I really thought you guys would pull this off. To rip off one of the anouncers in the UGA-COcks game, it looks like Michigan let App State beat you twice.

I didn;t watch much of the MI game- so I don't the whole story, but I did see your studs were out due to injuries(?).

Lou Holtz when coaching of the Cocks stated something to the effect, "South Carolina must have the record of the most fans per win in the history of the sport." Seeing the Big House packed with losse makes me wonder if we lost the monkey.

well, at least we still have the big ten season and no spread offenses. I'm having flashbacks of Ricky Foggy running across the field and taking the little brown jug. so many beers, so much time until we play ND... Mallett vs. Clausen... #1 recruit vs. #2, sad that our season is reduced to so little so soon. I was so hopeful. Despair.

With as much dignity as he could muster, the Old Man gathered up the sad remains of his shattered football program. Later that night, alone in the backyard, he buried it next to the garage. Now I could never be sure, but I thought that I heard the sound of "Taps" being played. Gently.

The thing that sucked the most was just the way the team gave up... In the past, we've seen Michigan beat Penn State on the last play of the game, or overcome that ridiculous deficit in Minnesota. Not this team, when the going got a little tough, they just quit and mailed it in.

Well. Carr will be gone at the end of the season and Michigan will start a multi-year re-building process to:

1. Recruit speed2. Begin to employ things like the spread at the U of M.

At least Michigan won't have long term recruiting problems. We'll be back.

This season has been a long time coming. The lack of speed on defense will probably kill us all season (especially without an effective rush). We knew the defense was a question mark, but it is truly bad.

No explanation for the anemic offense.

Too bad for the seniors. Hopefully they'll make it through the season without serious injuries.

" curt, i watched the whole game - i'm in pasadena, but just went down to a bar and slowly got sicker and sicker as it dawned on me that michigan would probably lose that game. that was in the 2nd quarter.

they are slow.

they will lose to oregon.

if you gamble, take the oregon and the points for easy money.

their defense has been slow for a while now - you don't need to wait until watching them next week to realize that.

and sadly, they've done nothing to remedy the situation. they continue to recruit big, strong, slow guys - like it's still 1977.

it is coaching. and that same decision making when it comes to recruiting will not save us when drawing up defensive schemes to stop quicker, more athletic teams like Oregon.

I'm not so sure GOW that a certain lineman would have been a decent NFL player. Long looked slow and lost against ASU. Long only looked marginally better today. Long may have been a potential top 10 pick last year but after two games, I'd say his stock is sliding.

WBuck-not sure about that one. that required courage and dignity. we're short on both right now. if we had courage, someone in the admin would hold Carr accountable now, regardless of the possible side effects (which we're not avoiding anyway). we don't have the nerve to fire coordinators, let alone the head coach.

dignity would demand that Lloyd be humiliated enough to actually act ashamed, instead of blaming injuries, or refs, or poor execution. Lloyd can't do that. if he did, he'd have the dignity to fall on his own sword.

if Lloyd had a shred left, he would announce his retirement was coming at the end of the season.

no. not masada. we're more like-

answer- "the little big horn"

question- "what is the name of the battlefield where arrogance and swaggering self confidence to the point of denial end up getting your ass in a crack that you're not getting out of following the same leader you followed here?"

Michigan defense sucks! Has for some time. Carr is John Cooper of Michigan. Carr needs to stop whining and fire his defense coach and win the big games before UM fire him (which wouldn't hurt). Looks like another OSU victory this year.

There should be no more discussion regarding Carr out of Michigan fans. Everyone knows he's gone. To blame anything more on him is unjust. You're team is about the 4th or 5th best in the Big Ten and falling. It's only going to get worse . . . enjoy the next decade of anonymity.

I've never been crazy about Weiss, but if any coach could draw up a special offensive gameplan for next week it would probably be him. Whether or not his players would respond or not is up for grabs, but how hard could it be to beat this Michigan defense right now. All it would really take is pretending to run a spread offense and our tacklers will do the rest.

How did we get so...bad? The linemen can't keep up with the QB, everyone is missing tackles. It's insane. And the offense...the fucking offense. What the hell happened?

There are some spots of hope. The arm on Ryan Mallett is beautiful. He is unpolished but he can throw! And if everyone would have made the tackles they should have, then that would significantly cut down on the rush yardage, but they still lack speed.

Here's the problem: the coaches are back to their old tricks of not putting enough trust in their QB. Henne was good last year because he was allowed to throw as he wished. It's like they only trust him with screen passes again. We're fucked.

Following is the message I sent to the University president after the App. St. loss. The only thing I added this week is that I will boycott attending or watching every Michigan game until Lloyd Carr is fired and I encourage everyone to do the same. Change requires dedication and commitment. I am a Michigan grad currently living in Washington DC. I proudly don the Michigan colors and decorate my car and house with Michigan paraphernalia. After today, I feel like I should take it all down. This was the most disgraceful loss in NCAA history and I am actually ashamed to be associated with the school I love. Anything short of the immediate firing of "Coach" Lloyd Carr is unacceptable and will not be tolerated by the somehow still loyal fan base of this school. This is just the culmination in a long line of heart wrenching disappointments at the hands of this team due to his lack of leadership and football understanding. I hope you take this letter as seriously as I am because I don't think I can take any more heartache. I'm sure their are other letters you have received that echo my sentiments. Sincerely, Michael Huffstetler

Michigan, what happen my Big Ten brethren (from a Hawkeye fan)?? It sucks when our crown jewel is Wisconsin. Look at it this way, you guys have a whole year to find a replacement coach. You guys recruit nothing but talent. Get a competent sonofabitch at the helm, you'll be back!

A head coach has four primary responsibilities when preparing for and playing an opponent: 1) accurately evaluate your opponent's strengths and weaknesses, 2) develop a game plan to neutralize your opponent's strengths and exploit his weaknesses based upon your knowledge of your own players, 3) mentally and physically prepare your players for the challenge and 4) make game-time adjustments to your plan in response to the changing conditions during the game which take advantage of unexpected opportunities or make corrections for your own mistakes and weaknesses. The rest is up to the talent and execution of the players. Without the raw talent, of course, even the best game plan will fail. But Michigan HAS the talent.

In Saturday's game, which I watched in its painful entirety, I saw virtually NO evidence that Lloyd Carr is capable of carrying out ANY of his responsibilities as head coach. Michigan's defense looked as if it had never seen the type of offense Oregon threw at them, even though it had many similarities to App State of a week earlier. Michigan's offense looked timid and uncertain with too many quick-out passes which went no where. It was obvious that Oregon had done its homework and knew what to expect, and Michigan had NO surprises for them which they couldn't handle.

There was plenty of evidence that Michigan was NOT mentally or physically prepared for this game. Michigan's abundant penalties, turnovers, and injuries all reveal the lack of preparation.

Worst of all was the failure to make meaningful game-time adjustments. The defensive secondary made little attempt to step up and slow down Oregon's speedier receivers at the line, and not surprisingly got blown by all afternoon. The defense just let them run their routes unimpeded and trotted along behind. Michigan's offense seemed to spend most of the game in Oregon's territory, and yet hardly threw to the end zone at all, continuing to grind out the short passes and Mike Hart runs. Hart is outstanding, but he can't carry the team alone. I found it particularly telling that as the tide turned against Michigan early, it was Hart who tried to fire up the players and turn things around, RATHER THAN THE COACHING STAFF. Since the coach wasn't going to win the game, Hart must have realized that it was up to HIM to step up and provide the leadership on the sidelines as well as on the field.

I have watched Michigan football for decades, and have come to expect regular doses of the tough loss, particularly in bowl games. The knowledge that on any given Saturday at least half of the Big Ten could beat your team makes it more exciting. The days of the "Big Two and the Little Eight" are over, probably forever. There is certainly more balance in the league than in the glory days of Bo and Woody. But the Big Ten itself is also fading as a major power, and has been for several years. The Pac Ten and the ACC have both eclipsed the Big Ten and there are signs that the future will continue be troubled, if not worse.

The most frustrating thing for us lifelong die-hard Big Ten fans is that it does not have to be this way. Lloyd Carr has taken a team with an abundance of individual talent and almost unlimited potential, and completely FAILED to forge it into the powerhouse team it could have been. And Carr's record in the "big" games is extremely weak. He has won regular season games consistently ONLY because he has had such an amazing pool of talent to rely upon. But that talent is going to head for the coasts in a hurry unless something is done to turn things around at Michigan.

Getting rid of the coaching staff will not miraculously turn a mediocre team into a great one. But refusing to recognize the need to make changes WILL consistently turn players with great skills into mediocre teams.

Dear Wolverine fans, players and alumni,Hey, look on the bright side, there is always time to beat, uh, be a part of the 3rd best converence in the country. You guys suck this year and I am so glad to see that, while you can make fun of an old guy that could still coach till he died (Bear), you can't play like a team while your coach is struggling to save himself from the rabid media. Bama never had a Heisman winner, but we sure as hell fought our ass off every single play. Maybe that's why you guys have more regular season wins (and more years playing the game) yet we have more bowl wins. It shows a lot about a team that loses to an inferior opponent (up for debate still) and comes back the following week against a team that traveled a long way to play and can't control the line of scrimmage. You MI folks are some lazy, weak-hearted pussies to lay down so quickly for a beat down while playing at home after such a lucky comeback last week that never materialized (Thank God). It is a blessing to see both you guys and Notre Dame suck so badly and now you have to line up to play a meaningless game featuring the most overrated teams in the history of the sport. Congrats on stinking so badly that every paper in the WORLD carried something about your historic meltdown on national TV against lowly APPALACHIAN STATE. May you have to answer questions about that pathetic performance for the rest of your lives. I hope that you never ever forget the nauseating feeling that being the FIRST TOP 10 TEAM TO EVER LOSE TO A DIV. 1-AA TEAM brings each and every night before you go to bed. At least you can look at some of the ugliest girls in the country every day on campus so you can get a nauseating feeling from something else besides your MAIZE (fairly gay name for yellow) helmets. I hope we meet in the future for a game just so that I can rub these opening loses in some more. Good luck next week against Notre Dame as I hate them only slightly more than I hate your team of quitters.

Sorry, fans, players, and alumni,I forgot to mention the coaching in my last post. It was as ineffective of a lob coaching and preparing a team as I have seen in recent memory. Down here we nip that shit in the bud during the 2nd quarter or at least at halftime. Our players are smart enough also, to recognize a crappy coach when we see one and that is why we have gone through so many before Saban. Of course, bad coaching and ineffective leadership is no reason to quit like most of you defensive and offensive lineman did during the Oregon game. Tom Brady must be offended to be associated with such a sad group of players and coaches. I don't remember that guy ever quitting on his team or coaches. You see, even if your leadership sucks, you can still execute your gameplan with heart and desire alongside your "family" of teammates. Oregon looked like a better coached team and also played with more heart and class (cheap kick to the groin). I hope Lloyd Carr sends a message to that guy and suspends him for a game or two for that thuggish behavior that would NEVER fly at BAMA. Good luck again against lowly Notre DUMB next week and if you guys don't send those talentless losers a message you don't deserve a spot in the 4th best team of the country (SEC, PAC-10, Big East, Big 10).

Hey guys, I am a tOSU grad and fan, but unlike many of my fellow fans, I have the utmost respect for Michigan, the rivalry and guys like Mike Hart. It is really painful what is going on right now, especially for the seniors who came back for one more run. I really hope that Michigan turns things around so that the game at the end of November continues to be the even that it always has been. And oh, the Buckeyes' offense was frightening yesterday. I am officially scared for the trip to Seattle next week.

I'd first like to say this: i apologize to all the Indiana fans out there -- I now know what if feels like to suck.

Secondly, Observations from the game:* Key Play flashed on the score board with key logos* Shawn Crable is now my least favorite Michigan player of all time. A senior, a captain -- WTF! I've never seen such uninspired, unenergetic, unpassionate play out of anyone.* Henne Injury. I don't know the whole story, but it seems he played another series after the injury as Mallett warmed up. Was he THAT hurt that he couldn't come back out on the field to support his team?* Arrington and Hart were limping almost most of the game.* Was sitting right next to the tunnel where the team comes out -- I knew we had lost when they were walking out of the tunnel. That fire I was hoping that was burning under their balls was not there. they looked scared, tight, and not like Michigan Men as they walk through that tunnel.* Manningham stop playing in the 3rd quarter -- sure he ran his routes, but gave no effort.* Carlos Brown - I'm sure he's a stud back, but he still has some sort of cast on his right hand... why have him run and risk a fumble?* Henne pick -- WTF Mate? What bad decisions he's been making. He also had Manningham wide open for TD's a couple times. Either didn't go to his direction or awful throw over wrong shoulder or just completely off target.* Mallett should have been picked off 5 times. If it wasn't him staring down his target from the snap or just being off target -- the Quacks dropped 5 picks.

There must be a curse to explain this entire sorry situation. Theories:

1) Lloyd, when born, was bound by his ankles and left for dead. He survived, inadvertantly marrried and slept with his mother, and brought down a curse from the football gods that will only be lifted up his departure.

2) the entire defense slept with Tider's mother, contracted "the Clap" and can't run without extreme discomfort.

Tider, I know you'll never get the first reference; please explore the second and get back with me.

you must be even dumber than you sound if you think that "whetstone BUCK's" favorite team is "maize and blue". Alabama fans have to reason to gloat at UM's misery, you're not very far removed from that pile of shit that you were in the last 10 years.

And to all of you UM fans that say that OSU fans are the worst, i'm sure these Bammer fans are giving us the run for our $$$.

UM will be great again (as much as it pains a Buckeye fan like me to say it). No way Bama will ever be as good as they were under the Bear.

Uh, Tider...how about some internal consistency with your comments??You criticize that being the self-centerd fucks we are, 'all' we talk about is Michigan, not giving other teams credit and kudos; yet then you call for "team pride" and throw as an example your complete misunderstanding of my tongue-in-cheek humility-inspired "we've only got the tailgates to look forward to" comment I made earlier?

Look, put your damned Uzi away, walk away from the side of the barn that you continue to pepper with random, inconsistent comments. This is a Michigan blog. If you want to puff yourself up about the wonders of 'Bama football that's fine. Just spare me your 'karmic justice' crap...because sweety, your karmic meter is getting ready to blow.

Andy, God bless you. You've made my morning. Except for the fact that during the '07 season, we, the collective Michigan Nation, are Ned Beatty lost in a camping adventure that still has about 9 more weeks....

When my friend T9 (with her three M degrees and one of the biggest brains I know in the world) starts jawing with a in-bred, mouth-breathing, bear bryant worshiping, tide fan about the unpredictable nature of karma and 20 year old kids playing football... nothing but pure comedy genius.

lol ... toonces, great ancient greek reference there. Of course you would have had to graduate high school or taken a humanities course in college to identifiy that. Apparently our tide buddy missed that. Honestly, I could care less about Alabama, you are relatively meaningless in the landscape of college football and your coach is the larry brown of football. Don't think for one minute if Saban were offered the Michigan job, he wouldn't take it. Hell, he would be gone before sundown. As far as the "owe it to Mike Hart to show up", I am not so sure.

Ah, Andy, you know that I loves me some football and can get easily looped.

Back to football: while watching the Penn State/Domer game and hearing the very low stats for each offense in the first half, I got to thinking....I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the average of the offensive stats amongst and between the Big Ten, SEC, ACC, and Pac 10. My bet, now that the Kool-Aide has worn off, is that the Big Ten is waaaay back in the numbers and that we are the last of the run-run-run divisions.

Despite my 3 degrees (thanks for the props Andy) I must admit that I am surprisingly 'math challenged', plus, I wouldn't know how to get the data. ESPN College Almanac??Some help maybe from the group?

Thanks for two things: 1) Great analysis and insights and 2) a needed reminder that despite our current woes, it truly IS great to be a wolverine. Its easy to get discouraged and dwell upon the negative, as I did earlier, but the legacy and tradition of Michigan will endure. I do believe this, and your post helped to bring me out of my funk.

To whetstonebuck-

Thanks for "How's the tooth?" I laughed until I cried. Sometimes irritating insects can be ignored and they will go away, but sometimes you just have to swat them. Nice swat.

p.s. Here's hoping the Buckeyes run the table, until, of course, Michigan stops them on November 17th. (Hope springs eternal.) Hopefully by then we will have gotten our act together.

Having to deal with assholes like Tider on a daily basis,I actually believe in his physics background. Only in the Alabama nation would you find a physics graduate/student/etc. preparing multiple junior high level postings out of anger over year old satire on the blog of a program 600 miles away. On the other hand, most of the good Bama fans I know are graduates. It is typically the trailer park crowd that rants like this jerk. Maybe he sweeps the floor of the physics building in Tuscaloosa.

First, thank you Chris. My parents went to OSU and even though the rivalry is heated, I still root for fellow Big Ten in OOC games. My dad is a Buckeye but he is not happy to see this happen either.

So to Tider, we did not deserve this. Everyone keeps saying that the Michigan fanbase is so arrogant that we had this coming. I beg to differ.

Even if we are arrogant, we always treated our opponents and our fans with respect (maybe except for Notre Dame in 2003, but it wasn't all that bad). Michigan has always run a clean and classy program. And you know what? I'm not too happy about Greg Matthews either. He looked like Marcus Vick out there and I felt like emailing the AD and telling him that as an alumnus I wanted him out. (Then I remembered that our AD is a DB - douche bag.) And once thing that all Big Ten teams avoid almost all the time is running up the score. (Just to put this in perspective, I was watching Miami-Oklahoma yesterday. OU was winning 44-13 with 3 min remaining and decided to throw a 30+ yard pass for a TD. WTF?)

There is bad blood between the SEC and Big Ten. We have rival football playing styles and we are sick of hearing each other's conference called the toughest. But if there is anything that we should all agree on--whether you are a fan of MSU, OSU, or the SEC--Michigan did not deserve this. So yeah, the players should stop giving up and act more like Mike Hart, but what Tider said is uncompletely uncalled for.

I'd love to give all of you a pep talk, because I don't like the practice of rubbing salt on wounds that aren't my own (Tider1701 - Coach Bryant would NOT be proud of the way you are behaving here; have some dignity).

But after watching most of yesterday's game I'm afraid there isn't much in the way of pep talk material. Michigan's football problems are systemic (lack of speed and modern football schemes) and won't be remedied soon. And, like Notre Dame, it will take several years to right the ship.

I've been visiting the MZone for more than a year now, and in that time I've seen a lot of hostility for AD Bill Martin. With the foregone conclusion that this season will be Carr's last, does it make sense to have Martin making potentially the most important hire in Michigan football history?

I looked over the charts and was surprised to find that the Big 10 actually leads the major conferences in average yards per game, average number of plays from scrimmage, AND rushing attempts as a percentage of total plays. In other words, on the average, other conferences use the pass more than the Big 10, but the Big 10 schools total more yardage overall.

You are correct that we do run more, but only slightly more than the SEC. The stat I found even more interesting was that ACC offenses run up significantly LESS yardage than most everybody else, which is the opposite of what I expected.

This has got to be the best Michigan website I have ever seen. I appreciate your honesty and sense of humor... although naturally some of the Buckeye bashes are stereotypical of only a small percentage of Buckeye fans. We have our fair share of drunken idiots... good Lord, we live in Ohio. What the hell is there to do in OHIO? But we aren't all bottle throwing-car tipping-swearing at children heathens. And if I were to stereotype the entire Michigan nation by the behavior of a few of their fans, I could come up with some great slams too. BUT I digress... that has nothing to do with what I really wanted to say, which is that I really like your site (am a bit jealous of it, actually... we Buckeyes don't have anything that I am aware of that compares in quality!) AND I really do feel for you guys. I'm not one to kick someone when they are down, especially knowing how klutzy I am! (And how fickle the world of college football is...)

Michigan will be back. A victory over the Buckeyes salvages a lot, as would victories over Penn State and MSU... if for nothing more then being able to deflect the criticism from their fans! Too bad you guys don't get to play Bama. The only Bama fan I know is an alumni and she is the biggest fan I know- literally. The woman is like 400 pounds. Maybe she and Tider should hook up.

ANYHOW, this too shall pass. Keeps your heads up... although I do despise those winged helmets... and kick some Notre Dame ass this week. It shouldn't be hard.

Geez, the Ducks have been waiting for this game for four freakin' years and UM doesn't even show up? I'll take the win, but it comes with a heaping, HEAPING spoon of disappointment. I can't even tell if we were tested. For all I know, we're going to get rolled by Fresno State next weekend...

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