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Their desktop computer runs Windows because that is what runs Office, TurboTax, games, etc.

Who needs Windows to run a word processor? Who needs Windows to run TurboTax when the preparation companies own web based products work just fine in almost any web browser? Who needs Windows for games when there's a BSD running PS4?

Why is using the built in features of one runtime program but using the built in features of another runtime not programming?

That is a VERY good point, and you are technically correct, but I think the "real programmers" would laugh at me if I called that bit I did with sed, programming. We have to draw a line "somewhere".

You can write things like the game arkanoid or the calculator dc for sed. Do they suddenly become non-programs?

Well, sed IS Turing complete, true. But again, we have to draw a line "somewhere". Don't ask me where, I'm not a programmer! Yes, yes I've given sed, bash and BASIC examples in this discussion, but I can't program my way out of a paper bag.

That said, I think a course in scripting or computing concepts would be more useful to more people than teaching them Java (Personally I think they should use python). Knowing the very basics of if/then/else/do/while/for/next concepts has been useful for me. Heck just teaching people that there's more to computing than their web browser would be good.

So you're trying to prove that most people don't need to know who to write a program *by writing a program*?

Using the built in features of sed or vim, isn't "programming" "to me."

Now if you were talking about writing bash scripts, now that would be more akin to programming.. And personally I think knowing "scripting" would be more useful to more people than knowing "programming".

For example, if I wanted to check if list of websites were offline or not...I could open them in tabs.....or:

A batch script that extracts all lines from a CSV file containing the string "w00t" could save a single operator hours or days trying to do the same thing with search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... copy... paste... search... [ad nauseam].

Who needs a batch script.

sed -i".bak" '/w00t/d' foo.csv

I don't even know sed syntax, all it took was a bit of googling. Looks similar to vim syntax which I am slightly more familiar with. Open up the file in vim and:g/w00t/d

However, I've tried to make my own custom builds of Firefox and it's a nightmare. The build process used by Firefox is so complicated and convoluted, it would make Rube Goldberg laugh.

I once built a Firefox build on a PS2, I had the libs so I could enable a ton of features that the community builds didn't. The process was so horrible I only did it once....and then settled for the community builds even if they lacked gtk2 support (and other things)

I figured out that it was easier to IGNORE most of the build instructions and just do a standard traditional./configure, because setting up a frickin MOZCONFIG that worked was the devil's work.

Much like how Sony mistreated the guy who developed the original Playstation.

Ken Kuturagi, who was batshit insane in his design decisions. Developers complained about the arcane architecture of the PS2 and then he made something even MORE arcane.

Sure they're both extremely powerful for their time in certain ways, but Kuturagi forgot that developers are lazy, especially X86 devs and that they would be unwilling to take the extra measures for the most part.

Or we're gonna have to put up with an i3 with midrange discrete GPUs for the next 10 years as the "it must run on this configuration" system. Just like how we complained the PS3 and Xbox360 were holding back gaming... 4 years ago.

I take it you saw the Alienware Alpha? Maximum PC actually said it competes with current-gen consoles. And you can guess what I thought. "Not at that price ($599) with only a dual core and only 4GB of slow RAM"

The higher end versions are better, of course, but they also cost more.

True, and then hit you with a wrench until you cough up the passphrase, but that is not very likely.

The one I'm typing this on happens to run a tor relay node. How likely do you think it is that it isn't rootkitted, despite religious application of patches and generally following best practices for linux?

Rootkitted? I think that's unlikely, even the NSA isn't omnipotent. But do I think they are monitoring Tor nodes from their own nodes, probably. They'd only rootkit you if they wanted specific data from a specific person-of-interest, I think.