@bleninsopthebrave AZtecs is also another strong “Barbara” story. I enjoy The Romans too despite the lapse into Benny Hill type farce. I only wish that Marco Polo had not been trashed or the Crusades.
Cheers
Janette

(sigh) With all the sad news in the world right now of man’s inhumanity to man, I’m tempted to put extra impetus on the Christmas special to make things up for this crummy year.

For me, at this point I won’t be fully satisfied unless everybody who ever cared for Twelve appears (including Clara and River and Missy, so he knows he redeemed her), he gets to have 1,000 more years before regenerating, the Time Lords and Ohila come grovelling back to him begging for forgiveness, and he gets a day of glorious universe-saving triumph as his predecessors did. (Technically of course, he got that in “Hell Bent” but wasn’t acknowledged for saving it.) 😉

Okay, so — still no word on who the villain in this story is? At this point, it has to be

A really big deal recurring villain (Daleks with or without Davros, next incarnation of the Master, Time Lords etc.)

A generic one-off villain because Moffat and co. want to focus on the Doctors, following on from the general tradition of the Christmas shows (i.e. the Sycorax, the Racnoss, Max Capricorn, Mercy Hartigan, the Dream Crabs, King Hydroflax…)

No villain at all and the Doctors are just trying to fix the frozen time problem, which perhaps turns out to be caused by regeneration reluctance

I think 3 would actually be the best for this particular concept, especially if it’s only an hour long, but that doesn’t fit with the synopsis bringing up “humanity’s resilience” or “darkest frozen moment” (which is rich to bring up after “Heaven Sent”, when nobody in the whole darned universe loved the Doctor enough to help him).

Between that, the “Have you no emotions, sir?” line, the Moff discussing how evil can be logical, and the story taking place during/after Cybermen encounters depending on which Doctor’s perspective is looked at, I wouldn’t be surprised if this were also a Cyberman story. However, just having Twelve defeat them again doesn’t really add anything to his story, so there must be something more to the threat — maybe a new character collaborating with them?

Also, about the “embracing change” theme — I also brought this up over on the “The Doctor Falls” thread, but I think there’s a big thematic hole with regards to Bill. Thanks to unhappy circumstance she had to become Cyber!Bill at some point to keep on living, but didn’t want to keep living if she couldn’t be herself and in the end she was restored to a better form of her old self. But the Twelfth Doctor doesn’t want to keep living if he can’t be himself, yet the whole point of this special is getting him to embrace an unwanted, painful change that results in identity loss, to see the good in it. This sounds like a thoughtless double standard.

So…perhaps Bill will decide to become Cyber!Bill again in this special and choose to make the most of it as a good Cyberman, one free of the hive mind? Realizing that she and the Doctor have been silly to resist change instead of embracing it. And this example helps encourage Twelve to make his own scary change. Who likes this idea? 🙂

Also, another theory about Christmas — Michelle Gomez confirmed that Missy won’t appear in this special, but that statement doesn’t rule out the next Master appearing. So, perhaps they will appear, and to the Twelfth Doctor’s joy and rapture they are a good guy or girl now thanks to his efforts! What a wonderful way to remind him that change can be embraced and good. What do you think?

Thanks to unhappy circumstance she had to become Cyber!Bill at some point to keep on living, but didn’t want to keep living if she couldn’t be herself and in the end she was restored to a better form of her old self. But the Twelfth Doctor doesn’t want to keep living if he can’t be himself, yet the whole point of this special is getting him to embrace an unwanted, painful change that results in identity loss, to see the good in it. This sounds like a thoughtless double standard.

You can accuse writers of a lot but “thoughtless” aint one of ’em. The Doctor keeps changing. Bill’s a human and wants to be with someone which she can’t be if she’s a machine. Doc’s had his romance, kids, grandkids etc.

So…perhaps Bill will decide to become Cyber!Bill again in this special and choose to make the most of it as a good Cyberman, one free of the hive mind? Realizing that she and the Doctor have been silly to resist change instead of embracing it. And this example helps encourage Twelve to make his own scary change. Who likes this idea?

And I think the other Doctor, the other alien will talk it over with himself. Bill’s a mere human doomed to repeating herself over and over and understandably can’t help but resist change because all of us humans are like that sometime. Still, if she has Heather, which she probably does, then whether she ‘changes ‘ or not is redundant because either she’s happy and in love or she’s already changed and can’t change back hoping for some other result.

So, perhaps they will appear, and to the Twelfth Doctor’s joy and rapture they are a good guy or girl now thanks to his efforts

Considering Gomez, when asked, said “guid? I don’t think so!” then no. You need the Master as antagonist for balance : a terrific villain otherwise= show collapse/we’re sucked into a black hole. But right now, they’re dead which I think was a hilarious way of dealing with the pair of sneaky two-shoes.

I think 3 would actually be the best for this particular concept, especially if it’s only an hour long, but that doesn’t fit with the synopsis bringing up “humanity’s resilience” or “darkest frozen moment” (which is rich to bring up after “Heaven Sent”, when nobody in the whole darned universe loved the Doctor enough to help him).

Oh absolutely. No-one (or is it no “it” if it’s a gender neutral species with several brains meaning “no-one” doesn’t work no more?) loves him/her or wants to help him/her. He wanders around on his own all the time with no-body or “no-it” to talk to so I reckon it’s a very sad thing for him too. But he’s plenty plucky and spunky.

Hot damn I tried to delete that entire post @missrori. So don’t read it. I don’t think there’s anything there that’s new and it is pretty long. I have to study some commerce. That, or watch the football.

Probably Steven Moffat didn’t want his tweaks to be categorised as ‘haven’t finished the script’, or alternatively, rather than tweaks, there were lines that couldn’t be spoken until Jodie Whittaker was official.

It may be also be some massive reveal that they want kept secret as late as possible. If I remember correctly, the Missy reveal was filmed on location, but the dialogue itself was ADR’d later. Given that Peter now can’t be fired for talking out of turn in an interview 🙂 it’s possible it’s even being kept secret from him.

@thane15 No problem Thane. 🙂 I like considering what you have to say. But I’m not sure Who couldn’t survive without the Master as an arch enemy. I know there are fans who would appreciate older enemies like the Valeyard returning…maybe somebody like that could take over for a few seasons? 😀

Also…the Twelfth Doctor hoped for stars when he (almost) died. So logically he at least needs to get his stars when he regenerates, but then he can’t be inside the Tardis for that because he can’t see stars from in there. So where might he become she instead? Something to think about!

It would depend how it was done. If you remember, Capaldi was in the 50th Anniversary episode (as was the First) and Moffat has never yet explained why that future Doctor appeared to help save Gallifrey. He explained the past Doctors, but never why it needed Capaldi Doc to complete the calculations. He just had him doing an awful lot of maths in his first series. 🙂

So if we see the Smith Doctor in the 50th Anniversary from Capaldi Doc’s side, so to speak, as Capaldi Doc joins all the earlier Doctors to try to save Gallifrey, that would be fine. The circle is complete; Capaldi Doc’s first appearance is also his last.

I was talking with an online friend elsewhere about the Doctor’s hope for stars when he nearly expired, and she agrees with me that it would be disappointing not to pick up on that in this special — to have him see stars as he regenerates. But who can provide them for him? She suggested either Bill or the TARDIS, but how would they know what he wants?

Also…could it be that the Captain is actually the next companion? If Bill isn’t coming back after this (at least not for some time), that would mean she and the Doctor part by the end of this special, and while several previous selves have regenerated alone, that just doesn’t seem like a fair shake for Twelve after all his trials. 😉 And having an absolute surprise companion, one not revealed as such until the episode airs, would make even more media headlines!

Alternatively, maybe the Captain isn’t the companion but we’ll get a surprise anyway — that in the course of the story Thirteen’s companion is introduced. This special seems awfully bare-bones casting-wise, so surely there are significant characters yet to be revealed. I still wonder who the antagonist is going to be; it would be a huge letdown to just keep using Cybermen — they need a Big Bad this time if that’s going to be the case.

In addition/alternately 😉 we will see the reformed Missy. Sure, everybody’s said she is not appearing, but they said that about Clara after “Face the Raven” and look what happened! 😀

Next question – are we going to crash land back at the university? I’m thinking that the casting of Mandip Gill and Tosin Cole is a little too old for ‘schoolteacher plus two pupils’, but would very nicely suit students (medical or postgrad) plus professor.

Wow. I just looked up Sharon D Clarke and her first role was as the Night Nurse in the Singing Detective. Now I will have to do that long overdue rewatch.

@bluesqueakpip Now I like that idea. I really really do want to know what became of Susan but hopefully she returns as a regenerated Susan. Being now ostensibly older than her “Grandfather” and male would make for an interesting dynamic.

(hmmm) Since it doesn’t appear that the Thirteenth Doctor’s companions will be introduced in “Twice Upon a Time” and we now know that the Captain isn’t one of those, the Christmas show is looking awfully bare. No Missy/Master, no Clara, and what look to be only minor roles for Ben and Polly.

No villains, even! 😀 If a fan-favorite baddie were being brought back, I think the BBC would be trumpeting it because that’s what they do; if it were an all-new threat…well, the Xmas shows aren’t much for coming up with original villains, so perhaps we don’t want that.

On the one hand, this was a last-minute special in a sense and it could well be made from a place of hunger, but is a minimalist episode with only four significant characters for the bulk of the story (two of whom are the same person) really what Twelve’s era should go out on when his previous selves got grandiose send-offs? It’s hardly “magical” as promised. Where’s Missy or her next self, Clara, the Paternoster Gang, Ohila, River Song, the General, the other Time Lords, Susan Foreman, etc.?

I really don’t want poor Twelve to die alone. How about having Idris return for a few moments? 😉

There are strong rumours that Jenna Coleman has done some filming – but they’re rumours. 🙂 So I wouldn’t necessarily presume that characters are not present just because they haven’t been announced. It’s not unknown for the Doctor Who team to film in the middle of a military base in order to keep their Christmas secrets, or on the top of buildings – smuggling the actors in under a blanket.

@bluesqueakpip You’re right of course not to give up hope for surprise appearances, but lately the BBC has been awfully blabby on big developments in their promotional materials. 😉 And why haven’t there been rumors about all those other characters who could show up?

Steven Moffat was pretty sparing of his final bows with Matt Smith – basically, Matt got both his main companions, but not the subordinate companions (like Rory). However, he did get just about every single possible monster that he’d fought.

I think the Grand Moff might well be a bit wary of the long goodbye to every possible companion that Russell T Davies did – it worked as a goodbye, but not when you’re probably going to be rewatching on DVD forty years later (with audio commentary). So I wouldn’t be shocked if what we get is Clara and Bill (Twelve’s two main companions), plus Peter Capaldi’s favourite monsters. Plus David Bradley. Plus, possibly, Susan. And a Special that is written to be rewatchable.

The BBC seem to be treating the return of the First Doctor as the big reveal; plus that some of the story involves moments of frozen time. To me, that suggests that the Big Villain is the Time Lords. Or a Time Lord. Or possibly even the Doctor… 🙂

@bluesqueakpip Well, PCap already got to face off with the Mondasian Cybermen and other classic monsters in his tenure. And having a Doctor be the “big” villain would be kind of grim for what’s intended as a fun story after “The Doctor Falls”. Maybe they’re playing the Valeyard or Rassilon for comedy, which would be cool. 🙂

True: Doctor 11 had a really lovely send off on Trenzalore which, if you’d read the people who are supposed to be in that send-off you’d find it “awfully bare” too I guess. Pretty much everything is awfully bare if it doesn’t have an entire musical cast including Ohila, a pile of people like the Paternoster Gang (I was glad they didn’t appear this year), more aliens, Rassilion and River.

By now we know River’s fab story is finished and what a high note that was!

Also subtlety and nuance is often Moffat’s way. Not always though, and I totally see your point MissR 😉

I think using Ohila in the Midnight special with Doctor 8 was essential -because “timelord science is elevated on….” (that planet) and also on Gallifrey before The snakey helper of Davros tried to find the Doctor who was hiding…..in any other place what relevance is there in an hr long story for Ohila?

When you write a story, the less characters the better. You can delve into them properly.

Also with Clara and I know that @sirclockface saw that picture of her, and the WW1 accessories but it could be a wind -up to get people talking OR even better it’s Clara but not Clara. She doesn’t know him he doesn’t know her. She could be like a twin. Like Rose playing The Moment? That would be cool. We’ve shed too many tears about Clara who’s leading a terrific life with the mad chick in The Tardis Diner. Let her be in my opinion. And get ready to move on, I didn’t think Mat Smith seeing Amy was really necessary in his final ‘chapter’ -it’s done to placate those who want ‘more Amy’ or ‘more River’.