I agree that interrupting/target switching is not terribly difficult, but I think it is appropriate to describe it as a wall of sorts if people aren't progressing past the second boss. I'm not surprised that this is happening because this always happens on encounters of this design...remember what a nightmare Corla was unless you ran with your guild/a premade, and that was a just a dungeon encounter...

It is only a "wall" because blizzard intentionally made the first boss stupidly easy so everyone can get at least 1 boss. Unfortunately what happened is that people expect the whole instance to be on the same level as the handout... hopefully blizzard learned their lesson about making the first boss far easier than what follows...

Originally Posted by clevin

Wow, I can get 502 and 509 gear in normal T14? Oh wait NO I CAN'T. That's heroic T14 stuff and it's simply idiotic to argue that a raid should have to have heroic T14 gear, especially from later bosses, in order to progress on the second boss of NORMAL ToT. You're not worth replying to however... like many here, it's all about you and you're incapable of seeing things from other perspectives.

Maybe 509, but heroic MSV is easier than anything in normal ToT (besides Jin) after that nerf and with the 496 and random 522 pieces you should be in by now.

Originally Posted by Thylacine

I'm going to make maybe a couple of more posts and then leave this thread alone; it seems people can't look past their own experiences.

People on the Internet lie. Wowprogress said differently. In that first week, practically nobody with gear below item level 503 defeated Horridon on 10-man.

Yeah and you know what else people on the internet do? Make baseless claims. You are just assuming they lied because you want to think that. Did you check out all the people in that thread saying that? Doubt it. And you are the one who can't look past their own experiences. It isn't a gear check anyway. The ones clearing it are the ones who are actually working our their strat and adapting to mechanics. Our alt/social raid went in there with ~485-490 and did it because they know what they are doing. If you want more gear, there are ways to get over 500 without killing Horridron. Those 503 guilds you mention wouldn't have been able to kill it either if they played like the people stuck on it and did a piss poor job managing fairly simple mechanics (kick this, dispel that, don't stand there).

And this is why people like yourself aren't worth speaking to. Nobody (least of all me) is "whining"; simply sharing an opinion on why people have found Horridon so challenging. Comparing Onyxia is a deliberate straw man, because Onyxia is a single target that doesn't appear staggered when you're potentially trying to pick up other things.

Hmm we must have different definitions of whining. People coming to the forums saying how Horridron is overtuned when it is just their raid trying to ignore mechanics like they don't matter sounds like whining to me. Actually Ony 10/25m did have stuff that appeared and you could have to deal with those big adds and Ony at the same time. Doesn't matter though. A cleave is one of the most simple mechanics in all of WoW raiding and even some dungeons. Thats like saying an interruptable spell with a 10 second cast that 1 shots some one is overtuned. Sure the damage is high, but that is balanced with how easy it is to deal with.

You don't have "plenty of leeway" in 496-498 gear, which is what a normal mode raider would have first pulled the boss on. And like I said, people in that gear, weren't killing Horridon on the fist week. They just weren't.

You are full of crap. Lots of people in the 496-498 range killed him the first week. Hell, my guild was only at 500. Now maybe a majority weren't, but whatever. It was completely doable in that gear. You had ample leeway... how much leeway do you want? You can live through a 4 stack of poison, do you want a 10 stack to be survivable? At that point you might as well remove the poison entirely. Same thing with the other mechanics.

As for "picking up a mob and facing it away", you're being deliberately dismissive. You know, full well, it's not just picking up a mob and facing it away.

So tanks can blow cooldowns and not need any heals throughout the Gurubashi and Drakkari stages? Wow, I've yet to see that be the case.

Look; you can either accept that people have trouble with this fight, as they're trying to tell you, and that there ARE reasons for it. If you can't accept that, perhaps forums aren't the place for you.

It is that easy. Your tank doesn't really need to bother with the smaller stuff, just grab the bears. I also never said the tank wouldn't need any healing, but he shouldn't need to be the focus of your healers. Use your raid cd's and have your dps help out while healers dispel.

The adds on Ignis needed a 5k hit to shatter, this had nothing whatsoever to do with player skill; Riplimb and Rageface responded to accumulated damage, so the mechanics are totally different. If you're going to be so dismissive, at least try to be accurate.

What comp did you regularly run with where no one could do 5k? Lots of classes could, it just wasn't equally easy for all of them. Though I guess I did misunderstand riplimb and rageface... boss was so trivial even on heroic I didn't really care.

To you.

There are other players out there.

What do you mean to me? Its to everyone. If you take away mechanics where you switch off the boss to do trivial tasks, you end up with LFR or something even easier. If you expect to not do those things and succeed, they made a difficulty for that. If you reduce normal to the point where you can tunnel the boss and ignore everything else, what would you say is the point in having that separate from LFR?

Honestly theirs really nothing more that needs to be said. We'll see what participation rates look like and we'll see how long Blizzard keeps making content that caters to a minority that becomes fewer and fewer every day. I expect the last tier will be much easier. Or at least have a wider range of bosses in terms of difficulty and have a much better curve.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Honestly theirs really nothing more that needs to be said. We'll see what participation rates look like and we'll see how long Blizzard keeps making content that caters to a minority that becomes fewer and fewer every day. I expect the last tier will be much easier. Or at least have a wider range of bosses in terms of difficulty and have a much better curve.

I obviously have no idea how blizzard will do T16, but do you seriously think its a good idea for them to have massively dumbed down fights? If you simplify them, they all end up feeling the same. For example, yeah council in ToT has a bunch of mechanics going on that are important, but if it didn't, it would feel just like they recycled all the other council fights.

And again, the only real difference between normal and LFR is that normal has important mechanics that you need to handle. If you make those mechanics trivial like people are suggesting in this thread with horridron, why bother with 3 difficulties at all? They might as well just make LFR and heroic and do away with normal raiding like they did away with normal level 90 dungeons.

I obviously have no idea how blizzard will do T16, but do you seriously think its a good idea for them to have massively dumbed down fights? If you simplify them, they all end up feeling the same. For example, yeah council in ToT has a bunch of mechanics going on that are important, but if it didn't, it would feel just like they recycled all the other council fights.

And again, the only real difference between normal and LFR is that normal has important mechanics that you need to handle. If you make those mechanics trivial like people are suggesting in this thread with horridron, why bother with 3 difficulties at all? They might as well just make LFR and heroic and do away with normal raiding like they did away with normal level 90 dungeons.

Where did I say massively dumb down the fights? Honestly have you read anything I posted. If you keep making every fight a massive fucking wall after wall without any fucking curve then you will get the situation you describe. Not enough players to bother support making normal content. Might as well just make lfr and heroic. You and the developers have to understand that offering VARIETY in a raid (both in terms of accessibility and in terms of the path you can take in the raid) is what makes a raid GOOD. IT's not raw difficulty. It's not beating your fuckign head against a wall over and over again. IT'S PROGRESSION. Progression involves you having kill a few bosses before you hit the fuckign wall. Currently the wall is LITERALLY THE SECOND BOSS IN THE RAID.

No I don't want them to dumb everything down and your hyperbole is ridiculous. I want them to understand what medium difficulty is ffs. I want them to understand progression.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

ICC was no where near one of the best raids nor close at all to how good Ulduar was...

Edit: Some of the heroics did make ICC more compelling imo.

Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

It was not fun to read BOOOOOONNEEEESTOOOORRRMMM for 51 weeks in a row

I did it for almost a full year. I loved it. One of the best raids they ever made. So much for "nobody"

On the other hand "nobody" who's currently doing ToT will tell you its the best raid.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

I did it for almost a full year. I loved it. One of the best raids they ever made. So much for "nobody"

It's called a generalization for a reason. Most people dont like eating shit but I bet if you tried you could find someone who does...

Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

It's called a generalization for a reason. Most people dont like eating shit but I bet if you tried you could find someone who does...

OH? Thank you I was not aware. Please do tell me more oh wise seer.....

If theirs one thing this forum could use less of it's generalization. Especially since I keep being told how little this forum or any forum for that matter represents the actal wants and wishes and opinions of the player base.

Most people don't like doing ToT (because it's a pile of shit) but I bet if you tried you could find someone who does...

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

I only read the OP + 3 replies but why is there no support for this opinion? Is it truly that bad to let people progress through the instance how they please? If you can't clear the raid then there is a problem. But if one boss is acting like a wall, then why not let people skip that boss and come back if they please? I don't see how this hurts anyone. Stopping people from doing a whole raid and making them wait on nerfs is the stupid path of progression IMO.

OH? Thank you I was not aware. Please do tell me more oh wise seer.....

If theirs one thing this forum could use less of it's generalization. Especially since I keep being told how little this forum or any forum for that matter represents the actal wants and wishes and opinions of the player base.

Most people don't like doing ToT (because it's a pile of shit) but I bet if you tried you could find someone who does...

These forums could also benefit greatly from less sarcasm and illiterate posters. Generalizations are fuelled by public opinion, what else is there to go on?

Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

These forums could also benefit greatly from less sarcasm and illiterate posters. Generalizations are fuelled by public opinion, what else is there to go on?

No they aren't. Generalizations are fueled by ignorance. Don't mistake the two, although they do often ride together.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Stopping people from doing a whole raid and making them wait on nerfs is the stupid path of progression IMO.

Is this the ONLY way of going about it? To stop and wait? I recall hitting a monster road block with Vaelstrazz in BWL. There were no other options and we had to get our shit right to move on. We spent weeks on him! I cannot remember a more rewarding kill in my WoW career than Vael.

---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 11:08 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Glorious Leader

No they aren't. Generalizations are fueled by ignorance. Don't mistake the two, although they do often ride together.

Dumb people can generalize about anything, that doesn't make generalizations in their totality based on ignorance. ICC generally was not that well received... people loathed the gating for instance, they also disliked the ramping 30% buff..

Last edited by Eugenik; 2013-03-29 at 11:09 PM.

Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

I don't get what's happened to raiding over the last few years, a challenge used to be welcomed by the community and people would be upset that it wasn't challenging enough, these days people get upset that normal is harder than LFR and that they might actually have to understand how to adapt to mechanics / play their class / interrupt / switch targets and move. LFR was designed for people who don't want to have to bother so much with mechanics, if you want to do normals and progress people need to expect to have to do a bit more and then for heroics people must expect to have to be able to raid properly without error. That's the reason for the difficulties, if you can't raid at a certain level why should you expect the gear that the level brings? People will only cry if the bosses become Piñatas again like in DS, you should get what you put in like with any game, unfortunately the younger generation doesn't understand this and expect shinys for nothing.

Dumb people can generalize about anything, that doesn't make generalizations in their totality based on ignorance. ICC generally was not that well received... people loathed the gating for instance, they also disliked the ramping 30% buff..

I await the "evidence" or "proof" behind this statement. Otherwise it is itself proof positive that IGNORANCE has fueled yet another generalization.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

It was not fun to read BOOOOOONNEEEESTOOOORRRMMM for 51 weeks in a row

The raid itself, in my opinion, was fun. But like Dragon Soul, it was out for far too long. Disclaimer: DS sucked. I do not think it's a good instance. We'll see if Blizzard makes the same mistake with the final tier of MoP.

I await the "evidence" or "proof" behind this statement. Otherwise it is itself proof positive that IGNORANCE has fueled yet another generalization.

Lol really? Unless you or anyone else at that time took a poll, which you and no one else did, there is no proof beyond what people were saying at the time. Likewise you cannot support your generalization of everyone not liking ToT, nor, being a reasonable person, would I request such evidence knowing full well that there isn't any..

Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

Where did I say massively dumb down the fights? Honestly have you read anything I posted. If you keep making every fight a massive fucking wall after wall without any fucking curve then you will get the situation you describe. Not enough players to bother support making normal content. Might as well just make lfr and heroic. You and the developers have to understand that offering VARIETY in a raid (both in terms of accessibility and in terms of the path you can take in the raid) is what makes a raid GOOD. IT's not raw difficulty. It's not beating your fuckign head against a wall over and over again. IT'S PROGRESSION. Progression involves you having kill a few bosses before you hit the fuckign wall. Currently the wall is LITERALLY THE SECOND BOSS IN THE RAID.

No I don't want them to dumb everything down and your hyperbole is ridiculous. I want them to understand what medium difficulty is ffs. I want them to understand progression.

I never said you did say that. I was actually assuming you didn't want that, but if you do not want that, there has to be some lower bound that blizzard can't reduce it below regardless of participation because if there isn't, that is what will happen.

You do have variety and accessibility. What you have to understand is that ToT should not be looked at in a vacuum as if JinRokh is the starting point. Blizzard has clearly told everyone that is not the intention and that is why they are buffing old LFR drop rates and nerfed T14 significantly. This isn't wotlk or cata where they handed you catch up gear and expected people to skip to the newest raid.

The wall is only at the 2nd boss if you look at it in a vacuum. That is the 18th boss this expansion and if you have killed the first 17 on normal, you have the gear and the tools to kill Horridron after the nerf if you put some time and effort in.

Normal mode currently is that medium difficulty. What do you suppose they do exactly? You dumb down normal mode mechanics to where the simple things people are unable to handle don't matter (getting off the boss to interrupt something with a reasonable cast time) and you end up at LFR. There are no brutal throughput checks on normal. Normal also does not require some crazy strategy or creative use of mechanics. Normal isn't even asking for a flawless execution of those mechanics.

Well, this is a problem only for normal modes. after that you chose which boss you want to progress on.

That's not entirely true. With just 4 weeks of clearing normals, everyone needs at least some kind of normal mode gear. There are couple of cock block bosses that can take few attempts (read: half of raid night) even if you have killed them already - for example twins appear to be pain in the arse for us. If you want to progress, lets say, Horridon, you have to think well how much time you are going to devote to heroic progression to ensure you have enough time to clear rest of the place on normal to collect upgrades.
Last tier was pretty good for middle of the pack progression guild with 3 bosses open at any given time