Yo, Joe -- I think he confused you with me. I'm the ex-Marine. Yes, I got shot at, and fired a few rounds myself. I got nicked a couple of times -- nothing bad enough to get me sent home early. All this makes my opinion worth about the same as anyone's, veteran or not. A limited nuclear strike is the last of a string of bad options, as has been noted elsewhere on this thread. Unfortunately, you may end up being correct. Radical Muslims see every conflict as an end game, and will most likely push us to that extreme. They will never give up their hostility towards Israel, and Israel knows that all too well. All "peace" -- all truces --in that region are merely temporary opportunities to reload. The US and Western Europe continue to seek rational answers to an irrational issue. We think economic cookies and gentle threats will entice the enemy over to our way of thinking, but I fear all this just stalls the inevitable. I don't like the stated premise of the Iraq war -- Bush's spin -- but we had to take that regime on, simply because Saddam was determined to test our resolve. Somebody was taking notes when we abandoned Viet-Nam. I don't like the conduct of the war -- we're dragging things out by trying to appear reasonable. War is the breakdown of reason. Once the shooting starts, winning becomes the only option. Save the apologies for later. Even now, we could achieve some credibility by court martialing Saddam, shooting his hairy ass with the attendant pomp of a public execution, committing to victory, winning, and establishing a permanent presence in the area. But that will not happen. The farce will be played out until somebody fires the first nuclear weapon. It's just too easy nowadays for any swingin' dick to get his hands on one.

Yes, I was replying to Joe as well as Clifton and afterwards predicted the confusion that Clifton straightened out. Of course we lost the war in Vietnam but as Clifton can support there were several counterinsurgency programs utilized during that conflict that were successful. Such as the USMC Combined Action Companies that evolved into Combined Action Platoons and the overall Combined Action Program. The USMC also took those lessons to Somalia during the peace mission there and was successful. Overall, the USA is not utilizing good counterinsurgency warfare tactics in Iraq. That doesn't mean going there was a mistake. The mistakes are that certain units are utilizing sound counterinsurgency tactics and others are not. Going around chasing the bad guys out of an area is fine but you have to provide adequate civil affairs while simultaneously putting pressure on the bad guys where they go next. Another thing is that an insurgency is a civil war. Iraq has been under a civil war since the fascist Baathist Party took power decades ago. The Baathists actual got their start from Nazi Germany. In fact, the entire region would spit at images of Winston Churchill and praise Adolph Hitler during WWII. You have to stay on top of these radical Muslims or they will take advantage. For example, I have a healthy respect for Hizbollah. They did put up a good defense and were better prepared than Israel on this go around. And Hizbollah is also doing a good job of putting a Hizbollah-to-the-people face on the reconstruction. Also, lets not forget that Hizbollah and Hasan Nasrallah publicly denounced the 9/11 terrorist attacks. That is why I criticized the Iran should pay for the rebuilding remarks. Hizbollah has its shit in one sock. One thing a lot of people don't realize is that a successful counterinsurgency is 80% civil affairs and 20% armed military action. It is a low intensity conflict. Keep that in mind when you think about the amount of time our military has been fighting in the region and compare that same time frame with 50-53 in Korea, and 65-68 in Vietnam for which we suffered 30,000 KIA in each conflict. And both those conflicts are also considered low intensity armed conflicts. Totally blaming the current Administration plan of actions is forgetting that this country has an entire history of going to war completely unprepared. We suck at going to war but learn as we go along. And because of the nature of this particular enemy the anti-war drum does more harm than good. Just be thankful this particular president didn't put a sedition clause in the Patriot Act because I sure as hell would of. And put yourself back when you were in Vietnam. The tens-of-thousands of Americans protesting back home did nothing for your safety except provide aid and comfort to the enemy in the short term and a victory in the long term. Now we have come full circle just because we don't like the current President? That makes no sense. It makes about as much sense as a political party running a known counterinsurgency war protestor for President during the middle of a counterinsurgency war.

Look, I don't like the imbalance of power in this country but I vote based on at least an educated guess. I was a Democrat from 1978 thru 2002. I didn't walk into the local teacher's union hall and change my voter registration because of age. The Democrats have been suffering a net loss during elections since 1994. Whose fault is that? Why is that? Do you think maintaining the exact same strategy that loses elections over all is going to work this time unlike the last time? Are you going to be fooled by poll numbers again and again? Give me a break with some meaningful ideas. Feed me.

I also had the luxury of serving my enlistment in the USAF. Unfortunately, it was during a period when you could pick your job before you got on the bus. One day at Ft. Benning during Jump Week I spent 8 hours on the tarmac and another 4 hours waiting in the parked aircraft when I noticed the USAF Loadmaster drinking a Pepsi, eating a twinkie, and reading Playboy. I knew then that I had chosen poorly. BTW, the rest of the stick were Marines. You can't imagine what it was like going through Jump School with a group of Marines. They damn near killed me screwing up causing all of us physical punishment for which they thrived on.

But all flamethrowing aside. If you really want to know what is going on then you have to study it because it is very complex.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2006/RAND_MG454.pdf

In this study you will find some tangible rather than made up reasons against fighting the jihadists in Iraq from a small wars perspective. What we are doing correctly and in what areas we are failing. It is over 250 pages. It is a serious work and not for the impatient reader.

As long as there are Muslims and Jews the Muslims will start a war with the Jews. The only solution is the elimination of one or the other. As I have no desire to live in an Islamic dominated world that means the elimination of Muslims is the only solution.

This is thoughtful, and I agree with most of what you say. I have only a couple of random observations.

CA can work (and has, as you note) in limited applications. A true Democracy, it seems to me, must be born in rebellion. I just don't think we can superimpose one on Iraq, Iran, or any other monocharchy/dictatorship from the top down. The people have to want it bad enough to die for it. Israel does. So far, Iraq and the other problem areas do not have a grass-roots majority willing to rebel and make the necessary sacrifices. There are too many factions, and most of them are based on 20 to 30 centuries of religious partisanship. Our democracy began as a political protest, with people who were willing to die for political freedom. Religion was a minor issue in the actual breakaway from the English monarchy.

We cannot win a conventional war in the Middle East without a true national commitment. Viet-Nam taught us that. We had the advantage of forced conscription (the draft) during those years, and still couldn't unify the country on the issues. To win the war, as it is now being fought, we need a unified commintment on the national level, and a draft. I just don't think that is going to happen, because people who were on the fence at the onset of Iraq (and still willing to weigh all sides of the issues) now feel hoodwinked by Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney.

The upcoming elections should be most interesting, since Lieberman's defeat was an anti-war statement. Will some kind of national consensus emerge? I fear not. As a nation, we will continue to be polarized on the issue. Sooner or later, as we muddle on, somebody will fire the first nuclear round. It will probably be dirty and clumsy -- something scud-like -- and it will push things to a new level of irrationality. This whole mess is beginning to look more and more like pre-WWI. Lots of folks are spoiling for a fight, and this brew is starting to ferment. Maybe Darwin was right. Once again, the human gene-pool is about to get a purging. Hopefully, I won't live to see it. I want to die with some lipstick on my dick and a 20-dollar cigar in my mouth, not from some flash burn. Cheers, all.

Unfortunately, I fear it's going to take a catastrophy much larger than 9-11 to unite the civilized world in this fight against evil...and evil is as good a word to describe the radical Islamists as any.

I just don't see how any effort to unite western civilization can happen without addressing the basic problem we are facing. We keep tilting and reacting to the threat without actually confronting the issue of whether or not we are going to allow militant dictators to aquire nukes. If we are not prepared to intervene and stop these nuts from getting nukes than we are simply wasting our time trying to confront this ideology.

On the flip-side, if we are serious about protecting civilization from unfathomable consequences than we had better debate and come to an agreement on a united effort to stop it from happening.

History suggests we are going to have to be thrown into chaos before any sort of unity can be achieved. Let's just hope we have a Winston Churchill around when it happens. As it stands now, we have an abundance of Neville Chamberlains.

I totally agree with you about the dieing thing! My uncle Jack at 90 was leaving his 60 year old girlfriends apartment after an afternoon of bliss when he stepped into the street from behind a parked car and was flattened by a bus. He was on his way to the liquor store to buy some Champagne! I've always admired uncle Jack a lot.

A true democracy is an impossibility in any Islamic based government/society. As Islam does not believe in any separation of church and state a democracy can't happen. I still say nuke em all! It's gonna' have to be done anyway. It's better done now before they can nuke us than later when we have to retaliate because Pittsburgh or Cleveland is no more. Although, the loss of Cleveland might not be such a bad thing!

Yo, Monty & Joe -- I fear you are both right. We seem to be in an age where intellectuals are more interested in destroying the difference between what's right and what's wrong than recognizing it. Complacency, I fear, will do us in. That particular branch of postmodernism called "posthistoricism" has led many graduate-school pundits to actually believe that resource-rich, radically-led "3rd world" countries want to simply live alone and be themselves. In reality, they will eagerly sell to the highest bidder, be it for money or ideology. This ostrich-doctrine has spread to politics (most bullshit flows downhill, from academia), hence the "globalist" naivetes that assume all God's Chilluns jes' wants a new SUV, hi-def TV, and i-Pod, and these are attainable only if you can vote for them. In fact, as Joe notes, Islam has no interest in Democracy and will die to stop its spread. I think I'll tip a few to Uncle Jack. 10,000 virgins, my ass...

Separation of church and state is not a perquisite to a democracy. It's an illusion unique to America like a magician at a public school pulling a quarter that is embossed with "In God We Trust" out of the ear of some unsuspecting student. Preventing teachers and students from carrying money with religious overtones printed on them into a public school is something the ACLU has overlooked in their zeal to remove religious nativity scenes. In fact, the ACLU is going to meetings on government property with the same money in their possession. Heaven forbid, it is even stashed in the petty cash box in the principle's office.

In reality that would cause a genocide. But there is truth in your statement. It would have to be something just this side of genocide. Nevertheless, is it just me or has a shit load of Muslims been killed since 9/11? From war, to natural disasters, to accidents. A ton of Muslims have been killed. You're right though. Every few hundred years the Muslims get out of control going around trying to convert everyone and the civilized world ends up having to kick their asses. The only difference this time is that the battlefield is literally worldwide. In the end, the Muslims will get their asses kicked again. Unfortunately, they will get their licks in before anyone or anything gets the job done. As usual, we won't be able to break enough of our own rules or give up various petty civil liberties to prevent them of hurting us really bad before it comes to that. We're going to fight for various petty civil liberties and cry about breaking our own rules until the day these morons kill a shit load of us on a astronomical level. Until then, we will fight this conflict with one hand tied behind our backs. Yeah Team!

Right now we're fighting this conflict with both hands tied behind our backs. We only have to wait. Iran, Pakistan or some radical group supported by one of them will start it all. Sometimes I envy my Uncle Jack getting out while the getting was good.

Joe, Lamont, Monty, somebody mentioned appeasement. It must be late Summer during an electon year: George Soros is at it again. Go to Georgesoros.com, look on the right under "Media Appearances," and click on "August 15, WSJ," for his latest whinery. Soros made a fortune selling the British Pound short last decade, and is multiplying it buy doing the same with the $USD. He runs a multi-billion dollar hedge fund. He spends each election year pimping for the left, advocating peace and universal love for our Muslim brothers. If you need an emetic, this should do the trick. I am on his e-mail list, somehow. I can't wait to reply to this latest. I promise I won't be on his mailing list after he reads my response. Particularly annoying is his wheedling tone. This clown whines more disgustingly than McGovern used to, and he isn't even running for office. Cheers, all.

If we weren't so dependent upon foreign oil, how different things would be? It is a choice we made long ago to really do nothing on the energy front. How we thought that $3 - $5 gallon gas was not going to bite us in the butt at some point is beyond me. I guess we thought that only Europeans needed to pay that kind of money. And now OUR money is growing more worthless every day across the world. $2,000/pair Triangles now $2800.00. They are not any more exotic now then they were 4 years ago.

We can't even deal with our southwestern border, let alone deal with ones thousands of miles away. Unless we intend to occupy Iraq forever, nothing will be solved. On their own the people of Iraq will never have a democratic state. It only takes one or two madmen to destabilize a country. Now Israel and Lebanon are at it again and more innocent people die. My fear is that part of the world will never be stable in my children's or their children

I wonder in which forum members lifetime has the world been a stable place?

I also wonder (really this isn't rhetorical) how we can instil in others respect for our way of life.

I believe that your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Wars and force will kill alot of bad guys. However it will also catalyze the transition of moderate muslims into terrorists. Its as if the same blade used to cut out the cancer also causes it.

who what where and how to cut are so far from having a straight forward anwser it would be laughable were it not entirely depressing.

Perhaps i read previous posts incorrectly but my understanding is that the anihilation of Islam was actually proposed as a viable solution? We absolutely cannot win a fight against islam as a whole. besides the fact that there are nearly a billion of them, with huge populations in nuclear capable places like India, I would rather die than be party to genocide. this country is filled with young americans like me who would sacrafice everything to defend freedom of religion. Besides that, are we sure that Islam is the end all and be all of the problem. Might other factors such as ignorance, corruption, and economy play fundamental roles in the development of a terrorist?

And my little civil liberties that lamont refered too, you can pry them from my cold dead hands. Seriously, I believe in the right to bear arms because I don't trust the government to protect my freedom, not because i might run into some riff-raff.

That's the end game, Windzilla, as unsavory as it obviously is. At the bottom of it all, we may all be polecats, pissing on each other's footprints until we make actual contact, when tooth and claw take over. I don't like it. You have a fellow in Iran who said it, unashamedly: "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth." Our Western sensibility assumes hyperbole, but I think he really means it. You are right -- none of us has lived in a trouble-free age. The only thing that makes today different is the magnitude of our weapons. And it no longer takes decades of research to design effective delivery systems. All it takes is one asshole with a plastic tube on his shoulder. We are in a situation, as Jim described, where we're damned if we stay and cowards if we leave. We can't stay, we can't walk away. Hopefully, Iran will deal. Our wretched human history suggests otherwise. All it takes is one man willing to die...and there are lots more than that out there. Will sanity prevail? Will people actually sit down and reason? I hope so. But I doubt it.

Islam is the problem! Radical Islam is the impetus behind it. The president of Iran is calling for the elimination of Israel. By the way India is mostly Hindu. The majority of the Muslims lived in Pakistan which seceded from India. There is no real difference between moderate Muslims and the radicals. The moderates are just keeping quiet and biding their time. I will say this again.

Please pay attention.

The goal of Islam is a world of Islam. Islam leaves no room for any other religion or philosophy. The way the Taliban ruled Afghanistan is a very good example of what the true aim of Islam is. Either you are willing to fight for your present way of life or get yourself a towel, wrap it around your head and make all your women cover up. Islam accepts no compromises.

Windzilla, although you seem reluctant to admit or recognize it Islam is the problem. It is not about poverty, government or anything you think is worth it. If you are not willing to fight to protect your freedoms you will end up with none and be forced to convert to Islam.

I am afraid so, Joe. The only scant hope, over the long haul, is for a populace rebellion. This happened in the USSR, basically, because enough people wanted to simply live quality lives, and to hell with ideological dogma. But, relative to the Mullahs, the Soviet dogma was merely political -- their state religion was Atheism and it is a much shorter step from there to rebellion than it is from a rigid, abstract religious dogma to a real concern for the here and now. Even the poorest of the poor will die for spiritual convictions, as opposed to rebelling against religious authority. Scant hope, indeed. This foul brew has been putrifying for 30 or more centuries -- the addition of the Christian West to the mix has simply made it more volatile. I fear you are right -- finally, it will be "kill or be killed," rather than "can't we all just get along"? And, yes, Windzilla, we had better land the first crippling blows. Like it or not, they are our enemies, out of current choice and historical necessity, and they are rapidly acquiring the capability to hurt us. It doesn't sound very reasonable, sensitive, or politically correct, but Joe is probably right: in the memorable words of Patton, "...your job isn't to die for your country, it's to make some other poor bastard die for his..." or words to that effect. Do we have the guts to protect ourselves? We'll see.

I have been saying pretty much the same thing about Islam for 10 years. Things have only gotten worse in that time. I've also been complaining about illegal immigration for the same amount of time. The government doesn't want to deal with that even though it's close to home.

I would love to see a plan that involves killing 1.4 billion people from Indonesia to India, without totally screwing ourselves in the process.

Not only is a massive anti-muslim military campaigne evil, its also insane. Do you think India, China or Turkey will open there doors and let us march right in? do you really want to give up the cheapo socks from Indonesia? Should I take out my dentist?

all this hyperbole about taking out the trash is nice, but it won't fly in the real world.

the attack islam thing has never been on the table, and it never will be. We have to find different ways to destroy our enemies, I would start by befriending their children.

Of course not. Nor are all Christians the enemies of Allah. Magnificent exceptions abound, as they have in all the conflicts that have bloodied our history. But this isn't about individuals, unfortunately. War is collective. And this one is coming over the hill. I am not cheering the process on. I am not suicidal. I just want to keep living until my bad habits kill me, not some outside collective necessity. If only the collective could reason and feel as the individual. But, by definition and action, that is impossible. We all get swamped by the herd movement. I have seen this movie before. It has a bad ending. I hope neither you nor I lives to see the farce play out. But I have a bad feeling about this one. Let's hope I am wrong. The Sox? They are actually doing okay, considering the pitching they have lost. True, the Yanks are hot now, but there's always September. Nothing has been decided yet. I have been an athlete long enough to know that Runyon was right: "...no contest involving human beings should be laid down bigger than 6-5, pick 'em." The Yanks have the edge, for now, but 30 some-odd games is a long, long road to travel. Poor Cubs.

Have you ever been to the Middle East? Do you watch the news or follow world events? There is no non-violent way to solve the Islam problem. Befriending children who already have the hate America mindset is not only a stupid idea, it's a waste of time. People like you who stick their heads in the sand and hope things will get better are just like Neville Chamberlain. When are you going to believe and understand that Muslims are ready and willing to die for their wacko religious values. While you and all the other non-violent give them a time out people will end up dead because to you nothing is worth fighting for. Yes, we should nuke North Korea if it becomes necessary.

How about this idea. Only people who have served in the military should be allowed to vote! Service is voluntary and if you volunteer they have to take you.

Quote:When are you going to believe and understand that Muslims are ready and willing to die for their wacko religious values...Yes, we should nuke North Korea if it becomes necessary.

I have been following your postings in this thread with increasing discomfort, JoeE, as well as those by others expressing the same thoughts. You might not feel you are expressing racist thoughts, and perhaps I take it personally, both having a Korean sister-in-law and having friends who follow the Islamic religion. But it seems to me that once you categorize an entire race as being your "enemy" and calling for them to be killed, you have crossed the line between strongly expressing your ideas and inciting racist violence.

This is not the forum for such behavior. Any further postings from you in which you express such thoughts will be deleted.

Being a black American I have more familiarity with racism than you can possibly imagine. I also have Korean friends who agree with nuking North Korea. In the neighborhood where I live Islam is a major religion. You can't be black in America without having Islamic friends. I have not advocated killing Arabs or Jews or any specific race. Radical followers of Islam have been my target. There is no specific or particular "race" involved.

My nuke korea comment was a sarcastic sentiment. Though the current diplomatic situation with them does concern me, I was hoping that it would be seen as such, given the light of my preceeding comment (take out my dentist) I apologise if it was interpreted differently.

JoeE having spent time volunteering in parts of Africa (putting my money where my mouth is with the children thing), I have been faced with minority status myself, to be on your side of the coin, in the USA is not something I would desire. Regardless of your personal experiances with racism, what you seem to be rationalizing is genocide. Untill now I have chalked up your comments as hyperbole, underwhich lies some true sentiment, but perhaps I have my head in the sand after all.

Quote:As long as there are Muslims and Jews the Muslims will start a war with the Jews. The only solution is the elimination of one or the other. As I have no desire to live in an Islamic dominated world that means the elimination of Muslims is the only solution.

Joe - Smiley face aside, the above quote seems pretty all encompassing and makes no mention of diffentiating radicals. I imagine you can see how this might not be perceived in the kindest light. While I can't say I know what it's like to be black, I know what it's like to not be white, and to me, your posts were coming across as John interpreted them.

Art Dudley must be laughing his ass off (if he is even aware of this thread). As I recall, this discussion began as one of the offshoots of complaints about Art's mixing of politics with his equipment reviews.

John, I can understand your uneasiness with some of the rhetoric being tossed around here. But you have to understand a few things about Joe and me, too. We saw a futile conflict, a war, up close, as participants. Joe helped clean up some of the blood, and I spilled a little of my own. I also wrote a dozen or so letters to the parents of young Marines who perished while under my command. This changes the way you think, writing patriotic platitudes to grieving kin. Joe and I were individual extensions of group-think.

I know Joe, as a comrade in arms and an intelligent fellow, doesn't mean to indict all Muslims, or all Koreans. Again, you must understand that both of us were involved, up close and personal, with another "blanket" enemy, Communism. War does that. Neither of us would allow that all Communists are evil -- just the ones who declare war against us.

We didn't invent the word, Jihad, in the United States. It is a radical Muslim term. There are many Muslims (and Koreans) who are wonderful Americans. Joe and I know this. It is impossible to adopt an Olympian enough perspective to determine who is "right" and who is "wrong," once the bullets start flying. "Head in the sand" is a phrase that describes many who do not want to face the terrible fact that we are at war, as I write this. People are dying and getting blown apart. I have been shot. It isn't fun. Joe has cleaned up the mess left from others who have been shot. That's no fun either. I don't know what it's like to be nuked, but it can't be any worse than a 50 caliber in the guts. "Appeasement" was not meant as an insult or slur. From a soldier's perspective, when somebody declares war on you, you had better listen and act. Complain about the abrasive style...fine. But we are at war. All else is illusion. Joe and I both deplore innocent casualties, but peripheral damage is inevitable...and better them than us. Sorry if that sounds callous. Cheers and, I do mean this, happy listening. Clifton

Some of MY BEST audio equipment is BLACK...amps, pre amp, Etude FM tuner,Rane,LEGACY Low Frequency Damping control, Furman AC units, Philips changers some of my BEST equipment is BLACK....Even the AVA Hafler P500 amps are all BLACK!!!....even my VPI TT M III is BLACK.........There is even a PURPLE HHB CD recorder sitting under the BLACK BenchMark DAC/ADC, is that kinda ironic, since PURPLE is sort of a happy gayish color and it's under the BLACK one...hahahahahahaman it's scaaaaaarey. The HHB must be the receiver, noooo, it's a CD recorder, I don't have any receivers, all separates. Anyone a SCIENTOLOGIST? That is one religion where you can still meet the creator, and tell him to his face, it's all Bullshit....can't find any of the other one who made up some shit.... I also know some Koreans......drive a Kia Rio, you will get pretty pissed off at them.....how do they still call that a car? Didn't know they could make truck lids so thin, and still call it a car.....Kia rio is enough to start a war.....scaaaaaarey, if it ain't GERMAN, it ain't a car..

Yup, it's all fun and games until someone insults someone else's sister-in-law.

Hey, my wife's family is German, but I'm still in favor of D-Day.

I say, cut JoeE some slack. It's tough trying not to offend friends and relations when discussing who to nuke vs. who to just invade.

I'm part native American, and I find all you Judeo-Christians to be offensive monotheists with sickly pale skin and fine hair. If y'all hadn't been so efficient at genocide, y'all would be paying me rent for your fancy New York apartments instead of sending Leona Helmsley all your checks.

No fair with the "but I just arrived from Great Britain" crap, you know you're guilty.

I am willing to accept reparations, in case you'd like to make it up to me. Take up a collection and send me a pair of MBL 110's or whatever their Teutonic model number is these days.

JA, in the entire 6,000 year existence of the universe, no racist violence has ever successfully been incited by an audiophile or at an audiophile site. I hope that helps assuage some of your angst about JoeE being effectual enough to actuallly incite racist violence. Now, maybe if we were sitting around a Munich beer garden...

Thanks, Buddha. Loner, any time, and I mean it -- and thank you for the comment. Jeff, you're not getting paid to spell. Concentrate on the campaign...my PR boys will worry about the alphabet. Besides, who can read any of it, these days? Okay, Buddha. Now, here's the deal. Your ancestors got snookered. Sorry. No seller's remorse. A deal's a deal. Your covert point, however, is well taken -- at the bottom of it all, we're all thieves and land-grabbers. Music is our only hope. If only...well, maybe we need another Timotheus to run the show. At least he would know how to properly orchestrate this masque.

The DUTCH where the first to relize how to set up and sell stuff and fleece the Indians in the 1600's....they settled in what is now Manhattan, "Fresh Kills" landfill on Staten Island, pretty funny, Fresh Kills is DUTCH wording....ain't nutin' fresh about it...ain't that now closed, world's biggest landfill, musta' been setup by a Phd...piled higher and deeper. Some of my best cars are GERMAN.....matter o' fact, the entire highway system is based on their idea of AutoBahn, NEVER insult them, they made it all. Like Elvis, before anyone did anything, the Geramns invented it or discovered it...Now go take a BAYER aspirin, and stave off that heart attack. Worrying all about how one group of nuts insults another...my god is better than your god. It's almost like listening to audio nuts talk about the benefits of one wire shape over another. Analog over digital, tubes over SS. AVA/Legacy over McIntosh/Audio Research/Wilson When it's all overwit' The winner will once again be the common ROACH.....oh, there goes one now....

Every day I thank the graces above that I have the right to disagree with you, and that you, my father, uncles, and grandparents were willing to risk/loose there lives protecting it.

JoeE, clifton said you "moped up" so to speak, were you a medical officer? reserves enlisted or what, I am a medical student and have been courted by the Army Reserve Medical Corps.

I have, and will continue to, get lots of information from lots of people before making a commitment, but if you had any first hand experiences, or inside knowledge you would like to share, I would be happy to put personal opinion aside and get your insights, PM me if you feel like it.

I take your points, Clifton. But I repeat: calls for the extermination of an entire race or religious group on this forum will be deleted.

Substitute the word "jews" or "blacks" for "North Koreans" or "Muslims" and you have exactly the sentiment that underlay centuries of hate, victimization, and genocide, regardless of whether anyone feels they are "defending" the homeland by expressing such sentiments.

I think the scariest moment of ethnic/religious/racist hate I've ever experienced came after 9/11 when the PTB (powers that be) came up with the propogandist term "homeland."

How could anybody possibly be against "homeland security" and still love America? The PTB could do any old thing they wanted and just shrug it off as "homeland security."

Then came the "Patriot Act."

WTF, "Patriot Act?"

I immediately invested in the jackboot futures market.

At that point, I became convinced that Goebbels was not dead, he had been hidden away in the basement of Pravda and then shipped here when the wall came down.

Those things could end up being a worse tragedy than 9/11 itself.

What we really gotta watch out for is is a government of rich white men findings ways to divide our own country, and those "patriotic" terms are the weapons we need to be most wary of.

Yeah, I may not trust Muslim countries or North Korea, but at this point, I don't trust my own, either.

But, I digress...

Anyway, if I try JA's race substitution idea, I get lost. Does it matter what color or religion the people in charge of North Korea are? I'd be against 'em if they were crackers like me. I think JoeE doesn't like them for reasons other than ethnicity or race.

Plus, saying, "Let's nuke the Jews in Iran" just doesn't make sense.

JoeE seems more angry at nations and movements than being worked up at skin color or exactly which mistaken God it is they worship and use to evil ends.

I bet, as they sit in their church or synagogue, the fine Saudi Christians and Saudi Jews can't understand why we talk such trash about Islam, their ever tolerant co-religion in the family of the worshippers of the God of Abraham. Then, they all head down to their own segregated part of Tolerance Park for a potluck and feel a twinge of sadness that their religions preclude them from even using each others' plates or eating the same foods.

The Muslims look over at the Christians, eating their pulled pork; the Jews see the Muslims eating dairy and meat from the same plate, and the Christians look over at the abstinent Muslims and the Jews who check the label on everything to see if something is Kosher...and they all wonder, "Why can't we get along?"

The world will not change until we can all have each other over for dinner without violating someone's precious culinary relationship with God.

Well, AlainR, I began reading your recommended article, but had to quit at the point where the writer chose to point out that the US was not only recognized as the lone super power but as the principal source of "global warming". Our petty human activities may take place on the planet, but only an arrogant, ignorant, egotist would accept the junk science which puts us in a controlling role. No more than the dinosaurs brought on the ice age are our activities going to determine the planet's cyclical changes in the future.

As to the question, "Why do they hate us?", what difference does it make? There are those who do hate us and hope to exterminate us and all that we represent. It behooves us to defend ourselves in the most effective way we can. The most significant error the United States has made in the context of self defense is that of subscribing to the policy of limited war - surgical attacks and the commitment to minimizing so-called civilian casualties.

War is not to be entered into lightly. It should be avoided at nearly all costs. When, however, a nation is driven into war, the goal must be to destroy the enemy - absolutely. Ever since we decided to stop at the 38th parallel, we have conducted wars in the most foolish and expensive way possible. In the end, the only way this country can survive the threats we face today is to employ the most horrible and devastating weapons we possess - raising the stakes for continued conflict to the point that no enemy will be willing to continue the fight. The question is only how long we will wait and how much we will lose before we realize this.

Coincidentally, I have just been reading this article an hour ago and JoeE strikes me as the perfect one-man summary of why America is hated.

Buddha: your sense of humour and humanity are much appreciated.

John: no exception about the "double blind testing" religious group ?

What a bunch of crap. Who cares why someone hates America. I find that people that hate America are racists as well. What? It's not racist if you hate America? It's racist if you hate Muslims? It's not racist if you write something about why people hate America? It's racist if you write something about why people hate Muslims? Get out of town. Racism isn't a one way street just for the fools that lay their head on the Double E only to find out the train don't run down there no more. Poor poor pitiful me.

Disguise it as political dissent, religious intolerance, foreign policy. It's all racist. Even you posting a link to that article as some sort of pathetic proof that JoeE is the root of all evil is promoting a racist view against America. Only this time it is disguised as foreign policy. I think your post is racist and should be deleted as an example of policy with extreme prejudice.

Quote:Well, AlainR, I began reading your recommended article, but had to quit at the point where the writer chose to point out that the US was not only recognized as the lone super power but as the principal source of "global warming". Our petty human activities may take place on the planet, but only an arrogant, ignorant, egotist would accept the junk science which puts us in a controlling role. No more than the dinosaurs brought on the ice age are our activities going to determine the planet's cyclical changes in the future.

As to the question, "Why do they hate us?", what difference does it make? There are those who do hate us and hope to exterminate us and all that we represent. It behooves us to defend ourselves in the most effective way we can. The most significant error the United States has made in the context of self defense is that of subscribing to the policy of limited war - surgical attacks and the commitment to minimizing so-called civilian casualties.

War is not to be entered into lightly. It should be avoided at nearly all costs. When, however, a nation is driven into war, the goal must be to destroy the enemy - absolutely. Ever since we decided to stop at the 38th parallel, we have conducted wars in the most foolish and expensive way possible. In the end, the only way this country can survive the threats we face today is to employ the most horrible and devastating weapons we possess - raising the stakes for continued conflict to the point that no enemy will be willing to continue the fight. The question is only how long we will wait and how much we will lose before we realize this.

Sorry guys, I can't be bothered to actually get into arguments with ignorant, self-righteous, militaristic nuts. Just keep your eyes closed and hope that the millions of Bin Laden wanabees you have created won't ever get at you. Good luck with that!

Quote:Sorry guys, I can't be bothered to actually get into arguments with ignorant, self-righteous, militaristic nuts. Just keep your eyes closed and hope that the millions of Bin Laden wanabees you have created won't ever get at you. Good luck with that!

Interesting......Cheapskate was disagreeing with the writer of the article you linked to. You then proceed to call him (and I) "ignorant, self-righteous, militaristic nuts."

You don't even know me. By calling me these names you're displaying your ignorance and self-righteousness.

BTW, there were already millions of terrorists prior to 9/11. Study your history. These folks want nothing more than to kill every man, woman and child that don't believe in the things they do....period. To deny this is to deny reality.

War SUCKS. Some things, however, are worth fighting for. If not, this country would be pledging their allegiance to a little guy with a funny looking moustache and wearing a swastika.

How about this, Loner. Since I had some time to waste, I reviewed all of Mr. AlainR's posts to this forum. They're all political snipes - no attention to music or to sound equipment. Why he chooses to post on this forum I don't know, and how his focus on political issues squares with his unwillingness to, "...get into arguments with ignorant, self-righteous, militaristic nuts." is another eyebrow raiser. Perhaps he's just testy because his feline beauty no longer is willing to sit on his lap and engage in heavy petting. (see one of his earlier posts for that reference).

No, Alain -- people do not hate us because we want to nuke everyone (I believe that is your gloss on Joe -- who really said, in an overly aggressive manner, that when push comes to shove, we should anwer in kind). People resent us for our successes, our follies, our generosity, our arrogance, our spending habits (which seem to keep eveyone else afloat, when international caution invites deflation and depression), our gluttony, and our refusal to cede all we have fought for, internationally, to those who want to grab a little power for free. The reason none of this is an issue in Belgium, Alain, is because nobody cares.

Hoffman's piece is just so much more ineffectual ink spilled by another ineffectual intellectual pundit. Gradual withdrawal? Why gradual? Would a gradual withdrawal somehow keep the enemy in the dark about our new intentions? Snicker. That's a good one. Unfortunately, there is no "undo" button once you commit to actions with international consequences. You live with what you started. Hindsight tells us the Bush regime used faulty intelligence as a rationale for trying to control our interests in the Middle East. Hindsight has not yet told us we shouldn't have deposed Saddam, nor attempted to democratize Iraq. I hate doing the right thing or the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, and, God knows, we do plenty of both. But glib criticism from a nobody from a country with no say in international power struggles? Pish. Go piss up a rope.

Quote:Sorry guys, I can't be bothered to actually get into arguments with ignorant, self-righteous, militaristic nuts. Just keep your eyes closed and hope that the millions of Bin Laden wanabees you have created won't ever get at you. Good luck with that!

That is an ignorant stereotype racist comment that should be deleted with extreme prejudice. Especially, since the poster has run off with her tail between her legs. In fact, I suggest before, and if, the post gets deleted that AlainR should print it out and hold it between her knees.

"...I'm too fast. I'm too smart. I'm too pretty. I should be a postage stamp. All the pretty girls want to lick me."

As for the rest of America, there's dues to be paid for past behavior.

You can't spend a hundred years replacing rulers, forcing mono-crop economies on people, and using economic might to fight for Mickey D's right to infilitrate other societies and then act surprised if a few people don't love you.

I'm not trying to be one of those self-loathing liberal chest beaters, I'm just saying that a lack of universal love comes with the territory we staked out.

We've also been a little too transparently inconsistent these last few...years.

I'm amazed we take umbrage with Saddam and insist on installing a "proper democracy," yet we ignore Castro at our very doorstep. A country ripe for reform.

We also don't seem to mind theocratic dictatorship and religious oppression in Saudi Arabia, but we condemn it in Iran.

We're OK with a military dictatorship in Pakistan, but against it North Korea.

Even this red state vs. blue state stuff is a diversion. The real philosophical bottom line for us is whether or not something makes us more "green." All this stuff about wanting democratic values to take root in Iraq and elsewhere is total bullshit. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Examples:

If you try and follow a "political philosophy trail" with regard to making sense of our nation, you'll get lost quickly. That ain't us.

But, if you follow the "money trail," we are suddenly much more "scrutable."

It's no coincidence that it's only on our money where we put things like "E Pluribus Unum" and "In God We Trust" - cash money is the only place most Americans actually look for spiritual comfort or social validation. We're just not honest enough to be straight up about it.

I like America, I feel kind of patriotic and all, but very often I feel like I'm watching that idiot in-law we all have who blunders around being an asshole and then can't figure out why people don't universally love him, then blames everybody but himself.

Pardon my cynicism.

Please feel free to continue to make the world a better place by day trading.

The country? Hell, I'm tryin' to make me a better place. It's about ME, ME, ME, ME! The locals are after me. The specialists are after me. The hedge funds are after me. Hell, the revenooers are after me! How can I afford Sin City, if I don't hit the big one?

With native American, Welsh and Afro-American in my ancestry It would be rather difficult for me to be a racist. What I am is a very proud and thankful American. Like at least one other on this thread I am also a military brat. I spent most of my years prior to high school overseas. The majority in Europe with a year here and there in Tripoli and Turkey. I got the opportunity to view SE Asia up close and personal on my own while serving as a medic in the USAF at Cam Ranh Bay. This was while my family was in Okinawa. Seeing a lot of the world at its worst and best, I know what I want in terms of a homeland. Despite all the worts America is my land. I voluntarily laid my life on the line because this country is worth (to me) fighting for. I had no intention of coming of as a racist. I don't care what color or heritage people are. I care about America and Americans. If you are not an American