The philosopher Schopenhauer claimed that "woman is by nature meant to obey" and this view would be held by many men in the SES. Since leaving the SES and joining other spiritual groups the above view was also to be found amongst them. The leaders were all men with women mainly taking a supportive roll in the organisation. Unless a spiritual organisation has an equal balance at the top between men (reason) and women (love) it cannot function properly. The SES will never achieve this by following the Laws of Manu, but by simply allowing woman freedom to give of their best to the organisation.

Well said Tootsie, I totally agree. Without balance there is chaos and gender roles in the past have proved this - in families and work. For there to be true ruling there needs to be reason and love. Im sure many families in the SES have suffered due to the oppressiveness and imbalance forced upon its members, Main areas of concern is the lack of necessary changes to ensure what happened at the children's schools never happens again, the gender issues and this discouragement from questioning things or being given straight and honest answers. This is really culty. We were literally discouraged from asking important questions about what was happening and issues we were concerned about. This is a most unhealthy atmosphere to be supposedly searching for the Truth - to believe without question ideas that were at best bizarre and at worst mind controlling - this organisation cannot change because it cannot allow people to ask real questions and give real answers because it doesnt have answers - its purpose is to make you believe they know a deeper truth and you dont understand. They play on this idea that you are on this path and the truth will be revealed to you - if you do the work. Numb your mind as much as possible, question nothing that may show them up for what they are and blindly believe all they tell you. I dont hold out much hope for them changing. If they were to become more transparent there would be no SES. Its a profitable business for quite a number of people - who among us would not like to have people working for free, paying lump sums of money (the longer youre in it the more you pay). donating towards our massive properties, leaving us legacies - hmm might even open up my own scool of truth.....

><strong>Joanna Eberhart</strong>: If I am wrong, I'm insane... but if I'm right, it's even worse than if I was wrong. >more famous quotes<Stepford Wives

Tootsie wrote:Unless a spiritual organisation has an equal balance at the top between men (reason) and women (love) it cannot function properly.

I would take this further and say that unless a country or society has an equal balance at the top between men and women it cannot function properly. I look around the world, through reading books, newspapers, watching TV programmes and I see that the societies where men dominate and women are subjugated are, frankly, a disaster area. There are wars, misery, cruelty to children, slavery. The contribution of women in this world as a force for good should not be underestimated. Men are great, I like them a lot. But women are fabulous. No question!! (Of course I can't offer an example of a society where women dominate because there don't seem to be any. Maybe they would be awful as well. I suspect so!).

Also, this stuff about men being 'reason' and women 'emotion' - it is so passé. I read somewhere that there are probably about 9 different genders. We all have a mix of the different attributes in different proportions. You just cannot standardise on 2 genders and compartmentalise everyone on that basis. It is bollocks.

Stiltrubld - I very much enjoyed your post and would be interested in anything you have to say further on the matter of the way SES presents its ideas in a covert and dishonest manner.

Also, it was an interesting point that Tootsie made about putting up with things in the School because everyone else is doing it. I was once on a study day and our 'Leader' walked into the room. Everyone stood up. To my horror, I found myself doing the same. I've wondered many a time since whether I would have remained seated had I had a moment to think. I fear not. It's difficult to be the odd one out.

Men are great, I like them a lot. But women are fabulous. No question!! (Of course I can't offer an example of a society where women dominate because there don't seem to be any. Maybe they would be awful as well. I suspect so!).

I couldn’t agree more.

Pity it seems to be such a struggle sometimes to find a genuine balance.

It would be great to hear from some of the fellas on the forum about this topic. It has been really refreshing to hear from the men on this board about some of the practices and past problems in SES.

Men don’t need a ‘Teaching’ or an ancient text to understand women, they can just talk to us! A good friend explained it to me once like this: Men are from Earth, women are from Earth – get on with it!

Stiltrubld

Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

I cant believe the amount of tosh I listened to hour after hour, week after week, whilst wondering what was wrong with me because I seemed to be the only one shocked by what I was hearing, but still I sat there. I think it has something to do with not wanting to be the odd one out who doesn't agree with what's being said and done when everyone else seems agreeable - not wanting to "cause trouble" through my apparent ignorance.

Once you start to try to work it out it all becomes quite fascinating in a way. I found on this website in response to my own quest to understand all this, a description of an experiment about ‘8 points on a piece of paper’, see this link (under 'Tales of 50 women'): http://www.ses-forums.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=523 it’s a post by mgormez towards the bottom of the page. Basically it indicates that people tend to follow others, even when confronted with facts to the contrary, we just don’t like being the odd one out.

I also found your assessment of the ‘exercise’, residentials and other practices interesting. It gets confusing trying to establish what is ‘useful’ and what is leading somewhere else that another wants you to go... . The thing about the ‘ego’ is that we all have one (actually the funniest thing is when after a while in SES people start to think they have not got one anymore!) and so does the organisation. Reading Gangaji’s book (‘The diamond in your pocket’) she speaks of the ego and the superego, and what happens when people begin to ‘wake up’ to the understanding of their own ego is that they tend to have a battle or inner conversation with themselves, which she describes as the ego and the superego (ie the ‘bad’ and the ‘good’ part of any individual – based on one’s own assessment of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ which of course comes from one’s own experiences or values presented to us from childhood onwards).

I highly recommend Gangaji’s book ‘A diamond in your pocket’ for those here that miss the actual (so-called) teaching. She is an American who spent some time with an Indian teacher. I don’t like to do this really, peddle alternative teachers! Because I am in no position to know how genuine she is, except that what she says and how she delivers it I have found seems genuine and has been very useful, especially with all the questions that have come up for me about the SES. Her work has helped me to unravel it and to move forward. The book is available in CD form from Amazon which I have, as I find her voice and manner to be part of her teaching. She does not have a set of ‘material’ or ‘conversations’ when she meets people (or a ‘following’ or organisation as such either) she simply goes around to various venues and you go along if you want. People go up to sit next to her and she talks to them. I found her own story here: http://www.gangaji.org/index.php?modules=content&op=all_excuses.

Something else that Gangaji talks about concerns the ‘specialness’ that a lot of people have mentioned on this forum, which tends to become an aspect of being a member of the SES, and can be one of the things that makes it hard to leave as you feel you will never have the opportunity again to continue with the ‘spiritual’ search you feel you have begun. This is what she has to say about that:

“At this point in our human history, what was once reserved for the most rare beings is available to ordinary people. Because we have considered ourselves ordinary, we have kept a certain door closed within our brains and within our hearts to the truth at the core of it all. But, at this time, there is a crack in our conditioning. If you are reading this, you are already aware of it to some degree or you wouldn’t have picked up the book. This is a time of the ordinary awakening. This means you, not only those born under the brightest stars but the ordinary person as well.”

I just thought that may be helpful for those such as myself that feel they have begun to understand something and don’t quite know how to take it further.

Stiltrubld

Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Associating oneself (in one's own mind) with a Brahmin class (and seeing oneself as therefore 'special') can surely only develop a massive superego and be dangerous to others and detrimental to ones own 'spiritual' awakening? Better not to go there! Stick with humility.

Like the line from the Desiderata...'Do not compare yourself with others or you may become vain and bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself'

Has anyone seen the original version of the Stepford Wives - you really need to watch it. Its quite old I think mid to late 70's and stars Katherine Ross - boy its chilling! Especially when you compare how the SES wants its women to look and behave. And the leader of the "Mens Association" eek! I havent seen the later version with Nicole Kidman but I think it was meant to be a bit more lighthearted - but the original is the one to watch. If your looking for a scary story this Christmas - I dare you to watch this film - and feel glad we did question and finally reject this nonsense - or we too, couldve ended up like those ladies in the supermarket (albeit in dress and subservience only). I read a post earlier about how the SES married off some of their young girls to older men - watch out for the bit in the film "Frank, Frank you're the king, you're the king".

Some of this film was frightening because there was the recognition that maybe in some strange Organisation or School the idea of this type of perfect woman/wife that could/should not think for herself could happen - (that's what scared me when I watched it), having been where Ive been with the SES - the film doesnt seem as far fetched as it used to!! Thank goodness I was too old and frumpy (and a bit green in the complexion due to the fact I never did learn to evacuate in the one minute toilet rule for ladies) to be married off to one of their boring old geezers eh!

><strong>Joanna Eberhart</strong>: If I am wrong, I'm insane... but if I'm right, it's even worse than if I was wrong. >more famous quotes<Stepford Wives