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Topic: Invitation to mumin (Read 6569 times)

Not wishing to disturb the flow of scholarly posts in the present Fate of Man thread, would mumin like to analyze The Creed from his perspective? After all, critiquing Christianity with Koranic posts is hard enough for us unfamiliar with Islam.___________________________________________________________The CreedI believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, through whom all things were made.

For us and for our salvation, He came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and He suffered and was buried.

On the third day He rose according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I expect the resurrection of the dead.

And the life of the age to come. Amen.

________________________________________________________________

I realize that the Triune God is a hard concept to grasp.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

In my experience, I have not met one Muslim who has been able to accurately grasp the concept of the Trinity (insofar as it has been revealed, ofcourse), and hence I have not met one Muslim who does not reject but a misrepresentation of the Trinity that has been conceptualised through the influence of inept polemics launched in Islamic polemical works or indeed in the Qur'an itself.

I remember discussing the Nicean creed with one Muslim who even went so far as to try and argue that it denied the Trinity. He appealed to the first line of the creed where the "one God" is identified with the Father. He simply could not grasp the fact that the term God was being used as an object description to predicate the subject (i.e. the Father) as opposed to being a personal reference exclusively identifying that very subject.

Briefly skimming through the discussion in the 'Fate of Man' thread, it is clear that Mumin has a very confused view of the Trinity himself. The presuppositions underlying his questions---questions such as, "What is the necessity to distinguish [the Holy Spirit] as a separate personhood from Allah Himself?"---evidence this.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 02:09:59 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

First, thank you for the invitation. Let me take I look at this Creed of yours.

[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€ Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â»ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â®ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=9586.msg128799#msg128799 date=1153637463]The CreedI believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.[/quote]

I can agree with this.

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And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, through whom all things were made.

In Al-quraan it is written: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. - Surah 112

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For us and for our salvation, He came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

So much of this is not unlike Pagan Myth and to the Semitic Monotheism is alien and considered the product of later innovations (Bid'dah) as the message of Isa was introduced to the Pagan World and altered by their Philosophies.

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I realize that the Triune God is a hard concept to grasp.

I believe that we (Jews and Muslims) grasp the Christian Trinity we simply don't find it in Judaic nor Islam revelations. Where Roman Culture interpreted 'individuals' of the Godhead we simply recognize it as a mistake of interpretation.

Wa'salaam'alaikum

« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 11:33:44 AM by mumin »

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Whoever hath been given gentleness, hath been given a good portion, in this world and the next. - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

In Al-quraan it is written: He is God, the One and Only;ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š God, the Eternal, Absolute;ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. - Surah 112

In terms of polemical works against the dogma of the Holy Trinity, the Qur’an has to be one of the poorest and most intellectually inept works at that.

When considering the many verses in the Qur’an that concern the idea that the Allah of the Qur’an does not beget or is not begotten, it is quite clear that the intention of the author is to address the Orthodox Christian concept of God which involves the fundamental principle regarding the Father begetting the Son before all ages. The problem with the Qur’an is that the concept of begetting that it attempts to refute is a concept that the author understands in a strictly carnal/physical/literal context. This is absolutely absurd to say the least, for such a context is certainly not in mind when the Orthodox Christian recites the Nicaean Creed, and no less was it in the mind of our Holy Nicaean Fathers who sought to defend and uphold that creed upon its being framed in the first place.

In other words, the author of the Qur’an launches a straw man attack which inevitably leaves us with two possible conclusions to draw concerning that very author: either that author was ignorant, or that author was a liar. Needless to say, either conclusion leaves the author of the Qur’an with a pretty poor resume in their application to be the One True God.

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So much of this is not unlike Pagan Myth

In fact, it is quite unlike any pagan myth; you just need a good dose of honest scholarship to realise that. Where do you plan to start with this one: Osiris, Mithras, or Dionysius? Believe me, you’re bringing nothing new to the table; I have been through all this before many times.

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and to the Semitic Monotheism is alien

And what exactly do you mean by “semitic monotheism”? You’re going to have to explain yourself a little clearer so I know exactly what kind of online articles you’ve been reading.

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and considered the product of later innovations (Bid'dah)

We are not concerned with what is considered, or what is claimed, or what is believed, but only what is. I believe the idea of progressive revelation has already been discussed with you in the thread you initiated elsewhere in this forum. Whilst the concept of the Incarnation was alluded to in the Old Testament, it was explicated in the New Testament, and further expounded by the Holy Fathers of the Church; in other words, it was progressively revealed according to the discretion of God Himself, for His own purposes and according to His own will.

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the message of Isa was introduced to the Pagan World and altered by their Philosophies.

Please notify me when you are ready to engage in reasoned and evidence-based discussion.

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I believe that we (Jews and Muslims) grasp the Christian Trinity

I have read over your posts, Mumin. You evidently do not grasp the basic and fundamental metaphysical concepts necessary to understand the Holy Trinity (insofar as it has been revealed to mankind). You’re not fooling anyone on this site by claiming to understand the Trinity, when those of us who indeed have studied Nicaean Theology can clearly see that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I recommend that you read the dialogue between 13th century Muslim philosopher Al-Waraq, and his Coptic Christian opponent, for a good understanding of how and why Muslims simply do not understand the Concept of God that they purport to reject. I do not have that work before me at this very moment so I will provide you with the reference for it another time.

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we simply don't find it in Judaic nor Islam revelations.

What you do or do not find does not answer the question as to what is or is not there. For the believer in Christ, exegesis of the “Judaic revelations” is subject to Christ who explicitly claimed to embody the very exegesis of the Law, and His Church which was established through His Holy Apostles by His authority.

As far as what can be derived from Islamic “revelations”, that is irrelevant to our understanding of true Christianity. Muhammed was a man who had no historical connection with Christ or His Apostles, and who bears no credibility with respect to his claims to a mythical connection to Christ and the Prophets. Period. Thus, whilst I can understand the concern to consider the Old Testament in our discussions of Christian doctrine, Islamic literature such as the Qur'an or the hadiths bear no relevance to such discussion.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 06:46:45 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I have read over your posts, Mumin. You evidently do not grasp the basic and fundamental metaphysical concepts necessary to understand the Holy Trinity (insofar as it has been revealed to mankind). You’re not fooling anyone on this site by claiming to understand the Trinity, when those of us who indeed have studied Nicaean Theology can clearly see that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I recommend that you read the dialogue between 13th century Muslim philosopher Al-Waraq, and his Coptic Christian opponent, for a good understanding of how and why Muslims simply do not understand the Concept of God that they purport to reject. I do not have that work before me at this very moment so I will provide you with the reference for it another time.

What you do or do not find does not answer the question as to what is or is not there. For the believer in Christ, exegesis of the “Judaic revelations” is subject to Christ who explicitly claimed to embody the very exegesis of the Law, and His Church which was established through His Holy Apostles by His authority.

As far as what can be derived from Islamic “revelations”, that is irrelevant to our understanding of true Christianity. Muhammed was a man who had no historical connection with Christ or His Apostles, and who bears no credibility with respect to his claims to a mythical connection to Christ and the Prophets. Period. Thus, whilst I can understand the concern to consider the Old Testament in our discussions of Christian doctrine, Islamic literature such as the Qur'an or the hadiths bear no relevance to such discussion.

Youre pretty much right here. Most of the Islamic misconception abou the Holy Trinity stems right from the pages of the Qur'an. From right there we already see errors - taking Mary as a god, equating Allah of the Qur'an with purely only the Father of Trinitarianism (thus totally throwing off everything that is believed in Trinitarianism), that we believe that God used a consort to beget Jesus (everything taken in a weird literal sense), etc. etc. It definently gets frustrated trying to dialog with Muslims about the God of All, when from the very beginning they are told something that is erroneous.

I hope that if we do get into Nicene Christianity in this thread, we can all approach it with minds that are true to Trinitarianism. Not tritheism, but truly Trinitarianism - the stuff that is taught by those who composed the Nicene Creed. Nothing fruitful will come of someone attacking a wrongly-concieved notion of a Trinity, and then someone who is defending their conception of the Trinity.

Peace,Ioannis

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I have seen how men of scant means enriched themselves by living with the poor in spirit, and forgot their first poverty. - Holy St. John Climacus

I believe that we (Jews and Muslims) grasp the Christian Trinity we simply don't find it in Judaic nor Islam revelations. Where Roman Culture interpreted 'individuals' of the Godhead we simply recognize it as a mistake of interpretation.

I do not wish to insult mumin, but this is exactly the misconception to which I was referring.

As I ponder his answer using the Quran ( a credo of sorts) to counter another credo just doesn't work, but I do appreciate his involvement, however.AND, I am beginning to see Islam now as yet another form or expression of the earlier Arianism - just 300 years later.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€ Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â»ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â®ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=9586.msg129549#msg129549 date=1154051672]I am beginning to see Islam now as yet another form or expression of the earlier Arianism - just 300 years later.[/quote]And this is why islamic objections to Christianity fall down on their face, because they are using something which Orthodox Christianity rejected as heresy (Arianism) to object to Orthodox (non-heretical) Christianity. Like the Arians, they can't get past the false notion that since Christ Human Nature is created, He cannot have a Divine Nature equal to God- something which the Apostles recognised from the beginning and recorded in the Gospels. Even the Quran contradicts itself on this issue. The Quran recognises that Jesus (Isa) was born from a Virgin- yet what human who is only human was ever born from a Virgin (Mary v20)? If only muslims listened to this advice in the Quran:"And if thou art in doubt concerning that which we reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture that was before thee." Surah Yunus 10:95 ....and the Orthodox Church has studdied the Scriptures for centuries before them.......

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I personally would object to the Arianism-Islam parallel; I think Arianism has a lot more credibility in terms of their ability to interpret the Scriptures.

Although the Arians denied the consubstantiality of the Son to the Father, they could at least recognise from the Scriptures that Christ was in some manner divine. To the Arian, Christ may not have been God's equal, but He certainly was not man's equal for He was evidently superior to all creation (and hence the charge of polytheism being a primary polemic of the Orthodox Fathers).

Islam is the first Christian heresy to reduce Christ to man's equal. The fact that Islamic apologists attempt to defend this position through appeal to the Scriptures proves that their reading comprehension is inferior even to the Arians.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 11:26:24 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

While Islamic Christology is far less evolved and inferior to even the Arians they are not the first Heretical group to deny the Divinity of Christ in any form and reduce him to a mere mortal, for the Ebionites taught the same heresy. Though Ebionism being an early heresy had disappeared by the Synod of Nicea and thus never made any of the ignorant statements the author of the Quran made, whose lack of understanding of even neo-platonic terminology demonstrates his complete incompetence in philosophical and religious matters.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

While Islamic Christology is far less evolved and inferior to even the Arians they are not the first Heretical group to deny the Divinity of Christ in any form and reduce him to a mere mortal, for the Ebionites taught the same heresy. Though Ebionism being an early heresy had disappeared by the Synod of Nicea and thus never made any of the ignorant statements the author of the Quran made, whose lack of understanding of even neo-platonic terminology demonstrates his complete incompetence in philosophical and religious matters.

Is this a result of the "mixing" of a half understanding of Jewish beliefs with a "new" understanding ....Then finally a (misunderstanding) of Christian beliefs?I always thought Islam was a patchwork quilt of sorts... picking things here and there out of this and that to "make up" something new.I have been wrong before, and will be wrong again and again, but that is my underatanding in simple terms. Without having to get verbose.

Is this a result of the "mixing" of a half understanding of Jewish beliefs with a "new" understanding ....Then finally a (misunderstanding) of Christian beliefs?I always thought Islam was a patchwork quilt of sorts... picking things here and there out of this and that to "make up" something new.I have been wrong before, and will be wrong again and again, but that is my underatanding in simple terms. Without having to get verbose.

Various Christian Heretics were exiled to the east and their influence can clearly be seen in Islamic thought, there is also a strong influence of pagan tribal religion, and a fair amount of Semetic monotheism. But ultimately you're right, it is a patchwork of various religions and philosophies...all twisted to the ends of a madman in my opinion.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

While Islamic Christology is far less evolved and inferior to even the Arians they are not the first Heretical group to deny the Divinity of Christ in any form and reduce him to a mere mortal, for the Ebionites taught the same heresy.

True, but keep in mind that the only Scriptures adhered to by the Ebionites were the Old Testament and a distorted Hebraic version of the Gospel of St. Matthew. It has in fact been argued that St. John's Gospel was written specifically for the purpose of countering this particular sect. On the contrary, Muslims affirm the integrity of Christ's Apostles, and hence the Gospels. They even, on occasions, attempt to appeal to the authority of St. John's Gospel to try and prove the prophethood of Muhammed.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 02:45:30 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

True, but keep in mind that the only Scriptures adhered to by the Ebionites were the Old Testament and a distorted Hebraic version of the Gospel of St. Matthew. It has in fact been argued that St. John's Gospel was written specifically for the purpose of countering this particular sect. On the contrary, Muslims affirm the integrity of Christ's Apostles, and hence the Gospels. They even, on occasions, attempt to appeal to the authority of St. John's Gospel to try and prove the prophethood of Muhammed.

Very true and I agree that the Mohammedians are fundamentally different than the Ebionites, who were essentially Jews that were entertained by a few of Christ's teachings though had only minimal respect for who he was.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

While Islamic Christology is far less evolved and inferior to even the Arians they are not the first Heretical group to deny the Divinity of Christ in any form and reduce him to a mere mortal, for the Ebionites taught the same heresy.

But the Ebionites denied the Virgin Birth, which the Muslims do not. This is where the parallel with the Ebionites falls down. The Ebionite Christology at least holds it's own "internal logic" in that they denied even the evidence that the Incarnation had taken place, and were therefore able to "logically" deny the Divinity of Christ. However, Islam denies that Jesus Christ is Divine, while at the same time accepting the evidence that His Incarnation was in fact Divine (i.e. the Virgin Birth). Which is why I think they are closer to the Arian heresy than the Ebionite heresy. And like Arianism, Islam is a bit like a Scientologist with appendicitis- you either have to ignore the evidence or deny your belief or find a compromise between the two. Look at what the Quran says: Jesus fashioned a bird out of clay and breathed life into it (Al-Maaedeh verse 110). Who else but the Creator could possibly do this? Yet despite this and other evidence of His Divinity, the Quran says that Jesus Christ is the greatest creature in heaven and earth, but still a creature- like a Scientologist with appendicitis, or an Arian.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 07:21:13 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Is this a result of the "mixing" of a half understanding of Jewish beliefs with a "new" understanding ....Then finally a (misunderstanding) of Christian beliefs?I always thought Islam was a patchwork quilt of sorts... picking things here and there out of this and that to "make up" something new.I have been wrong before, and will be wrong again and again, but that is my underatanding in simple terms. Without having to get verbose.

I think you are on to something here. Not to insult mumin, but I have always seen Islam in this light. Muhammad was smart and clever. The five pillars seem to me to be a borrowed concept, 1) the first their basic credo, 2) the hadj certainly is nothing new - Christians have been making pilgrimages to the Holy Lands for centuries prior to Islam, 3) charity has Judeo-Christian roots, 4) their prayer rule is an almost exact copy of our daily prayer rule. and 5) their Ramadan has an obvious parallel. Even their prostrations!When I say 'clever' in referring to Muhammad I use as an example his incorporation of the Kaaba into Moslem tradition thereby winning over Mecca.Basically, a cobbled together belief system that worked.

I think the only plausible Christological principle that the Virgin birth establishes is the pre-existence of Christ's person, a principle which the Arians confessed (they in fact confessed Christ to have been existent before all ages and times even, in spite of their denial that He is co-eternal with the Father), though one denied by Muslims. Although we may understand the Virgin birth of Christ to be an attestation to His Divinity from an Orthodox Christian point of view, there is no strict logical connection between Christ being God and His being born of a Virgin. As such, the Islam-Arian parallel still remains without force.

Still, your parallel between Muslims and Scientologists may nonetheless apply if we consider that Islamic Christology involves the contradiction of accepting the Virgin birth of Christ whilst rejecting His pre-existence.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 01:42:24 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I think the only plausible Christological principle that the Virgin birth establishes is the pre-existence of Christ's person, a principle which the Arians confessed (they in fact confessed Christ to have been existent before all ages and times even, in spite of their denial that He is co-eternal with the Father), though one denied by Muslims. Although we may understand the Virgin birth of Christ to be an attestation to His Divinity from an Orthodox Christian point of view, there is no strict logical connection between Christ being God and His being born of a Virgin. As such, the Islam-Arian parallel still remains without force.

Still, your parallel between Muslims and Scientologists may nonetheless apply if we consider that Islamic Christology involves the contradiction of accepting the Virgin birth of Christ whilst rejecting His pre-existence.

I don't know about Scientologists, but I think they resemble Jehovah's Witnesses somewhat. They also hold Jesus in high regard, but define him as a special man, and a man only.

I could be wrong, though.

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My soul waits for the LordMore than those who watch for the morning.Yes, more than those who watch for the morning.

The analogy is actually "A Scientologist with appendicitis"- that is, an adherant to the belief in "Dianetic therapy" with a condition which cannot possibly be cured through "Dianetic therapy", but which requires surgery.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

The analogy is actually "A Scientologist with appendicitis"- that is, an adherant to the belief in "Dianetic therapy" with a condition which cannot possibly be cured through "Dianetic therapy", but which requires surgery.

Ah, I stand corrected then.

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My soul waits for the LordMore than those who watch for the morning.Yes, more than those who watch for the morning.

Very true and I agree that the Mohammedians are fundamentally different than the Ebionites, who were essentially Jews that were entertained by a few of Christ's teachings though had only minimal respect for who he was

Maybe we need to reconsdier this statement by starting by the definition of Islam and what period of Islam we are discussing. Considering there is strong evidence that the mastermind behind Islam was a group of arabic priests/monks from various heretical groups but predominantly Ibonites, and that Muhamed himself was one of them, it could be argued that the start of Islam was Ibonite in nature. It is true that Muhamed, with the help of his masters were not involved in too much dispute about theological issues, because it seems that their main goal was to move beyond the differences and hone the arabic heretical groups together with the jews in a big group that is united in religion and belief. Yet the teachings in Mekkah, before Muhamed immigrated to a rival tribe with the mini group he convinced and who lined up with his ideas, are fundamentally Ibonite. It is more about charity and good deeds rather than theology.

The above is just a point of view, can be disputed or rejected but there are very strong evidence in authentic islamic books and written by fair arabic historian that the above could have been the case, before Muhamed and others realized the potential of the Arabs as a world power and used religion to do so in the most violent way.

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In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

there is no strict logical connection between Christ being God and His being born of a Virgin. As such, the Islam-Arian parallel still remains without force.

Not so. If you read my posts, it is not simply the Virgin Birth which is the problem, but also the fact that the Quran teaches that Isa-al-Masih (Jesus Christ) performed an act of creation by fashioning a bird out of clay and breathing life into it (Sura 5:110) - an event which was recorded centuries before the Quran in the apocryphal Gospels. The problem arises because the Apocryphal Gospel account shows that Christ is God, since fashioning something out of clay and breathing life into it is an act of Creation (like the Creation of Adam in Genesis). In the same way, when Christ healed the man born blind in the Gospel, He spits on the ground and forms mud, because He is not restoring something that once was (since the man never had the use of his eyes), but rather Christ, as Creator, is creating something which did not exist before in the same way that God created Adam out of clay. This bit of evidence of Christ's Divinity found it's way into the Quran along with the evidence of His Pre-existence (the Virgin Birth), which of course, creates a dilemma for Islam, since both of these point to the Divinity of Christ. The answer to the problem for Islam is to say that Jesus is "Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah)"(Al-e-Imran 45) Which is the same as saying "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name; That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" (Phillipians 2:9-10) without actually adding the next verse which says: "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".(Phillipians 2:11)So Islam finds itself in the same situation as Arianism in that Christ is clearly more than simply a man, yet unable to accept that He is fully God. And like Arianism, Islam comes to the same strange compromise that Jesus is the greatest of creatures, but still only a creature- despite the fact that He is Pre-existent and has the power to Create and give life to inanimate objects. Like the Muslims, the Arians also said that Jesus is worthy of the highest regard of every creature on Earth and in Heaven, and like the Arians, the Muslims deny His consubstantiality with God the Father- so there is a clear paralell between Islam and the Arianism, and in fact, Arianism more than likely co-parented Islam along with other heresies.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 07:47:06 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I don't think that is fair to ask of mumin.Most regular posters on OCnet have not been asked to "tell us about themselves", so why should mumin?When did you "tell us about yourself"? If I recall correctly, your first posts were questions regarding the use of gregorian chant, I still don't know much more about you other than the fact that you sing.This is a forum, amd mumin has approached it as such, and has every right to.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 08:51:41 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I don't think that is fair to ask of mumin.Most regular posters on OCnet have not been asked to "tell us about themselves", so why should mumin?When did you "tell us about yourself"? If I recall correctly, your first posts were questions regarding the use of gregorian chant, I still don't know much more about you other than the fact that you sing.This is a forum, amd mumin has approached it as such, and has every right to.

I beg your pardon. My intentions were entirely friendly. Mumin doesn't have to tell us anything if he chooses not to. I was simply curious to know more about him. Is there something wrong with getting to know one another on this board? My impression was that we are a community of friends who discuss Orthodox Christianity. I hope mumin stays around, frankly.

Let us see what it might be like with the foot in the other shoe? Is it reasonable to assume that the whole of the middle-east has been wrong about God All-Mighty (Jews, Muslims, etc) and the Pagans (Romans) East and West are right?

Is it possible that perhaps you are wrong and our religion is a merger of Pagan Mystery Religions with Jewish Scripture as it's backdrop?

Generally speaking this is how the Middle-East sees Christianity. Not as a natural product of Semitic Thought but uniquely Pagan in it's Thought and Philsophy.

What are your thoughts on this?

Wa'alaikum'salaam

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Whoever hath been given gentleness, hath been given a good portion, in this world and the next. - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Is it possible that perhaps you are wrong and our religion is a merger of Pagan Mystery Religions with Jewish Scripture as it's backdrop?

Generally speaking this is how the Middle-East sees Christianity. Not as a natural product of Semitic Thought but uniquely Pagan in it's Thought and Philsophy.

Nope. Christianity is a faith that emerged from a Judaic parent - not a syncretistic pagan-influenced religion. Provide some arguments that would support your premise and perhaps we can get a good discussion going here. However, I think this is dodging the issue since initially we were talking about the origins of Islam, not Christianity.

And "uniquely Pagan"? Again, you need to please substantiate your argument to show that Christianity truly has no ties with Semitic thought and emerges purely from a pagan backdrop.

Peace,Ioannis

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I have seen how men of scant means enriched themselves by living with the poor in spirit, and forgot their first poverty. - Holy St. John Climacus

[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â°ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â½ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â·ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=9586.msg130050#msg130050 date=1154482196]Nope. Christianity is a faith that emerged from a Judaic parent - not a syncretistic pagan-influenced religion. Provide some arguments that would support your premise and perhaps we can get a good discussion going here. However, I think this is dodging the issue since initially we were talking about the origins of Islam, not Christianity.

And "uniquely Pagan"? Again, you need to please substantiate your argument to show that Christianity truly has no ties with Semitic thought and emerges purely from a pagan backdrop.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Peace,Ioannis[/quote]

Salaam,

I am not a lawyer nor am I an apologist. I read al-Quraan and I see what it says and it says that the Trinitrians are to repent of their errors so I ask questions.

To my questions you simply say 'Nope'. What answer is that? What evidences is that? Yet you require me to offer answer and evidence to many numbers of random conjectures?

I see no overwhelming reason to do so. I came seeking the Wisdom of your Community and all that I have found it endless conjecture over doctrine and tradition. Everywhere I look I see no discussion on living a life full of virtue or ways to please God All-Mighty.

Where is the blessings of wisdom from God? Where is the lives and words rich with virtue from God?

Is this the fullness of your faith? debates about doctrines with other Christians and those whom don't agree with you?

I'm wondering.

Wa'alaikum'salaam

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Whoever hath been given gentleness, hath been given a good portion, in this world and the next. - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

To my questions you simply say 'Nope'. What answer is that? What evidences is that? Yet you require me to offer answer and evidence to many numbers of random conjectures?

I see no overwhelming reason to do so. I came seeking the Wisdom of your Community and all that I have found it endless conjecture over doctrine and tradition. Everywhere I look I see no discussion on living a life full of virtue or ways to please God All-Mighty.

Where is the blessings of wisdom from God? Where is the lives and words rich with virtue from God?

Is this the fullness of your faith? debates about doctrines with other Christians and those whom don't agree with you?

Howdy,

My initial response to you was not designed to be a total rebuttal, for you had not provided any examples to support your general statements. The "nope" lets you know where I stand at least. Statements like "pagan mystery religions" and "pagan in thought and philosophy" do not provide enough ground for me to go on a whole tangent about this or that. I understand that at face value, without this clarification, it seems very narrow-minded and simplistic but the main point of my intial response was having you corroborate your allegations. I need substantiation and I kindly asked you for so.

Just because you see us discussing doctrine and theology doesn't mean that Holy Orthodoxy is void of "the blessings of wisdom from God" or contemplation over a virtuous life. The fullness of Orthodoxy cannot be simply experienced online, in a virtual realm. You must go among those who have become like the angels, read and contemplate on the saints, and experience God in truly Orthodox environments to understand these things.

If you want to start a thread on spirituality in Orthodoxy, and to talk about such, then be my guest - make one. But the way this conversation has developed, especially with your comments concerning Christian origins, carries a polemical tone. It is natural that I would react defensively and invite you to discuss your thoughts concerning the said topic.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Is it reasonable to assume that the whole of the middle-east has been wrong about God All-Mighty (Jews, Muslims, etc) and the Pagans (Romans) East and West are right?

Quote

Generally speaking this is how the Middle-East sees Christianity. Not as a natural product of Semitic Thought but uniquely Pagan in it's Thought and Philsophy.

As to Pagan origins, I would say that the Roman Catholic Church has a bit of that. At least in terms of philosophy.

As the Christians of the first-century diaspora spread, they utilized Pagan (Greek) philosophy to reason with the Greek-speaking & -thinking world that their quest for the One, the True, the Beautiful is the Living God of Whom Jesus spoke of. They came to develop systems of reasoning that said that Jesus is the God-Man Who saves all.

The Roman Catholics later made an attempt to 'Christianize' the philosophers (ergo Dante's Inferno, Pergatorio, and Paradiso).

As the Christians of the first-century diaspora spread, they utilized Pagan (Greek) philosophy to reason with the Greek-speaking & -thinking world that their quest for the One, the True, the Beautiful is the Living God of Whom Jesus spoke of.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They came to develop systems of reasoning that said that Jesus is the God-Man Who saves all.

I mentioned that in a post to mumin on another thread:

Quote

Yes, terminology did change over the centuries to articulate the Trinity - but those who pioneered these new terms hardly decided to veer off and change the complete meaning. We find even in the bare scripture that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. They are all seperate of one another maintaining each a hypostasis or personified attribute. And as we all know, Christianity emerged from a strict Jewish monotheism and since the apostles were Jewish, surely they would not worship three gods but One God.

Though I whole-heartedly agree with you that terminology/the way to convey things did change, I'm not so sure that this is what mumin would be talking about. Anyways, we'll just see won't we?

Peace,Ioannis

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I have seen how men of scant means enriched themselves by living with the poor in spirit, and forgot their first poverty. - Holy St. John Climacus

You're still missing the point. Arians believe Christ to have both pre-existed and created the cosmos. Arians do not deny that Christ is God, they simply deny that He is the True God; they do not deny that Christ is divine, they simply deny that He is consubstantial with the Father.

Muslim's on the otherhand, regardless of their acknowledgement of the virgin birth of Christ or the fact he created a bird from clay, do not affirm that He created or pre-existed the cosmos, for the Christ of Islam is merely human.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 05:48:51 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

1) Iuannis's reply to you was perfectly reasonable. You are the one asserting conjectural claims, thus the onus is on you to establish your case with evidence and reason; it is then, and only then, that you can complain about Iuannis copping-out. It's ABC courtroom justice: the defence is not required to act before the prosecution (i.e. the accuser, which in this case would be yourself) establishes its case.

2) Intellectual/Philsophical discourse and debate over doctrinal matters is a significant part of Islamic history, as it is of the history of most of the major religious traditions. Much ink and blood has been spilled in the history of Islam concerning issues such as pre-destination, the metaphysical nature of the Qur'an etc.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 05:40:55 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I read al-Quraan and I see what it says and it says that the Trinitrians are to repent of their errors so I ask questions.

With all due respect, it has already been pointed out to you that you cannot simply counter one credo with another credo. You cannot simply say to Christians "You are wrong because the Quran says so" and expect them to agree. According to the New Testament, you also are wrong because it says:Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)so what has anyone proven here?

To my questions you simply say 'Nope'. What answer is that? What evidences is that? Yet you require me to offer answer and evidence to many numbers of random conjectures?

Random conjectures? I personally have asked you three clear, direct questions in the Fate of Man thread and you didn't answer. So you won't answer direct questions either..... Let me refresh your memory:

If God is not One Essence in three Hypostases, then I have a few questions for you about the pre-Christian Scriptures:1) Why, in the book of Genesis, does God refer to Himself in the plural when speaking of creating Adam?:"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."Genesis 1:26.

2) Who is the "Son of Man" and "Son of God" who keeps appearing in the Old Testament, for example, to the three Holy Youths (Hananiah, Mishael and Azaraiah) in the Firey Furnace Daniel 3:25?

3) In the Holy Prophet Daniel's vision of the Ancient of Days, Who is the "Son of Man" who ascends to Him and is given dominion over all? Daniel 7:13.

well, one overwhelming reason is that you have come here and told us that we are wrong because we worship the Trinity. If you are going to challenge the truth of the God Whom we worship, are we not entitled to ask you to prove your case?

I came seeking the Wisdom of your Community and all that I have found it endless conjecture over doctrine and tradition. Everywhere I look I see no discussion on living a life full of virtue or ways to please God All-Mighty.

So, are you saying that it doesn't matter what doctrine someone believes as long as they are a good person? So is there no difference then between a Muslim or a Christian or an idol worshipper as long as they "live a life full of virtue"? If doctrine doesn't matter, then why do you insist that we are wrong to worship the Holy Trinity? And, before you start casting aspersions on Christians for debating and discussing doctrine, reflect for a minute about what the Sunnis and Shiites are doing to one another.....

Is this the fullness of your faith? debates about doctrines with other Christians and those whom don't agree with you?

We are forbidden to go about proclaiming virtue and good deeds and to make a show of them. The Spiritual life of the Orthodox Christian is hidden; therefore, no one can judge them but God, (not even another Orthodox Christian). And what's more, an Orthodox Christian is forbidden to pass judgement on anybody, even on a non-Orthodox Christian.

So what is it going to be mumin? You came here and told us we are wrong in our Faith, and when we defend it and ask you to prove your case, you cry "unfair" and "unvirtuous".....Come on! Either take responsibility for what you say and be prepared to defend your case with at least some courage of conviction, or simply don't say it, and talk about something else which is harmless like the weather. Don't come here and blaspheme our God and expect us to remain quiet about it.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 08:23:50 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Qu'ran 19-46Abraham's father said to Abraham, "Have you forsaken my GODS, O' Abraham?Unless you stop, I will stone you. Leave me alone."

Just from reading that sentence I'm wondering how you surmise your conclusion. As I understand it extra-biblical legends speak of Abram's 'father' as being a polytheist and Abram destroying all his statues as a rebuke of the veneration of them as idolatry. Is this extra-biblical legend shared in Orthodoxy or Catholicism?

« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 01:54:19 PM by chrisb »

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For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. - Mark 3:35

FYI - I know we are an Orthodox Christian website, but no matter what the official position of the Orthodox Church or our own opinions are, it would probably be better for discussion to just refer to Mumin's holy book as the Qu'ran, etc. We don't say the Latin Heretic Anselm, we'll just say Anselm or the Latin theologian Anselm. I thought the point of this thread was to have an actual discussion from different viewpoints and to not be deliberately polemnical.

FYI - I know we are an Orthodox Christian website, but no matter what the official position of the Orthodox Church or our own opinions are, it would probably be better for discussion to just refer to Mumin's holy book as the Qu'ran, etc.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We don't say the Latin Heretic Anselm, we'll just say Anselm or the Latin theologian Anselm.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I thought the point of this thread was to have an actual discussion from different viewpoints and to not be deliberately polemnical.

Good call, man. Just 'cause we don't agree on dogma doesn't mean we have to add the unnecessary adjectives out of spite.

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

My apologies on the reference I made in regard to your Holy Book Qu'ran.My posting was in error (no excuse) but I was also posting on another board at the same time and must have crossed wires in my thoughts that you had refered to the Holy Scriptures as something- that in fact you had not -but the other poster on the other site did and thus I made the regrettable mistake of attributing it to you.I was not good at multi tasking yesterday!

I bring up that reference in the Qu'ran for a reason, and now it is lost. The reason was to have you explain as Chris did that Abraham's father was in error. But, I would have then asked you to tell me the names of those gods that Abraham's father worshipped. Then, when we see what those names were, we can then see where Allah got his name from.Now, if Allah is so powerful and Almighty, why must he have a name based off a false god?That was going to be my point.Once again, Mumin, I made a mistake and I am very sorry.Peace to you.