I'm talking about these sandbox mmorpg's that have open pvp + full loot.. NOT like darkfall online.. that's a pvp mmo.. not sandbox.
PKs (wolfs) need sheep (miners, PvMers etc) to kill.. It's what they enjoy.

I know it's a niche majority of players and possibly not the type of mmorpg you should make if you want money.
I'm not planning on anyhting like this.. it's just something i keep thinking about..

But can a game like this really work anylonger?

Think of multiplayer games where there's no official server everyone has to play on..
Take minecraft for example.
Theres a different type of server for every different type of player.
It splits the sheep and wolf into different servers.
So PKs will not enjoy minecraft.

It's same thing with mmorpg's..
Ultima Online and other similar games at that time was great because it was new and leading in the mmorpg genre.
But later when mmorpg's came that were designed for the sheep.. they moved to those instead... WoW for example.

Games have tried to make new openpvp+full loot games like UO.. but failed because of this..
Sheep have lots of different mmorpg's to pick between.. they don't have to play on the wolfs mmorpg.
Sheep don't have to play on wolfs minecraft servers.

Even if the wolf mmorpg's design a lot of attractive content for sheep.. with rainbows and terraforming, crafting big monster bosses etc..
THere's other sheep mmorpg's out there that have it as well.. maybe not exactly the same features but also fun ones.

Take minecraft for example.Theres a different type of server for every different type of player.It splits the sheep and wolf into different servers.So PKs will not enjoy minecraft.

The problem is that your "wolves" are not wolves, but hyenas. They do not want PvP, they're cowards that attack the weak, scavengers at best. All they do is grief. Attacking and killing people who are not interested in PvP is stupid wannabe loser stuff, but it is not PvP.

Real PvPers do not want sheep, they want people who are interested in PvP as well. People who fight back and who are worthy adversaries. If you don't risk being killed yourself and losing your stuff, it's no challenge, no fun, and nothing heroic.

What's the point in killing someone who has no weapon and is not wearing armour while they're bent over digging in the earth? Where is honour in that, where is challenge? Why would one figuratively want to have a reputation as a murderer of children?

Take minecraft for example.Theres a different type of server for every different type of player.It splits the sheep and wolf into different servers.So PKs will not enjoy minecraft.

The problem is that your "wolves" are not wolves, but hyenas. They do not want PvP, they're cowards that attack the weak, scavengers at best. All they do is grief. Attacking and killing people who are not interested in PvP is stupid wannabe loser stuff, but it is not PvP.

Real PvPers do not want sheep, they want people who are interested in PvP as well. People who fight back and who are worthy adversaries. If you don't risk being killed yourself and losing your stuff, it's no challenge, no fun, and nothing heroic.

What's the point in killing someone who has no weapon and is not wearing armour while they're bent over digging in the earth? Where is honour in that, where is challenge? Why would one figuratively want to have a reputation as a murderer of children?

You're wrong in your assumption.. also offtopic imo..It's not a topic to discuss what playstyle if more fun or why players do what they do.

This topic is about if there is any hope of these wolfs/Pks to find a open pvp + full loot + sandbox mmorpg that has sheep in it as well.I don't believe there is.. And even though it's a niche playertype we're talking about... it's still very huge..There's so many players going around dreaming and hoping and waiting for a game like this, testing out the ones that come out.. but quit because it's not what it used to be..Because now there's too many other games/servers for sheep to play.. unlike how it used to be.

I think it's time to either end their hopes and dreams of finding a game like this.. so they can either quit gaming or try and learn how to enjoy other styles of gaming.OR.. find out how it would be possible for a game like this to be created.

I would imagine that you would have to make it so that the wolf has different tricks which he must effectively utilize to get the sheep, but the sheep must also have his own tricks for running away. There should be various skills, varied akin to the variance of skills in moba games (there is a wide variety of skills and spells which all do something different and can lead to emergent strategies which were not intended).

Free for all PvP does not currently have a place in the MMORPG world, but there will be games that are creative with the restrictions put into place that make a semi-FFA PvP game possible.

Currently if I had my druthers there would be faction PvP and stealing/crimes(not murder). If you become flagged a criminal you can be attacked by any other player so it is the criminal that becomes the hunted, not the innocent players. You could have several different "crimes" for players to commit at their own disgression. This is the true PvPer's last hope and I haven't found anyone to support it yet. Either the PvPer can hunt criminals, or be a criminal themself, and fight off anyone that dares to attack them.

If you remove FFA PvP I believe full loot can still be possible for MMOs as your so called "sheep"(not the nicest/most accurate term ever) would be free from being murdered so they wouldn't be ganked/griefed for their gear without any reprecussion.

What you are really talking about is in game murder that gets very close to griefing, if you want to support that kind of "gameplay" you have to find a way to make it fun for the victim

Basically you need to:
1) Allow the "Sheep" to choose when to put themselves as risk. (Having free pvp everywhere is a bad idea)
2) Reward the "Sheep" for playing the "Sheep" role, (i.e , putting a non combat oriented character in harms way)
3) Keep the cost of losing small. (Don't mix wow style equipment farming with free loot pvp).
4) Give combat oriented characters a reason to hunt down murderers or protect the "Sheep" in a way that isn't exploitable, (Most bounty systems fail because the murderers tend let their friends kill them for the bounty, you'd need a better system)

My suggestions are:

1) Don't have free pvp everywhere, keep the some/half/most areas safe.
2) Make it rewarding to gather resources (a task that shouldn't be possible with a purely combat oriented character) in the pvp zones, (more or higher quality resources)
3) Make it possible for guilds or factions to control land in the pvp zones, (build guardposts, hire npc guards, etc) and fight for resource control, (This pushes the "wolves" towards a bandit ,commando or mercenary role)

Edited by SimonForsman, 25 July 2012 - 12:55 AM.

I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it.The voices in my head may not be real, but they have some good ideas!

What you are really talking about is in game murder that gets very close to griefing, if you want to support that kind of "gameplay" you have to find a way to make it fun for the victim

Basically you need to:1) Allow the "Sheep" to choose when to put themselves as risk. (Having free pvp everywhere is a bad idea)2) Reward the "Sheep" for playing the "Sheep" role, (i.e , putting a non combat oriented character in harms way)3) Keep the cost of losing small. (Don't mix wow style equipment farming with free loot pvp).4) Give combat oriented characters a reason to hunt down murderers or protect the "Sheep" in a way that isn't exploitable, (Most bounty systems fail because the murderers tend let their friends kill them for the bounty, you'd need a better system)

My suggestions are:

1) Don't have free pvp everywhere, keep the some/half/most areas safe.2) Make it rewarding to gather resources (a task that shouldn't be possible with a purely combat oriented character) in the pvp zones, (more or higher quality resources)3) Make it possible for guilds or factions to control land in the pvp zones, (build guardposts, hire npc guards, etc) and fight for resource control, (This pushes the "wolves" towards a bandit ,commando or mercenary role)

Good post, But PvP zones is something I really hate.. it gives the illusion of open pvp in the game.. but its still voluntary.. means sheep can avoid it.It's what UO did by creating felucca.. and then everyone stopped playing the game even the PKs.

1. This means it's not open pvp anymore.. pvp zones with open pvp is not open pvp.. its ffa pvp.. the game is not open pvp if it has pvp zones.2. The reward is that they can play the game and do what they like.. hunting monsters or whatever.3. Cost of losing should matter or else what's the point of death penalty.. it's supposed to be a strong motivation for not dying and a punishment if you do. Even in a game like wow it would work.. perhaps not full loot.. well even full loot would work for me but probably not for most.. but you can also just drop a random piece of armor. and you don't HAVE to wear the most epic hard to get armor on you.. you can just put it in the bank and put on something easier to get but still decent when doing something you're not confident in surviving. The better PvPers who are confident in their skills can wear more expensive armor since they loot it from victims and die less often. Battlegrounds wouldn't be a good idea anymore with death penalties though.4. There's a lot of shepards (pvpers that love sheep) in games, they will protect sheep free of charge, and also because they want to fight against PKs. There's even anti-pk guilds. It's easy to get some help from them if you're a sheep. If you design the game well in all details then it would even be worth it for the sheep to hire a shepard or two as bodyguards to protect him while he is hunting monsters for example. Just have to make sure that he earns more from hunting than he pays for the bodyguards.' You can also ofcourse just improve your skills so you can defend yourself or prepare yourself with items that help you survive and be able to escape from the PK. And this is just basics too, You can make some more advanced features too for the game depending what kind of game it will be. Maybe if you have good AI in your game you can let them hire npc guards that follow you.. but if you have any murder counts then you cant hire them. Maybe some traps that you set up behind you that PK will have to disarm/set off before reaching you.. giving you some time to prepare yourself or run if there's a second exit.

I really don't understand why everyone can't play in a game like this... everyone has their role in a game like this.

let's say you join after 6 months since the game's launch, your ganna be at such a stupid handicap compared to most other players. anyone can just kill you for the lol of it.

unless your seriously high level, and can adequately defend yourself, i just don't see it being fun to be killed if someone just feels like it.

If it could be done, it would have been done, It's not like developers don't toy around with the idea, it's just, you look at it from any newbie's PoV and your totally screwed, which drives people from the game.

edit:as well, if the world is full pvp, you can't even go into town, what your hoping for is that from the chaos, order will come, but this is a game, with no real world consequences, so it'll most likly never happen.

I really don't understand why everyone can't play in a game like this... everyone has their role in a game like this.

As Samoth and SimonForsman mentioned above, it's not really fun for the victims. Why should I play on a PVP minecraft server if I just want to build a castle? I could build the same castle on a PVE server and not have to worry about some "wolf" coming around and flooding it with magma or murdering me while I build a wall. There's no benefit for me to expose myself like that.

I have a proposed solution:Assume a space trading / combat game.

There are centers of NPC (or player) faction power with starbases, fleets, etc.These centers are separated by lawless space.The non-combatant players in this scenario would be traders, making profit by moving goods between starbases. There is a little profit in moving goods around secured space, but more profit for moving through lawless space.The "wolves" can freely move around lawless space, but due to killing merchants they are hostile to the NPC factions and cannot enter their space without risking attack.

This is something of a combination of SimonForsman and Caldenfor's ideas, and could probably be adapted to other settings without too much trouble. I think it's as close as you could get to your idea while maintaining a fun environment for everyone involved.

DayZ is in this niche, of sandbox MMO with the (arguably unfair) ability for "wolf" players to prey on "sheep" players. It also makes this really, really painful for the "sheep" by using a "perma-death" system.There are private servers for "sheep" to hide on, but they get blacklisted and shut down.

You can say that this is no fun for the victims of unfair PvP ownage (and yes, it is an incredibly frustrating, painful and emotive game)... but the fact is that their player base has exploded from originally about 100 testers to (as of today) 856874 testers (and growing by about 10000/day), while still in a really buggy "Alpha test" state!

DayZ is in this niche, of sandbox MMO with the (arguably unfair) ability for "wolf" players to prey on "sheep" players. It also makes this really, really painful for the "sheep" by using a "perma-death" system.There are private servers for "sheep" to hide on, but they get blacklisted and shut down.

You can say that this is no fun for the victims of unfair PvP ownage (and yes, it is an incredibly frustrating, painful and emotive game)... but the fact is that their player base has exploded from originally about 100 testers to (as of today) 856874 testers (and growing by about 10000/day), while still in a really buggy "Alpha test" state!

...Largely because no one else is attending to this niche market.

That mod seems fun but it's easily cheated.Just google for cheats for that mod.. light hacks... aimbots.. remove any objects like trees that you can hide behind.

I wonder how that mod became so successful tho.. being perma death and open pvp.. doesnt make sense!

I really don't understand why everyone can't play in a game like this... everyone has their role in a game like this.

As Samoth and SimonForsman mentioned above, it's not really fun for the victims. Why should I play on a PVP minecraft server if I just want to build a castle? I could build the same castle on a PVE server and not have to worry about some "wolf" coming around and flooding it with magma or murdering me while I build a wall. There's no benefit for me to expose myself like that.

Isn't minecraft in basics a survival game?All sheep seem to love and enjoy playing the survival game against the monsters (npcs).Same thing in Terraria.. and in terrarria there can even appear uber flying omgwtfbbq boss monsters that teleport into your base through all your walls and fart doom missiles out of their asses chasing you around... sheep love that... playing survival against monsters.But if it's a player that tries to kill them they shut the game down lol.... I really don't understand how these players are thinking.It's also more fun playing suvival against players because they're all unique.. thinking differently... doing things differently.. not like bots.Some players are bad... some are good... I'm pretty sure that some sheep would even be able to kill the PK if he had the guts to defend himself

I would suggest letting sheep band together or hire others for protection at the cost of some resources. I would also suggest letting sheep make traps and whatnot everywhere at the cost of making resource-obtaining a little slower and more bothersome.

minecraft is a game with various game modes. ranging from survival to building to custom adventure.

the only thing you are proving in this thread is that you've a extremely closed mind.

people don't want to die for players without other option.

if you die to a monster, you asked for it. you exposed yourself to the monster knowing their power. it's entirely your fault.

if you die for a wolf, this wolf probably lured you. probably this wolf also has better weapons than you and you don't have any chance of knowing this wolf power.

players accept the outcome of their actions, but do not accept being killed just because a wolf wanted to kill him.

If you mean power as in the strength of the character..MOST games let you see how powerful it is.. by seeing what level it is.If its a skillbased game you can get an idea by perhaps what armor he is wearing.It's really depends on the game.A lot of games you can see the armor he wears.. so you can know if its epics or garbage.Also if there is a cap in lvl/skills then you know they cant be stronger than that.

If you mean how good the player is..Then you are probably not good enough to fight him if you dont know.Then you should think about surviving instead of defending.

and in terrarria and minecraft.. you can't choose to fight monsters..It's a crafting/terraforming game where monsters come to fight you... you dont go and fight them.Its not optional.The only thing with the monsters is that you know 100% how they fight...every move they will make..etc.. you know you will win if you dont make a mistake.And actually that's how I look at PvP too.. I look at other players the same way you look at monsters.

Isn't minecraft in basics a survival game?All sheep seem to love and enjoy playing the survival game against the monsters (npcs).Same thing in Terraria.. and in terrarria there can even appear uber flying omgwtfbbq boss monsters that teleport into your base through all your walls and fart doom missiles out of their asses chasing you around... sheep love that... playing survival against monsters.But if it's a player that tries to kill them they shut the game down lol.... I really don't understand how these players are thinking.It's also more fun playing suvival against players because they're all unique.. thinking differently... doing things differently.. not like bots.Some players are bad... some are good... I'm pretty sure that some sheep would even be able to kill the PK if he had the guts to defend himself

Are you trolling glhf?You need to recognise that there is a huge difference between playing (co-op) survival against AIs and players. The players know they're just having fun playing a game against AIs with little consequence, it's just how the game is played. But to know that there's players out there stalking you with malicious intent puts a certain amount of pressure on the player. Players that play games to relax and have fun don't enjoy that pressure.If you add the ability to loot slain players that's going to drastically increase that pressure by adding consequences if they die.

If you're not trolling here's a more elaborate answer.Reckon it could work if done right and you're willing to compromise; you can't have the cake and eat it at the same time.

Only MMO's I've played are WoW and EVE online. EVE comes rather close to what you describe in my head at least, aside from the full loot thing. In EVE it seems to be working because you can change roles, maybe not from the get-go, but given a bit of time you can simply swap between playing wolf and sheep. Also the items in the game are given less weight than say WoW and considerably more availability.Should you lose you're gear you can buy new gear off the market, provided you have the money.

If you want full loot you'd have to go even further and reduce the weight and impact of gear and items and see to it that replacement items are relatively easy to come by. Absolutely no diablo-esque drop system that requires astronomical amounts of time to grind and farm random items. EVE does this by letting players massproduce items and sell on the market.

Isn't minecraft in basics a survival game?All sheep seem to love and enjoy playing the survival game against the monsters (npcs).Same thing in Terraria.. and in terrarria there can even appear uber flying omgwtfbbq boss monsters that teleport into your base through all your walls and fart doom missiles out of their asses chasing you around... sheep love that... playing survival against monsters.But if it's a player that tries to kill them they shut the game down lol.... I really don't understand how these players are thinking.It's also more fun playing suvival against players because they're all unique.. thinking differently... doing things differently.. not like bots.Some players are bad... some are good... I'm pretty sure that some sheep would even be able to kill the PK if he had the guts to defend himself

Are you trolling glhf?You need to recognise that there is a huge difference between playing (co-op) survival against AIs and players. The players know they're just having fun playing a game against AIs with little consequence, it's just how the game is played. But to know that there's players out there stalking you with malicious intent puts a certain amount of pressure on the player. Players that play games to relax and have fun don't enjoy that pressure.If you add the ability to loot slain players that's going to drastically increase that pressure by adding consequences if they die.

If you're not trolling here's a more elaborate answer.Reckon it could work if done right and you're willing to compromise; you can't have the cake and eat it at the same time.

Only MMO's I've played are WoW and EVE online. EVE comes rather close to what you describe in my head at least, aside from the full loot thing. In EVE it seems to be working because you can change roles, maybe not from the get-go, but given a bit of time you can simply swap between playing wolf and sheep. Also the items in the game are given less weight than say WoW and considerably more availability.Should you lose you're gear you can buy new gear off the market, provided you have the money.

If you want full loot you'd have to go even further and reduce the weight and impact of gear and items and see to it that replacement items are relatively easy to come by. Absolutely no diablo-esque drop system that requires astronomical amounts of time to grind and farm random items. EVE does this by letting players massproduce items and sell on the market.

The death penalty can be as big as the players can handle.And in wow for example.. Like I said previously.. you dont HAVE to go outside town (guarded area) with the best gear in the game.. There's lots of gear you can buy in WoW AH.. you can stock up as much as you like. The better and less common the gear is the more expensive.. so it's the players choice if they want decent/weak armor so they don't lose as much when dying.. or good/powerful armor and also lose more if they die.

But in ultima online for example... what u lost on death was pretty cheap and easy to bulk up on.tibia had really expensive gear but u only lost 1-3 equipment when you die along with everything in inventory... and some levels,skills etc.. much harsher than ultima online.And still it was very popular game with 10+ servers and constant need to create new servers because so big population... until the sheep games came like WoW.

Then I'd say you should try out EVE online.
It's the only MMO that I know of that comes close to what you describe; it's like ultima by the sound of it.
It does'nt have no-pvp zones, but zones guarded by NPCs that discourages players from pvp, but if you're far enough away from the guards you can do hit-n-runs and be gone before the guards have time to respond.
But it's a sandbox game alright, and there are no servers with pve only since there is only one single but huge server where every player plays; sheeps and wolfs alike.
You can chose to play as the pirate, hunting for targets and ambushing lone miners or cargo transports and destroying player ships drops some of the equipment mounted on them, not all, so there's no full loot.