Walaikumsalam Eid Mubarak to you and all. The system of caliphate is wrong in the first place there is no place for such an innovation, no one said that there has to be a caliphate and that it has to be created by election, if standard of caliphate creation was election then why appointment at the time of umar and then shura at the time of uthman. In the name of Islam it was power grabbing exercise which prophet never asked for The same system has made people like muawiya and yazeed as caliphs and the abbasides who became the source of misery to prophet family because they knew that whose right it was hence they did the oppression. Wilayat that is God given have all the dimensions in it - be it wilayat of love, rulership or spiritual guidance. If Allah chooses someone which He did in the 12 imams then He chose them who were perfect in having that all types of wilayat. Who could deliver but oppressors did all the mischiefs to grab power. It is ludicrous to say that imams are deficient as rulers if they were then imams would have not struggled to establish or convey who were oppressors and who are rightful deserving ones. When the atrocities grew due to that struggle then the taqqiya was ordered as a means of survival. If not why would they feel threatened about some spiritual people who wants to follow just their rituals of ibadat. Caliphate of God is such a high rank when God said I am appointing a caliph of mine on earth even angels said we are the one who deserve it but it is given to Allah's chosen one and it was 12 imams pbut.

Why did imam Ali a.s accepted caliphate @ 4 position after the first three if that is not his role. Then why would 12th. Imam come and establish the worldly order and rule it, the so called outward function which you seems to state that did not comes under purview of wilayat. Quran states that my righteous servant will inherit the earth. Is it not prophet established and governed over the people by establishing and executing laws pertaining to matters of state.(jizya tax etc) The fact of the matter is spiritual wilayat subsumes in it all other wilayat - which is wilayat of love and wilayat of leadership. Hence Allah in Quran says - obey Allah, obey Rasul and those who are in authority amongst you hence this authority is in every matter concerning human life. The word obey in the verse is used twice one for Allah and then combining 2 other forms of authority giving it one kind of stature but separating it with authority of Allah. Hence the role of prophet was to bring laws and execute it and after prophet the execution of laws was under imams in every matter of human life. They were followers of musa but they went back to their ways once Moses departed from them. If they were not followers then why would Moses asked Aaron about not stopping them and Aaron saying that I was reminding them but they didn't listen to me. About Moses not completing his mission if I am not mistaken Aaron died before Moses and hence he acted as his deputy only when he was absent during that time.Followers of Abu bakr are muawiya and yazeed, shimr and hurmallah too and. Who are the beneficiary of this greatest biddah of caliphate system which has no sanction from Allah and prophet. Those who are considered Muslims it is Bcoz of not being followers of Abu bakr (he has no positive contribution to Islam except to grab power as imam said in sermon of shaqshaqiya)but bcoz they are following wilayat of love of Ali a.s or wilayat of tasaruf or control but they deny wilayat of leadership hence Allah will decide about them based on their hearts condition. Some ulema had said that they are Muslims only for this world and hence has rights which Islam gives but in aqirah their status is not sure.

What are the grey shades you are talking about. A great majority of Muslims disagree with your interpretation of historyare shias interpretation wrong? You can't say they have no validity whatsoever.How did they acquire validity? But to answer your question, I don't see what the problem is with what I am saying and with Ali being a wali. His "wali-hood" didn't decrease one bit while Abu Bakr , Umar , and Uthman were caliphs. Being or not being a caliph neither adds to nor decreases anything from Ali's wilaya.. I believe the Prophet (S) was conferring a spiritual kind of authority and not a political kind. This goes back to the scope infallibility. The wali can have his particular opinion (as it would be part of his spiritual function to have that opinion and approach) and that opinion and approach will be correct from his point of view, but it doesn't make it absolutely correct since there could very well be other approaches or points of view. So, I wouldn't go as far as saying that the Imams have the same level of authority as the Prophets had. I don't think a wali can tell someone to kill himself. It would go against the Shariah. The Prophet however can technically speaking, because he is the one who reveals the divine laws.I think you are mistaken about the status of the Imams wilaya. Imams have wilaya in every aspect of human life(be it political, social or spiritual) as prophet said 'For whomsoever I am his mawla, `Ali is his mawla.” This he said after asking people do i have right over yourselves more than you have on yourself, when everyone gave affirmative reply he uttered For whomsoever I am his mawla, `Ali is his mawla.”. The Station of Imam-ate is higher than general prophethood because Ibrahim a.s was made Imam after making him rasul and nabi and khalil when he finally offered to give great sacrifice he was conferred with Imamate. and ofcourse Prophet Muhammed was also an Imam.

Brother ethereal below are some points for you What is the legitimacy of the system of Caliphate, did prophet asked people to establish such a system or was just an innovation by people to grab power in the name of Islam? if it is not a legitimate system without any God's sanction then it is a secular system which is as good as any other system propagated by man like socialism, Marxisms or democracy. it has nothing to do with Islam since they follow secular and man made system for socio-economical & political reasons. if it is a valid system sanctioned by God then what is it in relation to vis-a-vis Imam Ali's a.s appointment by prophet? did prophet bifurcated political and spiritual leadership in Islam to be taken up by separate individuals? This system of caliphate is the root cause of killings of all the Imam a.s, this system has resulted in the product like yazeed and muawiya and banu abbas to acquire power and do all atrocities in the name of Islam. There is no justifying of such a system which has no God sanctioned validity. ---------------------- Moreover your whole arguement rest on the premise that it doesnt make sense that people has abandoned Islam after demise of prophet and it is some kind of blot on pophet pbuh. how can you even think that, the problem is with people not with Prophet pbuh. when Moses went on mount toor he appointed prophet harun as his successor but as soon as Musa pbuh left they abondened musa a.s teaching and also harun pbuh and went back to their ways and Harun pbuh was asked by Musa pbuh upon his return why don't you stopped them Harun said they wouldn't listen to him. Then you need to recall the Hadith by Prophet "you are to me like Harun was to Musa except their wont by any prophet after me" then it make it clear that what prophet was indicating. there is no worth in justifying majoratarian view point as Quran says Most people do not know? [shakir 30:30] Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know. ----------------------- The Imams or the 14 masoomeen are hujjah upon us, if they utter anything then that is the last argument and last word one cannot stand in opposition to it. be it fadak, be it saqifa or jamal. this is what any shia with marifa of ahlul bayt holds on to and see everything from the prism of who is with and who is opposing them. when Fatima pbuh said fadak is her's abu bakr cannot say no, when Imam Ali a.s appointed by prophet on ghadeer as wali of momineen then there is no place for any other caliph to come up with any other system. they are the last word. ----------------------- An oppressor cannot say that it is God's wish that is why I am doing oppression but surely oppressed can do sabr on what he suffered from an oppressor. Imam In his sermon of shaqshaqiya of Nahjul Balagha has clearly said that he was being patient for the cause of Islam. here are his pbuh words "So I adopted patience although there was priking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself" and also he says "....But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high." later revealed the reason for why usurped it "....One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship" "....Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them...."

Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyah (sermon 3 of nahjul Balagha) Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it. Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). Proposes Patience in Absence of Supporters I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was priking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself. (Then he quoted al-A`sha’s verse): My days are now passed on the camel’s back (in difficulty) while there were days (of ease) when I enjoyed the company of Jabir’s brother Hayyan.3 It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation. Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high. One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah’s wealth like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate. Allegiance paid to ‘Ali At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like a herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying: That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones. (Qur’an, 28:83) Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them. Behold, by Him who split the grain (to grow) and created living beings, if people had not come to me and supporters had not exhausted the argument and if there had been no pledge of Allah with the learned to the effect that they should not acquiesce in the gluttony of the oppressor and the hunger of the oppressed I would have cast the rope of Caliphate on its own shoulders, and would have given the last one the same treatment as to the first one. Then you would have seen that in my view this world of yours is no better than the sneezing of a goat. (It is said that when Amir al-mu’minin reached here in his sermon a man of Iraq stood up and handed him over a writing. Amir al-mu’minin began looking at it, when Ibn `Abbas said, “O’ Amir al-mu’minin, I wish you resumed your Sermon from where you broke it.” Thereupon he replied, “O’ Ibn `Abbas it was like the foam of a Camel which gushed out but subsided.” Ibn `Abbas says that he never grieved over any utterance as he did over this one because Amir al-mu’minin could not finish it as he wished to.)

the above hadith is very clear and mentions that their is clear distinction between the names and meaning and true worship is to worship the meaning and it should not be only name without meaning or including name along with the meaning, both is tantamount to disbelieve. In the other hadith which you said we discussed it also clearly states (But God is empty of His creatures and His creatures are empty of Him).that there no point of sharing between God and Creation like avatars which is limited in aspect. since the name of God are not God and we don't worship names but the meaning only.

Thanks for your reply My response was from what you stated below What you are saying is the basic principle of God's religion which is tawhid (from prophet Adam a.s till Prophet Mohammed and Imams pbut) and it is being compromised in hinduism and yet it is genuine approach towards God? How Come? is that not shirk? or is shirk prophibited only for certain temperament?

does this implies that accomodating place for this different spiritual temprament is called heaven and hell? why i say that is from what we know is we need to adopt the right approach - hence that approach is termed as sirat mustaqeem. one who chooses wrong approach is for hell or heaven? please clarify.

There is no pleasure for me in scaring you, it was just to highlight that you are presenting the same arguement as wahabi does without understanding the full context, as they are suffering from literalist syndrome and looks the same with you. you qouted different verse earlier and the reposnse was for those verses, you qouted below verse which are for idols or self proclaimed/chosen intercessors but not for God authroized agents, and here is the verse which says the permitted intercession [shakir 10:3] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except aher His permission; this is Allah, your Lord, therefore serve Him; will you not then mind? [Pooya/Ali Commentary 10:3] It is mentioned in the above verse that with His permission intercession is allowed, so the Authorized people can be appraoched not the self chosen ones. and Imams are the chosen ones. and I wonder what made you to ommit the first part of my reply where I talke on wilayah.

The point was to show how it is allowed to seek from wali of Allahs for deliverance of people, what does wilaya means is what Ayatul kursi states that it deliverance of people from darkness towards light. and similarly quran states that wali is Allah, his prophet pbuh and those who pay zakat while in ruku. (all the shia and many sunni commentators have said as per traditions this verse about paying zakat in ruku is for Imam Ali, so wilaya for him is established). before you jump on to say it meant guidance, let me tell you that every kind of zulm(darkness) is difficulty,trouble, distress be it physical, spiritual, mental needs to be resorted to God and in need if one turns towards wali of Allah and true vicegerant of God by understanding that being wali of Allah they are in proximity to God and are held with honor with Allah they can deliver us, although not independently but with the wish of Allah (as chapter of Dahr says that they never wills what Allah doesnt wish). . so you are equating God authorise agents with idols of pagan worship. (wahabi stuff, i should say) yes, and meaning is self explanatory you are denying everything for nonsense as if whole sense is in you, it was the hikmat of Imam Ali a.s which he has asked him to see Imam of the time atfs. read his Bio if you want to clarify before you reject everyting. http://islamicinsights.com/religion/history/muqaddas-ardabili-part-i.html There are many instances where Imam atfs have helped those who sought his recourse.

All the Imams pbut were/are wali of Allah and the purpose of them is to guide/deliver/help people who sought the help from them and since they are representative of God on earth to guide/deliver/help people, how can we not approach them thinking that they poses wilayah of Allah and are authorized from God himself for mankind. The proponents of tawassul does not equate it as horizontal authority but rather a vertical chain of approach. Many incidents for help by Imams are there in history how can people be blind to it and negate it and consider that Imams didnt helped people who sought from them. Infact Imam Musa Kazim a.s is termed as Babul Hawaij(gate of deliverance of desires) as his one of the titles and even Hazrat Abbas has the title of Babul hawaij. Take the incidence of Muqadas Ardabeli who went to najaf to seek the help from Imam Ali a.s on one of the matters and he was adviced to see the Imam of the time (atfs), if Imam Ali is dead how come he responded to muqadas ardabeli