. Who could just forgive us without all this torture? God.

Such a belief, I would argue, is rather blasphemous yet this IS Christian doctrine.

“Rather, man
shakes his fist at God, presuming to sit in judgement of Him as
unrighteous. Good luck with that.”

Sit in judgement on God? You mean how the prophets did when they declared God righteous? If they didn’t have a right to find God unrighteous after examining the evidence then their judgement was nothing but a sham.

InTheChurch

He needs to read the red letters in the Bible and he will get his answer.

ironnat

As Americans we are somewhat more sensitive to the freedom of speech we enjoy being restricted. I know that there are times when it is restricted, when faith becomes a factor in a government setting. That being said, whether it is Black Lives Matter, Women’ Marches, or the March for Life, we honor our citizens right to free speech. I have seen numerous instances where this is not so in Western Europe.

FHRITP

Oy. More sensitive than what group specifically please, Iron? Whereas some western European countrys’ freedoms of speech are arguably prohibitive, do you know where the U.S. ranks worldwide on how free our speech is compared with other countries? Didn’t think so.

ironnat

Apparently you don’t either or you would have included that info in your reply.

Sean

I guess you dont know either. For starters not one pastor has been arrested in the Stated for preaching, but in the UK that is not the case. So, unless you can show some proof that the US is worse, you are just looking to argue.

maranathagen67

The Mayor of Houston, (a practicing lesbian?) tried to have pastors arrested if they refused to hand over their sermon notes. But the attempt failed. Which signifies that we may be nearing that point when we who attest to the Biblical Truth that Jesus is the ONLY way are singled out for prosecution. The world sees a united religion as the answer to many of our woes. And the false prophet will arise (probably already here) to take authority over that religious institution and to pronounce that anyone who takes a narrow view such as Bible-based, born again evangelicals will not be welcome and will very likely become martyrs to their faith. Many will already have escaped the Tribulation Period through the Rapture. But there will be thousands converted during that time through the witness of the 144,000 sealed evangelists of Revelation. Under the unrelenting suffering and diabolical rule of the Antichrist and the False Prophet, it will not be a nice time for those who bow the knee to their Savior and Lord Jesus Christ.

Chris

To quote snopes “Houston Mayor Annise Parker subsequently maintained, through a city
spokeswoman, that the subpoenas had been issued by pro bono attorneys
working with the city, that

neither she nor the City Attorney was aware the subpoenas had been
issued until after the fact, and that the city would be narrowing the
scope of those subpoenas:”

And “City Attorney Feldman later maintained that the city’s intent was not to
challenge the churches’ tax-exempt status for engaging in political
activities, but rather to prove that pastors involved in the repeal
referendum “knew the city’s rigorous charter rules but failed to follow
them”:”

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

And when other ‘religions’ state their truths, they gonna take them to court as well? I very much doubt it.

sammy

There is only one truth.

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

Yes there is

Kevin Doherty

TRUE words!

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes, the humanists single out only the Bible-believing Christians.

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

Blessed are those who are persecuted for My Name’s Sake!!!

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes, but they hurt children and the defenseless, not just the Christians. Crimes against humanity must not be overlooked in any free nation. The Church must teach the truth. Freedom was established for declaring the truth and living it out.

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

No ma’am those crimes shouldn’t be overlooked either. This song came to mind just now:

t’s crowded in worship today

As she slips in trying to fade into the faces

The girls teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know

Farther than they know

But if we are the body

Why aren’t His arms reaching?

Why aren’t His hands healing?

Why aren’t His words teaching?

And if we are the body

Why aren’t His feet going?

Why is His love not showing them there is a way?

There is a way, there is a way

A traveler is far away from home

He sheds his coat and quietly sinks into the back row

The weight of their judgmental glances

Tells him that his chances are better out on the road

But if we are the body

Why aren’t His arms reaching?

Why aren’t His hands healing?

Why aren’t His words teaching?

And if we are the body

Why aren’t His feet going?

Why is…

Etranger

Amen. It is not truth, it is opinion. Finally these disruptive preacher types are getting what they have deserved for years.

Amos Moses

so would you support free speech being curtailed in this country ….. as well as freedom of religion ….. and the 1st Amend. be damned ………

Etranger

Not at all. Free speech – they are allowed to say what they want and then they create a disturbance. You want someone standing outside your business or house quoting the nasty parts of the* Koran all day? Didn’t think so 🙂

*add nasty parts (that is what teh Christians were doing)

Amos Moses

my house is private property ….. so false equivalent …… and i would … if that happened, engage the person and tell them about Christ ……

The first amendment was not designed to protect your fragile feelings. It was designed to harbor free thought. You have two choices if you do not like something you hear. 1.) Ignore it. 2.) Say something back. If you are unable to do either of those things, it makes you a coward. Being “offended” is not a valid third option.

Etranger

Okay – I guess public disturbance laws are all anti-freedom of speech. Btw, your house is private property but unless you are in some fancy gated community (maybe that is likely) the street in front is not private property. Also, these were open air preachers – if you lived downtown they could be right outside your door. I know from experience when I lived in a city and there were preachers outside every day preaching in front of a store front. Their reason? To spread Jesus’ love by protesting against the owners who happened to be lesbian. I did not have fragile feelings. I just liked to be able to open my windows. Oh well. Christian preachers are ass*oles, maybe that is the truth to be found in your comments…

Amos Moses

changes nothing ….. you have no right to silence others because you are offended ………

The first amendment was not designed to protect your fragile feelings. It was designed to harbor free thought. You have two choices if you do not like something you hear. 1.) Ignore it. 2.) Say something back. If you are unable to do either of those things, it makes you a coward. Being “offended” is not a valid third option.

Etranger

Actually, you need to read up on First Amendment law. The way you tell it, I can stand on the street in front your house and spew my hate all day long. That is actually not protected. Being offended is not a third option. Call the police is.

Amos Moses

and the police can do nothing ….. unless it is after a certain hour and noise abatement laws are in effect …….. FAIL ……….

Etranger

Nope. Not as simple as you think. Each state has public disturbance laws and much of what I have described would fall under them. They are not against free speech either. The free speech civil right has more to do with the govt not being able to censor your speech just because they don’t like it. It does not guarantee you can say what you want where and whenever you want.

Amos Moses

yeah … it does ………

Etranger

Okay, then how do you explain public disturbance laws? I think you contradicted your current comment with your previous comment lol.

Etranger

I tried to post a helpful link but it threw me into moderation 🙁 Look up Congressional Research Service Freedom of Speech September 8, 2014. Great document on what freedom of speech means.

Lexical Cannibal

See, it’s funny you say that, because I agree. Also, though, because I definitely remember you commenting on an article about Oklahoma’s blasphemy law–a law very much against the spirit of what you just said–accusing the group trying to get rid of that law of hatred and hypocrisy.

So Free Speech means Christians can say whatever they want, but it’s okay if I go to jail for mocking it? That seems a bit lopsided.

Amos Moses

well you would have to refresh my memory on my comment ….. as i seem to recall ….. i was not for it or against it …… but it is against or has been against the law in numerous state ……. just not enforced …… but if i am wrong …..

Amos Moses

“Oklahoma’s blasphemy law–a law very much against the spirit of what you just said–accusing the group trying to get rid of that law of hatred and hypocrisy.”

accusing them of what they are doing as opposed to advocating for their arrest is not the same thing …… christians get accused of hatred day and night …..

PastProdigal

Christians have to legal right to tell the truth and you have the legal right to mock it.

Each person will receive the reward for their own words one day.

Lexical Cannibal

Christians have to legal right to tell the truth and you have the legal right to mock it.

I’m glad we’re mostly on the same page here.

Each person will receive the reward for their own words one day.

Though I could do without the cosmic threats, veiled as they are.

PastProdigal

You just think they’re, “nasty parts” because you don’t want to believe they’re true. You want to remain in your sin.

Etranger

You don’t know anything about my sin. I do know of yours however – judging others!

Sean

Judging others is not a sin. Maybe if you read the Bible you would understand that.

Etranger

Sure it is. But more importantly, PastProdigal is in no position to tell me that I want to remain in my sin. He needs to remove the plank from his own eye. You might as well. Jesus commanded to love one another as we would love ourselves. Hopefully you and PastProdigal don’t have such a bad view of yourself as portrayed here.

Sean

Again, you really need to go study that Bible. When telling someone to remove the plank in their eye, lets take this as it is meant. That would be someone accusing you of watching porn, while they are cheating on their spouse. It has nothing to do with judging general sin. It means to clean out your own house before you comment on anther.

Etranger

Yes pastprodigal should clean out his own house. He demonstrates vanity and judgment of sin he doesn’t even know I have! He actually is putting himself in gods shoes. I would never have such hubris!!!

Chris

As to judging others I believe you’ll find Matthew 7: 1-3 applies.

sammy

Actually I’m sure they welcome it for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace Kim Kwon

Is secular West going to ban the Holy Bible and Christianity this century? Evil repeats. Western Christendom is wasting all of its history lessens. If people have no Christianity, they do not seek objective truth or hold freedom. The Westerners need Christianity for salvation and the truth AND the right to quest for the truth.

? UK bans Christianity. West is nothing apart from Christianity as man is nothing apart from his conscience.

Dean Miller

Yeah, right. If you can explain the concept of Christianity to me, and explain how it is different from all other faiths, I MIGHT believe you.

johndoe

I grew up in the church of Christ for 18 years. Knocked on doors, Wednesday night bible study, baptized, …the whole nine yards. I need not explain anything to you. This atheist isn’t trying or wanting to ban Christianity.

Jessica Zber

Johndoe…my friend attended the Church of Christ and became embittered from her experience….there are Churches that do not have rules that restrict as that church did…maybe someday you will seek God again….prayers for you…

johndoe

I appreciate you kind words.

troof

So can you be a homosexual at that church? That religion would fit a lot of peoples’ fancy.

ppp777

If you really think that your either a fool or a liar .

sammy

What faith, teaches you to love your enemies? Where do other faiths put others before themselves? There is no others that do that! Where does God in any other belief come down and live among His people to endure this burning dumpster of a world that we condemned ourselves to live in? Then lays down His life for all of us though we hated Him. None of these other beliefs or faiths do this!!

Chris

“What faith, teaches you to love your enemies?”

Well Zoroastrianism and Buddhism do for a start.

“Where do other faiths
put others before themselves?”

In what sense?

“There is no others that do that!”

I just named two that do.

“Where does God in any other belief come down and live among His people to endure this burning dumpster of a world that we condemned ourselves to live in?”

Which other faith suggests that a God of love created a torture chamber?

PastProdigal

All religions can be wrong, but they cannot all be right. If you drove up to me and asked me the way to the hospital and I told you the wrong way and you ended up driving off a cliff, would you believe that all roads led to the hospital?

Grace Kim Kwon

Yes. Christianity alone is right and it alone has the living Saviour and the sure salvation from Him. All others are false and have no God’s truth or salvation.

Chris

But every faith could say the same.

Grace Kim Kwon

They don’t say the same. Jesus alone is the Saviour of the world. John chapter 4 and 14 and Acts chapter 4.

Edwin Masters

Which is sort of irrelevant. Truth is “what is”, and not how many people agree with it. Unfortunately, we now have the twisting of language to such an extent that someone can claim “my truth” vs. someone else’s “truth”. This is illogical.

What I find facinating is the statement at the top of the article:

“To say to someone that Jesus is the only God is not a matter of truth. To the extent that they are saying that the only way to God is through Jesus, that cannot be a truth,”

This itself is a truth claim. How does he know that “Jesus is the only God is not a matter of truth”? On what basis can he state that as fact? The prosecutor’s argument is self contradicting.

Chris

“Which is sort of irrelevant. Truth is “what is”, and not how many
people agree with it.”

I agree completely.

“Unfortunately, we now have the twisting of language to such an extent that someone can claim “my truth” vs. someone else’s “truth”. This is illogical.”

This is not a new thing. People have been imprecise in their use of words for centuries.

“What I find fascinating is the statement at the top of the article:”

You then quote “To say to someone that Jesus is the only God is not a matter of truth.
To the extent that they are saying that the only way to God is through Jesus, that cannot be a truth,”

You are assuming that the lawyer said these words. That the quote was not mistaken, nor taken out of context. Assuming that those assumptions are correct we can deconstruct it if you like.

The first sentence is correct. I take this portion of the quote to mean that a truth claim is not automatically true. That is correct. I can make the statement that a big bunny rabbit will come down from the sky 48 hours from now. It’s a truth claim but it isn’t automatically true.

The second sentence I would say is totally unsupported. If something ‘cannot be true’ it means that we have proof that such is the case. Ok. Where is this proof? This is why a careful skeptic will merely say that something is unsupported by the evidence.

Soloved

The concept of Christianity is unique as it is the only faith that is backed by the resurrection from the dead of the author of said faith. This same life from the grave is the reward for all that believe in Him. So, if you want eternal life, it is available in the Christ, the son of God.
Christianity is not a religious system, but
a relationship with God, one that He initiated and maintains.
Christians believe that mankind was created specifically to have a
relationship with God, but sin separates all men from Him (Romans 3:23, 5:12). Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ walked this earth, fully God, and yet fully man (Philippians 2:6-11),
and died on the cross to restore the relationship that was broken by
sin. After His death on the cross (thus paying the penalty for our sin’s), Christ was buried, He rose again, and
now lives at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for
believers forever (Hebrews 7:25).
The intimacy of this relationship is revealed in two poignant pictures.
Now no longer seen as law-breakers, we have been adopted into God’s own
family as His children (Ephesians 1:5). Even more intimately, believers are the very “body of Christ” of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23), having been purchased by His blood (Hebrews 9:12). No other religion makes assertions that even begin to approximate this incredible truth.You can believe, as there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun!

Dean Miller

Beautiful, brother. I know you are my brother in Christ, because His Spirit bears witness to me with you. You could not say what you said otherwise. Bless you.

Chris

“The concept of Christianity is unique as it is the only faith that is
backed by the resurrection from the dead of the author of said faith”

I think you mean the ‘claimed’ resurrection from the dead of it’s God. Other faiths have claimed as much.

The risen living Lord Jesus Christ was first seen of His disciples then to over 500. Who are those fellows, what was their purpose, what did they accomplish, how do they affect lives of their followers, what do they do to prepare all men for eternity, what type eternity do they speak of is to gain, what type eternity is to be avoided and how, and how many witness observed such men after their ‘supposed’ death? And where are they today and tomorrow and evermore?

Chris

“The risen living Lord Jesus Christ was first seen of His disciples then to over 500.”

Really? All we have are Paul’s claim that over 500 saw Christ after he died. In that case we don’t have the testimony of 500, we have the testimony of ONE.

As to Christ being seen by his disciples – ever heard of the Elvis lives phenomenon? Several fans of Elvis claim to have seen him after his death. Does that mean Elvis was raised from the dead too?

“Who are those fellows, …”

According to their mythology they are Divine.

“what was their purpose, what did they accomplish, …”

Each had a different purpose, and each accomplished something different. For example with Persephone’s death winter comes to the world and with her resurrection comes spring.

“how do they affect lives of their followers, what do
they do to prepare all men for eternity,…”

According to the Greek myths Dionysus taught men joy and promised them eternal life.

“what do they do to prepare all men for eternity,”

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Could you please rephrase the question?

“what type eternity do they speak of is to gain, …”

According to the Viking Myths followers of Odin gained the Valhalla.

“what type eternity is to be avoided and how, …”

According to Aztec myth people who do not follow Quetzalcoatl will fail the tests of the afterlife but, if they have remained his followers and given up sacrifice then Quetzalcoatl will help them gain paradise. If they fail the tests they will fall into Mictlan – an Aztec version of hell.

“…and how many witness observed such men after their ‘supposed’ death?”

Accordintg to the Egyptian myths the whole of Egypt saw Osirus after his death since he was the ruler of Egypt.

“And where are they today and tomorrow and evermore?”

Well if you accept that they are divine then they are in their various versions of heaven where they will remain for eternity.

Chet

Dude, what a load of dung. You’ve exhausted much more faith in foolishness than what it would take to become a child of the risen Lord, the One with whom we all have to do, some sooner, some later, but all eventually… And you might review the writings of Jocephus for more historical evidence regarding the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Chris

“Dude, what a load of dung.”

Would be nice if a reasoned argument accompanied this.

“And you might review the writings of Jocephus for more historical evidence regarding the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.”

You mean the portion of Josephus known as the ‘Testimonium Flavium’? The portion which was added to by the early Christians? That Josephus? How do I know it was added too? Because in that same book Josephus explains how Vespasian was the true Messiah. Then Josephus seems to break off, start talking about how Jesus is the Messiah, then goes back to talking about Vespasian. What does that sound like to you? Especially since Josephus never became a Christian yet he’d have to be given what he supposedly wrote.

Chet

I applied Luke 6:31 in this case as a warning just as I was once warned years ago. The Devil knows God’s Word, to a degree… The Lord gives us all free -will and it appears you’ve used yours to mock, deride and reject the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, for some unworthy reason… Thanks for the opportunity to share God’s love, as Jesus saves from the guttermost to the uttermost, no exceptions, no turn-aways of all who will but come unto Him…

Chris

“I applied Luke 6:31 in this case as a warning just as I was once warned
years ago.”

But that didn’t include politeness I see.

“The Devil knows God’s Word, to a degree… The Lord gives
us all free -will and it appears you’ve used yours to mock, deride and
reject the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary, for some unworthy reason…”

Why is merely recounting the historical evidence mocking and deriding Jesus? Are you implying that Jesus isn’t historical?

“Thanks for the opportunity to share God’s love, as Jesus saves from the
guttermost to the uttermost, no exceptions, no turn-aways of all who
will but come unto Him…”

Except you didn’t share it by example which, in my opinion, if far more powerful.

Chet

Sorry I did not meet your expectations. However, you’d go seriously wrong looking at me or any other man, so, keep your eyes on Jesus as he never fails…

Chris

“…keep your eyes on Jesus as he never fails…”

Already did, and he did.

Chris

Since you seem to believe that since Paul claimed there were 500 witnesses to the risen Christ then there must have been then allow me to top him. My friend Dave rose from the dead and his risen body was seen by over a thousand people. There ya go. That’s double the number Paul claimed so it must be doubly true.

What’s that? You don’t believe me? When you can think of a reason apply the same to Paul’s claim. Ok?

Chet

Somehow, I seriously doubt as one without Christ lies upon his own sickbed, family at his side, weepy eyed and some praying, as the death rattle is in his throat and he’s about ready to snap-out into eternity, he’ll not be thinking of anything else other than facing God Almighty and what horrors await him.

“So then, every one of us shall give account of himself to God” Romans 14:12, Holy Bible. You can be assured this Word of God will continue to exist long after you and I are gone… In fact, it’ll last forever…

Chris

“Somehow, I seriously doubt as one without Christ lies upon his own
sickbed, family at his side, weepy eyed and some praying, as the death
rattle is in his throat and he’s about ready to snap-out into eternity,
he’ll not be thinking of anything else other than facing God Almighty
and what horrors await him.”

You do know I’m a Zoroastrian right? We tend to think of other things. Or do you really believe that everyone, even people who have never heard of Jesus, suddenly start thinking about Jesus on their deathbed?

“”So then, every one of us shall give account of himself to God” Romans 14:12, Holy Bible.”

Yep. Paul did say that. Now, as to whether it’s true or not, that’s another matter.
In any case I thought you followed Christ NOT Paul.

“You can be assured this Word of God will continue to exist long after you and I are
gone… In fact, it’ll last forever…”

Uh Huh. I’m sure you believe that. Just like people once believed that the world was flat and the sun went round it. Didn’t make it so.

Chet

Good talking with you, respectfully, give your heart to Christ and enjoy the knowledge and joy of sins forgiven and forgotten, and be assured of eternal life in Heaven at life’s end. None other entity can afford such, at no cost to the sinner…Out.

Chris

Nice talking to you too. I was a Christian. I’m not anymore.

Chet

Greetings again, Chris. I labored over this short piece as I truly do not wish to offend nor irritate you on any point. Might I dare inquire two things: A. Did you exclaim Jesus failed you or did I misread you and B. Why would one once be a Christian but not so anymore? I am very familiar with the backslidden state, unfortunately, but to emphatically declare oneself to not be a Christian anymore is not something one would ordinarily hear anywhere. If you elect not to respond, that’s fine as it’s none of my business and I only inquire due to the emphatic statement and the fact that you appear to be a rather learned man regarding the Word. Seems something must’ve happened. With no response, I trouble you no further.

Chris

First I wish to say that I am not trying to shake anyone’s faith and if you feel that your faith might be weakened then please stop reading here.

I was raised a Christian but became born again when I was 18. I really wanted to know this Lord that I had pledged my life too. I prayed, studied the bible and read every book by people who’s walk in the Lord was far older than mine.

Now to my problem. I was a member of a prayer group. A woman came there suffering from cancer. She asked for prayers for healing. A few of the elders and I gathered and prayed over her. I was sure that she would be healed. After all there are a lot of promises of both healing and answered prayer in the bible. I’m sure you know them as well as I.
But she grew worse and worse. In the final phase of her life, her pain killers were no longer working and she merely wanted us to pray that God would stop the pain. She died some time later in agony. Despite the bible’s promises, despite her faith and ours she had died.

I was extremely troubled by this and sought an answer. First I prayed and searched the scriptures. I found no answer. I put my lack of progress down to something I was doing wrong and sought out the advice of Christians who I respected and were older in the walk. But when I told them about my concerns they reacted as though I were attacking their faith.

Next I turned to books by people who were famed for their faith. I found several answers here but none of them struck me as true. One claimed that people who aren’t healed didn’t have enough faith. But if that were true then why was she even at the prayer meeting? In any case the gospels declare that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed then we can order mountains around [Matt: 17: 20].

The next author claimed that it was sinful to rely on God’s promises. Then what were they given for? What purpose did they serve? The next claimed that prayers for healing had to use certain words at certain times. This struck me more like a spell than a prayer.
Most authors seemed to proclaim that the promises of God were ‘yay and amen’ and yet give reasons why we shouldn’t actually expect an answer to prayer.

Two more events led to my leaving the Christian faith but that’s for another post if you would be interested.

Chet

I figured your stated departure from the Lord was at least party caused by other men, the best of which are sinners at best. Sometimes people say the stupidest things without really knowing what they’re saying or stopping to think things through before speaking. And especially so when talking around those who are perhaps younger in the faith and/or don’t really know yet just what they believe or why they believe it. Those who do such talking are often ones who are puffed up with self worth, rank or stature in the “faith”. And then, there are those who talk a good spiritual talk yet may not know Christ as their own personal Lord and Saviour via His grace and mercy (not that there’as any other way) but they could be those of a works salvation, i.e., one’s own good deeds.

I recall some years ago when a Christian teenage girl was beaten to death by a lunatic with a huge board, reportedly for not submitting sexually. Entirely believable, and he was convicted. At her funeral (which I did not attend) reportedly, a number of other youth were saved as a result of the preacher’s message. One lady was said to exclaim, well, the Lord knew there would be a number of others saved so… To which I received as a thoughtless, demeaning, irresponsible, hurtful and stupid comment better left unsaid even if fully persuaded of such. And there was/is no biblical support for such. God has a permissive will and a purposed will, i.e., the weather/climate as noted in Matthew 8:23-27. He allows sin in the hearts of men as we are free-will beings, even though one day, all must give account as you know. He even allowed His Son to be mocked, spit on, stripped, beaten and nailed to Calvary’s Cross on our behalf, as such was His purposeful will. Crime, i.e., ISIS is rampant and God is not taken aback nor surprised by any of it.

A Christian with whom I am very familiar recently lost his wife to Burkette’s Lymphoma, even after much prayer was offered. ANd while he was hurt to his heart and yet grieves, he does not blame God as he knows “As in Adam, all die”. Some folks are healed via anointing with oil, a type of the Holy Spirit, and laying on or=f hands, while still others are not. And it seems to me, most are not when a cancer is involved and even though some may be spared, it’s only temporary in many cases as the cancer seems to come back later, elsewhere in far too many cases. Even the young, strong and healthy die in oftimes freakish situations. No one has all the answers, especially myself.

I have learned to lean on the Lord much more so while taking the words of many men with a grain of salt. One thing I found helpful was listening to far lesser “men of God” than I once did. Now, it’s the local preacher, and maybe 3/4 on TV along with my daily reading of the Word and perusing daily devotionals for a quick pick me up. I too have experienced hurt and disappointment, mostly of my own doing, however, yet I purpose to not ever let another sinner man, saved or no, separate me from my Lord and diminish my own relationship with Him.

And while I have faith to believe the good news gospel regarding salvation and deliverance and am eager to share such whenever possible, I know I’ll never remove a mountain nor be able to confess something to the point of most assuredly bringing it to pass just because I said so and named it and claimed it. Take the Great Commission as recorded in Mark 16: 15-18, while I believe it with all my heart I will not be purposely drinking anything poison or handling a rattlesnake to try it out. And to those who do, I say, good on you, but don’t hurl that serpent onto my lap, that’s just not for me. Now, should I accidentally eat some bad food, which for sure I have, or perhaps pick up a board and a copperhead snapped me, I’d then be looking for the Lord’s quick remedial intervention even via hospital and medication, as necessary. Just my opine, that’s all, brother…

Chris

“Now, should I accidentally eat some bad food, which for sure I have, or
perhaps pick up a board and a copperhead snapped me, I’d then be
looking for the Lord’s quick remedial intervention even via hospital and
medication, as necessary. Just my opine, that’s all, brother…”

That’s what the woman who was dying with cancer did. She and I both relied on the promises of healing. She died. The promises were less than yay and amen.

It wasn’t that no one knew the answer to my problem that disturbed me. It was that this woman in so much need stood upon the promises in the bible and was denied help.

Now we can certainly invent reasons why God didn’t feel bound to fulfill his promises. But those same reasons could well apply to the promises of salvation. After all if God didn’t feel bound to fulfill his promises of healing maybe he won’t feel bound to fulfill his promises of salvation either.

Now this was not the only thing which drew me away from Christianity, but it’s certainly one of them. I’ll give my other two reasons in the next post.

Chet

In my para above, I’d sure be looking for the Lord’s help but I’d know that bad things do often happen to God’s people, why, I’ll never know. The dear lady you knew who lost her battle with cancer was in hopes of deliverance like all of us would be in such case as everything that has breath wants to live. However, one would have to understand that ultimately all die, physically, at some point or another. I know a man very well who lost his wife of above 40 years recently, and while he and others prayed, her deliverance was not to be. That said, in either case, as Christians, both these dear women are in the presence of the Lord now and forever and their death experiences are likely far removed from their care and former concern. I’m convinced of such, though I cannot cite chapter and verse precisely to the point. And today, both are marvelously healed, praising and thanking the Lord for His great mercy and Grace while enjoying sights and sounds and smells of Heaven…. One day, to have their souls and bodies reunited.

There are verses strongly alluding to divine physical healing, and, as well, verses declaring flat out, as in Adam, all die. This, in addition to merely looking around us as death is everywhere, accident, sickness, disease, murder… However, there are solid claims regarding the salvation as one comes to Christ IAW His Word. For sake of time and space, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. Thus, one serious about his need of the Saviour need not think he could possibly be deceived.

Just like there are verses that our fate is like that of the beasts. So if you’re arguing that if verses contradict then we shouldn’t depend on them then virtually every divine promise given is contradicted later.

But in any case this is treating God’s promises like they are the promises of a used car dealer. Such promises sound great but not to be depended upon in need.

Now we are faced with possibilities. God never gave those promises. God is like a used car salesman. Men were giving out those promises and claiming they came from God.

I can relate an even worse case. There was a preacher who was truly gifted, not only in his faith but in his ability with teenagers. He developed a genetic disorder which progressively robbed him of mobility. In the end he turned into a living corpse. He was prayed for by an entire seminary. They were sure he would be healed. When he wasn’t many were so shaken in their faith they left the seminary and Christianity altogether. Others felt that, never again could they rely on any promise in the bible.

It would seem strange that God should not only fail to fulfill His promise but allow such an event which so damaged or destroyed the faith and lives of so many people.

And consider that this gentleman with the genetic disorder didn’t die. He was just reduced to a lump of meat. With sufficient care he can be expected to live decades more.

You write that such people, when they are in heaven wouldn’t remember their earthly suffering any more. But that wouldn’t change the fact that they were misled and treated unjustly. That they choose to no longer remember it doesn’t make how they were treated just.

Chet

Second para: by no means am I saying any verses in the Word are contradictory, but, rather, all must be rightly divided. One could cite, “There is no God” but with the rest it declares, “The Fool hath said in his heart… And the power of God heals all kinds of people daily, even monstrous people like Hitler. You think he never had a belly ache. Then, there were those dead bodies which arose from the dead when Christ gave His life on Calvary. Yet, they died again later, just as did Lazarus. Yes, Chris, people are healed often with the laying on of hands and anointing of oil by others as well as those believers living alone who must pray for their own selves. Yet, ultimately, they die. God says our lives are but a vapour that appears for a little time then vanishes away. Hence, the non biblical old saying, here today and gone tomorrow and as one gets older it’s here today and gone today. How many disciples faced untimely death, i.e., John Baptist and Stephen.. God could’ve stopped it, but in His own wisdom, He did not.

Para three & four: You recall the Devil quoted scripture to the Lord Jesus regarding him jumping off the cliff and all would be okay as the angels would bear him up. A serious misquote, even though Christ could easily have done so without bodily harm.

You write so vividly regarding those in pain and physical distress. Can you do the same regarding those who have been born-again, or saved? Those whom the love of God convicted their sin filled hearts. They then repented, received Christ as Lord and Saviour, gew in the Lord, then, went on as the then indwelling Holy Spirit broke Satan’s divers bondages and transformed their lives from alcohol, drugs, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, theft, hatred etc? Then, there’s others with families whose kids have come home, husbands came home and porn went out the window. Do you not know any such good reports regarding the transforming and life changing power of Christ? How about those who in closing their eyes in death had visions of glory just ahead? Don’t misunderstand but you can indeed portray much sorrow physically and under poorly trained teaching of men whose mouths open prior to their having through their words, and especially to those younger in the faith or young period.

You have surely been hurt by perhaps some well meaning men. I say perhaps as the Devil can very well use others for select purposes and you do know every person in church is not saved. Just as not all churches preach and teach the unvarnished truth of the Holy Bible, else we wouldn’t have churches ordaining homosexuals and/or voicing no opposition to abortion, for example.

Respectfully, I would not, under any circumstance, allow some fraud preacher or teacher or even under informed man of goodwill separate me from my Lord and lose my own eternal soul over it. No way. And I fear as you write so darn good that something somehow has served to literally knock you off track. Hopefully, you do know God’s love for you has never changed and Christ stands with open arms to welcome you back, just as the Prodigal son…

Chris

“You write so vividly regarding those in pain and physical distress.”

Thank you for the compliment. Much appreciated.

“Can you do the same regarding those who have been born-again, or saved?
Those whom the love of God convicted their sin filled hearts. They then
repented, received Christ as Lord and Savior, grew in the Lord, then,
went on as the then indwelling Holy Spirit broke Satan’s divers bondages
and transformed their lives from alcohol, drugs, homosexuality,
adultery, fornication, theft, hatred etc?”

Except they don’t. Alcoholics and drug addicts, unless they start to reform the addictive character remain alcoholics – just not engaging in alcohol or drugs. In essence they switch their addiction from alcohol to religion.

I’ve noticed how many preachers claim to be freed of their desire for adultery time, after time, after time, etc.

As to homosexuality that is an orientation. It is neither curable nor is it a sin.

“Then, there’s others with families whose kids have come home, husbands came home and porn went out the window.”

Except I don’t see anything wrong with porn either. It’s the type of porn and how it is used which can make it a problem.

“Do you not know any such good reports regarding the transforming and life changing power of Christ?”

I have seen the same transformations in Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, etc.

“How about those who in closing their eyes in death had visions of glory just ahead?”

You’re speaking of near death experiences? I find those fascinating. However lots of people have had near death experiences. The majority do NOT support Christian doctrine.

“You have surely been hurt by perhaps some well meaning men. I say perhaps as the Devil can very well use others for select purposes and you do know every person in church is not saved.
Just as not all churches preach and teach the unvarnished truth of the
Holy Bible, else we wouldn’t have churches ordaining homosexuals and/or
voicing no opposition to abortion, for example.”

I repeat it was NOT the teaching of others which shook my faith but the reactions of God. We received no answer to heartfelt needs even when such answers were promised.

Take the lady who was dying of cancer. We prayed for information from God as to what we should do? We were met only with an indifferent silence.

“And I fear as you write so darn good that something somehow has served to literally knock you off track. Hopefully, you do know God’s love for you has never changed and
Christ stands with open arms to welcome you back, just as the Prodigal son…”

Thank you for the compliment. It is much appreciated.

Chris

I had two other reasons for leaving Christianity. The first was genocide.

I was asked once if I remember the Hebrews being ordered into the cities of the plain to kill everything that breathes – man, woman, child, ox and ass. When I replied that I did I was asked “imagine this. You are a soldier in that army. You round the corner of a building. There you see a young mother holding her baby and begging you not to harm her child. Now, they continued, do you let her and the child live and disobey God or do you murder them both and praise God for the opportunity?”

There was simply no way I could think of the killing of a young woman and her baby as anything but murder and yet, according to the bible, God had ordered it. Once again I was troubled by how God could give such an immoral order.

My final reason is that while I was a Christian I was also a Creationist. I respected the leaders of the movement. Then I heard lie after lie come from the mouths of these same people I respected. I asked myself – if they’d lie over so many things then how do I know if any of the creation account is true? I went looking for the evidence. It ended with me leaving Christianity.

Chet

If I might take the liberty, the one asking you such a question was way of base in his approach to teaching as within the NT there are no such God directed purposes, none. And the OT was Law while the NT is grace and grace is the era in which we live since Christ’s earthly presence among men. Whether or not I would do so and so today is non applicable and foolish to discuss as the Almighty is not going to ask such of me or anyone else.

Now, regarding your last para, I have to share something very applicable. Two weeks ago a new Christian themed movie was released and only played in the local theater one day. When and where it will go forward with multiple showings etc, across the USA I know not. If you could see your way to do so, checkout the flick “Is Genesis History”. A two hour show of top notch intelligence with notable historians and visual footage that is absolutely remarkable ranging from the Great Flood’s effect, archaeology, paleontology, astronomy and oceanography. It is very good for anyone who is interested in learning facts. If I was unsaved and unconcerned, obviously I wouldn’t attend such. But, if I were a doubting Thomas or just seeking a deeper understandiong of what I believed and why I believed it, it would indeed validate the Holy Bible account…

Chris

“If I might take the liberty, the one asking you such a question was way
off base in his approach to teaching, as within the NT there are no such
God directed purposes, none.”

You’ve never read the prophet Jeremiah?

Chet

Perhaps I missed something, Chris, Jeremiah’s book is one of the 39 OT.

Chris

Correct. And in the book Jeremiah relays an order from God to murder men, women, children and even animals.

Chet

Under Law, not Grace…

Chris

Law or grace people are being ordered to commit murder. That is evil. If they were ordered to do this by God then God commanded people to do something evil.

Chris

I’m over in Australia so I doubt that your movie will make it here. But I’ve seen such movies before. When I fact check them I find out that the claims are either exagerations or outright lies.

For example ‘the flood. Go to youtube and type into the search engine ‘Potholer54 + Noah’s Flood Debunked’. As to the flood and archaeology – archaeology was part of my one of my majors. There is NO archaeological support for the flood. The only thing that’s usually trotted out are flood myths. Well no surprise that flood myths exist. Most ancient people settled by rivers in order to have a ready supply of fresh water. Since rivers flood it’s not surprising that they would develop flood myths.

What’s my evidence? Simply that every flood myth is totally diferent to each other – except the ones around Sumer. The Sumerian flood myths are so similar that it is obvious that each one copied the one before.

Chet

Chris, it looks like we’ve about taken our conversation as far as it can go. God bless you, thanks for the exchange of ideas and, respectfully, reconsider returning to the fold as the Master of the universe will surely welcome you home…

Chris

Thank you for the exchange of ideas and your good wishes. All the very best.

Chris

First off thank you for sharing. And for taking what I wrote seriously. I have given my reasons before and found that some are so eager to give me the ‘right’ answer they don’t even try to understand a single thing I’ve written. Thank you for making the effort. It is very much appreciated.

except when you are on your death bed or possibly losing a loved one ..when you are desperate and you have no hope then you are begging God for your life…ignore God at your own peril either way …your self directed life leaves you nothing in the end but a miserable second death.

johndoe

I’ve lost friends in war and my mother last summer. Your holy man was never called for…..

Grace Kim Kwon

I’m sorry for your loss, John. Now your loved ones on the other side all want you to trust in Jesus and get saved. Please do it now, before it’s too late. Don’t harden your heart against God.

ppp777

” Repenting of sins ” is not the gospel , that is works salvation .

Grace Kim Kwon

You are wrong. Repenting is being honest and acknowledging God’s truth about self and having the faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus and His Apostles who spoke in the Holy Spirit preached all to repent. You are not saved and you need to repent of your sins to get saved. Read John chapter 3 and Acts chapter 16.

ppp777

Repent means a change of mind , and this case means admitting your a sinner believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and who he is and what he done on the cross , burial and reserection of course and on that only and you will be saved , that is the gospel , nothing more nothing less , so stop with the lordship salvation nonsense , you are deceiving people .

Grace Kim Kwon

You are wrong. Those who repent and believe would follow the Lord. That’s the proof that the Holy Spirit is within the individual. Read Galatians and James. Cheap grace does not exist. Salvation is free, but the discipleship costs everything, the entire life. Licentiousness is from Satan and not of Christianity. Read Romans, too. “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” (James chapter 2)

ppp777

Again you are wrong and james is referring to believers [ saved people ] , you are preaching a false gospel , Christ’s death on the cross was the price paid for our salvation that is not cheap grace , boy you would think you were sinless the way you go on , your not and far from it so stop kidding yourself , anyway go on you tube and watch pastor steven Anderson he will put you straight on the subject of salvation , and one thing more , you are no apostle even paul said he was carnal and struggling with sin , never mind the likes of you .

Grace Kim Kwon

The saving faith manifests itself in real life. It is Biblical. Yes, Jesus’ atoning death on the cross is sufficient for all, but the sinner must repent of his sin and trust in Lord Jesus to be saved. Jesus alone is sinless. Christians struggle against sins and their temptations to the end but never unrepentant knowingly. Read 1 John. Jesus told everyone to repent; it’s not a work.

ppp777

If you think I am going to go around in circles with the likes of you have got another thing coming , i have a lot more important things to do like putting my shoes on , for the millionth time and no more [ take my word for it ] , repent means to change ones mind and is certainly no work , stop adding ” from your sins ” to it , that is works by plain definition , so stop contradicting yourself and the bible , do not add to his word .

Grace Kim Kwon

You are weird. “Repent” and “repent of one’s own sin” is the same thing. What do you repent of if not your own sin?

Shosh 7154

Did you ever meet Jesus ?

sammy

Its essential for salvation whom all need.

PastProdigal

It’s necessary.

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

Heading that way sister

Grace Kim Kwon

What happened to the religious freedom? It started in the UK. What had happen to the white Britons? Why do they attack and mock Christianity this century, the only true and good religion that has sustained them for the last 1,700 years?

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

Christians have sat idly back thinking this would never happen. However, the Lord foretold this in His Word yet no one evidently thought it would happen in their lifetime. So, instead of fighting for this continued freedom, they just sat back thinking there was no way.

Just like when 1 woman fought prayer in school. NO WAY could 1 woman have this entire country remove prayer from its school system, the very foundation of what the system was built on to begin with. So, why bother fighting it? We see what happened there.

In 1973, we would have never believed that 1 court case would have meant the deaths of millions of innocent children in America as well as other countries – which we have paid the bill. Yet, here we are.

Satan knew this. He seen Jesus’ people being lax & knew exactly when to make his move. He’s been at this game a long time & he’s dang good at it.

Grace Kim Kwon

Tammy, I think the Western white people have a deep grudge against the Biblical Christians for bringing racial equality last century. I think that’s why they set their goals to make the Christians suffer by upholding homosexuality and transgenderism unconditionally and putting colored people in the same category with sexual pervs and do everything they can to install the same chaos in the already-unhappy starving poor nations.

This racism is unacceptable. Or, the Western white people simply lost sane wisdom by losing out the Judeo-Christian values. In any case, this evil needs to be opposed by normal people. Rich childless Westerners should not be allowed to ruin the world’s children. The evil is just too much. Western Christians must fight against the pervs’ dominion; it is Christians’ holy duty.

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

Amen

Chris

You do realize that this report is rather one sided? According to others I’ve read the preacher was arrested for disturbing the peace.

Grace Kim Kwon

Speaking out the truth is not disturbance but a life-saving work of love.

Edwin Masters

One of the reasons is the pervasive attitude of Christians that “God is in control” equates to “I don’t need to do anything”. I thank God there have been brave men and women who listened to God’s voice and did something in our past. Christian pacifism/fatalism is not Biblical. Over and over again God has used people who would simply believe Him and do what He said.

Rather, the church generally thinks it is better to be liked for doing things that the Rotary Club or Lions Club could do equally well. It pats itself on the back for communicating a different gospel that is based on the “brotherhood of man” that requires no death on a cross for sinful men and women. People don’t come to Christ for the forgiveness of their sins because they see a twinkle in your eye or because you feed and clothe them. These “rice Christians” are gone as soon as the food runs out.

The message of the cross is an offense and stumbling block to the world, and to leave it out in order to be liked is to deny Him. How can they hear without a preacher? It must be spoken, lovingly, but firmly.

The power of the gospel is lost every time we Christians sit by silently, say nothing, and do nothing.

Grace Kim Kwon

UK is acting like Sanhedrin. Regression into the 2,000-year-ago. The Britons were superior only because they had the copies of the Holy Bible in the commoners’ language. The Holy Bible declares that Jesus is God and is the only Way to God the Father and it is the truth. ( John 14, Acts 4) Mankind have no other salvation; without Jesus, people just face eternal justice because all are sinners. (Romans chapter 1-6, Revelation chapter 20)

johndoe

The Bible is nothing more than a collection of fables.

Grace Kim Kwon

The Holy Bible is true. Secular West is repaying the good with evil to the Christianity their long-standing conscience this century.

KenyanPark

Sir, I’d like to challenge you – the day when you are backed into a corner, with absolutely no one to assist you e.g., you or your loved one with a terminal illness staring at death, depression, etc – when you have no card to play but still want to live, ask Jesus for help. I don’t mean trying to prove whether Bible claims are valid…..I mean when you’re TOTALLY, COMPLETELY hopeless, ask God for help. You’ll be shocked.

sammy

What you said is nothing new. A self directed life will lead you to believe this. Your own limited knowledge will doom you as I’m sure it has betrayed you many times before. God has said this before you ever came into existence and even in your own being you know this is so.

johndoe

Nope

PastProdigal

The Bible has been proven to be 100% accurate in every way it has ever been challenged, and it will continue to be so. No one has ever been able to disprove a single fact or historical incident. Archeology continues to confirm it’s accuracy and it always will.

johndoe

Fiction can have real places and people. The great flood has been disproven over and over. What about talking snakes and walking on water? Hmmm

maranathagen67

John… check out Ken Ham’s website. Your assumptions may not be as solid as you think. When I hear of scientists and historians gloating over their so-called experiments and revelations, I find it amusing. Someday their eyes will be opened, but will it be too late?

Chris

Ken Ham’s website? The same Ken Ham that declared that NOTHING would ever convince him he was wrong? Now there is a man who’s open to the evidence. 🙂

ppp777

” Evidence ” , now that’s funny .

ppp777

Or what about talking parrots , yeah your right , hum

Chris

“The Bible has been proven to be 100% accurate in every way it has ever been challenged, and it will continue to be so.”

So when the bible speaks of the sun going round the Earth it was proven right? I don’t think so.

maranathagen67

You say fables; I say facts and faith…. check it out!

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Grace Kim Kwon

It was astonishing that the Russians would fall into an atheism to butcher all the rich, giving up the Orthodox Christianity almost a century ago. Will the Britons give up the Anglican Christianity to butcher the children in wombs and to live in Sodomy? What tribe on earth ever tried to destroy a sane conscience and a good religion only so that people could live in the unthinkable depravity which even pagans despise? UK is going wrong, all the Western nations and their mental slaves for that matter. UK needs to read the Holy Bible (Westminster Catechism helps for sound doctrines if they still have those) to obtain and understand the truth. The Russians could not eliminate their godly grandmothers and their Christian literature and bounced back to sanity 3 decades ago. Hopefully, the Britons will repent and return to Jesus without doing too much follies or abuses… Western Europe must really stop being haughty against Jesus Christ this century; it’s time.

Shosh 7154

Yes because Yeshua (JESUS) is returning in our day and here’s why:

ACCORDING TO THIS PROPHECY IN MATTHEW 24
THE LORD JESUS WILL RETURN IN OUR LIFETIME

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:32 Now learn a lesson from the fig tree; When its branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Truthfully I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

WHO IS THE FIG TREE ? Israel is the Fig Tree
FIG TREE: Hosea 9:10 …Like the first fruit on the fig tree, in its first season, I (God) saw your fathers (Israel)
The generation alive to see Israel become a nation is the 1948 generation which will NOT pass away before the Son of Man, the Messiah returns. I looked up the average age at death :

81 years for females 76 years for males

I added 81 to the year 1948 which is the year Israel the fig tree came back as a nation which brings us to the year 2029.

I subtracted the current year 2016 from the year 2029. The result is we have approximately 13 years before the Messiah (Jesus) returns.

This is an invitation. Will you call on Jesus today? For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Lord Jesus, please accept me and become my Lord and my Saviour. I know You were judged and punished for my sins, so that on Judgement Day, I will not be found guilty because You took my place in Hell when You died and on the third day rose from the grave to provide eternal life for me with You. Jesus, I am professing You now as my Lord and my Saviour. Please give me a new heart and put Your Spirit in me to help me learn to know You and to follow You forever. Amein

If you asked the Lord to do these things, all of Heaven is celebrating your new birth into God’s own family and His Kingdom right now. Please read what Jesus says in His book about you so you can see how much He loves you. May the God of all life lead you and guide you and protect you, satisfy your needs and fill you with His joy at this moment and send you many strong teachers, in Jesus’ name. Amein

Grace Kim Kwon

AMEN!

maranathagen67

We know not the day nor the hour, but the signs of Christ’s return abound. He will come as a thief in the night…. many will be unprepared, left behind. Prophecy is being fulfilled every day; e.g., the Middle East, the world lined up against Israel, the Russian Bear already on Israel’s doorstep, the Far East in turmoil and ready to settle some scores over the South China Sea and eventually head in the direction of the Holy Land, the silent invasion of Islam, Putin and his bag of nasty tricks, the ten nation confederacy and the three who will leave (Britain already out….more to follow as the right wing parties take control), drought and disaster from changing weather patterns, the sinister politics of our leaders, the distrust, the shame of our evil indulgences, etc. etc. It’s all out there just as the Bible predicted. That should be sufficient for doubters to come to faith in the Truth, God’s infallible inspired Word and to look to Christ as the Author and Finisher of our faith. But will they? There is always the possibility of procrastinating to the point of hardening their hearts so that the Spirit of God cannot penetrate their pride and bring them to conviction and conversion.

Shosh 7154

The generation alive at the same time Israel became a nation is the 1948 Generation and THAT GENERATION will NOT DIE OFF before the MESSIAH RETURNS. Israel is almost 70 years now and the life expectancy of the average person is late 80’s or early 90’s. Add 90 years to 1948 and that is near the time of Yeshua’s return…before the last 1948’er dies….and the 90 years are based on ideal living conditions….that is, no devastating nuclear exchange, clean water, safety in the streets, available food, access to hospitals and medicine…you can see how quickly the events in Revelation, the four horsemen will shorten that life span estimate. So adding 90 to 1948 gives us the year 2038….some 20 years but those years will be shortened….GET READY…YESHUA JESUS IS RETURNING IN OUR DAY !

Grace Kim Kwon

Post-christian means prohibition of the truth. Man should obey God rather than the Post-christian Great Britain. The Britons need God’s truth to be right. The West seeks objective truth only when it adheres Christianity.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” And His disciples in the Holy Spirit testified. “there is no salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Jesus had commanded, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” His disciples followed Him and said to a bad human authority, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” (John 14, Acts 4, Matthew 28, Acts 4)

Angela Cummings

Chester, England gave me an ASBO and banned me for 4 hours for preaching the gospel. Then, I attempted to return to UK Sept. 30, 2015 with Israel wristband on arm they stopped me. They did research on my ministry and now I have to get Visa to even come in there. UK does not want Christians coming in and offending anyone. It is good that Christians are working hard that are already in country. UK please keep up the good work. The Lamb of God is worthy.

Gemmel Scholz

For the Prosecutor and Judge to be correct this case demands that they answer questions – Who is this Jesus? What claims does the Bible make? What is the Bible? 1611 was only the King James translation of the Bible into English.

Making an opposing statement is antiChrist and of satan. When Peter addressed an issue which was not of God Jesus addressed the matter – away from me satan!

What about these tenets recorded as Jesus very own words

Jesus was Gloriously with God before the world began.

Jesus Christ as the word of God was involved in Creation of the earth as we know it. Not even our moon which is the same distance from the sun has sustainable life.

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas when Thomas declared my Lord and my God.

God planned before the world began to restore those who would seek Him to himself.

This plan was through the Grace of God (YHVH) known by many names in the world but only One God. If Allah does not have a Son Jesus Christ or Yeshua then the name Allah is not one of them.

God gave Jesus Christ authority one all flesh. What does this mean for you?

Well it is simple! Mercy or Judgement. God gave us freedom of choice to choose.

Our job as Christians is to point to yo your great need whether you are Mormon, Seventh day Adventist, Hindu, Jehovah Witness, Bhuddist, Muslim, Islamic,homosexual,adulterer,……

YES. Jesus Christ is the answer. God’s son came into the world as a little baby established the way to the Father( the way to heaven) through His crucifixion. He gave up his life that the rebellion against God through the first Adam could be made right through acceptance of the sacrifice for sin. Jesus Christ is the second adam and he has ascended to Heaven and reigns with His Father. He cam not to condemn but to save. He will come again to Judge.

Mr Prosecutor here is your answer in a nutshell John 3:16 “For God so loved the world He gave His One and Only Son that whosoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

You like this earth and what God through Christ prepared for you here well jesus is preparing a place for those who love Him. Our message is inclusive not barbaric and it is a message of love not war that political fiends turn it into. Turn to God through Jesus Christ. Repent. The Kingdom of God is near!

Kevin

Bear with me on this as I think instead of taking the moral or spiritual high ground, the strength is in the legal and copyright high ground we Christians should take. I think a valid legal argument is being overlooked and would be useful in their defense in court.

The Bible in its originality and subsequent versions is contained within Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and Latin languages which goes back in centuries of which the rights to do not belong to the English Crown The King James version of the Bible does not by right belong to God, Christians or Judaism.

It is in fact a derivative publication and a work of translation that in its entirety, the Copyright and IP belongs to the English Crown to this day. In other words it is a English Government Document and publication just as are any published English Law Books. Evenso, the English Crown has assigned a commercial license to publish and make a business from the selling of this derivative work to a company in Scotland, it is still wholly owned by the English Crown.

To illustrate this point – without anyone’s permission take a copy of the King James Bible, go to India, China or a cheap printing company print off 2,000 copies and then ship back to England. The works will be confiscated and (probably) burnt, you will be fined, probably have damages awarded against you – why you might ask…because you have breached the full property rights of the English Crown in that the King James version of the Bible as the English Crown is the exclusive owner of the Copyright, not Christians not the Church of England, not the Roman Catholic Church.

It is in fact a derivative publication and a work of translation that in its entirety, the Copyright and IP belongs to the English Crown. In other words it is a English Government Document and
publication just as are any published English Law Books. Evenso, the English Crown has assigned to a company in Scotland, a commercial license to publish and make a business and wholly exploit global opportunities from the selling of this derivative work, it is still wholly owned by the English Crown.

If one now, since we have established the King James Version of the Bible is Crown property in the translation, takes this a step further, we must also consider there are many Law books herein that contain the English Law published by the Government of England (that is the Crown), being it in Property Rights, Relationship Law, Education Law, Civil Liberties Law, Construction Law, Trading Laws, etc and all of these laws contains many offensive clauses and rulings that are both objectionable, cause for alarm to various parts of the community. Some have caused major riots, death and economic loss. Some of it does not bother folk and for others highly objectionable.

Is it a crime and offence to recite works of literature, art, history, old and current law, legislation – derivatives of other works, opinion that are wholly owned by the English Crown? …. I hardly
think so.

One could go further in demonstrating the foolishness of the UK Crown Prosecutor by tabling on the street corner those particularly offensive British laws, ludicrous out of date laws of which many could take offence and that are on the current statute books (their enforcement is irrelevant) and ask would they then arrest someone for preaching about say speed laws, shop opening hours to whatever, all of which are contained in published and gazetted.

I quote… ” But attorney Michael Phillips of the Christian Legal Centre noted to the court that the men were simply citing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, which reads, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

The arrested men are reciting a passage word for word from a Government owned book as stated and confirmed in English law. The fact it is the “Bible” is irrelevant or found to be upsetting to Muslims or others. The fact it happens to be called the Bible should IMHO make absolutely no difference. Being arrested for quoting King James version of the scriptures or creating a public roadside safety hazard are two entirely separate issues. The UK Crown Law office does not have a right or legal basis to stipulate what English Crown owned publications can be read aloud in public or not. Will it be illegal to quote Shakespeare’s Romeo in a LGBT environment or neighbourhood after all Romeo and Juliet were heterosexual, or the Traffic Laws at dangerous intersections.

If the British Government uses the King James version of the Bible to swear on, in Royal Coronations, giving testimony then this presents an additional argument in their defense.

I hope the case I put forward is helpful and is the basis I would have used. Fight fire with fire I say. Your thoughts?

Gemmel Scholz

What is truth? God’s word written through the Holy Spirit and received through the Holy Spirit. Recorded by 40 men over 1500 years. The Jewish scriptures of God’s Holy Nation and the New Covenant record of Jesus Christ through His disciples and Apostles.
Jesus also said” I am the Way and there Truth and the Life, NO-One comes to the Father except through me.”
Now there is fact and there is Truth.
The fact is the words that Jesus spoke and the timeframe of the Bible. The history of the Nation of Israel as God’s Holy Nation and that the Bible has no error or contradiction over a period of 1500 years.
The contradiction is the sinfulness of mankind and his refusal to accept truth and failure to understand. How might your understanding of the Bible change if you receive it through the Holy Spirit. That is through God. Prayer – May God help those who do not understand.

Mike Jacob

Sobthe attorney has set himself up as the standard by which truth is measured. Jesus was put on a cross for doing that.

Loretta Anne

Keep preaching the Truth brothers!! Stand firm!

Alan William Howard

Jesus Christ is God and all others are false gods. Jesus Christ The Son of God paid the penalty on the cross for the sins of all that would trust Him as Saviour. There is salvation in no other as He is The Way The Truth and The Life.

All you need is love

Preachers in Mosques preaching Quran that state just that and they are walking free!!

Chris

They aren’t being arrested for making a public disturbance. These preachers were. If they’d have stayed in their churches they could preach what they like.

Troy A. Yarde

my friend it is true that there are many gods, how ever we as Christians believe that there is only one true God and that is the God of the Bible, and the only way to this God of the bible is through the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Janet Lingel Aldrich

When I was younger, I wondered how on earth things would get bad enough that we as Christians would become persecuted and risk arrest. Now I can’t see how anyone who is willing to stand for the Truth is going to be able to avoid it. Lord have mercy on us.

Theresa

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

Theresa

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

John 14:6

Grace Kim Kwon

Amen. Jesus is the truth, not the UK’s godless humanists.

Gary Pollock

So, when you go to law school, you know the truth not just better than other humans, but better than God himself. I would like to hear what God has to say to this lawyer on his Judgement day!!!

ajhnson

Ian Jackson and those like him are going to bust hell wide open if they die in their sins believing Jesus isn’t the only way to Heaven. The devil is warping the minds of many into believing these lies.

Tom Cook

They need to fight this as far as they possibly can. God will not be mocked. We fight not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual strongholds. These people are of their father, the devil.

http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

Hallelujah!!!

ppp777

Bang on .

Nensul

John 14:6

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Nensul

1 Timothy 2:5

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

1 John 2:2

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Kevin Doherty

These guys are arrested, yet non-Christians can get away with saying anything they want!?
#Endofdaysisnigh

Lydia Church

First of all, YES, IT IS THE TRUTH.
Jesus IS the one and only way to heaven, He provides the only way of salvation.
It is the opposite of that that cannot be true. Otherwise He would have lied when HE claimed this was the truth. See below.
Second, it is not up to an outside party to share our belief in order for us to have the right and freedom of speech to proclaim it. Third, we have the mandate from JESUS to proclaim it in the Great Commission, Matthew 28.
Now as for the gospel truth that Jesus is the only way of salvation:
“Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14; 6
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” [Jesus] Acts 4; 12
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”
1 Timothy 2; 5

To persecute someone for preaching the gospel is the same thing they did to the apostles from the start; nothing has changed. Jesus even told us not to be surprised over this.
Preach on!!!

Rob Ball

Saying that Jesus is the only way is probably not the best way to present the gospel, However, these judges are clearly wrong for saying that it cannot be the truth, because it might be. And if Jesus said it, (and its likely that he did) then its a warning that everyone should hear.

http://www.rejectingjesus.com Acalibre

Significantly, you’ve omitted from this report the abusive language Overd and Stockwell used; they told people they were ‘depraved and ignorant’ and that those with different sexual mores were ‘filthy, depraved and perverted’.

Perhaps you omitted this because you recognise how offensive it actually is, perhaps because you’re desperate to represent Overd and Stockwell as martyrs when they’re not; perhaps because you know that the use of such language is not biblical and has nothing at all to do with the gospel.

These men should have known better; they didn’t and must now accept the consequences.

Busayo Adejuyigbe

he that killeth you will think that he doeth God service. not surprising…

Edwin Masters

The left who espouses and demands “tolerance” continues to display how intolerant they are of everyone who doesn’t agree with them–to the point of locking people up for speaking discomforting truth. The left is becoming completely totalitarian in their quest to replace biblical Christianity with pretty much anything else, whether that be a Christ-less form of religion or atheism.

Unfortunately, Christians generally want to just “get along” and not hold the line on truth, so over time the message changes so much that it is barely noticeable. Churches first become entertainment centers and then are abandoned as the power of the gospel is lost. Like Israel’s continuing cycle of falling away and being rescued, it is time we repent of our apathy and become renewed again.

http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

Quite wrong. The “left” as you refer, is intolerant of intolerance. We are constantly seeing religious conservatives scream from the rooftops anytime they feel the “government” is interfering with their lives, but then seek to use the government as a blunt instrument with which to bludgeon the rest of society to live by their religious beliefs.

If you do not want anyone telling you how to live, then stop telling others how to live. You marry the person you love, let others marry the person they love. PERIOD.

You wouldn’t like Islam taught or Muslim prayers said aloud in public schools, then Christians must not teach Christianity or give/present Christian prayers in public schools.

If you do not want your kids learning evolutionary science, then send your kids to a Christian school. Science is objective where religion is subjective. Only objective ideas can be taught in science (objective meaning independently verifiable as true or at least earning the title of “scientific theory”).

So, bottom line is; just worship, believe and live as you wish, but let others do the same. It’s called freedom.

http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

I know that Jackson’s statements disturb Christians, but let me restate the logic:

One’s religion is most often a matter of how and where one is born—into which society, which religion, which family. A child is born neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Muslim, nor atheist, nor an adherent to any other brand of religious or philosophical order. A child is born a human being with an ability to learn. and from this raw material society builds her walls of nationalism, prejudice and religious certitude.

Therefore, people who believe in any particular religion believe it because it is what they were taught from tot-hood to believe. Had a person who is now a Christian been born to a Muslim family, or a Hindu family, or any other, he would most likely have grown up to believe it exclusively. Had Christians happen to have been born to a radical Muslim family, most likely he would be a radical Muslim.

This is logic that cannot be refuted and the popularity of any religion is not a reflection of its truth. After all, consider that Islam is currently growing faster than Christianity.

Most religions, as well as the non-religious, share one certain tenet, stated in verious ways, that I consider the greatest of all.

In Christianity: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31, King James Version;

In Islam: “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” Number 13 of Imam Al-Nawawi’s Forty Hadiths;

In Buddhism: “…a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta Nikaya v. 353;

In Brahmanism: “This is the sum of Dharma (duty): Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you.” Mahabharata, 5:1517;

In Secular Humanism: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”;

In Judaism: “What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary.” Talmud, Shabbat 31a;

In Confucianism: “When one cultivates to the utmost the principles of his nature, and exercises them on the principle of reciprocity, he is not far from the path. What you do not like when done to yourself, do not do to others.” Confucius, Doctrine of the Mean.
————————-
But the largest religions (especially the Abrahamic religions) have built strong, high walls of exclusive tenets that crushed this greatest tenet beneath, and it is the ONLY tenet that forms the path to world peace and brotherhood.

I ask you folks on this blog; Could there be a good and compassionate god who condemns billions of souls to eternal torture for having been taught to believe the “wrong” religion?

Since adherents to other faiths believe their “truths” every bit as passionately as the Christian believes his, how do you know you were taught the right one? Because you have the Bible? Other religions have their scriptures as well and believe they were given by their god.

Where is the common ground? Only in the aforementioned Golden Rule. If all people were to adopt that single tenet and discard all the rest, what benevolent god could possibly disapprove?

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