BillWatson wrote:I still have not seen a valid reason (aside from cost, which would be significant) for not registering bikes.

You miss the point. Any form of registration that would be remotely feasible from a financial point of view for the government would be an unfair imposition. Fairness of any statutory imposition is a fundamental principle in our society. I'd very much like to hear your counter argument

BillWatson wrote:1. On a nice sunny day on a a shared bike path a mother and young child are walking along the left hand side of the path. 2 cyclists riding two abreast, and at speed , fly past and without sounding their bell. One of the riders hits the small child with his peddle causing very bad injuries. Then races on without stopping. Question, how is the mother to hold the cyclist to account for this?

I suspect that in that situation most decent people/cyclists will stop. There are always going to be jerks who think they are more important than others and won't stop. They are also the people who run into you with their shopping trolley without apologising and push you out of the way to be first in line. Your other example is similar. A small rego plate on a bike is also unlikely to be legible by the time you think to look to see what it is after the cyclist takes off.

The honest, and if necessary registered riders will not be responsible for these type of actions. How many police are going to stop an unregistered bicycle, how many stop unhelmetted riders now? The ratbags won't register their bikes in protest and will continue to be rat bags. The decent cyclist will be burdened with a registration task that costs more than it is worth.

I also hazard a guess that the cyclists that are posting video of poor motorist actions are also the type of rider that generally follow the rules, the two wheeled terrorists that run red lights and collide with children without stopping are a different breed and a testament to our increasingly selfish society.

bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

BillWatson wrote:2. During peak hour a driver moves a bit too close to a cyclist (without any malice). While this is to be considered dangerous, no harm was done. However, the cyclist is having a bad day and as he approaches her at the next lights he hurls abuse and kicks in her door and breaks off her mirror. He then races off ahead of the slow moving traffic. Once again how is this person able to hold the cyclist to account?

Hi Bill

Interesting discussion.

I think that there is an important aditional issue that is missed in this scenario that does contribute to the issues you want to "fix". That is that this scenario should read:

"During peak hour - the most dangerous time for cyclists_ a driver illegally moves a bit too close to a cyclist thereby endangering their live - for the 3rd or 4th or 5th time on this cyclists ride today alone (without malice - but sadly and not rarely with fatal or injurious consequences even if they didn't hit the cyclist - due to the poor state of road shoulders in most Australian cities ). The cyclist knows that it is pointless to attempt to bring this illegal and dangerous action to the attention of police because he has unsuccessfully sought redress from police for far more explicit acts of assault from motorist including having items thrown at him and threats of violence simply for riding. While this is to be considered dangerous no harm was done this time though on the law of probability it is only a matter of time before this cyclist is injured through this kind of ignorant and dangerous driving...."

None of the above amendments (true though they are) excuses the hypothetical behaviour of the cyclist. But it does point out that driver education (and cyclist education) may be a better place to spend govt money in order to reduce road rage rather than on bibycle registration which most governments have realised is not cost effective.

Bill those of us who ride do it because we love it in spite of the dangers. We know that statistically the benefit to our health is greater than the risk however none of us feels immune to death or injury due to the scenario that you present and we carry that risk every single day, all too often we watch the often serious (sometimes fatal) consequences on the news when another cyclist is killed or injured. Typically we don't tell our spouses about our near misses because they already would prefer that we didn't ride.

Who and what typically kills and injures cyclists: REGISTERED road users.

Education and tolerance and a community spirit is what is needed not bike rego.

Incident A: I was riding on a saturday, last may. While riding, a driver in a vehicle apparently decided that the fact I was riding on the road caused him great offence. Despite the fact that I was doing nothing wrong, he sped up the road, got out of his car, and assaulted me as I went past. By assaulted, I mean king hit. I provided the registration number of the vehicle, a witness and a description of the person. NO CHARGES HAVE BEEN LAID.

Incident B: Whilst riding through Lidcombe, NSW, a truck decided that he didnt have to concern himself with my life or safety. He used his vehicle 3 TIMES to try to hit me. I provided VIDEO FOOTAGE of the incident, the registration number of the vehicle, and at this point, NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE.

You say that a cyclist having a registration plate will fix these things. It wont. Until ALL PARTIES, motorists, pedestrians AND cyclists decide to start obeying the law, and start to consider each other, a registration plate wont change a thing.

Ask me about the police that decided, while I was riding in the bike lane, through Rhodes NSW, that they didn't have to walk the 20m to the lights. They just wandered out into the road, and I missed them by about a metre.

While our police don't want to start enforcing the law, and patience is not observed by any of the parties, nothing will change.

I believe the only way to change attitudes is to make motorists and pedestrians spend a month as a cyclist to see how the other half lives.

I ride to work several days per week. The volume of traffic offences that I see motor vehicles involved in would amaze you. Please bear in mind that I also don't think that cyclists are above the law either.

cheersGlenn

-----------"Pain is temporary. It may last a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a year, but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it lasts forever" Lance Armstrong

Incident A: I was riding on a saturday, last may. While riding, a driver in a vehicle apparently decided that the fact I was riding on the road caused him great offence. Despite the fact that I was doing nothing wrong, he sped up the road, got out of his car, and assaulted me as I went past. By assaulted, I mean king hit. I provided the registration number of the vehicle, a witness and a description of the person. NO CHARGES HAVE BEEN LAID.

Incident B: Whilst riding through Lidcombe, NSW, a truck decided that he didnt have to concern himself with my life or safety. He used his vehicle 3 TIMES to try to hit me. I provided VIDEO FOOTAGE of the incident, the registration number of the vehicle, and at this point, NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE.

You say that a cyclist having a registration plate will fix these things. It wont. Until ALL PARTIES, motorists, pedestrians AND cyclists decide to start obeying the law, and start to consider each other, a registration plate wont change a thing.

Ask me about the police that decided, while I was riding in the bike lane, through Rhodes NSW, that they didn't have to walk the 20m to the lights. They just wandered out into the road, and I missed them by about a metre.

While our police don't want to start enforcing the law, and patience is not observed by any of the parties, nothing will change.

I believe the only way to change attitudes is to make motorists and pedestrians spend a month as a cyclist to see how the other half lives.

I ride to work several days per week. The volume of traffic offences that I see motor vehicles involved in would amaze you. Please bear in mind that I also don't think that cyclists are above the law either.

cheersGlenn

Can you give us vehicle descriptions & part rego's for SCA please? If we post theres always a chance the next rider can fo more to avoid the vehicles in question or file follow-up reports.

BillWatson wrote:I still have not seen a valid reason (aside from cost, which would be significant) for not registering bikes.

And yet there have been several posted. If you ask a question, you have to be open to receiving answers you may not like. The validity or otherwise of said answers is subjective. They all seem perfectly valid to me.

My intention is to edit the video down to the incident. As soon as I post it on Youtube, I will pop up a link for the world to see!!

cheersGlenn

-----------"Pain is temporary. It may last a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a year, but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it lasts forever" Lance Armstrong

BillWatson wrote:I still have not seen a valid reason (aside from cost, which would be significant) for not registering bikes.

And yet there have been several posted. If you ask a question, you have to be open to receiving answers you may not like. The validity or otherwise of said answers is subjective. They all seem perfectly valid to me.

There are none as blind as those that do not see, none as deaf as those that do not listen.

Bill seems to be following a formula that has been displayed by other new posters on here - "I don't ride a bike but have observed....." New posters with a hidden agenda perhaps ??

motorist comes to mind recently. You don't happen to live in Apollo Bay, Bill?

The other day some appallingly incompetent jerk tried a 3 point turn up the driveway opposite,, fluffed it and clobbered my ute in the side.. Caving it in to the tune of a few thousand. And then bolted. We did get as far as ascertaining he belonged to the catholic church down the road (in all likelihood) Other than that we know s/he is incompetent and drives a white car.. and no one at the church feels like giving the ass up. How am I to get redress from him? Gotta hate organised religion and the values it teaches.

Suck it up princess... so many close overtakes happen every week that for a cyclist to bother to go after the car means it was bloody close. The kind of close thats probably your reason for not riding a bike. Shi$ scary brown trouser close. And yet that without malice close pass did not even let the driver get away...... gained nothing from it. Easy to prevent.. just become one of the averagely scary drivers and not the real homicidal losers. WHoever lost the mirror would have been centimetres away from putting someone in hospital for no advantage. And quite possibly would bolt and pretend they had not hit anyone.

I'd like to point out that a lot of motorists attempt to hide or alter their car registration plates so that they are either unreadable or obscured from photography by use of paints, and covers funnily enough to avoid what you are calling for Bill "Taking responsibility for ones actions". It may not seem that bad on the surface for motorists to do this in order to dodge paying a few fines here and there however it in its self encourages reckless behavior, because if you can run a red light or speed down a street and know that you will not be charged you would in fact be more likely to.

Alot of cyclists would most likely do the same thing, or more than likely not put the plates on in the first place and just say "Sorry Officer it must have been stolen while i was at work" how could a police officer argue with that sort of excuse it's logical.

BillWatson wrote:why should a cyclist not be able to be held accountable for any infringements or accidents they cause?

From my experience in handling motor vehicle insurance claims for my office, the number one rule for any accident is to not openly admit fault, this is something even our insurer will say. So how can someone be held accountable for there actions when the best course of action is to make sure every one is OK, say nothing, fill out paper work and leave it in the hands of your insurer to sort out.

The reason it's called an accident and not an "on-purpose" is because you did not intend for it to happen.

Thanks to the Media motorists thoughts on cyclists has become a real "Us vs. Them" argument of course most cyclists are also motorists so we see things in a different light.

BillWatson wrote: 1. On a nice sunny day on a a shared bike path a mother and young child are walking along the left hand side of the path. 2 cyclists riding two abreast, and at speed , fly past and without sounding their bell. One of the riders hits the small child with his peddle causing very bad injuries. Then races on without stopping. Question, how is the mother to hold the cyclist to account for this?

BillWatson wrote: If these incidents were to occur in a motor vehicle (which they do, and more often than with cyclists), then it may be possible to get the registration and let the police deal with them, however, at present it is impossible to hold a cyclist accountable, without either physically stopping them, or worse, chasing them though the streets.

Bill - the answer is, the govt is dealing with limited resources and cannot do everything hypothetically possible. a better approach is to focus on the measures with the "most bang for buck". now, the act of a cyclist seriously injuring a small child and riding off is disgusting, but in considering the need to take stronger action to protect against this scenario, the question must be asked: how big is the problem?

the answer is: very small. there was one pedestrian killed by a cycling on Beach Road, Melbourne a few years back. i'm sure there have been other, more minor incidents, but the risk posed by cyclists to public safety is particularly low.

the same question can be asked of motorists. the answer to this question is however, very different. motor vehicle cause a much higher rate of injury and death, in fact almost infinitely higher than cyclists.

in asking "what should we do to better prevent and hold road users accountable for causing injuries?" the logical answer is fairly clearly: take stronger measures against motorists. notably, the requirement for registration plates has seemingly done little to discourage irresponsible driving. other measures, such as stronger enforcement, have had more success and i share your concern for innocent victims of irresponsible road users. that's why the logical step is to take stronger action against motorists - not as we hate them or anything - it's just the measure that would be most effective.

Thanks for coming and asking questions in a respectful way.Like any forum/group, you will get a range of answers here – but don’t take any of it to heart if they are not ‘polite’ – some people can be like that (cyclist or otherwise).

I wanted to comment on a couple of things, for your consideration:

WHY NO REGISTRATION ?

Many of the arguments FOR registering bikes simply don’t stack up. We always hear the same arguments over and over:

a. usually that ‘registration’ pays for the road and you shouldn’t ride on the road unless you pay for it, b. you will be able to identify wrong-doers.c. Compulsory Insurance

Lets go through each of them, and the reasons why it wouldn’t work

PAYING FOR THE ROAD

Lets get it clear up front that registration DOES NOT PAY for the road – in NSW, the cost of registration for cars/motorcycles etc pretty much covers the cost of administering the registration system. From memory its only something like 7% of the cost of registering your car that actually makes it to ‘roads’ – Basically, 99.9% of the cost of roads comes from taxes and council rates. So car registration DOES NOT pay for the roads - roads are payed for by all taxpayers (whether you drive a truck, a car or only walk!).

COST PROHIBITIVE

The other point, as already mentioned above, is how would you determine how much to charge a cyclist? Cost of rego is determined by the bigger the vehicle, the more rego....so a hatch is less than a 4X4, and a ute is less than a truck... My current car is about $350 I think.... its a hatchback. So lets assume something like $50 or $100 for a bike (which seems reasonable). I think a motorcycle in NSW is about $200, so $50 works for me for the bike.

So at $50 (per adult cyclist per year - lets not include kids for example). Lets imagine that we spend $25 of that to make plates, so really only $25 goes towards the system itself The problem is that, if you look at your rego notice, you’ll note that it costs about $250 (depending on the State) to cover the administration of the system.

So that means that the government (ie taxpayer) will cover the cost of the other expenses?

Last year 1.3 million bicycles were sold in Australia, and 1.9 million ADULT Australians rode a bike at some stage – are you telling me that you would be happy (as a taxpayer) have to the government funding cycling registration – even though it would cost around $425 million EVERY YEAR (based on number of adult cyclists).

Even if the cost of registration is $100 – we are still requiring that the government chip in $140 million (JUST TO COVER THE COST OF ADMINISTRATION)

For that sort of cost, you are really wanting to see some type of GOOD benefits….

NUMBER PLATES AND IDENTIFYING WRONG DOERS

As pointed out above, this just doesn’t stack up.

Sure, you can write down a rego number, and phone the police all you want, but in reality, I would bet that you could not find THREE EXAMPLES in the last10 years where this has worked?

I would bet that its the same cyclists passing your street each day/week - so if the cops come around your could nab them tomorrow.... unlikely to happen though - phone the cops and see what happens...

If you look through the ‘stupid drivers’ thread on this forum (to balance it out we also have a ‘stupid cyclists thread’) you will see literally HUNDREDS of videos of people in cars, motorcycles and buses etc doing dangerous/illegal things.

So... we have people doing illegal things, even getting out of cars and punching people. These events are caught on VIDEO, with the registration plates make/model of the car clearly identifiable. its VERY rare that these end up with any type of police action. Maybe once a year??

Remember that this system will cost maybe $425 million per year JUST TO ADMINISTER....

The ‘identifying wrong doers’ argument doesn’t work – simply because we can already identify 90^% of people on the road, and it doesn’t stop accidents/idiots etc.

INSURANCE

The fact is that most ‘serious’ cyclists have insurance through one means or another. For example, members of Bicycle NSW are covered by insurance up to $20 mill, as with many cycling club memberships, the local triathlon club membership here is that same. Plus I am also covered by my household insurance and work insurance if I’m commuting….

Those that aren’t covered by insurance would generally be your weekend warriors, and of course kids.\

So in summary, cycling rego means lots of cost, and no benefits – and that’s the reason why its never happened, and most likely never will.

I have SOOOO many people who seek me out with an argument about the shortcomings of riders. In many/most cases they assume that I will take a set position that they expect of all riders. Not so (though sometimes I would put the person approaching me into the equivalent category onthe other side of the fence). Not all cyclists sing from the same song sheet.

Mulger Bill pretty well gave the basics re rego. The rego thing is a great big irrelevant furphy and no state goverment treasurer is interested in it.

About riders. I will not insult your intelligence by trotting out "small minority" prefix - there are many riders who act selfishly and self righteously and are just as guilty as some motorists when we make bad-faith self-serving arguments to justify our actions. On this forum we do try amongst ourselves to keep each other at least intellectualy honest in what we say. But out on the paths and roads, we have about as much effect as anyone else does in getting errant cyclists to modify their behaviour. Which is to say "very little effect".

Perhaps one day we can see you enjoying some of the benefits of riding btw.

There is at least one northern europan country (Sweden?) that has a scheme whereby the cyclist buys a sticker from their local bike shop at nominal cost (EUR5-15 or thereabouts) and applies it to their bike. They are then covered for any claims against them for injury, just like our Third Party cover for motor vehicles.

Registration and the display of a number is not an intrinsic prerequisite for cyclists to have insurance cover.

Some time ago a few of us here decided to make up "mock" registration plates and attach them to our bikes. I looked at various designs and sizes and as it turns out, the biggest size I could fit to the bike was way too small for anyone to read unless they were standing rather close.In the event of an accident, I would say that the registration number would not be readable, because by the time the person reacted and realised they needed to get the number, the culprit would be too far away.

As for there being no way for a cyclist to be held accountable... The police manage to catch thieves etc with out the need for them to wear a rego plate, the point is if the police really want to put in the effort, they will catch you, regardless.

People riding two abreast on psp's really get up my nose and maybe the police need to start looking at patrols and target those who abuse the laws, cyclist or walker.

GraemeL wrote: ...police need to start looking at patrols and target those who abuse the laws, cyclist or walker.

Graeme

But there is no Revenue to raise off these culprits that would amount to anything significant. Heck i myself was pulled over by some police officers while driving for being on my phone (Bad i know) however instead of getting fined something around $250 and 3 demerit points(which would teach me some lesson, as $250 would be that new work stand i want to buy) i got a slap on the wrist "don't do it again, ... Oh and your bike rack is obscuring your license plate you should take that off."

Hi All, Thank You for your comments, However as yet no one has formulated an effective argument against registration. No one has discussed the hypotheticals I proposed in any meaningful manner, the question connected was how were the people supposed to hold the offender to account, and no one has attempted to discuss that, so I can assume that these are situations, should they occur, that would have befitted from registration.As for the size of the plate, if an old bloke like me can read the brand on a moving bike, and the names on a riders jersey from my window, (I can even read the rego on a fast moving motorbike) then one may assume that a plate could be seen.

Now to KenGS, I have fronted the Magistrates court twice in relation to reporting dangerous drivers to the Police (both time I had video evidence).

From what I can see in this thread, and others in this forum is that cyclist, at least in this community, want to be able to hold motorists and pedestrians to account for their offences, but do not want others to have the same right regarding the cyclist. There appears to be a distinct double standard regarding obeying the road rules, cyclists (and I will use this term as a very general label and in no way infer that all, or even most are like this) want to be able to pick and choose what rules they follow, (i.e, the comments of Human909 on the “Ninja Day” thread, or by the signature of Mulger bill, who quotes ..”whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.London Boy 29/12/2011”. The comments of il padrone in this thread and others (and I take some dramatic licence here) believe that drivers and pedestrians should be taken to task for offences against cyclist, but when it is the cyclist at fault, then it is case of sh*t happens. Does this mean that motorcyclist can follow the same guidelines? How about small cars? Can a young person on a small scooter uses the cycle way as it is in their best interest, this is illegal but in the interest of self preservation why not according to some? Ridiculous but I hope you see my point (however if someone was to do this, you could record their plate and report them to police).

As I said earlier, no one has yet to form an effective augment against registration (cost is significant, but not the sole reason to dismiss it). It is just my belief, but if the cycling community wants to be regarded as an equal on the roads (as they should be) then they need to have the same responsibilities as all other road users. This includes following the road rules as any other vehicle should, and being able to be held accountable if they cause offence. Perception is a powerful thing, and the way the wider community sees you can make all the difference. Lets face it, road cyclist are looked upon very negatively by many other road users, but why do you think this is?The actions of a the few unfortunately reflect back on the many, (this is taken to the extreme when you look at community attitudes toward the Islamic Faith, and before you jump on me I only say this to high light how the actions of a few can harm the many and has nothing tho do with any form of registration). So if having a bike registration system changes that negative attitude, or re-enforcers the idea in the wider community that cyclists have the same rights as motorists, them why is this a bad thing?

So lets widen the parameters and keep it simple and avoid all the details….

Assuming a workable method of registration could be found (let’s assume to everyone’s approval), does this community support, IN PRINCIPLE, the registration of bicycles?

Please if you chose to answer can you provide you reasons? Do not quote a long string of facts or rhetoric other scenarios. Stay on topic and focused, i.e. if you do not support cycle registration because you wish to get way with traffic offences, then please be honest and just say so. But if someone can propose a well structured augment against registration (remember we have removed cost as a variable here) it would be great.