Archivio del 28 February 2008

Thursday, 28 February 2008

In un interessante forum si puo' apprezzare il diverso livello di trattamento di due etnie in due paesi europei. In Italia il Griko (greco salentino) viene promosso dalle autorita' italiane a livello degno dell'Europa, mentre in Grecia l'Aromuno viene "pestato" in una forma tipicamente balcanica. (In an interesting forum it is possible to understand the differences of behaviour toward a minority group inside two different european countries. The Griko in southern Italy is dealed with by the Italian authorities in a clear european way, while the Aromanian in Greece is oppressed in a typical Balkan way).

Ecco il riassunto del forum in inglese (resumen in english):

Flipper:

"The Italian Greeks of the south have released a newspaper in the Grecanico/Griko language, called Spitta(Σπύνθα). The organisation is called "Grika milume" (We speak Greek) and focus on news from Greece, Southern Italy and various Greek & Italian traditions.

Since, Grico was an endangered language in Italy after WWII, a lot of work has been done to preserve it. It is a recognised language in Italy again. It has it's basis in Doric Greek and is very similar the Tsakonian language of the spartan villages in Greece."

I am glad to see that the Greek heritage in my Italy is appreciated and defended, like with the Albanian/Croatian/Slovenian/etc..minorities in other regions of Italy.

One little question: why the Greeks do not behave in a similar way with their minorities? For example, a small minority like the Aromanians in the Pindus mountains should be allowed to print a newspaper in Aromanian.... ........

Centurion"

Leonidas:

" Originally posted by centurionI am glad to see that the Greek heritage in my Italy is appreciated and defended, like with the Albanian/Croatian/Slovenian/etc..minorities in other regions of Italy.

how is it being 'defended' ? is this newspaper being written and paid for by the central government? also how is salento griko being taken up by the youth? IIRC only the older Greeks speak it now hhmm.

If the Greek heritage was appreciated many more southern Italians would be speaking greek as their own, more so than a bunch of oldies in a few pockets."

Flipper:

"Leonidas, I think there is a discussion if it will be teached in schools again. There's actually interest amongst Grecos there to preserve it. But as I said...This is a matter of initiative...The goverment does not actively do something, it just takes requests and approves them. No need to get in these minority discussions. I posted this a a sample of newspaper since it has interresting linguistic data, I didn't want to start funny discussions about "how oppresed the poor Greeks in Italy are and can't speak their language" or something like that."

Centurion:

"Thanks Flipper. I agree in everything written in your answer to Leonidas.Thanks even for the names of the newspapers you gave, but I don't know if they are published in the Pindus mountains area for the local small Aromanian/Vlach minority ....Anyway, here it is an excerpt from the scholar Dr. Kahl, that says that there are no newspapers in Aromanian language published in Greece:Intimidation and repression of Aromanians by local Greek politicians, teachers, priests as well as the nationalist press in the period between the civil war and the military dictatorship has led to a tabooing of minority topics in Greece.

I have heard about Aromanian children who were punished for speaking Aromanian at school well into the 1970s and 1980s. Aromanians with such experiences usually maintain a strong antipathy towards the Greek policy and preserve, until today (especially in the Balkans and the diaspora), feelings of belonging to an Aromanian minority.

In the last few years optimistic activities for the preservation of Aromanian culture in Greece as well as serious indications for insufficient tolerance in Greece have increased. Demirtaş-Coşkuncharacterises the situation of the Vlach population in Greece as "the worst when compared with other countries". Claims that "the Vlach community wants to have education and church services in Vlach" and "Greece refuses to give the Vlachs any cultural rights", represent cultural demands made by the Aromanians of Greece. Aromanian is still learned today in the villages, but only within the families, never in associations or schools.

In the Balkans and the diaspora there are about ten Aromanian magazines, several homepages and radio stations using Aromanian, but none of them in Greece. A large part of the Aromanian community living in Greece is not interested in any initiative aimed at the preservation of the Aromanian language apart from its use in the family. Initiatives taken to protect the Aromanian culture are looked upon with mistrust (i.e. Minority Groups Research Centre, KEMO).

In Greece there is no newspaper using the Aromanian language. Finally, documentary films about Aromanians are very rare on Greek television; their language is never heard.

As you can read, Flipper, no newspaper in Aromanian/Vlach language is published in Greece. But may be in the last year something has changed? I appreciate to know if there it is now in Greece the equivalent of "Spizza".......I would very happy it this happens, because that would mean that the European Union is REALLY influencing all its 27 countries about minority rights.

Centurion"

Flipper:

"Centurion, as I can see Dr Kahl is totally unaware of things there. As himself states, he has heard about these things.

The Vlach community online has a report about some of the newspapers mention and even more than I wasn't aware of.

The first newspaper ever was released during the 50s, so the EU has nothing to do with this. I have said before that in Greece Vlachs are not seen as foreign people. Everyone knows a Vlach, everyone has visited Metsovo in Pindus at least once and everyone has eaten on a Vlach restaurant.

As for the cultural part it is popular to attend Vlach festivals all over Greece. You know there's dance, tons of wine and steaks

As you can see centurion, Vlachs is a cultural phenomenon...During xmas for example TV programs show views from Vlach villages were Vlachs are singing xmas songs for example. "

Centurion:

"FLIPPER: I translated as you indicated but I still don't find any newspaper in Aromanian language published actually in the Pindus area for the local Vlach minority. Thanks anyway. BTW I believe you talk about a "real Vlach" in another AE Forum that was closed ("Maps of the Vlachs regions") . Probably he was disgusted by the sudden close of the Topic by a greek nationalistic administrator and went away from AE. Later he wrote in another weblog this:-----------------

“When you kill yourself it could be that you have gone mad and you really want to kill yourself, but also that maybe others are putting an enormous pressure on you to do so!”

Therefore, are the Vlachs going mad or there is some sort of tremendous pressure currently put on them? It is quite clear that the answer is that they became suicidal because of the insuportable pressure and the nationalistic Greek environment which does not tolerate -as a rule- the presence of autochtonous ethnical minorities on the territory of Greece. So it’s: either become Greek either stop existing. By becoming Greek the Vlachs ceased to exist as “Vlachs” and became something else (i.e. assimilated, bastardized, quislings etc.). While the Greeks are set to win everything through this move, the Vlachs are loosing out totally. It’s simply NOT FAIR by any standards!
So i think it’s time to stage back a (non-violent) fight for ethnic and cultural rights, to show the world that the Vlachs are not mere puppets of the Greek Big Brother. Not many Vlachs who escaped Hellenization are left today in Greece but there are still a few siblings of those warriors who fought for Diamandi’s Legions who might still want to have the last say. See what the future is bringing. Do not underestimate us REAL, unGrecized Aromanians!

P.S. Note that I use the word Greek and not Hellene since I personally do not believe the modern mixed-up neo-Greeks have much in common with the Ancient Hellenes who lived over two thousand years ago.

A Vlach who escaped Grecization

-----------------

As you can read there it is his e-mail address, if you want to contact him and get the answer to your questions.

LEONIDAS: I believe Flipper has answered for me, so I don't find the need to repeat. Anyway I believe Administrators should be more impartial on nationalistic issues (even if regarding their own country).

"One last message: I see that Flipper is getting emotional about the Vlach issue. I want only to precise that the "Pindos" newspaper is NOT in Aromanian language. I am only pinpointing this fact: there it is not a newspaper in AROMANIAN LANGUAGE in the Pindus area.....the Vlachs in the area are forced to read NEWSPAPERS WRITTEN IN GREEK and this is not fair toward a minority of the European Union. This fact seems to astutely "facilitate" their assimilation (like has happened with the Sarakatsani, an ethnic group that some scholars believe was a former Vlach group now speaking only Greek and no more Aromanian). Furthermore, the greek administrator that closed the AE Forum on Maps of Vlach regions should have been more impartial (because of his role) than a "fella you posted", as Flipper writes.

Anyway, I agree that the topic here is about the Griko community in southern Italy and sincerely I appreciate the youtube videos of Flipper about them. I like very much Greece and the Greeks: that is why I'd like to see them free from the "Balkan mentality" about language & ethnicity that still have in some circumstances. Centurion"

Flipper:

"

Originally posted by centurionOne last message: I see that Flipper is getting emotional about the Vlach issue. I want only to precise that the "Pindos" newspaper is NOT in Aromanian language. I am only pinpointing this fact: there it is not a newspaper in AROMANIAN LANGUAGE in the Pindus area.....the Vlachs in the area are forced to read NEWSPAPERS WRITTEN IN GREEK and this is not fair toward a minority of the European Union.

Where do you read that Pindos is not in Aromanian language? I believe most of the newspapers are billingual like Ameru.

It is worth mentioning that these attempts, are a direct answer to some professional Vlachology researchers outside our borders, who claim that there are no Vlach press releases in our country and tramp every scientific deontology, even though they receive our papers.

How "honest scientifically" this is, I'll leave you to judge.

Do I need to get into more details?

Centurion, i'm really sorry for getting so sharp on the matter. However, the way you put is is an indirect impplication that it is not allowed to print newspapers related to Vlachs and the aromanian language. It is a serious accusation, that creates impressions, while bypassing some information available on the vlach website. Mr Adam, is quote caustic in his statement and I believe this is for a reason.

Originally posted by centurionThis fact seems to astutely "facilitate" their assimilation (like has happened with the Sarakatsani, an ethnic group that some scholars believe was a former Vlach group now speaking only Greek and no more Aromanian).

It is ignorant to call them a former Vlach group. Let me clear out some points:

a) this is only claimed by pro-Vlach scholars based only in the nomadic way of life both groups have. It is not a generally accepted view. It's like saying every nomad is a vlach.

b) the language they speak is an archaic dialect of Greek. It is not modern Greek. It is strange that whoever made statements as above bypassed that detail. Just an example of a Sarakatsan word that is a loanword in modern Greek: Νεράιδα(Neraeda) = fairy, from Gk. Νερά(Nera) = waters and είδα(eda) = I saw. Neraides are fairies that according to the traditions are seen near the shores of rivers. Another example is the word for spears Λούρατα (Lurata) which is a distortion of the homeric word Δούρατα (Dhurata, Ods. Βοοκ 22, 110), modern Greek Δόρατα (Dorata). The word Κρησούνι (Krisuni) which means "head" is from the homeric Κρής (Kris), modern greek Κεφάλι (Kephali). The word Πυροστιά (pyrostia) meaning "fire hearth" is a direct distortion of Πυρεστία. The word Σκούτι (skuti) which means leather is from the word Σκύτος (skitos).

If that is not northwestern Greek, then we must redefine the term Greek language.

Note also that I'm a member of Sarakatsanos.gr...I'm sure they would like to comment such statements, especially when they claim to be the most ancient greek tribe, descending from the Ellopes."

Leonidas:

"

Originally posted by centurionLEONIDAS: I believe Flipper has answered for me, so I don't find the need to repeat. Anyway I believe Administrators should be more impartial on nationalistic issues (even if regarding their own country).

i don't live in Greece and im allowed to have an opinion which makes me (and everyone else including you) partial in most subjects.

actually i asked 3 basic questions, with the third having what i think the answer is. ..and no they haven't been answered by anyone else. So why cant you answered them rather than hiding behind another member?

Maybe i can give you one question, is Italy responsible for the past decline , or possible extinction of Greek in (what was) traditionally Greek speaking areas in its control?"

This excerpt is from the first page of the I SPITTA ("Periodico grico derentino"). As everybody can understand, it is written in local Greek and not in Italian. My only question at the beginning of the topic was: "why there it is not Aromanian newspaper in the Pindus area written in Aromanian/Vlach language?". It seems this simple question (and the clear evidence that all the newspapers for the Vlachs in the Pindus mountains are ONLY in Greek, like the newspaper "Pindos") has irritated the nationalistic feelings of Flipper & Leonidas. I apologize.But I feel offended by the provocations that: 1) I am "ignorant" for having written that some scholars believe that the Sarakatsani are Aromanians assimilated by the Greeks. In this case there it is an extensive literature (not only from Romanian authors: read "The Aromanians, a people on the move" by the French scholar Nicolas Trifon) about the Vlach origin of the Sarakatsani (and allow me to remember that no serious scholar defines ignorant another person only because has different opinions on a subject). 2) I "hide behind another person", only because I believe that the answer of Flipper to Leonidas is identical to mine. In this second case allow me to repeat that Leonidas as administrator should be more impartial and not "call for a fight". I am not going to answer to his provocation about the Italian "extermination" of the Greek communities in southern Italy. I love too much the Magna Grecia and its heritage in the roots of Italy, like most Italians: the excerpt above WRITTEN IN LOCAL GREEK is my best answer! I wish I could read an excerpt in Aromanian language from a contemporary Vlach newspaper of the Pindus region...........But I want to write to Leonidas that the Greek government should understand that the Aromanian language is a “patrimonium” of Greece and ALLOW THE OFFICIAL USE of this neolatin language in the small area of the Pindus mountains, where they still survive. The Greeks should be proud of the neolatin language of these few aromanian villages (that do not constitute a threat to Greece, because they are now just a few, like the Greco community in Calabria).I am very disappointed and as a consequence I am going to stop posting in AllEmpires forever.Centurion"

Flipper:

"Centurion...

First of all, you have been creating implications that could be a stand for serious accusations. You have yet not proven that there are no Aromanian newspapers in Greece. You got a direct answer from the article i posted and you still bypassed it by commenting the "nationalistic feelings of Flipper & Leonidas". In that tone i could start speaking of panlatinism here. I have sent a mail to the community of the Vlachs asking them about their thoughts on the matter. I'm sure that their opinion is what matters most.

Let me remind you that the president of the Vlachs, Mr. Adam, says that some authors have claimed there are no vlach papers in Greece even though they have received them. What do you make out of this?

Second...The comment about being ignorant was not directed to you and I'm sorry if it was taken in that way. My point was that it is ignorant to connect Sarakatsans, who declare themselves as descendans of Ellopians, with Vlachs . Those authors you mentioned judge from the nomadic lifestyle of Sarakatsans. That argument cannot base such an assumption, cause that's what it is. An assumption. All nomads are not Vlachs...Simple logic. Sarakatsans, speak a northwestern Greek dialect, with alot of archaic elements. That's maybe a point Nicolas Trifon missed?

Now i will ask you...Have you read anything about researches Sarakatsans themselves have made about their herritage? It is in my future plans to make a post about it and ofcourse invite some Sarakatsans from the community to tell you whether they see themselves as Vlachs or an Ellopian tribe. To get the whole picture and a complete scientific report wouldn't you agree it would be best to include Sarakatsan bibliography in such a discussion, instead of grouping people because they are nomads?

Third...Vlach is not spoken just in the area of Pindus you talk about. Vlachs are nowadays all over and i've been pointing that out all the time. They're not banned in using their language. There's an official course in neolatin, in the university of Thessaloniki. The vlach villages are not just few as you mention and Greeks are proud about their culture like they are proud about Vlach heroes like Rigas Feraios.

You tend to shift things in a way to create a biased impression. You know I can bomb the place with Vlach bibliograohy and videos and not stick just to words and characterizations.

What you call a "provocation" by Leonidas, is a mirror to the tone you have used in this discussion. It is a rhetorical question...Is Italy responsible for the past decline of the Grecos? The logic you use in your statements about the Vlachs in Greece, can be used the other way around to answer affirmative to that question.

However, we never implyed such a thing. If something was done, it was done by Mussolini and should not affect Italy historically nor its people.

Both in Greece and Italy, releasing a newspaper in another language is not prohibited. The existance of such depends on community initiatives. Is Neolatin teached in schools in Greece? No. Is Grekanico teached in schools in Italy? No.

Does things absense of Grecanico teaching in Italy, depend on the adaption of Mussolinis tactics in our days? No is my answer.

Do you get our point now?"

Flipper:

"Also tell me what this one below is? Is it a bilingual Aromanian calendar or not?

I'm sure they will be more than happy to assist you with any questions.

Also let's not forget that there's a whole academy of sciences in Greece, that is called Metsovio Politechnio. "

Brunodam"

"Calm down, my friend Centurion.Actually, Griko is taught in the Salento area (south of Lecce) in the "Scuola Elementare Rosselli" of Martano and in the "Scuola Elementare di Corigliano" of Corigliano. I don't know if Aromanian is taught in elementary schools of the Pindus region and I'd like to know about.

Additionally, there are courses of Griko in the elementary, middle and high schools of Sternatia. All the seven small cities of the Apulia's "Salento Greco" (Calimera,Castrignano dei Greci, Corigliano d'Otranto, Martano, Martignano, Sternatia, Zollino) have some experimental teaching of Griko in their elementary schools. In Calabria's Aspromonte the nearly 5000 greek speaking of the town of Bova are even protected by a special minorities law of the Calabria region (http://web.uniud.it/cip/MIN_LEGGE_CALABRIA.HTM).

Indeed, Prof. Gino Gullace - former President of the International Association Magna Grecia - writes that "....Italy, not Greece, was the first to recognize the long historical contribution of the Griko language and declared it a protected minority language, giving it the right to be taught in elementary schools, and spoken in public. Italian parliament also moved to state that this group was a ethnic minority as well, naming it the Griko-Salentinian ethnicity ("Minoranze linguistiche Grike dell'Etnia Griko-Salentina" in Italian). The language is endangered. Greece has recently started doing exchange programs with the communities encouraging the youth to keep the language alive. Griko is spoken by most generations, and a Griko newspaper is now published out of Salento. Yet there are still no Griko schools above the elementary school level, and immigration to big cities is still an issue, therefore lessening the chance that Griko children will speak and spread the language in bigger cities, most notably Naples where most of them move...."

Regarding the alleged Mussolini harrassment of the Griko language, it is interesting to note that nearly all the territorial reductions of the Griko speaking area in Salento happened before the XX century, as can be read here: http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/Articoli/Greek_Vernacular.html (an article done in the 1980s by Professor Geoffrey Hull, before the creation of movements toward the rebirth of the Griko in Italy).

Finally, I -too- am interested in reading an excerpt in Aromanian language from a contemporary newspaper of the Pindus area. A simple bilingual Calendar means nothing about the real acceptance of the Aromanian minority language by the Greek authorities.

Sincerely. Brunodam"

Leonidas:

"AFAIK the decline of griko has been going on gradually for allot longer than moussilini, there isn't one person, law or event that can be blamed for that. The most ironic thing about this, is that the introduction of Greek may help the language survive but the actual dialect itself most probably will disappear into modern Greek today. thats a shame, especially for the calabrian greeks who have kept archaisms. "

Flipper:

"First of all Brunodam thanks for your informative post. As I mentioned before Vlach is only teached in the Aristotelean university of Thessaloniki. The newspapers mentioned are not available online in electronic form, so the best you could do is to contact www.vlahoi.net and ask them for any scanned pages. I'm sure they would be helpfull.

http://www.vlach.gr/
This is from a linguist of Vlach origin living in London. He has uploaded many recordings related to aromanian language. He has also language guides related to pronounciation, vowels, grammer etc.

"The bottom line is,that Greece claims it is a nearly 100 % Greek,with inconsiderable ethnic minorities in it.Ridicolous.If Greece would have allowed in the past annd would even allow now the use of ethnic lannguages it would have some very serious issues to deal with.A very simple example of Greeces atitude to other existing languages in the country is the Albanian emigrants example, were Albanians are getin their right to work and stay only if they change their names to greek sounding ones.

example.

Luan ( Albo name meaning Lion) should be Leonidas in Greece.

Ilir (Albo name meaning free) should be Ilias in Greece.

Pal ( Albo for Paul ) should be Pavlos in Greece.

It makes one wonder wether that is a new strategy for Greeks or wether is the same old one that was used to create the new Greece.Thats the problem,the Greeks are tought lies upon lies and their leaders can not come to terms with reality any more."

Flipper:

"

Originally posted by HEROIA very simple example of Greeces atitude to other existing languages in the country is the Albanian emigrants example, were Albanians are getin their right to work and stay only if they change their names to greek sounding ones.example.

That is a riddiculus claim. Immigrants are not forced to change their names. Where did you get that from? Can you give a concrete example of such an accusation? When you make statements you have to give sources that support them.

Let's not start to speak about the closing of greek tv channels in Albania ok? Nor the treatment of people during communist era. You'd better know how to dance before joining the dance...This is not a playground. Speak with facts not with things you've "heard of".

As for name changes of citizens (not immigrants) it is common everywhere. The american name Bell was from the Italian Bellini for example. Another example is that in Sweden you might see an Asian named Svensson or something typical swedish ending in -sson. "

Xristar:

"People tend to change their names on their own will, in order to fit better. I knew once an indian guy, who was an illegal immigrant in Greece. He introduced himself to us as 'Kostas'. When we asked him how come he is called Kostas, he said that his original indian name was too weird to use in Greece. So he heard the name Kostas, he liked it, and he took it as his 'greek' name.
About the Vlach issue, it's maybe true that there aren't any vlach newspapers in circulation in Greece, but that doesn't mean that the Greek state is oppressing the Vlachs. In fact, the Vlach speaking minority is the most free in Greece, and greek Vlachs are very proud to be Vlachs. Here where I live now (Veria town in Macedonia), used to live many Vlachs. There are signs in latin script in aromanian language in the streets, pointing to the Aromanian museum of the town. There are more than one Vlach dictionaries in Greece, the first being written in the 19th century if i'm not mistaken."

gcle2003:

"

Originally posted by centurionThis excerpt is from the first page of the I SPITTA ("Periodico grico derentino"). As everybody can understand, it is written in local Greek and not in Italian. My only question at the beginning of the topic was: "why there it is not Aromanian newspaper in the Pindus area written in Aromanian/Vlach language?".

There's no money in it. If there was, there'd be one.

I am very disappointed and as a consequence I am going to stop posting in AllEmpires forever.Centurion

That's a pity."

Vorian:

"How did we get from Grico, to Vlachs to Albanians ????How evil must this country be, oppressing everyone living in it? How could we possibly have been admitted in the EU?"

Flipper:

"As I mentioned before, I had sent a mail to Vlahoi.net and received an answer. I have sent to the moderators, a screendump of my inbox, where the original message in Greek appear, to ensure the validity of my translation.I said many times, that if someone really cares to find out what Vlachs believe, he or she can send a message to their communities in Greece (i have posted many links) and ask their opinion, instead of making baseless assumptions.

Good evening
Vlachs exist outside Greece, in Albania, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria. Many immigrants have created communities in France, USA, Australia etc.The certain metropolis of the Vlachs is Greece and especially Pindus.I would like to give you some links, to read some things about the Vlah issue and the Romanian propaganda. For any further questions, we're here for you, to answer them.

"If I understand correctly, that article on propaganda (which surely exists to a degree) after a browsing through history and focusing on various episodes it ends with indignation that FUEN in one of their documents asked Albania and Greece for some more rights for Vlachs. From that link, here's the paragraph:

Albania and Greece should recognise the Aromanians as their biggest minority in their constitution, carry out a census of the people, change the law for the political parties and give the Aromanians the right to broadcast on national radio and television in Albania and Greece, with a right to form local administrative units of the Aromanians who would desire autonomy (cultural or territorial).

If the author of the article suggests "the Romanian propganda" is behind this resolution I think it's an outstretched assertion (some cursory readings in the site led me to conclude "living in diversity" is a kind of motto for FUEN, such a resolution seems natural if it addresses a real situation).

What's a bit puzzling about these Vlach links is a preference for the 'Vlahi' ('Vlachoi' in Greek) ethnic label as opposed to that of 'Armãnj' (while they call their language: armãneashti/shce)"

Flipper:

"From what I understand, the author who represents the Vlachs of the Almyros area in Thessaly, claims that there are suspicious moves from non govermental organizations, that get funds for such matters from institutions abroad. Specifically he mentions a meeting in Bucharest (and posts the links) where the above statement was expressed.He finishes by saying that Greek Vlachs communities should be watching such actions and that like in the past, they should raise their voice to eliminate future malicious attempts.I don't think he means that FUEN is behind all these (or has such a moto), but that they have been under influence of people with malicious attempts.

As for the words Vlach etc...They use the term Rimaniast (ριμανιαστ) when refering to Vlach language as well.

Etymology:- From palaioslavic Vlah which means non Serb/non slav/foreign but latinophone
- From German Walechen which means foreign
- From Egyptian Felah which means farmer
- From Greek Vlihi which means bleatAt the last paragraph they say they do not use the term Vlach to self identify themselves, but Armanos/Armanoi which derives from Romanus (Roman citizen).

"FUEN is an international organization, that meeting in Bucharest was just one of the many (their congress this year will be held in Hungary). He seem to point that there are "suspicious movements" even beside international organizations at this scale, which I doubt. I understood he was outraged that FUEN implied Vlachs could ask for autonomy of some sort. On a better reading, that article looks a bit propagandistic, too. Mentioning Greek colonies in Scythia Minor serves no purpose (the Romance languages and the Vlach ethnicity developed in Early Middle Ages, much later), but an eventually Hellenophilia, while other episodes seem to be careful selected (e.g. we find out Bolintineanu was a Vlach but we don't find out what was the number of Vlachs in Balkans during Bolintineanu's time and what is now).I wonder why all these organizations and sites employ the term Vlach (an exonym) but not their own language term - Armãn (Armanos, when addressing to a Greek audience)? In their language "I am Vlach" would be "Io escu armãn"."Flipper:

"Yes, It is. However, considering the sensitivity of such organizations it is not difficult to influence them somehow. Just like lobbies in the US. Metsovo for example is an administrative unit of many villages around the area. So is Farsala. As for autonomy, it is inresponsible to mention that so easily (and therefore i can imagine why he is so outrageous), since practically this is impossible because: a) Some of these places can not support themselves without the states fundings, b) there is a great population of non Vlachs around (Kozani, Veria, Almyros). Also, in such a congress there should be appointed representatives of the Vlachs from these areas. Don't forget that the second article is from Mr Averof, the major of Metsovo, in Pindus. Now, is the term propagandistic right to use or simply exhagerated? Propaganda against who? Themselves? Maybe mr Averof does not represent all the vlachs as a major in Pindus, but he represents obviously a majority. I'm sure people from all parties are available in Metsovo, who are capable of doing politics.

As for the term Vlach, it is used in the same way a Finnish site, would not refer to finns as Suomalainen when it expects international visitors, that are not familiar with the term. The same happens in all greek sites. They use more the term Greeks than Hellenes."

Chilbudios:

"

Flipper, these people are merely representatives inside some organizations (presidents of non-governamental organizations, mayors, etc.), we can't take a small number of individuals to be a true mirror of the ethnic realities in the field.And I see there's a conflict between Vlachs - Hellenophiles, Romanophiles and probably some are caught in the middle (and even in Greece). In those articles from vlahoi.net I've seen denounced as "propagandistic" some Aromanian organizations and newspapers from "diaspora" (Romania) like Bana Armãneascã (I think this is their web-site: http://www.geocities.com/armaneasca/ ). But reading the last online issue of this newspaper (43-44/2007) I couldnt' help noticing that:

a) This web-site and newspaper is entirely written in Aromanian (unlike those other "Vlach" links) - exception being letters or decrees or whatever materials which were originally written/published in another/one more language: Greek, Romanian, etc.. To an outside reader like me I think this newspaper (and whatever organization is behind) does more for the Vlach language than many of those Vlach organizations which write preponderently in Greek.

b) Vlachs from Greece write in this newspaper (among them the famous Sotiris Bletsas which was charged in Greece for his views on the ethnic situation in Greece but later his sentence was suspended), so now among these Vlachs from Greece who says the truth about their situation? Probably the truth is between them, but the question is who's closer to it, those who claim Vlachs have no problems in Greece or those who claim Vlachs do have problems?

^- I've found one more article which discusses Vlachs as a "hidden minority" in Greece and offers a justification for why many Vlachs in Greece tend to minimize their ethnical identity (of course, it must be taken in account that the essay was written in 2001, so perhaps some of the things described there have changed meanwhile)."

Heroi:

"Chilbudios!Do you really belive that Vlahs are the bigest minority in Albania?

We call them and they call themselves Coban in Albania,and is not many of them,actually you would be lucky to live all your life in Albania and meet one of them.But they are very open about their origines and that realy is not an issue at all in Albania.

The bigest minority in Albania are the Greeks,( i think about 40-50 thousend) which are the only minority who has villages that are entirely Greek and speak Greek.

Another minority would be what we call ( EVGJIT,JEVG,MAGJYP)( there number may be as high as 40 thousend or more) in local languages but dont have any identity and dont really know were they come from,they are dark skined and to me they look like Indians or Pakistanis,actually personaly i am quite sure thats what they are,and they live exlusively only in the cities,dont have a language or historical claim.The generaly accepted idea is that they are from Egypt since the way we call them is similar to Egypt, (Evgjit,Magjyp,JEVG).

The third bigest would be the Gipsy,or ROMA people.A few thousend.

Then we have small minorities of Serbs.I actually think is just an village or two,they are muslim Serbs who call themselves Goran.lets give it a thousend or two.

And then we have Bullgars and Vlahs ,which dont both together make up more then few hundred people in Albania."

Xristar:

"Actually, the Vlachs in Albania are quite many. In fact, something people in Greece don't realize is that when we speak of Greeks in Albania, we mean a few real Greeks and many Vlachs. Apparently, in Albania Vlachs are generally assimilated and seen as Albanians, with only few of them remaining 'Vlachs'.
I know that we got off-topic, but this is related I think to the whole Vlach issue, and it shows that in fact the Vlachs don't have an ethnic identity, and thus any contrary rhetorric corresponds only to a fraction of the Vlach population.
Italians and Romanians have tried to create a Vlach ethnic identity in Greece in various times in the first half of the 20th century. In the Italian case, the Italians' efforts were unopposed, as they actually militarily controlled Greece. Yet, they didn't succeed much, showing that the Vlachs themselves don't really feel an oppressed minority. Why is that the Vlachs didn't develop a seperate ethnic identity is a subject to be discussed elsewere, and not in this thread."

Chilbudios:

"Maybe the correct thing is to say that many Vlachs no longer have an ethnic identity because of the pressure they met from the majoritarian population from the actual Greece (and also in other Balkan states). Vlachs maybe will become like other "Greek" tribes only a name which will encompass a Greek-speaking and "Greek"-feeling population preserving some particularities in their dialect and in their culture. This course of events, however, is against some tendencies in EU, which Greece is part of.

And some Vlachs from Greece do feel oppressed otherwise there couldn't be a case like Sotiris Bletsas'. Romanians, Italians and Greeks can blame each other for propaganda, similarly the Vlachs divided in two (or more) camps, but if in the end there are some Vlachs in Greece which are forced to be Greeks (against their will), then the Greek authorities are to be blamed for not providing decent choices for these people. "

Xristar:

"

no longer have an ethnic identity

When did they have one?
To me it seems that during the rise of nationalism in the Balkans, the Vlachs, being few and scattered, were simply absorbed by wider nationalistic movements. It's true that in some cases, the Vlachs nationalism was violently subdued (Greek and Vlach armed bands clashed during the Macedonian struggle of 1904-1908). Still however, the Vlach national movement was never massive enough. It may survive to this day, aided by political agendas and EU policies, but it remains limited.
I, as a non-Vlach Greek, wouldn't welcome the creation of a Vlach nationality, but wouldn't mind to see the Vlach language be taught, used and generally preserved. And I think this is the case now, as the Vlach language is not prohibited at all, and is used in some cases very publicly.
Ioannis Kolettis, a Greek politician and Prime Minister of Greece in the first half of the 19th century had said "The Greek nation wears neither frocks, not does it speak french and english; it wears fustanelles, occasionally speaks albanian and vlach and keeps the customs of the tyranny, which cannot be eliminated at once; because, no matter how much do the scholars shout, nations cannot be improvised" "

Chilbudios:

"Oh, so now Vlach ethnicity is denied throughout history. I'm in no mood to fight Greek nationalism."