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D12 is interesting to me (this goes off on a tangent), he has been better this season after working with Hakeem but I think maybe D12 isn't what everyone wants/would like him to be (especially after the dunk contest).

He is a freakish athlete (as are most successful straight-from-high-school players), but the fact is he might just be an insanely athletic, taller version of Ben Wallace. He grabs boards, blocks shots, can get some easy buckets. There's nothing wrong with that...but I think it's entirely possible that the offensive game won't really come along (besides using his sheer size to dominate people) like we all wanted it to, as fans of the NBA.

I would love to have JVG back but from what I see, he looks pretty set on being an analyst for a while. I respect SVG as a coach, I hate him as a person though. Not that I know him personally, but his quotes in the media and (I know a pet-peeve-ish thing to say) his lack of wearing a tie to games just bother me.

I see his limitations as a product of the system (I know its similar).

I mean their system isn't designed to utilize a big off the low blocks. He does exactly what the system needs him to do, what our system needs someone to do, and he's one of the best at it.
Size, set screens
Rebounds
Intimidates, alters shots, blocks
Get put backs.

The dirty work. He's not really the focus of their system, but when he gets it going, he gets his regardless. What he lacks is grace and decision making. That usually comes with maturity.

Do you think our systems are similar? One thing I notice is our system really isn't desinged for any individual, but rather a team based system, where anyone can go off.

That to me can be good and bad. Because at times a player might be hot, or have a mismatch and it cantbe exploited. And two when (if) we get stars, they expect plays to be run for them. I really don't see that. I see the basic get Amare the ball at the elbow let him do soemthing, but not really the curls screens used for specific players. Its more of a ball movement team concept, wait for the open shot, and again if a certain player is on fire it seems the only way he can keep it up is running the same exact play. If we deviate then chances are another takes the shot.

I see his limitations as a product of the system (I know its similar).

I mean their system isn't designed to utilize a big off the low blocks. He does exactly what the system needs him to do, what our system needs someone to do, and he's one of the best at it.
Size, set screens
Rebounds
Intimidates, alters shots, blocks
Get put backs.

The dirty work. He's not really the focus of their system, but when he gets it going, he gets his regardless. What he lacks is grace and decision making. That usually comes with maturity.

Do you think our systems are similar? One thing I notice is our system really isn't desinged for any individual, but rather a team based system, where anyone can go off.

That to me can be good and bad. Because at times a player might be hot, or have a mismatch and it cantbe exploited. And two when (if) we get stars, they expect plays to be run for them. I really don't see that. I see the basic get Amare the ball at the elbow let him do soemthing, but not really the curls screens used for specific players. Its more of a ball movement team concept, wait for the open shot, and again if a certain player is on fire it seems the only way he can keep it up is running the same exact play. If we deviate then chances are another takes the shot.

I don't blame the Magic for keeping the ball out of D12s hands a lot in the offensive game. Fact is, guy shoots a pathetic percentage from the free throw line, it's points off the board.

Simmons put my thoughts on D12 pretty well (and better than I ever could, seeing as he is a pro writer):

He's one of the best players in the league, but you'd never make the case that he's the best. He's one of the most valuable players in the league, but you'd never say he's most valuable. We don't take him for granted, and we don't think he's overrated. He's Dwight Howard: the best center since Shaq, a franchise player for a fringe contender, someone who's very very very very very very good but not quite great. And that's why he's properly rated.

I do think that Amare would be a good "share-er" in the system, he loves the spotlight, which is why he is in NY. But he wants Carmelo here. He wants a title, and I think he knows that to attain it we are going to add significant pieces (but not at the cost of losing all the assets we have). If anything, I think that most people will admit that if you are not in the D'Antoni-doghouse (see: Robinson, Nate and Hill, Jordan), he is the best players coach. Amare, Carmelo and whomever of the 3 Fields, Gallo, Chandler are left never (excuse the pun) will even SNIFF the doghouse. Say what you want about D'Antoni, he dealt with personalities and stars on Team USA, he knows how to deal with big-time players, something that not everyone (see: Brown, Mike and Spoelstra, Eric (early season)) can do. If we get Carmelo, I don't see many people being able to deal with star power as much as I think D'Antoni can.

IF we acquire better players is that an indication that we could play D inspite of MDA's system?

And you said you could see how a short rotation hinders defense, but isn't that a staple of coach?

Also, will it matter to you if we make the playoffs but get bounced year after year?
Yes considering our past, it may be an improvement, but isn't the goal to win a chip? I mean you actually think we/MDA can keep the "we need more talent" thing up for over 4 years?
When some dificiencies have been on display over coaches career? By your assertion, coach's system can't be analyzed til' we make it to the NBA finals and lose. Then analyzing has validity?

So more time = better players.
Better players should = better results.

If we intmate the players, then we would have to field a better team than the historic PHX teams to achieve better results and defensively they weren't good enough.

What are the odds fans and the FO gives coach enough time to do that? Slim to none imo. If only coach could show an ability to overachieve with what he has ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT, then we could say the potential is there to achieve with the minimum.

When we argue (for lack of a better word) that more and more better players are needed (especally when some old players do better in different systems), then isn't that an indication in and of itself. I mean we will practically go through two overhauls just to get a low seed and early exit?

That's a bit much imo. But yeah we are doing better just not in the areas needed to really make noise. A minor adjustement in approach could do MDA wonders.

I think our Coach's current short rotation tendency is due to a lack of personnel as opposed to preference or style.

If you remember he tried a 10 man rotation at the beginning of this season. Unfortunately he found he did not have the players to sustain it and win consistently.

In Phoenix he usually ran teams game to game w an 8-9 man rotation during the reg reason and in the playoffs. This, unequivocally, did not work--> =great reg season, deep playoff runs & no chip.

I think and hope Mike D has learned from his experience, as well as what he's seen work for his former assistant coach Gentry.

IME, if coach D'antoni gets enough solid players to implement a 10 man rotation during the reg season, he could keep his players sufficiently fresh enough to shorten his rotation in the playoffs w positive effect- ie ability for his players to sustain effort on the defensive end while continuing to flow and flourish w SSOL style.

We need to be able to be fresh enough come playoff time to run and give a good 48 effort on dfense. To do this expanding the rotation during the regular season is the key. In order to expand it w good effect we need players. We're only in the first phase at this point. This is the formula I see for our team w Mike D going forward.

And yes theoretically we'd have to field a better team than what Mike D had in Phoenix. But isn't that the direction we're going in? I mean, its not out of bounds to ask for the best playerz possible to run your system right? That's the expectation of any org/ coach. And if you think about it those teams Mike D had in Phoenix over achieved IMO. We NEED to fill out our roster.

I think our Coach's current short rotation tendency is due to a lack of personnel as opposed to preference or style.

If you remember he tried a 10 man rotation at the beginning of this season. Unfortunately he found he did not have the players to sustain it and win consistently.

In Phoenix he usually ran teams game to game w an 8-9 man rotation during the reg reason and in the playoffs. This, unequivocally, did not work--> =great reg, deep playoff runs & no chip.

I think and hope Mike D has learned from his experience, as well as what he's seen work for his former assistant coach Gentry.

IMO, if coach D'antoni gets enough solid players to implement a 10 man rotation during the reg season, he could keep his players sufficiently fresh enough to shorten his rotation in the playoffs w positive effect- ie ability for his players to sustain effort on the defensive end while continuing to flow and flourish w SSOL style.

We need to be able to be fresh enough come playoff time to run and give a good 48 effort on dfense. To do this expanding the rotation during the regular season is the key. In order to expand it w good effect we need players. We're only in the first phase at this point. This is the formula I see for our team w Mike D going forward.

And yes theoretically we'd have to field a better team than what Mike D had in Phoenix. But isn't that the direction we're going in? I mean, its not out of bounds to ask for the best playerz possible to run your system right? That's the expectation of any org/ coach. And if you think about it those teams Mike D had in Phoenix over achieved IMO. We NEED to fill out our roster.

Sounds like you're asking for two more years to be in the conversation as a contender. You think New York will wait that long?

Maybe if we overachieve this year, and go deep next year.
But like Lupica says the pressure is on coach to achieve and mounting the more "better" players we acquire.

C'mon Black, you're in the "Anti MDA" thread, not the Anti Clyde thread.

Address the points.

When he addresses mine in the other thread, I will gladly. But I'm not going to spend my time crafting an argument against his points for him to just say "No I'm right you are dumb," and then run away, again. Waste of time.

Seriously Hitman, I get you don't agree with the thread, won't I don't get is why take time to reply with nothing to say?smh.

You see, everyone always assumes hidden motives, but I tryuly wanted to facilitate this site, because I read the threads and noticed we go off course and don't stick on topic. I don't need a thread to defend my position on MDA because I already have.

Notice how we can NOW discus Melo in the trade thread, and anything else in another appropriate thread without getting into MDA. Here is for MDA.

When I want to hear from you, I'll create a KO's worst poster thread. K?

Red, I completely agree with you, I think Mike D'Antoni gets way too much of a pass for the consistent lack of defense his teams traditionally display. Having a fast-paced offensive system is no excuse for the lack of defensive intensity the Knicks have demonstrated since he's been the head coach. Other Knicks coaches were lambasted for the same types of consistent mental lapses and lack of defensive intensity, why is D'Antoni given a pass by some? In the third year of his coaching regime I would have hoped to see more improvement in this area. I think offensively the team looks alot better with STAT anchoring the offense he obviously plays a huge role but I'll give D'Antoni credit for that much. But any Knick fan who seriously ever wants to contend for a championship should hope to see much better defense being played than what we've seen so far under this head coach.

I have some rational points...but all of his statements are an old rehashing of stuff already debunked/talked about in countless other threads...I know exactly how this will go down:

Step 1. He gives old arguments beaten to death in other threads.

Step 2. I give rational responses, which inevitably are similar to or the same as the old responses because they are responding to the old arguments.

Step 3. Clyde does not read the post, consider the other side of the argument, calls me an idiot and tells me to find people who can explain it to me.

Not worth my time...on the other hand, if he wanted to discuss how he "only presents facts" in the other thread, I am happy to discuss, but he ran from that thread too.

Ran from the other thread? I've run from nothing. There comes a point in any discussion where repeating and rehashing the same things are useless. Its either you dont understand or you dont want to understand. I'm not going to blow a corpuscle trying to explain it to you, over and over and over again.

You've been asking me the same question for two weeks. So show some intelligence and figure it out for yourself. I'll give you some options.

a) I feel I answered your question
b) I dont have an answer
c) You dont understand the point being made
d) You're an idiot

Choose one. Hell choose 2, 3 or all of the above just move on.

I notice you still haven't presented any dispute on TODAY'S topic. Cat got your tongue?