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I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?

Respectfully, I strenuously disagree.
This is a pattern and comment on human nature in general, isn't it?
I see what you mean, and it is, in fact, this way. The establishment of standards is a process, is it not? And it is most easily guided or at least strongly influenced by the *LOUDEST* people, or by means of a lack of, or a corrupt leadership. Nature abhors a vacuum. In whatever scenario, there *will* be someone to emerge as leader, and someone to define the standards for the sheeple.
IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. But it will be….for the population-at-large who 'choose' to let 'the program' unfold.....BUT each single person alone has a choice. It has a small voice….almost a whisper. But it is there and every person can ‘hear' it. If you want to. I'm just passing through, but seems to me, the best in the world is built from the contributions of people unafraid to stand alone. Those unafraid to believe in themselves, to search out, to point a better way. To point to the truth, or essence of the thing, IOW. The truth is divisive and people will, in general, seek to hear that which ‘tickles their ears.' That's so much more pleasant! And easy.
There is a reason mob-mentality is to be feared. There is a reason there are phrases like "On average, people are average', and "The masses are asses". There is also a phenomenon of population-inversion that can take place in things like this, where subjectivity and judgment are involved; it is involved with both groupthink and the fear of being mocked (i.e. the shame of man). When population inversion has been achieved, nonsense becomes the standard. Black is white, up is down, and evil is good. And all is lost. When this happens, the fall is near. At that point sanity and clear thinking is the exception and not the rule. And there are many MANY examples of this pattern playing out throughout humankind. This is a reason humans have doomed themselves to cyclical patterns throughout history…. It is a big complex mess tied in with leadership, judgment, politics, fear, E-G-O, investment, materialism, laziness, and on and on and on.

I don't know about all those reasons I mention, and I am certainly no leader, but I find myself thinking about these things a lot. And in fact, more and more each day.

Quote:

I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?

IT SHOULD NOT! Every man stands alone.

For the thread, and to the OP, Sy,
I would suggest, you, as politely as possible PM, Dan, Ellis and Howard Popkin to see if they can and will point you a dojo in your country/state/province/etc and go see for yourself. It is the only answer that will satisfy you, in the end.

And in the meantime; I would suggest to you that there are many different ways of attacking the body…and maybe…just maybe…the ‘magic' you ask about is real; and learnable. If you can find the right teacher. There are, of course, coarse joint-twisting, muscle ripping, etc…and on the other end of the spectrum… there are ways of more subtly manipulating imbalances in the body. Like that Atari vid you threw up. That was an extreme demo to illustrate a principle. Attacking ‘inside' the body of uke via a manipulation of imbalances and a lack of development (i.e. or willful opening)
Randomly yours,
Josh

What I actually *disagree* with is the idea of addressing of the 'crowds'. The 'crowds' are what you see. The individuals are who hear. I assure you they are there. I, for one, am grateful for the people who speak up, with their best, like you Dan, and you Ellis, and you Kevin, just here, in this thread alone.

William, I guarantee they are out there in So Cal...you just don't know where to find them! They are everywhere my friend!

The problem is if you go to their seminar you really are agreeing to play by their rules implicitly, so IMO, it becomes difficult and a little wrong to go in with an agenda to screw with them.

I think the best thing to do is either go, be polite and train with an open mind...or don't go at all.

I haven't been to a seminar yet that I either don't agree with everything they are doing, or I don't understand completely. However I am pretty good about the seminars I do go to, so I usually get alot out of going!

That said, based on the Youtube vids shown here...not to bad mouth anyone, but I have not felt compelled to seek any of these guys out based on the vids.

Not my experience Kevin. I have been to allot of Seminars and I always show respect However...If the Sensei is a fraud or full of him/herself Both of us will know the second we step on the mat...

We invite everyone to come to Kenji Yoshida's Seminars and get a good mix of other Arts....

I remember the year before last there was a nice older Chinese Lady who came with her daughter to watch the Seminar...She watched her grandchild while her daughter practiced...On Sunday as we were wrapping it up she mentioned she was a long time practitioner of both Bau Gua (Spelling?) and Chi Quong. Yoshida Sensei politely asked her to share a little bit of what she knew...
In a phrase... she blew our minds with her little Demo... Her power and execution were awe inspiring

Just goes to show you that you never know who is truly watching.

Frauds do not last long out here in SoCali. Not with guys like Gene Lebell The Gracies Bas Ruttan and hundreds of other legit serious Martial Artists and their students...

With the advent of You Tube hopefully they won't last long anywhere else either.

LOL No dude I meant why don't we have some of these dudes on the West Coast I would love to have a bit of fun being overwhelmed by Soke Fireballs and stuff...But alas... All the 10 Dans are located elsewhere...Must be something to do with So Cal being a Mecca of Real No BS Martial Arts .

William Hazen

Oh! You are just looking under the wrong rocks my friend. Just follow the smoke and you will find the fireballs on the west coast.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

To return to the subject
This man doesn't know aikijujutsu. He has "hosted" (ahh that lovely role) two legitimate teachers of aikijujutsu, and that is where his involvement ends. I have stood in his dojo on several occasions. I could discuss his history and approach to the arts, his skill level and his lineage, but I find it disingenuous for a community to "welcome" discussions of people like him, without discussing the antics of other legitimate teachers who are equally inept, or are abusers, or who simply can't teach.

Any given community defines what they all can agree is a laughing stock and what is martial arts. At the end of the day, is it best to not say anything and let the community waste a lot of valuable time, or be sent to the hospital for making a "perceived" insult to a teacher they didn't see? Or do you stand up and call it for what it is or call a teacher out for abusing people? I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?
Cheers
Dan

For some reason I sense this directed at my comments. If not then I beg your pardon.

I have not been in this game long enough to be exposed to enough frauds to be able to call out the ones that others seem to be aware of .. maybe if there was a list somewhere of frauds. I have not been in TA's dojo but I did buy some tapes from him and I then found out some of the history behind them. Viewing the tapes it is clear that he has not changed much in the last 30 years and that 'aiki' youtube is simply goofy to my eyes - I suppose five generations of shame is good enough. I've got no problem calling BS and I expect others to call it on me - I regularly ask those I train with to please not fall down like they have been but at least keep their balance until they have to fall. If I was abused at a seminar I would file charges (I'm pretty squirrley so I hope it would not result in injury - to me at least). I would and have definately told folks to stop doing what they were doing because it is too dangerous - I never got the impression that it ws intentional (I'm sure that happens).

Now this fellow I have trained with at a seminar (some one elses seminar - no need to drag them into it) on at least two different years and I certainly never felt anything that I would consider aiki (even if one is not supposed to be able to feel it) or special in any other way. As he seems to claim to teach aiki either he was not using it at the time or he has got nothing to show that is of any interest to me. No fire balls either ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Hello Rob (hope you don't mind the first name use)
No, I meant it in a general sense only.
Everyone critiques the obvious bozos and ner-do-wells of budo by the building of a consensus among an established community. There are quite a few "communities" out there, aren't there? And there is also one in every forum on the web.

If we can't critique and examine the movement of established teachers in the martial arts without "offending" people, then I am no longer willing to critique some lesser guy just to fit in to the "club" and have a laugh. I don't see an *honest* means to resolve that other than to not respond at all. Otherwise I would have to lie.
Case in point Rob, What would you say to me stating that: "Tony A is as good as Saotome."
Do you have a problem with that?
Do you disagree?
Prove it?
How will you make the case______________?
By concensus!
Every teacher; TMA or bozos, have fans and loyal students all their own, who all see something magical in their sensei, so there ya go. Unfortunately none of that helps anyone at all.....on the web.
So you have to continue to dig around behind the scenes and look for a different more candid consensus, just like it always was.
Cheers
Dan

Oh! You are just looking under the wrong rocks my friend. Just follow the smoke and you will find the fireballs on the west coast.

Actually I think you made my point... For a fraud to survive long in SoCali he/she would have to hide under a rock...

Heck So Cal Aikido is still dealing with the Gene LeBell choking out Steven Seagal in about 30 Seconds meme almost 20 years after it happened LOL I still get all these wry looks anytime I am in a mixed group of Martial Arts Folks and Aikido comes up in our discussion.

I have felt a few Aiki-Jujutsu folks over the years and the only ones that impressed me were East Coasters (and of course Colorado's own Sensei Threadgill Awesome human being he is )... I can't think of the teachers name ( Sensei Professor Moses???) but I guess he tweaked some things in Aikijujutsu and has(had?) a school in Harlem or Brooklyn. Maybe Howard Popkin knows him?

To make a long story short One of his Senior Students lives here in Malibu is in his mid 60's and is as lean and muscular as a cobra. He tours the country teaching arrest and pain control techniques to LEA's and runs a certified organic farm. When this guy gets a hold of you you feel it. You're not getting out of it until he lets you go and man his Atemi OUCH! I have bugged him over the years to teach us but he never spends enough time at home. He's always traveling. Just last weekend I bumped into him again at the Malibu Garden Center and at 63 years old he can do full extension pushups with ease and his Aiki is as solid as a rock.

For the thread, and to the OP, Sy,I would suggest, you, as politely as possible PM, Dan, Ellis and Howard Popkin to see if they can and will point you a dojo in your country/state/province/etc and go see for yourself. It is the only answer that will satisfy you, in the end.

I might do just that. =) That said, I'm still quite happy to have opened up this discussion though. I had no intentions of making this a DR/TMA/ki fireball bash fest. Starting as a skeptic myself, after experiencing hints of aiki in the last year of training, I thought that there must've been something else I've been missing, perhaps out of stubbornness or ignorance. This thread appeared to be a bit of reality check, which wasn't what I hoped to find, but useful to realise nonetheless.

Quote:

And in the meantime; I would suggest to you that there are many different ways of attacking the body…and maybe…just maybe…the ‘magic' you ask about is real; and learnable. If you can find the right teacher.

I'm lucky to have teachers and a group that are very good to train with. Although I'm a little ambitious and hasty, there's still plenty to learn at my dojo. But I'm sure I can use what I've gleaned here in the discussion to build a better/more realistic base for my further explorations down the track.

In the meantime, I'll go PM the people you suggested in a bit just to pick their brains anyway. cheers mate.

Hello Rob (hope you don't mind the first name use)
No, I meant it in a general sense only.
Everyone critiques the obvious bozos and ner-do-wells of budo by the building of a consensus among an established community. There are quite a few "communities" out there, aren't there? And there is also one in every forum on the web.

If we can't critique and examine the movement of established teachers in the martial arts without "offending" people, then I am no longer willing to critique some lesser guy just to fit in to the "club" and have a laugh. I don't see an *honest* means to resolve that other than to not respond at all. Otherwise I would have to lie.
Case in point Rob, What would you say to me stating that: "Tony A is as good as Saotome."
Do you have a problem with that?
Do you disagree?
Prove it?
How will you make the case______________?
By concensus!
Every teacher; TMA or bozos, have fans and loyal students all their own, who all see something magical in their sensei, so there ya go. Unfortunately none of that helps anyone at all.....on the web.
So you have to continue to dig around behind the scenes and look for a different more candid consensus, just like it always was.
Cheers
Dan

"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. ... Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. ... If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period. "

It does no one any good to claim consensus unless the issue is merely political. I assume the issue is NOT merely political so a different standard might be advisable.

IMO, trying to find definitive answers to the validity of someone's expertise based on videos from armchair experts in the cyper space community, who are full of internal disillusions of their own capabilities, will get you no where - although there are people out there that know what they are talking about, you will need to filter out who they are from those that do not.

As mentioned many, many times; by many, many people in these threads, the only way to find the answer is to get out and feel these experts yourself, or get with someone else with a direct connection to them - period!

To find out who these people may be, try doing a little research on this site as well as other MA sites that have forums with threads related to what you want to know. After reading the threads, you should be able to determine who may have more info that may help you. As someone else mentioned, send a polite PM to these people - you may be surprised at the level of helpfulness you get from them based on the level of your sincerity.

No, I meant it in a general sense only.
Everyone critiques the obvious bozos and ner-do-wells of budo by the building of a consensus among an established community. There are quite a few "communities" out there, aren't there? And there is also one in every forum on the web.

If we can't critique and examine the movement of established teachers in the martial arts without "offending" people, then I am no longer willing to critique some lesser guy just to fit in to the "club" and have a laugh. I don't see an *honest* means to resolve that other than to not respond at all. Otherwise I would have to lie.

I got ya. Take the high road. Some of us do tend to find ourselves dragging parts in the gutter while well meaning but lacking a bit of aplumb and decorum. I do tend towards the bull in the china shop on ocassion ... I do have to say that fitting into the 'club' has never been of any interest to me so that part of it does not ring true to me and I'm certainly no alone on that point either.

I don't mind offending folks (some can't help but be offended) if the criticism is well intentioned. Simply asking a question should not evoke rancor. If it does then one tends to have the answer they need without actually getting a direct answer to ones question.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Case in point Rob, What would you say to me stating that: "Tony A is as good as Saotome."
Do you have a problem with that?
Do you disagree?
Prove it?
How will you make the case______________?
By concensus!
Every teacher; TMA or bozos, have fans and loyal students all their own, who all see something magical in their sensei, so there ya go. Unfortunately none of that helps anyone at all.....on the web.
So you have to continue to dig around behind the scenes and look for a different more candid consensus, just like it always was.
Cheers
Dan

I originally had a great verbose reply but instead I'd opt not to make direct comparisons. Instead: Does 'A' have what I'm looking for? Does 'B' have what I'm looking for? Not so much is 'A' better than 'B'?

Do I have a problem with that? Nope.

Do I disagree? Yup.

Of course Tony A has got nothing on Saotome ( I know , I just made a direct comparison). Prove it? I don't feel a compelling need to ... Besides, it would depend more on what you would accept as proof than anything I'd have to offer. I don't think '4 out of 5 dentists' would cut the mustard.

Make the case? I'm only going on the vids I've seen of both and have no first hand experience of Tony A or Saotome. If you are going to claim that my assessments are colored by consensus (I don't think they are) then I got nothing. Bald faced (despite the goatee) assertion will be my MO!

Trying to bring this back around to the OT ... I certainly have seen and experienced dive bunnies but never saw anybody flop around like the DR guys referenced. Any diving I saw was mostly from folks that really didn't know any better - they kind of thought they were supposed to (resistance=conflict=bad, etc) until I tried to explain to them a better way. Some have come around but some have not. Never have I experienced anybody gyrating themselves into positions like those on the Tony A youtube either.

If somebody starts flopping around like that for me I'd call an ambulance because that is sure signs of brain damage 'round these parts.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

[...but I find it disingenuous for a community to "welcome" discussions of people like him, without discussing the antics of other legitimate teachers who are equally inept, or are abusers, or who simply can't teach.

I would very much like to see the latter as the former needs no such exposure-it is already plain to see. But I also enjoy kicking hornets nests ... However, I can't explain the Dillman or Jukokai stuff - must be something in the water.

The damage done to the arts by the former is limited (still may be substantial) but the latter is a greater sin.

The ground rules would need to be clearly stated and rigouously upheld or there is no point. Even then it will get ugly quickly.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

All good points worth considering Dan. Went to a seminar with one Dilman's protege's years ago.

The problem I ran into was as much as I really wanted to screw with they guy, there was a room full of folks that really wanted to believe it. Some of them were friends of mine.

Training was contextual and controlled. I was not really in a position to screw around with them too much as I would have really looked like a dick and I believe it would have caused more trouble than good.

So I politely screwed around a little, enough to figure it out and invalidate it for my own use, then never bothered to go back.

If the masses want to believe in it...I say let them, I found out I wasn't gonna convinced them otherwise.

So here's the problem I have.
The teacher says he has no idea why the students are doing what they are doing. So why is he letting it happen? Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"
Me, I'd be running, or at least saying, "What the hell are you doing?"
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation. Your dead grandmother is ashamed she gave birth to your mother who gave birth to you!"

Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!
Ellis Amdur

THis has got to be the funniest post on Aikiweb I've ever read. Now how do I get rid of the image in my head?

So here's the problem I have.
The teacher says he has no idea why the students are doing what they are doing. So why is he letting it happen? Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"
Me, I'd be running, or at least saying, "What the hell are you doing?"
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation. Your dead grandmother is ashamed she gave birth to your mother who gave birth to you!"

Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!
Ellis Amdur

Ellis:

Have you not learned the art of "No Touch Orgasm"? How else do you think that immaculate conception occurs?