Where is the story/explaination for why, in the Imperium, ALL machines must have a SOUL, and AI is considered the highest of crimes.

I seem to remember it has to do with some sort of AI machine rebellion, but I cannot remember where I saw it...

Thanks!

Strikerkc

03-07-2005, 04:33

I seem to remember it has to do with some sort of AI machine rebellion, but I cannot remember where I saw it...

Thanks!

The Iron Men. The reason for the the Dark Age (more acuratly, the reason the dark age is the dark age instead of simply "X" number of years ago ;))

There's some mention of them in the 3rd eddition BBB. Last time I looked for it though I couldn't find it. It's only about a paragraph or so. If I recall the troopers in a guant's ghosts actualy stumble across a "working" (read: chaos corupted) STC fro producing the beasties. Needless to say it was disposed of.

Incognito

03-07-2005, 05:17

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with about a dozen paragraphs of fluff regarding it, but from what I remember, it was the Age of Strife, and that began after the Dark Age of Technology when the machines sought to overthrow man.

Basically, what happened in Dune...

Instigation

03-07-2005, 08:36

Yes the age of strife came after the dark age of technology but it had nothing to do with AI. The AOS was all about the psyker awakening in mankind. Lots of psykers were born amongst humanity and many were possesed and mankind was enslaved by daemonic entities such as the Enslavers and others. It was also an age where warp travel was virtually impossibly because the entire galaxy was covered in warp storms set off by the fall of the eldar and the rise of the fourht chaos power Slaanesh.

Anyway back to the topic. The reason that AI is strictly forbidden within the imperium is because during the Dark Age of Technology, when mankind had become a might technocratic society, the AI machines that man had built turned on them. In fact up until that point i dont think it was known as the "Dark" Age of Technology since man was quite powerful. But ever since then constructing machines without souls has been forbidden.
Regarding to fluff about this there is a page on the topic in the back of the 3rd edition rulebook.

Brusilov

03-07-2005, 08:49

I'll post the aforementioned piece of background on the history of the Iron Men later on (don't have access to my sources ATM).

As to why all machines must have a soul, it is indeed because of the war between the Stone Men (us) and the Iron Men (machines) that took place at the beginning of the Age of Strife. As mentioned, this event had as profound effects as the Butlerian Djihad in the Dune universe, causing mankind to view with horror any attempt to create an artificial sentient being. This explains the existence of people like the Calculus Logi (in some ways akin to the Mentat from Dune), human super-computers (although they receive assistance from cybernetic augmention), the fact that robots are dumb (both the Titans and the machines of the Legio Cybernetica have poor intelligence. It is generally assusmed Titans have animal intelligence and must work in coordination with the Princeps).

The general idea in the Imperium is that during the DAoT, mankind became too dependent on machines, enslaving itself to them and in the process probably losing part of its humanity. The Imperium is a clear backlash against this, proclaiming that mankind must never again be the slave of technology, that a human being is infinitely superior to a machine, that the human form is sanctified...
People fear technology as a soul-sucking monstrosity. This is why the Imperium mixes technology with humans in order to make it acceptable. Thus servitors are robots in all but name, but since they are partly of human flesh they are acceptable. Servo-skulls are robots as well, but the skull of a human around which the machine is centered sanctifies the technology and so on.

Norminator

03-07-2005, 11:20

IIRC, didn't the Iron Men rebel because the STC was corrupted by Chaos? I may be wrong, but that's what I remember reading somewhere.

Brusilov

03-07-2005, 11:31

I think you're mistaking the situation in the novel First and Only with the general situation of the Iron Men. I doubt the Iron Men had souls to corrupt per se, thus they would be more or less impervious to Chaos corruption, except in the physical sense (like Nids cannot worship the Chaos Gods but still can be affected by Nurgle's rot and stuff like that).

IMO it had to do with the machines demanding equality with humans. It would seem logical that sentience whether biologic or artificial should be granted the same rights, however humans probably didn't see that too keenly and put them down.
Personally I would tend to stir away from remove the responsability of the Age of Strife falling on us humans. It is our own failures, both to deal with the Iron Men and to deal with the rise of psykers that caused our downfall, not some outside event beyond our control. Doing the latter would take away some of the grim nature of 40k, that is the universe is the way it is because of the failures of people living in it, not because of some grandiose force imposing its will.

gunhed

03-07-2005, 12:39

It was also an age where warp travel was virtually impossibly because the entire galaxy was covered in warp storms set off by the fall of the eldar and the rise of the fourht chaos power Slaanesh.

I could be wrong, and someone please correct me if I am, but I'm sure that these warp storms were what isolated humanity after the Great Expansion and it was the Psychic Explosion that was the birth of Slaanesh that cleared them, thereby allowing the Emperor to begin his Great Crusade.

Brusilov

03-07-2005, 13:47

gunhed is right, the birth pangs of Slaanesh are what caused the warp storms that caused the first dominion of Man to fall apart and the birth of Slaanesh blew these storms clear and allowed the Emperor to expand the Great Crusade beyond the solar system

Slazton

03-07-2005, 18:26

First of all, welcome back Brusilov :D.

Second, I am shocked a fluff bible article has not been posted up, but alas I guess Forum Inquisitors would jump all over it :p.

As what Brusilov said about Iron Men rebelling, also wasn't there some one called the Gold Men or something like that, or am I confused?

inquisitorautry

03-07-2005, 19:45

Second, I am shocked a fluff bible article has not been posted up, but alas I guess Forum Inquisitors would jump all over it :p.

Probably because the alleged document doesn't contain much on the Iron Men.

As what Brusilov said about Iron Men rebelling, also wasn't there some one called the Gold Men or something like that, or am I confused?
IIRC, the Gold Men were the creators/overlords of the Iron Men. Can't remember their relationship all that well, but they did exist.

Strikerkc

03-07-2005, 20:27

IIRC, the Gold Men were the creators/overlords of the Iron Men. Can't remember their relationship all that well, but they did exist.

Probably an old school version of the AdMech.

Brusilov

03-07-2005, 20:55

The fluff bible, this document does not exist ;)

The Golden Men were IMHO the overseer of all Mankind, stirring it in the direction they see as proper. They disappeared, seemingly because of their dependence on the Stone Men's technology.

And here comes the promised quote, not coming from the fluff bible of course...

Dated in the year of our Emperor 993.M41
For seventy long years I have laboured as Master Finnias laboured before me, and Master Shadiel before him, through eight hundred and thirty six generations of Keepers of the Library Sanctus of Terra. It has been our endeavour, our life-long aim, to compile a history of the majesty of the Human Race from the archives which are our worship. In his benevolent wisdom, the Emperor has granted me the singular and great honour and pleasure of completing this sacred task in my own lifespan.
Through copious notes and periods of cogitation I have pieced together the history and pre-history of Mankind into the greatest antiquities of time. Here I have revealed my findings for the first time, for as it was in the time of the First Keeper, Solomon, our knowledge has passed by oratory and not written word. However, in these changing times there are none worthy to succeed me now, and so it is fit and rightful that I, the Last Keeper, Cripias, records our Great Works to these pages for eternity.
And so it was that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind, yet still the Emperor is content to wait in shadow. To watch and learn from Mankind, the Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilisation on the anarchy of Nature. In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen to Sone Menís power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifices and mechanisms. In time, the Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. This the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.
Our calculations, from the most distant and archaic records, and through constellar comparison, have dated the end of the Golden Age at 20.000 years previous to our present time.
For the next 5.000 years, the Stone Race lives through the Dark Age of Technology. Little can be determined from the Dark Age of Technology, for the majority of existing records concerning that period are gathered in the Librarius Omnis of Mars, and none outside the highest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus can gain access past its most determined Guardians (Keeper Malrubius tried once, but to no avail. We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Ston create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their Great Empire. At first, the Iron Men are as servants, willing to do the bidding of their masters with no thoughts.
However, the Iron Men, as all creatures do, evolve and grow until they are the equal of the Stone Race and beside each other they set about conquering the galaxy. The Dark Age of Technology is an era of machines and artificial devices, used by the Stone Men, and later the Iron Men, in their endeavours. Many of the technical marvels that the Priesthood of Mars sustain can be traced to their origins in the Dark Age of Technology, and itt is at the end of this period that the great organisation know now as the Adeptus Mechanicus was founded. During the Dark Age of Technology, the austere ancestors of the Imperiumís Navis Nobilite are born, and through their unique prowess, mankind forges through the stars. Weapons of great destruction cow the aggression of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankindís dominions.
The end of the Dark Age of Technology is the most obscure region in mankindís evolutionary tale. For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fell to warring with each other. The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anathema to any true Man. The Stone Men in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe, and even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties ot theor one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle. Still the Emperor, in his eternal wisdom, awaits the moment to reveal the true path to Mankindís destiny. Thus the start of the Age of Strife is heralded.
The Age of Strife sees the collapse of the ancient Empire built by the Stone Men. Mankind is split asunder, there is no Race of Man, just warring factions contending with each other in the direst perils the galaxy could offer. Seeing humanityís weakness, alien dominance grows in power oce again, the arms of the Stone Men left to ruin, the protection of the Iron Men destroyed in the last years of the Dark Age of Technology. For five millennia, the human race exists in the twilight of its former greatness, bickering and fighting for the scant resources to hand. With no guiding will, no manifest destiny of lordship, mankind is left in turmoil. Even Earth, the bedrock on which humanityís Empire was founded is gripped in the throes of generation-long intercine war. The foul aliens who had been held back by the might of the Iron Men and the Stone Men surge forth from their havens and lairs, destroying mankindís defences, killing or enslaving the Emperorís wards. Mankind is engulfed by a plague of mutation, physical deviants and men possessed of psychic talents appear throughout the galaxy bringing more havoc with them. With no over-reaching authority, these lost souls and psykers sprawl unchecked across the human race. It is at this time that the Emperor reveals his true nature and sets about his plans of delivrance from anarchy.
For the last ten thousand years we have been in the glorious Age of the Imperium, the Reign of the Beneficent Emperor of Mankind. Using his vast intellect and knowledge of ages past, the Emperor creates a race of warriors to quell the warring factions on Earth, renaming our Homeworld Terra and affirming its place as the centre of the known galaxy. Having established ruleship over Mankindís birthworld, the Emperor sets about to the re-creation of Mankindís righteous fate. With his Legions of Space Marines, the Emperor leads the Great Crusade of Reconquest. It is a long and arduous war, but world after world, seing in the Emperor the rightful rule of mankind, falls to his service. The Space Marines, now numbered in their many thousands, establish outposts in the far reaches of the galaxy and from these bases on asteroids and moons and planet, launch forays into the darkness, bringing the Light and Word of the Emperor with them. Through this turmoil Ė the base treachery of the Warmaster and sacrifice of the Emperor, the contact with the noble offices of the Priesthood of Mars, the establishment of the Navis Nobilite and other noteworthy assemblages that we now take for granted as well as the purges of mutants and psykers Ė the Imperium is forged in blood and death, on a thousand thousand worlds the rightful and just rule of the Emperor is reassertedÖ.
And so it is, ten thousand years since the Great Crusade we are able to live under the guiding Light of the Emperor, we have the guns of the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard and Adeptus Astartes, to guard against betrayal and foul aliens.
But the stories do not end there. For in our research, the Keepers of the Library Sanctus on Terra have uncovered many forgotten secrets, hidden lore, tales of treachery and heroism. Although we have not become, by no means, omniscient, we know many things that should not be known. For example, who few outside of this stone chamber have learned of the Betrayal of Luther, the Curse of the Red Thirst, the dark shrouded founding of the Sisterhood. Who has recited such tales of woe as can be found in the Legacies of Gathalamor, the unseen mysteries concering the origins of the Space Marines Legions, the dark perils that await those who passed beyond the Gates of Varl, the names of the sinister architects of the Ymga Monolith.

Lord-Warlock

03-07-2005, 21:13

The Golden Men are, IIRC, the good, honest men and women who didn't depend on the soul-stealing wizardries of technology for survival. I see it as a somewhat romantic (as it gets in 40K), description of hard-toiling, pious, near-perfect folk who get by without the dangers posed by the Machine.

TheSonOfAbbadon

03-07-2005, 21:33

As I remember it, Golden men came around at about the same time as Stone men and the Emperor was good friends with/only revealed his existance to the Golden men, as the Stone men were idiots, as it were.

Something like that.

EDIT: Note to self, read all of the long quote before posting.

Brusilov

03-07-2005, 21:48

I would place no moral value on the name Golden Men personally, I would rather believe that they were the leaders of Mankind, possibly a secret organisation centered around the Emperor himself.

Personally I think the Golden Men were the brain boyz of humanity. Personally I think that the Old Ones established the genes for the brain boyz in all the species of the worlds they seeded and that includes mankind.

TheSonOfAbbadon

03-07-2005, 21:57

The Old Ones didn't make humans, or at least, there's no reference to them doing so.

Bmaxwell

03-07-2005, 22:02

As far as we know humans weren't made but as far we know the old ones messed with the dna of all species

Bruen

03-07-2005, 22:03

The Golden Men are, IIRC, the good, honest men and women who didn't depend on the soul-stealing wizardries of technology for survival.

You are telling us that the Golden Men are Amish?

Hideous Loon

03-07-2005, 22:48

Bruen: Yep, totally.

On topic: Wow. Where did you find this, highly interesting piece of information, Brusie? Surely not in the non-existant fluff bible, yes? Anyway, I don't really see the difference between "artificial intelligence" and "machine spirits". Could someone explain this to me?

Brusilov

04-07-2005, 00:02

Well, the non-existant fluff bible had many versions... I just happen not to have an improved one :rolleyes: :angel:
This information is actually found at the end of the 3rd Ed. rulebook.

I'm not saying humans were created by Old Ones, I'm saying Earth was probably seeded with life by Old Ones, something quite different altogether.
However I believe the OO created genes so that a group of enlightened people would rise in sentient races from planets they had seeded and would serve as intermediaries between them and the rest of the new race.
This derives from the idea that Orks had brain boyz, one can say Eldar do too (either Eldar gods or Seers), Tau do as well (I for one believe in the Necron redemption theory as far as Tau are concerned, but that's a topic for another time), humans had Golden Men...

Bmaxwell

04-07-2005, 03:57

I want to see more golden men! man they must have been quite a sight to see

Voss

04-07-2005, 04:52

The machine souls vs. AI thing has less to do with something specific happening in the 'dark' age of technology, and more to do with how badly things have gone in the Imperium since then. (Dark, here, refers to heretical, since they weren't practicing science in the Machine God/AdMech approved fashion).

Basically since then lots and lots of knowledge has been lost, which leads to the current state of the AdMech fixing tech my rituals and ministering to the machines, rather than <technobabbling> the <technobabble> to get it back in working order. Since they don't really understand what they're doing, its essentially akin to a form of magic honoring the spirit of the machine.

When you get right down to it, a machine spirit is an AI, its just that the AdMechs, techmarines, etc don't understand it as such. As opposed to the Tau Earth Caste, who look at the humans oddly and start to back away, worried that the madmen might do something crazy. Like <technobabbling> the <technobabble> and causing a system wide meltdown and explosion.

Brusilov

04-07-2005, 06:21

I would argue that considering how much belief shapes reality in 40k, it is not entirely impossible that what you consider to be "technobabble" is in fact a safe way to deal with machine spirits. It is entirely possible that these machine spirits are real and not simply IAs.

It is doubtful that we'll know more about the Golden Men, they're part of the creation myth of the 40k universe and thus are barely mentioned in the fluff

When Black Roses Bloom

04-07-2005, 07:03

Darn, just saw the thread. I made a simillar one in the General Discussion about WH with title "The use of cybernetics in the WH world". :eyebrows: I haven't seen this one.

Brusilov

04-07-2005, 18:23

I'd say those kind of topics would fit better in the 40k background forum than general. We have many quality posters here, that can answer such questions.

Khaine's Messenger

04-07-2005, 18:50

When you get right down to it, a machine spirit is an AI

Erg. You do realize that this would mean that AI's are omnipresent, in everything from transistor radios and lasguns to the mightiest pieces of technology? Because all machines are considered to have machine spirits (from what I recall), if not intelligence and the requisite understanding that makes the God Machine so powerful. Thus, the origin of the idea of a machine spirit might be from a coupling of machine-animism/spiritualism with the empirical fact that artificial intelligences existed...but it's doubtful that all machine spirits are in point of fact artificial intelligences. On the other hand, I suppose everything could have an AI...like the nanite colonies that made everything on Earth into artificial intelligences in Gamma World.

As opposed to the Tau Earth Caste, who look at the humans oddly and start to back away, worried that the madmen might do something crazy.

Or hand them over to the Water Caste to translate the babble into something useful. Superstition does not preclude understanding per se, and cloaking technobabble and operational manuals with religious diatribe doesn't make it not technobabble or not operational manuals....

Brusilov

04-07-2005, 19:16

You're actually making an excellent point Messenger. The so called technobabble could be nothing more than a way for the Mechanicus to maintain its monopoly on technology by saying: "only we know the proper rituals to appease the machine spirits, only we are worthy to pray the Omnissiah."

But then you could argue, like I do, that there are in fact machine spirits within every piece of Imperial technology and that the ritual are as necessary as the actual repairing of the device.
This is no stranger than the idea that Ork tech works because of the Ork's belief that if works amplified by its latent psychic ability, meaning something that wouldn't work in the hands of anyone else would be a shoota in the hands of an Ork.

Khaine's Messenger

04-07-2005, 19:35

The so called technobabble could be nothing more than a way for the Mechanicus to maintain its monopoly on technology by saying: "only we know the proper rituals to appease the machine spirits, only we are worthy to pray the Omnissiah."

Oh, but it's not as simple as base extortion. They really do believe themselves when they say it (or at least the least cynical ones do! ;) Following from my opinions on how seroiusly the High Lords take the Imperial Creed...although I think that was on the old board), and there's probably a modicum of truth in what they say.

But then you could argue, like I do, that there are in fact machine spirits within every piece of Imperial technology and that the ritual are as necessary as the actual repairing of the device.

This is part of Cult Mechanicus Dogma....but it dodges the issue of "what" sort of mechanism the machine spirit is, or how it has become imparted to technology where before it was apparently not. If it is at all like the machine spirits of Titans and warships (which is a little unfair, because the background suggests those things are mostly affected by the "psychic echoes" of their Princeps/Navigators, accounting for a small degree of what becomes their "personality"), then it would be logical to note them to be some form of psychic residue or an AI....and the latter would be odd, while we don't even have a concievable mechanism for how the former could have come about other than "we believe it, therefore it is true" (after all, alien technologies are argued by Tech Priests to have "machine spirits"...albeit mistreated and abused, naturally, and to quote the Explorator Warband article, they are "like bound daemons in Mechanicus lore").

Brusilov

04-07-2005, 21:36

Oh I'm not saying they don't believe what they're preaching, but they also see it in a utilitarian manner.

On the matter of large constructions like spaceships or Titans, it has been argued that those machines have spirits of their own. IIRC Warlords had the minds of bears, Warhound of, obviously, hounds...

And personally to me, machine spirits are just that: daemons, but daemons of the Machine God, created by the belief of the techpriests and billions of people who believe in these machine spirits.

Khaine's Messenger

04-07-2005, 22:42

But the point is, the AdMech holds that machine spirits dwell in all machines, no matter who made them, so you can extrapolate that to some fundamental rule about machines in 40k if you want, just point out that the AdMech has no reason to believe that alien machines would not have machine spirits even if they "don't," or posit that the only evidence for machine spirits is Titans and warships (and perhaps a few misinterpreted electrocution/industrial accidents! ;) ) with a touch of "we believe"...with the first, it seems that it's likely machine spirits would simply be the AdMech's animism reflecting some greater truth (which has heretofore gone unnoticed by everyone else), with the second you reinforce the notion that the machine spirit is something unique to human machines and the notion that machine spirits are AI (or if they are psychic residues/"souls"/"daemons," then how does that become attached to the machine if not all machines have this as an inherent property?), and with the last you just have it as a matter of obfuscation.

If machine spirits are indeed "daemons," and not just in the sense that the AdMech believes them to be such, then how do they exist, why do they exist, and for how long have machine spirits existed? Have machines always had them? Are they there precisely because of the "belief shapes reality" idea?

Rabid Bunny 666

04-07-2005, 22:53

I would place no moral value on the name Golden Men personally, I would rather believe that they were the leaders of Mankind, possibly a secret organisation centered around the Emperor himself.
.

istarii maybe?

the daemon theory is interesting and the idea of the technobabble to confuse the 'norms is also good, but i'll stick with the crazy ol' tech priests i know and love :D

Brusilov

04-07-2005, 23:31

Good questions you're asking Messenger, since I do sometimes work like GW, thinking of how cool the idea sounds and not thinking of the implications.
On the matter of daemons as machine spirits, you have to remember that even though the Adeptus Mechanicus may not necessarily be directly involved in the construction of everything in the Imperium, the technology and the means to build things often come from them and construction is done under their supervision to ensure that the proper rituals are undertaken when the Omnissiah invests part of its essence into the machine and breath it life.
In a sense it is very much that. As long as you have not completed the proper rituals, the machine is just an empty husk, that in Mechanicus mythology would not work, only the blessing of the Mechanicus can call forth a spirit to invest the machine and give it life.
As to what they are from a more objective perspective, I have no clue. Daemons are the reflexion of human emotions, thus machine spirits are the reflexion of emotions toward machines, gremlins if you will, or the fact that sometimes for mysterious reasons your computer does not work, you do some random stuff and voilŗ it works again. Machine spirits I tell you. This is way my computer is covered with purity seals, has a Opus Machina on the front and is blessed weekly with holy oils.
And it works only for human technology because only humans think in this way.

Khaine's Messenger

04-07-2005, 23:40

They obviously work for aliens, though...or at least so the Mechanicus believes. It is just that those machine spirits that inhabit alien technologies are tortured and abused, possibly twisted and corrupted from the truth understanding/comprehension of the Machine God. Thus it seems that machine spirits also exist independantly of a blessing of the Mechanicus...or, again, so they believe. Further, if this is the case, do they believe that the machine spirits have always been present and only now has there been a society to recognize them, or are they a more recent fabrication?

When Black Roses Bloom

05-07-2005, 03:50

It reminds me some of the background from Isaak Asimov "I, Robot". The Ghost In The Machine. If you can call it that way.

In a sense it is very much that. As long as you have not completed the proper rituals, the machine is just an empty husk, that in Mechanicus mythology would not work, only the blessing of the Mechanicus can call forth a spirit to invest the machine and give it life.

You mean something like a program transfer (in the case of the machine spirit) inside the LandRaider for example?

Brusilov

05-07-2005, 06:33

I'm not so sure alien machines have machine spirits. The techpriests have to bless and adapt this technology for it to work. You could argue it's to appease the spirits, but then why would the Omnissiah bless heathens with the presence of machine spirits in the tech, none whatsoever.

Rose, I think you want to absolutely link this idea to technology, while personaly I think this is not necessarily the case. When I speak of spirits I speak of real spirits, not program transfer (although it could be partially the case in the most advanced machines), simple things don't necessarily have programs but they have machine spirits

Khaine's Messenger

05-07-2005, 21:00

I'm not so sure alien machines have machine spirits.

Then the question becomes, why do tech priests assume they must? Simple "our rules apply to everyone because we are the bestest" thinking, or do they actually have a case?

The techpriests have to bless and adapt this technology for it to work.

To work properly, yes, but not to work period. Hence the "bound daemons" comment previously. Maybe this is why the Imperium is utterly convinced that Ork technology requires that they believe it works in order to force it to work. :rolleyes:

Brusilov

05-07-2005, 21:07

I'm not sure techpriests assume alien technology has machine spirits, maybe they don't. Thus in order to use it they must "Imperialise" it by adding a few purity seals, holy oils, burning incense around it, Emperor knows what else. When this is done, the alien machine is possessed (in the daemonic sense of the term) by a machine spirit.

As to Ork tech, the only ones who use it are either Orks or people that have been deeply orkified like Diggas or Armageddon Ork Hunters so we'll never know for sure. I don't remember anyone picking up a shoota and starting firing with it (possibly because it's so massive though)...

No, they do. If the specialist games website hadn't gone bonkers about pulling up the Explorator Warband PDF file, I'd post a full quote.

When this is done, the alien machine is possessed (in the daemonic sense of the term) by a machine spirit.

No, the machine spirit would become contented and no longer restless, freed of its inconsiderate captors and properly venerated. I'm pretty sure the tech priests wouldn't see this veneration as the investment of a machine spirit in alien technology where none existed before.

As to Ork tech, the only ones who use it are either Orks or people that have been deeply orkified like Diggas or Armageddon Ork Hunters so we'll never know for sure.

And the DKoK, and at least one mention of a Ghost using it in Ghostmaker, but that's just of course because the Orks have no reason to believe it won't work against them, right? :rolleyes:

nurgle_boy

06-07-2005, 00:02

ok, its a little off topic i know, but would someone who has a copy of first and only, give me a page ref, for the peice with the iron men?
im really interested now...

anarchistica

06-07-2005, 01:47

istarii maybe?
One Istar, multiple Istari. They were called the Istari, not the Istarii. :p

ok, its a little off topic i know, but would someone who has a copy of first and only, give me a page ref, for the peice with the iron men?
im really interested now...
They are first refered to on page 283.

On topic:

Personally i think GW intends with the background of 40K to make us think about religion. Religion is used as an excuse for the countless atrocities, but could mankind survive without religion? Is religion based on reality or is it just a tool through which to gain power?

This leaves us with two options in the case.

The first is that Tech-Priests are only trying to preserve their own power, using nonsensical rituals to 'sanctify' machines. Machine spirits are just AI, which will serve anyone, good or evil. Orks using their latent psychic powers to make their guns work is just given as further 'proof' of the AdMech being right. Some authors seem to support this, like Ian Watson (the Squa...Demiurg in his Inquisitor Wars Trilogy doesn't think much of the AdMech and his machines work fine because he uses oil like them, just doesn't cite any prayers).

The other option would be that spirits and such are real. What these spirits are is unclear. Are they part of the Omnissiah? Are they just random spirits? Daemons? Perhaps they are AI that somehow became sentient? That last explanation would make sense i think (i'm not too familiar with the 40K background). Just like the Iron Men, the AI in all those machines became sentient and have to be soothed somehow to work properly. Chaos simply corrupts AI's so they don't need soothing. Demiurg soothe with oil and a grumble.

Alien machines either don't have Machine spirits, soothe them otherwise or have non-sentient AI (seems most likely) which the AdMech consider to be mistreated and abused Machine Spirits because those aliens don't soothe them which the aliens know is unnecessary.

*hopes it makes sense*

Brusilov

06-07-2005, 06:18

This is my opinion as well. But personally I would argue it would be a combination of both. The Mechanicus does truly believe that there are entities possessing all technological devices and that they need to be appeased, but they also keep the rituals to do so as complicated and secret as possible to maintain their monopoly on technology.

there we have it - the dark age of technology all wrapped up in a nutshell

Brusilov

11-07-2005, 23:19

Yes, quite so, but then as I mentioned a while back, it's the "Frankenstein syndrome", man fearing that its creation will overpower him. This kind of idea has been around for decades, the Butlerian Djihad in Dune, the Skynet revolt in Terminator... The Matrix is nothing but the latest incarnation of a classical dilemma of science fiction: how do we cope with our creations when they demand equality because we've made them so akin to us they're sentient in the way we understand it?.