-Specifically, this would be the kvm, or MIDP, or whatever that J2ME stuff he's using is NOT J2SE.But is doesn't matter now, because it will be up in Google in < week with a BRAND NEW JON CARMACK quote of "really slow"

Someone, kill me...

[mod] For those of you that can discount Carmack as less relatvent now, etc....Well I see gobs of new students entering the industry every day and they don't. It may not be right or "youthful" but it matters. These are the guys that are growing the industry and there is always more of them than the older...Chris M, it's damage control time!

It's quite clear that he doesn't speak about J2SE. IMHO, the only damage control that could be done is improve J2ME implementations because as far as I can tell, JC is spot on about mobile java. I'm not sure what Chris can do about this.

That would be amazing damage control to release a faster J2ME implementation! - and that's not exactly damage control.

The issue is the use of the word Java.

He meant the J2ME implementation he was using. If he had worte that there would be no issue.He wrote "Java" in his defining sentence, which alone without the context of the entire article, is a very easyily eatable, quotable sentence that unfortunately is quite damaging.

It's quite clear that he doesn't speak about J2SE. IMHO, the only damage control that could be done is improve J2ME implementations because as far as I can tell, JC is spot on about mobile java. I'm not sure what Chris can do about this.

Releasing a faster J2ME, now that's damage control! (jk) But that's not the issue..He meant his J2ME inplementation was slow... but he wrote "Java"

That is not complete and has a huge implication. Carmack is entitled to his opinion (based quite correctly on his experience) but the fact the J2SE/EE and J2ME are VERY different technologies is important when it comes to statements like "... Java is really slow"

It's funny, just as we are making some headway with "Java" (J2SE), "Java" (J2ME) ruins the public picture again....Branding matters, I really with J2ME was called JavaLite of something!

I may have said before... but I don't really care any more about Java's reputation. The less people using it the better for me, as it gives me a sneaky advantage.

Cas

If you really believe that you are missing allot. An advantage would be stronger developer community, support from key people in the field (Carmack for example) and thus better business models and much easy venture capital and other industry support money...

Cas, you post allot about Sun giving you money to make games. But if people like Carmack gave Java a really good endorsement, you wouldn't need $$$ from Sun, the other multitude of game money channels would be more open to your development with Java. (and conversely, an ill placed criticism from industry leaders can greatly reduce adoption of Java, by the industry and new developers, sometimes even greater than all the mountain shouting on these forums...:-()

It seems to me that the only people who will take the "java is slow" quote literally, and not within the J2ME context, are not the people that really matter.But unfortunately, otoh, many people will not actually read the article and will only hear something from somebody who's friend told him his sister's boyfriend read somewhere that "Carmack said that Java is really slow".

If you really believe that you are missing allot. An advantage would be stronger developer community, support from key people in the field (Carmack for example) and thus better business models and much easy venture capital and other industry support money...

Cas, you post allot about Sun giving you money to make games. But if people like Carmack gave Java a really good endorsement, you wouldn't need $$$ from Sun, the other multitude of game money channels would be more open to your development with Java. (and conversely, an ill placed criticism from industry leaders can greatly reduce adoption of Java, by the industry and new developers, sometimes even greater than all the mountain shouting on these forums...:-()

...100% with Shawn here. Giving up is ... well, giving up. No matter how you look at it.

best quote - "To say that the J2SE (or J2EE) plaforms suck because a particular J2ME implementation is slow is like saying that internal combustion engines suck because your go-kart can only go 15 mph."

Its true that Java is slower than C++ for games. Something like 75%-95% compared to a C++ game. Carmack isn't saying any lie in here.

The main advantage of Java is in the flexibility and cleaness of the language. Using Java pays on the PCs for large and complex projects not in small games, unless we are talking about applet like games.

In mobiles it may be even more critical than in PCs. However mobile phones mostly have adopted Java so Carmack must stick to it wether he likes it or not.

The only thing that can boost Java as a credible technology for games is making a java game hit. And this won't happen with everyone doing his own tiny game instead of working together in one thing that can make some noise.

Sorry for being a little OT, but could it be possible to get everyone on these forums to make a game toegether?

Quote

Its true that Java is slower than C++ for games. Something like 75%-95% compared to a C++ game. Carmack isn't saying any lie in here.

The main advantage of Java is in the flexibility and cleaness of the language. Using Java pays on the PCs for large and complex projects not in small games, unless we are talking about applet like games.

In mobiles it may be even more critical than in PCs. However mobile phones mostly have adopted Java so Carmack must stick to it wether he likes it or not.

The only thing that can boost Java as a credible technology for games is making a java game hit. And this won't happen with everyone doing his own tiny game instead of working together in one thing that can make some noise.

best quote - "To say that the J2SE (or J2EE) plaforms suck because a particular J2ME implementation is slow is like saying that internal combustion engines suck because your go-kart can only go 15 mph."

I have to say I am pleasantly surprised!

How about this one?

"...Carmack is way over-estimating performance of most phones. Only the highest-end Java phones support 200k jar sizes. The majority of consumer phones are limited to 64k - even many brand new phones have this limitation. On the other hand, he's not being 100% fair with his GBA comparison. Gameboy, GBC, and Gameboy Advance all have tile-based rendering that is easily capable of 60fps, while Java-based (and BREW-based) cell phones have only linear frame buffers that you don't get direct access to (usually). To aggravate things, many Samsung BREW phones have 250ms response rates.

Carmack will also be disappointed when he begins experimenting with BREW. BREW doesn't support threading, globals, or even static variables. I'm not even going to get started on the bizarre latencies of the API.

One of my jobs as a cellphone developer is to port Java games to BREW. Carmack's comments about how fast Java phones play like 4.77MHz IBMs is true, but the same is true for BREW phones as well. I've only managed to squeeze another 10% out of the performance on similar BREW phones. There are a lot of things limiting cellphone performance, but Java isn't one of the main culprits. Bad platform design and slow hardware are what kills it."

But it does show how the *hardware industry* has stagnated because of the need to be compatible. Cell phone hardware seems to really suck. Imagine if they just made one cell phone that emulated a Commodore 64 at full speed... tonnes of fun games would be instantly available. Don't whine to me about 64k jars

4.77 MHz is luxury. I remember the Amiga computers ran at 3.58MHz and for a 2D gaming platform it ruled in it's time

Only, the Motorola MC68000 in the Amiga 500 ran at 7.14 Mhz

As for Carmacks article I think the controls and small screen size is a bigger contributor to mobile phone games sucking then the performance. The only games I've played on mobile phones that works is simple puzzle games and they don't require that advanced graphics.

Further, my experience is that the only time people are playing games on their mobile phones is when they are away from home and waiting for something. So only games with a rather short playing time should work.

But I must add, I done alot of commuting with public transportations the last 7 years (an environment that should make alot of people bored and start playing games.) and I haven't seen that many mobile games players and this is in Sweden that has a high adoption of mobile phones. My experience is that listening to music, sending SMS and reading books are way bigger time killers

Further, my experience is that the only time people are playing games on their mobile phones is when they are away from home and waiting for something. So only games with a rather short playing time should work.

According to a session on this specifically @ GDC 2005, that's a common misconception. They gave facts and figures from surveys that show "commuters JUST DONT PLAY games"

Predicting, in fact, that on any given day, you'll see:

Quote

But I must add, I done alot of commuting with public transportations the last 7 years (an environment that should make alot of people bored and start playing games.) and I haven't seen that many mobile games players and this is in Sweden that has a high adoption of mobile phones. My experience is that listening to music, sending SMS and reading books are way bigger time killers

Commuters are almost as likely to play a game on their *laptop* as on a mobile phone, apparently.

Commuters are almost as likely to play a game on their *laptop* as on a mobile phone, apparently.

I guess this depends on the culture more than anything else. I take the subway several times in a day in Seoul, Korea. There are always bleeps and bloops in any given car from someone playing a game on their cell phone. During the morning rush hour it's rare I suppose, since most people have their noses buried in newpapers and schoolbooks. But during the rest of the day it's quite a common sight. I remember a year ago or so the noises from the cell phone games were quite annoying, but now it's just part of the environment.

java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites,
and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily
gaming and game production oriented community.
inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the
company managing the website of java‑gaming.org