::::::::Anybody have any other suggestions for the name, then? This page has to be moved eventually. - [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User Talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 15:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

::::::::Anybody have any other suggestions for the name, then? This page has to be moved eventually. - [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User Talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 15:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

As I recall the article on Effort Values states the Japanese term has always been "Base Stats". While I usually resist change, I also prefer using the correct or official terms. Yes, it will take some getting used to and I will need to make revisions in all my Pokémon related projects, but the term Species Stats is more accurate and Effort Values (which that discussion is probably on that page) should be referred to as Base Stats to coordinate with the Japanese fans and the recently revealed term that Game Freak uses. As for confusion for the users at large, "Base Stats" would automatically redirect to Species Stats and an explanation would be in the opening paragraph. Thus educating the user on the reason for the change in terms.[[User:White Phoenix|White Phoenix]] ([[User talk:White Phoenix|talk]]) 20:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

As I recall the article on Effort Values states the Japanese term has always been "Base Stats". While I usually resist change, I also prefer using the correct or official terms. Yes, it will take some getting used to and I will need to make revisions in all my Pokémon related projects, but the term Species Stats is more accurate and Effort Values (which that discussion is probably on that page) should be referred to as Base Stats to coordinate with the Japanese fans and the recently revealed term that Game Freak uses. As for confusion for the users at large, "Base Stats" would automatically redirect to Species Stats and an explanation would be in the opening paragraph. Thus educating the user on the reason for the change in terms.[[User:White Phoenix|White Phoenix]] ([[User talk:White Phoenix|talk]]) 20:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

+

:Somehow this gets complicated even further, given that one of the [[Pokémon_X_&_Pokémon_Y:_The_Official_Kalos_Region_Pokédex_&_Postgame_Adventure_Guide|official guides]] refers to a Pokémon's base stats as their "stat growth rates", meaning that yet again, the possibility of this page being moved to that name needs to be discussed. At this rate, hopefully we can get the page moved and sorted by the anniversary of the discussion being opened. - [[User:Blazios|<span style="color:navy">Blazios</span>]] [[User Talk:Blazios|<span style="color:limegreen"><sub>talk</sub></span>]] 12:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Pokemon Evolution and Base Stats?
Will a pokemon that evolved earlier be stronger, or have different stats (i.e., maxing out a Riolu's happiness and evolving it at level 2 as opposed to levelling it to raise its happiness and having it evolve at, say, 20) simply because of base stats? Riolu's base Attack is 70 while its base Special Attack is 35, while Lucario has 110 and 115, respectively. So if I evolve Riolu at level 20, will it have more attack than special attack, but lower overall stats than had I levelled it at 2?

Answer 1: it doesn't matter what level you evolve it because stats are retroactively recalculated after evolution to fit the new base stats

Answer 2:they would be exactly the same, not counting IVs, EVs and nature a riolu that evolved at level 2 and raised to level 20 will be exactly the same as a riolu which evolved at level 20

First off, is it true that "stats are retroactively recalculated after evolution"? And can someone try to add the answer to this article or the evoultion article (or both).
-Thanks --Lnk2128 17:29, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Base stats are inherent to a species. Every Lucario has the same base stats. IVs are different (those are determined at the Pokémon's in-game creation time, whether it's an encounter in battle, given by an NPC, or received in an egg), and EVs are determined by what Pokémon it battles.

To put it simply, if you cloned a level 1 Riolu, maxed its happiness, and rare candied it to level 2, evolving it and then battling six Bibarel, four Magneton, and two Pikachu to get it to level 20, it would be exactly the same as the level 1 Riolu you maxed the happiness of, trained it to level 20 against the EXACT SAME NUMBER of the EXACT SAME POKÉMON, and then evolved it. The problem is that cloning is really the only plausible way to have two Pokémon that start out the same, by having the exact same IVs, and training against the exact same Pokémon, aside from just using Rare Candies, is the only way to make sure EVs don't cause fluctuation in the stats (by level 20, EVs count for an up to 12-point difference in stats).

In short, no, it does not matter when you evolve a Pokémon. If it ends up at the same endpoint, that's always how it will be at that endpoint provided the same things are done on the way there (use Sun Stone, train against 50 Gastly, or train against the Gastly first, you'll still have the same Bellossom).

As for what the "retroactively recalculated" means, it means that the stat your Trapinch has in Attack does not carry over into its Vibrava form. For an Adamant natured Trapinch at level 35, with an IV of 26 in Attack and EVs of 200 in the same, its Attack is [((26 + 2 * 100 + (200/4)) * 35/100) + 5] * 1.1, or 111. This is just by leveling up, as you see that the stats are calculated when you do (though usually you just scroll through them without a thought, don't you? I do...). Now, on attaining level 35, its evolution into Vibrava is induced. Vibrava has only 70 base Attack, which causes your Pokémon to actually have a lower Attack stat until its evolution into Flygon (who has the same base Attack as Trapinch). As Vibrava, at level 35, the Pokémon has an Attack of [((26 + 2 * 70 + (200/4)) * 35/100) + 5] * 1.1, or 88.

It's only complicated because you can't see the values; you have to know them. Too bad there's no real way to tell your IVs except through online calculators. TTEchidna 21:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Now I understand it. The Trapinch example was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks alot ---Lnk2128 15:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't the blunt points of this info be included in the article? I've always tried to evolve my pokemon ASAP thinking they would gain better overall stats, and after specifically looking for this info I only found it after going though the pages on "forms," "evolution," "base stats" and their respective talk pages. --Barakku 17:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Just another question: Was it always like that, or has it changed through Generation? Yohrd 06:55, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It was always like that. The major discrepancy people see is the difference due to so many hidden values, such as IVs and EVs. Every Pokémon of a species has the same base stats, but it is highly likely that no two Pokémon of the same species which a particular trainer has will have the exact same stats, due to differences in those hidden values. Werdnae 07:55, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I remember hearing about something like this as a kid, with my gen 1 Red. Everyone kept telling me it's all about the homegrown pokemon from a low level, hearing vaguely about how "no two pokemon are the same in stats," fearing my pokemon were screwed forever. Reading over IVs, EVs, eevees, whathaveyous makes me think there really needs to be a section to bring all of this together. I don't want formulas for powergaming/ect, I want a simple understanding that THIS is something simple to ensure extra points in X stat, and THIS is all the crap you don't need to worry about (form changes instantly change stats, so you don't need to worry about evolving ASAP)--Barakku 02:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Level

As to what level are the base stats on this site calculated? Xtreme Dragon Master 23:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

They aren't that stats of a Pokémon at a particular level, thay are a base value taken from the game data. The game then puts the base stats into an equation (I don't know exactly what it does), which results in the stats you see when you check the Pokémon. BTW, you should sign on the same line as your comment, rather than on the next line. Werdnae 04:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Move

User SnorlaxMonster has suggested moving this page to Species Stat. I strongly oppose this. The term "base stat" has been in use by the community for over a decade and is the primary name for these stats, while the term "species stat" has never seen any kind of widespread usage, not by the community nor by official sources. It is unfortunate that Nintendo refuses to officially acknowledge the existence of EVs and instead called EVs base stats, but although that may cause some ambiguity, far more confusion will be caused by moving the article to a name that's not even in usage. Viskiv (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

We should be using official terms regardless of their use in fandom. For example, despite happiness being the term used and preferred by the fandom, once Friendship was shown to be the official term, it was changed. I don't know if I necessarily agree with Species Stat as this page's title, I do believe that if base stat is the official term for EVs (and they've been using this term for vitamins for quite a while), then that should be used as the title instead of EVs. Confusion can be mitigated by adding a "if you want the term used by fandom etc etc" at the top of the page. --It'sFunktastic~!話してください 19:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. We have used unofficial terms over official ones before (shiny Pokemon were officially "alternately colored" in Gen III) and moving the EVs article to a term that has widely been used for five generations to mean something else entirely would create more confusion than simply going with a disambiguation at the top of this page. In other words, in this case, switching creates confusion instead of curing it. Bwburke94 (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe it matters what the community calls it; a disambig notice should be plenty to avoid confusion from people typing "base stat" into the search bar. As for the suggested move itself, I strongly agree that this article needs to be moved away from "base stats" because that term now officially refers to something else. I'm not all that fond of "species stat" in particular, but I can't think of any better alternatives. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 21:09, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The difference in this case is that the the term "base stats" has both a fan meaning and an official meaning, while there was never anything officially called Shiny Pokémon back in Gen III. If a term has 2 meanings that contradict each other, surely the official meaning should take priority? - Blaziostalk 21:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no official term for what is currently referred to as base stats. This is an important point. Another fundamentally different point between this and happiness/friendship is that there was no existing use for Friendship that would easily be confused with something else. Yet another fundamentally different point is that friendship actually describes what happiness was - the meaning of base stats is actually the exact opposite of EVs. Viskiv (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not about people entering base stats into the search bar. It's the fact that every other website, and just about every single member of the entire Pokemon community who knows about EVs, uses the term EVs to refer to EVs. Bulbapedia referring to EVs as Base stats will certainly cause confusion whilst EVs are still the term in complete widespread use. Viskiv (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

...and when Gen 6 gets released and early adopters start using the official terms, others will gradually hop on board with them and when critical mass is reached, nothing will be confusing any more. It'll be exactly the same situation as previous generations when people got used to the Japanese names and then complained when they were updated to the English names. Boo hoo, whine whine, and then they got over it. Insisting on using old fan terms instead of new official terms will just prolong the whining; it won't make the official term go away. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not even remotely close to the same situation at all. See the three points I made about the happiness/friendship change - they all apply. In addition, English/Japanese names are a terrible comparison - it's really blatantly obvious that you wouldn't keep Japanese Pokemon names on an English database, there's not even a discussion to be had there. The definition of the words base and stats in this context mean the exact opposite of what the term EVs refer to, and on top of this there's already an existing term with an opposite meaning that causes overlap, which doesn't have any other term by which it could be referred to. THAT is what causes confusion, I'm not saying "never change anything because change causes confusion", which is what you seem to be arguing against. Viskiv (talk) 21:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You still seem to be ignoring the point that "base stats" is now the official term for what was formerly known as EVs, so it doesn't matter whether it's confusing or does not accurately describe the topic; we must use it (unless, as was suggested on Talk:Effort values, the press release is inaccurate to what the game will call them). Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 21:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The statement "official term for what was formerly known as EVs, so it doesn't matter whether it's confusing or does not accurately describe the topic; we must use it" reeks of utter bureaucratic inefficiency. There is no law of the universe dictating that that we must use it. If you believe we should use it, please focus on providing good arguments for why, not simply say that we must use it no matter what regardless of any downsides to using it - that is not even remotely conducive to the discussion. Viskiv (talk) 22:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Formerly, the style was to name articles based on whichever name a character was most "well known by". However, this created debate as to who judges which name is most commonly known, and thus created unnecessary conflict given how rarely a character is known to the English-speaking fanbase more commonly by anything but their English name. Hence, the style has since been abandoned.

"Base stats" is the official English name as far as we currently know. "Effort values" is the name they are most well known by. Thus, according to policy, we must use "base stats". If you disagree with that policy, then that is a discussion with a much larger scope than this particular article, and should be taken up with the admins directly. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

That manual of style entry was not made with something like this in mind, but rather characters of the anime. To blindly apply it to absolutely everything regardless of the circumstance, without stopping to consider whether it would actually improve Bulbapedia to do so, is exactly the kind of bureaucratic inefficiency I was talking about. Furthermore, why even have a discussion on this page? You could just move the page and be done with it, if it really is an absolute must. There's nothing to discuss here if that's how we're handling it. Viskiv (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

It was written with characters in mind, but I believe it applies here too — it boils down to official name versus commonly-used name, which is the same issue we're disagreeing about here. I am not an admin, nor was I the person to add the move template; but if I did have the authority, I would have simply moved the "effort values" page in the first place because, yes, there's nothing to discuss about that. The thing to discuss is what the target name for the former "base stats" page should be. SnorlaxMonster suggested "species stats"; that doesn't ring nicely in my ear, but I can't think of anything better. ("Base stats (fan term)" is the best I can come up with, but I'd rather not use a parenthetical disambiguation if we don't need to.) No one else has made any suggestions. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 22:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

(resetting indent)I don't really think there is much of reason to discuss EVs-> Base stats. The official term should always take precedence. However, without a new title for this page, it can't happen. --It'sFunktastic~!話してください 22:41, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The thing is this simply isn't like other situations. I've given three reasons why, compared to something like the Happiness --> Friendship change, it would be detrimental to the quality of Bulbapedia to make this change. What is the point of enforcing a manual of style if you can't provide any reasons for why it would be beneficial to Bulbapedia to do so in this instance? The individual circumstances need to be considered, because there are so many things different from a situation like this compared to a situation like Japanese/English names.

"While Wikipedia's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused. Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies. If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them. Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, not by tightly sticking to rules and procedures. Furthermore, policies and guidelines themselves may be changed to reflect evolving consensus."

I realise that this is Bulbapedia, not Wikipedia, but I see no reason that the same concepts shouldn't apply. There is nothing to be gained by enforcing rules for the sake of rules rather than for the sake of improving Bulbapedia. So far nobody has even tried to provide an argument for WHY using the official term would be better even with the downsides of the unique circumstances in mind. Viskiv (talk) 22:52, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Fans who know about EVs will probably be well-informed enough to know that Gen 6 renamed them (and if they aren't, they should be smart enough to look at the disambig notice at the top saying see X other page if you wanted Y topic), while fans who didn't know about them will come to BP looking for base stats because that's the official term used in-game. I see absolutely no reason official names supplemented by disambig notices wouldn't be the optimal arrangement. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 22:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

As someone noted on the Effort values discussion page, this actually wasn't just a mistake by the writers of a press release - it's actually how EVs have been officially referred to since Ruby and Sapphire. Therefore, EVs were not named base stats specifically in Generation VI - and, despite the fact that they've been officially referred to as base stats for ten years, the entirety of the community still refers to them as EVs. Given that every single other website and every single member of the community still refers to them as EVs, moving them to Base stats simply causes a lot of unnecessary confusion. If the community does move to adopt the new terminology your stance would make more sense to me, but as is, they are completely universally referred to as EVs everywhere except in a couple of item descriptions and now a press release. Especially given the overlap with an existing term that refers to something that means the opposite and has no alternative, it makes far, far more sense to have the page under Effort values with a note that Nintendo has referred to them as base stats than the other way around, which would certainly cause confusion even with a disambiguation notice. Viskiv (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree. The pages were where they were before because nobody took the time to notice that an official term had been created; you can't argue that things should stay the same because everyone used to be okay with the situation. The situation has changed: the values and the terminology for them are both becoming more visible in official media, which means it is becoming more urgent for us to use the official terms. In adopting new terminology, Bulbapedia is not a follower of the whims of the fan community, but a leader in adopting official terms regardless of their popularity or lackthereof. We are not Wikipedia and, unlike them, we do not go by common names when we are aware that they differ from official names. The values formerly known as EVs are "base stats". Period. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Nobody ever noticed, in ten years, that EVs had been referred to as base stats in-game? That doesn't seem very plausible. My argument is not even remotely close to being based on "things should stay the same because everybody used to be okay with it", again, you seem to be arguing against things I haven't said. I brought up the point that the community has been using EVs for ten years despite it being officially referred to as base stats because you seemed to assume, earlier in the discussion, that it was a given that the community would eventually adopt the "new" terminology. After that point, you go back into suggesting that we should use official terms just because they're official without explaining why it's better, which, again, is just bureaucratic inefficiency that leads to a lesser quality. Viskiv (talk) 23:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

It's entirely plausible and also true that nobody noticed, or at least nobody spoke up to bring it to the attention of the rest of us. Since the new term will be used in-game and the old one has never been, of course it's a given that the community will eventually adopt the new terminology, because otherwise no newbies will be able to know what anybody's talking about. I cannot fathom why you are so against following policy when doing so will not be harmful at all. Official name with a disambiguating note at the top. How is that not inherently better than an unofficial name? Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Once again - base stats has been used in-game for ten years. How is it a given that the community will adopt it this generation, when they haven't for the last three generations that it's been used in-game? Your assertion that it's a fact that nobody noticed for ten years is frankly absurd. It's also absurd that you suggest no new players are capable of finding out what people are talking about when they refer to EVs, considering this hasn't changed in ten years. When players go to learn about the hidden values that affect their stats, it's much easier for them to learn what they are when everything refers to them by one name, instead of every single person and website except one referring to them by one name while one particular website refers to them by a completely different term that means the opposite and also describes the value inaccurately. That is why it's worse - it causes so much more confusion than just having the page under Effort values does. If the community does shift to using base stats as the term for EVs with a new term for base stats, then I would absolutely agree with you - but just assuming that it's a given when it hasn't yet happened after ten years and making changes that will cause confusion now based on that assumption is not something I can agree with. Viskiv (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I am for the move. Bulbapedia should always reflect the current, official terminology used. The community will adapt to the official terms as they always do. There's no reason to keep the page at an inaccurate title simply on the basis that is has been used for a long time. Things change, plain and simple. CrystalTalian 00:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

You are ignoring my points in exactly the same way as Pumpkinking0192... you say, as if it were a fact, that "the community will adapt to the official terms as they always do" - but the only adaptation that the community has made to this official term over the past ten years is to completely disregard it and instead use a term that actually makes sense. And, yet again, the argument here is not to keep it just because it's been this way for a long time, but to keep it because changing it under these circumstances will only cause a lot of unnecessary confusion. Viskiv (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

You're ignoring our point that "base stats" is canon and "EVs" is not. Canon is inherently superior to non-canon. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 00:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Canon is not inherently superior to non-canon in all situations without any consideration to context. I've asked you to explain why it's better in this specific case. I've given three points as to why it's not, but you seem to be incapable of explaining why it's better. Viskiv (talk) 00:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is inherently superior in all situations on Bulbapedia. If we can use a non-canon term when a canon one exists, we can just name any page anything we want. Anarchy! This is a professional-level wiki, not just any old fansite. We have standards. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 01:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I should point out that this is the first time that they've been referred to in more than just passing on an item description as base stats and, from the sounds of things, this will be the first time that the games themselves go into detail about them. It's something that Game Freak clearly want to start making more available to a wider audience, meaning that this is really the first time that the term has been all that relevant. The fact that there was already a fan meaning for base stats is likely a reason that people didn't make the change before now, though given that the term is clearly going to be used more often from official sources and within the fanbase (newer players), it seems odd to me to not make the change now. Besides, all links to EVs will still redirect to the page, so it shouldn't be nearly as confusing as you're making it out to be. This isn't about being better, it's about being correct. - Blaziostalk 01:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Hold on. What if they're not referring to EVs? What if they're just referring to base stats and how they can be increased (just like what the descriptions for the Vitamins etc say)? Here's how I see it:

From the "Understanding Stats" page:

"The rate at which these stats will grow depends on an underlying set of stats called base stats. Each of the six main stats has its own base stat."

That's not talking about EVs, that's talking about base stats. The Super Training page mentions how a Pokemon can increase its base stats (not its stats, but the actual underlying base stats) with Super Training. It does not say something like "with Super Training, a Pokemon can gain certain points called base stats that increase its stats". It simply says that their base stats can be raised, not exactly what raises them (again, just like the Vitamin descriptions etc).

From the Effort-o-Meter section on the "Super Training" page:

"Each Pokémon has some stats that will grow more easily than others and some stats that will take more work to raise. The inside (green) part of the Effort-o-Meter graph shows the stat levels relevant to each Pokémon species. The outside (yellow) part of the graph shows the base stat increases that your Pokémon has achieved through Super Training."

The green part is a Pokemon's base stat, and the yellow part is the base stat increases. That is, the yellow part shows how many effort values the Pokemon has gained, it's just not mentioned by name. To sum it up, I think Nintendo is just not using a name for what we know as "Effort Values", they just use the term "base stat increases", with "increases" being the "effort values". I therefore think the term "effort values" should stay and Base Stat not moved. Or, if anything, have Effort Values moved to something like "Base Stat increases". Angela-Samshi (talk) 01:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The use of the term "stat levels" in the Effort-o-Meter makes it clear that they've now renamed both things, so leaving "base stats" at its current location is not an option. You've raised a valid point, though; with this new information, it seems like "base stats" are now the term Nintendo's using for the combined "stat levels" + "base stat increases"/"EVs"/whatever. Nintendo's not being too clear on this, though. Maybe "base stats" should be an umbrella/disambiguation page directing users to "stat levels" and whatever the term we use for EVs is? Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 01:40, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Personally I took the "increases that your Pokémon has achieved through Super Training" to imply that the meter shows the base stats gained from Super Training only more than it being than what you've suggested. Besides, while base stat increases is hardly eloquent, it could just as easily have been meant to be referring to increases from 0 base stats for all we know. - Blaziostalk 01:53, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Addressing this bit from Pumpkinking0192...

"Yes, it is inherently superior in all situations on Bulbapedia. If we can use a non-canon term when a canon one exists, we can just name any page anything we want. Anarchy! This is a professional-level wiki, not just any old fansite. We have standards."

This is a blatant strawman argument if I've ever seen one. I'm starting to believe this is intentional - this is the third time you've addressed an argument I never made while completely ignoring the argument I did make. I gave several reasons as to why, in this particular instance, it would be better for Bulbapedia to retain the current names. The only claim you've even attempted to make to explain why it would be better to use the official term was that you assumed that it was a given that the community would move to the "new" terminology that's been around for ten years and apparently just wasn't noticed before now, and beyond that questionable assumption it's been nothing but "official is better no matter what, because I say it is". If that's the best explanation you can offer up, have fun with your "standards" - personally, I prefer a higher standard of encyclopedia quality over a higher standard of bureaucratic rule enforcement, but that's just me. Viskiv (talk) 05:31, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not just me who says official is better. Look at both of the staff members who have posted on this page: Funktastic, a Junior Administrator, says, "We should be using official terms regardless of their use in fandom. [...] The official term should always take precedence.". Crystal Talian, an Administrator, says, "Bulbapedia should always reflect the current, official terminology used. The community will adapt to the official terms as they always do." This is a matter of Bulbapedia policy, not something to be messed around with on a whim because some guy on a talk page can use pretty rhetorical terms to try to convince everyone that their preferred fanon term is better. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 05:42, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

And they, too, never addressed my points nor provided a reason as to why official is better in this scenario. I brought this up and backed it with logical reasoning because I feel it is better for the quality of Bulbapedia - I am not acting "on a whim". I liked the part where you attacked a strawman and when I called you out on it, you dismissed it as a "pretty rhetoric term". I'll take using "pretty rhetoric terms" over using logical fallacies like you do. Even still you don't address why the official term would be better. It is clear to me that you have no intentions of doing so, so I will take my leave from this conversation, since we are aiming for incompatible goals. My final thoughts on the subject... I did provide a quote from Wikipedia above which explains, quite excellently, the concept of "Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy" - yet you are still interested only in enforcing policy to the letter with no consideration for circumstance, ostensibly in the name of professionalism. I guess Bulbapedia is a cut above Wikipedia when it comes to being a professional encyclopedia. Viskiv (talk) 06:15, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

We don't have to specify why official is better in this scenario because it is better in all scenarios. Bulbapedia reports what is in the game first and foremost and what the fan community does only as a supplementary scope. Whatever this gets renamed to, it will be the term that will be used in the game, which is therefore inherently more canonical than what is not in the game. I'm glad you've realized your goals are incompatible with Bulbapedia's prioritization of canon over widespread usage, which is something we can do and Wikipedia can't because Pokémon has a discernable canon and the real world doesn't. You call my preferences bureaucracy, I call them a basic understanding of the tenets of canonicity. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 06:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

So to address a few things:

The fact that vitamins and Friendship-raising Berries have referred to EVs as "base stats" for a long time is precisely why this page should have already been moved. The reason this page needs to be moved now in particular though is that the term is going to be used a lot in-game, so calling this page "base stats" is wrong and very confusing for people not familiar with the online community.

People are unhappy with the happiness/friendship example, so I'll provide a better one: Egg Groups. Egg Groups had official names in Stadium 2, but since then all strategy guides began referring to them with new names. When Pokédex 3D came out and used the new names, that was enough evidence in favour of the new names to move all the Egg Groups, despite the fandom virtually exclusively using the old names. Many of the new names were also shared with existing things (such as Grass (Egg Group)), but the pages were moved anyway.

Using official names exclusively is not an unnecessarily bureaucratic measure; instead, it prevents debates like this where people are attached to the old fan names. There is nothing wrong with using a fan term, as long as no official term exists; once one does, we should change to the official term. Likewise, if something has its official name changed, we should also change the way we refer to it, even if the old official term is more popular. --SnorlaxMonster 08:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The page is not moving until XY are released, and we can properly determine if there are now any official names. The way I read the Vitamins is that it's referring to the stat before temporary changes are taken into account. That is, the games are using "base" to refer to the stats before other modifications. The descriptions use "base" with a lowercase b, suggesting that they are using base simply as a word, not as an official term, in which case it would more than likely be capitalised. The use is required to clearly set them apart from in-battle stat boosting items, which are temporary effects. At this point, it looks more likely that EVs will get an official name, since they're now somewhat visible. The page will also not be moving to "Stat levels". That's a description, the graph shows the levels of the stats. Werdnae(talk) 22:15, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I should point out for future reference that the Japanese release seems to have referred to what was named base stats on the English site as Kiso points, which is what the Japanese have supposedly always called EVs. Obviously a moot point right now, though it may be something to keep in mind if the games don't clarify this any further. - Blaziostalk 23:05, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Pokemon Wiki has its page on EVs located at 努力値 (doryokuchi). For that matter, when I put きそポイント into Google most if not all of the hits refer to it as 努力値. It looks like they're in the same situation as us, then. Another thing to keep in mind, perhaps? Arcorann (talk) 01:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we should bring the Pokémon Wiki into this as they might have a different decision process, not to mention that neither wiki should base the name of their article on what the other does or doesn't do. --Super goku (talk) 04:01, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

The major problem with the argument that it must be renamed is that we have no policy for this specific situation. The happiness/friendship thing didn't transplant an existing page title, while the egg group pages all had "(Egg group)" at the end of their names anyway so transplanting wasn't a problem there. Plus the lack of capitalization makes me doubt this is an official term in the same way that "Ability" is - remember, the series capitalizes terms relating to game mechanics. At the very least, we should wait for October 12 before we definitively move this page, to ensure that "base stats" is used in a greater capacity than it has been in the last three generations.Bwburke94 (talk) 01:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Game mechanics are sometimes capitalized, but plenty aren't; not being capitalized has no significance. As for waiting until October 12: this is not a new name, this is an old name that is seeing increased usage making it unfeasible not to move it. --SnorlaxMonster 07:07, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Let me just add my input here, since I seems to have stumbled into this mess of a discussion. As far as "official" vs. "fan-made" terms go, I am pretty sure that the current names have been deemed official in the past (if I'm wrong, fine). Furthermore, I've seen multiple instances of the argument that if it's official, it must be changed even if the "official" term is wrong. Well, that's fairly contradictory in my opinion. This is all pre-release information, and it may very well have been a wording/translation mistake on the part of the people who put it out. If we were to call everything put out in "official" material canonical, then we'd be saying Steel resists Fire and Water, which the Prima Colosseum guide states. The point I'm trying to make here is that even the people at the very top of the chain in the making and information releasing of Pokémon games make mistakes. It would be much easier to wait until X and Y are out, because if it turns out the calling of EV's "base stats" was a mistake, and the pages end up being moved based on that, they'd only have to be moved back once the games are out, and that would mess up a ton of things in both directions because of the number of links that would need to be changed for a dual page move such as this. Schiffy (Speak to me|What I've done) 12:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

There are priorities in "officialness". In fact, this addresses two of your arguments at once: yes, game guides have been wrong about type effectiveness, and yes they have called EVs and IVs such, but the actual content of the games always trumps what any game guide says. The reason we know it was not a mistake to call EVs base stats is that they have used the term before, it's just seeing more use because EVs are having more attention drawn to them. --SnorlaxMonster 14:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Content of the actual games trumps all, which is why I'm saying wait for the games to actually come out (and since it's everywhere on the same day this will be much easier) rather than relying on some information given before October 12th. If the final product does indeed call what has been forever known as Effort Values "base stats" then so be it, the pages should be moved. But on the off chance that the information they have given us is a mistake, Bulbapedia would be caught in a mess of wikicode if the pages are moved prematurely. Trying to make heads or tales of this information in early September is a bad idea, I really can't stress this enough. Trying to predict something a little over a month away has a large chance to not end well. Schiffy (Speak to me|What I've done) 15:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that the games haven't come out yet: we know that they are called base stats because they have been called that in previous games. It is impossible for it to be a mistake, because there is precedent. The point is that most people hadn't noticed until pre-release information for X and Y came out. However, at present it certainly looks like we won't be moving the page until the games' release anyway. --SnorlaxMonster 15:37, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

My opinion is that once October 12 hits, we should check the game script to see how it refers to the values currently known as EVs. If it is completely unambiguous that it's "base stats", there is a possibility of the page being moved. Bulbapedia's policy has always been to only add 100% confirmed material, and the descriptions of the vitamins in generations III-V were ambiguous and could be referring to "base stats" as the stats at the beginning of battle before any stat changes are applied, e.g. something with 300 Attack having a "base stat" of 300 Attack. We should treat page moves, especially moves as important as this one, with the same 100% confirmation rule. Bwburke94 (talk) 03:22, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, game's out and it's pretty unambiguous that base stats are what EVs are now officially referred to as, meaning that this page is going to have to find a new home. - Blaziostalk 09:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I somewhat oppose the move, for two reasons:

We already use "base stats" for a species's base stat ratings.

"Base stats" could also refer to the final values shown on a Pokemon's status screen, which we know are a combination of five things.

Now it is true that the term "base stats" has been officially used in reference to vitamins and EV berries since Gen I (and III), but because (Super Training aside) the only thing you are shown is the final values, we don't know exactly what the official term is referring to. E.g. if you give a Vitamin to a Lv.40 Pokemon you are not told that it's a +10 boost to their EV's, you are told that their "base stat" increased -- and indeed, the value on the Summary screen shows a +1 boost. --Stratelier 04:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Mmm nope. "Base stats" are EVs, unambiguously. Go to Super Training and put a Pokemon through a training regime; the summary page afterward clearly says "Base stat increase: HP +4" (or whatever stat/value you're training). These +4s, +12s, +1s, etc add up to a maximum of 255 per stat and 510 total — they are what we once called EVs. No confusion, no ambiguity, no "we don't know exactly". End of story. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 04:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

You're not going to convince me personally of that any time soon :) especially when this usage of the term is precisely the opposite of what the community has called it for years and is flat out counter-intuitive (the biggest pointwise influence - and hindering Natures notwithstanding, absolute minimum values for any and all members of that species - is the species's base rating for each stat). But to check official sources:

The green area of the EV graph is referred to as the "stat levels relevant to each Pokémon species" (no actual term here), with the yellow called "base stat increases".

According to the game's electronic manual (p.28, Super Training):

The dark green area of the EV graph is referred to only as "the relative stat levels for a given kind of Pokemon" (again, no actual term here).

The yellow highlight is described as "how much your own Pokemon has improved each of its base stats."

However, the the vertical yellow bar at the right is described as the Pokemon's "overall progress in raising its stats" -- not 'base stats', just 'stats'.

Also, Pokedex 3D Pro refers to a species's base stats simply as "stats", where we know these are only the values for a species, not the final values for an individual.

And, of course, XY themselves:

"Base [stat]" is used extensively in Super Training messages.

"Base [stat]" is also used in reference to EV berries (since Gen III) and vitamins (since Gen I).

I agree that "base stats" occurs most often in Super Training, but I still believe that GF uses it as an umbrella term, to distinguish it from the final values on a Pokemon's summary screen (because those are scaled by level) and from temporary (in-battle) stat modifiers (which are still not visible in any fashion). I am not finding anything to explicitly contradict this. --Stratelier 19:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

PS - I have an alternate idea proposal: You know the dark green area in a Pokémon's EV graph that shows the relative values for their species? GF didn't have to include that on the graph in the first place; the EV graph could simply have been a set of bar meters (one for each stat) or a radial graph that starts at zero and increases outward with EV growth. However, including a representation of the species's natural statistical affinities is a great benefit to the player because it clearly informs them what those affinities actually are, making it easier to decide whether they should amplify an individual's strong point or strengthen a weak point.

Since both are shown on the same graph at the same time, we do not necessarily have to make a distinction between the two names; we could have base stats discuss both usages of the term. It's pretty clear that in the context of a whole species "base stats" refers to their natural statistical prowess (dark green area), while, at the same time, in the context of an individual Pokémon "base stats" refers to their EV's (yellow area). This also would not need to involve extensive renaming of the term across the wiki as a whole; Pokemon species pages could simply include a quick note like:

Base stats

This corresponds to the dark green area shown on a Pokemon's Effort-o-Meter and does not include increases gained through battles or Super Training.

I'll admit that I was a little hasty in declaring stat levels to be the official name, as it's only been mentioned once. However, the fact of the matter is, this page can't remain where it is. There is no room for interpretation within the game: Base stats refer to what the fandom called effort values. If you'll allow me to quote myself:

"Some facts: When Super Training, every time you complete a level, the Pokémon's "base stats" by a certain number. This number caps out at 252 and for every 4 base stats you've earned, the relevant stat at Level 100 increases by 1. I've also found items such as Juices in the Juice Shoppe in Lumiose that, for example, raise a Pokémon's "base Defense stat" by 6 which also shows up on the Effort-o-Meter. After defeating Pokémon, your base stats on the Effort-o-Meter increase slightly. Using Vitamins or Wings also increase the amount of base stats shown on the Effort-o-Meter and contribute towards the total limit. There are certain berries that reduce base stats and an item in Super Training called a Reset Bag that "Completely resets all of the base stats of a Pokémon", which decreases their stats accordingly as if they have 0 base stats."

Base stats refers to the stat increases only. I appreciate that this is going to be a big change to get used to. I'm sure that plenty of people won't even bother trying to adapt to this. However, this gen is the one where the greatest number of people will begin playing competitively, and I've already had to explain to enough people that yes, the games say that base stats refer to this but to the fandom it means something completely different and yes, that makes no sense.

Game Freak aren't just going to change the names again for no reason. This name is here to stay and I believe it's best to rip this plaster off quickly and get the pain over with than let it linger and cause even more confusion than it's causing right now.- Blaziostalk 20:27, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

To finalize my thoughts on this matter: In some RPG's you have stat-enhancing items that provide an immediate, fixed, one-time boost to the stat in question -- e.g. an item that gives you a +1 stat boost always gives you a flat +1 stat boost, regardless of your character's existing stats or level, with no further benefits. Pokemon is not one of those RPGs. Because the effect of EV's is scaled by the Pokemon's level, if you give a Lv.40 Pokemon a single vitamin (i.e. 10 EV's), you will immediately see a +1 increase to the stat; what you do not see is that this isn't a one-time buff but a +0.025 increase per level -- you get a down payment of +1 (at Lv.40) and an additional +1.5 divided across the next 60 levels up (for a total of +2.5 at Lv.100).

So, obviously GF needed a term for this other than stats, and they chose "base stats". Not the best name perhaps (unlike happiness/friendship this does conflict with an established usage by fans and third parties), but its presence in-game is non-negotiable ("base [stat]" in particular has been in use since Generation I's vitamins). I kind of agree with Arcorann in that I view them as a "loose descriptor" rather than a precise term with a precise meaning (remember, this is game for everyone, including kids -- loose descriptors abound!), and I ultimately view the whole snafu like this:

A Pokémon's base stats are a set of factors, not generally visible to the player, that influence how quickly a Pokemon's stats increase when it levels up. The term encompasses a variety of meanings depending on where it is used:

Base stats of a species

Each species of Pokemon has natural affinities toward certain stats over others, making them inherently stronger or weaker than another species at the same level: where a Lv.20 Pikachu may have a Special Attack stat of 25, a Lv.20 Raichu may have a Special Attack stat of 41, noticably stronger. This is the largest contributor to a Pokemon's overall stats at any given level, and is fixed for each Pokemon species; an individual Pokemon, across its lifetime, can change this value only via evolution to another species or if it posesses an alternate forme (or Mega Evolution) with different capabilities.

While not directly shown to the player, in Super Training the player can approximate these values by looking at the dark green area of that Pokemon's Effort-O-Meter.

Individual variation within a species

Every individual Pokemon has a hidden value for each stat, which is responsible for the differences in stats even between Pokemon of the same species and level as each other. These values can be inherited from one Pokemon to another via Pokemon breeding, but are otherwise assigned at random, and remain fixed for the lifetime of the individual. These are not directly exposed to the player, but certain NPC's may provide clues about a Pokemon's intriguing potential, referring to these values.

Base stats and Super Training

Popularly called effort values by fans, this is another hidden value for each stat, and is directly responsible for trained Pokemon posessing higher stats than wild Pokemon of the same species and level. Because these are the only factors that can be directly modified by the player, they are frequently referred to as the individual's base stats, especially in the context of Super Training which exposes these values for the first time in the series, as a yellow highlight on a Pokemon's Effort-O-Meter.

Nature

Each Pokemon has a specific Nature that provides a 10% boost to one stat and a 10% reduction to another; since Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver these stats are highlighted on the Pokemon's summary screen as red and blue, respectively.

Thoughts on this? It's just a quick mockup, but also sort of a compromise proposal between both sides. --Stratelier 00:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

As SnorlaxMonster stated on the Effort values discussion, the official guide explicitly states that a Pokémon's stats are composed of "The strengths of its species"(what we once called base stats), "The strengths of the individual"(what Masuda seemed to call innate abilities in the tweet he made about the Destiny Knot, but what we tend to call IVs), and "Its base stats for each stat". Nothing there or in the games implies that the term "base stats" refers to anything other than what the fandom traditionally called EVs.- Blaziostalk 09:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Target title for this page

Please use the above section for discussion on whether to move the page. This section is for what the page currently titled "base stats" should be moved to, assuming it is moved.

SnorlaxMonster suggested "species stats". My best idea is "base stats (fan term)", although I'd prefer not to need parenthetical disambiguation if we can help it. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to wait until we have a clear official term, if there is one. If not, I think "Species stats" is the most reasonable and closest to what was used on the official site. CrystalTalian 00:26, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

New page!"The inside (green) part of the Effort-o-Meter graph shows the stat levels relevant to each Pokémon species. The outside (yellow) part of the graph shows the base stat increases that your Pokémon has achieved through Super Training."

What the fans once called base stats are now officially known as stat levels, it would seem. That means that we can move this page to Stat levels and move Effort values to Base stats, yes? - Blaziostalk 01:29, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

That sounds canonical to me. Let's move base stats to stat levels. For the record, we also need to fix instances of "stat levels" where people have loosely used it to refer to stat modifiers throughout the wiki. See my response to Angela-Samshi in the above section regarding EVs → base stats. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 01:40, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

From my reading it's not clear whether Nintendo is using it as an actual term, or merely as a loose description. I believe that there is still too much ambiguity to fix that as the name at this point. Arcorann (talk) 02:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree with Blazios. This page simply calls them stats. Stat levels sounds like something that isn't outside the Effort-O-Meter's graph, so I serious doubt stat levels is the official term. Luna Tiger * the ArcToraph 02:51, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I misread (tired, sorry), but I stand by that they shouldn't be called stat levels unless the term is used more times than just once. Luna Tiger * the ArcToraph 03:11, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

For the record, I only suggested "species stats" because the page cannot stay here anymore and that was the best term I could come up with. From the single usage on the official site, I don't think "stat levels" is supposed to be the official term. However, I suppose it is the closest we do have to an official term, so I don't object to using it. --SnorlaxMonster 07:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with Blazios comment regarding moving Effort Values to Base Stats, mainly because Nintendo isn't being too clear about if they name "effort values" as "base stats" (the Pokemon gain "base stats" through ST) or if they're just not naming them at all (simply calling them "base stat increases", that is, the base stat has been raised). The official site is kind of ambiguous about this entire issue, though. However, the fact that it does mention "each of the six main stats has its own base stat" makes it sound like a "base stat" is a number that can be altered and not something that is gained. I suggest we wait until we have more infromation. The games aren't out yet, so imo there is no reason to rush. Angela-Samshi (talk) 11:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Having played quite a bit of the Super Training, while the game uses the term "base stats" often to refer to what we call EVs, I can't recall it giving a name to what we call base stats. They're certainly visible as the green-blue blob in the center of the "Effort-O-Meter", but I don't think (please do correct me if I'm just forgetting) the game gives a name.

Furthermore, the terms "EVs" and "base stats" are too ingrained in the vocabulary of the community, I believe, to be replaced in informal speech. People will know that "base stats" means EVs in-game, but "base stats" will still be used to describe the underlying numbers that determine the stats of a species. "Base stats", in this context, has always been a fan term, and will continue to be a fan term for the concept, even if Nintendo renames it.

If this page is moved, I believe "Base stats (fan term)" or similar is the correct title. If Nintendo makes up a new name for them (and implements it outside a press release), use that, but I don't think we need to make up another fan term to refer to a fan term that is still in use. Ninjask (talk) 01:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I think calling them "base stats (fan term)" is going to be incredibly confusing. I'd rather use a separate term for them altogether. The guidebook refers to them as "The strengths of its species", so I guess "species stats" isn't that unreasonable. --SnorlaxMonster 09:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I concur that there is effectively no official term for a species's base stat levels. The only game/app that makes them visible is Pokedex 3D, which simply calls them "stats" (if anything at all), and "stats" clearly cannot be used. --Stratelier 19:07, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

PS - Personally I'd like a compromise title like species base stat, because this is about the 'base stats' for the whole species, and not for an individual Pokémon. And because we obviously can't call it "base stat (species)". --Stratelier 23:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I just want to say that "stat levels" is not at all supposed to be an official term. The Japanese and English pages for Super Training say pretty much the same things, so by comparing them, you can tell whether "stat levels" is supposed to be an official term or if it's just a simple description. So...where the English page says "The inside (green) part of the Effort-o-Meter graph shows the stat levels relevant to each Pokémon species.", the Japanese page says (translated), "The innermost graph shows the abilities of each Pokemon species." (or "[...] abilities that each Pokemon species has."). The Japanese page actually devotes a little more text to that subject, and never comes close to actually defining any sort of "official" term. Therefore, it's clear to me that the English wording is nothing more than slightly clunky description that happens to sound like a "term".

I don't even like referring to "stat level" as "the closest we do have to an official term". I don't consider it anything more than an accident. I would prefer "Species stat" for some clarity over "Stat level"'s kludginess. Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it would be more elegant to have separate names for base stats and EVs. However, we do not have an official term for base stats, as we now do for EVs, meaning we would have to make up a new term as this separate name. As an encyclopedia, it is our job to record information and represent it neutrally, not to create new information. Our articles should reflect the viewpoints of Game Freak and the community, not our personal opinions. Therefore, as it is clear that Game Freak has not provided us an official name for base stats, it would be irresponsible of us to use anything other than an established fan term. "Species stats" or "stat levels" may sound nice, but the only people who use these terms are those on this talk page. "Base stats (fan term)" or equivalent (please do suggest alternatives for the text in parentheses) is the only new title this page could have if it is to be of any practical use. Ninjask (talk) 22:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The guidebook also refers to a Pokémon's base stats (what we once called base stats) as "the strengths of its species" (also referring to IVs as "the strengths of the individual" but let's get this naming fiasco done one at a time). Perhaps "Species strengths" is also a possibility? Keeping it as base stats (fan term) is only going to cause confusion. It really is a shame we can't get any official word on this. - Blaziostalk 22:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

And it's not helping that "the strengths of its species" is not exactly a term so much as a phrasal description. (AFAIK, STAB is probably also technically a fan term.) --Stratelier 00:54, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Anybody have any other suggestions for the name, then? This page has to be moved eventually. - Blaziostalk 15:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

As I recall the article on Effort Values states the Japanese term has always been "Base Stats". While I usually resist change, I also prefer using the correct or official terms. Yes, it will take some getting used to and I will need to make revisions in all my Pokémon related projects, but the term Species Stats is more accurate and Effort Values (which that discussion is probably on that page) should be referred to as Base Stats to coordinate with the Japanese fans and the recently revealed term that Game Freak uses. As for confusion for the users at large, "Base Stats" would automatically redirect to Species Stats and an explanation would be in the opening paragraph. Thus educating the user on the reason for the change in terms.White Phoenix (talk) 20:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Somehow this gets complicated even further, given that one of the official guides refers to a Pokémon's base stats as their "stat growth rates", meaning that yet again, the possibility of this page being moved to that name needs to be discussed. At this rate, hopefully we can get the page moved and sorted by the anniversary of the discussion being opened. - Blaziostalk 12:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC)