Rylan wrote:Letang is easily worth more than a draft pick and a side piece. Letang is a blockbuster deal requiring compensation greater than the average trade that you think happens. There are numerous 2nd line centers available on the market, but a 25-30 minute number 1 defenseman is one of the rarest breeds of hockey players. Add in his skating ability, age, and offensive prowess its easy to recognize the fact he is worth much more than a simple pick and an average joe.

What do you constitute as an acceptable return, in that case? Being realistic to the cap, of course.

A #1 defenseman.

Well it just so happens that a #1 defensemen is available at #1 in the draft this year. And he will be cheap for many years.

He will also lack experience for many years. I don't know much about Jones, but I do know that guys like Ray Bourque don't grow on trees.

Yes he will lack experience. But he is a bigger version of Letang, and is American so less prone to stupidity, and much cheaper than Letang for a long time.

Rylan wrote:Letang is easily worth more than a draft pick and a side piece. Letang is a blockbuster deal requiring compensation greater than the average trade that you think happens. There are numerous 2nd line centers available on the market, but a 25-30 minute number 1 defenseman is one of the rarest breeds of hockey players. Add in his skating ability, age, and offensive prowess its easy to recognize the fact he is worth much more than a simple pick and an average joe.

What do you constitute as an acceptable return, in that case? Being realistic to the cap, of course.

A #1 defenseman.

So a high draft pick and another top pairing d-man that can take on his minutes but not quite with the same offensive skillset, or maybe more defensive minded?

Ideally, we would just be able to keep Letang and get it into his sometimes empty head that he can't do it all by himself all the time.

Rylan wrote:Letang is easily worth more than a draft pick and a side piece. Letang is a blockbuster deal requiring compensation greater than the average trade that you think happens. There are numerous 2nd line centers available on the market, but a 25-30 minute number 1 defenseman is one of the rarest breeds of hockey players. Add in his skating ability, age, and offensive prowess its easy to recognize the fact he is worth much more than a simple pick and an average joe.

What do you constitute as an acceptable return, in that case? Being realistic to the cap, of course.

A #1 defenseman.

A top 2 defenseman, a prospect, and a pair of draft picks would be where I start.

Same here.

An established #1 dman is only going to put the Pens in the same salary cap situation pretty soon, and Letang is getting moved because of $$$$. No way can take back a lot of dollars in return....sort of defeats the purpose.

A couple of solid prospects plus a very high #1 pick or a good NHL dman + high prospect + #1 works for me.

Rylan wrote:Letang is easily worth more than a draft pick and a side piece. Letang is a blockbuster deal requiring compensation greater than the average trade that you think happens. There are numerous 2nd line centers available on the market, but a 25-30 minute number 1 defenseman is one of the rarest breeds of hockey players. Add in his skating ability, age, and offensive prowess its easy to recognize the fact he is worth much more than a simple pick and an average joe.

What do you constitute as an acceptable return, in that case? Being realistic to the cap, of course.

A #1 defenseman.

So a high draft pick and another top pairing d-man that can take on his minutes but not quite with the same offensive skillset, or maybe more defensive minded?

Ideally, we would just be able to keep Letang and get it into his sometimes empty head that he can't do it all by himself all the time.

Agreed, but we also have to do that in a fiscally sound way as well. It's not that we want Letang gone, it's that it's not feasible to keep him around. That's also where you run into touchy ground with bringing another #1 D-man back. Unless he's already signed a few years at a reasonable contract or on an entry level deal at least through the next year, you're going to run into the same cap issue you'd face keeping Letang.

GSdrums87 wrote:Agreed, but we also have to do that in a fiscally sound way as well. It's not that we want Letang gone, it's that it's not feasible to keep him around. That's also where you run into touchy ground with bringing another #1 D-man back. Unless he's already signed a few years at a reasonable contract or on an entry level deal at least through the next year, you're going to run into the same cap issue you'd face keeping Letang.

Most people want him gone, it seems. Apparently he sucks, but will land an awesome return regardless. Thanks, Obama.

GSdrums87 wrote:Agreed, but we also have to do that in a fiscally sound way as well. It's not that we want Letang gone, it's that it's not feasible to keep him around. That's also where you run into touchy ground with bringing another #1 D-man back. Unless he's already signed a few years at a reasonable contract or on an entry level deal at least through the next year, you're going to run into the same cap issue you'd face keeping Letang.

Most people want him gone, it seems. Apparently he sucks, but will land an awesome return regardless. Thanks, Obama.

I'll be the first to admit I at his many gaffes this season, and am also a huge fan of those big trades and seeing big roster moves, regardless of the teams involved. That being said, if you can lock him up on the cheap, you do it. Plus it's not how we view him; it's how everyone else does.

DudeMan2766 wrote:Oh no! Is he alright? And Disco is a great name regardless of Bylsma's status with the team. Everyone just think I'm Italian now, since I like in Salt Lake and no one knows who Evgeni Malkin in.

Aw stop, he's genuinely concerned!

Yep... and the best part is, we don't have too many bears here in the NYC area (Except the ones at the Russian Embassy)

Oh.

I get it.

Sorry, wasn't trying to embarrass anyone. Just try to indroduce some levity.

Gaucho wrote:We don't need picks. Should we trade Letang, we need a proven defenseman in return.

Finally...to trade a Norris caliber d-man for a draft pick (minus like a Lemieux, Crosby type pick, but that's unrealistic going the other way) is usually a quick way to find the unemployment line. It's an outrageous proposition...ridiculous...

I would assume the Staal trade would be the template for any Letang trade. 1st round + serviceable replacement + prospect

More than that. Unless the serviceable replacement is upgraded for the quality of player. 2nd line center vs. #1 elite PMD. The difference in value is astronomical.

Can't win consistently without a #1 PMD. Never happen, never has. It might be the most valuable player type, so to speak, out there. It's a franchise cornerstone. Has been that way since the forward pass was liberalized and utilized.

Is Paul Martin and Simon Despres enough of a PMD to satiate the need for one or do they need to replace Letang with a Letang-lite?

No, I don't believe so. Paul Martin is a top-notch #2. But he's a two-way defenseman, not an elite puck-mover. Very good puck rusher, but doesn't possess the same qualities in passing.

Simon Despres will likely never be a #1. Could be a very good complimentary piece. Perhaps even a Martin replacement down the line if we get lucky. Let's see what direction he is pushed in terms of his development.

Importance now becomes inventory vs. acquirable assets if Letang does not have a future here.

You cannot settle in a situation like this. It is a franchise breaker to lose a #1 d-man of Letang's caliber. And I know we're a little salty because he's not Lidstrom and all that noise, and I respect that, he can be frustrating at times. I'm sure in 1983 some Oilers fan said somewhere, "we can't keep going on like this with Coffey...if only we had Langway..." Now, that's not comparing Letang to Coffey, but it's the idea of that #1 PMD. Note the effects on even the best player in the history of hockey:

Gretzky led the league in points for 8 straight seasons. In 1987 (the last year with Coffey on the Oilers), he led the league with 183 points, in second place was his linemate (Jari Kurri) with 108, then another teammate in Mark Messier at 107 and Mario Lemieux at 107. 71% more points than his next closest non-teammate.

Coffey leaves. Gretzky doesn't win the Art Ross for the first time that decade...his 149 points are still brilliant, but not only does it not need lead the league, it's barely above the pack, relative to Gretzky's previous exploits...Savard at 131, Hawerchuk had 121, Stastny at 111...in all that, 149 seems somewhat pedestrian (of course, he missed a few games, but still...). So, who led the league...Mario Lemieux with 168 points...and who was giving him the puck? Yup...weird. Coffey missed half the year, but was on a 119-point pace. Next season, healthy Coffey showed us what healthy Lemieux could do (that was Lemieux's 199 points in 76 games season).

Again, Letang is no Coffey. He's no Orr either (look at Esposito, with and without). But that's the importance to an offensive-minded team.

To give that away for a draft pick is ridiculous. I can't answer what it would exactly take, but I know what I wouldn't like back...there's no answer in this draft as far as I'm concerned. I don't care for Seth Jones all that much (really good, but not Letang good by any stretch) and the rest of the d-men largely have some sort of glaring weakness.

Now, is it essential for this organization to be getting another d-man of quality back? Well...what do we have...can Derrick Pouliot or Olli Maatta (namely, the former) do anything to help our cause...? I don't know that yet. It's a shame he won't turn pro next year where we could get a better idea of what we really have...that's a bold move to trust the organization's hopes to a draft pick that no one here likes because of a made-up number. To me, he reminds me of Brian Campbell when he was young. That's a #1 PMD. Will he ever reach that lofty status, I don't know, I wish I did, Shero wishes he did too.

But depending on the market we might have to make that leap of faith...eventually...

In any event though, it's not totally realistic for now. The team has a window in which to win and it's wide open. Now is not the time to be entrusting the keys to castle to a 19 year old. Now is also not the time to be moving your #1 PMD for a hill of magic beans...

The problem with a player like Letang and the whole situation is you never get back full value for what you gave up. There's no realistic scenario where we trade Letang for Doughty or Letang for Pietrangelo...it's not a video game. That can't happen.

Like you brought up with Jordan Staal, you settle a little bit (Sutter, a third liner) and you get a draft pick (hope to make up the difference). We noticed Staal's departure this year and the effect it had (well, hopefully we did...Staal did a lot of heavy lifting for us, with all due respect to Sutter)...that was a third line center for us...can you imagine the difference between having a #1 d-man and not having one!

The Flyers notice...Kimmo Timonen (their Paul Martin) had to lead their transition attack...second in line were Luke Schenn (can't pass) and Braydon Coburn (head up ass)...now look at their ES scoring from 2011 and 2012 to 2013...can't be an offensive team and not have a #1 PMD. I'm gonna say that about 250 to 400 times this summer I think on here, so I better copy and paste it now, but you can't do it...

I don't want to lose the asset, I don't want to lose the asset for nothing, but it's a tough piece to move if a reasonable deal can't be worked out...we might just have to let it ride and hope we win the Cup in 2014. But there's a long way to go before then, so let's not panic...much more to discuss other than Letang as well, especially in this Malkin thread...

i think 7 mill is right about where we could keep letang. at that price, i suppose we could still fill a lineup, provided the following happens:

-the salary cap goes up 2 or 3 mill-orpik takes a small pay cut-we don't re-sign murray for more than 1 year-we fill the cooke and TK spots with about 3.5 mill in salary-we don't pay 1.1 million for a guy like tanner glass next summer. -sutter doesn't get much of a raise (and i don't think he'll warrant one. if he wants over 3 mill, good luck somewhere else)

implications...-the 4th line will continue to be big spoonful of nothing-same with the 3rd line, but you'll see a few more goals-we fill the defense with our prospects-we get like 7 mill to fill the duper/kunitz spots...maybe with duper and kunitz

mikey287 wrote:Finally...to trade a Norris caliber d-man for a draft pick (minus like a Lemieux, Crosby type pick, but that's unrealistic going the other way) is usually a quick way to find the unemployment line. It's an outrageous proposition...ridiculous...

I would assume the Staal trade would be the template for any Letang trade. 1st round + serviceable replacement + prospect

More than that. Unless the serviceable replacement is upgraded for the quality of player. 2nd line center vs. #1 elite PMD. The difference in value is astronomical.

Can't win consistently without a #1 PMD. Never happen, never has. It might be the most valuable player type, so to speak, out there. It's a franchise cornerstone. Has been that way since the forward pass was liberalized and utilized.

Is Paul Martin and Simon Despres enough of a PMD to satiate the need for one or do they need to replace Letang with a Letang-lite?

No, I don't believe so. Paul Martin is a top-notch #2. But he's a two-way defenseman, not an elite puck-mover. Very good puck rusher, but doesn't possess the same qualities in passing.

The last two playoff series losses have been, in my opinion, the Penguins desire to play a truly complicated game. Nothing Letang does is simple; he cannot make simple passes on the PP, he cannot exit the zone like a normal defenseman, he does not evade forecheckers like a logical defenseman. Years ago, he stated his goal of simulating Lidstrom's game; he has become anything but that. While, yes, there are peaks of monumental brilliance, his valleys are similarly awful. When it's bad, it's the worst. Do I think he's replaceable? No, not by anyone in the League. Do I think he's necessary? Absolutely not.

I actually put a lot of blame on Bylsma for being too soft on him. Letang could benefit from a coach like Randy Carlyle or Barry Trotz or Mike Babcock because they can make him accountable. Unless Bylsma is really ready to become a head coach and not a player with authority, Kris Letang will never reach his potential here.

As for Paul Martin and Simon Despres, I think Martin is more than capable to be the offensive replacement. He had six goals in in 34 games this year and showed poise on the PP. The beautiful thing about having Sid and Geno is you don't need anymore flash on the point; you just need someone willing to take a shot and both Martin and Despres have shown they can do that.