Shuriken toss damage is nowhere near that of a rogue in melee range. It simply doesn't compare at all to ambush+eviscerate spam. Sure if you count actual damage over time it's pretty good since with ST we have near 100% uptime on target. But it has no burst.

I actually used ST in PVE on Torto's. I certainly wouldn't suggest it as a viable route but our ranged were having trouble getting whirl turtles down so I switched to ST and was able to do more damage to the turtles than our hunter and was on par with our two other ranged. Staying on Tortos/Bats with anticipation I was doing 170K dps, switching to turtles with ST, 130K dps. It certainly isn't optimal to use, but I was somewhat impressed with how much damage it can do.

Well as some others already said, I'm not asking for nerfs or calling ST op, I'm just looking for the DPS number to know what I'm dealing with, though my experience already tells me that ST isn't something that I can neglect in fights against rogues. ST is interesting for my hunter and for my new rogue. I was surprised by my tests delivering 80% or even 90% of meele DPS, that's why I'm looking for confirmation or disproof of these numbers.

Well as some others already said, I'm not asking for nerfs or calling ST op, I'm just looking for the DPS number to know what I'm dealing with, though my experience already tells me that ST isn't something that I can neglect in fights against rogues. ST is interesting for my hunter and for my new rogue. I was surprised by my tests delivering 80% or even 90% of meele DPS, that's why I'm looking for confirmation or disproof of these numbers.

I see that opinions here differ on what ST is capable to deliver.

There's no burst with ST (can't even use SB with it), and the only utility you have from range is DT. In order to get a kill, the rogue still has to get in melee range at some point.

The damage is basically just auto attack, which happens to be the majority of our damage outside of cooldowns. It will do 80-90% of melee range damage without SD/SB and maybe 60-70% with them. However, SD/SB burst is very important for actually killing anything, as are stuns, kicks, gouges, disarms, etc., which all require melee range.

This differs from hunters, the only ranged physical DPS, because a large amount of hunter's overall damage is tied up in cooldowns. This is the opposite for rogues: most of our damage is in auto attacks and poisons (uptime), and cooldowns are a minor piece of the overall DPS pie. That's why it feels like we're doing a lot of damage with ST.

In short, ST damage is not immense (much less than melee range damage when considering cooldowns), but uptime is the majority of our damage, which ST provides.

Hopefully this makes sense... I don't know how else to explain it aside from graphs, which I'm too lazy to put together.

You can use SB 1st. Anyway it's a waste, because "autothrow" not gonna get SB benefits, only doube amount of CP's from ST itself.
Actually on this one Blizzard listened to players, during early PTR builds SB wasn't "grey'ed out" after getting ST buff.

You can use SB 1st. Anyway it's a waste, because "autothrow" not gonna get SB benefits, only doube amount of CP's from ST itself.
Actually on this one Blizzard listened to players, during early PTR builds SB wasn't "grey'ed out" after getting ST buff.

P.S. Nothing prevents you from using both SB and ST in melee range.

The post you're quoting explains in detail that SB is an option if the rogue is in melee range, but the comment you've quoted out of text qualifies the situation in which, for some reason, the rogue can't get to melee. Please make sure to get the entire context before refuting a point that's not being made.

So nerf the damage and then what? We're left with 1 somewhat crappy talent in PvP and a crappy one for PvP. The damage is fine on ST. The energy cost, however, is not and needs to be increased<Something I already suggested on the beta forums to hopefully prevent a nerf. It just doesn't make sense to have an ability so cheap do that much damage and give CPs.

Too many Rogues, myself included, just spam ST and don't even let it go for the full duration. Why? Because the first hit is good enough and generates CPs very fast for a fast-paced class. The energy cost needs to be like 35 because none of us are using it the way it should be; we're just abusing it. If it were 35 and not only 20 I would be much more hesitant to spam it up to 5 CPs as quickly as I could. Make it a skillful ability, and not a mindless spam when your target is out of range. This would also end the QQ from ranged classes not being able to cast when coupled with Deadly Throw... god forbid they have to L2fakecast against a Rogue when he's not in range.

Completely redo the Rogue talent tree, problem solved.

I think stacking debuff for the duration of ST would make it. Something like "increases cost of next ST by 50%".

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how about we rogues take away your gamechanging skills ? remove hunter reset skill,remove mages iceblock or his annoying freeze effekts,remove warriors mass stun mass fear and second wind ,remove bubble from paladins how would you like it ? just plz for the love of god stop whine for nerfs just learn to adapt rogues have been freekill untill 5.2 and you didnt care now that rogues are actually a worthy oponent everyone freaks out again how OP they are

the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

The post you're quoting explains in detail that SB is an option if the rogue is in melee range, but the comment you've quoted out of text qualifies the situation in which, for some reason, the rogue can't get to melee. Please make sure to get the entire context before refuting a point that's not being made.

Once again, original quote:

Originally Posted by Squirl

There's no burst with ST (can't even use SB with it)

My reply:

Originally Posted by Mazius

You can use SB 1st.

I can't see any explanation of that sort in original post. ST buff prevents you from using SB. Nothing (except common sense) prevents you from using SB and then ST from 10+ yds range.

Well as some others already said, I'm not asking for nerfs or calling ST op, I'm just looking for the DPS number to know what I'm dealing with, though my experience already tells me that ST isn't something that I can neglect in fights against rogues. ST is interesting for my hunter and for my new rogue. I was surprised by my tests delivering 80% or even 90% of meele DPS, that's why I'm looking for confirmation or disproof of these numbers.

I see that opinions here differ on what ST is capable to deliver.

did you think mayb you were losing to the ST rogues cuz they were pvp geared and knew what they were doing unlike non st rogues who are lets face it pve rogues cuz they dont know how good st is?

OP, when I did my own ST tests in PvP gear against a target dummy in Sub spec, I was doing between 75% and 80% of my melee-range damage as long as I was willing to run up to the dummy to refresh rupture before it dropped before running back to > 10yrd range.

As much as the question of how much DPS a rogue can do at range is interesting, this discussion has really fallen more into the question of nerfs and class-calls, repeatedly. While disappointing, I'm going to go ahead and close this, as dragging helpful information/ideas relies on weaving out of unrelated posts.