1. You will be openly encouraged to avoid and reject those who do not hold identical or even similar values to yours. You will be taught to judge and demonize those who engage in any religiously forbidden practice, such as drinking or smoking.

2. You will be encouraged to replace your previous friends, neighbors, etc.. with Mormon versions. Family members not of your faith are now not to be considered as trustworthy or good as the average member. You will be taught to distrust reading material, media, or any other possible source of information, if it conflicts with the church in any way.

3. Your time will be endlessly taken up engaged in church activities of all kinds, even to the point of utter exhaustion. No day will pass without a church related responsibility or demand. Your family will join you in this conscription, even when your children are very small.

4. You will never be "worthy" or "good enough" in any genuine sense. You will always be striving for some church related privilege, while simultaneously suffering punishment for your supposed "unworthiness". You will experience the exhaustion and misery of being an emotional "hamster on the wheel".

5. You will never have any privacy, even in your own mind. The church demands that you confess any and all "sins" verbally to your local bishop. These crimes include thought crimes, such as thinking "impure" sexual thoughts.

6. You will never think for yourself again. Any and all issues can be resolved by consulting the church. They will provide you with what you are "supposed" to believe whenever you happen to need that information. The church is always a higher priority than you are.

7. You will pay 10% of all the money you make for the rest of your life, or you will not be considered "worthy" before god. You will be punished and your membership and participation will be restricted until you pay up. You have no authority to claim that this is unreasonable, since you would be rebelling against "Almighty God".

8. You will surrender your right to be sexual being. You will be demonized and shamed as a perverse and disgusting creature for your innate sexual desires. You will be simultaneously told that sex is wonderful and godly, making your natural desire to profane it all the worse. You will be surrendering the ability to decide what goes on in your bedroom, literally. Any and all sexual practices other than heterosexual vaginal intercourse are considered immoral and are forbidden. You will surrender your freedom to have sex at all if you are unmarried, including masturbation. Use of pornography is forbidden and will be considered an addiction, regardless of how often you use it. You will never be entirely free of the stigma within the church if you are caught viewing it.

9. You will be required to give testimony of the principles of the church, before you have tested them or even learned all of them. You will become comfortable with the idea that the church owes you nothing, and will only give you all the doctrine on a provisional basis. Your "worthiness" and hard work earn you the right to actually learn the doctrine you have already been required to embrace. You will sign on a dotted line without being told everything up front.

10. You will be taught an openly censored version of the history of Mormonism. Some information will be changed, erased, or entirely omitted. If you discover these tampered parts of the history on your own, you will be openly stonewalled and even punished severely for trying to do anything with that information. Your membership and associated benefits are only available to you if you remain in line at all times.

11. You will be required to indoctrinate your children from the absolute earliest moments of their lives. Even as young as under a year they will be taught in "Nursery", a church program designed to use food and cartoons to teach them Mormon doctrine. I do NOT exaggerate in any way when I say that mere infants attend these meetings, without their parent's supervision, since they are required to attend other classes elsewhere. They do so until they gain enough speech ability to go to another class. They will attend this program for an hour every Sunday, every single week. That is only the beginning. They will not have a chance to choose their own values, not until adulthood has set in, and their entire life is made up of Mormon experience.

12. If you are a woman, you will be treated as unequal and less important than a man. You will be denied possession of priesthood authority. You will be unable to fill the majority of church positions. You will be given standards of dress that the Amish would most surely approve of. You will be taught that your body is a temptation for men, and it is your responsibility to keep them strong by covering it up, and dulling your own sexual nature. You will be taught that your main, and ideally only, purpose is to bear and raise children "in the faith". Motherhood is given practically holy status congruent with that of the famous "Virgin Mary". Young women are discouraged from seeking out an education or career. Instead, they are encouraged to marry and have children while still very young. Even when on occasion, women are encouraged to achieve an education, it is openly stated that this should only be a "back up plan" in case her husband is made unable to work at some point in the future. Your importance as a woman in the church is expressed only in terms of "support" for your husband, along with the church in general. Your diminished position will not ever be reconsidered, not even if you have no husband to represent you or provide priesthood authority in your home. Let single mother's beware, the only thing Mormonism has to offer them is more work to do, and 10% less income for them and their children.

Basically, slam your door when the Mormons come calling. Don't listen for even a moment.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

(14-01-2014 11:35 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote: Use of pornography is forbidden and will be considered an addiction, regardless of how often you use it. You will never be entirely free of the stigma within the church if you are caught viewing it.

(Note that the study says that there is no statistical variation between religious people and non-religious people, but they seem to buy subscriptions at the same rate as the rest of the state. Also, I suppose it's possible that other states are more likely to watch free porn, which might indicate that people in Utah are more honest about their porn viewing... until it comes time to admit it to another person.)

(14-01-2014 11:35 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote: 1. You will be openly encouraged to avoid and reject those who do not hold identical or even similar values to yours. You will be taught to judge and demonize those who engage in any religiously forbidden practice, such as drinking or smoking.

2. You will be encouraged to replace your previous friends, neighbors, etc.. with Mormon versions. Family members not of your faith are now not to be considered as trustworthy or good as the average member. You will be taught to distrust reading material, media, or any other possible source of information, if it conflicts with the church in any way.

3. Your time will be endlessly taken up engaged in church activities of all kinds, even to the point of utter exhaustion. No day will pass without a church related responsibility or demand. Your family will join you in this conscription, even when your children are very small.

4. You will never be "worthy" or "good enough" in any genuine sense. You will always be striving for some church related privilege, while simultaneously suffering punishment for your supposed "unworthiness". You will experience the exhaustion and misery of being an emotional "hamster on the wheel".

5. You will never have any privacy, even in your own mind. The church demands that you confess any and all "sins" verbally to your local bishop. These crimes include thought crimes, such as thinking "impure" sexual thoughts.

6. You will never think for yourself again. Any and all issues can be resolved by consulting the church. They will provide you with what you are "supposed" to believe whenever you happen to need that information. The church is always a higher priority than you are.

7. You will pay 10% of all the money you make for the rest of your life, or you will not be considered "worthy" before god. You will be punished and your membership and participation will be restricted until you pay up. You have no authority to claim that this is unreasonable, since you would be rebelling against "Almighty God".

8. You will surrender your right to be sexual being. You will be demonized and shamed as a perverse and disgusting creature for your innate sexual desires. You will be simultaneously told that sex is wonderful and godly, making your natural desire to profane it all the worse. You will be surrendering the ability to decide what goes on in your bedroom, literally. Any and all sexual practices other than heterosexual vaginal intercourse are considered immoral and are forbidden. You will surrender your freedom to have sex at all if you are unmarried, including masturbation. Use of pornography is forbidden and will be considered an addiction, regardless of how often you use it. You will never be entirely free of the stigma within the church if you are caught viewing it.

9. You will be required to give testimony of the principles of the church, before you have tested them or even learned all of them. You will become comfortable with the idea that the church owes you nothing, and will only give you all the doctrine on a provisional basis. Your "worthiness" and hard work earn you the right to actually learn the doctrine you have already been required to embrace. You will sign on a dotted line without being told everything up front.

10. You will be taught an openly censored version of the history of Mormonism. Some information will be changed, erased, or entirely omitted. If you discover these tampered parts of the history on your own, you will be openly stonewalled and even punished severely for trying to do anything with that information. Your membership and associated benefits are only available to you if you remain in line at all times.

11. You will be required to indoctrinate your children from the absolute earliest moments of their lives. Even as young as under a year they will be taught in "Nursery", a church program designed to use food and cartoons to teach them Mormon doctrine. I do NOT exaggerate in any way when I say that mere infants attend these meetings, without their parent's supervision, since they are required to attend other classes elsewhere. They do so until they gain enough speech ability to go to another class. They will attend this program for an hour every Sunday, every single week. That is only the beginning. They will not have a chance to choose their own values, not until adulthood has set in, and their entire life is made up of Mormon experience.

12. If you are a woman, you will be treated as unequal and less important than a man. You will be denied possession of priesthood authority. You will be unable to fill the majority of church positions. You will be given standards of dress that the Amish would most surely approve of. You will be taught that your body is a temptation for men, and it is your responsibility to keep them strong by covering it up, and dulling your own sexual nature. You will be taught that your main, and ideally only, purpose is to bear and raise children "in the faith". Motherhood is given practically holy status congruent with that of the famous "Virgin Mary". Young women are discouraged from seeking out an education or career. Instead, they are encouraged to marry and have children while still very young. Even when on occasion, women are encouraged to achieve an education, it is openly stated that this should only be a "back up plan" in case her husband is made unable to work at some point in the future. Your importance as a woman in the church is expressed only in terms of "support" for your husband, along with the church in general. Your diminished position will not ever be reconsidered, not even if you have no husband to represent you or provide priesthood authority in your home. Let single mother's beware, the only thing Mormonism has to offer them is more work to do, and 10% less income for them and their children.

Basically, slam your door when the Mormons come calling. Don't listen for even a moment.

Christianity developed in communities, validated and affirmed (only) by communities of believers. Mormonism was started by one totally uneducated man. As such, it cannot, "procedurally" claim to be a "Christian" community. Community validation was essential to the formation of Christianity. It's how ALL the heresies were rejected. If Smith had been a member of a Christian community, HE would have been rejected as a heretic. Even by "Christian" standards, Mormons cannot lay claim to it's essential formation process, as I see it.

Insufferable know-it-all. It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.

I already spent a great deal of time going over this elsewhere, but the takeaway is that this is a reductive mischaracterization of the situation.

(15-01-2014 09:07 AM)jaxx Wrote: 14. No horses, elephants, ore, etc. during the time the BOM supposedly took place.

True.

(15-01-2014 09:07 AM)jaxx Wrote: 15. The Book of Mormon is a terribly written piece of literature. If it was the literal, unadulterated word of God, he should go back to College Composition 101.

Maybe by some presentistic aesthetic standards, but it actually fits quite well into then-contemporary conventions about using KJV-sounding language to couch epic charter myths. Another example is The Late War.

Did I just see an admition to the BoM being a Myth - too good to be true!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —

(15-01-2014 09:21 AM)Timber1025 Wrote: Did I just see an admition to the BoM being a Myth - too good to be true!

I don't know what an "admition" is, but it absolutely is a charter myth. You may not understand exactly what that means because of a lack of understanding of what the word "myth" actually means in this context, though.