3D Guns Will Increase ‘Gun Violence’ in Heavily Gun-Controlled States

“I am very concerned about the ability of large numbers of people being able to make their own guns with 3D printers. Our system for keeping guns from dangerous people is laid on a foundation of accountability by those who sell guns and who buy them.

“Making it easy for criminals and gun traffickers to by-pass these laws by making, selling and using guns made with 3D printers would increase gun violence, at least in states where gun laws are strong enough to curb illegal gun sales and possession.” – Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research professor Daniel Webster in Does anyone in the Cleveland area care about 3D-printed guns? [via cleveland.com]

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I think everyone keeps missing their point. Their concern isn’t necessarily that individual criminals are going to be making their own guns but rather a new black market business will pop up. The “New Willy” will buy printers to make 3D guns to sell out of his trunk.

Which is certainly going to happen somewhere. But it’s not like it’s gonna be buy 3 crack rocks and get a ghost gun for free on every street corner. And remember, they think their laws actually stop criminals instead of creating them.

This is all stupid because having gun plans doesn’t give you a gun. You still need to know HOW To make a gun. This is not hard but not trivial. Gun plans were on the Internet before all of this and they will remain after this. FOSSCAD has never been taken down and they continue to design and release gun designs. This hysteria is entirely politically manufactured.

The data does not seem readily available, but it’s likely that criminals are buying stolen guns for $25 or $50. Who would want to try to compete with that with a 3D printer or miller? There’s no business case.

Yes it would ! To build any gun, let alone 3D requires knowledge of firearms, hand tool skills, and time. For 3D, you need computer knowledge of programming, CNC milling procedures, a computer that can handle the programs, and a 3D printer of size and quality to handle the tasks. And you still need metal working machines for final fit and assembly.
The standard THUG doesn’t have the education of a 3rd grader! He will buy finished conventional arms first he can file SN# off of or other weapons on underground that have been used in other crimes first.

No it’s not. I can go into a hardware store and buy a hand drill, some superglue, an endcap and two pieces of pipe and come up with a single shot slam fire shotgun. Anyone adult with an IQ over 70 could make it.

Yah because all the hood rats are going to have the 3D printer to make all those dangerous single shot liberator pistols…. god I wish people would just stop talking about things they know nothing about.

The whole of the gun-control movement is based on symbolic ideology. When gun-control advocates talk about “fully-simi-automatic-assault-weapons” the term may not have much meaning to us but it has specific meaning to gun-controllers.

Most ghetto rats couldn’t even spell PC and would only know how to use a Playstation or Xbox.

So they are going to spend hundreds of dollars on a computer that could run the software, thousands of dollars on a 3D printer that could produce the guns, and hundreds to thousands on the CAD software to make a dangerous-to-use single shot handgun? I don’t think so. It would be easier to get their friend’s cousin’s girlfriend to straw purchase and deliver.

Very well could be possible, since it’s the gun control laws that prevent the law-abiding from arming and defending themselves. Just as it is now, only the criminals will have guns. This does not matter if they are steel manufactured by Smith & Wesson, or plastic, melted into shape in someone’s basement.

This evolution in technology just exacerbates the centuries-old problem: trying to restrict access is doomed to fail.

I am very concerned about the fact that 1,000 Americans are murdered every day by healthcare “Professionals”.
Are docs lazy, incompetent, stupid or simply wasting too much time worry about guns to do their job correctly ?

Doctors and other healthcare professionals may cause people to die due to negligence; that is not murder. If you’re going to use the term, use it correctly or the Libs will shred you. They are the only ones, in their minds, who can use the terms loosely and inaccurately and still have credibility; we cannot.
To use the word murder implies intent on the part of the person committing an act of violence; when one commits an act of negligence, there is no intent to harm even though harm may occur. Going by your definition of murder, drunk or distracted drivers commit murder; teen drivers commit murder when they misjudge and someone dies.
Not the way it works. Should all gun accidents be prosecuted as having intent to kill or negligence? That, my friend, is but one difference between murder and manslaughter.

Nah… My mother in law died at UCONN Medical Center. She went in for a simple biopsy. They slipped and sliced her colon open. Then they didn’t give her antibiotics for five days. FIVE DAYS! When they finally decided to start antibiotics it took them 4 hours to figure out how to get the IV pump to work. She died there. Yeah… it was murder through neglect and incompetence.

Your command of language seems to be limited; from a legal standpoint, deaths due to negligence or incompetence do NOT meet the standard of murder. However, your insistence on calling it that could meet the standard for slander and since you wrote it down, also for libel.

You can say whatever you want now. Words no longer matter. No one’s going to “shred” you for anything any more than you would. Watch the MEDIA for any amount of time and you will soon see that truth no longer matters. Pay attention to what’s going on around you. And yes health care workers fuck up all the time. To those affected it feels like murder.

Hey Bo, I’ll put my command of the language up against that of some arrogant, pontificating, blowhard, know it all, like you any day. I wasn’t writing a legal brief you moron. And although I’m not an attorney, at least I know that legal dictionarys don’t decide libel cases. Jury’s do. That’s something you don’t seem to have a handle on. Go piss up rope.

Check with an attorney but I believe the legal definition of the actions you describe is manslaughter which is different than murder. Manslaughter is someone doing something that a reasonable person could foresee that it could cause harm or death; murder is the intentional killing negligence is not murder.
The argument you were giving is not much different than the Libs saying fully semi automatic weapon; there’s a difference in what those words mean & if you don’t get the terms right, you have no place in the discussion

It depends on the state that you are residing in. I have seen many cases where it has gone down as motor vehicle manslaughter because the person who was drinking could foresee that harm or death could come by what they were doing; that did not rise to the level of murder that has been the case even when an entire family was killed by a drunk driver in Oklahoma. I should’ve said in Oklahoma in order for it to be murdered and they have to prove intent at least that’s what attorneys have told me

rA 15,
You are using the same logic that liberals use about every person who kills someone with a gun; they’re all lumped together; they are all crazy; they are all bad. not all physicians are that way; there are more good physicians by far than there are incompetent ones; there are more good cops than there are bad cops except for maybe Chicago (that’s a joke, albeit a poor one.) When you say things like what you put yourself on the same level with the very people who are trying to get our guns taken away from us because you use their same tactics. How are you different than they are?

More like Doctors are interacting with many, many sick and dying people daily, and many of them are doing so in ways that are inherently dangerous (surgery, dosing in hospitals, etc). Not that they can’t get better, by any means, but doctoring has a lot of risks, which is why it’s better to have as little of it as possible (not saying to avoid annuals, vaccines, and go when necessary, mind, but minimal intervention is better). Best to avoid hospitals unless you have to go, and I have that on authority from family with direct experience.

They are essentially saying that their respective states have a majority population of criminals,of insufficient character and impulse control to be trusted with a Sport.
They sound like some WW2 Nazi Occupation administrator preparing the next ” Alles Is Ordung” missive.

Way easier and cheaper to get someone else to buy a gun for you…but why let logic cloud your judgement.
As far as I know…no 3D printed gun has yet been confiscated from a criminal or found at a crime scene.
Maybe when printers using metal are cheap and readily available it may be a problem.
Criminals will always find a way around bans and restrictions…just like they did with alcohol and illegal drugs.
No way to put the genie back in the lamp.

If you want a gun to commit crimes with, it’s far easier to acquire by illegal means one of the already 400 million plus firearms already ready to use in this country, than to set up a $500 machine, tune it, and do a 30 hour liberator print.

$500.00 machine? Try adding a zero to the end of that. A good machine can easily cost 3K or more. Add to that the cost of the spooled plastic, metal, or whatever material is used, plus the download fee for the blueprint.

I don’t think many crimes are going to be committed with 3D-printed firearms. It’s easier to steal a conventional gun than to bother with getting a 3D printer set-up to use. Of course, professor numbnuts here is worried about what effect they’ll have on high-crime areas with tight gun control. He answered his own question without even realizing it. If laws regarding conventional firearms don’t reduce crime, how would a law against 3D-printed guns make any difference?

Actually this will increase violence in gun controlled areas just like is happening in London. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, its no different in gun free zones where just one crappy 3D gun with one shot will make you more powerful then any of the unarmed subjects. This is all in accordance with the natural order the stupid and weak will be victimized and killed more readily then the armed thus serve as a sacrificial anode to the rest of free ship.

3D printing is not a plug and play operation. you will need to tune your printer to find it’s “sweet spot”, which includes; material, temp, speed, infill, support, adhesion, positioning, scale,,,
Then you need to learn the symptoms and fixes to be able to tweak the settings when running. there will be times you can’t fix the problem and have to abort a 30 hour print after 20+hours, and start again.
my learning curve was 2 weeks and a trashcan filled with failed prints.
the liberator took 30 hours to print I must admit it’s cool and a conversion piece, I won’t see if it works because if I need a gun, a Glock 22 would be the wiser choice.

Does “professor” even mean anything, any more? I’d love to challenge this dipshit to a bet. He can quantify his BS as to “murders will increase XX% within Y years”, and I will personally bet him $10,000 that he is wrong. And, just to increase my profit margins, I’ll bet anyone else that he would never accept that bet, because he knows full well he is talking pure bullshit.

I own a printer, they’re a huge pita to maintain. There is literally not enough time in a week to print enough liberators to match a hipoint with a full mag. I printed one for myself, but I don’t plan on shooting it. I’ve gone through several ar lowers as well. If I was making my own gun it would be a slam fire shotgun. Or a pvc bow lol

Exactly what “states where gun laws are strong enough to curb illegal gun sales and possession” are those? The states with the most “gun safety” (haha) laws are the ones with the strongest black market for illegal gun sales and possession.

The thing that amazes me is that Daniel Webster the Director of the Center for Gun Policy and Research at Johns Hopkins University, doesn’t know any more about guns than this! Or is he dishonest and just pandering to the other gun grabbers?

I am currently planning a Glock 34 build. I was originally going to use a Polymer 80 lower, but I found a stripped Glock OEM frame for $40 on GunBroker, which is less than half the price of a P80. But let’s look at what’s involved in building one from scratch, going the eBay route—–

Polymer 80 lower—$113 at Centerfire Systems

Slide—-cheapest on eBay I can find is $150

Slide completion kit—$119, and it’s TiN, to boot!

Barrel—I’m sure an OEM used barrel would be cheaper, but figure $100

Lower parts kit—$53.94

Sights—OEM sights are about $14 on Glockstore

One magazine, to make it functional—$15 for an ETS mag on GunMagWarehouse.

That comes to $564.94 before factoring in shipping cost, and of course, some of these could be done more cheaply by finding a complete slide or used OEM parts, but that’s still a chunk of change, and a lot of time. It’s not like criminal-types are sitting on huge stockpiles of Glock parts. There are far cheaper handgun options out there for the criminally minded. They are all sitting on a stolen gun pipeline, not to mention the black market firearms which are smuggled in from the Philippines and across the Mexican border. I guarantee you if drugs are coming across, guns are too.

Anybody who wants a gun in America, felony or not, can find one if they have enough money and motivation. Gun restrictions certainly aren’t working in Chicago, and it’s not like those fellas are packing P80s….

the only thing to consider for these rocket-scientists is WILL THIS THING BLOW MY HAND OFF???? the gun is easy,it is the power of the ammo that they have to worry about. the reduced load ammo is not readily available,the average pot-smoker or heroin popper has not got the brain wrinkles to come up with a safe load without a truck-load of blown-up samples.MAYBE THIS IS A GOOD THING TO GET RID OF THE RIF-RAF GANGSTERS…

Have any of these people ever heard of a zip gun. This is not a new thing. I guess it would be more cool and high tech to use a 3D printer but the same basic thing can be done in metal shop in high school. I’m an OFWG. Does high school even have metal shop any more ?
The problem for the criminal is also the same. After you fire your one or two rounds, it better be over or you’re in trouble. An illegal handgun with 6-17 rounds would be a much better choice.
Only an idiot would bring a 3D gun to a gunfight.

This all can be summed up in accountability. We are and have been for some time on a path of unacceptable behavior. As a gun proponent I support the ability to own and carry a firearm if you choose. But with that just like other rights there needs to be accountability to the society you live in. Failure to have any accountability is a very dangerous course to be going down.

I agree completely. You should be accountable for every round you shoot. Aiming at people who are not a threat is also frowned upon. Other than that – have a ball, buy, own, carry and responsibly use anything you want. It is your right.

OK, tell you what… you want accountability? I won’t shoot anyone who isn’t trying to harm me or my family.

There you go – that’s every ounce of “accountability” I owe to this fvcked up “society”, no matter whether I use a Liberator, a 1911, a Garand, or an M1 Abrams. Whether it has a serial number or not. Whether I bought it from someone or built it from scratch. Are you getting the picture yet?

Does my pseudonym ring a bell? Anyone? It’s actually 4 words – say them slowly in order to let the meaning sink in… Failure to understand the consequences of messing with gun owners is a very dangerous course to be going down. Let’s hope the Left figures that out before it’s too late.

Exactly what did I say that is ridiculous? More ridiculous than black-robed tyrants spending 80 years telling us that “Shall Not Be Infringed” actually means that all manner of infringements are not only possible, but necessary?

Has the 2A been amended while I wasn’t looking? Does it now state that the RTKBA shall not be infringed further than necessary to ensure proper accountability?

Hmmmm, didn’t think so. No, you and your notion of “accountability” is what’s truly ridiculous. As in the original meaning of the word, “something worthy of ridicule”.

As I said before, I won’t shoot people who don’t need shooting – that’s being accountable. Beyond that, why should it matter to you, or anyone, what weapon(s) I own and how they were produced?

I’m wondering if after the ER receives a dozen or so cases of hands being partially blown off, this whole thing for the criminal element might blow over?
There’s probably gonna be some jerk out there with a box of 357 +P, that wants to experiment a little.

To be fair, the Democrats have a point in that this will increase black market sales. Once illegal distributors figure out that they can just get a mini ghost gunner 2 CNC machine they are going to set up shop in some guys house and bust out 1911s all day.

That being said, this isn’t some magical situation and it is what always happens when innovation is able to overcome government regulation. The drug war is a failure, the war on guns is a failure, and the war on 3D printed guns will also be a failure. The answer to all this has been and will always be more freedom. Allow people to buy whatever guns they want, allow people to carry whatever guns they want, and allow people to defend their property with deadly force if needed. The government will never be able to ban guns but a properly armed population will make criminals think twice about using violence when there is an armed civilian in every shop they plan to rob.

Seems like I remember that concealed was going to be the end of society. Then the 50 cal. rifles were going to be the end of society, then the black rifles were going to be the end of society. Now 3 d printers, everyone will be building Abrams tanks and that will be the end of society. Wonder how much an Abrams take made from plastic weighs ? Mine will have a catalytic converter so I can save the planet. A full auto mounted on the turret that shoots plastic straws should be good.

Plastic straws will probably be banned by the end of the year. You might be able get some of the new +P straws though. These have an incredible muzzle velocity of 200 FPS, however it tapers off to around 7 or 8 FPS at 10 yards.

It doesn’t make economical sense now. Ban guns on open market and watch the prices skyrocket. At high enough price it will be a good business. Black market will take up the slack of demand where government chokes the supply. Always did, always will.

If some popular product or service got illegal overnight, expect criminals to start dealing in it, whatever it might be. Prostitution, booze, gambling, guns or AAA batteries – if people want it and .gov forbids legal supply, it doesn’t disappear. It moves to black market.

“I am very concerned about the ability of large numbers of people being able to make their own guns with 3D printers. Our system for keeping guns from dangerous people is laid on a foundation of accountability by those who sell guns and who buy them.”

“How’s that working out for you? Actually, pretty well for you, I mean for the rest of us, who have to live — or try to live — under this ‘system?”

“Making it easy for criminals and gun traffickers to by-pass these laws by making, selling and using guns made with 3D printers would increase gun violence, at least in states where gun laws are strong enough to curb illegal gun sales and possession.”

Indeed, gun prohibitions gets about the same traction as drub prohibitions, meaning little to none, with the same kinds of results, meaning enriching cartels and organized criminal enterprises, burdening people who behave lawfully, and increasing costs and risks to people who use the banned stuff anyway. Plus police, legislative, and administrative corruption, of course.

Mr. Webster should look up “unintended consequences.”

Now, I don’t want to get off on a rant here, but … answering the question used as a title: “Does anyone in the Cleveland area care about 3D-printed guns?

Yes, indeed many people care about 3D-printed guns. People who would like a gun. People curious about what 3D printers can do. People experimenting to develop the printing technology, materials, and designs. People who use and repair guns — 3D-printed replacement parts on demand is kind of the Utopian dream for anyone who uses a gizmo.

I care about 3D-printed guns. I think they are a step toward getting Star Trek-style replicators, and I want one of those.

As usual for folks calling to “Ban all the things!” Professor Dictionary there pays no attention at all to people his scheme would burden, who haven’t done anything wrong at all. Like, just pulling an example at random, however many children would have died at that “peace” picnic had peaceful, responsible concealed carry-guy not been there to stop the whack job.

We know his scheme would burden people who’ve done nothing wrong. It’s … what’s that term they use all the time … oh, right, “Common sense.”

When Professor Words can demonstrate that his scheme would reduce criminal violence from using 3D-printed guns, there’s something to talk about. When he can demonstrate that that reduction is bigger than the losses from the same scheme he may have a case. When he can demonstrate that his scheme produces more life, fun, and cool stuff than otherwise, he has a strong, humanistic case.

Meanwhile, I have a modest proposal. Given the risk of stampeding stupid, reactive politicritters into doing dumb things, we should probably ban the interwebz. Or writing. Or perhaps language. Since Professor Wordless in the Lion’s Den, there doubtless likes “compromise”, like on gun control, here’s mine on this speech-y stuff: “We’ll allow the talk-talk for vetted, trained people, you know the right people. We only want to keep all that dangerous word-stuff away from the wrong people. To make it easy, we’ll make a prohibited person list, starting with the good Professor, who will have to start looking for another job. No matter. No need to account for costs inflicted on innocent folks. It it saves only one life…

They just be scared that everyone around them is going to have a gun without their permission. Good people/politicians wouldn’t be scared of the American people having guns. Statistically and logically speaking, only bad people have to worry. Bad people are outnumbered by good people, which is why they want those good people to be disarmed, the balance of firepower needs to be in their favour for them to rule over the good people.

There is a difference between a “3 D gun” and a gun made by using a 3 D printer or what we used call “fast prototyping” back in the day. This is not new technology, just technology that has hit a consumer price point. For the record, all my guns are 3 D. Two dimensional guns are hard to pick up and tend to bend easily.

Get real people. This is all just a bunch of irrational hysteria, being spread by people who know NOTHING about firearms. But then that’s normal. Ignorance reigns supreme in any conversation about firearms these days. While you can 3D print a complete gun, it will be far from deadly. Yes, people have made and fired 3D printed plastic guns. But they used VERY LOW PRESSURE ammo which propel the bullet much slower than my pellet gun. Even a tiny little 22LR cartridge produces well over 20,000 PSI of pressure in the chamber. Temperatures are in the thousands of degrees. No plastic in existence can withstand that.
Load a commercial cartridge, any cartridge, into an all plastic gun and it’s going to make a very big boom. The gun will fly apart in pieces, taking part of the shooters hand with it. For a true modern firearm to function, all the mission critical parts must still be made from high grade steel, the hard way. All a 3D printer can get you are the frame and a few other parts. But you can make those today without a 3D printer. And don’t forget you still have to KNOW how a make and assemble a functioning firearm. The skill required is FAR beyond the capability of the average person.