Marcos and NSG are not really specialists in counter terror. Rather they are ment for behind enemy lines, sabotage and recon. Their equipemnt is not for urban warfare and hostage crisis.

sorry, can't resist.

From Wikipedia I realise that NSG's main role is to fight terrorism

From the same article I read that they are supposed to be modelled after the SAS of Britain. From the transcripts and facts, it is clear that there is a great difference in organisation and training. (I have trained against SAS, and they are very direct, almost like programmed. They would go in and just blast the place. If there are hostages, too bad. They would save what ever they could, but the opperation would be over within minutes.)

Imagine 10 TSP pigs managed to create havoc in the financial captal for over 61 hours. That is the limit for absoulte fatigue. The terrorists could not have managed to stay wake any longer. Read the transcripts of the opperation and you will realise how ill prepared and disorganised the whole opperation was. Look at the equipment they had available. Look at the coordintion. Not to mention how the soldiers were lost.

Hence my initial conclusion that the forces were not trained for this. I fear that the "sucess" of this opperation will encorage them to try the stunt once more at the same place(just to humiliate India).

if similar forces were to do covert ops encircling terror camps, these things will be against them,

1) time, may be 30 mins before the escape routes close2) number of turds they will be facing, could be in 100s3) their own numbers4) if the mission was to capture a pig for later squealing, that's equivalent to a hostage situation5) element of surprise is with us, not sure now after days have passed and vacation declared for these turds.

rishirishi wrote:From Wikipedia I realise that NSG's main role is to fight terrorism

From the same article I read that they are supposed to be modelled after the SAS of Britain. From the transcripts and facts, it is clear that there is a great difference in organisation and training. (I have trained against SAS, and they are very direct, almost like programmed. They would go in and just blast the place. If there are hostages, too bad. They would save what ever they could, but the opperation would be over within minutes.)

if sas or nsg go in and blast the place, then what of hostages? what kind of hostage rescue team can afford to do this? NSG in mumbai (with firefighters, mumbai police and MARCOS) has saved some 400-500 civilians.for more on NSG do not read wikipedia but following articles for training and mandatehttp://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... s/NSG.html

i would love to see how SAS would have handled entire op in minutesrishirishi you basically made a mess again with this statement since unfortunately for you a SAS officer is speaking about how "small" the ops would be and he writes the following:

Britain unprepared for Mumbai-style attack, former head of SAS saysBritain is unprepared for a Mumbai (Bombay)-style terror attack and hundreds of civilians would die if the country was targeted in such a way, the former head of the SAS has revealed.

i guess that means SAS would handle op in 32 seconds compared to earlier 1.5 seconds

Imagine 10 TSP pigs managed to create havoc in the financial captal for over 61 hours. That is the limit for absoulte fatigue. The terrorists could not have managed to stay wake any longer. Read the transcripts of the opperation and you will realise how ill prepared and disorganised the whole opperation was. Look at the equipment they had available. Look at the coordintion. Not to mention how the soldiers were lost.

what are you going on about. terrorists were drugged on speed and they had enough food and water in hotel to sustain themselves apart from dried fruitsyou did not even know what the NSG was and now you claim you have transcripts to see how "ill planned entire op" was.10 TSP "pigs" hitting multiple locations and NSG rescued the hostage/guests and gunned everyone of them down, apart from 2.and you are still going on and on

in comparison a professional, eg SAS former head says:

The former SAS commander, a lieutenant colonel who was involved in providing support to the Metropolitan police following both the 7/7 and 21/7 London tube attacks, said that the UK does not have enough of the right type of counter-terrorist forces in London or other major cities to deal with a multi-site, and mobile terrorist incident such as we seen in Mumbai.The officer, who won the Military Cross fighting al-Qaeda units in Afghanistan in 2001, and spent most of the last three years in Iraq fighting against the same enemy said: "The doomsday scenario that we always presented in planning was multiple and mobile incidents in London by suicidal armed terrorists because very quickly they could achieve a lot of fatalities before anyone could pinpoint the threats and react effectively."This would produce the type of chaos that would defy even the most sophisticated command and control systems. You would turn London into a temporary war zone very quickly."...................

He added: "It was always the doomsday scenario which Peter Clarke and I both recognised as the most challenging. In the early stages of such an attack there would a lot of death and chaos. Our unarmed police would be able to do very little except report in. There would be many hours of chaos before the police, backed by the military counter-terrorist response teams were in a position to contain, let alone neutralise, the terrorist threats."The former officer added that British armed response teams are not as numerous, well trained or equipped as they should be to deal with a fast moving and violent a scenario as that which occurred in Mumbai.

.. same as in Indiaand indian security forces did respond, successfully

Hence my initial conclusion that the forces were not trained for this. I fear that the "sucess" of this opperation will encorage them to try the stunt once more at the same place(just to humiliate India).

you do not even know what NSG is. you dont even know what MARCOS is. i am sure you dont even know timeline of the entire scenario who first respondents were and when NSG came in, but you are talking and talkingwith posts like yours the head hurts

we in india are aware of what NSG did and how they managed the op and the lashkar knows their gambit of killing 5000 people flopped thanks to NSGTaj was not destroyed like mariott was nor were all guests killed like lashkar plannedyes india was hurt but the soldiers kept the nations belief

rishirishi wrote:From Wikipedia I realise that NSG's main role is to fight terrorism

From the same article I read that they are supposed to be modelled after the SAS of Britain. From the transcripts and facts, it is clear that there is a great difference in organisation and training. (I have trained against SAS, and they are very direct, almost like programmed. They would go in and just blast the place. If there are hostages, too bad. They would save what ever they could, but the opperation would be over within minutes.)

if sas or nsg go in and blast the place, then what of hostages? what kind of hostage rescue team can afford to do this? NSG in mumbai (with firefighters, mumbai police and MARCOS) has saved some 400-500 civilians.for more on NSG do not read wikipedia but following articles for training and mandatehttp://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... s/NSG.html

i would love to see how SAS would have handled entire op in minutesrishirishi you basically made a mess again with this statement since unfortunately for you a SAS officer is speaking about how "small" the ops would be and he writes the following:

Britain unprepared for Mumbai-style attack, former head of SAS saysBritain is unprepared for a Mumbai (Bombay)-style terror attack and hundreds of civilians would die if the country was targeted in such a way, the former head of the SAS has revealed.

i guess that means SAS would handle op in 32 seconds compared to earlier 1.5 seconds

Imagine 10 TSP pigs managed to create havoc in the financial captal for over 61 hours. That is the limit for absoulte fatigue. The terrorists could not have managed to stay wake any longer. Read the transcripts of the opperation and you will realise how ill prepared and disorganised the whole opperation was. Look at the equipment they had available. Look at the coordintion. Not to mention how the soldiers were lost.

what are you going on about. terrorists were drugged on speed and they had enough food and water in hotel to sustain themselves apart from dried fruitsyou did not even know what the NSG was and now you claim you have transcripts to see how "ill planned entire op" was.10 TSP "pigs" hitting multiple locations and NSG rescued the hostage/guests and gunned everyone of them down, apart from 2.and you are still going on and on

in comparison a professional, eg SAS former head says:

The former SAS commander, a lieutenant colonel who was involved in providing support to the Metropolitan police following both the 7/7 and 21/7 London tube attacks, said that the UK does not have enough of the right type of counter-terrorist forces in London or other major cities to deal with a multi-site, and mobile terrorist incident such as we seen in Mumbai.The officer, who won the Military Cross fighting al-Qaeda units in Afghanistan in 2001, and spent most of the last three years in Iraq fighting against the same enemy said: "The doomsday scenario that we always presented in planning was multiple and mobile incidents in London by suicidal armed terrorists because very quickly they could achieve a lot of fatalities before anyone could pinpoint the threats and react effectively."This would produce the type of chaos that would defy even the most sophisticated command and control systems. You would turn London into a temporary war zone very quickly."...................

He added: "It was always the doomsday scenario which Peter Clarke and I both recognised as the most challenging. In the early stages of such an attack there would a lot of death and chaos. Our unarmed police would be able to do very little except report in. There would be many hours of chaos before the police, backed by the military counter-terrorist response teams were in a position to contain, let alone neutralise, the terrorist threats."The former officer added that British armed response teams are not as numerous, well trained or equipped as they should be to deal with a fast moving and violent a scenario as that which occurred in Mumbai.

.. same as in Indiaand indian security forces did respond, successfully

Hence my initial conclusion that the forces were not trained for this. I fear that the "sucess" of this opperation will encorage them to try the stunt once more at the same place(just to humiliate India).

you do not even know what NSG is. you dont even know what MARCOS is. i am sure you dont even know timeline of the entire scenario who first respondents were and when NSG came in, but you are talking and talkingwith posts like yours the head hurts

we in india are aware of what NSG did and how they managed the op and the lashkar knows their gambit of killing 5000 people flopped thanks to NSGTaj was not destroyed like mariott was nor were all guests killed like lashkar plannedyes india was hurt but the soldiers kept the nations belief

enough said

It is unfairlof you to start making insinuations, How do you know how much I know? But what about you. Have you ever held a gun?

Do you really think it is possible to sustain extreme preshure for over 61 hours, living on dry fruits and some cocaine substance. Have you ever tried to be in opperations after 30hours of stress? you go crazy. I Actually fell a sleep, while walking. After 24 hours, your vision starts to deter, after 36 hours you even have problems to speak.

Why are you so hyposensitive about anything negative about Indian forces or products. Had I said this about TSP forces, you would have agreed. Actually I am not critising the the soldiers, but the equipment they had. A NSG officer lost his life, because he did not evne have radio communication. My question goes to the military planners who were totally unprepard for this. This time they were 10. What about next time? What if they were 100? The senario sends chills down my spine.

It is unfairlof you to start making insinuations, How do you know how much I know?

i can only judge you by what you write. most of what you have written so far is like reading arundhati roy. it gives me a headache you just post rambling opinion pieces to support your preexisting prejudices that is not information but editorial pieces

But what about you. Have you ever held a gun?

yes

Do you really think it is possible to sustain extreme preshure for over 61 hours, living on dry fruits and some cocaine substance. Have you ever tried to be in opperations after 30hours of stress? you go crazy. I Actually fell a sleep, while walking. After 24 hours, your vision starts to deter, after 36 hours you even have problems to speak.

i have been awake for near 2 days hours at stretch and managed in a high stress (physical) environmenti know people who did so for over that and were still ok, they were in good physical shapethere are people in armed forces who have done much more than that both as part of training and as part of operations

i have also been following this issue closely with folks who deal with such cases and they dont find it anything remarkable that amphetamine combos could lend trained soldiers initial strength and make them sustainall NSG statements support the fact that initial "high" of terrorists was fuelled by drugs and later 2-3 days they were just randomly attacking and fleeing battle which supports statements

now to compare almost everything you have said on topic so far is wrong:first it was claims of equipment and tactics - which were wrongthen claim of speaking for SAS- which was wrong coz there are articles above from SAS people contradicting youand now you are still writing similarlyi am sorry but your claim simply lack coherence

Why are you so hyposensitive about anything negative about Indian forces or products. Had I said this about TSP forces, you would have agreed.

oh man this is a bigger joke, LOLhow do you know what i would have said for TSP forces?second what are you aware of about TSP forces and productsfor your kind information in some case TSP force got equipment earlier than indian force in good old days and it is sometimes better as TSP import like crazy --go see F-16 A2G package

point is if you write incorrectly about tactics when you did not even know what NSG was who will take you seriously? rahulm response was correct, knowing what you had written he just laughedsame goes for equipmentpeople disagree with you because you are wrong and in major waypls do some introspection before making sweeping statement

Actually I am not critising the the soldiers, but the equipment they had. A NSG officer lost his life, because he did not evne have radio communication. My question goes to the military planners who were totally unprepard for this. This time they were 10. What about next time? What if they were 100? The senario sends chills down my spine.

fineso this is your new point and again it is wrong

NSG officer deliberately chose to forego communication within the hit team for tactical reasonstill date in 103+ operations that has workedin 1 it has notand they will evaluate change and go for it

if you actually knew about NSG in detail you would know why this method was chosenit has served NSG well in inter ops with other forces also

second about military planner not preparedhave you even read previous article about UK- nobody is prepared for strike of this magnitude

the people to blame here are politicians in india actually present Upa govt who for votes have made absolute mess of intell coordination and a NSA who was sleeping on the job instead of making sure intell was on these guys

the ones who deserve blame are the same people

not the NSG and others who rushed into danger under such circumstancesif you understood what NSG did in mumbai in the ops you would then understand; we indians are more outraged over the politicians and civvie types who made such huge mistake all these times and this time (no anonymous bomb blasts to escape pressure over)

now if you are scared about 100 well here we are and we are also scared, angry whatever at the way our government is and the stupid idiots who elected MM singh and dress sense patilwhat else can we do with such loser

but we are not scared about NSG and others who will do the jobpoint is though how long can we keep taking such hits while sonia madam has SPG protection and rahul baba can party while mumbai is attacked

Letter on US SWAT Teams (Name withheld)In the 90's I participated in training SWAT teams to react to terrorist incidents at the Friendship Games in Seattle. Wide variety of skill sets from Federal to County to State Agency. We were the OPFOR, doing it for fun. Without going into too many details we had a group of 12 infiltrate four sites in the same general area, take hostages and launch 2 diversionary chem war strikes. Whilst the SWAT teams were highly motivated and well trained by standards of the time, several lessons learned then would apply worldwide today.

1. SWAT teams 99% of the time are called to deal with a drunk with a gun. That breeds complacency/failure when that isn't the stipulated perpetrator.

2. SWAT teams NEVER deal with pros. VERY seldom do they even deal with professional criminals, much less organized/trained perpetrator with reaction plans anticipating an assault

3. SWAT teams focus too much on evidence/chain of custody. They don't get quick battlefield intel because they are trying to apprehend perp not disarm/debrief them.

4. SWAT teams hesitate pulling the trigger (due to ethics/training/paperwork/etc). Pro perpetrators don't hesitate. The above factors combine to create a huge advantage to the perpetrator. If the perpetrator adds proper recon, good/secure internal commo and seizing/maintaining initiative then it is clear that SWAT teams can only succeed against pros by either 1) going extra-legal for the duration of the exercise; 2) using overwhelming force and willingness to accept corresponding police/civilian casualties; 3) being incredibly lucky.

I'm certainly confident that current SWAT teams have improved tactics/skills/equipment in the past 20 years. One presumes the bad guys have had the same opportunity. The miracle is thatlsewhere).

basically that SWAT in west would also be overwhelmed by this kind of op.

second about training.

these 10 shooters in mumbai went through anywhere from 3 month - 1 year worth of training. three phases, 1st to build up physical fitness, indoctrination. second to build commando skills, third for more advanced techniques. this is virtual replica of standard training in armies.

it is worth remarking that most SF training of regular seconded officers/crew lasts for 1 -2 months. even considering these were raw recruits the pakis had ample time to train them

second:mumbai mirror says that one of attackers in nariman got sh*t scared when NSG attacked and his partner called up lakhvi in pakistan who spoke quranic verses to him to boost confidence

when NSG used HHTI against these guys, they used fires to disguise themselves and on one occasion hid inside bathtub

so at every stage these guys were in touch with handlers back in pakistan

even then we know from NSG in taj that these guys "broke" on 2nd day of battle, with drug wearing off, so the training could not compensate for NSGs trained discipline and professional bravery

in contrast NSG is comprised of professional battle hardened soldiers from operational tours in kashmir

this was basically NSG versus SSG Musa (naval) unit / SSGN; NSG won but before they arrived these scum managed to execute civilians

in other thread, admiral of indian navy is asked about this and he says these guys are basically trained by professionals and not raw recruits, he gives example of how these guys did attack on mumbai using dinghy with outboard motor and seakeeping skills which come from dedicated training

gentlemen this is very clear that this was not some random strike but actually very carefully plotted attack by PA/ISI using deniable LET proxy recruiting expendable foot soldier

kasav for example if not captured who would have traced him to remote village of pakistan

unfortunately for them ordinary mumbai police rose beyond call of duty (tukaram omble sir, RIP) and captured ajmal kasav giving the indian and world community in depth evidence

something has to be done to deter LET and other org in pakistan in a very direct and brutal mannerthey have to be hurt very badly so much so they stop this or reconsider attack against india

something very brutal and very visible

for all talk of jihad these pakistani are cowards ..when there was talk of airstrike they were running scared and reuter reporter say that he was getting worried questions from LET people at muridke

Vikram, you are still beating the same point and not ready to accept that NSG guy's eye could have been saved if he was wearing eye goggles. The other point is why all these "tactical limitations" comes into play when it comes to Indian SF whereas western forces are using NVGs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

IMVHO, I believe that our SFs should be armed and equipped to the teeth and there is still room for improvement. Regarding juming into this discussion, I had made similar assertions (military googles and NVG) on Indian SF thread.

neerajbhandari wrote:Vikram, you are still beating the same point and not ready to accept that NSG guy's eye could have been saved if he was wearing eye goggles.

repetition of claim with zero proof dont convinceyour goggles are of limited use (if at all) in blast radii of grenade with fragments at > 150 fpsdo us favor and go and read the ANSI standard mentioned

this is viz specific case of AKSingh.......FOR low vel fragments threat, whether to wear goggle 24/7 is upto operator and a separate discussion by itself

The other point is why all these "tactical limitations" comes into play when it comes to Indian SF whereas western forces are using NVGs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

once again, you do not read posts but merely reply off the cuff

these tactical limitations apply to ALL forces

a few weeks back us papers had remarks on the same lines of body armor - mobility vs protection (soldier preferred mobility) and fancier and fancier electronics (soldiers were fed up of weight and carrying more batteries and were going without several gear)

all forces world over face same problems

you seem to be living in some hollywood inspired belief where people use this eqpt 24/7 not as and when required, second part of which is my point

i already gave you the exact three areas where nvg are used in operations and limitation which apply worldwide

to understand

Contrary to civilian applications of night vision devices military users and law enforcement units mostly refuse the use of additional infrared illumination (IR illuminator) - of course with exception of IR designators. Their experiences with systems of the Generation 0 (active night vision devices) accelerated the development of image intensifier tubes, which did not need traitorous IR illumination any more. If at all, a source of infrared light can only be seen with the naked eye on short distances in complete darkness by directly looking into. But to the opponent equipped with night vision devices it represents almost a brightly 'position light'. In addition for long observation distances efficient illuminators were needed, which were mostly very large in size and because of their power supply very heavy.Therefore many military night vision devices have only a small built-in infrared LED, which can be used for map reading or for orientation within short distances in areas completely without any low light (whereby within buildings night vision devices are not used mostly at all because of the reduced field of view and the blinding effect of strong white flashlights on the opponent).

Because they are based on amplification methods, some light is required. This method is not useful when there is essentially no light.Inferior daytime performance when compared to daylight-only methodsPossibility of blooming and damage when observing bright sources under low-light conditions.

now consider taj/trident ops in pitch dark in closed confine without external source of light (moonlight in open cloudless space as comparison) and understand why HHTI was used and what limitation HHTI has

apart from that i really cannot continue this useless conversation anymore unless you understand the technology under discussion and operational usage

IMVHO, I believe that our SFs should be armed and equipped to the teeth and there is still room for improvement. Regarding juming into this discussion, I had made similar assertions (military googles and NVG) on Indian SF thread.Cheers....

if you made similar statement in sf thread then they will not be taken seriously either unless you have evidence

right now you have very little evidence and merely wrong belief

if you were even half serious observer of indian security force you would actually know what is in inventory of indian SF for ages and what is not

they are all in mass service for long time with pros and cons of each, you can get even order number from mass mediaif technology was perfect then army would not need to maintain constant patrol of line of actual control with troops even with best of technology infiltration occurs and in afghan the ISAF has battle after battle thanks to ambushesthink about what that mean

There is that unknown factor about regular forces that irregulars can never match. There is much more to SF training than what the piglets went thru. for a variety of reasons a bunch of piglets in Pakistan cant be put thru a full monty program like the SSG Musas. And then for SF are not meant to take on other SF in symmetrical battle. All tactics are meant to be asymmetrical. You use SF against unprepared or wrongly prepared defensive forces for max impact. and you finish the mission and try to get the hell out of Dadar before the fight escalates. SF may have special training but are human - that is the way you are taught in the Indian military. the deep thinkers and planners in pigland who taught these piglets seem to have forgotten those lessons. according to the piglet who got caught they were told that the policemen are easy meat and inefficient. that is stupid one for the pigland planner and stupid squared for the piglet who believes it. i see a thread connecting all pigland thinking. slapping-my-own-back-i-am-such-a-clever-tactician thinkijng with zero look ahead strategy. Kargil saw that thinking with the pigland guys imagining that India would firstly not be able to take back the high ground (with the usual force ratio thinking 3:1 defensive in the plains and 9:1 in the hills) only to see India launch an arty duel and then extra high altitude precision aerial bombing. In Bombay again India escalated right away with massive numbers. And I assure you had there been a 100 terrorists every fireman/policeman/Railway rakshak would have been in the fight with their pea-shooters if necessary. Even Rumsfeld doesn't believe that a light and quick and fast force will do.

It is unfairlof you to start making insinuations, How do you know how much I know?

i can only judge you by what you write. most of what you have written so far is like reading arundhati roy. it gives me a headache you just post rambling opinion pieces to support your preexisting prejudices that is not information but editorial pieces

But what about you. Have you ever held a gun?

yes

Do you really think it is possible to sustain extreme preshure for over 61 hours, living on dry fruits and some cocaine substance. Have you ever tried to be in opperations after 30hours of stress? you go crazy. I Actually fell a sleep, while walking. After 24 hours, your vision starts to deter, after 36 hours you even have problems to speak.

i have been awake for near 2 days hours at stretch and managed in a high stress (physical) environmenti know people who did so for over that and were still ok, they were in good physical shapethere are people in armed forces who have done much more than that both as part of training and as part of operations

i have also been following this issue closely with folks who deal with such cases and they dont find it anything remarkable that amphetamine combos could lend trained soldiers initial strength and make them sustainall NSG statements support the fact that initial "high" of terrorists was fuelled by drugs and later 2-3 days they were just randomly attacking and fleeing battle which supports statements

now to compare almost everything you have said on topic so far is wrong:first it was claims of equipment and tactics - which were wrongthen claim of speaking for SAS- which was wrong coz there are articles above from SAS people contradicting youand now you are still writing similarlyi am sorry but your claim simply lack coherence

Why are you so hyposensitive about anything negative about Indian forces or products. Had I said this about TSP forces, you would have agreed.

oh man this is a bigger joke, LOLhow do you know what i would have said for TSP forces?second what are you aware of about TSP forces and productsfor your kind information in some case TSP force got equipment earlier than indian force in good old days and it is sometimes better as TSP import like crazy --go see F-16 A2G package

point is if you write incorrectly about tactics when you did not even know what NSG was who will take you seriously? rahulm response was correct, knowing what you had written he just laughedsame goes for equipmentpeople disagree with you because you are wrong and in major waypls do some introspection before making sweeping statement

Actually I am not critising the the soldiers, but the equipment they had. A NSG officer lost his life, because he did not evne have radio communication. My question goes to the military planners who were totally unprepard for this. This time they were 10. What about next time? What if they were 100? The senario sends chills down my spine.

fineso this is your new point and again it is wrong

NSG officer deliberately chose to forego communication within the hit team for tactical reasonstill date in 103+ operations that has workedin 1 it has notand they will evaluate change and go for it

if you actually knew about NSG in detail you would know why this method was chosenit has served NSG well in inter ops with other forces also

second about military planner not preparedhave you even read previous article about UK- nobody is prepared for strike of this magnitude

the people to blame here are politicians in india actually present Upa govt who for votes have made absolute mess of intell coordination and a NSA who was sleeping on the job instead of making sure intell was on these guys

the ones who deserve blame are the same people

not the NSG and others who rushed into danger under such circumstancesif you understood what NSG did in mumbai in the ops you would then understand; we indians are more outraged over the politicians and civvie types who made such huge mistake all these times and this time (no anonymous bomb blasts to escape pressure over)

now if you are scared about 100 well here we are and we are also scared, angry whatever at the way our government is and the stupid idiots who elected MM singh and dress sense patilwhat else can we do with such loser

but we are not scared about NSG and others who will do the jobpoint is though how long can we keep taking such hits while sonia madam has SPG protection and rahul baba can party while mumbai is attacked

and that is larger crux of issue

Yeh you are as good as fresh, after 48 hours of non stop high stress. Much better tactics to forgo radio communication, why would you want to overburden the commandos with all that information, they can only loose their life. 61 hours of non stop show, that is called bang for the buck. Had it not been for the highly organised and efficent security forces, the massive strenght of 10 Jehadis, would have continued for another week. Because sleep and stress is not really a factor here.

Rishirishi wrote:[ Much better tactics to forgo radio communication, why would you want to overburden the commandos with all that information, they can only loose their life. .

rishi - an article in this thread quotes the NSG as to why they use radios the way they do. they found in trials that if all members of the squad had radios it got very confusing - because it was difficult to differentiate who was saying what. so they evolved tactics where the squad lead has the radio and the others follow his hand signals.

btw - hand signals are how infantry work in the field, its evolved over considerable time and is generally quite effective

rishirishi wrote:Yeh you are as good as fresh, after 48 hours of non stop high stress.

did anyone say that or is that your own bias talkinghavent you read already that by 2nd,3rd day jihadi were mostly trying to avoid sec forces and were instead trying to target hostages and hiding in rooms

Much better tactics to forgo radio communication, why would you want to overburden the commandos with all that information, they can only loose their life.

go read article about nsg tactics right now because you dont like hearing something you ignore itnsg in past exercise decided on hit team (5 member) using silent signalling while hit team leader maintain radio contact with higher unitthis has worked in previous 100 plus live ops

61 hours of non stop show, that is called bang for the buck. Had it not been for the highly organised and efficent security forces, the massive strenght of 10 Jehadis, would have continued for another week. Because sleep and stress is not really a factor here.

more funny talkthe point is not hours taken but to keep jihadi away from hostages and evacuate hostageif security forces had not intervene and pushed away terrorists from hostages, then it would have cause much more casualties at beginning

it took 61 hours to evacuate almost all hostage and kill terroristsnot dance around building

the sas team member points out that it will take time to see every spot in the hotel from top to bottomunlike what you say

at this point you are just arguing for sake of pridebut you dont have anything useful to add

neerajbhandari wrote:Vikram, you are still beating the same point and not ready to accept that NSG guy's eye could have been saved if he was wearing eye goggles. The other point is why all these "tactical limitations" comes into play when it comes to Indian SF whereas western forces are using NVGs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

IMVHO, I believe that our SFs should be armed and equipped to the teeth and there is still room for improvement. Regarding juming into this discussion, I had made similar assertions (military googles and NVG) on Indian SF thread.

Cheers....

No, Googles only protect your eyes when its low velocity wood splinters and other small irritants and what is a blast proof googles? Have you ever seen a double pane window? try wearing that on your face while you fight in the dark. Have you ever tried driving a car at night with clear glasses on? Now with all this info, is there anybody with iota of commonsense use 'Blast proog Googles' in a night fight within closed spaces? Western forces use NVG's in open areas, not in closed rooms, unless one want to be blinded temporarily by their own muzzle flash. What the hell are you talking about? For everybody who's gloating about how the western forces could have achieved better results, I have 3 words for you guys, '1993 Waco Seige'. Even though its been a long time, some of us still remember the images which we saw on The World This Week.

For a whole week, this thread (or actually its predecessor) looked like it was dead....then adminullahs change topic from 'pics and news' to 'discussion' (GJ is probably off somewhere sharpening hatchet) and today when I log in after 3 days I see this absolutely ridiculous ongoing 'discussion until concussion' between various fanboys and B-R jingos with all sorts of raakitmard attacks and jinn-e-bambari raining down on likes of Vikram_S (even from his evil twin VikramS) who is trying to counter heroically with logic and knowledge

Why does all this exciting stuff happen on B-R only when I have no access to B-R

Vikram_S and RahulM....What is the % increase in your blood pressure over past 2 days? I dont blame you....some of the gems being posted on this thread and on the Special Forces thread is enough to make any sane person a paki!

Some of the posters here seem to be afflicted with brochuritis and shiny kit syndrome and everyone has become an expert on how HRT must be conducted...especially in a scenario where real-life HRT has never been conducted!

I am not saying NSG is perfect and that there should be no criticism. For example, their long travel time is definitely a big problem and a lesson not yet learnt from the past...for which their higher-ups should be taken to task (note that NSG had put in a requisition for their own autonomous air wing quite a while back). Every real world experience is a learning experience to address shortcomings and evolve....this cycle never ends and every experience will always have some shortcoming.

But before second guessing why NSG didnt do this or that, why they weren't wearing shiny kit #1 or #2,...why no NVGs (despite ample evidence of use of NVGs and TIs)....if they used NVGs why couldnt they magically see everything (including the brands of chaddis the paki terrorists were wearing) in middle of massive fires, smoke, sprinklers, why level III BPJ did not stop AK bullets at point blank range, why isnt every NSG trooper not loaded out like Rambo, why is a trooper standing in public view not wearing this or that (without realizing that NSG had a staging area in each place which was not open to the hoardes of press) etc. etc., take a moment, educate yourself (and that does not include Hollywood, Dallas SWAT and Bruce Willis) and then post. Otherwise you are bringing B-R to the level of D&D forum and myriad other forums on the internet which are filled with wide eyed fanboys whose only knowledge of the military is Call of Duty and Oliver Stone.

To reiterate what have I said earlier on one of the threads...in this age of 30 second attention spans aided by hollywood movies and 'reality police shows', we expect 1000 room buildings to be taken down in 15 minutes. If that doesnt happen we complain (like one of the above quoted news articles) why NSG had to take 60 hours doing a room by room search without realizing this is how real life HRT works. Its grimy gritty dirty bloody (and some will say 99% time boring and routine) and for the first time the world saw it as is...no spin...no select cut scenes...nothing left out. The fancy storming of buildings in black kits whispering into throat mikes is for the movies. Even in Op.Nimrod (SAS op on the iranian embassy) one trooper got caught while abseiling down and got burnt by a flashbang....that is reality. His mates probably dont remember how cool they looked while entering the embassy....they probably are just grateful that he survived and they got all the bad guys that time. The next time it might be different (and for them it was). Special Forces is not about glamour or fighting with shiny kit....it is about highly trained fine soldiers who attempt the impossible and sometimes succeed and sometimes they pay with their lives, without remorse without regret. As Maroof Raza said in one of Maurica Biswas's documentaries....(paraphrasing) Special Forces is about special men (and women) who can think straight and act when other soldiers just want to lie down and die.

Just saying that you respect their bravery and then proceed to second guess them is as insulting to their profession as saying that they were 'poorly trained' (for people who think that the latter case of being poorly trained etc. was true I am still waiting for someone to tell me a real-world operation undertaken by a western/israeli SF on this magnitude facing terrorists of this caliber).

And last but not the least, remember: HR = Hostage Rescue; HR != Slaughter Terrorists regardless

Rahul M wrote:people forget that this was the largest and most difficult ever urban HR ops in history.

rishirishi, frankly, after your knowledge or rather the lack of it on NSG has been revealed you have lost any credibility whatsoever to talk nonsense on this issue.

stop yourself from posting ill-thought out and ill-knowledged opinion on this thread unless you want to be forcibly gagged.

I have admitted that I do NOT know in detail what the NSG and MARCOS are. For the record, I have never even talked to anyone of them.

What made me draw the wrongfully conclusion that they were not counter terror, was the way the opperation has been described. For example They were not (in the pictures I have seen) even equipped with masks. Imagine if the terrorists had lured them in a space and thrown a can of CS (teargas).

Before everyone starts Jumping me, I am not claiming that they were unprepared for this, maybe I just did not see the masks in the pictures or what ever.

I was hoping to get a discusion out of this, look at the strength and weaknesses and perhaps exlpore realistic strategies to counter such an event. And I want to undrstand how 10 terrorists managed to run the show for such a long time.My English may not be very good, but I know what I am talking about. I am not here to win some intelectual debate, where I would need credability.

Rishirishi wrote:[ Much better tactics to forgo radio communication, why would you want to overburden the commandos with all that information, they can only loose their life. .

rishi - an article in this thread quotes the NSG as to why they use radios the way they do. they found in trials that if all members of the squad had radios it got very confusing - because it was difficult to differentiate who was saying what. so they evolved tactics where the squad lead has the radio and the others follow his hand signals.

btw - hand signals are how infantry work in the field, its evolved over considerable time and is generally quite effective

OK I will give you and answer and you may not like what I have to say, but if you respond, please do so in a respactable manner.

Firstly there is a sea of difference between the challenges in a battle field and a place like TAJ. Your first problem is that there may be hostages, your second problem is that you have a 3 dimensional 360 deg threat senario. you can be taken out from above, beneth, front and back. Your third problem is you may take out your buddy or get killed your self in a cross fire. At any given time, it is imperrative that you have maximum of inteligenace and acess to info from outside. You need to be able to report back. Sign language is a backup, not the first choice.

How do you tell your buddy that there is one terrorists, behind the wall on third floor with a clar view of the forward balcony? They used sign language, when the batteries went dead. If sign language was just as good, then why did they use the radio at all? What happnes if they take out your communication guy?

A radio set wight is about 500 grams and is easy to use. It has an channel selector and can even be turned OFF and ON. I belive somone is trying to save face, by claiming that the group works better without universal use of communication. To claim that a radio creats confusion is utter nonesence. Either they are very stupid and cant maintain protocol or the officials are trying to hide the fact that they did not bother equipping the forces. I do not think the forces are stupid or lack disiplin.

Just my thoughts, constructive arguments welcome. Request Mr Vikram and those who think I do not know what I am talking about, to rest.

rishi, please read the article suggested by Lalmohan. It answers a lot of your questions (and others you can figure out through it). A lot of posters are asking questions which have been raised and answered (or addressed in articles) in the previous thread. Dig that thread out and the special forces discussion and read through them in entirety before asking your questions. Someone remarked B-R is like drinking from a fire hose....its true....there is a ton of useful info here if you take the pain to read it before posting.

Rishirishi wrote:How do you tell your buddy that there is one terrorists, behind the wall on third floor with a clar view of the forward balcony? They used sign language, when the batteries went dead. If sign language was just as good, then why did they use the radio at all? What happnes if they take out your communication guy?

Hit teams are close knit units whose members fight WVR( ?) whereas other hit teams might be located BVR.

Sign language is used within a hit team and radios used between multiple hit teams.

A radio set wight is about 500 grams and is easy to use. It has an channel selector and can even be turned OFF and ON.

To turn something OFF and ON, one requires the use of a hand. Since all NSG men are homosapiens with only 2 hands both of which are being used most of the time in fast moving CQB situations, they do not use radios which require them to turn it OFF and ON. They use VOX - voice activated comms.

I belive somone is trying to save face, by claiming that the group works better without universal use of communication. To claim that a radio creats confusion is utter nonesence. Either they are very stupid and cant maintain protocol or the officials are trying to hide the fact that they did not bother equipping the forces. I do not think the forces are stupid or lack disiplin.

During large scale CQB in their kill house and in collaboration with certain forces they found VOX creates too much confusion because they get activated unnecessarily due to sounds of firefight and create noise on the common net. Can be highly distracting. These forces train day and night and have their 'dance' tuned to a fine art which they can execute in their sleep....trust me they have thought out the elementary issues that you are discovering now, ages back. That being said, given what I have seen in the past about NSG they will look into the experience of what happened to Unni and create tactics to deal with it (may or may not mean radios used by all personnel).

Will appreciate if you could post the links you had mentioned about the Battle of Chambers and the single shots.

WRT: Working around man-power constraints and the risk of friendly fire with Army regulars without specialized trainings: If the soldier's were posted behind stairwell-doors, say half a flight up with a clear sight to the door, the chance of friendly fire deaths are not high simply because the field of fire is very limited. All the guy has to do is to keep an eye on the door to open and check if a pig is coming through. Further a protocol could be developed to alert the door-guard that a good guy is coming through (say a pattern of knocks, or guns pointing down, or right hand up or a flash light signal) assuming RT was not possible.

The knowledge of the presence of the good guys in the stairs would have limited the options available to the pigs. Again this is all speculative; I do not have any first hand information. However I do feel that in such situations where the number of specially trained people is limited, a plan to effectively utilize second-level forces to fill in critical holding positions is worth consideration. It seems the non-special forces were limited to perimeter security duties, quite a distance away from the active battle.

The knowledge of the presence of the good guys in the stairs would have limited the options available to the pigs. Again this is all speculative; I do not have any first hand information. However I do feel that in such situations where the number of specially trained people is limited, a plan to effectively utilize second-level forces to fill in critical holding positions is worth consideration. It seems the non-special forces were limited to perimeter security duties, quite a distance away from the active battle.

IIrc SRG or Army (I am not sure which) was used to secure sanitised areas. NSG cleared it room by room, floor by floor, with rescue followed by sanitisation (of bombs, piglets etc. hazards). Cleared floors were cordoned off and in this manner terrorists were cornered and killed. Note that stairwells are not limited to main stairwells only but tons of service stairwells all over the place (including some which probably dont service all floors)...so everything had to be done systematically and carefully. That also ensured that none of the bombs which the terrorists had planted exploded (I believe Taj alone had about 16 live bombs+RDX cache).

DEHRADUN: Army chief Deepak Kapoor said hundreds of Sandeeps were ready to protect India. He was referring to one of the Mumbai terror heroes NSG commando Sandeep Unnikrishnan who made the supreme sacrifice while fighting terrorists.

"Though we may have lost one Sandeep Unnikrishnan, we are preparing many such officers here at the Indian Military Academy,'' he said after reviewing the passing-out parade and oath-taking by newly-commissioned officers at IMA.

Addressing the newly-commissioned officers, the Army chief asked them to "lead from the front, meet all challenges squarely and uphold your values''. "Today, you will venture forth as commanders and the men you command will look at you for guidance and sustenance,'' said the Army chief.

"Our country is facing multifarious challenges today, and the military must not only ensure security of the country but also help in nation-building,'' he said.

Of the 498 Gentleman Cadets (GCs) who passed out as officers, 468 have joined the Army. Twenty four are foreign GCs from Bhutan, Nepal and Tajikistan. The remaining are from Assam Rifles, a para-military force under the Union home ministry.

As per the tradition of the passing-out parade, the GCs marched to the tunes `Colonel Bogey's March' and `Saare jahan se achha...' played by the bands of IMA, Kumaon Regimental Centre and Bengal Engineering Group and Centre.

`Auld Lang syne' (Old Long Since) is played every time when the GCs march into the Chetwode building after crossing the `Antim Pag' (Final Step), symbolically leaving their life in the academy behind and emerging as young officers of the Indian Army.

Army helicopters showered petals on the passing out cadets as they marched into the Chetwode Building.

The parade was commanded by Abhishek Gargmukh, who bagged the sword of honour as well as the gold medal.

ToI had this as front page news on their website last night. Disappeared soon after it appeared, and was shahid-ed from the print version this morning.

There appears to be a concerted campaign by certain quarters eager to ensure that the armed forces get no credit for the mumbai ops, to disassociate Major Unnikrishnan from the armed forces of India, and refer to him as "Commando Unnikrishnan". Even here, what the hell is "Mumbai Terror Hero NSG Commando Unnikrishnan"? He was Major S. Unnikrishnan.

all the rooms in Taj and Oberoi have windows, why not enter them as an encirclement on various floors using helis or sliding down from the roof and lay wait in these rooms, you might hit a 'live' room, if the risk of being shot at or blown is reduced, thats not a problem. There are various search algorithms and divding the problem space or in this case the number of rooms is what they optimize on mostly instead of doing the linear search that NSG did taking a lot of time inspite of large numbers.

on reducing the risk of casualty

wouldn't firing of blanks elicit a response from terrorists? not from hostages

full armor suits when facing the unknown or you know you are walking into a hail of bullets or grenades, bulky is fine, atleast you provide cover for the guy/sniper behind you for that one sec shot

or walk into a room/space with a door sized armor/blast shield with holes poked and gun barrels jutting out or even thru windows, if you have reduced the risk of being shot at, your overall reaction time will be far less from plan to execution

would tranquilizer bullets, 'stun bullets' from snipers/hit teams not help? when no strategic placement option for them is found, will robo helis not be a choice? there are so many hobby helis and if they are outfitted with equipment that can see through walls, provides rapid scanning at close range, a significant advantage

is there anyway of knowing if these turds carried RDX, chemical, biological or nuke weapons using technology?

disabling of any kind of electronics in their hands using jammers, EMP devices?

hell, in these scenarios special forces are the last line of defense! and there is lot more you can do in this area

Rahul M wrote:ASP, while on deputation to NSG people are referred to as Commando Ram Bhagat (say) irrespective of their rank in their parent organisation.even BR articles say as much. please check them out.

IIRC not just NSG but also Army commandos refer to each other as so. From what I have seen in the BBC documentary on Commando Training School in Belgaum and the movie 'Prahaar' which was very close to actual tradition, jargon, training, etc of commandos.Not sure about MARCOs.

all the rooms in Taj and Oberoi have windows, why not enter them as an encirclement on various floors using helis or sliding down from the roof and lay wait in these rooms, you might hit a 'live' room, if the risk of being shot at or blown is reduced, thats not a problem. There are various search algorithms and divding the problem space or in this case the number of rooms is what they optimize on mostly instead of doing the linear search that NSG did taking a lot of time inspite of large numbers.

When did people stop reading or do not understand on reading english when they can write in the same. Sigh!!

wouldn't firing of blanks elicit a response from terrorists? not from hostages

Yes, and put up a large Banner outside the Windows stating "BLANKS BEING FIRED" SDRE's request you to do the same!

full armor suits when facing the unknown or you know you are walking into a hail of bullets or grenades, bulky is fine, atleast you provide cover for the guy/sniper behind you for that one sec shot

Yes, the full armour suits (whatever that is) should be sourced from Western Costume Inc (please Google, Ask, yahoo whatever)...Hmm....Snipers carrying bolt action Short barrel rifles.(what else would fit into the confined space) and HE SHOULD use the scope to find the target...with laser pointer to boot...

or walk into a room/space with a door sized armor/blast shield with holes poked and gun barrels jutting out or even thru windows, if you have reduced the risk of being shot at, your overall reaction time will be far less from plan to execution

Again this is sourced from Western Costume which i believe is the largest supplier in the world. and the window is blasted out (mark OUT, using explosives which will blast outwards...once the 400-500 windows are blasted and the shock waves recede...there will be a lot of FREE space!

Hmm....but the terrorists and the NSG both have SuperSuction Cups fitted to the bottom of their Shoes so they can walk upside down on the ceiling...this negates the trip wires. and there are only 650 rooms and a few thousand metres of hallways, service ducts etc to clear.

would tranquilizer bullets, 'stun bullets' from snipers/hit teams not help? when no strategic placement option for them is found, will robo helis not be a choice? there are so many hobby helis and if they are outfitted with equipment that can see through walls, provides rapid scanning at close range, a significant advantage

Hmm...robo helis are Super stable and so this is a wonderful idea! Tranquilizer bullets! welll...so you fill up the hollow tip bullets with a tranquilizer fluid...equipment that sees through walls and RAPID scanning (observe Rapid means - 360 degree, spherical scanning in less than 30 seconds) is available in plenty courtsey of EON and IMDB Inc.

is there anyway of knowing if these turds carried RDX, chemical, biological or nuke weapons using technology?

Yes...this equipment is fitted to the scanner on all robo helis and crawlers (these are small radio remote controlled eight wheeled vehicles which are almost flat and can even crawl beneath doorways...

disabling of any kind of electronics in their hands using jammers, EMP devices?

The EMP devices are sourced from plans-kits.com. these are state of the art and can fry the electronics of anything. hmm....pretty good aint it!

*****Apologies if you feel I am being sarcastic, welcome to BR**********

Rahul M wrote:ASP, while on deputation to NSG people are referred to as Commando Ram Bhagat (say) irrespective of their rank in their parent organisation.even BR articles say as much. please check them out.

Hi Rahul.

The BR articles which I have read say that this is so for the Junior Leaders Commando course. Not in active service. And not on deputation to the NSG. The officers who undergo the JLC course are termed "commando" for the duration of their training because there should be equity between trainees, and since you are of commissioned rank, and senior to your PBOR instructors, this barrier must be removed. Indeed, as you are allowed to take the course till the age of 30, you can be any rank between Lt. and Major, and besides, could even be senior in rank to your instructors who are officers.

Officers on deputation to NSG are not known as "commando" except colloquially. They are officers, and retain their ranks. Indeed, I recently met an officer on deputation with the NSG, and I heard him referred to only as "Colonel" or "Sir", and certainly not as "commando so and so".

A major is a mid level, field grade officer, and is not referred to only as "commando". He is definitely a commando (although the term is an unofficial monicker), but he has a rank, and that rank is not sublimated by deputation to the NSG.

The army leads from the front. Sadly, many people take this to mean that the officers and ranks who lead thus are not important, because in our culture the less work you do, espcially of a physical nature, the higher up you supposedly are.

It is my endeavour to correct such misconceptions and point them out when I see them in media reports/conversation/etc.

They're all young: to be in the NSG, you have to be below 40. These men have been through the world's most gruelling physical training - two men died last summer during the basic course. There are no ranks - everyone is a commando, as the label on the breast pocket indicates: Commando Rajesh Bhowmick and not Captain Rajesh Bhowmick as it would read back in his army regiment. The trainees on their morning jog don't stop to salute their officer, merely pass him by, in a whiff of male sweat and the stamp of boots, with a "Ram, Ram, Sir!"

Ah. . Saw some references to the JLC above, so thought thats what you chaps were talking about. My fault. The fact is that he was a major, and also a commando. It becomes a matter of preference, I suppose, what you want to call him, but at no point does he become "not a major". Military convention tends to dictate that you use an officers rank when referring to him. The article you have quoted has mentioned that in the NSG this is not convention (although, as I said, the officer I met was referred to by rank). Since we are not NSG commandos, I am guessing that NSG's style does not apply to us, and it is probably appropriate for us, and the media to refer to him as Maj. Unnikrishnan?