Tuesday, August 16, 2011

﻿Hall of Justice to be RenovatedChristina Villacorte, Staff Writer - 08/13/2011LANDMARK: Historic downtown building, damaged by the Northridge Earthquake and abandoned, is getting a $231M renovation and a new life. Cloaked in shadows, the bars of the jail cell that once housed Charles Manson slide open with a rumble that echoes eerily across the vastness of the abandoned Hall of Justice. At the entrance of the decrepit building in downtown Los Angeles, a grand staircase leads up to a foyer with marble walls, stately columns and gilded ceilings. All are grimy from neglect - but not for much longer. The Hall is poised to begin a $231 million renovation this month, nearly 17 years after it was forced to shut down due to damage from the Northridge Earthquake. Contractors Clark Construction Group and AC Martin Partners will begin the painstaking work of restoring the structural integrity of a landmark that opened in 1925, and transforming it into a modern-day office space that also maintains some nods to the past. The Hall saw its share of history while housing the headquarters of the sheriff, district attorney, public defender, coroner and Superior Court for nearly 70 years, since the time Model T Fords rumbled down the streets of Los Angeles. The autopsies of Robert Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe were conducted at the Hall, as were the trials of Manson and Sirhan Sirhan. Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel, Richard "The Nightstalker" Ramirez and actor Robert Mitchum also were behind bars there. When daredevil Evel Knievel was arrested on assault charges, he ordered a fleet of limousines to drive up to the Hall and pick him up, as well as about 20 other inmates being released on the same day. "We can't go back in time and be a part of that anymore, but the fact that the building has those stories, and you can walk through it, it's as close as you're going to get to re-creating history," said Alicia Ramos, who oversees the renovation project for the county Department of Public Works.

The Hall of Justice had served as Sheriff's Headquarters from 1925 to 1994.http://www.dailynews.com/politics/ci_18678296In addition to its place in history and practical use as a headquarters, it is a fiscally responsible project. Most of the renovation costs will be offset by the termination of other property lease obligations of the county agencies that will move into the structure, as well as currently lowered construction costs resulting from the slow economy. This move will place Sheriff Baca and Sheriff's Department headquarters back in the heart of Los Angeles County and the Civic Center, within walking distance of the county Hall of Administration, federal and state courts, Los Angeles City Hall, other important governmental offices and Metro transportation. It is also nearby key cultural centers, including the Music Center, the Disney Concert Hall, LA Plaza de Cultura y Artes and El Pueblo de Los Angeles Historic Monument

I didn't know they did autopsies there either. It must have been an all-in-one place. DA's office, jail cells, courtrooms, meat locker, cafeteria, laundromat....you could probably have just lived there if you had to. LOL.

Talking about Marilyn Monroe.According to author David McGowan, Peter Lawford who was suspected with involvement in the death of Marilyn Monroe was a frequent guest at the home of John and Michelle Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas. Their circle of friends also included Warren Beatty, Peter and Jane Fonda, Jack Nicholson, Terry Melcher and girlfriend Candace Bergen, Marlon Brando, Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger and Voytek Frykowski, soon-to-be-dead gossip columnist Steve Brandt, Larry Hagman, Dennis Hopper, Ryan O’Neal, Mia “Rosemary’s Baby” Farrow, ethereal Freemason Peter Sellers, and Zsa Zsa Gabor and last but not least a singer and songwriter by the name of Charles Manson.

Katie 8753There are many threads in the Tate/Labianca case that hasn´t been properly examined. That is due to Vincent Bugs Helter Skelter theory. That theory has blocked all other explanations because the murders seems so horrendous that they surely must have been executed by some really "spaced out people."Who could better fit in to that description than Charles Manson and his escort?I think Helter Skelter satisfied everybody who wanted a swift and easy explanation to those incidents.Random killings? No.It might have been, and this is my speculation some sort of misunderstanding that evolved into these incidents. Something provoked the perpetrators but I don´t think it was Manson´s apocalyptic visions that provoked them.I think it was a more down to earth motive. The people that the Manson gang was involved wasn´t any law abiding citizens . What occupy outlaws minds? Mostly it´s about money and drugs.The heaven for that kind of people is plenty of money and free drugs; not hiding in the desert for 50 years waiting for the end times.

V717, I agree with you completely. I think I've stated that many times.

The Helter Skelter motive was only used to convict Charlie as the ringleader, since there was little physical evidence linking him to the crimes.

The REAL motive? Nobody seems to know. These killings were not random. They were planned.

Who planned them? Charlie.

Why? It depends on what day it is and who is talking. Everyone seems to have their own theory. As I said before, you can probably wrap all the theories up in a bundle, and each might apply to a certain degree.

Let me make one more thing perfectly clear: the killers THOUGHT they were killing because they were AT WAR. Didn't necessarily mean a "race war". They thought (and if you listen to Sandy you'll understand) that they were "at war" with "the establishment....piggies".

Katie 8754I just qoute from David McGowan: "Peter Lawford fresh from his probable involvement in the murder of Marilyn Monroe.""There are more indications of relationship between the Mansoids and the victims. To go further with McGowan, he writes: There were, to be sure, numerous ties between John Phillips, the ‘Wolf King of LA,’ and Charles Manson. And ties as well between bandmate Cass Elliott and Manson. And between Philips and Cass and the Cielo Drive victims. John Phillips, for example, had invested $10,000 in Jay Sebring’s business venture, Sebring International (rumored to have been a front for various illegal activities, including drug trafficking). Michelle Phillips had a brief affair with Roman Polanski in London while Polanski was married to the soon-to-be-dead Sharon Tate."

-Also a regular at Cass’s place, by some reports, was Charlie Manson himself. According to Ed Sanders, it was at Cass’s home that Charlie first met her neighbor, coffee heiress Abigail Folger (who helped finance Kenneth Anger’s films, like the one that was supposed to star Godo Paulekas but instead starred Mansonite Bobby Beausoleil-.Mau Terry has written that the Family’s iconic bus was seen parked at the home of John and Michelle Phillips in the fall of 1968. Reports also hold that Manson attended a New Year’s Eve party at the couple’s home on December 31, 1968, just months before the murders. So close were the ties between the Mamas and the Papas and the Manson clan that both John Phillips and Mama Cass were slated to appear as witnesses for the defense at the Family’s trial, though not surprisingly, neither was ever called.All this and more indicate very strongly that the motive for the murders wasn´t Helter Skelter but instead about more mundane things. But without the Helter Skelter theory Vincent Bug couldn´t have involved Charles Manson as the ringleader; as you so rightly point out.

could that be the real reason the defense team threw their defense? it wasn't that the girls were going to take the blame on themselves but powerful people in the music industry were becoming involved. did some attorney(s) get paid off not to put on a defense?a commentator once called cass elliot's house " the grand central station of hallucinogens on the west coast."

>>>Beauders said: could that be the real reason the defense team threw their defense? it wasn't that the girls were going to take the blame on themselves but powerful people in the music industry were becoming involved. did some attorney(s) get paid off not to put on a defense?>>>

Beauders this doesn't make sense. The "powerful people in the music industry" didn't kill anyone.

The girls were ready to take the fall for Manson...only because Manson told them to. He was ready, willing and able to throw them under the bus so he could get off. That was his last ditch effort. Their attorneys knew this. That's why the defense rested.

>>>a commentator once called cass elliot's house " the grand central station of hallucinogens on the west coast.">>>

Wow, that Cass Elliott just gets bigger and bigger (no pun intended..HA HA). She certainly wasn't the only one on the West Coast taking drugs.

the book i'm reading sure makes it seem like mama cass knew everybody on the the scene and that there was an open invitation to come over and party at her place as for john phillips yeah he claimed that he disliked manson and did'nt want him around but that was after the fact when everyone was covering their asses. who knows what their relationship really was before the shit hit the fan when it comes right down to it who really knows anything for sure about any of these relationships? most of them are dead now anyway

I was going to try to find that book at the library. Thanks for reminding me.

I just got thru reading the Deana Martin book. She mentions in her book that her father was friends with John & Michelle Phillips, and that she met Manson & Tex at a party, but she and her family were in no way connected to Charlie. In fact, her father was furious with her when he found out that she even knew Charlie.

I know that Cass was into drugs, just like everybody else in California back in the 60's. Does the book mention her knowing Charles Manson?

Saint - care to expand on that? You think Mama Cass was the key - to all the murders? How was she connected to the Labiancas? I keep hearing her name come up...but I don't think anyone has connected all the dots. I would be interested in your take on this.

i havent gotten that far into the book but i'm going to guess that members of the family hung out at cass elliots place which means chances are she knew manson or at least who he was. alot of the rock stars in california at the time stayed and partied at her place which i think was next door to where frykowski and folger were living at the time. lots of possible connections there but nothing solid as yet. elliots off and on boyfriend at the time was a guy named pic dawson who you might remember along with a guy named billy doyle as early suspects in the tate killings. some thought that the word pig on the front door was really pic. don't know what made anyone think the guy would leave his name on the front door tho.

In regards to Beaders comment:I don't know too much about Cass specifically.... but, I will say this:

I think both the defense AND prosecution probably omitted calling some potential witnesses to the stand, in order to protect the hollywood elite.It seems there was some effort made, to keep hollywood personalities out of the trial, and out of the witness stand.Someone (I think it was Vera at Colonel's) made quite an extensive list of potential witnesses, whom were never used during the trial, which I found very interesting.

In regards to Saint's comment:Personally, I think the idea that Charlie "banged ears" with some important figures through the music scene, is a likely notion.

don't know that she was the key to anything but shes one person who knew pretty much everyone. rock stars,criminals,rich folks they all hung out at her place. she might have known a few things that others did'nt. maybe

( Katie- you are earning your way on this list as well- your a bit wacky- but your consistently wacky, and I admire the way you have stayed so loyal to L/S and for the most part- although we articulate it differently- we see eye to eye on most things )

This quote by L/S is going to be a large part of the argument I am about to make :

I think both the defense AND prosecution probably omitted calling some potential witnesses to the stand, in order to protect the hollywood elite.It seems there was some effort made, to keep hollywood personalities out of the trial, and out of the witness stand.

First- what L/S said. You cant undervalue the importance of the fact that they let quite a few people off the hook as far as getting them involved in any real way if they had anything to lose, or if they had the type of mechanism in place to keep them protected....

Second- I have always believed that Circumstantial evidence was the thing that would matter most when trying to figure out the motive- if indeed there was any motive of matter at the end of the day- in this case...

in truth - in addition to my own personal nod to my favorite Dead song- this is how I chose my name ..

Despite what you hear or think- most cases that Prosecutors win- rely heavily on Circumstantial evidence to win cases. Most murders or rapes dont occur in broad daylight with people watching- so in most cases they have to build there arguments on factors that when put together - paint the complete picture...

Its the old argument that- " I didn't actually see the sun come up this morning- but I am pretty sure I can prove it happened ...

Now these two arguments are not for everyone..

If you are already not on my boat- then now is the time to disembark...

but if you think maybe that these two things are fair and you can keep an open mind that it may be true that

1- nobody who had to talk did- and never will

2- we will never watch a video or get an absolute answer to why these things happened completely as every single person who wound up in those rooms on those nights had there own stories as to how they got there at that precise moment

Then stay aboard as I am about set sail on where I think the whole thing sprouted from....

I have read in 5 separate books that Neil Young met Charlie Manson during a certain time period in laurel Canyon.

I have heard Neil young live in two interviews talk about meeting Charlie Manson during a certain time period in Laurel Canyon...

I have read in several places that Cathy gillies was a Buffalo Springfield groupie when she met the family during a certain time period in Laurel Canyon...

Cathy gillies stopped being a buffalo Springfield groupie- and became a friend of Charlies during a certain time period in laurel canyon...

Mama Cass Elliot lived and spent almost all of her free time with the people who made up buffalo Springfield and Crosby stills Nash and Young ( in fact she helped form one of them, and in fact Neil young was in both) during a certain time period in laurel Canyon...

and oh by the way- two of the victims at cielo lived right across the street..

at a certain time period in laurel Canyon...

if you think these are a bunch of coincidences- and none of them ever met when they weren't with Mama Cass- then you probably wont like my ideas... becuase everything I have read everywhere- has one theme in common...

Interesting thread...everybody adored Cass and she probably did know all of those people and brought them together. LA in the 80's was not much different...everybody knew everybody....example: I had lived out here in the 80's, moved back to the mdiwest and met my fiance on vacation many years later...we knew ALL of the same people but had never met...lots of musicians etc. and one of those six degrees of separation was writing love letters to Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker....

Ackording to author Adam Gorightly; Pic Dawson together with Ben Carruthers, Tom Harrigan and Billy Doyle was among the first suspected in the killings.An L.A artist by the name of Witold Kaczanowski told the police that Frykowski had been offered an MDA dealership in the L.A. All these suspected was frequent visitors to the Cielo Drive. Later the police cleared them of all charges, as they had air-tight alibis for the time of the murders.Susan Atkins testified during the murder trial that the motive for the murders was two-fold: to get Bobby Beausoleil out from jail via copy-cat murder and secondly, because Linda Kasabian had been burned on a MDA dope deal.

>>>St. C. said: When you read in H/S - bugs says Melcher and Wilson didn't want to testify, and he pretty much kept them out of it...>>>

No he didn't. Melcher testified. So did Jacobson.

>>>Where and who do you think they were going to party with???>>>

So they always trolled over to Mama Cass's house? Was that the only party in town???? HA HA .

>>>and again- all of these people had one thing in common...

Cass Elliot...>>>

They had more in common than that. They all liked to take drugs, have sex and play music, they all ate, slept and went potty...okay I'm being silly now...but so are you.

So you think that because Folger & Frykowski rented a house across the street from Cass that's the reason for the murders at Cielo Drive? Does the fact that they weren't even in that house after March 1969 even matter? Does it matter that Frykowski's artist friend Witold Kaczanowski lived in the house until the murders? How is he involved? Is it just that house that's the key??

How do you go from people knowing Cass to her being the key to the murders?

And also, there's no way that connects the Labiancas. No way.

I made a previous comment that I usually agree with you, but this is one of the times I don't.

The Canyon is not that big and musicians do open their home to other musicians, bartenders, traveling minstrels, artists etc (famous or not- can't tell you how many bands that I have had sleep on my living room floor) and musicians have a tendency to hang with each other....Charlie presented himself as a musician...so am sure he traveled in those circles and that they all knew each other...there was a time when cettain things the famous did were covered up (you can catch any of this on a True Hollywood Story Episode)...so would not be surprised if certain people did not testify...

Agree about the Tate Labiancas...not sure how they fit into the scheme of things.

A good book that ties the LA music scene together from the 40's to present day is Waiting for the Sun, A Rock n Roll history of Los Angeles written by Barney Hoskyns. There are several pages where Manson/family are mentioned and Neil Young is quoated that Manson spent a fair amount of time up in the Canyon... apparently he wanted to hear the band Spirit jam......

Certainly I think my ideas are NOT full proof, and they dont explain much- just maybe a place to start...

I never said Cass was responsible for what happened-

I THINK that if they did know each other and if that lead to what happened...

it could be traced back to the starting point- which would involve her... unwittingly I have no doubt...

I also never said Melcher and Wislon WOULDN'T tesify...

I said they didn't want to...

and there is plenty of proof that there involvement was really made much of an issue - nor were they pressured much in either the public or law enforcement...

which was to say- nobody was going to talk who didn't have to- and they didn't make too many people talk...

and finally...

I think because Voytek and Gibby lived across the street from a place where I believe that people who later killed them were hanging out- and that they themselves were hanging out with the people across the street- that it makes as much sense as anything else I have ever heard- that maybe they all were hanging out across the street and they met and started some kind of relationship which made some of them want to kill the others...

Katie - I don't think Saint meant that Cass was responsible for the murders - I think he meant that it seems the most logical place for those to meet and/or interact.

You have all the players there at one time or another. And as big as the world is - it is actually not as big as you think. People interact with people who make them feel comfortable and have things in common to discuss, etc. So I don't think Saint is so far off that this may have been the beginning - at least the beginning of the players coming together and acquainting themselves with each other. Seems logical.

Saying she may be the key may not fit...but saying that she was the brass that made the key...that seems more like it. I think most of us agree who turned the key...so who was the key, the door, the lock...it is a start.

St C - "but if it is more than that- the next logical step is familiarity with the victims, and if we can start with Ceilo- and then make a dent- maybe things would start to fall in place from there..."

Wow, Saint...we were thinking the same thing at the same time. I almost feel like I know what I am talking about now. ALMOST...not quite - I am still in awe of most of the commenters and their knowledge.

Charlie got frustrated and pissed- because he was not making it big, and the poeple he had been living large with started to ignore him- and at the same time drug deals stopped happening and connections dried up- he may have thrown all his hostilities over a multitude of things at the one place that represented all these things to him...

The producer who screwed himThe dealer who wont deal with himThe beauty who wont fuck himthe life that was still unattainable to him..The only people he encountered who wouldn't fall for his shit...

The place that Tex and Dean once lived/ hung out at.... The type of poeple who used to welcome him..

Okay St., I'll give you that. NO ONE wanted to testify at the trials. They were all scared shitless. There's no doubt about it. They weren't afraid of the law....they were afraid of Charlie, and his minions.

Now...rewind to before the murders.

Pic Dawson was supplying Cass, et al with drugs. Frykowski was trying to horn in on the MDA distribution.

I can see why that might be a motivation for murder.

But why kill everyone there? That doesn't make any sense.

In the evening of August 8, 1969, Charlie took Tex aside and said "go to the house where Melcher USED TO LIVE and kill everybody there, and get $800. If you don't get $800, go to the next house and the next house, until you get $800".

Why kill anyone but Frykowski? It doesn't make any sense. What you are suggesting is a "hit". But a "hit" involves only certain people. This was a shotgun approach. Killing people that weren't even involved.

And certainly doesn't explain the LaBianca murders. They didn't know Folger, Frykowski or Mama Cass. Or the myriad of rock bands that you're describing.

>>>is that any crazier an idea than a race war, or a Beatles song?>>

No...not really! Not when we know that Charlie listened to that song day & night, and preached Helter Skelter to his "children" constantly. And if you don't believe that, re-read the transcripts.

I'm not saying that Helter Skelter is the motive.

Like I've said ad-nauseum. It was the motive used to convict Charlie.

What was the real motive?? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Actually, I just read the autobiography of Tiny Tim, and he was good chums with Charlie too.

They were "goooood friends". HA HA.

He says "Charlie once asked me in the summer of 1969 if I would consider going to Cielo Drive and killing everyone there, and I responded by saying 'First of all, I probably can't fit through that window, and secondly, Miss Vicky wouldn't like that.'

Then Charlie interjected by saying "you play a mean ukulele brother".

He always liked Charlie....until he carved a swastika on his head. That was the straw the broke the camel's back.

>>>Mary said: Saying she may be the key may not fit...but saying that she was the brass that made the key...that seems more like it. I think most of us agree who turned the key...so who was the key, the door, the lock...it is a start.>>>

Why was she the brass that made the key? 99% of Charlie's life had nothing to do with her.

He was trying to gather a family after being released from prison. Had nothing to do with Cass.

He was trying to find places to live, had nothing to do with Cass.

He was trying to weed people out of his "bunch", had nothing to do with Cass.

He was conning Spahn out of certain areas of the ranch, had nothing to do with Cass.

He was trying to make his mark at certain satanic groups in CA. Had nothing to do with Cass.

He came against a black drug dealer named Crowe, had nothing to do with Cass.

He ordered Bobby to get money from Gary, and cut Gary Hinman's ear off, had nothing to do with Cass.

He was trying to get a contract with Melcher. Had nothing to do with Cass.

He was trying to figure life out when everything went haywire. Had nothing to do with Cass.

Katie there is no explanation after 40 years that will fit or can be confirmed...

you laid out a great list of bullets that cant be answered in of themselves...

so think outside of the box, and try another way...

instead of focusing on what we cant explain- lets start with what we can and go out instead of trying to look from the outside and get in.....

Some things can be proven- and that is a better place to start then speculating on things that haven't panned out over all of these years...

all those things you pointed out still could have happened- and it doesn't mean Tex or Charlie didn't meet Voytek at some point...

they didn't have to be best friends, and they didn't have to influence each others life's- for something to have happened between them that would have been a better explanation for what happened later than we currently have...

"Why was she the brass that made the key? 99% of Charlie's life had nothing to do with her."

Not a problem that you don't get what I am saying. Saint is saying she may have been the catalyst...I am just saying he may have a point. Give me your idea and I might agree with it...he is the first one that I heard that I feel makes sense.

You seem to be hung up on Cass being the cause but that is not what I nor Saint are saying. She did not cause the killings, she did not feed ideas about killing, she did not present a motive about the killing...she just may have been the forum where they met each other...that is all I am saying - not such a big deal.

I was merely thinking of the how a key is formed...with brass. So maybe it was a stupid analogy...wouldn't be the first time I was stupid and misunderstood...I can handle it.

>>>St. said: Katie there is no explanation after 40 years that will fit or can be confirmed...>>>

I agree.

>>>instead of focusing on what we cant explain- lets start with what we can and go out instead of trying to look from the outside and get in.....>>>

Okay, I agree. What can we explain?

>>>Some things can be proven- and that is a better place to start then speculating on things that haven't panned out over all of these years...

all those things you pointed out still could have happened- and it doesn't mean Tex or Charlie didn't meet Voytek at some point...>>>

No, they may have met at many places. Doesn't mean they were good friends. You have to remember, when Tex stumbled on Wilson's lair, he was star struck. He lucked out. Just like Charlie.

>>>they didn't have to be best friends, and they didn't have to influence each others life's- for something to have happened between them that would have been a better explanation for what happened later than we currently have...

Again - we are talking about wealthy, famous, dead people...>>>

And dead people don't talk.

>>What wasn't known pubically then- wasn't going to be let out later...

for so many reasons>>>

If it wasn't known publically then, why is it true now.

What I'm saying is, I can say anything I want to put a slant on this case and never back it up.

Show proof of what you're saying St.

Proof.

Then I'll take you seriously.

You can't just make shit up, or say "it's from my source". That doesn't fly with me.

Katie- I have no proof lol I am saying there is no proof of anything- and as a result we have to start looking form ways to put things together which may prove something- when assembled in the right order...

Voytek and Gibby did not live across the street from Mama Cass. Nor were they neighbors. Mama Cass lived over half a mile away from where Voytek and Gibby lived. I was at both locations last Sunday. They did live close to each other though.

>>Mary said: You seem to be hung up on Cass being the cause but that is not what I nor Saint are saying. She did not cause the killings, she did not feed ideas about killing, she did not present a motive about the killing...she just may have been the forum where they met each other...that is all I am saying - not such a big deal.>>

Then why is she the key??? Are you telling me, that in all of Los Angeles, the only place to meet was her house???

I find that hard to believe.

And if they met at her house, at got cookies and milk, why would they talk of murder?

>>Ken said: Voytek and Gibby did not live across the street from Mama Cass. Nor were they neighbors. Mama Cass lived over half a mile away from where Voytek and Gibby lived. I was at both locations last Sunday. They did live close to each other though.>>

Thanks Ken. I know they lived in the same neighborhood, but unless you've been there, you don't know.

Voytek & Gibby rented a house at 2774 Woodstock and Cass lived at 2773 Woodstock.

In my neighborhood, that means nothing.

And I'll say one more thing.

Charlie didn't know everyone in the world.

I was 16 in 1969. He didn't know me. Nor my friends or family.

I don't know why you people try to make it look like he knew everybody in the whole goddam world.

Or, feel free to keep speculating. I enjoy reading all of it, I will follow up for myself on what seems interesting, and I will set my own standards for what convinces me. I value my freedom of thought and expression, and yours as well. This is not a court of law, the word "proof" seems to me to be a red herring in this context. Citing a specific source isn't "proof" of anything. I say bring on all theories, that's what i am here for, personally. If I was looking for proof I wouldn't look on a blog.

That's my two cents. Spare me the belligerent responses, I ain't readin' 'em, I won't be back online for a while, i'm locked in my studio, working the rest of the night. Deadlines loom... :)

again i don't think anyones saying she did anything to set off any murders...but alot of these people could have known each other through her and i think thats something worth looking into.

lynne-the mould book was allright.he seems very emotionless but i think hes just one of those guys who feel that when somethings done its done and doesnt feel the need to look over his shoulder at the past constantly. he had some good things to say about grant hart at least til he became a junkie and i can un derstand where that would be a sore spot with mould since they were on the edge of making good money after years of hard work.

mould says he had no idea that hart was a junkie until the last tour they did and that greg norton knew from the beginning but kept it from mould so as to keep the gravy train rolling. he seems to have very little respect for greg norton, in a nutshell he and hart wrote the songs and that makes them husker du and norton was just there to drive the van. mould seems pissed that hart puts him down relentlessly in interviewssince the breakup and from what i've read online hes right about that. all in all an interesting read about the early days and breakup of husker du.

the mama cass book i'm about halfway through and its gotta go back soon! the most surprising thing to me so far is what a relentless asshole john phillips was to her and how loved she was by pretty much everyone else that knew her. she must have been fun to hang with.

the one thing i got from the library that i've got to give two thumbs up to is the documentry about harry nilsson. five stars from mattp its called 'who is harry nilsson and why is everybody talkin about him' great voice, great songwriter who lived a crazy life. if you know who he was,you'll want to see it. if you don't know who he was,do yourself a favor and check it out.

just to tie it into this tread a bit it was harrys apartment in london that mama cass died in. a few years later harry let keith moon stay in the same apartment and he died there also. end of matts book and video reviews!

I NOW have a few free minutes, and since the comments section is still by far, my most favorite part of this whole blogging experience... here goes...

Let me make one point clear:I don't think Mama Cass was the catalyst.BUT... I do believe the location where Cass lived/partied/socialized... that general area and "scene"... is one of the more likely places where these two worlds (Manson and the "Hollywoods"), may have met... probably the most likely.That's what Saint is saying.It's NOT Cass personally... but, that location and time... that "social arena".... that "setting"."IF" they met... that's probably WHERE it happened.

As Lynn suggested... music is something of a "melting pot".It's one of the few societal "domains" (especially in the 60's), where the "haves" and "have nots" come together.

I think Saint has a point, and I think Katie is taking his suggestions way too literally.

To say the two "groups/worlds" met here, is not to say, they had a LOT to do with each other... or knew each other well.

Maybe the two groups had "just enough" to do with each other... that "THEY" came to Manson's mind, when he decided to unleash his bitterness.

Maybe "they" represented enough of Manson's "hated worlds", all rolled into one.Bottom line:If you go with this theory, you're going with the idea, that Manson hated what these folks "represented".Manson didn't hate them because he knew them so well... or, because of who "they" were specifically... but, because of what they "represented".

It's a "loose" connection... which simply makes the killings a bit less "completely random".The idea here folks, is to hopefully push this out of the realm of "completely random".

Saint said it best:

"Music- Drugs- what if it was both???

Charlie got frustrated and pissed- because he was not making it big, and the poeple he had been living large with started to ignore him- and at the same time drug deals stopped happening and connections dried up- he may have thrown all his hostilities over a multitude of things at the one place that represented all these things to him...

The producer who screwed himThe dealer who wont deal with himThe beauty who wont fuck himthe life that was still unattainable to him..The only people he encountered who wouldn't fall for his shit"...

It's very possible... the folks inside that door at Cielo, represented to Manson all these things (Saint suggests above) rolled into one... the "quintessential pigs".

"Quintessential Pigs"... Manson had previously met, shall we say 'superficially"... but, he knew they were in there... and he knew what they represented (to him)... and he was just a very angry mofo.

Bottom Line:The idea, is that Manson intereacted with some of the Cielo folks, "just enough" from the "music scene" to know who they were... what they represented (to him)... and, where to find them.That's the cruxt of Saint's idea.

Motive is still unexplained, but it brings the murders out of the realm of "completely random"... which is a good thing... and creates a connection, if only superficial.I think it's a worthy thought... and I think the "music scene" is a better place to start than most, IF one is going to search for a link between the two camps at all.Thanks Saint!!

Of course, this does not explain LaBianca... but as Saint suggested, it's a start... or a worthy thought.

I don't know if the two "camps" really met for sure... but if they did... I agree with Saint... this is the most likely place to start.Personally... I believe the two groups "knew of" each other.I don't think they knew each other intimately... but, I think they "knew of" each other.I think that's likely, given the 'times", and the circles Manson moved in... which seems to be all of them, at some level.

Even if you go with the very simplistic "pigs and anger" theory... it still makes more sense to choose a location where you KNOW the pigs are... doesn't it?

i recall reading in emmons book that manson, fromme, and share would go over to elliot's to swim, lay in the sun, eat, and play music.atkins claimed that one of the best times she had while in l.a. was blt sandwich's with cass elliot in elliot's kitchen.yes manson and atkins aren't the best sources and don't believe them if you don't want to, but...

The thing is Katie... I don't think we're ever going to make complete sense of this situation, because some parts of this puzzle are missing, and other parts are senseless.

In a real sense... we're trying to "make sense of the senseless.

But, as Saint said:

"if you can, at least , say for sure this is where the whole thing got started- then you can start to retrace steps to see how it went in the direction it did"....

No one is saying, that because these folks "met" at Cass' place, that's why they were killed.That would make no sense.Obviously, there would have to be much more to the plot, than that.But... if you could prove they met there, it'd be a start.It would be a beginning point, for re-tracing steps.I think the idea that these folks met there, is likely enough, to warrant some consideration as a "jump-off" point.

Saint also said:

"Despite what you hear or think- most cases that Prosecutors win- rely heavily on Circumstantial evidence to win cases. Most murders or rapes dont occur in broad daylight with people watching- so in most cases they have to build there arguments on factors that when put together - paint the complete picture...

Its the old argument that- " I didn't actually see the sun come up this morning- but I am pretty sure I can prove it happened" ...

I'm pretty convinced, that this case will never be solved to the satisfaction of some people.I say that, because if the case involves 50 pieces, we're only working with 38 of those pieces tops.I DO think, 38 pieces could possibly be enough... but, the person 'solving" the case, would have to be on the right track (obviously) to begin with... would have to use some "imagination" to fill-in the missing pieces... and would have to take a few "leaps of faith" (such as saint's "sun coming up" example).

It's like one of those vanity number plates that you see on cars.The guy only has six characters available on a number plate... but, he successfully conveys the message of his nine letter word, by craftfully omitting a few vowels.The word on the license plate doesn't actually say "Great"... but, everyone knows what "Gr8t" means... and he's saved one character.The word is "implied"... such as the "sun coming up" is implied."Im Gr8t" VS "I'm Great".

The "solved case" will never include ALL the dots... but, I applaud guys like Saint, who attempt to complete the picture, even with a few dots missing.And who knows... if they're on the right track... the "8" in the word "Gr8T"... just might present itself at some point... and we'll all know the word was originally "Great".

If anyone is waiting for the word "Great" to be spelled-out in it's entirety... they've got a long wait, cuz it ain't gonna happen. LOL

OK... it's a funny analogy, but it conveys my message well.My two cents...

In the immediate aftermath of the horrific murders, nobody had any idea who might have committed such violence, nor what their motive might have been. It would be months before the truth was discovered and in the meantime an atmosphere of panic, fear, and paranoia swept through the canyons. The openness and trust that had previously existed, particularly at Cass's, was replaced with suspicion and concern. With the very real possibility that the murderer or murderers might strike again, most of the previously peace-loving musicians and actors lost no time in equipping themselves with some sort of protection whether it was a handgun, a rifle, or a guard dog. As the police began what would turn into months of investigation, they began questioning virtually everyone who had known the victims and, in the absence of a clear motive, almost anyone was open to suspicion. "Weeks went by when no one knew what had happened," recalls Mike Sarne. "And the police interviewed absolutely immense feeling of paranoia with everyone having their own little pet theories." Having regularly played host to some of the less decorous characters on the scene, Cass was subjected to particularly intensive questioning by the police. Apart from having known the victims – which half of Hollywood could have equally claimed – Cass was further implicated by association. When the bodies of the victims had been discovered, the police had found the word PIG blurrily scrawled on the wall of the house in blood. John Phillips had informed the police of the widely circulating theory that what had been written was in fact PIC - in reference to Pic Dawson. Some believed this could directly point to his guilt. Both Dawson and Billy Doyle were known to have been regular guests at Cielo Drive during the summer, and as Dawson was already well known to the police, Cass was once again called in to account for his whereabouts. For all his bravado, Dawson, however, seemed unlikely to have carried out a series of murders of this ferocity. Besides, Cass had no idea where Dawson was, and if she had, it is similarly unlikely she would have told the police.

The other major rumor ricocheting through the Hollywood Hills, which is still cited by many, all these years on, concerned Doyle. It was known at the time that Folger and Frykowski had a penchant for cruising Sunset Strip and bringing home young men. After drugging them, they would tie them up and film them. Some weeks before the murders, as the tale goes, they had a spectacular falling out with Doyle over a business deal gone sour and had decided to exact revenge not only by doing what they usually did to their pick-ups but by flogging him in front of an invited audience. They apparently recorded this on film. The story then goes that when Doyle realized what had happened, he was, according to Monkee Peter Tork, who was living in the canyons at the time, "murderous." Raging, Doyle insisted he would kill Folger and Frykowski. Wary that he might carry out his threat, a similarly macho friend chained him to a tree in Cass's garden to calm him down before hauling him onto a plane out of the country. In the light of Doyle's oft-repeated claims that he had killed a man and his overall hard-core machismo stance, it is easy to understand hoe an episode like this might have been considered sufficient motive for him to have committed the murders. "If they were gonna do that to Billy," says Tork, "they wanted to die! That was death-provoking. It was a murderously dangerously thing to do!"

Eventually, after months of rumor and speculation, both Doyle and Dawson were cleared of suspicion and Charles Manson, a thirty-five-year-old ex-convict, fraud, pimp, and conman with a Jesus fixation, and his "family" of (mostly young and female) followers were revealed as the murderers. Manson had a talent for attracting the young and dispossessed and he had somehow managed to brainwash his acolytes into accompanying him on his nihilistic quest for supposed salvation and power through murder. Manson and his crew had been frequent visitors to Cass's house, taking advantage, like so many others, of the plentiful food, drugs and generally laid-back, hospitable atmosphere. But Cass was not the only one who had played host to him and his acolytes, unaware of what would ensue. Although in the aftermath of the murders, few would admit to any link, many prominent figures in the Los Angeles rock community had not only socialized with Manson and company – particularly his harem of young women, who made themselves readily available to anyone who was interested – but developed closer associations with them. As Neil Young later remembered, "A lot of pretty well-known musicians around L.A. knew Manson, though they'd probably deny it now. The girls were always around too. They'd be right there on the couch with me, singing a song." The Beach Boys' Dennis Wilson in particular had welcomed them into his life and taken steps toward helping Manson in his attempts to obtain a record deal and his subsequent failure to do so was at one point considered a motive for the murders. But prior to that, Manson and his followers would have seemed like no more than yet another of the city's umpteen crews of nomadic hippies, sitting around smoking, playing the odd guitar, and hanging out at other people's houses. There would have been nothing to differentiate them from any other group, and the open-house atmosphere at Woodrow Wilson meant that it was easy for them to wander in and hang out.

Because of Cass's connections to the case, meanwhile, when it finally came to court, she was subpoenaed as a witness, as was John Philips, who was also a good friend of both Polanski and Dennis Wilson. The police had found sheet music to the Mamas and the Papas "Straight Shooter" propped up on the music-holder of the baby-grand piano in the living room of Cielo Drive when the bodies had been found, which seemed to link Phillips to the case. Eventually, as the true facts came to light, Cass and John were both cleared of any involvement.

ok, back to me...if you read the first Tate homocide report, you'll see that Pic Dawson and his canadian friends were the prime suspects from the start...many, many people were nailing them as the culprits. It is why the LAPD dismissed the LASO when they called about a connection to the Hinman murder while the Tate autopsies were being conducted and before the LaBianca's bodies were even discovered!

It has been stated that VF was establishing an MDA connection through Canada and that he was to be the main supplier of MDA in SoCal, hence the canadians as suspects? Also, I think the biggest question here which could be answered I suppose was that in the absence of VF...because he was killed, who then became the main supplier of MDA in SoCal? I am thinking that possibly it could be organized crime? And further I have always felt that organized crime may well have had something to do with the LaBianca's as well. So I don't think all this talk of Cass is misplaced.

Also, I think it's possible that the residents of Woodstock road may have been able to walk through their backyards and easily get to the residence of Cass on Woodrow Wilson...but that's just another unproven theory.

The properties were not that close. Like I said earlier, I was there last Sunday. The driving distance between the properties was .7 miles to be exact. Not only are there many properties between the two houses, but there is a steep hill to hike over. To get a better idea of the area, try this.

"In 1974, she was staying in flat in Curzon Place, in the Mayfair district of London. A brown, unassuming apartment complex. Cass would enter the building and walk the stairs to flat number 9 . Cass was in the UK, performing her solo show to sold out audiences at the Palladium. She had left the group "The Mama's and the Papa's" in 1968, and was branching out on her own, with solo albums, a role in the 1970 film "Pufnstuf" and a guest spot on "Scooby Doo". According to fellow "mama" Michelle Phillips who says she had spoken to Cass the night before she died, "She had had a little champagne, and was crying. She felt she had finally made the transition from Mama Cass." She died on the 29th of July, 1974 at age 32. The rumour about her choking on a sandwich began with an article in the London Times shortly after her death.

Official Cause of Death: Fatty Myocardial Degeneration due to Obesity. Natural Causes."

Starship said>>>>>>>Also, I think it's possible that the residents of Woodstock road may have been able to walk through their backyards and easily get to the residence of Cass on Woodrow Wilson...but that's just another unproven theory.<<<<<<<

No, Ken's right...Cass's property on Woodrow Wilson would not have been accessible through backyards from Woodstock.

I've been through there often, Laurel Canyon is a shortcut when the fwy in the valley is backed up...Laurel Canyon Blvd goes up like a racetrack over the mountain and comes out on Sunset, and the hillsides of the lanes and roads off of it are steep, some very narrow...and the houses are situated to take full advantage of the views...so sorry Starship, over the fence and through the yards to Cass's house on Woodrow Wilson wouldn't have happened, not from Woodstock.

On a lighter note, Dan Aykroyd lived in Cass's house for many years after her death...rumor has it, the house is haunted...by the ghost of our beloved Cass.

Starship said>>>>The rumour about her choking on a sandwich began with an article in the London Times shortly after her death.Official Cause of Death: Fatty Myocardial Degeneration due to Obesity. Natural Causes."<<<<

Yes, the official cause of death was a heart attack. I've seen an interview with her sister, I believe her name is Leah...she raised Cass's daughter, Owen, and she verified the cause of Cass's death was a heart attack...

Somewhere i read or heard the ham sandwich story took hold when someone similar to a coroner's investigator went into the hotel room where Cass's body was found in bed, saw a half eaten sandwich on an end table, and it took off from there. So hurtful to her family.

Thanks Marliese. I love it when you Californians describe the terrain on a personal basis. It makes everything easier to understand.

I'm always curious about houses in LA that seem to be up so high that you have to walk up about 150 stairs to get to the front door. Why is that? I think someone answered my question on that once, but I can't remember the answer.

LS, agree about the scene comment.Cass is buried in the Jewish cemetery next to Griffith Park and one of the Forest Lawn Cemetaries.

Last night on the way home from the show (part of the huge Sunset Strip Music Fesitval) saw the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. In the summer they show movies there. I believe Ms. Monroe is buried there.

Fun to be on the Strip last night...and imagine it as it once was.

MattP- interesting observations. From an outsider looking in, Grant and Greg were very sociable- Bob? Not so much if at all. Grant and Greg were always approachable. Grant's boyfriend at the time was questionable....Grant may have had his drug problem but in 84-85 up until that last year, it was hidden pretty well...but I can tell you that when Warehouse Songs and Stories came out, the tension was so thick and you knew the end was coming soon....

BTW, Tiny Tim is buried in Lakewood Cemetery in Mpls. Same cemetery as Hubert Humpphrey and also Soul Asylum's Karl Mueller. Tiny Tim's funeral was at the Basillica of St. Mary. He had married the daughter of the owner of Supervalu, I believe.

lynne i thought of you at one point in the book. talking about the time between zen arcade and flip your wig bm says that people found him unapproachable,dour and not at all friendly,he said that he would'nt disagree with that but would leave it to others to to fill in the ugly descriptions of himself. sounds like you nailed it on the head in that other thread. i don't think hes a bad guy thats just the way some people are.

regardless i still think grant harts songs were and are better. but i understand bm a bit more since i read the book. the warehouse period sounds like a bad time for everyone involved.

MattP- Some people are not warm fuzzies and sometimes that's why they are songwriters...it comes out in different ways. The year before Warehouse was tough- I remember going to a baseball game with a friend and David Savoy and finding out months later that David had committed suicide...I think that was the beginning of the end. The Huskers always had a fun group traveling with them- Lou Giordano, usually some of the guys from Southern Thunder Sound...guys from First Ave etc so the atmosphere was always warm and friendly.

For those interested in Mansons mind and psyche I recommend you to look at the film "Charles Manson Superstar," directed by Nicholas Schreck from 1989. It´s one of the best films about Charles Manson ever made. Nicholas Schreck from the Wervolf Order interviews Manson and the interview gives an unique glimpse into Mansons conception of the world as a symbolic manifestation;and the only thing that matter is the mind. "The world as a dream."It is in 7 parts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiS1mYQMuXE

Lynn said...>>>>Last night on the way home from the show (part of the huge Sunset Strip Music Fesitval) saw the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. In the summer they show movies there. I believe Ms. Monroe is buried there.<<<<

My sister used to live on Midvale, and when i was a teenager, i'd stay with her on weekends and we'd walk by there to cross Wilshire into Westwood Village to go to the movies. You'd never know there's even a cemetery there because it's tucked away behind and between buildings...very pretty though, easy to walk through, lots of interesting graves, beautiful trees.

Katie, Dean Martin is there...in a wall crypt a few alcoves over from Marilyn...Farrah's buried in the ground in a beautiful grave there, Natalie Wood, Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys, Frank Zappa's there...in an unmarked grave but people know where to find it, Ronald Hughes...Van Houten's attorney that died, is buried there also...found his grave by accident, just walking around once looking at names.

I lived by Forest Lawn Glendale at one time- where Michael Jackson is now buried. It also has Manson connections, as I believe Jay Sebring's funeral was held there in the little church. It is also the little church where Ronald Reagan and Jane Wyman were married. They also house an art gallery up there....we saw a 60's poster exhibit there several years ago.

I believe Clark Gable may be interred there. It is a beautiful cemetery (as far as cemeteries go- I prefer the ones in New Orleans- they are fascinating)with big wrought iron gates. The cemetery used to be quite accessible- not sure about that anymore now that MJ is buried there.

We lived on the other side of the cemetery...it is wooded with big pine trees and the lawn was sooo green. There are coyotes up there on the hillside and they would howl their chilling, lonely cries at night....made for some unsettling nights with my head just barely peaking out of the covers.

Always get the Westside cemeteries mixed up. Have not been to the movies at the Hollywood Forver cemetery...we've been meaning to go but just one of those things ya never get around to.

You can view the entire movie in 7, 15-minute segments on YouTube by following V717's link.

You might want to give it a "test run" ahead, before ordering a copy.

I checked it out briefly... invested maybe 30 minutes skimming.It appears as the usual run-o-the-mill Manson interview to me, coupled with an intermittent "doom and gloom"... "faces of death" narration. LOL

I hate to say much more, having not watched the whole thing in earnest... but personally... I think I've seen enough.

On a positive note, there seems to be some nuggets of good background information, and related history interspersed within the narration... and part 3 or 4 (can't remember), has some good Spahn's footage.You have to be really patient for the nuggets though.The guy talks really slow and deliberate like that annoying science teacher in "Fast times". LOLIt's kinda brutal actually... LOLOL

Personally... I can't make heads or tails of it... but, maybe someone else can get some enjoyment from it.A third of the way down, they get into Charles Manson and Giovanni di Stefano.It appears to be another blog basically.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True