Yes Zoe. I agree. A Christian walk is much more vibrant (or should be) than lists or rule following. It is about sourcing. I don't just want to follow a list. I am not wishing Him to tell me what to do. I want Him to source me until His perspective is mine. (Romans 12:2) Not even saying I'm there. But this much is clear. If we are in His will, we are full fledged in the middle of ministry. Jesus didn't have a ministry, He was ministry. His whole being was focused on others. When we stop trying and start trusting, that is submit ourselves to His will, (abiding) we become a glove that He thrust Himself into.

So yes, we can be fully saved, and yet fall back into our own resource, which then becomes legalism. Which of course is the flesh and produces no fruit. No matter how busy we might appear on the outside.

I've always liked the illustration of winning the lottery. If you won the lotter, would it change your lifestyle? Would you live in poverty? No. Would live as a beggar? Of course not. You would live as a millionaire. Your lifestyle does not determine your position. Your position determines your lifestyle. So, if we are in Christ, as Paul says, shouldn't we walk worthy of our calling? If we are believers, then we already have the position. Paul says, since you have this already, then live like it. Don't go back to being partakers with the lost.

Last edited by jlay on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

Kurieuo wrote: Grace is certainly God's part, and faith ours. However, this does not necessarily mean "grace" (God's part) is conditioned on "faith" (our part) which could contradict the meaning of grace.

Rather, I find it more coherent to believe "grace" does not apply to salvation broadly speaking, but rather only applies to the "issue which separates us from God". That is, it is by God's grace that the issue which separates us from God (sin) is no longer an issue, thanks be to Christ and the forgiveness and mercy offered because of His work. Thus, we are able to enter into relationship with God through faith in Christ (our part)…

….Grace is certainly God's part, and faith ours. However, this does not necessarily mean "grace" (God's part) is conditioned on "faith" (our part) which could contradict the meaning of grace.

Rather, I find it more coherent to believe "grace" does not apply to salvation broadly speaking, but rather only applies to the "issue which separates us from God". That is, it is by God's grace that the issue which separates us from God (sin) is no longer an issue, thanks be to Christ and the forgiveness and mercy offered because of His work. Thus, we are able to enter into relationship with God through faith in Christ (our part).

I only posted two quotes from a more Wesleyan point of view and I forgot to post the Calvinian point of view to balance. My error. Both Wesleyan and Calvinian points of view indeed blend together; however, both sides will deny that they can to the death. I was attempting to show how these blend but forgot to post John Gill. My error - So here goes…

John Gill writes in his commentary on Eph 2:8

...through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, John 6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

"And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)

The term I use "Lazy Grace" is something I use wake people up a bit to the work of the Holy Spirit within a believer – hence – it is people that are Lazy about Grace (Titus 2:11, 12, 13, 14). The good works are defined within the bible and involve first, change of heart i.e. character. Paul wrote much on this in Eph 5:8,9,10 and Eph 4:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 . Also in the anti legalism book of Galatians 5:16, 17, 18, 22, 23, 24, 25 and Gal 6:8, 9.

When character is being changed by the Lord – a person will live according to their character. They cannot hide it. It will show. When we call this legalism we make people lazy towards the grace that instructs us to recognize sin when it is exposed in many living diverse ways, then confess it, and learn to say No to it. Soon, after time, a person can conquer that particular sin, often they have to do battle against it but the good news – we can overcome!

You and I can overcome because of the shed blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit within us. Peoples faith are weak in this area – or lazy- lazy faith. I wrote a few key bible verse regarding this about knowing the hope of our calling. Don’t believe me on this matter – believe God who put his promises in the bible. Become strong in your faith. Live like a believer. Hear His word...

This does not mean we can reach a state or moral perfection in this mortal life, on the contrary – other areas of sin are exposed and dealt with until the Lord calls us home. If we teach hard against sin, we are call legalist but rather we teach liberty in Christ instead. This Grace instructing us, teaches us that we can say NO to sins. Ever thought you could? This is but one part of the process that changes ones character out of darkness to live according to light of God’s love.

When a person’s character changes, so does what they do and how they live. We make fun of this often and tell people that such change is not evidence that you are believer. People become lazy about grace again hearing the no change possibly shown ‘new convert’ who dies milliseconds after coming to Christ argument. How do we know that conversion doesn’t change one inwardly in ways not seen for such? We do not. God knows. He's a better Judge than I.

The results of this are people becoming more lazy about the grace and living miserably for a time until the Lord wakes them up. Yes, They can go into an all works mentally and burn out, or all grace mode that they do nothing but pew. Then suddenly they wonder – is there all there is? Why am I doing this? And not growing in my personal faith except further away from God and more cynical – then the Lord exposes the sins of selfish pride and love for stupid things that robs them of the relationship and liberty God promises to them and his people.

They then do and confess as 1 John 1:8, 9, 10 says and learn to say NO to ungodliness. As Christian thru the finished work of Christ, that right was purchased by the blood of Christ so we as believers can now say No to sins and thus our character changed out of darkness into his marvelous light. We need to be awaked to have faith in the Lord that He gave us the right to be transformed and changed.

This is the work of God’s Spirit. No one can stop it. It can be delayed, but not stopped. People bound by Lazy Grace don't know what to do. They can be either so confused by being told they can do nothing - they do nothing. The Lord still begins the change of their character but is as slow as molasses on a cold wintery day being poured outside.

The results is that of a changed character, overtime, will beam outward and show - made manifest. These manifestations are done because one Loves God and others in a manner that shapes how each governs their own affairs of life. If they fall in some sin, they run to the Lord, confess (owe up to it) and submit to the cleansing work of the Lord on the soul and life. This is something the bible teaches but again it is people that make grace lazy.

Faith is a gift from God - that's what the bible says. No debate needed here.

Question - how does God awaken faith in us so we can really have Faith in Him?

People living by lazy grace are like the person suddenly woken from a deep sleep, but not fully awake yet. They drift back to take a few extra winks, set the snooze alarm for 5 minutes longer, then another, and another 5 minutes. Much of what we teach fortifies snoozing and not faith that changes character out of darkness into God’s glorious light.

Let me end and again stated loudly:THIS IS NOT - NOT - NOT –NOT- WORKS BASED SALVATION. Christian People who go in that direction will burn out in due time and become discouraged. Jesus the Good Shepherd will go to that straying hurting sheep who lost his or her way and then gently bears them upon his shoulders and carries them back into the Fold. If anyone reading this is one tired of the rote of men's works and strayed away - be lifted up on the shoulders of Grace again!

The bible in both the Old and New Testament testifies in too many places that the Lord changes our character. His methods are his own and omni-personal to each Christian individual. Sometimes He uses us to check and waken a works based Christian to return to grace or shock another from the slumber of lazy grace…

Again: Do we have Faith?

Romans 8:29, 31 - "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.... 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?" ESV

Listen to the Word:

Eph 1:15. “Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:

“17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power...

“20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. ESV

How can God's Grace remain lazy within our hearts - may it be unleashed...Amen

Eph 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." ESV

-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

I think J’s Metro Ministries is fantastic and commendable. I see it and those involved doing this outreach from a sincere love for God that outwardly flows. This love goes beyond feelings.

Over the years, I met with the rank and file involved in many diverse Church outreach ministries. Very few of those I met do so out of ‘works based salvation’ mindset or dutiful ritual obligation out of guilt. They do what God puts on their hearts to do to show forth his love. Yes, there are those that get involved in such ministries out of guilt or a works based mode, but they usually move on. Most involved do so because they are in the process of a character transformation I wrote of and it shows.

The bottom line of my discourse is this – the workmanship God is shaping us into is to become a better reflection of Christ demonstrating God’s Love to those who see, meet, and know us. After all, as I heard on K-Love Radio a while back: We may be the only Jesus another see’s today…

The bible speaks volumes about love (agape and phileo) and how we are to walk in it. It is that walking is what constitutes the Good Works mentioned in Eph 2:10. It cannot be faked. It will remove fear of losing one’s personal salvation. It will cause increase. It will change character. It will take time. It will deliver.

We often ask, what is the modern church to do?. It is so big name leader oriented and fad frolicking and chasing. That is more evidence of people being lazy with grace – the grace of deliverance. However, the Lord does still work thru all this. Ministry outreaches go on with many good people.

What still needs to be done is to wake up people to the transforming work of the Holy Spirit does on the inside, the deliverance still needed, and God’s love that conquers the soul. With this, people will give more funds. But the great change will occur to those that know the Christian the best – family, friends, those around you. They’ll notice the change, see that you may not be perfect but at least you are real, it is there, where the real mission field resides.

It is the little foxes that spoil the vine. We desire the huge Church Universal to Change first, but it is the little foxes that spoil the vine. It is a reformation of life altering faith resting in God who predestined us to become a reflection of his love ... within each person that is needed before any big change can occur. Those closest to us see how the work of the Holy Spirit goes in our personal lives.

K wrote:and yet, I have witnessed Christians boast in their faith (and a great many Christians!)... this seems to also be a little incoherent.

i know you are addressing BW here, but can you give an example so we can better understand. Almost every testimony I hear is boasting on one's faith. not in the sense that they are bragging that they have done something, but boasting that the promises of God are true. When we repsond in faith, God delivers. Our lives are supposed to bear witness to that. Whose lives? our lives.

Hi Jlay,

Sorry about delay, been a bit preoccupied of late.

I have no problems with testimonies and believes they are great for edifying others.

When I stated this it came to my mind people who debate issues of creation, eschatology or the like as matters of primary salvation issues. Scripture for Evangelical Christians (like myself) is a cornerstone to Christian belief. However, sometimes Christians lift it up to the level of Christ when it comes to what one must accept to be truly saved.

For example, I don't with to debate the Genesis 1 creation here, but due to the popularity amongst many Evangelical churches of the young earth position, many YECs claim any Bible-believing person has to accept the days in Genesis were 24-hour periods of time. To not do so, means one does not believe the Bible. Furthermore, one's faith falls into question or suspicion. I still consider myself Scriptural and as having a very strong faith in Christ despite being Day-Age OEC.

Furthermore, I've seen many a Christian pride themselves on blindly following Christ and believe that philosophy, science and reason is evil. We are to unquestioningly believe, and that belief usually entails blindly accepting and following some pastor's (or denomination's) theology. Yet, I read in Scripture faith is based on reason. I consider myself to have a stronger faith than a Christian who may follow Christ blindly without reasons.

In any case, faith in the instances I have described can become a matter of boasting.