There has been an overt move on the part of some change freedom of religion to freedom of worship.

If freedom extends to worship, then freedom is placed in the context of one hour spent in church per week. every religious institution which is not directly involved with worship, such as hospitals and schools, and every religious activity which is not worship itself, is open to control.

[quote="TimothyH, post:4, topic:297741"]
There has been an overt move on the part of some change freedom of religion to freedom of worship.

If freedom extends to worship, then freedom is placed in the context of one hour spent in church per week. every religious institution which is not directly involved with worship, such as hospitals and schools, and every religious activity which is not worship itself, is open to control.

[quote="JonNC, post:5, topic:297741"]
Precisely, Tim. Hence, the HHS mandate, and the targeted attack on Tabor Hosanna School (Lutheran) and the ministerial exception.

Jon

[/quote]

I have no idea what the Tabor Hosanna School or the ministerial exception is.

I do know that underneath it all, the current HHS regulations have nothing to do with freedom or religion. The secular government is just a tool. The whole thing has everything to do with sin. It has to do with the enemy using secular government to enact laws which help people to sin. Its about contracetion and sin.

It has to do with the spirit of Satan guiding secular governments to create laws which command that God's holy Church provide contraception to its members so that they can more easily sin. It's about satan promoting contraception so that people can sin and spend eternity in hell.

That's what its about - sin.

Freedom of religion is just the part of the iceberg we see above the water. Underneath the water line there is a battle raging, and Satan is trying to collect souls by promoting the sin of contraception.

[quote="TimothyH, post:4, topic:297741"]
There has been an overt move on the part of some change freedom of religion to freedom of worship.

If freedom extends to worship, then freedom is placed in the context of one hour spent in church per week. every religious institution which is not directly involved with worship, such as hospitals and schools, and every religious activity which is not worship itself, is open to control.

-Tim-

[/quote]

True, but "open to control" is not quite the same as "under control", and a state which allows gay marriage but does not require religious institutions to perform gay marriages is a demonstration of that.

As ConstantineTG says, we (or at least most of us), live in post-Christian or non-Christian societies, and I am not sure that that is a bad thing for the Church, given the way that secular politics tends to taint whatever it touches. Living in societies which will not take our word on moral issues is good reason for us to work harder at demonstrating the value of what we have to offer, and also to work harder at teaching people principles which they can independently apply, not just rules which they must follow because we say so.

[quote="Mystophilus, post:7, topic:297741"]
True, but "open to control" is not quite the same as "under control", and a state which allows gay marriage but does not require religious institutions to perform gay marriages is a demonstration of that.

As ConstantineTG says, we (or at least most of us), live in post-Christian or non-Christian societies, and I am not sure that that is a bad thing for the Church, given the way that secular politics tends to taint whatever it touches. Living in societies which will not take our word on moral issues is good reason for us to work harder at demonstrating the value of what we have to offer, and also to work harder at teaching people principles which they can independently apply, not just rules which they must follow because we say so.

[/quote]

I believe my Church speaks with the authority of Christ. I believe my Church is the mouthpiece of Christ.

With all due respect, it is article 15 of the 1930 Lambeth conference which started this whole mess.

[quote="TimothyH, post:8, topic:297741"]
I believe my Church speaks with the authority of Christ. I believe my Church is the mouthpiece of Christ.

[/quote]

I appreciate that, but you can see the problem when "Christ says X" runs up against "I do not believe in your Christ". When our value-systems become so alien to others, we need to find new arguments which are meaningful to our audience if we expect to convince them to do what we, by the Grace of God, have learnt to be right. Otherwise, we end up standing on street corners, haranguing people who have been given no reason to believe that our particular philosophy is the right one.

With all due respect, it is article 15 of the 1930 Lambeth conference which started this whole mess.

I would hardly attribute that much influence to Anglicanism, let alone to one article of one conference, especially considering that that conference was a product of its own times, which were a product of the decades and even centuries before them. We could go back to the Enlightenment, back to the Renaissance, or even back to the Fall of Rome for sources of these processes and ideas, but I would suggest that we should instead just be looking at the nature of humans.

One of the things which humans want is the freedom to enjoy themselves, and we need to convince them that their enjoyments will cause themselves suffering if we expect them to stop.

I do know that underneath it all, the current HHS regulations have nothing to do with freedom or religion. The secular government is just a tool. The whole thing has everything to do with sin. It has to do with the enemy using secular government to enact laws which help people to sin. Its about contracetion and sin.

It has to do with the spirit of Satan guiding secular governments to create laws which command that God's holy Church provide contraception to its members so that they can more easily sin. It's about satan promoting contraception so that people can sin and spend eternity in hell.

That's what its about - sin.

Freedom of religion is just the part of the iceberg we see above the water. Underneath the water line there is a battle raging, and Satan is trying to collect souls by promoting the sin of contraception.

[quote="CWN_News, post:1, topic:297741"]
Following a papal audience, Lithuania's new ambassador to the Holy See told Vatican Radio that Pope Benedict is concerned about "the narrowing of the freedom of faith to mere freedom of ...

This is what the Bishops keep pointing out. That the general moral relativism is endangering the real practice of our most holy faith. What good is a religion that is only practiced on Sundays and in that privacy or in our own homes?

If the government wants Catholics to shut up and sit down about morality then it’s barking up the whole wrong tree. That’s the problem. So long as the state gets to say what religions can and cannot do then there’s going to be conflict.

There is absolutely no reason that faithful Catholics should ever be mandated to support anything that is defined by the Church as intrinsically evil.

Prayer for the Protection of Religious Liberty

O God our Creator,
from your provident hand we have received
our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
You have called us as your people and given us
the right and the duty to worship you, the only true God,
and your Son, Jesus Christ.
Through the power and working of your Holy Spirit,
you call us to live out our faith in the midst of the world,
bringing the light and the saving truth of the Gospel
to every corner of society.
We ask you to bless us
in our vigilance for the gift of religious liberty.
Give us the strength of mind and heart
to readily defend our freedoms when they are threatened;
give us courage in making our voices heard
on behalf of the rights of your Church
and the freedom of conscience of all people of faith.
Grant, we pray, O heavenly Father,
a clear and united voice to all your sons and daughters
gathered in your Church
in this decisive hour in the history of our nation,
so that, with every trial withstood
and every danger overcome—
for the sake of our children, our grandchildren,
and all who come after us—
this great land will always be "one nation, under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.

[quote="ConstantineTG, post:3, topic:297741"]
We live in a post-Christian society. We should accept the fact that governments are not going to do us any favors anymore. We do not have Holy Roman Emperors or Tsars or Kings submissive to the Pope.

[quote="Church_Militant, post:12, topic:297741"]
This is what the Bishops keep pointing out. That the general moral relativism is endangering the real practice of our most holy faith. What good is a religion that is only practiced on Sundays and in that privacy or in our own homes?

If the government wants Catholics to shut up and sit down about morality then it's barking up the whole wrong tree. That's the problem. So long as the state gets to say what religions can and cannot do then there's going to be conflict.

There is absolutely no reason that faithful Catholics should ever be mandated to support anything that is defined by the Church as intrinsically evil.

Prayer for the Protection of Religious Liberty

O God our Creator,

from your provident hand we have received
our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
You have called us as your people and given us
the right and the duty to worship you, the only true God,
and your Son, Jesus Christ.
Through the power and working of your Holy Spirit,
you call us to live out our faith in the midst of the world,
bringing the light and the saving truth of the Gospel
to every corner of society.
We ask you to bless us
in our vigilance for the gift of religious liberty.
Give us the strength of mind and heart
to readily defend our freedoms when they are threatened;
give us courage in making our voices heard
on behalf of the rights of your Church
and the freedom of conscience of all people of faith.

Grant, we pray, O heavenly Father,
a clear and united voice to all your sons and daughters
gathered in your Church
in this decisive hour in the history of our nation,
so that, with every trial withstood
and every danger overcome—
for the sake of our children, our grandchildren,
and all who come after us—
this great land will always be "one nation, under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

[quote="CWN_News, post:1, topic:297741"]
Following a papal audience, Lithuania's new ambassador to the Holy See told Vatican Radio that Pope Benedict is concerned about "the narrowing of the freedom of faith to mere freedom of ...

This is what the Bishops keep pointing out. That the general moral relativism is endangering the real practice of our most holy faith. What good is a religion that is only practiced on Sundays and in that privacy or in our own homes?

If the government wants Catholics to shut up and sit down about morality then it’s barking up the whole wrong tree. That’s the problem. So long as the state gets to say what religions can and cannot do then there’s going to be conflict.

There is absolutely no reason that faithful Catholics should ever be mandated to support anything that is defined by the Church as intrinsically evil.

Prayer for the Protection of Religious Liberty

O God our Creator,
from your provident hand we have received
our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
You have called us as your people and given us
the right and the duty to worship you, the only true God,
and your Son, Jesus Christ.
Through the power and working of your Holy Spirit,
you call us to live out our faith in the midst of the world,
bringing the light and the saving truth of the Gospel
to every corner of society.
We ask you to bless us
in our vigilance for the gift of religious liberty.
Give us the strength of mind and heart
to readily defend our freedoms when they are threatened;
give us courage in making our voices heard
on behalf of the rights of your Church
and the freedom of conscience of all people of faith.
Grant, we pray, O heavenly Father,
a clear and united voice to all your sons and daughters
gathered in your Church
in this decisive hour in the history of our nation,
so that, with every trial withstood
and every danger overcome—
for the sake of our children, our grandchildren,
and all who come after us—
this great land will always be "one nation, under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
Amen.

A lot of the Bishops are part of the problem. If they had bothered to READ the health care law before signing off on it, this whole contraception nonsense would not be that much of a surprise to them.

The need to understand who and what is targeting our religious freedom, and it is the democrat party, pure, plain and simple.

If the USCCB is going to weigh on politics, and they should in certain instances, then they had better take a serious look at the democrats, social justice and union benefits instead of giving the green light on this stuff because it sounds good.

Otherwise they risk running the sin of scandal and misleading their flock to what only will be a disaster.

[quote="SuperLuigi, post:16, topic:297741"]
A lot of the Bishops are part of the problem. If they had bothered to READ the health care law before signing off on it, this whole contraception nonsense would not be that much of a surprise to them.

The need to understand who and what is targeting our religious freedom, and it is the democrat party, pure, plain and simple.

If the USCCB is going to weigh on politics, and they should in certain instances, then they had better take a serious look at the democrats, social justice and union benefits instead of giving the green light on this stuff because it sounds good.

Otherwise they risk running the sin of scandal and misleading their flock to what only will be a disaster.

[/quote]

Better check the USCCB site then SL, because the bishops have stated that this was unacceptable from the outset, just as laws denying objections of conscience are.

Truthfully, it doesn't matter which party is in office because they all try to tell you they are whatever will get them elected and then do nothing on the moral issues like abortion, while the massacre continues.

My wife says that she wants a ballot option that reads "None of the Above". I agree.

Universal health care IS a good thing. This particular effort involves Catholics being forced to support intrinsic evils, and no one knew this was going to be the case until the mandate came out. The bishops have been on this since that time, so you're kinda barking up the wrong tree IMO.

[quote="Church_Militant, post:17, topic:297741"]
Better check the USCCB site then SL, because the bishops have stated that this was unacceptable from the outset, just as laws denying objections of conscience are.

Truthfully, it doesn't matter which party is in office because they all try to tell you they are whatever will get them elected and then do nothing on the moral issues like abortion, while the massacre continues.

My wife says that she wants a ballot option that reads "None of the Above". I agree.

Universal health care IS a good thing. This particular effort involves Catholics being forced to support intrinsic evils, and no one knew this was going to be the case until the mandate came out. The bishops have been on this since that time, so you're kinda barking up the wrong tree IMO.

[/quote]

In my opinion, Michael, universal healthcare cannot be a good thin if it is run by a secular government. A secular government will always step on individual liberties, including religion, to regulate and control it. We won't get universal health care without compromise of indvivdual rights.

Obama is pushing an agenda through the health care law. Sadly, there are powerful lobbies such as the same sex marriage lobby and planned parenthood that seem to have enough sway with people that we could see Obama winning a second term. Some Catholics have gone so far as to suggest that the HHS mandate is not a problem because nobody has to ask for contraception. Truth is, because of the gay lobby, Catholic adoption services in some parts of the country have closed down. Now planned parenthood wants to promote birth control and because birth control often fails, abortion.
More Catholic institutions will have to close their doors because they cannot cover or in any way participate in the distribution of contraceptives or provision of abortion.

Obama didn't participate in the Christian day of prayer in a Christian nation, but he participated in a muslim day of prayer. Obama is showing preferential treatment here, Catholicism he attacks but Islam gets recognition. Obama shouldn't be more favorable
to one faith tradition than another nor should he be attacking Catholicism with the HHS mandate, but he is. Nobody can be certain that the Supreme court will recognize conscientious objection as a religious right. Abortion is still on the books even with Jane Doe an ardent pro lifer today, which is not encouraging.

What is the deal with the Susan G. Komen foundation? The foundation should be promoting women's breast health but instead it is coming out against motherhood,
which ironically deccreases a woman's chances of contracting breast cancer.

What I see is that radical politicians are getting elected and the center has fallen out.
I will vote for Romney even though he is the lesser of two evils because that is my moral obligation. Long term, we need to pray that the center comes back and we also need to pray that our nation will remain Christian.

Even though muslims are dangerously misguided and generally they can't be trusted, muslims are people where hating them will get us nowhere. That said, the killing of American diplomats and support personnel was unacceptable where the guilty must be tried, and if found guilty, they must serve a life sentence.

Consider whether or not you have been to confession lately and consider the little sins that can lead to bigger sins. Confess the little sins before they have a chance to become big ones. Being good Catholics is about setting a good example and demonstrating what religious freedom really is.

This is not a political thread. This is about the fact that our government, (and the governments of several other western nations) are taking steps to mandate that religious freedom is limited to freedom of worship without stating so, and we cannot sit by and allow that to happen here.

The effect then is that our religion becomes confined within the churches itself, and I can assure you that with that, further infringement will then occur that will (as has happened in several other Western countries) then class our statements of moral teachings as "hate speech" and prosecuting/persecuting us accordingly.

This is all very much about the culture war that has erupted for us here in the U.S. in particular.

We Catholics face a very serious threat and grim choices that must be made if intend to be faithful to our most holy faith.