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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Here's what CBS says about Thomas..

Read & React: Recognizes what's coming quickly and has the speed to get to the spot to make a play. As a safety, he was a bit overaggressive, biting on play-action and underneath routes which leaves cornerbacks on an island.

Man Coverage: Needs technique work before making the move to cornerback. Backpedal is high and slow, and lags in recovery on double moves and catching up to receivers running quick outs or square-ins. Has the speed to turn and run with receivers.

Zone Coverage: Attacks throws in front of him and has good range as a safety. Can make the interception or a big hit to separate the man from the ball. Makes quarterbacks pay for late throws over the middle, baiting them into making poor decisions. Excellent hand-eye coordination.

Closing/Recovery: Very good burst and closing speed to the ball. Wins most battles for the ball in the air. Slow to plant and drive in coverage but can close when the play is in front of him. Recovers from false steps to get back to receivers.

Run Support: Willing to support the run. Flies into the action at full speed, pounding backs in the open field. Will overpursue and fail to break down, missing tackles. Will struggle to get off receiver or lineman blocks.
Tackling: Inconsistent as a tackler in space despite good statistics. Larger receivers and tough running backs run through his tackles in space. Ends up riding big receivers for a few yards before bringing them down. A special teams force in college and will be used there in the pros.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Originally Posted by Chadman

Funny...Chadman thinks the opposite. Here's the thing- the combine has a few tests that actually are worth considering when looking at DB's, particularly CB's. You mention that Murphy is stiff hipped, that he has trouble coming out of his backpeddle. Yet, the two tests designed to expose his lateral quickness (shuttle drills) & his change of direction ability (cone drills) are the two drills that Murphy exceeded in- he was awesome in both. What he lacks is pure foot speed, only running the 40 in 4.5, where Thomas ran a 4.43. Strangely (and concerningly), Thomas has no times posted on either the shuttle or cone drills- did he not run them? If so, why not?

Funny thing about watching game tape to combine drills- and this one works in reverse to everything Chadman believes in when it comes to assessing college players- is that game tape can be decieving. You have to factor in the strength of the players around Thomas, and their ability to allow Thomas to go for the big play. Sure- he had a wonderful career in college. But there is little evidence outside of a few nice articles written about him that prove any real ability to play CB at a high level. After all, it is generally accepted that CB's are 'better' athletes than Safeties- more agile, explosive, quicker. That is why many people believe 'slower' CB's can transition to FS easily- they are superior athletes that can move to a position that limits any liability they may have. It's VERY RARE that a FS in college moves to CB- it's taking a guy that wasn't considered a good enough 'island defender' to play CB at college & then deciding he's good enough to do it in the pro's. Not only that- but if chosen at #18, it would mean he's considered better than all but 1 actual college CB for the pro's. And this is a good year for CB's too. Don't get Chadman wrong- he believes Thomas is a special talent. But he's the 2nd best FS in the draft. Not the 2nd best CB. If it's a CB you are after at #18, you take Wilson from Boise St.

I don't want to knock Murphy because if the Steelers are still looking for a CB in the 3rd....I would take him. I like him, he would fit in the Steelers system. Murphy had a nice 20 shuttle, 2nd in CB, but his cone time was not even in the Top 10. I take it you didn't watch the combine position drills. These are the drills that simulate game situations and not times drills. Murphy wasn't bad but...He was a little stiff, high in his back pedal, and not one of the better change of direction guys. I belive he also put his hand down at least once changing direction while loosig speed.

Thomas's skill set shows up in film as well. Regardless of the talent around him, he still has to react to the play in the game. He could be the "rare" player you mentioned because of his skils and athletic ability.Thomas was the best player in the secondary at Texas, and according to his coach, played S to take full advantage of all his talents. Playing centerfield allowed him to run sideline to sidleine without his back to the QB. In college, it is not uncommon to have a player in this position if he is a good tackler & run supporter, which Thomas is. Thomas is actually the best FS on many peoples boards including Mayock. Berry wasn't the best safety in the positions drills. Thomas is also rated as the #2 CB on many peoples boards.

There were discussions in the combine coverage how the prototype S like Berry needs to evolve in the new pass happy NFL. The S need to support the run but cover like a CB. Thomas has shown CB ability and fits this mold. SO even if the transition doesn't work...You have the S you are looking for. But thomas has shown an exceptional nose for the ball in college and combined with his S abilities....Could make him one of the most complete CBs the Steelers have seen since Rod Woodson. A better comparison might be when Lake moved to CB because of injury. Thomas is more athletic but the same nose for the ball. Many people will argue that Thomas is the best DB in this draft. One more year in college...There might not have been an argument.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Originally Posted by Chadman

It's the same thing with guys like Iupati- he's the #1 OG, and as an OG, worthy of a Round 1 grade, and worthy of being the first OG drafted. But if you viewed him as an OT, a position he doesn't play- a physically more demanding position- then you don't take him as the #2 OT on the draft board. In fact, if he was to be viewed simply as an OT, he probably drops to mid 2nd round.

Iupati was abused at the Senior Bowl in pass protection. He has lazy feet right now because he dominated aginst lesser competition. Could be coachable bu there are concerns about his intelligence. However, he is athletic, has the build and frame of an OT with room to grow, Long Arms, and tremendous "upside". That is the only reason he is being considered 1st round talent. There are better "pure Gs" in this draft but Iupati might be able to improve and/or change postion.

Taylor Mays is almost a LB size. But if he was viewed as simply a LB, after playing Safety his whole career, you most likely drop him behind Weatherspoon, most likely a couple below that even. He has no body of work to say he is a LB.

Taylor Mays would never make it as a LB. There is no way he can play on the LOS and he would be consumed by blockers. Mays could be a liabilty at S in coverage and that is why the whole LB tag came out.

Best example might be TJ Ward though. He was considered the 3rd best CB on his team, so they shift him to FS, the position that can hide his lack of genuine foot speed & change of direction, in order to get the best 4 DB's on the field. They didn't shift a FS to CB.

Ward went to S because of his abilty to support the run. His skill set allowed it. There isn't a formula like you are trying to indicate.

OT's can play OG, because it's less physically demanding. CB's can play FS, because it's less physically demanding. OG's don't get moved to OT very often. FS's don't get shifted to CB.

OT get moved to G because they can't protect the edge. It could be from poor feet, short arms, bad hand placement, etc. Physicality has nothing to do with it. G actually have to be more physical to be stout. They have to hold up the front bubble of the pocket in pass protection and obtain leverage and not lose ground in run so the pulling lineman can get to the hole.

Again, what is with your imaginary formula? It is about the skill set. Not all CBs can play S. It is a unique position. I'm sure Cromartie would be a Pro Bowl S. S have different responsibilities inside the hashes. Every CB doesn't possess this abilty. If that was the case, we would see all the failed CBs move to S. Why didn't Colclough move to S? There is a difference beween having good reaction with your back turned to the CB mirroring a WR than pure insticts of a S who is playing center field watching the QB and the play unfold. Instincts are a big part of what seperates a CB from S. CBs need instincts to jump routes, recognize the attack of a zone, or the ability to read a route by the WR actions. S are the LBs of the secondary. They are reading the play pre-snap dictated by alignment and motion. They are reading the play through the QB, RB, OL, after snap and then reacting if is a pass by reading the QBs eyes and the route progressions. It is harder to be a CB because some of the skills have to be God given athletic skills. The football instincts of a S are not in every CB.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Chadman,

I've watched Earl Thomas play several times. He is special. He has fantastic instincts and burst like Troy. He is a special football player and is only 20 years old. You can't teach what he has. And, he is a very polished and accomplished player for his age. Barring injury, he'll be a turnover producing ballhawk in this league. That is exactly what the Steelers need.

As far as him playing corner, you need to consider that the steelers play a lot of off man and zone. The skill set of a good FS translates well to Steelers-style corner play because their play usually involves keeping the action in front of them, reading the play, and reacting quickly. If we employed more bump and run, I'd worry that we were asking a very good safety to do things that didn't come naturally and didn't suit his skill set. But, in the case of the Steelers style corner play, Thomas would be a very good fit.

Even if Bill Belichick was getting an atomic wedgie, his face would look exactly the same.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Originally Posted by Chadman

Here's what CBS says about Thomas..

Read & React: Recognizes what's coming quickly and has the speed to get to the spot to make a play. As a safety, he was a bit overaggressive, biting on play-action and underneath routes which leaves cornerbacks on an island.

Man Coverage: Needs technique work before making the move to cornerback. Backpedal is high and slow, and lags in recovery on double moves and catching up to receivers running quick outs or square-ins. Has the speed to turn and run with receivers.

Zone Coverage: Attacks throws in front of him and has good range as a safety. Can make the interception or a big hit to separate the man from the ball. Makes quarterbacks pay for late throws over the middle, baiting them into making poor decisions. Excellent hand-eye coordination.

Closing/Recovery: Very good burst and closing speed to the ball. Wins most battles for the ball in the air. Slow to plant and drive in coverage but can close when the play is in front of him. Recovers from false steps to get back to receivers.

Run Support: Willing to support the run. Flies into the action at full speed, pounding backs in the open field. Will overpursue and fail to break down, missing tackles. Will struggle to get off receiver or lineman blocks.
Tackling: Inconsistent as a tackler in space despite good statistics. Larger receivers and tough running backs run through his tackles in space. Ends up riding big receivers for a few yards before bringing them down. A special teams force in college and will be used there in the pros.

You should post everything. Here is more that CBS had to say...If you want to use them as the standard.
Latest News
03/19/2010 - TOP RATED NFL DRAFT SCOUT CORNERBACKS: *Earl Thomas, Texas, 5-10, 208, 1: He entered the draft as a redshirt sophomore after setting a school record with eight interceptions last season while playing safety. He then bulked up from his college weight of 195 pounds to 208 at the combine, possibly in response to concerns voiced by scouts about his ability to hold up at the next level, where he might project better as a cornerback. "The extra weight helps if I'm going to be in the box banging heads out there," Thomas says of the prospect of remaining at safety. He was a ballhawking center fielder, leading the nation with 24 passes broken up last year and collecting 143 tackles since 2008. He has the speed, instincts and attitude to play safety, but also owns the hips, man-to-man skills and ability to high-point balls in flight that could make him a formidable corner. But his college career wasn't perfect. He was the victim when Texas Tech's Michael Crabtree made the game-winning catch against Texas in 2008, and he missed several tackles in the BCS title game loss to Alabama. - Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange, NFLDraftScout.com/CBS Sports/USA TODAY

We can go on forever with the arguments. Regardless of where the Steelers see him, he still is a 1st round talent at S. It is still a position of need for the Steelers. He can always play there if he can't play at CB. I think the CB move will prolong his career and he will be a playmaker in the Steeler scheme at CB. If he was going to be a bump & run CB with his back to the QB all the time....I would not be in support of the move. The thought of Polamalu & Thomas on the hashes reading the QB's eyes with Harison, Woodley, & Timmons rushing has me excited if he was picked by the Steelers. The QB better not hang the ball and be on target!

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Let me help settle the debate. CJ Spiller at #18. There is absolutely no argument that he is special and they is no discussion about whether he can convert to other positions. As a matter of fact he can fill three roles from Day 1. Hope that helps.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Sooooo,......draft an undersized poor tackling player (Thomas) in the top half of the first round to play a position that he has never played (CB),...and expect him to excel at said position at the PROFESSIONAL level ?

Hey,..that has worked out so very well for us with Huey Timmons,...why not !

In all seriousness though,....."position flexibilty" usually denotes that a guy is a jack of a few trades whom is a master of none.

Bottom line,..if the F/O is looking for a CB in the first,....they should in fact draft someone whom not only ACTUALLY played the position, but was exceptionally productive at said position against their collegiate peers.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

I say leave Thomas at free safety. Terrific safety play is a must in today's NFL. I think the entire defense will be better with improvement in the play of the safeties. I have my doubts about whether Thomas will even be there at 18.

The Steelers’ went through seven consecutive drafts (2003-09) without taking an offensive lineman in the first two rounds, the longest such streak by any franchise this century.

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Re: Steelers Fever Mock Draft: we take CB/FS Earl Thomas

Originally Posted by steelblood

Chadman,

I've watched Earl Thomas play several times. He is special. He has fantastic instincts and burst like Troy. He is a special football player and is only 20 years old. You can't teach what he has. And, he is a very polished and accomplished player for his age. Barring injury, he'll be a turnover producing ballhawk in this league. That is exactly what the Steelers need.

As far as him playing corner, you need to consider that the steelers play a lot of off man and zone. The skill set of a good FS translates well to Steelers-style corner play because their play usually involves keeping the action in front of them, reading the play, and reacting quickly. If we employed more bump and run, I'd worry that we were asking a very good safety to do things that didn't come naturally and didn't suit his skill set. But, in the case of the Steelers style corner play, Thomas would be a very good fit.

This point about Thomas' skill set meshing well with what the Steelers ask their CB's to do (give a cushion and keep the action in front of you), is the best that I have read on here so far. I think if we draft Thomas, the idea will be for him to be the free safety of the future (which would ultimately be the best fit for him...him and Troy back there together would be a sight to behold), but with Ryan Clark now re-signed and Will Allen added, that is not our biggest immediate need. With his positional flexibility, though, in the the interest of putting the best four DB's on the field at the same time, Thomas would likely start his Steeler career competing with the likes of Gay, Burnett, and Lewis for the #2 starting CB spot (and if not, a spot in the nickel or dime defense as a rookie). If we know one thing about Tomlin, it's that he loves positional flexibility, meaning that Earl Thomas will be a major consideration should he be available at #18.