It doesn't make much sense for me to take your word on faith any more sense than it makes sense for me to take anyone's word on faith.

I don't recall asking anybody to take my word on face value. I posted a personal experience. I'm pretty sure that I made it clear in what I wrote that, especially from my experience with these people, I don't encourage anybody to take anything at face value.

Originally Posted by armence

I mean, going to ask any question off Scott or Janesa is somewhat silly since if your story is true, they will say that you are misguided. If you are misguided, they will also say so... Not a very productive line of questioning if you ask me... I always intended to also go give Krav Maga a shot which if anything will give me something to compare Cun Tao to.

I wasn't addressing the public at large when I encouraged them to ask Janesa or Scott about me. That was specifically directed at Leo, I believe. Because he and I had a dialogue going. He had serious questions about it, and I saw an opportunity to give somebody a different point of view from somebody with more than a little experience of the whole thing.

I'm a lot of things, but on this I am not misguided.

If you're going to compare Cuntao with Krav Maga you're pretty much wasting your time. The Krav Maga I've seen is the same static, dead training as your average cuntao program. If you need an explanation of what I mean by "dead" you should do a search for Matt Thornton's concepts of "aliveness."

It's a non-specific training method that will separate useful training from the rest.

Originally Posted by armence

What I was interested in, is where you thought there is value in Poekoelan. I mean, your school broke off, you didn't just close down which implies to me that you probably believe that there is something good in Poekoelan. That could help me make myself an opinion by sort of comparing it to the rest of what I am taught.

I stopped training directly with them shortly after we broke away from the main organization. I believe there is quite a bit that's good in the system. Do I think there are better things out there? Yes. Absolutely.

What is most flawed about Tulen is its training methodology which leans toward dead patterns rather than live training. A lack of encouragement toward hard sparring. The school purports to train a combat art yet a large proportion of the overall student body could not:

A: correctly perform a lot of the techniques. But were promoted and praised for their knowledge anyway.

B: Most of them could not fight at the level I would expect from somebody who trains to "fight" or a combat art.

But I think you've already got a fairly solid opinion on the whole thing. And you've got some very detailed posts of mine that I assume you've already gone through. I think I talked about the training methods there. You've gotta do what you gotta do. If you enjoy the physical part of it, great. I don't give a **** about that. That's your business. The nasty side of the whole thing only sucked in a few idiots and I mark myself among that number.

Just keep your lips off the koolaid cup and you should be fine.

But if you're looking for an effective fighting I suggest you look elsewhere.

Originally Posted by armence

PS: Something that leads me to believe that maybe there is more to it that just what either side is saying, (or that change is coming or both) there actually is a kick boxing class now offered at Janesa's school which we are all encouraged to take.

Of course there's more to it than either side is saying. People are complicated and fucked up. Nobody is able to sift through memory for an exact rendering of the truth especially when you consider what a fluid concept the truth really is.

Use your fucking brain. That's why you have it.

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant;
they too have their story.

I left this Tulen style about a year ago, not on bad terms but am really happy to be running my school in Tacoma independently. I am also a blue belt in bjj (my current passion) and occasionally train in kickboxing and submission wrestling and my co-teacher is an MMA instructor. This post is for those familiar with this style because I would like to know how you think the style could be improved. These are just my humble observstions...

1)There is too much cross-stepping (moving through a twisted horse) in this and other east-asian style. This takes out your base and will get you dropped by a wrestler/bjj player with a fast shoot. I teach my students now to mainly fight from a monkey or "boxers stance" and even to use the sprawl as a last resort.

2)Tulen has great striking from the ground but not enough detailed understanding of leverage and submissions on the ground since the last time I worked with them anyway. Stomping someone's head in may be great self defense in a serious self defense situation but the pins from bjj/wrestling really give you more choices in how to handle a situation then what I learned from Tulen ground fighting. Plus I never learned enough about leverage to get bigger people off of me. I encourporate wrestling and submissions (from a self defense not sport perspective) in how I teach. Plus other silat styles use grappling techniques on the ground.

2)Some of the cun toa holds are dangerous (ie gun behind close by). I have replaced some techniques with attacks/disarms that are easier and more effective in my opinion (which I have tested multple times against different lay people and experts). Sorry if this is heresy but that is why I don't believe in adhearing to a rigid unchangible system.

3) I have some meditation in class, for tests and in breathing excersises but have a completely hands off attitude toward promoting any spiritual concepts other then simple ethics, hard work, and self confidence.

No dissing please, just some suggestions on how to make this style a complete system.

I don't know if they have kids' classes or not, but there's a gym out there called Nexus martial arts; it's a Straight Blast Gym affiliate.

I had a kid I worked with who started at nexus who enjoyed it quite a bit, but given the location, nexus might as well be a world away. People on Cape Cod don't drive more than 20 minutes in general. Nexus is on the other side of the Cape.

1)There is too much cross-stepping (moving through a twisted horse) in this and other east-asian style. This takes out your base and will get you dropped by a wrestler/bjj player with a fast shoot. I teach my students now to mainly fight from a monkey or "boxers stance" and even to use the sprawl as a last resort.

The cross-stepping and deep twisted horse stances I think are fine from a conditioning perspective. One of the benefits to those deep stances and their initial purpose in most traditional martial arts was one of building stamina, flexibilty and core strength. Admittedly, these are very antiquated methods than the ones used currently and I think that there are better ones out there, but as long as you are clear with your students that these are not fighting postures you'll be fine.

Originally Posted by jkreher

2)Tulen has great striking from the ground but not enough detailed understanding of leverage and submissions on the ground since the last time I worked with them anyway. Stomping someone's head in may be great self defense in a serious self defense situation but the pins from bjj/wrestling really give you more choices in how to handle a situation then what I learned from Tulen ground fighting. Plus I never learned enough about leverage to get bigger people off of me. I encourporate wrestling and submissions (from a self defense not sport perspective) in how I teach. Plus other silat styles use grappling techniques on the ground.

I'd argue the point "great striking on the ground." Most of the ground striking I saw in Poekoelan depends upon both attackes remaining at the same level. A grappler would have just as easy a time smothering those attempted strikes and closing the distance. The skills grapplers have built by introducing strikes into the grappling game have taught them a great deal about effecting striking from the ground. So, if you guys are really hell bent on keeping the striking game from the tiger side of the system you need to put on the shin guards and 7 ounce gloves and start hitting each other with the submissions mixed in.

Jits with hits is a vastly different game than pure grappling.

Originally Posted by jkreher

2)Some of the cun toa holds are dangerous (ie gun behind close by). I have replaced some techniques with attacks/disarms that are easier and more effective in my opinion (which I have tested multple times against different lay people and experts). Sorry if this is heresy but that is why I don't believe in adhearing to a rigid unchangible system.

Good for you. The best thing you could have done, at least from a knife defense perspective is to bring in qualified instructors in blade-based arts to teach your students how to actually use a knife. You'll find one or two holds with variations and live play should solve most of the your problems in that regard. That, and for fucks sake, ditch the rubber knives and pick up some plastic trainers of different shapes and lengths.

Originally Posted by jkreher

3) I have some meditation in class, for tests and in breathing excersises but have a completely hands off attitude toward promoting any spiritual concepts other then simple ethics, hard work, and self confidence.

Nothing wrong with meditation.

Originally Posted by jkreher

No dissing please, just some suggestions on how to make this style a complete system.

-Thanks

Hope that helps. PM if you want more info. I introduced a lot of concepts into the system for Sam's classes before I left that came from a good MMA program. I'm happy to help.

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant;
they too have their story.

I take it this lady is a relative of Janessa Kruse? Just wondered if any of the people with Poekelan experience know anything about her? The class uses the same gym as my Escrima class and is near where I work - based on what I've read here I'll urge extreme caution if anyone I know expresses an interest.

I studied Poekoelan for 9 years. I was taught by a student of Goeroe Niggle. His name was/is Dale McGinnis. The system was certainly fun and athletic. However I never felt I was really learning to fight really well. Probably cause I was in highschool at the time and wasn't really into fighting at the time. So 50% of it was my lack of desire to pick up on fighting hard. Some of the other students were very tough and fought very well. I have since met many Poekoelan instructors and students. My general observations are that the direct students of Barb Niggle and Goeroe Wetzel tend to be viscious and skilled in fighting. They practiced with little/no gear and at full contact. However, those I've met that are farther down on the tree of learning seem to be less skilled in actual fighting.

The system is not bullshido...however, that doesn't mean you're not training in a McDojo. Just use discression in your training and make sure the instructor seems to fight with skill.

The system is not bullshido...however, that doesn't mean you're not training in a McDojo. Just use discression in your training and make sure the instructor seems to fight with skill.

The quality of the system and it's training has deteriorated immensely. If you read the whole thread, you'll noticed that I acknowledged your point about some of the earlier members being able to fight.

That skill is NOT trickling down because when I was there, you got yelled at for hitting and there are no programs in place for people who want to go harder.

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant;
they too have their story.

I take it this lady is a relative of Janessa Kruse? Just wondered if any of the people with Poekelan experience know anything about her? The class uses the same gym as my Escrima class and is near where I work - based on what I've read here I'll urge extreme caution if anyone I know expresses an interest.

That's her sister.

I really like Karin, despite it all. She was never anything but nice to me and while I don't agree with any of what they do, I have a hard time summoning up the requisite animosity for her.

However, yes for christ's sake, warn people away from training there. It's still the same Kool-Aid.

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant;
they too have their story.

My little brother trains PTT now, after one of his tests (gold sash) I fought him (this is a year or so after I quit PTT). If we were point fighting, he would have won. The fight ended with me getting him in a full-nelson and him conceding reluctantly. After it was over one of the mid ranked students (blue or green sash I believe) bitched at me over the full-nelson. He told me that "its not Poekoelan". My only response was "I know, but it works".

For anyone who would like to know, the school in north portland that I used to train at was sold to Janesa probably about six months ago at this point. I believe the former owner Pendekkar Kati still teaches there.

I had a quick chat with someone who recently (a few months ago I believe) was promoted to black belt at the north portland school. They told me that if they were in it for just the art they would have left a long time ago. I'm glad to see that at least some of the higher ranks realized the futility of what they do (no to say the some of them don't kick ass regardless).

JP: I checked out the Straight Blast gym that you mentioned, I loved it. I would really like to train there, unfortunatly it is a little too expensive than my minimum wage job can afford. As soon as I can however, I'm gonna start training there.

I noticed that a few people who have read this thread have been editing the article on wikipedia. I agree with you, people should be informed, that is why I have not removed the link to this thread from that article. The problem is when people start using opinions as facts (must read for example) or trying to use unsubstantiated claims as facts. I am not saying I do not believe JP (cause I do), I am saying that as a wikipedia user I would like proof before what he has said is in that article. Mostly because proof makes others believe what you say. Wikipedia is a place for provable facts, unfortunantly JP's words are unsubstantiated claims at this point.

JP: I checked out the Straight Blast gym that you mentioned, I loved it. I would really like to train there, unfortunatly it is a little too expensive than my minimum wage job can afford. As soon as I can however, I'm gonna start training there.

Yeah, I'm sure there are other good gyms in Portland that don't cost that much. But none with Matt Thornton's reputation or sheer opposition to the "Martial Arts Cult."

Originally Posted by legoman60

I noticed that a few people who have read this thread have been editing the article on wikipedia. I agree with you, people should be informed, that is why I have not removed the link to this thread from that article. The problem is when people start using opinions as facts (must read for example) or trying to use unsubstantiated claims as facts. I am not saying I do not believe JP (cause I do), I am saying that as a wikipedia user I would like proof before what he has said is in that article. Mostly because proof makes others believe what you say. Wikipedia is a place for provable facts, unfortunantly JP's words are unsubstantiated claims at this point.

All I wanted kept on the wikipedia document was the link to this thread as an external source.

What connection do you have to Wikipedia beyond the freedom to edit that everybody is granted?

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant;
they too have their story.