I'm being realistic. There's a difference. I like DeRozan, but at this point in his development, I think he'd be lucky to become an All-Star. Davis, I think, is the type of player that usually ends up with a Championship by the end of his career, but he's never going to be a top player in the league. And Bargnani, well, I think you know my opinion of Bargnani. I also like Amir and see him as being a good rotation player on a Championship team. That's 3 good pieces, but the Raptors roster is a ways off from having the enough to start thinking about contending. The first and possibly even second best player on a potential Raptor contender are still missing from the team. With Dirk, Dallas is a mediocre team, at best. And right now the Raptors have no one who can become even close to the player Dirk is.

Like I said, I like to be as optimistic as possible, maybe to the point where I'm delusional. I really do think Demar has the potential to be the best shooting guard in the league after Kobe is retired, maybe I'm crazy but if he adds the three and defense to his current game I don't think it's rediculous. Next season will be big for him as I think he is going to be our #1 option, so we'll see if he puts it together. I agree about Ed, he does seem like the kind of guy that sort of puts you over the top, but he is still one of those players who is a starter on a champion. Eveyone else on the team is probably not really champion material but I think it's a little early to make a decision about players like Bayless and James Johnson who may still be able to get to the next level. We are one great player away from being a contender in my opinion, one elite center or point guard and we'll be there in a few years.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Like I said, I like to be as optimistic as possible, maybe to the point where I'm delusional. I really do think Demar has the potential to be the best shooting guard in the league after Kobe is retired, maybe I'm crazy but if he adds the three and defense to his current game I don't think it's rediculous. Next season will be big for him as I think he is going to be our #1 option, so we'll see if he puts it together. I agree about Ed, he does seem like the kind of guy that sort of puts you over the top, but he is still one of those players who is a starter on a champion. Eveyone else on the team is probably not really champion material but I think it's a little early to make a decision about players like Bayless and James Johnson who may still be able to get to the next level. We are one great player away from being a contender in my opinion, one elite center or point guard and we'll be there in a few years.

DeRozan might end up becoming the best SG in the league, but I'd say that would be more due to a dearth of really good SGs than due to DeRozan's dominance. I do think that statements like, "he just needs to add _______ and _______ to become great" are sometimes a little frustrating. The retort I usually give to that is that if I was 6 inches taller, more athletic and more skilled, I could have been in the NBA. It's obviously an exaggeration to make a point, but you understand, hopefully. DeRozan might one day become a decent defender, but after 2 years in the league, I think it's safe to say he'll never become a great defender. We would have seen more by now, if that was the case. I think DeRozan might one day be on a similar level as Iguodala, which is very good. A better scorer, but not as good at the other things. A borderline All-Star who ideally is the third best player on a team.

As for what the Raptors are lacking, I think they are one elite player away from being a playoff team. I think they are 1 elite player and an All-Star away from being a contender. And getting that elite player is the tricky part, isn't it? In the 16 year history of the franchise, they're gotten 2, and even that's debatable. And we know it's probably not going to happen in this draft, so we really need to hope they get a high pick next year.

Maybe he will be a Tyson Chandler type of player but i think most people don't understand that TC's character and leadership were his most important qualities for the mavs. What he brought goes beyond vertical leap, height with or without shoes and altered shots. He was the KG for the Mavs. If ED can get there? No one can tell.

DeRozan might end up becoming the best SG in the league, but I'd say that would be more due to a dearth of really good SGs than due to DeRozan's dominance. I do think that statements like, "he just needs to add _______ and _______ to become great" are sometimes a little frustrating. The retort I usually give to that is that if I was 6 inches taller, more athletic and more skilled, I could have been in the NBA. It's obviously an exaggeration to make a point, but you understand, hopefully. DeRozan might one day become a decent defender, but after 2 years in the league, I think it's safe to say he'll never become a great defender. We would have seen more by now, if that was the case. I think DeRozan might one day be on a similar level as Iguodala, which is very good. A better scorer, but not as good at the other things. A borderline All-Star who ideally is the third best player on a team.

As for what the Raptors are lacking, I think they are one elite player away from being a playoff team. I think they are 1 elite player and an All-Star away from being a contender. And getting that elite player is the tricky part, isn't it? In the 16 year history of the franchise, they're gotten 2, and even that's debatable. And we know it's probably not going to happen in this draft, so we really need to hope they get a high pick next year.

As far as DD's defence is concerned it is very rare that a 2 guard comes into the league able to play defense at a high level, they are simply not strong enough and don't have the experience, so I think he has a chance to become a very good defender a few years down the road. I like the Iguodala comparison and I guess I am sort of envisionning DD as a bigger, much better scoring version of Igi in the long run.
I think we are one really great player away from contending but I tend to think that that player is more of a hustle type player like a Joakhim Noah than it is an elite offensive player like a Lebron James. I think Derozen can be the best scorer on a champion but we need the elite D on the inside to have a chance.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

As far as DD's defence is concerned it is very rare that a 2 guard comes into the league able to play defense at a high level, they are simply not strong enough and don't have the experience, so I think he has a chance to become a very good defender a few years down the road. I like the Iguodala comparison and I guess I am sort of envisionning DD as a bigger, much better scoring version of Igi in the long run.
I think we are one really great player away from contending but I tend to think that that player is more of a hustle type player like a Joakhim Noah than it is an elite offensive player like a Lebron James. I think Derozen can be the best scorer on a champion but we need the elite D on the inside to have a chance.

You need more than one scorer if you are going to win, even Jordan had Pippen to drop 20 plus a night. Look at the Mavs with Dirk and Terry, Boston had the big 3, the Lakers had Odom, Kobe, and Gasol, San Antonio with Parker, Manu and Duncan. Also it helps if your best scorer makes it easier for his teammates to score, and DeMar is not there yet, if he adds a little more drive draw and dish to his game it would help big time.

You need more than one scorer if you are going to win, even Jordan had Pippen to drop 20 plus a night. Look at the Mavs with Dirk and Terry, Boston had the big 3, the Lakers had Odom, Kobe, and Gasol, San Antonio with Parker, Manu and Duncan. Also it helps if your best scorer makes it easier for his teammates to score, and DeMar is not there yet, if he adds a little more drive draw and dish to his game it would help big time.

Agreed it's tough to win with one great scorer even if surrounded by a great defensive team (AI and the Sixers losing to the Lakers). A lot of is mentioned about Demars defense but I like your point about developing his play making skills. To truly become an ELITE scorer he'll need to be able to facilitate more to keep the defense honest. He's developing nicely but the 5 things I'd like to see him work on would be his handle, play making skills, rebounding, keeping his man in front of him and being able to hit the open 3. A lot to ask but the kid has a great work ethic so who's to say he can't at this point.

Ed Davis *could* be TO's Tyson Chandler, but he's more likely to be TO's Al Horford. And that's pretty damn good. That's your 3rd star on a contending team. Chandler was lucky to end up in the situation/system he did, and he exceeded any expectations anyone had of him, based on his prior performance in the league. Hell, he wasn't even the clear-cut starter when he arrived in Dallas.

I'm with Tim on this: With DD and Davis (and Amir to a lesser degree), TO has 2 key pieces to a contending team, but not the KEY piece. I do think both DD and Ed will continue to grow, but I honestly don't see Derozan becoming an elite player of the level that wins you championships. As Tim notes, usually those signs are evident after 2 years in the league, and while he's shown promise on the offensive end, he has a long way to go on the defensive end, and it's absolutely critical that he gets a reliable 3-pt shot or he'll barely be a starting calibre SG.

Davis, on the other hand, seems to offer a little more upside, given his already-high defensive IQ combined with the athletic ability to put that IQ to good use. I'm not concerned about his offense at this stage, as he showed a lot of improvement last year, and PT and confidence in his role on the team will let him grow even more in that area this year. I think he *could* be as good as Bosh one day, but that's still not the kind of player that carries a team to a championship.

There is no *elite* talent on this team yet. Unfortunately, I don't see that kind of player at the top of this draft, either. There might be someone in the 10-25 range who turns into an elite player given the right situation (Burks, Brooks, etc.), like DWade did, but of the top 10 guys right now, I don't see it.

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

As far as DD's defence is concerned it is very rare that a 2 guard comes into the league able to play defense at a high level, they are simply not strong enough and don't have the experience, so I think he has a chance to become a very good defender a few years down the road. I like the Iguodala comparison and I guess I am sort of envisionning DD as a bigger, much better scoring version of Igi in the long run.
I think we are one really great player away from contending but I tend to think that that player is more of a hustle type player like a Joakhim Noah than it is an elite offensive player like a Lebron James. I think Derozen can be the best scorer on a champion but we need the elite D on the inside to have a chance.

It's rare for 2 guards to come into the league and be able to play defense at a high level, but if they aren't playing at even an average level by the end of their second season, it's a good bet they're not going to ever be a great defensive player. Look at Iguodala, who was actually a good defender when he came into the league. Even Vince and McGrady were better defenders at the same point in their careers.

And while I think DeRozan has the makings of a very good scorer, if he's your best player, you aren't going to be anything more than mediocre. And usually your best scorer is your best player. DeRozan has never shown the ability to make his teammates better. He's never shown the ability to be a franchise player, which is what you are basically saying.

As for what the Raptors need, you really think a guy like Joakim Noah is going to turn a 22 win team into a contender? We're WAY off from one another on this one. Way off. The Raptors lack elite talent, and however much I like Noah, he's not elite talent. The Raptors have none. None. What they have is a few players with decent talent who look like they'll become good rotation players or starters on contender, and a couple of players who might one day become decent players, but that's it.

I just think you're overestimating your own team's players, which is a common thing for fans to do. I tend to look at players and team's objectively, but don't say I'm a pessimist for doing so.

It's rare for 2 guards to come into the league and be able to play defense at a high level, but if they aren't playing at even an average level by the end of their second season, it's a good bet they're not going to ever be a great defensive player. Look at Iguodala, who was actually a good defender when he came into the league. Even Vince and McGrady were better defenders at the same point in their careers.

And while I think DeRozan has the makings of a very good scorer, if he's your best player, you aren't going to be anything more than mediocre. And usually your best scorer is your best player. DeRozan has never shown the ability to make his teammates better. He's never shown the ability to be a franchise player, which is what you are basically saying.

As for what the Raptors need, you really think a guy like Joakim Noah is going to turn a 22 win team into a contender? We're WAY off from one another on this one. Way off. The Raptors lack elite talent, and however much I like Noah, he's not elite talent. The Raptors have none. None. What they have is a few players with decent talent who look like they'll become good rotation players or starters on contender, and a couple of players who might one day become decent players, but that's it.

I just think you're overestimating your own team's players, which is a common thing for fans to do. I tend to look at players and team's objectively, but don't say I'm a pessimist for doing so.

i think you're under estimating your own teams players. If DeMar or Ed end up being an Elite player then your the first person i will laugh at.

i think you're under estimating your own teams players. If DeMar or Ed end up being an Elite player then your the first person i will laugh at.

I think all fans would be happy if either of those guys becomes "elite", Tim included. There's nothing wrong with a little perspective, though, and based on what we've seen so far from both of them, it doesn't appear likely that DD and Davis are headed for Kobe/Dirk/Duncan/etc. territory.

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

i think you're under estimating your own teams players. If DeMar or Ed end up being an Elite player then your the first person i will laugh at.

Very few players come into the league and become elite players after average to above average starts. Maybe my thoughts on what an elite player is is different than yours. To me to be elite you need to be top 10 overall, elite is the best of the best, not just an allstar. Sure Kobe took a few years after coming straight form high school, but he put up very good numbers in his second year in far less minutes that Demar was given in year two. Both DeMar and Ed have bright futures, but I don't see an elite player in either one.

i think you're under estimating your own teams players. If DeMar or Ed end up being an Elite player then your the first person i will laugh at.

Why would you laugh at me? I'd absolutely LOVE it if they become elite players, it's just not very likely, and I don't think you'd find a respected basketball person who would disagree with that. I think they'll certainly become good players and possibly even All-Stars, but what makes you think they'll become 2 of the best players in the entire league? DeRozan certainly has very good scoring ability, but at this point, he's probably below average in defense, passing, rebounding and ball handling. Davis has the potential to be an elite defender and rebounder, for sure, but his offense is pretty limited. I don't see him ever becoming a 20 ppg scorer, and unless that happens, I don't think he's going to become a top 10 player in the league.

Very few players come into the league and become elite players after average to above average starts. Maybe my thoughts on what an elite player is is different than yours. To me to be elite you need to be top 10 overall, elite is the best of the best, not just an allstar. Sure Kobe took a few years after coming straight form high school, but he put up very good numbers in his second year in far less minutes that Demar was given in year two. Both DeMar and Ed have bright futures, but I don't see an elite player in either one.

i can see DeMar come back one year and just dominated the floor. I think it can happen at any time he doesn't have to do it in his first or second year. Don't take my comment wrong, i don't mean you could be in the league for 10 years and then end up being an all star. Weems said that DeMar wants to be one of the "kobe's, lebrons or D wades" in this league and i think if he truly wants to be one of the greats then he will try his hardest to achieve that. Right now we can just hope and pray that he has a break out season next year.

I've yet to see DeMar take over a game. I'd say that the frequency of DeMar "disappearing" at times during the season are about the same as the times Kobe and Wade took over games early on in their respective careers. I'm not even talking about consistent scoring, or ability to create shots, or drawing contact and getting to the line. I'm not even talking about defense, or getting teammates involved or making teammates better. Forget about all that for now. Has DeMar even shown the ability to take over a game? Until he does that, I don't think we need to even bother with this debate.

I've yet to see DeMar take over a game. I'd say that the frequency of DeMar "disappearing" at times during the season are about the same as the times Kobe and Wade took over games early on in their respective careers. I'm not even talking about consistent scoring, or ability to create shots, or drawing contact and getting to the line. I'm not even talking about defense, or getting teammates involved or making teammates better. Forget about all that for now. Has DeMar even shown the ability to take over a game? Until he does that, I don't think we need to even bother with this debate.

You are right. Debating DeMar to Kobe or Wade is pointless at this point in time - most likely in the future too.

But, in the defense of those who feel it is a valid comparison, remember Kobe didn't start until his third year and Wade had two years in college and a solid but unspectacular rookie season at 22 years of age.

I've yet to see DeMar take over a game. I'd say that the frequency of DeMar "disappearing" at times during the season are about the same as the times Kobe and Wade took over games early on in their respective careers. I'm not even talking about consistent scoring, or ability to create shots, or drawing contact and getting to the line. I'm not even talking about defense, or getting teammates involved or making teammates better. Forget about all that for now. Has DeMar even shown the ability to take over a game? Until he does that, I don't think we need to even bother with this debate.

You are right. Debating DeMar to Kobe or Wade is pointless at this point in time - most likely in the future too.

But, in the defense of those who feel it is a valid comparison, remember Kobe didn't start until his third year and Wade had two years in college and a solid but unspectacular rookie season at 22 years of age.

It's rare for 2 guards to come into the league and be able to play defense at a high level, but if they aren't playing at even an average level by the end of their second season, it's a good bet they're not going to ever be a great defensive player. Look at Iguodala, who was actually a good defender when he came into the league. Even Vince and McGrady were better defenders at the same point in their careers.

And while I think DeRozan has the makings of a very good scorer, if he's your best player, you aren't going to be anything more than mediocre. And usually your best scorer is your best player. DeRozan has never shown the ability to make his teammates better. He's never shown the ability to be a franchise player, which is what you are basically saying.

As for what the Raptors need, you really think a guy like Joakim Noah is going to turn a 22 win team into a contender? We're WAY off from one another on this one. Way off. The Raptors lack elite talent, and however much I like Noah, he's not elite talent. The Raptors have none. None. What they have is a few players with decent talent who look like they'll become good rotation players or starters on contender, and a couple of players who might one day become decent players, but that's it.

I just think you're overestimating your own team's players, which is a common thing for fans to do. I tend to look at players and team's objectively, but don't say I'm a pessimist for doing so.

Let's agree to disagree about Demar's ceiling. I think he has franchise or at least Joe Johnson level potential. One thing to keep in mind about Vince is that he was Demars age in his rookie year and so was a lot stronger in his second year. I will say you may be right since you seem to be right thus far about Bargs and I was way off there.
I also do think if you put Noah on this team now in place of Bargs we would make the playoffs. Contender may have been an exaggeration but, while Rose is the team over there, I don't think they finish in the top three without Noah.
I probably am overestimating my players, I do it in every sport I watch. Sometimes it works out though, my Packers went 6-10 in 2008 with Rogers and they just won it all so I like to think being really optimistic pays dividends.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

Let's agree to disagree about Demar's ceiling. I think he has franchise or at least Joe Johnson level potential. One thing to keep in mind about Vince is that he was Demars age in his rookie year and so was a lot stronger in his second year. I will say you may be right since you seem to be right thus far about Bargs and I was way off there.
I also do think if you put Noah on this team now in place of Bargs we would make the playoffs. Contender may have been an exaggeration but, while Rose is the team over there, I don't think they finish in the top three without Noah.
I probably am overestimating my players, I do it in every sport I watch. Sometimes it works out though, my Packers went 6-10 in 2008 with Rogers and they just won it all so I like to think being really optimistic pays dividends.

I'm a big fan of Noah, but he missed nearly half the season and the Bulls did fine without him. They're probably not a top 3 team, but you take away one of the top three players on ANY team and they suffer. I don't see the Raptors getting 17 more wins just because of Noah. He's good, but he's not that good.

I'm a big fan of Noah, but he missed nearly half the season and the Bulls did fine without him. They're probably not a top 3 team, but you take away one of the top three players on ANY team and they suffer. I don't see the Raptors getting 17 more wins just because of Noah. He's good, but he's not that good.

I think you are right that Noah would not make that big of a difference on most teams, but on the Raps he would be a game changer. You take out a notoriously bad defender and rebounder who does no dirty work in Bargs and put in Noah and I think you completely change this franchise. The difference he could make in terms of the mental influence he would bring can`t be overlooked. This coming season if we had Casey as our coach and started Jose, Demar, JJ, Ed Davis, and Noah with Amir, Evans, Julian Wright and Barbosa coming off the bench I think we make the playoffs.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."