LCBulls wrote:Looking at the pedigree leads me to believe that Connealy Confidence might have had something to do with it. His calves were pretty dang small and not a lot of growth. He was all the rage until his numbers plunged. Gaffney Game Changers were pretty nice though. Who really knows why some matings seem to click while others don’t. I wish I had all the answers.

We have some Game Changers coming now. We bred some to second calf heifers. We’ve had to pull two and they ran a little bigger than they should have been but my husband felt in those two instances, that neither dams tried very hard because they were very easy pulls.

That’s interesting, we didn’t have any trouble with them at all on heifers. The lone survivor from our Frozen Pond fiasco was a Game Changer x Donna first calf heifer. Just about lost her as well. She is really nice and has a great EPD profile. We will have to see if she lives up to the EPD’s.

LCBulls wrote:Looking at the pedigree leads me to believe that Connealy Confidence might have had something to do with it. His calves were pretty dang small and not a lot of growth. He was all the rage until his numbers plunged. Gaffney Game Changers were pretty nice though. Who really knows why some matings seem to click while others don’t. I wish I had all the answers.

We have some Game Changers coming now. We bred some to second calf heifers. We’ve had to pull two and they ran a little bigger than they should have been but my husband felt in those two instances, that neither dams tried very hard because they were very easy pulls.

That’s interesting, we didn’t have any trouble with them at all on heifers. The lone survivor from our Frozen Pond fiasco was a Game Changer x Donna first calf heifer. Just about lost her as well. She is really nice and has a great EPD profile. We will have to see if she lives up to the EPD’s.

I think my husband was likely right on them. I wouldn’t say they’re birth weights were enormous. Just a bit bigger than expected.

When a dry cow looks like that I sort of know what she'll look like when she calves. I do not want that, I would cull if it was mine and would not pay or breed to get it. I assume we are looking at the dam.

Once again we learn the hard, cruel lesson of early development and over development of bulls. If you want feedlot type performance and data, feed and kill sib steers. If you want bulls with function and longevity, develop slowly but consistently. Kids are no different. Early entry into sports has raised a rash of injuries to kids; some permanent. It is recognized and warning are out there. On bulls, it seems the answer is buffer the feed to prevent rumen issues and the more gain the merrier. Either learn the lessons, complain that the great ones melted away in your pasture or salvage the injured young bulls for burgers. All things have limits.

I never saw the bull in person but never cared for how he or his progeny walked on video. Did this cause his demise? I don’t necessarily think so as bulls get injured all the time breeding cows and is part of life. As far as udders go I feel there is no such thing as too good of an udder. There are lots of cows that would extend their productive life 2 to 5 years if they had better udders. When we look at depreciation costs in the cowherd that is serious money. The bull in question here would be a downgrade by a fair bit on udder quality for me. Easier to cull problems like udders than it is to breed it out but multiplying more problems is less than smart.

Regardless of one's opinion regarding Gerald Frey his remarks on the topic of udders are spot on:

The udder should be small and tucked neatly between the back legs with
four equally placed nipples 3-4 inches long. The udder should attach high
up behind the back legs for longevity and soundness.
The udder should blend into the lower part of the belly very smoothly
with no V or crevice between the udder and stomach. The udder should not be tilted up in front. Tilted udders are a structural defect resulting from the sire and his scrotal makeup. Tilted udders have less milk.
The udder has a direct influence on the scrotal make up and navel area of her sons.

There was a great comment in another forum asking why the need to debate the merits of female offspring if the bull was perhaps best suited as a terminal sire.

Using terminal sires is an acknowledged practice. Problematic is few have the discipline to ship all and resist the temptation to incorporate the heifers as replacements...and then become frustrated when they fall short of mark maternally.

But, just to fuel the debate -- I had a heifer calve with what I assume (just looked at the angus scoring guide) many would say was a superior udder and teat. Except she didn't claim the calf.

Udder structure & lack of mothering instinct aren't correlated. As per your comment below, I trust you culled her ASAP.

There is a balance in all areas. I cull hard on mothering capability as a whole.

Some things are easier to tolerate. Compromising on conformation/udder/feet will sooner rather than later come home to roost.

Using terminal sires is an acknowledged practice. Problematic is few have the discipline to ship all and resist the temptation to incorporate the heifers as replacements...and then become frustrated when they fall short of mark maternally.

Udder structure & lack of mothering instinct aren't correlated. As per your comment below, I trust you culled her ASAP.

Can I claim success if I managed to negotiate a truce that allowed me to avoid a bottle calf? In all honesty she likely received a Covid-19 reprieve. I had more time to mess with her than I normally would (due to Covid closure) and, more importantly, due to the huge meat processing shutdowns regionally my local lockers were/are booked out until April/May 2021. Without that she would already be in my fat cattle yard.