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nickthegun wrote:
There are quite a few english players playing abroad. Admittedly, a lot of them are journeymen after a final pay day, but there is a reasonable amount of talent playing all over europe.

I meant who went abroad to develop and gain experience at a young age, not to cash in at the twilight of their careers.

There was a recent player from a top club who rejected s loan bid to Ajax for QPR.
I'm aware one wants to stay close to their family, but from a career development point, playing for Ajax week in week out is far far more beneficial for any young player.

@mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.

And even if you take journeymen into consideration, "a reasonable amount" pales in comparison to the German, French, Spanish and other young players littered all over European academies.

Its actually a very unreasonable amount, when one considers the idea of developing young players.

And its not like young English players don't get offers, because they do. But its pretty much accepted that English players, especially the young ones, don't want to go abroad.
Which questions just how much they really want it.

Latin wrote:
@mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.

Give him time. He's only had 3 games. The Chelsea game was bore draw due to Chelsea's tactics more than ours.

You have to mitigate that with the fact that we have good academies all the way through the leagues. We have an infrastructure like nowhere in the world so we naturally take in far more players than other countries.

Its not that our players should be going to the likes of holland, its that they are far more likely to be picked up by an academy over here, so why should they go abroad?

Take the kid at QRR, as an example. The championship is probably a more competative league than the dutch top tier and he is far more likely to get noticed by a bigger club playing in london than he is in amsterdam. Its not purely 'he doesnt want it enough'. There are a million reasons why he elected to stay in england.

Latin wrote:
@mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.

Give him time. He's only had 3 games. The Chelsea game was bore draw due to Chelsea's tactics more than ours.

I'm all for patience, but this transfer window, his press conferences, his post match interviews and most importantly his team selections and substitutions have not filled me with any hope. He looks like Hodgson at Liverpool. Good managers but wrong clubs.

I'm sure the English game would be helped a great deal by not having such a hateful media attacking the coaches at every opportunity. Oh and a manager who actually tries to build for the future as opposed to just saying it.

nickthegun wrote:
You have to mitigate that with the fact that we have good academies all the way through the leagues. We have an infrastructure like nowhere in the world so we naturally take in far more players than other countries.

Its not that our players should be going to the likes of holland, its that they are far more likely to be picked up by an academy over here, so why should they go abroad?

Take the kid at QRR, as an example. The championship is probably a more competative league than the dutch top tier and he is far more likely to get noticed by a bigger club playing in london than he is in amsterdam. Its not purely 'he doesnt want it enough'. There are a million reasons why he elected to stay in england.

Completely disagree on virtually all counts.
For one, we don't have good academies all the way through, we have a very poor academy system beyond s handful of clubs (West Ham, Arsenal, Watford, Villa, Everton, Crewe, Southampton, Spurs are just some of the few.....and I'm dubious of even putting arsenal in there, beyond what arsenal fans think).
Its the entire reason why the FA and the PL forced the (somewhat rubbish) EPPP system upon UK Football. Grassroots football in this country is not good.

I really don't get where on what basis you feel we have infrastructure "like nowhere else in the world".

And do you honestly believe he'll get noticed by a "bigger club" (do you mean "British club"?) at QPR at one of the most renowned and arguably the best academies in the world? The level of education he'll get at Ajax utterly DESTORYS anything he'll learn at QPR if he wants to become a genuine top class player, rather than just get signed by Sunderland. And this was a loan for the first team, so he would even get the chance to play in Europe.
In fact just this week stats showed he Dutch league made more money tan any other league in selling players to top and decent clubs.

There can be a million reasons for why he didn't want to go but as someone who worked in the academy level, the number one reason was home sickness.

Latin wrote:
@mcmonkeyplc I am a fan but not filled with any confidence at the moment!

Moyes needs to go for it against City... If he settles for a draw against them, it will be 2 points against 3 top teams... 1 win and two loses gets more points. That's what he doesn't understand. Too cautious, he's not a winner, nothing in his career suggests he is.

Give him time. He's only had 3 games. The Chelsea game was bore draw due to Chelsea's tactics more than ours.

I'm all for patience, but this transfer window, his press conferences, his post match interviews and most importantly his team selections and substitutions have not filled me with any hope. He looks like Hodgson at Liverpool. Good managers but wrong clubs.

Come on. Apart from the retarded transfer window (mainly not his fault) he's made pretty much the same choices that Fergie would've.

graysonavich wrote:
Because a 10 minute appearance off the bench at FC Twente away would change the course of English international football for countless generations.

As supposed to a 10 minute appearance off the bench of QPR will do the trick.
Unless you actually have some insight to add, I'm not interested in participating in one of your borish passive-aggressive argumentative traps please.

I don't know about other United fans, but I'm inclined to give a bit of time to the new bloke in charge. Especially considering he was hand-picked by a man who spent the previous 26 years bringing us to where we are now. I'm sure he sort of knew what we were looking for in terms of a replacement.

I don't think he would have been so negative against Chelsea especially as Chelsea were so bad, he might have started with a similar set up but when it was clear they were offering nothing, I think he would have gone for it.

The Liverpool game was just small time mentality from Moyes, RVP was totally isolated and leaving Kagawa out of the squad entirely was a joke.

SolidSCB wrote:
I don't know about other United fans, but I'm inclined to give a bit of time to the new bloke in charge. Especially considering he was hand-picked by a man who spent the previous 26 years bringing us to where we are now. I'm sure he sort of knew what we were looking for in terms of a replacement.

I don't think he would have been so negative against Chelsea especially as Chelsea were so bad, he might have started with a similar set up but when it was clear they were offering nothing, I think he would have gone for it.

The Liverpool game was just small time mentality from Moyes, RVP was totally isolated and leaving Kagawa out of the squad entirely was a joke.

Fergies last act was basically telling Rooney to shut up and stay put.

What was negative about our approach to the Chelsea game?

The liverpool game was wank but I think losing Rooney so close to it effected us. I have no idea why Kags was left out, that is a massive mistake if he's fit, but according to his own press conference Moyes doesn't think he's match fit yet.