Comments on: Quit worrying about “urban sprawl” (and start worrying about federal stewardship)http://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/
The world’s first, full-service conservative Internet broadcast networkTue, 31 Mar 2015 22:04:40 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=3.9.3By: Livefiredrillhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-6013602
Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:16:04 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-6013602[...] July 11, 2012Quit worrying about urban sprawl Contrary to conventional wisdom, only a fraction of the United States is urbanized. Read more… [...]
]]>By: JeffVaderhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5957034
Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:11:59 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5957034Here’s another example of “Federal Stewardship” of our lands: its a practice the United States Forest Service call “road obliteration”. Google it and see. As you might suspect, the Forest Service takes existing road and trails and destroys them with heavy equipment so to completely eliminate the road bed by restoring natural contours and slopes.

Firstly, the whole practice of “road obliteration” is suspect. Why destroy existing roads? Secondly, the USFS has been doing this in overdrive and now wants to exempt the practice of from local and community input as well as normal environmental review. The hypocrisy here is overwhelming. We, as US citizens can not hike, ride your bike, or drive your vehicle on these roads, but the USFS can run large grading equipment, without review, through out the forest to permanently destroy the roads!

As to urban sprawl, it’s a concern because it’s what people experience. They aren’t driving hundreds of miles daily through the open spaces of America, they’re driving through … sprawl.

The problem is that greenies are right about packing too many folks into an allotted space. It puts strains on things, it can be irritating, and it gets noisy and stinky. The other problem is they are wrong in 1) their need to control everyone’s lives to solve the issue, and 2) the solutions they come up with.

One of the biggest problems is not requiring builders to pony up for infrastructure changes necessary to intelligently increase residential (or business) density in an area. Yes, zoning and development codes do have their uses. But, during the housing boom, all the local governments saw was increased property tax (and sales tax) revenues and all the developers saw was more profits from sales.

I live off a rural road, in one of numerous developments that used to be farmland. The older generation sold off that land as they could no longer work it, their kids having gone off to bigger and better things, and developers built on it as the area grew. The difficulty I face is that they didn’t improve the roads (or other infrastructure – we have broken telephone poles being held up by 2x4s nailed on either side, or by leaning another pole against it). No one required the developers to support the cost of their activities, and now we have a thousand families using a 1.9 lane road with no shoulder and deep ditches on either side. It takes forever to get out of the area in the morning (during the school year, anyway) because of the two drawbridges (one of which the Army Corps of Engineers won’t let us upgrade) which constrict traffic, and seven roads converging into one intersection. They finally required one developer (mainly because of the size of the proposed development) to improve one of the roads to a 3.8 lane outlet to the highway. (It is supposed to be 4-lane, but large pickups have difficulty staying between the lines as the road curves back and forth.)

The only way to use all that wonderful land out there, is to build communities on it. (Most people aren’t going to be content to live miles from everyone and everything else.) Of course, you have to have a reason to build a community, and putting in all the infrastructure of a city costs a lot of money when going from scratch. So, everyone complains about sprawl around the cities, but few folks want to go build a community elsewhere – because they will miss the city.

Currently there a plethora of crappy and tastefully done “empty” strip malls due to the current economy.

boardy9 on June 23, 2012 at 2:31 PM

I know. I had the misfortune to go to one of them in Texas a few years back, when meeting an Internet friend in real life.

The place was 3/4ths empty. Metal shutters and empty store windows all over. Lights were dimmed or off because almost nobody was there. What few businesses remained were ‘gansta’-themed clothing shops, cheap cellphones, and a couple selling bottom-end Chinese plasticrap goods. And don’t even get me started on the customers.

When it finally hit how bad things had gotten we made a beeline for the exit to go shopping elsewhere. I’ll never forget that place.

]]>By: orygunconhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955986
Sun, 24 Jun 2012 02:41:54 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955986Ironmarshal, you’re sadly mistaken. They’re building where they can get cheap land and selling for what they can get in the market. As mentioned above, many lots in urban/suburban Oregon are measured in sq feet (usually 5k to 7.5k). Now, I’d live in the neighborhood you describe if they weren’t insanely overpriced still, after the bubble. Here in Salem, Eugene and Portland during the bubble’s height, I saw houses on those small lots that went for 250k+ and that didn’t include AC (granite counters though). Utterly insane and overpriced. Southern and Central Oregon were worse though given they didn’t and still don’t have the industry to justify that expense.

I’d much prefer semi rural or suburban where I can have 1-5 acres to myself that doesn’t break the bank.

]]>By: ironmarshalhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955698
Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:53:37 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955698I’ve got to caution my conservative friends against the false association of Agenda 21 with issues of known derisively as smart growth. I want nothing to do with Agenda 21 or the UN, but the type of development we have encouraged through policies that encourage sprawl over the last 50 years aren’t conservative and aren’t smart…there is nothing wrong is believing that we can cut back on government by developing in different ways…and here’s some painful truth for those who think the future of the US is more 1 acre subdivisions out as far as the eye can see…the marketplace has largely rejected that model.

There are two growing demographics in the country, retiring babyboomers and GenX and Y. The building industry surveys those groups on a regular basis and what they have found over the last several years is that majorities of both groups want to live in the same type of communities for different reasons…compact, walkable, mixed use areas that give them access to public transit. That is the market the banks and builders are going to focus on.

There will always be a market for those who want to live in semi rural places but I don’t want to pay taxes to expand the road network to provide access for those people…suburban development of that type is heavily subsidized and don’t kid yourselves, gas taxes only pay about 50% of the cost of building and maintaining roads.

Those that think that smart growth is some sort of liberal conspiracy to get everyone to live in ghetto’s where they can be controled better readjust their tin foil hats…there are plenty of conservatives who see the economic and social benefits of community and community is created through physical proximity.

]]>By: jimverhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955477
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:52:32 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955477All you have to do is fly over the USA.

Schadenfreude on June 23, 2012 at 1:37 PM

Yep…..all our friends from Europe (UK, FRance, etc) who visited us here were amazed if not quite shocked at fhe amount of wide open spaces seen clearly from the plane, but also driving around gives one a pretty good ode of how low the population density and țe ‘urban sprawl’ are in many areas in the US, with the exception maybe of the NE coast and sure, some of califormia….. though if you come think anout, N of Sacramento (which is not a conurbation by an stretch) there is absolutely not a single large urban area till probably Portland…and then the next one is Seattle…makes me smile when I think about what a crammed little island England is by comparison..

]]>By: Kissmygritshttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955476
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:51:49 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955476Those who believe in the myth of urban sprawl do so because they have been told over and over that it is a problem. The solution would be to live in population clusters so we could ride bikes, public transportation and take high speed rail to other population clusters. The pine beetle has done severe damage out West as well. Millions of acres of otherwise useful timber has been wasted. Lawsuits brought by eco nuts to sympathetic judges have halted logging and the creation of jobs. Where’s that teary eyed Indian when we need one. Oh, right, running for the senate in Mass.
]]>By: rclhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955464
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:47:27 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955464Erika,

Please follow up on this subject. The Feds, enviros and Big Agra have been assaulting land use and water rights in the West for decades. The issue is ignored except in regional and ranch journals. The defeat of these fascist tactics is essential for the freedom of all Americans.

And here are two articles revolving around the wicked Jon Marvel. He hates red meat and has decided to destroy the cattle business in America. He has the judges and the Feds on his side. He’s attacked one family after another for twenty years. That he hasn’t been shot in all that time proves how law abiding these western families are. They’re all armed and capable but for God knows what reason they keep foolishly putting faith in the justice of American law.

]]>By: Common Sensehttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955379
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:06:28 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955379Most people don’t realize that most of the western states are owned by the Federal government.

In contract, very little of the eastern states is owned by the Feds, probably because they were settled during a time when the government was still limited in the true meaning of the Constitution.

It greatly limits what the people can do within their own state.

During the past 16 years, Colorado has been hit by a slew of monstrous fires that destroy 100s of thousands of acres of forest. Because of Federal restrictions on most, if not all, of these lands, none of it gets cleaned up, leaving even more fuel for the next fire.

We lost our family cabins in the Buffalo Creek Fire, May 19, 1996. It was the first of the monster fires, burning 12,000 acres in one day. It was the largest fire in CO history at the time but has been far exceeded since, including by the current High Park Fire.

Even though our area had been logged previously, early in the 20th century, because it’s national park land no one was allowed to recover the wood. Most of the trees were still usable wood on the inside. When we rebuilt, we used a number of them for deck posts and railings inside and out. It was days of hard labor planing away the charcoaled outside, but we have a beautiful result. Imagine if loggers and individuals had been able to get in there right away, before the trees rotted away, how many uses there would have been for the wood, even if just for firewood (which many people pay for). There would be less fuel for the next fire and fewer snags to fall on unsuspecting hikers.

We have 3 more fires that started today, Estes Park, Colorado Springs, and Mancos. How much of Colorado has to burn before the Feds take responsibility for true management of the land?

Of course the real answer is to give back ownership to the states and the people of the states. People tend to take better care of what is theirs.

The federal government owns and manages a full third of the United States’ surface area

And yet almost none of it complies with the Constitution! Here are all the Constitutional uses for land for the Federal Government…

Article I Section 8…

Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

Funny… I don’t see any mention of federal parks, preserves, forests or any other use, except for the erection of “needful buildings”.

Quick math question: If all the people on earth were brought together physically and all stood in circles with 8 foot diameters (so no one would be touching anyone else, even at arm’s length)how much of the world would they take up?

Answer: About one fifth of the state of Florida.

Don’t believe me? Do the math.

Buford Gooch on June 23, 2012 at 4:44 PM

I remember hearing that standing sholder to shoulder all people in the would would fit inside the city limits of Ft. Lauderdale.

]]>By: Buford Goochhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955232
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:44:03 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955232Quick math question: If all the people on earth were brought together physically and all stood in circles with 8 foot diameters (so no one would be touching anyone else, even at arm’s length)how much of the world would they take up?

UN Agenda 21 – Coming to a Neighborhood near You,
The American Thinker

Most Americans are unaware that one of the greatest threats to their freedom may be a United Nations program known as Agenda 21. The United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Division for Sustainable Development created Agenda 21 as a sustainability agenda which is arguably an amalgamation of socialism and extreme environmentalism brushed with anti-American, anti-capitalist overtones.

Agenda 21 and the Threat in Your Backyard, The American Thinker

Ready to trade in your car for a bike, or maybe a subway instead? Interested in fewer choices for your home, paying more for housing, and being crammed into a denser neighborhood? You can have all this and more if radical environmentalists and “smart growth” advocates have their way and local, state, and the federal government impose the policies set forth in the United Nations’ Agenda 21.

Agenda 21: Conspiracy Theory or Threat, American Policy Center

petefrt on June 23, 2012 at 2:47 PM

Bears repeating.

Excellent links. Thank you!

I already live in a state that loves it some Agenda 21. Others don’t, so your post is liable to open some eyes to this threat.

Not to mention no use of slurry in that wilderness. If they would have dozed and dropped, Wallow Fire would have been over in a day and all that habitat would have been saved. I laughed each morning in the briefings when the Circus bioligists were only concerned about the wolves. They were tracking them daily with a helicopter while Escudilla burned.

In the Portland, OR metro area, there are tons of aesthetically beautiful, well built, ecologically friendly, and very expensive office buildings and strip malls that are empty. Also, every square inch of Oregon is zoned. If one has a new or relatively new home inside the urban growth boundary, more than likely the lot is measured in square feet, and the cost is likely to resemble the cost of water front property in the south.

]]>By: hazchichttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955193
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:29:39 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955193Thanks to Forest Circus “stewardship” we have lost close to 1 million acres of forest here in AZ in just one year.
]]>By: AZfederalisthttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955144
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:12:43 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955144

They do not care about preserving anything for future generations only controlling the current generations.

Rio Linda Refugee on June 23, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Why, I’m absolutely shocked you would say that. Just look at all of their literature and listen to all of their interviews with MSM journalists. They always say that the draconian measures they support are for the benefit of future generations. You can’t mean to imply that they are lying about that future generations part and that they just want that draconian power in order to control people, can you? If that’s what they are doing, that would be just diabolical, and these are nice people, they tell us that themselves. They even smile when they are saying that.

/s

]]>By: AcidRefluxhttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955143
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:12:17 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955143If any of these environmental knuckleheads ever looked out the window of their Gulfstream or 737 any where in these U.S. other than parts of the right and left coasts they would realize how empty this country is.
]]>By: petefrthttp://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/23/quit-worrying-about-urban-sprawl-and-start-worrying-about-federal-stewardship/comment-page-1/#comment-5955114
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:03:28 +0000http://hotair.com/?p=202715#comment-5955114

We have been fighting it up here in NE Arizona.

chemman on June 23, 2012 at 3:00 PM

And here in the mountain wilderness of western PA too. It’s insidious, creeping from the bottom up, as well as top down. Whenever someone says “sustainable”, run the other way.