time is perceived, however really only the moment can be grasped. and on further analysis the moment is emptiness. it can be fleetingly grasped as such. the feeling within the nondual experience is the flowing moment, the ''presence'' of dzogchen is seen to be the same as the ever present moment. nature and moment, presence and emptiness are all one and even that one is not. nor is it not.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Thanks for the answers. I think i can roughly understand intellectually what 'timelessness' seems to be now. 'Past' and 'Future' seems to be irrelevant, because when we try to experience them, there is no such thing, only what is being experienced directly instantly.

When the construct of time dissolves, what is 'impermanence'? Or is it merely a characteristic of relative truth?

wisdomfire wrote:Thanks for the answers. I think i can roughly understand intellectually what 'timelessness' seems to be now. 'Past' and 'Future' seems to be irrelevant, because when we try to experience them, there is no such thing, only what is being experienced directly instantly.

When the construct of time dissolves, what is 'impermanence'? Or is it merely a characteristic of relative truth?

In fact, "Present" does not "exists" either, at the moment you try to catch it, i's already the "Past" ...

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

sonam, i am sorry to disagree... if you are able to apprehend presence, you are able to apprehend the moment. they are one. this computer is the moment... you can apprehend it.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus wrote:sonam, i am sorry to disagree... if you are able to apprehend presence, you are able to apprehend the moment. they are one. this computer is the moment... you can apprehend it.

best wishes, Tom.

Present is an inexisting moment in between past and futur ... to be in the instant presence is not to apprehend the present, it's to be completely devoided of the three times.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Dronma wrote:In fact, when we are apprehending the present moment mentally, at the same time that moment has already gone....

You're not using the correct technique. The trick is to pick the present moment which will happen a little bit in the future and then quickly apprehend. You have to hit the exact spot, so that the act of mental apprehension is synchronized with the coming present moment. Beginners could start training with small intervals with little bits of past and future in them and then slowly cut on both ends.

Dronma wrote:In fact, when we are apprehending the present moment mentally, at the same time that moment has already gone....

You're not using the correct technique. The trick is to pick the present moment which will happen a little bit in the future and then quickly apprehend. You have to hit the exact spot, so that the act of mental apprehension is synchronized with the coming present moment. Beginners could start training with small intervals with little bits of past and future in them and then slowly cut on both ends.

Yes, it works also like that ...

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Dronma wrote:In fact, when we are apprehending the present moment mentally, at the same time that moment has already gone....

You're not using the correct technique. The trick is to pick the present moment which will happen a little bit in the future and then quickly apprehend. You have to hit the exact spot, so that the act of mental apprehension is synchronized with the coming present moment. Beginners could start training with small intervals with little bits of past and future in them and then slowly cut on both ends.

Dronma wrote:In fact, when we are apprehending the present moment mentally, at the same time that moment has already gone....

You're not using the correct technique. The trick is to pick the present moment which will happen a little bit in the future and then quickly apprehend. You have to hit the exact spot, so that the act of mental apprehension is synchronized with the coming present moment. Beginners could start training with small intervals with little bits of past and future in them and then slowly cut on both ends.

Good joke.....!!!!

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

you are the present moment. hard to grasp? not really, body is with you all the time. this is the oneness or non duality of moment and person... all the same, all one. you will know what i am saying if you see the dharma nature clearly.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus wrote:... you will know what i am saying if you see the dharma nature clearly.

best wishes, Tom.

What else, then, can we say?

(another knower ... this forum is fantastic! alleluhia )Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

White Lotus wrote:you are the present moment. hard to grasp? not really, body is with you all the time. this is the oneness or non duality of moment and person... all the same, all one. you will know what i am saying if you see the dharma nature clearly.

best wishes, Tom.

Thank you, Master!!!!

"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour" ~ Padmasambhava ~

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus wrote:you are the present moment. hard to grasp? not really, body is with you all the time. this is the oneness or non duality of moment and person... all the same, all one. you will know what i am saying if you see the dharma nature clearly.

best wishes, Tom.

But then again if there is no duality, the whole concept of "present" does not arise to begin with, yes? How can "present" arise when there is nothing there to differentiate it? It seems to me that "present" is simply the other side of the duality of "present vs not-present". Nonduality doesn't mean just 1/2 of the situation, it mean none of the above! When there is actuality non duality, both disappear, It seems to me. Nothing more than a word, not something real. Just an idea that is still trapped in time.

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

LastLegend wrote:If things are impermanent, that means time exists to reinforce it?

Impermanence is just a skillful way to have one directly perceive the futility of grasping at appearances, and it aids one in understanding that suffering arises from such activity. "Things" are impermanent, because "things" are abstractions born of conceptualization and they rely on you as an individual to exist. So impermanence is just a way to expedite the realization that no peace can be found in dualistic grasping. As soon as the "I" is conceived, time is born, space is born, beginning and end are born and everything which depends on these faculties subsequently manifests, all are predicated on that one seed. One is then slain by time due to identifying with delusion and it just compounds as habitual tendencies become more engrained. The common sense view then becomes "I exist, I was born and in time I will die", reminds me of a friend's band from sacramento... one of their albums is titled; "Time... The Destroyer", everything is destroyed by time. But does time exist? Do things exist? Do you exist as you believe you do? Were you born and will you die? These are questions the Dharma will answer if applied correctly.

LastLegend wrote:If things are impermanent, that means time exists to reinforce it?

Impermanence is just a skillful way to have one directly perceive the futility of grasping at appearances, and it aids one in understanding that suffering arises from such activity. "Things" are impermanent, because "things" are abstractions born of conceptualization and they rely on you as an individual to exist. So impermanence is just a way to expedite the realization that no peace can be found in dualistic grasping. As soon as the "I" is conceived, time is born, space is born, beginning and end are born and everything which depends on these faculties subsequently manifests, all are predicated on that one seed. One is then slain by time due to identifying with delusion and it just compounds as habitual tendencies become more engrained. The common sense view then becomes "I exist, I was born and in time I will die", reminds me of a friend's band from sacramento... one of their albums is titled; "Time... The Destroyer", everything is destroyed by time. But does time exist? Do things exist? Do you exist as you believe you do? Were you born and will you die? These are questions the Dharma will answer if applied correctly.

Ok. A table is broken and found at the dumpster, and over time it will become rotten, it will no longer be the table is it?

NAMO AMITABHANAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)Linjii―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―

LastLegend wrote:Ok. A table is broken and found at the dumpster, and over time it will become rotten, it will no longer be the table is it?

It has never been a table ... it always have been just a name.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -