Somebody Else's Problem wrote:So basically we're irredeemably right wing? I can't accept that. I can't live in a country like that.

I think it's far more plausible that people today will vote for the right wing candidate and right wing party Rupert Murdoch thinks is best (overall) at any one time, without realising just how much the right wing will strawberry float them over all the time.

The above post, unless specifically stated to the contrary, should not be taken seriously. If the above post has offended you in any way, please fill in this form and return it to your nearest moderator.

Fatal Exception wrote:Because your party won't be successful if you aren't an awful banana split who wants the poor to die?

At the moment? Yes.

It's interesting, because whereas historically there has always been a large working-class left-wing vote, it seems that contemporary politics has already moved towards having the demographic structure of the United States: the dirt-poor and ultra-rich have united in having extremely right-wing 'Republican'-esque views, whereas the middle-class can be more amenable to 'Democrat' style centrism. This set-up doesn't really leave a niche for left-wing thought at all.

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back to that centrism in 10 years once Labour have completed the long process of sorting themselves out and some charismatic young centrist MP is experienced enough to be the new Blair. But I'm concerned about what the country will look like by then, and a little scared too -- I can't help but feel that I'm the kind of 'undesirable' that, deep in her blackened frozen heart, Theresa May would love to make disappear.

I was being tongue-in-cheek there, but not by much; Tories are clearly not interested in treating poor young people like me at all kindly and that's a bit frightening.

To be honest, I think the current situation is quite mechanical. Labour lost out massively to SNP in Scotland and may never recover those seats. Without that heartland, they have many less available viable seats than the Tories by quite a stretch, and its not reasonable to expect them to win them back. I don't think England has become more Conservative, the biggest chunk of damage has been done in Scotland. Take that out of the equation and you'd probably have a very standard situation.

Its fair to say Labour is unelectable right now, but that doesn't mean the Tories have done some grand job. If a party had chislled out all the seats on a movement in a different part of the country instead, it could have been the Tories out of power for decades. I'd say very little of that is actually to do with Corbyn, and almost entirely to do with the existance of the SNP. Scottish independance would be of massive importance to the Labour party moving forward.

DML wrote:To be honest, I think the current situation is quite mechanical. Labour lost out massively to SNP in Scotland and may never recover those seats. Without that heartland, they have many less available viable seats than the Tories by quite a stretch, and its not reasonable to expect them to win them back. I don't think England has become more Conservative, the biggest chunk of damage has been done in Scotland. Take that out of the equation and you'd probably have a very standard situation.

Its fair to say Labour is unelectable right now, but that doesn't mean the Tories have done some grand job. If a party had chislled out all the seats on a movement in a different part of the country instead, it could have been the Tories out of power for decades. I'd say very little of that is actually to do with Corbyn, and almost entirely to do with the existance of the SNP. Scottish independance would be of massive importance to the Labour party moving forward.

It's a minor point, but some of the best Labour politicians have been Scottish or Welsh - now they all go straight to Holyrood/Cardiff instead of Westminster - which is fair as that is the place which has the best powers to improve people's lives. All we're left with at Westminster is the English and/or the power hungry.

DML wrote:To be honest, I think the current situation is quite mechanical. Labour lost out massively to SNP in Scotland and may never recover those seats. Without that heartland, they have many less available viable seats than the Tories by quite a stretch, and its not reasonable to expect them to win them back. I don't think England has become more Conservative, the biggest chunk of damage has been done in Scotland. Take that out of the equation and you'd probably have a very standard situation.

Its fair to say Labour is unelectable right now, but that doesn't mean the Tories have done some grand job. If a party had chislled out all the seats on a movement in a different part of the country instead, it could have been the Tories out of power for decades. I'd say very little of that is actually to do with Corbyn, and almost entirely to do with the existance of the SNP. Scottish independance would be of massive importance to the Labour party moving forward.

It's a minor point, but some of the best Labour politicians have been Scottish or Welsh - now they all go straight to Holyrood/Cardiff instead of Westminster - which is fair as that is the place which has the best powers to improve people's lives. All we're left with at Westminster is the English and/or the power hungry.

The best Scottish Labour politicians will still move south to Westminster. Holyrood's traditionally been a bit of a graveyard for talented Labour politicians, hence the 'big beasts' staying in London and Edinburgh being lumped with the B team; the likes of Jim Murphy et al.

Rocsteady wrote:The best Scottish Labour politicians will still move south to Westminster.

All 1 of them?

Hah, yeah, I think if you're talented, Scottish and Labour you'd currently be better placed being an advisor in a prominent role in Westminster than trying to salvage the Holyrood gooseberry fool show. Or just take an English seat despite being Scottish, as 33 have already done.

Rocsteady wrote:The best Scottish Labour politicians will still move south to Westminster.

All 1 of them?

I presume there are others that I don't hear about down here in Laaandaaan.

I might be completely wrong but I always had the impression that the Labour ministers (inc. junior posts) over represented Scotland and Wales but they've lost that pool to devolution (fewer MPs in Wales & Scotland) and the SNP mauling.

Rocsteady wrote:The best Scottish Labour politicians will still move south to Westminster.

All 1 of them?

I presume there are others that I don't hear about down here in Laaandaaan.

I might be completely wrong but I always had the impression that the Labour ministers (inc. junior posts) over represented Scotland and Wales but they've lost that pool to devolution (fewer MPs in Wales & Scotland) and the SNP mauling.

Rocsteady wrote:Really hoping support for independence picks back up in the near future. Let's take the (probably large) economic hit and get on with trying to build a more equal social democracy.

Although how large that hit will be is also dependent on just how far the UK's finances as a whole plummet as a result of A50 being enacted.

It could potentially be an even more difficult sell next time. It would be an even bigger risk to break from the UK, and go it completely alone. EU membership for Scotland isn't even on the table for discussion at the moment and I don't see them gaining membership for a decade at the very, very least if at all.

Rocsteady wrote:Really hoping support for independence picks back up in the near future. Let's take the (probably large) economic hit and get on with trying to build a more equal social democracy.

Although how large that hit will be is also dependent on just how far the UK's finances as a whole plummet as a result of A50 being enacted.

It could potentially be an even more difficult sell next time. It would be an even bigger risk to break from the UK, and go it completely alone. EU membership for Scotland isn't even on the table for discussion at the moment and I don't see them gaining membership for a decade at the very, very least if at all.

If Scotland does have another referendum, it will be interesting to see the arguments used against it by pro-brexit people. A risk to the economy? Greater sovereignty?

More borrowing, more international aid spending and main Foreign policy will be Nuclear Disarmament [multi-lateral].

Jesus...

I just cannot understand why he focusses so much on preaching to the choir. We all know he's for nuclear disarmament, why not cover some foreign policy that might appeal slightly more to voters who aren't already fully on board? Makes absolutely no sense.

More borrowing, more international aid spending and main Foreign policy will be Nuclear Disarmament [multi-lateral].

Jesus...

I just cannot understand why he focusses so much on preaching to the choir. We all know he's for nuclear disarmament, why not cover some foreign policy that might appeal slightly more to voters who aren't already fully on board? Makes absolutely no sense.

Your mistake there is thinking that Corbyn has any other foreign policies.Except opening trade negotiations with Hamas and Hezbollah I suppose.