contrails can only form at very high altitudes (30,000 feet above sea level) under very specific conditions.

I´ve seen jumbo jet formations flying in circles at ridiculously low altitudes (like a few thousand feet above ground!! and this is an area where
ground is only a a few hundred feet above sea level) spraying chemtrails.

these planes were low enough that i could see that there were no passenger windows

One absolutely massive, enormous, gigantic problem is that he has brought solar radiation into the equation.

It is a well known fact that solar radiation does not melt ice in the atmosphere. If this were true, then high level clouds such as cirrus,
cirrostratus and cirrocumulus (not created by planes) would not exist at all. The ice, reflects it. Why do you think the ice caps stay cold? Snow and
ice does not absorb heat....it relfects it, lol....keeping it COLD.

Another flaw there is the fact that he said ice in contrails melts. It doesnt melt, it can move into drier air and dissipate, but it still stays at
ice. Its simple logic. Put a glass of water in the freezer at home and tell me what happens, does the water evaporate into gas? Or does it freeze to
ice?

Darn!!! You beat me to it... My neighbor builds air planes, I asked him last night his opinion on this. He said exactly the same thing (well, pretty
much). Its almost the same as when you see the exhaust from a vehicle, yet sometimes you dont. Certain conditions alow exhaust to be better seen.
Great post!!!

contrails can only form at very high altitudes (30,000 feet above sea level) under very specific conditions.

I´ve seen jumbo jet formations flying in circles at ridiculously low altitudes (like a few thousand feet above ground!! and this is an area where
ground is only a a few hundred feet above sea level) spraying chemtrails.

these planes were low enough that i could see that there were no passenger windows

[edit on 8/6/2008 by sp00n1]

Ever heard of wing tip vortices? These can happen at lower altitudes and cause cloud like effects

these were very thick plumes that persisted for hours and did not originate from the tips of the wings. the plumes came from what i can only assume
were nozzles on the wings *NEAR* the engines, as well as from the mid-section bottom of the fuselage.

and these plumes continues to form even once the planes stopped going in circles.

not to mention how odd it is to see jumbo jets flying in formations at low altitudes over residential areas.

One absolutely massive, enormous, gigantic problem is that he has brought solar radiation into the equation.

It is a well known fact that solar radiation does not melt ice in the atmosphere. If this were true, then high level clouds such as cirrus,
cirrostratus and cirrocumulus (not created by planes) would not exist at all.

Perhaps it's you who doesn't realize that the physics of cloud formation is an entirely different process?

As mentioned earlier, the physics of cloud formation are an entirely separate process, and are highly dependent upon temperature, relative
humidity, aerosol type and the size of aerosol particles that are introduced. Any alterations in the formation of cloud processes as they have been
repeatedly observed and recorded must necessarily consider the impact of these aerosols, identified and unidentified, within the analysis.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Perhaps it's you who doesn't realize that the physics of cloud formation is an entirely different process?

Considering I look at clouds and analyse upper air conditions for a living, I think I would know how a cloud forms. Aerosols are not a key requirment
for developing clouds. If this were the case, I doubt we would have actually had any clouds prior to the industrial age.

Again, Cliff Carnicoms science is flawed

I should say that dust particles can increase water droplet size and weight (see cloud seeding) which only puts emphasis on aircraft exhaust creating
contrails.

It seems to me that the first signs of spraying are when the X marks the spot then the grid is laid down. I have seen several trails where the plane
has executed U turns, What? Did they forget the coffee?

For what it's worth... I fly jets and I see contrails of every imaginable pattern emenating from jets above and below my flight path. Also if you
take a tour of an ATC facility you will see that virtually all aircraft have associated transponder codes and in most parts of North America, that
traffic is airliner traffic. I doubt that unknown chemicals are being dispersed by airliners. If there are military tests occuring where chemicals
are being dumped into the atmosphere, I'd say that it is certainly the exception and not prevalent like some would claim. Any of the photos that I
see here look pretty normal to me.

Did anyone read about the research that was done after 9/11 when all aircraft were grounded? They were checking to see what the atmosphere was like
with and without contrails being formed. I can't remember what effect that the contrails had on weather but I think they determined that it had some
effect.

Because there is an existing narrative of fear on this subject people will try to convince themselves that no matter what expertise or scientific data
they are presented it is far more romantic to believe otherwise.

Ignoring any post from someone who calls himself "wrathchild" (sounds about right), there's at least one upper management airline employee who
disagrees with you and even knows the operation name, "Project Cloverleaf":

I read the email you received from the anonymous mechanic and felt compelled to respond to it. I, too, work for an airline, though I work in upper
management levels. I will not say which airline, what city I am located, nor what office I work for, for obvious reasons. I wish I could document
everything I am about to relate to you, but to do so is next to impossible and would result in possible physical harm to me.

The email from the anonymous mechanic rings true. Airline companies in America have been participating in something called Project Cloverleaf for a
few years now. The earliest date anyone remembers being briefed on it is 1998. I was briefed on it in 1999. The few airline employees who were briefed
on Project Cloverleaf were all made to undergo background checks, and before we were briefed on it we were made to sign non-disclosure agreements,
which basically state that if we tell anyone what we know we could be imprisoned.

About twenty employees in our office were briefed along with me by two officials from some government agency. They didn't tell us which one. They
told us that the government was going to pay our airline, along with others, to release special chemicals from commercial aircraft. When asked what
the chemicals were and why we were going to spray them, they told us that information was given on a need-to-know basis and we weren't cleared for
it. They then went on to state that the chemicals were harmless, but the program was of such importance that it needed to be done at all costs. When
we asked them why didn't they just rig military aircraft to spray these chemicals, they stated that there weren't enough military aircraft available
to release chemicals on such a large basis as needs to be done. That's why Project Cloverleaf was initiated, to allow commercial airlines to assist
in releasing these chemicals into the atmosphere. Then someone asked why all the secrecy was needed. The government reps then stated that if the
general public knew that the aircraft they were flying on were releasing chemicals into the air, environmentalist groups would raise hell and demand
the spraying stop. Someone asked one of the G-men then if the chemicals are harmless, why not tell the public what the chemicals are and why we are
spraying them? He seemed perturbed at this question and told us in a tone of authority that the public doesn't need to know what's going on, but
that this program is in their best interests. He also stated that we should not tell anyone, nor ask any more questions about it. With that, the
briefing was over.

All documents in our office pertaining to Project Cloverleaf are kept in locked safes. Nobody is allowed to take these documents out of the office.
Very few employees are allowed access to these documents, and they remain tight-lipped about what the documents say.

Mr. Carnicom, I am no fool. I know there's something going on. And frankly, I am scared. I feel a high level of guilt that I have been aware of this
kind of operation but unable to tell anyone. It's been eating away at me, knowing that the company I work for may be poisoning the American people. I
hope this letter will open some eyes to what's happening.

Again, I wish I could give you documented information, but you have to understand why I must remain totally anonymous.

A report from a Canadian research foundation concluded that the much discussed, but little publicized Chemtrails, may be an attempt to hide a
sickening military secret.

Professor Donald Scott, president of the Common Cause Medical Research Foundation, claimed that Chemtrails are a belated attempt by U.S. military and
intelligence chieftains to stop the spread of a debilitating disease first concocted in the early 1980s.

According to Scott's account, the military began developing diseases in the 1970s which were infectious but not contagious. In other words, an
ailment which could be spread to enemy troops but would not pass into other populations.

One such disease was based on a zoonosis, a disease which can be transmitted to humans by animals, in this case brucellosis. Brucellosis is a
bacterial disease usually found in cattle, which can cause undulant fever in humans.

By manipulating this disease, researchers were able to design a disabling bacteria which disappeared following infection. Troops could be infected yet
exhibit no signs of the bacteria when examined by a doctor.

In the early 1980s, secret government labs worked to produce a brucellosis pathogen which could disable enemy troops without the risk of infecting
friendly forces. This pathogen reportedly was based on brucellosis bacteria in a crystalline form first developed by researchers in 1945.

According to Scott's report, such a bacteria was tested during the summer of 1984 at Tahoe-Truckee High School in California, where individual rooms
were fitted with an independent recycling air supply. A teacher's lounge was designated as the infection target. Seven of eight teachers assigned to
this room became very ill within months.

The high school was only one of several locations where the specially designed pathogens were tested, some distributed by aerosol sprays and others by
the use contaminated mosquitoes.

Scott reported that one hundred million mosquitoes a month were bred at the Dominion Parasite Laboratory in Belleville, Ontario, during the 1980s,
then tested by both Canadian and U.S. military authorities after being infected with brucellosis.

Some observers believe the viral epidemic reported around New York City in recent years may have been the result of these infected mosquitoes.

The testing of unsuspecting victims was conducted by both the military and CIA, according to Scott, and monitored by the National Institutes of Health
as well as the Center for Disease Control.

Encouraged by what they felt was a successful test, military leaders reportedly passed the brucellosis bio agent to none other than Saddam Hussein,
who in the mid-1980s was fighting a protracted war against Iran at the behest of the CIA.

In 1986, with the approval of Vice-President George Bush, Saddam received shipments of both brucella abortus, biotypes 3 and 9, and brucella
melitensis, biotypes 1 and 3.

After Saddam obtained a stockpile of the brucellosis, a terrible discovery was made - these designer bacteria mutated and became contagious.

According to Scott's report, Saddam used this pathogen on American troops during the Persian Gulf War in 1991, resulting in the illness referred to
as Gulf War Syndrome. More than 100,000 Gulf War vets now suffer from this syndrome, which causes chronic fatigue, loss of appetite, profuse sweating
even at rest, joint and muscle pain, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs.

Much of this information may be found in a 1994 report by Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., titled, "U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-related Dual
Use Exports to Iraq and Their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Persian Gulf War."

Troops initially were told that no such infection existed and that the problem was mostly in their mind. Slowly, over the years, authorities were
forced to admit that something had triggered severe illness in many Gulf War veterans.

By then, a variant of the brucellosis had spread to the civilian population. Many people began suffering from general debilitation and tiredness.

When it became know that the contagion was spreading into the general population, top officials with the National Institutes of Health and Center for
Disease Control, as well as the Defense Department and the Department of Health and Human Resources began a program of misrepresentation of the
disease to mask their role in its origin. The illness was claimed to be connected to the Epstein-Barr virus and was labeled "Chronic Mononucleosis."

This has now become known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Like the veterans before them, victims of this ailment were told it was merely a psychological
condition.

One victim, Dr. Martin Lerner of William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, MI, told his peers in the American Society of Microbiology that his bout with
this mysterious disease left his heart damaged. Dr. Lerner and others suspected that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by viral infection.

Top-level officials, concerned both with the spread of the contagion and with the risk that their role in its origin would become publicly known,
moved to counteract the pathogen. This program may explain the mysterious Chemtrails which have been noted over major population centers during the
past couple of years.

As explained by Scott, "We have learned . . . that a patent was issued in 1996 for an aerosol vaccination process which would permit the vaccination
of wildlife and domestic herds by spraying them or their disease vectors (birds) from the air. . . .

"We have noted that many of the sightings of Chemtrails are over migratory bird flight paths. We are currently preparing a report on this subject for
release in January 2001.

"The Chemtrails program may well be a belated effort by the U.S. and Canadian governments to get the brucellosis genie back in its bottle."

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