I'm assuming your point is that people should just accept it as normal when they come across it in a game, even though it feels completely wrong to most people. In reality though, it isn't customers' reactions that keeps making a buzz, it's Bioware's inability to stop talking about it (as this article is a great example of). Especially David Gaider.

Originally Posted by Stingray
I'm assuming your point is that people should just accept it as normal when they come across it in a game, even though it feels completely wrong to most people. In reality though, it isn't customers' reactions that keeps making a buzz, it's Bioware's inability to stop talking about it (as this article is a great example of). Especially David Gaider.

Yep. Gay people are bombarded by representations of straight love on a near constant basis, and we have no choice but to accept it as normal. I don't think the occasional gay character in a video game will cause you that much emotional trauma. Maybe if you are exposed to it more often, it will stop feeling so uncomfortable to you (much like the desensitization toward violence you just pointed out, which I would think is far more disturbing).

And once again… Gaider was talking about gay portrayals in video games because it was taking place at a GAY EVENT.

Doesn't cause me any emotional trauma, but it also shouldn't surprise you if the vast majority of people people react to something like that being introduced to games, when it isn't something they haven't encountered up till now in games, or RL for that matter. If it honestly surprises you, that's fairly naive.

Anyway, comparing it to killing in games is a bad comparison. War is something that's gone on throughout the course of human history, and most people are taught about it at an early age. In the vast majority of games, killing of other humans comes in the context of either war, or "good vs evil". Fairly few games have gratuitous killing (or "murder" as Thrasher put it), and those that do are usually at least semi-controversal (examples: Postal, Grand Theft Auto).

Again, I think most gamers couldn't care less whether there is a romance (gay or not), and many might even enjoy a well-written one, if the rest of the gameplay would be on par with the expectations. But since that hasn't been the case for quite some time, BioWare's emphasis on said romances became a symbol for everything that is wrong with their games, whether that's justified or not.

Personally I would trade every romance in their past and future games for more meaningful content, a larger variety of areas, less linearity, and less cheesy writing. But hey, that's just me.

Originally Posted by joxer
Meh the whole point is to persuade LGBT ppl to buy their games as those are "friendly". But I really don't see what's the fuss about, as players are not buying a game just because it tries to simulate a romance, right? Or I'm wrong?

And that's the best thing about it. For once we are not talking about it because it sells, but because it is the RIGHT thing to do.

You know, gamers find it totally acceptable to play games where they can kill every person that moves, where headshots are seen as cool and some where you can wipe out entire civilizations, but those same people find two guys kissing in a game shocking and disgusting. If that is not upside down ethics I dunno what is.

Disapproving gay people makes as much sense as disaproving rain. We exist. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by Stingray
Doesn't cause me any emotional trauma, but it also shouldn't surprise you if the vast majority of people people react to something like that being introduced to games, when it isn't something they haven't encountered up till now in games, or RL for that matter. If it honestly surprises you, that's fairly naive.

Anyway, comparing it to killing in games is a bad comparison. War is something that's gone on throughout the course of human history, and most people are taught about it at an early age. In the vast majority of games, killing of other humans comes in the context of either war, or "good vs evil". Fairly few games have gratuitous killing (or "murder" as Thrasher put it), and those that do are usually at least semi-controversal (examples: Postal, Grand Theft Auto).

I would disagree that it's a "vast majority." In some more conservative areas it may be a majority, in others a very vocal minority. Nowadays, it's not uncommon to see portrayals of gay romance on TV, in movies and in books. It's even showing up in comic books. And it's increasingly uncommon to not know someone who is gay, be it a friend, family member or acquaintance. In certain pockets of the world maybe, but certainly not everywhere.

I will agree with your point about the manner in which killing is portrayed in games. It is true that games like GTA do get more flack for being gratuitous than CoD. That said, even when killing a "bad guy" or engaging in fantasy violence, I would hope that it would feel more disturbing to you to shoot someone in the head than to simply have a member of the same sex flirt with you. If not, I would hate to see your reaction if/when a guy flirts with you in the real world.

I have to say it's kind of funny that one of the main themes of these comments has been "Gee, why does Gaider have to talk about this gay stuff all the time, doesn't he have more important topics to discuss?"

… and yet this post has far, far more comments than any other article on the main page.

If including minorities into games is a selling strategy, like some people vitriolically imply, then it definitely works with me and I do not care at all if it's done for money or not. I want to support a company that sets a good example for others and that's it. And I'll never diss Bioware for anything, even if they start making exclusively iPhone platform games, because this way they did earn my respect.

I also like that they talk about it all the time, because that's a part of setting an example. Unless you talk about such topics to death, others don't follow the lead. It's very a slow process and I do want more games with options, rather than games forcing you into one and the same stereotype over and over.

And being female, I perfectly understand LGBT people, as I know that playing as someone I can fully identify with is 500% more enjoyable than playing someone of another gender. Even if the game is not very good but I can identify, it's so important that it makes up for its quality quite a bit.

I'm sure that's totally incomprehensible for those who're constantly being represented in games and have no trouble identifying. So as far as LGBT themes go, it's absolutely great that these people can enjoy one aspect of the game 500% more instead of disliking it or just not caring about it.

Originally Posted by RedSocialKnight
I have to say it's kind of funny that one of the main themes of these comments has been "Gee, why does Gaider have to talk about this gay stuff all the time, doesn't he have more important topics to discuss?"

… and yet this post has far, far more comments than any other article on the main page.

Exactly. I am also not sure if its Gaider or Bioware "pushing" this topic, or if its just something they get asked about a lot? Gaider may have become something of a spokesperson for the topic - but maybe that is just because there are no other ones? Maybe there are people who have a need to talk about it - for the present newsbit he was INVITED to talk about it. By gay/lesbian gamers.
And props to Elikal for speaking up for himself.

If he's so invested in the subject he should express his ideas with his medium (as creative people are supposed to do) and make a game exclusively about that instead of just talking or trying to force it in games that are about other things where it can only serve as a jarring distraction. And I mean it, why not? do it well and it can be noteworthy and if it indeed appeals to so many people it can be popular.

-- "I am not interested in good; I am interested in new, even if this includes the possibility of it's being evil"
(LaMonte Young, 1962)

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Exactly. I am also not sure if its Gaider or Bioware "pushing" this topic, or if its just something they get asked about a lot? Gaider may have become something of a spokesperson for the topic - but maybe that is just because there are no other ones? Maybe there are people who have a need to talk about it - for the present newsbit he was INVITED to talk about it. By gay/lesbian gamers.
And props to Elikal for speaking up for himself.

Seriously?

An invitation is something you can refuse - and if talking about these things are based on invites - then he's not refusing them a whole lot

In any case, the guy can talk about whatever he wants. Be he's exposing himself in the media - and people are responding to it.

Personally, I'm just sick of hearing about the same things from the same guy over and over again, that's all. Maybe it's because I think it's about 0.1% relevant for a computer game - and I'd rather hear about something truly relevant.

But I'd never try to stop him talking about a topic so obviously dear to his heart.

That said, I think people in the minority would help themselves more by not shining a light on an issue that shouldn't be an issue - because they're helping it be an issue.

DArtagnan

An invitation is something you can refuse - and if talking about these things are based on invites - then he's not refusing them a whole lot

Why should he? If people invite you to talk about something, it indicates that there are people who want to hear your thoughts about that topic. If press picks it up it indicates furhter that there is an interest in the discussion.

In any case, the guy can talk about whatever he wants. Be he's exposing himself in the media - and people are responding to it.

Oh noes!!!

Personally, I'm just sick of hearing about the same things from the same guy over and over again, that's all. Maybe it's because I think it's about 0.1% relevant for a computer game - and I'd rather hear about something truly relevant.

But that, as you like to say "is just you".

(Edit: and maybe the fact that it's always the same guy actually shows that there really still is a problem?)

But I'd never try to stop him talking about a topic so obviously dear to his heart.

Me neither. Aren't we generous!

That said, I think people in the minority would help themselves more by not shining a light on an issue that shouldn't be an issue - because they're helping it be an issue.

But it is still an issue. We had hompophobe posts not long ago on this very board. They are rampant on the Codex. I agree that gaming is really a minor playing field. But it is one of many. Generally speaking G/L rights, and even more how (as a society but also each of us personally) we deal with homosexuals in our everyday life is still very much an issue. And in some countries a very serious issue, sometimes of life and death (Russia, many arab and african countries). So IMHO, being tired of hearing it is really not a very good reason here. And really, I don't think shutting up is a good strategy for minorities. They need to be loud or they will not be heard.

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Why should he? If people invite you to talk about something, it indicates that there are people who want to hear your thoughts about that topic. If press picks it up it indicates furhter that there is an interest in the discussion.

Is anyone saying he should? I'm saying he's willingly exposing himself in the media - and when you do that as an adult, you should prepare yourself for a response.

That's my point.

But that, as you like to say "is just you".

(Edit: and maybe the fact that it's always the same guy actually shows that there really still is a problem?)

Obviously there's a problem - but I don't see how one person dedicating his life to adding weak gay romancing to blueprint games is a sign of that problem.

It may be a sign of another problem, though

Me neither. Aren't we generous!

I don't consider myself generous for that reason, but yeah - I'm a pretty generous guy.

Doesn't mean I enjoy hearing about gay issues in games when I'm not part of creating the issue - and I consider every single human being an equal.

I feel the same way about all kinds of irrelevant and repetitive nonsense.

But it is still an issue. We had hompophobe posts not long ago on this very board. They are rampant on the Codex. I agree that gaming is really a minor playing field. But it is one of many. Generally speaking G/L rights, and even more how (as a society but also each of us personally) we deal with homosexuals in our everyday life is still very much an issue. And in some countries a very serious issue, sometimes of life and death (Russia, many arab and african countries). So IMHO, being tired of hearing it is really not a very good reason here. And really, I don't think shutting up is a good strategy for minorities. They need to be loud or they will not be heard.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Being tired of hearing about something that's (nearly) irrelevant for a computer game is not a good reason for what, exactly?

I'm not telling them to shut up - I'm saying they're potentially adding to the problem by constantly shining a light on it.

But that's because I don't think just talking about issues is what creates change.

It can help create change and it can help to create further issues - because people can respond negatively as well as positively.

To create change, you have to make people understand - and you have to take up the issues where they're truly relevant and where you can actually make a difference.

Adding weak romances with weak characters in blueprint games are hardly going to do all that much, except perhaps make gay people feel better about something they shouldn't feel bad about it in the first place.