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The city yards at 95st along the LRT tracks should be relocated to this location when ETS moves out. Public works has something like 4 non-contiguous lots there. And as much as the city wants to redevelop the blatchford area to higher use, they also want to redevelop the quarters, and those yards are much more desirable than the Westwood site in the long term.

I find it regrettable that they would put a transit garage in that brownfield location. IMHO, we already have way too many city owned yards along the NE LRT line. The old Capital Packers/Imperial Lumber site is twice the size as Station Pointe and could house twice the units without all the expropriation hassles. The CN line only touches the extreme NE corner and we could put a simple LRT station with direct access to the site.

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

It's pretty much cut off from everything else around it. LRT to the east, Yellowhead to the south, CN tracks to the north. Once 66 st access to the Yellowhead is cut off then the only access will be via Fort Road. Can't really see the use of a LRT station there. It's not like the area is going to get a TOD. Perhaps some retail along Fort Rod with the garage in the back would be best.

^agreed other than it is a nice central site. I had hoped for a power centre!

I believe that Gene Dubb owned the NE end and Rona owned the SW end at one time.

Originally Posted by kkozoriz

It's pretty much cut off from everything else around it. LRT to the east, Yellowhead to the south, CN tracks to the north. Once 66 st access to the Yellowhead is cut off then the only access will be via Fort Road. Can't really see the use of a LRT station there. It's not like the area is going to get a TOD. Perhaps some retail along Fort Rod with the garage in the back would be best.

Same could be said for Station Pointe and we spent millions on that spot.

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

^agreed other than it is a nice central site. I had hoped for a power centre!

I believe that Gene Dubb owned the NE end and Rona owned the SW end at one time.

Originally Posted by kkozoriz

It's pretty much cut off from everything else around it. LRT to the east, Yellowhead to the south, CN tracks to the north. Once 66 st access to the Yellowhead is cut off then the only access will be via Fort Road. Can't really see the use of a LRT station there. It's not like the area is going to get a TOD. Perhaps some retail along Fort Rod with the garage in the back would be best.

Same could be said for Station Pointe and we spent millions on that spot.

Except for the fact that there's people living across the street from there and the fact that there's already an LRT station a block away, yeah, it's exactly the same.

I agree. I think this site has a lot of potential to be a TOD. They could rebuild the LRT bridge over Yellowhead with a new station. The new bridge could be expanded to allow for improved Fort Rd interchange ramps in the future. There would be room for two entrances off of Fort Rd, as well as one on 66 St by the LRT crossing.

The cryptic one sentence explanation refers to design scope changes and changes in construction costs.

Regardless, since the Administration made the recommendation to replace rather than upgrade the Westwood garage, you would think a fuller explanation is in order. Instead the revised cost estimate gets buried in an attachment.

^Did not ask for an indepth report, asked for a fuller explanation of why the replacement transit garage cost has more than doubled.

The $7 million Rossdale power plant stabilization gets a full explanation in the main Council report and its own attachment. A $168 million escalation in the cost of replacing the Westwood garage gets no mention in the main Council report, and a cryptic two sentence explanation in an attachment.

Did they want to add the Westwood Garage lands to the Blatchford redevelopment or perhaps to an upcoming NAIT expansion? To me it seems there is probably a bit more to this proposal than just replacing a garage with a larger one but a long term proposal that affects the future of the area.

^Blatchford redevelopment was one of the stated reasons. According to the Business Case prepared by the Administration: "In the 2012-2014 Council budget deliberations, staff recommended the construction of a new bus transit garage in place of renovating the old Westwood bus transit garage. Reasons included – better value in new facility, better operational efficiency and more options for expansion. Also, the current site of the old Westwood facility was on prime property for redevelopment to a better use as part of the City Centre Airport redevelopment project. Staff developed a plan that would keep old Westwood facility operational until 2016 while design and construction of a new facility was completed."
Link to Administration Reports here: http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/a...s&itemid=25840

Sounds silly. The Westwood site is between several other industrial sites, so it's really only valuable as industrial, not the same value as high-density residential. So same value as Westwood.

I wonder what percentage of the increased costs are to accommodate natural gas buses, there are significant challenges involved. Because whatever costs are involved should be taken into account in any decision to buy/use natural gas buses, and not bundled into the price of this facility.

Sounds silly. The Westwood site is between several other industrial sites, so it's really only valuable as industrial, not the same value as high-density residential. So same value as Westwood.

I wonder what percentage of the increased costs are to accommodate natural gas buses, there are significant challenges involved. Because whatever costs are involved should be taken into account in any decision to buy/use natural gas buses, and not bundled into the price of this facility.

The costs to tear down the existing garage, clean up the site, do the environmental remediation and put in services for residential are probably way more than the site will be worth on the market for residential. This does include the costs of building a new garage on a different site.

This is the same false economy as the the lieutenant-governor's official residence where they said it would cost too much to repair it ($400,000), and tore it down. A few years later the costs skyrocketed past $5,300,000. That report was in 2007 and here we sit and nothing will be completed till at least 2015. I wonder how much the total bill will be when you include 10 years of a "temporary" residence, all the planning, management, construction inflation and government bureaucracy that have been involved in this project.

A government spokesman estimated in 2004 it would cost $400,000 to bring the house up to standard, calling it a "money pit."

Critics called the demolition a waste of money.

"The history of the official residences in Alberta is very interesting -- including past occurrences of neglect and subsequent costly repair and replacement," former lieutenant-governor Helen Hunley once wrote in a letter to The Journal.

EDMONTON - Three years after the provincial government demolished the lieutenant-governor's official residence because it was too costly to renovate, a new house for the Queen's representative will start going up this summer (2007) at a total cost of $5.3 million.

IMHO, Westwood should stay where it is rather than building another hugely expensive garage in another location. If the land is so valuable, then place it on the market and see what offers come forth. I bet the offers would be few and not cover even the demolition and environmental remediation. Alternately, reuse the building like the fantastic Old Strathcona Market in the former bus barns. It could become a plaza, business condo within walking distance of the new homes, or many other uses.

Let's use out of the box thinking rather than our history of bringing out the wrecking ball first and regretting it the day after. Want me to list just some of the past regrets in Edmonton?

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

Sounds silly. The Westwood site is between several other industrial sites, so it's really only valuable as industrial, not the same value as high-density residential. So same value as Westwood.

I wonder what percentage of the increased costs are to accommodate natural gas buses, there are significant challenges involved. Because whatever costs are involved should be taken into account in any decision to buy/use natural gas buses, and not bundled into the price of this facility.

"between", not for long.

Don't think this is at all clear. Removal of the Alberta Forest Service and EPCOR buildings/yards immediately to the north is not contemplated in the most recent Blatchford drawings on the City website.

City Council made the original decision when the costs were $128 million for replacing and $66 million for upgrading (see report above). Now that the replacement option cost has ballooned to $308 million, it's time for another look.

Ya know, not everything needs to be cost effective. Sometimes you need to take a big whallop in the pocketbook to set bigger things in motion for the future. I'm far more concerned with making sure we don't blow this opportunity than I am with the cost.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

Sounds silly. The Westwood site is between several other industrial sites, so it's really only valuable as industrial, not the same value as high-density residential. So same value as Westwood.

I wonder what percentage of the increased costs are to accommodate natural gas buses, there are significant challenges involved. Because whatever costs are involved should be taken into account in any decision to buy/use natural gas buses, and not bundled into the price of this facility.

"between", not for long.

Don't think this is at all clear. Removal of the Alberta Forest Service and EPCOR buildings/yards immediately to the north is not contemplated in the most recent Blatchford drawings on the City website.

City Council made the original decision when the costs were $128 million for replacing and $66 million for upgrading (see report above). Now that the replacement option cost has ballooned to $308 million, it's time for another look.

It is the old bait and switch shell game. The City Administration are experts at this tactic. Make a proposal with a low-ball number. Get City Council to commit and then hit them with the real numbers once you get past the point of no return.

Want me to list just some of the past examples in Edmonton?

When will Council ever learn?

The Charlie Brown Syndrome

Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 12-12-2013 at 01:19 PM.

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

How do you spell....paranoid? You see. From the point of an initiation, other ideas pop up over the year/s and expanded scope, usually means, options (efficiencies) are brought to the table and bingo, you have a better facility.

City Council has directed Administration to report back to the Transportation Committee on March 5, 2014 with a fuller explanation of the scope changes to the Westwood replacement garage including the business case for natural gas buses (see December 11, 2013 draft minutes, Item 6.7).

Punting the Westwood bus garage decision back to the Transportation Committee will allow for a fuller airing of the issue including an opportunity for Edmontonians to weigh in.

Replacing rather than upgrading the garage made sense when the cost differential was $62 million ($66 million rather than $128 million). Does it still make sense when the cost differential has ballooned to $180 million? If the decision is made to replace rather than upgrade, what will happen with the old garage including site remediation costs? In this regard, it needs to be pointed out that the old Cromdale garage has sat mostly empty and abandoned since its closure.

I agree with Highlander's point above. Depending on what portion of the increased cost is for accommodating natural gas buses, what are the projected operating savings that could justify this and over what timeframe?

Agreed on all points including the Chromdale garage comparison. The savings with NG buses do not outweigh the costs of maintenance, infrastructure and capital costs. 70+% of ETS's costs are labour and fuel costs are only a small portion of the budget.

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

The Westwood Garage replacement is back on the Transportation Committee's agenda.

A summary of the Administration report minus the bafflegab.

Administration is arguing strongly against upgrading the existing garage, now expected to cost $75 million. NAIT is lusting after the land and the Administration is having trouble beating them off with a stick. Besides, we've already bought the land for the replacement garage which is probably good for nothing other than growing weeds.

Administration is also scaling back its proposal for a replacement garage, giving up on natural gases buses and reducing capacity to 300 buses (same as Westwood). Cost- $196.4 million with a 2018 completion date.

I lived off Ft Road and 129ave for 6 years. There is no smell from the meat plant and the train noise is negligible.

Both of those are less obnoxious than your bad attitude and baseless opinions.

Ok smart guy, explain why (in your equally obnoxious/baseless/fruit-filled opinion) people are going to want to live in this area because omg, suddenly theres a ETS bus garage here.... Yes, people and developers have all been waiting for this magically ETS bus garage to appear before starting their developments.

Or is it because the area has little to no appeal, and the ETS bus garage won't change that?

I lived off Ft Road and 129ave for 6 years. There is no smell from the meat plant and the train noise is negligible.

Both of those are less obnoxious than your bad attitude and baseless opinions.

Ok smart guy, explain why (in your equally obnoxious/baseless/fruit-filled opinion) people are going to want to live in this area because omg, suddenly theres a ETS bus garage here.... Yes, people and developers have all been waiting for this magically ETS bus garage to appear before starting their developments.

Or is it because the area has little to no appeal, and the ETS bus garage won't change that?

Medwards .... How do you feel if you live in the area where there is lots of empty land around you ? Do you want to see it that land being redevelopment ?

Would love to see that land (re)developed. I have nothing against a bus garage going either.

I do have problems with the claim(s) that the new bus garage is going to spur other developments in this area... and the claim that a freight line is quiet. I will concede that the meat packing plant no longer smells up the area... cause its no longer there.

Yeah, right. As if any transit garage in this city has spurred on any benefits to the neighbourhood around it. Looks like the only investor in this massive boondoggle of land redevelopment by the City of Edmonton is...

wait for it

...the City of Edmonton. More taxpayers money to support wasted tax payers money.

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

I can't see building a new bus barn will do much to spur Station Pointe development. As for traffic it will impact somewhat but with Yellowhead, Capilano and 66th Street nearby for the most part it will not be significant. The bus barns near Terwillegar seem to have little impact on traffic.

Yeah, my office is two blocks from the one on 118 avenue and 156 street, and traffic wise it has minimal impact. Most of the buses are departing/arriving well before/after peak traffic periods, for obvious reasons.

I'd like to see the corresponding article on the to-be-abandoned westwood garage.
Made up quote:
"ETS transit garage will be relocating from Westwood in 2017, and is expected to leave a swath of abandoned properties in it's wake. "this neighbourhood is full of ETS employees who live here to be close to the garage" said the community league presedent. "with those employees all moving to Balwin we can expect home prices to crash and properties to sit abandoned, at least until NAIT's new facility opens. But who knows when that will happen."

Geez that guy is sounding like ETS is using a small nuclear bomb to tear down Westwood Garage. I think the LRT and student housing will rapidly infill any people that decide to move closer to the a new bus barn.

Buses won't affect the road. It's only busy during rush hours, and the buses will be out on their routes.

I'm not suggesting this will be a panacea for the stalled redevelopment by any means, however when you throw 700 jobs in ANY neighbourhood, things happen. Might be small, might be big, but it'll be something.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

there is no difference about having no development at station pointe because you see in Toronto there is lots of condo towers built quite close to Gardiner expressway. there are thousands of cars, buses and trucks is being passed by day and night. but for station pointe, CN train does not go through that much.

^Every development has its price point. Because of its location, Station Pointe's price point is still too high. Prospective buyers must think they can get superior value in a better location at a comparable price.

How else to explain the expenditure of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars to create amenities and yet no housing units are even on the horizon, let alone under construction?

Lets see... Downtown Toronto near all the attractions in a skyscraper, versus a wood frame 4 storey building in a less desirable area of town minus all the attractions and amenities that downtown Toronto offers, plus a rail line that will be increasingly used over the coming years as pipelines stall but rail capacity increases.

^Every development has its price point. Because of its location, Station Pointe's price point is still too high. Prospective buyers must think they can get superior value in a better location at a comparable price.

How else to explain the expenditure of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars to create amenities and yet no housing units are even on the horizon, let alone under construction?

The thing is, very little of that money actually went to anything that could be called an amenity. Most of it went to buying out businesses and land, and widening a busy road, making it harder to cross and, at least in my eyes, significantly less attractive as a nearby resident. The sidewalks are fancy, and there are a few benches, but the sidewalks don't go anywhere and the benches sit facing 6+ lanes of traffic.

^Every development has its price point. Because of its location, Station Pointe's price point is still too high. Prospective buyers must think they can get superior value in a better location at a comparable price.

How else to explain the expenditure of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars to create amenities and yet no housing units are even on the horizon, let alone under construction?

The thing is, very little of that money actually went to anything that could be called an amenity. Most of it went to buying out businesses and land, and widening a busy road, making it harder to cross and, at least in my eyes, significantly less attractive as a nearby resident. The sidewalks are fancy, and there are a few benches, but the sidewalks don't go anywhere and the benches sit facing 6+ lanes of traffic.

agreed... they messed up when they did the Fort Road re-design by making it so unfriendly

there is no difference about having no development at station pointe because you see in Toronto there is lots of condo towers built quite close to Gardiner expressway. there are thousands of cars, buses and trucks is being passed by day and night. but for station pointe, CN train does not go through that much.

I was referring to the ones between BMO field and Rogers Center. on Lakeshore Blvd and Queens Quay area.... you know, right along the lake shore. But I guess that must be the same as living in NE Edmonton along fort road...

One thing that needs to be remembered: right across Ft Road from Station Point, are dozens of condos, including some 8-12 stories tall. On the corner of 66st and Ft Road, a crappy strip mall was torn down and a new building is under construction. There IS demand in the area, it's just slow going.

Those 700 jobs there can only increase the pace.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

It is still surprising how much land lies undeveloped around Clareview Stn. To me that is even a poorly thought out TOD. It is surrounded by too many big box stores and not enough high density apts and condos. They should have moved the NE bound Manning drive 100 meters NW to allow more units. Why even think about extending to Gorman until they fill in Belvedere and Clareview?

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

I'm not trying to argue that Fort Road is a great location, but people elsewhere seem to have no problem investing in property in less than ideal locations

Lets see,

Toronto example
+ Lakeshore
+ BMO Field/ Rogers Center / Air Canada Center near by
+ Close to CBD and all the amenities available in central Toronto
+ Great Transit service at your doorstep
-Road noise/train noise in a well built high rise with good sound proofing (might be an issue for the first 15 floors

^ I grew up in Belvedere and lived in Toronto for nearly 4 years. Medwards gets it.

Much of the cost for the Fort Road redevelopment was not planned. 2 kilometers of 42" storm pipe, a kilometer of retaining wall, rewiring the electrical grid, reduction in the plans from 1,600 units to 1,000

Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 09-12-2014 at 04:12 PM.

Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

^ I grew up in Belvedere and lived in Toronto for nearly 4 years. Medwards gets it.

Much of the cost for the Fort Road redevelopment was not planned. 2 kilometers of 42" storm pipe, a kilometer of retaining wall, rewiring the electrical grid, reduction in the plans from 1,600 units to 1,000

I spent 3 years in Toronto. I'm with you & Matt.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

Those condos sitting on the Gardiner are probably pretty cheap due to being in a less than ideal location

If by cheap you mean really really expensive, some of the highest $/sqft in this great nation of ours ... sure, probably. and if by "less than ideal location" you mean "location, location, location" ... sure!

Originally Posted by 240GLT

The price point needs to be low at Fort Road for the same reason

What advantages/benefits are there to living on Fort Road? The transit hotel and liquor store? At least in Toronto, you have everything you could EVER want within immediate walking distance.

Originally Posted by 240GLT

There are lots of better affordable locations in the city, so this one has stalled for the time being

Well, you're certainly correct here, and no bus garage in the immediate vicinity will make this area anymore desirable. Those better affordable locations will take many decades to infill in before anyone really will start looking this way for condo life.

Originally Posted by 240GLT

BTW, much of the construction at Fort Road was due to be concrete

Right, but noise at 15 floors and more versus a max of 5-8 floors? You'll notice all/most of the those towers along gardiner have big podiums and non-residential things on the first many floors.

Now if someone used a real comparable... like say Strathcona Junction.... near the CP railyard on the southside...

^ That's way higher than I thought Fort road would be.
*edit*: Just checked, the TOD itself is a 48, and that's counting "Lucky Lucky Food mart" As groceries, and stuff along 50st that you can't walk to without strolling down 131ave.

there is no difference about having no development at station pointe because you see in Toronto there is lots of condo towers built quite close to Gardiner expressway. there are thousands of cars, buses and trucks is being passed by day and night. but for station pointe, CN train does not go through that much.

The city’s largest call for a single public art piece to-date went out Wednesday, with the total project at the Northeast Transit garage worth $1 million.

It’s a new record for the city, with other public art pieces not coming close to the total for a singular piece of art.

“Since this site has so much going on around it, is visible from great distances as well up close, the decision as made we’d go for a large piece for the most impact,” said Eva Marie Clarke, Edmonton Arts Council communications co-ordinator.

This will be another Talus Dome: great piece, wrong location. This will be a light industrial yard with no pedestrian use. View of the art will be wasted by those driving by. Seriously CoE, put it where it will be seen and appreciated.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

I'd like to see the stack incorporated in the art. Imagine it were wrapped in big bright ribbons, being "climbed" by a fanciful beast, or with a stained glass lantern on the top, lit up at night to be seen by LRT Riders.

Oh, and there should be access from the new and underused bike path along the tracks to get to the stack and whatever art appears. Otherwise we're spending $1m on a decoration for a place for bus drivers on split shifts to smoke and eat lunch.

I'd like to see the stack incorporated in the art. Imagine it were wrapped in big bright ribbons, being "climbed" by a fanciful beast, or with a stained glass lantern on the top, lit up at night to be seen by LRT Riders.

Oh, and there should be access from the new and underused bike path along the tracks to get to the stack and whatever art appears. Otherwise we're spending $1m on a decoration for a place for bus drivers on split shifts to smoke and eat lunch.

Disagree about the bike path. If they could properly connect a path from where it ends at the Coliseum, up along the tracks all the way to Clareview I think it would be hugely successful

As for the art installation.. it needs to be HUGE. I'm thinking about the massive eagle statue on the border between Baja Notre and Baja Sur in Mexico.