This discussion started with me pointing out that IWC movement finishing is as good as any other in quality of execution. The difference is in style and amount of embellishment. Lange came up because others use it as a standard for finishing quality, since their movements are so highly embellished. I am clearing up that confusion. The higher degree of embellishment does not make it better finished, or mean it was more labor intensive.

Yes, we all get that's YOUR opinion, Foo. You need to get that some others won't agree with you. I don't see why that's hard for you to understand.

But it is, that's what you need to grasp. Not everyone will agree with you, you need to grasp that as well.

That the same sort of embellishment, say perlage, can be executed to varying degrees of quality is not an opinion. It is fact. You need to understand that. Hence, more embellishment does not make something better embellished.

It is similarly not an opinion that not all hand-stitching is created equal, and more hand-stitching does not necessarily mean something is made better or took more time to make.

That the same sort of embellishment, say perlage, can be executed to varying degrees of quality is not an opinion. It is fact. You need to understand that. Hence, more embellishment does not make something better embellished.

It is similarly not an opinion that not all hand-stitching is created equal, and more hand-stitching does not necessarily mean something is made better or took more time to make.

Foo,

I agree with you on a lot of these points, but there is something that is being lost. More embellishment does imply a more labor intensive construction. More hand-stitching does necessarily imply more time - unless you are implying that the laborers are more skilled and can do more work in less time - that they are better craftsmen in one sense.

There is a distinction between finishing for purposeful vs. aesthetic reasons. I may agree with you in deciding that some of Lange's finishing is of the less authentic/desirable/valuable variety - but this is a personal judgement.

Criticizing the lack of purpose or necessity in embellishment and then praising it done "properly" in the next breath ins't very consistent or logical.

I'm about to pull the trigger on a Stowa Antea KS41 but really stuck on the strap. I found the lower end straps from Stowa rather poor quality. I wonder also if the bracelet would be the better choice.

Any other Stowa owners out there who have experience with the bracelet, croc or napa straps? Are they worth the money. Any other Antea or Tangomat owners who can advise the best strap colour? Thinking maybe navy or DB for versatility.

I upgraded to this medium croc from Stowa when I purchased mine. It's held up well.

Guys, mafoofan has a lot to offer this thread - he has a good breadth and depth of knowledge, which means that unlike some other posters it is at the very least potentially instructive to think about why he has arrived at the conclusions he has.

That said, he (like me, heh) does sometimes come across as a little brusque, so I propose that we all try to focus on the actual content in his posts, rather than the manner it is conveyed... (this applies to me too. )

How does anglage on non-moving plates decrease friction? All the movement of other parts will be lateral to the plates' surface. Perlage and Geneva stripes, on the other hand, are very functional for that reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Anglage on gear teeth like you show is not common, even amongst the high-end makers mentioned. Since gears only rotate laterally, I cannot see how that kind of finishing would be helpful. The profile and regularity of the teeth are infinitely more important, and what we look to when judging movement design and finish. You generally want very sharp, defined edges on teeth, not anything rounded off. After all, precision is key. As for other moving parts that go unseen, IWC does chamfer where it is functional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

What do you mean by "greater hand-finishing?" Again, there is a difference between the degree of embellishment, and the quality of finish. In terms of embellishment, IWC movements don't really register. They have always verged on a more serious, engineered approach. So, superficial anglage is not to be seen (such as on plates).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I see great merit in this more honest approach. A lot of more eye-catching movements distract you with flourish, but lack in true quality of finish. In contrast, IWC finishing has been known to be painfully immaculate, though more spartan. Does that make IWC finishing less "great?" I don't think so at all. I'm much more interested in how well the finishing applied has been executed. How fine and regular are the cotes de Geneve? Are edges razor sharp or are they burred and pitted under magnification? Is perlage applied with care, such that the "pearls" are equal in size and placed in a regular, consistent pattern, or is it haphazard (such as in the case of Rolex)? Are you more interested in dazzle or quality?

I apologise in advance if you already know any of the following; do not take this as me patronising you:

Yes, anglage has broad cosmetic appeal when done well, but there is a genuine practical reason for its presence. The original intention of anglage was to reduce the amount of square edges on watch parts so that 1. edges would be less likely to be damaged during servicing (a square edge is more susceptible to accidental damage than a rounded one), and 2. you essentially guarantee that the edges are free of burrs or other debris left over from their original make. Another reason which I have heard but am not totally convinced of is that it indirectly testifies to the quality of the metal used as only quality metal can take a good polish.

Taking all the above into consideration, their presence on large fixed parts like bridges, plates makes perfect sense to me. To use an example you may be familiar with, the IWC Jubilee Portuguese had all large fixed parts anglaged beautifully.

With regards to anglage on gear teeth - I was once told by a Piaget watchmaker that thinner movements are subject to a miniscule amount of flex with shocks, and that beveling compensates for that to a degree. That said, I agree that "excessive" anglage on gear teeth will affect their precision as a consequence to the potentially increased amount of play between gear teeth.

If you were however referring to the profile of the gear teeth (I do not think you were), cycloidal gear teeth have always been traditional in watches. Your IWC, my JLC, Dino's Cartier - they all carry cycloid gears.

For another “frippery” you mention, the original intention of Cotes de Geneve/perlage was to provide a surface texture to flat bits of the movement that served to trap runaway oil, along with whatever debris it carried - burrs, dust, etc. Hence their presence, while arguably more conventionally aesthetically pleasing, has a sober mechanical reason as well. I do agree that there is well done/poorly done examples of both (c.f. Rolex), and that one should not equate their presence automatically with "better watch movement". Referring to the example I mentioned earlier, the IWC Jubilee Portuguese has both copious perlage and CdG-ing.

The original intention of blued screws is a little more nebulous to me. From what I have been able to gather it's either 1. just for looks, or 2. a flourish to demonstrate the superior polishing on the screw head. There is a possibility that the latter reason is apocryphal. That said I do not have any preference for/against as I am not against adornment for adornment's sake - which is not the same as adornment covering up for or distracting from suboptimal engineering choices. To use the same example again, IWC's Jubilee Portuguese had no blued screws because there is no tradition of bluing screws in IWC's history, or more specifically in the specific pocketwatches that provided the inspiration for the Jubilee, This makes perfect sense to me. Old Lange on the other hand, had such a tradition, and I do not begrudge new Lange for doing so and citing tradition as a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

As for whether IWC could embellish their movements more than they do: as I pointed out above, all the finishing you see on Lange watches was taught to Lange by IWC. However, Lange finishing is far from "honest." The most obvious example of what I mean is the screwed chatons securing the jewels. The screws and chatons are completely without added function. They just look pretty. Nobody else uses them and Lange thought it would be one way to distinguish themselves.

As for screwed gold chatons, I do not hold any particular preference for/against them. I agree that they as a technological development they are obsolete and unnecessary on modern mechanical watches, but if you adopt that frame of mind aren’t mechanical watches obsolete as well, with excellence within the mechanical watch world akin to winning the Special Olympics? Or another more PC example: it’s like handstitching on shirts - obsolete as we have machine stitching now, which is faster/easier to do well, always finer, and finally at least as secure, but handstitching is still “nice” to have when done well.

You’ve repeated the allegation that new Lange is the only company to do screwed gold chatons over and over - there are a few companies aside from new Lange that do screwed chatons, so it’s not a phenomenon specific to new Lange.

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Originally Posted by marvin100

You may want to ask yourself who, precisely, is being a "prick" in this conversation. Poor form, sir.

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Originally Posted by rnguy001

And I agree people should be encouraged to voice their opinions no matter how taboo or harsh it may seem or come across, certainly there are many many guys on here whose knowledge and writing skills blow mine out of the water; but in the end I'm just happy to learn a thing or two here every now and then and contribute when I can. Noob? Maybe. Prick? I highly doubt. I think it's pretty obvious to everyone who the real pricks on the forum can sometimes be.. and I'll leave it at that.

Yikes, I knew I should have appended a or a after that line, because it was actually meant to be a bit of a tee hee wink wink nod nod comment, not some serious puritanical indictment of IWC wearers.

I apologise for offending both of you, and to the silent others who may be offended at my lame attempt at humour!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerP

Well you would know about pure bizzaro territory, that much is certain.

I think I've addressed all the points in your original post, and shown how your proposition was without basis in reality. You would be a more useful contributor to this thread if you at least owned your mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnguy001

I guess I"m not sure why there's this resentment towards IWC. I understand their current designs and probably their direction as a brand seems to go against their history, but I'm not sure it truly justifies the animosity it sometimes gets. Aside from the huge Hollywood-ish galas, IWC has been great in promoting its watches in general, and yes as polarizing as they can be, I feel they can offer a nice change-up to other more classic models and brands out there. Whether one feels they are over-priced for what they offer is debatable, since hey do sell pretty well in the US and overseas, I do appreciate their role in the watch market as a choice for many watch lovers who appreciate their aesthetic - not good not bad, just IWC.

Popularity has nothing to do with intrinsic, objective, quality and that I think that is what many are reacting against – that IWC has taken or is appearing to take the fastest shortcut to mass popularity. It’s like the kid who everyone knows is brilliant cheating in an exam as opposed to studying – all the more regrettable given he actually has the tools to make it without the shortcut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Lange today has no genuine heritage. It is a re-imagined company, like Breguet, trying to draw tenuous connections with a distant past. The original Lange never made wristwatches and went defunct before screwed chatons became obsolete. The blued screws are similarly silly.

Moreover, the finishing quality is not as good as the likes of Patek. Viewed closely, it is simply not as fine and careful. It is just more flashy. Like an alligator suit.

I think this depends on the particular Patek and the particular new Lange. Pateks as you are well aware have different levels of finishing, and Lange finishing while qualitatively different (“louder”) than Patek are quantitatively superior to other examples of “loud” finishing, such as say Dornblueth or GO; within the alligator suit spectrum there are still better and worse made alligator suits.

I suspect you are against “louder” finishes in general - which would be in line with your other preferences - so even if a Lange were to finished “as well” as a Patek it would still fall short in your estimation. That said, while I don’t subscribe to that POV, I don’t see anything wrong with that point of view as well.

I'd rather read someone's real and non-sugarcoated opinion — especially coming from someone with Apropos' depth and breath of knowledge — than the usual mollycoddling drivel that passes for discussion on the forums where everyone is a special flower. The freedom of being able to say what you mean, without condescending and humourless moderation turning the place into a wasteland of clueless noobs, is what makes this the best watch thread on the internet and brings in the heavy hitters who know how to write.

The false dichotomy you present stands in stark contrast to the gentlemanly behavior frequently advocated on this site.

Just saw the video on Hodinkee. Interesting piece, but I'm definitely saving up for an IWC Portuguese, has been on my wanted list for a year now...

Yeah it's freakin' sick piece. I already have a speedy, so the next watch will have to be something dressy, and I've had my eye on the portuguese forever. If I were in the market for another sports watch, I'd get the tag above if the price was right. Lately Tag has really impressed me, and given the pieces can be had on significant discount, I find it more and more appealing