Tough one to swallow - hope he is able to return but wondering how realistic it is. Immediately dropped from the top 5ish of prospects to at least 30ish... He is really young so time is on his side but, 2 shoulder surgeries before yr 21st bday spells "yeah right".

This is sad. He was hurt prior to us getting him. Shoulder surgeries should never be sneezed at. I have been concerned about him since the first surgery was announced. I was even more concerned when he didn't come north with Kinston or Lake County. Lot's of talent that we could use. There is still hope with him though.

Someone on another thread compared him with Adam Miller. Not saying I agree with that but it is shaping up that way.

daingean wrote:This is sad. He was hurt prior to us getting him. Shoulder surgeries should never be sneezed at. I have been concerned about him since the first surgery was announced. I was even more concerned when he didn't come north with Kinston or Lake County. Lot's of talent that we could use. There is still hope with him though.

Someone on another thread compared him with Adam Miller. Not saying I agree with that but it is shaping up that way.

Not quite Adam Miller. Knapp never made it to AAA he's only been to single-A so far so it's not like he was knocking on the door to play tomorrow and then got a freak injury.

Honestly don't know what to think about this one...Probably why it seems the Tribe is taking it easy in returning some of the big name prospects (Bryson, Stowell, Pomeranz) after watching White and now Knapp both go down.It's hard to say whose is more serious, after the Adam Miller saga.Looks to me upon return Jason Knapp will likely be a bullpen arm. I could be wrong but it would seem that it would be easier on him physically if he was throwing one or two innings at a time rather than 5...6...7 innings as a starter.Thing here it appears he probably wasn't quite back yet even last yr. Knapp had loose bodies removed from the joint, and labrum surgery. It was a "known" issue when the Tribe acq. Knapp that he had something going on. Knapp said himself he injured the labrum after he was acquired by the Tribe, this was not pre-existing the Lee deal. It's also not uncommon for ppl who have had labrum surgery to have a second and third surgery to tighten or reattach or even anchor the labrum. If it is as serious as anchoring the labrum I'd take my time getting Knapp back but wouldn't count on him either .Knapp does have youth on his side six weeks doesn't seem like a long time to get back into things, but like I said once Knapp is healthy I would expect him to be much more than a bullpen arm IMO . I hope I'm completely wrong on this aspect of it. BTW can anybody think of some major leaguers who have had labrum repairs and have made it back as good as before? I can't really think of anyone whose had it off hand.

homerawayfromhome wrote:Honestly don't know what to think about this one...Probably why it seems the Tribe is taking it easy in returning some of the big name prospects (Bryson, Stowell, Pomeranz) after watching White and now Knapp both go down.It's hard to say whose is more serious, after the Adam Miller saga.Looks to me upon return Jason Knapp will likely be a bullpen arm. I could be wrong but it would seem that it would be easier on him physically if he was throwing one or two innings at a time rather than 5...6...7 innings as a starter.Thing here it appears he probably wasn't quite back yet even last yr. Knapp had loose bodies removed from the joint, and labrum surgery. It was a "known" issue when the Tribe acq. Knapp that he had something going on. Knapp said himself he injured the labrum after he was acquired by the Tribe, this was not pre-existing the Lee deal. It's also not uncommon for ppl who have had labrum surgery to have a second and third surgery to tighten or reattach or even anchor the labrum. If it is as serious as anchoring the labrum I'd take my time getting Knapp back but wouldn't count on him either .Knapp does have youth on his side six weeks doesn't seem like a long time to get back into things, but like I said once Knapp is healthy I would expect him to be much more than a bullpen arm IMO . I hope I'm completely wrong on this aspect of it. BTW can anybody think of some major leaguers who have had labrum repairs and have made it back as good as before? I can't really think of anyone whose had it off hand.

it is pathetic how the indians continue to allow their top players to get injured or don't perform at the high level they were supposed to.

You look at Knapp, adam miller, hafner, sizemore, carmona, alex white. They actually said that alex white's injury was probably unavoidable. How is that so? It makes no sense.

sizemore has been hurt and now looks like a shell of his old self. Travis hafner can't stay healthy at a time when he finally starting to produce again.

The biggest get in the cliff lee trade is now on his second shoulder surgery and isn't even past A ball. Carmona is a head case with no control.

At what point do we have to start wondering about the indians medical staff in keeping these guys healthy. I am not saying that you are not going to have injuries, but when you have reoccuring ones, there has to be some problem in the way that you are training these guys.

I was lead to believe in another forum that it wasn't surgery on his labrum, but something else was getting "tightened up", and I didn't think his first shoulder surgery was labrum related either. Maybe I'm mistaken. Either way the Indians are one of the most well respected teams in the league when it comes to pitcher health and training so that comment is way of base IMHO.

homerawayfromhome wrote:Thing here it appears he probably wasn't quite back yet even last yr. Knapp had loose bodies removed from the joint, and labrum surgery. It was a "known" issue when the Tribe acq. Knapp that he had something going on. Knapp said himself he injured the labrum after he was acquired by the Tribe, this was not pre-existing the Lee deal. It's also not uncommon for ppl who have had labrum surgery to have a second and third surgery to tighten or reattach or even anchor the labrum. If it is as serious as anchoring the labrum I'd take my time getting Knapp back but wouldn't count on him either

If I recall correctly the known injury was diagnosed by Philly to be in the bicep part of the arm. Unfortunately, it turned out that the injury was in the shoulder. There are some guys that have had success after shoulder surgeries like mentioned above John Smoltz but he had his surgery after he had established himself with the Braves. I think the Pedro issue was after he was with the Mets and never really came back to where he was. Wood has been relegated to the Bullpen. Just a note, Smoltz and Wood had the "Inverted W" in their delivery (like Knapp) which also adds stress to the shoulder (IMHO). Not writing Knapp off as of yet but certainly the ? is getting bigger with him.

indians1 wrote:it is pathetic how the indians continue to allow their top players to get injured or don't perform at the high level they were supposed to.

You look at Knapp, adam miller, hafner, sizemore, carmona, alex white. They actually said that alex white's injury was probably unavoidable. How is that so? It makes no sense.

sizemore has been hurt and now looks like a shell of his old self. Travis hafner can't stay healthy at a time when he finally starting to produce again.

The biggest get in the cliff lee trade is now on his second shoulder surgery and isn't even past A ball. Carmona is a head case with no control.

At what point do we have to start wondering about the indians medical staff in keeping these guys healthy. I am not saying that you are not going to have injuries, but when you have reoccuring ones, there has to be some problem in the way that you are training these guys.

Hard to blame the medical staff when a guy pulls an oblique swinging a bat (Hafner). Or a guy can't slide into second base and hurts his knee (Sizemore). Or a guy gets a freak injury straining his middle finger (White, Miller). And so on. Injuries are unpredictable, and in almost every case presented there is not a medical staff in the world that could prevent them from occurring. The medical staff's job is to keep the guys healthy AFTER they get dinged up or really hurt. The training staff is responsible for preventing....though like I said, hard to blame anyone for such injuries. If we were seeing a lot of blown hammys and stuff like that, I would agree.

indians1 wrote:it is pathetic how the indians continue to allow their top players to get injured or don't perform at the high level they were supposed to.

You look at Knapp, adam miller, hafner, sizemore, carmona, alex white. They actually said that alex white's injury was probably unavoidable. How is that so? It makes no sense.

sizemore has been hurt and now looks like a shell of his old self. Travis hafner can't stay healthy at a time when he finally starting to produce again.

The biggest get in the cliff lee trade is now on his second shoulder surgery and isn't even past A ball. Carmona is a head case with no control.

At what point do we have to start wondering about the indians medical staff in keeping these guys healthy. I am not saying that you are not going to have injuries, but when you have reoccuring ones, there has to be some problem in the way that you are training these guys.

I criticized the medical staff last year for the way they handled LaPorta (allowing him to play hurt for probably 1/4 of the year), as well as the way they had handled Grady's injury (similar story, playing hurt for months). Tony added that Victor was also playing hurt in 2008. Supposedly, they did that with Hafner and Borowski. Arguably, they allowed Rondon to play hurt last year instead of forcing him to go get his TJ surgery earlier. Now, a large portion of this has to do with the players themselves deciding to try to rough it out instead of healing up (as was suggested in Sizemore's case as well as Rondon's).

I don't have a problem with this one. They were treating Knapp with kid gloves all year, and didn't have him trying to pitch through it. If anything, that's a good sign for this group. Similarly, I like that they're shutting down White for the year. It's not like he ended up on the DL after pitching with finger pain for weeks (or at least that's not what I've read). They shut him down at first sight, and that's the right call. They also continue to bench/DH Sizemore quite often, which is what they should be doing. They've also been good with Hafner in limiting his workload (when he wasn't hurt) and by all accounts Hafner was looking 100% healthy this year until the injury. They acted pretty quickly in putting him on the DL, and it seems that they're giving him all sorts of time to recover.

Injuries happen in baseball, and they are unavoidable. That being said, I can find a lot less to critique in the handling of players this year.

Art: Agree with you about wanting to see a fully healthy Jason Knapp on the hill. I guess more time will be needed.

Ed14: Herein lies one of the most vexing conundrums of baseball: Are you hurt?.. or are you injured?

Some general things about the shoulder and it's 'health': The shoulder joint is a complex joint. My guess is that some of the folks who are here have had or know someone who has had a "separated shoulder". The medical term for that is call subluxation. When that happens. the "pocket" that holds the bulbous end of the upper arm bone (humerous) over comes the ability of the muscles, ligaments and tendons to "keep the shoulder together" and damages those tissues. The damage tissue in most cases returns to normal, but sometimes, it remains too loose. Then the subluxation becomes chronic, that is the upper arm bone is able to slide around too much in the socket and slips out from time to time. The shoulder can be stabilized by "tightening" these soft tissues using surgery (Bankart Repair). Shoulder surgery is usually successful, but success is 'relative'. Most people who have surgery regain more than 85 to 95 % of their former 'range of motion' and strength.. for a Professional baseball player, that's not good enough. The muscles surrounding the shoulder are usually "worked" to compensate for the degradation of the shoulder joint. This is what Jason Knapp has coming for him. He has youth on his side...We shall see...

BTw. having a Bankart repair is usually not the end of a pitchers career..it's just a bump in the road.. the names listed regarding the "pitchers name, labrum" google listing.. probably got about 232029393 hits...

criznit2009 wrote:Tough one to swallow - hope he is able to return but wondering how realistic it is. Immediately dropped from the top 5ish of prospects to at least 30ish... He is really young so time is on his side but, 2 shoulder surgeries before yr 21st bday spells "yeah right".

Agreed would keep him in the top 50 just for fun with no actual expectations of him ever contributing. The good news is I think most people that followed it closely never considered him a legit prospect to begin with. Was impossible to overlook the injury issues.

It's major, but not unanticipated following the first round with this shoulder. Probably more than half that have the 1st procedure, have to have this next operation to solidify the joint, and reduce play in it. Irregardless, it's a major issue that you really can only hope that they get right with this procedure, without limiting and hurting the mobility in the joint to a point it effects his power.

Do you guys really think that some of these injuries are not avoidable. There are going to be some injuries, but when a guy like grady sizemore hurts his knee on a flukish play and needs microfracture surgery. Grady is 28 years old and is probably will never return back to his former self. At 28 years old? When travis hafner continues to have these injuries, and our top pitching prospects end up with arm trouble, we say "that s bad luck" ? The training staff said that adam miller's arm issues - his elbow, shoulder and finger troubles had nothing to do with each other. How is that so?

Not all injuries are preventable, but when a guy repeatedly has injury issues, he is labled injury prone. Why is so crazy to ask " Are the players are being trained properly?"

Do you guys really think that some of these injuries are not avoidable. There are going to be some injuries, but when a guy like grady sizemore hurts his knee on a flukish play and needs microfracture surgery. Grady is 28 years old and is probably will never return back to his former self. At 28 years old? When travis hafner continues to have these injuries, and our top pitching prospects end up with arm trouble, we say "that s bad luck" ? The training staff said that adam miller's arm issues - his elbow, shoulder and finger troubles had nothing to do with each other. How is that so?

Not all injuries are preventable, but when a guy repeatedly has injury issues, he is labled injury prone. Why is so crazy to ask " Are the players are being trained properly?"

I for one believe that Knapp's injury is a result of the "Inverted-W" element of his delivery (google it). It has been said this is a natural part of one's delivery and is impossible to change. I am not calling this a flaw or that it needed to be corrected. It just puts a lot of torque on one's shoulder (most like Stephen Strausberg, Anthony Reyes, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, and even John Smoltz have had this in their delivery). I also believe he had his shoulder issues prior to coming over in a trade.

Players play every day in pro baseball and it is encouraged to play through soreness. The trick is knowing when your hurt instead of sore. Trainers keep up with players (more than you know spend plenty of time in the trainer's room).

Injuries happen. I think if you look at other teams you will see they experience injuries at similar or even more rates. I know that it has been said that the Pirates (just 5 years ago) minor leagues was a bad place for young pitchers with the number of injuries they experienced.

Here is my issue it seems to be basic physics F= MA. The mass is constant but the higher acceleration means more force on the throwing arm. Outside of about one player a decade no one throws that hard, and I think most bodies can not handle the force

jellis wrote:Here is my issue it seems to be basic physics F= MA. The mass is constant but the higher acceleration means more force on the throwing arm. Outside of about one player a decade no one throws that hard, and I think most bodies can not handle the force

It's not quite that rare. There's been some guys recently who can do it. Lincecum is a member of the 100MPH club, as is Ubaldo Jimenez and Justin Verlander... and they're all been relatively healthy over their careers. However, it might be that Knapp will eventually have to go to the bullpen and become a Broxton/Zumaya/Aroldis Chapman type of reliever.